# SUPERLIGHTS III



## Mr Ted Bear

*Overview*

For starters, checkout Kenshiros SuperLights Shootout website .

From SS#1, we learned a number of things

1) Basically two kinds of lights, the one‘s that illuminate, and the one’s that throw.

2) HIDs are like exotic animals… the Maxabeam and MegaRay are the most rare, capable of throwing distances which exceed the visual acuity of the human eye.. It is nice to know there are lights that can throw 1500 yards, but without binoculars, who cares? These lights are for special applications, and don’t address my needs as an illumination device (hey, I’m just a civilian flashaholic !!!)

3) The top dogs from SS#1 were the McCulloch X990 and the KumKang v2. If you want to know why these were the best lights, read the SuperLights Shootout website

4) In the beginning of 2005, we had SS#2 and the introduction of the Havis Shield HID, the SureFire Beast, the WolfEyes Crocodile, and some very interesting suuperlight mods. In the end, the X990 and KumgKang came out on top.

5) Now, 12 months later at year end 2005, we have some new kids on the block: Rayzorlite, Rayzorbeam, XeRay, and the COSTCO HID (mid 2005). The Thor 10 and Cyclops 15 million CP units will also be included for reference.


So, will the XeRay (50 watt), and the Rayzors (35/50 watt mode) surpass the reining champions? And what about the COSTCO HID? With it’s 9” reflector, one would expect it to ace the competition, but will it?








*Methodology*

Performance FIRST !

The shootout will compare apples to apples, and oranges to oranges. Meaning, first we will compare the units at the 35 watt level, and then in round 2, look at the units that advertised 50 watt output. Then, the summary will look at all the units combined; might be that some of the 35 watt units perform on par with the “new kids” at 50 watts.


Details will then follow...

Performance is #1, but there are other factors which can influence the buying decision. Size and weight for starters. Water resistance (or lack of) is another. Runtime also is a critical factor (runtime vs lumen tradeoff?) How hard is it to charge, and how long. Then there’ s the intangible tests, like a 36 inch drop ...


Anyways it won't be long now... 






As a side note, I would offer the following:

Kenshiro (and his wife) arrived yesterday afternoon bout 4:30. We spent a hour or so, reviewing the "new units", and then dinner. We then proceeded to the "range" to take pictures, and followed up the session debriefing over coffee. By my watch, Kenshiro probably got home just past midnight.

Bright and eary this am, Kenshiro and I were on the phone. It was only a 4 1/2 hour conversation, at which time, both of us had to do things. 


What I am trying to say is that there is more to this shootout than meets they eye. It took less than an hour to take the pcitrues.... and more than 10 man hours have been spend anyalying them... and still no finished review


----------



## MorpheusT1

:buddies:


----------



## cue003

IT HAS BEGUN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

:rock:

Really looking to hear more about the instant restrike that the RayzorBeam has and why the Rayzorlite doesn't have the same feature..... 

Weight, runtime and overall output matter quite a bit to me... I guess so does durability since I don't want to pay an arm and a leg for a light that if even slightly dropped I end up SOL and out of money. That would not be good.

Looking forward to the results.

Curtis


----------



## Trashman




----------



## BVH

Oh Goodie!! Can't wait. I'm thinking seriously of buying one of these super performers based on the results. I wasn't even thinking about buying one before the shootout materialized. Way to go, Mr. Ted Bear!


----------



## jayflash

Thank you, Gentlemen, for sharing your time and information. I'll be looking this way.


----------



## PoliceScannerMan

Wow! I cant wait to see full size pics!! If you stare at the little pics on the top row, it looks like the bottom row of pics dims a little bit.

-PSM

Thanks for doing this! :goodjob:


----------



## tvodrd

And you didn't invite me!  

 (!)

Larry


----------



## XeVision

cue003 said:


> IT HAS BEGUN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> Really looking to hear more about the instant restrike that the RayzorBeam has and why the Rayzorlite doesn't have the same feature..


 
The XeRay by XeVision IS hot restrikeable, this will have no significant adverse affects on life. No need to wait to restrike!


----------



## cue003

Ok, there are 12 lights selected to participate but yet there are 13 shots with some sort of light in them.... HMMM..... who/what is the mystery light? 

Anways... *I like (top row) 2nd, 3rd, 5th and 6th with the 2nd picture being my first choice*.... not sure which lights those are but the output from the little pics look good. Not too keen at this point for anything in the bottom row. I would need to see larger pictures of those shots. 

Curtis


----------



## gregw

Anxiously waiting for the results... :sweat: 

Thanks for taking the time to do this and to provide an impartial/objective "eye" to the testing of these SuperLights! :goodjob:


----------



## missionaryman

As the late Big Kev used to say "I'm Excited!!"


----------



## That_Guy

Who wants to play "Match the lights to the picture" with me? I'll go first. Bottom left is the SF Beast. Bottom 2nd from the left is the Costco HID. Top left is the Rayzorbeam with 4100k bulb at 50W, bottom right is Rayzorbeam with 6000k bulb at 50W, although I'm not certain about the wattage. I have ideas about the others, but I'll let the rest of you have a go now.


----------



## Kiessling

Great !
Standing by for review ... 
Thanx for the work! :thumbsup:
bernie


----------



## winny

Oh, man. This is going to be fun!


Anyway, if someone wanted to have his/her light tested in SuperLights Shootout IV, what to do? I'm thinking about outthrowing you guys. :naughty:


----------



## cue003

That_Guy said:


> Who wants to play "Match the lights to the picture" with me? I'll go first. Bottom left is the SF Beast. Bottom 2nd from the left is the Costco HID. Top left is the Rayzorbeam with 4100k bulb at 50W, bottom right is Rayzorbeam with 6000k bulb at 50W, although I'm not certain about the wattage. I have ideas about the others, but I'll let the rest of you have a go now.




I forgot that he got the Rayzors with different color temp bulbs.

OK HERE ARE MY GUESSES:

Top row L to R
RB - 4100K, RL - 4100K, Ken 3, X990, KumKang, Costco 10mil, Costco 15mil

Second row L to R
Beast, Thor HID, ???? (maybe RL or RB low output), XeRay - 6000K, RL - 6000K, RB -6000K

I wonder how far off I am.

Thanks for all the efforts and hassle with putting this together and pulling off such an awesome comparision..... and of course thanks for doing it a 3rd time (Superlights III).

Curtis


----------



## jtice

Thanks for all the time and effort you guys are putting into this, !!!!! :rock:
Cant wait for the final results.

So far, from these small teaser shots, I like the 2nd in the top row 

~John


----------



## cmacclel

Ccmachel<<<<I guess that's me  I can't waite for the results!

Mac


----------



## Lunarmodule

cmacclel said:


> Ccmachel<<<<I guess that's me  I can't waite for the results!
> 
> Mac


:lolsign: What's in a name?


:touche:*LET THE GAMES BEGIN...:touche:

*Curtis, you may need to take it easy, the "refresh" function on your browser is screaming for mercy, I can here it from here....:nana:


Mr. Ted Bear,

Thanks for getting the preliminaries up quickly. Curious to know how in depth the comparo will be, will there be plenty of descriptive narrative about the subjective impressions of quality? Any output measurements or standardized runtime tests? Of course pics are the mainstay, but an elaborate opinion would be hugely appreciated. Great effort on your part!


----------



## XeVision

cue003 said:


> Second row L to R Beast, Thor HID, ???? (maybe RL or RB low output), *XeRay - 6000K*, RL - 6000K, RB -6000K I wonder how far off I am. Curtis


 
So you think That the XeRay 50 watt with 4200K bulb is in the lower performance group on the second row. I am quite confident it is on the first row.


----------



## larryk

Hi Jeff, are you still planning on doing the three 24 watt HID lights in the shootout ?


----------



## cue003

XeVision said:


> So you think That the XeRay 50 watt with 4200K bulb is in the lower performance group on the second row. I am quite confident it is on the first row.



If it is... even better.  I had looked back in the other thread and saw the XeRay was mentioned to have a 6000K bulb which generally gives off that white/blueish color. 

Wasn't trying to insult the light at all.. Just making guesses. 

Thanks... i will be quiet now and wait for the results.

Curtis


----------



## CroMAGnet




----------



## PGP

Cant wait for the results!

:thanks: for doing this!

I can come over if you guys need ANY help. Even if it is just to fetch you guys a cup of water while you are doing these grueling tests.  You have my cell #.

Patrick!


----------



## Trashman

More-than-willing spectator, here!


