# The Shotgun Thread



## TigerhawkT3 (Jun 10, 2008)

Hey all, I'm sort of considering a new shotgun. I'm looking for semi-auto, 12ga, 3.5" Magnum, and reliable cycling with everything from very light field loads to 3.5" slugs. Available magazine extensions would be nice, but I'd like some opinions on those as well. I'd also prefer to spend less rather than more.

So, the Remington SPR453 is looking good. I couldn't find mag extensions for it online, but it has 4+1 (with 3.5") or 5+1 (2.75" or 3") capacity, has a tunable gas piston (to adjust for light or heavy loads), isn't too expensive, and is of the same series as my SPR100, which I like.


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## swampgator (Jun 10, 2008)

*Re: Shotgun shopping*

Would a mag extender from an 870 or 1100 work with this?


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## NA8 (Jun 10, 2008)

*Re: Shotgun shopping*

Last time I was at a shotgun match the Barettas and the Benellis were popular. Super fast and held 8 or 9 rounds. Evil stuff :devil:


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## scott.cr (Jun 11, 2008)

*Re: Shotgun shopping*

The SPR453 is a crude shotgun, but then again, it's also about the least expensive semi you can get ($400 even here in California).

Having said that, I've also seen Remington 11-87s for about $450, this is much more shotgun for the money in my opinion, plus there are plenty of aftermarket parts for it.

For roughly the same as an 11-87 you could get an 1100, which has more "tacticool" accessories available for it, but I don't think any of the 1100 models shoot 3.5" shells.

I recently fired a Winchester Super X2 (tacticool model) and I reeeeeeally liked it, kinda expensive though ($900+).


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## J.McDonald Knives (Jun 11, 2008)

*Re: Shotgun shopping*

I say get a Remington 1187 or 1100. Not that expensive, well made, and you can find mods for it. www.tjgeneralstore.com has mag extensions for it as well as other mods for it.

[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Arial, Helvetica]Tac Star Magazine Extension, Blue,  Remington 1100/11-87 10 shot, barrel 26" or longer. Barrel to magazine clamp included.[/FONT] [FONT=Trebuchet MS, Arial, Helvetica]46.99[/FONT]


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## adamlau (Jun 11, 2008)

*Re: Shotgun shopping*

You know you want an M4...







Benelli Skeletonized Stock
MEPROLIGHT Tritium Sight Set
Briley Flush Black Oxide IC Choke
Mesa Tactical SureShell 6-Shot Carrier
SOCOMguy Full Length Magazine Tube
Benelli Full Length Magazine Spring
Callahan Red Aluminum Follower


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## TigerhawkT3 (Jun 11, 2008)

*Re: Shotgun shopping*

Definitely cool sheez. Adam, is that a Realtree M6? oo:

It looks like $450-range 11-87s aren't chambered for 3.5" Mag. The ones that are cost more like $6-700, it looks like (based on GunBroker).

The M4 is awesome, but no 3.5"... 

So, Scott, what exactly do you mean by "crude"? Do you mean the functional machining, parts, or design aren't up to par, or is it just bare-bones? I'm okay with crude as in simple or plain, but definitely not okay with crude as in jams, breaks, or other malfunctions.


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## swampgator (Jun 11, 2008)

*Re: Shotgun shopping*

The M6 looks like it has a flower or something over it.


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## unnerv (Jun 11, 2008)

*Re: Shotgun shopping*



adamlau said:


> You know you want an M4...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


:devil: I am so drooling right now...
I wan't one bad, but the price tag on that beauty would sink me.


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## TigerhawkT3 (Jun 11, 2008)

*Re: Shotgun shopping*



swampgator said:


> The M6 looks like it has a flower or something over it.


 That'll teach me not to look closelier.


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## NA8 (Jun 11, 2008)

*Re: Shotgun shopping*



adamlau said:


> You know you want an M4...



Oh, NICE shotgun. :twothumbs

I almost bought the basic M4 once but wimped out due to the weight (and the price). What I'd really like is one of the cut down pumps the police get to use.

Edit: My mistake, I almost bought the M3 with the combo auto/pump action. I liked the idea, but didn't like the weight.


