# Milky's Project-M... Meet M180-KL2... and M180-Mag2C!



## milkyspit (Jul 20, 2006)

*[size=+1]7/29/2006 Project-M Thread Available...[/size]*

Knight Lights has posted a Project-M thread that serves as a kind of master clearinghouse for all project-related photos, runtimes, specs, and other info. The M180-KL2 is a member of the Project-M family. Link is over here...

*Project-M by Milkyspit: Long-Running High Output LED: Availability, Info, Photos*
 

*[size=+1]7/27/2006 Update: A few more photos...[/size]*

The M180 is the baby of the Project-M family. It comes in at lesat two flavors, and maybe more. Here are a few photos of the M180-KL2 as it compares to an M180 housed in a hard anodized black Mag 2C...

_Close cousins..._






The two variations don't look that different sizewise... but that's only because I've installed an SW02 tailswitch on my personal M180-KL2. With stock tailswitch the M180-KL2 is markedly smaller than the Mag 2C, not to mention more robust.

_Piggyback..._





The Mag 2C platform affords a couple more capabilities... for one, it throws farther by virtue of its larger 20mm reflectors... for another, it packs a pair of 18650 cells, which increase runtime to *4-5 hours at a constant 180 lumens* of output.

_M180-KL2 fired up..._





M180-KL2 still pumps out one heck of a lot of light! Runtime on a pair of 17500 cells will be in the *2-2.5 hours range at a constant 180 lumens* of output, in a smaller and tougher host. 


*[size=+1]Original Post[/size]*






Once upon a time there was an old lady who had a lot of cats and lived alone in her unobtrusive little country cottage. Seriously. In those days I used to revel in snow days, not so much for not having to go to school, but because they represented a financial windfall! In a good morning's work I could earn $20 shoveling snow at three of the neighbors' homes... and my biggest customer was Mrs. Allmansberger, the elderly cat lady.

I can read your mind, kind reader! "So what the heck does Milky's crazy cat lady have to do with high end lights?" Please, pull up a comfy chair and let me tell you, dear friend. 

My father was cut from old-school cloth... "there's a right way and a wrong way to EVERYTHING, son..." even shoveling snow. I won't bore you with details but suffice to say, I was out there laboring hard, doing quite the professional job of hand shoveling (which to this day I'll defend as totally superior to any plowed or snowblown work! although also far more laborious of course) as my father had so expertly taught me... and out came Mrs. Allmansberger, clad in her signature weatherbeaten coat and black rubbers (when "rubbers" most commonly referred to footwear for inclement weather, and NOT anything sexual)... this itself was unusual as typically my sole interaction with the woman was when she reached out her split-level window to reach down with my payment... she watched for a time, then made this infamous statement: "We don't need an engineer on the job."

I later graduated from Princeton University with an engineering degree.

"So what does this have to do with FLASHLIGHTS! Show me the beef!" you say. Please, read on! 

I've long been overshadowed even at PhotonFest, my own event for goodness sake! because the lights I design tend to be ENGINEERED and don't impress... my personal definition of engineering is the study and application of compromises to achieve the most desirable whole. So my lights aren't brightest, nor largest, nor smallest, nor the strangest colors, nor capable of igniting one's hair... no mine are only reasonably compact lights with good output and decently long runtime, the sort I personally prefer for a good walk through the woods or down to the quarry behind my house. The PhotonFest attendees, God bless them, are very polite... they take the requisite time thoughtfully examining my creations... then move on to the Thors, crazy supercharged HIDs, teeny Larry-inspired lights, big 22x18650 bird cooker headlight-on-a-stick mods (seriously, this exists!), and many, many more. And those lights are impressive, they're fun to play around with! I love seeing all the great stuff folks bring around. Sadly, my small milky fleet gets left far behind.

Now given all the above, which hopefully was at least mildly entertaining...

*Project-M is a family of engineered lights.*

I've been working on what I call Project-M for a while now, developing the concept bit by bit... folks at PF6 saw the M180, an early prototype. A few of you have even, very quietly, purchased M180s though they haven't even been officially announced prior to now. The concept is this: build an LED light that combines bright output with extreme efficiency and very long runtimes. It's not about this or that magic component, but rather the synergies possible in a well-engineered (hopefully!) whole.

