# got gold in your bug out bag?



## TedTheLed (Aug 25, 2006)

so what to do in the event paper money (and credit cards of course) become worthless? what has high intrinsic value and is easy for most people to recognize the value of? Ounces of gold are cheaper than tenths of ounces but what if you need something that's worth less than $6-7-800 ? you don't want to hand over a Krugerand for a tank of gas -- (at least I hope thats not what a tankfull will cost..)

_(Moderator note: Hot linked pics not allowed IAW CPF Rules.)_ 

these are 1/10 ounce US gold bullion eagles, they cost $70 each.
the cost of gold right now is $622 an ounce. 
you can also get silver coins -- possibly another good idea.

this place seems to be a good place to do business, free shipping and insurance on orders over $2000;
http://www.golddealer.com/index.asp

come to think of it, batteries and reasonably priced flashlights would probably be worth their weight in, well, silver, at least, don't ya think?

any thoughts, advice?


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## Sub_Umbra (Aug 25, 2006)

I've always liked old 'scrap' silver US coins. They have a few cool wrinkles in emergencies and less dramatic hard times.


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## ledlurker (Aug 25, 2006)

In the 90's I got 200 silver dollars for $3 each. I was going to use them to make some christmas gift which never materialized. Now they might be worth, oh maybee $2000 or more


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## chesterqw (Aug 26, 2006)

WOW. you should melt them and make a light out of them.


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## TedTheLed (Aug 26, 2006)

ledly, just the bullion price of silver dollars is around $13...
check this list, in near perfect condition, some of the Morgans are worth far more: http://www.golddealer.com/morgan.html


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## Mike Painter (Aug 26, 2006)

Such currency, even if they did not steal it from you, would only be of little value for a short while if things went that bad.
Gold has no more intrinsic value than diamonds or feathers or sea shells.
People put the value on it and you can't eat gold.
When I lived on the Baja coast we traded lobster for hamburger and both sides thought they were the winners, but they hadn't lived on lobster for a couple of months.


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## Bogie (Aug 26, 2006)

I buy most of my PM's from www.APMEX.com I keep in my BOB $500 in Cash (small bills nothing bigger than a 20,$ 20 in 90% Silver, and 5 Silver American Eagles. Gold & Larger Silver Stash is split between home,my Brothers place (10 min from me) & my buddies house (20 min)


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## TedTheLed (Aug 26, 2006)

Mike I understand what you are saying -- whatever is used as money depends on what the crowd agrees it's worth, but I disagree about gold having no more intrinsic value than feathers, shells, or diamonds. Gold has been used as money, and for it's intrinsic value, by man for a very long time. The commercial demand for gold has always been far greater than it's production, suggesting a greater intrinsic value.

Who doesn't know gold is worth something? Diamonds have less intrinsic value since there are alot of them and the 'scarcity' of diamonds is artificially created by armies surrounding the diamond mines, limiting the amount of diamonds that come out of them -- otherwise they woud be worth less. Most gold mined since the beginning is in storage; used as money. 

When we both meet at the 'gas station' and I offer a tenth ounce gold coin for a tank of gas. and you offer feathers, or diamonds, (who knows what they're worth?) who do you think is going to drive away?

(of course you might use the feathers to fly away..  )


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## Illum (Aug 26, 2006)

I dunno about it relating to this topic....but...

Silver sold in troy ounces, how much value is that at the minute?



TedTheLed said:


> you can also get silver coins -- possibly another good idea.


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## TedTheLed (Aug 26, 2006)

Illum, go to the golddealer.com site I listed in the first post, they have all that info. Morgan silver dollars (most common and recognized piece of silver ever, probably) at spot sound like what you might want.

as far as whether your post 'relates to the topic' -- as far as I am concerned it does! 

Anything from the mind of my fellow man is 'on topic' with me, just because it is from the mind of man, and to find truth one must associate, dream, try, randomize, but, I'm getting off topic...


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## TedTheLed (Aug 26, 2006)

New York Spot Price
*	MARKET IS CLOSED
(Will open in 45 hrs. 28 mins.)	*here is how the chart came out from the website -- sorry I can't arrange it better -- but you can figure it out. spot prices of glod and silver (scroll down) :
*
Metals
Date
Time
(EST)
Bid
Ask
Change
Low
High

*GOLD
08/25/2006
13:30
621.80
623.30
+2.40
+0.39%
619.00
625.40

*SILVER
08/25/2006
13:30
12.33
12.43
+0.05
+0.41%
12.15
12.49

---


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## Mike Painter (Aug 26, 2006)

TedTheLed said:


> Mike I understand what you are saying -- whatever is used as money depends on what the crowd agrees it's worth, but I disagree about gold having no more intrinsic value than feathers, shells, or diamonds. Gold has been used as money, and for it's intrinsic value, by man for a very long time. The commercial demand for gold has always been far greater than it's production, suggesting a greater intrinsic value.
> 
> Who doesn't know gold is worth something? Diamonds have less intrinsic value since there are alot of them and the 'scarcity' of diamonds is artificially created by armies surrounding the diamond mines, limiting the amount of diamonds that come out of them -- otherwise they woud be worth less. Most gold mined since the beginning is in storage; used as money.
> 
> ...



It would depend on the time and the place as to who would get more gas.
Diamonds were the choice for many during the war years because you could carry more of them and while diamonds per-se are very plentiful it was the cut stone that had the value.
Feathers and sea shells have all had this same "intrinsic" value at different times and locations on earth.
Given a total breakdown in a system and my (watch for it) pound of beans will get me more gas at a pump than your pound of gold.
I'd horde canned coffee before gold.


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## TedTheLed (Aug 26, 2006)

lol! I DO horde coffee!! I have many pounds of green coffee beans. But I drink it up fast! Right now I'm drinking some $15 a pound Panama Gesha -- yummy -- better than gasoline!!


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## NeonLights (Aug 26, 2006)

If society breaks down to the point that paper currency becomes worthless, there will be massive panic, rioting, looting, etc, and gold will be as worthless to buy goods as would other precious metals or diamonds. Three of the most valuable things you could own are large amounts of bottled water, canned food, and bullets (along with a gun of course). Possibly after some sense of normalcy returns to the society, gold may be worth something, but that could take months or years.

-Keith


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## MicroE (Aug 26, 2006)

Nobody will accept diamonds as payment except a jeweler.
Diamond replicas (cubic zirconia, and more importantly, Moissonite) are VERY difficult to recognize.
Gold will be more valuable than diamonds, IMHO.


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## Silviron (Aug 26, 2006)

_(Moderator note: Hot linked pics not allowed IAW CPF Rules.)_ 

*The above graphics are updated every half hour when the markets are open..... So, what you see should be current, even if you are looking at this thread in the distant future.*

www.kitco.com has some really neat resources for all kinds of metals investment research, plus a wide variety of metals prices banners that they let you use on your own web pages if you want. I've never done actual buying and/or selling with them, but I do find their site very useful for research, and have used their banners on several of my websites.

Yeah, diamonds are a risky to nearly worthless thing for bug out situations. The reason that they were preferred during WWII (and WWI) is that they were easier to smuggle out of Europe to America than anything else, and America was not in chaos, and therefore they still had value.... But you still had to find someone with cash to buy them. (Plus they were good for bribes, because the Nazis loved them too.)


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## metalhed (Aug 26, 2006)

Another important currency in an extended emergency will be prescription medications.

How long can you go without your insulin, heart medication, psychiatric medications, or pain relievers? How about your Mom, Grandpa, or Uncle?

Can you say 'ampicillin'?


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## TedTheLed (Aug 26, 2006)

Monday I'm going to call Raj at the pharmacy and ask him what he would do in that situation.

I don't know what he would take in exchange for the drugs, but I would bet he would give out drugs that people had been using on a regular basis..if he guards and runs the store..possibly events would unfold gradually enough for there to be a little time to prepare..

I would hope..


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## Trashman (Aug 26, 2006)

I used to have some 1 and 5 gram gold ingots (bars), but I sold 'em off, within a year of getting them, to buy more flashlights....


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## billgr (Aug 27, 2006)

i keep $35 in junk silver coins in my BOB, along with $500 in twenties and tens..

will the silver actually buy me something in a disaster?? i dont know....but it cant hurt to have it.

Bill


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## Sub_Umbra (Aug 27, 2006)

metalhed said:


> Another important currency in an extended emergency will be prescription medications.
> 
> How long can you go without your insulin, heart medication, psychiatric medications, or pain relievers? How about your Mom, Grandpa, or Uncle?
> 
> Can you say 'ampicillin'?


Good point. Aside from *real* localized shortages of RX meds, many common items that most of the public never gave any thought to may be used to turn the unprepared into political pawns. Water, food, medications, fuel, electricity, communications technology and many other things around us may become the new coin of the realm -- _elements of control_ in an emergency. I've already seen this played out. We were far too well prepared to be impacted by these tactics -- but *scores of thousands* weren't and many suffered and some probably died needlessly just to serve the political needs of those locally and regionally holding power. 

For just one example, after Katrina the city water, which had worked for days after the storm, was cut off -- only to be pressured up briefly at night -- so there would be one less incentive to stay in the city. Mayor Ray Nagin announced over and over again that the National Guard would no longer distribute *water* and *food* to those who remained. Eventually the man running the Federal response _had to go on the air_ and denounce the Mayor's crap and affirm that they would help anyone who needed assistance -- in spite of what the Mayor said to cover himself politically.

Any need that you may have may be used against you by any political hack if you haven't provided for yourself. If they cut off your water and you need it -- you may be ready to take your first step to a camp. This is the way it is.

We have a virtually unlimited supply of drinking water. We have a six month supply of food. We have a ten month supply of meds. When we decide to leave *it will be our decision,* not some jerk who has no problem selling us down the river in some lame attempt to save his rinky-dink job.

The twenty first century is not all *Disney World.*


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## TigerhawkT3 (Aug 27, 2006)

I think gold actually has value. It doesn't rust or tarnish (pharaoh gear looks shiny after millenia), and it's amazingly malleable and ductile, making it easy to work with.

In a big disaster, though, it might not be that great, unless people keep in mind that disasters usually end at some point.

