# Paying respect to an old girl



## 350xfire (Oct 11, 2010)

Some of you know that I just bought an old Leblond 13" from the 1940s-50s eran. Finally the day came to take her home. Luckily the owner of the place had a Bobcat with fork so loading her was about a 10 minute process! All I had to do was pay his operator $20.

Here she is on the trailer sprayed with degreaser and ready for a power wash:











Headstock gears:





The old girl is home and ready for a makeover:





Removed side covers and cleaning her up:





KDK tool post (only has one holder, I need to get the rest, if anyone can help let me know! Thanks) This one can hold up to 1/2" tools:





This will be the final restoration color:





Oh, and it came with the 4 jaw Cushman 10" and a Cushman 8" 3 Jaw chucks.

The old girl looks rough, but with some elbow grease I think I can make her pretty and useful again.

More to come.


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## 350xfire (Oct 11, 2010)

OK, so I just called Leblond and since this is a B8764 serial number, it is no longer supported. B = 13" swing... That means no steady rest or follow rest from Leblond (not that I was going to spend $500+ each). The guy I spoke to said this is a 1944 machine. That would make it 66 years old... Much older than me!!!


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## precisionworks (Oct 11, 2010)

That's gonna come out nicely :thumbsup:



> no steady rest or follow rest from Leblond


Normally not a problem. EBay is full of no name steadies & followers, often cheap, that can be adapted to most machines. May have to chop it down, build it up, weld a little, etc., but it's not an impossible project. Just watch for correct center height.

For a 13" machine, the headstock is massive ... about the size headstock found on an 18" Full Moon Goon from China. I'm guessing the bearings may still be OK, but you'll want to check that.

Lots of KDK stuff on the web:

http://www.weldershop.info/?s=kdk

Always lots on eBay as well.

Joe at Plaza also has some listed.


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## 350xfire (Oct 11, 2010)

OK, precision, how do you check the bearings? Is this where you take a 2x4 and pull up on the chuck and see what play is? How much play is OK?

Oh, BTW I figured out the dial on top of the headstock is not a VFD control but a feed and speed rate chart. You turn it to whatever material you are spinning and it tells you the recommended speed and feed rates!
Thanks
Here are a few pics of some more progress:
About a gallon of Purple Power, 2 cans of easy off and about 1/2 gallon of paint stripper:





Some Sherwin Williams industrial alkyd enamel in Nickel:


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## precisionworks (Oct 11, 2010)

> how do you check the bearings?


First, flush the bearings with some type of solvent that will get out any dirt, old grease, crud, etc. The inner race of each bearing will probably face the inside of the headstock, so that shouldn't be hard to do. Then pump any lightweight oil into the races and hand turn the spindle. It should turn smoothly, without any noises or grinding or catches.



> Is this where you take a 2x4 and pull up on the chuck and see what play is?


After the bearings check out OK, fill the headstock with your favorite oil, something like Mobil DTE or equal. Run the lathe for 10-15 minutes to warm the bearings, and check bearing temp with an IR thermometer - around 120°F to 140°F is the target range. A deflection test can also be done but the IR thermometer gives a better idea of adequate preload.

If you feel at all uncomfortable about the condition of the bearings, replace them at this time. The machine probably came with ABEC-0 bearings & you may be able to find ABEC-3 or ABEC-5 replacements at Motion Industries or other supply house.


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## wquiles (Oct 12, 2010)

The restoration job/photos are great - thanks much Hector for sharing the process step by step. Looking forward to more updates 

Will


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## 350xfire (Oct 12, 2010)

precisionworks said:


> First, flush the bearings with some type of solvent that will get out any dirt, old grease, crud, etc. The inner race of each bearing will probably face the inside of the headstock, so that shouldn't be hard to do. Then pump any lightweight oil into the races and hand turn the spindle. It should turn smoothly, without any noises or grinding or catches.
> 
> After the bearings check out OK, fill the headstock with your favorite oil, something like Mobil DTE or equal. Run the lathe for 10-15 minutes to warm the bearings, and check bearing temp with an IR thermometer - around 120°F to 140°F is the target range. A deflection test can also be done but the IR thermometer gives a better idea of adequate preload.
> 
> If you feel at all uncomfortable about the condition of the bearings, replace them at this time. The machine probably came with ABEC-0 bearings & you may be able to find ABEC-3 or ABEC-5 replacements at Motion Industries or other supply house.


