# Which 600+ lumen flashlight to get?



## hazna (May 6, 2009)

Seems like there is now a huge range of MCE/P7/triple cree flashlights is now available on the market. I'd like to get one for some powerful lumens but at a loss on which one to get. 

Originally I was eyeing off the Fenix TK40 because I like the AA factor, as I currently do not have li-ion batteries. However thinking about it; 16xAA (2 sets) is a lot of rechargeable NiMH batteries that I'll need to get. Plus I'd need a new charger if I plan on charging all 8 in the one go.

I like the look of the eagletac m2/m2x, form factor seems good and quite different from other brands... waiting to hear reviews for it. I'd be fine getting some 18650 li-ions for it.

Then theres also the range from tiablo, jetbeam, olight m30. I don't like the look of the olight M30 though... its too sharp and pointy for me

Just wanted to start a discussion and comparison between whats out there.


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## jankj (May 6, 2009)

I'm sort of dreaming I had the budget to spend $331 on a sunlite 16w ($228) with these accessories ($103): 

- Car charger
- Short 8w body
- 2600 mAh battery (for the short body)
- Headband 

The shorter body will give shorter runtime and slightly less output, but will be more pocketable. Both the short (16w head on 8w body) and the long version (16w head&body) will give you a two mode light, around 100'ish lumens on low and 5-600 on high. As you can see, I'm also a fan of headlamp for some applications. I'm not sure if you can use an ordinary battery (such as 18650) in this light, but I don't think so. 

Check it out on http://www.powerledlighting.com/ You will find a link to a couple of CPF reviews, or search this forums for more. 

Technically, it will be less than your specified 600 lumens but pretty close... 

The price is pretty steep, but for allmost every other light you must include the cost of batteries and charger, which are inluded here.


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## jankj (May 6, 2009)

A perhaps more realistic budget alternative is the MG RX-1 ($61) from shiningbeam.com. 

http://www.shiningbeam.com/servlet/the-125/**NEW**-MG-RX-dsh-1-Cree/Detail

Reviews can be found at the forum or in the above link. I have a particular sweet spot for vendors that include links to independent reviews on their web page. 


I've also read at CPF that the MG RX-1 will have a little brother with smaller head, to be released anytime soon.


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## callmaster (May 6, 2009)

Get something custom made!

You'll get alot more than the 600-700 lumens that you would from the production lights.


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## Ryanrpm (May 6, 2009)

There are several review threads which compare some of these high output lights. May I ask what your other intended use would be for one other than one that has 'powerful lumens'? 

Here is a list of basically what is currently out there:






Some info is missing...but most of it is there. These all have their good points and bad points.

Edit....just noticed I don't have the RX-1 on there.....and I have the Raptor included, which is not technically a 'high-output' light.

*Edit: I've updated some info and added the RX-1 MC-E. Also removed the Raptor.*
*Edit: I've also taken out the M2X and adjusted the weights to include the batteries, since that is the weight we all care about.
Edit: Added some Lumapower and Ultrafire lights.
*


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## applevision (May 6, 2009)

Ryanrpm said:


> There are several review threads which compare some of these high output lights. May I ask what your other intended use would be for one other than one that has 'powerful lumens'?
> 
> 
> Some info is missing...but most of it is there. These all have their good points and bad points.
> ...



*Ryanrpm*, this is awesome! Thanks so much for a great chart! 

I too am in this boat and I think that there are MANY of us who are waiting to hear what the best of the best will be this generation. I think that the EagleTacs are bound to be great and am very excited about the Legion II if Neofab can get things together with production... The TK40 is a cool light but it didn't speak to me with the multiple AAs and the slightly odd form factor... but it is a contender none-the-less!:twothumbs


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## Sgt. LED (May 6, 2009)

*Which 600+ lumen flashlight to get?*

I have to start with this: Which 600+ lumen flashlight is currently shipping? There's a lot of vapor right now.


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## hazna (May 6, 2009)

Ryanrpm said:


> There are several review threads which compare some of these high output lights. May I ask what your other intended use would be for one other than one that has 'powerful lumens'?



I don't really have any particular intended use, other than general outdoor night-time usage. I just want 'powerful lumens' is that so much to ask? 

btw budget wise I was thinking the $150-200 mark


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## Tom_123 (May 6, 2009)

I consider myself still a newby, so take my comments with care. 

Lights that I own:

Wolf-Eyes sniper MC-E:

Fairly bright, well build, nice design and still small enough to be carried
around all day long in a jacket pocket or a briefcase.
My favorite light to date.

Solarforce L900m (SSC P7):

Not exactly an EDC light, but I sadly have to say
that in regards of brightness it will run circles around the
WE Sniper and probably most of the other lights.
Huge, bright spill and a spot twice as bright as the WE Sniper.


Light that I'm not particularly interested in:

Fenix TK40, because of the amount of batteries.

Tiabolo 10, just an on and off UI for a 600lm light? 

Jetbeam M1X, if I read the beamshots correct, it's more a thrower and a searchlight,
while I prefer a large and bright spill and don't need much throw.

Lights that I consider:

I heard rumours about a MC-E version of the Jetbeam Raptor,
this one would be very promising for me.

Olight M30, yes it has an odd design but if it is build as good as my Olight M20,
it would be something to consider. (can't wait to see the first reviews)

Neofab Legion II and EagleTac M2C4 

Interesting design, though I'm not sure if changing batteries
(in the dark middle of nowhere) will work without problems.

Solarforce L2 with MC-E drop in

A SF L2 with Q5 is on the way, if I like the build quality
I'll surely consider to get one with MC-E drop in.


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## HKJ (May 6, 2009)

Ryanrpm said:


> Here is a list of basically what is currently out there:



The TK40 is "out the front" lumens, and it fits very well with my measurements:
M1X is about 70% of TK40
TK40 is about 90% of Legion2


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## Dole (May 6, 2009)

I would go with the Tiablo ACE. It Seems to be a be a really solid flashlight. And don't be scared of using CR123's or 18650's... Just order a nice batch online.


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## extremetito (May 6, 2009)

And what about the Dereelight DBS MC-E? 500+ lumens out the front. 
Chopped liver?


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## Ryanrpm (May 6, 2009)

extremetito said:


> And what about the Dereelight DBS MC-E? 500+ lumens out the front.
> Chopped liver?


 
LOL!

I should add it in there too. I haven't personnaly seen a lot of attention on it lately...and assumed that many wouldn't consider it a decent comparison. 

_Have any of you all seen it in comparison to these newer quad emitter lights?_ I don't think it will hold up. 

Dereelight should design a purposeful MCE/P7 light that will take the lead.....maybe they have something in the works already...who knows.


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## SCEMan (May 6, 2009)

hazna:

I think you need to consider how large of a light (bezel primarily) you can manage. As a rule, the larger the bezel/reflector (assuming similar driver performance) the greater the output will be. The Sunlite is an exception due to it's proprietary LED.

I'd be curious to see an M30-DBS MC-E comparsion as both have similar reflector diameters, although the DBS reflector appears deeper.


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## MrGman (May 6, 2009)

I have built up my own 16 inch integration sphere system and have been working to "calibrate" it against all my lights I have taken readings of from the 6 inch IS system we have at work. I have gotten some really good readings on various flashlights in the 400 to 900 lumen range. bigchelis brought over several lights for me to test and compare to the solarforce L900M and Malkoff Triple drop in a 4C maglight that I have. I was actually trying to publish the spreadsheet last night using that google document upload resource. However, it was actually clipping off some of the data and everytime I tried to upload the updated spreadsheet with full data it wouldnt take it. So I may have to load all of that data manually like I have in my original thread.

