# Complete New Shop, Advice?



## matt304 (Aug 6, 2010)

I just ordered 3 large machines, and I will be setting up a new workshop when they arrive.

I purchased a PM 1440B lathe http://www.machinetoolonline.com/PM1440B.html, a PM 949 mill http://www.machinetoolonline.com/PMMillingMachines.html, and a 1HP 7x12" band saw.

I am wondering what I might get surprised with once everything shows up. Or, if there is anything I absolutely need here before it all arrives.

I don't have a forklift myself, so I was going to have my friend bring his forklift and pallet jack the day it all arrives. I was hoping on having him here to get it off the truck, then quickly unboxing, and using the pallet jack to situate it all in proper locations. My friend uses the lift for a lumberyard business, so I won't be borrowing it off him, which is why I am nervous about anything I might be surprised with that could extend his stay.

I believe both machines come assembled, and the 220V wiring will be done before they arrive. Anyone with past experience unloading these have any advice on what else I might need ready to make the unloading and positioning go quickly?

As far as prep, the only real prep I am doing is painting the OSB walls in the shop with a coat of gloss white paint.

I read that I should leave a little clearance between the wall and lathe for rear access.

Thanks


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## precisionworks (Aug 7, 2010)

All those machines have a high center of gravity, and tip easily ... lift them only enough to get the forklift (or pallet jack) moving. Quite a bit of new machinery gets damaged in the short distance between the delivery truck & the spot in the shop.



> My friend uses the lift for a lumberyard business ... which is why I am nervous about anything I might be surprised with that could extend his stay.


Machinery moving is a slow process ... you may want to have him do this on a non business day, as a lathe & a mill can easily take half a day to unload from the freight truck, uncrate, assemble & move into position. Glaciers move pretty slowly & so does machinery  Getting in a hurry can be a $5000 mistake (if you're lucky) or it can send a few people to the hospital ... both those will slow you down even more.



> any advice on what else I might need ready to make the unloading and positioning go quickly?


Hire a rigger. They'll have everything unloaded & in the shop in 1/4 the time it takes anyone else. A reputable rigger will be insured, so anything they damage will be replaced or repaired. Doing it yourself may cost less, but only if nothing is damaged & no one gets hurt. And it will take a lot longer than you anticipate.

I had a forklift & an experienced machinery mover to get my lathe into the shop - almost identical in size & weight to yours. Started about 9 a.m., finished in time for a late lunch (12:30 p.m.) Didn't breath easy until it was over. Chipped a little paint but didn't bend any controls. I would not want to do that again.


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## matt304 (Aug 7, 2010)

A rigger you say. Interesting. I think I will use that advice now that you mentioned it. Thanks


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## 350xfire (Aug 7, 2010)

matt304 said:


> A rigger you say. Interesting. I think I will use that advice now that you mentioned it. Thanks


 
Yeah a rigger is good if you want to spend another $500-1000... Of course, if you don't have what it takes to move the stuff, then $1000 may be a good deal!


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## matt304 (Aug 7, 2010)

I didn't know a rigger would charge that much to move some machines from the driveway to the garage. I figure a few hundred, but not closer to a grand. If that's true, I can't really afford to spend another grand for such a thing. I have a few more grand I need to use for tooling and more small machines/tools, which is sort of precious needed commodity at the time.

I think we will be alright if we don't rush this. I will have a few people there, and we will have things properly secured to the lift while moving them with heavy straps, and use some leather padding to prevent paint chipping.

Please let me know if this sounds to be sufficient, that is securing the straps to the fork around the machines and moving them very carefully of course.

What would a rigger do for this process, most likely?


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## precisionworks (Aug 8, 2010)

> What would a rigger do for this process


Because they have years of experience & have moved hundreds (perhaps thousands) of machines, they know what works and what doesn't. 



> a few people there, and we will have things properly secured to the lift while moving them with heavy straps


That sounds like a good plan, as long as at least one person has done this before. Put that *one* person in charge & have them direct the move. 

I've read enough horror stories about people tipping their brand new lathe or mill, and both machines naturally want to tip when raised even an inch above the floor. If none of your crew has ever done this before, you may want to find someone who has.


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## wquiles (Aug 8, 2010)

precisionworks said:


> Put that *one* person in charge & have them direct the move.


