# How effective are torches against aggressive dogs ?



## abvidledUK (Mar 4, 2006)

Went for a walk in the new snow last night in our local park, a couple of largish dogs approached us, I shone my quite bright 49 led torch at them (49 leds on) , from a foot or so away as they approached, didn't seem to have much effect.

One seemed to look away a bit, but wasn't distressed, as perhaps a human would be.

They were called away ok by owner.

Any suggestions, apart from a brighter torch / Gladius.

What are your experiences, perhaps from people who own dogs.

PS: I gather if a dog has you pinned down and is biting you, sticking a finger / torch up it's backside distracts it, again, anyone experience this. How effective is it ?


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## js (Mar 4, 2006)

Even 800 lumens in the face of my landlord's German Shepherd does not bother him in the least. The only thing that would REALLY bother a determined dog would be pepper spray or some other real force option. Despite what some here on the forum think, a bright light all by itself is NOT a defensive "weapon". In conjunction with other tools, it can be quite helpful and effective. But all by itself? Nah. Not really. It might buy you enough time (with a human--not a dog) to run, run away. But that's all.


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## abvidledUK (Mar 4, 2006)

js said:


> Even 800 lumens in the face of my landlord's German Shepherd does not bother him in the least. Despite what some here on the forum think, a bright light all by itself is NOT a defensive "weapon".



I thought as much, appreciated


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## jezzyp (Mar 4, 2006)

I think the cold metal of a 4D mag would be enough...


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## HarryN (Mar 4, 2006)

You would be surprised at just how tough an animal is, pet or wild. People are babies compared to even a normally lazy, but determined dog.


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## NickelPlate (Mar 4, 2006)

Depends on the dog I think. I've used them to shut up fenced-in barking dogs as I have walked passed peoples yards but have yet to use one on a potential dog attack. I'm inclined to think the dog isn't going to care if its intent is to harm you. All the more reason I keep my hand on a one-handed pocket knife if things get ugly.

Dave


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## Bravo25 (Mar 4, 2006)

From someone who had used a SL35, and Mark lV pepper spray on dogs. They love the pepper spray, and the light shows them where to lick. 

If you are going to carry a spray for animals, find one that is used for that. I would think that foam over spray would add some benefit in the blinding abilities.


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## yellow (Mar 4, 2006)

> PS: I gather if a dog has you pinned down and is biting you, sticking a finger / torch up it's


 WAAAAHHHH!!
Did You personally do something like that?
I always wonder if the posters of urban legends like this, have ever seen the animal they are referring to, from very very far away.

When walking around whith the last 2 our family dogs, I several times had to push/kick other dogs away. There were no great risks for any of them, as they were a German Shepard and then a German Longhair and the attackers where similar sized, but our dogs would have let themselves bitten to deat, they were just too nice.
However, dogs are moving this fast, that hitting their so said "weak points", is not that easy, as many ppl. tell You it is. In fact, even as I was totally ignored and the other dog war realtively stable because biting around the neck of mine, I would only give 50 % of my kicks and punches to just hit it, at least 10 % to hit where I wanted.
Even then several good hits were needed to show any effect on the dog, 
as posted above: "You would be surprised how tough an animal is".

Also watch a dog cracking bones; one real bite ot an arm sized bone and it is broken. Grant me, if a dog is ATTACKING You and already bites, there is nothing to do, than using Your arms and hands as targets to drive the dog away from vital points.
The usual encounter is just the "I am stronger than You"-little-bite, and if our skin would be stronger, than that would not be anything more than some pain.


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## OutdoorIdiot (Mar 4, 2006)

I use my sister's dog as an organic light meter, when comparing flashlights or checking how much life is left in the batteries.

I find it takes a lot to make him react. I expect dog's eyes react to very differently to different frequencies of light compared to humans. I remember reading a rumour that dogs see in black-and-white somewhere, but how anyone can prove this is beyond me!

Anyway, for the lurcher breed, here is the conversion data:

Disinterested: <500 lumens
Moderate interest: 500 lumens (e.g. SF M6 HOLA)
Blinking: ~800 lumens (e.g. cheap "1 million candlepower" thing)
Turning away: > 1000 lumens (e.g. car headlight)

I know this isn't accurate - you need to take into account the intensity of the beam, as well. Perhaps this is where Candlepower comes into it's own. I'll try to get that data, in case it's of any use.


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## Spin (Mar 4, 2006)

It may be illegal and/or it may not work against a dog but i carry a can of "Hornet-Wasp" spray.


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## dougmccoy (Mar 4, 2006)

I've some experience here and can emphatically say that if a large dog is intent on attacking you a flashlight is absolutely useless (unless used as an impact weapon!).

Dogs use three senses to attack you, one is sight, one smell and one is hearing. A dog's senses are considerably better than ours. As the animal is usually making a lunge at you (it's using its kinetic energy to its full advatage) it has already lost some of its cognitive functions. It will have been programmed by nature to endure damage and injury to enable it to survive better in a conflict and won't now be feeling pain as it normally might. (To illustrate this dogs were pitted against each other in the fighting ring but they continued to fight until one of them lay dead. In doing so they often sustained mortal injuries but didn't break off the fight until they had won) In aggression a dog reverts back to its primeval state and will usually keep an attack up until the victim is dead or completely submissive.

In the scenario that a large dog attacks you a flashlight will deny the dog its sight but it will still be able to locate you just as easily by smell and hearing. As the effect of a flashlight wont permanently deprive the dog of its vision for more than a few seconds then it is merely an inconvenience to the dog rather than anything else. Remember also that the dog will by instinct go for your face and throat (as this would allow it the quickest way of disabling you) and if you use your hands and arms as protection then the dog will simply bite these limbs whilst trying to get to your face.

I think it is important to remember that most dogs are, like us, trying to avoid a conflict which might cause them injury. An attack will normally occur only if we do something which the dog perceives as threatening it or its territory. If we intrude into its home or garden then it will probably attack. If it is loose then unless we try to contain it or stop it from going where it wants it usually wont attack us. The difficulty occurs if we are engaged in an activity which attracks it. Running or riding a bike is a typical situation where the dog sees a potential victim trying to escape from it and will therefore be programmed to chase the victim.

In essence the only sensible way of avoiding a dog which is intent on attacking you (as opposed to being friendly or curious) is to deprive it of at least two of its sensenses. For this type of situation a pepper spray is usually more than enough. The spray will deprive the animal of both its visual and olfactory senses and will inevitably lead the dog to breaking off the attack. Providing you are not disabled by a bite you will be able to escape from the animal which will no longer be trying to hurt/kill you.

Of course here in the UK we are up a gum tree! Due to the legislation over here pepper and mace sprays are illegal and we have to rely on the fact that most dogs which could potentially attack us are physically too small to cause life treatening injuries. However dog bites are and can be serious and can cause lead to all sorts of problems.

If the above post seems too long I hope that it may have imparted on you the fact that dogs can't be put off attacking you by a flashlight. The best they can do is to persuade an overly inquisitive dog that your not worth bothering with.

Doug


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## abvidledUK (Mar 4, 2006)

dougmccoy said:


> I've some experience here and can emphatically say that if a large dog is intent on attacking you a flashlight is absolutely useless (unless used as an impact weapon!).
> 
> I hope that it may have imparted on you the fact that dogs can't be put off attacking you by a flashlight. The best they can do is to persuade an overly inquisitive dog that your not worth bothering with.
> 
> Doug



Brilliant and in depth explanation, thanks


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## Macaw (Mar 4, 2006)

Does muzzle flash count as a "torch"? Then I recomment a Ruger SP-101 .357 Mag. 
Lots of muzzle flash!


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## dougmccoy (Mar 4, 2006)

If legal in the UK then I'd happily consider it!....LOL!

Doug


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## kennyj (Mar 4, 2006)

Many dogs won't like being beaned in the head with a big Maglite, Tigerlight (extra OC punch!) or big old Streamlight. I've seen such blows deter a number of dogs, but ANY animal set on making a meal out of you won't be deterred by any less than several bruised/broken bones. In the time it takes you to deal out that kind of damage with a blunt weapon on a small, fast moving animal, you could be mauled a few times over.

In the end, when possible, a barrier is the best defense against an animal. Humans are not as quick on the ground as most dogs (it's possible to outrun some, but most people are either too out-of-shape or overburdened with gear) but we do posess an overall mobility advantage. Dogs can't climb (much,) open doors or gates, or utilize vehicles of any sort. It's not hard to jump over a chain-link fence, even one much taller than you. Residential areas often have fenced-in yards with gates that aren't locked (few homeowners appreciate you using this option, but most won't begrudge you for it under the circumstances.) If you're capable of climbing trees, that tends to work as well.

One option I've thought about is to keep something that can be used to busy the dog's mouth. A stick might be sufficient for buying you a few seconds to follow up with something damaging, for instance. Some beef jerky in a vacuum-sealed wrapper might smell good enough that a dog might want it more than it wants you, and it should last long enough to give you a decent head start (walking, of course.) Additionally, beef jerky is innocuous to the point that there are almost no limitations whatsoever to their carry (ie. don't let anyone see you bringing it to a movie theater.)


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## Mrd 74 (Mar 4, 2006)

After 20 years with the post office I've found dog repellent to be effective on some dogs but not all of them and even the ones it did stop did not send them away yelping. They just kind of stop barking and back off squinting. On aggressive dogs I find a good walking stick to be effective as they don't like to come within striking distance, that being said I have had the odd one attack hard and fast, stick be damned. Thats when batting practice pays off, and keep swinging repeatedly because some take more than one hit to stop them.


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## JonSidneyB (Mar 4, 2006)

My dogs don't seem to be bothered by lights...I have to pull the beams up to keep them from looking into the beam...I think the flaming torch is better for this.


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## beezaur (Mar 4, 2006)

abvidledUK said:


> Any suggestions, apart from a brighter torch / Gladius.
> 
> What are your experiences, perhaps from people who own dogs.
> 
> PS: I gather if a dog has you pinned down and is biting you, sticking a finger / torch up it's backside distracts it, again, anyone experience this. How effective is it ?



I have a Gladius, and have tried it with my 95-lb German shepherd. You're not going to turn him away with the light, but he doesn't seem to be able to see through the strobe.

So I think you can use the Gladius (or any other suitably bright light) in the same way as with peope: to temporarily deny them the use of their optical guidance systems. Use the light like a matador uses his cape. You won't stop the "charge," but you can use the light to get out of the way if you are agile enough.

As for the rectal tactic, I wouldn't waste the effort. If you are being bitten, grab the dog's windpipe and twist. Dogs won't respond to anything short of baseline life function interference once they attack. You have to deny the dog air or blood circulation to the head, and keep doing that until after the dog has passed out and has actually died. If they pass out and you let go, they will come after you again when brain perfusion returns.

Attacks by large dogs are nothing to screw around with. If all you have is your bare hands, go for the neck and stay on it until one of you is dead.

Scott


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## Paul_in_Maryland (Mar 4, 2006)

On the Surefire stories page, When Animals Attack, there are three stories describing how a flashlight turned away a threatening dog:

Father's Day Gift...
10X Owner...
Angry Dog's Brakes...
Many years ago, as I was jogging one morning, a woman let her two large dogs out of her house to go to her car. When they saw me--in my fluorescent orange vest--they came bounding at me.

For years, I had planned what I'd do in this situation: Run TOWARD the dog, arms flailing, making loud fierce noises like a monster. Of course, like a handheld device that is supposed to turn you invisible, this tactic would either work or it wouldn't.

It did! They retreated. 

When I continued running, they came at me again. Onnce again I went at them like a banshee. Once again they retreated.

After that, I got me a telescoping steel night stick. I no longer own the night stick, but I wouldn't hesitate to try my flailing arm "banshee attack" again.

It's probably also a good idea to remove your belt, wrap it around your hand, and use the buckle end as a stand-off weapon--if you have the time and the presence of mind.


