# Brightness Isn't Everything



## carrot (Mar 8, 2009)

It isn't.

Discuss.


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## LLCoolBeans (Mar 8, 2009)

Agreed, quality is far more important than quantity. People get too hung up on numbers.


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## glockboy (Mar 8, 2009)

It isn't?
Then how come newer light brighter than older light?


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## EngrPaul (Mar 8, 2009)

Proof:

Jessica Simpson


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## Black Rose (Mar 8, 2009)

When I first got interested in flashlights again, all I wanted were reallly bright lights.

I went to use one of those really bright lights one night for some close up work and blinded myself. Went inside and grabbed a light with less output and finished what I was doing.

Of all my lights, my Fenix E01 and Gerber Infinity Ultras seem to get the most use.


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## EngrPaul (Mar 8, 2009)

But seriously, I'm choosing Q3 natural white over R2 cool white most of the time. 

I consider neutral white higher quality YMMV.


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## american lockpicker (Mar 8, 2009)

*"Brightness Isn't Everything" *that should be Maglite Solitaires motto...


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## Gunner12 (Mar 8, 2009)

Tint, throw, color rendering, smoothness or sharpness of beam, and runtime are also improtant.



EngrPaul said:


> Proof:
> 
> Jessica Simpson


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## PetaBread (Mar 8, 2009)

carrot said:


> It isn't.
> 
> Discuss.


 


Lol. If this thread turns out good It'll probably be worth sticking.

For Newbies to read.


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## qip (Mar 8, 2009)

thats why multilevel lights are great :twothumbs


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## PetaBread (Mar 8, 2009)

Anyways, my LF3XT has a 0.2% (I think) Brightest level which *IS* all i use 

and find it bright enough for everyday tasks. I have a Dorcy 2 AA light 

(Dont know the output but would guess it's 10-20 lumens) and find it too 

bright. :tinfoil:


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## carrot (Mar 8, 2009)

A recurring problem is that sometimes we mistake price for our expectations of brightness. If a light is expensive, and it is not maximum brightness, is it worth it? Why or why not? I always hear detractors talking about various lights being "way too dim for the price," and I will not name anything specific because I don't want the thread to go in that direction, but in terms of some of the very high end lights there are always going to be a few detractors who say that the light isn't worth it because it isn't cranking out 500 lumens OTF.

This really bothers me -- haven't we, as a group, learned more than that from experience? That lumens is not the only measure of worth of a flashlight?


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## Ajay (Mar 8, 2009)

Here are some things I find more important than brightness*:

Beam shape*: A nice mix between spill and spot (My new 6p LED for eg).
*Multi-mode lights* very useful when working up close to the flashlight (My D10).
*Reliability* is super important!
I prefer neutral color lights but that's not a deal breaker.


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## Flying Turtle (Mar 8, 2009)

Puttering around my often intentionally darkened house after my wife goes to sleep is when I use my lights the most. As we all eventually discover, a nice low level for these times works best. Little lights have always been favorites of mine, from an old Photon 3, bought after lurking here a bit, to a very recent Photon Freedom with an orange LED, just for their long lasting dimness. It's great to see the manufacturers are now trying to give us more all-in-one lights with variable brightness. I'd like to think CPF has been instrumental in bringing on this trend. I will be very slow to buy new lights without this ability.

Geoff


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## PetaBread (Mar 8, 2009)

carrot said:


> A recurring problem is that sometimes we mistake price for our expectations of brightness. If a light is expensive, and it is not maximum brightness, is it worth it? Why or why not? I always hear detractors talking about various lights being "way too dim for the price," and I will not name anything specific because I don't want the thread to go in that direction, but in terms of some of the very high end lights there are always going to be a few detractors who say that the light isn't worth it because it isn't cranking out 500 lumens OTF.
> 
> This really bothers me -- haven't we, as a group, learned more than that from experience? That lumens is not the only measure of worth of a flashlight?


 

I dont think it'll ever end. Lol. 

I dont know the Lumens my LF3XT produces on 100%, but when i saw it i 

said, "Well, I'll never be using Max". I was wowed by it but i knew there 

was no need where i live for it. 

EDIT: IMHO, if a individual wants 200+ lumens they should just buy a spotlight. Lol.


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## kelmo (Mar 9, 2009)

Very true. 

My primary metric in choosing a EDC is the runtime to output ratio. The new SF L1 for example, 10 lumens for 16 regulated hours on one battery is fantastic!

I also like my EDC to bias flood over throw, say a 60:40 split. The Arc6 does this very well. 

When I get a light I ask myself, "Would this be good on the trail?"

While I love my upgraded L4 w/KX2C and 6PDL w/BOG Q5 drop in they are not practical in most situations. You have to direct the beams downrange or the glare from the beam pointed at targets within 5m is often just as blinding as darkness.

kelmo


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## seaside (Mar 9, 2009)

I do not need bright light, I rather need a light that I like. But for Jessica simpson.... hmmm... I can take even if I don't need... LOL.


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## 325addict (Mar 9, 2009)

it isn't indeed. Ever tried to read numbers on integrated circuits, transistors etc with a C3 Centurion? WHOOW!! Totally "blinded by the light" 

Much better here is an L1 Lumamax in the first stage. 

BUT: when in the woods, this first stage is useless for looking a little further ahead, even the bright stage is not enough then. In this case, you gladly switch on the aforementioned C3 and... you can see lots of things you didn't see with the L1 :thumbsup:

This is just as I see it... not just _read _it should be so, no, I actually tried this.
I use the L1 LumaMax on a daily basis to read those numbers when I can't read them with the ambient light, and not long ago I tried numerous flashlights in the woods.

That's why we all have more than one flashy: for every purpose the right one. I compare this with jackets: when it's an ice cold sunny day in winter, you can best choose a down-jacket, in case it's cloudy and rainy, you'd better _not_ wear a down-jacket, take a Goretex one instead 


Timmo.


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## maxspeeds (Mar 9, 2009)

I'm starting to value runtime more. When you have a defined capacity of your energy source, you can choose greater brightness or greater runtime. Ofcourse this is when comparing similiar light sources (incans to incans and LEDs to LEDs). However, when you compare different types of lighting, they each have their own efficiencies and a runtime compromise can be reached with a more efficient, brighter light source.


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## Sgt. LED (Mar 9, 2009)

Multimode can be nice if the UI is really simple.
U2 by 2 on 1 18650:
Level 1 about 10 lumens for 48 hours
Level 2 about 50 lumens for 24 hours
Level 3 about 125 lumens for 12 hours
Level 4 about 250 lumens for 6 hours
Level 5 about 375 lumens for 3 hours
Level 6 about 500 lumens for 1 hour 

Usual priority order:
Reliability, _absolute must have_
Runtime, _efficiency is king_
Tint, _cool is not kind to my eyes_
Beam shape, _task dependant really_
Size, _overall bulk in relationship to battery type and number_
Brightness, _I like a low low more than a high high 90% of the time_


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## prime77 (Mar 9, 2009)

I agree 100%. When I first joined CPF all I wanted were the brightest lights out there. I work nights and get home around 1 am every night so I thought I need to have the most lumens I could find. I soon realized that I didn't need to have 150+ lumens to walk to my car at work, from my car to my front door or for an emergency on the side of the road. Things I have to come to value in a light now is build quality, runtime, user interface, and customer service. For a small light that I carry everyday I like to have the option of a bezel up clip so I can clip it to my hat for hands free use. Awake up call for me as a new flashlight user was one night coming home from work I heard this really strange sound coming from my back tire so get out and fire up my light with it's 180 lumen drop-in to take a look at my tire and was blinded by the light. I thought well this isn't very useful. I have since come to love and value carrying my E1L.


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## brucec (Mar 9, 2009)

My priorities are:

1st mode: 60lumen +/- 20lumen
2nd mode: ~10lumen
3rd mode: >100lumen
I don't really like lights with more than 3 modes.

While I agree that brightness isn't everything, I would expect a 3 or more mode light to have a rather bright max setting if it already has med and low modes. Bright max is not as important for 2-mode or 1-mode lights but it depends on the usefulness of the beams on each mode.


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## sORe-EyEz (Mar 9, 2009)

i agree with Carrot on this.

in order of piriority:
1) quality of the host (reliable, weatherproof)
2) quality of the beam (being as artifact free as possible)
3) portablility (lights that are not with me are as good as AC/DC lights)

but i do not think many manufacturers agree with me. as with digital cameras, more pixels sells, so is the case with lights, its lumens, lumens & more lumens.:thumbsdow


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## sORe-EyEz (Mar 9, 2009)

american lockpicker said:


> *"Brightness Isn't Everything" *that should be Maglite Solitaires motto...


 
it should be. when the Solitaires come with decent LEDs that puts out a beam similiar to the Gerber IU with at least 2 days of nearly constant output & toughened glass windows. i do not know of any replacements for it... :candle:


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## JamisonM (Mar 9, 2009)

While this is true, technically, if you're carrying a sun around in your pocket, everything else goes out the window. But yeah, it ain't everything. A good light is everything coming together and not one or two features.


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## EngrPaul (Mar 9, 2009)

How could you post such a thing at a place called "candlepower forums".


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## Egsise (Mar 9, 2009)

Versatility is everything.
Low med high pocketable dunkable etc.


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## LightJaguar (Mar 9, 2009)

I agree with the statement that "brightness is not everything" but some people take that to an extreme. I mean all the people that always complain that a light does not have a .0000000000001 lumen setting are kind of interesting. The other night I could not find my flashlight in the middle of the night and I did not feel like turning the lights on to look for it. I wanted to get something from my car which was parked out on the street. 
The moon was out and there was some light out there. I decided that I could do with natural light and took a walk outside. I was about halfway to my car when I felt something squishy underneath my shoe. I was like that does not feel right. I knew what it was but I calmly kept on walking to my car, grabbed a flashlight that I keep in there and turned it on. My worst fears were confirmed when I saw that my shoe was full of dog huh poo. 
I was like beep, beeping dogs and man I really wish I had my flashlight and damn how do those interesting guys from CPF walk around in the middle of the night with .0000000000001 lumen. 
I also recently took a trip deep into Mexico and once again I was glad that I brought a really bright flashlight along. Forget night vision preservation specially when cars are zooming by with their headlights on. The worst thing is that many streets are not lit or even paved. I even saw a manhole cover that was missing with a big hole right along the road.


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## GreySave (Mar 9, 2009)

<< If a light is expensive, and it is not maximum brightness, is it worth it? Why or why not? >>

It is absolutely worth it, IF it suits the needs of the user. Value is a subjective item. What is of value to me may not be of value to others. The Kroma is a good example. Many people probably see it as an underpowered yet overly expensive light. To me it is an excellent light as I value a well designed low powered performer. I would even consider it a "tactical" light strictly because it delivers excellent beams at a low level, whether it is for stealthy moves around the house or the battlefield. 

Yet I am selling my A2 to a Friend, not because I do not like it, but because it sees infrequent use because I have other lights that suit my needs better. Please hold the "How can you do that" e-mails <g>. 

Everything about flashlights, from grip design to size to color rendering to output to reliability are all subjective items. How each of us views any given light is what makes it of high or low value. Brightness is but one part of the equation.


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## Phaserburn (Mar 9, 2009)

My criteria:

1. Body shape/design/build quality - includes cell type & quantities
2. Beam shape/quality
3. UI
4. Circuit quality - I like efficient circuits and flat regulation. However, flat reg isn't always what I look for, depending on the intended use. For example, I think flat reg in a lantern is undesireable.
5. Output levels/tint
6. Jessica Simpson


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## Centropolis (Mar 9, 2009)

EngrPaul said:


> How could you post such a thing at a place called "candlepower forums".


 
Yeah come to think about it, there should be a subforum for candles. You know where people talk about the high quality candles...the brightest candles, longest runtime candles, and candle mods. 

Back to the original topic, I also use more of my lower output lights more often. My Fenix E01 and E1E are used more often nowadays. E1E is my EDC right now and I was carrying a Leatherman S2. S2 would be what I would carry if I want an LED.

I think the UI is important to me. I need something simple. Don't ask me to reprogram my LF2X because I wouldn't know how to do it unless I read the manual again.


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## american lockpicker (Mar 9, 2009)

My criteria:

American made

Black

Bright

Long runtime is nice but not as important as brightness.

