# ArcMania + 5w + TurboHead = Excellent!



## rmacias (Nov 19, 2005)

I finally received my custom ArcMania 5w tower module all the way from Japan. The module drops right in and works great with (2) RCR123a batteries. This has made my favorite light (Surefire L5) even better....thanks Mike. Here are the pics:

The 5w Module






And it's new home.....I threw in the Fenix L1P for size comparison.





I will try to get some beamshots for you guys tonight.

RJM


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## TrueBlue (Nov 19, 2005)

I'd love to see your reaction when you do the beam shots. Watch out for the recoil.


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## Kiessling (Nov 19, 2005)

Looks stunning !
Do you have details about the driver --> possible Vin / buck or boost / drive current?
And what about heat in that small package? Any ecperience?
bernie


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## rmacias (Nov 19, 2005)

Kiessling said:


> Looks stunning !
> Do you have details about the driver --> possible Vin / buck or boost / drive current?
> And what about heat in that small package? Any ecperience?
> bernie


 
I'm not sure which driver it has but its being driven at 1 amp. The operating voltage is 7.4v-16v and the Lux V is a WX1S bin.

RJM


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## TrueBlue (Nov 20, 2005)

SuperDownConverter 1000mA is in the TH module. The newer SDC1000 operates from 7-ish to 16V. It is not reverse protected but we all have common sense and don't put batteries in backwards, right?


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## Trashman (Nov 20, 2005)

I think Kiessling is sold on this one!


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## rmacias (Nov 20, 2005)

Here are the money shots. The house in the far distance is at 130 yards measured with my Nikon rangefinder. 

I'm sure my neighbors really enjoyed me playing with my lights.





This is the baseline photo.





Here is the N1 lamp running on 2 Surefire CR123 batteries (6v). 





And here is the 5w Tower Module running on 2 RCR123's (8.6v). I'm not sure why the pic came out so red.





RJM


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## rmacias (Nov 20, 2005)

TrueBlue said:


> I'd love to see your reaction when you do the beam shots. Watch out for the recoil.


 
The module has some kick but not as bad as the recoil from my Desert Eagle .50AE.


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## Bullzeyebill (Nov 20, 2005)

rmacias, that is bright. Possibly the 5w is as bright as an N2, or brighter. Do you have an N2 for comparison?

Bill


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## TrueBlue (Nov 20, 2005)

The TH Lux V has a nice throw beam. No one is going to be sneaking around the sides with that bright spill light. Very nice beam shots.


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## rmacias (Nov 20, 2005)

Bullzeyebill said:


> rmacias, that is bright. Possibly the 5w is as bright as an N2, or brighter. Do you have an N2 for comparison?
> 
> Bill


 
Sorry...I don't have an N2 for comparison but I'm sure the module would give it a run for its money.

RJM


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## wquiles (Nov 20, 2005)

Nice photos 

Congrats on your new adquisition :naughty: 

Will


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## rmacias (Nov 20, 2005)

wquiles said:


> Nice photos
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
Thanks, I can't wait to take it with me on my hunting trip to Mexico next month in the Chihuahua mountains. It should work nicely for finding my way back to camp in the dark.





RJM


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## Kiessling (Nov 20, 2005)

Trashman said:


> I think Kiessling is sold on this one!



 ... almost.
There's still the heat that makes me worry ... at 1000mA to a LuxV there's quite a lot of it ... and availability of those isn't that great either!

bernie


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## wquiles (Nov 20, 2005)

Kiessling said:


> ... almost.
> There's still the heat that makes me worry ... at 1000mA to a LuxV there's quite a lot of it ... and availability of those isn't that great either!
> 
> bernie



In my own personal experience, yes, heat is a problem, but mostly with the shock-isolated bezels as the "poor" module has no way to get the heat to the body and your hand. I have a WX1T on a DB1000 and I was getting the module to get very hot with almost no heat to the KT4 head. I was not until I used some thermal AA in the negative contact spring and in the matching body section that I was able to finally get some of this heat to be "passed" on to the body.

I don't own a non-shock-isolated bezel, but if the reflector is in direct contact with the metal head (instead of floating, and not touching anything as in the shock-isolated bezels), then the situation should be better 

On my M6 (with a KT4, shock-isolated bezel), I had to re-aply some of the thermal paste to get heat transfer to the M6's body. The only bad thing is that then you change to a "normal" incandecent lamp you do have to clean the body of the host so that you don't get the thermal paste on everything!

Will


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## rmacias (Nov 20, 2005)

Kiessling said:


> ... almost.
> There's still the heat that makes me worry ... at 1000mA to a LuxV there's quite a lot of it ... and availability of those isn't that great either!
> 
> bernie


 
I don't think heat will be much of a problem. There is enough wall thickness and surface area for decent thermal transfer. The module diameter is a friction fit with the KT1 head, it doesn't just slide in like the N1 lamps. See pics below:

The KT1 has plenty of mass to it.





I have to wiggle the module back and forth in order to seat it...it's a snug fit.





RJM


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## wquiles (Nov 20, 2005)

From experience, even in the case of a non-shock-isolated reflector such as yours, it would still be wise to use a "little" AA thermal compound to aid in thermal transfer from the module to the head 

Will


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## Kiessling (Nov 20, 2005)

Thanx for the great pics!
Does the head get warm or hot then?
Really interesting ... now that I have a KT1 on my way ... 
bernie


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## dbedit (Nov 20, 2005)

Congrats on the aquisition, I agree with your title
I LOVE mine.....I still am overwhelmed with the quality of this light the spill is great and the thow is more than impressive. I like this light so much I am going for number 2 to use for new truck light. This round I a going for a C3-HA to add a bit of scratch resitance and two pila 150's making it cheaper to run. Now I just need a DC 150 recharging system to keep extra batteries recharged.


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## TrueBlue (Nov 20, 2005)

I’ve had the Turbo Head module for a while now. I haven’t had any problems with overheating. When I first used the light I was actually scared of using the head because it didn’t seem to be getting hot enough. The head would only get warm and I thought the heat wasn’t being extracted. I took the head apart and looked the setup over. I noticed that the mass of the head is very big. Any heat build up is extracted and dispersed throughout the head and body of the light. The head has a lot of surface area to disperse any excess heat. I use the light without fear now.

