# What's the ProPoly of rifles? **Got a Marlin 980S!** **IT'S EXCELLENT!**



## TigerhawkT3 (Jul 25, 2007)

I'm thinking of getting a rifle, and I think the best way to describe what I want is to compare it to a ProPoly.

-Inexpensive
-Popular
-Cheap/common ammo
-Good throw (long-range accuracy)
-Simple
-Tough

That sort of thing. I don't want something that kicks so hard that it leaves painful bruises, but I don't mind anything less than that. As some of you may know, I shot a .54 black powder pistol, and that was just fine. However, since you can let pistols fly up but rifles transmit their recoil straight to your shoulder, it might not be too comparable/relevant. I want to be able to go to the range, get a reasonable grouping (hopefully at long ranges), and not worry too much.

I'm okay with small box magazines, bolt action, semi, whatever. As long as the system is cheap and reliable.

Price should be below $3-400. I find myself drawn to the $90 Mosin-Nagant Russian military surplus rifle at Big 5 (but I've heard that it kicks like a mule, so that's probably not what I want).

Ideas?


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## bitslammer (Jul 25, 2007)

*Re: What's the ProPoly of rifles?*

From a cost perspective .22LR is hard to beat. They are also very good target rounds that you can use to get your grouping together and have little kick. I'd say grab an simple 22LR first and use it to hone your skills and tastes before moving on.


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## Marduke (Jul 25, 2007)

*Re: What's the ProPoly of rifles?*

I have a Mosin-Nagant, and it kicks like a mule. Plus, the ammo isn't readily available in most local sporting goods shops. For a good combination of decent quality, decent accuracy, and cheap price, try Mossberg's line ($200-400) for the big calibers, Marlin's ($162) for .22LR.

http://www.mossberg.com/products/default.asp?id=8&section=products
http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product.do?product_id=4756262
http://www.mossberg.com/products/default.asp?id=27&section=products

http://www.marlinfirearms.com/Firearms/BoltAction22/925r.aspx
http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product.do?product_id=4665643


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## bitslammer (Jul 25, 2007)

*Re: What's the ProPoly of rifles?*

I can speak for the Marlin .22LR tube feed semi-auto. It's fun because you can load up (13 rounds??) and pop away. I've hear these are troublesome and they do jam when they get dirty but we never had trouble with ours. Again, for the price it's pretty cheap.


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## LukeA (Jul 25, 2007)

*Re: What's the ProPoly of rifles?*

Ruger 10/22?


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## skalomax (Jul 25, 2007)

*Re: What's the ProPoly of rifles?*



LukeA said:


> Ruger 10/22?


 
I have 2.
Pretty accurate, decent speed, and very easy to take care of.

No problems with mine, I use standard 10rd magazine, and a custom 30rnd. :green:


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## FRANKVZ (Jul 25, 2007)

*Re: What's the ProPoly of rifles?*

A .22 is good in everything you asked for except long range. The next step up in range and ammo price would be a .17 caliber. If you want a hi-power rifle a .223 or .243 give you much longer range without much kick. At what kind of distances will you be shooting?


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## Diesel_Bomber (Jul 25, 2007)

*Re: What's the ProPoly of rifles?*

I have both the Marlin and the 10-22 mentioned above, and would recommend both of them. The 10-22 is also very customizable, similar to the Surefire Lego interchangeability.

I have two Stevens/Savage model 62's as well. I wouldn't recommend this rifle. Mine jam often, no matter how clean and well oiled they are, with no difference between the different brands of ammo I've tried. I have a friend with the same rifle, same deal.

Good luck and happy shooting. :buddies:


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## Datasaurusrex (Jul 25, 2007)

*Re: What's the ProPoly of rifles?*

In CA your options are very restricted. I'd suggest you check out the following:

KelTec SU16 (CA version).
Ruger Mini14
"Off list" AK47 (from what I heard these just became legal).
SKS

Some of the above are slightly above your price point, but worth looking into imho. An off list AR is an abomination, and a bit higher than your price point.

Or look at bolt action hunting rifles in 308 or 30.06. A Savage with the Acu-trigger is inexpensive and pretty good.

You can still get 308 surplus at a resonable cost. 5.56 is pricy right now, but will probably drop a bit eventually.

A 10/22 is an excellent rifle, but it is just a .22.

A lot depends on what you want it for. And if you want bolt action or semi auto.


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## DonShock (Jul 25, 2007)

*Re: What's the ProPoly of rifles?*



LukeA said:


> Ruger 10/22?


That was my immediate thought too when I saw the thread title.


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## LukeA (Jul 25, 2007)

*Re: What's the ProPoly of rifles?*



DonShock said:


> That was my immediate thought too when I saw the thread title.



You can't beat .22LR for plinking.


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## 270winchester (Jul 25, 2007)

*Re: What's the ProPoly of rifles?*

get a Marlin Semi Auto. Bill Ruger was intrumental in helping creating the concept of "high cap" magazine and force civilians to use magazines that have capacity less/equal to 10 rounds. In most of the states the ban is gone thanks to the last congress but in CA the ban is still in place due to SB23. Good ol' Bill also pushed for bans on "non-sporting" firearms.


and stay away from AKs for now, the DOJ says to ask the 58 DAs, the DAs say to ask the DOJ but they will prosecute it as an AW felony. THe law clearly says if it's not listed and the gun has no evil features then it's legit. But hey, the DAs are the once prosecuting.


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## PlayboyJoeShmoe (Jul 25, 2007)

*Re: What's the ProPoly of rifles?*

I don't have any long range shooting around here and find my 22s to be the absolute most used.

The Ruger 10/22 can be anything from bone stock to heavy barrel target stock CUSTOMs. 

I have a Marlin 60 semi-auto that I've had for YEARS. It finally needed a new buffer block inside, and once when it was DIRTY it went full auto.

I have a Marlin bolt (model 25 I think) with a 4-12x40 scope on it that is pretty damn accurate!

And I have a scratched up beater of a Browning lever action BL-22 that is one of the most fun and accurate guns I own!

In something with more umph, the SKS is pretty nice.

And for something ACCURATE and umph a heavy barrel bolt action .223 like my buddies would fit the bill.

But EVERYBODY should have at least one 22 rifle. And the 10/22 is a pretty good choice!


