# More dying Energizer 2500's...



## PlayboyJoeShmoe (Apr 4, 2007)

I had two pair of E 2500 charged on my C Crane sit for maybe 5 days, and the first pair quit powering my GPSr about 2pm (It will normally last until 8-9pm).

The second pair (which have shown trouble already) where already down to 1.1ish at that point.

I'm thinking there COULD have been a problem with the C Crane. I will know more when I put the second pair (charged last night) into the GPSr in the morning. 

CURIOUS is the fact that both pair are acting the same as their mates. I've only had single cells die up to now.

So far I have had zero problems with Duracell 2500's, and the two pair of Rayovac Hybrid have been cool so far...


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## CM (Apr 4, 2007)

My Energizer 2500 (the ones made in Japan, not China) are pretty close to spent now after only a year of light usage. Less than a hundred charge/discharge cycles. I have 1800mAH that get longer runtimes in my lights than when I use the 2500's. The 1800's are at least a few years old.


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## PlayboyJoeShmoe (Apr 4, 2007)

Yes, I failed to mention that my E 2500 are JAPAN made. I always THOUGHT that was a good thing....

Oh yeah, these are also somewhere around a year old with MAYBE 125 charge cycles, but probably more like 100.


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## Lumbee1 (Apr 6, 2007)

All of my Energizer 2500's are all starting to fail after a year and a half. One 4pk powers my digi cam, while the other 4pk (2 pairs) get swapped in and out of my Fenix L2T. When I first got my Fenix, I could go a month between charges. Now, I rarely get high mode for a few days before it drops to low mode indicating low battery. The digi cam doesn't get used nearly as much, but now I am having issues with the batteries dying quickly in it.

I am going to toss all of the Energizers and either stick with Duracell 2650's or Eneloops.


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## LuxLuthor (Apr 6, 2007)

I think part of the issue is pushing the limits of AA construction performance/quality when they moved above 2300-2400 mAh cells.


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## xiaowenzu (Apr 6, 2007)

LuxLuthor said:


> I think part of the issue is pushing the limits of AA construction performance/quality when they moved above 2300-2400 mAh cells.


 I think you're right. The higher capacity cells (above 2400) start to break down in about 0.5-1 year depending on use. Scary stuff. This defeats the purpose of trying to save money using Nimhs. It's best to get Sanyo Eneloops 2000.. they are currently the best performing Nimh currrently.


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## SoundMix (Apr 6, 2007)

Along with Energizers, I also had some Sanyo 2700's go bad with light use.


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## PlayboyJoeShmoe (Apr 6, 2007)

One SERIOUS_ problem with all this is that all one can find at a brick and mortar establishment are the 2500+ mAh batteries.

I have some older 1800-2000 mAh that have been hanging in there great!_


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## BentHeadTX (Apr 6, 2007)

I bought some Sony 2500's with the Sanyo HR stamp 1.5 years ago. They were recycled about 9 months back with massive self-discharge of only a few days. All eight of my Powerex 2500's with Sanyo HR stamp are dying in less than a week after charging. They are going to the recycle bin also.

My 2 year old Titanium 2400's are still going strong after about 75 cycles on them and work well. They self discharge but very slowly.

I have been using Powerex 2700's since October 06 and they are working much better than the 2500's they replaced. Long term viability is not known but they should be fine as they test well on a battery analyzer at high loads. 

With that being said, I am buying Eneloops from now on for several reasons. They can handle high amp loads without voltage sag, they don't self-discharge much at all and the capacity is enough for my needs.

I started out my NiMH life with Powerex 2100's and they lasted 3 years and well over 150 cycles. I have some 3 year old Sanyo 2300's that power my wireless trackball and they get recharged every two months. Sanyo 1700's (3 years now) work great and have held their capacity in my LuxV Mag mod. The Eneloops have the capacity of the original 2100's but won't self discharge and can handle higher currents. My experience with the HR series of 2500's was a step backwards so the Eneloop 2000's are several steps forward. It will be nice to have NiMH that I don't wonder if they will be dead when I need to use them again.


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## Flash_Gordon (Apr 6, 2007)

I am becoming more than a little skeptical of NiMH AA cells of 2500 mAH capacity and above. This comes from much anecdotal information on this forum and my own experience.

I just trashed three sets of almost new 2500 mAH cells. This was one set of 4 Energizers from WallyWorld and two sets of Sanyos purchased online. Same cells and the same failure mode. Very fast self discharge along with the propensity of one or more cells in a set to collapse under almost any load. I left home with three sets of new, tested and conditioned cells, which left me scrambling to have to mix and match to come up with a working set.

On the other side, I have several sets of PowerEx 2300 mAH cells which have been bulletproof. No failures and no weak sisters. Pushing three years of use with many cycles.

Is my experience meaningful. Maybe, who knows for sure. Thomas Dist. still has 2300 PowerEx. The price is good and I think I'll buy some more of these.

High capacity in a defective cell is as useless as.....

Mark


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## PlayboyJoeShmoe (Apr 6, 2007)

I would TEND to totally agree...

Except I haven't had a bit of trouble from Duracell HR 2500 yet.

Of course they don't have quite the time/cycles as all the Energizers that are going belly up.....

Also they have been used exclusively in my 2AA GPSr, which can't be said about most of my other NimH...


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## VidPro (Apr 6, 2007)

i have some of the data on mine now.
when we FIRST got the first set of 2500s as soon as they came out, i marked them, mostly because they were totally different capacity.
after many cycles and year or so of use, those "firsts" will self discharge MORE than 1/2 after a mere week. 

the others purchaced later, from the same place, are just fine after a week, and would make it 2-3week easy for our use.

knowing that these were purchaced within a few "cycles" of each other, and within the same basic time element, all i can figure is this "First" batch is trash.

here we use them (usually) right after charging/topping (within days), so there has never really been an issue with it. but i think this first batch is just TOO bad.


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## clintb (Apr 7, 2007)

I have some Energizer 2500's that were purchased very soon after they appeared in retail stores. They've been very lightly used and certainly not abused. In all, I have ten cells, of those eight are high self discharge. I sent an email to Energizer stating the problem and received an email stating they'd send a $10 coupon. Seems to be pretty standard. I might put that towards the purchase of the 15 min charger to mess around with.

