# How many lumens is too much?



## Ninja (Apr 3, 2009)

Looking for a tacical flashlight. How many lumens is too much?? I wanna stun someone and take away thier nv but I dont want to take mine away if the light bounces off the walls and back at me. Comments?


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## glockboy (Apr 3, 2009)

60 lumens is enough too blind a person is the dark.


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## Benson (Apr 3, 2009)

Ninja said:


> Looking for a tacical flashlight. How many lumens is too much?? I wanna stun someone and take away thier nv but I dont want to take mine away if the light bounces off the walls and back at me. Comments?



I think a 7C Maglite, turned off and swung hard, is the best flashlight for stunning someone without losing your night vision.

The light you're looking for doesn't exist; many, indeed most, flashlights are bright enough to ruin your night vision, and that of anyone in whose eyes you shine it, but not bright enough to have a substantial stunning effect.

If I were to build a light with that goal, it would be a minimum of 1000 lm, strobe only, and would be interfaced to LCD shutter goggles. (And I'd call it a Neuralyser, yes.) AFAIK, no such backsplash-limiting light systems exist, so anything stun-capable _will_ poleax your nightvision.


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## Phill (Apr 3, 2009)

What you would need for that is a high power laser.

Blasting someone with any light when their eyes are night adjusted will dazzle them (try sitting in a dark room then shining an E01 in your eyes, its more than enough). Obviously 100 or even 200 lumen is way more than enough to make them shield their face/look away.

Look at everything else and your lumen amount is almost an after thought in a good tactical light, especially when it comes to the whole "dazzle the bad guy" factor - all modern ones put out more than enough and if you are in the territory of you being dazzled from the light bouncing back then you are no longer looking at tactical lights.

I specify dazzle because it will take away your night vision to some degree however bright/dim the light is.

Basically, the point of a tac light, as i understand it as someone with only a passing knowledge of them, is to light up the area you are shooting at. Being able to gain a second or two of advantage is just a natural side effect and as far as im aware strobe doesnt actually have much advantage than high beam except it can be off putting to you as well as them.


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## groo01 (Apr 3, 2009)

Groo here
I have had the same thoughts...
A key chain light will make you see spots if you are in the dark.
I think the key is to flash the bad dude or dudet and let the area go dark
again. They got spots you don't.
In this case 60 to 100lms would be fine.
In the daytime you would need a large flash like a Sun Superflase on
a 35mm.
The tac light is for you to see and ident the target, just remember
that a light is also a bullet magnet..


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## Ninja (Apr 3, 2009)

Ninja said:


> Looking for a tacical flashlight. How many lumens is too much?? I wanna stun someone and take away thier *NITE VISION OPTICS* but I dont want to take mine away if the light bounces off the walls and back at me. Comments?



Sorry, should have made it more clear as to disabling the oponents optics without your NV optic becomming disabled... I was guessing SF L4 with wide short throw.


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## Search (Apr 3, 2009)

60 incandescent lumens.
50 LED lumens.

At close quarters this is all it takes to see what you need to do without blinding yourself and stun others.

Yes, 200 lumens in a room will blind someone temporarily, but you will be too. Not as long though..

The question is how many lumens are too much not how many do you need.. so the answer is something like this.

If you are outside.. it does not matter as long as you aren't in a confined space like an alley or between two objects that reflects light.

If you are inside then I wouldn't go over 100-120 lumens and even with that you will more than likely deteriorate your night vision for a second.


Think about it.. Why does the FBI and US Marshalls issue the Z2 Combatlight producing 65 incandescent lumens?

There can be too much light depending on where you operate, period.


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## buickid (Apr 3, 2009)

Over 9000. :nana:

Kidding aside, I find that people think my M30W on 2xAA batteries is bright... bright enough for them to raise their hands up or turn away. Not that I've intentionally blasted them with it or anything 
Now if someone was really trying to kill you... they might still be charging you, but perhaps their aim wont be as good...