Also I like big lights as they are harder to misplace.


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## GreyShark (Mar 9, 2009)

Brightness is only one attribute and any tool's attributes should be tailored to their specific use but I will say that it's a lot easier to make a bright light dimmer than make a dim light brighter. I can always use the spill of a brighter light or diffuse the beam somehow if I need less light but only have a very bright light with me. On the other hand if I only have a very dim light but need a bright one I'm kind of stuck. All else being equal I'll go for brighter.


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## csshih (Mar 9, 2009)

I've always wanted 1 uber super blinding bright light, but that's my second priority.
right now, indeed, I just want a highly variable light.. but I cant afford any.


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## NonSenCe (Mar 9, 2009)

my vote: brightness never was the 1.

it comes somewhere after user friendlyness, effiency and "bang for buck" and their sub-criterias..

one light cannot do everything. best ones can do alot of the tasks adequately and some tasks well. just choose the type of light that suits the task at hand the best. 

and ignorance sometimes is a bliss. you really could manage with minimag or just a candle if you only never had seen anything better. 
if you have, well.. you might never be completely satisfied of what you have. 



*and you guys can share jessica simpson if i get the rest


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## brighterisbetter (Mar 9, 2009)

carrot said:


> That lumens is not the only measure of worth of a flashlight?


As a flashaholic 'newbie', I was primarily concerned with brightness to "wow my friends", but those days are long gone. Of course though, every true flashaholic should have at least one flashlight for every categorical quality (ie. bright, long-runtime, small, big, etc.) in their arsenal lineup. 

This poll pretty much illustrates what the majority of CPF'ers deem worthy attributes of their lights: What for you is the top non-negotiable when choosing and EDC light?


For me, the ABSOLUTE must have of any light is Reliability.


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## Phaserburn (Mar 9, 2009)

NonSenCe said:


> *and you guys can share jessica simpson if i get the rest


 
ewwww!

:sick2:


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## Crenshaw (Mar 9, 2009)

hmmm, for me a light, regardless of brand, whatever, has to do at least ONE thing VERY well
it either has to

-Run for an insane amount of time, never mind the lumens.
or - be super insanely bright
or - Throw insanely well
or - Have really nice tint. 
or - have a useful "theater" low

so far, the closest ive come to a perfect light is my Nitecore Ex10 and Milky L1cx2. The Nitecore has good levels, is relatively bright when you need it, and can go low...and most importantly....has awsome tint! once i switched it out for a Q3 5A. I used it very little before changing the Emittor. I had a nitecore extreme, that for all intents and purposes was a good light, but i couldnt stand the tint.

Crenshaw


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## Oddjob (Mar 9, 2009)

When I first joined, it was brightness that really got me hooked but nowadays it is not a deciding factor for me. I just bought a McGizmo/Arc Sapphire and it will probably be somewhere between 5 to 7 lumens. I like my lights to be durable, reliable and cool looking with a good UI. It really depends on what you use your light for. Over the last three years I have learned what I like and what I find useful for my needs and uber brightness is just not necessary for me. I find 80 to 100 lumens is the max I need and day to day I use about 10 lumens or less for almost everything.


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## NotSoBrightBob (Mar 9, 2009)

Posting as a newbie I started my collection not looking for the brightest but for the great beam quality. Coming from the Maglite generation I always knew there was something wrong with that beam with all the holes and dark circles in it

Well I spent $70 on my first Surefire, a G2 incan, yes a G2! they saw me coming when I turned on that torch and said "WOW" that was what I had been looking for, that seductive smooth beam of a Surefire.

Finding CPF has really opened my eyes and wallet to so many lights that have what I consider a good beam, now granted I have not gotten into the whole warm, bright tint color stuff yet but give me time.

After spending a bunch of money I started going after the brightest and learned my budget will never get there. My quest for the brightness was solved by my aquisition of an M6. I know that is not anywhere close to brightest out there but after seeing it and not being impressed as I expected I have now moved on to ease of use and pocketability (word check)

Next it was I couldn't figure out why anyone would want a multi level light. I find some UI's annoyingly hard for my feeble brain to comprehend but after finding a UI that made sense to me now I can't imagine carrying a light without multi modes. The other shopping factor that I'm hooked on now, as a casual user is how easy is the torch to pocket carry. Clip design and clip placement. I can't for the life of me figure out why the manufacturers put clips half way down the length of the light and so much of the light sticks out of my pocket.

Well I have found the designs that work for me and that is what I'm collecting now, torches I can comfortably carry every day. 

I don't use a light enough for run time to really matter to me.

Bob


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## Centropolis (Mar 9, 2009)

brighterisbetter said:


> As a flashaholic 'newbie', I was primarily concerned with brightness to "wow my friends", but those days are long gone.


 
Yeah, to wow your non-flashaholic friends, you need a bright light. 

Imagine what kind of reaction you would get if you say..."look how low my light output is and no flickering!"


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## firefly99 (Mar 9, 2009)

325addict said:


> it isn't indeed. Ever tried to read numbers on integrated circuits, transistors etc with a C3 Centurion? WHOOW!! Totally "blinded by the light"
> 
> Much better here is an L1 Lumamax in the first stage.



Totally agreed with TS. 

I did something similar. Blind myself while trying to read serial numbers of some electronic boxes with my E2D, years ago.

An enlighten person is someone who realise a dim light may be more practical in some cases than a bright light. When buying a flashlight, brightness is just one of the factor for considersation. A true flashaholic is someone who understand the difference between various light technologies and know how to use the right tools for the right jobs. I understand at some stage of our hobby, we tend to concentrate more a particular aspect eg. LED or HID. I think it is foolish to make comment such as "incan is dead".


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## Black Rose (Mar 9, 2009)

NotSoBrightBob said:


> Well I spent $70 on my first Surefire, a G2 incan, yes a G2!


If you bought that recently, it looks like you paid the G2L price for a G2 incan.

G2 incan sells for $39 US.


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## NotSoBrightBob (Mar 9, 2009)

Black Rose said:


> If you bought that recently, it looks like you paid the G2L price for a G2 incan.
> 
> G2 incan sells for $39 US.


 
I wish it was that simple, I bought it a couple years ago and I learned later MSRP was about $49 bucks at the time. I made the mistake of telling the gun show dealer how much I was impressed with it.

He took me pretty bad.


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## BlueBeam22 (Mar 9, 2009)

carrot said:


> It isn't.
> 
> Discuss.


 
I agree.

Throw is a much more important factor of any light for me than brightness. Beam quality and versatility of a light is also very important to me, which is where I feel my Coast LED Lenser 4W 83 lumen 3xAAA is very good in as well as being an extreme thrower which is why I like to EDC it. 

I would always choose my Dorcy 220 lumen over any other larger 500+ lumen LED light that didn't throw as well. I am curious as to who else prefers throw over brightness/overall output?


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## Benson (Mar 9, 2009)

Centropolis said:


> Yeah, to wow your non-flashaholic friends, you need a bright light.
> 
> Imagine what kind of reaction you would get if you say..."look how low my light output is and no flickering!"


muggle: "Hey, my light can do that!"
<muggle pulls out a Solitaire with an 80% used-up alkaline, and indeed matches you lumen-for-lumen, in sick orange>


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## 325addict (Mar 9, 2009)

and, did you ever turn on a C3 or something like it, in the middle of the night, to see what time it is? Your eyes are SOOO adapted to darkness then..... you only see all kinds of colors in front of your eyes :mecry:

Even a 2AAA maglite is too bright then.

I tried an E01 Fenix, this just is bearable. Preferable, less. But.... what flashlight does LESS than an E01? Yesssss.... a Solitaire! 

So this one lies around near my bed 

@ firefly99: I'm already looking at an E1L. This one has a very nice low with only 3 Lumens, and a GRRRRREAT runtime indeed! 48 hours on low, and still 8,5 hours on the high setting of 45 Lumens. This really is TOP-usability. Thank you, Surefire, for making such a light.... eventually I'll own it.
Also, incans are not dead. Not even near-dead for me! In fact, most flashlights I buy are of that species. LEDs still don't give the satisfaction I find in good incans. Next buy will be an E1e or an A2...


Timmo.


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## PetaBread (Mar 9, 2009)

LightJaguar said:


> I mean all the people that always complain that a light does not have a .0000000000001 lumen setting are kind of interesting.


 

If there really is a light with a setting like that I'd buy it. 


Holla


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## xcel730 (Mar 9, 2009)

Just like many who started their journey towards flashaholism, I wanted to buy the brightest and cheapest light out there. I would woo and wow my friends with them. As I became more englighten, I stopped caring as much. I'm in the city, I rarely need more than 100+ lumens anyway. Over the past year, I've been buying more reliable and nicer lights. When I show them to my friends, they're like, "that's it"? This thing is not even bright.


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## kramer5150 (Mar 9, 2009)

It depends on preferences of the individual. For some users lumen output takes precedence over ALL else. Others will value it less, and for them durability, run time, beam quality, tint...etc... will be the most important factor.

For me, it boils down to the application. There are instances where 1L is perfect, and other scenarios where nothing short of having the sun on my EDC belt will suffice.


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## kramer5150 (Mar 9, 2009)

325addict said:


> I tried an E01 Fenix, this just is bearable. Preferable, less. But.... what flashlight does LESS than an E01? Yesssss.... a Solitaire!
> 
> So this one lies around near my bed



YES!!! the MM solitaire is perfect for my night adapted vision. Use some scotch tape to flood out the beam and its GREAT for night adapted vision. Its orange-incan tint is super easy on night dilated eyes, and its ~2 Lumens is very practical as a midnight bathroom runner. I find the 6L output from my Fenix E0 to be excessive so the MM solitaire is my preference.

My 4 Y/O daughter got tired of Daddy borrowing her pink one so I picked up a black one from Home depot.

I just wish it had better run time

I was playing around with my cousins Brinkman and IMHO its a VERY serviceable little incan, in the 2-3L range.





















I wish Fenix made a red E01.


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## Big_Ed (Mar 9, 2009)

I think flashlights are a lot like cars. Sure, a fast car wows you, but is it reliable? Versatile? Durable? Reasonably priced? Good on fuel? The same questions can be asked about flashlights. Usually, as with cars, flashlights that score a "B" in every category, are better in the long run and are more useful than ones that might score an "A" in one or two categories, and poorly in others.


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## rockz4532 (Mar 9, 2009)

I can't even open my eyes if its dark in my room, im trying to find something, and I accidentally leave my P2D on turbo mode...


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## Kiessling (Mar 9, 2009)

Brightness was everything when we didn't have it some years back in the pre-Cree era. Or it was very important at least. Now that we have "blinding bright palm sized" we can focus on other, often more important factors more freely.
bernie


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## Riddick (Mar 9, 2009)

yup, while I carry my L1 cree as my edc I still grab my 1.1 lumen older L1 to back her up.

I freak'in love that 1.1 L1 probably one of the greatest production lights ever made

Wonder what Cave Dave and all the other cavers think of that light:wave:


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## cave dave (Mar 9, 2009)

Kiessling said:


> Brightness was everything when we didn't have it some years back in the pre-Cree era. Or it was very important at least. Now that we have "blinding bright palm sized" we can focus on other, often more important factors more freely.
> bernie



While I agree with you I think we might be in the minority. It might be just me, you and McGizmo. 

I think once LED's passed up Incandescents then interest in throwers and barn burners LED's actually increased not decreased. I find it amusing that many of us turned to LED for increased efficiency and high reliability but then we want to use them in ways that lower their efficiency and reliability. :thinking:

My main desire is a light that suits the task I want to use it for. I have no interest in throwers 99% of the time. I can't even figure out what people actually use em for. I want to hike a trail, set up a tent, cook dinner and go caving and be prepared for power outages. That's about it. I've stopped spotting deer in my yard as they didn't much care for it and avoid my place now. 

Recently I tried to use my LF5XT for hiking a trail at night and the deep reflector with a small spill diameter made it virtually unusable for that purpose. If you shined it down the trail so you could see turns and trail markers you couldn't see the ground in front of your feet. If you shined it at your feet it was way bright and you couldn't see the trail ahead. The Zebralight has the opposite effect you can see the area at your feet great but you can't navigate the trail with it. The two combined were fantastic! I want that all in one LED light!


