# Big Cree XLamp CXA3590 for e-bike lamp?



## NeilP

I am toying with ideas for an off road e-bike lamp...might even be usable on road with a suitable beam angle and reflector..but

My home built e-bike runs on either 20 or 24 series, so 70-100 volts, the pack is generally 20s4p LiPo.

So I want a BIG light, hence the thought of using this monster LED array, usually used for industrial lighting from what I can see.

http://www.cree.com/LED-Components-and-Modules/Products/XLamp/Arrays-NonDirectional/XLamp-CXA3590



My pack voltage changes with acceleration, so I'd need a driver capable of running the Vf of 77 volts, with an input voltage to the driver either side of that...70 up to 84v

ummm.


Only a random idea to throw out there for comment at the moment. Just that I saw the Lumen output and I started drooling, 10- 16,000 lumen :devil:

How would I drive this? any suggestions for a driver ? maybe one of the Meanwell LED blocks.like this one

http://www.meanwell.com/search/HLG-120H-C/default.htm

officially an AC input..but from experience with all the basic Switched mode PSU's that run computers/ PC displays etc an AC unit runs perfectly well on DC, OK, my supply voltage is a little below what they recommend as an AC init...but ???


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## SemiMan

Are you nuts ... he asks rhetorically .....

You don't need 10,000 lumens for an e-bike, on or off the road and certainly never-ever on road.

Car headlights, low beams, are 1/10 this.

Semiman


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## NeilP

Who said anything about Need!! I WANT !!!


I know it is stupid bright..but what the hell ..if I can do it it would be fun.

Cooling airflow not an issue


Not sure about the car lamps being 1/10 th though>>

Lumens/ lux etc, and what it appears as, All I know is that I have a De Noitte lamp..they claim 1600 lumen...and car lamps appear much much brighter when a car approaches from behind, the bike light is soon swamped with the 'volume' of light from the less bright car lights.

edit ..actually they claim 2100 lumen
http://store.dinottelighting.com/dinotte-xml-4-headlight-p190.aspx

I know vaguely the difference between lux/ light levels per square unit area etc...I am not totally blind to the issues, but it would just be crazy..no more need than guys that have stupid power audio systems in the ri cars.

Not going to go around on the road blinding people ..and getting cyclist a bad name...check out my earlier post about proper dip bicycle headlamps for road use. Damn what is needed :devil: I want to know if I can make a a portable 16,000 lumen flood lamp that i can power off my 20s4p 20 Ah bike pack


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## Alaric Darconville

NeilP said:


> I know it is stupid bright..but what the hell ..if I can do it it would be fun.


It can also result in you getting mowed over by blinded drivers, or being so blinded by your own light you run into something or off into a ravine.



> Not sure about the car lamps being 1/10 th though


You should be. An HB4/9006 bulb (commonly used for low beam lamps) is 1000lm, your hypothetical 16,000lm light is 16x that.



> edit ..actually they claim 2100 lumen
> http://stοre.dinοttelighting.cοm/dinοtte-xml-4-headlight-p190.aspx


Most of the time, lumen ratings are for the emitter; optics efficiency and design play a huge role in how many "road lumens" you get.

There are threads in the sibling subforum, "Bicycle". Perhaps a mod can move this thread for you, if this e-bike is still in the "bicycle" category, not "motorcycle".


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## NeilP

You probably need to go back and re read my first post where I say it is not really for on road use, unless correctly directed not to blind people.

No chance of me ever driving into a ravine, for two reasons , 1} I don't ride in such areas, and/ 2} I not a flat out rider that would go fast where I could not see. 

No matter what a physical lumen number is, a car headlight, when you are on the road and being tailgated , the car lights instantly our class and swamp your bike lights. 
I have the DeNoitte main lamp and 1800 head lamp but the light they produce is instantly and totally overwhelmed when a standard car comes up behind you.
Actual lumen number means very little when you start looking at light levels per sq meter . I'd already mentioned that.


There are many forum sub sections and where a particular subject goes is always going to be difficult .
I am typing this now from the iPhone Forum app - I can't see or remember which sub section this is posted in, but I doubt the cycle section is the best, probably a custom build section would be the place for this . So maybe I did post in the wrong place, sorry for that if I did.


