# Good Light for UL Backpacking



## MountainVoyageur (May 12, 2010)

I am new to this forum, and I realize the tone of this post is a bit different – it is more functionally oriented than technically. I hope that is no problem. I am more interested in suitable light for my needs, and less interested in specs like lumens or emitter/bin _per se_.

I am looking for the best light to use ultralight backpacking on trips ranging from day hikes to weekend backpacks, to 2-4 week expeditions. Also on canoe trips that last 2-4 weeks. The criteria that occur to me are:1) As light weight as possible, while still meeting the requirements. Also, compact – size matters – those UL backpacks do not have a lot of excess cubic inches.

2) Efficient – long battery run times so I do not need to carry a lot of spare batteries – whether for a weekend or for a month. Spares are OK for a month, but let’s minimize them. Efficiency also reduces the likelihood of having to change batteries in the dark if I get caught out hiking after sunset. I am not wedded to XP-G, but am impressed with its increased efficiency.

3) Flexible positioning – primarily on my head (headlamp or clip to hat visor). I would also like to be able to mount it to chest (sternum strap or pocket) or waist (for night hiking).

4) Multiple light levels, suitable for in camp, on trails, on rough terrain, and reaching out.

5) In camp –Common wisdom is a lumen or so. I do not know about the need for, or the wisdom of, a “moonlight” level. For in the tent and moving about the campsite. As far as I can see, throw is not important,unless it is needed to get enough light to see to do a task. Floodiness is important – I do not want to have to point my head at each different thing I need to see.

6) On good trails – common wisdom says about 15-20 lumens works well for that. Enough throw so you can see far enough ahead to be comfortable maintaining normal hiking speed. Enough spill so that you can see all you need to, including the trail, and are not just walking in a light-tunnel with obscure things moving by in your peripheral vision.

7) On rough terrain – common wisdom says about 40-50 lumens. For coming down off the mountain and getting back to the trail, or for cross-country travel. More distance/throw to see well ahead where to go, but still enough spill to know where to put your feet.

8) High power – the more lumens and throw the better. For finding the next blaze or cairn. For lighting up wildlife at a distance. I have even read that these high power lights can (at least sometimes) cause a bear to have second thoughts. 

9) Rugged – I’ll be careful, but it will get bumped round. Water resistance is good (think canoeing or heavy rain) – IPX8 is common and plenty good enough.

10) As far as I can see, the various flashing modes that seem so common are not important to me. I could _conceivably_ see using beacon (to mark camp and return to it) or strobe (when in a canoe and there are power boats around), but such use would be rare and but their absence is far from a deal-breaker.​ I am new to the more technical aspects of flashlights, and trying to sort it all out. I have been looking around, reading on line (including a lot of CPF), and looking at vendor specs. Little practical checking anything out, though.

To illustrate what I have been thinking, here are the lights that (based only on reading/thinking) seem best suited:
1) First choice – Zebralight H31 – very flexible choice of light outputs, and good efficiency. I understand the H31 is a lot less floody than previous Zebralights – it seems as if its beam may be a good compromise for this use. I hope the solid aluminum body will be a better heat sink, and that using a16340 will be less of an issue than with the iTP A1.a. Note: I am also strongly considering the H31W, for its neutral-white tint. Since that uses an XP-E, it should be a bit more throw-y than the H31, and definitely more than the previous Zebralights. Any comments on how this trades off against the brighter H31 would be welcome.​2) Second choice – iTP A1 EOS – also good efficiency (though not as good as the Zebralight). Decent choice of light outputs, though much less flexible than the Zebralight. Use 16340 cautiously – heats up on high power.​Notes:1) I would think these days that a regulated 1xCR123 light with 200+ OTF lumens is a reasonable expectation. 2xCR123 has some advantages, but they are not always needed, and it is heavier. A good compromise may be to get a 1xCR123 and carry a couple extra spare batteries when needed.

2) How far ahead would I expect to be able to see with the above lights in the various modes? I wonder whether the lights mentioned above reach out enough and, if not, whether the answer is a better choice or carrying a separate light to reach out.​Any comments? Any suggestions of lights that would do better? Any comments on criteria I should be looking for?

Thanks,
[FONT=&quot]--MV[/FONT]


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## hazna (May 12, 2010)

Personally I'd be looking at getting two lights. One that is floody headlamp, another one with more throw.


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## cm_mtb (May 12, 2010)

Like the above poster said, look at getting two lights, not only to have one thrower and one flood, but also to have a backup. A Surefire E2L would meet that criteria well, with its throwy optic, long runtime, and two output levels that are well suited for the outdoors. The E2L will throw more than far enough to see trail markings, etc.

The Zebralights are popular, but their reliability and water-tightness have been called into question. There is a ZL reliability thread in which a fair number of users reported problems, most often caused by ingress of water. IIRC, the lens is not sealed, but someone might correct me on that. 

Although I have not had a chance to use it, the Surefire Saint Minimus seems to have many satisfied users. The UI is excellent, and of course it has typical SF durability. Unfortunately, it doesn't fully meet you criteria because it doesn't have multiple mounting options. It is also only rated for 100 lumens, but with a handheld thrower, I don't really see the need for any more light than that. I too am looking at single CR123 headlamps, and the Minimus is at the top of my list.


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## davidt1 (May 12, 2010)

Unless everyone who responded to that poll can be a verified ZL owner (it's simple to do: by posting a picture of their ZL lights with the problem), that poll isn't trustworthy.

To the OP:

Good choices there!


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## cm_mtb (May 12, 2010)

davidt1 said:


> Unless everyone who responded to that poll can be a verified ZL owner (it's simple to do: by posting a picture of their ZL lights with the problem), that poll isn't trustworthy.



True, very few verified they actually had a problematic ZL. But multiple members with post counts numbering in the hundreds, if not thousands, stated that they have had ZL failure(s). To me, that is enough to question their reliability.


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## Brian321 (May 12, 2010)

I would have to recommend the Zebralight H31, It sounds like exactly what you need. I do have one and it has plenty of throw and still very usable wide spill.

IMHO it sounds perfect for what you describe, Although the runtime on high is not that long if you only use it on medium and low most of the time the batterys should last awhile.

If you want a light for flood only around camp, I would recommend the Zebralight H501, It is perfect for up close tasks.

YMMV,
Brian


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## TriChrome (May 12, 2010)

I don't have any suggestions for you flashlight wise, but I would look into a solar charger for your rechargeable batteries to cut down on bulk and weight.

For month long trips you're probably going to need many sets of batteries (especially if you hike/canoe at night). Having a set of batteries in the light, an extra set just in case, and a set in the solar charger would be a good plan.

Since many solar chargers still take a good 2 days of sunlight (i.e. strapped to the top of your kayak or pack) to charge a single battery, the flashlight you choose should last no matter what, at least 2 days long (which shouldn't be hard if you don't use it on turbo mode for long).


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## carrot (May 12, 2010)

I would get a Surefire Saint Minimus.

Here's why:
- better user interface
- better tilt mechanism
- better build quality / reliability
- more throw than the Zebralight, but still floody

The extra throw of the Saint Minimus means you do not need to carry two lights. At $135 it is certainly not a cheap proposition but IMHO it is the best one. Being able to adjust your light output easily and with fine granularity means you will have longer battery life. On the Zebralight it is slightly more tedious to change the output (it is not difficult, but does not nearly approach the ease of the Saint) so you will be less inclined to dim the output when you have more light than is necessary.

There is really nothing wrong with the Zebralight overall, they are nice lights provided you get one without issues, but compared to the Surefire Saint Minimus they hardly compare.


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## paulr (May 12, 2010)

IMO the lumen requirements above are ridiculously overstated for ultralight. Some UL'ers have done multi-month AT or PCT hikes with just a Photon II. The most popular camping/backpacking light of all time is the 2aa minimag, which is about 5 lumens, though its adjustable reflector gives it more throw than a typical 5lm led light when you focus it down. 200+ lumens is just a crazy amount of light (it's about half of a car headlamp worth) and there are few if any 1x123 lights (maybe just the latest XP-G R5's that are rather floody) that can put out that much. 10 years ago the brightest small lights available (Surefire E2e etc) were around 60 lumens, and the woods haven't gotten any darker since then, as some wise person recently said. Even the traditional 2 pound(?) 6 volt camping lantern was only about 30 lumens (with a big reflector for throw).

2 lights makes reasonable sense from a flashaholic perspective but is IMO not in the ultralight spirit. A compromise might be one "normal" light (1x123 or 1aaa) and one tiny backup (Photon II or equivalent).

I have a Fenix LD01 in stainless steel and I think it's bright enough for most backpacking purposes. Its 3 levels give it plenty of runtime in low mode and reasonable throw in high mode. For ultralight I'd get the HA model of course (or a Preon, which starts in low mode, but its clip goes in the wrong direction for handsfree). Treat it with a little care and it will be fine. For "rugged", you want a Ra, but those are quite heavy, not ultralight at all.

Forget about the solar charger unless you're going on a multi-month expedition and have a lot of crap to power, but in this case you will want a fairly large solar panel that you would use at a stationary campsite, not while trying to hike.

Keep in mind also that in normal backpacking you won't be moving around that much at night anyway. For a lot of the nighttime hours, you will presumably be sleeping. Flashaholics always overestimate the amount of runtime that real-world situations require, in addition to overestimating lumen requirements. People survived for thousands of years with no flashlights at all. A little bit goes a loooong way.

I just don't know of any lightweight 1x123 lights with real throw in current production. They could be made but nobody seems to be doing it. The 2x123 Quark Turbo looks interesting to me as a lightweight thrower, though I haven't tried one. The webpage says 2.8 ounces though I don't know if that includes the batteries. The Turbo plus the H31 would make a good flashaholic combo although I wouldn't consider it to be ultralight. Yes, less light than that might not be optimal. But the whole point of ultralight, as I see it, is to get by with less than optimal amounts of light and other ameneties for the sake of minimizing gear. The amount of lights you bring is _supposed_ to be suboptimal. If you bring optimal lighting you've brought too much.

If I were in your situation (attempting ultralight with slight concessions to flashaholic urges) I'd just bring a multi-level 1AAA light (Fenix LD01 or Preon) with an L92 lithium battery, and use the pocket clip to attach it to a baseball cap or headband for handsfree use, with a Photon as a backup. No dedicated headlamp. No monstrous thrower. Maybe not even a spare battery. Zebralight once expressed intention to make a 1AAA headlamp and I keep wanting them to do it, but they haven't yet.

Edit: I just looked at the H31/SC31 specs and they look very nice for this purpose. They have reflectors and traditional flashlight-like beams unlike the very floody Zebralight headlamps that I'm used to. So I'd go with either of those, probably the H31 though both have headbands.


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## MountainVoyageur (May 12, 2010)

Paulr,

Thanks for your comments. FWIW: My background goes way back to some of the lights you refer to -- such as a Justrite 4 D-cell incandescent headlamp in winter. Recently I have been using just coin cell LED lights in warm weather. I am looking to see what the best current things are.

_IMO the lumen requirements above are ridiculously overstated for ultralight._

You may be right. I am not experienced with lumen values, so my figures have been gleaned from a lot of discussions at Backpacking Light, where various people have detailed what has actually worked for them in the real world. Some of them are folks like long distance speed hikers; others are more normal backpackers. My current lights are just coin cell LED -- but there are times when that is not enough, and I certainly do not think they last long enough to do much hiking with.

_200+ lumens is just a crazy amount of light_

This seems to be where the leading edge is at this time. I anticipate use of top brightness lighting to be rare -- not commonly needed, not commonly wanted, and drains batteries. This spec is much less critical than others. I see top lumens as more nice than necessary -- good to have if not costing much of any weight or problems.

I was intrigued by Cliff Jacobson reporting that on one canoe trip in northern Canada a high-lumen LED light seemed to make a bear go away. Cliff now has two Surefires. 

_there are few if any 1x123 lights (maybe just the latest XP-G R5's that are rather floody) that can put out that much_

The two lights I mentioned are pretty bright: iTP A1 specs 190 (XP-E Q5), and Zebralight H31 specs 220 (XP-G R?). The H31W is pretty bright, too -- 161 lumens (XP-E R? neutral white).

One of the things I need to get resolved is just how floody those are. The beam shots I have seem make the H31 look not all that floody, and the H31W has an even tighter beam.

_2 lights makes reasonable sense from a flashaholic perspective but is IMO not in the ultralight spirit. A compromise might be one "normal" light (1x123 or 1aaa) and one tiny backup (Photon II or equivalent)

_I completely agree -- that's my goal. I am looking for a 1xCR123 and (possibly) some sort of Photon or equivalent.

_... and I think it's bright enough for *most *backpacking purposes

_I agree that you do not need much light for *most *purposes -- what I would like is to have the brightness in reserve for the few times it is needed, provided I can do so without much weight penalty.

_Forget about the solar charger unless you're going on a multi-month expedition_

Agreed -- I'll cross that bridge when I come to it. I doubt I'll need it, since long trips would be in summer when daylight is long. It's conceivable on a 4-week non-resupplied trip, although I would not be surprised to find it is better to carry (up to) the charger's weight of spare batteries instead.