----------



## underdog

That_Guy said:


> Who wants to play "Match the lights to the picture" with me? I'll go first. Bottom left is the SF Beast. Bottom 2nd from the left is the Costco HID. Top left is the Rayzorbeam with 4100k bulb at 50W, bottom right is Rayzorbeam with 6000k bulb at 50W, although I'm not certain about the wattage. I have ideas about the others, but I'll let the rest of you have a go now.


ok, my guess -
RB50, RL50S, RL50W, Xe50W, Xe50S, X99035W, X99035S
SFB, CHID, KKP, RL35W, RL35S, RB28


----------



## MaxaBaker




----------



## Rhino90

cue003 said:


> IT HAS BEGUN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> 
> Really looking to hear more about the instant restrike that the RayzorBeam has and why the Rayzorlite doesn't have the same feature.....
> 
> Curtis



Cue, the Rayzorlite can also be hot/instant restriked. No need to wait. It does not have the flash button for signaling/Morse like the Rayzorbeam.


----------



## Lips

Glad to hear about the instant restrike, Rhino90. That was a question I had in the other thread. Can't wait for the full review. You can see 3 distinctive beams in the small photos!


----------



## WhiteHot

Oooooooooooh! (yay)


----------



## MongoMadness

YEEEEEEHAAAAWWWWW!

I am really excited to see the analysis & reviews!

Thanks Mr. Ted Bear!

Congrats to the Rayzor dudes!


----------



## Mr Ted Bear

so we are doing the runtime tests....






then these guys show up...





give us a few more days...were are working on it


----------



## gregw

Wow... How about a photo of that couch when it catches on fire from all the lumens that are being pointed at it? :laughing:


----------



## farmall

I like that timer on the couch.

I can't wait for the results


----------



## cue003

Nice


----------



## LightTracker

Mr Ted Bear said:


> so we are doing the runtime tests....
> give us a few more days...were are working on it


Did the holiday company who'd previously occupied that couch find themsleves assisting in a superlight shootout?

I'm glad I stumbled upon this thread. I was worried the old Rayzorbeam/lite thread (which was leading up to this event) was gone forever and I'd not learn the end of the saga! 

Pardon my ignorance (which is ample, being a relative NEWBIE to HID), if your chart at the beginning specifically mentions a focusable model - Kumkang - in the earlier shootout, does that mean the later offerings are not focusable? 

Thanks!


----------



## larryk

I'm guessing the three 24 watt flashlights will have very similar beams, color and output.


----------



## Kenshiro

Here we go!

I've posted the photos/review of the "Super shootout 3".

http://home.earthlink.net/~kenshiro2/

I don't really consider these lights as "Superlights", so I just named them "HID lights". If you go to my web site, click on the "HID LIGHTS 2" link on the menu.

So, "Superlights 1" = "Superlight Shootout 1"
"HID lights 1" = "Superlight Shootout 2"
"HID lights 2" = "Superlight Shootout 3"

You'll also notice that the "HID lights 1" doesn't show any page. I'm not done with that yet. 

Anyway, I have a fever, have lost my voice, have been sick since 12/11, and haven't had a good night sleep since then (which is probably why I'm still sick - afterall, it's 5:30AM right now!).

But the show must go on!


----------



## Luna

FYI: the "HID lights 1" = "Superlight Shootout 2" link doesn't work


----------



## That_Guy

Great work as usual Kenshiro and Mr. Ted Bear!

The Rayzors are quite disappointing. However, you only tested the 6000K versions, which are significantly dimmer than the 4100K versions. Did you also receive versions with 4100K bulbs? It looks like these lights have really been hurt by Rayzor's decision to use 6000K bulbs by default as opposed to 4100K bulbs. At 35W the 6000K bulbs would only be putting out around 2400 lumens, which equals around 4000 lumens at 50W. This is only 25% more than the 3200 lumens that 4100K bulbs at 35W put out, which would explain why they aren't much brighter. Also remember that the Rayzorbeam is only 28W at low, which puts it at a slight disadvantage to the others.

I like both the v2 Rayzorbeam and v2 Rayzorlite at 50W. The v2 Rayzorbeam has both good throw and flood in one, and the v2 Rayzorlight out floods the Beast while maintaining better throw. The v1 Rayzorlite is also pretty nice, throwing a wide, even beam. The v1 Rayzorbeam would be good if it wasn’t for the huge pie slice down the middle. The Rayzor reflectors are all quite nice, only being let down by the poor bulbs.

I would like to hear what Rayzor says about the no start issue. An issue as significant as not starting would be pretty hard to not notice.

The XeVision 50W isn't much brighter than the 35W Polarion. Maybe it uses a lower quality bulb that isn't as efficient as the genuine Philips bulb?

You have split it up into 2 sections, one for 35W and one for 50W. Could you please make one giant picture so that I can see how the Rayzors compare at the different settings?

Are there any plans to review each light individually like you did in the first shootout? It would be nice to see what each light is like up close since no one else on CPF has any of these lights so it's hard to get a "feel" for them. This especially applies to the Polarion, which you said had many advanced features, but since no one else on CPF has one it's hard to know what it's like. It would also be nice to know how the new Polarion compares to the old Kumkang. From the spec sheet the new Polarion actually looked worse than the old version, but based or your comments it seems like it's much better.


----------



## Kenshiro

Luna,

I mentioned that I am not done with the "HID lights 1" and thus the page will not work. Please read the post completely before you make any comments.

That Guy,
The Polarion has been available in the US for at least 6 months. I guess there simply hasn't been a thread on it on the CPF. You can get it from Strategos International and other places, but I am not sure they have updated their web site.
You can always e-mail them.
The new Polarion has virtually the same performance as the old Kumkang model. The improvements I mentioned are mainly other factors such as waterproofness and a better battery design.
As for the photos, all were taken at the same setting, so you can simply import any photos you like into your favorite viewing program and compare them yourself. I did not take 35W and 50W photos seperately, I just divided them into two groups for better viewing.


----------



## dwminer

The only thing that I have found on the Polarion is this:
http://meridiantactical.com/kumkang-polarion-hid.html
http://us.st11.yimg.com/store1.yimg.com/I/meridiantactical_1873_37705757
Dave


----------



## XeVision

That_Guy said:


> Great work as usual Kenshiro and Mr. Ted Bear! The XeVision 50W isn't much brighter than the 35W Polarion. Maybe it uses a lower quality bulb that isn't as efficient as the genuine Philips bulb?


 
We use a GE (General Electric) made in Hungary 4200K D2S which we have found offers better lifetime and lumens performance than either Philips or Osram when driven at 50 watts. The GE bulbs are 20% more expensive than their Philips counterparts. The GE bulbs have better lumens maintenance than the others especially at 50 watts. We get well over 100 (about 106) lumens per watt when driven at 50 watts. Name brand 35 watt D2S bulbs (4200K only) are 91 lumens per watt (GE, Osram, Philips).


----------



## Luna

Kenshiro said:


> Luna,
> I mentioned that I am not done with the "HID lights 1" and thus the page will not work. * Please read the post completely before you make any comments.*



Sorry mom. Gee people are too sensitive. I missed it or you editted it while I was replying to the orginal post. I don't know, just trying to help.


----------



## CroMAGnet

MAN! That is a lot of work! You guys are lucky to be doing the testing and actually holding and experiencing these forerunners. Big Cheers to KenShiro and MR. Ted Bear!












I took a few notes while I was reading everything on your site and they were actually questions/requests. I have not noticed these details anywhere so please excuse if they have been mentioned. I also realize that you are not finished and both of you are still adding more info, so just ignore anything that is forthcoming. 

Great work! Thank you 

Can we get individual pics of each light or a clear and labled group pic?
Can we get runtimes on all the lights?
Can we get retail and street price estimates on all lights?
Can we get contact info to purchase all lights?
A set of black and white photos would be a nice addition to demostrate the subtle differences.
I wonder how my li'l ol' USL would look in that shootout. Probably not the throw king but maybe hold it's own in output? Especially with a 3" head!


----------



## That_Guy

XeVision said:


> We use a GE (General Electric) made in Hungary 4200K D2S which we have found offers better lifetime and lumens performance than either Philips or Osram when driven at 50 watts. The GE bulbs are 20% more expensive than their Philips counterparts. The GE bulbs have better lumens maintenance than the others especially at 50 watts. We get well over 100 (about 106) lumens per watt when driven at 50 watts. Name brand 35 watt D2S bulbs (4200K only) are 91 lumens per watt (GE, Osram, Philips).


That's good to hear. Maybe the XeVision uses a shallower reflector than the other lights, which would explain why it doesn't appear much brighter than the 35W units. The best way to compare lumens between the 50W XeVision and the other 35W units would be a ceiling bounce test.


----------



## tvodrd

Cromag, my interest has escalated particularly re the Polarion. (Our USLs aren't _remotely_ in the same league!  But on the upside, you _can_ hold your hand in front of the HIDs.  )

Larry


----------



## brightnorm

tvodrd said:


> Cromag, my interest has escalated particularly re the Polarion. (Our USLs aren't _remotely_ in the same league!  But on the upside, you _can_ hold your hand in front of the HIDs.  )Larry


Are there any lights of the USL's size (10-1/8") and weight (24.3oz) that can outperform the USL in total output and brilliant illumination of a broad swath of terrain?

