# Photon Freedom Microlight Runtime



## meeshu (Jun 19, 2006)

OK. Just finished recording the runtime for LRI Photon Freedom Microlight.

Light sensor placed 1 foot away from light. Recordings in foot-candles.







Starting brightness was about 42 foot-candles. Recorded for 22 hours.

No apparent light regulation.

Further runtimes for this and other lights are in progress.

For those wanting a bit more detail, I enclose the following image.


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## dtsoll (Jun 19, 2006)

Alrighty, thanks Meeshu!! Doug


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## ViReN (Jun 19, 2006)

Thanks for such a great graph.  can i call this as :nana: "semi regulated" :nana:

Now one more request ... try replacing the battery with *1 CR2032* and doing the graphs again. they will be much better as compared with this one. the Light will also last much more and the output wont drop as quickly as it is doing now.

it would be great if both the graphs are put together.

Also, once you are done with this, Imagine what would be the case with *2 CR2032* ....I had requested for this long time back... and in fact it can then be made "LDO" regulated too  ...  but who listens  .. . PhotonLight are you reading this


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## Sub_Umbra (Jun 20, 2006)

Thanks!


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## vortechs (Jun 20, 2006)

ViReN said:


> Also, once you are done with this, Imagine what would be the case with *2 CR2032* ....I had requested for this long time back... and in fact it can then be made "LDO" regulated too  ...  but who listens  .. . PhotonLight are you reading this



I think a two CR2032 microlight would be a nice offering but I wonder how well the LED can handle the increased voltage and current, since the larger coin cells wouldn't have as much voltage drop when loaded. I suppose I could give it a try with a bare Nichia if I could find 2 fresh CR2032's in my box of batteries.


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## paulr (Jun 20, 2006)

Chanik posted a while back that a 2032 delivers about the same current as a 2016. The Princeton Tec Scout is a small 2-led headlamp using four 2032's, presumably 2 for each led, so you could try your runtime test on one. Btw, what's the fc reading of an Arc AAA?


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## jar3ds (Jun 20, 2006)

thanks for the post!

it has made me more thankful of why i have an arc AAA P on my keychain


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## this_is_nascar (Jun 20, 2006)

Unfortunately, regulation does not seem to be a priority with LRI. They've carried this same philosophy forward into the Proton. On lithium or NiMH, it appears to be semi-regulated, but that's only because of the flat discharge of those types of cells. In fact, none of the LRI products that I've tested have any amount of regulation whatsoever.


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## ViReN (Jun 20, 2006)

if the light is built around 2CR2032, there is a chance to have an Onboard Current LDO with minimum of loss. the light can remain regulated and will have runtime as much as an Arc AAA (if not less) at the same time it would be bright. the energy packed in 2 CR2032 cells is more than 1 AAA by a good margin. To be specific 250 mAh @ 6V (2xCR2032) = 1500 mWh compared with 1000 mAh @ 1.2 V for NiMH = 1200 mWh


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## rider (Jun 20, 2006)

ViReN said:


> if the light is built around 2CR2032, there is a chance to have an Onboard Current LDO with minimum of loss. the light can remain regulated and will have runtime as much as an Arc AAA (if not less) at the same time it would be bright. the energy packed in 2 CR2032 cells is more than 1 AAA by a good margin. To be specific 250 mAh @ 6V (2xCR2032) = 1500 mWh compared with 1000 mAh @ 1.2 V for NiMH = 1200 mWh



Viren, a Reasonable Estimate, using Duracell batteries for instance, would be 240mAh @ 6V for CR2032 = 1440 mAh. 1150 mAh @ 1.5V for Alkaline-MnO2 = 1725 mAh TOTAL capacity. That's not getting into drain characteristics, obviously.

Not only that, your scenario is hypothetical, as the Freedom would probably pop the diode @ 6V, and LRI's lights aren't regulated. Oh, and 2xCR2032 would cost about 20 times what a AAA battery costs.


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## Sub_Umbra (Jun 20, 2006)

rider said:


> ...Oh, and 2xCR2032 would cost about 20 times what a AAA battery costs.


How much are you paying for AAAs? Batteryspace.com has CR2032 cells for 35¢ each. (I bought enough for 3.7 lifetimes  ) I've read posts that list prices as low as 24¢.


