# with new CREEs everywhere what happen to lumileds?



## Illum (Feb 10, 2009)

Has the once famed Philips LumiLEDs simply given up? 
Its been one or two years since we last heard anything from them...


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## bretti_kivi (Feb 11, 2009)

*Re: with CREEs in the fast lane what happen to lumileds?*

you mean apart from 180lm Rebels and 250lm K2TFFCs being available?


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## saabluster (Feb 11, 2009)

*Re: with CREEs in the fast lane what happen to lumileds?*



bretti_kivi said:


> you mean apart from 180lm Rebels and 250lm K2TFFCs being available?


Thats exactly his point. Those do not keep up with Crees.


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## PhantomPhoton (Feb 11, 2009)

*Re: with CREEs in the fast lane what happen to lumileds?*

Not much happens to LumiLEDs really. They're still the heavyweight in the industry. Many companies have sold their souls to LumiLEDs it seems, even flashlight makers. So LumiLEDs continues to make $$ even though their products aren't quite as good as Cree. In the end I hope LumiLEDs get's their junk together, innovates and creates better stuff.


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## bretti_kivi (Feb 11, 2009)

*Re: with CREEs in the fast lane what happen to lumileds?*

what's "not as good as cree"?

A Q5 will produce 228lm @ 1A, a K2 does [email protected] Yes, it's slightly less efficient, but if Lumileds has the better marketing machine and consistent quality (in the mean time), the smaller dies (rebel) and the customer contracts, then it's up to cree to provide better products at a similar or cheaper price. If they can't do that, then they won't survive. It's called "market capitalism". 

Incumbents are hard to shift; the negativity towards Lumiled here is amazing. Please justify it? Yes, there are no multi-die LEDs from them - but then what's Ostar doing? What about Samsung? 
I disagree that there is a "fast lane" here and that a specific company is really far ahead of the others.

Bret


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## csshih (Feb 11, 2009)

*Re: with CREEs in the fast lane what happen to lumileds?*

500mAh is allot in terms of runtime, It could be the difference between 2 hours and 3 hours.

the small 22 lm increase will be almost impossible to detect with the human eye.


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## Pöbel (Feb 11, 2009)

*Re: with CREEs in the fast lane what happen to lumileds?*



bretti_kivi said:


> what's "not as good as cree"?
> 
> A Q5 will produce 228lm @ 1A, a K2 does [email protected] Yes, it's slightly less efficient, but if Lumileds has the better marketing machine and consistent quality (in the mean time), the smaller dies (rebel) and the customer contracts, then it's up to cree to provide better products at a similar or cheaper price. If they can't do that, then they won't survive. It's called "market capitalism".
> 
> ...



Why do you compare them with Q5s although the R2 is available? Rebels have small dice, but so have the XP-E Crees.


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## bretti_kivi (Feb 11, 2009)

*Re: with CREEs in the fast lane what happen to lumileds?*

let's turn the question around: 

What's so fabulous about Cree? 

Bret


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## metlarules (Feb 11, 2009)

*Re: with CREEs in the fast lane what happen to lumileds?*

Chevy,Ford,Dodge. Pick your poision. :nana:


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## tebore (Feb 11, 2009)

*Re: with CREEs in the fast lane what happen to lumileds?*

XP-E and the XR-E have the same die. It just looks smaller and smaller packaging. 

The rebel and the K2 have the same die only the packaging is smaller. 

Osram has the Diamond Dragon which is between Q5 and R2 levels of performance and the GDP is near the Q5. 

Nichia has prototypes for new LEDs which is a direct competitor to the XP-E at R2 levels of efficiency. 

Just because it's not in the news doesn't mean there's no moment from companies.

LumiLED's got no real reason to push their efficiency above Cree(which cost R&D, Cashflows are important right now). They missed out on a whole quarter with their TFFC recall. They have a well established distribution network. That combined with >100lm LEDs are enough to turn a profit or breakeven.


