# What went wrong with Surefire?



## desmondpun (Jun 1, 2012)

I have spent a lot less time in here for the last 6-7 years. Only recently coming back and bought a few new lights. Back in 8-9 years ago, Surefire was almost the only quality flashlight in the market. (plus a few other individuals custom light). I am quite sad to see there are not many new lights coming out from Surefire and the gap between some of the asian manufacturers are becoming so narrow. I start to think the premium that we have to pay for Surefire is getting diffcult to justify. Am I the only one thinking this way?


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## Ezeriel (Jun 1, 2012)

desmondpun said:


> I have spent a lot less time in here for the last 6-7 years. Only recently coming back and bought a few new lights. Back in 8-9 years ago, Surefire was almost the only quality flashlight in the market. (plus a few other individuals custom light). I am quite sad to see there are not many new lights coming out from Surefire and the gap between some of the asian manufacturers are becoming so narrow. I start to think the premium that we have to pay for Surefire is getting diffcult to justify. Am I the only one thinking this way?



When they were the only game in town... they could charge whatever they wanted, and could be successful.

Now, there are at least 20 quality flashlight makers, all using labor that is cheap, and in China's case, much more educated.

Like every American company, they can't compete with free trade.


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## Flashlight Dave (Jun 1, 2012)

I don’t know about you but when I hold a LX2 in my hand and compare it to a other well known brands there is a noticeable difference in construction and quality. Are surefire over priced, well perhaps but I do think there is a quality gap between surefire and many other lights.


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## Solscud007 (Jun 1, 2012)

I just have a problem with the lack of variety. They are sitting on lights that could sell very well. Like a AA version Titan or a brighter Titan given the LED technology. Lights like the Sunwayman V10R Ti has taken over as my main EDC. it does everything I need it to. It is not overly complicated. It is like a mini U2 Ultra in my pocket but brighter and can run on many different batteries with the AA extender.

Surefire just doesnt offer that versatility. Now their weaponlights on the other hand are great. But there are other companies out there that make good pistol lights that i can justify buying a Surefire.


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## Flashlight Dave (Jun 1, 2012)

Solscud007 said:


> I just have a problem with the lack of variety. They are sitting on lights that could sell very well. Like a AA version Titan or a brighter Titan given the LED technology. Lights like the Sunwayman V10R Ti has taken over as my main EDC. it does everything I need it to. It is not overly complicated. It is like a mini U2 Ultra in my pocket but brighter and can run on many different batteries with the AA extender.
> 
> Surefire just doesnt offer that versatility. Now their weaponlights on the other hand are great. But there are other companies out there that make good pistol lights that i can justify buying a Surefire.



I can agree with the versatility issue especially on the AA and AAA options. It seems to me that their focus is still on the tactical military areas.


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## shane45_1911 (Jun 1, 2012)

I don't think it is a case of something going "wrong" with SF per say. More like other companies started doing things "right" recently. For so long, SF was the only game in town in you wanted a light for hard-use. Not so much, anymore... 

Dare I say, they made the word "tactical" one of the most widely used catch-phrases of the 90's. I cannot think of any other flashlight brand that became so iconic because of their incredible self-marketing.


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## bansuri (Jun 1, 2012)

Ezeriel said:


> When they were the only game in town... they could charge whatever they wanted, and could be successful.
> 
> Now, there are at least 20 quality flashlight makers, all using labor that is cheap, and in China's case, much more educated.
> 
> Like every American company, they can't compete with free trade.



I'd love to hear your research methodology for determining that Chinese flashlight manufacturing employees are MUCH more educated than the Surefire employees. This should be interesting. 

Regarding free trade: consumers don't pay for the cheap flashlights, the workers do with their underpaid labor. 
The good news is that you are incorrect in your blanket statement about all US companies, the company I work for has a large number of customers who buy our products because the Chinese equivalent is less reliable.


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## Illumination (Jun 1, 2012)

Ezeriel said:


> Like every American company, they can't compete with free trade.



Flat out wrong; silly overgeneralization. Plenty of American companies compete. It's not easy, of course, but they do. I won't say more here because this is a flashlight forum, not one on trade policy. 

I think Surefire lights are still top notch quality. While I would like them to be faster in updating their LEDs, the overall quality makes up for it. In particular I like their toughness and no gimmick designs. In a SOL situation, would you really prefer the latest and greatest led in a questionable body, or would you like something like a LX2?

That said, I love the idea raised above about a new Titan. How about with a Nichia 219?


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## F250XLT (Jun 1, 2012)

Love SF as a host, but "typically" there tint/beam quality is lacking for the price you pay IMO.


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## CarpentryHero (Jun 1, 2012)

I like Surefires a lot, and I believe (as long as you do your homework) you get what you pay for. Surefire is still at the forefront, and is apparently has patent lawsuits with other manufacturers, whether warranted or not, this makes it difficult for our local companies to stay in the game affordably. 

I don't really care where my products are made as long as they are as reliable as I expected for what I paid, and they cover the warranty offered  my two Lumens about that.


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## jak (Jun 1, 2012)

I wonder if their Lifetime warranty plays into the considerably higher price. What other flashlight companies offer that? (I ask because I don't know.)

Even though I only own 1 Surefire, and none reside on my "must have" list, I would still consider them among the best out there.


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## CarpentryHero (Jun 1, 2012)

Pelican has an excellent warranty too, I think Surefire is the only lifetime warranty that I've heard of too


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## HighlanderNorth (Jun 1, 2012)

Ezeriel said:


> When they were the only game in town... they could charge whatever they wanted, and could be successful.
> 
> Now, there are at least 20 quality flashlight makers, all using labor that is cheap, and in China's case, much more educated.
> 
> Like every American company, they can't compete with free trade.




Sure they can! If you adjust for inflation, they are charging the same or more than they were charging 7-10 years ago, and back then they were making good lights, so whats their problem? 

I went into a Red Wing boot store a couple months ago to see that they are charging between $125 - $259 for Red Wing work boots made in China, and $279 - $359 for boots made in America! Just about 5-7 years ago you could get a good pair of Red Wings for half that or less, and they were made in America. So what these companies are doing, is trying to justify making VULGAR profits off the American people by saying that "we cant compete." Well, they were able to compete just fine a few years ago charging MUCH less money! These few companies are simply using their "made in the USA" label to rip us off, thats all there is to it!