That is how I got the lathe, mill, and Quincy compressor in my "shop". Always the same guy (next door neighbor). He is not a "rigger" per se, but has like 15 years experience with trailers, boats, moving heavy items, etc.. - he is just "very" conservative, he takes his time, he is extremely safe, and never in a hurry. Whenever we have done these moves for me, HE is in charge :thumbsup:


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## gadget_lover (Aug 8, 2010)

precisionworks said:


> That sounds like a good plan, as long as at least one person has done this before. Put that *one* person in charge & have them direct the move.



But keep in mind that even that may fail. 

My neighbor's brother is a retired trucker. He helped move my mill. The mill is only around 1,000 pounds but that's a lot when you are trying to keep it from tipping. There were several times that I was sure it was about to go over.

A single trip to the emergency room may cost more than the rigger.

The riggers charge by the hour. And they have a 2 (or was it 3) hour minimum. The riggers would have cost slightly more than the price of the used mill. And I should have done it.

If you can safely get it the parts loaded on the truck and transported to your shop, you might be able to cut a deal by letting them schedule the offloading at their leisure.

Daniel


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## 350xfire (Aug 8, 2010)

Yeap, for this job they may send out 3 guys with a forklift. Minimum 3-4 hours. When I asked for a quote to move my lathe 30 miles they quoted me $1200. Oh, and the estimator said it would be $255 per hour...

Ended up getting two buddies from work to do it for breakfast, lunch and a custom maglite each!

I built a couple of dollies and set it on the dollies, then rolled it to the back of a flat bed trailer where we (5 guys with help of car jack) lifted the "light end" into the trailer first. Then put pipes under it and rolled it as much as we could. Got the other side in using a jack and put pipes under it as well. Rolled it into the middle of the trailer.... Drove home. Once home, drove trailer in the garage, engine hoist to place the lathe back on the dollies, rolled it to the back of the trailer then used engine hoists, one each side to lift the lathe... Drove the trailer out and the lathe was suspended. Got the dollies half way under the lathe. Then used a jack to center them up and done... Left the lathe on the dollies so I can roll around if needed.

It took a full day (9am-5pm) to do this move for us, but we took out ime and everything went as planned.


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## matt304 (Aug 8, 2010)

Guys, I realize that a rigger has countless hours of experience and so forth.

The problem is, I just can't give them $1000 to perform a 30ft move.

Precisionworks, you sound like you have seen a rigger work before. How would they properly secure the mill in the lift?

My general concept would be quite a few heavy straps, ratchet straps of course. One at the highest point, one at lowest point, and some in between. Like I said, leather padding on the machine points.

My friend with the equipment has been driving heavy machinery for years, and owns over a million worth of equipment. I would think that if we can strap this down correctly, he can drive the way that is required, because he has grown up on this stuff. I realize we are going to need to take this as slow as absolutely possible. The mill weighs 2600lbs! The lathe weighs 1300lbs.

So how about we talk about safe methods for the actual moving process at this point, for the times when a rigger will not be used.


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## 350xfire (Aug 8, 2010)

Another opinion here:
Get dollies that you can roll the equipment with. This way you just set the equipment on them and roll. Use engine hoists to lift the equipment. Get some people to help push. And yes, straps will be your best friends. I would also make sure to have 2 engine hoists available in case you need help balancing the load.

2600 and 1300 lbs is not that much as long as it is lifted properly and slowly.

Oh, and by dollies I don't mean the $12.99 Harbor Freight 1000lb dollies. I mean steel dollies with 300lb+ casters. I did build 2 dollies out of 2x2 steel tubing and used 5 of the Harbor Freight 330lb ($5 each) casters on them and they are holdig up great! I built mine for about $120. If you go buy them at Grainger, expect to pay about $400 each! If you can get a flat bed trailer in your garage, go rent one for $100 at U-Haul or something and drive the machines in your garage, lift them up and drive the trailer out while they are suspended (one at a time of course).

This is not impossible to do!!! Just plan ahead and take it easy! And no I would not pay $1000 either if you can get 3 or 4 buddies to come help for beer and pizza..

There is more than one way to skin this cat. Oh, and looking at a way a rigger would do this may not be applicable as they would probably show up in an 18 wheeler with a forklift attached that can do all this in 30 minutes! You need "redneck" engineering here. How much duck tape, bailing wire and straps do you need? 