Now I am proud to introduce the smallest member of the family, a very rare breed, built into some pristine long-defunct SureFire LED heads and suitable for attachment to an M3 or M6 body...

*The M180-KL2.*

Some basics: the M180-KL2 generates, on average, *180 lumens* overall output continuously, in perfectly flat regulation, for *at least 2.5 hours* off 3x123 primaries or 2x17500 protected 1100mAh Li-ion rechargeables. The beam tint is XO or WO depending on specific choice of emitters. (I personally prefer the XO tint.) The head is very efficient and although it's well heatsinked, will tend NOT to generate much heat at all... in fact, even including converter inefficiency, it draws only 3.7 watts or so of power, which is less than many single LuxIII mods consume. :naughty:

Some photos...
















The head is more-or-less identical from the outside to a typical M3 incan head, but inside is another story.  The M180-KL2 won't win any throw contests against the SureFire lamp assemblies and yet it IS a good thrower... on the straight stretch of road in front of my home, I can illuminate a good 100 yards or so down the road, maybe more. What's interesting here is this head ALSO pumps out quite a bit of bright sidespill, and the tint is about as neutral white as any LED that I've ever had the pleasure of seeing... was extremely fortunate to source a terrific little stash of emitters for this project. 

For comparison, SureFire rates the M3 LOLA at 125 lumens for 60 minutes, and the M3 HOLA at 225 lumens for 20 minutes. The M180-KL2 compares favorably with its 180 lumens regulated for 150+ minutes.







In the photo above of my front porch, the image to left is of course the baseline, unilluminated porch, while image at right shows the M180-KL2 in action. Worth noting that these photos took place during midday on a bright, sunny summer day, so the M180-KL2 was competing with quite a bit of ambient light to begin with! For reference, the distance across the front porch is something along the lines of 20 feet from where I was sitting during the test. BTW, the beam color really IS that white. Note the hotspot hitting the valence over the far window.






The ceiling (not floor!) beamshot does a decent job of showing the combination of flood and throw in the M180 beam. The three emitters do a nice job of collimating into a single, beefy superbeam, and even from 3 feet out, the hotspot looks perfectly round, with nothing to give away the fact that three emitters produced it.






The posterized views (above and below) show falloff of intensity from the central hotspot outward... the photo below is a bit more closeup than the one above. Note that the oval, off-center look is NOT an artifact of the light, but rather an artifact of ME! I was holding the light slightly crooked while trying to juggle both that and the camera to take the shots. Please excuse! 






For closers, a shot of the M180-KL2 doing its best to burn a hole in the carpet. It will fail of course. 






I can honestly say the M180-KL2 is a true workhorse light. Best testimonial on my part is that I instinctively find myself reaching for this light more than for any other... and believe me when I say there are some excellent choices around here! But there's something very compelling about the M180-KL2. The whole really is more than the sum of its parts, and a certain synergy takes over...

It's a product of some decent engineering I guess... hope Mrs. Allmansberger won't mind! 

Or maybe put in the simplest terms: I like it. 

Thanks for sharing... and for the stamina in reading to the very end! CPFers rule.
:bow: :bow: :bow:


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## bwaites (Jul 20, 2006)

*Re: Milky's Project-M... Meet M180-KL2!*

As of this writing, there are only 2 M180-KL2 heads in existence.

There are 2 more new heads, one of which has been sold.

That leaves one more. Please see the thread in Mod B/S/T from Knight Lights.

Now, for my impressions.

I'm a hotwire guy, always have been, always will be. That warm white-yellow glow is the way light was intended to look by our Creator!

BUT...Incans are inherently energy wasters when it comes to producing light, because they produce a lot of light in spectrums where human eyes can't see it. In other words, they produce lots of heat!! 

Find a 180 lumen incan with a perfect beam and I'll find you a light that runs for about 40-60 minutes on 123 cells, never mind a rechargeable option.

This light though, produces that kind of output and runs longer than *2* hours. The whole time producing a beautiful beam!

Unfortunately, there are only a VERY limited number of these heads extant, and milky could only find 4. 

I'm like Milky, I keep looking for mine when I need a light. It's bright, runs a LONG time and comes in a compact package. Isn't that what we all want?

