# Best cell to use in a flashlight stored in a car???



## campingnut (Mar 30, 2011)

Well, I think the title speaks for itself, but here I go...

Currently, the emergency lights that I leave in each of the cars have lithium primaries in them. This has been working, but once these are depleted, I would like to replace them with rechargeable cells.

My first thought is to put Eneloops in them, but I was not sure if the extreme temperature changes would kill the cells. I live in N. California so the winter lows are usually in the upper 30's to summer highs in the 100's. I wanted to hear what the CPF community had to think on these two questions:

1. What is the best cell to store in a car?
2. What is the best rechargeable option?
**Please be specific about both type and brand***

Thanks for the replies.


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## VidPro (Mar 30, 2011)

i use li-ion and lithium most, but only because i dont ever use them 
and i was so freaking TIRED of the stupid alkalines and old school ni-cd and ni-mhy being DEAD , I mean not even a dull yellow glow dead, a not turn on i am ticked off now dead. If i ever actually needed the thing that just sits in the car, and could save my life someday.

With the li-ion i am taking the risk of it dying before ever getting a full lifecycle. but i used primo LG cells, and every test years later, the thing is still ready to go.
I prefer rechargable for only one reason, i can maintance it, instead of toss it. Ya never really know how much power a primary has untill it dies when your using it 
i had to make sure that there was ZERO parasitic draw, (Hard switch or lockout) in the flashlight, and i have to keep the car cool, and them in a cooler places in the car, being in california.

neither of these will freeze out on me either, they may not work as fast in extreeme cold, but they will still work good.

my other choice would certannly be some sort of LSD cell, especially if i was going to use it more often, but the electrolyte in the ni-?? batteries can freeze much sooner. good choice for california, I replaced the c-d lights with accuevolution, and they hold out for 1 year at a time, even used.

i would have more Ni-mhy LSd in the cars IF it had existed when i set them up last, the LSD stuff could have save me from having to MOD stuff into li-ion operation.

Lithium, I use minimally, and although they are not "best" and are high priced, it is usually E2 energyser lithium.
alkaline, no way, no how , not ever again


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## campingnut (Mar 30, 2011)

VidPro said:


> I prefer rechargable for only one reason, i can maintance it, instead of toss it. Ya never really know how much power a primary has untill it dies when your using it



I agree, every cell in my house is rechargeable.



> i had to make sure that there was ZERO parasitic draw, (Hard switch or lockout) in the flashlight



I EDC (sometimes two lights :candle: ), so I tend to keep the cells in a ziplock out of the light to keep the tension off the springs and to protect from any parasitic draw. 



> alkaline, no way, no how , not ever again



I completely agree, I have had way too many electronics ruined from alkalines.


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## Battery Guy (Mar 31, 2011)

I go with Energizer Ultimate Lithium AA cells in my car flashlights, and I keep a spare pair in the car as well because, as VidPro pointed out, you never know how much charge is left in those lithium primary cells.

If you want to go with rechargeables, then lithium-ion will work. Keep in mind that storing a lithium-ion cell above about 60-70 degC (140-158 degF) will cause significantly faster aging that will result in permanent capacity loss and increased internal resistance. Try to keep the flashlight out of direct sunlight in as cool of a location as possible. Also, charging the battery to 4.0 V or 4.1 V instead of 4.2 V will help greatly to improve longevity in this application.

Cheers,
BG


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## campingnut (Apr 1, 2011)

Battery Guy said:


> If you want to go with rechargeables, then lithium-ion will work. Keep in mind that storing a lithium-ion cell above about 60-70 degC (140-158 degF) will cause significantly faster aging that will result in permanent capacity loss and increased internal resistance. Try to keep the flashlight out of direct sunlight in as cool of a location as possible. Also, charging the battery to 4.0 V or 4.1 V instead of 4.2 V will help greatly to improve longevity in this application.
> 
> Cheers,
> BG



I never considered Li-ion for the car as I thought they were just too fragile of a chemistry. 