Many thanks to you and Ted Bear for making this valuable information available to us!

Brightnorm


----------



## MaxaBaker

Wow guys THANK YOU!!!! Excellent pictures as usual!! I can't wait for the write ups!!! 


I must say though I expected more from the Rayzorbeam/lites...........both output and the problem with the switch surprises me.


----------



## NewBie

I was really surprised by how well the Costco lights did. Not bad for a 75 dollar HID, complete.

Those two incandescent Costco lights did alot better than I thought they would, especially for a 20-30 dollar light. Especially when their filaments are underpowered (the battery doesn't supply enough voltage to run the bulbs properly).

Have you had a chance to perform runtime tests on the various lights?

Here is the datasheet for the GE D2S 4100k HID:
http://www.molalla.net/~leeper/ged2shid.pdf


----------



## That_Guy

Good to hear that there will be writeups. I find them much more useful than beamshots alone.


----------



## CroMAGnet

NewBie said:


> I was really surprised by how well the Costco lights did. Not bad for a 75 dollar HID, complete.


Actually $149 now at Harbor Frieght! Here's the CPF thread.

tvodrd: I wonder if my USL would MELT the contestants! ehehh


----------



## gregw

I second the suggestion for purchase/contact information on the Kumkang Polarion since I have not been able to find any information at all.


----------



## cue003

I am also in for information on the Kumkang Polarion. Would be nice for a group buy.

Thanks for all the review information thus far. Very well put together and informative. Looking forward to any/all other information that you guys will be putting up.


----------



## grift

cue003 said:


> I am also in for information on the Kumkang Polarion. Would be nice for a group buy.
> 
> Thanks for all the review information thus far. Very well put together and informative. Looking forward to any/all other information that you guys will be putting up.


 
my ESP tells me that interest in a Polarion group buy will now be a very hot topic.


----------



## That_Guy

I've re-arranged the images so that all the lights can be compared at once.
Zoomed and wide.


----------



## NewBie

Kenshiro said:


> Here we go!
> 
> I've posted the photos/review of the "Super shootout 3".
> 
> http://home.earthlink.net/~kenshiro2/
> 
> I don't really consider these lights as "Superlights", so I just named them "HID lights". If you go to my web site, click on the "HID LIGHTS 2" link on the menu.
> 
> So, "Superlights 1" = "Superlight Shootout 1"
> "HID lights 1" = "Superlight Shootout 2"
> "HID lights 2" = "Superlight Shootout 3"
> 
> You'll also notice that the "HID lights 1" doesn't show any page. I'm not done with that yet.
> 
> Anyway, I have a fever, have lost my voice, have been sick since 12/11, and haven't had a good night sleep since then (which is probably why I'm still sick - afterall, it's 5:30AM right now!).
> 
> But the show must go on!




Ken, could you include daytime photos of your shooting range? If they are already there, could you link me?


----------



## cue003

Is Mr Ted Bear planning on posting more info about this shootout here? I am looking forward to reading more and looking forward to pictures of the lights together so I can get relative size comparisions to say a regular 3d mag. Very interested to see the Kumkang and the XeRay in a side by side picture.

Curtis


----------



## Mr Ted Bear

what the heck... it's new years eve, and I have a "honey do" list that keeps growing by the minute.

anyways, yes, full report will soon come, but yesterday Kenshiro and I re-shot all the lights, plus the three 24 watters. I hade a hunch that I wanted to check out, and sure enough, what I believed was correct. I will post my findings in the Rayzorbeam review.

In the mean time...


----------



## cue003

Thanks Jeff. Is the square block on the bottom of the Kumkang attached or is that just the charging base? 

Thanks again. 

Happy New Year. 2006 here we come!!

Curtis


----------



## Kenshiro

NewBie,

Actually, I have a reference shot. It's not taken at daytime, but what I did was take my trusty Ken 4 and did a long exposure with it.
Suffice to say you can see QUITE A LOT. 

Anyway, I'll be posting the new shots soon. There was one surprise result of the second shootout.
I'll also post the results for the 24W tests. There was a definite winner there as well. However, none of them could compare with the big boys.

I also wanted to streamline the photos. V.1 of both the Razorbeam and the Razorlight is not available, so I'm wondering how much significance it has to show them with the rest of the group.
So I think I'll just post the v.2 pictures next time. I think that'll be much more relevant.

I would also like to thank Mr. Ted Bear for all his help and effort. Those of you who have read my first review thoroughly know what kind of hell I went through doing that first review all alone (my wife helped me out one time, but I just couldn't ask her to do it a second).
These HIDs are much simpler to do (they don't have a zillion "modes" like the superlights), but it's always better to have a helping hand.

Thanks again Mr. Ted Bear!


----------



## Mr Ted Bear

cue003 said:


> Thanks Jeff. Is the square block on the bottom of the Kumkang attached or is that just the charging base?
> 
> Thanks again.
> 
> Happy New Year. 2006 here we come!!
> 
> Curtis



Curtis

The block that you describe is where the ballast is located and is an integral part of the unit which can not be detached.

Here is what I wrote up on the polarion six months ago
Introducing the Polarion...


----------



## That_Guy

So does this "hunch" about the Rayzors concern the 4100K bulbs? I hope so. 

Regarding weather or not it's relevant posting the v1. pictures, it depends on what version the CPF group buy is for. Since most CPFers who are planning on buying the Rayzorbeam/lite are doing so through the CPF group buy you should include the v1. pictures unless you know that the group buy is in fact for the v2. Rayzors rather than the v1. Rayzors.


----------



## cue003

You know I should be out partying but instead I am here worrying about the new results for the Rayzors and how/if that changes things against the Polarion and the Xeray. Man, I live a pretty boring life...  One things is for sure..... one of the aforementioned lights will get purchased for 2006. 

Will there be weight info as well on all these lights? I am not trying to create more work for you guys, I just am not sure if you guys did runtime and weight testing on each of the lights. If you didn't then no worries. 

Jeff, I saw from your link above (thanks you for the link) that the Polarion has a solid runtime of 108 min vs. the claimed 150 min... that is a pretty solid difference (but still longer than the 70 min runtime of the X990) so was just wondering if the other lights were far off their manufacture claimed runtimes.... and weight. 

Lastly on the Polarion does it have the siren that the previous version had? What about hot restrike? 

Any of the lights in the test have instant on (as claimed by the Reva NOS RI-2200)?

Curtis


----------



## That_Guy

By "instant on" Reva probably means that the RI-2200 produces light from the instant that the button is pressed, as opposed to the older RI-2400 which produces no light when the button is first pressed. So by this definition all of these lights are "instant on", but that doesn't mean that they come on at full brightness. They still take a few seconds to warm up.

All of these lights should also have hot restrike. Well, all the automotive HID based ones should because that is a requirement of all automotive HID ballasts. I'm not sure about the 24W units, they might need a short delay like the 10W WA Solarc units, but if they're well designed they should have hot restrike.


----------



## cue003

That_Guy said:


> By "instant on" Reva probably means that the RI-2200 produces light from the instant that the button is pressed, as opposed to the older RI-2400 which produces no light when the button is first pressed. So by this definition all of these lights are "instant on", but that doesn't mean that they come on at full brightness. They still take a few seconds to warm up.
> 
> All of these lights should also have hot restrike. Well, all the automotive HID based ones should because that is a requirement of all automotive HID ballasts. I'm not sure about the 24W units, they might need a short delay like the 10W WA Solarc units, but if they're well designed they should have hot restrike.



Got ya. I thought I had read somewhere that the Kumkang has a built in safety that will not let you restrike the light too soon after turning it off. You could press the button to turn it on again but you would get no light if it was too soon. You would then have to turn it off again, wait and then retry. This is what I remember reading. Hopefully the Polarion is not that way and will allow for a quick restrike. 

Jeff, the Polarion is fixed focus, right? 

Curtis


H A P P Y 

N E W 

Y E A R !!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## Kenshiro

That Guy,
The group buy would be for the v.2.

Cue003,
We did the weight and run time tests for all the lights. So you're safe. 
The "claimed 150min run time" was for the Kumkang, not the Polarion.
The Polarion has fewer batteries and it has a claimed run time of 100mins. It actually did better with an actual run time of 108mins.
The Polarion has no problem with hot restrike. And yes, it is a fixed focus light.

Oh BTW, I just posted the results of the 24W test. There's a new link that says "24W HID LIGHTS".
Real simple. Only three lights to compare. If only everything else was this easy.....


