# Interest in Compact Fluorescent posts?



## ikendu (Jan 26, 2003)

I've started to replace all the lights in my house with Compact Fluorescent lights. They are 2-4 times more efficient than incandescent bulbs and last way longer. They cost more but since they last longer, the cost is about the same while at the same time saving money (and energy) from your electric bill.

However, (as with many things) I've found that not all brands or models are alike. I've got one light for my living room that is great and another set from a 4 pack that are terrific too! Some other models that I bought are dim, mis-colored and one stopped working way pre-maturely. Some start almost instantly and others take forever to come up to regular brightness. Although I bought two for my daughter and they are just about perfect! It's clear that not all Compact Fluorescent lights are created equal!

So...I haven't been able to find a good source of reviews or an active community of curious folks with which to share information on this topic. Naturally, when I thought of curious folks...I thought of this forum!!






Any interest in starting up a forum just for this category of lights? Or...anyone know of such a forum ...or, a good source of reviews?.

Thanks!


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## jmm (Jan 26, 2003)

I did the same thing about 10 years ago. I was VERY disappointed with their longevity (or lack thereof). Some of the replacements I've bought seem a little better, but I haven't found any yet that came close enough to being what I would consider "long life". I'd definitely be interested in seeing some long term life comparisons by brand, in case there was something decent out there that I havnt't run across in the local home improvement joints.

John


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## Chris M. (Jan 26, 2003)

This house has almost all flourescent lights too, asides the living-room which has dimmer switches so I can`t put any in there, and the bathroom shaving light, which I`m working on



. I did change out the linear incandescent tubes in the living room display cabinets with triphosphor flourescents, though they were bigger than the bathroom one and won`t fit in there. I`ve seen some shorter ones, it`s just a case of finding a supplier!

They`re on the whole pretty good in this country, our stringent rules and regulations must weed out all the really bad ones cos I`ve not had many problems and find the colours and CRI have been OK. Surprisingly the only troubles I have had is with Philips Ambiance, "normal bulb shaped" electronic ones - I had two of those fail within 3 months, so havn`t used them again. Their SL Prismatic lights are the best - good old fashioned magnetic ballast and a high quality tube good for 12000+ hours easilly, with good efficiency. 18 watts = 120 watt incandescent. The downside - they`re huge, heavy, and some of them can be heard to buzz/chirp a bit at close quarters.

I fould some tiny 15 watt electronic-ballast spiral ones recently that are as tall as a normal bulb so will fit where no other flourescent has gone before, and give as much light as a 75 watt normal bulb. It would seem the technology is advancing, so expect to see them get ever smaller and cheaper in the near future!

Don Klipstein has a good page where he reviews some of the CFLs he`s found for sale and will be more relevent to you US folks than anything I could ever tell you. UK flourescents seem to be quite different.

Don`s page: http://misty.com/people/don/cfbest.html

And yes, I know I can`t spell it right! But it`s too late to change. My typing`s bad enough as it is....


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## jmm (Jan 26, 2003)

Chris M - Like you, I've had decent luck with the "real" full sized tube/ballast based fixtures. I made a bathroom "shaving" fixture with triphosphor and cool white fluorescents in addition to incandescents so my girlfriend at the time could check out her makeup in the light of her intended destination. She liked it. She didn't like a lot of the other lights I made or bought. I started liking the lights better than her, but that's not a problem any more.

My previous negative comments were directed specifically toward "compact" fluorescents as they were the topic of this thread. I've gone through at least 20 Phillips brand compacts in the last 10 years, and there are right at the top of my "S" list.

John


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## James S (Jan 26, 2003)

I did a rather long post at some point in the past you may be able to find by searching the board, but I'll sumarize it a bit.

Sylvania 75w equivalent spiral lamps. These are my favorite. They are inexpensive and sold at Lowes. Color temperature is a good white and they are bright. Only downside is that they take a heatbeat to light after you turn the power on.

GE 100 watt equivalent spiral lamp. I have 4 of these I bought for less than $5 a piece from Target. They are all still going good. They startup funny though, with a bright flash and then light a hearbeat later. They reach full brightness quickly, but have a very pink or even violet tinged light. This is preferrable to the green tinged light that some el-cheapo CF's have though.

Phillips marathon 3 way 75/100/120 (?) these are also very nice lights. I own 2 of them and they are both going strong. They are very bright. The color temperature is not quite as good as the sylvania bordering on green, but not objectionable after they have warmed up. These are the hottest running of any of the CF's I have, but they are also the brightest. I would buy more of these, but they are also the most expensive. These are carried at home depot.

Commercial Electric 75 watt equivalent compact spiral lamps. Home Depot sells a LOT of this brand of light. These are rated for enclosed fixtures which is why I got them. They have proven to be very reliable, I've been running them for 8 months or more now in the kitchen overhead which gets switched on and off a lot. They light instantly which is nice too. It does take them a minute or so to reach full brightness and the color is quite green when first turned on but they brighten to an acceptable color, but not as good as the sylvania which is the benchmark as far as I'm concerned. They are also inexpensive.

Commercial Electric enclosed 75 watt equivalent floodlight. These look ver much like a regular par type lamp. The color is VERY blue and they take a LONG time to warm up, but do put out a lot of light once they warm up. Personally I don't like them very much due to the color and wont be buying any more.

Commercial Electric 60 watt equivalent enclosed bulb. These look like a regular bulb. Don't bother with them. They are very dim, take forever to reach full brightness, the light is horribly green and dim.

Lights of America lights. I bought 7 or 8 of their non-spiral tubed, 75 watt equivalent lamps about 4 years ago to put in the recessed fixtures in my basement. I was very impressed with the first batch I bought, the light color was good and they were bright. So I bought a few more and a few of the brighter 100 watt ones. All the 100 watt ones ballasts literally smoked and burned out within a couple of weeks. All the newer 75 watt ones burned out in a short time too. I have continued to use the first batch of 75 watt ones and lost the first one since then 3 nights ago in a lamp that burns most of the night. So I was happy with that first batch, but have never bought any more because I suspect their QA isn't very good. Or at least it wasn't good back then.

Lights of America twist lamp. I bought one a couple of years ago. It's aweful, green green green. Can't use it except in the utility closit.

These are my personal experiences with the lights, yours may vary!