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## GPB (Apr 3, 2009)

Search said:


> Think about it.. Why does the FBI and US Marshalls issue the Z2 Combatlight producing 65 incandescent lumens?


 
Don't get me wrong...I love my country as much as the next guy, probably more, and there's no place I'd rather live.....but I would never use the US Gov't as an example of logic and sensibility. 

I would also never count on a light to get me out of anything but darkness. If I was expecting any other kind of trouble I'd have a colapsable baton or night stick.


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## 1dash1 (Apr 3, 2009)

Ninja said:


> Looking for a tacical flashlight. How many lumens is too much?? I wanna stun someone and take away thier nv but I dont want to take mine away if the light bounces off the walls and back at me. Comments?


 
_*Close your eyes???*_ :shrug:


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## bluepilgrim (Apr 3, 2009)

You always have the option of closing one eye, knowing you are going to flash brightly, but even a small light will distract someone for a moment, and if within striking range that's time to kick them in the gonads or whatever other neat trick you have. You get a half second surprise delay (and you can make loud, weird noise at them too), say, and another half second for their normal reaction time, and that should be plenty to take them down. You can also gently toss the light at their head while you close in from a short distance, or duck and hide; that would be very distracting and hard for them to ignore or look past. (And you can also pull out your backup light during that time.)

This is the sort of thing you should consult with a martial arts expert about since there is more to it than just a bright light: it's controlling the mental situation which is most important.


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## bullfrog (Apr 3, 2009)

Ninja said:


> Looking for a tacical flashlight. How many lumens is too much?? I wanna stun someone and take away thier nv but I dont want to take mine away if the light bounces off the walls and back at me. Comments?



Why do you want to stun someone and take away their nightvision? :shrug:


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## Sleestak (Apr 3, 2009)

Ninja said:


> Sorry, should have made it more clear as to disabling the oponents optics without your NV optic becomming disabled... I was guessing SF L4 with wide short throw.


 
You're talking about NV goggles and such? Well, if they're using some of those cheap garbage ones I've seen around about all you'd need is a Bic lighter.

Seriously, the Gen 1 and II will fall prey to just about anything. I've played with them before, and even a MiniMag can do it. The later optics, especially 4th generation, are overload protected. 

Just remember: the biggest overload danger you face for your own optics is the fact that the other guy might just have a flashlight/weapon light as well. I've seen few fellas that carry NV gear that don't also carry a decent light.


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## PetaBread (Apr 3, 2009)

bullfrog said:


> Why do you want to stun someone and take away their nightvision? :shrug:


 

Maybe he's a cop.


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## KenAnderson (Apr 4, 2009)

1 million lumens is definately too much for an EDC flashlight...I think...hmmm....ok, 100 million is definately too much. lovecpf


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## sORe-EyEz (Apr 4, 2009)

other then lumen requirements maybe the beam should be an all-throw-no-spill (or very little). also how bright depends on how far that target is. what if that human target wasn't even looking in the direction of the light? :sick2:


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## Search (Apr 4, 2009)

GPB said:


> Don't get me wrong...I love my country as much as the next guy, probably more, and there's no place I'd rather live.....but I would never use the US Gov't as an example of logic and sensibility.
> 
> I would also never count on a light to get me out of anything but darkness. If I was expecting any other kind of trouble I'd have a colapsable baton or night stick.



The US Marshall's are on par with the best shots in LE/Military Spec Ops teams.

The FBI HRT team is on par with SEALs as far as CQC ability goes.

I would never doubt their combat prowess and I highly doubt what they issue is anything less than ideal for situations.

The White House and Congress might be total morons, but DOD, FBI, DEA, ICE, BP, CIA, ETC ETC ETC is more than on top of their game.

I'm not trying to be heated  but I would never doubt anything about their tactical teams.


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## SupremeEye (Apr 4, 2009)

Search said:


> The US Marshall's are on par with the best shots in LE/Military Spec Ops teams.
> 
> The FBI HRT team is on par with SEALs as far as CQC ability goes.
> 
> .


