# Preon Revo Discontinued?!



## Hoosier Light (Sep 28, 2011)

I'm a relative newcomer here, usually with not much to contribute. So will some of you experts please tell me why in the world 4sevens is discontinuing the Revo? Given its price, size, and features I just can't believe it didn't sell well. I think it is a much better design than regular Preons. Please tell me David is planning to offer an updated version.


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## pjandyho (Sep 28, 2011)

I don't think anyone has any idea. Unless David chimes in we would not know for sure. Maybe it doesn't sell as well as the Preon 1 and 2? Maybe the lookalike Klarus at a cheaper budget is too strong a competition to make it worth the while continuing the manufacture of the ReVO? Maybe the ReVO series are experiencing a lot of spring issues that could not be resolved? I don't know.


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## the.Mtn.Man (Sep 28, 2011)

It's a shame since the Preon ReVO is one of the finest AAA lights ever made.


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## Serial Chiller (Sep 28, 2011)

iTP A3 / Olight i3 might be one reason.


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## PCC (Sep 28, 2011)

Serial Chiller said:


> iTP A3 / Olight i3 might be one reason.


 Yeah, but, those are budget lights compared to the Preon ReVO.


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## m1ke (Sep 30, 2011)

Strange—I just went to order two for gifts. I'm considering the Quark mini AA instead, but read a review saying that the thread was quite loose, which isn't acceptable. Nothing more annoying than accidentally cycling too far through the power levels.


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## jruser (Sep 30, 2011)

It seems to me that 4Sevens is going away from the enthusiast market:
- discontinued the Revo
- discontinued the 18650 body
- took much longer than other companies to get their main line on XM-L
- despite making their entire line to be lego-able, not going to be selling XM-L heads by themselves
- poor battery configuration on the S18, from an enthusiast perspective
- no longer offering specialty LED's such as the S2, S3, neutral, warm, RGB, etc.
- seemingly less and less participation from David on the forums

All we can do is guess, but I think they quit offering the Revo simply because they are going after a different market now.

As an enthusiast, in the relatively recent past I had little reason to consider a light that wasn't 4Sevens. Now, I can hardly justify any of their lights.


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## gnef (Sep 30, 2011)

I think that is a bit harsh. 

We all know why 4Sevens stopped giving us information - people were immature when things changed (design, timing, etc.), so they decided to only present a new light when it was ready to ship. That is our fault as a community.

They also told us why the 18650 body was discontinued - slow sales. They are still a business, and need to find new ways to grow and make money. If they don't, they won't be able to survive, so we need to encourage new manufacturers like 4sevens to gain a larger general market share.

No one but them knows why they decided to discontinue the Revo line. I can only infer that it was a tough decision for them for quite a while simply because their responses kept changing. I am sure they had to weigh multiple factors, and it looks like they decided to stop production of the Revo lights. It is definitely unfortunate since I do like the two SS ones I have, and I will definitely be holding on to them.

We can only make inferences and assumptions as to why they do what they do. In the end, we all need to decide with our wallet to communicate to manufacturers. If there is a light that you want to keep being produced, then you need to buy it, and encourage others to buy it. If there is a manufacturer that you aren't happy with, then stop buying lights from them.

That is the message they got for the 18650 body, the RGB, and potentially the Revo (again, we don't know all the details).

For me, I am quite selective with my lights. I do have many 4sevens lights (not all, by far), and I like to support new manufacturers when I can, especially when they are local (I live in Atlanta), and I buy lights for specific purposes that make sense for me and my situation. I will probably never buy the S18, and that's ok to me - I have an S12 that I thoroughly enjoy, and I will continue to buy from 4Sevens and other manufacturers that produce lights that I desire if funds allow.


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## skyfire (Sep 30, 2011)

i wished 4sevens would make another revo run with neutral/warm tint, or more neutral/warm tint run of any kind.
but it doesnt seem like thats going to happen, so im going to settle for a i3.

from what i can see, 4sevens seems to be gearing more towards the general market, and leaving the niche market, which would be us.

but its all good, and i hope they gain a larger market share


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## Hoosier Light (Oct 1, 2011)

New theory. A number of people have noted the great similarity between the Revo and the Klarus MI10. I believe I read Klarus was a manufacturer of lights for other companies before it started marketing them on its own. Maybe, as some have suggested, Klarus was the manufacturer of the Revo. Could it be that there was some dispute between 4Sevens and Klarus relating to the introduction of the MI10? Did David want Klarus to stay away from the Revo design? Did Klarus make it more difficult or more expensive for 4Sevens to get new Revos? Was there a dispute over rights to the design? This scenario of a conflict between 4Sevens and Klarus would explain the fairly amazing lack of reliable information from 4Sevens over the past several months about whether the Revo was coming back or not. Maybe they were negotiating over that period and now 4Sevens, for whatever reason, has given up. No way this light wasn't popular enough to warrant continued sales by 4Sevens.


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## Ralls (Oct 1, 2011)

Hoosier Light said:


> New theory. A number of people have noted the great similarity between the Revo and the Klarus MI10. I believe I read Klarus was a manufacturer of lights for other companies before it started marketing them on its own. Maybe, as some have suggested, Klarus was the manufacturer of the Revo. Could it be that there was some dispute between 4Sevens and Klarus relating to the introduction of the MI10? Did David want Klarus to stay away from the Revo design? Did Klarus make it more difficult or more expensive for 4Sevens to get new Revos? Was there a dispute over rights to the design? This scenario of a conflict between 4Sevens and Klarus would explain the fairly amazing lack of reliable information from 4Sevens over the past several months about whether the Revo was coming back or not. Maybe they were negotiating over that period and now 4Sevens, for whatever reason, has given up. No way this light wasn't popular enough to warrant continued sales by 4Sevens.



I just ordered the aluminum version of the Mi10 from Going Gear. Apparently, the stainless steel one has been discontinued. This is okay with me, as I prefer the aluminum - lighter and cheaper! It would be nice if the stainless were still available, though, as I know that there are those that prefer that. I prefer the mode programming of the Mi10 over the Mi X6, as I don't want strobe and I prefer low first, not medium.


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## edpmis02 (Oct 1, 2011)

Per the 4Sevens dealer forum.. it has been discontinued:

http://www.cpfmarketplace.com/mp/showthread.php?251128-Revo-Discontinued/page3


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## Beacon of Light (Oct 1, 2011)

I think the Klarus theory sounds likely. Has anyone opened up a ReVo to see if there are components shared with Klarus?


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## moshow9 (Oct 1, 2011)

edpmis02 said:


> Per the 4Sevens dealer forum.. it has been discontinued:
> 
> http://www.cpfmarketplace.com/mp/showthread.php?251128-Revo-Discontinued/page3


 It's just odd that 4Sevens (Trevor) posted a few conflicting entries within that thread (first that it was discontinued, and then it wasn't and he was mistaken, and then it is) and closed the thread abruptly. I do understand the question asked by the original poster was ultimately answered, but the different responses given by the 4Sevens camp seems to have a lot of us confused at the change in the responses.


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## Beacon of Light (Oct 1, 2011)

If 4Sevens is going mainstream and ditching the CPFers that made them what they are, then it's like the person that makes it big and then denies their upbringing as they are ashamed of where they grew up. It's almost like 4Sevens is turning into a Maglite type company now, oblivious of feedback from their customers, which is odd as that was the biggest reason 4Sevens was such a shining star a few years ago when is was spun off from Fenix Flashlights.com or whatever, as David was quick to answer questions and it seemed like 4Sevens were going for innovation and was everything Fenix and Maglite weren't, which was great as it was nice to have a company in tune to the pulse of it's customers the way 4Sevens was in 2008/2009.


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## Ralls (Oct 1, 2011)

^^^I agree with you, Beacon, though it is their prerogative on how to run their business. We're not entitled to anything from them. As nice as it would be for them to cater to the niche market, the reality is that they've chosen a different road and it just is what it is, as sad as that may be.


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## Beacon of Light (Oct 1, 2011)

That is true. I wish them success and hope they still head in the direction of interest to most CPFers. It was nice while it lasted if the honeymoon is over.



Ralls said:


> ^^^I agree with you, Beacon, though it is their prerogative on how to run their business. We're not entitled to anything from them. As nice as it would be for them to cater to the niche market, the reality is that they've chosen a different road and it just is what it is, as sad as that may be.


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## edpmis02 (Oct 1, 2011)

I have a shiny new SS LD01. I got scared off by the green S2 reports during the SS REVO clearance. I have a neutral Preon MINI AA and would love more. but I am not holding my breath.. again.. it is sad!