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## JonL (Mar 4, 2006)

That's funny, Paul...


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## ABTOMAT (Mar 4, 2006)

I recall a LEO my father knew had a dog tactic. Offer his left forarm, wrapped in a shirt or something, to the attacking dog. Then use the right hand to break the jaw if possible. Don't know how well it worked.


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## dougmccoy (Mar 4, 2006)

Whilst in attack mode most dogs are as stupid as a guy in a leotard they are not so stupid as to hold onto something which doesn't incapcitate the victim. If you watch dogs fight or have been unlucky enough to have witnessed a large dog attack a man you will have noticed the frenzied way they try to avoid contact with arms/legs and try to get at the head. A dog will always try to get a bite in and then let go. This being a quick way to 'bleed' a victim whilst trying to avoid injury to itself.

Man has actually learnt how to train dogs out of such action and in the UK police dogs are taught/encouraged to hold a victims arm until told to let go by the handler. Unfortunately this training doesn't always work and in many cases the dog reverts back to its natural instincts and bites where it shouldn't! In fact when the dog becomes so frenzied there have been numerous instances where the police dog has either turned on its handler or other police officers. It is for this reason that when UK police dogs are being deployed the handler usually goes first and in front of other police officers to avoid the dog having unnecessary targets!

Anecdotal stories about members of the special forces having been taught to kill dogs by the use of knives or by splaying both front legs outwards are seldom backed up by others. In reality even if the dog is killed the noise that it has created in its attack as well as injury to the SF operator will have thwarted the SF mission. It is for this reason that dogs are still so heavily relied on by Law enforcement and the military. Dogs are simply so useful and can't easily be deterrred from what mother nature equipped them to do.

I can't emphasise enough that light in itself is not a deterrent. Of course if you have used a light on a small dog successfully great. However, I strongly recommend you don't try it with a lage German Shepherd or Doberman.

Doug


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## sbothwell (Mar 4, 2006)

From owning dogs myself, I'd say the best use of a flashlight would be to let the dog's owner know you are there, and his dogs are approaching you. A secondary use would be to jam it in the dogs mouth - while its chewing on metal, its unlikely to be chewing your face. If you're thinking of whacking dogs with your flashlight, you're probably going to be looking at lost fingers.


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## voodoogreg (Mar 4, 2006)

This is a subject I hate, and have been in a good few times. In general just up front the best dog formula OC spray may or may not work (been there)
As a teen I delivered papers and had one idiot customer that thought it's big lab could stay tied up with thin nylon cord (which slips, when it wet or tugged REAL hard) it got off and nothing I did kept it from bitting a chuck outta my leg. Even when your 15 and think your bad that'll put the scare on you hard. I healed up went back a week later, armed with a sawed
ball bat and a squirt bottle of ammonia ( both recommendation's of the local PD) well it went fine for a few days then it got off again i was ready, I didn't like the idea of blinding it right off (still don't i like animals) so I hit it hard but not full force, all it did was turn it around stumble for a moment, and charge again. 

This time I put the bat with all i got (and at the time I lifted and raced
quarter midget's and Karts chest up i was pretty stout) down on top of it's head. it knocked it out for a few, enough for the screeching owner's to come to it's aid. Damn if it didn't get up wobbly and start barking while being led off.

I am a nice guy really!! but it stuck in my mind at 15 if something wants you, it will try till it can't process that "want" dig?

fast forward to 22 paying for my college in the family biz; collection/bond/ summon's serving.
Nice summer day in the middle of B.F.E. Indiana trying to repo on a writ of attachment for tool's, and I get the redneck banshee woman screaming no and then a rottie comes bolting to the door, she says get off the property or the screen door open's and fifi get's me, told her "NO PROBLEM!!! keep in mind, that the writ will go the the Co brown's and she will be in jail". told her I would not bother her again, real nice about it, said good day and started across the 15 yard or so fenced front lawn (dirt lawn) I here "clack, clack" and banshee 
screaming "you better not tell the dep ya dee!!!" slightly drowned out by what sounded like a Clydesdale at full trot. long story short i was carring light for summer, ran a few yard's to see if that would stop it's charge, when it didn't I took out my beretta 950 BS with hornady XTP JHP (If your laughing at the gauge you may need to read up on this load it's a little more then a weenie .25ACP) moved my line of fire to the right to clear the house safely,,, And put two in the chest one in the neck one clean threw the mouth.
Co came out did the whole scene arrested the woman, (here neighbor's saw it all) the SGT deputy wrote "unavoidable" asked how the hell I placed four shot's in a running dog? (answer: grandpa with 241 kills in WWII
taught me since I was 10) BUT the most important thing is it didn't draw
the two legged predators out with gun's.

This may all sound billy the kidd to all those guys that love gun's W/silly avatars in a ready stance with there pistol's, But two thing's: never  think a stick or a spray much less a flashlight will chill a dog out, and if there is danger of dog attack in your hood call the cops over and over till it's not there. 2nd thing, I have been shot once stabbed twice, but nothing ever scared me more then a poor dumb animal trained by dumb people
to do a coward's bidding. I like you guy's, so use your head! VDG


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## phil_vr (Mar 4, 2006)

A first hand experience by a friend of mine practically saved his leg from a
manic pitbul. He was walking with his wife when he saw a loose pitbul coming
his way. He practically froze since at that time whether you stop to think or
you are taken over by enstict (he got hold of the first). By that time the
pitbul would have grabbed his right leg and wouldnt let go. 
Speaking of enstict, instead of trying to force the dog back or hit it, he got 
a minimag he had in his pocket and stick it into the animals eye. It worked like
a gun. The animal spread in flea from pain obviously and it didnt came close.

My friend had to make a few stitches to his leg as well as he got a shot
for infection. So they seem to have a weak spot after all. I guess this 
could also work even without a flashlight, for what I know everyone carries
a bunch of keys which could be used as well.

If a flashlight cant keep the animal away, then it is good to have in mind
for what comes next and be prepared.

Brutal it seems, and I love animals as I have a Husky myself. But when a life
and a serious injury is at stake, then morals go aside.


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## WAVE_PARTICLE (Mar 4, 2006)

Mental note: Don't **** off VDG  

Personally, I don't like large dogs. All I think a flashlight will do to a mad dog is just **** it off even more.


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## kennyj (Mar 4, 2006)

VDG: Best post I've read all day.


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## cobra-ak (Mar 4, 2006)

I was riding my bike late at night and two stray dogs start running near me about 15 feet away, I whipped out my E2L and shone it on 1 dog right on his face, lucky the other dog left the first dog. I dont think the light had an effect.


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## NewBie (Mar 4, 2006)

Back in the 1970's when I delivered papers, in our small town, folks used to leave their dogs loose alot.

As such, I was the target of opportunity for many an attack.

What I noticed over many attacks, is that dogs like to attack the item closest to them. I soon learned to hold a rolled up newspaper between me and them. They would attack the paper, and as long as I kept ahold of it, things were fine. 

After awhile, I started carrying a 5D Mag, and several occasions, I offered up the Mag, and they bit into that, and they really didn't like biting down on the metal.... They would disengage quickly.

Another time I was taken by surprise, around a corner, and he went for the lower leg...luckily I was wearing rather tough rubber boots, which prevented alot of the possible injury. A nasty sounding crack of crunching bone on it's head from the MagLite, had it holler'n and yelping into the distance.

Pretty tough fella at that, I was amazed.

P.S. I wouldn't try this with an ARC AA....


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## abvidledUK (Mar 4, 2006)

Paul_in_Maryland said:


> It's probably also a good idea to remove your belt, wrap it around your hand, and use the buckle end as a stand-off weapon--if you have the time and the presence of mind.



Wouldn't that expose your privates to attack, and stop you running away, as your pants fell down ?


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## lexina (Mar 4, 2006)

abvidledUK said:


> Wouldn't that expose your privates to attack, and stop you running away, as your pants fell down ?


 
That's really funny!:laughing:


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## Flakey (Mar 4, 2006)

i have found that the coyotes in my area dont like 1300 lumen light from my mag35. they dont run away, just kind of let out a little yelp when the light is turned on, and then kind of trott away from me .... i didnt look like the eisiest meal i guess.


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## Templar223 (Mar 5, 2006)

If I knew I would be going up against an aggressive dog, my weapon of choice would be a 12 gauge with buckshot.

For "surprise" encounters, each situation is different.

Story time: I had a pair of very aggressive full-size Rotties come charging around an SUV at a campground about four years ago. I heard the growl and began drawing my Beretta 92 and my SureFire 6P as soon as I heard them coming, while stepping around a 9 year old blind girl who was walking with us so she wouldn't be the first person the dogs got to.

The snarling dogs, unsecured in a public campground on a holiday weekend, were just at the back of the SUV when the owner called them off. Honestly, while I had the gun out, I didn't have a sight picture yet and I would have had about fifteen feet or less to take out two charging dogs. 

Now I'm good, but I'm not sure I'm that good. Thankfully, the owner called them off - albeit pissed that someone had a gun out "threatening to shoot" his dogs. Damn right. Would have shot both of them dead if they had continued their course and they hadn't got me first.

Many don't have a gun - and in those cases, your best defense is to not be there. Failing that, go for the dog's throat or the loose skin around the neck. Pick them off the ground if you can (they really don't like that), kick them in the balls then throw them as far as you can then RUN! Or, if you have a knife, try to stab the dog to death. Yeah, the odds don't favor you, but it's better to die trying than die a coward.

John


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## Lee1959 (Mar 5, 2006)

I have personal experience that a 6 C Cell maglight will stop even the most determined dog when used upon their cranium a few times. I have had to do this twice, once with a flashlight in the city, and once when I was a kid on a bike and happened to have my Loiusville Slugger, both worked satifactorily. Now I would be tempted to use my pistol since I now have a CCW. But a maglight works well enough in a pinch.


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## Pook (Mar 5, 2006)

Untill he passed away last year I used to walk my pet ferret on a lead (leash) everyday down to the local park and back... Yes i did get some strange looks 

But at least 90% of people would come over and after a little assurance that he was very tame they would stroke him and think he was an adorable little monkey....

Inspite of their size (or lack there of) dogs are wierdly terrified of ferrets - its presumably down to the pheromone-tastic bouquet given off by the wee viscous mini-mammals.

So thats your answer - dont take a torch, shot gun or pepper spray, just give your self a quick rub down with a ferret beffore every trip 

Piers


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## Mike Painter (Mar 5, 2006)

I used to walk with the next door neighbor's dog and he was the king dog in this town. Any dog that came out at me he promptly put back on their property and they never argued with him.
The effect was good for a night or two. If I was alone and the dogs came out I would yell the dog's name and the "attacking" dogs would run back onto their land, sit and look up the street.

For Pink Panther fans I had a cop slow down one night and advise me the dog should be on a chain. I had the chance to say "He's not my dog."


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## edakoppo (Mar 6, 2006)

A good quality cane or walking stick (not drug store/prescription stuff) will do more to impress a dog than a light. While a larger Mag can certainly be used to pound on a dog, the light only bothers them if they're not determined. A stick held lengthwise between you and a dog will get them to slow down if not stop--they understand extending your reach.

This has the added bonus of making you a little more stable when walking in wet weather, and for now (IIRC) being legal in the UK. Canes are also useful against 2-legged predators.


