# Somebody else like the "old school" vernier calipers ...



## wquiles (Mar 28, 2013)

Looks like Barry and I are not the only ones that like the old school tools 

http://blog.makezine.com/review/tool-review-mitutoyo-vernier-caliper/


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## CMAG (Mar 28, 2013)

+1 easy to clean and no teeth to skip


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## Mattaus (Mar 29, 2013)

I'm 28 and I think the vernier's are the best measurement tools ever. I have a cheap digital gauge, and my fathers Japanese made verniers (can't recall the model). No surprises which set I think are more accurate...


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## Silgt (Mar 29, 2013)

I owned a couple of old school 6" Mitutoyo calipers for a number of years now, and I much prefer this over the new digital calipers.

Do they make a larger 12" model as well? That's something that I would like to pick up soon

Sent from my GT-N7105 using Tapatalk 2


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## archimedes (Mar 29, 2013)

wquiles said:


> Looks like Barry and I are not the only ones that like the old school tools
> 
> http://blog.makezine.com/review/tool-review-mitutoyo-vernier-caliper/



... although I don't think I'll be using mine as a scribe ... :duh2: :scowl:


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## Kestrel (Mar 29, 2013)

Although my only calipers are 'dial', my micrometer is vernier rather than digital and I am quite pleased with both of them as they are.
I have no interest in having a digital one of either - I like the old-school stuff myself, thanks for the link.


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## will (Mar 29, 2013)

I learned on the 'old school' calipers. Still - I prefer the dial calipers...


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## precisionworks (Mar 30, 2013)

Silgt said:


> Do they make a larger 12" model as well?



For the really big jobs Starrett makes the 123Z-72 (72" range) heavy duty master vernier, $12,301 at your local distributor (not likely to be an in stock item). The 60" Mitu Model 160-111 seems like quite the bargain at only $3,030. I've seen only one vernier that could measure 120", cannot remember the maker, but it had built in hoist suspension points for attachment to an overhead hoist or crane - one person lifted each end & a third person hooked it up. They are made up to 240" (6000 mm) but pricey. 

The little ones are dirt cheap on eBay (sometimes). There are a couple of 18" Mitu's currently on eBay for $125 each. IIRC my 18" Mitu Master Vernier with wooden case was $50.00 or so. Don't use it every day but it's a life saver on larger jobs.



> Still - I prefer the dial calipers...


No doubt they are faster to use & they can be just as accurate as a Master Vernier ... but most users cannot duplicate the same reading ten times on any dial caliper, unlike the Master Vernier where identical readings are expected. The difference is ....

The Master Vernier has a fine feed thumb wheel:







With some practice it's easy enough to develop a consistent feel for gaging pressure, similar to the gaging pressure used on an OD micrometer. Mics sometimes have clickers or a friction clutch but many top machinists use only consistent fingertip pressure to apply uniform gaging force. Everyone already knows that repeat readings on a decent mic are a no brainer & getting repeat readings on a Master Vernier requires only a bit more practice. In addition to the thumb feed the Master Verniers are heavily constructed, seems like 2x or 3x heavier in all dimensions than any dial or digital.

Since most dial & digital calipers resemble a fashion model (meaning skinny) they flex like a willow tree in the wind. Crank down on the thumb slider & get a small reading, use less pressure & get a larger reading. Nice feature as they can be made to read anything you want - if the print calls out 6.0015" just squeeze the jaw more or less tightly & the dial/digital will read exactly that number. Simply amazing :nana:

A super highly skilled machinist who uses the same dial/digital caliper 40 hours a week can get pretty good at applying uniform jaw pressure. Which always make me ask this question, why are there no best in class machinists using dial/digital calipers? The most probable answer is that the dial/digital is so darned difficult to use where the Master Vernier is not.

If accurate measurement are necessary a Master Vernier will do the job. If the call out is +/- .005" use whatever is handy. I work for a shop that uses Starrett steel rules because 1/64" is good enough for what they do. There's a best tool for every measuring job.


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## will (Mar 30, 2013)

I seem to remember that the shop I worked in had a 48 inch caliper. Only the foreman or the owner could take it out the wood box. We did not use it that often.


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## CMAG (Mar 30, 2013)

archimedes said:


> ... although I don't think I'll be using mine as a scribe ... :duh2: :scowl:


I worked in precision sheet metal, used mine as a scribe all the time.


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## archimedes (Mar 31, 2013)

CMAG said:


> I worked in precision sheet metal, used mine as a scribe all the time.



Your tools, your rules .... It's all good


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## gt40 (Apr 2, 2013)

I just scored a Starrett master Vernier caliper 123 14" on ebay for 75.00. Based on the pics, it looks basically new in box. I got hooked on these things after getting a cheap harbor freight aluminum one for rough measuring and have wanted the real deal for a while.


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## precisionworks (Apr 2, 2013)

Good buy 

The seller lists 14" & 26" probably because that's the OAL. Measuring range is 12", 24" etc.


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## PEU (Apr 7, 2013)

I also had the starrett fever, during that period I purchased 3 123M which I still have and use almost daily, great chunky calipers! Every now and then I search for starret 254M but they are scarce or expensive...

Their only drawback, they cannot measure small holes.


Pablo


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## will (Apr 7, 2013)

PEU said:


> Their only drawback, they cannot measure small holes.
> 
> 
> Pablo



Seems to me that the shop had a set of standards used to measure hole diameters. In a pinch, depending on tolerance, the back end of a drill would work. You could also turn something down on a lathe and use that. Basically a 'GO' or 'NO GO'


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## KC2IXE (Apr 7, 2013)

I recently got a set of Mayer M1 and M3 pin gages for a nice price. Now I have a nice set of gages


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## gt40 (Apr 8, 2013)

Post man walked upstairs to our office and brought a decent sized box:







These things are really cool


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## Freax (Apr 17, 2013)

Wow this forum continues to surprise me every day, here are my set of Mitutoyo: 
The reason for the aluminium foil is to keep the oil in, they have a little bit of 20-40w engine oil on them.
I love these types, they could survive a nuclear war and they are just as accurate as the digital ones.