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## V8TOYTRUCK (Jun 12, 2008)

*Re: Shotgun shopping*

Adam, you should come out to Burro this on the 21st, a few guys on Calguns is getting a private range there. Shoot + BBQ

I thought collapsable stocks were not legal on a semi?

Benelli M4 is my fav shotgun


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## adamlau (Jun 12, 2008)

*Re: Shotgun shopping*



NA8 said:


> What I'd really like is one of the cut down pumps the police get to use.


Briley can cut and crown (including relocating the front sight post/bead) any barrel to your desired length. You will need to register the shotgun as an SBS if you do. 



V8TOYTRUCK said:


> Adam, you should come out to Burro this on the 21st...


Shooting and BBQ sounds like a day of fun, but I most likely have to work past 5PM PDT when Burro closes. I am about thirty, forty minutes away, I'll check the Calguns forum for more information. We always spring for a private range when we head up there :thumbsup: .



> I thought collapsable stocks were not legal on a semi?


If paired with a pistol grip stock in CA. This M4 currently resides in LV  .


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## FILIPPO (Jun 12, 2008)

*Re: Shotgun shopping*

if you want a "defender" benelli is the best IMO...look for M4 and M3 or don't know if you can get a Breda SPAS 12 :devil:

on the other hand if you are looking for a "normal" shotgun Super-Magnum (3,5") I'd suggest BERETTA XTREMA 2


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## gallonoffuel (Jun 12, 2008)

*Re: Shotgun shopping*

I own a few shotguns, and shoot them on a weekly basis. They include a Benelli M1S90, Winchester 1300 Defender, Beretta 3901, and Mossberg 930. I can offer some insight I think.

I personally would not get a Remington auto. The deal with the o-rings is just a non-starter for me. If you're looking for entry level, and you're dead set on 3.5" (I don't see a need for them, but to each his own), get the Mossberg 935. It has the simplicity of a Beretta style gas system, is cheaper than the Remington, and they come in all sorts of configurations. Mossberg USA customer service is absolutely fantastic also. You can find these just about anywhere too.


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## gallonoffuel (Jun 12, 2008)

*Re: Shotgun shopping*

To hit on the 3.5" requirement again, I thought I'd mention that even my 18.5" Mossberg 930 and 22" Benelli M1S90 won't cycle some of my 7/8oz reloads. They will cycle every factory field load I've tried in them, and every target load, but my point is that unless you're hunting and the only shell you can get your hunting load in is 3.5", there aren't many guns that will span that range of pressures, especially in short barrels. Putting the 28" field barrel on my Mossberg and it'll cycle damn near anything, even 7/8oz undercharged with 17gr of Clays instead of 18.5. 

Why do you want 3.5" again?


EDIT: Join us over at shotgunworld.com and you'll get more information than you ever wanted to know.


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## TOOCOOL (Jun 12, 2008)

*Re: Shotgun shopping*

How about a nice Purdy I have always liked them


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## scott.cr (Jun 12, 2008)

*Re: Shotgun shopping*



TigerhawkT3 said:


> So, Scott, what exactly do you mean by "crude"? Do you mean the functional machining, parts, or design aren't up to par, or is it just bare-bones?





TigerhawkT3 said:


> So, Scott, what exactly do you mean by "crude"? Do you mean the functional machining, parts, or design aren't up to par, or is it just bare-bones?



Partially quality of the parts in terms of machining, and partially the ergonomics of the gun. With the way the parts fit, I felt there were too many exposed sharp edges, such as where the stock meets the receiver. There's a "step" where the receiver is wider than the stock, and when you shoot the gun your face is only about an inch from that area. The trigger also felt rough/sharp to the touch, but that could be smoothed if you wanted.

The front sight is difficult to see. I don't know if it has a standard U.S. thread that will accept aftermarket sights.

The small parts are roughly machined and look like they were hand-fitted at the factory rather than just "bolted together" as you'd expect if the parts were close-tolerance. So, getting replacements will probably be difficult, because in my experience, companies that build hand-tuned guns just don't provide parts. If an extractor breaks, the gun might be permanently out of commission! Though honestly I cannot tell you this for certain, it is just a hunch. Remington might have a service department for the Spartan brand, but somehow I doubt it.