But if we could get back to the original question, and not get side tracked by opinions that are irrelevant, to how I'd drive that array from 70-84volt DC, that would be great. 




Sent from my iPhone using Candlepowerforums


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## Alaric Darconville

NeilP said:


> You probably need to go back and re read my first post where I say it is not really for on road use.





> No matter what a physical lumen number is, a car headlight, when you are on the road and being tailgated , the car lights instantly our class and swamp your bike lights.



Make up your mind. Is it for road use or not for road use? And if their lights swamp yours, then surely you're being seen (if your e-bike has reflectors and a tail lamp and you're appropriately dressed). It also means you get the benefit of their light- that your light is swamped doesn't suddenly mean you're not seeing anything at all.



> I have the DeNoitte main lamp and 1800 head lamp but the light they produce is instantly and totally overwhelmed when a standard car comes up behind you.
> Actual lumen number means very little when you start looking at light levels per sq meter . I'd already mentioned that.


That's because a car's headlamps shape the beam properly. Raw lumens is not an effective determinant of a headlamp's suitability to be a headlamp.



> But if we could get back to the original question and not get side tracked by opinions that are irrelevant to how I'd drive that array from 70-84volt DC, that would be great.


Perhaps if you could reduce your Rule 4 and Rule 11 violations, that would be good. You want to use emitters generating 10,000lm, used for industrial lighting, on a vehicle that will be sharing roads with other vehicles, with no optical design going into it.


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## -Virgil-

NeilP said:


> You probably need to go back and re read my first post where I say it is not really for on road use.



And _you_ need to realize it's harder than that to insult the intelligence of those who know what's what. We don't play "Heh heh heh, this is for, um, 'off road usage', heh heh heh, wink wink" games here.



> might even be usable on road with a suitable beam angle and reflector



You just acknowledged you intend to use this light on the road.



> unless correctly directed not to blind people.



Whoops...you just acknowledged you intend to use this light on the road again.



> a car headlight, when you are on the road and being tailgated, the car lights instantly our class and swamp your bike lights.



Really? Interesting. I haven't noticed that effect at all when I'm riding my e-bike _off road_, probably because there aren't a lot of tailgating cars _off road_. 



> But if we could get back to the original question and not get side tracked by opinions that are irrelevant to how I'd drive that array from 70-84volt DC, that would be great.



When you signed up for this forum, you agreed to follow the rules, remember?


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## Marcturus

Two weeks ago, he already started a thread here. A "40 mph" electric motorbike belongs into the automotive section, period.


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## Alaric Darconville

Marcturus said:


> A "40 mph" electric motorbike belongs into the automotive section, period.



15 U.S. Code § 2085 (low-speed electric bicycles) states, _inter alia_


> ...the term “low-speed electric bicycle” means a two- or three-wheeled vehicle with fully operable pedals and an electric motor of less than 750 watts (1 h.p.), whose maximum speed on a paved level surface, when powered solely by such a motor while ridden by an operator who weighs 170 pounds, is less than 20 mph.


So, it does look less like a "bicycle" and more like an "automobile, motorcycles included".

But, since you're in the U.K., this might be more meaningful:


Wikipedia.org article said:


