# Most powerful commercially available portable HID spotlight?



## Smood (Jun 26, 2020)

What is the most powerful commercially available portable HID spotlight?


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## DayofReckoning (Jun 26, 2020)

I don't have any idea, but the Lemax LX70 Superpower surely has to be near the top.


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## XeRay (Jun 26, 2020)

[url]www.Xevision.com

[/URL]https://www.candlepowerforums.com/v...ision-ULTRA-80-85W-Super-head-mod-SIGN-UP-NOW


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## Smood (Jun 28, 2020)

Why is xeray is expensive?


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## Polarion-Sparetech2 (Jun 29, 2020)

You may want to consider Polarion PH50D. It does not go to 70W but it is half the weight and more ergonomic. Few companies make hand-held HID searchlights. Market has gone LED. That said, HID is far superior for long range illumination.


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## XeRay (Jun 29, 2020)

Smood said:


> Why is xeray is expensive?


Because it is superior, with a military grade ballast that meets higher thermal management and EMI and RFI standards. (it doesn't get hot)
We also offer high wattage rated bulbs and warranty / service (repairs) are handled in the USA (cheap shipping within USA)
We also made the ULTRA limited edition 40/85 dual wattage version. An upgraded LX70 or Superpower.
https://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb...od-SIGN-UP-NOW

Weight of XV-LX70 is 4.85 lbs (2200 grams) only including the handle. Not remotely close to "heavy" compared to others, check the numbers.
Well balanced in the hand and very ergonomic, with 20 watts more output. The Polarion PH50D weight is about 4 lbs. (1810 grams), hardly 1/2 the weight.


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## Smood (Jun 29, 2020)

XeRay said:


> Because it is superior, with a military grade ballast that meets higher EMI and RFI standards.
> We also offer wattage rated bulbs and warranty / service (repairs) are handled in the USA (cheap shipping within USA)
> We also made the ULTRA limited edition 40/85 dual wattage version. An upgraded LX70 or Superpower.
> https://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb...od-SIGN-UP-NOW
> ...



Any thoughts on making a larger (like thor cyclops size) and even more powerful hid light? Do you do custom builds?


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## BVH (Jun 29, 2020)

Yeah......Where's that 250 Watt mentioned a number of years back???


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## XeRay (Jun 29, 2020)

Smood said:


> Any thoughts on making a larger (like thor cyclops size) and even more powerful hid light? Do you do custom builds?




We build custom ballasts of different outputs, input voltages, sizes and shapes for our OEM customers. 
We must look at market size and demand to be sure we make a product that will pay for its development costs.


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## XeRay (Jun 29, 2020)

BVH said:


> Yeah......Where's that 250 Watt mentioned a number of years back???




As you know we made a 1 off ballast and sourced a bulb. The warm up of the VERY HIGH output bulb took too long to warm up to its high output for any practical applications for any of our target markets.
The alternative bulbs didn't have the output we were looking for of about 25,000 to 30,000 lumens.


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## BVH (Jun 29, 2020)

Probably a Mercury Xenon lamp? They are very bright for the power level vs Xenon. Xenon in the 35-40 Lumens per watt and I think 110 to 115 Lumens per watt for MX. Downside is the warmup time as you say. My 300 Watt Locator Short Arc lights off in a beautiful Violet hue then takes a good 30 seconds to be bright and another 15 to reach max. Do you have that prototype ballast and bulb? I'd buy it off you if you'd part with it.


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## XeRay (Jun 30, 2020)

BVH said:


> Probably a Mercury Xenon lamp? They are very bright for the power level vs Xenon. Xenon in the 35-40 Lumens per watt and I think 110 to 115 Lumens per watt for MX. Downside is the warmup time as you say. My 300 Watt Locator Short Arc lights off in a beautiful Violet hue then takes a good 30 seconds to be bright and another 15 to reach max. Do you have that prototype ballast and bulb? I'd buy it off you if you'd part with it.



I'd have to discuss with my engineer.
It took at least 45 seconds if not even 1 minute to reach full brightness.


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## BVH (Jun 30, 2020)

XeRay said:


> I'd have to discuss with my engineer.
> It took at least 45 seconds if not even 1 minute to reach full brightness.



Wouldn't matter to me. In line with the Locator warm up time.


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## Polarion-Sparetech2 (Jul 1, 2020)

Strictly for completeness - all Polarion lights ship from the USA and are serviced in Connecticut. In terms of weight, we do stand corrected. The PH50D is marginally lighter at 1.8 kg.


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## Smood (Jul 1, 2020)

What are the typical ranges for the LV70 and PH50D lights ?

EDIT: So ph50D is 1.5 km according to the website. What about the LV70?


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## Polarion-Sparetech2 (Jul 2, 2020)

As you noted, the Polarion PH50D range is basically 1 mile. That said, actual results will depend on atmospheric conditions (particles in air, rain, dust, etc). I always remind people that 1 mile is a long way away. Any light effectiveness at that kind of distance will depend on the size of the object being lit. To give a simple example: on the water, I can illuminate a ship a mile away. The object will be easily resolved by my eyes, without magnification. If I illuminate a phone case at the same distance, my eyes will not be able to resolve without using binoculars.


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## XeRay (Jul 2, 2020)

Smood said:


> What are the typical ranges for the XV-LX70 and PH50D lights ?
> EDIT: So ph50D is 1.5 km according to the website. What about the XV-LX70?



At 70W should run about 1.4 Miles (well over 2 km ), at 50W about 1.1-1.2 Miles (about 1.8 km) Our Electro-formed reflector is larger and well optimized.


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## Bush Rat (Jul 15, 2020)

So what is the most powerful HID you can buy? In english please

Is it the Lemax SP 70? The lemax looks like a laser, not much use. What is this superhead mod? the thread has no replies for a while.

Been looking for something with high output (10,000lumens+) & high throw (4km). Looks like nothing going. LED is catching up & getting decent runtimes...few more years & LED might be the go i rekon.


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## Polarion-Sparetech2 (Jul 17, 2020)

For Polarion's commercial lights: 50 W, 4500 lumens, = about 1.5 km. 

I will let XeRay elaborate on the Lemax line but a simple search leads to: LX50, LX70 and LX70 Superpower. I think that the LX70 Superpower comes close to your specification throw if not flux.

LED lights are improving but they will never "match" HID lights. Different product, different application. LED are mono-chromatic side emitters. HID are wide-band point sources. 

In plain English: LED lights top out in the 500-meter range, with lots of side losses. HID lights easily top 1000 meters and the same light can be filtered to work in IR, red, amber, green and UV.


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## DayofReckoning (Jul 17, 2020)

Polarion-Sparetech2 said:


> For Polarion's commercial lights: 50 W, 4500 lumens, = about 1.5 km.
> 
> I will let XeRay elaborate on the Lemax line but a simple search leads to: LX50, LX70 and LX70 Superpower. I think that the LX70 Superpower comes close to your specification throw if not flux.
> 
> ...



Sounds to me like you haven't spent any time looking at recent LED advances, or your just being disingenuous and trying hard to sell Polarion, as what you claim is categorically and demonstrably false. The claim that "LED's will never match HID" is stunningly bold and erroneous.

Purely on throw and illuminating a target at range, the ACEBEAM K75, with it's tested and validated 1.5mil legitimate candela rating (2500meters), will stomp all over anything in the Polarion lineup. I have no dog in the fight, but I do own a LEMAX LX50 (which throws just as far and outputs just as much light as anything in Polarion's lineup), and the Acebeam K75 as well. When it comes to purely throw distance and intensity of the beam, there is just no comparison at all. 

Furthermore, lights like the Astrolux MF05 should have HID manufacturers sweating. And we haven't even gotten into the 2mil plus candela pocket LEP's yet.

HID has it's place, and there are applications where it is still relevant. But when it comes to pure throw, the LUMINUS SBT-90 has really been a game changer. Just think where the next emitter will take us. I am new to HID, and love them, but their days are numbered.


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## XeRay (Jul 20, 2020)

https://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?468657-Can-LED-lights-now-throw-at-the-same-level-as-HID

This thread discusses the performance comparables between high powered LED and HID searchlights.


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## DayofReckoning (Jul 20, 2020)

Vinh from SkyLumen will soon have his hands on the Astrolux MF05 and, as with every other LED light, will be pushing even further than it's stock spec of 7500 lumens and 2.5 mil candela. With active cooling, it will be interesting to see how much of that 7500 lumens it can maintain. 

FWIW, I no doubt anticipate something extremely impressive coming from XeRay, their products and performance exceeds the best Polarion has to offer.


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## XeRay (Jul 20, 2020)

Bush Rat said:


> So what is the most powerful HID you can buy? In english please. Is it the Lemax SP 70? The lemax looks like a laser, not much use. What is this superhead mod? the thread has no replies for a while. Been looking for something with high output (10,000lumens+) & high throw (4km). Looks like nothing going. LED is catching up & getting decent runtimes...few more years & LED might be the go i rekon.





DayofReckoning said:


> FWIW, I no doubt anticipate something extremely impressive coming from XeRay, their products and performance exceeds the best Polarion has to offer.



Well you must be confusing the Lemax (XeVision) units with the Maxabeam, it has a "laser-like" beam of little practical use except for snipers and fun (wow) factor.
The XeVision XeRay (Lemax) units are a VERY "different animal" than "laser-like" as you describe. Very use-able for search and rescue etc.
Everyone here that's familiar with these units, will attest to these last 2 sentences and claims. 

We recently made a numbered limited edition (Late 2019) run of XeVision XeRay Ultra 85's dual wattage 40/85 output watts, at approximately 10,000 output lumens at the high 85 watt setting.
There is one unit remaining available 5/10 (unit 5 out of 10 units), It has the standard 70 head with an option to buy the SuperPower head. 
The range with the standard 70 head (11.7 cm 4.5 inch diameter) is about 3+Km and about 4.5+Km with the SuperPower optional head (22 cm 8.5 inch diameter).
These units can be run continuously at high output without dimming or overheating. 
They don't dim like LED does without having some very effective active cooling. 

Ultra 85 Thread and beam-shots threads below.

https://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?453551-XeVision-ULTRA-85-Beamshots

https://www.candlepowerforums.com/v...ision-ULTRA-80-85W-Super-head-mod-SIGN-UP-NOW


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## DayofReckoning (Jul 20, 2020)

XeRay said:


> Well you must be confusing the Lemax (XeVision) units with the Maxabeam, it has a "laser-like" beam of little practical use except for snipers and fun (wow) factor.
> The XeVision XeRay (Lemax) units are a VERY "different animal" than "laser-like" as you describe. Very use-able for search and rescue etc.
> Everyone here that's familiar with these units, will attest to these last 2 sentences and claims.
> 
> ...



That is certainly impressive. It's also impressive a sub $600 Chinese LED is starting to close in on the heels of that. Will be interesting to see how close it may come when pushed by SkyLumen.


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## Alex1234 (Jul 21, 2020)

I'm going to guess the mf05vn with the delens sbt90 will push 2.7 million cd slightly more then the stock of 2.5 million cd. I think it will compete nicely with the standard head version. Won't beat the superpower head but it should be able to keep up somewhat. And with how massive the mf05 host is heat will be a none issue. Vinh already stated his driver will be able to maintain turbo indefinitely. With in the next 10 years I think we see an led flashlight hit 4-5 miles of throw disregarding lep.


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## XeRay (Jul 21, 2020)

Alex1234 said:


> I'm going to guess the mf05vn with the delens sbt90 will push 2.7 million cd slightly more then the stock of 2.5 million cd. I think it will compete nicely with the standard head version. Won't beat the superpower head but it should be able to keep up somewhat. And with how massive the mf05 host is heat will be a none issue. Vinh already stated his driver will be able to maintain turbo indefinitely. With in the next 10 years I think we see an led flashlight hit 4-5 miles of throw disregarding lep.


How are the LED's being kept cool enough, so that they can maintain full output for hours at a time ??


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## DayofReckoning (Jul 21, 2020)

Alex1234 said:


> I'm going to guess the mf05vn with the delens sbt90 will push 2.7 million cd slightly more then the stock of 2.5 million cd. I think it will compete nicely with the standard head version. Won't beat the superpower head but it should be able to keep up somewhat. And with how massive the mf05 host is heat will be a none issue. Vinh already stated his driver will be able to maintain turbo indefinitely. With in the next 10 years I think we see an led flashlight hit 4-5 miles of throw disregarding lep.



