# Big Jim (PAR36 Lantern) Hotwire List



## lctorana (Aug 25, 2008)

Had an expensive disaster last night.

First a bit of history. My own little corner of the candlepower world is PAR36 sealed-beam lanterns (epecially the Australian version of the Eveready Model 101C - the "Big Jim".)

I started with a standard, old-model with the *4546* bulb. Heavy-duty Zinc-Carbon battery.

My next purchase was the brighter, newer-model with the *4547* bulb, and a SHD Zinc-Chloride battery - more than *double* the lux on a ceiling-bounce test.

Third step was to use a *H7550* with a 6V SLA battery - the "HaloJim" - more than *triple *the lux.

Then, after joining CPF and reading about the Roar of the Pelican, I built the "Roar of the Big Jim", with 7xSubC cells plus a 1ohm NTC, driving a 30W GE *4515* stage lamp. *Eighteen* times the lux.

The next step was to upgrade the Roar of the Big Jim to a *H4515* - now *28* times the lux.

The next step up was to the *H7604* - 12.8V 50W, driven by 14xSubC cells plus a 2.2ohm NTC, which I dubbed "The Tractor Beam", because of the bulb's intended use as a spotlight for nighttime tractor use. We are now seeing more than *50* times the lux of the 4546. At the last Melbourne meet, I threw down the gauntlet to challenge "any HID present" for brightness and throw - with honours even!

But on with the horsepower race.

My next step was to build another battery with 14xSubC cells of higher capacity plus a 1ohm NTC, and modify a Big Jim to add a buffering relay.
I'm moving into big-power, beyond the reach of the stock switch.

Then I went with a GE *4500* (13V 85W) runway light, which took me to more than *70* times the lux.

Starting to get nervous now.

With the addition of a GE *4509* (13V 100W) arcraft landing light, the "AeroJim" delivers an eye-watering *126* times the lux of the 4546 original.

Googling some aircraft forums recommended me the legendary *Q4509* - which is also 13V 100W, but was found to be about double the brightness of the 4509 by the aircraft boys, and at 100 hours v 25 hours, should stand up to some serious overdriving.

OK, so I lashed out and bought a genuine GE Q4509.

Cost me more than A$50.

Nervous, and excited.

The NTC was cold, and the battery had been run down a little.

Hooked it up to the AeroJim in place of the 4509, and switched on. 

Watched the lux climb as the NTC warmed up, and 

Just.

Like.

That.


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## Glen C (Aug 25, 2008)

LC, that was great read until the  at the end, I felt for you then. Sometimes the pioneers end up with arrows through them 


There should be a thread on your escapades with Dolphins and Big Jims


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## Bimmerboy (Aug 26, 2008)

Ugghhh... at $50, that definitely hurts, lc. :candle:

Any preliminary ideas on why it burned out? It _should've_ been a success, right? 

Just fishing... was the "Q" new or used?


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## lctorana (Aug 27, 2008)

Brand new.

Just out of the pristine, OEM-sealed, yellow-and-blue genuine GE box.

But, for the record, it was fairly and squarely my fault. Experienced readers would have picked up on the fact that I used *fourteen *cells to power a *thirteen *volt lamp.

Even with the nice gentle ramp-up of the NTC, that is clearly just too much overdrive. Evidently I was just lucky with the 4500 & 4509, or the Q4509 is fragile.

But because (a) it has a 100-hour service life and (b) it is made for rough-and-bumpy aircraft landing use, I was hoping I'd get away with it.

Sigh.


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## SafetyBob (Aug 27, 2008)

Yes, I did the math after you posted it but figured that even though you used that many batteries, I figured the amount of power the bulb would have drawn would have pulled the voltage down substantially. Evidently I and you were wrong. Believe me I am writing this stuff down. My bulbs are on the way, but I need to get some more rechargeables before I can power stuff up. 

So how many do you think you could have powered it up safety with? 

Do you think if you would have paralled some additional NTC's that would have done the trick? 

And finally, is there or are there certain host lights you could recommend for PAR 36 lights? 

Bob E.


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## YAK-28 (Aug 27, 2008)

this sounds good, how does the beam compare to a mag* or custom mag* headed light as to throw/flood and spot/spill? how big and heavy is it with all the batteries?


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## lctorana (Aug 27, 2008)

SafetyBob said:


> Yes, I did the math after you posted it but figured that even though you used that many batteries, I figured the amount of power the bulb would have drawn would have pulled the voltage down substantially. Evidently I and you were wrong.


Yes, I did make exactly this assumption, and yes, wrongly. Here's why:
Typically, Sub-C cells are made for high-drain use, and hold up well under load.
With the 4500, I was getting 16.8 volts at the bulb.



SafetyBob said:


> So how many do you think you could have powered it up safety with?