 
Precision, it may be worth to just replace them, if it's easy that is! Is that a simple, remove the end and the bearing slides out? or are those somehow pressed in there? Also, OK to run SAE 30 oil in it or go with DTE?
Thanks

Will, thanks... Those are some crappy pics taken with Iphone so not too great but they get the message out.


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## 350xfire (Oct 12, 2010)

Question for you electrical guys: This machine has a 220v 3phase motor on it. I have a 3hp static phase converter, but would like to do VFD. Can I just use single phase 220 into a VFD and have the VFD put out 3 phase?

If so, can anyone point me in the direction of an affordable VFD?
Thanks


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## precisionworks (Oct 12, 2010)

To run a VFD, you have to first unhook all control switches from the motor (or contactor, which is normally how a 3ph motor is switched). Wire the VFD directly to the motor, then wire the motor control switches to the VFD logic terminals. WQuiles can give you step by step directions, as he did this on his mill. Just remember *one continuous wire from VFD to motor. *There can be no switches between the drive & the motor.

Your factory control switch will look (sort of) like the photo below, and the VFD end will resemble the second photo.
















> it may be worth to just replace the bearings, if it's easy


Allow half a day, maybe more. You'll have to figure out how the factory installed the spindle & reverse engineer from there. Normally, the back bearing has a preload plate that holds the bearing in place - remove that as the first step. Take the back bearing out, figure out how to remove the gears from the spindle, etc. Not impossible, but far from the easiest job you've ever done. Don't use excessive force as most parts are no longer available.



> OK to run SAE 30 oil in it or go with DTE?


Automotive oils are far different than machine oils. Mobil DTE is the standard headstock lubricant.



> affordable VFD?


They're a commodity item, meaning all are pretty cheap. I've installed a couple of SMVectors, as has WQuiles - easy to configure & available in a NEMA 4X (totally sealed) enclosure.


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## wquiles (Oct 12, 2010)

350xfire said:


> Can I just use single phase 220 into a VFD and have the VFD put out 3 phase?



Yup, that is how the VFD works. You feed it 220V single phase and it generates 220V 3 phase output, which is adjustable for speed, or torque, while incorporating soft-start, and other goodies depending on the exact VFD unit.





350xfire said:


> If so, can anyone point me in the direction of an affordable VFD?
> Thanks


Assuming a 3HP unit would work well with your new-to-you lathe, my preferred vote goes to the AC Tech, Vector Drive, NEMA 4X, Indoor Duty
Standard Input. You can buy it from Wolf Automation:
http://www.wolfautomation.com/Product.aspx?ProductID=22376

Under options for Choose Input Line Voltage & Options, pick single or 3 phase 208-240 volt, and under HP rating pick the 3HP model.

If you need a higher HP model, then I will defer to Barry for his alternate suggestions.

Will


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## precisionworks (Oct 12, 2010)

What is the motor hp?



> AC Tech, Vector Drive, NEMA 4X, Indoor Duty
> Standard Input.


+1

Since Will has already determined how to configure the parameters for remote control operation, half the installation is done. The other half is drawing a schematic diagram of your lathe to determine how the motor is controlled. My 3ph lathe has one contactor for forward, another for reverse, and interlocks on the gearbox door. It also has a foot brake interlock, which yours probably does not have.


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## 350xfire (Oct 12, 2010)

Great info guys a big thanks.


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## 350xfire (Oct 12, 2010)

OK so I took a pry bar and a dial indicator and checked bearing play. Looks like up-down is about 0.0015" and front to back is about 0.0035". Is this good?
I guess the front to back can be adjusted some. The up and down with my limited knowledge looks good, right?

BTW, those are cold readings as right now I can't run the machine. I assume once run for 20-30 minutes they'll tighten up!


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## 350xfire (Oct 12, 2010)

Precision and wquiles, what do you think about this VFD? I think it will do what I need. As always you two are above what I want to pay. Will, the VFD you suggested is almost $500 after you add the options of 3hp and 208-230v...

http://cgi.ebay.com/VARIABLE-FREQUE...lectrical_Equipment_Tools&hash=item563d93f204

This one is direct from Hong Kong and it's Precision's favorite Kung Fu brand!!