Oddly enough, this morning I was talking with my coworker about the price of handgun and rifle ammunition, which is rising with the price of copper. Shotgun ammo seems fairly resistant to the price swings of commodities, so it's still relatively cheap to blow clay disks apart for an entire weekend. So no matter what it is, GO GET ANOTHER SHOTGUN!!! ;-)


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## gallonoffuel (Jun 12, 2008)

*Re: Shotgun shopping*

The SPR453 and other shotguns under the Spartan name are imported by Remington from a Russian manufacturer called Bakail. They have a faithful following, but I have not been impressed their products. I have seen 3 critical failures in their over/unders. The semi-autos might be of better design, but I would not put much stock in it.

Tru-glo makes a front bead kit with 5 different sight holders that will surely contain one with the right threads.

Shotgun ammo prices fluctuate less quickly than other ammunition because of the way lead shot contracts work. They typically establish a price from the manufacturers for a given amount of time, sometimes years. If lead goes up or down, the price may be fixed for the ammo manufacturer. However, the prices do change. 2 years ago, a case of Remington Gun Clubs went for about $38. Now, the same case is about $50.

Loose shot and other reloading components tend to fluctuate more quickly. 2 years ago, i was buying #8 chilled shot for $84/100lbs. 6 months ago, it jumped to $140/100. I don't know where it is now, I've been shooting less expensive stuff recently.


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## TigerhawkT3 (Jun 12, 2008)

*Re: Shotgun shopping*



FILIPPO said:


> if you want a "defender" benelli is the best IMO...look for M4 and M3 or don't know if you can get a Breda SPAS 12 :devil:
> 
> on the other hand if you are looking for a "normal" shotgun Super-Magnum (3,5") I'd suggest BERETTA XTREMA 2


You lucky *******s with your assault weapons!  I live in CA, where the SPAS12 is specifically banned.  Still, I guess not being able to buy one of the coolest shotguns ever has a silver lining. If I had one, then every time I said something like, "I'm going out shooting with my SPAS12," my dog Spas would think I was talking to him. 

I want 3.5" because it's powerful, it makes for a (slightly) wider range of available ammo, and because my SPR100 only chambers up to 3".  I'd prefer getting the longest available barrel for the most power/accuracy.

I discovered shotgunworld.com yesterday, and I still have a lot of reading to do. The Baikal MP153/Remington SPR453 seem to have quite a following there.

It looks like a magazine extension for the SPR453 is illegal or something, so I guess that's out. However, does anyone know how easy it is to find and fit a pistol grip stock to one of these?


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## CLHC (Jun 12, 2008)

*Re: Shotgun shopping*



adamlau said:


> You know you want an M4...
> Benelli Skeletonized Stock
> MEPROLIGHT Tritium Sight Set
> Briley Flush Black Oxide IC Choke
> ...


Nice!


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## TigerhawkT3 (Jun 13, 2008)

*Re: Shotgun shopping*

After some reading about the 453 over at SGW, I think I'll go with it. Now I just need to find a good price and I'm set. 

I think I'll rename this thread to "The Shotgun Thread."


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## cslinger (Jun 13, 2008)

Just a note, per the BATFE shotguns do fall under 922r and are made into un-importable non sporting weapons if they are changed from the way they were imported without the requisite number of U.S. made parts.

So technically speaking a Benelli M4 manufactured outside of the U.S. is illegal with the extended tube and collapseable stock per federal law(without the requisite U.S. parts). There are letters from the BATFE tech branch that also include pump guns in 922r regs. as well. 

All that being said the laws are clear as mud and you cannot get two people at the BATFE to agree on anything. That and I cannot imagine anybody ever being charged with ONLY a 922r violation. 

My two cents.


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## NA8 (Jun 13, 2008)

cslinger said:


> So technically speaking a Benelli M4 manufactured outside of the U.S. is illegal with the extended tube and collapseable stock per federal law(without the requisite U.S. parts).



