# Building a battery pack for 4D mag mod



## jasonck08 (Dec 27, 2008)

I need to fit either 12AA or 12 2/3A batteries into a 3D mag. I do NOT want to have to do any boring. I measured the inside of my 3D mag, and its 8".

I was thinking of using flat top batteries. The height lists 49mm, but that is probably for the ones with the nipple. I would assume the flat tops 48mm. 48mm x 4 = 19.2cm = 7.55". It would likely end up a little bigger than 7.55 because of the solder tabs.

I'm trying to do things as cheaply as possible. Sending in my 3D to get it bored would likely cost $40ish including shipping both ways.

I want to make a lite with the Osram 64623 

Please advise.


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## vestureofblood (Dec 27, 2008)

*Re: Building a battery pack for 3D mag mod*



jasonck08 said:


> I need to fit either 12AA or 12 2/3A batteries into a 3D mag. I do NOT want to have to do any boring. I measured the inside of my 3D mag, and its 8".
> 
> I was thinking of using flat top batteries. The height lists 49mm, but that is probably for the ones with the nipple. I would assume the flat tops 48mm. 48mm x 4 = 19.2cm = 7.55". It would likely end up a little bigger than 7.55 because of the solder tabs.
> 
> ...


 
Hi jason,

I dont know of any way to get 12AAs into a 3D mag without boring. 4 duracell prechared AAs will fit in quad but they are too tight to get any shrink around. If you mag is an old style from years ago with no "D" in the serial number the ID in them is larger and that my work. For my mag623 I decided to skip using my 3 D and bought a 4 D so 12 or in my case 13 AAs will fit with no boring needed, I have also run the same light off of 4x 18650s from a Milwaukee tool pack.


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## VegasF6 (Dec 27, 2008)

*Re: Building a battery pack for 3D mag mod*

That's gonna be a tight one, huh? Are you planning on having the pack welded or do you want it in a carrier that you can break down? I stuck my eneloops down a 3D 4 deep and they came to just past the threads. So I am thinking at the very least you may need to move the switch up and bore the tailcap. Or perhaps get the wide stainless tailcap offered by FiveMega. Not that I am any authority on this or anything.

I was pursuing the 623 awhile back however, and another member was nice enough to furnish me with these links:
Charger:
http://www.all-battery.com/index.asp...ROD&ProdID=836 

Driver
http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/...n+drive&page=5

Battery Pack:
http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/...d.php?t=176185

Optional and Expensive Super Throw head:
http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/...d.php?t=174247

FM's MOP Reflector Also you can get the Borofloat lens from him too
http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/...d.php?t=163470

Or this Lens (Disputed as better than Boro)
http://www.lighthound.com/index.asp?...OD&ProdID=1542


And if you are not goin use a 4D, I'm not going to, you need a tri bore 2D
http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/...d.php?t=156080

Maybe that will help you out? In fact I need to check with that guy and see if he ever completed this.


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## jasonck08 (Dec 27, 2008)

*Re: Building a battery pack for 3D mag mod*

Thanks for all of the links, but the only item you listed that is in my price range would be the Charger. Just to give you an idea of how much I want to spend on this project:
 
Mag: $18
Reflector: $10 @ KD
Bi-pin adaptor: $10 @ KD
Titanium Power Max AA 1800 mAh Qty. 12 @ $20
64623 Bulb: $5
Cheap glass Lens: $2
 
Total of $45 just for the mag and $20 for the batteries. I already have copper sheeting springs and heat shrink. And I guess I'll just go with a 4D mag.
 
Will the mags internal parts handle the 10amps? I probably should do some kind of switch mod? What about the bulb holder to bi-pin adapter? Is that good enough for do I need to do something else? Thanks!


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## VegasF6 (Dec 27, 2008)

*Re: Building a battery pack for 3D mag mod*

Well, I hate to keep pointing you at expensive stuff, but this is kind of a high end light you are making. I don't feel that much current is something to take lightly, ya know?

