# I sold an HID flashlgiht off CPF and Now it don't work.



## Beaver_2 (Sep 21, 2009)

Hey guys, I sold my 35 watt HID flashlight off CPF marketetplace. I didn't even own it for 2 weeks. Charged it up, and worked great. I packed it up, tested it out again, and it still worked. Shipped it insured parcel post from TN to WA. Now when he guy receives it, he says the battery is completely dead(3 LEDs don't even work), and that the charger and Car adapter won't work either. Now I talked to this guy on the phone, and he sounded like a very honest man, so I know he's not lying. 

But my question is, what in the world happened during shipment???
What should I do?
Should I contact USPS about the damage?
I've never really had anything come damaged USPS before, and I insured it too. 
Thanks for your help guys.
-Beaver_2


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## Sgt. LED (Sep 21, 2009)

Yes contact USPS.
Make a claim on the insurance then settle up with the buyer. It might take some time before they make it right and they may need the buyer to send the broken light to them. Like you said he seems honest so he should be fine with doing that if need be.
Communicate your process to the buyer so he knows what's going on. Avoid those Jeers!


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## Beaver_2 (Sep 21, 2009)

I insured the flashlight to $185. How much should I file a claim for? As far as I know, the battery, charger, and AC adapter do not work. But more could be damaged as far as I know. By the way, this flashlgiht is extremely similar to the Orace 35 watt HID


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## LOUSYGREATWALLGM (Sep 21, 2009)

How did you send the light? Was it in an aluminum casing? If so, I really doubt the charger will get damaged before the light.

PS: Can you PM me the buyer's user name? I want to note his name


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## SunFire900 (Sep 21, 2009)

I think it is highly unlikely that the _charger_ was damaged in the mail (unless it was run over by a semi). 

Has the buyer said what happens when he puts the battery on charge? Does the charge light light up? My Oracle 35w battery was DOA and had to be replaced, but it did charge up partially...enough to run the LED's with no problem. It would not run the light, though.

How well was the light packed? Hopefully wrapped well with bubble wrap and boxed tightly and not loose. 

If the LED's won't light after being on charge for a while, then the battery is definitely at fault. They say not to shake these batteries excessively since they are not tightly bound inside the battery case. Something may have come loose, but it doesn't seem too likely either.

I'm just trying to throw some things out there... and by the way, have the buyer join us here at CPF!


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## Patriot (Sep 21, 2009)

Sorry to hear of your trouble. 

It's strange that both the charger and 12V adapter aren't working. The common denominator is the battery itself. 

It's seems that you're in a bind now either way since you may have to buy a new battery or charger, or have him mail it back to you at your expense. You purchased the light from an ebay seller in China, which probably isn't going to add positively to your dilemma. Hopefully the battery and charger are interchangeable with the Oracle but it's going to cost you now in dollars or time regardless.

Hopefully all will work out.


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## Dude Dudeson (Sep 21, 2009)

Beaver_2 said:


> I've never really had anything come damaged USPS before, and I insured it too.


 
Better read the fine print in the insurance - I used to work for a moving company and anything electronic was NOT insurable.

The rational there was it's completely impossible to sit down and test out someone's electronic equipment to make sure it worked BEFORE transport.

I have no idea if USPS is the same, but it might be something to watch out for.


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## Bullzeyebill (Sep 21, 2009)

How about having it sent back to you for evaluation? Pay for the return shipping. Check it out, and if it is too far gone to fix, reimburse the buyer. Sounds like it will be too hard to prove damage during shipping. If you had charged it up prior to shipping the battery should have been ok on delivery, unless somehow the HID turned on, at least the LEDs. 

Bill


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## Rexlion (Sep 21, 2009)

UPS is unlikely to pay if (a) the item wasn't packaged as well as their rules require, and/or (b) there's no visible damage (which makes it seem likely that it's a manufacturer's defect). Don't know much about their electronics policy, but you should research that too... maybe on their website, or maybe call and ask their customer service people some questions?

it could be something simple. I bought a AA light that was modded to take 14500s instead, and by the time it came I forgot and tried a AA in it... it didn't work and I wrote the seller. Fortunately he was patient with me and gently reminded me it was now a 14500 light.


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## Beaver_2 (Sep 21, 2009)

First off its USPS Parcel Post. I filed claim under the category of electronics and now its going to get mailed to their place in St. Louis. I instructed the buyer to ship it directly to them so I wouldn't have to pay double shipping. Each time you ship the thing it cost $15.00 

I shipped it the flashlight in the same padding and box that it was shipped to me from China. Now, it came all the way from there with EMS, and it worked right out of the box. So I shipped it fully charged to, but somehow it broke along the way in the exact same padding that it survived china with. THen again, I guess when you ship from china its air mail, where as when you ship from TN to WA its truck. That's the only reason that I can think of. 
I'll let you guys know what comes out of it. Though I'm betting it'll probably be a few weeks before I see any of my money or flashlight come back.


