# 6xRCR123s & HO-M6R... how safe??



## Fusion_m8 (Jul 4, 2008)

I know this setup is rarely done because its considered as risky. 

However I have some spare generic 800mah UN-protected RCR123s lying around and I was planning to purchase my workmate's used Surefire M6 which comes with no bulbs or box. So I'm planning to run it with 6xRCR123s and a HO-M6R for short bursts of not more than 2-3mins. Fivemega's 3x17670 holders are all sold out!


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## mdocod (Jul 4, 2008)

actually as long as the cells are all of decent quality and protected there is really nothing unsafe about it at all, it's about a 1.05A load per RCR123, which is right at or below 2C on most brands and is perfectly fine. This is actually a lower load than when people run lamps like P90s and HO-9s on a pair of RCR123s. 

LF really thought that HO-M6R through top to bottom before deciding on a final design voltage/current and from what I can tell, they nailed the design on the head, as it is the perfect "load" for RCR123s to be operating at without being over their maximum discharge rates as most are right around 550mAH give or take.


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## bagman (Jul 4, 2008)

I was going to try this with my M6 but the AW protected RCR123's I have were too long to fit in the SF battery holder.

Which brand do people use for this set up please?


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## Outdoors Fanatic (Jul 4, 2008)

bagman said:


> I was going to try this with my M6 but the AW protected RCR123's I have were too long to fit in the SF battery holder.
> 
> Which brand do people use for this set up please?


Are you using the black or blue AWs?


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## Outdoors Fanatic (Jul 4, 2008)

Fusion_m8 said:


> I know this setup is rarely done because its considered as risky.
> 
> However I have some spare generic 880mah UN-protected RCR123s lying around and I was planning to purchase my workmate's used Surefire M6 which comes with no bulbs or box. So I'm planning to run it with 6xRCR123s and a HO-M6R for short bursts of not more than 2-3mins. Fivemega's 3x17670 holders are all sold out!


As mdocod said, it's a pretty safe set-up.


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## Fusion_m8 (Jul 4, 2008)

I know LF recommends protected cells, however I don't have those and since I've got some 6 unprotected RCR123s sitting around, I thought it'd be put to good use in the M6. The label says 800mah, but from past experience its more like 550mah. So running them at 1.05a would *just* be within safe limits...

Thanks for the info guys! Now I just have to get a good deal on that used M6 with no bulbs, box or papers...:thinking:


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## bagman (Jul 5, 2008)

Outdoors Fanatic said:


> Are you using the black or blue AWs?



Black ones, the ones I tried were the some of his very early protected back ones bought just after they were released.

I didn't want to force them in to the battery holder


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## ToeMoss (Jul 6, 2008)

New cells fit perfectly.


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## Illum (Jul 6, 2008)

bagman said:


> I was going to try this with my M6 but the AW protected RCR123's I have were too long to fit in the SF battery holder.
> 
> Which brand do people use for this set up please?



I noticed that AW redesigned their cells to have an extra nipple height for applications that otherwise may need a spacer but I haven't heard of any cases were RCR123As fail to fit in a CR123A space:thinking:

it could be your M6 carrier too...I had a chat with DM51 about it, supposedly theres one version with spring contacts while the other had stiff metal contacts.


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## mdocod (Jul 7, 2008)

oh yea, forgot to mention:

since you are dealing unprotected cells, just make a mental note to keep track of runtime, try to only use it maybe 10 minutes or so before recharging.. 

when you remove the cells, check the voltage on all of them before charging, provided they are all above 3V, they are fine, go ahead and charge em up and do another round. 

The cells should discharge very evenly towards the "top" of their capacity, as you get towards the bottom of their capacity, you will notice greater and greater discrepancy in voltage from cell to cell after the discharge as no 2 RCR123s every seem to be alike in capacity, lol...

over discharging by itself is rarely a problem, it's charging an over discharged cell that can cause a lot of problems, so just check em frequently.