CPF member dbedit generously donated an infrared thermometer that I use to measure the heat of a light. I’m still refining my procedure so bare with me while I learn. I took heat measurements on three points on my light for 5 minutes. I spaced the temperature checks 30 seconds apart. Then I quickly opened the light and took a temperature check of the module.

Here is the temperature of the light at three points for 5 minutes. The first point it the head of the light at what I would assume would be the thinnest part; the scallops of the head. Point two is at the base of the head where the converter is located. Point three is the body of the light just below the head.

000 seconds: 72.5/ 72.5/ 73.0
030 seconds: 74.0/ 73.0/ 73.5
060 seconds: 76.0/ 73.5/ 73.5
090 seconds: 79.0/ 75.5/ 74.5
120 seconds: 81.0/ 75.5/ 75.5
150 seconds: 83.0/ 81.0/ 77.0
180 seconds: 84.5/ 81.5/ 78.0
210 seconds: 86.5/ 83.0/ 75.0
240 seconds: 88.0/ 84.0/ 75.5
270 seconds: 89.5/ 87.0/ 77.0
300 seconds: 91.0/ 89.5/ 77.0

At the end of the heat run the Turbo Head was much cooler than other heads I have tested. The Turbo Head temperature difference was a very cool 17 degrees increase. Other lights run about 29 degrees hotter at the end of their tests. When I quickly tested the module temperature after the heat run it was only 88.0 degrees. The module-can is quickly wicking the heat away from the Lux V and the converter

The heat is efficiently being wicked away from the module because of the module-can large surface contact to the head of the light. Then the large mass of the head pulls and disperses the heat. I have to trust ARC mania for getting the mod built right.


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## Kiessling (Nov 20, 2005)

Thanx !
It is not a problem of trust  ... it is because I like "dumb" lights where I don't have to think about damaging or misusing them ... and there included is he possibility of long burntimes up to 1 hour or more in continious-on ... and I don't know if ArcMania had that in mind when building that little marvel.

Besides ... I guess it will take a while to find one as they are not exactly to be found on B/S/T in dozens ... :green:

bernie

EDIT: or does he build on-demand   ?


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## TrueBlue (Nov 20, 2005)

Maybe trust was the wrong word for me to use. ARC mania really makes first class and tested 'toys.'

ARC mania does customize his builds...if he can find the time to put one together. Send him a PM and find out. Try one and if you don't like it then I wouldn't mind owning a _second_ TH module.

How does this sound, "I have to _appreciate_ ARC mania for getting the mod built right. :laughing:


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## jtice (Nov 20, 2005)

Why cant the Turboheads be cheaper 

I have had a sink for one forever, 
and would love one on my L5 body, 
but I am way to cheap to pay $70 for an empty head lol.

Has anyone got a shot of this mod compared to a Aleph3?
I would love to see both 3W and 5W versions of each compared.

~John


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## TrueBlue (Nov 20, 2005)

Does this picture help?

*Edit:* I forgot to add the Aleph has a Downboy 917.

*Edit: Edit:* I do have an Aleph 3 with a Lux V running a Downboy 750. I'll have to get a beam shot of it tonight.

*Too many edits:* I found the Aleph 3/Lux V beam shot in the basement level of my computer.


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## Bullzeyebill (Nov 20, 2005)

I would still like to see an N2, or NM15 comparison. I am impressed with the obvious bright spill of the 5w Turbo.

Bill


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## wquiles (Nov 20, 2005)

TrueBlue :kewlpics:

:goodjob:

No question here that the sidespill of the 2.5" TH wins this one 

Will


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## Kiessling (Nov 20, 2005)

Thanx for the pics! :thumbsup:
It seems that because of the relatively shallow reflector of the KT1 most of the light is escaping as spill ... bright spill ...
I am thinking of begging for a 700mA version ... :thinking: ... the fact that this thing is non-destructive and can just be exchanged for a N2 lamp is so cool ...
bernie


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## jtice (Nov 20, 2005)

Thanks alot TrueBlue,

Its a shame the TH is an X bin, makes it alittle unfair against the W bin.

Does alot better at focusing the 5Wer.

Now, if only a Wiz2 could run a 5Wer.
hmm, is the BB driver the only option for a 5Wer running off Pilas etc.?

~John


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## Kiessling (Nov 20, 2005)

You have the DB and the SDC for Buck Drivers and the BB or NBBx2 for boost drivers, but I think the NBBx2 isn't exactly availyble right now.
bernie


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## jtice (Nov 20, 2005)

NBBx2???????

First I have heard of this,
details details 

~John


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## Kiessling (Nov 20, 2005)

It is the driver that can be found in the HD45-5W ... soon I hope. But I think this would lead us too far off-topic and I don't know anything more than that except that it seems to work  ...
bernie


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## LEDcandle (Nov 21, 2005)

TrueBlue said:


> At the end of the heat run the Turbo Head was much cooler than other heads I have tested. The Turbo Head temperature difference was a very cool 17 degrees increase. Other lights run about 29 degrees hotter at the end of their tests. When I quickly tested the module temperature after the heat run it was only 88.0 degrees. The module-can is quickly wicking the heat away from the Lux V and the converter



What kind of temperatures should be cause for alarm?


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## TrueBlue (Nov 21, 2005)

The top limit of the Luxeon is 120 degrees C. If the head of the light is too hot to touch then you better start worrying! I can't imagine the Turbo Head mod coming close to 120 degrees C.


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## jtice (Nov 21, 2005)

Two things can make the head stay cool...
The Head could be disapating the heat really well.
Or, the heat could not be transferring from the sink to the head properly.

How tight does the "shaft" of the sink fit into the head?
Some thermal goo between the sink and head would help it greatly.

~John


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## LEDcandle (Nov 23, 2005)

Thanks Trueblue. Is driving a Lux V at 1 amp a little too high? I'm not too sure about electrical stuff but I thought only the Lux III could be pushed to 1 amp, although recommended to be driven at 700 ma, as with the Lux V. 

Is it because there is additional heatsinking that it can be overdriven safely? I assume heat is only one of the factors and that over-current will still damage an LED. Or is it purely heat that destroys an LED? 

