# Luminus SBT-70 Announced



## LilKevin715

PDF Press release
New flashlight with SBT-70 announced

Looks interesting, can't wait to see the official specs.


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## mvyrmnd

A flashlight specific LED? Very cool.

If they could package it like the SST-90 then it would be stunning for things like P60 modules!


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## Th232

^That. While there're a lot more applications where space isn't such a concern, shrinking it down to the SST-90 package (SST-70 then?) would make it a lot more useable for flashlight manufacturers.


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## The_Driver

very interesting :naughty:


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## SemiMan

-----


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## BobBarker

This would fit well into the reflector for the XML... being that the XML has an approx diagonal dimension of 2.83mm vs the SBT-70's 3mm diameter. I wonder If this has about the same efficacy as the SST-90? This might be something that I'll have to look into for modding my V60C...


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## blasterman

Phlatlight's are enormously popular in mid to high end entertainment and theatrical lighting packages because you can pack insane lumen levels in a relatively small, monolithic package. At present I'm not sure if anybody is even competiting with Phlatlight in this arena. Array type LEDs don't work well because they don't project a uniform surface density, and their larger size means a corresponding increase in the optical package.

Most of the applications above require a hard 'cut-off' for beam aethestics, and it's simple geometry that you waste a lot more area doing this with a square shaped illumination source -vs- a round one. Smart idea to produce a round emitter. 

Let's hope we get a kick in the pants on the efficacy side.


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## yliu

I remember when I posted a thread about why all high power LEDs are squared, now finally a rounded one!! which means....

...no more squared beams with aspheric lenses:devil: (sometimes I'm quite picky about these kind of stuff)

By the way, I couldn't find any specs on this chip... Is it made to compete with the XML? How is the efficiency and the output?


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## TEEJ

yliu said:


> I remember when I posted a thread about why all high power LEDs are squared, now finally a rounded one!! which means....
> 
> ...no more squared beams with aspheric lenses:devil: (sometimes I'm quite picky about these kind of stuff)
> 
> By the way, I couldn't find any specs on this chip... Is it made to compete with the XML? How is the efficiency and the output?



“Optical architectures of high power entertainment fixtures are frequently defined by a
circular aperture, so using a traditional square LED was like putting a square peg into a
round hole,” said Don McDaniel, Global Marketing Director for Entertainment Lighting
at Luminus. “Our new round LED increases system-level efficiency by as much as 30%,
enabling our customers to use a single LED to replace a 250W HID lamp.”


According to Luminus President and CEO Keith T.S. Ward, “We made a decision to
invest significantly in R&D and operational infrastructure to revolutionize LED lighting
– making the round LED concept a reality. The importance of this innovation can’t be
overstated, and our customers are extremely excited.”

Luminus Media Contact:
Lynette Rowe, Marketing
Communications Manager
978-528-8057
[email protected]

The company’s first round LED product will be commercially available in Q3 this year.
Luminus is exhibiting in Hall 4.2, Stand G02 at Light + Building, April 15-20 at Messe
Frankfurt in Frankfurt, Germany, where its ground-breaking round Big Chip LEDs are on
display. In Europe, these will be available through EBV Elektronik. For more
information on how Luminus is enabling the conversion of today’s conventional lighting
fixtures to LED, visit www.luminus.com.


Luminus has more than 144
patents/patents pending worldwide, and its revolutionary Big Chip LED™ technology
enables new markets for solid-state lighting. Headquarters and wafer fab manufacturing
facilities are located near Boston, Massachusetts, U.S.A.


(Above quotes are from Luminus site)


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## jashhash

In my opinion a big chip is always a bad idea. A chip that produces as much light as a 250W MH lamp (20,000 Lumens) would tend to overheat like crazy. It's much better to use many small wattage LED's and space them out to spread the heat out over a large surface. Also round chips might not be a good idea since a large chunk of the silicon substrate would be lost when cutting the die. Even if you could cool this chip effectively you couldn't charge more than $80 to stay competitive with the street lighting market. Since I'm in the business of LED street lighting I can honestly say that I am his customer and that I'm not excited. That being said, I do think this LED would be ideally suited for an intense flashlight mod where price is no object and you wouldn't operate the die at max brightness for more than a couple minutes.