It would also be wise to check the voltage when they come off the charger and have had a few minutes to rest, make sure they are all holding steady at a similar voltage and aren't loosing too much from fresh off the charger to a few minutes later, when they won't hold above 4.0V after resting off the charger they should be disposed of properly. 

If you follow these rules of thumb, you shouldn't have any problems playing with you HO-M6R with your unprotected cells, but please do make regular testing a part of your routine with them. 

An investment in protected cells is never a bad idea, you can be a *little* lazier with them  (I still suggest frequent testing anyways)

Eric


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## Fusion_m8 (Jul 7, 2008)

Yeah I won't be taking any risks with unprotected cells.

Just out of curiousity, can I run the MN15 or EO-M3T in the M6, if so what battery configurations can I use? 3x17670? 6xCR123a?


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## mdocod (Jul 7, 2008)

M3T bulbs (excluding the MN16) can be run on primary CR123s in the standard M6 pack, or on a 2x18650 adapter (I'm working on one). Running RCR123s or 17670s will blow those ~7V M3T bulbs, the HO-M6R is a 10.8V bulb IIRC.


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## Patriot (Jul 7, 2008)

If those 880mah cells you're describing are Ultrafire, I wouldn't use them for this application. IMO they're very low quality and often 1-2mm longer than a Surefire primary so wouldn't fit anyhow. 


I've never come across a black AW123 that didn't fit in the M6 battery holder. Some might be 1mm, or less, longer but that seems to be ok for the holder. I have one M6 specifically set up on the HO-M6R and 6 X AW123's and it's a very nice set-up. It fall a little behind the output of the MN21 but it also runs longer and the guilt free lumens are great! Like mdocod stated, LF really did their homework with that lamp. It's a satisfying performer. 

The MN15 is one of my favorite lamps in the M6 now. You have to use primaries but the batteries last for a very long time and the beam stays very white. I prefer it over the "450 lumen" EO-M3T also.


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## Fusion_m8 (Jul 8, 2008)

That blue LIR123 800mah cell(6 of them) is what I'm using to power the M6. I'd NEVER buy those dodgy Trustfire/Ultrafire RCR123s again after more than half of them failed on me for no reason! They weren't being overloaded as I was using them to power my Lumapower M1 Cree P4 driven at 0.85A.

From the pics, you can see that AW's cell is about 0.5mm taller than a Surefire CR123a which in turn is 0.5mm taller than the LIR123. That being said, I'm confident I won't have any issues with the AW RCR123s in the MB20, but the unfortunate thing is I don't have enough to power the M6. I only have 4 AW RCR123s.

The LIR123s have been used to power a HO-9 and a P90 in my M2. They have performed flawlessly so far, much better than the Trustfires/Ultrafires!


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## Patriot (Jul 8, 2008)

Fusion_m8 said:


> I'm confident I won't have any issues with the AW RCR123s in the MB20, but the unfortunate thing is I don't have enough to power the M6. I only have 4 AW RCR123s.




...and I'm sure you already know not to mix them.


Lighthound's price on AW RCR 123's is very reasonable.


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## mwaldron (Jul 8, 2008)

Patriot36 said:


> ...and I'm sure you already know not to mix them.
> 
> 
> Lighthound's price on AW RCR 123's is very reasonable.



Yes it is I was looking at them today, but I couldn't help but noticing a lack of charging method. They have a 1x charger for ~$8 and a 2x for ~$12, is there any single 6x or 8x charger?

I have a highly customizable generic charger I could use to charge 6x directly in the M6 pack, but it seems like a waste if a reasonably economical alternative is available.

I'm not sure I'm going to run RCR's in my M6 (leaning towards 2x18650 and primaries) but it's always nice to have options!


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## Patriot (Jul 8, 2008)

mwaldron said:


> is there any single 6x or 8x charger?




No, unfortunately. Only single and double chargers that I know of.