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## fieldops (Mar 7, 2006)

We had problems in our old neighborhood with dogs many years back. I really did not want to shoot one with an AR-15, and chemical sprays were less common. One night after doing plumbing at home, I decided to bring my Bernzomatic gas torch (with the piezo electric start) with me for the nightly walk. Sure enough one of the Doberman's tried to get at me. I pulled out the Bernzo and pulled the trigger. I guess even domesticated dogs are still instinctively afraid of fire. The minute he heard the gas rushing and saw the flame come out, he split. It was an unfortunate situation, but thankfully it worked. Now I just pack the Springfield 1911 for walks. Forget the flashlight for defense, just use it for light. I'm glad to be out of that neighborhood :sweat:


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## abvidledUK (Mar 7, 2006)

fieldops said:


> One night after doing plumbing at home, I decided to bring my Bernzomatic gas torch (with the piezo electric start) with me for the nightly walk. Sure enough one of the Doberman's tried to get at me. I pulled out the Bernzo and pulled the trigger. I guess even domesticated dogs are still instinctively afraid of fire. The minute he heard the gas rushing and saw the flame come out, he split.



Now that does sound like a good idea,,


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## John N (Mar 7, 2006)

FWIW, we covered this in this post:

Flashlight vs. Dog? 

-john


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## mdocod (Mar 7, 2006)

when I was a baby (story told to me by parents)... we were on a camping trip with a rented pop-up camper. they had me sleeping on one of the pullout beds... My parents didn't quite know how to fully set-up the camper correctly... they missed the straps that hold the canvas snug under the pullout bed. In the middle of the night, dad heard snarling and growling outside, discovered me asleep with my head hanging out of the camper between the side of the bed and the canvas... he quickly pulled me in and took a look outside, several ceyotes were walking around outside the camper....

aparantly, I was unharmed by the situation- but I wonder if the situation had a weird sort of blessing... My entire life, I have never had a fear of dogs. in my childhood, when neighborhood dogs would try to come running at me, I would run right back at them, arms flailing, yelling. They always turned back... when I was on my bike I would do the same thing- when a dog would come running out of a yard I would simply skid the bike in a 180 and full power in the dog direction.

Several times while delivering pizza... the owner tries to open the door slightly to keep the dog in while they do the exchange. upon recieving the pizza, they always realize at this point (too late) that the pizza needs to remain flat, and will only fit through the door if it is opened... on 2 occassions, semi-agressive medium-sized dogs have been let loose on me in this fasion, in both cases I quickly grabbed the dog by the neck and forced it too the ground (overpowering it), when being restrained the dogs have momentarily calmed themselves enough to listen to the owner and retreat to the interior... 

I would NEVER try to outrun a dog... the reason for this is my experience with the cocker spanial I grew up with with. (small household dog, ~25lbs). When my father and I would go bicycling through the trails in the bluffs behind the house, we would bring the cocker along with us... I used to have a little speedo attatched to the handle-bar (magnet type, counts revolutions per second and calculated speed based on tire diameter)... Down several dirt roads we would cruise at speeds in eccess of 30mph. Not to be outdone by her owners, that little cocker would be motering right along side us, keeping pace. (those little legs could really move!)... I don't think there's a human on the planet that could outrun or out-menuever a fit dog.


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## evanlocc (Mar 7, 2006)

mdocod said:


> ...... in my childhood, when neighborhood dogs would try to come running at me, I would run right back at them, arms flailing, yelling. They always turned back... when I was on my bike I would do the same thing- when a dog would come running out of a yard I would simply skid the bike in a 180 and full power in the dog direction.
> 
> ....



Agreed, there was once i remember. I and my friend having a morning walk and there were 5 to 8 dogs heading toward us. In that No Where To Run situation, we decide to jump toward the dogs. We raised our hand and jump like put on spring shoe. Yes all the doggies turned back and run away. 

May be there were just scared by the suddent change of human behave. We do the unexpect move.


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## abvidledUK (Mar 7, 2006)

John N said:


> FWIW, we covered this in this post:
> 
> Flashlight vs. Dog?
> 
> -john



If I'd not searched torch dog I may have found this..

But then won't let me search for 3 letter words


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## John N (Mar 7, 2006)

You have to wildcard it. Search for *dog instead of dog. Then again, search only goes so far back. I was lucky this one was within search range.

-john


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## cheapo (Mar 7, 2006)

FLASHLIGHTS DONT HELP AGAINST DOGS AT ALL.... I was getting chased by a dog ( maybe 1 ft tall, but really vicious) and I beamed it with my amilite and it did nothing other than make it mad and run faster.

-David


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## nc987 (Mar 7, 2006)

A dogs eyesight is very poor, knowing this, disabling an animal with poor eyesight by means of a bright light is a very ineffective way of dealing with the problem. 

Dogs have good hearing and can hear at frequencies above our own. This is why one of the best deterrents to a dog is a tool that emits a very high frequency shrill sound to the dog that us humans cant even hear. 

If a dog has made the choice to attack, it will attack regardless or what you do unless what you do includes shooting it or some other way of physically maiming the animal. When a dog decides to attack it has made the commitment to do this knowing its risking personaly injury to itself. Photons wont stop it. 

After many experiences with dogs flashlights are generally pointless unless you got a SureFire E2D and manage to rip out the dogs eyeball on your first try. Dogs have thick skulls and most hard whacks from a flashlight arent going to do a damn thing.


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## cyberhobo (Mar 8, 2006)

Against an agressive dog, *NOT AT ALL EFFECTIVE!*

A dogs eyesight at night (when you will probably be carring a flashlight) is not at all poor. A dog gathers light very well a night, better than a human.


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## nc987 (Mar 8, 2006)

Dogs can barely differentiate between colors, they see them in sepia hues. Their depth perception is not as good as ours either. 

Humans have binocular vision where as dogs have lateral vision. Dogs do have a greater field of vision due to the placement of their eyes and the shape of their skull. 

However because of evolution, dogs sight is much more dependent on movement. They dont see small details set against a backdrop as well, but are much more keen to moving objects.

But as the poster above noted, at night dogs have better sight due to a special membrane that allows them to gather more light.


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## hquan (Mar 8, 2006)

You may want to check out this site:

http://www.dogpsychologycenter.com/

this guy is simply amazing. They've filmed him going into situations where dogs are red-zoned and are about to be put down for being too vicious to anyone but the owners - and come out on top, with no bites.

I don't think that his approach would work with a dog in mid leap - but I do think that his approach would prevent things from getting to that point.


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## woodfluter (Mar 9, 2006)

I grew up in the company of Dobermans and feel very comfortable around large dogs. I customarily approach and at least attempt to touch most strange dogs that I encounter. I have been bitten only a few times, only once when I didn't know it was coming (German shephard approaching at 5 o'clock while I was on a bicycle, stopped at a light) and apart from that, *never once* by an unknown dog - only those that knew me and were afraid of something I needed to do with them.

This has occasionally included some things I wouldn't recommend to anyone, including patiently gaining the trust of dogs guarding fenced car lots and dogs left in autos.

A friend, observing such behavior, took me to task and told me that I had just been "lucky so far". After 50+ years of this and the number of dogs involved probably numbering in the tens of thousands, this is statistically improbable.

I have seen people bitten by dogs. Invariably, they have shown fear, run away, tried to threaten or attack the dog, acted before ascertaining the dog's mood, or behaved in an erratic manner. While running toward the dog and wildly waving your arms might sometimes work, I really don't think this is a reliable approach. You will only weird the dog out and make him think you might be crazy and dangerous - and respond either by avoiding you or attacking, depending on personality and inclination.

For aggressive dogs while on foot, I have found that looking them directly in the eye and speaking calmly has always worked. The eye contact part runs counter to some advice I have read, but it works for me. If pressed for an explanation, I might speculate that they know that you really aren't a dog, don't expect canine submissive gestures, and understand that the humans they trust and obey do make eye contact. But I just do that because it instinctively seems right. Most aggresive encounters I've seen don't start as an all-out attack, but rather escalate to that if the response is threatening or fearful. I think you are probably better off taking an initial nip without reaction rather than whacking them, but not always.

While on a bicycle, I believe any fit rider can outrun a dog on the level or downhill. Uphill is a different matter, but stuff like mace or pepper spray is just plain ridiculous - the contents of a water bottle delivered directly into the face at close range has never failed in my experience. They just hate that. Or you could carry a ferret and swing that at them!:naughty: 

The dogs I have known have excellent vision. They are more drawn to movement, but hey, so am I - that's why I can never find anything on a grocery store shelf! They sometimes give an impression of having poor eyesight because they are preoccupied with scent.

Obligatory light content: You could whip out a Surefire and calmly explain the functioning of the two-stage tailcap to the dog, thereby distracting yourself and quieting your nerves...

OK, that was unnecessarily nasty...


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## idleprocess (Mar 9, 2006)

In my experience, the only dogs that are deterred by bright lights are small dogs that are only brave enough to nip you when your back is turned, then run like the wind. You know the type - too big to be "ankle-biters," nowhere near big enough to threaten a person. Most of the time, if one of these little nuisances is following you, it will turn back when you turn to face it... a flash in the face is just another reminder that the big bad human neither fears nor cares about its yapping and will do what it pleases because it's far stronger, so hurry along little yapping dog before you earn a swift kick for being foolish.

Heh. Sorry - there are a number of dogs like that in my parents' hometown and it's funny in tragic way how they try so hard to enforce their turf but it's all an act that assumes you're just going to keep on walking.

I wouldn't use a flashlight as a light source to deter a large dog. They don't really need eyesight to close in those last few yards since they can hear you more than well enough to locate you...

A big cat on the other hand... Cats are solitary, so they tend to be more cautious. They're a bit more dependent on eyesight and not quite so prone to mindless aggression like dogs. My understanding is that most big cats can be driven off by doing something disorienting like making noise, flashing them with a light, appearing to become larger, etc; so long as they're not attacking you. If they've pounced, you need to fight them quite fiercely.


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## voodoogreg (Mar 9, 2006)

EDIT: Tried to use the quote function but got locked up every time i tried

Dear Woodfluter,

I'll tell ya friend the "math" has counted in your favor, I think your correct in
Some of the "show no fear" tactics do work, as I said in my post I did a lot
Of field work that involved going to the property/the door and encountered
Many dog's, and often had to call animal control. Their stories are pretty vivid
And despite what people think of the "dogcatcher" ideal, most do it cause they love animals, not hate them.
I have seen dog's that stayed calm while AC talked with the owner's, petted the dog's, and I did my business, that bolted after the AC left the yard with an invisible fence collar on, ending after trying call it by name, hands at his side till it was necessary to use the rope stick, net or hot shot.
Not one of the animal control people or vet's I have asked say "give the charging dog some time for the crocodile Dundee technique's to work"
They say domestic dog's that react this way have been abused, mistreated,
Not properly trained and disciplined, ignored, or more increasingly bred so that it's primordial instinct is all it has left. And most of this is lies at the owner's (and to a lesser extent breeder's) feet.

There is a reason why organized poachers and not the mountain gorillas killed a true scientist like Diane Fossey, and Timothy Treadwell got ate
By the bear's he just had to play with. Different animal’s different level's of cognitive function.

am not belittleing your experiance, just think your advice could possably result in harm to other's.

One other thing to my post and insight into my limited knowledge of
domestic and wild animals, I have a long time good friend named joe taft that run's a sancuary for big cats as in lion's, tiger's, mountain lion's and leopard's.
He saves them from idiot's that bought them thinking how cool a big cat would be in there back yard, circus' etc. 

The Exotic Feline Rescue Center 
http://www.exoticfelinerescuecenter.org/animals.html 

I spent many a day in and out of cage's with a very limited few of these beautiful creature's, always with joe, while many even joe can't get in with
(one of my most treasured photo's is of my daughter at age 4 or 5 holding a three week old baby tiger  )
And I can tell you joe know's his stuff and would say the same thing. VDG


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## voodoogreg (Mar 9, 2006)

idleprocess said:


> A big cat on the other hand... Cats are solitary, so they tend to be more cautious. They're a bit more dependent on eyesight and not quite so prone to mindless aggression like dogs. My understanding is that most big cats can be driven off by doing something disorienting like making noise, flashing them with a light, appearing to become larger, etc; so long as they're not attacking you. If they've pounced, you need to fight them quite fiercely.