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## jmm (Jan 26, 2003)

James - Thanks for the detailed info, maybe the things are getting better. I'm willing to put up with a few startup quirks and moderate time to full brightness, which is to be expected with any fluorescent. Even those that don't seem that obvious to the eye, show a big difference to a light meter after one minute of on time.

My experience with units from Lights of America parallels yours, generally el crapo. I may be willing to give Phillips another try with some of their newer units, since you said yours are holding up well. I really liked some of their other plus features, but the ones I had werent any better than the LOAs.

By the way, I've used some of your Mac software. You do nice work!

John


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## **DONOTDELETE** (Jan 26, 2003)

jmm, contrary to your experience with Philips, I have had very good service from mine. I haven't bought any more compact fluorescent bulbs in years since the last crop I bought is doing so well, so I'm not up on the very latest technology in terms of personal experience..but

the burnouts stopped when I found the Philips DIMMABLE compact fluorescents. The dimmables obviously handle brownouts much better than the others, (one of which actually melted a hole in it's side during a brown out where I used to live -- I'm off grid now; never a brown-out) the other non-dimmable fluorescents have been quite happy with the quality of electricity from the sinewave inverter too; even the Philips EARTHLIGHTs, which are NOT DIMMABLE, and NOT to be used with "electronic timers, motion detectors, or photo-cell devices" and it says so on the package..but these are lights are cheap; $8.00 at the Home Depot, and I like the warmish pink-yellow fluorescents better than the bluish 'outdoor' lights..but you are probably better off finding the dimmable ones..


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## **DONOTDELETE** (Jan 26, 2003)




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## Lurker (Jan 26, 2003)

I have dabbled with these a few times over the past 10 years and between several moves I have lost whatever I had. I am just beginning to experiment with CF again. I recently bought the Sunbeam value-pack of 4 twist-style lamps, 24W = 100W, at Target recently. Very cheap, I think about $12 for the 4 bulbs. I installed 2 in my bedroom office ceiling light fixture and am very happy with them. They light almost instantly, but start out dim and a little off-color, but warm-up quickly enough and are then very bright and white. 

The major drawback is that these lights are longer than incandescent bulbs and I couldn't get them into any of my enclosed ceiling fixtures in the kitchen or hallway, so 2 are still in the box.

I also put a yellow CF bug-light on my front porch. It has been cold lately and that thing starts out really dim and takes a good 5+ minutes to warm up, but is otherwise fine. It will probably be much better in warm weather.

I guess fitting CF lights takes some shopping around, and my wife always resists change of this nature, so I have not yet investigated any further. If someone could point me to good bulbs that would fit my fixtures, I might overcome my inertia on this. One hurdle is that I have numerous kinds of incandescent bulbs in my house, including 3-way reading lamps, bathroom vanity globes, chandalier bulbs with bases that are smaller than standard, spot-lights and lights on dimmers, etc. I will be doing well if I can just replace a few of the most-used lights, but wherever I can get one in, it seems like a good way to save money and help the environment.


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## jmm (Jan 26, 2003)

Ted - Thanks for the tip. I don't think any of the Phillips units I bought between 6 and 10 years or so ago were rated as being dimmable. Although I didn't use "electronic" switching or dimming on any of the fluorescents in question, it makes sense that those that could handle it might be a bit more gutsy. I don't mind paying more for something up front if it means I don't have to mess with as much later.

Jeeze I love this place, you get exposed to so much real world practical experience based knowledge.

John


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## **DONOTDELETE** (Jan 26, 2003)

John, my pleasure. I did a little googling and found links that suggest the designation "Earthlight" may mean dimmable, maybe not, you gotta check. They are several times more expensive;

interesting discussion of compact fluorescents, dimmable and otherwise;

http://www.cyberg.com/cflarticle.htm

pictures of dimmable and non-dimmable Philips, and some prices;

http://sierraclub.usptgear.com/energystore.htm

cheers!


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## ikendu (Jan 26, 2003)

The good ones that I got so far are:

GE spiral 100w equivalent, light quickly, bright quickly and good color (not too blue or too warm).

Sylvania 55w equivalent (bought in a 4 pack for $9 total)...same deal, great lights! ...and, compact enough to fit anywhere (but only 55w eq.).

GE mini-spiral 40w equivalent (only draws 10w!), these are REALLY tiny, small enough to go anywhere. I've got them in an enclosed, shallow glass fixture in a hallway. There is just the slightest hesitation before they light...then great! And...the 40w is just the right amount of light for that hallway. It used to draw 120w from two 60w bulbs...now draws only 20 watts from the two spiral CF bulbs; 6 times less power!

CF desk lamp from WalMart...takes a 13w, long, double tube CF. I works great! Quick to light and really bright for 13w!

Lights-of-America 150w equivalent; lights really well, this is my work horse "read the paper" light. This light worked so well, I really got thinking that Lights-of-America made really great lights! However...

Lights that have been BAD investments:

#1...all of my other Lights-of-America lights.

I bought 5 or 6 of the reflector style lights that go in those "in-the-ceiling" light cans. They work "OK" but overall, I'm not really happy with them. They are too slow to brighten up, too dim and weird color. They are 65w equivalent. Although, I am using them...and I've not found a better substitute.

I got another Lights-of-America 60w enclosed light (looks like a bulb)...it buzzes and it's too dim. Overall, I just don't think I could recommend any lights from this manufacturer.

#2 Panasonic Light capsules. I got these for the bathroom 'cause the spiral lights just looked too weird for my wife. They start unbelievably dim, take forever to brighten up and one of the 3 I bought already died after about 2 months of use.

Bottom line...so far, only the new spiral type lights have been really good. The Sylvania were clearly the best deal and are great lights too! All of the enclosed, bulb-look lights have been not-so-good. Now when we look for lamp fixtures, we only consider ones where the longer spiral type bulbs are going to work.


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## ikendu (Jan 26, 2003)

Any one got experience with a good outdoor CF light for a porch? It can get below zero here in the midwest but some nights we leave this light on for a long time and I sure wish it was CF!


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## highlandsun (Jan 26, 2003)

Anyone using these candelabra base chandelier CFLs? I have a couple chandeliers that regularly go thru incandescents and I'm tired of replacing them. (Two over my stairwell, 3 bulbs each, non-dimming. The big hassle is setting up the ladder to reach the 2nd lamp from the bottom of the stairs. I also have a 5-bulb lamp in my dining room, but that's on a dimmer and I definitely haven't seen any dimmable candelabra CFL bulbs.) The going rate seems to be around $7 each regardless of brand.