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## ViReN (Jun 20, 2006)

rider said:


> Viren, a Reasonable Estimate, using Duracell batteries for instance, would be 240mAh @ 6V for CR2032 = 1440 mAh. 1150 mAh @ 1.5V for Alkaline-MnO2 = 1725 mAh TOTAL capacity. That's not getting into drain characteristics, obviously.
> 
> Not only that, your scenario is hypothetical, as the Freedom would probably pop the diode @ 6V, and LRI's lights aren't regulated. Oh, and 2xCR2032 would cost about 20 times what a AAA battery costs.



not quite literally. because, you have to consider preformance under LOAD. also alkaline has to BOOST the voltage, boosting itself will consume some energy. the current draw to drive LED at 40 mA would be of the order of a couple of 100's mA and alkalines are well known for the non performance in the high current drain situations..not to forget the high internal resistance.... 


where as the advantage of 2xCR2032 is, we already have a higher voltate at our disposal. relatively much lower internal resistance. 

if done properly, I can assure you that the runtime of the 2XCR2032 setup can be longer than ARC AAA .. especially when LED is driven at around 40 mA... ...

CR2032 cells are much cheaper as compared to CR2016


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## ViReN (Jun 20, 2006)

Sub_Umbra said:


> How much are you paying for AAAs? Batteryspace.com has CR2032 cells for 35¢ each. (I bought enough for 3.7 lifetimes  ) I've read posts that list prices as low as 24¢.



same here... I am simply looking for a good host to have these cells to run down 

in fact, I have been looking for a Turtle light at mec.ca.. but the shipping is much higher..


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## chimo (Jun 20, 2006)

ViReN said:


> if done properly, I can assure you that the runtime of the 2XCR2032 setup can be longer than ARC AAA .. especially when LED is driven at around 40 mA... ...



Viren, with a 2xCR2032 LDO setup at 40mA, the 240 mAh should get at least 6 hours in regulation. The current draw is around 0.17C so it should get close to the mAh rating. 

Efficiency should be around 63% to start ((assuming 3.8Vf LED @40mA) 152mW to the LED and 88mW loss in the LDO) but it will get better as the battery voltage drops and should approach 100% when the LDO can't maintain regulation and the circuit goes into direct drive.

It looks like it would be very simple to implement.


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## ViReN (Jun 21, 2006)

to make things better, it is possible to have a low current synchronous buck regulator or some thing like a low current 'reverse' charge pump with effiencies as high as 95% Sipex has good chips for this purpose but  that would make atleast a couple of parts more and so would be the price.

the Vf of Nichia CS at 60 mA is around 3.6 (if i remember correctly, from the jtr1962 thread) so at 40 mA it should be little lesser.

relatively higher internal resistance of coin cells (as compared with larger lithiums) should also make things little easier. (last time i checked) The 2xCR2032 cells should drop to about 5.2 - 4.8 volts from a noload voltage of 6.2 volts.


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## ViReN (Jul 8, 2006)

OK, Here is the Brutal Fact now.... it's a DD with 2xCR2032... the test is still running... 





devide by 10 if you want to get lumen numbers.

*
100% mark = 0:00 Hours = 11 Lumens (60mA)
50% mark = 1:00 Hours = 5.5 Lumens (25mA)
25% mark = 4:30 Hours = 2.8 Lumens (11mA) *

Lumens are calculated based on jtr1962 Test...


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## Sub_Umbra (Jul 8, 2006)

Very good. Thank you. 

I'm realizing how very challenging it may be trying to correlate hard data to my own experience. I think this test will tell me a great deal.

I'm a dim light guy and my own kludgy test showed that a PF in NV Green with a cr2032 would still provide useable light _for me -- for my intended uses_ *days* into the test.

This is very interesting. Thanks again.


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## mpk (Jul 17, 2006)

Is the fade in the original graph showing the batteries running down, or the LED being harmed by the voltage/current?


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## revolvergeek (Jul 17, 2006)

Sub_Umbra said:


> I'm a dim light guy and my own kludgy test showed that a PF in NV Green with a cr2032 would still provide useable light _for me -- for my intended uses_ *days* into the test.



Same here. I have a NV green Photon II with one 2032 on my keyring. Plenty bright for not bumping into things and I am beginning to think that I will actually wear the light out before I have to change the battery.


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## ViReN (Jul 17, 2006)

Update: You could be amazed by this.... 
Upto 7 Hours





There after readings taken every 12 hours... up to 5 days





after 5 days I got bored ... it's still running...

here are a couple of setup pictures taken just now... LED is STILL ON !


