# Oracle 35W HID



## lapsmith

Does anyone know anything about this 35W HID light? Is the price a mistake? I've been thinking about getting the 24W version.


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## Richie086

I don't know. I thought it's $329.00 for the 15" 35w and about $400.00 for the 14" 35w.

I'd contact them first but it's listed as _"GB deposit"._ Perhaps it means if you are going to do a _"Group Buy"_ It's the deposit required to place the order??

I'd contact Justin and ask him.


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## Patriot

Order one quick before the price changes :naughty:


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## Richie086

lapsmith said:


> Does anyone know anything about this 35W HID light? Is the price a mistake? I've been thinking about getting the 24W version.


 

Hi Tom,

I asked Justin from Advanced Automotive Concepts if I could borrow one of his 35w HID's until I can get my 24w repaired from him. Incredibly he sent me a brand new 35W 3 days later without asking for any type of security deposit from me. I wonder if I can get my hands on a new Corvette fully loaded just by asking my local Chevrolet dealer for one  Nice of him to go the extra mile for a customer like that.

It's about the same size as my AEX-25 with the 4800mAh battery installed but with a larger head and larger orange peel reflector. Since I'm used to the size of the AEX25 , the size of the Oracle 35w didn't faze me at all. 

The Oracle 35w incorporates a multi-mode battery system giving it the ability to operate on high power (100%) and low power (70%). On high power, the tail cap On/Off switch will illuminate in a *"blue"* color. On low power mode it illuminates in *"Green"* Only the perimeter of the switch will illuminate. I'd estimate the output is 2700 lm on high and 1900 lm on the lower power setting. The lumens are my estimate but I'm sure they're close to reality. If a 4200k bulb was used, the lumens would be much higher and likely 3000+ lm on the high setting.

The color temp of the example I have here is 5000k-6000k. I compared a beam shot to my POB 4300k and the color temp is cooler than 4300k, but I'd have to say it's no way higher than 6000k.. From what I know about this light, it may be available from the factory in 4200K, 5000K, 8000K, 10000K color temps. So my initial estimate of 5000k+ seems correct.


During my initial examination and run test on the high setting, it's AC ballast performed like a champ.









The 35W arrived in the same type aluminum, Oracle badged case as 
the 24w version only larger in size. It also had "Oracle" badging neatly 
stamped on the flashlight grip.









The interior of the case held the AC/DC chargers,
12 volt 4000mAh or 4400mAh Li-ion battery pack (not sure which), 
Oracle badged carry strap, and a 3000k slip on lens for foggy nights.









A size comparison from top to bottom: AE Xenide 25W, Oracle 35W,
and the Oracle 24w. _NOTE: 24w lanyard is my brain-child and not_
_available through retailers._









Oracle 35w on the left, AEX-25 on the right. It also Incorporates an 
adjustable spot-to-flood beam with a twist of the head. 








The end caps are clear acylic at both ends of the Li-Ion
battery. Shown with backup LED's illuminated.









I decided to show the power setting LED lights out of the
flashlight for ease of viewing. The *"blue"* setting shown
would be 100% brightness. Runtime yields 75 minutes+
on high.









Pressing the On/Off switch a second time switches to 
power saving *"Green"* reducing output down to 70% of 
maximum for longer 90 minute runtimes.









A shot of the charger input and the clear acrylic
end cap. 










Just a photo what it looks like in the hand.








Oracle 35w left, AEX-25 Right. Not a very useful photo at 10 yards 
bounced off the white vinyl siding. I'll get better photos posted soon. 

However, this photo is a good example of the adjustable flood-to-spot
beam the OP reflector produces. The Oracle is adjusted to the tightest
spot beam it can make. 


The following photos were taken with my Cannon PowerShot SX 110-IS digital 
camera on a tripod and set at F/2.8. The photos were cropped for size only 
and using PhotoShop 7.0. No adjustments for color or anything else have been 
done to them. 






Oracle 35W shot from my back yard and adjusted for "spot" beam. The *"blue"* colored 
ring is the electronic On/Off switch on the tail cap illuminated showing the output is 
set to 100%. The low setting of 70% would illuminate in *"green"**. *The spill from 
the reflector illuminate the hibernating grass exactly as the human eye will see it.








The AE Xenide 25w beam comparision. Did I mention the AEX-25 is one awesome 
thrower :thumbsup: Talk about a tight beam.








This is my current "Big Boy" of my growing HID flashlight/spotlight collection. My 
Power On Board modified with a 50w 4300k bulb and high power AGM battery with 
digital battery meter and rear mounted illuminated paddle On/Off switch. 

NOTE TO NEWBIES: Bulb is 50w but powered by the stock POB ballast rated at 
about 43 watts. Please don't think just because a 50w bulb is used the output
is 50w. Output is the same whether modifying with a 35w 4300k or a 50w 4300k. 
Add a 50w ballast if you can find one that fits, then the 50w bulb will put out the
additional lumens :thumbsup:

Hopefully one day this photo will be of a Polarion PH-50 



Conclusion: After using this flashlight the last several nights, it was a no-brainer for me 
I'd like to own one for myself. It's just a little heavier than the AEX-25 and loads lighter 
than my POB. The rear On/Off switch is of the electronic variety, so it requires very 
little (to little) pressure to activate the flashlight which could cause unintentional activation, 
so some caution is advised. 

It does come with a security tail cap that can be placed over the rear switch when traveling with 
it in the case to prevent accidental activation. It should also be noted this flashlight excels in the "ceiling bounce" room illumination department when required to tail-stand. 

I've been wanting a good tube-style HID flashlight like this in a silver color. Perhaps when I return 
this one to Justin, I'll see if it's available in silver and 4200k.


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## spiceygoat

It looks like this light

https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/217959


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## Richie086

spiceygoat said:


> It looks like this light
> 
> https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/217959


 

Yep, the 24w and 35w is sold under 5 or 6 different names over the internet. 

I'm glad I was lucky to have had the opportunity to test a demo unit and put it through the paces. I dare say this 35w could even be used in Law Enforcement too. It's the fastest starting HID I've ever used with it's instant on feature of about 1 second of bright useable light and less than 8 seconds to full brightness. It hot re-strikes perfectly too. I'd be interested to know how the ballast used in the flashlight allows such a fast startup.

It achieves full brightness twice as fast as my AE Xenide 25w or Power On Board 35w. These electronic AC type ballasts coupled with a fully charged Li-ion 12.6 volt battery really do an incredible job. I'm going to try to get a silver one for myself.


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## Patriot

Richie, the start up time sound's really impressive for this light. My AE lights take a good 20-25 seconds so cutting that time is half is pretty remarkable. It seems that slow start-up times are common with most HID available to these days, including the new L35. Having a feature that differentiates itself from other like types is interesting and the warmer temp is a bonus too. I only wish it was shorter but there's no way around that without losing output or run-time. Thanks for your thoughts on it.


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## Richie086

Patriot36 said:


> Richie, the start up time sound's really impressive for this light. My AE lights take a good 20-25 seconds so cutting that time is half is pretty remarkable.


 

This second video is a little better than the previous one. It shows the start up time of the AE Xenide 25W and Power On Board 35w w/ 50W 4300k bulb modification. Performing these tests live with the human eye, the Oracle started quicker than the AEX-25, but it appeared to be a tie between the Oracle and POB. But after viewing the video, it was clear the camcorder was able to cut through all the blinding glare and showed the Oracle beat the POB as well. This was really a surprise since my POB's have special high power AGM batteries installed, which I thought would have given it a big start-up advantage.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HnnvPz6oVFI


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## Patriot

I watched the video and it appeared that the 35W took a minimum of 20 seconds to stabilize...36-56 seconds into the vid. Still, it was faster than the AE but it is a 35W light after all so I guess that's to be expected. It would be interesting to see it compared to other 35 watters I suppose. 


I was thinking that the test might be even better in a brightly lit room. That would close down the aperture in the camera so that some detail could still be seen in the beams. 

Thanks Richie


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## Richie086

Patriot36 said:


> I watched the video and it appeared that the 35W took a minimum of 20 seconds to stabilize...36-56 seconds into the vid.


 

Hi Patriot,

I deleted the first video and updated the link showing the second video in my #8 post above. I also included one of my modified Power On Board spotlights with the 50w 4300k bulb and high power AGM battery. Amazing what a difference the POB's larger and smooth reflector makes on the wall test. 

Yes, you're correct. The camcorder can really see more detail than my eyes were able to differentiate. When I shot the video, I couldn't tell the Oracle was still stabilizing. So my initial opinion my not count as much seeing what the camcorder lens was able to determine. Still, the POB's outer perimeter of the hot-spot took a while to turn from cool to warm, so the Oracle still beat it out.

I don't know what all this means or what use it is, but I still had fun doing all of this. I think what it comes down to is that I was simply caught off guard using an HID flashlight that has almost instantaneous useable light at the touch of the button. 

The AEX-25 is a wonderful and super high quality product and well respected here on the CPF, and why I'm always putting other HID's up against it. I also think the POB is understated as well. I really need to try a Li-Ion modification to my second one.


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## Patriot

Great updated video Richie. You're the man! It's hard to tell when the POB settles in but it's pretty clear with the Oracle. I counted 23 seconds or so. The POB's spot is so tight that you can't see the corona fill in like you can with the other.

For some reason I always forget to give it credit for being a two stage light. Besides its length it doesn't really seem to have any objectionable points. For many, even the size isn't an issue.


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## LuxLuthor

Richie, nice writeup and review. Didn't know about these. Thanks!


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## Richie086

Hi folks,

If any CPF member wishes to purchase the new 35w 4200k HID flashlight at a reduced price, please contact Justin from Advanced Automotive Concepts directly. Thanks.


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## SwatDude

Man that is tempting!!! How does the beam compare to the L35 I just bought?? I like the rugged metal look of this light and the runtime doesn't seem that far off.


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## Richie086

SwatDude said:


> Man that is tempting!!! How does the beam compare to the L35 I just bought?? I like the rugged metal look of this light and the runtime doesn't seem that far off.


 

Hi there Swat,

The demo unit I had, which I just returned, was a good all-around light. Remember, like it's 24w little brother, the 35w has a semi-OP reflector with an adjustable beam and can be seen in the photos above. I'd have to say the L35 would likely beat it in the throw department, but the overall light output was great. I didn't mind this because early on purchasing LED or HID flashlights, I began to realize everything I was purchasing was for all out throw. So it's nice to have something that can be used for most situations and not strickly for one purpose. Also, the lower power setting is barely noticable to the eye, but it certainly yielded a longer runtime, which again was a plus. With it's 1 year warranty and a dealer that obviously stands by their product, I'd say you'd be hard pressed to find a better deal, IMHO. 

Yesterday I purchased that newer 4200k version in aluminum. As soon as I get it, I'll try to get some beam comparisons between my POP 4300k and the Oracle 35w side by side. Hope this helps.


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## windstrings

Richie086 said:


> I don't know. I thought it's $329.00 for the 15" 35w and about $400.00 for the 14" 35w.
> 
> I'd contact them first but it's listed as _"GB deposit"._ Perhaps it means if you are going to do a _"Group Buy"_ It's the deposit required to place the order??
> 
> I'd contact Justin and ask him.


 
The only problem with that theory is that the GB prices they quote are higher than the regular price http://automotivelightstore.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=411
Maybe the prices have dropped?

.. Does anyone know if you have to pull the battery out to charge it?
*GROUP BUY DEAL:*
_1 - 9 Sign Up= $349_
_10-25 Sign Up= $325_
_25+ Sign Up= $299_


*GROUP BUY DEAL:*
_1 - 9 Sign Up= $349_
_10-25 Sign Up= $325_
_25+ Sign Up= $299_


*GROUP BUY DEAL:*
_1 - 9 Sign Up= $349_
_10-25 Sign Up= $325_
_25+ Sign Up= $299_


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## Richie086

Hi there Wind,

The "GB" pricing is no doubt a public link and NOT special pricing that has been given to the CPF. The webpage showing the price of $219.00 for CPF members was just created several days ago for us.


Yes, the rear cap has to be unscrewed and the Li-ion battery removed to charge it.


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## windstrings

Richie086 said:


> Hi there Wind,
> 
> The "GB" pricing is no doubt a public link and NOT special pricing that has been given to the CPF. The webpage showing the price of $219.00 for CPF members was just created several days ago for us.
> 
> 
> Yes, the rear cap has to be unscrewed and the Li-ion battery removed to charge it.



Thanks Richie... I have the Barnburner and just bought the L35 "don't even have it fully charged yet".....

So far, I don't see any negatives by those who have purchased it... I'm considering buying just because this would be a nice light to tuck away in a confined space......

Too bad about the charging... that does make things a tad more tedious for real use as I like to use a good light in my boat and rarely need it but for short uses and would like to be able to charge in between times conveniently.


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## windstrings

I talked with Justin "very nice guy".. the GB is no longer active and outdated.
The 219.00 is for CPF members for the 35W version.


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## Richie086

windstrings said:


> I talked with Justin "very nice guy".. the GB is no longer active and outdated.
> The 219.00 is for CPF members for the 35W version.


 

Thanks Windstrings, I didn't know the "Group Pricing" was gone from their website.


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## windstrings

Thats ok.. because the 150.00 was only a deposit and the final price ended up being much more than 219.00...

I went ahead and ordered one... I couldn't stand it.

Seems like a very nice addition to my HID collection.
If its anywhere near as cool as the L35 I just got, it will be worth it.


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## Richie086

Hi gang,

Here's the new addition to my modest little HID flashlight collection and the one I've been waiting for. It's the new Oracle 35w 4300k dressed in beautiful aluminum. The battery requires a full charge, so I'll post some beam shots soon. Enjoy.


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## Richie086

Hi gang,

I was able to snap several photos for you of the 35w 4300k. I really don't have anything to 
compare it to since my 35W POB is far to powerful with it's larger smooth reflector. So I had 
to take these photos as stand-alones.








The Oracle 35w set to the tightest spot beam. It should also be noted that on 
this model, the rear tailcap illuminates in "Green" for high power and "Blue" for low
28w power. 








Here it's adjusted for flood. I should also point out that on this new model, the spot 
and flood adjustment is superior to that of the demo unit I had. Somehow the adjustment 
system is far more precise, which is great.

Like the demo unit I tested, runtime on a full charge was 70 minutes and 90 minutes on the low 28w power setting. If completely depleted, the 4000mAh battery can take about 3 or 4 hours to recharge.


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## windstrings

I need to clear up a few statements I made in prior post as I misunderstood a couple of things. 
The Bulb is attached to the ballast. Should you ever need to replace either, they come as one unit and the present price would be 69.00.

The battery is separate. Sorry for the confusion.


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## windstrings

Just got my new Oracle 35W HID!

First of all, the case is impressive. Not bulletproof, but very functional and as sound as most attaché cases you would buy except the back hinges are not the most robust, they should last fine long as no one forces the lid backwards against its resting place where it likes to stay open.

Let me start with my biggest gripe, then we will finish with the good stuff.
I don’t like the fact that you indeed do have to have the battery out of the flashlight to charge it. But there is no other LiIon 35W HID I can think of that’s in this price range, and most of the budget lights out there are plastic and non-LiIon batteries.

The battery pack does have a 3 LED pilot light with a switch. This is to give you a light while fumbling in the dark trying to charge the battery “since its out of the light rendering it unusable during those periods”, or as an emergency light should you run the battery too low for the HID ballast to fire and still need to see your way back home.






The front reflectors comes off. The next section adjusts the beam pattern. You can pick how big of a hotspot you want from tiny and hot to bigger and hot to more diffuse and even bigger, the spill seems relatively unaffected on all settings as its just flat big!
The reflector has an orange peel surface too.










The spill is big enough to light your feet in front of you as well as everything else with plenty of light before you even worry about the corona and hotspot in the center, you can be rest assured that you will be lighting up the “whole” trail when walking in the woods!

Although this light is bright enough to rival many spotlights, Its honestly more of a glorious flashlight because the spill as well as the corona is so big.
Many people have complained about other spotlights because they were almost unusable for close up work or to light a large area…. No problem here!

The Amber lens cover is solid and very well made….. no complaints and it was nice they threw it in for no extra cost.














The chargers have a small light on them, they will be red when charging and green when charged.. There is both an AC and DC charger.

In High mode “ 35Watt” there is a LED green light at the back of the battery pack that shows through while mounted in the light. On Low mode “28Watt” there is a blue light.










I have not used mine at night just yet in the distance, but I really don’t see a dramatic change between the two modes.. Both are plenty bright!
There is no way to have a serious lower setting without danger of the bulb not even working at the lower power. I would expect very long bulb life on the lower setting that honestly is nearly the same as the high when shining on a wall!

Instructions appear to be written by someone not skilled in the English language… 
I talked to Justin and I will elaborate on a few questions I had.
1. There is a line that says that overcharging will damage the battery. There is also another line that states “don’t exceed 24hrs during recharge. Both accounts are non issues. The cells are indeed protected cells and he admitted to leaving his on for several weeks a few times accidently with no issues.. The instructions may have been for an early make but are not an issue at this time.
2. There is another line that states not to reverse the poles of the battery. This would be very hard to do so since the contact ring on the back of the ballast has cylindrical rings that are dummy proof.. so that’s a non issue too. 
What you “don’t” want to do is short out the poles! 

Picture of end cap off and looking deep inside barrel to see back of ballast where battery contact rings rest when inserted.







The 24W version does not have a button on the back to indicate two modes as “high, low, and then off”, as it only has on and off, but on the 35W version there is and while in the off position there is no power to the poles anyway, but we are still advised to keep the protective rubber boot over the poles because its “very easy” to bump the button and turn it on.










I will be surprised if anyone complains at what you get for the price! I have seen lights several times the price that didn’t appear anymore robust than this one. I’ve also seen lots of issues with lights costing many hundreds of dollars!
There are no cheap, thin, fragile parts I noted and everything seems built to last. Everything is protected with O rings so should be pretty impervious to rain and the like.

Only time will tell concerning the longevity of the electrical components.
But the way I see it is, it has a one year unconditional warranty and all parts inside are quite cheap to replace in a worse case scenario… so if you want a kick butt lithium Ion rechargeable light , this one is worth considering.
The Bulb is attached to the ballast. Should you ever need to replace either, they come as one unit and the present price would be 69.00.
The battery is separate. 

I cannot vouch for the QA specs or whether time will testify of its longevity of this light compared to the others.


Misc Pics:
HID bulb attached to top of ballast inside housing


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## BlueBeam22

Beautiful light Windstrings and thank you for the pictures, what an amazing HID! :goodjob: However your photos exceed the maximum permitted size on CPF of 800x800 pixels, so could you please resize them.

_Edit: Thanks for resizing. Great pics.:thumbsup:_


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## Patriot

Fantastic review Windy. It's amazing how much light is there for the money spent. Great pics and thoughts. I wonder if your post can be extracted and then reposted as its own thread in the review forum....even if it was removed here. I say this because it would be great to have the HID "food plate" placed under the noses of more cpf'ers since the light is priced so reasonably. Might open some eyes beyond the LED :thumbsup:


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## windstrings

Others have left excellent reviews.. I have as of yet to post outside shots.. but thats pretty much already covered.... I may do some comparison shots of my existing lights.

To repost somehwhere else would be an incomplete review, since I'm just added to whats already here... its really incomplete without the shots of the case, outside shots, other opinions etc.

But I will resize them.. I need to simply go to photobucket and change my settings.

I realize many vendors don't welcome newcomers if its not obvious they are not going to contribute to CPF. But hopefully Oracle will see the benefit of CPF and support the basis by which we are able to comment.
Vendors with good stock have motivation to support good advertising, other vendors with shoddy products cannot and will not allow their product to undergo the intense scrutiny of CPF members anyway.


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## windstrings

Patriot said:


> Fantastic review Windy. It's amazing how much light is there for the money spent. Great pics and thoughts. I wonder if your post can be extracted and then reposted as its own thread in the review forum....even if it was removed here. I say this because it would be great to have the HID "food plate" placed under the noses of more cpf'ers since the light is priced so reasonably. Might open some eyes beyond the LED :thumbsup:



I'm also very excited about LED's... mostly for the instant on features and cool running. Breakthroughs have already surpassed my expectation of how much light a diode could give out. Similar to a TV screen, I suppose its possible to have endless possibilities by placing them side by side since heat is not an issue, whereas HID is limited in that respect and would go into a meltdown without crazy external cooling going on which requires even more power.

It won't be long, LED's may be the cats meow under any circumstances, but for now, HID is the winner for final max light output for the laypersons budget, and the cost is dropping everyday.

We now play with lights that make police enforcement quality lights of 20 years ago look like a little candle!


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## Richie086

windstrings said:


> _Let me start with my biggest gripe, then we will finish with the good stuff._
> _I don’t like the fact that you indeed do have to have the battery out of the flashlight to charge it. But there is no other LiIon 35W HID I can think of that’s in this price range, and most of the budget lights out there are plastic and non-LiIon batteries._


 
Hi Wind,

I also wondered about that myself, but the only thing I could think of is without the external battery charging port, it must have been done in order to make it more water-proof. Besides, if you don't have a spare battery, once it's dead, it'll take 3 or 4 hours to charge. I myself haven't ordered a second battery because I haven't needed to use the light long enough to have needed a spare battery pack. Also, like many CPF members, I have enough LED and HID flashlights, I'd just go grab another one while the Oracle is charging. The other reason is that IIRC, Li-Ion batteries have a shelf life, whether used or not, so unless I really felt I needed a spare battery, I won't be purchasing one. 




_


windstrings said:



Many people have complained about other spotlights because they were almost unusable for close up work or to light a large area…. No problem here!

Click to expand...

_ 
This is another good point you make because it makes this HID flashlight a very good all-around flashlight and one of the reason's I wanted one.





_


windstrings said:



I have not used mine at night just yet in the distance, but I really don’t see a dramatic change between the two modes..

Click to expand...

_ 
I didn't see any dramatic change either between both modes. However, runtime certainly does increase switching down to the low power setting.





windstrings said:


> _I talked to Justin and I will elaborate on a few questions I had._
> _1. There is a line that says that overcharging will damage the battery. There is also another line that states “don’t exceed 24hrs during recharge. Both accounts are non issues. The cells are indeed protected cells and he admitted to leaving his on for several weeks a few times accidently with no issues.. The instructions may have been for an early make but are not an issue at this time._


 
When I charge either of my Oracle's, I always have a muli-meter attached to the battery contacts so I can see exactly what the charger is doing. I noticed on both of these flashlights, the charge tops out between 12.5 -12.6 volts and it stays there. So I don't worry about leaving them on the charger that much. I will admit I don't look to the over-charge protection 
circuit to prevent my house from catching fire, so I do keep a watchful eye when charging any of my HID flashlights.





windstrings said:


> _There are no cheap, thin, fragile parts I noted and everything seems built to last. Everything is protected with O rings so should be pretty impervious to rain and the like._


 
I agree on all counts here too. It's a great package deal and arrived in flawless condition.


_


windstrings said:



The Bulb is attached to the ballast. Should you ever need to replace either, they come as one unit and the present price would be 69.00.

Click to expand...

_ 
I haven't decided if this one-piece-unit is a good idea or not. But the bulb and ballast should be easily to remove by unscrewing the 3 screws under the reflector. I believe the bulb/ballast assembly slides out the rear.


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## windstrings

Richie086 said:


> I also wondered about that myself, but the only thing I could think of is without the external battery charging port, it must have been done in order to make it more water-proof.



Justin said its much more difficult "although they are considering it" to make an adapter that has an external charge port that marriages well when the battery is removed. One solution is of course a non removable battery.
I think the N30 and the L35 light has done an excellent job of accomplishing this feat. Like I said, its my biggest irritation.



Richie086 said:


> The other reason is that IIRC, Li-Ion batteries have a shelf life, whether used or not, so unless I really felt I needed a spare battery, I won't be purchasing one.


I think I read they lose about 10% a year... thats not bad... some lithiums boast a shelf life of 20 years.




Richie086 said:


> I haven't decided if this one-piece-unit is a good idea or not. But the bulb and ballast should be easily to remove by unscrewing the 3 screws under the reflector. I believe the bulb/ballast assembly slides out the rear.



I believe it does but haven't done it myself. But I have two other HID's.. if this was going to be my one and only, I would consider an extra battery... "especially" since it charges outside the unit.. that way, one is on the charger while the other is in use... of course unless your in the boonies with no charger, and even then, it doubles your light runtime!


