# Which Lithium chemistry is best? And why? ICR vs IMR vs INR, etc.



## Eneloops (May 20, 2015)

Cobalt vs Manganese Oxide vs Manganese Nickel? From my limited research, it appears that IMR and INR are the safest, and don't really need protection circuits (as much), and have much higher "C Ratings" for current draw. Have these chemistries replaced the ICR batteries? If not, when should you use the ICR over the IMR or INR? Does one have more _charging-cycles_ than another? Are there any benefits of ICR over IMR or INR for certain applications? 

Is ICR just older technology, replaced by IMR, and then replaced with INR? Should I just always go for INR when in doubt? Any help appreciated, thanks!


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## HKJ (May 20, 2015)

Basically none of these chemistries are used any more, modern LiIon cells uses a mix between them.


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## snakyjake (May 20, 2015)

My preference is IFR.


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## Eneloops (May 20, 2015)

HKJ said:


> Basically none of these chemistries are used any more, modern LiIon cells uses a mix between them.



Thanks, you're the goto resource for all things battery related, so I pay attention when you post, but these older chemistries are the only ones I've purchased recently. I didn't realize there were even newer options (this industry is FAST!). 

I thought I was just now catching up with my new LG HE2 and Samsung 25R cells, after stocking up on a bunch of Panasonic 18650B cells, which I think are unprotected ICR types. I just can't seem to get ahead in this game!


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## HKJ (May 20, 2015)

Eneloops said:


> Thanks, you're the goto resource for all things battery related, so I pay attention when you post, but these older chemistries are the only ones I've purchased recently. I didn't realize there were even newer options (this industry is FAST!).
> 
> I thought I was just now catching up with my new LG HE2 and Samsung 25R cells, after stocking up on a bunch of Panasonic 18650B cells, which I think are unprotected ICR types. I just can't seem to get ahead in this game!



It is not the old one you are buying, but the new hybrid chemistries. You do not get 3000mAh or more with a ICR cell or 2500mAh with a INR/IMR chemistry.


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## archimedes (May 20, 2015)

HKJ said:


> It is not the old one you are buying, but the new hybrid chemistries. You do not get 3000mAh or more with a ICR cell or 2500mAh with a INR/IMR chemistry.


Any good links to more info on the new hybrid chemistries ... ?


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## HKJ (May 20, 2015)

archimedes said:


> Any good links to more info on the new hybrid chemistries ... ?



I do not have any links saved, but you can see them in some datasheets and the general battery source has a bit about it: http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/types_of_lithium_ion (Their articles are not up to date, but very useful anyway).


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## ven (May 20, 2015)

I use all,for run times in "undemanding" uses(say sub 4a) then ICR 3400 pany cells,naked as Chris puts it. Not too demanding then protected ICR for multi cell lights like the tm15 to name one. More high demanding lights then 25R or LG 2500 etc etc like the triple quad and tm06vn to name just 2.

INR and IMR i use in ecig mods due to higher amp ask,not that i push them to what they are rated,maybe 6a-8a tops depending on atty ohm.

Then the world of vinh,modded lights i again use IMR or INR in both single and multi cell lights. With cells like the 30q at 3000mah and 15a rating,also pany BDs 3200mah and 10a and soon 3500mah............well INR or IMR hybrid cells make a good choice imo. Come a long way from 1500/2000mah for run times in lights. No tight fitting in carriers,no squashing of springs with PCB's taking up 3-4 or so mm(example).

My latest cells have been pany BDs,Samsung 30q and 25R,LG 2500,Efest 2500 and 3100mah. Guess a trend going here :laughing: For the lack of 300-400mah,i pefer the more stable chemistry as i dont run cells down all the way .

I would say just best for a specific aplication,ICR still hold their own like pany B for run times and life cycles.................


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## HKJ (May 20, 2015)

ven said:


> I use all,for run times in "undemanding" uses(say sub 4a) then ICR 3400 pany cells



They are not ICR, Panasonic calles them Nickel Oxide based platform, that would make them INR, but the "platform" means they add a couple of other elements making them a hybrid.


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## ChrisGarrett (May 20, 2015)

HKJ said:


> They are not ICR, Panasonic calles them Nickel Oxide based platform, that would make them INR, but the "platform" means they add a couple of other elements making them a hybrid.



That's why Panasonic uses the prefix 'NCR' before their li-co offerings.

Nickel/cobalt/dioxide, I guess?


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## ven (May 20, 2015)

Thanks for correction,i should have NCR 18650 B or A


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## recDNA (May 20, 2015)

HKJ said:


> Basically none of these chemistries are used any more, modern LiIon cells uses a mix between them.



Then imr not safe any more?


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## HKJ (May 20, 2015)

recDNA said:


> Then imr not safe any more?



They are probably safer now, at least from the big brands like Panasonic, LG, Samsung, etc.
Batteries usual has to pass a couple of test, like overcharge, short circuit, heat, dropping, before that cell type is sold. The battery need not to work after the test, but there must be no fire or explosion.

From the Samsung ICR18650-32A datasheet:
Drop: Onto oak from 1.5meter 6 times.
Heating: 120C for 60 minutes
Over charge: 12V 3.2A for 2.5 hours
Reverse charge: -12V 3.2A for 2.5 hours


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## magellan (May 21, 2015)

HKJ said:


> They are probably safer now, at least from the big brands like Panasonic, LG, Samsung, etc.
> Batteries usual has to pass a couple of test, like overcharge, short circuit, heat, dropping, before that cell type is sold. The battery need not to work after the test, but there must be no fire or explosion.
> 
> From the Samsung ICR18650-32A datasheet:
> ...



-12V 3.2A for 2.5 hours? Jeez, I don't feel so bad sometimes sticking the cells in backwards for a few seconds. I had no idea batteries could withstand that.