Point is I am very close to taking very accurate relative measurements of the various high power lights one against another in the same system. It definitely can tell me which one is brighter compared to the other. Measuring P7 sources in a maglight head or the big head of the Solarforce units versus smaller P60 or D26 type modules, seems to be getting very good results. We put in an maglight that he had an aspheric lens for versus the reflector and got to see how much total light was being lost due to the aspheric lens not collecting all the light that the reflector did and sent forward. The larger 16 inch sphere does a good job at integrating the total light for these large units, having a 3 inch opening is not a problem.

So in time I would love to measure all of these different light types in the same system and see which one is the real high power winner for "out the front" lumens which are the only ones that matter to the end users. 

I will say that I got an 855 lumen reading out of one of bigchelis' lights that really surprised me. More to come later.


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## kramer5150 (May 6, 2009)

Theres _something _about that solarforce... Almost like if Surefire were to make a P7-2x18650 light THIS would be it.

$89 shipping from lighthound, typeIII, massive heat sinking... Love that deep dish OP reflector.

http://www.lighthound.com/Solarforc...e-Flashlight--2-x-18650-batteries_p_3014.html

Note I don't own this light... so I'm just drooling over www pages and CPF user reports.


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## Sgt. LED (May 6, 2009)

MrGman I am blaming you for the $150 hole in my wallet.

I picked up a Malkoff triple thanks to all your pics.


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## bigchelis (May 6, 2009)

Sgt. LED said:


> MrGman I am blaming you for the $150 hole in my wallet.
> 
> I picked up a Malkoff triple thanks to all your pics.


 
Everytime I visit MrGman I want to take that Malkoff Tripple home. It has the throw I want with the output of a P7..:twothumbs


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## sygyzy (May 6, 2009)

*Ryanrpm* - Your chart is amazing! Did you make it yourself? Do you have similar charts for things like AA flashlight, 2x123 lights under x grams, etc?


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## Ryanrpm (May 6, 2009)

sygyzy said:


> *Ryanrpm* - Your chart is amazing! Did you make it yourself? Do you have similar charts for things like AA flashlight, 2x123 lights under x grams, etc?


 
I wish! No, I don't have any other charts. I made it using a simple Excel sheet. I first created it a few months back when all of these high power lights started popping up all over the place and I wanted to keep all the specifics seperated and not mixed up. So I originally did it for myself. And another goal was to only include what we all would consider the 'pertinent' information. 

You can see some items are missing, like the driving amperage and weight of some....so if you all can help me find those, I know we all would benefit!:wave:

I should remove the Raptor (I included it because it is new) and make up another that contains only the top well known, single die, reflectored throwers...

Also....I'd like to replace the manufacturers ststed lumens with actual IS lumens. True out the front lumens. To the best of my knowledge, the only ones on that list that were gathered by an IS are the Sunlite 16w and the NeoFab Legion II.


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## jake25 (May 6, 2009)

kramer5150 said:


> Theres _something _about that solarforce... Almost like if Surefire were to make a P7-2x18650 light THIS would be it.
> 
> $89 shipping from lighthound, typeIII, massive heat sinking... Love that deep dish OP reflector.
> 
> ...


You're missing out kramer:naughty:


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## Ryanrpm (May 6, 2009)

jake25 said:


> You're missing out kramer:naughty:


 

Jake25....I know you now sell these Solarforce lights...so I can only assume you have the L950m in stock. Mind getting us some beamshots of it?

Please.:thumbsup:


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## jake25 (May 6, 2009)

Ryanrpm said:


> Jake25....I know you now sell these Solarforce lights...so I can only assume you have the L950m in stock. Mind getting us some beamshots of it?
> 
> Please.:thumbsup:


Sure I'll try to go out tonight

I'm no photog but I can take a few snaps


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## TITAN1833 (May 6, 2009)

I would certainly put the sunlite 16WFP 580 OTF lumen's on your list,the thing is! this will only get brighter in the near future with a side switch and battery upgrade I think we maybe talking well over 800+ lumen's OTF 

There are others mentioned here to consider too i.e the L2 748 lumen's reported OTF but! you may have to wait 748 days+ to get one 

The eagletac and fenix are also worth considering and are shipping now,so to is the 16WFP 

It's a tough time for choices ATM but! my choice would be the 16WFP it's proven it's self to be not only a great flood light but a thrower too 

But really you should not only choose wisely and take your time, but look into what CS they all offer most are good some are great others! really suck! :sigh:IMHO :green:


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## jake25 (May 6, 2009)

TITAN1833 said:


> But really you should not only choose wisely and take your time, but look into what CS they all offer most are good some are great others! really suck! :sigh:IMHO :green:


+1!


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## Ryanrpm (May 6, 2009)

Oh, and don't forget to show the L900 with the L950M...along with beamshots of both. 

Unless they disconinued the L900. Hmmmmm.


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## jake25 (May 6, 2009)

The L900 and 950 are pretty much the same besides the bin of the P7. I don't think it's noticeable in tint either

I only have the L950m, when I ordered them they did not have the regular 950 in stock.


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## kramer5150 (May 6, 2009)

jake25 said:


> You're missing out kramer:naughty:



Actually the bigger L1000 should be on the list too (IMHO). What the he11... its not like any of these things are remotely EDC-able anyways.:twothumbs

http://www.lighthound.com/Solarforc...e-Flashlight--3-x-18650-batteries_p_3015.html


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## TITAN1833 (May 6, 2009)

Hey! Ryan where did you get 300 grammes for the L2 from? FWIW it weighs 544 grammes with three 18650


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## Ryanrpm (May 6, 2009)

TITAN1833 said:


> Hey! Ryan where did you get 300 grammes for the L2 from? FWIW it weighs 544 grammes with three 18650


 
All the weights are _without_ batteries.

Most manufacturers don't give the weight with batteries...because it could vary from brand to brand.


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## TITAN1833 (May 6, 2009)

Ryanrpm said:


> All the weights are _without_ batteries.
> 
> Most manufacturers don't give the weight with batteries...because it could vary from brand to brand.


I Got ya! estimates, :thinking: thank you:twothumbs


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## hazna (May 6, 2009)

Geez, seems like theres even more to choose from now!

Size of the flashlight isn't a very big factor in my decision, as they're all too big for EDC. I think my major deciding factors are build quality/reliability, cost and user interface.

I don't know why, but I don't really like the appearnce of all those lights with the big head but relatively thin body (tiablo, jetbeam, solarforce). Doesn't look balanced/symmetrical. Still like the look of the eagletacs


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## jake25 (May 6, 2009)

Ryan a heads up, um, my city is on fire lol. 2nd year in a row Santa Barbara goes up in flames. 

I'll get pics when I can


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## Ryanrpm (May 6, 2009)

jake25 said:


> Ryan a heads up, um, my city is on fire lol. 2nd year in a row Santa Barbara goes up in flames.
> 
> I'll get pics when I can



Bummer dude. 

I know you'll get to it when ya can. Do you happen to have any other high power lights to compare with the L950M when you do the beamshots?


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## matrixshaman (May 6, 2009)

Careful out there in Cali ...

This one is 3.25" long by 1" diameter and 600 + Lumens with an IMR 16340 (current draw 2.7 Amps) and with a 17670 tube it will be about an inch or so longer and will likely do 700 to 800 plus Lumens with it's high setting drawing 3.1 amps current. This particular emitter is said to do 800 to 900 Lumens at 2.8 Amps. So yes my 600 + lumen flashlight is very EDC'able. Host is an HDS military version U60 which is to say it's essentially a Novatac body with different electronics and a DSWOI P7 emitter. Custom by darkzero - I'm sure he could build you something similar if you want it EDC'able.


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## kramer5150 (May 6, 2009)

hazna said:


> I don't know why, but I don't really like the appearnce of all those lights with the big head but relatively thin body (tiablo, jetbeam, solarforce). Doesn't look balanced/symmetrical. Still like the look of the eagletacs



nothing wrong with that at all... the smaller reflector lights should flood more with a less concentrated beam. So they offer more than just good looks.


