# Best Flashlight for Firemen....



## cqbdude (Mar 5, 2007)

Im a member of a Volunteer Dept. and the city gave us permission to train on 3 houses that are going to be demolished .

One of the excercise was to do a search in a smoked filled house .
Of course being a flashaholic , decided to try my flashlights to see if they will help.






The smoke was really thick, but what the heck, I have a Quad Cree Mag that might be up to the challenge....





Ok, maybe not...





Definitely not, the flashlight didnt really help beyond 3 feet..it was really scary..






I even took a video inside , but I need to find a place to host it...

Anyways, any solutions?? Maybe do a mod on a mag to make it work in smoke filled house...

Thanks...


----------



## supes (Mar 5, 2007)

Cool pics. I suggest something powerful that is an incandescent because LEDs can't cut through smoke and fog as well as the yellow light. But even with a lot of light, its going to be hard to cut through that amount of smoke. Maybe Surefire M6?  Or ROP high?

BTW, you can host the video on www.youtube.com? or www.photobucket.com?


----------



## Tjin (Mar 5, 2007)

Mine experians with white led's are that they don't work in smoke. The whiteness causes the light to reflect on the smoke. Causing a beam that is very visible, but doens't show me whats behind the smoke. 

A good old, incan with moderate output seems to work best. Pelican makes good ones, which also has a ATEX certification (explosion safe, gives you a safer feeling when the LEL meter starts peeping and flashling)


----------



## cqbdude (Mar 5, 2007)

I even tried my Magcharger with a FiveMega battery Mod , I think it boosted the voltage to 7.2 volts and it didnt really do any better...


----------



## Timson (Mar 5, 2007)

Nice shots......... 

We used to have to do enclosed compartment firefighting as part of our training when I was in the Navy. 
In my experience when dealing with a truly smoke filled room - the only use for a personal flashlight would be so that you could tell that the person holding it was standing directly next to you.

If you could actually make that person out you would be within touching distance of them anyway !

A powerful flashlight just lights up the smoke and makes things worse...Think putting your high beams on in the car when driving in fog.

Your brain gets even more confused when it thinks it should be able to see and it can't...Best bet is to close your eyes and go by sense of touch....Seriously.


Tim


----------



## Lobo (Mar 5, 2007)

Tjin said:


> Mine experians with white led's are that they don't work in smoke. The whiteness causes the light to reflect on the smoke. Causing a beam that is very visible, but doens't show me whats behind the smoke.


 
This is my experience also, but oddly enough, Streamlight Survivor LED (and I'm not aware of a incan version) is geared to firefighters and to cut through smoke, fog etc. Dont know why they didnt use an incan, or if there's a way to make LEDs to actually cut through smoke and fog.


----------



## roadie (Mar 5, 2007)

basically, u need to find a waterproof, metal housing, capable of high beam (more than 200 lumens) light .......

worse to worse, u can always get a modamag here .......


----------



## Lobo (Mar 5, 2007)

Dont think a metal light is ideal for a firefighter...


----------



## ghostguy6 (Mar 5, 2007)

Pelican lights are engineered more towards industial applications. The local fire department here uses stealth lights mounted to their helmets and carry Big D's (3850). I have a M8 8030 that I sometimes carry when im working in a bar that has a smoke machine running and it cuts through the smoke pretty good. StealthLite™ 2400 Photoluminescent (http://pelican.com/lights_detail.php?recordID=2400PL) might be a great choice for you as it has a glow in the dark shroud around the head so you can see it even when the light isnt on, it uses AA sized batteries and is fairly bright.


----------



## cqbdude (Mar 5, 2007)

I have a pelican that I forgot to bring, so I didnt get to try it out. I have been checking out the Pelican website as well for the other models, but I would love to build one for this type of application...


----------



## beezaur (Mar 5, 2007)

I did some experiments with visibility through smoke a while back. I put some smoldering material at one end of a small pipe and looked through it at a target past the other end,

White light, whether from a bulb or an LED, was really bad.

A flashlight with a red LED (LuxIII) was only "pretty bad." I have since gotten a couple of lights made with amber LuxIIIs, and tried them in thick fog. They are a little better, since you eyes are more sensitive to amber, but still pretty bad.

The problem with all of them was backscatter. Wavelength helps some (amber being best) but they all produced a lot of backscatter.

