# Dare to compare? Ra Clicky vs. McGizmo Haiku



## JWRitchie76 (Jul 20, 2010)

I own a couple Clickies but I've never owned a McGizmo. I think we all (current and previous Clicky owners) can agree that the HDS/Ra Clicky is about as good as it gets for a versatile EDC light but I'm curious where and how the Haiku stacks up to the Ra? So anyone who has or does own both would you care to chime in? How would you compare the two lights to each other? What models do you own to make the comparison? This isn't a post meant to claim one is "better" than the other. I only want to see what the differences are and where each fits into a EDC rotation if someone "ME" were looking to own both. BTW pictures of the two together are a welcome asset in this comparison! :thumbsup:


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## :)> (Jul 20, 2010)

For me, the Clicky wins except in the pride of ownership and the aesthetic areas. 

I highly recommend McGizmo's lights because there are few lights that have the kind of appeal that his light do... maybe Data's titanium Spy's. 

If you are looking for a competitor to the Clicky or as it is now known as the HDS EDC Executive, I don't think that you will find its equal in terms of performance and ruggedness. If you are looking for a light that will give you pride of ownership like few others and top notch performance to boot, Don's lights will not let you down.

I highly recommend that you drop one of Don's lights in your pocket and see what you think for yourself... there is a reason that they are so highly sought after and why people still pay heavy premiums for lights that he is no longer producing... but you have to own one to understand.

Good luck.


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## carrot (Jul 20, 2010)

To me the Clicky represents a wonderful light and certainly one I'd be happy to carry if I did not own a McGizmo. However, I would always pick a McGizmo over a Clicky for several reasons, and you shouldn't believe for a moment that I'm exaggerating... these opinions come from nearly half a decade of McGizmo EDC:

+ Don's pocket clip is the best in the world, in both retention, carry comfort and ergonomics
+ Don's reflectors are the best in the world, the smoothest and most balanced
+ KISS (keep it simple, ) UI
+ perfect ergonomics for comfortable use over both short and long periods

HDS and McGizmo tie for me in several areas:
= durability... while HDS is unquestionably designed to be durable, the McGizmo certainly holds its own, I would claim them to be more so than Surefire thanks to thick body walls and titanium construction
= output... neither claim to be the brightest, but both are sufficiently bright
= converters... Don always picks some of the best converters in the business to use in his lights... Henry MAKES some of the best converters in the business to use in his lights

McGizmo fails in some areas:
- expensive 
- limited, so may be hard to replace
- theoretically less versatility (but honestly two or three modes have always been enough for me)

My latest, most comprehensive opinion on McGizmo lights is here: https://www.candlepowerforums.com/posts/3352457&postcount=155

As far as I'm concerned, a McGizmo is the best EDC money can buy.

As far as the Spy007 is concerned... add a pocket clip and perhaps even better water resistance and maybe it can contest McGizmo for my pockets. No offense to Data of course, whom I respect most highly out of anyone I've ever met.


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## Henk_Lu (Jul 21, 2010)

Carrot's post is quite complete... :thumbsup:

For me, the Clicky has one big advantage, it's psychological however : I dare put the Clicky in my pocket and take it out. I can't help it, but the McGizmo are still jewel lights for me, whatever Don says, he's right, they are users, they can take it. The same applies to the Clicky Titanium btw, the initial idea was to stick it in my pocket, but once I had it and cherished it, the 170Cn was still taken... :shrug:

You should definetely get a McGizmo, how about a Haiku, and see for yourself. The Clicky and the Haiku are both universal lights, perfect EDC. Take the Clicky to work and the Haiku to where it doesn't get that tough! :wave:


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## carrot (Jul 21, 2010)

Hey Henk_Lu, ever seen my scraped up PD-S?


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## jblackwood (Jul 21, 2010)

I have two Lunasol 20s and one RA Clicky high CRI as well as an 85Tr RA Twisty (the one with the red low). Strangely enough, I got the RA Twisty and the Lunasol right at the end of their availability through non-CPFMP channels. I haven't regretted either purchase and I carry my Lunasol every day. 

My vote is for the Lunasol 20, or for McGizmo lights in general. In my case, there's just no substitute for the incredibly wide low which can only be created by the three LEDs and the shallow part of the reflector which comes into play in low mode. Sure the high CRI Clicky was more useful when we had to choose new carpet for our rental and the showroom had horrible lighting (they replaced spot lights that were 25 feet up with non-reflector spiral eco lights . . . ugh!!!!), but that's the only time I've really HAD to bring the clicky along because it did something the Lunasol couldn't. Sometimes I switch them up for kicks, but that's not too often and even in the aforementioned situtation, the beam profile wasn't even enough to get a GREAT sense of color for the task. 

That being said, I'm currently waiting for Henry to hit the 200 lumen mark on a regular basis. Yes, I know some of you have some HDS lights that are rated 200 lumens, bully for you. I've never been quick enough to snag one myself, though. When he does, I'll be getting one with a clip. It's not as nice as the McGizmo clip (heya Carrot!), but much better than the half constrictor knot I was using. :huh:


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## jblackwood (Jul 21, 2010)

Oh yes, both my HDS lights have blemishes in the incredibly hard anodizing (don't ask) and as a result, I have to make sure those bare Al parts don't stay too wet for too long. That's the nice thing about Don's Ti lights. They may cost more up front, but the upkeep is much less since you can't oxidize Ti outside of a special chemical bath and some electrical current, if you have either of those things laying about the house. 

Again, a little rust isn't going to keep the HDS lights from working, but I carry my EDCs in my pocket . . . and I don't want rust stains on my pants! :thumbsup:


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## PoliceScannerMan (Jul 21, 2010)

If you want a low low, go with Ra. If you wanna pick up chicks go with the McGizmo. 

Really, cant go wrong here...


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## notsofast (Jul 21, 2010)

PoliceScannerMan said:


> If you want a low low, go with Ra. If you wanna pick up chicks go with the McGizmo.
> 
> Really, cant go wrong here...



MAN I am off the fence on a McGizmo now!


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## jimmy1970 (Jul 21, 2010)

I like McGizmos - show me yours.....


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## fisk-king (Jul 21, 2010)

Post #3 pretty much summed it up but personally the Ra has a very slight edge. I own 2 Mcgizmo lights & 1 "Clicky" which I do not plan to get rid of because I love them so much. In a way it's kinda unfair to compare the two. They are both 2 different breed of animals and both excel in their own niche:shrug:.

Now if they could combine forces for a limited collaboration light:thinking:


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## higbvuyb (Jul 21, 2010)

jblackwood said:


> Oh yes, both my HDS lights have blemishes in the incredibly hard anodizing (don't ask) and as a result, I have to make sure those bare Al parts don't stay too wet for too long. That's the nice thing about Don's Ti lights. They may cost more up front, but the upkeep is much less since you can't oxidize Ti outside of a special chemical bath and some electrical current, if you have either of those things laying about the house.


AFAIK aluminium forms a relatively strong oxide coating that prevents further oxidation rather than rusting in flakes that peel off like iron does.
Hence, you don't need to worry about aluminium getting wet.


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## BigHonu (Jul 21, 2010)

PoliceScannerMan said:


> If you want a low low, go with Ra. If you wanna pick up chicks go with the McGizmo.
> 
> Really, cant go wrong here...




That was pretty funny!


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## kaichu dento (Jul 22, 2010)

I had both a Haiku and Sundrop for a short period and was immediately staggered by their perfection, but was not able to fall in love with them.

This will always be a personal preference comparison and I can see how the Haiku would in my estimation be the absolutely best light for many not needing an extremely low level. However, there's another place the Clicky has me which has to do with one of my most important choosing points (just made that up!), and that is the smoother edges on the outside of the flood - I like the Ra/HDS beam pattern better.

I may have another McGizmo light in the future, but I'll never sell my Ti Clicky!


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## Henk_Lu (Jul 22, 2010)

carrot said:


> Hey Henk_Lu, ever seen my scraped up PD-S?



Yep, I have actually seen it. The living proof that the McGizmos can take it hard, I read other stories of well-used ones, that's why I say it's psychological... :candle:

Best part is, if you have the necessary tools and the skills, you can bring it back to a near original state! :thumbsup:


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## stoli67 (Oct 7, 2010)

My haiku xp-G Warm arrived today. I have an RA clicky CRI and am waiting on a Titanium one to arrive ....


Now it just needs to get dark!


Andrew


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## Belstaff1464 (Oct 7, 2010)

For me the versatility of the Clicky makes it the best EDC. I can appreciate the craftsmanship that has gone into the Haiku, but the range and "customability" of the Clicky makes it more useful. What other light out there will allow me to turn the light on at 0.07 lumens so that I don't blind myself on those late night bathroom trips, have another 3 levels customizable up to 170lumens, and has a tactical strobe to deter angry dogs when I go for a jog ? I have no idea what the low of the Haiku is rated at, but I imagine it would still be too bright for my needs. The low low of the Clicky is my most used level. 

The Clicky is the light for most situations and makes it the 2nd most perfect EDC. The most perfect EDC would be the Ti Clicky in the AlTiN coating !!!!


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## Bass (Oct 7, 2010)

carrots post #3 sums it up really. 

Both are great lights but IMO Don's lights take it.

One thing with Don is that his lights tend to be 'niche' - UV, high CRI, Ti etc and he is always pushing the envelope on new designs and function. I really like that. This makes McGizmos that better lights IMO.


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## leukos (Oct 7, 2010)

Mechanical engineering award goes to Don (McGizmo).

Electrical engineering award goes to Henry (HDS/Ra).


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## wacbzz (Oct 7, 2010)

I don't own a McGizmo light, but I am the proud owner of an HDS Clicky as well as the past owner of an Ra Twisty and the future owner of a high CRI Clicky. So, as to whether my opinion counts is surely up for judgement.

But I just want to contribute this...

I purchased my Twisty because of this photo alone. Sure, I did the research about the light itself, but that photo is what put me over the edge. Now, like an idiot, I traded that Twisty for a SF L1 that I soon sold in the Marketplace and I've tried to get that original Twisty back, but to no avail.

I have carried my Clicky with me every day since I bought it and now have a high CRI on the way.

FOR ME, the fact that I can essentially do whatever the heck I want to this light and know what the end result will be is what keeps it in my pocket every day.

FOR ME, even thinking about throwing a titanium light up in the air 20 times and letting it hit the pavement simply makes me cringe. Doing that with my Clicky? Old hat. I did that very thing with my Twisty when I was showing a salesman at work how bombproof the light actually was. The resulting scratches and dinged bezel served as a reminder as to what that light was capable of.

There is NO doubt in my mind whatsoever that any McGizmo light is totally and completely capable of having the same thing done to it - and coming out still working perfectly. And though there are some that have posted here that their McGizmo's are less than shelf queens, I have large amounts of doubt that anybody simply takes their $400+ flashlight and throws it up on the air on many occassions to prove to anybody that their light is bombproof. Why? Simply because of the cost.

Sure, there are many that carry their McGizmo's every single day. They would have nothing else in their pocket. But they also wouldn't throw that $400 thing of beauty against the wall - just because. 

I would, and have done so with both my Twisty and my Clicky. 

And that alone is why the Ra/HDS light is the better light FOR ME.


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## heckboy (Oct 8, 2010)

I've got a Haiku XR-E and a Ra Clicky Tactical 140.

I grab the Haiku and Clicky at about the same frequency. Although I don't EDC either, I carry a 1xAA light every day. When I'm using them I always admire the attributes of each light.

I always admire the build of the Haiku and then at times feel like a dang fool for paying that much for a light. By the way, I do get over that feeling pretty quickly. :laughing: The Clicky is nice enough and I value the programmable nature of the light highly, but find the clip and clip mounting simply wrong.

If I were to EDC one of them I'd grab the Haiku. The strong clip is a big sell for me and I have found in an EDC light simple interfaces are my best option. Oh, and now that I know chicks dig the Haiku, it's a no brainer!

Regards,
HB


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## bmcgators98 (Oct 8, 2010)

I have been going back and forward with myself on this one. I don’t currently own a McGizmo, but I can’t stop looking at the Haiku XP-G. I currently own a couple of HDS EDC’s (170 & High CRI), 6P Malkoff Combo, and a couple of Peaks. I can’t spend all “new” dollars on this and will have to sell some things including a couple of knives. But I can’t bring myself to sell the HDS’s, but I know I can’t use both. 
So the question is, not really comparing them, but would you sell your 170 and your 6P w/ M61W to get a Haiku XP-G. Could the McGizmo exceed the expectations I have of the two other lights?


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## KarstGhost (Oct 8, 2010)

What if Henry and Don collaborated on a light?!?


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## jellydonut (Oct 8, 2010)

KarstGhost said:


> What if Henry and Don collaborated on a light?!?


It'd be dividing by zero, or like attaching a buttered toast to the back of a cat and throwing it in the air.

On the other hand if the universe *didn't* implode it would probably make for an awesome, irresistible light.:devil:


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## wacbzz (Oct 8, 2010)

KarstGhost said:


> What if Henry and Don collaborated on a light?!?


 
A HaiKlicky?

I'm all in...


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## iacchus (Oct 8, 2010)

maybe thats this new Twisty I keep hearing about.
Some mythical Ti Twisty/piston drive w/ a pocket clip, a hand ground and polished reflector, four levels, a super low low and a red low and a 400 lumen floody/throwy beam.
I'm in for two.


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## Henk_Lu (Oct 8, 2010)

KarstGhost said:


> What if Henry and Don collaborated on a light?!?



Impossible. Simply impossible. Period.

The Clicky and the Haiku are bost the best lights in their class in my humble opinion. Nevertheless, no part of the Clicky would make the Haiku better and no part of the Haiku would make the Clicky better.

What would you get if Rolls Royce and Ferrari collaborated on a car? A super sportive limousine? A super comfortable sportscar? Whatever it would be, it would be a super compromise. :shakehead


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## carrot (Oct 9, 2010)

Henk_Lu said:


> Impossible. Simply impossible. Period.
> 
> The Clicky and the Haiku are bost the best lights in their class in my humble opinion. Nevertheless, no part of the Clicky would make the Haiku better and no part of the Haiku would make the Clicky better.
> 
> What would you get if Rolls Royce and Ferrari collaborated on a car? A super sportive limousine? A super comfortable sportscar? Whatever it would be, it would be a super compromise. :shakehead


You know what? I feel exactly the same way.


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## Moka (Oct 9, 2010)

carrot said:


> You know what? I feel exactly the same way.



+1 on that... I would like to see elements of one in another... but I don't think a collaboration would work... In saying that though... Don and Henry if you're reading this... Feel free to prove me wrong... :devil::nana:

The Clicky is for my the ultimate in utility lights, it's usable in every way, built like a bomb shelter and the programmability seriously pleases the nerd in me...

I don't have a Haiku (yet) but if My Lunasol 20 and Sundrop are anything to go by I'll be amazingly happy with it... The Lunasol although being a piece of engineering art is mainly for me a user, the blueish tint to the beam on both low and high would put white wall hunters into a fit, but as an EDC I feel it's a great combination for what you may encounter every day...

I love my Clicky and still have it in my EDC rotation, wouldn't mind owning a Haiku eventually... but for now the Clicky, LS20 and Ti Iris make up the majority of my EDC rotation...


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## GregWormald (Oct 9, 2010)

I have both and *always* carry the Haiku.

If I didn't have a separate light with a low, low for the bedside table it might be a closer race, but I do! I have never felt the lack of the low, low while out, only at home.

Greg


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## palimpsest (Oct 9, 2010)

KarstGhost said:


> What if Henry and Don collaborated on a light?!?


Why ?

I don't know if it is easy to find but there is already a titanium Ra clicky for those who prefer titanium over aluminum HAIII.

The haiku looks very nice but i really like the external bearness of my Ra clicky high CRI with its awesome internal electronic. The "beauty" within the indestructible "beast".
I prefer this way than the contrary with the haiku.