Is this module destined to live a shorter life or am I missing something?


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## TrueBlue (Nov 23, 2005)

We’ve been overdriving Lux III emitters for a while now. Those emitters are still working. The secret to the long life of the overdriven Lux III is to keep a good heat sink snuggled up close to the emitter. The Lux V is a bigger version of the Lux I emitter times four. If the lessons learned from the Lux III about heat sinking the emitter when it is overdriven than the Lux V would follow the same principles except on a larger scale. We really haven’t tried the Lux V emitters enough and I really like the beam, especially the brightness of the emitter. Back on track now. If we can overdrive the Lux III safely why not try the principles on a larger scale Lux V emitter?

I can imagine why people have not used the Lux V more. It is simply more expensive, initially, to buy a Lux V emitter. It is cheaper to buy a couple of Lux III emitters. A good Lux V is cheaper to put in a light and the output is as much or more than a couple of overdriven Lux III emitters. Then when the Lux V emitter is overdriven the output runs away from the smaller Lux III emitters. We simply haven’t experimented with enough Lux V emitters to learn what its boundaries are.

I actually had a practical thought about clustering Lux V emitters. The Surefire M6 has a Turbo Head and runs six CR123A batteries in a parallel setup. A cluster of three Lux V emitters would be interesting. The M6 would have the power to run a cluster of Lux V emitters. Or possibly using a side emitter Lux V in a Turbo Head would give a different beam pattern. I think I might give a Lux V side emitter in a Turbo Head a try.

Overdriving the Lux V is a pioneering effort. We are going into new territory now. My overdriven Lux V is very reliable and the big heat sink helps a lot.

Of course I’d like to remind everyone of the disclaimer when pioneering a light …YMMV!


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## LEDcandle (Nov 23, 2005)

I just hope the mileage is a looooooong road before needing to refill 

Have you seen 3rd_shift's multiple Lux V mod?
http://flashlight-forums.com/index.php?topic=924.0

Guess an emitter setup will be different. It would be cool to see what you come out with


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## rmacias (Nov 23, 2005)

LEDcandle said:


> I just hope the mileage is a looooooong road before needing to refill
> 
> Have you seen 3rd_shift's multiple Lux V mod?
> http://flashlight-forums.com/index.php?topic=924.0
> ...


 
And we are worried about heat with the 5W module...sheesh...that is nothing compared to the Quad Lux V in a Mag setup.  

RJM


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## MSaxatilus (Nov 23, 2005)

Believe it or not, the heat build up is not as bad as you'd think. It does run warm, but not so bad that you can't hold the light. I think an KL4 runs hotter.

MSax


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## 270winchester (Nov 23, 2005)

I would totally for testing out the limits of the LuxV but their cost and low rated life even at spec prevents me from doing that, but a W-bin emitter makes any crappy light into a piece of gem...


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## TrueBlue (Nov 24, 2005)

_Whoa!_ Compared to that direct drive Quad lux the TH module would be as cool as a cucumber!


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## Kiessling (Nov 24, 2005)

ARC mania was so kind to make a 700mA version for me (yepp, I am a sissy  ) ... and I am really looking forward to test it out ... oo:
bernie


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## seattlite (Nov 24, 2005)

Kiessling said:


> ARC mania was so kind to make a 700mA version for me (yepp, I am a sissy  ) ... and I am really looking forward to test it out ... oo:
> bernie


What's the LED BIN code?


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## Kiessling (Nov 24, 2005)

YX0S 







NOT!
Just kidding ... :nana:

It will be a WX1S ... he said.
I guess I should have asked for an X-bin upgrade but I was just glad he accepted to build the module at 700mA that I dod not dare to pester him any more ... 

bernie


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## wquiles (Nov 24, 2005)

Kiessling said:


> ARC mania was so kind to make a 700mA version for me (yepp, I am a sissy  ) ... and I am really looking forward to test it out ... oo:
> bernie



No you are not. At 700mA it will probably give you most of the brightness with even less heat and much longer life - good decision on your part 

Will


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## MSaxatilus (Nov 24, 2005)

> YX0S



Oh my god, you just gave me a heart attack. Don't do that Kiessling.

:nana:


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## NewBie (Nov 24, 2005)

TrueBlue said:


> I’ve had the Turbo Head module for a while now. I haven’t had any problems with overheating. When I first used the light I was actually scared of using the head because it didn’t seem to be getting hot enough. The head would only get warm and I thought the heat wasn’t being extracted. I took the head apart and looked the setup over. I noticed that the mass of the head is very big. Any heat build up is extracted and dispersed throughout the head and body of the light. The head has a lot of surface area to disperse any excess heat. I use the light without fear now.
> 
> CPF member dbedit generously donated an infrared thermometer that I use to measure the heat of a light. I’m still refining my procedure so bare with me while I learn. I took heat measurements on three points on my light for 5 minutes. I spaced the temperature checks 30 seconds apart. Then I quickly opened the light and took a temperature check of the module.
> 
> ...



Question-
I see the Turbo Head itself only runs warm. This could be due to two things. One is cooling to the outside air/hand, but the other is poor thermal transfer from the module to the Turbo Head. Could you take measurements on the module also? (especially up by the Luxeon)

Just thought I'd also ask to be sure. Your measurements are in Fahrenheit and not Celcius, right?


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## Billson (Nov 25, 2005)

NewBie said:


> Question-
> Just thought I'd also ask to be sure. Your measurements are in Fahrenheit and not Celcius, right?



I sure hope so or you could use that light to boil some eggs.


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## LEDcandle (Nov 25, 2005)

Billson said:


> I sure hope so or you could use that light to boil some eggs.



In TrueBlue's reply to me, he says 120 deg Celsius is the top limit, so I'm thinking his measurements are in Celsius. 88 is still pretty far from 120.

The module does get very hot after a while (for touching bare handed that is). It really does feel like 88 deg celsius. If its fahrenheit, it should be as searing hot as it is...

I could be mistaken tho...


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## Billson (Nov 25, 2005)

If 88 degrees is in Fahrenheit, it's roughly equivalent to 31 degrees Celcius and that's actually cooler than our typical weather where I live. Water boils at 100C in case there's any confusion.