From the destructive bulb thread:
http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h75/pike444/bulbs/64623.jpg
The 64623 shows a flash voltage at 16.9 (from a power supply)

High discharge AA's like that will probably come off the charger in the range of 1.45V, maybe a little more. I know I just flashed a 1185 the other day off Eneloops. 

I am pretty sure those cells have been tested in the battery forum, I didn't bother to look right this second. But, if I recall correctly, they did just fine at well over 5C. I am not so sure at 10C but that is beside the point. So, the highest amp draw I see in Lux's thread is 10.7 and that is at 16.5 volts. You can probably be assured of higher than that, at least for a brief moment or two. 

Fivemega makes a bi-pin adapter here:
https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/160915
He states testing it to 50 watts. The good thing about the Fivemega besides being assured top quality, you can write him directly about using it for a 100W over driven bulb. The KD flavor, well, I did buy that one, I had planned to use it in a 5761, but it still sits in my parts bin. 

I am kind of surprised the bulb isn't flashing at these voltages, I guess it can only be attributed to a combination of resistance and voltage sag. 

There is a thread here about doing this with both 12 and 13 cells:
https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/187192
And about different size hosts as well. Also more here:
https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/187707

I am sure you have read up on most of this, so I apologize if these links don't help. I only glanced quickly at them. 

I also seem to recall people saying the max current for the mag switch is ~10 amps, which, on paper at 17+ volts you could be exceeding. But, again, since bulbs aren't flashing all over the place, I guess in practice that is right about where your current draw will come in.

One more quick discussion going on right now about high current draw and switching. 
https://www.candlepowerforums.com/posts/2759097

May or may not apply.

Best of luck though!
VegasF6


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## mdocod (Dec 27, 2008)

*Re: Building a battery pack for 3D mag mod*

At bare minimum you are going to need to modify the switch, ideally, a complete switch replacement would be best (like an AW soft-start or a reverse clicker rated high current mounted in a custom assembly)... 

You are going to run into 2 problems with the stock switch:

1. It uses a plastic bulb tower, it will melt if you run it too long with such a high power mod. 
2. It has quite a bit of resistance, which at these power levels, will introduce a lot of heat right in the switch, and will likely cause failure relatively quickly...

The cheapest solution to your problems is going to be to skip the KD bi-pin socket, and go with a KIU ceramic socket modification. With the KIU kit (which isn't that expensive at all), you are cutting off the bulb tower from the switch, and replacing it with a pair of metal stand-offs and a ceramic bi-pin socket, which is all far more suitable for the heat you are going to be dealing with. While you have the switch assembly out to do those modifications, you can also take apart the mag switch and do some resistance fixes, like de-ox and pro-golding the contacts, and there is a modification involving a by-pass wire that can be done as well.... (Search for "mag switch resistance fix" for instructions)....

Eric


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## VegasF6 (Dec 28, 2008)

*Re: Building a battery pack for 3D mag mod*

Very good reply Eric. Another option is of course is a high power mosfet like being discussed in the thread I linked. Price wise here you are looking at adding a buck or two to your build. If you don't count your labor of course


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## jasonck08 (Dec 28, 2008)

*Re: Building a battery pack for 3D mag mod*

Thanks for your responses so far... At mdocod thanks for your great recomendation regarding the KIU kit. I ordered it. $15 shipped is very reasonable.


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## jasonck08 (Dec 28, 2008)

*Re: Building a battery pack for 3D mag mod*

What reflector should I order from Kaidomain... one of these?

Please don't link me to a $30 reflector, because I can not afford that. Thanks!


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## ANDREAS FERRARI (Dec 28, 2008)

*Re: Building a battery pack for 3D mag mod*

You need the one with the 15mm opening-the Osram 623 won't fit thru the openning of the 8.3 reflector.I use 3 of these KD reflectors in my ROP's and they work great.Pick the SMO for maximum throw.


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## worldedit (Dec 28, 2008)

*Re: Building a battery pack for 3D mag mod*

I got 8AA Eneloops in a 2D Mag. They fit perfect if you wrap them in thinner tape.