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## CLHC (Jul 25, 2007)

*Re: What's the ProPoly of rifles?*

Check out the TC Thompson/Center Arms.

http://www.tcarms.com/index.php


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## TigerhawkT3 (Jul 26, 2007)

*Re: What's the ProPoly of rifles?*

I had a feeling CPFers would understand the analogy. 

As for range, I'd say maybe 1-200y... I think. That's probably the longest distance you'll get at any common-or-garden range, right? I mean, I don't want to have the gun in a vice and see shots going all over the place, but I don't need to incapacitate APCs two miles away, either.

I don't have a preference as to shooting bolt action or semi, but IIRC, bolt actions are cheaper and more reliable, right? I'd be perfectly happy with a semi action that was simple and dependable, as well as contained in a not-too-expensive rifle.

I want something that I can _feel_, but not so much that it hurts. I'd say three-quarters of bruising power might be nice.

I'll check out the links and models mentioned. Kel-Tecs, at around $700 each, are out of the question (though very cool, of course). I'd prefer around $200-250, but could go into the $3-400 range I mentioned earlier if it was necessary to get the features and quality I wanted.


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## unnerv (Jul 26, 2007)

*Re: What's the ProPoly of rifles?*

If you want something you can feel, I would start with a .308. .223 is just too soft if you want to feel the recoil. A good bolt action will be much less expensive than anything semi and usually much easier to maintain.


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## GarageBoy (Jul 26, 2007)

*Re: What's the ProPoly of rifles?*

Get the bolt Marlin 22 and some good ammo, a scope and play sniper (22 reaches out pretty far)


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## atm (Jul 26, 2007)

*Re: What's the ProPoly of rifles?*

When I read ProPoly of rifles, I immediately thought of the old Remington Nylon 66. Had a couple of them, they were my first non-air rifle, well over 20 years ago now. They were a good first rifle for a kid, not so sure about an adult though?


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## BIGIRON (Jul 26, 2007)

*Re: What's the ProPoly of rifles?*

The Nylon66 is a great little rifle (discontinued in the early 80's I think). Weighs about 3.5lbs. Still have and shoot one. It gets to ride in the camper often.

I'm a fan of KelTecs. The Sub2000 in 9mm is great fun. I'm not familiar with the California market, but they can be had for $250 or so at gun shows. The KT 5.56mm rifles are usually under $500 here.

For bottom dollar shooting fun, you might want to check out one of the single shot combo guns form Rossi or NEF (and others). Rifle barrels from .17 to 45/70 and shotgun barrels in 410, 20 and 12. A friend has one with a scoped 223 barrel that's very accurate to 200 yds. www.cdnninvestments.com usually has some. You'll probably need to download their catalog, but it's got lots of interesting firearms and even a few flashlights.


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## cchurchi (Jul 26, 2007)

*Re: What's the ProPoly of rifles?*

For California residents I recommend:

http://www.bushmaster.com/shopping/Carbon15/azc-c15rm4ft.asp


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## 270winchester (Jul 26, 2007)

*Re: What's the ProPoly of rifles?*



cchurchi said:


> For California residents I recommend:
> 
> http://www.bushmaster.com/shopping/Carbon15/azc-c15rm4ft.asp



1: I believe it's a little out of the price range the OP wanted to spend.

2: I have seen a Carbon 15 with a jam at Chabot. To clear the jam it took 2 gunsmiths and a very large mallet. due to the design, you can't pull the magazine out, and if the round is stuck the top cannot be swinged open, and the bolt would be stuck also.


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## turkdc (Jul 26, 2007)

*Re: What's the ProPoly of rifles?*

A .22 is a great caliber to start out with if you are just learning to shoot. Ruger makes a nice one, but so does just about every other company. .22 ammo is inexpensive and easy to find at just about every wal-mart and such type store. I would assume that if you are looking to spend less than $300 on the rifle, money is a consideration. It doesn't get any cheaper than a .22!

If you have a purpose for said rifle, hunting varmints, etc then it is probably better to pick a caliber suited to the task at hand.

I will also mention that you can get a nice surefire for $3-400!


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## TigerhawkT3 (Jul 26, 2007)

*Re: What's the ProPoly of rifles?*

I'm starting to lean towards the Marlin rifles. Should I look at the .22LR or .22WM? Are there comparison sheets for the various models anywhere? Price lists?

How would I buy one of these, anyway? I'll probably see which ones they have at Big 5, but I'm guessing they won't have what I'm looking for.


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## GarageBoy (Jul 26, 2007)

*Re: What's the ProPoly of rifles?*

22LR- cheaper, wider variety, easier to get
WM is more powerful, though


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## TigerhawkT3 (Jul 26, 2007)

*Re: What's the ProPoly of rifles?*

I'll probably go with .22LR.

How about the 980S? Simple, reliable, fun, etc.?


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## BIGIRON (Jul 26, 2007)

*Re: What's the ProPoly of rifles?*

You can probably get most of the better 22lr/wm rifles in .17. Don't own one but have shot a couple. Generally speaking, they seem to be more accurate than the 22/s in the same rifles at distances beyond 50 yds. Ammo costs more and is not as readily available.

Spend some time around an outdoor range. You'll see all kinds of rifles and might even get to try a couple of them. Most shooters are delighted to help a beginner.


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## CLHC (Jul 26, 2007)

*Re: What's the ProPoly of rifles?*

If Marlin, why not go with the 444?

Now if you want to "feel" a "little" kick, how about the CheyTac M-200CIV? :huh:

Enjoy!


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## scott.cr (Jul 26, 2007)

*Re: What's the ProPoly of rifles?*

Kel Tek SU16 (as mentioned above) is a better-than-decent rifle. A friend of mine has one, and with a red dot scope he can hit a five-inch circle at 100 yards. The .223 ammo he mainly uses is $6 and change at Wal Mart for a box of 20 rounds.


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## mossyoak (Jul 26, 2007)

*Re: What's the ProPoly of rifles?*

ruger M77 .270 synthetic and stainless. not a whole lot to go wrong with it.


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## TigerhawkT3 (Jul 26, 2007)

*Re: What's the ProPoly of rifles?*

Well, I was just at Big 5, and they had a couple lever-action Marlins, but when I asked if they ever had the 980S, I got a definitive "no." They suggested Reed's, which I've been to before. I think that if any local store carried it, it would be them.

Anywhere else I can get a 980S?

EDIT: I just called Reed's, and they have the 981, but not the 980. Dang.