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## Kiessling (Nov 25, 2005)

If it were Celcius he would live in a damm hot environment ... if you look at point 000 sec ... :devil:

bernie

MSax ...


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## LEDcandle (Jan 9, 2006)

Finally got my KT today and tried out the Lux V module. :wow: as attested to by other owners. 

However, I noticed a weird thing. Running on 2 x 17500 (ard 3.77v each), the output on my milk carton litebox was 875 and I tried 3 x R123a (ard 3.7 - 3.9v mixed) and output was only 715. 

By my litebox measurements, 875 = 232 lumens approx and 715 is only 190 approx. Thought the convertor was supposed to handle 7-16v and convert it to 1000 mah output? :thinking:

Why the varying results from diff battery types and why lower output when voltage is higher?


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## Action (Jan 9, 2006)

I've been running Arc Mania's 5W setup in my 9P+A19+SRTH. My particular module is a 700mA XX1T (didn't want to deal with the heat of 1A and longer runtime was a particular interest for this light). It is bright and will undoubtedly have some serious runtime, however vs. an MN60 bulb (another light on hand is a 9P+A19+KT+MN60), the MN60 absolutely kills it in terms of both total output and throw. The old incandescent bulb, if runtime is not an issue, is mighty hard to beat. The amazing thing is that an MN61 would give even greater output...


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## wquiles (Jan 9, 2006)

Action said:


> It is bright and will undoubtedly have some serious runtime, however vs. an MN60 bulb (another light on hand is a 9P+A19+KT+MN60), the MN60 absolutely kills it in terms of both total output and throw. The old incandescent bulb, if runtime is not an issue, is mighty hard to beat. The amazing thing is that an MN61 would give even greater output...


An X bin will output between 192 and 250 lumens, at the die. Once you account for loses you will get less out the front - I would expect 200 luments or less out the front. 

The MN60 is about 250 Lumens out the front of the light, and the MN61 is about 350 lumens out the front. At least to me, it makes sense that the MN60 and MN61 will will much brigther than the X bin LED module 

Will


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## TrueBlue (Jan 9, 2006)

Many people make an LED light sound like a horsepower race. It is not. Of course a person can easily find a brighter incandescent light everywhere. For sheer brightness it is a given that LED lights are in their infancy can cannot hope to go against the fully matured incandescent in sheer brightness yet. At least not last year’s emitters. Emitters have other advantages.

We are still learning the boundaries of the emitters. Hot wires are variations on a theme.

People who promote incandescent use downplay the advantage of emitters over hot wires. It is not just about brightness. The LED emitter is more durable compared to a hot wire. The beam tint is white on an LED and stays very white through a wide power range. Emitters can use a wide range of power. LED emitters do not need to dump a lot of power into a light to be bright. LED emitters are durable. Hot wires are fragile. Hot wire lights dump a lot of wasted heat in the air. LED emitters can run cool and efficient. That is a lot going for emitters. Hot wire fans downplay the emitter advantages.

LED lights are closing the gap in brightness. CPF members are experimenting and learning the LED emitter. Look at how much brighter emitters have gotten in one year. 

The brightness gap is closing. Incandescent lights matured long ago. I’ve seen ideas of the future. The brightness gap is going to narrow further. And the emitter will still be just as durable as the emitters of years past. The original emitters are still in their original lights.

Two years ago no one would dare to even compare a lowly LED to a 2 x D light. LED emitters have exceeded that output long ago.

It is not a horsepower race yet. The solid-state emitter started as a 4 cylinder and is coming to life as a V-6 engine. It is getting better and could be compared to a small V-8 this year. The big block V-8, incandescent, is still holding its own but not gaining. The emitter is catching up in power. I think the next two years will show increased improvement in emitter brightness. And people are still tweaking to get the most out of the underdog emitters.

Emitters are looking brighter in the future. You see I have this special a crystal ball with a window to the future and it says the emitter will…

I'm very happy with my Turbo Head mod. My 2 x D Maglite incandescent stays at home now.


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## Kiessling (Jan 9, 2006)

Also ... the LED-module "looses" very much light as it rides high in a shallow reflector ... which is the reason for the big and bright corona you get. The hotspot is tight but not excessively strong. The incan bulb however does not have this "disadvantage" as it puts out its light in all directions and not only forward like the LED ... so more light is collimated into a throwing beam.

I also do have a 700mA WX1S module ... and for me it is more like a very generous flood with a throwing spot to it. Very interesting beam for lighting up a whole backyard and spotting some things further away, but if pure throw is what you want, the LED module is not your ticket.

bernie

P.S.: I let mine run for prolonged times and found that due to th etight fit the heat seems to be transfered to the head as it gets warm. So I am less worried about this now, especially since mine runs at 700mA. I really like this thing ... nice alternative to the incans.


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## LEDcandle (Jan 9, 2006)

Yep, like what Trueblue and Bernie said. 

This is no doubt a very well-built and useful module (and bright!). But the diff batt combinations producing diff output results still confuses me. :thinking: It should be regulated by the convertor.

2 x 17670 or 2 x R123as give the same output (measured at 1100ma). Once I change to 3 x R123as, the output drops (measured 730 ma). 

This could be a 'good thing' too (assuming convertor isn't spoilt in some way), meaning I can have a choice of output by changing the batt combinations


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## LEDcandle (Jan 10, 2006)

Anyway, here is a runtime test of my module on 2 x R123as 700mah protected.
Batt voltage = 4.08v each
Current = 1090 ma

Temp taken was at the external collar area. The probe of my thermometer was stuck on to the flashlight collar with tape. The entre light gets very warm so I believe its whisking away heat well. 






_ If you notice, after 30mins the figures are no longer in 5 mins increment, although the graph (MS Excel :sigh seems to visually represent them in equal distance. I was trying to tinker with the options but couldn't get the X-axis to visually represent the correct spacing :thinking_

At 37min, the PTC kicked in and BOTH batts were at 0.0v when out of the light. Does 37min sound about right for an overdriven Lux V on 2 x R123as? I will be testing 2 x 17500 later, I'd expect another 1/3 runtime based on mah capacity ratings.