If an electrical torch is multi levels to cover different needs, "something" is missing if the user is not able to choose by himself to set the levels as he prefers and needs.

If you need settings versatility, the haiku is out of competition. Ra clicky and McGizmo haiku are both pocket EDC but their respective pros and cons made them two very different torches.


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## wacbzz (Oct 9, 2010)

GregWormald said:


> I have both and *always* carry the Haiku.


 
I think the OP (and the rest of us as well ) would like to know exactly _why_ you do the above. 



JWRitchie76 said:


> ... but I'm curious where and how the Haiku stacks up to the Ra? So anyone who has or does own both would you care to chime in? How would you compare the two lights to each other? What models do you own to make the comparison? ... BTW pictures of the two together are a welcome asset in this comparison! :thumbsup:


 
Help us out with pictures if you can.


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## chanjyj (Oct 11, 2010)

"HDS Systems is the only company in the world to use a constant power regulation method to drive LEDs - we invented it."

If any, any other company said this I would regard it as fluff. But I don't believe Henry would make such claims.

A runtime test between the 2 lights would be impossible because of different emitters, and also different output settings.
If they were to use identical LEDs (assuming LED are really identical, not just same bin) and identical calibrated output settings, I have a feeling the HDS Tactical (Ra Clicky) would run longer.


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## aflashinthenight (Oct 14, 2011)

Well... So you can' t compare the McGizmo and the clicky... Pick up the Mac's Customs EDC, then. Could we say it' s a kinda balance between the HDS and the Gizmo? But with a lot more light coming out of the Mac's XM-L 2.8mA...


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## hron61 (Oct 15, 2011)

jimmy1970 said:


> I like McGizmos - show me yours.....



YIKES!!!!!!!!


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## stoli67 (Oct 15, 2011)

My contribution to this discussion.

Why do you have to pick which one of the best two lights around is better? They are each better for different things!

I love my Ti RA but rarely take it out of the house.... I will use my High CRI Clicky though

My Haiku and my PD-S I will use as EDC

In terms of the clips... the Modoolar clip is the best I think.... I find the McGizmo one a little harder to get over the edge of my jeans pocket.

Around the house and in the Kids rooms I use my RA as it has a lower low.


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## leon2245 (Oct 15, 2011)

Do either use PWM, or have parasitic drain? What about warranties, if any, with either? Similar?



leukos said:


> Mechanical engineering award goes to Don (McGizmo).
> 
> Electrical engineering award goes to Henry (HDS/Ra).



So then... HDS electronics inside a McGizmo body, switch, clip etc. (sorry if the very idea infuriates anti-collaborators)!





wacbzz said:


> I purchased my Twisty because of this photo alone. Sure, I did the research about the light itself, but that photo is what put me over the edge. Now, like an idiot, I traded that Twisty for a SF L1 that I soon sold in the Marketplace and I've tried to get that original Twisty back, but to no avail.



So I'm dying to know what "this" photo was, that sent wacbzz over the edge for one. Did anyone get a look at it, he's banned now?


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## THE_dAY (Oct 15, 2011)

leon2245 said:


> Do either use PWM, or have parasitic drain? What about warranties, if any, with either? Similar?
> 
> So then... HDS electronics inside a McGizmo body, switch, clip etc. (sorry if the very idea infuriates anti-collaborators)!
> 
> ...



The Haiku has PWM on the medium and lower levels. 
From my reading, the HDS does not use PWM

The pic you're looking for I think is of the HDS light nicknamed "Pummeled" IIRC, 
http://hdssystems.com/


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## leon2245 (Oct 15, 2011)

THE_dAY said:


> The Haiku has PWM on the medium and lower levels.
> From my reading, the HDS does not use PWM
> 
> The pic you're looking for I think is of the HDS light nicknamed "Pummeled" IIRC,
> http://hdssystems.com/



Thanks for the info.

Yeah that must have been the pic, because he was excited about throwing his against concrete. These torture tests make me cringe, but good that someone does them I guess. We can now be confident they'll hold up to "normal" abuse.


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## pjandyho (Oct 15, 2011)

leon2245 said:


> So I'm dying to know what "this" photo was, that sent wacbzz over the edge for one. Did anyone get a look at it, he's banned now?


It is the abused clicky on HDS Systems' website. It's on the front page. Go check it out.

I am a new owner of both the Haiku and the high CRI Mule. In terms of versatility, it's impossible to beat any HDS, especially so the rotary. But McGizmo lights are just entirely different. Beautifully crafted, and feels nice in the hand. I have to admit, when I first received the McGizmos, I cursed myself for having paid such high prices for these lights. Where's the 0.07 or 0.08 lumen low? Also, the Haiku XM-L doesn't seem as bright as my HDS rotary on the highest end. Only 3 levels and not programmable? And to make matters worst, the light memorizes the last output used which makes it impossible to predict what level it would come on in unless I have a superb memory.

But, a big BUT, McGizmo lights just seem to grow on me by the day. Although I still love my HDS lights, I find myself falling in love with the Haiku and Mule. The Mule high CRI has such wonderfully smooth and artifact free beam it is just impossible not to love a Mule. Do I still regret buying the McGizmos now? Not at all. In fact, whenever I look at the Haiku and Mule and look at the other lights in my possession, I can't help feeling that it is so hard to ever go back to using those lights again if they are not a McGizmo (with the exception of a HDS).


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## JWRitchie76 (Oct 15, 2011)

After posting this question and much gnashing I ended up getting a McGizmo warm Haiku some time back. Man am I ever glad I did! Put it this way, at the time I bought my Haiku I had 3 Ra/HDS lights and had owned 5 up to that point. People say that McGizmo is just expensive art but IMO I sold all the HDS and will never sell the Haiku. Expensive? Yes but in the long run so good it has literally saved me money because a light would have to be markedly better for me to purchase. It is bar none the toughest light I've ever owned. Regardless of price I use it everyday in any environment. For me the 3 levels Don has chosen for output are perfect and the UI is K.I.S.S. The McGizmo McClicky is an absolute joy to operate and IMO there is no better clicky button available on a flashlight. One of the big reasons I also use Malkoff MD bodies as well. In the end the Haiku for me won out. Simply put, for my use it was and still is the better overall flashlight for EDC in both design, functionality and reliability.

Ahh yes....a couple old shots!
















I love this pic! Should have never sold that 85TR!


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## pjandyho (Oct 15, 2011)

JWRitchie76 said:


> The McGizmo McClicky is an absolute joy to operate and IMO there is no better clicky button available on a flashlight. One of the big reasons I also use Malkoff MD bodies as well.



For me, it was the Malkoff MD2 that got me falling in love with the McClicky switch. That was what got me to research on McGizmo lights. Didn't think I would be buying one but nbp's user review really pushed me over the edge. Just got to love my McGizmos.


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## chanjyj (Oct 15, 2011)

pjandyho said:


> For me, it was the Malkoff MD2 that got me falling in love with the McClicky switch. That was what got me to research on McGizmo lights. Didn't think I would be buying one but nbp's user review really pushed me over the edge. Just got to love my McGizmos.



And now you make me tempted :duh2:
Nevermind. I shall be happy with my LX2 & 170T rotation (actually the LX2 gets more use).


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## pjandyho (Oct 15, 2011)

chanjyj said:


> And now you make me tempted :duh2:
> Nevermind. I shall be happy with my LX2 & 170T rotation (actually the LX2 gets more use).


If you are in search of output, McGizmo lights are not for you. But if you are in search of a functional, tough and reliable light, this is it. Get a Haiku if this is what you need. And I know you are particular on whether a light is capable of preventing water ingress. Although Don will not warranty against water ingress if you take it diving, his own lights have gone under the sea on his frequent snorkeling trips in the seas of Hawaii.


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## RA40 (Oct 15, 2011)

Fantastic thread! I've had a variety of lights and so far the HDS has remained a constant. Don's works have long been very appealing though I've just not been able to nudge myself off the fence. This thread certainly adds to developing more lust. What plants me is the conservative nature of my buying habits. That is where the HDS is solid. Not to $, might not be the prettiest (eye of the behold) and yet, it gives performance that is quite useable. The other is if you lose it, it is not going to make you cry over a one-off. Still Henry has some very limited ones floating about so those will be hard if lost. The HDS has that practicality to be solid for the $ spent.


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## stoli67 (Oct 15, 2011)

If you are serious about flashlights then you need at least one of each!
A warm or high CRI Haiku.... And maybe an XML 6V

And an HDS light or perhaps two.... A clicky and a rotary!


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## Shooter21 (Oct 15, 2011)

Henk_Lu said:


> Impossible. Simply impossible. Period.
> 
> The Clicky and the Haiku are bost the best lights in their class in my humble opinion. Nevertheless, no part of the Clicky would make the Haiku better and no part of the Haiku would make the Clicky better.
> 
> What would you get if Rolls Royce and Ferrari collaborated on a car? A super sportive limousine? A super comfortable sportscar? Whatever it would be, it would be a super compromise. :shakehead


i disagree if the haiku was fully customizable like the clicky then it would bring the best of both worlds into one torch.


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## kaichu dento (Oct 15, 2011)

RA40 said:


> Fantastic thread! I've had a variety of lights and so far the HDS has remained a constant. Don's works have long been very appealing though I've just not been able to nudge myself off the fence. This thread certainly adds to developing more lust. What plants me is the conservative nature of my buying habits. That is where the HDS is solid. Not to $, might not be the prettiest (eye of the behold) and yet, it gives performance that is quite useable. The other is if you lose it, it is not going to make you cry over a one-off. Still Henry has some very limited ones floating about so those will be hard if lost. The HDS has that practicality to be solid for the $ spent.


 No need to be overly tempted. There are many here who will try to convince you that McGizmo's are absolute must-have lights, but it's a totally subjective decision. Are they right that they are a must-have light? Yes, but only for themselves, not necessarily you, and that's a decision you should not feel pressured into making.
When I got my Haiku I was so excited, but fairly shortly decided I by far preferred my Clicky's.
If you like a wider beam pattern and low modes, you're probably going to be much happier with your Clicky. If you like narrower beams and don't need a low setting then the Haiku and it's medium-low, medium, high may be okay for you.
Fantastic quality, design and manufacture compared to the much more user friendly package of the Clicky. 
If you choose your partner by body parts alone, you may prefer the Haiku, but if you value the personality too, then I'd say stay with the Clicky - unless of course, the personality of the Haiku is a perfect match for you.


stoli67 said:


> If you are serious about flashlights then you need at least one of each!
> A warm or high CRI Haiku.... And maybe an XML 6V
> 
> And an HDS light or perhaps two.... A clicky and a rotary!


I can't argue too hard against this collector-mindset, but as stated above, the Haiku is just not a good match for some of us.


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## stoli67 (Oct 15, 2011)

I totally agree with the haiku not having a ver low low setting.

You can however get a haiku in so many different versions of LED.... Narrow to broad beam.

XRE. XPG... XML And high CRI


The XML will make a more floody beam! I currently have a clicky being modded to have an XML (as we all know there is no option to get one from Henry)


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## kaichu dento (Oct 15, 2011)

stoli67 said:


> I totally agree with the haiku not having a very low low setting.
> 
> You can however get a haiku in so many different versions of LED.... Narrow to broad beam.
> 
> ...


If he were to come out with an warm hCri that had a much wider throw and noticeably lower low, I'd find myself wanting one pretty quickly. Not only do I think it would draw me back to wanting one of his lights - I think it would be a big hit among those who already love his lights.


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## JWRitchie76 (Oct 15, 2011)

kaichu dento said:


> If he were to come out with an warm hCri that had a much wider throw and noticeably lower low, I'd find myself wanting one pretty quickly. Not only do I think it would draw me back to wanting one of his lights - I think it would be a big hit among those who already love his lights.



I find the low perfect personally but that's all subjective, just like if Henry offered a clip option and more LED flavors for the Rotary and Clickies I might also buy one of his lights again. Not trying to be a smart a$$ but what exactly is a "warm High CRI"?


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## kaichu dento (Oct 15, 2011)

JWRitchie76 said:


> Not trying to be a smart a$$ but what exactly is a "warm High CRI"?


Based on the atmosphere of your post it doesn't sound much like you're really very interested, but I would say 2700-3500 or so.


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## stoli67 (Oct 15, 2011)

There really is only one answer.... Get Both


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## JWRitchie76 (Oct 15, 2011)

kaichu dento said:


> Based on the atmosphere of your post it doesn't sound much like you're really very interested, but I would say 2700-3500 or so.



No I was actually being serious. I've never heard of a warm High CRI. I thought High CRI were all of the warmer nature?


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## fyrstormer (Oct 15, 2011)

I tried the Ra Clicky; it was okay, it worked well, but it didn't give me anything my Haiku didn't give me, and it didn't have a clip so it was hard to carry comfortably. I'd be interested to try the new Rotary, but since HDS decided to remove any possibility of a bezel-down clip with the Rotary design, I'll stick with my Haiku. It still does what I need and it's still easier to carry.


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## Shooter21 (Oct 15, 2011)

fyrstormer said:


> I tried the Ra Clicky; it was okay, it worked well, but it didn't give me anything my Haiku didn't give me, and it didn't have a clip so it was hard to carry comfortably. I'd be interested to try the new Rotary, but since HDS decided to remove any possibility of a bezel-down clip with the Rotary design, I'll stick with my Haiku. It still does what I need and it's still easier to carry.


if only you could customize the output of the haiku i would buy it right away. but for now i say the hds is the best


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## kaichu dento (Oct 15, 2011)

JWRitchie76 said:


> No I was actually being serious. I've never heard of a warm High CRI. I thought High CRI were all of the warmer nature?


There's been a lot on the idea that hCri has to be warm or neutral and the present crop of them is warmer, but not necessarily warm. My hCri Clicky is noticebly towards the neutral side when compared to my incan lights and I'd like to see it right there where my Scorpion is. There's also been call for cooler hCri availability and apparently there's no reason it can't happen.
Should be good for fans of all tint ranges. 

To Fyrestormer, there are plenty of clip options for Clicky's out there and if you find the Clicky to not offer anything the Haiku didn't give you, then you don't have a need for lower settings and like narrower beam patterns. Makes you a perfect Haiku customer, but it's not indicative of any superiority, which for those of us who value being able to set our own brightness levels, a much lower low, wider beam pattern and the Clicky UI places the Clicky as a more preferable light.


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## scout24 (Oct 15, 2011)

For what it's worth, there are GDUP boards available from the Sandwich Shoppe that can be custom programmed for output... down to 5ma. These fit in the Aleph can, and I'm sure one of our very capable modders could make one work in a Haiku if a low low were that important. I saw a Haiku that sold recently that went the other way, GDUP at 1400ma. on high if I recall correctly. I personally use more than one light during the day, and other than that super-low, (Ti Titan...  ) the Haiku works well for me. K.I.S.S. and all. I've had and enjoyed several Ra/HDS Clickys in the past, but keep coming back to McG's.


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## fyrstormer (Oct 15, 2011)

Shooter21 said:


> if only you could customize the output of the haiku i would buy it right away. but for now i say the hds is the best


Being able to program custom brightness levels is a nice gimmick, but it's still just a gimmick. (IMO, of course.) I've owned several lights with programmable brightness levels, and every single time I ended up programming them to minimum brightness, maximum brightness, and some brightness that looked to be about 50%. I never programmed one level to be ten lumens brighter than another level, or anything like that, because 10 lumens too bright or too dim just doesn't make a difference in any situation I've encountered. For small adjustments in brightness, I always just move the hotspot to the side or move the light closer to the thing I'm looking at. It wasn't worth the trouble to actually analyze my usage and determine exact brightnesses that would be most useful to me, which is the only scenario in which programmable brightness levels would be useful. It also can't take into account the dilation of my pupils at any given time, which will affect how bright any of the settings will appear to be.

