# Wolf Eyes Rattlesnake Advice Request



## Taboot (Nov 2, 2007)

I bought an M90 Rattlesnake light from PTS (good outfit, I found) some time ago. It takes 4XCR123As. I now want to make it rechargeable and I want use the 700 lumen EO-13 bulb (or better?) that they sell. I am somewhat confused as to what it takes to accomplish this. There seems to be a choice of battery types and number required and additional accessories needed. 

I am truly a newbie, especially as it pertains to modding a light. I simply wish to make it rechargeable and as bright as is reasonably possible. Cost (within some reason) isn't as much of a concern.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks in advance for your time... 

note: when i bought the M90, I was thrilled with its output, then i started seeing the monsters you all have and it isn't enough anymore. Thanks alot. :shakehead


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## mdocod (Nov 2, 2007)

To use the 700 lumen bulb, you have to add an extender and run 3 18650 size lithium-ion cells(Wolf-Eyes brand calls this size cell a LRB-168A). This will make the flashlight body equivalent to a 6CR123 length body... keep that in mind because if you don't want to go longer, you might want to stick to a 9V rechargeable configuration using the 450 lumen 9V lamp instead. (that would use 2x18650 size cells instead)

here is a link to the extender you want:
http://www.pts-flashlights.com/products/product.aspx?pid=1-20-40-87-6271

for the purpose of simplicity, it might just be smartest to buy your charger and cells and bulb all from PTS, call him up if you are still confused I'm sure he'll be more than happy to put together all the stuff you need....

If you want to save a few pennies you might consider AW brand cells sold over in the CPF marketplace, his 18650s are $12 each last I checked and are god quality as well... But I think the wolf-eyes cells might be the better option for a first-time li-ion converter... as they are designed to just drop-in and work, sometimes magnets are needed on the AW 18650s because they don't have the "bumps" on the positive end to complete the contacts...


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## JohnB (Nov 2, 2007)

The WOLF-EYES 168 cells are dependable and worth the money.

regards


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## Patriot (Nov 2, 2007)

mdocod, could he also use the LRB-150 extender (3xLRB150) and have a shorter oal?

http://www.pts-flashlights.com/products/product.aspx?pid=1-20-40-87-6273

http://www.pts-flashlights.com/products/product.aspx?pid=1-20-40-87-6187


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## mdocod (Nov 2, 2007)

forgot about that, yes, he could use the 3xLRB-150A configuration, only adds about 1/2 a CR123 in length, loose about 35% runtime and maybe 5-10% brightness.


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## Patriot (Nov 3, 2007)

I like 18650s a bunch, but that would sure be a compact 700 lumen light with the LRB-150As, wouldn't it. Like you said, at the sacrifice of run-time and a bit more sag.


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## KeeperSD (Nov 3, 2007)

Here is a picture of what you need to make the Rattlesnake into a 700 lumen monster 







The extender is the short one just above the tail switch. I use 18500's or the LRB 150's with mine. It is an impressive light to say the least. Would love to see a smooth reflector for it and see how much it could really throw


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## j3bnl (Nov 3, 2007)

+1 for the short extender. 
Keeps the lights length down and its a very bright light.


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## Taboot (Nov 3, 2007)

Thanks alot for all of your replies. Sorry I didn't respond sooner, but I really appreciate the advice (and pictures!) I believe I will go the 3XLRB150 route with the EO-13 bulb. PTS sells a conversion kit that seems to include everything I need. However, it comes with a 13V WE 300 lumen bulb. Perhaps I can see if PTS will modify the kit to include the EO-13 instead. 

I think this will be a very bright light that should keep my obsession at bay for at least a while. I realize that it is somewhat impractical as you can only use it for 5 minutes at a time, but practical is not what I'm after for this light :devil:. 

I have the 4 led tailcap and the original clicky. I hope the LED cap will work with it. 

From one of the posts above, I take it that the OP finish on the reflector reduces throw. Maybe someday they'll try a smooth finish.

Thanks again.


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## DM51 (Nov 4, 2007)

The 3x18500 configuration (with the short half-cell extender) is the one I use too, with the EO-13 LA. It is a better size (~2 inches shorter) than the 3x18650 configuration.