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## cave dave (Mar 9, 2009)

Riddick said:


> I freak'in love that 1.1 L1 probably one of the greatest production lights ever made
> 
> Wonder what Cave Dave and all the other cavers think of that light:wave:



Wow, that was interesting timing. I was just posting the above when you posted yours. Just missed ya. 

I don't have an L1. With the extra length the L1 has better hand feel than the E1e doesn't it?

FYI though. I have done the entire 2nd half of a cave trip on my Stenlight on its lowest setting. Around 5lm (0.1 watt power consumption) of modified floody light. I did not do this on purpose. I was sitting in the dark for about 40 minutes waiting for the group to get down a tricky repel so my eyes got very dark accustomed. I was also in the lead so didn't have anybody blinding me. It just never occurred for me to crank up the light because I could see plenty well. I didn't realize I was on the lowest setting till I was outside and went to turn the light off.


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## DucS2R (Mar 9, 2009)

I used to love to go hiking at night in the High Sierra by starlight only. Now I prefer the lowest level light I can use for hiking at night, ditto for astronomy (red being best) to preserve night vision. But a bright light is very useful too, so I prefer multi-level lights. My favorites are my LS 20 and my newest, an Ra twisty 85tr with the low red setting.

And I must admit, I bought one of those Surefire 10X Dominators years ago--in fact I had one on order for a year while they first worked out problems with the bulb before the initial release. I love it when I fish at night alone on the beach (Cape Hatteras), it is great to be able to light up a couple miles of beach to see what is sneaking up on you!

T.


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## Lightcrazycanuck (Mar 9, 2009)

Just curious what people used for thousands of years before the invention of the flashlight.


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## PetaBread (Mar 9, 2009)

Lightcrazycanuck said:


> Just curious what people used for thousands of years before the invention of the flashlight.


 
:candle: :thinking:


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## EngrPaul (Mar 9, 2009)

Lightcrazycanuck said:


> Just curious what people used for thousands of years before the invention of the flashlight.


 
:sleepy:


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## Lightcrazycanuck (Mar 9, 2009)

My point exactly.

Candle power.:twothumbs:twothumbs

How many lumens does a candle have?


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## brucec (Mar 9, 2009)

325addict said:


> and, did you ever turn on a C3 or something like it, in the middle of the night, to see what time it is?


 
:laughing: Um, no, never tried that... My wife would probably roll out of bed thinking it was high noon.


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## EngrPaul (Mar 9, 2009)

Fireflies in a jar!


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## Lightcrazycanuck (Mar 9, 2009)

:laughing:


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## brucec (Mar 9, 2009)

EngrPaul said:


> Fireflies in a jar!


 
Tried that. Emitter lifetime is an issue.


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## Sgt. LED (Mar 9, 2009)

Every try to charge their batteries?! 
They just pop really loud and burst into flames. :shakehead Maybe a bug zapper isn't the right way to charge them?:shrug:


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## Lightcrazycanuck (Mar 9, 2009)

I did not know they were rechargable.


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## fireboltr (Mar 9, 2009)

Fireflys are rechargable....

They are one of those shake light thingies.....

They go dim, you shake the jar they light back up, but....dont shake to hard!!!!


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## Lightcrazycanuck (Mar 10, 2009)

fireboltr said:


> Fireflys are rechargable....
> 
> They are one of those shake light thingies.....
> 
> They go dim, you shake the jar they light back up, but....dont shake to hard!!!!


 
I'd like to see you EDC that in your front pocket.


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## Black Rose (Mar 10, 2009)

Lightcrazycanuck said:


> I'd like to see you EDC that in your front pocket.


Cargo pants


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## Kestrel (Mar 10, 2009)

And at the grave risk of wearing out a previously-funny joke, I'd like to see what Milky could do with a jar of them...


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## metlarules (Mar 10, 2009)

I was just playing around outside tonight with my Gerber Infinity Ultra.
This light is quickly becoming one of my favorites.It puts out enough light for 80% of the task that I use a flashlight for.It's reasonably priced for what it is.Simple UI(on/off). From what I gathered from this forum it's pretty darn reliable too.


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## dudemar (Mar 10, 2009)

Brightness certainly isn't everything. I think waaaaay too many folks get caught up with lumen numbers. Not the build quality, reflector quality, runtime or throw.

I guess it's kinda similar to cars and horsepower.


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## Crenshaw (Mar 10, 2009)

Kestrel said:


> And at the grave risk of wearing out a previously-funny joke, I'd like to see what Milky could do with a jar of them...



he would pour some Bailey's in there,and add an acorn, and this combination will increase the Brightness of the Fireflies by about 2 fold, but because youre driving them near their limit, they wont last as long. 

:tinfoil:

Crenshaw


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## brucec (Mar 10, 2009)

Sgt. LED said:


> Every try to charge their batteries?!
> They just pop really loud and burst into flames. :shakehead Maybe a bug zapper isn't the right way to charge them?:shrug:


 
Venting with flames? :thinking: They must be using some kind of Li-ion chemistry without a protection circuit. OK, I'll stop now...


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## DHart (Mar 10, 2009)

That's why we like to have so many different lights.

If I had to use just one light for inside around the house at night and outdoors on the acreage, the Liteflux LF3XT would be the one. Thus, I have really come to appreciate the value of such a versatile, simple, wide range light which has a luscious soft beam, a bright hot spot, and a bright and very useable spill, like the LF3XT. This light is not my brightest, not my throwiest, not my floodiest, but what a beautiful and useable beam it has and such a wide range of brightness. No, brightness isn't everything. But a versatile output range, a nice UI, and a great beam will get you close.


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## Zeruel (Mar 10, 2009)

DHart said:


>



I'm soooo tempted to dehorn mine too.... :naughty:


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## firefly99 (Mar 10, 2009)

325addict said:


> @ firefly99: I'm already looking at an E1L. This one has a very nice low with only 3 Lumens, and a GRRRRREAT runtime indeed! 48 hours on low, and still 8,5 hours on the high setting of 45 Lumens. This really is TOP-usability. Thank you, Surefire, for making such a light.... eventually I'll own it.
> Also, incans are not dead. Not even near-dead for me! In fact, most flashlights I buy are of that species. LEDs still don't give the satisfaction I find in good incans. Next buy will be an E1e or an A2...
> 
> 
> Timmo.


hi 325addict, my previous post is about agreeing with carrot's statement and we had a similar experience (blinding ourselves trying to read small text). 

The last paragraph of my previous post is more for general audience. Glad you come to this hobby with an open mind.

If you get the old L1 which has a low beam of 1.1 lumen for 90hours.

Cheers


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## firefly99 (Mar 10, 2009)

Riddick said:


> I still grab my 1.1 lumen older L1......
> 
> I freak'in love that 1.1 L1 probably one of the greatest production lights ever made



Agreed, this is one of the best light for emergency use because of the runtime of 90hours at 1.1lumens.

Pity they upgraded it.


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## Bimmerboy (Mar 10, 2009)

EngrPaul said:


> :sleepy:



LOL!... quite true.


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## Lightcrazycanuck (Mar 10, 2009)

carrot said:


> A recurring problem is that sometimes we mistake price for our expectations of brightness. If a light is expensive, and it is not maximum brightness, is it worth it? Why or why not? I always hear detractors talking about various lights being "way too dim for the price," and I will not name anything specific because I don't want the thread to go in that direction, but in terms of some of the very high end lights there are always going to be a few detractors who say that the light isn't worth it because it isn't cranking out 500 lumens OTF.
> 
> This really bothers me -- haven't we, as a group, learned more than that from experience? That lumens is not the only measure of worth of a flashlight?


 
The worth of a flashlight is when you turn it on it works.Period.

Everything else is a bonus.IMO.:thumbsup::thumbsup:


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## edc3 (Mar 10, 2009)

I still get a thrill from using a super-bright light, but I also get a thrill from using a low-lumen light that I know will run forever. I get a thrill from using just the right amount of light for the job at hand. I get the same satisfaction from using any great quality tool that is the right tool for the job. It makes as much sense to use an impact wrench to open a watch case as it does to use an M6 (I wish I had one) to make a late night toilet run.

Love this thread. :twothumbs


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## saabgoblin (Mar 10, 2009)

Brightness isn't everything, until you need it, then it's everything.


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## xcel730 (Mar 10, 2009)

saabgoblin said:


> Brightness isn't everything, until you need it, then it's everything.


 
This reminds me of a saying, "Money is not the root of all evil. It's the lack of money that's the root of all evil."


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## DHart (Mar 10, 2009)

saabgoblin said:


> Brightness isn't everything, until you need it, then it's everything.



Yep... that's why we have so many wonderful lights at our disposal! 

*The right light for the task at hand is everything!*


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## divine (Mar 11, 2009)

LightJaguar said:


> I was like beep, beeping dogs and man I really wish I had my flashlight and damn how do those interesting guys from CPF walk around in the middle of the night with .0000000000001 lumen.


That's why I use a High CRI modded Novatac. Sometimes there is a little light pollution and I need a higher mode. 


EngrPaul said:


> Fireflies in a jar!


That's a light that is guaranteed not to work after you drop it one time. Maybe it needs a lanyard.


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## saabgoblin (Mar 11, 2009)

divine said:


> That's why I use a High CRI modded Novatac. Sometimes there is a little light pollution and I need a higher mode.
> 
> +1 On the light pollution factor. Our uses are so varied, white wall hunting excluded, that it is difficult to find the optimum brightness and beam profile for every situation and just because you and or I haven't found a use for a 500 Lumen light, it doesn't mean that a use doesn't exist. While I believe that up to 100 lumens in general is enough for most tasks, there are times, especially while on my friends farm that I want to spot that possible mountain lion that may be lurking off in the distance waiting to pounce on their sheep or Border Collies and in that situation, I would love a 500+ Lumen light.
> 
> Basically, the question is too subjective without a starting point of reference in lumens. Last weekend after quite a few beers, I decided to cut through the Presidio in San Francisco to get home and I wanted to take a shortcut through the woods where there was no path and my Peak 3Led Matterhorn 7-10Lumens? was okay but not enough but my pocket carribbean was much better at blazing a trail in my drunken but illuminated stupor so brighter is better in that case, especially when drinking copious amounts of Guinness.:drunk:


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## DHart (Mar 11, 2009)

saabgoblin said:


> I decided to cut through the Presidio in San Francisco to get home and I wanted to take a shortcut through the woods where there was no path



Great place and opportunity to enjoy the illumination of a great flashlight!


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## saabgoblin (Mar 11, 2009)

:thumbsup:


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## GarageBoy (Mar 11, 2009)

Brightness is not, efficiency is for me. I wanna make sure that convertor board/LED is making as much light for as long as it can til the battery is toast


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## crocodilo (Mar 11, 2009)

As I always say, it's not brightness but rather runtime that makes the difference between having light or not.

User interface is another major factor. This includes not only operation, but also size and handling characteristics, and those will dictate whether or not you'll be carrying and reaching for the the light. A cumbersome flashlight that doesn't fit comfortably in your pocket and hand, and takes some fumbling to activate as desired will simply not be used.

Quality and reliability have a lot to do with the use intended. If we're talking about a home-garage-shop light, they may not matter much. On the other hand, to hard users this may be the most important factor...

Beam quality and tint's importance are also very variable according to each user.


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## tebore (Mar 11, 2009)

To an extent maximum brightness is still important to me. 

Along with a high maximum brightness I MUST have multi-mode. 

It's not fun to play flashlight tag when the kids know you can hit all of them without having to point at them. It's good to know you can hit all of them to end the game when you get tired.


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## Owen (Mar 11, 2009)

My needs for a bright light are so few and far between, that I've gotten rid of all but one incan, and that one is rarely used. On the occasions I use it, none of my other lights would do, but like I said, it's rare. 
I keep one spare lamp, and one spare pair of 18650s for it. 

Thinking of building a new McCapsule for my Longbow Micra some time in the future. It would be used around the house at night, in the cab of my truck, and as a main light if I ever get to go camping again. 
The plan is for one of those heavily stippled Khatod flood reflectors, and a high CRI P4 running at 89mA. I hope it isn't too bright.


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## bluepilgrim (Mar 13, 2009)

There is reliablility, cost to feed it, pretty or neat, etc., but the number one consideration is that the light is suitability for whatever you are doing -- and that varies. 