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## BIGIRON (Jul 26, 2007)

*Re: What's the ProPoly of rifles?*

www.gunbroker.com


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## fnmag (Jul 26, 2007)

*Re: What's the ProPoly of rifles?*



BIGIRON said:


> www.gunbroker.com


 

Now you're talkin'.


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## TigerhawkT3 (Jul 26, 2007)

*Re: What's the ProPoly of rifles?*

I checked them out a few minutes ago (actually still have a tab open!), and it looks like a pain with the FFL and such, especially the ~$60 "transfer fee." Does anyone know a place that sells the 980S in the Bay Area? :candle:


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## creampuff (Jul 26, 2007)

*Re: What's the ProPoly of rifles?*



TigerhawkT3 said:


> I checked them out a few minutes ago (actually still have a tab open!), and it looks like a pain with the FFL and such, especially the ~$60 "transfer fee." Does anyone know a place that sells the 980S in the Bay Area? :candle:


Contact Irvington arms in Fremont. Their inventory is fairly small, but they are very good about ordering for items, and getting it quickly. Prices are good, plus the staff is much more knowledgeable about their stuff than the average gun store.

Don't forget to pet their black lab , (Lumpy)?


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## CLHC (Jul 26, 2007)

*Re: What's the ProPoly of rifles?*

Try calling the following if you've not done so already:

Target Masters > > > 408.263.7468

Mel Cotton's Sporting Good's > > > 408.287.5994

Sportsman's Supply > > > 408.377.0674

Imbert & Smithers Inc. > > > 650.593.4207

Jackson Arms > > > 650.588.4209


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## BIGIRON (Jul 26, 2007)

*Re: What's the ProPoly of rifles?*

gunbroker is a good place to research and/or find a hard to get piece. I prefer to support my local independent dealers. Want to keep them in business even if it costs a little more. 

$60 FFL transfer? Does that include some kind of state costs? Several indie's here do them for $15. Also, if shipped from out of state, there should be no sales tax. The local FFL is not selling you the gun -- just handling the papers.


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## 270winchester (Jul 26, 2007)

*Re: What's the ProPoly of rifles?*

So Tigerhawk:

before you pay the money for anything:

can you prove you are a CA resident? IE do you have a car registered in your name? or a utility bill or a notarized housing contract? you will need that at the time of DROS(Dealer Record of Sales). without it you can't start the process and thus take possession of the said piece.


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## Marduke (Jul 26, 2007)

*Re: What's the ProPoly of rifles?*

The 925R is the same as the 980S except it's blued steel instead of stainless. I have the original 925 in wood and can say it's very accurate for a .22 with a 9x scope (0.55" 5 shot groups at 50 yards). Walmart will order any that they carry online, but you have to pick them up in your local store. Despite blued steel taking a little more care for maintenence, it's better if you every want to do small game hunting because it doesn't shine like stainless.

http://www.walmart.com/catalog/catalog.gsp?cat=170083


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## 270winchester (Jul 26, 2007)

*Re: What's the ProPoly of rifles?*



Marduke said:


> The 925R is the same as the 980S except it's blued steel instead of stainless. I have the original 925 in wood and can say it's very accurate for a .22 with a 9x scope (0.55" 5 shot groups at 50 yards). Walmart will order any that they carry online, but you have to pick them up in your local store. Despite blued steel taking a little more care for maintenence, it's better if you every want to do small game hunting because it doesn't shine like stainless.
> 
> http://www.walmart.com/catalog/catalog.gsp?cat=170083



walmart in CA doesn't sell firearms anymore due to a large law suit a while bac, and most don't sell ammo anymore.


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## Marduke (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: What's the ProPoly of rifles?*

Well, in that case, any self respecting local mom and pop gun shop should be willing to order a particular model as long as it's not too exotic and they already carry other models of that brand.


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## TigerhawkT3 (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: What's the ProPoly of rifles?*

I called Irvington Arms, and they said they could order a 980S for around $300. I neglected to ask them about any other prices.

I can't decide between 17HMR, 22LR, and 22WM. Ammo availability/price, rifle price, recoil, accuracy, fun... I'm calling Big 5 tomorrow to see what types of ammo they have, then Irvington to find out some prices for other Marlins. I'll also give those other stores a call to see what they have (and for how much).

You know, I'm not sure I'd be able to prove my residency. My dad paid for my car, and he manages the utility bills. Would a credit card bill work? That's pretty much all I have that I can think of. I'll check my car's registration in the morning. (Maybe I could show them a picture of my room, and say, "this kind of mess takes YEARS of careful planning and sloth!" :laughing: )


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## BIGIRON (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: What's the ProPoly of rifles?*

Voters registration card should do it. And don't tell me you're not registered to vote!!!! (to protect your right to buy the rifle)


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## Marduke (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: What's the ProPoly of rifles?*

Driver's license??


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## GarageBoy (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: What's the ProPoly of rifles?*

.17HMR is flatter in trajectory and a little more accurate
.22LR is the standard in rimfire
.22 magnum is more powerful and you can easily hunt small game


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## 270winchester (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: What's the ProPoly of rifles?*

voter registration card is not legal in CA, as it does not have an expiration date.

Driver's license is required to prove who you are but cannot 
be used to prove your residency.

the bills must be tied to a physical address with regards to the physical structure, for example utility, land-line phone, land-line internet, etc . they must be from within the last three months. Cell phone, credit card bills, etc cannot be used according to the law.

another thing you can do is have your dad draft up a housing agreement with you(if he owns the residence you live in) and notarize it. 

also make sure you have no out-standing traffic tickets. The DROS costs 25 dollars and cannot be refunded, and you can get rejected for many reasons.

buying a handgun is even more complicated andconfusing. I was surprised they didn't require a cavity search when it was all done.


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## smokinbasser (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: What's the ProPoly of rifles?*

I used to have a Remington nylon 66, somehow my ex wound up with it, exellent little target shooter. I have the successor to the nylon 66 in the remington 522 viper, it seems to follow the 66 in design with minor differences.Still a tackdriver with a good scope on it.


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## BIGIRON (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: What's the ProPoly of rifles?*

The bureaucratic mind never ceases to amaze. You can vote with a voters registration card but you can't buy a rimfire rifle. I guess that demonstrates the value the pols put on the individual vote -- it doesn't mean much. Priorities get seriously skewed a lot of the time.