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## bshanahan14rulz (Feb 11, 2009)

*Re: with CREEs in the fast lane what happen to lumileds?*

the brightest min. lumens output for a neutral white rebel is 80.
there is only one bin of neutral white cree xp-e that has a min. lumens output less than 80, the rest are more.

Cree offers more efficient competition to philips, although philips already has a very well established client base. 

The way I see it, philips doesn't need to be making huge advances, they just need to kind of keep up. 

I still like Cree better....


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## blasterman (Feb 11, 2009)

*Re: with CREEs in the fast lane what happen to lumileds?*



> The way I see it, philips doesn't need to be making huge advances, they just need to kind of keep up.


 
This reminds a bit of the microprocessor industry where Intel makes a technological leap, then sits on their rear end for years because their distribution pipe is so fat they can afford to sell junk like Netburst even though there were superior alternatives.

May I remind you people again that the LED industry exists _other_ than to appease flashlight makers.



> A Q5 will produce 228lm @ 1A, a K2 does 250 @ 1.5A


 
At what CRI may I ask? 70? Seriously...I don't really care how efficient either Phillips or Cree make their emitters. If the light quality is only good enough to illuminate a parking lot (or shoot pointless beam shots of trees at night) what good is either?


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## lyyyghtmaster (Feb 12, 2009)

*Re: with CREEs in the fast lane what happen to lumileds?*

CREE sez: 75 CRI for cool and neutral and 80 for their warm white.

That is comparable to the 78 CRI T8 fluorescents that a great many commercial users are still installing in their facilities (though I admit 85 CRI tubes are also very popular.)


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## LEDninja (Feb 12, 2009)

*Re: with CREEs in the fast lane what happen to lumileds?*



blasterman said:


> May I remind you people again that the LED industry exists _other_ than to appease flashlight makers.


Agreed.
Try to build the new year Times Square ball with Crees. Especially the last one where they were going for 18.7 million colours.


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## Illum (Feb 12, 2009)

*Re: with CREEs in the fast lane what happen to lumileds?*



bretti_kivi said:


> what's Ostar doing? What about Samsung?
> I disagree that there is a "fast lane" here and that a specific company is really far ahead of the others.
> 
> Bret



well, Ostar's LEDs are relatively impractical for flashlights due to their high vf, dunno what Samsung and edisons doing either. OSRAM as been talking about a new LED for quite sometime but nothing yet.

I find it sort of odd that all the LED we yammer here constitutes as either SSC or CREE [since SSC uses CREE dies personally I can't justify SSC as an independent research/development company, more like a fabrication facility], nothing else except a little Nichia 083 here, a little diamond dragon there...then thats about it:shakehead

As far as Lumileds goes, the flip-chip K2 has been discussed to death, and nothing else after the 0100 rebels.


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## asdalton (Feb 12, 2009)

*Re: with CREEs in the fast lane what happen to lumileds?*



bretti_kivi said:


> A Q5 will produce 228lm @ 1A, a K2 does [email protected] Yes, it's slightly less efficient, but if Lumileds has the better marketing machine and consistent quality (in the mean time), the smaller dies (rebel) and the customer contracts, then it's up to cree to provide better products at a similar or cheaper price. If they can't do that, then they won't survive. It's called "market capitalism".



One thing that hasn't been mentioned in this thread yet is that the Lumileds products work very well with conventional reflectors. The Cree XR-E needs either a custom optic or an especially deep reflector. The SSC is more adaptable than the Cree in this regard, but it has a relatively large surface area that makes it difficult to produce a throwy beam compared to a K2 or Rebel emitter with the same output.

The Rebel emitter in the new stock 2D MagLED is the best throwing LED light I've ever owned.


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## saabluster (Feb 12, 2009)

*Re: with CREEs in the fast lane what happen to lumileds?*



asdalton said:


> One thing that hasn't been mentioned in this thread yet is that the Lumileds products work very well with conventional reflectors.


That is because it is a moot point now that Cree has the XP-E. In R2 bin to boot. Lumileds has nothing on Cree now other than a bunch of of colors other than white in a small footprint.


