# Boring heads



## StrikerDown (Jan 18, 2010)

I'm looking for a 2" boring head and thinking the Criterion looks like a good piece? http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INSRIT?PARTPG=INLMKD&PMPXNO=5802530&PMAKA=325-1452

Then there are those darn imports that look so tempting!

Some of the knock offs look just like the rel deal. Are any of the imports worth considering, or should I just get something of known decent quality?

Opinions on the Criterion and the look alikes?

Any other options of reasonably good quality?

I have lots of Chinese toos some is adequate for what I use it for but too much of it is being replaced as fast as I can with decent stuff.


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## The Dane (Jan 18, 2010)

Bought one here, of course i'm on the other side of the pond 
Prises are a little more to my taste and it does a better job than me at the mill. Operation is precise and repeatable.

http://www.rdgtools.co.uk/acatalog/BORING_HEADS__NEW__1.html


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## wquiles (Jan 18, 2010)

Per advice from Barry, Criterion is "the" brand to buy - you can't go wrong with it!. However, since I use boring heads so little, I have not taken the plunge yet. What I have is a 2" integral R8 shank (once piece head and R8 arbor) that I got from Lathemaster in special. I figured if I was going to buy something cheaper than the Criterion, at least buy the single piece version:
http://lathemaster.com/BORINGHEADINTEGRALSHANK.htm

Will


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## PEU (Jan 18, 2010)

StrikerDown said:


> Then there are those darn imports that look so tempting!



I bought a chinese head at ctctools time ago, since I use it very very little buying top quality wasnt top priority from my point of view, it was more like: hey im ordering tools, lets add a boring head to the combo 


Pablo


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## precisionworks (Jan 18, 2010)

There are a handful of top quality heads like Criterion, Flynn, Erickson ... and then there are knock offs that vary greatly in quality. The Criterion is ready to run, no surprises, small backlash, dead repeatable. No name heads will probably need a few hours attention to stone out the milling marks, adjust fit, polish the screw, etc. 

If the money is in your bank account, get the new Criterion & you won't regret it. Or find a used one on eBay. A used Criterion should still be much better than almost any Asian import.

Also check eBay for Erickson Tenth Set heads (aka Kennametal - Erickson). Imagine moving the boring tip one half of one tenth on the radius - that's what a tenth set head can do, time after time. I've picked up a few on eBay, mostly around $100 - not bad for a $700 head


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## StrikerDown (Jan 18, 2010)

Those links/pics look pretty good, but so did the live center Barry just bought in another thread! Therein lies the problem with Chijunk. Often creative photography and cherry picking the part is rather deceptive. 

I am in the same boat (similar anyway) as you guys. Although I have two projects currently needing boring but they are few and far between. One I just don't have the right size drill for the other is a bearing pocket in an aluminum block. (read reasonable precision).

Right now Enco has the Criterion set for $280 and their "Import" for $80, shipping is the same regardless (free with the right code=-) )


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## StrikerDown (Jan 18, 2010)

Thanks Barry,

Money in the bank? Yea, but only til the cc bill gets here. Criterion it is.



Won't have to look back!:thumbsup:


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## precisionworks (Jan 18, 2010)

A lot of this comes down to your budget, and your patience level. If you are very patient (which I am not) you may be fine with an import. I'm sure that people get used to the jerky movement, huge backlash, and general rough fit. If you can put up with all of that, the Asian head may do fine.



> Criterion set for $280 and their "Import" for $80


No surprise on the import, as a highly skilled Chinese worker earns $.70 per hour. That same skill level in the USA pays $20 per hour. Criterions go through numerous quality checks, much like an Albrecht chuck or a Dorian tool post. You never get to see those that flunk QC inspection. They are consistently good, although good is an understatement. Smooth as glass better describes a Criterion :twothumbs


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## wquiles (Jan 18, 2010)

You would need to buy the R8 arbor, but here is an used one on Ebay:
http://cgi.ebay.com/Criterion-Boring-Head-1-1-2-OD-x-3-1-2-long-Shank_W0QQitemZ270516021865QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item3efc02ea69


This one has a rough looking R8 arbor, but the head looks OK:
http://cgi.ebay.com/CRITERION-DBL-102-BORING-HEAD-R8-SHANK-MILL_W0QQitemZ330395085138QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item4ced14e952


And here is another one:
http://cgi.ebay.com/CRITERION-DBL-203D-R8-BORING-HEAD-3-4-BRIDGEPORT-R8_W0QQitemZ260539434561QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item3ca95c4641


Will


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## TOOLING GURU (Jan 18, 2010)

Hello,

Criterions are fine for the money. If you're in high production and trying to hold within .0002" in steel then you 'll need some of the higher end stuff like Big Kaiser, Komet or D'andrea etc. 