I think it is the beam tightness than the wavelength that makes the most difference. It helps a lot to get the light "off axis" to reduce the backscatter.

The best luck I have had cutting through smoke or fog is to get a very narrow beam and hold it as far from my eyes as possible.

Scott


----------



## CLHC (Mar 5, 2007)

As *ghostguy6* mentioned above regarding the Pelican BIG D, there's also the Pelican BIG ED and the Survivor to take a look at.

Hope you find what you're looking for and Enjoy!


----------



## JohnK (Mar 5, 2007)

I've got a lot of fire fighter friends.

I have loaned a BUNCH of lights to them.

Conclusion: LEDs bluish light "scatters" too much. Yellowish incandescents do better.

A lot of "spill" is bad ! Even a large corona is not good.

The most liked light was a 2C Mag I had modded to take 3/CR123s, and with a very tight focus. 

One fire fighter said it was the best he had ever seen.

BUT: the dept wouldn't buy them batteries for the lights.


----------



## carbine15 (Mar 5, 2007)

Firefighters need a plastic housing (so they dont get burned picking up a dropped light) around a white laser. More throw, no spill to penetrate the smoke. Color of the light probably doesnt matter so much but a yellow beam is less likely to be reflected off the smoke than a smoke colored light. I imagine that if all the smoke was yellow that this would not hold true.


----------



## cqbdude (Mar 5, 2007)

I guess I will have to try one of them Seoul P4 emitter and put them on a Mag....

I had a Mag with quad cree that didnt workout too well..


----------



## coontai (Mar 5, 2007)

People only use the big ed and survivor at my station. I have heard no complaints except when they have to buy a new battery and there are only NICADS availiable...


----------



## benchmade_boy (Mar 5, 2007)

hey that looks like my old house!

J/K:lolsign:


----------



## cqbdude (Mar 5, 2007)

benchmade_boy said:


> hey that looks like my old house!
> 
> J/K:lolsign:


 
it was your house....LOL...


----------



## cqbdude (Mar 5, 2007)

Thank You all for recommending the Pelican lights...there are a few in my group that carries the Big Ed and the smaller lights..

Im hoping to see if I can build something mo better......you know...mod something...


----------



## jumpstat (Mar 5, 2007)

Interesting. Would other coloured led fare better? like infrared or blue, green etc. Maybe a test with high incan, hid etc. Probably flooder better suited than a thrower.......God forbid if there is an emergency like the above, at least some preparations are in order. Thanks for the insight....


----------



## benchmade_boy (Mar 5, 2007)

jumpstat said:


> Interesting. Would other coloured led fare better? like infrared or blue, green etc.


you can not see infared with the naked eye, althrough if they had NV you may be able to see through smoke as i know you can see through fog, BUT you would be blind once you saw the flame:duck:, and you dont really have much depth preception. you may be better off with a :candle:


----------



## cqbdude (Mar 5, 2007)

Yes...basically all of my high end flashlights and even all of my very bright ones are useless when Im in a smoke filled house...or building... 

Well maybe they will be able to find my dead body , since my Cree flashlight will still be working because its efficient ..


----------



## benchmade_boy (Mar 5, 2007)

do you have glo-toob FX? or what kind of beekon do you use?


----------



## davenlei (Mar 5, 2007)

I have a Mag that I put a SSC in and it did creat a much tighter and brighter hotspot that the Lux that was on the MAGLED drop in. It does throw better and tighter but it is also a very white beam that may reflect off of the smoke more.


----------



## Campdavid (Mar 5, 2007)

Streamlight Survivor Incan....it's the way to go! My brother is a sales rep for a company that specializes in equipment for Fire Fighters and Police etc. The SL Survivor is the most popular and highest rated!


----------



## kanarie (Mar 5, 2007)

Impressive,
Made me to rethink my escape plan in case of fire/smoke
anyone knows if another color or UV or IR changes the limited view in smoke?


----------



## not2bright (Mar 5, 2007)

Why doesn't a company make a light with selectable white, amber, and red/orange emitters?

It seems that there could be a nice market in the firefighting industry.


----------



## carbine15 (Mar 5, 2007)

kanarie said:


> Impressive,
> Made me to rethink my escape plan in case of fire/smoke
> anyone knows if another color or UV or IR changes the limited view in smoke?