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## asdalton (Feb 12, 2009)

*Re: with CREEs in the fast lane what happen to lumileds?*

Cree *now* has the XP-E. They didn't in late 2006, when Mag started selling its Luxeon-based LED lights (and when the first Cree XR-E emitters became available). 

Now, maybe Cree can catch Mag's attention with the XP-E and steal that market away from Lumileds. But maybe not. Lumileds got a head start in the mainstream flashlight market by landing a contract with Mag, and the costs of switching to a new emitter are not trivial. Mag has already upgraded from the Luxeon III to the Rebel, and given Mag's historical pace, it's going to be a long time before they'll be looking for something newer.


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## znomit (Feb 12, 2009)

*Re: with CREEs in the fast lane what happen to lumileds?*

What do you mean fast lane? 
The moved out of the fast lane in 2007
No new bins for over a year... :shakehead


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## Illum (Feb 12, 2009)

*Re: with CREEs in the fast lane what happen to lumileds?*

I was referring to the speed in which the successive bins were being cranked out.

P4-Q2-Q3-Q4-Q5-R2...R5
All in what? within a year?!
they might not be in the fast lane any longer...but while they were, clearly stomped any other media attention seen on the forum
but fine, I had it edited


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## Cuso (Feb 12, 2009)

Illum_the_nation said:


> Has the once famed Philips LumiLEDs simply given up?
> Its been one or two years since we last heard anything from them...


Given up?? This guys are hangin back and still profiting from the old Lux series ( [email protected] anyone) . The K2 series in TFFC smokes anything made by CREE, the tint is great, can handle more current , and although a bit less eficient , its just hell bright. INOVA is using K2 TFFC in their lights, Dorcy is using K2 and rebel in their lights, and ARC had to sell theirs in auctions ( I heard the damn thing is so bright the converter can't handle the "heat") . So if you ask me, Lumileds is doing fine... BTW the new K2 TFFC are out:

http://www.cpfmarketplace.com/mp/showthread.php?t=190729

http://www.cpfmarketplace.com/mp/showthread.php?t=190658


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## Illum (Feb 12, 2009)

hmm, well...in my defense Lumileds may be profiting from a long term contract...but yeah...those links just threw the discussion topic out the window


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## tebore (Feb 12, 2009)

You know what I've always wondered. Why can't they all the technology that's in the K2 in the the Lux 3? Or why did they change the shape of the package?


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## saabluster (Feb 13, 2009)

:thinking:


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## metlarules (Feb 13, 2009)

Looks to me that Luxeon is right there with cree on their new emitters.
220 to 260 lumens at 1a sounds good to me.


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## saabluster (Feb 13, 2009)

Cuso said:


> The K2 series in TFFC smokes anything made by CREE,


Pleeeese tell me your joking. 
Even if you made the wrong assumption that every K2 they shipped was at the very top of this newly released bin it still would not beat Cree's R2 bin. Most likely almost all of them shipped are closer to [email protected] than the high side of the bin at [email protected] 






Cuso said:


> the tint is great,


Depends on how you faired in the lottery.



Cuso said:


> can handle more current


It has to because it is....drum roll...



Cuso said:


> , and although a bit less eficient ,


 less efficient. 



Cuso said:


> its just hell bright.


Uhh:thinking: No its not.





Cuso said:


> I heard the damn thing is so bright the converter can't handle the "heat") . So if you ask me, Lumileds is doing fine...


I think what you meant to say is it is so _inefficient_ the converter can't handle the heat.




Cuso said:


> BTW the new K2 TFFC are out:


Woo Hoo! You mean I can by the brand new Luxeons that take more power just to equal a Cree in output. I can't wait for the increased heat and reduced runtime. Oh yeah and one more thing. Why would you want the higher CRI that comes with the brighter, more efficient Cree LEDs. High CRI is for sissies. Seriously people.:shakehead


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## saabluster (Feb 13, 2009)

metlarules said:


> Looks to me that Luxeon is right there with cree on their new emitters.
> 220 to 260 lumens at 1a sounds good to me.