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## PhantomPhoton

I received my Oracle 35W yesterday. Overall I'm quite pleased for the price so far.

The color temp is closer to a 5000K by my eyes, but that doesn't bother me in the slightest... it's definitely not the over-blue 6000K that we're accustomed to seeing in cheap HIDs.

I'll have it out to the Seattle get together this Saturday and put it up against some other HIDs, maybe we'll manage some okay beamshots.

Overall if I could have three wishes to improve this light, they would be: 
An optional smooth(er) reflector for better throw... to heck with artifacts.
A higher quality AR coated window, I'd say we're loosing 5%+ light with the one thats in there now.
And HA instead of the powder coat.
All minor things really. If we get the right leverage we may even be able to get a run of smooth reflectors. I'll have to search and see if I can find a nicer window that will fit out on the net.

I'll post up further thoughts if anything comes to my attention.


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## windstrings

I"ve compared mine with my 35W L35, and my 75W Barnburner Xeray.

I think the Oracle maker had "flashlight" in mind over a spotlight. I actually like it a 1/4 turn or so back from full tight focus.. it makes the center hotspot bigger.

Set where the hotspot is the absolute tiniest, I really don't see any farther range because its just too small. I can actually see better and more with it backed off a tad.

I feel like the L35 has about a 5 watt advantage for distance... most likely due to the excellent reflector that is perfectly smooth like you say and also throws more of the periphery light forward.

But anyway you stack it, it lights up the whole place in front of you!
When shining on my garage door from about 50 feet, they both have very similar patterns.. smooth with very little artifact to discuss.

I'm amazed at how light the battery pack is for the oracle... by weight alone, you may think you got jipped, but its the technology of battery that affords that luxury.

I too am quite impressed with the purchase... very competitively priced.

My Xeray is a little warmer and even though it has more throw and lights up a bigger area and you can things better in the distance due to the sheer lumens, the color temp almost tricks the mind into thinking its dimmer!

The color temp of the oracle and the L35 I would say is vitually identical.... when I have all three shining at once, I prefer the color temp of the Oracle and the L35 over the BB as when comparing, the BB looks dull compared to the higher kelvin little friends.... 
But keep in mind thats indeed an illusion and trick of the mind as we have learned that most intense bright lights such as a welding arc, or lightening has that higher color temp and so we relate it to being the brightest, even though in reality it may not be and we may actually be able to see less.

This same trick happens with LED's..... they can look very intense but reflect little light back to see by as the power and lumens is just not there.

I don't regret my purchase, other than the fact I already had two other lights and didn't really need it, but its cool enough to buy anyway.


----------



## Richie086

PhantomPhoton said:


> A higher quality AR coated window, I'd say we're loosing 5%+ light with the one thats in there now.


 

Hi Phantom,

Do you think Flashlightlens.com sells a better AR coated lens that would working on this flashlight?


----------



## PhantomPhoton

I'm not sure. Haven't looked into it too much yet. Too busy preparing for the get together tomorrow in Seattle. I'll post back here if I find a nicer window that will fit. (I haven't even tried to remove the stock window yet so dunno if an easy swap is even possible.


----------



## DM51

I have removed a number of advertising links in this thread. Members are reminded that gratuitous advertising/promotion is not permitted.


----------



## zx7dave

PhantomPhoton said:


> I received my Oracle 35W yesterday. Overall I'm quite pleased for the price so far.
> 
> The color temp is closer to a 5000K by my eyes, but that doesn't bother me in the slightest... it's definitely not the over-blue 6000K that we're accustomed to seeing in cheap HIDs.
> 
> I'll have it out to the Seattle get together this Saturday and put it up against some other HIDs, maybe we'll manage some okay beamshots.
> 
> Overall if I could have three wishes to improve this light, they would be:
> An optional smooth(er) reflector for better throw... to heck with artifacts.
> A higher quality AR coated window, I'd say we're loosing 5%+ light with the one thats in there now.
> And HA instead of the powder coat.
> All minor things really. If we get the right leverage we may even be able to get a run of smooth reflectors. I'll have to search and see if I can find a nicer window that will fit out on the net.
> 
> I'll post up further thoughts if anything comes to my attention.


 


I appreciate you bringing this last night to the Seattle get together...a very impressive light for the cost...I can see one in my future....


----------



## MAWilsonPE

I just got one of these Oracle 35W's based on the reviews in this thread. New CPF member 

Does any one know of a wall mount bracket that will fit this?

Thanks..


----------



## Patriot

MAWilsonPE said:


> I just got one of these Oracle 35W's based on the reviews in this thread. New CPF member
> 
> Does any one know of a wall mount bracket that will fit this?
> 
> Thanks..




:welcome:


Looking at the options I'd have to say no. The seller would be able to ask that question the best though. Just go over to the Marketplace sales thread and ask there. My guess is that you'd have to go with something home made if you want to wall mount it.


----------



## PsTo

HI! im thinking abou buy this flashlight ,..pleas how larg is it ? and hov larg is the box ?

And my secnd question is ,..can i replace original bulb with 50 W hid xenon ? or replace with 35W but 12 000 K color teumprigue? 

thanks 

ps : When you have got phootos from it pleas upload it


----------



## Patriot

PsTo said:


> HI! im thinking abou buy this flashlight ,..pleas how larg is it ? and hov larg is the box ?
> 
> And my secnd question is ,..can i replace original bulb with 50 W hid xenon ? or replace with 35W but 12 000 K color teumprigue?
> 
> thanks
> 
> ps : When you have got phootos from it pleas upload it






Page 1 post 2 states 15" long or 380mm. There is also a picture of it in the hand on page one. 

The bulb isn't replaceable with a 50W bulb because the ballast is only a 35W watt ballast. Also it's a proprietary style bulb and igniter base so it doesn't use conventional automotive type bulb bases.

No HID bulb can produce 12K color temperature or even 8K without tinting the glass blue. Usually the closer the bulb temperature is to 4200K the better and the more output the bulb will have. You'll want to research color temperature here if you want to learn more about it. The "12000K" color temperatures and very blue beams are a fad started by the asian import car guys but they're terrible for lighting.


----------



## PsTo

ok and as it is focused? 
width, or into the distance 
im thinking about m2X and this .. what is more in the distance? Thank you


----------



## Patriot

PsTo said:


> ok and as it is focused?
> width, or into the distance
> im thinking about m2X and this .. what is more in the distance? Thank you




I'll try the best I can with your question but it's a little difficult to understand your English. No prob, I'll try to work through it. 

The light is pre-focused and non-adjustable. You can add shims to manually fine tune the focus as member BVH and others have done.

Regarding beam width versus distance we refer to that as flood vs. throw. With this kind of HID light it would be considered medium range which translates to several hundred yards of throw if it's dark enough out. Even the HID lights with the tightest beams still tend to produce a lot of spill light because of HID's high output nature. 

The M2X (I'll assume you're talking about the EagleTac) isn't even close to the same league as a 30W HID when it come to output or throw. Generally speaking, the Stanley should throw about 3-5 times further and produce 3-4 times as many lumens as a small reflectored tri-cree like the M2X. These are completely different types of lights though. If you need ultimate efficience, small size and multi-levels of output the M2X is a better choice. If you need maximum output and throw at the expense of size & runtime, then the Stanley is the better choice.


----------



## PhantomPhoton

Patriot, wrong light. 

The Oracle 35W HID is somewhat focusable. It has a heavy OP reflector so it doesn't get a super tight spot at any setting. But it still does throw well.

I don't understand what you mean by width or into the distance.

Between the Eagletac M2X and the Oracle 35W HID, which throws further? At the moment I'm likely one of the only people who has used both... the M2X still hasn't been released yet. :naughty:
I'd say they're close in throw but the Oracle does throw a bit further. However it is 3 times larger. But then again overall it puts out almost 5 times more light.


----------



## windstrings

PsTo said:


> HI! im thinking abou buy this flashlight ,..pleas how larg is it ? and hov larg is the box ?
> 
> And my secnd question is ,..can i replace original bulb with 50 W hid xenon ? or replace with 35W but 12 000 K color teumprigue?
> 
> thanks
> 
> ps : When you have got photos from it pleas upload it



Yes, its a flashlight, but its so bright, its a spotlight too.. It sounds like you didn't read this whole thread... go back and read the whole first page and you will get explanations as well as lots of pics.

The bulb is permanently mounted to the ballast "about a 65.00 cost to replace both, so no, you cannot put whatever bulb you want on as its only rated for 35Watts and its not a plug in type adapter anyway.


----------



## Wattnot

windstrings said:


> The bulb is permanently mounted to the ballast "about a 65.00 cost to replace both, so no, you cannot put whatever bulb you want on as its only rated for 35Watts and its not a plug in type adapter anyway.


 
When that day comes (where our first Oracle owner needs to replace the LA) save that ballast! I'm sure there's a tinkerer or two here who could have a lot of fun modding something with that! :twothumbs


----------



## windstrings

I don't know how hard it would be to access the internals of the ballast, but I'm sure there must be an adjustment somewhere inside... who knows what it could do?

The worst that could happen is a nuclear explosion...
or maybe just take out a portion of your block! :laughing:


----------



## Patriot

PhantomPhoton said:


> Patriot, wrong light.




LOL!!! boy was I off. I think I posted in too many threads in quick succession and thought I was writing about the Stanley still. Thanks for saying something though Phantom. 

My apologies for the mix up PsTo.


----------



## The Voice of Reason

Who sells these Oracle lights?


----------



## Houdiny

Hi there!

Since I live in Europe, it would be nice to know if the charger could handle 230V...
Anybody out there who's got an answer for me?
Thanks, 

Martin.


----------



## MAWilsonPE

The AC charger that came with mine says:
Switching Power Supply
Model: IT15V120180X
Input: 100-240V-50-60Hz 0.8A max
Output: 12.8V=1.8A
so yes, with a simple outlet prong adapter you should be able to use in Europe.


----------



## windstrings

Houdiny said:


> Hi there!
> 
> Since I live in Europe, it would be nice to know if the charger could handle 230V...
> Anybody out there who's got an answer for me?
> Thanks,
> 
> Martin.



Input of the home charger is 100 - 240 volts 50 - 60 Hz.. so I would say thats a yes.


----------



## windstrings

The Voice of Reason said:


> Who sells these Oracle lights?



Just do a search in Google for "oracle hid"

The top find, go there.
Click on products, then go to "oracle HID flashlights"

Looks like those are the regular prices... look as post #19 on this thread.

Call them up and tell them you are from here, they should sell it at the lower price.

p.s. I think there days are numbered on cpf unless they become a subscriber.
Maybe you could suggest that to Justin if he wants good exposure from here.


----------



## bullettproof

Can you get the Oracle 35W with VLOP or SMO reflectors??? I saw the THID had a VLOP in some pics.


----------



## windstrings

I would just ask them all those questions... his web site has pretty good comments, more than that, I would call.


----------



## Juggernaut

I just received mine in the mail “silver” It came off the charger and now I’m waiting for darkness, I’ll report back later:thumbsup:.


----------



## MAWilsonPE

In a previous thread someone had found that the AEX-25 lenses fit into the Oracle 24W. It appears that the 35W has the same size head as the 24W. Has anyone tried those lenses in a 35W?

Also where could I get a better reflector?

What are the chances of getting a spare light/ballast assembly? Think the ballast would handle a 50W mod?


----------



## Juggernaut

Update:
 
Ok ran it for about 15 minuets. It has a nice quality feel to it with no rattles and such, though feels a bit light, though it’s probably because I’m so use to heavy lights. On full rotation of the head in the opposite way it came, I get the most throw, though the beam “being so smooth and floody” makes it hard to judge this. This being my first HID I’m pretty impressed. It’s much brighter then my EDC-P7, though it’s beam reminds me of that light. Is very practical and I will be trying my hardest to find some reason or other to use this whenever I can:thumbsup:. I went down to the old corn field near my house for some rang comparisons. The field has many crops of trees and with Google Earth I can measure throw, first off it was quite misty tonight with low clouds and drizzle, so this reduced my light’s throw somewhat:ironic:. 
 
The farthest thing I could see “able to make out shape and some structure, like very large branches” was 868.91 feet away with the Oracle, 331 feet with my 18650 driven taskforce, and respectively _3,262.49_ feet “the road curves up and I can’t see any further down it” with my Cardboard Hexagon box light. At ranges under 600 feet the Oracle seemed much brighter and more intense then the Cardboard Hexagon light, it was only at very far distances that the difference in throw was apparent. One has to understand just how good the range of over 800 feet is with the Oracle, because it lights up _*everything:devil:*_ in this distance, it is a very floody beam with as much as 150 degrees of intense side spill. 
 
Here is the best my free, 6 year old camera can do. 
Hexagon box light, Oracle, EDC-P7:twothumbs.



 
Now in negative to show difference in intensity “I can’t underexpose on my camera, and as it was I was taking pictures under a pair of aviator glasses.” 



 
The Oracle and EDC-P7 really show about the real amount of difference in intensity, while my camera simply didn’t have a way to gage the intensity comparing the cardboard hexagon box light and the Oracle:duck:.


----------



## Richie086

Houdiny said:


> Hi there!
> 
> Since I live in Europe, it would be nice to know if the charger could handle 230V...
> Anybody out there who's got an answer for me?
> Thanks,
> 
> Martin.


 

Hi Martin,

The charger is rated at 100v-240v.


----------



## windstrings

MAWilsonPE said:


> Also where could I get a better reflector?
> 
> What are the chances of getting a spare light/ballast assembly? Think the ballast would handle a 50W mod?



I think the reflector in the L35 could be higher quality, but even that is hard to say because the Oracle is a true "flashlight" thats stinkin bright and the L35 is more of a spotlight.

Its hard to have your cake and eat it too.. there are only so many lumens to go around.

Either you spread the wealth and can see everywhere plenty bright or you focus it to the distance and see even better in the distance.

The oracle is a good balance of both if your seeking to see everything in front of you at once.

I really think the Oracles reflector is plenty good.. "remember" its got the orange peels layer to it to disperse light evenly which can take some definition away in the distance. 

I have the Oracle "35 watt", the L35 "35 watt" and the Xeray "75 Watt" affectionally called the "BB" or "barnburner".

Comparing the three, it appears the 35 watters are simply playing games with how they throw the lumens, but if you could gather the light from both on all points and measure it, I think they both put out the same, even though the throw characteristics are quite different.

The 75W, looks allot like the throw of the L35, but double the lumens and its quite obvious!

The Oracle is truely a "flashlight" in every sense of the word with a pattern that fits the conventional flashlight pattern, but smoother.

As for whether the ballast can be tweaked to 50W is anybodys guess.. chances are it will go higher, but how much and how hot, I don't know.
The existing 35W bulb should be able to take some more abuse to maybe as high as 50W but not likely last too long forcing you to buy a whole new assembly anyway then.

I"m not really into tweaking it anyway because it will kill runtime.

It would be fun however if you could have the two brightness modes that are already there (28watt and 35Watt) adjusted higher on the high end as I only see about a 5 watt difference between the two now.

If you have one, you will most likely agree, its much more than bright enough for any flashlight type job by far.... even at that, it will blow away most spotlights except those with gigantic reflectors measuring 8 plus inches.

Its hard for Halogen to compete with HID without a monster size reflector.

HID exhibits a sheer bath of Lumens in the foreground compared to Halogen.


----------



## MAWilsonPE

Windstrings, thanks for the info. This is my first HID and I am very impressed with it. Looks like I will keep the reflector but a few new lenses may be in its future. I opened up the ballast by removing the lamp end and it is fully potted so it will a CPF enthusiast to modify one.


----------



## windstrings

I was told a new ballast and bulb cost 65.00... so the worst that could happen is you have to buy another.

Let me know what you find out.

Although hitting the bulb with more voltage will give more light, it never seems to be the payback you would expect.

In other words.... Once your so bright, you "really" have to crank up the lumens to make a notable difference to the naked eye as it tends to adjust anyway to some degree.

You will basically see no more than you saw before.. but just better "if that makes sense".

Most of the time you pay a big price in energy from the battery for the amount of light you get. You could literally cut your runtime in half and notice every little difference.

A good example is the present settings of 28 and 35W... if you closed your eyes and opened them and I asked you which setting I was on, you would prob guess wrong 50% of the time. "or right".

If you figure out a way to leave the lower setting at 28W or maybe turning it up will raise them both?

I could see the usefulness of having the lower setting at 35W and the higher at 45 or so.

That way you could run it on the lower setting all the time unless you just wanted to show off.

I suppose I would do that now if I thought I was going on a long trek enough to risk running the battery down.. but so far, high is the only way I use it!


----------



## Patriot

> *Windstrings*
> Comparing the three, it appears the 35 watters are simply playing games with how they throw the lumens, but if you could gather the light from both on all points and measure it, I think they both put out the same, even though the throw characteristics are quite different.


This is a pretty big statement but I generally tend to agree with this for 35W lights which are under $500. The 35W Polarion X1 and Xeray would probably show higher numbers than my group of lights below but I think Windy makes a good general observation. 

Here are some lux readings of a few 35W I recently checked. 

*K3500R "3500" lumens 144.4 lux
N30 "3200" lumens 152.6 lux (borrowed from my bro)
X990 3200 lumens 154.0 lux
POB 3000+ lumens 159.0 lux





MAWilson, *there is really no way to take a 28-35W ballast and "mod" it into a 50W ballast. It's just not possible. I you meant a 50W mod by installing a 50W bulb, that's also not going to do anything other than give you a terribly under driven 50W bulb. When it comes to 50W options you'll have to either look at new lights that where designed at 50W like the Xeray50 or install a 50W ballast and bulb in an automotive based spotlight. 

I think it would be great if we had more 50W mainstream product options from manufacturers but unfortunately we don't. Even Polarion has stopped making their 50W model which has to make it one of the rarest factory offerings in existence....... 20-30 lights perhaps?


----------



## windstrings

The Xeray has a bigger reflector and is excellent quality and the Polarion has an "extremely" polished reflector and maybe a tad bigger too without doing my homework. Both cost big bucks compared to the Oracle and are more "spotlights" than flashlights.

A good quality bulb can be overdriven. The 75W Barnburner uses a 50W bulb and does just fine, but its a very good quality bulb.

So I would think even a cheap 35W bulb could take a 40 - 45W hit.
But Whether the ballast will do the job is a whole different story.

If you can trace who makes them maybe they will tell you, otherwise its experimentation... but yes, many ballast have a pod that can be adjusted inside thus cranking up their power.


Based on how thier made, they may have a runtime limit due to heat if adjusted so.


----------



## Patriot

The Polarion is quite a bit smaller percentage wise Windy. 3" compared to 4.25" I really wasn't referring the the Xeray and Polarion having higher output due to their reflectors but mainly due to ballast efficiency and true power output.




Regarding those few ballasts that actually have an output adjustment dial, here is one example of how that can go:

https://www.candlepowerforums.com/posts/2471192&postcount=187

https://www.candlepowerforums.com/posts/2473460&postcount=195

All of page 7 of this thread:
https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/196233&page=7


----------



## windstrings

I measured my Oracle.... the reflector is only 2.75 inches in diameter for my 35Watt.

It would be fun to see a shootout.

Dollar per dollar, you get alot more lumens with the cheaper lights.... but its whether you want a Cadillac or a beetle.

The Oracle is allot of light for the money though...but so is the L35 and I like them both and they are really an apple and an orange... I guess the Oracle is the orange since it has the peel! 

The higher end lights are much better, but I can't say "you get what you pay for" because some of those lights cost close to ten times more or thereabouts and still aren't waterresistant as is the Oracle.

At least with the Barnburner you see a physical difference in lumens.... the difference between the others is rather subliminal and when you see shootouts, its often take allot of study to determine which light is which.

It takes more money to have lots of lumens with a small reflector.... that being said, the small reflector of the Oracle does an outstanding job.

When comparing lights of the same power, yes some ballast are more efficient, but not enough you would notice IMO.


----------



## MAWilsonPE

Thanks guys, this is great info. Forgive me as I am a ChE not an EE but have been known to tinker with a soldering gun. I do alot of custom chip tuning for hot rod cars, mostly Ford, a majority are supercharged or turbo'd. People spend 1000's on bolt-on parts and then I make them run right :twothumbs I have tuned some wild stuff, 980Hp Mustang, 550 Hp Focus, 1400Hp Viper, etc, so I know a bit about car electronics and reprogramming chips. 

I love my Oracle 35W and am just curious about mods, all talk at this point. I was thinking a 50W bulb and upgrades to the ballast to handle it. Not really sure how this type of light works electrically, are there any posts where a mere ChE can learn some HID circuitry basics?

Btw, what is the conversion for lumens to Hp?


----------



## windstrings

Most of what I have learned are in post where people are doing cutting edge lights and or mods.
Dan who manufactures the Xeray ballast that powers his 35W, 50W and 75W has shared a tremendous amount of info over many threads.

Do a search for "barnburner" and you will find plenty... that refers to his 75W version. 
But there are many other threads too.

Its a bit easier to overdrive a HID bulb than it is to put a 50W in and under-drive it. The latter will cause it to either not fire, or have to be refired upon occasion and maybe even display artifacts as all the material in the bulb may not get properly vaporized.

If you figure out a way to crank up the ballast, I would keep the same bulb unless you finally toasted it and then wanted to experiment with a 50W bulb... but thats just my opinion.

The reason I say that is, unless you can get a good clean 50W to hit a 50W bulb with, I would rather overdrive a 35W.


----------



## tittelba

*Re: Oracle 35W HID-battery?*

Hi,
I've been looking into purchasing either the 24W or 35W version of this Oracle HID but I'm concerned with the battery issue. I've read on the 24W thread that runtime isn't what it should be and after repeated cycles the runtime can drop significantly. Is anyone having battery issues with the 35W Oracle HID?

Thanks!
Tom


----------



## windstrings

I haven't had mine long enough to know of any problems.. so far so good on the 35W.


----------



## Patriot

I've been following the two lights from a distance and it seems that all of the problems were with the early 24W DC lights. I've considered buying the 35W light just because others seem so pleased with it.


----------



## windstrings

My only gripe with the Oracle 35Watt is its really too long to store in the car unless its in the back somewhere... too long for glove box or console.
But I suppose it would fit in my boat nicely.

But it is a handsome beast... especially at that price.


----------



## PhantomPhoton

Runtime has been as expected on my 35W. No problems yet after about 6 cycles.


----------



## Frock_Freak

windstrings said:


> My only gripe with the Oracle 35Watt is its really too long to store in the car unless its in the back somewhere... too long for glove box or console.
> But I suppose it would fit in my boat nicely.
> 
> But it is a handsome beast... especially at that price.



I dont have one of these (yet?) but if I did, I'd keep it under the seat.

PS. was any progress every made with getting a run on a pure mirror reflector? Someone mentioned something about that early on in this thread.


----------



## ndompierre

Hi everyone, first post here, I've bough this flashlight (Oracle 35w HID) about 7 weeks ago. i love this light but i get battery issues. The battery self discharge at a very high rate.

I fully charged the battery when i received the flashilight and did'nt used is much. The voltage was 12.6v
The last week (6 weeks later) , i needed to use the flashlight. the flashlight turn itself off after 15 seconds.
The voltage was 11.1v.

I thinked, Probably the button get "on" alone in the box, and the flashlight discharged.

I fully charged it the last week to 12.6v, and put the battery on the tablet.
Today (1 week later), i take out the flashlight. It self turn off after 2 minutes... Another voltage of 11.1v

Am i alone with battery isues on Oracke 35w ?
I know that some problemes ocured with the 24w but not with the 35w.


----------



## Patriot

I've heard of no self discharge issues with either the 24W or 35W Oracle lights. Li-ion batteries should last 6 months or even much longer without self discharging. Your light definitely has a problem with its circuit somewhere and should be send back for warranty repair or replacement. 

Sorry to hear that you're having trouble.


----------



## windstrings

Yep... one week... I would think the LED running continuous might last that long!


----------



## troller_cpf

*Oracle 35W HID?*

Hi everyone guys!
I'm new in this forum. I am looking for a long-throwing HID flashlight that can throw up to 3000 lumens... I was checking the Oracle 35W, which is very cheap. anyone has it or tested it?
thanks!


----------



## Houdiny

*Re: Oracle 35W HID?*

Hi Troller!

That light's been discussed before...
https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/224303

Those "Hey-I've-found-an-interesting-HID-light"-threads mysteriously are popping up quite often lately, don't you think?

Regards,
Houdiny


----------



## troller_cpf

*Re: Oracle 35W HID?*

thanks!!