I recommend AW's protected Li-Ion cells. The WE ones are good quality too, but they are more expensive. AW's new upgraded cells, including the 18500s, now have button-tops, so you will not need magnets or anything else to complete the contacts properly.

If you e-mail Mike at PTS, he will be able help you. He will be able to supply the EO-13 in place of the stock WE 13v LA.


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## Taboot (Nov 4, 2007)

DM51 - Thanks for the advice on the batteries. I will email Mike @ PTS.


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## Glen C (Nov 7, 2007)

Taboot, your LED tailcap will work with the 13v setup.


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## Taboot (Nov 7, 2007)

Thank GlenC,

I like the LED cap alot. It makes the light a little more practical.

I put an email into PTS, hope to have it all on order soon.

Including the cost of the stock light, this whole rig should cost between $130-150, i think. I wonder if there is any other 700 lumen (assuming it performs as advertised) light for this price. 

I really like the W-E quality, too. I've never owned or even held a SF, so I can't really say. Given the price difference, I may never own a SF. 

I can't wait to get this thing together. :naughty:

Thanks again for your input,

Taboot


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## Taboot (Nov 7, 2007)

I ordered all the requisite components from PTS.

I decided to get the 168s insead based on Mike's recommendation. The total bill for the 700lumen light will be around $170.

70ish for the non-rechargeable original light
100ish for all the goodies to make it rechargeable and 700 lumens, includes:
- WE 13V bulb, comes with kit, they won't swap it for the EO-13 
I didn't mind, as it will allow me a longer runtime, more practical option
- EO-13 bulb - 700 lumens:naughty:
- 3x LRB168s
- Charger
- Extension tube

All in all, I'd say it seems like a bargain for 700 lumens, if it all performs as advertised.

PS- Mike @ PTS was helpful and responsive.
PS- I also ordered a P3D Q5, couldn't resist

Can't wait for all these goodies to arrive

Take care,

Taboot


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## SuRgE (Nov 11, 2007)

Could (3) rcr123a 3.7v and a dummy cell be used? I know runtime would suffer but would it be able to achieve the max that the EO-13 would put out.

Also, the extender pictured above with the 18500s; will that be long enough for (3) 18650s or does Wolf Eyes have another extender for 18650 use?


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## Taboot (Nov 11, 2007)

Surge,

I believe the extender tube for the 18650s is in fact different than the 18500 tube. Please do not rely on this as I'm not 100% sure. 

As far as the RCR123a battery option, I do not know, but this would be of interest to me as well.

I hope to have all the parts on Monday or Tuesday. I'll try to give a quick write-up once I get it all together

Mike


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## DM51 (Nov 11, 2007)

SuRgE said:


> Could (3) rcr123a 3.7v and a dummy cell be used? I know runtime would suffer but would it be able to achieve the max that the EO-13 would put out.


Nooooo!!! The EO-13 draws 2.2 Amps, which is far too much for R123 Li-Ion cells. If you tried this, the bulb would light up, then in a few seconds it would dim quite a lot and turn yellow-ish as the voltage dropped and the cells started to cook off. You would wreck the cells very quickly.

There is a useful measurement to bear in mind, called "C" (nothing to do with C-sized cells). Take the figure battery's capacity in miliiamp-hours (mAh). That same figure in mA is 1C. 

The discharge rate of a Li-Ion cell should not exceed 2C, and the charge rate should be 0.5C-1C (never exceeding 1C).

For a R123 Li-Ion cell, the capacity is 750 mAh maximum (do not believe ANY claims of a greater capacity - the mfg. is lying). 1C is therefore 750mA. The max discharge rate, 2C, is therefore 1,500 mA (= 1.5A). In practice, with R123s, it is better to limit the discharge rate to slightly lower than that, 1,200 mA. 

The figure for C works in the same way for other cells - i.e. for 18650s with a capacity of 2,400 mAh, 2C will be 4.8A, and for 18500s (1,500 mAh) 2C will be 3A. 

That is why these larger cells can drive the EO-13, and small R123s cannot.


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## SuRgE (Nov 11, 2007)

Thanks DM51. 

So in theory, if there were such things as 2500 MAH Rcr123a then they would work? I too want to upgrade my M90x and have a bunch of 123a laying around. I will have to look for the extension for (3) 18650s so I can run the EO-13.