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## Vesper (Oct 1, 2011)

A whole lot of conjecture here based on the discontinuation of one light.


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## 4sevens (Oct 1, 2011)

Beacon of Light said:


> If 4Sevens is going mainstream and ditching the CPFers that made them what they are, then it's like the person that makes it big and then denies their upbringing as they are ashamed of where they grew up. It's almost like 4Sevens is turning into a Maglite type company now, oblivious of feedback from their customers, which is odd as that was the biggest reason 4Sevens was such a shining star a few years ago when is was spun off from Fenix Flashlights.com or whatever, as David was quick to answer questions and it seemed like 4Sevens were going for innovation and was everything Fenix and Maglite weren't, which was great as it was nice to have a company in tune to the pulse of it's customers the way 4Sevens was in 2008/2009.


Hi Everyone,

David here. I still do a lot of reading on cpf and cpfmp even though I don't post much. I've been following this thread since the beginning and it makes me sad to have to jump in here to clear all the posturing and incredible theories. If I don't somethings people assume it's the truth because of conjecture that has been hashed around, rehashed and hashed around some more. Unfortunately most of his cannot be farther from the truth.

I will just keep it brief and say what I need to say and in general terms.

Firstly, it can't be farther from the truth that I'm "ditching cpfers" and "going against my roots." Just because I'm not here personally replying to all the questions and just because we choose to discontinue one model or line of lights doesn't mean I'm ditching you guys. Lights are added and removed based on various factors, some of which is business reasons, but that is only one of many reasons which I at least 5 come up in my mind related to the revo which I'll resist going into - but I will bring up one - unscrupulous suppliers that go against a very clearly stated contract from the beginning and even holding parts as hostage in order to force us to take certain action. Even if something could have been resolved - I refuse to support a business that do not mean what they say and say what they do not mean. There is no future with such a business relationship - so we'll take our business elsewhere. So this has been going on for a while thus the varying statuses of the Revo as reported here. As of now they are no longer available - but that doesn't mean they won't be available in the future - just not now - and no promises either. 

Beacon - you say we're oblivious of feedback - that can't be further from the truth. We spend a significant amount of resources taking in your specific feedback - and I'm not talking about me. There are staff in the states as well as other parts of the world who are part of the 4sevens development team that are taking in and assimilating the feedback. It's very hurtful to me that you would say that especially because it's completely opposite from the truth. Just because we don't have a knee jerk reaction to each feedback doesn't mean we aren't busy developing stuff in our r&d department.

Third and lastly (last point I'll address) Beacon you imply that we aren't innovating like before. I have to say that can't be farther from the truth too. We've spent tens of thousands on developing patents this year. There are so exciting things coming - some most of our staff do not even know - but it's cooking secretly and cannot be released until patents are filed and approved. I dare say some of the patents will change the way how people expect flashlights work. I believe some of the big players in the flashlight industry will be scrambling to license some of these ideas - because people will be wondering how can a flashlight have been made without such features. Yes - it's a pretty big claim - but I'm willing to back this up with proof with product in due time. The work is extremely exciting BUT we must keep it protected until the right time.

Already I can tell you some of our prototype concepts leaked out because a contractor in asia couldn't keep their mouth shut. There are two lights that have been announced and suggested as a concept on cpf that were ripped off from our idea we prototyped over a year ago. Sadly we probably won't be producing that light - the idea was flatly stolen from us. I'll just keep the prototypes on my desk as a perpetual reminder of what can happen especially with the unscrupulous unethical companies in china.

Sorry to unload a bit. I can stand getting stolen from by companies in china but I can't just stand by and watch cpf members whom I consider family whom I grow up with make hurtful and wrong guesses about 4sevens. I do hope my rant helps clarify some things. Sorry I meant to be brief when I started.

-David


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## Burgess (Oct 1, 2011)

David --

Thank you for your posting.
It answers a lot of questions.


Keep working on your special products & projects.
We will be *patiently waiting* for yer' announcements.


:thumbsup:
_


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## mhphoto (Oct 2, 2011)

4sevens said:


> Already I can tell you some of our prototype concepts leaked out because a contractor in asia couldn't keep their mouth shut. There are two lights that have been announced and suggested as a concept on cpf that were ripped off from our idea we prototyped over a year ago. Sadly we probably won't be producing that light - the idea was flatly stolen from us. I'll just keep the prototypes on my desk as a perpetual reminder of what can happen especially with the unscrupulous unethical companies in china.



I know the obvious reasons for outsourcing manufacturing to China, but given that you've been burned several times by unscrupulous contractors, it begs the question as to why you don't chose somewhere else to do your business, even if just for several (expensive) American-made models. Your company could be the missing link between Maglites and Surefires in the realm of American made flashlights on the store shelves. I've spoken to many Surefire adherents, most of who I wouldn't consider flashoholics but can appreciate a quality product, in attempts to try and get you and your company some converts, but who refuse because you're products aren't made in America (even though 4Sevens in an American company). 

Also I'd would love to know which lighting concepts were stolen from you. Were you hinting at the E01 killer?

And on a side note, I think the reason we all have a bug… _up there_… about the Revo discontinuation—or any 4Sevens light discontinuation really—is because you and your company make *fantastic* products at (again, I understand the Chinese manufacturing reasons) *fantastic* prices. I have four of your lights and I'll be buying many more in the future (unfortunately one of those would've been a Revo).


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## pjandyho (Oct 2, 2011)

I may be going for the long shot here but I think it is time 4Sevens start manufacturing premium products labelled "Made in USA". If it is as good as what you claimed David, I wouldn't mind paying a higher price for it. This will make it easier to monitor manufacturers and ensure easier contractual law enforcement too.


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## xiaoshin (Oct 2, 2011)

finally have some heads up... no worries david i just supported by getting one mini from your website some days ago.
got it in my mail yesterday! luv it!


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## Hoosier Light (Oct 3, 2011)

Thanks very much for clearing the air on this issue, David. It's good when the boss takes the time to set the record straight. We consumers tend to forget all the time, effort, and money that go into the development of the kind of innovative lights you have brought to the market. Not to mention problems with suppliers who don't play by the rules. 

Best thing is you've given me hope for the question behind my original post:
You say regarding the Revo, "but that doesn't mean they won't be available in the future - just not now - and no promises either." I understand no promises, but my fingers are crossed.


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## Ralls (Oct 3, 2011)

Thanks for your post David - it was very refreshing to hear from you again. 

I know it must be frustrating dealing with CPFers, as they tend to get a little over-zealous at times, are nit-picky and have unreasonable demands from a business standpoint. You can't please everybody all the time, and no matter what or how much good you do, there will always be a few very vocal negative Nancys in the bunch. 

I think the reason people get so impassioned about your products is because they were like a breath of fresh air when you came on the scene. You fixed just about every niggle that we had with Fenix products - finally a light with a useful low setting, reverse polarity protection, the ability to use 3.7v rechargeable batteries, perfectly centered LEDs, etc. All this coupled with astounding circuit regulation was wonderful. And later to introduce one of the nicest AAA lights on the market, the Preon Revo, and then to be one of the first to offer batches of neutrals - you were on a roll! 

Bottom line is: you offer some of the nicest lights for the price and back them up with outstanding customer service. 

As a testament to what I've said above, my interest in lights has waxed and waned over the years and most lights that I buy, I sell in short order. One of your lights is an exception to this rule, a neutral Quark 123 Tactical. It's a little beat up at this point, but it does everything I need it to. The only issue that I have with it is the pre-flash. I really like the forward-clicky and the neutral tint most of all. It’s also proven to be very durable, as I’ve dropped it a few times and it still works like a champ. 

The Klarus Mi10 is really a stop-gap for me; if the Revos become available again and I can get one in neutral, then I will definitely be picking one up. In the meantime, the Preon II is looking pretty interesting!


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## fyrstormer (Oct 3, 2011)

4Sevens is now selling some of their lights through various "Geek"-oriented websites and catalogs. Their business is bigger than just catering to the CPF market now, and they have to look at economies of scale when deciding which products to offer, among other...issues that David mentioned.


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## the.Mtn.Man (Oct 3, 2011)

Beacon of Light said:


> If 4Sevens is going mainstream and ditching the CPFers that made them what they are, then it's like the person that makes it big and then denies their upbringing as they are ashamed of where they grew up.