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## bill_n_opus (May 6, 2009)

To me, price is a strong consideration. 

I already have a ton of Eneloops, got them cheap (like 4xAA for 10 bucks Canadian) and even have a couple of packs unopened. 

That's why the Fenix TK40 is a strong contender for my dollar because I already:

- have the batteries
- have a bunch of chargers
- don't have to invest big money (at least 50 bucks) for a couple of 18650's and dedicated charger
- and that doesn't even mention getting a spare backup set of batteries. 
- just plain don't have to invest in specific batteries for a flashlight. 

All in all, i'd seriously consider the Neo Legion2 offering ... great light by all accounts ... but getting into the li-ion battery game i'm not that interested in at this point in time.


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## jake25 (May 6, 2009)

Ryanrpm said:


> Bummer dude.
> 
> I know you'll get to it when ya can. Do you happen to have any other high power lights to compare with the L950M when you do the beamshots?


I have a ROP and a POB lol


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## bill_n_opus (May 6, 2009)

matrixshaman said:


> Careful out there in Cali ...
> 
> This one is 3.25" long by 1" diameter and 600 + Lumens with an IMR 16340 (current draw 2.7 Amps) and with a 17670 tube it will be about an inch or so longer and will likely do 700 to 800 plus Lumens with it's high setting drawing 3.1 amps current. This particular emitter is said to do 800 to 900 Lumens at 2.8 Amps. So yes my 600 + lumen flashlight is very EDC'able. Host is an HDS military version U60 which is to say it's essentially a Novatac body with different electronics and a DSWOI P7 emitter. Custom by darkzero - I'm sure he could build you something similar if you want it EDC'able.


 
Wow, nice ... but ... uhhhh ... how much did it run you back?


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## Ryanrpm (May 6, 2009)

jake25 said:


> I have a ROP and a POB lol



What is a POB?

I've seen a ROP in the TK40 thread.

So, sure, why not.....bring em on!


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## Benson (May 7, 2009)

hazna said:


> Size of the flashlight isn't a very big factor in my decision, as they're all too big for EDC. I think my major deciding factors are build quality/reliability, cost and user interface.
> 
> I don't know why, but I don't really like the appearnce of all those lights with the big head but relatively thin body (tiablo, jetbeam, solarforce). Doesn't look balanced/symmetrical.


+1 -- fortunately I don't care much about looks, but all else being equal, I do prefer the looks of straight-body or slightly larger heads -- for big reflectors, that means the 2- and 3-wide 18650 lights. The Eagletacs look nice, but I think my favorite is the Legion II, which I am 90% certain I'll buy once the cheaper version starts shipping (and I see a review or two).

But if you do want killer output (but _not_ killer throw) in a straight EDCable body, download and Sabrewolf have made some really nice MC-E and P7 lights. Unfortunately, since these are batch-customs, neither of them happens to be taking orders ATM. So I'm stuck impatiently waiting for sabrewolf to wrap up this batch and open orders on a second run. It sounds like download will be taking orders for a new run soonish, though.


Ryan: A POB is a Power On Board spotlight, 35W HID -- Sam's Club had a bunch of these (many with dead SLA batteries), and dumped them via online auctions and dirt-cheap clearance prices, so they've become a standard entry-level HID. They blow practically any LED flashlight away.


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## bigchelis (May 7, 2009)

This is a really nice light. In fact its looks too purteeeee to EDC:twothumbs

From my experience with P7's with high current and IMR 16340 cells I think eventhough on paper it should make say 600 to 900 lumens. With a small hosts like that you would be lucky if you got 400 lumens out the front. 

My Malkoff MC-E direct Drive in a Surefire 6P bored and IMR 18650 was thought to make 1000 plus lumens based on the High current of 3 to 4.5amps, but no it didn't even come close to 500 out the front as tested by MrGman.

Now my Maglight P7 DD with heavy duty heatsinking and 3 NiMH cells hit past the 800 lumens out the front, but not very EDC able.

Whether your light gives you 300 or 700 out the front doesn't take anything away from its form factor and it is still tons of light and more than most will ever need from an EDC that small.

I wish someone would volunteer their tiny P7 lights made by the greatest like milky for some real testing by MrGman. I still see many single cell IMR 16340's that claim 600 plus out the front. I have drooled over the many milky creations, but still have not seen anyone volunteer their custom P7/MC-E lights for true lumen readings not just paper specs. Having said that I think if any of these tiny P7 lights will make over 500 out the front lumens it will likely be one of the custom ones by Milky or the others in the Custom section.

bigchelis






matrixshaman said:


> Careful out there in Cali ...
> 
> This one is 3.25" long by 1" diameter and 600 + Lumens with an IMR 16340 (current draw 2.7 Amps) and with a 17670 tube it will be about an inch or so longer and will likely do 700 to 800 plus Lumens with it's high setting drawing 3.1 amps current. This particular emitter is said to do 800 to 900 Lumens at 2.8 Amps. So yes my 600 + lumen flashlight is very EDC'able. Host is an HDS military version U60 which is to say it's essentially a Novatac body with different electronics and a DSWOI P7 emitter. Custom by darkzero - I'm sure he could build you something similar if you want it EDC'able.


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## MrGman (May 7, 2009)