I am wondering if anyone knows how Eneloops hold up in a car environment? Does Li-ion hold up better than an LSD NiMH? :thinking:


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## VidPro (Apr 1, 2011)

campingnut said:


> Does Li-ion hold up better than an LSD NiMH? :thinking:


 
would depend entirely on the quality of the cell. 
if i put the average ultra-china piece of junk li-ion in the car, it would have to be checked way more often, and tossed out regularly, might as well use primary IF the use of the "car light" is not high. If the use of the light is high, then i only have to worry about comming back to the car in flames 
in the same sence
if i put these blasted dura-sell and energyser NON-lsd 2500s and other various high cap ni-mh cells in the car, i could not Trust them to maintain thier charge over time. Depending on thier age and cycles and how they were treated. Even today there is MANY high-cap ni-mh cell items that would leave me high and dry , just like 10 years ago. so it has to be a very good high longevity rechargable, anything else wont cut it.

the Eneloop thing discharges faster in high temps.
the eneloop discharges faster than a good li-ion in most temps.
the li-ion will have more energy available then the eneloop after parked in the car for 1 year, but i wouldnt call the ammount significant they will both pull off LSD. and it depends (again) on any protection that might do a teeny tiny drain of the li-ion.
it is likely the eneloop 2000 version, could outlive in Time even the best li-ion, not enough time to tell yet.

Then
all that changes 100 percent, if your car has no heat protection and the cell can get to 140*+F , in some hot climate, or reverse that and i am in the midwest in a snowstorm at -20*f. I would prefer that the li-ion not get extreeme hot, and that i didnt have to Need ni-?? in extreeme cold.
and
if the "wetness" in the ni-mh cell item freezes and thaws and freezes and thaws, which would be somewhere below freezing, then i wouldnt trust it , the solvent in the li-ion is going to go much lower in temps before it actually freezes. that Contraction expansion damage, from huge temperature swings.


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## campingnut (Apr 1, 2011)

VidPro said:


> would depend entirely on the quality of the cell.
> if i put the average ultra-china piece of junk li-ion in the car, it would have to be checked way more often, and tossed out regularly, might as well use primary IF the use of the "car light" is not high. If the use of the light is high, then i only have to worry about comming back to the car in flames
> in the same sence
> if i put these blasted dura-sell and energyser NON-lsd 2500s and other various high cap ni-mh cells in the car, i could not Trust them to maintain thier charge over time. Depending on thier age and cycles and how they were treated. Even today there is MANY high-cap ni-mh cell items that would leave me high and dry , just like 10 years ago. so it has to be a very good high longevity rechargable, anything else wont cut it.
> ...



Thanks for the great information. I almost exclusively use Eneloops and AW protected li-ion cells. I am thinking about running an experiment and putting one of each in my car for six months to see which fairs better


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## Gregozedobe (Apr 2, 2011)

campingnut said:


> Thanks for the great information. I almost exclusively use Eneloops and AW protected li-ion cells. I am thinking about running an experiment and putting one of each in my car for six months to see which fairs better


 
If you aren't using the light much then what is the problem with using lithium primaries ? Seems to me that they will be more likely to work properly than rechargeables over long times (12 months+) without attention. And if you aren't using them then you aren't depeleting them so they aren't being thrown out. If you do use the lights frequently then I'd be leaning towards eneloops because they are a bit safer.


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## Battery Guy (Apr 2, 2011)

Campingnut

How do you intend to use the flashlight kept in your car? Is this an "emergency" light that will be used very infrequently, but needs to work when you grab for it? Or is this a frequently used (at least once every couple of weeks) flashlight? 

If this is an emergency type light, then definitely go with the lithium primary batteries and throw a couple spares in the glove box just to be safe. I will typically pull the lithium batteries out of the car flashlight and replace them with new batteries every year in the fall after the heat of the summer has done its worst. I then use the batteries that were in the car in other devices around the house. That way I can guarantee that my emergency lights have reasonably fresh and charged batteries.

If you are going to use the flashlight relatively frequently, then go for rechargeables. In this case, either eneloops or high quality lithium-ions will be fine. Both are going to age faster stored in the car. You will probably see noticeable capacity loss and impedance rise in the first year. Be sure to use a flashlight that has a low light mode. This will help mitigate impedance rise in the battery due to accelerated aging or low temperature use. 

Also, do NOT buy a charger that runs on DC and charge your battery/flashlight in the car. Charging hot batteries can be dangerous. Let the temperature of the battery cool to ambient before charging.