Objectively, Acebeam and their engineers are a notch above Astrolux (Astrolux is still good), and all others for that matter at this time, when it comes to pushing the boundaries, and their products have been the benchmark for pushing the cutting edge in lights for several years now. Imalent wins on paper, but the build quality, reliability, and QC are inferior. I'm 100% certain Acebeam has a light on the drawing boards that's going to outperform the MF05.



XeRay said:


> How are the LED's being kept cool enough, so that they can maintain full output for hours at a time ??



By a combination of sheer mass and active cooling. Imalent also has lights with internal PC style cooling fans, that, done properly, will provide even greater cooling ability than the setup Astrolux is using here. 

Photo courtesy of 1Lumen 






Also note this light uses a battery configuration of 8X18650 cells, which is vastly superior to ANY HID on the market.


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## XeRay (Jul 21, 2020)

Unless they have a very efficient way to directly pull the heat away from the base of the LED's themselves, just massive heatsink fins and fans won't do it. 
The LED(s) will still get WAY TOO HOT. 
Its all about the "Delta T" between the base of the LED(s) and its thermal connection to heatsink medium. The "Delta T" had better be very large for this to work reliably.
Its not like those fins are directly connected to the back of the LED's.
Moving the heat from the LED's to the heatsink very effectively is not easily accomplished.
lots of mass only helps in the short term.

Shipping of a battery package that large, in total capacity can be a big (legal and safety) issue from overseas. Unless of course they lie in the shipping documents, or only sell it not including any batteries.


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## BVH (Jul 21, 2020)

DayofReckoning said:


> Objectively, Acebeam and their engineers are a notch above Astrolux (Astrolux is still good), and all others for that matter at this time, when it comes to pushing the boundaries, and their products have been the benchmark for pushing the cutting edge in lights for several years now. Imalent wins on paper, but the build quality, reliability, and QC are inferior. I'm 100% certain Acebeam has a light on the drawing boards that's going to outperform the MF05.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



That cooling fan handle is a perfect example of "Mickey Mouse" engineering and implementation. I had the 60,000 Lumen from Imalent or a competitor that had that handle, can't remember who, and dumped it about 2 weeks later.


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## bulbmogul (Jul 21, 2020)

Hoping to see SUREFIRE come out with several more new high end military grade HID Lights to go with the Arc28C and the Hellfighter5....


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## DayofReckoning (Jul 21, 2020)

BVH said:


> That cooling fan handle is a perfect example of "Mickey Mouse" engineering and implementation. I had the 60,000 Lumen from Imalent or a competitor that had that handle, can't remember who, and dumped it about 2 weeks later.



That "Mickey Mouse" engineered handle just so happens to show a decrease of up to 10 degrees celsius in the Acebeam X70 in independent testing, which is nothing to scoff at. I'm certain you actually took time to look up the data before commenting though. Will be interesting to see if the one included on this light will be any worse or better.

Looks kind of gimmicky, and it kind of is, looks like a last minute idea, I agree, but a light this size needs a handle, and I see no reason to ridicule a design that is simple, cheap, and from some testing, somewhat effective.


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## DayofReckoning (Jul 21, 2020)

bulbmogul said:


> Hoping to see SUREFIRE come out with several more new high end military grade HID Lights to go with the Arc28C and the Hellfighter5....



The Surefire of today is not the Surefire that built those monster HID's you have. I wouldn't expect too much.


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## XeRay (Jul 21, 2020)

bulbmogul said:


> Hoping to see SUREFIRE come out with several more new high end military grade HID Lights to go with the Arc28C and the Hellfighter5....




Not gonna happen, Surefire is "done" with this very special and limited market. Surefire never even made it up to 50 Watt HID, let alone 70 Watt or even the 85+Watts ULTRA HID.


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## XeRay (Jul 21, 2020)

DayofReckoning said:


> That "Mickey Mouse" engineered handle... Looks kind of gimmicky, and it kind of is, looks like a last minute idea, I agree, but a light this size needs a handle, and I see no reason to ridicule a design that is simple, cheap, and from some testing, somewhat effective.



I think his (BVH's) biggest concern is its lack of robustness (the handle). You can DRIVE a car or pickup truck over a XeVision (Lemax) unit. I doubt that handle can even take a direct drop hit from 4 to 5 feet


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## DayofReckoning (Jul 21, 2020)

XeRay said:


> I think his (BVH's) biggest concern is its lack of robustness (the handle). You can drive over a XeVision (Lemax) unit. I doubt that handle can even take a direct drop fro 5 ft.



Not going to comment on the robustness, as I don't know, you may be right. I do know the Acebeam variant is very likely to be more durable than what's pictured. 

And I've seen the LEMAX vs Volvo video  I dont' doubt their robustness, Though a few night ago I did spin the magnetic ring on my LX50 possibly a bit too fast or hard, and it made a short grinding noise. Can't repeat it again and can't get it to do it again, not sure what that was about. :thinking:


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## BVH (Jul 21, 2020)

Mickey Mouse both from an aesthetics and functional standpoint. The very narrow channel flow of air over maybe 20-30% of only 180 degrees of the finned head surface creates a spot cooling scenario where you're going to have uneven cooling so uneven LED performance. The MS18, on the other hand, has no ugly glued-on afterthought looking handle. It has two fans 180 degrees opposed to each other and two exhaust outlets 90 degrees from the fan inlets. The result, 360 head cooling. In addition, it utilizes an internal mounted copper heatpipe system to further its' cooling efficiency. It conforms to industry standard norms. The stick-on handle is an inefficient embarrassment.

Having had both style lights, I can also say that while the handle fan moves air, the air coming off the fins is not that much warmer than ambient. It absorbs very little heat The air coming from the MS18 exhaust ports is quite warm, having picked up a lot of heat.


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## XeRay (Jul 21, 2020)

BVH said:


> Mickey Mouse both from an aesthetics and functional standpoint. The very narrow channel flow of air over maybe 20-30% of only 180 degrees of the finned head surface creates a spot cooling scenario where you're going to have uneven cooling so uneven LED performance. The MS18, on the other hand, has no ugly glued-on afterthought looking handle. It has two fans 180 degrees opposed to each other and two exhaust outlets 90 degrees from the fan inlets. The result, 360 head cooling. In addition, it utilizes an internal mounted copper heatpipe system to further its' cooling efficiency. It conforms to industry standard norms. The stick-on handle is an inefficient embarrassment. Having had both style lights, I can also say that while the handle fan moves air, the air coming off the fins is not that much warmer than ambient. It absorbs very little heat The air coming from the MS18 exhaust ports is quite warm, having picked up a lot of heat.



Very good points BVH

I suspect the biggest problem is they haven't done a good job in getting the heat out of the LED's and into to the metal mass or the fins, such that no fan could do much to move heat away from the heatsink fins. For any heatsink to be highly efficient (as is required in this application), there must be a large "deltaT" between the ambient air temperature (air moved by the fan) and the metal temperature of the heatsink in the area(s) of the fan air movement (flow).


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## DayofReckoning (Jul 21, 2020)

DayofReckoning said:


> Objectively, Acebeam and their engineers are a notch above Astrolux (Astrolux is still good), and all others for that matter at this time, when it comes to pushing the boundaries, and their products have been the benchmark for pushing the cutting edge in lights for several years now. Imalent wins on paper, but the build quality, reliability, and QC are inferior. I'm 100% certain Acebeam has a light on the drawing boards that's going to outperform the MF05.
> 
> 
> 
> ...





BVH said:


> Mickey Mouse both from an aesthetics and functional standpoint. The very narrow channel flow of air over maybe 20-30% of only 180 degrees of the finned head surface creates a spot cooling scenario where you're going to have uneven cooling so uneven LED performance. The MS18, on the other hand, has no ugly glued-on afterthought looking handle. It has two fans 180 degrees opposed to each other and two exhaust outlets 90 degrees from the fan inlets. The result, 360 head cooling. In addition, it utilizes an internal mounted copper heatpipe system to further its' cooling efficiency. It conforms to industry standard norms. The stick-on handle is an inefficient embarrassment.
> 
> Having had both style lights, I can also say that while the handle fan moves air, the air coming off the fins is not that much warmer than ambient. It absorbs very little heat The air coming from the MS18 exhaust ports is quite warm, having picked up a lot of heat.



I summarized this long ago in this thread. No one is arguing that the Imalent isn't a better design. You are providing conjecture on the efficiency on this handle versus the real numbers that show it does has some degree of cooling effect. Furthermore, I also acknowledged the "tackiness" of this handle just a few posts ago. So I don't know who you are arguing against, we are all in agreement here. My argument is that all large searchlights have carrying handles, and though gimmicky, I see no issue with the "last minute" implementation of this integrated fan if it does have an effect. It's better to have the fan than no fan at all. And if it does break, the light is still functional.
Astrolux having chosen to this route with the cooling, maybe it's just a cheap copy and paste of the next CCP thing, or maybe they have data showing it's worthwhile to include the cooling, I can't say. I do hope whoever does the review takes that data down.


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## DayofReckoning (Jul 21, 2020)

I like how speculation, elitist snarky comments, and and pure conjecture gets trumped by data. 6:27 in that video. It must be noted that sheer output is not the primary goal with the cooling, but also ensuring to extend the lifespan of the components, and the data shows this cooling fan to provide some benefit.


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## BVH (Jul 21, 2020)

It's hardly conjecture when I have direct experience with both systems. I think your use of the word "Objectively" in your above post is a bit misused. It really should be subjectively. Unless you're on the engineering teams of all these lights you mention, then you don't really know anything substantial about what goes into them.


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## DayofReckoning (Jul 21, 2020)

BVH said:


> It's hardly conjecture when I have direct experience with both systems. I think your use of the word "Objectively" in your above post is a bit misused. It really should be subjectively. Unless you're on the engineering teams of all these lights you mention, then you don't really know anything substantial about what goes into them.



Did you even watch the video?  Your personal anecdotal experience versus his numbers? Well, he belongs to this forum. Perhaps you should take that up with him.


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## XeRay (Jul 21, 2020)

DayofReckoning said:


> I like how speculation, elitist snarky comments, and and pure conjecture gets trumped by data. 6:27 in that video. It must be noted that sheer output is not the primary goal with the cooling, but also ensuring to extend the lifespan of the components, and the data shows this cooling fan to provide some benefit.



I have also tested this unit, the throw is not impressive at all, it is primarily a wide flood light. The center spot LED doesn't do all that much and videos (photos) are often very deceptive.


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## DayofReckoning (Jul 21, 2020)

XeRay said:


> I have also tested this unit, the throw is not impressive at all, it is primarily a wide flood light. The center spot LED doesn't do all that much and videos (photos) are often very deceptive.



I thought we were talking about the cooling performance here? Oh, I found some more data to show the cooling fans effectiveness even better. https://1lumen.com/18650-reviews/acebeam-x70/ 

I agree, with a rating of 311,000 candela, it's not a real impressive thrower. However, it's not made in that capacity, it's made to have a more useful beam for searching at reasonable distances. For example, that light, at turn on, puts out about 6 times the output as your best model, and still maintains constant over 15,000 lumens, all while having access to lower power levels for when you don't need full power and need to save battery. All while costing $500, 1/4 to 1/8th of what some are asking for their HID's.


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## Magio (Jul 21, 2020)

Yeah the X70 was never meant to be an extreme thower. It does however throw just as far as the Polarion PH40 lights while having 15x the lumens.


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## DayofReckoning (Jul 21, 2020)

Quote from that X70 Review

"_*The following runtime was done, using the fan on its highest setting. This resulted in a completely different runtime graph. Although the output drop looks the same, the average output of its battery life was about 3 times brighter. The output is still about 20,000 lumens for 30 minutes. There are a few ups-and-down in the graph. This is probably the thermal heat configuration of the driver. The fan does a good job keeping the head cool! *_"

Looking back over the data again and how much improvement that handle seems to make according to both these sources, if a manufacturer took the time to make a very robust handle mounted similar to what is on the Xeray/Lemax lights, and made the mounting point much larger and stronger, combine that taking notes from top PC fan manufacturers and make a larger and more efficient fan, and some changes to the heat fins and how the air circulates, I see no reason why this couldn't be used as a low cost cooling solution compared to the more complex and expensive solution Imalent uses. There is no requirement to have a radical design approach that must be made from the ground up, it's a quick, effective fix. That is of course provided that these future models show favorable data, like what has been shown for Acebeam solution. Unfortunately, the Imalents fans automatically engage, so it's not possible to do a test and see what the difference in performance is compared to the "Mickey Mouse" solution. 

