# IR technology questions.



## degarb

I ask: is there differences in heat efficiencies between different infrared bulbs? Life span of bulb differences? How many technologies are there for ir bulbs? Reflector efficiency variations? How much better is a gold or red reflector than silver? Also, in an ir heat lamp, how much of the heat energy is pure radiation v. conducted and convected heat? 


Light has its applications, but so does focused heat!

Also, infrared is like compressor tech, need 3000 watts to do exciting stuff with it. Any thoughts on getting 220 15 amps out of a normal house?


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## degarb

Good explanation of what IR is: http://biosmartsolutions.com/shop/buyers-guide/technology/history-of-infrared-technology/

Some info concerning bulb differences : http://biosmartsolutions.com/shop/buyers-guide/buyers-beware/


Now, my take on IR advantages : I ignore health claims. Makes sense to heat objects, not areas, and should be ideal for bathroom, exterior job heater, desk heater, couch heater for one person, large workshop too big to heat, and a safer paint stripping tool. 


To me, the reflectors should heat, possibly damaginge the bulb. But at what temperature? How fragile are the bulbs?

Now, there are IR blankets! How? And why not. IR socks or boot toe end heaters that strap to boot top?


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## degarb

Anyone know what the best IR reflector material is? Thinking 550 F, but might need to go 1000 F. Aluminum foil might catch fire or melt at 1 inch from a 550 watt bulb, in an enclosed space. Gold too expensive. Might try polished aluminum sheets, which would likely melt and deform, rather than catch fire as would aluminum tape or foil. 

Thinking I will build my own from ground up. Currently, I am using a unit made of modified two Tradesman 1500 watt, united. 3000 Watt is necessary, from two 110 V. the trick will be a lightweight aluminum housing with melting temp at 800F. This way the heat is better focused as I need.


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## FRITZHID

Polished copper is next best to gold, then brass/bronze.


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## degarb

FRITZHID said:


> Polished copper is next best to gold, then brass/bronze.



Thanks! Much better info than my Google search. 

I was thinking gold engine heat tape, but doubt it has much real metal in it to reflect. If taped to aluminum, would heat and melt. . Polished copper or brass sheet may doable. Brasso, for polish, I guess. 

Have polished brass in the past. Aluminum, never.(Aluminum would be light, easier to purchase. Though, polished aluminum flashing would be pushing it heatwise. Especially, for my primary purpose of near point blank heating. Guessing half as effective as copper? ) 

Hmm. Wonder if my gutter guy would sell me a section of old copper gutter, which cut correctly could be used. However, I need exactly 8.25 inch wide by 10 or 12 inch reflector, containing two 10 inch 1500 watt ir bulbs, for maximum heat concentration on surface that I am cooking.


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## degarb

Any idea of desirable thickness? 8 mil copper thick enough for a reflector?


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## FRITZHID

Well, the thicker the better but the polish is the more contributing factor. Best polish you can muster.


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## degarb

Any thoughts on reflector shape? The tradesman ir bulb 12ish typical cylinder. For weight reason I am thinking oval. Two bulbs, two 4.1 inch semi circle polished copper reflectors for each bulb in parallel, rather than one reflector for both. In my mind, circle beats oval for better rear heat reflection. However, a squished circle would mean less metal to move around. Also as the reflector heats up, storing heat from inefficiencies, I want that heat to help melt/cook the surface upon which I am focusing upon.


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## degarb

On a side note, what amperage service do the 220 homes have where you are? 

Here, most 110V breakers might handle 1800 watts on a good day. But to run a decent electric power washer, compressor for air tools/paint/ blast, and IR, you need double to quadruple on circuit rated power.


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## degarb

Maybe I should go propane? But wonder how many hours a tank would hold out. 

https://m.ebay.com/itm/Thermablaste...d=192326340383&_trksid=p2349624.c100408.m2460


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## FRITZHID

Most outlets where I am are good for about 2400 watts on the 120v side. 
As far as reflector shape.... You'd have to experiment, everything I worked with was flat. (IR bounce mirrors)
Propane.... Well, I guess that depends on what and where your doing this project.


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## degarb

FRITZHID said:


> everything I worked with was flat. (IR bounce mirrors)



What was your project? I haven't revealed mine, since I don't want to derail with comments on the task and my chosen approach. I have chosen IR, and now need to make it more focused in an area 8.1 inches by 12ish, with as much heat as possible, yet evenly distributed.

