# Fenix P1D-CE comparison Review



## UnknownVT (Dec 5, 2006)

*STOP PRESS... RUSH, RUSH, RUSH!!!......*

*Fenix P1D-CE *comparison review

Part 1 -

Probably one of the most talked about and speculated flashlights -

I am extremely grateful to 4sevens (http://Fenix-Store.com) for the temporary loan of this Fenix P1D-CE......
and yes, he did reassure me I was NOT depriving anyone of theirs.....

I went to his place of business where I found them unpacking cartons full of P1D's CE's, black and natural... that was about 3:40PM Eastern - it is now 6:07pm..... what can I say - I'm a flashaholic......

Packaging -





comes with standard ballistic nylon holster, spare O-ring, and that swivel clip keyring, as well as instructions.......

The only sign that this is a P1D-*CE* from the outside of the packet is the label on the back 








Sizes -





The other way to tell it's a P1D-CE is to look at the head -





OK, ok - what's it like?...... 
first let's look at the High brightness level on regular Primary CR123A (NON-rechargeable)

vs. Fenix P1 both on primary CR123A







what we're hoping for - the P1D-CE is noticably brighter on High than the already sterling P1....

High vs. the Cree XR-E in Fenix L1/2T mod also on High - that I've been calling a "preview" of the P1D-CE - both on primary CR123A - 
so was I right?







very similar - but you'd be pleased know I think the P1D is slightly brighter.....
(and yes, I was right...






)

Now to the Medium (default level) - again using regular primary CR123A -

Medium vs. Fenix P1 both on primary CR123A







huh? - this is Medium? (yes, I double-checked) it's brighter than the Fenix P1!!!

Medium vs. the Cree XR-E in Fenix L1/2T mod on *Low* - both on primary CR123A 







yes, the Medium for the P1D-CE is noticably brighter than the Cree XR-E mod L1T/L2T on Low.... this is _*quite*_ _*some*_ medium level......

Low level using primary CR123A -

Low vs. Fenix P1 both on primary CR123A







at last as one would expect the low is dimmer than the P1.....but it is not that dim.

Low vs. the Cree XR-E in Fenix L1/2T mod on *Low* - both on primary CR123A 







they are about the same, maybe a bit dimmer - and I thought the Low on the Cree XR-R mod L1T was bright......

Ringiness in the beam - yes, there is some especially if the light is held close to a plain surface - many lights show this kind of problem when held close....

One can just see some of this ringiness in the beamshots - if you didn't notice until I mentioned it - then it's probably not going to bother you - 
but yes, I can see it - even when at a distance - however it's almost like a feeling that there's a kind of dark halo round the hotspot - BUT again in all praciticality I don't really notice it.

So yes, it's there, and IMHO it's not a problem - but I understand if YMMV.....

...can I go to the bathroom now?

Part 2 - using 3.7V Li-Ion *Rechargeable* RCR123 - in Post #*40*

(standardized) *Outdoors Beamshot -* in Post #*92* 

Color removed/Desaturated (standardized) *Outdoors Beamshot -* in Post #*93* 
so lights can be directly compared without any color/tint.

*Tested Runtimes* by chevofreak - Fenix P1D CE runtimes (link)

*Indoors Practical beamshot* in Post #*100* on page 4

Color removed/Desaturated *Indoors Practical beamshots* in Post #*103* on page 4

Direct side-by-side comparison with *xenon/lithium lights*
SureFire 9P 3xCR123 and Streamlight Scorpion 2xCR123 in Post #*105* on page 4


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## copiertech (Dec 5, 2006)

Have you tried it with rechargeables? Thanks for a great review btw.


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## frisco (Dec 5, 2006)

Interesting!!!!

Nice review.... Thanks!

frisco


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## bray (Dec 5, 2006)

cool man seems as good as i hoped


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## UnknownVT (Dec 5, 2006)

*copiertec* wrote: _"Have you tried it with rechargeables?"_ 

Not even going to give me a chance to go to the bathroom huh?





Yes, that is going to be part 2.

But in the meantime -
it does work fine with a 3.7V Li-Ion rechargeable RCR123 (UNprotected) -

eye-balling only - 
it's ungodly bright - 
about the same as the Cree XR-E in Fenix L1/2T also on rechargeable.
all 3 levels seem to be the same ie: just bright - no medium or low - 
strobe and SOS still work.


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## copiertech (Dec 5, 2006)

Whoops sorry! didn`t meen to disturb your output. Enjoy your number 2 before proceeding with part 2 :laughing:


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## EngrPaul (Dec 5, 2006)

On the package, is that picture from space a real beamshot?


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## cave dave (Dec 5, 2006)

Couple questions,

Do the lower levels use PWM?

Also what is the flash rate of the Flash level?


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## Whitelitee (Dec 5, 2006)

How bright is the strobe, does it blink at full brightness?


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## LowBat (Dec 5, 2006)

I'm amazed how Fenix can print instructions and packaging so fast, let alone take a just released LED and build a production flashlight around it in under two months.


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## UnknownVT (Dec 5, 2006)

*cave dave* wrote: _"Do the lower levels use PWM?_
_Also what is the flash rate of the Flash level?"_

I have been corrected before about PWM - so let me say at Medium (default) and Low levels using primary CR123A I canNOT see any hint of any pulsing - and I've done things like wave my open hand, a pencil and even a comb in front of the light to try to see any hint of pulsing - and I cannot.

The strobing is fast - enough to grab attention - 
or be annoying - depending on your point of view - 
it was fast enough so would definitely be called "strobing" - 
I could not count accurately enough - but roughly it did about 10 on/offs in about 1.56secs - so maybe about 6-7 pulses per second?

It looked like it was at the full brightness (high) when on strobe mode.

SOS seemed slow to me - but it would be like someone actually having to switch a flashlight on and off to signal. 

_It went through the SOS just once and stopped. _
_*EDIT* - _That part about stopping is _*WRONG -*_
thanks to Lexina for pointing this out in Post #*18* below -
there is a *10 sec PAUSE* before the SOS *repeats* itself.


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## x2x3x2 (Dec 5, 2006)

define ballistic nylon holster??? hehehe...

i like the new style packaging, looks more appropriate to the price point especially when giving away as presents.
the original carded packing of the P1 looks like a $10 lights to non flashaholics.

UnknownVT, didnt 4sevens say that the levels on P1D doesnt use PWM (LOP SE does), or has this been changed since that statement?


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## UnknownVT (Dec 5, 2006)

*x2x3x2* wrote: _"define ballistic nylon holster??? hehehe..."_

thick, tough, wide/broad woven nylon... 

*x2x3x2* wrote: _"didnt 4sevens say that the levels on P1D doesnt use PWM (LOP SE does), or has this been changed since that statement?"_

He did, and as far as I can tell nothing has changed -

However in that first gigantic thread - I tried to relay that message - but was corrected that to regulated the light electronically some form of PWM has to be used, even when no pulsing is physically detectable - 
so I was trying to avoid having to say whether it was or not.... 
which only got me into further trouble by you asking about it.

So _NO_ it does _NOT_ use PWM in the *colliquial* sense of what we normally mean by PWM - ie: any visible pulsing of the light - 
I tried my best to see any pulsing and could not see any.


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## Skyline (Dec 5, 2006)

Nice review UVT!


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## X Racer (Dec 5, 2006)

Nice review, thank you !


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## Art Vandelay (Dec 5, 2006)

UnknownVT said:


> OK, ok - what's it like?......
> first let's look at the High brightness level on regular Primary CR123A (NON-rechargeable)
> 
> vs. Fenix P1 both on primary CR123A
> ...


Great review UnknownVT. That is an awesome beam shot. The PD1-CE side spill is way brighter than the standard P1, and the old P1 is no slouch. The P1D-CE has, to my eyes, the perfect combination of throw and side spill.


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## jdriller (Dec 5, 2006)

Hey UVT, your comparison reviews are great! Thanks!


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## lexina (Dec 5, 2006)

UnknownVT said:


> SOS seemed slow to me - but it would be like someone actually having to switch a flashlight on and off to signal. It went through the SOS just once and stopped.


 
This is the only part that puzzled me. Shouldn't the SOS mode repeat itself continuously to be of any real use? Possibility that it's a defect in the test unit? Perhaps there was a long pause before the sequence repeated?

Btw, great review - thanks!


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## AFAustin (Dec 5, 2006)

Thanks so much for the beamshots and info.---great as usual!


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## Newuser01 (Dec 5, 2006)

Your review is GREAT! As usual. But I must say most of the stuff that you and others talked about went over my head.

My understanding is limited to how bright is the lights (SL PP LUX and Dorcy Super 1 watt cr123) and how long would the batteries last (oh- ballpark figure.....). Bear with me as I'm learning as most of us are.

So....To your eyes.
Where is the brightness of this P1DCE compare to SL PP LUX and dorcy super 1 watt? Does it throw better than SL PP LUX? And what would you say run time would be on CR123?

I'm not asking you run the actual test. Just an educated guess would be good enough for me since I can't really afford to get this.

Regards.
Noob


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## adirondackdestroyer (Dec 5, 2006)

Thanks a ton for the review and beamshots Unknownvt! I am even more fired up for my P1 Cree now that I saw your beamshots!


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## UnknownVT (Dec 5, 2006)

*lexina* wrote: _"This is the only part that puzzled me. Shouldn't the SOS mode repeat itself continuously to be of any real use? Possibility that it's a defect in the test unit? Perhaps there was a long pause before the sequence repeated?"_

You're right! My Bad!

The SOS does indeed repeat itself - there is a "long" pause of about 10 secs before it repeats itself - guess I was just impatient to see things and should have waited......

I'll go edit my post above to make a note of that mistake - 
but will leave the "mistake" in so as not to have people confused by your post.

Thanks for catching that


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## UnknownVT (Dec 5, 2006)

*Newuser01* wrote: _"So....To your eyes._
_Where is the brightness of this P1DCE compare to SL PP LUX and dorcy super 1 watt? Does it throw better than SL PP LUX? And what would you say run time would be on CR123?"_

I don't have either of the two lights you mentioned -

But eye-balling only all 3 levels of the P1D-CE using primary CR123A look brighter than the Dorcy 1watt Luxeon 3x AAA (link) which is pretty typical of a good 1watt Lux1 light - with the Low on the P1D-CE about the same ballpark as the Dorcy 1watt 3AAA.

That Dorcy is also the only flashlight I have that has a strobe mode - and the P1D-CE strobe has a faster rate than the Dorcy.

*Newuser01* wrote: _"Your review is GREAT! As usual. But I must say most of the stuff that you and others talked about went over my head."_

Just a minor point and kind of amusing - 
how can my review possibly be "great" -
if it only managed to go over your head?



?
Are comparison beamshots that complicated?


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## matrixshaman (Dec 5, 2006)

Thanks for this excellent review. I see this as one of the few lights I'll be buying more than one - maybe even backups for the backups


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## x2x3x2 (Dec 6, 2006)

i think the brighter sidespill doesnt really have much use. since its much dimmer compared to its hotspot.

when we use lights, our eyes would adjust to the intensity of the spot and we'll have to point and look using the spot and not the spill.


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## Buffalohump (Dec 6, 2006)

Cool review...

