# Armytek Wizard Pro Prototype Long-Term Testing



## Knight_Light

This is a long-term test and review of the Armytek Wizard Pro Prototype. This review and test will be incremental in nature. Content will be added, edited, and moved as the review progresses. *This is a prototype unit that was provided by Armytek so the final product may differ from what is in this post.*

I will try to keep this portion of the review strictly factual. The facts that will be posted in this section of the review will either be provided by Armytek (I will not verify their claims but simply post them) and/or my own observations and measurements (that I actually take/observe) along with pictures. I will try to keep opinion out of this part of the review. The purpose of this portion of the review is to give a factual as well as a visual product summation.

Directly below this part of the review you will find my opinions as well as a journal that documents the different uses, adventures and tests that this headlamp has been subject to. This part of the review will be based on my own personal preferences and opinions coupled with my own personal experiences over the years. The purpose of this portion of the review is just to give MY opinion and interpretation of this particular product offering.

Since a picture is worth 1000 words here is the Armytek Wizard Pro Prototype next to a NCR18650A for size comparison. The end of the battery matches up evenly with the base of the headlamp in this photo. The headlamp and the battery together, as seen in the picture weigh 101 g.







Here is a close-up of the TIR optic on the Armytek Wizard Pro.






Here you can see the same NCR18650A battery fully inserted into the battery tube. There is plenty of room for even oversized batteries in this headlamp. Even though there is plenty of room both in length and width there is no rattle when the tail cap is tightened down. Notice how not only are the threads anodized but also the inside of the battery tube. A 1/4 of a turn is all it takes to lock out the light.







Here you have an Orbtronic Protected 3400mAh 18650 Li-ion Rechargeable Battery (Panasonic NCR18650B) inside the battery tube with over 1.5 mm to spare. The Orbtronic measures 68.9 mm.







Here are what the threads on the battery tube look like. Well cut. Smooth and easy to operate. Anodized to enable lockout. Notice the double O-ring seal. Well lubricated from the manufacturer.







Here is an up close look at the tail cap. Notice how the spring sticks past the end of the tail cap thus guaranteeing positive contact with whatever 18650 battery that is thrown into the battery tube, even unprotected 18650’s. This headlamp has its own protection circuit allowing the user to use unprotected cells safely.






A better look at the inside of the tail cap.







Down the battery tube to the business end of the headlamp shows a raised contact point enabling the use of flattop batteries.







This is how you turn the light ON & OFF, you press the switch (pictured below). It is a fairly firm raised switch requiring considerable pressure (unlikely to be turned on by accident, tail cap lockout is also an option if one is worried). When the switch is not pressed there is no color. Anytime the switch is pressed a bright red color is illuminated through the switch which disappears upon releasing the switch. In “Tactical Mode” (momentary ON) the switch remains brightly lit for as long as it is pressed (bright red color).







Here is the “State Indication” on the ON & OFF switch blinking once every 4 seconds (this feature can be turned on and turned off at will). It serves a dual purpose, letting the user know everything is okay in terms of battery voltage and temperature as well as a beacon for easier location of the light in a dark environment. It is fairly bright and can easily be seen 20 feet across the room or within a 5 to 7 foot radius when dropped into a grassy field.







Whenever the light goes into “Warning Level” or “Critical Level” for battery voltage and/or temperature threshold the “State Indication” on the ON & OFF switch will blink once per second when it reaches “Warning Level” and twice per second when it reaches the “Critical Level”. The “State Indication” color at this point is a combination of green yellow orange (faint in nature and a lot lower then normal). The best representation of this is in the picture below (I know it looks more red then anything but that is the best I could do to capture the flickering).






So before you activate the light you need to put a battery inside. Once you insert the battery (has reverse polarity protection) you need to tell the headlamp what type of battery it is. You do this by following these instructions (from the official manual provided by Armytek http://www.armytek.com/index.php?dispatch=attachments.getfile&attachment_id=39).







Now that the headlamp has power you can get it to do all the things it was designed to do by following these instructions (from the official manual provided by Armytek http://www.armytek.com/index.php?dispatch=attachments.getfile&attachment_id=39).







Let me elaborate on the user interface that is described in the official manual. 

To make it easier lets group the modes into sections.



Section 1 is compromised by Firefly 1 & Firefly 2.
Section 2 is compromised by Mode 1, Mode 2, Mode 3, and Mode 4.
Section 3 is compromised by Turbo.
Section 4 is compromised by 2 strobe modes (0.6Hz / 10Hz) and battery voltage meter (decimal). Let’s call these specialty modes.
 
So you grab the light to use and are ready to press the ON & OFF switch. At this point you have the following 2 options.

*You Press and Release the ON & OFF switch*. This puts you into the previous mode used (Firefly 1, Firefly 2, Mode 1, Mode 2, Mode 3 or Mode 4) except for Turbo and Strobe.




Now if you decide to press and hold it will go to the next highest level. In one of the following ways (if you release the ON & OFF switch at any moment you will stay in whatever light level you were in).
If you are in Section 1 it will increase in level until you get into Section 2. It will go through all of the levels in Section 2 and then jump back down to the lowest level in Section 2 (Mode 1) and then repeat the process for as long as the switch is held down.
If you are in Section 2 it will increase in level until you are in Mode 4 and then it will cycle back down to Mode 1. It will repeat the process for as long as the switch is held down.

 



Now if you decide to double-click it will do one of the following.
If you are in Section 1 you will automatically jump into the last level used in Section 2 (it keeps the last mode of Section 2 memorized).
If you are in section 2 you will automatically jump into Turbo. Now depending on how you double-click one of the following will occur.
If you double-click and let go it stays in Turbo.
If you double-click and hold it is momentary Turbo and will go back to the last light level used (in Section 2) as soon as you release.


 

*You Press and Hold the ON & OFF switch.* This puts you directly into Firefly 1. Once Firefly 1 is ON you have the following two options. 



You let go of the switch and you will stay in Firefly 1. 
You continue to hold the switch and you will start to cycle through all of the modes in Section 1, Section 2, and Section 3. You can stop at any light level you desire by releasing the switch and it will be memorized (except for Turbo). Should you decide not to stop and keep going the light will shut off after reaching Turbo and stay off (this is a feature that Armytek incorporated so that in case the button is pressed by accident the light will not cycle indefinitely and wear out the battery, for example in a backpack).
 

At any moment when the light is ON if you quickly click 4 times you will end up in Section 4 (Specialty Modes). It will put you in whatever Specialty Mode that you last used (it memorizes the Specialty Mode). Now you have the following options.




If you press and release the ON & OFF switch the light will turn off.
If you press and hold the ON & OFF switch it will cycle to the next mode in Section 4. It will continue to cycle through the 3 modes in Section 4 for as long as you hold the ON & OFF switch. When you release the ON & OFF switch it will stop and memorize whatever mode you are in (in Section 4).
If you Double-Click the ON & OFF switch it will return to whatever mode you were last in Section 2.
 

No headlamp would be complete without a headband. Here it is the way that it comes out of the box in its unassembled state.




Here you see it put together.





From another angle.





The elastic headband is exactly 1 inch wide.





Now if a headband is not your thing or you just want to EDC the headlamp you have the capability to attach a pocket clip. The pocket clip enables deep carry. It attaches to the headlamp very securely, requiring considerable effort to remove. The way the pocket clip holds onto objects, such as a pocket, is light to medium in terms of pressure. The pocket clip is also reversible as well as magnetic (meaning you can attach magnets to it for additional mounting scenarios). Here is what it looks like attached to the headlamp.







Here is a close-up shot showing you exactly how deep in the pocket the headlamp can be worn. Notice it is not flush with the top of the headlamp.






The pocket clip will allow the headlamp to tail stand at pretty much any conceived angle.







Here are the output levels and there respective lumen ratings (the ratings were provided by Armytek and have not been verified). The indicated runtimes were calculated by me based on a 3100 mAh battery and the current specifications for each light level provided by Armytek. 

Mode 1, Mode 3, Mode 4 and Turbo have now been CONFIRMED by ME and the details of the run test can be viewed below under “Confirmed Runtime Tests:”. 



Results with “1​” were achieved utilizing an unprotected 3100 mAh Panasonic battery (NCR18650A).
Results with “2​” were achieved utilizing an unprotected 3400 mAh Panasonic battery (NCR18650B).
 
*Modes, Light Levels, and Runtimes:*




Firefly 1 = 0.5 lm = 3050 hours or 127 days
Firefly 2 = 7 lm = 217 hours or 9 days
*Mode 1 = 30 lm = 37h 29m CONFIRMED2​*
Mode 2 = 115 lm = 14 hours
*Mode 3 = 250 lm = 7h 23m CONFIRMED1​, 7h 59m CONFIRMED2​*
*Mode 4 = 550 lm = 2h 59m CONFIRMED1​, 3h 12m CONFIRMED2​*
*Turbo = 1010 lm = 1h 08m CONFIRMED1​*
 
*Confirmed Runtime Tests:*

For the runtime tests I utilized the same NCR18650A (3100 mAh) battery that had some miles on it and a fresh brand-new NCR18650B (3400 mAh) battery. The results are as follows.


*Mode 1 = 30 lm:*




At 36 hours and 40 minutes the headlamp flashed 3 times signaling that the voltage is in the “Warning Level”. This was followed by the ON and OFF switch indicator light flashing once every second in a green yellow orange combination. According to Armytek the “Warning Level” is triggered when the battery voltage is 3.1 V. *At this point the light level has not dropped.* There is also a “Critical Level”. According to Armytek the “Critical Level” is triggered when the battery voltage is 2.9 V.
At 37 hours and 29 minutes light output drops to firefly mode 2. At this point the runtime test was concluded.
 

*Mode 3 = 250 lm:*




In this mode the headlamp hardly got warm. Maintaining 93°F at the head of the headlamp and about 91°F around the battery tube (these were maximum values recorded throughout the whole test).
 At 7 hours and 8 minutes the headlamp flashed 3 times signaling that the voltage is in the “Warning Level”. This was followed by the ON and OFF switch indicator light flashing once every second in a green yellow orange combination. According to Armytek the “Warning Level” is triggered when the battery voltage is 3.1 V. *At this point the light level has not dropped.* There is also a “Critical Level”. According to Armytek the “Critical Level” is triggered when the battery voltage is 2.9 V.
At 7 hours and 23 minutes light output drops to firefly mode 2. At this point the runtime test was concluded.
Immediately after the test was finished the battery was removed and checked for voltage and temperature. The voltage was 3.15 V and the temperature was 89°F (for the battery). After about a 60 minute rest the battery voltage was about 3.20 V.
 

*Mode 4 = 550 lm:*




24 minutes into the test the headlamp feels fairly warm to the touch, but not hot.
After about an hour the headlamp is very hot to the touch and maintains this temperature for the duration of the test. I used an infrared thermometer to measure the temperature. The hottest was 125°F at the head of the headlamp and about 111°F around the battery tube (these were maximum values recorded throughout the whole test).
At 2 hours and 46 minutes the headlamp flashed 3 times signaling that the voltage is in the “Warning Level”. This was followed by the ON and OFF switch indicator light flashing once every second in a green yellow orange combination. According to Armytek the “Warning Level” is triggered when the battery voltage is 3.1 V. *At this point the light level has not dropped.* There is also a “Critical Level”. According to Armytek the “Critical Level” is triggered when the battery voltage is 2.9 V.
At 2 hours and 59 minutes light output drops to firefly mode 2. At this point the runtime test was concluded.
Immediately after the test was finished the battery was removed and checked for voltage and temperature. The voltage was 2.97 V and the temperature was 106°F (for the battery). After about a 60 minute rest the battery voltage was about 3.09 V.
 

*Turbo = 1010 lm:*

Starting temperature for the headlamp is 79°F both in the head and body (same temperature as in the test environment). In the table below you can see the rapid progression and the leveling off of the temperature during the runtime test.




Minutes into the Runtime Test

Temperature at the Head

Temperature at the Battery Tube

 

 

 

00m

79°F

79°F

01m

96°F

NA

03m

117°F

NA

05m

130°F

NA

10m

150°F

131°F

15m

165°F

138°F

20m

169°F

144°F

30m

175°F

152°F

1h 08m

178°F

158°F


 



5 minutes into the runtime test the headlamp is uncomfortable to hold. At the 15 minute mark it is unbearable to hold.
At 56 minutes the headlamp flashed 3 times signaling that the voltage is in the “Warning Level”. This was followed by the ON and OFF switch indicator light flashing once every second in a green yellow orange combination. According to Armytek the “Warning Level” is triggered when the battery voltage is 3.1 V. *At this point the light level has not dropped.* There is also a “Critical Level”. According to Armytek the “Critical Level” is triggered when the battery voltage is 2.9 V.
At 1 hour and 8 minutes light output drops to firefly mode 2. At this point the runtime test was concluded.
Immediately after the test was finished the battery was removed and checked for voltage and temperature. The voltage was 2.93 V and the temperature was 132°F (for the battery). After about a 60 minute rest the battery voltage was about 3.0 V.
This headlamp has thermal protection built-in which is supposed to be triggered at 80°C or 176°F. When the thermal protection reaches what Armytek calls the “Critical Level” (80°C or 176°F ) the light output drops to 100 lm. *During the whole runtime test the thermal protection did not activate.*
 

*Beam Shots:*

So now that you know what modes this headlamp has and how long they will run for, what about the question, what do they look like? For Firefly 1, Firefly 2, and Mode 1 I had a friend volunteer to help me out. The next 3 photos were all taken at a distance of about 3.5 feet.


*Firefly 1 = 0.5 lm**:*







*Firefly 2 = 7 lm:*







*Mode 1 = 30 lm:*







*Night Hiking Shots:* 

These were taken during a night hike. The sky was clear and the moon was out. The fallen tree on the ground is about 30 feet long. I purposely took the pictures here as a helpful way to gauge distance.


*Control:*






*Firefly 1 = 0.5 lm**:*







*Firefly 2 = 7 lm:*







*Mode 1 = 30 lm:*







*Mode 3 = 250 lm:*







*Mode 4 = 550 lm:*








*Turbo = 1010 lm:*


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## Knight_Light

This portion of the review is a mixture of my opinion as well as my experiences and facts utilizing the headlamp. It will be incremental in nature and content will be edited, added, and deleted as it progresses.


========================================


*Proposed New Armytek Wizard Pro UI:*

I am one of the people that likes the Armytek Wizard Pro UI. But like everything else it has room for improvement (at least to me). Several weeks ago while testing the preproduction model I came up with what I feel is an improved UI that I sent to Armytek as a suggestion for future models. Below you see my rendition of what I believe is an improved UI for the Armytek Wizard Pro.

The idea behind this UI is that most people either concentrate on lower lumen outputs or higher lumen outputs when trying to perform a certain task. This UI enables the user to focus on either lower lumen outputs or higher lumen outputs for a particular task without losing the flexibility to jump from lower output to higher output when the task either changes or demands it (in essence creating 2 separate headlamps that are both easily accessible). It also has the added benefit of having all of the modes available without turning the light off (which to me is very important especially when engaging in activities such as caving).

*Section 1:*


Mode 1 = .5 lm
Mode 2 = 7 lm
Mode 3 = 30 lm
 
*Section 2:*


Mode 4 = 115 lm
Mode 5 = 250 lm
Mode 6 = 550 lm
 

*Section 3:*

Mode 7 = 1010 lm

*Section 4:*


Battery Voltage Indicator
Fast Strobe
Beacon
 

*UI:*

*When the light is turned OFF*.



*Press and Release:* Will put you into the last memorized mode.
*Press and Hold:* Will put you into Mode 1.
 


*When the light is already ON.*



*Double-click:* Will switch between the last memorized mode in Section 1 and the last memorized mode in Section 2. Allowing the user to jump back and forth between Section 1 and Section 2 at will.
 



*Triple click:* From any section it will automatically put you into Section 3 (Turbo mode), if the last click is held, then it is momentary Turbo and will return you to whatever mode you were in from Section 1 or Section 2 upon release. If it is activated permanently (with the last click not being held) then a double-click will put you back into whatever mode you were in from Section 1 or Section 2.
 


*Quad click:* From any Section it will automatically put you into the last memorized mode in Section 4. Double-click will put you back into whatever mode you were in from Section 1 or Section 2.
 



*Press and Hold (if you are in section 1):* It will just cycle from mode 1 to mode 2 to mode 3. It will continue in a loop between the 3 modes until the switch is released and it will be memorized.
 



*Press and Hold (if you are in section 2):* It will just cycle from mode 4 to mode 5 to mode 6. It will continue in a loop between the 3 modes until the switch is released and it will be memorized.
 



*Press and Hold (if you are in section 4):* It will just cycle from the battery voltage indicator to strobe to beacon. It will continue in a loop between the 3 modes until the switch is released and it will be memorized.
 

========================================


*EDC and Personal Impressions:*

I love headlamps, it is my preferred EDC method for having a light on me and I have been EDCing headlamps for years. For me personally it was Zebra Light with their small form factor headlamps that made it a comfortable reality. So the question is, what is it like to EDC the Armytek Wizard Pro? For those of you that don’t want to read the whole section, let me sum it up by just saying, AWESOME.


I think the 1st aspect of EDCing anything is how comfortable is it to do so (let’s face it if it’s not comfortable to carry most people won’t). The Armytek compared to similar style offerings from its competitors is bigger in physical dimension (Fenix, Zebra Light, Xtar, to name a few), but despite this fact it rides very comfortably in the front pocket of pretty much any type of pants or shorts that I’ve worn. The extra heft in weight over its competitors (some of which goes towards heat management) is hardly noticed when riding inside the pocket and the benefit is uninterrupted high lumen output that is light years ahead of what the current class of competitors is capable of, enabling the user to run on Turbo for over an hour.


The beam profile is almost perfect for EDC. It gives a very nice flood, and beyond 2 feet is difficult to notice any type of hotspot. Pretty much everywhere you look there is light. Now if you want just pure flood I still say the Spark SD series is the best in its class but the Armytek comes fairly close with considerably greater throw making it much more versatile.


On the 30 lm mode you can see most things in an indoor environment while getting over 37 hours of runtime. However my all-time favorite mode on this light is the 250 lm mode being fairly bright for both indoor and outdoor use and getting almost 8 hours of runtime (if you think about this it is a pretty amazing achievement in efficiency). The Turbo mode, although rarely used, is just simply WOW (and unlike the competitors, it is only time-limited by the battery capacity). 


So what is the electronic switch like? To say that you need a firm press would be an understatement, requiring some finger pressure to activate the light. Some people may not like it, I definitely like it, but be warned if you have the finger strength of a toddler this may not be the headlamp for you.  One thing is for sure I have yet to accidentally turn this headlamp on.


The electronic switch also acts as a Status Indicator. I think it is great that it will tell you when to change the battery along with the voltage of the battery. It will also alert you to critical temperature and battery scenarios. As far as blinking every 4 seconds as some sort of beacon I personally find this feature annoying, luckily it can be turned off (which is what I do) without affecting the other wonderful aspects of the Status Indicator.


Don’t get me wrong, it definitely will help you locate the light in a dark room from 20 feet away, but take that into an outdoor setting and you will be lucky to see the light from 5 to 7 feet away if dropped into a grassy patch. My preferred method for some sort of beacon or locator for a light is just to leave it in one of the firefly modes (.5lm indoors and 7lm outdoors). I cannot stress how important I think it is to do that in an outdoor setting if you want to have the best chances of finding your light should you drop it (even locating it in a backpack becomes simplified in the dark).


So what is the UI like? For the most part I think it is great and pretty well thought out. It gives you access to the firefly modes directly when the light is off (which I think is crucial). It has a few very unique mode memorization features that are fairly useful. For instance if you are in Section 2 and you double-click you automatically end up in Turbo mode. If you are in Section 1 (the firefly modes) and you double-click you end up in the last memorized mode of Section 2. If the light is off and you just click it on you end up in whatever last mode you used in Section 1 or Section 2. It even memorizes the specialty modes so that if you use the battery voltage indicator the most, it becomes fairly accessible fairly quickly.


So is the UI perfect? Absolutely not. So what do I think can be improved about this particular UI? That was addressed in an email to Armytek as a design suggestion for future renditions of this headlamp and can be seen below under the title “*Proposed Improved UI:*” (stay tuned it’s coming). By reading this section I think most will be able to infer what I feel the shortcomings are of this particular UI as well as how to possibly improve it (what’s the point of complaining if you can’t offer a solution).


The pocket clip that comes with the Wizard enables fairly deep carry. It attaches very securely to the headlamp while still retaining the ability to tail stand and ceiling bounce. The other added benefit of the pocket clip is that it is magnetic (most are so I wouldn’t say that it is a competitor advantage) enabling you to utilize magnets for a whole new world of hands-free operation. You can even make the magnets semipermanent by slipping heat shrink tubing over them and the pocket clip (actually works really well if you want a permanent magnetized solution). I personally have one pocket clip with magnets and heat shrink tubing and one that is just stock. If you go for the permanent solution keep in mind that magnets will mess with your GPS and compass.


If you do decide to use the pocket clip, be warned, it will mess up the finish on your headlamp at the attachment point (fairly quickly I might add). In this regard I think the pocket clip could have been designed a lot better. Speaking of pocket clip improvements, I think it should have been designed a little bit longer to allow even deeper pocket carry (although it is fairly deep) as well as slightly wider to give it better stability when tail standing.


My preferred EDC method for this headlamp is not utilizing the pocket clip, nor the headband, but a hybrid that I created utilizing a simple piece of cord (I use shoelaces but you can use paracord or whatever). This method utilizes 2 attachment points (which is my preferred EDC method for non-outdoor settings) and mimics the headband fairly accurately, allowing for the light to be adjusted up and down (it will actually rotate inside the knots just like with the rubber holder that comes with the headband, and a lot smoother I might add) and holds the headlamp in a horizontal plane just like it would with a headband. The large loop enables the headlamp to be worn like a necklace but operate just like if it was in a headband holder (except that the light is below eye level instead of being above). This design is very stable and the headlight remains rocksolid and does not flop around. If adjusted properly there is no glare into the eyes whatsoever. Individuals EDCing headlamps (or those wishing to) should really try this method, as it gives all of the benefits of the headband without actually having to tote 1 around.









The small loop in the above picture can be utilized as a holder by slipping 2 fingers into it (similar to the way the Quark’s holder functions for those of you that are familiar). It can also be utilized as a point of attachment to a carabiner (or whatever else) as well as keeping the longer cord secure once wrapped around the light (for transport or storage).


Here is a close-up of the 2 knots used. Notice how the cord exits from the same point on the 2 knots, this keeps the light from moving around, while being held rocksolid (if you want to know what kind of knots are used read the “*Alternative Carry Solution:*” portion of the review). The worn off anodizing is not from this method of carry but is from the pocket clip.







When I don’t need to utilizes this feature I simply wrap it around the headlamp and tuck it through the small loop.







So now on to the cosmetics. What is the fit and finish on this particular headlamp? It’s breathtaking when you 1st get the headlamp. Even anodizing. Flat matte finish that doesn’t show fingerprints. With your eyes closed you would swear that the light is textured, when in reality it is not.


Now EDC this particular light for a while and you start to see some noticeable flaws in the finish. The headlamp will start to develop chips on some of the sharp edges. In certain areas where the pocket clip attaches the anodizing has completely worn off. To me these are badges of honor in actually having used the light (and I use it for hours everyday). However, I do take good care of all of my equipment and it would be nice to see a harder anodized finish in the future.


So even with all of the flaws that the light may possess, I still feel this is the next evolutionary step in this particular space of headlamps, and head and shoulders above the competition. Yes I will still use the Zebra Light H51 (for its small size) and H600 (just because it’s an awesome headlamp) along with the Spark (for the modular capabilities along with the best pure flood beam out there). However, the Armytek Wizard Pro will remain my primary EDC, and most notably outdoor headlamp until it is dethroned.


========================================


*Alternative Carry Solution:*

Although the headband and the pocket clip are fairly well-designed sometimes an alternative is needed. Maybe you forgot the headband or it broke. Maybe you don’t want to use the pocket clip because it will ruin the finish on your headlamp (and it will). Maybe you just feel silly putting on a headband if you are just running down the driveway to take out the garbage.

One of the shortcomings of the Armytek Wizard Pro is that it doesn’t have a lanyard attachment. Here is something that I came up with for the Armytek Wizard Pro that lets you attach a lanyard and/or utilize a different carry method (let’s call it the Ironman method).

Having a climbing as well as an outdoor background I started thinking what would be the best way to accomplish securing my favorite headlamp (to date) so as not to lose it during some of my favorite activities. I tried all sorts of different hitches and knots, and this is what I came up with.

In the picture below you have a regular shoelace (you can use para cord with the inside taken out as well but I like having extra shoelaces just in case mine break on the trail) fixed around the headlamp utilizing a constrictor knot*. The loose ends are then secured utilizing a double fisherman, creating a loop. 
*I also sometimes will utilize a clove hitch, it is a lot easier to undo if you need to remove the headlamp but it is not as secure (although in my opinion plenty secure).

Now you can wear this around your neck or clip it to a carabiner or attach it to a shoulder strap of your backpack (or whatever other way you can dream up). When worn around the neck the headlamp is forced (for the most part) to aim forward, resembling the Ironman miniaturized arc reactor. 







What I like to do is raise the headlamp so that the sternum strap of my backpack rest across the headlamp (demonstrated in the picture above with the 1 inch webbing), this prevents the headlamp from bouncing around. This is a very secure and comfortable way to navigate the trails hands-free at night without having something on your head.


Here is a close-up of the constrictor knot. As you can see it is very secure. It also prevents the headlamp from spinning and for the most part points the headlamp straight ahead (because of the way the shoelace exits the knot). The beauty of this setup is that you still have access to the battery compartment without removing the lanyard maintaining a secure hold on the headlamp during a battery change.






========================================

*Battery Selection and Runtime:* 3100 mAh (NCR18650A) vs. 3400 mAh (NCR18650B) 

After performing runtime tests on the 550 lm (Mode 4) and 250lm (Mode 3) levels utilizing 2 different unprotected Panasonic batteries with different capacities here are my summations and my observations and conclusions.


The Panasonic NCR18650B ($16.29) is 23.4% more expensive then the Panasonic NCR18650A ($13.20).
The Panasonic NCR18650B offers 9.7% more capacity then the Panasonic NCR18650A.
The Panasonic NCR18650B offers 7.3 % longer runtimes then the Panasonic NCR18650A at 550 lm (Mode 4).
The Panasonic NCR18650B offers 8.1 % longer runtimes then the Panasonic NCR18650A at 250lm (Mode 3).
 
For this particular headlamp my advice is buy the cheaper 3100 mAh (NCR18650A) battery unless you absolutely need the maximum amount of runtime. 

========================================

*Subfreezing Test:*

Before I take any kind of gear with me on any kind of excursions I like to test it as much as possible in a controlled and safe environment. So as a data point what better way to test cold weather performance then by chucking it into the freezer.

So I took the Armytek Wizard Pro and put it in the freezer for a 12 hour period. At the end of the 12 hours the following was recorded utilizing an infrared thermometer.


Freezer Temperature was 6°F or -14.4°C
Headlamp Temperature was 6°F or -14.4°C
 
After quickly taking temperature measurements I grabbed the headlamp and clicked the ON & OFF switch. The switch worked in the usual manner without any sticking and the headlamp turned on immediately without any hesitation at the last memorized level (250 lm).

I then decided to unscrew the Tail Cap to see if it would be possible to do a battery change under these conditions. The Tail Cap unscrewed without a hitch but needed a little bit more elbow grease due to the thickening of the lubricant.


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## KDM

I'm very interested in the wide neutral version. I hope it turns out to be a nice piece.


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## Knight_Light

KDM said:


> I'm very interested in the wide neutral version. I hope it turns out to be a nice piece.


 I do not have the wide nor the neutral version but the initial impressions are very positive to say the least. The cool version actually appears a lot warmer than I thought it would be. The beam is nice and wide. I recently took it on a night hike and will be posting my comments soon in the review.


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## tobrien

subscribed. nice man!


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## Romanko

Head can be unscrewed?


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## Changchung




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## Knight_Light

tobrien said:


> subscribed. nice man!


 Thanks. I will be posting more pictures soon. If you have any particular questions just ask.


----------



## Knight_Light

Romanko said:


> Head can be unscrewed?


 I've tried with reasonable force and it did not unscrew. But I also didn't push it that far. Also since they only give you two O-rings as a replacement and the tail utilizes a double O-ring seal I would say it does not unscrew.


----------



## markr6

GREAT mode spacing! Please show us the headband when you take more photos. Thanks!


----------



## Knight_Light

markr6 said:


> GREAT mode spacing! Please show us the headband when you take more photos. Thanks!


 
I will get you some pictures of the headband. I just need a few days. I just uploaded more pictures of the light and should be updating the review. But for those of you who were wondering the headband does have a top strap. It is light grey in color with yellow logo writing.

The mode spacing on this light is very good and well thought out. However you almost can’t tell the difference between Mode 1 and Mode 2. The only time you will notice a sizable difference is when your eyes have totally adjusted to the dark. Like after waking up in the middle of the night. I have talked to Armytek about this and we have discussed the possibility of pushing Mode 2 out to 115 lm. It will give the user a more perceived output level of light. Remember this is not a spot beam.

I have spent many hours utilizing this headlamp and will be posting my opinions on all of the light levels soon. Both for indoor use and for hiking camping scenarios.


----------



## MichaelW

How long does Turbo run before stepping down, about 100 seconds?


----------



## Knight_Light

MichaelW said:


> How long does Turbo run before stepping down, 100 seconds?


 
I don't know because I have not pushed it to that point. What I can say is that it ran 7 minutes in 85° weather. The part that houses the emitter got very hot so I stopped the test. This headlamp has thermal management and will let you run Turbo for as long as the temperature stays within a certain range. Obviously during my test that range was not exceeded.


----------



## CamoNinja

Thanks for the review so far. Outdoor beam shots in the future ?


----------



## Knight_Light

CamoNinja said:


> Thanks for the review so far. Outdoor beam shots in the future ?


 You're welcome. As far as outdoor beam shots I will post them if I can get them to get an accurate representation of what I see. I took some pictures while hiking with the headlamp and it just looked horrible. Sorry I am not much of a photographer at night. If I can get a buddy to help me that is into photography I will post them. The stuff I did on my own was not pretty. lol


----------



## Knight_Light

markr6 said:


> Please show us the headband when you take more photos. Thanks!


 Headband photos added.


----------



## MichaelW

Wow. If Mode4 needs to dissipate ~2.5 watts, Turbo is going to need to dissipate ~7.5 watts.


----------



## syracuse

Kindly tell us about the user interface. Do you think the protected NCR18650B, 69.4 mm, will fit in the tube?


----------



## jonathanluu2

Looks great Knight_Light. Im very much liking your review. Tidbits every day to start the morning makes it that much enjoyable.
J.L.


----------



## Knight_Light

MichaelW said:


> Wow. If Mode4 needs to dissipate ~2.5 watts, Turbo is going to need to dissipate ~7.5 watts.


 So far I have managed to run it for 7 minutes straight. That in itself is pretty impressive to me.:thumbsup: Next I will be pushing it beyond 10 minutes while monitoring the head with an infrared thermometer.


----------



## sbbsga

Awesome review, looking forward to the rest. 

Do you have a photo of the switch? Thank you. 


Sent from mobile device.


----------



## Knight_Light

syracuse said:


> Kindly tell us about the user interface. Do you think the protected NCR18650B, 69.4 mm, will fit in the tube?


 
I am working on the user interface portion so please bear with me.

I just updated the review which shows an Orbtronic Protected 3400mAh 18650 Li-ion Rechargeable Battery inside the battery tube with over 1.5 mm to spare. The Orbtronic measures 68.9 mm and utilizes the Panasonic NCR18650B.


----------



## Knight_Light

jonathanluu2 said:


> Looks great Knight_Light. Im very much liking your review. Tidbits every day to start the morning makes it that much enjoyable.
> J.L.


 Thank you I am glad that you are enjoying it.


----------



## Knight_Light

MichaelW said:


> How long does Turbo run before stepping down, about 100 seconds?


 How does 1h 08m continuous sound to you?


----------



## jonathanluu2

Knight_Light said:


> How does 1h 08m continuous sound to you?



Holely Cheese Batman! How does 178F sound! Your light could serve as a backup stove with that kinda temperature! I hope that the non-metallic components (like the switch I assume?) are designed for cyclical temperature fluctuations that extreme, especially if there is a 10yr warranty on it. Knowing you can utilize the turbo for an extended period without it stepping down effectively increases the versatility of the light (assuming you are okay with a small stove on your forehead). 

So that makes me wonder... did the box come with a warning label like "do not use the turbo mode if you have long hair"?


----------



## lightcycle1

Sweet bejeebus!
sounds like an awesome headlamp!
I'll buy one when its available....I've read the thread from Armytek looking for input. Looking good!!

Sent from my SCH-S720C using Tapatalk 2


----------



## Knight_Light

sbbsga said:


> Awesome review, looking forward to the rest.
> 
> Do you have a photo of the switch? Thank you.
> 
> 
> Sent from mobile device.


 
Thank you for the acknowledgment. Pictures of the switch and “State Indication” light posted.


----------



## MichaelW

This needs combination heatsink/knurling on the tailcap, and more heatsinking on the body & head.

80C seems like a battery cell protection, which it can't reach with today's capacity 18650s Looking at the NCR18650B technical specs, it says maximum of 60C ambient temp for discharge. I wonder how hot the junction temperature of the LEDs gets? Could this provide 2nd degree burns to the epidermis?
Heat dissipation wouldn't be a concern if this was your winter only headlight. Maybe if they turn the wick down; say 500 lumens for Mode4, and 750 lumens for Turbo.


----------



## KarstGhost

That is an incredible run time on turbo for such a small light. Must have some decent heat sinking! 

I'd never let a small light run that hot for so long but it is nice to know you can if you have to.


----------



## Knight_Light

jonathanluu2 said:


> Holely Cheese Batman! How does 178F sound! Your light could serve as a backup stove with that kinda temperature! I hope that the non-metallic components (like the switch I assume?) are designed for cyclical temperature fluctuations that extreme, especially if there is a 10yr warranty on it. Knowing you can utilize the turbo for an extended period without it stepping down effectively increases the versatility of the light (assuming you are okay with a small stove on your forehead).
> 
> So that makes me wonder... did the box come with a warning label like "do not use the turbo mode if you have long hair"?


I don’t know about the light acting as a backup stove but it would probably serve well for steeping tea.  

The switch really never got too hot. One of the things I was talking to Armytek about was the importance of customer service. So as long as the light is utilized as it is designed they said they would honor any warranty claims (whether this happens or not is yet to be seen but the intent is there).

Let me start by saying that I have a lot of faith in this light already but there is no way that I would ever run this on turbo over 5 minutes while wearing this on my head. 

You mentioned “effectively increases the versatility of the light” I would agree with this to some point because at the 10 minute mark you cannot hold this headlamp comfortably with your bare hands. Nonetheless I think this headlamp is light years ahead of (pun intended) all of the production offerings in this particular price range.

There were no warnings on the box because this is a preproduction sample. But that is a good suggestion which I will point out to them for the retail product.


----------



## Knight_Light

lightcycle1 said:


> Sweet bejeebus!
> sounds like an awesome headlamp!
> I'll buy one when its available....I've read the thread from Armytek looking for input. Looking good!!
> 
> Sent from my SCH-S720C using Tapatalk 2


 It really is a very impressive headlamp. And despite being larger then some of its competitors it is actually quite pleasant to EDC. The pocket clip, which I will be posting pictures of soon, is very well thought out (except for the issue of marking up the light which hopefully gets solved with the retail unit) and is quite deep.

I have read some of your posts previously on headlamps and I think you would like it if you did not mind the larger format.


----------



## Knight_Light

MichaelW said:


> This needs combination heatsink/knurling on the tailcap, and more heatsinking on the body & head.
> 
> 80C seems like a battery cell protection, which it can't reach with today's capacity 18650s Looking at the NCR18650B technical specs, it says maximum of 60C ambient temp for discharge. I wonder how hot the junction temperature of the LEDs gets? Could this provide 2nd degree burns to the epidermis?
> Heat dissipation wouldn't be a concern if this was your winter only headlight. Maybe if they turn the wick down; say 500 lumens for Mode4, and 750 lumens for Turbo.


I think the primary design is set in stone for this round of the product. Having said that, this headlamp does an excellent job heat sinking. I think that is one of the reasons it is oversized compared to some of its peers in this particular class of product.

Second-degree burn threshold for skin is skin temperature raised to 175°F for more then 1 second. So this is probably theoretically possible although I think realistically improbable (most people would drop the headlamp way before 150°F).

The maximum temperature that I saw the battery reach was around 55°C. So that is right around the threshold that you mention in Panasonic’s datasheet.

Mode 4 is already 550 lm. What would dropping it down to 500 lm do? 750 lm would still get ridiculously hot. I personally think it’s great the way that it is. That’s like limiting a supercar to 70 mi./h because excessive speed is dangerous. I think people should be informed and educated about the capabilities of a product as well as its inherent possible dangers and then have the ability to utilize that product with a risk level that is tolerable to them provided they are responsible to those around them.

As stated earlier I personally would never run this headlamp for more than five minutes on Turbo while wearing it on my head but that doesn’t mean that the product should not have the capability to run for one hour plus.


----------



## jonathanluu2

Knight_Light;4224521750 lm would still get ridiculously hot. I personally think it’s great the way that it is. That’s like limiting a supercar to 70 mi./h because excessive speed is dangerous. I think people should be informed and educated about the capabilities of a product as well as its inherent possible dangers and then have the ability to utilize that product with a risk level that is tolerable to them provided they are responsible to those around them.
[/QUOTE said:


> Very well spoken. I agree. I would rather have the full capability of the light and let the user decide thier level of comfort with risk. What if someone decided to go night riding with this light? It now has increased convection, and is strapped to the outside of a helmet. My opinion (and it is only an opinion) is that the risk of riding a bike at night exceeds the risk of the light at this point.
> 
> HOWEVER. 178F is still very hot and would require particular attention.


----------



## Knight_Light

jonathanluu2 said:


> HOWEVER. 178F is still very hot and would require particular attention.


 Thank You. Here is a real kick in the head. The tests were done in a climate controlled room temperature setting. In a different setting it might go higher in which case it should trip the thermal safety (although I have not verified if this safety actually works). It would be interesting what kind of temperatures it will generate in subfreezing environments. In reality I think most people that are concerned with runtime will use this high output in very short bursts. I already did a bunch of night hiking with his headlamp and will be posting my opinions on all of the light levels.


----------



## Knight_Light

syracuse said:


> Kindly tell us about the user interface.


 User interface posted.


----------



## stp

Knight_Light said:


> User interface posted.



*EDIT: I misunderstood how the interface operates - it was clarified in following posts.*

Sad to say but I'm disappointed with that interface. I remember discussion about it in the marketplace thread when they couldn't tell us all the details but there where claims that it will be very good - comparable to ZL. For me it's nowhere near ZL. If I understand it correctly than you have access only to two modes (the one selected at power on and maximum) + strobe when the light is on. If you want to use any other mode you have to switch the light off, press and hold and wait for the desired mode. 

Worst case scenario: you want to use not memorized Mode 4, the light is on at other mode. You have to switch light off, press and hold and wait for the light to go trough Firefly 1,Firefly 2, Mode 1, Mode 2, Mode 3 to reach Mode 4. 

Is that correct? Or did I understand the instruction wrong?

Other than that it's very nice light, I like that glowing button.


----------



## Romanko

Looks like UI in Zebra much more easier.


----------



## Knight_Light

Just posted an updated description of the UI.


----------



## Knight_Light

stp said:


> For me it's nowhere near ZL. If I understand it correctly than you have access only to two modes (the one selected at power on and maximum) + strobe when the light is on. If you want to use any other mode you have to switch the light off, press and hold and wait for the desired mode.


 
It is definitely different than ZL, but overall I like it and in my opinion it is better. Your interpretation of the UI is incorrect. I updated the UI in the review. I hope I was able to clarify it better than the unofficial manual.



stp said:


> Worst case scenario: you want to use not memorized Mode 4, the light is on at other mode. You have to switch light off, press and hold and wait for the light to go trough Firefly 1,Firefly 2, Mode 1, Mode 2, Mode 3 to reach Mode 4.
> 
> Is that correct? Or did I understand the instruction wrong?


 
A complete explanation can be seen in the review. But to answer your question let’s do worst-case scenario. So you said the light is ON (worst-case scenario it is ON and Firefly 1). 
Option 1: Press & Hold. 5 seconds later you are in Mode 4.
Option 2: Double-Click. Press & Hold. 3 seconds later you are in Mode 4.

So now do the worst-case scenario for ZL to one of the deepest sublevels. “The second sub-level of the High can be configured after 6 double clicks.” That is a lot of clicking.



stp said:


> Other than that it's very nice light, I like that glowing button.


It is an awesome light. Even if you may not like the UI the output levels and the runtimes are on another level with anything in this class. The optics are awesome as well I just don’t talk about them because I haven’t been able to capture them in pictures. 

The flashing button can be annoying at times even though I can see some good uses for it. Good thing you can turn it off in the settings. lol


----------



## Knight_Light

Romanko said:


> Looks like UI in Zebra much more easier.


 I have used both. I can honestly say that zebra light is not easier. Don't get me wrong zebra light has a nice interface. I like it and I am a fan of it. This is different and will take a little bit of time to get used to but you can easily jump to any level without much effort. I wrote an update on the UI in the review hopefully I was able to explain it a little bit better then the unofficial manual.


----------



## Sukram

I would like to purchase one of Wizard too. Want this headlamp, very very much
:thanks: Knight light


----------



## Knight_Light

Sukram said:


> I would like to purchase one of Wizard too. Want this headlamp, very very much
> :thanks: Knight light


 You are welcome. Unfortunately this headlamp is not for sale yet but hopefully will be soon. They are making some final changes and adjustments.


----------



## Romanko

Knight_Light said:


> They are making some final changes and adjustments.


Would be nice if they make changing modes only with switch button without screwing tailcap.


----------



## Knight_Light

Romanko said:


> Would be nice if they make changing modes only with switch button without screwing tailcap.


 To switch modes you do not have to do anything but use the button. The only time you screw and unscrew the tail Is when you want to activate or deactivate certain features.


----------



## syracuse

Knight_Light said:


> I do not have the wide nor the neutral version but the initial impressions are very positive to say the least. The cool version actually appears a lot warmer than I thought it would be. The beam is nice and wide. I recently took it on a night hike and will be posting my comments soon in the review.



Thanks for a grate review :thumbsup:
I plan to buy a copy of NW version too. But if the CW is as warm as the CW Eagletac D25 series, I might change my mind. Could you please post the white wall beam shot of this light compare to the CW of ZL oo:?


----------



## Knight_Light

These are the changes to both the prototype headlamp and the review.


One of the strobes was replaced by a decimal voltage indicator. You can now tell the voltage of the battery under load.
Mode 2 in the prototype headlamp has been updated from 75 lm to 115 lm.
The unofficial Armytek manual has been updated by Armytek.


----------



## stp

Knight_Light said:


> It is definitely different than ZL, but overall I like it and in my opinion it is better. Your interpretation of the UI is incorrect. I updated the UI in the review. I hope I was able to clarify it better than the unofficial manual.


 
Thanks, now it gets much better. Previously it looked from the instruction like click and hold when on would temporally switch to turbo. 

And I agree they are different. They offer different advantages but I now can't say witch one would be better for me without playing with Armytek first. On one hand you have Armytek that offers momentary modes, fast access to Turbo all the time (and momentary Turbo with going back to previous mode) and easier access to strobe. On the other hand ZL have better access to firefly modes, way to easy switch to lower mode without going trough higher (blinding) and more hidden modes that allow you to better configure light for your needs especially at the lower end. I guess major point in deciding between them will depend if somebody uses mostly high-medium modes (Armytek) or firefly-medium (ZL). Obviously Armytek will be more powerful for now, H600 is kinda dated now.



Knight_Light said:


> So now do the worst-case scenario for ZL to one of the deepest sublevels. “The second sub-level of the High can be configured after 6 double clicks.” That is a lot of clicking.



I think that you are not fair here. This kind of operation isn't meant for constant use. It allows to better configure it for your needs. So you have 3 default modes + 3 other you may choose from 8 or so (8 in case of SC600, much less in case of older H600) in setup phase. If Armytek offered a way to fine tune Modes 1-4 to you liking somewhere deep in setup I wouldn't hold it against them and I would think about it as big advantage.


----------



## Knight_Light

stp said:


> On one hand you have Armytek that offers momentary modes, fast access to Turbo all the time (and momentary Turbo with going back to previous mode)


You only have access to Turbo all of the time if you are in Section 2. Double-clicking from Section 1 will bring you into the last memorized mode in Section 2. Once you are in Section 2 you have access to Turbo all the time regardless of mode.



stp said:


> and easier access to strobe.


 
Now with the specialty modes (including battery voltage indication as well as strobe) those you have access to from either Section 1 or Section 2 simply by quad clicking.



stp said:


> On the other hand ZL have better access to firefly modes, way to easy switch to lower mode without going trough higher (blinding) and more hidden modes that allow you to better configure light for your needs especially at the lower end.


 
This is incorrect. Access to the firefly modes is exactly the same in both lights, simply press and hold. The advantage with Armytek being that if you want to go into the next firefly mode you just simply continue to hold whereas with zebra light you have more clicks.




stp said:


> I guess major point in deciding between them will depend if somebody uses mostly high-medium modes (Armytek) or firefly-medium (ZL). Obviously Armytek will be more powerful for now, H600 is kinda dated now.


 
This is incorrect and the decision will be based on other factors. See the comment directly above.





stp said:


> I think that you are not fair here. This kind of operation isn't meant for constant use. It allows to better configure it for your needs. So you have 3 default modes + 3 other you may choose from 8 or so (8 in case of SC600, much less in case of older H600) in setup phase. If Armytek offered a way to fine tune Modes 1-4 to you liking somewhere deep in setup I wouldn't hold it against them and I would think about it as big advantage.


 
I think it is absolutely fair considering they wanted a worst-case scenario. 


I understand that both the unofficial manual and my writeup are not the clearest since there have been a lot of misinterpretations of the UI. So I think the only way to clarify this is if you ask direct questions like. The light is off, how do I get into firefly modes? Click and hold would be the answer.


----------



## stp

Knight_Light said:


> You only have access to Turbo all of the time if you are in Section 2. Double-clicking from Section 1 will bring you into the last memorized mode in Section 2. Once you are in Section 2 you have access to Turbo all the time regardless of mode.



There is some clarification needed about Section 1 access at the bottom of this post. For me Section 2 is what I interpret as main section. This is why I ignored access from section 1 to not make the post longer. I think that it's not a problem because I told that IMHO it's better in ArmyTek. Anyway I understand that you want to clarify some of my points to not confuse others or to correct me in case of my another misunderstanding.




Knight_Light said:


> This is incorrect. Access to the firefly modes is exactly the same in both lights, simply press and hold. The advantage with Armytek being that if you want to go into the next firefly mode you just simply continue to hold whereas with zebra light you have more clicks.



You need to correct your instruction than because it says: 


> You Press and Release the ON & OFF switch. This puts you into the previous mode used (Firefly 1, Firefly 2, Mode 1, Mode 2, Mode 3 or Mode 4) except for Turbo and Strobe.
> 
> 
> Now if you decide to click and hold it will go to the next highest level. In one of the following ways (if you release the ON & OFF switch at any moment you will stay in whatever light level you were in).
> If you are in Section 1 it will increase in level until you get into Section 2. It will go through all of the levels in Section 2 and then jump back down to the lowest level in Section 2 (Mode 1) and then repeat the process for as long as the switch is held down.
> *If you are in Section 2 it will increase in level until you are in Mode 4 and then it will cycle back down to Mode 1. It will repeat the process for as long as the switch is held down.*



From here I understood that when the light is ON the only way to go back to firefly is by turning it OFF and press and hold. 

So lets clarify:
When the light is ON in Section 2 and you press and hold, do the light cycle only trough Section 2 or trough Section 2 and Section 1? At what level the cycling starts? Firefly 1? One step higher than current?



Knight_Light said:


> This is incorrect and the decision will be based on other factors. See the comment directly above.



If the instruction is correct and you need to turn the light OFF to access Firefly then ZL have easier accessible Firefly modes.

If the cycling starts at any other level than firefly 1 you still have issue with blinding when switching to lower mode without going off.

And ZL has more low modes...so lets say that I still stand by my opinion. Depending on your answer the advantage of ZL in low modes will be quite serious or very small but it will be there. For high modes ArmyTek is for me not disutable winner after your clarification. But I'm not going to sugercoat things that I find important in deciding my next light 



Knight_Light said:


> I think it is absolutely fair considering they wanted a worst-case scenario.


 
Bullshit. They? I wanted it but I don't think that setup options are part of regular usage patterns. Are you PR person for Armytek or are you going to honestly review it and compare with closest competition? :nana:


----------



## Knight_Light

stp said:


> For me Section 2 is what I interpret as main section.


You are correct in this regard.




stp said:


> You need to correct your instruction than because it says:


 
That is for when the light is already ON not from the off position.




stp said:


> From here I understood that when the light is ON the only way to go back to firefly is by turning it OFF and press and hold.


 
That is correct.



stp said:


> When the light is ON in Section 2 and you press and hold, do the light cycle only trough Section 2 or trough Section 2 and Section 1? At what level the cycling starts? Firefly 1? One step higher than current?


Just through section 2 one step higher then current unless you are in the mode 4 then it will go to mode 1.





stp said:


> If the instruction is correct and you need to turn the light OFF to access Firefly then ZL have easier accessible Firefly modes.


 That is true unless you are talking about going to one of the sublevels in firefly.



stp said:


> I wanted it but I don't think that setup options are part of regular usage patterns.


 They are part of the regular usage patterns if you need access to those levels. What if somebody needs access to both firefly levels?




stp said:


> Are you PR person for Armytek or are you going to honestly review it and compare with closest competition?


 
First of all I am doing this review to help people like you make an informed purchase decision based on facts and MY opinion of those facts it has nothing to do with PR for Armytek. As a matter of fact I have recommended zebra light as well as spark (another headlamp I love) in the forums. 

So you can ask me questions about the light and I can answer them honestly and you can make your own decision with your hard-earned money or you can debate MY opinion on who’s UI is better, remember it’s just an opinion not fact. 

The headlamp market is so underdeveloped compared to the flashlight market that when a company like Armytek comes out with an offering and at the same time asks the consumer for input I get excited about it and I am sorry that you feel that my enthusiasm for a product that I feel is the next evolution in this space is some sort of PR for Armytek. But I guess you can't make everybody happy.


----------



## markr6

stp said:


> Are you PR person for Armytek or are you going to honestly review it and compare with closest competition? :nana:



Sorry, but I wondered the same thing. And since my day already sucks here at work, I will try and not to come back to this thread for a few days to see how bad I get flamed


----------



## Knight_Light

Just posted the results of the Subfreezing Test. Passed at 6°F or -14.4°C.


----------



## f22shift

maybe i'm stupid the UI seems a bit overly complicated. i know zebralight offers tweaks but those are hidden. i can explain the ui to a non flashaholic in a few sentences. did you develop the UI for your needs or was there research on armytek's end.

there are definitely some nice features of the light. the indicator button. i like that the headlamp holder is wider at the ends which i think will improve the comfort.

i would like to see that bezel have notches for a needle nose pliers to swap out the optic for whatever you want. i hope it's not a pressed fit bezel. those are never entirely waterproof which would seem silly with a double o-ring at the battery end.


----------



## Knight_Light

f22shift said:


> maybe i'm stupid the UI seems a bit overly complicated.


 
I don’t think you or anyone else is stupid for having confusion over a UI that you don’t have access to physically. Having said that Armytek has had confusion in the past with some other products. Maybe that is the trade-off for having a robust and feature-rich product. 



f22shift said:


> i know zebralight offers tweaks but those are hidden. i can explain the ui to a non flashaholic in a few sentences.


 
But then again you can always argue that those tweaks are part of the UI which complicates the overall operation of the headlamp. Don’t get me wrong I think zebra light has a fantastic UI. And when Armytek was asking for input on the CPF marketplace it was discussed.

Having said that. If I was to give this headlamp to a buddy on an expedition that had no idea how to use this UI I would tell them the basics and it would go something like this.



Click and release the switch to turn on.
Click and release the switch to turn off.
Press and hold to cycle through different light levels.
If you need access to lowest mode just make sure you turn off the headlamp then press and hold. If you need additional light continue holding until you reach a light level that you need.
 



f22shift said:


> did you develop the UI for your needs or was there research on armytek's end.


 
I had nothing to do with the development of the UI. I can or cannot say how much research Armytek did but I can tell you that they were on the marketplace asking for input for certain aspects of the light.



f22shift said:


> i would like to see that bezel have notches for a needle nose pliers to swap out the optic for whatever you want. i hope it's not a pressed fit bezel. those are never entirely waterproof which would seem silly with a double o-ring at the battery end.


 
The bezel is press fit according to Armytek. I know this is a bummer for a lot of people. I personally prefer screw in bezel’s. That is the one thing that I really enjoy on the Spark. As far as the waterproof issue goes I will be doing a 10 foot dynamic dive test with it. Let’s hope for the best.


----------



## sbbsga

Knight_Light said:


> As far as the waterproof issue goes I will be doing a 10 foot dynamic dive test with it. Let’s hope for the best.



If you have the time, would it be possible to have another dive test where the Wizard is at peak temperature on Turbo before it takes a dive into the water. The objective is to see if there is water ingress at rapid cooling. My ZL H502 has this problem at the bezel, maybe at the switch too but I could only guess as it is not see-through.


----------



## Knight_Light

sbbsga said:


> If you have the time, would it be possible to have another dive test where the Wizard is at peak temperature on Turbo before it takes a dive into the water. The objective is to see if there is water ingress at rapid cooling. My ZL H502 has this problem at the bezel, maybe at the switch too but I could only guess as it is not see-through.


 
I think this is a great idea and will make for an interesting data point. I think this would be no different then someone hiking and accidentally falling into and/or dropping the headlamp into a body of water. Since the headlamp is unbearably hot on Turbo to hold with the naked hand I will do the test on Mode 4 (550 lm) to simulate a more realistic test.


----------



## sbbsga

Knight_Light said:


> I think this is a great idea and will make for an interesting data point. I think this would be no different then someone hiking and accidentally falling into and/or dropping the headlamp into a body of water. Since the headlamp is unbearably hot on Turbo to hold with the naked hand I will do the test on Mode 4 (550 lm) to simulate a more realistic test.



Thank you, looking forward to the results.


----------



## stp

Knight_Light said:


> <CUT>



Thanks for clarification.




Knight_Light said:


> That is true unless you are talking about going to one of the sublevels in firefly.
> They are part of the regular usage patterns if you need access to those levels. What if somebody needs access to both firefly levels?



This thread is not about ZL and I don't want to distract it more (I already know all what I needed), so to keep it short: In ZL UI you have easy access to two (so yes, both) firefly levels from ON and OFF. First by click and hold, second by doubleclick after reaching first. Now, depending on particular light it could be all (H600 - 2.8 lm and 0.1 lm) or you have additional feature - you can preselect second mode from few given choices (SC600 default 3lm and one from: 0.6lm / 0.1lm/ 0.02lm) - yes preselecting is not fast but after you do it you have easy access to two firefly modes -3 lm and the preselected one. At last there is option to do that at all compared to ArmyTek. If you ever used ZL you should already know that all. I'm really feeling like I'm explaining it to the wall so it was my last try.



Knight_Light said:


> First of all I am doing this review to help people like you make an informed purchase decision based on facts and MY opinion of those facts it has nothing to do with PR for Armytek. As a matter of fact I have recommended zebra light as well as spark (another headlamp I love) in the forums.
> 
> So you can ask me questions about the light and I can answer them honestly and you can make your own decision with your hard-earned money or you can debate MY opinion on who’s UI is better, remember it’s just an opinion not fact.
> 
> The headlamp market is so underdeveloped compared to the flashlight market that when a company like Armytek comes out with an offering and at the same time asks the consumer for input I get excited about it and I am sorry that you feel that my enthusiasm for a product that I feel is the next evolution in this space is some sort of PR for Armytek. But I guess you can't make everybody happy.



There is quite thick line between cheering newcomer and doing *trusted *review. I have nothing against different opinions, I can respect them if they are based on logical arguments or if it's matter of preference. But some things you said in my opinion weren't very logical and you lost my trust. I'm wishing ArmyTek all the best because you are right - we need fresh blood and this headlamp have potential to be very good light but IMHO it's not all roses, it have many strong points but in my opinion it have also few weaker points that I tried to point in my previous posts. Personally the need to turn the light off even for a very short time to operate it in that two cases bothers me very much but I plan to give it a chance and check it if I will have opportunity.

Btw. Aswering other post: If somebody will want to borrow ArmyTek to somebody unenlightened , IMHO the easiest and most straightforward way will be to switch it to tactical mode. It will make it very simple light to operate, you can preselect powermode and you don't need to bother with explaining the interface at all. And I think that it's another strong point of ArmyTek.


----------



## Knight_Light

stp said:


> There is quite thick line between cheering newcomer and doing trusted review. I have nothing against different opinions, I can respect them if they are based on logical arguments or if it's matter of preference. But some things you said in my opinion weren't very logical and you lost my trust. I'm wishing ArmyTek all the best because you are right - we need fresh blood and this headlamp have potential to be very good light but IMHO it's not all roses, it have many strong points but in my opinion it have also few weaker points that I tried to point in my previous posts.


 
I understand the point that you are trying to make. So let me clarify my stance on all of this. *The first 2 entries of this thread are the review. The first entry is based strictly on facts and therefore is unbiased. The second entry is a mixture of fact, opinion and whatever combination of the two that may happen and therefore is biased according to my opinions, knowledge base, and previous experience (mind you all of this was posted in advance). Almost every other post by me in this thread is an interaction with someone such as yourself and is based on my opinion.
*
So if I lost your trust that’s fine and I respect that for the reasons that you gave. My suggestion is that you then just focus on the very first entry of this thread which is based on fact and it will give you an unbiased interpretation of the product. 



stp said:


> Btw. Aswering other post: If somebody will want to borrow ArmyTek to somebody unenlightened , IMHO the easiest and most straightforward way will be to switch it to tactical mode. It will make it very simple light to operate, you can preselect powermode and you don't need to bother with explaining the interface at all. And I think that it's another strong point of ArmyTek.


 
That is not a bad idea on paper but in reality it would make very little sense. Most people would not want to keep their finger on a button to generate light output, especially in a headlamp (for which one of the strong points is hands-free operation).


----------



## beamon

Thanks very much, Knight_Light, for your excellent, detailed, and ongoing review of what looks like a wonderful headlamp. Although it presents some heat issues when used at high brightness levels, I'm especially impressed with how long it works at medium levels with a single battery. Armytek's specs on its water resistance (33 yd of submersion) and impact resistance (a drop of 33 ft) look incredible. 

While it sounds like getting some hiking shots of the beam has posed some challenges, I wonder if you might be able to post some beam shots taken against a white wall. It would be great to see the tint and to get some sense of how the headlamp distributes light. Thanks so much for all your help!


----------



## Knight_Light

Pocket clip pictures posted.


----------



## Knight_Light

beamon said:


> Thanks very much, Knight_Light, for your excellent, detailed, and ongoing review of what looks like a wonderful headlamp.


 
You’re quite welcome.



beamon said:


> I'm especially impressed with how long it works at medium levels with a single battery.


 
The runtimes are really something else. I will be redoing some of the tests utilizing a Panasonic 3400 mAh cell. I am curious to see how much more runtime can be had.



beamon said:


> Armytek's specs on its water resistance (33 yd of submersion) and impact resistance (a drop of 33 ft) look incredible.


 
I haven’t tested either one of those yet. My guess is it will do fairly well with the impact test, unless it lands awkwardly onto the lens. The headlamp is built like a tank.

The waterproof rating I am a little less confident about. That is why I will be testing it down to only 10 feet for 10 minutes, but I will be making it into a dynamic waterproof test. If it passes the dynamic waterproof test at 10 feet that will be quite an accomplishment in its own right.




beamon said:


> While it sounds like getting some hiking shots of the beam has posed some challenges, I wonder if you might be able to post some beam shots taken against a white wall. It would be great to see the tint and to get some sense of how the headlamp distributes light. Thanks so much for all your help!


 I have already taken the headlamp hiking and camping on numerous occasions. It’s not the hiking part, it’s the camera part that I am having a hard time with. Lol 

So until I get the night photography thing sorted out you can see a beam shot that was not taken by me at the following link.

http://www.cpfmarketplace.com/mp/showthread.php?288932-Armytek-wizard


----------



## KDM

Excuse me if I missed it, when is estimated release date?


----------



## Knight_Light

KDM said:


> Excuse me if I missed it, when is estimated release date?


I personally do not know. And Armytek has not indicated anything on the forums. When asked by others on the forums their reply is “soon”. According to the timeline manufacturers function under, soon can be two weeks or it could be two months. lol


----------



## Hogokansatsukan

Why did I have to open this thread? Nice review and now I'm clutching my wallet in vain. I know I'll just have to have one. I've been around here long enough to know better than to start opening and reading threads like this. Perhaps Armytek can delay the release long enough for me to forget about this headlamp... not likely.


----------



## Knight_Light

Hogokansatsukan said:


> Why did I have to open this thread? Nice review and now I'm clutching my wallet in vain. I know I'll just have to have one. I've been around here long enough to know better than to start opening and reading threads like this. Perhaps Armytek can delay the release long enough for me to forget about this headlamp... not likely.


 Thank you for the compliment. I think we both spoke too soon it seems the first units will be auctioned off within the next few days. They announced this morning on CPF marketplace. What that actually means I have no idea but you can read about it at this link. http://www.cpfmarketplace.com/mp/sh...mytek-wizard&p=4758870&viewfull=1#post4758870


----------



## Cereal_Killer

Oh man a TIR! I really don't like TIR's, does it happen to be glass (and/or have a glass lens over the TIR?)

There are multiple lights (several surefires and others) I really wanted/liked but the inclusion of a TIR keept me from purchasing. It's just a personal preference really, otherwise it looks like a great light, this thread is the first place I've seen pictures of it and I'm very surprised by its looks.


----------



## Beacon of Light

I can't believe I am the first to say this but .5 lumen is considered Firefly mode? REALLY? How about .05 lumen to make it more usable? This isn't 2005 any more, do these companies not read posts here on CPF to realize that users as a whole WANT sublumen modes. Heck you'd think competitors of Zebralight would get it. Zebralight does, and their .01 lumen modes don't disappoint. I can't see why other competitors don't get it... I also can't believe that with 67 posts before mine, no one has even mentioned this point? What's going on CPFers are you losing your touch? Where are all the low lumen freaks?


----------



## toysareforboys

Beacon of Light said:


> I can't believe I am the first to say this but .5 lumen is considered Firefly mode? REALLY? How about .05 lumen to make it more usable? This isn't 2005 any more, do these companies not read posts here on CPF to realize that users as a whole WANT sublumen modes. Heck you'd think competitors of Zebralight would get it. Zebralight does, and their .01 lumen modes don't disappoint. I can't see why other competitors don't get it... I also can't believe that with 67 posts before mine, no one has even mentioned this point? What's going on CPFers are you losing your touch? Where are all the low lumen freaks?


I don't know what the actual lumen level is, of my Zebralight SC600 MKii's lowest mode, but DAMN it's purrrdy  Lowest mode on the MKii on the left, lowest low on the old SC600 on the right.




LICK FOR HIGH RES or LICK HERE FOR UBER HIGH RES!

I use it all the time, I'm able to go to the bathroom at night without waking up the GF. No other flashlight has went low enough not to wake her up! 

-Jamie M.


----------



## Beacon of Light

^ exactly my point. Is Armytek not concerned about people (who once they have such a low low, they cannot be without it in a new light) who have to have such a low low? It's like they arent even aware people WANT low lows. Where have these companies eyes and ears been for the last 10 years?


----------



## Knight_Light

Cereal_Killer said:


> Oh man a TIR! I really don't like TIR's, does it happen to be glass (and/or have a glass lens over the TIR?)
> 
> There are multiple lights (several surefires and others) I really wanted/liked but the inclusion of a TIR keept me from purchasing. It's just a personal preference really, otherwise it looks like a great light, this thread is the first place I've seen pictures of it and I'm very surprised by its looks.


 
The TIR optic itself is made from high quality acrylic glass. It is then protected by tempered glass which has an AR coating on it.

Personal preferences one can’t really dispute. But if I may give you a recommendation, give them a second chance. Not only can it be more effective then a reflector but you have a lot of flexibility to create different beam scenarios. You could have a spill as tight as 5° or as wide as 120° for example.


----------



## tony613

Beacon of Light said:


> I can't believe I am the first to say this but .5 lumen is considered Firefly mode? REALLY? How about .05 lumen to make it more usable? This isn't 2005 any more, do these companies not read posts here on CPF to realize that users as a whole WANT sublumen modes. Heck you'd think competitors of Zebralight would get it. Zebralight does, and their .01 lumen modes don't disappoint. I can't see why other competitors don't get it... I also can't believe that with 67 posts before mine, no one has even mentioned this point? What's going on CPFers are you losing your touch? Where are all the low lumen freaks?



Another +1. 

I have an H600w. The low has a stated rating of 0.09 Lm. and is a mode I use very often indoors. I of course use it on higher modes when cycling, and when running in the short daylight hours of winter. 

Not being able to see most lights in action, and needing to go on spec sheets alone, I would likely pass on any light whose lowest mode is above 0.1 Lm. Even with all of its strong points, this Armytek currently falls into the "have to pass" category for me, which is a shame. Hope they change this. YMMV.


----------



## Knight_Light

Link to the first official manual now pasted in the review.


----------



## Beacon of Light

tony613 said:


> Not being about to see most lights in action, and needing to go on spec sheets only, I would likely pass on any light whose lowest mode is above 0.1 Lm. Even with all of its strong points, this Armytek currently falls into the "have to pass" category for me, which is a shame. Hope they change this. YMMV.



+1

I can't imagine how many lights and headlamps I have passed on purely for this reason alone. That said the Zebralights suit me fine and all of the ZLs I own get used 97% of the time and the dozens and dozens of other lights/headlamps I own get relegated to being shelf queens. That said I wish there were other competitors that would try to at least one-up Zebralight, if for nothing else than to instill healthy competition. What seems pathetic is a copycat of something like Zebralight, but then fail on a huge scale such as not offering the same or better run-time and same or better low lumens. Heck they are not even close with Zebralight mopping the floor with competitors that are coming to the game years later.


----------



## Knight_Light

Runtime on the 550 lm (Mode 4) has now been CONFIRMED at 3h and 12m with an unprotected 3400 mAh Panasonic battery (NCR18650B). :thumbsup:


----------



## Girryn

Beacon of Light said:


> ^ exactly my point. Is Armytek not concerned about people (who once they have such a low low, they cannot be without it in a new light) who have to have such a low low? It's like they arent even aware people WANT low lows. Where have these companies eyes and ears been for the last 10 years?



What function does a sub .5 lumen low have for you? I have very sensitive night vision and find anything less than 1 lumen in a dispersed beam unusable even with dark adapted eyes. I am having trouble understanding what function such low lows serve other than satisfying an artificial need created by the cpf hivemind.
Even with the more focused beam of my rotary the low modes are not very functional. The only time I use it is when I need light in the middle of the night and my light blocking curtains are still on from the night shift schedule. If the curtains are not on, the the starlight from the window outshines the lowest modes.


----------



## Knight_Light

CamoNinja said:


> Thanks for the review so far. Outdoor beam shots in the future ?


 
As you requested here are the outdoor beam shots of Firefly 1, Firefly 2, and Mode 1. You can view them in the first portion of the review.


----------



## Sukram

Knight Light, thanks, good job! looking forward to the release of this headlamp.