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## precisionworks (Oct 13, 2010)

> what do you think about this VFD?


You really don't want to know ... but since you asked ...

*IF* you had 3ph input, the drive is 3hp. _Since you have 1ph input, the drive is 1.5hp._  Even if the drive were the correct size, there are other issues.

The drive is a V/Hz model (volts per Hertz) suitable for running a pump or fan.  Pumps & fans need less torque as their speed is decreased. Machine tools need a vector drive. The difference between the two is night and day.



> I will guid you how to install this VFD


No speekee English?

That's one of the three great lies, right after the check is in the mail & I will love you in the morning  Expect zero tech support, since you probably don't speak Mandarin, and that's if you could ever get in contact with the factory tech support. Which probably does not exist :shakehead

Manufacturer is the ShangHai Hangzhou Medical Equipment Plant. If you're dead set on buying this, phone them first, have them spend 15-20 minutes with you on the phone doing a walk through of a typical remote control install. I've spent hours on the phone with ACTech, Hitachi, Siemens, etc. & all those companies are happy to do this.

The biggest problem? If you have any problem at all, you are on your own. Usually cheaper to toss the defective drive in the trash & buy another one than to try to get warranty support from China. By the time you pay for two drives, it doesn't look like such a bargain.


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## PEU (Oct 13, 2010)

Barry, look closely at the company name font of the iso9000 certificate... :ironic:

Nevertheless, love-happyshopping is a known seller of cheap VFD and High Speed Spindles, you will find a boat load of info at cnczone.com (and complaints too)

Personally when I had to purchase a spindle and VFD, I went with another dealer, who provided me with basic setup instructions that worked as expected, 1st spindle did not work correctly and they sent a new one, perfectly OK in my book.

Good luck with your choice.


Pablo


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## precisionworks (Oct 13, 2010)

> I have a 3hp static phase converter, but would like to do VFD.



Why not build a rotary phase converter (RPC). The WhoFlungDung VFD will cost $166 delivered, and careful scrounging at the scrap yard will get the parts needed for a RPC for less than that.

Brain dead simple to build if you use the pony start method (as I did). Just a little more technical if you build an auto start RPC. Read through this thread to see how others have built theirs, adapt the ideas you like, and have it done and running for not much money: http://www.practicalmachinist.com/v.../rotary-phase-converter-designs-plans-101231/

A well built RPC is many times better than a V/Hz VFD with no tech support.


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## 350xfire (Oct 13, 2010)

Okay, thanks again... 
Hey, what did you think about the bearing info I posted?


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## mototraxtech (Oct 13, 2010)

350xfire said:


> Okay, thanks again...
> Hey, what did you think about the bearing info I posted?



Seams like a lot to me but I don't know for sure. What kind of bearings are they.


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## 350xfire (Oct 13, 2010)

Tapered timken... Those readings were while machine was cold.


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## mototraxtech (Oct 13, 2010)

I think the reason many lathe manufacturers use tapered bearings is so that you can adjust the play out of them. You should warm the machine up to check the play as the cold play doesn't mean much. I am pretty sure when warm there should be NO play at all.


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## Pidg (Oct 13, 2010)

mototraxtech said:


> I think the reason many lathe manufacturers use tapered bearings is so that you can adjust the play out of them. You should warm the machine up to check the play as the cold play doesn't mean much. I am pretty sure when warm there should be NO play at all.



You are probably correct, for this lathe, but the configuration of tapered bearings vary, and the proper adjustment for one configuration, can cause a very fast failure in the other configuration.

If the bearings are pressed on the shaft with the large ODs toward the center, and the small IDs towards the end of the shaft, as they probably are on this lathe, there had better be play when cold.

As things heat up, as you said, the play will decrease. The danger lies in the fact that this configuration involves positive feedback. The hotter the shaft gets, the more it expands and exerts more preload on the bearings, which leads to more heat. So, the shaft expands leading to still more heat, quickly evolving into seizure. It's really nice to have manufacturer specs for lash in this configuration.

When the small ends of the bearings are facing each other, as the shaft temp increases the preload decreases, which is a negative feedback situation, and not nearly as dangerous. However, you don't want the rollers skidding. So, this configuration often involves a significant preload - the bearings may feel way too tight, when used on something like a high pressure hydraulic pump, that significantly heats up with use. The heavy preload is essential, in such cases, for bearing longevity.