Since the cells (eight of them) are pretty much trash, I've put them in my Integy Booster 3 discharge tray. It discharges individual cells to 0V, but has protection from reversal. I then put all eight in a holder and hooked it up to my Ace DDVC at 250 mAh for 16 hrs. I've been monitoring the voltage for a week and so far they're staying above 1.2V. Next will be to top them off and check the capacity.


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## oldvultureface (Apr 7, 2007)

This is far from a scientific observation but I had a set of 2500's used for about a year in my older high drain digital camera. The camera recently became unusable after only a few pictures. Two of the cells were dead and were recycled. The other two I use in a Nite Ize 2AA Minimag at work. It's used about 5 to 10 minutes total a day pulling 175 mA. After a week, the two remaining Energizers show only 40% charge remaining (at least they're matched!). Everything in the house that uses rechargables now gets Eneloops or Hybrids.


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## CM (Apr 8, 2007)

The increased capacity to the detriment of reliability and internal resistance is making me move away from NiMH. Seems like everyone and their grandma are selling the latest "HIGH CAPACITY" cells that have very short shelf life or very limited cycle life. I may try eneloops but for me, Li-Ion is my choice of rechargeables.


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## jayflash (Apr 8, 2007)

Does limiting the charge to 500mA help? I've had mine for over a year but usually charge at that rate.


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## alexanderino (Apr 8, 2007)

I've been resuscitating my friend's 9 month-old Energizer 2500mAh batts with my new Maha C9000 for the past two days. Here are the discharge figures, before and after one refresh and analyse cycle:


```
Before - After
 1353  -  1870
 1392  -  1893
 1541  -  1964
 1548  -  1987
 1949  -  2202
 1986  -  2191
 2003  -  2402
 2157  -  2327
```
They were incapable of holding their charge for more than a week. Last time he used the first four in his Canon S2 IS, he got three shots :thumbsdow

I'll keep you updated as to their progress.


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## VidPro (Apr 8, 2007)

alexanderino said:


> I've been resuscitating my friend's 9 month-old Energizer 2500mAh batts with my new Maha C9000 for the past two days. Here are the discharge figures, before and after one refresh and analyse cycle:
> 
> They were incapable of holding their charge for more than a week. Last time he used the first four in his Canon S2 IS, he got three shots :thumbsdow
> 
> I'll keep you updated as to their progress.



yes please do, i would have never thought that cycling them would improve anything. and the MAIN thing is if cycling them on that pulse charger will reduce the self discharge.

but you did not mention any RATES that you were doing this at?


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## Handlobraesing (Apr 9, 2007)

For capacity tests, overnight charging is the best, because it never suffers from false termination.


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## peskyphotons (Apr 9, 2007)

I called Energizer and complained about my cells not holding a charge for more than a couple of weeks. After grilling me a little about how I was charging them they said they would mail me a coupon to replace them. My question is, are the new Energizer cells better than the old ones. Mine have a date code of 10-04 on them.

Thanks,
Alex


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## Handlobraesing (Apr 9, 2007)

peskyphotons said:


> I called Energizer and complained about my cells not holding a charge for more than a couple of weeks. After grilling me a little about how I was charging them they said they would mail me a coupon to replace them. My question is, are the new Energizer cells better than the old ones. Mine have a date code of 10-04 on them.
> 
> Thanks,
> Alex



CSRs are trained to handle with the lowest skill leveled consumer, so the best way is to lie your way through. 

So, if they blame it on your charging method say something like "I used the Energizer charger that came with a combo pack that charges the same kind of batteries it came with just fine. "

If you admit to using another brand charger, they'll tell you that "using a different brand charger might not charge correctly" BS.


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## alexanderino (Apr 9, 2007)

VidPro said:


> ... you did not mention any RATES that you were doing this at?



1000 mAh charge, 800 mAh discharge. I will put them through 3 cycles, then after a week, I'll discharge them so see how much they hold. Later, I'll do the break-in process as well.


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## Bullzeyebill (Apr 9, 2007)

I have some of the green industrial Sanyo 2500's, and they are useless in a few days after charging. Some of my good lights, Arc LS, and VIP's can run on two AA's, so I am very interested in good low self discharge NiMh's. Some of my Rayovac IC's have been holding up pretty well, and they handle 2+amp draw easily. These are low capacity (2000mAh) batteries.

Bill


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## jumpstat (Apr 9, 2007)

I have yet to replace/upgrade my current Nimh which is the Sanyo Twicell 1700, I bought about 15 of them to compliment 3 nikon SB800 flashes in February 2004. Although current offerings have much higher capacities, these 1700 cells have yet to fail me. I do not know how many cycles these batteries have gone through, but I can safely say that they have been used on many photog sessions since. They still provide min 300 flash per set and that's my benchmark for these batteries. I can still charge them at 1.25 amps however they tend to be hot at these setting. Normally I charge them at 0.75/1.0 amps in series x 5 cells and I do discharge them using a discharge tray something like 3 months once. For charging, I use the Tekin 112A, 1-10 cell DC charger, and a Meanwell 20Amp 13volt power supply. Some may say that my charge/discharge ways are killing the cells, but honestly, this is the way I care for them and they are still reliable as when first bought.
I did try once Sony2100 and GP1900, but both crapped out and they couldn't really get to the mAh as specified. I am also not saying that these brands are no good. They are all good however, not all batteries can relate to all applications and thus provide the user guaranteed performance. 
Just to share my experience with you all.


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## eav2k (Apr 9, 2007)

Anyone have the phone number to call Energizer.


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## SilverFox (Apr 9, 2007)

Hello Eav2k,

Welcome to CPF.

Energizer is at 1-800-FUDPEBE.  

Tom


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## eav2k (Apr 9, 2007)

Thanks


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## eav2k (Apr 9, 2007)

Just called Energizer, they want the cells back for testing. They are sending me a return label.


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## GoingGear.com (Apr 9, 2007)

You guys might want to try to the Lacrosse BC-900 charger, which can be had for around $35-40 shipped. It has 4 chargers that you can set individually, so you do not have to worry about charging everything of the same type at once.