I mean, with that sort of reverse tolerance it would seem that driving batteries in series into the much feared reverse polarity condition doesn't cause a problem most of the time?


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## HKJ (May 21, 2015)

magellan said:


> -12V 3.2A for 2.5 hours? Jeez, I don't feel so bad sometimes sticking the cells in backwards for a few seconds. I had no idea batteries could withstand that.



Be careful with saying withstand, the battery is toast after that and it will probably vent, but as long as there are *no sparks* you will not get any fire or explosion.


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## magellan (May 21, 2015)

HKJ said:


> Be careful with saying withstand, the battery is toast after that and it will probably vent, but as long as there are *no sparks* you will not get any fire or explosion.



Yikes. So the battery is pretty well cooked after that and should be thrown away. Very interesting and good to know, thanks. I won't be putting those batteries back into service.  (Not that I expect to have any).


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## NettyNett911 (Jul 1, 2015)

HKJ said:


> Be careful with saying withstand, the battery is toast after that and it will probably vent, but as long as there are *no sparks* you will not get any fire or explosion.




Sorry for the double post, computer is being glitchy. My question/confusion is about the blue Samsung batteries--specifically the 2500mAh 3.7v. I'm trying to buy some online after grabbing one in a vape shop and they told me that this battery is an IMR. The only ones I'm able to find ANYWHERE on the internet have an INR designation. I know you said a lot of these use hybrid chemistry now but my local vape guy said a lot of companies also try to re-wrap their own batteries like some of the more popular ones so I want to be sure before I move forward. Can you tell me why they all say INR? Also, if you know any good online stores/Amazon sellers that have the real Samsung 2500mah 3.7's?

Thanks in advance!


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## RetroTechie (Jul 2, 2015)

ChrisGarrett said:


> That's why Panasonic uses the prefix 'NCR' before their li-co offerings.
> 
> Nickel/cobalt/dioxide, I guess?


Guess again... I've got a "PRODUCT SAFETY DATA SHEET" here, dated Dec. 7, 2010. Lots of legalese, info on packaging, (shipping) label, protective gear etc, but more interesting (imho) are the materials used.

I _suspect_ the NCR18650B is just slightly improved NCR18650A, either with same or _very_ similar chemistry (which doesn't include cobalt!). For other cells, copy 'n pasted:

NCR18650A
Positive electrode; Lithium nickel oxide 20-35wt%
Enclosure; Plastic
= "INR" ?

NCR18650 and CGR18650E / CGR17360 (different sections in the document, but identical materials listed)
Positive electrode; Lithium cobalt oxide 20-35wt%
that would be "ICR"

CGR14500 / CGR18650CG / CGR18650CH /CGR18650DA / CGR18650K / CGR18650KA / CGR26650A / CGR26650B
Positive electrode; Lithium nickel manganese cobalt oxide 20-35wt%
= "NMC" ? One of those newer "hybrids", IIRC a popular choice for e-bikes

Same for all types mentioned here: (and of course construction, electrolyte additives, exact form of carbon used etc may all be different)

Negative electrode; Carbon 10-20wt%
Electrolyte; Organic electrolyte (mainly composed of alkyl carbonate) 10-20wt%


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## recDNA (Jul 2, 2015)

HKJ said:


> Basically none of these chemistries are used any more, modern LiIon cells uses a mix between them.


So when I purchase AW imr 16430 550mAh just because of "safe" chemistry they are in fact no safer than batteries marked icr?


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## HKJ (Jul 3, 2015)

recDNA said:


> So when I purchase AW imr 16430 550mAh just because of "safe" chemistry they are in fact no safer than batteries marked icr?



It is difficult to answer, it depends on the actual cells construction.


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## StorminMatt (Jul 4, 2015)

One thing I HAVE noticed is that true ICR cells maintain voltage with decreasing state of charge better than hybrid cells. If, for instance, you compare the older Sanyo UR series cells to the newer Sanyo/Panasonic NCR cells, you can REALLY tell the difference - the UR cells have a much flatter discharge curve.


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## magellan (Jul 4, 2015)

Interesting. Do they still make the URs?


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## magellan (Jul 4, 2015)

ven said:


> I use all,for run times in "undemanding" uses(say sub 4a) then ICR 3400 pany cells,naked as Chris puts it. Not too demanding then protected ICR for multi cell lights like the tm15 to name one. More high demanding lights then 25R or LG 2500 etc etc like the triple quad and tm06vn to name just 2.
> 
> INR and IMR i use in ecig mods due to higher amp ask,not that i push them to what they are rated,maybe 6a-8a tops depending on atty ohm.
> 
> ...



Ven, you're tried many vaping device and battery combos. Is there a stand out that you like especially?

Also, in the vaping community do you see any emerging preference or shift for a particular chemistry and/or battery?


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## ven (Jul 4, 2015)

Hi there magellan , I don't really go on vape forums much , so not too sure on the latest brand choices . IMR/INR chemistries will be what's used in higher demanding applications(sub ohm) . 

For me I like Samsung ,LG ,Sony ,Panasonic and Efest flavours,to pick out of them would be difficult. I have found there is not much in it with my uses/demands ,even if one cell is 2500 mah and another 3100 mah when vaping. 

Flashlight wise i have 25R's and LG's mainly for higher drain multi cell flashlights , I even have some in lower drain lights too(another bonus being a little shorter due to no PCB). I have more Samsung than LG,latest are the 30Q which IMO offer a good balance of runtime/performance/value with 3000 mah 15A .


The new Sanyo 3500 10A are on my list for future purchases to try out:thumbsup:


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## magellan (Jul 5, 2015)

Thanks for the info!


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