Actually, it demonstrates the pol's desire for you to not have a rifle. Period.


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## cslinger (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: What's the ProPoly of rifles?*

Not sure if the OP bought yet but I would highly suggest .22 Long Rifle as it is dirt cheap, about as fun as fun gets and can be found anywhere.

As for the platform I would look hard at the CZ452 series bolt guns. These guns fall in your price range and are WAY better guns then the price would suggest. There is nothing that can touch them for bang for the buck. The iron sighted models have excellent irons.

I would suggest doing a gunbroker search for either a 452 special or a 452 Lux.

Below is a CZ452FS or Full Stock. The scope is no longer mounted because the irons are just some kind of fun.






Below is a CZ452 Varmint. This gun is the first .22LR that I can shoot extremely small groups out to 100 yards with. It is an amazing gun.


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## TigerhawkT3 (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: What's the ProPoly of rifles?*

That residence thing will be a pain. I'll probably have to create and notarize a housing agreement with my father, as 270 suggested.

Irvington said that the Marlin 917 (17HMR) is $245, the 980S (22LR) is $295, and the 982VS (22WM) is $305. So, there's a bit of a savings for the 17, but not much difference between the LR and WM. Should I just go for the 22LR, to guarantee cheap and common ammo (like AA alks for the ProPoly)?


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## Monocrom (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: What's the ProPoly of rifles?*

First thing that popped into my mind when I read the title of the topc.... Jeff Cooper's Scout Rifle design.


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## 270winchester (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: What's the ProPoly of rifles?*



TigerhawkT3 said:


> That residence thing will be a pain. I'll probably have to create and notarize a housing agreement with my father, as 270 suggested.
> 
> Irvington said that the Marlin 917 (17HMR) is $245, the 980S (22LR) is $295, and the 982VS (22WM) is $305. So, there's a bit of a savings for the 17, but not much difference between the LR and WM. Should I just go for the 22LR, to guarantee cheap and common ammo (like AA alks for the ProPoly)?



in CA the 17HMR and 22WM cam be as expensive as 45ACP ammo so good call on the 22LR. You can always find some CCI stingers for a little extra kick, or some subsonics for accurate target shooting. a bolt can usually shoot 22short, 22long, and 22CB(conic ball) as well.

be aware that you will have to wait 10 days for the rifle.


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## PlayboyJoeShmoe (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: What's the ProPoly of rifles?*

I've never tried CBs in my Marlin bolt, but my Browning Lever Action eats 'em up! And if it wasn't such a pita to try, I'd report on the use of CB in a Marlin.

Maybe I'll do it anyway, as I need to check on the condition of the stuff in the safe!


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## Marduke (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: What's the ProPoly of rifles?*

Easy way around the whole residency thing, bring your father along and let him purchase the rifle for you. And I would definitely go with the .22 over the .17 for ammo $$ reasons. You'll have a better idea of what you want and like when it's time to upgrade to a bigger/better gun later.


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## BIGIRON (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: What's the ProPoly of rifles?*

Try the long version of the CB. They'll manually cycle thru anything a LR will.


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## fnmag (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: What's the ProPoly of rifles?*

I understand that this is your 1st rifle. Don't get a .17HMR or a 22WM. Get a .22LR. Expense and availablility are serious concerns. Example, you're 123 miles north of Susanville and you run out of ammo. You run into the nearest store, miles and miles away....good luck trying to find .17 or 22WM. Both are much more expensive than a .22LR. Don't even go to that extreme, simply go into your local gun store, assuming there are a few left in Ca. and price that .17 ammo. If you're of age, a stiff drink would be recommended 1st. The .22LR is the ProPoly of ammo, period. If you feel the need for a larger caliber, then I'd suggest a rifle that will accept military surplus ammo. Then get one that uses inexpensive surplus ammo. Things change. 8MM Mauser used to be dirt cheap. Same with .303 British, but no more! I can remember when 7.62X39 was prohibitively expensive to buy, in the 70s, but now it is dirt cheap. Remington Nylon 66, one of the very best semi-autos ever made. They are now being collected and their price can be stiff. Any decent .22LR is the way to go. In closing, everybody NEEDS a decent .22LR, if not a couple. Good luck and enjoy.


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## RCatR (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: What's the ProPoly of rifles?*

Go with tried & true:
Yugo m48 (or any other good-condition mauser)

Bolt-action, uses 8x56mm ammo; around $200 and next to an SKS is the definition of reliability

(I've pushes 100's of rounds through both an SKS and mauser; I have had 0 jams and every shot has been placed right-on)

**EDIT**
I agree fully with fnmag's opinion above


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## TigerhawkT3 (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: What's the ProPoly of rifles?*

22LR it is.

I'll head over to Irvington tomorrow and see if they can help me with all the legal requirements.

The notarized housing agreement is probably my best bet for residency. I don't think getting my dad to buy it would really work, as saying "he hates guns" would be putting it very mildly. I broke the news to him earlier tonight during dinner, and he basically said "you know what I think about that, but you're 21 and I can't stop you." He also said that I can't drive with it in my car, because since it's registered in his name, anything bad that happens will involve him in terms of liability. I just hope that the friend at whose house I'm storing it eventually gets a functional car.

This is just so #&^% complicated. :thumbsdow


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## 270winchester (Jul 28, 2007)

*Re: What's the ProPoly of rifles?*



TigerhawkT3 said:


> 22LR it is.
> 
> I'll head over to Irvington tomorrow and see if they can help me with all the legal requirements.
> 
> ...




yeah, I didn't suggest that route because I know many people in the Bay Area have been taught to hate guns since kindergarden, even the middle aged people. it's compeltely legal for parents to buy rifles and shotguns for their kids(for now), but that greatly depends on the parents.

Fortunately my Dad's home state was Ohio. He grew up with the understanding that our constitution is the supreme law of the land, and inanimate objects and just that, inanimate. 

BTW if you are storing it at a friend's house, you may consider getting a good trigger lock and/or rendering the rifle unfunctional by taking the bolt home, for liability reasons since it will not be under your direct supervision. that's the one condition that my Dad imposed on me: buy a safe. good advice too.


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## TigerhawkT3 (Jul 28, 2007)

*Re: What's the ProPoly of rifles?*

Actually, my Dad immigrated here from Brazil a little over 20 years ago. My sister and I were born here.