I would really like to see this light compared with the HDS 42 or 60 myself, which would appear to be its only direct competitor right now (apart from maybe the Jetbeam)...


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## UnknownVT (Dec 6, 2006)

Some current draw readings at the battery - 

Primary CR123A @ 2.92V Open-Circuit

Fenix P1D-CE
Medium = 0.45A
High = *1.46A (!!!* yes, I repeated several times, and with a different battery)
Low = 0.08A

Compared with -

Fenix P1 = 0.93A

Cree XR-E mod L1T 
High = 0.94A
Low = 0.11A


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## Skyline (Dec 6, 2006)

x2x3x2 said:


> i think the brighter sidespill doesnt really have much use. since its much dimmer compared to its hotspot.
> 
> when we use lights, our eyes would adjust to the intensity of the spot and we'll have to point and look using the spot and not the spill.



I'm not sure I agree. If you're using the light walking outside, the greater throw afforded by the brighter spot might allow you to point the main beam quite a distance away. It might have less effect on how your eyes adjust. As such, the brighter spill would still be helpful to light your immediate path.


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## wojtek_pl (Dec 6, 2006)

UnknownVT said:


> Some current draw readings at the battery -
> 
> Primary CR123A @ 2.92V Open-Circuit
> 
> ...


Holy shmoly... That IS a lot. No wonder it gets hot....


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## KAM (Dec 6, 2006)

Great review!

Thanks
Kam


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## cdosrun (Dec 6, 2006)

UnknownVT said:


> Some current draw readings at the battery -
> 
> Primary CR123A @ 2.92V Open-Circuit
> 
> ...




Wow, that does seem like some current, but I suppose if your cell(s) were that low off-load, they might have dipped a little more under that onslought. By the time the voltage has been boosted to the 3.75v or so required for the Cree, there is about an Amp going through the LED; still over driven, but not quite as bad.

Thank you for the review uVT, it is really nice to have another view of the newcomer.

My brightest light is currently a P1, I think I am going to be impressed when the new one arrives!

Andrew


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## LowBat (Dec 6, 2006)

I wonder how long that CR123 will last putting out 1.46amps?


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## PAB (Dec 6, 2006)

LowBat said:


> I wonder how long that CR123 will last putting out 1.46amps?



CR123's are normally 1300-1400 mAh or about 1.4 Ah, so I would guess a CR123 would last a little less than an hour.


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## Concept (Dec 6, 2006)

Wow such a prompt review. Did you have any time to play with it, or just straight to work?


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## EngrPaul (Dec 6, 2006)

The Energizer CR123 is rated 1500 mAh. 

Therefore, the promise of 1 hour on high sounds exactly right.

I think it was a good idea to make Medium the first mode activated for about 3 hours of service and more light than the stock P1.


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## LowTEC (Dec 6, 2006)

UnknownVT said:


> Some current draw readings at the battery -
> 
> Primary CR123A @ 2.92V Open-Circuit
> 
> ...



:goodjob:, now put a RCR123A in there and measure again, you can't see John again until you are done with your homework :laughing:

j/k great work UVT


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## jtice (Dec 6, 2006)

Very nice Vincent :goodjob:
Looking forward to this light.

~John


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## magmini from italy (Dec 6, 2006)

how many lumens can produce the P1D CE with a fully charged RCR123? if it's already on the 135 lumens with the primary...


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## Flying Dutchman (Dec 6, 2006)

Wow, that's a fast, good, and nice review!!

Thanks a lot!:goodjob:


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## UnknownVT (Dec 6, 2006)

Part 2 -

Using *3.7V Li-Ion Rechargeable RCR123*

As a *Control Reference* comparison

P1D-CE RCR123 High vs. Fenix P1 on primary CR123A







obviously we are expecting this to be brighter - and it is significantly brighter....

BUT is the P1D-CE any brighter than on a Primary CR123A?

Judge for yourself - here's the comparison with the P1 both on Primary CR123A repeated from the first post here for direct comparison -

P1D-CE High vs. Fenix P1 *both on primary CR123A*







Hard call to make....... I think it is a bit brighter on 3.7V Li-Ion Rechargeable RCR123 - but there isn't that much in it - ie: it's NOT dramatically brighter....

So, maybe that very high current draw at the battery of 1.46A from a Primary CR123A - is actually over-driving the Cree XR-E?

At this point I know something you don't know - yet (unless you've gone to the much later on in this post to read ahead... 
hey, don't spoil it - try to follow the logic here






)

OK, how does the P1D -CE High on RCR123 compare to the Cree XR-E mod L1T/L2T also on 3.7V Li-Ion Rechargeable RCR123?

P1D-CE RCR123 High vs. Cree XR-E in Fenix L1/2T also High both on 3.7V Li-Ion Rechargeable RCR123 -







comparable - perhaps the Cree mod L1T/L2T might have the edge - but it is close......
remember in the comparison between these two both on Primary CR123A, both set to high - the P1D-CE was a bit brighter......
So maybe the P1D-CE is not that much brighter (if at all) when on 3.7V Li-Ion rechargeable RCR123. 

I do not have another P1D-CE to directly compare the performance with the different batteries to say for sure though - but it just seems close - 
that's why I do these Control Reference comparisons......

So this brings us to the "good news - bad news" debate......

The "bad news" - seems like on 3.7V Li-Ion Rechargeable RCR123 - the P1D-CE does NOT seem significantly/any brighter.

The "good news" - seems like the P1D-CE even on Primary CR123A - attains the performance of being directly driven by a 3.7V Li-Ion Rechargeable RCR123.

I tend to err on the side of the "good news" - this is _*some achievement*_ to be able to get the max performance out of the Cree with a single ordinary Primary CR123A - 
call me an optimist - but I have not seen this level of performance out of a single ordinary Primary CR123A - and I'll repeat - this is _*some achievement.*_

How about the *Medium (defult)* level?

First the *Control Reference* comparison

P1D-CE RCR123 Medium vs. Fenix P1 on primary CR123A







er- this is significantly and noticably brighter than the comntrol reference of the P1 on Primary CR123A - which seems to confirm the comments so far that all 3 levels seem the same on RCR123...... (but remember at this point I know something you don't know - yet.... uh-uh, don't go peaking - stay with the program






)

P1D-CE RCR123 Medium vs. Cree XR-E in Fenix L1/2T on Low both on 3.7V Li-Ion Rechargeable RCR123







of course significantly brighter again compared to the Cree mod L1T/L2T on low also on RCR123... this kind of confirms the talk that all 3 levels on RCR123 seem the same...... but you know the rest.....





OK, on *Low *Level -

*Control Reference* comparison -

P1D-CE RCR123 on *Low* vs. Fenix P1 on primary CR123A







this is low? ....stop laughing... P1D-CE RCR123 on Low is very much brighter than the control reference P1 on Primary CR123A.

P1D-CE RCR123 on *Low* vs. Cree XR-E in Fenix L1/2T on Low both on 3.7V Li-Ion Rechargeable RCR123







brighter.....

So maybe all three levels are the same....... and there is no regulation when on Medium or Low.

This kind of stands to reason as explained by others - I have been told that for step-up circuits - when the Vin (ie: battery voltage) exceeds the designed Vout (normally set to the LED Vf) then the circuit is in effect by-passed and the LED is in effect direct-driven - hence the explanation of the 3 levels being the "same" -

BUT I told you I knew something.......

Current draw readings at the battery -

RCR123 - 3.7V 750mAh UNprotected @ 3.99V open-circuit
medium = 0.44A
high = 0.77A
low = 0.44A

what's this? the Medium and Low readings are the same BUT significantly Lower than the High - so is the High actually brighter afterall? - doesn't seem like it - although seems that it _should_ be.....

OK, maybe I have a strange battery......
Battery Station RCR123 3.6V protected @ 4.03V o-c
medium = 0.42A
high = 0.78A
low = 0.42A
Close enough for jazz.......

Just to be sure -
RCR123 3.6V 800mAh UNprotected @ 4.02V o-c
medium = 0.45A
high = 0.77A
low = 0.45A

I don't know what the story is - the 3 levels do seem about the same - but the current draw at the battery are very different between the high and the medium and low - I do not know why medium and low can draw such lower currents and yet seem to give out as much brightness as the the High - which is spectacularly bright (but perhaps not that much brighter than on Primary CR123A).....
..... maybe Fenix have found a way to get a "free lunch" with RCR123?


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## Moat (Dec 6, 2006)

Good job once again, Vincent!



UnknownVT said:


> The SOS does indeed repeat itself - there is a "long" pause of about 10 secs before it repeats itself



I thought the idea behind SOS as a signaling standard, was that it _does_ repeat, continuously (...SOSOSOSO...) - with no pauses...? 

IOW - The 10 second pause will likely happen just as the search aircraft passes over the canyon you're lying stuck and injured at the bottom of... :huh:

Doesn't seem right - does it?

(edit) - I was wrong - looks like SOS _is_ supposed to repeat "at brief intervals" - SOS - although no definition of how long "brief" is, was given.


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## wojtek_pl (Dec 6, 2006)

Does it get very hot on Medium/low settings with RCR123 3.7V ? Or hotter than with primary cell on medium ?


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## naturelle (Dec 6, 2006)

Moat said:


> IOW - The 10 second pause will likely happen just as the search aircraft passes over the canyon you're lying stuck and injured at the bottom of... :huh:



You do not really think, that an airplane sees such a small light-source!?


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## damon (Dec 6, 2006)

so is the P1D CE regulated using RCR123 when on low or med mode?





hope some1 will do a runtime chart fast! 
hopefully 4sevens sent chevrofreak the P1D CE to do what he does best


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## UnknownVT (Dec 6, 2006)

*wojtek_pl* wrote: _"Does it get very hot on Medium/low settings with RCR123 3.7V ? Or hotter than with primary cell on medium ?"_

I did not notice it getting even warm when taking the beamshots- but that might not be long enough - whereas the Fenix P1 definitely felt warm (but not hot) in the same period.

Just left the P1D-CE with the Battery Station Protected RCR123 on Medium for about ~ 8 mins now and the light is barely warm....

Just waiting for the Fenix P1 on that same battery.....
~8 mins and it's a bit warmer - but not that much warmer and definitely not what I would call hot.....

_EDIT to ADD_ -

Ha! left the P1D-CE on *High* with that Battery Station protected RCR123 for about ~8 mins now and it definitely feels warmer in this period - again not hot but warmer. Yet the light does not seem that much brighter (if at all) than when on medium - the warmth (by feel only) seems to confirm the lower power consumption (therefore heat dissipation?) of the P1D-CE on medium and low.......


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## LightBright (Dec 6, 2006)

Ok, so about 3.9 Watts INPUT power on HIGH (~2.7V X 1.46A)

about 1.2 Watts on Medium 2.7 x 0.45

and 0.224 watts on Low 2.8 x .08

Now all you have to do is break the wire going to the LED and measure volts/current there, and then we will also know the efficiency of the circuit and the actual power applied to the LED itself !!


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## Mike abcd (Dec 6, 2006)

UnknownVT said:


> Part 2 -
> 
> Using *3.7V Li-Ion Rechargeable RCR123*
> 
> ...



Those are some really strange results...