I would get about 4 ratcheting straps, 2 car jacks, some 2x4's or some type of support wood, 2 cherry pickers and whatever many dollies you need to support the weight or the footprint of the machines. This would mean 2 for the lathe and may be up to 3-4 for the mill depending on the base size. And of course- 4-6 guys!


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## gadget_lover (Aug 8, 2010)

Rule #1: never, ever get under the machine. If it falls, you will be the cushion.

Rule #2: beer AFTER you are done.

Rule #3: A tipping 1 ton machine will not be stopped by a 200 lb person pushing. Use straps and braces above the center of gravity.

Rule #4: Balancing a load by holding a rope looks great. In reality, the load shifts and you go with it. Use ratcheting straps/comealongs.

Rule #5: A rope rated 1000 lbs will snap with a LOT of force when overloaded. The whipping end can cause real damage. Use rope/chains/cable that is rated way higher than the load that will be placed on it.

Rule #6: Don't guess. If you are not sure about the load capacity of something, find out.

Rule #7: never, ever get under the machine. If it falls, you will be the cushion.

Rule #8: If using engine hoists, pay attention to the capacity when extended. A 1.5 ton lift extended all the way may crumple at only 600 pounds.

Good luck, (and I envy you).

Dan


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## matt304 (Aug 8, 2010)

Since I have never had to do this before, I would really like hear someone who has to please describe the unloading process, so that I can have a plan to follow.

I don't know how high the truck bed is that these things will come on yet, and I don't know about the crating, either. I also don't know if there are designated lifting points on the mill/lathe, and maybe there are points where I don't want to put any load either.

So if someone could give me a rundown on how it should be done, from truck, to fork, to ground and uncrating, to pallet jack, and then to positioning, that would be a big help for planning.

Another thing is, this is going through a little taller than 7' garage door. The mill is like 6'6" tall itself. So there is very minimal clearance for overhang, and I really don't know much about this pallet jack yet. I am going to have to call my friend tonight and make sure it is heavy duty enough to handle moving a 2600lb mill.

Should the mill possibly be disassembled somewhat for this, like the motor on top taken off for lower height and CG? Or would that involve a lot of work?

This is indeed more complicated when you sit down and think about it than it seemed at first.


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## KC2IXE (Aug 8, 2010)

Every move is different, and every move has parts that are the same

One HUGE thing riggers have (besides insurance) is equipment. I spent a LOT of time rigging cranes into place "back when", and rigging doesn't bother me, but there are times I say "Better call a pro". For example, I rencemtly had to move a 4 drawer 4 hour rated fireproof file cabinet. Big deal, it's a file cabinet, how bad can it be, right? 990lbs empty bad. I spent $250 having it moved up one flight of steps from my parents basement (it was manditory to move it THAT week - house was being sold), and then down into my basement. I knew exactly HOW they were going to do it, and with what gear, but I couldn't rent the right gear for love or money (trust me, I tried) - they showed with the powered hand truck, and were done with the whole job (up and out, 3 miles to my place, in and down) in about 45 minutes

Sometimes it's not only knowing HOW, it's having the tools. BTW, It took me 2+ weeks to arrange the move, as the riggers were "safe movers" that had to come from another state (about 75 miles each way), so they stacked 4 jobs in the area to make it reasonable for all of us


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## precisionworks (Aug 9, 2010)

> Every move is different


+1

Trying to suggest how to move your equipment is like a doctor trying to tell a patient how to do brain surgery ... it's not impossible to do this, but it isn't easy.



> 7' garage door. The mill is like 6'6"


It's a great time to install a taller garage door, at least 8' and preferably 10'.



> don't know if there are designated lifting points on the mill/lathe


For the lathe, no. You'll have to secure one strap at the headstock, one at the tailstock, and move the compound back & forth for balance.

The mill may have a lifting eye (or a threaded hole for a lifting eye) in the top of the ram. Moving the ram back & forth will find the balance point.


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## matt304 (Aug 9, 2010)

I was a little off. I had to remeasure the door to remember. It is 7'10". So almost 8 foot anyways.