Nope, rarely would any of that work if it has made up it's mind. And the fight will be very short for the cat. See above post. VDG


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## idleprocess (Mar 9, 2006)

Hm, so much for the advice that I've seen printed in a number of backpacking guides about dealing with mountain lions or bobcats...


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## nc987 (Mar 9, 2006)

Actually alot of that is recommended. Cats size up their game and are very methodical in how they go about making an attack. If the prey does something unpredictable a cat wont risk it self in a situation where it doesnt feel it has an outright advantage. Cats will almost always use the element of surprise to attack, once that has been lost making yourself bigger, yelling, throwing rocks, etc will frighten off (not always) a cat because its not sure how to go about attacking you. 

Think about it, how many animals that are prey to mountain lions put a fight? Just about none. Mountain lions wont attack animals like bears or wolverines, they eat things like deers, that run away and when caught dont put up much of a fight. Chances are if you spend a decent amount of time in the woods, youve been near a mountain lion that was watching you and never knew it.


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## voodoogreg (Mar 9, 2006)

nc987 said:


> Actually alot of that is recommended. Cats size up their game and are very methodical in how they go about making an attack. If the prey does something unpredictable a cat wont risk it self in a situation where it doesnt feel it has an outright advantage. Cats will almost always use the element of surprise to attack, once that has been lost making yourself bigger, yelling, throwing rocks, etc will frighten off (not always) a cat because its not sure how to go about attacking you.
> 
> Think about it, how many animals that are prey to mountain lions put a fight? Just about none. Mountain lions wont attack animals like bears or wolverines, they eat things like deers, that run away and when caught dont put up much of a fight. Chances are if you spend a decent amount of time in the woods, youve been near a mountain lion that was watching you and never knew it.



much of that is true in regard to mountain lion's and esp Bobcat and i was remise in generalizing it all as "big cat's". The problem with the mountain lion
is it's temperment in it's territory. most like any animal will avoid man if it's
unsure of what it is doing around it. But once it feels threat and see's an encounter as survival, all the kicking screaming and throwing thing's won't
shut down that instinct. mountain lion's are the least predictable of the cat's mentioned. And many think that because it's smaller then other big cat's it's
less lethal, which is wrong, it's paw strike shearing strength is like swinging a 10 lbs sledge with a garden hoe attached to it,or so joe says. It's the one cat joe has rarely been able to go in to it's area because of this.
and we are talking about "encounter's" with dog's being too close,
the same applies to cat's stay far enough away and nothing happen's, but the thread was about fending off a dog. come up on an animal, dog or big cat, the surprize is going to trigger flight or fight response and which odd's
I wouldn't care to find out which the animal pick's.
anyone that lives in southern california like i did know's that every year turn's up a dead hiker or two. hiking/wild life book's do have the problem
of repeating the same defense's as the old "hit the shark on the nose and it will swim away" info published for decades.
This is getting a little OT and burned out but the point is assume the worst and stay away from any harm. VDG
.


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## dougmccoy (Mar 9, 2006)

Without wanting to venture off topic much more I would pickup on my earlier posts and in particular to greg's last post. Any animal ,wild or domestic, has been biologically programmed to survive conflict. This instinct has been in existance since the dawn of time and isn't likely to ever disappear. The fight and flight response can invoke tremendous strength in a subject and the chemical and hormonal rushes which occur are ill understood even now.

Some of the stories of animals or people doing amazing things in stress situations are the stuff that sells newspapers! However, if any of you come into contact with a wild ferral cat you will personally see how effective the survival instincts are!!


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## EV_007 (Mar 9, 2006)

I think the light in the animal’s eyes benefits you in identifying the animal. Large dogs barking in the shadows have been hit with the momentary blast from my P61 (120 lumens) bulb and they keep barking and do not turn away. They pause for a moment cuz you are standing your ground, not the light in their eyes?



[font=&quot]Bearspray with its longer “throw” and volume should do the trick. I bet it works well against the sensitive nose of a cougar as well, provided it hasn’t pounced ya first. LOL Oh, the compact .40 with Hydrashok as backup WILL deter the attack.[/font]


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## kennyj (Mar 9, 2006)

Ahh yes... when all else fails, Glock-Fu rises on top!


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## woodfluter (Mar 9, 2006)

voodoogreg said:


> Dear Woodfluter,
> I'll tell ya friend the "math" has counted in your favor, I think your correct in
> Some of the "show no fear" tactics do work, as I said in my post I did a lot
> Of field work that involved going to the property/the door and encountered
> ...


 
I really think we agree about most of what you said, but just to make it clearer, I wasn't suggesting that people should approach every dog, or that any and all attack situations could be resolved peacefully. Rather, I think most attacks can be avoided or an aggressive situation defused by remaining calm. And that you have to know how to read them - to understand what dogs to leave alone and which will come around, and when an attack is totally beyond control.

Dogs have learned that humans have unfathomable powers: we get food without effort, we transport them in vehicles, we can hurt them from a distance. If you are panicky, they will invariably see you as someone who isn't in control. If you are calm, they will *tend* to view you as someone who really does have a way of dealing with them and usually stop short. I just know that the alternatives of cowering, running or acting wild will often inflame them, make you seem vulnerable. And escalating the situation by counterattacking is, I think, more risky most of the time unless you have a firearm and really intend to shoot it. Also mostly unnecessary. But if someone has trained a dog to attack and sets them on you, I agree, all bets are off!

Thanks and all the best to you...


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## Reid (Jun 5, 2007)

nc987 said:


> Actually alot of that is recommended. Cats size up their game and are very methodical in how they go about making an attack. If the prey does something unpredictable a cat wont risk it self in a situation where it doesnt feel it has an outright advantage. Cats will almost always use the element of surprise to attack, once that has been lost making yourself bigger, yelling, throwing rocks, etc will frighten off (not always) a cat because its not sure how to go about attacking you.
> 
> Think about it, how many animals that are prey to mountain lions put a fight? Just about none. Mountain lions wont attack animals like bears or wolverines, they eat things like deers, that run away and when caught dont put up much of a fight. Chances are if you spend a decent amount of time in the woods, youve been near a mountain lion that was watching you and never knew it.


CATS are very dangerous. My 20lb mongrel was nearly done in by cats. Not just any cats; they were a neighbor's three cats. Momma cat and her two year-old offspring. Don't laugh. I got hurt too (gouged arms).

I let Petey nose around in the cat's yard. He was in the center of the lawn, about thirty feet from me.
I noted the sudden deployment of three cats. They triangulated. The mother cat was the ringleader, her two kits went off on tangents from her slink. It was all over in less than a minute. 

I was watching, stupidly amused. Positions obtained, the three rushed in for the kill, all at one instant, perfectly synchronous arrivals. My dog hadn't even sensed the cats' presence---to busy looking for pee spots. We both yelped some pretty good.
He was slashed and so was I in extricating him from the feline furies. 

----------

Pete redeemed his honor a few weeks or months later. 
In the same neighborhood--we were walking. From nowhere I knew of, two Rottweilers ambled rapidly our way. They were free-ranging, no owner. 
Pete was on the leash. I did the "well hello pups!" familiarity act.
I would not show fear, but I was worried. 
The dogs arrived and turned their attention to the ten inch tall Pete-dog. Good. They were only curious. One sniffed Pete's nose, the other, his tail. Pete felt whatever---that was one two many inspectors at once.

He turned and exploded furiously at the butt-end Rott.
BOTH Rottweilders flew back as if by some explosive power. They bounded out of Pete's reach, and trotted off,
looking over their shoulders to see he wasn't following. Dogs don't see size when adjudging a risk factor?

Two stupid stories. 
After reading this thread I'm going to be a smarter dog walker. I can -generally- make instant friends with such dogs as I meet. But, damn those big cats---the ones in the seven to twelve pound league. I would sooner face a dozen feral Corgis !:duh2:


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## GreySave (Jun 5, 2007)

<< CATS are very dangerous. >>

You are more correct than you realize. Allow me to insert CERT training and working experiences with animals into this thread....

Cat bites are for more dangerous than dog bites. A dog bite will do more physical damage, but a cat's needle teeth with bite deep and deliver bacteria far deeper into the tissue than you may be able to clean out yourself. Unless one is REALLY sure that you cleaned out any bite wounds completely the best advice is to get any bitten animal to the vet and any human victims to a doctor or emergency room to have the wounds handled by professionals. At the very least be very alert for any possible infections and take action immediately if something does not look quite right.


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## kennyj (Jun 5, 2007)

Reid said:


> CATS are very dangerous.









All I know is that if I see this sucker coming at me, I'm running the hell away!


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## Reid (Jun 5, 2007)

I know that anigif movie. Very funny!

Here is the cat I took over for (to serve it) when my ninety-two year old neighbor died last year.

It lives outdoors, and you do not pet this cat.
It is fully fifteen years old.
This is the expression it always puts on when you are within ten feet, but not bearing food.
This really is how it always looks at humans. Get some distance away, he relaxes and looks...well, normal.

Back to the thread topic... no more hijacking...it only seemed "done". 

Here it is. This is not a snapshot. It's how his face is frozen whenever you are around.

How's your mood, O fearsome cat?


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## the servents of twilight (Jun 5, 2007)

I think that your best defense against an aggressive dog (or any dog) is not to be afraid. They smell fear, and they react.


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## Confederate (Jun 5, 2007)

I had a friend who was a federal agent. His partner emptied a 5-shot .38 at a small yapper that was tearing up his ankles. Didn't hit it once.

A strong light can temporarily blind both man and beast, but you'd best use the time it gains you wisely. Don't just flash and run; flash and go for a blow to the throat or crotch of a human. With a dog, your best bet is a swift kick in the head, then ribs. If you can get your belt off, that's the next best.

As always, look around for some sort of weapon. While you may outrun a human, it's unlikely that you'll be able to outrun a dog. Trash cans, trash can tops, opening an umbrella; there are all sorts of creative stuff you can do. Just give it some thought before it happens.


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## Outdoors Fanatic (Jun 6, 2007)

www.taser.com


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## NA8 (Jun 6, 2007)

Confederate said:


> I had a friend who was a federal agent. His partner emptied a 5-shot .38 at a small yapper that was tearing up his ankles. Didn't hit it once.



There was a story in the paper about a cop who shot a pitbull about 15 times with a 9mm issue pistol. Dog ran all the way home, curled up on it's blanket bed, and died there. Maybe carrying dog biscuits would work better


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## TORCH_BOY (Jun 6, 2007)

If shining the torch won't deter the dog, throwing it will


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## DM51 (Jun 6, 2007)

Confederate said:


> I had a friend who was a federal agent. His partner emptied a 5-shot .38 at a small yapper that was tearing up his ankles. Didn't hit it once.


LOL. Wish I could have seen that - must have looked like a comedy act. Lucky he didn't shoot his own feet.


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## ensile (Jun 6, 2007)

I felt bad for the k9 that copped beamshots a few months ago, it was on a couch and just had this Deer in headlights look on its face, i lolled because of the lumens that must have been burning through the eyeballs, i shouldnt compare my potential reactions from such abuse to a dog, but it's hard not to get the feeling like "ouch, that must be hurting, but it's just too crazy and interested to look away"... ah animals..


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## KoiSG (Jun 6, 2007)

LOL


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## knot (Jun 6, 2007)

An ROP held at close range to the dog's nose should work.


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## The Shadow (Jun 6, 2007)

Templar223 said:


> Or, if you have a knife, try to stab the dog to death. Yeah, the odds don't favor you, but it's better to die trying than die a coward.



OK, I've got to ask - has anyone here actually fought off an attacking dog with a knife? I've encountered some unleashed dogs on my walks and luckily they've been friendly. But in the back of my mind I'm always thinking "what if?" I'd like to have a solution in mind before running into that situation, without feeling like I've got to arm myself every time I go out. A lot of us here EDC folding knives with 3 to 4 inch locking blades. Anyone have the unfortunate experience of defending yourself like this, and if so, how did you do?