I really appreciate all your fine work giving all of us still waiting such detailed information!

If you're willing to do a little more, I'd love to see the battery voltage readings under load for the CR123 and RCR123 at the 3 levels. Being able to compare the actual power in would help a lot in projecting run times, etc. I've looked at Silverfox's CR123 and RCR123 battery graphs and they help in estimating run times coupled with your current readings but the actual voltages under load for the cells you're using would help a LOT. There are substantial differences in total watt-hours available at higher discharge currents between different brands of CR123 and RCR123 cells.

https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/67078
https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/117117

I've got my fingers crossed that a pices of Writeright mono PDA screen protector will make the P1D CE beam a lot prettier. It worked wonders on my VB-16 with little reduction is total output. There was a noticable reduction in throw but its overdriven Lux III still throws pretty well.

Again, Many Thanks for all the great info!

Mike

PS Looks like it will give acceptable run times on good RCR123 cells with impressive lumen output. Based on the lack of PWM, I was expecting them to be pretty unacceptable but your current measurements on them are quite a surprise


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## wojtek_pl (Dec 6, 2006)

Thanks UnknownVT ! Good job for all of us!


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## ezboy (Dec 6, 2006)

> Current draw readings at the battery -
> 
> RCR123 - 3.7V 750mAh UNprotected @ 3.99V open-circuit
> medium = 0.44A
> ...


 
Mine have almost same current draw at 3 modes.

unprotected RCR123 750mAh at 4.13V

medium : 780mA
high : 790mA
low : 780mA


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## UnknownVT (Dec 6, 2006)

*LightBright* wrote: _"Ok, so about 3.9 Watts INPUT power on HIGH (~2.7V X 1.46A)_
_about 1.2 Watts on Medium 2.7 x 0.45_
_and 0.224 watts on Low 2.8 x .08_
_Now all you have to do is break the wire going to the LED and measure volts/current there, and then we will also know the efficiency of the circuit and the actual power applied to the LED itself !!"_

Can you please explain why you used 2.7V (and later 2.8V) in your calculations?
The Open-Circuit battery voltage was 2.92V......

Can't go cutting things up - remember this is temporary loan.....

However here's a thought about the actual power comsumption by the Cree XR-E LED -

If what has been discussed is correct - the use of 3.7V RCR123 by-passes the circuit and in effect the light is directly driven - then the readings for the 3.7V Li-Ion Rechargeable RCR123 should be pretty close to the actual consumption at the LED?

So taking the High readings Average battery open-cicuit voltage was about 4.0V and the average current draw on High was about 0.77A - then the power consumption from Rechargeable RCR123 = 4 x 0.77 = 3.08 watts.

Does this help any?

However I am still at a loss to explain why the currrent consumption on Medium and Low using RCR123 were so significantly lower - yet the brightness level seemed on par with High...... 
(calculations - average 4.0V o-c and average 0.44A = 4 x 0.44 = 1.76 watts)


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## Lobo (Dec 6, 2006)

Moat said:


> Good job once again, Vincent!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
I agree. But I thought the SOS-mode was a gimmicky function from the beginning. If your relying on a flashlight for discovery, and cant blink it yourself or cant rely on a simple strobe and don't have any flares or real emergency kit, youre probably poop out of luck anyway.


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## magmini from italy (Dec 6, 2006)

...and to this point, the last unknown is the runtime with the RCR123...I suspect that is very very redoubt...:candle::thumbsdow


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## matrixshaman (Dec 6, 2006)

Lobo said:


> I agree. But I thought the SOS-mode was a gimmicky function from the beginning. If your relying on a flashlight for discovery, and cant blink it yourself or cant rely on a simple strobe and don't have any flares or real emergency kit, youre probably poop out of luck anyway.



I can think of numerous scenarios where this would not be true. Say you are injured and have no energy to hold a light but can at least turn it on. Say you are on a boat and are stuck on a lake at night out of gas but it's stormy or freezing cold so you want to be down in the cabin. You strap your S.O.S Fenix onto the railing and turn it on - then go inside and wait. Or you are in the wilderness lost but found a cave to keep warm - you set your Fenix outside on S.O.S. - just some basic scenarios - there are uses for it and NO most of us won't need it but as they say it's better to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it.


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## UnknownVT (Dec 6, 2006)

*ezboy* wrote: _"Mine have almost same current draw at 3 modes._
_unprotected RCR123 750mAh at 4.13V_
_medium : 780mA_
_high : 790mA_
_low : 780mA"_

Thanks for that input - mine definitely measures at different current levels - I was so surpised at the first set of readings - I repeated them twice with two different RCR123's

Seeing your results, I repeated my readings again and this time got *different* results....

3.7V Uprotected RCR123 750mAh @ *3.79V o-c*
medium = 0.30A
high = 0.85A
low = 0.29A

repeated with another battery to check -
Battery Station 3.6V Protected RCR123 @ *3.77V o-c*
medium = 0.30A
high = 0.86A
low = 0.30A

What's going on? why the different readings?

Well I had been using these batteries for the heat test for several minutes continuously and they were the ones used in my previous beamshots too - so they are now a bit "conditioned"/used as shown by the lower open-circuit voltages.

And _NOW_ I *CAN see a difference* between the high and the medium and low levels on these RCR123's! - and the impression is that the low might even be a bit dimmer than the medium - although the current draw at the battery might not seem that way - but that's how I eye-balled this.......

The mystery deepens......


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## Whitelitee (Dec 6, 2006)

Intresting finds vt, Can you tell me the the current draw on the P1 with RCR and CR battery?

Thanks for all the good work. Makes my wait time to recive the light more feesable.


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## UnknownVT (Dec 6, 2006)

*Whitelitee* wrote: _"Can you tell me the the current draw on the P1 with RCR and CR battery?"_

Didn't I already give the comparison current draw of the P1 with Primary CR123A? - yes... I did, it's in post #*27* when I did the Primary CR123A current draw readings.... repeated here for your convenience -

Primary CR123A @ 2.92V Open-Circuit
Fenix P1 = 0.93A

As for the Li-Ion Rechargeable RCR123's 
- all mine are now somewhat "conditioned" or used with lower open-circuit voltage - but FWIW -

3.7V Unprotected ECE123 750mAh @ *3.79V o-c*
P1 = 0.47A

Battery Station 3.6V Protected RCR123 @ *3.79V o-c* (yes, it seems to have recovered a fraction from the 3.77V)
P1 = 0.47A

3.6V Unprotected RCR123 800mAh @ *3.92V o-c* (slightly less used)
P1 = 0.54A
*P1D-CE* on this same last RCR123 -
med = 0.35A
Hi = 0.81A
Low = 0.35A


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## Mike abcd (Dec 6, 2006)

UnknownVT said:


> *ezboy* wrote: _"Mine have almost same current draw at 3 modes._
> _unprotected RCR123 750mAh at 4.13V_
> _medium : 780mA_
> _high : 790mA_
> ...



I think this is actually beginning to make sense to me...

If you take a look at the Cree data sheet current vs forward voltage graph, the loaded voltage of an RCR123 cell falls pretty directly on it as it discharges. The Cree Vf vs current will also vary a bit between emitter samples.

In your case with the RCR123 fresh off the charger it had a higher voltage than the Cree required to reach the current that the P1D CE circuitry was trying to regulate at even on high. Hence the Cree was direct driven at all 3 levels and you measured the same current.

With the RCR123 partially discharged its voltage under load dropped far enough that the P1D CE circuitry started boosting the battery voltage on high to mainain its set level for high mode drive current. However the battery voltage is still high enough to direct drive the Cree at a higher current than the P1D CE circuitry wants it to the on low and medium settings so it's still direct driven there.

ezboy seems to have a P1D CE with a "higher" Vf curve than yours so he got lower initial current readings but will probably see the same general behavior as yours as the RCR123 discharges.

Edit: I got it backwards. ezboy has a lower Vf emitter and/or RCR123 cells that have a higher voltage under load than yours. His P1D CE appears to stay in direct drive (longer) than yours in med/low. The difference in drive current between levels should happen when the Cree wants to consume less current at the battery drive voltage than the higher level. The Fenix circuit probably imposes a small voltage drop even when it's not boosting voltage complicating direct comparisons between the Cree Vf and battery discharge curves.

I can't figure out how to attach an image here but the Cree Vf vs current curve is on page 4 of the datasheet here.
http://www.cree.com/products/pdf/XLamp7090XR-E.pdf

I also suspect that there's a small voltage drop through the Fenix circuitry involved.

I was initially disappointed that the P1D CE was not using the same type of PWM on med/low as the L0 SE but now I'm starting to like it. As a RCR123 discharges the high level should drop in brightness as the fenix circuitry goes from diect drive into voltage boost mode then stay constant. Same thing for the medium mode but it will take longer for the RCR123 to discharge low enough until the current drops below what its trying to maintain to the Cree. Low mode will probably always stay direct drive with the brightness level dropping as the RCR123 discharges but always still brighter than it would be on a CR123.

This says nice things for runtime on RCR123 on med/low. By the end of it's useful/safe capacity at a loaded voltage of 3.0V, the Cree will probably only draw something like 75 mA if the Fenix is set to run in low mode stetching the run time quite a bit compared to what you're initial readings had me expecting. At that point the mid/high settings should have the Fenix circuitry in regulated current mode.

Hope this makes sense to somebody other than me... 

Mike


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## Whitelitee (Dec 6, 2006)

Sorry I didnt see, when Im at work I can only glance at this site every once inawhile. But thanks, and thank you for the great review and updates keep up the good work. At this point this is my favorit thread on cpf


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## LEDagent (Dec 6, 2006)

First, let me start off by saying that I am still leaning towards buying this light after the Christmas rush for them is over, despite the complaints it has recieved. The complaints from other posts about the "ringiness" really don't seem that bad in this review and from the other pictures i've seen. Heat, also dosn't seem too bad as i have owned other lights running at about the same power levels.
Lastly, I really don't like all the complaining from people that don't even have the light in their hands yet. In my own experience, no matter how good a picture is, or how close it tries to represent the reality of a flashlights beam pattern....you can NEVER base an accurate judgement on it. In real life...i bet it ain't that bad. At 70 dollars, it sure looks like it delivers the goods....and i've owned more expensive lights with dimmer lumens and crappier beams.

On to the questions.
While on RCR123s, do you get the multiple levels as soon as the voltage drops more? Looks like ezboy is getting all three levels after a few minutes, but their current draws don't look like those from primary 123s. I'm wondering if they'll "normalize" as voltages get closer to 3.0-3.2volts.

Next question.
It looks like R123s that top off at 4.2v bring the circuit way out of regulation. Aren't there R123s and chargers that top off at 3.0 or 3.2volts? Wouldn't that be a better choice of battery for someone who wants to retain the P1D-CE's 3 levels?

Last question (er....comment)
For a more versitile light (max brightess + 2 different levels) Primary cells are the best choice. For a brightness concience user, R123s are best because not only is the max brightness retained, it is drawing less current than primary cells at the same brightness.

Here is what i'm gathering according to the numbers (rounded current draws and stabbing at lumens).