Bill


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## savumaki (Jul 20, 2006)

*Re: Milky's Project-M... Meet M180-KL2!*

Oh s_________t !!!!!!!!! I can't believe it; the flashlight of dreams, where have you been all my life??? 
Besides being one, albeit mechanical, I knew there was a reason I love engineers.

Milky, that is one beautifull, well thought out light. 
Now if I can just beg, borrow, steal, trade or whatever to get one. (Hmm maybe the Mclux PR-T or ---------------)

Well done:rock:

Karl


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## Bandgap (Jul 20, 2006)

*Re: Milky's Project-M... Meet M180-KL2!*

Milky said: 

So my lights aren't brightest, nor largest, nor smallest, nor the strangest colors, nor capable of igniting one's hair... no mine are only reasonably compact lights with good output and decently long runtime........

Hear, hear Mr Milky. 

I couldn't be doing with a ultra-bright light that only runs for 15 mins. 

Steve (ex-EE) Bandgap. 

ps, lovely light.


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## PlayboyJoeShmoe (Jul 20, 2006)

*Re: Milky's Project-M... Meet M180-KL2!*

That is SWEET Milky!!!!

But SO FAR above my Paygrade that it ain't EVEN funny!

I gotta soldier on with my Chop'd KL3....


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## milkyspit (Jul 20, 2006)

*Re: Milky's Project-M... Meet M180-KL2!*

PBJS, Great to hear from you, and thanks! (Actually, thanks to EVERYONE for their kind words!) 



PlayboyJoeShmoe said:


> That is SWEET Milky!!!!
> 
> But SO FAR above my Paygrade that it ain't EVEN funny!
> 
> I gotta soldier on with my Chop'd KL3....



There's no shame in a Chop'd KL3 my friend. :thumbsup:


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## Kiessling (Jul 20, 2006)

*Re: Milky's Project-M... Meet M180-KL2!*

PM sent ... 
And :bow: for this masterpiece !!
bk


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## chimo (Jul 20, 2006)

*Re: Milky's Project-M... Meet M180-KL2!*

Milky, very well done! You have to love those 1W S-bins!

I share your design philosophy of engineering trade-offs you stated very well in your first post. It's often more of a challenge to create a well balanced (practical) light than it is to delve into the extremes.

Many CPFers have two categories of lights: The ones they show off (to impress others) and ones they use as tools. I find my "gee whiz" lights sit on the shelf more and my practical lights get used more.

Paul


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## jdriller (Jul 20, 2006)

*Re: Milky's Project-M... Meet M180-KL2!*

sent pm


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## Long John (Jul 20, 2006)

*Re: Milky's Project-M... Meet M180-KL2!*

Hello Milky

What a nice light...:goodjob::twothumbs:bow:

Please tell me (us) which diameter are the McR's.:thanks:

Best regards

____
Tom


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## milkyspit (Jul 20, 2006)

*Re: Milky's Project-M... Meet M180-KL2!*

Paul, thanks! Much appreciated, and glad to hear we're of like mind on our lighting instruments. 

Kiessling, PM replied! Hurry my friend, hurry! That jdriller guy is nipping at your heels! 

Jdriller, PM replied! 

BTW, in the off chance anyone actually HAS a KL2 head gathering dust, I'd be happy to perform a little, er, surgery on it. :naughty:


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## milkyspit (Jul 20, 2006)

*Re: Milky's Project-M... Meet M180-KL2!*



Long John said:


> Hello Milky
> 
> What a nice light...:goodjob::twothumbs:bow:
> 
> ...



Thank you so much Tom!! 

The reflectors in the photo are McR16's. I've also built using SO17XA (smooth 17mm) reflectors. Both turn out great. :thumbsup:


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## Kiessling (Jul 20, 2006)

*Re: Milky's Project-M... Meet M180-KL2!*

PayPal loaded ... 
Quick enough this time to snatch up something great.
Thanx!
bernie

P.S.: I remember my old KL2 ... I sold it off for almost nothing back then ... :huh:


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## Data (Jul 20, 2006)

*Re: Milky's Project-M... Meet M180-KL2!*

That is so cool! Now let me think . . . yes, I happen to have a KL2 head on my shelf! Hmmmmm. And I have am M3 too.  :thinking: 

No, it is not for sale.  


Dave


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## greenLED (Jul 20, 2006)

*Re: Milky's Project-M... Meet M180-KL2!*

Magnificent, Master Milky does it again!