What is the typical mah rating of a primary 123a such as an Energizer E2?


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## DM51 (Nov 11, 2007)

SuRgE said:


> So in theory, if there were such things as 2500 MAH Rcr123a then they would work?


In theory, yes; but unfortunately science has not yet discovered a way to cram 2,500 mAh at 3.7V into a R123-size package. 750mAh is the best that can be achieved in that size Li-Ion cell.





SuRgE said:


> I too want to upgrade my M90x and have a bunch of 123a laying around?


 CR123A Lithium 3.0V primaries are different to R123 Li-Ion 3.7V rechargeables. 

The EO-13 will work after a fashion with 4x CR123A primaries, but it will be under-driven with the low voltage, and the primaries will struggle with the 2.2A current (which will cause quite severe voltage sag, worsening the already low-voltage. You should use a 12V LA. 

When using primaries, make sure they are identical in age, make, type and state of charge. Do not mix different cells, or old with new, in the same light. Doing anything like that is one of the surest ways to cause a venting incident.





SuRgE said:


> I will have to look for the extension for (3) 18650s so I can run the EO-13.


PTS have these – the extension you need to use 3x 18500s is the LRB-150 (~17mm long), and the one for 3x 18650s is the LRB-168 (~65mm long). Mike at PTS can help you with this.





SuRgE said:


> What is the typical mah rating of a primary 123a such as an Energizer E2?


It varies with the make, and depends on the load (current). At 0.5A, expect ~1.6 mAh, at 1A expect ~1.4 mAh, at 2A expect ~1.1mAh.


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## SuRgE (Nov 11, 2007)

Thanks DM51 for taking the time to respond to my questions.

Will contact PTS on the 168 extension tube needed to run the EO-13 in my M90x.:thumbsup:


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## EvilPaul2112 (Nov 13, 2007)

Regarding the 700 lumen lamp:
I use (2) Rattlesnake M90 (150R) rechargeables for work as a Cop. I still prefer the Lumens Factory 400 lumen lamp over the 700 lumen. The 150 batteries/extender are the perfect length and the 400 lumen lamp provides just short of 1 hour runtime to 50% output. I have purchased the 700 lumen lamp and it is slightly brighter, half the runtime (approx 35 minutes), and has more of a flood beam. At a wall 15 yards away the 700 is alittle brighter.....at an object 50 yards away they appear the same, with the 700 having more flood. The 400 lumen lamp puts out alot of light for a stock flashlight and Im very satisfied with Wolf-Eyes quality/performance. 

Just my 2 cents....


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## Paul_in_Maryland (Nov 14, 2007)

For "sweeping" a room, I would think an LEO would need a floodlight. The Wolf Eyes 13V stock lamp would be the floodiest choice of all. 

I'm lucky: I live in a small rural town with no streetlights nearby. Since I don't have overcome urban washout, I get along fine with 1-cell and 2-cell incans.

In my Rattlesnake, I use a RICO Alpha 9 D36. It runs on two cells, it's the second-floodiest D36 (behind the WE 13V).

My one-cell incan is a WE Sniper with a DealExtreme 3.7V 7.5W lamp. The bulb is nearly unscrewed to defocus the beam, lighting up an entire width of sidewalk from two paces. It gets me between my home and the bus stop and through my branch-ridden backyard on dark mornings and dark evenings.


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## Taboot (Nov 16, 2007)

EvilPaul2112 said:


> Regarding the 700 lumen lamp:
> I use (2) Rattlesnake M90 (150R) rechargeables for work as a Cop. I still prefer the Lumens Factory 400 lumen lamp over the 700 lumen. The 150 batteries/extender are the perfect length and the 400 lumen lamp provides just short of 1 hour runtime to 50% output. I have purchased the 700 lumen lamp and it is slightly brighter, half the runtime (approx 35 minutes), and has more of a flood beam. At a wall 15 yards away the 700 is alittle brighter.....at an object 50 yards away they appear the same, with the 700 having more flood. The 400 lumen lamp puts out alot of light for a stock flashlight and Im very satisfied with Wolf-Eyes quality/performance.
> 
> Just my 2 cents....


 
Thanks for the "very" real world perspective. I didn't notice a 400 lumen lamp. Would you say that the 700 lumen is just "slightly brighter" than the stock 300lumen 12V lamp?