If you were able to make a product in America 7 years ago and make a profit of $30 off each unit you made at that time, which was enough money to make everyone happy, but now you are jacking up your prices so much that you are now making a profit of $90-$120 per unit, then claiming you are being "forced" to do that by Chinese competition, then those claims are complete crap! Thats profiteering plain and simple... The Chinese based companies arent even making that much. PLus, the Red Wing company is "getting over" in another way by charging 30-50% more for a pair of boots made in China than they charged for the same pair made in America just 5-7 years ago. 

Surefire is trying to pull some similar B.S. They are relying on their past reputation, while also relying on their continued gov't and police contracts so they can advertise that they are used by US police and soldiers. Then, they almost completely STOP innovating, and they use cheaper components, as well as outdated or inferior LED's and circuitry, and type II anodizing or plastic, while charging more money than any other company out there. Then they play the victim card by saying "we are forced to do this due to Chinese competition." No you arent, you're still making big profits, but then choosing to keep all that money instead of reinvesting it into truly improved/updated product lines. 

These companies keep getting away with this crap because they know that the majority of the "unenlightened masses" dont know any better, and these people will keep buying from them, even though they are now selling an inferior product, simply because they hear that the US military uses their stuff. (So they are ripping off the US military too!)


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## davyro (Jun 1, 2012)

What sums Surefire up for me is the Titan,its a well built very good EDC light but 70 or 100 lumen is really low compared to there competitors it has poor runtimes as well,the LED is dated & the beam profile is poor
then on top of that the price is staggering.The thing is the Titan could be a fantastic light a new LED a new reflector a little tweek in the technology & add that to a very well built light with a great UI,lifetime warranty
& they just might be able to justify a big price for what could be a very good light.Just my opinion .


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## Ezeriel (Jun 1, 2012)

bansuri said:


> I'd love to hear your research methodology for determining that Chinese flashlight manufacturing employees are MUCH more educated than the Surefire employees. This should be interesting.
> 
> Regarding free trade: consumers don't pay for the cheap flashlights, the workers do with their underpaid labor.
> The good news is that you are incorrect in your blanket statement about all US companies, the company I work for has a large number of customers who buy our products because the Chinese equivalent is less reliable.



I said "labor" as in "labor pool"

Students in Shanghai slaughtered every other country/city when tested this year.. http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/polit...-a-great-learning-culture-20120219-1th5i.html

...and when it comes to getting higher educated workers, you can get a worker in china with a masters degree for pennies-on-the-dollar for what you'd spend for a high school drop-out in the US.

You'll have to forgive me for my blanket statements; as I live in the NY/PA area of the country, I've seen everything from IBM to Ingersoll Rand shut it's doors in the last 30 or so years.. at last count 18 factories within an hours drive of my house have gone over seas. (I now have 5 left)

"American made" is quickly becoming a thing of the past.


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## Jeff S. (Jun 1, 2012)

Free-market socialism is triumphing over imperialistic liberalism. (That's a joke, right?)

I was very excited to finally try a Surefire headlamp (Minimus- I tried two, in fact). I wouldn't pay more than twenty dollars for a Minimus. I wanted to like it because of its form factor, but my Zebralight H31w beat the twice-as-expensive Minimus in every imaginable way. It's not about the money; I'm willing to spend what it takes on a custom headlamp in order to get what I want. As others have stated, yes, part of it is about variety. I like neutral tints, as warm tints are too yellow, while cool tints are too blue. No single light is going to please everybody unless you have different options (tint, beam profile, etc). However, it's not just the variety. Form, function, and quality counts. Both Minimuses had prisms, had beams that were ringy with different colour tones throughout, and, worst of all, the beam directly in front of you was the weakest and worst quality of light. 

I'll always have a special place for Surefire, as I'll always have one for HDS Systems. These two companies started me on my path of flashoholism, ending in thousands of dollars worth of objects that emit light. I used to be wowed by brightness. I used to place heavy emphasis on lumens. Then and now I want toughness, waterproofness, and quality. But what I really care about, after spending so much on flashlights, is their plain usefulness: the UI, the smoothness and quality of the beam, and, most importantly, the tint. Surefire simply isn't marketing or making flashlights for my desires.


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## tobrien (Jun 1, 2012)

yeah SF needs to step it up


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## Lou Minescence (Jun 1, 2012)

I'm waiting for the new Invictus. I may buy it if I can program the control ring to my liking and the price is not obscene. 
I thought about buying the old Invictus but the price was too high @ $695 dollars. Then the retail price dropped 300 dollars. Like I posted before in other threads, how much profit does a company need to make ? With a price drop like that, is Surefire still making money ? That is where the problem is.
I've never bought a Surefire yet. I own a 6P incan that was given to me. I own about 30 China lights. 
I'm going to sleep soon. I expect this thread will be locked when I wake up.


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## angelofwar (Jun 1, 2012)

"No Versatility"? Ever owned a Kroma Mil-Spec? AZ2? C2? M4? E2L-AA? E1B? There really isn't a job that can't be done with a SF. They don't make a single AA light for a reason. Yeah, people like them and use them, but they see no logic in a low capacity 1.5 volt light. There lights are purpose built. When they did build a AA light, they built one that was very versatile...can take Lithium, Alkaline, or RC AA's. Having owned nearly every SF model, I can say that they definitely have a versatile line-up.


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## bstrickler (Jun 1, 2012)

jak said:


> I wonder if their Lifetime warranty plays into the considerably higher price. What other flashlight companies offer that? (I ask because I don't know.)
> 
> Even though I only own 1 Surefire, and none reside on my "must have" list, I would still consider them among the best out there.



Thats exactly how I look at it. you pay for the warranty. I sent in my XM00 tailcap about 6 weeks ago, because part of it was broken, resulting in a potential reliability issue in the future, and guess what they did... They sent me a brand new one. I dont know of any other company that would do that.

I am now a proud owner of a Z2, 6P, U2, M951, and E1e. If I need a light I know will work no matter what, I will grab my Surefire. At work, my U2 gets dropped a LOT, and it still hasnt failed me yet. A normal light would have probably broken by now, whether it be the circuit, or the head/tailcap.

~Brian


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## Bullzeyebill (Jun 1, 2012)

Lou Minescence said:


> I'm going to sleep soon. I expect this thread will be locked when I wake up.



It will not be locked if members respond in an articulate manner, observe Rule 4, and follow CPF's etiquette protocol, which includes assisting CPF be a friendly place to post. Not really that hard.

Bill


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## Z-Tab (Jun 1, 2012)

While there are some companies that have definitely surpassed Surefire in output, I don't think that Surefire has been left behind when you look at the full scope of their offerings. There are some great alternatives, but every flashlight that's being offered by any company requires some sort of trade off. If you want a perfect flashlight, you're gonna have to drop $1000 and buy a Spy 007.

