# 100W Chip with Separate Driver vs 100W chip with On-Board Driver 110v. Which is Best?



## Build (Apr 6, 2017)

Hello, 

I've been using square 56x52mm 100w led chips with separate 110 VAC driver power supply with good results. I've noticed a lot of people are using the larger rectangular 160x45mm 100w chips with on-chip power supply. These run directly on 110 VAC. 

Was wonder what everyone thought of them? I'm assuming they will need substantially larger heat sink/fans? Thanks


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## STO (Apr 7, 2017)

Not sure if these are the type you mean but big clive did a teardown of a on board driver LED COB recently, he goes pretty in depth into the pros and cons along with a schematic. Link


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## FRITZHID (Apr 7, 2017)

STO said:


> Not sure if these are the type you mean but big clive did a teardown of a on board driver LED COB recently, he goes pretty in depth into the pros and cons along with a schematic. Link




+1

Yea, i watched those vids, he makes some good points on them. they are fairly new so i'd say stick with whats been working and give new tech time to work it's bugs out.


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## Build (Apr 10, 2017)

Hey thanks for the video. I'm mostly concerned about the longevity and these new ones probably won't last as long. The ones I've seen have a lifespan of 10,000 hours vs 50,000 for the older style. I know both ratings are pushing it, but is an indicator. My old style have been going strong for over 2 years with no perceived reduction of light with my light meter test. I run each with a large finned heatsink and fan, the heat is very consistent. I did burn up a couple driver/transformers which are sealed units. I have fans on them, but they aren't the best design for a heatsink. 

Since I'm adding more lights instead of replacing my old ones, I may try the on-board 150w and work up a finned heatsink/fan for the longer chip. They are under $5 each, and I'm now paying $15 for just a 100w driver. Apparently they've been using these type in China for many years, but weren't available elsewhere. I'll add some protection in the input to lesson the chance for failure.


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## ssanasisredna (Apr 12, 2017)

That much flicker at that low of frequency will give many people headaches after extended exposure. What is your intended use?


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## Build (Apr 13, 2017)

Ssanasisredna, They will be used to add more light to a large workshop. I was hoping to quash any flicker with some capacitors. Do you think it could work?


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## ssanasisredna (Apr 13, 2017)

Build said:


> Ssanasisredna, They will be used to add more light to a large workshop. I was hoping to quash any flicker with some capacitors. Do you think it could work?



I would say you definitely do not want these in a workshop where you need good visual acuity.

Could you quash flicker with capacitors ... maybe, the issue you would likely run into is that you would then end up running the module at a much high power than it was designed for, anywhere from 50% to 2x depending on how they designed it and what capacitors you use. If you had access to the inner workings and could adjust the current (maybe), but they appear to be sealed. Used infrequently the higher power is going to reduce the life. A lot .... anything would be a guess.


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## Build (Apr 13, 2017)

Ok, that makes sense. I guess I could also add a resistor to drop some voltage but I don't want to make this too complicated. I know a dedicated power supply would be best.

What do you think of this write up about using them? https://mattgadient.com/2016/12/06/color-me-impressed-looking-at-the-150w-smart-ic-led-cob-110v-ac/


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## ssanasisredna (Apr 14, 2017)

It's a write up that adds no real information to the topic.


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## Build (Apr 27, 2017)

I picked up a few 50w driver-onboard leds to try. I'm using them as a high mounted fill light to supplement my other lights. They work very well and I can't detect any flicker since they're lost in the mix of other lights. When I have them on by themselves it does get a bit bothersome with the subtle flicker over time. I wouldn't use them by themselves. These do require a heatsink and fan to keep the temperature in check.


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## degarb (May 10, 2017)

ssanasisredna said:


> That much flicker at that low of frequency will give many people headaches after extended exposure. What is your intended use?



What is the exact biological mechanism for flicker to head ache? Head ache, as I see it, is a swelling of blood vessels.

I can see flicker triggering annoyance, a psychological failure-whereby, psychosomatically, the brain attacks itself and own body, much like autoimmune disorder.

I guess, as a business, mechanism would not matter-only that there is a connection.

For me, noticeable flicker makes tracking hand movement a tad harder, or perhaps, just a bit more annoying. However, psychosomatic issues with those around me, makes the job 1000x times harder. So, I have little love, for such conditions.... My eye doctor loves me, because I offer consistent data: I don't guess and discount my own subjective. So, I am interested if the flicker link is real, or just a trigger for a common mild mental illness.