A stockpile of the necessities seems like the best bet. You could either gouge and get rich (and unpopular...), or generously give it away and be elected mayor after the disaster.

Who am I to talk, though - I don't even have a BOB at all.


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## REparsed (Aug 27, 2006)

TedTheLed said:


> lol! I DO horde coffee!! I have many pounds of green coffee beans. But I drink it up fast! Right now I'm drinking some $15 a pound Panama Gesha -- yummy -- better than gasoline!!



I just roasted a pound of Moka Kadir blend from Sweet Maria's and it's almost time to order more. Where do you get your greens?


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## TedTheLed (Aug 27, 2006)

REparsed said:


> I just roasted a pound of Moka Kadir blend from Sweet Maria's and it's almost time to order more. Where do you get your greens?



SM's but of course! :thumbsup:  did you try the Kithungururu ?? (love that name.)

btw this isn't off topic -- coffee beans are the second greatest traded commodity in the world, behind oil...


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## REparsed (Aug 27, 2006)

Ted, 
I haven't tried the Kithungururu yet but I'll put it on my list since I lean toward the African and Indonesian coffee's. I like the Yirgacheffe and I'm also wating to try some Harar Horse. 

I've tried their (Sweet Maria's) sampler packs but most of what I got was from Central and South America.


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## oregonshooter (Aug 27, 2006)

Sub_Umbra said:


> We have a virtually unlimited supply of drinking water. We have a six month supply of food. We have a ten month supply of meds. When we decide to leave *it will be our decision,* not some jerk who has no problem selling us down the river in some lame attempt to save his rinky-dink job.
> 
> The twenty first century is not all *Disney World.*



Unfortunately, if they decide to use force (think it will happen again?) you will leave or be shot for defending your property.

You can't fight an Army. I'm not so sure that our govt. will learn from their disarming and forced removal tactics that went on in Katrina. They haven't learned from the past on any other issues. 

My pref is to BUGOUT to my folks 170 miles away, or to the local woods I hike until I can get there. I don't have anything but $USD in my BOB and the best currency available.... LEAD.


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## TigerhawkT3 (Aug 27, 2006)

Yeah, you might say that lead is both "everywhere you want to be" AND "priceless."


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## TedTheLed (Aug 28, 2006)

well that's depressing -- what are you saying? that you'll hold up people at gunpoint to get what you need? or perhaps you intend to use that lead in the form of bullets for barter??

I would have hoped that we 'volunteers for America' so to speak, could hold the spokes together without violence when the gubmnt can't.. oh well ... I got bullets too, so I don't need anymore, hopefully you'll have something better to offer than lead in exchange for my beans..


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## oregonshooter (Aug 28, 2006)

I was not saying I would hold up people nor meant to imply it. Even if I wanted to, my faith would not allow me.

What would you take for your beans?

I got a load out with an AK-47 300rnds, 1911 with 56 rounds and a lot of training in how to use them. Need added security?


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## TigerhawkT3 (Aug 28, 2006)

TedTheLed said:


> well that's depressing -- what are you saying? that you'll hold up people at gunpoint to get what you need? or perhaps you intend to use that lead in the form of bullets for barter??
> ...


Of course not. At times when it's really, really necessary, lead is priceless. You can't exactly fend off a large group of unwell-wishers with gold.

Since you said that you also have bullets, I would've thought you'd understand what I actually meant, instead of suggesting that I mug people. You couldn't have been more confrontational if you were trying (... were you? :duh2: ).

Please... oh, please... not again!


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## oregonshooter (Aug 28, 2006)

Tiger,
In his defense, I can see where he would get that impression. To illustrate the point of what I was thinking... I worked with a Mormon who had a years supply of food in his basement (do they all do that?) but did not believe in guns.

When SRHTF, people will take what they need. Lead is you only defense against violence and the incidents in the "dome" proved the point well. You take a group of people and make them defenseless and the wolves of society will prey on the defenseless. I fancy myself a "sheepdog" and know for a fact that there will be a lot of sheep with provisions that they can't guard.

Gold won't do them any good, but helping protect what they have is priceless.


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## TedTheLed (Aug 28, 2006)

oy vey 
give me a break you guys. You really think I was reaching? 
" I don't have anything but $USD in my BOB and the best currency available.... LEAD.." --- wait i just checked the thread and oregon is defending me a bit -- so I'll let off on this...

certainly you guys can see how I may have misunderstood.
(plus re: the 'confrontational -- note I didn't quote you every time in my post. I think that would have been more confrontational, and I didn't confront anyway, I even posed my point as a question...) etc ... ok.

SO -- Oregon you say you would barter your ability to provide security -- you have US cash only in your bob..Maybe I can convince you to trade in some of that cash for a few Morgan silver dollars? 

check the for the current price of silver at Silviron's post! Thanks for that Silvy!  :thumbsup:


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## Bright Scouter (Aug 28, 2006)

All the Mormons I know have a years supply of food. One woman I knew well said that between 7 families, they own a portable mill to grind their food. They keep bags of raw wheat, etc. They rotate their stock so when they need more, they buy one and use the oldest bag. Interesting idea. 

But how do you keep it your when everyone living around you knows you have it when they are totally out and starving?


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## REparsed (Aug 28, 2006)

I don't have any gold or silver in my BOB (yet), but when finances will allow I will be adding a little of both. I'll probably get a few Silver Eagles and a couple of those 1/10 ounce US gold Eagles.

For me, gold and silver for a BOB has to be easily recognizable and in a well trusted form. Even something like old US silver coins may not be recognized by some people. 

Coffee and cigarettes might also be good to keep for bartering, cigarettes especially.


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## rscanady (Aug 28, 2006)

Families first. Sometimes hard choices have to be made, but my family comes first, if I think I can help others I will, but if I cant then I wont. It may sound harsh, but that is life.

I would feel bad for those around who aren't prepared, some of it would be by their own doing though. 

Ryan


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## bwaites (Aug 28, 2006)

The LDS faith (mormons) believes strongly in self sufficiency. They aren't hoarding so much as planning for the times when it may be difficult to get commodities for whatever reason.

I live in Central Washington State. In 1980 Mt. St. Helens dumped 4 inches of ash on us. All motorized traffic ground to a halt, as engines seized from the ultra fine particulate. It took a week or two, but we eventually figured out how to make snorkels, multiple step filtration systems, etc. We got things moving again and could get to the store, etc.

The LDS people in our community simply broke out the food storage and went right on with life. They checked on their neighbors to make sure they were OK and fed literally thousands of them one family at a time in their homes for days until traffic returned to some kind of normal state. 

One of my friends used to say that he didn't need to be mormon, he figured out that he just needed to show up at their door hungry and they would feed him! 

I'm with Ted, my dad taught me years ago that you can't eat gold! 

I keep a food supply, not a years worth, but several months. The mormons use theirs to help in times when the breadwinner gets laid off, etc. I've used mine that way. In addition, I keep several days worth of water and have a lake in my back yard. I'm currently exploring the best way to clean and purify the water from the lake.

I do have old solid silver coins for currency as well as a weapon to protect my family. But the truth is I would feed whoever showed up honestly needing food until mine ran out, hoping that by then there would be alternatives.

Bill


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## TedTheLed (Aug 28, 2006)

oh those poor cigarette addicts..you think they would have anything you could use?
matches, maybe...

I don't smoke 'em, but would they keep? They are pretty expensive..
But I dunno, nicotine, it certainly has ALOT of intrinsic value to some people; is it right to take advantage of an addict?

re: people coming to me starving.. guess I'll look into laying in a suppy of "guest" SOS bars, they'll keep you alive, and are better by far than the "Mayday" in my opinion. At least I can give them something.. but I know it's a stop-gap measure, it's not like it's trick-or-treaters at halloween we're talking about..

though it could be..


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## Cliffnopus (Aug 28, 2006)

Gold, diamonds - forget them. Other than a collector, who would know or give you their fair worth ? Nobody. In a SHTF situation you want barter goods, cig's, canned goods, potable water, toilet paper, these are the items which will have _REAL_ barter value.

Cliff


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## oregonshooter (Aug 28, 2006)

TedTheLed said:


> SO -- Oregon you say you would barter your ability to provide security -- you have US cash only in your bob..Maybe I can convince you to trade in some of that cash for a few Morgan silver dollars?



Well, I don't know what one looks like or would be worth, why should I expect anyone else around me to?


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## Joe Talmadge (Aug 28, 2006)

I've read that in previous disasters, items like toilet paper and feminine hygiene products became very high-value barter items. A few months supply of t.p. for barter may not be a bad idea. Not sure if feminine hygiene products eventually expire or not, but they supposedly become even more valuable.


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## REparsed (Aug 28, 2006)

TedTheLed said:


> oh those poor cigarette addicts..you think they would have anything you could use?



Perhaps. Even if they don't have anything I could use, their addiction may motivate them to go out and get it.



TedTheLed said:


> I don't smoke 'em, but would they keep? They are pretty expensive..
> But I dunno, nicotine, it certainly has ALOT of intrinsic value to some people; is it right to take advantage of an addict?



They may keep fo a while if they were vac packed but would it make a difference to an addict? I doubt the smokers would think you were taking advantage of them and the non-smokers would probably be thinking 'Why didn't I think of that?'.


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## Ras_Thavas (Aug 28, 2006)

Well, I have a few 1/10 and 1/5 ounce coins as well as some junk silver, I am not relying on them to be of any use to me.

The type of catastrophe that would have to happen to make the US dollar worthless is pretty much going to be a TEOTWAWKI event. I don't believe gold will do you much good in the initial stages of such an event. If you can't take your gold to the store and buy a can of beans than it is practically worthless to you.

I do see a strong barter economy cropping up amongst the survivors. Say you stored a couple of cases of beans but did not get around to storing some crackers. Along comes someone who has a bunch of crackers but no beans. All that is left is to figure out a good exchange rate.


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## TedTheLed (Aug 28, 2006)

Oregon, you have never seen a Morgan silver dollar?? Maybe you'd recognize it if you saw one, hold on, I'll go get a picture and post it..