I think all guns come with a free lock these days, right? And if not, I can get one free somewhere. Even if they're not free, they shouldn't be too expensive, I'd guess.

Removing the bolt sounds like a good idea. Should I also remove the firing pin or something, or would that be too much?

I'm planning on heading over to Irvington Arms later this afternoon. :twothumbs


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## Marduke (Jul 28, 2007)

*Re: What's the ProPoly of rifles?*

The firing pin is located inside the bolt. A trigger lock or cable lock that goes through the magazine slot in the stock so the bolt cannot close would suffice, and both can be had for $5-20.


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## TigerhawkT3 (Jul 28, 2007)

*Re: What's the ProPoly of rifles?*

Well, I did it! I went to Irvington Arms earlier this afternoon and had them order me a Marlin 980S. It's a bolt-action, synthetic-stock, stainless steel-barrel, box magazine-fed rifle that takes .22LR. Including the safe I bought and tax, it came out to about $313. The $295 price I had previously been quoted was for 980S-CF, the one with the carbon fiber pattern. The simpler one (the one I got) was $265.

You know, it was surprisingly easy. They checked out my driver's license, asked me questions (felony, fugitive, etc.), had me fill out a form, and that was it! I paid them already, and they'll call when they get it in. Now all I have to do is figure out how to get it to my friend's house (he doesn't currently own a working automobile  ). We'll figure something out.


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## TedTheLed (Jul 28, 2007)

*Re: What's the ProPoly of rifles? **Got a Marlin 980S!***

'when they get it' ? I bet that takes at least 10 days.. 

(btw what's an HSC?)


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## 270winchester (Jul 29, 2007)

*Re: What's the ProPoly of rifles?*



TigerhawkT3 said:


>



um, did you fill out the form called DROS? paying for the rifle is one thing, but if they don't have the serial number of the rifle they cannot start the DROS process, and you are going to have to deal with the residence thing eventually. Once the rifle comes in, they then start the DROS(dealer record of sales) and then after 10 days you can pick it up.

if they did the DROS with you and didn't ask for proof of residency, you may consider revising part of the post and not get those guys in trouble.


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## 270winchester (Jul 29, 2007)

*Re: What's the ProPoly of rifles? **Got a Marlin 980S!***



TedTheLed said:


> 'when they get it' ? I bet that takes at least 10 days..
> 
> (btw what's an HSC?)



handgun safety certificate. It's a test you have to take prior to buying a pistol, revolver or anything that is capable of being concealed upon the person. it costs 25 dollars and expires in 5 years. Without it you can't buy, borrow, or in any other fashion take possession of any handgun.


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## TigerhawkT3 (Jul 29, 2007)

*Re: What's the ProPoly of rifles? **Got a Marlin 980S!***

Oh... I guess I'll be doing that when the piece comes in.

Forgot a link.


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## 270winchester (Jul 29, 2007)

*Re: What's the ProPoly of rifles? **Got a Marlin 980S!***



TigerhawkT3 said:


> Oh... I guess I'll be doing that when the piece comes in.
> 
> Forgot a link.



let me know how it works. I have a couple of Marlin Semi autos and a bolt and they are really durable and accurate. I have been looking at their stainless models for a while but can't get over the "bling" factor.

BTW congrats and hope you become another responsible life-long gun owner, just what we need in California.


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## TedTheLed (Jul 29, 2007)

*Re: What's the ProPoly of rifles? **Got a Marlin 980S!***

thanks 270 -- not owning a handgun I didn't know HSC meant Handgun Safety Certificate. alll I could think of was "High School Certidicate" which seemed an odd item to require for a handgun purchase but not a shot gun, though cetainly a step in the right direction..


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## fnmag (Jul 29, 2007)

*Re: What's the ProPoly of rifles? **Got a Marlin 980S!***

HSC...Mauser semi-auto in .380ACP(9mm Kurz). :twothumbs


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## TigerhawkT3 (Aug 9, 2007)

A few more forms and a thumbprint, and I picked up my rifle yesterday! 

My buddy and I went straight to the range, where we plinked at some paper targets. I'd never used an indoor range before, so that was pretty cool. After some 7 and 10 yard shots, I did the rest at 20y, standing, no scope. By the end, I was doing pretty well! My buddy and I alternated every few clips. The farthest he could shoot at was 15y, because he didn't have his glasses with him. :laughing:

I might buy a scope for it if I want to shoot more than 100y.

Sorry - I didn't bring my camera with me yesterday because I didn't think I'd get to shoot, so no pics or videos.

I'm now absolutely sure that every American who wants one and can get one should own a rifle, purely for enjoyment value. It's a wonderful feeling.

I might rent some of the pieces available at the range, just to get some variety. They've got a .500 Mag that I should try. :twothumbs


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## Marduke (Aug 9, 2007)

TigerhawkT3 said:


> I might buy a scope for it if I want to shoot more than 100y.



You'll want a 3-9x scope for anything past 50yds. Don't expect that great of results past 100yd, that's getting mighty close the maximum useful range of a .22


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## TigerhawkT3 (Aug 11, 2007)

I'm going shooting on Saturday afternoon (techincally today), and hopefully I'll get to take some pics and vids!

Hooray for firearms.


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## bitslammer (Aug 11, 2007)

And now you know the joy of having a .22LR. You can a 5 gallon bucket of rounds for next to nothing and shoot until your eye gets tired. :thumbsup:

The other nice thing is that if you do get a scope just shooting 50yds will probably give you all the skill needed to shoot longer ranges with other rifles and scopes. The technique doesn't change it just takes a more steady pull to hit well at 100/200/300 yards. If you can group them well at 50 you be on the mark at 100.


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## PlayboyJoeShmoe (Aug 11, 2007)

On my Marlin 25? bolt gun I have a pretty good scope with a 40MM objective.

It is NICE to look through!

I have a lightweight little 22 scope on my Browing Lever gun cause it don't need a big one!


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## BIGIRON (Aug 11, 2007)

Congrats! And welcome to the world of gun guys n' gals. You'll have great fun. Maybe you can talk your Dad into popping off a couple. Would be great if you could convert him.

I second most of what was posted about scopes. Avoid the small $9.95 "22" scopes. Get a full 1 inch tube scope and appropriate rings.

I don't agree with the advice regarding higher power scopes. A 2x7 would be the most I'd use and a 1.5x4 would be ideal, particularly if you think you might hunt with it. A straight 4x is not at all bad.