More likely it's too hard to make a profit catering exclusively to the enthusiast market, and they're likely in a position where they can't support both enthusiast and mainstream product lines, so they're going with the one where they'll make the most money.

It's less about 4Sevens not wanting to support the enthusiast market and more about the enthusiast market not wanting to support _them_. I know David went above and beyond on several occasions doing special order runs like warm tints or titanium bodies, and even though there was a thread full of people insisting that they would support such a product, 4Sevens ended up losing money as the premium stock sat unwanted on their shelves.

I don't blame them for doing what they need to in order to keep their doors open.


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## frosty (Oct 3, 2011)

Thanks for your post David.


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## prof (Oct 3, 2011)

Thanks, David. I've got a SS Revo and carry it daily. It replaced a preon on my keyring. That preon displaced an arc AAA-p. I ALMOST went back to the arc when I removed the preon...but the revo is there to stay (well, you know...).

I hope the revo comes back. Nice light.


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## jerrysimons (Oct 3, 2011)

4Sevens :thumbsup:

So does anybody know what light ideas were stolen from 4Sevens? David mentioned that the concept for two lights were announced here on cpf...


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## cave dave (Oct 3, 2011)

****EDIT*** Speculation removed by Cave Dave.


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## 4sevens (Oct 3, 2011)

cave dave said:


> I think its pretty obvious the Klarus Mi10 is a ripoff of the Revo.


Yes it is but the ideas that were ripped off were from lights that have not been released yet - and may never be.


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## pjandyho (Oct 3, 2011)

4sevens said:


> Yes it is but the ideas that were ripped off were from lights that have not been released yet - and may never be.



I don't know if it would be a good thing to share with us what idea was ripped off from you so that we could be made aware. I for one would keep a lookout and avoid buying from that unscrupulous manufacturer who has stolen your idea.


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## 4sevens (Oct 3, 2011)

pjandyho said:


> I don't know if it would be a good thing to share with us what idea was ripped off from you so that we could be made aware. I for one would keep a lookout and avoid buying from that unscrupulous manufacturer who has stolen your idea.


Nah I'll be niceand not disclose. As I said before, the prototypes will sit on my desk as a daily reminder to beware.  Actually I have two different models that got the axe. They stare at me angrily at the edge of my desk.


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## rdf (Oct 3, 2011)

David,
Thanks for your post. I appreciate you taking the time to do so. I've been a 4sevens purchaser/user for a long time, and recently got my brother interested in the new generation of LED flashlights. (He's still using the Arc AAA I gave him a long time ago.) He tried to sneak out with my Preon. I think you'll have another customer soon. 

Sorry to hear about the unscrupulous contractors/manufacturers. I'm with pjandyho in wishing that we knew who this was, solely so that I could do the only thing a consumer can ... vote with my wallet. However, I understand you taking the high road and not identifying them.

I am looking forward to seeing what you have "behind the curtain"; the advances that you mentioned in your first post in this thread.


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## jerrysimons (Oct 3, 2011)

pjandyho said:


> I don't know if it would be a good thing to share with us what idea was ripped off from you so that we could be made aware. I for one would keep a lookout and avoid buying from that unscrupulous manufacturer who has stolen your idea.



I still want to know, they can shove it you know where! I'll buy a Revo off CPFM for a premium before I buy a ripoff, contract infringed --- (want to avoid violating forum policies).

"Already I can tell you some of our prototype concepts leaked out because a contractor in asia couldn't keep their mouth shut. There are two lights that have been announced and suggested as a concept on cpf that were ripped off from our idea we prototyped over a year ago."

It seems to me from David's post that the announcement made on cpf concerning one or both of the light concepts that were subsequently jacked must have been seen by some one who remembers. I tried a search, but nothing found. Or is it that the concept was announced on cpf by the company who took the idea from the contractor who leaked it?
:rock: on 4Sevens!


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## flatline (Oct 3, 2011)

the.Mtn.Man said:


> I know David went above and beyond on several occasions doing special order runs like warm tints or titanium bodies, and even though there was a thread full of people insisting that they would support such a product, 4Sevens ended up losing money as the premium stock sat unwanted on their shelves.



Did they really have trouble selling them? I don't remember seeing them marked down before they all went out of stock.



> I don't blame them for doing what they need to in order to keep their doors open.



No argument there. They have to make the decisions that are right for them. If those decisions are right for us, too, then that's great!

--flatline


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## Beamhead (Oct 3, 2011)

4sevens said:


> Actually I have two different models that got the axe. They stare at me angrily at the edge of my desk.


I'll gladly buy those so they can give me the angry stare.


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## tony22 (Oct 3, 2011)

Well, after hearing from David I'm glad I was able to snag one of the last SS Preons in the U.S. etail channel. I got it today. Works great, has the standard S2 greenish tint, and the LED is just a hair off center. But I'm keeping it. It's already on my keychain.  

The problem of manufacturing control in China is alive and well in another high end field - audio. Many companies wanting to provide higher end audio equipment at more reasonable prices have been building their gear in China for a number of years now. Early on there were many reports in the high end rags about these guys getting very upset with unapproved parts substitutions, counterfeit parts, and proprietary designs being sold by their in-country partners. Many of these companies now have much more of a hands on presence in China to keep this kind of stuff from happening.

I'm not saying anything that hasn't been documented in the past few years by both Stereophile and The Absolute Sound, BTW. I further make no implications which could be misinterpreted as political or ethnic in any way, shape, or form. I feel sorry for 4Sevens having to have dealt with what sounds like problems along similar lines.


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## tricker (Oct 3, 2011)

4sevens said:


> Nah I'll be niceand not disclose. As I said before, the prototypes will sit on my desk as a daily reminder to beware.  Actually I have two different models that got the axe. They stare at me angrily at the edge of my desk.




If you produced it I would, and I imagine others would, buy it from you just because of the person you are and have been(which is reflected in your products and service).....rather than some of the fly by nights


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## beerwax (Oct 3, 2011)

thankyou 4sevens for bringing us the preon revo. i am sad to see it go. it is pretty much the benchmark for aaa lights - small bright well built and good looking. thankyou .


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## tsask (Oct 3, 2011)

Each day I appreciate my titanium preon Revo more and more. with a belt carried EDC such as the E03 or Quark 2AA warm, I sometimes forget how bright and special the titanium preon Revo is on my keys. Thanks for your posts David they shed some much needed light on the topic. Really sorry to hear about the prototypes that may never see the light of day.
As a long time 7777 customer known to you and the staff here in the US, I am looking forward to those exciting developments.
FYI the Quark RGB warm w/AA tube using 14500 is another one of my favorite 7777 lights.:naughty:


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## the.Mtn.Man (Oct 3, 2011)

flatline said:


> Did they really have trouble selling them? I don't remember seeing them marked down before they all went out of stock.


I mean in general. I know there have been a handful of occasions where 4Sevens lost money doing special runs which, as I understand it, is why they're more reluctant to do them now.

(Of course David is always free to correct anything I've said.)


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## Sno4Life (Oct 3, 2011)

David - please just tell us that the conflict isn't over a certain AAA light that is shooting for VERY high output? I've been following that thread very closely, and would hate to be disappointed...


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## gnef (Oct 3, 2011)

I'm glad David was able to clear up some things!

I wonder if he'd let me stop by the warehouse and see the lights he's talking about... 

All the best, and I look forward to the new lights coming out!


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## TyJo (Oct 3, 2011)

Sno4Life said:


> David - please just tell us that the conflict isn't over a certain AAA light that is shooting for VERY high output? I've been following that thread very closely, and would hate to be disappointed...


I was wondering the same, but I doubt it (that particular project seemed legit to me with a lot of time and effort involved, hopefully). I don't think David implied that the stolen ideas were for an AAA based light, so it could have been any type of light?


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## romteb (Oct 3, 2011)

I doubt the AAA you're talking about would be a product a mass manufacturer like 4sevens would market.


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## Sno4Life (Oct 3, 2011)

TyJo said:


> I was wondering the same, but I doubt it (that particular project seemed legit to me with a lot of time and effort involved, hopefully). I don't think David implied that the stolen ideas were for an AAA based light, so it could have been any type of light?


 
I'm going to assume it is not that project. I agree that too much work has gone into the development for it to be that - I'm kind of regretting bringing it up...


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## Vesper (Oct 3, 2011)

cave dave said:


> I think its pretty obvious the Klarus Mi10 is a ripoff of the Revo.



4sevens, Zebralight... Klarus seems a bit too familiar in many ways as far as I'm concerned.