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## highlandsun (Jan 26, 2003)

Ted, thanks for the link but I've already done similar searches. Just because you find those words on the same page doesn't mean they're all in the same sentence, or talking about a single bulb. The dimmable CFLs are 18W or larger, in regular bases. If you know of a specific URL that has them, I'd love to see it, but that Google search is too general.


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## T-Rex (Jan 26, 2003)

newsgroup:

sci:engr:lighting

Look through the google archives. Discussions ad nauseaum.


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## highlandsun (Jan 26, 2003)

Here's a possibly better solution, a universal dimmer that drives fluorescents as well as incandescents:
http://www.maxlite.com/Pages-html/PR%20Stories/DimAll%20PR.html


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## James S (Jan 26, 2003)

John, Thanks





And I should probably mention that I've had ALL of the above mentioned lights plugged into X10 modules at some point. Some of them even incorrectly plugged into lamp modules. I'm careful to set those to not-dimmable in my home automation software XTension (which I whole heartedly recommend as the best home automation software available anywhere for any price) so that they don't get dimmed. I know that they shouldn't be used with the lamp modules as that even all the way on the output it an altered sign wave which could cause heating or buzzing in the lamps. The only one that had any problems with this at all were the Commercial Electrib bulb shaped lamp which I already mentioned was worthless no matter how you powered it. It buzzed loudly and got quite hot, none of the other lamps have had any problems with them that way and some have been on X10 control for a year or longer.


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## flashfan (Jan 26, 2003)

Be sure to check color temperature when buying compact fluorescent bulbs. I haven't checked recently, but most Home Depot, Target, etc. compact fluorescent bulbs emit approx. 2700k (warm white) light. 

I buy my compact fluorescent bulbs from topbulb.com (they were one of the few suppliers I was able to find several years ago that carried compact fluorescent bulbs with bright, white light at a relatively decent cost). The bulbs I currrently use are at approx. 4100k (26W). There are bulbs of 5000k and higher, but some of them are quite expensive ($30+ per bulb for the Spiralux). Ott-Lite manufactures bright, white (full spectrum?) compact fluorescent bulbs and fixtures, but they are expensive, too.

I've been planning to try out a couple of the "newer" (on the topbulb site) 55W, 5000k spiral bulbs, but just haven't gotten around to ordering them. The major drawback of these bulbs is that they are so HUGE, and thus won't fit into many applications...


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## **DONOTDELETE** (Jan 26, 2003)

> Originally posted by highlandsun:
> *Ted, thanks for the link but I've already done similar searches. Just because you find those words on the same page doesn't mean they're all in the same sentence, or talking about a single bulb. The dimmable CFLs are 18W or larger, in regular bases. If you know of a specific URL that has them, I'd love to see it, but that Google search is too general.*


<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">mm. there were so many promising sites on the google search page, I thought I'd just let you look yourself. sorry. I'm still looking. so far just this 5 watt fluorescent, non-dimming; (I'll add a dimmable here if I find one later)

http://www.topbulb.com/find/Product_Description.asp?intProductID=47177&promoid=70

(added)no 5w dimmables yet, but here's a 'starting temperature' chart for many different cf's i thought might be useful to some:

http://www.gaiam.com/retail/gai_content/learn/gai_learnArticle.asp?article_id=583


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## **DONOTDELETE** (Jan 27, 2003)

found several sources of dimmable fluorescent candelabra lamps;

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=ISO-8859-1&q=candelabra+fluorescent+dimmable

..luck.


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## Lurker (Jan 27, 2003)

Ikendu, regarding an outdoor light, did you check out the first link in this thread ("Don's Page")? Scroll down to the text area and there is a discussion of outdoor CF bulb performance in cold temperatures. Maybe that will help you out.


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## Kirk (Jan 27, 2003)

I bought 2 dimmable 23W Phillips Earthlights at Target last summer. They were around $15 each. They take a while to warm up, but they do dim nicely. I've been buying 13W and 20W "utility" CFs at the local 99 cent store lately. Even if they don't have great color or last "10,000 hours", I figure for a buck how can I go wrong? It's kind of a crap shoot what color you get, but for garage lights or hallway lights I can live with the industrial blue color, even though I prefer the warmer colors if I can get them. We've used some of the cheapies at work for exterior downlights that are on all night and some are going strong after 8 months or so. 
Kirk


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## BillPilot (Jan 27, 2003)

> Originally posted by jmm:
> *I did the same thing about 10 years ago. I was VERY disappointed with their longevity (or lack thereof).
> John*


<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I agree. I've replaced incandescent lights with compact fluorescents where I can. But the CFs just don't last as long as the package promises. Still, they last longer than incandescent bulbs, consume less electricity and are cooler. 

Compact fluorescents have a ways to go, IMHO.

--Bill


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## James S (Jan 27, 2003)

> Originally posted by BillPilot:
> *I agree. I've replaced incandescent lights with compact fluorescents where I can. But the CFs just don't last as long as the package promises. Still, they last longer than incandescent bulbs, consume less electricity and are cooler.
> *


<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The cooler part is the main reason I got into them in this house. We moved from Wisconsin to this much more southern climate here in Virginia and I was completely unprepared for the AC Bill the first summer here. So I replaced all our every day usage lights and it really did make a difference in the AC bill. It also made a big difference in the heat in the house. The summers are much more comfortable and much less expensive with CF's everywhere!

Course, now it's winter and I'm paying through the nose to run the old heat pump to heat the place and the CF's aren't helping there at all


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## Al_Havemann (Jan 27, 2003)

I've bought quite a few of the Commercial Electric brand spiral CF's (Home Depot - 60 watt equiv.) and all are still going strong. Their bright and I like the color temp and fast startup. 

I also bought 6 of the Commercial Electric outdoor floodlight replacements from Home Depot and like James S mentioned, they take a long time to come up to full brightness, especially in the winter, but their color is quite white and brightness is very good. No real complaints, I know how CF's behave in cold weather so it was no surprise that from startup to full brightness takes about a minute in 10 degree temps.

Overall, I'm well pleased with the Commercial Electric brand. There have been no failures, their bright, white and durable. 