If it was me, and I wanted to use rechargeables in my car flashlight, I think I would choose eneloops, but I would also keep a 4-pack of Energizer Ultimates in the glove box just in case the eneloops are dead when you need them.

Cheers,
BG


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## campingnut (Apr 2, 2011)

Battery Guy said:


> How do you intend to use the flashlight kept in your car? Is this an "emergency" light that will be used very infrequently, but needs to work when you grab for it?



Yes, this is a backup/extra light as I EDC.



> If it was me, and I wanted to use rechargeables in my car flashlight, I think I would choose eneloops, but I would also keep a 4-pack of Energizer Ultimates in the glove box just in case the eneloops are dead when you need them.



I think I am going this way. I know they have an advertised shelf life of ten years, how long would you expect the ultimates to last in a car? 5 years?


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## Battery Guy (Apr 2, 2011)

campingnut said:


> I know they have an advertised shelf life of ten years, how long would you expect the ultimates to last in a car? 5 years?


 
The rule of thumb is that the degradation rate increases by a factor of 2 for every 10 degC increase in temperature. I think that the Energizer Ultimate Lithium AA cells are rated at 15 years at 21 degC. Storing them at 31 degC would drop that to 7.5 years, and storing them at 41 degC would drop it to 3.75 years...etc...

The problem is that the temperature of your car fluctuates quite a bit, which makes predicting kind of hard. I think that it is safe to say that you easily have 1-2 years of vehicle storage, depending on your local climate, and still get good performance out of those cells.

Cheers,
BG


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## campingnut (Apr 3, 2011)

BG - Thanks for the info. This will give me a good idea of what to expect. :thanks:


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## Sugarboy (Apr 3, 2011)

Lithium primaries


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## Mr. LED (Apr 3, 2011)

Lithium primaries are the best for car storage.


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## Battery Guy (Apr 3, 2011)

campingnut said:


> BG - Thanks for the info. This will give me a good idea of what to expect. :thanks:


 
Just keep in mind that those aging rates are "rules of thumb", so they are only estimates. Also, they only hold true so long as a secondary degradation mechanism is not activated. For example, the 2X aging rate per 10 degC is a reasonable estimate for lithium-ion cells up to about 60-70 degC, at which point the lithiated graphite begins reacting with the electrolyte and the aging rate increases rapidly.


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## pck50 (Apr 3, 2011)

It all depends on what kind of a battery it may take.
If its a Size AAA, AA, C, D, 9 volt. = Would Highly recommend Duracell Ultra, Eveready Lithium, or if its a C123a = I would only recommend a SoShine 700mah 3.7 volt Rechargeable which have an amazing Power and wicked lasting capability.

Additionally recommend SoShine cells for sizes, 10440, 14500, 17650. 18650. AAA, AA, and more.

Best of Luck
Wishing you a Great day.

PETE


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## jayflash (Apr 3, 2011)

I practice what Battery Guy recommends and use primary lithium cells because my car lights are used only for emergencies. LiIons have less capacity and cost more so I don't use them. I'm hoping that the Energizer Lithiums will degrade less from the wide temperature fluctuations than Eneloops might. My car's interior can range from a minus 15F to over 100F degrees. 

Keeping spares follows the "two is one" philosophy and may be handy for an unexpected, extended, need.


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## SilverFox (Apr 3, 2011)

My Pelican Big D light uses a lead acid gel cell and it has been doing very well in my vehicle over several years...

Tom


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## Battery Guy (Apr 4, 2011)

pck50 said:


> If its a Size AAA, AA, C, D, 9 volt. = Would Highly recommend Duracell Ultra, Eveready Lithium, or if its a C123a = I would only recommend a SoShine 700mah 3.7 volt Rechargeable which have an amazing Power and wicked lasting capability.



Eveready/Energizer lithiums are only available in AAA, AA and 9 Volt. Which Duracell Ultra's are you referring to? In Europe you can buy Duracell Ultra Lithium AA cells, but in North America they are not available. I am not aware of anyone who offers a 1.5 V lithium C or D cell, but would love to learn if such a beast is available.