_Keep in mind also that in normal backpacking you won't be moving around that much at night anyway._

In general, that's right. And when you are, the main need is for battery life (and perhaps cold-weather tolerance), not super-brightness. The main times I have found I need light for a long time are:


Alpine start -- hiking before sunrise
Running late, planned or otherwise. Using most of the day getting to the peak, than most of the down is in the dark, of which some may be off-trail.
Winter -- dark comes early, so I tend to travel until dark (or nearly so), and then camp/cook/etc entirely in the dark. In the morning I wake up, cook, and break camp in the dark so I can be moving around daylight.
I have not done any deliberate night travel, but am getting interested in trying some just for the fun of it.

_I just don't know of any lightweight 1x123 lights with real throw in current production_

Are the Zebralight H31 and H31W any good that way? I'm not used to judging beam shots, but from what I have heard and seen so far they look plausible.

_But the whole point of ultralight, as I see it, is to get by with less than optimal amounts of light and other amenities for the sake of minimizing gear. The amount of lights you bring is supposed to be suboptimal. If you bring optimal lighting you've brought too much._

I am glad to see you emphasizing the ultralight aspects, though I see it a little differently -- the point is not struggling. It is more like taking nothing you do not _really_ need (perhaps that is what you meant by "sub-optimal"?), choosing things that can fill multiple roles, and having enough knowledge that you can substitute knowledge for gear. I want enough light to safely and quickly do things like alpine starts and late cross-country descents. The point is minimal, without sacrificing safety or needed functionality.

I am hoping that I will find a single 1xCR123, and (possibly) a Photon-class light will be all I need. A visor clip is fine, eliminating carrying the headband. I'm neutral on an actual elastic band -- the negatives are weight and bulk. If I get an H31/H31W, I'd see about reducing the weight/bulk of that headband -- I have seen some suggestions on line for that.

_No dedicated headlamp. No monstrous thrower._

The closest I see to a "dedicated headlamp" is the Zebralight. I'd like to stick to 1xCR123, which I expect rules out "monstrous throwers".

_Maybe not even a spare battery.
_
Depends on the season, consequences, and trip length. Summer, I agree. Winter weekend, perhaps. Other winter and long trips probably deserve spare.

_Edit: I just looked at the H31/SC31 specs and they look very nice for this purpose. They have reflectors and traditional flashlight-like beams unlike the very floody Zebralight headlamps that I'm used to. So I'd go with either of those, probably the H31 though both have headbands._

I was interested to see your edit. As I see it, the H31 / H31W decision boils down the how much you believe in neutral white tint, and I have no experience with that. Unfortunately, the H31W is not the same emitter, and is significantly less bright.

--MV


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## MountainVoyageur (May 12, 2010)

CM_MBT,

_The Zebralights are popular, but their reliability and water-tightness have been called into question. There is a ZL reliability thread in which a fair number of users reported problems, most often caused by ingress of water. IIRC, the lens is not sealed, but someone might correct me on that. _

I have been following that thread with interest. One thing to see is how much of that pertains to the H31 -- it is brand new, for better or for worse.

_Although I have not had a chance to use it, the Surefire Saint Minimus seems to have many satisfied users. The UI is excellent, and of course it has typical SF durability._

Based on your remark, I just went and read several CPF threads on the Minimus. My take on it, from what I read, is that user experience is pretty mixed. the good news is that Surefire stands solidly behind their product.

Also, it is pretty much a floody. From what I see of initial reviews, the Zebralight H31 may be a better compromise -- definite spot, but wide enough, and good enough spill, for hiking.


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## MountainVoyageur (May 12, 2010)

Brian321

_I would have to recommend the Zebralight H31, It sounds like exactly what you need. I do have one and it has plenty of throw and still very usable wide spill._

Thanks for the first-hand comments.

_IMHO it sounds perfect for what you describe, Although the runtime on high is not that long if you only use it on medium and low most of the time the batterys should last awhile._

As noted in a previous reply, I would expect to use the high power only rarely. 

One of the things I would like, and that its specs meet, is to have a level suitable for night hiking with enough runtime to go all night if necessary. (I know, I could change batteries in the dark if necessary...)

Another is to have an in-camp level where I essentially do not even need to think about battery use. It specs that as well.

_If you want a light for flood only around camp, I would recommend the Zebralight H501, It is perfect for up close tasks._

No, I would like one do-it-all light, if possible. Do you think the H31 is adequate for the purpose (whether or not the H501 floody would be better)?

--MV


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## MountainVoyageur (May 12, 2010)

Carrot,

_Surefire Saint Minimus
- more throw than the Zebralight, but still flood_y

Does that comment apply the the H31? It has a lot more throw than previous Zebralights.

_There is really nothing wrong with the Zebralight overall, they are nice lights provided you get one without issues, but compared to the Surefire Saint Minimus they hardly compare. _

I am following the Zebralight reliability thread with interest. It will be interesting to see how much of what is brought up is both current and applicable to the H31.

I went and looked at several CPF threads on the Minimus. I was rather surprised at how mixed the user experience with the Minimus has been. What I read made it sound as if it is a Good Thing that Surefire stands solidly behind their product.

--MV


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## carrot (May 12, 2010)

New product woes. Surefire has ironed out the details since the first production models. I have a review up on my website (linked below) if you want to read more about my thoughts on the Saint.


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## Brian321 (May 12, 2010)

MountainVoyageur said:


> Brian321
> 
> 
> One of the things I would like, and that its specs meet, is to have a level suitable for night hiking with enough runtime to go all night if necessary. (I know, I could change batteries in the dark if necessary...)
> ...


 
I have the H31 cool white BTW.

Here are the lumen specs and runtimes for the H31 directly from the ZL website:

High: H1 *220* Lm (0.9 hrs) or H2 *120* Lm (2 hrs) 
Medium: M1 *43* Lm (12 hrs) or M2 *24 *Lm (23 hrs) 
Low: L1 *5 *Lm (3.7 days) or L2 *0.5* Lm (21 days)

As for the zebralight reliabilty, I think for the most part they are waterproof and durable. I have 3 Zebralights, H501, H501w, and H31 and they have all been caving with me and in the shower with me to get the mud cleaned off from the cave.

removed

Hope this helps, 
Brian


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## MountainVoyageur (May 12, 2010)

Carrot,

The Minimus is sure expensive ... I'm taking it seriously, though.

Do you know whether it will take 3.7 volt rechargeable batteries? I saw you do not suggest that for the Saint, because of them being run in parallel, but that reason would not apply to the Minimus. I saw somewhere that someone did not recommend that for the Minimus either, but no reason was given.

Do you know the emitter and tint it uses?

Thanks,
MV


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## MountainVoyageur (May 12, 2010)

Carrot,

I asked Surefire the same questions -- they were quick with their reply:



> You are not to use the rechargeable batteries in our lights and for emitter led we use different led's in our lights on the head lamp we don't know what the led name. Thank You



--MV


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## paulr (May 12, 2010)

> I agree that you do not need much light for *most *purposes -- what I would like is to have the brightness in reserve for the few times it is needed, provided I can do so without much weight penalty.



Well, I'm certainly no UL guru, but I had thought that UL as a philosophy was developed as a pushback against that very sentiment--UL says unless you expect it to be essential (either in the sense of something you're constantly relying on, or something to get you out of a genuinely serious and plausible emergency), leave it at home. You gain flexibility from certain types of gear, but per UL you again even more flexibility by being less encumbered. I wouldn't take the "fended off an attacking bear" stories too seriously, but if you do, the light you want is a Surefire M6 (puts out about 30 watts of photons, most of them in the infrared so they don't help the lumen rating, but they probably help the bear factor). A multi-mode LED light where you have to fool around scrolling through the mode menus while the bear is charging you sounds unhelpful. 


> Alpine start -- hiking before sunrise
> Running late, planned or otherwise. Using most of the day getting to the peak, than most of the down is in the dark, of which some may be off-trail.
> Winter -- dark comes early, so I tend to travel until dark (or nearly so), and then camp/cook/etc entirely in the dark. In the morning I wake up, cook, and break camp in the dark so I can be moving around daylight.
> I have not done any deliberate night travel, but am getting interested in trying some just for the fun of it.



The H31 medium setting (allegedly 24 lm, 23 hours) should be plenty for that stuff most of the time. Even 5 lumens would usually be enough. At 1/2 hour a day, one battery (23 hours) will last over a month. You could probably fall back to the low sub-lumen mode for a lot of that time, too. 

For night travel I think it is preferable to not use a light at all--just rely on night adaptation and ambient light such as moonlight, using a light just occasionally if you have to check something out. People and animals evolved to do this over millions of years, so it works much better than we CPF'ers often seem to imagine . I'd even think of bringing a light with a red led for that, though I guess it also runs against UL principles. Maybe your possible range of lights should include the LRI Proton Pro, which has a red led in addition to its white led. Peak LED can also set up a 1aaa Matterhorn for you with a red led.


> _I just don't know of any lightweight 1x123 lights with real throw in current production_
> 
> Are the Zebralight H31 and H31W any good that way? I'm not used to judging beam shots, but from what I have heard and seen so far they look plausible.


Well, there's multiple standards of what counts as "throw" but the H31 looks similar to typical small 1x123 lights in terms of reflector size. Yes it will have a useful amount of throw, but it is in the general purpose category. A light designed for throw will have a much bigger reflector (think of that 6v camping lantern with the 3 inch reflector) with a smooth finish. For led lights the Quark Turbos with approx 1 inch reflectors look interesting (I haven't tried one yet) and I guess start to qualify as throwers, while "throw monster" would start with something like a Tiablo A9, Dereelight DBS, that sort of thing. I understand preferring 1 cell lights, but remember that 2 cell lights don't use any more power for the same lumens, so they'll run twice as long as a 1 cell light. So you end up burning through about the same number of batteries per week either way.

Re emitter color: I have a Quark mini 123 in neutral white and it doesn't excite me that much, though there are other folks saying neutral leds are better than cool white for use around foliage. I haven't tried that myself yet. At low light levels, human vision is basically monochromatic, which means if you're lighting something up from a distance the beam color is hard to notice. For close-up use I love my McLux Sundrop (Nichia 083 high-CRI led with quite low efficiency and no throw at all) but that's mostly for aesthetic reasons. The neutral Crees, I think, just have a warmer tint than the cools, but not especially high CRI, so their color rendition will still be unnatural. 

I wonder if there is a good headband for a Ra light. Ra is supposedly working on a headlamp but they are very exacting in their development processes so I wouldn't count on any particular release date. The Saint Mini has gotten good reports but I haven't seen one myself. If it's Surefire I don't think it will be ultralight . Actually the 1x123 Surefire E1B "Backup" has a TIR optic and is supposed to have good throw, though I don't know of any direct comparisons with other lights, and it's fairly large and heavy compared to the smallest 123 lights.


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## carrot (May 12, 2010)

MountainVoyageur said:


> Carrot,
> 
> The Minimus is sure expensive ... I'm taking it seriously, though.
> 
> ...


Some have reported using RCR123s in the Saint just fine. It is well known that some Surefires are capable of using rechargables without adverse side effect. However not enough is known about the Saint to say for certain whether there will be a long term effect from using the higher voltage lithium ions.

I really would recommend using regular primary CR123s in the Saint. Primaries have about double the capacity of rechargeable RCRs and you do not have to worry about overdischarging them or the light suddenly cutting off.

It is difficult to say for certain what the Saint is using behind its special TIR lens but the die image looks a lot like a Cree die, so I'd guess it to be the XR-E R2.


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## MountainVoyageur (May 12, 2010)

paulr said:


> Well, I'm certainly no UL guru, but I had thought that UL as a philosophy was developed as a pushback against that very sentiment--UL says unless you expect it to be essential (either in the sense of something you're constantly relying on, or something to get you out of a genuinely serious and plausible emergency), leave it at home. You gain flexibility from certain types of gear, but per UL you again even more flexibility by being less encumbered.


I would basically agree. That's what I meant by saying you do not generally need major light. There are times, however, when having enough light is a safety, not just a convenience issue. Those times are uncommon enough that I am not willing to carry much weight to allow for them, but real enough that if a small amount of extra weight (say under an ounce) will handle it then I'll consider it.


> I wouldn't take the "fended off an attacking bear" stories too seriously, but if you do, the light you want is a Surefire M6 (puts out about 30 watts of photons, most of them in the infrared so they don't help the lumen rating, but they probably help the bear factor). A multi-mode LED light where you have to fool around scrolling through the mode menus while the bear is charging you sounds unhelpful.


Oh, I believe this one particular story all right -- by the way, the bear was not charging, it was trying to make up its mind. But I take it with a grain of salt -- not something I am carrying a bright light for. Note that my original message mentioned it and put a smiley at that point.


> The H31 medium setting (allegedly 24 lm, 23 hours) should be plenty for that stuff most of the time. Even 5 lumens would usually be enough.


Agreed. The 24 lumen is enough -- probably more than enough -- for at least routine hiking. The 5 lumen is enough -- probably more than enough -- for in-camp lighting.