I'm still waiting for my parts, so I have only the stock 12V on CR123s to compare

Thanks again


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## SuRgE (Nov 16, 2007)

Anyone have experience with the Lumens Factory 450 lumen 9V running two 3.7 18650s in a M90?

I have tried the 12V 550 lumens but it eats up the primaries and has little run time on rc123a.


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## Paul5M (Nov 16, 2007)

SuRgE said:


> Anyone have experience with the Lumens Factory 450 lumen 9V running two 3.7 18650s in a M90?
> 
> I have tried the 12V 550 lumens but it eats up the primaries and has little run time on rc123a.



The LF EO-9L is an OK lamp. It's neither a flooder nor a thrower. It's a great indoor lamp, though.
For outdoors, I prefer a thrower such as MagLite and SureFire with turbo head. Here are my current setups for outdoors:
- SF G3 + SF KT2 + LF HO-M3T + 2x17500s (my pocket thrower) :thumbsup:
- MagLite 3C + 6-Cell MagnumStar + 2x18650s (for car camping) :thumbsup:
- WE M90 + LF EO-9L + 2x18650s (will be downgraded to HO-9L/SR-9L)


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## Taboot (Nov 17, 2007)

I received the EO-13 and rechargeable conversion kit. I went with the 3x 18650 (Wolf Eyes 2200mah) setup. I'm no expert so I won't attempt any sort of review. I will say that this setup is MUCH brighter than the 12V stock bulb that came with the M90X (4x CR123). It throws much further and offers much more useable spill light in my opinion. It simply lights up an entire dark room. In my opinion it is quite floody. 

I'm sure that the 5 to 10 minute at a time use and the long tube extension might make it impractical or unusable for some people such as law enforcement, EMT or S&R. I only use it to see if there are any deer or other interesting wildlife in the woods behind my house and to show off to friends who have a passing interest in flashlights. So the size and runtime don't really matter to me. 

I'm very satisfied with the beam pattern, but I'm no expert on this. To me, it compares favorably with other high-end light beam patterns I've seen on CPF. 

It was very simple to change the parts on the light. I haven't run down the batteries yet, so I have no comment to make on the charger/tailcap setup yet. 

Pacific Tactical Solutions was excellent to deal with for these parts and I highly recommend them. 

Thanks all for your comments and advice.


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## SuRgE (Nov 18, 2007)

Ditto TAboot!:laughing:

Received my 3x18650 conversion kit and agree with what you said. I actually was hoping it had more throw. I didn't think it was all that brighter overall than the 12V 550 lumens I had.

Since I want a rechargable 18650, I will try the 9V 450 lumen and run 2x18650. I am hoping for a bit more throw and it will be more comfortable in the hand since I won't need any extension.


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## cernobila (Nov 18, 2007)

Check out the difference in output between the EO-9L, P91 and the EO-13 in my sig line.......


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## SuRgE (Nov 18, 2007)

Nice pics! That answers my question. I'm gonna try the LF 9v 450L with two 18650s in my Rattle snake.


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## Taboot (Nov 18, 2007)

I would like to take some meaningful comparison beamshots of the 12V stock M90X bulb (w/4xcr123), the 13V W-E D36 bulb(3x18650) and the EO-13(3x18650). What is the current thinking on camera settings to get consistent shots for a decent comparison? I have a Kodak Easyshare 5.1MP digital camera. It has some manual setting features which I will figure out. 

Also, as hugely bright (to me) as the EO-13 is, is it possible to go any further with this light? Is an ROP or other hotwire MAGs brighter than this?

Thanks in advance if anyone feels like answering any of these questions.

Taboot


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## Glen C (Nov 19, 2007)

Taboot, I usually set the camera to manual and adjust it so the image approximately reflects the brightest flashlight. I then use the same setting for the less bright units, which come out blacker.

ROPs can be made more powerful than this unit and many are.


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## Taboot (Nov 19, 2007)

Thanks Glen C. I'm going to give it a try (beamshots). 

I've started looking into building an ROP light or some other MAG hotwire. It would be my first custom attempt, so I want to tackle something do-able and something that will be even brighter than the EO-13.

Thanks for all your help,

Taboot


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