If you're in a fire in your own house, even with all the smoke and darkness, you should be able to get out just by memory without a light. The trouble will be when you go back in to save all your precious gems you've been collecting over the years and get overtaken by the smoke. 

Your best bet is to get your naked butt out the door and watch the flames from a neighbor's house. Firefighters don't know your house, so they are the ones that need to penetrate the smoke to navigate and find you clutching your flashlights in the fetal position crying about lost lumens.


----------



## cedarcreek (Mar 6, 2007)

I'm certainly no expert here, but the first light that comes to my mind is a Pelican 3C Sabrelight: http://pelican.com/lights_detail.php?recordID=2000

Where some lights have an orange peel reflector to soften the beam and make it a little more floody, these have a (prefocused) lamp potted in a precise smooth reflector, and while it does have some small amount of flood, the main beam is all throw. It's the closest thing I've seen to a white laser beam pattern (mentioned above). Of all the lights I have, if it were smoky, this is the one I'd reach for. I've seen them for $21 or $28 in quantity one, and you have to use alkalines (3 C batteries) for all the safety ratings to be valid.

CPF seems to have a lot of Surefire fanatics. I own one Surefire (soon to be 2) and about 10 Pelicans. This is the second "Pelican Advertisement" post I've made (out of a very small number), and I need to say I have no financial interest in Pelican. Having said that, I'd also like to...

...Point to a video on their website (again). It's either "What makes a flashlight safe?" or "Safety Approvals" on this page: http://pelican.com/media/videos/index.php In the video the guy beats this flashlight against the floor. Pretty hard, too. 

On one hand this is futile. Some days the smoke is going to be too thick for any light to help you, and your only choice is going to be to feel your way out. But on the other hand, the smoke isn't always that bad, and testing a few lights in it will almost certainly be a good use of your time.


----------



## jumpstat (Mar 6, 2007)

benchmade_boy said:


> you can not see infared with the naked eye, althrough if they had NV you may be able to see through smoke as i know you can see through fog, BUT you would be blind once you saw the flame:duck:, and you dont really have much depth preception. you may be better off with a :candle:


Yeah, you are right. We go in to help in the end got fried and blind as well......


----------



## clipse (Mar 6, 2007)

I've got a Streamlight Propolymer 4AA Lux on my helmet and usually have a Streamlight Survivor (LED) clipped to my gear when we leave. Both work wonderfully. Very tight beam with minimal spill. 

clipse


----------



## walkabout (Mar 6, 2007)

I don't pretend to be an expert, but here's something to consider:

Firefighters deal with a lot more than smoke. There's spilled gasoline from car crashes, hydrogen from cracked car batteries, natural gas leaks, and in fact every industrial chemical known to man (... reactive, oxidizing, flammable, explosive, toxic ...).

I would guess that a firefighter's flashlight should be UL listed for hazardous/flammable atmospheres, the same listing required for industrial sites such as refineries and chemical plants.

That probably rules out metal-bodied lights entirely.


----------



## Shreklight (Mar 6, 2007)

We have Koeheler lights on our trucks and they're okay, the run time is bad, because the batteries are like 6 yrs. old, and it's never " in the budget to replace the battery packs on 60 or so flashlights". So anyway, I bought my own Streamlight Survivor LED, it throws a tight white beam which does pretty well, unless it is very heavy smoke, or you have already opened the nozzle and are making alot of steam, then you do get alot of reflection off the steam, and lose alot of your beam. We had a 3 room job that had flashed maybe two weeks ago and my captain knowing I'm a " flashlight guy" as he puts it, commented on how he could see my beam reaching further than his, and he was in front of me. Side note, ALWAYS have a backup light on you.


----------



## Mike Painter (Mar 6, 2007)

In any situation where there is smoke or fog, the best way to hold the light is, as somebody mentioned, is away from your body. That minimizes the light that is reflected back to your eyes and you *will* be able to see better.

In smoke or fog, you should pretend your light is a foglight and hold it as low as possible because there will be less material there to block the outgoing light.

I hope you were not allowed to use the light while you actually trained. Sooner or later if you are in a larger department you will encounter a situation where no amount of light will help and it may hinder you.
We have lights that clip to our coats and are held by velcro. In a crawling situation the velcro can be undone and the light flops down so it still shines in front of us.
It's a handy light but my new cree is brighter and when used against my "old" Mod a mag with three LEDs it dissappears when I light something up on high.