Looks like 5100 btu per 1500 watt of electric. I am not sure if this holds for IR. So, I am using 3000 watt electric IR (two heatstorm tradesman 1500s, bolted together.) 10200 btus. With current efficiencies, I expect I need another 5000 btus to be truly happy. However, with copper reflector, and reducing the 10 inch width to 8, I might get what I need without a third circuit. (2 cords are practical, even on different circuits. Not 3.) The propane looks promising, if true IR. Gas usage cost and dimensions of heating head, might be a concern.


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## FRITZHID

Some co-workers and I were experimenting with laser bounce mirrors for an old co2 laser. Had a full machine shop at our access, incl polishing equipment.
It started from playing around with one of the old, solid copper, gold plated mirrors from it's beam path, from there we just started testing various things.


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## degarb

Hmm. No magnatism in the heat storm current reflector. Looks like just thin aluminum flashing. A bit too thin, as I was washing it, it wanted to deform. 

How much better do you think copper would be. I am not against putting a hundred into the reflector, if heating my working surface works better.


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## degarb

degarb said:


> Hmm. No magnatism in the heat storm current reflector. Looks like just thin aluminum flashing. A bit too thin, as I was washing it, it wanted to deform.
> 
> How much better do you think copper would be. I am not against putting a hundred into the reflector, if heating my working surface works better.



https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/solar-radiation-absorbed-materials-d_1568.html

https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/emissivity-coefficients-d_447.html

I am wondering if the effectiveness may be related to the emissivity table, linked above. Since, I cannot find any heat reflective table of various metals, yet.


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## degarb

I found a local sheet metal shop, who made one copper reflector to test. 

The result, side by side Heatstorm.com Tradesman 1500Watt units, the one with the copper reflector was significantly cooler when touching the outside body than the unit with the stock reflector. Both bodies are heavily vented to avoid getting obnoxiously hot. This means more heat was projected forward on to the object being heated. 


Now, his copper was pretty shiny. But there were scratches, and perhaps I can do better. I never polished copper so currently very little idea. Did see a vet spend an hour polishing a brass door knob with brasso and a rag, to super shine.

I found this website with a fair explanation of attainable short, fast reacting, mid wave bulbs. 
http://www.emittedenergy.com/infrared-emitters.html
So, I am guessing the short creates more superficial heat, while mid goes deeper into objects. They don't say whether carbon or tungsten bulbs last longer... (So, for my use, really need two mid bulbs, plus one fast reactor bulb with 180 gold toward rear of my 8.5 inch by 2.5 inch deep copper reflector, would be ideal-each bulb 1600 watts. But, probably not practical. Two cords, two breakers, are practical. And I can only see a generator pushing 800 watts. So maybe put an optional 800 watt fast bulb, plus minimal wire and cord, in with minimal weight addition. Used only as a turbo mode when a 3rd circuit is available, or cheap 800 watt generator is around.


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## degarb

Any thoughts on electric ceramic ir? : . https://m.ebay.com/itm/Ceramicx-FTE-120V-800W-Infrared-Ceramic-Heating-Element/161756729895

I am guessing it emits from both sides, front and back, making it not so great as a object heater? Also, guessing shorter wavelength?


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## FRITZHID

That looks more like a downward "warming" unit for say... animals, food maybe, or perhaps preheating of materials...? i day at 800w and being that size, that i would not make a very effective source for your project. just my 2 cents.


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## degarb

FRITZHID said:


> That looks more like a downward "warming" unit for say... animals, food maybe, or perhaps preheating of materials...? i day at 800w and being that size, that i would not make a very effective source for your project. just my 2 cents.



Just pondering 6 of these. Or, one or two to rear as my 3rd circuit, supplemental turbo to the two 1500Watt bulbs. Just pondering, hypothetical questions. However, at $16 might be worth it as a light duty, unit. A little sheet metal, some aluminum, a handle - nothing serious. 

Anyway, ordered one, and will find out first hand. 

I have not had time yet to find out cost to gold plate my 17x8 by 3.5 inch deep copper reflector to prevent heat induced oxidizing. Also, probably will youtube how it is done, if that saves money. 


I did find out that Emitted Energy sells 1600w 16inch heating area carbon fast response, mid wave tubes for $90 a pop. 180 degree ceramic reflector on bulb rear side, which reflects 70 percent of the heat. I assume the 30% ir not reflected is converted to heat, which is not what i want. I wish to melt from inside out, not ignite. . Their term, "fast response", is meaningless to me as yet. So, obviously, my current carbon tube source is cheaper. I would not consider switching, unless better. . Now, they steer us away from gold rear reflector on bulb, as it flakes off.... Emitted Energy custom makes the bulbs, so I assume 120 degree might be possible. 

Maybe a mini 120 reflector an inch behind bulb, copper with gold plating, in addition to unplated copper rear would be more cost efficient?