More of these actively cooled lights will continue to appear on the market, it will be interesting to see what direction they go. I made a thread earlier this year discussing Liquid Cooling in LED lights. It's been done, and is highly effective.


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## BVH (Jul 21, 2020)

Liquid cooling for LED lights...Did you see the Syniosbeam by Enderman on FF?


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## DayofReckoning (Jul 21, 2020)

Magio said:


> Yeah the X70 was never meant to be an extreme thower. It does however throw just as far as the Polarion PH40 lights while having 15x the lumens.



While having a large selection of multiple different, super efficient lower brightness settings to choose from, down all the way to 700lumens, no bulbs to change or replace, and hugely more battery capacity and performance, all within an extremely robust and reliable shell that only the elitist's would scoff at. Did I mention it has a solid 5 year warranty and cost's $500?


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## XeRay (Jul 21, 2020)

I already bought that exact model, you want mine ? It includes 2 of the batteries for the handle and a dual batteries charger, make me an offer. The light has less than 2 hours of use total on it.


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## DayofReckoning (Jul 22, 2020)

XeRay said:


> I already bought that exact model, you want mine ? It includes 2 of the batteries for the handle and a dual batteries charger, make me an offer. The light has less than 2 hours of use total on it.



Haha, sounds tempting. Though knowing what I know, I'd trade this overpriced and outdated Lemax of mine for one in a heartbeat


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## alpg88 (Jul 22, 2020)

i wonder how polarion, or maxabeam compares to k75


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## DayofReckoning (Jul 22, 2020)

alpg88 said:


> i wonder how polarion, or maxabeam compares to k75



K75 blows away anything in the Polarion handheld lineup. Maxabeam is a one trick pony toy that has very little real world application other than looking really cool in Hollywood movies.


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## [email protected] (Jul 22, 2020)

alpg88 said:


> i wonder how polarion, or maxabeam compares to k75



Hi alpg88. I don't believe manufacturers should get in the mud commenting on competitors products, but I'd be happy to tell you a little bit about the Maxa Beam and you can come to your on conclusions. The Maxa Beam uses a pure xenon short-arc lamp. Due to this it really excels in a couple different areas. The xenon short-arc light source is extremely small so you can very effectively collimate the light being generated into a very tight beam. This results in the Maxa Beam having 12M CandlePower. This equates to 1 lux at 3500m (what we use when reporting range) or 0.25 lux at 7000m (The ANSI standard and what you will see a lot of manufacturers use to calculate range). The Maxa Beam also has a motorized beam width adjustment from spot to 40 degree flood that can be controlled via buttons with the hand holding the light. It also feature different beam intensities and a user-adjustable strobe mode.

The second commonly utilized feature of the Maxa Beam is it's infrared capabilities. The pure xenon lamp emits very heavily in the near IR region of the electromagnetic spectrum that common NVGs/scopes and many day/night cameras rely on. Several different IR filters can be attached to the front of the searchlight to block out the visible/white light and turn the light into a covert long-range IR "illuminator".

Hobbyist/collectors should come to their own determination on what they value in a light and if it is worth spending their money on. Generally speaking though, lights in this category are better thought of as tools for the vast majority of our customers. They are generally purchased for a specific task or to overcome a specific issue. 

I'd be happy to answer any additional questions you may have.


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## Magio (Jul 22, 2020)

I think the xenon short arc lamps are more fairly compared with LEP than they are LED.


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## alpg88 (Jul 22, 2020)

BVH said:


> Mickey Mouse both from an aesthetics and functional standpoint. The very narrow channel flow of air over maybe *20-30%* of only 180 degrees of the finned head surface creates a spot cooling scenario where you're going to have uneven cooling so uneven LED performance. The MS18, on the other hand, has no ugly glued-on afterthought looking handle. It has two fans 180 degrees opposed to each other and two exhaust outlets 90 degrees from the fan inlets. The result, 360 head cooling. In addition, it utilizes an internal mounted copper heatpipe system to further its' cooling efficiency. It conforms to industry standard norms. The stick-on handle is an inefficient embarrassment.
> 
> Having had both style lights, I can also say that while the handle fan moves air, the air coming off the fins is not that much warmer than ambient. It absorbs very little heat The air coming from the MS18 exhaust ports is quite warm, having picked up a lot of heat.



yea, however due to coanda effect that area is more than 20-30%. but that is not all, it does not have to blow over entire sink, just colling some portion of it, will make temp difference, heat moves faster where temp difference is greater, heat always moves to where it is cold, or colder, so that small fan is probably does the job just fine.


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## DayofReckoning (Jul 22, 2020)

alpg88 said:


> yea, however due to coanda effect that area is more than 20-30%. but that is not all, it does not have to blow over entire sink, just colling some portion of it, will make temp difference, heat moves faster where temp difference is greater, heat always moves to where it is cold, or colder, so that small fan is probably does the job just fine.



I posted two sources of data here in this thread that actually shows the measurable difference.


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## alpg88 (Jul 22, 2020)

[email protected] said:


> Hi alpg88. I don't believe manufacturers should get in the mud commenting on competitors products, but I'd be happy to tell you a little bit about the Maxa Beam and you can come to your on conclusions. The Maxa Beam uses a pure xenon short-arc lamp. Due to this it really excels in a couple different areas. The xenon short-arc light source is extremely small so you can very effectively collimate the light being generated into a very tight beam. This results in the Maxa Beam having 12M CandlePower. This equates to 1 lux at 3500m (what we use when reporting range) or 0.25 lux at 7000m (The ANSI standard and what you will see a lot of manufacturers use to calculate range). The Maxa Beam also has a motorized beam width adjustment from spot to 40 degree flood that can be controlled via buttons with the hand holding the light. It also feature different beam intensities and a user-adjustable strobe mode.
> 
> The second commonly utilized feature of the Maxa Beam is it's infrared capabilities. The pure xenon lamp emits very heavily in the near IR region of the electromagnetic spectrum that common NVGs/scopes and many day/night cameras rely on. Several different IR filters can be attached to the front of the searchlight to block out the visible/white light and turn the light into a covert long-range IR "illuminator".
> 
> ...



thanks for reply Matt, i do have a question, it would be interesting to know what manufacturer thinks, 
maxabeam was first introduced in mid 80s, leds did not exist back then, as far as practical illumination source, now leds are taking over every other light source, and are improving rapidly, what will happen to maxabeam? will it be still a short arc light, will leds find its way into the light?


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## [email protected] (Jul 22, 2020)

alpg88 said:


> thanks for reply Matt, i do have a question, it would be interesting to know what manufacturer thinks,
> maxabeam was first introduced in mid 80s, leds did not exist back then, as far as practical illumination source, now leds are taking over every other light source, and are improving rapidly, what will happen to maxabeam? will it be still a short arc light, will leds find its way into the light?



I'm all for transparency and information sharing, but generally I need to draw a line when it comes Peak Beam's focus on future development. I am definitely biased, but I believe the current Maxa Beam has been fine-tuned over the years to be the best manifestation of a xenon short-arc searchlight in handheld form. For users that rely on all of the advantages/features of the Maxa Beam searchlight and its accessories I do not think there is another SINGLE technology that can surpass it's performance.

There may be specific applications where current or not yet available technologies outperform the current Maxa Beam in a specific area, and depending on the end-user and what their objective is those other technologies may be a better fit for their specific application. This has always been the case and will continue to be. Generally speaking any new technologies that substantially outperforms the Maxa Beam in a specific area are on our radar and being researched further. Unfortunately I can't really go much beyond that.

Hope that was at least a somewhat satisfying non-answer


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## DayofReckoning (Jul 22, 2020)

[email protected] said:


> I'm all for transparency and information sharing, but generally I need to draw a line when it comes Peak Beam's focus on future development. I am definitely biased, but I believe the current Maxa Beam has been fine-tuned over the years to be the best manifestation of a xenon short-arc searchlight in handheld form. For users that rely on all of the advantages/features of the Maxa Beam searchlight and its accessories _*I do not think there is another SINGLE technology that can surpass it's performance*_.
> 
> There may be specific applications where current or not yet available technologies outperform the current Maxa Beam in a specific area, and depending on the end-user and what their objective is those other technologies may be a better fit for their specific application. This has always been the case and will continue to be. Generally speaking any new technologies that substantially outperforms the Maxa Beam in a specific area are on our radar and being researched further. Unfortunately I can't really go much beyond that.
> 
> Hope that was at least a somewhat satisfying non-answer



Have you looked into LEP technology? Not only do we have tiny inexpensive pocket sized LEP's that are easily hitting well over 2.2km, and well over 2mil candela, but Acebeam will soon be releasing models that are promising ranges up to 6km. And to think, this technology has literally just hit the consumer market, and is producing unbelievable results at literally pennies on the dollar compared to the current HID market. At the rate they are going, the Maxabeam's claim to fame of the longest throwing searchlight will only take a few shorts years to be surpassed. 

https://1lumen.com/news/acebeam-w50/

https://1lumen.com/21700-reviews/jetbeam-m1x/


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## [email protected] (Jul 22, 2020)

Hi DayofReckoning. You highlighted a key sentence from me but there is a very important reason I wrote "SINGLE" in all caps and also the context given in the first half of the sentence. A significant advantage of the Maxa Beam is to quickly convert from white light to IR. I was making a specific point about end-users that rely on ALL of the features of the Maxa Beam and the inability of another SINGLE technology/product to meet the full suite of capabilities the Maxa Beam has. Yes I am familiar with LEP technology.


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## DayofReckoning (Jul 22, 2020)

Thank you Matt.

Seems like as the newer technology from LED's and LEP's closes in on making HID irreverent in _nearly _every category, IR seems to be the one single category usage case where it still may have some relevance, so thank you for bringing the IR capabilities to my attention. Of course, it's easy to forget about IR and how useful it is to military/police, etc, when you are just the average guy who likes bright lights.


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## XeRay (Jul 22, 2020)

DayofReckoning said:


> Thank you Matt.
> 
> Seems like as the newer technology from LED's and LEP's closes in on making HID *IRRELEVANT* (sp) in _nearly _every category, IR seems to be the one single category usage case where it still may have some relevance, so thank you for bringing the IR capabilities to my attention. Of course, it's easy to forget about IR and how useful it is to military/police, etc, when you are just the average guy who likes bright lights.



Other HID's also produce plenty of IR and can be filtered as well (IR filters are available). The other additional option are LED's that are specific for IR output, they are already in use by the military etc.


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## badtziscool (Jul 22, 2020)

This has been an interesting thread to read through. Lots of valid points. My $0.02.

There's no doubt that LED technology has come a long way. And yes, there are some LED throwers that are currently available (using the SBT-90.2) that are nearly able to match the performance as these high grade HID systems. I think it's somewhat flawed to compare a manufacturer like Acebeam and Astrolux to Xevision or Polaron. Their target markets are completely different and thus design philosophies are different as well. I personally would not depend on Acebeam and Astrolux for my lighting duties if I was in a remote location or in a hostile environment where I have to have to have to HAVE TO depend on my light for my own survival. At the same time, I would never purchase Xevision or Polaron lights to take my kids to the park in the evening. Well.... I would if money was no object but I am a flashaholic. And I'm sure if Acebeam and Astrolux had to market their products to the customers that Xevision targets, they would be much more expensive and vice versa if Xevision had to target Acebeam's market.

Having said that though, I have yet to see anyone able to drive any LED hard enough to match the performance of high end HID lights, and do it for an extended period of time. All of them will automatically back off the output after 30 seconds to preserve the life of the LED. It would be interesting to see what all of these companies can come up with if they had to swap markets and design their respective lights for them.


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## DayofReckoning (Jul 22, 2020)

badtziscool said:


> This has been an interesting thread to read through. Lots of valid points. My $0.02.
> 
> There's no doubt that LED technology has come a long way. And yes, there are some LED throwers that are currently available (using the SBT-90.2) that are nearly able to match the performance as these high grade HID systems. I think it's somewhat flawed to compare a manufacturer like Acebeam and Astrolux to Xevision or Polaron. Their target markets are completely different and thus design philosophies are different as well. I personally would not depend on Acebeam and Astrolux for my lighting duties if I was in a remote location or in a hostile environment where I have to have to have to HAVE TO depend on my light for my own survival. At the same time, I would never purchase Xevision or Polaron lights to take my kids to the park in the evening. Well.... I would if money was no object but I am a flashaholic. And I'm sure if Acebeam and Astrolux had to market their products to the customers that Xevision targets, they would be much more expensive and vice versa if Xevision had to target Acebeam's market.
> 
> Having said that though, I have yet to see anyone able to drive any LED hard enough to match the performance of high end HID lights, and do it for an extended period of time. All of them will automatically back off the output after 30 seconds to preserve the life of the LED. It would be interesting to see what all of these companies can come up with if they had to swap markets and design their respective lights for them.