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## kaichu dento

jashhash said:


> In my opinion a big chip is always a bad idea. A chip that produces as much light as a 250W MH lamp (20,000 Lumens) would tend to overheat like crazy. It's much better to use many small wattage LED's and space them out to spread the heat out over a large surface. Also round chips might not be a good idea since a large chunk of the silicon substrate would be lost when cutting the die. Even if you could cool this chip effectively you couldn't charge more than $80 to stay competitive with the street lighting market. Since I'm in the business of LED street lighting I can honestly say that I am his customer and that I'm not excited. That being said, I do think this LED would be ideally suited for an intense flashlight mod where price is no object and you wouldn't operate the die at max brightness for more than a couple minutes.


This sounds like a great argument for showerhead lights! Why get an XR-E light when you can have dozens of 5mm cold blue emitters!


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## csshih

kaichu dento said:


> This sounds like a great argument for showerhead lights! Why get an XR-E light when you can have dozens of 5mm cold blue emitters!



IMO the main argument against T1-3/4 "5mm" emitters is that they are epoxy packages without heatsinking.
Now, properly cooled arrays of SMT Power LEDs on the other hand... 

Craig


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## bshanahan14rulz

Now, now, all LEDs were made for a purpose, or several. I'm sure we can agree that a streetlamp application of this LED would be silly, as would using 5mm LEDs as a projection lamp. 

I AM curious about what they do with the corners. Perhaps they go into lower priced "5mm" LEDs ;-)

Jashash is onto something when it comes to sheer power, but I think these LEDs are meant to be less about sheer power and more about optical control. 

Cutting corners is an inefficiency. Either the manufacturer takes the hit by ending up with weird shaped scraps, or the end design (and therefore, the end user) does, by wasting lumens on lighting up the backside of an aperture. Good on them, plus, it's exciting and new.


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## ma_sha1

Yeah! A new led to play!


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## Erik1213

For those of you that don't want to zoom in a hundred times on a PDF for a high quality emitter picture:


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## blasterman

> In my opinion a big chip is always a bad idea.



See my comments above.

The main market for the Luminous chips is not streetlights nor general lighting applications, and flashlights are just a periphery application. It's mostly theatrical / effect lighting / technical lighting, or other specialized lighting applications where you want a single monolithic chip where you plan on dumping insane amounts of amperage through it and likely have active cooling. A small chip, preferably a round one allows you to use a very compact optical package and it will be very efficient. Luminous products are about the last ones I'd choose for streetlights or general lighting because their efficiency is typically not very good. 

Martin lighting uses them in their high moving spots, along with Chauvet. The Chinese try to clone these lights, and instead use their 1watt based arrays, and the results are laughingly bad. The Intimidator 300s I have pictured below use a SST or CBT 90 driven at 60watts, and the results are signioficantly brighter than the 150watt discharge fixture on the right. The entire package including heatsink and optics is about the size of your hand. If you used an array based chip, aka Bridgelux, you could get the same lumens for about 40% less power, but your optics would be 4x the size and you'd be projecting a bunch of LED chips on the wall -vs- a smooth cone of light. The new chip would make this particualt light that much brighter, so it's a perfect application for what Luminous is doing.


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## bose301s

Very dumb design, will be expensive and hard to manufacture and will end up with a lot of unusable waste.


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## kaichu dento

Good thing you know more than the manufacturer - maybe you can get a job with them and set them on the right path.

Naysayers - always in the way of progress.


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## Th232

bose301s said:


> Very dumb design, will be expensive and hard to manufacture and will end up with a lot of unusable waste.



Please elaborate?

Given that they've got the CST-90 and CSM-360 in what is essentially the same type of package, I doubt they'd have continued to use it for this new chip if it was that dumb a design.


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## bshanahan14rulz

bose301s said:


> Very dumb design


Yeah, they should have made it unicorn-shaped!


bose301s said:


> will be expensive


Save up ;-)


bose301s said:


> and hard to manufacture


As most good LEDs are.


bose301s said:


> and will end up with a lot of unusable waste.


Don't have anything witty to say here. That's probably part of the secret sauce is how they can do this without being too wasteful.