I've also never paid full MSRP for a Surefire, despite having owned over a dozen of them, so I don't really take the pricing arguments very seriously.


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## fyrstormer (Jun 1, 2012)

Ezeriel said:


> When they were the only game in town... they could charge whatever they wanted, and could be successful.
> 
> Now, there are at least 20 quality flashlight makers, all using labor that is cheap, and in China's case, much more educated.
> 
> Like every American company, they can't compete with free trade.


Trading with China isn't free trade. They intentionally repress the value of their currency to make their exports more affordable. What the heck they're accomplishing in the long run by doing that, other than keeping their citizens employed, I don't know.


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## fyrstormer (Jun 1, 2012)

Illumination said:


> I think Surefire lights are still top notch quality. While I would like them to be faster in updating their LEDs, the overall quality makes up for it. In particular I like their toughness and no gimmick designs. In a SOL situation, would you really prefer the latest and greatest led in a questionable body, or would you like something like a LX2?


What *I* would like is for Surefire to realize that they do a great job of making modular flashlights, but their electronics leave much to be desired, and they should focus on making modular flashlights -- i.e., what they were doing before they started replacing their entire line with non-serviceable LED lights. Given the choice between buying a non-serviceable flashlight with a soft aluminum body and outdated electronics or a non-serviceable flashlight with a hard titanium body and brand-new electronics, I'll opt for the latter.

Surefire makes good hosts that other people can put great electronics into. That's what they should focus on continuing to do.


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## fyrstormer (Jun 1, 2012)

Ezeriel said:


> "American made" is quickly becoming a thing of the past.


No it isn't, it's just becoming more high-tech. Products that take highly-skilled labor are still best made in the USA or Europe. When companies tried to outsource software programming to Asian companies in the 2000's, they discovered that the quality was crap compared to what American and European programmers can produce. Now they're bringing those jobs back. There has been no recession in the software industry, only a modest slowdown in growth.


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## Bullzeyebill (Jun 2, 2012)

Moving this to the Cafe. Keep it civil folks.

Bill


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## fyrstormer (Jun 2, 2012)

angelofwar said:


> They don't make a single AA light for a reason. Yeah, people like them and use them, but they see no logic in a low capacity 1.5 volt light.


Do you realize what you're saying here? You're saying Surefire knows what their customers need better than their customers do. That's no way to run a business. If they're going to pull that trick, they'd better be right; the continued popularity of AA lights despite all of Surefire's CR123-powered offerings suggests that they're wrong.


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## Divine_Madcat (Jun 2, 2012)

angelofwar said:


> "No Versatility"? Ever owned a Kroma Mil-Spec? AZ2? C2? M4? E2L-AA? E1B? There really isn't a job that can't be done with a SF.


How is that unique to SF? I can think of a number of Mfg's that have the "job that can't be done" covered..



angelofwar said:


> They don't make a single AA light for a reason. Yeah, people like them and use them, but they see no logic in a low capacity 1.5 volt light.


This (flawed) logic sounds alot like Apple's; people don't need Flash because we say you don't need flash. Well, sure, Apple (just like SF) did well anyway, but they left a huge gap that competitors filled (and are filling more by the day). The fact is, the market DOES want quality, single AAA and AA lights. I see TONS of logic in having a light that doesn't rely on a battery that is more dangerous and hard to find in the field (not to mention, a battery i can easily charge no matter where I am, with my solar charger).



angelofwar said:


> There lights are purpose built. When they did build a AA light, they built one that was very versatile...can take Lithium, Alkaline, or RC AA's. Having owned nearly every SF model, I can say that they definitely have a versatile line-up.


I must be missing something here... every AA light can take Li, Alk, or Ni-MH; that's not a feature.....

As it is, i remember years ago, really wishing I could have something like an SF. Then other makers came along, and showed me that they are nothing special, and all they had going for them was price. Makers like Fenix, 4Sevens, etc have made amazing lights, with better output, features, and battery choices. As it is, I wouldn't trade my TK15 for an equal SF light; right out of the box, it supports CR123 or 18650, with no silly mods needed. It is a durable, weapon mounted light, that i trust to carry everyday. Can't see SF adding anything to that.


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## angelofwar (Jun 2, 2012)

Divine_Madcat said:


> How is that unique to SF? I can think of a number of Mfg's that have the "job that can't be done" covered..
> 
> 
> This (flawed) logic sounds alot like Apple's; people don't need Flash because we say you don't need flash. Well, sure, Apple (just like SF) did well anyway, but they left a huge gap that competitors filled (and are filling more by the day). The fact is, the market DOES want quality, single AAA and AA lights. I see TONS of logic in having a light that doesn't rely on a battery that is more dangerous and hard to find in the field (not to mention, a battery i can easily charge no matter where I am, with my solar charger).
> ...



Negative...a lot of store bought AA lights can't take lithium AA's...nor do a lot of store bought AA lights function well, if at all, on the lower voltage of RC AA's. The rest of your statement is your opinion, which you are entitled too...as is your "opinion" that my logic is flawed. I've given alot of other mfg's a "chance"...and most of them have failed. 53 Surefires, zero "failures". Can't beat that.


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## ElectronGuru (Jun 2, 2012)

fyrstormer said:


> Trading with China isn't free trade. They intentionally repress the value of their currency to make their exports more affordable. What the heck they're accomplishing in the long run by doing that, other than keeping their citizens employed, I don't know.



It's called dependency, and they're creating it enmasse. The US used to employ legions of tool and die makers. Generations of expertise has dried up. If a large manufacturing company wanted to move back, they would need to train for these skills, factory wide. And the longer we go, the bigger an investment in training such a move would require. 

China' s happy being the worlds factory. The only real question is, is there a limit to how much of our currency they can or will buy, sustaining the value subsidy.


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## Divine_Madcat (Jun 2, 2012)

angelofwar said:


> Negative...a lot of store bought AA lights can't take lithium AA's...nor do a lot of store bought AA lights function well, if at all, on the lower voltage of RC AA's. The rest of your statement is your opinion, which you are entitled too...as is your "opinion" that my logic is flawed. I've given alot of other mfg's a "chance"...and most of them have failed. 53 Surefires, zero "failures". Can't beat that.



Alot? Like.....?

Again, i may be missing something, but the nominal voltage for a L91 Energizer is 1.5, same as a Alk AA. I have seen some Li have a terminal voltage up at 1.6v, but i have sen the same from fresh Alk. But lets say that L91's really have too high a voltage; ill give you that part, but the second part of your statement doesn't hold water.. An Alks voltage drops faster than a good (Eneloop) Ni-MH, so while a regular might start out better, the NiMH should outperform a regular battery in the bulk of its usage..

