# What are the reasons for carrying low-lumen lights?



## vph0107 (Sep 8, 2020)

Hey guys! Looking at this forum, I'm seeing a lot of people who EDC lights that max out at 200, even 100 lumens. What's the benefit of it? Please help me understand, I'm by no means a devoted user of hotrods and pocket torches that give a good 5 seconds of fame, but I can't realistically see how 200 lumens does much. I usually go for something around 500 or 600 lumens to increase my visibility. Even with high CRI, I'm not entirely sold on lower levels of output. What am I missing?


----------



## nbp (Sep 8, 2020)

Well, the dark isn’t any darker than it was a couple of years ago when 200 lms was the best we could get.  For many, it’s still plenty for our daily usages, especially if you live in a rural area without much light pollution. 

Also, A lot of us like older limited run and custom stuff that isn’t available now, and they often were lower output due to the tech at the time, and we like the lights too much to abandon them for a whiz bang new trophy wife.


----------



## richardparker (Sep 8, 2020)

Following. I have also been trying to crack this. I am also just a fan of nice flashlights and do not have near the understanding as many here. But I don’t understand mcgizmo sapphire being 5 lumens and that kind of thing. I also agree doesn’t have to be a rocket and appreciate good run time and think 500-600 lumens is a sweet spot For most tasks.


----------



## archimedes (Sep 8, 2020)

Everyone's needs are different. Although addressing a slight variation on this topic, my thread linked below contains quite a bit of useful discussion and thoughts on "optimal" output ...

https://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?415773-If-you-had-to-choose-only-a-single-output

Might be worth a look ? :shrug:

To specifically address OP's question, most of my flashlight use occurs at well under 100 lumens, and often less than 50 lm.


----------



## vph0107 (Sep 8, 2020)

nbp said:


> Well, the dark isn’t any darker than it was a couple of years ago when 200 lms was the best we could get.  For many, it’s still plenty for our daily usages, especially if you live in a rural area without much light pollution.
> 
> Also, A lot of us like older limited run and custom stuff that isn’t available now, and they often were lower output due to the tech at the time, and we like the lights too much to abandon them for a whiz bang new trophy wife.




I definitely understand that sentiment. It's like a faithful companion, right? Customs sure are addicting. Don't get me wrong, I love the McGizmo Haiku, and it certainly is useful in a pinch, but I can't see it as a heavy duty light. That is, of course, heavy in terms of illumination, because it certainly can withstand just about any sort of physical trauma.


----------



## richardparker (Sep 8, 2020)

Great thread, and please know I mean no disrespect to the amazing makers on this forum. But the OP wasn’t saying a single output level, he asked about the MAX level. Even if you mostly use your light at under 50, aren’t there times lighting a room or walking outside you would want option for higher max?


----------



## vph0107 (Sep 8, 2020)

archimedes said:


> Everyone's needs are different. Although addressing a slight variation on this topic, my thread linked below contains quite a bit of useful discussion and thoughts on "optimal" output ...
> 
> https://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?415773-If-you-had-to-choose-only-a-single-output
> 
> ...




Thanks for that link, it does help me see some different perspectives. I guess I could see the lower outputs being great in smaller indoor spaces, and just in general for their reliability and run times. Maybe it's just me, but I feel like I'm missing details when looking with a 50 to 100 lumen light. Of course, using the higher rated lights causes things to appear overwhelming and over tinted, but even so, I can feel like I'm seeing the whole picture if that makes sense? Do you feel like you're seeing plenty with the lower lumens, or is it more like you have an adequate view? I understand lux is also an important factor, and not just lumens.


----------



## archimedes (Sep 8, 2020)

richardparker said:


> Great thread, and please know I mean no disrespect to the amazing makers on this forum. But the OP wasn’t saying a single output level, he asked about the MAX level. Even if you mostly use your light at under 50, aren’t there times lighting a room or walking outside you would want option for higher max?



Yes I understand that, but if most of my EDC flashlight needs can be met with a single output of around 30 lumens, then lights with 500 - 1000 lumens are not especially necessary in most cases.

What does one give up or trade off, for those massively higher outputs ? Even if they are multi-mode, runtime and efficiency may be impacted. Quality of light may be lessened, as high-output emitters tend to be cooler in tint and lower in color rendering. Very high output lights often include more "modes" and complex user interfaces. They may cost more, or build quality may suffer, as heat becomes a bigger issue. They may be larger and heavier. They often require multiple cells to power, which can increase safety risks. They may be less flexible in choice of battery chemistry. Components may be more stressed by the output, reducing reliability and durability. I'm sure there are other potential issues, but those were simply the first few that came to mind.


----------



## bykfixer (Sep 8, 2020)

Before LED's the typical flashlight put out a lot less lumens yet that was good enough. 

I see it as having cars that can go 200mph while the speed limit is 70 or less. So for some 0-60 in 6 seconds is important. Some feel 0-60 eventually is good enough. So regarding lower output flashlights many times 100 or less lumens is plenty. Take a SureFire 6P for example. In it's day it was a very useful light for most needs. And like NBP said, dark hasn't gotten any darker. 

For me the about only time I need more than a couple hundred lumens is when I'm surrounded with light pollution and all of its crazy shadows. Recently my work had me on Main St USA and my 650 lumen light struggled to adequately light objects more than a couple dozen feet. Tonight, out in the country the low setting on my SureFire G2x Pro is plenty of light to walk around with. So I'm actually using a 1972 2C flashlight the most. But I prefer a throwey beam so that seems brighter than a pure flooder as well.


----------



## idleprocess (Sep 8, 2020)

vph0107 said:


> Hey guys! Looking at this forum, I'm seeing a lot of people who EDC lights that max out at 200, even 100 lumens. What's the benefit of it? Please help me understand, I'm by no means a devoted user of hotrods and pocket torches that give a good 5 seconds of fame, but I can't realistically see how 200 lumens does much. I usually go for something around 500 or 600 lumens to increase my visibility. Even with high CRI, I'm not entirely sold on lower levels of output. What am I missing?



I've had an obsolete and well-worn Fenix LD01 on my keychain for a decade or so. I believe it peaks at 85 lumens, which is a nice step up from its predecessor - whose designation I forget - that sported a Luxeon I LED that might have produced _an entire 30 lumens_. I've contemplated a replacement - and in the AAA formfactor one can likely get _*much*_ brighter with 10440s - but its output is sufficient for my keychain EDC needs.


----------



## ampdude (Sep 8, 2020)

I still carry a Surefire E2e most of the time. It's not the quantity of light, but the quality of light that I prefer. 60 lumens is the average output with 80-100 starting out on fresh batteries. It's usually plenty! A lot of times I use the MN02 lamp assembly which reduces the average output to 25 lumens and this is usually enough light as well.


----------



## chainsolid (Sep 9, 2020)

I carry E1L 40 Lumens for my work about IT Support , It good for label and some sticker


----------



## Katherine Alicia (Sep 9, 2020)

some of My uses (reasons) are reading a book, getting up in the night, looking inside other flashlights and things (you don`t want high lumens for that!), a night light, finding dropped things in the cinema, using lots of low lumen incan mules instead of candles for having a bath.

these are just a few of my low lumen uses, they may not seem much but actually constitute over 95% of my runtime, very rare I use High Lumens for anything, and I`v got them to use!


----------



## scout24 (Sep 9, 2020)

The benefits? Usually size and runtime, as mentioned. I find outdoors at night the temptation may be to use more light than I need, just because it's fun. To paraphrase Ron White, "I didn't know how many lumens I was going to need to see over there, but I knew how many I was going to use!" I certainly have lights for that, and enjoy them. Running out to the car to grab the phone charger I forgot? Low lumens will do. Making sure the chickens got locked in at night? Same. I, personally, also don't enjoy drawing too much attention if I can help it.