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## Beaver_2 (Sep 28, 2009)

Well the Post Office accepted my claim on the 25th of September and I got a check today for $175.00 
The only problem is that it doesn't cover the $12 I lost in postage, or the customer's postage. But I'm glad they accepted the claim and promptly sent me a check. I just wonder where all the broken stuff goes to.


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## Norm (Sep 28, 2009)

Beaver_2 said:


> I just wonder where all the broken stuff goes to.


Refund the buyer and the broken light should be yours.
Norm


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## LOUSYGREATWALLGM (Sep 28, 2009)

Beaver_2 said:


> Well the Post Office accepted my claim on the 25th of September and I got a check today for $175.00
> The only problem is that it doesn't cover the $12 I lost in postage, or the customer's postage. But I'm glad they accepted the claim and promptly sent me a check. I just wonder where all the broken stuff goes to.


Glad to hear they refunded your light  Just try to retrieve the light and all expenses on postage are more than covered :thumbsup:

*I now can sell my PH50 with less worries on losing the package while its on transit lovecpf


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## Beaver_2 (Sep 29, 2009)

Norm said:


> Refund the buyer and the broken light should be yours.
> Norm


Forgot to mention that I already did it. I have no idea where the broken light is, we sent it in to the USPS postage center for evidence that they broke it. I have no idea what they're going to do with it.



LOUSYGREATWALLGM said:


> Glad to hear they refunded your light  Just try to retrieve the light and all expenses on postage are more than covered :thumbsup:



I doubt USPS will give me back the light, otherwise you could start a business shipping broken stuff in the mail and collecting money from it and then shipping the same item again. I wish I could get my $12 back but I don't want to haggle with them on the phone for hours trying to get it back.


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## windstrings (Sep 30, 2009)

There has been some discussion on the Oracle 35 Watt's battery self discharging over only a few days and in some cases not accepting a charge again.

I agree, its the battery and not the charger.
Its pretty easy to test the charger with a voltmeter for voltage, you could hook it up to a resistor to check if it can deliver load or amperage.

But if you read the lengthy discussions about it, some batteries have an issue. Possibly bad Quality control where they are made.

I don't know how long you've had it, but *your best bet may be to give him a full refund and you deal with the place you bought it from for a return*.

I almost sold mine until I discovered this issue and so returned it minus a restocking fee and still got more back than I would have sold it for.

If I would have let them "test" it first which would have took several days to weeks, I may have gotten a full refund, but instead I just returned it under the "unconditional warranty" that states you can return it for any reason.


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## ampdude (Oct 1, 2009)

I think with the cheaper Chinese HID's working one day and not the next is not that surprising really, is it.


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## windstrings (Oct 1, 2009)

Well its ashamed.. the rest of the light seems to be a fine light for the money... fix the battery issue and its a nice light.

But your right... when these types of situations are not rectified aggressively, it starts making your imagination wander into believing there was a mass bad lot they are just trying to dump onto the market.

Does that explain the low price?.. maybe.. but the battery is pretty simple and there is supposed to be a newer generation of battery out now.

I would think the original vendor is in a good place to rectify the situation, or quit selling them as they will only bring him a bad name.


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## Billy Ram (Oct 20, 2009)

Well my Oracle 35X-14 came in yesterday with the battery low enough the LEDs wouldn't light. But they charged up ok. After installing the battery pack in the light and turning it on I got a weak beam that never came up. So I pushed the button to the next power and it went out. Both the blue and green power indicators stay lit all the time now and the light won't come on. The battery pack voltage was a arround 12 volts last night. I'll check it when I get home from work today and see what's happened. The indicator lamps being lit arround the clock may have drained the battery down enough to shut it down. If not I'll turn the LEDs on to help.
Billy


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## alpg88 (Oct 20, 2009)

i had problem with that type of battery as well, i bought p7 light from tactical hid, same body as their 24w hid but with p7.
at first the light worked for 5 min or so than shut off, those 3 leds on the battery didn't light up, batt was fully charged, but as soon as i plugged in the charger, batt. unfroze, 3 leds came to life, and everything worked fine for 5 min, than the same story, i emailed the guy and he replaced battery, and it happened again, but i noticed if i didn't screw tailcap all the way, it worked fine, for hours, so i emailed the guy again, and this time he replaced entire unit, never had problem since.