For me, that usually means low light level and easy to get out of my poket; although I prefer using the Dorcy AAA (41-4234), I usually use my Dorcy AA (41-4239) since it more cost effective. I grab the little AAA Rayovac Keychain (BRSLEDKEY-BMF) when I'm taking food for the cats in the garage because it's got a chain attached which I can hold in my mouth. The little ones are easy to hold, even with something else in my hand, and Dorcy's push button in back make it easy to flash on for a moment. 

Yet, when I want LIGHT then the bright ones are needed -- that's when there's something going down outside and I go to see what -- and it better work then, without having to fiddle with it, too!. I'd rather carry several lights around, each for a purpose, than one I have to adjust -- and be in the dark if it didn't work or I dropped it. (Yeah -- I have a cellar full of different tools too, with many special purpose ones.) The most important accessory is a sweatshirt with deep pockets. 

Cost is important for me, but run time is less so because I have no problem with carrying a few extra cells with me or having them around (I'd have to reload a gun or camera too.) 

One last important feature of any light is that's it's shiny new so I'm not tired playing with it! :twothumbs


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## MarNav1 (Mar 13, 2009)

Been using an A19 with a Cree GDuP. At night 99% of the time I use the 1st two levels, rarely use high.


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## AMD64Blondie (Mar 13, 2009)

Even if my Mag85 was working (the batteries are stuck inside) I would still be nervous using it around my new downtown Portland,OR apartment. Far too bright for walking in downtown Portland.


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## divine (Mar 13, 2009)

The switch comes out the front of a Mag pretty easy with just pulling the switch cover off and loosening one allen screw. After you do that, the mag body is just a metal tube. Should be fairly easy to get the batteries out.

You can search on here or google for how to disassemble a mag.


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## AMD64Blondie (Mar 13, 2009)

Thanks for the info. But back on topic,I've seen my way out of a partial power outage(only part of Portland State's campus was out) at work with nothing more than my trusty Arc AA. 3.3 lumens seems insanely bright when you're in complete darkness.


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## Sub_Umbra (Mar 13, 2009)

"Re: Brightness Isn't Everything"

Agreed. IMO the real problem is that brightness IS *NEARLY* EVERYTHING when it comes to marketing lights to the masses. In the real world relatively few who buy flashlights are interested in anything but replacing the dark with something close to what they have the most experience with -- *the floody, bright, white from the sun.* For the masses there are no finer points to light -- they either have it or they don't. If they don't have it they just want their light to be bright, that's all. They are only interested in *replacing the dark.* Nothing else is important to them.

That's fine. There's nothing wrong with that. My problem with it is that the manufacturers have to cater to them because they are such a huge group. Going against that group is financially risky.

I have probably spent at least 300 times as much time looking for and researching Very Dim lights than I have spent looking for all other genres combined. Sometimes I think that it's amazing that there are any dim lights out there for sale at all.

Note: when I say dim I probably mean something that is incomprehensibly dim to most. I mean something dimmer than the old HDS EDCs could even be adjusted to at their lowest possible setting. I mean something along the lines of the lower settings of Photon Freedoms and the Rigel MIL Starlights. These lights sell (thankfully) but they are part of a *very small group* of lights whose output may be adjusted to such a low level. Most who have not owned and experimented with them firsthand at their lower output levels will fail to grasp what they are capable of.


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## Benson (Mar 13, 2009)

divine said:


> The switch comes out the front of a Mag pretty easy with just pulling the switch cover off and loosening one allen screw. After you do that, the mag body is just a metal tube. Should be fairly easy to get the batteries out.


Old Mags are that way, but new ones prefer to have the switch removed from the bottom. To remove it from the top of a new one, you'll have to remove a retaining clip. (No big deal, but unless the batteries are _really_ stuck good, it's easier to loosen the screw and (make sure the switch is clicked in) push the switch and batteries out the bottom -- PVC pipe and hammer will work...)


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## brucec (Mar 13, 2009)

While max brightness isn't everything, I'll take 100lumens over 0.1lumens any day of the week. If I need a light that low, I'll just get a luce de notte and be done with it for the next 20 years or longer.


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## vali (Mar 13, 2009)

I think brightness isn't everytingh too. For me 100 lm is just the brightest I will need in *normal* conditions. Yes, sometimes you will end needing needing more, but the probability is very low. (note I said *need*, not _want_).

I found myself using the lower levels of my (few) lights almos allways and my biggest concern is the runtime, even if I dont plan to use the light more than a few seconds. I am too lazy to be changing batteries too often. For me the main thing I look for in a light is efficiency. 

There is a light where the "brightness is everything" vs "efficiency is better" are exemplified: The Regalight EDC. With the old driver (faults aside) that light was very bright as advertised, but lots of ppl were talking about debacle, fiasco, etc when they changed it (to better IMHO). Yes, its not the promised one, but Im sure if they didnt advertised anything and the only model was the last one this light would be highly considered.


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## John_Galt (Mar 13, 2009)

I'll be the first one to admit that i have neither very bright, nor very dim lights (Mini Mag LED=brightest, Photon Micro w/CR2032=dimmest). But I find that, often times, after I come back from a camping trip (before which I put a new set of batteries in my Aurora), that i am more likely to just turn my Aurora on high, and put it under my bed, and reach for my keys, where I have my Photon Micro light. For several hours at a time, I will read with that, over my headlamp. Neat bonus is, that after I'm done reading, I can turn off my light, and still see everything clearly. I bought my Photon about two years ago as an EDC light, and have only changed that battery once (after it accidentally went into the washer). 

I've also found that while at summer camp, if I'm out on a trail far away from all the other camps, that I like turning off my headlamp and using my Photon to illuminate the trail (with no real way to test the output, I'd guestimate it puts out about 2 lumens:candle. It's also much more fun to be able to go back into camp with nobody noticing, until you walk up behind them.


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## Well-Lit (Mar 13, 2009)

Last month, just for the heck of it, I quit using everything over 100 lumens (incans & LED's) and pulled out an old "dinosaur" from 2006...an HDS/EDC U60GT. Put in a fresh S/F batt and used it for my only light source. 

Just like back then, it served me well. I survived just fine. Like the title says...brightness isn't everything..I have since gone back to using my Malkoff's, NT's, LF incans, etc.. 

Oh yeah....runtime..I almost forgot. The EDC is still on my nightstand. I'll put it away when the batt dies............maybe

Best Regards:
Bob


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## sORe-EyEz (Mar 14, 2009)

when a light fails to light up (not counting dead batteries), quality is everything. :nana:


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## divine (Mar 14, 2009)

I don't use a high setting often, but the ability to have a very high output if I need it is a requirement for one of my EDC's. I've been carrying a light with a very high output (C2H or NEX) plus one that will run on its max setting for an hour (RA). I think these two lights cover what I need and what I might need very well.

A pretty low low on my keys (MJP Extreme III) is very very useful.


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## EngrPaul (Mar 21, 2009)

Lightcrazycanuck said:


> Just curious what people used for thousands of years before the invention of the flashlight.


 
I think certain members of the community were required to carry a large mirror, which turned out to be very tiring.


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## woodrow (Mar 22, 2009)

Part of the problem though is that many of the dimmer led lights are using older...less efficient and less eye friendly leds. I would love to have a Kroma for example. I think it is one of the few led lights SF has made that impress me as much as their older M series lights that I loved. But, I would want it to have a R2 led with a good tint. Not just because I would want it to be brighter on max...which I would... but because I am really loving the slightly warmer led tints we are seeing these days. 

So for me, brightness is still very important... but I also want a nice creamy white beam to come out of an exceptionally made flashlight with a wonderful UI.


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## SureAddicted (Mar 22, 2009)

carrot said:


> It isn't.
> 
> Discuss.



For me it is. I mainly use my lights for work and having a bright light is a must. Going into empty buildings in the dark, room clearing, cqb etc requires a bright light, I'd never consider using a keychain light for them tasks. The same goes for when I'm at home, for bump in the night, or hearing suspicious sounds, again I'm going to reach for a bright light. My work lights have one output, yep you guessed it. As for quality my work lights are SF's, so it's a non issue. As for runtime again it's a non issue for me, I dont need my lights to last a gazillion hrs, as I'm always equipped with extra cells. 
So for me, brightness is everything.


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## litework (Mar 22, 2009)

cave dave said:


> My main desire is a light that suits the task I want to use it for. I have no interest in throwers 99% of the time. I can't even figure out what people actually use em for.


 
Here's one use:
I can inspect acres of fencing from the comfort of my Kubota with my DBS thrower. I'd have to do a lot more walking with no value added to the process by using a lesser light. 

I always carry two lights. I usually have a single cell, multimode light in my pocket, and a "mission specific" light to compliment it. When hiking and camping, I'll carry a third light in my pack. All the lights I use are capable of 80+lumens on high. The brightness of the light is very important to me, but it isn't everything. I like lights that are reliable, bright and reasonable to carry. If a light fails in any of those catergories, it will almost certainly become a shelf queen.


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## cnjl3 (Mar 22, 2009)

"Brightness" for me - was what it was all about when I joined this forum a few years ago. But now I have come to view lights as tools. One tool will not do every job you can think of. So for me that means multiple lights which makes this hobby 'FUN.'
:devil:


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## Tec40 (Mar 22, 2009)

I agree cnjl3. My favorite lights are not the brightest lights on the market. I view my lights as tools as well,and use them at my job daliy. Runtime and color have become more important to me. My Princeton Tec-40, SF E2e w/MN02 bulb,and the INOVA T-1 MP(2008 model) are the 3 lights I use the most. They are not the brightest lights,but they are bright enough for my job,and they are built like tanks,reliable,have that warm incan color which I prefer,and have'nt let me down yet. To me,that's most important.


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## carrot (Mar 22, 2009)

SureAddicted said:


> For me it is. I mainly use my lights for work and having a bright light is a must. Going into empty buildings in the dark, room clearing, cqb etc requires a bright light, I'd never consider using a keychain light for them tasks. The same goes for when I'm at home, for bump in the night, or hearing suspicious sounds, again I'm going to reach for a bright light. My work lights have one output, yep you guessed it. As for quality my work lights are SF's, so it's a non issue. As for runtime again it's a non issue for me, I dont need my lights to last a gazillion hrs, as I'm always equipped with extra cells.
> So for me, brightness is everything.


It sure isn't. You said yourself that you carry a Surefire and Surefires are no longer the brightest kids on the block. They sure are reliable though!


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## Swedpat (Mar 22, 2009)

This discussion is really interesting!

The more I have evolved in my "flashoholism" the more I have learned to appreciate the quality of lights, and the suitability for the specific purpose.
It's fun with very bright lights, and with lights who can throw far.

But one of my favourite lights actually is my Maglite 2D with Terralux Ministar1 dropin! It's dimmer than the standard crypton bulb, but the beam is more even illuminated. This configuration provides a very long runtime, and is very comfortable when I don't want to be too dazzled with dark adapted eyes, I like the cosy feeling of the beam.... 
Also the wide beam of the Maglite makes it very suitable for short distance use. A given light for power outages, in my opinion. 

Regards, Patric


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## jusval (Mar 22, 2009)

Always late to the party, but here goes.

Brightness isn't everything....... Nothing is everything.

Why is brightness the main topic of so many threads?

Well, why do we want the fastest car, the loudest stereo, the biggest house, etc....???? Same as the brightest flashlight.

For me, coming here knowing nothing (and I still don't know anything), brightness was a game, a WOW factor, but then I also found that brightness was a need for my job.

Seeing well at night while doing guard duty was a concern. Also a concern was that I've always been somewhat afraid of the dark. (Goes back to very early childhood and some bad things that happened in the darkness)...... So brightness was a goal to fullfill a need. 

Now I have found that the brightness I am looking for is really not totally achievable. The brightness I want is the Sun, daylight. That's when I feel safest and the real thing I need to do is to find a Day Job!

Birghtness also became part of the thought of making something myself, something to make me think and use up some of the dead time that exists since my forced retirement, so making crazy bright lights became another goal, which I have partially done. I still have one more that I really want to do, but for the most part bright does not mean as much as it used to for me. I can't achieve sunlight at night......

Quality? Run time? Warranties?, they all mean something different to everyone.