My own rule of thumb is to use the same number of cells as the bulb design voltage. This equates to a 20-25% overdrive, as NiCad/NiMH cells are 1.2-1.25 volts.
But I used 14 cells, because it was cheap and convenient to use two pre-made 7-cell packs.



SafetyBob said:


> Do you think if you would have paralled some additional NTC's that would have done the trick?


No, that's going the wrong way. In this case, as it happens, I needed MORE resistance in circuit, not less. Or, as I said, less volts.



SafetyBob said:


> And finally, is there or are there certain host lights you could recommend for PAR 36 lights?


 

I see you are from USA, so in that case I have 4 recommendations, in no particular order:

Energizer 9101IND (current model "Big Jim")
"Big Beam" Model 664
"Big Beam" Model 666
RayOVac RAY301K
Others can chip in with recomendations for old USA models; I believe Eveready, RayOVac and Burgess all made good ones, but don't really know.


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## lctorana (Aug 27, 2008)

YAK-28 said:


> this sounds good, how does the beam compare to a mag* or custom mag* headed light as to throw/flood and spot/spill? how big and heavy is it with all the batteries?


 
For throw, there is just no comparison with a Maglite. We're in a totally different class here.

Throw from a sealed-beam lantern with a "spot" bulb is at least a mile.

Yes, a mile. 1760 yards.

Even for the two-watt, 17-lumen standard job.

And the hotwires throw even further...
(I have a 64610-fitted 6D Mag, and the "Tractor Beam" above leaves it for dead in every department. And I have gone two huge steps beyond that now...)

As for "spill", well, if you use a spotlight bulb, there's effectively none. Just a pencil beam of light. Or you can go with a "flood light", that is all flood (or scatter, to be precise!) and no throw, or you can have a wedge-shaped-beam, or an amber-lensed foglight, or, well you get the picture.


How big?

The head is about 5" round or square, and the battery is about a 5x4x2.5" brick. How heavy depends entirely on what sort of cells and how many you fill it with. How long depends on the model - if you go with the ones with the red flasher, they can be up to about 10" long all-up.


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## SafetyBob (Aug 27, 2008)

lctorana, thank you so much for the information. I have a couple of "big" incan [email protected] too and I now realize to get really, really good throw I must get one of FiveMega's 2 1/2 or 3 inch head/reflectors. The 2 inch head really does limit the flashlight alot even though there is nobody in my zip code with as powerful or bright [email protected] as I have!!

Your info on the spot bulbs is very good to know also. I suspected that at least the spot type bulbs would either be really, really good and give spetacular throw or I would be wasting my money. Now I know. 

Bob E.


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## Burgess (Aug 27, 2008)

to Lctorana --


I always enjoy reading your posts. :wave:



Just wish that this story had a happier ending.




_


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## lctorana (Aug 27, 2008)

Glen C said:


> There should be a thread on your escapades with Dolphins and Big Jims


Since you ask, here is a summary:






_Please let me know if you can't see a picture above!_

The Volts and Amps are manufacturer design volts only. Note the first three bulbs won't tolerate any overdrive.

The beam pattern is the size and shape of the hotspot. There is some spill around this, but that's not counted.

MSCP ("Mean Spherical Candlepower") relates to the brightness of the hotspot.

I have calculated the Torch Lumens in two ways: from a ceiling-bounce lux test, and from steradian calculations extrapolated from the MSCP, followed by a conservative hotrating and reflector derating. The result is the likely torch lumens you could reasonably expect with my chosen levels of real-world overdrive.

Note that:
(a) I have never seen published data on the 4500
(b) the Q4509 went  before I could measure the lux
(c) I haven't yet plucked up the courage to try a 4596


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## Pher (Sep 13, 2008)

Kind of going off topic, but how did you encase the batteries with your light?


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## lctorana (Sep 14, 2008)

Empty the dead cells out of an old lantern battery, and solder the new ones in.


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## Juggernaut (Sep 14, 2008)

How did I miss this tread for so long? Sorry about the . If it makes you feel any better I recently bought two Bigbeams and after turning one on for 30 seconds it’s bulb blew:mecry:. That sucks, but it wasn’t over I turned the other on and it’s bulb instaflashed!:scowl: They were both brand new and I was using an old HD zinc battery I had put tons of hours on already. I have heard of the Q4509 before and would probably buy it to have some fun with, but I already have the 150 watt Par46 4049 bulb, and at only 15 hours life this thing is so absurdly overdriven stock on a SLA battery I don’t think I’ll ever get anything brighter. Heck my 1000 watt GE bulb being under driven by a slight 27 volts compared to it’s needed 28 volts can’t even out throw this thing "4-21-09, not anymore:devil: !"


