# Eaton Compressor arrived ...



## wquiles

June 25, 2009 EDIT: Eaton replaced the damaged compressor and sent me a new one (no additional cost to me) - you can see the new one here:
https://www.candlepowerforums.com/posts/2994385&postcount=44

As far as I am concerned, Eaton Compressor's customer support is EXCELLENT 

Will

****************************************************************************************************************************
I just took delivery of my new Eaton Compressor, and unfortunately it was not even close to perfect. I am sure Eaton will work with me to make this right, but I am not too happy at the moment.

Now, for point of reference, this is my old and very noisy compressor:







and that my friends is the tiny pump on this thing!:






the very fast 3450 RPM OEM motor (note there is no HP rating!):







Now, this is the new Eaton compressor that I just got today:
















Of course, this is minor, but one of the plastic handles broke - I am not worried about this. This is the one is not broken:





this is the broken one:






One of the metal legs was bent (not quite broken). Not good, but not terrible either:







Now, the 120V AC cable was pinched at two places, and in one of those pinch places it was actually cut:






There was no security key available to open the covers either - I expected that to be sent along. I use pliers to turn the key open, and this was the only documentation/parts that I found:






Then I noted that most all of the wires were loose - it looks like no-one checked the unit before being sent. Even if the external AC wire would have been in good order, inside it was actually DANGEROUS, and with no documentation as to how to wire it properly. Right now I don't have any information as to how to even correct these wiring problems!:

















The other side had the cover of the regulator loose:






and I even found extra crimp and pieces on the inside, some new, some just debris:











Now, don't get me wrong. The actual pump is very large for the air/pressure generated, and it is a V twin piston design. The motor is very large and stout-looking. The overall housing/package is awesome. It just looks like a simple quality hiccup. I am 110% sure Eaton will make this right for me 

Stay tuned for updates ...

Will


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## 65535

Nice looking unit I dig the sound casing.
That's a shame and upsetting about all the wiring, it's just not right. 

I had a number of issues with my Craftsman, the first one had a crooked motor by about 20 degrees. 

The second does too but not as bad, and getting a new motor. A fair few air leaks, just a pita but nothing I didn't fix.


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## Vinniec5

Should've filed a carrier damage complaint and documented it on the bill of lading. Was that compressor banded to the pallet when the driver brought it to you or did he cut it off when he dropped it to you? Looks to me that a Hi-Lo kissed it with the blade or the band broke when they moved it and it fell over. I'd file a carrier claim ASAP and let the two companies ***** at eachother you bought a new compressor not a kit you have to fix to make it work


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## Aircraft800

Where is the tank? I can't see it in the pictures. Is it burried behind the sound barriers?


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## wquiles

An update. I sent a nice email with lots of photos to the Eaton sales/technical person who took my order, and he called me back stating that he was not happy either, and that he was sending me another brand new unit again. Talk about nice service!


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## wquiles

65535 said:


> Nice looking unit I dig the sound casing.
> That's a shame and upsetting about all the wiring, it's just not right.
> 
> I had a number of issues with my Craftsman, the first one had a crooked motor by about 20 degrees.
> 
> The second does too but not as bad, and getting a new motor. A fair few air leaks, just a pita but nothing I didn't fix.


The sound casing and the whole construction, paint, etc. is truly amazing. The motor/pump "module" is actually suspended by heavy springs to prevent transmission of vibration to the floor. Except for the snafu on the wiring part, the compressor is really unique, and with a 5-yr warranty, on a device designed to run for 8 hours a day 5 days a week on a dentist office, it should really last a long time for how I use it.





Aircraft800 said:


> Where is the tank? I can't see it in the pictures. Is it burried behind the sound barriers?


There is none, since it does not come with a tank. You can use any tank you want. In my case, I am (for now) using the 20 gal tank from my current compressor. If I can find/snag a nice 60/80 gallon tank in the future, I can always upgrade that part of the system


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## cmacclel

Looks like it would be a nice unit......that wiring is 100% unacceptable and don't see how the internal wiring could have been damaged in shipping. Whats a compressor like that go for 


EDIT

$2600 Retail on sale for $799 Hmmmm I want a quite compressor in a BAD way! Where are the Motor Specs??? Amps?? 220V right?


Mac


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## choffman

wquiles said:


> he called me back stating that he was not happy either, and that he was sending me another brand new unit again. Talk about nice service!




I sure am glad to read that. I was starting to get pissed off and I haven't spent a penny. Glad to hear they are gonna do you right.


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## StrikerDown

This might not be worth the trip but not losing floor space to a tank is kinda cool.

I had a friend who used about 8 or 10, 10' sticks of PVC pipe in the attic space over his garage all hooked together to form an air resevoir. I don't remember if they were 3 or 4" diameter but it gave him a bunch of air storage capacity while using zero floor space. He also put pvc drops down the walls in a few locations where they would be handy for jobs around the garage. It was heavy wall stuff I think it was rated for at least 250 PSI.

I wonder how many gallons of storage you get in a 4" X 10' stick times how ever many sticks you can stick up there?


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## precisionworks

> PVC pipe ... to form an air reservoir


PVC pipe is meant for lower pressure applications, and it degrades with exposure to heat & light. When it gets weak enough, a small impact may cause the pipe to shatter, and the shards will penetrate plywood.

Chem-Aire ABS pipe is pressure approved, but expensive:

http://www.nibco.com/assets/ChmairOvrw.pdf


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## StrikerDown

precisionworks said:


> PVC pipe is meant for lower pressure applications, and it degrades with exposure to heat & light. When it gets weak enough, a small impact may cause the pipe to shatter, and the shards will penetrate plywood.
> 
> Chem-Aire ABS pipe is pressure approved, but expensive:
> 
> http://www.nibco.com/assets/ChmairOvrw.pdf




I guess it isn't worth the trip then 

I better give him a call to see if he has been fraged yet. He's had it in use for over ten years if I iirc.