----------



## ma tumba (Sep 9, 2020)

I think the answer largely depends on 2 things: 1) how far you want to reach and 2) the amount of ambient light.

In a park where they run some sparse lights I need a few tens of lumens of flood light to watch my step and at least a thousand lumens of throw if I want to spot a hare or a squirrel. For now I am happy with an incand M6 with a 20W axial bulb (600lm perhaps) but I would be happier to have twice as much


----------



## Lynx_Arc (Sep 9, 2020)

If you get used to a certain amount of light having more than what you are used to costing more and requiring more often battery changes isn't necessarily more attractive. I love having a light that on turbo gets up around 1000 lumens but for working on things and dropping the light and getting it all dirty and scratched up having a very sturdy inexpensive light that does 100-200 lumens is perfectly fine. I just bought a cheap $8 2AA plastic light at HD the other day that is about 50 lumens because it was cheap and plastic and I don't have to worry about it getting damaged or the cheap alkaleaks destroying it and it is waterproof. I bought the light to sit around waiting to be used in my garage where I am rough on lights I wouldn't trust a nice powerful $30+ light with multiple modes to stand up to the abuse and get lost down in an engine compartment.


----------



## PoliceScannerMan (Sep 9, 2020)

Runtime runtime runtime, 30 lumen is plenty bright.


----------



## PaperKnife (Sep 9, 2020)

I wouldn’t say you’re missing anything per se.
For example: Walking outside and hear something creepy, imagination running wild? You’re right! I’d want a pocket sun so I can see what’s going on. 

Working on something small on a work bench? Bingo! I don’t need a light capable of signaling UFOs if I’m working on something 12inches from my eyes 👀 

In general (for me), a bright light is going to reflect off of a lot of surfaces, so I prefer to have lower lumens and illuminate the item, not roast it. More often than not, I just need to find something close by or observe something in the correct lighting. Lower lumen lights does that for me 👍🏽 

My $0.02


----------



## vph0107 (Sep 9, 2020)

PaperKnife said:


> I wouldn’t say you’re missing anything per se.
> For example: Walking outside and hear something creepy, imagination running wild? You’re right! I’d want a pocket sun so I can see what’s going on.
> 
> Working on something small on a work bench? Bingo! I don’t need a light capable of signaling UFOs if I’m working on something 12inches from my eyes 👀
> ...



I see. Yeah I guess it is true that if the light is too bright up close on an object it actually obscures your vision. I guess I don't find myself in the dark indoors too often, and most of the time I'm using a light it's outside. Maybe I've just become used to liking higher lumens because I'm using my lights in bigger spaces a lot of the time.


----------



## Hogokansatsukan (Sep 9, 2020)

I hike every morning into the Catalina mountains on a goat trail. It is rocky, twisty, surrounded by cacti, and rattlesnakes abound. When I use my light, it is set around 3 lumens. I prefer to use my night vision (as in the rods and rhodopsin in my noggin). If I use max (300 lumens) it is only for things 200+ yards away. I don't want my night vision destroyed and then HAVE TO use the flashlight for the rest of the hike. There is no light pollution where I hike and even a half moon with a clear sky is enough. I only use the 3 lumens if I want to check something out.

If I'm out in the Jeep at night exploring, night vision is gone from all the lights on the Jeep, so If I get out and want to see a few hundred yards off, I need more lumens because of the lack of rhodopsin in the eyes. So there is a dedicated light in the Jeep with more lumens and a tighter beam.

It is all what you use it for and what the ambient light around you is like.


----------



## idleprocess (Sep 9, 2020)

PaperKnife said:


> In general (for me), a bright light is going to reflect off of a lot of surfaces, so I prefer to have lower lumens and illuminate the item, not roast it. More often than not, I just need to find something close by or observe something in the correct lighting. Lower lumen lights does that for me 👍🏽



I think this gets into the varying definitions of _EDC_ or _carry_ lights. In my work backpack I've got more powerful lights that are nominally 800, 1600, and some 2300 lumens. But that backpack generally goes home to office and occasionally to the makerspace - it's certainly not _on my person_ at all times. For actual on-person carry I find I only need to be able to perform close tasks and navigate truly dark areas with enough throw to see perhaps 10 meters.

My reality is that I'm a suburb-sweller that does desk jockey work. The only sort of holster that's going to blend in would be for a cell phone, otherwise whatever I carry needs to fit neatly into my pants pockets - and without clashing with my other on-person items. Single-AA lights are too big for the keychain but _might_ slot into a pocket gracefully while 123A and larger are just too much.

I'll carry larger lights for specific tasks. i.e. I've got Emisar D4s and FW3As that are great for walking the dogs and offer _canned sunlight_ on demand, but they get clipped to the pocket for the duration of the task then otherwise live in a cabinet.

But that's just me and my circumstances.


----------



## ma tumba (Sep 9, 2020)

Hogokansatsukan said:


> I hike every morning into the Catalina mountains on a goat trail. It is rocky, twisty, surrounded by cacti, and rattlesnakes abound. When I use my light, it is set around 3 lumens. I prefer to use my night vision (as in the rods and rhodopsin in my noggin). If I use max (300 lumens) it is only for things 200+ yards away. I don't want my night vision destroyed and then HAVE TO use the flashlight for the rest of the hike. There is no light pollution where I hike and even a half moon with a clear sky is enough. I only use the 3 lumens if I want to check something out.
> 
> If I'm out in the Jeep at night exploring, night vision is gone from all the lights on the Jeep, so If I get out and want to see a few hundred yards off, I need more lumens because of the lack of rhodopsin in the eyes. So there is a dedicated light in the Jeep with more lumens and a tighter beam.
> 
> It is all what you use it for and what the ambient light around you is like.



Hogo, what color temperature do you prefer in that 3lm light?


----------



## Hogokansatsukan (Sep 9, 2020)

ma tumba said:


> Hogo, what color temperature do you prefer in that 3lm light?



It changes but currently around 5000k is what I have been using. I'll go down to 4000k and up to 5700k. I've come to the conclusion that it seems more dependent on my mood than anything else. Anything lower than 4000k is just too warm for me.


----------



## PaperKnife (Sep 9, 2020)

Some good points being covered. 
Personal preference is what it really boils down to. 
The main take away ladies and gentlemen, buy more lights, feed the demon


----------



## flatline (Sep 10, 2020)

As a rule, I want enough light to clearly see what I want to see, but not so much light that I have to wait for my eyes to adjust.

If I'm looking at something at arm's length, even during the day, 3L is typically plenty. Looking across the room, I step up to 30L. Very rarely do I go higher than that with my EDC. I will usually reach for another light if I need more.

--flatline


----------



## ma tumba (Sep 10, 2020)

I think that for complete darkness in the wild the best light for me is the original incand A2 with custom 5mm ring. I have a multimode calipso ring currently set to provide either a sublumen high cri 3000k beam or ~20lm 5600K beam. and the main bulb delivers a very tight ~100lm beam which is good well beyond 10m.

But again, if there is an ambient light the A2 is not good


----------



## xxo (Sep 10, 2020)

I would turn the question around and ask why do you need 500 or 600 lumens for EDC? I carry 37 lumen a LED solitaire on my keys for EDC and I don't feel the need for more lumens for reading something or looking at something up close, finding something that fell under the desk or in the back of a closet, for lighting up a key hole or walking down a dark path or set of steps. There are times where I would want a bit more throw, but throw is NOT lumens. I prefer to use as few lumens as possible to get the beam pattern and beam distance that I want, in a EDC flashlight more lumens represents more glare (try reading something with a 500 lumen flashlight), loss of natural night vision, shorter battery life, more heat generated and more unwanted attention.


----------



## peter yetman (Sep 10, 2020)

It's interesting looking at the post counts of the various responders and corelating them with their answers.
Achimedes' Graph is still relevant!