Primary cells.
Max: 1500 mA -- 100-130 lumens -- maybe 20 minutes
Med: 450 mA -- 60 lumens -- 1.5 hours
Low: 8 mA -- 10 lumens? -- 20 hours?

Rechargeable cells (normalized to 3.7V)
Max: 850 mA -- 100-130 lumens -- 50 minutes, maybe 1 hour
Med: 300 mA -- 50 lumens -- 2.5 hours?
Low: 300 mA -- 45 lumens -- 2.5 hours?


Are my "guess-timates" off base or sound realistic?

I spent almost 150 dollars for an Aleph to get 75 lumens for 15 minutes. Spending 70 dollars to get 130 lumens for 50 minutes sound REAL good to me!


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## UnknownVT (Dec 6, 2006)

*Mike abcd* wrote: _"I think this is actually beginning to make sense to me..._
_If you take a look at the Cree data sheet current vs forward voltage graph, the loaded voltage of an RCR123 cell falls pretty directly on it as it discharges. The Cree Vf vs current will also vary a bit between emitter samples._
_In your case with the RCR123 fresh off the charger it had a higher voltage than the Cree required to reach the current that the P1D CE circuitry was trying to regulate at even on high. Hence the Cree was direct driven at all 3 levels and you measured the same current._
_With the RCR123 partially discharged its voltage under load dropped far enough that the P1D CE circuitry started boosting the battery voltage on high to mainain its set level for high mode drive current. However the battery voltage is still high enough to direct drive the Cree at a higher current than the P1D CE circuitry wants it to the on low and medium settings so it's still direct driven there._
_ezboy seems to have a P1D CE with a "higher" Vf curve than yours so he got lower initial current readings but will probably see the same general behavior as yours as the RCR123 discharges._
_I can't figure out how to attach an image here but the Cree Vf vs current curve is on page 4 of the datasheet here._
_http://www.cree.com/products/pdf/XLamp7090XR-E.pdf_
_I also suspect that there's a small voltage drop through the Fenix circuitry involved._
_Hope this makes sense to somebody other than me...



"_

It makes sense to me since this was basically my guess - 
that the RCR123 voltage(s) are hovering around the threshold where the circuit is operational or by-passed.

Thanks for the detailed explanation - probably better than I could have done by my guesswork .......

Is this the graph you were referering to?


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## LightBright (Dec 6, 2006)

UnknownVT said:


> Can you please explain why you used 2.7V (and later 2.8V) in your calculations?
> The Open-Circuit battery voltage was 2.92V......



I looked at a graph of a LOADED cr123 - Open circuit voltage measuring doesn't mean much at all. An almost dead cell can have an "almost new" voltage measurement with no load.

....and the higher 2.8 was because at 0.08 amps load, the battery voltage would likely rise. The more current you pull from a battery, the more the voltage drops, and vice versa.


If you don't have two meters (one for voltage readings, one for current) just take a look at the battery voltage drop when you put that P1 CE on High. If you watch the readings for a couple minutes, you should see the voltage drop off somewhat quickly, then the drop should slow down somewhat.


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## Mike abcd (Dec 6, 2006)

LEDagent said:


> ...
> 
> On to the questions.
> While on RCR123s, do you get the multiple levels as soon as the voltage drops more? Looks like ezboy is getting all three levels after a few minutes, but their current draws don't look like those from primary 123s. I'm wondering if they'll "normalize" as voltages get closer to 3.0-3.2volts.
> ...



The current draws from RCR123 cells are lower than CR123 cells because their voltage is higher. When the RCR123 is at full capacity and the P1D CE is being direct driven above the POWER level the Fenix circuitry is tring to maintain, they are still putting out more POWER than the CR123 on high even though the current reading is lower.

The "3.0 V" RCR123 cells with circuitry with that provides a voltage drop or AW's cells with a chemistry that provides a lower voltage should result in constant brightness levels the same as CR123 cells but the runtime will probably be 30-50% vs primaries at each level.

Your primary CR123 high run time is way off. I'd expect about 50 minutes but it will probably vary a LOT between different manufacturer's cells. Some seem to fall badly at the current level of the P1D CE on high.

I'd expect a run time of 30-40 minutes tops on an RCR123 cell on high depending on the cell. Run times on med/low look hard to figure since the power drawn will vary as the battery volatge drops. Medium should eventually go into regulated mode but low will be in direct drive mode with dropping intensity. It might go into regulated mode near the end depending on the Vf of the emitter you get and how low you're willing to discharge it. Protected (not voltage regulated) cells seem to have a drop out voltage of about 2.5 V so you should see regulation in even in low mode for a bit near the end. Personally I prefer not to discharge them that low as it kills the number of useful cycles and there isn't a lot of capacity below 3.0 V anyway.

Run time on low with RCR123 cells will probably vary a lot between emitters but might be 3-4 hours with (mostly?) dropping brightness.

Mike


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## EngrPaul (Dec 6, 2006)

Wouldn't runtime plots be just dandy right now


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## Jay R (Dec 6, 2006)

naturelle said:


> You do not really think, that an airplane sees such a small light-source!?


 
Not in the city perhaps but on a moonless or cloudy night out in the country even a standard torch can be seen for quite a few miles with the naked eye. If the rescuers are using night vision equipment, much further.
The bit below quoted from equipped.org. http://equipped.org/rescuelaser.htm

The mirror was visible three miles (4.8 km) out (moon was full and overhead, perfect conditions). The single LED lights were *visible at* three miles (4.8 km) with the exception of the white LED that was *visible at* four miles (6.4 km). Slow flashing/strobing light was easier to locate, more readily noticeable than a steady light, but absolute range was the same. The Mini-Mag 2xAAA gave out at six miles (9.6 km), 2xAA at 12 (19.3 km), which pretty much matches our previous testing experiences. Pelican's MityLite 1 x AAA maxed out at 9 miles (14.5 km), the 2 x AAA at 12 miles (19.3 km), and the 2xAA was visible out to 15 miles 924.1 km). LaserProducts' SureFire 6P reached out 25 miles (40.2 km).


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## Moat (Dec 6, 2006)

Lobo said:


> But I thought the SOS-mode was a gimmicky function from the beginning.



Me too. But I figured if the light just _has_ to have a gimmicky function, at the very least it should be a well thought out, useful function. 10 seconds is waaay too long of a pause... 2-3 would have been far better, IMO. The 10 second pause makes the utility of a questionable function even more questionable.


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## Mike abcd (Dec 6, 2006)

UnknownVT said:


> *...
> 
> *It makes sense to me since this was basically my guess -
> that the RCR123 voltage(s) are hovering around the threshold where the circuit is operational or by-passed.
> ...



Yup, that's the graph I was looking at.

Your testing has given me a much better understanding of what to expect when I get my P1D CE and is really appreciated!!!

I wasn't expecting it to be very useable with RCR123 cells due to short runtimes. That's still true on high but even on medium, it should put out slightly more light than a P1 on a primary and have a semi decent run time considering low should produce useable light for multiple hours.

Here's hoping that the Vf of the emitter I get coupled with the cells I use and how well the Cree is heat sinked in the P1D CE don't cause it to put out the magic smoke while it's being direct driven for a while fresh off the charger.... The ones I have from AW don't seem to hold volatge well under high load so they should probably be pretty safe although run times will be less than other brands.

I suspect we'll see RCR123 run times and brightness levels all over the place based on how well they hold up under load and the Vf of the emitter in the P1D CE tested.

Mike


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## LowTEC (Dec 6, 2006)

LEDagent said:


> Primary cells.
> Max: 1500 mA -- 100-130 lumens -- maybe 20 minutes
> Med: 450 mA -- 60 lumens -- 1.5 hours
> Low: 8 mA -- 10 lumens? -- 20 hours?
> ...


Your optimistic guesstimate for RCR123 would a bit off since RCR123 realistic capacity are usually at 650mAh while primaries are at 1400mAh, so I guess (again, "guess") the run time are actually the other way around


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## LEDagent (Dec 6, 2006)

I see that i've got a lot to learn about this light in the next few days as tests become more comprehensive. For now I'm gonna hold my guestimates to myself before I confuse more people. 

However, this light still has my attention. I love brightness, but i also love versatility. This light looks like it's got what i want.


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## cave dave (Dec 6, 2006)

There are standards for the SOS function. I think the function is bogus and would just rather have a 1hz flash but if you are going to have SOS it really ought to follow the standards I think.

The standard is 46cfr161.013-7

Google turns up:
http://a257.g.akamaitech.net/7/257/...ss.gpo.gov/cfr_2004/octqtr/46cfr161.013-7.htm

"flash characteristic of the International Morse Code for S-O-S and, under design conditions,
(1) Each short flash must have a duration of 1/3 second;
(2) Each long flash must have a duration of 1 second;
(3) The dark period between each short flash must have a duration of 1/3 second;
(4) The dark period between each long flash must have a duration of 1/3 second;
(5) The dark period between each letter must have a duration of 2 
seconds;
(6) The dark period between each S-O-S signal must have a duration of 3 seconds."


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## Art Vandelay (Dec 6, 2006)

Skyline said:


> ... If you're using the light walking outside, the greater throw afforded by the brighter spot might allow you to point the main beam quite a distance away. It might have less effect on how your eyes adjust. As such, the brighter spill would still be helpful to light your immediate path.


 Good point. Most of the time you have to chose between a flood light and spot light style beam. This seems to be a good balance between the two. I like the idea of having plenty of bright side spill for my peripheral vision, and still being able to see a long way downfield with the bright hotspot.


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## UnknownVT (Dec 7, 2006)

Scan of the Fenix P1D-CE instruction sheet -


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## Moat (Dec 7, 2006)

cave dave said:


> There are standards for the SOS function.



Ahh... good find, Dave - thanks!


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## easilyled (Dec 7, 2006)

Mike abcd said:


> I think this is actually beginning to make sense to me...
> 
> If you take a look at the Cree data sheet current vs forward voltage graph, the loaded voltage of an RCR123 cell falls pretty directly on it as it discharges. The Cree Vf vs current will also vary a bit between emitter samples.
> 
> ...



You've hit the nail on the head :goodjob:


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## UnknownVT (Dec 7, 2006)

Some more images - 







first pic - (left) looking into the body - the bright semi-circle is a bare aluminum lip/ledge in the body, and one can just see the tail-spring out of focus; (right) the head lying on its side - there are two cutouts on the threads showing the thick pcb.
second pic - (left) head - showing the electrical end - the gold colored ring on the pcb does NOT make any electrical contact with the threads; (right) the tail-end of the body.

The screw threads on the head are _*NOT*_ used to make electrical contact - 
I found that out when I was doing the current draw readings.

The negative electrical conduction is actually made with the gold colored conductive ring on the printed circuit board and the inner bare aluminum "lip"/ledge inside the body. 

I checked there is no electrical continuity between the threads and the printed circuit board ring.

Care should be taken not to short out the pcb ring and the threads - otherwise the flashlight will be ON as soon as the threads make contact with the body threads.....


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## LowTEC (Dec 7, 2006)

Interesting photos UVT, it's funny to see Fenix actually go as far as changing their traditional threads around to make sure you cannot mix-n-match the heads around. I guess the chance of producing new simple cree heads to work with the older L series is next to slim.