----------



## Beacon of Light

One HUGE example is runtime. Have you ever checked out the runtime specs of a Zebralight? The H502 uses AA batteries mind you, but on the .06 lumen level you get 2 months of continuous light. 2 MONTHS!!!! The .01 lumen level is 3 MONTHS!!!!

I have to laugh when people are all excited when a light's runtime is listed in minutes or hours before failure when Zebralight gives runtime in days, weeks or months. This all adds up to cost savings in batteries or electricity when you have to recharge the batteries. All I ever need to use in any of my Zebralight's are the L1 or L2 in the H502s and the L1 I have set to .06 lumens in one and .01 lumens in the other.

Also you've heard of the "preserving night vision" aspect of low lumen lights haven't you? Also prevents others from being awaken if used at night and it is also a stealth form of light when YOU do not want to be seen.




Girryn said:


> What function does a sub .5 lumen low have for you? I have very sensitive night vision and find anything less than 1 lumen in a dispersed beam unusable even with dark adapted eyes. I am having trouble understanding what function such low lows serve other than satisfying an artificial need created by the cpf hivemind.
> Even with the more focused beam of my rotary the low modes are not very functional. The only time I use it is when I need light in the middle of the night and my light blocking curtains are still on from the night shift schedule. If the curtains are not on, the the starlight from the window outshines the lowest modes.


----------



## Knight_Light

Beacon of Light said:


> One HUGE example is runtime. Have you ever checked out the runtime specs of a Zebralight? The H502 uses AA batteries mind you, but on the .06 lumen level you get 2 months of continuous light. 2 MONTHS!!!! The .01 lumen level is 3 MONTHS!!!!
> 
> I have to laugh when people are all excited when a light's runtime is listed in minutes or hours before failure when Zebralight gives runtime in days, weeks or months. This all adds up to cost savings in batteries or electricity when you have to recharge the batteries.


 
To me personally the most important and impressive features about a light are the runtime’s at their respective light output levels. I have always been a huge fan of zebra light for these particular reasons (and still am). That is why I am so excited about Armytek putting out the Wizard Pro as it is even more efficient than the zebra lights, to the tune of almost 40% at some light levels.


----------



## Beacon of Light

to users like myself that never use the 200+ lumens "brighter than the sun" levels the 40% efficiency isn't as important as multiole efficient low modes. To me it has always been about runtime and it always will. 74Sevens started this with their 30 days of moon mode on their Quark AA2 and Zebralight has just furthered that efficiency in sub lumen modes.


----------



## Knight_Light

Beacon of Light said:


> to users like myself that never use the 200+ lumens "brighter than the sun" levels the 40% efficiency isn't as important as multiole efficient low modes. To me it has always been about runtime and it always will. 74Sevens started this with their 30 days of moon mode on their Quark AA2 and Zebralight has just furthered that efficiency in sub lumen modes.


 
You can’t argue with someone’s personal preferences, and I definitely respect yours. It's funny that you mention 4/7 as they were the ones that got me into low-level light levels and then zebra light totally got me hooked with what they were doing in terms of runtimes and the fact that they had headlamps offerings (never quite understood why 4/7 never got into the headlamp market, instead coming up with that crazy periscope thing as a solution). That is why I am so hyped on the Wizard Pro because they are taking this to another level.

For me my favorite light levels on the Wizard Pro are 250 lm, 30lm, and 7lm. So for me efficiency is even more appreciated because of the higher output levels. At 250 lm I can get around 8 hours of runtime whereas with the zebra light its around 4 hours. To me that is a huge difference for the way that I utilize my headlamps. Same holds true for the 30 lm and 7 lm levels being way more efficient then anything else out there by a great deal of margin.

At the sub lumen level the Wizard Pro is over 100% more efficient. But for me personally it doesn’t matter that much since I don’t envision going more then 3 weeks without having access to power. Even when going to off the grid locations I always have access to solar not to mention I always carry a few backup batteries for redundancy.


----------



## Knight_Light

Runtime on the 250 lm (Mode 3) has now been CONFIRMED at 7h and 59m with an unprotected 3400 mAh Panasonic battery (NCR18650B). :thumbsup:


----------



## Glenn7

These are up for sale now


----------



## Knight_Light

Glenn7 said:


> These are up for sale now


 Good Catch. I wasn't even aware that they had a XM-L2 U3 version.


----------



## Glenn7

Difference between the XM-L2 and XM-L2 U3 is only 70 lumens - If you buy the plain old L2 version you save $10 and they throw in a free battery and charger worth $30 untill July 7 :thumbsup:


----------



## Knight_Light

Glenn7 said:


> Difference between the XM-L2 and XM-L2 U3 is only 70 lumens - If you buy the plain old L2 version you save $10 and they throw in a free battery and charger worth $30 untill July 7 :thumbsup:


 I didn’t even know they had that deal going on, basically it lets somebody get into the 18650 game for free. :thumbsup:

That is a great battery they are giving away, it is actually one of the batteries I used in my runtime test for this particular headlamp. The charger is so-so. 

I agree that there is not much difference between the U3 and U2 in terms of light output but some people need to have the latest and greatest. However, I would be interested in testing the difference in runtime. It would not be much, but I bet it would push the 250 lm level up to around 8 hours 10 minutes which is an amazing accomplishment in efficiency.


----------



## toysareforboys

Placed my order for the U3 Wide  Free shipping too! WOOT!

-Jamie M.


----------



## Glenn7

Hmmm I just bought one too - just a heads up, I don't know if its a mistake or not but the XM-L2 U3 "WIDE" beam is $10 less, so I got me that one as I wanted wide anyway  get em while their hot!!


----------



## Knight_Light

Just so you guys know. The Armytek has a beautiful finish to it. However if you decide to use the pocket clip that finish will start to mar. The pocket clip is well designed and secures the headlamp very well (requiring considerable force to take on and off). The byproduct of that unfortunately is that it will mar the finish at the attachment point (this happens with most clip designs). I will be elaborating on this in the review. In the meantime you can see this visually in the current set of pictures in the review.


----------



## jonathanluu2

Nice Deal! I guess NW junkies will have to wait a bit for that tint to go on sale. I thought I was loyal to the NW tint but apparently this is not so! I couldnt wait with 4 brand new Kallie's Kustoms staring at me for the last week, waiting to be used  so i got the U2 version.


----------



## Dhobi

Armytek says that tint of Wizard Pro XM-L2 U3 is 6200K but Pro Wide XM-L2 U3 is 5500K. Do you think its possible? Or its just a mistake on the web page and both U3 have 6200K?


----------



## dragon191

If you look at the specs for the XM-L2 U2 it is listed as 5500K. I would say all the U2 bins are 5500K & U3 are 6200K.

Knight_Light: How do you find the tint of your review sample for hiking / bushwalking, camping? I think I'll wait for the NW versions to become available, but the wait is killing me.


----------



## Beacon of Light

CPF promo code not working


----------



## Knight_Light

dragon191 said:


> Knight_Light: How do you find the tint of your review sample for hiking / bushwalking, camping? I think I'll wait for the NW versions to become available, but the wait is killing me.


 
I personally love it. I have the Wizard Pro and Wizard Pro wide. Both of them are cool white but on the warmer side of cool. But then again I prefer cool white over the neutral white versions so I would take that with a grain of salt. Cool white with a high CRI is my favorite.

I posted some close-up pictures in the review to show the different colors and color contrast. See if you can find Waldo in the pictures. 

I will be posting the brighter levels soon.


----------



## Knight_Light

Outdoor beam shots updated to include night hiking, demonstrating all of the light levels. The 250 lm is my favorite for a night hiking on the trails. It gives a good balance of runtime and visual light level preference.


----------



## Glenn7

Knight_Light said:


> Outdoor beam shots updated to include night hiking, demonstrating all of the light levels. The 250 lm is my favorite for a night hiking on the trails. It gives a good balance of runtime and visual light level preference.


So for those hiking shots which lens wide or narrow?


----------



## Knight_Light

Glenn7 said:


> So for those hiking shots which lens wide or narrow?


 Those were taken with the Wizard Pro and a regular lens on the camera.


----------



## EsthetiX

Girryn said:


> What function does a sub .5 lumen low have for you? I have very sensitive night vision and find anything less than 1 lumen in a dispersed beam unusable even with dark adapted eyes. I am having trouble understanding what function such low lows serve other than satisfying an artificial need created by the cpf hivemind.
> Even with the more focused beam of my rotary the low modes are not very functional. The only time I use it is when I need light in the middle of the night and my light blocking curtains are still on from the night shift schedule. If the curtains are not on, the the starlight from the window outshines the lowest modes.



I have to agree with this. I have a zebra SC52 and the moon mode is useless for me. I just use low and that's fine. Another forum member exclaimed his enthusiasm for the 2 month run times you get out of those modes; I never really understood the hype about lights that can go to .01 lumens. Seriously, what do you use that for? I've never had any real world use for it in any situation.

If I owned a flashlight company I would definitely make lights that could do sub .5 lumen mode. I would do it because I'd be able to hype up my product and claim that it runs for two months!


----------



## EsthetiX

Beacon of Light said:


> One HUGE example is runtime. Have you ever checked out the runtime specs of a Zebralight? The H502 uses AA batteries mind you, but on the .06 lumen level you get 2 months of continuous light. 2 MONTHS!!!! The .01 lumen level is 3 MONTHS!!!!



I tend to use my sc52 on medium most of the time. Regardless of weather or not I used the 1 lumen mode over "low", I would still be recharging/replacing batteries with the same frequency. What environment/application do you use that for? And do you pretty much only use it in that mode? I am genuinely curious.


----------



## Glenn7

Knight_Light said:


> Those were taken with the Wizard Pro and a regular lens on the camera.


Sorry I wasn't clear - I didn't mean camera lens wide angle or zoom - I meant the optic on the Wizard, are the photos of your hike wide or narrow optics.


----------



## Beacon of Light

Truth be told, I rarely ever need anything more than the lower levels of the Zebralight. Heck on my Novatac light I have all of the modes spaced equally apart and the 4th mode is high and I think it is 2.7 lumens.



EsthetiX said:


> I tend to use my sc52 on medium most of the time. Regardless of weather or not I used the 1 lumen mode over "low", I would still be recharging/replacing batteries with the same frequency. What environment/application do you use that for? And do you pretty much only use it in that mode? I am genuinely curious.


----------



## Knight_Light

Glenn7 said:


> Sorry I wasn't clear - I didn't mean camera lens wide angle or zoom - I meant the optic on the Wizard, are the photos of your hike wide or narrow optics.


 It was done with the "Armytek Wizard Pro XM-L2" not the "Armytek Wizard Pro Wide XM-L2".


----------



## Knight_Light

Beacon of Light said:


> Truth be told, I rarely ever need anything more than the lower levels of the Zebralight. Heck on my Novatac light I have all of the modes spaced equally apart and the 4th mode is high and I think it is 2.7 lumens.


 Maybe there would be less confusion if you could describe some of the tasks that you perform utilizing these levels. I can understand reading a book up close, but it would not make any sense to me if you said you were night hiking on trails with sublumen levels.


----------



## Lou Minescence

I see 2 versions available @ HK equip.
A 40 and 70mm version. I haven't been following this thread closely enough to know the difference between the 2. I'm waiting for a warm version.


----------



## Glenn7

Knight_Light said:


> It was done with the "Armytek Wizard Pro XM-L2" not the "Armytek Wizard Pro Wide XM-L2".


Cool thanks mate! But you know you have to post one with wide


----------



## Knight_Light

Glenn7 said:


> Cool thanks mate! But you know you have to post one with wide


 Trust me when I tell you there is no difference between the 2 in an outdoor environment. The only time you will notice a difference is when you are looking at a white wall from 1 m away. The wide version as compared to the regular version just looks less bright at its respective light level. The beam and everything else are almost identical


----------



## dragon191

Knight_Light said:


> Trust me when I tell you there is no difference between the 2 in an outdoor environment. The only time you will notice a difference is when you are looking at a white wall from 1 m away. The wide version as compared to the regular version just looks less bright at its respective light level. The beam and everything else are almost identical



Wouldn't the standard non-wide version have an advantage in the outdoors for route finding, etc due to the extra throw (70m vs 50m for the wide)?


----------



## Knight_Light

dragon191 said:


> Wouldn't the standard non-wide version have an advantage in the outdoors for route finding, etc due to the extra throw (70m vs 50m for the wide)?


The question that you ask is one of preference. For me personally having the ability to have a lot of lux onto a target within 100 feet is what really helps in route finding once the route is found I go to a lower level. 

Having said that how much throw do you need in a forest environment where the route or the trail is a winding one, with in 50 m in most cases is more then adequate. Now to answer your question specifically. In my opinion the standard wizard is a lot better for the outdoors then the wide version.


----------



## Glenn7

I knew the wide would throw less but give more peripheral vision, great for up close work - I would use it in conjunction with a thrower when hiking/patrolling I was just trying to agitate which light was in the shots.
Thanks for all your work on this light - You have to take some of the blame for me having to buy one.........


----------



## Knight_Light

Glenn7 said:


> I knew the wide would throw less but give more peripheral vision, great for up close work - I would use it in conjunction with a thrower when hiking/patrolling I was just trying to agitate which light was in the shots.
> Thanks for all your work on this light - You have to take some of the blame for me having to buy one.........


 
You are welcome. I will only take the blame if there is no financial repercussions associated with it (to me). 

As far as the 2 lights are concerned the point I was trying to get across is that they are fairly indistinguishable when it comes to how floody the beam is in the outdoor environment. But at the same respective light levels the regular is brighter than the wide. For this reason the regular version is my favorite hands-down.


----------



## EsthetiX

This seems like an awesome light. Why wouldn't there be more people talking about it? Look how busy the most recent SC52 thread for example (just for a new tint)?


----------



## EsthetiX

I've never been a fan of 2 straps over the head. Can you get away with just using the one (head band) or is the light a little heavy for that; making it awkward and slip when jogging?


----------



## Glenn7

I don't think I'd use a head band at all just the clip - technically the wide angle should illuminate 90% of my front facing vision - and I won't have a bad hair day or hour glass shaped head after I take the head band off :naughty:


----------



## EsthetiX

yah, most stuff I wouldnt use the head band but for jogging it's waaay better than trying to hold the light study in your hand.


----------



## Knight_Light

EsthetiX said:


> This seems like an awesome light. Why wouldn't there be more people talking about it? Look how busy the most recent SC52 thread for example (just for a new tint)?


 Headlamps are simply not as popular as flashlights. People that are just getting into the hobby would very seldom consider a headlamp over a flashlight. I started this particular discussion a little while back and even that died out. lol You can see that thread here http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb...lashlights-Headlamps-EDC-and-Emergency-Lights.


----------



## Knight_Light

EsthetiX said:


> I've never been a fan of 2 straps over the head. Can you get away with just using the one (head band) or is the light a little heavy for that; making it awkward and slip when jogging?


 For the most part the headband is fairly well designed. The top band is removable and not necessary for operation. I have not tried jogging with the top band removed (simply because it never occurred to me) but I believe it would be possible as the elastic is strong enough and the rubber part that holds the headlamp rests fairly secure against the head.


----------



## Knight_Light

Glenn7 said:


> I don't think I'd use a head band at all just the clip - technically the wide angle should illuminate 90% of my front facing vision - and I won't have a bad hair day or hour glass shaped head after I take the head band off :naughty:


 You could not jog with the pocket clip but I have hiked with the pocket clip attaching the headlamp to the shoulder strap of my backpack just above the sternum strap (to prevent it from sliding down) and it worked out reasonably well. Depending on how you position the headlamp you can get a little bit of glare into your eyes.


----------



## Knight_Light

Runtime on the 30 lm (Mode 1) has now been CONFIRMED at 37h and 29m with an unprotected 3400 mAh Panasonic battery (NCR18650B). :thumbsup:


----------



## Cereal_Killer

Knight_Light said:


> The TIR optic itself is made from high quality acrylic glass. It is then protected by tempered glass which has an AR coating on it.
> 
> Personal preferences one can’t really dispute. But if I may give you a recommendation, give them a second chance. Not only can it be more effective then a reflector but you have a lot of flexibility to create different beam scenarios. You could have a spill as tight as 5° or as wide as 120° for example.



Its reassuring to hear there is an actual piece or tempered glass in front of the TIR. Im still up in the air for a 18650 headlamp between the armytek and the zebralight and I'm in no hurry so I will still consider it. My 100% custom built light (I literally machined it out of a bar of aluminum) uses a TIR and I have several different lenses so I'm well aware of the benefit of being able to choose your beam profile to meet a specific need.

Will the choice of optic be a one time thing (when you order the light) or will you be able to swap them somehow, either just the lens or the whole head or anything? That would be the best application of an adjustible beam profile light I've ever seen, I would consider that so much better than a "zoom" function (where an aspheric lense's focus is changed by twisting the head), I don't mind an aspheric lens, but only when perfectly focused for maximum throw, I hate the zoom "feature". [again just personal preference, I know a lot of people love it]


----------



## Knight_Light

Cereal_Killer said:


> Its reassuring to hear there is an actual piece or tempered glass in front of the TIR. Im still up in the air for a 18650 headlamp between the armytek and the zebralight and I'm in no hurry so I will still consider it.


I have both the Armytek and the zebra light. Both are great headlamps. If some of the performance advantages that the Armytek has over the zebra light are not important to you then it’s a matter of which one you like aesthetically better and which UI do you prefer. For me a lot of my decisions are performance driven. The efficiency of the Armytek, especially in the higher modes is very important to the way that I utilize headlamps so that is my primary criteria.

The TIR optic itself on the regular wizard is really the perfect combination of flood and spot and will be a pleasure to use for most tasks. It especially excels in the outdoor environment. 



Cereal_Killer said:


> Will the choice of optic be a one time thing (when you order the light) or will you be able to swap them somehow, either just the lens or the whole head or anything? That would be the best application of an adjustible beam profile light I've ever seen, I would consider that so much better than a "zoom" function (where an aspheric lense's focus is changed by twisting the head), I don't mind an aspheric lens, but only when perfectly focused for maximum throw, I hate the zoom "feature". [again just personal preference, I know a lot of people love it]


 On the Armytek the optic is set and you will not be able to swap. Since it is press fit most people will have a hard time gaining access to it. The Spark headlamps allow you to swap lenses, and in my opinion have the best system for doing so. They also have probably the best pure flood beam out of all the products in this particular price range (SD series).


----------



## bradthebold

How would you say the beam compares to an H600 and H600f? I would guess the color is between the ZL cool and neutral white, but how floody is it compared to the normal and f versions of the H600? I want it for an all purpose use and wouldn't want it to be too spotty.

Is it ok to use unprotected cells with this light, does it have it's own protection? Is it ok to charge unprotected cells with the cheap charger they have for free (HKJ says the charger is slow and doesn't followed the recommended charging pattern, but it stops at 4.2V)? I was set on protected cells, but now they're including an unprotected one for free. That doesn't really matter if it's not safe though.

Otherwise it seems to have a better build quality, better warranty, longer runtimes, and higher output than the H600. I'm not sure how important a <0.5lm setting is either, some people made it seem like it's the most important feature of a light, haha.


----------



## Knight_Light

bradthebold said:


> How would you say the beam compares to an H600 and H600f? I would guess the color is between the ZL cool and neutral white, but how floody is it compared to the normal and f versions of the H600? I want it for an all purpose use and wouldn't want it to be too spotty.


I would say the beam is somewhere between H600 and H600f. It is definitely not to spotty while providing a good amount of flood. It really is an all-purpose headlamp. My recommendation is get yourself the regular Wizard Pro not the wide.



bradthebold said:


> Is it ok to use unprotected cells with this light, does it have it's own protection? Is it ok to charge unprotected cells with the cheap charger they have for free (HKJ says the charger is slow and doesn't followed the recommended charging pattern, but it stops at 4.2V)? I was set on protected cells, but now they're including an unprotected one for free. That doesn't really matter if it's not safe though.


 
I use only unprotected cells in this particular headlamp. It has built-in protection but you have to activate it and tell it what type of battery you are using (protected versus unprotected) and then you are all set (the manual explains how to do that). It also has a voltage indicator to tell you when it’s time to swap out batteries. 

The battery they include is a great battery (it’s the one I use for my runtime tests) you can buy them from FastTech if you need more (FASTTECH SKU 1141105) pretty inexpensively. The charger in my opinion is so-so at best but it does work, if you have a DMM you can manually track to charge. Personally I would keep that charger as a backup and get yourself a new charger.


----------



## toysareforboys

bradthebold said:


> Is it ok to use unprotected cells with this light, does it have it's own protection?


Yep



bradthebold said:


> Is it ok to charge ANY cells with the cheap charger they have for free?


No. Don't use crappy chargers, to charge any batteries. If the batteries are protected or not makes no difference when charging.

Pick up a good true CC/CV high current charger from cottonpickers: http://www.cpfmarketplace.com/mp/sh...l-Worlds-smallest-Li-ion-charger-with-display

Charges em flawless and FAST (1.2amps): Add to Cart: High current 500ma/1200ma Black Rightie - $49

-Jamie M.


----------



## Knight_Light

bradthebold said:


> I'm not sure how important a <0.5lm setting is either, some people made it seem like it's the most important feature of a light, haha.


 I didn't see this part you must have edited after I posted. You don't really need to go any lower in my opinion (but it might be nice to have the option for some people). Sublumen levels are awesome but they are also overhyped to a point. If you wake up after sleeping for 4 hours to go to the kitchen the .5 lm will be fairly bright (especially if you have white walls and white flooring) however after the same 4 hours of sleep in an outdoor environment not so bright. I also like to use them as a Beacon so that I can find my headlamp in my backpack or should I drop it by accident or as a night light. There are really a lot of useful ideas for this level of light.


----------



## Knight_Light

toysareforboys said:


> Pick up a good true CC/CV high current charger from cottonpickers: http://www.cpfmarketplace.com/mp/sh...l-Worlds-smallest-Li-ion-charger-with-display
> 
> Charges em flawless and FAST (1.2amps): Add to Cart: High current 500ma/1200ma Black Rightie - $49
> 
> -Jamie M.


 Personally if I was going to spend that kind of money I would get the Xtar VP1 or the Xtar SP2 if I had a need to fast charge (not a bad idea if you are in a rush).


----------



## toysareforboys

Knight_Light said:


> Personally if I was going to spend that kind of money I would get the Xtar VP1 or the Xtar SP2 if I had a need to fast charge (not a bad idea if you are in a rush).


Can either of them do over 1amp?

EDIT: I see the SP2 can do 2amps, nice. No live display though, boo. If only the SP2 could do two channels at 2amps each, I'll be all over that like fly on poo! 

EDIT again: I'll be damned! It IS 2amps per channel! I've been looking for a true dual 2amp charger forever! Checking price... $35, not bad! Ordered, should get it in a month or so... 

-Jamie M.


----------



## Knight_Light

toysareforboys said:


> Can either of them do over 1amp?
> 
> -Jamie M.


 SP2 can go up to 2 A


----------



## Knight_Light

toysareforboys said:


> EDIT: I see the SP2 can do 2amps, nice. No live display though, boo. If only the SP2 could do two channels at 2amps each, I'll be all over that like fly on poo!
> 
> EDIT again: I'll be damned! It IS 2amps per channel! I've been looking for a true dual 2amp charger forever! Checking price...
> 
> -Jamie M.


 If you really are looking to be able to charge even higher I would recommend you get a hobby charger. You can charge at 1C all day long.


----------



## toysareforboys

Knight_Light said:


> If you really are looking to be able to charge even higher I would recommend you get a hobby charger. You can charge at 1C all day long.


2 amps is about the max I'd like to feed my 3400 panny's on a regular basis 

-Jamie M.


----------



## bradthebold

Ok, I've decided on the regular Wizard then. Since the promo code doesn't work on the U2 version, the U3 version is only $2 more and doesn't come with the 3100mah battery. Is the U3 version worth more than the U2 version plus the battery?

The batteries on Fasttech are so cheap compared to everything I've seen (and come in pairs), that I probably wouldn't miss the free battery if the U3 version is worth it.

So the batteries I would get are the Panasonic NCR18650B 3400mah unprotected flat-top cells. Does that sound good?

Also, I have read a lot about chargers, but it's been hard to choose as well. I think I've narrowed it down to the Xtar VP1 or the Intellicharger i4. I'm not concerned about speed or anything except being safe and cell longevity. The VP1 seems good, but it costs twice as much as the Intellicharger. HKJ said the i4 uses a CC/CV algorithm, but pretty much everything else I've read says it doesn't, but it does a good enough job. Is the i4 good, should I get something else in the $20-30 range, or should I just get a VP1?


----------



## toysareforboys

bradthebold said:


> So the batteries I would get are the Panasonic NCR18650B 3400mah unprotected flat-top cells. Does that sound good?


Best batteries on earth, unless you wanna use 4.35v ones.



bradthebold said:


> Is the i4 good, should I get something else in the $20-30 range, or should I just get a VP1?


I've read mixed reviews on the i4, including out of spec termination voltages. If you don't need the fastest charger on earth why not get the $19 *SHIPPED* 700ma cottonpickers charger? True CC/CV, works amazing. Add to Cart: 700ma Basic Charger in *BLUE* - $19

-Jamie M.


----------



## Knight_Light

bradthebold said:


> Ok, I've decided on the regular Wizard then. Since the promo code doesn't work on the U2 version, the U3 version is only $2 more and doesn't come with the 3100mah battery. Is the U3 version worth more than the U2 version plus the battery?
> 
> The batteries on Fasttech are so cheap compared to everything I've seen (and come in pairs), that I probably wouldn't miss the free battery if the U3 version is worth it.


 I have not played with the U3 version so I cannot speak from experience. Visually you will not be able to tell the brightness levels apart. So unless you need some sort of bragging rights I would stick with the U2. It’s a great battery that you get with that deal and you have a backup charger just in case.



bradthebold said:


> So the batteries I would get are the Panasonic NCR18650B 3400mah unprotected flat-top cells. Does that sound good?


 They are great batteries but I would get the Panasonic NCR18650A 3100mah because to me it represents a better value not because they are better batteries. If you read the 2nd​ part of my review I explained why I make that recommendation. But either one of them will work and are great batteries.



bradthebold said:


> Also, I have read a lot about chargers, but it's been hard to choose as well. I think I've narrowed it down to the Xtar VP1 or the Intellicharger i4. I'm not concerned about speed or anything except being safe and cell longevity. The VP1 seems good, but it costs twice as much as the Intellicharger. HKJ said the i4 uses a CC/CV algorithm, but pretty much everything else I've read says it doesn't, but it does a good enough job. Is the i4 good, should I get something else in the $20-30 range, or should I just get a VP1?


 
If you’ve narrowed it down to those 2 I would hands-down pick the VP1. Now let me comment on some of the points that you made. You say you are not concerned about speed and that you want to be safe. Here is my thought on this, since lithium ions should not be charged unsupervised having a faster charger that you can actually watch is better then having a slow charger that you leave unattended because you don’t have the time to watch it. Plus don’t forget that high-speed charger has lower settings so you can use them when you do have the time to just hang around. And unless you are discharging and charging daily I wouldn’t be too concerned about cell longevity. Think about it. If you get 300 charge discharge cycles and you charge every 4th​ day that is like 3 ½ years worth of service.


----------



## Knight_Light

toysareforboys said:


> Best batteries on earth, unless you wanna use 4.35v ones.


 It’s still the best battery on earth the 4.35 V is not quite there yet.



toysareforboys said:


> If you don't need the fastest charger on earth why not get the $19 SHIPPED 700ma cottonpickers charger? True CC/CV, works amazing. Add to Cart: 700ma Basic Charger in BLUE - $19
> 
> -Jamie M.


 Says the guy that just bought a fast charger. lol But all kidding aside cottonpickers makes some good products.


----------



## bradthebold

Knight_Light said:


> I have not played with the U3 version so I cannot speak from experience. Visually you will not be able to tell the brightness levels apart. So unless you need some sort of bragging rights I would stick with the U2. It’s a great battery that you get with that deal and you have a backup charger just in case.
> 
> They are great batteries but I would get the Panasonic NCR18650A 3100mah because to me it represents a better value not because they are better batteries. If you read the 2nd​ part of my review I explained why I make that recommendation. But either one of them will work and are great batteries.
> 
> 
> 
> If you’ve narrowed it down to those 2 I would hands-down pick the VP1. Now let me comment on some of the points that you made. You say you are not concerned about speed and that you want to be safe. Here is my thought on this, since lithium ions should not be charged unsupervised having a faster charger that you can actually watch is better then having a slow charger that you leave unattended because you don’t have the time to watch it. Plus don’t forget that high-speed charger has lower settings so you can use them when you do have the time to just hang around. And unless you are discharging and charging daily I wouldn’t be too concerned about cell longevity. Think about it. If you get 300 charge discharge cycles and you charge every 4th​ day that is like 3 ½ years worth of service.



I forgot I wanted the U2 for the lower color temp anyways, so I'll be getting that one.

I hadn't read the first posts in a while, but it looks like the battery prices have changed a little bit too. The 3400 is only 16% more expensive right now, which is only $2.05 per pair. I only plan on buying one pair and it will last for years, so I figure for $2 I might as well get the extra 7-8% life every charge. It also seems insignificantly more because I was prepared to spend ~$20 per battery before you showed me fasttech.

Should I buy protected cells for the new pair I get though? Are there any disadvantages besides being longer? If I pick up another light that doesn't have built in protection, then I would be nervous. Or do pretty much all new lights come with built in protection now? Charging protected cells seems safer as well. I would just be worried they'd be too long for some lights, like the Zebralights, in case I get an H602 in the future.

I have no preferences for a charger, that is just what I had noticed from reading. For $50, it seems like there are good options, I was just wondering if there was anything cheaper that would work properly/safely as well. $50 seems like a lot for a charger that will only occasionally charge only 1 flashlights batteries. 

The cottonpickers charger doesn't seem that good, even according to him. I think I read somewhere in that thread that he said the cheap chinese version is not as accurate, which is why he uses the american parts in the more expensive versions. Being USB seems like it would limit its functionality too, and could limit charging to 500ma on USB2 devices.


----------



## Knight_Light

bradthebold said:


> Should I buy protected cells for the new pair I get though? Are there any disadvantages besides being longer? If I pick up another light that doesn't have built in protection, then I would be nervous. Or do pretty much all new lights come with built in protection now? Charging protected cells seems safer as well. I would just be worried they'd be too long for some lights, like the Zebralights, in case I get an H602 in the future.


Most lights do not have built-in protection such as the Armytek so you would definitely need to get protected batteries for those applications. However these batteries are so good and so cheap I would just get the unprotected until you have a need for protected.



bradthebold said:


> I have no preferences for a charger, that is just what I had noticed from reading. For $50, it seems like there are good options, I was just wondering if there was anything cheaper that would work properly/safely as well. $50 seems like a lot for a charger that will only occasionally charge only 1 flashlights batteries.


 You can get the Xtar SP2 it is about $15 cheaper but does not have the digital voltage display which is useful. But it does have the 2 amp charge capability which is awesome to have.




bradthebold said:


> The cottonpickers charger doesn't seem that good, even according to him. I think I read somewhere in that thread that he said the cheap chinese version is not as accurate, which is why he uses the american parts in the more expensive versions. Being USB seems like it would limit its functionality too, and could limit charging to 500ma on USB2 devices.


 They are good chargers. You can get a dedicated USB socket that would allow higher charge rates. It would cost you about $7.


----------



## bradthebold

Ok, I think I am figuring things out. Zebralight has built in protection too, so there is no reason to get protected cells that might be too long? The lights will prevent over discharge and a good charger will prevent over charge.

Can a good charger charge cells under 3V? They claim to have a soft start with ~10% current until they hit 2.9V. So even an over-discharged cell can be charged normally with these? How do you know when it's time replace a cell?

I have an extra 700ma usb wall charger, so I think I'll get the cottonpickers one since it's only $17. One thing I'm confused about is that these hit 4.2V but then switch the charging method and still have to charge for a while longer? How would you know when it's done besides trusting the charger? Do you check the voltage multiple times while it's charging, or do you just check to make sure it's good once the charger says it's done?

Also, if the batteries aren't getting depleted frequently, should you just top the charge off every month or two or just wait until the Armytek says it's dead? Let me know if this is too far off topic and I'll move it. I have read a lot of different opinions and it seems like opinions change as technology changes, so it's hard to figure it all out and there doesn't seem to be a FAQ I could find in the battery section.


----------



## Knight_Light

bradthebold said:


> Can a good charger charge cells under 3V? They claim to have a soft start with ~10% current until they hit 2.9V. So even an over-discharged cell can be charged normally with these? How do you know when it's time replace a cell?


 That best way is to know the internal resistance of the battery and then keep track of that. But if you don’t have the equipment to do that the best way is to keep accurate records of when you bought the battery and how many times you charge and discharge it. You can also do runtime tests on the higher levels when you buy the batteries so you have a baseline and when those runtimes decrease by about 20% you can start replacing cells.




bradthebold said:


> I have an extra 700ma usb wall charger, so I think I'll get the cottonpickers one since it's only $17. One thing I'm confused about is that these hit 4.2V but then switch the charging method and still have to charge for a while longer? How would you know when it's done besides trusting the charger? Do you check the voltage multiple times while it's charging, or do you just check to make sure it's good once the charger says it's done?


 I would recommend getting one of his more higher-end chargers as it will give you more flexibility in the future. That is if you do not want to take the other suggestions that I gave. Having a digital voltage readout really is a plus and you will benefit from that. It takes a lot longer to charge a battery to 100% then to 90%. There are numerous threads on this on the forum so you can read up on why without me repeating it. You can only trust the charger if you can verify the charger when you get it. I will always check my batteries after they come off the charger and have given them about 90 minutes rest time before checking. If you want your batteries to last longer and have a much shorter charge time you can pull them when they read 4.18V instead of waiting for 4.2V. I personally do not get so crazy with all of this stuff especially since batteries are pretty cheap. I just keep good track of how many cycles they have on them and check the internal resistance periodically.



bradthebold said:


> Also, if the batteries aren't getting depleted frequently, should you just top the charge off every month or two or just wait until the Armytek says it's dead? Let me know if this is too far off topic and I'll move it. I have read a lot of different opinions and it seems like opinions change as technology changes, so it's hard to figure it all out and there doesn't seem to be a FAQ I could find in the battery section.


 I would top off my batteries just so that I always have juice when I needed it. Ideally you want to keep the battery between 40 and 80% but then again with batteries being so cheap to me it really doesn’t make that much of a difference. 

I think you are honestly worrying about a lot of the wrong stuff. You should really just invest in a good charger. Supervise your charging cycles and enjoy your devices. If they don’t start to give you the runtimes you’re used to just get new batteries. It’s really that simple.


----------



## bradthebold

Knight_Light said:


> I think you are honestly worrying about a lot of the wrong stuff. You should really just invest in a good charger. Supervise your charging cycles and enjoy your devices. If they don’t start to give you the runtimes you’re used to just get new batteries. It’s really that simple.



I was going to get the VP1, despite the fact it won't get a ton of use, but you and toysareforboys said the cottonpickers one does everything I could want for >$30 less. If I have a multimeter to check the batteries after charging, there would be no need for a more expensive charger would there? The higher level cottonpicker would cost more than a VP1 including getting a 2amp wall charger.

This is why I asked about when the charging would be done: 
*"Is the cell fully charged when the display shows 4.2v? No, the charging algorithm means you'll see 4.2v or 4.21v on the display for quite some time before the cell is fully charged."

*If it quickly charged to 4.1V and took a while to get to 4.2V, that would make sense. But based on cottonpickers answer, there is no way to tell when it's full charged based on just the voltage.

So based on the fact that I don't think I'll need fast or multiple charging and have a DMM, is the VP1 worth $33 more than the cottonpicker's basic charger? If the cottonpickers is somehow inadequate for safe or reliable charging, then I would be glad to get the VP1, otherwise I'd rather save the $30.

The reason I'm worrying is because of the battery failure threads. Having a light literally blow up in your hand or on your head is unnerving.


----------



## Knight_Light

bradthebold said:


> I was going to get the VP1, despite the fact it won't get a ton of use, but you and toysareforboys said the cottonpickers one does everything I could want for >$30 less. If I have a multimeter to check the batteries after charging, there would be no need for a more expensive charger would there? The higher level cottonpicker would cost more than a VP1 including getting a 2amp wall charger.
> 
> This is why I asked about when the charging would be done:
> "Is the cell fully charged when the display shows 4.2v? No, the charging algorithm means you'll see 4.2v or 4.21v on the display for quite some time before the cell is fully charged."
> 
> If it quickly charged to 4.1V and took a while to get to 4.2V, that would make sense. But based on cottonpickers answer, there is no way to tell when it's full charged based on just the voltage.
> 
> So based on the fact that I don't think I'll need fast or multiple charging and have a DMM, is the VP1 worth $33 more than the cottonpicker's basic charger? If the cottonpickers is somehow inadequate for safe or reliable charging, then I would be glad to get the VP1, otherwise I'd rather save the $30.
> 
> The reason I'm worrying is because of the battery failure threads. Having a light literally blow up in your hand or on your head is unnerving.


The VP1 will tell you when the battery is done and it will come off every time around 4.18 V. not to mention it has a digital readout which I am telling you, you will appreciate with time. Me personally I would not get the lower end cottonpicker's. If you don’t want to spend the $50 get yourself a SP2 that one you can get for $32.


----------



## Trevtrain

bradthebold said:


> I was going to get the VP1, despite the fact it won't get a ton of use, but you and toysareforboys said the cottonpickers one does everything I could want for >$30 less. If I have a multimeter to check the batteries after charging, there would be no need for a more expensive charger would there? The higher level cottonpicker would cost more than a VP1 including getting a 2amp wall charger.
> 
> This is why I asked about when the charging would be done:
> *"Is the cell fully charged when the display shows 4.2v? No, the charging algorithm means you'll see 4.2v or 4.21v on the display for quite some time before the cell is fully charged."
> 
> *If it quickly charged to 4.1V and took a while to get to 4.2V, that would make sense. But based on cottonpickers answer, there is no way to tell when it's full charged based on just the voltage.
> 
> So based on the fact that I don't think I'll need fast or multiple charging and have a DMM, is the VP1 worth $33 more than the cottonpicker's basic charger? If the cottonpickers is somehow inadequate for safe or reliable charging, then I would be glad to get the VP1, otherwise I'd rather save the $30.
> 
> The reason I'm worrying is because of the battery failure threads. Having a light literally blow up in your hand or on your head is unnerving.



If I could chime in here.... :wave:

Just some random comments based on my reading of the previous few posts.



I have several of the Cottonpickers USB chargers and they are good units but keep in mind they have NO REVERSE POLARITY PROTECTION. I bought the versions with the upgraded chips for more accurate voltage control. I rarely use my laptop or PC to charge as I have many wall-wart PSUs from various devices so the 500mA USB2 limitation is not a problem. 
His basic charger @700mA is probably all you need given that you already have a DMM. 
Cottonpickers also offers a range of solar panels with USB output if camping or off-grid interests you. His chargers are designed to mate with these systems and they work well. 
If you think you might later get involved with 16340s or 14500s, I'd suggest perhaps getting one of his multi-level charges with LED readout simply so you can choose several current outputs. ie. maybe a 90/300/700mA version to cover everything from 10440 to 18650. 
It is true that you can't tell exactly when the cell is fully charged based on voltage since the algorithm used is CC/CV and the voltage needs to be held at 4.20 for some time (at a low current) to fully "soak" the cell. But unless you are concerned about getting every last joule into the cell, I personally don't think it is critical to do this. If the cell comes off the charger at greater than 4.10V, then it is more than 90% done anyway - especially if you are talking about the NCR Panasonics. 
Li-Ion cells do deteriorate in storage and this is greatly increased if you combine high temperatures (>30C or 86F) with high states of charge. 40% charge is considered ideal for long-term storage. There have been many threads on this topic. BatteryUniversity.com is a great source of information if you want more detail. 
On the other hand, Li-Ion cells will give a longer service life if "topped up" regularly rather than drawn down to the cutoff voltage each time. ie. Don't wait until your light tells you your cell is empty. 
The above two points are probably worth considering for (an expensive) laptop battery pack, but as Knight_Light says, loose 18650s are relatively cheap these days so maybe you don't need to get too worked up about it all. Just use the cells and enjoy your lights. 
You can get a rough idea of the health of your cells by measuring the voltage drop after charging. If a cell comes off the charger at 4.20V and is left resting for a couple of hours, then measures 4.17-4.18V it is probably quite good. If it drops lower or keeps dropping to say 4.10V after 24 hours, it is probably due for replacement. 
It is wise to be cautious with Li-Ion cells as they do have the potential "literally blow up" as you say - "vent with flame" is the correct term apparently. However, delve a little deeper into the threads describing these incidents and you'll mostly find factors such as 
[*=2]Cheap cr*pfire cells 
[*=2]Cheap chargers with poor termination 
[*=2]Unprotected cells 
[*=2]Cells with poor quality or even fake protection circuits 
[*=2]Cells of mismatched capacity or charge state used in serial configuration in multi-cell lights 
[*=2]Lights with no low-voltage shutoff 
[*=2]Cells abused by high-current discharge 
[*=2]Cells abused by being left in extremely low voltage states for extended periods and then re-used. (Some laptop pulls for instance) 
[*=2]Cells overheated 

To get back on topic regarding the Armytek Wizard, my 2c would be to say get the protected Panasonics for maximum safety and compatibility with other lights. Given Armytek's reputation for quality, I'd be surprised to hear of any systemic fault with one of their lights that would cause it to become dangerous.


----------



## Trevtrain

Knight_Light said:


> The VP1 will tell you when the battery is done and it will come off every time around 4.18 V. not to mention it has a digital readout which I am telling you, you will appreciate with time. Me personally I would not get the lower end cottonpicker's. If you don’t want to spend the $50 get yourself a SP2 that one you can get for $32.



I don't know much about the VP1 but I agree with the comments about the digital readout. It is nice to have as you can see at a glance just how your cell is progressing without having to pull it to check with your DMM. My recommendation for the basic charger is simply based on price if Brad is concerned with outlay. The basic charger also suits my use with solar panels as there is no parastic drain during or after charging.


----------



## bradthebold

Trevtrain said:


> I don't know much about the VP1 but I agree with the comments about the digital readout. It is nice to have as you can see at a glance just how your cell is progressing without having to pull it to check with your DMM. My recommendation for the basic charger is simply based on price if Brad is concerned with outlay. The basic charger also suits my use with solar panels as there is no parastic drain during or after charging.


Thanks for all the tips. I think I'll just try a cottonpickers one first because it is so cheap. I'd be lucky to use it once a month I think with the Armytek's runtimes on lower settings, so I don't think it would be that inconvenient and I don't think I would be using any other battery types soon. If something happens to be wrong with it, which I'm not foreseeing, or I feel the need to upgrade, then I could get an VP1 and be down $17 compared to just spending and extra $33 for initially for the VP1. Who knows though, I may change my mind back again.

Batteries are confusing too. Here's current prices I can find at least:
Unprotected Panasonic 3100 - $12.74/pair
Unprotected Panasonic 2400 - $14.79/pr
Protected Eagletac 3100 - $32/pr on ebay
Protected Eagletac 3400 - $36/pr on ebay

The protected ones are more than twice as expensive, and from what I've read, those look like the shortest protected cells (68mm) that would cause the least amount of issues with other lights. Button top vs flat top looks like another issue now too. Flat top cells won't work with the Eagletac D25LC2, for example. Does it matter for the armytek which type to use? I know Knight_Light recommenced the flat top ones earlier and it looks like the free one armytek gives you is a flat top one too. Is one type more likely to work with more lights?

Should I buy protected cells for the Armytek, or is the built in protection of the light and protection of the charger safe enough? Is it unwise to use unprotected cells with unprotected lights even if you stop and charge the battery when the light starts to dim? Even if you do over discharge the lights to 2.5V for example, is the soft charging of these chargers enough to save them?

I might just get a pair of cheap unprotected Panasonics now, and if I end up getting a cheap int'l outdoors or shiningbeam light or something else unprotected (like an Eagletac), I'll get a pair of the expensive protected ones.

One other question I had about this light was the temperatures it reaches and the effect on the battery. From what I've seen, it looks like the top operating temperature of the batteries is 60C (140F), but the light can get up to 160-180F. Will high mode cause any issues? Is using turbo above 140F dangerous? Knight_Light's test made it over an hours above the battery's operating temp, but that seems kind of scary. I don't really plan on using turbo for an hour as it's too hot to handle, but it would still be nice to know it's dangerous if I did for some reason.

Thanks for all the help.


----------



## Knight_Light

bradthebold said:


> Batteries are confusing too. Here's current prices I can find at least:
> Unprotected Panasonic 3100 - $12.74/pair
> Unprotected Panasonic 2400 - $14.79/pr
> Protected Eagletac 3100 - $32/pr on ebay
> Protected Eagletac 3400 - $36/pr on ebay
> 
> The protected ones are more than twice as expensive, and from what I've read, those look like the shortest protected cells (68mm) that would cause the least amount of issues with other lights. Button top vs flat top looks like another issue now too. Flat top cells won't work with the Eagletac D25LC2, for example. Does it matter for the armytek which type to use? I know Knight_Light recommenced the flat top ones earlier and it looks like the free one armytek gives you is a flat top one too. Is one type more likely to work with more lights?
> 
> Should I buy protected cells for the Armytek, or is the built in protection of the light and protection of the charger safe enough? Is it unwise to use unprotected cells with unprotected lights even if you stop and charge the battery when the light starts to dim? Even if you do over discharge the lights to 2.5V for example, is the soft charging of these chargers enough to save them?
> 
> I might just get a pair of cheap unprotected Panasonics now, and if I end up getting a cheap int'l outdoors or shiningbeam light or something else unprotected (like an Eagletac), I'll get a pair of the expensive protected ones.
> 
> One other question I had about this light was the temperatures it reaches and the effect on the battery. From what I've seen, it looks like the top operating temperature of the batteries is 60C (140F), but the light can get up to 160-180F. Will high mode cause any issues? Is using turbo above 140F dangerous? Knight_Light's test made it over an hours above the battery's operating temp, but that seems kind of scary. I don't really plan on using turbo for an hour as it's too hot to handle, but it would still be nice to know it's dangerous if I did for some reason.
> 
> Thanks for all the help.




You can use whatever battery you want in the Armytek it will not make a difference if it is a flattop or not, protected or not.
You can get these batteries and save yourself some grief. “Panasonic NCR18650A 18650 3100mAh 3.7V Protected Rechargeable Li-ion Batteries (2-Pack)” FASTTECH SKU 1315402 $17.08 for 2
A button top will work in more lights. But a lot of lights function with flat tops.
Discard Li-ion if the voltage has stayed below 2.00/V/cell for more than a week.
If you discharge below 2.5 V repeatedly it doesn’t matter if the charger will charge them you will be considerably diminishing your lifecycle of the battery with repeated bouts of 2.5 V and below.
During the runtime test for Turbo the battery never went over 60°C.
Anytime you heat anything associated with lithium ion you create an increased risk. It is impractical to run this headlamp for such prolonged time frames on Turbo but if I had to do it I would feel personally comfortable doing it, provided I didn’t have to hold in my hand or put it on my forehead. 
 
I understand you are eager and anxious about your purchases. You keep going back and forth. I think your best bet is to continue this on the “Flashlight Electronics - Batteries Included” as you will get a lot more responses then just me, it will give you much more well-rounded answer. I can answer specific questions relating to the wizard because I have access to one but some of the other lights others will be better suited to answer.


----------



## offtrail

Knight Light,


Thank you for your fascinating, ongoing posts. 

Couple of quick questions regarding the ArmyTek Wizard Pro:
1) Unless I overlooked this fact in the early parts of the thread, it seems the headlamp does not recall the battery type (protected vs. non-protected) when you change batteries, requiring reprogramming each instance you do so. It would simplify matters if this feature could be incorporated into a near-future model update.
2) Is the headlamp for sale, currently? If so, by whom?


Offtrail


Edit: After poking around CPF, I noticed the ArmyTek rep's statement that the Wizard Pro is indeed for sale on their website.


----------



## Sukram

offtrail said:


> Knight Light,
> 
> 
> Thank you for your fascinating, ongoing posts.
> 
> Couple of quick questions regarding the ArmyTek Wizard Pro:
> 1) Unless I overlooked this fact in the early parts of the thread, it seems the headlamp does not recall the battery type (protected vs. non-protected) when you change batteries, requiring reprogramming each instance you do so. It would simplify matters if this feature could be incorporated into a near-future model update.
> 2) Is the headlamp for sale, currently? If so, by whom?
> 
> 
> Offtrail
> 
> 
> Edit: After poking around CPF, I noticed the ArmyTek rep's statement that the Wizard Pro is indeed for sale on their website.



There are Wizard pro, pro wide and with cree U3. I ordered Wizard Pro xml2 u3. limited edition:rock:


----------



## Knight_Light

offtrail said:


> Knight Light,
> 
> 
> Thank you for your fascinating, ongoing posts.
> 
> Couple of quick questions regarding the ArmyTek Wizard Pro:
> 1) Unless I overlooked this fact in the early parts of the thread, it seems the headlamp does not recall the battery type (protected vs. non-protected) when you change batteries, requiring reprogramming each instance you do so. It would simplify matters if this feature could be incorporated into a near-future model update.


 You are very welcome. You know that is a good point that you bring up that I am not even sure of. I used protected cells only to see which ones would fit and if they work but most of the time for EDC and for testing I use unprotected. And since the headlamp defaults automatically to the 1st​ choice I never really bothered researching that matter. But I will get you an answer straight from the horses mouth.


----------



## RedForest UK

I'm not sure if I've missed the answer to this somewhere, but do you know what changes telling it that you are using unprotected/protected cells actually makes to the light's function? 

The only thing I can think of would be that when using protected cells the light switches off the low-voltage protection, allowing NCR based cells to be fully discharged to around 2.5v to get the last remaining capacity from them. That could explain why it defaults to unprotected, for safety's sake. But that is just speculation on my part.


----------



## Glenn7

YAY! got my shipping notice today.


----------



## toysareforboys

Glenn7 said:


> YAY! got my shipping notice today.


Me too  woot woot!

-Jamie M.


----------



## KarstGhost

Is the Armytek store the only place these are in stock right now?


----------



## beast1210

KarstGhost said:


> Is the Armytek store the only place these are in stock right now?


I just ordered one from going gear .com


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## RedForest UK

I think the best price on them atm is at hkequipment, you can use the code WZPCWoff / WZPWCWoff for a significant discount


----------



## UltraRunner

Ultrarunner questions: How comfortable is the headband, especially for long time use, as in all night? Also, how tight do you have to have it to run trails with this light and will that make it uncomfortable for long time, as in all night, use? Does it stay in place while running or does it giggle about? Thanks!


----------



## Knight_Light

UltraRunner said:


> Ultrarunner questions: How comfortable is the headband, especially for long time use, as in all night? Also, how tight do you have to have it to run trails with this light and will that make it uncomfortable for long time, as in all night, use? Does it stay in place while running or does it giggle about? Thanks!


 The headband is fairly comfortable as far as headbands go (how comfortable can you really get a headband anyway). I had no problem using it all night long while night hiking. I would say to go running with it you would need to have it somewhat snug, but it is still comfortable. It stays in place when you run.


----------



## Knight_Light

offtrail said:


> 1) Unless I overlooked this fact in the early parts of the thread, it seems the headlamp does not recall the battery type (protected vs. non-protected) when you change batteries, requiring reprogramming each instance you do so. It would simplify matters if this feature could be incorporated into a near-future model update.


Here is the answer directly from Armytek. Once the battery is selected it remembers the selection even when the battery is removed. In other words you do not have to change the setting if you are using the same type of battery over and over again.


----------



## Glenn7

Knight_Light said:


> Here is the answer directly from Armytek. Once the battery is selected it remembers the selection even when the battery is removed. In other words you do not have to change the setting if you are using the same type of battery over and over again.


Excellent thanks buddy :thumbsup:


----------



## ArcticHighlander

RedForest UK said:


> I think the best price on them atm is at hkequipment, you can use the code WZPCWoff / WZPWCWoff for a significant discount


Neither code worked for me. It also doesn't include the free battery and charger.


----------



## Sukram

ArcticHighlander said:


> Neither code worked for me. It also doesn't include the free battery and charger.



Try discount code 4july at armytek.com and get 15 %. It works


----------



## ArcticHighlander

RedForest UK said:


> I think the best price on them atm is at hkequipment, you can use the code WZPCWoff / WZPWCWoff for a significant discount


Neither code worked for me. It also doesn't include the free battery and charger.


----------



## ArcticHighlander

ArcticHighlander said:


> Neither code worked for me. It also doesn't include the free battery and charger.



Ordered from Armytek directly; cost w/everything was $80.32. Need to make sure you click on 'add all to cart' at the bottom of the page (rather than 'add to cart' at top) to get the battery and charger thrown in for free (hkequipment was more and didn't include the battery & charger). Use coupon 4july. Only good until 11:59EST July 5th:
Subtotal: $99.95 
Order discount: $19.63 
Coupon: 4july 
Shipping cost: $0.00 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Total cost: $80.32


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## RedForest UK

I'm surprised the code didn't work for you, I ordered with it a few days ago for a discount of $19. I think you got a better deal in the end with the battery and charger thrown in, but I didn't want to order direct from Armytek as they ship DHL and so I would be guaranteed 20% + $15 import duty. I have a ton of well performing unprotected cells from laptop pulls anyway


----------



## ArcticHighlander

RedForest UK said:


> I'm surprised the code didn't work for you, I ordered with it a few days ago for a discount of $19. I think you got a better deal in the end with the battery and charger thrown in, but I didn't want to order direct from Armytek as they ship DHL and so I would be guaranteed 20% + $15 import duty. I have a ton of well performing unprotected cells from laptop pulls anyway


I think it was because it required a $99.95 minimum to work and it was less than that after I used the forums discount selection. If I didn't use that it worked and gave a total of $80.95. Or if I used the 10% forum discount and added another item to bring it up to $99.95 it also deducted the $19 on top of that. But I couldn't find anything else I wanted and the other seemed a better deal, at least for me. I'm in the US and other items from China haven't had import fees (knock on wood). Don't need the charger but for me an extra battery is a plus. I am disappointed that the lowest firefly setting is only .5 lumens - I was hoping for .1 or lower.


----------



## RedForest UK

Oh, I thought it just couldn't be used in conjunction with the BLF/CPF discount.. If I'd known adding something else to bring the total up to $99.95 would've worked then I would've picked something else up too


----------



## ArcticHighlander

Girryn said:


> What function does a sub .5 lumen low have for you? I have very sensitive night vision and find anything less than 1 lumen in a dispersed beam unusable even with dark adapted eyes. I am having trouble understanding what function such low lows serve other than satisfying an artificial need created by the cpf hivemind.
> Even with the more focused beam of my rotary the low modes are not very functional. The only time I use it is when I need light in the middle of the night and my light blocking curtains are still on from the night shift schedule. If the curtains are not on, the the starlight from the window outshines the lowest modes.


I don't have good night vision anymore and I have a ZL H600 that at its lowest setting of .1 is still much too bright at night, even when my eyes haven't adjusted to the dark. I use another light indoors for getting around at night instead because of that. I hoped I could use this as an everything light and if the price with battery hadn't been so good at the moment the .5 would have been a deal breaker. Proper low settings are as important for night vision as the high settings and unfortunately Armytek missed the boat on this one - it could have been a truly great all around light.


----------



## Knight_Light

Glenn7 said:


> Excellent thanks buddy :thumbsup:


 You are very welcome. I'm looking forward to a lot of you guys getting your product so we can actually discuss it not based on thirdhand but on hands-on experience.


----------



## Knight_Light

I have heard a lot of discussion on the sub lumen level on this particular thread. So I decided to clarify a few things since I have actually used this product along with several other headlamps including Zebra Light.

.5 lm in this headlamp is not as bright as it would be in a H600, Armytek uses a TIR optic whereas the Zebra Light does not. I don’t debate personal choices so I can’t comment on whether this is too much or not enough light, but I did want to point out that because of the different optic you are not really comparing apples to apples but apples to oranges.

The reason that I make this distinction is that people that are used to zebra light at 0.1Lm should not think that this is automatically going to translate into 5 times the perceived brightness. I hope this helps you guys make informed decisions about this product.


----------



## Beacon of Light

I wish I had known Armytek was going to issue a 15% off promo for July4th. When I just ordered a week ago I was asking why the CPF discount of 8% off wasn't working on the purchase. Now I feel like cancelling the order and just re-ordering now.


----------



## bradthebold

Beacon of Light said:


> I wish I had known Armytek was going to issue a 15% off promo for July4th. When I just ordered a week ago I was asking why the CPF discount of 8% off wasn't working on the purchase. Now I feel like cancelling the order and just re-ordering now.



Yeah, my light will be here Monday. They make it sound like they pay return shipping, though it's kind of confusing, "send the package prepaid to us." I'll call and see if they'll refund the discout otherwise I'll return and reorder if they're paying shipping. $15 is a pair of batteries.


----------



## Beacon of Light

right plus I would now be able to get 2 sets of the Wide and regular with the battery and charger and it will still be less than the U3 I ordered and the Wide with the battery/charger kit.

Since I ordered 2 lights, the price difference with the discount is closer to $30, plus I'd get an extra charger and 18650 battery...


----------



## Knight_Light

It seems a lot of people are going to be utilizing this headlamp in an outdoor environment as well as EDC. One of the downsides of the Wizard is the lack of an attachment point for a lanyard. So I updated the 2nd portion of my review (titled "*Alternative Carry Solution:*") to demonstrate my solution to some of the shortcomings of this headlamp as well as expanding its capabilities. Hopefully this helps you guys, and maybe encourages you to share some of your solutions as well.


----------



## bradthebold

Their phone number doesn't seem to be working for me at least. It either just rings or I get an invalid number. It's a US number right, with a Minnesota area code? I've tried with my phone and google voice, also picking Canada in Google voice (not that it should make a difference since the country code is the same). I also asked them a question through email about 5-6 days ago and still haven't gotten a response. I'd rather talk to them before just ordering another discounted light.


----------



## Beacon of Light

Since I have an abundance of RCR123 and LiFePo4 3.0v and 3.7v cells, can I use these with a dummy cell in place of the 18650 cell in the Armytek Wizard Pro? It should still work as long as it is under the 4.2v limit, correct?


----------



## Beacon of Light

Same here, I got a Minnesota number even though it should be in Canada. I also just sent an email, but after hearing you sent one a few days ago and no response, I doubt I will get a response before the lights arrive on Monday. 

Does anyone know if there is free return shipping for these? I am tempted to place an order for 1 standard Wizard Pro with charger/batteryt and a wide Wizard Pro with charger and battery and return the first order, just so I can get the discount.



bradthebold said:


> Their phone number doesn't seem to be working for me at least. It either just rings or I get an invalid number. It's a US number right, with a Minnesota area code? I've tried with my phone and google voice, also picking Canada in Google voice (not that it should make a difference since the country code is the same). I also asked them a question through email about 5-6 days ago and still haven't gotten a response. I'd rather talk to them before just ordering another discounted light.


----------



## RedForest UK

That all sounds a bit wasteful in time and money, I would try your best to contact them and they should refund you the difference to save themselves the trouble if not anything else. Maybe try a PM on the marketplace, they seem to be active there relatively often.


----------



## Dhobi

I have changed my order from wide to standard while the status was "awaiting packing" and I got confirmation email from Sandra Trusilo from Armytek within 24 hour. In the email subjekt I have written "IMPORTANT CHANGE"...


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## toysareforboys

Just got mine today. Was fooled by the Canadian address, mine was shipped from China and dinged $25 in fee's 

-Jamie M.


----------



## Grumpy1

toysareforboys said:


> Just got mine today. Was fooled by the Canadian address, mine was shipped from China and dinged $25 in fee's
> 
> -Jamie M.



Thats not cool. So much for free shipping :thumbsdow


----------



## canibalplatipus

toysareforboys said:


> Just got mine today. Was fooled by the Canadian address, mine was shipped from China and dinged $25 in fee's
> 
> -Jamie M.



Did you get the bundle? Flashlight charger and battery. I'm in alberta and mine is suppose to arrive monday. 

Sent from my SGH-I747M using Tapatalk 2


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## bradthebold

canibalplatipus said:


> Did you get the bundle? Flashlight charger and battery. I'm in alberta and mine is suppose to arrive monday.
> 
> Sent from my SGH-I747M using Tapatalk 2



I got the bundle and mine went from Canada to China to Memphis, TN right now.


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## ArcticHighlander

Was there any customs fee? How long after ordering did it take to ship and how long after that to arrive?


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## Beacon of Light

Something is odd with the shipping. On my tracking it went from China to Hong Kong and then 2 hours later it is in Memphis TN. How is this possible?

It can get to Memphis Tennessee from Hong Kong in 2 hours but it takes a good part of a week to go from Memphis TN to Florida?


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## bradthebold

Yeah, same here. Mine went from China to TN in less than 2 hours then made it to Denver from Memphis in 1 hour flat. I'm not sure about any customs fee yet.


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## canibalplatipus

Yeah mine went from china to Memphis and now its in Alberta.

Sent from my SGH-I747M using Tapatalk 2


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## Knight_Light

It takes anywhere from 4 to 7 days for DHL to arrive from China.


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## syracuse

Just got my wizard pro today. God...I've to pay another 24USD for the custom fee 
With a short play, the UI is quite good. The light look very sturdy, but it does not work with both of my protected 18650B. The first firefly, 0.5 lm, of this wizard look brighter than 0.5 lm of my D25A. Anyway, It is my love at first sight head lamp...


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## Knight_Light

syracuse said:


> With a short play, the UI is quite good. The light look very sturdy, but it does not work with both of my protected 18650B.


 Who makes those protected batteries? I probably tried half a dozen to a dozen and they all fit and work just fine. Did you tell the headlamp that you are using a protected battery, maybe that helps your situation.


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## syracuse

Panasonic NCR18650B from FT... Both of mine can fit in the light, but does not work


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## syracuse

Sorry, my bad...
I just try again, this time I twist the tail cap a bit harder and the light work! :huh::ironic:


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## Knight_Light

syracuse said:


> Sorry, my bad...
> I just try again, this time I twist the tail cap a bit harder and the light work! :huh::ironic:


 Because the light has anodized threads you have to screw the tail down all the way. Even 1/8 of a turn will prevent the light from functioning (this is what tail cap lockout is all about).


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## toysareforboys

canibalplatipus said:


> Did you get the bundle? Flashlight charger and battery. I'm in alberta and mine is suppose to arrive monday.


I got just the light and headband, no battery or charger 

-Jamie M.


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## toysareforboys

syracuse said:


> Panasonic NCR18650B from FT... Both of mine can fit in the light, but does not work


I'm worried those very long batteries are putting a lot of pressure on the driver board in the head of the flashlight, as you have to screw the tail cap down extra extra hard to make em work 

-Jamie M.


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## Beacon of Light

I'll have to wait for judgment on this until I receive it Monday, but the perceived brighter than .5 lumen will kill this for me and the potential to crack the pcb by having to crank the cap on tight for it to work, the possibility of a customs fee and the possibility the charger and battery won't come with mine as it didn't with *toysareforboys *are making me think I should have waited till others had these in their hands instead of ordering it based on one review.


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## toysareforboys

Beacon of Light said:


> I'll have to wait for judgment on this until I receive it Monday, but the perceived brighter than .5 lumen will kill this for me and the potential to crack the pcb by having to crank the cap on tight for it to work, the possibility of a customs fee and the possibility the charger and battery won't come with mine as it didn't with *toysareforboys *are making me think I should have waited till others had these in their hands instead of ordering it based on one review.


I haven't tried the low modes yet, maybe I'll give it a go tonight. I love love love the lowest low on my SC 600MKii so we'll see how low the Wizard Pro will go 

-Jamie M.


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## Beacon of Light

not so low according to *syracuse* as he said it is brighter than the .5 lumen of his D25 light whatever that is?



toysareforboys said:


> I haven't tried the low modes yet, maybe I'll give it a go tonight. I love love love the lowest low on my SC 600MKii so we'll see how low the Wizard Pro will go
> 
> -Jamie M.


----------



## ArcticHighlander

toysareforboys said:


> I haven't tried the low modes yet, maybe I'll give it a go tonight. I love love love the lowest low on my SC 600MKii so we'll see how low the Wizard Pro will go
> 
> -Jamie M.



Your lowest on your ZebraLight SC600MKII is .02 lumens, so I'm curious what you think of the .5 lumens on this one. I was planning on getting the SC600w MKII but it was supposed to have come out 6 months ago and there still is no projected date for release. I believe the SC600 line could still be used in a Nite-Ize as a headlamp.


----------



## syracuse

The lowest low is* just a bit *brighter than 0.5lm of my D25A. It might not as bad as you thought. Oh.. in my package, I also got the extra battery and charger too.


----------



## Beacon of Light

What exactly is a D25A?


----------



## RedForest UK

Just type it into your address bar and press enter


----------



## syracuse

Beacon of Light said:


> What exactly is a D25A?



EagleTac D25A Clicky ANSI FL-1 lumen


----------



## syracuse

To.. Knight Light, toysareforboys and anyone who own this wizard,
I have used my wizard pro for 2 days and found a strange habit on mine. It gradually heat up on standby mode (turn the light off with no tail cap lockout). The light was very very warm, but not too hot to hold on hand. I've ordered a non contact infrared thermometer to measure the temperature, now it is on the way.
Here is what i did on my light:- 
Starting from room temp (have not turn the light on for a few hours)
1. insert any 18650 battery (either protected or non-protected yield the same result)
2. tell the light what battery was put in.
3. turn off state indication (Turn on state indication also yield the same result)
4. turn off the light.
5. 10 minute after turn off the light, I can feel the light get warm.
6. 30 minute after turn off the light, it was very warm (i confident it was above 40C)
7. I take the battery off and it was very warm too.
My fully charged battery, the one that included in the package, deplete within 1 day (10 hours on firefly1 and around 30 minutes on others mode).
Any recommendation would be very appreciate. I've already write to Armytek and still waiting for their advise. 
Thank you and best regards,


----------



## Phry

I have recently purchased the 70m version of this light and initially am very impressed. 

Somewhat complicated UI initially but once you have it down it is pretty easy really. 

Lot of light, feels like a tank, including the head band and holder. 

Seems good.


----------



## Knight_Light

toysareforboys said:


> I'm worried those very long batteries are putting a lot of pressure on the driver board in the head of the flashlight, as you have to screw the tail cap down extra extra hard to make em work
> 
> -Jamie M.


 I've tried some of the longer batteries (protected) and found it to be not a big problem. I also didn't notice that I had to exert any more effort to get the tail cap onto the headlamp.


----------



## toysareforboys

syracuse said:


> It gradually heat up on standby mode


I've always locked mine out. I'll try it right now with no tailcap lock out. If it heats up, you can bet the standby current drain will be HUGE! I can use my meter to test the standby current drain as well.

Will report back in 30 mins 

-Jamie M.


----------



## Knight_Light

syracuse said:


> To.. Knight Light, toysareforboys and anyone who own this wizard,
> I have used my wizard pro for 2 days and found a strange habit on mine. It gradually heat up on standby mode (turn the light off with no tail cap lockout). The light was very very warm, but not too hot to hold on hand. I've ordered a non contact infrared thermometer to measure the temperature, now it is on the way.
> Here is what i did on my light:-
> Starting from room temp (have not turn the light on for a few hours)
> 1. insert any 18650 battery (either protected or non-protected yield the same result)
> 2. tell the light what battery was put in.
> 3. turn off state indication (Turn on state indication also yield the same result)
> 4. turn off the light.
> 5. 10 minute after turn off the light, I can feel the light get warm.
> 6. 30 minute after turn off the light, it was very warm (i confident it was above 40C)
> 7. I take the battery off and it was very warm too.
> My fully charged battery, the one that included in the package, deplete within 1 day (10 hours on firefly1 and around 30 minutes on others mode).
> Any recommendation would be very appreciate. I've already write to Armytek and still waiting for their advise.
> Thank you and best regards,


This is not normal behavior and does not occur on both of my headlamps. I would definitely exchange the light under warranty.


