# Flashlight as kubaton



## MGLloyd (Apr 5, 2008)

I have posted here before about the use of a small flashlight as a kubaton. Since I am often in government buildings on business, my conventional kubatons generally do not pass the security screen. Since I have not been happy with the many flashlights I have used as a kubaton, I am still using an old Monadnock Persuader Model 2. In order to have an emergency light source, I attached a Photon Freedom Light to my keychain.

My concerns with the flashlights have usually been the weight, the diameter, the light output or how badly it gets beat up in my pocket attached to the keys. I am in a business suit five days a week and large or heavy flashlights just don't fit well in suit pants. I must have tried out more than 10 small flashlights, from xenon to LED bulbs, from N cells to double AAs, from anodized aluminum to neon-colored polycarbonate. A partial list would be the AA MagLite (xenon and LED), various Inova models, Streamlight and Pelican N cell flashlights, Streamlight AAA xenon dive lights, Underwater Kinetics AAA dive lights, the Streamlight BatonLite, etc.

I am pleased to report that I have just found a new flashlight that bodes well for use as a kubaton. I was in a local variety store (Fred Meyer, for anyone else in the Pacific NW), and saw a new flashlight hanging on the rack. It is the Garrity LED penlight and cost $ 7. A picture can be seen here: http://www.geekbro.com/index.cfm/hu...200gst06a-Nichia-Led-Stainless-Steel-Penlight

It is a long, thin flashlight with a tail clicky switch, a single 5 mm Nichia LED, takes two AAA batteries and has a robust stainless steel body. It is about a quarter inch longer than my Persuader kubaton. The beam is a tight, white spot with very little flood. It is brighter than the beam from my Photon Freedom light. It is not as bright as my Luxeon or Cree flashlights, but then again, those LEDs do not come in as small or inexpensive a form factor.

It did not have an attachment point for my keyring, so I drilled a small hole where the clip attaches to the body and put a split ring through the hole.

I have done some testing, and the flashlight still works after drop testing, whacking it against a counter and I cannot bend the tube body of the light. The brushed stainless steel conceals scratches and the like very well. The switch requires a firm click to activate, and so far it has not come on while in my pocket. Using common (AAA) batteries is a plus, and since it is a LED, I should get some very good battery life from this model.

If you also like to use a flashlight as a kubaton, think about this model.

PS: edited to add that the LED is recessed and behind a lens.


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## Tachikoma (Apr 5, 2008)

IMHO the best flashlight to use as a Kubotan (or Kubaton, there are 2 spells accepted) is the Inova X5, perfect size, weight AND resistence. :thumbsup:


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## Led75 (Apr 5, 2008)

What about Streamlights version of the kubaton?...the 3 ncell


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## MGLloyd (Apr 5, 2008)

I have tried both the Inovas and the Streamlight models referenced above. The Streamlight is dimmer and the Inova is larger and heavier, albeit with greater brightness. The Garrity is much cheaper than either of them. 

My two cents and your mileage may vary.


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## Tachikoma (Apr 5, 2008)

MGLloyd said:


> My two cents and your mileage may vary.


What does it mean? Could you explain it to me? (I'm Italian, so I don't know English ways of saying very well  )


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## Paladin (Apr 5, 2008)

I just don't see how a 2aaa light can be any more effective than a normal pen. IMO lights such as the Pelican 2370 or Surefire 9P size are an order of magnitude greater in effectiveness and much easier to grasp firmly. In particular the Pelican posseses a raised, thin metal rim around the bezel, and a solid buttcap that enhances striking capability without damaging or activating the light itself. Running on pair of 17500 Li-ion cells the lumens are guilt free.

Paladin


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## MGLloyd (Apr 5, 2008)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/My_two_cents_(idiom)

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/your_mileage_may_vary

In a nutshell, these two idioms commonly used in North American English, mean that "this is only my opinion" and "your opinion may be different".


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## MGLloyd (Apr 5, 2008)

In regards to Paladin above, for my situation, involving business dress and frequent entries into courthouses, one of my Surefires or the like is too large, heavy, the knurling eats my suits and may be confiscated at the security station. 

So for me, a small, lightweight and durable flashlight that I can attach to my keys meets my needs. This serves double duty as a flashlight and improvised defense tool. I used to be a kubotan instructor, and the Garrity works very well as a kubotan. 

Your mileage may vary, of course.


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## Tachikoma (Apr 5, 2008)

Wakarimashita


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## MGLloyd (Apr 5, 2008)

I would also point out that this would be an excellent penlight for the medical field. I used to work in emergency medical services, and a durable, bright penlight that can be easily cleaned, has accurate color rendition, has a pocket clip and runs on cheap and easily obtained batteries, is very useful. 