EDIT AND NOTE: as I described in a subsequent post I confused my dollar coins, I meant to say the "Peace Dollar" not the Morgan. The Morgan costs more money. Here's what a Peace dollar looks like -- does any one not recognize it?







Cliffno, and Joe, good ideas re: personal hygiene paper products - - but my 'litmus' test has been; will it buy gas at the gas station? (no real logical/practical reason for choosing a gas station, even they'll run out eventually -- just that it seemed to me if it would work there, it would work anywhere..)

How many rolls of 'Scott 1,000 sheets' would it take to fill my tank? Or, I can't resist this one; how many tampons for an oil change? hehe.

OK but seriously, tp must be available in big, tightly wound, economical rolls, no? -- see if I can find some..


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## bwaites (Aug 28, 2006)

Commercial TP is available in rolls that are about 12-18 inches across. It goes in those big dispensers that libraries, stores, gas stations use. 

Not exactly "Charmin" soft, but useable.

Food and fuel, though will be the ultimate exchange items, and beans will be/are the easiest. Rice is probably next. But beans have protein, not just carbs. The south survived the civil war because of beans and peanuts, or so my southern relatives tell me. Even with all the cattle and hogs killed off, they were able to keep a few chickens and grow beans and that gave them enough to survive on.

Bill


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## TedTheLed (Aug 28, 2006)

Correction: OK I'm new to this and got a little confused in the excitement; the silver dollar for $13 I'm talking about is officially called United "States Silver Dollar Circulated (1921-1935)" and are currently going at $13.00 each. Spot cost of silver today is a $12.36 -- check Silvirons post!

The MS65 Morgan dollars are much more money for the numismatic value.

check ths out: http://www.golddealer.com/bullionpage.html

One advantage of numismatic value is that the gvmt doesn't/can't take those away from you when it feels like it -- just bullion, and bullion coins (sales of which are recorded) are liable to that.


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## Stormdrane (Aug 28, 2006)

The only 'gold' in my BOB would be those gold coins with the chocolate in 'em that always show up 'round Christmas. :twothumbs


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## flashlightguy (Aug 28, 2006)

I'll have to throw in my 2 cents worth on this one. I think gold is a good idea if you have all your other bases covered. If you have food, water, weapons, then I'm all for having some gold/cash around. If you look at Iraq, the paper money was worthless after the war. Gold will keep it's value over time.


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## TedTheLed (Aug 28, 2006)

Stormy, 
you shouldn't have divulged that information, especially to me! forget cigarette addicts and starving people, now you're really gonna need your guns!  but have you considered gold chocolate bunnies? :laughing:


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## TedTheLed (Aug 28, 2006)

not the coin I'm recommending but FYI : the fabulous Morgan dollar





*MORGAN DOLLARS PCGS MS-65 GEM UNCIRCULATED $200.00 Each 
20 Or More $190.00 Each 

(remember these are NOT the silver Peace Dollars, see pic in previous post -- which ARE available for $13.00)


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## TigerhawkT3 (Aug 28, 2006)

Stormdrane said:


> The only 'gold' in my BOB would be those gold coins with the chocolate in 'em that always show up 'round Christmas. :twothumbs


I believe you're referring to the "Hannukah gelt" used by us Jews during Hannukah. Traditionally, kids got money gifts ("gelt"), but nowadays that's been replaced by chocolate that looks like money. Yum.

And Ted - sorry, but you did sound pretty confrontational there. If you honestly weren't trying to be, then I apologize. I'm really sorry about that.


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## Sub_Umbra (Aug 28, 2006)

Sub_Umbra said:


> We have a virtually unlimited supply of drinking water. We have a six month supply of food. We have a ten month supply of meds. When we decide to leave it will be our decision, not some jerk who has no problem selling us down the river in some lame attempt to save his rinky-dink job.
> 
> The twenty first century is not all Disney World.
> 
> ...


You have no idea what you are talking about.
[size=+1] _*They did use force.*_[/size] 
I'm not talking about what _I would do,_ I talking about _what I've already done._ There is a difference.

You've completely missed what I said. My whole point is that if you are prepared well enough so you can't be forced into the streets with the fools foraging for water and MREs *you probably won't have to defend you and yours.* In all of the mayhem that went on for six weeks we never had a confrontation with anyone. I most certainly can hide better than anyone can shoot.

For six weeks we had every kind of thug and wacko on the loose around here and we also had every elite MIL and law enforcement unit and every alphabet soup spook was here roaming the streets with all their gear. We had P3 Orions (which have an incredible general surveillance capability in addition to their sub hunting mission) flying around. Any possible use of technology that you may think of in a knee jerk will be something I've been going over for years -- Night Vision, Wall Penetrating Radar, Heat Signature Detection, High Amplification Listening Devices just to name a few. In other threads I've related how I defeated some of these very tools.

The fact is that you don't have to beat _all of them_ -- you only must defeat the ones that are most likely to be used against you. That makes the list very short.

You have also overlooked how much time and resources it actually takes to check *300,000 houses* with these devices. Do the math. Do a Google search for the terms:
"hasty search" katrina
to give yourself just an idea of what a monumental task it to do just the most superficial of searches.

Bear in mind that whatever manpower and techno resources that can be brought to bear will essentially be used to find people who either _want to be found_ or people with a shaky plan who haven't really given this much thought in the first place. Also, to go beyond the 'Hasty Search' to find people like us involves kicking down every door and going through every room. The NOPD was actually so stupid/greedy/(insert your own term here) that they wanted to, but word came down from those who wanted a chance at re-election that they couldn't. If the word hadn't have come down that stopped them they would still be trying to get them all kicked in.

I spent a lot of time working in technical theatre so I also considered the problem in that sense. I came to the conclusion that, like in theatre, I should just try to _give them what they wanted._ They were in a hurry. They wanted _desperately_ to see another empty house so they could move on to thousands and thousands and _still thousands_ of others.

In _theatrical vernacular,_ what I did was *dress* the house, just as one would dress a set to put the right idea into someone's mind. I made it look like _there just couldn't be anyone inside._ (My house was high and dry and undamaged by wind and water.) I did a few very small, quick and easy things that put their heads somewhere else. It is true that it would be very hard for anyone to hide if they had never thought about it or made any preparations to do so. Mrs Umbra and I do not fall into either of those two catagories. On the other hand, if you insist that it can't be done -- I'd feel safe in assuming you can't.

As far as your assertions about defending my house goes you got all of it wrong -- except the fact that I _would_ defend my house. If your idea of defending your house is sitting on a mountain of food with a shotgun in front of your front door -- you will probably have a tough time of it. Note that everyone won't be doing it that way.


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## TedTheLed (Aug 28, 2006)

good as, or better than gold?

Jumbo Toilet Paper 12" 2 Ply Non-Perforated, White 12 Inch Roll 6 per case
$42.33

2000 feet per roll! ...also available in 1000 foot rolls for just $1. more 
:thumbsup:

http://www.bobthejanitor.com/lag--toilet-paper.html

anyone have any experience with this "Windsoft" brand?


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## bwaites (Aug 28, 2006)

As one of the few here who has actually survived the kind of situation discussed here, and not only survived but did so in relative style, SubUmbra's advice and recommendations hold a lot more air here than some of what has been said. 

If I were going to actually go full tilt on the survival issues, I would DEFINITELY listen VERY closely to what he has to say about this kind of a situation, and then would probably implement what he says; after all, his plan worked and pretty much no one elses did!!!

As they say, the proof is in the pudding, or in this case, the hurricane!

Bill


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## Sub_Umbra (Aug 28, 2006)

Jumbo toilet paper? Er...I don't know guys. I like standard sized rolls in water tight cases -- that's how I've got mine. They are cheap and easy to buy, easy to store and use, and they are in packages small enough that I may give or barter them away without much thought.


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## oregonshooter (Aug 28, 2006)

Sub,

Chill out! Your post did nothing but back up what I said, as you DID NOT defend your house. You hid, which is the better of the two. If you had been found and they wanted you gone, you would be gone.

So how deep is your bunker? LOL


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## TedTheLed (Aug 28, 2006)

Sububy, 

so you feel I shouldn't go for the 2000' foot rolls, the St. Gaudens coin of TP so to speak, but rather the smaller more compact and tradable 1/10 ounce Golden Eagle equivalents, which would be? Scott? Charmin? or any favorites?

Maybe this needs a whole new topic in CAFE; "whats your favorite TP?" ?? :gin2:

I missed your post while I was looking for the toilet paper pics, but have since read it. 

So -- is it a trade secret, or how do you make your house look un-lived in?


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## bwaites (Aug 28, 2006)

oregonshooter,

The BEST defense is not having to provide any!

*FINAL* defense is contact. If they don't know you are there, and don't harm or take anything, that is the ultimate defense, and Sub is an expert!

As far as him chilling out, the people who have survived this kind of stuff tend to take it a bit more seriously than you and I; and I, for one, appreciate his no nonsense attitude. It's the difference between living and dying, or in this case, leaving, sometimes.

His experiences and solutions are invaluable. 

It is better to have someone not know you are there than otherwise. 

On top of that, he not only made people miss him, but made them miss him while he had adequate supplies to survive long term. Think of the storage requirements, equipment and fuel requirements, and so on, and how you would camoflage all of that!

He's so far past the survivalists who say things like, "Gimme my gun and a few hunnerd rounds and us boys'll be jest fine!" that it isn't even the same planet. He planned and executed his plan to perfection. I'll take his advice on anything like this!

Bill


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## TedTheLed (Aug 28, 2006)

I read over the posts twice, I'm confused,

Subumby, could you please explain for the retard in me; 

this occured during Katrina in New Orleans - right?
the police/military were looking for flood 'survivors' to ostensibly help them out?
(sop was to bring them to a camp?)
you made your house look vacated, but were still nearby or inside when the cops came?

? thanks.


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## TigerhawkT3 (Aug 28, 2006)

I may not know much, but I definitely know that I wouldn't enjoy having to use gold in a situation where TP would have been ideal! 