----------



## syracuse

Knight_Light said:


> This is not normal behavior and does not occur on both of my headlamps. I would definitely exchange the light under warranty.



Thanks Knight Light. Armytek has told me this is a very strange situation and ask me to send the light back to the factory. I'm gonna go to the postoffice.


----------



## toysareforboys

syracuse said:


> Thanks Knight Light. Armytek has told me this is a very strange situation and ask me to send the light back to the factory. I'm gonna go to the postoffice.


I just confirmed, mine does NOT do this, both with protected and unprotected batteries.

-Jamie M.


----------



## Knight_Light

syracuse said:


> Thanks Knight Light. Armytek has told me this is a very strange situation and ask me to send the light back to the factory. I'm gonna go to the postoffice.


 You Are Welcome.


----------



## KarstGhost

I got mine today from Going Gear! Just playing around with it in the back yard I am very impressed. The beam profile is nice (I have the pro, not wide.) 

I'll be taking this light caving this weekend and will report back with further impressions.


----------



## Knight_Light

I have taken this light caving on several occasions and it performs very well, especially on the 250 lm mode.


----------



## bradthebold

Just got the light, and I don't think I got charged any customs fees at least. Appears to be great so far, it is a lot floodier than I expected, which is good. They did send me a European plug with the charger though, so we'll see if they'll send me an American plugged cable.


----------



## canibalplatipus

I was charged customs fees. But on the other hand fedex has amazing customer support. 

I got the wizard pro not the wide. This light is kick ***. The ui is confusing at first but really easy after you figure it out. 
Sent from my SGH-I747M using Tapatalk 2


----------



## beast1210

Armytek Wizard Pro on standard up close test range
Quick gif of firefly 1, firefly 2, main 1, main 2, main 3, main 4, max. Camera is set same I always use, F3.5 S 2.5


----------



## Phry

beast1210 said:


> Armytek Wizard Pro on standard up close test range
> Quick gif of firefly 1, firefly 2, main 1, main 2, main 3, main 4, max. Camera is set same I always use, F3.5 S 2.5



Many thanks.

Is that the 70 meter version or 40 meter version?


----------



## Glenn7

After testing my 5500K U3 limited Pro "Wide" I am really happy - Because I knew this light would never be a thrower I chose the "wide" so I could see everything in front and side of me - I like that the combination of the 5500K tint and optics that make for no bounce back glare (even on high) from anything it hits which is great for up close work.


----------



## ArcticHighlander

Does anyone know whether Armytek uses out the front Lumens in their specs or emitter/bulb lumens?


----------



## jonathanluu2

Got mine yesterday. No customs fees for me (USA). All parts were accounted for. Box for the charger and headlamp were pretty beat up. No issues with the light though. Works well for me around the house without the over-the-top headband addition. Holey moley bright for a headlamp! The button is like a rock too. I dont think you will have to worry about accidentally activating it in your pack. I actually accidentally *release *the button prematurely when holding to cycle through modes it requires so much pressure. No issues with fitting 69mm protected batteries in the tube. Great light so far!

J.


----------



## beast1210

Phry said:


> Many thanks.
> 
> Is that the 70 meter version or 40 meter version?



Its the Wizard Pro "70m" not the Wide 40m


----------



## Beacon of Light

Got mine Monday as well. I like that the lights seem more rugged and bombproof than the Zebralights but maybe that is due to it being a 18650 light and maybe the H600 is similarly like this? 

I got the U3 Wide and the U2 regular. I only have 1 battery (I wish I was able to get the deal for the july4 promo) but the lights seem similar to me. Weird thing is on the lights both have the same markings and say XM-L2. One says LIMITED EDITION on the tailcap but not sure these are really different. 

I was surprised that the .5 lumen was as low as it was. I was expecting their .5 lumen to be more like a 3 lumen firefly mode and that honestly wouldn't fly with me. 

The UI is a little cumbersome but not hard to figure out. I do have some reservations as there is no way to go right to the voltage tester like zebralight has. I honestly think it is weird you have to go to the strobe mode and then just keep holding the buton to get to the voltage tester. 

The first thing I needed to do was turn off the blinky switch as I prefer to wear my headlamp with the business end on my left side and that puts the switch on the bottom (which is another problem I have with this light) whereby the blinks sort of flash into your eyes every 4 seconds which is a PITA. Not sure I like the switch as it is harder to press. Kind of reminds me of one of the first "expensive lights" I bought once I discovered CPF and became a flashaholic which was the Proton Photon Pro. Similar awkward switch and same stiff little button that is painful on your fingers and at least with the Armytek, it just feels weird on the top or bottom of the light depending on how you wear it and yes I tried it facing right but being left handed that felt wrong. Zebralight thought this one out a bit better with the switch on the end, it is just so much more ergonomic and logical.

The end cap needs to be locked out or the parasitic drain will occur, if you don't deactivate the blinking light that will further drain the battery, and the report of the heating of the battery just sitting idle is a concern. Fortunately the threads seem ok so not a huge deal breaker. 

I may decide to keep this as the tint of the light is good and white and the low is ok although I wish there were further lower modes. Does anyone know if I could use a RCR123 3.7v cell with a dummy cell in this? I have tons of RCR123s and a lack of lights to use with, so if I could use them in this I'd actually have a reason to keep these.

Did anyone get a discount from the july4 promo? I got a response from Armytek but they just said I got the cpf 8% discount on the 1 light and sort of that I should be happy I got that, nevermind I could have had 2 lights with batteries and chargers and I would have saved a further $30 to boot if I could have applied the July4 code retroactively. I figured since I ordered days before they sprung up the july4 promotion they'd just give it to me, but I never seem to be lucky like that, but I asked anyways. Did anyone else ask and get the discount reduction after their initial order?


----------



## EsthetiX

Beacon of Light said:


> The end cap needs to be locked out or the parasitic drain will occur, if you don't deactivate the blinking light that will further drain the battery, and the report of the heating of the battery just sitting idle is a concern. Fortunately the threads seem ok so not a huge deal breaker.



It's called "state indicator" and it's easy to turn it on and off without permanently locking out the light. It's not just for monitoring heat. It also helps you find the light if misplaced and it tells you voltage. This was mentioned in the first post BTW 

But to turn it off unscrew the cap a bit, then while holding the button scew the cap in and out again. The setting will be remembered. A very logical design IMO. The amount of drain is so incredibly minimal that I wouldn't worry about the state indicator. I find it useful but may turn it off if it starts to annoy me in the dark.


----------



## EsthetiX

Beacon of Light said:


> Did anyone get a discount from the july4 promo? I got a response from Armytek but they just said I got the cpf 8% discount on the 1 light and sort of that I should be happy I got that, nevermind I could have had 2 lights with batteries and chargers and I would have saved a further $30 to boot if I could have applied the July4 code retroactively. I figured since I ordered days before they sprung up the july4 promotion they'd just give it to me, but I never seem to be lucky like that, but I asked anyways. Did anyone else ask and get the discount reduction after their initial order?



I canceled it and re-ordered on the day of the promo.


----------



## bradthebold

Beacon of Light said:


> Got mine Monday as well. I like that the lights seem more rugged and bombproof than the Zebralights but maybe that is due to it being a 18650 light and maybe the H600 is similarly like this?
> 
> The UI is a little cumbersome but not hard to figure out. I do have some reservations as there is no way to go right to the voltage tester like zebralight has. I honestly think it is weird you have to go to the strobe mode and then just keep holding the buton to get to the voltage tester.
> 
> Did anyone get a discount from the july4 promo? I got a response from Armytek but they just said I got the cpf 8% discount on the 1 light and sort of that I should be happy I got that, nevermind I could have had 2 lights with batteries and chargers and I would have saved a further $30 to boot if I could have applied the July4 code retroactively. I figured since I ordered days before they sprung up the july4 promotion they'd just give it to me, but I never seem to be lucky like that, but I asked anyways. Did anyone else ask and get the discount reduction after their initial order?



Once you get to the voltage indicator mode, it remembers it. So from off, you just have to turn it on and click it 4 times to get back to the voltage indicator. 

I asked about the july4 promo code too and she seemed like it was ridiculous I was even asking because I didn't order in the right date range, even though my light didn't even ship until after the promo started. I've been going back and forth trying to get an American plug for the charger too, we'll see how that goes. They also just completely ignored my question I sent a week and a half ago. Not very pleased with the customer service experience. I also asked about their phone number and it not working and she just ignored the question. At least I didn't get charged customs fees, I doubt they would do anything about it.

Is there a lot of parasitic drain with the indicator blinking off?


----------



## EsthetiX

bradthebold said:


> Is there a lot of parasitic drain with the indicator blinking off?




Negligible.


----------



## Beacon of Light

I would have done that but the lights had already shipped by then and was only a couple of days before arriving to me at the start of the july4 promo. I don't think I could have cancelled at that point.



EsthetiX said:


> I canceled it and re-ordered on the day of the promo.


----------



## Beacon of Light

Ok state indicator, but I would just use the voltage tester to determine voltage than wait for the color to change of the flashing light. I know how to turn it off as I said, that was the first thing I did to the light as it was very annoying. I have had Zebralights for years now and I've never needed a flashing light to find them. Heck I didn't really need the glow in the dark ring on the H502s either but I'm not complaining they have it.



EsthetiX said:


> It's called "state indicator" and it's easy to turn it on and off without permanently locking out the light. It's not just for monitoring heat. It also helps you find the light if misplaced and it tells you voltage. This was mentioned in the first post BTW
> 
> But to turn it off unscrew the cap a bit, then while holding the button scew the cap in and out again. The setting will be remembered. A very logical design IMO. The amount of drain is so incredibly minimal that I wouldn't worry about the state indicator. I find it useful but may turn it off if it starts to annoy me in the dark.


----------



## Beacon of Light

based on what?


EsthetiX said:


> Negligible.


----------



## EsthetiX

A blinking LED drawing .0001 amp would take decades. Yes, decades. The batteries would self discharge on their own by that time. The drain is so insignificant that it would not make any difference to the overall battery life or the runtime.


----------



## Beacon of Light

One other issue is the holder is so tight it is hard to rotate the light when in use. With any of my Zebralights the holder keeps the light held tight but loose enough for easy rotation in the holder to angle the light on whatever you are focusing it on. I constantly rotate the light when it is on my head. 

With the Armytek Wizard it is so tight and it's probably not wise to try to twist it in the holder by the tailcap end which is the logical place to turn it as it is the longest end out of the holder. Would not want to crack the PCB inside the light by overtightening the tailcap end. Trying to twist the light from the middle area where it is in the holder is not easy. Reminds me of the iTP H-01 which was very difficult to angle the light and that had a unique problem of it twisting the tailcap off when doing it but it has the same type of super grippy rubber. I prefer the slick silicone holders that Zebralight uses. 

Once again it seems Zebralight thought all of these things through and it's surprising nobody has taken what Zebralight has pioneered the industry with and just improved on that.


----------



## ArcticHighlander

ArcticHighlander said:


> Does anyone know whether Armytek uses out the front Lumens in their specs or emitter/bulb lumens?


Anyone?????


----------



## candle lamp

ArcticHighlander said:


> Anyone?????



Armytek use LED lumen in their specification. Here is some reference.


----------



## ArcticHighlander

candle lamp said:


> Armytek use LED lumen in their specification. Here is some reference.


I guess then I'm not so sure that this Armytek is that much more efficient than the Zebralights. The ZL H600 is 1000 LED lumen and 420 OTF (750 turbo/high) and the SC600 MKIII is 1100 LED lumens and 500 OTF (900 turbo/high). Also ZL tested their run times on the H600 using the lower output Panasonic NCR18650 2900mAH batteries and their SC600 MIII using ZL631 3100mAh protected batteries.


----------



## Lampyridae

I've been reading this thread from the day 1, so allow me few questions:
So, if I understand correctly, <Knight_Light> has both versions (regular U2 & wide U2) and notice minor or no difference between them. <Beacon of Light> has U3 wide and U2 regular version and also notice no difference. So, what's the catch? And what does the Limited Edition means? Is there any serial No.? Like No. 35/500, No. 36/500... To how much units is Limited Edition limited? Or is it just mark on the tailcap convicting you that U3 is under TIR optics?

P.S. Hello everybody! :wave:


----------



## jonathanluu2

Something I used to compare models, as I was debating the Zebralight/Armytek thing. I hope this helps.
I know that it is not a comparison of apples to apples in the least bit, considering the discrepancies in beam angles, tint, optics, and output, but I will let you decide what lamp you think is preferable.

(all values are from the specifications posted on the corresponding headlamp websites. I have not tested to confirm their exact values.)


*Armytek Wizard Pro**Zebralight H600**Zebralight H600Fw**Tint*: 5500k*Tint*: 6300k*Tint*: 4200k*Spill*: 120°*Spill*: 80°*Spill*: 90°*Spot*:70°*Spot*:12°*Spot*: N/A*Optics*:TIR*Optics*:Clear*Optics*: Frosted*Battery*: 3100mAh (for below runtimes)*Battery*: 2900mAh*Battery*: 2900mAh*Output:**Output:**Output:*1010 lm (1h 6min)N/AN/A550 lm (2.8h)420Lm with 750Lm turbo in the first 3 min (2.4 hrs)343Lm with 612Lm turbo in the first 3 min (2.4 hrs)250 lm (7h)170Lm (7 hrs) / 270Lm (4 hrs)139Lm (7 hrs) / 220Lm (4 hrs)115 lm (15h)65Lm (18 hrs)53Lm (18 hrs)30 lm (50h)21Lm (50 hrs)7Lm (50 hrs)7 lm (9d)2.8Lm (11.5 d)2.3Lm (11.5 days)0.5 lm (100d)0.1Lm (80 days)0.09Lm (80 days)


Also,
Lampyridae,:welcome:

And, yes, one would hope that the U3 is under that TIR, though it will probably be hard to tell unless the lens is taken off haha. I think the "Limited Edition" just means it has the marginally more efficient/bright U3 LED for those that consider this highly valuable. I will let someone else speak of the stamp itself, as I do not have that particular light.


----------



## jonathanluu2

Beacon of Light said:


> Zebralight thought this one out a bit better with the switch on the end, it is just so much more ergonomic and logical.



Ive heard this debated so many times its not even funny anymore. As long as its got a button Im happy. I have likes and dislikes of both setups.



Beacon of Light said:


> Does anyone know if I could use a RCR123 3.7v cell with a dummy cell in this? I have tons of RCR123s and a lack of lights to use with, so if I could use them in this I'd actually have a reason to keep these.



I suppose the light will "see" roughly the same voltage, its just a matter of if your RCR123's are rated for the current draw from the light, especially on its higher settings. 



Beacon of Light said:


> One other issue is the holder is so tight it is hard to rotate the light when in use.
> With the Armytek Wizard it is so tight and it's probably not wise to try to twist it in the holder by the tailcap end which is the logical place to turn it as it is the longest end out of the holder.



Agreed, the holder is a bit clunkier than I would have imagined too. I am thinking of rounding out the corners of the holder (the part that conforms to your forehead) to make it a bit less obtrusive. Perhaps I will try to take a bit of sandpaper and Nyogel to the rings of the holder to make it a bit more manageable. I just grab the light by the head and give it a firm twist when I want to rotate it. Works okay for now.

J.


----------



## Outdoorsman5

For those that have both a Zebralight and the new Armytek - WHICH UI DO YOU LIKE BETTER? WHY?


----------



## Knight_Light

Beacon of Light said:


> Got mine Monday as well. I like that the lights seem more rugged and bombproof than the Zebralights but maybe that is due to it being a 18650 light and maybe the H600 is similarly like this?


 I have both headlamps and the Armytek is definitely more rugged in my opinion. Having said that the H600 is plenty rugged for almost any task.



Beacon of Light said:


> I was surprised that the .5 lumen was as low as it was. I was expecting their .5 lumen to be more like a 3 lumen firefly mode and that honestly wouldn't fly with me.


 This is the point I was trying to get across earlier that because of the TIR optic it would not be as bright and was actually a very usable level.



Beacon of Light said:


> I do have some reservations as there is no way to go right to the voltage tester like zebralight has. I honestly think it is weird you have to go to the strobe mode and then just keep holding the buton to get to the voltage tester.


 There is a way to go directly to the voltage tester. That section of the light has memorization as well so if you leave it on the battery voltage tester all you have to do is go to that particular section and you will automatically enter the battery voltage tester.



Beacon of Light said:


> The end cap needs to be locked out or the parasitic drain will occur, if you don't deactivate the blinking light that will further drain the battery, and the report of the heating of the battery just sitting idle is a concern. Fortunately the threads seem ok so not a huge deal breaker.


 The parasitic drain is negligible so unless you are going to be storing this headlamp for over a year it will not make any noticeable difference. The heating issue was with a particular headlamp this issue does not exist in a properly functioning unit.



Beacon of Light said:


> I may decide to keep this as the tint of the light is good and white and the low is ok although I wish there were further lower modes. Does anyone know if I could use a RCR123 3.7v cell with a dummy cell in this? I have tons of RCR123s and a lack of lights to use with, so if I could use them in this I'd actually have a reason to keep these.


 The answer is both yes and no. If you utilize the lower levels you can use rcr123 with a dummy cell if you go into the higher modes you cannot because the light will draw too high of a current.


----------



## Knight_Light

Beacon of Light said:


> Ok state indicator, but I would just use the voltage tester to determine voltage than wait for the color to change of the flashing light. I know how to turn it off as I said, that was the first thing I did to the light as it was very annoying. I have had Zebralights for years now and I've never needed a flashing light to find them. Heck I didn't really need the glow in the dark ring on the H502s either but I'm not complaining they have it.


 Being able to locate your light in the dark is a pretty useful feature. My solution is always to just leave the light on in Sublumen mode. I can't tell you how many times it helped me find my light in my backpack or when dropping it into a pile of leaves at night.


----------



## Knight_Light

Beacon of Light said:


> One other issue is the holder is so tight it is hard to rotate the light when in use. With any of my Zebralights the holder keeps the light held tight but loose enough for easy rotation in the holder to angle the light on whatever you are focusing it on. I constantly rotate the light when it is on my head.


 You are absolutely right the holder is a little bit too tight on the Armytek but it is a lot better then being 2 loose which is what it is often on zebra lights. Try using only one strap that’s what I do indoors and it works fairly well.



Beacon of Light said:


> with the Armytek Wizard it is so tight and it's probably not wise to try to twist it in the holder by the tailcap end which is the logical place to turn it as it is the longest end out of the holder. Would not want to crack the PCB inside the light by overtightening the tailcap end.
> 
> Once again it seems Zebralight thought all of these things through and it's surprising nobody has taken what Zebralight has pioneered the industry with and just improved on that.


 You will not crack anything by holding onto the tail to twist the headlamp. Once the threads bottom out it’s not going any further.

I hate to zebra light head strap. It doesn’t have a top strap which is super important for a headband and the silicon holder is 2 loose on most of the headlamp’s. So I would have to disagree with your statement.


----------



## Knight_Light

ArcticHighlander said:


> I guess then I'm not so sure that this Armytek is that much more efficient than the Zebralights. The ZL H600 is 1000 LED lumen and 420 OTF (750 turbo/high) and the SC600 MKIII is 1100 LED lumens and 500 OTF (900 turbo/high). Also ZL tested their run times on the H600 using the lower output Panasonic NCR18650 2900mAH batteries and their SC600 MIII using ZL631 3100mAh protected batteries.


The Armytek is a lot more efficient in the higher lumen output levels and less efficient in the lower levels.


----------



## Knight_Light

Lampyridae said:


> I've been reading this thread from the day 1, so allow me few questions:
> So, if I understand correctly, <Knight_Light> has both versions (regular U2 & wide U2) and notice minor or no difference between them. <Beacon of Light> has U3 wide and U2 regular version and also notice no difference. So, what's the catch? And what does the Limited Edition means? Is there any serial No.? Like No. 35/500, No. 36/500... To how much units is Limited Edition limited? Or is it just mark on the tailcap convicting you that U3 is under TIR optics?
> 
> P.S. Hello everybody!


 Welcome to CPF. I cannot comment on the U3 as I do not have that particular headlamp. Based on the fact that this is a TIR optic and the only difference between the regular and the wide being the spot (70 vs 90) there is no noticeable difference in the beam shape in distances beyond 5 to 7 feet. However even though there is no difference in beam shape there is a noticeable difference in brightness at the respective output levels. So 30 lm on the regular looks a lot brighter than 30 lm on the wide while having almost identical beam shape.


----------



## Knight_Light

Outdoorsman5 said:


> For those that have both a Zebralight and the new Armytek - WHICH UI DO YOU LIKE BETTER? WHY?


I have both headlamps and to be honest I like both UIs giving the Armytek a slight edge. Zebra light has the convenience of being able to access 3 modes fairly easily and quickly and intuitively but if you want to access the additional modes it becomes a lot more cumbersome.

With Armytek you can jump around from different modes a lot easier.


----------



## Beacon of Light

Not sure how using the single headstrap makes the Wizard easier to rotate in the holder, or are you saying to cut off one of the loops of the rubber holder????

Someone posted in one of the Armytek threads about being careful of over tightening the tailcap for fear of not only stripping the threads, but cracking the pcb inside the light from pressure of the 18650.

I only have the 1 strap as I hate headstaps with the top strap, as I never use them as I feel like a mental patient with a top strap and it just feels wrong. We will have to agree to disagree as I love the zebralights holders and headstraps. I love the elasticity and graphic design of the ZL straps as well as the buckles. The Armytek strap isn't as secure and tends to loosen up even with the loose end doubled over the buckle and tucked in. The Zebralight stays sized exactly where you size it, but it is easy to adjust on the fly. 

The silicone holder on the Zebralight I find the best of any headlamps as it allows a smooth rotation and I have never had one where it is too loose. I own an H50/H50B/H31?H51/H51F/and 2 H502s and none of them have the light flopping around in the holder. They all stay put but are super easy to rotate and adjust. Basically they are perfect. I would also prefer the light to be on the looser side than too tight as if it was too loose you can wrap some tape or something to cause friction. With the Armytek it will require sanding or removing material. Plus I also prefer the glow in the dark holder and I have them on all my Zebralights. 

I'll probably be sending the U3 Wide and U2 regular back as I'm not really happy with them for the roughly $200 it cost me for them. I'd be interested in H600 but I'd be willing to wait for their next version or Mark II with the lower modes like the H502 has.



Knight_Light said:


> You are absolutely right the holder is a little bit too tight on the Armytek but it is a lot better then being 2 loose which is what it is often on zebra lights. Try using only one strap that’s what I do indoors and it works fairly well.
> 
> You will not crack anything by holding onto the tail to twist the headlamp. Once the threads bottom out it’s not going any further.
> 
> I hate to zebra light head strap. It doesn’t have a top strap which is super important for a headband and the silicon holder is 2 loose on most of the headlamp’s. So I would have to disagree with your statement.


----------



## Beacon of Light

that doesn't do a lot for me then as all I really ever use on any light I own are the lower sub lumen levels. I have quite a few Novatac lights and after the Easter Egg hack I program all my lights and basically they are all the same, .08 (primary 1 click), .33 (secondary 2 click), .94 (minimum 3 click), 2.7 (maximum click press) I think that says it all when 2.7 lumens is all I need for HIGH on my lights.



Knight_Light said:


> The Armytek is a lot more efficient in the higher lumen output levels and less efficient in the lower levels.


----------



## Trevtrain

Beacon of Light said:


> that doesn't do a lot for me then as all I really ever use on any light I own are the lower sub lumen levels. I have quite a few Novatac lights and after the Easter Egg hack I program all my lights and basically they are all the same, .08 (primary 1 click), .33 (secondary 2 click), .94 (minimum 3 click), 2.7 (maximum click press) I think that says it all when 2.7 lumens is all I need for HIGH on my lights.



Well, no offence but if all you ever need for HIGH is 2.7 lumens why on earth did you even bother with this light?


----------



## Glenn7

Same here no offence, I agree with you beacon of light you should send back the Armytek lights as you don't seem to like them and that's Ok you are welcome to like them or not and have your opinion, you really seem to like zebra so you should stick to them if they are better for your needs. It just seems that almost every post of yours is so negative to a point that is almost like flaming/trolling (or maybe just me to me) to a point that is spoiling the thread for those that own and like the Armytek lights and want to discuss them - you have made your point now, try to see it from mine and don't take offence please.


----------



## ArcticHighlander

jonathanluu2 said:


> Something I used to compare models, as I was debating the Zebralight/Armytek thing. I hope this helps.
> I know that it is not a comparison of apples to apples in the least bit, considering the discrepancies in beam angles, tint, optics, and output, but I will let you decide what lamp you think is preferable.
> 
> (all values are from the specifications posted on the corresponding headlamp websites. I have not tested to confirm their exact values.)
> 
> 
> *Armytek Wizard Pro*
> *Zebralight H600*
> *Zebralight H600Fw*
> *Tint*: 5500k
> *Tint*: 6300k
> *Tint*: 4200k
> *Spill*: 120°
> *Spill*: 80°
> *Spill*: 90°
> *Spot*:70°
> *Spot*:12°
> *Spot*: N/A
> *Optics*:TIR
> *Optics*:Clear
> *Optics*: Frosted
> *Battery*: 3100mAh (for below runtimes)
> *Battery*: 2900mAh
> *Battery*: 2900mAh
> *Output:*
> *Output:*
> *Output:*
> 1010 lm (1h 6min)
> N/A
> N/A
> 550 lm (2.8h)
> 420Lm with 750Lm turbo in the first 3 min (2.4 hrs)
> 343Lm with 612Lm turbo in the first 3 min (2.4 hrs)
> 250 lm (7h)
> 170Lm (7 hrs) / 270Lm (4 hrs)
> 139Lm (7 hrs) / 220Lm (4 hrs)
> 115 lm (15h)
> 65Lm (18 hrs)
> 53Lm (18 hrs)
> 30 lm (50h)
> 21Lm (50 hrs)
> 7Lm (50 hrs)
> 7 lm (9d)
> 2.8Lm (11.5 d)
> 2.3Lm (11.5 days)
> 0.5 lm (100d)
> 0.1Lm (80 days)
> 0.09Lm (80 days)
> 
> 
> 
> Also,
> Lampyridae,:welcome:
> 
> And, yes, one would hope that the U3 is under that TIR, though it will probably be hard to tell unless the lens is taken off haha. I think the "Limited Edition" just means it has the marginally more efficient/bright U3 LED for those that consider this highly valuable. I will let someone else speak of the stamp itself, as I do not have that particular light.


But Armytek uses LED emitter lumens in its specifications so their specs have unrealistically high values while Zebralight's specifications are out the front, giving actual values.


----------



## Outdoorsman5

ArcticHighlander said:


> But Armytek uses LED emitter lumens in its specifications so their specs have unrealistically high values while Zebralight's specifications are out the front, giving actual values.



+1

I think Armytek is doing a great job with their new lights, and I'm looking forward to what's "next" for them. They really need to state the output of their lights in terms of "Out the Front" or better yet "ANSI" like everyone else. They can continue to quote LED lumens so long as they also quote the ANSI or OTF lumens too. 

They need to start doing this sooner than later. Every time I see a company quote the output of their lights in terms of "LED Lumens" I view them as purposely being misleading. For the most part only flashaholics know the difference, so the unsuspecting "unenlightened" person will think these lights outperform all others. When those people later learn the truth, their trust for that company is reduced. This happened to me when I was a noob. I loved LED Lenser lights with a passion until I discovered how misleading they were being. They were doing it on purpose. They stated outputs and especially runtimes that were hilarious....but I and most others didn't realize they were flat out lying to us all. Once I learned the truth I began to despise them & bash them. They have shaped up quite a bit, and have earned some of my respect back. But, I never bought another one from them.

This was just an illistration; I wouldn't put Armytek anywhere close to the same class as LED Lenser.....BUT, my advice to Armytek is to fix this now before they lose their excellent & hard-earned respect.


----------



## LEDburn

Knight_Light said:


> Runtime on the 30 lm (Mode 1) has now been CONFIRMED at 37h and 29m with an unprotected 3400 mAh Panasonic battery (NCR18650B). :thumbsup:



30 LED lumens are probably close to Zebralight's 21 lumens, right? So why are you continually going on and on and on about the Armytek being way more efficient? ZL will run for 50 hours, with a lower capacity cell. I haven't personally confirmed this but every high mode ran within 5% of spec and that I have personally tested. 
ZL's circuit in H600 is also much older, the newer SC600 runs @ a claimed 27L for 66 hours!!!! 

Since the lumens are NOT OTF I think any efficiency argument is invalid anyway as there is no way in hell of telling how much light that TIR is losing! Going off the massively inflated (maybe more misrepresented as almost everyone uses OTF or ANSI now) output claims, I sure don't have faith in them.

I was really interested in Armytek and found the Wizard when actually looking for a flashlight. Seeing as I love my H600 so much I figured I would check them out. Seems the company has the same poor CS, if not worse. All I can say is that my excitement for a genuine competitor, followed by research via this thread, has actually scared me off the brand altogether! 

Alot of the OP's posts seem like someone from marketing is posing as a genuine user albeit with major bias. All this mention of confirmed runtimes yet the lumen claims are yet to be verified and shady at best! 



Glenn7 said:


> Same here no offence, I agree with you beacon of light you should send back the Armytek lights as you don't seem to like them and that's Ok you are welcome to like them or not and have your opinion, you really seem to like zebra so you should stick to them if they are better for your needs. It just seems that almost every post of yours is so negative to a point that is almost like flaming/trolling (or maybe just me to me) to a point that is spoiling the thread for those that own and like the Armytek lights and want to discuss them - you have made your point now, try to see it from mine and don't take offence please.



Beacon of Light is just addressing issues nobody else seems to care about. Anyone who purchases two lights which they then criticize is hardly a troll if you ask me. My initial reaction was really positive, and not due to inflated output claims, but now I have read this thread, I am really in doubt that I will actually purchase any Armytek lights. Maybe that's not fair and they just screwed this up in an attempt to get into a market already dominated by a well known and respected product. 
I may have missed it, but do you have a Wizard AND H600? If so, what do you think?

For me I will wait until I hear some actual OTF numbers and I recommend others do the same. I will put my life on the line and say that ZL will be better performers, especially when their new circuit is implemented into the H600 much like SC600.

Anyone who says 0.5L is low enough obviously has poor eyes. I'm sorry but it really is that simple.


----------



## Trevtrain

LEDburn said:


> Beacon of Light is just addressing issues nobody else seems to care about. Anyone who purchases two lights which they then criticize is hardly a troll if you ask me.
> Anyone who says 0.5L is low enough obviously has poor eyes. I'm sorry but it really is that simple.



Steady on LEDburn.

I'm not sure that anyone claiming a high of 2.7lm is all that's required is really speaking for the masses. Additionally, purchasing two lights and then returning them simply because you later decided you didn't get a good enough price (refer to some of his previous posts) or the specifications don't meet your rather peculiar "needs" is an odd way to view doing business. I'd hate to be a retailer selling lights to customers who simply expect to play with them for a while and then return them for a refund without a damn good reason.

I'm not sure why this thread has deteriorated into such a passionate "my Zebra is better than your Armytek" fight anyway. Both brands have their merits and each user needs to select a product that best suits their own needs. That's why people take the time to do reviews and why we bother to read them.

On the subject of Customer Service... I think you need to go away and do a bit more research. Most of the reports on Armytek's CS have been quite favourable. Zebralight still has a bit to learn in this regard it seems. 

If you'd followed the development threads at CPFMarketplace you would know that the OP is not an Armytek shill. No further comment needed.

And finally, how can anyone who makes a blanket statement about how many lumens is low enough be taken seriously? What happened to each of us having our own needs and opinions? Funnily enough, those of us with poor or older eyes also use flashlights.


----------



## Knight_Light

Beacon of Light said:


> Not sure how using the single headstrap makes the Wizard easier to rotate in the holder, or are you saying to cut off one of the loops of the rubber holder????


 
I apologize for not clarifying. I am talking about the rubber holder. You do not have to cut one of the loops off (although that is a solution that is a lot prettier) just don’t slide it through the 2nd​ loop. It makes it a lot easier to rotate. It’s not the prettiest solution but it does work. I do not know how handy you are but the other solution is to take some of the silicone off with an abrasive.



Beacon of Light said:


> Someone posted in one of the Armytek threads about being careful of over tightening the tailcap for fear of not only stripping the threads, but cracking the pcb inside the light from pressure of the 18650.


 I have tried a lot of the oversized batteries and in my opinion you’re not going to be stripping any threads or cracking any pcb’s. There is room inside the tube for compression of the spring. But then again that is an individual choice so I leave that up to you.



Beacon of Light said:


> I only have the 1 strap as I hate headstaps with the top strap, as I never use them as I feel like a mental patient with a top strap and it just feels wrong. We will have to agree to disagree as I love the zebralights holders and headstraps. I love the elasticity and graphic design of the ZL straps as well as the buckles. The Armytek strap isn't as secure and tends to loosen up even with the loose end doubled over the buckle and tucked in. The Zebralight stays sized exactly where you size it, but it is easy to adjust on the fly.


 I agree that the graphics and the color scheme on the zebra light is better. Having said that I have never yet once had the head strap on the Armytek loosen up. They do not provide the best instructions for putting together the head strap maybe you did not assemble it correctly (not an accusation just a suggestion)? Now if you want to talk about the ideal head strap, in my opinion that is the one from Spark. It rotates and holds the headlamp perfectly and it has a top strap. The elastic is very good as well.


----------



## jonathanluu2

Outdoorsman5 said:


> +1
> 
> I think Armytek is doing a great job with their new lights, and I'm looking forward to what's "next" for them. They really need to state the output of their lights in terms of "Out the Front" or better yet "ANSI" like everyone else. They can continue to quote LED lumens so long as they also quote the ANSI or OTF lumens too.




For those new to this thread, Armytek made mention of how they measured their light output under one of their CPFMP threads here

Outdoorsman and ArcticHighlander, you do bring up a valid point that there are two different measuring methods for the lumen levels and everyone who values them should take that into account when looking into these lights.

Wow this thread got hot reallll quick. This is just a headlamp we're talkin about here. A hunk of metal with some fancy gadgetry added to it. There are bigger things in life folks. I'll leave it at that so as to avoid being condemned of shilling and come back when I have something constructive to add. 

Regards,

J.


----------



## Knight_Light

LEDburn said:


> 30 LED lumens are probably close to Zebralight's 21 lumens, right? So why are you continually going on and on and on about the Armytek being way more efficient? ZL will run for 50 hours, with a lower capacity cell. I haven't personally confirmed this but every high mode ran within 5% of spec and that I have personally tested.


 Now the difference visually can be substantial or negligible between 21 lm and 30 lm depending on the size of the head the way the optic is set up etc. Having said that going from 21 lm to 30 lm is about a 42% increase in light output (obviously this will not be the perceived difference but we are talking efficiency).

Now my statement was that Armytek is a lot more efficient in the higher lumen output ranges and less efficient in the lower. When you are designing drivers with efficiency in mind you have to concentrate on either the higher or lower output levels, Armytek chose the higher levels. So if you take a look at the Armytek 250 lm level it will run for 7 hours and 23 minutes the zebra light just over 4 hours (that is 80% longer runtime). We can go to the 550 lm level, that will run 3 hours on the Armytek it will run roughly 2 hours and 18 minutes on the zebra light (that is 30% longer runtime).



LEDburn said:


> Alot of the OP's posts seem like someone from marketing is posing as a genuine user albeit with major bias. All this mention of confirmed runtimes yet the lumen claims are yet to be verified and shady at best!


 So because I have not taken a light meter to confirm the lumen ratings but have actually spent the time to do runtime tests, that is shady (especially when I disclose that fact)? I respect your opinion, but my opinion is that it is pretty shady to discuss the product when you actually don’t have one in hand nor having ever held one in your hand. 

As far as accusations of me being from marketing you should really read some of my other posts before you make that statement. I have the H600 along with other zebra lights, I also happen to have Spark headlamps. So because I have enthusiasm for a product that I believe is the next evolutionary step in this class of lighting technology I have to be accused of being in marketing for Armytek. If you’ve read all of my disclaimers you would understand that the 1st part of the review is all factual and the other part is opinion driven based on my own experiences and knowledge base.

So before you criticize me for being a marketing person ask yourself what is it exactly that you contribute to the well-being of your fellow forum members on this thread. What I attempted to do was give people a glimpse of a product that didn’t even exist in the marketplace (so that people wouldn’t have to make blind purchases). Don’t forget when I started this particular thread there were no hands-on facts about the product. Now maybe there are people that don’t agree with my opinions of the product but I can guarantee you that the people that actually received this headlamp will not dispute the facts that I stated in the 1st part of the review despite the fact that some of them may disagree with my opinions.





LEDburn said:


> I may have missed it, but do you have a Wizard AND H600? If so, what do you think?


 I do and I am telling you it is better.



LEDburn said:


> For me I will wait until I hear some actual OTF numbers and I recommend others do the same. I will put my life on the line and say that ZL will be better performers, especially when their new circuit is implemented into the H600 much like SC600.


 Just curious do you know when this new circuit is going to be implemented? Like when the actual retail product will be available for sale, because that would be some really useful information.



LEDburn said:


> Anyone who says 0.5L is low enough obviously has poor eyes. I'm sorry but it really is that simple.


 Perceived light is not based on lumens alone. Depending on the optic used the size of the head etc. one light can look 3 times as bright as the other. So to make a statement like that is just pure ignorant not to mention being disrespectful of one’s opinion.


----------



## Outdoorsman5

Panties are all up in a wad.

Knight Light, I was at CPFMP when ArmyTek accepted your offer to review this light. I remember thinking, "dang I would have liked to have done that." This has probably turned into a lot more work than you thought it would, and now it's getting hairy. I've recently thought, "glad he's doing this instead of me." I think you have done an admirable job here, and have kept a cool head as well, even when being drilled (which is fair.) Now you've been attacked, and you continue to respond with dignity. Anyway, good job, and thank you for putting in the effort for the CPF community.

LEDburn, I've been in your shoes before. Just cool down a bit before resoponding. Keep it constructive and stop condemning other people's opinions...that never goes over well. If you think someone's opinion is wrong then let them be wrong. I'm sure you have some opinions that don't line up with everyone elses. Accusing Knight Light of working in disguise is crossing the line, and takes away from the good spirit found here at cpf. He's doing you and me a service, and his previous posts proves well enough to me that he is just a cpf fan like you & me. 

Carry on.


----------



## Knight_Light

Outdoorsman5 said:


> Panties are all up in a wad.
> 
> Knight Light, I was at CPFMP when ArmyTek accepted your offer to review this light. I remember thinking, "dang I would have liked to have done that." This has probably turned into a lot more work than you thought it would, and now it's getting hairy. I've recently thought, "glad he's doing this instead of me." I think you have done an admirable job here, and have kept a cool head as well, even when being drilled (which is fair.) Now you've been attacked, and you continue to respond with dignity. Anyway, good job, and thank you for putting in the effort for the CPF community.
> 
> LEDburn, I've been in your shoes before. Just cool down a bit before resoponding. Keep it constructive and stop condemning other people's opinions...that never goes over well. If you think someone's opinion is wrong then let them be wrong. I'm sure you have some opinions that don't line up with everyone elses. Accusing Knight Light of working in disguise is crossing the line, and takes away from the good spirit found here at cpf. He's doing you and me a service, and his previous posts proves well enough to me that he is just a cpf fan like you & me.
> 
> Carry on.


I appreciate your acknowledgments because my motives from the start were really to be helpful. As far as this review being hard work, I knew what I was getting myself into that’s why I designed this review as ongoing. So that I can do it in pieces with a mixture of facts and opinions, I also separated the fact section from the opinion section so that those that don’t subscribe to my point of view can still get an accurate impression of the product based strictly on fact. I did all of this because I know that to be excited about a certain product and being the 1st​ to actually buy the product can be an unnerving experience.

It’s also been rewarding to do this review because I was able to participate and contribute to the design process. Remember I was sent a prototype unit so some of the quirks in the UI as well as additional things I felt the product needed improvement on I worked with Armytek to improve the product for you guys. Some of my suggestions were implemented others were discarded. 

As far as your panty fetish there is not much I can help you with, there are probably other forums to discuss that. :nana:


----------



## ArcticHighlander

Knight Light, I too appreciate your hard work in reviewing this light. I bought one as a result. But I don't see how you can directly compare the Armytek LED lumen specs to the OTF lumen specs on the Zebralights as though both were providing equivalent information. LED lumen measurents will always be significantly higher than the OTF measurements. The Zebralight H600 specs are also based on a lessor 2900 mAh battery than the Armytek. Armytek does need to provide OTF lumen measurements and they did say they plan to do so soon when they explained how their measurements were made. I hope they do do so soon.


----------



## Lampyridae

I hope this test is going on, no matter what, because I'm looking forward to see 18650B's result on Turbo mode. Not because of few minutes more, but because I think temperature shoud rise enough to activate thermal protection. With 18650A testing in Turbo mode, Knight_light reached 55°C before Critical level dropped the light to firefly mode, but still did not activate thermal protection. Is thermal protection going to activate before it reaches 60°C, wihich is discharge limit for 18650B according to specs? Wizzard Pro already knows which battery is inside 'cause we told it...


----------



## Knight_Light

ArcticHighlander said:


> Knight Light, I too appreciate your hard work in reviewing this light. I bought one as a result. But I don't see how you can directly compare the Armytek LED lumen specs to the OTF lumen specs on the Zebralights as though both were providing equivalent information. LED lumen measurents will always be significantly higher than the OTF measurements. The Zebralight H600 specs are also based on a lessor 2900 mAh battery than the Armytek. Armytek does need to provide OTF lumen measurements and they did say they plan to do so soon when they explained how their measurements were made. I hope they do do so soon.


 
Thank you for acknowledging my efforts. What are your impressions of the light? If we put aside my opinions of the review and focus just on the 1st​ part of the review (which is factual in nature) is there anything that is not accurate or misleading?

I appreciate the OTF argument, I even agree with it. That is one of the reasons why I never made any claims to measured figures when it came to lumens and just stated that I was going with the manufacturer’s claims. There are other more technical based reviews that will follow that will give accurate numbers to this. My reviews are geared towards long-term use and long-term impressions of a particular product. Having said that, and having both lights the perceived respective output levels are fairly similar. Remember I made no comparisons in the 1st​ part of the review to any other light, all I did was state confirmed runtime tests at the specified levels (and my results differ from Armytek, keep that in mind).

As far as the differences between 2900 vs. 3100 battery it would probably be fairly negligible somewhere around 5%. You can definitely see the difference between 3100 and 3400 as only being 7.5 or so percent.


----------



## Lincoln1

Knight_Light said:


> Thank you for acknowledging my efforts. What are your impressions of the light? If we put aside my opinions of the review and focus just on the 1st​ part of the review (which is factual in nature) is there anything that is not accurate or misleading?
> 
> I appreciate the OTF argument, I even agree with it. That is one of the reasons why I never made any claims to measured figures when it came to lumens and just stated that I was going with the manufacturer’s claims. There are other more technical based reviews that will follow that will give accurate numbers to this. My reviews are geared towards long-term use and long-term impressions of a particular product. Having said that, and having both lights the perceived respective output levels are fairly similar. Remember I made no comparisons in the 1st​ part of the review to any other light, all I did was state confirmed runtime tests at the specified levels (and my results differ from Armytek, keep that in mind).
> 
> As far as the differences between 2900 vs. 3100 battery it would probably be fairly negligible somewhere around 5%. You can definitely see the difference between 3100 and 3400 as only being 7.5 or so percent.




Big thumbs up to you. First post on CPF but been a lurker for some time. As a complete noob to the world of flashlights I was in search of a headlamp and stumbled onto this thread. Your very thorough review of the Wizard was very helpful swaying me to my first purchase. I love it. As an electrician who spends many an hour crawling through attics and whatnot it is definitely be a big step up from the dollar store specials I'm used to. Just thought you should know your work is greatly appreciated. Ps I can see this could be addictive as i already wanna collect more lights.

cheers


----------



## spelunkik

Knight_Light, I also want to thank you for your very thorough review. Your review of the many positive qualities of the Wizard Pro, in conjunction with an exceptional sale they had during the 4th of July, caused me to buy one. I must admit that I did not realize Armytek was using theoretical values instead of OTF values, which is a small letdown for me. Nevertheless, it still seems to be a rock-solid light with an XM-L2 inside, so I am excited about my purchase, and excited to try it out! I am a hardcore caver, and I suspect the Wizard Pro will make an excellent addition to my headlamp arsenal. I already own a Zebralight H600w, so hopefully I'll be able to post some comparative beamshots next week for everyone. I realize it's a completely different tint, but perhaps pictures will still be useful for benchmarking beam characteristics. Thanks again Knight_Light!


----------



## Knight_Light

Lincoln1 said:


> Big thumbs up to you. First post on CPF but been a lurker for some time. As a complete noob to the world of flashlights I was in search of a headlamp and stumbled onto this thread. Your very thorough review of the Wizard was very helpful swaying me to my first purchase. I love it. As an electrician who spends many an hour crawling through attics and whatnot it is definitely be a big step up from the dollar store specials I'm used to. Just thought you should know your work is greatly appreciated. Ps I can see this could be addictive as i already wanna collect more lights.
> 
> cheers


Welcome to CPF and thank you for the support. I think the Armytek wizard Pro is a great 1st​ experience. Get yourself some good quality unprotected 18650 batteries along with a good charger like the VP1 from xtar and you are all set. And yes this hobby does get addicting, but any hobby that makes life a little bit easier or maybe even in some circumstances save a life is okay by me.


----------



## Knight_Light

spelunkik said:


> Knight_Light, I also want to thank you for your very thorough review. Your review of the many positive qualities of the Wizard Pro, in conjunction with an exceptional sale they had during the 4th of July, caused me to buy one. I must admit that I did not realize Armytek was using theoretical values instead of OTF values, which is a small letdown for me. Nevertheless, it still seems to be a rock-solid light with an XM-L2 inside, so I am excited about my purchase, and excited to try it out! I am a hardcore caver, and I suspect the Wizard Pro will make an excellent addition to my headlamp arsenal. I already own a Zebralight H600w, so hopefully I'll be able to post some comparative beamshots next week for everyone. I realize it's a completely different tint, but perhaps pictures will still be useful for benchmarking beam characteristics. Thanks again Knight_Light!


 
You’re very welcome. You are going to enjoy this headlamp when you take it caving. I’ve taken it on a few small caving excursions already. The 250 lm level is awesome as it gives you 8 hours of runtime and lights things up fairly nicely. I probably don’t have to tell you this but be prepared to come back with a filthy headband.  My suggestion is you actually order a 2nd​ headband if you can.

I know a lot of people think that I am not a fan of zebra light. In reality I own a H600 and think it is a good headlamp. For me the Armytek is really the next evolutionary step when it comes to headlamps in this market. I really would like to hear your thoughts on that subject as well since you now own both headlamps as well.


----------



## Dubois

I have a simple question that I'm not sure has been addressed. What is the point of a long term test of a prototype now that the production model has been launched? Surely it would be sensible for Knight Light to continue testing with the version that is available in the marketplace.

Or am I missing something?


----------



## Knight_Light

Dubois said:


> I have a simple question that I'm not sure has been addressed. What is the point of a long term test of a prototype now that the production model has been launched? Surely it would be sensible for Knight Light to continue testing with the version that is available in the marketplace.
> 
> Or am I missing something?


 You actually bring up a very valid point. Armytek is actually supposed to be sending me out the production lights to continue with the testing.


----------



## ArcticHighlander

Knight_Light said:


> Thank you for acknowledging my efforts. What are your impressions of the light? If we put aside my opinions of the review and focus just on the 1st​ part of the review (which is factual in nature) is there anything that is not accurate or misleading?
> 
> I appreciate the OTF argument, I even agree with it. That is one of the reasons why I never made any claims to measured figures when it came to lumens and just stated that I was going with the manufacturer’s claims. There are other more technical based reviews that will follow that will give accurate numbers to this. My reviews are geared towards long-term use and long-term impressions of a particular product. Having said that, and having both lights the perceived respective output levels are fairly similar. Remember I made no comparisons in the 1st​ part of the review to any other light, all I did was state confirmed runtime tests at the specified levels (and my results differ from Armytek, keep that in mind).
> 
> As far as the differences between 2900 vs. 3100 battery it would probably be fairly negligible somewhere around 5%. You can definitely see the difference between 3100 and 3400 as only being 7.5 or so percent.



I ordered during the 4th of July sale and haven't received it yet. I expect it to arrive next week. I thought I'd charge up 2 new NCR18650B 3400mAh on my VP1 and compare the Armytek directly with my H600. I won't be able to give any objective comparisons of brightness since I don't have any way to do so. I expect this Armytek to be a bit warmer and floodier with a shorter spot throw than the H600. Do you know when or if Armytek plans to have OTF values listed? I too originally thought that the specs Armytek provided were OTF and was disappointed when I discovered otherwise. It does make me wonder if they are being deliberately misleading since up to now they have not provided that information and continue to use just LED emitter specs in their sales listings (without saying that they are just emitter specs).


----------



## tony613

Thanks to Knight_Light's review and opinions, I decided to take advantage of the July 4th additional reduction and ordered the Wizard Pro (70:120). Like some others, I too own, and _very_ much like, the Zebralight H600w and was anticipating comparing the two lights. The shipping to the east coast of the US from China was very fast and my light arrived today, July 11th, ordered on July 5th. Unfortunately I only received the light; the 18650 battery and associated charger were missing from the shipment. I've already contacted armyTek's customer service so I'll be able to report first hand how well they resolve issues. 

Like several others I assumed that armyTek's specs were OTF when I purchased so I was a little disappointed to find out otherwise.

The shipping company used was FedEX. Another lesson learned, at least in my case, was that I needed to sign for the package. I tracked the package using the provided tracking number but I wasn't aware that a signature was required so the package was not left at my door (I picked it up myself after work). I don't have a problem with this but thought I'd give a heads up to others so that they can avoid the same experience. 

As far as some early impressions of the two lights side by side:

I've swapped (many times) the only 18650 battery I have available, an EagleTac 3100mAh, between the two lights and did some comparisons. 

The beam profile of the Wizard is noticeably more "floody", and the H600w has a more noticeable hot spot. Because I only have one battery available I'm not going to comment on perceived brightness between the two lights. I'd prefer to have both of them powered simultaneously before commenting on that aspect (will probably swap batteries back and forth for those tests to see if there is a perceived difference). Even then I will not have any way to accurately measure the brightness; it will only be perception, and possibly photos. 

One thing I notice about build is that the Wizard is more substantial than the H600w. This became apparent when doing the many swaps of the battery - there is more heft in the Wizard, but it is only slightly heavier. In winter I run with the H600w on my head so time will tell if the added weight is a distraction - gut reaction is I do not believe that it will be too heavy for my use.

The switch on my Wizard is much stiffer and requires a good deal more pressure than the H600w. I am used to and like the switch of the H600w but for full disclosure must also say that it has been accidentally activated in my pocket on multiple occasions - sometimes on high - and I definitely know it's on when my upper thigh begins to cook. I haven't carried the Wizard around yet but my impression is I don't believe accidental activation will happen in my pocket as often, if at all. I'm aware they can both be locked out from the tail cap, and that the armyTek has the feature that if the button is pressed continually, it will cycle through its modes and then stay off in case of accidental activation, and I verified this. 

While running both at their highest setting for taking some photos, the H600w became noticeably warm to hot (by design, and no surprise), but was on for less than 3 minutes (the time at which my H600w automatically step down). With the same general use, the armyTek got slightly warm at the head but definitely not as warm as the H600w. Note this was definitely not a scientific test, nor was a timer used. It was an observation made while I simply went about swapping the battery, turning the lights on, shining them around, and taking a few photos - just putting the lights through their paces.

When I have multiple batteries available I'll try to take comparison photos and post the results, and I'll also report on armyTek's customer service. Fingers crossed on that one.


----------



## toysareforboys

tony613 said:


> Unfortunately I only received the light; the 18650 battery and associated charger were missing from the shipment. I've already contacted armyTek's customer service so I'll be able to report first hand how well they resolve issues.
> 
> The shipping company used was FedEX.


Let me know what they say, I also didn't receive the battery or charger.

Did you have to pay any customs fee's to FedEx when you picked up your package?

-Jamie M.


----------



## tony613

toysareforboys said:


> Let me know what they say, I also didn't receive the battery or charger.
> 
> Did you have to pay any customs fee's to FedEx when you picked up your package?
> 
> -Jamie M.



Sure, I will definitely post how the battery and charger issue goes. And no, thankfully no customs fees, but again I'm in the US, and I see you are in Canada so ...


----------



## ArcticHighlander

toysareforboys said:


> Let me know what they say, I also didn't receive the battery or charger
> -Jamie M.


You had to be really careful when placing your order. If you just clicked on 'Add to Cart' at the top of the page you were ordering the light without the freebee battery and charger. You had to scroll way down to the bottom of the page past the freebees where it said 'Add all' (or something similar). It was very confusing (deliberately or not). At first I hit the top button and was wondering why I didn't see any indication that the battery & charger were being included. I deleted the order and went back to the page and tried again and the same thing happened. Then deleted order again and carefully examined the entire page and hit the 'Add all to cart' at the bottom. This time there was an indication that additional items were part of the order and if you clicked on it it showed the battery and charger were added in.


----------



## ArcticHighlander

By the way this is what Armytek said in their CP marketplace forum on 4/27/13 (POST #5): "In the near future we plan to write both LED/OTF lumens. We do not like ANSI lumens." That was about 2 & 1/2 months ago. I've posted there asking when/if they still plan to provide OTF specs.


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## Knight_Light

ArcticHighlander said:


> I ordered during the 4th of July sale and haven't received it yet. I expect it to arrive next week. I thought I'd charge up 2 new NCR18650B 3400mAh on my VP1 and compare the Armytek directly with my H600. I won't be able to give any objective comparisons of brightness since I don't have any way to do so. I expect this Armytek to be a bit warmer and floodier with a shorter spot throw than the H600. Do you know when or if Armytek plans to have OTF values listed? I too originally thought that the specs Armytek provided were OTF and was disappointed when I discovered otherwise. It does make me wonder if they are being deliberately misleading since up to now they have not provided that information and continue to use just LED emitter specs in their sales listings (without saying that they are just emitter specs).


I think you will find your predictions about the 2 lights to be quite accurate. As far as the whole OTF subject I never really had those discussions with them so I don’t know what where and when concerning the subject. To be honest with you OTF is kind of gimmicky as well. And if you notice a lot of manufacturers will put their own output ratings along with ANSI ratings which is even more confusing to the uneducated. Let’s face it if we really want a standardized way of somehow judging then lux @ 1 m and 25 m (or some other agreed-upon figure) would be the way to go, good luck trying to get companies on board with that one.


----------



## Knight_Light

tony613 said:


> One thing I notice about build is that the Wizard is more substantial than the H600w. This became apparent when doing the many swaps of the battery - there is more heft in the Wizard, but it is only slightly heavier. In winter I run with the H600w on my head so time will tell if the added weight is a distraction - gut reaction is I do not believe that it will be too heavy for my use.


 I do on occasion run on the trails and I can tell you that the Wizard functions fairly well in that capacity. I don’t know your set up for the H600 but if you are not using a top strap the Wizard will perform better if you are using a modified head strap with a top strap on the H600 then they are about equal in terms of bounce.




tony613 said:


> While running both at their highest setting for taking some photos, the H600w became noticeably warm to hot (by design, and no surprise), but was on for less than 3 minutes (the time at which my H600w automatically step down). With the same general use, the armyTek got slightly warm at the head but definitely not as warm as the H600w. Note this was definitely not a scientific test, nor was a timer used. It was an observation made while I simply went about swapping the battery, turning the lights on, shining them around, and taking a few photos - just putting the lights through their paces.


 The Armytek definitely dissipates heat a lot better. Having said that after about 10 minutes on Turbo the Armytek gets very hot, so be careful.



tony613 said:


> When I have multiple batteries available I'll try to take comparison photos and post the results, and I'll also report on armyTek's customer service. Fingers crossed on that one.


 If I may make a suggestion, I would get the unprotected cells from fasttech.com (FASTTECH SKU 1141100) $15 for 2 batteries delivered. These are Panasonic NCR18650B 3400 mAh.


----------



## InTheDark

Knight_Light said:


> I think you will find your predictions about the 2 lights to be quite accurate. As far as the whole OTF subject I never really had those discussions with them so I don’t know what where and when concerning the subject. To be honest with you OTF is kind of gimmicky as well. And if you notice a lot of manufacturers will put their own output ratings along with ANSI ratings which is even more confusing to the uneducated. Let’s face it if we really want a standardized way of somehow judging then lux @ 1 m and 25 m (or some other agreed-upon figure) would be the way to go, good luck trying to get companies on board with that one.



Exactly. While it would be nice to have some sort of standard method of testing for all lights, for all practical purposes it's really not that important. I'm betting most people wouldn't be able to tell the difference between 750 and 1000 lumens anyway. There are other factors that contribute to the perceived brightness that the numbers themselves won't tell the whole story. That's why hands-on reviews such as this one are much more valuable than manufacturer spec sheets. 

It's funny how almost every hobby eventually degrades into a numbers contest, it's the flashlight equivalent of bench racing. For those not familiar with the term, it's when people (seems to be mostly teenagers on the net who have never driven) argue over which car is the better/fastest based on hp, hp/weight ratio, or any other type of random parameter. In the photography world they're called measurebators, those people who have memorized the specs of every camera and why theirs is better, but who can't take a decent picture. When it comes down to real world use, all these numbers are just a rough baseline for comparison.

I'm still trying to comprehend why some people are buying 700+ lumen lights and griping about the sub-lumen light levels. If it's not low enough put some electrical tape over the lens and use the battery indicator light, or at that point, just turn off the light.


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## markr6

InTheDark said:


> Exactly. While it would be nice to have some sort of standard method of testing for all lights, for all practical purposes it's really not that important. I'm betting most people wouldn't be able to tell the difference between 750 and 1000 lumens anyway. There are other factors that contribute to the perceived brightness that the numbers themselves won't tell the whole story. That's why hands-on reviews such as this one are much more valuable than manufacturer spec sheets.
> 
> It's funny how almost every hobby eventually degrades into a numbers contest, it's the flashlight equivalent of bench racing. For those not familiar with the term, it's when people (seems to be mostly teenagers on the net who have never driven) argue over which car is the better/fastest based on hp, hp/weight ratio, or any other type of random parameter. In the photography world they're called measurebators, those people who have memorized the specs of every camera and why theirs is better, but who can't take a decent picture. When it comes down to real world use, all these numbers are just a rough baseline for comparison.
> 
> I'm still trying to comprehend why some people are buying 700+ lumen lights and griping about the sub-lumen light levels. If it's not low enough put some electrical tape over the lens and use the battery indicator light, or at that point, just turn off the light.



I like it!!


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## Knight_Light

InTheDark said:


> Exactly. While it would be nice to have some sort of standard method of testing for all lights, for all practical purposes it's really not that important. I'm betting most people wouldn't be able to tell the difference between 750 and 1000 lumens anyway. There are other factors that contribute to the perceived brightness that the numbers themselves won't tell the whole story. That's why hands-on reviews such as this one are much more valuable than manufacturer spec sheets.


 
You are 100% correct when you say that most people will not be able to tell the difference between 750 lm and 1000 lm if the lights are randomized and switched on one at a time (as brightness is perceived on a nonlinear level). But if you have the same 2 identical lights and one is set to a mode of 750 lm and the other one is also turned on but at 1000 lm most people will be able to tell which one is brighter.



InTheDark said:


> It's funny how almost every hobby eventually degrades into a numbers contest, it's the flashlight equivalent of bench racing. For those not familiar with the term, it's when people (seems to be mostly teenagers on the net who have never driven) argue over which car is the better/fastest based on hp, hp/weight ratio, or any other type of random parameter. In the photography world they're called measurebators, those people who have memorized the specs of every camera and why theirs is better, but who can't take a decent picture. When it comes down to real world use, all these numbers are just a rough baseline for comparison.


 You really hit it on the head with this. And there are so many more examples of this in every facet of life.



InTheDark said:


> I'm still trying to comprehend why some people are buying 700+ lumen lights and griping about the sub-lumen light levels. If it's not low enough put some electrical tape over the lens and use the battery indicator light, or at that point, just turn off the light.


 This statement I don’t know if I agree with. I think if you can have your cake and eat it, why not. I mean why wouldn’t you want to have a 700+ lumen light? Most of the time you don’t need it but for the 1% time that you may, even if it’s to impress your friends it’s nice to have.

And even though I still don’t understand how some people navigate the outdoors with sub lumen levels I still think they are nice to have. For instance I always like to leave my lights on all the time when I am doing outdoor activities, it makes it easier to find the light if you drop it into a pile of leaves or even when looking for it in your backpack. 

Having said that, when I wake up after a long sleep the .5lm on the Armytek is bright enough to do things around the house, take the same light into an outdoor environment and to me it is almost useless for doing anything except for the earlier stated purpose of being utilized as a hybrid nightlight/beacon to locate the light. Nonetheless I won’t buy a light for the outdoors that doesn’t have a level less than 2 lm specifically for this purpose.


----------



## Lampyridae

What is that black thing between TIR optics and bezel? Is it O-ring used for sealing or what?


----------



## spelunkik

Here is a page that compares the Wizard Pro Limited Edition and Zebralight's SC600MKII:
http://www.taschenlampen-forum.de/armytek/26508-armytek-wizard-pro-limited-edition-beamshots.html

I think this is a great comparison, because this pits Zebralight's best single XM-L reflector light against Armytek's similarly tinted XM-L TIR headlamp. Obviously the SC600MKII can throw farther, but I think the Wizard Pro does a great job of compromising between throw and flood.

As I mentioned previously, my primary caving light is a Zebralight H600w. While it may be a phenomenal caving light, I have always wished there wasn't such a sharp contrast between light and dark past (greater than) the spill zone of 80°. I never liked this sharp border because it always made me feel like I had tunnel vision. I've grown to accept this, but I have never fully acclimated to it.


----------



## InTheDark

Knight_Light said:


> You are 100% correct when you say that most people will not be able to tell the difference between 750 lm and 1000 lm if the lights are randomized and switched on one at a time (as brightness is perceived on a linear level). But if you have the same 2 identical lights and one is set to a mode of 750 lm and the other one is also turned on but at 1000 lm most people will be able to tell which one is brighter.



Yes, I should clarify they _might_ be able to tell the difference in a direct head to head comparison, *all else being equal*. But I was mainly referring to real world usage. Unless someone plans on carrying around their 700 lumen light, just so they can show everyone how their 1000 lumen light is brighter, I don't see it as being very important. Now put in different optics or reflectors, change the tint color, etc, and all bets are off, because most people will perceive a brighter/whiter hotspot as being "more light". Also, I'm not so sure brightness is percieved on a linear level, from what I understand it's more logrithmic which would make the difference between these two seem even smaller.



Knight_Light said:


> This statement I don’t know if I agree with. I think if you can have your cake and eat it, why not. I mean why wouldn’t you want to have a 700+ lumen light? Most of the time you don’t need it but for the 1% time that you may, even if it’s to impress your friends it’s nice to have.
> 
> And even though I still don’t understand how some people navigate the outdoors with sub lumen levels I still think they are nice to have. For instance I always like to leave my lights on all the time when I am doing outdoor activities, it makes it easier to find the light if you drop it into a pile of leaves or even when looking for it in your backpack.
> 
> Having said that, when I wake up after a long sleep the .5lm on the Armytek is bright enough to do things around the house, take the same light into an outdoor environment and to me it is almost useless for doing anything except for the earlier stated purpose of being utilized as a hybrid nightlight/beacon to locate the light. Nonetheless I won’t buy a light for the outdoors that doesn’t have a level less than 2 lm specifically for this purpose.



I think you misunderstood, I agree with you 100%, which is why I've been following your review in the first place. I'd love a 700 lumen light. If I could get a 10,000 lumen light I'd get it, the brighter the better. I was referring to the people that buy these high power lights and complaining that the sub lumen levels aren't low enough. It's like buying a Ferrari and complaining that it doesn't go slow enough to walk your arthritic dog from the car. When people are splitting hairs between 0.5 lumens, 1.4 lumens, or 2.795734943 lumens it gets a little ridiculous. I'm sure most of us can remember the time when you had only 2 choices in light level. On or off. The fact that I can even choose different levels keeps me happy enough.

EDIT: Forgot to add, I'd like to echo some of the other comments and thank you for the review. Even though I don't spend as much time on here as I used to, I still think CPF is a valuable resource specifically for the reviews such as these. I came here looking to find a replacement for my Spark ST6, and the Armytek looked promising. I'm still debating because even though I love all the features, the beam profile isn't really what I prefer.


----------



## bradthebold

My light just won't turn on sometimes. I'll go to use it, and nothing happens when I click or hold the button. Tightening the tailcap doesn't do anything. I have to unscrew the tailcap half way and least and screw it back on to get the light to work.

Also, when I put it in turbo mode now, it will blink 3 times and flash the warning signal that the voltage is too low. I thought this only came on at 3.1V? The voltage indicator in the light says 3.5V. It doesn't do it in any other mode.


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## tony613

bradthebold said:


> My light just won't turn on sometimes. I'll go to use it, and nothing happens when I click or hold the button. Tightening the tailcap doesn't do anything. I have to unscrew the tailcap half way and least and screw it back on to get the light to work.
> 
> Also, when I put it in turbo mode now, it will blink 3 times and flash the warning signal that the voltage is too low. I thought this only came on at 3.1V? The voltage indicator in the light says 3.5V. It doesn't do it in any other mode.



I've had lights act strangely when batteries were not fully charged, and I've also read several threads with the similar symptoms. As a suggestion, perhaps you can try charging your battery completely and see how you do. I've also read threads where non-high quality batteries caused erratic behavior. I'm not saying you have a "cheap" battery; that is just for your information.

With respect to the light not turning on, when you press the switch, does the red led in the switch illuminate, or is it too staying dark? And when the light does illuminate, does the switch illuminate with it when depressed? Understanding the switch's behavior may shed some light on the problem, if you'll pardon the pun.


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## toysareforboys

bradthebold said:


> Also, when I put it in turbo mode now, it will blink 3 times and flash the warning signal that the voltage is too low.





tony613 said:


> where non-high quality batteries caused erratic behavior.


This. Which battery are you using? How old is it? What charger are you using?

-Jamie M.


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## Trevtrain

bradthebold said:


> My light just won't turn on sometimes. I'll go to use it, and nothing happens when I click or hold the button. Tightening the tailcap doesn't do anything. I have to unscrew the tailcap half way and least and screw it back on to get the light to work.
> 
> Also, when I put it in turbo mode now, it will blink 3 times and flash the warning signal that the voltage is too low. I thought this only came on at 3.1V? The voltage indicator in the light says 3.5V. It doesn't do it in any other mode.



I haven't gotten mine yet but I'm informed it has reached DHL in HK. So the following brief comments are just suggestions, not yet verified on "in the hands" use. 

Regardless of voltage indicators, 3.5V is pretty low for a Li-Ion. Does it measure this voltage under load (like the predator) or when resting?. Does it measure it at the output level you are using?

It sounds like your battery might simply be low. Is it a good quality cell such as a Panasonic? Can you try the same thing with a quality, fully-charged cell?


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## bradthebold

The battery is the 3100mah unprotected Panasonic it came with, so quality shouldn't be an issue. When it arrived, the light's voltage meter said 3.6V and my multimeter said 3.61V. I left my multimeter on for a few days and the battery died, so I'm not sure what that would say now.

I have not charged the battery yet. The only charger I have is the cheap UltraFire one it came with and it has a European plug cable. I'm waiting to see when if the new Xtar chargers comes out this month.

The built in voltage indicator does depend on mode though. On mode one ts shows 3.5V but on mode four is only shows 3.4V.

Normally when the light turns on, the switch turns red while you click it. When it refuses to turn on, the switch doesn't show any color. Nothing happens.


