# ethanol blend vs ethanol free gas in small engines



## Poppy (Oct 25, 2020)

About 8 years ago I was in a small engine repair shop to get a part for my snow blower, and perhaps a better muffler for my generator. The gent there mentioned that he has a lot of those made in Japan and made in China generators, in for repair, because the ethanol in gas craps up the carburetors. This was shortly after Hurricane Sandy and a lot of people found that their generator wouldn't start. IIRC the ethanol corroded the inside of the carb. 

Here are points made in another thread: 16 years ago.



turbodog said:


> It degrades certain types of rubber and will also corrode certain metals (AL I think).
> 
> It absorbs and attracts water (hydroscopic), so that bring on corrosion/etc problems from water accumulation in tanks/jugs/etc.





Moat said:


> Roth - 10% ethanol gasoline blend will give slightly less power and fuel mileage (a few percent), as ethanol has considerably less energy, per gallon, than gasoline. Otherwise, it is considered safe in about any later model auto (within 10-15 years old, maybe? Somebody know?).
> 
> Now, _methanol_ is the nasty one - very corrosive and reactive with rubbers/polymers/living tissue. Poisonous! I think I recall some oil companies supplying a limited amount of methanol blends at the pump (?) years ago - until a wave of fuel system problems cropped up.



in 1986 I bought a used 17 year old Simplicity 7 hp Briggs powered snow blower. For years I would shut the fuel off, and run the carb dry. An old timer said to me that will let the gaskets dry out, and that he leaves fuel in his small engines. This was before ethanol blended fuel. After a while the metal tank rusted out, and the shut-off valve failed, and the carb stayed wet. Every few years I'd have to gumout the carb.

For the last 20 years, I didn't have a shutoff valve in my 10 HP Briggs snow blower, I didn't run it dry, and didn't use Stabil. I think most summers, I'd start it and let it run for a few minutes, then again in late Fall just to be sure it would run when needed. Last year, I think was the first time I had to use gumout to start it, and it had a surging idle, so I had to run it on part choke. 

Hanging at a Ford forum, and a couple of Bronco forums, I learned that condensation occurs inside the gas tank, more so if it is partially full, less so if it is kept full. The metal tank in my very old snow blower rusted out to the point it had to be replaced. I didn't store it full, and it lived out doors. I imagine the tank would have lived longer if I topped it off after each use, but then the engine would have been running on at least year old gas when first started. Trade offs in life I guess.

So all in all, I would say that I haven't had any issues with ethanol blended fuels

I recently bought a Harbor Freight generator, and it said nothing about ethanol fuel, other than it can run on it, and requires the use of a gas stabilizer (such as Stabil) or that would void the warranty.

Have the manufacturers changed the composition of carburetor gaskets, or of the metal in the carbs to be less reactive?
Has ethanol gotten a bad reputation because it was really Methanol that caused the problems? Is it now just an urban legend?


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## orbital (Oct 25, 2020)

+

Several years ago I called on a VW wagon (manual trans) locally,, the first thing I asked was what type of fuel they ran in the car. He said non-ethonal gas, so it was a car I almost bought.
To say I'm an opponent of alcohol in gas is the understatement of all time.

Alcohol in gas: supported by people who charge you to work on your engines & the people who produce it. 
*(also supported by people who don't want to spend the difference, because it would cut into their scratch games & cigarette budget)


*_side note: I stopped using ethanol gas in the late 80s',, why would be a longish post regarding an engineering family I knew._


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## Poppy (Oct 25, 2020)

orbital,
I don't think one can find ethanol free gas at the pump anywhere in NJ.

It is sold by the quart, at the Home Depot, and Lowes for about $6 a quart ~ $25 a gallon.


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## scout24 (Oct 25, 2020)

Ethanol is the devil. Aluminum corrodes in water, which ethanol attracts, and passages clog. I'd rather replace a $2.00 bowl gasket or drain plug gasket if they rot than spend the time going through a carb. Side note: I have a small Honda rototiller for turning over Mrs. Scout's raised garden beds. Wouldn't start this spring even after disassembling the carb and giving it a bath in the ultrasonic cleaner. I had several hours in it at this point. Local dealer ordered a carb for me, a whopping $16.00 plus tax. Sometimes it's worth pricing before goi g all out trying to resurrect.


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## turbodog (Oct 25, 2020)

If you've got something really old then you could have a problem with galvanic corrosion. I have not seen it be a problem in a long time though.

There's the problem of it attracting moisture from the air. My solution to this has been to use jugs which seal tightly and keep the tank full when I put something away. Also, a periodic draining of the float bowl helps... but honestly the only machine this is a problem for is my pressure washer.

Ethanol is also an excellent solvent that will attack old gummy deposits in your fuel system, breaking them free, and sends them downstream to clog the carb jets. However, once clean... I'd say this is actually a benefit.

To answer your questions... I'd say it's a LOT of urban legend at this time. Carb gaskets do eventually dry out, but that will happen regardless if the carb is drained or not and takes many years in any case.

It's interesting to note... I can't drain the carb on my chainsaws/2 stroke equipment. I also have zero problems with them cranking/running... sometimes sitting for years between runs.

Of all my stuff the only thing I have chronic problems with are the honda eu2000 generators. I have to drain their carbs. All other stuff I usually just let it sit as-is.


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## orbital (Oct 25, 2020)

Poppy said:


> orbital,
> I don't think one can find ethanol free gas at the pump anywhere in NJ.
> 
> It is sold by the quart, at the Home Depot, and Lowes for about $6 a quart ~ $25 a gallon.



+

Then use Stabil _

or
_ 
Stabil & adding a few drops of 2-stroke oil.


Also, run your motor a few times a year, that'll do it all favors


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## greenpondmike (Oct 25, 2020)

Non ethanol gas in Cafe Junction off of exit 97 of I-59 runs $2.72-2.79 a gallon. My truck runs real good on it compaired to ethanol fuels. I mix a little 2 stroke oil when using ethanol.


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## bykfixer (Oct 25, 2020)

I use marine fuel stabilizer and if the equipment is good to start with it I have zero issues with ethanol in my gasoline. I have 2 cars in mothball mode that easily start once every couple of years. I used Lucas marine at 5x the reccomended dose. Each tank received 5 gallons of high octane and 25 gallons worth of stabilizer. Now the day they become ready for the road again I will drain the tank but while in storage the ethanol is not an issue. The red stabil was not as good. When I switched to the marine (green or blue) all of my ethanol issues were gone. Farmers and car collectors raved about it so I figured why not and it was definitely worth the extra cost. 