Cheers,
BG


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## VidPro (Apr 5, 2011)

Battery Guy said:


> Eveready/Energizer lithiums are only available in AAA, AA and 9 Volt. Which Duracell Ultra's are you referring to? In Europe you can buy Duracell Ultra Lithium AA cells, but in North America they are not available. I am not aware of anyone who offers a 1.5 V lithium C or D cell, but would love to learn if such a beast is available.
> 
> Cheers,
> BG


 
you know about the SAFT lithium primary D sized batteries, they are 100% for backup and slow stuff, medical backup and mabey military for something.
There is at least one cell item in D size, that has just enough speed , that it could be usefull for some lights.

With these "backup" TYPE of larger lithium cell items, if you start using them at higher currents they cannot deliver the capacity, but there is at least one with major capacity and Some speed, when you figure from the graphs the capacity when using at that speed, it might be usable and blow away an alkaline

ultralife also has C&D lithium primaries that claim to do real speed with capacity also. 
http://ultralifecorporation.com/download/70/

most of this stuff requires full "hasmat" type of shipping, due to the grams of lithium .


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## Battery Guy (Apr 5, 2011)

Hi Vidpro

I am familiar with those cells, but they are all 3.6 V (lithium-thionyl chloride) or 3.0 V (lithium-mno2) nominal voltages. 

The response from pck50 above seemed to imply that there were 1.5 V lithium cells available in C and D sizes.

Cheers,
BG


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## TyJo (Aug 7, 2011)

http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?200591-Eneloops-Left-In-Car-For-1-Year-Results


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## awyeah (Nov 25, 2012)

*Best Battery Chemistry for Storage in Car?*

I'm looking for a new light to keep in my car. I live in Northeastern Ohio, so the weather can be anywhere from 0 to 90 Fahrenheit, with occasional extremes a little further. Obviously, things are hotter inside a car. What's the best and safest battery chemistry to use in this situation? 

Thanks!


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## Raze (Nov 25, 2012)

*Best Battery Chemistry for Storage in Car?*

Lithium primaries like the Energizer L91 would be a good bet. Else, LSD NiMH cell is another option since it is more leak-resistant than Alkalines. God forbid those Long-Life Super Heavy-Duty Carbon-Zincs! 

To me, chances are that when one is gonna reach for the flashlight that resides in the car, it's would be during a situation where and when it's crucial to rely upon that light. When it matters the most, Lithium primaries are the best option, IMHO. 

I keep a Rayovac Indestructible 2xAA loaded with L91s and this flashlight lives in the glove box. 

Other than that, having a headlamp is God-sent, a lesson learnt when I had to change a flat tire alone, during a rainy night at 2 AM. Holding a light by jamming it between your neck and shoulder while both of your hands were wrenching lug nuts loose is pure torture. I think I musta have walked with my head tilted to one side for a couple of days after that. Kept a Petzl Tikka2 Plus with L92s in the boot ever since.


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## Tsportmat (Nov 25, 2012)

*Re: Best Battery Chemistry for Storage in Car?*

I have kept a Mini Maglite with LED upgrade packed with a couple of eneloops in my car for about a year. No problems so far and no high discharge. I'm in England so won't get the weather extremes like some of you, however the car gets pretty hot in the summer. 

I like the fact that they're rechargeable, every few months I can bring them out, run a test cycle on the BC-700 to see that everything is fine. I do have one pack of Energizer Lithiums for real emergencies too - it would have to be an emergency to get me to use £2 per cell primaries!!


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## RI Chevy (Nov 25, 2012)

*Re: Best Battery Chemistry for Storage in Car?*

CR123 3v batteries.


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## campingnut (Dec 30, 2012)

Since my OP I have converted into an Eneloop addict. Although my EDC has a protected 14500, most everything else has eneloops, car lights included. This has worked out well. I do bring them in every couple of months to cycle them and top them off.


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## RI Chevy (Dec 30, 2012)

Cool. Thanks for the update.


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## mccririck (Dec 30, 2012)

Energizer Lithium.


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## Billy Ram (Jan 1, 2013)

I have a Olight M-30 with AW 2600 Li-ions in it that's been riding in my door pocket for a couple of years with no problems. It gets used now and then so I just swap out the batterys for a fully charged set after using a few times. I don't rely on just one light and always have at least a couple with me. If I go out of town I bring along a charger.
Billy


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## Yamabushi (Jan 1, 2013)

campingnut said:


> My first thought is to put Eneloops in them, but I was not sure if the extreme temperature changes would kill the cells.