The disposable penlights we used to get from the drug reps are almost useless, since they are so dim. A larger, heavier, or knurled flashlight drags down the pocket of your scrubs or digs into your flesh.


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## Caligvla (Apr 5, 2008)

Tachikoma said:


> Wakarimashita



Nihongo wakarimasuka?


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## Tachikoma (Apr 5, 2008)

Only a few words, but I think we're OT here


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## lumafist (Apr 5, 2008)

Paladin said:


> Paladin


 
none of those are kubotan sized....
thats a koppo in your pic..


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## Kraid (Apr 6, 2008)

Anyone know of a website or a book that instructs in proper kubaton usage?


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## stitch_paradox (Apr 6, 2008)

Kraid said:


> Anyone know of a website or a book that instructs in proper kubaton usage?




I suggest you go to a real martial arts school. Websites and books are cool, but not as close as the real thing. If your going to use anything (in this matter a light) as a weapon, then you should practice or spar with it everyday with a real person. Do this until you get really accustomed to it that it feels like it's a part of your body. Kubotan is a weapon of accuracy, it will be useless or uneffective unless you know here to hit or strike precisely. 

IMO, the best light size for a kubotan is a mini Maglite, but with a rounded or pointed tailcap.


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## lumafist (Apr 6, 2008)

Kraid said:


> Anyone know of a website or a book that instructs in proper kubaton usage?


 

there is tons of info on the web if you google....

EDIT: search for pressure points as to give you an idea of usage..


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## SureAddicted (Apr 6, 2008)

hi MGLloyd.
I really don't think that pen light would make an ideal kubaton. The clip looks like it would be uncomfortable while holding it as a kubaton. Secondly, the caps on either end (bezel and tailcap) looks like it would break off if you force it hard enough on anything. Thirdly... if you were holding it and struck something hard with it, it would slip through your hand. Theres nothing to grip, also no checkering on the body at all. The diameter also looks a bit thin to be held comfortable while wearing gloves or without.

There is no substitute for a kubaton, but that sorta comes close. Just my 2£.

Steve


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## Monocrom (Apr 6, 2008)

stitch_paradox said:


> .... Kubotan is a weapon of accuracy, it will be useless or uneffective unless you know where to hit or strike precisely.
> 
> IMO, the best light size for a kubotan is a mini Maglite, but with a rounded or pointed tailcap.


 
You could also use it as a hammer-fist enhancer. Accuracy then becomes less of an issue.

I agree about the Mini-Maglite. Maglite will never emphasize it, but it's no coincidence that the 2AA Mini-Mag makes an ideal kubaton.


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## phreeflow (Apr 6, 2008)

MGLloyd....have you ever looked at a 2xAA Fenix L2D Q5 as a possible Kubaton? I would think that it's very similar in size to a real kubaton and extremely bright as well. 

BTW: what are the dimensions of the penlight?


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## MGLloyd (Apr 6, 2008)

SureAddicted said:


> hi MGLloyd.
> I really don't think that pen light would make an ideal kubaton. The clip looks like it would be uncomfortable while holding it as a kubaton. Secondly, the caps on either end (bezel and tailcap) looks like it would break off if you force it hard enough on anything. Thirdly... if you were holding it and struck something hard with it, it would slip through your hand. Theres nothing to grip, also no checkering on the body at all. The diameter also looks a bit thin to be held comfortable while wearing gloves or without.
> 
> There is no substitute for a kubaton, but that sorta comes close. Just my 2£.
> ...



Since I no longer work in a law enforcement role, I suspect that the opportunity to use this penlight as a kubaton is low. Since I am now a middle-aged, upper middle class executive who does not commit crimes, take drugs, drink to excess or hang out in places where such activities take place, I balance the risk of self-defense and my environment. And when I did use a kubaton in an enforcement role, it was almost always as a low profile tool for joint locks and pressure points to gain compliance with my commands. I rarely, if ever, used it as a fist load or flail, since I had an ASP collapsible baton for heavy-duty impact use. So impact strength was of minimal concern to me. With that being said, I often trained people on using improvised tools as an ad-hoc kubaton, tools such as pens, felt markers, flashlights, wooden dowels, metal rods and the like. I used to give people a demonstration on taking down an intoxicated person using a # 2 pencil and a wrist lock. With proper technique, the pencil does not break, and you can get the subject on the ground and in position for handcuffing in short order. The key is to apply pressure on the pencil at a point upon which the wrist bones are supporting the pencil. 