So, I'd leave the bearings as-is and monitor the play and temperatures when fully warmed up. I don't have a lot of experience with this, but on a lathe I would want no-play on the shaft ( a little preload for turning accuracy) at operating temp, but the shaft should still turn freely. If it feels like it's starting to bind, there's too much preload, and a catastrophic failure could be close behind. 

If you measure and record the play, at say 70 degrees, then you'll have a starting point to adjust from, if needed.

Bill


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## precisionworks (Oct 14, 2010)

> I am pretty sure when warm there should be *NO* play at all.


You may want to spend just a few hours on the bearing manufacturer's websites, and spend another few hours on the phone with tech support, as preload is not a topic that can be summarized in one sentence ... _except to say that setting any precision bearing to run with .0000" of radial or axial runout will guarantee destruction of those bearings. _

Correct bearing preload depends on multiple factors - type of equipment, type of bearing, accuracy class of bearing, lubrication used (grease, oil, air/oil mist, etc.) load conditions, and much more. Provide that info to the bearing manufacturer & they will give exact radial & axial play recommendations for that specific application. 

None will ever suggest NO clearance, as no clearance means the rolling elements & the static elements are in direct contact, which results is quick bearing failure. The rolling elements & static elements are always separated by a thin boundary layer of lubricant, so neither ever touch the other. For that reason, properly maintained precision bearings will last for decades, with contamination of the lubricant being a primary cause of failure.








If your browser allows page resizing, enlarge the above photo for the best (one page) instructions I've found. If not, PM your address & I'll mail out a copy.



> what did you think about the bearing info I posted?


It's a start. Cold bearings will (or should) feel somewhat loose, as they tend to tighten up when they are brought to operating temp. The consensus among all the engineers with whom I spoke is warm the bearings to operating temp, check the temp, adjust for a stable 120°F to 140°F. If the temp keeps climbing, preload is too high & those expensive bearings will become useless when they seize. Preload too low will result is excessive spindle vibration, chatter during certain ops, and a loss of fine accuracy.


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## 350xfire (Oct 14, 2010)

Little progress update:
I hope I can put her back together... lol!
Carriage and headstock get some makeup!






Some of the other parts:


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## 350xfire (Oct 14, 2010)

Oh and my "Kung Fu" parts washer came in... So now I can clean up all the loose parts.
It's a 40 gall HFT that I got for $80 minus 20% mail order. Both back corners are a bit beaten up from shipping but heck for $80 shipped I won't complain.


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## wquiles (Oct 14, 2010)

Great progress - keep the photos coming 

Will


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## 350xfire (Oct 14, 2010)

wquiles said:


> Great progress - keep the photos coming
> 
> Will


 
Thanks Will. I finally got tired of scrubbing and not seeing any good looking progress so I decided to start painting to see some fruits of my labor. Still has more scrubbing but she is going to turn out nice, I think!


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## mototraxtech (Oct 14, 2010)

Looks really good I cant wait to see it finished. What are you taking the pics with as they are very grainy. It looks like a good paint job but hard to see how "GOOD" it is.

The reason I ask is because I am painting mine right now and want to see what others have looked like after they painted them.


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## 350xfire (Oct 14, 2010)

mototraxtech said:


> Looks really good I cant wait to see it finished. What are you taking the pics with as they are very grainy. It looks like a good paint job but hard to see how "GOOD" it is.
> 
> The reason I ask is because I am painting mine right now and want to see what others have looked like after they painted them.


 
Yeah using the good old Iphone. This way I just e-mail to myself and save in my computer. I am using Sherwin Williams Industrial Alkyd Enamel $32 per gallon in Nickel color. It is pretty thick and durable. We have painted pipe and stuff around my water treatment plant with it and it holds up well. I am brush painting it on. Lay it on thick so it will settle flat. I am happy with it so far. The only thing I dislike is the prep work. Getting all the old crud and grease off sucks. The SW paint is meant to go on bare metal without priming. You just knock off all the loose stuff and you can paint it over with this stuff. I do spray some phosphoric acid on the arts to ensure the rust is off.