Do you really think they are shipping K2s that are at the top of the bin?


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## easilyled (Feb 13, 2009)

*Re: with CREEs in the fast lane what happen to lumileds?*



tebore said:


> Osram has the Diamond Dragon which is between Q5 and R2 levels of performance and the GDP is near the Q5.



Actually the NY bin Diamond Dragon which is available now and has been used in some lights for sale on B/S/T is rated at 330-390 lumens at 1.4A

That seems significantly higher than any other single-die led that I'm aware of.


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## tebore (Feb 13, 2009)

*Re: with CREEs in the fast lane what happen to lumileds?*



easilyled said:


> Actually the NY bin Diamond Dragon which is available now and has been used in some lights for sale on B/S/T is rated at 330-390 lumens at 1.4A
> 
> That seems significantly higher than any other single-die led that I'm aware of.



I was under the impression that they are very rare. Which is why I didn't mention it. But I was trying following the release of them. I believe it's around 130lm at 350mA no? Nichia also has an LED with that kind of efficiency at 350mA as well I believe.


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## HumanLumen (Feb 13, 2009)

I think the main thing here is Lumileds sets themselves up for a fall so even when they bring out a product that is 'ok' people are dissapointed. They said 2 years ago that they had fundamentally solved the droop problem, but that theory has been questioned. They said they would roll out the improvemnts from Q4 2007 for about the next 18 months (IIRC) but we have only seen the TFFC - no anti-droop, no lumiramic or any other steps forward in neally two years. I am sure that they have made progress but their premature press releases have caught them out in the past - hey, maybe that's why they have gone quiet.......

HL


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## tebore (Feb 13, 2009)

HumanLumen said:


> I think the main thing here is Lumileds sets themselves up for a fall so even when they bring out a product that is 'ok' people are dissapointed. They said 2 years ago that they had fundamentally solved the droop problem, but that theory has been questioned. They said they would roll out the improvemnts from Q4 2007 for about the next 18 months (IIRC) but we have only seen the TFFC - no anti-droop, no lumiramic or any other steps forward in neally two years. I am sure that they have made progress but their premature press releases have caught them out in the past - hey, maybe that's why they have gone quiet.......
> 
> HL



Correct me if I'm wrong but TFFC and Lumiramic rolled out at the same time or close to. Current TFFC K2 and rebels are using a ceramic phosphor plate. It's one of the reasons why they can take higher temps and higher currents because it's not cooking the phosphor.


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## ledstein (Feb 13, 2009)

We only see a part of the picture. A large chunk of LED market is in stuff like display backlighting and automotive. Also Lumileds is Philips now which owns also the well known Color Kinetics and tons other factories. 

If they are behind Cree now it doesnt mean it will be the same on the long term.


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## easilyled (Feb 13, 2009)

*Re: with CREEs in the fast lane what happen to lumileds?*



tebore said:


> I was under the impression that they are very rare. Which is why I didn't mention it. But I was trying following the release of them. I believe it's around 130lm at 350mA no? Nichia also has an LED with that kind of efficiency at 350mA as well I believe.



ArcMania released his MegaMicro which uses this bin and he also sold about 30 of the leds separately (very recently).

I can't profess to know what the efficiency of the NY DD is at 350ma but if it is 130 lumens at 350ma as you mention, which seems quite likely, 
then its output is clearly well above the maximum quoted for an R2-XRE and a U2-SSC-P4.

It seems to me that with the small footprint of the package as well as its output, 
it should be able to throw dramatically well in conjunction with a well-designed optic.


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## tebore (Feb 13, 2009)

*Re: with CREEs in the fast lane what happen to lumileds?*



easilyled said:


> ArcMania released his MegaMicro which uses this bin and he also sold about 30 of the leds separately (very recently).
> 
> I can't profess to know what the efficiency of the NY DD is at 350ma but if it is 130 lumens at 350ma as you mention, which seems quite likely,
> then its output is clearly well above the maximum quoted for an R2-XRE and a U2-SSC-P4.
> ...