----------



## Mr Ted Bear

That Guy

All the 35 watt units are hot restrike... the 24 watters are like the WA SolarARc. The Rayzorbeams even have a "flash mode"

v.1 lights are a thing of the past, being replaced by v.2. The Rayzors have too many inconsistencies (see the differences in runtime), too much variation in output , and a low voltage switching circuit that needs work. 

Dual output is good, and they are built very well (I have one Rayzorlight that I have tossed (not droped) down my concrete driveway two dozen times. toss down driveway mp4 

Note, I received v.2 prototypes and supposedly these problems have been resolved, but right not I would not recommend these lights.


My hunch was that, will all the problems, would there be variations is output between units of the same model ? What we found was "yes". More interesting was that the Rayzorbeam v.2 that looked pretty good the first time, didn/t look so good the second time around.

There will be a lot more photos showing the differences in v.1 and v.2; changes that have been made, and and some suggested changes.

The XeRay on the other hand is good to go. Little more runtime time than the X990, more lumens, smaller and lighter


----------



## cue003

Kenshiro, isn't the Polarion and the Kumkang the same light? I thought it was called the Kumkang Polarion? Just making sure I understand your comment in the above post about them being different....

Jeff, thanks for the weight and runtime info. 

You guys should be out getting dressed to head out on the town for New Years.

Curtis


----------



## Kenshiro

Cue003,

The Polarion and the Kumkang are NOT the same light. Mr. Ted Bear wrote a small intro about the Polarion when it was introduced 6 months ago.

Polarion is a new company that is a part of the Kumkang family. It basically is the flashlight brand of Kumkang. Kumkang, therefore does not make any lights any more.
The official name of the light is PXM-35P1, but it is simply called the P1 by Polarion.
The Polarion looks totally different, it has a different battery system, has a new reflector that is smaller than before, more rugged and completely waterproof to 100ft.
The performance, however, is virtually the same.

I'll try to post a group shot of the lights.


----------



## cue003

Kenshiro... got ya... it is clear now. 

Curtis


----------



## Kenshiro

Here's the group shot:


----------



## jtice

Thanks sooo much for all the work on this guys !!!! :goodjob:

The Costco HID has a killer throw beam, but its not a very useful one, 
plus, heh, its ,,, HUGE.

Overal, I am happy to see my X990 is still among the the very best 
But I really like that RazorBeam v2, and think its the best overal light from those shots.
Just to make sure I am thinking of the right one,,,
is it the first one on this pic? http://home.earthlink.net/~mrtedbear/latern.jpg

~John


----------



## larryk

First I would like to thank both Kenshiro and Jeff for going to all the trouble of doing this for us, and a Happy New Year to everyone.
The Rayzorbeam looks to have a very small area for your hand. It seems that wearing gloves with that light in colder climates like Wisconsin would be difficult. Is that just the photo or is the handle that much smaller than the others ? Larry.


----------



## Kenshiro

LarryK,
You're probably right. Wearing gloves wouldn't be very good with the Razorbeam.


----------



## That_Guy

It's a shame about the problems the Razors are having. I really want these lights to be good. Since I'm in Australia the Razors are the best option because there isn’t the prohibitive cost and hassle of importing from overseas, and they have local support. Looks like I'll have to get an overseas light after all. 

I would like to hear what Rhino has to say. These lights are primarily designed for the military and would be completely unacceptable in their current state. I find it hard to believe that they could let issues as severe as not starting persist for so long, and their silence on the issue isn’t very encouraging.


----------



## Mr Ted Bear

Larry K

Good observation on the handle... modifications are already in the works, about another 3/4" length, height is sufficient

Jtiice

Rayzorbeam v.2 Prototype does look very nice in the first set . However, once you see the shots from last night, you will likely change your mind. This is the first time as a reviewer that I have had the luxury of mutiple quantites of each model. We discovered significant differences in output between units.

In this set, you can see that the McCulloch X990, the Polarion and XeRay were virtually identical, but the Rayzorbeam v.2 was having a "bad day"


----------



## Mr Ted Bear

That guy


v.1 lights had simple mechanical switches that were too small and hard to push . They also had several other deficiencies... simple things like rubber feet that fall off, no" gas meter gauge", a so-so beam, seals that could be improved. For the Rayzorlight, it was difficult to swap batteries.... should I go on?

so, with version 2 lights, they incorporated a low voltage switching circuit using micro switches , hard anodized finish, a partially textured reflector, larger switch buttons, batttery gauge, quicklock battery release, enlarge the handle opening and a few more changes 

bottom line, they have more work to do...


----------



## That_Guy

Do you know if the CPF group buy will be for the buggy v.2, or if it will be postponed until they get the bugs worked out? Do you know if there is a newer, less buggy version in the works, and how far away it is?

I'd be willing to wait for them to get the bugs fixed, but it would have to be _all_ of the bugs, not just some of them, and it would have to be some time soon. If it's just going to continue as it is now with small incremental upgrades fixing some bugs but not others or adding a few new ones then I think I’ll give up and just get the XeVision in the CPF group buy. I would really like a Rayzorbeam, but I’m running out of patience.


----------



## Mr Ted Bear

That guy

I am hoping they will have a fully funtional v.2 light by the end of January, in time for Shot show . They have already solved the switching problem. They need to tighen up their qc so there aren't so many doscrepencies in performance and run time.

I like the light (when it works). I don't always need the full output, so the extended runtime is a plus in my book. I also like the fact I can (have) drop(ed) the light and not have a heart attack


----------



## cue003

Jeff, is the Polarion your personal unit? If so, what came with it? carry case, ac charger, dc charger, etxra battery.... etc?

I too had high hopes for especially the Rayzorlite because of it standard type flashlight shape. Even if they get their stuff together by the end of Jan, it seems like the true competitor they have is the RB especially when comparing to the XeRay, Polarion and X990. Is that correct?

Did you do any drop/throw tests for the XeRay or the Polarion? That video you linked to above was pretty cool seeing the Rayzorlite hit the ground and just roll.

Thanks.

Curtis


----------



## That_Guy

That's good to hear. I won't give up hope just yet! The extended runtime is nice. The 95 mins runtime of the XeVision is a little short for my tastes. If Rayzor can get all the lights to run for 200 mins on low it will be great! However I shouldn't get my hopes up too much.


----------



## Kenshiro

Mr. Ted Bear posted great pics showing the "anomaly".
The top four photos show the original photos set. The Razorbeam did just fine. As I mentioned on my website, the X990 was aimed slightly lower than the rest.

The bottom photos show the photos we took last night. You can see that the X990 is aimed correctly this time. The other lights are aimed better as well. In any case, as Ted Bear mentioned, other than the "correct" aim of the X990, the Polarion, X990, and Xevision seem pretty much on par as the first set.

However, the Razorbeam seems to be VERY different. What makes this so weird? Couldn't we just attribute it to a "variation in units"?
Well, we could if it was a different unit. BUT it wasn't. This is the EXACT same unit that we used for the first photo set.
Go figure.....

Don't let that 200min run time give you hopes. You can see that the run time numbers are all over the place. The are simply too inconsistant to be a reliable.

Here's a higher resolution photo of the new set with a reference shot as well.


----------



## XeVision

Ken,
What "Cannon" did you use for the reference photo:wow: ?

Dan


----------



## That_Guy

It doesn't look like the RB is being "boosted" properly. Apart from the obvious (it being much dimmer) the colour temperature is still blueish. When boosted the lamps colour temperature drops which can be seen in the first set. So my guess would be that the ballast isn't driving the bulb at the correct wattage.


----------



## Kenshiro

Here's the new photo set at 35W:


----------



## Trashman

XeVision said:


> Ken,
> What "Cannon" did you use for the reference photo:wow: ?
> 
> Dan



My guess is that it would probably be the Ken4. It's in the line up photo, but it's apparently not in the competition.


----------



## That_Guy

Trashman said:


> My guess is that it would probably be the Ken4. It's in the line up photo, but it's apparently not in the competition.


It's the Ken 4 with a long exposure.

In the new 35W photo the RB is also a lot dimmer than it was before. So it isn't just a boost issue, but an overall dimness issue, which is kinda weird.

Another interesting thing I just noticed is the difference in colour temp. between the Costco HID and the Rayzors. They are both meant to be using 6000K bulbs, but the Rayzors are significantly bluer than the Costco HID, which means that the colour temp. is higher than on the Costco HID. I can understand using a ice cold colour temp like on the Costco HID to get rid of the yellow tint of 4100K bulbs, but what's with all these companies like Rayzor and Wolf-Eyes using blue colour temps? It's stupid and costs a lot of light output. If they want to use a higher colour temp to get rid of the tint cast of 4100K bulbs, why can't they just aim for pure white like with LEDs, rather than overshooting the mark and ending up with a disgusting blue tint?


----------



## cue003

Are there any filters etc available for the Polarion to get a flood/diffuse type beam pattern? I know it has fixed focus but I was just wondering about any other possibility to increase the usability of the light.