Hell if my life is on the line and im a hostage send in the LAPD "D" Platoon (SWAT) or the LASD SEB.


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## GPB (Apr 4, 2009)

I didn't even recognize half the acronyms you mentioned, but I'm sure those are some well trained and equipped teams, and there are some amazingly qualified individuals on those teams.... but I'm sure we can all recall items from the news where our servicemen weren't properly equipped. Humvees without any armor in Iraq comes to mind for example, or parents buying Kevlar vests for their kids serving over there. I don't want to hijack the thread or turn it into an issue of patriotism.....I just wanted to point out that just because the US Gov't uses something, doesn't mean its the best tool for the job.


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## f22shift (Apr 4, 2009)

maybe a more focused beam like a thrower instead of a flood.


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## Justin Case (Apr 4, 2009)

If you are dark-adapted, then even relatively low light intensity can kill your night vision. But to claim that a specific lumen level is the critical amount is erroneous IMO.

Try this experiment. Get dark-adapted some night. Flash your eyes with a high-intensity "tactical flashlight". Doesn't have to be some high lumen light. It could be an old fashioned SureFire 6P with a P60 lamp, which is 65 lumens. What is the effect on your night vision?

Then get dark adapted again. Briefly flip on the room lights. A 60 watt light bulb is probably 800 lumens. What is the effect on your night vision? How does it compare to getting hit with a focused 65 lumen light?

The bottom line is what your opponent sees is not necessarily what you will see. You are going to try to hit him in the eyes with the hot spot, which could measure 1000-10000 lux, depending on range and the light you use. You are going to see the scattered light off the walls, which could be on the order of 100 lux or less.


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## Lightraven (Apr 4, 2009)

GPB said:


> I didn't even recognize half the acronyms you mentioned,



FBI=Federal Breast Inspectors (according to Bart Simpson, who is never wrong about these things)
DEA=Drug Enforcement Agency (yeah, I know, I know)
ICE=depends on who you ask--to those who work for ICE, ICE is an acronym for ICE
BP=British Petroleum 
CIA=No Such Agency (oh, wait, I'm confused)
ETC=So top secret, I can't reveal in a public forum
CQC="Buy this T-shirt, knife or training video"
HRT, SEAL, SWAT, SEB, 'D'=Each wants to be one of the others (Just kidding, don't kill me!)


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## Search (Apr 4, 2009)

Lightraven said:


> FBI=Federal Breast Inspectors (according to Bart Simpson, who is never wrong about these things)
> DEA=Drug Enforcement Agency (yeah, I know, I know)
> ICE=depends on who you ask--to those who work for ICE, ICE is an acronym for ICE
> BP=British Petroleum
> ...



lol that made me laugh.

DEA - Drug Enforcement Agency
ICE - Immigrations and Customs Agency
BP - Border Patrol
CIA - Central Intelligence Agency
ETC - Elite Turtle Command
CQC - Close Quarter Combat
HRT - FBI Hostage Rescue Team

And one some might not know:

ATF - Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and *Explosives *Agency


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## StandardBattery (Apr 4, 2009)

GPB said:


> *... *there's no place I'd rather live.....but I would never use the US Gov't as an example of logic and sensibility. *...*


 

I believe that is the most sensible thing I've heard a Flashaholic say on here.

_ps... you can apply that to any government._


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## LightJaguar (Apr 5, 2009)

StandardBattery said:


> I believe that is the most sensible thing I've heard a Flashaholic say on here.
> 
> _ps... you can apply that to any government._



:laughing: :laughing: :laughing:

Yea I agree with that statement. I was in the US Military and sadly this also applies to them.
I'm not sure where Search got his numbers from but I think that he maybe got them backwards. I think that Incandescent flashlights might have more of blinding ability because of the Infrared coming out of them. 
On another note I once lent my buddy my triple Cree flashlight so that he could use it at the bar where he works at. Sure enough some guys got into a fight near the bar and my buddy pulled it out and aimed it towards them.
They were stunned once he turned it on and stopped fighting. I guess that they thought that the cops had come in. Also a bystander later came by an complained about the bright flashlight. He asked my buddy not to use it anymore because he had blinded him.


