# Anybody use expandable batons?



## rycen (Sep 28, 2002)

brands,are they ok to be carried by non leo?


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## PhilAlex (Sep 28, 2002)

Asp is the grandaddy, but expensive.

Legal? Depends where you are.


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## Charles Bradshaw (Sep 28, 2002)

Law Enforcement frowns on non-leo, carrying any form of weapon. If you have weapon, the presumption of guilt in crime is automatic. If under seat in vehicle and you don't have a concealed carry permit for it, then you ARE guilty of a felony.

Now, if I was out backpacking in the wilderness, I would want a couple of compact weapons for defensive purposes. Telescoping baton fits that category.

I don't mind being invited *to* dinner. I do mind being invited *for* dinner.


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## SPECIALIST (Sep 28, 2002)

In certain states you can be certified by taking a four hour course and then you can get a carry permit. I wish my state would allow me to carry one. I would defently go with an ASP, they run about 60 bucks, not that bad if you consider how much everyone here spends on one flashlight. I carry in my car a 6D maglite as an alternative to a baton.

Charles Bradshaw: I dont exactly agree with your statement above, yes if you have a pistol under your seat with out a permit you will defentely be hauled in for UCW. But I would say that unless you are being a real jerk to the officer he will probably will not haul you in for basically any other type of weapon(that is unless you live in a socialist regime like England, California, New Jersey, or anywhere populated by sheeple) because almost anything could be considered a "weapon". I always dress as nicely as possible and carry myself well and have yet to be stopped by LEO. The bottom line is you carry a weapon concealed for a reason, and unless you flash it or use it on someone, a cop has no reason to pat you down or give you vehicle search.


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## MeridianTactical (Sep 30, 2002)

I live in Mass, Batons are a no-no sadly... I can carry a gun (yes I have a CCW) but not a baton, where is the logic? 

But if they are leagal in your area, get one! well worth having one, its a great equalizer. I would perfer one myself for less than leathal encounters.

Chris


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## BuddTX (Sep 30, 2002)

Does anyone know if they are legal to carry in TX?

I've often thought that an ASP light and baton would be much better than a 6D mag to keep in the car.


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## **DONOTDELETE** (Sep 30, 2002)

BuddTX:
I've got a CHL here in Texas. I'll check the manual to see what it says about batons. There is a section in it that describes weapons of differing types and their legality.


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## GJW (Sep 30, 2002)

They're a no-no here in CA.


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## **DONOTDELETE** (Sep 30, 2002)

Well, I called the central office after wading thru the jargon in my manual. They said that the CHL didn't allow a person to carry a baton, mace, blackjack, etc. 
So... I called my local law enforcement agency, and was told that you could not carry one unless you took a special class specifically for them. Officers have to do this. 
Conclusion: pretty much a no-no, even here in Texas. I do see the logic in this,(It deters any old thug from carrying weapons), but I would think a baddie would want me whacking him with a glorified club rather than being ventilated by the smoke wagon. ;-)


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## Quickbeam (Sep 30, 2002)

I'm not a lawyer, and I don't play one on TV




, but I spoke to an officer and he said that here baton carry is legal provided it isn't concealed - AKA you have to carry it in a holster like what the police use so that it's in plain sight. If you are on your own property you can carry it concealed any way you want.

I'm a proponent of pepper spray and pepper foam. The police here had recommended in an article that civilians carry no smaller than a 2 oz. canister if they decide to carry it. (NC weapons laws apparently aren't quite as draconian as other areas in the country.)

Fox Labs brand is supposed to be one of the most effective and is available from www.selfdefenseproducts.com. I've placed several orders with them and always been satisfied. 

If you decide to go this route, be sure to learn about it's use and get some inert practice containers to practice with (and a partner).


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## Charles Bradshaw (Sep 30, 2002)

There is on "slight" hitch: US Code, as Revised makes it a Felony to own or possess any weapon, or, anything the *can be used as* a weapon, IF you are disabled. It was snuck in as part of one of those "Crime" Bills.

Think logically about this. Anything and everything can be used as a weapon. The human body accounts for 48 'weapons', including the entire body. I counted up the parts usable as weapons.