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## precisionworks

> He's had it in use for over ten years


It can last a long time before exploding ... one pipe in out factory was 15 years old when it let go. There was no one in the room at that time, so the only damage was shrapnel that went through the drywall. I keep the main regulator output at only 60 psi for the entire factory - at 125 psi, or the 175 psi cutout pressure, results would have been more interesting.

If you Google pvc compressed air accidents, you'll find thousands of examples why this is a bad idea. But it's cheap, which is reason enough for lots of people to continue to use it, no matter how unsafe.

FWIW, all the piping in my shop is black pipe. Probably 200' or more. Not cheap, a PITA to install, and rock solid safe.


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## Vinniec5

I give the company credit for seeing things from the customers side. good of them to send you a new one with no problems


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## Vinniec5

BTW there's just something about plastic and glue that just doesn't scream SAFETY. My shops didn't and I wouldn't install it in my house but if others want to it's up to you just be CAREFUL with the pressures it's like having air bangalore torpedoes over your head. Yes id like the room the my tank takes up but not that badly


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## PEU

Have compressor, why not make a vacuum pump to hold thing in place instead of using clamping kits?

http://www.joewoodworker.com/veneering/v2-about.htm 

I just needed an excuse to post that link, very interesting stuff in there 


Pablo


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## mdocod

precisionworks said:


> PVC pipe is meant for lower pressure applications, and it degrades with exposure to heat & light. When it gets weak enough, a small impact may cause the pipe to shatter, and the shards will penetrate plywood.
> 
> Chem-Aire ABS pipe is pressure approved, but expensive:
> 
> http://www.nibco.com/assets/ChmairOvrw.pdf



Thank You for the heads up on this! We were thinking about doing a similar setup in the garage, thinking we usually set the tank at ~140PSI and regulate to ~90-100 for most stuff. 

Strange that PVC would be "rated" for these high pressured but not actually be suitable for use at those pressure ratings...

Schedule 40 PVC in 2.5" diameter is rated ~180PSI.
Schedule 80 PVC in 2.5" diameter is rated ~250PSI. 

Burst pressure ratings are actually ~5X those numbers. 

Like you said though, with age, these numbers probably fall apart.


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## 65535

PVC is predominately used for covered water piping. Generally the pressures are well under 100 psi. A water pipe doesn't tend to explode quite like gas piping. Like an air tank the air keeps expanding rapidly as an explosion shooting shrapnel, water doesn't decompress or expand appreciably so it just makes a wet mess.


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## wquiles

Well guys, the new compressor has been shipped to me, and now I have the tracking # for the new package 

As an interesting side note, I asked the Eaton technical person handling my return about the possibility of doing an "upgrade" to this unit in case I ever needed/wanted more CFM out of this compressor, and he verified that their 13CFM pump would fit (it is not possible to simply increase the RPM on this oil-less pump):
http://www.eatoncompressor.com/catalog/item/518643/191066.htm

Of course, it would not be as "quiet" as the one I have now, but it would not be much louder given the pump runs at low RPM, and that the enclosure does a good job with the noise. I can keep the same motor/wiring/everything, and the solid steel enclosure has plenty of space to fit the 13CFM pump - all for about $150 plus shipping (maybe a total of $200) :thumbsup:

It was obvious talking to him that the "key" problem for Dental use is that the pump has to be oil-less -> the air delivery can't have any oil traces, which makes perfect sense for a Dental office/use. For me, it makes no difference, as I just want something fairly quiet that I can run at night without bothering my neighbors. I guess I will have to wait to get the new one running, using it for a while, and then determining if I want/need the upgrade. At least I do have that path 

Will


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## 65535

You may find the 13CFM oil bath compressor pump to be quieter, oil has a great dampening effect, just like in a lathe. Just make sure you get the proper pulley ratio so you don't burn out your motor.


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## wquiles

65535 said:


> You may find the 13CFM oil bath compressor pump to be quieter, oil has a great dampening effect, just like in a lathe. Just make sure you get the proper pulley ratio so you don't burn out your motor.



Thanks dude - I did not think about that. It might be that the whole reason they "had" to build the steel, sound dampened enclosure was because the oil-less pump is noisy to start with. 

Wouldn't it would be awesome if by making the change to the oil-libricated 13CFM pump I would gain more air "and" a quieter overall system? 

The new pump will arrive here next week. I will report how it sounds, and I will capture a short video to share its noise signature with all of you :devil:


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## 65535

If you're motor is the 220V 15A motor you'll be set for more air flow and should be quiet, if not you'll get an extra quiet system will a small air flow hit.


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## wquiles

65535 said:


> If you're motor is the 220V 15A motor you'll be set for more air flow and should be quiet, if not you'll get an extra quiet system will a small air flow hit.



I just checked the motor (you know I "had" to check!), and this is what I found:

Brand: Can't tell. The motor was repainted to match the black used in all of the internal parts, and it has a brand new label branded Eaton Compressor, but it looks pretty beefy. 
Voltage: 110/220V (60Hz motor)
Amp: 18.5/9.3A
HP: 2HP
RPM: 1740
Rating: 40C Continuous duty
Enclosure: TEFC

So it looks like if I upgrade the oil-less OEM pump with the 13CFM oil-based pump, I would be getting the second choice you noted: an extra quiet system with a small air flow hit. This might be a very nice upgrade after all


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## mdocod

wquiles said:


> Voltage: 110/220V (60Hz motor)
> Amp: 18.5/9.3A
> HP: 2HP



Apparently one of those marketing "guru's" wasn't allowed to tamper with these numbers, they look, um.... honest, weird...