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## precisionworks (Oct 14, 2010)

> my "Kung Fu" parts washer came in




A broken cast iron bell housing came in today, so greasy that rubber gloves were needed to handle it. To the auto machine shop it went, where it gets to soak in the hot caustic tank. It should be ready in the morning, clean enough to eat off of, for a cost of $10. 

A friend with a dip tank is better than owning my own dip tank :nana:


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## mototraxtech (Oct 15, 2010)

Do they normally stock that paint or did you have to order it. I was going to use rustoleum but I have heard alot of good things from the paint you mention. What kind of brush are you using and whats the dry time to touch an the actual CURE time.

My biggest problem with brush painting is I ALWAYS have had terrible looking brush lines.

Thanks!


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## mototraxtech (Oct 15, 2010)

WOW, I went to Sherwin Williams today to see if they had it in my colors. Well they had one color and the other they could get. It was however $65 a gallon. That is WAY to much. How in the world did you get it so cheap!


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## 350xfire (Oct 17, 2010)

mototraxtech said:


> WOW, I went to Sherwin Williams today to see if they had it in my colors. Well they had one color and the other they could get. It was however $65 a gallon. That is WAY to much. How in the world did you get it so cheap!


 
It's the direct to metal industrial alkyd paint. They have many colors to choose from in the coating's book, but will do ANY color in the store. I just bought mine a few weeks ago for $32 per gallon. I am using soem Lowe's brushes that cost 3 for $12 per set. You could probably get better results with a Purdy but I figured these will probably end up in the trash anyway!


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## mototraxtech (Oct 17, 2010)

I ended up getting so ACE alkali(sp) rust stop paint. I am just going to paint it and put it together. As long as it holds up good I dont really care anymore. I just got a call yesterday and a local farming might take it off my hand anyways.


Then hopefully by the end of the year we will move and I can get a bigger machine!


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## 350xfire (Oct 24, 2010)

OK, so finally got back from vacation and got back on the old girl:















Some assembly work on the cross and compound slides, need new T-bolts for the compound slide, a little paint clean up around the lead and feed screws (I did not want to take those apart to paint so I got a bit of paint on them) and some wiring work and this old girl should run.


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## mototraxtech (Oct 24, 2010)

looks incredible, cant wait to see it finished. When we went and got the paint we got saftey blue and some gloss base white. That what they guy said we needed. Well thats what I get for talking advice from someone that smelt like he just got home from the bar. We needed about 1/4" of white paint on the cover the WHITE below it. Ended up having to let that dry and then when and got some NORMAL white paint and covered everything first coat.


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## precisionworks (Oct 24, 2010)

That looks great :thumbsup:

Your level of patience is at least 10X more than mine.


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## 350xfire (Oct 25, 2010)

precisionworks said:


> That looks great :thumbsup:
> 
> Your level of patience is at least 10X more than mine.


 
I find that my patience is only as good as the size of my wallet at the time (which of course is not as big as I would like it to be)!!! 
Overall the machine looks many times better than whe I got it. Has some brush marks and such but it's a machine that will see use so I was not looking for perfection.

I do have to ask some things on a VFD. I found this vector drive one:
Teco Micro 3HP vector
http://www.wolfautomation.com/Configure3.aspx?ProductID=28926&x=70&y=13
Of course it's not NEMA 4X but I don't think I'll need that, expecially for the additional price.

I can also get a 3hp Altivar 12 from Telemecanique (Allen Bradley, I think) for $279 locally.

What do you think?
Now this VFD will drive a 1HP motor. Do I need a 3hp VFD? Do single phase-fed VFDs loose power? (I will be feeding single phase 220)
I am trying to go with the most affordable option that will do what I need. I would love to have the AC Tec recommended by you and Will but at $400+ I would like to lower the price.
Thanks again precision!

Oh, and I have seen some of your work and I have to disagree, I think you have about 1000x the patience I have! lol


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## precisionworks (Oct 25, 2010)

The Teco EV Series is about the lowest priced vector drive on the market (not counting Kung Fu drives direct from Hong Kong). It will do a nice job on a lathe or mill.

Buy the drive either sized for your current motor, or buy a larger drive in anticipation of swapping out to a larger motor.



> Do I need a 3hp VFD?


If the drive is designed for 3ph input, it must be derated by half for 1ph input (3hp on 3ph=1.5hp on 1ph).

Most smaller drives accept 1ph input without derating. 



> Do single phase-fed VFDs loose power?