I had an Echo trimmer that sucked from day one so even using pure fuel it gave me grief. 

One day while doing my dads yard with a good mower and that trimmer his next door neighbor who had a junky old craftsman mower that started first pull. Mrs Fixer was cutting the grass while I was trying to get that dam trimmer to go. Suddenly my good mower stopped while the neighbors old piece of junk was breezing through 12" high grass. Rrrrrr. 

I smashed the weedeater over the lawn mower like I was a rock star smashing his guitar. Mrs Fixer and I were dating and it freaked her out to see me have a tantrum like that. My pop said "let him go he'll run out of steam soon enough". A filter and spark plug (and a handle repair) got the mower going again. The trimmer……that took a little more than that but it ran again that day. 

I fought it for about 10 more years. This year I said "ENOUGH!!" and bought another trimmer. I also bought a gallon of pre-mixed pure fuel. Yeah it was $18 but it was all gasoline and will last a couple of years. 

I run my mower all year. During winter I use it to vacuum leaves for use with the summers grass clipping for home made lawn fertilizer. So no need to drain the tank. It is harder to start in cold weather than warm but never more than a few pulls. My new trimmer starts first pull and idles correctly. Holy Moley that took some getting used to. 

My snow remover is the 2 legged variety (ie me and mr shovel). But we don't get all that much snow where I live. My other yard tools are electric.


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## Lynx_Arc (Oct 25, 2020)

I remember my weedeater being destroyed by ethanol fuel (I call it boozaline) it seems small engines ethanol can mess them up. I use non boozaline now in my mower and blower as I have an electric and a 20v string trimmer now. I could probably get by with boozaline in my mower but the real gas stays good over the winter in it and in the gas can I've never had problems with it sitting for 6 months I don't know about the boozaline though.


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## turbodog (Oct 25, 2020)

scout24 said:


> Ethanol is the devil. Aluminum corrodes in water, which ethanol attracts, and passages clog. I'd rather replace a $2.00 bowl gasket or drain plug gasket if they rot than spend the time going through a carb. Side note: I have a small Honda rototiller for turning over Mrs. Scout's raised garden beds. Wouldn't start this spring even after disassembling the carb and giving it a bath in the ultrasonic cleaner. I had several hours in it at this point. Local dealer ordered a carb for me, a whopping $16.00 plus tax. Sometimes it's worth pricing before goi g all out trying to resurrect.



Yeah. I'll give a flaky carb a try or two, but replacement ones are pretty cheap. You get a new carb, which means no clogs and all new gaskets, diaphragms, etc.


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## Poppy (Oct 26, 2020)

scout24 said:


> Ethanol is the devil. Aluminum corrodes in water, which ethanol attracts, and passages clog. I'd rather replace a $2.00 bowl gasket or drain plug gasket if they rot than spend the time going through a carb. Side note: I have a small Honda rototiller for turning over Mrs. Scout's raised garden beds. Wouldn't start this spring even after disassembling the carb and giving it a bath in the ultrasonic cleaner. I had several hours in it at this point. *Local dealer ordered a carb for me, a whopping $16.00 plus tax. Sometimes it's worth pricing before goi g all out trying to resurrect*.


 emphasis mine




turbodog said:


> Yeah. I'll give a flaky carb a try or two, but replacement ones are pretty cheap. You get a new carb, which means no clogs and all new gaskets, diaphragms, etc.


I was recently shocked to find that a replacement carb for my Briggs 10 HP was a mere $15. It included, not just the carb and gasket, but a fuel filter, priming bulb, spark plug, priming hose, four hose clamps, and a fuel shut off valve. How in the world can American manufacturing compete with that price?

The problem with a NO start, ended up being a bad magneto, so I now have a spare carburetor.


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## scout24 (Oct 26, 2020)

Bykfixer mentions red Stabil and blue Stabil above: My favorite preservative for years now has been Star-Tron. Looks like Windex but works much better. I also really like SeaFoam as a restorative- If it's not running well but will start, some SeaFoam at multiples of the recommended dosing has cleaned up several carbs for me and gotten stuff running right. It won't get rid of years of neglect, but it works.


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## hsa (Oct 26, 2020)

I've been using Star-Tron for a few years now and my stuff starts and runs fine. What convinced you that it is an improvement over Stabil? It does look like Windex.


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## orbital (Oct 26, 2020)

+

SeaFoam is an interesting one,, imagine the guy who threw those ingredients together to fix stuff/solve a problem.
I still have more than 1/3 gallon on my shelf.

Side story:::

not far from me there is a Vietnam Vet who had a small engine repair business,, I think he did rather well fixing things caused literally from people using ethanol in their stuff.
One day I noticed a big SALE sign outside & drove up to take a look because I sooo wanted a mint 2-stroke mower (because of high blade speed)
He had tons of stuff for sale, you name it & if it had a motor, he was selling it.

there wasn't a good mower so we talked a bit & he told he he was retiring. 

He basically told me his sequence on getting in a 2-stroke unit in for tune-up:
First he would add ATF fluid to some 100% gas, run the item full throttle (blowing lots of smoke) to cleanse the fuel system.
..then he would clean the air filter in gas, or replace, put fresh gas in it, a new plug & then adjust the carb.
Give the machine a clean & done.

btw:: I asked him what he's doing with all the stuff if it doesn't sell,,,, he said he was putting everything through the woodchipper___ I said 'really'_____ he a said "REALLY"!

*must have been a really medieval woodchipper.......*:devil:


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## idleprocess (Oct 26, 2020)

Ethanol-free gasoline at the pump is not available in the DFW region - I'd have to trek more than 90 minutes out of the metro area to source some. Alternatively, Home Despot sells the likes of TruFuel priced at a mere _*~$21/gallon*_. 

When I was still using my gasoline lawn mower, depleting the fuel can at the end of season as best possible then running the mower dry was a successful strategy. My only fuel issues with outdoor power equipment was trying to use some known bad gas I pumped out of a truck under the assumption that a small outdoor power equipment engine would be tolerant. Nope - haven't run that lawnmower or chipper since and probably need to learn some small engine repair basics to get it running again.