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## Juggernaut (Sep 15, 2008)

You had mentioned that the first 3 bulbs can not be over driven. That includes the H7550. The desired voltage is 6, however as we know that’s not what is being delivered by the battery. So my question is how many volts does a charged 6 volt SLA make? Would it not have to be like 7 to work? I know that most 12 volt SLA batteries run at 13.5 volts to power their bulb. I was wondering because I was going to run one of these 8 watt H7550 bulbs of two parallels of 5Ds making 7.5 volts. I’m not trying to overdrive it but it’s either 6 volts “way under driving:sigh:” or 7.5. Will this cook the bulb? Just thought it would make my 10D little bit more practical then drastically under driving it’s 30 watt bulb with 10Ds “they don’t like 2.5 ah draw”


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## lctorana (Sep 18, 2008)

Juggernaut said:


> So my question is how many volts does a charged 6 volt SLA make?


6.3V



Juggernaut said:


> Would it not have to be like 7 to work?


No.



Juggernaut said:


> I know that most 12 volt SLA batteries run at 13.5 volts to power their bulb.


Not true. 12V SLA batteries run at 12.6V. You're thinking of lead-acid battery voltage while the battery is on-charge, and torches are rarely used in this condition. The exception is of course plug-in spotlights, but these tend to use H3 or H4 auto headlight bulbs which are of course designed for use while the ignition is on.



Juggernaut said:


> I was wondering because I was going to run one of these 8 watt H7550 bulbs of two parallels of 5Ds making 7.5 volts. I’m not trying to overdrive it but it’s either 6 volts “way under driving:sigh:” or 7.5. Will this cook the bulb?


I'm not sure. It should be OK - after all, Eveready do still make a 7.5V lantern battery with 10 F cells in 5s2p config, and that probably runs a H7550.

But I can' promise you you won't flash the bulb. If you use zinc-chloride cells, you should be OK, but if you use alkalines, the risk is there. And, of course, if you use NiCad or rested NiMH, I can guarantee you will be 100% safe, unless the bulb is faulty. Unfortunately, H7550s are expensive.

One tip - make triply sure the switch is OFF before you connect the battery, as not doing that is the easiest way to flash the bulb.



Juggernaut said:


> Just thought it would make my 10D little bit more practical then drastically under driving it’s 30 watt bulb with 10Ds “they don’t like 2.5 ah draw”


Yes, it would. Pity there's nothing between the 8W H7550 and the 30W 4515, isn't it? 

_Sorry for not replying sooner._


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## Juggernaut (Sep 19, 2008)

Thanks a bunch for replying before I left. When I come back I’ll have to devise a way to get this to work. I’d type more but I’m on my way out the door. Again thanks for your time. Some day I hope to know as much as you:thumbsup:!


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## chuck614 (Sep 26, 2008)

I was so smitten by JetskiMark's mod of the Volkano, I had to build one myself. The Volkano is designed for the par36, so the GE4596 fit perfectly. The battery well accomodates the two 3s lipoly batteries from TrueRC with room to spare. The 250w GE4596 was able to handle the lipolies right off the charger. At 28v, that makes for a little less than 10A, so I replaced the stock slide switch with a newer one that still fit the cutout.
If you specialize in par36, you've got to do this easy and powerful mod. I guess I'll never win another Volkano on eBay after this post. :laughing:


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## lctorana (Sep 26, 2008)

chuck614 said:


> I was so smitten by JetskiMark's mod of the Volkano, I had to build one myself. The Volkano is designed for the par36, so the GE4596 fit perfectly. The battery well accomodates the two 3s lipoly batteries from TrueRC with room to spare. The 250w GE4596 was able to handle the lipolies right off the charger. At 28v, that makes for a little less than 10A, so I replaced the stock slide switch with a newer one that still fit the cutout.
> If you specialize in par36, you've got to do this easy and powerful mod. I guess I'll never win another Volkano on eBay after this post. :laughing:


I'll google Volkano to see what you're talking about. Edit - found it.
_(The VolKano is a 4F-in-tin-box PAR36 lamp, similar to the better-known Big Beam Model 166.)_

The 4596 is indeed on my list - see table in post #11 above, but I intend to (a) get successful with the Q4509 first, and (b) decide on a means of powering my 4596. At that current, I will use a relay to buffer the switch.

I have considered 8 x Emoli cells, 28 x SubC NiCads or 27 x SubC NiMHs. All 3 will fit in a 8F battery shell, so are workable - the problem with all three approaches is the ruinous cost of the batteries.

One day a decent deal will appear, and I will be in business.

One thing is for certain - a fuse will have to be fitted in such a monster battery.


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## Juggernaut (Oct 2, 2008)

lctorana said:


> I'll google Volkano to see what you're talking about. Edit - found it.
> _(The VolKano is a 4F-in-tin-box PAR36 lamp, similar to the better-known Big Beam Model 166.)_
> 
> The 4596 is indeed on my list - see table in post #11 above, but I intend to (a) get successful with the Q4509 first, and (b) decide on a means of powering my 4596. At that current, I will use a relay to buffer the switch.
> ...