Oh, and as for me, I use a 170Lm HDS most of the time and rarely feel the need of anything else. I went searching for a lost dog in the woods a while back and the HDS never felt underpowered.
Of course it does make a difference when the stated lumens are accurate and not exagerrated by the manufacturer.
P


----------



## Katherine Alicia (Sep 10, 2020)

xxo said:


> finding something that fell under the desk



^^^ THAT^^^ exactly that! I knew I forgot to add something :-D


----------



## carrot (Sep 10, 2020)

Sometimes, you just need enough to see. Not to stand out. For use, I value lower lumens more for runtime and discretion. 

For fun, higher lumens to make daylight will certainly put a smile on your face.

It's worth noting that many lights that advertise high lumens cannot hang onto them. I often carry a 4000 lumen pocket rocket not because it is so bright (that's for fun) but because it can get so dim. But at 4000 lumens, it'll only do that for a few seconds before it throttles down to a more reasonable 300-400. 

I think I use under 1 lumens the most. Next, under 30 lumens. 

My bike light is the one place where I want the most lumens for the longest amount of time.


----------



## KITROBASKIN (Sep 10, 2020)

Hogokansatsukan said:


> I hike every morning into the Catalina mountains on a goat trail. It is rocky, twisty, surrounded by cacti, and rattlesnakes abound. When I use my light, it is set around 3 lumens. I prefer to use my night vision (as in the rods and rhodopsin in my noggin). If I use max (300 lumens) it is only for things 200+ yards away. I don't want my night vision destroyed and then HAVE TO use the flashlight for the rest of the hike. There is no light pollution where I hike and even a half moon with a clear sky is enough. I only use the 3 lumens if I want to check something out.
> 
> If I'm out in the Jeep at night exploring, night vision is gone from all the lights on the Jeep, so If I get out and want to see a few hundred yards off, I need more lumens because of the lack of rhodopsin in the eyes. So there is a dedicated light in the Jeep with more lumens and a tighter beam.
> 
> It is all what you use it for and what the ambient light around you is like.



This information is good for folks new to CPF. One thing a lot of people do is use too many lumens, then their eyes step down because it is so bright. Then they struggle to see at distance because their pupils are constricted, so they add more lumens to see farther (if possible). Unfortunately, like my 10 year old son, after looking afar they make the mistake of shining the flashlight onto the ground in front of them, further destroying their night vision. 

That whole Rhodopsin thing Hogo wrote about deserves further study for newcomers.


----------



## ma tumba (Sep 10, 2020)

one thing you need more lumens is when you need to see colors across a large area. for example, if I dropped a brown wallet in a park with a lot of yellow/brown leaves on the ground, having 10000lm flood light would help a lot as I would be able to see the entire area and my daylight color vision would help a lot.


----------



## vph0107 (Sep 10, 2020)

xxo said:


> I would turn the question around and ask why do you need 500 or 600 lumens for EDC? I carry 37 lumen a LED solitaire on my keys for EDC and I don't feel the need for more lumens for reading something or looking at something up close, finding something that fell under the desk or in the back of a closet, for lighting up a key hole or walking down a dark path or set of steps. There are times where I would want a bit more throw, but throw is NOT lumens. I prefer to use as few lumens as possible to get the beam pattern and beam distance that I want, in a EDC flashlight more lumens represents more glare (try reading something with a 500 lumen flashlight), loss of natural night vision, shorter battery life, more heat generated and more unwanted attention.



I gotta be entirely honest, it puts less strain on my eyes to read on 500 lumens than it does with 50. Perhaps I need to try and get used to lower lumens. I do agree with the reasoning regarding beam pattern, battery life, and heat generation though. The unwanted attention hasn't really been a problem for me at least.


----------



## vph0107 (Sep 10, 2020)

carrot said:


> Sometimes, you just need enough to see. Not to stand out. For use, I value lower lumens more for runtime and discretion.
> 
> For fun, higher lumens to make daylight will certainly put a smile on your face.
> 
> ...



Yeah I've got an Emisar D4, at first because I was younger and loved the idea of a pocket rocket, but now I have it because of how intuitive its UI is, where I just hold down the button to get my desired brightness. Maybe I haven't experienced true under 1 lumen brightness yet, but it feels to me like it might be a waste, and you may as well just rely on your night vision? Please let me know the error of my ways, because I know tons of people swear by the super low moonlight modes.


----------



## Katherine Alicia (Sep 10, 2020)

vph0107 said:


> it puts less strain on my eyes to read on 500 lumens than it does with 50.



500lm for reading!? ceiling bounce maybe but not direct on the book surely? 20-30lm at 2700k is just nice for me, any brighter or hotter and it just becomes less cozy, 500 would likely give me a headache esp above 4000k.


----------



## vph0107 (Sep 10, 2020)

carrot said:


> Sometimes, you just need enough to see. Not to stand out. For use, I value lower lumens more for runtime and discretion.
> 
> For fun, higher lumens to make daylight will certainly put a smile on your face.
> 
> ...





Katherine Alicia said:


> 500lm for reading!? ceiling bounce maybe but not direct on the book surely? 20-30lm at 2700k is just nice for me, any brighter or hotter and it just becomes less cozy, 500 would likely give me a headache esp above 4000k.



Not directly on the book. Sometimes ceiling bounce, sometimes shining past the book. 2700k is pretty warm for me. Thing is if I go directly on the book I'm still sitting at around 250 to 300. Sounds like I need to give lower lumens a longer try.


----------



## bigburly912 (Sep 10, 2020)

I can’t even see what’s on a page with 500 lumens. Literally just tried it out haha. It completely white washed it


----------



## Hogokansatsukan (Sep 10, 2020)

vph0107 said:


> I gotta be entirely honest, it puts less strain on my eyes to read on 500 lumens than it does with 50. Perhaps I need to try and get used to lower lumens. I do agree with the reasoning regarding beam pattern, battery life, and heat generation though. The unwanted attention hasn't really been a problem for me at least.



I'm thinking the light you are using may be greatly exaggerating the lumen output... or you may wish to see an optometrist! LOL!
Out of curiosity, what flashlight are you using?


----------



## vph0107 (Sep 10, 2020)

carrot said:


> Sometimes, you just need enough to see. Not to stand out. For use, I value lower lumens more for runtime and discretion.
> 
> For fun, higher lumens to make daylight will certainly put a smile on your face.
> 
> ...





Hogokansatsukan said:


> I'm thinking the light you are using may be greatly exaggerating the lumen output... or you may wish to see an optometrist! LOL!
> Out of curiosity, what flashlight are you using?



The last time I did this I used the Olight S1 Mini. Yeah I really do need to see the eye doctor soon, my prescription probably needs to be renewed too haha. Well, I'm gonna give the Haiku a good amount of time in my pocket and see if I can't sway myself to a lower lumen user.


----------



## archimedes (Sep 10, 2020)

vph0107 said:


> .... Maybe I haven't experienced true under 1 lumen brightness yet, but it feels to me like it might be a waste, and you may as well just rely on your night vision? Please let me know the error of my ways, because I know tons of people swear by the super low moonlight modes.



If you are using truly dark-adapted night vision, one lumen can seem incredibly bright (really)

You may want to search CPF for "sublumen" threads, as moonlight and even firefly modes used to be pretty popular around here.

A significant part of the reason HDS and ZL have been so popular are their sublumen modes. Some even use outputs less than one-tenth of a lumen fairly regularly.

I'm guesstimating that about _half_ of the total HDS Rotary settings are about a lumen or less.


----------



## vph0107 (Sep 10, 2020)

carrot said:


> Sometimes, you just need enough to see. Not to stand out. For use, I value lower lumens more for runtime and discretion.
> 
> For fun, higher lumens to make daylight will certainly put a smile on your face.
> 
> ...





archimedes said:


> If you are using truly dark-adapted night vision, one lumen can seem incredibly bright (really)
> 
> You may want to search CPF for "sublumen" threads, as moonlight and even firefly modes used to be pretty popular around here.
> 
> ...