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## SunFire900 (Oct 20, 2009)

Having had my own set of problems with these battery packs I have come to a possible conclusion as to why there have been so many pack failures with these lights.

I think that these lights/battery packs were possibly manufactured many months before they even arrived in the states and the batteries probably were not matched, nor of the highest quality, when the packs were built. This caused the packs to deteriorate and the possibility of "rejuvenating" them is slim to none.

The dual mode battery _may_ draw a _small _amount of power from the battery even when it is not installed in the flashlight. This has not been confirmed to my knowledge. So when in storage for months, the battery will become over discharged and relatively useless. It must then be replaced with a new, and hopefully, fresh pack. 

These six-cell packs also are being charged in a 3S-2P configuration which is not the best way to charge Li-ion packs. Should be a _balanced_ charge on multi-cell packs. This is not so easy to accomplish in a low priced light, I guess. 

I now have one single mode pack which holds its charge very well and one (readily replaced by Oracle) dual mode pack that loses most of its charge in a month. I still like the light, though. Just as you do yours.


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## Billy Ram (Oct 20, 2009)

I'm sending my battery back for a replacement. It still has 11.5 volts but that's a .5 v loss from last night and won't work in the light. I believe mine has a problem with the switch.
Billy


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## Patriot (Oct 20, 2009)

It should be coming off of the charger at 12.6V and holding at least 12.3V by the next day. I'd send it back too.


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## Billy Ram (Oct 20, 2009)

Patriot said:


> It should be coming off of the charger at 12.6V and holding at least 12.3V by the next day. I'd send it back too.


It may have had arround 12.6 v. off the charger. I checked it late last night after I took it back out of the light with a cheap analog multi meter I have arround the house that reads close to my Fluke and it could still have been close to 12.5 v. 
Like SunFire900 I kinda like this light if I can get a battery pack that works. It's a bit larger than a Mag 4-D but not too big or heavy to carry. I can see you don't want to inter the dark carrying this light without a good back up.
Billy


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## windstrings (Oct 20, 2009)

One of the "main" reasons I pay for Lithium Ion is the shelf life.
The Oracles are notorious for the batteries bleeding away shelf life.

You have to consider 3 things now why you still have these options.
1. Can you return the battery and get another that will not drain?
2. Can you live with it knowing if you keep it, you really can't sell it in good conscious later on with it doing that way.
3. Return the whole light now why you can and count your losses. For a little more you have other options.. like the L35 or others.

I chose option # 3.


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## Patriot (Oct 21, 2009)

Good post Windy. Personally I could not live with a li-ion light that went from 12.6V to 11.0V in the span of 24 hours. This design, fault, characteristic, what ever you want to call it, gives up one of the main advantages of li-ion battery packs. I wonder if the Tactial HID doesn't have the issues that AAC supplied Oracles are coming with?


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## Billy Ram (Oct 21, 2009)

I'm sending the battery pack back today for a exchange. I will give the new battery pack a chance and will let yall know how it does. If this light isn't reliable enough to use I'll be sending it back also. It's not starting out too good but I have a light that had a problem soon after I bought it that got fixed and has been working ever sence.
Billy


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## windstrings (Oct 21, 2009)

Patriot said:


> Good post Windy. Personally I could not live with a li-ion light that went from 12.6V to 11.0V in the span of 24 hours. This design, fault, characteristic, what ever you want to call it, gives up one of the main advantages of li-ion battery packs. I wonder if the Tactial HID doesn't have the issues that AAC supplied Oracles are coming with?




NOthing wrong in giving them another chance, but realizing the normal shelf life of lithium Ion is 24 - 36 months "or even up to 20 years" that makes you wonder if they are ditching a bad lot rather than redoing them.

Its one thing to "get what you pay for", its quite another to pay for trash thats worthless at any price.

But if you give them a chance, when you get your new battery, test it.
You should be able to leave it for a month with no appreciable difference in charge loss.
Knowing how Lithium Ion holds it voltage very well even under load, I see some serious concerns for a battery that drops voltage just sitting on the shelf.



> Energy/weight 100-160 Wh/kg[1] Energy/size 250-360 Wh/L[1] Power/weight ~250-~340 W/kg[2] Charge/discharge efficiency 80-90%[3] Energy/consumer-price *2.8-5* Wh/US$[4] Self-discharge rate 5%-10%/month Time durability (24-36) months Cycle durability ~1200 cycles[_citation needed_] Nominal Cell Voltage 3.6 / 3.7 V


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## n4zov (Oct 21, 2009)

When I sell something I make it a point to refund the buyers' money including return shipping if they are not completely satisfied - and I do it immediately. I do not like having to involve the buyer in waiting for an insurance claim, etc while I have their money. My reputation is worth more than the value of any item I am selling even if I run some risk of being ripped off.