I also like the Commercial Electric 3 watt CF's. Their in a plastic candlabra bulb configuration so if you want to use them in a regular socket you'll need an adapter.

I use the 6 of these in my walkway lights, 3 in coach lights on either side of my garage and front door and a run of 25 in my backyard for mood lighting. Together they total less than a hundred watts but their quite bright and very suitable for outside use in fixtures. None of them have failed or dimmed despite having been on continously for over a year (I don't turn them off).

The Light America brand is crap, dim and slow to come up and a bit yellow as well. Sylvania is good but I still prefer the Commercial Electric due to their much lower cost. I recently caught a sale at Home Depot with a 5 pack for $6.99 and bought 5 more packs. 

Al Havemann


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## lessing (Jan 27, 2003)

I have all cf lamps in my house and love them. I exclusivly use the 4 pack commercial electric lamps from home depot. Only my candelabra chandelier and one ceiling fan are regular lamps. I just do not like the look of the candelabra cf's. As for the fan, it is on a lightswitch with a radio remote switch;. My house is standard construction with brick filled exterrior walls. The radio remote switch was so I did not have to run wire in the brick wall. The problem is that the switch uses a solid state relay, and the leak voltage of the relay is high enough to flash the cf ballasts and over a short time burn them up. Does anyone know of someone who makes a radio remote switch that uses a standard relay?


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## highlandsun (Jan 27, 2003)

Just add a mechanical relay to the output of the solid state relay...


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## EMPOWERTORCH (Feb 5, 2003)

Some of My CF Bulbs are 10 years or more. I prefer daylight simulation bulbs or 4000k bulbs if I can get them, as the 3200k bulbs seem almost orange. My oldest bulb was bought in 1989 and only failed when it's tubes came unstuck from the base. The lifetime is pretty good on the Osram PL-S and PL-D bulbs that remain. I've used CF candle bulbs in lights where previously the bulb would stick out. They haven't perfected the technology yet, but it is certainly an improvement on the old Edisonian technology. Before long solid state LED bulbs such as TheLEDLight.com's Decor LED will have efficiencies approaching CF bulbs, but with 10 times the lifespan and the ability to run off non-mains supplies. 
In the meantime, I'm looking to buy some 23W CF bulbs for my parents, and they would like 4000 or 6000K colour temperature. Does anyone know where I can get such bulbs? They must be 240V BC (B22) fitting.

Matt.


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## BuddTX (Feb 5, 2003)

I have 5 of the floodlight on the outside of my house (sylvania I think).

I like getting 75 watts of power from 16 watts of energy!


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## INRETECH (Feb 5, 2003)

I did the same, replace everything in my house with those small CCFL and the operating time hasn't been the time they claim

Also, the color output of the CCFL are TERRIBLE; I used an optical spectometer on them - and they have three very very narrow spikes

http://www.inretech.com/pictures/ccfl.jpg

very depressing


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## Vegeta (Feb 5, 2003)

I have been using two 200W equivalent CF bulbs from Lights of America for over year in a living room torch light and I haven't had any problems with them yet. They consume 42W each and take about half a second to light up. The annoying thing is that it takes about a minute to reach full brightness. I got them from Walmart but I haven't seen them in stock for months.


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## EMPOWERTORCH (Feb 10, 2003)

A good alternative to CF bulbs are Cold Cathode lights. They run on low voltage and are extremely compact (4mm diameter tube and a small pcb, and therefore could be concealed in all sorts of places. They run off 12V, and therefore can be used as emrgency lighting.
They come in cool white and a variety of colours.


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## Lurker (Feb 11, 2003)

Thanks to this thread, I have been inspired to do some more experimentation with CF lights and trying to convert more of my house lighting over to them. I think I can get more than half of my most-used lights converted without too much trouble or expense or resistance from my wife (who is very particular about the lighting). The rest I probably won't bother with at this time for one reason or another. I haven't yet settled on my favorite brands and models, but I have made some progress and can post some tips:

(1) I have found that I typically need to choose a brighter CF bulb than the incandescent I am replacing. For instance, I replace 60w incandescents with 75w (equivalent) CFs and 100w with 120w. I think they are fudging the equivalent watts ratings a little by comparing them to relatively dim bulbs of the selected wattage (such as "lont-life" incandescent bulbs). Going brighter also builds in some cushion to allow for the fact that the lights do not start at full brightness when turned on and also may not output their maximum brightness depending on their age. If brightness is not important in a particular application, you may not care, but for reading or working lights, you may want to keep this in mind and go a little higher on the equivalent wattage rating. Of course going brighter will reduce the energy savings a bit, so don't go crazy with this. [edit: I have found that Sylvania brand lights really are as at least as bright as claimed]

(2) Good places to shop (based on stock in my local stores this weekend): 
- Target: they have mostly GE and Phillips and have some good prices particularly for multi-packs.
- Lowes: best place to find Sylvania.
- Home Depot: mostly Commercial Electric brand.
- WalMart: mostly Lights of America brand, some GE.

(3) Based on a Consumer Reports article and some posts in this thread, I won't buy "Lights of America" brand CFs.

(4) I did not like the Commercial Electric brand 75w equivalent spiral lamp in the "Daylight" color option (high color temperature) simply because they were too blue and made my kitchen colors look funny. However, they probably would have been keepers in the regular color option. At about 5 inches long, they fit well in all of the fixtures that had given me problems with the larger 6 inch-long Sunbeam CFs. I am currently experimenting with some GE 75-watt spiral bulbs instead.


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## Lurker (Feb 12, 2003)

Bargain alert:

My local Home Depot yesterday had a big display of Commercial Electric brand spiral CFLs 23w=100w in 2-packs for $6.50 per 2-pack. That's $3.25 per bulb!! 

They are pretty small, the same size as their 75w equivalent bulb which is small, too. They are 5" long, so they are easy to fit and rated for enclosed fixtures. They are the ones in the yellow packaging, so they are the basic model, rated for a little lower service life compared to the green package, I think it was 6,000 hours, but a bargain at that price. These are the cheapest ones I have found so far.

I got a couple and put them in my enclosed kitchen ceiling light that needed to be a bit brighter. It is a tight fit in there for any CFL, but these are the smallest lights of this brightness I have seen so far, so these lights are letting me get the most light out of that fixture.