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## jasonck08 (Dec 28, 2008)

*Re: Building a battery pack for 3D mag mod*

Eneloops do not supply enough current for my application. I'm going to be pushing 10-11amps. I think I'll be going with These They can handle up to 18amps.
 
If / When I build a battery pack can I just solder everything together and attach the batteries using copper tabs? I know some people weld them like Lux, but is it really necessary. I know it’s stronger. Any advice? Oh and BTW I will be using the flat top batteries.


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## mdocod (Dec 28, 2008)

*Re: Building a battery pack for 3D mag mod*

Soldering is hard on any battery, especially a smaller battery with less thermal mass to sink the heat into... Heat is one of the primary enemies of almost every battery chemistry out there. There are a lot of video's online of people soldering NIMH cells... You might watch a few for tips. There are a few tricks out there for soldering cells end-to-end, but it's going to be tricky.


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## vestureofblood (Dec 28, 2008)

*Re: Building a battery pack for 3D mag mod*



jasonck08 said:


> Thanks for your responses so far... At mdocod thanks for your great recomendation regarding the KIU kit. I ordered it. $15 shipped is very reasonable.


 Good choice on the KIU, an osram 64623 has pins that are too lager for the KD bi pin adapter anyway. I have a KIU I have used in my 623 a time or two.



jasonck08 said:


> What reflector should I order from Kaidomain... one of these?
> 
> 
> Please don't link me to a $30 reflector, because I can not afford that. Thanks!


 
I also have a few KD reflectors I would recommend the MOP as an osram that size has several artefacts in it and the SMO from KD has rings in the beam with any bulb I have put in it. You will have to bore it out a bit. Just flip it upside down on a cloth and drill a larger hole, then rinse it out in cool water DONT WIPE IT it WILL scratch, just PAT it dry with a lens cloth or similar ( a very soft cotton shirt or what ever ). Another thing I would like to mention is the heat don't run the light for too long at once (only a minute or two at a time or you could scorch the finish on any reflector, I ruined a 30$ one that way.



jasonck08 said:


> Eneloops do not supply enough current for my application. I'm going to be pushing 10-11amps. I think I'll be going with These They can handle up to 18amps.
> 
> If / When I build a battery pack can I just solder everything together and attach the batteries using copper tabs? I know some people weld them like Lux, but is it really necessary. I know it’s stronger. Any advice? Oh and BTW I will be using the flat top batteries.


 
Personaly I would recommend going with one of the battery carriers that Mdocod sells rather than a soldred pack, I have used one for this mod and it does the job. However if you are going to solder the pack, you will need a hammer head soldering tip or something similar ( I used a bolt that treads into my iron, and a very HOT soldering Iron mine is rated at like 950 degrees and that's really not as hot as I would like. You need to be able to make the connections quickly so there will be less chance of damaging the cells. Here is a video showing the technique, one thing I noticed in this vid is how quickly it was done (hot and fast so only the very end of the cell is heated ).


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## jasonck08 (Dec 28, 2008)

*Re: Building a battery pack for 3D mag mod*

I want to build a battery pack for experience, and because I can build one for less than mdocod sells them for. I can get the batteries for $20 and already have heatshrink and stuff. If I went with a battery carrier it would cost $25 + the cells.


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## petersmith6 (Dec 29, 2008)

*Re: Building a battery pack for 3D mag mod*

at 180mAh Max charge it would be 5 mins of fun and 15 hours waiting for them to charge up


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## jasonck08 (Dec 29, 2008)

*Re: Building a battery pack for 3D mag mod*



petersmith6 said:


> at 180mAh Max charge it would be 5 mins of fun and 15 hours waiting for them to charge up


 
Actually it would be longer than 5 minutes. 12x 1800mAH batteries = 25.92 Whr's. Overdriving the bulb to 14.4v would be 120W's. So it would be about 13 minutes. But your not going to get the full 1800mAH capacity out of the batteries at such a discharge. So it would be more like 10 minutes of runtime.

