# Lathe Kills



## ma_sha1 (Apr 18, 2011)

A friend of mine went for a funeral, from whom I leaned the tragic death caused by lathe:
http://articles.cnn.com/2011-04-13/...p-yale-lab-president-richard-c-levin?_s=PM:US

I am glad I don't have a lathe now, probably will never get one.


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## Dsoto87 (Apr 18, 2011)

That's really unfortunate but it sounds like it could have been easily avoided. 

I'm no machinist but common sense would tell me to not work around running machinery with loose objects dangling off my body.

I'm not trying to downplay the accident but I wouldn't let this persuade me to not get a lathe


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## Steve K (Apr 18, 2011)

Very tragic and very sad! 

All power tools involve a certain amount of risk, and proper training and supervision is essential. Even with all of this, it's not that uncommon to meet woodworkers who have lost parts of their fingers to power tools. Heck, it's easy enough to hurt yourself with hand tools, but the low level of power and stored energy mean that lethal injuries are much less common.

If you do need/want to use a lathe, I wouldn't let this stop you. Just get the proper training and be very thoughtful and cautious when you use it. Otherwise, it's not so bad to take the work to a shop that can do the work for you. 

Personally, I've recently begun using unpowered hand tools almost exclusively. For my small projects, it's not much slower, and the risks are tiny. Fewer issues with power cords or battery charging too.

Again, very sorry to hear of this tragedy.

Steve K.


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## richpalm (Apr 18, 2011)

Oh, bummer... nice looking girl too. She should have had her hair up or tied back though. A shame... from the title I thought you might've been referring to a _part_ getting killed on the lathe.

Wouldn't stop me from having a lathe if I could afford one though. 

Rich


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## angelofwar (Apr 18, 2011)

Sad story...yeah, we're not allowed to wear any loose clothing, jewelry, hair has to be up, etc.. And cause it's the military, we can actually get in trouble for not following the rules. Seen alot of pic's of fingers ripped off, etc. Anything worn around the neck (badge holders, etc.), have to have break-away/quick disconnect features, etc. As the others have stated though, I wouldn't let this stop you from owning one.


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## LukeA (Apr 18, 2011)

While I admittedly don't know all the details to this story, I do think it was caused by a lack of safety education or a lack of internalization of safety information. I don't know enough to say who, but I think that someone was negligent in this incident, whether the girl wasn't presented with safety information (unlikely), or if she disregarded it. Although that doesn't make it any less tragic. 

I know I had to take chemical lab safety training before I was allowed to be in a lab where we worked with flammable and/or corrosive substances. The training was pretty cursory, but did cover the basics, which for chemistry include items such as "the vent hood is designed to withstand an explosion, so leave your experiment closed inside it" and "don't store flammable materials near a vent hood inside which a flammable experiment is being carried out." I imagine this student was presented with similar information for the machine shop environment, like "don't grab a spinning drill press spindle" and "tie hair back and don't wear loose clothing while operating machinery." 

That said, I don't think an accident caused by negligence is any reason to not buy a lathe or another tool, and I was once almost killed using a lathe (because of a freak accident, not negligence). I have used lathes since. 

I think the title of this thread should be "Negligence Kills."


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## Ken_McE (Apr 18, 2011)

Not the lathes fault. She didn't follow safe operating procedure. The danger of any tool or device is directly related to the usefulness of the device. It's on you to run it safely.


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## Steve K (Apr 18, 2011)

The military can be a good place to have these lessons reinforced. When I was in electronics tech training in the Marines, there was a rule against wearing watches, as they might be a potential cause of shorts in the electronics. Besides, this was still the era of vacuum tubes, so there were lethal voltages in the area. 

I recall one day working on my lab work when one of the Navy instructors asked me "Hey Marine, what time is it?". I looked at my watch and realized that I had screwed up. The punishment was pretty minor; just clean up the lab at the end of the day, but the lesson definitely stuck in my head! 

Proper safety training takes time, and needs to be repeated. Eventually you get it beaten into your head, learn to look for hazards and anticipate them, and just realize how many hazards are out there. Maybe it helps that I've worked with a variety of power tools, worked around jet aircraft, worked around large batteries (roughly equivalent to explosives), and currently work with electronics for large earthmoving equipment. 

be safe!

Steve K.


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## Diesel_Bomber (Apr 18, 2011)

Ouch. My condolences to her family. Only takes a moment's inattention to change your life forever.

I have a lathe myself, and it's undoubtedly the most dangerous tool I own. It'll spin 1500lbs of metal from a dead stop to 900rpms in about 2.5 seconds.

That's a LOT of energy.