I was just reminded of this one Wile E. Coyote cartoon where he's in the desert and finds a gold nugget. Someone (the Road Runner, probably - I don't remember) wants to sell him a single glass of water in exchange for the entire gold nugget. W.E. Coyote resists until the heat is too unbearable, and then buys the glass of water. As he tilts it to his mouth, it starts to rain - and by rain, I mean three feet of water in a few seconds! Do you know what he says? It was something like:

"Well, I really got my money's worth!"

Murphy's Law as usual for poor W.E.C., but that phrase at the end shows amazing maturity of thought for an animated coyote.


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## Sub_Umbra (Aug 28, 2006)

oregonshooter said:


> So how deep is your bunker? LOL


I could tell you, but then...you know. Actually, the bunker is above sea level. In six weeks we will be moving ~1 block to a location that is...wait for it...on ground ~2 inches higher than where we are right now. Now THAT place is a BUNKER. (We've been calling it that for months) 


TedTheLed said:


> Sububy,
> 
> so you feel I shouldn't go for the 2000' foot rolls, the St. Gaudens coin of TP so to speak, but rather the smaller more compact and tradable 1/10 ounce Golden Eagle equivalents, which would be? Scott? Charmin? or any favorites?


TTL, you are a funny man. The humble Scott (in white, of course) will be the new _Coin of the Realm._ Those jumbos are ok but, hey, you don't want to be trading a Krugerand for a potato, right? 


TedTheLed said:


> ...So -- is it a trade secret, or how do you make your house look un-lived in?


I actually have pics of one of the tricks I used and if I get a minute I could put them up on a page to see. I'll try. It would be different for each house as you must work with what you have (_your_ house)...and some of it has to be very subtle. If I do put it up I expect some won't ever get it no matter how well I explain it. That part is all about theatre. _High Theatre._ I'll try to put something up.


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## TedTheLed (Aug 28, 2006)

:laughing:

to be clear; I posted the laughing in reaction to Tiger's coyote story, Sub's post beat me to it!

oh, and pics of the 'altered' house would be cool.. ! thanks!

(I'm imagining like cobwebs and the furniture covered with sheets, dirty beer bottles so old they've lost their odor..?)


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## TigerhawkT3 (Aug 28, 2006)

Hey Ted - my "inner retard" agrees with yours! :laughing:

It sounds like he "weathered" (sorry, bad pun) Katrina. That's impressive!


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## oregonshooter (Aug 28, 2006)

Sub,

I congratulate you on staying undetected. My point was that if you are detected, guns will not help. You can't fight the National Guard and expect to win.

So if you had to defend you house against a mandated removal attempt, do agree with this or do you think they would just go away after you shot at a few?

What was your plan in a scenario like that? I'd really like to know. If you don't want it in the open PM/email me if you like.



> You have no idea what you are talking about.
> They did use force.
> I'm not talking about what I would do, I talking about what I've already done. There is a difference.



Just to clarify, they did not use force on you correct?


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## TigerhawkT3 (Aug 28, 2006)

oregonshooter said:


> ...
> Just to clarify, they did not use force on you correct?


From what I gather, no, it did not come to that. Sub_Umbra was INVISIBLE like a NINJA!  ...

CPF totally needs a ninja smiley.

And a pirate smiley, too, while we're at it.


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## Sub_Umbra (Aug 29, 2006)

oregonshooter said:


> Just to clarify, they did not use force on you correct?


That's correct. No one knew I was there until I decided that things had calmed down enough to make my presence known. After a few weeks I talked with members of the 82nd Airborn, Homeland Security (ICE), LA State Troopers and US Marshals almost every day.

While my main concern was keeping out of the sight of the NOPD, looters, thugs and just crazy folk who had ran out of their anti-psychotic meds, I realized early on that it could be very dangerous to suprise a Seal team, for example. We went out of our way to avoid everyone for that reason. I've covered this in other threads so I won't make some read it YET AGAIN.

As bwaites said, I do take this very seriously and admittedly I am probably in a strange place on this. It comes from my background and my personality. It works for me -- what can I say? It's about where I come from.

As far as my references to defense goes, no, I'm not going to fight the ARMY. The many aspects of defense connected to this topic are not suitable for discussion on an open forum IMO, other than to say that I was totally serious and it is a very important topic.


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## Sub_Umbra (Aug 29, 2006)

TedTheLed said:


> this occured during Katrina in New Orleans - right?
> the police/military were looking for flood 'survivors' to ostensibly help them out?
> (sop was to bring them to a camp?)
> you made your house look vacated, but were still nearby or inside when the cops came?
> ...


Yes. New Orleans -- Katrina and the six week aftermath.

This is a complex subject. Forgive me. There are already many good books out.

About camps... Not really, but sort of. My point is more that when you leave you stop making your own decisions. I felt that the various governments would be so inept as to accidently *KILL PEOPLE* that they were evacing until they learned how to do it. I was right on the money. You must, at the very least, have what it takes to hold out on your own *until systems can be set up that resupply and evac people without killing them.* I'm not kidding one bit. If you or any of yours are young, old or sick or disabled it's even worse. 

I'm not blaming ANY government. This can never be fixed with more money. No one can take care of you and yours better than *you* can. The rest is crap. I'm not just talking hurricanes. Life is messy.

Another thing that most are unaware of: In a disaster in the States don't count on there being any citizens. After Katrina there were only *Aid Workers* and *Victims.* Period. When you leave (or are taken) from your house you become a *victim.* All decisions will be made for you. Where and when you go, when you eat and sleep, etc. Many citizens were rounded up at gunpoint and herded at gunpoint to places where they were held at gunpoint until they could be moved farther and farther away from the scene of the disaster. This sometimes took days and days (oh yeah, at gunpoint) and meant being locked up in pens in numorous locations until the bumping and grinding _finally_ got them far enough away (hundreds of miles) that they could be cut loose and *finally regain the rights as citizens and humans * that they had probably never thought about much before.

Some will say that this is crap. It is not. I personally know a *great many* people who were evaced by force. The word is out. Don't believe me. I even know a carreer Law Enforcement professional who got swept up into the scene I just discribed. New Orleans is nutz, but don't kid yourselves -- this could happen anywhere. Well anywhere but Utah, I think. 

Yeah, I'm extreme on this. Especially with people like CPFers. People who are way out in front ahead of everyone when it comes to being prepared. My whole deal for myself and my wife is that I can *always take better care of us than any government* -- and I refuse to surrender any control of my own life.

So, no, there aren't really any camps -- the way you would normally think of them. It was a kind of a broad, highfallootin' word for me to use but I think it helped me get the real message across.

Look into it. I hope this windy answer clears up something for someone.

Thanks for reading,
Sub


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## bwaites (Aug 29, 2006)

As always, Sub, it's not windy, it's right on the money. Even in Utah bad things happen, although they do take the emergency preparedness thing a little more seriously than most.

Congrats on your success!

Bill


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## Sub_Umbra (Aug 29, 2006)

TedTheLed said:


> ...oh, and pics of the 'altered' house would be cool.. ! thanks!
> 
> (I'm imagining like cobwebs and the furniture covered with sheets, dirty beer bottles so old they've lost their odor..?)


Here you go:

http://www.cotse.net/users/legion59/cpf/lock/a.html

Aside from theatre I've had other jobs where I was paid to hide things or make them dissapear in plain sight. It was all legal (in the States) but sometimes very serious. Now I'm a homemaker. 

I made the page not because what I did was brilliant -- it was simple. I did it to make people think about what they have to work with. Your plan should cover as much as it can... Think about your own situation and what kind of _force multipliers_ you can come up with for your own family.


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## TigerhawkT3 (Aug 29, 2006)

Personally, I think that


Sub_Umbra said:


> ...
> My whole deal for myself and my wife is that I can *always take better care of us than any government*
> *...*


is correct because individuals only have to look out for a few people, but a government has to look out for very many. It's sort of like customer service - a company might not catch the occasional problem on its own, but individual customers sure will. (This is totally regardless of what the government/company actually DOES about the problems of its citizens/customers. That's different and not what I'm talking about.  )


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## TedTheLed (Aug 29, 2006)

verrry interesting! you sure fooled 'em. (now I'm a little sorry you divulged the secret.) what in the world could you do 'next time' that would work that well? (don't tell me.  ) 

my house is almost entirely glass, you can look in and see everything. I think if there have been any potential intruders, they looked in on my squalor and decided no one lived here either! :laughing:

btw I didn't mean anything negative by use of the term "camp." In a fact I worked at a "Cuban 'Refugee' Camp" -- 1980 in Wisconsin, they flew and bussed fives of thousands of 'boat people' from Miami to Fort McCoy,Sparta, where we took pretty good care of 'em, hot meals 3x a day, beds in the barracks, there was even a shipment of color TV's but most of em disappeared before they were installed in the barracks. Fema has a problem with TV sets.. :shakehead

(ps maybe you could post links to other threads with more of your story? )


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## Sub_Umbra (Aug 29, 2006)

TedTheLed said:


> ...(ps maybe you could post links to other threads with more of your story? )


Here's a few:
http://candlepowerforums.com/vb/showpost.php?p=1118246&postcount=103
http://candlepowerforums.com/vb/showpost.php?p=1137399&postcount=38
Aside from the last post there is more info on Night Vision compatible lights in the rest of that thread.

These threads answer some common Nuts and Bolts questions:
http://candlepowerforums.com/vb/showpost.php?p=1392452&postcount=17
http://candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=121453
http://candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=121257
http://candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=116192


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## js (Aug 29, 2006)

Sub,

Fantastic stuff as usual. Thank you for your well thought out, experienced, informative posts. Continue to take care of you and yours, my friend. I love the "locked from the outside" trick. Simple and brilliant and effective.

As for gold not having any inherent worth, that's just plain wrong. However, in the panic and confusion and chaos of an imminent emergency or disaster, obviously you can't eat gold, or wipe your *** with it (not comforatbly, anyhow. LOL).

So both things are true. BUT, the point about having gold or better yet, "junk" silver coins, is that they retain their value in the event of an economic crisis. Obviously, if the economic crisis is severe enough, then you slide into a disaster situation/emergency, but even so, long term, precious metals represent an investment that cannot become worthless overnight. You will most likely not get rich from these investments, but they are a good idea nonetheless. And gold stocks or portfolios are something to consider as well--as these have more components to them than just actual precious metal holdings.