Readings I have taken in the new 16 inch integration sphere system. These are not 100% accurate but I would say no worse than 7% in either direction and for all these "white" lights compared to each other, I believe they show the true nature of what's brighter than what regardless of beam patterns.
Make/Model/ glass/etc.____________________Lumens, On time__,
Malkoff MC-E,Solar, AR Glass_________________________490.7,____0 sec_______,
Malkoff MC-E,Solar, AR Glass_________________________453.7,___60 sec_______,
Malkoff MC-E_W,Solar, AR Glass______________________416.7,____0 sec_______,
Malkoff MC-E_W,Solar, AR Glass______________________400.0,___60 sec_______,
Malkoff MC-E_W,Solar, AR Glass______________________392.6,__120 sec_______,
Nailbender P7,SF 6P AR Glass2 CR123 Pri______________446.3,____0 sec_______,
Nailbender P7,SF 6P AR Glass1X18650_________________356.7,____0 sec_______,
Nailbender P7,SF 6P AR Glass3.0VDC___________________66.1,___0 sec_______,
*Nailbender P7*,*SF 6P AR Glass**4.75VDC________________**688.9*,___*0 sec__**overdriven,*
Nailbender P7,1D Mag, !MR 18650,_____________________703.7,___0 sec_______,
Nailbender P7,1D Mag, !MR 18650,_____________________633.3,__30 sec_______,
Nailbender P7,1D Mag, !MR 18650,_____________________614.8,__60 sec_______,
Nailbender P7,1D Mag, !MR 18650,_____________________605.6,__90 sec_______,
Nailbender P7,1D Mag, !MR 18650,_____________________598.1,_120 sec_______,
Nailbender P7,1D Mag, !MR 18650,_____________________587.0,_180 sec_______,
Nailbender P7,2D mag, 3C NiMH Tnrg___________________870.4,___0 sec_______,
Nailbender P7,2D mag, 3C NiMH Tnrg___________________735.2,__30 sec_______,
Nailbender P7,2D mag, 3C NiMH Tnrg___________________718.5,__60 sec_______,
Nailbender P7,2D mag, 3C NiMH Tnrg___________________707.4,__90 sec_______,
Nailbender P7,2D mag, 3C NiMH Tnrg___________________698.1,_120 sec_______,
Nailbender P7,2D mag, 3C NiMH Tnrg___________________685.2,_180 sec_______,
Nail_B Cree XR-E R2,1D Mag, 1XIMR18650Aspheric_______167.0,___0 sec_______,
Nail_B Cree XR-E R2,1D Mag, 1XIMR18650Aspheric_______124.8,__30 sec_______,
Nail_B Cree XR-E R2,1D Mag, 1XIMR18650Aspheric_______124.3,__60 sec_______,
Nail_B Cree XR-E R2,1D Mag, 1XIMR18650Reflector_______232.8,___0 sec_______,
Nail_B Cree XR-E R2,1D Mag, 1XIMR18650Reflector_______178.9,__30 sec_______,
Nail_B Cree XR-E R2,1D Mag, 1XIMR18650Reflector_______178.7,__60 sec_______,
*SF M6 Host, WA1185 *,*3XAW17670 Lith Ion**Incandescent__**835.2*,___*0 sec*_______,
*SF M6 Host, WA1185 *,*3XAW17670 Lith Ion**Incandescent__**777.8*,__*30 sec*_______,
*SF M6 Host, WA1185 *,*3XAW17670 Lith Ion**Incandescent__**751.9*,__*60 sec*_______,
*Zep-5R2-SF M6 Host*,*3XAW17670 Lith Ion**5 Cree R2's,____**855.6*,___*0 sec*_______,
*Zep-5R2-SF M6 Host*,*3XAW17670 Lith Ion**5 Cree R2's,____**846.3*,__*30 sec*_______,
*Zep-5R2-SF M6 Host*,*3XAW17670 Lith Ion**5 Cree R2's,____**842.6*,__*60 sec*_______,
*Zep-5R2-SF M6 Host*,*3XAW17670 Lith Ion**5 Cree R2's,____**838.9*,_*120 sec*_______,
Malkoff M30,Solarforce, AR Glass_______________________227.6,___0 sec_______,
Malkoff M30,Solarforce, AR Glass_______________________217.4,__30 sec_______,
Malkoff M30,Solarforce, AR Glass_______________________214.8,__60 sec_______,
Malkoff M60 BC's,MD2 no glass,________________________212.4,___0 sec_______,
Malkoff M60 BC's,MD2 no glass,________________________193.9,__60 sec_______,
Malkoff M60 BC's,SF NO BZL,__________________________231.3,___0 sec_______,
Malkoff M60 BC's,SF NO BZL,__________________________217.4,__30 sec_______,
Malkoff M60 BC's,SF AR glass,_________________________216.9,___0 sec_______,
Malkoff M60 BC's,SF AR glass,_________________________202.6,__30 sec_______,
Malkoff Single for Mag,3 C cell Maglight,__________________203.7,___0 sec_______,
Malkoff Single for Mag,3 C cell Maglight,__________________177.2,__60 sec_______,
Malkoff Triple Drop,Maglight AR glass,____________________674.1,___0 sec_______,
Malkoff Triple Drop,Maglight AR glass,____________________605.6,__30 sec_______,
Malkoff Triple Drop,Maglight AR glass,____________________581.5,__60 sec_______,
Malkoff Triple Drop,Maglight AR glass,____________________568.5,__90 sec_______,
Malkoff Triple Drop,Maglight AR glass,____________________557.4,_120 sec_______,
Malkoff Triple Drop,Maglight AR glass,____________________550.0,_150 sec_______,
Malkoff Triple Drop,Maglight AR glass,____________________540.7,_180 sec_______,
Solarforce L900M_HIGH_______________________________670.4,___0 sec_______,
Solarforce L900M_HIGH_______________________________581.5,__30 sec_______,
Solarforce L900M_HIGH_______________________________572.2,__60 sec_______,
Solarforce L900M_HIGH_______________________________561.1,_120 sec_______,
Solarforce L900M_HIGH_______________________________553.7,_180 sec_______,
Solarforce L900M_Low________________________________358.0,___0 sec_______,
Solarforce L900M_Low________________________________343.5,__30 sec_______,


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## Ryanrpm (May 7, 2009)

I've updated the chart from page 1. It now includes the RX-1 MC-E, 'bins' are being listed under the emitters. And the Raptor has been removed as it is not a high power or quad emitter light.







*And based on the above post by MrGman...here are the high power LED lights at their 3 minute mark:*





*Edit: The charts above now contain weights WITH batteries, since that is the weight we all care about...and I've removed the M2X. For criteria of why these lights are compiled this way, see **this post**. *

*And to put things in perspective concerning the drop in output because of the heat of the emitter....the Solarforce L900M which is regulated had a 17% drop in output in 3 minutes, while the Sunlite 16w, which is not regulated, had a 2.5% drop in output in 6 minutes. (per Sunlites IS measuring) This is simply good evidence at how well good heatsinking plays a part in a lights extended output.

Edit: Added the Lumapower MVP...
*


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## MrGman (May 7, 2009)

The Solarforce uses 2XAW18650 as recommended in the Lighthound website. They were of course freshly charged.

the Malkoff Triple uses 3 Cree XR-E Q5's per conversation with Gene a while back. the batteries are the Tenergy 5 ampere hour rated C cells, 4 total.

Obviously I would like to test all of the other lights on your list in the same system for direct reference now that I have it but I can certainly say I have no intention of buying them just for the sake of testing. People want to send them to me, send me a private message, we can get them all done and put them all in this chart.

Thanks Ryan, May want to publish the 1 minute mark as well. or use the 2 minute mark that some people have set as the "warm up" standard time wait already on previous threads. Just a thought. That's why I tried to cover the bases. G.


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## bigchelis (May 7, 2009)

Ryan,

Here is the link for ZED's Surefire M6 drop-ins readily available.

https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/228982

My ZED M6 5R2 drop-in made 800 plus after 3 minutes with MrGmans test.


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## hazna (May 8, 2009)

thats a great chart ryanrpm! Would be good if it also had the rough cost of the flashlights too


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## eyeeatingfish (May 8, 2009)

Ryanrpm said:


> There are several review threads which compare some of these high output lights. May I ask what your other intended use would be for one other than one that has 'powerful lumens'?
> 
> Here is a list of basically what is currently out there:
> 
> ...


 
Dont forget the lumapower P7 light. MVP turboforce or something like that. Its been out for a while too.


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## Glenn7 (May 8, 2009)

Great graph Ryan :thumbsup::thumbsup: - only problem is you have opened a can of worms - as in all these high powered lights will pop up and will have to be added  :thumbsup:
you might have to stipulate multi die (as in P7/MC-E) lights only as the list will get too big too quick (but that would mean canning the M2X)
I say because you will have to add the Lumapower MVP TurboForce P7 and the Lumapower MVP 3xCree also - then I could suggest the WiseLed 1500(1800lumens) and the WiseLed Street(780lumens) - then you have the Wolfeyes Storm/Thunder and superstorm - and I can think of a bunch more if you want :nana: - just a thought 4 u 

edit: do your rules allow optics too - coz if they do then you can go back to a single Cree with optics that will have a higher LUX/throw ie: Tiablo A9 with optics - and I have a DEFT - see a can of worms :kiss:


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## Ultra-bright (May 8, 2009)

Just received Twitter from Fenixlight. TK40 just received a review from Blue Sheepdog. Very interesting review. I wonder how many 600+ lumens flashlight can take the same abuse. Blue Sheepdog review link:

http://www.bluesheepdog.com/2009/05/05/fenix-tk40-flashlight-review/


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## Ultra-bright (May 8, 2009)

Just received Twitter from Fenixlight. TK40 just received a review from Blue Sheepdog. Very interesting review. I wonder how many 600+ lumens flashlight can take the same abuse. Blue Sheepdog review link:

http://www.bluesheepdog.com/2009/05/...hlight-review/





http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/editpost.php?do=editpost&p=2946355


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## kramer5150 (May 8, 2009)

Wow these things dim a LOT after a little warm up.