On the other hand, if I really want to be able to specify exactly how much light I want, my needs are better served by a brightness control ring. If I want custom brightness levels, why should I settle for 3 or 4 or 5? Why not have all the brightness levels the light can produce, ready for me to use at any moment? A brightness control ring lets me do that. Even Henry of HDS said he included the old Ra Clicky interface in the new Rotary lights as a historical artifact, but that he had no idea why anyone would use it if they have a control ring they can use instead. I agree, but there's still the matter of that clip...

In summary, if I want basic multi-mode functionality, pre-programmed modes work find, and if I want customizable brightness, a control ring gives me more flexibility than any other approach. Programmable brightness modes are an outdated solution to a problem I rarely have in the first place, and the rest of the time, the 3 brightness levels on my Haiku are all the flexibility I need.


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## kaichu dento (Oct 16, 2011)

fyrstormer said:


> Being able to program custom brightness levels is a nice gimmick, but it's still just a gimmick. (IMO, of course.) I've owned several lights with programmable brightness levels, and every single time I ended up programming them to minimum brightness, maximum brightness, and some brightness that looked to be about 50%.


Then you probably never programmed a light with a proper range of available brightness levels. Try going to minimum with a Spy and you'll see nothing. The benefit of a proper set of customizable levels allows each user to select what they find to be the lowest usable level, which for some of us will most definitely be noticeably lower than for those who find the low on a Haiku to be sufficient. For me it was a medium brightness and much as I wanted to keep it, the lack of a low setting and too narrow of a beam pattern made it a frustrating possession. 
Your perfect and my perfect are not the same and when it comes down to things like food, flashlights and women it's best to let each choose their own and stop pushing ones views on others as the only educated choice.


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## fyrstormer (Oct 16, 2011)

Yes, Kaichu. I know 3 modes isn't good enough for everyone. I even said so in the second and third paragraphs.

I can achieve the amount of control you mention, using a light with a brightness control ring, and I don't have to program anything. Do I want the emitter to barely glow so I can find the light when I set it down in the dark? Done. Do I want it to blind anyone coming towards me? Done. Do I want to be able to read a map in the car without bothering the driver? Done. Every possible brightness level is available to me by twisting the control ring, which isn't true for programmable-mode lights. I can adjust the light's output to suit every situation, without having to prepare anything ahead of time.


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## kaichu dento (Oct 16, 2011)

I agree with you about the utilitarianism of a control ring, but having both styles of light, I still find myself using my Clicky more and it doesn't do to compare the ease of an automatic transmission to manual as a reason to discontinue stick shifters. 
The thing that got me the most was the assertion that programmable levels were nothing more than a gimmick, which is unjustifiably cynical and supposes that one knows what others should and should not find useful. As I pointed out, one of the reasons that some programmable UI's are not all that useful has less to do with the fact that they are programmable and more to do with the limitation of available range.
I won't go to the light that I have which has a ring control since this thread is actually supposed to be about the choice between Clicky and Haiku and your argument in support of a control ring sounds like a vote against both the lights the thread is based on. 

I stand by my opinion that both lights are excellent products. Additionally I find it a far better approach to state ones opinion, but while doing so, do it in such a manner as not to weigh in negatively on others preferences, or their reasons for them.


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## fyrstormer (Oct 16, 2011)

I said I think programmable modes is a gimmick. I did not say anything who likes programmable modes is dumb. I stated my opinion and explained why I have that opinion, and I said nothing about anyone who happens to disagree with it. Nothing I said is offensive except in the minds of people who are looking for opportunities to be offended.

This thread is a year old. I see no reason why a continuing discussion shouldn't include advances that have taken place since the thread was started. Both HDS and other brands now offer lights with brightness control rings, so I mentioned them as an option.


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## kaichu dento (Oct 16, 2011)

If you'll read my post again you'll see that nowhere did I bring the word or suggestion of it into the conversation and as such, your paraphrased defense against it was unnecessary. 
Good point about the age of the thread though, but when you state that something is nothing more than a gimmick, it brings into question not only the design parameters of anyone who would include programmability, but also their marketing strategy. Gimmicks are by definition, useless features utilized to defraud people and I see full range programmable lights as neither useless, nor designed with deceit as their main purpose.
The 007 and Clicky immediately come to mind as lights that allowed me to choose levels other than the default, making them a much better fit for my purposes. Dave and Henry continue to make their lights programmable and I surmise that most owners of Clicky's and Spy's are programming them to make a perfect fit.


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## Bullzeyebill (Oct 16, 2011)

Enough said. This thread is getting to be about you two guys. If you want to continue your baiting and biting then please go to PM's.

Bill


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## nbp (Oct 16, 2011)

Peace my McG and HDS brothers, please. :grouphug:

I carried Clickies for quite a while. Great lights. I thought that they would be the last stop on my search for the perfect EDC light. But I had a lot of problems with them electrically and that got old. I know I'm in the minority with that, but it is what it is. I no longer felt that I could trust them, I guess. I still have some HDSs and they have their place, just not as EDC lights. For me. 

Getting the Haiku was really amazing. It took a lot of things I liked about the Clicky, added some extra things I liked, and subtracted the things I didn't-namely the problems. 

Now my Haiku has been in my pocket every day for 5 months. You can click on my review in my sig if you want to know why I love it. 

The programmability of the Clicky is a great feature, but I realized I didn't need it as much as I thought I would. The simplicity and reliability, user friendliness and excellent ergonomics and design of the Haiku have proved to be more useful and functional for me.


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## nbp (Dec 20, 2011)

I had to bump this thread, as I think that I will have more to add to it at this time. 

As I noted above, I got my Haiku as a replacement for my Clickies which were not functioning properly. I have enjoyed my 6+ months with my Haiku very much. In the meantime, I haven't had my Clickies to directly compare. But now, with HDS shipping lights again, I have taken possession of two new Clickies, functional in every way as far as I can tell. It seemed appropriate for me to revisit this epic battle of two industry leading *ED**C Titans*.  It is especially appropriate, I feel, because Henry is now using the cool XP-G in the 200s, a near match to the XP-G Don is using (to my eye). So, as I have compared this new 200 to my Haiku, I feel the output and beam pattern of the two lights is nearly identical. Thus, I can completely remove that very subjective variable in the comparison, which is nice, leaving me to focus on things like ergonomics, construction, switching mechanisms, UI, etc. 

I am going to EDC the Haiku and Clicky 200 together for a few days, use them both in a variety of situations, and hopefully be able to offer some more insights to this great thread on what features of each of the lights end up being better. Doesn't mean it's necessarily better for you, but for me. That said, it may be helpful to you guys anyways. 

Ok, let's give this a try and see how it goes! :rock: Anyone else who has both is free to join in the fun.


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## pjandyho (Dec 20, 2011)

Just in time Nick. I was thinking of starting a thread talking about my experiences with my McGizmo vs my HDS when this thread came up.

I think most of you already knew by now that I have always been a fan of HDS lights, simply because I love the UI, the programmability, the electronic switch and the robustness. I fell in love with my high CRI clicky the very moment I held it in my hand because it is everything I ever wanted for an outdoors light. I too love the 170 tactical clicky for the throwy beam. Then came the rotary with the ultra simple rotating interface that makes it even nicer to use. I also love my HDS for the low low of 0.07 lumen for times when I do not want to disturb anyone in sleep, or not to blind myself for when I just woke up from sleep.

Then came McGizmo. I was curious about McGizmo lights. Have always been curious since I first heard about it many years ago but the high price to pay for one always seem to put me off. After much delay and deliberation, I finally decided to bite the bullet and order a couple for myself. I started with the high CRI Mule and XM-L Haiku. I have to admit, after all the bells and whistle I had with my HDS lights, I wasn't the least bit impressed with the McGizmos, but one thing for sure is that the beauty and blink of these McGizmos really caught my eyes. I then decided I should not derive an early conclusion and decided to EDC them for the next few days. I must say that the more I EDC the McGizmos, the more they grew on me. I finally decided to part with more dollars to get myself another high CRI Haiku. So now that I have three of these McGizmo lights, I rotate amongst them for my daily EDC. The XM-L Haiku got the most use out of the three because it has a good balance of flood and a slight amount of throw. Being XM-L, it isn't capable of throw, but the bigger hot spot makes it real nice for general illumination needs. When I got these McGizmos about two months ago, I have always ensured one sits in my pocket before I go out of house, and most of the time it is the XM-L Haiku. The high CRI Mule may come along once in awhile and the high CRI Haiku for days when I know that I am going trekking.

Other than McGizmo for my EDC, I have along a Zebralight SC600 or SC600w most of the time. At times I would swap the Zebralight for an HDS. So since this thread is about McGizmo vs HDS, I will provide some feedback on my experience with two of my most used. McGizmo Haiku XM-L vs HDS Rotary.

Both are rated at around 200 lumen. The XP-G Rotary has a much more intense hot spot making it better for throw than the XM-L Haiku. The Haiku on the other hand, has a wider hot spot with very smooth transition to spill and makes for an overall more useful beam for close up applications.

One thing I have to give to McGizmo is the ergonomically designed and machined body. It just feels right in my hands. Not that HDS doesn't feel nice to hold, but McGizmo just felt one level higher. And the ability to tail stand any McGizmo is a real plus.

I also love the feel of the McClicky switch. It is probably the best clicky switch I have handled and makes clicking a real pleasure. I can't really decide if I prefer the HDS's electronic switch or McGizmo's clicky. Let's just say they are both nice switches.

We all know how some pocket clips seem to get in the way and feels downright uncomfortable, especially so with HDS. Some even go to the extend of removing the clip from their lights. One thing I appreciate about McGizmo lights are the clips. They just feel nice on the light, like it is part of the light and does not get in the way of the operation. One could even rest his index finger on the tip of the clip like how one would hold a pen and it just feels good. The clip placement also allows the light to sit lower in the pocket, allowing for more concealment as well as protecting the light from more scratches.

All these said, I love both brands and would feel all covered with any one of these brands but I seem to like McGizmo more now. It is the feel of using the light. It just felt like it is made for my hands. I realized that whenever I needed a light, I always reached for my Haiku. I think I am so addicted to McGizmo lights now I believe I would continue to buy another as long as I could still afford one. Would I then still continue to buy HDS? Sure I would, especially when the rotary is available in high CRI.


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## Quiksilver (Dec 20, 2011)

IMO the price of the Clicky puts it over the top. 

I can has many Clickies for the price of a Haiku. 

If price is not a factor, then maybe the Haiku by a nose, but price is most definitely a factor for me. 

For the price of a Haiku I can have a whole rack of Clickies, which go head to head in the important areas for me (durability, water resistance, ruggedness) and come out ahead as often as not. 

I suppose the obvious analogy is the German tanks vs. Russian tanks. Germans had best tanks in the world, but Russians had decent tanks which were mass-produced due to cheaper price. I would rather have 5 Russian tanks than 1 German tank. 

If price is not a factor, I'd choose the Haiku just for novelty, but as above price is indeed a factor since durability and usability is pretty much equal.

Price efficiency is important to me, even in high quality products, so that is why my vote goes to Henry. He can get me a light of almost the same quality as a Haiku for substantially less.

edit: Regarding the look of it, the HDS Clicky/Rotary is more aesthetically pleasing to me than the Haiku ... Just not the biggest fan of really shiny stuff.


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## nbp (Dec 20, 2011)

It's easy to make choice based on price, we all like to save money. It's quite another to actually own both lights and make an objective decision based on features and functionality. 

Andy, thanks for your input. You share many of same thoughts I have. I will be posting a few of my early observations later on from carrying both together.


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## pjandyho (Dec 20, 2011)

Thanks Nick, I long to hear of your thoughts comparing both.


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## nbp (Dec 20, 2011)

EDC SHOOTOUT: 

THE CONTENDERS:

HDS Clicky 200 vs. Haiku XP-G








I will be posting the results of my various usage situations in this post. I will just add to this one post to keep things straight. Each "challenge" will have a winner. We'll see who does the best over the course of a few days.




Challenge # 1: Ease of Carry


The first task was putting them in my pocket. The two lights are virtually identical in size and shape, and therefore carry very much the same. The difference comes in with the clip. If you've read my Haiku review or previous Clicky threads, you know I like clips and prefer to carry my EDC lights clipped to my jeans pocket. Thus, this in an important challenge.

If we were to compare the stock clips on the two lights, Don wins hands-down. His clip is the bomb. It is highly functional, aesthetically pleasing, and ergonomically designed. It is a continuation of the body of the light, rather than an add-on. 

Henry, despite having thought so much about every other feature of his lights, continues to view clips as an afterthought. They work, but they are typically ugly, and not comfortable to grip. The stock clip is really not much to behold. Fortunately there are aftermarket clips. As you see above, I have attached a Ti Moddoo clip to the Clicky for marked improvement in aesthetics and function. This is really a nice clip: grips well, looks great. Ergonomics, still not that great though; not that comfortable in the hand. 


Challenge # 1 Winner: Haiku



Challenge # 2 Ease of UI

I was at work and I needed to inspect the inside of a steel hopper on one of our fillers to look for possible contamination in the product. I whipped out the Clicky and flicked it on. Not enough light; I double clicked, shoot, that's the .3 lm mode. Wait, did I double click or triple click? Ah, forget it, click-hold for max. 

This instance illustrated for me one of the downsides of the more complex UI of the Clicky. If you don't use it all the time, it's easy to mess it up, or go to the wrong mode or forget what's programmed where. If I had taken out the Haiku, I could have pulsed to med or high and latched on in the mode I wanted without an issue. It's definitely the simpler UI. 

Now, I realize for many, the programability of the light is one of the selling points of the Clicky, and I agree that it is a highly useful function. But after using the simpler 3 mode forward clicky of the Haiku, going back was a bit trickier. If you have very definite needs for the programming, it may be a better light for you. If you, like me, have simpler illumination needs, the single button programmable interface may be overkill, while the Haiku's interface may suffice. You can certainly program the Clicky to be just a dual mode or three mode light if you want, but that seems sort of a waste. Neither one is necessarily BETTER, but different, and more appropriate for different situations. 

For me, there are times when the Clicky UI is very useful, but for a general EDC, I find I usually use just hi or low anyways, so a simple tap-to-change UI is easier and more functional, and causes less hassle when I want light quickly.

Challenge # 2 Winner: Haiku




Challenge # 3: Low Light Illumination

I came home from work about 12:00am (I work second shift) and wanted to track down a snack in the kitchen before bed. I also wanted to avoid turning on lights as others were already sleeping. Aha! Grabbed the Clicky, pressed it against my chest and clicked to the .3 lm mode. I found the peanut butter in the cabinet and all was well.

In this situation, the Clicky absolutely excels. The super low modes on the Clicky are not even an option on the Haiku unless you want to program your own driver. The Clicky goes down to .07 lm. If you have need for a super low mode, or several of them, the Clicky is definitely the better choice. Or if you want to be sure of insanely long runtimes on very low modes for emergency use, the Clicky is the better choice. 

For most of my EDC use, I find the Haiku's 10 lm low to be fine, and I have several low-low lights at home for nighttime navigation. However, in this particular challenge, I needed the low low, and the Clicky delivered. 

Challenge # 3 Winner: Clicky



Challenge # 4: Tailstanding

The previous challenge morphed into this one pretty quickly as I went to tailstand the Clicky while scooping the PB. The Clicky 'can' tailstand, but it requires some work to press out all the air from the button while putting the tailcap on if you want it to be really solid. Otherwise it wobbles, even with the flush button. With the raised button, it is impossible without the aid of some sort of delrin shroud or bottle cap or something. The Haiku tailstands rock solid, first time, every time. If you need to tailstand frequently, think hard about the Clicky and how you're going to get around that one.

Challenge # 4 Winner: Haiku


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## stoli67 (Dec 20, 2011)

God I hate to say it but I like the moddoo clip way better.... just easier to slip on and off.... the Haiku clip is the more robust and would no doubt stay on even if you bungy jumped upsidown but I do not find it easier to use.

BTW good tip on the Titanium Beads..... I now have two the same and two of the trit beads!