Curtis


----------



## Mr Ted Bear

the tree is 22-23 feet tall


----------



## JimH

cue003 said:


> That video you linked to above was pretty cool seeing the Rayzorlite hit the ground and just roll.


Curtis,

What program/codec did you use to view the video. When I try to view it, I just get "invalid MPEG-4 format"


----------



## cue003

Jim, it ran in Quicktime for me.

I am running an older version of Quicktime v.6.5.2

I didn't need to load any special codecs.

Curtis


----------



## Lando

I used VLC player it plays almost anything and all the codecs are already integrated so no need to install anything besides VLC

http://www.videolan.org/vlc/


----------



## cmacclel

Where's the Video?

Mac


----------



## MorpheusT1

Video of MR.Ted Bear tossing a Razor!


----------



## Kiessling

Thanx a bunch for the hard work, guys !!!!! :thumbsup:
Really appreciated here. :bow:
I love thorough and complete shootouts  !

Polarion .. tempting. Groupbuy ... 

bernie


----------



## jtice

LOLOLOL oh MAN !

That vid seriously made me crenge !
KaWHAP ! onto the ground eehhh gives me shivers.

What is it about that one that lets it withstand that?
I hear the Havis is pretty tough (just got mine !!!) is it anywhere near that tough?

~John


----------



## Kiessling

Will you review this new Reva light in the near future? 
bernie


----------



## Mr Ted Bear

We already know that the REVA has excellent engineering and the build quality on par with the SF Beast. We also know that it they don't put out a lot of lumens

For the time being, they are not available to civilians, but that is expected to change early this year


----------



## cue003

Kiessling said:


> Thanx a bunch for the hard work, guys !!!!! :thumbsup:
> Really appreciated here. :bow:
> I love thorough and complete shootouts  !
> 
> Polarion .. tempting. Groupbuy ...
> 
> bernie



I would probably be in for a nice Groupbuy price on the Polarion with extra bulb and extra battery. 

Right now I am trying to take it all in and figure out which one to go for or if I should just wait for the Rayzors to work out their kinks. It is pretty nice to know the Rayzorlite can at least take a good throw every once in a while. 

Curtis


----------



## cue003

Can the Polarion be stood on its end? sortof like in candle mode? The Rayzor looks like it can and maybe the Xeray as well. Just wanted to know if the Polarion can achieve the same. 

Candle mode is a feature of the X990 that I really like.

Curtis


----------



## jtice

While you may like that feature, and I have done it a time or two,

I hear its not good for the bulbs


----------



## cue003

Thanks Jtice, you are correct. Prolonged runs in candle mode will result in reduced bulb life.

Curtis


----------



## JimH

Mr Ted Bear said:


> the tree is 22-23 feet tall



I want a light that makes this scene look like this at night. A pocket version would be ideal.


----------



## john2551

Jeff,

I hope you will make this thread a "sticky thread" soon.

John


----------



## Kiessling

Stickied.


----------



## Sway

Question for Ken or Mr. TB,

Looking back at the shoot out pic’s I was wondering about the XeRay, since it can be focused from a spot to flood how it was set for the pictures? This would help me and may be a few others to better understand what we are seeing in the pictures. If this has already been mentioned here please excuse me I must have over looked it. 

Thanks!

Kelly


----------



## cue003

Good question Sway. The answer has not been mentioned thus far in any of the previous posts so I too would be interested in the answer. If it was in spot mode, then how come no photos showing how much wider the flood mood gets you?

Thanks again to everyone involved.

Curtis


----------



## Lurveleven

I'm quite sure the pictures of the XeRay are with thightest focus, because at wide focus it has black hole in the center of the beam. Pictures from Litemania shows that, you can here see his shots at wide focus and at thight focus.

Sigbjoern


----------



## Sway

Lurveleven said:


> I'm quite sure the pictures of the XeRay are with thightest focus, because at wide focus it has black hole in the center of the beam. Pictures from Litemania shows that, you can here see his shots at wide focus and at thight focus.
> 
> Sigbjoern



Sigbjoern,

Thanks for linking Litemania's pic's I had forgot about those , it does show the two extremes and please correct me if I’m wrong but I think he was using the AZ Project light with a different lamp and not the XeRay set up?

I still would like to know what focus was used for the SuperLights III photo shoot. 

From the pic's it clear the focus was not set to wide, I would like to know if the setting was in the tight focus or something between showing some flood and throw.

Later
Kelly


----------



## rugup

Mr Bear / Ken... Can you possibly take a picture like the following pic, showing light wielder and target in same frame? How you've done it is good for comparison but doesnt show actual performance to newbs that have never seen such HID lights before. Possibly compare it to a simular sized/weight incan, in such layout (not the mammoth thor).




Also .. movies! run around wielding a HID, possibly switching between focus/boost/flash/whatever mode. Should have good comedic value if nothing else, you may wish to wear balaclava, if shy of camera


----------



## Dynacolt

I hope I'm not asking a question that's already been answered.
How did the Rayzorbeams fare with their flash/signal mode? How do they manage this in an HID and does it work effectively?

Thanks,
Dave.


----------



## cue003

Dynacolt said:


> I hope I'm not asking a question that's already been answered.
> How did the Rayzorbeams fare with their flash/signal mode? How do they manage this in an HID and does it work effectively?
> 
> Thanks,
> Dave.


I am hoping that we can get an answer to the above question. i am still waiting for the official review.


----------



## Mr Ted Bear

Here is a clip of the Rayzorbeam v.1 demonstating flash mode.... works reasonablly well

mp4 of Rayzorbeam


----------



## Lando

> How do they manage this in an HID


isn't this going to shorten the lifespan of, or damage the bulb?

Question for Mr.Ted Bear: since it has emerged that you will become a Polarion dealer in the near future, can you tell us more about the 75W HID light on the Polarion website http://www.polarion.co.kr/ Will you be importing that light, what is the retail price, is it a true HID light or xenon short arc, is it a competitor for the Maxabeam? 

take care
:wave:


----------



## HighLight

Mr Ted Bear said:


> Here is a clip of the Rayzorbeam v.1 demonstating flash mode.... works reasonablly well
> 
> mp4 of Rayzorbeam


 
Until Rayzorbeams quality improves maybe you should have flashed out an SOS.:laughing:


----------



## That_Guy

Lando said:


> ...can you tell us more about the 75W HID light on the Polarion website http://www.polarion.co.kr/...



I'm not certain of this, but I think it is just a xenon filled incandescent, not a HID. http://www.tgchampion.co.kr/intro.html lists "Xe" lights up to 200W, so it's unlikely that they are HID.


----------



## Mr Ted Bear

Lando

I had inquired about becoming a Polarion *dealer* several months ago, and still have an open line of communication with the US *distributor*, but that's about it. I enjoy flashlights as much or more than the next person on this forums, but if I started to sell and service them, that would take all the fun out of it. The other thing is, if I were a dealer, I would be tied to the industry, and that would limit my freedom. I don't know anything about the 75watt unit that is on the Polarion website.

Highlight 

I don't think the term "quality" (or lack of) correctly describes the Rayzor program. The lights that I received preformed erratically because the potting material becomes conductive as it cures. Now after 2 ½ weeks, all the lights (v.1 and v.2) have shorted out internally; none of the lights will hold a charge more than a day or so. 

In the meantime, the factory is making a few more changes to the lights. If you have been following this thread, you know the handle opening on the Rayzorbeam was just a wee bit too small (needs to be ¾ of an inch larger), so that has been changed. The rubber feet on the Rayzorbeam v.1 kept falling off, so they changed it on v.2 . The rubber feet on v.2 were better, but there’s always a “better way” , so that’s being changed a third time.

The Rayzorligths have a replaceable battery pack. The method of attach/detaching the battery was very awkward at best. In fact, I could change a battery pack in the XeRay faster than I could the Rayzorlight. The thing is, the Rayzorlight is supposed to have an interchangeable battery…. Anyways, that system has been eliminated, and there’s a new quick release system. 


The reason I have held off posting the formal review is because they preformed erratically. At times they worked well, and at times, I couldn’t get them to turn on. Runtimes were also all over the place (just barely 2 hours to more than 3 hours). Output varied between units… one unit didn’t perform as well the second time we tested it). The is one of those situations where I don’t know if I’m coming or going….

The factory has been, and is making changes. The Rayzor lights are not ready for consumer consumption.  Next week? Next month? If and when, I will test again


----------



## HighLight

I agree with your comments on the Rayzors and on a positive note the manufacturer seems to be willing to implement changes/improvements. If I may make a suggestion to them would be for them to offer the lights at a very reasonable price ( at least to us CPF members ) when they feel the lights are ready. Also on a positive note..thers seems to be a lot of new and very exciting
products coming out lately (especially the HID lanterns)..my wallet may be going on another diet soon!