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## Flashdark (Jul 23, 2006)

Gentlemen,

Awsome thread. As someone who appreciates the Photon lights as a backup to my Surefires, I very much welcome the information. I have gravitated to the Photon Freedom (covert model to avoid the irritating back-lighting), and previously had no reliable information on runtimes.

Thank you all again,
Flashdark sends.


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## ViReN (Jul 23, 2006)

I am planning to start one more test.... with 1xCR2032 cell and Nichia CS LED...

Surprisingly... the OLD test is STILL ON!!!... light output hasent changed much... I wonder how many days it will go on...


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## Sub_Umbra (Jul 23, 2006)

My NV Green PF is the first coin cell light I've ever owned. My initial resistance to buying one was huge. I didn't want to stock an expensive cell and I didn't want to get ripped off on runtime.

It turns out that neither of my concerns had any real merit -- and when you factor in the PF's UI that lets you run it as far down from full power as you want, it's a far more practical light than I envisioned for the first two years I read others _ravings_ about it.

PHOTON TRIVIA:

Does everyone know that the site where most of us bought our PF's (www.photonlight.com) *is not* the home site of the company that makes the PF?

There's a *killer deal* going on at *BatteryJunction*.

MattK's got Photon Freedoms in the standard retail pack (hat bill clip, neck cradle, etc) for *$9.95!* Good color selection. He has NV Green and Red w/covert nose for $1.50 more. *Thread Here*.

I've ordered a couple and while I'm not expecting mine for another day or so, others who ordered earlier have gotten theirs and reported favorably back to the thread above.

EDIT: Lights delivered in timely manner. No surprises. More PFs ordered.


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## Gryffin (Jul 28, 2006)

ViReN said:


> after 5 days I got bored ... it's still running...
> 
> here are a couple of setup pictures taken just now... LED is STILL ON !



Five days? Pshaw. Hope you're ready to wait a loooooooooooong time...

I accidently stomped on a nearly-new Photon Freedom a while back. Dunno what I did to the circuitry, but it was now stuck ON on the lowest output; pressing the switch gave full-power as long as you held it; releasing it dropped it back down to the lowest output again, but not "off".

Well, that was _nine weeks_ ago. I've used it intermittently around the house in "momentary mode"; the rest of the time it's just been sitting there, shining dimly. 

Believe it or not, the constant output is enough to dimly light the bedroom, or to easily read a watch or book or a map, and shows no sign of getting any dimmer yet. Right now, it'll only kick up to high output for about five seconds at a time, so the batteries are definitely going (finally!); but I expect this thing will keep shining on low for at least another few weeks, if not months!


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## phatalbert (Jul 28, 2006)

Thanks so much for the data guys!
Now I want to see a graph of a freedom 2x running on a 2032 in the mode achieved by starting off at the dimmest and releasing the button and then pressing and holding until it reaches "full brightness" except it's pulsing.


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## Phaserburn (Jul 28, 2006)

runtime tests were done with 2x2032 cells? Aren't they only equipped with 2x2016 cells for whites/green/blue and 1x2032 for red/amber?


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## vortechs (Jul 28, 2006)

Phaserburn said:


> runtime tests were done with 2x2032 cells? Aren't they only equipped with 2x2016 cells for whites/green/blue and 1x2032 for red/amber?


 
The runtime tests for the LRI Photon Freedom Microlight in post #1 (by meeshu) were done with two 2016 cells (I think). 

The runtime tests in posts #16 and #20 (by ViReN) were done with two 2032 cells but did not use the Photon as a host. Look at the picture of the setup in post #20 for the setup with two 2032 cells (which was done because people asked about how it would work with two 2032 cells). 

I would be interested to see a runtime test using a single LIR2032 rechargeable Li-Ion coin cell. Does anybody have the equipment to do this?


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## ViReN (Jul 29, 2006)

I m looking forward to do a runtime on LIR2032... Looking forward to get these from AW... PM already sent


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## vortechs (Jul 29, 2006)

I have asked AW about the LIR2032 Li-Ion coin cells. He does not currently sell them. He said the demand was too small to carry them. 

I posted a link in this thread (here) to an eBay seller who offers the LIR2032 and charger for about $13 shipped:

I have been considering getting a couple of LIR2032 cells and a charger and was trying to research them on CPF. The capacity of the LIR2032 Li-Ion (40mAh) is less than a pair of primary CR2016's, but if the Li-Ion holds the initial brightness better it would be well worth it (for use in my SMJLED-modded microlight).


