# Laser Safety Question



## ThirstyTurtle (May 20, 2014)

I've tried my best to find answers to a question but have been unsuccessful thus far. I just ordered a 532nm 5mw laser from eBay. It appears that it will be closer to 20-30mw in reality. I'd appreciate any help you can provide. 

1) Is the danger from the laser only from a direct hit or reflection? 

What I mean is, if I shine the beam on a wall from 15' away, can I look at the dot without eye protection? If not, what is the distance at which it's safe to look at the dot without eye protection? 

I'm nearly certain I'll only be using this outdoors but I want to be as safe as I can be without having goggles. I know where everyone will suggest getting goggles and I intend to at some point, most likely when I order a higher-powered laser. 

Thank you!


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## TEEJ (May 20, 2014)

As you have no way of knowing the actual strength of the laser...generally, assuming that a reflective surface can flash the beam at your eye...and that's going to be bad.

The spot itself should be ok at the ranges you're talking about...as long as the spot is not hitting something reflective.

The tricky thing is that damage can occur before you can tell...so it's best to err on the side of caution.


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## PhotonWrangler (May 20, 2014)

One very large problem is unexpected glints. If you're waving a laser around, it can accidentally strike a reflective surface unexpectedly. A window, a gum wrapper, a hubcap... you get the picture. You need to practice the same type of muzzle discipline as a trained shooter. 

Enjoy and be safe.


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## inetdog (May 20, 2014)

If you are using it outdoors, you will have somewhat lower risks for yourself, especially if you avoid "unnatural" reflective surfaces. But remember that water droplets make a good approximation of a retroreflector.
On the other hand, outdoors you will have to worry more about injuries to others, including people outside your direct line of sight.


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## FRITZHID (May 20, 2014)

And be wary of paints with reflective particles as well, there are textured paints/surfaces that have tiny glass or mica like particles in them that can reflect unexpectedly.... personal experience with a textured ceiling and 100mw, caught me and had eye/head ache for a few days.


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## ThirstyTurtle (May 20, 2014)

What about hitting a retroreflective highway sign? I used to shine the $5 cheap red lasers I had as a kid at those and was a made how the dot got way bigger and was extremely visible. I'm thinking I should avoid such signs with this new laser... 

So I can look at the dot on no-reflective surfaces from 20'+? Would light-colored flat interior paint count as "reflective"?


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## TEEJ (May 20, 2014)

There are so many variables, I'd just recommend getting the laser shields and calling it a day.


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## FRITZHID (May 20, 2014)

Signs are a big no no! Lol
Flat paint, etc, should be fine at 20' but TEEG is right, best bet is glasses. Safety 1st when eyes and lasers are involved.
I have many lasers in many different spectrums and wattages and I have/use glasses for all of them above 10mw..... unless the project I'm working on just simply prohibits their use (night photography, close quarters for head space, color rendition is a must, etc.) And ALL my "viewers".... they are a must cause I won't be held responsible for others health! Lol


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## ThirstyTurtle (May 20, 2014)

Well I think I'll wait for the laser, see if I'm into it enough that I think I'll buy more in the future. If that's the case, I'll get glasses before getting another laser. 

I suspect that lasers (while awesome) will not interest me as much as lights because unlike lights, they don't have much of a practical use and are much more of a "cool" show piece mostly.


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## bshanahan14rulz (May 20, 2014)

With a laser, the mW rating is supposed to be optical power. Imagine, if you will, a green spot, same size as an LED chip, emitting 0.03W. It sounds much less dangerous that way. This is because the light is not specularly reflected. For example, a typical high power blue LED, like perhaps what is in the XP-E, emits 0.75W (750mW). 

All things change once that dot is shined onto something smooth and reflective. You don't have the rough surface to spread the light; instead, beam keeps going in a tight, focused manner, towards its unintended target. 

Also, just because you have goggles that block 532nm effectively, don't assume that it is safe to point at your eyes. DPSS lasers like 532nm green lasers often have an IR component that wasn't filtered out (to save money). Gluing an IR filter to the front of the laser fixes that issue, though


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## SkOrPn (May 20, 2014)

bshanahan14rulz said:


> Gluing an IR filter to the front of the laser fixes that issue, though



How much safer does an IR filter make the laser? Also, does an IR filter reduce visible brightness at all, or just the invisible IR light? Where can you get IR filters?


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## TEEJ (May 21, 2014)

SkOrPn said:


> How much safer does an IR filter make the laser? Also, does an IR filter reduce visible brightness at all, or just the invisible IR light? Where can you get IR filters?



The filters are IN the laser device, you don't see them. The process of producing the beam can generate a LOT of IR, and, its invisible, so you don't SEE it hitting your eye, and, damage occurs deep inside the eye because your lens doesn't reflect it as it does visible wavelengths, etc...and, IR = HEAT.

GOOD lasers include an IR filter as part of a standard assembly. Budget versions may leave it off, as you can't tell by looking if its in there, etc...especially looking at an advertisement.

If the laser's spec is a visible beam, that DOES at least act as a tracer for the invisible beam (The invisible beam is where the visible beam is pointed...), but, the IR part can be "brighter" than the visible part. That can make the visible spot APPEAR to be "ok" to look at (not that bright) but leave you unaware of the IR boring into your eye balls and damaging them. You might not even feel pain or discomfort for a while AFTER the exposure....so a long point at something can lead to quite a lot of exposure.