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## bose301s

You know why LEDs are square? Because it's easy to cut them from the wafer that way. Try cutting a circle with a circular saw, not easy to do, that's what dicing saws are. Also, with square die they all touch each other and you just cut little lines to separate them. With a circle you have 4 infinitely small points that touch adjoining die with an unusable cross shape of material between the 4 adjoining die that is useless, this means waste. So to sum up, cutting circular die requires special tools, it wastes material and will thus be more expensive.


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## bose301s

kaichu dento said:


> Good thing you know more than the manufacturer - maybe you can get a job with them and set them on the right path.
> 
> Naysayers - always in the way of progress.


Don't need a job with them, already make better LEDs where I am at.


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## blasterman

Then do explain why Martin lighting, Chauvet, etc don't use *your* LED's then. Or, are they stupid as well?


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## bose301s

blasterman said:


> Then do explain why Martin lighting, Chauvet, etc don't use *your* LED's then. Or, are they stupid as well?


Many companies use our LEDs, more than use Luminus by far.


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## bshanahan14rulz

bose301s said:


> You know why LEDs are square? Because it's easy to cut them from the wafer that way. Try cutting a circle with a circular saw, not easy to do, that's what dicing saws are. Also, with square die they all touch each other and you just cut little lines to separate them. With a circle you have 4 infinitely small points that touch adjoining die with an unusable cross shape of material between the 4 adjoining die that is useless, this means waste. So to sum up, cutting circular die requires special tools, it wastes material and will thus be more expensive.



You're just jealous because Luminous has a sector of the market that Cree doesn't ;-P

And yes, I did know all that, but thanks for the refresher in basic geometry.


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## bose301s

bshanahan14rulz said:


> I regret replying to bose301s. He's a troll.


Not so much actually.


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## blasterman

Trolls have better taste in speakers


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## bose301s

blasterman said:


> Trolls have better taste in speakers


I don't use bose anymore, I stay far away from them. My taste in speakers has evolved into Bowers & Wilkins and similar now.


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## kaichu dento

bose301s said:


> You know why LEDs are square? Because it's easy to cut them from the wafer that way. Try cutting a circle with a circular saw, not easy to do, that's what dicing saws are. Also, with square die they all touch each other and you just cut little lines to separate them. With a circle you have 4 infinitely small points that touch adjoining die with an unusable cross shape of material between the 4 adjoining die that is useless, this means waste. So to sum up, cutting circular die requires special tools, it wastes material and will thus be more expensive.


Hey, next you could contact Data and explain to him about the wastefulness of cutting away all that titanium when he makes 007's and Tri-V's. 
Just imagine all the heat-sinking of that huge square chunk of titanium.

Your posts have no merit and you are a shill/troll trying to throw Saul Alinsky attacks at your competitor.


bose301s said:


> Don't need a job with them, already make better LEDs where I am at.


This right here explains everything that needs to be known about your posts in this thread. Let's go back to a more positive tack in this thread, and save the "my company's LED is better than the other company's LED" if you don't mind.

On an unrelated note, I had some Bose 301's at one time - glad they're gone, but your user name brings back the memories.


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## blasterman

> Many companies use our LEDs, more than use Luminus by far.



Really? Your company produces a 9mm LED that can take 9amps?

Have a link? If not, why are you here?


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## bose301s

blasterman said:


> Really? Your company produces a 9mm LED that can take 9amps?
> 
> Have a link? If not, why are you here?


Since when were size and amperage the #1 factors in LEDs? Pretty sure efficacy and efficiency are valued about that.

We have an LED that is 2mm x 2mm and take 3 amps though.


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## mvyrmnd

I think it's put up or shut up time. Exactly where do you work bose301s?

Regardless of cost or wastefulness, They have clearly decided there are benefits to a round die, and have produced one.

If the consumers decide the benefits outweigh the costs, then it will be a success. If not, then not. Time will tell.

While you are welcome to your opinion, you're equally welcome to vote with your wallet. I will be voting with mine.


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## bose301s

mvyrmnd said:


> I think it's put up or shut up time. Exactly where do you work bose301?


That last one should have given it away, also makes 1000 lumens.