Is this penlight, or for that matter, any flashlight, as good a kubaton as my Monadnock models? No, they are not. But it will do just fine in a pinch, and since I cannot take a kubotan in a government building, it gives me options. And if it breaks, at $ 7 USD, I can easily replace it. 

If you, or anyone, has any other suggestions on suitable flashlights for this purpose, I would appreciate any comments. The Streamlight Stylus Pro, which is new on the market, looks very interesting.


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## MGLloyd (Apr 6, 2008)

phreeflow said:


> MGLloyd....have you ever looked at a 2xAA Fenix L2D Q5 as a possible Kubaton? I would think that it's very similar in size to a real kubaton and extremely bright as well.
> 
> BTW: what are the dimensions of the penlight?



I have looked at the Fenix for this role and in fact own a couple of the AA models. For my purposes and carry environment, which may not be similar to anyone else, I have found that just about any AA flashlight is too heavy and too large in diameter for me. Again bear in mind that I am looking for something I can carry everywhere and everytime in business attire. Carrying too much bulk and weight in suit pants or dress slacks is uncomfortable and looks odd. 

However, I am quite fond of my Fenix flashlights as illumination tools.


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## MGLloyd (Apr 6, 2008)

Monocrom said:


> You could also use it as a hammer-fist enhancer. Accuracy then becomes less of an issue.
> 
> I agree about the Mini-Maglite. Maglite will never emphasize it, but it's no coincidence that the 2AA Mini-Mag makes an ideal kubaton.



The AA Mini-Mag does make an ideal kubaton if your carry method allows for the weight and size.


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## MGLloyd (Apr 6, 2008)

You know, I had forgotten to mention. Prior to finding the Garrity LED penlight, the flashlights that came closest to meeting my needs for weight, size and a kubotan form factor were a variety of xenon or LED dive lights by Underwater Kinetics, Streamlight or Pelican. Most of them were double N cells but a few of them were double AAA cells. They either had a single 5 mm LED or two to three 5 mm LEDs. I especially liked the water-resistance, tough plastic construction and fluorescent colors. 

The UK AAA eLed was very nice for this purpose, but boy was that light dim. The Garrity LED penlight is much brighter than any of the LED dive lights that I tried. If anyone knows of a dive light that takes two AAA cells in a kubotan form factor but has a half-watt LED, please let me know. Now that I think about it, the Streamlight Stylus Pro, in a dive light format, would be very close to what I would be looking for. I do have a fondness for LED lights for the battery and bulb life.


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## SureAddicted (Apr 6, 2008)

MGLloyd, you do bring up some valid points. I totally agree with you about using anything at your disposal. Having a kubaton isn't always ideal as you pointed out, entering government buildings, etc. Having a pen. pencil, keys, torch, etc at your disposal, one can do a lot of damage provided you have the training behind you. I do have a ASP collapsible baton I use for LE work, but its not something you can effectively EDC as a civilian.

Anyone who knows how to properly throw a punch, would also know that at the point of impact you back off a little so you don't break your hand. Using a torch or something that will act as a fist load would lessen the severity caused to ones hand. I myself have had extensive martial arts training as well as weapons training, and I understand the value of having something basic as a torch or pen to use for self defense purposes. As long as you understand that a penlight isn't the most ideal weapon one can carry, it could also get you out of trouble. 

A torch that you can use as a kubaton and a fist load would be a step up. A SureFire E2D fits perfectly into this role, if you have large hands you mite need to look elsewhere.

Steve


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## MGLloyd (Apr 6, 2008)

An improvised kubaton that you can take anywhere with you is a pencil-type tire air pressure gauge. And as an added benefit, as a serious bicyclist, I am always checking the pressure in my tires....


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## Mdinana (Apr 6, 2008)

SureAddicted said:


> hi MGLloyd.
> 
> 
> There is no substitute for a kubaton, but that sorta comes close. Just my 2£.
> ...


 
Wow! oo: That's either a really valuable opinion, or the value of the dollar just skyrocketed!!


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## lumafist (Apr 6, 2008)

Well put MGloyd...!

Did someone suggest Streamlights "batonlite"...?
That is what I used back in the days at work when i needed something in between baton and verbak commands working LE....:thumbsup:


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## Monocrom (Apr 6, 2008)

MGLloyd said:


> The AA Mini-Mag does make an ideal kubaton if your carry method allows for the weight and size.