With my new 18mm Orange Trit sphere!


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## Filip (Dec 21, 2011)

Very nice thread.

Andy, nbp, could you please comment on the throw of Haiku *HCRI* compared to Surefire A2 (stock bulb or LF) and HDS Rotary 200? This could be a helpful description of the beams characteristics for me.

Thank you.


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## pjandyho (Dec 21, 2011)

Filip said:


> Very nice thread.
> 
> Andy, nbp, could you please comment on the throw of Haiku *HCRI* compared to Surefire A2 (stock bulb or LF) and HDS Rotary 200? This could be a helpful description of the beams characteristics for me.
> 
> Thank you.


Will let you know later. Probably bring it out for a short walk. I am not so sure if it would be fair using my A2 for comparison since I realized that mine seems a little more floody than my friend's A2. I couldn't remember if the difference in beam between both our A2 is significant. Btw I am using stock MA02 lamp.


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## chanjyj (Dec 21, 2011)

Going to watch nbp's post


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## nbp (Dec 21, 2011)

I used to have an A2 but not anymore, and I don't have a Nichia engine for my Haiku so I can't really give a good comment on that. 

Andrew, no worries on the clip man, that's why there's options. If you take clips on and off often, I could see why the HDS might be nice. For me they're permanent, so Don's is better, for me. Glad Peter could hook you up with lanslides too, they look great! :thumbsup:


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## pjandyho (Dec 21, 2011)

Filip said:


> Very nice thread.
> 
> Andy, nbp, could you please comment on the throw of Haiku *HCRI* compared to Surefire A2 (stock bulb or LF) and HDS Rotary 200? This could be a helpful description of the beams characteristics for me.
> 
> Thank you.





pjandyho said:


> Will let you know later. Probably bring it out for a short walk. I am not so sure if it would be fair using my A2 for comparison since I realized that mine seems a little more floody than my friend's A2. I couldn't remember if the difference in beam between both our A2 is significant. Btw I am using stock MA02 lamp.


Hi Filip,

Not the best shot but I was kinda lazy tonight so I hope you don't mind. McGizmo Haiku and Surefire A2 actually looks slightly brighter in person but the camera just wasn't able to capture the exposure latitude based on the same exposure setting as initially set for the HDS Rotary. Anyway as you can see, even with a slightly more floody A2 Aviator (as compared to my friend's), it still throws a tad better than the Haiku high CRI. There is an ample amount of spill beam from the A2 where the camera wasn't able to record, but the Haiku has slightly more. To be honest, I was kind of surprised myself that the A2 which was rated at only 50 lumens, could produce a more intense hot spot than the Haiku which measures somewhere between 80 to 90 lumens. Putting the 200 lumens HDS Rotary to the comparison is not fair at all but since you are interested, why not?

Target distance (which is the thinner trunk behind) is about 15 meters.

HDS Rotary R1B-200





McGizmo Haiku high CRI





Surefire A2 Aviator


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## stoli67 (Dec 21, 2011)

I just meant getting the moddoo in and out of your jeans pocket and over the edge of the pocket .... My haiku (and my mule and pds) clips are so tight that it takes two hands ... One to hold the clip open and one to slide it on... Perhaps if I edced them more( using the clip) and not just putting them in my pocket, they would loosen up a bit?

The throw on that rotary is pretty wild !

I will have beam shots of my Ti RA clicky XML upgrade soon... Thanks to datiLED... Then I can compare to my warm haiku .... And a few others ... I don't have an A2 but I do have an LX2 luminax...


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## stoli67 (Dec 21, 2011)

Double post sorry... Always seems to happen on tapatalk!


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## nbp (Dec 21, 2011)

chanjyj said:


> Going to watch nbp's post




More Challenges added to post 72.  





stoli67 said:


> I just meant getting the moddoo in and out of your jeans pocket and over the edge of the pocket .... My haiku (and my mule and pds) clips are so tight that it takes two hands ... One to hold the clip open and one to slide it on... Perhaps if I edced them more( using the clip) and not just putting them in my pocket, they would loosen up a bit?
> 
> The throw on that rotary is pretty wild !
> 
> I will have beam shots of my Ti RA clicky XML upgrade soon... Thanks to datiLED... Then I can compare to my warm haiku .... And a few others ... I don't have an A2 but I do have an LX2 luminax...




Oh, I see what you mean. Yeah, the Moddoo clip is a bit easier to get on the pocket. The edge of the pockets on my work jeans are getting eaten by the McG clips, lol. I have gotten good at using one hand to hold the clip and pinch it to pull it away from the body of the light a bit to slide it on, but it is stiff, you're right. I have read that some people have taken the clips off and bent them a bit so they're not as stiff; so that's an option I guess.


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## run4jc (Dec 21, 2011)

nbp said:


> EDC SHOOTOUT:
> 
> THE CONTENDERS:
> 
> ...



Whew! Talk about a thread that can stir up passion! My friends on the forum know my ultimate choice - but having owned 7 Clickies, I think it's okay if I chime in.

#1 - for me, hands down, it's the Haiku. And I actually don't care for clips......but the Haiku clip is useful to me for lanyard attachment and occasionally clipping on to my pocket. The ridges/textures of the Haiku are easier for me grab hold of when I need it.

#2 - Again, agreed - hands down, the Haiku. 3 levels. Memory of last level. Rock solid mechanical clicky.

#3 - Once again, agreed. The Clicky has a great low, but in all honesty the only time I use the really low setting is in the middle of the night and moving around early in the morning so as to not wake my wife. For that, I keep a ThruNite Ti Firefly in my pocket, modded to the Firefly setting only. Both the Haiku and the Clicky are too big to keep in my pocket at night when sleeping, so neither one really is considered for use.

#4 - Tailstanding. Again - easy choice.

But there are many other factors when choosing, although these are really good ones. Man, I love the Clickies, but I suppose I'm just a Haiku kinda guy. After owning those 7 Clickies:

170 Tactical
170 Executive
140 modded by Teknocowboy to a warm XPG
High CRI
Ti Clicky
2 Rotary 200s

I no longer own any (although I have a tactical 200 on my list of 'stuff to get.')

But I own 4 Haikus...plus a spare Haiku XPG engine....and after 2 years of use and owning far too many other lights, from low end to incan to ultra high end, the Haiku XPG remains my favorite all around 'dog walking light', and my Haiku High CRI remains my favorite for general EDC.


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## davyro (Dec 21, 2011)

I don't know if this the wrong thing to say but how can you compare a Ra Clicky against a McGizmo,for me it's like comparing a ferrari to a Ford.
One is much more expensive than the other.So it's not really a fair comparison.I know people will say it's not about the price it's about the light,
but if you gave Henry a project & said do me a Ra Clicky for the same price as a McGizmo what's the odds that Henry would come up with something
really special.Don makes a fantastic light,all by hand & individually.Henry mass produces his & has to rely heavily on suppliers.Lately anyone who's
ordered a Ra Clicky will know this is not an ideal situation.So for me i know it's a bit of fun to compare these two outstanding lights,the odds are
stacked heavily in Don's favour.


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## pjandyho (Dec 22, 2011)

davyro said:


> I don't know if this the wrong thing to say but how can you compare a Ra Clicky against a McGizmo,for me it's like comparing a ferrari to a Ford.
> One is much more expensive than the other.So it's not really a fair comparison.I know people will say it's not about the price it's about the light,
> but if you gave Henry a project & said do me a Ra Clicky for the same price as a McGizmo what's the odds that Henry would come up with something
> really special.Don makes a fantastic light,all by hand & individually.Henry mass produces his & has to rely heavily on suppliers.Lately anyone who's
> ...


The last time Henry made a titanium clicky it costs a lot more than a Haiku from Don. I think it is still a fair comparison.


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## Filip (Dec 22, 2011)

Hi Andy,

Thank you very much for your time! Those (clever arranged) beamshots show exactly what I hoped to see. (Btw, I would like to be half as good a photographer as you are when you feel "kinda lazy" ;-). Your posts belong to the best on CPF and your outdoor beamshots have no competition IMO.)

nbp, you do a great job in post #72, thank you.


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## OCD (Dec 22, 2011)

pjandyho said:


> The last time Henry made a titanium clicky it costs a lot more than a Haiku from Don. I think it is still a fair comparison.



I have to agree somewhat with davyro. Yes, the titanium clicky may have been more $ than a Haiku, but it wasn't specified as such...the original post (and subsequent comparisons) have been of RA Clicky's as a whole. Comparing the titanium clicky (as a Ford GT-40) to a Haiku (Ferrari) would be a a better comparison, IMO. The GT-40 is still a Ford...just as the titanium clicky is still and HDS, but both are limited runs of a high-end product.

I do find this entire thread interesting to see lights that possibly have an even more faithful following than the HDS....and to each is own.


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## nbp (Dec 22, 2011)

I don't really think it's an unfair comparison. In reality, the electronics in the Clicky and the switch are way more complicated than the Haiku and probably pricier. The main difference is the cost of machining the titanium and the economies of scale that Henry enjoys. But he could easily machine a body tube that looks and works like the Haiku's and stuff his electronics in it. So how is it unfair to compare them? The higher price doesn't necessarily mean it's better. Some people have tried both and still prefer the Clicky. That's why I focused on the actual use of the light and not the 'bling' factor. Henry stands the same chance of winning Don does in those areas.


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## pjandyho (Dec 22, 2011)

nbp said:


> I don't really think it's an unfair comparison. In reality, the electronics in the Clicky and the switch are way more complicated than the Haiku and probably pricier. The main difference is the cost of machining the titanium and the economies of scale that Henry enjoys. But he could easily machine a body tube that looks and works like the Haiku's and stuff his electronics in it. So how is it unfair to compare them? The higher price doesn't necessarily mean it's better. Some people have tried both and still prefer the Clicky. That's why I focused on the actual use of the light and not the 'bling' factor. *Henry stands the same chance of winning Don does in those areas.*


Agreed. Both made my favorite lights. Honestly, if the clicky is tail standable, or has anti-roll, or has a clip like Don's, I would be all over it.


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## davyro (Dec 22, 2011)

That's the beuty of this thread,everyone of us has a different view on thing's.What i would say is i think we probably all agree in one part of this discussion
is that the HDS & the McGizmo's are both outstanding light's that we are lucky enough to either own or have had the pleasure of using once or twice.So
it's a big thank you to nbp for thinking of this topic to discuss:thumbsup:


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## stoli67 (Dec 22, 2011)

Every true flashaholic will have or have had one or several of both.....

Part of a well rounded stable of lights!


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## kaichu dento (Dec 22, 2011)

OCD said:


> Comparing the titanium clicky (as a Ford GT-40) to a Haiku (Ferrari) would be a a better comparison, IMO. The GT-40 is still a Ford...just as the titanium clicky is still and HDS, but both are limited runs of a high-end product.


This is an incomprehensible comparison and couldn't be further from reality in any terms other than cache of owning something more expensive, which is the only way in which the Haiku could be compared to a Ferrari over the Clicky.
The way these lights compare best is on their own merits which do not translate well to vehicular comparisons but if one really must do so, it would be better to compare Don's creation to something known for being tough, well engineered and reliable while Henry's light takes the technological edge, in addition to the traits it shares with Don's light.


Challenge # 1: Ease of Carry

For those who carry using a clip, the Haiku comes with one of the best, but it can be very hard on whatever materials it comes into contact with, or should I say, whatever the underlying flashlight body comes in contact with.
Having lost a couple of good lights due to clip carry and watched the edge on my pockets wear out on otherwise fairly new pants, I'm shifting more and more to lanyard carry, and both of these lights do well with a turk's head knot and lanyard. 

For included clip, the Haiku, for anyone not using a clip, a complete toss-up with no clear winner.

Challenge # 2 Ease of UI

Another toss-up with people preferring a rotational cycle for mode changes finding bliss with the Haiku, those of us who strongly desire more direct accessibility to other modes and more of them still find it hard to leave their Clicky's at home. Another glitch that
shows up on a regular basis is the tendency for the Haiku to need to receive multiple commands before realizing it's being to not to stay on high. 
Two great UI's which in their lack of absolute perfection still are among the best offered for a multi-mode light.

Challenge # 3: Low Light Illumination

As the Haiku has no level that would be described as low and how it has come to be viewed in the last couple of years, this is one area
in which the Clicky holds supremacy and the main factor in making the Haiku incapable of covering all the bases that the Clicky does for me.

Challenge # 4: Tailstanding

Both lights are capable of tail-standing, but only those lucky enough to have the flatter button like I have on my present use Clicky can do so without having to take special care in not having it tip, which is unfortunately due to the rubber switch cover on the Clicky having changed to one that protrudes more than the previously flatter ones.
If you've got one of the flat button Clicky's it's hard to see a clear winner, but in all actuality, it's the Haiku that is always a good tail-stander that you never have to wonder about. 

Challenge # 5: Gripping recess

Both of these lights have a feature most of us have come to take for granted, notably the recessed gripping area and they are both excellent. Again, hard to credit a clear winner but I do see a slight advantage to the Haiku for it's additional length, allowing for easy movement up past the mid-point on the light. Both great with the Haiku offering a little more range; not necessarily better, but definitely giving nothing up in this area, especially with the grip offered by the Haiku's deeply cut gripping rings.

Challenge # 6: Overall versatility 

While the Haiku can and does wonderfully at covering all bases needed by it's fans, it is still held in highest regard by those not needing a low level from their light and for me, once again a hard toss-up mainly seeing an edge to the additional output option on the Clicky of the very useful low levels, not to mention on the fly tweaking for situations where the existing level is not quite right. 
The Haiku has three levels which will cover most day to day usage very, very well, the ability to set your brightnesses exactly where you want them is for some of us more than just a novelty and couple with the low output level leaves the Clicky in top position for this category.


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## OCD (Dec 22, 2011)

kaichu dento said:


> This is an incomprehensible comparison and couldn't be further from reality in any terms other than cache of owning something more expensive, which is the only way in which the Haiku could be compared to a Ferrari over the Clicky.



Okay then. I will address this comment but will not respond to any others on this specific comparison issue as I do not want to take away from the comparison of the lights themselves.

I find your term "incomprehensible" bordering arrogance as I simply agreed with another member and put my perspective on it. As for it being "incomprehensible", IMO you are way off base because it equates it to other, everyday things people can more easily "comprehend". If you feel it isn't a "correct" comparison and want to explain why, I respect that and invite you to make a more accurate comparison that others can comprehend.

Some people can't comprehend an electronic clicky such that the HDS uses. Tell them its just like the clicky button in a mouse and "TADA!" Some people need comparisons to better grasp things and ideas.

I have said my piece and will not respond anymore on this issue but will sit back and take in all the objective comparisons of between these two great lights.


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## nbp (Dec 23, 2011)

davyro said:


> That's the beuty of this thread,everyone of us has a different view on thing's.What i would say is i think we probably all agree in one part of this discussion
> is that the HDS & the McGizmo's are both outstanding light's that we are lucky enough to either own or have had the pleasure of using once or twice.So
> it's a big thank you to nbp for thinking of this topic to discuss:thumbsup:



I'll agree with you on that post! And actually it was JWRitchie76 who thought of it, and I merely bumped it. 

Pete my man, thank you for your additional input on the Challenges. Some very good insight from a guy who has had nearly every flashlight made at one point or another.  I hope to add some more to my post as well if I find some additional talking points, or else I'll steal yours. :nana:

I appreciate how objective we've been able to keep this discussion for the most part. I think we've all been able to assemble some really good data points for people interested in these lights. 

Basically I am coming to the conclusion that carrying both is quite a good solution.  I am missing my Mule after a few days though.


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## pjandyho (Dec 23, 2011)

stoli67 said:


> Every true flashaholic will have or have had one or several of both.....
> 
> Part of a well rounded stable of lights!


Oh great! I was just starting to live in denial but you just reminded me that I really am a true flashaholic. I am doomed. There's no cure for my flashlight intoxication and my wallet hates me.