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## mvyrmnd

bose301s said:


> That last one should have given it away, also makes 1000 lumens.



I can guess, but you didn't answer my question.


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## kaichu dento

mvyrmnd said:


> I can guess, but you didn't answer my question.


Not only did he not answer your question, he's completely derailed a thread that is about an emitter made by his competitors and I think it amounts to trolling at the very least.

This thread is not about anything other than the Luminus SBT-70 and all envious competitors need to start their own threads rather than trying to shut this one down.


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## csshih

I would love to see this LED put into an aspherical light. too bad luminous charges such a premium.

Craig


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## Hoop

blasterman said:


> Really? Your company produces a 9mm LED that can take 9amps?
> 
> Have a link? If not, why are you here?



Actually, Luminus makes a 9mm LED that can handle 13.5 amps. Well, a module anyways.


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## blasterman

_



Since when were size and amperage the #1 factors in LEDs?

Click to expand...


_Since....those are the engineering parameters of the customers buying Luminous chips because they can't use multip chip emitters because of uniformity/optical issues, and 2,500 or more lumens are mandatory to compete with discharge..* This is the third time I've stated this in this thread*, so you obviously have a reading disorder, or are distracted by the stomps of billy goats on your roof.

The Martin MAC 350 uses *7* CBT-90's, and by using the SBT-70 they can probably cut the number of emitters used in newer models down to no more than 4. Matter of fact, I woulnd't doubt that Luminous specifically designed the SBT-70 on behalf of companies like Martin.


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## bose301s

Well, the MT-G2 produces more lumens in a smaller package using less power.

On that end though, do you really want to argue that Luminus products are used in more lighting application than Cree is? If so you'll fail big time. Luminus is a small, niche player in a niche market, they're good at what they do but at a different level.


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## kaichu dento

bose301s said:


> Well, the MT-G2 produces more lumens in a smaller package using less power.
> 
> On that end though, do you really want to argue that Luminus products are used in more lighting application than Cree is? If so you'll fail big time. Luminus is a small, niche player in a niche market, they're good at what they do but at a different level.


If you are the face of Cree then I'm glad to see other manufacturers coming out with products for us who no longer will want to buy your emitters.

Samsung is coming on the scene and already sweeping CPF is a strong show of support for Nichia. These petty postings by you in this thread gives me the first feeling I've ever had of no longer wanting to buy Cree products. By the way, does your boss know you're giving their company this kind of PR?


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## blasterman

At last check there were no hard data sheets for the MT-G2 I could find, but what is known is that it is likely a multi-chip emitter making it's inclusion into this thread irrelevant because it's not useable in the applications that Luminous chips are. I would explain why but you seem to replying from a distortion field of your own creation. Given the niche' player has their LED's used in $6,000 moving heads but not in $15 LED bulbs sold on E-bay from Chinese store-fronts I'd give Luminous a bit more respect.

I've also not seen hard numbers on the sales of Crees multi-chip arrays, other than hearing a lot of rumours that they are pretty lousy. Might be because they often cost 2x as much as competitors like Bridgelux per equivelant lumen while having only minor improvements in efficacy.


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## mvyrmnd

Someone should anonymously email a link to this thread to cree's PR department 

Kaichu makes a good point... Every person who cares about the quality of the light coming from their flashlight is fitting Nichia 219's.

Even though every flashlight I own is currently using the 90-CRI XP-G, from now on they'll probably be Nichia based - unless Cree can pull their finger out and produce a proper High-CRI XM-L and not that dodgy high Vf multi-die monstrosity they have now.


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## bose301s

kaichu dento said:


> If you are the face of Cree then I'm glad to see other manufacturers coming out with products for us who no longer will want to buy your emitters.
> 
> Samsung is coming on the scene and already sweeping CPF is a strong show of support for Nichia. These petty postings by you in this thread gives me the first feeling I've ever had of no longer wanting to buy Cree products. By the way, does your boss know you're giving their company this kind of PR?


That wasn't meant to be petty, it's true, Luminus' products are much more of a niche product, they don't have a lot of different things to fill a lot of markets, they concentrate on big single chips and get that market, they definitely know what they are doing as they are pretty much the only ones in that market.