Sunlight is my friend, darkness is my enemy and brightness is my hope.....

Okay, I'm done being nutty.......


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## Juggernaut (Mar 22, 2009)

When I walk around during the day in my house I don’t close my shades and put sun glasses on because the sun is to bright, I have yet to see a flashlight as bright as the sun so I don’t find it necessary to use anything other then the absolute brightest thing on hand during the night. Night adapted vision is useless when you can eliminate the night:devil:! 

HOWEVER, I find many occasions when only a very dim light is neededoo:, not because I like dim “more practice output” but because a lot of times I don’t want to stick out like a sour thumb:eeksign:, I’m not sure if anyone else posted something similar to this but when your out in public “such as school” and someone needed some light, you don’t want to pull out your 100+ Lumen light and blast away, because then you have to explain yourself. Twice last week this happened to me. First my teacher and our class went into the lecture hall, it was completely dark inside so my teacher was stumbling to the front of the theater to get the lights and I had to stand there holding back the temptation to pull out my Proton Pro:sweat:, because I didn’t feel like having to answer a hundred “why do you have flashlight:green:“, and the dreaded “can I see that?” questions. But half way down my teacher pulled out a sickly blue coin cell light to guide his way so I didn’t feel bad. Next my Math teacher had all the lights turned off in class to use the over head projector, but then she couldn’t see the buttons on the remote. Being only a foot away I would have blinded her with my 114 Lumens so I bit my tongue:sweat:. I learned my lessen after that, no more will my over powered lights “even if it’s only a dull Proton in school” hinder me from helping others, I now carry a Lumens Factory Pen light, it’s 16 Lumens will not arouse questions at least. So yes, even a Lumen crazed individual such as my self can see the need for lower powered lights:thumbsup:.


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## gsxrac (Mar 22, 2009)

I will have to say I agree completly. After laying in the bed with my GF at a friends house last night for an hour or so (innocently burried in conversation of course) I turned my Novatac 120T on with the bezel pressed into the matress so as not to blind myself and then switched to the .3 lumen mode and shone it around the room, MAN was that thing bright! It really amazed me how useful that fraction of a lumen really was:candle:


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## :)> (Mar 22, 2009)

You guys who like low level, long running lights and got in on the Mako are gonna love it!

For most task lighting, low levels of light are perfect and the extra runtime is the biggest bonus.


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## SureAddicted (Mar 23, 2009)

carrot said:


> It sure isn't. You said yourself that you carry a Surefire and Surefires are no longer the brightest kids on the block. They sure are reliable though!



I disagree, with regards to Incans that is, without modding or sacrificing quality/reliability. A 9P/P91 combo is pretty bright in that form factor, same goes for an M6. Your right when it comes to LED's though. I use what's right for me, and that isnt always the latest kid on the block, something bright and whats suitable for the task at hand.


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## bluepilgrim (Mar 23, 2009)

If you look at the controls on a TV you note there is both brightness and contrast, and both need to be set properly for the best picture. If a light is too bright for the area that's like having the contrast set all the way up, which makes it harder to see anywhere but where the light is shining, and that includes after you turn the light off when you have knocked down night vision and your pupils are contracted. If you want to see in a dim area and you have only a bright light, shine it at the ceiling to give you a reasonable 'ambient' lighting without the glare.


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## Benson (Mar 23, 2009)

SureAddicted said:


> I disagree, with regards to Incans that is, without modding or sacrificing quality/reliability.


OK, but to my mind, "Brightness is everything, but those lights don't count because..." is the same as saying: "Brightness isn't everything; quality and reliability matter, too."; only difference is one statement lets you be more honest with yourself.


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## SureAddicted (Mar 23, 2009)

Benson said:


> OK, but to my mind, "Brightness is everything, but those lights don't count because..." is the same as saying: "Brightness isn't everything; quality and reliability matter, too."; only difference is one statement lets you be more honest with yourself.



Benson, what are you on about, seriously....what lights dont count? I use both Incan and LED for work, is that what you were referring to?


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## Benson (Mar 23, 2009)

SureAddicted said:


> Benson, what are you on about, seriously....what lights dont count? I use both Incan and LED for work, is that what you were referring to?


No, I'm referring to your claim that Surefires _are_ the brightest incans, because they can't be beaten "without modding or sacrificing quality/reliability." In short, qualifying your previous assertion that brightness is everything, by bringing in new factors to disqualify brighter lights.


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## SureAddicted (Mar 23, 2009)

Benson said:


> No, I'm referring to your claim that Surefires _are_ the brightest incans, because they can't be beaten "without modding or sacrificing quality/reliability." In short, qualifying your previous assertion that brightness is everything, by bringing in new factors to disqualify brighter lights.




If you want to argue with my opinion, then keep it to yourself as I'm not interested in hearing it, and respect my opinion like I respect yours.


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## Benson (Mar 23, 2009)

SureAddicted said:


> If you want to argue with my opinion, then keep it to yourself as I'm not interested in hearing it, and respect my opinion like I respect yours.


I'm respecting your opinion; I've only taken issue with your expression of it in statements that are (apparently irreconcilably) self-contradicting.

You started by making two statements:

That brightness is everything, for you.
That you use only SF.
But when statement 2 raised a question by carrot, because SFs are not the brightest lights available, you responded by claiming that they were the brightest lights, _discounting a whole class of lights, including some brighter ones_, for another reason.

This injection of another reason to discount brighter lights is inconsistent with statement 1, that brightness is everything.

I assumed that your _real_ opinion was that brightness is everything, but that lights below a certain quality standard don't count -- which is IMHO a self-deceptive way of stating that brightness and quality both matter. You took issue with my comment on that statement, which was the only way I could reconcile your earlier statements, so now they're left standing in complete contradiction.

I do not wish to argue with or disrespect _either_ of the contradictory opinions you've stated: that brightness is everything, or that brightness, reliability, and quality are all important. But I _would_ like to know which one _is_ your opinion?


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## SureAddicted (Mar 23, 2009)

Re-read my posts, I said they are bright in regards to incans, but he was right when it came to LED's. It's there in black and white, and I'm done going OT with you.


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## Egsise (Mar 24, 2009)

Incandescent?


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## kaichu dento (Mar 24, 2009)

Centropolis said:


> Yeah, to wow your non-flashaholic friends, you need a bright light.
> 
> Imagine what kind of reaction you would get if you say..."look how low my light output is and no flickering!"


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## BigBluefish (Mar 24, 2009)

carrot said:


> It isn't.
> 
> Discuss.


 
But darkness isn't anything.


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## kaichu dento (Mar 24, 2009)

BigBluefish said:


> But darkness isn't anything.


Depends on what you do with it and who you're with!


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## Zatoichi (Mar 24, 2009)

kaichu dento said:


> Depends on what you do with it and who you're with!



You mean like vampires or goths?


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## kaichu dento (Mar 24, 2009)

Zatoichi said:


> You mean like vampires or goths?


Of course that's what I meant!


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## brucec (Mar 24, 2009)

Zatoichi said:


> You mean like vampires or goths?


 
No, I'm sure he was referring to astronomy as we all know everything else is better with the lights on.


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## TITAN1833 (Mar 24, 2009)

Your'e right, try lighting up a small place under a sink with 1000 lumens :shakehead

It has been said here already but I agree lights are tools,so pick the right one for the job in hand.For instance you wouldn't use 1000 lumen+for checking a blown fuse and like wise you wouldn't use 0.07 lumen's in a search party out looking for missing flashaholics,who may have picked the wrong light to help them find their way home


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## carrot (Mar 24, 2009)

BigBluefish said:


> But darkness isn't anything.


Simply inverting what I said does not make for much of an interesting discussion point. Sorry.


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## TITAN1833 (Mar 24, 2009)

Pick your lumens now!

0.006 to 5000+ lumen's the choice is yours


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## gsxrac (Mar 24, 2009)

TITAN1833 said:


> Pick your lumens now!
> 
> 0.006 to 5000+ lumen's the choice is yours


 
Ok I want a 0.006-5000+ lumen light with the Titan interface :huh:


Now since im guessing you were thinking a more specific answer thenmy dream flashlight would be a 1 lumen low 40 lumen "medium" and about a 250 lumen high (and of course my lumens would be "Surefire lumens" I dont wanna be sold some overrated light :thumbsup

And if you meant to be even MORE specific then uhh... 40 lumens? yea that works


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## TITAN1833 (Mar 24, 2009)

gsxrac said:


> Ok I want a 0.006-5000+ lumen light with the Titan interface :huh:


Sorry your request is not allowed:ERROR 1102:SORRY  BTW that user name is being used :twothumbs


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## gsxrac (Mar 24, 2009)

Aww man. Well in my theorhetical dream world I carry around my 0.006-5000 lumen light every day!... And if fits in my shirt pocket comfortably  And who on earth is using that username!? :nana:


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## bluepilgrim (Mar 24, 2009)

I'll take 2000 lumens -- and a filter made from a piece of that black cape that will fall off the vampire after I hit with the 2,000. :nana:

.... IF it's the right color, of course, like a nice neutral white which will illuminate what I want to see instead of just 'shining on it'. One of the things I liked most about LEDs flashlights when I first got one was the white, even at a low level, instead of that sickly yellow from most incandescents which light up the target but where I still don't know what I'm looking at, especially with all the projected shadows and other artifacts. 

What I really want is not a light (well, not much, although they are still nifty and pretty), but to be able to see, and if I could see in the dark well enough I wouldn't need anything else. Just a brighter light, however, doesn't mean I can see better (that's why I wear sunglasses sometimes).


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## TITAN1833 (Mar 24, 2009)

gsxrac said:


> Aww man. Well in my theorhetical dream world I carry around my 0.006-5000 lumen light every day!... And if fits in my shirt pocket comfortably  And who on earth is using that username!? :nana:


I bet you do! is it hot? or warm to the touch 

Oh! And on the user name I was J/K :nana:


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## gsxrac (Mar 24, 2009)

TITAN1833 said:


> I bet you do! is it hot? or warm to the touch
> 
> Oh! And on the user name I was J/K :nana:


Your kidding right? I mean it runs for 4 hours continuous at 5,000lm and the best part is it only takes one primary Its almost cool to the touch


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## TITAN1833 (Mar 24, 2009)

gsxrac said:


> Your kidding right? I mean it runs for 4 hours continuous at 5,000lm and the best part is it only takes one primary Its almost cool to the touch




Great! sorted:devil:


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## gsxrac (Mar 24, 2009)

Now on a more back-down-to-earth note A few weeks ago in the snow storm I was out driving around pulling people out of ditch's and on the way back to my GF's the whole sky, road, woods and air turned this brilliant bright blue, I mean it just lit up EVERYTHING for about 45 seconds. I was told it was a tree hanging over a power line arc'ing. Now if we could harness that into a flashlight or some type of light orb...


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## chiphead (Mar 24, 2009)

I've found that when using an LED light in the rain a lot of that light is bounced back at you off the rain drops. I think I can say the same concerning fog conditions. But despite the output the Mark-2 eyeball can only take in so much. Now there's something that could use an up grade.

chiphead


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## TITAN1833 (Mar 24, 2009)

Ok I admit defeat, brightness is everything


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## EngrPaul (Mar 24, 2009)

Vision is everything. :nana:


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## TITAN1833 (Mar 24, 2009)

EngrPaul said:


> Vision is everything. :nana:


Everything?oh I see it now,your'e right


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## divine (Mar 24, 2009)

5000+ lumens for...  seconds of runtime. 

To me useful light is much more important than brightness, but if there is a light that can see something 200 feet away and I don't have it when I need to see something 200 feet away, then brightness is everything.

In my opinion this is why I need at least two EDC's. I also have a belt spares carrier for my two primary edc's. :huh:


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## gsxrac (Mar 24, 2009)

divine said:


> 5000+ lumens for...  seconds of runtime.
> 
> To me useful light is much more important than brightness, but if there is a light that can see something 200 feet away and I don't have it when I need to see something 200 feet away, then brightness is everything.
> 
> In my opinion this is why I need at least two EDC's. I also have a belt spares carrier for my two primary edc's. :huh:


I agree completly! I try to keep a good room light with a low mode and ive gotta have a pocket thrower on me too just in case!