Lot's of my customers use the Criterion heads with no problems.

Vic
Rani Tool


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## precisionworks (Jan 18, 2010)

> .0002" in steel then you 'll need some of the higher end stuff like Big Kaiser, Komet or D'andrea etc.


You have to be careful when mentioning the heavy duty tooling ... may cause some members to faint when they see the price :nana:


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## unterhausen (Jan 18, 2010)

precisionworks said:


> Also check eBay for Erickson Tenth Set heads (aka Kennametal - Erickson). Imagine moving the boring tip one half of one tenth on the radius - that's what a tenth set head can do, time after time. I've picked up a few on eBay, mostly around $100 - not bad for a $700 head


I bought a small one of those without any way to mount it. I must have gotten it cheap, don't remember. I found out why it was cheap. I recently had a use for it and tried to figure out how to mount it in my lathe. There is nothing that would work for that, but if I could use a Cat 40, I could get one of those for $350.


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## TOOLING GURU (Jan 18, 2010)

precisionworks said:


> You have to be careful when mentioning the heavy duty tooling ... may cause some members to faint when they see the price :nana:


 
No kidding. Especially when you're looking at the self balancing stuff that runs in the 20,000 - 30,000 RPM range with diamond tooling!! 

Vic


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## StrikerDown (Jan 18, 2010)

Thanks for the info, I have the Criter on order along with a few other can't live withouts!


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## KC2IXE (Jan 19, 2010)

How about a nice Wohlhaupter?


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## StrikerDown (Jan 19, 2010)

Christmas in January!

The Blake Co-Ax indicator from eBay arrived today and so did the Criterion from Enco.

The used Blake shows like new, not a scratch to be found and several extra points. It was still over a hundred less than list.

The wife says I now have an excuse to be boring! I think she was kidding!


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## precisionworks (Jan 19, 2010)

> several extra points


They run $20-$30 each, so you got a great deal


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## StrikerDown (Jan 20, 2010)

precisionworks said:


> They run $20-$30 each, so you got a great deal



I didn't know that, but that is perfect since I was going to add some extras if it hadn't come with. This was the cleanest co-ax that I found in about a month looking at all that popped up. The wood box and all the parts look new. It also went for a pretty penney compared to the others, but was still a lot less than I found in any store, so the extra points are a bonus! 

Funny but the Criterion boring head doesn't look at all Chinese!:naughty: It and the R8 shank of the same manufacturer... sweet.

Thanks Barry


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## precisionworks (Jan 20, 2010)

> Criterion boring head doesn't look at all Chinese!





Funny how well those $20/hour USA workers can make things. I suspect it has something to do with using machines & tooling that are not worn out, plus having gauging & metrology available for quality control at each manufacturing step. 



> a nice Wohlhaupter?


Those are awesome heads - just don't look at the price before you order 

http://www.wohlhaupterus.com/products/index.htm


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## KC2IXE (Jan 20, 2010)

precisionworks said:


> Those are awesome heads - just don't look at the price before you order
> 
> http://www.wohlhaupterus.com/products/index.htm



Perhaps it would be better if you do, so that you can talk with your banker about a loan


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## Atlascycle (Jan 20, 2010)

Ok are there any recommendations for a indexable boring bar to use with a boring head? Looking for something that will be able to be used in the bottom holes or out the side of the boring head.

Jason


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## precisionworks (Jan 20, 2010)

> any recommendations for a indexable boring bar to use with a boring head?


Each size head has a different bar size ... 

Using Criterion as an example:

2" head - 3/8" or 1/2" bar, depending on model

3" head - 5/8" or 3/4"

4" head - 1"

If the material being bored is aluminum, look for a bar that takes the Al insert, like those that Will uses. For steel, a number of shapes are available, both + rake as well as - rake.

Then decide if a steel bar will work or if you need solid carbide.

Vic may have some specific recommendations :twothumbs


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## StrikerDown (Jan 20, 2010)

Mesa Tool offers a couple options for the Criterion 2"

http://cgi.ebay.com/Boring-Head-Att...QQptZBI_Tool_Work_Holding?hash=item5d27af2f08

http://cgi.ebay.com/3-Boring-Head-A...QQptZBI_Tool_Work_Holding?hash=item2558439e76

Madi in Oregon, USA! I have a couple of his other tools, boring bar and threading tools, Nice quality stuff at a reasonable price.


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## precisionworks (Jan 21, 2010)

The Mesa bars are made in the USA & low priced. Cheap enough that a few can be purchased & cut to shorter lengths as needed. Their inserts are also inexpensive, not sure who makes them but they work well.