> At 1/2 hour a day, one battery (23 hours) will last over a month. You could probably fall back to the low sub-lumen mode for a lot of that time, too.


In-camp lighted time will range from little or none per day in the summer to as much as several hours per day in the winter. Any alpine start or after-sunset return is in addition to that. Those do not, of course, happen most days.


> For night travel I think it is preferable to not use a light at all--just rely on night adaptation and ambient light such as moonlight, using a light just occasionally if you have to check something out.


That one is debatable. At best, it depends strongly on things like phase of the moon, whether you are under a lot of forest cover, and whether you expect to hike as fast as you do during the day. I will say that, in a discussion of night hiking on BPL, yours was not a point of view I recall running across. General opinion was that 10 lumens was marginal, 15-20 lumens plenty (assuming a good trail)


> Well, there's multiple standards of what counts as "throw" but the H31 looks similar to typical small 1x123 lights in terms of reflector size. Yes it will have a useful amount of throw, but it is in the general purpose category.


I am hoping it will have enough throw for all common needs, including hiking at night, even on rough terrain, without resorting to battery-hungry high power. The H501 seems to be much-loved for around-camp, but not adequate for hiking. I am hoping the H31 fixes that -- is useful around camp, and also adequate for hiking.


> A light designed for throw will have a much bigger reflector (think of that 6v camping lantern with the 3 inch reflector) with a smooth finish. For led lights the Quark Turbos with approx 1 inch reflectors look interesting (I haven't tried one yet) and I guess start to qualify as throwers, while "throw monster" would start with something like a Tiablo A9, Dereelight DBS, that sort of thing.


These are the sort of light where I start to question whether or not I truly _need_ one (I doubt I do). Yes, a spotlight might be nice once in awhile, but probably runs afoul of your opening remark.


> I understand preferring 1 cell lights, but remember that 2 cell lights don't use any more power for the same lumens, so they'll run twice as long as a 1 cell light. So you end up burning through about the same number of batteries per week either way.


Which would suggest an 18650 light. I have looked at those. The ones I have looked at seem heavier without a commensurate performance boost. So far, it has seemed better to carry a single-cell light and, when needed, extra spare batteries. 

My thought is that the bigger lights weigh more for several reasons:


The light itself is heavier to accommodate the extra battery capacity, the bigger reflector, heat sink, etc
If you need spare batteries, you need twice as many
For most trips, say weekend any time and a week or two in the summer, the H31's combination of 23 hours (24 lumens) / 89 hours (5 lumens) should be enough to see me through without a second battery.
What is your thought about this?


> Re emitter color: ... The neutral Crees, I think, just have a warmer tint than the cools, but not especially high CRI, so their color rendition will still be unnatural.


I have no personal experience with this. As I understand the proponents, they say that whether or not the colors are natural, they are better separated and so it is easier to comprehend things like the rough ground you are walking over. I have tried hard to see that in the outdoor beam shots, and so far it seems to me to be (at best) a pretty subtle thing.

The proponents say that is because cameras do not show it well -- you have to see it first-hand. I am intrigued by the number of people who say that once you have seen it for yourself, you'll never go back.


> I wonder if there is a good headband for a Ra light. Ra is supposedly working on a headlamp but they are very exacting in their development processes so I wouldn't count on any particular release date.


What is the benefit to choosing Ra? Their new headlight? Ra is new to me -- I'll have to explore their web site and at least understand the specs they do show. A moderate wait would be fine, provided there is a good reason to do so.


> The Saint Mini has gotten good reports but I haven't seen one myself. If it's Surefire I don't think it will be ultralight . Actually the 1x123 Surefire E1B "Backup" has a TIR optic and is supposed to have good throw, though I don't know of any direct comparisons with other lights, and it's fairly large and heavy compared to the smallest 123 lights.


Carrot has been mentioning the St. Minimus. It looks nice, but it is a bit heavy, and it is expensive. The user postings I have seen say it is floody, and has little throw (though opinions do vary on that last point).

--MV


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## MountainVoyageur (May 12, 2010)

*Multiple light*

It occurs to me that there has been an unspoken, but mistaken, assumption -- that I am set on purchasing just one light.

It is true that I strongly prefer to carry only one light on any given trip (possibly plus Photon), but that single light could be different for summer trips, winter trips, and multi-week trips. Doing so could still be ultralight for each trip.

That would not be ultralight for my life, though, so I'd still prefer (but not require) one light overall.

--MV


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## derangboy (May 13, 2010)

Interesting read with lots of thoughtful remarks! While I profess that I am not a hard core UL hiker, there are times when space and weight are at a premium. One of my all time favorite illumination tools is still the Petzl Tikka. It was the only light I carried for 32 hours of Land Rover G4 qualifying in 2002. We did a lot of running and orienteering in the dark. Did I mention we did a lot of running? LOTS of running. Well, a lot has changed since then and I've tried quite a few different headlamps since then. I still use the same Tikka once in a while but it has been largely replaced by a more specific caving headlamp and a Saint. The versatility of battery configurations make it's weight worthwhile to me. Tint is a bit green, but chances are you won't be camping in a white box! Rectangular beam works for me and it throws well enough for single track biking.


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## Chauncey Gardner (May 13, 2010)

MV,

I like to do the same kind of ultralight hiking / camping & spring for the extra ounces I can shave off the total load. For me it's keeping the weight off the back & I like travelling light with what makes me feel like I'm not skimping. In short, ultralite without skimping or sacrifice for the purity of staying within rigorous minimalist standards.

I'd be pretty happy with just my Fenix P2D, a headband (I have the Nitecore & Jakstrap) & a classic D-Mini (3mode digital).

Both lights will work in the headband (both at the same time in the Nitecore band should you need them), both run on what I prefer for batteries in the sticks (CR123 primaries).

I'd still opt for something small, floody & efficient like a Mini Quark 123 (or pick your configuration) & a throwy CR123 to compliment it. 

The regular Quarks & Fenix lights accept filters & diffusers & I like & use both all the time.

I need to check out the new Zlights as the CR123 offering looks just about perfect for ultralight packing.

I confess to being partial to the D-mini also, not many care for the concentrated beam it puts out, but I love it at night when things go "bump" outside the tent (Sierra Designs Hyperlight AST). 
The newer models are scorchers, but have not played with one yet.
The older style still puts out more lux than most 2x123 setups (but can't compete in total output). Only mention this particular because you sound like you may have a throw bias (like some of us). 
The R2 offerings from many manufacturers would also be appealing in a light with a more versatile beam pattern.

You could do a lot worse than a Zlight & a Fenix / Quark & spend a lot more money doing it when it came to efficient output to size ratio.
You can also buy Zebralight headbands seperately, something to consider if you want to mount a light with similiar barrel diameter.

Just my .10 & lighting is one area I'd splurge on when it came to size & another ounce in the pack. 
I guess the Esbit stove will up for it...


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## LED_astray (May 13, 2010)

Brian321 said:


> ... (Deleted oversize picture)....



It'd be nice if you cropped that photo. I'm sure you could make your point in a forum approved 800x800 pixels.

CPF Rules for Images

Thanks.


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## tedh (May 13, 2010)

I've got a small emergency bag I take on every trip, be it a day hike or multiday trip. I recently put an ITP A3 EOS in the bag for emergency use, and have been quite pleased with its performance when I've needed it. Puts out enough light for finding trail markers, but also has a decent low for around camp use. For my ultralight way of thinking, using a single AAA battery means not taking more amperage than necessary. If I need more power, I can bring more batteries (or a solar charger). I know it's not a headlamp, but sewing elastic to a hat visor should remedy that. Might be worth trying as a primary light for UL use, or using as a backup if you decide you need one. 

Ted


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## jkilo (May 13, 2010)

A big +1 for neutral white for outdoors use.

The H31 throws a helluva beam, more than likely too throwy for anything you'll be doing inside of 10 feet. You'll be craning your neck all over trying to set up camp.

Keep a bit of that ziplock freezer-wrap stuff to diffuse the beam (which you'll want 80% of the time) and simply pull it off for things that go bump in the night. If necessary, on high, it'll light a tree up well @ 150ft. Can't see needing more throw than that.

A spare 123 is a necessity, depending on where you're hiking, and weighs virtually nothing. 

And a photon on a neck lanyard, so it's always right there, even while you're sleeping. Good luck on your decision!


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## MountainVoyageur (May 13, 2010)

jkilo,
Thanks for the firm information on the H31 throw -- that's the first I've seen so concrete.


jkilo said:


> A big +1 for neutral white for outdoors use.


Do you have any information on the suitability of the H31W? It is neutral white, but less bright than the H31. Does it seem like a good trade-off? Also, thinking of your throw remarks below, the H31W should be even more throwy than the H31, according to the beam shots I have seen, and the emitter it uses. Will that be a problem around camp, or will your suggested "diffuser-wrap" handle it?


> The H31 throws a helluva beam, more than likely too throwy for anything you'll be doing inside of 10 feet. You'll be craning your neck all over trying to set up camp.
> 
> Keep a bit of that ziplock freezer-wrap stuff to diffuse the beam (which you'll want 80% of the time) and simply pull it off for things that go bump in the night.


I am unfamiliar -- what is "ziplock freezer-wrap stuff"?


> If necessary, on high, it'll light a tree up well @ 150ft. Can't see needing more throw than that.


I agree -- that sounds like plenty.


> A spare 123 is a necessity, depending on where you're hiking, and weighs virtually nothing.


I agree -- my wording was poor in the earlier message you are alluding to. I would be uncomfortable without a spare battery set -- which would be one battery for an H31/H31W, or two batteries for a 2xCR123 light.

--MV


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## carrot (May 13, 2010)

Glad Press-N-Seal is probably very similar to the freezer wrap. It has a kind of frosted texture and is somewhat sticky on one side.


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## paulr (May 13, 2010)

"Concrete description" of a flashlight throw means a lux reading. I'm not aware of one for the H31 but maybe someone has done one or will do one soon.


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## DM51 (May 13, 2010)

Brian321... please resize the photo in post #15 to comply with Rule 3.


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## carrot (May 13, 2010)

I have to note that it is quite possible to hike by candlelight, which I have tried on one occasion.


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## Shorty66 (May 13, 2010)

I have used both H501 and H501w in the outdoors and i gave the h501w to friend who liked it. 
I dont think that a warm tint has any signifcant effect on what you are able to see well. At least not in this case: The zebralight cold tints are really good in color rednition as well.
As i had both lights at the same time i was able to compare the tint and brightness directly and i imidiaty chose the brighter cold tint one as its quite a bit brighter.

The differences between xp-e warm and xp-g cold tint will be bigger and i think that the floodier xp-g beam should suit your needs better.

I would definatly go for the standard H31.


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## paulr (May 14, 2010)

MountainVoyageur said:


> I would basically agree. That's what I meant by saying you do not generally need major light. There are times, however, when having enough light is a safety, not just a convenience issue. Those times are uncommon enough that I am not willing to carry much weight to allow for them, but real enough that if a small amount of extra weight (say under an ounce) will handle it then I'll consider it.


 Well I guess I'm finding it a little bit unlikely that a 200 lumen light is going to get you out of some safety hazard that a 100 lumen one won't. As already mentioned, the most popular outdoor light of all time is 5 lumens. I _do_ frequently feel the desire for a super long range thrower outdoors, but usually just to check out something in the distance without walking to it, not as a safety issue. And it means something like a Tiablo with an aspheric, not any 1x123 pocket light. I don't actually own such a light right now because I figure I'd leave it at home because of its weight even if I had it.

Re nighttime travel, yeah, if you're doing it without a light, you want to go slow and obviously need a clear night with a moon. But I find it very pleasant under the right conditions. Even in pitch dark, unless the terrain was difficult I'd probably use a dim red led instead of a white light of any sort, to keep my night vision operational. In fact a reasonable UL combo might be a 1aaa multi-mode light (Preon, LD01, etc) and a 1aaa red light (Peak Matterhorn) with no spare batteries--with 1 battery in each light, you can always scrounge the battery from the red light if you need it for the white one. (Edit: sorry, I see I already sort of mentioned this idea. I don't mean to repeat myself. And I guess with this no-light or red light thing, I'm thinking of short-distance travel or walking around a campsite enjoying the stars, rather than trying to get from point A to point B across significant distance).

Regarding the expected Ra headlamp and Ra lights in general: they are technically advanced, bombproof lights designed for caving, and they weigh a ton compared with the Chinese lights we've been talking about (3.8 ounces for a handheld 1x123 configuration) but are leaps ahead in thoughtfulness of design and probably reliability. Someone on another thread like this said they were overkill like bringing a 4-season mountaineering tent. When I said don't expect the headlamp real soon, I mean their development cycle tends to spill into multiple years. But there is one on BST that I'm trying to resist, so if you think you might want it, grab it now .


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## MountainVoyageur (May 14, 2010)

paulr,

This thread has brought up some interesting ideas, and it is making me re-examine my thoughts (thanks, everyone). :thanks:
I am currently trying to put them in a satisfying logical order for myself. I'll probably eventually reply commenting on the various specific suggestions.