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## knot (Aug 11, 2007)

TigerhawkT3 said:


> I'm thinking of getting a rifle, and I think the best way to describe what I want is to compare it to a ProPoly.
> 
> -Inexpensive
> -Popular
> ...



I haven't read the whole thread but a Ruger Mini 14 is a great rifle. .223 NATO rounds are cheap and at that velocity, shoots a straight trajectory at distance. You can change the stalk with many different configs such as: 

The most striking feature of the MUZZELITE bullpup stock, when attached to your action, is the overall length of 26-1/2". This allows you to carry the rifle with much greater mobility. Whether your sport is hunting or plinking, the MUZZELITE bullpup stock will convert a long rifle into a compact weapon system in just a matter of minutes!


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## Datasaurusrex (Aug 11, 2007)

knot said:


> I haven't read the whole thread but a Ruger Mini 14 is a great rifle. .223 NATO rounds are cheap and at that velocity, shoots a straight trajectory at distance. You can change the stalk with many different configs such as:
> 
> The most striking feature of the MUZZELITE bullpup stock, when attached to your action, is the overall length of 26-1/2". This allows you to carry the rifle with much greater mobility. Whether your sport is hunting or plinking, the MUZZELITE bullpup stock will convert a long rifle into a compact weapon system in just a matter of minutes!



I'd say the exact opposite. The nicest thing one can say about the Ruger Mini 14 is that they go bang when you pull the trigger, and that they make an 'ok ranch rifle.'

They are notorious for being inaccurate, once the barrel heats up, which take about 2 rounds being fired  The phrase 'minute of barn' has been used to describe their accurary, at best you can expect 'minute of coyote' (when the coyote's not too far away).

The aftermarket bullpup kits are well known for having a horrible trigger. The linkage/transfer bar drags bad. If you want short, then stick with an AR with an adjustable stock, or just a folding stock on the Mini.

Ruger also restricts sales of their standard capacity magazines for the Mini, for no legal reason whatsoever. Ruger just decided that civilians don't deserve to have access to the factory 20 round mags, so when you find them NIB the cost is 3x that of a standard capacity mag for an AR15. 

All the aftermarket Ruger mags suck, factory is the only one that work (well, old PMI work but are no longer manufactured).

If someone is even remotely tempted by the Ruger Mini 14, I'd suggest researching the topic on a real gun forum first (and also the bullpup stock). After doing that I think the odds are good you'll opt for something else ::cough:: AR15 ::cough::

$.02


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## 270winchester (Aug 11, 2007)

Bullpups are illegal in CA and a few other states for centerfire rifles, BTW. The SB23 that came into effect in 2000 stated that any center fire rifle, with a detachable magazine, is illegal to have a grip that protrudes conspicuously below the line of action, IE no pistol grips. Apparent having pistol grips makes the shooter want to "shoot from the hip and spray randomly"(I'm not kidding, that's the justification from the Dems in the state and the Brady Bunch).

A violation of SB23 is a felony, prison time. I don't want any fellow CPFers in Ca to go to prison for a law that serves no real purpose.



knot said:


> I haven't read the whole thread but a Ruger Mini 14 is a great rifle. .223 NATO rounds are cheap and at that velocity, shoots a straight trajectory at distance. You can change the stalk with many different configs such as:
> 
> The most striking feature of the MUZZELITE bullpup stock, when attached to your action, is the overall length of 26-1/2". This allows you to carry the rifle with much greater mobility. Whether your sport is hunting or plinking, the MUZZELITE bullpup stock will convert a long rifle into a compact weapon system in just a matter of minutes!


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## 270winchester (Aug 11, 2007)

Datasaurusrex said:


> ::cough:: AR15 ::cough::
> 
> $.02



CA, MA, NJ, HI, and a few other states explicitly ban ARs, or any other detachable-magazine fed center fire rifle with pistol grips. The whole concept of OLLs is another can of worms that I don't want to open here.


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## TigerhawkT3 (Aug 13, 2007)

Okey dokey, it's finally time for pics and videos! 

First, the videos. My sincerest apologies about the crazy background noise; the range had some powerful vents going that I wasn't aware of (wearing ears, of course).

1. Me with my new Marlin. I pop in a mag, fire a round, get a misfire, fire a couple more rounds, and bring the target in. Hooray!



2. Me with a .454 revolver. A very generous shooter allowed my friend and me to fire a couple rounds out of it. This one is me with the ordinary .454 rounds it uses.



3. My best friend Leor with a .454 revolver. Now my buddy had to try it out! :twothumbs



4. Leor with a .460 load! Same revolver as above, but with a substantially longer cartridge, funny-looking projectile, and enormous power!

And, for those of you with slow connections, here are some stills:












(I'm going for the target on the far right of the pic.)





My conclusion: Guns are happy times.


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## fieldops (Aug 14, 2007)

270winchester said:


> CA, MA, NJ, HI, and a few other states explicitly ban ARs, or any other detachable-magazine fed center fire rifle with pistol grips. The whole concept of OLLs is another can of worms that I don't want to open here.



I was not aware that bullpups were illegal in CA. Wow.

Here in MA, its just a nutty state. Our Gun control act of 1998 was just a copy of the federal ban. AR-15s and AKs can still be legally owned and sold. Pre-bans are treated the same way they were under the old federal assault ban. Anything that was post ban under the federal law is still readily sold in MA. The trick is that you have to get a _*High Capacity License to carry*_. It is $100 for 4 years :shakehead. Issuing discretion is entirely at the hands of the local police chief. If he likes you, you can get one. If he doesn't like your tie color, he doesn't have to give you one. Sure, you can sue, but how many have the means or time to do it. It's sad.