> UK Electric Bicycle Laws
> In the United Kingdom, e-bikes are classed as standard bicycles providing the motor's maximum continuous rated power output does not exceed 200 W for bicycles, 250W for bicycle tandems (i.e. two seaters) and 250W for tricycles,[33] and cuts out once the bike reaches 15.5 mph (24.9 km/h). It must also be under 40 kg (88 lb) for a bicycle, or 60 kg for a tricycle.
> 
> Riders must be at least 14 years of age, but no driving licence is required.
> 
> Despite the more recent EU directive and standard, the UK’s[34] Electrically Assisted Pedal Cycle Regulations 1983 (SI 1983/1168) have not been rescinded and still apply. These require that the motor has an average power output limited to 200 W (250 W for tricycles and tandems), weight limited to 40 kg (60 kg for tricycles and tandems), and a maximum speed when power-assisted of 15 miles per hour (24 km/h). For electric cycles meeting these requirements, the vehicle does not require registration or periodic road worthiness assessment, and operators do not require a licence or insurance. (Operators must be at least 14 years of age.) However, since 2006, when Statutory Instrument 2935 brought EU Directive 2002/24/EC into UK law, vehicles that don't meet the EU definition of an electric cycle have required type approval. This overlap of requirements has certain effects, as described below.
> 
> The following features of an EU-definition electric cycle are not legally available in the UK:
> upper power outputs between 201 W and 250 W on bicycles
> maximum speeds between 15.01 mph and 15.53 mph'
> weights above 40 kg for bicycles and 60 kg for tricycles and tandems
> 
> The following features of a UK-definition electric cycle make a vehicle subject to type approval:
> the application of motor power without use of the pedals
> the application of motor power without progressive reduction to zero at 15.53 mph (meaning that at the maximum UK speed of 15 mph some residual supply of power is permitted)


Dang, you must be a good pedaler to go 40mph while carrying the weight of the battery and the unpowered motor!


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## NeilP

Sorry for not getting back to this sooner, it was not going to be possible to reply correctly to all points raised truing to tip it on the iPhone. 

I have though long and hard about replying and defending myself against this attack on me, in case it is viewed as ME trying to bait others..But I feel i must try and defend what I have said. Apologies if that is wrong.



-Virgil- said:


> And you need to realize it's harder than that to insult the intelligence of those who know what's what. We don't play "Heh heh heh, this is for, um, 'off road usage', heh heh heh, wink wink" games here.



I am not playing those games at all..If i'd want t for road use I'd happily say so, and take the flak for it. I am not trying to insult anyone. I am just pointing out what I had already said and that it was in the first post. 

I know I don't know *what's what * (to use your words) and I am not trying to insult anyones intelligence. This is why i am here to ask.

If any one has been insulted I feel it is me, in that you are thinking that I am playing games and using the 'nudge nudge' wink wink 'it is only for off road use'. When I say it is for off road use, that I mean that. 

I don't feel I have done any trolling or baiting at all. I already stated it was not for road use. I am very concerned NOT TO blind people on the road. If my link had been followed to my earlier post it can be seen that, I am also on the lookout for a proper on road bicycle light with correct road angled high low dip beam. 
It is of great concern to me that there are so many people going around with badly adjusted lights blinding on-coming cars. I can see legislation coming soon over here, there is already concern begin raised in the local newspapers. The last thing I want to do is to draw more attention to myself by blinding people and causing accidents.

It is an insult to me that you feel I would do that.

As you correctly noted I did say


> *might* even be usable on road with a *suitable beam angle and reflector*..but



Note the words "*might*" & *suitable beam angle and reflector*. If it was suitable adjusted to throw a pool of light to the ground with a sharp cut off, so not to blind it* might * be usable as a road lamp. But that is not what i am after as I have stated.

If there is any baiting going on i'd say it was begin done to me, in the deliberate ignoring and disbelief of what i am saying.



> a car headlight, when you are on the road and being tailgated, the car lights instantly our class and swamp your bike lights.
> 
> 
> 
> Really? Interesting. I haven't noticed that effect at all when I'm riding my e-bike off road, probably because there aren't a lot of tailgating cars off road.
Click to expand...


Who was talking of it happening off road? I was replying to SemiMans answer about car head light brightness and my experience ON road with my current bike light setup. There was no mention of off road, it was a discussion of perceived brightness of car lights and their lumen output in relation to bike lights and the perceived brightness on the road, caused by reflector design. 

So I can't work out if this is another deliberate attempt to bait me or really misunderstanding of what was being discussed. I am assuming the latter.
This is that quote, from part of that discussion with SemiMan about the current brightness 
SemiMan said


SemiMan said:


> You don't need 10,000 lumens for an e-bike, on or off the road and certainly never-ever on road. Car headlights, low beams, are 1/10 this.