Badtziscool, I agree with some of your points. However, what we can do when discussing strictly performance, rather than use generalized terms like "High Grade HID" and the name brands associated like XeVision/Polarion, we can actually break down the numbers here and see what how the best LED's compare to the current HID's on the market. I believe the numbers will show a very different story than what you are telling.


Polarion PH50 4800 Lumens 1.5K Throw MSRP $1995
Polarion PH40 4000 Lumens 1.2 KM Throw MSRP $2095
XeVision XE-LX50 5300 Lumens 1.49 kM Throw MSRP $2298
XeVison XE-LX70 7500 Lumens 3 KM+ Throw MSRP $2587
XeVision XE-LX70 w/t SuperHead 7500 Lumens? 4.5 KM+Throw MSRP $?

Note LED numbers are Turn on and ANSI @30 seconds. Take note the BLFGT90 will sustain over 4000 lumens operation continuous.

Acebeam K75VN 5200/4800 Lumens 2.64KM Throw MSRP$279
LUMINTOP BLF GT90 7000/4970 Lumens 2.72KM Throw MSRP$349
Astrolux MF05 7000 Lumens? 3 KM Throw MSRP $569 3.1 

Couple of points to make here.

(a.) The numbers show that an LED, the SBT-90.2, is not only able to match some of those "high grade HID's", it can actually exceed some of them, and outthrow by a bit.

(b.) Heat is the biggest issue facing LEDs, and that is being addressed with active cooling now, and it's going to being to become a standard for the highest end lights from now on, more out of necessity than chasing numbers. As cooling gets better, we can slowly chip away at this "sustained output" advantage that *some* HID models have.

(c.) I don't consider this to be a "flawed" comparison. Rather, it's taking the best of one technology, and pitting it against another. LED vs HID. We are talking numbers here, and these numbers are not exactly a direct comparison between the different lights, but rather their performance alone. I understand they are two totally different lights, and two different markets, completely. And I also understand that when it comes to mission critical situations, it's the expensive HID's that will be chosen (but for how long). This thread is really more about a reality check to HID manufacturers of how close LED's are getting in terms of sheer performance. Their intended market and who buys what is an entire other subject.

(d.) Not every use case is just about throw distance. Massive amounts of light output at more reasonsable ranges is needed in many situations. The large, multi emitter LED's absolutley destroy all current HIDs on total sustained output. Furthermore, as output get higher and higher with newer multi emitter models, they will be able to start throwing very far due to sheer grunt in output. Single emitters will not be required for 1mil candela plus once the output gets high enough.

With that said, on output and throw, I believe we are just one single emitter, and one good cooling solution away from having a true "HID killer". Give it a few more years, and we'll bump this thread.


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## DayofReckoning (Jul 22, 2020)

XeRay said:


> Other HID's also produce plenty of IR and can be filtered as well (IR filters are available). The other additional option are LED's that are specific for IR output, they are already in use by the military etc.



Other HID's, like the Xe-Vision/Lemax also produce plenty of IR and can be filtered as well, *and still provide an actual useful beam, unlike the extremely limited laser like beam of the Maxabeam.*


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## Alex1234 (Jul 23, 2020)

I have the Imalent R90TS. 36,000 lumens and 1 million CD at turn on which definitely surpasses most HIDs. Now obviously it can only maintain 36,000 lumens for one minute but in person its insanely impressive for that one minute. It really is a well built light. the fans actually do a heck of a lot to keep the light cool. 




I also have a Maxtoch L2k LEP. I measured 2.1 million CD



maxtoch L2k LEP by Alex Littig, on Flickr


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## DayofReckoning (Jul 23, 2020)

Alex, I apologize for not including the the Imalent R90TS in my comparison. That looks extremely impressive. The LEP beamshot is amazing as well.

Obviously, every usage case is different, but in the real world, and real world applications, I almost have to question how relevant and useful long running continuous output really is. Do you leave your light on for extended periods of time? When you activate your lights turbo, is it with the intent of seeing maximum amount of light right away, or do you do it so that you can have the maximum output for long periods of time? Furthermore, I would make the argument that the instant full output of LED's actually make it a more useful tool versus waiting for the warm up of an HID. The very best models on the market take at least 10 seconds or more. Instant full power then a drop down, in my opinion, is more useful in real world applications than having low instant output, waiting for warm up, then maintaining a higher output for an extended period. The LED has already let you see what you need to see at full brightness, while the HID is still warming up.

This thread has had a lot conjecture without real numbers, with a little bit of myth thrown in too. Luckily, we've been able to break the numbers down here and see that the story is a bit different than what's being told when it comes to LED vs HID.


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## [email protected] (Jul 23, 2020)

Just wanted to note that xenon short-arc lights are instant on full output and can hot re-strike. @DayofReckoning have you personally used a Maxa Beam before?


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## DayofReckoning (Jul 23, 2020)

[email protected] said:


> Just wanted to note that xenon short-arc lights are instant on full output and can hot re-strike. @DayofReckoning have you personally used a Maxa Beam before?



Hi Matt, I was not aware of that, so I do consider that a big plus the Maxa beam has over other HID's. I know from experience that it can be frustrating with my Lemax LX50 waiting for the lamp to full heat, even though it takes only several seconds, when one is used to the instant max output of LED's.

I do not own a Maxa Beam, and have not used one, no, but I have been aware of this light for many years, and have seen more beamshots, user reports and "reviews" from fellow flashaholics, and videos than I can count. I have also seen many comparisons with other HID lights in direct comparisons. 

In fact, I had an older generation model on my Ebay watch list that I was very close to purchasing not long ago (it needed a battery, so selling price was cheap). Didn't pull the trigger as I was afraid of having to invest more money in it than what I wanted. 

It think it's an amazing light, for it's time. But I also believe there are better choices on the market right now that provide a more USEFUL light when it comes to real world applications. Lights like the Lemax/XE-Light can provide more than enough range for nearly every application, and still provide a very wide, useful beam with lots of useable, workable spill, versus the laser like beam of the Maxa Beam which really is best suited for long range illumination only. However, as you pointed out, the Maxa Beam has instant full output, and that is a big advantage.


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## Alex1234 (Jul 23, 2020)

I wish there was more HID flashlights available. There use to be hids on battery junction, wolf eyes, way more options when it came to the generic 85w hids. There was a few good ones out of all the junk ones. I remember the power on board hid, the Stanley hid and the jobsmart hid. Now almost no one makes hids anymore. Which is why when I saw the Firefox FF5 for sale I snagged one. 10000 lumens and a million cd is quite impressive for this size. That outperforms all the Polarian hids I think and a fraction of the coast.


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## XeRay (Jul 23, 2020)

[email protected] said:


> Just wanted to note that xenon short-arc lights are instant on full output and can hot re-strike. @DayofReckoning have you personally used a Maxa Beam before?



Polarion, Lemax, XeVision XeRay units are not full 100% output at "instant on" about 60% output at "instant on" then full perceived "ramped up" output within about 10-15 seconds. All of these units are hot restrike as well.
Only "short arc" has full 100% output at starting. Hot restrike only seems a problem for some if not most or all of the cheaper Asian made HID units in the past.

As for most if not all cooling fan implementations seen to date on LED lights, they are so far more of a "band-aid" to TRY to manage the heat. If it can't effectively pull the very localized heat generated at the source (at the LED base), then the high power setting run times will always be extremely limited. 
To do otherwise requires a lot of sophisticated engineering and more advanced heat management techniques than what's primarily found in these Asian made consumer grade lights. These performance enhancements add a lot of cost to the engineering, prototyping and manufacturing. Typical Asian (primarily Chinese) makers are always substantially compromising optimal performance to keep costs down and profits up.

It's my understanding that LEP (Laser Excited Phosphor) doesn't currently provide a very wide light spectrum (color rendering). Perhaps that can be improved in the future. Blue light has significant drawbacks for the performance of the human eye.


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## DayofReckoning (Jul 23, 2020)

XeRay said:


> Polarion, Lemax, XeVision XeRay units are not full 100% output at "instant on" about 60% output at "instant on" then full perceived "ramped up" output within about 10-15 seconds. All of these units are hot restrike as well.
> Only "short arc" has full 100% output at starting. Hot restrike only seems a problem for some if not most or all of the cheaper Asian made HID units in the past.
> 
> As for most if not all cooling fan implementations seen to date on LED lights, they are so far more of a "band-aid" to TRY to manage the heat. If it can't effectively pull the very localized heat generated at the source (at the LED base), then the high power setting run times will always be extremely limited.
> ...



90+CRI LEP's have been available for a while now

https://www.acebeam.com/w30


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## alpg88 (Jul 23, 2020)

not that long ago i bought a really good thrower, e10, but i find it next to useless in real world conditions with its very narrow, little spill beam, LEP seem to have even narrower beam and even less spill. maxabeam at least has adjustable focus, it can be a flooder, thou beam pattern is pretty ugly, but it does the job.


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## DayofReckoning (Jul 23, 2020)

Maxabeam doesn't fit in your jacket pocket, as cost's 8 times as much. LEP also can use diffusers to produce a more flood beam. To be fair, Maxabeam can as well.

Different products and target audience though.


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## XeRay (Jul 23, 2020)

alpg88 said:


> Maxabeam at least has adjustable focus, it can be a flooder, thou beam pattern is pretty ugly, but it does the job.



The total lumens are relatively low, so that when the adjusted focus is spread out (floody) there is minimal throw to be had, then there is the dark "donut hole" aspect as well.



DayofReckoning said:


> Different products and target audience though.



All of these different issues and benefits with each technology, it all depends on your "Mission" (application). Which is the most suitable to the ACTUAL needs and wants of the intended user ? Then there are budget constraints as well to be considered.

Its no different than guns, there are rifles of different calibers, from a 22 to a 300 magnum or even an elephant gun, different shotguns and pistols. I prefer 30-06 (scoped or open sights both) 95% of the time for big game (Mule Deer, Elk or Moose), 300 magnum for Mtn Goat. (longer range - flatter shooting). 22LR or 22 magnum for target shooting and "varmints", 12ga pump for upland game and waterfowl and 9mm for pistols (self protection and target practice).,


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## XeRay (Jul 23, 2020)

DayofReckoning said:


> Badtziscool, I agree with some of your points. However, what we can do when discussing strictly performance, rather than use generalized terms like "High Grade HID" and the name brands associated like XeVision.



minor corrections made below from your quoted post above.

XeVision XV-LX50 5300 Lumens MSRP $2298
XeVison XV-LX70 7500 (8000) Lumens MSRP $2587
XeVision XV-LX70 SP SuperPower Head 7500 (8000) Lumens MSRP $3,295.00 

We do NOT actively promote the Superpower head version, only by special order.


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## DayofReckoning (Jul 23, 2020)

XeRay said:


> minor corrections made below from your quoted post above.
> 
> XeVision XV-LX50 5300 Lumens MSRP $2298
> XeVison XV-LX70 7500 (8000) Lumens MSRP $2587
> ...



Sorry about that, truly wasn't trying to misquote or under-represent your products.

I have been quite critical of HID in this thread, obviously. However, in the current market of HID's that are available, if a party absolutely requires HID and nothing else, it is my opinion that the Xe-Ray/Lemax LX50/LX70 are the finest HID's on the market at this time.


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## idleprocess (Jul 23, 2020)

badtziscool said:


> Having said that though, I have yet to see anyone able to drive any LED hard enough to match the performance of high end HID lights, and do it for an extended period of time. All of them will automatically back off the output after 30 seconds to preserve the life of the LED. It would be interesting to see what all of these companies can come up with if they had to swap markets and design their respective lights for them.



HID is decidedly heat-insensitive _relative to the LEDs of today_ which is a significant performance advantage in almost anything as small and relatively handy as a <12" diameter spotlight formfactor. The capsule itself is made of high-quality glass to resist the intense pressures and temperatures associated with striking and maintaining that arc. Ballasts are also made with high-power components using mature designs with the good designs packaged in housings that are basically heatsinks to minimize component degradation.