Still, suit yourself. Don't like gold, don't get gold. But if you really want to be prepared for a real disaster, you have to do A LOT of work and preparation at all levels, as sub umbra has done. It's really a lifestyle. It's serious. It's hard core. It's so much more than having a bug out bag.

Me, right now I'm not in a position to do it, nor do I really want to go to that level of preparedness right now. If something big goes down where I live, I will probably be a victem, unfotunately. But in life, you have to choose your battles and your priorities and take the consequences.


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## europium (Aug 29, 2006)

Just my 2 cents: 

Fancy stuff like gold, silver, diamonds, etc., are really only valuable as portable currency when you move from a disaster area to a non-disaster area. If the U.S. becomes unsafe, I wonder where you might go to get full value for your gold.

If the entire area you are going to have to survive in is a disaster area, then basic staples will have the most barter value.

In addition to the items mentioned here, other barterable 'commodities' would include first aid supplies: bandages, bactine, aspirin, cold medicine, rubbing alcohol, peroxide, et cetera, et cetera.

Also, water purification kits!

Tobacco would be just as dangerous to possess as narcotics. Addicts will plunder and kill for their fix, as daily stories from America's inner cities testify.


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## Cliffnopus (Aug 29, 2006)

Sub_Umbra said:


> I actually have pics of one of the tricks I used and if I get a minute I could put them up on a page to see. I'll try. It would be different for each house as you must work with what you have (_your_ house)...and some of it has to be very subtle. If I do put it up I expect some won't ever get it no matter how well I explain it. That part is all about theatre. _High Theatre._ I'll try to put something up.


Sub, I for one, would love to see what elements you used to disguise the fact that the house wasn't empty. I think that'd be a great learning experience and I have to agree with your postings - much better to be on your own.

Also, did you ever run into any other folks who were "one their own" in your area ??

Cliff


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## Sub_Umbra (Aug 29, 2006)

europium said:


> Just my 2 cents:
> 
> Fancy stuff like gold, silver, diamonds, etc., are really only valuable as portable currency when you move from a disaster area to a non-disaster area. If the U.S. becomes unsafe, I wonder where you might go to get full value for your gold...


Folks with gold, diamonds, etc in the BOB are probably not always thinking about getting 'full value' for the gold. Many in the past have bought a potato with a gold coin or a diamond. These valuable, easy to carry and hide items have the potential to give you something _better than full value._ Maybe you could convince a gas station to pick YOU as the one to sell his last two gallons of gas to for your gold. Maybe you and your's could then live another day....



Cliffnopus said:


> Sub, I for one, would love to see what elements you used to disguise the fact that the house wasn't empty. I think that'd be a great learning experience and I have to agree with your postings - much better to be on your own.
> 
> Also, did you ever run into any other folks who were "one their own" in your area ??
> 
> Cliff


Here is _one_ of the tricks I used:


Yes, there were a few others, but not many when you consider the population pre-K. According to the Mayor there were only 400 people in town three weeks later when Rita rolled through. Of course, he also said that there was not one murder in the six weeks that followed Katrina -- and reasoned estimates run somewhere around 250 actual murders in the six weeks post-K. Time will tell.


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## bwaites (Aug 29, 2006)

If you are REALLY worried, there are few other tricks:

Install your outside doors backwards, so that they open OUT. This provides significantly more security. You MUST, of course, find hinges that will allow you to do so, but they are available. I can kick in almost ANY exterior home door in use today within 30 seconds, (I'm 6'3" and > 250 lbs) but reversing the door makes that virtually impossible if you use a steel core door. 

Prepare your doors to accept both inside and outside bolts/locks so that you can create the "locked from the outside look" even on normal doors.

Do the same with window shutters. 

Make all exterior entry points as NOISY to enter as possible. This gives you warning if you are inside, and gives neighbors warning if you aren't there.

Just a few.

Bill

PS I'm copying those threads as the beginning of a "disaster survical notebook"!


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## TedTheLed (Aug 29, 2006)

btw I asked at the pharmacy what they would take in barter. The pharmacist was busy but his wife said 'no' to gold, and 'yes' to food...

I'll ask Mr. pharmacist later, he may have a different preference...

and she did say she would come into work in bugout conditions and dispense what she could..

actually bringing up the whole subject made her very uncomfortable, and I said 'nevermind if you don't want to think about it' .. understandable.. it is strange to bring up the subject in the smoothly running peaceful atmosphere of an operating business, kind of like hearing someone mention a 'bomb' while on line at the airport..


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## Wolfen (Aug 29, 2006)

Fellow forumites, one must put all thoughs of independent action aside during times of crisis. Uncle Sam AKA "The Nanny" will instruct you on what to do and where to go. So forfeit your constitutional rights and do what Uncle "The Nanny" Sam says. It's for the best...it really is.


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## TigerhawkT3 (Aug 29, 2006)

Wolfen said:


> ...
> "The Nanny"...
> "The Nanny"...
> ...


Just so long as he doesn't sound anything like Fran Drescher. :laughing:


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## Sub_Umbra (Aug 29, 2006)

TedTheLed said:


> ...my house is almost entirely glass, you can look in and see everything. I think if there have been any potential intruders, they looked in on my squalor and decided no one lived here either!


TTL,

I've been thinking about your glass house. That is a challenge -- particularly since I haven't seen it. Think about this, for an opening gambit:

I don't know if you have a garage but here's how you start the illusion: make your car visible. If you have a garage -- close the door. Visualize that something is wrong and you are in your car, racing home to protect your family. THAT'S HOW YOU WANT TO PARK YOUR CAR. Nothing too cute, but how would you cruise up to your house at the highest possible speed and screech to a halt, slightly askew, as close to the door as possible? Forget the driveway -- something is going on and your family is inside and in danger! This should all be very visible as one would approach the house. 

OK. First take the keys out. Next, LEAVE THE DRIVER'S DOOR OPEN. That's it for this gag.

It's powerful because to any passersby it screams that during the emergency there was _another emergency_ at your house. You rushed home, jumped out of the car (leaving the door open)...and never came back. Is everyone in the house dead? Are the people who killed them still there? Surely there can't be anything worth looting inside if the occupants have already been killed. You almost never see a car door left open in real life.

The car door left open is extremely powerful in it's imagery and it's usually only used in Sci-Fi disasters about after the bomb has dropped. I saw a car that was abandoned *so quickly* that the driver's door was still open after Katrina...very powerful. Most will just back up and get away from it. I would.

You might be able to build on that with a second scene for those who venture closer to your glass house...

It's just theatre. You put it into their heads and they'll beleive it. This is just an exercise. It may all be wrong but this is the way you have to think to really fool people.


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## Icebreak (Aug 30, 2006)

TedTheLed -

Interesting subject/thread. I've been reading it since you first posted it.

Do you think the 1/10 oz Canadian Gold Maple might be a better bartering commodity in SHTF scenarios than the US 1/10 oz Golden Eagle due to the Gold Maple being 24kt as opposed to the Golden Eagle being 22kt? Or, if the SHTF scenario took place in the US the Golden Eagle would be a better barter commodity due to the traditionally dim view of Canadian nickles by US citizens?

I'm thinking the US coin would be better for me because I live in the US. The question comes up because I've been lightly researching the issue since I read your first post.

I was speaking with a co-worker about gold yesterday. He follows almost all markets closely. He mentioned something I found to be interesting. I think a Fist Full of Dollars would be good to have. I don't remember much about that Clint Eastwood movie except that he used gold coins as buttons on his shirt. When he got into a jam or really needed something he would cut a button off.

Tangenting now...I won't own a blazer/sports jacket with gold buttons. They must be dark buttons. Now I'm thinking Clint might have been on to something. A dark blue blazer with real gold coin buttons on the sleeves. Where best to hide your diamonds than in the chandelier in the entryway? Where best to hide some of your gold than on the sleeves of a jacket not many people want to wear?


OT?

Sub_Umbra -

I took notice of the drab green screen used behind the shutters. I lived in an apartment on the second floor of a apt complex way back. It had the standard sliding glass door to the tiny balcony. The balcony had a frame with slats. I wanted to be able to leave the curtains open but not allow people on the ground to be able to see through the slats and through the sliding glass door. BUT...not make it obvious. So I tacked two layers of charcoal grey screen to cover the space between the slats so it just looked like shadow. Worked great.

Like most modern vehicles, my truck has tinted glass. Sometimes I just put a ball cap on the top of the back of the passenger seat. Its amazing what it looks like from 280 degrees in the dark. One is a less tasty target than none. Two is a less tasty target than one.

I've read most of your posts on making it through extremely adverse conditions in a metropolitan environment. What about condensation on windows revealing humans present in the abode?

RainX? De-humidifiers?

On interior atmosphere, did you use special filters for the HVAC?


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## TedTheLed (Aug 30, 2006)

Icey, thanks very much for posting that about the Maple Leafs (Leaves?) -- 

I have been checking them out for a couple minutes and have discovered that although the FRACTIONAL ounce Maple coins are relatively much more expensve than the Eagle coins, the ounce Maples are the SAME or $5 LESS than the Eagles!! -- yet contain more gold -- even the golddealer website says they are the most highly recignzed and sought after gold bullion coin of
all.. if I had bought a bunch of ounce Eagles and then saw those Maples for less $ I'd ave pooped my pants! -- Thanks!!

as you can see the fractional ounce Maples are way more expensive than the fractional ounce Eagles -- yet the ounce price is less than the Eagle!!?? Think they made a deal?? ---- wait a minute! --- I jus tchecked the golddealer and the Eagle ounce has been replaced wit that Buffalo coin for $635 ! The ounce Maple is now $5 less than the Eagle -- golddealer says "to call" for fractional prices of the Maple leaf, so maybe their prices are lower than these from the website you lister (above) ?

"..The (Maple Leaf) coin is offered in 1/20 oz, 1/10 oz, 1/4 oz, 1/2 oz, and 1 oz denominations and is guaranteed to contain the stated amount (in troy ounces) of .9999 fine gold (24 karat). The coins have legal tender status in Canada, but as is often the case with bullion coins, the face values of these coins (C$5, C$10, C$20 and C$50) are purely symbolic and do not reflect their true value. At current market value the coins are worth and sell for about $89, $204, $394, and $754 USD respectively.."