I have about 100 Duracell 1800 mAH batteries that I have been using for several years (I probably have a few too many electronics). Before I got the Lacrosse, I could not get them to charge past 600-700 mAH, and they would self-discharge within a week or two. I put them in the Lacrosse on the discharge/refresh setting, and the 20 or so I did this to all went up to around 1600-1700 mAH, which was better than they were brand new! They still self-discharge faster than an Eneloop, but I can leave them sitting on my desk for a month or two and still have useable batteries. Also, when they are freshly charged, I can throw them in a game controller or something similar and have them last as long as new alkalines.


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## balazer (Apr 9, 2007)

Handlobraesing said:


> For capacity tests, overnight charging is the best, because it never suffers from false termination.


Well there are other, more reliable ways of terminating the charge, like Delta T. I hope Tom can tell us some things about Delta T charging.


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## PlayboyJoeShmoe (Apr 9, 2007)

All I can hope to do is keep my C Crane Quick Charger perking along.

I WISH I could just order up a BC-900, but  is the word spoken most in my house!

I'm running an "iffy" pair of Energizer 2100 on the discharge/charge mode right now. They were charged yesterday, and just started at 1.39V for the pair.


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## VidPro (Apr 9, 2007)

alexanderino said:


> 1000 mAh charge, 800 mAh discharge. I will put them through 3 cycles, then after a week, I'll discharge them so see how much they hold. Later, I'll do the break-in process as well.



thanks Alexanderino, hmm who woulda thought, i am getting some of the same results you are. just less balanced between the cells. one of them started at ~17?? and is now at 2500.
mine very rapidly discharge, i am churning them with a refresh on the lacross 900 thing, at 700ma

we shall see if the real problem the self discharge is "improved"

i still got the problem of: they are only good for so many total cycles, so putting more cycles on them, dont sound (to me) like its gonna help.


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## GarageBoy (Apr 11, 2007)

How do the new "low self discharge" Sanyo 2700 hold up?


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## eav2k (Apr 18, 2007)

I just sent my failing 2500's back to Energizer today. We'll see what happens.


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## Curious_character (Apr 18, 2007)

alexanderino said:


> I've been resuscitating my friend's 9 month-old Energizer 2500mAh batts with my new Maha C9000 for the past two days. Here are the discharge figures, before and after one refresh and analyse cycle:
> 
> 
> ```
> ...


If you're relying on the capacity reported by the Maha charger, you might be getting fooled. I have some NiMH cells which the C9000 reported as just fine at 1 amp discharge, but measurements with a constant current 1 amp discharge test fixture showed the capacity to be much less. What happened was that the cells had an abnormally high internal resistance when the cells got partially discharged. The constant current discharge test reported the time at which the voltage dropped to one volt per cell, which was well before the cells were fully discharged because of the internal resistance. But the Maha periodically turns off the discharge current, then measures the no-load voltage. The discharge doesn't terminate until this no-load voltage reaches one volt. Consequently, the Maha reports a much greater capacity. But it's not a realistic representation of the capacity you'll really get under load -- a camera or other device will quit working when the cell voltage reaches some low level under load, not open circuit as the Maha measures it.

I haven't looked carefully at a large number of older cells, but suspect this may be a fairly common failure mode. Both of a pair of cells which had been used together and never abused were showing this characteristic. Repeated discharge-charge cycling, even including discharge at a low current to a low voltage and charging at C/10 for 16 hours didn't fix the high resistance problem.

c_c


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## PlayboyJoeShmoe (Apr 18, 2007)

I have one more E2500 HR Japan 0 6-05 L4 that won't hold a charge for more than about a day, and it's "mate" (same markins - all are marked as pairs - this pair being "B") is suspect as well as pair "A".

I thought I was having my first problems with Duracell 2500 HR but it appears it was a charging issue. 

I'm running fairly scientific testing on these troublesome Energizers.


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## HCaul (Apr 18, 2007)

I have to reluctantly agree about the poor reliability of the higher capacity AA nimh cells. About a third of the 48 Sanyo 2700's I have put in service a year ago (from two different batches, 06 01 and 06 03) have started to exhibit very high self discharge (e.g., 50% of capacity after a week). This is in a variety of devices, but none particularly high current, and charged mostly with Maha 801s. On the other hand, ALL of the sanyo 2300's I put in service 2-3 years ago are still going strong. All of this is with maybe 3-5 charge/dischage cycles per month and the occasional refresh cycle.

I'm a very heavy user of rechargable batteries in my work (I regularly take to client sites devices that among them have more than 40 AA cells), and definitely notice battery performance.

I just got 48 Eneloops, which I'll start to swap in in batches as old cells go bad.

H. Caul


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## Handlobraesing (Apr 19, 2007)

I'm guessing full discharge and full charge are both bad for NiMH batteries. The battery manager in Prius allows neither fully charged or fully discharged conditions.

http://consumerguideauto.howstuffworks.com/hybrid-batteries-none-the-worse-for-wear-cga.htm

When you fully discharge, the weaker cells suffer from very damaging polarity reversal and the demerit exceeds the merit of avoiding "memory effect". I'm not so sure why full charging is bad if you don't allow the battery to get hot. 

A few of my Duracell 2650mAh started to lose charge completely overnight after some 30-50 (i don't keep accurate count) repetitive full charge/full discharge cycles on BC-900 battery tester. 

I'd say use them only when you need to get the longest possible use out of one charge(which should be longer than a set of alkaline for high power app), but recycle them after 20-25 uses, because capacity and retention ability begins to decline.


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## RobSpook (Apr 19, 2007)

hey guys, just a little note to chime in here from my experience. Back when I first got on CPF, i found someone post about returning his AA's to Energizer so I did the same thing. I mailed 20 Energizer AA's also with numbers in the xx-04 range, and received a check for $50. These batteries all had light green paper around the positive electrode.

I read in yet other post on CPF that people experience better performance from Energizer AA's that have the Black paper around the positive electrode. So I got five packages of the black paper AA's (from China I think) and so far they have 4 cycles on them since November, and they're holding up well. I have 16 of them (in place of four D cells) in a baby crib aquarium thing that has dimming lights, music, and a pump to make bubbles, they are lasting about 5-6 weeks. Pretty good in my opinion since it goes through two 10 minute cycles every night.