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## degarb

https://youtu.be/_PmJGOcBZQI



This guy is awesome! But, is gold plating necessarily this complicated, with so many chemicals, and look so methy? 

I subscribed to his channel, based on this one video.


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## FRITZHID

That's Cody, he's very popular and quite learned. I'd say (haven't watched that particular vid) that he's most likely on the ball on the how-to vids.


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## degarb

Here is a must read: http://www.deltat.com/pdf/Infrared Energy, Emissivity, Reflection & Transmission.pdf

Now, after read it, i finally understand why your heat sinks should be flat black, your home walls inside and out glossy, and my gut was right that Emissivity and reflection are directly inverse. Also, as an object absorbs ir should also emit it. So, by lining the shiny copper reflector with the aluminum (oxidation reason), perhaps some of that absorbed or into heat,reemitted as ir on the back side of the aluminum , can be reflected back into the aluminum from the copper, for front side emissions. Definitely need a sealed air gap between the aluminum and copper to avoid conducting heat to the copper from the aluminum reflector, which probably isn't feasible. (End of my brain dead fall back, if gold plating proves too costly, even if bulb specific defectors is too costly. But, I don't see cleaning the copper each hour as viable. And think the ceramic 180 is bad with only 70% reflection. No price on flakey gold bulb rear.) Assuming brass might behave like copper, but not done the research.

I probably should invest in an ir thermometer that can go to 1400F or higher. But about tested out, for now. The priority is a 4500 watt unit body. I can't seem to get lit up for taking propane ir any further. Probably, the one stumble, one thing that breaks, one gust of wind, and fire splashes everywhere. And those fire stains can be rather challenging to get out of a house, burned to a crisp.


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## degarb

I have clear epoxy i could coat the copper reflector, to prevent oxidization. Maybe urethane. But, have not considered, because I found melting point of epoxy glue and high temperature paint disappointingly low on some flame test I did last winter.

But according to the literature, epoxy is ir unresponsive. However, until i can vent and blow cool the rear, the heat build up over time should melt the epoxy. One square inch test may answer the question.


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## degarb

Hope you know about IR meters.

Bought, https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0727WYCYF/?tag=cpf0b6-20

This model has settable emissivity, for more accuracy, and came with their own emissivity chart : https://drive.google.com/open?id=1UMTjDFyYlc7IHFkV7z1iJFmA3mNo6it7 

Firstly, not sure I bought a high enough temp model. Then, reading specs, +-2C <100C , am I reading right? Then, it doesn't seem right in cold temperatures. Last night, 16F, house siding reading 12F, when house siding should have heat leakage from 68F interior and some stored IR from 1 hour prior sunlight. Snow, read 4F, and I believe, lower, if I adjusted the emissivity to proper level...I did find this morning (air temp 22F) more consistent readings holding it point blank onto siding. But while holding it in place, repeatedly measuring, the siding ir temp would rise as high as 34F, maybe even 36F (too many tests to remember)-which may be attributable to siding heat leakage getting trapped in thermometer nose cone. This rise in temperature, by holding and repeating, phenomena is not happening inside. {After seeing one Best Western painter work in 30F, in 2006 I was forced to paint 3 sides of a new house, outside and below freezing: it worked down to 28F, below, the water borne paint froze. But still not sure if heating the water-based paint or the heat leakage through the siding, is the reason "below freezing" painting works. ...Though, I did a 2008 test on my own house, put bowl of water-based paint in microwave, heated to just under boiling, painted my own side lattice in 15 F, which lasts to this day. I was astounded it didn't freeze.}...Not much luck yet getting consistent body temperature reading with this. I am guessing body ir thermometers add a few degrees, adjust for emissivity, and take more sample measurements. Temple reading at 88 emissivity set, seems to be half consistent, but half not.


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## degarb

Looks like some IR thermometers come with a traceable certificate. The Fluke 62 max is $100, and $200 with the certificate. At a glance, the Fluke 62 Max may be a bit more accurate than the $30 range I would probably wish to choose.


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## degarb

http://support.fluke.com/raytek-sales/Download/Asset/IR_THEORY_55514_ENG_REVB_LR.PDF

Simple little document that I just stumbled upon, and trying to pull out something practical.


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## degarb

Update: I just received the Etekcity 630 model. Outside temperature is 27: the 630 is reading 27.5 on the siding (as expected), while the 1025D model reads 22F, then slowly rises to 36F after repeated readings on same surface. At room temperature, they read close to each other. Also, the 630 model, I have to say (normally, wouldn't care), does feel more sturdy and better made than the 1025D...Returning the 1025D, I guess.


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