In fact, at this moment I am thinking of forgetting about gold and getting a stash of silver US "Peace dollars" -- for $13.00 each at the moment...

http://www.golddealer.com/bullionpage.html


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## Sub_Umbra (Aug 30, 2006)

Icebreak said:


> ...I've read most of your posts on making it through extremely adverse conditions in a metropolitan environment. What about condensation on windows revealing humans present in the abode?
> 
> RainX? De-humidifiers?
> 
> On interior atmosphere, did you use special filters for the HVAC?


Hey Icebreak-

The green stuff was some bug netting my wife stapled up -- it was kind of ratty by the time we took the pics.

We were lucky we didn't have a condensation problem. Also, it is a very traditional house and with those shutters you can never see any of the windows. So many houses in New Orleans used to be equipped with those same cyprus shutters that some have said that it was a great deterrent to street crime because it's so easy to see out of the house that anyone on the street would never know if they were being watched or not. It is almost impossible to see in through the shutters in the daytime and if you manage your lights, the same is true at night. It's really cool.

About the condensation... If I were in a location where it would be a problem I would sure want it in my plan ahead of time. Since I wouldn't be able to count on having power it sounds like a real challenge.

I'd be tempted to try one of those window washing solutions formulated specifically to stop condensation from forming on the inside of small airplane windows.

A better but more expensive solution would probably be some dedicated way to keep the air moving, but that sounds like it could be pretty complex and expensive if you also need it even when the power is out.

That is really a tough one.


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## ledlurker (Sep 2, 2006)

Another thing that I feel your bug out bag should have is several 30 minute prepaid phone cards, they weigh almost nothing. If the event is not very bad then phone service will most likely work. and they will make great trade bait. I have used my prepaid phone cards to also make local calls when my cell is down.


BTW, has anybody else check out the basic 72 hour 2 person bug out bags that can be purchased at your local Red Cross chapter? My only and biggest dislike about them is that they arer red and have a red cross on them. I told the office personnel that you might as well hang a sign on a person that says "mob me". My advise is to go buy your own back pack an transfer the contents.


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## Sub_Umbra (Sep 3, 2006)

ledlurker said:


> Another thing that I feel your bug out bag should have is several 30 minute prepaid phone cards, they weigh almost nothing. If the event is not very bad then phone service will most likely work. and they will make great trade bait. I have used my prepaid phone cards to also make local calls when my cell is down....


Good idea. I also have the access number and PIN entered into my watch. One thing, though. Be sure your calling cards access numbers begin with *800.* After Katrina I ran into people who had cards with local access numbers _that were either *blocked* or were unuseable for some other reason._ I didn't run into anyone who had any trouble with cards using an 800 number.

We had ~$50 in quarters going into it to which was a lifesaver.


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## z96Cobra (Sep 3, 2006)

TedTheLed said:


> When we both meet at the 'gas station' and I offer a tenth ounce gold coin for a tank of gas. and you offer feathers, or diamonds, (who knows what they're worth?) *who do you think is going to drive away?*
> 
> (of course you might use the feathers to fly away..  )



Me, 'cause I'll be packin' some lead!  I'd also like to think that my morals/faith/upbringing would keep me from using a gun to steal from someone, but in times like you describe, who knows what will happen if it ever gets that bad. I know I would use it for self/family defense, and I hope that is all I'll ever need it for (hopefully I wouldn't even need it for that either). We have some cattle, goats, and horses, so we should be OK on food for a while, and our farm has 1/4 mile of river frontage, so water shouldn't be a problem either, unless it gets contaminated. Our water comes from a natural spring, so hopefully that would be good even longer than the river.

When it comes to survival, not too many people would be able to "keep the faith" and not do *whatever* it takes to survive.

Roger


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## MicroE (Sep 3, 2006)

ledlurker said:


> Another thing that I feel your bug out bag should have is several 30 minute prepaid phone cards.....



That's an excellent idea. Just make sure that you buy cards that do not expire with time. Some phone cards, like gift cards, expire slowly over a matter of months.


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## ledlurker (Sep 3, 2006)

I have a 7 year old AT&T 1-800 one that I have refilled a total of 5 times. I keep expecting it to expire.

Like anything else, you might have to rotate. We currently do not have long distance phone service. In stead of spending $20 a month for the average long distance service, we just buy a 600 minute AT&T card which will last any where from 3 to 6 months. I even have a teleconference card which has been handy in family legal discussions.


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## TedTheLed (Sep 4, 2006)

gold's up $19.00 an ounce -- :shrug: perhaps 3% isn't that much of a move for gold..? ? ?


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## NeonLights (Sep 4, 2006)

TedTheLed said:


> gold's up $19.00 an ounce -- :shrug: perhaps 3% isn't that much of a move for gold..? ? ?


 Up 3% since when? I seem to recall hearing that long-term gold has averaged just under 4% per year. Almost as much as inflation. 

-Keith


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## TedTheLed (Sep 4, 2006)

NeonLights said:


> Up 3% since when? I seem to recall hearing that long-term gold has averaged just under 4% per year. Almost as much as inflation.
> 
> -Keith



sorry, I meant the price to buy an ounce bullion coin; the gold eagle, went up from $630 to $649 at golddealer.com since last week -- the 1/10 ounce went from $70 to $71...


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## twentysixtwo (Sep 4, 2006)

Gold as an investment is pretty dicey.

As something for a BOB, I think I'd rather have $500 of stuff like lights, lithium batteries, magnesium firestarters, MRE's, knives, etc than $500 of gold.

Of course if anyone wants to donate some for my BOB, I'd be happy to hold onto it.


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## TedTheLed (Jul 21, 2007)

fyi update:

when this thread was opened nearly a year ago gold was $622. an ounce,

it's $710. an ounce now.. and $15 of that rise has been in the past few weeks..

(those 1/10 ounce bullion coins were $70, now $76.00)


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## oregonshooter (Jul 21, 2007)

But it still is worthless when you need food and the other guy needs ammo.


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## Meeshi_ma (Jul 21, 2007)

Reading back through this I kept thinking that I can't think of many situations where gold (or silver) would make a better trade commodity than cash.

Most people envision their BoBs as a short term supply to either get them through an emergency or to get them to another place (where more things are cached). Regardless of WHAT happened (earthquake, tornado, A-bomb, etc), in the SHORT term, most people are expecting it to be eventually resolved. And by "resolved", they're thinking that everything will get fixed and go back to the way it was before (meaning that dollar bills will still be worth roughly $1 each). The only time that I see gold or silver coming into play is in the long term where it would be generally recognized that your dollars no longer have value. If you think about it, when's the last time you saw the gold or silver that your dollar is supposed to represent? (Not that it really does anymore of course, that went out years ago). People take the value of money on trust. They expect a certain amount of buying power to be there per bill, regardless of whether it's actually backed up by gold or not. 

That trust tends to last even after the reason for it is gone. I'd imagine that even in a complete disaster, dollar bills would still have a recognized value for quite some time - it would take a while for the intrinsic value change to trickle down to everyone.

So sure, cache gold somewhere safe if you like, but in this age of computerized money (credit, debit, etc) most people think of Franklin's and Grant's as being HARD currency. More importantly, keep a stash of tradeable good (with immediate values unlike gold) on hand - things that can be separated out into discrete packages for trade. It won't take too long before packages of spaghetti, fresh batteries, or even individual cigarettes (and no - I don't smoke either) become very valuable.

Although, as I think about it - those types of things will initially have a wildly fluctuating value - if looting is rampant, everyone who wants cigarettes will have them... I think I'll stick to cash in the small bag (as far as trade goods go - I already have spare batteries ).

Anyway - this is a good thread - fun to see how different people prepare for things. :twothumbs

-Brian


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## Sub_Umbra (Jul 22, 2007)

Meeshi_ma said:


> Reading back through this I kept thinking that I can't think of many situations where gold (or silver) would make a better trade commodity than cash...


That's true. The problem is that while those situations may be _rare_ they are also somewhat universal in their nature -- having happened in many different places and throughout man's entire existance. The odds are definately with those who decide they'll never need it. And yet....


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## Meeshi_ma (Jul 22, 2007)

The main plus for gold is to impress someone with a ready supply of something valuable - I'm coming back to the earlier argument of it perhaps tipping the scale to get you those last couple of gallons of gas. Alright, sure - you can flash a couple of ounces of sparkly stuff at the gas station attendant and hope he goes for the novelty. If he bothers to think it through, the only reason that the gold has value to him (can't eat it after all) is that he's betting that someone else will trade him for it - either cash later on or a further trade.

I can't remember the last time that I paid cash for gasoline. I know that some places give a slight discount for doing so, but they aren't around my area, so it hasn't come up. Its just so much more convenient to carry and use credit/debit cards that we all do it. If you've got a ready supply of cash in your bag, you'd get much the same reaction from the attendant by flashing $200 as a couple of small gold coins - besides, if the computers are all down, no one can use their credit cards anyway - so they're all stuck (or more likely getting out and stealing gas).

It would be interesting to see which would motivate people more - cash, gold, or usable items. It would depend on how far ahead the person was thinking I guess - short term emergency - cash or gold; long term - personal survival stuff.

Honestly, it would probably come down to the guy in the back of the line with the gun getting the gas AND taking your gold...

Oh well - here's hoping we never have to find out.

-Brian


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## TedTheLed (Jul 22, 2007)

of course you should always back up your gold with a supply of the good stuff;



TedTheLed said:


> good as, or better than gold?
> 
> Jumbo Toilet Paper 12" 2 Ply Non-Perforated, White 12 Inch Roll 6 per case
> $42.33
> ...


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## thesurefire (Jul 22, 2007)

Not in the BOB, but I do have some silver rounds.

I read once the fact that in and around 1900, an ounce of gold was worth about the same amount as a really nice suit. Now 110 years later, the same holds true. 2 world wars and the great depression didn’t change that. I think gold and silver will hold their value. Just in case not, I still have dollars and stock euros. I encourage everyone to have at least 100 euros in a safe somewhere.