I know that's not enough data to say "they're better". If they fail again, I'll send them back to Energizer and spend the $50 check adding to my supply of 40 Eneloops (which are absolutely outstanding.)


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## PlayboyJoeShmoe (Apr 19, 2007)

It looks as though pair "B" are toast. (Energizer 2500HR).

But pair "25A" which were also suspect SEEM to be ok. It's taking the C Crane Quick Charger a pretty long time to discharge them, MUCH longer than either "B" by itself.

I have a couple dozen cells from 1650 up to 2300mAh that are sitting idle after days from being charged. I'm going to check them all.

Also I said I was going to try 1800, 2050 and 2100 in my GPSr. The 2100s ran all day Monday but shut down while I was at the bowling alley. The 1800s run all day but show that perhaps only minutes remain when I check before shutting it down at 5:30P

The 2500 Duracells will run right through bowling, or from 5AM to 5:30 to 6PM without problem.

But I only have 8 of those. Trying to get another couple pair of E2500 to be good is problematic at best!


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## GCBStokes (Apr 19, 2007)

I have had trouble with a few brands of 2500 mAh NiMH Batteries. Not just me, but all members of my Research Group have all had very bad luck with all of the 2500 mAh NiMH Batteries that we have used. Energizer 2500, Powermex 2500 and Sanyo 2500 are the batteries we had trouble with and all were Japanese Made. I don't think it's all batteries 2400 mAh and up with problems, because we have Titanium 2400 and 2600 Batteries that are all well over 2 years old and have been used extensively. And between myself and 7 other researcher that use these batteries we have only had a few go bad (We all have at least 12 Cells each). Of my 16 Titanium 2600 mAh batteries that are over two years old and have been gone through a cycle at lease three times per week, and have been charged hundreds of times, I have 14 that still perform wonderfully. Two of them charge, but don't hold a charge more then 12 hours of so. I have 12 Titanium 2400 mAh NiMH Cells that are ever 2 1/2 years old and four of them and now starting to discharge faster. 

Now I have 12 Titanium 2700 Cells (I got in November of 2006) and 16 Sanyo 2700 (Six Weeks Old) and so far, so good and I really like them a lot. And talk about awesome runtime! I also just got a set of the Powerex 2700 Cells to try. I looks as if the Sanyo 2700 AA will be our new front-line AA's for use in our Apex Headlamps. And the Titanium 2700 Cell will get used in our two-radios. And we all agreed to get new sets of Titanium 2400 Cells for use in our digital camera because we have had such good luck with them and the seem to last and last. 

So, I'm thinking that it may have been with just with the 2500 mAh Cells. I've talk with a few other people and some dealers, and they seem to agree it was just a problem with some of the 2500 Cells. They tell me that the Sanyo 2500 problem has be remedied, but I thought it would better to go with the 2700 then test that theory


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## balazer (Apr 20, 2007)

Handlobraesing said:


> I'm guessing full discharge and full charge are both bad for NiMH batteries. The battery manager in Prius allows neither fully charged or fully discharged conditions.
> 
> http://consumerguideauto.howstuffworks.com/hybrid-batteries-none-the-worse-for-wear-cga.htm
> 
> When you fully discharge, the weaker cells suffer from very damaging polarity reversal and the demerit exceeds the merit of avoiding "memory effect". I'm not so sure why full charging is bad if you don't allow the battery to get hot.


These bad things can happen when you charge and discharge cells in series, and the problems are worse the longer the series. 

You don't have to worry so much in more typical low-power consumer applications.


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## PlayboyJoeShmoe (Apr 20, 2007)

In checking all my 1800-2300 cells, I found a few questionable Energizer 2100 and one each E 2050 and E 2300. None are WAY under the voltage of the others, but are a measurable amount less.

I feel pretty good about pair "25A" of my E 2500 after several discharge/charge cycles on my C Crane.


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## hank (Apr 20, 2007)

Another batch of four Energizer 2500s here, all light green around the + terminal; all date coded 09-04; two have the code ending in -E6, two -E4. 

I have older Energizer 1850s that are still satisfactory. The 2500s never seemed any better than the older ones even from the beginning; I'd alternated the sets of 4 in a digital camera. The 2500s have quit being useful, they poop out fast.

Checking charging, putting on the shelf, and testing a few days or a week later, I find the 2500s also are going flat far faster than the 1850s.

Charging usually with a Maha C401FS (slow setting); sometimes with the Energizer charger that came bundled with the cells (14 hour, timer, CHM4AA, 50ma)


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## 65535 (Apr 20, 2007)

Those Energizers have been under fire from the RC community for awhile now, they have serious issues holding charges and their life isn't very long relatively.


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## Beacon of Light (Apr 20, 2007)

I'll have to check the date codes on my Energizer 2500's, but I read this thread for the same concerns as a fully charged set if left unused in a week, will be dead. I will email Energizer for replacements as I have 24 AA's. On the other hand the AAA's (850mah) seem fine.


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## jrmcferren (Apr 21, 2007)

I have a pair of E2500s that have finally failed. They did not power my stock incans Mini-Mag for even 15 minutes. My other pair is going strong, but I only have 6 NiMh AAs left and I only have 2 NiCds with me here at school.


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## Short Circuit (Apr 23, 2007)

I have just finished testing 16 of the 2500's some only charged 4-5 times and never placed in service and 8 of then will not hold a charge for more than a week before the voltave drops under 1.2. That is a fifty percent failure rate on cells that are about a year old and un-used.

I charge up all of my backup cells every 60-90 days so the cells would stay healthy..................

What a bunch of junk these cells turned out be.


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## cy (Apr 23, 2007)

I've got 16+ dead 2500 energizers bagged up... so add me to the list.


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## Catapult (Apr 24, 2007)

I am going to be sending back my Energizer 2500's. They self-discharge most of their capacity in just one week, becoming unsable in all but the lowest drain devices by then. The Energizer 1850's are much better, as reported by many. One set that I am testing is still running in my Stanley tripod LED light after 2 months of use, surprising since I thought NiMH would be close to finished after one month. I would analogically say that the 1850 is sort of like the Eneloop of the 2500. I regret jumping into the 2500 bandwagon.


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## Flash_Gordon (Apr 24, 2007)

My last set of Energizer 2500's just died. This makes two sets of Energizer 2500's and two sets of Sanyo 2500's.