UL is situational / contextual. We had an interesting discussion on that very point recently, over on BPL. For the most part, UL tentage is measured in the ounces these days. But in some cases, we agreed that 6-7 lbs would be considered UL (in those cases traditional was more like 10-12 lbs). You do not take a cuben tarp into the places where an expeditionary dome tent is actually _needed_. The same goes for lighting. An AT thru-hiker's needs are really different than mountaineering, expeditions, or winter trips. The UL challenge is to take as little as you can and still meet the actual _needs_ (not just your wishes).

Multiple lights -- the more I think of it, the more I realize that doing as I have always done and suiting the light to the trip is the right thing to do. I'd like to bring my more difficult situations into the modern age first -- because that lighting can be used for all trips until I get around to getting something more optimal for the less intense trips (e.g. perhaps a lightweight clippy for summer weekends).

Hands-free -- that is important to me, because I will usually have hiking poles in my hands in the summer, and ski poles in the winter. That mandates either a light enough weight clippy (summer) or a real headlamp (winter). A hand-carried light will not work well at any time if I need to hike with it. I know trail runners carry them, but they are not using hiking poles.

Brightness -- you end up getting out after dark across non-trivial terrain (for whatever reason -- bit off more than you could chew, someone got hurt and is moving slowly, ...) -- perhaps a talus field, or perhaps snowshoeing down something challenging. Whatever the reason -- it's after dark, the terrain is challenging, and you need to keep going. I'm not asserting the there is anything important about 200 lumens, but I do want a meaningful amount of light. In days (way) gone by, I took a Mallory 2 AA cell hand-held light for the easy times, and a Justrite 4 D-cell headlamp for winter and other challenging times. I hear you about a mini-mag, but that is not a hands-free difficult terrain light - UL or otherwise.

Bombproof -- I had not really thought about that until you brought it up. I had been dismissing it as unnecessary weight. Then I twigged on your remark about an expedition-rated tent. There are a few times when, if you need a light at all, you need one guaranteed to not fail. Not my first purchase, but something I'll keep in mind and get when the time is right. Who knows -- perhaps Ra will even have headlamps by then. 

Night time -- I agree that doing as you describe could be pleasant. When the going is easy and discretionary, then little or no light may be pleasant. Especially if you are in the open with a full moon.

--MV


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## paulr (May 14, 2010)

I agree with you about handsfree and there are a number of headbands that can hold minimags and other handheld lights. Not as good as a real headlamp but some CPF'ers use them. I haven't tried myself. The baseball cap trick does work pretty well if you like to wear those caps. It occurs to me that my favorite hat these days is a bush hat with a floppy brim, so that method wouldn't work so well.

The Zebralight headband is quite lightweight and if you're determined you could probably adapt the H31 to an even lighter headband. Or maybe you could mount it on the front of your pack strap somehow.

I'm not familiar with the 4D Justrite but the PR13 bulb found in old fashioned 6 volt lanterns puts out about 30 lumens. 

I would think that in winter it's preferable to bivouac than try to make distance at night, but you surely know much more about this than I do, I'm just a wimpy summer hiker. 

One thing I try to do is choose electronic devices that all use the same battery type, for interoperability. These days that means AAA lights, Garmin Geko GPS (2aaa), Sansa M200 music player (1aaa, though I guess I wouldn't take this hiking), etc. This is easier to do with AA's but you end up with bigger stuff.


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## sphynx_000 (May 14, 2010)

I dont have time to read through the entire thread, so I apologize it these points have already been made.

Here is what i look for in a backpacking light,
-realiability 
I would not be comfortable carrying a zebralight, only because of some of the issues I have read about on this sight. Not to discredit the quality of the light though

-functionality
If your an ultralight backpacker, i think carrying two lights is out of the question. I feel that 90% of the time a photon freedom is all the light you need. Bigger/multiple lights only add weight and convenience. The gear you carry should be minimalist and essential.

-simplicity
Lights with tons of modes and external battery packs just add weight and more points of failure.



I would recommend the new princeton tec remix pro. I have not used one, but am about to order one as they become available.
http://www.princetontec.com/?q=node/165

-reliable
Very few problems with PT lights. CR123 offers light weight, cold weather use, and shelf life. 

-simple
All in one light, one button.

-functionality
Offers more than enough modes and different colored leds for night vision, etc. 123 and cree has a high output to weight ratio.

If you feel you need or want to carry anything more that a micro light, I feel this light will cover all the bases very well, with one of the smallest possible weight penalties.


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## MountainVoyageur (May 14, 2010)

paulr said:


> there are a number of headbands that can hold minimags and other handheld lights.


I am aware, and will look more into them. My concerns are (a) the head creates a shadow, (b) a bright light in my peripheral vision, and (c) how secure are they -- are they solid, or are they an in-camp hack


> The baseball cap trick does work pretty well if you like to wear those caps. It occurs to me that my favorite hat these days is a bush hat with a floppy brim, so that method wouldn't work so well.


My visor would be fine. My Tilley-type hat ??? The clippy would have to be very light. An iTP A3 is under an ounce (with battery) though, so might work. Provided I did not ever get an even floppier hat.


> The Zebralight headband is quite lightweight and if you're determined you could probably adapt the H31 to an even lighter headband. Or maybe you could mount it on the front of your pack strap somehow.


The Zebralight does seem like a good solution. The things I need to understand better are (a) the reliablility issues surfacing in the current thread on that very topic and (b) the (few) reports that it rotates in its holder and won't hold its position.


> I'm not familiar with the 4D Justrite but the PR13 bulb found in old fashioned 6 volt lanterns puts out about 30 lumens.


Thanks for the lumen number -- gives me a calibration point. I have not thought of "PR13" in a long time. The Justrite was _not_ UL. It had a steel light that could be focused, sturdy cord, remote steel battery compartment that you tucked inside your clothes to protect those alkaline cells from the cold.


> I would think that in winter it's preferable to bivouac than try to make distance at night, but you surely know much more about this than I do, I'm just a wimpy summer hiker.


Depends on the situation. We did deliberately hike in the dark sometimes (_e.g._ an early start), but for the most part we tried to avoid it.


> One thing I try to do is choose electronic devices that all use the same battery type, for interoperability. These days that means AAA lights, Garmin Geko GPS (2aaa), Sansa M200 music player (1aaa, though I guess I wouldn't take this hiking), etc. This is easier to do with AA's but you end up with bigger stuff.


Agreed. Depends on what you plan to take. Lots of GPS are AA, cameras are either proprietary or AA, SteriPEN is CR123...

--MV


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## MountainVoyageur (May 14, 2010)

sphynx_00,

I agree with your points.

A photon is all I do currently carry for many trips. I am looking into what is needed for trips where that is insufficient, though. For example, it is useless for anything that requires light for an extended period of time, or for anything that requires much throw (e.g. finding that next cairn).

Zebralight reliability -- still looking into that one. I like what I know about the H31. Zebralights seem nice, other than (a) the Zebralight reliability concerns and (b) the occasional report that Zebralights slip in their mountings. Otherwise, they seem nicely designed, are bright, etc.

One thing I wonder -- they are made of light metal. I wonder whether you just need to be careful of them. One of the UL tenets is that you can have lighter gear if you are careful of it -- demanding the gear be bullet-proof inevitably requires heavier gear.

KISS for reliability ... who can disagree?

One light -- yep. A trail runner may need both a floody and a throwy light, but I doubt I do.

Remix -- I have looked at it. Looks nice -- 2.8 oz as i recall. A bit heavier that some of these others, but looks like one of the best of the lights from the traditional manufacturers.

--MV


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## Egsise (May 14, 2010)

Fenix HL20 would be my choice for one allround headlamp for outdoors hiking.


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## carrot (May 14, 2010)

Have you also looked at the Quark + Prism? It is a pretty good option for a headlamp because you can also use it as a regular flashlight.


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## paulr (May 14, 2010)

Zebralights aren't bulletproof but they aren't junk. Princeton Tec headlamps are well thought out but not all that durable based on other posts (especially about the Apex series). They are made of plastic and eventually crack etc. That Remix Pro does look nice and it's just a tad over 2 ounces including the headband. It uses a CR123A and is lighter than the normal 3AAA Remix and is regulated. I have a PT Aurora, nice 3aaa 5mm headlamp, but not indestructable. It's cool that you can get the Remix with several colors of small leds (the big led is white). Maybe I'd go for red.

I think Zebralight, Quark, Fenix etc are all in the same general class. I have a ZL H50, Quark Mini 123, and several Fenixes, but no Fenix headlamps. Other than Ra, the bulletproof headlamps are made for cavers, e.g. Stenlight and Lupine(?). (Ra's predecessor company did make a bombproof headlamp many years ago, which is long obsolete, but continues to influence many current products). I'd expect the Surefire Saint Minimus to also be pretty rugged but I haven't looked at one in person. Surefire/Ra/etc. make really tough gear. I'd put the others (ZL etc) more in the category of "consumer electronics". Not that there's anything wrong with that, of course.

I almost bought a Ra Twisty on CPFMP last night but thankfully I resisted until someone else beat me to it. They do show up there fairly regularly.

Added: I see ITP is about to release a 1aaa Zebralight-inspired headlamp: http://www.batteryjunction.com/itp-h01-headlamp.html
The headband in the picture looks identical to the one that came with my H50. If you remove the headband it is a T-shaped light with a pocket clip, suggesting some mounting possibilities for handsfree use without the headband.

The Saint Minimus apparently weighs 3.3 oz incl battery, which is less than I expected. It looks attractive, with continuously variable power controlled by a knob, hopefully something like the Titan series.


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## John_Galt (May 14, 2010)

I was going to vote for the Ra Clicky 100 high CRI model... But the Ra's aren't exactly ultra-light...

Very nice from the efficiency and output stand points, though. And extremely durable.


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## hopkins (May 14, 2010)

MtnVgr
Many reliable headlamps that cost in the $30-$50 range will do the job.
When powered by lithium batteries you'll achieve that UL spec. When the next years ( 2 years) brighter models come out its not that painful to buy again as it would be if you splurged $100 plus on just one light!!! 

As you've survived with just coin cell LED lights in the past you definitely
have your skills honed. 

I'm looking at this Petzl TIKKA PLUS² headlamp as my new UL. Its got the right mix of features at a low price. 


http://www.petzl.com/en/outdoor/tikka-zipka-series/tikka-plus


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## Woods Walker (May 14, 2010)

I have been using a Quark AA mini Q3 (neutral tint) with a Nitecore headband and DIY lantern kit with a ZL H501w for UL backpacking trips.

















For little extra bulk I get a headlamp with backup, flashlight and lantern. But also use my EOSR with E01 or S2 on a Jakstrap for AAA or HL20 with Olight T15 backup at times too. Just depends.


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## mossyoak (May 14, 2010)

Nice Hennessey hammock woods, I do a good bit of backpacking and just take my pt EOS rebel, it's got a nice warm beam that works very well in the wild and also a muyshondt aeon around my neck on a custom lanyard, it's my throw monster in the woods and has a nice warm beam as well.


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## Woods Walker (May 14, 2010)

mossyoak said:


> Nice Hennessey hammock woods, I do a good bit of backpacking and just take my pt EOS rebel, it's got a nice warm beam that works very well in the wild and also a muyshondt aeon around my neck on a custom lanyard, it's my throw monster in the woods and has a nice warm beam as well.


 
You're a man who knows gear. Here is that camp on the AT during the AM.






Sometimes I roll into camp late or go for a night hike so kinda want a headlamp with one backup. The hills have a hundred ways to slip and hemlock groves are dark and dank even in mid day never mind at night. The EOSR is just a great headlamp and sometimes mix it up with my iTP A3 too. I like the little hanging lantern thing. Put it up on a hiking pole near my Bivy/tarp shelter last weekend. Sure makes the camp stand out when heading back from a water/fire wood run and sometimes it's good to take the headlamp off in camp.


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## mossyoak (May 14, 2010)

My hikin buds all use hennessey, I like the flexibilty of my eagles nest pro nest and fly, hiking in the smokies, or tellico basically anywhere around my home has rhododendron and is perennially wet and dark, swallowing up any light you have so it's more of a lost cause, and you manage to get by with very low light levels I seldom use more than 10 lumens.


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## MountainVoyageur (May 14, 2010)

Woods Walker said:


> I have been using a Quark AA mini Q3 (neutral tint) with a Nitecore headband and DIY lantern kit with a ZL H501w for UL backpacking trips.
> 
> For little extra bulk I get a headlamp with backup, flashlight and lantern. But also use my EOSR with E01 or S2 on a Jakstrap for AAA or HL20 with Olight T15 backup at times too. Just depends.


I have been worried that a setup like yours -- Quark AA mini Q3 (neutral tint) with a Nitecore headband -- would have shadowing by the head, and a bright light in your peripheral vision. What is your experience? Is that something to be concerned about?

Lantern looks interesting  can you say a bit more about that?