I'm pretty sure that would be considered a "12HP" unit by any other joint. 

Sounds like good stuff Will. 

-Eric


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## will

One question on the PVC pipes used for an air compressor, What kind of end caps are being used? I would guess that they are put together with the standard PVC cleaner and glue. For areas where threaded inserts are used - what kind of pressure can those take. like others have said - the PVC just doesn't seem like a good idea..


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## 65535

Call up Eaten when you get a chance and ask them what size motor pulley you will need to properly run that pump on the motor. That looks like a pretty beefy 2 HP motor. After reading on the pump webpage it says that the 2 HP they recommend for that pump with a smaller pulley is 11Amps 220V which is a bit more powerful than the one supplied in the compressor you have. So make sure you get the right pulley and you'll be set. I would expect the oil bath to produce more CFM than the oil free but not near what it would do with a larger motor.


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## 65535

will said:


> One question on the PVC pipes used for an air compressor, What kind of end caps are being used? I would guess that they are put together with the standard PVC cleaner and glue. For areas where threaded inserts are used - what kind of pressure can those take. like others have said - the PVC just doesn't seem like a good idea..



PVC when new will handle the pressure, no question, but impact resistance is null, and when it does go, it is like a grenade, it fractures like glass with sharp shards, that fly fast.


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## wquiles

65535 said:


> Call up Eaten when you get a chance and ask them what size motor pulley you will need to properly run that pump on the motor. That looks like a pretty beefy 2 HP motor. After reading on the pump webpage it says that the 2 HP they recommend for that pump with a smaller pulley is 11Amps 220V which is a bit more powerful than the one supplied in the compressor you have. So make sure you get the right pulley and you'll be set. I would expect the oil bath to produce more CFM than the oil free but not near what it would do with a larger motor.



Gotcha. I know what to do now. Thank you much :thumbsup:

Will


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## 65535

I wish you luck with this venture. There is nothing like getting yourself a larger good compressor. My Craftsman isn't that big or that great, but compared to my 1 gallon oil free baby it's a beast.


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## smokinbasser

Not to hijack the thread but look for remanufactured air compressors at factory stores. They do a total rebuild and check them out thoroughly before reoffering them. They are in better shape than new ones and at a much lower cost and still have the same warranty. I had a Campbell-Hausfeld factory store in town.


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## precisionworks

> change to the oil-libricated 13CFM pump


To get 12 cfm from a recip, you'll need 4 actual hp at the motor ... 20+ amps at 240v. To make 13 cfm requires at least 4.5 real hp, nearly 25 amps at 240 volts. I'd try to pin Matt down about that, as it sounds like someone is working the numbers


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## wquiles

precisionworks said:


> To get 12 cfm from a recip, you'll need 4 actual hp at the motor ... 20+ amps at 240v. To make 13 cfm requires at least 4.5 real hp, nearly 25 amps at 240 volts. I'd try to pin Matt down about that, as it sounds like someone is working the numbers



Is it perhaps depending on the PSI? Eaton says that the 13 cfm is the pump's displacement, but that at 90psi is making a true 9 cfm, from a true 3 HP motor. If I swap the oil-free pump in my compressor and run this oil-based pump with the true 2HP motor that my compressor comes with, I would of course not be making 9 cfm, but the same or marginally higher cfm the 5-6 cfm the current oil-free pump makes.

I just need to run the compressor once it arrives to see how it works, but swapping the oil-free pump with this oil-based pump seems like a good deal, even if I only gain a marginal cfm output since it should be quieter and last much longer than the oil-free pump.

Will


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## 65535

Yeah, that is a little screwy but Eaton does make it clear with some reading that the CFM they have their pumps listed under is the displacement at atmospheric pressure.

They are clear to tell you that you won't get near 13CFM at pressure running within the specs. 

For instance my Crafstman compressor has a 10.4 CFM displacement but only 5.8 CFM at 90 PSI.

Despite the OP's issue with the unit he purchased, Eaton's honesty and accommodations are most excellent.


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## precisionworks

My earlier post (before coffee :mecry is incorrect ... first time that's happened this year 

Each hp on a recip will make about 3.4 to 3.5 cfm, so a 13 cfm pump needs "only" 4 hp (3.8 if you need to split hairs). Using the 2 hp motor should produce about 7 cfm.


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## wquiles

Update: the new compressor arrived in Dallas today, but delivery will have to wait until next week. We will see how the second one turns up


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## wquiles

precisionworks said:


> Using the 2 hp motor should produce about 7 cfm.



That is about the same as the 6.8 CFM at 100 PSI that Eaton states the compressor that I bought makes. So, moving to the oil-based pump, would not give me much CFM increase, but it should be quieter, last much longer than the oil-less pump, and has the potential to achieve the 9-10 CFM if/when I install a true 3 HP motor in there (there is no increase possible in RPM/output for the oil-less pump according to Eaton). Still looks like a good potential upgrade given the $145 cost for the new pump.

Man, I can't wait to hear/use the new compressor next week :devil:


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## mdocod

On the subject of compressors, an often over-looked de-rating that must be done is for elevation. 

We have a 120V 15A craftsman. Does a fine job on 1/2" line driving all sorts of tools, but it never keeps up with tools that it "should" based on the CFM ratings, I realized after thinking about it, that it's probably because we live at ~7,500ft elevation  If the loss is anything like the loss we take on our naturally aspirated vehicles, it could be upwards of a 40% de-rate.


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## 65535

Sounds like we'll be needing supercharged air compressors.


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## precisionworks

> 120V 15A craftsman


At 120 volts, 15 amps produces 1.5 hp - which is the largest motor most people can use on a 120v circuit. 