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## markr6 (Oct 26, 2020)

There's a station in town, the only one I know of, right next to where I work. So just for peace of mind I fill up there for use in my mower, trimmer and leaf blower. It's around $3.29/gal right now (regular 87 is $2.09). I only go through maybe 6 gallons all summer-fall.

I do like the trufuel for my chainsaw since that 1L bottle lasts a long time.


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## Poppy (Oct 26, 2020)

idleprocess,
You might try dropping the fuel bowl and cleaning it out, then use some Gumout. Put in fresh gas and give it a try. Starting fluid will some times start an engine that has been sitting for a while too.

If you pour the "bad gas" into a visible see through container, you may see water settle to the bottom. I have used some pretty stale gas in my lawn mower, because I didn't have a better way to get rid of it. I may have added some fresh gas, and if so, if I had the option, I would have added high test.


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## Lynx_Arc (Oct 26, 2020)

I guess we are lucky as the largest convenience store chain here their newer stores all sell real gas (no booze) and a lot of the smaller independent stations sell it too. For a long time I used only real gas in my car but when I started driving a long distance to work and finances were very tight I reluctantly went back to boozaline and didn't notice much of a difference other than a slight loss in gas mileage but about 20 cents a gallon or more cheaper it has saved me a lot of money. 
I may try running some ATF through my blower as it either needs a filter cleaning or has clogged fuel issues. 
I am thinking mower engines handle boozaline better than the smaller weedeater engines do. Not sure how the fuel damages the smaller small engines something about it getting hotter and burning them up somehow I've heard. Maybe it is 2 cycle vs 4 cycle engines with boozaline that is the issue. I'm lucky that real gas is readily available here about 20-30 cents a gallon at certain gas stations. The largest chain of stations here Quik Trip their newer stations have real gas pumps (7 years old and newer I think) I used to buy it for my car but when I started driving a lot more for work reason I reluctantly went to boozaline as my budget was extremely tight. Luckily my car did ok with it and about $150 or so a year savings has helped.


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## Poppy (Oct 26, 2020)

Lynx_Arc said:


> I guess we are lucky as the largest convenience store chain here their newer stores all sell real gas (no booze) <SNIP>



When I was in school in Georgia, the gas station convenience stores didn't sell booze either, but they did sell beer!


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## idleprocess (Oct 26, 2020)

Poppy said:


> idleprocess,
> You might try dropping the fuel bowl and cleaning it out, then use some Gumout. Put in fresh gas and give it a try. Starting fluid will some times start an engine that has been sitting for a while too.



My _remediation_ efforts on the mower a few years ago consisted of a can of 93 octane gas and a number of pulls without success. Last time I tried the chipper it would run on partial choke, which I suspect was not good for it.

I'll likely need to replace parts on both at this point.


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## Chauncey Gardiner (Oct 26, 2020)

My 4-stroke equipment hasn't exhibited any (known) ill effects from ethanol fuel. The 2-stroke equipment hasten't faired as well. I've recently purchased an electric chainsaw, pole pruner, and hedge trimmer. :twothumbs


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## Poppy (Oct 26, 2020)

idleprocess said:


> My _remediation_ efforts on the mower a few years ago consisted of a can of 93 octane gas and a number of pulls without success. Last time I tried the chipper it would run on partial choke, which I suspect was not good for it.
> 
> I'll likely need to replace parts on both at this point.


You might try a shot of starter fluid in the carb, and give it a couple of pulls. If it putts a few times, then you're getting spark, if not... then pull the plug reconnect it and hold the body of the plug against the head of the engine. In relative darkness give it a few pulls and try to SEE if there is a little spark jump the gap in the plug. If not, then the problem may not at all be your gas and carburetor.

Regarding running on partial choke, I really don't think that would hurt anything at all.


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## Lynx_Arc (Oct 26, 2020)

I just read why ethanol can be doom to small engines. The article I read says the alcohol absorbs water but isn't bonded to the gas itself and can damage seals of the engine and also doesn't want to burn properly. I will just stick to boozeless gas as the article equates an additive that bonds the water to the gas fixes that issue and I doubt it is cheaper than buying boozlessaline. 
I also want a 20v chainsaw and pole pruner but they are rather costly for the minimal amount of use they would incur I'm better off getting out the corded pole pruner saw and using it. For me most gas powered tools would not be used often enough to pay for themselves a corded tool suffices a lot cheaper even though the hassle of the cord is irritating the maintenance of gas powered tools is more irritating.


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## turbodog (Oct 26, 2020)

idleprocess said:


> My _remediation_ efforts on the mower a few years ago consisted of a can of 93 octane gas and a number of pulls without success. Last time I tried the chipper it would run on partial choke, which I suspect was not good for it.
> 
> I'll likely need to replace parts on both at this point.



If it will run on part choke, I would add a hefty dose of sea-foam. Then run on as little choke as needed to see if it clears up. So long as you are not blowing black smoke (too rich) you should be ok.

Otherwise, pull carb, float bowl, float, and jet. Clean jet holes with stiff wire. Reassemble. Plenty of youtube videos on this.


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## turbodog (Oct 26, 2020)

If anecdotal stuff helps... I own the following, run plain ethanol gas in all of it, and only have problem with the honda eu2000 (they are very sensitive).

~15 engines: chainsaws, pressure washers, generators, trimmers, hedge clippers, push mowers, riding mowers, tillers

Get gas jugs with TIGHT lids. Keep tanks full when not in use. Additive of your choice when storing for winter. Try and run little used engines few times a year if possible... (generators, pressure washer, mowers during wintertime).

I'm on the gulf coast where humidity is high. Not sure what effect northern climates would have...


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## raggie33 (Oct 26, 2020)

Battery power is way better unless your a prostitute


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## raggie33 (Oct 26, 2020)

Spell check hates me I mean the long word for pro


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## Poppy (Oct 26, 2020)

I really have to wonder... how much water can 10% ethanol absorb?

We used to throw a can or two of "Dry Gas"* into our car's gas tank before winter to try to prevent water from freezing in the lines or fuel filter.

All through my childhood and into my early 20's my dad had boats. Probably from condensation in the tanks, it was not uncommon for us to get underway, and have the engine sputter for a little bit, or maybe even stall. We got really good at dropping the carburetor bowl, dumping the water overboard, and starting the engine with a shot or two... or maybe three of ether, and getting back under way.

Granted, this was before ethanol.