Thanks,
--MV


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## MountainVoyageur (May 14, 2010)

hopkins said:


> MtnVgr
> Many reliable headlamps that cost in the $30-$50 range will do the job.
> When powered by lithium batteries you'll achieve that UL spec. When the next years ( 2 years) brighter models come out its not that painful to buy again as it would be if you splurged $100 plus on just one light!!!


That is one good argument for keeping the cost down -- it won't be too painful to upgrade in the future.


> I'm looking at this Petzl TIKKA PLUS² headlamp as my new UL. Its got the right mix of features at a low price.


Petzl is nice, and a lot of folks like them, but they are not regulated. I prefer one that is regulated -- an aspect that there are reasonable people of each side of.

--MV


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## paulr (May 14, 2010)

The more I look at the Saint Minimus the more it seems like the best light discussed here so far. It's not the lightest or brightest but it appears to be very rugged, not excessively heavy, and just about completely nonsense-free. I was sort of aware of its existence before but just associated it with the much heavier Saint and didn't pay much attention. Or I might have not liked the 1x123 consideration (1aa is much less hassle). But in this application 1x123 is probably fine. I feel likely to buy one sooner or later.

Update: Hmm, now I'm looking at CPF threads about it and some are more favorable than others. Mostly favorable I'd say, some very enthusiastic. Main complaint is apparent crudeness in how the 1x123 cell holder is attached to the Saint body. The Minimus may be sort of a frankenstein created from Saint parts as kind of an afterthought, but it seems like a better design to me than the big Saint unless you need long uninterrupted runtime through using more batteries.

https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/269117
https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/267673
https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/247677


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## carrot (May 14, 2010)

Hi MountainVoyager, if you are going the inexpensive route the "higher end" Princeton Tec EOS is regulated, 70 lumens and slightly over $30. It's a very popular headlamp here, well used to before everyone went Zebra crazy. To be honest I'd rather have the EOS though, as it is truly a time-tested design (with a modern emitter, Luxeon Rebel 100).

Edit: paulr, check out my review of the Saint which I believe is fairly comprehensive and highly detail oriented.


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## Woods Walker (May 14, 2010)

MountainVoyageur said:


> I have been worried that a setup like yours -- Quark AA mini Q3 (neutral tint) with a Nitecore headband -- would have shadowing by the head, and a bright light in your peripheral vision. What is your experience? Is that something to be concerned about?
> 
> Lantern looks interesting  can you say a bit more about that?
> 
> ...


 
No glare or shadowing etc when the light is adjusted right and on the top of my head. I don't use the side position as often glare is an issue for me with lights strapped there.






I do need a little plastic clip to remove the lanyard but as this is really just a backup I get by with the extra paracord tucked into the side adjustments. The lantern is just a 2 oz dropper bottle necked down with electrical tape which has held up better than expected. It will also fit my narrow mouth 4 oz Nalgene bottle without any tape to reduce the opening.

Edit.

On a side note the headband flashlight holding loops were really made to fit thicker lights but is adjustable so works with the AA mini though it's not super snug like when used with a Fenix AA or Olight.


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## MountainVoyageur (May 15, 2010)

carrot said:


> Hi MountainVoyager, if you are going the inexpensive route ...



I'm still trying to get my head wrapped around it all.


What the choices all are
How that relates to my needs (and to a lesser extent, wants)
What I am paying for with a more expensive light. I do not want either low-priced junk or high-priced overkill.
What allowance, if any, I should make for rapidly changing technology. I tend to keep things for many years. Will that be appropriate for whatever light I buy, or is the technology still changing to rapidly?
As of yet, my mind is not yet made up on anything. I do have my prejudices, such as


I view Petzl and Princeton Tec as competitors. I tend to prefer PT, because I want a regulated light and Petzl's are not.
Something like a PT EOS or Remix Pro could be used, so if I get something else, it has to beat them -- lighter, brighter, more functional, ...
I do think it should be possible to beat them, because PT is pretty conservative.
 --MV


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## Woods Walker (May 15, 2010)

The EOS is very hard to beat within the 3XAAA class. I have an older Tikka plus and like it but the EOS is just so well done on so many levels.


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## MountainVoyageur (May 15, 2010)

Woods Walker said:


> The EOS is very hard to beat within the 3XAAA class. I have an older Tikka plus and like it but the EOS is just so well done on so many levels.



Yes, but how does it compare with the best of the 1xAA or 1XCR123 class lights? I'm not wild about the 3xAAA to begin with.

--MV


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## sphynx_000 (May 15, 2010)

*Remix weighs 2.3 oz. with headband and battery. I "think" the zebra is about 2.2 oz. with headband and battery so very similar weights there.

Does anyone know what the fenix HL20 weight with battery?


Unless you are trying to match batteries for all your gear, 123a is hard to beat. ie: $1 for a 123a is cheaper than 3xaaa alkaline or 1xaa lithium... Plus you will always have cold weather performance.


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## paulr (May 15, 2010)

Petzl and PT each make regulated and unregulated models, so you have to go by model rather than brand. I think Petzls in general seem to be better built. I've seen a bunch of reports of PT plastic cracking etc. I'm happy with my PT Aurora but I'm not a heavy duty user. I wouldn't call it a rugged light.

As for cost, the higher end lights in my opinion are really both better built and better designed than the me-too imports. In terms of pure functionality per dollar I'd have to accept that they're less cost effective, like dinner in a nice restaurant is less cost effective than a cheaper meal with the same amount of nutrition and vitamins. You have to make a personal judgment of how much you care about this. As I see it, for most of us, the cost of the lights we're talking about isn't all that large in the overall scheme of things, so just get whatever you like best even if it costs more. You'll still be enjoying the light long after you've forgotten the extra expenditure.

I wouldn't worry too much about technological obsolescence either. There was a real LED revolution in the mid-2000's where stuff changed drastically, but now it's more like digicams, steady improvements continue to happen but the old stuff stays perfectly good. Also, the better lights hold their value pretty well. If you want to switch to another light later you can usually sell the old one on CPFMP for most of what you paid for it. It's also often possible to modify an older light to install the latest LED, etc., and keep up with advances that way.


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## MountainVoyageur (May 15, 2010)

*Petzl & Princeton Tec*



> Petzl and PT each make regulated and unregulated models, so you have to go by model rather than brand.


Motivated by that statement, I just took a look.


PT EOS and Remix Pro are regulated
Petzl Tikka and Zipka models are not regulated -- note that they are claiming things like 55hr - 80hr runtime at max brightness -- down to what level, I wonder ....
Both PT and Petzl web pages seem to have been written by marketers whose goal was to have a neat web page without conveying a lot of information. For one thing, while they announce their max lumens, they give no idea of what their lower settings are. From the data they do give, I doubt that their low settings are very low.

Water: EOS is the best of this bunch -- IPx7. The Petzl Tikka and Zipka are all IPX4, as is the PT Remix Pro (i.e. rated good for occasional splashes). That lack of water resistance is especially interesting in the Remix Pro, since the sole entry on its list of things it is good for is "military". 

By contrast, most things I have seen from the makers CPF talks more about are all IPx8.

--MV


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## paulr (May 15, 2010)

*Re: Petzl & Princeton Tec*

3aaa lights like the original Tikka and Zipka are direct drive, resistor limited, so that 55h figures on the usual discharge curve of alkaline cells. In winter you'd want lithium but then you have to worry about the higher voltage overdriving the leds. It sounds to me like you're interested in higher tech lights with boost converters anyway. They sidestep all these issues.

I remember there were some CPF threads about the PT Eos so I'm sure you can find them. I remember thinking it sounded like a nice light, but have forgotten everything else about it.

Frankly unless the cost of the Saint Minimus is going to cramp your actual overall lifestyle rather than just seeming like a lot for a flashlight, if you like cr123a's, I'd say to just go for it and stop worrying. It sounds like you're into this stuff enough to appreciate a good light beyond the dry comparisons of specs and lumens. A high-end light is like a really good backpack or other top quality gear--it's just more enjoyable to use even if it's overkill for your requirements. The Minimus is also the only one of these lights I've noticed that mentions it's designed for use with gloves on. And it's a midpriced light by the standards of this place--any forthcoming Ra will cost at least as much, and something like a Stenlight is a lot more. (You should know about the BJ and 4x7 CPF'er discount codes too; if not, someone can explain them). Brightguy and some others may have CPF discounts too (I lose track).


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## Egsise (May 15, 2010)

I had nitecore headband, but i gave it away because my 1xAA lights bounced too much from side to side.

Flashlight as lantern....it is handy but the problem is the diffuser tips usually light up everything, who needs to see the trees above you?
Wasted lumens/energy i say.

Zebralight H50 is a great as lantern because you just hang it a few feet above you and all of the light comes down where you need it, same brightness as with flashlight and diffuser tip, but H50 needs only 1/3 of the energy.
The low mode is enough even for reading and lasts over 70 hours.
It is no use when hiking so a better thrower would be necessery, and during hiking it would be better if the light comes from waist height, for better depth perception.
2-10 lumens would be enough for most hiking so almost any flashlight would be enough.
Fenix HL20 low is 4 lumens, keep it your hand or put it on your head if you need both hands...

I would forget traditional flashlights, they just are not versatile as headlamps.


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## hopkins (May 15, 2010)

MtnVgr
This is fun. I have a drawer full of headlamps and I like them all for different
reasons. A few wouldn't care if I loaned them out and they never came back,
or if they got stepped on and crushed during the morning pack up. Super glue
to the rescue!

And no ones mentioned an annoying characteristic of some otherwise fine headlamps - they illuminate your nose when tilted at the proper angle
for use. 
So beware.
The face should never receive photons from the radiating area of the headlamp when tilted for walking. example: the tip of the nose back scatters
light to your eyes.
some examples of bad and good. Reflection back from snow can't be helped.
The Petzl Myo XP has the best preventative design for this real problem


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## MountainVoyageur (May 20, 2010)

Thanks to everyone who contributed. It has been interesting and educational to follow this thread, together with other related material I could find by searching CPF.
:thanks:lovecpf

I thought that, since you were all so kind with your time and suggestions, I would update you on my current thinking:


When I mention "weight" or "heavier" I mean the light complete with a spare battery set. AA batteries are calculated as Eneloops


Single cell -- there are single cell lights that are technically just fine. They are lighter and less bulky that multi-cell lights. I know of no compelling advantage to a multi-cell light for my uses.


Different trips have different light requirements; I do not need a closet full of lights (like some on this forum have ), but sooner or later I shall need more than one. For any given trip, I'll take the lightest suitable one from the list below.


Because of hiking and ski poles, the lights need to be hands-free. Hands-free is also more convenient in camp. I even have a clip for my photon. For various reasons, such as glare, jiggle, and interaction with soft hats and parka hoods, I do not want to depend on after-market straps, such as Jakstrap, Nitecore, Nite Ize, and Fenix ones.


Weight is important, but I am not going to count every last gram. I am willing to pay a _small_ amount of weight if I see the functional benefit.


The list, from lightest to heaviest, as I see it:



Coin cell light -- Photon/Fauxton seems like the winner here. For now I'll keep on with my current ones. This will be enough for many trips.
 



Clip-on lights. These can be under an ounce (e.g. iTP A3). Because of the need to clip on, any light in this category has to be quite light, which rules out a number of otherwise nice lights. For now, I'm going to ignore this category and just bring either my headlamp or a clip-on version thereof. We are only talking of an extra ounce or so. Getting a lighter dedicated one will be an optimization down the road.
 



Throwy headlamp, with good spill. I'll have to investigate things like in-camp and in-tent performance, but for trips where the throw is needed, I am hoping and expecting this can be the only light I take. (I am expecting its lower levels to handle in-camp and in-tent quite well, even if not quite as nice as an all-out floody light.)
 



Floody headlamp. This should be better in camp, and can also handle some modest hiking. I'll take this (alone) on trips where I do not foresee needing the extra throw of the throwy headlamp -- where any night hiking is not excessively difficult. I'll also take it on two-light trips (see below); because of that the light _must _reasonably attach to my waist belt.
 



Bombproof light -- I have ideas for some trips where this would be important. Given those trips are not imminent, and that these lights are both heavier and more expensive, I'll wait until closer to where I have a definite need before getting one.
 


Two lights -- a trail runner made as good a case as any for two lights when trail running, and how to structure them. I could see that for some rough UL trips as well, but they will not be the majority. My plan for the times I do need this approach is to attach my floody to my waist, and use my throwy headlamp (rather than hand-hold the throwy light as the other poster does).


Which light -- I have worried about functionality more than cost. There are more expensive lights I have ruled out, but the reason has not been cost.



Both headlamps must take the same battery, so that I have commonality if/when I take them both on the same trip.
 



When I first saw the Zebralights, I thought that an angle light was weird. The more I have thought about it, the more I like that angle light approach, and they are the only game in town.
 
(As I see it, the Quark prism is heavier, kills throw, swallows a lot of light, and is fussier with its extra pieces. It has its uses, but being a throwy headlamp for me to hike with is not one of them.)

There is also the Fenix MC-10 -- I passed on that for reasons described below.​

I like the Zebralight H31 generation. I need to see the H51 series (supposed to be out later this month) before making up my mind between AA and C123A lights.
 