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## SupremeEye (Apr 5, 2009)

On friday night I almost got into it with some inmates, we come in to do a count and welfare check.

One of My partners says "LAY DOWN ON YOUR BUNKS" of course there are two dumb inmates still up. So I take out my TK11 R2 and shine it on the first guy he squints his eyes and proceeds to follow orders. I shine it on another inmate to my right and he does the same and then some dumb *** says.

"YOU AIN'T GOTTA BE SHINING LIGHTS AND STUFF"

My response was "STFU!" literally Shut the F*ck up. 

Actually there were three, the third guy was on a bottom bunk and my partner was dealing with him. So the 3rd inmated being a bit defiant says something and my partners responds with "What, are you gonna do something?"

Inmate reponse "Psshhh not right now" and it escalated from there.

No violence took place, we sent the guy to the hole.

Yet for several minutes hmm things could have got ugly, it seemed as if other inmates were gonna jump in if something went down.

Can't follow simple directions that were said in a respectful way and things will happen.

Hell the 240lumen output of the TK11 sent the message, and if I was up closer with the bezel turned to the low setting 60 lumens would have done the same.

All depends on distance, size of room etc.


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## Search (Apr 5, 2009)

SupremeEye said:


> All depends on distance, size of room etc.



Exactly which is why I'm, sadly, starting to get the point where I refer the TK11/10 as an impressive tactical light.

In doors you don't want too much light and outdoors you need a lot.

The 10 and 11 give you all of that with only a twist of the bezel, so it can't accidentally change modes while using momentary tactics.

However, when the A2Z comes out, it will rival the TK series and be near the top of the SureFire tactical lights.

Remember, SWAT teams don't have to light a room up to clear it. You are trained to hit the door hard and make a fast check of the corner you are hitting and then sweep back towards the center.

A beam with absolutely no flood would not be ideal but a beam like the TK11/M60/P60L and the such would be just as good as the beam of an L4.

An MC-E light would blind you with it's lumens and outdoors you would need it to be very bright so it could reach the distances you would encounter.

Again however, I'm interested to see what the M3L will do with a quad die emitter and a TIR lens. It might have a nice balance of throw and flood but it's still TOO bright for indoors use.

You can't peak around a corner, pop the light on, and be able to engage a target or move around the corner because your blinder.

Seconds mean everything and you can't lose them because your tactical light cranks out more lumens than your eyes are designed for in those close quarters.

Period, there is no way around that.

Which is why, a 50/60 to 100 ish lumens light with the beam somewhere between the new L4 to the TK11 would be ideal for use because it gives you a good medium setting you between what you need indoors and outdoors.

You don't always have a choice where you will be in defensive/offensive tactical/tactical like situations, so don't bring gear only suited for one specific thing. 

Hope this helps. This thread has reached it's end anyway. Not much else can be said before lazy-boy commandos come in with Rambo tactics  Sorry, no offense.


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## Illum (Apr 5, 2009)

GPB said:


> ...but I would never use the US Gov't as an example of logic and sensibility



QUOTE OF THE MONTH!
​"Too much light" only occurs when the glare that gets thrown back at you begins to impair your perception. Rarely do we reach that level....unless of course you use your 35W 4000K HID to look for a pair of socks in your closet


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## Search (Apr 5, 2009)

Illum said:


> QUOTE OF THE MONTH!
> ​"Too much light" only occurs when the glare that gets thrown back at you begins to impair your perception. Rarely do we reach that level....unless of course you use your 35W 4000K HID to look for a pair of socks in your closet



I can take my E2DL and shine it in any room of my house and take away my night vision for .5 second to 2 seconds.

In tactical situations that's bad.

It's not severe and I should be saying it doesn't matter.

However in "real" tactical situations it does.