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## pjandyho (Dec 23, 2011)

nbp said:


> I hope to add some more to my post as well if I find some additional talking points, or else I'll steal yours. :nana:


Hey Nick, I am still waiting for challenge #2 from you. :nana: C'mon, is it coming soon?


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## nbp (Dec 23, 2011)

pjandyho said:


> Hey Nick, I am still waiting for challenge #2 from you. :nana: C'mon, is it coming soon?



I posted several more on Wed. man. They're all in the same post, 72. :nana:


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## pjandyho (Dec 23, 2011)

nbp said:


> I posted several more on Wed. man. They're all in the same post, 72. :nana:


Got it bro. Guess I missed that. Your experience there seems to mirror mine.


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## kaichu dento (Dec 23, 2011)

OCD said:


> I find your term "incomprehensible" bordering arrogance as I simply agreed with another member and put my perspective on it. As for it being "incomprehensible", IMO you are way off base because it equates it to other, everyday things people can more easily "comprehend". If you feel it isn't a "correct" comparison and want to explain why, I respect that and invite you to make a more accurate comparison that others can comprehend.


Arrogance? Hmmm.... still a poor comparison to suggest that the Haiku is a Ferrari and the Clicky something much more mundane. I guess you've scolded me and still not understood that I did explain why I think the comparison is completely out of context as the Clicky is the one with the arguably higher level of technological advancement and risk-taking while the Haiku is more of a simple design executed to the brink of perfection. 

The main problem I have really with this kind of comparison is that in sharp contrast to Nick's subjective approach, which you will notice a good many of the rest of us here have tried our best to take, is the suggestion that if you want something special, you'll choose the one over the other - not so, as they are each better than the other, with little compromise, for the intended target audience. 


nbp said:


> Pete my man, thank you for your additional input on the Challenges. Some very good insight from a guy who has had nearly every flashlight made at one point or another.  I hope to add some more to my post as well if I find some additional talking points, or else I'll steal yours. :nana:
> 
> I appreciate how objective we've been able to keep this discussion for the most part. I think we've all been able to assemble some really good data points for people interested in these lights.
> 
> Basically I am coming to the conclusion that carrying both is quite a good solution.  I am missing my Mule after a few days though.


I'm sure you'll have more as the days go by and it's always fun looking forward to your posts, largely because of the neutrality you try to display coupled with practical daily experimentation.


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## Bullzeyebill (Dec 23, 2011)

Let's not have a tizzy here. Talk about flashlights and stay away from arguments about who said what.

Bill


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## stoli67 (Dec 23, 2011)

If it is unfair as someone stated to compair the Haiku to the Clicky as one is more expenvie than the other..... I have a solution..... lets compare these!


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## climberkid (Dec 23, 2011)

Stoli, do I have your permission to print that and iron it onto my sheets?! 

 haha


Alex


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## pjandyho (Dec 23, 2011)

stoli67 said:


> If it is unfair as someone stated to compair the Haiku to the Clicky as one is more expenvie than the other..... I have a solution..... lets compare these!


Is your clicky for sale???


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## stoli67 (Dec 23, 2011)

Actually I am waiting for another clicky that I bought from Shelby to come back after its datiLED neutral XML upgrade..... not sure what I will do with this one if the new is all that I expect.....


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## nbp (Dec 23, 2011)

kaichu dento said:


> The main problem I have really with this kind of comparison is that in sharp contrast to Nick's subjective approach, which you will notice a good many of the rest of us here have tried our best to take, is the suggestion that if you want something special, you'll choose the one over the other - not so, as they are each better than the other, with little compromise, for the intended target audience.
> I'm sure you'll have more as the days go by and it's always fun looking forward to your posts, largely because of the neutrality you try to display coupled with practical daily experimentation.



Thanks for the kind words Pete.  I am not an electrical engineer, and I have only a basic understanding of how LEDs are made, how batteries work, what drivers do, how to do all sorts of fancy calculations some of these guys do..... What I do have is common sense (I think :thinking: ) and the ability to assess a product in a real world situation. Most anytime I comment on a light, that's the approach I take. What is it like to use the darn thing? Because that's all I really can offer and I think in the long run it's the most beneficial; hopefully it helps others. 

I am coming to the understanding that, as you said, every product we buy is a compromise. No human made thing is perfect. Thus, any time we buy a product, like a flashlight, we are hoping to find one that hits more "right" features than "wrong" features. For each person this is different. A presentation of the features of a light is an important part of selecting which one is 'better' for ME, or YOU. Factors like price are in fact secondary, though they can at times override the primary factors, those being the actual features of the product. Thus, these two lights CAN be compared fairly. They both have the same basic functions, and a person can juxtapose the peculiar features to find the one that is better suited to their particular needs.

In the end, they are both excellent lights, and you really are winning either way. And both offer features the other doesn't. Hopefully presentations of facts and data from real world experience can help potential buyers choose what is 'winning-er' for them. LOL. If you want to hear me swoon about the Haiku you can read my review. Here in this thread, I think facts prevail, and I don't believe there is a clear and defined winner. Without a clear and defined set of usage parameters, how could there be? 



stoli67 said:


> If it is unfair as someone stated to compair the Haiku to the Clicky as one is more expenvie than the other..... I have a solution..... lets compare these!



Ah, the Ti Clicky. That was a joy to own! And it evened up the score on the things I didn't talk about but wanted to, namely: aesthetics, ruggedness/resistance to scratches, abrasion, corrosion, and coolness. 

I scored another one of those ribbed longslides from Peter yesterday, this time in SS. I might put that one on my Clicky. oo:


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## peterharvey73 (Dec 23, 2011)

Bullzeyebill said:


> Let's not have a tizzy here. Talk about flashlights and stay away from arguments about who said what.
> 
> Bill



Very well stated Bill.
It's not about destructive negatively commenting about someone else's opinion.
It's about constructively and positively focusing on your own opinions and your own ideas...


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## chaoss (Dec 23, 2011)

Simple reply here.
I have owned both and still have the clicky FWIW!!


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## Biginboca (Dec 24, 2011)

I prefer the ruggedness, programability, and price of the hds. It's funny to me how people go gaga over titanium lights. Titanium is a lousy heatsink and objectively inferior to aluminum for functionality. An aluminum HDS is tougher than it needs to be and the material also better at heatsinking. Sometimes I think if I had titanium cat turds people would by them. It's not some magic material, just a metal that in this instance isn't the best choice for function.


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## nbp (Dec 24, 2011)

Good thing the Haiku is driven at a low enough level that overheating isn't a problem, even in it's 'lousy' titanium shell.


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## scout24 (Dec 24, 2011)

That "low enough level" has consistently netted 185 plus lumens.  EDIT- that number applies to the Haiku XP-G...


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## kaichu dento (Dec 24, 2011)

peterharvey73 said:


> Very well stated Bill.
> It's not about destructive negatively commenting about someone else's opinion.
> It's about constructively and positively focusing on your own opinions and your own ideas...


Yes, Bill stated it quite well and your post here does nothing to add to the conversation which has already been handled in a positive manner.


Biginboca said:


> I prefer the ruggedness, programability, and price of the hds. It's funny to me how people go gaga over titanium lights. Titanium is a lousy heatsink and objectively inferior to aluminum for functionality. An aluminum HDS is tougher than it needs to be and the material also better at heatsinking. Sometimes I think if I had titanium cat turds people would by them. It's not some magic material, just a metal that in this instance isn't the best choice for function.


Titanium actually works better than it many appear to think it does and having had no heat problems from any of my titanium lights you may be surprised when you actually get one in your hands.

As you've dutifully noted, titanium is not a magical material, and neither is aluminum, but they both work quite well for these two excellent lights!


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## notsofast (Dec 24, 2011)

Biginboca said:


> I prefer the ruggedness, programability, and price of the hds. It's funny to me how people go gaga over titanium lights. Titanium is a lousy heatsink and objectively inferior to aluminum for functionality. An aluminum HDS is tougher than it needs to be and the material also better at heatsinking. Sometimes I think if I had titanium cat turds people would by them. It's not some magic material, just a metal that in this instance isn't the best choice for function.



I am with you on this my southern friend.

I like the bling of Ti, but not the weight, heat-sinking and cost. 

I tried a McGizmo Haiku and agree with those that swear by them that it is a great light, nice beam and smooth operation. However I didn't find the beam exceptional, not like his HD45. I thought that the Mac's SST-50 was equal in every way. 

If the Haiku had a model in Alu and the cost was on par with HDS I doubt I would own one because the low is not low enough...I still have 2 of the 5 of Henry's lights that I have owned.


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## scout24 (Dec 24, 2011)

All day, nagging at me was the thought that I'd forgotten something that I wanted to add to this. Here's my thinking: Add in the E-series compatability of the Haiku (And McClicky Mule, Sundrop, Makai...) and the fact that I can break down the light into component parts with a toothpick, my Leatherman, and a Thorp driver if I want to get all crazy and remove the clip. The plethora of E-series components available is mind boggling, leading to almost endless cell, body, and head combinations, within the limitations of voltage. I can run a 3V Haiku head on 2xAA, 1x14500, 1xCR2, 1x17670, 1x18650, a 6V head on all those plus 2xRCR of your choosing, bodies are all readily available. Switch broken? Two minutes and it's out waiting replacement, readily available from several sources. (You do have a spare, right? Cheap and also readily available, along with the switch boots...) Driver burnt? However unlikely? How many sources of Aleph cans and drivers are there? I'm going to give these very big points to the Haiku... My $.02


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## nbp (Dec 25, 2011)

scout24 said:


> That "low enough level" has consistently netted 185 plus lumens.  EDIT- that number applies to the Haiku XP-G...



Yup, not a retina scorcher, but still plenty. Even the XM-L module is somewhere around 200 lm on 3v. While some view Don's lights as shelf queens, he doesn't design them as such, but builds them to be used. His conservative drive levels are evidence of that. They are built as tools, and to withstand heavy usage without premature failure. 



scout24 said:


> All day, nagging at me was the thought that I'd forgotten something that I wanted to add to this. Here's my thinking: Add in the E-series compatability of the Haiku (And McClicky Mule, Sundrop, Makai...) and the fact that I can break down the light into component parts with a toothpick, my Leatherman, and a Thorp driver if I want to get all crazy and remove the clip. The plethora of E-series components available is mind boggling, leading to almost endless cell, body, and head combinations, within the limitations of voltage. I can run a 3V Haiku head on 2xAA, 1x14500, 1xCR2, 1x17670, 1x18650, a 6V head on all those plus 2xRCR of your choosing, bodies are all readily available. Switch broken? Two minutes and it's out waiting replacement, readily available from several sources. (You do have a spare, right? Cheap and also readily available, along with the switch boots...) Driver burnt? However unlikely? How many sources of Aleph cans and drivers are there? I'm going to give these very big points to the Haiku... My $.02



User serviceability is a definite plus, good point. When your HDS has an issue, get your bubble mailer ready 'cuz you're probably not gonna fix it yourself.


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## kaichu dento (Dec 25, 2011)

I believe the Clicky to be a bit more reliable in the long run on the point of battery-end-of-life as the Clicky will slowly operate at ever lower levels while the Haiku still tries to access high first.

Just pulled a 16340 which was low enough that there was little difference between the two highest output levels programmed on my Clicky, but it still ran no problem and past experience suggests that I could have still used it a bit more before losing all possibility of producing any light. Unfortunately a quick drop into the Haiku which refused to give any more than a couple flashes resulted in neither light working on it afterwards.

Very important to watch your batteries but if one slips up there will probably be less possibility of getting left in the dark with the Clicky.


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## eh4 (Dec 25, 2011)

scout24 said:


> All day, nagging at me was the thought that I'd forgotten something that I wanted to add to this. Here's my thinking: Add in the E-series compatability of the Haiku (And McClicky Mule, Sundrop, Makai...) and the fact that I can break down the light into component parts with a toothpick, my Leatherman, and a Thorp driver if I want to get all crazy and remove the clip. The plethora of E-series components available is mind boggling, leading to almost endless cell, body, and head combinations, within the limitations of voltage. I can run a 3V Haiku head on 2xAA, 1x14500, 1xCR2, 1x17670, 1x18650, a 6V head on all those plus 2xRCR of your choosing, bodies are all readily available. Switch broken? Two minutes and it's out waiting replacement, readily available from several sources. (You do have a spare, right? Cheap and also readily available, along with the switch boots...) Driver burnt? However unlikely? How many sources of Aleph cans and drivers are there? I'm going to give these very big points to the Haiku... My $.02





Ok, now That is a significant advantage.


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## nbp (Dec 26, 2011)

kaichu dento said:


> I believe the Clicky to be a bit more reliable in the long run on the point of battery-end-of-life as the Clicky will slowly operate at ever lower levels while the Haiku still tries to access high first.
> 
> Just pulled a 16340 which was low enough that there was little difference between the two highest output levels programmed on my Clicky, but it still ran no problem and past experience suggests that I could have still used it a bit more before losing all possibility of producing any light. Unfortunately a quick drop into the Haiku which refused to give any more than a couple flashes resulted in neither light working on it afterwards.
> 
> Very important to watch your batteries but if one slips up there will probably be less possibility of getting left in the dark with the Clicky.



From a battery life perspective, you may be right. 

From an overall reliability perspective I don't think so, now that you have made me think of it. 

Case in point: I had 3 of 3 Clickies and 1 of 2 Twisties go haywire on me and need to be sent to Henry for repairs. The Twisty and Ti Clicky were repaired but ultimately 2 Clickies had to be replaced. That's an 80% "failure" rate. 

So far, 0 of 4 McGizmos have failed me. Less parts means less to break. 

Challenge # 5: Reliability

Challenge # 5 Winner: McGizmo

Still love ya Henry though Henry.


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## pjandyho (Dec 26, 2011)

True. With HDS I had sent a 140 GT, two 100 high CRI, a 200 rotary, a spare 16340 tube for servicing. Out of which one of the light had to go in a second time for servicing.

As for McGizmo, I did encounter a slight issue with one switch not switching off and needed a few clicks to switch it off. Don just sent me a couple of new switches and I replaced it immediately. No other problems since.


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## kaichu dento (Dec 26, 2011)

Yeah, definitely overall peace-of-mind probably goes with the Haiku, and that means a lot. While I guess that still from a singular perspective of battery end-of-life predictability goes to the Clicky, Haiku is the most likely to never fail as long as batteries are monitored.

Anyone wondering which of these two lights would be the best to carry alone, remember that they will serve, but are still best accompanied by a second light, and as such, they make a pretty good traveling pair!


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## pjandyho (Dec 26, 2011)

If I were to carry only one light, either an HDS or a McGizmo would do for me. I am pretty confident with any one of them. And I do agree that they make a very good pair for EDC.


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## nbp (Dec 28, 2011)

I used my Clickies quite a bit over the weekend, around the house and basement doing some work and cleaning. I was reminded of how how nice they are and how I enjoy them. Excellent lights, for real. 

Went back to work today after Monday off and the Haiku and Mule went in my pocket. They just felt right. How do you quantify that? I ask because I don't know. It's like asking why something tastes good. ?? You can't explain it to someone who thinks it tastes bad. For me, the McGizmos just feel right nestled in my pocket, ready for action. So I guess if I was forced to choose, I'd have to take the Haiku. Fortunately I don't have to, and can enjoy all my lights. 


-------------------------------------

I'm glad that we didn't have in this thread the person who pops in with the argument that the Clicky is better since it is made to be used while the Haiku is just made to be put on a shelf and looked at as art. That one really gets under my skin, when people who have no understanding of Don's design philosophies or of his feelings on lights and tools in general try to speak for him as a creator.