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## StandardBattery (Mar 24, 2009)

"*Brightness Isn't Everything" *You wouldn't be saying that if our Sun was near death or just imploded. Technically speaking it's 50% with Darkness taking the other half. Frankly though, without darkness this forum would not exist, so I guess the truthfulness of this statement in my present reality is self evident. Check in my alternate reality for an alternate answer.


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## TITAN1833 (Mar 25, 2009)

divine said:


> 5000+ lumens for...  seconds of runtime.


That maybe the case with some,but with polarion you get 5000 lumen and 80 minutes runtime not bad if you need that much light for over a hour


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## bluepilgrim (Mar 26, 2009)

I ran across this article, below. I'm not quite sure how to relates this to brightness, beam pattern, and spill, but they would seem to be relevant in terms of what the brain will make of the visual information it gets. The visual system is extremely complex, and the eyes are just a small part of it, so I expect lights could be optimized not just for electronics and such, but presenting an image that's good for the brain to interpret. I've noticed, for instance, that some of the tight beam shots show an image clearly, but I'm not sure what I'm seeing because there's so little spill to create a context, or an indication of how far away the lighted area is. 



http://www.physorg.com/news157210633.html
*Visual attention: How the brain makes the most of the visible world*

March 25th, 2009
*The visual system has limited capacity and cannot process everything that falls onto the retina. Instead, the brain relies on attention to bring salient details into focus and filter out background clutter. Two recent studies by researchers at the Salk Institute for Biological Studies, one study employing computational modeling techniques and the other experimental techniques, have helped to unravel the mechanisms underlying attention.* 

[... more ...]


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## Oddjob (Mar 26, 2009)

I just bought a Mako off the BST and I got a McGizmo Sapphire last week. Never thought I would spend that much on low level lights.:thinking:


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## matrixshaman (Mar 26, 2009)

Brightness - or the option to have it IS everything - especially in a pocketable light ..... :nana:







HDS Mil. U60 / IMR16340 and optional 17670 tube - estimated 600-700 Lumens


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## bluepilgrim (Mar 26, 2009)

I got an email from Dorcy-direct last night. I just finished archiving the day's news and was still in a stat of shock -- a weak moment -- and I ordered their 220 lumen rechargable. It seems to use 4 2/3 AA nicads, and now I'm wondering about using nimh to extend the run time -- or thinking 'I'll bet you could fit a li-ion and a regulator in that space'. Regulated batteries -- I haven't heard anything about those yet, but they might be useful as more powerful chemistry comes out. In the meantime, I'll have an effective thrower, and time to wait for the next great thing. 

I'm also thinking about making up a big parabolic reflector to use with a standard compact fluorescent when I have line current or 12v lead-acid motorcycle or auto power and an inverter available. 1200 lumens from the '75 watt replacement' bulb using 20 watts: at 12 volts that would draw about 1 2/3 amps. Or get a 12 CFL bulb (like marine lighting might use). There is some nice 'bright new' technology around, and on the horizon, but everybody hasn't quite gotten their acts together yet for high performance flashlights. Years ago I hammered out a big, approximately parabolic, sheet aluminum reflector for a candle (about 12 lumens) -- I could read a book with it from 20 feet away. The trick is to put the light where you want it.


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## Federal LG (Mar 26, 2009)

carrot said:


> It isn't.
> 
> Discuss.



Agreed.
I think the best way is balance.

Balance between overall quality (machining, UI, internal parts) and efficiency (brightness, runtime and regulation).

IMHO, overall quality is a "must". But I prefer brightness, even if it compromises runtime.


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## Centropolis (Mar 26, 2009)

matrixshaman said:


> Brightness - or the option to have it IS everything - especially in a pocketable light ..... :nana:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
I always wanted to do something like that to my 120P. But what's stopping me is the amount of runtime that I'd get from something like that.

Have you done runtime tests on max for this light?


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## bluepilgrim (Mar 26, 2009)

Short but bright... just watch the after-image in your eyes. 

http://graflex.org/flash/technical.html

The General Electric #5 flashbulb was a staple of the press corps in the late flashbulb era. These bulbs are still readily found, warehoused in old camera stores, and can often be had for under $10/doz. When used with ISO100 B&W film, they give a guide number of about 200 at 1/100s shutter speed. Approximate 1,000,000 peak lumens, with 14,000-16,000 total lumen seconds output. For use in a 5" right-angle bayonet reflector, or a 7" medium base reflector with a screw-in adaptor. 

[...]

*General Electric Synchro-Flash #11*

A screw-base (also called Mazda Base or Edison Base) bulb, the about size of a 25-watt appliance light bulb. About one stop brighter than the #5. Approximate 2,400,000 peak lumens, with 18,000-22,000 total lumen seconds output. For use in a 7" medium base reflector.


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## DHart (Mar 26, 2009)

matrixshaman said:


> Brightness - or the option to have it IS everything - especially in a pocketable light ..... :nana:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



shaman.... that's freakin' cool! Will you tell us how that came about?


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## gsxrac (Mar 26, 2009)

matrixshaman said:


> Brightness - or the option to have it IS everything - especially in a pocketable light ..... :nana:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Ok youve got me convinced, now how do I get one of those


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## Black Rose (Mar 26, 2009)

matrixshaman said:


> Brightness - or the option to have it IS everything - especially in a pocketable light ..... :nana:
> 
> HDS Mil. U60 / IMR16340 and optional 17670 tube - estimated 600-700 Lumens


That little thing puts out 600 to 700 lumens? Holy crap.


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## matrixshaman (Mar 27, 2009)

Black Rose said:


> That little thing puts out 600 to 700 lumens? Holy crap.



Maybe even a bit more on a 17670. I haven't tried my 17670 tube on it yet. You have to use the new AW IMR chemistry batteries though for the 16340 to be safe as it's got a lot of current draw. It's a true pocket rocket. Take one Military version of the HDS Ultimate 60 and add one great modder ( CPF member darkzero ) = Brightness  It is by far the brightest LED light I have with a perfect donut hole free beam. 
Runtime? This isn't about runtime but if I need that I'll throw a few extra batteries in my pack. However it has up to 8 levels and 3 different User Interfaces. The lower levels will run just as long as other lights. I'm going the guess the lowest level I've seen in the 5 level mode is around 1 to 5 Lumens. It also has adjustable thermal protection that will greatly reduce output depending on what temperature it is set at (can also be disabled). I'll say it this way - that brightness may not be everything but in a quality mod like this it is a GREAT option.


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## TITAN1833 (Mar 27, 2009)

matrixshaman that's a nice set up you have there,do ya have any real life beam shots?


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## matrixshaman (Mar 27, 2009)

TITAN1833 said:


> matrixshaman that's a nice set up you have there,do ya have any real life beam shots?



Hi Titan, I'll try to get some in the next day or two. It's a wall of light but with the level of brightness it's brighter than the hot spot on most lights at a distance.


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## SilverCaper (Apr 18, 2009)

matrixshaman said:


> Hi Titan, I'll try to get some in the next day or two. It's a wall of light but with the level of brightness it's brighter than the hot spot on most lights at a distance.



matrixshaman, were you able to get the beam shots?


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## matrixshaman (Apr 18, 2009)

SilverCaper said:


> matrixshaman, were you able to get the beam shots?



Not yet - I've been working about 12 to 16 hours 7 days a week and the only time I'm on here is when I'm eating or too tired to work. Not much time for play that I wish I could be doing. But I plan on it some time in the future and plan to post a message thread with a complete review of sorts on this unique light. It is definitely one of the most thrilling lights I've got and I'm still wow'd at how it can light up such a huge area outside. I've really come to like the flood effect. In other lights in the past I've had that were very floody I didn't care that much for them as they were too dim except for close objects. Not a problem any more


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## gollum (Apr 19, 2009)

good one bluepilgrim...
good link.



bluepilgrim said:


> I ran across this article, below. I'm not quite sure how to relates this to brightness, beam pattern, and spill, but they would seem to be relevant in terms of what the brain will make of the visual information it gets. The visual system is extremely complex, and the eyes are just a small part of it, so I expect lights could be optimized not just for electronics and such, but presenting an image that's good for the brain to interpret. I've noticed, for instance, that some of the tight beam shots show an image clearly, but I'm not sure what I'm seeing because there's so little spill to create a context, or an indication of how far away the lighted area is.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Search (Apr 19, 2009)

I'll throw this little bit out there.

Being in the Reserve Program we had another training event this past Thursday. We went to the local high school for two reasons:

1) Building Clearing

2) Small emphasis on clearing the high school in case of an emergency

Finally got to test my brand new TK11 R2 in some tactical training and it changed how I have felt about brightness.

I had been wanting to carry a 60 - 100 lumen light like the 6PL or the Z2LED.

To make a long story short, I haven't followed this thread at all but I will throw this out there from a tactical point of mind.

From clearing a large library with the books on shelves on the walls but with tables, chairs, computers, desks, etc in the middle where I could see wall to wall to a series of classrooms and small connecting rooms, I never once hindered my ability to move or function with the lights off. Hallways and bath rooms.

In fact, it was nice being able to light up a whole room.

The TK11 R2 is rated at 240 lumens and has a very bright, tight hotspot, but it uses plenty of that 240 lumens to throw a lot of floody light off the sides.


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## 6speed (Apr 19, 2009)

New to the LED scene but can attest that I would rather use my Microstream than my EO1 to fix/repair anything. I used to work outside at night quite a bit and hated the weight/bulk of 2 D flashlights. The good little 2 AA I used was the Garrity G-tech with a lanyard. Best little $4.-- light I found and the lanyard meant I could just let it dangle from my wrist when doing tasks. In the winter the cold would eventually dull it but the new L-92 batteries solve that problem.
The 2AA Mag's were worthless to me, too slick.


I like good rugged task lights and plan on getting the 2AA Poly ? Streamlight. It still is lacking in the lanyard department, connection being at the bezel end IMO. Energizer shows some promise with there Hard Case series. I need good rugged/reliable task lights with .5-1.0 watt LED in 2 AA poly. And sometimes it needs to be rated like the Streamlight.


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## DimmerD (Apr 19, 2009)

I agree brightness isn't EVERYTHING but it is the main thing we are concerned with with our flashlights. Whether the brightness goes low or high enough for an individual is one of the main keys we look at in determining if it will suit our needs.


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## kaichu dento (Apr 19, 2009)

I'm concerned with getting the amount of light I need for the job. Sure, I want my car to be able to do 80 when I'm passing, but when I'm in the driveway I never get out of first. 

Having a high level of brightness available and also being able to cut back when necessary is my preference.


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## woodrow (Apr 21, 2009)

I just bought a Fenix TK40 and a TA30. Both are great lights. I ended up keeping the TA30 because it reminded me of my old SF M3 in toughness. It may be soon that with the new lights pushing out 500+ lumens...soon we will be defending our love for some favorite low output 200 lumen led lights.... I just find that to be really funny.


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## marksun (Apr 21, 2009)

Probably due to light deprivation in childhood I am a sucker for bright lights (but there is such a thing as overkill)


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## hurricane (Apr 21, 2009)

qip said:


> thats why multilevel lights are great :twothumbs



Indeed ... try reading a map at night with 225 lumens. You won't see a thing for 15 minutes. At the end of the day, I'd rather have more light than less, but variability/flexibility is better [in a one light solution]. I bought a SureFire U2 b/c it can throw some light, but it can also do tasks that require a lot less light [which is easier on the eyes and on batteries].

While having a powerful thrower is very very awesome, you'll also find it necessary to have low-power task lights [at least when camping, hiking, climbing, boating etc.]. This is why a light such as the U2 or the eagerly anticipated Invictus is so appealing to me: great for reading and tasks, but also awesome for navigating technical terrain or blinding [with a capital B] the freako who just broke into your home.


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## pongpong80 (Nov 2, 2009)

Content deleted by moderator. 

You have already posted that question here. Duplicate postings contravene Rule 9.


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## PCC (Nov 2, 2009)

I've found that I've matured as far as being a flashaholic is concerned. In the beginning all I cared about was bright, bright, bright. It was a lumens race for me. Recently, I've found, like many others here, that having a low-level light is actually quite nice and that I tend to use those more than the other lights in my collection.