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## windstrings (Oct 21, 2009)

n4zov said:


> When I sell something I make it a point to refund the buyers' money including return shipping if they are not completely satisfied - and I do it immediately. I do not like having to involve the buyer in waiting for an insurance claim, etc while I have their money. My reputation is worth more than the value of any item I am selling even if I run some risk of being ripped off.



I agree, as painful as it may be, thats the only way to apply the Golden Rule.
"He that has the Gold, makes the rules"... opps.. no... not that one! I Meant the other Golden Rule! 

Usually the original buyer has alot more leverage getting satisfaction than the second buyer and in order to keep a buyers trust among CPFers, it just about has to be that way.

Most people "buyers and sellers" are reasonable to deal with if they are getting treated fairly.


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## alpg88 (Oct 21, 2009)

i my case i doubt batteries discharged rate was the problem, poor assembly of the unit is to blame, i,m pretty sure if i was stock with it i,d take it apart and figured what was pinching, or pushing in the wrong place, but didn't have to i got it replaced, the unit is given to my friend on his b-day, he isn't flashaholic, to him the light is like the best ever.


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## windstrings (Oct 21, 2009)

I light given is a bit different than a light sold, but nevertheless, the battery problem is pretty common with the Oracle, but others have claimed they have gotten good batteries, so there is hope.

I assume its the Oracle your talking about... I do like the light, but it has to be powered with something... have to have a good battery too and since the battery is integrated with the ballast, it makes it hard to fix it yourself.

My vote is they make it good or get a full refund.

As much as he likes the light, it will be disappointing if he can't use it, and there are other 35W HID options.

If he got it as a gift, maybe he will front shipping expenses etc to make it good.


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## Billy Ram (Oct 29, 2009)

My replacement battery came today and it wasn't completely dead like the other one. It charged up well and came off at 12.66v. So I installed it in the light and turned it on. The light came on and started to get bright, went to flashing and went out. I can turn it off and back on and it will come back up and start flashing and go back off. 
It's all boxed up and will be heading to UPS in the morning. I hope I don't have too much trouble getting a refund. 
Billy


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## windstrings (Oct 29, 2009)

Billy Ram said:


> My replacement battery came today and it wasn't completely dead like the other one. It charged up well and came off at 12.66v. So I installed it in the light and turned it on. The light came on and started to get bright, went to flashing and went out. I can turn it off and back on and it will come back up and start flashing and go back off.
> It's all boxed up and will be heading to UPS in the morning. I hope I don't have too much trouble getting a refund.
> Billy




Just based on your symptoms.. it sounds like the battery never charged up... it takes several hours and you can't go by the voltage as NiMh and LiIon both hold thier voltage rock solid till right before dead 'and thats with a load" let alone without a load.

I would make sure its charged all night... "maybe 12 hours".... I can't remember what the recommendation is.. then if it acts up after that, you have a problem.

But if its the Oracle your talking about, it may be another bad battery.... too bad too.. because the light is pretty nice!


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## Billy Ram (Oct 30, 2009)

It charged for about 2 hrs, the light turned green and quit charging. Telling me it was fully charged. After taking it back out of the light it had 12.56v. I'm thinking too this may be another bad battery. These HIDs are too much trouble for me. The purpose of the HID is a reliable light to be called on when needed. I don' trust this one and it's going back.
Billy


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## windstrings (Oct 30, 2009)

Billy Ram said:


> It charged for about 2 hrs, the light turned green and quit charging. Telling me it was fully charged. After taking it back out of the light it had 12.56v. I'm thinking too this may be another bad battery. These HIDs are too much trouble for me. The purpose of the HID is a reliable light to be called on when needed. I don' trust this one and it's going back.
> Billy



Could be right since it thinks it charged when in fact maybe one cell is trashed and can't support a load.

While LiIon has awesome shelf life, cell phone manufacturers still want you to give a 12+ hour charge to equalize all the cells before using.

But reality is, you should be able to get several minutes of perfect use even without charging unless you have another shelf life issue with the battery.

Don't lose hope in HID's though, its tough to compare thier sheer lumen output... there are other "good" options.

Just do a little searching on CPF first, usually problems have been documented unless your on the bleeding edge of buying a new light.

This issue your having for instance was been fully documented already here.


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