Laser goggles CAN include multiple wavelength protection, say vis + IR, but, they HAVE TO have gaps in the coverage even in Vis, or they would not be able to see through, etc.


Example:









Notice the coverage described on the lens:

190 - 534 nm + 960 - 1064 nm OD 7+

That means that it has an Optical Density of 7+ for those two bands.


850 - 925 nm OD 5+

The optical density is 5+ for that band.


925 - 1070 nm 6+ for that band, and so forth.

The higher the optical density, the less light gets through the lens, and the more protective it is.


Notice that there's NO protection listed for 534 nm to 850 nm...so that's the light you are SEEING with.




The IR protection is in the higher bands, in this case, from ~ 850 nm upwards. ISO considers near IR to start at 780 nm for example, so these glasses let through the red end of IR. ALL of my lasers have IR filters though.



It ALSO means that these shields give a lot of protection in the UV to Green wavelengths, so blue and green lasers would be appropriate for them for example (445 nm or 532 nm, etc), but that a Yellow laser (~ 580 nm, etc...) or Orange or Red, would NOT be a good choice, and you'd use DIFFERENT goggles with OD designed for THOSE wavelengths.


These also list the % VLT, which is the percent of Visible Light Transmitted, in this case, 35% of the Visible Light Is Transmitted....similar to what gets through a regular pair of sunglasses in practical terms. A higher %VLT means those sunglasses are lighter, so your view is brighter, less is blocked, and so forth.


For example, if the OD is closer to 4, the %VLT might be closer to 50% for some glasses....depending upon how much of the visible is included in the blocking.


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## bshanahan14rulz (May 21, 2014)

Teej had a great answer and a great explanation of the ratings of good laser protection goggles. 

IR filter makes DPSS lasers a bit safer, since most cheaper goggles do not filter out the IR components of DPSS lasers. It just filters out the IR light. The filter itself looks like a piece of colored glass. You might find an IR filter in some cameras, or look around ebay for 'em. o-like does have some IR filters. I've bought a few items from them a few years ago and they got here fine, but one purchase does not make a good sample size, statistically speaking.


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## stewdogg (May 21, 2014)

If you go over to LPF they have tested tons of glasses. There is a $10 pair that offers some protection and would be better than nothing if you don't want to get into the larger investment of the eagle pair or whatnot.
I would say being new to lasers and using a power over 5mw would require glasses.
If you go over to LPF there is a story of a fella that was using a 445nm laser, it dropped and hit him in the eye for a split second. He said that he never even felt it. It only seemed like a really bright light. Now he has some pretty serious damage in his eye and there's no fix. There is one possibility of stem cell treatment for helping the eye, but due to the fact that he damaged his eye with an illegal laser no one will offer any help... I will always wear safety eyewear.


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## markr6 (May 21, 2014)

bshanahan14rulz said:


> Teej had a great answer and a great explanation of the ratings of good laser protection goggles.



He's got great answers and examples for just about every topic!! Always enjoy the responses


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## SkOrPn (May 21, 2014)

@TEEJ, thank you for the reply. Is very informative. However, I was looking to see if I should install a IR into a cheap green that I do not own yet. I will be using it for sighting in a crossbow scope and the dot will need to be about 5 to 6 feet (no trajectory drop at this distance) from the end of the bow. Then once the turrets are zeroed (on the dot) in I only need to make final adjustments on the horizontal turret using the supplied software and turret clicks. I have Software and complete specs on the actual drop, so with a little math (done by a computer) I can have the absolute perfect zero using a laser for initial zeroing. The pre-made laser arrows for this purpose are MUCH higher in price but nothing at all fancy, lol, its just a small laser housed in a hollow arrow. I can do the same with a cheapo from ebay I am sure. I built my own laser a few months ago, but it did not come out as expected.

I already have IR glasses but I can't see through the scope when wearing them, thus is completely useless for scope sighting. I wear corrective lenses myself but I do not remember how much IR filtering I have on them, if any. Also, my scope is a high quality model with coatings, but I do not know exactly what is being blocked or amplified, I assume for glare reductions. They bring in more crystal clear light for better target acquisition, so this worries me that they may actually help "capture" more dangerous IR. Not knowing is my worry.

The laser I select will be green so it can double for some astronomy pointing, but it will not be over 5mw. So, again my question is can I install an IR into a cheap ebay green (SD301 or 303, or JD-850 or even a 5mw pen), and be "more" assured of "some" protection and still see it on a target during a bright afternoon? OR does anyone know of a green, that is perfectly flat from tail to tip (most important), with an IR filter already, focusable, and under say $50, preferably under $20? The current model I want to try for this purpose is a SD 301 recommended by Tmack and its under $20 bucks, but he says he is pretty sure it may not have IR filtering. It however does fulfill all my other needs, flat, focusable, cheap and a great host for upgrades etc.

Thanks


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## FRITZHID (May 21, 2014)

@ 5-6', I think you'll find a DPSS green laser over 5mw too brilliant to use as a sighting device, I tried some time ago with a bullet style I'd made for guns and the green was way too bright to focus on unless a very dark target was used. I switched it over to a 15mw red and was much easier to use at those distances. Just my experience.