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## bose301s

blasterman said:


> At last check there were no hard data sheets for the MT-G2 I could find, but what is known is that it is likely a multi-chip emitter making it's inclusion into this thread irrelevant because it's not useable in the applications that Luminous chips are. I would explain why but you seem to replying from a distortion field of your own creation. Given the niche' player has their LED's used in $6,000 moving heads but not in $15 LED bulbs sold on E-bay from Chinese store-fronts I'd give Luminous a bit more respect.
> 
> I've also not seen hard numbers on the sales of Crees multi-chip arrays, other than hearing a lot of rumours that they are pretty lousy. Might be because they often cost 2x as much as competitors like Bridgelux per equivelant lumen while having only minor improvements in efficacy.





mvyrmnd said:


> Someone should anonymously email a link to this thread to cree's PR department
> 
> Kaichu makes a good point... Every person who cares about the quality of the light coming from their flashlight is fitting Nichia 219's.
> 
> Even though every flashlight I own is currently using the 90-CRI XP-G, from now on they'll probably be Nichia based - unless Cree can pull their finger out and produce a proper High-CRI XM-L and not that dodgy high Vf multi-die monstrosity they have now.



I don't know why we don't make higher CRI single chips but I can guess. For all of our fixtures and things we use our TrueWhite technology which uses white LEDs in combination with red LEDs and a sensor that adjusts the mixture of the 2 which then goes through a lens that mixes/blends the light for a uniform color output. I think our goal is to try and license this tech to others and sell it in out modules as a lot of them employ this as well. You can get as high of a CRI as the Nichia chips then, but obviously it costs more so it would make us more money. I do wish we had high CRI components like the Nichia 219 though.


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## bose301s

I will also apologize and say I could have been more tactful in this thread. I don't mean to put Luminus down, they make a good product. I am just really enthusiastic about what I do and the products we make. It is a very cool industry and a very cool product and I love being involved with it. If people have questions about stuff, how the process works etc. I would be happy to answer them. Also, please don't hold this against me, like I said, just came off wrong due to enthusiasm etc.


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## csshih

bose301s said:


> I will also apologize and say I could have been more tactful in this thread. I don't mean to put Luminus down, they make a good product. I am just really enthusiastic about what I do and the products we make. It is a very cool industry and a very cool product and I love being involved with it. If people have questions about stuff, how the process works etc. I would be happy to answer them. Also, please don't hold this against me, like I said, just came off wrong due to enthusiasm etc.



All is well. We all tend to get carried away at times. 

Cree, Luminous, Nichia, Seoul Semiconducter, Osram, Philips. Oh, all the cool choices.

Craig


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## mvyrmnd

csshih said:


> Cree, Luminous, Nichia, Seoul Semiconducter, Osram, Philips. Oh, all the cool choices.
> 
> Craig



Or neutral, or warm. Whatever floats your boat.


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## csshih

mvyrmnd said:


> Or neutral, or warm. Whatever floats your boat.



Neutral High CRI please. 

Craig


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## Silgt

lovecpf


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## jashhash

Inappropriate place for this post. Use PM's. Post saved for record.

Bill


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## Bullzeyebill

csshih said:


> All is well. We all tend to get carried away at times.
> 
> Cree, Luminous, Nichia, Seoul Semiconducter, Osram, Philips. Oh, all the cool choices.
> 
> Craig



Good, glad you guys worked the disagreements out, without Mod intervention.

Bill


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## Epsilon

I've been scouting the regular suppliers and the luminus site for more info or even supply of these new LEDs. Has anyone been lucky and has already acquired one of these babies ?


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## blasterman

Yeah, nothing on the Luminous site about the chip. Chauvet has released some new fixtures based on a 75watt / 17amp chip, but it's not specific as to what type. I suspect it's the one.


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## Epsilon

blasterman said:


> Yeah, nothing on the Luminous site about the chip. Chauvet has released some new fixtures based on a 75watt / 17amp chip, but it's not specific as to what type. I suspect it's the one.


In the PDF press release, it says that the lighting products will become available in Q3 of this year, which begins around now . 17amps is a lot for, what I suspect is a 7mm2​ LED. The CBT-90 (at the top of my head) is specced to 13.5A. But with the copper core board technology, overdriving is allways possible.