Thanks for the heads up! I'll give it a look when I have some extra time this weekend. I'm currently being enticed by the thread on custom Haiku builds by Tana.


----------



## LeanBurn (Sep 11, 2020)

All of my lights (except 1) are 200L or below...for all the reasons already specified.


----------



## greenpondmike (Sep 13, 2020)

.....


----------



## chillinn (Sep 13, 2020)

I don't want to be annoying, but night vision is a contraption that lets you see in the dark in either UV or IR. What you all are really referring to is _dark adapted_ vision, and that is my reason for keeping light levels between 0.01Lm and about 18Lm on the top end. Once you lose dark adapted vision, it might take a week to get it back. And if you're always using 600Lm, you never had it. 

What CPF has taught me is that brightness doesn't necessarily let you see more. I'll take the Pepsi challenge, and I am sure other low lumeners will join me, seeing more with low lumens and dark adapted vision than no dark adapted vision and 5000Lm. What are we looking at? Something in front of us? Something at the end of the driveway? Something across the field? As others have said, it is application that matters, and what can be seen, not brightness. 

But I do support the lumen junkies! I get wowed by bright too, and it is a rush, but low lumens serve my purposes more ideally. High lumens are absolutely necessary during the day, or lighting up wide or far areas at night. What concerns me is right in front of me, 1ft.-8ft. generally, and rarely as far as 30ft-50ft, which you'd be surprised how much there can be seen with carefully kept dark adapted vision and only 18Lm... or no artificial light whatsoever.


----------



## 5S8Zh5 (Sep 13, 2020)

During my daily before sunrise walk at the park, high lumen lights are annoying and unnecessary. Malkoff's LLLL is the ticket.


----------



## chillinn (Sep 13, 2020)

5S8Zh5 said:


> During my daily before sunrise walk at the park, high lumen lights are annoying and unnecessary. Malkoff's LLLL is the ticket.



I have tried to understand what the Malkoff LLLL is, read that group buy thread... and I failed to understand. It's a drop in, right? What are the modes & lumen levels for the LLLL?


----------



## Poppy (Sep 13, 2020)

vph0107 said:


> Yeah I've got an Emisar D4, at first because I was younger and loved the idea of a pocket rocket, but now I have it because of how intuitive its UI is, where I just hold down the button to get my desired brightness. Maybe I haven't experienced true under 1 lumen brightness yet, but it feels to me like it might be a waste, and you may as well just rely on your night vision? Please let me know the error of my ways, because I know tons of people swear by the super low moonlight modes.


Covid-19 and bored eh?

You know the difference between lumens and lux, own a D4 and Haiku, don't want a pocket rocket and have questions about a general desire for less than 600 lumen lights?

Please explain.


----------



## 5S8Zh5 (Sep 13, 2020)

chillinn said:


> I have tried to understand what the Malkoff LLLL is, read that group buy thread... and I failed to understand. It's a drop in, right? What are the modes & lumen levels for the LLLL?


It is a drop in with one mode. _Average around 15 lumens so far_.


----------



## archimedes (Sep 13, 2020)

chillinn said:


> I don't want to be annoying, but night vision is a contraption that lets you see in the dark in either UV or IR. What you all are really referring to is _dark adapted_ vision....



Yes, (artificial) "night vision" is generally accomplished via ...

• image intensification, with or without
• active (IR) illumination, or
• thermal imaging.

But the term is often also loosely used to refer to dark adapted vision, as you rightly note.


----------



## bykfixer (Sep 14, 2020)

chillinn said:


> I have tried to understand what the Malkoff LLLL is, read that group buy thread... and I failed to understand. It's a drop in, right? What are the modes & lumen levels for the LLLL?



It's a one level Malkoff drop in called 4L's and puts out around 24 lumens. Hours and hours of runtime while providing the output of about the same as a 3D Maglite did back in the day. The first group buy had two choices of tint. One a little cooler than a M61N (which iirc is 4400 kelvin) at 5000 kelvin using an XPG and the other a 4000 kelvin using an SST LED. 
The second group buy was a 4000 kelvin using the SST. 

Oh, I think there was an even warmer 4L group buy before those. But I may be wrong there.

Basically it's a lot of light when you don't need a bunch of lumens and the SST makes it throw like an old E1 used to.


----------



## chillinn (Sep 14, 2020)

thanks guys, I really felt too bashful to ask in the group buy thread, as there is an explanation there, which I found wanting. "LLLL" gave me the impression it was modded and the modes were like 0.01Lm, 0.30Lm, 0.60Lm and 1Lm. I don't mind being stupid. It is being perceived as stupid that scares me.


----------



## peter yetman (Sep 14, 2020)

Ah, but when they think you're a fool and you're not, then you have the upper hamd. Been doing it all my life.
P


----------



## Chauncey Gardiner (Sep 14, 2020)

peter yetman said:


> Ah, but when they think you're a fool and you're not, then you have the upper hamd. Been doing it all my life.
> P



Hand or ham?


----------



## peter yetman (Sep 14, 2020)

I'd never want to have the upper ham, that way madness lies.
P


----------



## chillinn (Sep 14, 2020)

LOL!!


----------



## Chauncey Gardiner (Sep 14, 2020)

peter yetman said:


> I'd never want to have the upper ham, that way madness lies.
> P



OK, then. Thought it might have been an English saying.  ...... Or at least, something a restauranteur might say.


----------



## orbital (Sep 14, 2020)

+

*Rotary lights solves the dilemma *


----------



## vph0107 (Sep 14, 2020)

Poppy said:


> Covid-19 and bored eh?
> 
> You know the difference between lumens and lux, own a D4 and Haiku, don't want a pocket rocket and have questions about a general desire for less than 600 lumen lights?
> 
> Please explain.



No sir, anything but bored. In fact super busy. Gonna be honest, the haiku was an impulse buy and it was second hand. Additionally, that light has an impeccably constructed body, which is a major plus for me. I'm not particularly hard on my gear, at least I try not to be, but the material and built quality give me comfort. The D4 was from when I really was about pocket rockets, but I'm not really about that anymore. I guess after reading the numerous replies to this thread it seems like I've just never given myself the time to fully embrace low light levels.


----------



## richardparker (Sep 14, 2020)

xxo said:


> I would turn the question around and ask why do you need 500 or 600 lumens for EDC? I carry 37 lumen a LED solitaire on my keys for EDC and I don't feel the need for more lumens for reading something or looking at something up close, finding something that fell under the desk or in the back of a closet, for lighting up a key hole or walking down a dark path or set of steps. There are times where I would want a bit more throw, but throw is NOT lumens. I prefer to use as few lumens as possible to get the beam pattern and beam distance that I want, in a EDC flashlight more lumens represents more glare (try reading something with a 500 lumen flashlight), loss of natural night vision, shorter battery life, more heat generated and more unwanted attention.



Fair question. I would say I want the option for more light because my need for a flashlight isnt predictable. If Im walking my dog and hear a noise or when there's animals in the trees in the yard I want to spot, that sort of thing. But all these respeonses do make me consider that one light isnt going to do everything well, and agree that most needs for edc lights will use light at a closer range.


----------



## KITROBASKIN (Sep 14, 2020)

vph0107 said:


> ...fully embrace low light levels.


Consider relaxing in the (total) dark for 45 minutes or so, then ever so gently use the magic of low light to quietly awaken your eyes. Possibly start on your lowest setting with it shining on the ground behind your back. A soft touch and a thoughtful mind will let you see like never before. This time of year is excellent for this.


----------



## vph0107 (Sep 15, 2020)

KITROBASKIN said:


> Consider relaxing in the (total) dark for 45 minutes or so, then ever so gently use the magic of low light to quietly awaken your eyes. Possibly start on your lowest setting with it shining on the ground behind your back. A soft touch and a thoughtful mind will let you see like never before. This time of year is excellent for this.