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## flashflood (Apr 19, 2011)

Diesel_Bomber said:


> Ouch. My condolences to her family. Only takes a moment's inattention to change your life forever.
> 
> I have a lathe myself, and it's undoubtedly the most dangerous tool I own. It'll spin 1500lbs of metal from a dead stop to 900rpms in about 2.5 seconds.
> 
> That's a LOT of energy.


 
Yeah, a lathe is basically a chipper/shredder with the dangerous part fully exposed. What's really sad is that there's absolutely no reason for an accident like this. Long hair, long sleeves, loose clothing, jewelry, etc should never have gotten anywhere near the machine. Perhaps the smooth motion and lack of blades gives people a false sense of security.

The right shop training would be to get a video camera, turn on the lathe, and nudge a side of beef toward it. Engineers would not be surprised by the result, but I'll bet most people would be.


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## Th232 (Apr 19, 2011)

Always sad to hear this stuff. Can't say much more other than the safety rules other people have already said. Just because the pointy bit isn't the part that's moving doesn't mean it's any less safe. In fact, knifemakers often say the most dangerous piece of equipment in their shops is the buffer.



Diesel_Bomber said:


> I have a lathe myself, and it's undoubtedly the most dangerous tool I own. It'll spin 1500lbs of metal from a dead stop to 900rpms in about 2.5 seconds.


 
I know a fair number of lathes that weigh less than 1500 lbs themselves, how big is yours?!?


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## Monocrom (Apr 19, 2011)

Very sorry about what happened. A tragic death that could have been prevented as others have mentioned. Don't let it stop you from getting a lathe if you really want one.


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## Robocop (Apr 19, 2011)

I know nothing about lathes so forgive my ignorance on this question if the answer is obvious. Are there not any safety features built in these machines such as a foot pedal release or kill switch? 

If not maybe makers could think of a way to add such a safety feature but again I know nothing of the machines operations. Would various safety features somehow limit the machines capabilities?


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## ElectronGuru (Apr 19, 2011)

Robocop said:


> If not maybe makers could think of a way to add such a safety feature but again I know nothing of the machines operations. Would various safety features somehow limit the machines capabilities?


 
Reminds me of my childhood (dangerous equipment everywhere). When we a bought a new 'safety' mower, I couldn't get over how annoying the blade engagement lever was, it seemed such an inconvenience. Thinking now about the model before that, running fully driven over anything in sight just by letting go, could easily have removed toes.

Closest experience to this was dads grinder/brush. Both were connected via an automotive grade belt to a 10HP motor. No covers on belt or either wheel. One day (I was about 12), I got to close to the brush and it grabbed the front of my shirt, pulling it and me in. As I hit the front of the bench, the whole setup came to a halt, tention on the motor holding me in place. I managed to reach above me and kill the power, unwind my shirt and stand back up, unscathed. But I have other scares from other tools.

Can't imagine the horor in those few seconds, being pulled headfirst into a grinder, unable to escape.


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## alpg88 (Apr 19, 2011)

there are kill switches, but when your hair pulled and head bangged against rotating metal, in fraction of a second, you will most likely not be able to use it regardless of location, and ways of operating.

some lathes do have spindle\chak (sp?) cover, it wouldn't really stop your long hair getting cought, may be a little, but at least it wouldn't bang your head against rotating spindle, but i rearly seen those things stay on, ppl remove them, for many reasons, like save time, or simply cuz it is not needed if safety rules are followed.

when i was in school we had one guy leave the key in the spindle and turn the lathe on, there was no spindle cover on that lathe, he was lucky, he got hit by flying key, had half of the face, swallen and blue, but he learned his lesson well.


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## alpg88 (Apr 19, 2011)

LukeA said:


> While I admittedly don't know all the details to this story, I do think it was caused by a lack of safety education or a lack of internalization of safety information. I don't know enough to say who, but I think that someone was negligent in this incident, whether the girl wasn't presented with safety information (unlikely), or if she disregarded it. Although that doesn't make it any less tragic.
> 
> 
> 
> I think the title of this thread should be "Negligence Kills."


she did compleate safety course, but like you said she disregarded it.
http://www.boston.com/news/education/higher/articles/2011/04/19/yale_ramps_up_its_safety_training/
i agree on what thread name should be 100%


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## LukeA (Apr 19, 2011)

Robocop said:


> I know nothing about lathes so forgive my ignorance on this question if the answer is obvious. Are there not any safety features built in these machines such as a foot pedal release or kill switch?
> 
> If not maybe makers could think of a way to add such a safety feature but again I know nothing of the machines operations. Would various safety features somehow limit the machines capabilities?