Idiot owners who let their dogs run wild are a different story. :scowl:


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## knot (Jun 6, 2007)

I have watched a sharp snapping blow to the nose of a dog, with a walking stick, work.




> How to Stop a Dog Attack
> Spot the warning signs, and take these steps
> 
> by Teri Walsh
> ...


 more: http://www.prevention.com/article/0,5778,s1-6-81-31-712-1,00.html


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## the servents of twilight (Jun 6, 2007)

I can tell you from personal experience that the ROP LO setup does absolutely nothing to aggressive woodchucks. My dog could tell you the same thing, but he don't talk much.


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## knot (Jun 6, 2007)

the servents of twilight said:


> I can tell you from personal experience that the ROP LO setup does absolutely nothing to aggressive woodchucks. My dog could tell you the same thing, but he don't talk much.



An ROP can burn. That was my point. A dog's nose is sensitive. 

Bear spray would probably be most effective


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## DM51 (Jun 6, 2007)

The Shadow said:


> OK, I've got to ask - has anyone here actually fought off an attacking dog with a knife? I've encountered some unleashed dogs on my walks and luckily they've been friendly. But in the back of my mind I'm always thinking "what if?" I'd like to have a solution in mind before running into that situation, without feeling like I've got to arm myself every time I go out. A lot of us here EDC folding knives with 3 to 4 inch locking blades. Anyone have the unfortunate experience of defending yourself like this, and if so, how did you do?


I had to do it once. You can tell when they mean it by the way they come at you. Most of the time you can tell it's just bluff, but somehow you just know when it isn't and they aren't going to stop. One problem with a big dog, and this was a German Shepherd, is you don't anticipate how quick and strong they are, and how much momentum they have when they hit you. I knelt down on my right knee, put my left forearm well forward to block the dog. It's pretty instinctive to put the less important arm forward anyway, and it's right. It took that forearm as the nearest part of me. My knife in my right hand, up into the dog's throat. Not very nice, but it worked.


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## NA8 (Jun 6, 2007)

DM51 said:


> It took that forearm as the nearest part of me. My knife in my right hand, up into the dog's throat. Not very nice, but it worked.



Now that's helpful. If you could get your right arm out of your coat and wrap it quick around your left forearm you might even come away with a working arm.


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## Toohotruk (Jun 7, 2007)

My little brother once had a cat...this thing came straight from Hell, it was the meanest, nastiest, 7 lb. beast I have ever known. It was a Siamese...one of the most beautiful cats I have ever seen, bright blue eyes, gorgeous coat and some of the sharpest teeth I have ever felt! And I have the scars to prove it!

He used to get up on the back of the couch and bite visitor's ears...I'm talking drawing blood. He would also come up and lay down beside you on the couch and rub up against you...you know, like a "normal" sane cat would. If you reached down to pet him, (and at first, you really wanted to, because he was a stunningly beautiful animal and I really do love animals) he would bite you...if you just sat there without moving, he would bite you. Sometimes, when you walked across the room, he would run up behind you and bite your ankles, or the calves of your legs and draw blood.

One day, I was sitting there on the couch, not paying attention and I put my arm up on the back of the couch without looking and my hand landed right in front of the demon's face!  You know, when most cats bite, they do it quick, then they release and they're gone...not this one. He sunk his choppers into my thumb clear to the bone, then he shook his head back and forth, growling through the whole thing. Well, after I came back from mopping up the blood and bandaging my thumb, I saw that little evil SOB sitting under the edge of the coffee table (obviously savoring the taste of my blood)...so I couldn't resist giving him a good boot as I walked by! Well, I made it about 5 or 6 more feet before he had hold of my pantleg, ripping his head around, growling and spitting and clawing...it was a damn good thing I wasn't wearing shorts! Pretty weird behavior for a house cat, don't you think?

Anyway, when my brother went on his honeymoon, he asked me to take care of his place while he was gone...getting mail, watering plants, picking up the paper and you guessed it...throwing raw meat to the Devil's spawn! 

Well, the first day I went over there, I got the mail, picked up the paper and watered the plants...all the while, keeping an eye open for the evil beast. When I put food down for the thing, he came in, hissed at me then started eating. Just then the phone rang, it was my brother and by the time I got off the phone, the damn cat got between me and the front door and that was the only way out!

Let me tell you that up to that point, I have never been afraid of a damned house cat in my whole life! But as I stood there with that rotten MFer staring me down, growling, just daring me to try to walk by, I actually started to get worried! And as my eye wandered to my brother's golf clubs, nearly within reach, I recalled the promise I had made my brother mere moments before on the phone, that I "would NOT kill his stupid cat!" It was one of the hardest things I ever did, to NOT grab his 9 iron and go up side of that infernal creatures head! Instead, I grabbed one of the golf balls and tossed it at him...not hurling it right at him at maximum velocity, mind you, I just tossed it toward him, so it bounced around _near _him. Thankfully, he ran off and I took the opportunity to make my way out the door very quickly.

Long story, longer...the next day, I brought my aerosol air horn (you know, the kind you take on a boat in case of emergency), I opened the door and went in...then I saw him...he was right there on the stairs, about 6 feet away, growling and looking like he was ready to pounce...and I blasted him with that horn and he practically broke his neck getting out of that room! The next week was uneventful...every time I opened the door, I would give the horn a short blast and I wouldn't see any sign of the rotten little varmit!

Maybe that's an option, in addition to a 4D Mag...if the blast from an air horn doesn't scare the vicious dog, cat, badger, killer rabbit, etc. away, maybe a thump from the Mag will. :devil:

Sorry to have made this post so long, but once I started writing...well, I guess I got carried away. 

BTW...I celebrated the day that cat was hit by a car and killed...and no it wasn't me driving the car!


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## ringzero (Jun 7, 2007)

Toohotruk said:


> My little brother once had a cat...this thing came straight from Hell, it was the meanest, nastiest, 7 lb. beast I have ever known...I celebrated the day that cat was hit by a car and killed...and no it wasn't me driving the car!



Great story Toohotruk! I enjoyed reading the whole thing and it reminds me of certain cats that I've had the misfortune to meet.

A dog that viscious would probably be put down, or else be kept on a chain in a junkyard. Some cat owners seem to tolerate behaviors that would never be tolerated in a dog.


.


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## Reid (Jun 7, 2007)

That was indeed a great story. And it had two happy endings--the Air Horn being the one I can take home and use.

----unrelated:

I was piano tuner. Wealthy Mrs. G, a very nice, older woman chatted with me after the tuning. Her French spaniel--an old dog with cataracted eyes, was at her feet.
I like dogs. She watched approvingly as I knelt and petted the dog (I knew the dog, I thought).

One hand on its head, I spoke to the dog. My other hand then stroked its back.

SNARL. I was bitten in a flash. The one bite took off a nostril, it hung by a bare shred. I had four lips.

Mrs. G. was suitably upset too. She had forgotten to tell me the dog was a biter, and schizoid, and had once nipped a child.
She wouldn't think of taking me to an ER room. "Those surgeons are butchers." She called her grown-up daughters (all of them were experienced in the field). "Between us, Reid, we'll find a plastic surgeon who will take you in right away. We know a few...".

An hour later I was getting stitched up by a skilled doctor.
That was the only pain--the novocaine injections. 
He used binocular glasses and 40 sutures of the very finest thread.
The results were very good. I got my face back, and I look fine today, five years later.

Two weeks or so after the injury, I happened to meet a new face at the local gym. 
A twenty year old male, nice looking youth, if not for the raging-red Frankenstein railroad track scars going all over one side of his face and down his neck.
Just a month before, he had put his head through a laminated glass windshield. 
"I nearly bled out--they helicoptered me to the hospital. They saved me in the ER room. 
I don't remember any of it, though."

Whereas, I had several lineal inches of torn face, stitched by 40 fine sutures,
the youth, by contrast, must have had three times, no, six times more laceration to his face. 
He said, in awe of their work: "Eighty stitches!" 

Yes, Mrs. G was right in her comment, pre-surgury.
Well, no, ER surgeons are not butchers, no. 
But they are trained to save lives, and so work with speed. 
They cannot be expected to take the time, nor take the delicate pains of the plastic surgeon.

I guess the point of my relating all this, is in case you or yours ever takes a chomp to the face 
(in particular), if you have that option of time and place, to find a plastic surgeon willing to take on a real worthwhile job,
[Adv. for the process] here I am, a few months ago,
http://img365.imageshack.us/img365/3670/screenshot024di0.jpg
aged fifty-three--and no cosmetic-anything. Just a good surgical result. 
The torn nostril is on the other side, though.
Although the nose bears a light scar and a nick, My mouth is fine. 
I can't show the before pictures because I don't want to see them again.


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## TorchBoy (Jun 7, 2007)

Confederate said:


> ...opening an umbrella; ...


A few years ago there was a chihuahua at the local bus stop that didn't know when to shut up. I found that pointing my folding umbrella at it and pushing the button made it too confused to bark as the umbrella suddenly popped up. Worked great for a while, and then the thing broke and instead of popping up it just flew off the handle...


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## Bravo25 (Jun 7, 2007)

I have seen what dogs can do, and I don't completely trust any of them. Not even my own black Lab, and she is about as doscile as they come. For me it was an adaptation of philosophy. "the only way to win a fight against a mean junk yard dog, is to turn loose your own meaner junk yard dog". What I mean is if feel you are in danger of attack you better dig down deep, and get badder than that dog real quick. Especially in the "lock-jaw" breeds that are fighters. If you cannot overcome their instinct with fear, bets are you are going to lose. Animals are resiliant, and can take much more of beating than you think. You have got to win the fight at the git-go, because chances are they can out last you, and out run you. I would not hesitate to reach my arm all the way down a dogs throat, and rip out a lung if I really believed I was going to be attacked. I have had to deal with some really large agressive dogs, and if don't establish the dominanace in a way that over comes the agressive instinct, your best hope is to hope it comes out as a trip to the doctor, and not the coroner.
Of course the best option is to not be there, put something between you and the dog. Remember that once these dogs kick in to that mode though, not even the owners can control them.


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## william lafferty (Jun 7, 2007)

Bravo25 said:


> What I mean is if feel you are in danger of attack you better dig down deep, and get badder than that dog real quick. Especially in the "lock-jaw" breeds that are fighters. .


 

I think this very insightful comment applies generally when one is talking about being attacked, either by a human or an animal. And therein lies the heart of the problem, because most people are not trained to dig down deep and get badder, nor have they even thought of doing that, nor are they capable of doing that. But, I believe, that is what it takes. An exception might be a parent, untrained in repelling attacks, watching his child be attacked. That parent might find himself digging down deep without even knowing it, and prevailing because he did. On the hopeful side, it may be that even a person who is not trained to repel aggressive attacks can dig down deep and defend himself if he is told that doing that is a possibility, it is o.k. to do it, and in fact, it is something he can do.

A word about pepper sprays. I think most people who deal with various kinds of self defense will agree that you do what you practice. So if you practice defending yourself with your hands, that's what you will revert to; if with your feet, then it's the feet, and so on. But with pepper spray, how many people do you know who have practiced with it? I know a number of people who carry it, but have never pushed the button. And this is a problem. If you dont practice, you dont know what to expect. Does it shoot a stream? Is it a fog? Does it go far? Close?

And what if there's a breeze, and it blows back in your face? What will your reaction be? And how strong is the stuff you have, anyway? I believe that pepper spray, in some concentrations, can be lethal, particularly when used against a person with respiratory ailments. 