Nail_B Cree XR-E R2,1D Mag, 1XIMR18650Reflector_______232.8,___0 sec_______,
Nail_B Cree XR-E R2,1D Mag, 1XIMR18650Reflector_______178.7,__60 sec_______,

After just 60 seconds the Nail-B R2 drops output by 23%... and thats in a BIG host with sufficient thermal cooling. What current is the R2 driven with in this light?

Is this just a characteristic of the R2 BIN, or do all Q-BINS dip this significantly when driven hard?

Would a Q-BIN XR-E exhibit a more stable output?
Would an MC-E in this light, driven with the same current exhibit a more stable output?


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## bigchelis (May 8, 2009)

kramer5150 said:


> Wow these things dim a LOT after a little warm up.
> 
> Nail_B Cree XR-E R2,1D Mag, 1XIMR18650Reflector_______232.8,___0 sec_______,
> Nail_B Cree XR-E R2,1D Mag, 1XIMR18650Reflector_______178.7,__60 sec_______,
> ...


 

I think the rapid lost in Lumens was due to overdriving the LED at 1.4amps. I sent it back to Nailbender to put a 1A driver. He said its ready to be sent back to me. IMHO at 1A; I will see less of a drop and I will get more lumens. I think I will get close to 245 out the front in the same sphere done by MrGman.:candle::candle::candle::candle::candle:

MrGman, cant thank you enough for lending your help and equipment in getting these readings.


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## Ainsley (May 8, 2009)

I found a pretty good video giving an overview of the Fenix, Olight and Jetbeam models, hopefully it is helpful.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BlQ7vzXqz4A


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## qip (May 8, 2009)

M2 all flavors looks sweet


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## MrGman (May 8, 2009)

bigchelis said:


> I think the rapid lost in Lumens was due to overdriving the LED at 1.4amps. I sent it back to Nailbender to put a 1A driver. He said its ready to be sent back to me. IMHO at 1A; I will see less of a drop and I will get more lumens. I think I will get close to 245 out the front in the same sphere done by MrGman.:candle::candle::candle::candle::candle:
> 
> MrGman, cant thank you enough for lending your help and equipment in getting these readings.


 

Send more pizza!. 

I think the main reason for the drop in output with any of these modules like this is because there is not enough heatsinking into a P60 or D26 type module for any P7 or MC-E and that the Maglight units also don't get enough heatsinking connection out to the casing of the maglight head. 

More power into a small LED chip means much better heatsinking is required plain and simple. Pumping 10 to 15 watts of power into LEDs requires thermally conductive mass to handle that power. When phosphors heat up they lose efficiency as so there will always be that initial drop but it should stabilize if the unit is passing the heat out to a much larger mass. If there is a resistance to that pass you will see a continued drop. That big 5 R2 unit that goes into the M6 and had 5 separate dice spread out in the head was much better at holding the output level high mostly because of that better spreading out of the heat into the heatsink that having it all concentrated in one small area and trying to get it out from that cental point through a thermal resistance.

I don't think its actually because of the chip type R2 versus Q 5 or bin as much as, the chip being given the lowest possible thermal resistive path to a big block of Aluminum heatsink mass.

So far the Legion II is the best example of this but its a dedicated flashlight, not a drop in to a mag or a 6P type host.


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## qip (May 8, 2009)

Ainsley said:


> I found a pretty good video giving an overview of the Fenix, Olight and Jetbeam models, hopefully it is helpful.
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BlQ7vzXqz4A




screenshots from that good video

*M30*




*M1X*




*TK40*


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## bluehaley (May 8, 2009)

I tried both Fenix TK40 and Olight M30, I would strong recommend Olight M30 for these two.


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## Ultra-bright (May 8, 2009)

I got Fenix TK40 and Olight M30 and very happy with both. But in term of durability check out the following review noted by the Fenixlight Twitter - 

http://www.bluesheepdog.com/2009/05/05/fenix-tk40-flashlight-review/


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## kz1000s1 (May 9, 2009)

Thanks MrGman for all your work. I've always been curious what the output of the P7 Mags I make is. 

Have you tried repeating you 3 min. test without recharging the batteries and after a cooling off period? I'm wondering how much of the peak output is from a fresh charge and how much is from temperature.

Visually, I've never noticed much difference in output over time.


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## jhc37013 (May 10, 2009)

If size ia a factor get the M30, it fits nicely in your price range. I don't get mine untill monday but a friend let me play around with his M30 and I was very impressed. I did not expect it to be as small as it is.


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## MrGman (May 10, 2009)

kz1000s1 said:


> Thanks MrGman for all your work. I've always been curious what the output of the P7 Mags I make is.
> 
> Have you tried repeating you 3 min. test without recharging the batteries and after a cooling off period? I'm wondering how much of the peak output is from a fresh charge and how much is from temperature.
> 
> Visually, I've never noticed much difference in output over time.


 

Repeating the tests on most of my lights by sticking them in the fridge for 5 minutes to cool down without recharging the batteries has shown the outputs come back up. Its not about battery sag after a 3 minute test its more about the unit getting warm. I don't use a fan or any special cooling I want to show what the sag would normally be. If its a cold winter night its not going to be nearly as bad as on a warm summer night. I am in California and it gets pretty toasty at night in the summer time. Holding the light in hand isn't going to cool it down. So I want to see what I consider real world sag to be. How I duplicate winter time conditions is to simply start with the light in the fridge for 10 minutes. My sweetheart is standing next to me reading this laughing at me right now, about having flashlights in the fridge for "testing" purposes, but that's okay.
All I will say is it works. I am not doing 2 hour run time tests, just the first 3 minutes. G


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## tab665 (May 10, 2009)

jhc37013 said:


> If size ia a factor get the M30, it fits nicely in your price range. I don't get mine untill monday but a friend let me play around with his M30 and I was very impressed. I did not expect it to be as small as it is.


 i got my M30 a few days ago, and i too was impressed by its nimble size. all the close up shots of it made it seem like an ugly clunker thats way over stylized. not the case once you get it in hand.


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## Ryanrpm (May 11, 2009)

Glenn7 said:


> Great graph Ryan :thumbsup::thumbsup: - only problem is you have opened a can of worms - as in all these high powered lights will pop up and will have to be added  :thumbsup:
> you might have to stipulate multi die (as in P7/MC-E) lights only as the list will get too big too quick (but that would mean canning the M2X)
> I say because you will have to add the Lumapower MVP TurboForce P7 and the Lumapower MVP 3xCree also - then I could suggest the WiseLed 1500(1800lumens) and the WiseLed Street(780lumens) - then you have the Wolfeyes Storm/Thunder and superstorm - and I can think of a bunch more if you want :nana: - just a thought 4 u
> 
> edit: do your rules allow optics too - coz if they do then you can go back to a single Cree with optics that will have a higher LUX/throw ie: Tiablo A9 with optics - and I have a DEFT - see a can of worms :kiss:


 

I see where you are going.....and it's not pretty!!

Just so we are all clear, I mainly kept to the 'newer', 'high output', 'reflectored', 'multi-die' lights.....multi-die as in "Quad emitter" I will add in a few others...but I'd like to keep the list to contain lights that are fairly close to each other in terms of those criteria I listed above. That means I will probably end up taking out the M2X, as it is 3-R2's and not a quad emitter.

My plan is to keep this fairly simple and up to date. If any of you have recommendations for lights to be added to the list, I would ask that you provide all the necessary info and *pm* it to me....and I'll update the chart. Agreed??:thumbsup:

Thank you MrGman....I'll update the chart with the info you provided.

I've also edited this post which contains the charts.


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## MrGman (May 11, 2009)

Good job Ryan, I would not pollute this series of charts and data with projection type lights that are of a whole other category. Its not just about "throw" its about having massive amounts of lumen output. Projecting an extremely tight focused image of the die and making it real bright in just a tiny spot just isn't the same as lighting up a good chunk of the woods and everything along the way out 200 yards. 

If all works out tonight I will have tested a new Solarforce L950M light amongst others.