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## wquiles (Jan 21, 2010)

StrikerDown said:


> Mesa Tool offers a couple options for the Criterion 2"
> 
> http://cgi.ebay.com/Boring-Head-Att...QQptZBI_Tool_Work_Holding?hash=item5d27af2f08
> 
> Madi in Oregon, USA! I have a couple of his other tools, boring bar and threading tools, Nice quality stuff at a reasonable price.




What does it mean?
"Fits standard 2" boring head with 1/2 holes on 5/8 centers."

From the look of the picture, since those bars are 1/2" dia each, it would look to me that the two holes would have to be further apart than 5/8" center to center


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## StrikerDown (Jan 21, 2010)

wquiles said:


> What does it mean?
> "Fits standard 2" boring head with 1/2 holes on 5/8 centers."
> 
> From the look of the picture, since those bars are 1/2" dia each, it would look to me that the two holes would have to be further apart than 5/8" center to center



I will double check when I get home, but I think if you measure from any point (location) on one hole to the exact same point on the other hole it will be 5/8".


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## wquiles (Jan 21, 2010)

StrikerDown said:


> I will double check when I get home, but I think if you measure from any point (location) on one hole to the exact same point on the other hole it will be 5/8".



That is what I though as well, but the picture looks weird then.

If I pick the center of the 1/2" hole, from the center to the edge facing the other 1/2" hole I have 1/4".

If I do this from the other center, I also have 1/4" from the center to the edge.

This would mean that if they were exactly on 5/8" center to center, that the distance between the two holes had to be:

distance between holes = 5/8" - 1/4 - 1/4 = 0.125"

It is probably correct, but it just "looks" to me from the picture that the distance wold had to be more than 0.125" 

Please measure the thin web in between the two 1/2" holes and let me know what it is - definitely curious 

Will


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## TOOLING GURU (Jan 22, 2010)

Then decide if a steel bar will work or if you need solid carbide.

Vic may have some specific recommendations :twothumbs[/QUOTE]

Just be careful in selecting a bar with an odd insert. Look for bars that take ISO inserts. Such as CCGT/CCMT, DCGT/DCMT, SCGT/SCMT, TCGT/TCMT, WCGT/WCMT. Some of these bars take TPGB or Komet is famous for making tools that take WCMT inserts but theirs are 85 degree angle instead of the industry standard 80 degree.

If you stay with ISO standards then there are literally 100's of sources for inserts. If you get snookered into a proprietary insert you're stuck.

Vic


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## StrikerDown (Jan 22, 2010)

Will,

Like I thought the holes are 5/8' centers.

The Mesa Tool attachment does use the TPGB Inserts They are $29.95/10 pack

http://cgi.ebay.com/TPGB-321-Carbid...emQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item2558652998

Seems pretty reasonable for a tool that works well and adds versatility to the boring head.


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## precisionworks (Jan 23, 2010)

The TPGB is a good, general purpose boring (or turning) insert:






Note that is has no chipbreaker feature. The TPGH does have a chipbreaker and may work better for some materials:





Carbide Depot has some available in the $3 range:http://www.carbidedepot.com/SearchResult.aspx?KeyWords=tpgh321


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## Lyndon (Jan 26, 2010)

Anyone here heard of Armstrong boring heads? I have a 3" one that I got by swapping with someone who didn't need it. It weighs a ton and looks gigantic on my little X2 mill but the movement is smooth and it is nicely made, if old. So old, in fact, that all my googling doesn't turn up anything.

Not looking to get rid of it, just wondering where it falls on the quality spectrum and perhaps what it would have cost when new.


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## precisionworks (Jan 26, 2010)

Armstrong still forges tons of steel every year ... some into clamps, some into tools, etc. As I remember, they made the square style boring head which is similar to the current Criterion S1/S2/S3:






I don't think that Armstrong has made that head in the last 20 or 30 years, so it's hard to figure what it sold for then. Armstrong did make, until about 5 years ago, a tool post that holds three different diameter bars - mine has 1/2", 5/8" and 3/4", but I've seen some that take 1" bars.






To get the bars on center, a spacer washer has to be ground or faced to raise the tool post slightly. The design works well, but no one would ever call this a quick change


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## unterhausen (Jan 27, 2010)

I was hoping that when I chimed in on this thread about my Tenth-Set boring head without an arbor, someone would say "you idiot, here's an arbor you can buy." Anyone know where I can get an arbor for it without breaking the bank?


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## Lyndon (Jan 27, 2010)

My Armstrong is round, not square, with the usual three holes for bars. But still... 20 or 30 years? I guess it could be that old: it's obviously used, but still in great shape.

Need to find a source of good 3/4" boring bars for it. Right now I am using cheap LMS 3/8" import bars with an adapter I made.


