# Big Hitters: BigLeef and Surefire M6



## DM51 (Jan 3, 2008)

*Big Hitters: BigLeef and Surefire M6 *

The arrival of the BigLeef system, with a neck fitting for Surefire ‘M’ heads, enables a close comparison to be made between popular hotwire bulbs and Surefire’s top-of-the-range M6 HOLA bulb, the MN21.

The following lights were chosen for comparison in this test:

*1. Surefire M6* (6x SF123A Lithium primaries, MN21 HOLA)

*2. BigLeef 2C-11* (2x BigLeef ‘C’ body, 2x AW ‘C’ Li-Ions, KT4 head, Fivemega MN Bi-Pin socket, WA 1111 bulb)

*3. BigLeef 3C-85* (3x BigLeef ‘C’ body, 3x AW ‘C’ Li-Ions, KT4 head, Fivemega MN Bi-Pin socket, WA 1185 bulb)

Details (with links) of where to obtain these lights and components are given below in this post. Some parts are difficult to obtain at the time of writing, but perseverence can bring results.


Top: BigLeef 3C-85
Center: BigLeef 2C-11
Below: Surefire M6








BigLeef 3C-85 component parts:






*Similarities*
The heads of the 3 lights are the same – the Surefire Millenium Turbohead (KT4). The filament height of each bulb was carefully adjusted to the optimum position. Variations in beam characteristics were therefore minimized if not eliminated – the only significant remaining variation was bulb output.

The ‘C’ Li-Ions drive the 2 hotwire bulbs hard; with their compact shape they allow for a shorter light than 18650s would, and with their extra capacity a longer run-time is achieved. Even the form factor is reasonably close to that of the M6, with the BigLeef 2-cell WA 1111 light being similar in size, just 1 inch longer but with a slimmer handle.

These two lights are not the only ones that could be compared to the Surefire M6. There are Mag mods and other creations which will rival the M6 for brightness and throw; but like the Surefire M6, these two BigLeef lights utilise top-quality components and are really classy lights in every way. 

The two BigLeef builds discussed here are also, of course, lego material – the flexibility is there to convert from one to the other quickly and easily. It would take less than 5 minutes to do this, with no tools or skills required. Many other combinations are in theory possible with the BigLeef system, but it is not the purpose of this post to list more than just these two. 


*Bulbs*
The Surefire MN21 is a 9-volt bulb, drawing ~5A from 6x SF123A (CR123A) Lithium primaries, configured 3s2p. With voltage sag, the operating voltage is ~7.2V. Surefire rate The MN21 at 500 lumens. However their method of rating LAs is very conservative, and you would need to nearly double that to produce a bulb lumen figure. It is at least 800 blm, probably nearer 1,000.

The Welch Allyn 01111 is a 6-volt / 3.35-amp / 100-hour bi-pin bulb, producing 465 bulb lumens at that factory rating. It is overdriven here to 7.2V and 3.80A. At this rating it outputs an estimated 800 blm, and bulb life will be ~10 hours.

_The _Welch Allyn_ 01185 is a 9.6-volt / 3.15-amp / 50-hour bi-pin bulb, producing 817 blm at that rating. _It is overdriven here to 10.8V and 3.35A. At this rating it outputs an estimated 1,200 blm, and bulb life will be ~12 hours.


*Batteries *
The M6 was loaded with 6x SF123A Lithium primaries. These had less than 1 minute of use at the time of the test, so they were at ~95% capacity.

The AW ‘C’ Li-Ion cells in the BigLeef lights were charged to 4.15V each. This is 95% capacity for Li-Ion cells.


*Beamshots*
All camera exposures were 2 secs at F2.8. The lights were aimed at the base of the left-hand of the 3 big trees in the photos. This tree is 95m away. The tree on the right is 80m away.

*Surefire M6 HOLA*







*BigLeef 2C-11*







*BigLeef 3C-85*







Rotating shot of the above 3 photos (many thanks to Daniel_sk for doing this):






Below is detail from the center of the above shots. Behind the 3 trees there is a 100m stretch of water. On the other side of the water there are more bushes and trees – these are 200m (220 yds, 660 ft) from the camera. In these zoom shots you can make out one of the pale-colored tree-trunks reflected in the water. 

*Surefire M6 HOLA (detail)*







*BigLeef 2C-11 (detail)*







*BigLeef 3C-85 (detail)*







*Verdict on beamshots*
The 3C-85 is the clear winner in output, as one would expect.

The difference between the 2C-11 and the M6 HOLA was so marginal that it is insignificant. I honestly couldn’t tell with the naked eye which was brighter, and it is by no means clear even from the beamshots. That in itself is an interesting result. 


*Cost*
Let’s look at the relative cost of these 3 lights.