----------



## Juggernaut

*Re: Oracle 35W HID?*

When you state “throw up to 3000 Lumens” do you mean “throw” as in distance? Or simply the amount of lumens coming out:thinking:? Because as I stated in another thread the Oracle is not exactly a throw oriented light “though it will throw, but that’s not what it’s meant for” If you just want a high power spotlight for creating a very thin beam that will really reach out and hit something far off, then something like the new Stanley H.I.D. “mentioned in other threads” will suffice for a very good cheap price:thumbsup:. However if you are looking for a cheap price quality “_flashlight_” with a near flawless smooth flood like beam for general illumination “to the _*extreme*_” machine aluminum / rain proof construction:thumbsup:, with a very nice color temperature beam “around 5,000 Kelvin “close to true white”, vs. The Stanley’s 8,000 Kelvin “more blue / purplish color “ Then the Oracle is more what your looking for. I mean I’m not to say you can’t go for a walk around the block with a spotlight styled light as the Stanly “It will get the job done” but it will be a lot more awkward and you really don’t need all that throw in general use such as walking down the street. Also the Oracle has a longer run time:twothumbs.


----------



## DM51

*Re: Oracle 35W HID?*

I'm merging this new thread with the main one linked above by Houdiny.


----------



## ndompierre

*Re: Oracle 35W HID?*

Hi all,
I have some feedback with my battery problem. I almost found my problem. 

1. For the runtime problem: The protection circuit of the cell was "broken". When the battery was at 12.13v, the protection circuit cut the current. I can left the battery charger 2 day long, the best voltage i can get is 12.13v. A fully charged battery must be 12.60v. So I removed the protection circuit. (This is not a real issue since the flashlight turn off itself at about 10v. and the charger deliver no amps at 12.69v.) This way, i get 65 minutes runtime.

2. The self discharge problem: Even with the protection circuit removed, i noticed a voltage drop of about 0.06v-0.09v per day. I was really concerned about that. I plugged my amp meter between the battery and the circuit board and noticed a current draw of 3.23 ma. I don't know if it's a design flaw of the Digital On/Off button or my circuit is just broken. Roughtly, if the battery capacity is really 4400 ma, after 57 days, the battery get completely discharged. I've put a little switch to be able to disconnect the battery pack from the circuit. It's also usefull since i can't accidentaly turn the battery pack on.


I'm curious about other members Oracle/Tactical HID Battery voltage over days...


----------



## PhantomPhoton

Mine's been sitting (fully charged) for about a month or so, I'll check it tomorrow if I remember to. Interesting findings, thanks.


----------



## CUL8R

I'm considering one of these. Price/features seems very good. But I'm concerned there may be a drain on the battery when the light is sitting unused. Any update on this? Phantom, did you get a chance to check yours?


----------



## windstrings

OMG... you are absolutely right!... Mine's been sitting on top of my bookshelf for several weeks and its completely dead!.. the LED will not even light up!

When I put it on the charger, the LED will then work if I turn it on and when putting back in the light, the HID will try to fire, but cannot after only a few seconds of charge.

Its obvious the battery is dead..... this should not be.


----------



## windstrings

Well for all of you guys I contacted.... my light is no longer for sale... I'm simply returning it. I thought I would give someone a good deal but I didn't realize this was an issue.

I did talk to Justin and he agreed to take the light back minus a 15% restocking fee which I didn't mind since I was going to sell it for only 175.00 anyway. My light is only 2 months old.

The issue with the restocking fee is that it could be waived if I wanted to let them hold it for several weeks to see if it drained the way I described and so would then get a full replacement at no charge.
However, He did say if you store the light with the battery "inside" the light you risk it discharging. I didn't understand why, but thats the scoop.

I"ve never tried storing the battery "outside" the light, but thats not good for me as I need to be able to store a light and when I grab it to use, its ready. One of the reasons I always go lithium whenever possible.

I also prefer the ability to charge the battery "outside" the light. If they decide to tap into the circuitry where the battery connects inside the light and make a charge port, this draining issue inside the light would be much more of a non issue as you could simply store it on charge all the time.

It sounds like at this point as long as you don't mind keeping the battery on charge "outside" the light "as thats the only way you can charge it at this point", there wouldn't be any issues about discharging.

I suggested if the external charging port was installed that the light would be much more marketable even if the price was higher IMO.

Regardless, he was a gentleman about the whole issue and noted that maybe mines defective as he stated he has stored his for several weeks "inside" the flashlight without noting any discharge.


----------



## CUL8R

This sounds like the same issue that is turning up on a lot of the newer multimode LEDS. The control circuitry on some of those lights is drawing power from the battery even when the light is off. Two of my LEDS have this issue. On My EagleTac M2XC4, I can solve the issue by unscrewing the head a certain amount, thus breaking the circuit and removing power. On my Olight M30 that doesn't work, so I put in a thin piece of carboard between the tailcap spring and the battery. I wonder if you could unscrew the Oracle enough to break the circuit, and just tighten it before use?

Jim


----------



## windstrings

CUL8R said:


> I wonder if you could unscrew the Oracle enough to break the circuit, and just tighten it before use?
> Jim


Very good question... what confuses me is the LED circuit "I assume thats what circuit you say is drawing power" has a switch thats left to off at all times unless you want to take the battery out and use it as an LED light.

But maybe the circuit still pulls power, even with the LED switch off.
A feature thats "not" desirable IMO.


----------



## CUL8R

windstrings said:


> Very good question... what confuses me is the LED circuit "I assume thats what circuit you say is drawing power" has a switch thats left to off at all times unless you want to take the battery out and use it as an LED light.
> 
> But maybe the circuit still pulls power, even with the LED switch off.
> A feature thats "not" desirable IMO.


 
Wind,

Sorry for the confusion. I was just making a comparison to two of the newer LED flashlights that I happen to have. They are two of the newer high output LED lights available now (both in the range of 900 lumens from the emitters. The point I was trying to make is that both lights have a small constant current drain when turned off due to how the internal circuitry is set up. This small current drain will eventually drain the batteries even when the light sits unused. 

It seems likely the Oracle is wired in a similar manner, with its controller cicuitry always drawing power from the battery. Unfortunately, this "flaw" seems to be showing up in more and more lights lately.


----------



## windstrings

No prob.. these are things that are hard to discover until you buy one.... at least the cutting edge stuff.

As little power LED's draw and as Little Heat, seems there is almost no limit to how many Cree's you could cram into a reflector..... Although I'm delighted LED has progressed so far, I"m still puzzled why someone hasn't gone nuts and made one comparable to the HID's in output.


----------



## recDNA

Does this light flicker like the 24 watt version?

How hot does it get? How fast? 

Is there still a cpf discount available? Where? Code?


----------



## windstrings

No flickering at all that I recall.

Seems you just have to find the right website to get the discount.
Here is a couple:

*[Links deleted. Dealer discounts should be discussed in the MP - DM51]*

But you can always call them and give them your username from cpf and they will honor the lower price. Ask for Justin

Doesn't really get hot per se.... its always warm and comfortable to touch as I recall.
The 35 has allot more heat sink than the 24 I would assume even with the higher output.


----------



## The Voice of Reason

windstrings said:


> Just do a search in Google for "oracle hid"
> 
> The top find, go there.
> Click on products, then go to "oracle HID flashlights"
> 
> Looks like those are the regular prices... look as post #19 on this thread.
> 
> Call them up and tell them you are from here, they should sell it at the lower price.
> 
> p.s. I think there days are numbered on cpf unless they become a subscriber.
> Maybe you could suggest that to Justin if he wants good exposure from here.



Thanks very much, mate!


----------



## ndompierre

windstrings said:


> However, He did say if you store the light with the battery "inside" the light you risk it discharging. I didn't understand why, but thats the scoop.
> 
> I"ve never tried storing the battery "outside" the light, but thats not good for me as I need to be able to store a light and when I grab it to use, its ready. One of the reasons I always go lithium whenever possible.


 

Well, i always stored the battery outside the light and the current draw was still here. It seems to be a design flaw. I'm also curious about the battery of the 24w version !


----------



## Patriot

It sounds like you have a broken/faulty protection circuit. See the 24W Oracle thread and the work that BVH is doing. I also linked a nifty little PCB in that thread which is available at Battery Junction.


----------



## ndompierre

Patriot said:


> It sounds like you have a broken/faulty protection circuit. See the 24W Oracle thread and the work that BVH is doing. I also linked a nifty little PCB in that thread which is available at Battery Junction.


 
Yes, my protection circuit was faulty, but the current draw was there after i removed it, so i think that the clickie circuit is faulty.


----------



## Patriot

ndompierre said:


> Yes, my protection circuit was faulty, but the current draw was there after i removed it, so i think that the clickie circuit is faulty.




Oh, so you suspect the switch itself has a draw! In some ways that's almost worse. I'm not sure what you can do about that but if that's the case, at least you can remove it from the light to prevent it from discharging.


----------



## windstrings

Since you have to take the battery out of the light anyway to charge it.... would have been nice if they just used a conventional format such as CR123's or 18650's or 18500's so that folks could purchase that part themselves.

It lowers the initial cost of the light but the ballast would have to be built independent of the battery which seems to be the choice every other manufacturer has taken.
Not sure what the idea is behind making them as one unit... but as with anything, the more something is integrated, the more risk of problems and those problems will take out the whole unit easier should they arise.

This little issue about the battery self discharging has become a big issue.
The choice of adding the battery pack with the unit verses giving the customer a choice and/or having them buy the battery separate is merely a marketing decision.
I do like the latitude to use the latest, best battery in a given format "which is harder to do if the pack is already pre-assembled into a bulk pack" without custom modding.

Too bad about this little glitch, because the light itself seems to be good.
If the ballast was not connected to the battery, even the vendors here in the states could modify it and sell a modifyed version that removed the weaknesses of the foreign model.

It lessens the benefit in using LiIon if they are going to self drain when not on charge.

This little issue is not subliminal at all and should have been caught during production unless it was rushed to market before time, else they figured it was a non issue "which I disagree".
China seems to throw out allot of half baked items with its frantic competition to get a product to market.... "almost reminds me of Microsoft!.... 

Keep in mind, I'm stating all this "assuming" the issue I experienced is with them all and not just a "malfunction" with the one I had.
When I called in, they insisted my issue was with them all in respect that they would drain down if left in the light.

It is hard medicine to swallow to present a light at a very good price and then have the market rip it to shreds as they expect it to be perfect.

But welcome to the CPF club.... the critics here show little mercy and expect excellence regardless of price if a feature is advertised or if a given performance of a feature has become a standard based on the competition.

Its not like the type of battery being used here is so cutting edge that it cannot be found by sources and vendors that have proven them already.

If features are low or missing on a product and is reflected by the price... so be it, but if a feature that is reported as being there does not perform as expected.... look out for cold hard scrutiny!
People would rather not have a feature than have one that fails.

My main gripe about the Oracle is that it seems to be a half baked pie in the sense that the manual is barely written in proper english as has lots of holes and misrepresentations in its explanations.
There are statements of fact that are negated as false when you call in to question about them.

If a manufacturer is going to sell a product from another foreign company, seems someone would go through the trouble to interpret and bring the manual up to speed to answer the calls that pour in.


People are only offended when they expect something and don't get it.

If *A.* The advertising accurately reflects the product Sold *B. *The Manual accurately reflects the specs and characteristics of use, it will remove most of the opportunity for offense from the customer.

Too much advertising only says the highlights of the good and leaves out the bad.... if the bad is left out, it should not be found later by the customers if that product expects to survive for long.


----------



## ndompierre

Patriot said:


> Oh, so you suspect the switch itself has a draw! In some ways that's almost worse. I'm not sure what you can do about that but if that's the case, at least you can remove it from the light to prevent it from discharging.


 
Since the clickie circuit is integrated in the battery, i installed a switch that completely disconnect the battery pack from the clickie circuit. Now, i have no more problems !


----------



## windstrings

ndompierre said:


> Since the clickie circuit is integrated in the battery, i installed a switch that completely disconnect the battery pack from the clickie circuit. Now, i have no more problems !




good job!.....that should be an easy fix now if they choose to pursue it.

Its good to know the problem is not deeper.


----------



## Patriot

windstrings said:


> Since you have to take the battery out of the light anyway to charge it.... would have been nice if they just used a conventional format such as CR123's or 18650's or 18500's so that folks could purchase that part themselves.





Good post Windy. I think the main reason that these lights come with rechargeable packs and built in PCB's is due mainly to the number of cells we're talking about and the technical knowledge of the average buyer. In the case of the 35W Oracle you're talking about six cells. Most chargers are two bay chargers with an average charging time of 2-4 hours. The average Joe/Jane would get fed up with that type of arrangement rather quickly. People don't like to fuss with individual batteries in general and also means that the manufacturer would have to provide the light with protected cells to prevent a li-ion mishap. 

I am seeing something happen in the industry that gives me some hope that we'll eventually see HID lights sold without a pack and charger, and instead just the light itself ready to accept the cells of our choice. The Fenix TK40 P7 light uses 8 X AA cells with the standard thinking that most users with opt for NiMh rechargeables. The fact that a now popular manufacturer is actually endorsing the rechargeable option on a high cell count light is encouraging. The main difference in that case though is that a person can use standard AA if that's all they know. 

The EagleTac M2, JB M1X, Olight M30 and others are only two cell li-ion rechargeables but it's another step in the right direction. The NeoFaB L2 is a 3 x 18650, MC-E light and even though it's a low production light, it's nice to see people willing to seperately charge 3 of their own cells to use with that light. What we really need is some good 4,6 and even 8 bay li-ion chargers to become available before multi-naked cell, li-ion lights can get popular. By multi-cell, I mean 3 or more.


----------



## CUL8R

ndompierre said:


> Since the clickie circuit is integrated in the battery, i installed a switch that completely disconnect the battery pack from the clickie circuit. Now, i have no more problems !


 
ndompierre,

I'm finally going to buy one of these this week (wish the silver ones weren't backordered) and I'd sure like to see how you put your switch in. Any pictures and/or instructions? I want to do the same thing to avoid any possibility of parasitic discharge.

Jim


----------



## CUL8R

Does anyone have any longer range beam shots for this light? I'd really like to see what to expect at 100-200 yards.

Jim


----------



## Patriot

CUL8R said:


> Does anyone have any longer range beam shots for this light? I'd really like to see what to expect at 100-200 yards.
> 
> Jim




I briefly searched for you but didn't find anything. 

One thing that I've learned is that beamshots of any light usually aren't representative on anything unless they're directly compared to something else that you're familiar with. You end up really having to rely on the camera and photographer to capture a realistic exposure which can be very difficult. Most of the time if I can get to within one F-stop of light accuracy I'm overjoyed. The reason that I can get away with these inaccuracies is that I'm comparing several other well known lights which adds relevance and perspective. 

It sort of depends on what types of lights you're used to in order to help you understand how a 35W, OP reflectored, light like the Oracle will perform. Generally speaking, if you're new to HID you'll be jaw droped by this type of light.


----------



## windstrings

I agree... unless you've had exposure to higher wattage HID's you "will" be impressed!

The only thing I can add is a little of the lumens of this light is used for lots of spill, otherwise, the distance shot is pretty much the same.... just not quite "as much" once you get there.. but the distance is there.

In other words.... it will have the same throw as the best 35W HID spotlight out there, but keep in mind that some of the light is also used for spill and periphery rather than "just" distance like a pure spotlight would be. At that lighted area at 300 yards will not be as concentrated in one spot as its spread more.
Nevertheless, with that being said, it does have a very nice hot spot in the center that penetrates the distance.

This is more of an awesome flashlight!

It will be the most impressive flashlight you've ever put your hands on I'm sure.

When it comes to performance or making an impression, this light will deliver.


----------



## Richie086

windstrings said:


> I agree... unless you've had exposure to higher wattage HID's you "will" be impressed!
> 
> The only thing I can add is a little of the lumens of this light is used for lots of spill, otherwise, the distance shot is pretty much the same.... just not quite "as much" once you get there.. but the distance is there.


 

As I've said in the past, the 35w is a great all-around HID flashlight. It's fairly tight and adjustable beam yields good distance and the excellent spill allows it to be used in close quarters or walking through thick woods. Add to the fact it's 4300k, make it a great choice for most any situation and at a fair price. 

With two dealers on this forum, Tactical HID and Oracle, you won't have to risk sending money to someone off in China and wonder if you'll even recieve it.


----------



## BVH

Richie, do either of your Oracles have the self-discharge issue?


----------



## Richie086

BVH said:


> Richie, do either of your Oracles have the self-discharge issue?


 

Nope, the Tactical HID 24w and the Oracle 24w and the one 35w battery packs work as they should.


----------



## ndompierre

CUL8R said:


> ndompierre,
> 
> I'm finally going to buy one of these this week (wish the silver ones weren't backordered) and I'd sure like to see how you put your switch in. Any pictures and/or instructions? I want to do the same thing to avoid any possibility of parasitic discharge.
> 
> Jim


 
I will be very happy to post pictures of what i've done, but i wil do this in 1 month, my flashlight is in my trailer, and i will go there in 2 weeks for 2 weeks.

I can explain what i've done.

I've used a mini swith rated 4 amps 12v
I opened the battery container on the connectors end (where's the 3 led light) removing 3 screws.

I drilled a little hole on the side of the container just where the battery finish inside and make it wider with my dremel 

I cutted the positive wire between the battery pack and the board. and soldered wires to extend them, and soldered to the switch.

I cutted a plastic plate of 1/16 inches that that fit perfectly inside the aluminium compartment of the battery. 

Now i fitted the plastic plate inside the container on the top of the battery, put the switch on it. The tip of the switch must be accessible by the little hole but fit flush. I hot glued the switch on the plate, and closed the container.


----------



## ndompierre

Richie086 said:


> Nope, both my 24w and 35w battery packs work as they should.


 
I'm curious Richie, did you left them sit on the shelves for 2 months or more ? By what i discovered (a 3.3 milliamps draw from the clickie board) it take about 2 month to fully discharge the battery. i was able to see a voltage drop of about 0.08v per day steadily.

Me and windstrings probably got defective clickie board.


----------



## Richie086

ndompierre said:


> I'm curious Richie, did you left them sit on the shelves for 2 months or more ? By what i discovered (a 3.3 milliamps draw from the clickie board) it take about 2 month to fully discharge the battery. i was able to see a voltage drop of about 0.08v per day steadily.
> 
> Me and windstrings probably got defective clickie board.


 

Hi ND,

The longest I've let my (2) 24w and 35w sit for is about a month. Recently I needed all of them during a long blackout here. They were all fully charged before sitting for that amount of time and ran for roughy what they should have. 

About 35-40 minutes for the 24w Oracle and about 50 minutes for the 6000k model I purchased from Tactical HID. The 35 watt Oracle ran somewhere past an hour being used on the 28 watt mode. I had no idea what the battery voltage was on any of them at the time I needed to use them. However, all my HID flashlights are always fully charged before stored and the batteries inside the unit ready for use. I hope this information helps a bit.


----------



## CUL8R

Patriot said:


> I briefly searched for you but didn't find anything.
> 
> 
> It sort of depends on what types of lights you're used to in order to help you understand how a 35W, OP reflectored, light like the Oracle will perform. Generally speaking, if you're new to HID you'll be jaw droped by this type of light.


 
Most of my recent experience is with LEDs. My two brightest LEDS being an Olight M30 and an EagleTac M2XC4. I did stop by my local wallyworld and buy a Stanley HID about a week ago, but haven't gotten it up to the isolated area (no lights) where our cabin is yet, and its hard to get a good idea how good it is here in town (Colorado Springs).

I'm going to be ordering a 35W Oracle in the next day or two. Can't wait to try it out (and the Stanley) up at camp. There is a lot of wildlife up at our cabin, and we have a number of Giant breed dogs that go up there with us. Before I take them out at night I need to make certain there aren't any deer of elk close by first. The dogs are well behaved but if they startled a deer and it ran, they might try to catch it . And it'd also be good to see the occasional visiting black bear before I stumble into him at night. Although to be honest, they usually run away as fast as they can when they encounter a human.:laughing:


----------



## windstrings

I just recently purchased the M1X "which I love"... its LED "quad" and quite impressive...... But jumping to HID will be quite a jump.

I think your going to be delightfully surprised at the performance!

LED's just can't quite compare yet.

As good as some of the single LED's are, they don't have the total lumens throw the HID's are capable of.
And the LED lights that combine several LED's can get the lumens, but don't have the throw due to the reflectors being too tiny for each LED.

HID's are not instant on as LED's are and the lights will tend to be more fragile and heavier.

LED's have come a long long way and carry unique advantages... but HID is still quite impressive!.. An impression thats hard to beat if you want a long distance throw light.

Its hard to get tired of it... everytime you turn it on, you'll be amazed all over again at the massive amount of light and lumens it throws and how it just literally lights up the world in front of you!


----------



## CUL8R

ndompierre said:


> I will be very happy to post pictures of what i've done, but i wil do this in 1 month, my flashlight is in my trailer, and i will go there in 2 weeks for 2 weeks.
> 
> I can explain what i've done.


 
Thank you. I appreciate the info. I'm ordering the light in the next day or two. I'm willing to try to keep my hands off it for a couple of months after I test it and fully try it out. That way I can see if I have the same problem. If so, it'll be time to install a switch in mine also. It'd be really nice if storing the light with the tailcap loose would fix the problem. That is the way I have to store my LED M2XC4 to prevent parasitic loss.

Jim


----------



## Juggernaut

windstrings said:


> I"m still puzzled why someone hasn't gone nuts and made one comparable to the HID's in output.


 
Have you seen Electrolumens newest light, 8,400+ Lumens out the front!, it that enough LED power for you?
(Never Mind I saw that you did.)


----------



## Patriot

CUL8R said:


> Most of my recent experience is with LEDs. My two brightest LEDS being an Olight M30 and an EagleTac M2XC4. I did stop by my local wallyworld and buy a Stanley HID about a week ago, but haven't gotten it up to the isolated area (no lights) where our cabin is yet, and its hard to get a good idea how good it is here in town (Colorado Springs).
> 
> I'm going to be ordering a 35W Oracle in the next day or two. Can't wait to try it out (and the Stanley) up at camp. There is a lot of wildlife up at our cabin, and we have a number of Giant breed dogs that go up there with us. Before I take them out at night I need to make certain there aren't any deer of elk close by first. The dogs are well behaved but if they startled a deer and it ran, they might try to catch it . And it'd also be good to see the occasional visiting black bear before I stumble into him at night. Although to be honest, they usually run away as fast as they can when they encounter a human.:laughing:







Ok, well I think you'll be amazed at the difference in performance between the two LED lights you mentioned and the two HID's your speaking of. You'll be seeing about 4-5 times the overall output of he others and 2-3 times the lux on target. That means you'll at least double the range at which you can effectively spot things at night and while you're up at camp and this this will become immediately evident. Have fun and try to get some pictures. I love Colorado!


----------



## windstrings

Juggernaut said:


> Have you seen Electrolumens newest light, 8,400+ Lumens out the front!, it that enough LED power for you?
> (Never Mind I saw that you did.)



Juggernaut, I'm excited at the cutting edge innovations Electrolumens is bringing to the table. With instant on, ruggedness, low power consumption etc, I would jump on the 8400 lumen LED if it had throw.

But I believe its going to be like a handful of very bright low throw lights bundled together!

If you want to light up the world right in front of you.. that will be the light for you... a tad expensive for no throw for me however.

Even if you light a thousand candles... I understand that all that light will still light up a distant spot more than one candle.... but my question is "which one will light up a white pie plate at 300 yards the most?

Based on the answer I got, the 12 LED P7 Kong is not what I'm looking for.

I don't want to discourage anyone else who may want it.. just make sure you know what your getting. Especially for what its going to cost.
He compares it to HID's that cost a ton for that many lumens, but its comparing an apple with an orange.

Each of those 12 LED's have a very tiny reflector.

As you know "tiny reflectors" are only so efficient to transmit light.

Take the same single LED that has a tiny reflector and give it a 3 inch reflector or larger and the throw and even total lumen output goes crazy!
The M1X and others are a good example.

If we could get 12 LED's in one housing that all had 3 inch reflectors.. guess how big the final reflector would be?

IMO, the 3500 lumen HID will outthrow the 8400 lumen Kong 12 LED for distance big time!.... Oracle is far cheaper than the Kong will be.

I"m basing that on my experience because i have the 9000+ lumen HID barnburner 80+Watt HID.