Must be why he keeps it in LV (Las Vegas ?). 

Was Las Vegas ever really under the jurisdiction of the criminal justice system ?


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## gallonoffuel (Jun 13, 2008)

cslinger said:


> Just a note, per the BATFE shotguns do fall under 922r and are made into un-importable non sporting weapons if they are changed from the way they were imported without the requisite number of U.S. made parts.




Well, yeah, for the most part. 922R applies to MOST imported firearms, unless the manufacturer holds a US manufacturing FFL. If the gun (like a Benelli M4) is imported under the US subsidiary company (Benelli USA), they are exempt from 922R and you can add whatever tacticool things you want. That why you see people going crazy over 922R compliance for Saigas and SKS's, but not for most shotguns that are imported because nearly all popular shotgun manufacturers have a manufacturing license here (Beretta USA, Benelli USA, FN USA, etc). 

Your best bet is always to call the local ATF office and ask THEM, and get it in writing.


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## Hitthespot (Jun 13, 2008)

I have had extremely good luck with my Browning Gold Autos. They come in 3.0" but I'm not sure about 3.5"

Actually it has been so long since I purchased mine I don't even know if Browning still manufactures them. I know the Auto 5 has been out of production for some time. My dad owns two. A 12 guage and a original Sweet 16 made in Belgium.

Short of that I would go with Beretta's.

Bill


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## TigerhawkT3 (Jun 16, 2008)

$600 w/ tax and fees, 28" bbl., black synthetic. Bought from small local gunshop.

And now, the wait!


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## CLHC (Jun 16, 2008)

Fifteen day wait right? I remember that. . .It's a "killer" waiting.

Looking forward to your POV on said shotgun with pix hopefully.

Enjoy!


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## adamlau (Jun 16, 2008)

cslinger said:


> So technically speaking a Benelli M4 manufactured outside of the U.S. is illegal with the extended tube...(without the requisite U.S. parts).


The full length tube was manufactured stateside. No conflict with 922r.



cslinger said:


> So technically speaking a Benelli M4 manufactured outside of the U.S. is illegal with...[a collapsible] stock...





gallonoffuel said:


> If the gun (like a Benelli M4 [and its collapsible stock]) is imported under the US subsidiary company (Benelli USA), they are exempt from 922R...


Correct. Again, no conflict with 922r.



CLHC said:


> Fifteen day wait right?


Ten days in CA. Good buy, TigerhawkT3  .


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## cslinger (Jun 16, 2008)

All I would suggest is that you get a letter from the BATFE technology branch telling you in black and white that you are legal because I have seen several that do indeed say that you are building an illegal firearm (when specifically talking about Benelli USA firearms) but once again I have seen letters from the BATFE asking the same question with two different answers.

I am not trolling, just don't want to see anybody get made an example of should some over zealous LEO or DA get a hankering to make a name for them selves.

Take care be safe and wicked cool shottys all.

Chris


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## SilentK (Jun 16, 2008)

go for the remington 11-87 XCS. the one in the first post in poorly made and is not good for people who need a gun that can go through what ever you can throw at it


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## TigerhawkT3 (Jun 16, 2008)

SilentK said:


> go for the remington 11-87 XCS. the one in the first post in poorly made and is not good for people who need a gun that can go through what ever you can throw at it


I was considering the 11-87 XCS, but I already bought the significantly cheaper 453. I'll inspect it once it arrives.

Is it okay to combine ammo types (2-3/4" #8, 3" 00, 3.5" 1-3/8oz, etc.) in a mag tube, or is it like batteries?


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## adamlau (Jun 17, 2008)

Understood, cslinger :thumbsup: . It is fine to mix and match shells of different loads and lengths. I always mix and match when testing out ammo for the first time. This allows for repeatable results from which determinations can be made. However, you may want to obtain a letter from Remington indicating in black and white that it is acceptable to mix ammutition types before proceeding  .


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## cslinger (Jun 17, 2008)

> However, you may want to obtain a letter from Remington indicating in black and white that it is acceptable to mix ammutition types before proceeding



Quick, funny, decent timing......I give it an 8.