I am going back to PowerEx 2300's or even 2000's. Thomas has the 2300's for $9.97 with $4.00 flat shipping and the 2000's for 5.97. 

BTW, my Energizer date code is 01-05 MT. 

Mark


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## Floating Spots (Apr 28, 2007)

Double Post


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## Floating Spots (Apr 28, 2007)

Add me too.
I have 20 of the Energizer 2500s.
Date code appears to be 10/ 2004.
I had hopes to resurrect them somehow, but I guess I'll just dump them and move on.


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## eav2k (May 1, 2007)

I just received $50 in coupons for new Energizers, to replace the dead cells sent to them a week ago. This is not what I wanted, I was hoping to go with Eneloops. Still; any recommendations for the best type of Energizer cells to get?


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## VidPro (May 1, 2007)

eav2k said:


> I just received $50 in coupons for new Energizers, to replace the dead cells sent to them a week ago. This is not what I wanted, I was hoping to go with Eneloops. Still; any recommendations for the best type of Energizer cells to get?



the 2200s were good, good luck finding any.
the 2300s are not as bad as the 2500s from what i tested here, they still suck.


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## bfg9000 (May 1, 2007)

I'd get two of the highly rated Energizer 15-minute charger kits. They each come with four of the good 2200s and then you could have eight cells (even Eneloops) charged up in 15-20 minutes.


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## PlayboyJoeShmoe (Jun 1, 2007)

Oh POOP! Now one each of two pairs of Duracell 2500 HRs seem to have died.

If not dead, at least these two showed under 1.0V while the other of each pair showed 1.2ish.

I'm going to try cycling them on my C Crane Quick Charger....

Perhaps I can get some more Hybrids, because NOTHING NimH I have had so far has been 100%


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## Bones (Jun 2, 2007)

eav2k said:


> I just received $50 in coupons for new Energizers, to replace the dead cells sent to them a week ago. This is not what I wanted, I was hoping to go with Eneloops. Still; any recommendations for the best type of Energizer cells to get?



You could try to barter for Eneloops or perhaps even cash.

The large chains probably don't have the flexibility, but an owner operated outlet might go for it for a percentage.

Can't hurt to ask.


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## PlayboyJoeShmoe (Jun 2, 2007)

The Duracells SEEM to be responding to treatment.

The first couple of cycles had the voltage nosediving on discharge.

But now it's taking much longer.

I am going to try Hybrids and see how they hold up. But when 2500mAh NimH are healthy they give GREAT runtime on my GPSr!!!


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## Beacon of Light (Jun 4, 2007)

I just got my replacement coupons from Energizer today. I did the math and I think they shorted me. I sent 20 2500's AA's and only received 4 - $10.00 coupons. 2 packs of 4AA's were still in unopened packs. Even wally world costs more than $10 a pack of 4.

I was expecting $50 in coupons. EaV2K, how many batteries did you send back to get $50?


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## MrAl (Jun 4, 2007)

Hi there,

Did they say anything about fixing the problem, like fixing the 2500mAh cells?
I got a ten dollar coupon too, but didnt have to send any cells back.


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## Beacon of Light (Jun 4, 2007)

They didn't say about the test results from the batteries I sent back. I wouldn't be surprised if the batteries that were unopened will probably just get shipped back out to retail channels (just a hunch) and the others ones who knowes if they really tested them, since they already know the problem with the discharge, although the phone rep never said it was a known issue, coming on here and reading this thread is all I need to know there is a problem. 

They did make it sound like my batteries were an isolated defect as they said, "Situations like yours don't happen very often, but on rare occasions when batteries do cause problems, we are very concerned. Customers like you help us maintain a high level of quality for our products. We appreciate your taking the time to return the problem batteries to us." To me it seems like an automated response.


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## PlayboyJoeShmoe (Jun 4, 2007)

The Duracells that were most "shaky" did ok today after being charged up last night. I generally charge 2 at a time over the weekend.

NOTE: Was in Walmart for drinks for the machine at work and HAD to go by lights, batteries and pens. Energizers are 2500 still while Duracells say 2650. The Es had HR on the bottom bigger than Dallas, but said made in China on the back of the package!!! I don't want or need any more 2500 or 2650s, intending to go all Hybrid in time.


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## MrAl (Jun 7, 2007)

Hi again,

Beacon: They said same thing to me, that it was not a known issue.
I should have said "yeah ok ha ha, not known to YOU but everyone else
in the world knows about it but Energizer ha ha".

Playboy: Yeah i saw only 2500's were being sold at Target too, so i went
somewhere else and bought some small AAA's that i needed for one
light with my coupon. I had to get Energizers because that was what the
coupon was for. I am currently going Hybrid too, or at least with the
Kodak low self discharge types of AA NiMH...it says right on the package that
the minimum initial capacity is 2000mAh, which is good of them i thought.
The Kodaks are actually called "Pre-Charged" in case you are interested.


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## Lightingguy321 (Jun 7, 2007)

Word to the wise, avoid buying any energizer rechargeables that are made in Japan. All of the made in Japan energizers have major problems with self discharge, venting during charge, and dieing within 2 days from self discharge. I would recommend either Duracell rechargeables or Amondotech's Titanium rechargeable AAs, both have fairly low self discharge rates (Titanium has the least) and very well made cells, with in the first charge many of my duracell 2650mAh batteries actually were charged up to ratings between 2700mAh and 2800mAh. I use a LaCrosse BC-900 charger and it works great but the batteries that come with the charger stink


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## BigusLightus (Jun 7, 2007)

All of my 24 Energygeezer 2500's croaked after maybe 15 cycles. They were only a few months old when the self discharge rate became less than three days. Yes, they did send coupons for replacement but that just means more Energygeezers that I really don't want.


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## WildChild (Jun 7, 2007)

Buy the free batteries and sell them back on eBay... you'll recover some money!



BigusLightus said:


> All of my 24 Energygeezer 2500's croaked after maybe 15 cycles. They were only a few months old when the self discharge rate became less than three days. Yes, they did send coupons for replacement but that just means more Energygeezers that I really don't want.