LED on the other hand has to operate at _something closer to room temperature_. Yes, 85C binning and the ability to last longer at higher temps is improving LED performance under real-world conditions. But a handheld device only has so much volume/mass for passive thermal management and only so much power margin for active thermal management. Also, regardless of how the heat is sunk to air, the more complex the scheme the less the _you don't have to think about it_ casual environmental resistance of the modern LED flashlight.

I expect LED to steadily creep into the middle ground over time - especially as their sensitivity to temperature declines over time with successive improvements in thermal ruggedness - but the inherent challenges of heat management, and their 2D emitting surface vs arc lamps' semi 1D emitting surface will prove challenging in applications where extremes of throw are a critical design goal. But that middle ground sure is yielding - pocket LED throwers, automotive headlights in formfactors comparable to bixenon units, stadium lighting, airliner landing lights, highway light standards, parking lot lights - and probably some other applications that HID and MHI used to dominate.



Alex1234 said:


> I wish there was more HID flashlights available. There use to be hids on battery junction, wolf eyes, way more options when it came to the generic 85w hids. There was a few good ones out of all the junk ones. I remember the power on board hid, the Stanley hid and the jobsmart hid. Now almost no one makes hids anymore. Which is why when I saw the Firefox FF5 for sale I snagged one. 10000 lumens and a million cd is quite impressive for this size. That outperforms all the Polarian hids I think and a fraction of the coast.



HID is inherently more expensive than LED with its high-energy physics in the capsule and ballast which must _ignite_ the arc with kilovolt DC pulse(s) then transition to stable operation with AC. Contrast with LED: low-voltage DC, operates at near-room temperatures, effectively zero UV, lower power demands, far smaller formfactors, can trivially operate at many brightness levels, and is insensitive to on/off cycling.


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## DayofReckoning (Jul 23, 2020)

The Acebeam K75's reflector is flawless and excellent. It produces an incredibly intense beam that is significantly more intense than the LX50's, while still providing ample spill. The LX50 has a larger, more impressive spill area though, but the beam is much less intense, and throw is much less as well, even when the K75 is fully heat saturated. The K75's reflector is also significantly larger than the LX50's. 

Overall output is close on the Acebeam K75 at turn on versus the Lemax at full brightness, and when K75 is fully saturated with heat, is slightly less than the Lemax. It is not a large difference, and one that you have to actually look for to notice. A quick 30 second shutoff and cool down and you can go back to max brightness.

The most impressive part of the K75 is it's 3 lumen moonlight mode, which is easily access with a long press, and is soft and dim enough for reading a map, or a late trip to the bathroom. All within a very small and compact form factor, of high quality and integrity. the $270 price tag and 5 year warranty didn't hurt either. I've been on the fence about getting mine modded by Skylumen for even more performance.


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## DayofReckoning (Jul 23, 2020)

Alex1234 said:


> I wish there was more HID flashlights available. There use to be hids on battery junction, wolf eyes, way more options when it came to the generic 85w hids. There was a few good ones out of all the junk ones. I remember the power on board hid, the Stanley hid and the jobsmart hid. Now almost no one makes hids anymore. Which is why when I saw the Firefox FF5 for sale I snagged one. 10000 lumens and a million cd is quite impressive for this size. That outperforms all the Polarian hids I think and a fraction of the coast.



Please report back on the Firefox FF5 Alex. It looks to be a sizeable upgrade to the FF4. Though the small compact nature of the FF4 could be an advantage. The best thing about the Firefox lights is the battery carrier and the ability to use off the shelf 18650's, no proprietary battery packs. You are absolutely right that it is an incredible value for the money.


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## Alex1234 (Jul 23, 2020)

DayofReckoning said:


> Please report back on the Firefox FF5 Alex. It looks to be a sizeable upgrade to the FF4. Though the small compact nature of the FF4 could be an advantage. The best thing about the Firefox lights is the battery carrier and the ability to use off the shelf 18650's, no proprietary battery packs. You are absolutely right that it is an incredible value for the money.



It would be cool if there was a short arc bulb that could be used in the FF5. The throw would be insane. I know its possible. I remember when Ra made the Maxablaster, i dont remember if it was him or someone else that also make a handheld shortarc flashlight in a similar size as the FF5.


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## XeRay (Jul 24, 2020)

Alex1234 said:


> It would be cool if there was a short arc bulb that could be used in the FF5. The throw would be insane. I know its possible. I remember when Ra made the Maxablaster, i dont remember if it was him or someone else that also make a handheld shortarc flashlight in a similar size as the FF5.



The ballast would also have to be swapped, a short arc bulb (excited Xenon ONLY inside) and ballast are very much different "animals" than ballasts used for Metal Halide plasma HID. In MH, the Xenon is only used for the initial start up for some few seconds max. In MH HID, after that initial start sequence the excited plasma takes over, being much brighter than only Xenon.
Xenon short ARC in the Maxabeam size systems gets in the ballpark of 20 Lumens per watt, Well designed MH HID also at about 75 watts is about 115 lumens per input bulb watt. At 50 watts close to 110 lumens per watt.
At 35 watts HID, only about 92 lumens per watt.
You can get a much tighter beam with short arc (due to the much smaller arc size) but the Lumens per watt efficiency simply is not there. However, what Xenon Short Arc does well, it does very well.


----------



## XeRay (Jul 24, 2020)

DayofReckoning said:


> The Acebeam K75's reflector is flawless and excellent. It produces an incredibly intense beam that is significantly more intense than the LX50's, while still providing ample spill. The LX50 has a larger, more impressive spill area though, but the beam is much less intense, and throw is much less as well, even when the K75 is fully heat saturated. The K75's reflector is also significantly larger than the LX50's.
> 
> Overall output is close on the Acebeam K75 at turn on versus the Lemax at full brightness, and when K75 is fully saturated with heat, is slightly less than the Lemax



A couple of things you likely have not taken into account in your subjective analysis without using a Lux meter. Your LX50 is a very early generation, likely about 10 years old from seeing that metal handle. Your well used bulb likely needs changing and down to 60 or 70% of a new bulb output. Also this an older reflector not electroformed. To fairly make your inended comparisons, your would need a more recently made Lemax or XeVision unit, with a relatively new bulb.


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## Rasher (Jul 24, 2020)

DayofReckoning said:


> <Wall of text>


A used beetle turbo s has big performance/$. But it will never be a Ferrari. 

The quality/durability of the serious HID lights is dramatically higher than mass-produced toys.

If one does not have the need, or just the want, and the willingness to throw the shekels at a top-flight product, nothing wrong with settling for the low-cost mass-produced substitutes.

Just my 2 cents, as an owner of most of the HID mentioned here, half-a-dozen or so LEP units, and all of the big-hitter LED throwers, stock and modded.


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## Rasher (Jul 24, 2020)

XeRay said:


> ...It's my understanding that LEP (Laser Excited Phosphor) doesn't currently provide a very wide light spectrum (color rendering).


No, they certainly don't. Frankly, even the "High CRI" LEP I own look like poop compared to even a mediocre LED. But then, CRI is not their raison d'etre...


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## DayofReckoning (Jul 24, 2020)

XeRay said:


> A couple of things you likely have not taken into account in your subjective analysis without using a Lux meter. Your LX50 is a very early generation, likely about 10 years old from seeing that metal handle. Your well used bulb likely needs changing and down to 60 or 70% of a new bulb output. Also this an older reflector not electroformed. To fairly make your inended comparisons, your would need a more recently made Lemax or XeVision unit, with a relatively new bulb.



Some problems with your post.

(1.) The entire light and bulb has very little use, and the condition supports that. I have a detailed report from the previous owner who says "Only a few hours use". The glass envelope is crystal clear. It does not need a new lamp, and even if it was old and did, it wouldn't matter, which I will explain. 

(2.) It's not subjective, and I don't need a lux meter. Why? Because the K75, which has had many, many different reliable independent sources, which I can all link right here, many right here in this forum, all with different samples, verify this light has a true candela of over 1.5 mil, with many samples capable of up to 1.8mil. 

The LX50, and the XV-LX50 that you sell, cannot compete with it in throw. It can reach 2500meters. Your own XV-LX50 is listed as 1500m. I believe the specs are similar on this older model. Your reflector is good I'm sure, and probably does make a difference, but it wouldn't matter. That reflector will not be able to make up 1000m more the K75 has. Besides, when I compare the beams outside, a blind man could see the K75 easily wins. 

They are dirt cheap. Don't believe me? Pick one up and see for yourself.



Like I said, it's not subjective. The K75 easily beats this older Lemax, and your XV-lx50.


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## DayofReckoning (Jul 24, 2020)

Rasher said:


> A used beetle turbo s has big performance/$. But it will never be a Ferrari.
> 
> The quality/durability of the serious HID lights is dramatically higher than mass-produced toys.
> 
> ...



Not one single thing you have said has been disputed through out this entire thread. I agree with all above points.


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## DayofReckoning (Jul 24, 2020)

Rasher said:


> No, they certainly don't. Frankly, even the "High CRI" LEP I own look like poop compared to even a mediocre LED. But then, CRI is not their raison d'etre...



The lights are advertised as 90+CRI. Perhaps you have some light analysis showing these are falsely advertised as High CRI when they are not.

And I agree, the High CRI does look like the expletive you used. But your opinion as to how they look has no bearing on whether or not they are able to render colors at a higher level than cool white. If you show me the data saying they do not produce a CRI of over 80, I will stand corrected. If not, I'll include this in with some of the other stuff I've had to cleanup throught out this thread.


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## Rasher (Jul 24, 2020)

DayofReckoning said:


> The lights are advertised as 90+CRI. Perhaps you have some light analysis showing these are falsely advertised as High CRI when they are not.
> 
> And I agree, the High CRI does look like the expletive you used. But your opinion as to how they look has no bearing on whether or not they are able to render colors at a higher level than cool white. If you show me the data saying they do not produce a CRI of over 80, I will stand corrected. If not, I'll include this in with some of the other stuff I've had to cleanup throught out this thread.


I said nothing about the actual measurement, so take your high horse and ride on out of here.


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## DayofReckoning (Jul 24, 2020)

Xe-Ray Quote "_...I__t's my understanding that LEP (Laser Excited Phosphor) *doesn't currently provide a very wide light spectrum (color rendering).*

_




Rasher said:


> _*No, they certainly don't.*_ Frankly, even the "High CRI" LEP I own look like poop compared to even a mediocre LED. But then, CRI is not their raison d'etre...





Rasher said:


> I said nothing about the actual measurement, so take your high horse and ride on out of here.



Perhaps you should take another look at your reply. Something that is advertised as 90+ CRI easily qualifies as High CRI under almost anyone's standards. Your post claims LEPs DO NOT produce a very wide light spectrum.

At this point, either (a.) the advertising is wrong, and your observation and expletive description should be taken at as fact (b.) LEP's do exist that have a wide light spectrum.


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## Magio (Jul 24, 2020)

There are plenty of technical papers out there showing that high CRI LEP's are easily achievable, and are in production. Here is a link to one such paper. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5744342/


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## XeRay (Jul 24, 2020)

DayofReckoning said:


> Some problems with your post.
> 
> (1.) The entire light and bulb has very little use, and the condition supports that. I have a detailed report from the previous owner who says "Only a few hours use". The glass envelope is crystal clear. It does not need a new lamp, and even if it was old and did, it wouldn't matter, which I will explain.
> 
> ...





search_and_rescue said:


> I tried out the Acebeam K75 and it’s insufficient for just lighting to the end of a wash, about 0.6 mile.





search_and_rescue said:


> I tested the Acebeam K75 again tonight. There is a halo around the defined hotspot. That halo is what causes the beam to not be able to hit the El Monte Airport hangar building located directly 0.6 or 0.7 mile or so “downstream” the Arcadia Wash. What I am saying is that the hotspot becomes like a flood beam at its tip. Yes it throws far but at its tip it is not tight enough of a defined hotspot to lay bright light on anything beyond 500 meters. The beam floods out before it reaches the end of the wash, 0.6 or 0.7 mile or so distant. lovecpf



From the LED thread not HID discussing this same subject.

Just because someone claims minimal use, that's hardly dependable. HID bulbs don't loose output by getting cloudy they do such purely from hours of use.
Our ratings are conservative, hardly what the Chinese are known for.
Lux meters are indisputable, subjective untrained eyes are not.