 
That’s so cute! Anyways I remember reading about this crazy mod somewhere when I first joined CPF and can’t find it now. I was wondering if anyone knows were it is? 
: It was two mods in one thread 1. The same 250 watt bulb in a Bigbeam lantern with a RayOvac sportsmen head. But that’s not what I’m interested in.

2. The light I’m trying to find. It was based on the duel out put Bigbeam “something” it just went out of production. It looked just like the 266 but with a different head that had a lens and a reflector that held a small secondary bulb and a main bulb. Well anyways he filled the box with sub-c’s I think and replaced the bulb with a 450 watt one!! Aha there is 1000 watt lights out their but this thing was the same size as the volcano mod:devil:! Anyone knows were this thread is located it would greatly help:twothumbs.


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## Chrontius (Oct 3, 2008)

Never seen the beast, Juggernaut.

I am curious about a different one, though -- what can you fit in the Big Beam model 266? 

Would a standard 12v 7Ah SLA work? 
Too big or small? 
4416 or H7604?


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## Juggernaut (Oct 3, 2008)

Chrontius said:


> Never seen the beast, Juggernaut.
> 
> I am curious about a different one, though -- what can you fit in the Big Beam model 266?
> 
> ...


 
I have a 7.2 ah SLA hocked up to my avatar light “but that’s because it is on the outside and is literally built so that it can be screwed on and off. The BigBeam 266 can not fit the 7-8 AH SLA battery because it is a tad bit to long:shakehead. Anyways I’m pretty sure that the battery holder is divided in the middle to separate the two 6 volt lantern batteries, thus unless you want to cut it out “it’s metal” then you would need two separate batteries. “They do sell 4.5 ah 6 volt spring top SLA batteries if you look in the right places.” 2. You have to be carful with buying bulbs for the BigBeam models because the current factory bulb holders use a type of metal retaining ring and these will not except all size bulbs “note all Par36s should be the same size but some are a couple of millimeters larger in diameter which actually do not fit inside. “It has happened to me.” However some older models have a piece of metal that that fits on the outside that has a screw on it’s base that when tightened secures the bulb “these seem to fit all par 36 size bulbs. Well the ones I have tried at least”.


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## Chrontius (Oct 3, 2008)

I was thinking of starting with a new lantern, so I don't mind cutting away some hullmetal.

Can you post pictures of how you got the SLA brick attached to your avatar light? Otherwise, I may go for a 266, as I've got a couple 6v SLAbs sitting around gathering dust.


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## Juggernaut (Oct 3, 2008)

Chrontius said:


> I was thinking of starting with a new lantern, so I don't mind cutting away some hullmetal.
> 
> Can you post pictures of how you got the SLA brick attached to your avatar light? Otherwise, I may go for a 266, as I've got a couple 6v SLAbs sitting around gathering dust.


 



30 watt RayOvac



How it’s mounted 



The overall height of the 7.2ah SLA is short enough, narrow enough but probably to long to fit in the snug bay of a 211 or 266 BigBeam. Make sure to measure the SLA so it is not longer then 2x 6 volt 529 



Rarer old style screw type bulb holder. VS. New style metal ring style “where not all bulbs fit”.


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## Juggernaut (Oct 3, 2008)

Found it "it's 400 watts not 450: http://candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?p=2494315


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## mr.squatch (May 16, 2010)

Cheapest Q I've found yet. Still painful if a poof, but not fifty bucks painful  


http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/elpages/landinglites.php


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## mr.squatch (May 16, 2010)

I simply must have one of these, have a couple obscure hosts I think would work out nicely. I have a couple questions for those who may know. 

Some lighting places list two different 4509's, one listed as "halogen" and one listed as "incandescent" Both are around the same price and stats, curious if one is bigger/badder/better than the other? 

I want a pencil beam, I believe the Q is listed at 7x7. Another is listed at 3x3, I may have to get one of those as well. Curious if 7x7 is going to give me the result I am looking for. 

I plan to use SLA batteries for now. I have several other types I could put together to lighten it up a bit once I figure out my dream bulb. Curious what needs to be in place to ensure safety and longevity. I know my other spotlights all have inline fuses, if so what size? Also I've read of NTC's which I am not very educated on. Any info about the useage and benefits of such would be greatly appreciated. 

i recently sold a bunch of lights, and my heart hurts because of it. This project seems like a pretty cheap and impressive one, I'm pretty excited. Thanks guys for all the good info. 

g


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## Bimmerboy (May 19, 2010)

mr.squatch said:


> Cheapest Q I've found yet. Still painful if a poof, but not fifty bucks painful
> 
> 
> http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/elpages/landinglites.php


How's about the Martek 4509Q at half the GE price? 
Martek claims to be a longtime military supplier. Can anyone vouch for their quality? I've only just begun to research sealed beams, and have no idea.