For many years, when hiking in the western United States, I carried a large cannister called Bear Spray. It was a product developed in Missoula Montanna that was said to be effective against bears. I tested the product and found that it emitted a stream of material about fifteen feet from the cannister and was not a fog. The stuff scared me to death because I figured that if it could stop a bear, it would certainly do me in if I mishandled it in some way. But since the choice was risking being mauled by a bear, I carried the cannister.

My point is that pepper spray should not be taken lightly and, in my mind, should be used only when there is no better alternative.

bill lafferty


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## DM51 (Jun 7, 2007)

I would never rely on pepper or CS spray against a really aggressive dog. If that thing is coming at you, you don't want to be standing there just pointing an little aerosol can at it. If you don't have a gun or a knife, you want to be holding something like a baseball bat, and you don't want to mess around with it because you'll get just one shot at its head, and it better be a good one. Nothing else will stop it.


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## winston (Jun 7, 2007)

hquan said:


> You may want to check out this site:
> 
> http://www.dogpsychologycenter.com/
> 
> ...



 Hehehe. Cesar is awesome.  He and VoodooGreg should do a show together demonstrating various techniques.

-Winston


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## voodoogreg (Jun 8, 2007)

winston said:


> Hehehe. Cesar is awesome.  He and VoodooGreg should do a show together demonstrating various techniques.
> 
> -Winston



Believe me, Cesar has much more courage then me!!! I really wish I had his ablity to do what I saw. Instead of my "use hammer to crack open egg" caveman technique's.

till I learn his "voodoo" I guess i gotta stick with the "check LOF, sightup, breathe easy, eye on target". shame too, I love animals! VDG


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## MIKES250R (Jun 8, 2007)

Lee1959 said:


> I have personal experience that a 6 C Cell maglight will stop even the most determined dog when used upon their cranium a few times. I have had to do this twice, once with a flashlight in the city, and once when I was a kid on a bike and happened to have my Loiusville Slugger, both worked satifactorily. Now I would be tempted to use my pistol since I now have a CCW. But a maglight works well enough in a pinch.


 
I agree with this guy. That is why I keep an AE PL24 by my nightstand. If someone breaks in first I will blind them then beat them with what my wife calls the "bazooka" One or two whacks with it and Momma say knock you out. Police officers have been using mag lights to calm down bad guys for years.

Michael


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## CDI (Jun 8, 2007)

A Beretta 950..lol. God was on your side that day, my friend, even if you had loaded it with Uncle Cheech's Garlic-Soaked DU Manstoppers.

About four years ago, I killed a pit bull that attacked and tore up my wife. After dragging it off my wife, I picked it up by the collar with my left hand and hauled it out to the back yard (this was about a 60# dog) and gave it two 230gr .45 JHPs to the brain pan. I would NOT, repeat NOT want to try that with a .25. 

If a dog found out you shot him with a .25, he'd probably be really pissed at you.


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## voodoogreg (Jun 8, 2007)

CDI said:


> A Beretta 950..lol. God was on your side that day, my friend, even if you had loaded it with Uncle Cheech's Garlic-Soaked DU Manstoppers.
> 
> About four years ago, I killed a pit bull that attacked and tore up my wife. After dragging it off my wife, I picked it up by the collar with my left hand and hauled it out to the back yard (this was about a 60# dog) and gave it two 230gr .45 JHPs to the brain pan. I would NOT, repeat NOT want to try that with a .25.
> 
> If a dog found out you shot him with a .25, he'd probably be really pissed at you.



My God! is your wife Ok? I can't imagine a loved one getting mauled,, or my reaction to it

I make a point of never debating handgun make, caliber, load/projectile
etc. All I can say is what I have had drilled into me from 10 yrs old by gramps and my T.O. : placement, placement, placement. Avoid hard antomy, even with that particular "plused up" round it's a scalpel,, your target is to shut off the electricity. that's not to say I don't own/carry larger cal guns.('retta 92, P.O. warthog 45, de 50, rohrbaugh 9mm)

Did your wife come out all right? Any scaring or nerve damage?:sigh: I truly hope not brother. VDG

And yes i try to live my life that in hope God will always be on my side


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## Hans (Jun 8, 2007)

The Shadow said:


> OK, I've got to ask - has anyone here actually fought off an attacking dog with a knife?



When I was a little child my father was attacked by a German shepherd. He was on his way back to his car after doing some work in a local nature reserve, carrying a medium-sized axe. The dog was out with a couple of kids, and when my father went past them the dog went for him straightaway. It was seemingly thinking it had to protect the kids and went on the attack with no warning whatsoever. My father managed to get his left arm between himself and the dog, so the dog didn't get his face. Got his arm though, just missing some major blood vessels. My father was carrying an axe when this happened, and somehow managed to hit the dog on the head with it, so the dog let go his arm. When it attacked again my father managed to hit it again, and when it was on the ground killed it. Literally chopped its head off. 

My father was off work for more than 4 weeks afterwards, and still bears the scars of that attack. He's quite sure he wouldn't have survived this attack if he had only carried his knife. 

Hans


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## TorchBoy (Jun 9, 2007)

Hans said:


> The dog was out with a couple of kids, ... when it was on the ground killed it. Literally chopped its head off.


I hate to think the trouble someone would get in protecting himself in that way these days. Just not PC chopping a dog's head off in front of some kids. :ironic:


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## Reid (Jun 9, 2007)

Feed the dog your hand
http://www.fightingarts.com/reading/article.php?id=337


and especially, if you are not armed?
excerpted:

*Helping A Victim Of An Attacking Dog*
If you see a dog biting a child or another person, rather than trying to pull the victim away, the best thing to do is to force your own hand and arm into the dog's mouth. In the case of a child or a smaller person, the larger diameter of your limb will make it possible to remove the other person's limb without any tearing and if you can keep the presence of mind to keep driving inward and downward you’ll prevent the dog from damaging you too much.


And what about pepper sprays? Read what he advocates instead of spending money on canned capsicums:

* Some people* have recommended capsicum spray. All of the commercially available sprays (including tear gas and related sprays and various types of pepper spray) are formulated for use against humans who are standing still or moving fairly slowly. A fast moving dog homing in on your calf or throat is impervious to this spray and any other spray that is too misty.

_______

(what do you think he prefers? guess, and then go read the article)


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## fod (Jun 11, 2007)

My experience with dogs, both as an owner and friend with many dog owners is that flashlights are only useful in as far as it shows you just what is bouding up on you in the dark (eg- glowing eyes and bared teeth).

I find the best deterant is an aggressive stance. The best non lethal "weapon" to carry on a walk is the old fashoined walking stick, with a piece of cloth (bandana) tied to on end has worked for me against lone dogs. An aggressive stance with the staff (flag-end) pointed at the dog seems to work very well at keeping them at bay until you can back out of thier territory or an owner gets them under control. Luckily, I've never been in the position to fend off multiple dogs.

I feel that awareness and body language are key when dealing with other critters, esp. dogs...


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## JimmyM (Jun 11, 2007)

HarryN said:


> You would be surprised at just how tough an animal is, pet or wild. People are babies compared to even a normally lazy, but determined dog.


Really. Shoot an animal (non-fatally) and it might slow it down. Shoot a person with just a BB gun and they want to run away.


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## kennyj (Jun 11, 2007)

Well, just like with dogs, people can also get nasty and determined. Ever witness a psychotic episode? In the right state of mind, you could hit someone in the shoulder with a medium-caliber bullet and they wouldn't stop coming at you. They'd lose the use of that arm, obviously, but they'd keep going. Fortunately, this isn't something that happens often.

Bottom line, anything that wants to hurt you badly enough, animal or otherwise, will keep trying as long as it has the physical ability to do so. Most people can be scared away, as can most dogs, cats, etc. It's the select few who can't that you need to worry about.


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## DM51 (Jun 11, 2007)

kennyj said:


> Fortunately, this isn't something that happens often.


It happens frequently in warfare, although that is due to adrenalin rather than psychosis. I have seen it many times.


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## knot (Jun 11, 2007)

Perhaps a combination Cree powered flashlight/flamethrower would cure anyone/animal from attack mode/





http://www.futurehorizons.net/weap.htm


A passive defense perhaps could be some sort of fishnet shot from a device to entangle an attacker


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## davidt (Jun 11, 2007)

LOL, me and my friend were just having a discussion about what would stop an attacking dog the other day. And today I ran across this thread.

When people talk about using mace on a dog they are talking about a chemical spray. But when mace is mentioned I think about these:












I'd like to see if these would be effective on a dog. But they would be ridiculous to carry around.

If I recall correctly these could break bones under armor.


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## JetskiMark (Jun 11, 2007)

Interesting thread, I read the whole thing. I knew that there was a reason why I spend so much time inside in front of my computer. It's because that way I'm not outside in the analog world exposing myself to potential canine attacks. 

I guess I have a reason to carry the 6 D Mag around more often now.

I wonder how effective my Draco would be with a Pit Bull? (As a suppository that is.)

Where can I get essence of ferret aftershave?

Seriously though, does anybody know if an aerosol air horn would have any effect on an aggressive dog?

Regards,
Mark


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## defloyd77 (Jun 11, 2007)

My mom was just bitten in the arm by my brother's pitbull rotweiller mix, it was an accident, but, very deep. When she went to the hospital they basically shrugged it off like it's not that big of a concern and that dog bites rarely break bones. No x-ray. Wasn't going to put her on meds for possible infection until she asked. Well one day that same dog tried attacking one of my cats, so I had to put her in a headlock and decided to shine my River Rock .5 watt 2 aaa and she started freaking out and when I let her go she started whining like what the heck did you do to me. I'm rather suprised to read all of these posts where such lights had no affect on aggresive dogs:thinking:.


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## Hans (Jun 11, 2007)

defloyd77 said:


> My mom was just bitten in the arm by my brother's pitbull rotweiller mix, it was an accident, but, very deep. <snip> Well one day that same dog tried attacking one of my cats <snip>



My feeling is that any dog that has bitten someone in such a situation should be put down. You don't really know what will happen next, and that particular dog has proven itself to be dangerous - even if it was only "an accident".

Hans


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## defloyd77 (Jun 11, 2007)

Hans said:


> My feeling is that any dog that has bitten someone in such a situation should be put down. You don't really know what will happen next, and that particular dog has proven itself to be dangerous - even if it was only "an accident".
> 
> Hans


 
It's really not the dog's fault. When she was younger, somebody really decided to use toenail clippers and butchered her claws. Well my mom decided to take her in to get them cut, knowing she freaks out when anybody tries. They tried 1 claw, she jumped off the table and my mom just had to try even more to get them done. Number 1 thing to know about animals, DON'T corner them and restrain them when they are super panicy. She really is a good dog though.


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## Manzerick (Jun 11, 2007)

FREEZE!!! I have a ferrit and i'm not afraid to use it!!!! 


My lil' Marty is a killer!! LOL he attacks everyone but me 




Pook said:


> Untill he passed away last year I used to walk my pet ferret on a lead (leash) everyday down to the local park and back... Yes i did get some strange looks
> 
> But at least 90% of people would come over and after a little assurance that he was very tame they would stroke him and think he was an adorable little monkey....
> 
> ...


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## Toohotruk (Jun 11, 2007)

Pook said:


> Untill he passed away last year I used to walk my pet ferret on a lead (leash) everyday down to the local park and back... Yes i did get some strange looks
> 
> But at least 90% of people would come over and after a little assurance that he was very tame they would stroke him and think he was an adorable little monkey....
> 
> ...


 
I have witnessed this phenomena first hand...years ago, I had a ferret myself. He was a great pet, very friendly, playful, etc. but he did have a fairly strong scent. I remember being at a friend's house one day and when I reached down to pet his Doberman, a dog I knew well that was always excited to see me, got a whiff of me and he gave me a strange look and took off the other way. I couldn't get near that dog any time after I had held my ferret...if I had taken a shower and put on clean clothes before I went over there, he was his old self and I couldn't get rid of him! He LOVED to be petted and would be a total pest...unless I had that ferret smell on me.