 
Carried upright, next to a wallet in the back pants pocket works well. Just be careful when sitting down. I've had my old Mini-Mag accidentally twist itself on a few times in my back pocket. The Mini-Mag pen clip that is sold seperately eliminates that problem. But might make the light a bit uncomfortable to hold.


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## jbosman1013 (Apr 6, 2008)

why is it every time I try to post a pic something goes wrong






ok here it is


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## Blue72 (Apr 6, 2008)

I am sure a kubaton can be a great tool.

However, I do not like to rely on pain for self defense. When the shtf adrenaline kicks in making the person less sensitive to pain and what if you are against someone who is all pumped up on drugs or alcohol.

I also train in grappling and believe I can be more effective without a kubotan than with one.


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## Monocrom (Apr 6, 2008)

dd61999 said:


> I also train in grappling and believe I can be more effective without a kubotan than with one.


 
You want to grapple with someone who might be armed? or with a deranged homeless man? 

Grappling doesn't work too well against multiple attackers. With a kubaton, you can strike, create an opening, then exit quickly.


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## Justin Case (Apr 6, 2008)

#1, it is Kubotan, after Tak Kubota. Not kubaton.

#2, if you are skilled enough to pull of one of the pain compliance holds using a Kubotan in a real-world dynamic fight, then you probably didn't need it in the first place.

Monocrom has it right. Use the Kubotan for strikes.

The AA Mini Maglite is basically the same size as a Kubotan. If you want more light output, a SureFire L4 also fits the bill. Really though, all you need is any sturdy light that is long enough to extend past your hand.


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## Blue72 (Apr 7, 2008)

Monocrom said:


> You want to grapple with someone who might be armed? or with a deranged homeless man?
> 
> Grappling doesn't work too well against multiple attackers. With a kubaton, you can strike, create an opening, then exit quickly.


 
I rather not use a kubaton than use one on someone who is armed. 

I train with multiple attacks all the time. you might have the wrong conception of grappling.

However, in the real world nothing works well with multiple attackers except maybe a trained person with a firearm.

I am not saying kubaton can not be effective. I just believe I can be more effective without one than with one and I know I am not the only one in the martial arts community that believes this.


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## Fallingwater (Apr 7, 2008)

Tachikoma said:


> IMHO the best flashlight to use as a Kubotan (or Kubaton, there are 2 spells accepted) is the Inova X5, perfect size, weight AND resistence


Actually the only good way of spelling it is "Kubotan". "Kubaton" is erroneous; I believe many people associate the "baton" word to the function of the gadget in question and spell it that way.


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## Monocrom (Apr 7, 2008)

Fallingwater said:


> Actually the only good way of spelling it is "Kubotan". "Kubaton" is erroneous; I believe many people associate the "baton" word to the function of the gadget in question and spell it that way.


 
More likely, it's due to how the word is pronounced. Ku - Baton.


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## litho123 (Apr 7, 2008)

I think the Fenix L2D-CE Q5 would make a nice kubaton. I've added a rubber sleeve to mine to give me better gripping surface. I'll try and post pics later.

• Uses two 1.5V AA ( Alkaline, NiMH, Lithium ) battery (not included), inexpensive and widely available 
• 14.7cm (L) x 2.1cm (D) or 5.8in (L) x 0.8in (D)
• Made of aircraft-grade aluminum 
... etc.


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## Styerman (Apr 8, 2008)

Subject dear to my heart ! First off , unless you are a LEO , forget the pain compliance / come along stuff . Just go for breakage and CNS disruption . Stick with good old gross motor hammer fist stuff . You default to your lowest level of skill under stress . Hit all the targets the LE oriented manuals tell you to avoid . Dont kid yourself , unless you are hitting a target like the back of a hand , it is a less rather than non lethal force option .

Of stuff readily available , I prefer the Streamlite Stylus pro ( the AAA big bro of the Stylus ) , and the Surefire A2 . The minimag ( either LED or incan ) is too slippery , and hard to do a Kopo type tether on . 

Stay away from TIC/TID devices . They turn an object that is welcome everywhere into a potential edged weapon ! CNS disruption ( say a hammerfist blow to the center of the face plate ) isnt enhanced much by laceration .

Chris


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## dim (Apr 8, 2008)

While its tech is showing its age (Luxeon III), the Gerber LX3 is a really nice, well built, TOUGH, 3xAA flashlight that WILL inflict bruises.

The LX3 produces about 50 lumens with it's "general usage" type beam with bright spill.

I've reviewed the LX3 HERE and discuss its usage HERE.
The LX3 is also reviewed at flashlightreviews.com HERE.

73
dim


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