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## Yucca Patrol (May 11, 2009)

Ryanrpm said:


> That means I will probably end up taking out the M2X, as it is 3-R2's and not a quad emitter.



I think it would be a mistake to drop lights such as the M2X, as it and future lights of similar construction are worth including for comparison. The performance of such lights is certainly in the same ballpark as the lights with a single multi-die emitter.


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## applevision (May 11, 2009)

MrGman said:


> Good job Ryan, I would not pollute this series of charts and data with projection type lights that are of a whole other category. Its not just about "throw" its about having massive amounts of lumen output. Projecting an extremely tight focused image of the die and making it real bright in just a tiny spot just isn't the same as lighting up a good chunk of the woods and everything along the way out 200 yards.
> 
> If all works out tonight I will have tested a new Solarforce L950M light amongst others.


+1 agreed... but golly, *MrGman*, you have some true bile towards these lights!  Not that I'm a huge fan of them, but I guess I feel badly dissing lights that many other members of our CPF family love! :grouphug:



Yucca Patrol said:


> I think it would be a mistake to drop lights such as the M2X, as it and future lights of similar construction are worth including for comparison. The performance of such lights is certainly in the same ballpark as the lights with a single multi-die emitter.


+1! Please keep the M2X on this list--it's sort of another approach at a multi-die emitter and I think directly applicable. :twothumbs


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## qip (May 11, 2009)

that would be a big list chart, mags a plenty + small makers like neo w/legion malkoff and EK with all his multi emitter designs that chart will be growing quick in a hurry

did OP decide which to buy 


oh heres my rocket engine multi of past


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## Ryanrpm (May 11, 2009)

Yucca Patrol said:


> I think it would be a mistake to drop lights such as the M2X, as it and future lights of similar construction are worth including for comparison. The performance of such lights is certainly in the same ballpark as the lights with a single multi-die emitter.



Well, consider what my chart is comparing......

Battery config, lumen output, type of emitter, size, weight, type of reflector, driving current, etc......

It's not necessarily showing the performance...but rather the basic specifications that we all are mostly interested in when considering a light to buy. Thinking about it...if I include multi-reflector lights, what to stop every Modded Mag usr from recommending their light? I'd have a chart 30 lights long.

Just trying to keep it simple. And believe me, it did pain me to drop the M2X, because it is such a new light...but I just want to keep it fairly restricted.


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## applevision (May 12, 2009)

Ryanrpm said:


> Well, consider what my chart is comparing......
> 
> Battery config, lumen output, type of emitter, size, weight, type of reflector, driving current, etc......
> 
> ...



Good point, I see what you mean.

I think what surprised and kind of disappointed me was that the P7 and MC-E does _not _blow away these "multi-emitter" setups like I hoped/wished it would. I had pre-ordered the M2 fully expecting the P7 to rock it... then here come the M2Xs and lo; CPF is all over them! I'm trying to wrap my head around it...


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## HKJ (May 12, 2009)

applevision said:


> I think what surprised and kind of disappointed me was that the P7 and MC-E does _not _blow away these "multi-emitter" setups like I hoped/wished it would.



A 3 emitter lights has just about the same power as a MC-E/P7 light. The 3 emitter has better cooling and can be drive a bit harder than the 4 die MC-E/P7 lights.


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## MrGman (May 12, 2009)

Quote:
Originally Posted by *MrGman* 

 
_Good job Ryan, I would not pollute this series of charts and data with projection type lights that are of a whole other category. Its not just about "throw" its about having massive amounts of lumen output. Projecting an extremely tight focused image of the die and making it real bright in just a tiny spot just isn't the same as lighting up a good chunk of the woods and everything along the way out 200 yards. 

If all works out tonight I will have tested a new Solarforce L950M light amongst others._

+1 agreed... but golly, *MrGman*, you have some true bile towards these lights!  Not that I'm a huge fan of them, but I guess I feel badly dissing lights that many other members of our CPF family love! :grouphug:

I would not call it "dissing" to say these aspheric type lights belong in a separate category and really should not be lumped in with the multi emitter mega lights. If some one wants to do a characterization of all the aspherics and super throwers more power to em but an aspheric thrower is not the same as something that puts out 4 times more light, and has to have the battery power to do so, simply because it has a bright hot spot. Other have said not to do the apples and oranges comparison and that is what I am saying, don't put the oranges in the apple cart.

So back on to relevant lights of the P7 persuasion that would fit into this group, I tested the Solarforce L950M improved light with both 3 AW 18650 cells and with just 2 of the same cells. Its peak output was no better than my L900M. Its performance compared to mine was within about 6 lumens, next to nothing as far as change. So I would take the readings already published for the 900 and use them for the 950. There may be some variations sample to sample but my guess is the only real difference in the hardware is the obvious heat sink fins.


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## Ryanrpm (May 12, 2009)

MrGman said:


> So I would take the readings already published for the 900 and use them for the 950. There may be some variations sample to sample but my guess is the only real difference in the hardware is the obvious heat sink fins.


 

MrGman, if you do a 60sec, 120sec, and 180sec test with the L950M, are they the same lumen readings as the L900M? Maybe those heat fins add a bit more cooling so that the heat sag isn't as bad.

Dropping 17% in the first 3 minutes (L900M) = :sick2:


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## MrGman (May 12, 2009)

Ryanrpm said:


> MrGman, if you do a 60sec, 120sec, and 180sec test with the L950M, are they the same lumen readings as the L900M? Maybe those heat fins add a bit more cooling so that the heat sag isn't as bad.
> 
> Dropping 17% in the first 3 minutes (L900M) = :sick2:


 

I did all that with battery configurations using 2 or 3 18650's, didn't bother to mention it because the results were no better. We couldn't get any better performance out of the L950 with all those fins. Not at turn on and not as it warmed up. This light in particular has seen more on time then my L900 model since I only use it to compare to other lights and not really as a utilitarian light. So basically I see no improvement at all in performance on a sample base of 1 each. We topped off the batteries and redid the testing a few times actually. I was hoping it was going to be brighter with 3 of my AW18650's in there but it was not. that is just the way the photons crumble. G


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## Outdoors Fanatic (May 12, 2009)

These Solarforce monsters are truly poorly regulated.


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## MrGman (May 12, 2009)

Outdoors Fanatic said:


> These Solarforce monsters are truly poorly regulated.


 

Actually the output staying the same with 3 batteries or 2 which is a 4V change showed they are rather well regulated power wise. Not just the best in thermal management. Note that I am not using any type of cooling for a 3 minute test unless where I state that I am by putting the units in a fridge for prechilling. However, I was not feeling these things getting toasty on the outside after 3 minutes, could barely tell they were getting warm, and most probably that's not a good thing for something I know is dissipating about 12 watts of power.


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## Ryanrpm (May 12, 2009)

Here is the most recent...up to date chart containing P7/MC-E/Quad Emitter, high output, single reflector lights:








PM me the info guys if you have any other recommendations.


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## jake25 (May 12, 2009)

MrGman said:


> Actually the output staying the same with 3 batteries or 2 which is a 4V change showed they are rather well regulated power wise. Not just the best in thermal management. Note that I am not using any type of cooling for a 3 minute test unless where I state that I am by putting the units in a fridge for prechilling. However, I was not feeling these things getting toasty on the outside after 3 minutes, could barely tell they were getting warm, and most probably that's not a good thing for something I know is dissipating about 12 watts of power.


After 10-15 minutes of continuous on for the 950 I start to feel the heat.


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## MrGman (May 12, 2009)

jake25 said:


> After 10-15 minutes of continuous on for the 950 I start to feel the heat.


 

I believe it so that tells me its not getting good transfer from the chip itself out to the outer case. You can put all the fins in the world on the outside but if its not getting off the board the chip is on efficiently, its already a lost battle. 