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## precisionworks (Aug 9, 2010)

> It is 7'10". So almost 8 foot


Mine too, and they are a PITA to work around when moving equipment. An 8' door means the forklift cannot come into the shop with the mast raised  The forklift is used to get the machinery off the truck (or off the trailer) & set down just inside the overhead door. Then the machine is lifted up *one inch *so that 1" black pipe rollers can be slipped under the base. You'll need a couple of 6' pinch bars to lift the machine that tiny amount, and the machine can tip if you try to lift it with just one. A heavy lathe makes an awful noise if the pinch bar slips out from under the base, but the base casting usually does not break. 

After all that fun, the lathe will need to be raised about 4" so that machinery levelers can be installed. That can be pretty interesting, as a 3000# machine will take a hand or foot right off if said machine slips at the wrong time. It also gets *really *tippy during this procedure, so don't get yourself anywhere that the machine can fall against you.

All in all, it was the most nerve wracking experience I can remember. Nothing got broken & no one went to the hospital, meaning a successful move


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## G1K (Aug 9, 2010)

Know any farmers? I unloaded the lathe from the back of the trailer with this and a mill from the back of my truck with a slightly smaller tractor.







Pallet jack to get both into the garage. The lathe weighs the most at just over 3000 lbs, the pallet jack is rated at 5000 lbs. The only issue was getting over the lip in the garage. 

Ryan


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## matt304 (Aug 9, 2010)

G1K said:


> The only issue was getting over the lip in the garage.
> 
> Ryan



You know, that is the exact problem I keep envisioning. Everything is smooth, except that darn bump there.

You sound like you had a similar procedure to what I am doing with the pallet jack, so what did you end up doing for that bump?


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## G1K (Aug 9, 2010)

Load the lathe or mill at the front of the forks (I was pushing not pulling the pallet jack). When the front wheels hit, lower the load onto some blocks, lower the jack and run the front wheels over the bump. Raise the jack and lift the load, push until the steering wheels hit the bump. Reblock the load, lower jack, pull it out, swing around to the other side and grab the load from the inside of the garage where both sets of wheels will be on the garage floor over the bump.

It took a little extra time to do it like this but I didn't want to chance dropping anything by using the running start method.

R


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## Pidg (Aug 14, 2010)

G1K said:


> Know any farmers? I unloaded the lathe from the back of the trailer with this and a mill from the back of my truck with a slightly smaller tractor. Ryan



I used a tow truck with a "lathe lift" that I fabricated to move my 2000# lathe from a panel truck to my garage with a 7' high garage door opening. Pics & discussion are here:

https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/256819&highlight=pidg

For the height difference between the driveway and garage slabs, maybe you could rent a large steel plate from a construction company. I often see the plates used during road maintenance to cover holes or channels to allow traffic flow until the openings are permanently closed. 

Shim the plate to level, at the height of the garage slap, then the dollies can easily roll from the plate into the garage.

Bill Pidgeon


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## precisionworks (Aug 14, 2010)

Bill, 

You haven't posted in your lathe thread for some time ... did it freeze during the winter  ???


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## 65535 (Aug 14, 2010)

I saw mention of ratcheting straps, they work great for holding stuff down. I may be off base here, but I would NEVER use ANY ratcheting hold down to lift ANYTHING heavy.

Slings are solid for a reason, get the proper equipment, hold down's are never rated for lifting load.


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## Pidg (Aug 14, 2010)

precisionworks said:


> Bill,
> 
> You haven't posted in your lathe thread for some time ... did it freeze during the winter  ???



Barry, I'm laughing... I haven't done anything except contemplate what to do. 

I was sure I'd have a VFD by now, but your thread on an RPC for your new lathe (Congrats!) was a wake up call that I should consider an RPC for my lathe. I don't know if the foot brake has an interlock with the motor, and haven't made any effort to explore it. I really want a VFD, but I don't spend money until I'm pretty sure I have the right solution.

Also, I have no tooling. I want to go with inserts, but the there are so many choices and I'll mainly be turning steel, so most of the advice here pertaining to aluminum and tungsten isn't my first priority. And I'm making plans to renovate my house, and, I'm riding my bike while the Michigan temps are friendly, and I helped my daughter move into her dorm - soccer season is starting and I'll be going to her home games and I want a pit in my garage slab so I can lower the lathe into the pit an on into the basement. I can't even get a 4x8 plywood sheet into my basement - I also butcher wood, and work full time, and on and on. At some point, the lathe will become the top priority.

I really appreciate all the info you post - I've learned a lot from you and Will and many others. This is a great place to learn.

Bill


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