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## kaichu dento (Dec 28, 2011)

nbp said:


> I used my Clickies quite a bit over the weekend, around the house and basement doing some work and cleaning. I was reminded of how how nice they are and how I enjoy them. Excellent lights, for real.
> 
> Went back to work today after Monday off and the Haiku and Mule went in my pocket. They just felt right. How do you quantify that? I ask because I don't know. It's like asking why something tastes good. ?? You can't explain it to someone who thinks it tastes bad. For me, the McGizmos just feel right nestled in my pocket, ready for action. So I guess if I was forced to choose, I'd have to take the Haiku. Fortunately I don't have to, and can enjoy all my lights.
> 
> ...


Nick, that person you mentioned in the last part of your post is the guy who hasn't had one!


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## nbp (Dec 28, 2011)

kaichu dento said:


> Nick, that person you mentioned in the last part of your post is the guy who hasn't had one!



Right you are! There may be a few lights out there made for lookin' at, but this isn't one of them. This one was made for carryin'. :rock:


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## Shooter21 (Dec 29, 2011)

The haiku is definitely a looker, its the sexiest little torch i always take it everywhere


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## pjandyho (Dec 29, 2011)

nbp said:


> Right you are! There may be a few lights out there made for lookin' at, but this isn't one of them. This one was made for carryin'. :rock:


Well said! I love them Haikus so much I find all the reasons and excuses to use them. No shelf queening for me. They accompany me everywhere I go.


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## nbp (Dec 30, 2011)

Shooter21 said:


> The haiku is definitely a looker, its the sexiest little torch i always take it everywhere



Not that it isn't good looking, it certainly is!! Just that it's very well suited to actual use, not shelf queen duty. 



pjandyho said:


> Well said! I love them Haikus so much I find all the reasons and excuses to use them. No shelf queening for me. They accompany me everywhere I go.



Yup! Mine too. My Haiku and Mule are both starting to show some signs of carry after months of EDC, and it's making them even cooler. :thumbsup:


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## 340wedge (Dec 30, 2011)

Tough choice and you pick a winner either way.

As for me they both have ups and downs. Haiku wins on looks simplicity and over all feel including the clip. Hds has the better beam and ui. Now if only someone made a hds beam and ui in a haiku form hmmm.....

As far as reliablity the jury is still out for me.


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## fisk-king (Dec 30, 2011)

340wedge said:


> Tough choice and you pick a winner either way.
> 
> As for me they both have ups and downs. Haiku wins on looks simplicity and over all feel including the clip. Hds has the better beam and ui. Now if only someone made a hds beam and ui in a haiku form hmmm.....
> 
> As far as reliablity the jury is still out for me.



+1

I enjoy both lights, but sadly, I had to pick one to sell which ultimately came between my two McGizmos's, the Haiku or the Ti Pd-s. I still miss *her* from time to time, but whenever I look into the pd-s eye(s), I fall in love all over again (after of course when the stinging of the eyes go away). 

Married to the Clicky; Mistress is the ti pd-s


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## climberkid (Dec 30, 2011)

fisk-king said:


> +1
> 
> I enjoy both lights, but sadly, I had to pick one to sell which ultimately came between my two McGizmos's, the Haiku or the Ti Pd-s. I still miss *her* from time to time, but whenever I look into the pd-s eye(s), I fall in love all over again (after of course when the stinging of the eyes go away).
> 
> Married to the Clicky; Mistress is the ti pd-s



That was so beautiful (sniff sniff),I'm sorry for your reduction in family members. Must be terrible come tax time. 

Anyway, does anyone have a chart they could come up with, like some manuf. make to compare different light models?


Alex


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## nbp (Dec 30, 2011)

:shakehead You coulda had two mistresses. 




That's what's so great about the Haiku. It's like everyone's dream girl: the one who will climb under the car and get all greasy helping you do a brake job, but afterwards she cleans up and gets in her little black dress and heels and you go :wow: The Haiku is like that. 

I think scout24 had some pics of just what I'm talking posted somewhere. I will have to find those.


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## CMAG (Dec 30, 2011)

340wedge said:


> Tough choice and you pick a winner either way.
> 
> As for me they both have ups and downs. Haiku wins on looks simplicity and over all feel including the clip. Hds has the better beam and ui. Now if only someone made a hds beam and ui in a haiku form hmmm.....
> 
> As far as reliablity the jury is still out for me.



Haiku xm l has a much smother beam seamless transition from spot to spill no imperfections, HDS 170 small hot spot good amount of spill better throw, to say hds is a better beam not in my book better thrower hell yea I like em both but Gizmo is the winner imo


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## JWRitchie76 (Dec 30, 2011)

Good to see this conversation is alive and well and inhabited by some of the most respected and knowledgeable CPF's around! All I can add is that at this point I've kinda written off HDS but only for personal preference reasons. McGizmo has my attention. Sprinkle in a Peak here and a Malkoff there and I'm a happy flashlight user!


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## nbp (Dec 31, 2011)

JWRitchie76 said:


> Good to see this conversation is alive and well and inhabited by some of the most respected and knowledgeable CPF's around! All I can add is that at this point I've kinda written off HDS but only for personal preference reasons. McGizmo has my attention. Sprinkle in a Peak here and a Malkoff there and I'm a happy flashlight user!



Hi Jason. :wave: How's the fam and the move? Hope all is well. 

Yeah, we added about 65 posts to this thread since you were here last.  We were having fun, but I promise, we didn't break anything, just playing with flashights.. :devil:


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## nbp (Dec 31, 2011)

Ha! Took some searching, but I found the post where scout's Haiku is all greasy, working on the car. :sick2: These babies can take a lickin'.

Now I just have to get him to repost the cleaned up, looking hot photo again...it disappeared. :shrug: 





scout24 said:


> I was sharing some work pictures with run4jc earlier today, and this is why I carry and use Titanium McGizmos... I've carried my Haiku XP-G almost daily since new, over a year and a half now. It was a leap of faith, carrying and using an expensive light in such a manner, but I figured if I'm going to own it, I'm going to use the heck out of it! It's been dropped a few times, knocked over while tailstanding on concrete more times than I could count, had all manner of automotive fluids on it, etc... I figured it was time for my new addition Warm Haiku to hit the ground running this week at work.  The original XP-G looked like this more than a few times, and as seen in the third photo, is really no worse for wear. Covered with gear oil and brake dust, my default droplight... Five minutes with a rag and some Windex, it's ready to step out on the town... True working tools, or subtle bling in a suit pocket? Your choice, but more than capable of both... New Warm on right in third photo, after a bit of cleaning...  Thanks, Dan, for linking the first two pics in Picasa for me!


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## 340wedge (Dec 31, 2011)

CMAG said:


> Haiku xm l has a much smother beam seamless transition from spot to spill no imperfections, HDS 170 small hot spot good amount of spill better throw, to say hds is a better beam not in my book better thrower hell yea I like em both but Gizmo is the winner imo



Sorry should have mentioned the xr-e head and in my opinion for my light duties.


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## stoli67 (Jan 4, 2012)

The far left Ti Clicky has been modded to a Neutral XML!






The two clickies on the left both have XML upgrades!
Warm Haiku in the Middle next to a PDS with XML upgrade...

and a SPY007 5000K XML


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## nbp (Jan 4, 2012)

I like that neutral XM-L Clicky! I should have someone do that to one of my Clickies. How does the beam compare to the GDP or the XP-G Clickies? Is it significantly floodier? I wouldn't mind a floodier beam, more reminiscent of the old SSC versions. I really liked those a lot.

Plus, where the heck did you get a random Ti tailcap for your Fanta Clicky?


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## nbp (Jan 6, 2012)

Hey where'd my other post go? Grrrrr, CPF. :scowl: 

I'll just have to repost it. That neutral XM-L Clicky looks really nice man, I'd consider doing that to one of mine. What is the beam pattern like? Is it floodier than the XP-G? More reminiscent of the old SSC P4 based Clickies? I really liked those versions and wouldn't mind getting something like that again. 

Also, where the heck did you get an extra Ti tail for your Fanta Clicky?!


Edit: now I see the other post but it never moved up the list as a new post. :thinking: Who knows? Oh well.


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## stoli67 (Jan 6, 2012)

the new XML upgrades are fantastic.... much more floody than the original.... I will do a pic of the ti with original LED and the upgrade for comparison!


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## nbp (Feb 2, 2012)

I think I'm going to go back to EDCing the Haiku AND the Clicky together for a little bit again. So many good EDC lights, so few pockets.  I really love my Mule/Haiku pair, but there was something cool about the Haiku and Clicky combining forces to fight the darkness. 

Did anyone else who has both go to carrying one of each rather than one or the other? It seems the only sensible way to do it.


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## Shooter21 (Feb 2, 2012)

Every day i wear 2 pairs of pants so i can carry 4 of my favorite lights at once which include my rotary and haiku.


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## pjandyho (Feb 2, 2012)

Shooter21 said:


> Every day i *wear 2 pairs of pants* so i can carry 4 of my favorite lights at once which include my rotary and haiku.


LOLs! How many arse have you got my friend? :nana:


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## stoli67 (Feb 2, 2012)

I am with you nbp...

Been carrying an XML haiku and an XML ra clicky... 

The clicky is warm and the haiku cool white!


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## Shooter21 (Feb 2, 2012)

pjandyho said:


> LOLs! How many arse have you got my friend? :nana:


lol yea i need four pockets at all times to carry my babies.


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## kaichu dento (Feb 3, 2012)

nbp said:


> I think I'm going to go back to EDCing the Haiku AND the Clicky together for a little bit again. So many good EDC lights, so few pockets.  I really love my Mule/Haiku pair, but there was something cool about the Haiku and Clicky combining forces to fight the darkness.
> 
> Did anyone else who has both go to carrying one of each rather than one or the other? It seems the only sensible way to do it.


I'm usually carrying my Haiku and Clicky in combination with each seeing plenty of usage!


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## nbp (Feb 3, 2012)

Thanks Andrew 'n Pete. Looks like I am in good company.  Now I just need to tuck a Muyshondt in my pocket too and I'll have all favorite creators with me all the time.


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## kaichu dento (Feb 3, 2012)

I've got my bronze Ion in my watch pocket...


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## nbp (Jul 6, 2014)

Bump for a great thread since it applies closely to a recent discussion in the HDS thread. I'm due for a re-read of this one anyways. 


Sent from my iPhone using Candlepowerforums


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## yoyoman (Jul 6, 2014)

I recently received the HDS Clickie 170 Nichia 219B and an Haiku 3S XP-G2 NW. Very similar in many ways and I was thinking of writing something. I'll add to this thread when I get around to it.


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## pjandyho (Jul 6, 2014)

yoyoman said:


> I recently received the HDS Clickie 170 Nichia 219B and an Haiku 3S XP-G2 NW. Very similar in many ways and I was thinking of writing something. I'll add to this thread when I get around to it.


Would be interested to hear your opinion in regards to how both their beams compare.


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## yoyoman (Jul 7, 2014)

The beams are very similar. But the Haiku has a more concentrated hot spot and more throw. Both have plenty of spill.


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## the.Mtn.Man (Jul 7, 2014)

I've owned a Clicky and currently own two Rotaries, one cool white which my wife uses and a 120 lumen high CRI that's my everyday carry. As far as I'm concerned, I can't think of a better light than the HDS Rotary. The easy selection of any arbitrary output, the customizable interface, and the "built like a tank" construction make it the best flashlight I've ever owned. My high CRI Rotary has been dropped more times than I can count, my wife keeps hers clipped to her keys where it has suffered untold abuse, and despite it all they remain dependable tools.

Granted, I've never owned a McGizmo Haiku and probably never will for several reason. First, the price. I understand why they cost as much as they do, but it's outside of my comfort zone; however, that's less of a concern than my other two complaints. 1) No sub-lumen mode. A low-low is one of the most valued features on my HDS lights, and I would find the Haiku generally less useful as a result. And 2) I really dislike flashlights that remember the last used setting. Expecting a light to come on low and then blinding yourself when it comes on high is annoying and could be dangerous in the right (or wrong) situation. I prefer lights that are predictable and always come on at the lowest setting no matter what.

McGizmo makes great lights, and trust me, the Haiku is mighty tempting, and I've come close to pulling the trigger once or twice, but I know those little things would only annoy me.


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## pjandyho (Jul 7, 2014)

yoyoman said:


> The beams are very similar. But the Haiku has a more concentrated hot spot and more throw. Both have plenty of spill.


Thanks! Was contemplating to get either one of them.


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## yoyoman (Jul 8, 2014)

pjandyho, The proper answer is to get both.

This is a very interesting thread with some strong opinions. I've read enough posts to see that some participants have both lights and enjoy them, some participants have one and see the benefits of the brand they have and may perceive disadvantages of the other brand. I have both lights and other high quality lights (e.g. Tain, Oveready). I am not politically correct, but diversity is good and the key to diversity is inclusion. It isn't enough just to have other lights, it is important to include them in your EDC rotation and use them.

I like and use my HDS clickies. I have 2: the 250 CW and the 170 219B. I like and use them both. I like the UI and the ability to program each level to meet my needs. I haven't had a problem with either switch, but recognize that they are electronic components and could fail. This doesn't stop me from using them for several reasons. I confess to being a flashaholic and I always have at least one back up. I must be boring because I don't find myself in critical situations where the light must work and turn on in a specific mode. I use sub-lumen lights, but to be transparent, I have other lights that better serve this purpose than the HDS clickies. I do not baby my lights nor do I abuse them. They get dropped, they get scratched, they get dirty, etc. and I appreciate the robustness of the HDS lights. 

I like and use my McGizmos. I have several: Sundrop XRU with a Nichia 219A LE and Moddoolar 18500 ti body/tail, AA 119V mule, Sapphire GS, Haiku 3S XP-G2, Haiku 3S XM-L and an AquaRam. Some of these are bead blasted and all of them are ergonomic and easy on the eyes. I like the ability, within limits, to lego (at one point the AA 119v was an Haiku). I've never had to replace a switch, but I have extras and the tools/know how to change a switch if needed. The AquaRam has the ability to program, but I haven't done it and don't see the need. What I really like about the AquaRam is the ability to take an 18650 li-ion. That is something the HDS and Haiku can't do. The 18650 provides much longer runtime than an 16340 and is, IMHO, a big advantage. But the flipside of the coin is the AquaRam is much bigger than either an Haiku or HDS clickie. One of the quirks, or rather design features of the 3S light engine is you need to change modes very quickly. This is to prevent inadvertent mode changes. I actually practice changing modes and still smile and think of Don when I try and fail to change modes. Again, I must be boring because this is not a problem for me. (I actually like failing to change modes because it connects me to the designer.) I like lights that start on Low and I have no problem cycling through modes to get to Low before turning the light off. I never point the light in my face when I turn it on and in situations where protecting my night vision is important, I would be using a different light anyway. My most used Haiku is the XM-L - I love the floody beam because it is so useful, it has punch on high and, although I enjoy NW and hi cri, I'm not a tint snob.

I have a few Tain lights and use them, too. A Zenith, a Flute and Ottavino AAA and 10280. They are beautiful and work. The Ottavino is always in my pocket. Not perfect for every task, but small and useful. I like the UI - tighten to off, loosen to Low and keep loosening to High. Very easy one-handed operation. I have a little problem with the Flute. The trit design is so uniquie and beautiful that I sometimes sit in the dark admiring it. Takes me a few minutes to remember to turn it on. The Zenith is a good looking light, excellent knurling and plenty of trits. Kind of like my dress EDC and I admit to being a little more careful with this light. But if I was carrying it and it dropped or got dirty, so be it.

I also have several Oveready lights. The engineering of their heads and dropins is great. The ability to count cells and adjust output is wonderful. The low voltage warning and cutoff allows me to use unprotected cells. I have triples with different emitters - this provides different tint and beam characteristics. My favorite set up is a Moddoolar head, TL20 tube, bored SF A19 extender, SF tail with zero rez shorty switch. Very small and I can on 2x18350 IMR or 1x18650. I can also go very small with just the TL20 and zero rez shorty in the tail. These lights may be pretty, but they are extremely reliable and very, very tough.