No, your motor will make full hp with a VFD set to 60 Hz.


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## 350xfire (Oct 26, 2010)

Thanks Barry, one last question, do ALL VFDs come with reverse on them or is that usually an additional function?


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## 65535 (Oct 27, 2010)

Most VFD's (if not all) can be reversed, some (like my 1HP VFD from GE) have it in a setting that isn't fast and easy to change. 

Others have a multi position switch, others a button.

All can be reversed by switching any 2 of the 3 phases.


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## precisionworks (Oct 27, 2010)

> All can be reversed by switching any 2 of the 3 phases.


All 3ph motors can be reversed by _mechanically _switching any two of the three leads ... the VFD uses an internal logic circuit that controls a solid state switch to _electrically _switch two of the three motor power leads (3ph output from the VFD).

On the SMVector drive that Will & I use, it's fast, requiring only a touch of two buttons in sequence. I have not configured an EV drive, as the last Teco install was on a MA7200. IMO, control functions (on that particular model) were challenging, using the keypad operator. Or it may have been my familiarity with the SMVector that caused the MA7200 to seem awkward.

Read through the op manual & see how it looks to you. Call TECO tech support (not Wolf Automation) if you have any question on this *before* purchasing the drive. Phone 800-279-4007 and speak with an applications engineer for the specific procedure on configuration settings.

According to the manual, there is not a reversing touch pad on the front operator panel - not a problem if you plan remote operation using the factory control switch that the lathe already has (wired into the logic terminals of the drive).

http://www.tecowestinghouse.com/Manuals/ev_operating_manual.pdf


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## 350xfire (Oct 27, 2010)

precisionworks said:


> All 3ph motors can be reversed by _mechanically _switching any two of the three leads ... the VFD uses an internal logic circuit that controls a solid state switch to _electrically _switch two of the three motor power leads (3ph output from the VFD).
> 
> On the SMVector drive that Will & I use, it's fast, requiring only a touch of two buttons in sequence. I have not configured an EV drive, as the last Teco install was on a MA7200. IMO, control functions (on that particular model) were challenging, using the keypad operator. Or it may have been my familiarity with the SMVector that caused the MA7200 to seem awkward.
> 
> ...


 
Thanks again. I looked through the ops manual in the Wolf web site and it looks like on the Teco Micro you just hit a function button, co to function 3 and then select weither f1 or f2 for forward or reverse.


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## 350xfire (Oct 29, 2010)

Ordered the teco sensorless vector micro vfd today! Could have ordered on line for about $232 but went through local distributor for another $10 more with shipping and tax! Motor is wired, head stock is full of dte light which I got free from one of our suppliers and just have some minor assembly on the cross and compound slides!!!


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## 350xfire (Oct 31, 2010)

Alright Barry, got the motor turning yesterday with a static phase converter. I have to say, I am not impressed with the SPC or there is something not right. The motor takes a while to speed up and the SPC crackles and pops during ramp up. I hope the VFD takes care of this...

Found a problem as well. The machine runs about 1000 times smoother than my Taiwan which makes a lot of noise! Everything works, except the x and y auto feed. I took the apron off and everything looks like its engaging properly except for the side gear that meshes agains the bevel gear shown below. It seems to have a lot of in and out and back and forth play on it.











Parts diagram does not show the side gear:





Now, the bevel gear is set in place by a screw that goes in from the front. Repair may be as simple as pulling the gear out to take up some of the slop on the "side gear" (I assume this gear fits in the feed rod and as the feed rod turns it turns causing the bevel gear to turn and everything else along with it)... Problem is I am not sure how to pull on it as my 3 jaw puller will not fit. 

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks
Hector


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## Notsure Fire (Oct 31, 2010)

Wow what a great find! The deals you get sometimes on things like that. It's really priceless.


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## 350xfire (Oct 31, 2010)

Notsure Fire said:


> Wow what a great find! The deals you get sometimes on things like that. It's really priceless.


 
Thanks... With a bit of work she'll be good as new.


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## precisionworks (Oct 31, 2010)

> I am not impressed with the SPC or there is something not right. The motor takes a while to speed up and the SPC crackles and pops during ramp up.