So far I like them. They take a half-second to light, start out dim and take about 30 seconds to warm-up and I like the color fine. Their performance seems very comparable to other CFLs I have used, particularly the GE ones, with maybe better color than the GEs. Comparing them directly to a 100w incandescent soft-white, they seem a little dimmer and just slightly pink, but not enough that you would notice the difference without a direct comparison. These lights should work well in a variety of applications.

This looks like a good opportunity to load-up for very little money.


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## Willmore (Feb 13, 2003)

EMPOWERTORCH,

There is a small candelabra replacement bulb that I got at Home Depot a month back which has an overall envelope the same size as a normal candelabra bulb and came in the medium and small Edison bases. I got one of the normal medium sized bulbs just to play with it. I think it was $5 or so. Here's the info on the bulb:
Lights of America
2107CR Self-Ballasted Lamp
120V 60Hz 7W 0.09A(492)

The tube is inside of a glass envelope (giving the normal bulb shape--say for clipping a shade to) and is a tightly would CCFL tube! There must be a little ballast/HV circuit built into the base.

I've been running mine 24*7 since I got it as a test. They're rated for 6k hours, so we'll see if that works out in a few more months...


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## pkkrusty (Feb 13, 2003)

Well, all these lights have the 3 year or 5 year or 7 year gaurantees, right? I save the UPC code from the package and my receipt, and thus get a new one whenever a cheapo brand burns out. Which in my case hasn't happened but once. Home Depot sells those little spiral tube ones in 4 packs. While they take a while to warm up, they really put out light. I'd vote for those as the most useful ones I've bought.


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## Evan (Feb 13, 2003)

I've tried "Comercial Electric" bulbs from Home Depot. The light was so yellow I could't see a yellow highlighter on newsprint.


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## Willmore (Feb 13, 2003)

pkkrusty,

Mine only took a long time to warn up the first few times. Now it still doesn't provide the instant on type of light that CF's can, but it's better than it was. Maybe you just need to cook yours some.


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## Lurker (Feb 15, 2003)

I finally got a chance to try the Sylvania Dulux EL Twist lamp (15w=60W eqivalent, 10,000 hour life, $9 at Lowes) and I am very impressed with this light - easily my favorite so far and worth a little more money. It: 
- has practically no noticeable warm-up period
- turns on instantly (with just a brief flicker)
- has a very pure white 3000K color tempurature and 
- has excellent brightness that may even exceed a typical 60W incancescent bulb.
They really got this one right. You could replace an incandescent bulb with this and maybe not even notice that you are using a different kind of light. 

The only limitation is that they are labelled "not for use in indoor enclosed fixtures" (The Commercial Electric CFLs are still the winner for that). That warning is on the package, but actually, on the ballast is says "not for use in fully enclosed recessed fixtures" which is the same warning on the GE packaging.

My problem is that I have a lot of enclosed fixtures. They are not recessed, but they are enclosed in glass globes. Does anybody know what happens if you put a Sylvania CFL in something like that? I mean if the only problem is like a 10% or 20% reduction in expected life, then I would probably use more of the Sylvania lights. But maybe there is some better reason not to put them in enclosed fixtures. Anybody know?


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## Willmore (Feb 16, 2003)

Wow, for one of those, you can get 5 of the comercial electric 60w equiv. bulbs. Are they that much better, Lurker?


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## earl (Feb 17, 2003)

Along that same vein, does anyone know where I can get a generic schematic for a compact light? We took one apart, and it was a fairly simple circuit, with only two transistors or FET's. I found one, but it uses an IC.


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## Brock (Feb 17, 2003)

Lurker, I think the problem is heat build-up. So if it is outside or not really hot, or has some sort of venting it shouldn't change life to much, but if it small and airtight it will reduce life. Most of the CF's that I have had go have been in sealed globes, most likely overheating issues.


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## Lurker (Feb 18, 2003)

> Originally posted by Willmore:
> *Wow, for one of those, you can get 5 of the comercial electric 60w equiv. bulbs. Are they that much better, Lurker?*


<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No, they are not 5 times better, but I am not consistently seeing that much price difference in my local stores, either. I spotted a 3-pack of the Sylvania 13W mini-twist bulbs for about $15 at Lowes. That's just $1.75 more per bulb than the best multi-pack prices I've seen for Commercial Electric locally.

The Sylvanias are definitely noticeably better in my opinion and I would definitely go out of my way and pay more for them. The color is almost perfect. The start-up and warm-up are amlost perfect. They are amazing. That doesn't mean I am unhappy with my Commercial Electric bulbs, and if I lived alone the difference would be less of an issue, but one major factor in my house is whether my wife accepts the new bulbs or not. 

From the point-of-view of my wife, CFLs in general are not very good because when you hit the switch you don't get light immediately and then you get dim, off-color light for a while. That's an annoyance to her, which is understandable. And she doesn't care that much about the savings of $60 in energy cost and several tons of carbon dioxide emissions per bulb if all the colors in her newly-redecorated living room look even slightly off to any guests we might have over.

However, with the Sylvanias, I don't have to debate with my wife over each and every bulb I replace. I just stick one in and she never seems to notice there's been a change. That is definitely worth a premium price to me.

But even with the wife issue set aside, I would prefer the Sylanias and pay more for them. And even if you don't have a similar issue with someone you live with, I highly recommend at least trying them out. I think you will be a convert. I think of these bulbs as being an investment that I will be living with for many years to come. If I am going to flip a switch 1000 times on a Sylvania bulb and be even slightly happier with it each and every time, then it is worth a few dollars more to me for that bulb. I also believe they run more efficiently and will last longer than any bulbs you can get for less money, so that is worth something, too.

[In case this is starting to sound like advertising, I should say I am not affiliated with Sylvania]


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## Lurker (Feb 18, 2003)

> Originally posted by Brock:
> *Lurker, I think the problem is heat build-up. ....*


<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thanks, Brock. I guess my fear is if there could be a fire-hazard or something. Barring that, I am willing to at least try them out in my enclosed fixtures. I noticed the lower-wattage Sylvania 13W mini-twists have less of a warning on the packaging, maybe due to the lower heat generated from the lower power consumption. I think I will try those out, but only in single-bulb enclosed fixtures. The "reliable operating temperature range" only goes up to 100 degrees Farenheit on my Sylvania, but at least that gives me something to try to measure to see see if they are working properly in that application. For comparison, the "optimum operating temperature range" on my Commercial Electrics (which are rated for enclosed fixtures) goes up to 122F.