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## DayofReckoning (Jul 24, 2020)

XeRay said:


> From the LED thread not HID discussing this same subject.
> 
> Just because someone claims minimal use, that's hardly dependable. HID bulbs don't loose output by getting cloudy they do such purely from hours of use.
> Our ratings are conservative, hardly what the Chinese are known for.
> Lux meters are indisputable, subjective untrained eyes are not.



Just came back inside from doing a quick comparison outside, I will get to in a moment. I understand your points, I do learn much from your knowledge and posts here.

Just a couple of things. If the light physically shows little signs of any real use, it's reasonable to assume it hasn't been used much. I do not want to argue about the lamp any further, simply because it's impossible for us to completely know for sure. I feel the bulb is fine and a non issue.

You are absolutely correct about the Chinese. They inflate the numbers badly. some very badly. Good thing is we have people here on CPF who are very knowledgeable. And across different samples, they can test these. I can post you all the hard data showing this light does indeed produce that candela. That's the only reason I use those figures, because they are correct.

I believe that the LX50 produces a very fine beam and is better in some ways to the K75. But purely throw, no it is not better. Did another test outside and at turn on the K75 very easily beats the LX50, and allowing the light to saturate with heat for 2 to 3 minutes, the K75 throws noticeably farther. The LX50 is still impressive because it's lighting up more spill in front of you, but the hotspot is much less intense. I will also note that the hotspot is also larger on the K75. The K75 has a much, much larger reflector, so keep in mind the LX50 does very well for having such a smaller reflector.

XeRay, can you tell us what your XV-LX50, with a fresh bulb, does on a lux meter? How much candela does it produce one the output settles?

These measurements are all taken at ANSI standard 30 seconds. Turn on CD is even higher.

https://zeroair.org/2019/12/04/acebeam-k75-flashlight-review/ *1540243cd
*https://1lumen.com/18650-reviews/acebeam-k75/ *1565000cd * 
**https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DQAQigVoNSw *1562500cd
*https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ojVBqfMVQlc&t=126s *1697299cd

*https://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?461340-Acebeam-K75vn-Ultimate-Budget-Thrower-RAnd if someone's willing to pay extra, up to *1750000cd *


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## DayofReckoning (Jul 24, 2020)

Those anecdotal reports that you actually linked to previously, and went back and edited, are hardly proof of anything. It is quite interesting that you use strawman's and accuse my report of being subjective, yet provide someones else's subjective report as some type of validation. The only reason you link those reports is because they support go in your favour.

Lets move away from user reports and talk numbers. 

Now, as you representing XeVison, can you please provide what type of candela numbers your XV LX50 produces?


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## Rasher (Jul 25, 2020)

DayofReckoning said:


> <Another wall of text>


I'll do myself the favor and block you, quite an irritating little thing, aren't you?


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## ubangi (Jul 25, 2020)

Has anyone thought about the Maxabeam MBS-410 made by peakbeam systems? It seems like it might be one of the most powerful throwers.


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## DayofReckoning (Jul 25, 2020)

ubangi said:


> Has anyone thought about the Maxabeam MBS-410 made by peakbeam systems? It seems like it might be one of the most powerful throwers.



Yes, the Maxabeam is an incredible thrower, and the best money can buy in this regard. It has a true laser like beam. How useful this type of beam is for tasks is debatable, but when it comes to strictly throwing a beam as far as possible, The Maxabeam is the best choice.


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## Alex1234 (Jul 26, 2020)

I have this Amazon DC 55W 9 inch HID spotlight and here i compare it to my K75vn90 with Driver VNX2 that does 5,300 OTF lumens and 1.75 Million CD. I measured the HID at 1.3 Million CD. 

It still amazes me that LED can compete and in this case beat a somewhat impressive HID spotlight. I wish i could upgrade the Bulb on the HID





55W 9 inch HID VS K75VN90 by Alex Littig, on Flickr


K75vn90 vs 55W HID 9 inch by Alex Littig, on Flickr



1111 by Alex Littig, on Flickr


*(K75vn90)*


2222 by Alex Littig, on Flickr

*(Amazon 55W 9 inch HID)
*

3333 by Alex Littig, on Flickr


*(K75vn90)*


4444 by Alex Littig, on Flickr


*(Amazon 55W 9 inch HID)
*

5555 by Alex Littig, on Flickr


*(K75vn90)*


6666 by Alex Littig, on Flickr


*(Amazon 55W 9 inch HID)
*

7777 by Alex Littig, on Flickr


*(K75vn90)*


8888 by Alex Littig, on Flickr


*(Amazon 55W 9 inch HID)
*

9999 by Alex Littig, on Flickr


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## DayofReckoning (Jul 26, 2020)

Amazing beamshots! 

I'm so impressed the K75 is able to beat that huge reflectored HID, goes to show how well it is engineered, I think it took Acebeam a long time to design the K75, wasn't cooked up overnight.

Now just imagine if the SBT-90GEN LED was installed in a reflector that large. And imagine what the successor to the K75 will look like.

I think there can be cases in the HID side of the market where some just don't follow the manufacturers making these LED lights, and they don't realize how far LED, and more importantly, Chinese manufacturing, has really come. Many just assume that HID is superior because that is what has been the case for a long time. Things have changed. We've shown that in this thread.


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## Rasher (Jul 26, 2020)

It is the farthest throwing generally available thrower. And based on the performance of my copy, I'd have to say PeakBeam underrates them. It can put a crazy intense spot on distant targets that makes my LEPs look completely impotent. 

Unlike the LEPs though, or the conventional LED throwers in the collection, it's not a toy, not built like one, so you pay the shekels...

The variable beam size makes it actually useful for searching and verification - you can sweep with a wider beam then zoom in as needed. Really quite nice.


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## Rasher (Jul 26, 2020)

Alex1234 said:


> I have this Amazon DC 55W 9 inch HID spotlight and here i compare it to my K75vn90 with Driver VNX2 that does 5,300 OTF lumens and 1.75 Million CD. ...


Not bad for an HID that was probably 1/4 to 1/3 the cost of the modded K75.

I'm just hoping the 50Mcd project by you-know-who gets done... I presume you''re on the list.


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## XeRay (Jul 26, 2020)

What "Amazon sellers" call 55 watt HID is only 40 to 45 watts to the bulb, the Chinese stuff always uses ballast input watts not ballast output watts as is the industry standard for rating HID (established in Europe). Chinese makers always look for ways to inflate their numbers. The ballast controls the watts to the bulb, not the bulb as in incandescent bulbs.


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## XeRay (Jul 26, 2020)

Until LED in a handheld with internal batteries can adequately manage the heat for sustained periods of time without seriously reduced LED and electronics durability and life. Low cost LED still has a long way to go in this aspect before it can rival HID handheld searchlights.
The costs involved to do it correctly are such that a professional or military grade unit will have a very similar cost or possibly higher than the current prices for high grade HID.
Adding an external fan in the handle can't do the job. That's a bandaid. The real solution is not only heatsinking, the localized extreme heat at the high-powered LED(s) cannot be adequately pulled away by an external fan. As of yet, nothing has otherwise been proven here. Things are changing but haven't gotten there yet.
We in fact are in development (for some years now) of such a thing.


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## Rasher (Jul 26, 2020)

XeRay said:


> ...nothing has otherwise been proven here.


Amen. 
Much babbling by non-owners though about product they've never used... lol.

You still have the remaining 85? Used mine a couple a days ago, potential customer in someone that saw it. I passed them your contact info.


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## Alex1234 (Jul 26, 2020)

XeRay said:


> What "Amazon sellers" call 55 watt HID I only 40 to 45 watts to the bulb, the Chinese stuff always uses ballast input watts not ballast output watts as is the industry standard for rating HID (established in Europe). Chinese makers always look for ways to inflate their numbers. The ballast controls the watts to the bulb, not the bulb as in incandescent bulbs.




I would love to be able to mod this HID light for more output and throw however i dont know much about HID, The bulb looks easily replaceable. I would love to get a lower Kelvin bulb. I am assuming i would need an upgraded ballast and bulb.


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## toolboy (Jul 26, 2020)

I have to agree with XeRay, and this isn't because I have one of his HID searchlights. I have several LEDs and there are several aspects of LEDS where they lose to HIDs. First is heat, heat in LEDs dramatically limit run time at high output. The very largest LEDs out here have fans installed in them to try to help cool them but this completely compromises water integrity, only slightly helps with runtime, and opens then up to damage due to dust and dirt. Even with fans the 100,000 lumens only run around a minute before stepdown. The higher the LED output, the shorter the runtime before thermal shutdown. A handheld searchlight with only a couple minutes runtime before stepdown is worthless in a practicality aspect. While it might be cool to show your friends, in a real emergency it will burn your hands and step down before you can start your task. 

It is for this reason I run a 6000 lumen Fenix LED duty light with a 20 minute time on full and then steps down to 4000 after that. It is about the best practical tradeoff of time to stepdown vs. output I have found. I also have a 85/40 watt HID with multiple heads. The HID runs near 10000 lumens indefinitely without any stepdown. It also provides color rendition few LEDs on the market offer. This is key for recognizing differing objects at great distances. It is also military spec on its qualities and capabilities. 

There are a lot of cheat HID and LEDs on the market with highly inflated ratings. But even the best manufacturers of LEDs have not come close to the performance and capabilities of high quality HIDs. I use my HIDs for rescue calls and my LEDs on other emergency calls. Both have a place but one does not replace the other. High quality HIDs cost a lot of money, but that is because they can do what no other lights can, run continuously at high output indefinitely. With my 12 volt adapter, my HID has unlimited runtime and 100 meter water capability with the correct head and double seals. Show me any hand held LED searchlight that can claim the same.


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## XeRay (Jul 26, 2020)

Rasher said:


> You still have the remaining 85? Used mine a couple a days ago, potential customer in someone that saw it. I passed them your contact info.



PM sent


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## XeRay (Jul 26, 2020)

Alex1234 said:


> I would love to be able to mod this HID light for more output and throw however i dont know much about HID, The bulb looks easily replaceable. I would love to get a lower Kelvin bulb. I am assuming i would need an upgraded ballast and bulb.



Call us at XeVision, yes both bulb and ballast, what kind of bulb base does it have ? Photos ? If not D2S or D1S standard bulb bases, we can't help you much.
Lower Kelvin bulbs do have substantially higher Lumens output (20 to 35%) and better color rendition. Also European HID bulbs have better lumens performance as well.


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## XeRay (Jul 26, 2020)

toolboy said:


> I have to agree with XeRay, and this isn't because I have one of his HID searchlights. I have several LEDs and there are several aspects of LEDS where they lose to HIDs. First is heat, heat in LEDs dramatically limit run time at high output. The very largest LEDs out here have fans installed in them to try to help cool them but this completely compromises water integrity, only slightly helps with runtime, and opens then up to damage due to dust and dirt. Even with fans the 100,000 lumens only run around a minute before stepdown. The higher the LED output, the shorter the runtime before thermal shutdown. A handheld searchlight with only a couple minutes runtime before stepdown is worthless in a practicality aspect. While it might be cool to show your friends, in a real emergency it will burn your hands and step down before you can start your task.
> 
> It is for this reason I run a 6000 lumen Fenix LED duty light with a 20 minute time on full and then steps down to 4000 after that. It is about the best practical tradeoff of time to stepdown vs. output I have found. I also have a 85/40 watt HID with multiple heads. The HID runs near 10000 lumens indefinitely without any stepdown. It also provides color rendition few LEDs on the market offer. This is key for recognizing differing objects at great distances. It is also military spec on its qualities and capabilities.
> 
> There are a lot of cheat HID and LEDs on the market with highly inflated ratings. But even the best manufacturers of LEDs have not come close to the performance and capabilities of high quality HIDs. I use my HIDs for rescue calls and my LEDs on other emergency calls. Both have a place but one does not replace the other. High quality HIDs cost a lot of money, but that is because they can do what no other lights can, run continuously at high output indefinitely. With my 12 volt adapter, my HID has unlimited runtime and 100 meter water capability with the correct head and double seals. Show me any hand held LED searchlight that can claim the same.



It seems "DayofReckoning" is on a 1 man crusade for the definitive superiority of LED.


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## DayofReckoning (Jul 26, 2020)

XeRay said:


> Until LED in a handheld with internal batteries can adequately manage the heat for sustained periods of time without seriously reduced LED and electronics durability and life. Low cost LED still has a long way to go in this aspect before it can rival HID handheld searchlights.
> The costs involved to do it correctly are such that a professional or military grade unit will have a very similar cost or possibly higher than the current prices for high grade HID.
> Adding an external fan in the handle can't do the job. That's a bandaid. The real solution is not only heatsinking, the localized extreme heat at the high-powered LED(s) cannot be adequately pulled away by an external fan. As of yet, nothing has otherwise been proven here. Things are changing but haven't gotten there yet.
> We in fact are in development (for some years now) of such a thing.