The way you're describing it makes it seem almost meditative, now I've definitely gotta give it a try.


----------



## chillinn (Sep 15, 2020)

Imagine waking in the dark 2 hours before dawn, as I just have serendipitously. Do you really just turn on your brightest installed indoor lighting or grab a flashlight and blast 600+ lumens? I know how common it is that many just don't think about light levels, go from sleepy eyes used to total dark to complete brightness, but even they will squint in pain for 10 minutes as their eyes adjust. I try to remind others that bright lights in the evening affect circadian rhythms, and the reason they're not falling asleep is that they pay no attention to light levels or what kind of light they allow to strike their eyes, such as the blue light of their LED panel TV or tablet, but even a bright nightstand lamp will mess up sleep rhythms. 

My sleep cycle is off a little (though I sleep fine) because I fell asleep too early because I was too tired in the evening because I woke too early yesterday. It is a vicious cycle. LOL But I love the dawn, and I prefer to use low light levels, and slowly increasing them, until sunrise finally takes my dark adapted vision and completely wakes up my eyes. I'll generally put on the sunglasses at sunrise.

But enough about me. I want to hear about what light levels lumen junkies grab when they woke up in the dark.


----------



## Katherine Alicia (Sep 15, 2020)

interesting! I thought i`d try my SP40 at 5 Lumen (it`s a lovely 3000k light), and it was too bright for the middle of the night just-woke-up eyes, I was really surprised that 5 lumen was too much. So I`ll be sticking with my Manker E02II instead, I don`t know what lumen level I use, but it`s way less than 5! LOL


----------



## chillinn (Sep 15, 2020)

Yes, 5Lm of even warm white is too bright. 3V of 3Lm incan on an underpowered Tad Customs lamp expecting 4.2V is just about my limit in that scenario, or maybe as high as an underpowered MN02 on 4.2V a few minutes later. Sometimes, when my eyes are particularly sensitive, I grab my Vinh mod with a 630nm Cree XP-E R2, which is in a ThruNite TiS, so I get 0.04Lm firefly in red (probably less than 0.04Lm), and my tired eyes can even handle the medium mode at 12Lm (who knows what it actually is, but it was 12Lm when in white). Bright red does bother some people's eyes, but I find I can tolerate a lot of it, though I will squint at the 120Lm high mode ceiling bounced.

What I find amazing about well dark adapted eyes is how even the 0.08Lm firefly on this SC5c II ceiling bounced lights up the whole room! Though I have an SC62c with 0.01Lm, it is not near me when I wake up, but up on the shelf. I expect I will sometimes carry the soon to arrive SC53c, and it will be near me upon waking at times, so I'm anxious to see what 0.01Lm is like when my eyes are fully dark adapted.


----------



## sween1911 (Sep 15, 2020)

My EDC is and always will be a gen6 Surefire L1. The UI is perfect. I adjust the tailcap so it will just hit high if I mash the button all the way down. It's bright enough for tactical usage, and the low is perfect for everything else. It's got that greenish older Surefire led tint and a slightly ringy beam from the optic, BUT it is more than the sum of it's parts, it's not just the specs on paper. It is bombproof and I have complete faith in it, which is worth a lot.


----------



## Toulouse42 (Sep 15, 2020)

My night time carry inside the house is a Thrunite Archer 1A. The low of 0.1 lumens is great for bathroom trips and it means that I don't wake my wife when I go to bed. In fact 0.1 lumens is a little much for my night adapted vision. If needed it will go up to 200 lumens which is fine for most circumstances.


----------



## RogerToo (Sep 15, 2020)

First time post, however I have been reading this forum for a couple of years.

I agree with most all of the responses above however i didnt see anyone mention access to batteries. I do quality control at a steel foundry and use my edc most ofthe day. As others have said at close range more than 100 is too bright, also something small like my e12 can be carried in a front pocket comfortably all day. However one of the biggest advantages is batteries, the company keeps a supply of standard batteries on had, so if mine dies I can grab another one. I do keep a higher output light in the truck just incase the e12 fails, or for the handful of times I forgot to grab it in the morning.


----------



## idleprocess (Sep 16, 2020)

RogerToo said:


> First time post, however I have been reading this forum for a couple of years.



Welcome to the forum!



RogerToo said:


> I agree with most all of the responses above however i didnt see anyone mention access to batteries. I do quality control at a steel foundry and use my edc most ofthe day. As others have said at close range more than 100 is too bright, also something small like my e12 can be carried in a front pocket comfortably all day. However one of the biggest advantages is batteries, the company keeps a supply of standard batteries on had, so if mine dies I can grab another one. I do keep a higher output light in the truck just incase the e12 fails, or for the handful of times I forgot to grab it in the morning.



This was perhaps more relevant in decades past than it is today with Low Self-Discharge NiMH _(i.e. eneloops)_ displacing alkaline cells and Li-Ions displacing 3V lithium primary cells. In your situation I can understand the company not wanting to deal with the logistics of rechargeable cells in what can be a dirty environment for a small operational savings, but for the average person the cost savings are fairly prompt with but a handful of uses and eliminates the risk of alkaline cells leaking and damaging a light.


----------



## Lynx_Arc (Sep 16, 2020)

I agree with ip. If your company is giving you free alkaleaks then they really aren't totally free as they aren't free of RISK. If they are however giving away free lithium primaries that is another thing either CR123s or Energizer lithium batteries may be an incentive to invest in a light capable of being powered by them. If the company allows most lights to be used (no restrictions based upon chemicals etc safety) then a person can use rechargeables especially lithium ion based lights. At low to moderate levels a lithium ion based light can last all day on a single charge and at lower levels an 18650 light can possibly last all week even negating the need to swap batteries daily. Lights that take alkaleaks either require multiple batteries or have limited output and runtime that could force you to change batteries daily and IMO would be a hassle at them. Unless you invest in a throwaway light alkaleakage is a huge problem as it can pop up without notice perhaps even over the weekend a battery could suddenly leak on you unawares and cause grief and a loss of time and use of a light till it is addressed.


----------



## idleprocess (Sep 16, 2020)

Lynx_Arc said:


> If your company is giving you free alkaleaks then they really aren't totally free as they aren't free of RISK.



If they're cycling through cells on a ~daily to ~weekly basis, I suspect alkaline cells will be fine given the brief periods of time they're going to spend in the flashlight. It's periods of extended storage that causes the leakage in my experience.


----------



## chillinn (Sep 16, 2020)

Ironically, me, lover of low lumens, thinks RogerToo welcome needs a brighter light if he is using his flashlight during the day, even if indoors or in some gargantuan dimly-lit foundry. The brightest light I know of that uses standard AA primary cells is the Zebralight SC5w II (550Lm :rock, and of course it has 12 brightness mode levels (going all the way down to 0.09Lm). In addition of the half-programmable G5 mode group, it includes two easily accessible fully programmable mode groups, G6 & G7, for near ideal customization. 

Having just test driven the ZL SC53c all night long... this is a low lumen junky's dream (including 3.5 Lm/1.0 Lm/0.26 Lm/0.06 Lm/0.01 Lm). Please do not comment (again and again) about the lack of 14500 support, we know, we know, you are dissatisfied and don't want it. But for low lumens and standard AA primary or secondary cells, just... wow.


----------



## idleprocess (Sep 16, 2020)

chillinn said:


> Please do not comment (again and again) about the lack of 14500 support, we know, we know, you are dissatisfied and don't want it. But for low lumens and standard AA primary or secondary cells, just... wow.



Doesn't look to be driven hard enough to justify 14500 support for any reason other than diversity of _fuels_.