If only someone would market a replacement globe that was vented, this would be a no-brainer.


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## James Van Artsdalen (Feb 18, 2003)

> Originally posted by Willmore:
> *Wow, for one of those, you can get 5 of the commercial electric 60w equiv. bulbs. Are they that much better, Lurker?*


<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Don't forget to count other costs of bulb replacements.

I have several friends with 20' (or higher!) ceilings in some places. Replacing these bulbs is not trivial - one friend has to hire a handyman to do it.

For many handicapped people any light bulb on an ordinary ceiling might as well be 20' high - they're going to have to get someone else to replace it.

Once replacement costs are significant compared to the cost of the bulb a truly long life fluorescent or HID may look pretty good compared to an ordinary cheap incandescent. Put another way, incandescent bulbs may not make sense except in the case where the cost of replacement is essentially zero, and that's not necessarily the case for all residential applications.


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## Lurker (Feb 18, 2003)

James, your point is well taken. I think Willmore's question compares 2 different compact fluorescent bulbs, but I agree that these things can save you a lot of time and money in multiple ways, any one of which could justify their cost. Fewer bulb changes, lower operating cost, reduced heat output (that drives up cooling costs), less environmental impact and reduced dependance on fossil fuels are the ones that come to mind. Basically these are a good investment that will essentially put money in your pocket (through reduced expenses) and save you time and hassle as well.


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## James S (Feb 18, 2003)

There's too many James's on this board now




I keep thinking you're talking to me!

And beyond the pain of changing them there is the heat regular bulbs make. As I said above somewhere in this thread, my AC bill really did go down and my comfort in the summer go up when I switched over my maily used lights!

Course, now that my heat pump is not working and it's the worst of the winter I'm thinking of breaking out the old heater bulbs again!


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## [email protected] (Feb 18, 2003)

Well,



change your name to Klaatu...


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## James S (Feb 18, 2003)

Bart, where did you find that picture of me in my pajamas?

lol


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## Willmore (Feb 21, 2003)

James Van,

I meant the comercial electric compact fluorescent bulbs when I said 5 to 1 price difference. Unless the run time is huge, that's a signifigant price difference.


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## Lurker (Feb 24, 2003)

The Sylvania 13W mini-twist bulbs are good, but do not quite measure-up to the regular 15W Sylvania Twist Bulbs. They start a little slower and have a cooler color which is not quite as pleasant. The mini-twists compare favorably to the GE, commercial Electric and Sunbeam lights I have tried, but the regular Sylvania is still the standout. I guess making something half as big requires some trade-offs. The mini-twists do seem to work well in my glass globe enclosed lights. They don't seem to run hot (as far as I can tell, but time will be the real test) and the globe even improves the color somewhat.

The next type I will try will be the Circline kind (the fluorescent tube is a big hoop the size of a frisbee) to go into a torchier floor lamp I have that currently houses a 90-watt halogen screw-base bulb. I bought a Sylvania 30W (100-watt equivalent) circline along with a socket extender and I'll have to replace the lamp's dimmer switch, so the rest of the conversion will be on a when-I-can-get-around-to-it basis, but preliminary testing has gone well.


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## James S (Feb 24, 2003)

I agree completely about the sylvania bulbs. Best CF as far as color and brightness that I own. I will definitely be getting more. It's more an absence of color actually. I can tell you that the marathon bulbs are green and that the GE bulbs are violet, but the sylvania bulbs are just white.

Please post again when you've had a chance to do the torchier conversion. I've got several of the el-cheapo 300 watt models that I'd love to get rid of but this house has no overhead fixtures in it, so they are sometimes necessary. However, my family seems to think that they work best if left on all the time... I'll be interested to hear how well they work. I currently own one of those very expensive dimmable GE fluorescent torchiers. The lamp is quite nice, very solid and stable, but the light quality from the thing is really lacking. It's been relegated to the guest room and only used when sorting laundry in there.


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## Lurker (Feb 25, 2003)

*CFL torchier*

I finished my torchier lamp conversion and tested out the light last night and this morning. I am very happy with how it turned out. The 30W Sylvania Dulux Circline CFL has typical excellent Sylvania performance - Which is to say that it starts instantly, has no noticeable warm-up period and the color is pure white (3000K)- a slightly cooler color than incandescent lighting. It is also very bright. To my eye noticeably brighter than a 100W incandescent lightbulb, so it puts out quite a lot of good light. There are also higher and lower wattage circlines to choose from. And the circline bulb shape seems very well suited to the torchier lamp shape. It would also work well in a table lamp. By the way, the bulb and ballast are seperable and the ballast is rated to last 50,000 hours, so you can save money replacing just the bulb every 10,000 hours.

Some tips if you are considering doing this:
1) You will probably have to bypass or replace a dimmer switch if your torchier has one. You should be competent at wiring if you attempt this. Faulty wiring can endanger human life.
2) Depending on the geometry of the particular lamp and the particular CFL used, you may need something called a "socket extender" which will lift the CFL about 1 to 1.5 inches higher out of the light socket. They can be purchased at hardware stores for about $2.
3) the torchier I converted has a frosted glass basin under the light bulb. This allows the lamp to radiate light in all directions (up, down and to the sides) instead of just up like many torchier lamps with metal basins do. This kind of design will probably provide the most usable light from any particular light bulb.

James S, it's too bad your dimmable CFL torchier wasn't a good light. I have seen some at the home centers going for about $50 with a square shaped dimmable fluorescent bulb which I believe is called a 2D bulb. Is that the kind you have? They look pretty good to me, maybe not the brightest, but I have not used one at home.

This conversion was obviously the most involved one I have done, since the other ones just involved shopping for the CFL, unscrewing the old bulb and screwing in the new bulb. I have about $20 in this conversion including the bulb, switch and socket extender and about 30 minutes of work plus some wiring supplies. Unless you are starting with a lamp that you really like, if it has a dimmer switch, it may make as much sense to just buy a new lamp that is already fluorescent (if you can find one that is satisfactory). But one way or another, it is definitely worth doing something about these power-hungry incandescent torchier lamps. 300 watts is a lot for home lighting and the potential savings is huge.


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## Quickbeam (Feb 25, 2003)

*Re: CFL torchier*

"I currently own one of those very expensive dimmable GE fluorescent torchiers."