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## precisionworks (Jan 27, 2010)

> Need to find a source of good 3/4" boring bars for it.


Try Mesa Tools. Made in USA, nice quality, priced like an import :twothumbs

http://www.mesatool.com/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=1


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## precisionworks (Jan 27, 2010)

> Anyone know where I can get an arbor for it without breaking the bank?



Is it an Erickson TenthSet? Most I've seen (and the few I own) have an internal thread mount ... I think 

What arbor is on it now? Have you tried to remove it?


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## unterhausen (Jan 28, 2010)

precisionworks said:


> Is it an Erickson TenthSet? Most I've seen (and the few I own) have an internal thread mount ... I think
> 
> What arbor is on it now? Have you tried to remove it?


It's a Kennametal TenthSet TBH10MA. I bought it without an arbor. 
It appears to be 5/8 thread, but not 18 tpi. Guess I need to get a thread gauge.


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## precisionworks (Jan 28, 2010)

> It's a Kennametal TenthSet TBH10MA


Now we're talking :thumbsup:

That thread is M16x2.0


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## precisionworks (Jan 28, 2010)

No one makes an R8 arbor with M16x2.0 threads ... but you can buy and R8 arbor with 7/8x20 thread, which would give you enough material to work with to turn the thread down to M16x2.0. Cheap enough at $38.49 

http://www1.mscdirect.com/CGI/NNSRIT?PMPXNO=1762191&PMT4NO=0


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## unterhausen (Jan 28, 2010)

Thanks, that's a good idea.
No R8 here, only 30 taper Erickson or straight. I actually wanted to use it in my lathe, so a straight shank would be better. I might have to find somebody that's competent at thread cutting to do it for me though.


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## precisionworks (Jan 28, 2010)

> a straight shank would be better


Now you're talking easy 

Start with slightly over size rod stock, turn part of it to your desired diameter, thread the end for M16x2.0 (which looks to be only 1/2" or so). I don't have metric threading gears, but lots of people here can do that.


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## Lyndon (Feb 4, 2010)

Just got the 3/4" x 4.5" bar. Haven't used it yet (really got it just to have it when I need it!) and it looks really well made and quite reasonably priced.



precisionworks said:


> Try Mesa Tools. Made in USA, nice quality, priced like an import :twothumbs
> 
> http://www.mesatool.com/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=1


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## Clark (Feb 5, 2010)

I have the cheapest boring head Enco sells and the cheapest HSS boring bar set that Enco sells.

The main inconvenience is the backlash and inaccuracy when adjusting.

If I am boring a precise hole, I have to sneak up on it, just like cutting with a light weight lathe that has lots of backlash.
Accurate work can be done, with some effort.

I would upgrade, but it almost never gets used.
It DID get used on 2 different projects this week, so maybe I will upgrade.


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## unterhausen (Feb 5, 2010)

I used a boring head for the first time this week, it is slow work. I decided to put the part on my lathe and cut it that way. If I get my mill working, I might want to get one, but since it's cnc I probably won't need it.


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## gadget_lover (Feb 5, 2010)

Can a CNC mill do deep bores as cleanly as a boring bar does? A long and thick solid carbide endmill gets real expensive real fast.


I've only used my boring head a few times, but it was able to remove stock pretty fast. That's a 3 inch head with 3/4 inch shank boring bars. It can take pretty big bites if I want it to.

Daniel


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## 65535 (Feb 5, 2010)

A CNC mill can bore easily without the need for an adjustable boring bar, but like Daniel hints at you won't be able to bore as deeply, which depending on your common uses may be acceptable.


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## cmacclel (Feb 5, 2010)

65535 said:


> A CNC mill can bore easily without the need for an adjustable boring bar, but like Daniel hints at you won't be able to bore as deeply, which depending on your common uses may be acceptable.


 

Even CNC machines use boring heads. If you want a perfectly round hole you need to use a boring head. 
Even when our $80k CNC mill at work was new it never made perfect circle. When it came to making a hole for a bearing......the boring head was used.


Mac


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## 65535 (Feb 5, 2010)

That is true, stepper motors can only do so much. I'd say there isn't much of a downside to having all the tooling you can get your hands on except the wallet hit you take.


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## unterhausen (Feb 5, 2010)

I used to think woodworking was a money-pit. Boring heads are relatively cheap though.


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## GMLRS (Feb 12, 2010)

Here is an example of something that really helps, Solid carbide shank .625 x 10 inches. I use to do very very high precision work. I forgot the rule of thumb but carbide shanks greatly increase depth.

http://www.kennametal.com/images/stibo/web_normal/images/17664.gif


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## GMLRS (Feb 12, 2010)

Sorry forgot, to add image


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