Having all those lumens going one basic direction is devastating, but being scattered in multidirections from many tiny reflectors has a different effect.


----------



## LOUSYGREATWALLGM

*35W Oracle HID Flashlight*

Hi guys, I've just registered and my first post on this forum. Can anyone tell me where to find the replacement o-ring for the battery cover? Thanks in advance!


----------



## LOUSYGREATWALLGM

Hi guys, sorry coz its off topic but after reading this thread it seems that you guys are prof when it comes to flashlight so I think I can get my answer here. I'm trying to find a replacement o-ring for the 35W Oracle HID flashlight battery cover coz my o-ring is damaged :huh:. Any suggestion where to find one? Thanks!


----------



## DM51

*Re: 35W Oracle HID Flashlight*

Welcome to CPF, LOUSYGREATWALLGM. I'm sure a story goes with that name, lol.

I'm merging your thread with the main one about this light.


----------



## LOUSYGREATWALLGM

*Re: 35W Oracle HID Flashlight*



DM51 said:


> Welcome to CPF, LOUSYGREATWALLGM. I'm sure a story goes with that name, lol.
> 
> I'm merging your thread with the main one about this light.



Thanks! But please delete the first post. Didn't know it will merged with this thread


----------



## BVH

Hello and welcome to CPF! AdvancedAutomotiveConcepts.com sells the lights and spare batteries. Contact them to see if they will sell you what you're looking for.


----------



## LOUSYGREATWALLGM

BVH said:


> Hello and welcome to CPF! AdvancedAutomotiveConcepts.com sells the lights and spare batteries. Contact them to see if they will sell you what you're looking for.



Will do. Thanks!


----------



## Patriot

LOUSYGREATWALLGM said:


> Hi guys, sorry coz its off topic but after reading this thread it seems that you guys are prof when it comes to flashlight so I think I can get my answer here. I'm trying to find a replacement o-ring for the 35W Oracle HID flashlight battery cover coz my o-ring is damaged :huh:. Any suggestion where to find one? Thanks!





As the others have stated AAC will gladly take care of you and if you should need anything quicker than that, I've found in my own personal experience that ACE Hardware has carried every size flashlight o-ring that I've ever needed. I suspect that Lowes and Home Depot would also. Usually there is an actual size print of the o-ring on the outside of the container or bin. By just holding the o-ring up to the picture for matching I'm able to narrow it down to 2 or 3 possibilities within a few seconds. 

Also

:welcome:


----------



## LOUSYGREATWALLGM

Thanks Patriot  so which size fits perfect on the battery cover, 1-1/4, 1-1/2 or ? Do ACE Hardware sell flashlight o-ring or just the common o-rings we find from hardwares?


----------



## BVH

Lousygreatwallgm, there is no "O-ring" on my 24 Watt Oracle battery, which looks to be nearly the same as the 35 Watt battery, just shorter. Are you talking about the rubber cover that goes over the LED's end of the battery when not in use? If so, you'll need to get that from a retailer such as the one I mentioned above. Hopefully, they can get it.


----------



## Patriot

LOUSYGREATWALLGM said:


> Thanks Patriot  so which size fits perfect on the battery cover, 1-1/4, 1-1/2 or ? Do ACE Hardware sell flashlight o-ring or just the common o-rings we find from hardwares?





I know it's kind of dependent on what piece we're talking about in light of BVH's question to you but the o-rings are from ACE are just common, which also appear to be made of a silicone of some type. They don't seem to swell if I use silicone based or lithium based greases. Good quality.


----------



## BVH

Ahhhh....I'm with the program now. It's the tailcap O-Ring! Since I just took my Oracle battery pack apart by removing the battery cover, that's what I was thinking about.


----------



## LOUSYGREATWALLGM

yep yep.. that's the o-ring I need! I'll try to check from my local hardwares then. :tinfoil:


----------



## BVH

It should be very easy to find one are Ace Hardware, Home Depot, Loews.


----------



## Juggernaut

windstrings said:


> Juggernaut, I'm excited at the cutting edge innovations Electrolumens is bringing to the table. With instant on, ruggedness, low power consumption etc, I would jump on the 8400 lumen LED if it had throw.
> 
> But I believe its going to be like a handful of very bright low throw lights bundled together!
> 
> If you want to light up the world right in front of you.. that will be the light for you... a tad expensive for no throw for me however.
> 
> Even if you light a thousand candles... I understand that all that light will still light up a distant spot more than one candle.... but my question is "which one will light up a white pie plate at 300 yards the most?
> 
> Based on the answer I got, the 12 LED P7 Kong is not what I'm looking for.
> 
> I don't want to discourage anyone else who may want it.. just make sure you know what your getting. Especially for what its going to cost.
> He compares it to HID's that cost a ton for that many lumens, but its comparing an apple with an orange.
> 
> Each of those 12 LED's have a very tiny reflector.
> 
> As you know "tiny reflectors" are only so efficient to transmit light.
> 
> Take the same single LED that has a tiny reflector and give it a 3 inch reflector or larger and the throw and even total lumen output goes crazy!
> The M1X and others are a good example.
> 
> If we could get 12 LED's in one housing that all had 3 inch reflectors.. guess how big the final reflector would be?
> 
> IMO, the 3500 lumen HID will outthrow the 8400 lumen Kong 12 LED for distance big time!.... Oracle is far cheaper than the Kong will be.
> 
> I"m basing that on my experience because i have the 9000+ lumen HID barnburner 80+Watt HID.
> 
> Having all those lumens going one basic direction is devastating, but being scattered in multidirections from many tiny reflectors has a different effect.


 
+1, I to love throw compared to flood, flood is good for indoor, EDC, general use. But when you have real power it’s all about the throw “at least for me” The Oracle is similar in that it is extremely powerful but compared to my cardboard box light which doesn’t even produce 1/3 as much power it can still be more impressive then the Oracle because it easily out throws it. Similar it the mass out put of the Barnburner, I have seen Lasercrazy’s Barnburner in person and while it puts out a good deal more power then my Modded Bigbeam, but they are equally impressive when both are being pointed into down a field because both can throw the same distance. 
:thumbsup:


----------



## windstrings

Yes, its interesting how two different light that are miles apart in throw can look pretty much equal up close against your living room wall or even your backyard fence.

But shoot at something 300+ yards and the story changes dramatically.

I suppose its similar to the apparent damage from a pistol bullet to an apple up close verses a deer rifle.. pretty much the same.. but at 250+ yards.. quite different!

Flood has historically been the job for lanterns... maybe even one with a reflector to concentrate one direction.

The oracle is one of the few lights with an adjustable reflector to get the best of both worlds.

Although I"m irritated at the self discharge issue I had with the battery, the do like the light.

Most lights that have the machined look are LED's... its hard to find a "sledge of thor" light thats HID like the Oracle.

I personally like the silver.


----------



## Juggernaut

I brought my 35 watt Oracle to my local fireworks last night, and I finally found out what “to bright” really meant. In my house or walking around my property I can be as unnecessary and overkill as I want. If I want to use 3,000 lumens to look under my bed, or bring out the trash, that’s fine. Though at the fireworks last night there were tons of people and even holding the light straight at the ground with my arm extended straight down only the very end of the light in my hands giving about a foot and a half between the bezel and the ground it, it’s glare even off of grass and dirt was far to intense not to blind those around me. I could shine it off the edge of the river, but even then the side spill was still hitting some people, and not wanting to **** off any of the local drunk hillbills around me:scowl: I stopped using it. Even when going for a walk my Wolf eyes M90 with LF Eo-13 lamp was to bright not to bother people, so I ended up just using my proton pro. 
 
Though on the walk there “pitch black road with no one really on it” The light made a great street lighter:thumbsup:. Like Windstrings I to love the heft of all the milled aluminum, a rarity in HIDs. Through after I went home I must of spent 25 minuets trying to adjust the spot and for the life of me I can not figure out how to do it right. The reflector is so heavily orange pealed that figuring out what is the tightest spot seems impossible. I know Turing all the way to one side makes the most flood and turning it all the way to the other side “seems” like it’s got a tighter beam, but either all the way to “tight beam” shows sort of a smaller inner beam, a little bit back kind of looks like there is no inner beam but the main beam is more intense and then if I move the light ever so slightly I can swear all of it was just an illusion:duh2:! Just to come to that conclusion it took many, many, Many, tries, and when I was finished what I guessed was that none of it mattered because in all positions the light lit up the trees 375 feet way from me, the exact same! Perhaps my light’s bulb is set up so it can’t be focused because between both extremes I see no difference in max throw:shrug:, and I know throw. It’s not that big of a deal, but either I have a defect model, or the very heavy orange peal makes the adjustability useless?


----------



## Patriot

Hey Jugg, it's about time you finally got yourself an HID light! :laughing:

Seriously though, congrats on the new light. I know that you're someone who will appreciate it. I also read your review at AAC which was a nice write up. 

Regarding the beam adjustability, I've noticed a similar issue with my K3500 in that it's not easy to see which focus point is best. Either I get one large hot spot with hardly any corona or I go to full wide and get a large corona and little, tiny, hot spot. I eventually settled on the latter setting since the large corona was nice for walking plus it was closest to the beam shape that my Polarions threw and I figure they know how to set-up a beam. My reflector is probably far less textured than yours so I suspect the effect is more pronounced on your Oracle.


----------



## windstrings

Juggernaut said:


> I could shine it off the edge of the river, but even then the side spill was still hitting some people, and not wanting to **** off any of the local drunk hillbills around me:scowl: I stopped using it.



Most adjustable lights I ran across do best all the way in "for tight" and then backed off about an 1/8 of a turn. I can't remember what I liked for the Oracle.
But your right, its hard to use around many people because its a true flashlight rather than a spotlight... even on the lower 28W mode, it still kills.

There are more focused ones out there, but unless you go with shortarc or some of the very tight beams, "blitz" is another..... all these hid lights are hard to use around crowds. Even my BB is pretty tight, but just one accidental blast into someones eyes will render then temporarily blind.. even from a couple of hundred yards away.

I believe BVH is working on a Blitz that will have promise for a very tight beam.

But as I mentioned, the oracle is a wallbanger "or should I say burner" of a flashlight!


----------



## LOUSYGREATWALLGM

Hi guys, can anybody help me understand what are the advantages/disadvantages of PH50 vs Oracle 35W HID?
ie. Do the PH50 throws farther with better spill too? Thanks!


----------



## Juggernaut

LOUSYGREATWALLGM said:


> Hi guys, can anybody help me understand what are the advantages/disadvantages of PH50 vs Oracle 35W HID?
> ie. Do the PH50 throws farther with better spill too? Thanks!


 
The PH50 is a much better light in all areas compared to the Oracle 35 watt, it’s as simple as that. You’ll get more flood power, way more throw, and everything in between including more reliability, waterproof ness, more or less Everything is better:twothumbs. There is simply one difference…….The PH50 isn’t in production anymore and if you wanted to snag one it would cost you $2,500+ vs. $219 for the Oracle with CPF discount! It’s like comparing a Bugatti Veyron with a Corvette ZR1. Only a lucky few have such an amazing car as the Veyron, but chances are you’ll never see one in real life anyways and if given the choice to have a ZR1 your still talking about a 205 mph top speed and 638 hp, it’s still much faster then most other cars:thumbsup:.


----------



## LOUSYGREATWALLGM

Thanks but dont have to bother answering my question about PH50 
I've just realized that it's $2,395. WOW! Never ever thought that there will have a flashlight worth that much . I'm left with one option TK40 :nana:


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## LOUSYGREATWALLGM

My bad :mecry: I'm just looking for a cool flashlight to buy again but not that much  though I already own the 35Watter HID


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## Juggernaut

LOUSYGREATWALLGM said:


> though I already own the 35Watter HID


 
What trpe of 35 watt HID?


----------



## LOUSYGREATWALLGM

Oracle 35W HID. Btw, I'm just wondering what really caused the PH50 to be that much? Is there any other product that can perform similar with the PH50/Night Reaper except the waterproof feature?


----------



## Juggernaut

LOUSYGREATWALLGM said:


> Oracle 35W HID. Btw, I'm just wondering what really caused the PH50 to be that much? Is there any other product that can perform similar with the PH50/Night Reaper except the waterproof feature?


 
Ummm, not really. If I had the money I would buy one of Electrolumen’s new Kong 12 lights over a PH50 with 8,600+ lumens vs. 5,000 but that light is all flood, I just like the feel of his lights though it cost $1,500. Way out of my league but $1,000 cheaper then the PH50. I mean on paper you can match performance of the PH50 but in real life it’s a different story. My Bigbeam Powerhouse modded light produces about as much lumens +/- as the PH50, out throws it, and runs longer. But in reality it’s far inferior to it because it weighs about 8 times more, isn’t water proof “though rain” and it is really awkward to use often:sigh:. So, no there is no light that really can match the PH50, like I said you can build a light with the same “output” performance or more, but that’s not the idea behind the PH50, who’s purpose is having that power and ruggedness / ease of use:thumbsup:.


----------



## Patriot

LOUSYGREATWALLGM said:


> Oracle 35W HID. Btw, I'm just wondering what really caused the PH50 to be that much? Is there any other product that can perform similar with the PH50/Night Reaper except the waterproof feature?





Probably the light that comes closest as far as using quality components would be the Xeray50W.

It's larger, boxy, has a plastic non-waterproof body, but it is 50W, throws as far, uses a li-ion battery and so on.

http://xevision.com/hid_searchlights.html

The new L50 should be a performer too.

http://www.cpfmarketplace.com/mp/showthread.php?t=196949


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## LOUSYGREATWALLGM

Thanks Pat I have checked that too but I prefer the compact/handy ones.
WoW! Just checked the Kong-12 and it seems (on paper, like Jug said) superb! How's the comparison on Kong-12 and Oracle 35W (throws vs throws and flood vs flood) ? I saw some of Kong-12's beam shot and I'm not very impressed how the 8600 lumens illuminated the area 
I need help from the experts here lovecpf
http://elektrolumens.com/Kong/Kong-12-Beamshot1.JPG
http://elektrolumens.com/Kong/Kong-12-Beamshot.2.JPG
http://elektrolumens.com/Kong/Kong-12-Beamshot3.JPG


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## Juggernaut

Wayne may be one of the best light builders around, but take his beam shots with a grain of salt “or pound” he does them because people ask, but he admits himself that they don’t come out great. Basically the Kong 12 is 12x of his EDC-P7s all crammed into a single light, 12 x the dies, batteries, and reflectors. Those beam shots look like what my EDC-P7 can do in real life. 

Second while Wayne’s lights aren’t super water tight, but they should be fine in the rain like the Oracle:thumbsup:. Now unlike most HIDs you really can’t compare any multi LED lights with them because HID put most of their Lumens into throw while multi LEDs put that power into flood. However the Oracle is very flood orientated so it’s a descent comparison. While the Kong 12 is all flood there is simply so much power that it will still throw “not like a HID” but like a normal flashlight. Now for a comparison for throw look at this: The EDC-P7 was tasted at 7,000 Lux “not a huge amount but more then the Taskforce which throws well. You must understand if you hold a taskforce in your hand and point it at a distant target you’ll say “wow, this thing throws!^ Unless your like Patriot and own a DEFT, then you’ll say “is this thing even on?” ” that’s because of it’s rather thin visible beam, while the EDC-P7’s beam is very hard to see becuase it is so broad it doesn’t look like it goes anywhere but side by side the EDC-P7 can reach stuff further “tested”. Now the Kong 12 uses: 12 similar reflectors with a bit more texture so lets say each is about 5,000 lux, well all together that’s 60,000. That’s as more then most of those high end LED throwers like the Jet beam Raptor “less then 14,000 Lux“. Patriot is going to have to chime in here because that seems a bit high because that would mean you would have all flood and light everything up a 300 yards!! Seem odd:thinking:. So through mass output the Kong 12 will out throw / match the Oracle 35 watt “with nearly 3 times flood power” Though 60,000 Lux isn’t even close to what some HIDs can do. “*Hey Patriot* what is the Lux from the PH50? I thought I read somewhere that the DEFT had like _186,000_ or something, and the PH50 can out throw it.


----------



## LOUSYGREATWALLGM

Juggernaut said:


> Now the Kong 12 uses: 12 similar reflectors with a bit more texture so lets say each is about 5,000 lux, well all together that’s 60,000. That’s as more then most of those high end LED throwers like the Jet beam Raptor “less then 14,000 Lux“. Patriot is going to have to chime in here because that seems a bit high because that would mean you would have all flood and light everything up a 300 yards!! Seem odd:thinking:. So through mass output the Kong 12 will out throw / match the Oracle 35 watt “with nearly 3 times flood power” Though 60,000 Lux isn’t even close to what some HIDs can do


 Hmmm... This sounds very cOoOoooll!!:devil: Out throwing or even matching the Oracle 35W is very impressive plus more flood. lovecpf Thanks! Thanks! I'll buy one then 
Never thought a LED flashlight can out throw the 35W 3500 lumen HID flashlight. Whew!


----------



## Juggernaut

LOUSYGREATWALLGM said:


> Hmmm... This sounds very cOoOoooll!!:devil: Out throwing or even matching the Oracle 35W is very impressive plus more flood. lovecpf Thanks! Thanks! I'll buy one then
> Never thought a LED flashlight can out throw the 35W 3500 lumen HID flashlight. Whew!


 
Seriously, you going to get one! Oh wow, have fun. If for some reason you buy one and get it and it’s a real disappointment in throw don’t blame me. Wayne him self says this light will throw 300 yards and I would think it could too, but if it doesn’t for $1,500 I’m just warning you it’s a possibility. However what you could really do with it is the “old ceiling bounce flash around a friend trick” and they’ll think a bomb went off:devil:, the instant on / off and on again capability is the number one reason this light is awesome:twothumbs.


----------



## Patriot

Juggernaut said:


> You must understand if you hold a taskforce in your hand and point it at a distant target you’ll say “wow, this thing throws!^ Unless your like Patriot and own a DEFT, then you’ll say “is this thing even on?” ” that’s because of it’s rather thin visible beam, while the EDC-P7’s beam is very hard to see becuase it is so broad it doesn’t look like it goes anywhere but side by side the EDC-P7 can reach stuff further “tested”. Now the Kong 12 uses: 12 similar reflectors with a bit more texture so lets say each is about 5,000 lux, well all together that’s 60,000. That’s as more then most of those high end LED throwers like the Jet beam Raptor “less then 14,000 Lux“. Patriot is going to have to chime in here because that seems a bit high because that would mean you would have all flood and light everything up a 300 yards!! Seem odd:thinking:. So through mass output the Kong 12 will out throw / match the Oracle 35 watt “with nearly 3 times flood power” Though 60,000 Lux isn’t even close to what some HIDs can do. “*Hey Patriot* what is the Lux from the PH50? I thought I read somewhere that the DEFT had like _186,000_ or something, and the PH50 can out throw it.






Ya know, I don't think the PH50 has ever been measured. Once I was trying to take readings of it inside the house and it just overloaded the light meter. Some day I'll take it to the park and do a real 100m test and use my spotting scope to see the meter. 


With regards to adding additional emitters as in the case of the Kong or other similar lights. I've found that you can't simply measure the lux from one emitter and then just use multiplication to figure out the lux for additional emitters. I don't understand the physics behind it but the results are not even close to what a lay person, like myself, would expect. The actual value ends up being 1/3 - 1/4 of the total that you'd expect. Instead of 60,000 it would be more like 20,000. This is easily demonstrated with a single P4 LED light vs. a 7 x P4 light like the WiseLED. The lux only doubles or comes in at just under triple. Perhaps that's the inverse-square law at work. 

Floody lights look unanimously unimpressive when compared to a more throwy light of the same output. This isn't to say they are lacking, it's just the way our eyes and brain work. Floody lights are great but for those considering one just know what to expect. As a crude rule of thumb for quad-die LED lights with small reflectors, you'll need to 3X-4X the output to match the throw (lux readings at distance) of HID. If you have a 1500 lumen HID with a smooth reflector, you'll need 4500 P7 lumens in order to put the same about light on a target at distance.


----------



## Patriot

> LOUSYGREATWALLGM
> Hi guys, can anybody help me understand what are the advantages/disadvantages of PH50 vs Oracle 35W HID?
> ie. Do the PH50 throws farther with better spill too? Thanks!






LOUSYGREATWALLGM said:


> Oracle 35W HID. Btw, I'm just wondering what really caused the PH50 to be that much? Is there any other product that can perform similar with the PH50/Night Reaper except the waterproof feature?







Here is a K3500 Microfire with smooth reflector compared to the PH50. The 35W lights with textured reflectors won't do quite as well though. The distance is about 330 yards. The exposure is pretty close to accurate.


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## CUL8R

Well, the UPS guy showed up with a package for me from AAC about 1PM today. I opened it and checked out my new silver Oracle 35W. First impression was very favorable. Very solid and seems well put together. It was bigger than I expected! I checked the battery and got no tail ring indicator when using the main switch, and the LEDs did not light when using the small LED activation switch. Guess the battery was shipped almost completely discharged. The instructions say it should take 4 hrs to charge it. That was spot on in my case. I did run into a possible problem. The AC charger is just a small sealed (not vented) plastic box. I plugged the battery in and made certain everything was working OK and went about other business. I checked back in after an hour and smelled hot, burning electronics. Sort of like the smell a capacitor makes when it cooks off, but not so pronounced. I checked the charger, and the plastic box was almost too hot to handle. It seemed to still be functioning, but was way too hot. I unplugged it and left it for 1/2 hr to cool down. Then I plugged it back in, and in about 10 minutes it was very hot again. Well it was under warranty, so I let it go two hours. No problem but the continuing high temperature and hot electronics smell. I let it cool down again after running two hours. After another 1/2hr downtime, I plugged it back in and kept an eye on it. It got just as hot. Then after almost an hour the LED starting changing color from red to orange to yellow to green. When it turned green, the charger box cooled back down to a very reasonable temperature. You almost don't need the LED. The temperture change in the charger was a pretty good indication the battery was charged and the charger was not working very hard anymore. 

Just wanted to give a heads up to other owners that may not have noticed how hot the charger gets. I would not use this near anything flammable, and would never use the charger when I couldn't keep an eye on it. The AC and DC cords did not get hot, just the charger box. I wonder if it would make sense to ventilate the charger box?

I got to try out the light some tonight, but a thorough check will have to wait another week until I can get up to camp with this light (and the Stanley) and get to use them in an area with a lot of open space with no people and lights around.

AAC was quite helpful and friendly and got me the light very quickly. Seem like good folks!

Jim


----------



## BVH

They obviously have issues with both their AC and DC chargers. The DC does not work at all and the AC flashes orange and green and outputs very little mah's. Can't remember the how little but I mentioned it earlier in this thread.


----------



## Juggernaut

CUL8R said:


> I checked back in after an hour and smelled hot, burning electronics. Sort of like the smell a capacitor makes when it cooks off, but not so pronounced. I checked the charger, and the plastic box was almost too hot to handle.


 
I completely forgot about this problem, the first time I charged my light I thought the charger was toast to because it got so hot! I came up with quick fix though, I can’t image the plastic body of the charger acts like much of a heat sink to the electronics inside but since it gets so hot so fast I figured it couldn’t hurt: I place a very small anvil upside down on top of the light “I mean small it’s like 5 inches long and ¼ of a pound” and I place the charger on top of my Brinks steel lock box. All the extra steel around the charger keeps it from ever getting warm no matter how long it charges:twothumbs.


----------



## LOUSYGREATWALLGM

Patriot said:


> Here is a K3500 Microfire with smooth reflector compared to the PH50. The 35W lights with textured reflectors won't do quite as well though. The distance is about 330 yards. The exposure is pretty close to accurate.


Hi Pat, by looking at the 1st pic I guess the 35W Oracle throws more than the K3500 so my doubt on PH50 price is still the same BUT THANKS for the nice shots. Well on your point of view is the throw one of the reasons which made it expensive?
Another question is if I'll spend $1,500 for a flashlight, which flashlight would be best to buy? Any suggestion Pros? :wave:


----------



## windstrings

LOUSYGREATWALLGM said:


> Hi Pat, by looking at the 1st pic I guess the 35W Oracle throws more than the K3500 so my doubt on PH50 price is still the same BUT THANKS for the nice shots. Well on your point of view is the throw one of the reasons which made it expensive?
> Another question is if I'll spend $1,500 for a flashlight, which flashlight would be best to buy? Any suggestion Pros? :wave:



My opinion...
Very high quality reflector allows same throw that normally takes for bigger ones to accomplish. Reflector is not adjustable, but allot of thought went into the perfect shape for max throw combined with usable spill down at the ground where its needed. Wasted spill that normally goes to the sky is used elsewhere where its needed.