Take 1.5 hp X 3.5 cfm per hp and that machine is making 5.3 cfm. It should have no problem with an air ratchet or an air impact, but even small die grinders use around 10 cfm, and many air sanders use over 20 cfm.


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## 65535

precisionworks said:


> At 120 volts, 15 amps produces 1.5 hp - which is the largest motor most people can use on a 120v circuit.
> 
> Take 1.5 hp X 3.5 cfm per hp and that machine is making 5.3 cfm. It should have no problem with an air ratchet or an air impact, but even small die grinders use around 10 cfm, and many air sanders use over 20 cfm.



A lot of tools are rated by average cfm, which is cfm per 25% duty cycle. 15 seconds per minute. The REAL cfm is 4x the average cfm. People buying tools rated 5-6 average cfm are buying tools that actually require 20-30 cfm if run continuously.


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## 65535

So wheres the new compressor??


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## wquiles

65535 said:


> So wheres the new compressor??



Tomorrow between 10AM and 2PM :twothumbs

Will


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## wquiles

My new replacement compressor just arrived. Everything is perfect now, and the compressor is indeed very quiet as I expected. Photos soon, and hopefully a short video with sound as well 

Will


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## 65535

Is it soon yet?


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## wquiles

65535 said:


> Is it soon yet?



Yes, it is soon. And I already did one mod to it :devil:


New compressor - perfect!:






































The inside is now perfect as well:












First "mod", padded feet:











Second "mod", change the regular "A" belt for a powerflex belt:
















I have not attached it yet to the tank - maybe tonight or tomorrow. More photos soon 

Will


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## 65535

But where's the oil bath compressor? That new unit looks 1 million times better, what do you do with the old one? Did they pay to crate it up back to them?


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## 65535

How is the motor mounted? It looks like it's mounted on a hinge that lets it drop down to put tension on the belt.

I assume it rides on the same platform the compressor does.


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## wquiles

65535 said:


> But where's the oil bath compressor? That new unit looks 1 million times better, what do you do with the old one? Did they pay to crate it up back to them?


The oil bath compressor is the next/future upgrade. I asked again today (when I reported that the new one arrived) and he stated it was a complete drop-in => nothing needs modifying. They took the old one back today at the same time, and yes, they paid for everything.




65535 said:


> How is the motor mounted? It looks like it's mounted on a hinge that lets it drop down to put tension on the belt.
> 
> I assume it rides on the same platform the compressor does.


Like you suggested, the motor is mounted on a hinge to put tension on the belt, and it is on the same platform as the compressor. This platform with the compressor on top and the motor on the bottom is "suspended" from 4 heavy springs, which seem to do an OK job in muting the vibrations from the platform (although you can still feel it on the outer steel casing).

I have everything ready, but bought one wrong compression fitting, so I can't attach (yet) the hose coming out of the compressor into the tank - it will have to wait until tomorrow :mecry:

Will


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## 65535

I hope you're using high temp braided steel hose and preferably black iron pipe to plumb the tank to the compressor. The air leaving that compressor can get toasty. Around 300F.


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## wquiles

65535 said:


> I hope you're using high temp braided steel hose and preferably black iron pipe to plumb the tank to the compressor. The air leaving that compressor can get toasty. Around 300F.



Well, I did not know that, so I was just going to try using "regular" 300 PSI hoses from the likes of Home Depot. Maybe I can use the trick Barry mentioned earlier about using a loop of copper tubing just to cool the air leaving the compressor, before going to a normal hose.

Will


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## 65535

I'm not sure that standard high pressure hose can handle the heat. It's possible that the temp won't be that high. But my compressor reaches a good 300F on the aluminum tube that goes into the tank. The tank also heats up noticeably. Not hot, but warmer than ambient.

You should be fine below 120F.


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## precisionworks

> The air leaving that compressor can get toasty. Around 300F.


+1

Using my Fluke IR thermometer, readings consistently are in the high 290 degree range, right at the head. They drop to under 150 deg after going through three loops of copper tubing - roughly 18' (2' diameter loops = 6' circumference). It's the easiest & most efficient mod you can make so that water vapor cools quickly & stays in the tank as a liquid - otherwise it continues down the line & becomes liquid in your air tools :shakehead


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## wquiles

65535 said:


> I'm not sure that standard high pressure hose can handle the heat. It's possible that the temp won't be that high. But my compressor reaches a good 300F on the aluminum tube that goes into the tank. The tank also heats up noticeably. Not hot, but warmer than ambient.
> 
> You should be fine below 120F.






precisionworks said:


> +1
> 
> Using my Fluke IR thermometer, readings consistently are in the high 290 degree range, right at the head. They drop to under 150 deg after going through three loops of copper tubing - roughly 18' (2' diameter loops = 6' circumference). It's the easiest & most efficient mod you can make so that water vapor cools quickly & stays in the tank as a liquid - otherwise it continues down the line & becomes liquid in your air tools :shakehead




Gotcha guys. Point taken - thank you both. I will change my plans accordingly :twothumbs


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## gadget_lover

precisionworks said:


> +1
> 
> Using my Fluke IR thermometer, readings consistently are in the high 290 degree range, right at the head. They drop to under 150 deg after going through three loops of copper tubing - roughly 18' (2' diameter loops = 6' circumference). It's the easiest & most efficient mod you can make so that water vapor cools quickly & stays in the tank as a liquid - otherwise it continues down the line & becomes liquid in your air tools :shakehead



I had several thoughts as I read this....

1) Make sure your copper tubing is pressure rated.
2) As pressure goes up, so does the boiling point of the water, so at 120 psi (8 atm) the water vapor is likely to condense at temperatures well above the normal 212 F.
3) I can't see why the loops would keep condensate out of the lines. The water will condense in the loops. The air moving at speed through the narrow tubing should move the water quite well, even up hill. The car wash uses compressed air to dry nooks and crannies of my car.