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## Incidentalist (Oct 3, 2011)

jerrysimons said:


> Or is it that the concept was announced on cpf by the company who took the idea from the contractor who leaked it?



That's the way I interpreted it. The idea could have been leaked/sold by the manufacturer while making the prototype. David didn't really say if the other company has been able to bring them to market yet or just announced them. I'm curious if it's the same company that stole both ideas?

Since Klarus cloned the Revo, maybe their AAAA light (Mi X5) is one of the stolen concepts. After all, 4Sevens had a AAAA prototype at SHOT show.

I'd like to know as well, but agree with David that he would best be served to not 'out' the culprit(s).


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## applevision (Oct 3, 2011)

Disclaimer: No libel intended, this is simply a question. Double Disclaimer: I'm a HUGE fan of both 4Sevens AND Zebralight. But, I do see a TON of gorgeous innovation in Zebralight lately (that is getting my attention AND my dollars) that reminds me of the fervor I felt a few years back for 4Sevens... 

The question: Could it be Zebralight that has taken some of these amazing ideas? 

Rationale: I feel like the Q50 (4 AA cuboidal light that I am LUSTING for) and S6330 (a 3 x 18650 triple XM-L monster that blasts 2400 lumens), and even things like the S5310 (an upcoming 3 x AA light that is programmable and has a battery indicator) all have some real creative, maybe even groundbreaking ideas integrated into them... About 2 years ago, around the holidays, we were all gearing up for the 4Sevens S1200 (later renamed the S12) and we were giddy with the excitement of something so new! It's not to say that 4Sevens hasn't been as amazing since, but only to say that the run of new ideas seems less... though I also realize that they have been much more hushed about what they are thinking about.

Anyway, just a thought... 4Sevens, you have my fullest support and I have purchased a number of lights from you and carry my CR123 with me daily on my keychain and use my Preon 2 (warm) every single day as my examination light--keep up the great work!


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## TyJo (Oct 3, 2011)

There are a lot of possibilities out there for the stolen ideas, I don't think the speculation is going to stop either (I know I'd love to know).


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## bbb74 (Oct 3, 2011)

David, what about just telling us how many cells of what type and in what layout the stolen ideas were? 

I find myself babying my quark AA2 neutral white now, as I'm well aware I can't get another one!


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## Samy (Oct 4, 2011)

Damn... i was going to buy a stainless Revo for christmas...

cheers


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## gcbryan (Oct 4, 2011)

No one is going to name a company or product unless they want to get sued over something that they probably can't prove.

Involving Zebralight in this drama doesn't seem smart to me either. To be fair I would imagine that the company or companies involved probably have a slightly different story to tell as well.

Those who are the most passionate about the Revo already have one or several. How many more do you need?

I'm sure there will be plenty of great new products coming out soon by several different great companies.


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## jorn (Oct 4, 2011)

I think that all this speculation and finger pointing might help close this thread.


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## applevision (Oct 4, 2011)

jorn said:


> I think that all this speculation and finger pointing might help close this thread.


Agreed... you're right... but it sure is fun! And what a tantalizing subject--that David even waived in front of us! Okay, we'll stop now... but I'm not sure how much more can be said about the original point of this thread... the Revo seems really discontinued for now, but perhaps one day will live again... Mostly this thread serves as a demonstration of how much we love our flashlights and the companies who make them!


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## jorn (Oct 4, 2011)

True. David dropped a bomb with lot's of room for speculation. Speculation is fun. But i dont think it's funny for all the innocent manufacturers that might be pointed out as potential bad guys. Let's not play prosecutor, jury and judge at the same time.


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## jerrysimons (Oct 4, 2011)

What legal recourse can be pursued in situations such as the stolen concepts or the cloned Revo? I have always wondered how/if US patents can be enforced internationally. Is it just a risk a company takes to manufacture their products out of the states, that the manufacture just steals or sells the design? If patents can't be enforced how does one select a supplier?


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## Beacon of Light (Oct 4, 2011)

David thanks for your response. I will apologize for jumping on the theory bandwagon. 

It's good to hear at least it was beyond 47s control with the discontinuing the light as it was one of my favorites. I'm sure with that situation, you're not prohibited from making a different light similar to the ReVo using a different supplier though.

The comment about being oblivious about the customers may have been harsh, but I remember early on there was a lot of back and forth postings and then all of a sudden it stopped for whatever reason and I'm sure a lot was due to your endeavors with O-light which I'm sure is very time consuming. It would be great to have someone on staff that could fill that role so CPFers feel like they still have some connection to the company like it was before.

Again sorry for the harsh criticism and sorry for running with a theory there David. Glad you set the record straight and I'm sorry about intellectual property of 47s getting stolen in China. From what I hear this is a huge problem and another reason we should start manufacturing everything back in the US to avoid being held hostage by China etc.



4sevens said:


> Hi Everyone,
> 
> David here. I still do a lot of reading on cpf and cpfmp even though I don't post much. I've been following this thread since the beginning and it makes me sad to have to jump in here to clear all the posturing and incredible theories. If I don't somethings people assume it's the truth because of conjecture that has been hashed around, rehashed and hashed around some more. Unfortunately most of his cannot be farther from the truth.
> 
> ...


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## gnef (Oct 4, 2011)

jerrysimons said:


> What legal recourse can be pursued in situations such as the stolen concepts or the cloned Revo? I have always wondered how/if US patents can be enforced internationally. Is it just a risk a company takes to manufacture their products out of the states, that the manufacture just steals or sells the design? If patents can't be enforced how does one select a supplier?



I'm not sure there is much they can do without spending a lot of money for not much in return. We don't know if they patented the flashlight itself (seems like it could be difficult to do), or just the technology that went in to the flashlight (that seems more reasonable to me, but I'm not an IP law person), but patents either way are expensive to procure, and take time to acquire, perhaps even delaying a light, and making the light itself even more expensive.

It seems that David has tabled the lights because now it would appear to the public that he is copying another manufacturer's light, and that is drama he looks to be avoiding.

I think this also confirms his fears about talking about upcoming new lights on the forums. There is no practical way to steal from them if they don't give anything away online, and if they can get their factories in line, or find new factories they can trust, they should be good (which sounds difficult, and that they have been working hard to).

Also, I'm not sure if we all understand just how expensive the lights will be from him if they were to manufacture in the US. It would be great if he could though - this would open up government contracts that he currently may not be able to apply for since the lights are made overseas.

I personally feel that we need to look beyond ourselves as entitled customers - 4Sevens needs to do what is best for business in order to thrive in a deadly economy. The more that he can sell, especially beyond just us enthusiasts means that he will be around to continue to innovate, make new flashlights, and hopefully be able to make all the lights that he can. I took a tour of the warehouse a couple years ago, and I saw what he was doing then, and was able to see some of the fruits of that just recently.


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## the.Mtn.Man (Oct 4, 2011)

jerrysimons said:


> I have always wondered how/if US patents can be enforced internationally.


It depends on how cooperative the other country is. In the case of China, I sometimes wonder if companies are legally obligated to steal IP from American businesses. We're talking about a country that has a theme park that blatantly rips off Disneyland, right down to the mascots!


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## Beacon of Light (Oct 4, 2011)

there is a Chinese Mickey Mouse and Dumbo? Whoa...



the.Mtn.Man said:


> It depends on how cooperative the other country is. In the case of China, I sometimes wonder if companies are legally obligated to steal IP from American businesses. We're talking about a country that has a theme park that blatantly rips off Disneyland, right down to the mascots!


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## pjandyho (Oct 4, 2011)

Beacon of Light said:


> there is a Chinese Mickey Mouse and Dumbo? Whoa...



And they speak Chinese... :lolsign:


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## gcbryan (Oct 4, 2011)

jerrysimons said:


> What legal recourse can be pursued in situations such as the stolen concepts or the cloned Revo? I have always wondered how/if US patents can be enforced internationally. Is it just a risk a company takes to manufacture their products out of the states, that the manufacture just steals or sells the design? If patents can't be enforced how does one select a supplier?



It's just like any other business relationship. You have to check each other out and have a certain amount of trust. Ultimately, ripping off your clients will cost a manufacturer business and that will be enough of a reason to not do it. It's not like that sort of thing can't happen here in the US. Companies sue each other all the time for product infringement

Making everything in the US, while a nice thought, isn't the solution to every problem...the same things can happen here. Reduce the profit margin enough for a manufacturer in the US and QC will take a hit as well for example.

Regarding the patent system. That's not a universal truth. That's one system. If you play by that system great but there was a time when no one had such a system. There are trade-offs to that system like all others.