Very elegant..... all parts top notch... waterproof..... came out when there was little competition but can hold price well because there are few that appeal to the elite crowds and governmental entities that have lots of money for things they want.
Most of its competition has budget in mind. 

But there are some awesome alternatives to consider.

You can always override thoughtful engineering that utilizes 35W to the max with sheer brute lumens of higher wattage or larger reflectors and skimp on quality in case, ballast etc thats still perfectly usable.

Do you want the Mercedes or the Mustang?


----------



## LOUSYGREATWALLGM

Mustang maybe . What I'm trying to find is a flashlight built (including ballast,bulb etc) like the Oracle HID flashlights but throw/flood twice or more than the Oracle 35W 3500 lumens HID flashlight


----------



## windstrings

LOUSYGREATWALLGM said:


> Mustang maybe . What I'm trying to find is a flashlight built (including ballast,bulb etc) like the Oracle HID flashlights but throw/flood twice or more than the Oracle 35W 3500 lumens HID flashlight



Have you "seen" the oracle?... its plenty bright...
but the way you worded that "throw/flood" seems to imply you want both at the same time?.....
There are only so many lumens to go around so how you divy them indicated where your power will be.
The only way I see to accomplish that is to get more wattage or focus the lumens you do have differently.
The L35 has the same output as the Oracle, is lighter, has a pilot light and can charge without removing the battery... its throw is better than the Oracle at the expense of less spill... it gets into more of a spotlight type of beam whereas the Oracle is spread out pretty good with a good beam for throw in the center of all that spill.... a bit less intense however than the L35.
The L50 thats being released will have an option to go to 50W power with a beam pattern I expect will be very similar to the existing Xerays which again is more of a spotlight type pattern with respectable spill as does the L35.

BVH is working on a light that will be about 100W HID.. "84W at the bulb" made from the Blitz housing. This light will have promise for serious throw with spill too.

There are other options... but you'll be very hard pressed to find the total lumens and quality the Oracle offers for the price presented. Remember, its reflector is adjustable too.... virtually a directional lantern when adjusted to full spread.


----------



## LOUSYGREATWALLGM

windstrings said:


> Have you "seen" the oracle?... its plenty bright...
> but the way you worded that "throw/flood" seems to imply you want both at the same time?.....


Yep! I got the 35W HID and I really like the throw and the good spill too. My personal preference is 70/30 throw - spill and the Oracle 35W is a perfect example. But imagine holding a flashlight that has twice the throw and spill, don't you think the people might say "the SUN is falling!"


----------



## windstrings

LOUSYGREATWALLGM said:


> Yep! I got the 35W HID and I really like the throw and the good spill too. My personal preference is 70/30 throw - spill and the Oracle 35W is a perfect example. But imagine holding a flashlight that has twice the throw and spill, don't you think the people might say "the SUN is falling!"




True, but as with everything.. there is a curve.
if you Butt up next to the curve, you get good performance and quality for the dollar, once you start up the curve for cutting edge, be prepared to pay for what is rare and hard to get.

These lights "HIDs" are falling in price like crazy.. bulbs included. Twice the lumens is available but not for double the price! :thumbsup:


----------



## LOUSYGREATWALLGM

windstrings said:


> True, but as with everything.. there is a curve.
> if you Butt up next to the curve, you get good performance and quality for the dollar, once you start up the curve for cutting edge, be prepared to pay for what is rare and hard to get.
> 
> These lights "HIDs" are falling in price like crazy.. bulbs included. Twice the lumens is available but not for double the price! :thumbsup:


Agreed! I'll try my best not to start then  But I'm very eager to see how Kong-12-27 throw and flood :naughty: hope someone can post some shots soon


----------



## windstrings

LOUSYGREATWALLGM said:


> Agreed! I'll try my best not to start then  But I'm very eager to see how Kong-12-27 throw and flood :naughty: hope someone can post some shots soon




Did you mean the Kong 12 P7?

The more spill and flood you have, the more backflash of light from nearby periphery objects which causes your pupils to constrict which kills your distant vision for any throw that may be hoped for.

As the reflector lessens in size, so does the total lumen output from that source LED. 
An LED with a 3" reflector will toss tons more light for throw than a reflector of 1/2" or less.
Without having a reflector with a total size of near 30inches "extra weight and cost" its only feasible to put 12 LED's under one housing by using small reflectors.

I think it will be like having a handful of 12 LED lights with small reflectors "no throw" all pointing the same direction.

It will be fun to bath everything nearby with 8600 lumens but not as much as you think will be going 300 yards and the light which does, you won't be able to see due to all the bright "close by" objects blinding you.

I would definitely wait for beam shots and feedback before spending that much money so you know what your getting.

An HID light like the Oracle has one single source of light "the HID bulb" with tremendous surface temp emitting so that its not too hard for a single reflector to capture most of its light to project it forward.

It becomes much harder "or impossible" to do the same tasks with the same efficiency from 12 different points of light without making a massive reflector housing 12 smaller reflectors of say 3 inches each.

Its technically possible, just not practical to consider in a flashlight or hand-held of any type.

The Kong will be devastating for police work that wants to totally and instantly blind a closeup assailant and all their friends,... something the Oracle can't do due to warmup time of 20 - 30 seconds.


----------



## Patriot

LOUSYGREATWALLGM said:


> Hi Pat, by looking at the 1st pic I guess the 35W Oracle throws more than the K3500 so my doubt on PH50 price is still the same BUT THANKS for the nice shots. Well on your point of view is the throw one of the reasons which made it expensive?
> Another question is if I'll spend $1,500 for a flashlight, which flashlight would be best to buy? Any suggestion Pros? :wave:






No Sir, the K3500 is a 35W with a smooth reflector, thus it would throw better than the heavily textured Oracle 35W. 

The throw is only one aspect of why the light is expensive. Many things combine which make the price go up. If you take into consideration that the least expensive 35W dive light is about $800-$900 and doesn't have any of the Polarion's other qualities, it sort of gives a starting reference. The Polarion's electro-formed, reflector alone is about $300-$400 if you order it from the manufacturer. So, it's not any one part or any one quality, it's the sum of everything.

If you're looking for a $1500 light, I'd go with a Polarion X1 for a couple hundred more.


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## Patriot

windstrings said:


> As the reflector lessens in size, so does the total lumen output from that source LED.





As the reflector lessens in size, so does the *amount of throw*. Total lumen output remains the same. 

I know that's what you meant to say Windy, just didn't want to toss LOUSYGREAT for a loop.


----------



## windstrings

Patriot said:


> As the reflector lessens in size, so does the *amount of throw*. Total lumen output remains the same.
> 
> I know that's what you meant to say Windy, just didn't want to toss LOUSYGREAT for a loop.




Well I mean't that but I didn't!
There is always a limit.

My conclusions are often opinion without real education in the field.. but nevertheless, I try to explain and stimulate conversation.

I think we agree about "throw"

when you have a very bright LED and the reflector is very tiny, there is only so much light that efficiently gets reflected and the rest is burn't up in heat.

Notice how a simple 100W Halogen can light up the world with throw "and" spill when the reflector is 9 or 12 inches verses a 3 inch reflector!

Some of this is similar to radio frequency. You can transmit a full wave, verses a 1/2, 1/4, 5/8 etc.. the amount of distance you can send with a given amount of power is greater with the longer wave antenneas.
The longer the antennea, the easier to transmit or replicate the transmission of that given frequency thats measured at an exact distance in length.

As you know, the arc on a HID is quite a bit larger than the arc on a "short arc" hence the need for a much larger reflector to capture all the light the HID emits "longer arc" verses its cousin the short arc.... this is a little side issue from what I"m really talking about but it applies too.

A Quad die LED is harder to capture all the light and transmit forward with a given size reflector than the smaller single die LED. Even if there were not spaces which in turn causes shadows in between the dies on the quad die, it would still require a larger reflector to match the power consumed verses what lumens you got out the front.

If you took a tiny 1/2 inch reflector or even 1 inch and shaped it "exactly" like the larger 5 inch which gives great throw, it would still fall short if the source light was the same size.

Maybe I'm explaining this the wrong way.

This is one of the wonders of Polarion in that they made a very efficient reflector despite the small size.

I can go to Costco and spend less than 100 dollars and get tremendous throw because the reflector is so stinkin big!

If you want the brightest light you can find for a given amount of money.. go for the biggest reflector you can tolerate!

You say the total lumens is the same..... 
I think the source lumens is the same, but what actually makes it out the end and gets transmitted is not.

We've all heard what 100W amps will do for sound if they are garbage amps, verses high quality.. I see parallels with light too.

Making the light is the first step, transmitting it to the viewer is the second.

I suspect that a light with a given wattage would waste more energy in the form of heat when the reflector is smaller, even if weight was added to the smaller light to equal the mass of the bigger.

I know there are factors of size verses exposure to air for heat dispersion and all.

I may be incorrect in my theory, at any rate, I'm trying to explain the best way I can why many small lights don't equal one big one of the same wattage consumed.... at least, not for throw.

The 10 inch reflector of a big 100W light is always cooler than the 3 inch reflector of the same 100W type bulb light.
Is that because the bigger disperses heat to the air easier with more surface area?... I'm sure that is a factor, but I think to the lesser degree.


----------



## LOUSYGREATWALLGM

windstrings said:


> A Quad die LED is harder to capture all the light and transmit forward with a given size reflector than the smaller single die LED. Even if there were not spaces which in turn causes shadows in between the dies on the quad die, it would still require a larger reflector to match the power consumed verses what lumens you got out the front.


Nice!! So this explains why Jetbeam M1X rating was like this - max output: 450 lumens (torch lumen)/ 700 lumens (led lumen), right Windy?


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## Juggernaut

windstrings said:


> Well I mean't that but I didn't!
> There is always a limit.
> 
> My conclusions are often opinion without real education in the field.. but nevertheless, I try to explain and stimulate conversation.
> 
> I think we agree about "throw"
> 
> when you have a very bright LED and the reflector is very tiny, there is only so much light that efficiently gets reflected and the rest is burn't up in heat.
> 
> Notice how a simple 100W Halogen can light up the world with throw "and" spill when the reflector is 9 or 12 inches verses a 3 inch reflector!
> 
> Some of this is similar to radio frequency. You can transmit a full wave, verses a 1/2, 1/4, 5/8 etc.. the amount of distance you can send with a given amount of power is greater with the longer wave antenneas.
> The longer the antennea, the easier to transmit or replicate the transmission of that given frequency thats measured at an exact distance in length.
> 
> As you know, the arc on a HID is quite a bit larger than the arc on a "short arc" hence the need for a much larger reflector to capture all the light the HID emits "longer arc" verses its cousin the short arc.... this is a little side issue from what I"m really talking about but it applies too.
> 
> A Quad die LED is harder to capture all the light and transmit forward with a given size reflector than the smaller single die LED. Even if there were not spaces which in turn causes shadows in between the dies on the quad die, it would still require a larger reflector to match the power consumed verses what lumens you got out the front.
> 
> If you took a tiny 1/2 inch reflector or even 1 inch and shaped it "exactly" like the larger 5 inch which gives great throw, it would still fall short if the source light was the same size.
> 
> Maybe I'm explaining this the wrong way.
> 
> This is one of the wonders of Polarion in that they made a very efficient reflector despite the small size.
> 
> I can go to Costco and spend less than 100 dollars and get tremendous throw because the reflector is so stinkin big!
> 
> If you want the brightest light you can find for a given amount of money.. go for the biggest reflector you can tolerate!
> 
> You say the total lumens is the same.....
> I think the source lumens is the same, but what actually makes it out the end and gets transmitted is not.
> 
> We've all heard what 100W amps will do for sound if they are garbage amps, verses high quality.. I see parallels with light too.
> 
> Making the light is the first step, transmitting it to the viewer is the second.
> 
> I suspect that a light with a given wattage would waste more energy in the form of heat when the reflector is smaller, even if weight was added to the smaller light to equal the mass of the bigger.
> 
> I know there are factors of size verses exposure to air for heat dispersion and all.
> 
> I may be incorrect in my theory, at any rate, I'm trying to explain the best way I can why many small lights don't equal one big one of the same wattage consumed.... at least, not for throw.
> 
> The 10 inch reflector of a big 100W light is always cooler than the 3 inch reflector of the same 100W type bulb light.
> Is that because the bigger disperses heat to the air easier with more surface area?... I'm sure that is a factor, but I think to the lesser degree.


 
Um, sorry but I’m pretty sure that’s not the case “defiantly not with LEDs” the light has to go somewhere and unless it is absorbed by the lens or not reflected by the 95% reflectiveness of the surface on the reflector. It leaves the light. Why one light throws better then another “minus reflector loss, lens loss, reflector shape, and filament / die design” Is the ratio of the die / filament to the reflector size. A R2 LED will throw further “all else being equal” with a larger reflector then in a smaller one is because the LED is always the same size but it’s ratio in a smaller reflector shrinks, thus giving it less surface area to bounce light straight out “instead of at greater angles, thus creating a larger hot spot“. This is evident in all of my Par bulbs: all of the reflectors are the same and the larger the filament = the larger the hot spot. While say a ratio “made up” of a 30 watt filament in a Par 36 reflector will have the same size hotspot as a 45 watt filament in a larger Par46 bulb = because the ratio of size of filament vs. size of reflector stays the same. This is why high wattage bulbs in 6P /9P sunlight drop ins and high wattage Maglite hotwire builds always produce very large hotspot, it’s because as the filament gets larger, the ratio decreases vs. the original reflector size. That’s why FM offers those throw master heads, in order to get some of that throw back with the new bulbs. Example a Maglite with a 2.4 watt halogen bulb vs. a Maglite with a 250 watt bulb, the later will have a huge beam vs. the 2.4 watt beam that is extremely pencil thin.


----------



## Juggernaut

LOUSYGREATWALLGM said:


> Nice!! So this explains why Jetbeam M1X rating was like this - max output: 450 lumens (torch lumen)/ 700 lumens (led lumen), right Windy?


Oh and not really, almost no P7 / MCE LED lights have an emitter lumens of anywhere close to 700 lumens, they just over exaggerate their output. If it’s 520 emitter lumens then it could be around 450 out the front “that was guess work, not sure if it’s 520”. Oh and as far as this reflector output stuff I don’t think the Mod will care because it’s all in the purpose of education. But as far as finding you other good light in you price rang you might want to start a new thread, because I have other ideas but I don’t want this thread anymore off topic.


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## Patriot

> windstrings;3008877]Well I mean't that but I didn't!
> There is always a limit.
> 
> My conclusions are often opinion without real education in the field.. but nevertheless, I try to explain and stimulate conversation.
> 
> I think we agree about "throw"
> 
> when you have a very bright LED and the reflector is very tiny, there is only so much light that efficiently gets reflected and the rest is burn't up in heat.
> 
> Notice how a simple 100W Halogen can light up the world with throw "and" spill when the reflector is 9 or 12 inches verses a 3 inch reflector!




It's always a bit more difficult to get on the same page when we are mixing the discussion with both LED and incan because there are differences with regards to the proportions but the principles still work the same. The principle is that a reflector can only take away from *overall lumen output*, and a lens can only take away from *overall lumen output.


*When you take the lens and reflector away from a H4 spotlight bulb and in effect allow it to light a room in nearly the same way a standing conventional room lamp would, you'd essentially be getting the maximum amount of light possible from the filament onto the rooms surfaces, minus the loss of the glass envelope of the bulb itself. 

When you add the reflector back into the mix, a portion of the light leaving the bulb no longer has a direct path to the room surfaces and is instead being bounced off of the reflector first and then into the room. Every time the light has to reflect off of a surface, including a reflector, a certain amount of light is lost due to surface absorption. For a typical rhodium coated reflector the efficiency is somewhere in the neighborhood of 87%. Therefore a percentage of the light that the filament is producing is subject to a 13% reduction when it's redirected by the reflector. If you place a thermal or borofloat type lens into the mix there is about another 8% loss due to lens absorption.

The roll of the reflector in a LED light is a bit different in that the LED doesn't rely on the reflector nearly as much. Whereas a filament is emitting light omnidirectionally, most of the LED's light is projected straight forward in a much smaller angle. An incan bulb set to a typical depth will be depending on the reflector far more to redirect light than the LED. 

Let's just focus on the LED for a moment since it's inherently less complicated. I just took a Lumapower MRV Q5 and did a ceiling bounce test. Actually it was a floor then to ceiling, effectively creating a baffle effect. The assembled light with reflector measured *18.3* lux. After that I removed the lens and it measured *20.2* lux. Finally, I unsrewed the head of the light so that it was nothing but a battery pack with bare emitter on top and it measured *21.1* lux. As you can see, the reflector and lens serve only to reduce output.







> Some of this is similar to radio frequency. You can transmit a full wave, verses a 1/2, 1/4, 5/8 etc.. the amount of distance you can send with a given amount of power is greater with the longer wave antennas.
> The longer the antennae, the easier to transmit or replicate the transmission of that given frequency that's measured at an exact distance in length.


Since I know next to nothing about the science of radio waves, communications and antennas. I don't know if this is a good analogy or not. It seems to me that it's relating to a light's throw since the power in each case remains to same. That is to say the transmitting power, measured by wattage is the same whether the antenna is long or short. Likewise the output power of the LED is the same whether you lower a reflector around it or not. 






> As you know, the arc on a HID is quite a bit larger than the arc on a "short arc" hence the need for a much larger reflector to capture all the light the HID emits "longer arc" verses its cousin the short arc.... this is a little side issue from what I"m really talking about but it applies too.


I kind of know what you're saying here but I'm not sure if I see the parallel with regards to the notion that a reflector increased overall output. As we've demonstrated the reflector only serves to reduce overall output while redirecting light. Also, instead of saying "capture" I'd probably say reflect, redirect or focus. Regarding the exact scenario that you gave above the short arc light throw farther because of the fact that at any single point its surface brightness is much higher than that of the long arc, regardless of the arc's length. In other words (and this is hypothetical since it's not technologically possible) if you took a maxabeam reflector and induced an long arc but somehow managed to retain its original "short-arc" surface brightness across its entire length, the light would retain it's original candella rating at the hot spot while the amount of corona and spill increased by a mega factor. Since it's not possible to retain short-arc surface brightness over long-arc distances, this is only a sweet dream. :mecry:




> A Quad die LED is harder to capture all the light and transmit forward with a given size reflector than the smaller single die LED. Even if there were not spaces which in turn causes shadows in between the dies on the quad die, it would still require a larger reflector to match the power consumed verses what lumens you got out the front.
> 
> If you took a tiny 1/2 inch reflector or even 1 inch and shaped it "exactly" like the larger 5 inch which gives great throw, it would still fall short if the source light was the same size.


Sorry Windy for the way I'm physically breaking up your paragraphs in order to quote it. I suppose it's just easier for me to touch on everything point by point. Thanks for your patience though my friend.  I think what we're talking about here is the generic description of throw with the caveat that we understand that there is no "power consumed" Infrared heat is a complete side topic to visible light. Since LED are nearly 100% efficent at converting energy to light, vs only 5% for incan, it's not a factor today for this discussion. Light meters only measure visable light and since lumens are a unit of visable light that's all we're concerned with at this time. 






> Maybe I'm explaining this the wrong way.
> 
> This is one of the wonders of Polarion in that they made a very efficient reflector despite the small size.
> 
> I can go to Costco and spend less than 100 dollars and get tremendous throw because the reflector is so stinkin big!
> 
> If you want the brightest light you can find for a given amount of money.. go for the biggest reflector you can tolerate!
> 
> You say the total lumens is the same.....
> I think the source lumens is the same, but what actually makes it out the end and gets transmitted is not.


Again, we're talking about throw once more which means that putting more light on target depends on what the target is. If your target is the entire surface area of a bath room you don't want the biggest reflector you can find, you instead want no reflector, since in that case there is no light loss. If you want to illuminate an area of 60 minutes or one degree...then you'll want to use the largest reflector available to you. In this case you're sacrificing some overall light loss due to reflector absorption but in exchange your redirecting or focusing "post loss" light to a single point. Yes, this may sound trivial since we all know instinctively that this is how it works. The point is that reflectors don't increase overall output, they only redirect output while loosing light through absorption in the process. 






> We've all heard what 100W amps will do for sound if they are garbage amps, verses high quality.. I see parallels with light too.
> 
> Making the light is the first step, transmitting it to the viewer is the second.
> 
> I suspect that a light with a given wattage would waste more energy in the form of heat when the reflector is smaller, even if weight was added to the smaller light to equal the mass of the bigger.
> I know there are factors of size verses exposure to air for heat dispersion and all.
> 
> I may be incorrect in my theory, at any rate, I'm trying to explain the best way I can why many small lights don't equal one big one of the same wattage consumed.... at least, not for throw.
> 
> The 10 inch reflector of a big 100W light is always cooler than the 3 inch reflector of the same 100W type bulb light.
> Is that because the bigger disperses heat to the air easier with more surface area?... I'm sure that is a factor, but I think to the lesser degree.


Now here, we're back to thermal and infrared properties of filaments, arcs and diodes vs. emitted visible light. These are separate topics. If we're in fact concerned with light output in this discussion these other things don't even come into play. You're of course correct about everything else you've stated about thermodynamics.


----------



## Patriot

LOUSYGREATWALLGM said:


> Nice!! So this explains why Jetbeam M1X rating was like this - max output: 450 lumens (torch lumen)/ 700 lumens (led lumen), right Windy?






Jugg, pretty much covered this already but just thought I'd mention some percentages of loss. With a UCL *type* lens a light will lose from 1%-4% of lumens out the front, depending on the number of anti-reflective layers, the quality of the coating, and the thickness of the glass. 

Depending on the size and shape of a *smooth* rhodium based reflector in conjunction with an LED source typical losses range from 5%-10% with deeper, smaller diameter reflectors incurring the most loss from absorption. If you take away the nice smooth reflector surface and change it to something else, the light absorption increases and less overall light exits out the front. On a LOP reflector figure a bit more loss, perhaps 2-3% and on a MOP reflector figure yet a bit more, perhaps 3-5%. Remember, we're talking about out the front loss and these estimates are only valid with regards to LEDs. My figures are based on what I've seen from my light meter. 

If we multiply the M1X's 450 out the front lumens by an estimated 15% loss due to the reflector and lens we get about 518 emitter lumens or almost exactly what Jugg estimated.


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## LOUSYGREATWALLGM

Very well said PROs!!! All the information you gave really helped me understand the right principle for the flashlight :welcome:
So glad I found you guys on this forum :twothumbs


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## LOUSYGREATWALLGM

Patriot said:


> The roll of the reflector in a LED light is a bit different in that the LED doesn't rely on the reflector nearly as much. Whereas a filament is emitting light omnidirectionally, most of the LED's light is projected straight forward in a much smaller angle. An incan bulb set to a typical depth will be depending on the reflector far more to redirect light than the LED


Do you think it is possible the Elektrolumen's Kong 12 (with 20mm reflectors) to throw 300 yards and clearly see the subject with bare eyes?
Also Wayne suggested me to have the 27mm reflectors instead 20mm to gain more throw, but as you said earlier the LED is projecting straight forward, but do you think the 27mm will have more intense throw?


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## windstrings

Juggernaut said:


> Example a Maglite with a 2.4 watt halogen bulb vs. a Maglite with a 250 watt bulb, the later will have a huge beam vs. the 2.4 watt beam that is extremely pencil thin.



Don't know about those bulbs, but if the 2.4W has a smaller arc than the 250W, that would explain why a given size reflector captures all the light with the smaller one and throws it forward giving a thin directional beam verses the larger wattage bulb.


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## windstrings

LOUSYGREATWALLGM said:


> Do you think it is possible the Elektrolumen's Kong 12 (with 20mm reflectors) to throw 300 yards and clearly see the subject with bare eyes?
> Also Wayne suggested me to have the 27mm reflectors instead 20mm to gain more throw, but as you said earlier the LED is projecting straight forward, but do you think the 27mm will have more intense throw?



27mm reflectors would definitely have better throw but I would think the total size of the whole reflector "that houses all 12 LED's" would be much bigger too! He would have to use some of that extra space to curve the angle for throw.... using the exact same angle as the smaller 20mm may give a tad more lumens out the front but throw would be receptively the same I would think.
But since the source of the light is still the same size, the larger reflector should let less escape out the sides to the spill area.