EDIT: Thanks, Mr. Squatch for not only bumping this thread, but also linking to aircraftspruce, as it somehow, and finally sparked me onto the proper track toward planning my dream hotwire, which will now be based on a PAR-XX platform (and JimmyM X1 regulated).

EDIT 2: Even BIGGER thanks to LCT for starting this thread in the first place, and the helpful spreadsheet! Almost two years later, and it's inspiring the birth of a high-wattage, mini-monster thrower. 

Getting excited about this.


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## mr.squatch (May 22, 2010)

No problemo Bim, hopefully somebody has a simple explaination of NTC's and buffers for me so I can get mine in the works too  

g


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## JimmyM (May 22, 2010)

OK. I've found the thread.
An NTC is a poor man's softstarter. Effective and cheap, but not the route I'd take. Personally I like to use PWM. It's super efficient and doesn't waste energy.

Are there any figures for overdrive-ability for the Q4509?
You have 3 options:
1) Use the SLA and be happy with an OK bright light.
2) Use a 13.2V NiMH pack and an NTC to take the edge off a fresh pack.
3) Get a used PWM softstarter from someone.

Of course building a PWM softstarter/regulator isn't all that hard if it doesn't have to be small.


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## A380 (May 23, 2010)

Well, I'm a totally new to the incan world but this thread has encourage me to start.
By now I have on the way an old style BigBeam and a GE Q4509; hopefully they are going to arrive mext week. I prefered the GE over the Martek lamp becouse we use it at work (but not this part number).
I understand that a softstarter is used to keep down the initial high amps that gets to the lamp, corect?.
As far as I know you get more or less amps depending on the voltage, so couldn't be used a potentiometer to make a sort of softatart?.
Anyway, building a PWM softstarter/regulator could be a nice project (have no idea how to start with). Who could help with it?


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## JimmyM (May 23, 2010)

A380 said:


> Well, I'm a totally new to the incan world but this thread has encourage me to start.
> By now I have on the way an old style BigBeam and a GE Q4509; hopefully they are going to arrive next week. I preferred the GE over the Martek lamp because we use it at work (but not this part number).
> I understand that a softstarter is used to keep down the initial high amps that gets to the lamp, correct?.
> As far as I know you get more or less amps depending on the voltage, so couldn't be used a potentiometer to make a sort of softatart?.
> Anyway, building a PWM softstarter/regulator could be a nice project (have no idea how to start with). Who could help with it?


There are a lot of ways to build a soft start circuit. I prefer PWM, but there's a guy that uses a linear method that employs an FET whose gate is controlled by an resistor and capacitor to slow down its turn on. The FET takes a blast of heat, but it can take it, so he says.
There's already a lot of threads regarding soft-starters and PWM. Do a search for them. Read them all and you'll see why a potentiometer won't work. Too much power. It would be incinerated.
These lights are not all that powerful. generally ~10A or less for the 100W models. So a linear FET or PWM should work fine. Your voltages are quite reasonable, so your selection of components is rather large. I've already got several projects in the works already so I can't take on another. I just built a regulator for a guy with a 400W 36V light that fits in a KIU socket base. An then there's the JM-PhD-X1 I'm working on.


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## mr.squatch (May 23, 2010)

Thanks for the info Jimmy. I think I'll do the nimh pack like you suggested. It'll just add quite a bit to the budget lol. Problem with the search function here is that it won't find 3 letter words like PWM and NTC  I'll keep digging and see what I can find. 

g


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## A380 (May 23, 2010)

Thanks for your answer JimmyM.
I've been looking through google and found this page http://www.ametherm.com/ntc-thermistor-probes/what_is_an_ntc_thermistor.htm with interesting information about NTC. If you click on top of the page "inrush current limiters" there is also a FAQ about this.
In few words it seems this component has a higher resistance when cold, so less current to the lamp. As it heats up goes it down. So it's a sort of cheap softstarter. Anyway, after using it, it have to cool down to have the performance of a soft-start.
Don't know yet if I'm going to use NiMh or IMR cells (depends on the space I have in the lantern) but I think a NiMh pack would be cheaper.


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## JimmyM (May 23, 2010)

mr.squatch said:


> Thanks for the info Jimmy. I think I'll do the nimh pack like you suggested. It'll just add quite a bit to the budget lol. Problem with the search function here is that it won't find 3 letter words like PWM and NTC  I'll keep digging and see what I can find.
> 
> g


Use the google search function here at CPF. It will allow 3 letter searches.