----------



## RogerToo (Sep 16, 2020)

The company will only provide very cheap lights and very cheap batteries, so for the dirty work place as well as the possibility of someone "borrowing" my personal light, I'd rather lose a 30.00 light over a 100.00 light. Also the parts that I inspect are steel and very often machined so glare is a major factor. That said I have found that 90% of the time 100 lumens or less is plenty of light. Even around my house 1.5 acres. As said I do keep a PD36R in the truck and a PD35 on the night stand for times that I do need more, but do not consider that EDC as its in the truck and not my pocket daily.


----------



## chillinn (Sep 16, 2020)

idleprocess said:


> Doesn't look to be driven hard enough to justify 14500 support for any reason other than diversity of _fuels_.



I have come to the personal conclusion, especially because ZL modes are current regulated, that it is a thin excuse for diversity of cells, and the real reason for the whine is 14500 are just cool as hell, which makes lack of 14500 support a valid complaint, I think. But SC53c is for 285Lm and below. 14500 support could conceivably make an extra turbo mode 600+ lumens, but plenty of other 14500 light options are available, and I don't know any model that does what SC53c does well. I read in the SC53c/w thread, Zebralight's constraint was memory, that the programmable modes take up memory, and something had to give.


----------



## Swedpat (Sep 16, 2020)

Interesting topic. And it's interesting that while the development because of the lumen race constantly goes towards even brighter lights, at the same time ultralow brightness levels are considered as valuable. Yes, ultralow is also a very relative expression when a multi thousand lumen light can have an "ultralow" of 600lm or so...
But if we talk about firefly level of a fraction of a lumen that is very useful for some tasks. Here the LED technology has one true advantage compared to incandescents. With the same emitter a range of several thousands times between the lowest and highest level is possible with the same light. Want to read a paper when you sit in the cinema without disturbing the other persons sitting there? No problem. Want to shine up an entire meadow? No problem.
Also worth to point out that 100lm is the same today as it was earlier. 15 years ago it was considered as very bright in a compact flashlight and very useful. And it's as useful today as it was 15 years ago. 
It's just our reference which changes. I admit that when I have been used to having 500-1000lm when walking at night in the forest I perceive 100lm as dim. If I hear something among the trees it's more scaring with lower brightness...


----------



## raggie33 (Sep 16, 2020)

stealth


----------



## Lynx_Arc (Sep 16, 2020)

idleprocess said:


> If they're cycling through cells on a ~daily to ~weekly basis, I suspect alkaline cells will be fine given the brief periods of time they're going to spend in the flashlight. It's periods of extended storage that causes the leakage in my experience.


I've experienced every kind of leakage including usage leakage. Running alkaleaks hard in something then days later they spew their guts from the stress. I just would not trust them in anything but throwaway or easily accessible contacts in a device.


----------



## Swedpat (Sep 17, 2020)

idleprocess said:


> If they're cycling through cells on a ~daily to ~weekly basis, I suspect alkaline cells will be fine given the brief periods of time they're going to spend in the flashlight. It's periods of extended storage that causes the leakage in my experience.



That's my view in the topic as well. I have never experienced fresh alkalines leaking during a short time use of a light. It's also easy to regularly inspect the batteries. The possibility to use even alkalines is a main part of the reason I use AA lights. The batteries are available in every small drugstore.


----------



## wayben (Sep 17, 2020)

Swedpat said:


> That's my view in the topic as well. I have never experienced fresh alkalines leaking during a short time use of a light. It's also easy to regularly inspect the batteries. The possibility to use even alkalines is a main part of the reason I use AA lights. The batteries are available in every small drugstore.



I've never experienced leakage of fresh cells either, always been things I've left sitting around for extended periods and forgot about. I do use eneloops in my good flashlights, just to avoid the problem altogether. Still use alkalines in cheap flashlights and appreciate that I can use them in the good ones in an emergency.

Wayne


----------



## KITROBASKIN (Sep 17, 2020)

Swedpat said:


> Interesting topic...It's just our reference which changes. I admit that when I have been used to having 500-1000lm when walking at night in the forest I perceive 100lm as dim. If I hear something among the trees it's more scaring with lower brightness...



Point well taken. I would submit that dense forest exploring at night is not necessarily best served with just one flashlight. Sure it's nice to have a wide field of view for most applications, but when a noise happens beyond the trees near you, a narrow beam flashlight (thrower) will not reflect back light off of nearby trees, and you will be able to see beyond those nearby trees (high lumens or low).


----------



## bykfixer (Sep 17, 2020)

Lately I get home from work in the middle of the night so I carry a yuji'd sofirm number to walk around the place when I get home. The half dozen or so lumens is plenty to see by (via tooth hold) at that time of night while I unpack and put stuff away.


----------



## bykfixer (Sep 17, 2020)

KITROBASKIN said:


> Point well taken. I would submit that dense forest exploring at night is not necessarily best served with just one flashlight. Sure it's nice to have a wide field of view for most applications, but when a noise happens beyond the trees near you, a narrow beam flashlight (thrower) will not reflect back light off of nearby trees, and you will be able to see beyond those nearby trees (high lumens or low).



I like older LED lights in those cases. My 90 something lumen Pentagon L2 or the 100 or so lumen Streamlight TL 2 LED send out a real nice pencil beam while providing enough spill to keep from tripping over tree roots etc. Especially in high humidity where all the spill of a modern light illuminates the millions of water droplets right in front of me. And an old 2 cell incan Maglite is also great at those times. 
Just hold it waste high and it drills a nice bright hole through the air borne condensation without placing a wall of light in your face.


----------



## GarageBoy (Sep 18, 2020)

I use every last one of my 3-400 lumens - definitely helpful when looking inside dark spaces in broad daylight

Also useful when you show up to a place that has no power and you have to be there for a bit


----------



## Monocrom (Sep 18, 2020)

Low lumen lights for me:

1- Preserve my night vision.

2- Might have to loan a light to a non-enthusiast. Don't want them blinding themselves when they invariably look down the emitter as they switch the light on.


----------



## vph0107 (Sep 19, 2020)

Monocrom said:


> Low lumen lights for me:
> 
> 1- Preserve my night vision.
> 
> 2- Might have to loan a light to a non-enthusiast. Don't want them blinding themselves when they invariably look down the emitter as they switch the light on.



You know I've never even thought of your second reason. That's a great idea, but I'm also paranoid of someone else touching my precious... Haha, I'm gonna start carrying a cheapie low lumen on me now.


----------



## Hooked on Fenix (Sep 21, 2020)

Dim lights are good for long runtimes. They are useful for late night bathroom breaks without drawing attention (especially outdoors). They are good during natural disasters to avoid detection of looters. During a blackout, the first person seen with a bright light is the first one robbed. Dim lights let you keep the light to yourself on walks. Bright lights draw in a bunch of people to walk annoyingly close in front of you, blocking out light useful to you. Dim lights let you preserve night vision for stargazing, hunting, etc. Low lumen lights tend to be cheap (not multilevel) and lightweight so you can keep some on you as loaners to keep people from taking or losing your good lights. Dim lights are good for kids who like shining lights in people's faces.


----------



## chillinn (Sep 21, 2020)

I just woke at 3:30AM, bleary-eyed, and reprogrammed the 6 levels of my SC53c G6 mode group to 0.01Lm, 0.06Lm, 0.26Lm, 1.0Lm, 3.5Lm & 10.3Lm, H1/H2, L1/L2, M1/M2, respectively, after deciding there was good purpose to this. Mode separation is pretty decent, 1 x6-> 2 x4.33-> 3 x3.85-> 4 x3.5-> 5 x2.94-> 6. Mode 6 is 1030x brighter than mode 1, so that's a little extreme. I might change M1/M2 to 1.0Lm & 3.5Lm, and have a duplicate mode with L2 & M1 for 3.5Lm max, or highest mode 350x brighter than the lowest mode. On second thought, because L2 & M1 will nicely go back and forth on press and hold, if there is to be a duplicate mode, it should be lower in the mode sequence, H2 & L1. Deep thoughts for nearly 5AM.