I'm just throwing out my opinions and letting Patriot clean up the mess! 

300 yards isn't that far.. "only 3 football fields".. but yes you could see a target, but "how" good is the question?
With the massive spill from all the rest of that light would virtually blind you from seeing the distant target due to your pupils constricting to protect themselves.

The better you see, the more colors come back to life from the darkness and the more detail you can pick up.

8600 lumens is allot of lumens... the more you can get it to go forward instead of splash all over the place, the better light you will have IMO.. unless your making a lantern!


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## windstrings

Patriot said:


> The roll of the reflector in a LED light is a bit different in that the LED doesn't rely on the reflector nearly as much. Whereas a filament is emitting light omnidirectionally, most of the LED's light is projected straight forward in a much smaller angle. An incan bulb set to a typical depth will be depending on the reflector far more to redirect light than the LED.
> 
> Let's just focus on the LED for a moment since it's inherently less complicated. I just took a Lumapower MRV Q5 and did a ceiling bounce test. Actually it was a floor then to ceiling, effectively creating a baffle effect. The assembled light with reflector measured *18.3* lux. After that I removed the lens and it measured *20.2* lux. Finally, I unsrewed the head of the light so that it was nothing but a battery pack with bare emitter on top and it measured *21.1* lux. As you can see, the reflector and lens serve only to reduce output.



A typical bulb like the HID has it "pointing outward" and so emitting out the sides in an omnidirectional pattern being captured by the reflector and then bounced outward.
And LED creates a complexity in the fact that reflectors wouldn't catch much light if "any" unless angles very narrow for throw I would think.

Reason being, the LED is not emitting out the sides in an omnidirectional pattern like a bulb, but rather coming off a flat surface going outward.

I can see why most of those wide angle reflectors do little for the LED.

Usually you can look straight into the reflector with the light on very low or even off and if you can see the part of the LED "where the light is emitted from" in the reflector, then it should be helping.. if not, its doing nothing.

Getting back to radio waves.... look at a dish antennea.. its very similar to a typical bulb-reflector setup.
Look at an omnidirectional antennea "likes on your car for your radio".. that would be like a bulb pointing to the sky with no reflector.
Look at a horizonal antennea "on the flat side".. thats like a bulb turned horizontally.. most of the light goes forward and backward.

Bulbs are like antenneas...... just the frequency is much higher than what we think of normally for antenneas.


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## Patriot

LOUSYGREATWALLGM said:


> Do you think it is possible the Elektrolumen's Kong 12 (with 20mm reflectors) to throw 300 yards and clearly see the subject with bare eyes?
> Also Wayne suggested me to have the 27mm reflectors instead 20mm to gain more throw, but as you said earlier the LED is projecting straight forward, but do you think the 27mm will have more intense throw?




Windy already touched on this but to repeat it for myself he's saying that in order to fit 27mm reflectors vs 20mm reflectors you'd have to give up a few emitters in order that everything would still fit. If I have that premise correct, then I would really question whether or not lux would increase as suggested by Wayne. I would think lux would be the same or actually decrease slightly. The reason I say this is because essentially the front of the Kong 12 is dominated by reflectored surface area when you look at it from the front. Using fewer 27mm reflectors with fewer emitters is going to cause larger gaps between the assemblies and reduce the total reflectored surface while at the same time reducing overall output do the fewer emitters. The thing is, it's very quick and easy to check with a light meter for both peak lux and overall output. If Wayne has a meter he could probably test this for you.


----------



## Patriot

windstrings said:


> A typical bulb like the HID has it "pointing outward" and so emitting out the sides in an omnidirectional pattern being captured by the reflector and then bounced outward.
> And LED creates a complexity in the fact that reflectors wouldn't catch much light if "any" unless angles very narrow for throw I would think.
> 
> Reason being, the LED is not emitting out the sides in an omnidirectional pattern like a bulb, but rather coming off a flat surface going outward.
> 
> I can see why most of those wide angle reflectors do little for the LED.
> 
> Usually you can look straight into the reflector with the light on very low or even off and if you can see the part of the LED "where the light is emitted from" in the reflector, then it should be helping.. if not, its doing nothing.





I'm right with ya then on the HID brother. 

Over on the LED side....the reflector is still vitally important for throw and continues to accomplish a substantial task. If you have an LED light with a removable head, simply remove the head with the LED running and you'll immediately see how much the reflector is collimating the light. So it's not that it's really doing little to nothing, in fact it's doing a lot, just not as much with a filament or arc. 

Since the flat die of the LED in conjunction with the clear protective polymer dome emits light in nearly 180 degree arc, any reflector that you mate with it will have the effect of focusing down the beam to a cone of narrower angle. In other words, you'll have a tighter beam with a slight loss of overall light.

Thanks for the interesting chat my friend.


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## LOUSYGREATWALLGM

Patriot said:


> If Wayne has a meter he could probably test this for you.


Good one there! I'll try to ask him that when the Kong 12-27 is done. FYI: the 27mm will be 12's too but with 1" larger reflector.




windstrings said:


> 300 yards isn't that far.. "only 3 football fields".. but yes you could see a target, but "how" good is the question?
> With the massive spill from all the rest of that light would virtually blind you from seeing the distant target due to your pupils constricting to protect themselves.


On most instances what is the reason to illuminate beyond that distance? (just wondering):naughty:
Not enough time to run when the BEAR is just 300 yards away? :thinking:


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## Patriot

LOUSYGREATWALLGM said:


> Good one there! I'll try to ask him that when the Kong 12-27 is done. FYI: the 27mm will be 12's too but with 1" larger reflector.




Oh..ok. That being the case the 12-27 will without question throw farther. There's no comprise happening there other than size. It should be a great light.


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## LOUSYGREATWALLGM

Patriot said:


> Oh..ok. That being the case the 12-27 will without question throw farther. There's no comprise happening there other than size. It should be a great light.


Thanks! I've got another idea :thumbsup: what if I'll replace the 35W with 50W HID bulb on the Oracle including the ballast? Will it be great (same reflector to be used)? Or it will just burn the unit?


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## windstrings

LOUSYGREATWALLGM said:


> Thanks! I've got another idea :thumbsup: what if I'll replace the 35W with 50W HID bulb on the Oracle including the ballast? Will it be great (same reflector to be used)? Or it will just burn the unit?



Not sure what your asking.. you will need a 50W ballast to fire a 50W bulb. a 50W ballast will also fire a 35W bulb but will sacrific some bulb life.
But you "can't" fire a 50W bulb with a 35W ballast... so if you could find a 50W ballast and get it in, your basically modding the whole light.


----------



## windstrings

Patriot said:


> Windy already touched on this but to repeat it for myself he's saying that in order to fit 27mm reflectors vs 20mm reflectors you'd have to give up a few emitters in order that everything would still fit. If I have that premise correct, then I would really question whether or not lux would increase as suggested by Wayne.



I didn't even consider that he was talking about going to 27mm reflectors and leaving the main housing the same.
You would definitely lose brightness, throw, it all to drop in number as the larger reflectors would not gain near the output lost by dropping LED numbers.
You would however increase runtime on that same battery pack!

If the head of the flashlight is not going to be any bigger to accommodate "12" LED's, I wouldn't go for the bigger ones if you want max brightness.

Sorry, this thread is semi highjacked, but it all ties in together and makes for interesting reading!

For a couple of hundred bucks, you can't beat the Oracle if your looking for a final product with tons of lumens!

Jumping to 50W with the L50 will be noticeable, but will cost you!


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## LOUSYGREATWALLGM

windstrings said:


> Not sure what your asking.. you will need a 50W ballast to fire a 50W bulb. a 50W ballast will also fire a 35W bulb but will sacrific some bulb life.
> But you "can't" fire a 50W bulb with a 35W ballast... so if you could find a 50W ballast and get it in, your basically modding the whole light.


Yep! 50W bulb with 50W ballast. You're right it's like modding the whole light but my very concern is the reflector. Coz I'm not sure if the reflector is meant to use no more than 35W HID bulb (I thought you have you have to use a larger reflector on 50W bulb ) 
Sorry for the confusions


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## Juggernaut

LOUSYGREATWALLGM check your PM in box if you haven’t all ready:wave:.


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## Patriot

LOUSYGREATWALLGM said:


> Thanks! I've got another idea :thumbsup: what if I'll replace the 35W with 50W HID bulb on the Oracle including the ballast? Will it be great (same reflector to be used)? Or it will just burn the unit?




Even if there is a round 50W existing somewhere in the world that would fit inside the body of the Oracle, you'd be talking about some major modding. You'd likely have to machine out the body and plant transplant potted bulbs. Chances are that it can't even be physically done.

The same reflector could be used if it were possible.


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## windstrings

Unless you were in it for the fun, you'd be better off just buying the L50.

Of course going to Kroger and buying fish is "far" cheaper than buying the lures, gas, time and resources to catch them.. but thats the fun!

*The strengths* of the Oracle is that the final performance of lumens, runtime is good, its build of sturdiness and aluminum rather than plastic, options of focus, extra accessories included, Lithium Ion battery, pilot light on the battery.

*The weaknesses* are Limitations to throw if compared to a spotlight "its really a flashlight that has throw", you have to take the battery out to charge it, some have reported self battery drain under certain conditions, and if compared to other types of bulbs its not instant on. "unless you just turned it off in the last few seconds".

Its a killer light for the price offered and can't be beat by anything I can think of.
The brightness overwhelmingly makes up for any weaknesses.

It does have a "wow" factor every time you turn it on!

If you want more juice, you "will" pay!


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## LOUSYGREATWALLGM

Anybody tried using your 35W HID Oracle flashlight for 30minutes or more (non-stop operation)? Coz last night when our light went off I grab my light and started using it for around 30 minutes or more, while using it the lens broke into 3 parts :tired:.
I really didn't expect the lens to break that fast :scowl: Anyway is it just an ordinary lens?


----------



## Patriot

Sorry about your lens LG, this is the first case I've heard of with regards to the lens. Most HID lights use high temperature glass and should be able to run continuously without an problem. Most likely you had a faulty lens to begin with and it needed just the "right" trigger to crack it. Call up AAC and ask tell them what happened. I'm sure they'll arrange a replacement for you.


----------



## LOUSYGREATWALLGM

Hi Pat, what kind of light meter would you suggest me to get? :naughty:


----------



## Patriot

It depends on what you want to spend but they can be had for as little as $30, which will work just fine for informal flashlight measurements.

Try deal extreme.


----------



## LuxLuthor

Patriot said:


> With a UCL type lens a light will *loose *from 1%-4% of lumens out the front...



Did you mean *lose*, or perhaps you were distinguishing properties of a loosely fitting UCL lens?

Sorry, I couldn't resist. My perverted sense of humor always interferes with my left brain.

In all seriousness, there are many erudite points being made in this thread.

Couple other points about reflectors in general that I did not see mentioned are:

1) They all have a focal length. This comes into play when a light (typically incan or HID) source can be moved forward and back to work with the focal point. If I was designing a LED light to take advantage of a reflector, I would try to mount at least 3-4 on the sides of a lollipop shaped stalk (containing wires). At least this way, the multi-LED output could be aimed at sides of reflector and adjusted in the focal point. Obviously heatsinking is the biggest limitation. The aspheric & DEFT LED's give an example using a lens (& no reflector) as to the effect of using a focal point. If you want to get real fancy, you could make a magnetically driven rotating stalk at sufficient rpm's to minimize artifacts....but I digress.

2) The shape of a reflector can have a significant effect on light source performance. Look at FiveMega's 2" Deep, 2.5" Turbo to see how he was playing with the direction and distance that eminated light waves bounce around inside the reflector. Another idea using a more traditional base-mounted LED light source is to put a fish-eye reflector out in front of the LED. It would have to be sufficient distance and small diameter to minimize its' central output blocking, while directing output into the reflector.

3) There are a variety of reflector surfaces including silver, rhodium and levels of reflectance quality within categories. There is an old thread somewhere that discusses this in more detail....but I remember a brief mention by Ra in his Maxablaster thread.


----------



## LOUSYGREATWALLGM

Patriot said:


> It depends on what you want to spend but they can be had for as little as $30, which will work just fine for informal flashlight measurements.
> 
> Try deal extreme.


Have you tried to order and successfully got the item from Deal Extreme? I read some reviews from that site recently and found many negative buyer comments (ie. didn't receive the item, 30 days after payment date and still no items receive, etc.). In fact I was about to order the Fenix TK40 from that site then I saw those negative reviews . Is the TK40 originated in China?


----------



## Juggernaut

LOUSYGREATWALLGM said:


> Anybody tried using your 35W HID Oracle flashlight for 30minutes or more (non-stop operation)? Coz last night when our light went off I grab my light and started using it for around 30 minutes or more, while using it the lens broke into 3 parts :tired:.
> I really didn't expect the lens to break that fast :scowl: Anyway is it just an ordinary lens?


 
Were you using it at 28 or 35 watts:thinking:? I always steep down to 28 watts if I have the light on for more then 10 minuets, I’ve ran if for more then 30 minuets a few times and have had no problems.


----------



## Patriot

LOUSYGREATWALLGM said:


> Have you tried to order and successfully got the item from Deal Extreme? I read some reviews from that site recently and found many negative buyer comments (ie. didn't receive the item, 30 days after payment date and still no items receive, etc.). In fact I was about to order the Fenix TK40 from that site then I saw those negative reviews . Is the TK40 originated in China?






I've made several succussful orders from DX, but if you're uneasy about it, follow your feelings. Light meters under a $100 all work about the same so do a google search and see what looks good. The brand, "Meterman" is usually build well. 

Yes, Fenix is made in China. I would suggest using 4Sevens.com if you're going to get the TK40. CPF members get 8% off.


----------



## Patriot

LuxLuthor said:


> Did you mean *lose*, or perhaps you were distinguishing properties of a loosely fitting UCL lens?
> 
> Sorry, I couldn't resist. My perverted sense of humor always interferes with my left brain.
> 
> In all seriousness, there are many erudite points being made in this thread.
> 
> Couple other points about reflectors in general that I did not see mentioned are:
> 
> 1) They all have a focal length. This comes into play when a light (typically incan or HID) source can be moved forward and back to work with the focal point. If I was designing a LED light to take advantage of a reflector, I would try to mount at least 3-4 on the sides of a lollipop shaped stalk (containing wires). At least this way, the multi-LED output could be aimed at sides of reflector and adjusted in the focal point. Obviously heatsinking is the biggest limitation.






yes lose. I'm the king of spelling and grammar blunders.  I know that you're just picking on me.  Speaking of grammar, I can't remember the las time I saw "erudite" used in a sentence. I think I was in school still....lol.


Did you know that someone has already made a lollipop mod like you're speaking of? It was a post with an LuxIII on each side shining directly against the reflector. The host was a Surefire C2 or M2 with a turbo head. I have no idea where that old thread is though and I haven't really thought about it for 3-4 years.

Besides the problem with heat sinking it makes for a oddly shaped beam. The other problem I was pondering is that when the LED shines 100% of its light onto the reflector, all of it is subject to reflector absorption loss. 

Now I'm sitting here thinking of that lollipop arrangement. I wonder if I saw that over in Craig's LED museum? I'm off to check .............


----------



## PhantomPhoton

I have run my Oracle 35W at full power for the entire battery life without any apparent ill effects. I'd still like to see a smooth reflector for it.


----------



## LuxLuthor

I was thinking you would need at least 3 LED's on the lollipop. The way they were angled and type of reflector would be important. The other idea instead of having flat typical square LED's is to wrap component LED wires around a post so the output is more spherical. I have several other ideas of ways to experiement with LED's but my heart is not in that light source.


----------



## LOUSYGREATWALLGM

Juggernaut said:


> Were you using it at 28 or 35 watts:thinking:? I always steep down to 28 watts if I have the light on for more then 10 minuets, I’ve ran if for more then 30 minuets a few times and have had no problems.


Yep! I'm aware of that too. So I used it at 28W only. And it was my first full operation. :shakehead


PhantomPhoton said:


> I have run my Oracle 35W at full power for the entire battery life without any apparent ill effects. I'd still like to see a smooth reflector for it.


Thanks for the helpful info!


----------



## LOUSYGREATWALLGM

Hello Pros, I saw someone selling same battery pack but 35W/25W, will the 35W/28W Oracle HID flashlight work as 35W/25W without damaging the ballast/bulb? :naughty:


----------



## Patriot

LOUSYGREATWALLGM said:


> Hello Pros, I saw someone selling same battery pack but 35W/25W, will the 35W/28W Oracle HID flashlight work as 35W/25W without damaging the ballast/bulb? :naughty:




Since I don't know the specific battery you're describing I'm speaking generally, but yes the battery pack would be fine as long as the voltage remains the same as the original pack. 

A light like the Oracle designed to operate from a 11.1V (3 x li-ion cells) battery will work from any 11.1V battery regardless of the ballast's output wattage. Some other HID ballasts are designed to operate from 14.8V batteries (4 x li-ion cells) and thus always require packs of that same voltage range. Too much voltage will overdrive the ballast and too little voltage will not allow it to operate. 

In short, if the battery fits into the light, the contact points are the same, and the voltage is the same the light will turn on and operate properly. To recharge the light would also require the proper protection circuitry contained in the original battery.


----------



## LOUSYGREATWALLGM

Patriot said:


> Since I don't know the specific battery you're describing I'm speaking generally, but yes the battery pack would be fine as long as the voltage remains the same as the original pack.
> 
> A light like the Oracle designed to operate from a 11.1V (3 x li-ion cells) battery will work from any 11.1V battery regardless of the ballast's output wattage. Some other HID ballasts are designed to operate from 14.8V batteries (4 x li-ion cells) and thus always require packs of that same voltage range. Too much voltage will overdrive the ballast and too little voltage will not allow it to operate.
> 
> In short, if the battery fits into the light, the contact points are the same, and the voltage is the same the light will turn on and operate properly. To recharge the light would also require the proper protection circuitry contained in the original battery.


Thanks! Great to know that.
Do I get it right? Let us say I'll replace the 35W bulb with a 50W one, all I have to do is to get a different battery pack (same size & contact points) but with 50W output to have the newly installed bulb illuminate at 50W? :huh:


----------



## Patriot

LOUSYGREATWALLGM said:


> Thanks! Great to know that.
> Do I get it right? Let us say I'll replace the 35W bulb with a 50W one, all I have to do is to get a different battery pack (same size & contact points) but with 50W output to have the newly installed bulb illuminate at 50W? :huh:




No sir, that's not correct. 

You would also need different ballast appropriate for that bulb wattage. Running a 50W bulb together with a 35W ballast would only serve to terribly under drive it, resulting in very poor performance. Typially best results are had when bulbs are driven to spec or slightly overdriven if they can handle it, as in the case of high quality bulbs like GE, Phillips, and Osram.


The battery pack doesn't determine the output of the ballast. The ballast itself is the regulating factor to the bulb. Every ballast operates within a designed voltage range but the ballast regulates the voltage to supply a constant to the bulb. There are a few non-regulated ballasts out there but for the sake on conversation I'm talking about the overwhelming majority of ballasts.


----------



## LOUSYGREATWALLGM

Now I'll go back with my previous question and try to be more specific . The 35W Oracle is originally 35W/28W and I want to have it 35W/25W by using a different battery pack with same size/Volts/contact points etc. except for the wattage coz its 35W/*25W*. Will it work at 35W/*25W* with no additional stress to the bulb and ballast?


----------



## Patriot

LOUSYGREATWALLGM said:


> Now I'll go back with my previous question and try to be more specific . The 35W Oracle is originally 35W/28W and I want to have it 35W/25W by using a different battery pack with same size/Volts/contact points etc. except for the wattage coz its 35W/*25W*. Will it work at 35W/*25W* with no additional stress to the bulb and ballast?





Here goes my second try. First reply lost the the classic cpf "database error" message. 


I speculated a bit about exactly what you were asking originally because I wanted to save you the grief of a back and forth. In any case I believe I understand what you're asking now.

A seller is offering what they call a 25/35W battery for Oracle type lights. You're wondering if using this battery will give you 25W on the low setting instead of 35W.

Since I believe that all Oracles and the generic versions of it sold are 28/35W lights, I'm guessing that the seller has made a misprint by listing it as compatible for 25/35W lights. Whatever the case, the battery doesn't decide the voltage to the bulb, the ballast does. All the ballast requires of the battery is that it's of the correct voltage range. There is no such thing as a 25/35W or 28/35W batteries, only ballasts. If there is indeed a 25W low setting light, that would be a function of the ballast alone. The battery has nothing to do with the output to the bulb. 

Hope that helps. :sweat:


----------



## Patriot

LOUSYGREATWALLGM said:


> Hello Pros, I saw someone selling same battery pack but 35W/25W, will the 35W/28W Oracle HID flashlight work as 35W/25W without damaging the ballast/bulb? :naughty:




The only way for the Oracle to operate at 25W instead of 35W would be to replace the ballast with one set to 25W instead of 28W. Simply replacing the battery will do nothing to change the output values of your Oracle.


----------



## LOUSYGREATWALLGM

hmm.. I think I'm getting close :thumbsup: So the Oracle has 2 ballast, One for high and one for low?


----------



## Patriot

LOUSYGREATWALLGM said:


> hmm.. I think I'm getting close :thumbsup: So the Oracle has 2 ballast, One for high and one for low?




It has one ballast that is able to switch between two levels of output. It's called a 2 stage or dual output ballast. These levels are fixed (in the Oracle) to 2*8*W and 35W. To have an oracle run at 2*5*W and 35W that would require a new (2 stage) ballast designed to run at the "lower low" level, which to my knowledge isn't an option for that generic series of HID. This all means that you're stuck with fixed outputs of 2*8*W and 35W from your light.


----------



## LOUSYGREATWALLGM

Patriot said:


> It has one ballast that is able to switch between two levels of output. It's called a 2 stage or dual output ballast. These levels are fixed (in the Oracle) to 2*8*W and 35W. To have an oracle run at 2*5*W and 35W that would require a new (2 stage) ballast designed to run at the "lower low" level, which to my knowledge isn't an option for that generic series of HID. This all means that you're stuck with fixed outputs of 2*8*W and 35W from your light.


You are the BEST!! :twothumbs Crystal clear explanations! 
Btw, remember Mugrunty's Philips dl50 HID bulb on the other thread? Where do they plan to use the bulb? Because I want to have a more powerful "flashlight" than this Oracle 35W. Tried several days searching for one but all the higher power found are searchlights and spotlights :sigh: The PH50 beam is adjustable right? But can we adjust the throw (with some flood) like how the Oracle throw? I saw some PH50 outdoor shots but I felt it as 50/50 throw-flood and didn't feel like getting one even it do 5000+ lumens. If any of the PH 50/45/40 can set to 80% throw with 20% flood then I might get one :naughty:


----------



## Patriot

LOUSYGREATWALLGM said:


> You are the BEST!! :twothumbs Crystal clear explanations!
> Btw, remember Mugrunty's Philips dl50 HID bulb on the other thread? Where do they plan to use the bulb? Because I want to have a more powerful "flashlight" than this Oracle 35W. Tried several days searching for one but all the higher power found are searchlights and spotlights :sigh: The PH50 beam is adjustable right? But can we adjust the throw (with some flood) like how the Oracle throw? I saw some PH50 outdoor shots but I felt it as 50/50 throw-flood and didn't feel like getting one even it do 5000+ lumens. If any of the PH 50/45/40 can set to 80% throw with 20% flood then I might get one :naughty:






The Fat boy buyers are typically people who are using high powered ballasts from 50-90W for mods on spot lights. 

If you're looking for a more powerful light it's going to be a spot light type, meaning some form of light with a carry handle. I don't think you'd like the idea of an 18" long flashlight or something so fat that you couldn't get your hands around it. When you increase power, ballasts get larger and more battery capacity is needed. Just the laws of physics man. You can either buy a 50W light like the L50 or mod a spotlight to use a 50-55W ballast and bulb.

The PH50 doesn't have and adjustable beam. It's pre-focused at the factory for the ideal beam pattern. Speaking of focus, there's technically no such thing as "adjustable" focus. There is only one point at which the arc is "in focus" with the reflector. Moving the bulb in or out at that point only serves to de-focus the beam to varying degree. 