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## Raoul_Duke (May 23, 2010)

I'm Glad this thread got bumped as I plan to use FiveMega's 4.5" Par 36 Mag head with one of JimmyM's Fantastic Regulators, and was wondering about different lamps.

I know it will end up looking like a crazy big Mag ( I'll probably use a 6D), but I love the Idea of a far reaching pencil beam...so it seems like Good Fun

I had basically Googled all I can on these, and there isn't too much info..at least not on overdriving, but FiveMega has hit the 4509 with 4 x IMR cells, so I'm guessing 16.4V peak ( My IMRs usually settle to 4.1V fairly soon after charging,) and I guess under load they drop quite quick also...So I was wondering what to set the regulator at So any V lamp readings taken on these would be good to hear.

I had read, and thought of getting the Q4509, as the extra Lamp life and increased rated output was appealing, but I guess it pops easier, and I do wonder if an overdriven 4509 is better than a Q4509 driven at spec, as it seems much higher and 

...but also wanted to discuss some of the beam characteristics of the Par 36 lamps..4509, and lower wattage lamps.

I can see me doing all kinds of fun stuff like 6V lamps on 2D mags etc.

I could look at the 24V lamps, but will stick to the 100W for now, unless there is a 150W out there. ( but cant find one in the ~12V range)

So what are some of the better or prefered Par-36's, with regards to nice beams, A nice pencil beam seems fun...it would be good to have it quite far reacing so I think a realy fine spot may be good/ fun, although If I can have reach and a bit of spill it wouldnt be too bad.

Also is there a big variation on different manufacturers of the same lamp Numbers I have seen dotted about the web?

I'm in the UK I can find the 4509 here but seem to be two different types of the 4509, the one here is cheaper than this one.  
What does the 'X' stand for with the slightly more expensive one?


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## Chrontius (May 24, 2010)

I found a schematic for the capacitor/resistor/FET based soft start circuit, which I think I will share here for the convenience of the forums:

https://www.candlepowerforums.com/posts/3299403&postcount=8


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## JimmyM (May 24, 2010)

He shows the use of the 3206 FET. But if you're never going to exceed 24V, then you can use the IRF1324. It has lower resistance and higher current carrying capability. However, either, as well as MANY MANY others will work too.


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## JimmyM (May 24, 2010)

Raoul_Duke said:


> I'm Glad this thread got bumped as I plan to use FiveMega's 4.5" Par 36 Mag head with one of JimmyM's Fantastic Regulators, and was wondering about different lamps.


That thing looks NUTS! Nothing says "This thing means business" like a 4.5" head on a 6D. Of course you could go comical and use a few extenders too.

Regarding the regulator position. You don't *need* to put it under a KIU base. I'm not sure how hot it will get in there, but the KIU base will help protect it from radiant heat.
I imagine the Q4509 has less overhead because it's a quartz lamp and inherently runs hotter anyway.
In the first page of this htread I believe there's a chart with beam angle, lumens, etc.


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## A380 (Jun 21, 2010)

I want to thanks all poeple who post in this thread lovecpf
Finally I did it with a Q4509. No regulator, no NTC.
https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/279779


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## YAK-28 (Jun 22, 2010)

I hope I'm not reaching to far off with this question, but would it be a benefit to have "heatsink" head like fm's 4.5 over a "big beam" ish stock type when trying some of the aircraft landing light mods? I thinking led mods need the heatsink, but what about the incandescent mods? Do they needed the heatsinking for performance?

please move or delete this if this in the wrong thread.


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## Bimmerboy (Jun 22, 2010)

Why, in fact, yes! They DO benefit from finning.

One CPF'er around here explained part of the answer by relating it to cooking fish. You see, the reason why the fins have to be removed when you cook fish, is that they dissipate heat so well. If you don't remove the fins, the fish won't heat through.

Now reverse the equation, and apply the laws of Thermodynamics. When the fish is alive, and swimming, it has to get rid of it's body heat from all that activity. The fins transfer the heat to the water.

We want to apply these principles to incan bulbs because, like fish, they are happier when run cool... preferably underdriven by a good few volts.

Hopefully, some of the experts will chime in on this.


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## JimmyM (Jun 23, 2010)

It's not the bulb itself that benefits from cooling. It's everything else around it. We're adding electrical energy to MAKE heat to illuminate the filament. If we cool it down, it produces less light. If it's running so hot that it doesn't last long, don't run it so hot. Don't try to heat sink it for the sake of cooling the bulb. That's like turning the air conditioner on in the winter because the heat is set too high.
It's the stuff around it that suffers from the heat.

I still don't understand the fish fins thing. Where would they be dissipating the heat TO? The oven? The air in the oven is what's cooking the fish. In that case the fins would make the fish cook faster.