But more to the topic.. I have certainly read about failures from the Chinese mfgs, but i have seen a fair amount of SF problems too (switches in particular). Assuming that your use isn't life-critical, that lifetime warranty is nice, but is meaningless against a failure in the field, which can happen to ANY device...


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## Imon (Jun 2, 2012)

Like AOW has said in this thread and I have said on many occasions in other threads many if not most of Surefires products are_ purpose built.
_There is room in this world for both versatile lights, like the Quark, and a more simplistic light, such as the SF 6P. Sometimes simplicity is better - I find that when I need a chore done around the house the first light I always grab is my 6P instead of my Quark. Sure the strobe, SOS, and beacon modes add versatility but is it really that useful? In fact, it can be downright annoying to cycle through to get to moonlight or low or medium ...and so on.
It's important to recognize that not every flashlight company must cater to our desires.
REMEMBER there are other people out there who are NOT flashaholics but who still depend on flashlights to execute their job properly. For non-flashaholics a light must be easy to operate.
Now the criticism about SF pricing I can empathize with. I does get a bit ridiculous sometimes but as Publilius Syrus said "Anything is worth what its purchaser will pay for it."


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## angelofwar (Jun 2, 2012)

Divine_Madcat said:


> Alot? Like.....?
> 
> Again, i may be missing something, but the nominal voltage for a L91 Energizer is 1.5, same as a Alk AA. I have seen some Li have a terminal voltage up at 1.6v, but i have sen the same from fresh Alk. But lets say that L91's really have too high a voltage; ill give you that part, but the second part of your statement doesn't hold water.. An Alks voltage drops faster than a good (Eneloop) Ni-MH, so while a regular might start out better, the NiMH should outperform a regular battery in the bulk of its usage..
> 
> But more to the topic.. I have certainly read about failures from the Chinese mfgs, but i have seen a fair amount of SF problems too (switches in particular). Assuming that your use isn't life-critical, that lifetime warranty is nice, but is meaningless against a failure in the field, which can happen to ANY device...



My L91's measure in at 1.85-1.87 volts brand new...*anybody else???* I learnt this the hard way...I'm guessing that what's ruined my Inova X1's...and what ruined my old(er) Energizer single AA LED light. Or maybe these lights just weren't built like my Surefires, which backs up my other statement. I'll add this; they just work.


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## HighlanderNorth (Jun 2, 2012)

Jeff S. said:


> Free-market socialism is triumphing over imperialistic liberalism. (That's a joke, right?)
> 
> I was very excited to finally try a Surefire headlamp (Minimus- I tried two, in fact). I wouldn't pay more than twenty dollars for a Minimus. I wanted to like it because of its form factor, but my Zebralight H31w beat the twice-as-expensive Minimus in every imaginable way. It's not about the money; I'm willing to spend what it takes on a custom headlamp in order to get what I want. As others have stated, yes, part of it is about variety. I like neutral tints, as warm tints are too yellow, while cool tints are too blue. No single light is going to please everybody unless you have different options (tint, beam profile, etc). However, it's not just the variety. Form, function, and quality counts. Both Minimuses had prisms, had beams that were ringy with different colour tones throughout, and, worst of all, the beam directly in front of you was the weakest and worst quality of light.
> 
> I'll always have a special place for Surefire, as I'll always have one for HDS Systems. These two companies started me on my path of flashoholism, ending in thousands of dollars worth of objects that emit light. I used to be wowed by brightness. I used to place heavy emphasis on lumens. Then and now I want toughness, waterproofness, and quality. But what I really care about, after spending so much on flashlights, is their plain usefulness: the UI, the smoothness and quality of the beam, and, most importantly, the tint. Surefire simply isn't marketing or making flashlights for my desires.



Your first comment is actually somewhat correct, joke or not! The Chinese are now a semi-free market capitalistic, socialist society, and we are becoming a liberalized, over regulated, over taxed(except for companies like GE) semi-democratic society. Which side is winning at this new game? Not us...

Although I dont own an HDS light, I think they are probably still doing better than SF at this point. They could 'up' their lumen output a little bit, but in most other aspects, their lights seem to be top notch. I cant say that about most SF products.


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## fyrstormer (Jun 2, 2012)

I have never seen _any_ device, including a flashlight, malfunction due to using a different kind of 1.x-volt AA battery in it. Yes, devices that don't have voltage regulators struggle with the rather wide range of voltages available in the AA format, but no flashlight worth buying lacks a voltage regulator these days, and any old flashlight that lacks a voltage regulator could have one added.


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## LostCove NC (Jun 2, 2012)

We, as flashaholics, demand perfection from our lights. As an example, there are many automobile publications out there whose sole function is to critique and dissect every new vehicle. When shopping for a vehicle, we spend countless hours reading comparative reviews and nitpicking every potential issue. I don't care how reliable a car is, if it makes half the horsepower and costs 4x the competition, I'm not going to buy it. Vehicles are held to the highest of standards, and I believe flashlights should be too. I think it is very fair to question certain shortcomings that Surefire has, and not just give them a free pass because "there's people other than flashaholics out there". Everyone--military, police, flashaholic or not--would benefit from neutral/HiCri, for example. Better color rendition, reduce eye fatigue in the field, etc. In this information age, we hold every manufacturer to a higher standard, because we have so many choices. By demanding a better product, we eventually bring about that change in the market. Unfortunately, Surefire seems rather unwilling to update its products at the same pace as everyone else. But we can only hope...


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## Bullzeyebill (Jun 2, 2012)

Speaking as a CPF member, I tend to buy a flashlight based on research on my part. If I like a SF flashlight then I will buy it, if I do not like a SF flashlight I won't buy it. Not too complicated. SF doesn't go wrong with me, or right with me, just because they are SF. What really bores me are threads such as this, implying that SF has gone wrong. This implication could be courted about any flashlight manufacturer out there, for example, Streamlight, Inova, Fenix, etc. JMT2C's. 

Oh, and by the way keeping some of the SF threads on track, and civil can be a real PIA for a moderator.

Bill


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## Monocrom (Jun 3, 2012)

desmondpun said:


> . . . I start to think the premium that we have to pay for Surefire is getting difficult to justify. Am I the only one thinking this way?



I want bomb-proof reliability and durability from some of my lights. Those cost a premium. High output at a low price is something that is extremely easy to pull off in the flashlight industry. I know what I want from some of my lights, so I pay a premium for it.