I am concerned about the (un)reliability reports for Zebralights. OTOH I note that most owners seem very happy with them, and even those who have trouble say that ZL gives good service and stands behind its product. I'll just have to count on that if need be.
 


Other headlamps I have considered:



Petzl Tikka / Zipka -- non-regulated and IPX4 are deal-killers
 



PT Remix Pro -- only IPX4
 



PT EOS -- basically a good light. It is heavier and bulkier, though
 



Surefire Saint Minimus -- also a good light. It is a pure floody, though, and I do not see that it can easily be attached to a waist belt or sternum strap. Also on the heavy side, though not as much so as the PT EOS. The cost does not rule it out _per se_, but I would need to see a compelling advantage before paying that much for one.
 



iTP H01 -- I do not want AAA. Mid-level performance not really competitive with the Zebralights
 



Fenix HL20 -- mid-level too bright, weight a little high (same as Minimus)
 



Fenix MC-10 Angle --mid-level too bright (seems to be characteristic of Fenix), and too heavy. I'd have to think about their angle mechanism, too.
 
That's it. I'm waiting to hear about the Zebralight H51 family -- to get the specs, and to hear the initial reviews. While waiting, I continue to refine my thoughts. I go back and forth on neutral/warm _vs._ cool white, and on AA _vs._ CR123A.

--MV


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## paulr (May 20, 2010)

The Saint Minimus is NOT a pure floody lamp, at least the way the H50 is. It is floody, but has an aspheric optic that does a careful job organizing the beam for decent reach and spill. You could combine it with a mini-thrower like an E1B though that adds more weight and gets expensive. Carrot's review is here: http://www.gearcarrot.com/blog/2010/03/surefire-saint-review/ (also this thread) and if he's still on this thread he might have more to say. I'm not trying to give a sales pitch for it, I've just gotten interested enough in it from this thread that I might buy one (but that's just me).

If you go with AA, your backup cell and maybe your main cell should be an L91 lithium. An L91 is half the weight of an Eneloop, has 2x the energy capacity, and works much better in cold weather. It's just not rechargeable. An L91 has almost the same weight, volume, and energy as a 123, but a different voltage and shape.

I'm not sure what your objection is to AAA since it's an obvious notion if you're trying to minimize weight, but you know your priorities better than I do.

I wouldn't take anyone's lumen and IPX numbers too seriously (except maybe SF's) since they are mostly made-up marketing nonsense. 

There is a long thread about ZL reliability whose basic conclusion (iirc) is that the twisty ZL's work pretty well and the pushbuttons have had some problems. https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/251039

I agree with most of your other conclusions.


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## MountainVoyageur (May 20, 2010)

Paul,

Thanks for taking the time to provide your comments.


paulr said:


> The Saint Minimus is NOT a pure floody lamp, at least the way the H50 is. It is floody, but has an aspheric optic that does a careful job organizing the beam for decent reach and spill. You could combine it with a mini-thrower like an E1B though that adds more weight and gets expensive. Carrot's review is here: http://www.gearcarrot.com/blog/2010/03/surefire-saint-review/ (also this thread) and if he's still on this thread he might have more to say. I'm not trying to give a sales pitch for it, I've just gotten interested enough in it from this thread that I might buy one (but that's just me).


This thread also made me aware of the Saint Minimus, and I liked what I saw. I thought about it quite a bit, but in the end decided I don't have a match at this time. Perhaps in the future. I sure can understand someone wanting to buy one.

I took the Saint Minimus' beam to be more like the H501 than the H50. The H501, which most people classify as floody, is also described as having a smooth beam that is a good match for your peripheral vision. I took the information from the Saint Minimus web site to be supporting that point of view:


Minimus produces a wide, variable-output beam optimized for your field of vision.
Proprietary refractive optic produces a smooth, wide beam optimized for your field of vision
There are no hot spots, rings, or defects; just a smooth white beam that corresponds nicely with your peripheral vision
From Carrot's review:


In any case, the Saint creates a beautiful rectangular flood, softly tapering off on the sides,
I also ran across scattered postings at CPF describing the beam as floody.

That's why I thought of the Minimus as floody (H501 style). Note that H501 users say the light is fine for a lot of trail walking. I would assume the Saint Minimus is similar to the H501 in that respect.

Is your understanding different from the above? Perhaps if Carrot is still monitoring this thread, he can chime in if my understanding is way off base.



> If you go with AA, your backup cell and maybe your main cell should be an L91 lithium. An L91 is half the weight of an Eneloop, has 2x the energy capacity, and works much better in cold weather. It's just not rechargeable. An L91 has almost the same weight, volume, and energy as a 123, but a different voltage and shape.


Agreed -- I did not mention that, but my thinking for AA is that lithium batteries make sense for at least the spare and use below freezing. I may try them for main use -- they do save about 0.4 oz over Eneloop -- but I prefer rechargeable for my in-use batteries where possible (just a general principles thing).



> I'm not sure what your objection is to AAA since it's an obvious notion if you're trying to minimize weight, but you know your priorities better than I do.


If you mean for a clip-on, then I agree that AAA is probably the way to go. That's why I referred to the iTP A3.

As for a headlamp, if you want the possibility of using both a throw and a flood at times, AAA presents a problem -- the H01 is the only game in town. (A clip-on is not going to work well with a wool hat and a parka hood.) Furthermore, you would not be saving much weight -- here are some weights (including the spare battery):


iTP H01 -- 2.8 oz (AAA)
ZL H31 -- 2.9 oz (CR123A)
ZL H50 -- 2.5 oz (AA)
If the H51 weight is as much heavier than the H50 as the H31 is from the H30, then the H51 will weigh 2.8 oz



> I wouldn't take anyone's lumen and IPX numbers too seriously (except maybe SF's) since they are mostly made-up marketing nonsense.


I am surprised at the IPX comments. I would have thought that pretty cut-and-dried. I do not attach any weight to the difference between the PT EOS claiming IPX7 and the iTP Ax EOS (IP68) and ZL (IPX8) lights. I would hope that they are clearly more waterproof than the ones that only claim IPX4, though. Are you telling me that is a vain hope?

As to lumens, expect that there are problems both with how they are measured and with what is measured. I was surprised to read somewhere that Fenix measures them at the emitter. As I think about it, I suppose that I should assume an emitter measurement unless the spec clearly says it is an OTF measurement. (Is there list anywhere of who measures OTF and who measures otherwise?)

If Fenix really does measure at the emitter, they may be doing themselves a disservice -- one of the complaints about them is that their low and mid level are too bright. To the extent that gripe is from spec reading, it could be due to how they are measured (which thought just occurred to me).

In any case, you note that my writeup did not choose lights on higher claimed lumens, especially not on higher max lumens. I am more interested in solid mid-level lumens (for hiking), nice low low-level lumens (for in camp and tent), and good efficiency (i.e. long run times). While more lumens on high power is welcome, all of the lights we are talking about have enough so that is not a deciding criterion.



> There is a long thread about ZL reliability whose basic conclusion (iirc) is that the twisty ZL's work pretty well and the pushbuttons have had some problems. https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/251039


I am still thinking about that one ...



> I agree with most of your other conclusions.


--MV


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## De-Lux (May 20, 2010)

I have the H-30 Q5 and use it quite a bit for back packing and quite honestly it is the only light I really need when Backpacking. I usually bring either my Fenix PD30 or Nitecore EX10 for back-up but they rarely get used. The H-30 is pure flood which works great for backing IMHO. I also like the fact that the H-30 can use Lithium Ion or primary cells. My H-30 is probably the most versatile light I own. The raised clicky can be an issue but you can always lock out the switch by twisting the battery cap a half turn counter clockwise. I have had no issues with reliability with the H-30 but have heard of issue's with the H-60. The H-50 will probably be your best bet for reliability with it's twisty switch. My only complaint with this light is its IPX8 waterproof rating which in my opinion is a bit of a joke but just don't go swimming with it and you should be fine.


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## Shorty66 (May 20, 2010)

I use the H501 for backpacking and mountaineering and though i agree that flood is the right choice for backpacking and living around camp there are some situations where you really need some throw while mountaineering. 
For example looking for the right way can be quite difficult with a pure flood light.

I have had three clicky zebralights (h60, h501, h501w) and none ever had problems.


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## BigHonu (May 21, 2010)

What an excellent discussion! 

MV, does your hands free requirement automatically translate into a headlamp or would something attached to your pack straps, waist, etc. suffice? 

I see that paulr has mentioned a Ra light and aside from it's 'bombproof' construction I believe that the flexibility in output has to be it's biggest attribute. 23 levels going from tenths of a lumen all the way up to 140/170 depending on the model. You can program your light to the whatever levels you want based upon your needs, even if your needs change over the course of your journey. 

The two most glaring issues are:
Weight - 3.5 ounces (IIRC) with battery. Not exactly UL gear.
It is a handheld by design. You would need to come up with a way to mount it to your gear or noggin.

Good luck on your search!


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## DM51 (May 21, 2010)

BigHonu said:


> What an excellent discussion!


Agreed! And full credit to MV for steering the thread along so well.


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## MountainVoyageur (May 21, 2010)

BigHonu said:


> What an excellent discussion!
> 
> MV, does your hands free requirement automatically translate into a headlamp or would something attached to your pack straps, waist, etc. suffice?




I can see a clip-on (to a hat brim) being lighter for some trips, and perfectly acceptable. This could be a dedicated light, or a headlamp in its lighter clippy mode. That won't work well when I have a wool hat and/or parka hood on my head, though.


I am not excited about after-market head straps for this use, for reasons I mentioned in a previous posting. That means lights must be either a headlamp or a light weigh clippy.


If one takes a floody as part of a two-light solution, it will need to be mounted as you describe above (see the link I provided in my previous posting). I also think that on easy to moderate trails mounting a single floody as you describe may be the way to go -- you allegedly get better depth perception with the light mounted low; I'd need to try both a throwy-with-spill and a floody to see which is better for that use, though.


Bottom line is that I see a suitable light as being either a light weight clippy for some trips or else a headlamp that, at least if floody, can optionally be clipped places such you describe.



> I see that paulr has mentioned a Ra light and aside from it's 'bombproof' construction ... Not exactly UL gear.


I see the Ra as being very nice, and one of the choices in my last category (bombproof) -- something I'll look at in the future if/when I take a trip where bombproof _is_ ultralight (for that trip).
--MV


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## red02 (May 21, 2010)

paulr said:


> If you go with AA, your backup cell and maybe your main cell should be an L91 lithium. An L91 is half the weight of an Eneloop, has 2x the energy capacity, and works much better in cold weather.



According the the freezer test:
https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/241606

Eneloops' performace doesn't suffer because of cold.


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## Woods Walker (May 22, 2010)

Egsise said:


> Zebralight H50 is a great as lantern.


 
Yup the H50 is a fine UL lantern. 






The H501 isn’t all that shabby for a lantern either.


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## hopkins (May 22, 2010)

A few more thoughts
When Hiking at night and you pause to find something in your *pack* a light mounted on the shoulder strap/ waist belt is suddenly silly ,

but can be overcome by the mouth grip. But suppose you want to drink or eat a snack then the mouth grip also fails to work. So transferring a light from straps to hands to mouth, etc raises the chance of dropping it into a creek
or down a hole between the boulders.

So a dedicated headlamp has a some advantages that are hard to beat.

Camping I'll sleep with a headlamp on my head so when the inevitable bump in the night happens there is no fumbling.

There are interesting things to see at night but you have to be fast because they can also be fast.

As for rain; its very a hardcore night hiker that does it in the rain without a poncho hood to keep the lamp and your head a little more dry than completely soaked , so IPX4 works unless you plan to hike near salt water spray.

Salt should be kept out of headlamps (don't spill soup on it etc) but thankfully rain is pure distilled water and has not 
shorted out any of my headlamps.


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## paulr (May 22, 2010)

MountainVoyageur said:


> I took the Saint Minimus' beam to be more like the H501 than the H50. The H501, which most people classify as floody, is also described as having a smooth beam that is a good match for your peripheral vision.


 Well I'm going by the same descriptions as you, so you know what I do. I have an H50 and love it, but haven't tried an H501 so can't compare directly. The H50 is pure flood, has basically no throw, would not be a great choice for trail hiking because of this. Its beam is similar to the original McLux Mule PD which just had flat glass over the led. From descriptions I saw of the H501 it is only slightly more directional than the H50 and I saw that as similar to the Sundrop, which again has not much throw. The pictures I've seen of the Saint beam are quite a bit narrower than the H50 beam, though still not highly directional.

I tend to think Surefire knows what it's doing in designing a headlamp for outdoor use. I've mostly used headlamps for close-up lighting (e.g. fixing a car or indoors), where I've found directional headlamps to be too narrow, so my desires are maybe not the same as an outdoor user's. Again, maybe Carrot can speak up. 



> Agreed -- I did not mention that, but my thinking for AA is that lithium batteries make sense for at least the spare and use below freezing. I may try them for main use -- they do save about 0.4 oz over Eneloop -- but I prefer rechargeable for my in-use batteries where possible (just a general principles thing).