There is a place for really bright lights, though: I'm a cyclist and, currently, a night time bike commuter. My head light is not considered bright by my own standards (NiteRider Minewt Mini-USB rated at 110 lumens) but it gets the job done. I'm looking for a bit more so I will be modifying this with a newer emitter some time in the next few months. When it comes to being seen and being able to see the crap that you're about to run over that might give you a flat tire, more light is better.


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## strinq (Nov 2, 2009)

I thought brightness is the ONLY thing?

:thinking:


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## John_Galt (Nov 2, 2009)

I'm kind of on the fence, at this point. I love super-high output, but I also really like the moon mode of my Quark Ti. Heck, I kind-of want it even lower. 

But super low's don't impress people.:devil: super bright "oh my god, my face has melted, TURN IT OFF!!!" "It _is _off" is really fun too...


Right now I appreciate both extremes, and want more of both...


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## Kestrel (Nov 2, 2009)

strinq said:


> I thought brightness is the ONLY thing?


LOL, can you turn down your avatar? It's hurting my night vision. :nana:


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## RAGE CAGE (Nov 2, 2009)

woodrow said:


> I just bought a Fenix TK40 and a TA30. Both are great lights. I ended up keeping the TA30 because it reminded me of my old SF M3 in toughness. It may be soon that with the new lights pushing out 500+ lumens...soon we will be defending our love for some favorite low output 200 lumen led lights.... I just find that to be really funny.


 
It is funny....i find myself pulling out my older 5mm cluster lights for up close work because the bounce back from the newer cree's and Li-Io driven rebels are hurting my eyes........


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## bluepilgrim (Nov 2, 2009)

Much of this comes down to what you want to look at and what the ambient light is and other sources in the area are, which your light has to compete with.


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## Henk_Lu (Nov 2, 2009)

I'm also looking for a very low Low in a light, which only a few lights can really offer.

Brightness is cool for shock and awe, but if you really think about it, situations where you NEED the full brightness of your light are rare. I don't talk about LEOs seeking for fugitives by night in a forest of course, I mean normal operation.

With a programmable light, brihtness has a postive side-effect however. At a given brightness, the new version of alight with double output compared to the older one will run much longer. This is true at least for LEDs, which get more efficient with each generation.

Very important is the beam. I preffer the brightness well spread across the whole beam to a very bright hotspot. Yes, you may say I preffer flood over throw. A light with a well-lit spill may seem less bright to somebody who doesn't know what Lumens are than a weaker light which only offers a bright hotspot.

If I repeat things that have been said already here I apologize, I just discovered the thread and have no time to read everything...


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## kaichu dento (Feb 22, 2010)

Let's not let this topic die until the low levels available become capable of satisfying all ranges of needs, particularly those of us who really crave levels that allow extreme low battery drain and matching light levels for those times that we don't need more than a lighted match that won't blow out.

I have at present only one light that will go as low as I'd like all my lights to go, but it's my Titan and much as I like it, it's not my favorite except when it comes to wanting only a smidgen of light.


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## AMD64Blondie (Feb 22, 2010)

The Lightwave 4000 is the perfect example of this. Not too blindingly bright...but the runtime is off the charts.(I once got 3 months of intermittent use from 3 Duracell alkaline D batteries..)


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## dymonite69 (Feb 22, 2010)

Wouldn't it be good if CPF had an interactive product selector like this:

http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/compare.asp

Portability/Weight?
Runtime?
Spot distance?
Flood distance and breadth?
Durability?
Colour rendition?
Candle mode?
Clip?
Upgradeability?
Modes?
Regulated?


And out popped several recommendation that you could review


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## carrot (Feb 22, 2010)

dymonite69 said:


> Wouldn't it be good if CPF had an interactive product selector like this:
> 
> http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/compare.asp
> 
> ...


Sure would be. I volunteer you to be Grand Master of Database Keeping.


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## RAGE CAGE (Feb 22, 2010)

A bit of irony here- Maglite may be listening with the introduction of the XL100 and its 8 second no movement moon mode and the accelerometer dimmer. Kind of like a reliable solitare. There IS a definate need for lower output/ long runtime torches IMO.


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## GarageBoy (Feb 22, 2010)

Efficiency is everything
If it's not as bright, I want it to run THAT much longer

Of course, I want a well built light too, but if the circuit sucks (think Jetbeam's Jet-Mu) and I can't get it easily modded, it's a deal breaker
Beam quality is not so important to me, as long as it doesn't look like a defocused [email protected]

Low can be done with a separate, 5mm LED light

And as a member during the dark days of Lux Is, brighter IS better


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## jcw122 (Feb 22, 2010)

I chose my 4Sevens Quark because I found out brightness isn't everything. I liked the idea of better color rendition over brightness, BUT it's not like I'm going to go out and purchase a light that is significantly dimmer but has good color rendition, that's just stupid.


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## Brigadier (Feb 22, 2010)

The things I really like about my Novatac 85T's are:

1. UI - very nice. All 4 modes very accessible one handed.
2. Beam color and shape
3. The low is .3 lumens, nice for at night.

I also like the fact that my Jet-III M will go even lower than the 85T.:thumbsup:

Versatility.


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## AEHaas (Feb 22, 2010)

Winning isn’t everything; it’s the only thing. 
That’s for sports (Henry Russell ("Red") Sander) and later by Vince Lombardi).

For me (and perhaps a few others):
Brightness isn’t everything; it’s the only thing.

aehaas


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## GregY (Feb 22, 2010)

OK, I will end this thread. 

Bear in mind why we use flashlights at all. So, with that in mind:

Brightness isn't everything. Having *ENOUGH* brightness is everything. The rest is just gravy.

You need enough brightness to do what you set out to do, or else there was no point in bringing a flashlight at all. But not all jobs need to same amount, or even the same distribution, of light. And depending on what you're doing, too much light can be just as bad as not enough.

So there.


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## carrot (Feb 22, 2010)

I guess I am being misunderstood, despite people several pages ago understanding. I am not saying brightness is unimportant.


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## kaichu dento (Feb 23, 2010)

AEHaas said:


> Brightness isn’t everything; it’s the only thing.


Yep... the right amount of brightness is what sets the winning lights apart from others and sometimes the right amount of light is a very gentle floody beam or even the red emitter on a Photon Pro or 85Tr.


GregY said:


> OK, I will end this thread.
> 
> Bear in mind why we use flashlights at all. So, with that in mind:
> 
> ...


Yeah! I like all my motorized vehicles to have accelerator actuators and like my lights the same way! Right speed/brightness is determined by circumstances! 


carrot said:


> I guess I am being misunderstood, despite people several pages ago understanding. I am not saying brightness is unimportant.


We know that Carrot, but the ones who are misinterpreting you are getting lonelier by the day. Compared to even a year ago I think the understanding of proper brightness level is starting to sink in.

M6 is a pretty cool light from what I hear but can you imagine using it to look at your watch lying in your sleeping bag! Burnt retinas!


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## Saint_Dogbert (Feb 23, 2010)

I like a wide range of brightness; this was what lead me to choose the Quark 2AA. Having both a very low low, good max and some well-placed levels in between gives you capability and options. Options are good. I also like to have the ability to extend run-times, which a low output makes possible.


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## bluepilgrim (Feb 23, 2010)

Flashlight user interfaces still have a way to go. Imagine turning on a ceiling light in the living room but instead of having a dimmer with a knob or toggle switch you have to push a button and hold it in for some length of time instead of moving it to some position -- and it being hard to get just the level you want so you might need to try it a few times. I doubt we would see many houses with dimmer switches if they were like that. 

That we do use dimmer switches all the time indicates how important it is to have the level we want -- and to get there quickly and easily.


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## kaichu dento (Feb 23, 2010)

bluepilgrim said:


> Flashlight user interfaces still have a way to go. Imagine turning on a ceiling light in the living room but instead of having a dimmer with a knob or toggle switch you have to push a button and hold it in for some length of time instead of moving it to some position -- and it being hard to get just the level you want so you might need to try it a few times. I doubt we would see many houses with dimmer switches if they were like that.
> 
> That we do use dimmer switches all the time indicates how important it is to have the level we want -- and to get there quickly and easily.


Excellent analogy! Just imagine if all we had for house lighting was high intensity spots stuck on high! :sick2:


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## [email protected] (Feb 23, 2010)

Retina burning brightness isn't everything... but it can be depending on the application, efficiency, reliability, upgrade-ability, quality of construction, frequency of emitted light, user configurability & aftermarket support are all equal IMHO, I mean what's the point of owning a PH50-in-a-6P if I can't feed it or replace & upgrade components as necessary/desired :thumbsup:


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## DHart (Feb 23, 2010)

kaichu dento said:


> Yep... the right amount of brightness is what sets the winning lights apart from others and sometimes the right amount of light is a very gentle floody beam



or just a hint of tiny illumination in a very dark situation.

This is putting it perfectly... the "right amount" for the situation is everything. :thumbsup:


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## dymonite69 (Mar 1, 2010)

Brightness isn't everything because:

1) Too much light results in loss of night adaptation so we lose both colour perception, spatial resolution and sensitivity to movement in areas not being directly illuminated.

2) If the spectral power distribution of the light source is inadequately weighted then we lose brightness, colour and spatial sensitivity.

3) Objects in the indoor and outdoor setting have different absorption spectra so different light sources work better in each of those circumstances.

4) Uneven or excessive light affect the casting of shadows that may negatively influence depth perception


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## fisk-king (Apr 2, 2010)

IMHO, I think its due to a *flashlight*/learning curve dealing with the notion of wanting "more brightness". After reading some of the posts in this thread alot of the people, who have been here for a time, state that they first bought into this notion but gradually learned better over time. Myself included. When I first joined I wanted the brightest and coolest looking light( aesthetics is still key:naughty and wondered why alot of the vets said otherwise. I have to admit that in the beginning this forum seemed overwhelming. I never cared about "bin codes" or types of emitters, etc. I just wanted a dang bright flashlight! 

Now over a year later and still *more* reading to do, I am currently searching for a practical, not tactical:naughty:, flashlight that fulfills alot of my needs. Hmmm a Ra light w/ a selector switch for brightness? :thinking:

Maybe next year there will be less *tactical* branded flashlights but more *practical* ones.


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## DHart (Apr 2, 2010)

Yeah... I kind of got caught up in a max output quest until I found myself with about 30 nice lights and realized that I really only need a few good ones. 

And also discovered that there were a variety of other flashlight attributes which were much more important to me than attaining the brightest possible output. I'm quite content with a flashlight which has reasonable max output (even if not the maximum possible) as long as the flashlight has the following qualities:

1) a nice clean beam (not ringy)
2) nicely defined central beam (a little throwy) easing softly into a moderately wide, bright, and useful spill
3) pleasing neutral to ever-so-slightly warm tint
4) a low low (like 1 to 4 lumens or so)
5) easy UI to attain max, min, and one or two intermediate levels.

As long as a general-use light offers these attributes (which have nothing to do with maximum brightness), I have little need nor desire to seek out and obtain ever brighter maximum output. So no, for me, brightness is definitely NOT everything. It is nice to have but secondary to these other attributes.


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## JaguarDave-in-Oz (Apr 2, 2010)

I have about twenty torches. I have tested all of them against another at some time in the past few months so I have a ranking of brightness amongst them. I test them by taking them outside (where 95% of my torch use occurs) and seeing how much of my property I can see with my own eys while using them (a test which equates to the majority of my usage pattern). The more of my property I can see with my torch the more useful the torch is to me.

Invariably it's the brightest ones that allow me to see the most of my area and thus it's the brightest ones that turn out to be the most useful. Well, I have to say that's not really unexpected to me.

With the bounds of sensibility run-time is unimportant, I have a bazillion batteries. Colour tint is not really that important, I see just about as well with a greenish tint torch as I do with a bluish tint one. Naturals and warms cast a yellowy brown pall over everything and my eye detests that so I don't play that game, they are dimmer anyway. 

About the only thing other than brightness that concerns me is the beam angle and the way the spot fades into the spill but no matter what I'm still going to choose to use the the brightest one. 

I can always make a bright light dimmer, I can't make a dim light brighter. Provided I can fit the torch in my pocket, brightness wins for me every time. That's why I love my new P20C2 MkII. It's brighter than the other 19 torches so it gets used every day, they don't.