What am I missing? Does this method really mean that you see no water in the traps that you have downstream of the loops?

Thanks

Daniel


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## StrikerDown

gadget_lover said:


> I had several thoughts as I read this....
> 
> 1) Make sure your copper tubing is pressure rated.
> 2) As pressure goes up, so does the boiling point of the water, so at 120 psi (8 atm) the water vapor is likely to condense at temperatures well above the normal 212 F.
> 3) I can't see why the loops would keep condensate out of the lines. The water will condense in the loops. The air moving at speed through the narrow tubing should move the water quite well, even up hill. The car wash uses compressed air to dry nooks and crannies of my car.
> 
> What am I missing? Does this method really mean that you see no water in the traps that you have downstream of the loops?
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Daniel




The idea is to cool the air prior to the tank so it condenses there instead of making it all the way to the tools, spray guns, etc. where water can be a real problem. I sprayed a car once and the water does not mix well with the paint, or air motors for that matter.

My quick fix was to run the air through a couple long coiled hoses then into the water separator then through another hose to the spray gun. If the air stays hot it carries the vapor with it through the separators, it must be cooled to condense and separate the water. Putting the coils before the tank works the best as it cools the air more before the tank so the water can settle where the air speed is less likely to push it down the lines.

Am I making any sense here?


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## StrikerDown

Will,

That compressor looks sweet, I am sure your neighbors will never know how much you care for them!


BTW I found my own Eaton compressor on eBay!

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/e...0303580411&viewitem=&sspagename=STRK:MEWAX:IT

I think the motor should have enough horsepower to do the job! :devil:

My neighbors on the other hand are going to hear this baby!:devil::devil:


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## gadget_lover

Ahah! Compressor then coil then tank. The tank then becomes a very, very big water seperator.

For some reason I was thinking compressor -> tank -> coil -> air lines.

Thanks for the clarification.

Daniel


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## 65535

gadget_lover said:


> Ahah! Compressor then coil then tank. The tank then becomes a very, very big water seperator.
> 
> For some reason I was thinking compressor -> tank -> coil -> air lines.
> 
> Thanks for the clarification.
> 
> Daniel



Yeah the tank cools the air off pretty well, but it does not remove the moisture very well. A Coalescing Filter and a motor guard filter are great. Or so I'm told.


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## 65535

On the second pic up from the bottom it shows the tension bolt, likely a pair of them. Cut a small amount of that foam and put it under the bolt head(s).


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## wquiles

StrikerDown said:


> Will,
> 
> That compressor looks sweet, I am sure your neighbors will never know how much you care for them!
> 
> 
> BTW I found my own Eaton compressor on eBay!
> 
> http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/e...0303580411&viewitem=&sspagename=STRK:MEWAX:IT
> 
> I think the motor should have enough horsepower to do the job! :devil:
> 
> My neighbors on the other hand are going to hear this baby!:devil::devil:


Ray - yes, that "compressor" will likely to be louder than the one I just got 




65535 said:


> On the second pic up from the bottom it shows the tension bolt, likely a pair of them. Cut a small amount of that foam and put it under the bolt head(s).



I actually though your idea was good/sound, so I started to look into it tonight. It is actually just one bolt, and it has a nut on both sides of the plate, so it does not move at all - no need to put foam on it


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## wquiles

I bought a 10" piece of 1/2" copper tubing, and I am going to use it to cool the air before connecting to the "regular" air hose. Of course, I had to first learn to do soldering on copper - sweat the joints. Here is my first ever solder job:












and the other side:






Getting closer and closer to a fully running system 

Will


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## 65535

Hell if you are planing on mounting the tank and compressor relatively solidly. (Not moving them around more than an inch or so.) I would just run the copper pipe to the tank without any other hose. It'll handle the temps and being flexible tubing it should handle vibrations and some torque. How you connect the hose now that you have threaded fittings on either end is you're own call. 

I might recommend compression fittings just for shear ease of use, but I do prefer soldering 99% of the time.

That is some nice soldering. Better than my first try when I thought sweating meant heating the pipe up and it was done. Worked until it cooled down and popped apart.

Edit. To connect male-male NPT ends that have no way of rotating use a union, of course it'll have to be rated to pressure. 
http://www.antonline.com/p_WORLD-WI...LACK-IRON-GROUND-JOINT-UNION-1-2--_396931.htm as an example.


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## wquiles

65535 said:


> Hell if you are planing on mounting the tank and compressor relatively solidly. (Not moving them around more than an inch or so.) I would just run the copper pipe to the tank without any other hose. It'll handle the temps and being flexible tubing it should handle vibrations and some torque. How you connect the hose now that you have threaded fittings on either end is you're own call.
> 
> I might recommend compression fittings just for shear ease of use, but I do prefer soldering 99% of the time.
> 
> That is some nice soldering. Better than my first try when I thought sweating meant heating the pipe up and it was done. Worked until it cooled down and popped apart.
> 
> Edit. To connect male-male NPT ends that have no way of rotating use a union, of course it'll have to be rated to pressure.
> http://www.antonline.com/p_WORLD-WI...LACK-IRON-GROUND-JOINT-UNION-1-2--_396931.htm as an example.