Ironically, one of my other favorite brands is Fenix. I don't get that extreme degree of durability. Reliability is quite good though. Still, not quite as good as SureFire. But Fenix has some nice offerings worth getting. LD01 is a fantastic keychain light that is far more durable than any other made by an Asian brand. And, SureFire has no single-AAA lights. LD05 is an excellent penlight. Quite durable. Once again, SureFire has no comparable offering. Fenix prices have also gone up a bit. 

Basically, if you want very very good - excellent durability without lugging around a brick; well that's not an easy trick for the industry to pull off. Same thing goes for reliability. When I need a light to work no matter what, I reach for one of my SureFires. I've been let down by other lights in the past. Including by one that claimed to be a SureFire competitor and had the price-tag to match. Turns out, it ONLY could match my SureFires in terms of price. (And all this is coming from someone whom other regulars will tell you is probably SureFire's biggest critic on these boards.)


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## fyrstormer (Jun 3, 2012)

LostCove NC said:


> Everyone--military, police, flashaholic or not--would benefit from neutral/HiCri, for example. Better color rendition, reduce eye fatigue in the field, etc. In this information age, we hold every manufacturer to a higher standard, because we have so many choices.


And that is precisely why large corporations have been working steadily over the past few decades to try to reduce the number of choices people have. Competition sucks for the competitors.


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## bstrickler (Jun 4, 2012)

LostCove NC said:


> Everyone--military, police, flashaholic or not--would benefit from neutral/HiCri, for example. Better color rendition, reduce eye fatigue in the field, etc. In this information age, we hold every manufacturer to a higher standard, because we have so many choices. By demanding a better product, we eventually bring about that change in the market. Unfortunately, Surefire seems rather unwilling to update its products at the same pace as everyone else. But we can only hope...



Sorry to go OT, but I have to correct this.

Blanket statements like that bug me, because they're not true. Not everyone benefits from neutral/HCRI lights.

For scenarios like that, I would hate a neutral/high CRI light, because it helps camouflage blend in. I would want something that destroys the effectiveness of camouflage, so I have an easier time distinguishing things (reducing eye fatigue).

I may be an exception, though, due to being color deficient. 5,500-6,000K is my preference for walking around in the desert, so I don't accidentally step on a snake, or miss seeing another potentially dangerous animal.

I actually got rid of a HCRI light I had, because it caused everything to blend together for me, making me effectively blind to everything. Things may have changed since then, though, but until I get to test out the Nichia 219's, I won't bother with a high CRI light. My 5000k SF U2 is just fine for everything (and I would actually want another one, due to its usefullness).


I personally think they should have kept the U2, and just updated it with an XM-L, or change the head, and use an XP-G with optics, because it's a perfect light, IMHO. 6 levels of light at the twist of a dial, runs off 2 CR123, or RCR123's, and has a great spot, with plenty of spill. What more can you ask for? Maybe make a U3, that's powered by 3 CR123's, and can also run off 2 17500's?


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## Chauncey Gardiner (Jun 4, 2012)

bstrickler said:


> Not everyone benefits from neutral/HCRI lights.
> 
> For scenarios like that, I would hate a neutral/high CRI light, because it helps camouflage blend in. I would want something that destroys the effectiveness of camouflage, so I have an easier time distinguishing things (reducing eye fatigue).
> 
> I may be an exception, though, due to being color deficient. 5,500-6,000K is my preference for walking around in the desert, so I don't accidentally step on a snake, or miss seeing another potentially dangerous animal.



Excellent point!

~ Chance


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## fyrstormer (Jun 4, 2012)

bstrickler said:


> For scenarios like that, I would hate a neutral/high CRI light, because it helps camouflage blend in. I would want something that destroys the effectiveness of camouflage, so I have an easier time distinguishing things (reducing eye fatigue).


Military-grade camouflage uses ink that is engineered to respond to different colors of light the same way natural materials do. White fabric is strictly forbidden because UV lights will make it glow like a beacon. That's why Forward-Looking-Far-Infrared is used in combination with near-infrared night vision goggles to find enemies hiding in the woods, because it's nearly impossible to hide the 100-degree body heat coming out of a person's eyes.



bstrickler said:


> I may be an exception, though, due to being color deficient. 5,500-6,000K is my preference for walking around in the desert, so I don't accidentally step on a snake, or miss seeing another potentially dangerous animal.


Hi-CRI is available in that range. I believe McGizmo's Hi-CRI Nichia emitters work in that range.


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## flashy bazook (Oct 7, 2012)

Very interesting thread here, glad I found it (I have been busy and not able to follow developments as much recently).

One thing I think that gets overlooked is competition between divisions inside a company that has become large and successful.

What this often means is that the older and profitable products tend to dominate inside the company than newer and more innovative products.

So for SF, which is a large and successful company with a long history by now, the expensive, standardized products oriented to military and LEO markets (i.e., where those who chose the products don't use their own personal funds!) are dominant.

Smaller markets, such as retail and individual purchases, served by the "consumer" division, are viewed as "add ons" or derivative markets. If they come up with something so good that it could threaten the established big market, they would tend to be suppressed by the other division which, let us not forget, over the years will have supplied the top managers for the whole company and will have the power within the company. This story is not SF specific, it is repeated over and over in history.

Regarding the actual products, I think SF chose a path not very good for most retail customers when they abolished the inter-operability and compatibility of their products in favor of self-contained, plasticized, glued-together, products. You can almost "hear" the thoughts of the big established division managers: we are losing sales to these custom makers, let's lock them out at the manufacturing level by producing locked-together products that cannot be tampered with. Our standard markets (military plus LEO's) will have to follow us whatever we do, and that's how we continue being successful.

Now, let's again not only talk of SF, Fenix has also been going this way with more plasticized and self-contained products.

Personally, as I have seen the options available to me change, I have found myself liking more the custom, SF-compatible (Surefire "lego" so-called) products, plus the Peak products, because they continue to innovate and use the latest and greatest technological advances, and they pay attention to being compatible with each other or older products.

Now, this is not actually a way to get "cheap" products! Such products can cost quite a lot at least initially. Over time, though, you can just get a new drop-in and plug it into your existing setup, and have access to the latest tech without having to buy a whole new light. Also, you can save money by being able to use just the type of battery, expecially rechargeable types, you want. This can add up to a lot of savings over time.

Finally, one last thought: why so much movement towards plastic products? I guess the price of metals may have been coming up. Or also the manufacturing costs, which have gone up even in China. Custom makers continue to produce metal lights, and if you are willing to pay their cost you can continue to access their wonderful products.