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## UnknownVT (Dec 7, 2006)

*LowTEC* wrote: _"it's funny to see Fenix actually go as far as changing their traditional threads around to make sure you cannot mix-n-match the heads around. I guess the chance of producing new simple cree heads to work with the older L series is next to slim."_

That might be true, but IMHO I don't think that was the intention - 
(of course I can only guess at any intention) -

To switch between the 5 different modes the light has to be switched on and off - and this method of contact seems to be a good one.

It does not have a to have a loose rattling battery when off - as the spring keeps it in contact with the head at all times, 
or relying on a possibily perishable foam ring in the long-term (the other popular method of preventing loose battery and rattle).

The heads between the P1D-CE and the P1 are not the same size anyway.....


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## EngrPaul (Dec 7, 2006)

*Re: Vincent's pictures*

Vincent,

Although I didn't request it, I've been anxious to see the pictures of this area of the flashlight. THANK YOU!!!

This shows that Fenix improved the (-) termination design problem I posted about in another thread (the standard P1) where the device flickers and dims.



UnknownVT said:


> Some more images -
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Oicu812 (Dec 7, 2006)

I really wish that you went right into high mode without having to do 3 off/on cycles. I would like to carry this light when my wife and I walk at night, but I won't carry a light that won't blind the person I am pointing it at the instant I turn it on.

Is it reprogrammable?

O


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## TooManyGizmos (Dec 7, 2006)

.
On-OFF-ON ........ for HI ..... (with primaries) ... 812
.
Bye the way ,,,, if you use 3.7v rechargeables ........

It *WILL* be on HI ......the moment you turn it on ..... O.K.

.


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## LowTEC (Dec 7, 2006)

TooManyGizmos said:


> .
> On-OFF-ON ........ for HI ..... (with primaries) ... 812
> .
> Bye the way ,,,, if you use 3.7v rechargeables ........
> ...



It may sound funny, but I happen to like this "feature", I never needed other modes in the first place anyway, and it totally suit me just fine :crack:

But the problem is, this feature progressively disappear as the cell capacity goes lower and I will have to twist twice to get back on High at some point.


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## TenPin (Dec 7, 2006)

Has anyone tried their P1D-CE with 3 volt RCR123 cells as opposed to the normal 3.7volt cells? I think with the 3 volt RCR123s that the different brightness modes should work.


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## Skyline (Dec 7, 2006)

UnknownVT said:


> The screw threads on the head are _*NOT*_ used to make electrical contact -



Great photos, and great news! The screw threads have been a constant irritation for me with the P1. It seems like this twisty will be significantly more reliable. Phew!

Thanks.


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## Mike abcd (Dec 8, 2006)

TenPin said:


> Has anyone tried their P1D-CE with 3 volt RCR123 cells as opposed to the normal 3.7volt cells? I think with the 3 volt RCR123s that the different brightness modes should work.



Have you tried reading this thread?

Here's a shortcut to what you're interested in.
https://www.candlepowerforums.com/posts/1723209&postcount=73

Mike


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## Seijin (Dec 8, 2006)

While I appreciate all the efforts that have been put into the reviews so far, what I'm really interested in is how this light performs in a real world environment instead of a white wall. Anyone try their light outside yet?


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## gadgetnerd (Dec 8, 2006)

Of course I've used it outside! It throws like a Streamlight Propoly Lux, but with a much whiter, wider and brighter spill beam. The strobe mode is excellent for dazzling possums up trees! It's magic to see so much light out of such a small torch (but the ringy beam is noticeable even outside).


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## Seijin (Dec 8, 2006)

Would anyone be kind enough to take mercy on us unfortuneate souls who have to wait until January to take possession of our lights and post some outside/inside photos of the light in action? :naughty:


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## LowBat (Dec 8, 2006)

gadgetnerd said:


> Of course I've used it outside! It throws like a Streamlight Propoly Lux, but with a much whiter, wider and brighter spill beam.


Was this the medium setting, or do you need to have it on high to out spill the SL ProPoly Lux?


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## gadgetnerd (Dec 8, 2006)

Medium setting has more spill than the SL PP, high has more throw (and a bigger hotspot). I take crap beamshots (and it's not dark here yet) but I'm sure the comparison shots will be on CPF once the thousands of 4 Sevens customers start getting their P1Ds.


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## Destroid Monster (Dec 8, 2006)

Juz got mine a few hours ago. The sun has also juz set...its time to play.


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## matrixshaman (Dec 8, 2006)

I'd really like to see some outside beamshots - Anyone?


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## brightnorm (Dec 8, 2006)

Fenix's run time claims are highlighted:

The Fenix P1D CE(Cree Edition) is a digitally controlled constant current multilevel flashlight ...
• Utilizes a Cree 7090 XR-E LED with a life of 50,000 hours 
• Uses one CR123A battery (not included) 
• 5 Output Levels: 72 lumens (2.8hrs) -> 135 lumens (1hrs) -> 12 lumens (21hrs) -> Strobe -> SOS 
• Digitally Regulated for Constant Brightness

Fenix claims 1 hr of constant brightness from a cr123 at 135 lumens. The Cree is said to be about twice as effiicient as a LUXIII, so the 135 L would correspond very roughly with the 60-70 L of a first rank light like the HDS Ultimate 60XR, or the SPY005 on Max. Putting aside calculated runtime for the moment and looking at actual use, the longest HDS 60XR constant brightness burn on max is about 37 minutes, and that is considered exceptional. The longest SPY005 constant brightness burn on max is about 1:20, but it has two CR123's.

Exaggerated run time claims are clearly observable in constant brightness lights. I find it hard to believe the one hour claim, and would be very impressed by a constant 135 lumens for 40 minutes .

Brightnorm


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## UnknownVT (Dec 9, 2006)

*Seijin* wrote: _"post some outside/inside photos of the light in action? "_
*matrixshaman* wrote: _"I'd really like to see some outside beamshots - Anyone?"_

(nag, nag, nag... oh, leave me alone....





don't you know how cold it is outside right now?)

*OUTDOOR beamshots - *
Please look at "Practical" Beamshots? pt.2 (outdoors) for details of the settings etc. as well as other flashlights which should be directly comparable.

My pampas grass "target" has changed since I last took beamshots - they've grown more plus there seems to be an overhanging branch from my deck that catches the side-spill and is somewhat distracting - but this is all I am prepared to do while it's this frigging cold outside!








seems like the P1D-CE is brighter than the Cree XR-E mod L1T/L2T even on 3.7V Li-Ion rechargeable RCR123 - but this could be due to the orange-peel textured McR18 reflector which gives a less intense hotspot.....

*Control Reference* light 
Fenix P1  on Primary CR123A





Compare this to the other astounding light I have the $5.48 Dorcy 1watt 3D - yes, that's *1watt Lux1*




very concentrated hotspot due to wider and much deeper reflector - that's a RWAH Lux1 directly driven (via a 1.2ohm resistor) by 3x D alkalines........

_EDIT to ADD_ -

I can't believe I forgot to take my *Control Reference* light the Fenix P1 on Primary CR123A for these outdoor pampas grass beamshots - so I've just made amends and added it to the appropiate place above...


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## UnknownVT (Dec 10, 2006)

*UnknownVT* wrote: _"*OUTDOOR beamshots - *_
_Please look at __"Practical" Beamshots? pt.2 (outdoors)__ for details of the settings etc. as well as other flashlights which should be directly comparable."_

Looking at my past outdoors pampas grass beamshots I thought the Fenix P1D outdid the very bright SureFire 9P incandescent (xenon 3x CR123) - please see the beamshots in Practical" Beamshots? pt.2 (outdoors).

However the very different color rendition makes the call harder.....

Remembering a technique I had used previously when trying to compare the brightness of a "white" LED with that of a Blue - I desaturated the colors from the beamshot to get rid of the color and left the black & white information so that one could directly compare the brightness levels -

*Desaturated* outdoors (pampas) beamshots -

Fenix P1D-CE ........................................................................ SureFire 9P (xenon, 3x CR123)








Cree XR-E mod L1/2T ............................................................. Streamlight Scorpion (xenon 2x CR123)








Dorcy 1watt 3D ................................................................... 3D MagLite








and just for comparison another LED light that I thought was spectatular on 3.7V Li-Ion rechargeable RCR123 - 
LightHound V3 3watt RCR123 ................................................... *Control Reference* Fenix P1 








That was then ... this is now...
that the Fenix P1D-CE has arrived....
there's a new sherriff in town





_EDIT to ADD_ -

I can't believe I forgot to take my *Control Reference* light the Fenix P1 on Primary CR123A for these outdoor pampas grass beamshots - so I've just made amends and added it to the appropiate place above...


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## AFAustin (Dec 10, 2006)

Amazing. Thanks, Vincent.

To paraphrase, a desaturated picture is worth a thousand words....


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## waynejitsu (Dec 10, 2006)

Dam... look at those rings!!!
Now I know what everyone is talking about, looks like I will have to sell mine before I get it, very disappointing, you can barely see the subject for the magnitude of dark rings!
(J/K


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## adirondackdestroyer (Dec 11, 2006)

Received mine today and WOW is all I can say! The output is absolutely incredible!!! The rings are there but they aren't very bad even when on a whitewall. I haven't used it outside yet but will in a few hours.


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## brightnorm (Dec 11, 2006)

If anyone has a chance to run-test their P1D-CE it would be interesting to see how close it comes to the claimed 135L/1 Hr.

Brightnorm


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## garageguy (Dec 12, 2006)

Just got mine yesterday. Rings shmrings, who cares. This thing is tiny and incredibly bright!


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## UnknownVT (Dec 12, 2006)

*brightnorm* wrote: _"If anyone has a chance to run-test their P1D-CE it would be interesting to see how close it comes to the claimed 135L/1 Hr."_

Chevofreak has just posted -

Fenix P1D CE runtimes (link)

summary -
High (estimated 111.14 lumens)
44mins to 50% for primary CR123A (flat for first ~20mins)
34min ro 50% for 3.7V 800mAh Li-Ion RCR123 (flat)

Medium (est 59.5 lumens, est for RCR123 was ~75 lumens)
2hrs 29mins to 50% (flat)

Low (est 16.86 lumens)
13hrs 20mins to 50% (flat)


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## UnknownVT (Dec 12, 2006)

Some indoors practical beamshots using my "standardized" stairway shot - please see -

"Practical" Beamshots? 
for more details -

Fenix P1D-CE RCR123 High ................................ Cree XR-E in Fenix L1T/L2T RCR123 High







although the P1D-CE seemed to outdo the Cree mod L1T by quite a margin in the outdoors shots above - these stairway shots seem to show they are about the same - at least indoors and on my stairs......

For completeness and comparison that Dorcy 1watt 3D which looked so devastatingly bright in the outdoors shot -
Dorcy 1watt 3D .............................................. *Control Reference* Fenix P1 on Primary CR123A 








_EDIT to ADD_ -

I can't believe I forgot to take my *Control Reference* light the Fenix P1 on Primary CR123A for these indoors stairway beamshots - so I've just made amends and added it to the appropiate place above...


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## Lobo (Dec 12, 2006)

@UnknownVT

You're kidding me? I first thought you had your indoorlight on, on the first pics, then I scrolled down and saw the pic of the Dorcy 3D. Damn, are those Crees bright!