The problem with your percentage examples are that there is no way to measure what is "throw" and what is "flood"(corona + spill). What you're calling 50/50 for the Polarion might actually be 10/90 throw/flood since most of the PH50's light is not projected within the 3 degree collimated portion of the beam. It would require multiple calibrated light meters and readings taken at each degree of the beam to even begin to figured out that math equation. We never talk in terms of percent because we just don't have a clue about it and to measure it isn't realistic. 

*EDIT: To expound on the above point, HID beam characteristics are going to be determined by 5 main things:

Reflector size
Reflector shape
Wattage
Reflector texture
Reflector coatings 

Based on these starting points you can get a general idea as to how a light is going to perform combined with the manufacturers stated beam angle. Add to that direct beamshot comparisons between lights and that gives most people a pretty good idea of what to expect before they make a purchase. Therefore, discard the percentage thinking and draw your conclusions by this general formula instead. 
* 
Let me put it this way, if you purchased a PH40, L50 or Xevision50W, there's probably no lighting task that they wouldn't accomplish on a practical level. When we occasionally find it necessary to illuminate something brightly at extended ranges that's when the big reflectors have to come out.


----------



## windstrings

Do we even know what "wattage" the bulb is in the oracle?....

I guess I took for granted it was 35W.. but I don't think I read that anywhere and seems this is a proprietary setup as the bulb is mounted to the ballast.

If the bulb is 35W.... it would prob not be good to run on 28W mode too much as it would be underdriven.... if the bulb is rather a lower wattage then it would be ok.... which would mean its overdriven a bit at 35W and so slightly less bulb life when ran at that higher setting consistently.

Most decent bulbs apparently don't mind being overdriven a bit, but not underdriven.
Overdriving increases internal pressures more... some bulbs aren't good at taking these extra pressures.
28W and 35W is so close it may be a non issue.

I suppose this is the curse with any dual wattage HID setup.
Not so much a curse, but rather a symptom.

The beauty of the Fatboys are the thicker glass and ability to take abuse from higher pressures. That particular bulb cannot be harnessed to the Oracle as its designed for higher wattages.


----------



## LOUSYGREATWALLGM

Patriot said:


> If you're looking for a more powerful light it's going to be a spot light type, meaning some form of light with a carry handle. I don't think you'd like the idea of an 18" long flashlight or something so fat that you couldn't get your hands around it. When you increase power, ballasts get larger and more battery capacity is needed. Just the laws of physics man. You can either buy a 50W light like the L50 or mod a spotlight to use a 50-55W ballast and bulb.


Of course not! I wont like it if its 18" long :naughty: but if the physical built is similar with the PH50, it wont be a problem.


> The PH50 doesn't have and adjustable beam. It's pre-focused at the factory for the ideal beam pattern. Speaking of focus, there's technically no such thing as "adjustable" focus. There is only one point at which the arc is "in focus" with the reflector. Moving the bulb in or out at that point only serves to de-focus the beam to varying degree.


BY moving the bulb in or out will only affect the corona? But the spill will remain the same?
Do I understand it right, the spill is the light spreading?



> The problem with your percentage examples are that there is no way to measure what is "throw" and what is "flood"(corona + spill). What you're calling 50/50 for the Polarion might actually be 10/90 throw/flood since most of the PH50's light is not projected within the 3 degree collimated portion of the beam. It would require multiple calibrated light meters and readings taken at each degree of the beam to even begin to figured out that math equation. We never talk in terms of percent because we just don't have a clue about it and to measure it isn't realistic.


It's just an imaginary example coz that's the only way I could explain my preference for the light. 
I dont even know how many degrees do the Oracle have 



> Let me put it this way, if you purchased a PH40, L50 or Xevision50W, there's probably no lighting task that they wouldn't accomplish on a practical level. When we occasionally find it necessary to illuminate something brightly at extended ranges that's when the big reflectors have to come out.


Thanks! Thanks! Thanks! This is what I wanted to ask you guys several times but didn't have the chance  Maybe the light I'm trying to find doesn't exist yet. Thanks again!
Just one more question, if we compare the PH50 and Oracle 35W who can illuminate the subject farther?


----------



## windstrings

LOUSYGREATWALLGM said:


> Just one more question, if we compare the PH50 and Oracle 35W who can illuminate the subject farther?



I'm gonna say the PH50 hands down... its in a fixed more directional pattern than the oracle that has tons of spill even in the full focused mode.

But its not enough that it should be a buying decision unless the price was close... "which its not!"


----------



## LOUSYGREATWALLGM

windstrings said:


> I'm gonna say the PH50 hands down... its in a fixed more directional pattern than the oracle that has tons of spill even in the full focused mode.


Thanks! :thumbsup: Just as suspected  Wish PH50 has the ability to adjust the focus like Oracle do.
Do you know how much torch lumens on the Oracle 35W?


----------



## windstrings

There has been allot of discussion about that... there really is no need for adjustment with the PH50.

If you search the threads and study its beam.. they went into allot of thought in engineering the reflector.
It has the perfect balance of spill and throw with any extra spill that would have gone above into space, instead is in the beam.

Its hard to see unless you see a shot against a full backdrop of trees or a wall.. but the top is "chopped" off to some degree.
If you were to flip the light upside down the beam would be terrible, but thats unlikely the way the handle is fashioned.
But for that much money, you should get some special engineering!..

Back to the Oracle.. its hard to compare the two.
It sounds like your trying to figure a way to have the best of both worlds when those worlds are pretty far apart with exception to the wattage used.

Its fun to try and figure out a way to get the Oracle to perform as good or better than the PH50 and have all the options of the oracle with the ph50 too.
Its a hard match.. like trying to get a corolla to behave and run like a mercedes or have the mercedes have the gas mileage of the corolla.

Suffice to say, it comes down to money.
The oracle is a superb entry level HID with serious lumens and good options.
It only gets more expensive from there.

If you have more money to burn, the L35 is my choice.. not too much more and very light and an excellent beam, is small and has a pilot light. Next, the L50.
Keep in mind there are custom lights being made too that are worth considering.


----------



## LOUSYGREATWALLGM

windstrings said:


> There has been allot of discussion about that... there really is no need for adjustment with the PH50.


I was just wondering if the PH50 will do better if the adjustment is more on throw 



> Its fun to try and figure out a way to get the Oracle to perform as good or better than the PH50 and have all the options of the oracle with the ph50 too.


I want the other way round :wave: PH50 fixed adjustment like the Oracle at medium to full focused adjustment. So it can throw farther with the 5000+ lumens  But maybe I'm trying to have the cake and eat it too :tired: 



> If you have more money to burn, the L35 is my choice.. not too much more and very light and an excellent beam, is small and has a pilot light. Next, the L50.
> Keep in mind there are custom lights being made too that are worth considering.


You are right! That's the only option left for me:shakehead in fact I e-mailed Matt about the L50 few hours ago but no response yet :scowl: Hopefully I'll join the L50 group :devil:


----------



## LOUSYGREATWALLGM

windstrings said:


> Keep in mind there are custom lights being made too that are worth considering.


hmm.. great idea! Can you mention some reliable custom builders? :twothumbs


----------



## windstrings

LOUSYGREATWALLGM said:


> I was just wondering if the PH50 will do better if the adjustment is more on throw


Prob not allot, and the spill that is there is very usable. If you want pure throw, neither light has it. The PH50 is more than the Oracle by virtue of more wattage, better formed reflector and is fixed in a spot where more throw is not really appreciated since the hotspot is already notable.



LOUSYGREATWALLGM said:


> I want the other way round :wave: PH50 fixed adjustment like the Oracle at medium to full focused adjustment. So it can throw farther with the 5000+ lumens  But maybe I'm trying to have the cake and eat it too :tired:


I suspect the throw of the PH50 is more like the Oracle at full focus plus some.... remember the Oracle shares allot of its light with the spill area too!.. Even at full focus, the Oracle has more spill than the PH50 to the extreme wide areas. The reflector of the Oracle is orange peel first of all, second, its not a spotlight per se, but a flashlight with lots of lumens.


----------



## windstrings

LOUSYGREATWALLGM said:


> hmm.. great idea! Can you mention some reliable custom builders? :twothumbs


These guys are good in their own element.. each one has a different specialty and you'll have to study to see which you like.

BVH is also making a nice thrower.. but I don't know the specifics of price, but it sounds like a meanie!
Here are some heavy hitters.. one of which is the Blitz mod I speak of... those links should get you started.

Along with many other threads, this one may help answer many of your questions.

Lips has many projects underway.

You'll have to ask more questions on those threads so we don't highjack this one.

Sorry, if I opened up another big fat can of worms!


----------



## LOUSYGREATWALLGM

windstrings said:


> Prob not allot, and the spill that is there is very usable. If you want pure throw, neither light has it. The PH50 is more than the Oracle by virtue of more wattage, better formed reflector and is fixed in a spot where more throw is not really appreciated since the hotspot is already notable.


Thanks a lot!! :twothumbs Now I can picture out 100% how powerful is the PH50 than the Oracle 35W. This is exactly what I wanted to know about the PH50. Great info! :thumbsup: Now the PH50 seems to be 99% acceptable


----------



## Patriot

LOUSYGREATWALLGM said:


> Of course not! I wont like it if its 18" long :naughty: but if the physical built is similar with the PH50, it wont be a problem.



There is no other light of similar size, shape, to the Polarion. You stated that a few posts back that you didn't want something "spotlight-ish" (my own words) That's why I said the light you would need, to improve upon the Oracle would in fact be spotlighting out of sheer physics. Polarion has managed to make a spotlight with a handle and shape is differently from everything else available. Just one more way in which they're unique and why the cost more. 




> BY moving the bulb in or out will only affect the corona? But the spill will remain the same?
> Do I understand it right, the spill is the light spreading?




A conventional beam has three basic components, the hotspot, the collimated portion of light coming from the center of the beam, the corona, the round part of the beam that's much wider but clearly has a defined edge, and spill, the light you see directly at your feet which extends nearly from the light in a 180 degree circle. 

Moving the bulb in or out effects (defocuses) both the hot spot and corona. 






> It's just an imaginary example coz that's the only way I could explain my preference for the light.
> I dont even know how many degrees do the Oracle have




No problem, I just didn't want to keep going down that road since it's pointless to do so due to lack of uniformity. 100 people could have a 100 different oppinions based on nothing other that it's their best guess. 

I'm guessing the Oracle is between 10-15 degrees based on what other focusing lights that size do. 






> Thanks! Thanks! Thanks! This is what I wanted to ask you guys several times but didn't have the chance  Maybe the light I'm trying to find doesn't exist yet.




That's possible. I'm not sure what parameters you're looking for






> Just one more question, if we compare the PH50 and Oracle 35W who can illuminate the subject farther?




I thought I already posted a beamshot of the PH50 and K3500, just for you. Perhaps I'm mistaken though. The K3500 is a 35W that throws *better, greater, farther* than the Oracle, due to my smooth reflector. Many other things about the two lights are similar. I'll post the shots again.

K3500






PH50





K3500





PH50


----------



## LOUSYGREATWALLGM

Thanks for the zoomed in pics! Really shows the difference they throw.
I didn't know the K3500 has smooth reflector and I wasn't sure if it was really 330 yards away  (sorry for the doubt). But I can now say the PH50 has 99% of what I'm looking for superb perfomance 
I sincerely Thank You PROs for helping/educating me on the SUPPALIGHT world lovecpf
I'm off to find custom made light like PH50. :duh2: I dont mean the price :nana::wave:


----------



## windstrings

LOUSYGREATWALLGM said:


> I'm off to find custom made light like PH50. :duh2: I dont mean the price :nana::wave:



The L50 has a 5.25" reflector and should be very comparable to the PH50 in output and throw.. the PH50 is a bit smoother and uses its lumens wisely.

Look for threads where the Xeray 50 is compared to the PH50.

The custom made lights will all be pretty pricey too. There is allot of lights that perform well if you don't mind the large reflector.. consider the battery used too if you want rechargeable.

This is why the Oracle is such a bargain if cash is tough. 
I can't think of any other light that gives you a Lithium battery, with HID and all the features and accessories it has for so little... 

The Oracle is good "not cheap" but its not the best, thats why its reasonably priced.

I"ve never messed with the k3500, but it looks like the Oracle would have much more throw than the picture presented... but not near as spectacular as the PH50.

----------------


----------



## LOUSYGREATWALLGM

How secured are we from buying an item on WTS section? ie. the seller didn't ship the item, item arrived not as described on the ads, etc.


----------



## Patriot

LOUSYGREATWALLGM said:


> How secured are we from buying an item on WTS section? ie. the seller didn't ship the item, item arrived not as described on the ads, etc.




They're private transactions just like the newspaper classifieds. The difference is that you get to know the people here after a while. If a person has a few hundred posts and have been with CPF for over a year, they're likely here to stay. Less that 50 posts or a few months, use your best judgment. 

Also take a look at the Cheers N Jeers section. See who has a good reputation and see where there might be problems. 

http://www.cpfmarketplace.com/mp/forumdisplay.php?f=20


----------



## Patriot

windstrings said:


> I"ve never messed with the k3500, but it looks like the Oracle would have much more throw than the picture presented... but not near as spectacular as the PH50.





If anyone wants to send me and Oracle, I'll be happy to compare them with beamshots and light meter readings. Remember that tower is 1000' away.


----------



## LOUSYGREATWALLGM

That's so scary to know :scowl: not going to risk my $1800 with his 37 posts. Thanks!


----------



## LOUSYGREATWALLGM

windstrings said:


> If you have more money to burn, the L35 is my choice.. not too much more and very light and an excellent beam, is small and has a pilot light. Next, the L50.


L50 = Titanium L50 Locator 30W/50W HID search light/ spotlight?
Or there are more than one L50 brand on the market?


----------



## LOUSYGREATWALLGM

Whoa! You caught me here :devil: I was getting desperate to find a L50 while waiting for your reply so I tried searching for a different one :tired:
PS: I'm an impulsive buyer :thumbsup:


----------



## Patriot

oops. accidental post.


----------



## Richie086

Patriot said:


> If anyone wants to send me and Oracle, I'll be happy to compare them with beamshots and light meter readings. Remember that tower is 1000' away.


 

Hey Patriot,

If you can try and keep my little Oracle 35w honey scratch-free, I'd be happy to send you mine for a short visit. I assume if I pay shipping and full insurance to your house, you'd be able to do the same back to me in New York. If that's okay, please PM me your information. Obviously I'd send it in its aluminum case and all accessories it comes with.


----------



## Patriot

I might be up for that depending on the shipping. Having someone on the west coast would be better but let's see. PM me.


----------



## Richie086

Patriot said:


> I might be up for that depending on the shipping. Having someone on the west coast would be better but let's see. PM me.


 

Let me know if you don't get any takers. If not, I'll get a shipping quote first :thumbsup:


----------



## Juggernaut

I wouldn’t be surprised if the Oracle couldn’t even hit the tower, the most it seems to throw for me is about 300 yards.


----------



## Patriot

Juggernaut said:


> I wouldn’t be surprised if the Oracle couldn’t even hit the tower, the most it seems to throw for me is about 300 yards.



OP reflectors struggle.


----------



## windstrings

Patriot said:


> OP reflectors struggle.



Yea.. that light was designed to bathe the immediate surrounding area in a nice smooth beam... not for distant throw per se.

I do have to admit though the beam is nice and smooth!


----------



## Chase023

I just bought this 35w Oracle HID Flashlight and it does not have the blue/green ring in the rear. Is this just a new version of it??

Does anyone else's 35w Oracle not come with the rear LEDs to indicate the power?


----------



## 07gttom

*how does this light compair to the AE Xenide 25W? i am looking for a hid light, but want quality with it. I am in law enforcement and if i chose to pull out the HID, i want to know that if by some reason it were to be dropped, it would still work... or am i just dreaming on that point...*
*I have an elektrolumens 3 cree mce led's in a 4/c mag host. supposed to be 2100 lumens. it is very bright, but dosn't really throw. more of a flood light. those of you that have both, the oracle and the ae xenide 25, in your opinion which one is brighter, throws more and will survive my job better.*
*thanks*


----------



## CajunJosh

07gttom said:


> *how does this light compair to the AE Xenide 25W? i am looking for a hid light, but want quality with it. I am in law enforcement and if i chose to pull out the HID, i want to know that if by some reason it were to be dropped, it would still work... or am i just dreaming on that point...*
> *I have an elektrolumens 3 cree mce led's in a 4/c mag host. supposed to be 2100 lumens. it is very bright, but dosn't really throw. more of a flood light. those of you that have both, the oracle and the ae xenide 25, in your opinion which one is brighter, throws more and will survive my job better.*
> *thanks*



I have the AE Xenide 25W and the light is built like a tank. I've never dropped it on patrol (sadly only my most expensive Polarion PH50 has been dropped). Judging by the build quality and the rubber bumpers on the light I would think it could take a fall. I know AE light recently put the light through all types of Hazmat certifications as well.

The one con to the light is the startup time. I've found that when I've needed this light to check an area quickly it just takes too long to startup. If you do get serious about buying one PM me. I'd be willing to give you a good deal on mine.


----------



## windstrings

CajunJosh said:


> The one con to the light is the startup time. I've found that when I've needed this light to check an area quickly it just takes too long to startup. If you do get serious about buying one PM me. I'd be willing to give you a good deal on mine.



You can also return it within a year minus a 15% restocking fee I believe if someone doesn't give you an offer.


----------



## windstrings

Chase023 said:


> I just bought this 35w Oracle HID Flashlight and it does not have the blue/green ring in the rear. Is this just a new version of it??
> 
> Does anyone else's 35w Oracle not come with the rear LEDs to indicate the power?




You only see the ring when the light is on.. I think it was green while on 35W mode and blue while on 28W mode....."unless I have it backwards"... otherwise, I don't know.

If its a new version, maybe you can find out whats all different.


----------



## Air Biscuit

Chase023 said:


> I just bought this 35w Oracle HID Flashlight and it does not have the blue/green ring in the rear. Is this just a new version of it??
> 
> Does anyone else's 35w Oracle not come with the rear LEDs to indicate the power?



I'm in the same boat. Ordered it through the link with the discounted price and no high/low setting. Had my wife call (i'm out of country at the moment) and AAC said this light didn't have that option. I didn't know there was a choice. They said I could order that particular battery with the high/low switch and then it would work fine. Not a big deal for me as an extra battery would be nice. Now, if i could just get home to use it....


----------



## Patriot

07gttom said:


> *how does this light compair to the AE Xenide 25W? i am looking for a hid light, but want quality with it. I am in law enforcement and if i chose to pull out the HID, i want to know that if by some reason it were to be dropped, it would still work... or am i just dreaming on that point...*
> *I have an elektrolumens 3 cree mce led's in a 4/c mag host. supposed to be 2100 lumens. it is very bright, but dosn't really throw. more of a flood light. those of you that have both, the oracle and the ae xenide 25, in your opinion which one is brighter, throws more and will survive my job better.*
> *thanks*


 

The Xenide is a great light with outstanding run-time. Although the 35W Oracle is producing more lumens the AE will probably match it in throw. As for the reliability of the Oracle. It's anyone's guess, which is the case with most lights. There are no standards with which to measure and until some independent tests 5-10 of each model to destruction, there just isn't any real world data. AE as been around for a while and has a good reputation. The Oracle is new, half the price, and most owners seem to like it. 

Either of these HID's will smoke your 3 x MCE in the throw department. Hope that helps.


----------



## Chase023

Air Biscuit said:


> I'm in the same boat. Ordered it through the link with the discounted price and no high/low setting. Had my wife call (i'm out of country at the moment) and AAC said this light didn't have that option. I didn't know there was a choice. They said I could order that particular battery with the high/low switch and then it would work fine. Not a big deal for me as an extra battery would be nice. Now, if i could just get home to use it....


 
If you get the different battery, doesn't that mean u need a different end cap for the flashlight? Mine looks solid and doesn't look like any light will shine thru it when its capped on the end.

Also I just called AAC and they said it should have the blue/green LED ring on the end for the 35w Oracle HID Flashlight, so I am kinda lost. Is the non LED one a newer version or an older version of it or maybe some anomaly or??

Anyways I think I will send it back and try to get me one with the LED rings cuz thats what they said it should have.


----------



## stollman

I took the Oracle 35W for a little caving (damp/wet environment) trip this past weekend. It held up pretty well. I shot some video using it and the Barn Burner. I'll post the YouTube links on this thread when I finish the editing. Even though the light has an orange peel reflector, which worked well for lighting up cave passages, I needed a more diffused light for video (remove artifacts). Due to the heat concern of an HID, I purchased a Barn Burner Diffuser from Xevision and took a Dremel to it (with a router attachment). I cut out a 76mm circle and had to taper the outside edge to fit into the rubber filter housing (removed amber lens)....the Diffuser material was a little thicker than the amber lens. I also put a piece of Press-N-Seal plastic wrap over the front of the lens, which eliminated the remaining hot spot. If smoothed out the light output nicely. I may have lost a few lumens, but I was happy with the results.


----------



## Patriot

Stollman, when you post your videos, please post a picture of your mod too if possible. 

Thanks.


----------



## 07gttom

Air Biscuit said:


> I'm in the same boat. Ordered it through the link with the discounted price and no high/low setting. Had my wife call (i'm out of country at the moment) and AAC said this light didn't have that option. I didn't know there was a choice. They said I could order that particular battery with the high/low switch and then it would work fine. Not a big deal for me as an extra battery would be nice. Now, if i could just get home to use it....


 
i asked them this on the marketplace..
_does this model (35w) have two power settings? at first i read it did but two other members on candlepowerforums wrote that that their flashlight did not have the multi-mode battery system giving it the ability to operate on high power (100%) and low power (70%) with the blue and green light to indicate what level was on. was there a change??_

their response was
The $219 35W version only has 1 setting (100%) There is a $20 fee for the dual-mode battery which brings the total to $239. The dual mode battery allows the light to function at 35W (BLUE Indicator) or 27W (GREEN Indicator) or OFF.


----------



## Chase023

07gttom said:


> i asked them this on the marketplace..
> _does this model (35w) have two power settings? at first i read it did but two other members on candlepowerforums wrote that that their flashlight did not have the multi-mode battery system giving it the ability to operate on high power (100%) and low power (70%) with the blue and green light to indicate what level was on. was there a change??_
> 
> their response was
> The $219 35W version only has 1 setting (100%) There is a $20 fee for the dual-mode battery which brings the total to $239. The dual mode battery allows the light to function at 35W (BLUE Indicator) or 27W (GREEN Indicator) or OFF.


 
When I purchased the flashlight, I had no idea it had 2 versions of it and was expecting the LED power setting version because I saw pictures of it on this thread, but I guess the auction description had nothing regarding a power setting/Green, Blue LEDs.

After some thought I think I will just keep the light as is and not bother sending it to see if I can get the other version. 

I like the look of the Blue LED ring in the rear but I think I like the fact that it's setting is just at 100%.


----------



## windstrings

I have found it extremely rare that I would actually want to use the lower settings.

Unless you were on a long hike or any situation where you risked running out of battery runtime, you will always want the higher setting anyway.

If your like me and use it mostly for the wow factor and showing off.. its a non-issue.

If you honestly go cave trekking or hiking/hunting at night, the lower setting "=longer runtime" may be worth the trouble.

This light is really too bright for most applications anyway... like using a deer rifle with a scope to hunt squirrels in the tree in front of you!.... "thats a southern thing":thumbsup:

There is such a thing as too much light... for close applications.
Your Oracle will be mostly for non conventional uses.

If your a firefighter, I would want the lower settings as nights can grow long on a fire scene.


----------



## Patriot

What seems odd to me is that the dual output level seems to be controlled by the battery and not the ballast. I have no idea how that's technically possible unless the Oracle is simply unregulated.


----------



## LOUSYGREATWALLGM

Hi Chase023, you might consider having dual modes instead just the on/off function. I believe there's just a very little difference in brightness between the 35W and 28W but you will gain more run time at 28W. Mine is 35W/28W


----------



## CUL8R

I just got mine approximately 2 weeks ago (silver), and it was $219 with the blue/green indicator and 2 power settings.

Jim


----------



## windstrings

LOUSYGREATWALLGM said:


> Hi Chase023, you might consider having dual modes instead just the on/off function. I believe there's just a very little difference in brightness between the 35W and 28W but you will gain more run time at 28W. Mine is 35W/28W



I haven't tested the Oracle extensively, but normally the differences in power settings are subliminal when up close. You will only see the real differences in the distance.

This is true when dealing with radio transmitters too.
How many times have you done a test with two lights and they both look virtually the same against a nearby wall or even your garage door outside... but looking 200 yards away at night becomes more obvious.