*Surefire M6*
· Surefire M6 complete
· Total cost: $399.00

*BigLeef 2C-11*
· KT4 ($178, less sale of MN15 [$29] & MN16 [$31] = $118) 
· Fivemega bi-pin ceramic socket for MN lamp assembly ($46) 
· WA 1111 ($9) 
· BigLeef Tail, gray ($50.99) 
· 2 x BigLeef ‘C’ cell body, gray ($37.99 x 2 = $75.98) 
· BigLeef SF ‘M’ Neck, gray ($40.99) 
· 2 x AW protected ‘C’ Li-Ion cells ($22 x 2 = $44) 
· Total cost: $384.96

*BigLeef 3C-85*
· KT4 ($178, less sale of MN15 [$29] & MN16 [$31] = $118) 
· Fivemega bi-pin ceramic socket for MN lamp assembly ($46) 
· WA 1185 ($6) 
· BigLeef Tail, gray ($50.99) 
· 3 x BigLeef ‘C’ cell body, gray ($37.99 x 3 = $113.97) 
· BigLeef SF ‘M’ Neck, gray ($40.99) 
· 3 x AW protected ‘C’ Li-Ion cells ($22 x 3 = $66) 
· Total cost: $441.95

Please note that the above prices do not include shipping charges, or any discounts you may be able to obtain. They are a guide only.

As already stated above, some items may be out of stock and difficult to obtain.


*Advantages and disadvantages*

*Surefire M6*
Advantages
· Availability 
· Primary cells for greater reliability and shelf-life
· 3 fine LAs available – MN21 HOLA, MN20 LOLA, MN15 X-LOLA
· Tactical twisty tailcap
· Kits available to convert to WA 1111 and ‘C’ Li-Ion cells 
· M6-R rechargeable option currently in development by js
Disadvantages
· Expensive to run on primaries
· Expensive replacement LA
· Large diameter body size

*BigLeef 2C-11*
Advantages
· Similar size to M6 (~1 inch longer)
· Approx same brightness as M6 HOLA
· Approx same cost as M6, including all parts
· More than 2x the run-time
· Free lumens on rechargeables
· Cheap replacement bulb
· Just as tough and solid as M6
· Forward clicky tailcap
· Body diameter less than M6, will suit smaller hands
· Complete flexibility - other build/bulb possibilities 
Disadvantages
· Some parts not currently available
· Rechargeable option only

*Bigleef 3C-85*
Advantages
· Much brighter than M6 HOLA
· Nearly 3x the run-time
· Free lumens on rechargeables
· Cheap replacement bulb
· Just as tough and solid as M6
· Forward clicky tailcap
· Body diameter less than M6, will suit smaller hands
· Complete flexibility - other build/bulb possibilities 
Disadvantages
· Some parts not currently available
· Rechargeable option only
· ~3 inches longer than M6
· Extra initial $$ outlay

*Alternatives*
Mag11, Mag85 
· Much cheaper – good bang for buck
· Beams will be different with Mag reflectors
· Run-time differences (depending on batteries used)


*Conclusions*
I keep an M6-CB by my bedside, fitted with the MN21 HOLA and Surefire SF123A cells. Nothing would make me change from this. A “bump in the night” is the one situation when, if I need a light, I might REALLY need it. I would not want to have to find myself with flat batteries in such a situation.

One or other of the BigLeef lights, the 2C-11 or 3C-85 (as I have called them) are ideal for heavy-duty everyday use when you need a light with big, big power. 

There are other hotwires with greater output, but they are either bigger in size, or they do not have that very useful 45+ minute run-time.

These BigLeef system components and the SF KT4 shock-absorbing head make a top-quality combination. The resulting lights are beautiful to handle, and hugely impressive in action.


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## powernoodle (Jan 3, 2008)

A+ on that one. Thats how they are supposed to be done.


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## Kiessling (Jan 3, 2008)

Perfect review ! :thumbsup:


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## Daniel_sk (Jan 3, 2008)

That's a TOP class review. Thank you.


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## DM51 (Jan 3, 2008)

Thanks for the kind words, guys, and particular thanks to Daniel for the 'gif' rotating image, which I have not put in correctly somehow - I'll try and figure out how to do it properly tomorrow. I have seen it working, and it is an extremely useful addition. It should work if you click on it.

Edit - I have managed to get the 'gif' working (thanks again to Daniel_sk)


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## Lips (Jan 3, 2008)

Very Nice Review :twothumbs


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## pete7226 (Jan 3, 2008)

Great comparo, I was wondering where my FM11 stood compared to the M6, now I know.


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## Leef (Jan 3, 2008)

Dave, thanx for the detailed review of your BigLeef based hotwire lights compared to the M6. I'm trying to learn a bit about world-beater hotwires and look forward to collaborating in the creation of a few, based around the BigLeef System, or using custom Leef parts. Stay tuned!


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## Paul5M (Jan 3, 2008)

Great review :twothumbs

Looks like the MN21 is still the thrower king 
My ideal thrower: dimmer spill, brighter spot 

I think the 1185 deserves a larger reflector, 4", 6", ... :shrug:


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## woodrow (Jan 3, 2008)

Wow! Great review...and about lights I have never seen before. A great HID alternative. Thanks!


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## BSBG (Jan 3, 2008)

Excellent review.

I was tempted by the Big Leef, but in the initial confusion about color I ended up missing out on any gray parts and decided to wait for the next round.