To each his own, I'm just breaking it down, way down.


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## bluepilgrim (Apr 5, 2009)

Search said:


> [...]
> The 10 and 11 give you all of that with only a twist of the bezel, so it can't accidentally change modes while using momentary tactics.
> [...]


 
I find this bothersome about these 'twisty' flashlights I've seen -- it takes two hands or some fairly dextrous fingers. A slide switch might be better so you can control it quickly but with one hand, say using your thumb (or with a thumb-wheel).


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## Owen (Apr 5, 2009)

Search said:


> Hope this helps. This thread has reached it's end anyway. Not much else can be said before lazy-boy commandos come in with Rambo tactics  Sorry, no offense.


LMAO. Who the hell do you think you are? You're a dumbass kid who's not even old enough to do a ridealong. Who told you you were some tactical guru?
I was just a plain old paratrooper, but I was wearing NVGs and doing killhouse exercises, jumping out of planes, blowing stuff up and playing with the cool toys when you were still in diapers, and I am not an old man. 
I suppose you think you impress somebody with your secret squirrel BS, but you're just a do-nothing wannabe with a big mouth, an attitude you haven't earned, and a whole lot to learn. 
Since you apparently don't know, I'll tell you that there are a number of ex and current military and law enforcement who post here, and all you're doing is making a fool of yourself.


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## Search (Apr 5, 2009)

bluepilgrim said:


> I find this bothersome about these 'twisty' flashlights I've seen -- it takes two hands or some fairly dextrous fingers. A slide switch might be better so you can control it quickly but with one hand, say using your thumb (or with a thumb-wheel).



Not so much as a quick change that can be done instantly, but if you know you are going to be moving from indoors to outdoors you can give yourself a few seconds to adapt.

Even if you never actually changed modes while in a situation, it could be done before hand if you knew you were entering a house or going through a field.

Just my opinion.



Owen said:


> LMAO. Who the hell do you think you are? You're a dumbass kid who's not even old enough to do a ridealong. Who told you you were some tactical guru?
> I was just a plain old paratrooper, but I was wearing NVGs and doing killhouse exercises, jumping out of planes, blowing stuff up and playing with the cool toys when you were still in diapers, and I am not an old man.
> I suppose you think you impress somebody with your secret squirrel BS, but you're just a do-nothing wannabe with a big mouth, an attitude you haven't earned, and a whole lot to learn.
> Since you apparently don't know, I'll tell you that there are a number of ex and current military and law enforcement who post here, and all you're doing is making a fool of yourself.



I think I'm Clint Sutton.

I think I train with the Police Department. 

I think I also train with SWAT.

So.. I don't really see your point but I'm going to be civil. I don't want to get mad because your totally off.

If you think what I'm saying is wrong, then discuss it. However, in the end I'm pretty much repeating what I've learned. The tactics SWAT instructors teach.

I did not say anything about you nor did I specifically say anything in this thread so far is wrong, I think I've agreed with everyone.

If you read that sentence, it's in future tense. Which means some people will eventually make their way here and do exactly what I' said they would do.

Hopefully you understand this because your post was beyond unnecessary. It was flat out wrong.

Now, if you would like to discuss how I'm wrong, then it would be my pleasure to talk.

You don't know how old I am either.


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## bluepilgrim (Apr 5, 2009)

Search said:


> Not so much as a quick change that can be done instantly, but if you know you are going to be moving from indoors to outdoors you can give yourself a few seconds to adapt.
> 
> Even if you never actually changed modes while in a situation, it could be done before hand if you knew you were entering a house or going through a field.
> 
> Just my opinion.


 
I can say this: while going after a raccoon in the garage I want a fairly low light and to move quietly and not spook it, and a then bright light when I'm ready to hit it, and that with an air rifle taking up my right hand. There are other situations too where I'm carrying something in the other hand, such as going through the woods to fill a water jug and then wanting to know what the noise off to the side of the trail is. That's the thing -- you never know what will happen next. 
There are all kinds of reasons to want a low level light, and then to boost it up while the other hand is occupied, and it's just more convenient, generally. 