So he was saying are lamps are around 1000 lumen. and I was saying I was not so sure about that , but I do have a basic understanding of the subject. So, I *can* understand how it could be, that a 1000lumen car lamp, (well 2000 if both lamps are working on the car), could give a much greater and brighter pool of light than my small single De Noitte lamp, with a manufacturers figure of 2100 lumen.

Lumens/ lux etc, and what it appears as, All I know is that I have a De Noitte lamp..they claim 1600 lumen...and car lamps appear much much brighter when a car approaches from behind, the bike light is soon swamped with the 'volume' of light from the less bright car lights.

edit ..actually they claim 2100 lumen
http://store.dinottelighting.com/dinotte-xml-4-headlight-p190.aspx

I know vaguely the difference between lux/ light levels per square unit area etc...I am not totally blind to the issues, but it would just be crazy..no more need than guys that have stupid power audio systems in the ri cars.

Not going to go around on the road blinding people ..and getting cyclist a bad name...check out my earlier post about proper dip bicycle headlamps for road use. Damn what is needed, I want to know if I can make a a portable 16,000 lumen flood lamp that i can power off my 20s4p 20 Ah bike pack

I do still want to know how I can do it. I don't like upsetting people, and I am sorry if anything i have said has come across that way. But I am only responding to what others have said.

Yes I do have a powerful e-bike, but still it is not as OTT as many out there. When I first built it it was a lot more powerful, as I overbuilt it. I used to run it all the time at 24 series (100volts). Now generally only 20 series charged to 4.0- 4.1 per cell, so 80 volts hot off charger. I have de tuned the controller to limit the power and current to a max draw of about 50 amps from the battery, where it used to pull 140 peaks. 

I actually live in Jersey, which is an island, and although part of the UK, we have our own government and laws, so UK regs don't apply to us here in Jersey, although we do have similar. I have discussed my bike with people at the local vehicle inspection authority offices, and although they have similar regs in Jersey, they are not interested as long as I don't go around building them for others and acting a total idiot on the roads. Which I 100% do not do. I actually get often passed on the shared cycle paths by hooligans riding like idiots amongst pedestrians. Just because you have a vehicle that is fast does not mean you ride or drive it at that speed everywhere.

I had stated what I was wanting it for in the very first line of my first post, I also mentioned that it would need a suitable beam angle and reflector *IF* it were ever to be needed to be used for road use. I even linked to a thread of mine where I was asking about a road use bike lamp with proper high low Dip beam , not just high low power. For my use as a portable flood lamp powered from my bike pack, I did not think I need one. But it was certainly considered as I mention it being needed if I wanted it for road use. If you feel as a flood lamp it will too need some sort of reflector then i am oped to suggestions.

Some bike lamps have high / low power, but not easy to access while riding, they are usually buttons on the lamp, and not a switch on a wire that can be fitted on the bars in easy reach of the hand. Any high / low lamps are certainly not beam shaping.

I have actually been in discussion via e-mail with Bruce Barnes from Phoenix Electroformed Products to see if they had anything like a high / low dip beam reflector available for LED lighting units, or if not what the process would be to get something made to do the job. Justin from ebike.ca tells me they do have a proper high low lamp in design at the moment, so i am trying to get details of their reflector unit.


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## Marcturus

NeilP said:


> I have gone back to the rules section three times now and cannot see how I have violated any of them. Certainly not 4 or 11 as previously linked to.


Then how about 9 or 10 of these? 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Orders_of_the_German_Commandant_Evening_Post_2_July_1940.jpg





No, sorry, just a bit of sarcasm because people kept having trouble where to place you. I'm glad you don't need to worry about the vehicle inspectors who seem to act like they learned to behave on a small island like this. How about insurance issues, I'm sure you know not to trust an agent's word? To cut this short, the market for functional lighting for e-bikes is still in it's infancy. With much of Southern Europe's youth financially challenged, quality LED lamps aren't yet standard equipment on scooters and similar vehicles. You need to look around, the forums offer plenty to read which you don't seem to have fully digested yet. Reliable custom mounts and power supplies will require real money, don't waste it on anybody who claims they can build their first motorcycle headlamp for you! Once you know your eyesight is okay, and you still decide that anything derived from bicycle lighting like a Specialized Expert or a couple of Edelux II DC low beams just won't cut it at your speeds, one place to continue researching is
http://www.hella.com/MicroSite/soe/en/powersports.html


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## NeilP

My friend has an original of one of those posters you linked to, he collects historical items like that.