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## tony613

bradthebold said:


> The battery is the 3100mah unprotected Panasonic it came with, so quality shouldn't be an issue. When it arrived, the light's voltage meter said 3.6V and my multimeter said 3.61V. I left my multimeter on for a few days and the battery died, so I'm not sure what that would say now.
> 
> I have not charged the battery yet. The only charger I have is the cheap UltraFire one it came with and it has a European plug cable. I'm waiting to see when if the new Xtar chargers comes out this month.
> 
> The built in voltage indicator does depend on mode though. On mode one ts shows 3.5V but on mode four is only shows 3.4V.
> 
> Normally when the light turns on, the switch turns red while you click it. *When it refuses to turn on, the switch doesn't show any color. Nothing happens*.



In my humble opinion, I think your main problem is that the battery needs charging. The light will probably work just fine when you get your charger, but I know how tough the wait will be.


----------



## Knight_Light

spelunkik said:


> Here is a page that compares the Wizard Pro Limited Edition and Zebralight's SC600MKII:
> http://www.taschenlampen-forum.de/armytek/26508-armytek-wizard-pro-limited-edition-beamshots.html
> 
> I think this is a great comparison, because this pits Zebralight's best single XM-L reflector light against Armytek's similarly tinted XM-L TIR headlamp. Obviously the SC600MKII can throw farther, but I think the Wizard Pro does a great job of compromising between throw and flood.


 
These are great beam shots for both lights and really do justice to both of them. Thank you for sharing that with us.

The Zebralight's SC600MKII is an awesome little light. I really am a huge fan of this particular light but I think that if it was turned into the next version of the headlamp that zebra light put out in the next rendition of H600 the strengths of this particular light would be somewhat hampered by the shrunk down size of the reflector (necessary to make it into a headlamp) while its weaknesses would only be more prevalent.



spelunkik said:


> As I mentioned previously, my primary caving light is a Zebralight H600w. While it may be a phenomenal caving light, I have always wished there wasn't such a sharp contrast between light and dark past (greater than) the spill zone of 80°. I never liked this sharp border because it always made me feel like I had tunnel vision. I've grown to accept this, but I have never fully acclimated to it.


 I know exactly what you are saying and that’s why in my opinion the H600 makes a better hiking headlamp then it does a caving light. You’re going to love going caving with the Armytek wizard.


----------



## Knight_Light

InTheDark said:


> Yes, I should clarify they might be able to tell the difference in a direct head to head comparison, all else being equal. But I was mainly referring to real world usage. Unless someone plans on carrying around their 700 lumen light, just so they can show everyone how their 1000 lumen light is brighter, I don't see it as being very important. Now put in different optics or reflectors, change the tint color, etc, and all bets are off, because most people will perceive a brighter/whiter hotspot as being "more light". Also, I'm not so sure brightness is percieved on a linear level, from what I understand it's more logrithmic which would make the difference between these two seem even smaller.


 You are totally correct. Light perception is logarithmic. I meant to say nonlinear (yay for AutoCorrect). Good catch and I changed my post. 



InTheDark said:


> I think you misunderstood, I agree with you 100%, which is why I've been following your review in the first place. I'd love a 700 lumen light. If I could get a 10,000 lumen light I'd get it, the brighter the better. I was referring to the people that buy these high power lights and complaining that the sub lumen levels aren't low enough. It's like buying a Ferrari and complaining that it doesn't go slow enough to walk your arthritic dog from the car. When people are splitting hairs between 0.5 lumens, 1.4 lumens, or 2.795734943 lumens it gets a little ridiculous. I'm sure most of us can remember the time when you had only 2 choices in light level. On or off. The fact that I can even choose different levels keeps me happy enough.


 I agree that complaining about .5 lumens vs .2 lumen or whatever, to me sounds trifling but on the other hand any outdoor light I have has to have a level that’s 2 lumen or less because to me that level is critical to the way I use the light. What’s even more ridiculous is people that will complain about a particular level when they never had hands-on experience with that particular light. Like I stated before 2 lm on one light might look 3 times as bright as on another.



InTheDark said:


> EDIT: Forgot to add, I'd like to echo some of the other comments and thank you for the review. Even though I don't spend as much time on here as I used to, I still think CPF is a valuable resource specifically for the reviews such as these. I came here looking to find a replacement for my Spark ST6, and the Armytek looked promising. I'm still debating because even though I love all the features, the beam profile isn't really what I prefer.


 You are welcome and thank you for the acknowledgment. Don’t get me started on the Spark headlamps (I am a huge fan).


----------



## bradthebold

bradthebold said:


> The battery is the 3100mah unprotected Panasonic it came with, so quality shouldn't be an issue. When it arrived, the light's voltage meter said 3.6V and my multimeter said 3.61V. I left my multimeter on for a few days and the battery died, so I'm not sure what that would say now.
> 
> I have not charged the battery yet. The only charger I have is the cheap UltraFire one it came with and it has a European plug cable. I'm waiting to see when if the new Xtar chargers comes out this month.
> 
> The built in voltage indicator does depend on mode though. On mode one ts shows 3.5V but on mode four is only shows 3.4V.
> 
> Normally when the light turns on, the switch turns red while you click it. When it refuses to turn on, the switch doesn't show any color. Nothing happens.



It just happened again. I was using it when I wrote my last comment, now it won't do anything when I try to turn it on. No light switch or response in any way. I had to undo it 2 full turns and back before it would work again. Less wouldn't fix it.


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## tony613

I came across something in the instructions of which I was not aware. Under the "Warning" section, the following are stated:

1. Always follow the instructions from this manual and recommendations on battery usage.
...
8. Be careful while using rechargeable batteries as Armytek flashlights are designed to consume all the available battery power and don't protect batteries from over discharge.

​​(or at least that is what my directions state). I know the output decreases as temperature rises and voltage decreases, but being accustomed to the Zebralight H600w's low voltage cutoff, I was glad I actually read the manual. I'm not saying this is a problem, just pointing it out for others that may not have realized this behavior.


----------



## Knight_Light

bradthebold said:


> The battery is the 3100mah unprotected Panasonic it came with, so quality shouldn't be an issue. When it arrived, the light's voltage meter said 3.6V and my multimeter said 3.61V. I left my multimeter on for a few days and the battery died, so I'm not sure what that would say now.
> 
> I have not charged the battery yet. The only charger I have is the cheap UltraFire one it came with and it has a European plug cable. I'm waiting to see when if the new Xtar chargers comes out this month.
> 
> The built in voltage indicator does depend on mode though. On mode one ts shows 3.5V but on mode four is only shows 3.4V.
> 
> Normally when the light turns on, the switch turns red while you click it. When it refuses to turn on, the switch doesn't show any color. Nothing happens.


Let me make a few brief comments on your situation that maybe will help you and save some grief.


Unless you have a defective battery itself, the battery that came with the wizard Pro is an awesome battery.
The charger that you received will work but in my opinion is junk so get yourself a decent charger.
During my runtime tests the light would function perfectly down to slightly under 3V.(measured on a DMM). It would then drop down to firefly mode 2 and still continue to function.
The status LED should come on when pressed even if the voltage is low on the battery.
It sounds to me that you might have a defective unit and I would contact Armytek and see what they suggest.


----------



## canibalplatipus

I had the same issue as brad. only happened once. My battery shows 4 volts with the voltage check on the wizard. 

With the ten year warrenty I'm not too worried if it happens again ill contact armytek 

Sent from my SGH-I747M using Tapatalk 2


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## Knight_Light

tony613 said:


> I came across something in the instructions of which I was not aware. Under the "Warning" section, the following are stated:
> 
> 1. Always follow the instructions from this manual and recommendations on battery usage.
> ...
> 8. Be careful while using rechargeable batteries as Armytek flashlights are designed to consume all the available battery power and don't protect batteries from over discharge.
> 
> (or at least that is what my directions state). I know the output decreases as temperature rises and voltage decreases, but being accustomed to the Zebralight H600w's low voltage cutoff, I was glad I actually read the manual. I'm not saying this is a problem, just pointing it out for others that may not have realized this behavior.


 The manual definitely says that but I think they just copied the warnings from a different product. Because if you read above that it tells you not to mix batteries, implying a multi-cell light. And if you read the 1st​ part of the manual it specifically tells you how to select unprotected batteries and if I am not mistaken the light will cut off at 2.5 V (although I have not tested that). I can definitely tell you that under just 3 V. the light drops down to firefly mode 2 (and that is one of the reasons why I haven’t tested the cutoff on the light yet as I have not had the time to monitor this process).


----------



## tony613

Knight_Light said:


> The manual definitely says that but I think they just copied the warnings from a different product. Because if you read above that it tells you not to mix batteries, implying a multi-cell light. And if you read the 1st​ part of the manual it specifically tells you how to select unprotected batteries and if I am not mistaken the light will cut off at 2.5 V (although I have not tested that). I can definitely tell you that under just 3 V. the light drops down to firefly mode 2 (and that is one of the reasons why I haven’t tested the cutoff on the light yet as I have not had the time to monitor this process).



Before my last post I went back and read through your tests to try and sort out what was right and wrong, and I was curious about that statement being a copy and paste error. Plus what I didn't ask in my previous post was if the light doesn't cut off, what is the benefit of setting the type of battery in the first place? It's very unlikely that I personally would ever run it down past the point where the output steps down but because I couldn't find anywhere in the manual that directly contradicted point number 8 above I thought I'd point it out for discussion. I also noticed that you concluded your tests manually, after step down but before cutoff, so we currently don't have a definitive answer (that is not a knock on your tests or review by any means, just a data point).

I've referred to your original post a few times to answer questions I've had and must say I've also got to give you credit, not only for the work you've done in the non-biased review, but also for your candid but restrained responses to opinions. It's obvious you like the light (with valid reason), but I believe you've kept an open mind and have been fair. Thus far, job well done.


----------



## Knight_Light

tony613 said:


> Before my last post I went back and read through your tests to try and sort out what was right and wrong, and I was curious about that statement being a copy and paste error. Plus what I didn't ask in my previous post was if the light doesn't cut off, what is the benefit of setting the type of battery in the first place? It's very unlikely that I personally would ever run it down past the point where the output steps down but because I couldn't find anywhere in the manual that directly contradicted point number 8 above I thought I'd point it out for discussion. I also noticed that you concluded your tests manually, after step down but before cutoff, so we currently don't have a definitive answer (that is not a knock on your tests or review by any means, just a data point).


 
I think what you pointed out was definitely good and relevant I just think it’s a mistake in the manual as I’ve seen them make mistakes in the manual before.

I concluded my tests manually because it would drop down to firefly mode 2 (which by the way I think is awesome as it doesn’t leave you hanging in the dark) and to continue from that point forward is going to take some time. So 1st​ I have to figure out theoretically how much runtime I would have on that level based on battery capacity and then time the test so that I can watch the conclusion.



tony613 said:


> I've referred to your original post a few times to answer questions I've had and must say I've also got to give you credit, not only for the work you've done in the non-biased review, but also for your candid but restrained responses to opinions. It's obvious you like the light (with valid reason), but I believe you've kept an open mind and have been fair. Thus far, job well done.


 Thank you for that. I wanted to do a different style of review. I wanted to separate fact from opinion while at the same time giving the reader as much as possible a hands-on experience with the product through reading the review and answering questions. I realized that the only way to do that was to make the 1st​ portion purely fact and the rest of the review opinion and hands-on experience driven. This way people that don’t agree with my opinions can still benefit from the 1st​ part of the review and those that do agree with my opinions can get to see the product in greater depth and functionality.


----------



## Lampyridae

Can anyone who has WPro comment, please. Does yours look like this?

http://imageupload.co.uk/files/33c5fpk97877foyhyh5q.jpg

from another angle:

http://imageupload.co.uk/files/t67rrct5s3p5b77rnkxz.jpg

Is it part of seal (O-ring?) comming out? I'm concerned about potential water leak, because I'm not sure if any of it is left between bezel and TIR at that particular spot...


----------



## tony613

I have yet to receive any responses to my emails regarding the missing battery and charger from my July 4th promotion purchase. Note my invoice clearly states, "LED flashlight with accessories sets (Wizard Pro)". I'm curious what other invoices say. The battery and the promotion were the main reasons I chose to purchase at this time. 

My first email to "Armytek Optoelectronics Inc., Canada" <[email protected]> was sent on Thursday, July 11, and a second was sent the day after (I tried to beat the weekend). I realize they are probably closed for the weekend now so it's not likely I'll be hearing from them for a couple more days. 

Has anyone, besides Knight_Light of course, that has contacted their service received any responses?

Lampyridae,

If you would repost your pictures, I'll compare my light to yours. I see that you just recently joined so in case you don't know, you have to use an external site (flickr, etc. - use the "Go Advanced" option and select "Insert Image" when posting). You can't just copy and paste the photos into your forum post - begging your pardon if you already knew this.

Knight_Light,



> I concluded my tests manually because it would drop down to firefly mode 2 (which by the way I think is awesome as it doesn’t leave you hanging in the dark) and to continue from that point forward is going to take some time. So 1st​ I have to figure out theoretically how much runtime I would have on that level based on battery capacity and then time the test so that I can watch the conclusion.



I definitely agree about not leaving you in the dark, and I understood how much time that test is likely to take. From a previous post, since you asked Armytek if the battery selection is remembered through battery changes (the answer was yes), perhaps you can ask about cutoff as well. I'd also be interested in seeing your real world results.


----------



## Lampyridae

Tony, thanks for tip, I just posted some links...


----------



## bradthebold

tony613 said:


> I have yet to receive any responses to my emails regarding the missing battery and charger from my July 4th promotion purchase. Note my invoice clearly states, "LED flashlight with accessories sets (Wizard Pro)". I'm curious what other invoices say. The battery and the promotion were the main reasons I chose to purchase at this time.
> 
> My first email to "Armytek Optoelectronics Inc., Canada" <[email protected]> was sent on Thursday, July 11, and a second was sent the day after (I tried to beat the weekend). I realize they are probably closed for the weekend now so it's not likely I'll be hearing from them for a couple more days.
> 
> Has anyone, besides Knight_Light of course, that has contacted their service received any responses?



My emailed invoice lists all 3 items separately. 

ProductQuantityUnit priceSubtotalArmytek Wizard Pro XM-L2.Code: 271$99.95*$99.95*Buy together:

ProductAmountUnit priceSubtotalBattery Charger WF139 Li-Ion with car-adapter.Code: 091$0.00$0.00Panasonic NCR18650 Li-Ion 3100mAh. Rechargeable.Code: 121$0.00$0.00 




They are certainly not fast with their emails though. They just completely ignored the first question I sent them. When I asked about the promotion and receiving a European cable for my charger, I emailed them on a Thursday and got a response on a Monday. We've been emailing back and forth since then and it takes 1-2 full days before I'll get a response back.


----------



## bradthebold

Also, I stole a battery from a smoke detector and my DMM says 3.49V on the battery. Is that really that low? How low should I be using it to? I figured the warning level on the light would a good time to recharge. Do you really think 3.49V should cause the light to showing it's at warning level and cause it not to work sometimes?

I found a European adapter, so I'll charge the battery in the Ultrafire charger up to ~4.1V and see if the issues continue.


----------



## Knight_Light

Lampyridae said:


> Can anyone who has WPro comment, please. Does yours look like this?
> 
> http://imageupload.co.uk/files/33c5fpk97877foyhyh5q.jpg
> 
> from another angle:
> 
> http://imageupload.co.uk/files/t67rrct5s3p5b77rnkxz.jpg
> 
> Is it part of seal (O-ring?) comming out? I'm concerned about potential water leak, because I'm not sure if any of it is left between bezel and TIR at that particular spot...


 Mine does not look like that.


----------



## Knight_Light

tony613 said:


> Has anyone, besides Knight_Light of course, that has contacted their service received any responses?


 If it makes you feel any better they don’t always respond to me promptly either, but they do always respond. 



tony613 said:


> Knight_Light,
> 
> I definitely agree about not leaving you in the dark, and I understood how much time that test is likely to take. From a previous post, since you asked Armytek if the battery selection is remembered through battery changes (the answer was yes), perhaps you can ask about cutoff as well. I'd also be interested in seeing your real world results.


 
Instead of asking them, I am just eventually going to run the tests to find out. I need this information for my peace of mind as well. I have a whole bunch of other tests that I have planned for this light as well. It’s just so time-consuming that I take it as I go, I have a busy schedule plus I spend a lot of time outdoors. I can definitely tell you I prefer using the light more then writing about it (although some may question that by the amount of writing I do). lol


----------



## Knight_Light

Just updated the 2nd​ part of the review under the heading “*EDC and Personal Impressions:*”. My impressions of EDCing the Armytek Wizard Pro along with some tips for EDCing headlamps in general. http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb...Term-Testing&p=4221726&viewfull=2#post4221726


----------



## Lampyridae

Knight_Light, thank you for your answer. I thought so. I'm a bit concerned because I sent them e-mail on Thursday, same day I got it, and still no answer. During the process of ordering and shipping, I e-mailed them twice about some import papers, Armytek service was very complaisant and they always replied in few hours. I see some other people are also waiting for answers couple of days, so I'll just have to be patient, I guess...

I like your EDC idea with shoelaces, but I'm just not good at knots as you are... I keep mine in silicone holder, but instead of headband I attached lanyard...


----------



## tony613

Lampyridae said:


> Tony, thanks for tip, I just posted some links...



You're welcome, and mine doesn't look like that either. 


bradthebold,
Thanks for the reply on the invoice. 

Knight_Light,
I like your EDC'ing ideas.

Everyone else,
Thank you for the feedback regarding the lag in response time. I'm glad they eventually get back to us, but in this case, I think I have my work cut out for me getting the battery and charger shipped.


----------



## ArcticHighlander

ArcticHighlander said:


> By the way this is what Armytek said in their CP marketplace forum on 4/27/13 (POST #5): "In the near future we plan to write both LED/OTF lumens. We do not like ANSI lumens." That was about 2 & 1/2 months ago. I've posted there asking when/if they still plan to provide OTF specs.


Armytek's reply was "We cannot say that exactly. In the near future. Now we are working on new models." My concern with not providing OFT values is two fold. One, they can't be directly compared to quality competitors. Two, it raises red flags as to a company's honesty and integrity. If they are deliberately misleading on their lumen specs it raises questions as to what else in their specs might be inaccurate. Also, do they only care about making a buck or do they also care enough about their products and customers to pay attention to their quality control, correcting their mistakes, and honestly supporting their warranty. I'm very interested in how they deal with missing and defective items identified by individuals in this thread.


----------



## bradthebold

ArcticHighlander said:


> Armytek's reply was "We cannot say that exactly. In the near future. Now we are working on new models." My concern with not providing OFT values is two fold. One, they can't be directly compared to quality competitors. Two, it raises red flags as to a company's honesty and integrity. If they are deliberately misleading on their lumen specs it raises questions as to what else in their specs might be inaccurate. Also, do they only care about making a buck or do they also care enough about their products and customers to pay attention to their quality control, correcting their mistakes, and honestly supporting their warranty. I'm very interested in how they deal with missing and defective items identified by individuals in this thread.



They sent me a charger, but with a European plug. Their solution, after 5 days of emailing back and forth, was to refund me $10 and told me to go buy the plug at an appliance store.


----------



## Knight_Light

Lampyridae said:


> Knight_Light, thank you for your answer. I thought so. I'm a bit concerned because I sent them e-mail on Thursday, same day I got it, and still no answer. During the process of ordering and shipping, I e-mailed them twice about some import papers, Armytek service was very complaisant and they always replied in few hours. I see some other people are also waiting for answers couple of days, so I'll just have to be patient, I guess...


 You are welcome.



Lampyridae said:


> I like your EDC idea with shoelaces, but I'm just not good at knots as you are... I keep mine in silicone holder, but instead of headband I attached lanyard...


 
If you like the idea you should give it a try. It’s really not that difficult. I use shoelaces because it’s a habit of mine to have spare shoelaces when I am in the outdoors (you would be surprised how many people bust their boot laces hiking) but you can use paracord (and it will probably look better) or any other cordage. It’s really 2 simple knots. A double fisherman and a constrictor knot, if you google both of those you will find a lot of websites teaching you how to tie them.

For EDCing the silicon holder is not a bad idea but it makes the whole setup quite bulky without any real benefit to functionality.


----------



## Knight_Light

ArcticHighlander said:


> Armytek's reply was "We cannot say that exactly. In the near future. Now we are working on new models." My concern with not providing OFT values is two fold. One, they can't be directly compared to quality competitors. Two, it raises red flags as to a company's honesty and integrity. If they are deliberately misleading on their lumen specs it raises questions as to what else in their specs might be inaccurate. Also, do they only care about making a buck or do they also care enough about their products and customers to pay attention to their quality control, correcting their mistakes, and honestly supporting their warranty. I'm very interested in how they deal with missing and defective items identified by individuals in this thread.


OTF are kind of hokey in their own right. Lux is where it is at and that’s where the standard for these manufacturers should be. 

A while back I had a conversation via email with Armytek in regards to customer service and honoring their 10 year guarantee. Their response was that they were very committed to honoring their 10 year warranty. I hope this fact remains true since customer service is probably the number 1 reason for customer loyalty, and with a unique specialized consumer base I think customer loyalty is even more important for brand success.


----------



## Knight_Light

bradthebold said:


> They sent me a charger, but with a European plug. Their solution, after 5 days of emailing back and forth, was to refund me $10 and told me to go buy the plug at an appliance store.


 I would put that $10 towards a new charger like the xtar VP1.


----------



## bradthebold

Knight_Light said:


> I would put that $10 towards a new charger like the xtar VP1.



Yeah, I'm hoping the XP4 will come out soon and be the perfect all in one charger that can charge eneloops with proper termination as well.


----------



## Knight_Light

bradthebold said:


> Yeah, I'm hoping the XP4 will come out soon and be the perfect all in one charger that can charge eneloops with proper termination as well.


 That would be awesome if they got it right, so far nitecore and jetbeam fall short on that.


----------



## bradthebold

I charged the battery to 4.15V (4.13V after an hour of sitting). I was just using the light, turned it off for 5 seconds, then tried to use it again and it wouldn't turn on and is completely unresponsive. So, unfortunately, it seems like something is wrong with it.


----------



## canibalplatipus

bradthebold said:


> I charged the battery to 4.15V (4.13V after an hour of sitting). I was just using the light, turned it off for 5 seconds, then tried to use it again and it wouldn't turn on and is completely unresponsive. So, unfortunately, it seems like something is wrong with it.



Have you tried unscrewing the tail cap than tighten and try again. I have had my light do that twice battery is charged but nothing the switch doesn't light up and won't turn on. 

Sent from my SGH-I747M using Tapatalk 2


----------



## bradthebold

canibalplatipus said:


> Have you tried unscrewing the tail cap than tighten and try again. I have had my light do that twice battery is charged but nothing the switch doesn't light up and won't turn on.
> 
> Sent from my SGH-I747M using Tapatalk 2



Yeah, that will fix it, so it's not permanently broken. Just tightening the cap or unscrewing it a quarter turn and re-tightening it won't fix it though; I have to unscrew it at least 2 turns. I'm not sure why it would need unscrewed so far to make it work. Then again, I don't know why it would just stop working either.


----------



## Knight_Light

canibalplatipus said:


> Have you tried unscrewing the tail cap than tighten and try again. I have had my light do that twice battery is charged but nothing the switch doesn't light up and won't turn on.
> 
> Sent from my SGH-I747M using Tapatalk 2


 I would talk to the manufacturer in getting that fixed, doesn't sound normal to me.


----------



## paja-jojo

bradthebold said:


> Yeah, that will fix it, so it's not permanently broken. Just tightening the cap or unscrewing it a quarter turn and re-tightening it won't fix it though; I have to unscrew it at least 2 turns. I'm not sure why it would need unscrewed so far to make it work. Then again, I don't know why it would just stop working either.



I have the same probem, i ordered one wide and one normal - on the normal version it didn't happen, but on the wide version it happens quite often - i suppose on each occasion i tested the light it happend at least once - totaling 5-6 times during 3 days. I thing the 2 turns unscrew is not because of the turns itself but the time it is uncrewed. I can unscrew only 1/4. Also it helps to press the button while unscrewing and then releasing it. I contacted armytek today and hope to resolve soon, as i would like to use the light in expedition in one month.
Also for the record.. i'm from czech republic and it cost me another $22 on each of the lights on import tax.

But othervise the light is well made and i'm happy with it over h600.


----------



## Glenn7

Knight_light: I notice you said that you wouldn't see the green beacon light on your wizard fron 5 feet or so outside if you dropped it, maybe they have used a brighter one on the production one because mine is so bright I recon I could see it from 20 feet away outside, infact its so bright in my bedroom at night that it lights up the whole room with bright flashes and I have to make sure it faces away from me it's that bright.


----------



## Knight_Light

Glenn7 said:


> Knight_light: I notice you said that you wouldn't see the green beacon light on your wizard fron 5 feet or so outside if you dropped it, maybe they have used a brighter one on the production one because mine is so bright I recon I could see it from 20 feet away outside, infact its so bright in my bedroom at night that it lights up the whole room with bright flashes and I have to make sure it faces away from me it's that bright.


 I highly doubt that they used a brighter LED for the production model. And I agree that it is quite bright and will flash from across the room indoors. But try taking this light into an outdoor environment and throw it into green grass that is 6 inches or higher and tell me what you think.


----------



## Glenn7

Ok I'll try that when it get a chance but if I loose it you buy me a new one :kiss:


----------



## ArcticHighlander

bradthebold said:


> They sent me a charger, but with a European plug. Their solution, after 5 days of emailing back and forth, was to refund me $10 and told me to go buy the plug at an appliance store.



Mine arrived but the charger also has the wrong plug for US. I emailed them and they want me to send them a picture of it. Which is going to waste a 1/2 hour or more of my time, by the time I borrow a camera, take a picture and download it to my computer. I haven't had time to do much more than check that everything is there. But I did try to rotate the flashlight in its holder. It was very difficult to turn even with two hands while directly in front of me. It currently is not functional for its intended use as a headlamp. The holder needs to be modified so that it can be readily turned with one hand while on the head. If anyone has come up with a good way to modify it, please post what you did and how well it worked.


----------



## Glenn7

ArcticHighlander said:


> Mine arrived but the charger also has the wrong plug for US. I emailed them and they want me to send them a picture of it. Which is going to waste a 1/2 hour or more of my time, by the time I borrow a camera, take a picture and download it to my computer. I haven't had time to do much more than check that everything is there. But I did try to rotate the flashlight in its holder. It was very difficult to turn even with two hands while directly in front of me. It currently is not functional for its intended use as a headlamp. The holder needs to be modified so that it can be readily turned with one hand while on the head. If anyone has come up with a good way to modify it, please post what you did and how well it worked.


why not put a little Vaseline or silicon grease between the band and light that will make it turn.


----------



## tony613

Glenn7 said:


> why not put a little Vaseline or silicon grease between the band and light that will make it turn.



+1. In my case, I took the tail cap off when I was putting the light in the holder. Because of that I had a little Nyogel on my fingers (from the threads of the light) so I put it in the grooves of the light where the holder sits. The gel made turning the light easier in the holder. That said, while my light sits in the holder firmly, it is not impossible to turn - but it is much more stationary than the Zebralight H600w and its silicon holder.


----------



## ArcticHighlander

Glenn7 said:


> why not put a little Vaseline or silicon grease between the band and light that will make it turn.



Are both safe for use with the rubber(?) holder or will they cause it to gradually rot out?


----------



## Beacon of Light

I have this same problem and I noticed this problem happening almost e very time I went to use the voltage indicator as you need to get to the strobe setting and then after it finishes reading the voltage you need to turn the light off as it stays in a constant loop of reading the voltage.

_With Zebralight, it will revert back to the mode you had it in prior to the voltage indicator. Also the Liteflux L2XT will revert back to the prior mode after a voltage test. Just another gripe about the Armytek to me as others have done it correctly but Armytek failed in this regard and it's not a question of preference it is whether they succeeded or failed. _ 

So after I turn the light off after the voltage indicator, the light fails to turn back on. I have to do what the pther poster does and remove the tailcap and then tighten it and it may or may not come back on the first try. This to me seems like a critical bug that shouldn't have been released if this happens to all lights. *(It happens with both my Pro regular and wide U3)*

I still have to find out if returning these will be on my dime or not and if it needs to go back to China or Canada. 

All in all it was a hope this would be as evolutionary as KnightLight made it seem but to me this fell flat after being used to Zevbralights all these years. Not sure how he could look at the Armytek favorably over the H600. I don't even have a H600 (waiting for their H602-hopefully soon), but I view my H51s, H502s and H31s in favor of either Armytek I have, and they run on AAs or CR123s and not the superior capacity 18650 cells the Armytek uses.



bradthebold said:


> My light just won't turn on sometimes. I'll go to use it, and nothing happens when I click or hold the button. Tightening the tailcap doesn't do anything. I have to unscrew the tailcap half way and least and screw it back on to get the light to work.
> 
> Also, when I put it in turbo mode now, it will blink 3 times and flash the warning signal that the voltage is too low. I thought this only came on at 3.1V? The voltage indicator in the light says 3.5V. It doesn't do it in any other mode.


----------



## ArcticHighlander

tony613 said:


> +1. In my case, I took the tail cap off when I was putting the light in the holder. Because of that I had a little Nyogel on my fingers (from the threads of the light) so I put it in the grooves of the light where the holder sits. The gel made turning the light easier in the holder. That said, while my light sits in the holder firmly, it is not impossible to turn - but it is much more stationary than the Zebralight H600w and its silicon holder.


Mine arrived in the holder. After greasing can it be turned fairly easily with one hand when on your head?


----------



## paja-jojo

Beacon of Light said:


> I have this same problem and I noticed this problem happening almost e very time I went to use the voltage indicator as you need to get to the strobe setting and then after it finishes reading the voltage you need to turn the light off as it stays in a constant loop of reading the voltage.
> 
> _With Zebralight, it will revert back to the mode you had it in prior to the voltage indicator. Also the Liteflux L2XT will revert back to the prior mode after a voltage test. Just another gripe about the Armytek to me as others have done it correctly but Armytek failed in this regard and it's not a question of preference it is whether they succeeded or failed. _
> 
> So after I turn the light off after the voltage indicator, the light fails to turn back on. I have to do what the pther poster does and remove the tailcap and then tighten it and it may or may not come back on the first try. This to me seems like a critical bug that shouldn't have been released if this happens to all lights. *(It happens with both my Pro regular and wide U3)*
> 
> I still have to find out if returning these will be on my dime or not and if it needs to go back to China or Canada. All in all it was a hope this would be as evolutionary as KnightLight made it seem but to me this fell flat after being used to Zevbralights all these years. Not sure how he could look at the Armytek favorably over the H600. I don't even have a H600, but I view my H51s, H502s and H31s in favor of either Armytek I have, and they run on AAs or CR123s.



I can confirm the failure to power on after some playing with different setting can be reproduced on both my wizards pro (regural and wide). At first i thaught it happens only on the wide. But after using the regural more it happend there as well. I'm in contact with support, Sandre responded, that they have to talk to the technicians. I hope this issue will be solvable without exchange - but i suppose it would be not.


----------



## Beacon of Light

Vaseline or any petroleum product is NOT recommended for rubber O-rings and the holder seems to be made of rubber, so...



ArcticHighlander said:


> Are both safe for use with the rubber(?) holder or will they cause it to gradually rot out?


----------



## Knight_Light

Glenn7 said:


> Ok I'll try that when it get a chance but if I loose it you buy me a new one :kiss:


 If you lose one I am claiming user error.


----------



## tony613

ArcticHighlander said:


> Mine arrived in the holder. After greasing can it be turned fairly easily with one hand when on your head?



Well, in my case I was able to turn it more easily but while on my head I think I needed to use two hands to keep the light/strap on my head. I only tested it in the house, not in practice, and I only put the slightest amount of gel on it. You would need to experiment - AND - I _believe_ you can do so safely if you use Nyogel. After all, that is what is used on the threads of the flashlights I own. They all have o-rings and those rings are covered in the stuff, from the manufacturer. It may not be a good idea to use a petroleum based product.


----------



## Knight_Light

I think putting any kind of lubricant on the holder is only appropriate if the headlamp will continually stay in the holder, otherwise it will be just too messy. The best solution would be to remove a small amount of material from the holder, I am still trying to figure out the best way to accomplish that. In my opinion the holder is definitely designed to tight, having said that I have no problems turning the headlamp in the holder with one hand on my head.


----------



## Knight_Light

Beacon of Light said:


> I have this same problem and I noticed this problem happening almost e very time I went to use the voltage indicator as you need to get to the strobe setting and then after it finishes reading the voltage you need to turn the light off as it stays in a constant loop of reading the voltage.
> 
> With Zebralight, it will revert back to the mode you had it in prior to the voltage indicator. Also the Liteflux L2XT will revert back to the prior mode after a voltage test. Just another gripe about the Armytek to me as others have done it correctly but Armytek failed in this regard and it's not a question of preference it is whether they succeeded or failed.


 If you double-click when you are in the specialty modes the light will return to whatever memorized mode you last used in Section 2.



Beacon of Light said:


> So after I turn the light off after the voltage indicator, the light fails to turn back on. I have to do what the pther poster does and remove the tailcap and then tighten it and it may or may not come back on the first try. This to me seems like a critical bug that shouldn't have been released if this happens to all lights. (It happens with both my Pro regular and wide U3)
> 
> I still have to find out if returning these will be on my dime or not and if it needs to go back to China or Canada.


 I don’t think any light should have that quirky behavior and should definitely be sent back for warranty work.



Beacon of Light said:


> All in all it was a hope this would be as evolutionary as KnightLight made it seem but to me this fell flat after being used to Zevbralights all these years. Not sure how he could look at the Armytek favorably over the H600. I don't even have a H600 (waiting for their H602-hopefully soon), but I view my H51s, H502s and H31s in favor of either Armytek I have, and they run on AAs or CR123s and not the superior capacity 18650 cells the Armytek uses.


 I still think the Armytek is evolutionary in this particular market segment and my reasons are scattered throughout this thread. That is just my opinion from owning and operating both headlamps. 

What is interesting to see is how Armytek handles all of these potential customer service requests. I hope it does not follow in the footsteps of poor customer service that has been recently associated with zebra light instead of taking an example and a page from someone like 4/7's.


----------



## Knight_Light

tony613 said:


> Well, in my case I was able to turn it more easily but while on my head I think I needed to use two hands to keep the light/strap on my head. I only tested it in the house, not in practice, and I only put the slightest amount of gel on it. You would need to experiment - AND - I _believe_ you can do so safely if you use Nyogel. After all, that is what is used on the threads of the flashlights I own. They all have o-rings and those rings are covered in the stuff, from the manufacturer. It may not be a good idea to use a petroleum based product.


 I personally use fluorinated grease on all of my stuff. I prefer it over anything I have seen and it is relatively cheap. It also is a little bit thicker and stays where you put it.


----------



## RedForest UK

Mine arrived today and seems to be working fine, none of the issues reported by others here. When I had first received it I found that sometimes a click of the button would not turn it on, but if I pressed harder it always would, now it seems to be working perfectly. There is certainly PWM on Firefly mode 1 though, but that may be for higher efficiency (there is a point where lower current makes efficiency drop).

Beam is about perfect in every way; no artifacts at all, very clean/smooth and perfectly formed for close to mid-range utility. The 5500k tint on the U2 is really good, CRI seems noticably higher than my other cool whites. The headband is very sturdy too, a big improvement over Zebralight imo.

Preliminary and very rough OTF output readings suggest 170/360/725 for the top three modes rather than the 250/550/1010 listed by Armytek. I'll test again when it is dark though and I can get more accuracy.

Overall, I am impressed. Time will tell though as it isn't even dark yet.


There is one other thing that I would add, and this is not certain. However, even through the diffused TIR the LED looks much more likely to be a gen 1 XM-L than an XM-L2, due to a quite noticable (when you are looking for it) band of green directly around the yellow of the LED die itself (this is of course when looking into the head with the light off rather than referring to the beam).

Whether this is an issue is subjective, as of course it doesn't change the function of the light itself. If I like it how it is then why should I care if it has and XM-L or XM-L2? I may also be wrong. But I would appreciate some clarification from Armytek on the matter.


----------



## tony613

If you want to try the lubrication method before making permanent modifications, whatever your lubricant of choice, here are 1,000+ words of applying it in a tidy fashion. 

Put the lubricant on the tip of something blunt (a flat ended toothpick will work fine)
Raise the supporting strap of the silicon loop
Place the lubricant on the silicon or the flashlight
Rotate the flashlight to evenly spread the lubricant
Repeat the procedure for the other silicon loop
Wipe off excess


----------



## toysareforboys

ArcticHighlander said:


> Are both safe for use with the rubber(?) holder or will they cause it to gradually rot out?





Beacon of Light said:


> Vaseline or any petroleum product is NOT recommended for rubber O-rings and the holder seems to be made of rubber, so...


What are o-rings made of? lol  Nyogel is perfectly fine to use as are most types of oil (motor oil, etc.).



tony613 said:


> If you want to try the lubrication method before making permanent modifications, whatever your lubricant of choice, here are 1,000+ words of applying it in a tidy fashion.
> 
> Put the lubricant on the tip of something blunt (a flat ended toothpick will work fine)
> Raise the supporting strap of the silicon loop
> Place the lubricant on the silicon or the flashlight
> Rotate the flashlight to evenly spread the lubricant
> Repeat the procedure for the other silicon loop
> Wipe off excess


Sweet! Thanks for the info and pics, I'ma lube mine up right now.

-Jamie M.


----------



## petr9999

i just got mine  the normal cool white narrow one, i also have a zl h600w, and the light output is similar, but no stepdown! (great for bike/snowboard) and much nice beam pattern


----------



## markr6

I'm happy with my H600 but still tempted by this wide model. Changing the armytek headband so it didn't look like something out of 1972 would be nice...yes, I'm that vain


----------



## psychbeat

these look nice- I might have to get one of the neutral/warm narrows when theyre back in stock.

Im probably the only one who wishes there were just a simple lo-med-hi UI hahah

not a deal breaker tho. soooo glad it doesnt step down on HIGH


----------



## petr9999

some initial thoughts:

-if u hold down the power from off, it cycles through all the modes
-headband is comfortable and sturdy, but looks quite cheap... (better then the zebra through)
-no way to go straight to turbo, u have to click, and then double click
-voltage indicator is quite difficult to get to, 4 clicks to strobe, and then cycle between 3 strobes to get to the voltage
-the normal narrow version is better imo, there is NO hotspot on mine, and the spill isnt any bigger on the wide version
-i ran it on turbo pointed up to light up a room, and after 5 mins, the heat protection kicked in (5blinks and goes to 100lm to cool off) then went back after 10-15s of cooling automatically. I presume that outside with some wind it will stay in turbo for the hour.
-firefly mode is nowhere near as low as the zebra, but just right for pitch dark conditions


----------



## tony613

petr9999 said:


> some initial thoughts:
> 
> -if u hold down the power from off, it cycles through all the modes
> -headband is comfortable and sturdy, but looks quite cheap... (better then the zebra through)
> -no way to go straight to turbo, u have to click, and then double click
> *-voltage indicator is quite difficult to get to, 4 clicks to strobe, and then cycle between 3 strobes to get to the voltage*
> -the normal narrow version is better imo, there is NO hotspot on mine, and the spill isnt any bigger on the wide version
> -i ran it on turbo pointed up to light up a room, and *after 5 mins, the heat protection kicked in *(5blinks and goes to 100lm to cool off) *then went back after 10-15s of cooling automatically.* I presume that outside with some wind it will stay in turbo for the hour.
> -firefly mode is nowhere near as low as the zebra, but just right for pitch dark conditions



1) voltage indicator
But remember, the mode is remembered, so if you leave it in "voltage indicator" mode, then the next time you 4 click to strobe, "voltage indicator" mode will be the mode entered - first - no scrolling needed.

2) heat protection
It stepped back up again ... didn't know that, and it's pretty cool, no pun intended.


----------



## RedForest UK

petr9999 said:


> -no way to go straight to turbo, u have to click, and then double click



If you go into turbo mode then unscrew the tailcap a little, hold the button down and re-tighten then you have instant access to momentary turbo mode. It's not quite the same but I think this 'tactical' mode is actually a nice addition to the UI.


----------



## petr9999

I know both of these, I usually read my manuals  however 4 clicks still seems like a hassle... its quite difficult for me to pull it off with one hand  and the tactical mode is NICE, but its not what I want, I usually run my zebralight on max, and all I have to do is press the button, here I have to press, wait and double click (but It stays in max!)


----------



## RedForest UK

By the way, Armytek replied to my query on the green gen 1 XM-L appearance on CPFmarketplace.



ArmyTek said:


> We use XM-L2 LED.
> Green mask of copper MPCB can give you this green ring.



I'm having a hard time picturing what it actually looks like under the TIR, but I see no good reason to think that they are less reliable than my eyes (when looking at a distorted image through a TIR lense at least!).


----------



## ArcticHighlander

petr9999 said:


> some initial thoughts:
> -i ran it on turbo pointed up to light up a room, and after 5 mins, the heat protection kicked in (5blinks and goes to 100lm to cool off) then went back after 10-15s of cooling automatically. I presume that outside with some wind it will stay in turbo for the hour


If it kicked in after just being on high for 5 mins, it sounds like you have a defective light.


----------



## bradthebold

ArcticHighlander said:


> If it kicked in after just being on high for 5 mins, it sounds like you have a defective light.



Yeah, during Knight_Light's test, his light got ~50˚F hotter at the head from 5 minutes to 1 hour and never tripped protection. So your light must be heating up insanely fast or it is tripping protection at far too low a temperature.


----------



## paja-jojo

bradthebold said:


> Yeah, during Knight_Light's test, his light got ~50˚F hotter at the head from 5 minutes to 1 hour and never tripped protection. So your light must be heating up insanely fast or it is tripping protection at far too low a temperature.



I did the same test - room temperatire was 27 °C and after fife minutes the thermal protection kicked in the switch was blinking greenisch which acording to manual means 65°C - it dropped to 100lm and then after some time hop on max again - this is quite annyoing i thing the other temerature protection levels are unnecessary this way - if it drops to 100lm on 65°C it newer gets hotter than 65°C unles external temeperature is above 65°C which is insane but still the light would just go to 100lm. I would be better if for exmaple on 65°C the protection dropped the intensity to 550LM, then on 75°C to 250lm and on 80°C or above to the 100lm - this way you would get far more convinient stepdown efect than from 1010lm to 100lm - which in certain occasion can mean no visibility at all.


----------



## Lampyridae

Lampyridae said:


> Can anyone who has WPro comment, please. Does yours look like this?
> 
> http://imageupload.co.uk/files/33c5fpk97877foyhyh5q.jpg
> 
> from another angle:
> 
> http://imageupload.co.uk/files/t67rrct5s3p5b77rnkxz.jpg
> 
> Is it part of seal (O-ring?) comming out? I'm concerned about potential water leak, because I'm not sure if any of it is left between bezel and TIR at that particular spot...





Lampyridae said:


> Knight_Light, thank you for your answer. I thought so. I'm a bit concerned because I sent them e-mail on Thursday, same day I got it, and still no answer. During the process of ordering and shipping, I e-mailed them twice about some import papers, Armytek service was very complaisant and they always replied in few hours. I see some other people are also waiting for answers couple of days, so I'll just have to be patient, I guess...



I decided to mail them once more on Monday and got replay in an hour... After appologies for waiting, I've been told they have to consult their technician specialist and will contact me further. On Tuesday I got an e-mail convincing me everithing is ok with my lamp and that I should incise the redundant part of O-ring by myself. That action will have no influence in water resistance nor IP68 standard will be reduced.
I must admit I'm very afraid to do anything with sharp items like scalpel around TIR lenses so I'll just leave it this way. Maybe somebody has advice how to do it safe...


----------



## Beacon of Light

I should probably test both lights I have on the higher output modes to make sure they are working ok and not heating up and stepping down prematurely, but since I'm pretty much only using firefly 1 and firefly 2 I never really venture out of those 2 modes.


----------



## RedForest UK

Why would you purchase relatively large lights if you are only to use them on low outputs? 

I understand your want/need for low levels, but then why not minimise the size of the light itself (as you'll have long runtimes anyway) and carry a spare cell if you think you may need it.

One of the main factors in the design of this light is optimization and efficiency at high outputs. For low levels there are more efficient emitters and more efficient (size/weight wise) lights overall.


----------



## toysareforboys

RedForest UK said:


> Why would you purchase relatively large lights if you are only to use them on low outputs?
> 
> I understand your want/need for low levels, but then why not minimise the size of the light itself (as you'll have long runtimes anyway) and carry a spare cell if you think you may need it.
> 
> One of the main factors in the design of this light is optimization and efficiency at high outputs. For low levels there are more efficient emitters and more efficient (size/weight wise) lights overall.


Because we like using inappropriate tools for inappropriate purposes 







I get more ooooh's and ahhhh's with my SC600MKii on its lowest mode, than I do on its brightest 

I love monster monster lights that can go super super low. Who knows why, maybe I just like to go low??






-Jamie M.


----------



## tony613

Lampyridae said:


> I decided to mail them once more on Monday and got replay in an hour... After appologies for waiting, ...



I hoping if I post I'll change my luck, but I still have not received ANY responses from my emails regarding the missing battery and charger, and that is from last Thursday, July 11. Thus far I've tried three times. The first two emails I sent used the address from the order confirmation email I received - [email protected]. And just in case there was something wrong with that email address, the last one was yesterday around noon (+/-) eastern daylight time, using my account in their website directly. 

Lampyridae, if you don't mind, what email address did you use to get a response within one hour?? 

Is anyone else still waiting days without any responses?

Thanks.


----------



## Lampyridae

Tony, I used - [email protected], always around 8-9am eastern time...


----------



## RedForest UK

toysareforboys said:


> I get more ooooh's and ahhhh's with my SC600MKii on its lowest mode, than I do on its brightest
> 
> I love monster monster lights that can go super super low. Who knows why, maybe I just like to go low??
> 
> -Jamie M.



I agree that it's great that they _can _go low, versatility is one of the best assets for a mid-sized light. But Beacon of Light seems to repeatedly imply that the _only _ever uses the lowest levels on any of his lights. In that case then surely a dedicated and more specialised version would be a better choice. The Preon P0 for example is one that I'm sure would suit those uses very well.

Nice picture btw, it reminded me of this video: [video]http://www.youtube.com/embed/7ZmJtYaUTa0[/video]


----------



## toysareforboys

RedForest UK said:


> I agree that it's great that they _can _go low, versatility is one of the best assets for a mid-sized light. But Beacon of Light seems to repeatedly imply that the _only _ever uses the lowest levels on any of his lights. In that case then surely a dedicated and more specialised version would be a better choice. The Preon P0 for example is one that I'm sure would suit those uses very well.
> 
> Nice picture btw, it reminded me of this video: [video]http://www.youtube.com/embed/7ZmJtYaUTa0[/video]


Awesome vid, had not seen. On a road bike too, guys got skillz.

-Jamie M.


----------



## petr9999

ArcticHighlander said:


> If it kicked in after just being on high for 5 mins, it sounds like you have a defective light.


this was with the ligh tailstading on a table, if i hold it or walk outside with it on my head, it stays in turbo. I think he had a fan blowing on the light during the test?


----------



## Beacon of Light

RedForest UK said:


> But Beacon of Light seems to repeatedly imply that the _only _ever uses the lowest levels on any of his lights. In that case then surely a dedicated and more specialised version would be a better choice. The Preon P0 for example is one that I'm sure would suit those uses very well.



I own 5 Preon 0 lights and they are cool but I need to get the newer revision as the older ones don't work with Eneloops without causing the PCB to get worn or cracked. Also I prefer headlamps to flashlights so the P0's collect dust for the most part.


----------



## Beacon of Light

Good point and I agree, there was no need for their larger size since I do use only the lower levels of any light I own. Curiosity and the hype of this light made me want to see what the fuss was about as well as it being my first 18650 light. To be honest I usually run my Zebralight 1xAA headlamps on AAA cells in an adapter for the most part. So to answer your question as to why I'd want such a big light that has these outrageous light outputs? "Because I can" is the best I can come up with.



RedForest UK said:


> Why would you purchase relatively large lights if you are only to use them on low outputs?
> 
> I understand your want/need for low levels, but then why not minimise the size of the light itself (as you'll have long runtimes anyway) and carry a spare cell if you think you may need it.
> 
> One of the main factors in the design of this light is optimization and efficiency at high outputs. For low levels there are more efficient emitters and more efficient (size/weight wise) lights overall.


----------



## Knight_Light

RedForest UK said:


> Preliminary and very rough OTF output readings suggest 170/360/725 for the top three modes rather than the 250/550/1010 listed by Armytek. I'll test again when it is dark though and I can get more accuracy.


 Did you by any chance get more accurate readings on the OTF output? That's a 30% difference from claimed output.


----------



## Knight_Light

markr6 said:


> I'm happy with my H600 but still tempted by this wide model. Changing the armytek headband so it didn't look like something out of 1972 would be nice...yes, I'm that vain


 I would recommend getting the regular model not the wide should you decide to make the purchase.


----------



## Knight_Light

Beacon of Light said:


> Good point and I agree, there was no need for their larger size since I do use only the lower levels of any light I own. Curiosity and the hype of this light made me want to see what the fuss was about as well as it being my first 18650 light. To be honest I usually run my Zebralight 1xAA headlamps on AAA cells in an adapter for the most part. So to answer your question as to why I'd want such a big light that has these outrageous light outputs? "Because I can" is the best I can come up with.


 Could you please explain to me for curiosity sake why you would use AAA batteries with an adapter in a AA headlamp? You know they make AAA adapters for 18650. Just saying.


----------



## Knight_Light

petr9999 said:


> this was with the ligh tailstading on a table, if i hold it or walk outside with it on my head, it stays in turbo. I think he had a fan blowing on the light during the test?


 I did not have any fan blowing on my lights. They were never touched during the duration of the test except to turn them on and turn them off. When I was doing the test I expressed my concerns for the high temperatures. Maybe Armytek implemented a different thermal cutoff point for the production light. I would be interested if others could do a runtime test on Turbo and see if they can replicate my results.


----------



## RedForest UK

Beacon of Light said:


> I own 5 Preon 0 lights and they are cool but I need to get the newer revision as the older ones don't work with Eneloops without causing the PCB to get worn or cracked. Also I prefer headlamps to flashlights so the P0's collect dust for the most part.



When I contacted 4sevens about an issue with my first version P0 having used eneloops they allowed me to simply send it back for a new version replacement. So you might want to look into that.

I would just suggest trying the high outputs outside, even if just for fun. The turbo mode on this makes you feel like daylight is following wherever you look. It's in this sense quite possibly the best/most effective lighting tool that I have ever owned.


----------



## RedForest UK

Knight_Light said:


> Did you by any chance get more accurate readings on the OTF output? That's a 30% difference from claimed output.



Testing with no ambient light interference gave results again of: 0.5, 5, 35, 170, 365, 720. However this is based upon a ceiling bounce method with the conversion factor calculated with reference to mainly reflector based lights. Re-positioning the lights to somewhere where the beam profile should have much less of an effect on output readings I got 24 for the Wizard Pro relative to 20.5 for my SC600 which reads 700 OTF on the conventional measure. 

That would suggest an almost 20% advantage to the Armytek over the SC600 and closer to 840 OTF on turbo mode; implying a 15% increase on the previously mentioned numbers.

Such a large effect is making me reconsider how I position my lights during the set-up, I may have to re-test them all and work out a new conversion factor in the future to keep the scale accurate over significantly varying beam profiles.


----------



## Trevtrain

Knight_Light said:


> Did you by any chance get more accurate readings on the OTF output? That's a 30% difference from claimed output.



Remembering of course that Armytek are not quoting OTF but LED outputs.

We need to get one of these lights into the hands of someone with a proper Integrating Sphere or other clearly defined methodology I think. Otherwise, we really are just guessing. :thinking:

_(EDIT: Sorry, that bit sounded a bit disrespectful on reading it back. Not intending to belittle anyone's readings and tests here guys - I am enjoying this thread immensely and thank you all for your tests and discussion. )
_
I wonder if there will much variation between samples in the production run? I would hope the Armytek QC and tolerances would ensure there is not.

It would also be nice to know (just from pure curiosity) whether there was much difference between Knight_Light's review sample and the production models.


----------



## Knight_Light

Trevtrain said:


> It would also be nice to know (just from pure curiosity) whether there was much difference between Knight_Light's review sample and the production models.


 I am waiting on my production sample from Armytek and when I get it I will be more then happy to elaborate on the differences. I can tell you 2 differences right now. Mode number 2 on my preproduction was rated at 75 lm. My suggestion was to increase the output as the perceived light change between the modes was almost indistinguishable, so they decided to raise it to 115 lm for the production model. The preproduction model also has 3 strobe settings and no battery voltage check. Dropping one of the strobe modes and including a battery voltage check was also a recommendation that was given by me to Armytek. During the Turbo runtime test the heat on the headlamp was considerable as reported on this forum and to Armytek so I don't know if the modified the temperature threshold setting.


----------



## Trevtrain

Knight_Light said:


> I did not have any fan blowing on my lights. They were never touched during the duration of the test except to turn them on and turn them off. When I was doing the test I expressed my concerns for the high temperatures. Maybe Armytek implemented a different thermal cutoff point for the production light. I would be interested if others could do a runtime test on Turbo and see if they can replicate my results.



Recieved my Wizard Pro three days ago. Battery and charger supplied. One very minor criticism would be that the charger was not supplied with an Australian plug, but then, I didn't really expect it to be. As it is a standard two-pin connector at the charger end I have any number of leads that will fit. I have no plans to use this cheap Ultrafire charger anyway except perhaps as an emergency backup.

Another minor "criticism" would be the supplied "manual." As a folding sheet of paper it looks and feels like an extremely cheap b&w photocopy. The print is small and as supplied, was already "worn off" at the folds meaning some of the text is almost unreadable. None of this is a big deal, but compared to the sheet supplied with my Predator is a definite drop in quality. 
The irony of this b&w photocopy is that it refers to a diagram to indicate how the colour of the LED indicates temperature and voltage. :thinking:

I haven't had much chance to test the light other than a few quick comarisons about the house and in the back yard but notwithstanding the comments above, my initial impressions of the light itself are extremely good. 

In response to comments about thermal issues, I decided to run a quick tailstanding test in Turbo mode. Results as follows:

I don't have an IR thermometer so descriptions of "quite warm" or "hot" are purely subjective and based on how the light felt when touched briefly to the palm of my hand.

Ambient temp 22C
The light was tailstanding on a coffee table in living room - no fan or breeze of any kind.
I began the test using the Panasonic cell supplied with the light as part of the "bundle" - resting voltage 4.14V

At 3 min mark, the head is quite hot to touch but doesn't burn hands
At 5 min mark, the head is too hot to comfortably hold but still no warning from Indicator light
5.53 stepped down for 15 seconds or so and then resumed - (main beam gave 3 quick flashes upon stepdown
6.39 stepped down
6.51 resumed
(Whole body of light by now quite warm)
7.37 stepped down
7.49 resumed
8.16 stepped down
8.38 resumed
8.55 stepped down
9.10 resumed
9.32 stepped down
9.50 resumed
10.15 stepped down
10.34 resumed
10.59 stepped down
11.18 resumed
11.41 stepped down
12.03 resumed
12.24 stepped down

I stopped the test at about 12mins 30sec as I felt I had enough data. At this point, the whole body of light was very warm. The head was very hot. When I removed the battery it was wam to the touch but less so than the body of the light. 

Final resting battery voltage 3.94V

At no time during the test did I notice a change in colour of the LED indicator light.

I will be interested to see how the thermal issues pan out when I am walking or moving about. Realistically, given the visual difference between Max and Main (or what some are calling Turbo and High) I can't immediately think of a situation where I'd need to run it at maximum for an extended period anyway.

Hope this is of help.


----------



## bradthebold

Trevtrain said:


> Recieved my Wizard Pro three days ago. Battery and charger supplied. One very minor criticism would be that the charger was not supplied with an Australian plug, but then, I didn't really expect it to be. As it is a standard two-pin connector at the charger end I have any number of leads that will fit. I have no plans to use this cheap Ultrafire charger anyway except perhaps as an emergency backup.
> 
> Another minor "criticism" would be the supplied "manual." As a folding sheet of paper it looks and feels like an extremely cheap b&w photocopy. The print is small and as supplied, was already "worn off" at the folds meaning some of the text is almost unreadable. None of this is a big deal, but compared to the sheet supplied with my Predator is a definite drop in quality.
> The irony of this b&w photocopy is that it refers to a diagram to indicate how the colour of the LED indicates temperature and voltage. :thinking:
> 
> I haven't had much chance to test the light other than a few quick comarisons about the house and in the back yard but notwithstanding the comments above, my initial impressions of the light itself are extremely good.
> 
> In response to comments about thermal issues, I decided to run a quick tailstanding test in Turbo mode. Results as follows:
> 
> I don't have an IR thermometer so descriptions of "quite warm" or "hot" are purely subjective and based on how the light felt when touched briefly to the palm of my hand.
> 
> Ambient temp 22C
> The light was tailstanding on a coffee table in living room - no fan or breeze of any kind.
> I began the test using the Panasonic cell supplied with the light as part of the "bundle" - resting voltage 4.14V
> 
> At 3 min mark, the head is quite hot to touch but doesn't burn hands
> At 5 min mark, the head is too hot to comfortably hold but still no warning from Indicator light
> 5.53 stepped down for 15 seconds or so and then resumed - (main beam gave 3 quick flashes upon stepdown
> 6.39 stepped down
> 6.51 resumed
> (Whole body of light by now quite warm)
> 7.37 stepped down
> 7.49 resumed
> 8.16 stepped down
> 8.38 resumed
> 8.55 stepped down
> 9.10 resumed
> 9.32 stepped down
> 9.50 resumed
> 10.15 stepped down
> 10.34 resumed
> 10.59 stepped down
> 11.18 resumed
> 11.41 stepped down
> 12.03 resumed
> 12.24 stepped down
> 
> I stopped the test at about 12mins 30sec as I felt I had enough data. At this point, the whole body of light was very warm. The head was very hot. When I removed the battery it was wam to the touch but less so than the body of the light.
> 
> Final resting battery voltage 3.94V
> 
> At no time during the test did I notice a change in colour of the LED indicator light.
> 
> I will be interested to see how the thermal issues pan out when I am walking or moving about. Realistically, given the visual difference between Max and Main (or what some are calling Turbo and High) I can't immediately think of a situation where I'd need to run it at maximum for an extended period anyway.
> 
> Hope this is of help.



Well that's disappointing if one of the main features is no step down, which is what Knight_Light's tests confirm, and it is constantly stepping down in these production versions. I will test this weekend when I have access to an IR thermometer and see how hot mine gets.

Edit: I just tested without temps and mine made it to 5m10s before it stepped down for 10s. Then it stepped down for another 10s at 6m. The tube was pretty warm, but easily holdable long term. The head was too hot to continually touch after 3 mins. After 6 mins the battery was warm, but nowhere near hot. Significantly cooler than the tube. 

I wonder what they're measuring for their temps? The battery makes sense, but it is nowhere near that hot. Warning level is 65˚C - 80˚C and critical is above 80˚C. I don't think there's anyway the tube or battery exceeded 150˚F. Knight_Light's took half an hour to. I will see this weekend how hot the production model gets before it steps down though. Seems like another deceptive spec.

Extra edit: I understand the instructions a little more. So it steps down 25% in warning mode. My indicator light flashed green, so it claims to have hit 65˚C. If it alway steps down at 65˚C, then what's the point of have different colors for the different temps or having a critical level at all. If it always steps down at 65˚C it would never make it above 80˚C.


----------



## Trevtrain

Beacon of Light said:


> I have this same problem and I noticed this problem happening almost e very time I went to use the voltage indicator as you need to get to the strobe setting and then after it finishes reading the voltage you need to turn the light off as it stays in a constant loop of reading the voltage.


 
I can't replicate this problem with mine. When in voltage indicator mode, a double click will take it back to regular mode, a single click will turn it off and a long-click will change it to strobe mode. 
Of course, if you don't click at all it will stay in voltage indicator mode. 

In this mode, I get a short burst of about 3 seconds of light, followed by the Main LED flashing to indicate voltage. Then I get another 3 seconds, followed by voltage indicator flases, etc. The cycle will repeat until I exit the mode.
I have also found that the intensity of both the 3 second flash and the voltage indicator pulses will be the same as whatever level I had in the main mode (excluding firely modes). In other words, if I had the main beam on High (Main 4), the pulses will be on High (Main 4) but if I had the main bean on low (Main 1) then that will be the intensity of the pulses. 





Beacon of Light said:


> So after I turn the light off after the voltage indicator, the light fails to turn back on. I have to do what the pther poster does and remove the tailcap and then tighten it and it may or may not come back on the first try. This to me seems like a critical bug that shouldn't have been released if this happens to all lights. *(It happens with both my Pro regular and wide U3)*



I have tried this a number of ways and cannot replicate the problem on mine. If there was a critical bug as you are speculating, perhaps it has been fixed.


----------



## Trevtrain

bradthebold said:


> Well that's disappointing if one of the main features is no step down, which is what Knight_Light's tests confirm, and it is constantly stepping down in these production versions. I will test this weekend when I have access to an IR thermometer and see how hot mine gets.
> 
> ........I will see this weekend how hot the production model gets before it steps down though. Seems like another deceptive spec.



I will be interested to hear your actual readings using the IR thermometer Brad.

I don't think Armytek ever advertised the light as "No step down" in regards to temperature. That claim was in respect to stepping down with falling battery voltage. Unlike a lot of other models which gradually drop brightness with battery voltage, the Wizard Pro will keep the output constant.
I actually tried a rough test on this the other night and the light remained on High with no perceptible dimming until the cell was under 3V.
I wouldn't call this deceptive. 

They have always been up front about the light having thermal step down and I personally think that is a good thing. I was quite surprised to see Knight_Light's initial test results regarding the temperature his pre-production unit reached without dropping. Perhaps the later units were tweaked to be a bit more conservative.

I like the fact that the Turbo (Max) mode is capable of running continually without any artificial "timer" kicking it back after 30 seconds, 200 seconds, etc. I also think it is sensible to implement the thermal safety when you look at how little mass this light has given that it is pushing 1000 LED lumens. 

Would you be able to try your test with some moderate airflow as well if you have a fan? I'd be interested to see how much (or how little) breeze is needed to keep the temperatures down.


----------



## bradthebold

Trevtrain said:


> I will be interested to hear your actual readings using the IR thermometer Brad.
> 
> I don't think Armytek ever advertised the light as "No step down" in regards to temperature. That claim was in respect to stepping down with falling battery voltage. Unlike a lot of other models which gradually drop brightness with battery voltage, the Wizard Pro will keep the output constant.
> I actually tried a rough test on this the other night and the light remained on High with no perceptible dimming until the cell was under 3V.
> I wouldn't call this deceptive.
> 
> They have always been up front about the light having thermal step down and I personally think that is a good thing. I was quite surprised to see Knight_Light's initial test results regarding the temperature his pre-production unit reached without dropping. Perhaps the later units were tweaked to be a bit more conservative.
> 
> I like the fact that the Turbo (Max) mode is capable of running continually without any artificial "timer" kicking it back after 30 seconds, 200 seconds, etc. I also think it is sensible to implement the thermal safety when you look at how little mass this light has given that it is pushing 1000 LED lumens.
> 
> Would you be able to try your test with some moderate airflow as well if you have a fan? I'd be interested to see how much (or how little) breeze is needed to keep the temperatures down.



Yeah, I guess I was basing the no step-down from temperature off Knight_Light's test and what he's been saying about it. If the light always steps down at 65˚C, then what's the point of having higher warning level light colors and a critical light color and increased step-down? It doesn't seem like there would be any way for it to reach a higher temperature. And where are they measuring this 65˚C on the light?

I will test the head and tube temps every minute through a few step downs and then the battery when I'm done. I will try with different fan levels too. The light seemed to cool off pretty fast after I was done. My test above was with 78˚F ambient temperature with a possible slight breeze from the air conditioner.

I'll try while holding the tube the whole time too and see if my hand absorbing some of the heat will let it run longer.


----------



## Trevtrain

bradthebold said:


> Extra edit: I understand the instructions a little more. So it steps down 25% in warning mode. My indicator light flashed green, so it claims to have hit 65˚C. If it alway steps down at 65˚C, then what's the point of have different colors for the different temps or having a critical level at all. If it always steps down at 65˚C it would never make it above 80˚C.



The instructions are not as clear as they could be IMO. The way I read it, the 25% step down you are talking about is only for low VOLTAGE. The step down for TEMPERATURE is to a level of 100lm which is what I observed in my test.

Interestingly, as I said previously, although my light stepped down to 100lm I never saw the indicator LED in any colour other than green.
Makes you wonder what you'd have to do to get it turn red?


----------



## Trevtrain

ArcticHighlander said:


> If it kicked in after just being on high for 5 mins, it sounds like you have a defective light.



More posts coming through now suggest that the light isn't defective. Seems they have altered the production model a little since Knight_Light's original tests. 5 to 6 mins seems to be the point where all of the tailstanding tests start to reach stepdown.


----------



## bradthebold

Trevtrain said:


> The instructions are not as clear as they could be IMO. The way I read it, the 25% step down you are talking about is only for low VOLTAGE. The step down for TEMPERATURE is to a level of 100lm which is what I observed in my test.
> 
> Interestingly, as I said previously, although my light stepped down to 100lm I never saw the indicator LED in any colour other than green.
> Makes you wonder what you'd have to do to get it turn red?



Under warning indication in the instructions, there's a separate picture for temperature warning. You get 3 flashes once a second for warning and indicator color. Green is 65˚, yellow is 70˚, orange is 75˚, orange-er is 80˚. Above 80˚ is critical level and it flashes twice per second and the indicator light is red. The voltage warnings only flash once insetad of three times.

For warning levels, it says it reduces output by 25%. Critical level reduces it to 100lm. Mine flashed once a second green, but it appeared to drop it to 100lm like the critical level should. It should only drop to ~750lm which would be much better. So if it is dropping to 100lm at the 65˚C warning level, that is defective according to their instructions.

I tested again while holding it the whole time and it made it to 6m5s before it stepped down. It was quite warm, getting close to unholdable near the head.


----------



## Trevtrain

bradthebold said:


> Under warning indication in the instructions, there's a separate picture for temperature warning. You get 3 flashes once a second for warning and indicator color. Green is 65˚, yellow is 70˚, orange is 75˚, orange-er is 80˚. Above 80˚ is critical level and it flashes twice per second and the indicator light is red. The voltage warnings only flash once insetad of three times.
> 
> For warning levels, it says it reduces output by 25%. Critical level reduces it to 100lm. Mine flashed once a second green, but it appeared to drop it to 100lm like the critical level should. It should only drop to ~750lm which would be much better. So if it is dropping to 100lm at the 65˚C warning level, that is defective according to their instructions.



I wonder if we have the same instructions or whether they have been revised too?


----------



## bradthebold

Trevtrain said:


> I wonder if we have the same instructions or whether they have been revised too?



I am using the ones currently posted online. At least the warning part of it is the same as the instructions included in my box as well. There's a "Battery Warning Indication" picture and a "Temperature Warning Indication" picture right next to it.

I misread it again though. It isn't supposed to do anything in warning mode, so it can rise through the colors of the warning mode. It should flash 5 times for temperature in warning mode and 3 times for voltage, but not change output level. Or 3 times for temperature and 1 time for voltage. It says both, I'm not sure which is right, but neither should reduce output.

In critical level, it will flash once for voltage and drop output by 25%. It will flash 3 times for temperature and drop output to 100lm.

So it's confusingly worded and I misread it, but my light flashed 3 times and the indicator turned green, which should signify the warning level. It drops output at this point though, which it shouldn't. It shouldn't drop output until the indicator flashes red twice a second and is in critical mode.