Ryan I will get you the actual 3 minute mark numbers tonight if you want to post them.


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## Ryanrpm (May 12, 2009)

If you don't mind.....thanks.


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## jake25 (May 12, 2009)

MrGman said:


> I believe it so that tells me its not getting good transfer from the chip itself out to the outer case. You can put all the fins in the world on the outside but if its not getting off the board the chip is on efficiently, its already a lost battle.
> 
> Ryan I will get you the actual 3 minute mark numbers tonight if you want to post them.


Yea contact might not be great. Or maybe theres so much material it just doesn't come out heh. I know the P7 sits on a copper/brass slug at the least


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## hazna (May 13, 2009)

hmmm... I not so keen for the Eagletac M2 series anymore. The switch is a deal breaker for me; apparently it goes to strobe too easily. 

Interested in the rumoured raptor-3 with a MC-E LED... I might just sit out a bit longer until I find something just right.


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## Yucca Patrol (May 13, 2009)

Ryanrpm said:


> Thinking about it...if I include multi-reflector lights, what to stop every Modded Mag usr from recommending their light? I'd have a chart 30 lights long.
> 
> Just trying to keep it simple. And believe me, it did pain me to drop the M2X, because it is such a new light...but I just want to keep it fairly restricted.



I understand your argument and it is YOUR list, but if you limited the multi-reflector lights to *production off-the shelf* lights that people can buy from typical resellers and omitted custom modified lights, the list would not grow too big too fast. There will certainly be more lights like the M2X, and people looking for a high lumen light should be considering these as well as the multi-die lights.


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## Ryanrpm (May 13, 2009)

Yucca Patrol said:


> I understand your argument and it is YOUR list, but if you limited the multi-reflector lights to *production off-the shelf* lights that people can buy from typical resellers and omitted custom modified lights, the list would not grow too big too fast. There will certainly be more lights like the M2X, and people looking for a high lumen light should be considering these as well as the multi-die lights.




Yes, I like your reasoning there.

But, would I then drop the Legion II? It is not exactly off-the-shelf. I can't place an order and have it arrive 1-2 weeks later. I see what you mean...only using the classification of "production off the shelf" to the multi-reflector.

I suppose I should have the M2X be re-installed, and any other multi-reflector light, provided that they are production off the shelf lights. Does anyone know of any other besides the M2X???

Thanks for your insight there.


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## MrGman (May 13, 2009)

Solarforce L900M_HIGH_______________________________553.7,_180 sec_______,


The Solarforce L950M on High at 3 minutes precisely was 541 lumens. I tried to post this last night but the website was closed for those who don't already know. As I said I did multiple attempts with different batteries/configurations. At turn on the best it would due is match the numbers for the L900M already listed on page 2. This model may have a lot more on time then mine has. It may be some one with a newer unit might have higher numbers. I can only report that which I have been able to test directly. But at least I have no illusions that this is a sample base of 1. G


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## Benson (May 13, 2009)

Ryanrpm said:


> Yes, I like your reasoning there.
> 
> But, would I then drop the Legion II? It is not exactly off-the-shelf. I can't place an order and have it arrive 1-2 weeks later. I see what you mean...only using the classification of "production off the shelf" to the multi-reflector.


Well... maybe not off-the-shelf, but it's certainly a production light. Nothing that was on the list is custom or modded, so I'd think that's a good place to draw the line. AFAIK, there's few production, but non-off-the-shelf, multi-reflectors, so it makes little difference in practice; just draw the line wherever you see fit.



> I suppose I should have the M2X be re-installed, and any other multi-reflector light, provided that they are production off the shelf lights. Does anyone know of any other besides the M2X???


Ultrafire WF-1300L? At least I _think_ that's the right name; DX lists it as "TH-1300L", but their pic says "WF-1300L" on the side of the light, and BJ shows it as "WF-1300L".

Ultrafire
WF-1300L
Emitter: 1300
1A
7x Seoul P4, U2 bin
OP
3x18650
80mm
190mm
795g (and I think that's w/o batts... )
It should be quite a handful of flashlight -- I was saving for this baby before I learned of the L2.


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## TITAN1833 (May 13, 2009)

Benson said:


> Well... maybe not off-the-shelf, but it's certainly a production light. Nothing that was on the list is custom or modded, so I'd think that's a good place to draw the line. AFAIK, there's few production, but non-off-the-shelf, multi-reflectors, so it makes little difference in practice; just draw the line wherever you see fit.


 It's very much like a custom built light IMO as the build is dependant on orders,you can't simply order on line and get it within a couple of weeks in fact you could "as we have seen" be waiting many months before you see it,so in effect it's custom built to order IMHO :twothumbs




[edit]Oh I should point out the first batch were in fact custom built i.e you could choose LED and power options


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## easilyled (May 13, 2009)

Ryanrpm said:


> Yes, I like your reasoning there.
> 
> But, would I then drop the Legion II? It is not exactly off-the-shelf. I can't place an order and have it arrive 1-2 weeks later. I see what you mean...only using the classification of "production off the shelf" to the multi-reflector.
> 
> ...



I think there are some Wolf-Eyes multi-reflector (3) lights like "Storm" for example, if my memory serves me correctly. 

Led-Lenser have a monster-sized 7 Cree light too.


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## TITAN1833 (May 13, 2009)

easilyled said:


> I think there are some Wolf-Eyes multi-reflector (3) lights like "Storm" for example, if my memory serves me correctly.
> 
> Led-Lenser have a monster-sized 7 Cree light too.


Now were talking don't forget then the 1500 lumen wiseled tactical


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## easilyled (May 13, 2009)

MrGman said:


> Actually the output staying the same with 3 batteries or 2 which is a 4V change showed they are rather well regulated power wise. Not just the best in thermal management. Note that I am not using any type of cooling for a 3 minute test unless where I state that I am by putting the units in a fridge for prechilling. However, I was not feeling these things getting toasty on the outside after 3 minutes, could barely tell they were getting warm, and most probably that's not a good thing for something I know is dissipating about 12 watts of power.




This is very interesting. I was comparing the output of my Solarforce L950M to my Olight-M30 by using the famous ceiling bounce
last night.

I think the L950M was slightly higher (at least to begin with).

However I noticed that after a few minutes the head of the M30 really heated up whereas the L950M hardly heated up at all.

I had incorrectly assumed that the L950M didn't heat up as much because it had vastly more metal bulk to dissipate the heat.

However, it is now apparent that the thermal management of the L950M is not very good.

I was wondering when I'd find a weakness in that light!


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## Casebrius (May 14, 2009)

I think we will all agree the most important part of these high power lights is the board. Where do I get an affordable board to drive a multi Die emitter well?


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## bigchelis (May 14, 2009)

Casebrius said:


> I think we will all agree the most important part of these high power lights is the board. Where do I get an affordable board to drive a multi Die emitter well?


 

Also, keep in mind you need cells that can handle high current and the more mAh the better. I think the heatsinking will make them closer to 600 lumens too.


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## eyeeatingfish (May 14, 2009)

im still trying to find a good review of the MRV SK ULTRA


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## Casebrius (May 14, 2009)

bigchelis said:


> Also, keep in mind you need cells that can handle high current and the more mAh the better. I think the heatsinking will make them closer to 600 lumens too.


 I have plenty of 18650's. I'm new to boards - If I sandwich two of these together
http://www.kaidomain.com/ProductDetails.aspx?ProductId=6653
will it make a 2.8A board? Has anyone used these particular boards? I just put one in my Q5 RQ and it seemend to brighten it up some. I haven't tried measuring amps actually pulled though.


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## bigchelis (May 14, 2009)

Casebrius said:


> I have plenty of 18650's. I'm new to boards - If I sandwich two of these together
> http://www.kaidomain.com/ProductDetails.aspx?ProductId=6653
> will it make a 2.8A board? Has anyone used these particular boards? I just put one in my Q5 RQ and it seemend to brighten it up some. I haven't tried measuring amps actually pulled though.