Bimmerboy said:


> Why, in fact, yes! They DO benefit from finning.
> 
> One CPF'er around here explained part of the answer by relating it to cooking fish. You see, the reason why the fins have to be removed when you cook fish, is that they dissipate heat so well. If you don't remove the fins, the fish won't heat through.
> 
> ...


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## Bimmerboy (Jun 23, 2010)

Hi, Jimmy. I was kidding. Couldn't resist the tease. :devil:

Had YAK asked about chip weevils, _then_ we woulda' been talkin' serious stuff!


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## JimmyM (Jun 23, 2010)

Sorry, Bimmer. I didn't detect the "tone" of your message.
RE: Chip weevils. Serious business.


Bimmerboy said:


> Hi, Jimmy. I was kidding. Couldn't resist the tease. :devil:
> 
> Had YAK asked about chip weevils, _then_ we woulda' been talkin' serious stuff!


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## YAK-28 (Jun 24, 2010)

I was asking because I'm thinking about trying to upgrade an older big beam light. I've got one of Fm's new 4.5 heads on order and that looks so much more "heavy duty" compared to the older big beam lights. I was thinking the older light weren't heavy duty enough for the effort and maybe I should try the FM/mag combo and forget the big beam idea. The Par36 bulbs sound like an easier(less expensive) way to go with the big beams.


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## LuxLuthor (Aug 2, 2010)

Bumped and subscribed as related to FM's recent sale here.

Discussing Ictorana's musings about overdrive voltage end point in that thread...

Of course, like all good Incan Jockeys, the first question is how far can I overdrive my incan bulb? Ultimately, there is only one way to know for sure. I regret only having a 30V/20A power supply, but I doubt you would want to push these bulbs much higher anyway.

We know in general that a bulb's overdrive career is improved with higher default spec rating. We know that the life rating is derived from the manufacturer (ideally) testing many hundreds/thousands of their bulbs at default voltage and determining when they die. Then they take the 50% mean peak of all the failure times, which becomes the life rating. They don't turn it off and on. They don't vibrate it. They use a clean DC supply which performs better than AC.

When looking at these Par 36 4.5" bulbs, I was drawn to Martek's brand because of price. Looking at their website here, shows they have been in business for 35 years. I called them and asked to speak with an engineer or someone who knew advanced details about their Par36 sealed bulbs, and ended up being transferred to Bob Anzalone who I found out later is the President and has an engineering background.

I described our intended application, and used the 4587 sealed Par36 4.5" 250W 25hrs life as a discussion point. After the call, I saw that they resell a number of name brand bulbs in many sizes, so now I am guessing that the Martek brand is made by someone else, but I didn't ask that question.

In general, Bob felt there was some leeway, but the 25 hour default was limiting. He agreed a soft start, and minimizing vibration/trauma would be important. He would not commit to how much upwards leeway, even when presented with my being willing to accept only 5-8 hours of bulb life. In part, I honestly don't think most of these people in Bob's position routinely do what I did in my destructive testing to see what the failure point is with increased voltage. I also suspect that the GE is a better quality bulb than the Martek, just based upon the price.

So, ultimately we are back to where we were before I started doing destructive testing...using the bulb life as a guide...but I will likely get out the power supply and pick a couple sacrificial lambs, and slaughter them in the back yard during the day in case they explode.

Edit, now that I found GE's spec sheet pdf here, I don't see much point in going beyond the Q4509 which has 140,000 CP, life 100 hours, and only 13V. Now the only question is trying to figure out if the GE model is twice as good as the Martek brand. I doubt that. I'm not sure who is making what between Martek/Galaxy without talking to Martek. My live chat at Aircraft Spruce guy didn't know who made Martek. Also, note the higher price of Galaxy 4509Q $19.95 vs. the Martek at $14.75 In any case, I ordered two $$$ GE & two Martek 4509Q, and will destructive test the Martek, and assume the twice as expensive GE is better.


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## Justin Case (Aug 3, 2010)

See this link for some additional data on 4509/Q4509 lifetime. Not a perfect analogy to a flashlight application, but still of some utility.


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## YAK-28 (Aug 3, 2010)

how do think a 28volt bulb, maybe only driven by 20 or 24 volts would preform? would/could it still be brighter than say the 4509 at 13 volts? or would it be to under driven. i don't have a soft start or 3 way switch yet and i worried about just killing the bulb at startup


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## donn_ (Aug 3, 2010)

I ordered 3 of the Martek Q today. I had intended to sacrifice one to testing, but will hold off to hear Lux' results. I'm so impressed with the results of the 4509 at what is probably slightly under spec voltage ( several body joints in my host must be adding resistance) I will probably be happy with the Q at close to spec.


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## LuxLuthor (Aug 4, 2010)

YAK-28 said:


> how do think a 28volt bulb, maybe only driven by 20 or 24 volts would preform? would/could it still be brighter than say the 4509 at 13 volts? or would it be to under driven. i don't have a soft start or 3 way switch yet and i worried about just killing the bulb at startup



I would strongly advise you not to bother with the 28V models, especially underdriving it that severely--which will make it a sickly, orange crush color.