----------



## Sway

Mr Ted Bear,

Nice interim on the Razor Lights clearly they have a few things to work out and I wish them the best of luck, the beam shots of the Razorbeam did look promising.

I had a question a few post back about the XeRay as to what focus was use for the pictures, was it in the tight focus or something between? I along with a few others would greatly appreciate it if you could entertain this question.

Thanks!

Later
Kelly


----------



## Lips

I am rooting for the rayzorlites as well. I prefer the form factor of the light being more of a traditional flashlight over the handle flat-iron form of some of the other models including the razorbeam. Durable,two power settings for extended runtime, waterproof and not weighty. Gonna go meditate for them now. :tinfoil:


----------



## Mr Ted Bear

Kelly

The XeRay was shot at "spot" mode. Kenshiro and I didn't feel there was sufficient "demand" to compare the light in "flood" mode.

With regards to the XeRay.... to end the debate as to which bulb (AZ Project-Korean or XeVision-GE) performs the "best", bulbs are being sent to me by Wasabi, so I will be re-shooting the XeRay.

Also, I hope to hookup with mtnbikedad to shoot the NFA.

Last, I have one more, which we will call "brand x", which I believe will blow away every other light that we have tested to date , and that could possibly be here as soon as this weekend


----------



## Sway

Thanks Jeff!

Very interested in "brand x" 

Later
Kelly


----------



## That_Guy

Ohhh looking forward to brand x 

I too want to see the Rayzors fixed. They are by far the best on paper: lightest, brightest, longest running, waterproof and durable. When your spending over $500 on a light it's nice to know that it won't be destroyed if you accidentally drop it like many of the others would be.


----------



## larryk

Brand X ? Sounds interesting.

Jeff, got the light back today, Thanks, Larry.


----------



## cue003

hmmm. You can't just dangle the food out there in front of angry lions...

Brand X ... do tell more.

Curtis


----------



## cmacclel

2 group buys on the top performers of the shootout and now "Brand X" OMG!


Mac


----------



## DFiorentino

Mr Ted Bear said:


> Last, I have one more, which we will call "brand x", which I believe will blow away every other light that we have tested to date , and that could possibly be here as soon as this weekend



Oh, hurry hurry hurry! I'm so on the fence with the previously mentioned groupbuys.

 

In all seriousness though, a sincere :thanks: for all of the tester's huge efforts in organizing such a resource of quality info in one place.

-DF


----------



## cue003

I wonder if Brand X Mr. Ted Bear is lighter than than the latest batch of 50w/35w lights that were tested? will it have more performance while keeping weight down and runtime high?

Curtis


----------



## Mr Ted Bear

Curtis

I have zero details about the new light other than it is supposed to be a real barn burner. I am sure that if it preforms as advertised, there will be a major campaign on CPF. 

On the other hand, if it's a dog.... light? what light? I don't know anything about a new light....Brand X, huh?, you are confused witht the *X*eRay, ahh no, I meant tne *X*990.


----------



## That_Guy

Sounds like it isn't an ordinary 35/50W D2S automotive based HID like all the others, but something more powerful, maybe 75W or 100W. If this is the case then I can't wait! Many CPFers have been wanting more powerful HIDs for quite some time, but have been restricted to D2S automotive based mods because no 12VDC ballasts exist for more powerful bulbs, and no-one has the skills, time or money to make their own. Manufactures that custom design their own ballasts don't have this limitation, so it's about time that one of them made something more powerful, rather than restricting themselves to 35/50W.

I'm a real sucker for super-bright, runtime and size be damned impractical lights so I don't think I'll be able to resist getting one. Unfortunately that means that I likely won't be able to afford a useful, practical 35/50W automotive based HID light.


----------



## BVH

Geeze, all of these wonderful light purchase options - just after spending a bundle on Christmas gifts! And now we have to sit on the edge of our chairs until Mr. TB gets this burner in his hands and in the viewfinder of his camera for all of us to google at. And then we have to....R E S I I I I S T ! And then we have to B U Y! And then we have to PAY THE BILL! And then we finally SEE THE LIGHT!

I'll take two, please.


----------



## Kenshiro

Here's the official Polarion distributor's website.
It's not up and running yet, but you can e-mail them if you have any questions.

http://www.quantumillumination.com/


----------



## HighLight

That_Guy said:


> Sounds like it isn't an ordinary 35/50W D2S automotive based HID like all the others, but something more powerful, maybe 75W or 100W. If this is the case then I can't wait! Many CPFers have been wanting more powerful HIDs for quite some time, but have been restricted to D2S automotive based mods because no 12VDC ballasts exist for more powerful bulbs, and no-one has the skills, time or money to make their own. Manufactures that custom design their own ballasts don't have this limitation, so it's about time that one of them made something more powerful, rather than restricting themselves to 35/50W.
> 
> I'm a real sucker for super-bright, runtime and size be damned impractical lights so I don't think I'll be able to resist getting one. Unfortunately that means that I likely won't be able to afford a useful, practical 35/50W automotive based HID light.


 
I think the lack of a 75 -100 watt HID bulb that would be suitable to retrofit in a flashlight may be a major problem also. As far as I know the 35 w d2s bulbs are overdriven by a 50 watt ballast but can temporarily handle 70 watts peak ramp up power and the only other true 50 watt bulb the Philips DL50 is no longer made....


----------



## That_Guy

Small single ended metal halide bulbs in that range do exist. The main problem is the warm-up time. The automotive D2S bulbs have a xenon fill gas which provides light during warm up and are overdriven at 70W during start-up to both reduce the warm-up time and increase the light output during warm-up. Normal metal halide bulbs don't do this, which means that it would take at least 2 mins to warm up. However, manufacturers are also able to have the bulbs built to their own specs, eg. Rayzorbeam.


----------



## Mr Ted Bear

They are shipping on Tuesday (post office is closed MLK), so we'll know soon enough.....


----------



## cue003

Looking forward to this new monster. Hopefully it is all that it is cracked up to be and some. Looking for a nice companion to go along with the Polarion. 

Curtis


----------



## BVH

Curtis, I'm beginning to think you're a bad influence on me! First, you buy a Polarion then I HAVE to do the same. Now you're possibly interested in this Mega Burner that may prove to be lightening in disquise. And here I am again, following you down the path. Why can't you be interested in Maglite Solitaires! (LOL)


----------



## MorpheusT1

I have been following this thread since the start and i have not seen
anything that i really fancy..YET.
But now this talk about Brand.X



I guess i will have to sell of most of my lights to afford this Beast 

huh..

Did someone say Beast II?



Naw...just my imagination again..



Keep up the good work Mr.Ted Bear


Benny


----------



## LuxLuthor

Brand X is nothing more than a 5 gallon plastic water jug filled with a million fireflies, and a small AA battery power pump carefully infuses a crack-laced glucose mixture when switched on.


----------



## MorpheusT1

:bump:


----------



## LuxLuthor

MorpheusT1 said:


> :bump:


 
ROFL....just out of curiosity, why would you bump a Sticky Topic that is already in the #1 slot position?

 :lolsign:


----------



## MorpheusT1

Just to get some attention,
And because i really want to know about this Brand-X,could be that someone had some more hints about it.




I did not realize it was a sticky until now.



Sorry for bumping,im just so anxious to know more...


But i probably will wait for the SF Beast II anyway,should not be long before they Unleash the Beast once again..
Hopefully at SHOT.:naughty:




Benny


----------



## JimH

MorpheusT1 said:


> But i probably will wait for the SF Beast II


There is no Beast II, and I doubt there will ever be one. The Beast has been around for some time and has undergone many changes. It is constantly changing and evolving based on the customer's (read government) requirements.

Even with all its many forms and future incarnations, it is still just "The Beast".


----------



## MorpheusT1

We will see


----------



## LuxLuthor

With all I had heard about The Beast, it didn't hold up very well in this latest Superlight III Shootout....especially for the $3,000 price.


----------



## PoliceScannerMan

LuxLuthor said:


> With all I had heard about The Beast, it didn't hold up very well in this latest Superlight III Shootout....especially for the $3,000 price.



Yeah, but it puts out a lot of light for 3 lbs.!!! Also, in my own experience, when I take beam shots, it doesnt get the sidespill, just the hot spot, so there is a lot more light than the camera picks up.


----------



## JimH

LuxLuthor said:


> With all I had heard about The Beast, it didn't hold up very well in this latest Superlight III Shootout....especially for the $3,000 price.



That's because Ted Bear didn't do the final test. Take all the lights being tested and drop them off a 3 story building on to a concrete street a couple of times. Then repeat any of the previous tests and tell me which one comes out on top by a long shot.

Let's see "works just like before" vs. "can't find all the parts to put it back together".