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## ThirstyTurtle (May 21, 2014)

Thank you for great answers, TEEJ! Certainly don't excellent information on goggles. 

So let's assume this thing is more like 30mw instead of the advertised 5mw. If I use it exclusively outdoors and distances greater than 20', I should be completely safe as long as I don't get a bounce back from something reflective, does that sound right? 

I'll mostly point at trees or mountains or the sky me thinks...


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## Tmack (May 21, 2014)

Yes you'll be fine. Not to say accident don't happen, but outdoor beam viewing is fine without glasses.

When I'm indoors close range, burning something for fun, or testing on the lpm, glasses are on. Beam viewing, outdoor pointing, no glasses. Just use your best judgment. If you get that feeling that you may get hit, stop and put on your glasses. 

Very glad to see a safety thread. 
I deal with lasers every day and sometimes I get to comfortable. You don't want your reminder to be a useless eye.


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## ThirstyTurtle (May 21, 2014)

Thanks Tmack, I'm glad everyone who knows has made it clear to be very careful, especially with close range viewing and to be aware of reflections or dropping the laser. 

It's crazy honestly because I bet most people don't know all of this and anyone could order a laser from eBay and I'm assuming most of the cheap lasers have no safety warnings so someone could really hurt themselves. 

I'll be exceptionally careful!


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## SkOrPn (May 21, 2014)

FRITZHID said:


> @ 5-6', I think you'll find a DPSS green laser over 5mw too brilliant to use as a sighting device, I tried some time ago with a bullet style I'd made for guns and the green was way too bright to focus on unless a very dark target was used. I switched it over to a 15mw red and was much easier to use at those distances. Just my experience.


Yeah, agreed, that is why I am using a painted black cardboard draped over my carpet target. I tried with a red, but my build (bullet style 5mw cat toy + Garrity LED Flashlight) did not come out straight, lol. I think I could use a high quality laser further out from the crossbow, say 35 yards, but then I am putting a LOT of faith into the manufacturer of the laser and would not trust a cheap laser being perfectly straight at those distances. Plus the instructions from the crossbow guys specifically told me 5 feet from the end of my crossbow. Hence why the up close need, and a focusable model laser (SD301). At 5 feet it should be dead on or only 1-2 mm off at most. The Aim Sports arrow sighting tool, is a bullet style you screw into your arrows and I can use it at 35 yards as they make sure the beam is perfectly straight for obvious reasons. However, this can not be used as a pointer for astronomy. I want double use out of it and a good host for future upgrading purposes.

The IR concern is almost enough for me to just not do this at all. Which is why I want to know if IR filtering glued into a SD301 or a DIY module (if I decide to build my own again) would negate the concern, or negate at least 90% of the concern, lol...

I wouldn't mind a more powerful model, but again I need something functional and feel a more powerful model would be a waste of money for my purpose. I asked Tmack what he would charge for a pen or tube style with my specs, but he has not contacted me.


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## Tmack (May 21, 2014)

The levels of ir in these pens isn't enough to be worried about. Just treat it with respect like a laser of any power and you'll be fine. It's easy to get spooked by the it, but you should be careful ir or not.  

Sorry for the delay answer but I really don't go that small. I can build you a 501b host, but it wouldn't meet your criteria. The last pen I built to sell ended up costing me money, so I tend to just recommend a place to buy a decent one, or in your case, recommend parts.


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## SkOrPn (May 21, 2014)

Tmack said:


> The levels of ir in these pens isn't enough to be worried about. Just treat it with respect like a laser of any power and you'll be fine. It's easy to get spooked by the it, but you should be careful ir or not.
> 
> Sorry for the delay answer but I really don't go that small. I can build you a 501b host, but it wouldn't meet your criteria. The last pen I built to sell ended up costing me money, so I tend to just recommend a place to buy a decent one, or in your case, recommend parts.


Hmm, no thank you buttons here at CPF? Thank you Tmack for the reply. Do you know if that SD301 you recommended has a pot on the driver board? If so, can it be turned down in output or is it already as low as possible on these models? I could drill a nice access hole directly above the pot if need be and cap it with a easily removable sticker or small foam rubber ear plug. Just an idea...


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## Tmack (May 21, 2014)

I really wouldn't even turn down the pot on those. I've tweaked them both up and down resulting in either death, or nothing at all. You will not notice the difference either way. M


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## SkOrPn (May 21, 2014)

Tmack said:


> I really wouldn't even turn down the pot on those. I've tweaked them both up and down resulting in either death, or nothing at all. You will not notice the difference either way. M


Ahh, OK. Thanks again Tmack.


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## Tmack (May 21, 2014)

Anytime my friend  

Yeah you'd have to cut it in half, or double it to really notice, and the driver will not allow you to adjust that far by potentiometer. 
Best to leave it be. It'll be best for the module, and no headache for you.


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## TEEJ (May 21, 2014)

BTW - If you get a custom high powered laser from Tmack, just use _that_ instead of the cross bow on the deer, etc, and call it a day.


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## SkOrPn (May 21, 2014)

TEEJ said:


> BTW - If you get a custom high powered laser from Tmack, just use _that_ instead of the cross bow on the deer, etc, and call it a day.


lmao, then all I have to do is go pick up his unconscious body after he hits the tree at 30 mph? Haha, good one...


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## Tmack (May 21, 2014)

Already cooked too!