----------



## greenpondmike (Sep 21, 2020)

Prevent glairback


----------



## greenpondmike (Sep 21, 2020)

To keep from over illuminating something


----------



## Lumen83 (Sep 22, 2020)

I think 25 -100 lumens of warm tint LED or incan is about perfect for almost all of my usage. I still use a surefife 6P the most of any light. I mostly use these inside the house or in and around vehicles. 15-50 lumens is probably preferred for me in these situations. I don't want to burn my retinas out trying to fish the dog toys out from under the couch. If I'm going out to do something like walk the dog on a wide open trail at night, I grab a bigger light. If I'm in a sketchy area of town at night, I carry an EDCL1-T with 500 lumens. Its all about planning accordingly. There's a light for every task. Thats the best part about this hobby, if you ignore your bank account statements. However, If you're talking about what a lot of people carry or use the most, don't be suprised that they're carrying and using sub 100 lumen lights. They're not trying to go blind finding the screw that just rolled under the refrigerator.


----------



## flatline (Sep 22, 2020)

Almost 10 years ago I was cleaning out a lab at work and found a handful of 14505 cells that were going to be thrown out, so I brought them home. These are lithium primary cells the same dimensions as an AA with large capacity but able to provide only low currents. I dropped one in my 4-sevens Quark AA and discovered that that Moonlight and Low worked fine, but the higher modes couldn't function.

I've been using that Quark AA for 5-10 minutes worth of light 3 or 4 nights a week for the last 10 years on the same 14505.

It turns out that for lots of uses, a small amount of light put in precisely the place you need it is all you need. Too much light can make seeing fine detail just as difficult as not enough light. If I weren't a compulsive fidgeter, I would totally get a rotary light so that I can dial in the exact amount of light I want.


----------



## kumasan2020 (Sep 23, 2020)

1. Enough to look around.
2. Fever is mild
3. Long runtime


I carry a Klarus Mini ONE Ti with me


----------



## timbo813 (Sep 23, 2020)

My normal carry right now is a streamlight microstream (rechargeable). It gets the nod most of the time just because of how easy it is to carry and I like the momentary on/off with the push button. The 50 lumen low mode is good for most uses and way more than I want in the middle of the night. I put my thumb over the emitter for walking into the bedroom after my wife is in bed. On my nightstand I keep a zebralight with it's sub-lumen modes. Its really a better light but not as easy to carry. 

There are two times I need/want really bright lights. 
-Outside trying to see animals in the distance. 
-At work looking at pipe and equipment far away (especially past the overhead lights) 

95% of the time 50 lumens is more than enough. 
75% of the time 10 lumens would be fine.
In the middle of the night in a dark house sub-lumen is better


----------



## chillinn (Sep 23, 2020)

kumasan2020 said:


> I carry a Klarus Mini ONE Ti with me



8Lm is enough, often more than enough, at times too much, for anything indoors after gathering some dark adapted eyes. Also, :welcome:




timbo813 said:


> The 50 lumen low mode is good for most uses and way more than I want in the middle of the night...
> 95% of the time 50 lumens is more than enough.
> 75% of the time 10 lumens would be fine.
> In the middle of the night in a dark house sub-lumen is better



Freaked me out with your 50Lm low. But you redeemed yourself in the end. I guess the fact is if one carries a flashlight, most of that carry time is during the day, and you'll need more lumens during the day to overcome ambient light.


----------



## mccririck (Sep 26, 2020)

A super bright light is too bright in average size rooms. Also its more dangerous if you accidentally look at it or if you accidentally shine it in someone's eyes.


----------



## Lynx_Arc (Sep 26, 2020)

I've noticed at work I leave my headlamp on the 50 lumen mode most of the time and it is enough about 75% of the time. I could get by with 15 lumens about half the time but that makes for mode time spent switching modes to when I need 30-50 lumens. 5 lumens is a waste of time for me as there is often too much light pollution that shuts down your eyes and I often work near the ceiling where it is darker looking up into darkness while standing where there is light shining on me from a distance. When you are older and your eyes get weaker you need more light to see clearly. I find having 120-200 lumens a "step up" and 300-500 lumens on occasion helps to navigate unfamiliar areas as you can reach out at a distance if your light is not a thrower and I almost always use a headlamp for lighting at work so I can have both hands free to climb ladders and work. I often use one hand to hold onto something while reaching around obstacles with the other hand to work.


----------



## etc (Sep 26, 2020)

Discretion. Sometimes you don't want to attraction attention.

Having said that, I think a single mode light is obsolete. I love the Malkoff high-low ring concept where you have 25 lumens on low and 800 on high, case in point, in Malkoff M91T.


----------



## distrbd (Sep 26, 2020)

This thread or should I say the question( why one would need a low-lumen light) made me ask myself : Do I even have a low lumen light? then I looked inside my very small collection of inexpensive flashlights and sure enough I found one. Fenix E01 , it is discontinued now but supposedly throws 13 lumen (but it's purplish blue).

I stopped using it after a short while, the main reason was the low output, never thought it would be useful/ handy to have around until I read a post here this morning about a young mother looking for a 3 lumen light or less, low enough to see at night to change baby's dippers, this scenario would never have crossed my mind so it goes to show you , if a low lumen light is on the market, then there has to be a need for it, whether we can see or understand that reason . 
I did buy a ITP A3 EOS (150 lumens) for my EDC /key chain and still carry it in my pocket 13 years later.


----------



## Lynx_Arc (Sep 26, 2020)

etc said:


> Discretion. Sometimes you don't want to attraction attention.
> 
> Having said that, I think a single mode light is obsolete. I love the Malkoff high-low ring concept where you have 25 lumens on low and 800 on high, case in point, in Malkoff M91T.


I like single mode lights for some uses like standby lights at home when you find yourself needing a light on the spur of the moment you can grab one and turn it on and go with the only mode it has instead of fumbling with modes till you get the right one. Having cheap single mode lights you can even use alkaleaks in them if they ruin one just toss it. My former favorite single mode light was a 3AA one from Home Depot sporting a luxeon with a resistor. the only problem with these lights is the plastic they were made of was a little brittle and over half of the ones I bought were broken and a few alkaleakage ruined the contacts and switches but they put out about 40 lumens fading to nothing over hours and hours. I replaced the last one I broke with an Energizer floating 2AA light that puts out about 50 lumens for about $9 that I hung on a carabiner on a nail on the edge of a shelf in the garage.


----------



## flatline (Sep 26, 2020)

I have several single mode lights in the 30-60L range and I love them for regular use.

I don't want a light to surprise me, and multi-mode lights always have that posibility.


----------



## RogerToo (Sep 29, 2020)

wayben said:


> I've never experienced leakage of fresh cells either, always been things I've left sitting around for extended periods and forgot about. I do use eneloops in my good flashlights, just to avoid the problem altogether. Still use alkalines in cheap flashlights and appreciate that I can use them in the good ones in an emergency.
> 
> Wayne



18 years at the same very hot and dirty foundry using nothing but AA batteries and my experience is the same. Never have I had or seen anyone have a leak with daily use. The only time I have seen that is from old remotes or clocks that had old batteries in them for years.


----------



## bykfixer (Sep 29, 2020)

I've had good service from Rayovac alkalines in all sizes. I use them in my 100 year old flashlights. I no longer store them in antique lights due to parasitic drain in them. I did for a while until I kept finding the batteries were dead after a year or so. 
It's kinda cool carrying a 1919 miners light while walking around the grounds of an old inn at night. Kinda like being back in time. Or using a WW2 era military issue with a magnifier bulb (#222 type) in dark woods pretending nearby street lights are a burning buildings after a bombing raid. My 1940's Olin 2C has a clear red plastic bezel ring to act as a safety wand so walking around a well lit neighborhood with it dangling by my side shows approaching cars a red glow in an attention getting motion. 