Another image that I won’t soon forget is a restaurant sign that’s been passed down through generations in my family. It reads ‘Steak, fries, choice of veggie, choice of drink, 25 cents’ Just a reminder of inflation.


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## InTheDark (Jul 25, 2007)

Where is a good place to buy gold or silver bullion coins, preferably in the southern california area? I went to a couple of local coin places to inquire about buying eagles or krugerrands, and they didn't seem all that helpful. In fact, they were pretty rude about it, one of them repeatedly mentioned that they don't really want the business as they don't make much money selling bullion coins, and the other one just ignored me after they found out what I was looking for. I guess since they're aren't rare $10K coins, they dont' really take that kind of purchase seriously.


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## Bogie (Jul 25, 2007)

I deal with APMEX and Lone Star Silver but if you go to Gold is Money they have a Dealer Feedback area for online merchants.


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## thesurefire (Jul 25, 2007)

I've dealt with APMEX and everything went well.


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## TedTheLed (Jul 25, 2007)

free shipping on $2000 purchase;

http://www.golddealer.com/bullionpage.html

all types of bullion,

"..Free Shipping and Best Price Guarantee! For those using the mail our minimum bullion order is $2000 and we pay shipping and insurance. There are no added commissions and you can mix products. CNI Business Hours: Monday-Friday 9:00 AM to 5:00 PM (PST). 

A bank wire is the fastest way to receive your order and is required if your invoice exceeds $15,000.00. A cashier's check is held for 2 weeks and a personal check for 3 weeks. Each type of check must be cleared and new bank privacy rules make this process difficult. We apologize for the inconvenience and suggest that if this check holding period is not satisfactory please consider a bank wire.
California Numismatic Investments is one of America's largest dealers in precious metals. With annual sales exceeding 80 million dollars, we deliver the finest quality standard in the industry. Your satisfaction is guaranteed and backed with 25 years of investor service..."

suggest you read this thread from the beginning. good luck.


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## BillBond (Jul 28, 2007)

My Dad is big into gold and silver.
So he gave me some.
I sold it and bought some Glock 19's to put in my BOB.


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## FASTCAR (Jul 29, 2007)

Wow, my grandfather always talked about paper not being worth sh*t.
He always talked about metal keeping value.He said in the 20s he kept the house and property because he had " the metal".

When he passed we got quite a bit of gold and silver.

I am 2 lazy to go back and see who started this thread.You hit the nail on the head.


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## Gimpy00Wang (Jul 29, 2007)

I know I'm late to the party, but great, great feedback Sub_Umbra.

- Chris


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## TedTheLed (Feb 29, 2008)

...well, those 1/10 oz gold eagles are now $107..!

they have 'back-dated' silver dollars for sale now; meaning any date but the current year, for $1.60 over spot. (they appear to be uncirculated too) at CNI.


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## Sub_Umbra (Mar 1, 2008)

TedTheLed said:


> ...well, those 1/10 oz gold eagles are now $107..!
> 
> they have 'back-dated' silver dollars for sale now; meaning any date but the current year, for $1.60 over spot. (they appear to be uncirculated too) at CNI.


Wow, $1.60 over spot seems like as good a deal as can be had. Amazing...


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## Jay R (Mar 2, 2008)

Coming in a bit late to this thread but...
I went through a phase when I was younger when I had a lot of incoming money and very little outgoing expenses. I spent all my spare money on the latest 'stuff' that, a few years later, wan't worth a tenth of what I paid for it. I realised this and decided to start collecting gold as a hobby on the grounds that it would still be worth something later on. I bought about half collectors coins and half bullion in the late 90's. It cost me around £120 oz and I spent around £5,000 over about two years. Cost now just short of £500 oz. Not a bad return over 10 years but not exceptional. The collector coins have gone up a higher percentage value.
The point is, I still have them and It'll probably help towards a nice house deposit for my 1 year old son when he grows up.

As for putting gold or silver in your emergency pack, I'd think it would be fairly pointless. Either the disaster is bad enough that everyone is in the same boat so who would want your metal coins when they need food and medicine. Or, the disaster is localised, in which case you can still use money to get what you need, you may just have to pay more for it.


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## Jay R (Mar 2, 2008)

Of course, if you want to put something in your emergency pack that really would be tradeable in an emergency, some wind up torches would be the thing. A week on from the power going out, how many people will have used up their batteries, candles, etc...


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## Sub_Umbra (Mar 2, 2008)

Jay R said:


> Of course, if you want to put something in your emergency pack that really would be tradeable in an emergency, some wind up torches would be the thing. A week on from the power going out, how many people will have used up their batteries, candles, etc...


I dunno, I've kind of got this gut feeling that most folks left in the dark won't have thought enough about it to have much of anything I would want to trade for.

I stock a few lights for close neighbors to help keep them from burning me out and I also have some candles I'd give away....but not to anyone within a couple hundred feet of the house.


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## Crenshaw (Mar 2, 2008)

In the graphic novel/comic Batman: No man's land....Gotham city is cordorned(sp?) off by the Government, and everyone that hadnt left was stuck there in a Limbo of sorts, no food, nothing, just what was there with them.

there was this in quote box "using a flashlight was only an invitation for someone to steal it"

the value of a flashlight AND working batteries sky rocketed. Perishables like an Apple had the value of a gun and loaded bullets. Someone bid up to millions of dollars worth of jewelry for that apple.

The Value of a bullet also went waaaaay up...

Cross bows, and Short/long bows, even improvised ones, and Arrows became highly prized for thier re-usability. People with shelter teamed up with people who could offer protection...metal cans were hung from trip wires as improvised alarm systems for houses...

sure its a just a graphic novel, but it was really interesting..and give a fair amount of ideas

Crenshaw


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## adamlau (Mar 3, 2008)

Neat! I have a Barnett Wildcat crossbow to be upgraded to a Predator AVI soon. Have to get more bolts as well as the carbon fiber types tend to split upon impact.


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## TedTheLed (Mar 23, 2008)

fyi all silver is sold out now. http://silverstockreport.com/2008/crunch.html


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## fnmag (Mar 23, 2008)

Very interesting! Thanks for the headsup. :thumbsup:


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## Norm (Mar 23, 2008)

TedTheLed said:


> the cost of gold right now is $622 an ounce.


I should have listen to Ted when he first posted.
From here http://www.golddealer.com/bullionnews.html
*Gold at $920.00 (Down on the day $25.30) :sigh:*


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## js (Mar 24, 2008)

TedTheLed said:


> fyi all silver is sold out now. http://silverstockreport.com/2008/crunch.html



Silver will actually end up being a LOT more valuable than it is right now, especially relative to gold. It's actually more useful, industrially, than gold, and there is a much more limited supply of it. At this point, IMHO, it's a better buy than gold (at $900/oz).


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## Sub_Umbra (Mar 24, 2008)

Ditto that!


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## TedTheLed (Sep 9, 2011)

well here's an update for you;

gold has tripled
silver has (only) doubled

would you believe it's still a good investment?


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## scout24 (Sep 9, 2011)

Saw the start date for this, and figured I'd thank you for a very timely bump... Good reading. :thumbsup:


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## StarHalo (Sep 9, 2011)

If you put gold in your bug out bag when this thread started, then by now its appreciation alone is enough to pay for the bag and then some..

And if you have the foresight to add universal currency to your kit, don't forget booze - gold is too valuable to trade for smaller things like toiletries or batteries, but for an eighth of Maker's Mark, something could be arranged..


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## angelofwar (Sep 10, 2011)

TedTheLed said:


> Mike I understand what you are saying -- whatever is used as money depends on what the crowd agrees it's worth, but I disagree about gold having no more intrinsic value than feathers, shells, or diamonds. Gold has been used as money, and for it's intrinsic value, by man for a very long time. The commercial demand for gold has always been far greater than it's production, suggesting a greater intrinsic value.
> 
> Who doesn't know gold is worth something? Diamonds have less intrinsic value since there are alot of them and the 'scarcity' of diamonds is artificially created by armies surrounding the diamond mines, limiting the amount of diamonds that come out of them -- otherwise they woud be worth less. Most gold mined since the beginning is in storage; used as money.
> 
> ...



I'm with mike on this one...I'll keep the gas for myself, until some one comes along with a can of chili-mac or a 5th of jack, or some 5.56mm. Or some CR123's :0)

I have plenty of silver that'll I'll sale right before things go south (if they ever get THATbad), and use the money for some extra food/liquor/tobacco. I should have plenty of ammo/batteries at any given time, so no worries there.


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## Sub_Umbra (Sep 10, 2011)

Something interesting happened to me 3-4 weeks ago that makes a compelling statement about our current economic predicament. One of my crowns popped off while I was eating supper. Since it was Friday night I couldn't call my dentist until Monday. I made an appointment and he reglued the crown in place with Fuji. He charged me $90 which is a fair price for the service.

I went home and went to www.coinflation.com and looked up the melt value table that contained the pre-1965 dimes -- the ones that still had silver in them. Well, the tables don't list premiums but they did show that the old silver dimes had a melt value of *$2.85 each* on that particular day. 

*So $3.20 worth of old dimes is now worth over $90 of the paper money we use today.*

NOTE: It takes fewer pre-1965 dimes to make $90 *today* as silver is up.


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## Monocrom (Sep 10, 2011)

Gold not having any intrinsic value??

Perhaps that's a fair statement. After all, it's very rare, and the rarity is what contributes to the value folks place on it. However, for more centuries than we can count, folks have agreed that gold has value. Tons of value. Enough perceived value to kill to take it from others, enough that those who have it will go to extreme lengths to keep it. (Fort Knox wouldn't exist otherwise. Try breaking in, and expect to get shot over that perceived value.)

Point being, if you have gold and need to trade it for medicine or say services (such as having a gunsmith repair your rifle) you are _*far *_more likely to get others to accept gold as a form of payment. 

Turtle shells, feathers, computer parts . . . Good luck finding anyone willing to take those instead of precious metals such as gold and silver. Intrinsic value or not, if a HUGE percentage of the world agrees that something has value, then that perception does indeed become truth.