The only downside I can see to Osram emitters are the tints. In the past you were not able to specify bins when ordering. I believe they are changing that now at least I remember reading something along those lines in a recent article. One thing I just want to mention is right at the moment it seems Cree and LumiLED are the only ones with a decent tint dispersion. The SSC U2, Osram and to an Extent the nichias have terrible tint shift when you move towards or away from the the die.


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## easilyled (Feb 13, 2009)

*Re: with CREEs in the fast lane what happen to lumileds?*



tebore said:


> The only downside I can see to Osram emitters are the tints. In the past you were not able to specify bins when ordering. I believe they are changing that now at least I remember reading something along those lines in a recent article. One thing I just want to mention is right at the moment it seems Cree and LumiLED are the only ones with a decent tint dispersion. The SSC U2, Osram and to an Extent the nichias have terrible tint shift when you move towards or away from the the die.



Thanks. That's interesting. 

I know very little about them other than their impressive output.

I haven't seen how their output varies with different current, likewise for their Vf and don't know how well
they handle heat build-up nor how their longevity is affected at 1.4A.

This would all be very useful in terms of evaluating against other well-known products.


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## tebore (Feb 13, 2009)

*Re: with CREEs in the fast lane what happen to lumileds?*



easilyled said:


> Thanks. That's interesting.
> 
> I know very little about them other than their impressive output.
> 
> ...



I should be clear I wasn't referring to the DD specifically I was talking about Osram products (single die) in general. The GDP has this "Issue" I believe top bin GDPs are in the 120-130lm at 350mA range right now.


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## metlarules (Feb 13, 2009)

saabluster said:


> Do you really think they are shipping K2s that are at the top of the bin?


 Yes I do! http://www.cpfmarketplace.com/mp/showthread.php?t=190658


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## saabluster (Feb 13, 2009)

metlarules said:


> Yes I do! http://www.cpfmarketplace.com/mp/showthread.php?t=190658



No. :sigh: Not the top bin, the top _of_ the bin. Notice the specs.

*Flux: U - 220 to 260 Lumens @ 1000mA

*That is a huge span within that bin. You really think you are getting 260lm LEDs shipped to you. Highly unlikely.*
*


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## easilyled (Feb 14, 2009)

saabluster said:


> No. :sigh: Not the top bin, the top _of_ the bin. Notice the specs.
> 
> *Flux: U - 220 to 260 Lumens @ 1000mA
> 
> ...



Although the TNC Sales Thread says flux U is between 220 - 260 lumens,
The Lumileds Chart on the Sticky Thread lists Flux U as being between 220 - 240 lumens.


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## saabluster (Feb 14, 2009)

easilyled said:


> Although the TNC Sales Thread says flux U is between 220 - 260 lumens,
> The Lumileds Chart on the Sticky Thread lists Flux U as being between 220 - 240 lumens.


The Lumileds PDF says 220-260.


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## LEDninja (Feb 14, 2009)

Does it matter if the K2 is 220-240 or 220-260 lumens?

I had a disagreement over the SSC-P7 C-bin then rated at 740-900 lumens. I kept using 740 lumens. Another member (and all the P7 torch manufacturers in DX) use 900 lumens. jtr1962 finally got a sample and measured 741 lumens.

Allowing for normal distribution there is a 99% chance the new K2 U bin is more than 220 lumens at 1000 mA but only 1% chance of 240 or 260 lumens.

-

Within CPF the output at 1500 mA or higher is probably more important than the output at 1000 mA. Most of the high output throw lights are already using XRE-R2 LEDs at 1400 mA way above what Cree has qualified the LED.
With a lot of members wanting P7/MCE brightness in a light with throw I see a lot of K2 lights driven at 1500 or 2000 mA coming. Even 3000 mA if the K2 does not smoke at that current.


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## baterija (Feb 14, 2009)

LEDninja said:


> Allowing for normal distribution there is a 99% chance the new K2 U bin is more than 220 lumens at 1000 mA but only 1% chance of 240 or 260 lumens.