Since I am disabled, merely existing is a crime. Shows you exactly how much the so-called Constitution is worth. (less than generic t-paper).

Novus Ordo Seclorum (New World Order)
on back of US Great Seal (motto and symbol of the Illuminati)

"The few and the secret shall rule the many and the known." The Book of The Law (Liber al vel Legis) Aleister Crowley.

Anyways, I have telescoping nunchaku in belt holster. Very nice and perfect for wilderness backpacking. I have other weapons, but no projectile weapons of any type.

hey, here is a nice use for spent batteries: sling ammo (not slingshot).


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## BuddTX (Oct 1, 2002)

Taking a 4 hour class is ok with me.

I am in strong favor of legal gun ownership of citizens, but I do not have a gun. 

Something like a baton would make a nice defensive weapon in the house as well.

Don't even know if they make something like this, but the home defense gun that I would want, would be the most intimidating, meanest looking (Rambo, special op's, whatever), loudest cocking, 410 shotgun there is (410 is a small guage shotgun). (Maybe even smaller guage than 410 if one is made).

Why? The site and sound of a "mean" shotgun says that I am serious, yet if I had to shoot it, it's low kickback would be easy to controll, not travel throught multiple walls and possibly other houses, and not as likely to cause me "second thoughts" when shooting it, for self defense in my home.

If there are "low powered, mean looking" shotguns, please let me know!

OH, and yes, of course it needs to have a flashlight mount!


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## SPECIALIST (Oct 1, 2002)

I dont really like the idea of oc, pepper, mace, whatever, it has been shown not to work effectively on druged or extremely crazed people.
Althought i have heard very good things about fox labs spray. I guess i'm going to have to buy some and have some friends test it on me.
I like the ASP because if necessary you can crank up the leathality of the device by cracking someone in the head with the nice little metal knob at the end of it. If you cant carry an asp i would recommend maybe a 2AA maglite or a 9p surefire used as a imporvised Yawara or kubotan. I carry a 2aa maglite daily and will soon switch to a 9P maglite as soon as the get back into production.


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## Jim Brown (Oct 20, 2002)

What's funny about all the legal mumbo jumbo and penalties and all that is the person that is going to commit a crime with these things doesn't care if they are legal or illegal!!! Thye are committing a crime anyway so what do they care? It's only the people that would use them for protection that the law means anything too. And for them it's a barrier to safety. That's why the gun laws seem to work in reverse...Only the law abiding are affected by them. Here in California a criminal can buy a gun instantly on many San Francisco streetcorners so what do they care about 10 day waiting periods or if they have a trigger lock on their rifle? It's all pretty silly and mostly designed to make people think they are safer with all the restrictions.
Jim


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## dano (Oct 21, 2002)

Well...let me chime in for a minute...

I can care less if a honest, law abiding citizen wants to carry anything for personal self defense. Unless it's used, I may possibly never know what joe-schmoe is carryiing.

Crooks have a funny way of making themselves known...Usually by breaking the law...D'oh!

I've taken only two collapsable batons from people, both were involved in other "activities" and both were charged accordingly...

I "found" 4 guns last year:3 on people, one in a car. 3 out of the 4 went to Federal court, one was remanded back to the State penal system,a s he was a Parolee-at-large..

Last year, lots of knives, mostly from homeless types who brandished. I had two cases in which pepper spray was used: One case was clearly self defense, but the Supervisor on the scene gave me grief for not arresting the victim who sprayed (it's not a crime to defend yourself, and my report reflected that). The other incident was clearly an assault, and the peron was charged accordingly.

Justa few weeks ago, I was picking up a shoplifter from one of the chain stores, and noticed a clip sticking out of a customer's pocket. I recognized the knife as a Benchmade AFO, and auto, which is illegal in California. If I wasn't dealing with the speed-freak guy who boosted a pack of AA batteries, I would have spoken with the knife-carrying citizen, of course, but then again, I have more important things to do...Discretion is a wonderful tool...

The moral of the story: Of all the incidents I pointed-out, only one was with an honest citizen, and he wasn't arrested. That's not to say that in a self defense situation the victim may be on the end of legal action, it's just unlikely, unless a firearm or shooting, etc, something with deadly force or serious injury will ALWAYS bring an in-depth and thorough investigation.