 Fair enough, that's a reason to prefer a 1aa light over cr123. (I'm leery of lithium ion cells especially in a headlamp, due to explosion horror stories). I wondered in the Saint review thread if it might be possible to make a custom battery cap that would allow running a Saint on a high-current AA like an Eneloop or L91.

After discussion and calculations on the ITP H01 thread, I think AAA isn't all that attractive after all, at least with currently available lights. Oh well. I remembered a super-lightweight headlamp called the CMG Tracer, which had 1aaa and two 5mm leds. The difference between an AAA and an AA pocket light is really noticable, but if add a ZL-like headband, the light itself is no longer the biggest component.


> As for a headlamp, if you want the possibility of using both a throw and a flood at times, AAA presents a problem -- the H01 is the only game in town. (A clip-on is not going to work well with a wool hat and a parka hood.) Furthermore, you would not be saving much weight -- here are some weights (including the spare battery):


Yeah, I guess if you're making serious use of a headlamp you should use a real one rather than an improvised one, to the extent that whatever UL doctrine you choose to follow allows it.


> I am surprised at the IPX comments. I would have thought that pretty cut-and-dried. I do not attach any weight to the difference between the PT EOS claiming IPX7 and the iTP Ax EOS (IP68) and ZL (IPX8) lights. I would hope that they are clearly more waterproof than the ones that only claim IPX4, though. Are you telling me that is a vain hope?


I just wouldn't take any of that stuff seriously unless I really knew something about the testing regimes in use. Unless there's some traceable independent certification I'd consider any such specs to be pulled out of the marketing department's butt. I wouldn't hesitate to wear my H50 in wet weather but even ignoring waterproofing issues, I wouldn't consider it to be designed for severe duty because of its lightweight construction, and the rubber headband attachment gizmo possibly being breakable (although, it does come with a spare one, and I haven't heard of anyone actually breaking one yet). 



> As to lumens, expect that there are problems both with how they are measured and with what is measured. I was surprised to read somewhere that Fenix measures them at the emitter. As I think about it, I suppose that I should assume an emitter measurement unless the spec clearly says it is an OTF measurement. (Is there list anywhere of who measures OTF and who measures otherwise?)


Measures? Hah. I think they either extrapolate from the led manufacturer's spec sheet, or again just make up numbers. But yes, until recently almost everyone did that (used emitter specs) except Surefire/Arc/HDS. "OTF" entered the marketing lexicon not long ago, I think because of CPF. But again I just don't believe the numbers I sometimes see. The Surefire E1B thread mentioned subjective tests indicating the 120 lumen E1B to be equal to the 190 lumen Quark. Some CPF'ers do recreational testing in small homemade spheres, and I guess the results are better than nothing, but Arc spent hundreds of bucks per test in a 4(?) foot lab sphere that cost something like $25,000, and I figure those expensive spheres are made that way for a reason.


> If Fenix really does measure at the emitter, they may be doing themselves a disservice -- one of the complaints about them is that their low and mid level are too bright.


Ehh, I wouldn't worry about this too much. It's not that the low/mid are too bright, it's that they're too closely spaced for the multiple levels to be that useful. It's not that big a deal though unless you're really trying to skulk around in the dark.

Ra currently doesn't sell a headlamp. It supposedly has one in development. My guess is it will be similar in spirit to their flashlights. Very advanced and very tough, designed primarily for cavers.


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## MountainVoyageur (May 22, 2010)

hopkins said:


> A few more thoughts
> ...
> As for rain; its very a hardcore night hiker that does it in the rain without a poncho hood to keep the lamp and your head a little more dry than completely soaked , so IPX4 works unless you plan to hike near salt water spray.


My preferring IPX8 is for use around canoes. There is a distinct chance of the light getting dunked, not just splashed.

Also, the Canadian Coast Guard regulations are for a "watertight" flashlight if out after dark. I presume IPX4 may be OK for that, but have not researched to be sure. (I doubt anyone will check very closely, though.)

Any Canadians on board here who know the answer to that? Does IPX4 meet the current CCG requirement?

So, since IPX8 is pretty common these days, why not go for it? (I know ... rules out Petzl. However, the Tikka and Zipka are not regulated, which already rules them out for me.)

--MV


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## MountainVoyageur (May 22, 2010)

paulr said:


> I tend to think Surefire knows what it's doing in designing a headlamp for outdoor use. I've mostly used headlamps for close-up lighting (e.g. fixing a car or indoors), where I've found directional headlamps to be too narrow, so my desires are maybe not the same as an outdoor user's. Again, maybe Carrot can speak up.


I searched the forums with the string "Saint Minimus beam hiking". I found some mixed opinions of how the Minimus is for hiking ... some said not enough throw. There were plenty who are happy with it, though, such as this one:


> I should say while I'm not afraid of the dark or the woods, I was once chased for a short distance by a mountain lion not far from where we were hiking about 10 years ago, so having the lights was nice. With the minimus secured on my head, I switched it on. Let there be light...
> At the lowest setting the pitch suddenly turned into a puddle, which I could now avoid stepping in. I had plenty of light to see my footing. As I turned the dial up, the blackness became illuminted farther and farther out. I could see everything perfectly on the trail, the gentle flood spilling to the sides and also illuminating the trees above. It was cold enough and damp enough, the only thing effecting my vision was my breath shining in the bright flood of the minimus.
> 
> In short the minimus was amazing. Even at the lowest setting, I had plenty of light to manouver. With the light at the halfway detent, I could see clearly down the trail. At full blast, the minius really reaches far for a flood. It never really becomes a WOW bright level, but is about as bright as you would need without being blinding.
> ...





> After discussion and calculations on the ITP H01 thread, I think AAA isn't all that attractive after all, at least with currently available lights.


Right. There is little point to AAA unless either the weight is lighter or the form factor is enough smaller you care. As I read things, the HT01 is neither of those.


> Yeah, I guess if you're making serious use of a headlamp you should use a real one rather than an improvised one, to the extent that whatever UL doctrine you choose to follow allows it.


My "doctrine" is to be realistic -- UL means the lightest that meets trip requirements. Sometimes that is a Photon. Sometimes it is a AAA light that clips on. And, for some trips, it is a real headlamp.


> Ehh, I wouldn't worry about this too much. It's not that the low/mid are too bright, it's that they're too closely spaced for the multiple levels to be that useful.


Thanks for reminding me of that -- I have not been paying enough explicit attention to the spacing. I think I have been doing OK implicitly, but I should double-check.


> Ra currently doesn't sell a headlamp. It supposedly has one in development. My guess is it will be similar in spirit to their flashlights. Very advanced and very tough, designed primarily for cavers.


I look forward to hearing about it when it finally becomes available.

--MV


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## Plinko (May 24, 2010)

Tons of input so far, and most seem to be overshooting your target. 

Here's my recommendation, based on lots of trail miles, peaks bagged, and gear whoring. 

You already know the answer and have been using it. 

If you hike trails, a Photon is plenty of light. At 0.25 oz each, they're more suited to the UL ethos than any other options. 

Velcro dot + hat brim = headlamp. 

I carry 3 Photons for summer trail hiking, one white LED version, one backup in the first aid kit (make this one a yellow/red/orange etc LED with CR2032 cell for increased run-time), and a third that lives on my key chain. 

If there's ever a situation where you need more light, run 2 or even 3 at once. Total redundancy, and grand total of just 0.75 oz!

Add other lights based on your activity level. If you're adventure racing, trail-running at night, route-finding, scrambling, winter camping, etc you'll obviously require more light, and you supplement what you have with more firepower.

For you're needs, save the money and the weight with Photons, then continue to refine other areas of your system.


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## carrot (May 24, 2010)

Sadly the only way to see if a certain product really works for you is to buy it. Nowadays if I want a product badly enough I tend to buy it without much fuss over what people are saying and see if it works for what I want it for. If it doesn't, I may resell it or use it for other tasks than originally intended. 

With Surefire this is especially feasible because they retain much of their value on the secondhand market, especially if you already bought it used or get a friendly discount from a dealer. Others tend to be cheap enough that they will not make too big a dent on your budget regardless of what you choose to do with them if you do not like them.

You can, of course, take advantage of stores that have great customer service and return policies, like REI, and take the product out on a test run. If you don't like it, just return it.


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## MountainVoyageur (May 24, 2010)

carrot said:


> You can, of course, take advantage of stores that have great customer service and return policies, like REI, and take the product out on a test run. If you don't like it, just return it.


Speaking of REI, I discovered recently (in another context) that when they carry one item from a manufacturer you can special-order that manufacturer's other models that they do not carry. Amazingly (to me, at least) their generous return policy still applies, and you still get your dividend.

I presume that what I discovered generalizes. I was talking of a canoe model they did not have in their catalog. I said I was reluctant to order one without first touching it and, preferably, paddling it. They said I could special order it, try it out, and return it if I did not like it. I was amazed that I would be able to return a special order. I did clarify, to ensure no miscommunication.

They don't carry most of the brands that you see on this forum, but they do carry SureFire, including the Saint Minimus (for those who want to give it a try). Even if you do not catch it on sale, you can still get your dividend -- a bit of a discount.

--MV


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## carrot (May 24, 2010)

MountainVoyageur said:


> They don't carry most of the brands that you see on this forum, but they do carry SureFire, including the Saint Minimus (for those who want to give it a try). Even if you do not catch it on sale, you can still get your dividend -- a bit of a discount.
> 
> --MV



Does that mean you're going to give it a shot?


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## tritan (May 24, 2010)

paulr said:


> I have a Fenix LD01 in stainless steel and I think it's bright enough for most backpacking purposes. Its 3 levels give it plenty of runtime in low mode and reasonable throw in high mode. For ultralight I'd get the HA model of course (or a Preon, which starts in low mode, but its clip goes in the wrong direction for handsfree). Treat it with a little care and it will be fine. For "rugged", you want a Ra, but those are quite heavy, not ultralight at all.
> 
> 
> Keep in mind also that in normal backpacking you won't be moving around that much at night anyway. For a lot of the nighttime hours, you will presumably be sleeping. Flashaholics always overestimate the amount of runtime that real-world situations require, in addition to overestimating lumen requirements. People survived for thousands of years with no flashlights at all. A little bit goes a loooong way.
> ...



I just got back from a weekend trip and he is right. you don't move around much after a full day . You are ready for bed. I bought a headlamp and a fenix EO1 as a backup . 13.00 and runs on a AAA . I used the Eo1 hanging in my tent for 2 hours a night reading and no dimming issues. I love that light so much that I am looking to upgrade to a Preon or the ld1 so I can have a clip to push on my hat for a headlamp.


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## MountainVoyageur (May 25, 2010)

carrot said:


> Does that mean you're going to give it a shot?


There is no doubt that the Minimus is a nice headlamp. I intend to take a look at it at REI (if the local REI has them in stock) just to get a hands-on feel for one.

As to purchase -- the first thing is that I need to decide on AA vs CR123A. I favor rechargeable on general principles, and am not set up for LiIon recharging.

I anxiously await the ZL H51 family -- announcement, specs, and initial user reviews -- so I can also consider that.

--MV


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## paulr (May 25, 2010)

You won't get anywhere near the lumens from a 1aa light that you can from a 123, but lumens are overrated. I'd expect the H51 to be similar to the SC50, which got a very favorable review on CPF recently.


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## MountainVoyageur (May 25, 2010)

paulr said:


> You won't get anywhere near the lumens from a 1aa light that you can from a 123, but lumens are overrated. I'd expect the H51 to be similar to the SC50, which got a very favorable review on CPF recently.


I know that is the common wisdom. However, to the extent one can rely on manufacturers' claims, it seems to me that the data are somewhat ambiguous.

One thing I do not understand is how to reliably/usefully compare lumens claims, aside from being careful that either both are OTF or both are not. I note the cautions here that manufacturers' claimed numbers are not reliable. OTOH I do not expect to buy one of each so I can do my own first-hand comparisons. That said:


OTF measurements seem preferable, because that measurement removes some variables, such as the reflector. ZL claims OTF; I do not know about St. Minimus.
 

The ZL H31 claimed lumens and runtime are both significantly better than the St. Minimus claims (both are CR123 lights).


The ZL H501 claimed lumens are fairly similar to those for the St. Minimus, while the H501's claimed run times are longer than for St. Minimus.


I would expect the H51 family to be more efficient that the H501, and to compare even more favorably to the St. Minimus.


The ZL SC50 claimed lumens and runtimes are significantly better than the St. Minimum claims. The H51 should be at least as good as the SC50.

As to beam:


The St. Minimus has a very nice one, but so does the H501. They both claim to fill the peripheral vision nicely. Both are reported to be very smooth. We shall just have to wait and see for the H51F, but I would expect ZL to be planning for the H51F to supercede the H501.


I pointed out in an earlier posting why I think the St. Minimus beam may be more similar to the H501 than to the H31 / H51 -- i.e. less throw than the latter two.
 
I'd be interested in any pointers that would help confirm/deny that the ZL lights outperform the St. Minimus (as the respective manufacturers' claims indicate).