Eneloop product data sheet states the following storage temperature ranges: Less than 90 days -20°C (-4°F) - 40°C (104°F) Less than 1year -20°C (-4°F) - 30°C (86°F) 

The temperature in a closed car on a sunny day can easily reach 60°C (140°F).


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## mccririck (Jan 1, 2013)

Not sure why you'd bother with an eneloop in a flashlight that isnt used much. you'd be better with an Energizer Lithium - they have a very long shelf life, and 1.6V so when you do need it it's going to be bright.


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## crazyk4952 (Jan 1, 2013)

According to data from the energizer website, lithium L91 batteries can be stored up to 140 deg F. If one lives somewhere that sees outside temps in the summer exceed 100 degrees, is it still safe to store lithium primaries in the car?


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## VidPro (Jan 2, 2013)

crazyk4952 said:


> According to data from the energizer website, lithium L91 batteries can be stored up to 140 deg F. If one lives somewhere that sees outside temps in the summer exceed 100 degrees, is it still safe to store lithium primaries in the car?



No it is not safe to get the lithium or li-ion batteries that hot. many California temperature testings of cars in no shade , dark car color, windows up, sun blazing in, got temps of 144*F, 146*F , and 151*F even. And you know someone has thier li-ion gps sitting there in the direct sun, its gonna happen.

I always think about all the other things in the $$$$$ car that also do not like temps, including the handsfree (using li-ion) and the gps device and the laser in the cd player, and lcd screens, the components of the cars computer, even the plastic ages way faster. Address the whole car. Reflective window shades, light colored covers, air entry somewhere (when safe to do so) keeping the battery item out of "direct" sun, finding cooler and better insulated locations of the car. Depending on the car, there can be cooler areas, that are not effected as much by direct sun.


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## crazyk4952 (Jan 2, 2013)

VidPro said:


> No it is not safe to get the lithium or li-ion batteries that hot. many California temperature testings of cars in no shade , dark car color, windows up, sun blazing in, got temps of 144*F, 146*F , and 151*F even. And you know someone has thier li-ion gps sitting there in the direct sun, its gonna happen.



That's what I thought. This is why I use alkaline batteries for my car flashlight. Yes, they can leak, but they will not vent-with-flame!


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## Wiggle (Jan 2, 2013)

I use a Jetbeam PA40 as my car light for several reasons. Polymer means it won't freeze bare hands, but is big enough to grip well with gloves on. Also it takes standard AA which my EDC also does. It is a 4 x AA light currently I have it loaded up with 4 Duraloops that I top off every few months just to be safe. But lately it's been quite chilly here (closing in on -20C some nights) and I've been wondering if those Duraloops will faulter under high current drain when I really need them if the light is that cold. I have 4 L91s sitting right beside the PA40 in a case. My logic is to have them as a failsafe backup to the Duraloops. I'm wondering now if I should just replace the Duraloops with more L91s, I use the light very infrequently. 

The only thing that bothers me about that is that once I "crack the seal" on the L91s I can't really be sure how much charge they have left, and it's silly but that bothers me for some reason, though I guess the PA40s battery meter should ensure there are no surprises. Also if I get to the point where I know that I've used about half the capacity in the cells the OCD in me would rather put in fresh cells but it's so wasteful especially since I use rechargeables on everything else so I wouildn't have anywhere to use them really. Haha is this mentaility common among users who always use rechargeables rather than primary?

What do you think, keep the Duraloops or just go all L91? I'm in Canada where 4 x L91 are not as cheap down in the US.


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## VidPro (Jan 2, 2013)

wiggle , ya cant discharge test a primary  then use it, I know the feeling. something had to be higher than -20*F if the human is going to survive there, so there is always body warming it. there is also having a quad of the primary as contained spares?


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## mccririck (Jan 2, 2013)

Energizer type Lithiums all the way, they have a use by date of about 15 years in the future, they're 1.6V, and unless your car's going to be getting stupid hot they're the most reliable battery to have in your light.


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## Wiggle (Jan 2, 2013)

It's pretty cold today, guess I could always take that cold PA40 and leave it outside my window for a cold weather runtime test to see how the duraloops stand up on the high modes. Haha and yes I find that aspect of primaries a bit weird, I like being able to discharge to confirm how long a cell can work, with primaries you just have to count on it.


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