 
As alpg88 mentioned, if your hair or clothes gets caught in a lathe, you won't have nearly enough time to realize what's happening before you're dead, let alone enough time to reach for and press a kill switch and then wait for the tool to spin down.


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## angelofwar (Apr 19, 2011)

As robot cop stated, and having seen them used, heavy machinery like this should really have a dead man switch. Lock-Out/Tag-out, Kill switches only go so far...dead man switches are pretty hard to beat when it comes to safety...


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## guiri (Apr 20, 2011)

Personally, I think if you have NO chains n' stuff on you, shave your head and work on it nekkid, you should be ok but then, I'm not a lathe guy either...


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## Dr Jekell (Apr 20, 2011)

angelofwar said:


> As robot cop stated, and having seen them used, heavy machinery like this should really have a dead man switch. Lock-Out/Tag-out, Kill switches only go so far...dead man switches are pretty hard to beat when it comes to safety...


 
For a lathe you would be lucky as after you have killed the motor guess what is still going to be spining at a very high rate of speed?

You could be grabbed and pulled into the machine in less than a second, far quicker than a dead man switch can operate.


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## flashflood (Apr 20, 2011)

Dr Jekell said:


> For a lathe you would be lucky as after you have killed the motor guess what is still going to be spining at a very high rate of speed?
> 
> You could be grabbed and pulled into the machine in less than a second, far quicker than a dead man switch can operate.


 
Check out SawStop. It's amazing what's technically possible if you're willing to sacrifice the machine to protect the operator (which seems like a no-brainer). It would be challenging to adapt this idea to a lathe -- there's far more angular momentum, and it's probably harder to detect small changes in capacitive loading -- but I'm sure it's possible. Never bet against engineers.


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## Dr Jekell (Apr 20, 2011)

The problem with using capacitive sensing is where are you going to put the sensor? It would also have problems detecting hair, clothing, jewellery, etc.

I suppose that you could work out some type of emergency stop system for a lathe

But it would have to be: 

- Cost effective 
- Not impair the operation of the machine or it accessories
- Be able retrofitted to all of the different make & models of Lathes in use without major modification
- Be able to account for the variables of the material & tools (type of material, weight, length, size, strength)
- Be able to stop the motor, chuck & material in less than one second
- (Most importantly) Not have false activations due to material being worked on.

I would equate the engineering challenge in trying to come up with a solution as trying to stop a full laden semi truck & trailer on a dime.

Sure you could do it but you would most likely destroy the machinery in the process of activating it (hence the no false activations on a several thousand dollar machine).

Or you could just do as was mentioned previously in this thread:



Steve K said:


> *Proper safety training takes time, and needs to be repeated. Eventually you get it beaten into your head,* learn to look for hazards and anticipate them, and just realise how many hazards are out there



Just giving one safety class to someone & then saying "have at it" is as bad of an idea as slathering yourself with fish guts & blood and going for a swim with great white sharks.


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## angelofwar (Apr 20, 2011)

Dr Jekell said:


> For a lathe you would be lucky as after you have killed the motor guess what is still going to be spining at a very high rate of speed?
> 
> You could be grabbed and pulled into the machine in less than a second, far quicker than a dead man switch can operate.



What if the dead-man switch was attached to a clutch/brake; 1) Power is cut 2) Gears Disengage 3) Brake/Slowing Mechanism is applied??? Kind of like a hydrostatic transmission on a forklift. One brake just slows it (inching brake), while the other brake disengages the tranny (would be the spinning mechanism/motor in the case of the lathe)????


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## fyrstormer (Apr 20, 2011)

Considering mitre saws have two-finger triggers that automatically shut off the motor and engage the brake when you let go, I see no reason why a lathe couldn't also have a deadman switch. That being said, it would be more difficult to make a truly effective deadman switch for a piece of floor-mounted machinery, because it would be very easy to keep putting your weight on the switch while trying to wrestle yourself free in a panic. The switch would need to be small and at least somewhat hard to reach -- perhaps a button built into a recess in the side of the lathe, near the floor, so you can press it by pushing your toes into the recess, but virtually impossible to press by accident.

I'm sure professional lathe operators would complain about having to keep one foot pressed against the side of the machine to keep it spinning, though -- but I don't see any reason why they couldn't just take the side panel off the lathe and hotwire the switch if it bothers them that much.


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## HarryN (Apr 20, 2011)

This is one of the reasons I am a big believer in having tools like this inside of cabinets and operated by cnc when ever possible. There are a lot of reasons to do things manually, but especially on very high power tools like a lathe or mill, it is quite a dangerous setup. I have power tools, and have had training (many years ago) but we all make mistakes. I caught myself this winter wearing long sleeves near a lathe and rolled them back, but just a few seconds is all it takes.