Edit: So my understand is the only time output should be reduced for temperature is when it is in critical mode above 80˚C. The light will flash 3 times and the indicator light will flash red twice per second. The only indicator light color I have seen it green once per second but my light is stepping down anyways, so something is wrong.

So it should go warning level green once per second, then yellow, then orange, then dark orange, then red critical level twice per second, then step down. Mine is not progressing through the colors and is stepping down 15˚C too soon.


----------



## bradthebold

Ok, I have fully figured it out now. You have to use the picture and the words together to have any hope of understanding. So just for temperature, when it hits the warning level of 65˚C the main light will flash 5 times and the indicator light will flash green 3 times, once per second. It will then progress through the warning colors with the same pattern. When it reaches >80˚C, the main light will flash 5 times and the indicator light will flash red 3 times, twice per second. Then the output will drop to 100lm.


----------



## Trevtrain

bradthebold said:


> I am using the ones currently posted online. At least the warning part of it is the same as the instructions included in my box as well. There's a "Battery Warning Indication" picture and a "Temperature Warning Indication" picture right next to it.



Ditto



bradthebold said:


> I misread it again though. It isn't supposed to do anything in warning mode, so it can rise through the colors of the warning mode. It should flash 5 times for temperature in warning mode and 3 times for voltage, but not change output level. Or 3 times for temperature and 1 time for voltage. It says both, I'm not sure which is right, but neither should reduce output.



Agreed - I think. As I said, the instructions don't seem all that clear



bradthebold said:


> In critical level, it will flash once for voltage and drop output by 25%. It will flash 3 times for temperature and drop output to 100lm.



Which it seems to be doing - except that there is no evidence it has reached "critical" as the LED is still green.



bradthebold said:


> So it's confusingly worded and I misread it, but my light flashed 3 times and the indicator turned green, which should signify the warning level. It drops output at this point though, which it shouldn't. It shouldn't drop output until the indicator flashes red twice a second and is in critical mode.



Hmmm... If this is the case then it certainly seems to be stepping down a little soon doesn't it. Mine was the same.



bradthebold said:


> Edit: So my understand is the only time output should be reduced for temperature is when it is in critical mode above 80˚C. The light will flash 3 times and the indicator light will flash red twice per second. The only indicator light color I have seen it green once per second but my light is stepping down anyways, so something is wrong.
> 
> So it should go warning level green once per second, then yellow, then orange, then dark orange, then red critical level twice per second, then step down. Mine is not progressing through the colors and is stepping down 15˚C too soon.



Well, mine has the same behaviour so I guess it comes down to how you interpret the instructions. You are correct in the sense that I can't see how the light would ever reach the "red" critical level if it is stepping down while the indicator is still green.

Still, I'm not convinced there is a "fault" per se as the only person who seems to have not experienced this is Knight_Light. It would be nice if an Armytek rep stepped in here to clarify things but perhaps they wan't to keep their interactions to the CPFM threads.

Knight_Light - don't want to hijack your thread so if you feel like commenting or even contacting Armytek on this "stepdown vs colour" issue that would be great.


----------



## ArcticHighlander

Trevtrain said:


> More posts coming through now suggest that the light isn't defective. Seems they have altered the production model a little since Knight_Light's original tests. 5 to 6 mins seems to be the point where all of the tailstanding tests start to reach stepdown.



If they have they have not changed their specs on their web site. They still advertise 1hr 6min at high output: "*Output levels and runtimes: 1010 lm (1h 6min), *550 lm (2h 48min), 250 lm (7h), 115 lm (15h), 30 lm (50h), 7 lm (9d), 0.5 lm (100d), 2 Strobes." If it continually cuts power and steps down at only 5-6 minutes on high power the information provided is completely false. It only has a runtime of 5-6 minutes on high, not 1hr 6min. This production run must either be defective or they are swindling their customers. Many based their decision to buy this light based on its long available runtime on high. Fudging their lumens ratings is just misleading; this is blatant falsehood.


----------



## petr9999

Reading the instructions through-fully, the light IS defective. The features include low voltage indicator (which works) and a high temperature indicator. 

The light is supposed to blink 3 times in DIFFERENT colors, while the tempnature is higher than 65C, so either they set the critical point to 65C without second thought, or the temperature warning does not work

Edit: I might be imaging it, but i think i just saw it flash yellow, maybie the 100lm cutoff is at 70c?


----------



## Knight_Light

Trevtrain said:


> The irony of this b&w photocopy is that it refers to a diagram to indicate how the colour of the LED indicates temperature and voltage.


 That actually is pretty funny and I couldn’t help myself but chuckle. LOL



Trevtrain said:


> In response to comments about thermal issues, I decided to run a quick tailstanding test in Turbo mode. Results as follows:
> 
> I don't have an IR thermometer so descriptions of "quite warm" or "hot" are purely subjective and based on how the light felt when touched briefly to the palm of my hand.
> 
> Ambient temp 22C
> The light was tailstanding on a coffee table in living room - no fan or breeze of any kind.
> I began the test using the Panasonic cell supplied with the light as part of the "bundle" - resting voltage 4.14V
> 
> At 3 min mark, the head is quite hot to touch but doesn't burn hands
> At 5 min mark, the head is too hot to comfortably hold but still no warning from Indicator light
> 5.53 stepped down for 15 seconds or so and then resumed - (main beam gave 3 quick flashes upon stepdown
> 6.39 stepped down
> 6.51 resumed
> (Whole body of light by now quite warm)
> 7.37 stepped down
> 7.49 resumed
> 8.16 stepped down
> 8.38 resumed
> 8.55 stepped down
> 9.10 resumed
> 9.32 stepped down
> 9.50 resumed
> 10.15 stepped down
> 10.34 resumed
> 10.59 stepped down
> 11.18 resumed
> 11.41 stepped down
> 12.03 resumed
> 12.24 stepped down
> 
> I stopped the test at about 12mins 30sec as I felt I had enough data. At this point, the whole body of light was very warm. The head was very hot. When I removed the battery it was wam to the touch but less so than the body of the light.
> 
> Final resting battery voltage 3.94V
> 
> At no time during the test did I notice a change in colour of the LED indicator light.
> 
> I will be interested to see how the thermal issues pan out when I am walking or moving about. Realistically, given the visual difference between Max and Main (or what some are calling Turbo and High) I can't immediately think of a situation where I'd need to run it at maximum for an extended period anyway.
> 
> Hope this is of help.


 From what I am seeing on these posts, it seems to me that they lowered the temperature threshold for the production model. On one hand it is really a shame because to get an hour on Turbo is pretty awesome (even though in my opinion it’s useless most of the time), on the other hand the temperatures that I recorded were getting extremely high (in my opinion), and I have to admit that my own personal comfort level was slightly tested (utilized a complete face shield when taking temperature at the head).


----------



## Knight_Light

Trevtrain said:


> I wonder if we have the same instructions or whether they have been revised too?


 The latest instructions are probably on the website, in PDF format. I know they definitely have the manual of there, it's linked in my review, whether it is the latest or not I do not know (my guess is that it probably is).


----------



## Knight_Light

Trevtrain said:


> Still, I'm not convinced there is a "fault" per se as the only person who seems to have not experienced this is Knight_Light. It would be nice if an Armytek rep stepped in here to clarify things but perhaps they wan't to keep their interactions to the CPFM threads.
> 
> Knight_Light - don't want to hijack your thread so if you feel like commenting or even contacting Armytek on this "stepdown vs colour" issue that would be great.


 I do not think you are hijacking the thread. You guys are discussing valid points about the headlamp. Until I get my production model you guys are actually ahead of me with hands-on experience at this point.

Right now I am waiting for Armytek to respond to a few emails. I am assuming that they are swamped right now responding to you guys so my emails are probably not a priority at this point (rightfully so in my opinion).


----------



## RedForest UK

ArcticHighlander said:


> If it continually cuts power and steps down at only 5-6 minutes on high power the information provided is completely false.




The thing is that it doesn't always do that, it's temperature based rather than timer. So while in a warm room it will step down after 5 minutes, outside in colder temperatures it could run for much longer or even the full hour. Armytek listed the capabilities of the light, they can't be expected to vary their specs according to specific usage scenarios.


----------



## Knight_Light

ArcticHighlander said:


> If they have they have not changed their specs on their web site. They still advertise 1hr 6min at high output: "Output levels and runtimes: 1010 lm (1h 6min), 550 lm (2h 48min), 250 lm (7h), 115 lm (15h), 30 lm (50h), 7 lm (9d), 0.5 lm (100d), 2 Strobes." If it continually cuts power and steps down at only 5-6 minutes on high power the information provided is completely false. It only has a runtime of 5-6 minutes on high, not 1hr 6min. This production run must either be defective or they are swindling their customers. Many based their decision to buy this light based on its long available runtime on high. Fudging their lumens ratings is just misleading; this is blatant falsehood.


 I don’t think that they are fudging their lumen ratings just because they are not quoting them in OTF fashion. I definitely think that it is probably confusing to a lot of people and a different standard should be adopted. The ANSI standard is somewhat goofy also. Like I said in previous posts it should be lux @ 1m and [email protected] 20m (or some other agreed-upon distance), but good luck trying to get manufacturers on board with this.

As far as the light thermal protection being tripped I don’t think the lights are defective or that it is a swindle. It seems they simply lowered the threshold. Remember most manufacturers high outputs are limited by time this one is limited by temperature. So if you can keep the light cool enough it will run longer on Turbo.


----------



## Trevtrain

ArcticHighlander said:


> If they have they have not changed their specs on their web site. They still advertise 1hr 6min at high output: "*Output levels and runtimes: 1010 lm (1h 6min), *550 lm (2h 48min), 250 lm (7h), 115 lm (15h), 30 lm (50h), 7 lm (9d), 0.5 lm (100d), 2 Strobes." If it continually cuts power and steps down at only 5-6 minutes on high power the information provided is completely false. It only has a runtime of 5-6 minutes on high, not 1hr 6min. This production run must either be defective or they are swindling their customers.


 
I suppose you could see it that way. 
But perhaps could you show me any other manufacturer that quotes runtimes on anything other than battery capacity and current draw. Not to mention those with "timed stepdowns" or blatant bold-print warnings NOT to run the light on High for more than a few minutes. 

I'm not trying to apologize for Armytek but would you rather they just took out the thermal cutoff like most of the other cheaper high-powered lights so you could run it to destruction? Remember, these are tailstanding tests on Max output with no active cooling so you need to keep it a little bit real.



ArcticHighlander said:


> Many based their decision to buy this light based on its long available runtime on high. Fudging their lumens ratings is just misleading; this is blatant falsehood.



Can you show me where they quoted this long runtime with no cooling? Did you read and understand that thermal stepdown was used _before _you bought the light?
The only claim I saw of an uninterrupted runtime on Max was Knight_Light's test where he has clearly stated he thought the heat generated was probably excessive anyway. He also made it clear that his was a pre-production model for reveiw and that the final version may be different.

My comment about the light not being defective was simply in the spirit of stopping one member from worrying he had a faulty light when in fact there seem to be other people getting the same results.


----------



## petr9999

I went to my local armytek dostributor today, and they were quite clueless as well... I am wondering if i should write an email to amrytek as well? So they know that this is not an isolated issue...


----------



## Trevtrain

Knight_Light said:


> From what I am seeing on these posts, it seems to me that they lowered the temperature threshold for the production model. On one hand it is really a shame because to get an hour on Turbo is pretty awesome (even though in my opinion it’s useless most of the time), on the other hand the temperatures that I recorded were getting extremely high (in my opinion), and I have to admit that my own personal comfort level was slightly tested (utilized a complete face shield when taking temperature at the head).



This is how I read the situation as well. I would prefer they err on the side of caution anyway. 

The bigger shame is that they seem to have lowered the threshold without altering the circuitry controlling the indicator LED. The fact that we now don't get the yellow-to-red warning before stepdown is a valid point for criticism even if it doesn't really affect the day to day operation of the light.

But in the end I have to re-iterate that _in my opinion_ this tailstanding test is really not indicative of typical real-world usage.


----------



## Knight_Light

Trevtrain said:


> The bigger shame is that they seem to have lowered the threshold without altering the circuitry controlling the indicator LED. The fact that we now don't get the yellow-to-red warning before stepdown is a valid point for criticism even if it doesn't really affect the day to day operation of the light.


 +1


----------



## RedForest UK

It seems like they simply lowered the threshold for temperature protection kicking in to 65 or 70 celsius, but didn't change the temperatures at which the colour LEDs blink at. I have certainly never seen anything other than green in temperature indication. That is a bit of an oversight, and I think they may have gone a bit over the top in the magnitude of the drop itself.

My personal opinion is that the drop down from turbo should be to a higher level than 100 lumens, but for longer, to allow temperature to slowly drop without a massive sudden loss in output. However, there are not many times I would _need_ turbo, and when I tested it outside on a warm night it didn't drop out of it for at least 5 minutes of continuous use, so in real life I don't think it's such an issue. If it does ever drop-down a quick double click takes you back to the main modes anyway.


----------



## paja-jojo

I made another thermal test - i submerged the headlamp in a glass of watter and the lamp hold 1h and 5 mins on max with the original battery - no thermal protection kicked in.
So the problem is really in the temperature and the way the lamp is cooling.
If i use the lamp on 550lm - it newer reaches the 65°C threshold - it would be nic not to drop the intensity from MAX to 100lm but only to 550lm.


----------



## petr9999

the problem is, i bought this light with the intention of using it on max as a bicycle light... I just tried standing the light on max right under the A/C unit which is blowing cool air, and it steped down after 15 mins or so!


----------



## Knight_Light

petr9999 said:


> the problem is, i bought this light with the intention of using it on max as a bicycle light... I just tried standing the light on max right under the A/C unit which is blowing cool air, and it steped down after 15 mins or so!


 Why would you pick this particular headlamp as a bicycle light? When you can get lights with bigger reflectors, bigger battery capacity, and better thermal management.


----------



## petr9999

i use it as a headlamp and edc as well, I bought this light because it promised a nicer beam _check_ and higher output with no stepdown _​see above


_I debated whether to get the Fenix BT20 bike light instead, but i use the light on a bike for only around 25% of the time


----------



## Trevtrain

So in the interests of science, I have conducted another test.

It's now just after 10pm here. This is an *outdoor* tailstanding test. Light is sitting on a chair in the driveway with a decent airflow across it.

Ambient temperature is 18C and there is a gusty breeze blowing. Again, I have no IR equipment so results are subjective.
Same Panasonic cell as earlier today - recharged and with a resting voltage of 4.16V

At 3 min mark the head is warm and the body somewhat cooler At 5 min mark it is definitely warmer but not uncomfortable to touch in any way. Indicator light still blinking normally
At 10 min mark, I can still grip the head comfortably though it is now what I would call quite warm. Indicator light still normal

At 15 mins, no obvious change that I could detect. Body of light has increased in temperature and is no doubt helping to shed heat
At 30 mins I decided to stop the test as we seemed to have reached equilibrium and I didn't see the need to run any longer. Indicator LED still normal slow green flash.

Resting battery voltage 3.65V

My conclusions:

The heatsinking on the headlamp seems to be very well-done considering size and output. Remember, we are not dealing with a TN31 here but a tiny light that fits into the palm of your hand. The fact that the whole body warms as the light heats up indicates to me that the thermal path is well-engineered and performing its job properly. 

I'll be interested in re-testing during summer when the ambient night temperatures can sometimes exceed 30C but for the moment I am very satisfied that this thermal stepdown "problem" won't be an issue for me in daily use.

In the event of a blackout, I would consider that the 550lm mode would provide more than enough light for ceiling bounce and others have reported no stepdown issues at this level.

Make of these results what you will.


----------



## petr9999

I will try again tonight while walking the dog  BTW, Currently its around 30C outside with really low humidity, this might be a part of the reason....


----------



## Trevtrain

petr9999 said:


> the problem is, i bought this light with the intention of using it on max as a bicycle light... I just tried standing the light on max right under the A/C unit which is blowing cool air, and it steped down after 15 mins or so!



You would need to look at how the mount might affect the airflow and cooling but in my opinion you'd need to be riding on a very hot night and/or at a snail's pace to run into thermal issues on a bike.
I'm not well-versed on the Fenix light you mentioned but I've seen other bike lights that advise to manually turn down the output to a lower mode if not moving.

The beam is great for flood but don't expect any real throw to illuminate distant objects at speed. I would personally use another light with a spot beam as well.


----------



## RedForest UK

petr9999 said:


> the problem is, i bought this light with the intention of using it on max as a bicycle light... I just tried standing the light on max right under the A/C unit which is blowing cool air, and it steped down after 15 mins or so!



Ah, ok. I understand your frustration with the lower temperature stepdown now. However I would think that with the airflow on a bike it should have no problems maintaining turbo. Mine was certainly fine on a run yesterday (around 8mph, 20 celsius, very little wind), so at cycling speeds of 10-20mph I wouldn't see you having any issues at all unless it was crazily hot.

I suggest actually taking it out on a ride and seeing if there's any problem. If so, then return it, if not then be happy with your new headlamp


----------



## Knight_Light

Trevtrain said:


> At 3 min mark the head is warm and the body somewhat cooler At 5 min mark it is definitely warmer but not uncomfortable to touch in any way. Indicator light still blinking normally
> At 10 min mark, I can still grip the head comfortably though it is now what I would call quite warm. Indicator light still normal
> 
> At 15 mins, no obvious change that I could detect. Body of light has increased in temperature and is no doubt helping to shed heat


 You do realize by touching the headlamp you are taking heat away from the headlamp effecting the tests (not a gripe just pointing it out).




Trevtrain said:


> At 30 mins I decided to stop the test as we seemed to have reached equilibrium and I didn't see the need to run any longer. Indicator LED still normal slow green flash.


 You couldn’t hold out for another 40 minutes? LOL 

Now you know what I had to go through when doing the lower level runtime tests. 




Trevtrain said:


> In the event of a blackout, I would consider that the 550lm mode would provide more than enough light for ceiling bounce and others have reported no stepdown issues at this level.


 I would never consider running this headlamp at 550 lm during a blackout. The amount of brightness increase from 250 lm is not that significant but the ability to continue using the light significantly increases with a lower output. Like stated before, for me the perfect level on this headlamp is 250 lm and 30 lm. Love those 2 levels.


----------



## Knight_Light

RedForest UK said:


> Mine was certainly fine on a run yesterday (around 8mph, 20 celsius, very little wind), so at cycling speeds of 10-20mph I wouldn't see you having any issues at all unless it was crazily hot.


 Can you elaborate on your running experience, as others have asked me about this topic in the past (so that we have another data point). For the few runs that I took this headlamp I found it to be quite adequate for the job. Fairly steady in the headband with no flop. Good illumination at the 250 lm level.


----------



## ArcticHighlander

paja-jojo said:


> Imade another thermal test - i submerged the headlamp in a glass of watter andthe lamp hold 1h and 5 mins on max with the original battery - no thermalprotection kicked in.


 



Trevtrain said:


> Can you show me where they quoted this long runtime with no cooling?


 
I guess Armytekbased their run time numbers on keeping your head submerged under water for anhour and 5 minutes while wearing it. Clearlytheir numbers are correct then. Possiblyalso if you are mountain biking at minus 70 degrees with a stiff wind in theAntarctic.


----------



## Trevtrain

Knight_Light said:


> You do realize by touching the headlamp you are taking heat away from the headlamp effecting the tests (not a gripe just pointing it out).



Yep, didn't hold it per se, just gripped it for a few seconds to feel the temperature and then let it go again. Best I can do without IR equipment.




Knight_Light said:


> You couldn’t hold out for another 40 minutes? LOL



Sitting out in the dark with my laptop on my knees - sure I _could have_ but I was also concerned about the risk of blinding my neighbour if he turned into our driveway after work and was smacked in the face by a ruddy great high beam. 



Knight_Light said:


> Now you know what I had to go through when doing the lower level runtime tests.



Sure, and I think the majority of us here are appreciative of the work you've done.








Knight_Light said:


> I would never consider running this headlamp at 550 lm during a blackout. The amount of brightness increase from 250 lm is not that significant but the ability to continue using the light significantly increases with a lower output. Like stated before, for me the perfect level on this headlamp is 250 lm and 30 lm. Love those 2 levels.



Agreed that 550 is overkill but I was more making the point that you could do it if you wanted to. Kind of in response to some of the negative comments regarding not being able to tailstand at Max indoors and trying to think of a scenario where anyone would actually need to.
The 250lm setting is _very _nice.
I'd maybe like to see something in between 7 and 30 but overall, the choice of levels seems pretty good. I haven't had much chance to use it outdoors for anything useful yet however.


----------



## Trevtrain

ArcticHighlander said:


> I guess Armytekbased their run time numbers on keeping your head submerged under water for anhour and 5 minutes while wearing it. Clearlytheir numbers are correct then. Possiblyalso if you are mountain biking at minus 70 degrees with a stiff wind in theAntarctic.



I'm sorry you seem to be so unhappy with your purchase. 
Seriously dude - mountains.....molehills......


----------



## RedForest UK

ArcticHighlander said:


> I guess Armytekbased their run time numbers on keeping your head submerged under water for anhour and 5 minutes while wearing it. Clearlytheir numbers are correct then. Possiblyalso if you are mountain biking at minus 70 degrees with a stiff wind in theAntarctic.



Or in a slight breeze on a warm night. Anyway, the numbers reflect the efficiency, at least they aren't misrepresenting that with a stepdown and measuring runtime with almost the whole run at below max output.



Knight_Light said:


> Can you elaborate on your running experience, as others have asked me about this topic in the past (so that we have another data point). For the few runs that I took this headlamp I found it to be quite adequate for the job. Fairly steady in the headband with no flop. Good illumination at the 250 lm level.



Yes I was very impressed, the beam was great; perfect for illuminating everywhere that you need to see. The headstrap is really good too, much more secure than zebralight. For perspective the Wizard pro hardly moved at all, whilst even a smaller H51 with a fully tightened headstrap bounces so much as to be imo practically unusable.

I have settled on considering the OTF outputs as 5/35/100/200/420/820. 

The 35 lumen mode was fine for walking, though I prefer the 100 lumen one generally for the sake of comfort (higher illumination giving faster processing speed and less effort when looking out for obstacles etc). 200 is good for running, with the 400 as a good bright mode when you want to see everything clearly. 

The 820 lumen turbo mode was frankly just for fun, very impressive and gave the impression of daylight wherever you looked. This impression being aided I'm sure by the 5500k tint with what I consider noticably above average CRI for a cool tint. 

I didn't encounter the stepdown from turbo mode even at walking pace for a few minutes, with virtually no breeze and temperatures which are about as hot as they get here at night (20 celsius).


----------



## bradthebold

There are no excuses for the thermal stepdown issue. The instructions say when the light flashes green that is the beginning of warning mode and you have another 15+˚C before you reach critical mode where the light steps down. Instead, the light is just stepping down at the beginning of warning mode, effecting eliminating any warning mode. If this was an intentional change, then that is absolutely being deceptive leaving the instructions saying what they say. What the instructions say and what actually happens and very different. 15˚C is a huge difference and apparently the difference between stepping down after 5 mins with no warning and never stepping down.

Saying to use a lower mode or hope there is a significant enough breeze outside are not solutions, they are excuses. The instructions say one thing and the light act significantly different. They are either being deceptive, too careless to change the instructions, or all of our lights are defective.

Even if you don't care about it stepping down, they eliminated the temperature warning mode too. Now you get no warning or any indication of how hot the light is, it just steps down as its first and only warning.


----------



## RedForest UK

All our lights _are_ defective in that sense. They dropped the thermal stepdown to a lower level and forgot to also change the colour LED warnings. No excuse for that, but I'm sure it wasn't deliberate.

The lowering of the thermal stepdown level itself however is a different issue, and it is still high enough that the light won't drop out of turbo in normal usage (outdoors). 

Just how big of a problem losing the colour warning LEDs is up to you.


----------



## bradthebold

RedForest UK said:


> All our lights _are_ defective in that sense. They dropped the thermal stepdown to a lower level and forgot to also change the colour LED warnings. No excuse for that, but I'm sure it wasn't deliberate.
> 
> The lowering of the thermal stepdown level itself however is a different issue, and it is still high enough that the light won't drop out of turbo in normal usage (outdoors).
> 
> Just how big of a problem losing the colour warning LEDs is up to you.



That is assuming there's a significant enough wind outside when you want to use it. There isn't always a breeze so that the light will function. Even if, that's just another compromise. The light shouldn't step down until 80˚C under any external conditions. Even if you personally don't care that it steps down 15˚C lower than it claims, it is still performing significantly different than advertised.


----------



## jonathanluu2

Trevtrain said:


> mountains.....molehills......



Haha that reminds me of Crush from Finding Nemo. Speaking of mountains. Took the Wizard out on the bike trails and it illuminates the trails quite nicely. I will hopefully get on the trails this weekend and get some beamshots. I dont have a IR thermometer either, but I think i can give you a temperature comparison (Pardon my USA Units).

Ambient temperature: 80F and "humid" would be an understatement (although if my i correctly recall from heat transfer, humid air would be *better *for cooling a hot, dry object).

Scalding hot water for me is ~130F based on my past food services jobs.

I can grasp the light and tolerate the temperature (though it is approaching my limit) after it has been running at steady-state at 550 lumen mode (Mode 4) with no air flow. This supports KL's temperature tests.

*After riding with the light on turbo for ~30 minutes I grasped the headlamp and it was about the same temperature as it running on Mode 4.* This tells me that the Turbo can easily run until the battery is exhausted without "thermal intervention". Cant really tell you the speed I was going, but I am not decrepit 

petr, I think this light will serve your function as a bike light.


----------



## Knight_Light

Trevtrain said:


> Sure, and I think the majority of us here are appreciative of the work you've done.


 Thank you for the acknowledgment. 





Trevtrain said:


> The 250lm setting is very nice.
> I'd maybe like to see something in between 7 and 30 but overall, the choice of levels seems pretty good. I haven't had much chance to use it outdoors for anything useful yet however.


 
When I was discussing with Armytek switching mode 2 from 70 lm to something higher so that there would be a more perceived level between mode 1 and mode 2 they enlightened me on some of the limiting factors to choosing light levels.

If I understood correctly it goes something like this. When designing the electrical circuit for this headlamp you can’t just pick whatever level you want for a particular mode. The choices are limited to certain ratios based on the other output levels. So in my case the next choice was 115 lm they could not have made it 100 or 125.

So if they put a level between 7 and 30 you would have to sacrifice one of the other levels.


----------



## Knight_Light

RedForest UK said:


> I have settled on considering the OTF outputs as 5/35/100/200/420/820.


 I could live with those numbers. 



RedForest UK said:


> The 35 lumen mode was fine for walking, though I prefer the 100 lumen one generally for the sake of comfort (higher illumination giving faster processing speed and less effort when looking out for obstacles etc). 200 is good for running, with the 400 as a good bright mode when you want to see everything clearly.


 I really wish I had the 115 lm mode. Unfortunately mine is 70 lm and is almost indistinguishable from mode 1. 



RedForest UK said:


> This impression being aided I'm sure by the 5500k tint with what I consider noticably above average CRI for a cool tint.


 +1


----------



## Knight_Light

RedForest UK said:


> All our lights are defective in that sense.


 Not mine.  




RedForest UK said:


> They dropped the thermal stepdown to a lower level and forgot to also change the colour LED warnings. No excuse for that, but I'm sure it wasn't deliberate.


 +1


----------



## ArcticHighlander

Trevtrain said:


> I'm sorry you seem to be so unhappy with your purchase.
> Seriously dude - mountains.....molehills......


There is a big difference between the advertised 1hr 6min and 5min actual at normal temperatures/conditions. Armytek advertised this run time, Knight Light tested the preproduction light and confirmed that it worked this long in a normal indoor environment, and Armytek continues to advertise this run time. It is supposed to work as advertised under the normal range of temperatures that a head lamp would be expected to be used. Using your logic a watch claimed to be accurate would meet its specs even if it didn't work at all; it's still very accurate twice a day and they didn't specifically claim anything more.


----------



## RedForest UK

ArcticHighlander said:


> There is a big difference between the advertised 1hr 6min and 5min actual at normal temperatures/conditions. Armytek advertised this run time, Knight Light tested the preproduction light and confirmed that it worked this long in a normal indoor environment, and Armytek continues to advertise this run time. It is supposed to work as advertised under the normal range of temperatures that a head lamp would be expected to be used. Using your logic a watch claimed to be accurate would meet its specs even if it didn't work at all; it's still very accurate twice a day and they didn't specifically claim anything more.



No, that doesn't make sense. Firstly, I would consider 'normal' temperatures/conditions for turbo to be used as being outside (and probably moving quite fast to need that much light), in which case it isn't a problem.

Secondly, the light does not have a 5 minute runtime on turbo, it genuinely does have a 1hr 5 minute runtime. It just also has thermal protection, which is a completely different issue. 

No manufacturer rates runtime with account of external factors such as temperature, but in ideal conditions. Many even have a timed stepdown at a set time which always kicks in, they then run it in one go and give a runtime based on the 5 minutes of turbo and the majority of the runtime at a much lower level. Armytek haven't done that, they have listed the actual genuine time for which this light will run in turbo mode before the battery is drained. The fact that sometimes thermal protection will kick in before that is irrelevant with regards to runtime.

The watch analogy is in no way representative of this situation.


----------



## petr9999

knight, want to trade? 

for the reason of tailstading on max, i first found out when i was soldering something and the light in the room was kind of dim... i took my new flashlight and lit up the ceiling with the whole room(yes i could have used it as a headlamp, but i didnt want to!)

i just went rockclimbing, and used it for around 20mins at max in a cool cave with no issues, it was very warm to touch at the end but not hot.

Recap: The light is perfectly usable, but is missing a feature, high temperature warning, it would also make a lot more sense if it stepped down to 550lumens instead of 100lm


----------



## Knight_Light

petr9999 said:


> knight, want to trade?


 Negative ghostwriter, I like having one-of-a-kind.  




petr9999 said:


> i just went rockclimbing, and used it for around 20mins at max in a cool cave with no issues, it was very warm to touch at the end but not hot.


 I rock climb and I could not imagine using more then the 250 lm setting, unless maybe you are belaying in an awkward situation. If you are doing big wall climbing and are route spotting you would need a thrower anyway.


----------



## petr9999

i didnt use it for the actual climbing, but the cave climbed into, it was around 300m long, and pitch dark


----------



## Trevtrain

RedForest UK said:


> No, that doesn't make sense. Firstly, I would consider 'normal' temperatures/conditions for turbo to be used as being outside (and probably moving quite fast to need that much light), in which case it isn't a problem.
> 
> Secondly, the light does not have a 5 minute runtime on turbo, it genuinely does have a 1hr 5 minute runtime. It just also has thermal protection, which is a completely different issue.
> 
> No manufacturer rates runtime with account of external factors such as temperature, but in ideal conditions. Many even have a timed stepdown at a set time which always kicks in, they then run it in one go and give a runtime based on the 5 minutes of turbo and the majority of the runtime at a much lower level. Armytek haven't done that, they have listed the actual genuine time for which this light will run in turbo mode before the battery is drained. The fact that sometimes thermal protection will kick in before that is irrelevant with regards to runtime.
> 
> The watch analogy is in no way representative of this situation.



+100

These points have been explained several times now but Arctichighlander, for whatever his own personal reasons, can't or won't acknowledge them.

Flogging........dead horse........

In the interests of harmony in the thread I plan to just let this particular battle go. We'll have to agree to disagree.


----------



## RedForest UK

Ok, I've just taken my Wizard pro out for a half hour walk to learn more about the stepdown behaviour. It was 18 degrees celcius ambient with little to no breeze.

When walking at a gentle pace the light held turbo mode for a good 20 minutes, then when I stopped for under a minute it dropped down to the '100' lumen mode (interestingly I confirmed that this mode is below the Main 2 '115 lumen' 100 OTF level, and so OTF is likely to be around 80). I actually didn't find the drop to be so much that it was hard to see with the 100 lumen mode, that was better than I'd imagined, and the low level allowed a quick return to turbo. However a drop to the Main 3 of 200/'250' lumens would be preferable and a good compromise imo.

After that, a return to walking maintained turbo for another few minutes before it dropped out and back a couple more times. At that point I switched down to Main 4 400/'550' lumens and that was fine for the rest of the walk. Personally I actually prefer to use Main 4 with the turbo in reserve as a decent selective boost in power when it is needed. I find that my eyes adjust to the 400 and 820 modes so much that they are virtually indistinguishable when on constantly in terms of actual usefulness for seeing things. However, when adjusted to the 400/'550' mode, a sudden boost up to 820/'1010' lumens gives a welcome increase in power if used for a short period. The click, click, hold mechanism for temporarily activating turbo from whatever mode previously used is very useful for using the light in this way.

When the light did step down, it was hot enough that I wouldn't want to cycle through the modes on it, but a quick double click was fine. I personally would have preferred for them to have dropped the critical level to somewhere a bit higher, and of course to have dropped the colour LEDs warning indicator levels in line with this; perhaps 70 celsius as critical and all colour LEDs 10 below the levels still mentioned on the instruction booklet.

Overall, I'm not too frustrated with what Armytek have done, but think it could be better. If they do 'fix' it then I may consider getting a replacement, but it may not really be worth the hassle of sending it back to them for the purposes of general use.


----------



## Trevtrain

RedForest UK said:


> Ok, I've just taken my Wizard pro out for a half hour walk to learn more about the stepdown behaviour. It was 18 degrees celcius ambient with little to no breeze.
> 
> When walking at a gentle pace the light held turbo mode for a good 20 minutes, then when I stopped for under a minute it dropped down to the '100' lumen mode



So with a little airflow it performed OK but with none at all it quickly heated up. My outdoor test at the same ambient temperature was tailstanding - I am assuming yours was mounted in the headband which I would expect to impede the cooling a bit.



RedForest UK said:


> ......I actually didn't find the drop to be so much that it was hard to see with the 100 lumen mode, that was better than I'd imagined, and the low level allowed a quick return to turbo. However a drop to the Main 3 of 200/'250' lumens would be preferable and a good compromise imo.



Yes, they do seem to have been overly conservative in forcing it to drop this low. A drop to something a little higher than 100lm would certainly be preferable.



RedForest UK said:


> After that, a return to walking maintained turbo for another few minutes before it dropped out and back a couple more times. At that point I switched down to Main 4 400/'550' lumens and that was fine for the rest of the walk.



So it does need a breeze at something more than walking pace to cope properly on Max. Again, with the headband probably contributing to the heating.



RedForest UK said:


> Personally I actually prefer to use Main 4 with the turbo in reserve as a decent selective boost in power when it is needed. I find that my eyes adjust to the 400 and 820 modes so much that they are virtually indistinguishable when on constantly in terms of actual usefulness for seeing things.



Which is inline with what the "low lumen lovers" have been saying all along about how the eyes simply adjust to the amount of light present and we are effectively just wasting power. Having done a few little jobs outside last night myself, I would think that even the Main 4 would be far too high for most general walking about. It really lights up a huge area even at that setting. Of course it will depend on other factors such as ambient light and how far you need to see.
(But I still can't imagine being comfortable with under 30 - Main 1 - in anything but the darkest of conditions.)



RedForest UK said:


> I personally would have preferred for them to have dropped the critical level to somewhere a bit higher, and of course to have dropped the colour LEDs warning indicator levels in line with this; perhaps 70 celsius as critical and all colour LEDs 10 below the levels still mentioned on the instruction booklet.



Agreed. They seemed to overlooked this and perhaps "rushed" the final production version out in response to our many requests and "are we there yet" nagging over in CPFM. Functionally the light performs as well as I expected _as a light_ but the temperature warning issues documented here do detract slightly from the overall package. 



RedForest UK said:


> Overall, I'm not too frustrated with what Armytek have done, but think it could be better. If they do 'fix' it then I may consider getting a replacement, but it may not really be worth the hassle of sending it back to them for the purposes of general use.



Well, for me, the cost of return postage will make this a non-issue unless Armytek offers to cover it. In fairness, I wouldn't really expect this but others may see it differently. I'm aware that the testing on the pre-production model doesn't match exactly with what I got but I guess that's always the risk of being an "early adopter" in any technology.


----------



## RedForest UK

Trevtrain said:


> So with a little airflow it performed OK but with none at all it quickly heated up. My outdoor test at the same ambient temperature was tailstanding - I am assuming yours was mounted in the headband which I would expect to impede the cooling a bit.



Well I would say that it was getting hot at walking pace, but remaining just below the threshold for temperature protection, so when I stopped that just pushed it over the edge. I think if the threshold had been 5 degrees higher then it may not have reached it. Yes, it was mounted on the headband, which I agree will slightly insulate the body.

Yeah, the Main 4 level is really too high for just walking about. It's even effective at impressing as much as the turbo mode if your eyes are adjusted even slightly to the dark, whilst retaining the turbo in reserve 

In all honesty, 18 celsius at night is rare here and only seen for a couple of weeks at most each summer. The rest of the time you are looking at sub 10 and often sub 0 temperatures past 10pm, so for most of the year I don't think thermal stepdown will be anything to bother about.


----------



## psychbeat

Any word on the neutral/warms?

I gues I could look over @cpfmp...


----------



## RedForest UK

RedForest UK said:


> I have settled on considering the OTF outputs as 5/35/100/200/420/820.



Ok, having found my previous ceiling bounce placements lacking (with regards to bias dependent upon beam profile), I have today re-tested all the lights I have to hand (40 of them with varying beam profiles) in a new position which I think has eliminated any such bias.

After that testing the Wizard Pro's OTF output ratings that I have come to are: 6.4/41.6/108.8/201.6/428.8/880, so about 6.5/40/110/200/430/880.

I apologise for any confusion caused by the continued revision of these numbers, but I am now happy and confident in the ones given in this post.


----------



## Trevtrain

RedForest UK said:


> Ok, having found my previous ceiling bounce placements lacking (with regards to bias dependent upon beam profile), I have *today re-tested* all the lights I have to hand (*40 of them *with varying beam profiles) in a new position which I think has eliminated any such bias.



Now when you make a statement like _that _you just gotta _know _someone's gonna ask you to publish results don't you? :laughing:


----------



## RedForest UK

Ha ha, I will. But not tonight, it's nearly 1am here and I'm going to bed. There are also issues with max image size rules for CPF as it's too much effort to type it all in manually, so I like to link to an image version of the spreadsheet.


----------



## Trevtrain

RedForest UK said:


> Ha ha, I will. But not tonight, it's nearly 1am here and I'm going to bed. There are also issues with max image size rules for CPF as it's too much effort to type it all in manually, so I like to link to an image version of the spreadsheet.



Mate, after testing 40 lights I think you'd better get some rest! 

If you do get around to it, linking to something like Google Docs or DropBox would probably be the best option. And of course, in another thread! 

I'll look forward to reading all about it.


----------



## tobrien

RedForest UK said:


> Ha ha, I will. But not tonight, it's nearly 1am here and I'm going to bed. There are also issues with max image size rules for CPF as it's too much effort to type it all in manually, so I like to link to an image version of the spreadsheet.



greta installed a plugin that automatically resizes the image on the forum


----------



## tony613

From post #266


toysareforboys said:


> Let me know what they say, I also didn't receive the battery or charger.
> 
> Did you have to pay any customs fee's to FedEx when you picked up your package?
> 
> -Jamie M.




Jamie (and others that may have been following this sub-topic),

I was the one that didn't receive the battery and charger, and had waited many days without a response. Although I didn't receive a response email until after 4 attempts and 7 days of trying, when I finally did receive one, they also included a tracking number, and the battery and charger had shipped _the day before _they responded. I received the battery and charger today, without having to pay customs fees. I have to say that Armytek's customer service has earned my faith and belief that they would stand by their 10 year warranty, if needed.


----------



## ArcticHighlander

RedForest UK said:


> Ok, having found my previous ceiling bounce placements lacking (with regards to bias dependent upon beam profile), I have today re-tested all the lights I have to hand (40 of them with varying beam profiles) in a new position which I think has eliminated any such bias.
> 
> After that testing the Wizard Pro's OTF output ratings that I have come to are: 6.4/41.6/108.8/201.6/428.8/880, so about 6.5/40/110/200/430/880.
> 
> I apologise for any confusion caused by the continued revision of these numbers, but I am now happy and confident in the ones given in this post.


Great tests and much appreciated. I'm surprised that Armytek actually has a lower claimed lumens on the one setting: 30 vs 41.6. Have you done a test of the H600 or SC600MKII? I'm very curious as to how they all compare in an independent test.


----------



## tony613

I conducted the following test and believe my light (Wizard Pro XM-L2 70:120) behaved according to the directions _for this specific test_, as I understand them. Note that the battery voltage at the conclusion of my test was 3.52 volts. According to the directions, 3.2 volts is the first low voltage level so in my case, it was temperature and not voltage that caused the light's warning behavior. 

According to directions in the _Warning Indications_ section,
_
When the voltage drops, the headlamp main LED flashes 3 times, *and when the temperature rises - 5 times. *_(shown below)
_Additionally, the color LED shows the hazard level. _
_Warning level indicated once a second in corresponding color: voltage - 1 flash, temperature - 3 flashes. _
_Critical level indicated twice a second in corresponding color: voltage - 1 flash (light output decreases by 25%), 
*temperature - 3 flashes (light output decreases to 100 lumen).* _(also shown below)

Additionally, when looking at the directions in the color picture in Knight_Light's first post under _Temperature Warning Indication_, it appears that 149°F or 65°C is a green/amber mixture (compared to the all green color in the _State Indication_ image directly above it. During my testing I absolutely saw both the amber and green led's in the switch simultaneously. 



The test was conducted beginning with the light in turbo mode. The ambient temperature was ~78°F or 25.5°C.
The light remained in turbo for at least 15 minutes before alternating between its lower and upper modes.
Below where it states "output dropped", I have no way to verify it went down to 100 lumens but it was noticeably decreased. Likewise, when the output increased, I am not certain to what level. However it appeared to me to be the same respective levels throughout the test.
Twice during the test the light's temperature dropped below the temperature threshold of 65°C while the output was alternating. After the second time at 21:00 however, the light heated up enough given the ambient temperature to stay above the threshold.
The light's temperature apparently never increased to or above the second warning level of 70°C or 158°F.
Battery voltage at end of test was 3.52 volts (still above first low voltage level).



*Time**Main Light Output**Switch Behavior*20:43Output dropped3 fast green and amber flashes, repeating 
~25 seconds output returned to higher level3 fast green and amber flashes, repeating 20:45Output dropped3 fast green and amber flashes, repeating 
~25 seconds output returned to higher level*1 slow green flash every 4 seconds (apparent temperature drop below threshold)*20:47*5 flashes from main light*, output dropped *(apparent temperature rise above threshold)*3 fast green and amber flashes, repeating
~25 seconds output returned to higher level3 fast green and amber flashes, repeating 20:50Several flashes on high, output dropped3 fast green and amber flashes, repeating 
~25 seconds output returned to higher level3 fast green and amber flashes, repeating 20:54Output dropped3 fast green and amber flashes, repeating 
~25 seconds output returned to higher level3 fast green and amber flashes, repeating 20:56Output dropped3 fast green and amber flashes, repeating 
~25 seconds output returned to higher level3 fast green and amber flashes, repeating 20:58Output dropped3 fast green and amber flashes, repeating 
~25 seconds output returned to higher level*1 slow green flash every 4 seconds (apparent temperature drop below threshold)*21:00*5 flashes from main light*, output dropped *(apparent temperature rise above threshold)*3 fast green and amber flashes, repeating 
~25 seconds output returned to higher level3 fast green and amber flashes, repeating 21:02Output dropped3 fast green and amber flashes, repeating 
~25 seconds output returned to higher level3 fast green and amber flashes, repeating 21:03Output dropped3 fast green and amber flashes, repeating 
~25 seconds output returned to higher level3 fast green and amber flashes, repeating 21:05Output dropped3 fast green and amber flashes, repeating
~25 seconds output returned to higher level3 fast green and amber flashes, repeating 21:08Output dropped3 fast green and amber flashes, repeating 
~25 seconds output returned to higher level3 fast green and amber flashes, repeating 21:10Output dropped3 fast green and amber flashes, repeating 
~25 seconds output returned to higher level3 fast green and amber flashes, repeating 21:11Output dropped3 fast green and amber flashes, repeating 
~25 seconds output returned to higher level3 fast green and amber flashes, repeating 21:13Output dropped3 fast green and amber flashes, repeating 
~25 seconds output returned to higher level3 fast green and amber flashes, repeating 21:14Output dropped3 fast green and amber flashes, repeating 
~25 seconds output returned to higher level3 fast green and amber flashes, repeating 21:16Output dropped3 fast green and amber flashes, repeating 
~25 seconds output returned to higher level3 fast green and amber flashes, repeating 21:17Output dropped3 fast green and amber flashes, repeating 
~25 seconds output returned to higher level3 fast green and amber flashes, repeating 21:18Output dropped3 fast green and amber flashes, repeating 
~25 seconds output returned to higher level3 fast green and amber flashes, repeating21:20Output dropped3 fast green and amber flashes, repeating 
~25 seconds output returned to higher level3 fast green and amber flashes, repeating 21:22Output dropped3 fast green and amber flashes, repeating 
~25 seconds output returned to higher level3 fast green and amber flashes, repeating 21:23Output dropped3 fast green and amber flashes, repeating 
~25 seconds output returned to higher level3 fast green and amber flashes, repeating


----------



## RedForest UK

Trevtrain said:


> Mate, after testing 40 lights I think you'd better get some rest!
> 
> If you do get around to it, linking to something like Google Docs or DropBox would probably be the best option. And of course, in another thread!
> 
> I'll look forward to reading all about it.





ArcticHighlander said:


> Great tests and much appreciated. I'm surprised that Armytek actually has a lower claimed lumens on the one setting: 30 vs 41.6. Have you done a test of the H600 or SC600MKII? I'm very curious as to how they all compare in an independent test.




I've just got around to posting them up on BLF and CPF, here's the CPF link: http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?366518-V3-Comparative-Lumen-OTF-Table&p=4247175

Here is the link to the imgur image: http://imgur.com/17zvmUL

Unfortunately I don't have an H600 or SC600 MKII, I did test the SC600 MKI though with the results at the very top of the table.


----------



## Knight_Light

tony613 said:


> I conducted the following test and believe my light (Wizard Pro XM-L2 70:120) behaved according to the directions _for this specific test_, as I understand them. Note that the battery voltage at the conclusion of my test was 3.52 volts. According to the directions, 3.2 volts is the first low voltage level so in my case, it was temperature and not voltage that caused the light's warning behavior.
> 
> According to directions in the _Warning Indications_ section,
> _
> When the voltage drops, the headlamp main LED flashes 3 times, *and when the temperature rises - 5 times. *_(shown below)
> _Additionally, the color LED shows the hazard level. _
> _Warning level indicated once a second in corresponding color: voltage - 1 flash, temperature - 3 flashes. _
> _Critical level indicated twice a second in corresponding color: voltage - 1 flash (light output decreases by 25%),
> *temperature - 3 flashes (light output decreases to 100 lumen).* _(also shown below)
> 
> Additionally, when looking at the directions in the color picture in Knight_Light's first post under _Temperature Warning Indication_, it appears that 149°F or 65°C is a green/amber mixture (compared to the all green color in the _State Indication_ image directly above it. During my testing I absolutely saw both the amber and green led's in the switch simultaneously.
> 
> 
> 
> The test was conducted beginning with the light in turbo mode. The ambient temperature was ~78°F or 25.5°C.
> The light remained in turbo for at least 15 minutes before alternating between its lower and upper modes.
> Below where it states "output dropped", I have no way to verify it went down to 100 lumens but it was noticeably decreased. Likewise, when the output increased, I am not certain to what level. However it appeared to me to be the same respective levels throughout the test.
> Twice during the test the light's temperature dropped below the temperature threshold of 65°C while the output was alternating. After the second time at 21:00 however, the light heated up enough given the ambient temperature to stay above the threshold.
> The light's temperature apparently never increased to or above the second warning level of 70°C or 158°F.
> Battery voltage at end of test was 3.52 volts (still above first low voltage level).
> 
> 
> 
> *Time*
> *Main Light Output*
> *Switch Behavior*
> 20:43
> Output dropped
> 3 fast green and amber flashes, repeating
> 
> 
> ~25 seconds output returned to higher level
> 3 fast green and amber flashes, repeating
> 20:45
> Output dropped
> 3 fast green and amber flashes, repeating
> 
> 
> ~25 seconds output returned to higher level
> *1 slow green flash every 4 seconds (apparent temperature drop below threshold)*
> 20:47
> *5 flashes from main light*, output dropped *(apparent temperature rise above threshold)*
> 3 fast green and amber flashes, repeating
> 
> 
> ~25 seconds output returned to higher level
> 3 fast green and amber flashes, repeating
> 20:50
> Several flashes on high, output dropped
> 3 fast green and amber flashes, repeating
> 
> 
> ~25 seconds output returned to higher level
> 3 fast green and amber flashes, repeating
> 20:54
> Output dropped
> 3 fast green and amber flashes, repeating
> 
> 
> ~25 seconds output returned to higher level
> 3 fast green and amber flashes, repeating
> 20:56
> Output dropped
> 3 fast green and amber flashes, repeating
> 
> 
> ~25 seconds output returned to higher level
> 3 fast green and amber flashes, repeating
> 20:58
> Output dropped
> 3 fast green and amber flashes, repeating
> 
> 
> ~25 seconds output returned to higher level
> *1 slow green flash every 4 seconds (apparent temperature drop below threshold)*
> 21:00
> *5 flashes from main light*, output dropped *(apparent temperature rise above threshold)*
> 3 fast green and amber flashes, repeating
> 
> 
> ~25 seconds output returned to higher level
> 3 fast green and amber flashes, repeating
> 21:02
> Output dropped
> 3 fast green and amber flashes, repeating
> 
> 
> ~25 seconds output returned to higher level
> 3 fast green and amber flashes, repeating
> 21:03
> Output dropped
> 3 fast green and amber flashes, repeating
> 
> 
> ~25 seconds output returned to higher level
> 3 fast green and amber flashes, repeating
> 21:05
> Output dropped
> 3 fast green and amber flashes, repeating
> 
> 
> ~25 seconds output returned to higher level
> 3 fast green and amber flashes, repeating
> 21:08
> Output dropped
> 3 fast green and amber flashes, repeating
> 
> 
> ~25 seconds output returned to higher level
> 3 fast green and amber flashes, repeating
> 21:10
> Output dropped
> 3 fast green and amber flashes, repeating
> 
> 
> ~25 seconds output returned to higher level
> 3 fast green and amber flashes, repeating
> 21:11
> Output dropped
> 3 fast green and amber flashes, repeating
> 
> 
> ~25 seconds output returned to higher level
> 3 fast green and amber flashes, repeating
> 21:13
> Output dropped
> 3 fast green and amber flashes, repeating
> 
> 
> ~25 seconds output returned to higher level
> 3 fast green and amber flashes, repeating
> 21:14
> Output dropped
> 3 fast green and amber flashes, repeating
> 
> 
> ~25 seconds output returned to higher level
> 3 fast green and amber flashes, repeating
> 21:16
> Output dropped
> 3 fast green and amber flashes, repeating
> 
> 
> ~25 seconds output returned to higher level
> 3 fast green and amber flashes, repeating
> 21:17
> Output dropped
> 3 fast green and amber flashes, repeating
> 
> 
> ~25 seconds output returned to higher level
> 3 fast green and amber flashes, repeating
> 21:18
> Output dropped
> 3 fast green and amber flashes, repeating
> 
> 
> ~25 seconds output returned to higher level
> 3 fast green and amber flashes, repeating
> 21:20
> Output dropped
> 3 fast green and amber flashes, repeating
> 
> 
> ~25 seconds output returned to higher level
> 3 fast green and amber flashes, repeating
> 21:22
> Output dropped
> 3 fast green and amber flashes, repeating
> 
> 
> ~25 seconds output returned to higher level
> 3 fast green and amber flashes, repeating
> 21:23
> Output dropped
> 3 fast green and amber flashes, repeating
> 
> 
> ~25 seconds output returned to higher level
> 3 fast green and amber flashes, repeating


Great data point. Thank you for sharing your work.


----------



## Knight_Light

RedForest UK said:


> I've just got around to posting them up on BLF and CPF, here's the CPF link: http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?366518-V3-Comparative-Lumen-OTF-Table&p=4247175
> 
> Here is the link to the imgur image: http://imgur.com/17zvmUL
> 
> Unfortunately I don't have an H600 or SC600 MKII, I did test the SC600 MKI though with the results at the very top of the table.


 This is great information thank you for sharing it. Hopefully it makes people feel a little bit more comfortable about the Armytek purchases they have made.


----------



## tony613

Knight_Light said:


> Great data point. Thank you for sharing your work.



My pleasure - thank you for sharing yours.

And RedForest, thank you for the time ("most of yesterday", according to your post) that you put in.


----------



## Knight_Light

This morning I received correspondence from Armytek. Here is some updated information for you guys. 



Someone asked what was sticking out of the TIR optic and bezel contact point. There is an O-ring (there is no compound, such as a sealer or anything) and the bezel is press fit.
They did drop the thermal protection with the production model.


----------



## petr9999

Knight_Light said:


> This morning I received correspondence from Armytek. Here is some updated information for you guys.
> 
> 
> 
> Someone asked what was sticking out of the TIR optic and bezel contact point. There is an O-ring (there is no compound, such as a sealer or anything) and the bezel is press fit.
> They did drop the thermal protection with the production model.



did they tell u what temperature they have dropped it to?


----------



## Trevtrain

petr9999 said:


> did they tell u what temperature they have dropped it to?



Or happen to mention anything about warning colours?


----------



## tobrien

petr9999 said:


> did they tell u what temperature they have dropped it to?





Trevtrain said:


> Or happen to mention anything about warning colours?



I think he and Armytek meant "drop the thermal protection with the production model." as in it's not there lol


----------



## RedForest UK

tony613 said:


> And RedForest, thank you for the time ("most of yesterday", according to your post) that you put in.



No problem, it wasn't quite most of yesterday, but a good few hours I think. I would've done it anyway though for the sake of my own curiosity


----------



## Trevtrain

tobrien said:


> I think he and Armytek meant "drop the thermal protection with the production model." as in it's not there lol



It is most definitely there - as evidenced by some of the unhappy campers in this thread. :devil:


----------



## RedForest UK

It has to be 65 celsius that they dropped it to, my light drops down just as the triple green flash starts which is the indicator for 65 degrees (I think). Then once that stops it goes back up to turbo.


----------



## tony613

RedForest UK said:


> It has to be 65 celsius that they dropped it to, my light drops down just as the triple green flash starts which is the indicator for 65 degrees (I think). Then once that stops it goes back up to turbo.



I don't currently have an IR thermometer so I couldn't measure temperature. 

However, according to my tests as stated above, that is the exact behavior I noted, and it followed the directions exactly. 

And my directions match what Knight_Light posted, except what he posted are in color. Mine are black and white which makes it impossible to tell what the green/amber/red led in the switch is supposed to do. Thankfully he posted his and my light behaved according to the directions. 

At 65°C (assumed temperature, but as directions state):
The main light should flash 5 times (*confirmed*)
The output should drop to 100 lumens (*confirmed drop*- assumed lumen output)
The switch should blink 3 fast green/amber flashes repeatedly (*confirmed*)


----------



## bradthebold

Here are my test results at 82°F ambient temperature. Measurements at the center of the top of the head and the center of the tube:

0m - 82°F head, 82°F tube

1m - 101°F head, 88°F tube

2m - 111°F head, 97°F tube

3m - 116°F head, 102°F tube

4m - 125°F head, 104°F tube

4m30s - 132°F head, 110°F tube at stepdown

Max - 136°F head, 117°F tube, center of battery 106°F

So the max temps I were able to measure were 58°C for the head, 47°C for the tube, and 41°C for the battery. My temp measurements seem consistent with Knight_Lights. Mine was probably in a hotter room though. So it must be hitting 65°C on the circuitry inside and stepping down. Knight_Lights got 23°C hotter at the head without triggering protection, for a total of 81°C without triggering the 80°C internal temp critical threshold. His must have been at least 85°C on the inside, probably higher, and still didn't stepdown.

With my test, the light steps down before hitting 60°C anywhere on the exterior of the light.


----------



## cronus

bradthebold, those numbers are very similar to what I found, although it took longer with a 70F ambient.

Question for owners: 
I have had a few complete lockups happen. Everything is tight, it just does nothing when the button is pressed, not even the red button LED. Recovery is to loosen the tailcap for 15 seconds or so.
Has anyone else that owns one seen this? 
I'm thinking this is a problem with just mine, and Armytek have already suggested to replace it (the lens has coating imperfections too), just waiting on instructions.
Edit: Just reading back now, lots of posts. I also measure around 840 lumens OTF on turbo. Sound about right since Armytek claim 1060 ish emitter lumens.
Edit2: OK, reading back I see others are having the lockup issue too. Unscrewing the tailcap, tap the button, and tighten and it's going again. I was really hoping this was just me.
Here's a pic of the other problem I have with the lens:
http://s20.postimg.org/xjju0nah9/Wizard_Pro_Lens.jpg


----------



## bradthebold

cronus said:


> bradthebold, those numbers are very similar to what I found, although it took longer with a 70F ambient.
> 
> Question for owners:
> I have had a few complete lockups happen. Everything is tight, it just does nothing when the button is pressed, not even the red button LED. Recovery is to loosen the tailcap for 15 seconds or so.
> Has anyone else that owns one seen this?
> I'm thinking this is a problem with just mine, and Armytek have already suggested to replace it (the lens has coating imperfections too), just waiting on instructions.
> Edit: Just reading back now, lots of posts. I also measure around 840 lumens OTF on turbo. Sound about right since Armytek claim 1060 ish emitter lumens.
> Edit2: OK, reading back I see others are having the lockup issue too. Unscrewing the tailcap, tap the button, and tighten and it's going again. I was really hoping this was just me.
> Here's a pic of the other problem I have with the lens:
> http://s20.postimg.org/xjju0nah9/Wizard_Pro_Lens.jpg




Yeah, I have the same lockout issue too. I've been emailing them back and forth, but it's been 4 days since the last response. That is a weird lens problem too. I would definitely get that replaced.


----------



## cronus

Thanks Brad. I do hope they respond with a method of returning. I also hope they have an answer/solution for the lockup issue. I'm really surprised a systemic issue like that could slip by and into production. Surprised to the point of believing they knew about it before release, but no way to prove that.


----------



## ArcticHighlander

cronus said:


> bradthebold, those numbers are very similar to what I found, although it took longer with a 70F ambient.
> 
> Question for owners:
> I have had a few complete lockups happen. Everything is tight, it just does nothing when the button is pressed, not even the red button LED. Recovery is to loosen the tailcap for 15 seconds or so.
> Has anyone else that owns one seen this?
> I'm thinking this is a problem with just mine, and Armytek have already suggested to replace it (the lens has coating imperfections too), just waiting on instructions.
> Edit: Just reading back now, lots of posts. I also measure around 840 lumens OTF on turbo. Sound about right since Armytek claim 1060 ish emitter lumens.
> Edit2: OK, reading back I see others are having the lockup issue too. Unscrewing the tailcap, tap the button, and tighten and it's going again. I was really hoping this was just me.
> Here's a pic of the other problem I have with the lens:
> http://s20.postimg.org/xjju0nah9/Wizard_Pro_Lens.jpg


Mine has coating imperfections on the lens similar to yours. It occurs over about a quarter of the lens surface. I'm not sure about lock out or cut off temp as I haven't really played with it yet other than to make sure it turns on and charge the battery. I'm going to have to go back to the instructions at the beginning of the thread and review them. I have tried to set the battery type but haven't had luck getting to the menu. The button is very hard to press (a real pain in the ***) and maybe I'm having difficulty pressing it rapidly enough after cycling and shut off to get it to go to menu (per written instructions).


----------



## cronus

The button is a bit firm, but hasn't been a problem for me so far.
Too bad about the lens, and troubling to know it is not just mine. Seems like they may have rushed the release of this light, and I may have rushed the purchase. 
I was hoping for performance like that in the OP regarding thermal handling, and was surprised to find the stepdown in there. That alone is not a dealbreaker for me, but the lockup and lens should be fixed.
I cannot reproduce the lockup now, it happened a lot in fast strobe before (in FStrobe, wait about 10s and turn off, wait another 4-5 and try to turn back on). 
Someone suggested to use a protected cell and select it from the config menu of the light. Before trying that, I wanted to reproduce the lockup, but I can't seem to get it to lockup up right now. I could get locked up it in a couple of minutes before...
Edit: It just locked up. Now I'll reprogram it for protected and retry.


----------



## Trevtrain

*I can make mine lockup too*



cronus said:


> Question for owners:
> I have had a few complete lockups happen. Everything is tight, it just does nothing when the button is pressed, not even the red button LED. Recovery is to loosen the tailcap for 15 seconds or so.
> Has anyone else that owns one seen this?
> I'm thinking this is a problem with just mine, and Armytek have already suggested to replace it (the lens has coating imperfections too), just waiting on instructions.
> 
> Edit2: OK, reading back I see others are having the lockup issue too. Unscrewing the tailcap, tap the button, and tighten and it's going again. I was really hoping this was just me.



Now that I know how to reproduce the problem courtesy of your post elsewhere, mine locks up too.
Not always, and only after running in fast strobe for a short period of time as you mentioned. Never stumbled onto it before but I seem to be able to make it lockup pretty regularly now.
Interesing.....

I had a similar problem with a Fenix MC11 last year. I reported it in this thread http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?338001-Strange-Fenix-MC11-problem
I found that when I unscrewed the tailcap with the light switched on, I couldn't get it to start again until I unscrewed the cap and held the button down to "discharge" the circuit.
The dealer in question replaced it with another unit that behaved exactly the same. After a long and frustrating exchange of ambiguous emails, I finally had that light refunded and bought an identical replacement from a local dealer. This replacement worked fine.

I don't know if I'd call this lockup a deal-breaker for me but it would be pretty annoying for anyone regularly using strobe mode. Coupled with the temperature/indicator issues it's starting to create the impression of a lack of attention to detail and insufficient testing before release of the production model.

I guess the question to ask now is has anyone had the lockup issue without using fast strobe immediately before switching it off?






EDIT: I've just made it happen in slow strobe. Can't make it happen in voltage indicator mode (yet).


----------



## cronus

*Re: I can make mine lockup too*

Well, that proposed fix of using protected cells and programming the light for protected failed on the second attempt.


----------



## ArcticHighlander

cronus said:


> The button is a bit firm, but hasn't been a problem for me so far.
> Too bad about the lens, and troubling to know it is not just mine. Seems like they may have rushed the release of this light, and I may have rushed the purchase.
> I was hoping for performance like that in the OP regarding thermal handling, and was surprised to find the stepdown in there. That alone is not a dealbreaker for me, but the lockup and lens should be fixed.



I'm feeling the same, that I shouldn't have rushed into it. I probably should have waited until it was out for a year and seen what sort of bugs it had and which, if any, had been fixed and how well Armytek handled problems. 

I did manage to get the unprotected battery mode selected but wound up with a sore forefinger (I'm a lefty) and shaky hand. Switched to my right hand and used my thumb to finish up and to turn off the state indicator. I'm very disappointed in the ergonomics compared with my h600. The button on the h600 is perfect; recessed and firm enough to prevent accidental turn on. The Armytek is not recessed and perhaps because of that they made it way too hard to press; painful, at least when first getting it set up and having to press it a lot. (Possibly mine is stiffer than some others?). 

Also, out of the box the light is extremely hard to turn in its rubber holder and is pretty much unusable as a headlamp. Even when not in the headband (which I haven't attached yet) the rubber holder distorts and bends well before the light turns so I'm sure the elastic headband would just twist and not allow the light to turn unless holding the light to your head with one hand and using the other to rotate the light. Not good if you only have one hand free. Per others I did order some grease to try to make it easier to turn. I bought one of the cheaper ones listed on CF grease and lube thread as highly rated by users for rubber and silicon gaskets (Super Lube synthetic grease, about $7 on Amazon). Still need to try it out. The h600 on the other hand is easy to rotate with one hand out of the box, yet is held in place well enough that it will not shift or rotate in its holder from any shaking or jostling.

Directly comparing the size, the Armytek is noticeably larger. It is also very noticeably heavier. Using the battery that came with the Armytek for both lights the Armytek weighed 121 grams in its holder, 142 grams with its headband and 155 with the top band as well. The h600 with battery, holder and headband weighed only 105 grams. 

In my opinion the only ergonomic advantage that the Armytek has is the inclusion of a top band which the h600 does not. The h600 holder does have a slot for a top band but you have to find something after market or make one yourself. Most people say that a top band isn't needed on the h600 because it is pretty stable but some runners feel it helps and I personally like the idea of the option of a top strap for extra stability. I might try using the one from the Armytek on the h600. 

I also prefer the light changing modes on the h600 which seem much simpler, but it may just be what I'm used to; from this thread it seems more a matter of personal taste and how you intend to use the light. But as hard to push as the button is I think it likely I would just choose one setting and never mess with it again. For me, the ergonomics of the h600 make it a far more usable light.


----------



## ArcticHighlander

bradthebold said:


> Here are my test results at 82°F ambient temperature. Measurements at the center of the top of the head and the center of the tube:
> 
> 0m - 82°F head, 82°F tube
> 1m - 101°F head, 88°F tube
> 2m - 111°F head, 97°F tube
> 3m - 116°F head, 102°F tube
> 4m - 125°F head, 104°F tube
> 4m30s - 132°F head, 110°F tube at stepdown
> Max - 136°F head, 117°F tube, center of battery 106°F
> 
> 
> So the max temps I were able to measure were 58°C for the head, 47°C for the tube, and 41°C for the battery. My temp measurements seem consistent with Knight_Lights. Mine was probably in a hotter room though. So it must be hitting 65°C on the circuitry inside and stepping down. Knight_Lights got 23°C hotter at the head without triggering protection, for a total of 81°C without triggering the 80°C internal temp critical threshold. His must have been at least 85°C on the inside, probably higher, and still didn't stepdown.
> 
> With my test, the light steps down before hitting 60°C anywhere on the exterior of the light.


 
I'm not sure what position your light was in. I tested mine based on yours with the light as it came in the rubber holder with the holder sitting flat, horizontally, similar to how it would be placed wearing it in the head band. I used the same center, top of head and center of the tube measurements with ambient temperature of 73 degrees F:

0m - 73°F head, 73°F tube, 73F battery
1m - 92°F head, 84°F tube
2m - 101°F head, 92°F tube
3m - 108°F head, 101°F tube
4m - 117°F head, 113°F tube
5m2s - 121°F head, 116°F tube at stepdown
Max - 129°F head, 124°F tube, center of battery 110°F


This is 54C max for head, 51C max for tube and 43C max for the battery. Similar results to yours. After step down it was cycling periodically between the two outputs. I obtained the maximum values by monitoring the temperatures during cycling and at one peak temperature quickly pulled and measured the temperature of the battery. (I used the battery that came with the light after charging it much earlier in the day up to 4.2v).


----------



## Trevtrain

cronus said:


> Question for owners:
> I have had a few complete lockups happen. Everything is tight, it just does nothing when the button is pressed, not even the red button LED. Recovery is to loosen the tailcap for 15 seconds or so.
> Has anyone else that owns one seen this?
> ...Unscrewing the tailcap, tap the button, and tighten and it's going again. I was really hoping this was just me.



OK, I'm now convinced you've jinxed me cronus. 

Before today I never saw any sign of a lockup.
I reproduced it first in the strobe modes - took a number of tries but happened enough to prove the fault.

Since then it has locked up 3 times under normal use. Did you help me to break it.


----------



## petr9999

I think i know what happened here... 

Zebralight is sopposed to come out with the h602 anyday now, so armytek rushed the final version so they can sell as many flashlights as possible before zebralight takes the market yet again?

seems quite plausible


----------



## Beacon of Light

*Re: I can make mine lockup too*

I notice the lockup issues I have had were always when trying to use the voltage indicator which is right after the strobe indicator.