I wonder if that would have worked with that devil cat? Somehow I doubt it...he liked the taste of blood way too much to be deterred by a smell! :devil:


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## knot (Jun 11, 2007)

Ammonia is a smell from hell and it might stop an attack. I wouldn't use it full strength though.


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## xhackr (Jun 11, 2007)

CDI said:


> About four years ago, I killed a pit bull that attacked and tore up my wife. After dragging it off my wife, I picked it up by the collar with my left hand and hauled it out to the back yard (this was about a 60# dog) and gave it two 230gr .45 JHPs to the brain pan.


 I’m curious why after you halted the attack and had enough control over the dog to drag it to a location of your choice, you then found it necessary to dispatch the animal.


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## kennyj (Jun 11, 2007)

My guess is that he only barely had control of the dog, and sooner or later it was either going to turn on him or escape and go after something else (as in, his wife or another family member.)


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## DM51 (Jun 12, 2007)

xhackr said:


> I’m curious why after you halted the attack and had enough control over the dog to drag it to a location of your choice, you then found it necessary to dispatch the animal.


You can’t be serious. The guy’s wife had just been savaged and torn up by this out-of-control dog, for Heaven’s sake, and you are questioning his action in finishing it off with a couple from a .45? In his place, I’d have beaten the ****** thing to death, or emptied the whole magazine into it.


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## CDI (Jun 12, 2007)

xhackr said:


> I’m curious why after you halted the attack and had enough control over the dog to drag it to a location of your choice, you then found it necessary to dispatch the animal.


 
Simple - the only reason I didn't shoot it in the hallway was because I didn't want to get blood all over the owner's house. Though in retrospect, I guess it didn't really matter, since my WIFE'S blood was already everywhere.


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## CDI (Jun 12, 2007)

voodoogreg said:


> My God! is your wife Ok? I can't imagine a loved one getting mauled,, or my reaction to it
> 
> I make a point of never debating handgun make, caliber, load/projectile
> etc. All I can say is what I have had drilled into me from 10 yrs old by gramps and my T.O. : placement, placement, placement. Avoid hard antomy, even with that particular "plused up" round it's a scalpel,, your target is to shut off the electricity. that's not to say I don't own/carry larger cal guns.('retta 92, P.O. warthog 45, de 50, rohrbaugh 9mm)
> ...


 
She's better. The scarring was minimal, thanks to the nature of the wounds (punctures rather than lacerations). I posted pics of it over on AR15.com when it happened.

Those of you who have never seen a large dog attack in person really don't know what you're talking about in terms of being able to stop it. A truly determined LARGE dog will absolutely murder you in very short order unless you have a weapon and the requisite mindset to use it. Even then you had better count on losing some meat. The Tueller Drill would come out even more in favor of the dog, I'm thinking, since I bet a dog can cover 21 feet quicker than a human.


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## CDI (Jun 12, 2007)

kennyj said:


> My guess is that he only barely had control of the dog, and sooner or later it was either going to turn on him or escape and go after something else (as in, his wife or another family member.)


 
He stopped attacking and knew when I picked him up by the throat that he'd {_censored_} up severely and was about to pay, but at that point his ticket was paid for.


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## xhackr (Jun 12, 2007)

CDI said:


> He stopped attacking and knew when I picked him up by the throat that he'd {_censored_} up severely and was about to pay, but at that point his ticket was paid for.


 I see. You were in the owner’s house (read that dog’s territory). Then the dog halted the attack. With the dog no longer a threat, you then pick the dog up, took it outside and killed it in punishment. You’re a pretty tough guy, huh?


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## GreySave (Jun 12, 2007)

I think the moderators need to take a hard look at this thread and lock it. We are getting into legal issues here and there are people who use this Forum who are involved in animal care, welfare, and enforcement. Enough has probably already been said to initiate legal proceedings depending upon the local ordinances where some of you reside. It is time to shut this down.


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## CDI (Jun 12, 2007)

GreySave said:


> I think the moderators need to take a hard look at this thread and lock it. We are getting into legal issues here and there are people who use this Forum who are involved in animal care, welfare, and enforcement. Enough has probably already been said to initiate legal proceedings depending upon the local ordinances where some of you reside. It is time to shut this down.


 
Dude, you're nuts. The dog's owner was 100% in the wrong (the dog had attacked two other people and sent them to the hospital, as we found out later), and there are no legal issues. I killed the dog in lieu of paying $50 to give it the needle, and if you're too much of a metrosexual to understand why I might want to shoot a dog that just tore up my wife, well, I guess you just won't understand. I made contact with the police and my lawyer the next day, and both of them advised me that I had NOTHING to worry about. 

As for Mr. xhackr, the dog terminated its attack after being bodyslammed to the floor and pried off my wife's arm. I took it outside and killed it because it needed to be killed. My 18 month old niece was running around in the house with this dog and I was not going to give it a second chance to tear someone else up. 

If tough guy=does what needs to be done, then I guess I'm a tough guy.

Now if you want to argue that this has gone off topic, I'll agree. The final word is that a light is inadequate against an attacking dog.


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## xhackr (Jun 12, 2007)

CDI said:


> Dude, you're nuts. The dog's owner was 100% in the wrong (the dog had attacked two other people and sent them to the hospital, as we found out later), and there are no legal issues. I killed the dog in lieu of paying $50 to give it the needle, and if you're too much of a metrosexual to understand why I might want to shoot a dog that just tore up my wife, well, I guess you just won't understand. I made contact with the police and my lawyer the next day, and both of them advised me that I had NOTHING to worry about.
> 
> As for Mr. xhackr, the dog terminated its attack after being bodyslammed to the floor and pried off my wife's arm. I took it outside and killed it because it needed to be killed. My 18 month old niece was running around in the house with this dog and I was not going to give it a second chance to tear someone else up.
> 
> ...


 First you say, “He stopped attacking and knew when I picked him up by the throat that he'd {_censored_} up severely” Now you say, “the dog terminated its attack after being bodyslammed”. I’ll leave that contradiction alone.

You then go on to say,” …and pried off my wife's arm.” You would be unable to remove a pit bull that was in a locked bite by prying it off. You being able to “body slam the dog” indicates the dog was no longer in a bite act. Additionally, you being able to pick the dog up and carry it clearly makes you in control of the dog and then thereby removing the threat to your wife and anyone else in that dog’s house. You had complete control over the animal and could have easily secured him in a room, and left the residence. Instead you felt like killing the dog in retribution, so you did. Let’s not overlook the fact that instead of securing the dog in another room and immediately attending to your wife, you took more time to get the dog outside into the backyard and kill it.

Then in attempt to defend your actions and ignore some fairly sound advice from another poster, your best solution to that is name calling. 

I can believe a LEO could give poor legal advise, but when an attorney does it, and he/she is your attorney, it is time look other representation, as both of you need a lesson in animal abuse, and excessive force. 

It won’t take but two subpoenas to determine who you are - one to the board owner here, and the second to your internet provider. Govern yourself accordingly. 

“…does what needs to be done…” Yeah, you’re a real man.


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## CDI (Jun 12, 2007)

xhackr said:


> First you say, “He stopped attacking and knew when I picked him up by the throat that he'd {_censored_} up severely” Now you say, “the dog terminated its attack after being bodyslammed”. I’ll leave that contradiction alone.
> 
> You then go on to say,” …and pried off my wife's arm.” You would be unable to remove a pit bull that was in a locked bite by prying it off. You being able to “body slam the dog” indicates the dog was no longer in a bite act. Additionally, you being able to pick the dog up and carry it clearly makes you in control of the dog and then thereby removing the threat to your wife and anyone else in that dog’s house. You had complete control over the animal and could have easily secured him in a room, and left the residence. Instead you felt like killing the dog in retribution, so you did. Let’s not overlook the fact that instead of securing the dog in another room and immediately attending to your wife, you took more time to get the dog outside into the backyard and kill it.
> 
> ...


 
Nevermind. Not worth the 02.


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## GreySave (Jun 12, 2007)

CDI.....Based upon what you originally described had happened.....Situatiion was under control and you took the animal outside an shot it....In my community that would merit a firearms violation. The immediate threat had ceased. The animal was under control. There was no reason to discharge a firearm. That is a firearms violation in my community. Whether it would be prosecuted is another matter. 

Notice that I did not criticize you in any way for what you did. I was simply pointing out that in some communities you could face legal issues. I CAN understand how you felt, but that does not change the potential legal penalties that could exist for the scenario you described. In many communities, once the threat is over the "right" to discharge a firearm is also very very over. 

I will say it again. This thread has long since left its original intent, has become way too emotional, and needs to be closed.


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## CDI (Jun 12, 2007)

GreySave said:


> CDI.....Based upon what you originally described had happened.....Situatiion was under control and you took the animal outside an shot it....In my community that would merit a firearms violation. The immediate threat had ceased. The animal was under control. There was no reason to discharge a firearm. That is a firearms violation in my community. Whether it would be prosecuted is another matter.
> 
> Notice that I did not criticize you in any way for what you did. I was simply pointing out that in some communities you could face legal issues. I CAN understand how you felt, but that does not change the potential legal penalties that could exist for the scenario you described. In many communities, once the threat is over the "right" to discharge a firearm is also very very over.
> 
> I will say it again. This thread has long since left its original intent, has become way too emotional, and needs to be closed.



Roger that, and I apologize for yelling at you. I don't know where you live, (sounds like Illinois or New Jersey) but where I live, I committed NO violations of the law. In my community, there is NO statute, regulation, or other code that says I can't discharge a firearm in my yard. The scenario you are describing would be applicable if we were talking about shooting an attacking HUMAN, but a dog is not legally the same thing as a person. Again, sorry for getting irritated, but it wasn't YOUR wife that you had to beat a pitbull off of (who should have been dead two bites previously).

As far as the other guy, I smell a pitbull owner in the room. Having had this argument with them before, I know they are totally incapable of rationality when it comes to their cuddly companions, so I believe I'll just disengage here.

Mods, please feel free to delete the digressions here - this WAS a good discussion until the bulletin board lawyer showed up.


Anyw


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## xhackr (Jun 12, 2007)

CDI said:


> As far as the other guy, I smell a pitbull owner in the room. Having had this argument with them before, I know they are totally incapable of rationality when it comes to their cuddly companions, so I believe I'll just disengage here.
> 
> Mods, please feel free to delete the digressions here - this WAS a good discussion until the bulletin board lawyer showed up.


 In a case like this, discharging a firearm would be by comparison a minor issue. Your use of excessive force and animal cruelty is serious offence. In many states your actions here are a felony. 

I’m sure you would like this thread, or portion thereof deleted now after showing the community the kind of person you are, and the possible repercussions of your actions, however it is too late for that. 

Even if I did own a pit bull – which I don’t, nor did I ever – the fact that you attempting to use that to defuse and obfuscate what you have done and take no responsibility for your actions continues to betray who you are. You further attempt to justify your actions by an accounting of your wife’s injuries. However, it was more important to you after the event had been diffused, with the dog no longer a threat as it was under your direct control, to drag the dog outside and execute it rather than attend to your wife’s injuries.


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## DM51 (Jun 12, 2007)

CDI, I think the best way to deal with this troll will be to ignore it.


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## 65535 (Jun 12, 2007)

Against an aggravated animal, your best bet is an ultra powerful impact tool aka. The Mag light.

I suppose a USL mag could also hurt ALOT.


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## L4fanatic (Jun 13, 2007)

Let me chime in on this: The hell you talking about animal cruelty, what about the cruelty done on his wife by the dog, you tell me how you deal with it if your loved ones who get hurt, would you take the dog out and talk to it or something? This is ridiculous how some people love their animals more than family!!!!


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## DM51 (Jun 13, 2007)

L4, pretty much everyone here agrees with you and sympathises with CDI and thinks what he did was right and justified. But we have a troll in this thread, and probably the best thing to do is to ignore him / her / it.