I was actually shown the compression fittings at Home Depot, but they were rated at a max. of 200F, and at the time that seemed low given that you and Barry had stated about reaching almost 300F, so I decided on soldering instead. As it turns out (more on this below), I am not even reaching 120F, so I "could" have used the compression fittings after all 

Will


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## wquiles

OK, so I got the compressor running for real now 

Of course, it was not easy to get the soldered hose in place:












This is how it looks like (metal copper tubing does not touch itself nor anything else):
















This is how my garage looks like on the side where the compressor sits (tank and machinery is on the opposite side of the garage). That black AC cable on the upper-left, on top of the small trash container is the 30A, 120V outlet (if I can find my watt-o-meter I will measure the actual current draw while on standby [just the cooling fans] and while running):






OK, so here is the tank side of this "system":











The problem that I had is that I want to fit this ball valve on the intake, which uses 3/8" tapered, but the compression fitting that I was able to find on the other side is 3/8" straight:











I tried in 3 different local stores (HD, Lowes, Horror Freight), and no-one has something like that. They said maybe a specialty store. So I figured, hey, I have a lathe - how difficult can it be to make these parts fit? As it turns out, very easy :devil:

I first measured the threads (18TPI):











And then on the lathe I took the mating part, turned it down, and re-thread it. It ended up being a tad loose, but with the Teflon tape I got a leak-free connection:






Here is the completed assembly - that retractable 50ft hose reel on the left is my next thing to install/mount:






and here is where I am (for now) keeping the tank. Since I have ball valves on both the input and output, I can move and take the pressurized tank anywhere I need air 






The actual compressor had a tiny air leak, but after running for about an hour it sealed itself up. The only places where I had very tiny air leaks are the two ends of the 1/4" copper tube that I used on top of the storage tank, which as it turns out (see temps below), I did not "need" to have - overkill I guess. I might simply solder them to have trouble-free connections.

Now, the temps. I got the compressor to run full-time, and after 15 minutes of so, I measured the temps in various places with a touch-free IR meeter, and I got the following approx values:

- inside the compressor housing, right at the top of one of the pistons: 200F
- inside the compressor housing, on the copper tube that connects both pistons to the regulator: 134F
- outside the compressor housing, right outside the ball valve as it connects to the copper loop: 112F
- outside the compressor housing, at the end of the cooper tube that connects to the air hose:109F
- at the copper tube on the other side of the garage, after a 50 foot run of 3/8" air hose: about ambient temp, which today was a very hot 90-95F

So it looks like this compressor is running so slow that it does not generate the intense heat we expected, which is a good thing as it will be easier to capture the condensed water instead of having it go out on the actual air tools. 

Now I need a simple, but good water filter 

Will


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## turbodog

Run the copper tubing through a bucket with cold water in it.

Buy some finned tubing. Removes a lot more heat.


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## precisionworks

Nice job, Will 

The copper tube is not overkill at all, because it is the most efficient (inexpensive) way to transfer heat before the air enters the tank. If my shop were larger, the coils would be 100' long, because that much less heated air would enter the tank, heat the tank, and go out of the tank as moisture laden air. Using the coil at the compressor & again at the tank is a smart way to create a high efficiency air-to-air intercooler.

It easy & inexpensive to build an air-to-air _aftercooler_ that takes air from the tank, runs it through vertical piping (or tubing) with multiple drains. Using both the intercooler & aftercooler, water removal rates of about 70% can be achieved. A refrigerated dryer will approach 100% removal rate, but costs much more, uses quite a bit of electricity, and takes more space.














My pipes end a couple of feet above the floor, which makes it easy to turn the ball valves to drain each loop. The go just underneath the ceiling. Stickout from the wall is about 6". The galvanized pipe used here is the wrong choice (learned that after the fact). Regular black pipe is the preferred material.



> Now I need a simple, but good water filter


As low as your compressor head temp is, and using the intercooler, you should need nothing more than a Motor Guard M60. I pull the M60 paper element at the end of each day & pop in a dry element. If you leave a moist element in the housing, the the coating inside the element housing will flake off, and the housing itself will start to erode from acidic carryover in the moist air.


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## 65535

wquiles said:


> Now, the temps. I got the compressor to run full-time, and after 15 minutes of so, I measured the temps in various places with a touch-free IR meeter, and I got the following approx values:
> 
> - inside the compressor housing, right at the top of one of the pistons: 200F
> - inside the compressor housing, on the copper tube that connects both pistons to the regulator: 134F
> - outside the compressor housing, right outside the ball valve as it connects to the copper loop: 112F
> - outside the compressor housing, at the end of the cooper tube that connects to the air hose:109F
> - at the copper tube on the other side of the garage, after a 50 foot run of 3/8" air hose: about ambient temp, which today was a very hot 90-95F
> 
> So it looks like this compressor is running so slow that it does not generate the intense heat we expected, which is a good thing as it will be easier to capture the condensed water instead of having it go out on the actual air tools.
> 
> Now I need a simple, but good water filter
> 
> Will



I am a little skeptical about those numbers. My compressor runs at a paltry 710rpm (or something very close to that.) and I can boil water off the unit. 

If you're thermometer is producing accurate results then you can try this test to ensure that. Most IR thermometers have a fixed emissivity, which means it only is really calibrated to accurately measure certain surfaces. Usually around .95 which is about what black aluminum anodizing is, and so is electrical tape.

Tape electrical tape on the parts to be measured, get up close and measure the tape. 

While possible it's that cool, it does seem odd it would be.


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## precisionworks

> While possible it's that cool, it does seem odd it would be.


Most "dental" compressors use Teflon piston rings, which have a _coefficient of friction_ (COF) that's extraordinarily low - much lower than a cast iron ring. The primary sources of heating in a recip pump are piston ring to cylinder wall friction and the heat of compression, with rod end bearing to crankshaft friction being secondary, as well as minimal friction where ball bearings support the crankshaft ends. By nearly eliminating the piston ring/cylinder wall friction, head temps should be lower than in an oil lubed compressor that uses cast iron rings.