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## sidecross (Oct 7, 2012)

All my previous flashlights were Surefire, but since I have been using Eagletac G25C2, Eagletac C25C2 'Clicky' and the Nitecore TM11 I doubt that I will be buying Surefire lights in the future.

The world has changed, with computer CAD software a small enterprise can now compete with the more established manufactuer.

It is happening with flashlights and wrist watches too. 

Time will tell what happens next.


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## Monocrom (Oct 7, 2012)

sidecross said:


> All my previous flashlights were Surefire, but since I have been using Eagletac G25C2, Eagletac C25C2 'Clicky' and the Nitecore TM11 I doubt that I will be buying Surefire lights in the future.
> 
> The world has changed, with computer CAD software a small enterprise can now compete with the more established manufactuer.
> 
> ...



As a watch enthusiast, I'm afraid I can't agree. The most successful micro-brand out there is MKII. While things might change down the road, MKII produces nothing but high quality homages of classic, and very popular, designs from the past. Bill Yao has been very successful in his efforts. 

As for Eagletac, clearly the brand offers what you want in a flashlight. For me, and for others, that's just not the case. From what I've seen Eagletac can't compete with Fenix in terms of durability or reliability.


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## ElectronGuru (Oct 7, 2012)

flashy bazook said:


> Smaller markets, such as retail and individual purchases, served by the "consumer" division, are viewed as "add ons" or derivative markets. If they come up with something so good that it could threaten the established big market, they would tend to be suppressed by the other division which, let us not forget, over the years will have supplied the top managers for the whole company and will have the power within the company. This story is not SF specific, it is repeated over and over in history.



Wow, great insights. I shutter to think what you've been through to be able to see this.


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## dudemar (Oct 8, 2012)

desmondpun: You're not alone. I got bored with SFs a long time ago. Eventually I discovered other flashlights available for a fraction of the price, offered more functionality than SFs, had better build quality and had the same lifetime warranty.


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## Kestrel (Oct 8, 2012)

dudemar said:


> [...] Eventually I discovered other flashlights available for a fraction of the price, offered more functionality than SFs, had better build quality and had the same lifetime warranty.


Yeah, but do they light up like a prison yard during an escape?


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## Chauncey Gardiner (Oct 8, 2012)

.......and, are they ridiculously nice? If so, perhaps you could drop a few names. 

~ Chance


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## Joe Talmadge (Oct 9, 2012)

I've always admired Surefire immensely, but I can tell you the exact day they became irrelevant to me: it was the day they dropped their distributors and became much more aggressive in enforcing prices. Up until then, dealers were offering some really nice-sized discounts, and although I thought even with those discounts the premium was hefty, I often paid it. But when prices went up on many models 50%+ overnight, I stopped buying SFs completely, and have never bought another. I still buy aftermarket lego parts for the ones I do have, the bodies are still super high quality and there are some great 3rd party heads for them. And these days, aside from prices for many models (acknowledging there's a basic lower-priced line), there are too many features that have left them behind -- good prices for decent quality lights that have better interfaces for EDC, great tactical style interface, incredible quality, ability to run ICR or IMR li ion or primaries, etc.


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## dudemar (Oct 9, 2012)

Kestrel said:


> Yeah, but do they light up like a prison yard during an escape?



Not quite as good as lighting up a crackhouse to catch the junkies before they swallow their merchandise.

You started it.



Chauncey Gardiner said:


> .......and, are they ridiculously nice? If so, perhaps you could drop a few names.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



They aren't quite f1sh lights, but look around on CPF. They're out there!  Elzetta, Polarion, Peak, Pila, HDS, Heliotek, just to name a few. Mag is getting back in the game with its XL series.


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## Grizzman (Oct 9, 2012)

dudemar said:


> Eventually I discovered other flashlights available for a fraction of the price, offered more functionality than SFs, had better build quality and had the same lifetime warranty.






dudemar said:


> They aren't quite f1sh lights, but look around on CPF. They're out there!  Elzetta, Polarion, Peak, Pila, HDS, Heliotek, just to name a few. Mag is getting back in the game with its XL series.



I'm still waiting for your list of inexpensive, superior lights. 

Elzetta's are very very nice, but cost as much as or more than Surefire (and are limited production). The only lights Polarion seems to make are search lights, so hardly comparable. Peak offers limited production small EDC lights, so again.....hardly comparable. Pila may make lights, but I don't recall ever reading them mentioned here, except in this one thread. HDS lights are highly regarded, but a long way from cheap, and barely produced, especially now. Heliotek?? Mag lights are of decently high quality, for reasonable cost, but they don't compete very well against Surefire in the the tactical market where Surefire puts most of its effort.

Grizz


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## Monocrom (Oct 9, 2012)

Overall, Maglite is decent quality at best. (Compared to both American as well as Chinese lights.)


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## HighlanderNorth (Oct 9, 2012)

bansuri said:


> I'd love to hear your research methodology for determining that Chinese flashlight manufacturing employees are MUCH more educated than the Surefire employees. This should be interesting.
> 
> Regarding free trade: consumers don't pay for the cheap flashlights, the workers do with their underpaid labor.
> The good news is that you are incorrect in your blanket statement about all US companies, the company I work for has a large number of customers who buy our products because the Chinese equivalent is less reliable.




Thats certainly true in many cases, maybe most, but when you compare a $200 Surefire light with a $100 Chinese light made by one of 20-30 different companies, the Chinese light will probably have a better LED, better UI and more advanced circuitry, equal or better anodizing, equal or better quality materials, etc.

In fact, you can compare some $130 Chinese lights to some $350 Surefire lights, and the SF light for $350 isnt any better than the $130 Chinese light.

I see SF as an example of an American company that has chosen to use its "made in America" status as an excuse to charge more while not innovating, while sticking with old, outdated technology. I dont see any legit excuse for charging so much more for an inferior light.


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## HighlanderNorth (Oct 9, 2012)

Grizzman said:


> I'm still waiting for your list of inexpensive, superior lights.
> 
> Elzetta's are very very nice, but cost as much as or more than Surefire (and are limited production). The only lights Polarion seems to make are search lights, so hardly comparable. Peak offers limited production small EDC lights, so again.....hardly comparable. Pila may make lights, but I don't recall ever reading them mentioned here, except in this one thread. HDS lights are highly regarded, but a long way from cheap, and barely produced, especially now. Heliotek?? Mag lights are of decently high quality, for reasonable cost, but they don't compete very well against Surefire in the the tactical market where Surefire puts most of its effort.
> 
> Grizz





You havent been here long, so its understandable that you havent had time to read up on many of the Chinese lights, or to compare specs, etc. I'll tell you that my Eagletac G25C2($105 minus 10% sale equals $95) is better than anything SF makes for probably 2-3 times the price. My Fenix TK-41($118 after 10% off) cant be touched by any SF light for less than 2-3 times the price. Same with my Sunwayman T20CS, my Thrunite TN-30, my Jetbeam BC-10, PC-10, PA-10, my Eagletac D25C Ti, my Zebralight SC600, etc.