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## TEEJ (May 21, 2014)

SkOrPn said:


> lmao, then all I have to do is go pick up his unconscious body after he hits the tree at 30 mph? Haha, good one...



When you get good at it...they run into a mesquite and start it smoking.


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## blah9 (May 21, 2014)

Thank you guys for all the knowledge you're providing. I'm interested in purchasing a powerful laser one day, but it's hard for me to justify it at this point. One day I'll probably spring for one though!


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## ThirstyTurtle (May 25, 2014)

Here's some photos of my new eBay laser. COULD NOT be happier with the product for $18 shipped. I don't see how they make money considering it also came with a (crappy) 18650 and charger.


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## TEEJ (May 25, 2014)

Usually they can hit that price point by cutting all QA/QC steps and measures. That means the longevity and durability, IR filters, etc, are what suffer. You can of course luck out, or, have solder joints fail, diodes shift or overheat, get unwanted IR exposure, etc. (Different wavelengths can have different issues for example)


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## ThirstyTurtle (May 25, 2014)

TEEJ said:


> Usually they can hit that price point by cutting all QA/QC steps and measures. That means the longevity and durability, IR filters, etc, are what suffer. You can of course luck out, or, have solder joints fail, diodes shift or overheat, get unwanted IR exposure, etc. (Different wavelengths can have different issues for example)



10-4, as much fun as this is, I can see a "real" laser in my future.


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## SkOrPn (May 25, 2014)

ThirstyTurtle said:


> 10-4, as much fun as this is, I can see a "real" laser in my future.


LOL, that's how they get you hooked on it...

*WHY THAT LASER IS CHEAP!*

But it really is not cheap and here's why. A 5th of these products nowadays come from China, the world's largest manufacturing entity. They make a 5th of all products worldwide and have done so without having rules and regulations or equal opportunity employment. In Fact, most experts consider the labour force there to be that of slave labor (which is starting to change). In order to keep the US afloat we even pay all the transportation costs for the ships to run non-stop 24/7/365 so cost of shipping for the Chinese is pretty much non existent, or was for a while anyway. However, as the US continues to collapse so will the Chinese manufacturing system. All their labourers, like any modern rising nation are beginning to demand equal rights, incentives, pay raises, health benefits etc (no different than the laborers did in the last 60 years in US or Europe). Not to mention that now China is beginning to create Taxes on manufacturing companies (historically been non-existent), Safety regulations are being created (costs manufacturers more money), and environmental regulations (costs money) are all starting to be implemented in China and other slave labour countries. As these costs rise (and oil diminishes) for manufacturing companies, so will the costs of the products (exactly what happened in the US). As oil (OIL, a not so infinite resource is responsible for EVERYTHING we consume, food, clothes, products we buy etc, 100% of it all *(unless you buy something from a local individual who is 100% off-grid and doing everything the old school 1800's way lol. There is not one product that you can think of that is not here all thanks to a diminishing resource called oil)* is here because of a gooey black substance we call black gold. OIL production has steadily declined since the mid 90's when peak oil production was hit. No matter how you look at it, as oil declines and population rises and thus consuming rises etc, there can be only one outcome. Historically China has paid much less for its oil than the rest of the world. I won't get into why this was (long story) but just now in 2014 china is starting to pay the same as the rest of us. By 2015-17 or so prices of products from China will begin to be on par with the majority of the rest of the manufacturing countries. Once this happens, the only countries that will win the manufacturing wars will be the ones that have more resources, people willing to work for less and happy to be poor, and the ones that has the highest quality products (sound familiar? I just described the USA to a T about 60-70 years ago).

So moral of the story is be happy its cheap now, because it won't be for long. Besides, its only your perspective that its cheap. I retired a few years ago and before I did I looked at something like this as cheap and affordable as well. My custom built water cooled computer cost me about 5 grand to build, because I could, and my BMW, Porsche, Lexus and 3/4 ton Dodge V10 PU were all a waste of good money as far as I am concerned, however, now I see all this as being expensive in the long run. If OIL was infinite, that exact same laser in a world with unlimited resources (oil, natural gas and coal) would actually be $1.80, not an insane $18 dollars. The only thing that would stand in the way of your sales would be competition, not costs of manufacturing or transportation. Competition always seems to drive down costs. Which is why in the 1950's you could buy a Hot Dog in NY for 5 cents (the bread, the meat and the condiments were all made just outside the city on local farms), walk 200 feet and do it again with another vendor. If the first vendor was 6 cents, and the second vendor was 5 cents, then 200 feet more distance (today that 200 feet more to walk is now thousands of miles on the other side of the Pacific) was not to much to ask for a penny of savings. Back then we thought oil was a unlimited resource thus oil companies asked very little money for it (and thus the world grew by 5 billion people because manufacturing became easy and cheap), we had no regulations, no safety regulations, no multiple high taxes to pay, no such concepts as minimum wages to pay, health benefits to pay, etc etc, thus everything was cheaper. Not to mention much less people consuming in the beginning. Ford did not have to deal with a million car recalls per year due to safety issues, there were no seatbelts, or air bags for them to spend countless money developing, etc etc. It was the American who started suing companies for wrongful death claims when a family member was killed in a car accident because it lacked safety features. Insurance was for the upper middle class only and not mandatory for everyone. You are just kinda lucky that you live at the tail end of a time when people are paid more on average than all of the rest of human history. 100 years ago and or 50 years from now (when all scientists say oil will be 100% consumed at today's consumption rate), $18 would be more like an entire months pay and you just barely got by if you were very good at managing it. That is not a cheap product. Just the sheer amount of combined effort to get that laser to you is mind boggling and without resources like OIL it can not happen.