Another consideration of Teflon rings is their lower maximum operation temperature. Where cast iron ring/oil lubed temps will often reach as high as 315 deg (safely), Teflon rings are limited to no more than 250 deg before degradation starts to occur. Most high quality compressors are designed using lower piston speeds to limit the temp to 250 deg or below.


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## wquiles

65535 said:


> I am a little skeptical about those numbers. My compressor runs at a paltry 710rpm (or something very close to that.) and I can boil water off the unit.
> 
> If you're thermometer is producing accurate results then you can try this test to ensure that. Most IR thermometers have a fixed emissivity, which means it only is really calibrated to accurately measure certain surfaces. Usually around .95 which is about what black aluminum anodizing is, and so is electrical tape.
> 
> Tape electrical tape on the parts to be measured, get up close and measure the tape.
> 
> While possible it's that cool, it does seem odd it would be.



I am not very confident about my cheap IR meter, but the temps can't be that far since I actually put my hand on the coil on the output of the compressor and it did "feel" like it was above 100F, but not 150-200F. Still, I really like your idea about the electrical tape - that is really easy to do, so I will measure some temps late today :thumbsup:

Will


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## wquiles

precisionworks said:


> As low as your compressor head temp is, and using the intercooler, you should need nothing more than a Motor Guard M60. I pull the M60 paper element at the end of each day & pop in a dry element. If you leave a moist element in the housing, the the coating inside the element housing will flake off, and the housing itself will start to erode from acidic carryover in the moist air.



Thank you. Just ordered the M100, which is a kit of the M60 and two filters


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## wquiles

65535 said:


> I am a little skeptical about those numbers. My compressor runs at a paltry 710rpm (or something very close to that.) and I can boil water off the unit.
> 
> If you're thermometer is producing accurate results then you can try this test to ensure that. Most IR thermometers have a fixed emissivity, which means it only is really calibrated to accurately measure certain surfaces. Usually around .95 which is about what black aluminum anodizing is, and so is electrical tape.
> 
> Tape electrical tape on the parts to be measured, get up close and measure the tape.
> 
> While possible it's that cool, it does seem odd it would be.



With the black electrical tape the temps went up about 10 degrees F, so yes, they were a tad on the low side, but still lower than we feared. I am getting good amount of water on the tank, so I would say that things are working OK for now 

Will


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## 65535

Good to hear, I didn't really think about that. I don't know all that much about medical compressors but it does make sense.

Good to know, good luck with it.


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## wquiles

precisionworks said:


> As low as your compressor head temp is, and using the intercooler, you should need nothing more than a Motor Guard M60. I pull the M60 paper element at the end of each day & pop in a dry element. If you leave a moist element in the housing, the the coating inside the element housing will flake off, and the housing itself will start to erode from acidic carryover in the moist air.



OK Barry, got the Motor Guard M60 filter today. There are no mounting brackets. How do you actually mount/hold the darn thing? 

EDIT: Except for just being "hanged" from a wire, I got it all plumbed and working


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## precisionworks

> How do you actually mount/hold the darn thing?


I've always run black pipe into & out of the MotorGuard, and supported the pipe with pipe clamps or pipe standoffs. You can make clamps with U-bolts from the hardware store & hardwood blocks (oak, walnut, maple, etc) that have been drilled to the tubing diameter & split in half.


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## wquiles

precisionworks said:


> I've always run black pipe into & out of the MotorGuard, and supported the pipe with pipe clamps or pipe standoffs. You can make clamps with U-bolts from the hardware store & hardwood blocks (oak, walnut, maple, etc) that have been drilled to the tubing diameter & split in half.



That is what I suspected. I will have to make a bracket for it soon since I don't have black pipes but just the rubber hoses.


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## wquiles

Well, I could not leave the compressor alone ... I now made another mod to it :devil:

The problem is the two axial fans - they are running 100% of the time, even when the compressor is not running. They are not super loud, but I don't like the wasted power of fans running all of the time for no reason. I understand they are there to help cool the housing sice it is "sealed", but after 5-10 minutes of running and cooling the inside, they should turn off until the compressor runs again. Since that is what I feel it should do, I created and installed a small circuit to make this happen.

First, a power measurement. This meter only measures to 15Amp max, so I don't know how accurate it might be here in this case, but here it goes. This is the steady state amps (at 120V AC) - just the two fans running:






and here it is while the compressor is running:






I must admit a little lower than I anticipated, but in this case it is a good thing.


Back to the project. Here is one of the two fans (one pushes air inside the housing, while the other pushed air outside the housing):
















It can be wired for both 120V and 220V. Mine came pre-wired for 120V:











Since there is no wiring diagram included, I had to reverse engineer the unit. This is the back of the panel. The lamp with the red wires signal power applied. The one with the yellow wires indicates that the compressor is running:






Both lamps can work with either 120 or 220:






So here is the wiring diagram:






For the circuit I re-used an existing 120V AC to 12V DC converter since the MOSFET I will be using is being triggered by a 12V DC circuit (you can see the schematic on top):






Here are the rest of the parts:






The main circuit board - schematic in the back (let me know if you guys want/need details):






I tried a couple of locations inside the project case:






until I finalized on this one:






Here is the completed circuit and already hot-glued to the case:






Here I am testing it:






and here I am done:











The circuit works by latching the signal to turn the compressor ON, and storing energy in a capacitor. Once the compressor turns off, this capacitor discharges very slowly, and keeps the MOSFET ON, which keeps the fans running, until the cap discharges enough for the MOSFET to turn OFF. If the compressor kicks ON again, the capacitor is charged again, and the cycle continues. With the values that I used, the fans stay ON after the compressor shuts down for appro. 7 minutes, which is perfect to keep the compressor cool, without being wasteful.


EDIT: Added some videos!!!