----------



## cqbdude (Mar 6, 2007)

Here is a crappy video I took , using my Fenix P1D CE when the smoke was a little less thick...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uNh6-dmZEis


----------



## carbine15 (Mar 6, 2007)

cqbdude said:


> Here is a crappy video I took , using my Fenix P1D CE when the smoke was a little less thick...
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uNh6-dmZEis



This is a private video. If you have been sent this video, please make sure you accept the sender's friend request.


----------



## woodrow (Mar 7, 2007)

I am not a firefighter, but the other week when I was foolish enough to post my survivorLED in the B/S/T section, A firefighter asked about buying it. He said his department had good luck with them.


----------



## gadget_lover (Mar 7, 2007)

I'll let the beam shot for the pelican 2010 or 2410 speak for itself.








There is no side spill. The yellow light is from the overhead 100 watt incan. The beam is all hotspot. I seem to recall that was an 18 inch hotspot at 20 feet. 

The light is rated for hazerdous environments and runs on 3 C cells.

Daniel


----------



## cqbdude (Mar 7, 2007)

Here is the crappy video....lets try it again..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uNh6-dmZEis


----------



## CLHC (Mar 7, 2007)

Interesting. Now I knows what those who fight fires are talking about. I wonder about the thick "black" smoke filled rooms and how any particular light fairs at all. . .


----------



## nethiker (Mar 7, 2007)

I'm on a small rural dept. with few opportunities to do interior attack. That said, we generally make entry after ventilating the house and almost never enter an entirely smoke filled room. It's usually clearer and much cooler down low where you are for your search. 

I carry a surefire U2 as my personal light. I have a traffic cone for the bezel that sees a fair amount of use and I can dial it down low for up close work and turn it up to make out rural address numbers. I would not take it interior. I stick with my Streamlight on the helmut and a clip-on for my coat. I don't have a hand free to carry another light.


----------



## Timson (Mar 7, 2007)

The video illustrates a point very effectively.

Even in a relatively open environment with reasonable ambient light and relatively light smoke, navigation is difficult.....


The environments I spoke of were - Zero natural light, totally enclosed, thick black smoke from diesel/oil fires, temperatures of 700 - 900F, steam/water spray, lots of noise, very scary.
In that environment - forget a flashlight !


Utter respect to firefighters - Very special people. :rock: 


Tim.


----------



## pec50 (Mar 7, 2007)

Did some burn house testing last year and found that the narrow beams were the most effective for cutting haze. The SL Survivor LED was not available at the time, but I found the UK Fire Eled helmet mount to be reasonably effective. Dense smoke was impossible for everything other than the infrared imaging camera and I look forward to the time when we have these as a common use HUD.


----------



## clipse (Mar 7, 2007)

pec50 said:


> Did some burn house testing last year and found that the narrow beams were the most effective for cutting haze. The SL Survivor LED was not available at the time, but I found the UK Fire Eled helmet mount to be reasonably effective. Dense smoke was impossible for everything other than the infrared imaging camera and I look forward to the time when we have these as a common use HUD.



We have two themal imaging camera's and they rock.


----------



## leprechaun414 (Mar 8, 2007)

I have to agree with clipse. I have the same lights that he mentioned on my gear. I had a K Brightstar that was great but changed over to SL for their LEDs.
I think the best light for a fireman should be usefull for a range of uses. I think of the lights I use for Structure Fires, Rescue accidents, Marine rescues, Traffic, community assistance and yes you gotta have them just for fun. Anyone who has ever been in a live burn knows NO light goes through smoke unless its a light smoke condition.


----------



## Gnufsh (Mar 8, 2007)

I've got a Survivor LED, and it does fairly well at smoke cutting (relative to other lights, with heavy enough smoke you won't see anything). In moderate smoke at training burns, it did at least as well as a SL litebox (alhough the spot was a bit smaller). The only issue was that it seemed to scatter more in steam because it had more blue in it (shorter wavelengths scatter easier). I replaced the LED with a SSC P4, and now it has much better throw and a nice warm tint (V0). I haven't tried it in a live burn yet (and our department gets very few actual fires). The right angle format is definately good for a firefighter, and the long runtime is great as well. My 3C pelican sabrelight just doms too fast.


----------