I hope it is specced to ~10A, whould be nice in high powered flashlinhts .


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## kj2

"review R & J RJ-T9C" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i_veu5ZB5vU


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## Epsilon

Nice beam pattern, looking forward to this one .


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## Blitzwing

Yeah, looks good for my needs.


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## saabluster

Thought you might like this close up I just took of the SBT-70. 






It appears they manufacture the chips as normal and then ablate the excess active region.

Just wait until you guys get a load of the CBT-140. That will be a powerhouse for sure.


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## fyrstormer

I can see how the circular LED could end up with a lot of waste UNLESS the dies are cut from a rod instead of from a wafer. However, if a wafer is used, a hexagonal die would have comparable optical properties to a circular die, but with zero wasted wafer area.


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## Glenn7

saabluster said:


> Just wait until you guys get a load of the CBT-140. That will be a powerhouse for sure.



CBT-140 don't have white, only RGB - unless I'm missing something?


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## saabluster

fyrstormer said:


> I can see how the circular LED could end up with a lot of waste UNLESS the dies are cut from a rod instead of from a wafer. However, if a wafer is used, a hexagonal die would have comparable optical properties to a circular die, but with zero wasted wafer area.



They would never do that. More cost effective to use large wafers and remove the unwanted portion than to create tiny wafers that would need all new machines to process and then have tiny yields. In fact that is a crazy bad idea. No offense meant. The hexagonal idea? Well sure you could do that. But I believe the processes to do that are covered by patents from another company and wouldn't necessarily be as good optically for certain applications. 



Glenn7 said:


> CBT-140 don't have white, only RGB - unless I'm missing something?



You are thinking of the CBT-40. I said CBT-*140*. Very different animal. The CBT-140 is to my knowledge the largest monolithic die yet capable of drive current over 27A! Think of it as a grown-up version of the SBT-70.


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## Glenn7

Oooops learn to read glenn! ;0) 

So are you going to make me a DEFT CBT-140 huh! can you huh?


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## saabluster

Glenn7 said:


> Oooops learn to read glenn! ;0)
> 
> So are you going to make me a DEFT CBT-140 huh! can you huh?


We shall see. 







This next image is processed slightly to enhance contrast.





You can clearly see that the active region extends to the corners of the device. Unclear in this is whether or not the area under the gold layer is active as well. If so that seems like a massive waste of power unless there is some waveguiding and subsequent escape of the light into the phosphor.


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## Glenn7

saabluster said:


> We shall see.



Ahah!! that's not a no......and I can see its mounted on a heatsink ready to go - first dibs     But no pressure Micheal :naughty:

She's going to need a few good batteries to pump in 27A to make it shine.


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## ma_sha1

Wavien got SBT70 for sale already in their collar, 
http://www.wavien.com/shop/luminus/sbt-70-rlt/

Thinking about getting one but Not sure if they really have it in stock? picture looks like a drawing of circle to represent the round die?


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## fyrstormer

saabluster said:


> They would never do that. More cost effective to use large wafers and remove the unwanted portion than to create tiny wafers that would need all new machines to process and then have tiny yields. In fact that is a crazy bad idea. No offense meant.


No offense taken. It is doable, however, which means that eventually someone will do it. In fact someone may already be doing it. There may well be applications where the benefits of true round dies cut from thin rods are worth the associated costs. If not now, then it might still happen eventually, as current die-manufacturing technology is borrowed from microprocessor foundries where the funky optical properties of a square die in a round reflector are completely irrelevant.


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## bshanahan14rulz

I was gonna say shame on you for only posting a teaser image, but then I clicked on over to page 3. Very very interesting! I think somehow they nil'd the active layer. I can't imagine it being a very good idea to just slather some gold on top to block out all but a circle...


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## monkeyboy

That's a different product (but based on the same die)





ma_sha1 said:


> Wavien got SBT70 for sale already in their collar,
> http://www.wavien.com/shop/luminus/sbt-70-rlt/
> 
> Thinking about getting one but Not sure if they really have it in stock? picture looks like a drawing of circle to represent the round die?