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## beerwax (Oct 4, 2011)

gcbryan said:


> It's not like that sort of thing can't happen here in the US. Companies sue each other all the time for product infringement


 

access to legal recourse is available in the US. not so sure about china.


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## the.Mtn.Man (Oct 4, 2011)

I think the most interesting comment in the so far is this:



4sevens said:


> I dare say some of the patents will change the way how people expect flashlights work. I believe some of the big players in the flashlight industry will be scrambling to license some of these ideas - because people will be wondering how can a flashlight have been made without such features.


I just can't imagine what that could be. Most people are happy with a light that's a simple click to turn on/off -- it's what people expect, it's what they like, it's what they're used to -- so what in the world is 4Sevens cooking up that will change all of that?

Hmmm...


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## gcbryan (Oct 5, 2011)

the.Mtn.Man said:


> I think the most interesting comment in the so far is this:
> 
> 
> I just can't imagine what that could be. Most people are happy with a light that's a simple click to turn on/off -- it's what people expect, it's what they like, it's what they're used to -- so what in the world is 4Sevens cooking up that will change all of that?
> ...


Hyperbole.


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## d1337 (Oct 5, 2011)

David, Thank you for letting us know what is going on. I can't wait to see what you have up your sleeve.


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## WarriorOfLight (Oct 5, 2011)

4sevens said:


> Already I can tell you some of our prototype concepts leaked out because a contractor in asia couldn't keep their mouth shut. There are two lights that have been announced and suggested as a concept on cpf that were ripped off from our idea we prototyped over a year ago. Sadly we probably won't be producing that light - the idea was flatly stolen from us. I'll just keep the prototypes on my desk as a perpetual reminder of what can happen especially with the unscrupulous unethical companies in china.
> 
> Sorry to unload a bit. I can stand getting stolen from by companies in china but I can't just stand by and watch cpf members whom I consider family whom I grow up with make hurtful and wrong guesses about 4sevens. I do hope my rant helps clarify some things. Sorry I meant to be brief when I started.


That is a problem of most companies doing business in China. I'm working in a large company that is one of the global players in an different business, and we experienced that the staff of our company worked at the chinese banch of our company (not sub contractor!) and the employees went to the other side of the street with USB sticks full of source code, contruction drawings,....

For me this problem is the price for cheap products. Our company "solved" the problem in the way the access to the worldwide company network is now very limited , and only trusted people having more access.

Maybe we all have to think about "value" and "loyality" and the price of the loyality. If you are fair paid the probability to be not loyal is much lower than if you are not fair payed...


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## tbenedict (Oct 5, 2011)

Good to hear from you David, sorry it is on such a sad note. I am surprised there haven't been more requests for picture of your desk 

Do you have a ballpark estimate (percent) the price would go up in made in the US?


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## kommanderskull (Oct 5, 2011)

David, it's obvious you have a loyal following here. I hope that the business aspect of this hobby doesn't bring you down. You have what we all wish for, a job playing with the toys we love. Just keep tinkering and innovating... and we will keep buying them.


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## Darvis (Oct 6, 2011)

Long time fan of 47s here and I have 4 of the SS ReVos (2 still NIB) that I sure am glad I bought when I did!! I think the ReVo is one of the best balanced lights yet in terms of output, features and size. I remember my runtime tests on low and the 48 hours (yes, 48) that it ran on low... and regulated. Unreal! 

I will never part with them and at least one is always with me, usually two. I REALLY hope the SS cool white version makes a re-appearance!

Anyway, a man's got to feed his family and it's been exciting to watch his business grow from this side of the forum...

Can't wait to see what's new and best of luck David!!


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## Burgess (Oct 6, 2011)

Darvis said:


> I remember my runtime tests on low and the 48 hours (yes, 48) that it ran on low... and regulated.




Please tell us . . . .


What *BATTERY* did you employ for this run-time test ? ? ?


:thanks:
_


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## Robocop (Oct 6, 2011)

Gentlemen David has made it very clear as to why the Revo is no more and has also made it clear he does not wish to speak of any others who have stolen ideas. Please stop the speculation as it will bring nothing but trouble. We do not need any witch hunts here and you should all respect his decision to simply leave it alone......this is how drama starts so again forget the speculation and keep this discussion on topic.

I will add that I have 3 of the Revos and one is stainless steel that I enjoy the most. Nice to know I was able to grab a few before they were gone. Good news is two were gifts from my g/f last year and so I paid nothing for them.....liked them so much I bought a third spare for a shelf queen.

I hate to see them go also however I do believe David will have some other goodies for us all to choose from shortly. This is a good time to be a flashaholic as we have so much to choose from these days.


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## Flying Turtle (Oct 6, 2011)

I'm sorry I missed one of these. Almost ordered a couple times. Can't wait to see David's new stuff.

Geoff


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## ElectronGuru (Oct 6, 2011)

tbenedict said:


> Do you have a ballpark estimate (percent) the price would go up in made in the US?



Lights produced in China provide more than 200% margin, even while selling for half the price of comparable US produced lights. A hypothetical light that is *$50* retail would be $20 to produce there and yield $30 in margin. So $30 profit per light, to handle all operational and capital costs. Figure 400% (or more) production cost in the US, so $80. Adding the same $30 margin to the 80 gives a retail of *$110* with a margin of 27%. So the same $30 profit per light for operations, but with higher capital costs (larger initial investment). To even approach the same 200% margin (covering operational and capital costs), the retail would need to be over *$160*. 

So figure 2-3x for any given price point.


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## flatline (Oct 6, 2011)

ElectronGuru said:


> Lights produced in China provide more than 200% margin, even while selling for half the price of comparable US produced lights. A hypothetical light that is *$50* retail would be $20 to produce there and yield $30 in margin. So $30 profit per light, to handle all operational and capital costs. Figure 400% (or more) production cost in the US, so $80. Adding the same $30 margin to the 80 gives a retail of *$110* with a margin of 27%. So the same $30 profit per light for operations, but with higher capital costs (larger initial investment). To even approach the same 200% margin (covering operational and capital costs), the retail would need to be over *$160*.
> 
> So figure 2-3x for any given price point.



Hmm...so if my HDS Clicky is made in the USA and cost me $140, in theory there could be a comparable Chinese made light for $50-$70?

--flatline


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## ElectronGuru (Oct 7, 2011)

flatline said:


> Hmm...so if my HDS Clicky is made in the USA and cost me $140, in theory there could be a comparable Chinese made light for $50-$70?



There's significant fudge room with margin in either example (up to any company), and Henry hasn't posted his minimum margin as 47 has, but yeah. Henry could contract with a manufacturer in China, cut the retail in half and make more per light - at the same time. 

He would then be competing more on price, with less market demand for the 'feature and construction' approach used now (customers who pay more, expect more). But in theory, it would depend mostly on how good a shop he used. NovaTac makes a convenient case study on how that might go.


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## tbenedict (Oct 7, 2011)

Thanks for the explanation. That explains why unemployment is so high..


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## regulator (Oct 7, 2011)

Very disappointing - The SS Revo is one of my favorite lights and I think one of the best AAA available. 

I was planning on purchasing another since I almost lost mine (dropped outside in a gravel parking lot for over a week!). I was waiting for a better LED to be available than the S2 that had many reports of a slight green tint. Mine is the R2 with a great near neutral tint.

Besides its great functionality, it is a COOL looking little gem of a light.


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## 4sevens (Oct 14, 2011)

gnef said:


> I'm glad David was able to clear up some things!
> I wonder if he'd let me stop by the warehouse and see the lights he's talking about...
> All the best, and I look forward to the new lights coming out!


My schedule is usually very packed but if you would like a quick tour of our company, setup an appointment I'll show you around as well as some protos on my desk.

In fact, I'll share a few pictures - now you'll know the two companies who someone obtained our ideas and designs. We've been working on this for over a year. The project is definitely canned because of those two already marketing their wares 











Please don't ask any more about this light since it's not going to be produced. 
We need to focus our energy on other projects more worthy of our time.

-David


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## houtex (Oct 14, 2011)

I have dreamed of, drawn, and wished for a light just like that for some time now. 

Side by 2 x 18650, dual p60 type with different reflectors, ability to run 1 or both sides at a time,and the button right where it is at. Damn.............


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## tx101 (Oct 14, 2011)

WTF ...... :shakehead :shakehead :shakehead


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## Harry999 (Oct 14, 2011)

I was thinking of buying several models from 'that company'. It will not happen now. I hate seeing people profit by dishonesty. David these things always come back. Wishing you the best.