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## LEDcandle (Jan 10, 2006)

17500 test :-

Batt voltage = 4.09v each
Current = 1010 ma
End voltage = 3.2v, 2.83v






The light shut of completely at 66m30s and I thought the prot circuit had kicked in but the 2 batts still registered voltage. Together they made 6v, which theoretically should still power the light since it can run on 2 x primary 123as. Maybe it has something to do with the PTC.


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## cy (Jan 10, 2006)

rmacias said:


> I don't think heat will be much of a problem. There is enough wall thickness and surface area for decent thermal transfer. The module diameter is a friction fit with the KT1 head, it doesn't just slide in like the N1 lamps. See pics below:
> 
> The KT1 has plenty of mass to it.
> 
> ...



be EXTRA careful wiggling back and forth. note how ground wire is attached to spring. tiny guage wire is used with almost no extra length provided for movement. 

slightest movement from spring will break this tiny wire/spring connection.

unfortunately my turbo module was more than a friction fit and jammed in my M6 reflector instead of dropping in. naturally I twisted module to break free. As you can see from the pic, it's hard to grab module without also grabbing spring.

this twisting motion broke the tiny ground wire to spring connection and broke internal connection to board :green:

my turbo module's shaft is tapered, instead of a uniform diameter causing jam in M6 reflector.

anyone else trying turbo module in M6 reflector instead of KT1 head. internal diameter may be different. All of the surefire bulbs for M6/M4/M3 I've measured have been uniform in size. don't have a N1 to measure.


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## LEDcandle (Jan 10, 2006)

Can it be fixed??


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## jtice (Jan 10, 2006)

You guys make me so gelous with these THs. 

I know there are quite a few shots spread around CPF of these,
but was there ever a shot of a 3W and 5W version next to each other?

From what I have seen, I think its best to use this setup with a 5Wer ?
Sence something like the A3 head will throw just as well, if not better with a 3W vs the 3W in the TH ?

I still dont have a TH, and love the look of them,
just never could get myself to spend $75+ on an empty head.
I have one of these sinks though, and always wanted to use it.
Do these modules work in any other SF heads?

~John


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## TrueBlue (Jan 10, 2006)

I've tried the SFTH module in a Surefire M6. The combination worked as good as in the SFTH C3 or 6P/9P light.


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## LEDcandle (Jan 10, 2006)

jtice said:


> just never could get myself to spend $75+ on an empty head.
> I have one of these sinks though, and always wanted to use it.
> 
> ~John



C'mon John, you know you can do it :naughty:
It's not "just a head". It's a well-constructed piece of equipment from topdogs Surefire with beautiful stippled reflector and generous diameter of 2.5 inches that will allow you to use your module 

Was there a 3w module made? 
The 5w should be nicer, though it doesn't outthrow a mag due to the reflector being stippled. Still, the throw is no slouch and it gives great spill. 

I doubt I can tell you the get the SRTH (more than double the price) for more throw :laughing:


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## jdriller (Jan 10, 2006)

cy,

Same thing happend to my module. I couldn't get it out of my KT4 on the M4. I twisted it and tore off the ground. I then got upset and filed the module until it fit, then I soldered the ground back on. You must be very careful with the module. It really does throw. It works fine, but I am a little worried about the heatsinking properties of the module. I may have over-filed.


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## cy (Jan 10, 2006)

jdriller said:


> cy,
> 
> Same thing happend to my module. I couldn't get it out of my KT4 on the M4. I twisted it and tore off the ground. I then got upset and filed the module until it fit, then I soldered the ground back on. You must be very careful with the module. It really does throw. It works fine, but I am a little worried about the heatsinking properties of the module. I may have over-filed.


thanks for the feedback. looks like I'm not the only one having problems with turbomodule not fitting correctly. 

seems there is veriances in surefire's turbo heads and M6 reflector's ID. my turbomodule shaft tapers to where TM drops right in 3/4 of the way down, then jams.

mine tore off before I had a chance to light up module. naturally I thought it was DOA :green:

Xbin emitter tested out fine when I applied 700 milliamps from my HP bench power supply to emitter. should not be a big deal to fix. going back with a DB1000 or DB1250 to gain reverse protection.


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## Kiessling (Jan 10, 2006)

Mine is a very tight fit, too. So tight that it rubbed of some material from the KT2 on its way in which I couldn't get out again, at least not all of it. That is why I am leavnig it in there now. 

cy... I gripped mine by the "collar" and it worked fine for me. But yes, the spring and wire seem delicate to me, too.

bernie


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## Kiessling (Jan 10, 2006)

my KT4 (SF M6) seems to have a little bit a looser fit thean the KT2.

However ... I think this type of module absolutely needs this tight contact for heatsinking. Especially when run at 1000mA. But even 700mA is a lot on a LuxV ... needs cooling :devil:

bernie


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## cy (Jan 10, 2006)

Kiessling said:


> Mine is a very tight fit, too. So tight that it rubbed of some material from the KT2 on its way in which I couldn't get out again, at least not all of it. That is why I am leavnig it in there now.
> 
> cy... I gripped mine by the "collar" and it worked fine for me. But yes, the spring and wire seem delicate to me, too.
> 
> bernie


was really hesitant to post any negative info on turbomodule. just didn't want anyone else to break their ground wire. looks like several folks are experiencing simular fits issues. 

with warning pretty simple to fix by sanding down post, if it jams in your particular reflector assembly. otherwise a royal pita, if you don't know it's coming.

going back with a larger gauge wire, possibly a strap like surefire uses with extra length to allow for movement


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## Kiessling (Jan 10, 2006)

I wouldn't call the tight fit a negative thing ... I'd call it an inherent ptoblem with this design. The TM needs heatsinking, and it needs it bad when looking at a LuxV at 1000mA. The only viable way to do this is through tight contact and/or thermal paste. All those who don't want to put in thermal goo will depend on a very tight and even contact of the module with the head, or it will die.
So ... yes, this might be problematic, but for this given design it is a necessity. 
IMHO.

bernie


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## cy (Jan 10, 2006)

Kiessling said:


> I wouldn't call the tight fit a negative thing ... I'd call it an inherent ptoblem with this design. The TM needs heatsinking, and it needs it bad when looking at a LuxV at 1000mA. The only viable way to do this is through tight contact and/or thermal paste. All those who don't want to put in thermal goo will depend on a very tight and even contact of the module with the head, or it will die.
> So ... yes, this might be problematic, but for this given design it is a necessity. IMHO. bernie


totally agree tight fit is desirable, but mine is beyond tight fit. it jams 3/4 of the way down. 

as it turns out I will custom lap barrel to gain a sliding interferance fit with my particular M6 reflector. 

sure would have saved a load of headaches, had I know this in advance.