Frankly, Universities often have really archaic and "not ideal" equipment. It is entirely possible that she was looking closely at something because their lathe wasn't working all that well.

As far as safety devices, perhaps something similar to a kick plate from the chainsaw world would be viable?


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## fyrstormer (Apr 20, 2011)

CNC lathes make manual lathes look cheap, though. Your average Joe can actually afford a manual lathe if he really needs one. You pretty much have to own a machining business or be rich to own a CNC lathe.


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## alpg88 (Apr 20, 2011)

why not just follow safety instructions and common sence?? if her hair would be tied, or she had a cap on, it would not happen.


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## flashflood (Apr 20, 2011)

Dr Jekell said:


> The problem with using capacitive sensing is where are you going to put the sensor? It would also have problems detecting hair, clothing, jewellery, etc.
> 
> I suppose that you could work out some type of emergency stop system for a lathe
> 
> ...


 
No argument. You might not even want this on the vast majority of lathes that are sold to professionals. It's more something you'd want to develop for lathes that are sold to public machine shops for recreational use by amateurs.

Or, maybe you just force every user to watch a 10-second video of what happens to something sucked into a lathe, so they really get it, and let Darwin take it from there.


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## LukeA (Apr 20, 2011)

flashflood said:


> Check out SawStop. It's amazing what's technically possible if you're willing to sacrifice the machine to protect the operator (which seems like a no-brainer). It would be challenging to adapt this idea to a lathe -- there's far more angular momentum, and it's probably harder to detect small changes in capacitive loading -- but I'm sure it's possible. Never bet against engineers.


 
While that is a fantastic idea for a tablesaw, I don't think this is a good idea at all for a lathe, at least certainly not for a wood lathe. The time I was almost killed using a lathe, to which I alluded earlier, involved exactly the circumstances you're talking about. 

I had a ~4-5lb round of cherry glued through a sheet of newspaper to a square of pine 2x6 which was screwed to the lathe headstock plate. This is pretty standard practice because it allows you to fasten your workpiece to the headstock securely enough to allow you to do whatever turning you want to do, but remain able to separate the workpiece later with minimal damage. The lathe was set to its highest speed to finish rounding off the block. After several minutes of normal operation, a small piece of metal debris inside the motor jammed the rotor and the stator, instantly stopping it. The motor, belt, and headstock stopped just as quickly, shearing the cherry from the pine and ejecting it from the lathe at high speed. By my extreme luck, the block came off in a direction such that it hit the securely-fastened toolrest, and bounced up at most two inches from my face, dented the cold air return attached to the ceiling, and proceeded to bounce relatively harmlessly across the room. 

So I don't think a SawStop-like device for a wood lathe is feasible, even if it could be reliably actuated.


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## Diesel_Bomber (Apr 20, 2011)

Th232 said:


> I know a fair number of lathes that weigh less than 1500 lbs themselves, how big is yours?!?


 
It's a metal lathe, 100" between centers. Each of the two chucks weigh around 400lbs, and 10' of 6" material is about 1000lbs. There is assorted other gearing and bearings and the spindle itself not included in this figure.


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## ma_sha1 (Apr 20, 2011)

flashflood said:


> Check out SawStop. It's amazing what's technically possible if you're willing to sacrifice the machine to protect the operator (which seems like a no-brainer). It would be challenging to adapt this idea to a lathe -- there's far more angular momentum, and it's probably harder to detect small changes in capacitive loading -- but I'm sure it's possible. Never bet against engineers.


 
Awesome safety mechanism! 

I use table saw with metal 10" cutting wheel for most of my mods. 
The safety feature looks like it would only work for wood cutting wheels???
As the metal cutting wheel don't have "teeth", the safety feature appears to "catch the teeth" to stop the blade.

That's too bad, I'd love to upgrade if it works with smooth edge metal cutting wheels.


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## HotWire (Apr 20, 2011)

Really a sad thing. When I was in the Navy a guy got caught in the anchor chain windlass and was crushed to death. Safety is always paramount.


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## Steve K (Apr 21, 2011)

LukeA said:


> ....... By my extreme luck, the block came off in a direction such that it hit the securely-fastened toolrest, and bounced up at most two inches from my face, dented the cold air return attached to the ceiling, and proceeded to bounce relatively harmlessly across the room.
> 
> So I don't think a SawStop-like device for a wood lathe is feasible, even if it could be reliably actuated.