Donn, I'm pretty sure the Martek 4509Q will be worthwhile, and maybe I'm overpaying for the GE. We'll see, but I don't plan on destructive testing the GE-Q at its higher price.


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## LuxLuthor (Aug 4, 2010)

Justin Case said:


> See this link for some additional data on 4509/Q4509 lifetime. Not a perfect analogy to a flashlight application, but still of some utility.



Excellent reference. I even printed it out. The information on the Q (vs. plain 4509) model's increased heat leading to more blackening of the reflector, despite the longer inner filament bulb life is very interesting. First thought is using this in shorter periods to avoid overheating. Thanks! :twothumbs


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## nighttrails (Aug 4, 2010)

Justin Case said:


> See this link for some additional data on 4509/Q4509 lifetime. Not a perfect analogy to a flashlight application, but still of some utility.


 This report provides a delayed answer to the question posed by YAK-28 in post#41. Seems like his question was actually right on after all.


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## wquiles (Aug 4, 2010)

LuxLuthor said:


> Excellent reference.


+1

Nice find Justin.


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## YAK-28 (Aug 9, 2010)

while i was looking for some more bulb choices for a few big beam lights that i've picked up, i came across some of the lower powered choices at grainger.com and also mcmaster.com. they seem to be a little pricey, but atleast they list options to shop around for.


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## LuxLuthor (Aug 27, 2010)

I got the results of the Martek 4509Q which I'll add to the destructive thread for easy reference. The bottom line is it flashed at 18.8 Volts; 8.7 Amps. No explosions. Took a couple photos (thumnails) (Tree shots both 1/3 Sec, F-2.8, ISO-100, AWB)


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## ma_sha1 (Sep 1, 2010)

Does the GE Q4509 throw better than the cheaper 4509Q?

thanks


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## nighttrails (Sep 1, 2010)

ma_sha1 said:


> Does the GE Q4509 throw better than the cheaper 4509Q?
> 
> thanks


And also, how does the beam quality compare?


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## Justin Case (Oct 8, 2010)

Does anyone know if the GE 4509, GE Q4509, or Martek 4509Q can withstand the thermal shock from getting the front glass wet, say from a cold rain, while the light has been running long enough to get hot? In its small aircraft landing light application, it seems that the typical installation has a covering/fairing over the 4509 lamp, shielding the lamp somewhat from the elements.


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## Raoul_Duke (Oct 9, 2010)

Justin Case said:


> Does anyone know if the GE 4509, GE Q4509, or Martek 4509Q can withstand the thermal shock from getting the front glass wet, say from a cold rain, while the light has been running long enough to get hot? In its small aircraft landing light application, it seems that the typical installation has a covering/fairing over the 4509 lamp, shielding the lamp somewhat from the elements.



Well Justin....There's only one way to find out for certain.... :nana: 

TBH I dont know...Havent even got round to getting one yet, but my 6V one doesn't get anywhere near hot enough for me to think it would be a problem.


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## Justin Case (Oct 9, 2010)

I appreciate your volunteering me for destructive testing duty. :wave:

But before I accept the assignment, I've pinged GE Lighting on this thermal shock question.

What is the wattage of your 6V PAR36 -- 20W? The 4509/Q4509 is rated at 100W. Apparently, the Q4509 can get hot enough to cook the reflector if the lamp isn't kept cool enough.


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## Raoul_Duke (Oct 10, 2010)

Justin Case said:


> I
> What is the wattage of your 6V PAR36 -- 20W?



Its Only 30W...probably a touch more when pushed to 7.2V of 4 ( 2S/2P 18650's)

I read about the Q4509 cooking the reflector.....I was just thinking out of all the 100/150/250W lamps I have pushed in mags and the silly long runtimes I have used them ( got quite hot to the touch/ Also used outside in rain etc. etc I have never cracked a lenze ( although Boro Glass if that helps) 

So it will be interesting to see what they come back with for the 100W range!!!


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## Justin Case (Oct 10, 2010)

Boro definitely helps, since that glass composition has very low thermal expansion and thus can withstand greater temperature deltas vs regular glass. It's hard to make a 1-to-1 comparison between a Mag window vs a PAR36 glass envelope because of different shape, glass thickness, degree of constraint, etc. That changes the mechanics of the situation.


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## scout24 (Nov 29, 2018)

I realize this is an old thread, but I have a question: At what point in the modding process would you replace the stock switch with something more robust? Thanks in advance... 

Edit- After re-reading the first post, I see the stock switch should be fine beyond where I would go... 30w H4515 and a 7 cell R/C pack should keep me happy for now.. 😁😁😁


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