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## yowzer (Oct 14, 2011)

4sevens said:


>



I've never seen one with one diffused beam, one smo reflector. It's a nifty and useful idea. Cancelling this light because other companies are putting out ones that look somewhat similar is a mistake, imho. Especially when it's not a new idea to put two reflectors in one head -- Foxfury's been making this style of light for a lot longer than those other companies you're talking about. And didn't Surefire do something similar once?

If every maker cancelled lights because some other company rushes out one with similar looks but lacking some nice and/or unique distinguishing features (Two distinct beam patterns, what looks like a compact side-by-side 2 battery arrangement, side clicky!)... we'd have hardly any lights to choose from. I know you said it's a dead project at this point, but, seriously, I can't be the only person who wishes you'd reconsider. I'd buy it in a heartbeat as long as it has a decent UI.


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## edpmis02 (Oct 14, 2011)

edpmis02 said:


> I have a shiny new SS LD01. I got scared off by the green S2 reports during the SS REVO clearance. I have a neutral Preon MINI AA and would love more. but I am not holding my breath.. again.. it is sad!




I want to take a moment to say Thank You to 4Sevens for releasing some neutral white models. I ordered a NW Quark AA-2. 

In the beginning, I started looking at lights at Target with a few Garrety and then Maglite. After I found this forum, I got then my first Fenix L0D, then got use to moonlight mode.. Now PWM flickering, bad color and a lack of low modes bother me. I didn't indent to sound like a brat, but you have my only source of lights since my Target days in 2006. Not sure I will ever need a 2000 lumen monster.. but when a AA neutral white version with moonlight mode is released. I will buy one!

PS.. My SS LD01 is more green than I care for. Looks great on my keychain.. what a shame.. :-(


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## the.Mtn.Man (Oct 14, 2011)

yowzer said:


> Cancelling this light because other companies are putting out ones that look somewhat similar is a mistake, imho.


When you're trying to establish yourself as an innovator, you don't want to look like you're copying another company's products, even if they did steal the idea from you in the first place.


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## 4sevens (Oct 14, 2011)

the.Mtn.Man said:


> When you're trying to establish yourself as an innovator, you don't want to look like you're copying another company's products, even if they did steal the idea from you in the first place.


+1 You're a man after my own heart! I couldn't have said it better - it actually sounds better coming from someone else 

-David


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## yowzer (Oct 15, 2011)

the.Mtn.Man said:


> When you're trying to establish yourself as an innovator, you don't want to look like you're copying another company's products, even if they did steal the idea from you in the first place.


The side-by-side emitter/bulb form factor predates the existence of 4sevens as a flashlight maker, possibly 4sevens as a flashlight seller, and none of the current examples being sold do some of the things it looks like that prototype would have done. Isn't that enough innovation right there?


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## TyJo (Oct 15, 2011)

yowzer said:


> The side-by-side emitter/bulb form factor predates the existence of 4sevens as a flashlight maker, possibly 4sevens as a flashlight seller, and none of the current examples being sold do some of the things it looks like that prototype would have done. Isn't that enough innovation right there?


That's subjective. As soon as I saw the photo in this thread I remembered the banner add from another manufacturer. I understand they are likely very different, and I would only consider the 4sevens product, but that type of association is not good for marketing/releasing a new product. This type of light didn't appeal to me anyhow, and I have never had an interest in this other manufacturer.


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## 4sevens (Oct 15, 2011)

There are lots more that I didn't disclose - various parts inside the light are identical, certain mechanical dimensions and latching mechanisms were ripped off from our classified samples. Needless to say we've fired some of our machine shop suppliers.


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## mhphoto (Oct 26, 2011)

I'm not sure of what two manufacturers stole the double LED lights. Was one Klarus?


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## coolperl (Oct 27, 2011)

Yep, one is Klarus the other is Skilhunt. Klarus copied Revo with their "mi10" model, Skilhunt copied the two head prototype with their Night Owl model, that David showed on pictures. At least, that's what I understood from those enigmatic statements.

Maybe the two-reflectored model Klarus has, was also inspired by David's prototye, but the battery tube is different. Klarus also have models that are identical to Jetbeam BC and BA series. On the other hand, Jetbeam BA40 is almost identical to Fenix LD40. This whole "design originality" thing is very confusing with those small chinese manufacturers (not talking about Fenix, since they always had their own unique designs).


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## 4sevens (Oct 27, 2011)

coolperl said:


> (not talking about Fenix, since they always had their own unique designs).


This point is not true. Remember they made a near duplicate of the nitecore ez aa.


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## coolperl (Oct 27, 2011)

OK you're right. LD15 looks too similiar to EZ AA. But there're not much nuances in such a simple twisty light to talk about stealing ideas. Both EZ AA and LD15 share brass pill and similiar knurling pattern - these are not "unique" design features. The most important is UI, which in case these two lights is completely different. And frankly, UI of LD15 sucks...


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## kreisler (Nov 8, 2011)

coolperl said:


> Yep, one is Klarus the other is Skilhunt. Klarus copied Revo with their "mi10" model, Skilhunt copied the two head prototype with their Night Owl model, that David showed on pictures. At least, that's what





Incidentalist said:


> Since Klarus cloned the Revo, maybe their AAAA light (Mi X5) is one of the stolen concepts. After all, 4Sevens had a AAAA prototype at SHOT show.


There's no clear statement or confirmation regarding the Revo vs. Klarus Mi10 matter from part of David's.


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## Incidentalist (Nov 9, 2011)

4sevens said:


> Yes it is but the ideas that were ripped off were from lights that have not been released yet - and may never be.



The statement above from David shows that he alleges that the Klarus Mi10 is indeed a ripoff of their Revo design. Assuming that is true, is it too much of a logical leap to think that a company that straight up copies anothers' design is above paying for prototype designs?


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## coolperl (Nov 9, 2011)

In my post #97, I used the names: Klarus and Skilhunt ...I used also flashlights model names. 
In reply, David said, that only one statement, I wrote, wasn't true (about Fenix). Which means all others were true. For me it's a clear statement and confirmation from David.

As far as I understand, Klarus was manufacturing Revo, that's why they have an access to all parts, plans, specifications, etc. Other OEM companies didn't have such access, so couldn't make such copy. With specifications, parts, suppliers (circuit, reflector, etc.) making such light is not an engineering challenge. That's why they could do it so fast. However, when someone has to invent this from beginning, make prototypes, test them, make sketches, drawings, find component suppliers, etc., it takes some time.


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## Nazgul9 (Nov 21, 2011)

Longtime watcher of these forums, first time poster. Very sorry to see the Revo SS gone from your lineup David, I really enjoy mine and was going to buy one today for my wife. Guess I'll just have to stock up on some Preons at the holiday price instead. 

I'm sorry to hear about the problems with some of your overseas suppliers, it must be very discouraging to have your hard work stolen from you. I really appreciate the effort you have put into making cutting edge and affordable flashlights, and I am sure many others feel the same way. I might also add that your prototype there looks a lot cooler than the shiny knockoff Skilhunt made! :sick2:


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## kreisler (Nov 22, 2011)

coolperl said:


> As far as I understand, Klarus was manufacturing Revo, that's why they have an access to all parts, plans, specifications, etc. Other OEM companies didn't have such access, so couldn't make such copy.


This observation makes sense and sounds logical to me.


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## purelite (Nov 22, 2011)

*Political editorial comments deleted.*


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## Robocop (Nov 23, 2011)

I believe an adult discussion of this is possible however it is usually hard for some to do so without adding unecessary comments or hostility. The entire purpose of this forum is for members to share information and simply enjoy the topics. If done correctly some may actually see anothers point of view and opinions can change.....if done wrongly feelings get hurt and it abuses the purpose of our forum here.

Keep this on topic of the discontinued product as I am sure many of us are curious. With David himself involved we may all learn something however with the unecessary political undertones added by some it will be closed and none of us benefit.

Adults can make a point without hostility or frustration and again worded correctly you may be able to actually get others to see your point. If this turns into a war of opinions it will be closed quickly as it does no good at all for our group. We all have our opinions however turning this thread into a place for many to vent will do nothing other than cause ill feelings.

This could be an interesting thread and as such will be allowed to move forward. Lets not allow this to spin off towards a political debate as we all know the trouble that would cause the forum.


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## Samy (Nov 23, 2011)

Does anyone have any idea when/if 4Sevens will be releasing a product to replace the Preon Revo?