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## seattlite (Jan 10, 2006)

I have 2 modules made by 2 different individuals, Paul Novarese "tylerdurden"(blue one in picture; WX1S/DB1000), and Mike Jordan "ARC mania"(bare AL; XX1T/custom converter/7.4-12V). I also have an M3T, M6 and a spare KT4. Both modules are a "snug" fit, but, it takes no effort to install and remvoe them from the KT4's.


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## marcdilnutt (Jan 10, 2006)

I have a TH module and managed to pull the ground spring off too, it is a very tight fit. But now i have fixed it and it permanently lives in my M2. It is the best and brightest led torch i have used. I love it!


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## cy (Jan 10, 2006)

marcdilnutt said:


> I have a TH module and managed to pull the ground spring off too, it is a very tight fit. But now i have fixed it and it permanently lives in my M2. It is the best and brightest led torch i have used. I love it!


thanks for posting... 

according to MJ, no one except me has this problem. 

seems I'm not the only one that's broken off the tiny ground lead to spring.


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## wquiles (Jan 10, 2006)

My modules are the ones made by Kiu a long time ago, and I have tried them on 3 different heads and none of them have this problem of being too tight. I use a very light film of thermal paste in my modules, and some more on the bottom of the spring (that contacts the body) so that I have maximum heat transfer to the body 

Will


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## LEDcandle (Jan 10, 2006)

wquiles said:


> My modules are the ones made by Kiu a long time ago, and I have tried them on 3 different heads and none of them have this problem of being too tight. I use a very light film of thermal paste in my modules, and some more on the bottom of the spring (that contacts the body) so that I have maximum heat transfer to the body
> 
> Will



Hi Will,

Mine from Arcmania has no problems too. nice hugging fit but not tight. Used some Arctic Silver 5 too, but daren't apply it too near the LED as I'm afraid the paste will get stuck inside the reflector when pulling out the module.

Can the turbohead be dismantled to clean the reflector? If it can, I can coat the entire module shaft/neck with AS5 and not have to worry too much about the paste dirtying the base of the reflector.


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## rmacias (Jan 10, 2006)

cy said:


> be EXTRA careful wiggling back and forth. note how ground wire is attached to spring. tiny guage wire is used with almost no extra length provided for movement.
> 
> slightest movement from spring will break this tiny wire/spring connection.


 
This is why I remove the adapter collar from the Turbo Head prior to removing the 5w module. I think that's why there is a texured surface on the largest diameter for pulling and twisting from that location.

I too noticed the ground wire was fragile but just thought it was common sense to not be pulling on the spring.

My 5w module is stored separately and is always being removed and installed without problems.

I measured the tower diameter on the 5w module and it's within +/- .00025" from tip to base. That's fairly precise and good enough for me.

RJM


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## wquiles (Jan 10, 2006)

LEDcandle said:


> Can the turbohead be dismantled to clean the reflector? If it can, I can coat the entire module shaft/neck with AS5 and not have to worry too much about the paste dirtying the base of the reflector.


Yes, but the inner ring on the turbohead has some sealant/glue and could be hard to unscrew. I will leave the turbohead alone and just keep using a little AS5 as you are doing now 

Will


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## cy (Jan 10, 2006)

rmacias said:


> This is why I remove the adapter collar from the Turbo Head prior to removing the 5w module. I think that's why there is a texured surface on the largest diameter for pulling and twisting from that location.
> 
> I too noticed the ground wire was fragile but just thought it was common sense to not be pulling on the spring.
> 
> ...


I've measured quite a few Surefire bulbs over this and none measure over .3740 VS xbin module measures .3740 tapering to .3750 near base.

I'm using a calibrated Mitituyo digital 1in mic and is dead on. 

no question some modules are working perfect. but some are oversized and/or reflectors are undersized. this has resulted in modules sticking. combined with a tiny ground wire to spring has resulted in few broken wires already. 

again, main reason I posted was to warn folks about this issue. once you know this problem exists. it's not a big deal to work around it.


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## rmacias (Jan 10, 2006)

cy said:


> I've measured quite a few Surefire bulbs over this and none measure over .3740 VS xbin module measures .3740 tapering to .3750 near base.
> 
> I'm using a calibrated Mitituyo digital 1in mic and is dead on.
> 
> ...


 
I'm using a calibrated Mitutoyo 6" caliper. In my previous post I meant to say that I had .0005 tolerance window and the measurements are within +/- .00025. My readings are .3745 tapering to .3750 at the base.

You must have an undersized TH or mine is slightly oversized. It sounds like a slight tolerance conflict.

RJM


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## LEDcandle (Jan 10, 2006)

Looks like so far all of you have the equipment and know-how to easily fix any problems you encounter with the TH module... what about general users whose tool inventory is limited to a couple of screwdrivers?


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## Luna (Jan 10, 2006)

Kiessling said:


> Also ... the LED-module "looses" very much light as it rides high in a shallow reflector ... which is the reason for the big and bright corona you get. The hotspot is tight but not excessively strong. The incan bulb however does not have this "disadvantage" as it puts out its light in all directions and not only forward like the LED ... so more light is collimated into a throwing beam.




Also remember that the die itself is rated unlike a bulb that is tested into a 4pi space. So, the emitter doesn't have the same backplane losses that we apply to incandescents since they never project backwards .nana: just rehashing the 65% argument )


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## Luna (Jan 10, 2006)

jtice said:


> I have one of these sinks though, and always wanted to use it.




Is anyone making these sinks now? I've had urge to build up one but I've been too lazy to turn one.


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## wquiles (Jan 11, 2006)

I just got an used mini-lathe for my own birthday. I have not even turn the thing ON since I have been reading about it (safety things, tools, etc.), plus I have been construction a sturdy bench for it. But, it does look like it could be a cool project for somebody experienced with a mini-lathe  (I am not even close to being there yet!) 