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## PlayboyJoeShmoe (Jul 20, 2006)

*Re: Milky's Project-M... Meet M180-KL2!*

Oh no, no SHAME in having a Chop'd KL3!!!!

The shame is it's on a G2 instead of something aluminum with 3 cells!!!!!


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## Sturluson (Jul 20, 2006)

*Re: Milky's Project-M... Meet M180-KL2!*

Scott, your creation is very, very impressive.

I share your engineering philosophy, though it really goes beyond engineering. You made a light that works in the real world.

:goodjob:


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## wquiles (Jul 20, 2006)

*Re: Milky's Project-M... Meet M180-KL2!*

Awesome !!!

:goodjob:

Will


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## Long John (Jul 20, 2006)

*Re: Milky's Project-M... Meet M180-KL2!*

Congratulations Bernie:buddies:

So you will get such a great and nice light, faster than you thought.

Best regards

_____
Tom


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## MorpheusT1 (Jul 20, 2006)

*Re: Milky's Project-M... Meet M180-KL2!*

Nice mod,



What kind of regulator are you using there?
And what are you using for a heatsink?



Benny


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## Walt175 (Jul 20, 2006)

*Re: Milky's Project-M... Meet M180-KL2!*

Very nice Milky! :twothumbs 


And speaking from my experience at PF6, it wasn't the quality of your modded lights, it was the quantity! They were all VERY nice, but I think I went into sensory overload after the first hundred or so. :nana:


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## Mags (Jul 20, 2006)

*Re: Milky's Project-M... Meet M180-KL2!*

Ill take it. Whatever it takes as long as around 150$ or a little more. Please... Ive been waiting for something like this ever since knight mentioned it.

A few things. Heat? Does it produce alot? And what would the Lux rating be? about? And will you be producing these? I am in line if it is.

Well maybe 150$ is a bit too little.... but I am willing to go as far as 200$.


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## milkyspit (Jul 20, 2006)

*Re: Milky's Project-M... Meet M180-KL2!*



Mags said:


> Ill take it. Whatever it takes as long as around 150$ or a little more. Please... Ive been waiting for something like this ever since knight mentioned it.
> 
> A few things. Heat? Does it produce alot? And what would the Lux rating be? about? And will you be producing these? I am in line if it is.
> 
> Well maybe 150$ is a bit too little.... but I am willing to go as far as 200$.



Mags, do you already have an M3 body? I can also put together an M180 in a Mag 2C body if you like... pricing will be a little lower and more in your price range (guessing... don't have all the parts costs added up at the moment)... and at the moment I've got a couple pewter Mag 2C hosts, a couple black, and a couple PURPLE!  Take your pick! 

As far as heat... not much. It takes several minutes of continuous runtime to feel ANY heat at all on the skin of the light, and it never gets more than warm. That's in line with the design... it only generates something like 3.3 watts total in all three emitters combined, and there's plenty of aluminum in there to absorb the heat.

BTW, the Mag 2C version running on a pair of protected 18650 cells would give 180 lumens for a full 4-5 hours. :naughty:

PM me when you have a moment, and I can get you some more specifics!


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## D MacAlpine (Jul 21, 2006)

*Re: Milky's Project-M... Meet M180-KL2!*

Whilst I understand that a lot of people appreciate something more for its rarity (fair enough, no problem with that), what a shame that these won't be available in any numbers. The M180-KL2 with (or even without) a 2-stage switch would make one hell of a fine duty light.

Milky, is there any other host out there that you could do something like this to in the 3x123A size range?

I've been finding these multi-luxeon mods very tempting for some time, but in a C or D cell body they're just too big to carry around 24/7.

Curse you for taunting me Milky!!!

Don


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## Kiessling (Jul 21, 2006)

*Re: Milky's Project-M... Meet M180-KL2!*

Yes ... a McE2S-equipped Z41, M3 body and this head ... sexy and functional ... with lots of lumens AND runtime. 
Now ... if it had a battery indicator, it would be perfect :nana:  

Imagine that one on the M6 :devil: ... 

bernie


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## Knight Lights (Jul 21, 2006)

*Re: Milky's Project-M... Meet M180-KL2!*

milky is working on an alternative head host for this mod and I suspect we'll know sometime next week if that alternative will work.