Notice how the goal post has now moved to another topic now? I made an observation about strictly the performance of the two instruments in hand, you made a claim that my test was invalid and "subjective", ample evidence was shown that YOU were INCORRECT, then comment "Nothing has been proven here". No, what was proven is that an LED exists that outperforms your $2300 HID. It has nothing to do with the intended market, what grade components was used, any of that. Talking about Amazon and how they overrate lights, perhaps you could provide those candela numbers like I asked for previously. Or you could just acknowledge that LED outperforms your light. We're not comparing what can be run over with a car here. Yours wins there. 



toolboy said:


> I have to agree with XeRay, and this isn't because I have one of his HID searchlights. I have several LEDs and there are several aspects of LEDS where they lose to HIDs. First is heat, heat in LEDs dramatically limit run time at high output. The very largest LEDs out here have fans installed in them to try to help cool them but this completely compromises water integrity, only slightly helps with runtime, and opens then up to damage due to dust and dirt. *Even with fans the 100,000 lumens only run around a minute before stepdown*. The higher the LED output, the shorter the runtime before thermal shutdown. *A handheld searchlight with only a couple minutes runtime before stepdown is worthless in a practicality aspect.* *While it might be cool to show your friends, in a real emergency it will burn your hands and step down before you can start your task. *
> 
> *It is for this reason I run a 6000 lumen Fenix LED duty light with a 20 minute time on full and then steps down to 4000 after that.* It is about the best practical tradeoff of time to stepdown vs. output I have found. I also have a 85/40 watt HID with multiple heads. *The HID runs near 10000 lumens indefinitely without any stepdown.* It also provides color rendition few LEDs on the market offer. This is key for recognizing differing objects at great distances. It is also military spec on its qualities and capabilities.
> 
> *There are a lot of cheat HID and LEDs on the market with highly inflated ratings. But even the best manufacturers of LEDs have not come close to the performance and capabilities of high quality HIDs.* I use my HIDs for rescue calls and my LEDs on other emergency calls. Both have a place but one does not replace the other. High quality HIDs cost a lot of money, but that is because they can do what no other lights can, run continuously at high output indefinitely. With my 12 volt adapter, my HID has unlimited runtime and 100 meter water capability with the correct head and double seals. Show me any hand held LED searchlight that can claim the same.



Toolboy, I agree with some of your points, and you are correct on some of them, but others you are repeating the same old stuff we have already shown in this thread to be false.

(1.) Right, and that LED light is still putting out many more times the amount of light as XeVisions brightest HID, or anyone's best HID as far as I can see, even when fully heat saturated.

(2.) How is a searchlight that puts out 6 to 10 times more output more than an HID useless? How is a stepdown, which still results in a light that is still brighter than any HID, render a searchlight useless? I would like to hear the mechnisims behind this.

(3.) The large lights have carrying handles, and the large one's with a lot of mass don't do not get uncomfortably hot to hold. Not a good arguement.

(4.) Your Fenix is a good light, but it's output and capabilities are anemic. Other's are putting out pocket lights that can output that for short periods.

(5.) Many LED lights can do that, though they start out higher, and settle at that amount or more. 

(6.)Yes, they do inflate numbers. But there are long term reputable manufacturers who don't, and the lights get tested independintely, with enough people and samples where we can know what a particular model outputs.

(7.) This again. Look at the specifications and different lights I've listed throughout this thread since the beginning. A member has even posted beamshots of some of his that will easily beat most high end HIDs on sheer performance. In regards to total output, throw, sustained output, what you are claiming is just totally untrue. 

I'm not doubting some of the points that have been made here and by XeRay. The heat is most certainly an issue, and I am not sitting here thinking these cheap china toys are any replacement for the High End HID's, cause they are not.

This entire thread went this direction because a Polarion rep, as well as others, have claimed that LED's cannot match HID's when it comes to sheer performance, and performance only, and that's been shown here to just simply not be true. 

The only single as thing we seem like clinging onto here is this heat argument, which is valid, but they seem to ignore that LED's are going to keep getting more and more efficient, which means more brightness without having to push as hard.


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## DayofReckoning (Jul 26, 2020)

XeRay said:


> It seems "DayofReckoning" is on a 1 man crusade for the definitive superiority of LED.



Not all all. And I'm not trying to convince anyone that those Chinese toys are going to replace your XeVision Lights. I don't even like LED's, I'm serious, I'm a Xenon/halogen lamp guy. I'm just counteracting the fudd about LED's not being able to match the brightness or throw or HID's. In that regard, I feel I've been quite efficient.


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## XeRay (Jul 26, 2020)

DayofReckoning said:


> Not all all. And I'm not trying to convince anyone that those Chinese toys are going to replace your XeVision Lights. I don't even like LED's, I'm serious, I'm a Xenon/halogen lamp guy. I'm just counteracting the fudd about LED's not being able to match the brightness or throw or HID's. In that regard, I feel I've been quite efficient.



Do you honestly believe those 60,000 lumens numbers?
It would take 400 to 600 watts of input energy to accomplish that. I suspect those raw lumens claims are at least double if not triple that of reality. Until someone on CPF with established and unquestionable integrity (track record here) tests these LED units, the claimed numbers are irrelevant.


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## DayofReckoning (Jul 26, 2020)

We're done. Mark Twain comes to mind at the moment.


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## Alex1234 (Jul 26, 2020)

XeRay said:


> Call us at XeVision, yes both bulb and ballast, what kind of bulb base does it have ? Photos ? If not D2S or D1S standard bulb bases, we can't help you much.
> Lower Kelvin bulbs do have substantially higher Lumens output (20 to 35%) and better color rendition. Also European HID bulbs have better lumens performance as well.






hid 1 by Alex Littig, on Flickr



hid 2 by Alex Littig, on Flickr



hid 3 by Alex Littig, on Flickr



hid 4 by Alex Littig, on Flickr


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## Magio (Jul 26, 2020)

From what I have seen LEDs are quite capable of meeting or exceeding the 35-50watt HIDs in both output and runtime. The 70-85 HID do seem to still have a significant advantage on runtime as most LEDs flashlights that output the equivalent lumens have a massive step-down after a few minutes. The SBT90 lights seem to have closed this gap a bit but the HIDs still have the advantage. I only know of 2 HIDs that are 70 and 85 watts though. Those in this thread that have claimed that HID's have a significant advantages in all areas have provided exactly zero evidence to back up their claim and from all the research I have done I have not found any.


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## XeRay (Jul 26, 2020)

Alex Littig, on Flickr[/QUOTE] HID 4

I need you to open this up, see how the bulb is mounted and connected inside.


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## XeRay (Jul 26, 2020)

Magio said:


> Those in this thread that have claimed that HID's have a significant advantages in all areas have provided exactly zero evidence to back up their claim and from all the research I have done I have not found any.



I'm not aware that anyone here ever claimed or indicated tha LED has NO advantages compared to HID.


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## Magio (Jul 26, 2020)

XeRay said:


> I'm not aware that anyone here ever claimed or indicated tha LED has NO advantages compared to HID.



I should clarify and say performance advantages. Throw, runtime, lumens, and efficiency.


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## XeRay (Jul 26, 2020)

Magio said:


> I should clarify and say performance advantages. Throw, runtime, lumens, and efficiency.



What's the highest Lumens/watt for high powered LED ?
For 70 to 80+ watt HID it's over 100 lumens per watt, including ballast losses (about 90% for high quality efficient ballasts). In the 70 plus watt HID the throw is still superior due to a tighter hotspot, with a high quality electroformed reflector of a reasonable diameter (Not SuperPower sized). Run time for a remotely comparable LED will require a larger battery to have a longer runtime. In addition, current units will have pulled the power way back to prevent overheating.
Note: when LED's get hot, their efficiencies "go out the window". 
At manageable heat level and very high powered Cree LED's it's also about 100 lumens per watt, including the power control circuitry losses.


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## Alex1234 (Jul 26, 2020)

XeRay said:


> Alex Littig, on Flickr


 HID 4

I need you to open this up, see how the bulb is mounted and connected inside.[/QUOTE]



hid 5 by Alex Littig, on Flickr


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## Alex1234 (Jul 26, 2020)

Rasher said:


> Not bad for an HID that was probably 1/4 to 1/3 the cost of the modded K75.
> 
> I'm just hoping the 50Mcd project by you-know-who gets done... I presume you''re on the list.




50 MCd  I am not aware of such a project. but im very intrigued


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## XeRay (Jul 26, 2020)

How is it held into and mounted to the reflector ?


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## Alex1234 (Jul 26, 2020)

XeRay said:


> How is it held into and mounted to the reflector ?



The reflector housing just threads on. 



hid 6 by Alex Littig, on Flickr



hid 8 by Alex Littig, on Flickr


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## idleprocess (Jul 27, 2020)

Magio said:


> I should clarify and say performance advantages. Throw, runtime, lumens, and efficiency.



I'm kind of an _LED guy_, but the technology has its limits. In a reasonably compact battery-powered device, LED will struggle to match the throw and runtime of well-engineered HID, primarily for the reasons that XeRay has been mentioning: thermal management and the greater ease of collimating the pseudo-1D HID arc vs the larger 2D _surface_ of LED.


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## Magio (Jul 27, 2020)

idleprocess said:


> I'm kind of an _LED guy_, but the technology has its limits. In a reasonably compact battery-powered device, LED will struggle to match the throw and runtime of well-engineered HID, primarily for the reasons that XeRay has been mentioning: thermal management and the greater ease of collimating the pseudo-1D HID arc vs the larger 2D _surface_ of LED.



Here is a post from Patriot from a while back that stated his Polarion PH50 has between 500-525k lux. https://www.candlepowerforums.com/v...ead-(Part-2)&p=4186762&viewfull=1#post4186762 There are number of LED flashlights today with 3x that lux.

Here is a test of the PH40 in an integrating sphere. http://gixer.mbnet.fi/HID/PH40_LabsphereFS2.png It's OTF lumens is only 2905. There are a number of LED lights today that can nearly maintain those lumens for double the runtime. The Acebeam K75 can maintain 2500lumens for 2.25hrs. The Polarion can only run 40mins.


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## idleprocess (Jul 27, 2020)

Magio said:


> Here is a post from Patriot from a while back that stated his Polarion PH50 has between 500-525k lux. https://www.candlepowerforums.com/v...ead-(Part-2)&p=4186762&viewfull=1#post4186762 There are number of LED flashlights today with 3x that lux.



A quick search suggests that the PH50 has a 90mm head diameter so the reflector is apt to be in the vicinity of 75mm. I'm aware of some LED flashlights with similar claimed performance that generally have significantly larger reflectors.


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## XeRay (Jul 27, 2020)

Alex1234 said:


> The reflector housing just threads on



Do you know if there are 2 vs 3 wires feeding the igniter from the ballast ? The igniter is that smaller box between the ballast and the bulb.


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## Alex1234 (Jul 27, 2020)

XeRay said:


> Do you know if there are 2 vs 3 wires feeding the igniter from the ballast ? The igniter is that smaller box between the ballast and the bulb.



Here is a better photo



hid 9 by Alex Littig, on Flickr


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## DayofReckoning (Jul 27, 2020)

Magio said:


> Here is a post from Patriot from a while back that stated his Polarion PH50 has between 500-525k lux. https://www.candlepowerforums.com/v...ead-(Part-2)&p=4186762&viewfull=1#post4186762 There are number of LED flashlights today with 3x that lux.
> 
> Here is a test of the PH40 in an integrating sphere. http://gixer.mbnet.fi/HID/PH40_LabsphereFS2.png It's OTF lumens is only 2905. There are a number of LED lights today that can nearly maintain those lumens for double the runtime. The Acebeam K75 can maintain 2500lumens for 2.25hrs. The Polarion can only run 40mins.



Don't bother Magio, It's a complete waste of time, which is why I exited from the thread. 

It's almost as if (a.) No one has read the thread and the proof presented (b.) hypotheticals and calculations should be believed over real hard data, AND ACTUAL PHYSICAL LIGHTS that show the total opposite is true. We are in an HID section after all. :sigh:


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## Polarion-Sparetech2 (Jul 27, 2020)

For completeness: PH50 was replaced by PH50D several years ago. Polarion Li-Ion batteries have been upgraded from 4400 mAh to 5700 mAh and run time increased accordingly. 40-minute run time indicates a worn out battery.