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## BlackDecker (Jun 7, 2007)

Add me to the growing list of dissatisfied owners of Energizer 2500 NiMh cells. I bought all of mine from Sam's Club, and every single one of them will self-discharge within 7-10 days of being charged with my LaCrosse BC-900 charger. I use the 'discharge' feature of the LaCrosse charger to discharge the cells as much as allowed, then it recharges them fully. I store them at room temperature and not near any light sources.

The pack from Sam's Club included 850mah AAA batteries as well, and these batteries seem to hold their charge just fine. I use them in several of my lights along with my Sandisk mp3 player.

My Sanyo Eneloop 2000 AA cells are far, far superior to these Energizers. The no-name batteries that came with my LaCrosse charger are even superior to the Energizers.


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## PlayboyJoeShmoe (Jun 7, 2007)

I don't have absolute records of when all my E 2500's have been charged, nor what V they had at the end.

But I have 8 that haven't been charged in at least a week, and the lowest V was 1.22

Actually my Duracell 2500's are starting to give me trouble.

I'm almost ready to start using Alks again.


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## BigusLightus (Jun 7, 2007)

Just like BlackDecker I also have the AAA's and they seem to hold up well.

I stopped by Wally's this afternoon to look at batts, not to buy any of course, and all they had were the four packs of 2500's. Interestingly enough the package stated "Made in China". Perhaps the Energygeezer bunny knows something and is not telling!


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## MrAl (Jun 7, 2007)

Hi there,

It pains me to say this, but i would not buy another pack of Energizer
NiMH until they acknowledge the problem and do something about it.
Apparently they are banking on people not noticing the problem.

Personally, i would rather have 2200's that perform well than
have 2500's that bite.


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## zipplet (Jun 9, 2007)

PlayboyJoeShmoe said:


> Actually my Duracell 2500's are starting to give me trouble.
> 
> I'm almost ready to start using Alks again.



Try out eneloops, trust me you WILL NOT be dissapointed! They cost a little more and the rated capacity is less (2000mah) however they can handle very high surge currents compared to alks and in my experience they are performing better than my energizer 2100s.

On topic, I have a set of energizer 2500s in my finepix s5600, and so far they have not given me any problems (a few months old) but they haven't been cycled many times.


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## mapson (Jun 9, 2007)

I'm not happy with the current Energizers nimhs as well but I may bite if they come out with an LSD battery. Actually the Eneloops, Kodak Pre-charged, and Hybrids, pretty much cost the same as Energizer's current line as well as any other nimh brands so cost is not an issue at all.


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## jrmcferren (Jun 9, 2007)

BigusLightus said:


> Just like BlackDecker I also have the AAA's and they seem to hold up well.
> 
> I stopped by Wally's this afternoon to look at batts, not to buy any of course, and all they had were the four packs of 2500's. Interestingly enough the package stated "Made in China". Perhaps the Energygeezer bunny knows something and is not telling!



Same here with the 850's, mine are made in China, my AA's (waiting for recycling) were made in Japan.


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## cave dave (Jun 10, 2007)

I did a self-discharge test on my Energizer 2500s. I charged them then stored them for 30days before the test.

1) 2100 mAh, blue label
2) 1900 mAh, blue label
3) 1900 mAh, black label
4) 1900 mAh, black label
5) 1800 mAh, black label
6) 1700 mAh, black label
7) 1500 mAh, blue label
8) 500 mAh, blue label

The thing I hate about these is I'm trying to convince my caving budies and other users to use rechargables. But they either still remember how bad NiCads were or maybe they have tried these batteries and they are always dead when they go to use them, so they keep using primaries.

Every caver and (non-LiIon) digicam user I have ever met use alkalines even though the performance is pathetic. Its hard to convince people that technology has changed and energizer sure isn't helping.


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## zipplet (Jun 10, 2007)

cave dave said:


> The thing I hate about these is I'm trying to convince my caving budies and other users to use rechargables. But they either still remember how bad NiCads were or maybe they have tried these batteries and they are always dead when they go to use them, so they keep using primaries.
> 
> Every caver and (non-LiIon) digicam user I have ever met use alkalines even though the performance is pathetic. Its hard to convince people that technology has changed and energizer sure isn't helping.



This is an annoyance of mine too. Atleast my dad will use rechargeables in his digicam, but other than that, everyone I know will use cheap bargain alkalines in absolutely everything. I have failed to convince people to switch to NiMH for use with digicams and torches so far 

Sometimes I think I'm almost the only person in a 1 mile radius with a charger and batts...


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## PlayboyJoeShmoe (Jun 10, 2007)

I'm still fighting to use NimH in my GPSr.

I thought I had found 4 good pair from all the E 2500s I have.

But pair "B" that I put in the GPSr today only ran about an hour. ARGH!

The Duracell 2500 are pulling similar crap.

I need to get at least 8 more Hybrids for a real test.


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## Handlobraesing (Jun 10, 2007)

Lightingguy321 said:


> Word to the wise, avoid buying any energizer rechargeables that are made in Japan. All of the made in Japan energizers have major problems with self discharge, venting during charge, and dieing within 2 days from self discharge. I would recommend either Duracell rechargeables or Amondotech's Titanium rechargeable AAs, both have fairly low self discharge rates (Titanium has the least) and very well made cells, with in the first charge many of my duracell 2650mAh batteries actually were charged up to ratings between 2700mAh and 2800mAh. I use a LaCrosse BC-900 charger and it works great but the batteries that come with the charger stink



How many cycles have you put on your Duracell 2650mAh? Mine too had fantastic test result, but after a 3-4 dozen cycles, some cells started to lose the full charge overnight. These aren't cells I use, but they're cells I ran some full discharge/charge tests on.


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## MrAl (Jun 11, 2007)

cave dave said:


> Every caver and (non-LiIon) digicam user I have ever met use alkalines even though the performance is pathetic. Its hard to convince people that technology has changed and energizer sure isn't helping.



Could not have said it better myself. Makes me wonder if the 2500's
were maybe a mad attempt to grab some of the market as the low
self discharge types began coming out.

It's time for Energizer to come out with a low self discharge type
cell now!!!


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## eav2k (Jun 11, 2007)

Beacon of Light said:


> I just got my replacement coupons from Energizer today. I did the math and I think they shorted me. I sent 20 2500's AA's and only received 4 - $10.00 coupons. 2 packs of 4AA's were still in unopened packs. Even wally world costs more than $10 a pack of 4.
> 
> I was expecting $50 in coupons. EaV2K, how many batteries did you send back to get $50?