In my opinion, it's unreasonable to assume that each bin is normally distributed for output. Different bins are produced in the same production process. It's after the fact testing that labels them with a flux bin. 

As an assumption it probably makes more sense to assume that the overall output of the process approximates a normal distribution. If that's the case the highest bin for the process is in the upper tail with rapid drop off in probability as you move up in flux.


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## metlarules (Feb 14, 2009)

saabluster said:


> No. :sigh: Not the top bin, the top _of_ the bin. Notice the specs.
> 
> *Flux: U - 220 to 260 Lumens @ 1000mA*
> 
> That is a huge span within that bin. You really think you are getting 260lm LEDs shipped to you.Highly unlikely.


 The difference between 220 lumens and 260 lumens is smaller than you think.


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## likeguymontag (Feb 14, 2009)

baterija said:


> As an assumption it probably makes more sense to assume that the overall output of the process approximates a normal distribution.



I believe I saw this stated as fact on some Lumileds document discussing binning. Unfortunately, they probably keep the actual distribution a tightly held secret.


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## rmteo (Feb 15, 2009)

Just out of curiosity, I did a search on the availability of Rebels. Found one distributor that had LXML-PWC1-0090 (cool white, 90 lumens @ 350mA, 160 lumens @ 700mA, $3.30 each 250+) in stock here:
http://www.futureelectronics.com/en...tters/white/Pages/5441670-LXML-PWC1-0090.aspx
They have 492,500 pcs. in stock and 1,251,500 pcs. in reserve. They also have many other variants of Rebels in stock in large quantities.

In comparison, availability of Cree's from distribution is much more limited. In general, distributors have several hundred to maybe several thousand in stock. Looks like Lumileds is doing OK.


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## baterija (Feb 15, 2009)

likeguymontag said:


> I believe I saw this stated as fact on some Lumileds document discussing binning. Unfortunately, they probably keep the actual distribution a tightly held secret.



That seemed counterintuitive so I started hunting. In the K2 with TFFC datasheet (link to PDF) they have this.



> Flux Performance, Binning, and Supportability
> LEDs are produced with semiconductor technology that is subject to process variation, yielding a range of flux performance that is approximately Gaussian in nature. In order to provide customers with fine granularity *within the overall flux distribution*, Philips Lumileds separates LEDs into fixed, easy to design with, minimum luminous flux bins. To verify supportability of parts chosen for your application design, please consult your Philips Lumileds/Future Lighting Solutions sales representative.


Right below that text was this image:






I'm sure the actual distribution varies as they tweak the process so we can never be sure where the bin separations fall within the distribution. It seems pretty clear that they were not saying the individual bins are normally distributed though. The top bin available for sale will then just be the upper tail of the distribution.


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## saabluster (Feb 15, 2009)

rmteo said:


> Just out of curiosity, I did a search on the availability of Rebels. Found one distributor that had LXML-PWC1-0090 (cool white, 90 lumens @ 350mA, 160 lumens @ 700mA, $3.30 each 250+) in stock here:
> http://www.futureelectronics.com/en...tters/white/Pages/5441670-LXML-PWC1-0090.aspx
> They have 492,500 pcs. in stock and 1,251,500 pcs. in reserve. They also have many other variants of Rebels in stock in large quantities.
> 
> In comparison, availability of Cree's from distribution is much more limited. In general, distributors have several hundred to maybe several thousand in stock. Looks like Lumileds is doing OK.



You are making some assumptions here. First off I don't think the idea of this thread was whether or not Lumileds was doing good or bad as a company(this idea seems to keep popping up in this thread). I think(will need confirmation from the OP) this was about the silence from Lumileds from a technology standpoint. I think Lumileds is doing fine financially. I would not use stock at suppliers as a gauge of that however just as I would not gauge how well GM or Chrysler were doing based on their stock of cars. They may just have a lot of stock because they can't sell the product. Conversly Cree's distributers may not have much stock because they quickly turn over what they recieve.


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