Here in the US a large company (or even a small one for that matter) could not manufacture that laser for anything less than 50-80 bucks, or more, and even then companies would barely profit or break even with everything they have to pay out just to get it to you. Not to mention no one here in the US cares about their own people any more, all we want is cheaper products (the American Entitlement mindset), and more in the wallet to buy with (the majority anyway) and to raise the quality of life in another country we don't even live in, and to heck with the unemployed going homeless or already homeless American. If we truly cared about our own people, we would not be buying Chinese stuff at all, myself included. So the $18 laser will win the sales race over the $180 laser 80% of the time (probably an understatement lol). If the Chinese had the same safety regulations in place, their laser would have the same quality built into it, same IR filters, etc and would cost near the same as buying it from an American manufacturer, if not more (considering transportation costs across the Ocean).

Do you remember when Wal-Mart first came out? What was their initial selling point? "Made in America" signs were hanging every where in the stores. Tags on products rarely said Made in China back then. That is because our prices were just as low, our quality even better, we had pride in buying only American made products (everyone back then wanted to know where it was made and gawked at anything not made here in the US), and we did not have so many rules and regulations in place hindering such products. Along with an endless, or what seemed like an endless supply of very cheap OIL (which now manufactures everything) freely flowing out of our very own land, mostly in Texas, the South and the Midwest... Need I say more?

Anyway sorry for the rant but, its not cheaper because they cut corners (that's a tiny minuscule aspect of it, they cut corners because they can and we allow it), its cheaper because America and other countries allow it to be cheaper PERIOD. If we would charge more for access to the American and European buying forces, maybe prices/competition would be the same and then American companies could start to compete again. However, put simply, we need at VERY minimum three or four times more oil for the exact same price we pay now to even consider becoming a manufacturing powerhouse again. Its just too late for all that because all that OIL resource that we need has long been found and consumed... 1500 wells go dry everyday and only a few go up in their place. There's only a little bit left and all that is the more difficult, much more expensive stuff to get at.

Please forgive this post but that is why that laser is $18 and it is NOT cheap by a long stretch, it's costing you is other ways that you do not recognize yet. Fact is an American family is starving somewhere because we buy Chinese products, and then the Feds uses our taxes and raise more taxes to try and feed that family "WE" put there in the first place... That is not how it is supposed to work, people are supposed to buy stuff from their local neighbors and local farmers and local manufacturers. But we don't... So they died out, their equipment rusting away, warehouses closed down, and the people are now on welfare or food stamps, and the Feds trillions of dollars in debt trying to pay for it all... IMO that Chinese made item *is the most expensive product in world history*, buying anything from anyone other than something that was engineered, built from the ground up here in the USA (or your local community, where ever that may be) will cost us dearly in the long run.

Don't feel guilty though, because the fact is unless everyone stands up and does what is right, and at the same time, nothing will change. I am a billion percent certain we Americans (the majority anyway) will not see what has hit us until it has long occurred and WAY too late to try and change it. Because it already has and very few seen it coming. Thus why should YOU (or I) worry about it? Its a done deal, so just enjoy the cheap benefits while it lasts, and prepare to die sooner rather than later. The world is going back to a 2 billion human population by the end of this century and nothing is going to stop it... Not unless we find a unlimited cheap replacement for OIL (That's not going to happen) or another Planet to live on with the same resources waiting to be consumed (That's not going to happen either, lol).

That is how they made money off the $18 laser! Besides, they left out the IR Filter because they also manufacture the IR Safety Glasses as well...

The End!


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## TEEJ (May 26, 2014)

That is a rather centric view point of course, as, w/o the above process you describe, the Chinese, etc, would not evolve to have regulations and fair work practices, etc....and eventually level the playing field, once again..Its part of that rising tide raising all boats thing.



For example, remember when people talked about "cheap Japanese crap"?

Then, Japanese companies had a young work force, no one had retired, and, GM, etc, had more people on pensions than in the factories to support, etc...and, then, Japan caught up, improved the quality and so forth, and now, many of their products are MORE expensive than US products, and they brought manufacturing to the US to reduce costs/increase profits.

China is now where Japan had been, and Korea is in the throes of a similar transition, etc.


The end result, if allowed to follow its natural course, will be as you described, in that the 3rd world will move to the 2nd, and the 2nd will move to the 1st, and so forth...and, eventually, its cheaper to buy local, for all concerned. 


Its unrealistic to expect a family that can barely pay their bills to pay 10x more for something they need, its just not going to happen at a proportion that would matter enough to stop the pattern. People shop by price more than any other parameter. Sure, quality, etc, come into play...but for the most part, they start with a budget, and then shop within it.


The pattern, repeated throughout history, is that a new entity undercuts the established entities to gain a toe hold and market share, then, grows INTO one of the established entities, so that THEY can be under cut by who ever's the new guy on the block at that time. 