Sorry I did not get back to you sooner, my notebook died, I am now on a new desktop system, but it took awhile to decide what to get. I don't remember how many batteries I sent in (I did not count them, my bad) but could have easily been more than 20.


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## Christexan (Jun 11, 2007)

***PLEASE READ!!!

Okay, I've mentioned it before along with others, and it bears repeating and hammering home.... the Japanese Energizer 2500s are HORRIBLE.... they self discharge rapidly even new out of the pack, and after cycling, typically stopping around 0.9V. I've bought many packs of Energizer 2500s, and here is what you need to know....
Energizer 2500s currently on the shelves (and always, as far as I know, I bought some of the first ones ever on the market), are made in either China, or Japan. The Chinese ones are GREAT, my first pair ever of these is over 2 years old and still holding up great on charges, no significant self discharge (normal expected 20%/month or so), and still have long lives (haven't measured, but in 1A bike light usage, i've gotten more than 2 hours consistently out of the OLDEST set, even now....)
You can tell them apart in the packages by looking at the positive terminal... if it's BLUE, it's BAD!!!! Those are the Japanese ones... I've only recently gotten them, on a couple of occasions, and every batch I've gotten has been crap. The ones with black terminals (Chinese) still continue to be excellent batteries, new or old, as far as I can tell. 
**** BUY 4-Packs of the AAs **** this is critical, I have yet to find an 8-pack of E-2500s that aren't the Japanese cells, the 4-packs can be either Chinese (black paper on positive terminal) or blue/greenish paper (japanese - bad). the 8 packs seem to exclusively be japanese.... you will NOT save money buying the 8 packs because they will suck. 
Home Depot sells the 4-packs retail for either $8.99 or $9.99 (cheaper than Wal-Mart at around $10.49 a pack) I believe, they are the cheapest I have found so far on a consistent basis. 
So, buy the 4-packs, with the black paper positive terminal wrapper, from Home Depot.


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## N162E (Jun 11, 2007)

I have 16 of the 2500 mah Energizers about 1 1/2 years old. The have been cycled maybe 30 times. They have been well cared for. I charged them all up and let them sit for a week. Most were in the 12 to 15 hundred area while three of them made it to 2200 mah, one was almost totally dead. I threw them all out.:thumbsdow


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## PlayboyJoeShmoe (Jun 11, 2007)

If you say the Chinese ones are good.... and if one more person confirms it...
I'll get some of them for my GPSr.

Otherwise I'm going for Hybrids!


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## cave dave (Jun 11, 2007)

cave dave said:


> I did a self-discharge test on my Energizer 2500s. I charged them then stored them for 30days before the test.
> 
> 1) 2100 mAh, blue label
> 2) 1900 mAh, blue label
> ...


I updated the chart with the kind of label. The best and worse were blues, and the blacks in the middle. Small sample but I don't trust the blacks either.


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## PlayboyJoeShmoe (Jun 11, 2007)

If not great at least the black labels are somewhat consistent....


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## WildChild (Jun 12, 2007)

I'm not completely satisfied with Chinese Energizer 2500 mAh. Those I have self-discharge faster than my old Duracell 1800 mAh and they are not well balanced (after 3 weeks, 1 reads 1.27V while the other reads 1.29V). My Duracell 1800 mAh and all the Eneloop I have are almost perfetly matched in the same batches.


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## MrAl (Jun 12, 2007)

Hi again,

I just checked my Kodak low self discharge type cells and they all read
good after a month, fairly high 1.323v each approximately. I dont go
by voltage alone usually, but with a bad cell (like the Energizer 2500s)
they go down fast and you can measure it easily with a meter. By now
the Energizers would have measured 0.9v or something like that.

As i had said before, Energizer simply needs to come out with a low self
discharge of their own and they will surely grab a chunk of the market
without resorting to shipping inferior products that by now they must
surely be aware of. I would definitely buy a set of Energizer low self
discharge cells even though i had problems with the 2500 cells, because
i know their other products were usually ok. It's just the 2500 cells they
need to stop selling.


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## cave dave (Jun 12, 2007)

I think its a battery Co. conspiracy to make bad batteries so that people keep on using those profitable Alkalines! Energizer 2500's do seem to be the dominant rechargable battery on the market right now. :thinking:
BTW the bunny 2500's were Sanyo 2500's relabeled right? What other brands were just as bad?

I'll put my tinfoil hat on and go away now :tinfoil:


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## PlayboyJoeShmoe (Jun 12, 2007)

Er, Uh it ain't just Energizer 2500. I have/had some dead 2100s.

Also a few questionable Duracell 2500, and one or two Rayovac 1800.

It's an equal opportunity screw up!

I have 9 Rayovac Hybrid in my M*g85 and 6 running a MC bulb in another light that haven't been charged in at least a month. Gonna check them next.

Ahh! 1.310 to 1.316 in the 6AA/MC bulb light and 1.303 to 1.307 w/one at 1.315 in the M85 MUCH better!


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## PlayboyJoeShmoe (Jun 13, 2007)

Another Energizer 2500HR bites the dust. It's fairly telling when a given battery shows <1.0V when others in the group show >1.3V

This leaves me with three good pairs of E2500. Got a dead pile of three pair too.

I gotta get some more Hybrids. So far I see NOTHING to dislike about 'em.


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## zipplet (Jun 13, 2007)

*sigh* all these replies make me wonder how long mine have left... I just hope I notice before something bad happens such as them overheating while on charge.

I am glad I am moving to eneloops


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## PlayboyJoeShmoe (Jun 13, 2007)

I don't know that they do anything TOO funky in charge mode. My C Crane Quick Charger SEEMS to be at least SORT of independent.

I just know that when my M*g85 used to have 2100 I'd pick it up and often it would be dim. Ditto many of my other "hotwires".

And I have several of the 8 battery cases from Frys. I have a system in using the batteries in my GPSr. And every now and then the GPSr takes a dump because ANOTHER battery bit the dust.

I don't know about Eneloops. I haven't had $ when I've seen them.

But so far Rayovac Hybrids are working well for me!