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## Whitelitee (Dec 12, 2006)

I can hardly see the "dark ring" in thoese pictures, mine seems to have a more pronouncecd ring then that.


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## UnknownVT (Dec 12, 2006)

I've said previously I thought the P1D-CE on high may have been brighter than the very bright/intense SureFire 9P - xenon, 3x CR123 (standard P90 module) - so using the same desaturation/removal of color technique - we can compare these "standardized" stairways shots without the distraction of different colors/tints -

*Destaurated/Colors removed* versions -

Fenix P1D-CE RCR123 High ................................ Cree XR-E in Fenix L1T/L2T RCR123 High








vs. SureFire 9P xenon 3x CR123 .......................... *Control Reference* Fenix P1 on Primary CR123A 








Some previously spectacular LED lights - LuxIII on RCR123....
Nuwai Q3 with RCR123 ...................................... LightHound V3 on RCR123








Here's that impressive 
Dorcy 1watt 3D ............................................. 3D Mag -








_EDIT to ADD_ -

I can't believe I forgot to take my *Control Reference* light the Fenix P1 on Primary CR123A for these indoors stairway beamshots - so I've just made amends and added it to the appropiate place above...


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## brightnorm (Dec 13, 2006)

UnknownVT said:


> *brightnorm* wrote: _"If anyone has a chance to run-test their P1D-CE it would be interesting to see how close it comes to the claimed 135L/1 Hr."_
> Chevofreak has just posted -
> Fenix P1D CE runtimes (link)...


 
Thanks

BN


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## UnknownVT (Dec 14, 2006)

I had suggested that the Fenix P1D-CE on High seemed brighter than the devastating SureFire 9P xenon, 3x CR123.

Yes, I was *incredulous* too - 
until I saw my own stairs and outdoors beamshots - especially when I removed/desaturated the colors so one could compare more directly.

Advertized light output -

SureFire 9P - 105 lumens (standard P90 module)

Fenix P1D-CE - 135 lumens High (but tested estimate was ~111 Lumens)

So I did the obvious side-by-side comparisons and included my favorite xenon/lithium - the Streamlight Scorpion -

Sizes





Heads





*Beamshots* -

P1D-CE High vs. SureFire 9P xenon 3xCR123A







even with the "distracting" colors - to me the P1D-CE seems brighter.....

Just so that we are comparing apples to apples - I removed/desaturated the colors -







I think this may confirm it........

Reasoning - Note the SureFire 9P has a much, much wider beam side-spill and a orange-peel/stippled reflector - so its light is spread out more - 
whereas the P1D-CE concentrates its light in a narrower beam so the side-spill will seem brighter.

With that, one sees the Streamlight Scorpion fared much less well -
P1D-CE High vs. Streamlight Scorpion xenon 2xCR123A







I am actually shocked by the -2 stops underexposed shot... 
and I double-checked the batteries in both xenon lights to make sure they were fine, and they were......

More reasoning: the Scorpion's beam is even wider than the 9P - it also has an orange-peel/stippled reflector - so the Scorpion's lower light output is spread out even more

Just so there is no doubt - the color removed/*desaturated* shots -
P1D-CE High vs. Streamlight Scorpion xenon 2xCR123A


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## wojtek_pl (Dec 14, 2006)

Incredible... :twothumbs Well... That will be a new generation of flashlights.


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## Newuser01 (Dec 14, 2006)

I could not say anything more than "you did a great job and is great service to CPF'ers who read thru this thread." As others reviews you have done before, you have out done yourself.

Are RCR123's have enough room in the P1D-CE? It is tight?

Just a though!
Would it be possible to do more bean shots of P1D (non cree version) and someone else to do a run time test? Just my wish. Not everyone can efford a CR version, at least for me.

Regards and happyholidays to all!
Noob.


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## gadgetnerd (Dec 14, 2006)

Newuser01 said:


> Are RCR123's have enough room in the P1D-CE? It is tight?



My unprotected RCRs fit in there without a problem.


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## UnknownVT (Dec 15, 2006)

*Newuser01* wrote: _"__Are RCR123's have enough room in the P1D-CE? It is tight?"_

The Battery Station Protected RCR123 (the fattest one I had) fitted the P1D-CE with room to spare.


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## UnknownVT (Dec 15, 2006)

The specs for the Fenix P1D-CE are -
72 lumens (2.8hrs) -> 135 lumens (1hrs) -> 12 lumens (21hrs) 

the light has been tested for runtimes - 

Fenix P1D CE runtimes (link)

Thinking of this - the Fenix P1D-CE - 
on High - ~111 lumens tested est (135 lumens spec) is brighter than a standard SureFire 9P - ie: good xenon on 3x CR123 
and will run 44mins tested (1 hour spec) on a single CR123A battery.

Medium/default - ~60 lumens tested est (72 lumens spec) is about as bright as a Streamlight Scorpion or SureFure 6P - ie: good xenon 2x CR123A -
but will run 2.5hours tested (2.8hours spec) on a single CR123A

Low - ~17 lumens tested est (12 lumens spec) is brighter than most 1/2 watt and any single 5mm LED light - but will run over 13 hours tested (21 hours spec) on a single CR123A.

I think it's amazing the advances in technology........


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## ernsanada (Dec 15, 2006)

UnknownVT said:


> *Newuser01* wrote: _"__Are RCR123's have enough room in the P1D-CE? It is tight?"_
> 
> The Battery Station Protected RCR123 (the fattest one I had) fitted the P1D-CE with room to spare.



I have AW's Protected RCR123's and they fit tight. I need a pick to remove them.


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## adirondackdestroyer (Dec 15, 2006)

I also think it is amazing how fast technology advances and the huge jumps it can sometimes make. It wasn't too long ago that Incan flashaholics would laugh at the idea of an LED light being anywhere near as bright as a 6P, and now there is one that is just as bright and runs over twice as long. Unreal! :rock: 





UnknownVT said:


> The specs for the Fenix P1D-CE are -
> 72 lumens (2.8hrs) -> 135 lumens (1hrs) -> 12 lumens (21hrs)
> 
> the light has been tested for runtimes -
> ...


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## PAB (Dec 15, 2006)

adirondackdestroyer said:


> I also think it is amazing how fast technology advances and the huge jumps it can sometimes make. It wasn't too long ago that Incan flashaholics would laugh at the idea of an LED light being anywhere near as bright as a 6P, and now there is one that is just as bright and runs over twice as long. Unreal! :rock:



Yeah. Soon only spotlights and HID will be brighter than LEDs. For those of us that like to have the brightest most versatile light for EDC, it's kind of frustrating to have to buy them this quickly.


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## LightBright (Dec 15, 2006)

In case my mini-review gets missed in General\LED\ Fenix Engineers analyze the P1D CE's beam I'll drop a copy in here....


Just got mine about 20 minutes ago.... never had a twisty head flashlight before so I don't know how much the threads should be dragging as I twist it. So far I get a better result if I use both hands, as one handed, it seems to not reliably make contact every time, and I end up about 2 modes ahead of where I wanted to be.

I have some idea of how the output would look, because I've already had some raw P2 bins to play with.

YEP, the ring is there. I'm totally sure it's because of the type of reflector. I have one almost EXACTLY like it for my McLux (which now has a XR-E in it). I have at least 3 choices of reflectors I can use: None (bare LED), a NX-05 optic, and a "flood" metal reflector that's just a tad less deep-dished than the Fenix reflector.

When I use the optic, NO RING. When I use the metal reflector - ring ring!
Do I notice it out in the backyard? Nope.

I think an textured reflector curved to match the properties of the Cree will be the way to go.

I like testing output with the "ceiling bounce" method, although I noticed my readings are affected by how tight the beam is. On the medium mode, it's about the same as my Cree setup at about 350ma or so. On high mode, I have to drive mine at about 800 to 900 ma to get the same result. The low mode takes less than 100ma. The high mode is indeed a battery and flashlight stress inducer.


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## SoSa (Dec 17, 2006)

Just to compare apples with oranges i measured the current draw of my HDS U60: 
on medium: .15 A 
on the highest setting: 1.89 A

My P1D CE
on medium setting: .42A
on the highest setting: 1.2 A 
with lots of light. 
I can not measure the amount of light, but i am sure the fenix has brighter hotspot and much more sidespill.


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## SoSa (Dec 17, 2006)

Just an afterthought: with that much light who cares about the rings. (which outdoors are barely visible)


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## UnknownVT (Dec 17, 2006)

*SoSa* wrote: _"Just to compare apples with oranges i measured the current draw of my HDS U60: _
_on medium: .15 A _
_on the highest setting: 1.89 A_
_My P1D CE_
_on medium setting: .42A_
_on the highest setting: 1.2 A _
_with lots of light. _
_I can not measure the amount of light, but i am sure the fenix has brighter hotspot and much more sidespill."_

Interesting thank you.

To make it closer to apples to apples -
The HDS U60 is rated at 60 lumens?
The Medium/default brightness of the Fenix P1D-CE is advertized as 75 lumens
but tested estimate was about 60 lumens.

So for roughly about the same brightness output (~60 lumens)
the P1D-CE (medium) is drawing 0.42A, 
and the HDS U60 is drawing 1.89A

The Low level on the P1D-CE is rated at 12 lumens - 
but tested estimate was close to 17 lumens - 
my measurement for low was 0.08A.


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## matrixshaman (Dec 17, 2006)

This might be an interesting thing to note. My P1D CE does NOT have an apparent ring on one side. That is about 30% of the area around the hot spot where you normally see the 'dropoff ring' that appears to be a dark ring is lacking on one side. Since my light is supposed to be a Christmas present to me I have to sneak looks at it when I get the chance and haven't had an opportunity yet to photograph it. I've tried to determine if the emitter dome is cattywompus or if the reflector is off center or what is causing this. So far the emitter appears very well centered in the reflector and the reflector appears symmetrical. From my quick exam it appears the emitter might be a little less than symmetrical or the metal ring around it is slightly tilted. I'm not sure yet but this leads me to believe that with a little tweaking by Cree that it might be possible to largely eliminate the 'ring'. More to follow after Christmas


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## SoSa (Dec 17, 2006)

UnknownVT said:


> To make it closer to apples to apples -
> The HDS U60 is rated at 60 lumens?
> The Medium/default brightness of the Fenix P1D-CE is advertized as 75 lumens
> but tested estimate was about 60 lumens.
> ...




Yes, it is rated as a 60 lumen light.

I made some side by side comparisons and the medium on P1D CE is about the same as high on U60.

Maybe it would be interesting to measure the HDS on the lowest setting, but the low on the HDS is about 3 lumens so it makes no sense to compare the current.


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## UnknownVT (Dec 17, 2006)

*SoSa* wrote: _"Yes, it is rated as a 60 lumen light._
_I made some side by side comparisons and the medium on P1D CE is about the same as high on U60._
_Maybe it would be interesting to measure the HDS on the lowest setting, but the low on the HDS is about 3 lumens so it makes no sense to compare the current."_

Isn't the Primary (medium) level of the HDS U60 rated at 10 lumens?
How does that compare to the rated 12 lumens of the P1D-CE on Low? 
(although tested low estimate was ~17 lumens)

I measured 0.08A at the battery for the P1D-CE on low
your measurement was 0.15A for the U60 on "medium".