As the power increases, so the distance must increase to really appreciate that power.

So in a nutshell, the dual modes are good if allot of what you do is within 100 yards or so.. because the extra 7 watts is not even noticeable so might as well get more runtime if you need it.


----------



## LOUSYGREATWALLGM

windstrings said:


> I haven't tested the Oracle extensively, but normally the differences in power settings are subliminal when up close. You will only see the real differences in the distance.
> 
> This is true when dealing with radio transmitters too.
> How many times have you done a test with two lights and they both look virtually the same against a nearby wall or even your garage door outside... but looking 200 yards away at night becomes more obvious.
> 
> As the power increases, so the distance must increase to really appreciate that power.
> 
> So in a nutshell, the dual modes are good if allot of what you do is within 100 yards or so.. because the extra 7 watts is not even noticeable so might as well get more runtime if you need it.


Agreed! :thumbsup:


----------



## stollman

Runtimes

I have (3) batteries, and just completed runtime tests on all of them. On "high", I am getting pretty much 72-80 minutes on all of them. I ended testing after the 80 minute mark...just wanted to see if the runtimes matched the website stat.


----------



## Patriot

Impressive data stollman.


----------



## LOUSYGREATWALLGM

stollman said:


> Runtimes
> 
> I have (3) batteries, and just completed runtime tests on all of them. On "high", I am getting pretty much 72-80 minutes on all of them. I ended testing after the 80 minute mark...just wanted to see if the runtimes matched the website stat.


72 - 80 minutes per pack. Was it a continuous run oh high mode or its just the total time of short period runs ? You said you all 3 battery packs were tested, did you test them right after the other? I'm wondering if the lens/reflector/o-ring/ballast can take that beating (3 packs non-stop run on high mode). I broke my lens after 30 - 40 minutes continuous run on high mode a couple of weeks back. Now I'm hesitant to use my light for that long again. One more question, do you also experiencing the said parasitic drain when storing the battery packs?
You might also want to test the run times on low mode. :naughty:


----------



## LOUSYGREATWALLGM

Anybody ever tried replacing their reflector with SMO one? Or is there a SMO reflector from the market that can use on this Oracle 35W? I feel too much spill from the original reflector :shakehead


----------



## stollman

I charged all (3) packs and tested them one right after the other in my basement. The 72-80 minute was a continuous run in high for each battery. I tested one battery right after the other. I tested the light by placing it on my basement floor (cool). I also put a fan on the light to help keep it cool. I know how hot HIDs can get, and did not want the light damaged from heat. With the fan blowing on it, the light never got hot, just slightly warm. I don't think I would test any HID for extended run tests without some type of cooling. I think Xevision does not recommend running their BB continuous after 45 minutes (duration of one battery).
.
No experience regarding battery drain. The use of my light is planned, so I always charge up my batteries before I take out the light.
.
Regarding swapping out the reflector, it appears to be integrated into the bezel.


----------



## LOUSYGREATWALLGM

stollman said:


> I charged all (3) packs and tested them one right after the other in my basement. The 72-80 minute was a continuous run in high for each battery. I tested one battery right after the other. I tested the light by placing it on my basement floor (cool). I also put a fan on the light to help keep it cool. I know how hot HIDs can get, and did not want the light damaged from heat. With the fan blowing on it, the light never got hot, just slightly warm. I don't think I would test any HID for extended run tests without some type of cooling. I think Xevision does not recommend running their BB continuous after 45 minutes (duration of one battery).
> .
> No experience regarding battery drain. The use of my light is planned, so I always charge up my batteries before I take out the light.
> .
> Regarding swapping out the reflector, it appears to be integrated into the bezel.


Thanks!! I used mine to light my room (tail standing) when the light went off so no cooling devise used until the lens broke. The lens got very hot at the point where I almost burned my finger when I tried to test the heat from the broken lens


----------



## CUL8R

Just did a runtime test on mine. 77min 35 sec on high, and 87 min 12 sec on low. I followed the same procedure as when I tested the batteries for my 24W; 5 minutes off for cool down after every 25 minutes of runtime.

Jim


----------



## CUL8R

Patriot said:


> What seems odd to me is that the dual output level seems to be controlled by the battery and not the ballast. I have no idea how that's technically possible unless the Oracle is simply unregulated.


 
Patriot,

The setup with the battery and ballast on the Oracle 35 is interesting. If you remove the battery and look at the ballast contacts, you will find 4 contact points; a center dot with 3 rings around it at varying distances from center. The 35W battery with the high and low selections has 4 pins to match the 4 contact points on the ballast. It appears when you select either high or low, the battery power is being sent to different contacts on the ballast, thus activating full or reduced power settings from the ballast to the bulb. The batteries that came with my 24W oracle only have 2 pins, although interestingly the ballast in the light has the same 4 contacts as the 35W model. I have to assume the single mode 35w light that is now being sold has a battery that only has 2 contacts (or only has two contacts wired internally). I can take and upload some pictures later if you want to see what I'm talking about.

Added on edit: If you look at Windstrings post #25 on page 1 of this thread, you will find pictures showing the 4 contacts on the battery and inside the flashlight, on the back of the ballast assembly.

Jim


----------



## Patriot

Jim, you drew a pretty good mental picture for me but if the photos are easy to upload that would be great too. It's almost like the battery is alternately sending voltage through a resistor of some type when using the second set of tabs. After hearing this, I really doubt that any switching is happening inside of the ballast itself though. Thanks for the interesting info.


Paul


----------



## LOUSYGREATWALLGM

CUL8R said:


> Just did a runtime test on mine. 77min 35 sec on high, and 87 min 12 sec on low. I followed the same procedure as when I tested the batteries for my 24W; 5 minutes off for cool down after every 25 minutes of runtime.


Thank you so much Jim, I can now use my 35W without worrying too much for the lens and ballast :twothumbs
- Jeff


----------



## SunFire900

I thought I'd bump the thread and add a few comments here since I received this light yesterday.

First of all, the package came perfectly undamaged by priority mail. Big plus.

When I opened the carry case the first thing I saw was a gleaming silver colored steroidal flashlight. 

I had ordered the dual-mode battery with it, but when I looked I saw a solid black on/off button cap and knew they had sent the single-mode battery by mistake. No clear plastic, no LED indicators. Bummer. I immediately emailed Justin about this, but I'm still waiting for an answer. (Weekend)

But wait! I removed the rubber cap from the contact end of the battery and voila', four contact pins! This must be a "New and Improved" dual-mode version that was made to reduce costs and user friendliness. Now we can just guess what mode we are in? I hate "bait and switch"! 

[ We reserve the right to change quality, specifications and anything else we want without the knowledge of the consumer ]






I realize (I think) that when you first press the switch you are in High mode (?). Touching the button lightly again will put the light in Low mode (?). Can I be sure of this? Everyone has said that it is hard to see the difference between Low and High so now, to be sure, I have to switch the light OFF and then ON again (re-strike) and go from there. Don't like this at all. I do like the longer run time and don't want to give that up, but this is nuts.

I like cheese with my whine. (Whining stops)

I charged the battery and installed it. When I switched the light on last night I was really surprised to see just how warm the 4300k bulb was. Wow, warmer than my old M-chargers! No blue here, guys. The light is really a flooder and blasts light out in all directions....very warm light too. You just can't be anywhere in front of the light and glance at it without getting blue and green spots in your eyes for a while. Not too much info. on CPF about beam color, so it did take me by surprise.

I'm happy with the light, but not so much with the "guesswork" style of battery/mode control.:shakehead


----------



## Juggernaut

One click for on-another click for low-another for off and the cycle repeats it’s self.


----------



## SunFire900

Juggernaut said:


> One click for on-another click for low-another for off and the cycle repeats it’s self.



I'm afraid mine doesn't work like that. "Clicking" (pushing button all the way in and releasing) turns my light on and off only. Now, if I "soft" press the button (no click) while the light is on, it flashes off and on, but it stays on until switched off. There is no cycling. It is a reverse clicky type of switch, not tactical. Again, you cannot tell what level you are in.

I'm finding this hard to clearly explain,:thinking: but there is definitely no normal cycle as mentioned in your quote above.

Thanks for trying to help, Juggernaut. I wish the light came with more than just basic, single-mode instructions.


----------



## Richie086

Was something changed on this light that I missed? The dual mode battery lights up with and colored ring on the button. If you don't have the lighted ring, you don't have dual mode.


----------



## SunFire900

Richie, I don't have the lighted ring. But what I do have is the Four pins on the top which made me think (still haven't heard back from Oracle) it may be a new style dual-mode. 

All the single mode batteries I have seen have only Two contact pins.

I will call AAC later if I don't hear from them soon.


----------



## Richie086

SunFire900 said:


> Richie, I don't have the lighted ring. But what I do have is the Four pins on the top which made me think (still haven't heard back from Oracle) it may be a new style dual-mode.
> 
> All the single mode batteries I have seen have only Two contact pins.
> 
> I will call AAC later if I don't hear from them soon.


 

Hi there Sunfire,

I see what you mean. Just so you know, my dual mode battery has 4 pins, but it also has the lighted ring. I'm not aware of the dual mode battery being available without the lighted ring. Keep in mind this dual mode battery with the lighted ring is a new feature. I'd be amazed if it was done away with so soon after it's come to market. 

If it turns out they did away with the lighted electronic ring, I'd have to say it would be due to the fact that electronic lighted switch requires almost no pressure to activate. If transporting the flashlight inside the case with the battery inside the flashlight, having an accidental activation is a certainty. 

When Justin gets back to you, please post whatever you find out. Thanks.


----------



## SunFire900

When I got home this afternoon I had an email from Justin @ ACC saying he'd send the dual mode battery out immediately.:thumbsup:

In my initial email to him, I didn't mention the the 4 pins because I had not yet seen them. I'd only seen the black, no light end cap at that time that told me "single mode". I will get back to him sometime about that.

The 4-pins were really confusing me.

I know what you mean about the light-touch activation button on the dual-mode. I will be careful of that. The single mode battery has, as I said a reverse clicky and therefor is NOT easily switched on. But, for the life of me, I can't figure out why, while the light is ON that lightly pressing the button will momentarily (until you release it again) turn the light OFF! I have not yet seen any other light switch do this, have you?

I'll let you know what happens when I get the 2-mode battery.


----------



## Richie086

SunFire900 said:


> When I got home this afternoon I had an email from Justin @ ACC saying he'd send the dual mode battery out immediately.:thumbsup:.


 

Awesome! Yeah, Justin takes care of business very quickly once he's aware of a problem.




SunFire900 said:


> But, for the life of me, I can't figure out why, while the light is ON that lightly pressing the button will momentarily (until you release it again) turn the light OFF! I have not yet seen any other light switch do this, have you?
> 
> I'll let you know what happens when I get the 2-mode battery.


 
Yeah, you got me on that one. I suppose it's just how the Chinese build this particular light.


----------



## SunFire900

Update: I received the dual mode battery from AAC yesterday (9 days after I was told it was shipped by priority mail) and it arrived DOA. None of the LED's would light up when I removed it from the box. I put it on charge and the LED's lit, so I let it charge. 2.5 hrs later the charger light was green. I checked the voltage and it read 11.79v . I put it in the light, turned it on and it lit for 5 secs and flickered off. Put it back on charge and the charger LED flashed red-green-red-green, etc. Then the red light gradually blinked less and less until the light turned steady green. The charger was cool. Checked the voltage...11.79v. It just won't take a charge. Still waiting for Justin to return my email. 

Talk about bad luck.......


----------



## windstrings

sounds like the battery was dead..... the self drain issue would cause it to be dead upon arrival, but a quick charge should give you some life to run the light a while.
sounds like yours may not be accepting a charge.. make sure your charger is putting out the proper volts.. could be a bad charger.

Arriving doa could be one issue "common", but not charging could be another.


----------



## SunFire900

I'm pretty sure the charger is o.k. and is acting like it does because it is getting bad feedback from the battery after the voltage reaches its maximum of 11.8v. Also, I've charged my single-mode battery with the same charger, with normal results. The charger light goes from red to orange and then steady green with no red and green flicker at all.

If the LED's won't even glow when you receive the battery and when you charge it, it won't charge past 11.8v, then it's probably defective.


----------



## windstrings

Wow.. the LED's won't even light..... I can rub my head with my hand and make an LED light!

Does sound like your battery is toast..... I'm sure they will get you another.. these things happen and it obviously isn't the norm.


----------



## SunFire900

To be clear, Windstrings, the LED's didn't light on arrival, but when I put the battery on charge they did light up brightly. It seems that the low v. cutoff had actuated and was reset immediately by the charge current.


----------



## windstrings

If I remember right.. thats what mine did.. but it accepted a charge fine and worked great after that.
My whole issue with that battery was the fact that the main reason I use and want LiIon is not because its light, but because I can trust it when I go to use it as it has tremendous shelf life.
NiMH has a crummy shelf life as it commonly loses about 2 - 5% a day.. that means a month of storage could render it dead.
NiCad has terrible memory issues and does not compare.

If this happening with LiIon, I see it was a circuit malfunction or poor worksmanship and so I call it as I see it.

By the very nature of what you use a search light for, it needs to be able to be stowed away until a crisis or special need such as a breakdown etc.

I returned mine because of that issue... some folks don't care.

The Light seems great other than this battery issue that should be rectified by now.... they don't make it easy to modify and put in your own battery pack either.... the vendors that sell this light should consider an alternative.. maybe thats why its as cheap as it is?

I hate to be brutal, but that seems to be the story to me.


----------



## Twinkle-Plank

Does it feel solid? and is the build quality comparable to fenix?


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## SunFire900

You can't really compare this light w/any of the Fenix lights. It is much larger than any Fenix and definitely not an EDC light. The finish on mine is flawless, but it is not HAIII. In fact, I'm not sure what the finish is, but it really doesn't matter to me. It looks great. 

Solid? Solid enough to crack skulls I think. Not that you'd want to, of course. A more solidly built equivalent light would probably cost (and weigh) nearly twice as much.

I agree with windstrings that the battery is probably the weakest part of the light and the use of higher quality cells would be a welcomed improvement.


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## BVH

And using new cells may have already happened in their production. Early lights obtained about 40 minutes of runtime and newer owners are reporting 55 +.


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## SunFire900

windstrings: 

I find that I can read the battery voltage from the two outside poles of the battery at anytime whether switched on or off (??). I can't quite figure this out. It's the same on the single mode and dual mode batteries.

In your review I believe you said that there is no voltage at the poles when the battery is switched off. I don't think that is correct. The battery could be shorted [] even while switched off.

Any thoughts?


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## windstrings

SunFire900 said:


> windstrings:
> 
> I find that I can read the battery voltage from the two outside poles of the battery at anytime whether switched on or off (??). I can't quite figure this out. It's the same on the single mode and dual mode batteries.
> 
> In your review I believe you said that there is no voltage at the poles when the battery is switched off. I don't think that is correct. The battery could be shorted [] even while switched off.
> 
> Any thoughts?



I don't recall.. If so, I could have been wrong.
I definitely do not remember measuring voltage on the battery... my presumptions are only based on whether the LED would lite or not.

I could not switch the battery off I had.. I only had high and low and there was a tiny switch that turned the LED on or off.

The version I had was before the single and dual mode batteries I believe..with mine it was 28W setting or the 35W setting and that tiny switch for the LED.


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## Richie086

SunFire900 said:


> windstrings:
> 
> I find that I can read the battery voltage from the two outside poles of the battery at anytime whether switched on or off (??). I can't quite figure this out. It's the same on the single mode and dual mode batteries.


 

On the 35w dual mode battery, the two outer poles are always hot, whether powered or not, and why the rubber battery shield should always be in place when the battery is removed from the flashlight. On my Oracle 24w, the poles are only hot when the battery switch is turned on, but the battery configuration is different on the 24w version compared to the higher output, dual mode 35w battery pack.

This is how mine has always worked, and perhaps why eventually they start to leak power.


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## SunFire900

Thanks for your feedback, guys.

I found out tonight that when my charger light turned green and I checked the battery voltage, it was 12.87v.




Checked it with 3 DMM's. Looks like I might need another charger. 

I have terrible luck when it comes to getting overcharging li-ion battery chargers.





Would anyone care to guess (or maybe _know_) what the beam of this light would look like with a highly polished smooth reflector?


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## windstrings

SunFire900 said:


> Would anyone care to guess (or maybe _know_) what the beam of this light would look like with a highly polished smooth reflector?



Ok.. I'll guess.....
a little more artifact in your spill "less smooth" but more throw in the distance but not enough to cry about.
Also maybe a crisper contrast in the distance.


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## SunFire900

Thanks windstrings,

I can't disagree with any part of that. Anyway, it's very nice to have powerful, floody HID light with good throw. 

If I need a spotlight I'll get my Stanley HID.


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## Richie086

SunFire900 said:


> Thanks for your feedback, guys.
> 
> I found out tonight that when my charger light turned green and I checked the battery voltage, it was 12.87v.
> 
> 
> 
> Checked it with 3 DMM's. Looks like I might need another charger.


 

Hi SunFire,

Recently my original charger crapped out and Justin sent me the new updated version. I'm still within the 1 year warranty, so I didn't have to pay for it, but did have to send the defective unit back to him at my expense, which was fine with me. 

The new charger supplied by the manufacturer for the 35w are now rated and charge to 12.8v, not the previous 12.6v. I thought this is a bit high, but I'm not the manufacturer of these things. The charger seems to have a light for each stage of charging or condition of the battery. Red, Yellow, and Green for when charging is complete. 

Is this the type of charger you have?


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## windstrings

SunFire900 said:


> Thanks windstrings,
> 
> I can't disagree with any part of that. Anyway, it's very nice to have powerful, floody HID light with good throw.
> 
> If I need a spotlight I'll get my Stanley HID.



I agree.. if your wanting a spotlight, the Oracle is not the best choice as the spill and corona are massive... that light could be better focused to the distance if "spotting" is whats desired.

The oracle is the brightest "flashlight" I've ran across!

I've seen other 35HID's that were more attuned to being a spotlight but didn't have the splash to the sides to the degree the Oracle has.

Another way of looking at it so I don't sound negative... you get both with the Oracle!... Its bright enough to give you tons of spill and splash to the sides and still suffice for distance.

One must realize if your honestly trying to pick something out in the far distance, that splash and side spill only kills your vision as it makes your pupils contract to the close bright light and kills your distance vision anyway. If your light hits objects only a few feet away, it will be very difficult for your eyes to see the distance unless two things are happening...
1. The spill is only slight and rather subdued.
2. The light in the distance is very bright to overpower the nearby spill and pupil constriction to the eyes.

Another reason spotlights with little spill do better for that very job.


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## SunFire900

Richie086 said:


> Hi SunFire,
> 
> Recently my original charger crapped out and Justin sent me the new updated version. I'm still within the 1 year warranty, so I didn't have to pay for it, but did have to send the defective unit back to him at my expense, which was fine with me.
> 
> The new charger supplied by the manufacturer for the 35w are now rated and charge to 12.8v, not the previous 12.6v. I thought this is a bit high, but I'm not the manufacturer of these things. The charger seems to have a light for each stage of charging or condition of the battery. Red, Yellow, and Green for when charging is complete.
> 
> Is this the type of charger you have?



Yes, it's the same one. The light actually goes from red to orange to yellow and then to green when charge is complete. You have to stare at the sucker to see all the phases. I found that I could terminate the charge when the light first turns orange-yellow that the battery v. (when removed from charger) would be very close to 12.6v. If I charge until the light just starts to turn yellow/green, well, too late. It's already about 12.8v.

If the battery is supposed to charge to 12.8v, then the charging instructions are erroneous. The lack of comprehensive and trustworthy user manuals is a problem as I see it. Or, maybe I just worry too much.

Would you be happy charging your li-ion cells to 4.30v? It might add a couple minutes to run times, but it will certainly reduce the life of the cells.

Edit: To be fair, I just looked at the manual and it doesn't say anything about the battery voltage other than it being 12v. It was printed on the battery label that I sent back to Justin, saying not to exceed 12.6v. Nothing about voltage at all on my single mode battery.


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## Richie086

SunFire900 said:


> Would you be happy charging your li-ion cells to 4.30v? It might add a couple minutes to run times, but it will certainly reduce the life of the cells.


 

Actually I don't let it charge past 12.6v. Whether charging my 24w or the 35w, I always have a multimeter attached to the poles of the battery so I can actually see what it is and terminate the charge at a point I feel comfortable with.


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## SunFire900

Richie086 said:


> Actually I don't let it charge past 12.6v. Whether charging my 24w or the 35w, I always have a multimeter attached to the poles of the battery so I can actually see what it is and terminate the charge at a point I feel comfortable with.



Same here. 12.6v is my max also. It's a pain in the neck to have to bird-dog charging batteries, but it's the only way I can feel comfortable.


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## windstrings

SunFire900 said:


> If the battery is supposed to charge to 12.8v, then the charging instructions are erroneous. The lack of comprehensive and trustworthy user manuals is a problem as I see it. Or, maybe I just worry too much.



This is a worthy complaint.... its one thing not altering or modding the light for the better once it hits the states, its quite another not translating the manual to a respectable english that actually makes sense and is accurate.

If the manual was any worse, it wouldn't be english!


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## deeeey

I'm new to CPF and was long overdue to register as the Forum has been very helpful to me. I live in a rural farm area where walking my dog at night can be an adventure in the pitch black with critters lurking everywhere. After much research, I purchased the Oracle 24W last year and it's proved to be a wonderful light for my purpose. I also keep a Strion in my pocket for the times the Oracle abruptly shuts down as my 'get-me-home'.
While the Oracle 24W is great, a stronger beam would be better and I am considering the Oracle 35W. The 35W claims to have a 4200K bulb @ 3000 lumens verses the 24W's 4300K @ 2200 lumens. The 24W color is perfect and I'm considering the Oracle 35W because of the 4200K bulb (as well as the quality construction). Assuming the color will be comparable, what increase in throw could I expect from the 35W? Would it be worth it to shell out some of those once-a-month retirement bucks? I paid $149 for the 24W and am not sure what I'll have to pay for the 35W. Is there a CPF discount code for that model? Any advice would be greatly appreciated.


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## windstrings

I' ve found the wattage difference is pretty comparable with what you would expect.
Providing your dealing with the same quality reflector, 50W will be about twice the light of 24W.
The only time I really see a mismatch in wattage difference "as to what would be expected" is when one of the lights has a much larger reflector in which case you will get more light and throw abilities.. of course its more clunky and heavy.

Consider the L35 if they aren't still on backorder. It has a nice mult LED for taking it easy on the light and a good quality 35W output when you need to blast something.

I wouldn't steer you away from Oracle if it wasn't for all the complaints about their battery's lately.
I don't see anyone taking any effort to fix or rectify the problem and it really should be fixed by now.

I don't have a problem with Chinese imports but if there are deficiencies, they should be modified or not sold IMO....sorry.
They won't even rewrite the manual so it makes good sense in English... let alone do some modifications to fix anything.

This has been brought to their attention some while ago now... its appears apparent no one intends to make the situation good.

Maybe they have the attitude "you get what you pay for" and they don't care.

Seems there are still alot of battery issues with the Oracle 35W.... if you buy the Oracle, make sure they have a good return policy.


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## Billy Ram

Before knowing better I recently bought a 35x14 Oracle that never worked. I got tired of sending batterys back and forth so I sent the whole light back for a refund. It's a gamble so you may get lucky and get a good one like your 24w. I don't believe you'll see much differance though.
Billy


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## MattK

windstrings said:


> Consider the L35 if they aren't still on backorder. It has a nice mult LED for taking it easy on the light and a good quality 35W output when you need to blast something.



The L35's are still on backorder but are finally en route!


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## wild_mn

digging up the past but I just got my ship notification, I will post any issues or changes I see on mine.....


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## wild_mn

wild_mn said:


> digging up the past but I just got my ship notification, I will post any issues or changes I see on mine.....



Light arrived today after a few days in the UPS truck. LEDs on the Batt were impressive so I put the pack in and went outside. All I have to say is I am hooked on HID. after giggling to myself for 10 minutes or so I decided to actually charge the battery. I guess I will find out tomorrow what a full pack can do. So far so good, holding my breath that I got one of the good ones. :thumbsup:


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## spaz815

Will one of the ebay battery's work with this light? I noticed it says on some of them that It has strobe. Does that matter? Also has anyone rebuilt the battery? I've read a lot and haven't saw anyone do this. If so how is it done?


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