Cheers


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## roadkill1109 (Aug 28, 2012)

Bump!

Any new updates on the 4Sevens front? 

I mean besides the old lights with newer LED's, anything new?


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## the.Mtn.Man (Aug 29, 2012)

I do wonder about 4Sevens' earlier bold promises of revolutionizing the flashlight industry with "patents [that] will change the way how people expect flashlights [to] work".


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## tsask (Aug 29, 2012)

the.Mtn.Man said:


> I do wonder about 4Sevens' earlier bold promises of revolutionizing the flashlight industry with "patents [that] will change the way how people expect flashlights [to] work".



I remember that quote, as well as "the lights that were pulled from production because the word leaked out".


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## shelm (Aug 29, 2012)

roadkill1109 said:


> I mean besides the old lights with newer LED's, anything new?



Something interesting i have been observing. LED updates in popular models is quite common, see for example Fenix LD01, LD20 in the past and now the U2 update in Fenix TK35. Eagletac does it all the time in P20A2, T20C2. See also Xeno E03 T6 CW, now U2 CW. And at the same time, Fenix and Eagtac discontinue the older LED product releases: gone from their official website! Dealers with older Fenix and Eagtac stock would still sell LD01's, LD20's, TK35's, P20A2's, and T20C2's off the shelf because it is old stock. The latest production version would continue to have the same old price. NO MARK UP!

The difference is:

Fenix and ET dealers mark these old products down,
whereas 4Sevens still keeps the old XP-G's (Preon P1, P2) on their website listed in the official current catalog with the old price (NO MARK DOWN!), and add the new XP-G2's (Preon P1, P2) to the website with a new, 5$ higher price.

"anything new?" youre asking? .. yeah, the price is new!! Quark X AA² Tactical was 69,00US$ a few months back, and now it's 78,00US$. identical model. just the printed logo and retail packaging design is different (rebranded).

well well. nice touch, 4sevens!!


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## berry580 (Aug 29, 2012)

Apple borrowed (took, steal, however you want to call it) designs from Xerox, Microsoft did the same to Apple and now Samsung is doing that to Apple.

Bottom-line. If something valuable can be taken away feel of charge, it will happen. Nothing confusing there, regardless it is small Chinese companies or large US corporations.



coolperl said:


> This whole "design originality" thing is very confusing with those small chinese manufacturers (not talking about Fenix, since they always had their own unique designs).


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## mossyoak (Aug 29, 2012)

shelm said:


> Something interesting i have been observing. LED updates in popular models is quite common, see for example Fenix LD01, LD20 in the past and now the U2 update in Fenix TK35. Eagletac does it all the time in P20A2, T20C2. See also Xeno E03 T6 CW, now U2 CW. And at the same time, Fenix and Eagtac discontinue the older LED product releases: gone from their official website! Dealers with older Fenix and Eagtac stock would still sell LD01's, LD20's, TK35's, P20A2's, and T20C2's off the shelf because it is old stock. The latest production version would continue to have the same old price. NO MARK UP!
> 
> The difference is:
> 
> ...



Shelm, 
Honestly if you said that the sky is blue, I would feel compelled to go outside and check. 

The XPG R5 lights are marked down on foursevens.com, apparently you didnt even bother to check before posting your lies this time. 

Also they didnt add $5 to the new XPG2's, that price change was done months ago, and its their first as a company. Most companies raise their pricing once a year, this is FourSevens first price change in the 4+ years theyve been around.


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## shelm (Aug 29, 2012)

mossyoak said:


> Also they didnt add $5 to the new XPG2's, that price change was done months ago, and its their first as a company. Most companies raise their pricing once a year, this is FourSevens first price change in the 4+ years theyve been around.



the identical model Quark (X aa2 tactical) costs a whopping 78 bucks now, they were 69 bucks before. that aint lie.


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## mossyoak (Aug 29, 2012)

shelm said:


> the identical model Quark (X aa2 tactical) costs a whopping 78 bucks now, they were 69 bucks before. that aint lie.



Its been that way for months, and they discounted the older XPG r5 leds,


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## It01Firefox (Aug 29, 2012)

shelm said:


> the identical model Quark (X aa2 tactical) costs a whopping 78 bucks now, they were 69 bucks before. that aint lie.



So what? Everything is getting more expensive, it's called inflation.


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## shelm (Aug 29, 2012)

mossyoak said:


> The XPG R5 lights are marked down on foursevens.com, apparently you didnt even bother to check before posting your lies this time.



In 2011, Preon 2 Satin Titanium Black Edition (XPG R5) was 49.00$, now it's 49.00$. The XPG2 is 57.00$
looks like i bothered to check now.

:nana:


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## pjandyho (Aug 29, 2012)

shelm said:


> the identical model Quark (X aa2 tactical) costs a whopping 78 bucks now, they were 69 bucks before. that aint lie.





mossyoak said:


> Its been that way for months, and they discounted the older XPG r5 leds,



Yes it is indeed $69 when I ordered it. After CPFer's discount it came out to $63.48 on my order form. Mine is the neutral white Quark X AA2 Tactical. But read below,



It01Firefox said:


> So what? Everything is getting more expensive, it's called inflation.



Ain't this the truth?


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## reppans (Aug 29, 2012)

shelm said:


> well well. nice touch, 4sevens!!



Don't know about you, but I'm more than willing to pay a few extra bucks for the comfort in knowing that the FourSevens warranty goes out a lot longer than the other Asian brands and have good people backing it up from US headquarters. Most of the other Asian lights I buy assuming they will be throw-aways if they ever have a problem (like my ZL already out of warranty), or want it shipped back to Asia, if still under the brief warranties.

And yes, I have dealt with FourSevens CS several times (not for light failures as all mine have been working perfectly), and have found them to be nothing other than stellar.


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## edpmis02 (Aug 29, 2012)

pjandyho said:


> _the identical model Quark (X aa2 tactical) costs a whopping 78 bucks now, they were 69 bucks before._




I grabbed several models for $40-$50 during the rebranding liquidation.


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## the.Mtn.Man (Aug 29, 2012)

shelm said:


> In 2011, Preon 2 Satin Titanium Black Edition (XPG R5) was 49.00$, now it's 49.00$. The XPG2 is 57.00$


So it's cheaper relative to the new lights.


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## fyrstormer (Aug 29, 2012)

4sevens said:


> There are lots more that I didn't disclose - various parts inside the light are identical, certain mechanical dimensions and latching mechanisms were ripped off from our classified samples. Needless to say we've fired some of our machine shop suppliers.


Did you make them sign a Non-Disclosure Agreement and a Non-Competition Agreement prior to doing business with them? That's standard practice in the software world, where intellectual property is the _only_ kind of property, and people would go bankrupt without it.


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## anethema (Aug 29, 2012)

I don't think the branding indicates that. I think they are just big enough that they are trying to put a more mature face on the company.

That being said the new flashlight names are AWFUL. I couldn't remember a single model if my life depended on it. They are similar sounding, confusing, and say nothing about the product. Except the X for XML sometimes.

Love the company though.


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## jasonck08 (Aug 29, 2012)

fyrstormer said:


> Did you make them sign a Non-Disclosure Agreement and a Non-Competition Agreement prior to doing business with them? That's standard practice in the software world, where intellectual property is the _only_ kind of property, and people would go bankrupt without it.



We gotta remember its China they are dealing with. IP isn't very well protected over there... Even if they did sign such agreements, going after them legally overseas would be nearly impossible for a small company.


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## fyrstormer (Aug 30, 2012)

jasonck08 said:


> We gotta remember its China they are dealing with. IP isn't very well protected over there... Even if they did sign such agreements, going after them legally overseas would be nearly impossible for a small company.


True, to a point. You can still use those contracts to have the company's work banned from import into the USA and any country that values its trade relationship with the USA.


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## the.Mtn.Man (Aug 30, 2012)

jasonck08 said:


> We gotta remember its China they are dealing with. IP isn't very well protected over there... Even if they did sign such agreements, going after them legally overseas would be nearly impossible for a small company.


There's an amusement park in Bejing called Shijingshan Amusement Park which bore a very strong resemblance to Disneyland, including carbon copies of iconic mascots like Mickey Mouse and Donald Duck as well as a number of other copyrighted characters including Bugs Bunny and Hello Kitty. They have supposedly toned down some of the more blatant infringements after controversy generated by international media exposure, but I can't find anything definitive to that end.

Now if company like Disney is powerless to protect their IP in China, what chance do you think a small privately owned company like 4Sevens has?