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## ssanasisredna (May 10, 2017)

degarb said:


> What is the exact biological mechanism for flicker to head ache? Head ache, as I see it, is a swelling of blood vessels.
> 
> I can see flicker triggering annoyance, a psychological failure-whereby, psychosomatically, the brain attacks itself and own body, much like autoimmune disorder.
> 
> ...



Eye strain is a significant cause. The small movements of your eyes (saccades) are impacted by flicker, even if the flicker is not visible. This will be most pronounced if you are doing things like reading, using fine motor skills, etc. The eye is overshooting/undershooting the target and resultant focus issues.

It is not exclusively from blood vessels swelling (that's migraines). From medicalnewstoday.com "Primary headaches are stand-alone illnesses caused directly by the overactivity of, or problems with, structures in the head that are *pain-sensitive. This includes the blood vessels, muscles, and nerves of the head and neck. They may also result from changes in chemical activity in the brain."

*Flicker will impact the actions of several muscles in the eye and based on this quote, it seems quite reasonable it will cause headaches.

I suffered through about a week+ of unexplained headaches late in the afternoon. (I very rarely get headaches except caffeine withdrawal). One day I realized I had put an AC driver LED bulb into my desk lamp to do some testing (It has high flicker). Changed the bulb, no more headaches. Put it back, headache came back. The headaches were not instantaneous and hit in the late afternoon as it was winter and I get a fair amount of sun in the office earlier in the day. Once I lost the sun, the desk lamp, even with the overhead light on would be the dominant source for my work material.

AC driver bulbs without filtering caps have a ton of flicker ... far worse than old magnetic ballast fluorescents.


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## degarb (May 10, 2017)

Very good reply. 


I am guessing mixing different flicker prone led lamps, would probably balance out this effect, in a manner much like white noise. I can't see that the pwm would sync up. The ac driver flicker is from pwm, not the 60 hz ac, right? 

Now, to use smart phone to measure it. Video is best way?


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## degarb (May 10, 2017)

A quick Google, I found Viso Systems app on iPhone, and https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.inq.FlickerLuxmeter for Droid. The Droid shows much flicker on the house led bulb. Will take time to figure out what the number means. ... This room, this bulb is 1 of 4 lamps in the area. 

For me, my phone is the only lone lighting source that I routinely use. Eventually, if led worklights break 80 to 100k lumens, I will be using only one led light per area--then, flicker will be a big concern for me. Pixels on movies probably still light in series on led screens, like the crt. But that cannot still be true, so unsure how phone and tablet flicker now works, being that the backlighting may be a monolithic led source. Hmm, my education in this area is a bit out outdated.
Nevertheless, migraines from phone use should be the canary in the coal mine, on this issue. I have had maybe two bad experiences of too much phone research, which I had chalked up to lack of exercise for the day, rather than a flicker issue.


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## ssanasisredna (May 10, 2017)

degarb said:


> Very good reply.
> 
> 
> I am guessing mixing different flicker prone led lamps, would probably balance out this effect, in a manner much like white noise. I can't see that the pwm would sync up. The ac driver flicker is from pwm, not the 60 hz ac, right?
> ...



The flicker is purely from the AC line. It will be in sync.


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## degarb (May 11, 2017)

ssanasisredna said:


> The flicker is purely from the AC line. It will be in sync.



Hmm. So then synced 60 hz? This means big future problem. 

How do you measure it? I will need to pay attention to the bulb review video and Clive. So far, the android app is off the flicker charts, but I can't detect and flicker. Probably, too fast to be of concern, or app is junk. Or maybe, I am immune to imperceptible flicker over mere hours.


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## degarb (May 11, 2017)

On an off note, in former decades, the flicker from florescent overheads was often palpable. I don't feel the flicker in my gut with led as I would under the old tube. As a healthy young male, I don't recall headaches. I do recall intense discomfort from the intense headaches and migraines from females around me, including my mother who did work under florescents.


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## Julian Holtz (May 23, 2017)

Here's some info you might find interesting. I basically built my own driver for direct AC LEDs.

http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb...rectAC-LED-modules-without-driver-and-flicker

http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb...Epistar-LEDs&p=5002324&viewfull=1#post5002324


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