So do we. It serves as the main light in our livingroom. I love the thing. Got it on clearance at Lowes before the newer model came out.


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## bushcamp (Feb 26, 2003)

*Re: CFL torchier*

hello all

inre the sylvania twist and deluxe cf, are there any other chains beside lowes which carry. the closest lowes i know of is 260 miles from here. in addition, has anyone found a good online source for the sylvanias?

thanks in advance/i'll. oops, one more question, please.
has anybody noticed any interference on the radio and on the tv from thes sylvanias?

now, as i was saying: thanks in advance/i'll stay tuned


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## Lurker (Feb 26, 2003)

*Re: CFL torchier*

Bushcamp, I have not seen the Sylvania CFLs at any other major chain stores, but it is such a major brand that it is likely sold near you. Try contacting any lighting stores or hardware stores listed in your phone book. A simple search on the internet will also turn up many mail-order sources, but I have not used any yet.

Interferance is not a problem with the new electronic ballasts. I have not had any problems whatsoever. You can hear a slight amount of static on a portable radio the instant the light is turned on, but then it is perfectly clear.


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## James S (Feb 26, 2003)

*Re: CFL torchier*

I've had no problems with interferance with anything but that GE dimmanble torch lamp. Thats not radio, but rather powerline. Turning that light on will put a completely stop to every X10 signal on the whole block /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif


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## highlandsun (Feb 26, 2003)

Well, I tried to order the universal dimmer switch (link is here, again: http://www.maxlite.com/Pages-html/PR%20Stories/DimAll%20PR.html ) but was told they won't be in stock till June. Rather disappointing....


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## Lurker (Feb 26, 2003)

Has anyone seen the Sylvania bulbs in their warmer 2700K color temperature? I have only seen the 3000K bulbs, but am curious about the 2700K. It seems like that would be essentially identical to the color of an incandescent light bulb. The 2700K bulbs I have seen from other manufacturers are nice, but typically have an odd color tint, but maybe the Sylvania 2700Ks are different.


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## MarcV (Feb 26, 2003)

Color temperature is exactly why we use Paralite bulbs here in our basement office. They're supposedly 5,000K and do seem to be about the color of the sunshine outside. 

These are pretty expensive, I think about $13 each for the 20 watters. We have 45 of them in 5" cans in our dropped ceiling, and have been using them for about three years. They do burn out regularly, though not so often now that I replaced our electronic dimmer switches with the $0.79 simple toggles from the hardware store. 

The supplier has changed oems at least twice in the past three years. The bulbs I get from them now seem brighter than previous ones, but the difference is magnified by the fact that these things dim over time. They probably should all be replaced after three years. We use them about 10 hours per day, 5 or 6 days each week. Somebody with a calculator could estimate the number of hours that adds up to. Of the 45-50, I'd say we have about 3 burnouts each month. Only one was DOA and the supplier replaced it without any hassle.

I put a pair of the 55 watt bulbs in the garage and they were terrific but my wife demanded the 120w incandescants back. She can't tolerate the slow warmup (our garage is kept at 50 degrees F in winter). So I moved the bulbs to a spare room where we hide the ethernet switch and wireless hubs. They're terrific there, really bright (about an 8 x 10 ft area) and are the same color as the rest of our home office. Oh, yes, the whole area is about 2,200 ft sq.


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## Willmore (Mar 3, 2003)

I've got a house with a few rooms where there is no light in the ceiling, so I've used floor standing tourcheirs with the circuline lights in them (I think I have 6 in service). I switched over the them from the normal CF bulbs because they were lower profile and would fit under the upper 'rim' of the 'bowl' on the top of the light. My fiance and I are relatively tall (I'm 6'0" and she's 5'8") so we could see the CF bulbs stick out over the rim and the difference in brightness was distracting and, sometimes, painful. The circuline bulbs really did the trick. I didn't use socket extenders, but came close to needing them--the bulbs fit almost in contact with the 'bowl'. They actually look good that way. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif The 'bowl's for my lights are translucent and do a pretty good job of spreading out the light, but there is still a nice 'hot spot' ring around them that looks like a halo. Awwww, cute... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

I'm down to four incandescent bulbs in main service in my house. There are three chandelier type fixtures which have incandescents, but they are all on dimmers and are not necessary to illuminate the rooms in which they reside--they are the 'formal' lighting, but informally, we use floor and table mounted lamps. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

The bulbs that I haven't taken out of service are:
1) 200W in the ceiling of my garage--this one is awaiting my construction permit to allow me to put some outlets in my ceiling (can you believe a 16 year old house with *no* outlets in the ceiling? Where do you plug in the garage door opener?) Once they are in place, I get my garage door opener and 7 bays of 2 x 34W T8 flourescent bulbs. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
2) the 40W long live halogen bulb in my motion sensor light covering the front yard--CF won't start fast enough in the ~10 degree (F) weather to be useful and the on/off cycling would *kill* them. This one stays
3) In the little fixture going down to the basement--just can't seem to find a small enough bulb that puts out enough light....
4) The can in the ceiling over the kitchen sink--I don't like the light output or the focus of any of the CF spots that I've yet seen. I've currently got a very nice 15 degree 60W halogen in there that I'm quite happy with, so it'll probably stay.

Everything else if of a more modern lighting technology. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif I can't wait to get some time this spring to design and build my 'generic HID ballast' for the slug of 35 to 70 W HPS and MH bulbs I have lying around taunting me (tell tale heart).


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## Lurker (Mar 3, 2003)

Willmore, I also tried the normal CFLs in the torchier with the same result - it stuck out too far. My 30 watt circline is a great fit, though. I could just barely get mine in without the socket extender, but opted to use one to eliminate that bright ring on the bowl. Personal preference.

I took a closer look at those GE dimmable fluorescent torchiers with the 55 watt 2D bulb at Lowes this weekend. They were about $50 and looked very good. I think they give up a little efficiency with the dimmable ballast, though, because I think my 30-watt circline is putting out a little more light than that 55 watt 2D bulb. Hard to tell when not side-by-side, though.

Home Depot also has a similar light with a 55 watt "2C" bulb (which must be a copy of the idea behind the 2D). It was $39 and I liked it even a little better than the GE torchiers. I am happy with my converted torchier, but if I needed another one or if I needed something dimmable, those would be good choices.