Believe me, I'd much rather buy American, but I refuse to be ripped off by anyone, whether they are in America or wherever, and I wont buy an inferior light if there's a better one out there for less money!

BTW, there are great American lights for reasonable prices considering the technology, toughness, etc, like the HDS lights, the Prometheus lights, etc.


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## HighlanderNorth (Oct 9, 2012)

HighlanderNorth said:


> You havent been here long, so its understandable that you havent had time to read up on many of the Chinese lights, or to compare specs, etc. I'll tell you that my Eagletac G25C2($105 minus 10% sale equals $95) is better than anything Eagletac makes for probably 2-3 times the price. My Fenix TK-41($118 after 10% off) cant be touched by any SF light for less than 2-3 times the price. Same with my Sunwayman T20CS, my Thrunite TN-30, my Jetbeam BC-10, PC-10, PA-10, my Eagletac D25C Ti, my Zebralight SC600, etc.
> 
> Believe me, I'd much rather buy American, but I refuse to be ripped off by anyone, whether they are in America or wherever, and I wont buy an inferior light if there's a better one out there for less money!
> 
> BTW, there are great American lights for reasonable prices considering the technology, toughness, etc, like the HDS lights, the Prometheus lights, etc.



But for a tactical EDC light, I'd bet the Eagletac G25C2 is as good as anything SF has ever made, and brighter, with better efficiency..


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## nbp (Oct 9, 2012)

I dunno..I would say lights of equivalent or better quality for significantly lower prices are few and far between. 

Tossing one of my G2Ls off a 60 foot tower onto a concrete pad and then picking it up and turning it back on pretty much cemented my belief that SFs are very high quality. Would I like them cheaper? Of course. But you can find good deals if you look around that make them good buys IMO.

And I have been here for nearly 60 months.


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## HighlanderNorth (Oct 9, 2012)

nbp said:


> I dunno..I would say lights of equivalent or better quality for significantly lower prices are few and far between.
> 
> Tossing one of my G2Ls off a 60 foot tower onto a concrete pad and then picking it up and turning it back on pretty much cemented my belief that SFs are very high quality. Would I like them cheaper? Of course. But you can find good deals if you look around that make them good buys IMO.
> 
> And I have been here for nearly 60 months.





Well then I'll start out with the opposite statement I made with the other poster. I see you've been here for a long time, and since I havent been here as long, you have no doubt done more reading and read more about specs than I have, and probably owned more LED lights for longer, I wont argue the point. 

I just think that for the price you pay you should maybe get more for your money. I have checked out a few SF lights in the $100-$200 range, and they didnt appear to be any thicker, tougher than the Chinese lights I own. I havent dropped any of mione off 60 foot buildings, but I have accidentally slung my BC-10 out of my pocket repeatedly when its lanyard got hung up with my keys, and it got tossed up into the air, only to hit face first on pavement from 6-10 feet in the air, and didnt miss a beat in performance.

I just realized that many people initialize the Surefire name by posting SF instead, and I do it to, but SF can also mean Solarforce too..... I dont know that I'd comapre my Solarforce light up there with Surefire lights, but I could be wrong.


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## Kestrel (Oct 9, 2012)

I think we're covering well-worn ground by now, I'm reading the same things that I've read in many many threads over the past 4-5 years folks ...


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## Grizzman (Oct 9, 2012)

I'm not backing Surefire at all......just questioning the provided list of mostly limited production non-tactical lights. I use 6Ps and 9Ps as hosts, and run a used M951 on a rifle, with a Malkoff drop-in. The only stock Surefires I've got, have their TIR optic, which makes them unique.

I think Surefire's decision to go with sealed non-LEGOable designs was a serious mistake.

I had a Sunwayman V20C for a few months, and was very impressed with the quality. I considered it fully equal to Surefire in the machining and anodizing departments, but gave it away because I ended up not liking the control ring and ringy beam.

I've currently got an H502D and think it's an awesome headlight, and also up to Surefire's standard, with a far superior UI. 

I've read enough positive information on Eagletac, Fenix, and Jetbeam to consider any of their lights for a future purchase if they fit my requirements. 

I may have a new account, but I've been coming here for research purposes for quite a few years....finally decided to contribute some.


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## dudemar (Oct 9, 2012)

My post magically disappeared so I guess I'll elaborate my points:



Grizzman said:


> I'm still waiting for your list of inexpensive, superior lights.



It's there. Didn't you see it? 



Grizzman said:


> Elzetta's are very very nice, but cost as much as or more than Surefire (and are limited production).



It's an alternative to SF.



Grizzman said:


> The only lights Polarion seems to make are search lights, so hardly comparable.



Last time I checked SF doesn't make the Beast I or II anymore. Short of the Hellfire, SF is out of the HID market.



Grizzman said:


> Peak offers limited production small EDC lights, so again.....hardly comparable.



I didn't know a SST-90 or XM-L powered light is a small EDC. Last time I checked SF doesn't make anything with an SST-90.



Grizzman said:


> Pila may make lights, but I don't recall ever reading them mentioned here, except in this one thread.



I like to joke Pilas don't need warranties because they're indestructible. My clickie TC for my GL3 just pooped out after 5 years of everyday use. I can drop in nearly any D26 aftermarket LA. Can't say that about newer SFs. If you want to know more about Pilas, that search function bar at the top of this page helps a lot.



Grizzman said:


> HDS lights are highly regarded, but a long way from cheap, and barely produced, especially now.



Again, an alternative to SF. It does more than any SF of comparable size.



Grizzman said:


> Heliotek??



Yes, Heliotek. It can float in water, depth rated to 150'+, has 350'+ throw @ a mere 60 lumens, can tailstand, a plug on the battery case that safely releases gases in the unlikely event the batteries vent, etc, etc. I don't know any SF that can do any of that. Maybe tailstand. 



Grizzman said:


> Mag lights are of decently high quality, for reasonable cost, but they don't compete very well against Surefire in the the tactical market where Surefire puts most of its effort.