I have done a fair bit of searching on the forum, and have my own ideas on how to drive them. Meanwell offer plenty of ready to go units but as I am not familiar with LED tech, I thought it good to ask and see if anyone had different views of how to do it. Over on the e-bike forums (endless sphere, where I have the same user name) people regularly use AC-DC convertors to drop pack voltage down to lower voltages. Although designed for 110-240VAC, many work fine down to as low as about 70 VDC. I was hoping that maybe people had other 'alternatives' that might not obviously spring to mind.

Custom mounting is not an issue, I have both lathe and milling machine so can fabricate most things.

The market for properly made LED lights for any bicycle, not just e-bikes is totally in it infancy. As I mentioned earlier I have a DiNotte lamp for everyday road use, combined with their headlamp, so i have 'solution' to not blinding people, which is the big DiNotte light pointing low level, and to the left towards the pavement, and the headlamp for distance, as it is easy to control where it points. But that is not ideal, so that search for a full on Hihg/ low dip lamp goes on . There is one in development by an e-bike store in Vancouver, but nothing on the market yet. I did e-mail DiNotte, and they just replied saying they did build a cut off beam lamp a few years ago, with a beam pattern similar to a dip car headlamp. but it was not a success, and they stopped selling it. 


This plan with the big array is not for riding at speed, that is not the thought behind it. Just because I have a bike with a potential top speed does not mean I ride everywhere at top speed, any more than anyone with a high power sorts car drives that at 200mph everywhere. I am frequently passed by idiots riding too fast on shared use cycle paths, and even on one particular hill at home with blind bends where a school mate was killed last year.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-jersey-22683657.

The lights I have for road use are adequate, not brilliant but adequate, there are brighter ones out there. I actually just found out that I made a mistake in the third post in this thread. I thought mine was 1600 lumen, then checked their sales site and the 4 LED lamps showed 2100 lumen and it looks like mine. But that is their new model, mine is 4 years old and is actually 'only '1200 lumen. The main issue with it is its lack of dip and the fear of blinding oncoming drivers. Would be nice to be brighter with more throw, but it is by no means necessary for my riding style.


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## -Virgil-

> I have though long and hard about replying and defending myself against this attack on me



Oh, please. You are not being attacked.



> I feel i must try and defend what I have said.



A better use of time: think about why you're getting the responses you're getting. 
A lot of it has to do with your seeming to contradict yourself about whether you'll be using this lamp on public roads. 



> I am also on the lookout for a proper on road bicycle light with correct road angled high low dip beam.



Probably purchasable, once specs like mass and power draw and size are provided.



> I know vaguely the difference between lux/ light levels per square unit area etc.



It might serve you well to learn (more than vaguely) about intensity, illuminance, and those kinds of things. That knowledge is prerequisite to building an effective lamp.



> Not going to go around on the road blinding people



Good.



> Damn what is needed, I want to know if I can make a a portable 16,000 lumen flood lamp



Why are you so fixated on lumen numbers? They're really not what matters. There are much more important measures of the performance of a lamp on a vehicle.


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## NeilP

I never tried to say I knew lots about it and am always reading up on stuff I do not know enough about, it is why I came here and found this forum after all. As far as I know "lumen" is the amount of light emitted, but not it's brightness, as that is subjective, being dependant on the reflectors, distance viewed at or the area those photons are falling on. I was merely interested in making a lamp with that big Cree. I never set out with the intention to doing it. I was reading up on soldering techniques of the XM-L series LED's in pdf's from the Cree website, and came across that big one. I thought it would be good to try building a portable lamp from it. Making it and powering it from the bike power source for use around the farm, fitting it to the bike was just a thought that led on from the initial thought of building the light. Lumens may not be the only factor in making a big bright light , but it certainly is one of the major factors. Greater number of lumens, more photons, more light volume. 
I just want to use that big Cree, just for the hell of it.


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## Norm

Closed at the request of the OP. - Norm


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