Video 1: Testing the circuit on the bench, but using a smaller resistor so that I only have to wait a few seconds to verify the latching works as designed:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QfZZzsOVIFM


Video 2: Testing the circuit, wired to the compressor, still using the smaller resistor. You can see how the fan starts and keeps running after the compressor is turned off. Then the fans stop after the capacitor is discharged:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tSu0RzkAtsc

By the way, the compressor in video #2 sounds loud since I had the camera less than a foot away from the actual compressor and the housing was open. With the housing closed, it is much quieter.

Will


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## darkzero

Cool! I have that same one that I got on sale at Newegg. I only used it a couple of times & threw it in a drawer. Thanks for the idea to bring it to the garage & play with it.


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## 65535

Hey dark, you'll have to let me test out my compressor with that meter. (I think that's what you are refering to if not I'm confused.) 

Will that fan controller is a great idea, that should be a factory setup for the unit.


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## darkzero

65535 said:


> Hey dark, you'll have to let me test out my compressor with that meter. (I think that's what you are refering to if not I'm confused.)


 
Not what I meant, I was talking about my garage! But if you want I'll send it to ya for a few days to play with as long as you promise to send it back.


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## 65535

Will, you might put a coalescing filter in front of the motor guard. It should help to keep the motor guard from getting over saturated prematurely. I know Barry recommends removing them when wet for the day when done, which is a great idea, but you'll get a little more milage out of them with a coalescing in front. And if you put it in front of the tank the tank shouldn't ever have rust problems, and you have clean air.


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## precisionworks

> you might put a coalescing filter in front of the motor guard


+1

When I had a plasma cutter, the Motor Guard was the last filter in the line ... the first three were a 5 micron conventional filter regulator, a coalescing filter, and a silica gel dryer bed:

See HTP Max Dry: http://www.htpweld.com/products/accessories/a4.html

The Motor Guard lasted forever with all that pre filtration


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## 65535

Nice looking setup, the .000002" is a little interesting. Although the decimal place is off by a lot. It's still .0002"

Correct me if I'm wrong but the motorguard filter is technically a desiccant type filter.


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## wquiles

65535 said:


> Will, you might put a coalescing filter in front of the motor guard. It should help to keep the motor guard from getting over saturated prematurely. I know Barry recommends removing them when wet for the day when done, which is a great idea, but you'll get a little more milage out of them with a coalescing in front. And if you put it in front of the tank the tank shouldn't ever have rust problems, and you have clean air.






precisionworks said:


> +1
> 
> When I had a plasma cutter, the Motor Guard was the last filter in the line ... the first three were a 5 micron conventional filter regulator, a coalescing filter, and a silica gel dryer bed:
> 
> See HTP Max Dry: http://www.htpweld.com/products/accessories/a4.html
> 
> The Motor Guard lasted forever with all that pre filtration



Good to know what would the next level in filtration would be :thumbsup:

I had the compressor ON all day today, and I used the lathe and air (for the Kool Mist Clone) both in the morning for a couple of hours, and then late in the afternoon, also for a couple of hours => This would represent a good day of use, representative of actual use. At the end of the day, when I went to change the Motor Guard filter for a dry one, it was not even damp, but it was like slightly darker than the dry one, so it was doing its job in sucking water our of the air. I still went ahead and put the dry filter, but it looks like this filter by itself will be more than enough for my use (at least for now!).

Will


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## wquiles

precisionworks said:


> PVC pipe is meant for lower pressure applications, and it degrades with exposure to heat & light. When it gets weak enough, a small impact may cause the pipe to shatter, and the shards will penetrate plywood.
> 
> Chem-Aire ABS pipe is pressure approved, but expensive:
> 
> http://www.nibco.com/assets/ChmairOvrw.pdf



You guys remember this recent dialog about NOT using PVC for compressed air? Here one additional case of a guy who actually was injured by an exploding PVC air line:

"I experienced a PVC air line failure back around 1986. A local Nabisco
plant had ran some air pressure lines to Graco glue pumps back in the mid
1970's. This was done by a lazy plant maintenance mechanic without the
knowledge of the plant engineer or his supervisor. He left the plant
shortly after to be a guest of our state for several years (He couldn't keep
his hands off other peoples motorcycles) and the unauthorized air line
installation was forgotten about and/or ignored for years. After over 10
years of exposure to oil from the compressors, the PVC became very brittle.
I was an electrical contractor and we were running some small EMT control
conduit across a mezzanine MCC deck. I accidentally bumped one of the 1"
PVC air lines with a piece of 1/2" EMT. EMT is very thin walled, very
lightweight steel and I did only bump it. The PVC line exploded along a 40'
section filling the whole motor control deck with very sharp PVC shrapnel.
Luckily there were only skin cuts with no eye injuries. Between my
journeyman, his helper and myself, we took over 30 stitches for our cuts. I
still have visible scars. The plant was fined several thousand dollars by
OSHA for improper use of materials and was ordered to quickly replace
several hundred feet of air lines with black iron. My WC insurance premium
increased for several years and I was not a happy camper.

I would never use or recommend PVC for pressurized air lines nor will I work
in a shop with them under pressure.
"

(name removed)


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## precisionworks

> done by a lazy plant maintenance mechanic


The water line in my shop that connects to the outside faucet is plumbed with PVC. I bumped a Crescent wrench against it when doing work on the air compressor dryer, and the water came out like Niagara Falls. The shut off is only 15' away, so nothing was damaged.

Water pressure here runs about 45 psi, and the line was roughly 30 years old.


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## StrikerDown

I am glad that I mentioned my friend using the PVC for storage. It did expose my ignorance  but now we all know not to use it for anything high pressure! 

Just another case where Barry is handy to have around! 

Thanks Barry :twothumbs


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