----------



## LuxLuthor

JimH said:


> That's because Ted Bear didn't do the final test. Take all the lights being tested and drop them off a 3 story building on to a concrete street a couple of times. Then repeat any of the previous tests and tell me which one comes out on top by a long shot.
> 
> Let's see "works just like before" vs. "can't find all the parts to put it back together".


 
That may be true, but I would call that "The Moron's Test" to drop any light off a 3 story building....let alone a $3,000 one.

:lolsign: 

First and foremost, IMHO, a $3,000 light has to be the brightest by far of a comparable group of lights that are 1/2 to 1/4th the price. Then I could decide if durability would be worth the extra benefit to pay 4 times as much to buy it. 

Personally, I could never be interested in a SF light that is that expensive and sucking down 123A's at the rate of 1-2 per minute of use, and watching the rapid lumen falloff as the batteries quickly drain....unless it dramatically blew away all the competition in terms of lumens and throw. 

The Polarion looks to be about the same level of portability, but has a rechargeable battery, far better light performance and is 1/4th the price. But hey, that's just my opinion.


----------



## JimH

LuxLuthor said:


> That may be true, but I would call that "The Moron's Test" to drop any light off a 3 story building....let alone a $3,000 one.



You may laugh, but I have seen it done. Ask anyone who was at the Cambria get together in 2004. This is indeed a legit test for the main customers for the Beast, the only customer than can afford to buy them by the hundreds.


----------



## cmacclel

Lux you need to remember there is a market for everything. Surefire's market is for military and LE which unlike us who want the brightest cheapest light out there and don't care that much for the build quality. The military and Law Enforcement demands are completely different. They need a light that can take a beating and continue to work as sometimes there life depends on it 


Mac


----------



## Beretta1526

This thread is starting to stray a little bit, let's get it back on track...

Mr.TB, have you rec'd the new 'Brand X' light(s) yet? I've been thinking of starting a quest for a Costco HID, but if this new one is going to be reasonable, as the X990 is, I may set my sights on that.


----------



## Mr Ted Bear

Beretta

The "Barn Burner" shipped on Tuesday, and according to the tracking #, it's on the truck, out for delivery

The BB does use a DL-50


----------



## cmacclel

Mr. Ted Bear can you give us a "Ball Park" fugure of the pricing on this light? Low End - Medium - High End??


Thanks Mac


----------



## Mr Ted Bear

Funny you should ask about the price.

The vendor suggested a number, but at the same time, wanted my opinion what the light would be worth.

Just to make sure we are on the same page... low =400-600, medium 600-800, high >800. These numbers are what you can buy the light for, not some meaningless list price. 

The barn burner is said to have all the features and benefits blah blah blah, similiar to the ones we just reviewed (XeRay and Rzyaors). li-on batts, light weight, led battery guage, highly water resistant (?) [not sure on this point], decent run time (90 minutes).... just the higher wattage bulb, ballast, and more batteries. Thing is, I haven't seen the light, so maybe it has a cheap plastic case (costco ), or a crummy reflector (they can afford losing a few photons) or......

Given the Xeray is $575, Rayzors $6 something, Polarion $900 ($675 group buy), i would guess this light will be at least $200 more, in the $800-900 range


----------



## PoliceScannerMan

Mr. Ted Bear, your Avatar is Awesome! That pic says it all when I have a new light in my "paws".

:lolsign:


----------



## cue003

Well, Mr Ted Bear, since the company asked for your opinion on price we should of course consider what the potential group buy price would be for us CPF members...  . would be nice to stay in the realm of the XeRay when it comes to a potential GB price if at all possible. Sounds similiar to the XeRay just with a DL-50 bulb. Would be interesting to see the size/weight etc when you finally receive it.

Curtis


----------



## LuxLuthor

cmacclel said:


> Lux you need to remember there is a market for everything. Surefire's market is for military and LE which unlike us who want the brightest cheapest light out there and don't care that much for the build quality. The military and Law Enforcement demands are completely different. They need a light that can take a beating and continue to work as sometimes there life depends on it
> Mac


 
Yeah, very good points. I wasn't thinking of those uses.

Ted Bear, don't burn the barn while testing this new one! :rock:


----------



## Mr Ted Bear

barn burner on left and _formerly_ the brightest hid in my collection on the right

pictures are highly underexposed given the close range


----------



## PoliceScannerMan

What was your brightest before The X?


----------



## Mr Ted Bear

center hot spot would be the polarion
lumens would be the XeRay

note: i don't include the maxabeam because it's a short-arc; different technology, and quite frankly, doesn't put out a lot of lumens


----------



## BVH

"Let's see the light"..."Let's see the light"..."Let's see the light" - I mean the physical entity, not what it produces. Please, Please? Oh, and some specs, too!


----------



## PoliceScannerMan

BVH said:


> "Let's see the light"..."Let's see the light"..."Let's see the light" - I mean the physical entity, not what it produces. Please, Please? Oh, and some specs, too!



Do you know when you will be able to do what BVH said?


----------



## BVH

I was assuming Mr. TB took the photos and therefore, had the light, but maybe someone sent him the pics?


----------



## That_Guy

Brand X doesn't look that bright, but it's hard to tell form the picture. A DL50 based light wasn't what I was hoping for, but it's better than nothing I guess. It looks like it's just being overdriven to 75W or so on a modified automotive ballast. I was hoping for an all new high powered bulb being run off a custom designed ballast rather than just another automotive based HID. Oh well.

Edit: I forgot to mention the colour temperature. The DL50, especially overdriven, should have a lower colour temp than the 35W 4100K D2S bulb used in the Polarion. I didn't know that higher colour temp versions of the DL50 existed.


----------



## cue003

I would be interested in seeing shots of brand X physically against the likes of the Polarion and the XeRay. 

Very good output. I am sure we will hear more as the days progress and you put it through the paces. 

Well, now that we establish output is good, what about weight, throw, size, and ruggedness? i hope those will be next on the tests..... then groupbuy. 

Thanks.

Curtis


----------



## Mr Ted Bear

That Guy

Custom ballast driving dl50 at 75 watts... definately not an automotive ballast. Like you say, not "super bright" but in person, you can see the greater number of lumens. Kinda like a p60 and p61, not really brighter, just more. It's a step forward, something we didn't have last week, so it's a good thing.

This has been a good week for Mr Bear. XeVision sent me the 35 watt ballast for the XeRay and Wasabi sent me the AZ Project (Korean) bulb for the XeRay. In case you lost count, AZ Project is Japanese, they use a Korean bulb, and the light is manufactured in Taiwan. Then XeVsion renames the light XeRay, removes the bulb, and installs a GE bulb. Got it?

Anyways, want to get together with mtnbkdad and do a proper shootout with the new NFA he got.

Last, I acquired a turn key HID mod for the THOR using osram ballast, bulb., and h4 adapter All new OEM parts, with factory warranty. Its a D1 setup, so everything fits nicely within the Thor case... and for $150 and it seems to hold it's own :nana:


----------



## cue003

Good deal. Really interested to get feedback of the 35W XeRay vs. the 35W Polarion. Should be very interesting to see the results and pictures. Very interested to learn more about brand X.

As usual, I thank for putting this together and taking the time to do this comparision. Yippie. 

Curtis


----------



## LuxLuthor

Yeah, we all can't say enough good things about how appreciated and how well you did this shootout so far. Can't wait to see pix of BrandX showing its performance, size, output, etc.


----------



## Mr Ted Bear

"Product Shots" of the barn burner are completed, but it's not up to me wether or not to post them. Likewise, I could spill my guts, but would be subject to "CUTOFF" should I betray the vendors trust.

I'm thinking that after I do to Shootout at the tree/park this weekend, they will say itls OK. Another possibility is that they want to wait till SHOT SHOW?


I can't do runtimes because the vendor has indicated they will be changing the battery configuration slightly; everything else about the unit is final. It is "lantern style" like the Rayzorbeam/XeRay/Polarion. No weight becuase of the changing batteries; reflector is 4+ inches... other than brand and price, name, not much different that what's already out there. This is a "loaner unit" so it does not get the special "toss down the driveway" treatment


----------



## cue003

Hopefully they will allow for the information/pictures etc to be posted after this weekend. 

BTW, was the shot above on the right from the XeRay or the Polarion?

PM sent... Thanks.

Curtis


----------



## Sway

Jeff,

Understanding your position, you can only divulge so much with out getting *CUTOFF* that would be bad for all of us, I do greatly appreciate your efforts.

I can’t help but wonder though, if it’s the light I’m thinking of the wait should be worth while 

Later
Kelly


----------



## Mr Ted Bear

Vendor has asked that I not speak till I complete the shootout which might be Saturday (I have a 6:00pm diner engagement and the park closes at 10pm ), and if not, then on Sunday night... all wii be told at that time.