> Drygas is an alcohol-based additive used in automobiles to prevent any water in the fuel from freezing, or to restore combustive power to gasoline spoiled by water. The name Drygas is actually a registered trademarked brand name, owned by Cristy Corporation. Wikipedia


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## Lynx_Arc (Oct 26, 2020)

Poppy said:


> I really have to wonder... how much water can 10% ethanol absorb?
> 
> We used to throw a can or two of "Dry Gas"* into our car's gas tank before winter to try to prevent water from freezing in the lines or fuel filter.
> 
> ...


I don't know how much water it can hold but think of gas line dryer you put a small bottle of it in a vehicle gas tank and I thinking that probably makes for less than 1% concentration.


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## Poppy (Oct 26, 2020)

Lynx_Arc said:


> I don't know how much water it can hold but think of gas line dryer you put a small bottle of it in a vehicle gas tank and I thinking that probably makes for less than 1% concentration.


Agreed! Point well taken.


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## orbital (Oct 26, 2020)

+

I own two Ariens snowblowers, one is from the late 70s' & another I bought new 5 years ago at a power equipment implement center.
The new one had a sticker on it saying 'use only non-ethanol gas'._ Thought that was interesting because it looked like a factory sticker.
_
Asked the sales guy; he said it was their sticker & they started putting those on everything because all they were doing was servicing/warranting machines because of ethanol gas.

***My older Ariens has been outside my garage (under a tarp) for now five years, with the coldest of winters & hot humid summers.
Haven't started it in all that time..
I'll put $20 down that if I put a extension cord to it's electric start, prime & choke it, that it fires right up.


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## Poppy (Oct 26, 2020)

orbital said:


> +
> 
> I own two Ariens snowblowers, one is from the late 70s' & another I bought new 5 years ago at a power equipment implement center.
> The new one had a sticker on it saying 'use only non-ethanol gas'._ Thought that was interesting because it looked like a factory sticker.
> ...


Oh NO!!! I wouldn't touch that bet with a Twenty Dollar Bill! ;-)

Although five years under a tarp, you may have a family of squirrels chewing on your fuel line. Or like me, one year I had a spider make a nest inside the carburetor of my generator. And another time one made a nest inside the feeder tube of my gas grill.


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## adnj (Oct 26, 2020)

I am able to use 100% gasoline - no alcohol. I have stored it in polyethylene containers that were airtight for a year with no problems. I use synthetic two-stroke oil for mixes and it does well with no stabilizer for months at a time - also stored in an airtight container.

I like to run my carburetors out if I plan on storing any small engine for more than a month.



Sent from my LG-V520 using Tapatalk


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## bykfixer (Oct 26, 2020)

raggie33 said:


> Spell check hates me I mean the long word for pro




Wait for it…………


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## turbodog (Oct 26, 2020)

raggie33 said:


> Battery power is way better unless your a prostitute



pretty hilarious...


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## turbodog (Oct 26, 2020)

adnj said:


> I am able to use 100% gasoline - no alcohol. I have stored it in polyethylene containers that were airtight for a year with no problems. I use synthetic two-stroke oil for mixes and it does well with no stabilizer for months at a time - also stored in an airtight container.
> 
> I like to run my carburetors out if I plan on storing any small engine for more than a month.
> 
> ...



In my personal experience the 'month' thing is needless. Have a chainsaw that rarely gets used... like once every 2-3 years for special projects. Leave it full of ethanol gas and it always starts on 2-3 pulls. Stihl 026. For that matter, all my 2 stroke stuff starts on 2-3 pulls, but that chainsaw goes longest between uses.


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## adnj (Oct 26, 2020)

IIRC, Stihl and Husqvarna recommend running dry if stored for 6 months or more. One month's storage is just my personal metric so I don't know how it works for people who store for years at a time.

In general, I probably pull more two-stroke maintenance on carbs, bulbs and fuellines than most. I will clean and swap out parts before failure. 



Sent from my LG-V520 using Tapatalk


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## scout24 (Oct 27, 2020)

Whatever additives you use, whatever type of fuel you use, please just make sure to run your equipment often enough and long enough each time to not have fuel sit too long in one place in the machine. Orbital- this is for you...  This machine had sat for "a few years" and the customer couldn't get it started. (snowblower) Added fuel to dry tank, checked spark, and it popped over on starting fluid. My co-worker Walter pulled the carb off and hollered "Holy Cow!" This was the worst gummed up carb I had ever seen. I thought it was picture worthy. Walter got it running after a carb rebuild... This was allegedly regular pump gas with Stabil. I'm certain it sat for longer than a few years, and certain there was no Stabil added.  Drain those float bowls, folks. :nana:


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## seery (Oct 27, 2020)

All of our gasoline equipment here on the farm uses non-ethanol only. No exceptions. 

And Seafoam is added to every ounce of gas at a rate of 2oz per gallon. No exceptions.


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## Poppy (Oct 27, 2020)

Wow!!!
That looks like rosin solder flux paste!

To get that gummy, I guess that started with a full tank of gas. Some dripped in, and evaporated, then a little more dripped in and evaporated, on and on until it was all gone.




scout24 said:


> Whatever additives you use, whatever type of fuel you use, please just make sure to run your equipment often enough and long enough each time to not have fuel sit too long in one place in the machine. Orbital- this is for you...  This machine had sat for "a few years" and the customer couldn't get it started. (snowblower) Added fuel to dry tank, checked spark, and it popped over on starting fluid. My co-worker Walter pulled the carb off and hollered "Holy Cow!" This was the worst gummed up carb I had ever seen. I thought it was picture worthy. Walter got it running after a carb rebuild... This was allegedly regular pump gas with Stabil. I'm certain it sat for longer than a few years, and certain there was no Stabil added.  Drain those float bowls, folks. :nana:


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## orbital (Oct 27, 2020)

_________________________^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
_*
Gas Station Sushi*_


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## raggie33 (Oct 27, 2020)

i trully love my cordless blower. just slip in battery walk out and blow of porch and yard its quiet so i can do it anytime.i do wish i went brushless


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## LeanBurn (Oct 27, 2020)

Most of the fueling stations have ethanol free premium. If I can't find ethanol free regular, that is what I use in my OPE.


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## Poppy (Oct 28, 2020)

What is an OPE?


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## Chauncey Gardiner (Oct 28, 2020)

Poppy said:


> What is an OPE?