An MN16 or LF EO M3T would give another option for the Big Leef, but output is not on par with the 1111 or MN21, being closer to the MN20 M6 LOLA. You could skip the FM bipin adapter, but you end up with a more expensive lamp assembly. 

I guess that 's the beauty of the whole thing - lots of options!


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## Brozneo (Jan 3, 2008)

That is an excellent review! To me in the photos the MN21 vs the WA1111 the WA1111 looks like it has a bigger hotspot with brighter spill.... I use FM Bi-Pin adapter in my stock M6 to run a WA1111 and it's excellent - a whiter beam and IMO it's running maybe slightly brighter than the MN21


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## Manzerick (Jan 3, 2008)

Awesome review!! What easy and flexable options we now have for the M6!!!!


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## Patriot (Jan 4, 2008)

Gosh!!! That is so neat! I haven't been that excited about incans for a while but this literally gave me a huge smile. 

I sure like the 11. It's always been one of my favorites, but that's the coolest 11 I've ever seen.

Thank you for the text book review. This was awesome.


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## FlashSpyJ (Jan 4, 2008)

Nice review! :thumbsup:


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## softfeel (Jan 4, 2008)

Very nice review. 

I agree with you. It rocks!


I have the BigLeef 3C-85 but I'm usually running it with Lumens Factory HO-M6R. Very bright, long runtime and I can charge the cells to a higher voltage without overdring as much as with the WA1185.


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## Team Member (Jan 4, 2008)

Very nice to see the difference in total cost for the lights.

Excellent review!! :twothumbs


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## souptree (Jan 4, 2008)

Fantastic job! Thank you very much for putting that together!


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## Icarus (Jan 4, 2008)

:wow: great review! :twothumbs ... :thanks:


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## cmacclel (Jan 4, 2008)

Great review :thumbsup:



Mac


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## skillet (Jan 4, 2008)

Another torturing thread that includes a light I can't seem to acquire... The M6 Guardian.. 
Man, if I could get my three teenagers to lay off the groceries a few weeks and my wife to get amnesia the next week (after the mail came) just maybe... Until then, I will just keep mopping the spittle off the keyboard...

Gordon aka:skillet

PS: Great review and beam shots...


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## brightnorm (Jan 7, 2008)

Have you (or anyone) had a chance to compare the 3C-85 with the Boxer24 (HID)? If not, can you give an educated guess of the results?

Also, I'm concerned about safety using LiONs in general, and especially when using the big C size LiONs. I assume they're protected but I'm not sure what (inexpensive) charger can be used safely and simply.

Brightnorm


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## cmacclel (Jan 7, 2008)

brightnorm said:


> Have you (or anyone) had a chance to compare the biggest Leef with the Boxer24 (HID)? If not, can you give an educated guess of the results?
> 
> Brightnorm



The Boxer would be a couple hundred lumens brighter and maybe 10 minutes longer runtime. This is if the Leef setup is using the 1185 lamp.

Mac


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## brightnorm (Jan 7, 2008)

Thanks,

BN


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## DM51 (Jan 8, 2008)

Thank you all for your kind comments!

Brightnorm, I don't know the Boxer or how long it takes to power up to 100%. HIDs can take up to 30 seconds to reach full power, and this is a consideration when deciding on HID vs. incan.

AW's 'C' Li-Ions are protected. They are perfectly safe as long as you treat them properly, and in fact it would require extraordinary negligence or abuse before you would be likely to have any problem with them. You would notice a significant drop-off in performance well before any safety problem arose.


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## criollo (Jan 8, 2008)

Great review !!

Nice to see the cost differentiation of the setups and also the useful links.

Thanks for sharing. :thumbsup:


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## BruceD (Jan 8, 2008)

Thanks for the enlightening review!


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## adamlau (Jan 12, 2008)

Just waiting on FM and AW now :sigh: ...


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## NextLight (Jan 12, 2008)

This is a "Review of the Year" Class review... and it is not even the middle of January yet! Very nice job, DM51.

Most of the Leef legos appear to be in stock at Lighthound at the moment... I may be sorry I posted that ;-) (Live links in DM51's review )

Since I already have spare Surefire M turbo heads, C-M Turbo adapter(s), M and C series switches, and many lamps, it appears all I would need is the FM Ceramic Socket (already requested) three Leef "C sized C series legos, and three of AW's 'C' batts. So for ~$175 or so, I can have a long running, solid, flexible Hotwire, Mil spec backup for my M6(-R). Sweet!


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## milkyspit (Jan 12, 2008)

Gotta say, DM51, this really is one heck of a review. Great photos, lots of information... AWESOME!

:bow: :bow: :bow:


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## brunt_sp (Jan 16, 2008)

Great review. I'm still drawn to the M6 especially with the proposed rechargeable option from JS using 3 X 17670. In the meantime there is also the option of using RCR123s and LF HO-M6R, MN61 and I guess the WA1185.


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## stienke (Jul 26, 2014)

I know it's a old thread but , *3. BigLeef 3C-85 (3x BigLeef ‘C’ body, 3x AW ‘C’ Li-Ions, KT4 head, Fivemega MN Bi-Pin socket, WA 1185 bulb) , for sale???????*


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