--dan


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## Wits' End (Oct 21, 2002)

> Originally posted by dano:
> *Crooks have a funny way of making themselves known...Usually by breaking the law...D'oh!
> --dan*


<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Words of wisdom indeed. 
I have often thought a quarterstaff would be an excellent weapon in the (not too thick) woods. An expandable baton would be much more portable.
How easily do they deploy? What is the maximum diameter of the shaft?


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## [email protected] (Oct 21, 2002)

Maybe a dumb question... Are expandable batons the same thing as the ones that concist of a handle and a couple of interlocking springs with a weight on the end?

Please enlighten



me


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## Charles Bradshaw (Oct 21, 2002)

Expandable = telescoping, at least to some degree. Usually 3 telescoping sections of tubular steel, though the end section may be solid.

Unlike the old fashioned baton and the PR-24 (side handle baton or TONFA), these are pretty much useless for thrusting attacks.


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## Wingerr (Oct 21, 2002)

The ones you're referring to, with the sections of spring steel and the weighted tip, are one version of the expandable baton; some others have solid sections. With the spring ones, they can be likened to swinging a sock with quarters at the end, since striking with just the spring portion isn't going to do much. The tip, however, develops a mean impact, storing up some of the momentum of the swing.



> Originally posted by Bart.:
> *Maybe a dumb question... Are expandable batons the same thing as the ones that concist of a handle and a couple of interlocking springs with a weight on the end?
> 
> Please enlighten
> ...


<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">


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## PhilAlex (Oct 21, 2002)

Actually, a pal of mine who hikes a lot thru the woods LOVES his Sjambok.

Best snake killer in the world. Cheap. Impossible to carry concealed. 

Deadly with minimum practise.

$10 from Cold Steel, or more from "Those" kinds of suppliers, if you know what I mean.


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## Quickbeam (Oct 21, 2002)

> Unlike the old fashioned baton and the PR-24 (side handle baton or TONFA), these are pretty much useless for thrusting attacks. [in reference to expandable batons]


<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Wanna bet? Snap open an ASP with some force and short of pounding it on concrete or asphalt you won't get it to close, period. When those flanges friction-lock together it's like a solid piece of rebar.


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## webley445 (Oct 21, 2002)

I've got a cheapie knock off of an Asp and it could put a welt or two on you. I would say that the pro models are more durable and would last longer than the cheap ones. i find that most of the time civilians will break their weapons by "playing" with it. Constant opening and closing, letting friends try it, etc. 

Here in Fl with our CCW permits we can carrythem or other items. The card is marked" Concealed Firearm or Weapon". The problem I see liability wise is a standard of use for the baton could be held against you. Ideally you would be expected to go after neutral targets when using it against someone. Areas that are intended for pain compliance, then you would move to more sensitive areas if that didn't work. A blow to the head is a last resort and can be lethal. Many cases of death from blunt truama (i.e. large Mag-lite). All this will be gone over in your class. And think about it too, your certification will show that legally you know all the do's and don'ts, so it may not look too good for you if you don't abide by the doctrines taught. I could see one being taken by surprise or reacting instinctively and maybe using tactics that could be considered "inappropriate" for the situation. Of course this could happen with any defensive item too. I find that when taking courses you will be disappointed at what you hear about the legality of using the item you are certifying for or self defence in general.

BudTX,
Rather than I .410, I'd say a 12g. pump with birdshot would do one better. but that's just me. A Russian company ,I think Saiga, makes a semi auto 5 shot chambered in 12 & 20 guages...oh and one in .410. This is the same place that makes AK's so take a guess as to what weapon these shotguns resemble?


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## JackBlades (Oct 22, 2002)

> Originally posted by PhilAlex:
> *Actually, a pal of mine who hikes a lot thru the woods LOVES his Sjambok.
> Impossible to carry concealed.
> $10 from Cold Steel, or more from "Those" kinds of suppliers, if you know what I mean.*


<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">They can be carried concealed if you wear a coat, up the left sleeve, across the shoulders, and down the right sleeve. Handle on appropriate side for left/rt handed user. The shorter ones can also be strung through the belt loops of jeans.