 
Outdoor Power Equipment


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## Poppy (Oct 28, 2020)

Chauncey Gardiner said:


> Outdoor Power Equipment


Thanks Chance. You are one smart puppy!

Even google didn't know what OPE stands for.


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## knucklegary (Oct 28, 2020)

All OPE such as chain saws, blowers, etc.. It is recommended to drain the tank and then run out the carb dry before tucking tools away during winter


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## Burgess (Oct 28, 2020)

My 2018 Ford Escape 2.0L eco-boost
has been using strictly Ethanol-Free 90+ octane
"top-tier" gasoline for the past 2 years now.

* LOVE * it ! ! !


This website may be handy for y'all --


*https://www.pure-gas.org


*


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## Burgess (Oct 28, 2020)

BTW --

Here in the U.S.
there's been talk of increasing the 
Ethanol amount from the present 10% to 15% 

:sick2:
_


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## Lynx_Arc (Oct 28, 2020)

Burgess said:


> BTW --
> 
> Here in the U.S.
> there's been talk of increasing the
> ...



As cheap and plentiful as gas is now we should consider stopping subsidizing ethanol in gas but then that means states that make it would no longer have all that money to prop up their economies.


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## Chauncey Gardiner (Oct 28, 2020)

Poppy said:


> Thanks Chance. You are one smart puppy!
> 
> Even google didn't know what OPE stands for.



Even a stopped clock, buddy. Even a stopped clock. :laughing:


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## Poppy (Oct 28, 2020)

Chauncey Gardiner said:


> Even a stopped clock, buddy. Even a stopped clock. :laughing:



LOL... google DID know that reference.


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## markr6 (Oct 29, 2020)

knucklegary said:


> All OPE such as chain saws, blowers, etc.. It is recommended to drain the tank and then run out the carb dry before tucking tools away during winter




I always do this. But the gas that you do run dry, should it have stabilizer in it? I learned that somewhere but seems pointless.


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## Chauncey Gardiner (Oct 29, 2020)

markr6 said:


> I always do this. But the gas that you do run dry, should it have stabilizer in it? I learned that somewhere but seems pointless.



I've never heard or read such advice, and yes, it does seem pointless.


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## turbodog (Oct 29, 2020)

Since a small amount of fuel remains in bottom of carb... not pointless. Also, some fuel w/ be left in tank also. Given the volume of fuel to free air... you can bet this fuel will evaporate and leave thick residue behind. If you leave tank full w/ very little air space the reverse will happen. Just drain the carb...


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## Chauncey Gardiner (Oct 29, 2020)

turbodog said:


> Since a small amount of fuel remains in bottom of carb... not pointless. Also, some fuel w/ be left in tank also. Given the volume of fuel to free air... you can bet this fuel will evaporate and leave thick residue behind. If you leave tank full w/ very little air space the reverse will happen. Just drain the carb...



turbodog, That's a good procedure for 4-stroke equipment. Do you recommend the same for 2-stroke tools?


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## orbital (Oct 29, 2020)

+

_edit: for run dry & carb ect.._


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## turbodog (Oct 29, 2020)

Honestly, for 2 stoke I leave full of fuel and don't worry about it. Most 2 stroke oil contains fuel stabilizer now. I have done this for decades and have no problem with 2 stroke engines starting after sitting for months or years. 

I usually have to service carbs at 8-12 year mark... usually the 'fuel pump' part stiffens up and makes them hard to crank, or a primer bulb cracks.

My good results, over this long of time, with this much equipment, can't be just luck...


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## Chauncey Gardiner (Oct 29, 2020)

turbodog said:


> Honestly, for 2 stoke I leave full of fuel and don't worry about it. Most 2 stroke oil contains fuel stabilizer now. I have done this for decades and have no problem with 2 stroke engines starting after sitting for months or years.
> 
> I usually have to service carbs at 8-12 year mark... usually the 'fuel pump' part stiffens up and makes them hard to crank, or a primer bulb cracks.
> 
> My good results, over this long of time, with this much equipment, can't be just luck...



Thanks for the real world advice. I agree, it's not luck.


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## Poppy (Oct 29, 2020)

That fuel pump bulb is important with 2 stroke engines?

I'm ready to throw my 2 stroke blower out. If I just need a bulb, I'll let it live a little longer.
It takes too many pulls to get it started.


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## turbodog (Oct 29, 2020)

Poppy said:


> That fuel pump bulb is important with 2 stroke engines?
> 
> I'm ready to throw my 2 stroke blower out. If I just need a bulb, I'll let it live a little longer.
> It takes too many pulls to get it started.



It primes the carburetor to a degree. But there's a very basic fuel pump built into the carburetor also. It tends to stiffen with age... makes it hard to crank. However, once cranked, the RPMs are high enough to overcome the degradation and engines will run just fine. Cranking is the bear...

You can buy a rebuild kit, or just grab a new carb.


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## Chauncey Gardiner (Oct 29, 2020)

Poppy said:


> That fuel pump bulb is important with 2 stroke engines?
> 
> I'm ready to throw my 2 stroke blower out. If I just need a bulb, I'll let it live a little longer.
> It takes too many pulls to get it started.


 

$15.88 on the big A. 







Yes, everything pictured above. $15.88. Crazy, I know.


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## Poppy (Oct 29, 2020)

Thanks turbodog,
Here is an image of mine.
I couldn't find an image until I qualified the search with "Vintage"






It ran three years ago.
We had a lawn guy, and two years ago, I started it and it would run when horizontal for an hour, but when I dipped the nose towards the ground... you know, where the leaves live, it would bog out and die.

Last week it wouldn't start. I couldn't tell, but I am not sure if I have spark.
I'm not sure if it is worth saving.
Even when running it is load.
I have an electric blower, and a 18V Ryobi (a bit under powered driver way sweeper) and a rake. I rarely git someone to work with me, so two blowers won't matter.

I hate to throw any tool out, so I might fix it and give it to my son.
If I had a heated garage like I used to...
Now the weather is changing.


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## turbodog (Oct 29, 2020)

In the picture, the fuel pump is contained in the 'trapdoor' on the BOTTOM of the carb, opposite the primer bulb, held in place with a single screw.

You can see the gasket in the photo. It's typically reusable. Pump is a thin layer of plastic with a couple of semicircle areas on it. They act as simple one way valves.