I haven't mentioned customer service or the buying experience. HDS does have some issues. I bought my first one from a retailer - it was in stock and the transaction was fast. I pre-ordered the 219B and had to wait. A long time. But I expected that going in, knew that I could ask for and get a refund at any point and it was not an issue for me. Tain doesn't come out with a new light every month (my wallet thanks him for that) and I've passed on some runs that didn't interest me. Oveready doesn't have everything in stock all the time and I understand why and don't have an issue with that. When they do have what I want in stock, the purchasing experience and customer service are wonderful. Frankly, Don's business model amazes me. Place an email order and get a shipping notice telling you what to pay. And Don actively answers questions on CPF and by email. Don sets the standards and, thankfully, some other custom builders strive to reach his level.

A bit of a ramble, I'm sorry. But the point I'm trying to make is that it is OK to dare to compare. I believe all flashlights are a compromise - runtime vs output/size, flood vs throw, etc. And that's a good thing for me because I can have, use and enjoy different lights. I think you would be very frustrated if you were looking for that one perfect light. Also, I think these lights and some others are in class of their own. These lights have soul, you connect with the designer/maker when you use them and I find them to be a special experience. I have other mainstream lights - they work, they serve a purpose, but they are not in the same league. I work hard and I know that I am lucky that I get to enjoy these lights. I also know that there are much worse addictions.


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## pjandyho (Jul 8, 2014)

Yoyoman,

WOW! That's a whole mouthful! Lol!

I currently own both McGizmo Haiku XM-L and the 120 lumen Hi CRI HDS rotary. I also have a 200 lumen rotary which I hardly ever EDC ever since I got the HCRI 120 lumen rotary.

I used to own a 119 Haiku and 119 Mule, but as of last week they no longer belong to me.

I asked about the beam between the two of them (Haiku neutral and HDS neutral) because I have been thinking of getting only one of the neutral flavor. I can't get both like what you have suggested because lately I am trying to thin down the herd in my collection.

I sort of regretted selling off the Haiku 119 because all I needed was to get the neutral XP-G2 drop-in from Don and just replace it myself. I wished I had thought about it earlier.

But thanks for the helpful advice!


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## yoyoman (Jul 8, 2014)

Sorry for the brain dump. I was surprised that the Haiku 3S XP-G2 had more throw than the HDS Clickie 219B. Actually it makes sense because the 219B die is bigger. If you want more throw and like McGizmo (which you obviously do), it is a pretty easy choice. If the UI and ability to program each level is important, then you can't go wrong with the HDS. I guess the summary of my note is they're all great lights. Get the one that best fits your needs and you'll be happy.


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## calflash (Jul 8, 2014)

On topic - I was going to sell my 119v haiku but swapped it to XP-G2 and now it's a keeper for me! It's a great beam and tint even though it's not hi-cri. I used to have a clicky 170 but it didn't last long before I sold it. I'm waiting for a 250 rotary and am eager to compare since I am so happy with the XP-G2.

off topic - yoyoman, maybe you would like one of the program settings for the aqua series driver. It allows you to change the length of time for the off duration for mode switching. Setting 15 is set to <.5 seconds by default but it can be changed.


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## yoyoman (Jul 8, 2014)

On topic: My Haiku AA 119v just wasn't doing it for me. I put that LE in a mule head, put a new XP-G2 LE in the Haiku head and now they're both keepers. I accomplished by purchasing a new XP-G2 3S mule, letting Don know what I was planning and doing a little lego. The parts don't match yet because the Haiku AA was bead blasted. But I think that is cool and adds a story to the lights. And my Haiku 3S XM-L is fully bead blasted so I know which one is which.

Still on topic: I have a Dark Sucks ti clip on my HDS 250 clickie and the black decorative clip on the 170 219B clickie so I can tell them apart.

Off topic: I've been reading the thread on the Aqua/Terra series driver and I am intrigued. One day I will fill the gap and play with the numerous programming options. But I don't have any major issues with the stock settings. Mode memory is almost as polarizing as PWM - strong opinions. Let me just say that mode memory works for me.


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## calflash (Jul 8, 2014)

My bad. I just read your post again. I thought you were saying that switching modes was difficult because you had to do it so fast but now I see you weren't even talking about the aqua. I really should read more carefully have fun with the programming if/when you do it.


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## nbp (Jul 8, 2014)

Andy - I just bought one of the new neutral 170 Clicky on the MP - I really wanted to try one of these Nichia Clickies. When I get it I can compare it to my Haiku with whatever LEs you want - I have Don's XP-G and 119 and also a datiled 219.


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## pjandyho (Jul 8, 2014)

nbp said:


> Andy - I just bought one of the new neutral 170 Clicky on the MP - I really wanted to try one of these Nichia Clickies. When I get it I can compare it to my Haiku with whatever LEs you want - I have Don's XP-G and 119 and also a datiled 219.


Thanks Nick! That would be great! I would like to know the difference between the neutral XP-G2 vs the 119. I love the 119 but ever since the passing away of my best friend, I haven't been doing much if any camping for the last one year. Being in a city that is brightly lit, the 119 is kind of a little underwhelming. What I would like to know is if I will see a marked increase in output and/or throw versus the 119. Thanks in advance!


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## nbp (Jul 8, 2014)

Oh sorry, my mistake Andy. I misunderstood. I don't have the XP-G2 but rather the older XP-G from Don. Somehow I read that that you were looking to compare the HDS 219 to Don's Nichia offering. Well, if I can help at all with the various lights and engines I have I will be happy to.


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## pjandyho (Jul 8, 2014)

nbp said:


> Oh sorry, my mistake Andy. I misunderstood. I don't have the XP-G2 but rather the older XP-G from Don. Somehow I read that that you were looking to compare the HDS 219 to Don's Nichia offering. Well, if I can help at all with the various lights and engines I have I will be happy to.


If you can compare the HDS 170 neutral clicky against the 119 Haiku, that would be great too. Since I used to own a Haiku 119 until last week when it was sold, I could at least have an idea how it compares to the 170 neutral clicky or rotary.


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## calflash (Jul 9, 2014)

Pjandyho - I'm sorry about your friend. Death is quite the enemy. On the subject of the 119 to XP-G2, I will say I felt the same as you about the 119. But the XP-G2 has noticeably better throw and output to me than the 119v I had. I think you would find the same noticeable difference. Hopefully some beamshots will be able to help you make the call


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## pjandyho (Jul 9, 2014)

calflash said:


> Pjandyho - I'm sorry about your friend. Death is quite the enemy. On the subject of the 119 to XP-G2, I will say I felt the same as you about the 119. But the XP-G2 has noticeably better throw and output to me than the 119v I had. I think you would find the same noticeable difference. Hopefully some beamshots will be able to help you make the call


Thanks! That sounds good to me. I wonder if anyone here has both the XP-G2 and 119 Haiku to make a beam shot?


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## calflash (Jul 19, 2014)

I've had a chance to compare a rotary to my haiku for the first time. I think someday in the not so distant future I'd like to share some more detailed thoughts but for now, this is where I am at:

Whats the better, the haiku or the rotary? Well, which of a bird's wings is more important, the left or the right? I have therefore decided the best solution is... HDS in my left pocket and Haiku in my right pocket. 


P.S. - I'm right handed


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## tab665 (Feb 18, 2015)

bumping a good thread. earlier in the thread there were in my opinion two main reasons for choosing the HDS over the Mcgizmo. the first was lack of of a true low on the Mcgizmo. the second was that the Mcgizmo was significantly higher in price. while the low modes argument still stands on the same ground, the price discrepancy has changed the past year. with the substantial price increase for the HDS lights, does that sway anyone's opinions towards the Mcgizmo as the prices grow closer between the two?


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## nbp (Feb 19, 2015)

One of my favorite threads! I can't give up my McGizmos or my HDSs. I maintain that buying both is the only way to go.


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## recDNA (Feb 19, 2015)

Is it true Haiku max is only 0.5 amps?


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## F89 (Feb 19, 2015)

recDNA said:


> Is it true Haiku max is only 0.5 amps?



My Haiku with 119V LE has a high of 660mA which is the highest available in a Haiku (with the 3V LE), the old 119 had a max of 500mA, and in other McGizmo offerings the 119V can handle up to 1.5 amps.

I also have two HDS clickies, a 170N with Nichia 219B and a Hyper Red.
Comparing the Haiku with the 170N I find that on high they both put out comparable amounts of light across the entire beam with advantage going to the Haiku with a brighter and better formed hot spot and smooth flood transition, also the 170N has a slightly ringy and mildly uneven beam from one side to the other.
In use they both have a very useful and pleasing beam though, as stated, advantage goes to the Haiku.

Regarding colour rendering the Haiku takes the lead there too, while the 170N does a good job, the Haiku has whiter whites and brighter more true to life colour representation.
The Haiku basically has excellent HCRI and the 170N good to above average.

The main differences comes down to the user interface, ergonomics and aesthetics which both have their merits in. 
One with a programable, multi output electronic switch and the other with a basic 3 speed clicky switch. Regarding interface I think both are excellent and while one has many more options I think to choose a winner it really depends on how you're using the light for particular tasking so for me it's a tie for varied general use without going into various scenarios.
Ergonomics on both are excellent and once again may vary on application and personal preference.
Aesthetics wise they both look good, titanium is great stuff and HDS anodisation is one of the best, and again probably will vary on application and personal preference.

Choosing only one would be difficult for me and dependent on usage intended. I love them both for different reasons and use my clickies for work mainly, the Hyper Red only gets used for work, and my Haiku for everything else although sometimes the 170N when I need a really low low for EDC.
These two lights represent the best available out there for EDC sized lights in my opinion.


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## tab665 (Aug 22, 2015)

ive been lurking in the McGizmo sub forum for over a year now. i still haven't pulled the trigger on one due to the lack of a true low, once there is a lower low i will be all over it. maybe one day! as for HDS's the UI and programming seem entirely too daunting for me to take that plunge. looking at the HDS threads it seems like people are talking a different language.


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## nbp (Aug 23, 2015)

One of my all time favorite threads reawakens! 

Many have lamented the lack of a moonlight mode on the Haiku only to buy one and fall in love immediately. Don't miss out on what could be!!

HDS is not that complicated actually. The manual is hard when you don't have the light in your hand but once you do it all makes sense. Don't wait, buy one now!


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## Lantern32 (Aug 23, 2015)

Hello everyone. Could someone please provide me a link to where I may purchase a McGizmo light? Or do I need to contact Don?


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## archimedes (Aug 23, 2015)

Yes, you just eMail him. Detailed instructions are found in the McGizmo subforum ....


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## nbp (Aug 23, 2015)

This thread has the relevant ordering information for McGizmo.


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## Lantern32 (Aug 23, 2015)

Thanks!


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## pjandyho (Aug 23, 2015)

It is with much reluctance that I must part with my once very beloved Haiku XM-L in place of another HDS rotary. I love the bling and the ergonomics of the Haiku, but ultimately the UI and overall practicality of the HDS rotary won me over. I no longer see the need to have the Haiku sitting on my desk and performing the role of a white elephant. Here's welcoming the new HDS 200 lumens HCRI rotary! Just gotta love the tint of this new baby!


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## nbp (Aug 23, 2015)

You're selling your Haiku?! Sorry Andy, I don't think we can be friends anymore. Friends don't let friends go without both McGizmos and HDSs. :mecry::buddies:


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## Lantern32 (Aug 23, 2015)

pjandyho said:


> It is with much reluctance that I must part with my once very beloved Haiku XM-L in place of another HDS rotary. I love the bling and the ergonomics of the Haiku, but ultimately the UI and overall practicality of the HDS rotary won me over. I no longer see the need to have the Haiku sitting on my desk and performing the role of a white elephant. Here's welcoming the new HDS 200 lumens HCRI rotary! Just gotta love the tint of this new baby!



Wow!


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## pjandyho (Aug 23, 2015)

nbp said:


> You're selling your Haiku?! Sorry Andy, I don't think we can be friends anymore. Friends don't let friends go without both McGizmos and HDSs. :mecry::buddies:


Lol! Did not intend to sell it at first but the buyer was persistent and so after much considerations... Well...


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## nbp (Aug 23, 2015)

Is that all your McGizmos gone now? I recall you sold some in the past too. I've had too many HDSs over the years too, I'm down to just two right now. A Twisty 85Tr, and a Clicky N170. I have one of the NRA Blue Clicky 325 from the Group Buy on order, so someday that will come in and I'll have 3. Still have 4.5 McGizmos though. Can't bear to get rid of those.


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## yoyoman (Aug 23, 2015)

I respect your decision. To me, the Haiku XM-L, of all the Haikus, is most unlike the HDS. The floody beam with some punch on high, is different from the hot spot/spill of the HDS and XP-G2/Nichia 119(V) Haikus. The cool tint is fine for certain or even most uses. On the other hand, the UI of the Rotary is great.


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## Lantern32 (Aug 23, 2015)

yoyoman said:


> I respect your decision. To me, the Haiku XM-L, of all the Haikus, is most unlike the HDS. The floody beam with some punch on high, is different from the hot spot/spill of the HDS and XP-G2/Nichia 119(V) Haikus. The cool tint is fine for certain or even most uses. On the other hand, the UI of the Rotary is great.



Those HDS lights are extremely cool! I love the titanium design of the Haiku, but that fully potted HDS light is extremely awesome too!


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## tab665 (Aug 24, 2015)

after scouring the forums more ive determined that if i were to get one, itd probably be a mcgizmo. then its the issue of what kind of head and body(leaning towards sundrop and 14500 body), what LED, and rather or not to go truly versitile and go with the AA converter and run *gasp* regular AA batteries. anyone with experience with both care to comment on the output on AA's? i believe with the haiku's beam 100 or so lumens cuts the mustard, but im concerned about the sundrops floodier beam not delivering enough oomph when walking outdoors.


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## pjandyho (Aug 24, 2015)

nbp said:


> Is that all your McGizmos gone now? I recall you sold some in the past too. I've had too many HDSs over the years too, I'm down to just two right now. A Twisty 85Tr, and a Clicky N170. I have one of the NRA Blue Clicky 325 from the Group Buy on order, so someday that will come in and I'll have 3. Still have 4.5 McGizmos though. Can't bear to get rid of those.


Yup, they are all gone. I now have 6 HDS lights but may let go the 170 neutral rotary since I now have the 200 HCRI rotary. May even let go the very first 200 lumen cool white rotary from the first run since I don't use it much now.



yoyoman said:


> I respect your decision. To me, the Haiku XM-L, of all the Haikus, is most unlike the HDS. The floody beam with some punch on high, is different from the hot spot/spill of the HDS and XP-G2/Nichia 119(V) Haikus. The cool tint is fine for certain or even most uses. On the other hand, the UI of the Rotary is great.


Not sure if you are aware of this, but there is the 325 lumen XP-L HDS which has a very nice flood like beam. I did not buy that but however got myself into the group buy organized by Hogokansatsukan for a 4000K neutral tint XP-L group buy. Now I have a HDS with neutral white tint and floody beam that runs much brighter than the Haiku XM-L. That's also why the Haiku got obsoleted, in my opinion. The 200 lumen HCRI rotary has got a Nichia 219 in there and that too is brighter than the Haiku. But like I said, the main reason for me giving up my Haikus has more to do with me preferring the UI of the HDS over the McGizmo.


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## rickyro (Aug 24, 2015)

pjandyho said:


> Yup, they are all gone. I now have 6 HDS lights but may let go the 170 neutral rotary since I now have the 200 HCRI rotary. May even let go the very first 200 lumen cool white rotary from the first run since I don't use it much now.
> 
> 
> Not sure if you are aware of this, but there is the 325 lumen XP-L HDS which has a very nice flood like beam. I did not buy that but however got myself into the group buy organized by Hogokansatsukan for a 4000K neutral tint XP-L group buy. Now I have a HDS with neutral white tint and floody beam that runs much brighter than the Haiku XM-L. That's also why the Haiku got obsoleted, in my opinion. The 200 lumen HCRI rotary has got a Nichia 219 in there and that too is brighter than the Haiku. But like I said, the main reason for me giving up my Haikus has more to do with me preferring the UI of the HDS over the McGizmo.