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## DHart (Apr 2, 2010)

JaguarDave.... I can totally relate and agree with your assessment of what's important in a flashlight to you. I live in the country on 5 wooded acres with wooded acreage beyond and when I'm wanting to see out there far, I too will choose the brightest-throwy arrow in the quiver. (At present that would be my Jet III Military, which is a great thrower.) 

So what you're saying makes perfect sense to me. And in that application, I guess brightness is close to "everything" for that application. But that's not the light I would necessarily choose for my general use around the house - an application where brightness is not "everything". I never use my Jet III M around the house.

Most of my flashlight use is in and around the house and that's why ultimate brightness is lower among my desired attributes for general use in the house.

If I had to have just one light for out on the acreage as well as around the house, yes, it would be important to me to choose one with ultimate brightness, as long as it was compact enough for general use and dimmable to 1 to 3 lumens or so. And, hopefully, I could meet most of my other criteria as well.

I haven't checked to see, but I would guess that there's a newer Jet III Military out by now with a much hotter emitter than mine has (XR-E Q3 5A). Perhaps I'm due for an upgrade! 

Definitely different criteria for different applications.


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## JaguarDave-in-Oz (Apr 2, 2010)

DHart said:


> If I had to have just one light for out on the acreage as well as around the house, yes, I would choose one with ultimate brightness as long as it was compact enough for general use and dimmable to 1 to 3 lumens or so. And, hopefully, I could meet most of my other criteria as well.


Indeed, and choosing's pretty much what I had to do (that's whay I went through twenty odd torches before I finally found what I was looking for in an every day carriage torch).

I spend most of my time (day and night) outside the house and that means that whatever I use has to be something that I'm carrying with me and since I don't wear a belt I have to have it in a pocket. 

I guess there will always be a compromise somewhere no matter what I carry but I reckon the tool has to be capable of operating in the worst case scenario and that, to me, means it needs to be as bright as it can so I can see either the widest or the furthest (that's a beam shape preference that I'm still torn between two on. My P20C2 MkII and my original model P20C2).

It's a very very rare occasion that I would use my torch inside the house but my thing about being able to make a bright light dimmer would come in there because I can always put my rather threadbare handkerchief over the lens if I want a close up dim diffused beam but on the otehr hand I just can't think of a way of improving the brightness of a dim torch.

I guess my point comes down to the fact that for some people brightness is genuinely the more important facet and it's not, as someone inferred much earlier, always that they are under-done on sophistication or education.


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## Black Rose (Apr 3, 2010)

For me, multi-mode lights and drop-ins have become the solution.

Brightness is there when needed, but 90% of the time, only the low mode is used.

Add a neutral white Rebel to the mix, and it's near perfection for me.


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## DHart (Apr 3, 2010)

JaguarDave... on your P20C2 and P20C2 MkII do you have SM or OP reflectors? Do you obtain a good throw with a nice bright and wide spill with either of those lights? And, dare I ask, clean beam? And how's the tint?


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## JaguarDave-in-Oz (Apr 3, 2010)

I'm using orange peel on both. The orange peel is different between them too.

The original model has an extremely light peel, barely there. It is enough to take away the "ringiness" that it has when I use my smooth reflector but the peel doesn't seem to dimisnish the real life throw by more than a few yards. Certainly not enough to make me want to go back to the rings of the smooth. One thing I did notice on the early model orange peel reflector was that it was focussed just past its pointiest setting so I had to shim the reflector out by seven thou or so.

My new mkII version has a heavier peel. It does not throw as far as the earlier model (though that's probably more to do with the XPG than the peel). On the other hand, it has a huge amount of light and the smoothest transition from spot to spill of any of my torches. I thought my Nitecore D10 was good for transition but the p20c2 MkII is way ahead. 

I lose maybe about fifteen to twenty yards of throw with the mkII over the earlier model but it lights up the intervening area with a much more even and solid wide path of light so it's just as useful. That is to say that I can see wide rather than long so in the end they both sort of cover the same square yardage with bright light even though they do it in a different shape it basically gets the same result in a search pattern when looking for a fox etc.


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## carrot (Apr 3, 2010)

DHart said:


> Yeah... I kind of got caught up in a max output quest until I found myself with about 30 nice lights and realized that I really only need a few good ones.
> 
> And also discovered that there were a variety of other flashlight attributes which were much more important to me than attaining the brightest possible output. I'm quite content with a flashlight which has reasonable max output (even if not the maximum possible) as long as the flashlight has the following qualities:
> 
> ...


Nothing sucks more than being misunderstood.

When I said brightness isn't everything, I intentionally left it open to interpretation. However, I was also hoping someone would bring up this sort of point and seeing a post like yours in this newly revived thread certainly made my day. Thanks DHart.


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## DHart (Apr 3, 2010)

carrot said:


> Nothing sucks more than being misunderstood.
> 
> When I said brightness isn't everything, I intentionally left it open to interpretation. However, I was also hoping someone would bring up this sort of point and seeing a post like yours in this newly revived thread certainly made my day. Thanks DHart.



Hey carrot.... glad you appreciate the viewpoint. Best wishes, my friend.

P.S. The lights I have which provide that which I just described above are my first generation XP-E Quarks (cool & neutral).... I love 'em all, they perform magnificently, gorgeous beams, great balance of throw & spill, very pleasing tints, all running great on li-ion rechargeables... and I feel no need whatsoever to replace them with something newer/brighter. At some point I may choose to add a hotter torch/thrower (updating my Jet III M) for use on my property (perhaps the P20C2 MkII), but for general use I'm thrilled with these Quarks.


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## MarNav1 (Apr 3, 2010)

LLCoolBeans said:


> Agreed, quality is far more important than quantity. People get too hung up on numbers.


So true. :laughing:


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## Roger999 (Apr 3, 2010)

325addict said:


> and, did you ever turn on a C3 or something like it, in the middle of the night, to see what time it is? Your eyes are SOOO adapted to darkness then..... you only see all kinds of colors in front of your eyes :mecry:


Get a watch with well lumed dials + hands and you won't need the flashlight to see the time for a good hour or 2 :twothumbs.


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## JaguarDave-in-Oz (Apr 3, 2010)

If I'm walking around at night I'd already have my torch turned on so I'd be able to see my watch with it just fine.


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## fisk-king (Apr 3, 2010)

JaguarDave-in-Oz said:


> If I'm walking around at night I'd already have my torch turned on so I'd be able to see my watch with it just fine.


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## scout24 (Nov 2, 2011)

Since Carrot was kind enough to link this in another thread, I thought I'd add some recent observations from the Great Snow of October here in the Northeast, complete with ongoing power outages for some... 

1. Zebralight H501w is the most useful close-range headlamp in existence. Wide comfortable strap, runs forever on an Eneloop, great tint, and intuitive UI.

2. Fenix EO1 with two small magnets attached to my fridge to ceiling bounce is a fantastic night light. Thanks to david1t for the tips in the ZL mod thread in headlamps! 

3. High CR-I lights are easy on the eyes, and help with eye strain from working in the dark. More pleasant than cool white for me.

4. Tailstanding is important to me for ceiling bounce area lighting.

5. When it's truly dark, and there's no ambient light, lower output is certainly not a handicap.

6. During power outages, flamethrower lights DO draw attention, wanted or not...

7. YMMV.


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## HotWire (Nov 2, 2011)

We just had a power outage, and despite my house being filled with bright hotwires and superbright LEDs, it was the low level lights that produced the most satisfaction. Don't need much light and the runtime is longer. Did miss CPF and the internet, though!


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## mikedeason (Nov 3, 2011)

I must be in the minority.

firing up 500 + lumens always brings a smile to my face.

Same reason I drive a Vette.

I like to have the power even if I dont need it....its Big Kid Syndrome.


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## kaichu dento (Nov 3, 2011)

Nice posts on the power outages, and the high level first types will be the ones coming over to borrow a cup of batteries...


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## mvyrmnd (Nov 3, 2011)

I always chased the biggest, brightest lights I could lay my hands on - hence my purchase of a number of ma_sha1's builds 

Now, I want my cake, - and I want to eat it. I want a light that is High CRI, can do thousands of lumens AND can run for hundreds of hours on low.

Since I have that flashlight, I'm stuck on where to go from here.

That said, my most commonly used light is my Quark AA on moonlight mode.

Please excuse the disjointedness of this post. New homebrew batch complete tonight.


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## AFKAN (Nov 3, 2011)

Fantastic thread...

Ultimately I suppose it comes down to what you want to use it for?

My RRT3 never fails to bring a smile to my face on high, and yet I can run it on a single lumen.

For the sort of things I do with it, it's perfect. However, I can totally see a million situations where it wouldn't be right, so I also carry a small LedLenser with me.

It's small, it chucks out light (I don't even know how much and frankly I don't care) and for almost all situations it's more than enough. It will most likely fulfill most peoples requirement on its own for a flashlight. 

So why did I buy an RRT3 if the LedLenser's so good?

It's big, it's heavy, it's eyewateringly expensive. But it's utter utter flashlight porn, and I fooking love it 

As Mike says above it's Big Kid Syndrome, to which I'm rapidly finding out, that there is no cure :devil:


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## ZMZ67 (Nov 4, 2011)

DHart said:


> Yeah... I kind of got caught up in a max output quest until I found myself with about 30 nice lights and realized that I really only need a few good ones.
> 
> And also discovered that there were a variety of other flashlight attributes which were much more important to me than attaining the brightest possible output. I'm quite content with a flashlight which has reasonable max output (even if not the maximum possible) as long as the flashlight has the following qualities:
> 
> ...



DHart laid things out nicely so I will use a similar format.
clean beam
neutral/warm tint,4000K seems to be my sweet spot
consistent UI,not really interested in memory,programming etc.
quality/reliabilty
Those four are attributes I look for besides output.I am also a big fan of the NW XP-E Quarks and see no need to try and replace them with brighter versions,actually I wish I had purchased a couple more.Malkoff M60/M61 warm or neutrals are another favorite even though other drop-ins offer more output.One other concern I have with "Brightness" is that the LEDs may be driven at max or overdriven to achieve the highest output levels and shorten the life of the LED.These lights are not cheap and I want to be able to use them on thier highest setting without constant fear of damage.


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## Bullzeyebill (Nov 4, 2011)

I agree also that the highest brightness, and lumens is not everything. My Surefire M6 with the venerable MN15, and two 18650's, always brings a smile to my face. The about 200 lumens that it puts out casts a huge center beam and has great visability with good contrast at distance.

Bill


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## eh4 (Nov 4, 2011)

HotWire said:


> We just had a power outage, and despite my house being filled with bright hotwires and superbright LEDs, it was the low level lights that produced the most satisfaction. Don't need much light and the runtime is longer. Did miss CPF and the internet, though!



A brighter light makes the unlit areas that much darker. 
On the other hand a bright light bounced off a ceiling can be the best sort of dimmer light.
I'm really looking forward to getting to mess with a Zebra hi CRI flood.

For days and days of no power (been a few years since that's happened here) dim red light was the most comfortable for me, again there was less distinction between what was illuminated and what wasn't, didn't have that sense of huddling around a light, more a sense of seeing in the dark. I still went with a dim yellow to go looking for something or a trip to the bath -which was fine, but turning on a brighter white light plunged my red lighting back into unsatisfactory ineffectiveness for some time... I just avoided using the brighter lights because it really knocked out the homey feeling that the red provided after getting used to it. Before getting used to it the feeling was more like "stuck in a submarine at the bottom of the sea". ;-)


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## kaichu dento (Nov 4, 2011)

eh4 said:


> A brighter light makes the unlit areas that much darker.
> 
> ...turning on a brighter white light plunged my red lighting back into unsatisfactory ineffectiveness for some time... I just avoided using the brighter lights because it really knocked out the homey feeling...


This has been said many times and is one of the most counter-intuitive aspects of using a flashlight. Moreover, it speaks directly to the reason that some of us who really do enjoy bright lights and all, have such an affinity for sub-lumen levels. 

The second part of your edited post also hits the nail right on the head with the mention of the 'homey feeling' since I'm assuming your meaning had to do with atmosphere as opposed to hangin' out in the hood.


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## NewlandPhotography (Nov 5, 2011)

1 AAA battery sized like the microstream and one mode: = Beam Of God!


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## Bullzeyebill (Nov 6, 2011)

Let's close this thread and continue over here. Same general topic, and started this year. LOL.

Bill


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