A buddy of mine is a staunch buy American proponent (I try to as well, etc...), and, we were out of ammo, and, he wanted to go to Walmart because their .223 and 9 mm prices were the lowest he found. While there, I was joking about the American Flags for sale, and that they were all probably made in China. They had tons of flags for sale. I saw one's for $4, and for $40, etc, (Same size). I saw the expensive ones were made in the USA...BUT - they HAD USA made flags, so, I felt COMPELLED to pay 10x more for the same sized flag because it was made in the USA....I had to put my money where my mouth was essentially.


Could I afford to do that for every purchase I made, always? Probably not...but the FLAG seemed to scream out for justice in that issue at least.


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## hikingman (May 27, 2014)

I appreciate all the safety info here, because I'll soon be receiving a 3 watt 445nm from Tmack, and I still have lots to learn. Possibly should have gone for just a green pointer, what what the hell. I wanted to be able to light my campfires without matches anymore :laughing: Before doing that I will get an Eagle Pair for sure. And have any friends look the other way.

But seriously, there was all the joking about knocking a deer out, etc., but if I were in Montana in back country and came upon a grizzly (as I did some 40 years ago, thankfully without incident). This could be a true protective device, yes - no? I'm really curious about that.

But even more important, this aspect of reflections is something I didn't really think about. How far away is a pair of eyes safe from harm? Either direct or reflective? It has been thoughtfully pointed out that reflective surfaces can be deceivingly everywhere. So you aim it at a big pine tree for just a moment and hit a nail!

Just for conversation sake, say you DO hit a reflective surface that you didn't see (and with hopefully no one else around). How far away does that have to be to be safe (in case it happens to come square back at you)? EDIT: I realize this is a difficult question and maybe the answer is already obvious, but given that it seems to be OK to aim at non reflective objects in the outdoors, I'd like an idea where the distance would have to be for an unseen reflective surface not wiping your eyes out permanently if it just so happened to reflect right back to you. Maybe chances of that are slim, but based on the lasers power, is there a rule of thumb?

Dave


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## Tmack (May 27, 2014)

No rule of thumb. So many variables. How reflective, what percent of the power are you getting hit with etc. Just don't let it happen is the best rule of thumb. 

Oh and your baby ships tomorrow my friend


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## Tmack (May 27, 2014)

Man I love those focus adapters!


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## ThirstyTurtle (May 27, 2014)

Tmack said:


> Man I love those focus adapters!



Great googly moogly! 

Tmack, I know your have your customs thread but do you have or have you thought about making a sales thread where you have a couple of your most popular or favorite lasers listed with prices? I think you'd sell quite a few if you had a couple favorites for people to choose from with a known price, just an idea to consider!


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## Tmack (May 27, 2014)

I would definitely consider that. 
The maglite and these c11 are both my favorite styles. I'm going to look into that. 
Make sure my machinist has enough stock that I can put out some numbers. 

Thanks thirsty


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## SkOrPn (May 27, 2014)

hikingman said:


> But seriously, there was all the joking about knocking a deer out, etc., but if I were in Montana in back country and came upon a grizzly (as I did some 40 years ago, thankfully without incident). This could be a true protective device, yes - no? I'm really curious about that.



Anything that causes instant troubles/pain for a Bear will more than likely also cause it to think twice and turn around and leave. Some people may say they are ferocious creatures and will not stop if they decided to attack you. However all of them have a built in instinct that tells them when to turn around and not risk further injury. Serious injury in the wild is usually a death sentence and its instinct that tells them this. I would say yes, a bright laser hitting his eye would instantly make the Bear turn around and leave. However, it would be best to use pepper spray and a loud air horn (like my family in Alaska does on their hikes and hunts) since those will wear off and not cause permanent damage to the animal. If a bear loses its eyesight, it is as good as dead. Not very fair to an animal that was just following its mother nature provided instinct. I would say a 3w laser would instantly blind a bear for life, but a 200mw laser would just give it an instant headache and a temporary blind spot and make it leave the area. lol

But please lets not find out.

I too was startled by a bear not paying attention as she was walking with the wind to her back and her head down and cubs 10 feet behind her. I stood there on the trail stiff as a board and I never said a word thinking any second she will see me and run away, but she continued along until she was 8 or so feet from me. I nearly pissed myself and so did she. Thankfully when she saw me she was so terribly startled (heart attack moment for the both of us apparently) that she just darted like a racehorse (her feet actually dug into the ground like a cars tire taking off) nearly forgetting about her cubs, haha. One cub stayed behind looking at me for a minute or so before deciding it was not worth it. To this day I have never seen anything else in person that could run that fast. Bears are much faster than videos on youtube show, or this one had a starbucks coffee a few minutes prior to the encounter. I do not drink or smoke, but moments after that I sure could have used a shot of whiskey and a cigarette like no other... The next day in my office I ordered a can of Pepper Spray for Bears, and its still sitting here 14 years later unused... waiting for someone or something to **** me off


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## Tmack (May 27, 2014)

Great deterrent, but I want to see the man to pull out a laser, click it on, and nail a pissed off bear directly in its eyes.  

Although if it was close enough, anywhere on the face and it would be startled. And even a quick pass from the beam and it a lifetime of blindness for yogi.


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## PhotonWrangler (May 27, 2014)

...note to self.... don't **** off SkOrPn...


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## SkOrPn (May 27, 2014)

PhotonWrangler said:


> ...note to self.... don't **** off SkOrPn...