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## xhackr (Jun 13, 2007)

DM51 said:


> L4, pretty much everyone here agrees with you and sympathises with CDI and thinks what he did was right and justified. But we have a troll in this thread, and probably the best thing to do is to ignore him / her / it.


 Everyone? I count two, and your one of them. Your non-defensive retaliatory solution was to, “I’d have beaten the ****** thing to death, or emptied the whole magazine into it.” With that rational your position comes as little surprise. 

You want to mitigate the damage done here by attempting to spin the issue, and try to dismiss me as a troll. Is that the best you can do? If you’re going to play the role of a cheerleading sycophant you surely can do better than that. 

Alternatively, you can defend the facts here. I don’t think that will prove much success for you, so your current path is obvious.


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## Kier (Jun 13, 2007)

Animal cruelty to dogs? Sounds fun. Count me in.

Oh wait, what were we talking about?


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## KenAnderson (Jun 13, 2007)

I grew up in a small midwest town with a large whitetail deer population. Saw several hundred car deer accidents. Quite often the deer was injured in a critical way and was not going to survive. Locals, not wanting the animal to suffer, would use a tire iron or maglite to dispatch them. Usually a single hit on the top of the head would do it. A deer skull is probably thicker than a dogs due to the need to anchor it's antlers. A 4+ cell maglite weighted with batterys was always an effective tool for the job. I just can't see myself ever trying to defend myself with my Mizer Mule 

Ken


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## NA8 (Jun 19, 2007)

Toohotruk said:


> Long story, longer...the next day, I brought my aerosol air horn (you know, the kind you take on a boat in case of emergency), I opened the door and went in...then I saw him...he was right there on the stairs, about 6 feet away, growling and looking like he was ready to pounce...and I blasted him with that horn and he practically broke his neck getting out of that room!



For less violent cats, a squirt gun works great for moving them. They hate water. A spray bottle dialed in to the squirt gun mode works great too.


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## LuxLuthor (Jun 29, 2007)

xhackr said:


> Everyone? I count two, and your one of them. Your non-defensive retaliatory solution was to, “I’d have beaten the ****** thing to death, or emptied the whole magazine into it.” With that rational your position comes as little surprise.
> 
> You want to mitigate the damage done here by attempting to spin the issue, and try to dismiss me as a troll. Is that the best you can do? If you’re going to play the role of a cheerleading sycophant you surely can do better than that.
> 
> Alternatively, you can defend the facts here. I don’t think that will prove much success for you, so your current path is obvious.



Listen, count me as a 3rd. I am the #1 dog lover in world, and have always viewed our pets as members of our family...but once a large and dangerous dog has crossed the line and attacked a person as in this case, they almost always need to be killed for the public safety.

Just because he said he had control of the dog....realistically.....you don't ever have total control over a Pit Bull in an aggressive scenario like this...and there was no way for him to be sure the dog would not continue its attacks. His first concern was eliminating the deadly threat and returning to his wife's side to help her. It made perfect sense, and IMHO you are totally out of line saying what you have to him.

You need to have something like this happen to your own family member, then you will understand what he did was the safest for everyone involved.

Also, I see nothing wrong with his having used deadly force when he and/or his family was threatened by deadly force. It's not like the dog took a bite and went off running, and he shot it as it ran away.

To me the most upsetting thing about this whole thread is you threatening to issue two suppoenas to threaten this CPF member. If that isn't a violation of everything that CPF is about, I don't know what is.

Thread reported to moderator because of that.


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## xhackr (Jun 29, 2007)

LuxLuthor said:


> Listen, count me as a 3rd. I am the #1 dog lover in world, and have always viewed our pets as members of our family...but once a large and dangerous dog has crossed the line and attacked a person as in this case, they almost always need to be killed for the public safety.
> 
> Just because he said he had control of the dog....realistically.....you don't ever have total control over a Pit Bull in an aggressive scenario like this...and there was no way for him to be sure the dog would not continue its attacks. His first concern was eliminating the deadly threat and returning to his wife's side to help her. It made perfect sense, and IMHO you are totally out of line saying what you have to him.
> 
> ...



He had full control and custody of this animal. If the dog was an immediate threat he should have taken the shortest course to stop that threat by locking the dog in a room and tending to his wife, not taking more time to get the dog outside and into the back yard. 

The fact that he took more time to get the dog outside to the backyard to kill it rather than attend to his wife’s injuries betrays the kind of person he is and his priority to dispatch the animal rather than a faster method of stopping any further threat and taking care of his wife. The fact that he was able to carry this allegedly vicious dog out of the house and into the backyard with one hand clearly shows the dog was not in an aggressive mode.

I don’t know what precipitated the attack, do you? That could be another issue here. If the dog needed to be put down at a later time, that could have been accomplished. Nonetheless, no one, not you, not he, or I have the right to be judge, jury, and executioner, and the law is very specific to that. There is a proper protocol for this event both legally and morally. 

Please tell me where I threatened anyone. It was intelligently mentioned by another poster the legal repercussion to him for his actions and I pointed out how easily that could be facilitated with two subpoenas. If you are going to attempt to spin the facts, try a more subtle and intelligent technique. 

I’m sure the moderators are already well aware of this thread.


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## LuxLuthor (Jun 29, 2007)

You do not know that he had full control and custody...and it may very well be the case that a concern for further harm to humans by an animal that was either not trained or provoked (neither case matters) into inflicting deadly force (as breeds such as Pit Bulls are notorious for) could not be trusted to just be led out and alone in the back yard, so shooting it to eliminate the threat is perfectly reasonable. 

Remember there was a deadly threat to him and/or his family by this animal. That justifies the use of deadly force, and whether he splattered the animals blood inside or outside is a minor issue. In such a circumstance, almost everyone would have done whatever "in the heat of the moment" was most effective to remove the threat. I don't see being able to verify and clear a room and make sure the lock and strength of the door in your proposal is the least bit realistic or thoughtful.

You don't know if there was another nearby safe room inside, nor if the closest place to removing the dog was the outside door. I would not want to have to worry in the moment if the room I just put the dog into might have had a child, or another exit, or a loose latch. 

Again, I love animals and dogs in particular...but once any dog (especially of that size and breed) has attacked a human, the concern for the animal is misguided in such a circumstance. I also believe you mentioned the ways someone like you could get ahold of his personal identity by getting a suppoena to Sasha and then his ISP as a threat to intimidate him...and as I said *I find that the most offensive thing about this thread because that tactic intended only to intimidate him and others.

*Then there is the way that you attempt to belittle EVERYONE who challenges your position by saying crap like: "If you are going to attempt to spin the facts, try a more subtle and intelligent technique." which is your attempt at saying I am spinning, or not intelligent....which is of course a veiled attempt to insult me as you have done to others who agree with CDI's actions.


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## xhackr (Jun 29, 2007)

LuxLuthor said:


> You do not know that he had full control and custody...


 No one takes a large pit bull and single-handedly carries it outside without that animal being under their direct control and custody, and furthermore not being in an aggressive mode.



LuxLuthor said:


> … could not be trusted to just be led out and alone in the back yard.


 How do you know this? How do you know the backyard was not secure for this dog?



LuxLuthor said:


> That justifies the use of deadly force,


 Does it? What State are you referring to that this law applies? 



LuxLuthor said:


> and whether he splattered the animals blood inside or outside is a minor issue.


 Well, not to him. This was an issue to him as he was so “considerate” to his neighbor that he took the neighbor’s dog outside to kill it as not to _“get blood all over the owner's house.”_ Additionally, this fact demonstrates there was no immediate threat that necessitated killing the dog. You cannot use more force than that which is necessary to arrest the threat. Doing so is excessive force. The dog was killed after the fact in clear retaliation, not defense. 



LuxLuthor said:


> but once any dog (especially of that size and breed) has attacked a human, the concern for the animal is misguided in such a circumstance.


 Really? Putting aside the reason for the attack, does that apply to you as well or only those that disagree with you? 



LuxLuthor said:


> I also believe you mentioned the ways someone like you could get ahold of his personal identity by getting a suppoena to Sasha and then his ISP as a threat to intimidate him...


 Here you continue to spin the facts with stating, “…someone like you” I never said or even intimated myself, and I have no idea what is, “like [me]”. Furthermore, what you accuse as threatening was sound legal advice to take caution in further incriminating himself on a public board. 



LuxLuthor said:


> Then there is the way that you attempt to belittle EVERYONE who challenges your position


 More of your attempts to spin as your, “EVERYONE” here is one other person.



LuxLuthor said:


> In such a circumstance, almost everyone would have done whatever "in the heat of the moment" was most effective to remove the threat.


 More spin stating what "almost everyone" would do here. Either way, when the dog was being carried outside, there was no threat, muchless deadly threat.



LuxLuthor said:


> which is your attempt at saying I am spinning, or not intelligent....which is of course a veiled attempt to insult me as you have done to others who agree with CDI's actions.


 More spin. Your, “others” is one other person. There was nothing veiled in my opinion of your post.



LuxLuthor said:


> *I find that the most offensive thing about this thread…*


 And the most offensive thing I find about this thread is the unwarranted retaliatory killing of an animal and an after the fact attempt to invent a deadly threat that required it.


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## TorchBoy (Jun 29, 2007)

This thread is becoming a little like a soap opera.

FWIW around here I believe if a dog bites someone it can be killed immediately (eg, the situation under considered discussion). If it's not done immediately I think there has to be a court order. But if it had happened here I'm sure if the media got hold of it there'd be a field day as above.

A guy my brother used to work with sometimes used the two stick method on aggressive dogs. Offer the dog one stick, which it bites on, and hit it over the head as hard as poss. with the other. I suppose it could be done with a couple of Maglites.

The other method the guy used involved pretending to be a bunny rabbit (or something) wanting to play - bouncing with his hands held in front of him, looking back over his shoulder while panting, etc. Confused the dogs no end.

We now return you to your regular programming.


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## Esthan (Jun 29, 2007)

abvidledUK said:


> Went for a walk in the new snow last night in our local park, a couple of largish dogs approached us, I shone my quite bright 49 led torch at them (49 leds on) , from a foot or so away as they approached, didn't seem to have much effect.
> 
> One seemed to look away a bit, but wasn't distressed, as perhaps a human would be.
> 
> ...




Where do people get the Idea that a Torch is a defensive tool against animals of any kind from anyway ?

*Of course it is not ! *

Dogs are not like screwdriwers. Each dog from the same litter has a different
character and will react in a different way to the same conditions. 
Screwdrivers that come from the same production line, aside of those made
from a defective raw material have the same characteristics and the one or 
the other will behave the same way if subjected to the same task.
Shine a torch at one or the other dog from the same litter and You'll be either
- Bitten
- Licked
- Ignored
- Barked at
- Looked curiously

Only exception could be something Mag alike with enough weight and hardness 
to be used as a baton. But I'm not sure of that as well for I have been way 
to often forced to separate fighting dogs to know that the best *LAST CHANCE*
solution for an overly aggressive dog is always to Yell at and Kick it so hard 
that the dog is either lunched in the air or displaced and by so, due to a 
shock reminded of reality, cause an irritated dog usually forgets his place, 
and a momentarily disoriented and scared one learns to think very fast. 
You cannot achieve such an effect with a lightweight models - feet have
sufficient weight to do the task, and If used properly (not with a tip of the 
shoe) do not harm the aggressor as much.



> PS: I gather if a dog has you pinned down and is biting you, sticking a finger / torch up it's backside distracts it, again, anyone experience this. How effective is it ?



Am is supposed to stick a flashlight in his 3 letters ? 

Too much movies !!!!


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## dano (Jun 29, 2007)

This thread has run its course.

The veiled threats, baiting, etc, are not welcome at CPF. 

CLOSED.


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