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## turbodog (Oct 29, 2020)

Poppy said:


> Thanks turbodog,
> Here is an image of mine.
> I couldn't find an image until I qualified the search with "Vintage"
> 
> ...



Sounds like it might be the fuel pickup in the tank... sometimes they break off or get cracks in the line. It's the green item on the right side in the picture above.


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## Poppy (Oct 29, 2020)

OK Chance, you twisted my arm 

I started my reply to turbodog a couple of hours ago, had dinner, and played cards and sudoko with my Dad before finishing my post and then seeing yours!

I guess a new carb in in the cards for my almost antique leaf blower.

LOL... probably next year.


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## Poppy (Oct 29, 2020)

turbodog said:


> Sounds like it might be the fuel pickup in the tank... sometimes they break off or get cracks in the line. It's the green item on the right side in the picture above.


Maybe... my neighbor gave it to me. I had to replace the fuel line.
It's not as flexible as it once was.
Maybe that is the problem again.

Maybe there is a crack I didn't see. That certainly makes sense.

In the mean time I am burning oiled gas in my 4 cycle lawnmower. I'm almost done with it. I Didn't want to store it considering that I might toss the leaf blower.
Man, that unit is 40 years old and smokes a little until it heats up... you should see that baby now!


No mosquitos want to live in my back-yard!


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## Poppy (Oct 29, 2020)

By the way... I think you guys are great!!!


Thanks for being the people that you are!
Poppy


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## raggie33 (Oct 29, 2020)

back when i was 10 or so id find and fix stuff for fun and to learn how. but i think we had regular gas back then. is it better then ethenal .? ps first thing i learned was dont put gas in a styrofoam cup lol.


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## turbodog (Oct 30, 2020)

raggie33 said:


> back when i was 10 or so id find and fix stuff for fun and to learn how. but i think we had regular gas back then. is it better then ethenal .? ps first thing i learned was dont put gas in a styrofoam cup lol.



For the most part, no. And yes, gasoline will eat through that pretty fast.


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## Lynx_Arc (Oct 30, 2020)

raggie33 said:


> back when i was 10 or so id find and fix stuff for fun and to learn how. but i think we had regular gas back then. is it better then ethenal .? ps first thing i learned was dont put gas in a styrofoam cup lol.


I remember leaded gas, you had to clean spark plugs because they would get dirty but unleaded gas the plugs would be clean compared to leaded gas. Back then there was "regular" and unleaded gas. Now there is "regular" and ethanol free or no ethanol gas. Times have changed.


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## idleprocess (Oct 30, 2020)

Lynx_Arc said:


> I remember leaded gas, you had to clean spark plugs because they would get dirty but unleaded gas the plugs would be clean compared to leaded gas. Back then there was "regular" and unleaded gas. Now there is "regular" and ethanol free or no ethanol gas. Times have changed.



I vaguely remember leaded gas disappearing in the early to mid 1980s.

Ethanol-free gasoline on the other hand is rare in my area. Surprisingly, there's a station some ~20 miles away that sells it - might be worthwhile to buy 5-10 gallons on an annual basis for outdoor power equipment and to keep on standby for a generator if I ever procure one.


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## Chauncey Gardiner (Nov 6, 2020)




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## Poppy (Nov 7, 2020)

Thanks Chance,
that was certainly an informative video, and worth the watch! :thumbsup:


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## turbodog (Nov 7, 2020)

I was with him until he said 'we all know'. Sorry, that's making an assumption, a bridge too far.

Think I said this already, but I'll come back here and say it again. Yes, ethanol will attract water from the air (hence my reminder to use tightly sealed jugs and keep tanks full). But it also will take water in your tank, mix with it, and carry it through the engine, removing it from the fuel system.

https://cropwatch.unl.edu/ethanol-and-water-contamination-%E2%80%94-comparing-water-removal-additives

In the 'conclusion' section:

Unlike pure gasoline, ethanol blends can hold small amounts of water in solution which is then run through the engine harmlessly. In pure gasoline small amounts of water can build up in the tank.


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## Chauncey Gardiner (Nov 7, 2020)

Poppy said:


> Thanks Chance,
> that was certainly an informative video, and worth the watch! :thumbsup:



You're welcome, Poppa J. It confirmed what turbodog suggested.


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## Lynx_Arc (Nov 7, 2020)

Here is an interesting article about ethanol
https://e360.yale.edu/features/the_case_against_ethanol_bad_for_environment
and another one
https://www.consumerreports.org/cro...ethanol-can-make-small-engines-fail/index.htm


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## markr6 (Nov 9, 2020)

I just emptied my trimmer and ran it dry best I could. Then I ran a tiny amount of Tru-Fuel through before storage. Hopefully that makes sense and starts easy next year.


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## Chauncey Gardiner (Nov 9, 2020)




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## Lynx_Arc (Nov 9, 2020)

markr6 said:


> I just emptied my trimmer and ran it dry best I could. Then I ran a tiny amount of Tru-Fuel through before storage. Hopefully that makes sense and starts easy next year.


I've never emptied fuel out of my blower and with the exception of a few years I had some issues the last few years I only use it in fall to blow leaves and it has started easily.


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## BrightestBulb (Nov 9, 2020)

Ever since I started using ethanol-free gas and Seafoam my generator starts first pull no matter how many months of sitting. Before that all my stuff was always getting carbs cleaned or rebuilt and never fired when I needed them the most. As a previous poster mentioned I found the website https://www.pure-gas.org way back and found it a godsend to find the stuff no matter where.


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## turbodog (Nov 9, 2020)

BrightestBulb said:


> Ever since I started using ethanol-free gas and Seafoam my generator starts first pull no matter how many months of sitting. Before that all my stuff was always getting carbs cleaned or rebuilt and never fired when I needed them the most. As a previous poster mentioned I found the website https://www.pure-gas.org way back and found it a godsend to find the stuff no matter where.



After owning about 11 generators, and 6 currently, I can say that's 99% due to seafoam and 1% luck.


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## markr6 (Nov 10, 2020)

So quick summary as I get ready to use my mower one last time (mostly just to vac up leaves):

1. Change dirty oil now or in April? (4-stroke)
2. Run dry or fill tank with gas/stabil?


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## KITROBASKIN (Nov 10, 2020)

turbodog, can you give us a brief rundown in terms of what percentage (or per gallon) of seafoam would you use for a motor that is probably gummed up, and what % and frequency used as a maintenance dose of Seafoam?