Will


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## jtice (Jan 11, 2006)

Luna said:


> Is anyone making these sinks now? I've had urge to build up one but I've been too lazy to turn one.



Not that I know of 

I think Arcmania, and Kui were the only ones making them.

~John


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## LED Zeppelin (Jan 12, 2006)

Thanks guys for all the great info in this thread!

I bought one of these Arcmania modules before I had a light to put it in, and just got around to ordering a SFTH for it. I also bought various cell extenders and adapters to play around with it in both E and C series lights with primaries and Li-ions. The wide operating voltage range really give a lot of options for cell configurations.

I had the module in an M6 and the fit was good, snug but not binding. I'll be sure to check the bore of my incoming TH before I insert the module.

Wquiles, nice birthday present! Hmmm, my B-day isn't too far off...a mini machining center might be just the ticket.


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## LEDcandle (Jan 12, 2006)

Hey LED Zeppelin,

If you read my post, I found difference in output when running 3 x R123as as opposed to 2 x R123as or 176500s. 

If you have a lux meter, you might wanna look out for that so you know which combi of batteries to go for for maximum output or runtime. (unless my convertor is spoilt, in which case any battery you go for should yield the same results)


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## cy (Jan 12, 2006)

LEDcandle said:


> Looks like so far all of you have the equipment and know-how to easily fix any problems you encounter with the TH module... what about general users whose tool inventory is limited to a couple of screwdrivers?


you really don't need much to fix fit issue, if you have not broken the tiny lead yet. 

gently clamp TM down, then get a piece of emery cloth strip. tear strip in half, down to size needed

then SLOWLY sand down module shaft, stopping often to check for fit. wipe off all abrasives each time before inserting into reflector. 

you want a nice sliding fit (not too loose) to give good thermal path to metal reflector. 

if lead is broken, recommend splicing a tiny amount extra wire for movement.


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## LEDcandle (Jan 12, 2006)

By the grace of God, mine fits perfectly 

But thanks for the step-by-step CY... you'd be surprised how many people don't have clamps and sandpaper..haha.. I didn't when I first started but now I'm stocked with a good deal of stuff for a beginner.


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## LEDcandle (Jan 12, 2006)

LEDcandle said:


> 2 x 17670 or 2 x R123as give the same output (measured at 1100ma). Once I change to 3 x R123as, the output drops (measured 730 ma).
> 
> This could be a 'good thing' too (assuming convertor isn't spoilt in some way), meaning I can have a choice of output by changing the batt combinations



I forgot that P = VI, so if the voltage goes up (3 cell setup), the current drops. But still :-

2 cells
Voltage = 4.08v x 2 = 8.16v
Current = 1.09A
Power = 8.8944w (Who needs a 7w light eh? haha :naughty

3 cells
Voltage = 3.7v x 3 = 11.1v
Current = 0.73A
Power = 8.103w

The 3 cell still registers lower output for some reason. Anyone else have the same results?


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## rmacias (Jan 12, 2006)

LEDcandle said:


> I forgot that P = VI, so if the voltage goes up (3 cell setup), the current drops. But still :-
> 
> 2 cells
> Voltage = 4.08v x 2 = 8.16v
> ...


 
I purchased a Surefire cell extender for my setup, L5+Turbo Head+5w Module and didn't notice an increase in light output. The power source I'm using is the protected R123 batteries. When I pull them fresh off the charger they measure 4.3v. I ran the 5w module with 2x4.3v and 3x4.3v and the 2 cell configuration yielded the same brightness to the naked eye. I don't know but I think the circuitry is a buck setup and is bucking the extra juice. 

The A19 cell extender will be on eBay soon.

RJM


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## LEDcandle (Jan 12, 2006)

Yup, naked eye seems similar but my lightbox picks it up. 100 output difference which is about 25 lumens by my scale.


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## rmacias (Jan 13, 2006)

LEDcandle said:


> Yup, naked eye seems similar but my lightbox picks it up. 100 output difference which is about 25 lumens by my scale.


 
For only a 25 lumen increase I would rather use a 2 cell setup. Plus the A19 cell extender turns my L5 into an Ugly Stick.

RJM


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## LEDcandle (Jan 13, 2006)

rmacias said:


> For only a 25 lumen increase I would rather use a 2 cell setup. Plus the A19 cell extender turns my L5 into an Ugly Stick.
> 
> RJM



Erm, it is the 2-cell that gives out more light. The 3 cell makes output drop. So, all is well  I'm using 2 x 17500 for more runtime tho, so it's still an ugly stick. When I don't foresee the need for long runtime, I'll definitely trim it down to 2 x R123a size; much nicer looking :thumbsup:


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## Lunarmodule (Jan 14, 2006)

Hello there,

I'm a big fan of my ARCMania WX0S Lux V. I ran it at first in my M6 head, later in a KT1 and also an older SF 3" T3 on loan from Topper. Fitment was easy with the M6, no troubles, a bit snug (slight interference) with the KT1 and more snug with the T3. Common sense and luck prevailed as I gently exerted twisting on the knurled ring to loosen it, it never jammed completely. Thanks for the valuable repair info and pics, they may be handy in the future.

I measure current at the tailcap at 1080mA on 2 fresh 17500s, 630mA on fresh 3x R123s and 740mA on partly discharged 3x R123. Identical current for 2x 17500 and 2x R123. I'm not the EE, but it makes sense to me with the 2x 17500 setup the Vbatt is relatively close to the drive voltage of the LED, perhaps very close for a 1A drive.

With the 3x R123, perhaps because such a large battery voltage surplus exists the inefficiency of the buck converter imparts a slightly lower drive level to the LED because it has to "do away with" the higher voltage. Makes sense that way thinking 2x R123 or 2x17500 is virtually direct drive wheras the 12V+ option has to make the converter really work at sending the proper level. 

Way back there, Action commented on the MN60 in a TH vs a 5W Module. Yeah, no contest for sheer throw, but the MN60 will decimate a trio of R123s in as little as 15-20 minutes. An hour with 4 primaries would be a novelty, as in the M4. But runtime is drastically shorter with the incan bulbs, and its so obvious SO much is wasted as infrared (invisible) energy. 