So if the above is correct - then the P1D-CE is drawing about *1/2* the current of the HDS U60 with about the same rated brightness - 
but in actual comparison the P1D-CE may be brighter?

What are other levels of the HDS U60 rated at?

Or can you simply eyeball a level that's comparable to the P1D-CE on Low 
and please measure the current draw at the battery?


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## SoSa (Dec 17, 2006)

UnknownVT said:


> So if the above is correct - then the P1D-CE is drawing about *1/2* the current of the HDS U60 with about the same rated brightness -
> but in actual comparison the P1D-CE may be brighter?
> 
> What are other levels of the HDS U60 rated at?
> ...



My PD1-CE on the lowest setting draws around .1A. That is on the 10A range. 

My HDS U60 on the medium setting is set to level 7 (20 lumens?). Eyeballing the outputs they are roughly the same. 
U60 has a tighter and brighter hotspot, but the sidespill is a tad dimmer. I would say the total output must be very close to the P1D-CE.


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## brightnorm (Dec 17, 2006)

deleted (duplicate post)


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## UnknownVT (Dec 18, 2006)

*brightnorm* wrote: _"I will have to admit my ignorance and ask if you can please explain the procedure to measure current draw?"_

Usually measured between the negative terminal of the battery and the body or head of the light - 
a meter capable of measuring up to several amps (ie: several thousands of mA - milliAmps) is needed.

For the PID-CE remove the head - place the battery +ve end in contact with the central contact of the head. Then place the -ve probe of the meter on the -ve terminal of the battery and with the meter set on the Amps scale (eg: 10A in my case) touch the +ve probe to the ring surround contact of the head's pcb - the first contact should give the medium/default reading.

Untouch the +ve probe and almost immediately touch the probe again on the head's contact point - this should give the second bright level - High's reading - etc.


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## brightnorm (Dec 18, 2006)

Vincent,

Thanks for that information and for your excellent tests.

Brightnorm


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## UnknownVT (Dec 18, 2006)

*SoSa* wrote: _" My PD1-CE on the lowest setting draws around .1A._
_My HDS U60 on the medium setting is set to level 7 (20 lumens?). Eyeballing the outputs they are roughly the same. _
_U60 has a tighter and brighter hotspot, but the sidespill is a tad dimmer. I would say the total output must be very close to the P1D-CE."_

This level 7 Medium for the HDS U60 is the same as the "medium" you had measured earlier at 0.15A?

So for about the same output of around 17-20 lumens 
the P1D-CE draws about 0.08-0.1A 
the HDS U60 draws 0.15A - 
again the P1D-CE is using about 1/2 to 0.67 the current of the U60 
for approx the same brightness level......


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## Mike89 (Dec 18, 2006)

Nice shots, the most useful I've seen yet. What I'd like to know, has anyone tested the throw of this light at further distances than 15 feet? 15 feet is not very far. Granted, those shots show spectacular lighting at that distance but I'd also like to know how far down the street it can produce useful light.

Like say taking the P1D CE and the L2T (for reference) outside together and just start pointing at different things to see how they compare to each other in distance.

If no one has beamshots, experiences and estimation of distances would be great.


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## UnknownVT (Dec 18, 2006)

*Mike89* wrote: _"What I'd like to know, has anyone tested the throw of this light at further distances than 15 feet? 15 feet is not very far. Granted, those shots show spectacular lighting at that distance but I'd also like to know how far down the street it can produce useful light._
_Like say taking the P1D CE and the L2T (for reference) outside together and just start pointing at different things to see how they compare to each other in distance._
_If no one has beamshots, experiences and estimation of distances would be great."_

Post#*92* and Post #*93* on page 4 (links) of this thread 
has *outdoors* beamshots of the P1D-CE and other lights in comparison ......

The explanation and details are given in the thread - 

"Practical" Beamshots? pt.2 (outdoors) 

The distance was about 10 metres (11 yards) to the "target".


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## Mike89 (Dec 18, 2006)

I've seen those. I was thinking further out than that. What I was referring to was maximum distance in comparison to the L2T, P1, etc. I'm just curious.


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## UnknownVT (Dec 18, 2006)

*Mike89* wrote: _"I've seen those. I was thinking further out than that. What I was referring to was maximum distance in comparison to the L2T, P1, etc. I'm just curious."_

I no longer have the Fenix P1D-CE to compare.

However looking at the series of color removed/desaturated outdoors pampas grass beamshots in Post #*93* of this thread - 
my _*GUESS*_timate - 

P1D-CE does not throw as far as the Dorcy 1watt 3D (RWAH Lux1 1watt) - 
probably throws about on par with a Mag 3D standard incandescent...... 
and throws further than any of the following - 
Streamlight Scorpion xenon 2xCR123A on tightest focus, 
LightHound V3 Rechargeable on RCR123,
Fenix P1 on CR123A (the control reference)

I can't call it between the P1D-CE and the SureFire 9P xenon 3xCR123A......


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## brightnorm (Dec 24, 2006)

A little OT but relevant to P1D-CE "useability". 

Not knowing when my lights would arrive from FourSevens I ordered one from Brightguy. I was generally impressed with its performance but less so with its ergonomics. Specifically, any light depending on single hand multiple bezel turns for multi-level functioning should be easy to turn and to grasp. 

My light failed on both counts. As is common with the rotary switch Fenix lights I own, the protruding o-ring makes one-handed operation difficult, even with adequate lubing. Also, as with one of my "old" P1-s the knurling is so shallow that it affords almost no grip, especially with cold or dry hands. 

The combination of high friction and poor "gripability" makes my particular P1D-CE a two-hand light. Others may not have a problem with this, but I find it uncceptable. My crude "fix" involved carefully cutting several slivers off the outer surface of the o-ring and wrapping tape around the bezel. I have found a 1/4" wide strip of black skateboard tape most useful for this after smoothing it down a bit. 

After this and a little relubing the light functioned perfectly. With the combination of a silky-smooth turning and easy-to-grip bezel the light was now a joy to use. However, this shouldn't have been my job or any user's job. 

Fenix has proven to be a highly competant and innovative company, remarkably responsive to our input and almost uniquely fast in new model production and implementation of change. Their design department is clearly on the ball so it's hard for me to understand these lapses in ergonomic design. 

The possibility remains that these problems are unique to my particular light and all or most others are fine. Regardless, this is still a fine light, and considering its features probably one of the most advanced, mini-sized commercial lights on the market today.

Brightnorm


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## English_Mart (Dec 27, 2006)

I can't reliably turn my fenix on with only one hand either, this could prove to be a bit frustrating - maybe thing may loosen up a bit with use and work better after a while. It's probably better than having the loose threads that others have complained of.


On another note, I bought several of these lights so that I could give some away as presents, now the first one I fired up hardly exhibited any "ring" at all, made me wander what all the fuss was about. The second one I looked at was similar but the third clearly showed the ring. I'd probably describe myself as only a medium effected flashaholic (at least in terms of fussyness to imperfections such as the ring) but the ring in the third light would bother me I think and I will give it to the person who is likely to use his torch the least.

I'm now looking forward to when it gets dark so I can give this little light a fair test


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## cdwitmer (Dec 27, 2006)

Hi, this is my first post at CPF. I'm very interested in using these lights for cycling, but if possible powered by a dynamo rather than by a battery. I need advice from people on this forum as to whether what I have in mind sounds like it would work . . . thanks in advance! I use a Shimano hub dynamo that has a nominal 6V/3W output. (A good article on bicycle dynamo output characteristics can be seen here: http://myra-simon.com/bike/dynotest.html) I'm still a newbie to all this but I'm under the impression that because of the voltage I should hook up two of these lights in parallel. I'm also under the impression that I would be significantly under-driving these lights in such a setup but that they would still be brighter than just about any other LED light that I could hook up to a bicycle dynamo. One nice thing is that they would get brighter as speed increases, which is a big plus when going down the side of a mountain in the dark. I would augment these with a battery-driven unit mounted either on my bike or on my helmet (I'd have to keep a few spare batteries on hand.) I would probably keep the dynamo-driven units on all the time, and during the daytime at least they would probably be kept in strobe mode.

By the way, here is a good (but expensive) LED-based dynamo light: http://solidlights.stumpie.com/products/1203d.php

I would be VERY grateful for any advice. Thanks!

(Subsequently it was kindly suggested that I start a new thread, which can be found here: https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/146333)


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## [email protected] Messenger (Dec 27, 2006)

cdwitmer said:


> Hi, this is my first post at CPF. I'm very interested in using these lights for cycling, but if possible powered by a dynamo rather than by a battery. I need advice from people on this forum as to whether what I have in mind sounds like it would work . . . thanks in advance! I use a Shimano hub dynamo that has a nominal 6V/3W output. (A good article on bicycle dynamo output characteristics can be seen here: http://myra-simon.com/bike/dynotest.html) I'm still a newbie to all this but I'm under the impression that because of the voltage I should hook up two of these lights in parallel. I'm also under the impression that I would be significantly under-driving these lights in such a setup but that they would still be brighter than just about any other LED light that I could hook up to a bicycle dynamo. One nice thing is that they would get brighter as speed increases, which is a big plus when going down the side of a mountain in the dark. I would augment these with a battery-driven unit mounted either on my bike or on my helmet (I'd have to keep a few spare batteries on hand.) I would probably keep the dynamo-driven units on all the time, and during the daytime at least they would probably be kept in strobe mode.
> 
> By the way, here is a good (but expensive) LED-based dynamo light: http://solidlights.stumpie.com/products/1203d.php
> 
> I would be VERY grateful for any advice. Thanks!


 
Welcome to CPF, I think it would be wise to simply start a new thread rather than post in this one as this would be off the topic on this thread


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## cdwitmer (Dec 27, 2006)

Okay, I am going to start a new thread right away. Thanks for the advice and sorry for the attempted hijack . . . here is the new thread: https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/146333


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## daberti (Jan 2, 2007)

UnknownVT said:


> *LightBright* wrote: _"Ok, so about 3.9 Watts INPUT power on HIGH (~2.7V X 1.46A)........._



Right now I'm doing some tests with my brand new P1D-CE.
I've tested 4 MP brand unprotected RCR123 batts (3.6v/700mAh) from AW at Primary output. Slightly less than 60minutes to 1/10 ot starting output. Results are consistent between the 4 batteries. Each battery has been allowed to rest one hour after charge. Came off the charger at 4.10v and at time of starting of the test was at 4.07.

I'm confused as no sign of regulation is shown and output is fading continuosly.
Everything looks like showing it is running in DD?Asking.

Cheers


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## Mike abcd (Jan 2, 2007)

Mine took 45 minutes to go into regulation on primary (medium) with one of AW's 3.7 V protected cells purchased about a year ago. Total run time was 65 minutes until LVC. I think you would have a very hard time spotting this without a light meter. I can't do a discharge capacity test but it took 480 mAH to recharge the cell to 4.20 V on a fairly sophisticated charger used in the r/c world.

Chevrofreak's test showed his went into regulation on primary in 9 minutes and he got ~90 minutes run time.