I don't plan on using it with the 100W bulb the whole time. I just want it to be capable of such a high powered bulb. I have 20W and 35W 12v Osram bulbs that I'll use in it for most of the time...

------------

Now one thing I'm confused about is the little spring that the + of batteries touch in a D mag. This little spring can't possible handle 10 amps... can it? And then the switch that would need some modding. I'm still a little confused about the electrical system of a mag and what it can handle.


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## jasonck08 (Dec 29, 2008)

*Re: Building a battery pack for 3D mag mod*

I have a new idea for the battery pack. Instead of using 12x 1800mah Titaniums. I'll use 13x 2/3A (1500mah Elite) cells stacked virtically in the mag. This will give me a 15.6v pack with only a slight compromise in mah.

Total of 23.4 Whr's.


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## jcvjcvjcvjcv (Dec 29, 2008)

Erhm, I just got 16 new Eneloops today and they fit nice four wide in my Mag 4D.

No boring, no spring shortening, no switch cut-off; 16 AA's clean in a 4D.

I've seen 16AA's in a 3D (or 20 in a 4D) on this forum. But that was with a shortened switch and the tailcap cut off by a few mm and quadbored for slightly fatter AA's.

But how do you plan to get the 623 into a socket in the stock switch? 6.35 mm socket?...
I would recommend the KIU socket; that way you don't have the melting tower problem and you have the socket covered. And not as expensive as a hotdriver. (Yeah, I like to keep it cheap too.)


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## jasonck08 (Dec 30, 2008)

Hi I already ordered the KIU socket....

Also, I have 32 Eneloop AA's that I use for various things, and your right they do fit just fine in a D size mag. The reason I have so many eneloops is I picked up 3x 8 packs at Circuit City for $3.33 a while back... What a steal!

Eneloops will not cut it for this project. I'm going to be pushing 11 Amps per cell. From what I have read Eneloops are best for 6-7Amps and less, but they can do 10 Amps, but the voltage sags to about 1.1v, and that probably isn't the best for the cells life. I will probably use eneloops in future hotwire mag projects that are not quite as current intensive as this one.

Also if anyone has any comments or suggestions regarding my above post #18 regarding a 13x 2/3A Elite pack, please post.


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## ANDREAS FERRARI (Dec 30, 2008)

LuxLuther used to make battery packs for 4D Mags with 12 Elite AA 1700's with a 4/5 sub C as the 13th cell.These packs were 3 wide.The spring would have to be removed and the cap deanodized.How do you plan on mounting the 13th cell?After you weld the cells together and shrinkwrap it may not fit without quadboring your Mag.Are you going 3 across or 4 across?I just put 4 Eneloops into a Mag-4 wide and they just fit.With some sort of wrap to prevent grounding to the body, 4 wide won't fit without boring.


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## mdocod (Dec 30, 2008)

jasonck08,

clarify your configuration for the 2/3A cells.... I'm honestly not sure what you have in mind for that... But it has me interested.. I wonder if a 2/3A size cell would fit "sideways" in a mag-body? They are only about 15mm diameter, if they did fit that way, then you could do simple tab-style soldering the whole length of the pack and have a final length of ~200mm, which should fit in a 4D with room to spare....

Anyone out there have a 2/3A cell they would test sideways in a mag body? I just tested a CR123 (which is a little larger) and it's just a little to big....


hmmmm


Eric


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## LumenHound (Dec 30, 2008)

For a no-bore 3D Mag 623 consider the following: 

12 2/3A Elite cells in a dual 6 cell long tightly welded stack is the same length as 3 regular D cells. A 13th 2/3A cell *will* fit in the space the stock spring would take up but there's not much internal length left after that and the cells need to be tightly stacked.


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## jasonck08 (Dec 30, 2008)

@ mdocod

This is what I am talking about:







*The above sketch is not to scale!

There should be plenty of room. All 13 cells should be about 8.6" long. I believe that mag 4D is about 9.5" to the threads, so that would leave some room for some kind of spacer / spring for the + and -.