Also, I was in Sears and noticed an interesting product. It was a device that claims to be able to convert any metal lamp into a touch-lamp and the package said it works with CFL bulbs. It installs by screwing it into the socket and then screwing the bulb into it. It cost about $9 or $10 and raises the bulb about 1.25 - 1.5 inches. There is no dimming, just on and off. It looks like the lamp's original socket needs to have a metal exterior surface for it to work. Kind of neat, but I didn't get one.

There is also a similar product at Home Depot that turns a light (CFL compatible) on at dusk and then off after an adjustable timed delay period (1-6 hrs). Could be good for a porch light (or maybe even Christmas lights).


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## highlandsun (Mar 3, 2003)

What do you folks know about UV output from these bulbs? I have a friend who has Lupus, and sunlight and UV light aggravates her condition. She has a hard time in most department stores now because they tend to have regular fluorescent tubes in exposed ceiling fixtures. I guess not everyone who has Lupus gets affected this way, but it's particularly bad with her.


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## Willmore (Mar 5, 2003)

My understanding is that as far as UV output goes it's (from least to most):
standard incandescent
flourescent
filtered HID
halogen incandescent
germacidal and special UV lamps.

I don't have any specific data on CF lamps vs normal FL lamps. I can say that a single pane of glass or plastic or even a bounce off of a wall or *anything* will reduce UV to almost nothing.

Avoid halogens, I guess.


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## Lurker (Mar 5, 2003)

*UV*

Highlandsun, many retailers have begun using halogen lighting in display cases and to spotlight mannequins and many other things on display. I wonder if your friend's problem has more to do with halogen lighting than it does with fluorescent.


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## Willmore (Mar 5, 2003)

*Re: UV*

Highlandsun, check out Don Klipstein's web site (hope I spelled that right). He's got a lot of more detailed info there.


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## highlandsun (Mar 6, 2003)

*Re: UV*

Thanks for the info. I didn't realize halogen incandescents were worse. Thanks also for the pointers.


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## Willmore (Mar 6, 2003)

*Re: UV*

'Incandescents' work by being 'black body radiators'. Simply put, they emit light because they're hot. The hotter an object, the more light it emits *at all frequencies*. So, a 3200 degree light will emit more IR than a 2700 degree light (of the same area, not wattage). 

No, that's not all there is to it, the curve of the spectra has a slope coming from the red end and rising towards the blue end. The peak shifts further and further towards the blue end as the temp goes up.

The trick that 'halogen' bulbs use to be more efficient is to run hotter. That allows the 'hump' to move towards the blue and--for a constant wattage--put out more of their energy as visible light.

Now, there is light put out above the 'hump', but it does drop off quickly, so it's not normally considered. But, if the hump is in the blue, that means there will be some UV component to it. If you look at a 'normal' incandescent bulb, the hump is much further back towards the red end and there is *very* little UV output.

So, the UV output of a halogen incandescent VS a normal incandescent is huge.

If you look at the little halogen bulb/reflector units, most of them have a little filter attached to the front. That serves two purposes. The first is safety--halogens run their envelopes at much higher temps than normal incandescents, so they can actually throw bits of hot glass out that are hot enough to start things on fire--should they shatter. The second is to act as a UV filter. UV damages the color dyes in paint, carpet, fabric, etc. so it's generally not wanted. It can also dammage the cornea of the eye, so that's a bad thing, too. Then there are people like your friend...

The other main family of lighting technology is the atomic bandgap family. This has the discharge bulbs and the LEDs. They emit light by electron transitions. For gasses, it's because of an electron that was stimulated from it's normal rest start to a higher state who fell back down and emitted a photon (which gets rid of the energy difference in the two 'orbits' or energy states). For LEDs, it takes place in a junction between two disimilar materials with different 'bands' of conductive valences. Electrons passing through the junction drop from the conductive band of the first material and fall into the band of the second material. The difference in energy of the two bands results in a voltage drop over the junction--this is the 'diode' junction or the D in LED.

This family has the nice property of emitting photons of very well characterized energies--unlike a black body which emits photons as part of a random process. So, LEDs and gas discharges can produce well controlled 'colors' of light. Don't want UV, fine, use a gas or design a diode that doesn't emit in the UV. Problem solved. For thermal emitters, it'll be a constant struggle between efficiency and UV output.

Then there is the new family which is a bit of both. Think of a hot filament (a black body radiator) sitting in the middle of a mirror'd cylender. The cylender is really a filter that lets out photons of a certain energy range and reflects back all others. The reflected photons will hit the filament and heat it. So, their energy is recycled. Maybe next time it'll come out as a fequency that can get throught the filter.

Sandia labs are working on a system like this. It would allow most of the flexability of the bandgap family and some of the wide banded characteristics of the thermal family. Pretty cool. Then, if you don't want UV, you don't get UV. heck, you don't have to have IR if you don't want it!


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## highlandsun (Mar 6, 2003)

*Re: UV*

Yes, this is the same concept that GE uses in their HIR bulbs, a dichroic coating that reflects IR but passes everything else. The IR gets reflected back onto the filament, making it burn hotter/brighter without needing more electricity. Forgot about that. But HIR was announced 3-4 years ago and I've only recently seen any products that claim to have it, and they're still expensive as all hell.


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## bushcamp (Mar 19, 2003)

thought you all might be interested that i was able to find a full line of sylvania cfl bulbs at lite-house.com - there were none available locally at all - locally meaning within 100mile radius within the united states.

a little less that two hundred miles to the southwest in grand forks north dakota i was able to find a good inventory of the deluxe el twist and mini twist sylvania cfl bulbs at a home improvement centre called "Menards"

for any one else having a hard time finding these bulbs i hope this info helps. the sylvania bulbs have been very impressive. we also picked up some 10 watt ge cfl bulbs tonight. obviously we have less that two hours experience with them but the light is very white and even.

hope this helps the roughly 40 to 50 per cent of americans who live in communities of less than 100,000 people. for canadians, when i get to winnipeg, saskatoon, and edmonton in a few weeks, i will post again if i find a good inventory of sylvanias or other items of interest. i was in beaver lumber/home hardware, zellers, and canadian tire in kenora a week ago, but the weather started closing in so we had to get going back home on the ice road across lake of the woods. so i have nothing to report from those stores.


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