Mean weapons.


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## Wingerr (Oct 22, 2002)

Sjambok 

Hmm... So does this mean you could carry these formidable weapons around, but still use an excuse like, "I'm into S&M!" if you get stopped?


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## qkrthnu (Dec 31, 2002)

SPECIALIST,


> I guess i'm going to have to buy some and have some friends test it on me.


<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If you test the Fox yourself be sure to let us know how it goes!

I've read posts from other guys that have tested OC on them selves in the past and said it wasn't too bad, then they tried Fox and said they'd never do it again


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## tkl (Dec 31, 2002)

dano, we need more officers like you on the streets!



i got your six anytime.

buddtx, last i looked they are illegal unless you are the po po. i have a chl too, doesn't make sense does it?





everybody, FOX is nasty! if you're going to carry oc make it FOX. BATONS are not fullproof either. i saw video of a guy gettting whacked multiple times by TWO state troopers with expandable batons and he kept fighting. started to win at one point. no drugs, just stupidity. 

nothing beats two .45 to the chest.


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## **DONOTDELETE** (Dec 31, 2002)

I know an old timer that has personally seen a human being "accept," ...ahem, *seven * .45 CERs in the thoracic cavity and kept running for at least 100 yards.


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## SurefireM6 (Dec 31, 2002)

Air Taser. More effective non lethal option. It's carried by many of my friends, on and off duty. Legal to carry concealed in most states, even CA. Ideal for Civi type. It's much better than a baton. 

A baton is, believe it or not, skill based. If you are not extensively trained on it professionally (no not just swinging it around on a body bag at home), it will most likely not be effective. You'll bang away at a subject under the influence of a controlled substance and he won't even feel it. What if he rushes you and closes the gap so you can't strike. Skill comes into play for joint manipulation with a baton. There is just not enough bang to knock down a guy who doesn't feel pain. Now throw in fear and adrenaline. Air Taser, just point and shoot.






I have personal experience with these and they DO work. For more info and even a 34mb video demonstration (took about 1 minute on 768k dsl) Click Here 

I'm not selling these things, but for civilians, this is much better than batons. And it will keep you out of jail for the night in some states





STUNNING DEVICES Includes: STUN GUN, STUN BATON, AIR TASER, MYOTRON

*STATE RESTRICTION:* HAWAII, MASSACHUSETTS, MICHIGAN, NEW JERSEY, NEW YORK, RHODE ISLAND, WISCONSIN

*CITY RESTRICTION:* ANNAPOLIS, BALTIMORE, BALTIMORE COUNTY-MD; CHICAGO-IL; DENSION-IA (CRAWFORD COUNTY); DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA-DC; PHILADELPHIA-PA


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## tkl (Jan 1, 2003)

> Originally posted by .:
> *I know an old timer that has personally seen a human being "accept," ...ahem, seven  .45 CERs in the thoracic cavity and kept running for at least 100 yards.
> 
> 
> ...


<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">excellent point, nothing is full proof. what i should have said is a .45 is a bigger deterent than a baton and i don't need to let the bad guy that close to me.


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## **DONOTDELETE** (Jan 1, 2003)

Excellent point about proximity. On occasion, I am asked about self defense methods.





The *VERY FIRST* method that I wholy recommend is real estate. Put plenty of it between yourself and the miscreant population AS A START.


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## tkl (Jan 1, 2003)

mr., the reason i moved last year! i'm trying to tell my friend to move out the ghetto he's in. he says it's what he can afford, then has another kid! guess he wasn't poor enough to start with.





but that's a whole other story. most people find a way to afford what they *want* .


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## **DONOTDELETE** (Jan 1, 2003)

That is true about wants. Unfortunately, few will ever realize needs first. That newborn will inherit those same values. Shameful.

Back on topic. 

Yes, I have used ASP expandable batons since they were made available. This product has added new dimension to escrima and arnis. I have incorporated the collapseable baton's characteristics into those methods learned years ago using the fixed length batons and have taught them those techniques to hundreds of students both in the private and public sectors.