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## 270winchester (Aug 15, 2007)

fieldops said:


> I was not aware that bullpups were illegal in CA. Wow.
> 
> Here in MA, its just a nutty state. Our Gun control act of 1998 was just a copy of the federal ban. AR-15s and AKs can still be legally owned and sold. Pre-bans are treated the same way they were under the old federal assault ban. Anything that was post ban under the federal law is still readily sold in MA. The trick is that you have to get a _*High Capacity License to carry*_. It is $100 for 4 years :shakehead. Issuing discretion is entirely at the hands of the local police chief. If he likes you, you can get one. If he doesn't like your tie color, he doesn't have to give you one. Sure, you can sue, but how many have the means or time to do it. It's sad.



yeah, in CA the AR15s are consider "Assault Weapons" under SB23. SB23 was the dream of the congress in 94 but they didn't have the will to do it so they used the CA atmosphere to use as a prototype for other states in the future. The owners that owned them before Jan 1st, 2000 could register it, but you cannot sell, lend, or even have anyone else in control of it while in CA. when you die the state gets it or your estate would have to sell it to a registered AW dealer to a party out of state within 30 days, and hte number of AW dealers(serving Law Enforcement only) are few in numbers in this state, so most people's estate choose to give the rifles to the LE agencies to not get arrested for possession of an AW. Think about it, when a loved one die who will be thinking of how to sell a rifle to OUT OF STATE?

Now because of the way SB23 was written, it is entirely legal to have AR-compatible receivers that are not names on the ban to have pistol grips IF you fix the magazine(less than 10 round capacity) to the rifle. But the DAs are still prosecuting and the DOJ is still breaking down doors for it. COps are exempt from said rule. 

No one can have magazines over 10 rounds in this state with the exception of fixed tubular magazines on rimfire rifles. Of course cops are exempt from that.

It is also illegal to buy a new handgun that's not on the "safe" list, which now requires an external safety, magazine disconnect, loaded chamber indicator. There are some older handguns on the list but they are dropping off the list FAST. They are thinking of doing micro-stamping by 2010. Of course cops are exempt even for personal guns.

There is not such thing as a AW permit except on paper and for movie studios.


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## fieldops (Aug 15, 2007)

270winchester said:


> It is also illegal to buy a new handgun that's not on the "safe" list, which now requires an external safety, magazine disconnect, loaded chamber indicator. There are some older handguns on the list but they are dropping off the list FAST. They are thinking of doing micro-stamping by 2010. Of course cops are exempt even for personal guns.There is not such thing as a AW permit except on paper and for movie studios.



tell me these state AGs are not in collusion about this stuff. Our AG also had a special "handgun safety" roster made up. No legislation was needed because it was for the "public safety" and consumer product protection :shakehead. It was required that all semi pistols be dropped on ALL sides onto concrete from 6.22 feet without discharging. Of course all my 1911A1s were immediately placed on the list. Even series 80/90 Colts were put on it. The manufacturer had to conduct these tests under supervision and at their own cost. Many manufacturers just said "the heck with it'. They probably figured, How many sales were they going to have in MA anyway? It's disgusting all around imho.


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## fieldops (Aug 15, 2007)

My apologies Tiger for getting off topic. Congrats on getting your new rifle. Hope you enjoy it. I used to love to shoot old CCIs in my Marlin years ago. it made a great Saturday afternoon.


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## TigerhawkT3 (Aug 16, 2007)

fieldops said:


> My apologies Tiger for getting off topic. Congrats on getting your new rifle. Hope you enjoy it. I used to love to shoot old CCIs in my Marlin years ago. it made a great Saturday afternoon.


No problem! All of these posts about gun laws would be very helpful to other newbie gun shoppers.

Yeah, I'm loving the Marlin! There's only one problem: now I want more (i.e. larger calibers)...


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## PlayboyJoeShmoe (Aug 16, 2007)

The SKS is a decent rifle in 7.62x39.

My Chinese model was more accurate than a Russian or a Romanian on the same day shooting the same Wolf ammo. YMMV!!!


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## 270winchester (Aug 16, 2007)

TigerhawkT3 said:


> No problem! All of these posts about gun laws would be very helpful to other newbie gun shoppers.
> 
> Yeah, I'm loving the Marlin! There's only one problem: now I want more (i.e. larger calibers)...



you should check out Los Altos Rod and Gun club in Los Gatos area, they have a 40 yard tin can range for the kid in all of us. and yes rapid fire is allowed on there with 22s....


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## 270winchester (Aug 16, 2007)

they are.

the drop test was the first step toward "safe handguns" in CA, they started with that and all the rest followed. Anybody who said no would be against "safety". Look for similar legislations in you area and act before it's too late.

In fact I believe if a model passes CA drop test, it would be certified for sale in MA as well, someone correct me if I got it mixed up.

In fact a lot of revolvers(many good SWs are not available here) are excluded from the list here because of the requirements, so the idea of safe varies apparently...



fieldops said:


> tell me these state AGs are not in collusion about this stuff. Our AG also had a special "handgun safety" roster made up. No legislation was needed because it was for the "public safety" and consumer product protection :shakehead. It was required that all semi pistols be dropped on ALL sides onto concrete from 6.22 feet without discharging. Of course all my 1911A1s were immediately placed on the list. Even series 80/90 Colts were put on it. The manufacturer had to conduct these tests under supervision and at their own cost. Many manufacturers just said "the heck with it'. They probably figured, How many sales were they going to have in MA anyway? It's disgusting all around imho.


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## Bullzeyebill (Aug 16, 2007)

In CA it is more than just anti gun sentiment that leads to "drop tests" and the like. It is about money and the fees required to test and purchase handguns. True, our politicians are grazing on the anti-gun sentiment coming from the big cities, mostly northern CA cities that are powerless to stop major crime and look to blame something for the problem. Short sighted, true, but real, and dangerous for those of us that see the bigger picture, and the danger of removing weapons from the general population.

Bill


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## knot (Aug 16, 2007)

Datasaurusrex said:


> They are notorious for being inaccurate, once the barrel heats up, which take about 2 rounds being fired  The phrase 'minute of barn' has been used to describe their accurary, at best you can expect 'minute of coyote' (when the coyote's not too far away).





270winchester said:


> Bullpups are illegal in CA and a few other states for centerfire rifles, BTW. The SB23 that came into effect in 2000 stated that any center fire rifle, with a detachable magazine, is illegal to have a grip that protrudes conspicuously below the line of action, IE no pistol grips. Apparent having pistol grips makes the shooter want to "shoot from the hip and spray randomly"(I'm not kidding, that's the justification from the Dems in the state and the Brady Bunch).
> 
> A violation of SB23 is a felony, prison time. I don't want any fellow CPFers in Ca to go to prison for a law that serves no real purpose.