Haha, I don't think I could use bear pepper spray on a Human. I think it may be illegal... However, if my life is in danger, or I perceive it to be in danger I would use it in a pinch. I wonder if it ever loses its potency?


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## hikingman (May 27, 2014)

SkOrPn said:


> Anything that causes instant troubles/pain for a Bear will more than likely also cause it to think twice and turn around and leave. Some people may say they are ferocious creatures and will not stop if they decided to attack you. However all of them have a built in instinct that tells them when to turn around and not risk further injury. Serious injury in the wild is usually a death sentence and its instinct that tells them this. I would say yes, a bright laser hitting his eye would instantly make the Bear turn around and leave. However, it would be best to use pepper spray and a loud air horn (like my family in Alaska does on their hikes and hunts) since those will wear off and not cause permanent damage to the animal. If a bear loses its eyesight, it is as good as dead. Not very fair to an animal that was just following its mother nature provided instinct. I would say a 3w laser would instantly blind a bear for life, but a 200mw laser would just give it an instant headache and a temporary blind spot and make it leave the area. lol
> 
> But please lets not find out.
> 
> I too was startled by a bear not paying attention as she was walking with the wind to her back and her head down and cubs 10 feet behind her. I stood there on the trail stiff as a board and I never said a word thinking any second she will see me and run away, but she continued along until she was 8 or so feet from me. I nearly pissed myself and so did she. Thankfully when she saw me she was so terribly startled (heart attack moment for the both of us apparently) that she just darted like a racehorse (her feet actually dug into the ground like a cars tire taking off) nearly forgetting about her cubs, haha. One cub stayed behind looking at me for a minute or so before deciding it was not worth it. To this day I have never seen anything else in person that could run that fast. Bears are much faster than videos on youtube show, or this one had a starbucks coffee a few minutes prior to the encounter. I do not drink or smoke, but moments after that I sure could have used a shot of whiskey and a cigarette like no other... The next day in my office I ordered a can of Pepper Spray for Bears, and its still sitting here 14 years later unused... waiting for someone or something to **** me off



I appreciate your attitude about not wanting to permanently injure an animal that wasn't necessarily going to harm you. Great point. I took a mammalogy course at University of Montana Biological Station years ago and hiked several hundred miles alone in Glacier National Park and know what magnificent animals they are. They are often known to make charge like jestures and even start to, then break it off as you are wilting and peeing in your pants  Just 5 years ago, I watched one tear up a small lawn sized area hungry for marmots. Normally they are way too busy living their life to bother yours. Except occasionally, as in your story, it really could have gone either way as you know! Both my pepper spray bottles have gone unused since 1965, even though I've been back several times.

Dave


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## hikingman (May 27, 2014)

SkOrPn said:


> Haha, I don't think I could use bear pepper spray on a Human. I think it may be illegal... However, if my life is in danger, or I perceive it to be in danger I would use it in a pinch. I wonder if it ever loses its potency?



My two cans just wouldn't spray anymore. I would take them outside once in awhile to see if they WERE good. So I'd say they wear out of sorts even if hardly used. But then again, you're hearing about a sample of 2  Not a very good survey.


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## Tmack (May 27, 2014)

Did you see the picture of your laser my friend?


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## SkOrPn (May 27, 2014)

hikingman said:


> I appreciate your attitude about not wanting to permanently injure an animal that wasn't necessarily going to harm you. Great point. I took a mammalogy course at University of Montana Biological Station years ago and hiked several hundred miles alone in Glacier National Park and know what magnificent animals they are. They are often known to make charge like jestures and even start to, then break it off as you are wilting and peeing in your pants  Just 5 years ago, I watched one tear up a small lawn sized area hungry for marmots. Normally they are way too busy living their life to bother yours. Except occasionally, as in your story, it really could have gone either way as you know! Both my pepper spray bottles have gone unused since 1965, even though I've been back several times.
> 
> Dave



I am a very naturally type of person. I fully believe all creatures deserve their right to life. I also believe if your a meat eater, you should be hunting only when necessary and only if your methods are not detrimental to the animals environment or its population. The way the Indians lived is the way I wish I could have lived, even if it was a hardened lifestyle. I love animals and I love how some of them taste too 

I lived in Great Falls for quite some time (stationed at Malmstrom AFB) so I know the area well. My favorite places to go hiking/camping/fishing were Northern Holter Lake (and catching a hundred perch of the boat docks in a single afternoon) and eating Bison burgers at the Dam Restaurant . Also loved the "going to the sun road" and the amazingly crystal clear waters of Lake McDonald. Just an amazing area of the US. I miss it!


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## hikingman (May 27, 2014)

Tmack said:


> Did you see the picture of your laser my friend?



Was that the one in post #39? Funny, I have no idea how long and how heavy. Nice photo but hard to scale. Will PM you later. Leaving for 5 mile walk.


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## Tmack (May 27, 2014)

There ya go. This will make a great companion.


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## Arilou (May 28, 2014)

Using a high power laser on large animals is not likely to produce a desirable result. Pepper spray would be much more effective.

I have used a 1.7W laser to shoot bugs that get in the house. It will kill most bugs pretty easily, although flies are fast enough that they can often escape injury even when I hit them multiple times. Trying to kill bugs this way can become somewhat annoying because I've ended up burning things I didn't intend to, and you'll want to wear safety glasses in case you accidently hit any reflective surfaces.