--MV


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## Egsise (May 25, 2010)

MountainVoyageur said:


> OTF measurements seem preferable, because that measurement removes some variables, such as the reflector. ZL claims OTF; I do not know about St. Minimus.


ZebraLight has been a little optimistic in it's OTF claims.
Remember H50 Q5 vs H501 Q5?


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## paulr (May 25, 2010)

MountainVoyageur said:


> However, to the extent one can rely on manufacturers' claims, ...



None of those companies have any magic leds or electronics. If a claim looks too good to be true, that means it's probably not true. It is basically the same technology at the bottom of all these lights that were made around the same time. One light is not likely to outperform another comparable one in raw lumen output except by trading off runtime or by being newer (leds have gotten a lot better in the past few years). Any other claimed differences can mostly be ascribed to the marketing department. Take such numbers with a grain of salt.


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## MountainVoyageur (May 25, 2010)

paulr said:


> None of those companies have any magic leds or electronics. If a claim looks too good to be true, that means it's probably not true. It is basically the same technology at the bottom of all these lights that were made around the same time. One light is not likely to outperform another comparable one in raw lumen output except by trading off runtime or by being newer (leds have gotten a lot better in the past few years). Any other claimed differences can mostly be ascribed to the marketing department. Take such numbers with a grain of salt.


How much effect would the reflector or any lensing have on what you said?

Aside from that, your remark reminds me -- I do not see where Surefire tells what the Saint's emitter is, other than "a high-quality LED". I do not see that Carrot's review tells, either. Is there some way to tell? XR? XP-E? XP-G?

--MV


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## red02 (May 25, 2010)

The "high quality LED" probably just means its a 3 watt LED.

This is usually good reference; depends on the quality of the picture of course:
https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/270419

Given that surefire is not known for using bleeding-edge LEDs, and the 100lm for 1.5hrs figure on 1xcr123a, its most likely a high flux XRE. H30s are rated for 80lm for 2+hrs on a single cr123a and those are XREs...


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## rotncore (May 25, 2010)

Thanks all for this thread, I lurked for a few days and picked up a Minimus today. My ZL H50 wins for pure compactness, but with all the waterproofing questions, and my desire to standardize on Cr123s for all my lights, I figured why not. 

It is my favorite headlamp I've tried to date - while the beam is nice, the kicker for me is that it feels really solid when on my head. The head curved backplate and neoprene pad allow me to put it on tight, and jump around without the light shifting, while remaining really comfortable and feeling less front heavy. None of my Petzl's, Princeton, or the ZL have felt as secure. While if may not be a thrower (PT EOS is what I'd call thrower), I dislike the tunnel that throwing headlights produce forcing more head swiveling. If I need more light at a distance, I can take out my handheld backup.

By the way, from looking at it, it would be fairly easy to rig to a shoulder strap or belt, as there are some good channels in the backplate to run a ziptie or cordage through.


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## paulr (May 25, 2010)

MountainVoyageur said:


> How much effect would the reflector or any lensing have on what you said?
> 
> Aside from that, your remark reminds me -- I do not see where Surefire tells what the Saint's emitter is, other than "a high-quality LED". I do not see that Carrot's review tells, either. Is there some way to tell? XR? XP-E? XP-G?



Reflector and lens would not make that much different to lumen output (some, but not much). I think someone examined a Saint and found the led is an XRE. Surefire isn't into the "LED of the week" game like some of the smaller vendors though. They have in some cases been known to switch production to new leds as they become available, which means the lights they ship often outperform what their specifications (based on older leds) say. Lately they've been noisier about this, I guess in order to keep up with the competition. They used to just do the upgrades quietly. I just wouldn't worry about this too much. The power consumption and LED type probably tells you more about the output than the claimed lumen ratings do.


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## carrot (May 26, 2010)

It's definitely a Cree die based the way it looks, and almost certainly an XR-E given the timeframe the Saint seems to have been designed and built in.


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## paulr (May 26, 2010)

Carrot, what do you think of my idea of concocting a 1aa battery cap for the Saint Minimus? Does it look feasible?

Rotncore, what do you think of the Saint beam compared with the H50?


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## carrot (May 26, 2010)

paulr, I think it would be feasible except for the fact that the Saint seems to require more than 1.5v to run (2xAA in serial). The fact that the two AA's fit in the battery holder in parallel (!?) is seemingly a red herring.

I also just tested by putting a fresh Eneloop in the battery case and shorting the slot for the other battery. No luck. Sorry.


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## paulr (May 26, 2010)

carrot said:


> paulr, I think it would be feasible except for the fact that the Saint seems to require more than 1.5v to run (2xAA in serial). The fact that the two AA's fit in the battery holder in parallel (!?) is seemingly a red herring.



Oh, by "parallel" you just meant a side by side layout rather than electrically parallel. I think you should update your review to clarify that point. It makes sense though.

Note if the two AA slots really were in parallel, shorting out one slot would short out the other! If you're not sure about this and you have a voltmeter, can you check the connections?


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## Woods Walker (May 26, 2010)

Just wondering if the OP has picked his headlamp yet?


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## MountainVoyageur (May 26, 2010)

Woods Walker said:


> Just wondering if the OP has picked his headlamp yet?


Nope ... I want to see what the ZL H51 family looks like before deciding

--MV


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## paulr (May 26, 2010)

The H51 will look just like the H31 except a little longer and a little skinnier.


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## carrot (May 26, 2010)

paulr said:


> Oh, by "parallel" you just meant a side by side layout rather than electrically parallel. I think you should update your review to clarify that point. It makes sense though.
> 
> Note if the two AA slots really were in parallel, shorting out one slot would short out the other! If you're not sure about this and you have a voltmeter, can you check the connections?


I am absolutely certain that the AA batteries are in series, as the wiring can be viewed from the back side of the Saint's battery pack.


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## Vesper (May 27, 2010)

rotncore said:


> Thanks all for this thread, I lurked for a few days and picked up a Minimus today. My ZL H50 wins for pure compactness, but with all the waterproofing questions, and my desire to standardize on Cr123s for all my lights, I figured why not.
> 
> It is my favorite headlamp I've tried to date - while the beam is nice, the kicker for me is that it feels really solid when on my head. The head curved backplate and neoprene pad allow me to put it on tight, and jump around without the light shifting, while remaining really comfortable and feeling less front heavy. None of my Petzl's, Princeton, or the ZL have felt as secure. While if may not be a thrower (PT EOS is what I'd call thrower), I dislike the tunnel that throwing headlights produce forcing more head swiveling. If I need more light at a distance, I can take out my handheld backup.
> 
> By the way, from looking at it, it would be fairly easy to rig to a shoulder strap or belt, as there are some good channels in the backplate to run a ziptie or cordage through.



rotncore, thanks for this short review. I've been reading along hoping someone who just purchased a minimus would chime in. Appreciate it!


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## Stevie (May 28, 2010)

Great discussion. Really good read this, thank you.

I really like the sound of the Minimus, but the only thing that puts me off is the price. :sigh:

I tell you what else interests me for UL - the supposedly upcoming ZL H30 with the same LED as found in the H31. Although god knows how long we must wait for this. I think this could be a pretty versatile light, more versatile than the Minimus and also cheaper. 

I am speculating now, but if it's the same LED but without the reflector of H31, this is what it could do perhaps in terms of versatility:

220 Lumens / 120 Lumens of high power flood for difficult trail running.
43 Lumens / 24 Lumens for night hiking.
5 lumens and also the really LOW 0.5 lumens for in the tent and around camp without a hotspot.

You could clip it to your belt when hiking or running, and hang it up or clip it inside a tent when in camp. Although you could do this with the Minimus, it doesn't come with the accesories that allow you do this straight from the box.

If ZL do release this, I just reckon it would be a better deal than the Minimus due to the accessories that come with it. Not dissing the Minimus now, I am just saying that a high powered floody Zebralight is probably better value and more versatile. 

- 

On another note, I know that two lights goes against UL principles, but I can recommend the Olight T10 as a pocket thrower. It is small, unobtrusive and will light up a tree at 300 feet. I love mine, it rocks and is always in the pocket when out on the trail.

Thanks for the very interesting discussion.


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## BlueMarble (May 28, 2010)

carrot said:


> Have you also looked at the Quark + Prism? It is a pretty good option for a headlamp because you can also use it as a regular flashlight.



This is what I would look at. 4Sevens Quark with neutral or warm white emitter and the Quark Prism Kit. That is all you'll need. I use it all the time hiking in all kinds of conditions, including pouring rain, snow, you name it. The Prism Kit also has a diffuser lens that attaches on, and when you clip that on your belt or backpack it provides a very nice even glow for hiking down a trail or setting up camp and preparing meals in the dark. I like to refer to it as the Gandalf Effect


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## Woods Walker (Jun 5, 2010)

Stevie said:


> -
> 
> On another note, I know that two lights goes against UL principles, but I can recommend the Olight T10 as a pocket thrower. It is small, unobtrusive and will light up a tree at 300 feet. I love mine, it rocks and is always in the pocket when out on the trail.
> 
> Thanks for the very interesting discussion.


 
I pack two lights, a headlamp plus single cell flashlight and the Olight T10 has gone on the trail with me at times. It has some good throw for a smaller light. The only downside is too easy access to the strobe/SOS aka disco modes. I can also pack a T15 (1XAA) battery tube for almost nothing. This would let me use my headlamp's battery if it should fail.


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## Stevie (Jun 7, 2010)

Woods Walker said:


> I pack two lights, a headlamp plus single cell flashlight and the Olight T10 has gone on the trail with me at times. It has some good throw for a smaller light. The only downside is too easy access to the strobe/SOS aka disco modes. I can also pack a T15 (1XAA) battery tube for almost nothing. This would let me use my headlamp's battery if it should fail.


 
Yes, it doesn't take a lot of pressure on the T10 switch to send into disco mode. Having said that, I tend to keep my fingers well away from the switch when walking as the output is controlled by twisting the head as you know. 

That is a good idea using the T15 battery tube - must give you some great versatility when out in the woods regarding power source.

My only gripe with the T10 is that the UI is from high modes through to low modes. So if I am wandering with it on mid mode and then want to see further, I have to dial it down lower and lower and then blam - there's the 190 Lumen setting as we cycle back through to high. It would be nice if the T10 had the Fenix or Quark style UI so you could just twist the head to get max, see what you like and then un-twist back to your preferred walking setting. But can't have everything I suppose and this is such a great pocket thrower that I am prepared to overlook the UI issues. I love it's tiny size and the beam goes a hellava way for such a small light.

I took the T10 with me to my parents house at the weekend (I also EDC this light). My grandmother has trouble walking - we were making the small walk back from the local pub so I had the T10 shining at her feet so she could see her way while I supported her. When I first turned it on I hadn't realised it was in high mode and there were cries of "JESUS! THAT is one bright torch!". And after that, everybody wanted to have a go with it lighting up the fields behind the house. :laughing:

Anyway, sorry to go off course here - for UL backpacking I really like this light and it always goes with me. 

Cheers Steve


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## 5150Bronco (Jun 25, 2011)

This is absolutely one of the best discussions about this topic which is important for me. 

I am slowly getting into the ultralight backpacking thing and a new head lamp is what I need because unregulated tikka is not working out. 

I figure regulated is what I want and flood. 

Looks like I am down to choosing PT Remix pro or minimus. The minimus always seems to stay in my choices over the last month or so. 

Thanks everyone.


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## Plinko (Jun 25, 2011)

Plinko said:


> Tons of input so far, and most seem to be overshooting your target.
> 
> Here's my recommendation, based on lots of trail miles, peaks bagged, and gear whoring.
> 
> ...


 
Truth.


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## mossyoak (Jun 25, 2011)

Plinko said:


> Truth.


 
qouting your own post does nothing to make it more true, photon's are cool and all, but there are better backcountry options.


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## Plinko (Jun 26, 2011)

mossyoak said:


> photon's are cool and all, but there are better backcountry options.


 
Not if UL or SUL are you goal. There's scores of lights from which to chose, but with UL, the dominant philosophy is "less is more". Will an HID output more light? certainly, but it alone will weigh more than my loaded overnight pack. Just because you have a backpack with lashing points enough to carry the kitchen sink doesn't mean you need to haul it with you.

PS I sold my Hennessy 12 years ago after I realized the silliness of it for those who don't live in Florida, Costa Rica, Mexico, etc.


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## mossyoak (Jun 26, 2011)

Plinko said:


> Not if UL or SUL are you goal. There's scores of lights from which to chose, but with UL, the dominant philosophy is "less is more". Will an HID output more light? certainly, but it alone will weigh more than my loaded overnight pack. Just because you have a backpack with lashing points enough to carry the kitchen sink doesn't mean you need to haul it with you.
> 
> PS I sold my Hennessy 12 years ago after I realized the silliness of it for those who don't live in Florida, Costa Rica, Mexico, etc.


 
I run a ENO ProNest, with custom made straps. for lighting, I carry a zebralight h31 with one spare cell. I still even with that _super heavy_ light manage to come out with a really light pack. the weight I save typically gets used up by cigars. and whiskey.


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