The XL series is a step in the right direction, and from my experience are as good as SFs.



Grizzman said:


> Grizz



You're welcome to post your opinions, but I think it would benefit you to at least try the lights I listed before passing judgement on them.


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## Kestrel (Oct 9, 2012)

Grizzman said:


> I think Surefire's decision to go with sealed non-LEGOable designs was a serious mistake.


Everyone, please keep in mind that CPF is not SF's primary market. From what I've read, we barely show up on their radar.


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## nbp (Oct 9, 2012)

Kestrel said:


> Everyone, please keep in mind that CPF is not SF's primary market. From what I've read, we barely show up on their radar.



Uhhh, can you not bother us with your silly facts, K? We're trying to love on SureFire quality and lego-ability over here. 

:nana:


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## cland72 (Oct 9, 2012)

As long as Surefire keeps building reliable, well thought out lights with a warranty that is unmatched, I will continue to pay too much for them.


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## Kestrel (Oct 9, 2012)

LOL, you guys crack me up.


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## BenChiew (Oct 9, 2012)

cland72 said:


> As long as Surefire keeps building reliable, well thought out lights with a warranty that is unmatched, I will continue to pay too much for them.



+1. 
With the exception that I don't think they are charging too much.


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## Dr. Strangelove (Oct 9, 2012)




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## nbp (Oct 9, 2012)

cland72 said:


> As long as Surefire keeps building reliable, well thought out lights with a warranty that is unmatched, I will continue to pay too much for them.



Brilliant! That needs to be a sigline. :goodjob:


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## Monocrom (Oct 10, 2012)

Chinese makers do certain things well. But none can bounce off of Satan's rock-hard horns without breaking. With SureFire, that level of durability is there. 

Where's that topic where a SureFire light literally sawed into a [email protected] with no problem at all? I'm happy to pay for that level of durability.


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## Grizzman (Oct 10, 2012)

Grizzman said:


> I think Surefire's decision to go with sealed non-LEGOable designs was a serious mistake.






Kestrel said:


> Everyone, please keep in mind that CPF is not SF's primary market. From what I've read, we barely show up on their radar.



Instead of using the term non-LEGOable, I should have selected non-upgradeable. Surefire sells lamp and head assemblies which customers can buy to upgrade the performance of their existing lights. This is still possible with their 6P Original, E-Series and L-Series lights, but I don't know how long these will continue to be made in their current state. The fact that we light lovers can swap parts from one series to another (sometimes only through the use of aftermarket adapters) is simply an byproduct of the modular design.

I agree that CPF isn't their primary market. Handheld lights are only one segment of their product line, and they likely receive significantly more income from weaponlights and supressros sold to the military and police.

Grizz


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## FrogWild (Oct 10, 2012)

All I know is that I've had dozens of guys approach me at gun and knife shows who have invested in SureFire lights and ask me if I have anything similar to what they're carrying. I can't tell you how many times I've shown them an EagleTac T20C2 which is not only brighter than their light, but a fraction of the cost. They they start feeling bad when their friend starts laughing at them. Many of them buy an EagleTac on the spot and the others go away pondering if they made a good choice or not. No other brand receives the "value" talk from customers like SureFire. I've never once had a guy walk up and feel his Fenix or Olight or 4Sevens may have been overpriced.


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## Monocrom (Oct 10, 2012)

FrogWild said:


> All I know is that I've had dozens of guys approach me at gun and knife shows who have invested in SureFire lights and ask me if I have anything similar to what they're carrying. I can't tell you how many times I've shown them an EagleTac T20C2 which is not only brighter than their light, but a fraction of the cost. Then they start feeling bad when their friend starts laughing at them. Many of them buy an EagleTac on the spot and the others go away pondering if they made a good choice or not. No other brand receives the "value" talk from customers like SureFire. I've never once had a guy walk up and feel his Fenix or Olight or 4Sevens may have been overpriced.



Bright & Cheap is an easy trick to pull off for any flashlight company.

Show me one that can also pull of rugged durability and extreme reliability the way SureFire can. Those are few and very far between. 

Some folks buy SureFire for the same reasons others buy Rolex. They just know the name, and instantly buy it. Doesn't change the fact that there are many out there who know what to expect from both brands, and buy them even after having researched other lights and watches. Yes, there are Rolex owners out there who wear one for better reasons than as a status symbol to impress a bunch of strangers on the street. I own SureFire lights because I want something far better and far more than just "bright & cheap."


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## Chauncey Gardiner (Oct 10, 2012)

I no longer collect and now have only four SureFires. They all have Malkoff, or Nailbender drop-ins. My seven, 4Sevens lights are all stock. 

The light that usually ends-up in my pocket, and on my nightstand, a Malkoff MD2 ~ Nichea219 ~ Hi/Low Ring......I love it. 

Thank you-all who collect SureFires and post pictures of them. :twothumbs Their wide varity is unsurpassed.

~ Chance


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## jamesmtl514 (Oct 10, 2012)

FrogWild said:


> ... I've never once had a guy walk up and feel his Fenix or Olight or 4Sevens may have been overpriced.


They are very reasonably priced for disposable lights.

I'll hold on to my Surefires with their excellent lifetime warranty and fantastic 3rd party upgrades.


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## shao.fu.tzer (Oct 10, 2012)

I have way more Surefires than Chinese lights and even the "good" brands, like the burning bird one, or the striped horse one have failed me miserably in the past when I needed them most. That's why I stick to nice, made in the USA lights for my essential gear. I still buy cheapos to give away to the non-flashaholics and have fun with, but I would never grab one as my go-to light. In my extensive Surefire use through the years, I've only had one real problem - a Z59 that stopped working for no reason - but it was extremely well used at the time and Surefire sent me a replacement like 3 days later (not to mention, I repaired the tailcap myself and had a spare Z59 when all was said and done). Now considering that I go to my Surefire lights at least 80% of the time and have had only one failure in all these years, and that those awesome brands whose names I shall not mention barely got played with before dying on me, I think the money is well spent. They may not have the newest emitters or the greatest designs, but they work when you need them to and they keep Americans in jobs. BUY SUREFIRE!!!! 

Shao


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## Chauncey Gardiner (Oct 10, 2012)

jamesmtl514 said:


> They are very reasonably priced for disposable lights.


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## Bullzeyebill (Oct 10, 2012)

This thread is turning into a "we- they" topic of discussion, and there have been many of those types of threads through the years. Mostly the central theme of them has been "are Surefire flashlights too expensive", and this topic has been beat to death. The OP started this thread in June, and has disappeared from it. Time to end it.


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