----------



## cue003

You know I am going to be sitting by the freaking computer all night on Sunday. Might even have to be late for work monay morning in anticipation of your findings/pictures etc.

Curtis


----------



## That_Guy

Are you able to say if it has dual power modes like the Rayzorbeam?


----------



## Mr Ted Bear

my lips are sealed.... but I can be bought  

seriously, 2 more days.... heck, the light won't be available for 3-4 weeks (battery re-config) so don't worry...

just for fun, let's guess

1) knock off .... nitron handheld version of the sf hellfire 0)
2) new polarion (www.polarion.co.kr)
3) rayzor-mighty light (fits the mold... pre=production as always)
4) jenfang (you know mcculloh x990)
5) wolfeyes that finally works
6) XeRay (have they even started shipping the xeRay 50)
7) Ken 75 (first full production light for Kenshiro)
8) havis Shields ? (never say never)
9) not listed but you know the company 


guess we'll just have to wait


----------



## cmacclel

Mr Ted Bear what neighborhood do you reside in??? When I move across country I'd like to be near you to help you evaluate all these Top Secret lights 


Mac


----------



## BVH

Mr TB, I certainly hope your dinner engagement is at the Jack-in-the-Box drive-thru. You can down 4 taco's for $1.98 pretty quick and get to the light testing. What do you think?


----------



## Mr Ted Bear

Northridge a few blocks from the University....

Chinese banquet so no change Saturday nights


----------



## mtbkndad

Jeff,

Give me a call if you go to the range tomorrow night or Sunday night either night will be good for me. Hopefully I did not miss out on you going tonight.

Take Care,
Daniel
mtbkndad :wave:

PS. I do believe the NFA 3152 that will be available will come with 4200K bulbs instead of the 6000K bulb that is in the light right now.


----------



## cue003

Do all the HID lights in the test maintain brightness for the duration of the runtime or is that a function of the design for just certain lights within the shootouts?

Do they just go out without warning when the battery has been drained?

Curtis


----------



## XeVision

cue003 said:


> Do they just go out without warning when the battery has been drained? Curtis


 
Unless they have a battery (life remaining) meter, HID lights turn off without warning once the battery level is low.


----------



## cue003

XeVision said:


> Unless they have a battery (life remaining) meter, HID lights turn off without warning once the battery level is low.



thanks for the response. Don't you suffer the same fate even if you have a battery meter.... especially if it is one that you have to press to determine capacity? It is not like a cell phone etc to where you can actually see the battery bars being reduced with use. If you forget or don't press the button on the battery meter you may end up reaching for it just at the moment the light goes out.

I think an option/configuration of the meter should be for constant on meter or depress for meter status. I know the constant on meter could shorten runtime... but by how much... 5min ... ???? Maybe I am asking too much? 

Maybe a strobe type effect when there is 5-10 min of charge left to give the user enough time to either turn off the light and recharge it or start preparing the replacement battery.

Curtis


----------



## That_Guy

Mr Ted Bear said:


> just for fun, let's guess
> 
> 1) knock off .... nitron handheld version of the sf hellfire 0)
> 2) new polarion (www.polarion.co.kr)
> 3) rayzor-mighty light (fits the mold... pre=production as always)
> 4) jenfang (you know mcculloh x990)
> 5) wolfeyes that finally works
> 6) XeRay (have they even started shipping the xeRay 50)
> 7) Ken 75 (first full production light for Kenshiro)
> 8) havis Shields ? (never say never)
> 9) not listed but you know the company
> 
> 
> guess we'll just have to wait


Is it all right to enter a last minute guess? I say AE Light.
Edit: My other guess would be the 75W Polarion that has been mentioned earlier. After seeing the updated Polarion website http://www.polarion.co.kr/ this seems more likely.


----------



## XeVision

cue003 said:


> thanks for the response. Don't you suffer the same fate even if you have a battery meter.... especially if it is one that you have to press to determine capacity? It is not like a cell phone etc to where you can actually see the battery bars being reduced with use. If you forget or don't press the button on the battery meter you may end up reaching for it just at the moment the light goes out.
> 
> I think an option/configuration of the meter should be for constant on meter or depress for meter status. I know the constant on meter could shorten runtime... but by how much... 5min ... ???? Maybe I am asking too much?
> 
> Maybe a strobe type effect when there is 5-10 min of charge left to give the user enough time to either turn off the light and recharge it or start preparing the replacement battery.
> 
> Curtis


 
Yes, what you say is correct. I guess my best suggestion is to use your watch for runtime.

Dan


----------



## cue003

That Polarion website looks pretty nice. The new light looks good. Too bad I don't understand what is being said on that page. Maybe someone can translate. I tried google translation but it didn't work.

Curtis


----------



## cue003

Do my eyes deceive me? It looks like Polarion is also making a "regular" flashlight as seen in the background after going to the above link and then clicking on Polarion Lighting.


----------



## larryk

Something like this would work nice, especially for people that make their own Spotlights. Ditch the sounder though.
Larry.

http://www4.mailordercentral.com/heliproz/prodinfo.asp?number=335444


----------



## cue003

I agree... Ditch the sounder portion. Nice find Larry.


----------



## moonkat

Curtis,
Got it.


----------



## cue003

MoonKat, there is a thread already for posting on the XeRay 35,50 and soon to be 75w.

https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/104372


Thanks. Then you can cut and past your post from here to there.

Curtis


----------



## cue003

The Rayzors seem to have corrected some of their teething issues and are back in the circle of consideration. Will they be reviewed by Mr. Ted Bear again so that the review can be updated to see how they compare to the units he received a while back for review.

These units were at the tops of many peoples lists until the results of the test units were posted and they went back to the drawing board to correct some issues. 

The runtime is still very impressive to me if the testing prove it to be repeatable.

Would be interested to see if they finally achieved what they set out to.

Reviews so far can be found on http://flashlight-forums.com/index.php?topic=2577.0

Thanks.

Curtis


----------



## festiva91

Love my polarian, only problem is a "cloudy" look to the lens, looks like a big job to disassemble the head.


----------



## Ruockolt

*Hellfighter?*

I don't wan't to intrude since I'm a relative newbie at this, but with the title Superlight I couldn't help but think that this light should be consitered. That might not even be possible, since I dont know whether you can even aquire one. But, I am a die-hard SureFire fan so I thought it was worth bringing to your attention...

*The SureFire HellFighter*
(This thing produces 3500 lumens out of the box)

You can check this beast out at:

http://www.surefire.com/maxexp/main/co_disp/displ/prrfnbr/24279/sesent/00

The specs:

*Power source *:12V DC Auto battery (adaptor included) or two 5590 military batteries
*Runtime*: Auto battery: continuous; 5590 batteries: 8 hours
*Mount*: HellFighter slides onto T-slot mount, which attaches to machine gun sleeve. Picatinny rail also incorporated into mount.
*Length*: 8" (body and bezel)
*Weight*: 10 lbs. (light and mount combined)
*Bezel diameter*: 4.1"
*Finish*: Hand anodized "NL" gray MIL-A-8625 type III, class 2
*Water Resistant*: O-ring seals and rubber gaskets at critical mechanical mating surfaces


----------



## winny

Ruockolt,

Please don't hotlink images.
Check rule 3


----------



## Ruockolt

Sorry about that, like I said, I am new at this. 
I think I corrected the problem, but if I left something that shouldn't be there just let me know and I will remove it.


----------



## Kiessling

And whilke we are at it ... don't change thread titles in general discussion forums either 

Welcome to CPF !  :wave:

About that light ... it is generally known as the "Hellfire" and by looking on the pics you can read the name there also. I guess it is just a typo in the SF website calling it "Hellfighter".

Search for "Hellfire" and you'll find some threads and info.

bernie


----------



## Ruockolt

Sorry about changing the thread. Eventually I'll get the rules right. Anyway I thought it was odd too that you can read "hellfire" but they title it the hellfigher. I guess thats why I couldn't find it in the other threads. Thanks.


----------



## TENMMIKE

LOOKS TO ME LIKE THEY MAY HAVE CHANGED THE NAME , ITS HELLFIGHTER ON A BUNCH OF OTHER SITES NOW AS WELL, despite that it says hellfire on the side still.


----------



## windstrings

Kenshiro said:


> Here's the group shot:




Wow.. it takes a tremendous amount of digging to find all the specs, prices, battery types, run times, throw patterns, etc.. would be nice if someone who had all that info could compile it in one place to make it easier for shoppers.

It's neat to see a pic with them all together like that... but now I'm spoiled and want more!..

Just about the time you think you know what you want... another monkey wrench comes along from another angle.

I know someone would have to do the digging, unless someone already had that info?

Seems the pics of the X990 are all of the old ones... not the newer ones, so I don't know if I can trust the pics or not... I believe the ballast has been improved on the X990 since the "McColluch" series.. but that may only help first time striking rather than actual output?


----------