What I have now: Haiku AA XP-G2, Rotary 170N

Like Haiku more:
1. great aesthetics and design, beautiful to look and hold in the hand
2. great tint, a little warmer than 170N, perfect for night use
3. great beam. 170N has donut. Haiku is just perfect. The more concentrated hotspot is actually great, very perfectly defined and clear bordering to the spill. very much like the hotspot of Peak Eiger Oveready 219
4. great clip. though a little too hard. But Rotary's clip is a nightmare, even with the new universal clip.

Like Rotary more:
1. great UI, the best of all lights
2. now with 18680 tube, great working time (almost seven hours!)
3. low profile, great workhorse, will be better if we can have a real firm clip design. 

I really would like to upgrade my Rotary to the new 200 high CRI due to no donuts and better tint. I also would like McGizmo to update his Haiku driver to 1. always start on low, 2. better space between low and middle or to have free programmability like that of Aqua/Terra.

But for the time being, I will keep both.


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## rickyro (Aug 24, 2015)

I also have one Clicky 170 XP-G2. But I think it's no match to Haiku AA.

The programability is a plus, but it is quite complicated and may not be so useful as it seems. Change of mode is very fast with Haiku by half press, but not so fast with Clicky.

The tint and beam is not a match to Haiku AA.

I prefer AA than 16340 batteries.


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## yoyoman (Aug 24, 2015)

I have 2 HDS 170Ns. Clicky and Rotary and I like the UI on both. I spent some time programming the clicky and now the modes are just how I like them. I'm thinking of getting the flood reflector. Like a true flashaholic, I have both Haikus and HDS lights and see a need for both. I have 1 light with an XP-L emitter and don't like the tint. But at some point I'll try a neutral one. The weak link with both the Haiku and HDS is the (R)CR123 IMHO. But (R)CR123 is a great size for an EDC light and I don't think they are going extinct. I have an AquaRam and the 18650 is a big step forward. I may also get the HDS 18660 tube. I also like the McGizmo AA light engine and swap between mule and Haiku heads. I respect your decision and logic, but I can't imagine not having a Haiku.


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## pjandyho (Aug 24, 2015)

yoyoman said:


> I have 2 HDS 170Ns. Clicky and Rotary and I like the UI on both. I spent some time programming the clicky and now the modes are just how I like them. I'm thinking of getting the flood reflector. Like a true flashaholic, I have both Haikus and HDS lights and see a need for both. I have 1 light with an XP-L emitter and don't like the tint. But at some point I'll try a neutral one. The weak link with both the Haiku and HDS is the (R)CR123 IMHO. But (R)CR123 is a great size for an EDC light and I don't think they are going extinct. I have an AquaRam and the 18650 is a big step forward. I may also get the HDS 18660 tube. I also like the McGizmo AA light engine and swap between mule and Haiku heads. I respect your decision and logic, but I can't imagine not having a Haiku.


I love the floody beam on my Haiku XM-L but the tint is kind of weird. It is a little cyanish and mild greenishness combined. In actual use it is ok but failed badly when compared to many other cool white lights which I have. The Haiku just can't seem to bring out the colors as much as other cool white lights in my possession. I still use it and love it because the beam is so floody which is great for EDC. In fact I loved it so much I have carried it for over two years in my pocket as my daily EDC.

Somehow, along the way, the HDS rotary started getting more and more of my attention. In fact I did once commented somewhere that it is always the Haiku and HDS with me everyday, with Haiku being the number one choice and HDS the backup choice. I guess this unfaithful man in me has had a change of heart? Lol! Anyway, I hope I am not regretting giving up the Haiku, and you guys are doing a great job in helping me regret my decision. I love it, and I still do, but it is sitting on the shelf gathering dust for many months, so...


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## leon2245 (Aug 24, 2015)

> I love it, and I still do, but it is sitting on the shelf gathering dust for many months, so...



so I think you're still simply not _allowed_ to like the HDS more.


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## pjandyho (Aug 24, 2015)

leon2245 said:


> so I think you're still simply not _allowed_ to like the HDS more.


Hahaha! Maybe when Don comes up with something different. Like XP-L HI for throw and XP-L HO for flood? Right now as it is, I will be happy with what I have.


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## nbp (Aug 24, 2015)

leon2245 said:


> so I think you're still simply not _allowed_ to like the HDS more.



Now you're getting it.


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## tab665 (Aug 27, 2015)

it does seem that mcgizmos are starting to get behind in the output category. one thing HDS has going for them is that while they aren't pushing their LEDs any harder than they were a couple years ago they do seem to stay a little more current with their emitters. gradually increasing output as better binned LEDs become available. also, from what ive seen in photos it seems like the electronics of the HDS light seem to be on another level as far as fit and finish is concerned.


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## Tixx (Aug 27, 2015)

tab665 said:


> ive been lurking in the McGizmo sub forum for over a year now. i still haven't pulled the trigger on one due to the lack of a true low, once there is a lower low i will be all over it. maybe one day! as for HDS's the UI and programming seem entirely too daunting for me to take that plunge. looking at the HDS threads it seems like people are talking a different language.



Get a Rotary and you it is not complicated at all. Turn the dial, that is the output.  Some hidden modes, but that is easy.


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## Lantern32 (Aug 31, 2015)

Tixx said:


> Get a Rotary and you it is not complicated at all. Turn the dial, that is the output.  Some hidden modes, but that is easy.



Isn't there a hidden candle mode? I saw a video in which the light flickered like a candle


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## GearHunter (Aug 31, 2015)

Lantern32 said:


> Isn't there a hidden candle mode? I saw a video in which the light flickered like a candle



yep and you can run it on high all day (or till batt dies) and it won't get hot like your new mdc.....


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## Lantern32 (Aug 31, 2015)

GearHunter said:


> yep and you can run it on high all day (or till batt dies) and it won't get hot like your new mdc.....



Please explain how!!! That light is about 100 lumens dimmer than my flashlights, but it still should get fairly warm? Doesn't my light get hot because of the good thermal conduction?


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## GearHunter (Aug 31, 2015)

Lantern32 said:


> Please explain how!!! That light is about 100 lumens dimmer than my flashlights, but it still should get fairly warm? Doesn't my light get hot because of the good thermal conduction?



id be willing to bet if you threw them both in a sphere you would find the difference is closer then 100 lm.....

here re ill let Henry explain it....

"*Do you overdrive your LEDs?* Hide answer...We do not overdrive our LEDs. Our advanced technology allows our lights to provide superior light output without overdriving the LED.
We do not overdrive our LEDs because overdriving an LEDproduces excessive heat, reduces the efficiency of the LED, reduces runtimes, reduces the reliability of the LED and rapidly ages the LED - which permanently reduces light output.
For maximum reliability and safety, we monitor and regulate the temperature of the LED. Heat is the primary enemy of your LEDand so regulating the LED temperature prevents premature aging, increases reliability and increases efficiency. In addition, regulating the LED's temperature prevents the flashlight from becoming dangerously hot and injuring someone who touches it."
Hide answer...


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## Lantern32 (Aug 31, 2015)

GearHunter said:


> id be willing to bet if you threw them both in a sphere you would find the difference is closer then 100 lm.....
> 
> here re ill let Henry explain it....
> 
> ...



Very interesting; however, I drove my MDC insanely hot, and let it cool down. The output is still the same. The heat sinking in my MDC is very good, and that is why I notice the heat. They may not overdrive their LED, but they charge an extra $100 for it! If rather have 2 MDC lights that I could beat up, rather than one HDS light. Not to mention the MDC light is brighter too LOL!


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## nbp (Aug 31, 2015)

They're very different lights. I love the MDC, but it is not programmable like the HDS. You are paying for very advanced electronics. It's not exactly an apples to apples comparison.


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## Lantern32 (Aug 31, 2015)

nbp said:


> They're very different lights. I love the MDC, but it is not programmable like the HDS. You are paying for very advanced electronics. It's not exactly an apples to apples comparison.



Yes. MDC is basic, and HDS is extremely High tech! Except id love them to use that high tech and get an emitter with a couple more lumens


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## pjandyho (Aug 31, 2015)

Lantern32 said:


> Yes. MDC is basic, and HDS is extremely High tech! Except id love them to use that high tech and get an emitter with a couple more lumens


325 lumens vs 400 lumens? You can hardly see a difference but it definitely feels hotter for the MDC. I would rather take a cooler light in my hands that runs on a flat regulation than one hot light, but that is just me.


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## Grizzman (Sep 1, 2015)

I've been considering a McGizmo for several years, but haven't done it yet. I've got other lights that equal the HDS' tech, but I don't have a full sized titanium one yet.



pjandyho said:


> I would rather take a cooler light in my hands that runs on a flat regulation than one hot light, but that is just me.



So you're stating that the XP-L HDS outputs a flatly regulated 325 lumens while not getting hot, which is in direct conflict with the info GearHunter posted above? Given the choice between cooler and non-flat regulation and hotter and actual flat regulation, I choose the latter.


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## pjandyho (Sep 1, 2015)

Grizzman said:


> I've been considering a McGizmo for several years, but haven't done it yet. I've got other lights that equal the HDS' tech, but I don't have a full sized titanium one yet.
> 
> 
> 
> So you're stating that the XP-L HDS outputs a flatly regulated 325 lumens while not getting hot, which is in direct conflict with the info GearHunter posted above? Given the choice between cooler and non-flat regulation and hotter and actual flat regulation, I choose the latter.


There is no conflict whatsoever at all. The HDS XP-L is at 325 lumens and will step down a little in output after 40 secs if burst mode is enabled, and thereafter maintains a flat regulation throughout. That is to ensure a better run time without excessive heat build up. User could always choose to a) disable burst mode which will drastically reduce run time and cause the light to get hot, or b) choose to periodically depress the tail switch for about half a second and it will jump back up to 325 lumens for another 40 secs.

Do note that I have no idea which MDC model is Lantern32 referring to. Based on another thread, he claimed his MDC is a 400 lumen light, but as far as I know MDC is only available in either 250 (single CR123) or 500 lumens (with 2x CR123).


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## Launch Mini (Oct 19, 2015)

I have 2 Haiku's and really like both of them.
I see today an HDS 200l 219B clicky for sale.
I've wanted an 219 light but am still torn if I want to add an HDS into my lineup or eventually just get a 219 Haiku.
I've held an HDS, and did find it a bit heavier than the Haiku. 
Of course I don't actually need another light...


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## scout24 (Oct 19, 2015)

Don't need another light? Blasphemy!  Personally, the beauty of the HDS is in it's utility as well as the build quality. Think 007 like programmability in a single cell light. You can make it almost anything you want... 30 lumen max in all 4 "slots" so you can hand it to your school age nephew with no worries? Done. Power out for a week and want moonlight, half a lumen, five and strobe? Done. Set it up however you want, as often as you want...  Emitter swaps seem fairly easy, Henry will reprogram and repair them, etc. Don't get me started on the Rotary. Same four "slots"... My apologies in advance to your wallet. All this said, I still own two Haikus, a 119v and a Datiled-powered XP-L Neutral, both 1x123 flavor...


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## archimedes (Oct 19, 2015)

I think the new McGizmo (programmable) HiveLD driver makes this a tougher choice ....


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## GearHunter (Oct 19, 2015)

scout24 said:


> Don't need another light? Blasphemy!  Personally, the beauty of the HDS is in it's utility as well as the build quality. Think 007 like programmability in a single cell light. You can make it almost anything you want... 30 lumen max in all 4 "slots" so you can hand it to your school age nephew with no worries? Done. Power out for a week and want moonlight, half a lumen, five and strobe? Done. Set it up however you want, as often as you want...  Emitter swaps seem fairly easy, Henry will reprogram and repair them, etc. Don't get me started on the Rotary. Same four "slots"... My apologies in advance to your wallet. All this said, I still own two Haikus, a 119v and a Datiled-powered XP-L Neutral, both 1x123 flavor...



you forgot to mention just what a great deal on a great light he saw for sale!!!


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## kaichu dento (Oct 20, 2015)

Launch Mini said:


> I have 2 Haiku's and really like both of them...but am still torn if I want to add an HDS into my lineup or eventually just get a 219 Haiku.
> I've held an HDS, and did find it a bit heavier than the Haiku.


Scout pretty well nails the reasons that my HDS is my main go-to light anymore. 
My Haiku feels absolutely perfect in hand and for a wide range of uses is perfect, but not all situations, with absolutely no 'real' low setting, and no battery saving auto-shutoff, which left me with no light at all too many times due to accidental activation.
You already said it and I'm with you, the HDS is a bit bulkier but the UI really make this light for me.
All three of us have been here a long time and you know that both Scout and I have been through a lot of lights before settling in on the HDS choice, and the Haiku was one of the points along the way.
Get one, you're going to like it enough that you'll find yourself not minding the extra bulk, and not even noticing really.


archimedes said:


> I think the new McGizmo (programmable) HiveLD driver makes this a tougher choice ....


Yes it does indeed, but unfortunately no auto-shutoff, although Rush is talking about doing that in the future.


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## nbp (Oct 20, 2015)

All those lights and and no HDSs, Launch?! What're you waiting for?! A Hi CRI Clicky is a thing to behold.


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## the.Mtn.Man (Oct 20, 2015)

tab665 said:


> it does seem that mcgizmos are starting to get behind in the output category. one thing HDS has going for them is that while they aren't pushing their LEDs any harder than they were a couple years ago they do seem to stay a little more current with their emitters. gradually increasing output as better binned LEDs become available. also, from what ive seen in photos it seems like the electronics of the HDS light seem to be on another level as far as fit and finish is concerned.


HDS lights are super simple. Click the button to turn it on. Click again to turn it off. If you have a Rotary, turn the dial for your desired brightness.

To access the other presets once the light is on, you have to double click (like a computer mouse), triple click, or execute a click followed by a click-and-hold. Not hard at all, and the defaults are nicely spaced out of the box, so you really don't have to reprogram it if you don't want to, although programming is really not difficult either, but I'll save that for another time.


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## Launch Mini (Oct 20, 2015)

Trying to find the link for that HDS for sale. I know my eyes are bad, but if someone can PM the link that would be appreciated.


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## GearHunter (Oct 20, 2015)

Launch Mini said:


> Trying to find the link for that HDS for sale. I know my eyes are bad, but if someone can PM the link that would be appreciated.



sorry I just traded it.


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## Launch Mini (Oct 20, 2015)

I snoozed & lost 


GearHunter said:


> sorry I just traded it.


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## the.Mtn.Man (Oct 20, 2015)

Lantern32 said:


> Very interesting; however, I drove my MDC insanely hot, and let it cool down. The output is still the same. The heat sinking in my MDC is very good, and that is why I notice the heat. They may not overdrive their LED, but they charge an extra $100 for it! If rather have 2 MDC lights that I could beat up, rather than one HDS light. Not to mention the MDC light is brighter too LOL!


You can beat up an HDS light. They'll take anything you throw at them... or throw them at. Henry's design process includes literally beating on a light until it fails, eliminate the weakness, and repeat until he's satisfied.


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## GearHunter (Oct 20, 2015)

the.Mtn.Man said:


> You can beat up an HDS light. They'll take anything you throw at them... or throw them at. Henry's design process includes literally beating on a light until it fails, eliminate the weakness, and repeat until he's satisfied.




+100


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## kaichu dento (Oct 22, 2015)

the.Mtn.Man said:


> You can beat up an HDS light. They'll take anything you throw at them... or throw them at. Henry's design process includes literally beating on a light until it fails, eliminate the weakness, and repeat until he's satisfied.


Or you can slide down the highway on your Haiku and have it still look good after a little cleanup. 

Better yet, you can let your house burn down with your Haiku inside, blow the battery up and have the engine blast out the front and Don will completely rebuild it for you and you'll have the coolest looking fired finish around.

Both true stories.


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