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## Andrewlammers (May 10, 2013)

Is anyone aware of a flashlight with similar properties to the Preon Revo? I managed to ruin mine... pretty stupid on my part, and now I discover that the light was discontinued years ago. Argh!

Hoping to find something of similar size, quality, adjustable illumination, maximum brightness somewhere close to 82 lumens or thereabouts, and with a ring that can attach to a key ring. Any suggestions?


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## Dubois (May 10, 2013)

Andrewlammers said:


> Is anyone aware of a flashlight with similar properties to the Preon Revo? I managed to ruin mine... pretty stupid on my part, and now I discover that the light was discontinued years ago. Argh!
> 
> Hoping to find something of similar size, quality, adjustable illumination, maximum brightness somewhere close to 82 lumens or thereabouts, and with a ring that can attach to a key ring. Any suggestions?



Might be a good idea to read through this thread. Klarus MiX6.


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## bla2000 (May 11, 2013)

Andrewlammers said:


> I managed to ruin mine... pretty stupid on my part



Are you sure that it is ruined? 

Perhaps the leaf spring at the bottom of the tailcap has been compressed and can be repaired. Have you tested whether the light works without the tail? 

HKJ's "Simple guide to using a DMM" in the section "Other Types of Light" shows how. Or if you don't have a DMM then use a paperclip to complete the circuit. 

If your light works without the tail then you need to pop the spring out of the bottom of the tail and bend the part higher. This is how the spring should look.


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## Xe54 (Nov 20, 2013)

I've been spending long hours for several nights scouring the marketplace for AAA lights, preparing for a new buying binge ;-)

I'm glad I searched for the reason that the Revo was axed, but now I'm thoroughly discouraged. 

My single Revo had the Luxeon Rebel. I'm fond of the Rebel series for reasons I may go into later in a dedicated post (let's just say I've had it with cool white Cree LEDs and won't be buying ANY more lights with them!) Point being that my Revo has the most perfect tint out of 4 AAA lights I own.

I found the Klarus Mi10, and put it on my list of considerations, but of course it's not available in a neutral, nor are nearly any other AAA lights except for the Peak Eiger.

I must say that I am disappointed that Foursevens hardly ever offers neutral white tint options on their lights anymore, since most of the 47s lights I own I bought specifically because they had special LED options (except for the few Cree cool whites--which all have sucky green tints.)

For example, I'd click "buy now" immediately if the Quark Turbo QB2L-X with Burst Mode were offered in neutral, as my original Quark turbo has. But alas, I won't be buying it if it's cool white :-(

But I do understand that doing business is horribly difficult, so I sympathize with the difficulties that 47s has faced.

The conclusion of all of this is now I'm tagging some of my bookmarks with qualifiers such as "this co. may have stolen designs from another co.--don't do business with them." But this is very frustrating and makes the experience of collecting flashlights take on a sad tone this evening.

Well, I suppose I may be buying a Peak Eiger... But first I need to get some sleep.


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## Bill S. (Nov 20, 2013)

Dubois said:


> Might be a good idea to read through this thread. Klarus MiX6.



Yes!

Klarus MiX6 has been riding on my keychain for quite a while and I absolutely love it. There's even a gold model.


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## derfyled (Nov 20, 2013)

Xe54 said:


> My single Revo had the Luxeon Rebel.



Unless yours was moded, the Revo has never been manufactured with a Rebel... (at least, as far as I know...). It was either an XP-E or XP-G.


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## AnthonyMcEwen2014 (Nov 20, 2013)

Just read whole thread, very interesting! Gonna have to cheack out for sevens now, I assumed it was just another company like any other Chinese company, clearly I am very wrong, for starters there not even Chinese! , and David seems like a really legit bloke!:thumbsup:


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## regulator (Nov 20, 2013)

derfyled said:


> Unless yours was moded, the Revo has never been manufactured with a Rebel... (at least, as far as I know...). It was either an XP-E or XP-G.



That is correct. The Revo came with either a Cree XPE or XPG. I have my SS Revo with Cree XPE and agree it has a very nice white tint.

I recently purchases a Fenix AAA E05 that surprisingly has become a top contender for the EDC role. It is using a Cree XPE-2 and has an even nicer creamy white tint than the Revo. I passed on this light thinking it was a crude single mode light for a long time. But the beam, tint, and output (30+ lumens) are fantastic for general tasks and the single mode is actually welcome. It's easier to turn on one handed than the Revo. I like this light a lot and the price is fantastic.


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## wjv (Nov 21, 2013)

4sevens said:


> Nah I'll be niceand not disclose. As I said before, the prototypes will sit on my desk as a daily reminder to beware.  Actually I have two different models that got the axe. They stare at me angrily at the edge of my desk.



Too bad we aren't still "first to invent" instead of "first to file" as I'm sure you have sufficient documented history to prove inventor-ship. Then it would have been easy to swear to the prior inventor-ship, get rights granted, and then sue the *******s for triple damages. . . 

If you have sufficient documented history of your R&D, or if they violated an NDA, you still could go after them, as even under first to file you can regain patent rights if you can prove theft or breach of contract by the parties.


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## wjv (Nov 21, 2013)

jasonck08 said:


> We gotta remember its China they are dealing with. IP isn't very well protected over there... Even if they did sign such agreements, going after them legally overseas would be nearly impossible for a small company.



But he could get a court to prohibit them from importing the lights in to the USA.


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## pjandyho (Nov 21, 2013)

wjv said:


> Too bad we aren't still "first to invent" instead of "first to file" as I'm sure you have sufficient documented history to prove inventor-ship. Then it would have been easy to swear to the prior inventor-ship, get rights granted, and then sue the *******s for triple damages. . .
> 
> If you have sufficient documented history of your R&D, or if they violated an NDA, you still could go after them, as even under first to file you can regain patent rights if you can prove theft or breach of contract by the parties.





wjv said:


> But he could get a court to prohibit them from importing the lights in to the USA.


As the saying goes, easier said than done. I don't know much about the legal proceedings in the US, but I am pretty sure things are not as easy as it seems. The costs and time involved in proceeding with a law suit like this could probably zap any small time business into closure. Moreover, you are talking about suing a company in China? Come on, it is akin to doing a wild goose chase. China don't really give a hoot about your intellectual property rights, especially if the rights which was violated are not from their own homeland. You can try to bar them from the States and they could always rebrand their products. How much money, time and energy do you think FourSevens have to continue in its claim of rights?


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## the.Mtn.Man (Nov 21, 2013)

Xe54 said:


> I must say that I am disappointed that Foursevens hardly ever offers neutral white tint options on their lights anymore...


Unfortunately, it seems that those of us who prefer neutral/warm tints are an unprofitable minority. Every time FourSevens offered a special run, they would end up with unsold stock collecting dust on their shelves, so they don't offer them any more.


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## the.Mtn.Man (Nov 21, 2013)

wjv said:


> Too bad we aren't still "first to invent" instead of "first to file" as I'm sure you have sufficient documented history to prove inventor-ship. Then it would have been easy to swear to the prior inventor-ship, get rights granted, and then sue the *******s for triple damages. . .
> 
> If you have sufficient documented history of your R&D, or if they violated an NDA, you still could go after them, as even under first to file you can regain patent rights if you can prove theft or breach of contract by the parties.


Successfully suing a Chinese manufacturer, let alone collecting a settlement, is virtually impossible.


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## pjandyho (Nov 21, 2013)

the.Mtn.Man said:


> Unfortunately, it seems that those of us who prefer neutral/warm tints are an unprofitable minority. Every time FourSevens offered a special run, they would end up with unsold stock collecting dust on their shelves, so they don't offer them any more.


I am not so sure how bad the situation is for FourSevens, but from what I see and experienced for myself with FourSevens, their neutral and warm tint selections are one of the worst tints available in the market. Only the very first batch of neutral tints made using the Q3 5B range are acceptable. Even their high CRI variants fall short of offerings offered by other brands. Could this be the reason for the poor sales? Because people like myself complained about it? I don't see many other manufacturers complain about poor sales.


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## the.Mtn.Man (Nov 21, 2013)

I don't know. I've bought one neutral tint from them several years ago which started my love affair with warmer tinted LEDs, but every time they've offered anything since, I either didn't have the money or the interest in buying a new light -- although I would have been all over a high CRI ReVO. Still carry my cool white variant every day as my backup light.


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## MojaveMoon07 (Nov 21, 2013)

> *[This was posted Sep 16, 2013 in this thread (link)]*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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