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## ViReN (Jul 29, 2006)

thanks for the link 

the discharge curve for Li-Ion LIR2032 is much flatter as compared to the Li CR2032 because of lesser internal resistance.

the charger should be a good one... to charge these cells... I have come across wall plug chargers, but they are said to be charging cells at 4.4 volts instead of 4.2 Volts


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## vortechs (Aug 25, 2006)

Has anyone tried a runtime test of the Photon microlight with a LIR2032 Li-Ion cell yet?


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## ViReN (Aug 25, 2006)

getting LIR 2032 with a good charger is a trouble  i did have a word with AW but it seems that the charger is not up to the mark according to him...

I can do a test if some one is willing to donate the LIR 2032 cell and charger.... I tried to get it from eBay... but they are charging a lot for shipping


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## vortechs (Aug 25, 2006)

Here is a LIR2032 charger with 2 cells on eBay for $9.95 with only $2.99 shipping (via USPS first class mail): 
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5850267485&rd=1&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&rd=1

CPF member vcal bought one from that eBay seller, according to this thread: 
http://candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=93125

Batteryspace also has LIR2032 and chargers, although I don't know what they charge for shipping: 
http://www.batteryspace.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=2420

Hope that helps anyone who is interested in a LIR2032.


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## ViReN (Aug 25, 2006)

Let me check if i could get hands on these  thanks for posting the links.


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## paulr (Aug 25, 2006)

I think the gripes about regulation are a bit misplaced. The Freedom is essentially DD and is way overdriven when the batteries are brand new, and the "50%" level is actually more like a normal level. I'd like to suggest doing a lux measurement of an Arc AAA with a brand new alkaline cell and use that measurement as the "100%" baseline. Two ways to do the measurement:

1) set the Freedom on "full" and see how long it takes to get to 50% of Arc AAA brightness

2) Dim the Freedom (with new cells) to be equivalent of an Arc AAA, then measure runtime to 50% of that level.

Remember also that the Arc is quite bright for a tiny little light. The original CMG Infinity was a popular light and is more than bright enough for groping around in the dark. With a brand new battery, it's about 25% as bright as an Arc AAA. So for "emergency" purposes we should consider the Freedom useful til it gets to 12.5% of Arc AAA level, and in practice it's useful way beyond that.

I'm not that crazy about computerized lights, but once did a nonstop runtime test on a Fauxton (Photon II clone) and it was still producing "gropeable" light after a solid 5 days. I'd describe the output as "useful" for 24 hours or so.


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## Bearcat (Sep 5, 2006)

This is really interesting. I have purchased 3 Photon Freedoms and 10 Photon Clones (I think they are the same as the Fauxtons) with white leds from Ebay. I just ordered some more Fauxtons from Lighthound in various colored leds. The Clones seem to be brighter than my Freedoms or it might just seem that way because they have a tighter beam. Actually I perfer the wider beam. The reason that I am interested in a test using a single 2032 is because the white led Clones are too bright in most applications. I plan on using a white led Clone as a back-up to my Freedom if it is bright enough and has a long battery life using a 2032.


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## vortechs (Sep 6, 2006)

The clones can be brighter than the Photons, however since the clones do not use Nichia LED's they are being overdriven when the coin cells are fresh, which may shorten the LED lifespan (Nichia LEDs can take 80+ma while normal 5mm LEDs are rated for 20ma). For the lifetime that a clone is likely to be used (a couple of battery changes), it isn't really a problem but for a high-end commercial product like the Photon (where the manufacturer has a good return/repair policy) it is important the the LED they use be able to take the voltage and current from fresh 2016 cells. The Nichia LED's also have a very consistent tint and no artifacts, while the LED's in the clones can vary in quality (though some are quite nice). 

If you think the clones are too bright, just let them run about 15 minutes and that should solve the problem . As you can see from this thread, the output varies a lot as the batteries are depleted. I'll be interested to see an comparison of the graphs in this thread vs. running with one 2032 cell, perferably run on the same setup so we can compare the output values.


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## vortechs (Sep 6, 2006)

vortechs said:


> I'll be interested to see an comparison of the graphs in this thread vs. running with one 2032 cell, perferably run on the same setup so we can compare the output values.



I noticed a thread with some runtime graphs provided by ViReN for 5mm LED's on a single 2032 cell: https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/126614


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## Pumaman (Sep 17, 2006)

anybody guess what the runtime is on slow strobe? flashes every 6 sec. or so.

thanks


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