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## mdocod (Jul 8, 2008)

in order to charge 6-8 cells at a time, you might consider making a custom cradle for them that wires em up in parallel, then just buy something like this:
http://www.batteryjunction.com/p4em-3839.html

I'm not sure how well that charger does as far as proper charging termination so maybe some research is in order, but with that 2A setting you could charge 6-8 cells at a pretty respectable rate. 


Eric


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## Patriot (Jul 8, 2008)

mdocod said:


> in order to charge 6-8 cells at a time, you might consider making a custom cradle for them that wires em up in parallel, then just buy something like this:
> http://www.batteryjunction.com/p4em-3839.html
> 
> I'm not sure how well that charger does as far as proper charging termination so maybe some research is in order, but with that 2A setting you could charge 6-8 cells at a pretty respectable rate.
> ...




mdocod, with a charger like that, how does it know when to shut off?


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## Fusion_m8 (Jul 8, 2008)

Aw man:sigh: I was thinking of using 2xSurefire CR123s, 2xAW RCR123s and 2xLIR123s in the MB20... to make a roadside IED 



Patriot36 said:


> ...and I'm sure you already know not to mix them.
> 
> 
> Lighthound's price on AW RCR 123's is very reasonable.


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## mdocod (Jul 8, 2008)

Patriot36 said:


> mdocod, with a charger like that, how does it know when to shut off?



 According to the description:
"[FONT=arial, helvetica]With LED light and beeper to indicate the charging status"

I could only assume that is will terminate the charge and turn "green" or something like that like most other li-ion chargers.

When you charge li-ion cells in parallel, they all balance out to the same voltage and are seen by the charger as a single larger capacity cell.

Only word of caution would be to make sure not to charge less than 4 cells at a time on the 2 amp setting, it would probably be smartest to load the cells either with the charger unplugged, or with it set to the lowest charge rate first then crank it up after loading is complete. For less cells at a time, you'd want to turn it down, no more than 500mA per cell in the charger. 

[edit in]: I'm assuming the charger probably has a 1 cell and 2 cell "switch" that needs to be set. Set to "1 cell/3.7V" for use with cell in parallel. I could be wrong about this, might be worth a quick email questionnaire to batteryjunction to make sure. 

YES I'M PLAYING AROUND WITH A NEW FONT/s!!!!
MUAHAHAHA
 [/FONT]


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## Fusion_m8 (Jul 10, 2008)

Can't wait for my M6 to arrive! Hopefully it'll be here tomorrow in time for the weekend.

I have to admit when I first saw the M6 I thought it was one of the ugliest flashlights I've seen. However after 2 years and reading so much about its performance and reliabilty from anything such as weekend camping trip to busting down doors in Iraq, its now a love-hate situation for me!


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## mwaldron (Jul 10, 2008)

I had planned on getting my M6 before the weekend as well, the seller told me it would ship Monday but he has not answered any PMs or emails since Sunday. I'm starting to get nervous....

I'm still deciding how best to feed the beast. 50x Energizer 123's are only $65.

12xRCR123 + 3x Charger + LF Bulb...that gets expensive quick. 

Some of the other hard to get battery holders (3x17670, 2x18650, etc) look like good options too...

I'm not yet convinced Primaries aren't the way to go, but I'm going to have lots of options. I'll need more M6's just to play with everything at the rate i'm going.


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## Fusion_m8 (Jul 10, 2008)

I'm not sure if you've seen the performance of the HO-M6R lamp, but its mighty impressive. Those who have used it put the output of the HO-M6R as between the MN20 and MN21. I'm currently using it in my M4 with 3x17670s and it eats the EO-M3T for breakfast!

If you're using primaries, the MN15 is the way to go. That way you'll get decent output(200+lumens) and runtimes of around 120mins before any noticeable dimming.


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## mwaldron (Jul 10, 2008)

I'm certainly going to get a MN-15 for most uses, I've read js' thread a few times on it and it sounds like an awesome combination. It will almost certainly be the default bulb in my M6 if I run primaries.

I also ordered 2x of FiveMega's Bi-Pin adapters some hotwire action when I can get the power issues sorted out. I may not be able to use them for a while but with FM items you just sort of have to buy them and hope for the rest of the parts to your puzzle! 