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## SemiMan

fyrstormer said:


> No offense taken. It is doable, however, which means that eventually someone will do it. In fact someone may already be doing it. There may well be applications where the benefits of true round dies cut from thin rods are worth the associated costs. If not now, then it might still happen eventually, as current die-manufacturing technology is borrowed from microprocessor foundries where the funky optical properties of a square die in a round reflector are completely irrelevant.



- well other than the fact you are normally processing hundreds if not thousands of die at once to reduce cost
- if you ignore thermal issues near the edges of the die
- etc.

Just because something can be done, does not mean it will be done. I won't say never though.


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## blasterman

> There may well be applications where the benefits of true round dies cut from thin rods are worth the associated costs.


See the applications at the beginning of this thread where current square dies are being used.


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## fyrstormer

The replies to my post suggest a lack of basic reading comprehension. I never said there wouldn't be unique engineering and manufacturing constraints with round-die emitters, or that the cost wouldn't be higher. I said there may be applications where the benefits are worth dealing with those unique constraints and additional costs.


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## saabluster

fyrstormer said:


> The replies to my post suggest a lack of basic reading comprehension. I never said there wouldn't be unique engineering and manufacturing constraints with round-die emitters, or that the cost wouldn't be higher. I said there may be applications where the benefits are worth dealing with those unique constraints and additional costs.



Well I could say the same fyrstormer. It is clear to me you do not understand the significance of what I wrote or the LED making business. Yes it _can_ be done but the *astronomical cost* means it simply will _not_ be done. I am not one prone to making very absolute comments around here so maybe my "never" comment was a bit too extreme. So instead I will say it is very very *very* unlikely regardless of the application*. Seriously. What exotic application can you think of that could provide enough volume to prevent the end product from being thousands of dollars per device? How would said device be better than a simple ablation of unwanted die area resulting in an equally round active area? 






*I say this with one caveat. I can see some university lab doing something like this just to see what's possible but that's it about it.


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## IMSabbel

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## IMSabbel

I am not as hesitating as saabluster.
This is one of the very very view areas that I will definitively say: It will NEVER happen. 

Seriously, the idea of using a thing rod (<1cm) for making cicular leds is ridiculous on several levels.

1. Each led size would require a whole substrate handling toolchain. Something like that can cost dozends of millions. (Not to mention that handling tiny weeny wavers would suck in general)
2. Serialization of fabrication: Each step would need to be done for each led indiviudally, instead of 100s of leds in one go.

1+2 would mean that the fabrication would be extremely expensive (even in mass production environment, 100s of $ per device. The idea of it being cheaper than losing 20-30% of the substrate area due to cutting away is ludicrious.

But thats not really the KO-criterium. What is is:

3. THere is a reason you never use the outermost regions of substrates. Any bulbs being grown drop in quality to the edges. Making very thin rods would only increase the issues with the crystal quality. The whole idea of "not needing to mill it into a round shape" depends on using the whole substrate up to the outermost um, which will certainly end up in failure (as edge effects will also not help with any of the more esoteric steps of fabrication). To even in the best case, you would need to trip the outermost edges anyway - which totally kills the whole "no milling/cutting" concept.

Any led made that way would certainly have MUCH worse performance characteristics than a normally created one, so even in a university setting I could only imagine it as a proof of non-viability


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## RCantor

OK but getting back to the SBT-70 

Anyone know how its surface brightness compares to the XR-E and how many lumens per watt and what the Vf is (approximately) and have a Lm @ whatever amp and over driving graph? Or a link? Thanks!


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## Blitzwing

They don't seem to have appeared in many flashlights yet - correct?

I'd love to see one in the likes of the Crelant 7G5, Solarforce Pro-1 etc and driven hard from a pair of 18650's.


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## IMSabbel

saabluster said:


> We shall see.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You can clearly see that the active region extends to the corners of the device. Unclear in this is whether or not the area under the gold layer is active as well. If so that seems like a massive waste of power unless there is some waveguiding and subsequent escape of the light into the phosphor.



Hm. Looking at that picture I wonder... It really does not look as if the active region extends to the edge. The blue glow just seems to be too weak. 

Is it possible that what you see at the edges is just an effect light going sideways through passive substrate and just coupling out at the edges?