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## TigerhawkT3 (Jun 26, 2008)

Picked it up today (Wednesday). It's so cool to have my very own Evil Black Ri-... I mean... Shotgun. 

Loading shells is a bit rough sometimes. I'd prefer if I could just jam 'em in there and never have to jiggle it past rough spots. However, I'm moderately confident that that'll improve once it's broken in. We put 75 shells through it (4 and 6 bird, 1.25oz) out of the recommended 100, and I'll do the last 25 next time I take it out.

It took a lot of self-control to keep from just rapid-firing a whole mag at a time.  It feels fantastic. 

I also discovered the joys of unburned powder in the chamber. We got a tiny fire in the chamber area for almost a second or two after the last round of a mag, with a hot gun. Of course, I immediately stopped and asked the range master if that's normal, and was assured that it was. :sweat: I'm glad it wasn't a bad sign, because it was pretty impressive. 

Now I wait for a pistol grip stock and magazine extension for this model.


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## CLHC (Jun 29, 2008)

Any pix of your newly acquired boom stick?


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## TigerhawkT3 (Jun 30, 2008)

Sadly, no pics yet. My guns are all stored at my friend's house, so it's a bit of a bother to do anything with them. I'll try to remember to bring my camera next time I go over there.

I almost used it in a hunting trip today, but the outdoors were closed for repairs. :duh2: There's a bit of a fire hazard thing around these parts. My buddy and I drove for a couple hours, saw it was closed, took a short nap, then turned around and went home. 

For some reason, the 453 is only holding four shells in the magazine instead of the five specified in the manual, and I don't know why. I'll probably just ask the gun shop where I bought it what the deal is.

Oh, and I just realized earlier today that three of the four firearms I own were made in Russia. Fascinating.


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## CLHC (Jun 30, 2008)

Are you sure the 453 isn't a 4+1? Meaning four (4) in the tube plus (+) one (1) in the chamber?


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## TigerhawkT3 (Jun 30, 2008)

After looking closely at page 10 of the manual, I think the issue is the "plastic spring cap." When you take off the metal cap (a part you can plainly see when the gun is fully assembled) from the end of the magazine, there's another little plastic thing that keeps the spring from popping out. If I'm reading it right, the spring can be held by the metal cap instead of the little plastic cap, although if you did that, the spring would only be held by the metal cap and you'd have to hold it with a pin when opening it up.

Also, on page 13, it says you can insert five 2.75" or 3" shells, or four 3.5" shells. It doesn't mention anything about putting one of those in the chamber.

So, I think that preinstalled "plastic spring cap" is not a necessary part and is a mere convenience that holds the spring in there for you while you're disassembling, although it changes the gun from a 5+1 to a 4+1. Correct me if I'm wrong, please! 

Also, it looks from this thread that adding a new stock or mag extension would violate 922(r), as the SPR453 is a rebranded import of the Baikal MP153, so that's right out. I guess I'll have to get an 11-87 or something... when I have money again.


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## TigerhawkT3 (Jul 17, 2008)

What is the overall length of a Remington 870 Express with an 18.5" barrel, pistol grip, and no stock?


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## TigerhawkT3 (Oct 5, 2008)

As soon as I finished breaking it in with #4 bird, I switched to lower-power shells, around #7 or #8. These shells only fully cycled the action about one in three times. The range employee who tried it after I notified them of the jam said that it probably needed to be oiled. I think it was also due to my (and the employee's) shooting style of rocking backwards, possibly robbing the action of some energy. I also didn't adjust the gas system, since that requires partial disassembly. I think that if I oil it and try to shove my shoulder forward a little, it should cycle low-power rounds more reliably.

As requested, here's a pic of the boomstick from a frame from the video I shot when I finished breaking it in a couple weeks ago.


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## Patriot (Oct 5, 2008)

TigerhawkT3 said:


> As soon as I finished breaking it in with #4 bird, I switched to lower-power shells, around #7 or #8. These shells only fully cycled the action about one in three times. The range employee who tried it after I notified them of the jam said that it probably needed to be oiled. I think it was also due to my (and the employee's) shooting style of rocking backwards, possibly robbing the action of some energy. I also didn't adjust the gas system, since that requires partial disassembly. I think that if I oil it and try to shove my shoulder forward a little, it should cycle low-power rounds more reliably.