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## precisionworks (Apr 17, 2013)

Freax said:


> ... they are just as accurate as the digital ones.



For most _experienced users_ the accuracy is many times greater with the master verniers. Here's a test for the non-believers ...

You'll need one friend & one set of gage blocks. Nothing fancy, shop floor grade is perfect. Conduct test in a climate controlled area like your home during either the heating season or the cooling season so the temp is more of less constant. Friend puts on medium weight cotton gloves to insulate the blocks from the heat of the hands, pick out block a & secretly notes the dimension then gives it to you to measure. You write down the dimension as shown the digital for 20 different blocks & then write down the dimension shown on the master vernier for 20 more different blocks.

Compare accuracy. If the instrument scores 100% you are golden on OD measurements. Any score under 100% fails. 

Ring gages are needed for the second part so you may need to go to a university or someplace else that has a bunch. Again 20 measurements with digital & with vernier. Same 100% requirement.

I've probably made half a dozen home mortgage payments over the years by betting my smarter friends that their gee-wiz digicals had serious suckage issues :nana:


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## wquiles (Apr 18, 2013)

+1

Specially the 50-division master calipers. When I "need" to know, my Starrett is ready


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## KC2IXE (Apr 23, 2013)

I always thought that once your tolerance level got to tighter that +-.005, you really shouldn't be using calipers anyway. That's what your mic is for


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## Russel (Apr 23, 2013)

That is true, but with a little experience, vernier calipers with the fine thumb screw adjustment can be used to consistently measure to 0.001"


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## KC2IXE (Apr 23, 2013)

Oh yeah, a Master Vernier can be quite accurate, no doubt about it, but as I rarely work above 6", and have mics to 6", in general, once the numbers get tight, out comes the mic. BTW, even with digital mics, I've found a big difference between say a cheap set and my Miti 6" absolutes (which do have a thumb screw)


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## Russel (Apr 23, 2013)

Most of the measurements that I take with my calipers are under 2 inches. Mostly for measuring materials when making rough cuts. It surprised me that I was getting such good results with a cheap vernier master (with thumbscrew) caliper. Measure, calculate rough cut, cut, measure again for finish cut, and have the numbers work out consistently. Of course, you have to develop a feel for the calipers. 

I do, of course, use micrometers when I need to be as accurate as possible. It's kind of funny, I was always the guy swearing up and down that you can't measure to .001" with calipers consistently until I discovered that I could when I started using them over and over.

Edit: Wow, I must be blind. I just noticed you're an amateur extra. 
--... ...--


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## KC2IXE (Apr 24, 2013)

Well, I don't doubt most are under 2". I saw a real interesting stats chart on the size of most work done in machine shops, and if I remember right, 90% is under 1", which is why the 5C collet is so popular for turned work. If I remember right, for turned work, something like 45% is under 1/2"!!


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## precisionworks (Apr 24, 2013)

My Mitu mechanical mics run from 0" - 12" & they're hard to beat for good OD measurements. Where the Master Vernier really shines is ID measurement because the jaws are dead parallel (unlike most digit calipers where the ID jaws are offset so they can slide by each other). The best ID measurements are made with tri-mics (not a single one in my shop) or with the Starrett or Mitu inside micrometer caliper: http://www.starrett.com/metrology/p...and-Tools/Micrometers/Inside-Micrometers/700A

But - the Starrett inside mic calipers measure only .2"-1.2" or 1" - 2" (700B Starrett). The Master Vernier allows dead nuts accurate measurements limited only by the length of the caliper (Starrett claims .0005" per foot & there isn't a disco caliper made that can equal that).

Other ways to accurately measure ID ... sure, telescoping mics (use them a lot), solid rod mics (quite often) expanding gages (every now & then), pin gages for tiny bores, etc. The Master Verniers are the go to instrument when there's nothing else that fits the bill & the bore has to be on the money the first time around - because there isn't a second chance to hit dimension.


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## KC2IXE (Apr 24, 2013)

Yeah, inside measurement is a bear, no matter what you do. Like I said, nothing against verniers, and have a pair (but really want a set of 12" masters, but so far not enough to actually, you know, BUY a pair, but they are getting close to the top of the list). So far an inside mic (and yeah, I don't have any tri-mics either - the price - shudder) and or expanding gages has been 'good enough' for what I need to do (gad, do I hate doing bearing press fits). I probably have better shop gear than my skill level needs.

I tend to treat Master verniers (when I've had the use of a set) as a standard/more precise tool for when they are NEEDED. The digis are 'good enough' for 90% of what I do, then I have way way too many sets of Mics. I've bough enough used lots of tools that I can't tell you how many mics I've GIVEN away to guys/girls just learning. Heck, I had one beat up old pair I even used to use as a C-clamp just to freak people out (totally beat .001 General brand that I painted red). I even keep a 1" mic in the glove box of the car


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## KC2IXE (Apr 24, 2013)

Just remember there was a job I was putting off for the lack of a good long caliper (need measurements in the 9" range). Guess what I decided to shell out the cash for. Nope, NOT a 12" Master - a 24" Yep, just bought a 24" Starrett Master vernier


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## Russel (Apr 24, 2013)

I'm going to buy a Starret master vernier, one of these days...

This is the cheap one that I've been using. 

http://www.centraltools.com/all_images/products/6421cat.jpg


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