One advise that I will readily give regarding these devices: get some training if you must use them. I won't go into the legal aspect.

Regards,
KT


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## Albany Tom (Jan 2, 2003)

In NY state: no taser, no stun gun, no batons, no automatic knives. Ok is OC spray, and handguns with a license. NYC has additional restrictions, although the state restrictions apply too.


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## PWork (Jan 10, 2003)

Batons aren't legal in PA. 
Does ASP still make the small key ring model? I haven't seen them anywhere for quite a while now.

Paul


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## pjenkins00 (Jan 16, 2003)

I think they still do. I know for sure that monodock (sp) makes one.

- Pete


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## ledfanfromjuno (Jan 16, 2003)

If you like expandable batons, you may also like these self defense sticks. Check them out. I believe they may be made by the same mad dog who makes the famous knives for the military.
http://www.mdenterprise.com/fighting.htm






A word of advice. In today's tree hugging, environmentalist waco, gun hating, wierd atmosphere that prevails in America's government and news media, do yourself a favor and wake up and smell the coffee burning. Don't attend classes or whatever just because the law says you have to in order to get this or that. Just get something that you don't need classes for. By attending classes you give yourself away and make yourself a potential candidate for confiscation in the future, should your state laws change.


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## Wits' End (Jan 16, 2003)

> Originally posted by ledfanfromjuno:
> *A word of advice. *


<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">By posting on the Internet also


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## Monsters_Inc (Jan 17, 2003)

What is the most liberal state in the US? I mean one that has the fewest laws restricting what people can and can't obtain by legal means.


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## Anarchocap (Jan 17, 2003)

Arizona is a fairly liberal weapon state. I can't speak for others really except maybe Vermont, where you don't need a permit to CCW a gun, and Nevada, which is about the same as Arizona.

We are a class III state, which means you can own a fully automatic weapon with Federal Tax Stamp ($200 fee). Open Carry is legal without a permit. There is no permit needed to own a weapon. Concealed Carry (of any weapon!) is allowed with a "shall-issue" permit (non-felons with a 16 hour class can't be denied), but there is also debate about the State Constitution that allows for CCW without a permit. As in, you can carry a holstered, loaded weapon in your car, backpack, or case without a permit. Right now, there is a case going to court via a Lawyer friend of mine that will test the legality of CCW in a fanny pack without a permit.

We have also been trying to make CCW without a permit legal via the legislature for the past 8 years. It has been a vicitim of the usual politics: committee heads hold it up, Governor veto, etc. Now that we have Janet (Nepoleon) Nepalitano in, another veto will surely be coming.

I know there might be one or two states that are less restrictive than us, maybe Montana or Wyoming, but as far as things go weapons here are mostly restricted by Federal law and there isn't much state stuff to get in the way.

It was a large determining factor in why I moved here.


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## Unicorn (Jan 30, 2003)

I prefer the batons made by Monadnock instead of ASP. My favorite is the Autolock with Power Safety Tip (uses a ball bearing type lock), followed by the Detective/Offiver Series (friction lock like the ASP) again with the Power Safety Tip. The PST is a 2 inch long, by just under 1 inch diameter rubber coated steel tip that is in place of the small steel tip found on the regular batons. It increases the weight at the tip and therefore the force of your strike. I also like the SX-24, a 1.25" hollow aluminum handle with a 1" polycarbonate shaft, also available with asolid aluminum shaft.
http://www.policebatons.com/


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## SG_Wolf_222 (Mar 1, 2007)

IDK what it is with me and weapons like that...but id never use them to hurt some one with one unless i was forced to in a means of self defence even then thats a hard choise for me, but ive never had a awesome weapon like that only in my mind =P. After i whatched some movies Resident Evil 2 and some cop shows =P bt more when i whatched Silent Hill and i didnt know what exactly what it was then i looked at it and it became my weapon of choise...in my mind =P...im only 16 but i like to train with weapons even if there make shift ones, but im thinking about getting one.but frst things first i need to know if there even legal in TN so could some one help me out.


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## jds009 (Mar 1, 2007)

wow...old thread, from 02-03...wow...cool!


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