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## turbodog (Nov 10, 2020)

markr6 said:


> So quick summary as I get ready to use my mower one last time (mostly just to vac up leaves):
> 
> 1. Change dirty oil now or in April? (4-stroke)
> 2. Run dry or fill tank with gas/stabil?



In theory, you change it at both times. If you change it just once, then opt for springtime.

The idea is that daytime/nighttime temp swings causes the air inside the engine to expand/contract each day. The 'new' air each day contains water vapor which condenses as the temp drops at night. So... you supposedly have some amount of water mixed with your oil come springtime.

This is the same theory why you leave gas cans tightly capped (and to prevent evaporation).


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## turbodog (Nov 10, 2020)

KITROBASKIN said:


> turbodog, can you give us a brief rundown in terms of what percentage (or per gallon) of seafoam would you use for a motor that is probably gummed up, and what % and frequency used as a maintenance dose of Seafoam?



Man I don't know. I read the label and sort of eyeball it a bit. I don't use for maintenance... only when there are problems, which 90% of the time is on the finicky carburetor on the eu2000 generator. My larger gensets don't have a problem so it must be something in the design of that particular unit.


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## Poppy (Nov 10, 2020)

turbodog said:


> In theory, you change it at both times. If you change it just once, then opt for springtime.
> 
> The idea is that daytime/nighttime temp swings causes the air inside the engine to expand/contract each day. The 'new' air each day contains water vapor which condenses as the temp drops at night. So... you supposedly have some amount of water mixed with your oil come springtime.
> 
> This is the same theory why you leave gas cans tightly capped (and to prevent evaporation).


LOL... this is funny.

I had an instructor who used to say... "In my mind's eye, I am a vegetarian! On the other hand, I just had a steak that was wonderful." " Eventually I'll be a vegetarian."

So in my mind's eye, I change the oil every year, but I think every 100 hours is good enough, and with the frequency that I run my mower, that's about once every three years!
Regarding any build up of moisture, I just assume that the water will boil out of the oil, and for the most part the gas too.

There are some who will spray/fog the cylinders with oil prior to storage. I tried that once, and foolishly left the spark plug out. Ever since then my 7 hp snow blower smoked on initial start up, and behaved more like a 5-6 hp blower. At that point in time it was a 35 year old machine. My bad. Fogging makes some sense to me, and I would do it if I was meticulous.

But I think that you might have to change your spark plug too. Ah... too much work for me


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## markr6 (Nov 12, 2020)

Is stabilizer just for gas with some ethanol content? If I'm using 90 octane alcohol-free gas does it not apply?


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## Lynx_Arc (Nov 12, 2020)

markr6 said:


> Is stabilizer just for gas with some ethanol content? If I'm using 90 octane alcohol-free gas does it not apply?


There are stabilizers for all sorts of fuels out there not just gasoline.


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## turbodog (Nov 12, 2020)

Stabilizer helps all gas, regular/premium, straight/ethanol blend.


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## idleprocess (Nov 12, 2020)

turbodog said:


> Stabilizer helps all gas, regular/premium, straight/ethanol blend.



As I understand it, gasoline is inherently unstable. I know this from experience, having allowed a vehicle to sit for approximately a year without cycling the gas tank and barely gotten it started to the point that I was able to add some gas and techron into its tank so that it stood a chance of running properly. What I pumped out of the tank had unnervingly _varnish-like_ properties.


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## Chauncey Gardiner (Nov 12, 2020)

This is what I'm-a gunna do -


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## joshk (Nov 12, 2020)

I worked as a mechanic for years back in high school. We had customers that would never buy a drop of gas with ethanol, and others that ran it all the time. There was only one difference I noticed... The people that never bought ethanol constantly ranted about how their issues were just normal maintenance, and everyone else's issues were because of ethanol. lol.


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## idleprocess (Nov 12, 2020)

joshk said:


> I worked as a mechanic for years back in high school. We had customers that would never buy a drop of gas with ethanol, and others that ran it all the time. There was only one difference I noticed... The people that never bought ethanol constantly ranted about how their issues were just normal maintenance, and everyone else's issues were because of ethanol. lol.



In _automobiles_, I gather that ethanol causes a narrow handful of specific problems in older cars. i.e. I've heard that the circa 1990 300ZX twin turbo experiences greatly accelerated _(haw!)_ injector wear when one switches to ethanol gas ... _but_ at the point this was reported those cars were already >15 years old, factory turbo systems were nowhere near as mature as they are now, and their drivers tend to drive them _*assertively*_.

Otherwise, as has been oft stated in this thread, _atrophy_ is an issue with engines that aren't used with the regularity of most cars.


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## Poppy (Nov 27, 2020)

I finally got to working on my blower today.







Actually some time last week I pulled the magneto and brought it to a shop hoping for a replacement. I was unable to find one online. They didn't have one, and wished me luck.

Since it was so rusted, I decided to clean it up a bit so that it would make a definite ground connection. I now had spark.

It would put put on gumout or starting fluid, so today I pulled the carb, and checked the diaphragm fuel pump as turbodog suggested. I pulled and cleaned the float valve, and the needle valve. If that didn't work I'd get a carb rebuild kit, or a whole new carb, like chance suggested.

Now it starts and runs.

It is so loud that I won't run it without hearing protection.

Thanks for the help guys!


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## greatscoot (Nov 27, 2020)

I used to get ethanol free gas at a station in Michigan, my mileage was easily 15-20% better.


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## orbital (Nov 28, 2020)

+

Poppy, you make me want to go out and fix something

*
motivate by example!*


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## Poppy (Nov 28, 2020)

LOL orbital,
Come on over! A couple of days ago my next door neighbor asked if I knew anyone who could work on a snow blower? 

I'll put in a good word for you :devil:


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## Chauncey Gardiner (Nov 28, 2020)

A snow blower. That's one tool I'm thankful I don't need.  .........


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## Poppy (Feb 3, 2021)

Yesterday we got nearly 2 feet of snow.
I did a lot of snow blowing. My house was the easiest. I have a shorter driveway, and no sidewalk on my side of the street.
My next door neighbors were in Florida for the week, visiting an elderly parent. They left behind an adult daughter, her grandmother, and a dog. She got instructions from her dad on how to start their snow-blower, but couldn't figure out how to get the gas out of the gas can, with one of those new fangled safety nozzles. So she was shoveling.