HID and LED lights are different products intended for different applications. Polarion has released an LED searchlight (PL-E702) that is rated to 600 meters at 5700 K. This rating is based on the same standard used to qualify Polarion's own HID lights. 

The ANSI/PLATO FL1 specification calculates the throw based on square root of ("peak beam intensity"/.25 LUX). A higher peak beam automatically gives a longer throw. https://www.streamlight.com/docs/default-source/ansi-documents/ansi-pres.pdf. See page 11.

Military and law enforcement organizations are more conservative. They require usable light at 1 mile or 1 km, not theoretical light. As a result, HID manufacturers tend to be more conservative in their ratings and talk about real life conditions (albeit at different price points).

Illumination distance, in the end, is the ability to send photons into a given solid angle. It has been our experience that HID lights outperform LED lights beyond 600 meters. This could change in the future, perhaps with solid state cooling though we remain skeptical about the lateral dispersion which is inherent in 2D emitters.


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## DayofReckoning (Jul 27, 2020)

Perhaps there is an alternative reality here where the real performance numbers that exist that disprove the narrative being spun here are not visible to some. Maybe even a situation where the actual physical LED lights themselves, which defy all the conjecture and hypotheticals that are being flung around like poo here, are not actually visible to some :shakehead

Cognitive dissonance? Personal Financial interests in promoting a product from their company?

IDK, I digress, as I'm going against my own advice that I gave earlier indicating it's a complete waste of time here.


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## XeRay (Jul 27, 2020)

DayofReckoning said:


> It's almost as if (a.) No one has read the thread and the proof presented (b.) hypotheticals and calculations should be believed over real hard data, AND ACTUAL PHYSICAL LIGHTS that show the total opposite is true. We are in an HID section after all. :sigh:



Almost as if, but not quite true... "proof presented" not proof as in objective testing and reliable sources.
This conversation didn't fare much better over in the LED section either. Also wasn't nearly as much debate there as well, look for yourself. The last comment was maybe 3 weeks ago and it's now on the 2nd page. The conversation there wasn't nearly as "exciting" there as here.


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## DayofReckoning (Jul 27, 2020)

XeRay said:


> Almost as if, but not quite true... "proof presented" not proof as in objective testing and reliable sources.
> This conversation didn't fare much better over in the LED section either. Also wasn't nearly as much debate there as well, look for yourself. The last comment was maybe 3 weeks ago and it's now on the 2nd page. The conversation there wasn't nearly as "exciting" there as here.



I'm afraid this is getting old and stale, and I'm certain others reading this thread can see that. For the 3rd time, Will you please provide the candela and lux numbers for your LV-LX50 and LV-LX70? This is the 3rd time I have requested them.


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## XeRay (Jul 27, 2020)

DayofReckoning said:


> Perhaps there is an alternative reality here where the real performance numbers that exist that disprove the narrative being spun here are not visible to some. Maybe even a situation where the actual physical LED lights themselves, which defy all the conjecture and hypotheticals that are being flung around like poo here, are not actually visible to some :shakehead
> 
> Cognitive dissonance? Personal Financial interests in promoting a product from their company?
> 
> IDK, I digress, as I'm going against my own advice that I gave earlier indicating it's a complete waste of time here.



The way this is heading. Next you are going to promote the flat earth agenda.The Flat Earthers use the same sort of language as you in your last post.


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## DayofReckoning (Jul 27, 2020)

XeRay said:


> The way this is heading. Next you are going to promote the flat earth agenda.The Flat Earthers use the same sort of language as you in your last post.



Those candela and Lux numbers please.


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## XeRay (Jul 27, 2020)

DayofReckoning said:


> I'm afraid this is getting old and stale, and I'm certain others reading this thread can see that. For the 3rd time, Will you please provide the candela and lux numbers for your LV-LX50 and LV-LX70? This is the 3rd time I have requested them.



No I won't because you will be comparing them to unreliable sources with unverified (not lab) data. Okay a fool would agree to such a back alley request, now becoming a demand.


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## XeRay (Jul 27, 2020)

DayofReckoning said:


> Those candela and Lux numbers please.



Your demands will have to wait, for a day in the not so distant future, when a highly respected and neutral CPF member decides to take this on. There are a few of these people here, such as BVH and others.


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## Alex1234 (Jul 27, 2020)

cant we all just enjoy both technologies. Both are awesome. HID for its throw, superior single point source lumen output and the ability to run max output continuously, Bulbs are easily replaceable by the user

And LED for it instant on capabilities, superior versatility in flashlight size(led flashlights can be very small), cost, more user friendly for the average Joe. The ability to have a big range in output from moonlight to turbo and all points in between, and LED lifespan is longer then HID, but not replaceable by the average user.


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## DayofReckoning (Jul 27, 2020)

XeRay said:


> No I won't because you will be comparing them to unreliable sources with unverified (not lab) data. Okay a fool would agree to such a back alley request, now becoming a demand.



Case settled. I've positively proven my case here beyond a reasonable shadow of a doubt. The above response says it all. The results speak for themselves here. No further input is required. 

The *BLANKET STATEMENT* and myth in Handheld searchlights that "LED's simply cannot match HID" has effectively been debunked here. The amount of confidence in some's performance metrics of their product is about as strong as the confidence one gets when seeing a 4 figure product coming with a 1 year warranty.

EDIT: Notice about how now he's going to rely on members to provide his numbers, but yet when I did the same thing it was unreliable? Wow.

BTW, the candela of the LV-LX50 is around the 600,000 to 750,000 mark, at best, give or take.


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## XeRay (Jul 27, 2020)

Alex1234 said:


> Here is a better photo hid 9 by Alex Littig, on Flickr



You may have to peek inside that cable braided mesh to see if 3 wires from the Ballast to the igniter, or only 2. Or perhaps open the ballast if you can't peek inside the mesh.
For a more detailed discussion call us at XeVision.com phone number on the web.


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## Alex1234 (Jul 27, 2020)

XeRay said:


> You may have to peek inside that cable braided mesh to see if 3 wires from the Ballast to the igniter, or only 2. Or perhaps open the ballast if you can't peek inside the mesh.
> For a more detailed discussion call us at XeVision.com phone number on the web.



Ok i need a torx bit which i dont have. hopefully i can see inside the mesh


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## XeRay (Jul 27, 2020)

DayofReckoning said:


> Case settled. I've positively proven my case here beyond a reasonable shadow of a doubt. The above response says it all. The results speak for themselves here. No further input is required.
> 
> The *BLANKET STATEMENT* and myth in Handheld searchlights that "LED's simply cannot match HID" has effectively been debunked here. The amount of confidence in some's performance metrics of their product is about as strong as the confidence one gets when seeing a 4 figure product coming with a 1 year warranty.
> 
> ...




I'll say it again : Your demands will have to wait, for a day in the not so distant future, when a highly respected and neutral CPF member decides to take this on. There are a few of these people here, such as BVH and others.

More Flat Earth like arguments, I only quoted a well known LED forum and LED user CPF member that refuted your subjective numbers. His numbers are obviously equally as subjective and as "valid" as yours. Your HID test unit is about 9 or 10 years old and only 50 watts max., not with an electroformed reflector (big improvement), not a known aged bulb (Lumens maintenance), in fact its an unknown bulb. the LX50 has a relatively small reflector as well. We also have no idea of the condition of or which ballast it has installed. That unit did not come from XeVision. You failed to even try to make a fair performance comparison
The only thing you proved is your lack of any scientific methods or techniques to prove what you had already decided in advance, before coming to this forum thread. More Flat Earth like behavior.


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## XeRay (Jul 27, 2020)

DayofReckoning said:


> Case settled. I've positively proven my case here beyond a reasonable shadow of a doubt. The above response says it all. The results speak for themselves here. No further input is required.
> 
> The *BLANKET STATEMENT* and myth in Handheld searchlights that "LED's simply cannot match HID" has effectively been debunked here. The amount of confidence in some's performance metrics of their product is about as strong as the confidence one gets when seeing a 4 figure product coming with a 1 year warranty.
> 
> ...



It seems you like to say things in 3's so I will repeat again too.

I'll say it again : Your demands will have to wait, for a day in the not so distant future, when a highly respected and neutral CPF member decides to take this on. There are a few of these people here, such as BVH and others.


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## DayofReckoning (Jul 27, 2020)

XeRay said:


> More Flat Earth like arguments, I only quoted a well known LED forum and LED user CPF member that refuted your subjective numbers. His numbers are obviously equally as subjective and as "valid" as yours. Your HID test unit is about 10 years old and only 50 watts max., not with an electroformed reflector (big improvement), not a known aged bulb (Lumens maintenance), in fact its an unknown bulb. the LX50 has a relatively small reflector as well. We also have no idea of the condition of or which ballast it has installed. That unit did not come from XeVision. You failed to even try to make a fair performance comparison
> The only thing you proved is your lack of any scientific methods or techniques to prove what you had already decided in advance, before coming to this forum thread. More Flat Earth like behavior.



Quite possibly the greatest combination of assumptions, strawman argumentation, contradictions, deflection, and projection I have seen condensed into a single paragraph. At this point, we will just have to agree to disagree, Sir.


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## XeRay (Jul 27, 2020)

DayofReckoning said:


> Quite possibly the greatest combination of strawman argumentation, contradiction, deflection, and projection I have seen condensed into a single paragraph. At this point, we will just have to agree to disagree, Sir.




You are the "master" of such, rather a bit hypocritical I would say. Lets see if anyone jumps to the defense of your honor and or claims. Pretty much everyone has bowed out of this discussion realizing your mind was already made up. You should have stayed out, when you claimed you were exiting for good. Don't call me a condescending Sir, also I'm not your father.


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## DayofReckoning (Jul 27, 2020)

I feel confident anyone reading this conversation can draw their own conclusions. The "Sir", was not meant to be condescending, you took it the wrong way. 

Again, we will have to agree to disagree.


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## XeRay (Jul 27, 2020)

DayofReckoning said:


> I feel confident anyone reading this conversation can draw their own conclusions.



On that statement finally, I feel everyone can agree, and logically/rationally as well.


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## Alex1234 (Jul 28, 2020)

XeRay said:


> You may have to peek inside that cable braided mesh to see if 3 wires from the Ballast to the igniter, or only 2. Or perhaps open the ballast if you can't peek inside the mesh.
> For a more detailed discussion call us at XeVision.com phone number on the web.



There are two wires going from the ballast to the igniter.


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## XeRay (Jul 29, 2020)

Ok,
It would be best if you called us to discuss the detailed options. Phone number on our website
Dan


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## Alex1234 (Jul 29, 2020)

XeRay said:


> Ok,
> It would be best if you called us to discuss the detailed options. Phone number on our website
> Dan



will do


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## ampdude (Aug 3, 2020)

I'll never understand the LED fanboyism. They are good for what they are, but they don't cover everything.

I fired up my ancient Firefoxes FF3 next to my 3,300 lumen 4000K (neutral/warm) "Thrunite" on high mode and the FF3 made the Thrunite look like a complete joke. Like it wasn't even on.

Soon we'll have FF5's. Large LED lights are so stupid. They are much more practical in medium and small size.


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## Magio (Aug 3, 2020)

ampdude said:


> I'll never understand the LED fanboyism. They are good for what they are, but they don't cover everything.
> 
> I fired up my ancient Firefoxes FF3 next to my 3,300 lumen 4000K (neutral/warm) "Thrunite" on high mode and the FF3 made the Thrunite look like a complete joke. Like it wasn't even on.
> 
> Soon we'll have FF5's. Large LED lights are so stupid. They are much more practical in medium and small size.



Well I have the Firefoxes FF4 65watt version and the Thrunite TN40. On turbo the Ff4 is brighter than TN40 but after 2mins or so it steps down to 40watts. At 40 watts there is almost no noticeable difference in brightness between the 2.


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## PhotonMaster3 (Dec 9, 2020)

Magio said:


> Well I have the Firefoxes FF4 65watt version and the Thrunite TN40. On turbo the Ff4 is brighter than TN40 but after 2mins or so it steps down to 40watts. At 40 watts there is almost no noticeable difference in brightness between the 2.



I got an FF5 a few months ago. My first HID light. I have to join the HID fans here. It is truly awesome


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