 

From MrGman testing in a 6P size hosts even the IMR 18650 can't deliver. 

EX: Using a Surefire 6P hosts and a P60 P7 direct drive running on a single IMR 18650 the peak lumens as tested by MrGman were 356 out the front. Thats right not even 3A of current made this puppy over 500 lumens.

Now, I gave it to him again this time with even bigger cells. It was a fivemega 3 "C" hosts powered by 3 "C" NiMH Tenergy Cells. It made close to 550 out the front with the same P60 P7 by Nailbender.

The only time the IMR 18650's have made over 500 lumens is with a 1D Mag P7 Direct drive, but it had electrolumens heatsinking which helped it reach a 703 peak lumen. Then I had him test the same P7 bin made by the same builder (nailbender) using the same heatsink,wires, direct drive, ect..... This time using 3 "C" NiMH it made 870 peak lumens, but settled at 750ish. 

Prior to MrGman testing the MC-E and P7 variants I was convinced a single IMR 18650 was all I needed to run 500 plus out the front, but no way Jose. Needless to say forget about the IMR 16340 outperforming the IMR 18650, I don't see how it could happen.


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## Casebrius (May 14, 2009)

bigchelis said:


> From MrGman testing in a 6P size hosts even the IMR 18650 can't deliver.
> 
> EX: Using a Surefire 6P hosts and a P60 P7 direct drive running on a single IMR 18650 the peak lumens as tested by MrGman were 356 out the front. Thats right not even 3A of current made this puppy over 500 lumens.
> 
> ...


So I guess a 2x18650 body is needed for any "large" amount of light!


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## Outdoors Fanatic (May 14, 2009)

Casebrius said:


> So I guess a 2x18650 body is needed for any "large" amount of light!


In addition to that, you'd also need EXCELLENT heatsinking, equally efficient drivers and probably do some resistance fixes on all electrical contacts on the flashlight.


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## Casebrius (May 14, 2009)

Outdoors Fanatic said:


> In addition to that, you'd also need EXCELLENT heatsinking, equally efficient drivers and probably do some resistance fixes on all electrical contacts on the flashlight.


I've hijacked this thread enough so I'll only ask one more question (again), where do I get good relatively affordable drivers?


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## JJay03 (May 14, 2009)

I am also looking for a higher output light 500+ I currently have a 6p and 9p with a m60 and m60wlf but I want more. I have considered a dereelight dbs mce, solarforce l950m, and malkoff m60 mce also but thinking I want a bit more throw why I liked the dereelight . Not sure what the best choice would be. I also thought of a maglite with the malkoff p7.
What is this malkoff triple you guys speak of?


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## bigchelis (May 15, 2009)

JJay03 said:


> I am also looking for a higher output light 500+ I currently have a 6p and 9p with a m60 and m60wlf but I want more. I have considered a dereelight dbs mce, solarforce l950m, and malkoff m60 mce also but thinking I want a bit more throw why I liked the dereelight . Not sure what the best choice would be. I also thought of a maglite with the malkoff p7.
> What is this malkoff triple you guys speak of?


 
The Malkoff Tripple has 3 R2's that make 15W of power. MrGman has one and it did over 600 out the front. It also throws really far, alot farther than most MC-E and P7 lights, but the L900m gives it a good challenge.


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## JJay03 (May 15, 2009)

How much are they and I guess this is something you would have to call Gene about?


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## bigchelis (May 15, 2009)

JJay03 said:


> How much are they and I guess this is something you would have to call Gene about?


 

Gene no longer makes them, not even upon request. Fortunately; you can PM MrGman and ask him if he wants to part with his. His is rated up to 5.5v and is fully regulated. They cost $150~$180 when they were available.

Good luck,
Jose


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## eyeeatingfish (May 16, 2009)

doesnt anyone have the MRV Sk Ultra to compare?


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## jake25 (May 17, 2009)

I just let my L950m Solarforce on for a few minutes, after 4 it was warm to the touch, that tells me that there is pretty good head dissipation.


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## Ryanrpm (May 17, 2009)

jake25 said:


> I just let my L950m Solarforce on for a few minutes, after 4 it was warm to the touch, that tells me that there is pretty good head dissipation.



Hmmm....but don't forget, according to the IS, it dropped 17% in output due to heat sag in the first 3 minutes.

As a simple comparison, the Sunlite 16w, (which Sunlite is known for their excellent heatsinking), dropped 2.5% in the first 6 minutes.


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## jake25 (May 17, 2009)

Ryanrpm said:


> Hmmm....but don't forget, according to the IS, it dropped 17% in output due to heat sag in the first 3 minutes.
> 
> As a simple comparison, the Sunlite 16w, (which Sunlite is known for their excellent heatsinking), dropped 2.5% in the first 6 minutes.


Yea it did make that drop, however I was just trying to say that the thermal path from the LED to the outside is fairly good if not great in that the heat got to my hand within minutes.


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## MrGman (May 17, 2009)

jake25 said:


> I just let my L950m Solarforce on for a few minutes, after 4 it was warm to the touch, that tells me that there is pretty good head dissipation.


 

That type of non scientific testing doesn't tell you much of anything at all. The flashlight is a relatively large thermal mass, but without knowing how much heat is being generated and the how much is getting transferred to the outer casing where you get to touch it, you have no idea if the LED inside is roasting or if the unit is transferring out most of the heat efficiently. You have nothing to really make a direct comparison to in order to know that yours is either transferring really well or not well at all. Watching the total lumens output drop within the first 3 minutes in a nonlinear fashion tells you more. And without a meter to see the numbers change your eyes self adjust and you can't really tell visually at all. I do it all the time and I can't see it, I have to go by the meter. 

In order to do it right, there would have to be a thermocouple as close to the LED as possible directly and then another one on the case, plotting the change in temperature over time from turn on and see how the 2 curves don't track each other. The differential of those 2 readings would be as close to coming to the thermal resistance of the total path as you could get.


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## Rexlion (Jun 13, 2009)

I would really like to see someone post throw numbers (lux @ 1m) for some of these quad-die lights for comparison. I understand why a single die light should throw farther, but with the quads putting out so many lumens they may be throwing pretty well by sheer brute force. I've found plenty of throw figures for Q5 lights and such. However I can't find any solid numbers on the MC-E lights for comparison.


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## applevision (Jun 13, 2009)

I agree with Rexlion.

This thread has gotten a bit off track... but now that the EagleTac lights have been out for a bit (and have been upgraded to version 2!) where do we stand?

MrGMan, I may have missed it, but have you had a chance to check the numbers of the M2C4 and M2XC4 in the sphere?

I'm thinking about getting the M2C4 upgraded edition... what do you think, fellas?


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## bigchelis (Jun 14, 2009)

applevision said:


> I agree with Rexlion.
> 
> This thread has gotten a bit off track... but now that the EagleTac lights have been out for a bit (and have been upgraded to version 2!) where do we stand?
> 
> ...


 

MrGman, has mentioned in his LED Lumen Sticky that they make about 600 out the front, which is awesome but from 2 18650 cells in side by side I expected better. 

IMHO: The P7 or Tri-R2 perform better with NiMH C/D cells. Having said that: I would want to see the M2C4 and M2XC4 tested in MrGmans sphere with an IMR 18650. I bet they would do alot better.:candle:

Someone please send your M2C4 and M2XC4 to MrGman for testing...Please..

Regards,
Jose


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## hazna (Jun 14, 2009)

I know the new eagletac m2/m2x range has had some of the initial faults addressed, but on the whole its given me a negative impression of the eagletac products. 

I am still holding off buying anything yet... interested to see if the rumoured jetbeam raptor 3 comes out. And if it does, how it compares.


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