I could build some nice packs for the M6 myself, but I'd like to find a source of small regulator boards like the old Willie Hunt LVR's but they don't seem to exist anymore.


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## Fusion_m8 (Jul 10, 2008)

Woah there...thats a bit over my head... you'll need THE ORACLE(s)...cue mdocod or DM51


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## mwaldron (Jul 10, 2008)

I'm giddy with excitement to get this new "toy." My most powerful light is currently a SF L2...

I've always liked the design of the M6, something about the scalloped grip area and the "fins" around the bezel and neck really have held my attention.

I've spent the last week reading everything there is on CPF about the M6 and it's lamps. Do you have any idea how many threads there are on this thing? It's worse than the A2 (my favorite light so far). Battery holders, NiMh packs, regulators, cases, holsters, bulbs, replacement heads, WA bumbs, LF, SF, underdriving, overdriving, 18650s, 17670s etc. My head is mostly spinning. I've probably confused myself a fair bit too.

The worst problem with the M6 is it has all these wonderful custom accessories...and almost none are actually available.


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## Fusion_m8 (Jul 10, 2008)

I'm still awed by Milky's M420-M6 mod... I heard puts out 1000lumens without breaking a sweatoo:


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## ttran97 (Jul 10, 2008)

milkyspit just finished this for SS2NV and it puts out 1600+ without a sweat. :naughty:


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## Fusion_m8 (Jul 10, 2008)

[email protected]#@K ME!!! 1628lumens!!!! One would have wondered why he didn't squeeze a 7th Cree in there...





Wife will :whoopin: my @ss!


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## Fusion_m8 (Jul 10, 2008)

This charger looks interesting, pretty good reviews too. Not too economical tho...



mwaldron said:


> Yes it is I was looking at them today, but I couldn't help but noticing a lack of charging method. They have a 1x charger for ~$8 and a 2x for ~$12, is there any single 6x or 8x charger?
> 
> I have a highly customizable generic charger I could use to charge 6x directly in the M6 pack, but it seems like a waste if a reasonably economical alternative is available.
> 
> I'm not sure I'm going to run RCR's in my M6 (leaning towards 2x18650 and primaries) but it's always nice to have options!


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## mwaldron (Jul 10, 2008)

Wow that Milky creation looks intense. Not for me though, I think I'm going to stick with incandescent on this one. 

That charger looks interesting, I have a custom-designed charger some engineering friends worked on a few years ago that I made the software for, I'll likely use that to charge packs. It's pretty nice, 100% software definable battery charger with highly accurate A-Ds.


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## Fusion_m8 (Jul 11, 2008)

Question: Can I run the MN60/MN61 in the M6 with 6xLIR123s? I think thats not overdriving the lamps or cells is it?


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## mdocod (Jul 11, 2008)

I think it was Js that ran a LONG thread on the running of the MN60 and MN61 bulbs in the M6 on RCR123s, also on 3x17670 adapters.

A few things to know:

1. The MN60 will usually survive this, but is overdriven pretty well.

2. The MN61 is really hard on RCR123s as it's just shy of 3 amps on that overdrive. (split between 2 stacks that's ~1.4-1.5A load per cell). And it is very heavily overdriven. Some times it survives sometimes it doesn't. Good luck 

The HO-M6R is in every way your best bet for normal use of RCR123s in a M6, but if you want to play around with an MN61, it can brighter than the MN21 when heavily overdriven.


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## Fusion_m8 (Jul 19, 2008)

Just a question about Surefire KT4 turboheads, are they hand made or machine made? 

It appears that the same KT4 turbohead can have 2 different types of reflectors: Light Orange Peel and Medium Orange Peel. The M4 reflector on the left has a LOP finish and a cleaner beam with no artifacts than the M6 which came with a MOP that is more reflective and gives better throw but has an untidier beam.

Owners of multiple KT4 heads: do you notice the same thing about your KT4s???


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