Let me know your thoughts, I want to order the batteries soon.


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## jcvjcvjcvjcv (Dec 30, 2008)

If the Elite 2/3A is really 28.7mm long by 16.76mm diameter then you would need a internal diameter of the MagLite of:

((28.7^2)+(16.76^2))^.5=33,24 mm

But the positive top might be the highest point, so that would make it a little less.


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## VegasF6 (Dec 30, 2008)

Anyone out there have a 2/3A cell they would test sideways in a mag body? I just tested a CR123 (which is a little larger) and it's just a little to big....

I just tested one of my 2/3A and it fits easily. But, mine isn't an Elite, its an 1100mAH Watt. Should be very similar though.

Mine measures 27.65MMx16.85MM. CBP calls the Elite at 28.70X16.76.

I suppose you could just use silicone wire and connectors at the mag switch and eliminate the need for the spring and bottom connection all together?


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## jasonck08 (Dec 30, 2008)

What is the internal diameter of a mag? About 33mm or 34mm?






Does anyone have any 2/3A cells, or Elite cells that they could try in a D mag. I would really like to know how they fit. Thanks!


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## jasonck08 (Dec 31, 2008)

Anyone with 2/3A cells they could try out in their 3D mag. Specifically Elite 1500 cells. I bet Lux has some...


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## VegasF6 (Dec 31, 2008)

Jason, I did post above that I tried dropping the 2/3A down a mag 3D sideways and it fit easily, even though they were a different brand. Isn't that the information you were looking for? If I can do something different to help, let me know.


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## jasonck08 (Dec 31, 2008)

Thanks Vegas, I was just wanting to see if someone out there had Elite 1500's, but I guess yours are very close in size. Do you think there is plenty of room for heatshrink and soldering bars? I'll probably be ordering some Elites soon.


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## VegasF6 (Dec 31, 2008)

Yes, there is a significant amount of room. I don't see it being a problem at all. I will try and get you some photo's tomorrow if I can.


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## LuxLuthor (Dec 31, 2008)

Send a PM to draw someone's attention to a thread, as I didn't read it until just now. Elite 1500mAh 2/3A cells fit in an unbored MagD the way you are planning. End to end they are 8.5" Just make sure you have a secure, low resistance connection between the cells that is protected from shorting against inside body. A sharp edge of copper strip can slice through shrink when sliding in/out. I'm almost sure you won't have room for solder bars on both ends. I would also recommend getting a couple extra cells, as one of the biggest problems with any high current output NiMH is that some percentage are 'substandard,' and become the weak link. Check voltages on arrival, and you would be wise to test & condition the cells and check voltages at various steps to see if they are all holding about the same matched volts before making into a pack. You will get about 7 mins of run time with 64623, but don't use it for long run times. If head is getting hot, let cool down. It is very easy to significantly damage cells & plastic separators unless proper soldering technique is used. I won't use the Titanium 1800mAh AA cells after a number of bad experiences with 30-40 cells over last 2 years--only use Elite 1700mAh AA's in that size category for more than 7A output. Less than 7A, Enelooops do well. You would also be wise to get an extra 64623. Good luck!


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## jasonck08 (Dec 31, 2008)

Thanks Lux. I just placed an order for 15 Elite 1500 2/3A cells. I was already planning to get a couple extra, but thanks for confirming that this is a good idea.
 
I practiced soldering yesterday with some old no good batteries.... after watching some YouTube videos of guys building battery packs. I have a sheet of copper that I will be cutting strips from.
 
I found a source for Osram bulbs on eBay. The price is $3 for the first bulb and $6 for shipping. But additional shipping per item is only 30 cents, so I'll probably order a variety of bulbs to use in this light (and other hotwires in the future). From a 5W bi-pin to the 100W 623 bulb.


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## LuxLuthor (Dec 31, 2008)

OK, good luck. I usually get my bulbs from www.bulbconnection.com so cross compare your EBay prices with shipping to them.


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