I think I may have found another shortcoming that is of the most concern for me. Is there a way to go from Firefly 1 to firefly 2 and back? In a Zebralight I can toggle the high and low in each mode it is in. Considering I only use the low modes if this cannot be done I think I will finally have to return this as I will have no use for it considering the many trade-offs and glitches mentioned by myself and others.

Has anyone successfully returned one of these and if so did they cover return shipping?


----------



## Beacon of Light

I don't have a H600 (waiting for the H602, hopefully soon) but all your perceptions about the Armytek I agree with 100%. Button is way too hard to press and not as ergonomic as the other Zebralights that I do own (H50/H50-B/H30w/H502x2/H31/H51F/H51). I found it odd someone in here (was you you knight-light?) that actually preferred the Armytek switch to the Zebralight. I see no way in the world this can be honestly seen as an improvement over what I perceive as perfect from Zebralight. It is a recessed and soft click button which is ergonomically located in a logical place. The Armytek is awkward and way too stiff to press.

I did slather silicone grease on the inside of the rubber holder and even in the groove of the light itself and it does help, but I still prefer the Zebralight glow in the dark holder as I have never needed to lube it with anything and the lights turn in it effortlessly without being too loose.

I also prefer the modes on the ZL and they just make sense. To change modes on the fly with Armytek requires holding down the stiff button. Only problem is if you are in a higher lumen mode and want to go lower, the easiest way is to turn light off and then back on which is not very smart. I can do all this mode cycling on ZLs without ever turning the light off. 

To me this wasn't well thought out, or maybe not as well implemented as it should have been.



ArcticHighlander said:


> I'm feeling the same, that I shouldn't have rushed into it. I probably should have waited until it was out for a year and seen what sort of bugs it had and which, if any, had been fixed and how well Armytek handled problems.
> 
> I did manage to get the unprotected battery mode selected but wound up with a sore forefinger (I'm a lefty) and shaky hand. Switched to my right hand and used my thumb to finish up and to turn off the state indicator. I'm very disappointed in the ergonomics compared with my h600. The button on the h600 is perfect; recessed and firm enough to prevent accidental turn on. The Armytek is not recessed and perhaps because of that they made it way too hard to press; painful, at least when first getting it set up and having to press it a lot. (Possibly mine is stiffer than some others?).
> 
> Also, out of the box the light is extremely hard to turn in its rubber holder and is pretty much unusable as a headlamp. Even when not in the headband (which I haven't attached yet) the rubber holder distorts and bends well before the light turns so I'm sure the elastic headband would just twist and not allow the light to turn unless holding the light to your head with one hand and using the other to rotate the light. Not good if you only have one hand free. Per others I did order some grease to try to make it easier to turn. I bought one of the cheaper ones listed on CF grease and lube thread as highly rated by users for rubber and silicon gaskets (Super Lube synthetic grease, about $7 on Amazon). Still need to try it out. The h600 on the other hand is easy to rotate with one hand out of the box, yet is held in place well enough that it will not shift or rotate in its holder from any shaking or jostling.
> 
> Directly comparing the size, the Armytek is noticeably larger. It is also very noticeably heavier. Using the battery that came with the Armytek for both lights the Armytek weighed 121 grams in its holder, 142 grams with its headband and 155 with the top band as well. The h600 with battery, holder and headband weighed only 105 grams.
> 
> In my opinion the only ergonomic advantage that the Armytek has is the inclusion of a top band which the h600 does not. The h600 holder does have a slot for a top band but you have to find something after market or make one yourself. Most people say that a top band isn't needed on the h600 because it is pretty stable but some runners feel it helps and I personally like the idea of the option of a top strap for extra stability. I might try using the one from the Armytek on the h600.
> 
> I also prefer the light changing modes on the h600 which seem much simpler, but it may just be what I'm used to; from this thread it seems more a matter of personal taste and how you intend to use the light. But as hard to push as the button is I think it likely I would just choose one setting and never mess with it again. For me, the ergonomics of the h600 make it a far more usable light.


----------



## Trevtrain

Beacon of Light said:


> ....Button is way too hard to press and not as ergonomic as the other Zebralights that I do own (H50/H50-B/H30w/H502x2/H31/H51F/H51). I found it odd someone in here (was you you knight-light?) that actually preferred the Armytek switch to the Zebralight. I see no way in the world this can be honestly seen as an improvement over what I perceive as perfect from Zebralight. It is a recessed and soft click button which is ergonomically located in a logical place. The Armytek is awkward and way too stiff to press.



I have to admit that I'm another who actually likes that the Armytek switch is firm. It wouldn't suit someone who is arthritic perhaps but I feel that both the placement and feel suits me. Obviously we all have our own preferences.
Other than when "playing with a new toy" I doubt that I will be changing levels frequently so it's not like I expect to be constantly having to use the switch anyway.



Beacon of Light said:


> I did slather silicone grease on the inside of the rubber holder and even in the groove of the light itself and it does help, but I still prefer the Zebralight glow in the dark holder as I have never needed to lube it with anything and the lights turn in it effortlessly without being too loose.



Again, I guess it's personal preference. The holder is definitely firm but I don't expect to be altering it often. I'd rather it wasn't too effortless.



Beacon of Light said:


> ....To change modes on the fly with Armytek requires holding down the stiff button. Only problem is if you are in a higher lumen mode and want to go lower, the easiest way is to turn light off and then back on which is not very smart.....



Yes, you have to hold the button to change modes and doing so will cycle you through any of the four main levels. This will be the most commonly used set of levels for the majority of users.
The only time you need to turn it off and on is to access the Firefly modes or swap between the two Firefly levels. I doubt too may people will make exclusive use of the Firefly modes the way you seem to. 
Having said that, the ZL UI is exceptionally good and it would be nice to be able to toggle between F1 and F2 on the Wizard.



Beacon of Light said:


> To me this wasn't well thought out, or maybe not as well implemented as it should have been.



Having followed the development of this light in other threads, I think you are wrong about it not being well thought out. There was a lot of discussion leading up to the release and Armytek was very receptive to ideas and suggestions. They also seem to have acted on the results of testing of the pre-production units by end-users. This is not a practice I've seen any of the other big players (including ZL) engaging in.

I guess we can all find areas for improvements or changes that suit us, but those changes may spoil the appeal of the light for someone else.

I certainly agree that they seem to have made some last-minute changes to the production versions without proper checking. Not recalibrating the temperature indicator after lowering the thermal stepdown point is a bit of a sloppy mistake.
The fact that we are experiencing random lockups is a lot less acceptable.


----------



## Beacon of Light

Trevtrain said:


> I certainly agree that they seem to have made some last-minute changes to the production versions without proper checking. Not recalibrating the temperature indicator after lowering the thermal stepdown point is a bit of a sloppy mistake.
> The fact that we are experiencing random lockups is a lot less acceptable.



The random lockups is more than just a sloppy mistake, it is an out and out defect. I will be returning mine ASAP.


----------



## RedForest UK

I genuinely do like the switch placement and 'stiffness', it seems more ergonomic when mounted on the headband. I also like that it's quite hard to rotate in the headband.

I also can't replicate the 'lock-up' after quite a few tries on both strobe and voltage indicator, so I don't think that it affects every model.

Yes, I am still disappointed about them forgetting to re-calibrate the colour LED temperature indicators. But that is my only real gripe with what is otherwise a fantastic light imo.


----------



## Beacon of Light

Just curious how you have the light orientated is the switch on the top or bottom when in the rubber holder? I have tried it both ways and I am always expecting the switch to be on the end and not on the tube itself. Even retraining myself to use the button on the bottom, it is awkward. 

Not sure how anyone would prefer the stiff and hard button on the Armytek. Are the people that like them not familiar with the ones on Zebralights? To me the Zebralights are the best of the best, and I am disappointed only Zebralight has switches like this, as I wish ALL lights had this type of soft switch. I fail to see if people that have and use a Zebralight switch would prefer the Armytek one. I fail to see this. There is absolutely nothing that can be improved upon the Zebralight switch at all. The placement, the size, the amount it is recessed are all PERFECT! No way to accidentally activate it in a pocket.

Also I think if people are switching modes a lot would not prefer a stiff hard button switch like the Armytek. Same goes for people who adjust the headlamo in the holder a lot, they will not like how hard it is to turn. Even with silicone grease my ZL is more fluid in a holder than the Armytek. In fact I have never had a headlamp where I wished it was harder to rotate in the holder. Well maybe the Icon Irix I or II as that holder it does rotate a little too freely but that was remedied with shims.



RedForest UK said:


> I genuinely do like the switch placement and 'stiffness', it seems more ergonomic when mounted on the headband. I also like that it's quite hard to rotate in the headband.
> 
> I also can't replicate the 'lock-up' after quite a few tries on both strobe and voltage indicator, so I don't think that it affects every model.
> 
> Yes, I am still disappointed about them forgetting to re-calibrate the colour LED temperature indicators. But that is my only real gripe with what is otherwise a fantastic light imo.


----------



## bradthebold

I have never used the strobe modes and mine still locks up. The last response I got from their support was Tuesday night and I've replied with 3 emails since then. Their customer service is terribly slow, at best, and looking to be just terrible in general.

Beyond that (and the stepping down and lack of warning mode and too tight of headband holder), I really like the light though. It's bright, I love the beam floodiness and brightness. Most of actually just using the light is good, but all of the issues are starting to outweigh the positives. This is my first light though, so I don't have anything to compare it to. I feel like this is floodier than an H600 but would have more throw than an H602 and I like the 5500K color, so I wouldn't want to compromise the main specs of the light to try something else.


----------



## Trevtrain

Beacon of Light said:


> Just curious how you have the light orientated is the switch on the top or bottom when in the rubber holder? I have tried it both ways and I am always expecting the switch to be on the end and not on the tube itself. Even retraining myself to use the button on the bottom, it is awkward.



Switch up, right hand side. Thumb on bottom of head, index finger on top and squeeze. If I was left-handed I'd probably still do it this way.



Beacon of Light said:


> Not sure how anyone would prefer the stiff and hard button on the Armytek. Are the people that like them not familiar with the ones on Zebralights? To me the Zebralights are the best of the best, and I am disappointed only Zebralight has switches like this, as I wish ALL lights had this type of soft switch. I fail to see if people that have and use a Zebralight switch would prefer the Armytek one. I fail to see this. There is absolutely nothing that can be improved upon the Zebralight switch at all. The placement, the size, the amount it is recessed are all PERFECT!



So I'm starting to get the impression that despite what we've said, you fail you see how anyone could like the Armytek switch?





Incidentally, do you have this much heartache when you have to change cars?


----------



## Beacon of Light

I'm actually stating to think anyone that would prefer a hard stiff switch may have some kind of mental condition as it makes no sense.

And yes I hate changing cars. 



Trevtrain said:


> Switch up, right hand side. Thumb on bottom of head, index finger on top and squeeze. If I was left-handed I'd probably still do it this way.
> 
> 
> 
> So I'm starting to get the impression that despite what we've said, you fail you see how anyone could like the Armytek switch?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Incidentally, do you have this much heartache when you have to change cars?


----------



## RedForest UK

I have mine oriented the same as Trevtrain, with the switch on top at the right and use my index finger and thumb to squeeze the head.

I am actually wondering if there may be variation between units as I find the stiffness of my switch, whilst quite a bit harder than my H501w, to be about the same as on my SC600.

I don't dislike Zebralight's switches, but think that the positioning is good and probably better on the Armytek (albeit a little difficult to adjust to if you are used to a Zebralight), and that the stiffer switch is a good choice to avoid accidental activation without being too hard to press.


----------



## spelunkik

I guess I may as well add some of my personal opinions to the discussion.

The bad:

I have some sort of strange surface defect on the optic of my light, which is slightly less than half the total area of the optic. It kind of looks like the rainbow effect produced by a thin layer of oil. It is not really noticeable when I look at the optic directly. As it does not seem to affect the color or output of the headlamp, I'm considering this a quality issue I can live with. To be honest, I kind of think it looks cool, but if you're dead-set on having a crystal clear optic then I doubt you'd find it "cool". 

It is slightly heavier than my h600w, but not significantly so. The difference to me is almost imperceptible. 

The half and half:

I'm not usually one to be bothered by such things, but the blinking indicator light is annoying! I am very pleased they give me the option to turn it off.

I received my light, but not the charger/battery. After some conversation with customer support, I was given the battery and charger. I guess it's not really their fault for the most part; I did not use the checkout process correctly.

I haven't played around with it too much yet, but long enough to get a good feel for it. I haven't experienced some of the issues others have reported, but I admit I am slightly concerned my light will possess or develop some of those issues. The good news is, it sounds like none of these issues, if I encounter them, will leave me hanging in the dark with no way to neutralize/avoid the issue. If I do encounter one of these issues, at least I have the warranty to fall back on.

The good:

It seems well-built. I plan on using this for caving, so a beefy light is a plus.

The switch requires some pressure to activate, but I think this is a good thing for a switch that is not recessed. If it were soft, I would be bumping it accidentally all the time while caving, and maybe even damaging it. A recessed switch might be a better design, but I'm fairly certain this must have been some sort of design tradeoff. Perhaps they will find a way to include a recessed switch in a future iteration without sacrificing something else.

I wish it produced more light (don't we always want more light?), but I feel it is truly squeezing as much light out of this emitter as I could reasonably hope for. When running this light on turbo and my H600w on turbo in a cave, my Armytek washes out the H600w almost completely. I was very impressed, especially given the fact that the Armytek is not as concentrated as the Zebra.

Others may think the thickness of the rubber mount and the resistance to rotation to be a negative, but for my application I wouldn't want it any other way. While caving, my light is constantly bumped and tugged on, so the more resistance to tugging and bumping, the better. I guess it depends on your usage.

I really like this beam profile. It is an excellent transition from hotspot to spill to dark.

Overall impressions:

Judging from my own experience and from what others in this thread have shared, I think Armytek shows promise, but they certainly have room for improving on product quality and perhaps one or two things to learn about design compromise and optimization. That said, I feel much the same about Zebralight (my H600w utterly died on me while I was caving, and I had to send it back after a lethargic response from Zebra). Personally, I feel that not a single product or service in the world is perfect, and that it's a question of how imperfect it is, and what imperfections I am willing to accept. In the case of my Wizard Pro (YMMV), my particular light seems to have relatively few imperfections. I am not at all disappointed with my purchase. This light fills a good gap in my headlamp collection that my H600w can not provide, and I bought it for a very reasonable price. For me, the good far outweighs the bad. The ten year warranty is a great thing to have in case I ever need to use it, but if initial impressions are worth trusting at all, I don't expect I'll ever need it.


----------



## tony613

I was getting ready to respond with the statement that I must be one of the lucky ones because I haven't been able to make it lock up using the strobe modes, and I don't seem to have any of the other problems previously discussed, with my light. 

Just now I saw it sitting on the kitchen counter with the red led in the switch blinking once per second, which is a low voltage indication. I picked it up and pressed the switch and the blinking stopped - but the light did not go on. Took the battery out and tested the voltage: 4.16 volts on DMM which is not surprising because I recharged the battery yesterday, and only used it briefly. Put the battery back in and it turned on as expected in all modes, and the switch is flashing green once every four seconds. Note this is the battery that was (eventually) sent to me from Armytek and seems to be behaving well. 

I've used this light on my bicycle in strobe mode for about 45 minutes to an hour straight and didn't experience any lockups, until now.

EDIT:
I know this is a different occurrence of the lock up issue, but it got me thinking. I wonder if the problem is related to the light's voltage monitoring circuitry and programming. Up until yesterday, I was using a protected battery and had the light set to "protected battery" mode. The problem only occurred - so far and in my case - with the "unprotected battery" mode set. If the light thinks the voltage too low, it won't turn on. It's probably a safe bet that others have had the issue even with "protected mode" set, but I still wonder how the light would react if there is a problem in that monitoring system, in either mode. 

Simply speculation and discussion fodder (because we _need_ more discussion on this light ), 'cause I can't do a thing about it - 'cept send it back.


----------



## Tuna

I have had similar lock up problems experienced by others and am extremely disappointed in this light. I cannot rely on a light that is unreliable. I emailed Armytek 4 days ago and have not heard a peep from them. Maybe I have just been lucky, but I have bought a ton of lights from many different light manufacturers and never seen this kind of problem before.


----------



## cronus

So many comments today! 
I like the ergonomics, the button is not too stiff for me.
I wear it with the button on the top right. If the button was on the end/top of the light, I would not have bought it, too awkward.
I find the silicone holder too tight and it is very difficult to turn the light. It could be a little easier to adjust. I end up using two hands, which is annoying. It has relaxed a bit after several ins and outs of the holder (I EDC with the clip and probably swap to headlight once per day).
I have had one lockup today, I was not trying to either. I don't think you need to activate strobe at least once to begin seeing this issue.

As for Armytek service: 
My first email about the lens coating and lockup was responded to quickly with a classic 'blame the customer' response; *they actually tried to tell me it was "due to incorrect maintenance"*.
I responded asking how cleaning the threads (the only regular maintenance described in the manual) will fix my lens or prevent the light from locking up. 
I got a response the same day stating "we should replace the lens or replace the light" and "Later I'll inform you about more details". This was Wed. July 17.
I replied thanking them for the fast responses and looking forward to the details.
I have not heard anything form them since. I'll be sending a follow up email.


----------



## ArcticHighlander

spelunkik said:


> I have some sort of strange surface defect on the optic of my light, which is slightly less than half the total area of the optic. It kind of looks like the rainbow effect produced by a thin layer of oil.


 Cronus & I have both reported the same defect in the coating on our lenses. (He posted a link to a photo of it). I assume it is a common problem but most probably have not looked closely at theirs.


----------



## ArcticHighlander

RedForest UK said:


> I am actually wondering if there may be variation between units as I find the stiffness of my switch, whilst quite a bit harder than my H501w, to be about the same as on my SC600.


I think you may be right. I work out with hand weights for a half hour everyday and most days spend 2 to 4 hours pulling out thickets of vetch. I have fairly strong hands. But just holding the switch down through several cycles had my fingers quivering from the strain and shaky for awhile after. I had to switch hands to complete the settings.


----------



## petr9999

Try pushing the button with your nail, mine is not overly stiff in the center, its about double the stiffness of the zebralight, but thats good, because its not recessed


----------



## Trevtrain

RedForest UK said:


> I have mine oriented the same as Trevtrain, with the switch on top at the right and use my index finger and thumb to squeeze the head.
> 
> I am actually wondering if there may be variation between units ......



I'm pretty sure I'm not imagining it but I find my switch is nowhere as stiff now as when I first got it. 
It seems to have softened up a bit with use.

Has anyone else found this?




petr9999 said:


> Try pushing the button with your nail, mine is not overly stiff in the center, its about double the stiffness of the zebralight, but thats good, because its not recessed



I don't need to use my nail on mine, but you are quite correct about finger placement making a big difference. You do get the best results with your fingertip in the center of the button rather than off to the side slightly.

So is my switch getting "better" or am I simply developing "finger memory" for the correct position?

The three lockups (no strobe) in the past 10 minutes is getting beyond a joke though.


----------



## RedForest UK

Trevtrain said:


> I'm pretty sure I'm not imagining it but I find my switch is nowhere as stiff now as when I first got it.
> It seems to have softened up a bit with use.
> 
> Has anyone else found this?
> 
> I don't need to use my nail on mine, but you are quite correct about finger placement making a big difference. You do get the best results with your fingertip in the center of the button rather than off to the side slightly.
> 
> So is my switch getting "better" or am I simply developing "finger memory" for the correct position?
> 
> The three lockups (no strobe) in the past 10 minutes is getting beyond a joke though.




You may be right, I think mine has softened up too. Finger placement made a big difference when it first arrived, if I wasn't pressing dead centre then it would click but not turn on. Now it seems fine from whatever angle and really quite easy to press.

I'm sorry to hear about so many with 'lock-up' issues, mine has never had that problem even with me trying to replicate it. Hopefully it'll stay that way.


----------



## cronus

I have had several responses from Sandra at Armytek today. They acknowledged the lockup issue, but claim it does not happen during normal use. Also the reports they have are three in total, so they think it only occurs on a very few units. This may be true, I cannot say. I didn't tabulate how many are reporting the issue on here.
She asked about battery types, whether they are protected or unprotected. Their theory was that the protected cell PCB was interfering with normal operation. I blew a hole in that theory because I only use unprotected cells (I did reproduce it once with a protected cell though, just to try a previously posted workaround).
If it is a firmware issue, I think they can reprogram the light through the battery tube (I see five or six contact pads on the driver PCB, my Viking X has them too).
I'll keep you posted.


----------



## Trevtrain

Thanks cronus.
I posted in the Marketplace thread and asked them for a response rather than submitting an email. 

I'm not sure what would constitute "abnormal use" - are you?
I too am using the unprotected cell supplied with the light.

I noticed the contact pads as well but as there is nothing I can do with them it doesn't matter much to me whether it is hardware or firmware that is causing the problem. We just need more time for testing and some hard data to try to figure out what is going on.
I imagine Armytek are still a bit mystified at the moment themselves.

Let's just hope they do the right thing by us when they find the problem and a way to fix it.


----------



## tony613

Thanks cronus, I'm glad you responded with this info. 

I also experienced the issue with an unprotected cell. And thus far there are only three reports? Well I'll be adding the fourth right now. Maybe others that are experiencing the problem should do the same.


----------



## cronus

Hi Trevtrain, you are correct, the solution method (firmware or hardware replacement) from our perspective is trivial. I just find it interesting that they include this capability on their lights because they are basically sealed units.
I consider my usage normal. Even the testing I did using strobe I would consider normal for someone wanting to activate strobe modes. That is why they are there, right? This part of the response from them troubles me because they say 'normal use' with absolutely no quantification on what constitutes normal use. In my experiences, it's a lead in to trying to explain away or down-play real problems. 
I also hope Armytek do the right thing and address this issue. Acknowledging the issue exists (even with the 'normal use' disclaimer) is a good first step.


----------



## ArcticHighlander

tony613 said:


> Thanks cronus, I'm glad you responded with this info.
> 
> I also experienced the issue with an unprotected cell. And thus far there are only three reports? Well I'll be adding the fourth right now. Maybe others that are experiencing the problem should do the same.


Could someone repeat what steps to go through to test our lights to see if we have the same problem?


----------



## cronus

Here's what I do to reproduce it, and what I sent to Armytek:
a. Turn on the light.
b. Click four times to activate fast strobe.
c. Wait between 5 and 10 seconds, then turn the light off.
d. Wait another 5-10 seconds and press the button and see if the light turns on
About 1 in 10 attempts will cause the light to lock up.

The odds of occurrence seems more likely than 1 in 10 now, for me anyway.


----------



## Trevtrain

ArcticHighlander said:


> Could someone repeat what steps to go through to test our lights to see if we have the same problem?



Firstly, follow the instructions given by cronus in post #475

If you find the light locks up don't forget that you can unscrew the tailcap slighty and press the switch for a second or so to clear the lock. When you screw the tailcap up tight again it should work normally - until the next time.

I found that after the lockups began in fast strobe, they also started to appear at other random times. But the symptoms so far have always been the same - the light just won't turn on.


----------



## tony613

Sometimes it takes days for an email response, sometimes minutes. In this case, I received a very prompt and reassuring response from Sandra at customer support: 

The problem you describe has occurred recently in some samples of
Armytek Wizard and at this moment our engineers are trying to find its
origin. But all I can say now is that's not a common problem for all
Wizard headlamps, but some rare failures we can't explain.
...
No matter how this whole story ends we will replace the defective 
headlamps to all our customers, who experienced it.

It appears if you are satisfied with the light in general, and don't need to rely on it before a solution is provided, Armytek is prepared to stand by their product once a solution is found, should you choose to wait.


----------



## canibalplatipus

Had mine lock up three times over the weekend while camping. I didn't use the strobe at all. I didn't notice a pattern either not that I was looking for one 

Sent from my SGH-I747M using Tapatalk 2


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## cronus

Thanks tony613, glad to hear a similar (and even more direct) tone from Armytek regarding replacing the light.
My light started doing it the first day I received it, others seem to have it occurring later on, but once it occurs it seems to occur more often thereafter. Curious behaviour. :thinking:
Edit: Armytek are claiming this is limited to a few units that have been reported to them, which may be true. Anyone who is experiencing this and are concerned about it should make sure to report it to Armytek so they are fully aware of the scope of the failures, and to get your name on the list for replacement/repaired lights.


----------



## paja-jojo

I have two lights, normal and wide.. on the wide it happend on the first day, than after i find it happenning often i tryied to reproduce it on the normal without success. Than my brother borowed the headlamp for a day and on first occasion it did happen to him on normal usage. After that it occured quite often on both lamps. It seems to me, that when you first reproduce it, you somehow enable it to happen often. I can replicate it at will in about 5 minutes of clicking on both lights with protected and unprotected batteries. It also happens on normal use (while not using any strobe or voltage meter) - i have the indicator led turn off - maybe this is a factor. Also i think that it is much more probable to happen if you turn the light off in the time it is off - to explain it: when you have strobe or voltage meter, there is a pulse (or a pause) when the light is not on - if you turn the light off in this time you increase the probability of it locking up.


----------



## Trevtrain

paja-jojo said:


> IIt seems to me, that when you first reproduce it, you somehow enable it to happen often.



Yep, even though this makes no sense at all it does seem to be a pattern.



paja-jojo said:


> It also happens on normal use (while not using any strobe or voltage meter)



+1



paja-jojo said:


> i have the indicator led turn off - maybe this is a factor.



Great observation! I'd totally forgotten that I'd turned this off around the same time I started testing the strobe and getting the problem.



paja-jojo said:


> Also i think that it is much more probable to happen if you turn the light off in the time it is off - to explain it: when you have strobe or voltage meter, there is a pulse (or a pause) when the light is not on - if you turn the light off in this time you increase the probability of it locking up.



Ummm.... I tried to experiment with this in line with theories about current pulses and residual charge but despite quite a few attempts I couldn't draw any conclusions.


----------



## cronus

I have done several cycles with the indicator light on, and no lockup so far. Enough tests that I would be able to reproduce it several times.
That would be one strange bug!
Edit: I disabled the indicator LED and it locked up on my first attempt.


----------



## paja-jojo

Trevtrain said:


> Ummm.... I tried to experiment with this in line with theories about current pulses and residual charge but despite quite a few attempts I couldn't draw any conclusions.



It's just a feeling - when trying to replicate it i think it was more probable, but as it is nearly random, wher this problem occurs it is hard to prove it factually.
I tryied to replicate now and got 2x lockup in last 10 minutes both on powering off when the light is off, i'll now try to replicate it in times, when the light is on - which is happening as well because it happens also on the normal (continual) usage.


----------



## cronus

I reported the indicator LED component of the issue to Armytek. We'll see how they deal with this now that there is a 'workaround' of sorts...
For me, I don't know what is more annoying; the indicator LED or the lockup. 
Edit: I was too hasty to call this a workaround. I cannot use the light with the indicator enabled. See my comment below.


----------



## paja-jojo

cronus said:


> I reported the indicator LED component of the issue to Armytek. We'll see how they deal with this now that there is a workaround...
> For me, I don't know what is more annoying; the indicator LED or the lockup.


I consider this not a workaround - i need the indicator turned off as the intensity of the indicator led is to high, would it be just 1/4 the intensity i would consider it usable. Unless there is some paint that can be aplyed to the button rubber and is save and does not void waranty.


----------



## cronus

I agree completely, it's an unacceptable workaround for me too. Also, I was hasty to say it is a workaround, because it may still occur in that mode, just not occurred yet.
Since I EDC this, I have to have the green LED off. The green flash is too bright for use at night as a bedside light.


----------



## RedForest UK

cronus said:


> I have done several cycles with the indicator light on, and no lockup so far. Enough tests that I would be able to reproduce it several times.
> That would be one strange bug!
> Edit: I disabled the indicator LED and it locked up on my first attempt.



Wow yeah, I hadn't switched the indicator light off since I received the light. But sure enough after I turned it off and completed the process previously described it locked up on around the 3rd attempt.. and then again on the fourth.

Could it be that there is some residual power in the circuit which would normally be used to power the state indication LED but when that is switched off somehow interferes with sensing the button press?

Maybe there could also be a link between the fact that the indicator LED flashes every four seconds, whilst the lock-up seems to require the light having been switched off for around five?


----------



## Dhobi

I played with my Wizard Pro two days with indicator ON with no lockout.
Then I switched the indicator OFF, accessed specialty (decimal/strobe) mode about 20 times and the lock out occured in almost all cases. Sometimes immediately after jumping out from decimal/strobe, sometimes after several switching through main/firefly modes.
Guess I need to send it back to Armytek for replacing but may be it would better to wait a while to be sure they fixed the bug in production. Dont want to receive replacement unit with the same problem...

EDIT: Above mentioned test was conducted with Armytek protected cell. Then I used Panasonic 3100 unprotected (supplied with the light) and during about 5 minutes playing, including accessing specialty modes, I noticed just one lockout. (Wish no one would occure because beyond this issue I really like the light and looking forward to use it on mountain bike...)


----------



## bradthebold

That's weird. I've always had the indicator light off and never used strobe mode and mine locks out. I'll have to play with the strobe and then turn the indicator light on and see if it still does it.

Edit: With the indicator light off, I was able to replicate the lockout within 3 tries testing with the strobe mode. I wasn't able to replicate the issue with the indicator light on while testing for a few minutes.


----------



## Trevtrain

*Thank goodness for the Interwebs*

Thank goodness for the Interwebs and the collaborative powers of the flashlight forums brains trust!






Looks like we've made some proper progress at last.

Only a short time to play this morning as I have to leave for work but the LED indicator seems to be the deciding factor. The strobe may or may not be involved.

My results the same as cronus and others - with the Indicator turned on again I haven't been able to get the lockup. I will continue testing this evening just to be sure.

My unqualified opinion is that whatever "residual charge" is causing the problem is drained by the Indicator circuit just as it would be by loosening the tailcap and pressing the switch or waiting for it to decay.

_*Knight_Light - If you are about would you care to test this theory on your pre-production sample for us as well?*_


----------



## tony613

*Re: Thank goodness for the Interwebs*

So far I seem to be the only one that has had the problem happen with the switch indicator enabled. As I posted above, it happened to me once. I noticed from across the room that the switch was blinking red about once a second - low voltage indication, but the battery voltage was 4.16 volts (DMM). I have not been able to reproduce the problem with the switch led's enabled using the strobe method, but I HAVE reproduced it at least 10 times with the switch led's disabled. 

It is currently in the locked out condition right now, and I'm going to leave it that way because I have to go out. I'll see if the light heats up or shows any other reportable behavior.


----------



## cronus

*Re: Thank goodness for the Interwebs*

I would not be surprised if the issue occurs with the indicator enabled. Maybe it is less likely, who knows. All we can do is guess what might be happening. Let's hope the Armytek engineers get this one figured out so we can have reliable lights. That's the Armytek claim to fame, right?
For now, I'll keep the indicator on and turn it off at night. Nowhere near ideal, but I can deal with it for a little while.


----------



## RedForest UK

*Re: Thank goodness for the Interwebs*

I just unscrew the tailcap a quarter turn at night if the flash is bothering me. It's not my first choice night light anyway with the PWM on the lowest mode.


----------



## cronus

*Re: Thank goodness for the Interwebs*

Good idea RedForest_UK!


----------



## Kaban

*Re: Thank goodness for the Interwebs*

Is it safe to assume that 18650 headlamps (in general) can be safely run on two CR123 batteries?


----------



## Trevtrain

*Re: Thank goodness for the Interwebs*



Kaban said:


> Is it safe to assume that 18650 headlamps (in general) can be safely run on two CR123 batteries?



No.

It depends on the voltage supported. Armytek specifically says 1 x 18650 for this light.
The Armytek Predator can run on 2 x CR123 or 2 x 16340 but not this headlamp.

Also, some high-powered lights designed for 1 x 18650 may draw too much current to safely use CR123s.


----------



## bradthebold

*Re: Thank goodness for the Interwebs*

This is their latest response about the stepdown and lockout:

All runtime test by all manufacturers and reviewers are done in
 conditions of good air-cooling. That's why the numbers
 correspond such conditions. If you ride a bike, for example and
 the headlamp is able to loose heat faster, there will be no
 step down in the output and it will work for an hour at Max
 mode.

We are very sorry for these misunderstandings caused by a
 mistake in the manual. Here's the corrected information:

 Warning Indication. In ON-state shows the battery voltage and the temperature inside the headlamp. When the voltage drops, the headlamp main LED flashes 3 times, and when the temperature rises – 5 times. Additionally, the color LED shows the hazard level: voltage – 1 flash, temperature – 3 flashes. Warning level indicated once a second in corresponding color (light output decreases to Main2 mode). Critical level indicated twice a second in corresponding color: voltage – 1 flash (light output decreases by 25%), temperature – 3 flashes (light output decreases to Firefly1 mode). See the figures for the detailed correlation of indication LED color and pauses between flashes to the voltage and temperature.
For example: In environmental temperature equal to +27C the headlamp delivers light in Maximal Mode for about 5 minutes and then the brightness steps down to the Main Mode 2 level. 5-20 seconds afterwards the brightness increases to the Maximal level again. This stepping goes cyclically to maintain the user's safety and the headlamp's functionality). In the conditions of good air-cooling the headlamp produces constant light even in Maximal Mode.

The possible changes in the indication mechanism are now discussed and
we plan to change some things.

I'll contact you as soon I get new information.

------------------------------

So with their new system, there is no warning. Warning drops the output, which would prevent the light from getting any hotter. So it would never progress through colors or ever reach the critical state.


----------



## ArcticHighlander

*Re: Thank goodness for the Interwebs*



RedForest UK said:


> I just unscrew the tailcap a quarter turn at night if the flash is bothering me. It's not my first choice night light anyway with the PWM on the lowest mode.



+1


----------



## ArcticHighlander

cronus said:


> Here's what I do to reproduce it, and what I sent to Armytek:
> a. Turn on the light.
> b. Click four times to activate fast strobe.
> c. Wait between 5 and 10 seconds, then turn the light off.
> d. Wait another 5-10 seconds and press the button and see if the light turns on
> About 1 in 10 attempts will cause the light to lock up.
> 
> The odds of occurrence seems more likely than 1 in 10 now, for me anyway.


 Tried the above. On the 2nd try it locked up. I had the State Indicator turned off. I tried turning the State Indicator on to see if it mattered but it locked up when I tried to do so four times in a row. On the 5th try the State Indicator turned back on. I then tried the above again but after 3 attempts it would not go to strobe at all, but shut off instead each time. On the fourth attempt it finally went to strobe and I repeated the above steps 10 times in a row without a lock up (or a failure to go to strobe). During these tests I was using the original unprotected Panasonic 3100 that came with the light.


----------



## ArcticHighlander

cronus said:


> Thanks tony613, glad to hear a similar (and even more direct) tone from Armytek regarding replacing the light.
> My light started doing it the first day I received it, others seem to have it occurring later on, but once it occurs it seems to occur more often thereafter. Curious behaviour. :thinking:
> Edit: Armytek are claiming this is limited to a few units that have been reported to them, which may be true. Anyone who is experiencing this and are concerned about it should make sure to report it to Armytek so they are fully aware of the scope of the failures, and to get your name on the list for replacement/repaired lights.


I just reported my lock up problem to Armytek and mentioned that this seems to be a common problem based on the responses here. I also mentioned the problem with the defective lens coating and that it has been reported by a couple other people as well.


----------



## cronus

Thanks bradthebold for the update from Armytek. I received no response from them. It also sounds like a few have identified the lens coating defect too. That one bothers me, not because it affects anything much other than looks, but because it would have been such an easy thing to prevent in production. 
A quick inspection of the lens before assembling in the light would have prevented them from getting into the field. Again I find it difficult to believe that it was not spotted ahead of time and allowed to ship anyway. This is not the level of QC I expect from Armytek, based on their other models.
Edit: I did receive a response. Just an update on the lockup issue status. They passed along my reproducing method and have now "serious news about the issue". They also have recreated the lockup and are hopeful for a solution soon.


----------



## petr9999

can you take a picture of the lens, where it will be visible?


----------



## cronus

I posted this earlier, as a link:


----------



## petr9999

Hm, interesting... that looks like it is worn off (not blaming you fyi)


----------



## cronus

I thought that too, but if you look closely, the only spot where the coating is completely intact is right in the center. The rest is giving off a brighter reflection. I take this to mean that the center AR coating is complete and the outer part is incomplete.
Edit: I forgot to add, cleaning it has no positive or negative effect on the coating.


----------



## ArcticHighlander

cronus said:


> I thought that too, but if you look closely, the only spot where the coating is completely intact is right in the center. The rest is giving off a brighter reflection. I take this to mean that the center AR coating is complete and the outer part is incomplete.
> Edit: I forgot to add, cleaning it has no positive or negative effect on the coating.


Isn't the AR coating applied on the inside? Or to both sides? The similar area on mine is center top with a surrounding halo. I had assumed that that this clearer area was the defective area but I see what you mean about the surrounding area giving off a brighter reflection. In which case three quarters of the lens coating on mine is incomplete.


----------



## ArcticHighlander

I received a response from Armytek that they will replace the defective lens but to be patient until their techs come up with a fix for the lock up problem (rather than replace one defective light now with another one with the same lock up problem). They asked me to send a photo of the defective lens. I'll have to borrow a camera and see if I can get a good photo to show it.


----------



## Knight_Light

petr9999 said:


> did they tell u what temperature they have dropped it to?


 No they did not indicate what temperature they dropped it to.


----------



## Knight_Light

Trevtrain said:


> Or happen to mention anything about warning colours?


 They did not mention anything about the warning colors as well.


----------



## Knight_Light

Beacon of Light said:


> I don't have a H600 (waiting for the H602, hopefully soon) but all your perceptions about the Armytek I agree with 100%. Button is way too hard to press and not as ergonomic as the other Zebralights that I do own (H50/H50-B/H30w/H502x2/H31/H51F/H51). I found it odd someone in here (was you you knight-light?) that actually preferred the Armytek switch to the Zebralight. I see no way in the world this can be honestly seen as an improvement over what I perceive as perfect from Zebralight. It is a recessed and soft click button which is ergonomically located in a logical place. The Armytek is awkward and way too stiff to press.


 I definitely prefer the switch on the Armytek better. Granted I have probably stronger fingers from climbing then most, but I have no issues pressing the switch. Don't get me wrong the switch on the zebra light is nice. But I prefer the Armytek as I have yet to have it activate on me by accident. And the biggest point for me, is utilizing the headlamp with heavy gloves. It is nearly impossible with the zebra light. That's something nobody on here has even brought up. To me being able to operate with heavy gloves is important, it is a critical point in favor of the Armytek.


----------



## Knight_Light

Trevtrain said:


> I guess we can all find areas for improvements or changes that suit us, but those changes may spoil the appeal of the light for someone else.
> 
> I certainly agree that they seem to have made some last-minute changes to the production versions without proper checking. Not recalibrating the temperature indicator after lowering the thermal stepdown point is a bit of a sloppy mistake.
> The fact that we are experiencing random lockups is a lot less acceptable.


 +1


----------



## Knight_Light

Beacon of Light said:


> To me the Zebralights are the best of the best, and I am disappointed only Zebralight has switches like this, as I wish ALL lights had this type of soft switch.


 Take a look at the spark headlamps. They have a really nice switch that is similar to zebra light, except it is not recessed.


----------



## EsthetiX

Knight_Light said:


> If I may make a suggestion, I would get the unprotected cells from fasttech.com (FASTTECH SKU 1141100) $15 for 2 batteries delivered. These are Panasonic NCR18650B 3400 mAh.



I've been using the orbtronic 3400mAh 18650 protected cells. I've never used unprotected... What kind of difference should I expect?


----------



## markr6

Knight_Light said:


> And the biggest point for me, is utilizing the headlamp with heavy gloves. It is nearly impossible with the zebra light. That's something nobody on here has even brought up. To me being able to operate with heavy gloves is important, it is a critical point in favor of the Armytek.



+1. The ZL H600 is too small, firm and recessed. I love my H51w though...you can lightly tap it with a fingernail and you're all set! And I never had an accidental activation. Most seem to like the new switch though. This Armytek looks to be the best of both styles.


----------



## EsthetiX

Glenn7 said:


> Same here no offence, I agree with you beacon of light you should send back the Armytek lights as you don't seem to like them and that's Ok you are welcome to like them or not and have your opinion, you really seem to like zebra so you should stick to them if they are better for your needs. It just seems that almost every post of yours is so negative to a point that is almost like flaming/trolling (or maybe just me to me) to a point that is spoiling the thread for those that own and like the Armytek lights and want to discuss them - you have made your point now, try to see it from mine and don't take offence please.



Well said... And I'm sure most people following this thread would agree with this.


----------



## Beacon of Light

Sorry I did check them out and I can;t get past the bulky nature of the lights and poor runtime, so they are dead to me.



Knight_Light said:


> Take a look at the spark headlamps. They have a really nice switch that is similar to zebra light, except it is not recessed.


----------



## Beacon of Light

So even though I spent $200 on 2 of these lights I can't express my opinions on them despite also having the same lockup issues on BOTH lights I bought from Armytek? I didn't know you had to be a cheerleader in order to review a light. I prefer to be honest and tell the good with the bad on any light I purchase and review. I respect reviews that mention pro and cons and not just, "rah rah rah, this is the best" type of pablum puke.



EsthetiX said:


> Well said... And I'm sure most people following this thread would agree with this.


----------



## RedForest UK

You certainly are entitled to share your opinions. I have no problem with that at all, but I think you have already done so quite clearly.


----------



## Knight_Light

*Re: Thank goodness for the Interwebs*



Trevtrain said:


> Thank goodness for the Interwebs and the collaborative powers of the flashlight forums brains trust!
> 
> Looks like we've made some proper progress at last.
> 
> Only a short time to play this morning as I have to leave for work but the LED indicator seems to be the deciding factor. The strobe may or may not be involved.
> 
> My results the same as cronus and others - with the Indicator turned on again I haven't been able to get the lockup. I will continue testing this evening just to be sure.
> 
> My unqualified opinion is that whatever "residual charge" is causing the problem is drained by the Indicator circuit just as it would be by loosening the tailcap and pressing the switch or waiting for it to decay.
> 
> Knight_Light - If you are about would you care to test this theory on your pre-production sample for us as well?


 
I don’t think your theory is accurate as I am unable to reproduce it. But after sifting through all the posts, what I suspect is the problem is something that hasn’t been mentioned yet. 1st​ of all I think it is a software problem and not a hardware problem. I also think it is related with the lockout feature (when you press the button and then hold it down to let it cycle through all of the modes and then turns off). I think somehow the light is getting stuck in an infinite loop and then the only way to unlock it is to drain the circuit as others have mentioned.


----------



## Knight_Light

EsthetiX said:


> I've been using the orbtronic 3400mAh 18650 protected cells. I've never used unprotected... What kind of difference should I expect?


 You should expect double the runtime since they are half the price.  All kidding aside the orbs are awesome batteries that utilize the same exact cell. So I doubt you would see much of a difference.


----------



## EsthetiX

Knight_Light said:


> You should expect double the runtime since they are half the price.  All kidding aside the orbs are awesome batteries that utilize the same exact cell. So I doubt you would see much of a difference.



Thanks for the reply. That's what I thought. I haven't read into the differences between protected and unprotected. I was mostly just checking to see if I'd get more output. I use those orbs in my TK35 (which shares them with the wizard). Great batteries. Will need to pick up a couple extra 18650s so thanks again for that.


----------



## cronus

ArcticHighlander said:


> Isn't the AR coating applied on the inside? Or to both sides? The similar area on mine is center top with a surrounding halo. I had assumed that that this clearer area was the defective area but I see what you mean about the surrounding area giving off a brighter reflection. In which case three quarters of the lens coating on mine is incomplete.



Quality lenses will have the AR coating on both sides (light needs to transition through both sides, so reflection losses are experienced twice).


----------



## EsthetiX

*Re: Thank goodness for the Interwebs*



Knight_Light said:


> I don’t think your theory is accurate as I am unable to reproduce it. But after sifting through all the posts, what I suspect is the problem is something that hasn’t been mentioned yet. 1st​ of all I think it is a software problem and not a hardware problem. I also think it is related with the lockout feature (when you press the button and then hold it down to let it cycle through all of the modes and then turns off). I think somehow the light is getting stuck in an infinite loop and then the only way to unlock it is to drain the circuit as others have mentioned.



I am unable to reproduce the issue as well. It sounds to me like there may have been a bad batch at some point and must have been corrected.


----------



## Knight_Light

EsthetiX said:


> Thanks for the reply. That's what I thought. I haven't read into the differences between protected and unprotected. I was mostly just checking to see if I'd get more output. I use those orbs in my TK35 (which shares them with the wizard). Great batteries. Will need to pick up a couple extra 18650s so thanks again for that.


 You're welcome. The only bit of advice I would give you is that your TK35 should have its own set of batteries that are closely matched in capacity and age. Mixing them with the wizard might cause them to be mismatched down the road.


----------



## Knight_Light

*Proposed New Armytek Wizard Pro UI:*

I am one of the people that likes the Armytek Wizard Pro UI. But like everything else it has room for improvement (at least to me). Several weeks ago while testing the preproduction model I came up with what I feel is an improved UI that I sent to Armytek as a suggestion for future models. 


The idea behind this UI is that most people either concentrate on lower lumen outputs or higher lumen outputs when trying to perform a certain task. This UI enables the user to focus on either lower lumen outputs or higher lumen outputs for a particular task without losing the flexibility to jump from lower output to higher output when the task either changes or demands it (in essence creating 2 separate headlamps that are both easily accessible). It also has the added benefit of having all of the modes available without turning the light off (which to me is very important especially when engaging in activities such as caving).


They proposed new Armytek UI can be seen in the 2nd​ part of the review under the heading “Proposed New Armytek Wizard Pro UI:” here: http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb...otype-Long-Term-Testing&p=4221726#post4221726


I would love to hear what you guys think about this proposed change in the UI.


----------



## EsthetiX

Knight_Light said:


> You're welcome. The only bit of advice I would give you is that your TK35 should have its own set of batteries that are closely matched in capacity and age. Mixing them with the wizard might cause them to be mismatched down the road.



I'm keen on that. Thanks. I should have specified for others so they didn't get the wrong idea. Capacities should always be the same


----------



## syracuse

*Re: Thank goodness for the Interwebs*



EsthetiX said:


> I am unable to reproduce the issue as well. It sounds to me like there may have been a bad batch at some point and must have been corrected.




Did you turn off the state indicator when you try to reproduce the lockup issue? I just doubt that it might occur with every production units...


----------



## EsthetiX

*Re: Thank goodness for the Interwebs*



syracuse said:


> Did you turn off the state indicator when you try to reproduce the lockup issue? I just doubt that it might occur with every production units...



Yes, of course.


----------



## Beacon of Light

*Re: Proposed New Armytek Wizard Pro UI:*

can we vote this time about the UI? I would like it to be able to not only go from low to high, but back to low again, and I don't mean by just holding in the button to cycle through all other levels and modes. In a Zebralight I can double click and toggle between 2 levels. This is not possible with the Armytek. Let them change that and the lag time between levels when holding the button down. They could cut that time in half and then it wouldn't seem as sluggish when cycling through light levels.

Also if they are considering a change in the UI, could they add a true firefly level like .05 lumen? Thrunite's original firefly level was .04 lumens and it is perfect. My biggest gripe is .5 lumens is not low enough, and I'd be happy if they made that firefly 2 with a much lower Firefly 1 level. They could ditch one of the higher modes like your proposed section 2. Cyclying through my light the 30 lumens is the highest I would ever need and anything over 115 lumens seems unnecessary to me never mind 1100 lumens. To be honest most of the 115 lumen to 1100 lumen modes don't seem all that different to me.



Knight_Light said:


> I am one of the people that likes the Armytek Wizard Pro UI. But like everything else it has room for improvement (at least to me). Several weeks ago while testing the preproduction model I came up with what I feel is an improved UI that I sent to Armytek as a suggestion for future models.
> 
> 
> The idea behind this UI is that most people either concentrate on lower lumen outputs or higher lumen outputs when trying to perform a certain task. This UI enables the user to focus on either lower lumen outputs or higher lumen outputs for a particular task without losing the flexibility to jump from lower output to higher output when the task either changes or demands it (in essence creating 2 separate headlamps that are both easily accessible). It also has the added benefit of having all of the modes available without turning the light off (which to me is very important especially when engaging in activities such as caving).
> 
> 
> They proposed new Armytek UI can be seen in the 2nd​ part of the review under the heading “Proposed New Armytek Wizard Pro UI:” here: http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb...otype-Long-Term-Testing&p=4221726#post4221726
> 
> 
> I would love to hear what you guys think about this proposed change in the UI.


----------



## bluemax_1

*Re: Proposed New Armytek Wizard Pro UI:*



Beacon of Light said:


> 2. Cyclying through my light the 30 lumens is the highest I would ever need and anything over 115 lumens seems unnecessary to me never mind 1100 lumens. To be honest most of the 115 lumen to 1100 lumen modes don't seem all that different to me.


Do people go on car forums and say, "I bought a new Porsche 911 Turbo. To be honest, all I do is get groceries in it, and anything over 40mph seems unnecessary to me let alone 199mph. I never go higher than 2nd gear", or, "I just bought a minivan. To be honest, I only drive myself around. All those other seats seem unnecessary. I really only need one"?

I don't get it. If I'm looking for a pocket knife, I buy a pocket knife. I don't buy a machete or sword and then talk about how all that extra blade length is unnecessary and how difficult this thing is to fit in a pocket.


Max


----------



## Beacon of Light

*Re: Proposed New Armytek Wizard Pro UI:*

If ANYONE makes a dedicated headlamp with JUST lower levels that boasts super long runtimes, then I guess you will have to enlighten me please. Until then, my post is legit. 

To make your analogy correct you should change the 40mph to 140mph. Be honest there isn't a lot of difference between 140 and 199 when people are cool to travel at 70-80mph.

I also used to have a minivan (1994-2004)and I never traveled with passengers in that thing. I found the back bench seats unneccessary and took them out and they reside in my garage now as a place to sit the recycle bins.



bluemax_1 said:


> Do people go on car forums and say, "I bought a new Porsche 911 Turbo. To be honest, all I do is get groceries in it, and anything over 40mph seems unnecessary to me let alone 199mph. I never go higher than 2nd gear", or, "I just bought a minivan. To be honest, I only drive myself around. All those other seats seem unnecessary. I really only need one"?
> 
> I don't get it. If I'm looking for a pocket knife, I buy a pocket knife. I don't buy a machete or sword and then talk about how all that extra blade length is unnecessary and how difficult this thing is to fit in a pocket.
> 
> 
> Max


----------



## cronus

*Re: Proposed New Armytek Wizard Pro UI:*



Beacon of Light said:


> can we vote this time about the UI? I would like it to be able to not only go from low to high, but back to low again, and I don't mean by just holding in the button to cycle through all other levels and modes. In a Zebralight I can *double click and toggle between 2 levels*. This is not possible with the Armytek. Let them change that and the lag time between levels when holding the button down. They could cut that time in half and then it wouldn't seem as sluggish when cycling through light levels.
> 
> Also if they are considering a change in the UI, could they add a true firefly level like .05 lumen? Thrunite's original firefly level was .04 lumens and it is perfect. My biggest gripe is .5 lumens is not low enough, and I'd be happy if they made that firefly 2 with a much lower Firefly 1 level. They could ditch one of the higher modes like your proposed section 2. Cyclying through my light the 30 lumens is the highest I would ever need and anything over 115 lumens seems unnecessary to me never mind 1100 lumens. To be honest most of the 115 lumen to 1100 lumen modes don't seem all that different to me.



On the Wiz Pro, double-clicking toggles between Trubo and the last main mode you were using. This may not be just like the Zebralight, but it works fine for me. 
Also, if you are in a firefly mode, it doesn't blast you by going straight to Turbo. it goes to Low first. Then another double-click goes to Turbo.
Overall I think the UI is fairly well thought out. I do agree that the delay between mode changes when holding the button could be shorter.


----------



## psychbeat

I'm surprised anyone would want to use this large-ish headlamp for low lumen tasks rather than something like an H501 or 51/31 etc?
I do have an H60W that I use at work (running a printing press) or on stage(playing guitar in a touring rock band) but the H60W is much smaller/lighter than the wiz. 


I think the UI is overly complicated as well & trying to do too much with a single button. 

I have a few zebralights & a spark. 
The sparks 4modes & double click for turbo seems to be fine in most situations for me EXCEPT for the stupid 5min stepdown which is dangerous IMO. 

I guess I just don't need to be constantly fiddling with my light while hiking biking or working on trails. 
I'd rather set it & forget it & get on with the work/fun at hand. 

My fave UI is my dual p60 helmet light (Cavelight). 
Lo/Hi with last mode memory. 

Just some perspective from a frequent headlamp user and enthusiast!!


----------



## EsthetiX

*Re: Proposed New Armytek Wizard Pro UI:*

I think I found a solution for Beacon of Light. 







AND


----------



## ArcticHighlander

petr9999 said:


> Try pushing the button with your nail, mine is not overly stiff in the center, its about double the stiffness of the zebralight, but thats good, because its not recessed


Pushing with the nail definitely makes it much easier. I have had anther flashlight with a rubber cover over the button that eventually tore through after being used heavily over a long period of time just with an easy press of the finger. So it makes me a little concerned that regular stiff pushes with a nail might eventually cause a tear and possibly compromise its waterproofness.


----------



## ArcticHighlander

Knight_Light said:


> I definitely prefer the switch on the Armytek better. Granted I have probably stronger fingers from climbing then most, but I have no issues pressing the switch. Don't get me wrong the switch on the zebra light is nice. But I prefer the Armytek as I have yet to have it activate on me by accident. And the biggest point for me, is utilizing the headlamp with heavy gloves. It is nearly impossible with the zebra light. That's something nobody on here has even brought up. To me being able to operate with heavy gloves is important, it is a critical point in favor of the Armytek.


You must have both powerful and small hands if you can manipulate that button with heavy gloves. I have xxl to xxxl size hands and just a pair of heavy leather gloves would make it impossible, let alone trying to use a pair of heavy winter gloves or mittens.


----------



## petr9999

we got 10 years warranty right? i wouldnt call that inproper use


----------



## ArcticHighlander

I'd like to see them change the step down to the next higher level or the one just below that. The massive step down and loss of light they have now could result in an accident if on a bike trail or bad hill. I'd also like to see them have a similar _*range*_ of lumen choices to that of the SC600MKII:

Light Output (*OTF* Lumens)
*High:* H1 *900*Lm for the first 5 min and then step down to *500*Lm (2hrs) 
or H2 *500*Lm (2.1hrs) / 270 Lm / 4Hz Strobe
*Medium:* M1 *90*Lm (18hrs)
or M2 *27*Lm (50hrs)
*Low:* L1 *3.0*Lm (280hrs)
or L2 *0.6*Lm / 0.1Lm / 0.02Lm

I don't like to continually change settings, just set a few preferences, for the most part. Preferably low, medium and high. But I'd like to have the full range of options available for when they are needed or useful.


----------



## stp

*Re: Proposed New Armytek Wizard Pro UI:*



Knight_Light said:


> I would love to hear what you guys think about this proposed change in the UI.



I like your version better, would just add from off: double click for last memorized section 2, triple for turbo, quad for strobe. I'm not sure if press and hold from off should put you in mode 1 or rather in last memorized mode from section 1 (I see advantages both ways) 

But...you just kinda "zebrafied" the predator . The biggest difference between these lights for me is ZL Ui has more efficient way to access any of the preselected modes from on and off but Predator is much, much better in accessing turbo from other modes when on and switching between turbo and section 2. IMHO one is targeted at outdoor people the second more at tactical crowd. I don't think its possible to make both crowds happy with one one-button UI.

Now with your UI look what happened witch switching temporarily between Turbo and section2. Previously it was doubleclick and hold for Turbo, relase to go back. Now it's tripleclick for turbo, doubleclick to go back. With stiff button it could bother after few tries. So to summarize your UI is better for me than the original but for others could be worst.

Now when I started to think about it there should be implemented tripleclick and hold and double click and hold for temporarily accessing different modes in your UI.

Btw. It could be even more "zebrafied" if we would move 550 lm mode to section 3, 30 lm to section 2 and add new low-low to section 1. At that stage you would need to consider if section 3 should be added to other sections for access with double click or not. It has some advantages and some drawbacks. IMHO much more drawbacks.

Also you need to consider what happens when the light is waiting for user to finish clicks...for example when On: click, click (switch section now or wait?), click (turbo now or wait?), click (ah he wanted strobe). There are some traps in deciding if light should act immediately and eventually correct action later in case of more clicks or wait to confirm end of clicks. Example of it you will see when doubleclicking from off in ZL UI.

Another trap in your UI: there may be confusion between for example highest mode in section 1 and lowest in section 2 for inexperienced user. So he will not be sure if he is currently in section 1 or 2 if he don't remember what he used before. He thinks that he is in 1, press and hold to get to firefly and starts ramping light higher instead of lower. To operate current UI's in ZL and Predator you don't need to know where you are, it helps but its not needed because you always have click and hold for ramp up through entire or most of spectrum of lumens output. In your case click and hold will ramp trough half of the modes and they all will be close in output.

PS. Keep in mind that I didn't have Predator in my hands so its all based on how I understand the UI's


----------



## ArcticHighlander

tony613 said:


> If you want to try the lubrication method before making permanent modifications, whatever your lubricant of choice, here are 1,000+ words of applying it in a tidy fashion.
> 
> Put the lubricant on the tip of something blunt (a flat ended toothpick will work fine)
> Raise the supporting strap of the silicon loop
> Place the lubricant on the silicon or the flashlight
> Rotate the flashlight to evenly spread the lubricant
> Repeat the procedure for the other silicon loop
> Wipe off excess


Thanks for the tips. I used some Super Lube synthetic grease on the back end of a match stick. It was a bit messy even using just a small amount as the fit is so tight that it squeezes out any excess around the sides. But it wasn't difficult to clean up. And it made a huge difference. It was unusable as a headlamp before and this made it possible to adjust with just one hand. It's still stiffer than I'd like but now it's functional.


----------



## Knight_Light

*Re: Proposed New Armytek Wizard Pro UI:*



Beacon of Light said:


> can we vote this time about the UI? I would like it to be able to not only go from low to high, but back to low again, and I don't mean by just holding in the button to cycle through all other levels and modes. In a Zebralight I can double click and toggle between 2 levels. This is not possible with the Armytek. Let them change that and the lag time between levels when holding the button down. They could cut that time in half and then it wouldn't seem as sluggish when cycling through light levels.


 I agree with cutting the time in between levels as it would make the light seem less sluggish. Half I think would be a little bit too much, maybe around 30% would be my suggestion.

As far as making the UI more like zebra I don’t think it will happen. Zebra light has a wonderful UI but it has its shortcomings as well. There are enough consumers that are looking for alternatives and that enjoy the current Armytek UI for it to change.



Beacon of Light said:


> Also if they are considering a change in the UI, could they add a true firefly level like .05 lumen? Thrunite's original firefly level was .04 lumens and it is perfect. My biggest gripe is .5 lumens is not low enough, and I'd be happy if they made that firefly 2 with a much lower Firefly 1 level. They could ditch one of the higher modes like your proposed section 2. Cyclying through my light the 30 lumens is the highest I would ever need and anything over 115 lumens seems unnecessary to me never mind 1100 lumens. To be honest most of the 115 lumen to 1100 lumen modes don't seem all that different to me.


 Again I think there is enough of a consumer base that likes the .5 lm output for it to stay. Adding an additional firefly level would mean the sacrifice of one of the other levels which I think will impact negatively more people than it would satisfy. Your comment about anything over 115 lm being unnecessary would probably go against 95% of the consumer base for this particular headlamp.

You have some very unique preferences for your lights that are outside the bell curve of most consumers. I think you are justified (although I personally can’t relate) in your personal preferences, to be frank with you I wish I had your preferences over mine as I would be capable of ridiculous runtimes when taking lights on expeditions without having to lug additional power sources. I honestly feel that your best bet for 100% satisfaction is just to have someone build a custom headlamp for you by modifying one of the current offerings from zebra light (if you want lightweight) or Armytek (if you want durability).


----------



## Knight_Light

*Re: Proposed New Armytek Wizard Pro UI:*



Beacon of Light said:


> If ANYONE makes a dedicated headlamp with JUST lower levels that boasts super long runtimes, then I guess you will have to enlighten me please. Until then, my post is legit.


 That is the idea behind my UI. To create 2 headlamps within one unit, each with 3 presets. One for lower levels and one for medium to high levels. This way the product not only could satisfy the majority of the consumer base but also make it more task specific.


----------



## Knight_Light

ArcticHighlander said:


> You must have both powerful and small hands if you can manipulate that button with heavy gloves. I have xxl to xxxl size hands and just a pair of heavy leather gloves would make it impossible, let alone trying to use a pair of heavy winter gloves or mittens.


 
When I read your response it automatically made me think of the Seinfeld "Man Hands" episode. lol You weren’t an extra on the set by any chance were you? 

I definitely don't have your hand size but I do wear xl-xxl gloves. I didn't say that it was a joy to operate the headlamp with heavy gloves, I said it was possible. I even tried operating this headlamp with what I thought would be the worst type of glove (heavy welding gloves), and it worked without a problem.

If you have a problem operating this headlamp with gloves it would literally be impossible for you to operate a zebra light with those same gloves, and that was my point (the Armytek is more glove friendly).


----------



## Knight_Light

ArcticHighlander said:


> I'd like to see them change the step down to the next higher level or the one just below that. The massive step down and loss of light they have now could result in an accident if on a bike trail or bad hill. .


 +1

I totally agree and I think the level should be 250 lm based on my own personal testing.



ArcticHighlander said:


> I'd also like to see them have a similar range of lumen choices to that of the SC600MKII:
> 
> Light Output (OTF Lumens)
> High: H1 900Lm for the first 5 min and then step down to 500Lm (2hrs)
> or H2 500Lm (2.1hrs) / 270 Lm / 4Hz Strobe
> Medium: M1 90Lm (18hrs)
> or M2 27Lm (50hrs)
> Low: L1 3.0Lm (280hrs)
> or L2 0.6Lm / 0.1Lm / 0.02Lm
> 
> I don't like to continually change settings, just set a few preferences, for the most part. Preferably low, medium and high. But I'd like to have the full range of options available for when they are needed or useful.


 Did you by any chance read my proposed UI? That is one of the things I tried to address by grouping modes into 3’s, and then separating them. As far as having additional modes for lower firefly it is impossible in this headlamp with the current driver, you would have to sacrifice some of the higher levels (which I am personally against).


----------



## Knight_Light

*Re: Proposed New Armytek Wizard Pro UI:*



stp said:


> I like your version better, would just add from off: double click for last memorized section 2, triple for turbo, quad for strobe. I'm not sure if press and hold from off should put you in mode 1 or rather in last memorized mode from section 1 (I see advantages both ways)


 I thought about what you suggested originally. The reason I decided to set it up the way that it is, is because if you wake up in the middle of the night and you need access to the light and you forgot it in 30 lm or even 7 lm you would immediately get blasted with more light then you wanted.



stp said:


> But...you just kinda "zebrafied" the predator . The biggest difference between these lights for me is ZL Ui has more efficient way to access any of the preselected modes from on and off but Predator is much, much better in accessing turbo from other modes when on and switching between turbo and section 2. IMHO one is targeted at outdoor people the second more at tactical crowd. I don't think its possible to make both crowds happy with one one-button UI.


 Zebra light definitely has a more efficient UI for accessing any of the preselected modes but it is a lot more difficult in selecting the others (that is the main drawback of the zebra UI for me). My solution was to try to create 2 separate headlamps in one headlamp offering that you then can toggle to and from. One would concentrate on lower lumens and the other would concentrate on medium and high while both give you access to Turbo and specialty modes.



stp said:


> Now with your UI look what happened witch switching temporarily between Turbo and section2. Previously it was doubleclick and hold for Turbo, relase to go back. Now it's tripleclick for turbo, doubleclick to go back. With stiff button it could bother after few tries. So to summarize your UI is better for me than the original but for others could be worst.


I didn’t fully elaborate on the UI. It would be triple click to go into Turbo, but if you held the last click it would be momentary Turbo just like the current UI. I will update my post.



stp said:


> Btw. It could be even more "zebrafied" if we would move 550 lm mode to section 3, 30 lm to section 2 and add new low-low to section 1. At that stage you would need to consider if section 3 should be added to other sections for access with double click or not. It has some advantages and some drawbacks. IMHO much more drawbacks.


 1st​ let me start by saying that the concept of the UI is not to zebrafy the headlamp but to create 2 separate headlamps in one. Also if we followed your suggestion by creating an extra firefly mode we would have to sacrifice the Turbo (or some other mode) due to the design of the driver.



stp said:


> Also you need to consider what happens when the light is waiting for user to finish clicks...for example when On: click, click (switch section now or wait?), click (turbo now or wait?), click (ah he wanted strobe). There are some traps in deciding if light should act immediately and eventually correct action later in case of more clicks or wait to confirm end of clicks. Example of it you will see when doubleclicking from off in ZL UI.


 If we’re talking about my UI I think it is best to have immediate action (personal preference). Not only will it make the light seem more responsive but you will be guaranteed light no matter what (this would be useful in an emergency panic situation).



stp said:


> Another trap in your UI: there may be confusion between for example highest mode in section 1 and lowest in section 2 for inexperienced user. So he will not be sure if he is currently in section 1 or 2 if he don't remember what he used before. He thinks that he is in 1, press and hold to get to firefly and starts ramping light higher instead of lower. To operate current UI's in ZL and Predator you don't need to know where you are, it helps but its not needed because you always have click and hold for ramp up through entire or most of spectrum of lumens output. In your case click and hold will ramp trough half of the modes and they all will be close in output.


 Every UI has its limitations (including mine) otherwise there would be a perfect UI that every manufacturer would use. As far as the confusion that one may experience, I totally agree with this, however the confusion at the higher levels is less detrimental to night vision then the lower, so it would be more of an inconvenience then harmful. Again this is a trade-off in what I perceived to be improvements in other areas.


----------



## ArcticHighlander

*Re: Proposed New Armytek Wizard Pro UI:*

Having had a chance to quickly compare the highest and lowest settings on the Wizard Pro with the H600 I've been able to form some initial impressions. On the lowest setting the WP is definitely brighter and has a wider beam. It casts a very nice light but it is too bright for the lowest end of my usage. The H600 in my opinion is also too high a low setting but still much better at preserving night vision and less likely to disturb others. Outdoors, on the highest setting the WP still casts a nice warm even flood without any hot spot. It is the only flashlight I've had that does not. It seems like the perfect light for a walk at night along a forest trail. The H600 on the other hand is a bit harsher in color and has a noticeable intense spot beam at the center of its flood beam. Because of its spot beam however it throws much further than the WP and seems more useful for biking or other activities where having that extra reach is important.


----------



## ArcticHighlander

Knight_Light said:


> +1
> 
> I totally agree and I think the level should be 250 lm based on my own personal testing.
> 
> Did you by any chance read my proposed UI? That is one of the things I tried to address by grouping modes into 3’s, and then separating them. As far as having additional modes for lower firefly it is impossible in this headlamp with the current driver, you would have to sacrifice some of the higher levels (which I am personally against).


Can you clarify why this driver precludes the use of the lower firefly settings without sacrificing the higher ones?


----------



## markr6

*Re: Proposed New Armytek Wizard Pro UI:*



Knight_Light said:


> Every UI has its limitations (including mine) otherwise there would be a perfect UI that every manufacturer would use.



This got me thinking - would it add too much bulk and weight to have a variable control ring at the head end? That would be a great UI for a headlamp. A quick flick to turbo, start in low, everything easily in between.