A static motor starter uses a potential relay (or sometimes a timer relay) to kick in an artificial third phase that gets the rotor spinning, at which time the motor runs on two phases. If that were my motor, I would not use the static starter any more. Lots of good 3ph motors have been fried with a static starter & you don't want your motor added to that list 

The VFD will make the motor run as it should, unless the motor has a problem - which is possible but not likely.



> everything looks like its engaging properly except for the side gear that meshes agains the bevel gear shown below. It seems to have a lot of in and out and back and forth play on it.


You'll probably have to make a shim to correct the engagement. Too tight is just as bad, probably worse, than too loose. Bevel gears are often set up using shim stock (again) as a spacer to find correct engagement, but I haven't a clue as to the correct clearance. 

Best guess? Experiment with shimming out the gear until there is zero play, then go .005" to .010" thinner on the shim pack. Sound & temperature will be your best guidelines. Bevel gears with correct engagement are pretty quiet, and should have minimal temp rise (maybe 20° to 30° F above ambient).


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## 350xfire (Oct 31, 2010)

precisionworks said:


> A static motor starter uses a potential relay (or sometimes a timer relay) to kick in an artificial third phase that gets the rotor spinning, at which time the motor runs on two phases. If that were my motor, I would not use the static starter any more. Lots of good 3ph motors have been fried with a static starter & you don't want your motor added to that list
> 
> The VFD will make the motor run as it should, unless the motor has a problem - which is possible but not likely.
> 
> ...


 
OK, I was wondering why manufacturers usually void motor warranties when running static phase converters. That thing is kind of scary. I would have to manually help the motor spin up until it got going... VFD should be here this week so no problem.

Do you have any idea how to remove the bevel and feed rod gear? I tried a screwdriver gently as I read somewhere the bevel gear costs about $300 for some Leblonds and did not even budge. Then I tried using a 3-jaw puller but it was too big. I was thingking about using a torch to heat up but unsure???

Thanks


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## mototraxtech (Oct 31, 2010)

you might try gently with screwdriver on top and on bottom working in unison. I have done this with quite a few things and it usually works with Patience. The problems is I done have much patients and then I break stuff.

Also you might use the heat as well.


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## precisionworks (Oct 31, 2010)

> have any idea how to remove the bevel and feed rod gear?


If you spend some time reverse engineering the part, you should be able to see the assembly order. Until you are certain of the way it was assembled, don't use any force to disassemble.



> I read somewhere the bevel gear costs about $300 for some Leblonds


Factory parts cost no more than a liver transplant :nana: If it's impossible to see how to get it apart, you may be better off putting up with the bad fit for now. Someone somewhere has done this, maybe on a Yahoo board or another forum, and you'll eventually find out the procedure. Those parts don't look like they're made of 24 carat gold ... until they get broken :shakehead


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## 350xfire (Oct 31, 2010)

In looking at the schematic it should come out. However, I have tried wedging a chisel under it and screwdrivers and no success. I'll have to study it some more.

Thanks


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## 65535 (Nov 1, 2010)

Looks to me like the gear is pinned on.

If you note the pin (part 14). And note in your picture of the large bevel gear with the round hole about 180 degrees from the keyway.

It's probably mildly tapered and driven in the same for both bevel gears. Figure out how to loosed that pin and it'll probably slide off with a little force and or heating.


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## 350xfire (Nov 1, 2010)

65535 said:


> Looks to me like the gear is pinned on.
> 
> If you note the pin (part 14). And note in your picture of the large bevel gear with the round hole about 180 degrees from the keyway.
> 
> It's probably mildly tapered and driven in the same for both bevel gears. Figure out how to loosed that pin and it'll probably slide off with a little force and or heating.


 
Part 14 is actually a set screw that goes in from the front of the gear. I have removed that.


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## 350xfire (Nov 1, 2010)

OK, guys upon much closer inspection, I have narrowed it down to part #21. It is the side gear that meshes against the feed rod. In looking at the inside of it, I see a very faint outline of what used to be a key way that fits in the feed rod's groove. This must have been worn from years of running the headstock against the carriage with the feed rod engaged. 

Now the hard part... How do I remove it and how do I fix it?


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## 350xfire (Nov 1, 2010)

OK, so I'm obsessed and it's almost 2am. I got the bevel pinion out. Turns out there is part 12... bushing set screw. Once that is loose the bevel gear assembly can be tapped in to allow clearance for the bevel pinion to come out.