Like someone said before "dark aint getting any darker" so what worked way back in the stone age still works today.


----------



## Monocrom (Oct 1, 2020)

Must admit, Rayos are underrated. I buy them all the time. Ironically, if more folks knew how good they are; the prices would jump up.


----------



## The Hawk (Oct 15, 2020)

I use a low lumen LED torch every morning when I get up. It's still dark outside, and I don't want to flip on a light in the house as that would cause wifey to wake up. I use that LED flashlight to navigate my way into the kitchen. If you have ever stepped on pet discharge, you can relate.


----------



## FPSRelic (Oct 15, 2020)

Before Surefire's, people got by with Maglites, which were rated at about 22 lumens output. When Surefire came around, their claim was that you needed at least 65 lumens of eye searing brightness to blind an opponent, which is put to shame by your 500 to 600 lumens output. Personally, I find that I can do 85% of my tasks in the dark with older throwier XRE based emitters at 5 - 15 lumens when compared to the fatter new LED's. 

Also, lights from that era tend to use flat regulation, where you would actually get 200 lumens for 2 hours, as opposed to the loophole aiming ANSI standard step down regulation pretty much all new lights use. That 500 lumens your current light uses for example - I bet it runs at 500 lumens for exactly 2 minutes from switch on, after which, it'll step down in power to about 300 lumens, and then tail off after that as the battery gets tired, to try and increase that runtime before it hits the magical 10% of maximum output of 50 lumens. So in reality, you're probably working with outputs way below 500 lumens all the time and just don't know it.


----------



## Swedpat (Oct 16, 2020)

flatline said:


> I have several single mode lights in the 30-60L range and I love them for regular use.
> 
> I don't want a light to surprise me, and multi-mode lights always have that posibility.



I think the same and have and like single mode lights in different brightnesses. But that is also the reason I like Thrunite/Wowtac and Acebeam. Some other brands have memory on all modes. This means next time you turn it on, if you don't remember what level you used last time(or accidently changed the mode) and want low mode: oops! turbo mode! And if you want instant turbomode the risk is that the light puts on at lowest mode and you need to cycle through the modes(the same with multimodes without memory).

Thrunite/Wowtac and Acebeam have direct access to firefly and turbo and memory on the regular modes. 
This means that you can always have direct access to turbo and firefly but never accidently. And you can go direct from firefly into the regular modes if you want to be sure you get low instead of mid or high. I really like this user interface!


----------



## Lynx_Arc (Oct 16, 2020)

Swedpat said:


> I think the same and have and like single mode lights in different brightnesses. But that is also the reason I like Thrunite/Wowtac and Acebeam. Some other brands have memory on all modes. This means next time you turn it on, if you don't remember what level you used last time(or accidently changed the mode) and want low mode: oops! turbo mode! And if you want instant turbomode the risk is that the light puts on at lowest mode and you need to cycle through the modes(the same with multimodes without memory).
> 
> Thrunite/Wowtac and Acebeam have direct access to firefly and turbo and memory on the regular modes.
> This means that you can always have direct access to turbo and firefly but never accidently. And you can go direct from firefly into the regular modes if you want to be sure you get low instead of mid or high. I really like this user interface!



I know my A2S has memory but when you bump to the next mode after turning off/on it goes to low which is ideal for me. If it was on medium (memorized) and turned off the next "mode" bump is Low. I also like having Turbo a direct mode too that you don't regularly access as I don't use Turbo a lot but when I do need it I need it NOW not 2-3 modes later.


----------



## Olumin (Oct 16, 2020)

What are the reasons for carrying a high lumen light? With 15 Lumens of output I can see anything I want 90% of the time. Out of the remaining 10%, 9% of the time I do not require more then 50 - 80 Lumens. 

Now this is for a carry light, an EDC sized torch. I do not use EDC Lights outside. Almost never. For that I have other, more capable and bigger torches, with better brightness and more throw. I do not carry full sized 18650 lights on a daily basis. 

For a carry light, I’d gladly trade brightness for better color temperature and better runtime. Or simply for not having to deal with a complicated interface and many modes. Now I, for a long time, believed myself that for that remaining 1%, I would need a torch that can output 300 or more Lumens, but I have given up on that philosophy. When it comes down to it, a dual-output 15-80 Lumen light is all I need on a daily basis.


----------



## greenpondmike (Oct 21, 2020)

Well Olumin, I agree with you. I prefer lower lumens myself but I can see how higher lumens can be useful though. High lumens can give a person a since of security though when it comes to dealing with the unknown but also the known human kind. Sometimes you just have to disable someone's night vision if they are trying to hurt you- that's about the best thing you can do to keep yourself from a future lawsuit or even jailtime while trying to protect your own life seeing how the law is on the criminal's side now.
People that work night construction sometimes need bright lights in many different situations. People in the city need higher lumens that are unnecessary in the country. 
All lights are fun in the country though, but...sometimes I wonder if I'm going to see something I really don't want to see- something I can't easily unsee.


----------



## Lynx_Arc (Oct 21, 2020)

greenpondmike said:


> Well Olumin, I agree with you. I prefer lower lumens myself but I can see how higher lumens can be useful though. High lumens can give a person a since of security though when it comes to dealing with the unknown but also the known human kind. Sometimes you just have to disable someone's night vision if they are trying to hurt you- that's about the best thing you can do to keep yourself from a future lawsuit or even jailtime while trying to protect your own life seeing how the law is on the criminal's side now.
> People that work night construction sometimes need bright lights in many different situations. People in the city need higher lumens that are unnecessary in the country.
> All lights are fun in the country though, but...sometimes I wonder if I'm going to see something I really don't want to see- something I can't easily unsee.


I work construction not at night but early in the morning and when there is thick clouds and storms it can be very dark and the lights on site can either be non existent or spotty at best leaving areas that are pitch dark surrounded by bright light sources often they are in the way and pointing downwards you need a lot of light because your eyes are shut down. I often have to inspect lines running up near the ceiling and having 300+ lumens on a more floody light makes quick work of it you don't need to constantly focus your light on the lines as everything is lit up in a larger area. Sometimes 5 lumens works, other times it takes 100-200 and on occasion 300-1000 lumens. 
Having 2 lights would work in this effort but I prefer to use only a headlamp which mine is not as throwy as some lights and not too floody as some lights so to make up for it I need less and more lumens, less when you need flood in a small area and more when you need focused light in a distant area to make up for less throw.

Essentially in familiar terrain lower lumens may suffice but in unknown terrain with odd lighting you can find a low lumen light neutralized totally when you need it by light pollution.


----------



## idleprocess (Oct 22, 2020)

Lynx_Arc said:


> Essentially in familiar terrain lower lumens may suffice but in unknown terrain with odd lighting you can find a low lumen light neutralized totally when you need it by light pollution.



For most use cases multimode LED lights have been able to hit both extremes with ease for a decade plus.


----------



## lunas (Oct 22, 2020)

for me i have a number of lights i could carry but I dont feel the need right now i have 5 on me 2 in my bag a 2x aaa led mag a solar force body with a 1800 lumen cree hp35 led in it my maglight is a loaner and for use when i don't want to turn night into day for less than 3 minutes... solarforce gets HOT pumping out those photons... then the other 3 i have with me are a thor fire TG06s a nitecore tube and a fenix E05 I use the tube or fenix most honestly the two factors that matter to me is which ever is most handy to grab followed by runtime i grab my bright one sometimes but i find myself wishing it did not get so hot.


----------



## Lynx_Arc (Oct 22, 2020)

idleprocess said:


> For most use cases multimode LED lights have been able to hit both extremes with ease for a decade plus.



I agree that is why I've gone to multimode lights with lows and decent high modes for my "best" and most used lights.


----------