For short bursts, the super short filament of the MN60 makes for a super tight spot, MUCH more intense than the MN61, which has a higher power rating but markedly inferior for throw due to its broad filament creating a giant spot and sucking far more current. The MN60 is a unique LA for spot use, exceptional. 

That said, no LED I have yet seen can equal the quality of range I get from the 5W Turbo Module. My ELX-6, while producing a boatload of photons, does not reach as far as the 5W TM in the 3" SF T3 head. Its incredible! It made me re-evaluate the "LEDs just can throw like incans" statement. Cheers to the modders that made these trick modules!


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## seattlite (Jan 15, 2006)

I have 2 of these modules, one with a DB1000(9-15V) converter, the other with an Arcmania converter(7.4-12V). I have the following questons:

1. Will I be able to use the DB1000 module with 3xRCR123's(12.6V) in the M6 battery carrier? How about 6 x RCR123's?
2. Will I be able to use BOTH modules in the M6 with 6xCR123's?

Thanks,
Richard


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## LEDcandle (Jan 15, 2006)

seattlite said:


> I have 2 of these modules, one with a DB1000(9-15V) converter, the other with an Arcmania converter(7.4-12V). I have the following questons:
> 
> 1. Will I be able to use the DB1000 module with 3xRCR123's(12.6V) in the M6 battery carrier? How about 6 x RCR123's?
> 2. Will I be able to use BOTH modules in the M6 with 6xCR123's?
> ...



I thought the Arcmania one does 7.4-16v? 

If it's up to 12v only, then you might have to use slightly discharged li-ons if you want to use 3 of 'em. 

Using 6 is the same since the M6 battery holder is a parallel configuration. I guess you will have to look out for the second bank of batteries having to be slightly discharged as well. 

The DB1000 should work either way.


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## Lunarmodule (Jan 17, 2006)

The ARCMania Turbomodule works very well with the M6 body, with either CR123 primary cells or R123 rechargeables. Runtime is well over one hour with R123s in a stock M6 battery holder. The M6 is a three in series, two in parallel arrangement that works nicely. I actually prefer a SF 3-cell body with 3 R123s or a 17500 pair with KT1/2 Turbohead for the smaller form factor, however.


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## Morelite (Jan 29, 2006)

I'm thinking about trying to make one of these tower modules for myself and I have a few questions. First, I notice several posts saying the emitter sat rather high in the reflector. Since these where custom made is there a reason for that? Would it be better if I made the tower shorter so the emitter base sits lower in the reflector? Second, would using brass or copper give me better heatsinking results.

Thanks, Dwayne


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## cy (Jan 29, 2006)

finally got my XYOS turbo module going properly. sanded down module carefully to fit. turned out positive lead to small spring was broken too. after carefully re-soldering both leads, turbo module finally came to life. 

TM must be loose enough to freely spin. when turbo head is screwed on to body or twisting action will spin main spring possibly breaking tiny ground lead. 

TM's is an excellent tint and throws very well. In a mini-shootout MRX-X3T is still the king! output/throw is substantially better than Xbin turbo module. but MRX is driven at 1.5amp VS 1amp.


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## LEDcandle (Jan 29, 2006)

Morelite said:


> I'm thinking about trying to make one of these tower modules for myself and I have a few questions. First, I notice several posts saying the emitter sat rather high in the reflector. Since these where custom made is there a reason for that? Would it be better if I made the tower shorter so the emitter base sits lower in the reflector? Second, would using brass or copper give me better heatsinking results.
> 
> Thanks, Dwayne



The emitter die must be set at the same height as the filament of the original incan bulb . It happens for the SF turboheads, the lamps sit quite inside of the reflector and thus the LED module will have to follow. I believe SF didn't design the reflector for the light source to sit at the base and you'll prob not get focus if the Lux is at the base. 

Brass isn't in the same league as copper; copper is better. The only thing marginally better than copper is silver. Brass is copper + tin if I'm not wrong, and an alloy is not as effective as a pure metal. 

Aluminium is the 3rd in line for thermal conductivity and I think I vaguely remember it retaining heat the longest among the 3.


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## Morelite (Jan 29, 2006)

Thanks LEDcandle,

I'm going to try this as soon as I get the converter.


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## NewBie (Apr 14, 2006)

LEDcandle said:


> Anyway, here is a runtime test of my module on 2 x R123as 700mah protected.
> Batt voltage = 4.08v each
> Current = 1090 ma
> 
> ...




Well assuming you are using a WX1S the Vf is 5.91-6.39V. So lets average the Vf to 6.15V. It is stated the drive to the 5W is 1000mA. So you have 6.15W to the LED.

You stated your cell voltage was 4.08V at 1090mA. You have two cells in series. 4.08V * 2 = 8.16V So, 8.16V * 1090mA = 8.8944 W

(fyi, 6.15W/8.8944W= 69.14% efficiency)

Anyhow, with your cells, lets say the average voltage is 3.7V over the runtime. 3.7V * 700mAH = 2.59 WH You have two of these for 5.18 WH total.

You are drawing 8.8944W, so 5.18/8.8944= 0.58238, so 0.58238 * 60 minutes equals 34.9428 minutes runtime. 

Yup, that sounds about right.


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## LEDcandle (Apr 14, 2006)

Dang, nice calculations 
All I did was 700mah/1090ma = 0.642
0.642 * 60mins = 38.52 mins approx 

you were asking about slug temps in the other thread; I might test it one of these days with my infrared thermometer (not sure how accurate that'll be because the slug is really small, even for a laser dot) but I'm trying not to clock too many hours on my module as it is


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## NewBie (Apr 22, 2006)

Thanks.


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## Bullzeyebill (Feb 26, 2007)

Ran across this thread and have some questions about NewBie's results. Not the math. Filgures were based on 700mAh RCR123, protected. I would say that at one amp to led any protected RCR123 would not have a capacity of 700mA's, and it would be closer to 300-350mAh, particularly when the two RCR123's were only 4.08 volts each. I believe that the efficiency of the converter is higher than 69% or so, and it is outstanding that the protected RCR123's ran the turbohead module close to 37 minutes. If the turbohead had been run with Powerizer unprotected RCR123's, then Ah rating would have been in the 550-600mAh range, and it might have run one hour with two of them. Just my tardy thoughts.

Bill


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