So now, the easy part is done... The hard part- where do I get this one fixed, replaced or custom made?

Precision--- PLEASE COME TO THE RESCUE AGAIN!!! THANKS


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## precisionworks (Nov 1, 2010)

Good Morning, how may we help you? :nana:



> where do I get this one fixed, replaced or custom made?


Some possibilities are:

Phone Clausing & find out if they have a replacement. It will seem expensive but may be the lowest cost option. Sit down before they quote a price.

Contact Boston Gear (or any similar gear shop). Compare their quote to Clausing.

Examine the worn gear to see if buildup is an option. It may be possible to spray metalize (aka thermal spray or flame spray). There are quite a few companies that do this & small parts are not too pricey - large electric motor rebuild shops are one place to try, or google the key works. After buildup, the original profile will need to be recut - which can be done in the mill with an indexer (or super spacer) tilted to the correct angle, plus a tool that cuts the correct pressure angle on the bevels.

Depending on the amount of buildup needed, industrial hard chrome plate may be an option. Works best if just a bit of thickness is needed, something around .050" max. May cost as much as a new gear from Clausing. Quite a few shops do this, including one near my location, but this would be the least attractive option.

You might also find someone parting out an older machine, but that gear may be just as worn as yours ...


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## 350xfire (Nov 1, 2010)

Good morning to you as well... Damn 7am came in fast!
OK, so here is where I am. Called Leblond...............................................................Still getting over SHOCK! lol. The bevel pinion assembly is a stock part (shocker 1). The assembly is $400, big shocker 2. haha, you warned me.

In looking at the barrel, there is a worn out key way in there that fits on the feed screw. The key way costs $37. Expensive butbeats $400.

I think I can just replace it and she'll be almost as good as new. Problem is that it is wedged in there. How do I remove that key way? It does not go all the way through so I can't get it from the outside. It is all inside the bore. Once that's off I should be able to put a new one in... Was thinking small hole from outside of bore and push it out???

Jedi master, please help again.

Thanks


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## precisionworks (Nov 1, 2010)

As Yoda said,



> Remember, a Jedi's strength flows from the Force. But beware Anger, Fear, Aggression. The dark side are they.



Or as the MD's like to say, do no harm :thumbsup:

You may want to try your favorite penetrating oil for the next few days, perhaps a week, giving the stuck key a squirt whenever you think about it. Kroil liquid (or AeroKroil in a spray can) has been my go-to penetrating oil for years. http://www.kanolabs.com/

If heat is needed, "beware Aggression". A disposable butane cigarette lighter should provide more than enough heat. This is a great time to keep a check on the temp with an IR thermometer, and the part should never get over 500° F. Every steel has an annealing temp, at which point the hardness is drawn down, which is the reason for the cautious heating.

With enough penetrating oil over a long enough period, plus a little heat, the key should eventually move. _

Maxima enim, patientia virtus :nana:_

That saying applies double to machine tool dis assembly.


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## 350xfire (Nov 1, 2010)

OK, so the force was partially with me. I was able to take it off. I actually started by trying to drill a hole through the sidewall to push the key out. However, during heating, I noticed the outline of the key on the outside of the shaft. So took a chisel and beat it out. I did mess up a bit during drilling but not bad.

Now the question, are key ways standard part stuff or should I pay the $37 for a Leblond one? This looks like a $0.10 part...


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## precisionworks (Nov 1, 2010)

> are key ways standard part stuff


Yes ... usually :devil:

Most keys on American made machines are square, like 1/8"x1/8", 3/16"x3/16", etc. A few manufacturers, trying to protect their designs, used oddball dimensions - meaning that the key will have to be bought from LeBlond, or made on your mill.

They aren't terribly difficult to make from solid round stock, like 4140HT. Cut a piece about 9" long (so that 6" stays in the mill vise jaws), support the 3" with a jack or parallels, mill one surface flat, index 90°, mill another flat, etc. Fit should be around .0005"-.001" narrower than the width of the keyway.

It's an easy job with a surface grinder :nana:


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## mototraxtech (Nov 2, 2010)

Ive even used a file on small ones. Keys in most things are not critical. If they were the would not be using keys they would use some form of splines. Especially for something as slow moving as a carriage if it fits nicely (dont jam a rock it there) and is not loose you are GTG.


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