----------



## Beacon of Light

*Re: Proposed New Armytek Wizard Pro UI:*

Thanks I already have several of these push button lights. I'd actually use them if there was a rechargeable CR2032 coin cell battery as I cannot in good faith use non-rechargeable batteries in the year 2013. I've been using rechargeables since 1991 with the Eveready NiCads, so since then there is never a need to buy a primary cell, ever.



EsthetiX said:


> I think I found a solution for Beacon of Light.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> AND


----------



## stp

*Re: Proposed New Armytek Wizard Pro UI:*

Let me tell you that it's hard to discuss with you for me, each time I have feeling that you are getting very defensive (I don't know maybe its a language barrier - english is obviously not my native language). You asked about opinions and I just tried to point what I like in it, what not, potential disadvantages and potential problems. That's all.



Knight_Light said:


> ...
> 1st​ let me start by saying that the concept of the UI is not to zebrafy the headlamp...


Well lets me clarify, on one end of the spectrum you have Zebra UI, on another Predatar UI. Yours for me is somewhere in between. Because it used Predator UI as a base this is why "zebrafy" was coined. No wrong intentions here. Its just like I see them in relation to each other.



Knight_Light said:


> If we’re talking about my UI I think it is best to have immediate action (personal preference). Not only will it make the light seem more responsive but you will be guaranteed light no matter what (this would be useful in an emergency panic situation).



You see it really depends from what mode you are switching to where and how. I don't have time to analyse every possible situation but it should be done because there are some pitfalls like:

Mode 1 is remembered in section 1 ( .5lm ), user is in section 2 - mode 6 (550lm), he wants to switch to turbo (1000lm). With immediate action it will look like: 550lm, click, (lets ignore immediate off , click, 0.5 lm, click 1000lm. The best solution imho would be to ramp the light up/down in short amount of time. So you have immediate reaction but it doesn't look so aggresive and it always can change direction during interpretation of user input. But I didn't see any light with complicated interface that had something like that implemented.


----------



## Knight_Light

ArcticHighlander said:


> Can you clarify why this driver precludes the use of the lower firefly settings without sacrificing the higher ones?


 Without getting too technical the best way to describe it is you have a certain amount of modes that the driver is capable of, once those are filled if you introduce an additional mode another one has to be removed. Think of a typical egg carton that holds a dozen eggs. If you wanted to add a mode or a feature and the carton is not full you simply add it but if the carton is full you have to remove something to be able to put something in its place.


----------



## Knight_Light

*Re: Proposed New Armytek Wizard Pro UI:*



markr6 said:


> This got me thinking - would it add too much bulk and weight to have a variable control ring at the head end? That would be a great UI for a headlamp. A quick flick to turbo, start in low, everything easily in between.


 On paper it sounds like a great idea but in reality it's horrible, especially for a headlamp. The main reason is that it is impossible to judge runtimes with infinite variable lights except for the high and low. Most people that get headlamps use them in environments where they need to be able to calculate runtimes.

If you are utilizing your headlamp with access to additional power supplies then yes it’s solves a lot of issues in terms of satisfying everyone’s light preferences and is a wonderful idea. However, when most people are given an infinite variable light they tend to choose output levels that are typically higher then needed (especially since light is perceived on a logarithmic scale) thus shortening runtimes. That is one of the reasons why I stay away from infinite variable lights for outdoor purposes.

For example on the current prototype the 30 lm level is almost indistinguishable from that 70 lm level. With an infinite variable light it would be very easy to end up around 70 lm or 80 lm and thusly shortening runtimes without the need to do so. Although this feature is very handy as well as appealing to most users it just makes the light to unpredictable in terms of runtimes, and let’s face it most people are concerned about runtimes especially for outdoor and emergency lighting needs.


----------



## Knight_Light

*Re: Proposed New Armytek Wizard Pro UI:*



Beacon of Light said:


> Thanks I already have several of these push button lights. I'd actually use them if there was a rechargeable CR2032 coin cell battery as I cannot in good faith use non-rechargeable batteries in the year 2013. I've been using rechargeables since 1991 with the Eveready NiCads, so since then there is never a need to buy a primary cell, ever.


 I think I may have solved your problem. They have rechargeable CR2032. They are typically referred to as LIR2032. Just Google it and you will find plenty of sellers.


----------



## Knight_Light

*Re: Proposed New Armytek Wizard Pro UI:*



stp said:


> Let me tell you that it's hard to discuss with you for me, each time I have feeling that you are getting very defensive (I don't know maybe its a language barrier - english is obviously not my native language). You asked about opinions and I just tried to point what I like in it, what not, potential disadvantages and potential problems. That's all.


 1st​ of all let me clarify something. I don’t take any opinion defensively, especially one that is constructive (which yours is) to the discussion of the subject matter. I apologize if that is the way that it comes across. I do however try to clarify my point of view or my idea if I feel it still has legitimacy after hearing a counter idea.



stp said:


> You see it really depends from what mode you are switching to where and how. I don't have time to analyse every possible situation but it should be done because there are some pitfalls like:
> 
> Mode 1 is remembered in section 1 ( .5lm ), user is in section 2 - mode 6 (550lm), he wants to switch to turbo (1000lm). With immediate action it will look like: 550lm, click, (lets ignore immediate off , click, 0.5 lm, click 1000lm. The best solution imho would be to ramp the light up/down in short amount of time. So you have immediate reaction but it doesn't look so aggresive and it always can change direction during interpretation of user input. But I didn't see any light with complicated interface that had something like that implemented.


 I understand your point of view and will go as far as to say that I agree with it. But you don’t have a proposed solution that maintains the original intention of the UI. It would be a lot more constructive if you propose a solution that Incorporated an improvement while maintaining the original intention of the UI (unless you want to change the intention of the UI in which case it is not an improvement but a completely different UI).


----------



## markr6

*Re: Proposed New Armytek Wizard Pro UI:*



Knight_Light said:


> On paper it sounds like a great idea but in reality it's horrible, especially for a headlamp. The main reason is that it is impossible to judge runtimes with infinite variable lights except for the high and low. Most people that get headlamps use them in environments where they need to be able to calculate runtimes.
> 
> If you are utilizing your headlamp with access to additional power supplies then yes it’s solves a lot of issues in terms of satisfying everyone’s light preferences and is a wonderful idea. However, when most people are given an infinite variable light they tend to choose output levels that are typically higher then needed (especially since light is perceived on a logarithmic scale) thus shortening runtimes. That is one of the reasons why I stay away from infinite variable lights for outdoor purposes.
> 
> For example on the current prototype the 30 lm level is almost indistinguishable from that 70 lm level. With an infinite variable light it would be very easy to end up around 70 lm or 80 lm and thusly shortening runtimes without the need to do so. Although this feature is very handy as well as appealing to most users it just makes the light to unpredictable in terms of runtimes, and let’s face it most people are concerned about runtimes especially for outdoor and emergency lighting needs.



That makes sense. Perfect explanation, thanks!


----------



## Knight_Light

*Re: Proposed New Armytek Wizard Pro UI:*



markr6 said:


> That makes sense. Perfect explanation, thanks!


 You are welcome 


Having said that, as a secondary light, especially in an environment with access to reliable power sources (such as a home in a nonemergency situation) infinite variable lights are awesome and super convenient to use (provided they get the magnetic ring calibrated properly to adjust for the logarithmic perception of light). 

I think everyone should own at least one infinite variable light provided it is not their primary light or one that is relied upon in emergency situations. It is so easy to use that less technical family members and friends will enjoy the light without having a steep learning curve while guaranteeing that most light preferences will be met with a simple twist (or whatever mechanism it uses).

I think one of the best designs is a hybrid combination. Where the modes are changed with a magnetic ring selector but the levels are clearly predefined so that one knows the expected runtimes associated with each level. There are drawbacks however to these designs. Magnetic ring selector lights tend to be not as durable as regular clicky lights, they are not even as durable as electronic switch lights such as the Armytek Zebra and Spark. There is no mode memorization and the user typically needs to start either in the highest high or the lowest low (a huge drawback if you ask me).


----------



## Beacon of Light

*Re: Proposed New Armytek Wizard Pro UI:*

I have several Icon Irix I and II headlamps that use a variable control knob. When you have a variable control there is no need for memorization. Starting at lowest low (which isn't as low as I'd prefer, but it gets nice and low on a run down battery) is not only NOT a problem, it is my preference. It's funny as everything you think as a drawback in headlamp design or UI, I tend to disagree and think the opposite. 

I'd also disagree with your theory in another post that one tends to use more light than they need with a variable control light. I purposely try to use LESS than I need, all in the name of battery conservation and to extend runtime. That is my goal 100% of the time. I actually had to cringe when someone suggested I take beamshots of it on high, knowing I was wasting precious mAh by doing so, in an early review of this light back in the day here on CPF.








Knight_Light said:


> There are drawbacks however to these designs. Magnetic ring selector lights tend to be not as durable as regular clicky lights, they are not even as durable as electronic switch lights such as the Armytek Zebra and Spark. There is no mode memorization and the user typically needs to start either in the highest high or the lowest low (a huge drawback if you ask me).


----------



## Knight_Light

*Re: Proposed New Armytek Wizard Pro UI:*



Beacon of Light said:


> I have several Icon Irix I and II headlamps that use a variable control knob. When you have a variable control there is no need for memorization. Starting at lowest low (which isn't as low as I'd prefer, but it gets nice and low on a run down battery) is not only NOT a problem, it is my preference. It's funny as everything you think as a drawback in headlamp design or UI, I tend to disagree and think the opposite.


 In that case you should probably never buy a headlamp that I review positively. 

When you say there is no need for memorization, that is according to YOU, other people have different needs. 


Beacon of Light said:


> I'd also disagree with your theory in another post that one tends to use more light than they need with a variable control light. I purposely try to use LESS than I need, all in the name of battery conservation and to extend runtime. That is my goal 100% of the time. I actually had to cringe when someone suggested I take beamshots of it on high, knowing I was wasting precious mAh by doing so, in an early review of this light back in the day here on CPF.


 Now I am not saying you are not entitled to your preferences and opinions, as a matter of fact I encourage them, everyone should have that right, but when your preferences opinions and needs are probably 3 standard deviations from the middle of a bell curve that is considered the consumer market you are probably better off building your own product or paying someone to make a custom one-off product.


----------



## bluemax_1

*Re: Proposed New Armytek Wizard Pro UI:*



Beacon of Light said:


> If ANYONE makes a dedicated headlamp with JUST lower levels that boasts super long runtimes, then I guess you will have to enlighten me please. Until then, my post is legit.
> 
> To make your analogy correct you should change the 40mph to 140mph. Be honest there isn't a lot of difference between 140 and 199 when people are cool to travel at 70-80mph.


As far as headlamps go, ZL already has lower lumen models with good runtimes and firefly options.

Yes, 199mph and 140mph may not be too different to the layman (although it's a world of a difference to the average person looking to buy a new 911 Turbo), but no, my analogy is correct. There are folks who only drive in the city. These are the folks who prize fuel economy and being able to easily fit in parking spots and are the target market for things like Smart cars. They rarely ever go over 40mph and hardly ever even get to 70mph because they're only driving in city. 

In normal every day use, folks generally don't go much over 70mph (in the US at least), so 140mph or 199mph doesn't make much difference, but that's an inaccurate analogy because there are MANY users out there who would regularly use more than 115 lumens out of a headlamp every day. Trail runners, bikers, anyone doing stuff outside the house. Just like there are many people who regularly drive at speeds greater than 40mph. This light is made for them. There are many smaller lights that offer lower output for folks who don't need the output the WP offers.


Max


----------



## Beacon of Light

*Re: Proposed New Armytek Wizard Pro UI:*



Knight_Light said:


> In that case you should probably never buy a headlamp that I review positively.



Your Armytek Wizard Pro was the first and only review I have seen of yours, but I will take your advise for reviews you may do in the future. haha



Knight_Light said:


> When you say there is no need for memorization, that is according to YOU, other people have different needs.
> Now I am not saying you are not entitled to your preferences and opinions, as a matter of fact I encourage them, everyone should have that right, but when your preferences opinions and needs are probably 3 standard deviations from the middle of a bell curve that is considered the consumer market you are probably better off building your own product or paying someone to make a custom one-off product.



Just for giggles, why would you need memorization on a light with a control dial? Are we getting that lazy in this day and age where turning a knob is too much work? Maybe it would be a gimmick to add memory to a light with variable control, so you can do both, but I can't even see a memory function even improving anything like efficiency or quickness, as it would take maybe a millisecond more time to turn the dial than to click a button... Now we are splitting hairs, and to be honest, a control dial is much more precise with whatever level of light you need, not being at the mercy of pre-set lumen levels that a company or some internet guru claimed would be best for "x" light levels.


----------



## beamon

*Re: Proposed New Armytek Wizard Pro UI:*

I support the rheostatic ring idea for varying the level of light. It's what I like best about my Surefire Minimus. For those concerned about gauging runtimes at specific lumen levels, I think it would be VERY EASY for a manufacturer to include little notches in the movement of the ring, to let the user gauge specific lumen levels along the way. The user could start with the light off, and count the notches felt while turning the ring up, to know the specific level, and so be able to gauge the runtime. Clicking buttons should just be for switching modes (eg from beam to strobes to metering voltage, whatever).


----------



## ArcticHighlander

cronus said:


> I posted this earlier, as a link:


Here is the photo of my coating defect that I sent to Armytek:


----------



## Trevtrain

*Re: Proposed New Armytek Wizard Pro UI:*



Knight_Light said:


> I don’t think your theory is accurate as I am unable to reproduce it. But after sifting through all the posts, what I suspect is the problem is something that hasn’t been mentioned yet. 1st​ of all I think it is a software problem and not a hardware problem. I also think it is related with the lockout feature (when you press the button and then hold it down to let it cycle through all of the modes and then turns off). I think somehow the light is getting stuck in an infinite loop and then the only way to unlock it is to drain the circuit as others have mentioned.



My theory just a theory - I'm just throwing ideas out there.  Draining the circuit is certainly what is "fixing" or "unlocking" it. I speculated that the indicator light serves the purpose of draining the circuit but who really knows for sure.

Your comment that it is likely to be software related seems to be on track. Armytek has responded in the Marketplace that new firmware is coming so I guess we need to wait on further info about exactly what issues this firmware will address.

You say you can't reproduce the lockup problem. Is this just on the pre-production lights you reviewed or have you recieved your production samples yet?


----------



## bokeh

*Re: Proposed New Armytek Wizard Pro UI:*

I recently got the "wide limited" version.

It locks up, but it seems to happen only if the state indicator is switched off, and if I use the voltage indicator flash. I couldn't get it to lock up otherwise.


----------



## Lampyridae

After O ring imperfection I wrote about, after thermal protection and state indicator colours issue, now I'm dealing with lockup issue too. It happens only with state indicator off. So count me in...
Btw., did anyone manage to get one hour of constant turbo under any circumstances? I tried in air conditioned room (20 degree Celsius), but never got more then 6 minutes. So much about "Constant Brightness" mark under optics...
According to posts in this thread, I feel like we all got some kind of prototypes, and only Knight_Light got final product with no issues at all and meeting all specs as advertised...

EDIT: my lockup issue happens from fast strobo mode


----------



## petr9999

I got max constant brightness for around 45mins yesterday on a bicycle  but still quite unhappy with the light in general


----------



## Lampyridae

Petr, good for you! 45 minutes looks like a lot to me. It's probably max one can get out of it, since nobody is going to use it on rollercoaster...


----------



## ArcticHighlander

Lampyridae said:


> After O ring imperfection I wrote about, after thermal protection and state indicator colours issue, now I'm dealing with lockup issue too. It happens only with state indicator off. So count me in...
> Btw., did anyone manage to get one hour of constant turbo under any circumstances? I tried in air conditioned room (20 degree Celsius), but never got more then 6 minutes. So much about "Constant Brightness" mark under optics...
> According to posts in this thread, I feel like we all got some kind of prototypes, and only Knight_Light got final product with no issues at all and meeting all specs as advertised...
> EDIT: my lockup issue happens from fast strobo mode


Someone put theirs under water and managed to get a little over 1 hour.


----------



## ArcticHighlander

ArcticHighlander said:


> Here is the photo of my coating defect that I sent to Armytek:


Armytek has emailed me to mail the light back to them in China, the cheapest way possible, stating that by the time it arrives they should have a fix to the lock up problem.


----------



## ArcticHighlander

Knight Light: could you test the 10 meter waterproof spec when you get the production light? I'm curious if it could be used for snorkeling or diving. The H600 is only guaranteed at 2 meters for 30 minutes. The Wizard Pro could give full time in Turbo underwater assuming it can handle that depth.


----------



## jonathanluu2

*Re: Proposed New Armytek Wizard Pro UI:*

Hey folks, did a bit of playing around with my light and have some shots for ya. I dont have a Zebralight H600, but I have the H51Fw, which I compared for low settings. Note: My Wizard is the 5500K, 70deg. spot one. Note-note: Pictures are as close to how I "see" the light as I could render. Ex. the illuminated book below looks EXACTLY as bright as when I look at it with my own eyes.




^ Wizard and H51Fw off. It looked like the head was press fit onto the battery tube so I wanted to make sure it was on real good. I grabbed the head and gave it the best torque I could and it didnt budge. Spot on. My ring (Stainless Steel alloy) was up against the bezel (the SS part, not the Anodized Aluminum) and the ring won. Still hard, but not impervious. Not real important in my book, as its all superficial, but thought some might want to know.




^Wizard and H51Fw on lowest settings. Note: Armytek specs the Wizard at 0.5lm (LED lumens) and Zebralight specs the H51 at 0.16lm (OTF). (Platypus makes an awesome hydration pack btw. Fantastic.)




^ You can discern a more meaningful difference in brightness when looking at the beam. Wizard (Left) is not too much brighter but definitely lights up more surface area, even though my H51Fw (Right) is quite floody. Note: Headlamps are ~1ft from the wall, camera is ~1ft behind the headlamps.




^ Reading on the lowest setting on the Wizard. Kinda green, when you compare the two. I dont notice the tint as much when I dont have them side by side. It does a good job of flooding the whole book without a hotspot in the middle. Note: book is ~1ft from my face.




^"Sighhhhh..." I sigh a sigh of satisfaction every time I use my NW zebra  This is the tint that is perfect for reading a book. Makes me feel all cozy and old fashioned  Unfortunately, I have to move my head around a bit when reading with this light. Note: book is ~1ft from my face.

*>>>Now for some Night Rides on Turbo!<<<

*


^Main beam lights up a good area about 15 ft in diameter. Spill assists in illuminating my front tire, the brush around me, and down the trail. AH (quoted below) is right, I would say this is more of a hiking light, but does a FANTASTIC job, even with biking. I would PREFER more throw, but the Wizard wasnt hindering my speed at all.




ArcticHighlander said:


> Outdoors, on the highest setting the WP still casts a nice warm even flood without any hot spot. It is the only flashlight I've had that does not. It seems like the perfect light for a walk at night along a forest trail. The H600 on the other hand is a bit harsher in color and has a noticeable intense spot beam at the center of its flood beam. Because of its spot beam however it throws much further than the WP and seems more useful for biking or other activities where having that extra reach is important.






^ What It looks like when I am riding. Head slightly tilted. Just enough peripheral light to see my tire. Just enough light for out front. An interesting thing to note: I didnt feel like I was "night riding" as there was no tunnel of light. It was all bright, wherever I looked. Can a light be too floody and bright? 




^ Looking down at the immediate foreground. (If I need to traverse something technical, like a rock garden.) Very bright and clear when looking down.

*>>>Overall<<*


Very good color rendering, except in low setting. Gets kinda greenish for whatever reason when on lower settings.
Gets a check in my book for night-ride-ability.
Temperature: Not sure why, but my light seems to allow itself to get quite hot on Turbo. It never stepped down during my entire night ride (dont be fooled by the time of day, it was still a muggy 85F (something around 30C for the rest of you guys, no?)).
I checked the light with a meat thermometer (quite accurate when plunged in something, but couldnt get it literally IN the light, so temperatures were understated im sure) but I still got 70C on the thermometer. Odd indeed. It finally stepped down (green indicator flashes) at 70C at the head.
Lockout: Never tried to intentionally lock out my light, but since you guys mentioned it I tried it. I could manage a lockout if I hand the state indicator off, AND recently used the strobe/voltage indicator mode. Otherwise functional. Another oddity.

Thanks for all of you guys contributing to this forum,

J.


----------



## Trevtrain

Lampyridae said:


> Btw., did anyone manage to get one hour of constant turbo under any circumstances? I tried in air conditioned room (20 degree Celsius), but never got more then 6 minutes.



Have you read this entire thread? http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb...Term-Testing&p=4246010&viewfull=1#post4246010

I tested it at 18C ambient temperature in an outdoor tailstanding test with a fair breeze and ran it for 30 mins with no problems at all. The only reason I cut the test short was I was getting tired of sitting out there in the middle of the night.
I have no IR thermometer but periodic brief "gripping" of the light gave no indication of further temperature increase after the 15 min mark.

Running it in a glass of water is NOT required.



Lampyridae said:


> So much about "Constant Brightness" mark under optics...



Like someone else in here, it appears you do not properly understand the specs. The "constant brightness" refers to the fact that output is regulated and does not drop as the battery voltage decreases. This is completely independent of the thermal stepdown feature. This discussion has been done to death and can be found in previous posts.



Lampyridae said:


> According to posts in this thread, I feel like we all got some kind of prototypes, and only Knight_Light got final product with no issues at all and meeting all specs as advertised...



I think you need to grab a coffee, sit down and read the entire thread. Changes between the pre-production models Knight_Light reviewed and production versions shipped to customers like you and I have been clearly documented. I'm sorry but your statement makes no sense.


----------



## tony613

tony613 said:


> If you want to try the lubrication method before making permanent modifications, whatever your lubricant of choice, here are 1,000+ words of applying it in a tidy fashion.
> 
> {Picture Removed}
> 
> Put the lubricant on the tip of something blunt (a flat ended toothpick will work fine)
> Raise the supporting strap of the silicon loop
> Place the lubricant on the silicon or the flashlight
> Rotate the flashlight to evenly spread the lubricant
> Repeat the procedure for the other silicon loop
> Wipe off excess[/I]





ArcticHighlander said:


> Thanks for the tips. I used some Super Lube synthetic grease on the back end of a match stick. It was a bit messy even using just a small amount as the fit is so tight that it squeezes out any excess around the sides. But it wasn't difficult to clean up. And it made a huge difference. It was unusable as a headlamp before and this made it possible to adjust with just one hand. It's still stiffer than I'd like but now it's functional.



You're welcome, I'm glad it made a notable, positive difference. I found that when turing the light in the holder you need to use the head and not the tail cap. Turning from the tail cap can cause it to unscrew, and if doing so repeatedly with one hand you may not notice - until you're in the dark. :candle:


And thank you for turning me on to Super Lube. I see they have a whole host of products, with many positive reviews.


----------



## cronus

ArcticHighlander said:


> Armytek has emailed me to mail the light back to them in China, the cheapest way possible, stating that by the time it arrives they should have a fix to the lock up problem.



I will have to contact them about that. I live 30 minutes from the Canada headquarters. I know they do not do manufacturing and such there, but sending it all the way to China just seems wrong when I could drop it off or mail it 30 miles. Probably a procedure thing though...

jonathanluu2, check the mark your ring made on the light. From my experience, the anodizing doesn't actually scratch, it scrapes off part of the SS. I use the clip regularly and you can see where the clip material has become embedded in the ano texture.


----------



## psychbeat

Thanks for the review Jonathan ^^^

Maybe all of these firmware issues will be sorted by the time the NW is released.


----------



## Knight_Light

*Re: Proposed New Armytek Wizard Pro UI:*



Beacon of Light said:


> Your Armytek Wizard Pro was the first and only review I have seen of yours, but I will take your advise for reviews you may do in the future. haha


 You are correct this is my 1st​ review on CPF. It was more of a joke since I plan on doing other reviews. 



Beacon of Light said:


> Just for giggles, why would you need memorization on a light with a control dial? Are we getting that lazy in this day and age where turning a knob is too much work? Maybe it would be a gimmick to add memory to a light with variable control, so you can do both, but I can't even see a memory function even improving anything like efficiency or quickness, as it would take maybe a millisecond more time to turn the dial than to click a button... Now we are splitting hairs, and to be honest, a control dial is much more precise with whatever level of light you need, not being at the mercy of pre-set lumen levels that a company or some internet guru claimed would be best for "x" light levels.


 Memorization on a light is no different then presets on a car radio, you don’t really need it but it is convenient and a preference for most. Just like you have a preference for lower lumens.


----------



## Knight_Light

*Re: Proposed New Armytek Wizard Pro UI:*



beamon said:


> I support the rheostatic ring idea for varying the level of light. It's what I like best about my Surefire Minimus. For those concerned about gauging runtimes at specific lumen levels, I think it would be VERY EASY for a manufacturer to include little notches in the movement of the ring, to let the user gauge specific lumen levels along the way. The user could start with the light off, and count the notches felt while turning the ring up, to know the specific level, and so be able to gauge the runtime. Clicking buttons should just be for switching modes (eg from beam to strobes to metering voltage, whatever).


 Your idea is a good one and has been implemented by other manufacturers to solve the unknown runtime dilemma. Magnetic or rheostatic switchers are a lot more prone to failure especially in dirty and muddy environments. Since most headlamps see outdoor use of one kind or another it is probably a bad idea for reliability of the headlamp.


----------



## Knight_Light

*Re: Proposed New Armytek Wizard Pro UI:*



Trevtrain said:


> Is this just on the pre-production lights you reviewed or have you recieved your production samples yet?


 I have not yet received the production samples so I cannot comment.


----------



## Knight_Light

ArcticHighlander said:


> Knight Light: could you test the 10 meter waterproof spec when you get the production light? I'm curious if it could be used for snorkeling or diving. The H600 is only guaranteed at 2 meters for 30 minutes. The Wizard Pro could give full time in Turbo underwater assuming it can handle that depth.


1st​ of all when a headlamp or any other light receives a waterproof rating it is usually a static one. I do plan on doing a waterproof test down to 15 feet which will be a dynamic waterproof test and will surpass the rigors of a static 10 m test. I’m waiting to get the production model before I do those tests. I have however left it in a gallon jug without any problems.

Having said that I wouldn’t rely on this headlamp as a diving light especially since they have dedicated diving lights with much higher ratings for not much more money.


----------



## jonathanluu2

cronus said:


> jonathanluu2, check the mark your ring made on the light. From my experience, the anodizing doesn't actually scratch, it scrapes off part of the SS. I use the clip regularly and you can see where the clip material has become embedded in the ano texture.



Sorry if I was unclear. The Ano. is just fine as far as I can tell. The mark is in the SS bezel around the lense. I thought I remembered seeing something about "Titanium coated bezel" but maybe I was getting it mixed up with the Predator? Its not on the spec sheet for the Wizard.



psychbeat said:


> Thanks for the review Jonathan ^^^
> 
> Maybe all of these firmware issues will be sorted by the time the NW is released.



Thanks psychbeat. I hope so too.


As a side note. Looks like all the headlamps are out of stock on their website. Perhaps pulling them off the shelf until they get the firmware bugs worked out?


----------



## Knight_Light

*Re: Proposed New Armytek Wizard Pro UI:*



jonathanluu2 said:


> (Platypus makes an awesome hydration pack btw. Fantastic.)


 1st​ of all thank you for a wonderful post it is very informative and the pictures I feel do justice to the headlamp (although I personally do not notice a greenish tint on the low firefly). As far as the platypus hydration pack I would have to give it a thumbs down. They do make some very good flat water bottles though and a wine bladder.


----------



## Knight_Light

cronus said:


> jonathanluu2, check the mark your ring made on the light. From my experience, the anodizing doesn't actually scratch, it scrapes off part of the SS. I use the clip regularly and you can see where the clip material has become embedded in the ano texture.


 As I reported in earlier posts the pocket clip could have been designed better and most definitely scratches off the anodizing. It also happens fairly quickly I noticed marks after the 1st time installing and then removing the pocket clip. To me though it's not that big of a deal as it is merely cosmetic.


----------



## Lampyridae

Trevtrain said:


> Have you read this entire thread? http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb...Term-Testing&p=4246010&viewfull=1#post4246010
> 
> I tested it at 18C ambient temperature in an outdoor tailstanding test with a fair breeze and ran it for 30 mins with no problems at all. The only reason I cut the test short was I was getting tired of sitting out there in the middle of the night.
> I have no IR thermometer but periodic brief "gripping" of the light gave no indication of further temperature increase after the 15 min mark.
> 
> Running it in a glass of water is NOT required.
> 
> 
> 
> Like someone else in here, it appears you do not properly understand the specs. The "constant brightness" refers to the fact that output is regulated and does not drop as the battery voltage decreases. This is completely independent of the thermal stepdown feature. This discussion has been done to death and can be found in previous posts.
> 
> 
> 
> I think you need to grab a coffee, sit down and read the entire thread. Changes between the pre-production models Knight_Light reviewed and production versions shipped to customers like you and I have been clearly documented. I'm sorry but your statement makes no sense.




So you managed to push it up to 30 mins. Good for you, but I asked something else. Also, forgret about 18°C in southern europe these days and nights.

I am reading this thread from the day 1. Constant brightnes is constant in all modes except in turbo mode because thermal protection kicks in after 5-6 minutes and doesn't allow the light to show its full potential through regulated output without output dropping as voltage decreases. It doesn't matter to me if its thermal protection or timer protection, like on some other brands. Fact is that after 5-6 minutes, instead of constant light in turbo mode, I get 3rd low. freq. strobo mode. I understood thermal protection exactly as it was explained in this thread. As something what will kick in under some circumstances (80°C), but with warning notice first. Instead of that, I got lamp which works in turbo mode more than 5 minutes only under some circumstances like water, bike riding... If you new all about that when you purchased yours (before some posts here) - congratulations!

I don't drink coffe. Changes between prototype and production version were not clearly documented on Armytek pages or on this thread when I purchased mine. After lens O-ring imperfections, after lockup issue, after decreasing thermal protection temp without any warning before as it is stated in my manual I feel fooled.

Wizard Pro Limited XM-L2 U3 cost me 165$ (with all additional costs I had to pay - part of it to FedEx agent here)

Cheers!


----------



## beamon

*Re: Proposed New Armytek Wizard Pro UI:*



Knight_Light said:


> Your idea is a good one and has been implemented by other manufacturers to solve the unknown runtime dilemma. Magnetic or rheostatic switchers are a lot more prone to failure especially in dirty and muddy environments. Since most headlamps see outdoor use of one kind or another it is probably a bad idea for reliability of the headlamp.



Thanks for your comment. Because I'm unaware of any high-quality headlamp manufacturer other than Surefire that uses a metal rheostatic device to control light levels, and because I don't see anything on the Surefire CPF thread that complains about breakdowns in mud, I respectfully question your response on whether a notched rheostatic ring would be a good idea for headlamps. I can see that it's too late for Armytek to incorporate such a ring in its design of the WizardPros, but it's obvious to me, from reading this thread, that Armytek has quixotically overstepped the limits of what can be done with a single button to control all aspects of headlamp use.


----------



## EsthetiX

*Re: Proposed New Armytek Wizard Pro UI:*

Sits nicely on my bike bars. Perfect flood for night trails


----------



## Trevtrain

Lampyridae said:


> So you managed to push it up to 30 mins. Good for you, but I asked something else. Also, forgret about 18°C in southern europe these days and nights.



Fair enough. You asked if anyone had managed to get an hour of turbo _under any circumstances._ I don't recall you mentioning Southern Europe in July. I apologise for not waiting until summer here and sitting outside for another half hour just for you.



Lampyridae said:


> I am reading this thread from the day 1. Constant brightnes is constant in all modes except in turbo mode because thermal protection kicks in after 5-6 minutes and doesn't allow the light to show its full potential through regulated output without output dropping as voltage decreases. It doesn't matter to me if its thermal protection or timer protection, like on some other brands. Fact is that after 5-6 minutes, instead of constant light in turbo mode, I get 3rd low. freq. strobo mode. I understood thermal protection exactly as it was explained in this thread. As something what will kick in under some circumstances (80°C), but with warning notice first. Instead of that, I got lamp which works in turbo mode more than 5 minutes only under some circumstances like water, bike riding... If you new all about that when you purchased yours (before some posts here) - congratulations!



_(Notwithstanding that a tailstanding test with no airflow on the maximum output is hardly representative of "typical use" for most people..........)_

Again, it's down to your interpretation I guess. We could debate semantics as has already been done in previous posts but I really don't see the point. Rather than concentrating on what you "think" the specs meant perhaps you could look at the laws of physics for a moment. 
Can you show me ANY light with a similar surface area pushing 1000 LED lumens that won't suffer thermal issues in a tailstanding test on Turbo with no airflow? 
You state that you understood thermal protection so I am assuming you also understand why it is needed.

I agree that they cocked up the warning indicator on the production model. I was expecting to see colour changes as well.





Lampyridae said:


> I don't drink coffe. Changes between prototype and production version were not clearly documented on Armytek pages or on this thread when I purchased mine. After lens O-ring imperfections, after lockup issue, after decreasing thermal protection temp without any warning before as it is stated in my manual I feel fooled.



I wouldn't expect changes between the pre-production model and the production version to appear on Armytek's pages. I don't think any manufacturer makes a common practice of releasing what is in essence "internal developmental information" to the buying public. There was quite a bit of chatter over at CPFMarketplace though. 
You are correct - changes have been only been documented here since we started recieving our production versions. I guess it depends on when you ordered.

The O-ring issue was only in one case I've seen so far. Lens imperfections have shown up several times. Both show flaws in the final QA processes. 
The lockups are widespread and the indicator issue is also well-documented. A firmware solution is being developed for these at present. 

Yes, software bugs are annoying but I guess we can be thankful that this light wasn't built by Microsoft.



Lampyridae said:


> Wizard Pro Limited XM-L2 U3 cost me 165$ (with all additional costs I had to pay - part of it to FedEx agent here)



That sucks - I can understand why you are unhappy.
I also wonder about the cost of returning it to Armytek.


----------



## psychbeat

I don't really see why these need thermal protection at all. 

What's turbo ~3a? 
The only time I've had issues with heat damaging a light (and most of mine are WAYY overdriven) is from an almost TOTALLY un-sinked p60 pill with 2XPG driven @2.8a. 
I ran it for months like that - many times for 40-60min. (Using 4 18650 in parallel) 
When I finally removed the lens & the pill one of the emitters slid off as the solder had become brittle from so many heat cycles. 

Anyways, my point is even with the minimal mass these lights are not overdriven so there shouldn't be a problem running them on max for a full cells worth. 

It's not going to hurt the emitter- xml2 can take 6+amps if mounted on copper PCB. 

The non stepdown is what really got me excited about one of these over an H600W.


----------



## Trevtrain

psychbeat said:


> I don't really see why these need thermal protection at all.
> 
> What's turbo ~3a?
> The only time I've had issues with heat damaging a light (and most of mine are WAYY overdriven) is from an almost TOTALLY un-sinked p60 pill with 2XPG driven @2.8a.
> I ran it for months like that - many times for 40-60min. (Using 4 18650 in parallel)
> When I finally removed the lens & the pill one of the emitters slid off as the solder had become brittle from so many heat cycles.
> 
> Anyways, my point is even with the minimal mass these lights are not overdriven so there shouldn't be a problem running them on max for a full cells worth.
> 
> It's not going to hurt the emitter- xml2 can take 6+amps if mounted on copper PCB.
> 
> The non stepdown is what really got me excited about one of these over an H600W.



I was pretty impressed when I read Knight_Light's initial testing too. However, I was a little concerned at the long-term effects of so much heat on the emitter and electronics.

Maybe you are correct and damage to the light is unlikely at these temperatures but there could be another reason.

My initial indoor tailstanding test resulted in stepdown at around the 5 min mark. At that time, the head of the light was so hot that it was painful to hold - and I have fairly tough old hands. If Knight-Light's pre-production version got to 10-15 degrees C higher, it must have been fearsome.

What do you suppose would happen if a child picked up the light at these temperatures? Or an unsuspecting adult with a penchant for lawsuits? I doubt that simply printing "Caution - Hot Surface" would be enough to safeguard them from legal and saftey issues in a world where someone can sue McDonalds for not telling them that their hot coffee was hot. 

This is small light designed to be strapped to the forehead. Even the uneducated can be reasonably expected not to put their hands on a boiliing kettle, but who else but a flashaholic would know not to pick up a flashight sitting on a table during a blackout?


----------



## psychbeat

Trevtrain said:


> I was pretty impressed when I read Knight_Light's initial testing too. However, I was a little concerned at the long-term effects of so much heat on the emitter and electronics.
> 
> Maybe you are correct and damage to the light is unlikely at these temperatures but there could be another reason.
> 
> My initial indoor tailstanding test resulted in stepdown at around the 5 min mark. At that time, the head of the light was so hot that it was painful to hold - and I have fairly tough old hands. If Knight-Light's pre-production version got to 10-15 degrees C higher, it must have been fearsome.
> 
> What do you suppose would happen if a child picked up the light at these temperatures? Or an unsuspecting adult with a penchant for lawsuits? I doubt that simply printing "Caution - Hot Surface" would be enough to safeguard them from legal and saftey issues in a world where someone can sue McDonalds for not telling them that their hot coffee was hot.
> 
> This is small light designed to be strapped to the forehead. Even the uneducated can be reasonably expected not to put their hands on a boiliing kettle, but who else but a flashaholic would know not to pick up a flashight sitting on a table during a blackout?



Yah...maybe I need to stick with modded/custom lights. . .

I still doubt a single cell light can get hot enough to cause burns from just picking it up. 

None of my overdriven lights have burnt me although they do get hot enough to make you drop em like a hot potato if u grab em by the head. 

Never scalded the skin tho. 

I don't want to debate liability & take the thread off topic - I can easily imagine lawsuits... Ugh. 

Converting my spark 460nw to a standard p60 driver requires the switch to be removed and the UI operated by twisting the tailcap on & off. 
Kind of cumbersome with more than two modes + I hate the floppy holder. 

Was hoping this light might be the answer for a small hi-ish powered HL for backpacking & backup/loaner bike light. 

If the light stepped down while riding a technical trail the results could be VERY bad.


----------



## Lampyridae

Trevtrain said:


> Can you show me ANY light with a similar surface area pushing 1000 LED lumens that won't suffer thermal issues in a tailstanding test on Turbo with no airflow?



Yes I can. I think prototype version of this light is close enough. Also, I must say once more this has nothing to do with Knight_lights testing. He did his testing as good as he could with pre-production sample he got from Armytek. After comparing his results (no therm. protect. kick in under 80°C) with official PDF manual on Armytek page, there was only one conclusion possible for me as a buyer and it has nothing to do with what I "think".
Anyway, thank you for your explanations and participation in this debate. To be honest with you, I don't use turbo all the time. I use 250lm (it's 267 on my model) level and it is enough for my regular use, but when I need the highest possible output I can't be sure if I'm gonna need it for 2, for 5 or for 35 minutes and in what circumstances.

Thera are lots of posts explaining good things about this light and I just wanted to balance it because of issues I have. Not to be peevish, I can also confirm that lamp is solid build, I personally like UI and it took me 10 minutes to get into it. The 70/120 model I have is perfect combination that suits my needs and I really like those TIR lenses. Also, thumbs up for Armitek service. I allways got replay from Sandra in an hour or two, but we shall see how will they manage this issues I have...


----------



## petr9999

*Re: Proposed New Armytek Wizard Pro UI:*

try getting one of those paralel holders, it looks much nicer!!! 


EsthetiX said:


> Sits nicely on my bike bars. Perfect flood for night trails


----------



## jonathanluu2

*Re: Proposed New Armytek Wizard Pro UI:*



Knight_Light said:


> As far as the platypus hydration pack I would have to give it a thumbs down. They do make some very good flat water bottles though and a wine bladder.


Sad! Perhaps we have different uses/wants from our packs. I will definitely agree on your latter recommendations!



beamon said:


> [stuff]...*quixotically*...[more stuff i wasnt paying attention to]



sorry, I laughed when I saw that word. Never read it in my life and it sounded funny. I had to look it up. Someone did well on their EOG's/SAT's/OWL's.

Back on subject!

I would think that it would be very difficult to argue that one was a victim of Armytek's hot lights. I mean i can at least see that the lady who got hot coffee on her couldnt do anything about it once it was on her, whereas a hot light can be instantly dropped, whacked, shuffled, swatted away. Perhaps I give humanity too much credit? I guess too much is better than the opposite.


----------



## Knight_Light

*Re: Proposed New Armytek Wizard Pro UI:*



beamon said:


> Thanks for your comment. Because I'm unaware of any high-quality headlamp manufacturer other than Surefire that uses a metal rheostatic device to control light levels, and because I don't see anything on the Surefire CPF thread that complains about breakdowns in mud, I respectfully question your response on whether a notched rheostatic ring would be a good idea for headlamps. I can see that it's too late for Armytek to incorporate such a ring in its design of the WizardPros, but it's obvious to me, from reading this thread, that Armytek has quixotically overstepped the limits of what can be done with a single button to control all aspects of headlamp use.


There are several headlamp manufacturer’s that use either rheostatic or magnetic to control light level outputs (NITEYE HA30 for example). And as far as lights go in general there are a ton of manufacturers that incorporate this type of light level control. If you research flashlights instead of headlamps you will find enough information, that with time these types of controls need servicing, even if it is cleaning (which is oftentimes impossible due to design limitations). If you want to test the reliability of any such light just take it into a caving environment (one of the most demanding in my opinion) and do some hard-core caving, you will soon see which lights last and which ones start to fail over a period of time (mud has a strange way of working itself into the strangest of places).


----------



## Knight_Light

*Re: Proposed New Armytek Wizard Pro UI:*



jonathanluu2 said:


> Sad! Perhaps we have different uses/wants from our packs. I will definitely agree on your latter recommendations!


 For me they just don’t manage the internal space well. Check out Osprey they make some pretty awesome packs for the money and the best hydration bladder (in my opinion, it’s all relative as I’ve yet to see a perfect hydration bladder). Arc'teryx coupled with an Osprey hydration bladder is also a great combination.


----------



## cronus

*Re: Proposed New Armytek Wizard Pro UI:*

Update from Armytek. I asked about the next steps and Sandra told me to ship the light back to China the "cheapest way possible" and let her know when it is sent. 
The firmware lockup issue should be fixed by the time the light gets there. 
Once the light arrives, they will send a new one back (in another email it was stated that my light would be fixed and sent back; doesn't matter to me).
They will reimburse my postage up to $15. Untracked Air Mail to China for me is right around $11.
I have asked about the unlikely scenario where the light gets lost in transit without a tracking number. I'll keep you posted on that one.
I'll probably send it out on Monday. The sooner it goes out, the sooner I can get it back.


----------



## beamon

*Re: Proposed New Armytek Wizard Pro UI:*



Knight_Light said:


> There are several headlamp manufacturer’s that use either rheostatic or magnetic to control light level outputs (NITEYE HA30 for example). And as far as lights go in general there are a ton of manufacturers that incorporate this type of light level control. If you research flashlights instead of headlamps you will find enough information, that with time these types of controls need servicing, even if it is cleaning (which is oftentimes impossible due to design limitations). If you want to test the reliability of any such light just take it into a caving environment (one of the most demanding in my opinion) and do some hard-core caving, you will soon see which lights last and which ones start to fail over a period of time (mud has a strange way of working itself into the strangest of places).



NITEYE HA30 uses a notches-only ring, without the smooth continuous adjustment available to a Surefire Minimus. I'm recommending a smooth rheostatic ring, with several little notches along the way that can be felt to gauge the lumen levels, from zero to whatever, for a user making adjustments in the dark. Also, I don't see complaints on the CPF thread about the NITEYE HA30 breaking down in muddy conditions. I'm not sure what your sources of information are about widespread experience with rheostatic flashlights vs button-only ones becoming dysfunctional from muddy use. Are there really any statistics on this?


----------



## bradthebold

*Re: Proposed New Armytek Wizard Pro UI:*



cronus said:


> Update from Armytek. I asked about the next steps and Sandra told me to ship the light back to China the "cheapest way possible" and let her know when it is sent.
> The firmware lockup issue should be fixed by the time the light gets there.
> Once the light arrives, they will send a new one back (in another email it was stated that my light would be fixed and sent back; doesn't matter to me).
> They will reimburse my postage up to $15. Untracked Air Mail to China for me is right around $11.
> I have asked about the unlikely scenario where the light gets lost in transit without a tracking number. I'll keep you posted on that one.
> I'll probably send it out on Monday. The sooner it goes out, the sooner I can get it back.



How long is the estimate for you for shipping? I was told the same thing with a mix of fixing the light and receiving a new one. I'm still in the return period at least, and she would not send me a new light before I sent mine back, so I'll have to be without the light for weeks(?) because of a manufacturer defect. That's stupid.

I also asked whether the warning system has been fixed/changed yet, but have not received a reply. I want everything fixed before I send my light away. Plus saying it should be fixed by the time the light gets there is not very encouraging. They were blaming people about misusing the light at first, so I don't have the most confidence they know what they're doing. I'll wait until there's a definite solution already in place for the lockouts and warning system.


----------



## psychbeat

beamon said:


> NITEYE HA30 uses a notches-only ring, without the smooth continuous adjustment available to a Surefire Minimus. I'm recommending a smooth rheostatic ring, with several little notches along the way that can be felt to gauge the lumen levels, from zero to whatever, for a user making adjustments in the dark. Also, I don't see complaints on the CPF thread about the NITEYE HA30 breaking down in muddy conditions. I'm not sure what your sources of information are about widespread experience with rheostatic flashlights vs button-only ones becoming dysfunctional from muddy use. Are there really any statistics on this?



Idk- anything that twists with fine adjustment sounds like a potential failure point to me. 

Some headlamps(Stenlight) use a magnetic system but that can affect other instruments. 

Just saying - I don't have any so I'm just being critical with no personal experience 

I'm super hard on my lights tho & tend to break stuff in the field 

ie. I crash a lot  

It's too bad lights with electronic switches like these are so hard to do driver mods on. 
I wonder if there's a way to reprogram the driver by the user?


----------



## Trevtrain

*Re: Proposed New Armytek Wizard Pro UI:*



bradthebold said:


> I'm still in the return period at least,



If the warranty is 10 years, what do you mean by the return period?



bradthebold said:


> I also asked whether the warning system has been fixed/changed yet, but have not received a reply. I want everything fixed before I send my light away. Plus saying it should be fixed by the time the light gets there is not very encouraging. ...........I'll wait until there's a definite solution already in place for the lockouts and warning system.



AFAIK from CPFMP threads, the engineers are still developing the fix. Fixing the lockout has been mentioned as the priority issue but if anyone has not been over there (marketplace) I strongly suggest you have a look.
http://www.cpfmarketplace.com/mp/sh...mytek-wizard&p=4768751&viewfull=1#post4768751

There are seven issues/suggestions Armytek are "trying to realize" in the new firmware. Not only are they looking to address the lockup and thermal indicator but are also trying to incorporate a few other changes based on requests from CPF (and other forums) members.

Like you Brad, I can live with the current issues in my light for a little while and would also prefer to wait until I can see the results of the new firmware after reports start coming in from those who get it. I understand that others may want or need a fix ASAP.

The whole business is certainly inconvenient but to be fair they are addressing the issues and responding to customer feedback. At this point they have acknowledged the faults and are "making it right" (apparently even including offering assistance with return postage?)
I am much more impressed with the way this is being handled than I am with the "wall-of-silence" approach adopted by a certain other company with switch boot problems.


----------



## ArcticHighlander

*Re: Proposed New Armytek Wizard Pro UI:*



cronus said:


> Update from Armytek. I asked about the next steps and Sandra told me to ship the light back to China the "cheapest way possible" and let her know when it is sent.
> The firmware lockup issue should be fixed by the time the light gets there.
> Once the light arrives, they will send a new one back (in another email it was stated that my light would be fixed and sent back; doesn't matter to me).
> They will reimburse my postage up to $15. Untracked Air Mail to China for me is right around $11.
> I have asked about the unlikely scenario where the light gets lost in transit without a tracking number. I'll keep you posted on that one.
> I'll probably send it out on Monday. The sooner it goes out, the sooner I can get it back.


Sent mine today via USPS Int. 1st Class w/tracking. Was $9.45 plus about $6 gas, addressing & packaging, 1 hour driving time, waiting in line, filling out customs form. My FastTech battery order shipped from Hong Kong using this method and took one week. I looked up FedEx economy for the same 2.8oz that I weighed my return package at and they wanted $90.40


----------



## tony613

*New issue with Wizard Pro, 100% reproducible*



I came across this issue while riding my bicycle tonight. In my light I noticed from day one that there is space enough inside the tube to hear the battery rattling around when the light is tapped either on its side or end. The problem appears to occur when the light is jarred, causing an open circuit, and it occurs either when the switch LED indicators are enabled or disabled. This is demonstrated in the video when hitting the light on the tail cap which apparently compresses the spring enough to cause the circuit to open briefly. 

As you can see in the video, the spring is slightly above the rim of the tail cap, just as I received it, and I am using the battery supplied by Armytek. The tail cap was screwed securely in place, and the switch indicator is enabled _(different mode than previously reported issues)_. Note the jarring motion does not need to be that severe. In the video, whether you believe it or not, I'm not hitting the light that hard (especially the second time) and you can clearly hear the battery moving within the light tube. 

When it occurred tonight, the light was mounted horizontally on my handlebars (see pictures below), on a road bike, while riding on a smooth road surface. After turning the light on it went off twice in about 10 minutes. 

When this has occurred several things have happened. One you saw in the video where the light can be turned back on again. The other conditions I've seen have been that the light changed into tactical mode (light comes on only when pressure is applied to switch), and it has gone into "lockout mode" as well (unable to turn light on at all until end cap is loosened for several seconds).


----------



## bradthebold

*Re: Proposed New Armytek Wizard Pro UI:*



Trevtrain said:


> If the warranty is 10 years, what do you mean by the return period?
> 
> 
> 
> AFAIK from CPFMP threads, the engineers are still developing the fix. Fixing the lockout has been mentioned as the priority issue but if anyone has not been over there (marketplace) I strongly suggest you have a look.
> http://www.cpfmarketplace.com/mp/sh...mytek-wizard&p=4768751&viewfull=1#post4768751
> 
> There are seven issues/suggestions Armytek are "trying to realize" in the new firmware. Not only are they looking to address the lockup and thermal indicator but are also trying to incorporate a few other changes based on requests from CPF (and other forums) members.
> 
> Like you Brad, I can live with the current issues in my light for a little while and would also prefer to wait until I can see the results of the new firmware after reports start coming in from those who get it. I understand that others may want or need a fix ASAP.
> 
> The whole business is certainly inconvenient but to be fair they are addressing the issues and responding to customer feedback. At this point they have acknowledged the faults and are "making it right" (apparently even including offering assistance with return postage?)
> I am much more impressed with the way this is being handled than I am with the "wall-of-silence" approach adopted by a certain other company with switch boot problems.



I just meant I'm within the 30 day return period, so they could refund me and send a new one. I'm not sure, their way seems like it would be weeks without a light.

Thanks for the link too, those sound like great improvements and I would much rather wait until they are all implemented.


----------



## bradthebold

*Re: New issue with Wizard Pro, 100% reproducible*



tony613 said:


> I came across this issue while riding my bicycle tonight. In my light I noticed from day one that there is space enough inside the tube to hear the battery rattling around when the light is tapped either on its side or end. The problem appears to occur when the light is jarred, causing an open circuit, and it occurs either when the switch LED indicators are enabled or disabled. This is demonstrated in the video when hitting the light on the tail cap which apparently compresses the spring enough to cause the circuit to open briefly.
> 
> As you can see in the video, the spring is slightly above the rim of the tail cap, just as I received it, and I am using the battery supplied by Armytek. The tail cap was screwed securely in place, and the switch indicator is enabled _(different mode than previously reported issues)_. Note the jarring motion does not need to be that severe. In the video, whether you believe it or not, I'm not hitting the light that hard (especially the second time) and you can clearly hear the battery moving within the light tube.
> 
> When it occurred tonight, the light was mounted horizontally on my handlebars (see pictures below), on a road bike, while riding on a smooth road surface. After turning the light on it went off twice in about 10 minutes.
> 
> When this has occurred several things have happened. One you saw in the video where the light can be turned back on again. The other conditions I've seen have been that the light changed into tactical mode (light comes on only when pressure is applied to switch), and it has gone into "lockout mode" as well (unable to turn light on at all until end cap is loosened for several seconds).



I gave this a try and the light shut off on the first bump. A new issue I didn't even know about.


----------



## psychbeat

The rattling battery is a problem I've had with my handlebar mounted flashlights. 

I usually cure it with taping the cell &/or stretching the springs. Sometimes ill add an additional piece of copper braid to the tailcap spring to cut down some resistance and also to firm things up.

It's the trade off for being able to use protected or regular cells.


----------



## Knight_Light

tony613: Good catch on the problem. This definitely happens on the preproduction unit as well. The strange thing about this is I do a lot of physical activities and the headlamp has gotten jarred around and it never happened until I deliberately slapped the battery tube (and you are right it does not take much effort).

As psychbeat said this is a trade-off between the headlamp having the flexibility/ability to utilize unprotected and protected cells. I have had this issue with other lights in the past and there is an easy solution. Either switch to protected cells which are longer or get yourself some magnets to artificially enlarge the unprotected smaller cells. This works phenomenally well (the magnet solution).

I think if you were to change the design so that this phenomenon doesn’t happen with unprotected cells you would develop other problems such as protected large-size cells being crushed or not even being able to be utilized (this is a problem zebra light has with large cells). So I don’t really think that this needs to be fixed by the manufacturer as there really is no solution that would satisfy both protected and unprotected cells.


----------



## Trevtrain

Knight_Light said:


> So I don’t really think that this needs to be fixed by the manufacturer as there really is no solution that would satisfy both protected and unprotected cells.



I'm not suggesting Armytek needs to "fix" it for this headlamp, but don't some manufacturers put springs in both the tailcap and head for precisely this reason? (Lights designed for weapon mounting for instance?) 

Obviously this would add a little extra length to the light but by using suitably sized springs with sufficient stiffness they should be able to accomdate a wide range of cell lengths.


----------



## Knight_Light

Trevtrain said:


> I'm not suggesting Armytek needs to "fix" it for this headlamp, but don't some manufacturers put springs in both the tailcap and head for precisely this reason? (Lights designed for weapon mounting for instance?)
> 
> Obviously this would add a little extra length to the light but by using suitably sized springs with sufficient stiffness they should be able to accomdate a wide range of cell lengths.


 They do that with certain lights and it is actually a good idea on larger lights. But this is already a large sized headlamp if you were to incorporate this feature it would make it too big to EDC and you will turn away a larger consumer base. I honestly think they should just supply you with perfectly matched magnets that you can attach to unprotected cells. I know that it kind of sounds hokey, but not only does it work it works extremely well and is no difference then some of the charger manufacturers including spacers for smaller batteries.


----------



## psychbeat

Trevtrain said:


> I'm not suggesting Armytek needs to "fix" it for this headlamp, but don't some manufacturers put springs in both the tailcap and head for precisely this reason? (Lights designed for weapon mounting for instance?)
> 
> Obviously this would add a little extra length to the light but by using suitably sized springs with sufficient stiffness they should be able to accomdate a wide range of cell lengths.



Nope- it still happens with two spring lights - like most p60 hosts. 

U just need to wrap it with a slip of paper (for friction) or tape or stretch the spring or add another spring or magnet. Etc. 

Or buy longer cells - I prefer unprotected in single cell lights so frequently have to tune my springs to combat this phenomenon


----------



## Trevtrain

Hmmmm....?

So I guess weapon lights would often be single-mode clickies where a momentary interruption to the circuit would not matter/cause a change of state.

I am assuming you would put the magnet at the tailcap end (-ve) of the cell?
If put at the positive end, do you think that a magnet would pose much risk of moving and shorting against any of the contact points shown on the back of the driver? (Probably with very unhappy results.)


----------



## tony613

*Re: New issue with Wizard Pro, 100% reproducible*


I understood why the extra space was provided, but the additional information is still welcome. However this problem occurs with the Wizard using protected batteries as well. Note it happens more easily and more often in higher output modes, with both battery sizes/types. 
The protected battery in my case:
Eagletac 3100mAh Protected Cell - Manufacturer Dimensions: 18.6mm x 68mm (+/-0.1mm)

For comparison: (also see picture below)
Armytek Supplied Panasonic 3100mAh Unprotected Cell - Manufacturer Dimensions: 18.6mm x 65.2mm

The light going dark while being jarred issue does not and has never occurred with the Zebralight H600w using the longer, protected battery, nor has that light "crushed" the longer battery, as has been suggested. To the contrary, the protected battery has worked without exception in the H600w for 19 months, with the H600w being put to harder use than the Wizard Pro. The longer protected battery does have swirl scratches on the bottom from the pressure of the spring on the H600w tail cap, occurring during battery changes/charges. These appear to be only cosmetic and have not affected the capability of the battery. 

Additionally, the shorter, unprotected battery also works without issue in the H600w, without modification to the battery or the headlamp.


----------



## Knight_Light

Trevtrain said:


> I am assuming you would put the magnet at the tailcap end (-ve) of the cell?


 Yes you would put the magnet at the tail cap end.


----------



## Knight_Light

*Re: New issue with Wizard Pro, 100% reproducible*



tony613 said:


> I understood why the extra space was provided, but the additional information is still welcome. However this problem occurs with the Wizard using protected batteries as well. Note it happens more easily and more often in higher output modes, with both battery sizes/types.
> The protected battery in my case:
> Eagletac 3100mAh Protected Cell - Manufacturer Dimensions: 18.6mm x 68mm (+/-0.1mm)
> 
> For comparison: (also see picture below)
> Armytek Supplied Panasonic 3100mAh Unprotected Cell - Manufacturer Dimensions: 18.6mm x 65.2mm
> 
> The light going dark while being jarred issue does not and has never occurred with the Zebralight H600w using the longer, protected battery, nor has that light "crushed" the longer battery, as has been suggested. To the contrary, the protected battery has worked without exception in the H600w for 19 months, with the H600w being put to harder use than the Wizard Pro. The longer protected battery does have swirl scratches on the bottom from the pressure of the spring on the H600w tail cap, occurring during battery changes/charges. These appear to be only cosmetic and have not affected the capability of the battery.
> 
> Additionally, the shorter, unprotected battery also works without issue in the H600w, without modification to the battery or the headlamp.


 Although the Eagletac battery is an awesome battery it is a poor choice for this example as it is considerably shorter then most other protected cells. There are a lot of longer protected batteries that have an issue with zebra light battery tubes.


----------



## ArcticHighlander

*Re: New issue with Wizard Pro, 100% reproducible*



tony613 said:


> I understood why the extra space was provided, but the additional information is still welcome. However this problem occurs with the Wizard using protected batteries as well. Note it happens more easily and more often in higher output modes, with both battery sizes/types.
> The protected battery in my case:
> Eagletac 3100mAh Protected Cell - Manufacturer Dimensions: 18.6mm x 68mm (+/-0.1mm)
> 
> For comparison: (also see picture below)
> Armytek Supplied Panasonic 3100mAh Unprotected Cell - Manufacturer Dimensions: 18.6mm x 65.2mm
> 
> The light going dark while being jarred issue does not and has never occurred with the Zebralight H600w using the longer, protected battery, nor has that light "crushed" the longer battery, as has been suggested. To the contrary, the protected battery has worked without exception in the H600w for 19 months, with the H600w being put to harder use than the Wizard Pro. The longer protected battery does have swirl scratches on the bottom from the pressure of the spring on the H600w tail cap, occurring during battery changes/charges. These appear to be only cosmetic and have not affected the capability of the battery.
> 
> Additionally, the shorter, unprotected battery also works without issue in the H600w, without modification to the battery or the headlamp.



I do think that this is a problem that can and should be fixed by Armytek. As you described all lights that are made to take both protected and unprotected batteries don't have this problem and they wouldn't have to make it too large for everyday carry to accommodate both reliably. I also have the much smaller H600 and also can't reproduce this problem using batteries from 65mm to 70mm both protected and unprotected. I can't check to see if my particular Wizard Pro had this problem because I already shipped it back to be replaced because of other defects. It does appear however that this is another common problem that can and should be fixed by Armytek before they start shipping out replacements. I'm amazed at the excuses being made for such a clear defect in this light.


----------



## Knight_Light

*Re: New issue with Wizard Pro, 100% reproducible*



ArcticHighlander said:


> I do think that this is a problem that can and should be fixed by Armytek. As you described all lights that are made to take both protected and unprotected batteries don't have this problem and they wouldn't have to make it too large for everyday carry to accommodate both reliably. I also have the much smaller H600 and also can't reproduce this problem using batteries from 65mm to 70mm both protected and unprotected. I can't check to see if my particular Wizard Pro had this problem because I already shipped it back to be replaced because of other defects. It does appear however that this is another common problem that can and should be fixed by Armytek before they start shipping out replacements. I'm amazed at the excuses being made for such a clear defect in this light.


I really don’t think this is a defect. This is a design decision that they made. Remember 18650 batteries are no longer standard, they vary greatly from one another in size. This is a design decision to be able to incorporate different size batteries. If they made the battery tube the perfect size for the unprotected cell that they sell (me personally I would be okay with this since this is primarily the battery I use) you would have issues with larger batteries.

An easy solution would be to include spacers (just like chargers do) for shorter batteries, the best spacers I can think of would be magnetic attaching to the bottom of the battery (this solution has worked successfully for other lights that had this problem).


----------



## psychbeat

Yah- u can't win with this one. 

Plenty of posts about crushed cells in multiple brands. 


I've had to tailor/tune the springs in quite a few lights:

4sevens mini123
Surefire C-2 bored w mcClicky 
Multiple Solarforce L2Ps & L2M
Fivemega dual 18650 P60 Dsize
And even the battery box of my Cavelight had to be adjusted for the cells I'm using in it. 

My Spark has really stiff springs & has slightly dented a couple of cells too. 

Just sayin...


----------



## ArcticHighlander

*Re: New issue with Wizard Pro, 100% reproducible*



Knight_Light said:


> I really don’t think this is a defect. This is a design decision that they made. Remember 18650 batteries are no longer standard, they vary greatly from one another in size. This is a design decision to be able to incorporate different size batteries. If they made the battery tube the perfect size for the unprotected cell that they sell (me personally I would be okay with this since this is primarily the battery I use) you would have issues with larger batteries.
> 
> An easy solution would be to include spacers (just like chargers do) for shorter batteries, the best spacers I can think of would be magnetic attaching to the bottom of the battery (this solution has worked successfully for other lights that had this problem).


Tony613 is having this problem both with a 65mm unprotected and a 68mm protected battery. It sounds like it doesn't matter what size/type battery is used; it appears to be a defect in the light. He also said it happens more easily and frequently in the higher output modes with both sizes/types of batteries.


----------



## Knight_Light

*Re: New issue with Wizard Pro, 100% reproducible*



ArcticHighlander said:


> Tony613 is having this problem both with a 65mm unprotected and a 68mm protected battery. It sounds like it doesn't matter what size/type battery is used; it appears to be a defect in the light. He also said it happens more easily and frequently in the higher output modes with both sizes/types of batteries.


 Like I said before the Eagletac battery is an awesome battery, however it is a poor choice for this example as it is considerably shorter then most other protected cells. They can shorten the battery tube but then everybody will complain about the longer batteries not been able to fit. I personally would be fine with this decision since I primarily use unprotected cells. The best solution is to leave it the way that it is and incorporate magnetic spacers.


----------



## Beacon of Light

*Re: New issue with Wizard Pro, 100% reproducible*

Considering we bought a light that should work without problems right from the factory, whose dime will this be on to get these magnetic spacers? Armytek going to send us out free magnetic spacers?


----------



## Knight_Light

*Re: New issue with Wizard Pro, 100% reproducible*



Beacon of Light said:


> Considering we bought a light that should work without problems right from the factory, whose dime will this be on to get these magnetic spacers? Armytek going to send us out free magnetic spacers?


Sending them out for free would be ridiculous considering they cost about 3 for a dollar. Lol

Having said that I think they should be included with new purchases by the manufacturer as a means of adjusting spring tension.


----------



## Beacon of Light

*Re: New issue with Wizard Pro, 100% reproducible*

you think a customer should eat the cost of an improper R&D done by the engineers when said light fails once in a customers hands? If this was a car, then this would be a typical recall issue not a cosmetic upgrade or add-on.


----------



## lightcycle1

I'm very very glad I did not spring for one of these 
It seems as it it were hastily designed and released with a plethora of faults and design oversights. By rights Armytek should recall every one of these, get the niggles worked out and send out new versions to those who bought them. Cant be more than a couple hundred units sold by now.


Sent from my SCH-S720C using Tapatalk 2


----------



## Knight_Light

*Re: New issue with Wizard Pro, 100% reproducible*



Beacon of Light said:


> you think a customer should eat the cost of an improper R&D done by the engineers when said light fails once in a customers hands? If this was a car, then this would be a typical recall issue not a cosmetic upgrade or add-on.


 I don't think the customer should eat the cost of improper R&D, as you recall I was one of the 1st ones to tell people to get warranty work done with the lockout problem. This however is not a case of improper R&D, nowhere is it stated that the light is supposed to suffer impact without the light being interrupted, and it works under normal circumstances with almost every imaginable 18650 battery out there. I have even dropped this light outdoors and it continue to work without shutting down.


----------



## dailydR1ver

*Re: New issue with Wizard Pro, 100% reproducible*



Knight_Light said:


> I don't think the customer should eat the cost of improper R&D, as you recall I was one of the 1st ones to tell people to get warranty work done with the lockout problem. This however is not a case of improper R&D, nowhere is it stated that the light is supposed to suffer impact without the light being interrupted, and it works under normal circumstances with almost every imaginable 18650 battery out there. I have even dropped this light outdoors and it continue to work without shutting down.




Correct, this is not an R&D issue. This light is marketed as a HEADlamp. I challenge someone to post a video of this light cutting off while being used as a HEADlamp and not get a concussion or neck injury as a result. How about this: try not to drop your light or smash it on something and it won't cut off.


----------



## tony613

*Re: New issue with Wizard Pro, 100% reproducible*

Unfortunately, as it stands now I cannot depend on it to work under my "normal circumstances", one of which being used while bicycling (that is, without modification from me in the form of magnets or mods to the spring). Understand I'm not against making modifications, but I want the modification recommendations to come directly from Armytek so that I do not void the warranty. 

I have had the Wizard Pro go out three times on two road rides, mounted horizontally so the majority of the jarring has been laterally, not vertically. As a point of comparison I've used the ZebraLight H600w under the same conditions, and also while mountain biking (more demanding conditions) without issue, so I did not believe my use was too extreme for the Wizard Pro. 

Additionally, I have now also reproduced the light "going out on being jarred" using the AW 2900 mAh protected battery (this is the battery with the three bumps on the negative terminal, to facilitate them being used in serial). For me, three out of three batteries, although it may be argued this is another poor choice of battery for this application because that battery is only about as long as the EagleTac. 

Batteries tested thus far by me personally that exhibit the problem of the light going out:EagleTac 3100 (protected) - during normal use
AW IC 2900 (protected) - hand held intentional tapping 
Panasonic unprotected (generously supplied by Armytek) - during normal use​
Note I'm not throwing stones. Since the issues began, my posts are simply reporting my personal experiences but leaving out personal opinions wherever possible (or at least that is my goal). Hopefully the information comes across that way.