Hi Tigerhawk  Going to a smaller shot size doesn't always necessarily mean going to a "lower power." All that really effects the energy is the powder charge, usually indicated in drams on the box and the shot payload. 1 ounce of #4 will operate the action exactly the same as 1 ounce of #9 provided the the charge is the same.

Also, there is no reason that the gun shouldn't function perfectly with a dove & quail field load or even 1 oz target loads for that matter. It's new and probably needs a little more breaking in with plenty of oil. That particular gas system is fairly sensitive to dirt and gummy powder build up at the gas seals and should be cleaned well every 1000 rounds or so. It's not the most outright reliable design but when they're running great no other semi-auto shotgun shoots as smoothly. They're still a popular in competition, including 3 gun matches.

Nice gun!


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## NA8 (Oct 6, 2008)

TigerhawkT3 said:


> What is the overall length of a Remington 870 Express with an 18.5" barrel, pistol grip, and no stock?



Don't know about the Rem870, but I recall the Mossberg with an 18" barrel and pistol grip are illegal in Calif while the 20" barrel with the pistol grip is legal.


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## TigerhawkT3 (Oct 6, 2008)

Patriot36,

Sorry I was unclear - I was using higher-powered loads that just happened to be slightly larger shot. I think it was 1.25oz versus 1.125oz loads, or something like that. The lower-powered ones had about a quarter inch of brass, and the higher-powered ones about half an inch. So, you think it probably needs to be broken in some more? I broke it in with the bare minimum of 100 1.25oz loads recommended in the manual. A few more boxes, perhaps?

NA8,

So, a 20" barrel is the limit? I think I could stand the two extra inches.


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## NA8 (Oct 7, 2008)

TigerhawkT3 said:


> Patriot36,
> NA8,
> 
> So, a 20" barrel is the limit? I think I could stand the two extra inches.



It's actually the overall length of the shotgun has to be "so long" one of those "not shorter than" things. Forget what the metric is. With the Mossberg's you gain two extra rounds with the longer mag tube. Would recommend the 590 over the 500. Better magazine tube design.


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## TigerhawkT3 (Oct 7, 2008)

NA8 said:


> It's actually the overall length of the shotgun has to be "so long" one of those "not shorter than" things. Forget what the metric is. With the Mossberg's you gain two extra rounds with the longer mag tube. Would recommend the 590 over the 500. Better magazine tube design.


It's 18" barrel and 26" overall. Since the length of a receiver+grip is pretty much fixed, the variable is usually the barrel length. I just wasn't sure whether an 18" barrel usually made for a 26" overall length (with no stock).


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## sunspot (Oct 8, 2008)

Did someone mention Mossberg 590?


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## BobAsh (Oct 9, 2008)

8" Saiga-12 FTW.


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## TigerhawkT3 (Mar 29, 2015)

Update time!



Patriot said:


> That particular gas system is fairly sensitive to dirt and gummy powder build up at the gas seals and should be cleaned well every 1000 rounds or so.



I can now confirm this. My SPR453 stopped cycling, and I wasn't sure why. I regularly cleaned the bore, the gas ports, and the gas piston assembly of all visible gunk, so I took it to the local gun shop. They scrubbed at it a bit and it didn't help, so I had their gunsmith take a look at it (actually the same guy who'd looked at it initially, but I guess you get a different level of service for $150). Apparently, you have to completely disassemble the gas piston for cleaning. Unfortunately, the manual just says that "The gas piston assembly is on the magazine tube. (See Picture 43). The gas piston assembly must be cleaned and lightly oiled after each use," with Picture 43 only showing the complete magazine tube and gas piston assembly. There's no explanation of how to actually disassemble the gas piston for proper cleaning, and I haven't been able to Google one up, either. The next time I see it having cycling issues, I'm going to have a nice little adventure and hope that it doesn't end in unexplained "spare parts."


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