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## Ken_McE (Sep 10, 2011)

Sub_Umbra,

The links to your Katrina home camouflage pictures have all expired. Are there any currently available on the web?


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## scout24 (Sep 10, 2011)

Ken, I went looking for them last night, too, and logged in now to PM Sub... Good timing! Thanks for asking the question.


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## LukeA (Sep 11, 2011)

I just wanted you guys to know that I'm not going to want gold if I ever trade with you after the end of society as we know it.


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## Monocrom (Sep 11, 2011)

LukeA said:


> I just wanted you guys to know that I'm not going to want gold if I ever trade with you after the end of society as we know it.



I know some ladies who will happily trade with you. Their services for what you have . . . 

They all cook, clean, and will be happy to do your laundry the old fashioned way. Everyone could use nice, clean, socks. :thumbsup:


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## LEDninja (Sep 11, 2011)

A South African Krugerrand or Canadian Maple leaf is worth $1800+ today. Hard to buy just a loaf of bread with it. The smallest American_Gold_Eagle at 1/10 oz is worth $180. 
Note if paper money became worthless, the value of gold would jump tremendously.
We need smaller denomination coins for every day use.
Pity all the coins with some silver in it have already been melted down for the silver.


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## Monocrom (Sep 11, 2011)

LEDninja said:


> Note if paper money became worthless, the value of gold would jump tremendously.
> We need smaller denomination coins for every day use.
> Pity all the coins with some silver in it have already been melted down for the silver.


 
There are still silver coins out there. Not all were melted down. Might be a headache to find them though.

As for paper money. It *is* worthless. But thankfully for society in general, the vast majority of folks don't stop to think about it or realize it's just paper. Even when one individual comes to that realization on their own, they soon remember that everyone else around them hasn't come to that realization. The paper money is still accepted by everyone else, so it's okay. Time to go back to pretending, because everyone else does.


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## TONY M (Sep 11, 2011)

Monocrom said:


> There are still silver coins out there. Not all were melted down. Might be a headache to find them though.
> 
> As for paper money. It *is* worthless. But thankfully for society in general, the vast majority of folks don't stop to think about it or realize it's just paper. Even when one individual comes to that realization on their own, they soon remember that everyone else around them hasn't come to that realization. The paper money is still accepted by everyone else, so it's okay. Time to go back to pretending, because everyone else does.


I agree 100% with regard to paper money, just a system held together by confidence that could ultimately fail causing those only with paper to be left with nothing...

Still kicking myself that I refused to invest in precious metals 10 or so years back. 

Anyway I am drifting off topic as usual but there is as much gold in my BOB as there is in Fort Knox - ie none. . (Some sarcasm intended).


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## TedTheLed (Sep 11, 2011)

got your silver coins right here, some 40% , some 90%... I havent read up on them, so dont know how you would assay the various coins..the only coins I got are silver dollars, containing 1 oz. of pure (.999) silver, and state so right on the coin, so are worth at least the spot price of silver..

http://www.tulving.com/bullion/40_percent_silver_coin_bag.htm

tulving does only larger deals, for smaller qauntities try http://www.golddealer.com/


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## shao.fu.tzer (Sep 11, 2011)

I think food and ammunition will have more value than gold... Plus they're a heckuvalot more useful! Forget gold! Pass the ammunition!


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## scout24 (Sep 11, 2011)

All things have their place in a well-rounded preparedness plan. Precious metals are definitely on the list.


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## Sub_Umbra (Sep 11, 2011)

Ken_McE said:


> Sub_Umbra,
> 
> The links to your Katrina home camouflage pictures have all expired. Are there any currently available on the web?


I can't find them. Sorry.


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## Monocrom (Sep 11, 2011)

shao.fu.tzer said:


> I think food and ammunition will have more value than gold... Plus they're a heckuvalot more useful! Forget gold! Pass the ammunition!



Food has always been used as a barter item. When things really get bad, refriguration is going to be a major issue. Food will have a much shorter shelf-life. Ammunition in the more popular calibers will become a form of currency. (Have to be very careful who you do business with though.)

Might not be a bad idea to invest in reloading equipment. Especially basic hand-held reloading presses that don't require a bench to mount them on. As well as plenty of components such as primers and bullet molds.


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## Satanta (Sep 12, 2011)

Never could afford gold. I can and do afford bullets. I can and do afford preps. I can and will protect the presp at all costs because they will feed my family and friends.

I don't want a war but if it is neccesary then I will use every means at my disposal to win.

I would rather gather a tribe of people who have similar beliefs and the will and knowledge to make things happen will the tools and skills we have than to horde a vault of gold or take a pockets worth of rice from someone else.


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## Satanta (Sep 12, 2011)

Monocrom said:


> Food has always been used as a barter item. When things really get bad, refriguration is going to be a major issue. Food will have a much shorter shelf-life. Ammunition in the more popular calibers will become a form of currency. (Have to be very careful who you do business with though.)
> 
> Might not be a bad idea to invest in reloading equipment. Especially basic hand-held reloading presses that don't require a bench to mount them on. As well as plenty of components such as primers and bullet molds.



Beside that I would keep it even simpler and store black powder components as well as bow and arrow materiels.


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## TedTheLed (Sep 13, 2011)

I am assuming y'all favor bullets for their intrinsic value..
In which case thanks for reminding us just how a portion of the population would behave in reaction to the devaluation of currency..
Just how much toilet paper (since you don't use gold) would it take to buy (barter) you guys out? 
Or do you use bullets for that purpose also?


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## iapyx (Sep 13, 2011)

TedTheLed said:


> I am assuming y'all favor bullets for their intrinsic value..
> In which case thanks for reminding us just how a portion of the population would behave in reaction to the devaluation of currency..
> Just how much toilet paper (since you don't use gold) would it take to buy (barter) you guys out?
> Or do you use bullets for that purpose also?



hehe
I'd advise them to buy golden and silver bullets.


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## Siliconti (Sep 13, 2011)

Interesting thread. I'd stock up on more valuable things - look at stuff that is valuable in 3rd world countries: condoms, food items, fuel, etc. If the SHTF, gas is worth more than gold. IMHO.


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## Monocrom (Sep 13, 2011)

TedTheLed said:


> I am assuming y'all favor bullets for their intrinsic value..
> In which case thanks for reminding us just how a portion of the population would behave in reaction to the devaluation of currency..
> Just how much toilet paper (since you don't use gold) would it take to buy (barter) you guys out?
> Or do you use bullets for that purpose also?



Even if the vast majority of your neighbors don't go rioting in the streets, there will always be those who use force to take what they want from others. Those types of individuals will likely travel in groups to make them even stronger and more capable of taking advantage of those who are weaker than they are. And those types of individuals respect nothing but strength and force. You can't reason with them. You can't barter with them. Once they know what you have, they'll just take it from you by force. If that includes all of your food, they'll take it with zero regards as to how you will now be able to feed yourself and your family. Point that out to them, and they'll likely end up feeding your wife and daughter . . . after they take them from you as well.

Sad fact of reality, but that's how it is. You can be the nicest person in the world. You can be part of a community that helps each other out, after society collapses. One day, someone with far fewer morals may show up outside your gates; and oh look . . . he's brought his buddies with him. And they look as though they want to show off their rather impressive gun collection to everyone there.


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## TedTheLed (Sep 13, 2011)

so you think that's all it'll take to end society and summon out all the road warriors?
just the devaluation of the currency?
are we that fragile?

...well I am not unready for them. I just don't use that eventuality as my focus point for life..


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## csshih (Sep 14, 2011)

TedTheLed said:


> so you think that's all it'll take to end society and summon out all the road warriors?
> just the devaluation of the currency?
> are we that fragile?
> 
> ...well I am not unready for them. I just don't use that eventuality as my focus point for life..


 I've been reading One Second After: http://www.amazon.com/dp/0765317583/?tag=cpf0b6-20
(thanks supertrouper)
It's an interesting one about an EMP and a possible way people will act if it takes out vital infrastructure. seems pretty accurate, IMHO.

Craig


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## Monocrom (Sep 14, 2011)

TedTheLed said:


> so you think that's all it'll take to end society and summon out all the road warriors?
> just the devaluation of the currency?
> are we that fragile?
> 
> ...well I am not unready for them. I just don't use that eventuality as my focus point for life..



No. It would take more than just that. Do I think it would take a great deal more than that? Once again, I'd have to say no.

Still . . . imagine what would happen if the day ever came when a significant percentage of people in a nation looked down into their hands while getting ready to pay for something; and then realized they are holding paper, just paper. Coming to the realization that it has no real value at all. Paper money, and coins with zero precious metals in them are dependent on human psychology. Everything is fine when everyone or nearly everyone agrees that the paper is worth the number value of what's printed on it. 

Pieces of Eight used to refer to actual pieces of a coin that were cut like a pizza pie. Usually eight "slices" from one coin. A coin made entirely of precious metal. That's how the world used to make change. Nowadays you can walk into a jewelry shop, and walk out with genuine gold chains for your neck or wrists . . . simply with the swipe of a piece of plastic. At one point in the world, in certain places; salt was traded almost ounce for ounce for gold. As hard that might seem to believe, we can now get gold in exchange for certain pieces of paper or plastic. 

Paper or plastic . . . no longer a question asked by a young man or woman at the supermarket.


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## Sub_Umbra (Sep 14, 2011)

While apocalyptic collapse is widely promoted by Science Fiction and most religions, it is not supported on any massive scale in history. When it is written that "...Rome fell..." few seem to connect with the larger picture and the fact that it took over 380 years. I wouldn't be a bit surprised if there was no one in Rome who recognized that they were in decline even after it had already *been going on for a hundred years.* Likewise it's easy to report that "...the Mayans walked away from their cities..." but it's much less obvious that those same cities were still partially occupied for 180 years _while folks were walking away._ Just the act of reading history tends to compress the time frame of events in our minds.

History shows over and over again that in general, complex societies collapse more slowly in almost stair-steppy fits of significant crises followed by brief periods of recovery, generally trending downwards for hundreds of years.

Periods of localized chaos, on the other hand, *will* be likely *in many places* -- been there, done that, got the smelly tee shirt.


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