 
As someone with a small amount of experience on a lathe, this story makes me wonder of some sort of safety shield could be placed between the lathe and the user. I'm thinking of a heavy piece of plexiglass that would keep items from flying off the lathe and hitting the user, as well as keep the user's hair/sleeves/beard/necktie out of the lathe. There would need to be a gap at the bottom to allow the cutting tool to get the item being worked on (on a wood lathe), or allow the user to crank the cutting tool around on a metal lathe. Mentally, I have a vision of something a lot like a sneeze guard at the salad bar. 

I can imagine some issues with this, specifically the problem of wood shavings accumulating on the inside surface of the guard. This might be fixed with forced air to blow the sawdust off the plastic, combined with a shop vacuum below to collect the sawdust.

This is just a bit of brainstorming for some way to keep people out of the rotating parts, and keep parts (or chuck keys) from flying off and hitting the operator. For a shop with multiple users with limited supervision and experience, this might be a great tool.

regards,

Steve K.


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## alpg88 (Apr 21, 2011)

Steve K said:


> For a shop with *multiple users with limited supervision and experience*, this might be a great tool.
> 
> regards,
> 
> Steve K.


 
that is your problem right there, combination of these things, take any one away, and place gets a lot safer.
The best way to deal with problems, is deal with the reason that problem exists, not consequences


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## angelofwar (Apr 21, 2011)

alpg88 said:


> that is your problem right there, combination of these things, take any one away, and place gets a lot safer.
> The best way to deal with problems, is deal with the reason that problem exists, not consequences


 
Yep...Root Cause Analysis...why? why? why? why? why?

Find the core of the problem and go from there...not working backwards...


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## beerwax (Apr 22, 2011)

what about a physical barrier that allows any necessary access, but physically stops the your body/head contacting the lathe. . specially with students. 

i can still remember my instructer telling me, after i killed the power and was waiting for the lathe to stop spinning, dont wait till it stops you will be there all day.


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## LukeA (Apr 22, 2011)

Steve K said:


> As someone with a small amount of experience on a lathe, this story makes me wonder of some sort of safety shield could be placed between the lathe and the user. I'm thinking of a heavy piece of plexiglass that would keep items from flying off the lathe and hitting the user, as well as keep the user's hair/sleeves/beard/necktie out of the lathe. There would need to be a gap at the bottom to allow the cutting tool to get the item being worked on (on a wood lathe), or allow the user to crank the cutting tool around on a metal lathe. Mentally, I have a vision of something a lot like a sneeze guard at the salad bar.


 
Thick wire safety shields have existed for decades, but aren't particularly well-recieved because they heavily restrict access to the work, much of which is necessary, like measurement using calipers or a diameter jig and sanding.


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## PhotonWrangler (Apr 22, 2011)

Would it be possible to set up a laser safety barrier near the rotating head in a manner that it wouldn't trip from spinning parts but would sense the intrusion of a head or other obstruction? Seems to me that you could provide a highly polished reflective area on the tool that could be aligned with a reflective optical interruptor system that would trigger braking action when it detected something in it's beam.


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## iq2k (May 9, 2011)

I think the only way to lessen the chance of an accident is to abide by all the safety regulations, get comprehensive training And make sure tragedies such as this serve as a reminder as to the importance of safety first.
Measure, measure, measure for dimension as much as risk before proceeding.
If you feel pushed into getting something done in hurry then maybe you will not have full concentration regarding safe ways to precede.
I have seen guards that prevent the starting of some lathes with the chuck key in place but this will not help if the danger comes from 100 kilos of steel flying out of a loose chuck at 200mph or so. There are also tools to aid sanding without putting hands near a lathe in motion but people still do and when the abrasive snags, it's either all over or you ripped your thumb off rather than being pulled in. The time taken to even look at a kill switch would be to late. Also serious amounts or turning weight would need to be stopped gradually as there would be a massive amount of energy still in the piece being worked which could rip violently from the chuck and freely through the air or any other obstruction such as you. Things like no sleeves, loose clothing or loose hair were things I learned in school however there will always be losses of concentration that leave lasting reminders for others to do better in the future.
I for one will endeavour to prove the lesson a valuable one learned by me as I continue in my goals.
My heart goes out to her family and friends


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## gadget_lover (May 12, 2011)

Every tool is capable of causing injury. We learn as children not to run with scissors. When you learn to use machine tools you have to learn to be safe.

One of the problems is that you can often get away with being sloppy. I've broken just about every rule at least once, sometimes through inattention and other times through ignorance. Occasionally it's deliberate. Most often it's because I'm concentrating on the work I'm doing.

When you get away with breaking the minor rules, you become complacent about all of them. I don't know if that's what happened to the young woman, but it is something we need to keep in mind as we make and mod our lights.

Daniel


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