----------



## Knight_Light

*Re: New issue with Wizard Pro, 100% reproducible*



tony613 said:


> Unfortunately, as it stands now I cannot depend on it to work under my "normal circumstances", one of which being used while bicycling (that is, without modification from me in the form of magnets or mods to the spring). Understand I'm not against making modifications, but I want the modification recommendations to come directly from Armytek so that I do not void the warranty.
> 
> I have had the Wizard Pro go out three times on two road rides, mounted horizontally so the majority of the jarring has been laterally, not vertically. As a point of comparison I've used the ZebraLight H600w under the same conditions, and also while mountain biking (more demanding conditions) without issue, so I did not believe my use was too extreme for the Wizard Pro.
> 
> Additionally, I have now also reproduced the light "going out on being jarred" using the AW 2900 mAh protected battery (this is the battery with the three bumps on the negative terminal, to facilitate them being used in serial). For me, three out of three batteries, although it may be argued this is another poor choice of battery for this application because that battery is only about as long as the EagleTac.
> 
> Batteries tested thus far by me personally that exhibit the problem of the light going out:
> EagleTac 3100 (protected) - during normal use
> AW IC 2900 (protected) - hand held intentional tapping
> Panasonic unprotected (generously supplied by Armytek) - during normal use
> 
> 
> Note I'm not throwing stones. Since the issues began, my posts are simply reporting my personal experiences but leaving out personal opinions wherever possible (or at least that is my goal). Hopefully the information comes across that way.


tony613 I totally understand your frustration, I myself am not too happy with this behavior because the last thing I need is to bump this headlamp underground while caving and have it go out. So the only thing I can do is share my solution for the problem. And that is magnets attached to the negative side of the battery, 5 mm worth of magnets seems to do the trick on the unprotected cell. It's a very inexpensive solution, give it a try maybe it will make the light usable for you.


----------



## KarstGhost

*Re: New issue with Wizard Pro, 100% reproducible*

Took my wizard on a six hour cave trip today and it performed flawlessly. This cave had some of the nastiest mud crawls I have ever been through. I used the 250 lumen I think most of the time and notched it up to turbo a couple times. I'm very pleased.


----------



## Knight_Light

*Re: New issue with Wizard Pro, 100% reproducible*



KarstGhost said:


> Took my wizard on a six hour cave trip today and it performed flawlessly. This cave had some of the nastiest mud crawls I have ever been through. I used the the the 250 lumen I think most of the time and notched it up to turbo a couple times. I'm very pleased.


 I have taken this headlamp on a few caving expeditions and it has performed flawlessly. My favorite level is the 250 lm.:thumbsup:


----------



## Trevtrain

*Re: New issue with Wizard Pro, 100% reproducible*



Beacon of Light said:


> Considering we bought a light that should work without problems right from the factory, whose dime will this be on to get these magnetic spacers? Armytek going to send us out free magnetic spacers?



I don't think _you_ will need to spend the few cents on magentic spacers Beacon. You have clearly posted many times that you never need more than 2.7lm for your "high" mode and will only ever use the Firefly settings.
I've tried the tailslapping test numerous times on my Wizard and I cannot get it to cut out in either of the two Firefly modes.
Perhaps you will also be lucky in this respect.


----------



## Trevtrain

*Re: New issue with Wizard Pro, 100% reproducible*



tony613 said:


> Unfortunately, as it stands now I cannot depend on it to work under my "normal circumstances", one of which being used while bicycling (that is, without modification from me in the form of magnets or mods to the spring). Understand I'm not against making modifications, but I want the modification recommendations to come directly from Armytek so that I do not void the warranty.
> 
> I have had the Wizard Pro go out three times on two road rides, mounted horizontally so the majority of the jarring has been laterally, not vertically. As a point of comparison I've used the ZebraLight H600w under the same conditions, and also while mountain biking (more demanding conditions) without issue, so I did not believe my use was too extreme for the Wizard Pro.
> 
> Note I'm not throwing stones. Since the issues began, my posts are simply reporting my personal experiences but leaving out personal opinions wherever possible (or at least that is my goal). Hopefully the information comes across that way.



I think most of us can see you are not just throwing stones tony613. The information you are posting is very useful and reflects a usage scenario where the light clearly is unsuitable in its current state. 
(An argument could possibly be made that the Wizard is sold as a headlamp and not a bike light but I think that would be skating on pretty thin ice.)

Armytek have pretty much said in the CPFMP thread that magnets are the likely answer and that you won't be voiding any warranty by using them. 

I had also planned to use the Wizard as a bike light but I haven't tested it in this role yet. If you haven't returned yours yet (hard to keep track of who has done what so far) would you be prepared to re-test the bike riding with the magnetic spacer and report back as to whether the problem is eliminated in your sample?


----------



## tony613

*Re: New issue with Wizard Pro, 100% reproducible*



Knight_Light said:


> tony613 I totally understand your frustration, I myself am not too happy with this behavior because the last thing I need is to bump this headlamp underground while caving and have it go out. So the only thing I can do is share my solution for the problem. And that is magnets attached to the negative side of the battery, 5 mm worth of magnets seems to do the trick on the unprotected cell. It's a very inexpensive solution, give it a try maybe it will make the light usable for you.



Hey Knight,

Understood and agreed - I've been waiting for Armytek's official response. Because Armytek is _so _responsive and open to suggestion, I wanted to see this through to completion. I know you've been following their official thread in the marketplace and I'm very pleased at how they are responding to this issue (in addition to the other issues and suggestions). Besides planning on offering magnets, at extra cost which is fair in my opinion, they are going to reproduce the light going out issue (using the video) and see how the firmware handles it. 

When the issue occurs, besides being left in the dark, the headlamp has behaved differently in my case. Twice it went into tactical mode, and often it has gone into lockout mode. Much of that will probably be fixed with the new firmware revision but now they've got more test cases with reproducible issues to make the software even more robust. 

Now I am assured their official work around (magnets) will not void the warranty, and the firmware will be wrung out. That was everything I wanted.


----------



## tony613

*Re: New issue with Wizard Pro, 100% reproducible*



Trevtrain said:


> I think most of us can see you are not just throwing stones tony613. The information you are posting is very useful and reflects a usage scenario where the light clearly is unsuitable in its current state.
> (An argument could possibly be made that the Wizard is sold as a headlamp and not a bike light but I think that would be skating on pretty thin ice.)
> 
> Armytek have pretty much said in the CPFMP thread that magnets are the likely answer and that you won't be voiding any warranty by using them.
> 
> I had also planned to use the Wizard as a bike light but I haven't tested it in this role yet. If you haven't returned yours yet (hard to keep track of who has done what so far) would you be prepared to re-test the bike riding with the magnetic spacer and report back as to whether the problem is eliminated in your sample?



Thanks Trevtrain. No, I haven't returned the light yet and yes, if I get the chance to buy magnets I will definitely post results. Note I was replying at the same time you were so our answers overlap a bit.


----------



## tony613

*Re: New issue with Wizard Pro, 100% reproducible*



Trevtrain said:


> ... I've tried the tailslapping test numerous times on my Wizard and I cannot get it to cut out in either of the two Firefly modes...



_Really - _wow. I can get it to happen beginning in Firefly 1. I did it just now, and locked it up good and tight. It took me twice unscrewing the tail cap to get it back on again. Too bad they don't have _my _light on which to test.


----------



## Trevtrain

*Re: New issue with Wizard Pro, 100% reproducible*



tony613 said:


> _Really - _wow. I can get it to happen beginning in Firefly 1. I did it just now, and locked it up good and tight. It took me twice unscrewing the tail cap to get it back on again. Too bad they don't have _my _light on which to test.



Curious...

Could be down to battery then? I am using the unprotected Panasonic supplied by Armytek. And I really have given it some pretty fair thumps to make it cut out - but only with my palm. In any case, much more severe than I would expect from anything but a drop directly onto the tail.

Sounds like bad news for Beacon then - I had hoped he wouldn't have this issue.


----------



## Beacon of Light

*Re: New issue with Wizard Pro, 100% reproducible*

I haven't had the issue but then I haven't tried tapping the light.

Who has these magnets to fit this light? How much do they cost? Would love to find it online if possible. Still think it's bogus to have to buy magnets now and out of the over 100 lights and headlamps I own, I have never needed to use a magnet before. 

Also, now with having to use a magnet it will affect resistance and it will also affect runtime and not in a positive way.


----------



## Knight_Light

*Re: New issue with Wizard Pro, 100% reproducible*



tony613 said:


> Besides planning on offering magnets, at extra cost which is fair in my opinion, they are going to reproduce the light going out issue (using the video) and see how the firmware handles it.


 
I think that for new customers the magnets should be included and not be charged extra. Existing customers can get the magnets on their own. They are like 3 for a dollar so it’s not that big of a deal.


----------



## Beacon of Light

*Re: New issue with Wizard Pro, 100% reproducible*

Where are you finding them 3 for a dollar? This is what I am finding and this is on the low end price wise...

http://www.ebay.com/itm/5-Pcs-Neody...495?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3f26a51c1f


----------



## cronus

*Re: New issue with Wizard Pro, 100% reproducible*

Brad, the shipping did not give a time estimate, but based on posts that came after you asked, it looks like you have better options than I do here in Canada (i.e. tracking for cheap).
The tailslap issue is easy to reproduce, at least to get it to turn off. Drop the light on it's tail onto a mousepad from about 1-2 inches. Turns off every time (unprotected cells). I haven't seen it lockup yet. Disconnect is inevitable with no positive end spring, it happens on my Viking too. The difference on the Viking is that it turns right back on (not an electronic switch).

I was going to send mine back tomorrow, but I think I'll wait until the dust settles a little, plus I will be using the light extensively over the next few weeks. I might even wait for the first 'fixed' ones to be received by owners to see if it really is better.

Update on the 'bad' AR lens coating. Recall I posted how my lens had a poorly coated lens, and cleaning had no effect? Well I noticed that the pattern had changed since I took the picture. This surprised me since I thoroughly cleaned it trying to remove any oils that might be on there. So, I took a piece of soft cotton, pressed it hard against the lens and wiped in a swirling motion. After about five minutes of scrubbing, the lens looks good now. There are three or four hair-lines in the middle where I probably scratched the coating, but it's acceptable now for sure. If they change it or not when I send it, no problem either way.


----------



## Trevtrain

*Re: New issue with Wizard Pro, 100% reproducible*



cronus said:


> Update on the 'bad' AR lens coating. Recall I posted how my lens had a poorly coated lens, and cleaning had no effect? Well I noticed that the pattern had changed since I took the picture. This surprised me since I thoroughly cleaned it trying to remove any oils that might be on there. So, I took a piece of soft cotton, pressed it hard against the lens and wiped in a swirling motion. After about five minutes of scrubbing, the lens looks good now. There are three or four hair-lines in the middle where I probably scratched the coating, but it's acceptable now for sure.



So it now seems that it was actually a surface contamination of some kind rather than a defect in the AR coating?
If this is the case, I wonder if photographic lens cleaning tissue and/or fluid might be a better option for anyone else tempted to try cleaning it this way. Certainly, using a soft cloth and a gentle motion is the next best thing but pressing it "hard" is probably a last resort.

Not that a few minor scratches are all that serious - but anyone with camera equipment may have access to this stuff already.


----------



## tony613

*Re: New issue with Wizard Pro, 100% reproducible*



tony613 said:


> Additionally, I have reproduced the issue with the headlamp turning off using three different batteries:Panasonic unprotected (generously supplied by Armytek) - during normal use road cycling as described
> EagleTac 3100 (protected) - during normal use road cycling as described
> AW IC 2900 (protected) - hand held intentional tapping - both on the bottom (as in the video), and on the side​






ArmyTek said:


> Dear tony613.
> We have fixed this by firmware changing. :twothumbs
> You are welcome.






tony613 said:


> You mean with the new firmware the light no longer cuts out/turns off when being jarred, even with the short Panasonic battery? Does that mean magnets are not needed?






ArmyTek said:


> Yes.






tony613 said:


> Outstanding. Excellent work and excellent customer service.



Thought you all might be interested in seeing this.


----------



## bradthebold

*Re: New issue with Wizard Pro, 100% reproducible*



tony613 said:


> Thought you all might be interested in seeing this.




Agreed with the customer service to a point. I mean they sent the lights out early with all these defects and dealing with their email service is painfully slow, but the cpfm thread is very encouraging. I am surprised by how much they are with with us and taking/adapting our ideas.


----------



## ArcticHighlander

*Re: New issue with Wizard Pro, 100% reproducible*



Knight_Light said:


> Like I said before the Eagletac battery is an awesome battery, however it is a poor choice for this example as it is considerably shorter then most other protected cells. They can shorten the battery tube but then everybody will complain about the longer batteries not been able to fit. I personally would be fine with this decision since I primarily use unprotected cells. The best solution is to leave it the way that it is and incorporate magnetic spacers.



This is a ridiculous argument. It makes me wonder whether free flashlights from Armytek are compromising your impartiality and credibility. Most protected batteries are only 1mm longer than the Eagletac. And Armytek ships this light with a short unprotected battery. According to Armytek it is designed to work with both protected and unprotected batteries. Cutting out with just a slight jar is a manufacturing defect.


----------



## ArcticHighlander

*Re: New issue with Wizard Pro, 100% reproducible*



tony613 said:


> Thought you all might be interested in seeing this.


If they have fixed this problem I'm both impressed and appreciative. Shutting off with just a slight jar is dangerous and completely unacceptable in a head light.


----------



## Knight_Light

*Re: New issue with Wizard Pro, 100% reproducible*



Beacon of Light said:


> Where are you finding them 3 for a dollar? This is what I am finding and this is on the low end price wise...
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/5-Pcs-Neody...495?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3f26a51c1f


 You can find the same deals on eBay but you can also look up the following as an example. 
FASTTECH SKU
1090505 Rare-earth Neodymium NIB Disc Magnets (10-Pack)15mm*1mm $2.32


----------



## Knight_Light

*Re: New issue with Wizard Pro, 100% reproducible*



ArcticHighlander said:


> This is a ridiculous argument. It makes me wonder whether free flashlights from Armytek are compromising your impartiality and credibility. Most protected batteries are only 1mm longer than the Eagletac. And Armytek ships this light with a short unprotected battery. According to Armytek it is designed to work with both protected and unprotected batteries. Cutting out with just a slight jar is a manufacturing defect.


 
You are certainly entitled to your opinion but the fact is I have criticized this light on the forum as well as in private emails to Armytek including sending the light back for warranty work due to the lockout problem as well as a proposed UI change (which seems to be what they will be going with). Now if you think a free headlamp (it’s not a flashlight by the way) is compromising my credibility and making me partial to Armytek you can just choose to avoid reading my comments, but to make those statements in a public forum is just a cheap shot especially if you consider the amount of work I’ve put into this forum to help people like you. 

Your statement “Cutting out with just a slight jar” is an over exaggeration, as it needs a thump in the right place for it to happen (and yes it does happen repeatedly).


----------



## Bullzeyebill

*Re: New issue with Wizard Pro, 100% reproducible*

ArcticHighlander, criticize the post, not the poster. Don't want to see any Rule 4 violations in this thread.

Bill


----------



## Knight_Light

*Re: New issue with Wizard Pro, 100% reproducible*

Received a correspondence from Armytek and thought I would share some of the news. They informed me that next week my production sample would be ready to ship. When asked about the lockout problem and the new UI (that is described in the marketplace here http://www.cpfmarketplace.com/mp/sh...mytek-wizard&p=4769593&viewfull=1#post4769593) they responded with "Yes. Many changes.". If this is accurate then I don't think you have much longer to wait for some of the known issues to be resolved.


----------



## cronus

*Re: New issue with Wizard Pro, 100% reproducible*



Trevtrain said:


> So it now seems that it was actually a surface contamination of some kind rather than a defect in the AR coating?
> If this is the case, I wonder if photographic lens cleaning tissue and/or fluid might be a better option for anyone else tempted to try cleaning it this way. Certainly, using a soft cloth and a gentle motion is the next best thing but pressing it "hard" is probably a last resort.
> 
> Not that a few minor scratches are all that serious - but anyone with camera equipment may have access to this stuff already.


It does seem to have been a surface contamination. The 'scratches' appear to be not scratches in the glass, but some kind of thin mark in the coating. It is very hard to see them at all. At this point, I would be fine with them reprogramming my light and sending it back if they choose to. Of course, if the policy is to replace, that's fine too. I already have a few character marks, mostly from removing/installing the clip on a daily basis.

I'm looking forward to finding out what changes they made to the UI, hopefully all improvements.


----------



## syracuse

*Re: New issue with Wizard Pro, 100% reproducible*

They also informed me that my replace wizard pro will be ship soon.


----------



## Knight_Light

*Re: New issue with Wizard Pro, 100% reproducible*



cronus said:


> I'm looking forward to finding out what changes they made to the UI, hopefully all improvements.


 The UI changes can be seen here http://www.cpfmarketplace.com/mp/sh...mytek-wizard&p=4769593&viewfull=1#post4769593.


----------



## Knight_Light

*Re: New issue with Wizard Pro, 100% reproducible*

There has been a lot of talk on the forums about OTF lumens and LED lumens as well as the ANSI standard. All of which to me is a bunch of nonsense and is very gimmicky. I would like to propose a challenge to Armytek to set a higher level in the industry by providing lux readings at 1 m and 25 m (on larger lights 100 m). This would tell consumers how usable a particular light is for whatever task they have in mind.

I know a lot of manufacturers will hesitate to post that kind of information because it gives consumers the ability to directly compare products. But since Armytek is one of the leaders what does it really have to lose? So what do you say Armytek are you up to the challenge? 

Anyone that supports this standard I ask that you chime in. The more people that demand this from the manufacturer’s the greater the likelihood of it actually happening. If you support this you can voice your opinion in the CPF marketplace under the following link. http://www.cpfmarketplace.com/mp/sh...mytek-wizard&p=4770766&viewfull=1#post4770766


----------



## bluemax_1

*Re: New issue with Wizard Pro, 100% reproducible*



Knight_Light said:


> There has been a lot of talk on the forums about OTF lumens and LED lumens as well as the ANSI standard. All of which to me is a bunch of nonsense and is very gimmicky. I would like to propose a challenge to Armytek to set a higher level in the industry by providing lux readings at 1 m and 25 m (on larger lights 100 m). This would tell consumers how usable a particular light is for whatever task they have in mind.
> 
> I know a lot of manufacturers will hesitate to post that kind of information because it gives consumers the ability to directly compare products. But since Armytek is one of the leaders what does it really have to lose? So what do you say Armytek are you up to the challenge?
> 
> Anyone that supports this standard I ask that you chime in. The more people that demand this from the manufacturer’s the greater the likelihood of it actually happening. If you support this you can voice your opinion in the CPF marketplace under the following link. http://www.cpfmarketplace.com/mp/sh...mytek-wizard&p=4770766&viewfull=1#post4770766


My comments on this have been posted in that thread.


Max


----------



## Trevtrain

*Re: New issue with Wizard Pro, 100% reproducible*



bluemax_1 said:


> My comments on this have been posted in that thread.
> 
> 
> Max



mine also


----------



## Knight_Light

*Re: New issue with Wizard Pro, 100% reproducible*

My responses in the thread.


----------



## dpc

Just received my wizard pro XM-L2 and it sure has a stiff switch.
I'm looking at gym membership now so I can build up my thumb muscles. In a few months I'll be strong enough to turn it on and give an opinion. ;-)


----------



## jonathanluu2

dpc said:


> Just received my wizard pro XM-L2 and it sure has a stiff switch.
> I'm looking at gym membership now so I can build up my thumb muscles. In a few months I'll be strong enough to turn it on and give an opinion. ;-)



I ended up flipping my light "upside-down" so the switch was on the bottom of the light and on the left side of my head. I find it easier to depress the button with it under my thumb instead of my index finger. May not work for everybody, as the button is a bit more crowded next to one's forehead, but it works for me.

J.


----------



## beamon

When is the "warm" beam version of this thing coming out?
I just can't wait to turn it on to turbo, let it heat up to scorching and then plop its waterproofed *** into a mug of water accompanied by a tea bag and watch it steep!


----------



## dpc

Yep. It sure gets warm. We're tossing out our electric blankets and just putting it under the covers ( on high) a few minutes before getting into bed. It takes the chill off nicely!
It is bright and solidly built. I guess time will tell if its more durable than the Zebralights, and therefore worth the extra weight, size, and the extra stiff switch.

I don't regret the purchase, but will get the H600w Mk II when it comes out. I prefer the Zebralight switch.


----------



## toysareforboys

beamon said:


> When is the "warm" beam version of this thing coming out?
> I just can't wait to turn it on to turbo, let it heat up to scorching and then plop its waterproofed *** into a mug of water accompanied by a tea bag and watch it steep!


Let us know if the hot lens survives being dunked in a cold liquid.

-Jamie M.


----------



## Dhobi

Yesterday night I did a mountain bike ride here in Czech rep., about 25 km long. I had no other light with me then Wizard Pro (standard, not wide), so most of the time I used it on turbo, just during slow ascending I switched to 500 or 250 lm mode. The beam was great for trail riding, it did not limit my peripheral vision so I did not feel like riding in tunnel. Only while riding downhill I would like to have another throw light on bike bars - next time I take some with me. My Wizard Pro still have the old firmware but no stepdown due to thermal regulation occurred, it was about 15 C (59 F). I needed to change battery (Panasonic 3100) once. I had no problem to use the stiff switch and even to turn the light in the holder with one hand when I firmly secured the light to my helmet. The only drawback I have mentioned is the weight of the light. But it was not really uncomfortable and one can get used to it. Overall, I am very happy with this light...


----------



## petr9999

prague? we should go together sometimes


----------



## psychbeat

Thanks for the ride report dhobi. 

The floppy zebra & spark holders are really a pain when strapped onto a full face helmet and doing technical downhill trails. 

The stiffer army one sounds like an improvement. 

My dedicated helmet light is hard mounted now but one of these would be a good loaner or backup.


----------



## Dhobi

petr9999 said:


> prague? we should go together sometimes



Brno. We can meet halfway


----------



## psychbeat

Received an email from Armytek that the warm/neutrals are available


----------



## Dhobi

psychbeat said:


> The floppy zebra & spark holders are really a pain when strapped onto a full face helmet and doing technical downhill trails.



Well I am thinking about this set up: to mount Wizard on bars to broadly illuminate trail just in front of the bike + standard (not floody) ZL H600 mk II mounted onto helmet for distance vision. Is ZL holder really so loose that the light turns down while riding?


----------



## tony613

psychbeat said:


> Received an email from Armytek that the warm/neutrals are available



psychbeat, you may already be fully aware and already following this but for others, this official Armytek thread: 

http://www.cpfmarketplace.com/mp/showthread.php?288932-Armytek-wizard&p=4774309#post4774309

states that "the warm version of Wizard Pro with the new UI will be later."


----------



## photonmaster

My Wizard Pro had issues with turning off when tapped and the overheating warning light would not turn orange or red, it would just drop output first.

Have sent it back to get a replacement. So far Armytek have been excellent to deal with.

Emails replied to within a few hours (hear that Surefire!)
New light sent to me before they receive mine
Postage costs covered

Great participation too on this forum means to my mind Armytek deserve a thumbs up so far.

STURDY, well made products too, keep them coming!


----------



## beamon

tony613 said:


> psychbeat, you may already be fully aware and already following this but for others, this official Armytek thread:
> 
> http://www.cpfmarketplace.com/mp/showthread.php?288932-Armytek-wizard&p=4774309#post4774309
> 
> states that "the warm version of Wizard Pro with the new UI will be later."



I find this very disturbing. Why is Armytek proceeding to introduce its "warm" beam version without fixing the UI first?


----------



## RedForest UK

It seems they have a 'bug fixed' v1 UI that they are applying at the moment, and the new v1.5 UI is to follow soon. The main differences should be the ability to access turbo or strobe modes with triple/quad clicks directly from off, moving the 30 lumen mode to group 1 and allowing toggling between groups 1 and 2 with double clicks instead of always going into the group above.

I'm not sure why they didn't go straight to the v1.5, maybe they didn't want to confuse people who have returned their lights just to get the bugs fixed.


----------



## Beacon of Light

So if we send our lights in to get fixed are they sending v1 or v1.5 back to us?


----------



## tony613

When the issues were finally identified and resolved I asked Sandra from customer service if it was alright that I wait to return my light for the warm version, with the new interface. She said I could, but it would be a while. I take that to mean if you were to return your light now for immediate replacement, you would get version 1. Of course, asking them would get you the definitive answer. 

In either case, I'm taking them up on their offer and hanging on to my light until the warm led with new interface is available.


----------



## bluemax_1

beamon said:


> I find this very disturbing. Why is Armytek proceeding to introduce its "warm" beam version without fixing the UI first?



Money, what else?


----------



## Bullzeyebill

bluemax_1 said:


> Money, what else?



Sort a baiting trolling post, only based on a subjective assumption, with no real facts presented. Let's not have members biting on that post, which would derail this thread.

Bill


----------



## photonmaster

Beacon of Light said:


> So if we send our lights in to get fixed are they sending v1 or v1.5 back to us?



Yes I also asked for the newest UI and was told no problem it will just take a little longer which I am okay with. 



bluemax_1 said:


> Money, what else?



Probably. That said they seem committed to good customer service to me in ways where it will cost them money short term.


----------



## bluemax_1

Bullzeyebill said:


> Sort a baiting trolling post, only based on a subjective assumption, with no real facts presented. Let's not have members biting on that post, which would derail this thread.
> 
> Bill


Yes, it IS a subjective assumption, but if a manufacturer decides that some changes need to be made to the original release of a product, then, due to customers inquiring about a Neutral/Warm version, decide to release a Warm/Neutral version without the changes/fixes they've decided are a good idea for the light, as I asked in the post you quoted, is there another way to see it? If so, please share it with me (and that isn't sarcasm, it's an honest desire to see if there's another logical and reasonable viewpoint, besides the cynic in me)


Max


----------



## RedForest UK

bluemax_1 said:


> if a manufacturer decides that some changes need to be made to the original release of a product



That's the key point, certain changes needed to be made in order for it to function fully as originally designed. These have apparently been fixed in the bug free v1 versions that are shipping and are the default for updating those sent in for repair. Armytek also determined where certain other non-essential improvements could be made to the UI itself, and will be implementing them in the v1.5.

That is how I understand it anyway.


----------



## Trevtrain

Sounds reasonable RedForest_UK

Are you waiting for V1.5 before sending your Wizard Pro back? That is currently my plan.


----------



## Beacon of Light

that's my plan as well. I don't get why they would even fix the firmware with V1.00 and send the light back from China to the US or wherever, and then a few weeks later v1.5 comes out and people have to send the light back AGAIN to get updated. 

Would have been good for this to have been planned out better from the get go so the customer isn't stuck footing the bill to schlep a headlamp across the globe to get the necessary changes, not once, but TWICE! I'd go so far to say that this is idiotic for them to do it this way. Glad I didn't send my light back yet as I would be pissed if they had the light for several months or however long it will be before v1.5 is released when we were all under the impression the new firmware was going to be the version with the new UI. Any bets on when this will occur?



Trevtrain said:


> Sounds reasonable RedForest_UK
> 
> Are you waiting for V1.5 before sending your Wizard Pro back? That is currently my plan.


----------



## RedForest UK

Trevtrain said:


> Sounds reasonable RedForest_UK
> 
> Are you waiting for V1.5 before sending your Wizard Pro back? That is currently my plan.



I've sent mine back already, but have asked them to wait on returning it until the new UI is available. They suggested that the original returned lights may not be sent back but replacements instead, in which case I'll probably wait for the warm version with the new UI.

Tbh I also don't really understand why they aren't implementing the new UI immediately, the two good reasons I could think of are:

1. So people returning v1 lights won't be confused by lights returning with a different UI.
2. In order to fully test the new UI for bugs, having had the experience they did with the v1.

Both of those seem like good reasons to me. But I would have liked them to be clearer about their plans, so as to give everyone who wants to the option to wait for the new UI.


----------



## Beacon of Light

RedForest UK said:


> I've sent mine back already, but have asked them to wait on returning it until the new UI is available. *They suggested that the original returned lights may not be sent back but replacements instead*, in which case I'll probably wait for the warm version with the new UI.
> 
> Tbh I also don't really understand why they aren't implementing the new UI immediately, the two good reasons I could think of are:
> 
> 1. So people returning v1 lights won't be confused by lights returning with a different UI.
> 2. In order to fully test the new UI for bugs, having had the experience they did with the v1.
> 
> Both of those seem like good reasons to me. But I would have liked them to be clearer about their plans, so as to give everyone who wants to the option to wait for the new UI.



What does that mean original lights may not be returned, replacements instead?


----------



## RedForest UK

Yes, I meant that they suggested that a replacement Wizard Pro will be sent out in place of the ones returned, rather than the original ones with updated firmware.

If I'm getting a replacement anyway then I might as well try out the warm version I think.


----------



## Knight_Light

Beacon of Light said:


> Any bets on when this will occur?


 I was told I should be getting the test sample sent out within 2 weeks and that was on Monday.


----------



## Beacon of Light

ok, that's not too bad then. I wonder how it will work out in my situation then as I have the Wide XML-2 U3 and I don't know if they still offer this.


----------



## RedForest UK

I don't know what they'll do in that case tbh. 

On another note Armytek have just let me know that the warm versions will use a 5A tint. So there shouldn't be any sign of green.


----------



## wardroid

I just got this light and here's my impression. 

1000+ lumens? NAWT.. When I got my zebralight h31 (220lm) I was totally blown away of how bright it was. I've made a comparison and while Armytek is much more diffused (which I prefer), the brightness seems about the same. It was also less bright than my spark sl6s 800cw (800lm).

Even though it was a lot less bright than I anticipated, it's got more light than what I need. I won't be using the turbo mode much for my general camping use. 
UI is overly complex. you have to manually choose the battery type (protect or not). also 2 cycling modes, and one of the 2 will not cycle through the firefly nor the turbo mode.

Pros

- I was blown away of how incredibly even the diffused light is. no hard edges or spots what so ever
- the color type I bought is white, which is significantly whiter than my handful of other lights. I prefer this color over my spark, fenix, zebralight etc..
- very bright, especially for general camping use.
- solid build quality. matte finish feels awesome in your hands. 
- green blink light can be a huge plus, since I can never find my light when camping

cons
- complex UI
- very bright, but not 1k+ lm bright


----------



## ArcticHighlander

wardroid said:


> I just got this light and here's my impression.
> 
> 1000+ lumens? NAWT.. When I got my zebralight h31 (220lm) I was totally blown away of how bright it was. I've made a comparison and while Armytek is much more diffused (which I prefer), the brightness seems about the same. It was also less bright than my spark sl6s 800cw (800lm).
> 
> Even though it was a lot less bright than I anticipated, it's got more light than what I need. I won't be using the turbo mode much for my general camping use.
> UI is overly complex. you have to manually choose the battery type (protect or not). also 2 cycling modes, and one of the 2 will not cycle through the firefly nor the turbo mode.
> 
> Pros
> 
> - I was blown away of how incredibly even the diffused light is. no hard edges or spots what so ever
> - the color type I bought is white, which is significantly whiter than my handful of other lights. I prefer this color over my spark, fenix, zebralight etc..
> - very bright, especially for general camping use.
> - solid build quality. matte finish feels awesome in your hands.
> - green blink light can be a huge plus, since I can never find my light when camping
> 
> cons
> - complex UI
> - very bright, but not 1k+ lm bright


Armytek uses LED lumens in its stats whereas Zebralight uses actual OTF lumens, so Armytek's values are significantly inflated over those listed by Zebralight. I agree the version 1.0 UI is clunky; the newer Wizard Pro version 1.5 which will replace this one soon has a much better UI. I too really like the warmer white light of the regular Wizard Pro over the regular H600 Zebralight (5500K vs 6300). Like you I also like the diffused light it offers which is floodier and more aesthetically pleasing than the regular spot/spill of the H600 Zebralight (because of this however it doesn't have anywhere as much throw). Zebralight is supposed to release 3 warm 4400K versions (spot+spill, floody & Flood) of their H600 headlamps this month with a range from .01 to 1020 OTF lumens and PID. Competition is a good thing. :huh:


----------



## bradthebold

wardroid said:


> I just got this light and here's my impression.
> 
> 1000+ lumens? NAWT.. When I got my zebralight h31 (220lm) I was totally blown away of how bright it was. I've made a comparison and while Armytek is much more diffused (which I prefer), the brightness seems about the same. It was also less bright than my spark sl6s 800cw (800lm).
> 
> Even though it was a lot less bright than I anticipated, it's got more light than what I need. I won't be using the turbo mode much for my general camping use.
> UI is overly complex. you have to manually choose the battery type (protect or not). also 2 cycling modes, and one of the 2 will not cycle through the firefly nor the turbo mode.
> 
> Pros
> 
> - I was blown away of how incredibly even the diffused light is. no hard edges or spots what so ever
> - the color type I bought is white, which is significantly whiter than my handful of other lights. I prefer this color over my spark, fenix, zebralight etc..
> - very bright, especially for general camping use.
> - solid build quality. matte finish feels awesome in your hands.
> - green blink light can be a huge plus, since I can never find my light when camping
> 
> cons
> - complex UI
> - very bright, but not 1k+ lm bright



The H31 is a spot and spill, so the light is more concentrated. The Armytek is really floody, so it would take a lot more output to light up an entire area as bright as the H31 could light up its smaller area. I wouldn't be surprised if a 200lm spot light would be brighter in its area than an 880W floody light. I would be surprised if it wasn't. Someone measured the light in this thread and turbo was about 800-880lm I think, OTF.


----------



## leaftye

wardroid said:


> Pros
> 
> - I was blown away of how incredibly even the diffused light is. no hard edges or spots what so ever



I saw this as a pro and a con. An even light pattern should allow lower light levels to be used without loss of visibility at closer distances, but the lack of a hotspot means reduced throw. I rarely need a lot of throw. Hopefully this light provides enough for my uses...which I won't really be able to confirm until the next time I'm backpacking and need to chase off a bear at night again. If it doesn't, then I'll reluctantly swap it for a H600v2. I'm just glad that I'll finally have mine on Wednesday. v1.5.


----------



## Beacon of Light

Can't wait to hear your review on Wednesday and then and only then will i send my lights back IF yours works without flaws this time.


----------



## Testpostaccess

There seems to be a lot of uncertainty with the performance/reliability of these lights. Have any of the early issues been fixed?


----------



## Beacon of Light

no idea. I'm surprised the original repaired v1.0 lights haven't made it back to the original buyers yet from China.


----------



## MattSPL

Just ordered a Wizard pro wide


----------



## Beacon of Light

any update on receiving your v.1.5 light?



leaftye said:


> I saw this as a pro and a con. An even light pattern should allow lower light levels to be used without loss of visibility at closer distances, but the lack of a hotspot means reduced throw. I rarely need a lot of throw. Hopefully this light provides enough for my uses...which I won't really be able to confirm until the next time I'm backpacking and need to chase off a bear at night again. If it doesn't, then I'll reluctantly swap it for a H600v2. I'm just glad that I'll finally have mine on Wednesday. v1.5.


----------



## MattSPL

My Wizard Pro wide arrived from IS 

Really happy with this light. Nice mode spacing and the build quality and finish of this light are very good. 

The wide beam is perfect for indoor use, lighting up an entire room with an even spread of light.

I will post some pics later.


----------



## Beacon of Light

What happened to all the people that sent back their lights to China weeks to over a month ago? Haven't heard a peep on those that should have received the fixed firmware of v1.0 weeks ago, and even *leaftye* should have received their v1.5 version last week already. Come on guys, how about some updates???


----------



## ArcticHighlander

I'm waiting for them to come out with v1.5 in warm which I asked them to wait and substitute for the one I sent back.


----------



## MattSPL

A few pics of my Wizard pro wide


----------



## Changchung

I am waiting for the 1.5v in neutral to order mine


----------



## spankone

Changchung said:


> I am waiting for the 1.5v in neutral to order mine



I'm waiting for them to come in stock. Looking at this as a replacement for spark sd6 and st6. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk - now Free


----------



## Changchung

spankone said:


> I'm waiting for them to come in stock. Looking at this as a replacement for spark sd6 and st6.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk - now Free



I want it as a replacement of my H600w, I like more flood, I will keep my SD5...


Sent from my phone with camera with flash and internet on it...


----------



## ArcticHighlander

Changchung said:


> I want it as a replacement of my H600w, I like more flood, I will keep my SD5...
> 
> 
> Sent from my phone with camera with flash and internet on it...


Have you looked at the new floodier ZL versions? H600Fw MKII and H602? They have a range of .01 to 1020 OTF/Ansi lumens with lots choices of settings and they have an incremental 96 step down PID.


----------



## MattSPL

An update on the Wizard Pro posted by Armytek over on cpfm.
So the current 'new' version like my Wizard pro are still v1, but with bug fixes and a couple of updates.

"The Wizard headlamps you order are only the first version at this time. All bugs are fixed and some changes are made in the temperature indication:

when it increases to +60°C, the color LED shows the warning level once a second. 
After +70°C the main LED flashes 5 times. After +75°C the light output decreases to Main4 mode (550lm). 
Critical level >+80°C is color indicated twice a second and light output decreases to Firefly2 mode.

The new UI will be in version 1.5 which is being prepared for production.
As I mentioned before you will be the first to know about this!"


----------



## MattSPL

A couple of beamshots in an attic today. 
As you can see, the Wizard pro is perfect for attics. I don’t know how i lived without one now





Solarforce L2M with XP-G S2 cool white @ 1.58A on high.




Armytek Wizard pro wide on High(550lm setting).




​
Top


​​​​


----------



## Changchung

ArcticHighlander said:


> Have you looked at the new floodier ZL versions? H600Fw MKII and H602? They have a range of .01 to 1020 OTF/Ansi lumens with lots choices of settings and they have an incremental 96 step down PID.



I dont know about that new zebra... Checking... Thanks


Sent from my phone with camera with flash and internet on it...


----------



## Phry

Armytek have told me via email that the end of October is the eta for the revised v1.5 lights.


----------



## canibalplatipus

Sweet I have been waiting for the new ui before I send mine back

Sent from my SGH-I747M using Tapatalk 2


----------



## Beacon of Light

same here



canibalplatipus said:


> Sweet I have been waiting for the new ui before I send mine back
> 
> Sent from my SGH-I747M using Tapatalk 2


----------



## luck

Great post OP! Been looking for a new headlight and this fits the bill exactly.:thumbsup:


----------



## ThirstyTurtle

I just got the ZL602W but I'm debating whether to return it and purchase one of these. The PRIMARY thing I'm interested in is the beam pattern. On the wide model I believe the spill is listed at 120 degrees which is the same as the mule-like ZL H602 except that the Wizard also has a hotspot, so to me it would be the best of both worlds if true.

Can someone who owns the Wizard Pro Wide PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE post a photo of the profile of the beam? That is to say, lay it down on a table and take a photo so I can see how wide the spill really is? Bonus points if you lay it on a sheet of paper with angle lines on it :0)

PS_I've noticed the "wide" and normal versions both list the spill at 120 degrees so a photo of either model would suffice :0)


----------



## conrincon

ThirstyTurtle said:


> I just got the ZL602W but I'm debating whether to return it and purchase one of these. The PRIMARY thing I'm interested in is the beam pattern. On the wide model I believe the spill is listed at 120 degrees which is the same as the mule-like ZL H602 except that the Wizard also has a hotspot, so to me it would be the best of both worlds if true.
> 
> Can someone who owns the Wizard Pro Wide PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE post a photo of the profile of the beam? That is to say, lay it down on a table and take a photo so I can see how wide the spill really is? Bonus points if you lay it on a sheet of paper with angle lines on it :0)
> 
> PS_I've noticed the "wide" and normal versions both list the spill at 120 degrees so a photo of either model would suffice :0)




PLEASE send such a picture also for NON-WIDE version. Please do make sure that lens is 50mm equivalent; otherwise it is not possible to get a real perception.


----------



## conrincon

conrincon said:


> PLEASE send such a picture also for NON-WIDE version. Please do make sure that lens is 50mm equivalent; otherwise it is not possible to get a real perception.



Please help me understand the characteristics of Wizard Pro Cold and Warm versions.

I understand both share the same TIR optics.

I understand the cold version uses a U2 Cree led while the warm version uses a T6 led. T6 is much smaller than U2.

Therefore, if logics work, the beam out of the U2 version should be more floody, and the warm version should be more focused and spot. note that technical characteristics do not differ in this aspect.

Is it correct?

thank you for your support in this decision making process.
conrincon


----------



## ThirstyTurtle

conrincon said:


> Please help me understand the characteristics of Wizard Pro Cold and Warm versions.
> 
> I understand both share the same TIR optics.
> 
> I understand the cold version uses a U2 Cree led while the warm version uses a T6 led. T6 is much smaller than U2.
> 
> Therefore, if logics work, the beam out of the U2 version should be more floody, and the warm version should be more focused and spot. note that technical characteristics do not differ in this aspect.
> 
> Is it correct?
> 
> thank you for your support in this decision making process.
> conrincon



The T6 and U2 are different bins of the same emitter (XM-L) so they are identical in dimensions. I believe the optic is slightly different which effects the beam pattern. The cool and warm doesn't AT ALL effect the beam pattern. Only the "normal" or "wide" model effects that.


----------



## Beacon of Light

Got an email from Sandra @ Armytek and she has no ETA for the v.1.5 of the Wizard Pro. Said due to the Armytek Cialus or Smart they had no time for revision and no idea WHEN it will be. Good thing I didn't send mine back yet.


----------



## ThirstyTurtle

Profile beam photo? Easy to do, any surface will suffice


----------



## MugzillainManilla

Received my Wizard Pro December 9 and already having problems with the UI malfunctioning starting yesterday December 14 and earlier. Have you done any long term testing?? Thanks

It is not necessary to copy the OP in its entirety to add one line of text. - Norm


----------



## RI Chevy

Email Armytek and see what they say. I am sure they will help you out.


----------



## Beacon of Light

RI Chevy said:


> Email Armytek and see what they say. I am sure they will help you out.



Just so long as you're not like the majority that wants the v.1.5 version. So far their silence is deafening.


----------



## darwin

This thread has been quite informative, thank you all. I have been researching 90 degree lamps for a little while. This one looks like it would fit the bill- It's durable, good features, seems to be well built. However, a few things are preventing me from ordering now(also because of this thread and the cpfmarketplace threads):

- Almost unanimously, you are all greatly anticipating the 1.5 version. While it doesn't seem that there's even a features/upgrades/changes list for that mythical item, you all seem to have enough issues with the current version that need fixing/updating. It seems like a good idea to wait for this vaporware.
- I can't even find a good list of what you all want changed in a new version, just seems like you all want a general overhaul of the UI.
- Canadian company! YAY! North American brand. Oh wait, all service and support is done from China? While I prefer a US/Canada/etc. built light, I know there are a lot of good products being made in China these days. However, I dislike the idea of having to ship something half way around the world and through customs every time it needs service. 
- See above and add: People seem to be waiting for weeks or months for their lights to be serviced and returned.

Anyway, I'm going to keep looking around for now. Back to looking at Zebralights. Their lack of durability and hit-or-miss waterproofness combined with a short warranty were a turnoff though.


----------



## RedForest UK

Actually they gave quite a detailed description of a new 'v1.5' UI that they were preparing for production around 3 months ago in the CPFmarketplace thread.



ArmyTek said:


> We made some UI changes. If it's OK, then we can add that to the revised firmware after testing phase.
> There are realized 4 sections of modes and multiple clicks for an access to them.
> 
> *Section 1:*
> Mode 1 = .5 lm
> Mode 2 = 7 lm
> Mode 3 = 30 lm
> 
> *Section 2:*
> Mode 4 = 115 lm
> Mode 5 = 250 lm
> Mode 6 = 550 lm
> 
> *Section 3:*
> Mode 7 = 1010 lm
> 
> *Section 4:*
> Battery Voltage Indicator
> Fast Strobe
> Beacon
> 
> 
> *When the flashlight is turned OFF:*
> 
> Click: Will put into the last memorized mode (from Section 1 or Section 2).
> 
> Press and Hold: Will put into Mode 1 of Section 1.
> 
> Double-click: Will put into Section 2.
> Then will switch between the last memorized mode in Section 1 and the last memorized mode in Section 2.
> 
> Triple click: Will put into Section 3.
> 
> Quad click: Will put into Section 4.
> 
> 
> *When the flashlight is turned ON:*
> 
> Click: Switch off.
> 
> Press and Hold: Will cycle the modes of actual Section.
> 
> Double-click:
> Will put into Section 2 from ANY section.
> Then will switch between the last memorized mode in Section 1 and the last memorized mode in Section 2.
> 
> Triple click:
> Will put into Section 3 from ANY section.
> 
> Quad click:
> Will put into Section 4 from ANY section.
> 
> 
> *The battery type changing:*
> 
> 10 clicks from OFF-state. The headlamp will flash about 3 times a second.
> Now you can specify the battery type:
> - 1 click for unprotected 18650 Li-Ion battery (without PCB) or LiFePO4, default value.
> - 2 clicks for protected 18650 Li-Ion battery (with PCB).




Unfortunately there seems to have since been no progress in actually getting this UI into production. I sent my first run Wizard Pro back a week or so before this announcement and then asked for them to hold out for the new UI before shipping me out a replacement. I'm still waiting..


----------



## LEDburn

darwin said:


> Anyway, I'm going to keep looking around for now. Back to looking at Zebralights. Their lack of durability and hit-or-miss waterproofness combined with a short warranty were a turnoff though.



I have 9 Zebralights now and not one of them leak or have failed due to lack of durability. Every single ZL flashlight of mine have been dropped and taken hard hits on concrete, rocks and various other surfaces at least once and still continue to work perfectly fine. The headlamps have never been dropped so I can't comment on their durability in that regard.

I had an SC80w play up and develop a large standby current draw but after a few emails back and forth it was sent away for a free repair. This symptom was noted by a few other users on here.

If you don't like having to send stuff back to where it was made then buy something local. If you're American, you have plenty of options. Being in Australia, I have to pretty much accept that no matter what I buy, if it fails, warranty jobs are almost all international affairs.


----------



## darwin

Awesome, thanks for the info, both of you. I'm still looking but may get one for the new year. Leaning towards a zebra, but hopefully by the time I actually need one, there may be some new updates.


----------



## Tulip bush

Hi all, I haven't followed the thread for a long time, but I was excited when I first heard about the wizard, I had just bought a zebra h600w before the release of the wizard. My h600w is currently been repaired due to not switching off after been used in high mode for a minute or two and it's really hardly had any use.... As luck would have it it's still under its short guarantee.

I am still very very tempted with a neutral wizard, but I'm slightly hesitant after reading there have been some problems. Now unfortunately I haven't at the moment got the time to go through all the thread and would really appreciate if some body could just bullet point the faults that have been surfacing with the wizard....... I will when I get the chance go through the thread.

If possible could you also tell me through experience how long it would handle been on the 500 ish lumen setting before it needs to step down due to heat etc.

I read they may be a 1.5 version, but no release date as such. Just wondering if I should hold fire.

Thank you wuyang


----------



## MattSPL

Tulip bush said:


> Hi all, I haven't followed the thread for a long time, but I was excited when I first heard about the wizard, I had just bought a zebra h600w before the release of the wizard. My h600w is currently been repaired due to not switching off after been used in high mode for a minute or two and it's really hardly had any use.... As luck would have it it's still under its short guarantee.
> 
> I am still very very tempted with a neutral wizard, but I'm slightly hesitant after reading there have been some problems. Now unfortunately I haven't at the moment got the time to go through all the thread and would really appreciate if some body could just bullet point the faults that have been surfacing with the wizard....... I will when I get the chance go through the thread.
> 
> If possible could you also tell me through experience how long it would handle been on the 500 ish lumen setting before it needs to step down due to heat etc.
> 
> I read they may be a 1.5 version, but no release date as such. Just wondering if I should hold fire.
> 
> Thank you wuyang



The problems were with the first production run. 
These were rectified with software 'fix' a short time later. I bought one with the software fix and I'm very happy with it. As far as I know there have been NO reports of issues since the fix.

With the software fix, they also upped the temperature at which stepdown happens(and lumens of stepdown) and a few other things I can't remember. I've run mine on the 500 Lumens mode for about an hour with no stepdown. It gets quite warm, but not hot, although if the ambient temperature was 20 or 30deg C, the light would get warmer.


----------



## Tulip bush

Cheers MattSPL. Really tempted to get one, nice to know the problems are sorted. I've only found one dealer in the uk that sells them and the prices are rocket high......will have to check if his stock have had the software fix....if not I'm tempted to import...think armytek ship from china so I might hopefully avoid duty etc.....I've never imported before.


----------



## MattSPL

Pm sent. 
I import most things these days as I just can't get what I want here in Ireland. I guess the population of 4 million doesn't give much market for niche products like flashlights and decent hifi equipment that i'm into.

Cheers
Matt


----------



## Trevtrain

Tulip bush said:


> Cheers MattSPL. Really tempted to get one, nice to know the problems are sorted. I've only found one dealer in the uk that sells them and the prices are rocket high......will have to check if his stock have had the software fix....if not I'm tempted to import...think armytek ship from china so I might hopefully avoid duty etc.....I've never imported before.



You probably should also subscribe to the CPF Marketplace thread (separate registration required if you haven't already joined). There is quite a bit of talk about version releases but no concrete information from Armytek at this time.

http://www.cpfmarketplace.com/mp/showthread.php?288932-Armytek-wizard/page14


----------



## LEDburn

Tulip bush said:


> Cheers MattSPL. Really tempted to get one, nice to know the problems are sorted. I've only found one dealer in the uk that sells them and the prices are rocket high......will have to check if his stock have had the software fix....if not I'm tempted to import...think armytek ship from china so I might hopefully avoid duty etc.....I've never imported before.



Problems fixed, really!? 
What about the guys who are still waiting to get their lights back from Armytek after sending a faulty light back or simply getting the firmware updated and what about the lack of information as to what was actually changed?

I have a Predator Pro and love it so don't get me wrong I do support the company, I really wish they had waited to release the Wizard as I have read too many negative things which have turned me off it. 
Releasing a flawed light in an attempt to rival an industry leader is just foolish and as luck would have it, more people have probably been turned off the brand as a whole thanks to their lack of testing and quality control.

Buy a Zebralight if you simply want THE best headlamp available..


----------



## Beacon of Light

LEDburn said:


> Buy a Zebralight if you simply want THE best headlamp available..



I couldn't have said it better myself! As frustrated as I am about having to wait for ZL to release the cool white versions of the H600F and H52F as well as the all new H302/H32/H32F, at least they aren't rushing them to market before sufficient testing and hell, even in the 11th hour, Zebralight made a last minute change in the high mode of the H600 Mark II to satisfy the public backlash of there not being a 100ish lumen level. That is the sign of a company that is doing it right. Armytek could and should learn from them!


----------



## RI Chevy

I think Spark makes a better more complete headlamp in a more compact package.


----------



## MattSPL

LEDburn said:


> Problems fixed, really!?
> What about the guys who are still waiting to get their lights back from Armytek after sending a faulty light back or simply getting the firmware updated and what about the lack of information as to what was actually changed?
> 
> I have a Predator Pro and love it so don't get me wrong I do support the company, I really wish they had waited to release the Wizard as I have read too many negative things which have turned me off it.
> Releasing a flawed light in an attempt to rival an industry leader is just foolish and as luck would have it, more people have probably been turned off the brand as a whole thanks to their lack of testing and quality control.
> 
> Buy a Zebralight if you simply want THE best headlamp available..



The problems are fixed. My Wizard pro is a great light with no issues.
The people still waiting on their lights are the ones waiting on a V1.5 software light to be ready. This will have greater flexibility with mode changing as far as I know, but I like the way the current Wizard pro is now.

One thing though, I agree Armytek should have better explained/displayed which lights had which software or revisions etc.


----------



## YourTime

Hi

Im a big fan of Zebralight for a long time and Armytek Wizard Pro Wide has caught my attention so Im looking to get one. This thread is so long and I want to ask the Armytek Wizard Pro Wide from GoingGear is that a new version or is it still have some bugs. Please let me know 

Thanks
Nick


----------



## alan220387

Good morning, i'm new and my name is Alan and i come form Italy, sorry for my english... 
I just bought my first headlamp, an Armytek wizard pro warm and jesterday i try the armytek in a night excursion.
During the excursion I turned on the flashlight initially at 28 lumen and after 5 minutes of operation at 107 lumen. After about 15-20minutes of use I noticed that the main LED has made some flash but unfortunately I could not count ... the battery was not charging at all, I loaded the other night and i make some test in the last two days.. but not intensive.
I removed the torch from the head and I noticed that the LED on the power button flashed 3 times in a row and it was red .. unfortunately I did not have the manual with me .. but the torch was not hot , infact it was freezing so I thought about the low battery even though it seemed strange. I changed the battery (i have another battery eagletac 3400mAh with me) and I left at the level of 28 lumens .. after about 10 minutes the new flashes that unfortunately I could not count but the LED on the power button 3 times and it was always flashing red. I did not want to risk to remain in the dark, soi returned at home. 
In the return i noticed two flashing ad the 28 lumen level and stop. In the last 30 minutes i increase the level at 515 lumen for test and i had no problem. 
At home i measured the Voltage of the batteries and one is 4,03V and the other 4,05V. So don't empty. The headlamp was freeze, only in 515lumen level was a bit warm.. The temperature is not the problem for me.. 
Unfortunately I could not count the flashing of the main led.. but only the flashing of the Color-Led: 3 times and the led was red. From the manual of armytek i see that the 3 times flash of the color led is a temperature warning, i'm wrong?
During the excursion i dont' control the Voltage level with the flashing method, but one hour later at home the Voltage of the flashing corresponded with the voltage of the multimeter. 
At home i've made some test ad 515 lumen and in the other levels, andthe wizard works great. 
Theonly thing diferent is the working temperature: ad home was 20-23°C and during the excursion was 0 or -1 °C..

Can you help me?

Thank you very much and sorry form my english.

Alan from Italy


----------



## Beacon of Light

Too cold for the battery? Try it on high for a minute to warm it up and then drop it down to 28 lumens.


----------



## RI Chevy

Alan from Italy! Buon Giorno

Welcome to the Forum! :welcome:


----------



## alan220387

Thank you for the answer! I wrote directly to armytek, i wait an answer of technical support.
0°C or -1°C seems not too cold.. Today i leave the wizard out of the window (+3°C) and no problem.
Do you thik that the wizard needs to warm up before the use? 
I hope not because when i go excursion in the snow the temperature is almost always colder than 0°C... :shakehead


----------



## Beacon of Light

I live in Florida where it is 80-90 F quite often so I never have your particular problem dealing with the cold. 32F doesn't seem like it would affect the performance as that's not very cold. I do recall reading about this problem (in one of the Armytek threads (maybe over on the CPF Marketplace Armytek section?)) though but I thought it was much colder temperatures that were causing the temperature sensor to shut off the light until it warmed up.


----------



## alan220387

RI Chevy said:


> Alan from Italy! Buon Giorno
> 
> Welcome to the Forum! :welcome:



Thank You very much!


Beacon of Light: Thank you for your opinion. I'll do a search in CPF Marketplace. The user manual specifies that the 3 times Flashing of the Color led indicates the level of temperature and it must happen with the 5 flashing of the main led.. but unfortunately i could not count the number of flasching of the main led. But 3 times flashing of the color led in red indicate that the temperature increase to 75°-80°.. and is impossible. 

Alan


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## blah9

Mine flashes on me sometimes in temperatures around that range or just a little bit colder, so I'm not too surprised. I don't know if it's to be expected, but it's definitely happened to me as well. However, I have noticed that it seems to last plenty long after it flashes (so far), and sometimes it only flashes a couple times and then never does it again for the rest of the night. So perhaps it warmed up over time and then didn't have any problems? Either way I will be interested to hear more about what you learn.


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## alan220387

Hi!
I recive an answer from Armytek and the situation was clarified. 
This is the explanation:
" 1. The temperature -20C decreases the voltage of 18650 Li-Ion battery to 2.5-2.6V.
2. The headlamp tries to check if the battery can give proper LED current for an actual mode. If it's impossible, LED current will be lower, and the higher modes should be removed temporarily. Main LED flashes 3 times. Color LED flashes 3 times.
3. When the battery is heated up and the voltage increases to 3V then the modes will work as usual.

When you have this situation, it is better to switch on maximal modes to heat up the battery and return normal condition of voltage for the headlamp. It is possible for Pro models with boost or buck-boost drivers."

In my excursion is not so cold (-20°), but perhaps -3°C or -5°C.. When i returned at home, i used the levels 235 lumen and the 515 lumen, and i had no problems.. The wizard probabily warmed up and the problem did not occur. Now the wizard works great in my office at 20°C.. two days of tests and no problems!


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## TheSeeker

What turn around time are people seeing on repairs from Armytek this year? I expect things to break but need them repaired in a reasonable and predictable time.


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## jamie.91

Very good thread indeed, lots of useful info


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## bower4311

TheSeeker said:


> What turn around time are people seeing on repairs from Armytek this year? I expect things to break but need them repaired in a reasonable and predictable time.



Forget Armytek then. Feb. 7th I sent my light back to Armytek via their customer support which wasn't the fastest. Then on Feb. 12th they let me know that they shipped my device which will take 2-4 weeks to arrive from China. I'm not the happiest. I was sent a defective device in the first place that never worked correctly. If it works like everyone else says then I will be happy. With a 10 year warranty I'm hoping that will come in handy in the future. But to just get the light then have to wait this long is frustrating.


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## bower4311

Actually now that I just checked it will be here tomorrow. Not too too bad. The shipping was faster than expected. Still a while if you need quick repairs. But I'll still say the customer support wasn't flawless. Wait times varied greatly.

EDIT:

Them:Jan 16
Me:Jan 16
Them:Jan 17
Me:Jan 17
Me:Jan 25
Them:Jan 27
Me:Jan 29
Them:Jan 30
Me:Jan 30
Them:Jan 31

After that I took a little while myself to get to the point where I sent it back. Just to get an idea.


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## bower4311

Received my replaced Wizard pro and WOW the switch is much easier haha. It has an audible click and functions as should. Hopefully no problems with this one.


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## Grizzlyb

I have both Wizard Pro's, The XM-L2 U2 1010lm and the XM-L2 T6 Warm 870lm.

The White U2 LED:







The Warm T6






White U2





Warm T6





As You can see, the Warm T6 brings out the colors much better. This T6 LED is close to perfect in showing true colors.
The U2 dims the color a bit, but when You look at grains in the shorter slab of Sycamore wood, You can notice that the U2 LED brings out much more detail.

A lot has been written about the Wizard Pro. I can only ad my opinion about these lights.
Those are the most sturdy and allround useable EDC lights I have ever had.

I hope these photo's give you a good idea of the difference between these 2 lights.

btw.
It is incredible how much light can come out of a light this small.
It is only just a bit larger then the 18650 that is powering them.


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## MattSPL

Thanks for the update. Great lights. I use mine everyday in work and it performs perfectly as a handheld flood light, or head lamp.


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## Grizzlyb

I was resawing some wood today for building a classical guitar. I allways have some difficulty's having a clear vew on the sawcut and the wood.
The Wizard Pro comes with a rubber holder for the headband. I made a small nylon loop for it with 2 neodemium magnets in it and put it on the Bandsaw.
Cant emagine why the Bandsaw builders didn't come up with this themselves 
Works great. Perfect light and perfect sawcut.












And it was worth it. I ended-up with a beautiful piece of wood.


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## MattSPL

That's a great use for the Wizard


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## johndoe1027

Grizzlyb said:


> I have both Wizard Pro's, The XM-L2 U2 1010lm and the XM-L2 T6 Warm 870lm.
> 
> The White U2 LED:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Warm T6
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> White U2
> 
> As You can see, the Warm T6 brings out the colors much better. This T6 LED is close to perfect in showing true colors.
> The U2 dims the color a bit, but when You look at grains in the shorter slab of Sycamore wood, You can notice that the U2 LED brings out much more detail.



THANK YOU SO MUCH Grizzlyb! After reading this thread I just had a few questions and your post answered one of them definitively. I want the warm T6 not the cool U2. 

Sorry to drag up the thread but I just had to post. 

First of all *thank you sooooo much Knight Light* for your review and tactful responses. You are truly a scholar and a gentleman. 



I only have 2 questions and a clarification left before purchasing a wizard. 

Clarification - Still no v1.5 (or v2) but the fixed v1 is working as intended? I think I could live with the original UI when faced with an indefinite wait for the updated UI. 

1 - I started out looking for a full flood. In keeping with that I was going to get the wide verison but I saw more than one comment that the regular 70/120 beam was better and there was no need for the 90/120 beam. I will use this for up close work and looking distances up to 100' or so. Any further suggestions on wide vs normal? I really like the idea of having my entire field of vision well lit but throw is awesome as well. Kind of sounds like the 70/120 beam shines at both flood and throw. Sorry for the pun, had to. 

2 - Just assuming here but haven't seen anything definite. You have to remove the tailcap before putting the Wizard into or taking it out of the headband? Considering a holster for EDC but will use it in the band often. The easier this light is to strap and unstrap the happier I'll be. 


Thanks again to everyone who contributed to this thread. The lack of production of the 1.5 UI is very disappointing but I still think I will be happier with this light over a ZL.


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## blah9

I'm happy with the normal version (not wide), and I am glad that I didn't get wide. The normal one lights up plenty wide for my usage, so I like the fact that it doesn't take more distance away from the throw.

The Wizard Pro is kind of tough to get in and out of the headband with the tailcap on. I did it once or twice, but I wouldn't recommend it. I ended up making a crack in one of the rings in the headband holster by pushing it through. It works just fine, but I am going to just leave mine alone now and keep it in the headband.


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## jmpaul320

I have the neutral wide and 90cri regular models. 

I find that the color rendition of the neutral is so close to the 90 CRI that I usually use the t6 neutral.

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Candlepowerforums mobile app


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## tobrien

so what are the main differences between the Wizard and Wizard *Pro*? I want a good headlamp for running at night (cool white) and I'm leaning towards going with an Armytek instead of ZL H600 Mk II.

I want a simple, not-too-complex interface that I can change output selections on the fly.

*edit*: I'd _love_ to have momentary on. The Pro can do that, right? Can the non-Pro do it?


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## Beacon of Light

Strange I never knew the Wizard Pros do this. I just tried it and it worked. Since I have 2 of the originals I'll set one to tactical in .5lumen mode for instant on light. One of my bigger et peeves is the delay you normally need to turn the light on in general mode. Does anyone know if the newer versions of the Pro have a shorter delay? I know my Tiaras pro and non-pro all seem quicker than the original Wizard Pros.


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## ArmyTek

You were talking about new improved UI for Wizard Pro v2 with new lightweight body & fully new electronics.
Of course, *UI v2 is ready*. This UI could be a firmware in new Wizard Pro v2 by default.
More details are on CPFMP there: http://www.cpfmarketplace.com/mp/showthread.php?288932-Armytek-wizard/page20


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## roberta

ArmyTek said:


> You were talking about new improved UI for Wizard Pro v2 with new lightweight body & fully new electronics.
> Of course, *UI v2 is ready*. This UI could be a firmware in new Wizard Pro v2 by default.
> More details are on CPFMP there: http://www.cpfmarketplace.com/mp/showthread.php?288932-Armytek-wizard/page20


Good Day ArmyTek, 

Great news about the new Wizard Pro V2.... :thumbsup:

Could You Please tell us when it will become available for purchase/ship, and in what versions it will be available (?Cool White, ?Neutral White, ?Floody, ?other).

Thank You Very Much,
Roberta


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## Charles L.

Question to those of you who have the v1.5. Are you generally happy with it? I ask because I am considering an Armytek Wizard Pro in my pointless quest to find the *perfect* headlamp, and to be honest the differences in UI between v1.5 and v2.0 are so arcane as to be meaningless to me. If the v1.5 is satisfactory, I'll just order one. What say you, v1.5 users?

I'll be comparing this headlamp primarily to my ZL H600F. Pretty awesome light, but it has a bit more peripheral light spill/glare than I'd prefer; the regular H600 has too much of a defined hotspot for my tastes. The 70:120 focus of the Armytek beam sounds appealing. Clearly I don't need another headlamp; it's a matter of want


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## MattSPL

I have a v1.5 wizard pro and use it daily for work(electrician).
Its a great light with plenty of modes and the battery lasts several weeks of normal use or about a week of heavy use. I use an Enerpower+ 2900mAh which uses the high drain panasonic PD cell.


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## Charles L.

Thanks MattSPL. Order placed!


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## MattSPL

Charles L. said:


> Thanks MattSPL. Order placed!



No problem, let us know what you think when it arrives. 


Sent from my iPhone using Candlepowerforums


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## blah9

Hope you like it! I'm still fully satisfied after a year or so.


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## alltoclear

Hey Guys, Any idea how to different between the v1 and v.15 firmware? i just got hold of a armytek wizard pro recently and wondering what version of firmware does mine comes with. Any input would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks


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## Charles L.

Got my Wizard Pro warm today, and liking it very much overall. The tint is very nice, and the light is surprisingly powerful. I expected it to be a bit less bright than my ZL H600F, but it isn't. Beam pattern is just what I was looking for: somewhat floody, with no discernible hotspot, yet a slightly tighter beam than the H600F. Initial thoughts about the UI: OK, it's workable, but I can see why some of you might prefer to wait for the v.2 model  Prefer the ZL UI for sure.

One personal preference of mine is for a relatively light headlamp, because I do not care to wear a top strap. In this regard, the Armytek is at the high end of what I consider acceptable for extended wear. Here's the reason I sometimes use a <$45 Black Diamond headlamp rather than my Zebralight on camping trips (all weights on the same scale and include straps and batteries; ZL, Nitecore and Armytek weighed with the same AW 2600mAh 18650 battery):

Black Diamond Spot 94g
Black Diamond Storm 101g
Zebralight H600F 113g
Armytek Wizard Pro warm v 1.5 131g
Nitecore HC50 183g

Between the ZL and Armytek, I must say the Armytek has pleasantly surprised me. Its beam pattern , tint and warranty are enough to sway me over the lighter weight and easier UI of the ZL. At least that's my first impression


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## Charles L.

alltoclear said:


> Hey Guys, Any idea how to different between the v1 and v.15 firmware? i just got hold of a armytek wizard pro recently and wondering what version of firmware does mine comes with. Any input would be greatly appreciated.
> Thanks



Go to the Armytek website and compare the UI's. You should be able to determine which model you have. Good luck!


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## nas

Hi,

Which bicycle mount do you advice for this Wizard? 
This one seems nice but I don't know which it is.


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## mykhal

Hi,
I have a problem with turning the state indicator OFF or ON on my Wizard Pro XM-L2 Warm (high CRI 90).
The procedure (tailcap loosen, button press&hold, tailcap tighten, tailcap loosen, button unpress, tailcap tighten) seldom works for me, I have to try many many times until it successfully changes the state indicator state. Is it necessary to use a specific timing or some other precondition? (It's my first Armytek device)


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## meti

Do it slowly, it works every time for me. I used to do it very fast in the past and had the same experience as you


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## mykhal

meti said:


> Do it slowly, it works every time for me. ...



You're right, slowly, it is much better 

It seems that the critical part of the operation is when the button is pressed and the tailcap tightened - that moment has to last at least for approx. 1 sec.
Thx much for a hint.


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## Stevie

Any users of the Wizard out there who wear glasses / spectacles? I do.. I would like to know please how you find the light in terms of glare on your glasses? I was a bit worried about the large 120 degree spill shining down onto the face. Sorry if this has already been covered - it's a great long thread!


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## Changchung

Stevie said:


> Any users of the Wizard out there who wear glasses / spectacles? I do.. I would like to know please how you find the light in terms of glare on your glasses? I was a bit worried about the large 120 degree spill shining down onto the face. Sorry if this has already been covered - it's a great long thread!



No glare at all, dont worry...


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## scs

Changchung said:


> No glare at all, dont worry...


Unless one has a long nose and the glasses sit forward of the light?


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## MattSPL

Just a quick update on my Wizard pro.
I got this not long after they were released and have used it daily in work as an electrician.
I have dropped the light many times and it has also been in the washing machine by mistake. It still works perfectly


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## Changchung

scs said:


> Unless one has a long nose and the glasses sit forward of the light?



Normal nose, I have used headlamps for the last ten years and I never have a glare problem before.


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## blah9

I have never had a problem with glasses and glare either. My main annoyance is when all the flying bugs want to hang out in the light during the summer.


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