I never had a problem with inaccuracy - but check out the mini 14 TARGET: http://www.gunsandammomag.com/long_guns/GAmini_111606inset.jpg

I also owned H&K 91 and 93 (I have no idea what the laws are in California but when I lived there and owned several guns, the HK models were current and there was no helmet law for motorcycles. That gives you an idea how long ago that was)

RUGER MINI 14 223 STAINLESS 










> All the aftermarket Ruger mags suck,


 Never had a single jam with 40 round clips. These SS clips look great: http://www.sportsmansguide.com/cb/cb.asp?a=119430


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## Bullzeyebill (Aug 17, 2007)

Ruger's accuracy standard for the Mini-14 is 2" at 50 yards with Federal Ammo. Not sure which Federal 223. That was a couple of years ago. I would like to see it be 2" at 100 yards with white box bulk Winchester ammo, then I would be happy. 

Bill


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## fieldops (Aug 17, 2007)

I've had a bunch of mini 14s over the years. I think it was a 180 series in stainless during the late 70s. Cracks were developing in the receivers. Mine was ok. The 181 and later series had no stainless issues. It was a fun rifle to shoot. 
The SKS are fun too. I used to play with the Choate folders until the ATF 922r came about in the early 90s.


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## TigerhawkT3 (Aug 17, 2007)

I just heard a rumor that CA will pass a law limiting ammo purchases to something like one box per month. Is this true?? Should I stock up before it's too late? :huh: After all, my buddy and I can use 200 rounds in a single afternoon at the range.


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## Bullzeyebill (Aug 17, 2007)

Not heard that rumor. The micro-stamping of primers pending legislation has reared its ugly head again. I do not, for the life of me, know where these people come from that think up such crazy ideas. City folks, afraid of their own cities coming up with legislation that is not going to curtail crime, but may curtail gun ownership by honest citizens. 

Got to stop, and it is off topic. I am thrilled that TigerhawkT3 likes his new Marlin 22.

Bill


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## 270winchester (Aug 17, 2007)

TigerhawkT3 said:


> I just heard a rumor that CA will pass a law limiting ammo purchases to something like one box per month. Is this true?? Should I stock up before it's too late? :huh: After all, my buddy and I can use 200 rounds in a single afternoon at the range.



there was a bill in the state legislature that if passed will limit of pistol ammo sales from non-FFLs to 50 rounds per month. SO if you want to buy more than 50 rounds of 45auto and you have to buy from a FFL. IE you can't sell/give you friends 51 rounds of ammo, and gunshow pistol ammo sales will be out-lawed since most ammo dealer/makers are NOT FFLs. the bill is called AB362 authored by Assembly member Delon..

on surface it will only affect "normal" pistol califbers like 45, 9mm, 40SW, etc, but since many rifle calibers have been used in pistols as well as bolt-action hunting handguns like the Thompson contender, the list of affected ammo will include most of everything from 22 short to 300Win Mag and everything in between. Since there are some handguns that are chambered in 410, even some shotgun cartridges will be affected.



it's not a rumor, it's a bill was proposed in the name of fighting crime.

in fact AB362 in its original form would do more than that:
http://www.gunnewsdaily.com/rw731.html

the quick look at the bill:

AB 362, as introduced, De Leon. Ammunition.
Existing law generally regulates the sale of ammunition.
This bill would require that commencing July 1, 2008, unless
specifically excluded, no person shall sell or transfer more than 50
rounds of handgun ammunition in any month unless they are registered
as a handgun ammunition vendor, as defined. The bill would also
require these vendors to obtain a background clearance for those
employees who would handle ammunition in the course and scope of
their employment. The bill would require the Department of Justice to
maintain a registry of registered handgun ammunition vendors, as
specified. Violation of these provisions, as specified, would be a
misdemeanor.
The bill would also provide that no retail seller of ammunition
shall sell, offer for sale, or display for sale, any handgun
ammunition in a manner that allows that ammunition to be accessible
to a purchaser without the assistance of the retailer or employee
thereof. Violation of these provisions would be punishable as an
infraction with a fine of $500, or as a misdemeanor.
The bill would further provide that no ammunition or reloaded
ammunition may be delivered by a common or contract carrier pursuant
to a retail transaction unless certain conditions exist. A violation
of these provisions would be punishable as a misdemeanor, with
enhancements for prior violations.
By creating new crimes, this bill would impose a state-mandated
local program.
Existing law provides that it is a crime to sell ammunition to a
minor, or to sell handgun ammunition to a person who is under 21
years of age.
This bill would provide that any person under 21 years of age who
purchases, or who attempts to purchase, handgun ammunition by using a
false identification document, or by otherwise misrepresenting the
person's age, and any minor who purchases, or attempts to purchase,
any ammunition by using a false identification document, or otherwise
misrepresenting the person's age, is guilty of a misdemeanor.
By creating a new crime, this bill would impose a state-mandated
local program.
The California Constitution requires the state to reimburse local
agencies and school districts for certain costs mandated by the
state. Statutory provisions establish procedures for making that
reimbursement.
This bill would provide that no reimbursement is required by this
act for a specified reason.
Vote: majority. Appropriation: no. Fiscal committee: yes.
State-mandated local program: yes. "

so Tigerhawk, you friend wouldn;t able to give you more than a box of 22LR without committing a crime.

At present time, the bill has been "gutted" but can be rephrased anytime in form of another bill. THe concept of "gutting" is a topic for a whole day of political process discussion.


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## PlayboyJoeShmoe (Aug 18, 2007)

I had a blued mini 14 back in the early 80's that was at least 2" at 100yds accurate if not even better.

The stainless mini 14 I got a couple of years ago could not hit the side of a barn from the inside!

I read recently that other things considered, larger bullets will be more accurate than small ones.

And about Calfornication laws, as CA goes EVENTUALLY so will the rest of the country. Perhaps I'll be dead and gone before Texas bows to such nonsense!


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## TigerhawkT3 (Aug 28, 2007)

A .22LR becomes even more comfortable and inexpensive to fire when you compare it to other guns. I was at the range yesterday afternoon, and I tried out a 12ga., firing 9 buckshot loads and 10 slugs.

Ouch, my shoulder!  Ouch, my wallet!  Extremely fun, but a buck per shot.

Several hours later, and I still smell like a firing range. 

The moral of the story is "try before you buy." My friend was considering a .30-06 for boarhunting, but when he was informed that it would have more kick than the 12ga. with slugs (which he tried with me at the range), he scrapped that idea real fast. :laughing: .

Sorry for babbling, but large calibers are so much fun.


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