Oh yeah -- after reading this thread I've decided: 20. 20 lumens is too much. 18 is OK though. 




Search said:


> [to Owen]
> You don't know how old I am either.


 
Well, maybe Owen doesn't, but I think I do. You're 19 -- that's what your profile says. Heck -- my CAR is 19. 
Enjoy it while it lasts!


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## Search (Apr 5, 2009)

bluepilgrim said:


> Well, maybe Owen doesn't, but I think I do. You're 19 -- that's what your profile says. Heck -- my CAR is 19.
> Enjoy it while it lasts!



Meh I turn 20 in a few days.

However, what my profile doesn't say is what kind of training I've had.

I think Owen was more upset about my last comment and thinking that I think I'm a hardened LEO veteran.

I've said I'm in the Reserve program and am patiently waiting to start riding.

However, I train solely at night and train with our SWAT instructor and other instructors.

I'm not here to show off anything and I think if I hadn't said that last part, which Owen misunderstood, he would either politely argue with my thoughts or agree.

If what I said is wrong, then my Police Departments tactics are wrong, and so far we've had great success. SWAT school instructors in Nashville have said our team is one of the best in the state.

I don't want this thread to end because it's a good point, there can be too much light and not enough light in situations. Not so much tactical, but defense situations where you think someone is in your house and the such.

Now if we could stay on topic, to keep this thread alive, I would appreciate constructive thoughts. Especially since I've never claimed I'm anything I'm not.

Hope this clarifies, but until my thoughts are proved wrong, it's unfair to me to claim I'm an idiot.

Young yes, but dedicated to my training I'm not. I get the pleasure of training with top notch people and I gladly share what I've learned. 

That's who I am and where my posts come from.


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## Bullzeyebill (Apr 6, 2009)

Ok guys. Let's attack the posts not the poster. One of the rules that makes CPF one of the better forums. 

Bill


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## bluepilgrim (Apr 6, 2009)

Search said:


> Meh I turn 20 in a few days.
> 
> However, what my profile doesn't say is what kind of training I've had.
> 
> I think Owen was more upset about my last comment and thinking that I think I'm a hardened LEO veteran.


 
I think the line might have been _"This thread has reached it's end anyway. Not much else can be said before lazy-boy commandos come in with Rambo tactics  Sorry, no offense."_ Which I myself found a bit 'pre-emptive' even though I have no real dog in this discussion, other than a watch-dog, maybe. That said, I think we can easily recover. 

From my side of the calendar, 20 is very young too; I wish I had the knowledge I do know and the energy I did then, but that notion is so ancient it's trite. There's nothing wrong with being young of course -- it just that it's taken me many decades to become as ignorant as I am now, and I value it. (seriously... you have to be able to put away what you 'know' to learn something new.)



> Now if we could stay on topic, to keep this thread alive, I would appreciate constructive thoughts. Especially since I've never claimed I'm


I'd say the most important thing I've learned (at nearly 62) is that the specific stuff always changes, even while the general things (principles) tend to stay, but it's hard to tell the difference between them. I've never done much 'tactical' things, such as in police work, (although I've survived some tough environements at times), but general principles tend to apply to most things (hence, general). 

One of these is that there are usually different ways to look at and do things, and one should be looking at things from both narrow and broad perspectives. Also, human psychology, neurology, and perspective is far more important than we usually give them credit for -- and it's good to understand situations from the other guys perspective. Yes: versatility is valuable, as you said. And so is always thinking. For instance, there might be some advantages to having a bluish filter on a very bright light while you are wearing red tinted glasses -- enough to see but yet filter out the glare and brightness while preserving night vision (just a thought). The question comes down to how to gain an advantage over your opponent.


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## DM51 (Apr 6, 2009)

The thread has been of scant value, with some knowledgeable input but too much bravado on the one hand and name-calling on the other. It's closed.


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