Bill


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## Pi_is_blue (Jul 21, 2006)

*Re: Milky's Project-M... Meet M180-KL2!*

I imagine the HD45 head could be used as a host if there are any of them floating around out there. A single 18650 version of this light would be awesome!


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## milkyspit (Jul 21, 2006)

*Re: Milky's Project-M... Meet M180-KL2!*



Pi_is_blue said:


> I imagine the HD45 head could be used as a host if there are any of them floating around out there. A single 18650 version of this light would be awesome!



Pi, given a suitable head, like something Aleph or E-series compatible, the M180 could run off a number of different power sources. Yes, an 18650 would be a great match so long as you're willing to accept the shortened runtime. My guess is 1x18650 LG unprotected 2400mAh would give you only... uh... *2 hours*. 

MacAlpine, see above... and yes, I've been thinking about that as well... some way to get these into others' hands in a more readily available host. Nothing to announce yet, but working on the concept!


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## Mags (Jul 21, 2006)

*Re: Milky's Project-M... Meet M180-KL2!*

Im thinking that a 2C host might be a bit too big for my needs. Can a 1C mag be bored out for something like 2 or 3 Li-ion AAs?

And yes I already have an M3 host. The incan beam isnt too pleasing to the eyes even though it throws quite well and is very useful.


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## milkyspit (Jul 24, 2006)

*Re: Milky's Project-M... Meet M180-KL2!*

Just got a SureFire SWO2 tailswitch from LightHound and mounted it on my personal M180-KL2... pretty nice IMHO!


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## MSaxatilus (Jul 24, 2006)

*Re: Milky's Project-M... Meet M180-KL2!*

Here's some pics of my M180....











.... I just replaced the guts and stuck the M180 into this nice purple/blue Mag 2C with a Kiu Bezel. Sweet light Milky, Thanks!!!

MSax


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## Kiessling (Jul 25, 2006)

*Re: Milky's Project-M... Meet M180-KL2!*

Just one thing ... the white sticky on the bezel isn't really that stylish ... :nana:
bernie


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## milkyspit (Jul 25, 2006)

*Re: Milky's Project-M... Meet M180-KL2!*



Kiessling said:


> Just one thing ... the white sticky on the bezel isn't really that stylish ... :nana:
> bernie



I have 100 lights, Bernie, and my teeny tiny brain can't remember what's in each of them! Please excuse. 

BTW, the labels are easily removable should anyone ever, uh, be victimized with one!


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## Data (Jul 25, 2006)

*Re: Milky's Project-M... Meet M180-KL2!*



milkyspit said:


> I have 100 lights, Bernie, and my teeny tiny brain can't remember what's in each of them! Please excuse.
> 
> BTW, the labels are easily removable should anyone ever, uh, be victimized with one!



Oh I think they are quite the rage! Everybody is going to want one of them. 

CPFer, "is that a Milky original label or a fake?"


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## D MacAlpine (Jul 26, 2006)

*Re: Milky's Project-M... Meet M180-KL2!*



Kiessling said:


> Just one thing ... the white sticky on the bezel isn't really that stylish ... :nana:
> bernie


 
See, he doesn't _really_ want it!
Strike him from your list and give someone else a chance......:touche:


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## Kiessling (Jul 26, 2006)

*Re: Milky's Project-M... Meet M180-KL2!*

:nana:


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## D MacAlpine (Jul 26, 2006)

*Re: Milky's Project-M... Meet M180-KL2!*



Kiessling said:


>


 
??? :tsk: 







 

You'd just better be good to it, that's all..........

(hey, I just "crossed the line" to "Flashaholic"!)


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## roguesw (Jul 26, 2006)

*Re: Milky's Project-M... Meet M180-KL2!*

milkyspit
what is the viability of 3x Lux V in that configuration?
would the run time decrease substantially? or if 3 x Lux V driven below spec, at 500mA, would it be viable?
just thinking more lumens


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## milkyspit (Jul 27, 2006)

*Re: Milky's Project-M... Meet M180-KL2!*



roguesw said:


> milkyspit
> what is the viability of 3x Lux V in that configuration?
> would the run time decrease substantially? or if 3 x Lux V driven below spec, at 500mA, would it be viable?
> just thinking more lumens



Rogue, it's technically easier to connect 4x LuxV for various reasons... and it looks like an M3 head gives a decent chance of mounting 4x McR-16 reflectors inside. If so, and assuming 500mA through each LuxV, I'd estimate the following...