The difference is probably mostly due to mine having an emitter with a lower Vf than his although some of it could be a difference in the RCR123 used for testing. Your emitter might have a slightly lower Vf than mine and/or your cells are not holding voltage as well.

Be very careful about over discharging unprotected cells. My protected RCR123 hit LVC while still in regulation on primary and even the LVC is a bit lower than what is best for optimum cell life.

Mike


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## daberti (Jan 2, 2007)

Mike abcd said:


> Mine took 45 minutes to go into regulation on primary (medium) with one of AW's 3.7 V protected cells purchased about a year ago. Total run time was 65 minutes until LVC. I think you would have a very hard time spotting this without a light meter. I can't do a discharge capacity test but it took 480 mAH to recharge the cell to 4.20 V on a fairly sophisticated charger used in the r/c world.
> 
> Chevrofreak's test showed his went into regulation on primary in 9 minutes and he got ~90 minutes run time..................



Thanks Mike. 
As a matter of fact I do have a lightmeter built into my DMM.
My understanding is that 3v/900mAh Tenergy RCR123 should solve the issues. They should be on my way already.

And yes: I do acknowledge that over discharge is an issue with unprotected cells.

EDIT: 
UPDATE: all ok with the chargers, runtimes confirmed. I also did a discharge at High, scoring 35minutes, but ending it with the light shaming HOT.
Some data about MP batteries:
Charge done on Nano charger until green light on. Rest for 10minutes to let voltage stabilize and heat go away.
Discharge on Triton at 0.5A and 3V cutoff.
*MP#1*: 4.04v after charge/rest=>3.70v after 10seconds of discharge. 375mAh and 77°F at end of discharge.Stabilized voltage at end of discharge (after three minutes): 3.60v.
*MP#2*: 4.04v after charge/rest=>3.71v after 10seconds of discharge. 384mAh and 77°F at end of discharge.Stabilized voltage at end of discharge (after three minutes): 3.60v.
*MP#3*: 4.02v after charge/rest=>3.69v after 10seconds of discharge. 384mAh and 77°F at end of discharge.Stabilized voltage at end of discharge (after three minutes): 3.60v.
*MP#4*: 4.04v after charge/rest=>3.70v after 10seconds of discharge. 402mAh and 77°F at end of discharge.Stabilized voltage at end of discharge (after three minutes): 3.60v.

UPDATE: tried with two protected 123 (light-violet wrapping, 750mAh from Lighthound, 1yr old). 1h 20' until LVC. Must be noted that these batts have been used once or maybe twice, thus some improvements might be expected. 

UPDATE: now tested the two protected cells from Lighthound with same settings as above (_*charge on Nano till green light->off charger->rest 10minutes->discharge on Triton->rest 10minutes->charge on Nano->rest 10 minutes->battery into P1D-CE->runtime test begins*_).
*Protected light-violet 750mAh from Lighthound#[email protected] discharge current*: 4.01v after charge/rest=>3.95v after 10seconds of discharge. 256mAh and 78°F at end of discharge.Stabilized voltage at end of discharge (after three minutes): 3.60v.
*Protected light-violet 750mAh from Lighthound#@**0.5A discharge current*: 3.99v after charge/rest=>3.96v after 10seconds of discharge. 250mAh and 77°F at end of discharge.Stabilized voltage at end of discharge (after three minutes): 3.60v.

P1D-CE runtimes on medium: c.a. 80' (consistent between cells) to LVC. Cells give 2.80v off the flashlight after 3 minutes rest.

Now the test of protected @0.3A discharge current
*Protected light-violet 750mAh from Lighthound#1**@0.3A discharge current*: 4.03v after charge/rest=>3.95v after 10seconds of discharge. 297mAh and 78°F at end of discharge.Stabilized voltage at end of discharge (after three minutes): 3.70v.
*Protected light-violet 750mAh from Lighthound#2**@0.3A discharge current*: 4.03v after charge/rest=>3.96v after 10seconds of discharge. 298mAh and 77°F at end of discharge.Stabilized voltage at end of discharge (after three minutes): 3.70v.

P1D-CE runtimes on medium: c.a. 83' (consistent between cells) to LVC. Cells give 2.79v off the flashlight after 3 minutes rest.
 
END EDIT


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## selfbuilt (Jan 4, 2007)

Mike abcd said:


> Mine took 45 minutes to go into regulation on primary (medium) with one of AW's 3.7 V protected cells purchased about a year ago. Total run time was 65 minutes until LVC.



FYI, I'm using a fairly recent AW 3.7 protected cell (still the 750mAh, blue-wrapped kind), and I get 70 minutes until LVC on medium (primary), although it didn't fall into regulation until about 62 mins. Pretty easy to miss, if you don't plot the results.

On high, I got 30 mins until LVC, but it fell into regulation within the first 3 mins.


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## daberti (Jan 4, 2007)

selfbuilt said:


> FYI, I'm using a fairly recent AW 3.7 protected cell (still the 750mAh, blue-wrapped kind), and I get 70 minutes until LVC on medium (primary), although it didn't fall into regulation until about 62 mins. Pretty easy to miss, if you don't plot the results.
> 
> On high, I got 30 mins until LVC, but it fell into regulation within the first 3 mins.



MP batts also fall on regulation on primary, but they're unprotected .
Anyway I scored consistent runtimes with 4 MP batteries (unprotected and 700mAh rated) and that's enough for me to say they're a pain on P1D-CE (or more probably P1D-CE is a pain with them since they couple pretty well with my HDS U60-XRGT).
My 3V rech. Tenergies are on the way and I've two no brand light violet-wrapped 3.6V protected batts (from Lighthound, 1yr old and used only twice each) to test.


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## ltanzil (Jan 6, 2007)

Has any body know what is the bin of Cree XR-E being use in the P1D-CE?

Unknown VT, what bin of Cree XR-E are you using in the L1T mod?


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## SpiritLed (Jan 6, 2007)

A couple images of the P1D-CE emitter while illuminated....

Looking at an image on white cardboard of the emitter surrounded by the die body (black) and reflector







Closer... the offset of the emitter from center is observable, but not a problem in use.
The yellow discoloration (lower right) was not a stain on the cardboard.







Poor focus is not the fault of the camera - auto focus not useable even stepped down - cardboard surface texture softened the image, so everything was set manually. 

Just for fun.


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## naturelle (Jan 7, 2007)

SpiritLed said:


> The yellow discoloration (lower right) was not a stain on the cardboard.


The yellow "discoloration" seems to be normal for Cree-LEDs.
Hold an P1D-CE on low oblique onto a piece of newspaper and turn it slowly about the axis of the light. You can see the yellow spot wander with. On some Crees it seems to be intense, on some others only fragile.


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## daberti (Jan 10, 2007)

Just got my second P1D-CE from 4Seven.
This one has a pure white tint, comparable to the one of my U60 XRGT, against the more icy beam of the other one.
Output looks like being greater by 5% or so.
Peculiar to new Cree bin?


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## OutdoorIdiot (Jan 12, 2007)

I think it was this thread where someone asked if these throw further than a Streamlight Propolymer 4AA Luxeon.

I've compared the two, and am certain that the humble old SL PP 4AA L out-throws the P1D-CE at the hotspot, though not by a huge degree. Also, the figures at flashlightreviews back this up. However the hotspot of the SL PP 4AA L is very much smaller.

In terms of throw, boths lights are very impressive in their own way.

The reflector of the SL PP 4AA L does a storming job of getting a "1 watt" Luxeon LED to throw a very long way, while still, to my eyes, giving very useable spill.

The new P1D-CE does a storming job of getting a very small light, with a very small reflector, to throw almost as far. And arguably the larger hotspot makes it more useful - though that really depends on the application and personal taste.


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## UnknownVT (Jan 12, 2007)

*OutdoorIdiot* wrote: _"I've compared the two, and am certain that the humble old SL PP 4AA L out-throws the P1D-CE at the hotspot, though not by a huge degree. Also, the figures at flashlightreviews back this up. However the hotspot of the SL PP 4AA L is very much smaller._
_The new P1D-CE does a storming job of getting a very small light, with a very small reflector, to throw almost as far."_

Many thanks for that comparison input -

I also found that the humble Dorcy 1watt 3D outhrows the P1D-CE - especially since it only cost me $5.48(!)

But like you found it amazing that the P1D-CE can generate so much light and throw so far for such a small light -

I said this earlier - in post #*129* 
_"looking at the series of color removed/desaturated outdoors pampas grass beamshots in Post #_*93*_ of this thread - _
_my *GUESS*timate - _

_P1D-CE does not throw as far as the Dorcy 1watt 3D (RWAH Lux1 1watt) - _
_probably throws about on par with a Mag 3D standard incandescent...... _
_and throws further than any of the following - _
_Streamlight Scorpion xenon 2xCR123A on tightest focus, _
_LightHound V3 Rechargeable on RCR123,_
_Fenix P1 on CR123A (the control reference)_

_I can't call it between the P1D-CE and the SureFire 9P xenon 3xCR123A......"_

However the stairway beamshots in post #*100* and #*103* really show how much more light the P1D-CE outputs compared to the Dorcy 1watt 3D....... 
in those stairway shots I think the P1D-CE outdoes even the SureFire 9P (xenon 3xCR123)


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## OutdoorIdiot (Jan 12, 2007)

My apologies, UnknownVT, I forgot to compliment you on your beamshots! Very useful and informative. I looked at them (and read the whole thread) with considerable interest a few days ago, then forgot all about them before making a post. How rude!


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## UnknownVT (Jan 12, 2007)

*OutdoorIdiot* wrote: _"My apologies, UnknownVT, I forgot to compliment you on your beamshots! Very useful and informative. I looked at them (and read the whole thread) with considerable interest a few days ago, then forgot all about them before making a post. How rude!"_

Not at all! No apologies are needed, and it was not rude by any stretch of the imagination -

In fact your comparison was a very valuable reference for others who may own the SL PP 4AA - and I thank you - all I did was to show the other "throw" comparisons and to highlight that a mere 1watt LuxI can outhrow a Cree XR-E _*if*_ the right reflector is used.

Thanks for you input - and there was no need for self recrimination.....


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## kingoftf (Jan 15, 2007)

I received my Fenix P1D CE today, only one week from USA to Tenerife, very fast.
Here I´ve got some Fotos to compare the CE with a flashligt I bought a few weeks ago in a local DIY-Shop for 7,75 $, runs with 3 AAA.

The Output of the Finix is much higher than this LED-Flashlight with 12 LED inside, even on "normal"



Left Fenix, Middle Flashlight form the DIY-Store, right Microfire K500R (HID)











A hut (?) in our garden, +/- 10 Meter, almost nothing with the DIY FL






Fenix on normal !!!!






Our house, Fenix high, 20 Meter






DIY FL again almost nothing 






And here to compare, the hut and our house with the Microfire









:rock: :rock: :rock:


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## ryan_kalani (Mar 23, 2007)

Just bought one of these. Cant wait til the delivery guy comes!


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## Bushman5 (Sep 18, 2007)

naturelle said:


> You do not really think, that an airplane sees such a small light-source!?



you would be surprised at how easy it is to spot small lights from a plane...even those little keychain fob lights. 

weather permitting of course/


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