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## TEEJ (May 28, 2014)

Arilou said:


> Using a high power laser on large animals is not likely to produce a desirable result. Pepper spray would be much more effective.
> 
> I have used a 1.7W laser to shoot bugs that get in the house. It will kill most bugs pretty easily, although flies are fast enough that they can often escape injury even when I hit them multiple times. Trying to kill bugs this way can become somewhat annoying because I've ended up burning things I didn't intend to, and you'll want to wear safety glasses in case you accidently hit any reflective surfaces.



LOL

Yeah, you must wear glasses to chase bugs, as you will be so intent on trying to keep the beam ON them, that as they run for their lives, the beam can easily cross a reflective surface.

One thing, the 3 watt 445 is way faster to kill, as it smokes them on contact within a fraction of a second. Aim at the body not the head, as the body doesn't seem to register pain or light, so they ignore being hit, but, the head has photoreceptors, and, they take immediate evasive action when they see the flash.

:devil:


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## Tmack (May 28, 2014)

Hahaahaha. And so the proper bug hunt technique is thoroughly explained.


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## ThirstyTurtle (May 28, 2014)

Tmack said:


> Hahaahaha. And so the proper bug hunt technique is thoroughly explained.



Haha yes! This is awesome, look forward to doing this with my future laser...


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## Arilou (May 28, 2014)

TEEJ said:


> LOL
> 
> Yeah, you must wear glasses to chase bugs, as you will be so intent on trying to keep the beam ON them, that as they run for their lives, the beam can easily cross a reflective surface.
> 
> One thing, the 3 watt 445 is way faster to kill, as it smokes them on contact within a fraction of a second. Aim at the body not the head, as the body doesn't seem to register pain or light, so they ignore being hit, but, the head has photoreceptors, and, they take immediate evasive action when they see the flash.



Killing flies is hard. Those little buggers are fast!

Maybe I should get a price quote on a higher-powered laser from Tmack  I'll probably just end up burning something I didn't intend to with that tho. And yes, you want safety glasses. Even looking at the spot from a 1.7W laser is annoying and causes afterimages.


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## Tmack (May 28, 2014)

How's the c11 doing my friend? New driver position working well?


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## hikingman (May 28, 2014)

Arilou said:


> Killing flies is hard. Those little buggers are fast!



This reminds me of an old Gary Larson cartoon where two guys are riddling this ol lady's living room with thousands of bullets from automatic weapons trying to kill her roaches :laughing:


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## FRITZHID (May 28, 2014)

Just do what I did.
Mod'd a 120W co2 to hand held...ish. with an old wwii scope, sighted it in and walla! 120watt co2 laser carbine fly rifle.... they pop like popcorn,.... just don't miss. 
o.o


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## Tmack (May 28, 2014)

Haha. Sounds like a monster. 
Have a fellow builder that did one on a storm trooper rifle style gun. Looks amazing.


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## TEEJ (May 28, 2014)

I only hunt where the background is burn resistant. If I hunt where a miss, or, as is common, the bug that WAS absorbing the laser evaporated/developed a hole, etc...The laser then hits what the bug used to be blocking. 

With laser shields on, it can be hard to tell when the bug has been buggered. 



Flies, as mentioned are tricky, but, if you watch their evasive actions, they DO follow certain patterns. 

For example, perched inverted on the ceiling. ..When they react, it will almost always be an initial vertical drop, followed by a roll to upright position, followed by a dart in an S pattern away from you. 

Hitting them in the S is harder, but, hitting on the ceiling and the vertical drop is a piece of cake. 

You know it works when they go to do the roll at the end of the drop, and the wings facing you before the roll are missing/out of action. ..so it rolls but can't dart...and goes straight down in a spiral like a downed Sopwith Camel.

When they crash land, they only try to run forward. 

Very predictable wee buggers if you pay attention. 

:devil:


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## Arilou (May 28, 2014)

Tmack said:


> How's the c11 doing my friend? New driver position working well?



I didn't take it apart to see what you did to secure the driver to the heatsink, but I haven't had any problems with it. It still works fine even after I accidently dropped it (wasn't bad, I knocked it off the table onto a carpet floor).

The heatsink seems more than adequate for 1.7W. Actually, it's close to 2W with freshly charged batteries. As the batteries run down it drops to about 1.2W before the output becomes unstable. I've had it on for a few minutes and it only gets slightly warm.

BTW: To anyone who does need to disassemble theirs, be careful when unscrewing the top part so that you don't twist the wires.


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## ThirstyTurtle (Jun 3, 2014)

Well I have a Tmack C11 445nm 3W on the way as well as a pair of the UVEX blue light goggles. Can't wait!


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## Tmack (Jun 3, 2014)

Parts should be here today


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## ThirstyTurtle (Jun 3, 2014)

I want a video of you frying a fly, Tmack.


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## Tmack (Jun 3, 2014)

Haha. You'll be frying flies soon!

For some reason I'm not able to post videos to you tube.


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## Tmack (Jun 3, 2014)

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=cp58pB8ixWM
Here's some lumia I did with a customer when he visited


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## Tmack (Jun 3, 2014)

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=aV-YhqC9zFc

This is a lumia box I made with a 1/3 rpm motor


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