I showed her how to do it and helped her get the blower running, and in the mean time used my blower too.
I ran my tank dry. 

She had gas, but I didn't know if it had stabilizer in it, so instead, I walked home and brought back a 2 1/2 gallon container with stabil in it. OMG... until we started discussing it in this thread, I would not have given it a second thought to just use her gas!

I think I am ruined.


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## turbodog (Feb 3, 2021)

Take that free gas! Just don't use the final cup or so... that's where all the water settles at. That's _IF_ it has a lid, if not, run far away.


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## Poppy (Feb 3, 2021)

turbodog said:


> Take that free gas! Just don't use the final cup or so... that's where all the water settles at. That's _IF_ it has a lid, if not, run far away.


Man I love the people at this site... always looking out for me! 

I'm new to this house and still making friends.

I recently got a PBA card (get out of traffic ticket free) for my daughter, and invitations to beer and wine, with music around a fire pit, gatherings when the weather breaks. I'm all in!

I found it interesting that in of the four neighbors that I have only gotten to know, on the surface, each of them has a snow-blower. Only one has one that runs! Well another has one that runs but runs so poorly that it is easier to shovel.

Who wants to bet that their problem is a gummed up carburetor?


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## Chauncey Gardiner (Feb 3, 2021)




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## orbital (Feb 3, 2021)

+

I have a Deluxe 28, not the EFI, but I do have an *SHO* :devil:
yes, it's electric start.

Always get an electric start if possible.


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## Poppy (Feb 3, 2021)

orbital said:


> +
> 
> I have a Deluxe 28, not the EFI, but I do have an *SHO* :devil:
> yes, it's electric start.
> ...


I have a 20 year old 28" YardMan 10 HP Techumseh "Snow King" engine.

I have to agree about getting electric start!
I don't know if mine is getting harder to pull start because the engine and stuff is getting tighter, or I am getting older. I worked on mine this fall, and it started after two or three pulls. If it needed more than that I would have gone for an extension cord.

Last year if not for the electric crank, it wouldn't have gotten used when the temps dropped below ten.


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## orbital (Feb 4, 2021)

+

You always have good posts Poppy..

with electric start, you have a back-up plan if your pull cord breaks in a snow emergency situation. 
Very few things in life are as helpful (and it's not that much more cash)


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## Tasky (Feb 4, 2021)

idleprocess said:


> In _automobiles_, I gather that ethanol causes a narrow handful of specific problems in older cars.


I don't know about snowblowers and how small their engines are, but a lot of motorcycles run with carbs and ethanol fuel is despised. 
Basically it degrades all the rubber bits, like carb diaphragms. You can patch-repair ones that split through general wear relatively easily, but replacements (necessary for chemically disruptive ones) are getting difficult/expensive to find and custom fabricated ones are even worse.


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## Poppy (Feb 15, 2021)

About 8 years ago I gave my 7 HP B&S Simplicity snowblower to a life long friend.

When I bought it, it was 17 years old, and I ran it every year from 1986 to 2014? 
He never used it, because he had a little 4HP single stage unit, and even more often he used a shovel.
This year he decided to get them both running.

He pulled the carb on the 7 HP unit, this is what he found.







LOL... I think this competes with scout24's worst carburetor. I've never seen one this bad.


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## turbodog (Feb 15, 2021)

WTH is that? Galvanic corrosion?


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## Poppy (Feb 15, 2021)

my guess would be aluminum oxide.
IIRC this unit had a vertical tube leading to the carb throat. 
Rain, and evaporation, followed by rain and evaporation for 8 years may be the catalyst.

Maybe.


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## turbodog (Feb 16, 2021)

Poppy said:


> my guess would be aluminum oxide.
> IIRC this unit had a vertical tube leading to the carb throat.
> Rain, and evaporation, followed by rain and evaporation for 8 years may be the catalyst.
> 
> Maybe.



Aluminum oxides almost immediately and then more or less stops. If something disturbs the oxide layer a new one will form. This really looks like something else was at play. I've seen aluminum exposed to the direct rain for years that didn't look this bad.

So this is a ~1970 model engine? Surprised it still runs at all.


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## Poppy (Feb 16, 2021)

Yes, 1970 engine. I was told that it was garage kept, and serviced every year until I bought it. Then it was left outdoors, near the back door steps. Every once in a while, as I walked by, I'd give the pull start, a pull, just to keep the engine free. Every two or three years, I'd spray the carb up with gumout to get it running. Most years, I'd hit it with a shot of starter fluid, and it would start right up. It didn't have a primer bulb.

I'd wager that the engine has cast iron sleeves. Considering that it hasn't been touched for the past 8 years, once he gets it running, who knows how well it will run. I suppose the sleeves may be all pitted. He is waiting for a new carb to come in.

Here is a video of the model with most of the covers removed so the chain drives may be oiled.



[FONT=Roboto, Arial, sans-serif]Briggs and Stratton 7HP model 170402[/FONT]

[FONT=Roboto, Arial, sans-serif]Replacement carburetor $18.99 next day delivery... unbelievable.[/FONT]


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## turbodog (Feb 16, 2021)

It says 'simplicity', but that snake's nest of belts/chains is anything but.


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## Poppy (Jul 4, 2021)

I have some stored fuel and think it is time to use it up and replace it with fresh, stabilized fuel.

How often do you replace your's.


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## turbodog (Jul 5, 2021)

Just whenever I happen to use it up. Sometimes that's a month, sometimes over a year. Don't use as much these days so it's typically 9-12 months.


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## Poppy (Jul 6, 2021)

Although I am using more than I used to, I am storing more than I use in a year, so that I have some on hand in case of a emergency. I didn't really do that before. Yeah, I'd stock up if there was an impending storm, but then use it up and not replace it until there was another. So fuel on hand was typically less than a year old.

I pretty much emptied the gas tank in my car today, five hours of driving, will do that. I think I'll put fresh gas in my storage containers, and stabilize the gas in them.


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## turbodog (Jul 7, 2021)

Poppy said:


> ...
> I pretty much emptied the gas tank in my car today, five hours of driving, will do that. I think I'll put fresh gas in my storage containers, and stabilize the gas in them.



I used to use sta-bil in my cans, but quit that over 10 years ago. Only use it in engines over the winter as the gas caps are not airtight. I will mention again my cans are in excellent shape... so if yours are not then expect bad things I guess.


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