*Tentative Specs for M512-M3 (4x LuxV)...*

Expected Output: 512 lumens continuous
Runtime (3x123 primary 1400mAh): 0h 57m
Runtime (3xR123 protected 900mAh): 0h 44m
Runtime (2x17500 protected 1100mAh): 0h 36m

Remember, this is hypothetical but I do think it can be done! I would expect output to be wall-of-light style, not necessarily outthrowing the M180, but certainly in close to medium range it will be markedly brighter.

Move up to a Mag 2C host and you've got...

*Tentative Specs for M512-Mag2C (4x LuxV)...*

Expected Output: 512 lumens continuous
Runtime (2x18650 unprotected LG 2400mAh): 1h 19m
Runtime (2x18650 protected 1800mAh): 0h 59m

The Mag 2C won't give much longer runtime but WILL allow use of larger reflectors, so throw ought to be a bit better than the M3 version... still, an M180-Mag2C would likely outthrow this one. Meanwhile, the M420 (7 emitters in a Mag C or D) would be nearly as bright and offer almost something approaching double the runtime.

And that's the thing: runtime with 4x LuxV, even though they're underdriven at 500mA, really takes a beating! And that runs contrary to the spirit of Project-M.

On the other hand, the concept of 512 lumens in an M3 form factor, lasting upwards of an hour certainly does have a certain appeal...


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## milkyspit (Jul 27, 2006)

*Re: Milky's Project-M... Meet M180-KL2!*

*[size=+1]A few more photos...[/size]*

The M180 is the baby of the Project-M family. It comes in at lesat two flavors, and maybe more. Here are a few photos of the M180-KL2 as it compares to an M180 housed in a hard anodized black Mag 2C...

_Close cousins..._





The two variations don't look that different sizewise... but that's only because I've installed an SW02 tailswitch on my personal M180-KL2. With stock tailswitch the M180-KL2 is markedly smaller than the Mag 2C, not to mention more robust.

_Piggyback..._





The Mag 2C platform affords a couple more capabilities... for one, it throws farther by virtue of its larger 20mm reflectors... for another, it packs a pair of 18650 cells, which increase runtime to *4-5 hours at a constant 180 lumens* of output.

_M180-KL2 fired up..._





M180-KL2 still pumps out one heck of a lot of light! Runtime on a pair of 17500 cells will be in the *2-2.5 hours range at a constant 180 lumens* of output, in a smaller and tougher host.


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## milkyspit (Jul 29, 2006)

*[size=+1]7/29/2006 Project-M Thread Available...[/size]*

Knight Lights has posted a Project-M thread that serves as a kind of master clearinghouse for all project-related photos, runtimes, specs, and other info. The M180-KL2 is a member of the Project-M family. Link is over here...

*Project-M by Milkyspit: Long-Running High Output LED: Availability, Info, Photos*


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## Knight Lights (Aug 2, 2006)

bump


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## milkyspit (Aug 13, 2006)

*Weekend at Bernie's (Build)!
*

FINALLY completed Kiessling's uber-M180-KL2 build! This one is probably the best one yet. Wish I had one!



Anyway, without further ado, a little eye candy... note the black felt surfacing on the heatsink in the first photo... kinda sets off the reflectors like little gems on display in a jewelry store display case...

_Scotch Tape Spool, Cobblestone, and Leaves Not Included!_ 






Some more photos, not as nifty as the one above, mainly due to my decidedly meager photography skills... apologies in advance for that...

_Yes, that's an M3-style crenelated hard anodized bezel on there...
this last purchase of two KL2 heads were the ONLY TWO I've ever seen like that, SureFire stock! Go figure._





_Mounted on an M3 body_





_Beam profile_





_Milky Labs before and after powering up the Kiessling M180-KL2_ :naughty:





_This is the head that doesn't exist, officially!
(O-ring added during the M180-KL2 buildout.)
_





_Some closeups_










_Finally, a different take on the aesthetics. This one's Leef's!
Features a custom-made heatsink with glass bead blasted finish.
With all the praise of Kiessling's, no disrespect intended here!
Leef's light has a different look but also compelling, IMHO.
Would love to have one of these, too... goshdangit!  
_


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