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## Epsilon

And they show up in the stores 

The SBT version first. Maybe the cbt version will come in the near future .

Avnet (hope this works, but it's worth the try):
https://avnetexpress.avnet.com/stor...m=sbt70&N=0&Ne=100000&action=products&x=0&y=0
No stock and data yet

Mouser (this will probably work):
http://www2.mouser.com/Search/Refine.aspx?Keyword=sbt70
stock and prices. 

Datasheet: 
http://www.mouser.com/catalog/specsheets/PDS-002014_Rev 0X_SBT-70 Production Specification.pdf
up to ~1650lumen for cool white
up to ~1350lumen for 90CRI
up to ~ 900lumen for 95CRI


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## Gunner12

Hum, efficiency doesn't seem too amazing at 10 A, ~40 lumen per watt max. Surface brightness seems to be ~240 lumen per mm assuming the best of the best (top bin 70 CRI cool white). There is no dome to decrease the apparent surface brightness though, so that's a plus for throw.

The 90 CRI at higher color temperatures does look nice.


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## landries

where to find a driver for this led?


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## LilKevin715

Just a quick update it appears Olight will be coming out with a new light featuring this emitter. The new model is called the SR95S UT, some preliminary details of the light can be found on batteryjunction's site.


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## IMSabbel

OK, the efficiency of this LED is SO BAD that it seems I have been wrong - it really only makes sense if this is a full substrate, and the circle is formed by electroplating those contracts on top to shadow the edges of the die.


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## Fresh Light

Here is part of the SBT70 Binning Chart


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## saabluster

IMSabbel said:


> OK, the efficiency of this LED is SO BAD that it seems I have been wrong - it really only makes sense if this is a full substrate, and the circle is formed by electroplating those contracts on top to shadow the edges of the die.



Indeed. I figured as much. It is to be sure a less than elegant solution. And that is about the kindest thing as I can say about it. They clearly could have ablated the active region underneath the gold pad and had a thin gold current spreader run along the side there instead of that massive block. 

I saw someone is coming out with a flashlight using this LED. :fail: After fully testing this LED in different setups I wouldn't let this anywhere near something bearing my name.


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## Fresh Light

saabluster said:


> Indeed. I figured as much. It is to be sure a less than elegant solution. And that min is about the kindest thing as I can say about it. They clearly could have ablated the active region underneath the gold pad and had a thin gold current spreader run along the side there instead of that massive block.
> 
> I saw someone is coming out with a flashlight using this LED. :fail: After fully testing this LED in different setups I wouldn't let this anywhere near something bearing my name.



But since this will be available in the NA flux bin in about a week, won't it have even better throw since 1710 lumens/ 70mm2 ​= 24.4 lumens per square mm @10.5A vs a top available bin MB SBT90 at a max of 17.7 lumens per square mm @ 9A?

I don't know they directly compare since the currents are different. But I see the availability of better CRI, 75 vs 70, and 90 and 95 as a good thing. None of the LEDs from luminus have been really that efficient but Cree hasn't made a SBT competitor.


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## langham

Have any of you thought about making a small insert with a 12v computer fan that could be placed between the body and the head of an SR90/95 to keep it cooler and allow you to run it closer to the before mentioned 60W mark? It seems like to me the new SR-95 head would take quite well to a forced circulation system that drew suction from the battery compartment area, and lets face it an extra few centimeters is not going to deter people from that monster. Seems like to me that Luminous is the muscle car of the led world, who cares about its overall performance or waist as long as it puts out a lot of light and looks pretty.


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## desert.snake

langham said:


> Have any of you thought about making a small insert with a 12v computer fan that could be placed between the body and the head of an SR90/95 to keep it cooler and allow you to run it closer to the before mentioned 60W mark? It seems like to me the new SR-95 head would take quite well to a forced circulation system that drew suction from the battery compartment area, and lets face it an extra few centimeters is not going to deter people from that monster. Seems like to me that Luminous is the muscle car of the led world, who cares about its overall performance or waist as long as it puts out a lot of light and looks pretty.



Rather Brutus




In fact, they are good in their specialized fields of application. They have an excellent temperature sensor next to the crystal, they can be quickly adjusted and saved from overheating.


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