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## europium (Jun 13, 2007)

bfg9000 said:


> I'd get two of the highly rated Energizer 15-minute charger kits. They each come with four of the good 2200s and then you could have eight cells (even Eneloops) charged up in 15-20 minutes.


This is exactly what I did. I was so pleased with my first E-15, and learning about the awful performance of the many different kinds of 2500+ mAh batteries, went and bought another E-15 to have a backup charger as well as to get 4 additional 2200mAh Energizers. 

The only other NiMH rechargeables I have bought have been Sanyo eneloops. 

Eu


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## PlayboyJoeShmoe (Jun 13, 2007)

When I got an Energizer 15min charger I could swear that 2050s were in the package...

There are 4 of them around here somewhere. Some 1850s too.

The "good" E2500 that were in my GPSr today are doing great.


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## MrAl (Jun 14, 2007)

Hi again,

When i got by Energizer 15 minute charger it came with four 2200 cells
and i was a little disappointed that they were not 2500 cells. Now after
finding out about the 2500 cells i am happy it came with 2200's instead !


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## PlayboyJoeShmoe (Jun 14, 2007)

I was digging around in my "flashlight" cabinet and found four E 2500 that I had wrapped a paper around saying "Showing 1.46V 11-25-06

I'm doing cycles of them on my C Crane. They all started <1.0

Any bets whether they'll be ok?

EDIT> On the second discharge cycle they aren't nosediving at least!


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## radellaf (Jun 15, 2007)

After going through my whole motley stock of AA and AAA NiMH with the Maha 9000, all the 2500 Energizers were tossed for total 0v self disch over my one month test period. Plenty others went, too, but all were much older (3 yrs or more).
I am trying the 1000mAh duracell AAAs now in a MuVo MP3 player (65mA) and a 3W 3AAA DD Brinkmann). The MP3 player is very forgiving. It'll run off some 650mAh rayovac AAAs that are so high impedance (150mOhm) that a lot of chargers won't touch 'em (energizer 1h or maha 9000).

The little $5 (w/2 AA) Digital Concepts charger is ok for them (or the 1000mAh) as it runs at 100mA. Don't know how it's supposed to charge the 2Ah AAs that come with it. A 28-hour charge?

FWIW, those "2 Ah" digital concepts cells are running about 1.6 Ah on the Maha.


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## Learjet (Jun 15, 2007)

I've had a horrible time with all the 2500mah Energizers I've bought over the last year or so. They all lose any useful charge in a few days. Even the latest ones I bought for my sister's camera are useless. Eneloops for me from now on.


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## Beacon of Light (Jun 15, 2007)

Bah, I took my coupons and bought an 8 pack of AAA's (which turned out to be made in China but all the 850mah AAA's always worked as expected with no issues) and the AA's which as stated above are made in Japan. Right out of the package a few were 1.2x volts and 2 were approx .96 volts (bad sign and the reason I sent the ones back to Energizer). I haven't had them long enough to see how fast they are discharging. Most likely I will run them down after use and bring em back to Wal-Mart for the 4-packs or hopefull get the cash and spend it on hybrids.


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## PlayboyJoeShmoe (Jun 15, 2007)

The four E 2500 mentioned SEEM to be ok. Further testing is in order.

I'm going to get at least 8 more Hybrids next time at Wallyworld!


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## n3eg (Jun 16, 2007)

I got one of the first packs of 8 I could find when they came out. They now all have high self-discharge, and have been replaced with Hybrids. It's amazing what Hybrids will do in a Black&Decker 4-AA cordless screwdriver...


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## PlayboyJoeShmoe (Jun 16, 2007)

Added two Duracell 2500 HR to the growing pile of dead NimH.

The four E 2500 not touched since Nov '06 seem to be just fine for now....


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## SilverFox (Jun 16, 2007)

I might just add that there is a standard test for charge retention.

You charge the cells at room temperature, and store them at room temperature for 28 days. You then do a discharge at a 0.2C rate to 1.0 volts. If the discharge lasts longer than 3 hours, the cell is good.

That means that the acceptable self discharge rate is 2% per day. 

To me, this seems generous, but if you send your cells in, Energizer may run this test on them and find them not as bad as you think they are. However, this does give us something to compare to.

Tom


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## PlayboyJoeShmoe (Jun 16, 2007)

I don't have an honest discharger. I know not what the C Crane does.

But "good" batteries will take quite a while to discharge, and bad ones go pretty fast.

Also when I put a pair in my GPSr and it tells me less than half chrarge shows or it doesn't come on at all they be BAD!


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## paulr (Jun 16, 2007)

I just bougt a dozen new Eneloops from Battery Bob. I still have lots of Sanyo and Energizer 2500's, some with fast self-discharge and some without. I just no longer have the patience to deal with separating them out, keeping track etc. I dunno what to do with them either. I'm tempted to just chuck them all in the battery recycling box at work, including the good ones.


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## Bones (Jun 17, 2007)

paulr said:


> I'm tempted to just chuck them all in the battery recycling box at work, including the good ones.



Why not raise a little hell? Odds are a simple telephone call will net you the small satisfaction of at least 10 dollars in coupons. Not bad for 5 minutes of your time. Those members that have returned their cells have received considerably more.

I wouldn't worry about just returning the bad ones, especially if you're just going to toss them anyway. If they find a few goods ones, it can only give them grounds to reduce the refund.

I'm just now in the process of packing up two dozen of the damn things to be returned for 'testing' before they issue my refund.

Since I too have replaced their cells with Eneloops, I will probably end up using their coupons as stocking stuffers. Regardless, it's still more satisfying than just letting the issue slide.

Toll Free:

1-800-383-7323 (It's the same number for Canadians as well.)

http://www.energizer.com/

http://www.energizercanada.ca/


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## paulr (Jun 17, 2007)

Yeah I have a bunch of energizers but a larger number of green wrapper (industrial) Sanyos which Energizer isn't responsible for. Batterystation (where I bought the Sanyos) said I could return them but it's been a while, and they don't carry Eneloops (I dunno why) to exchange for. 

The PITA about the 2500's and "testing" is that none of them self-discharge quickly when they are new. They DEVELOP the problem after you've used them a while. So even the ones that test good today are likely to become duds in the future. That means even a cell that tests good is not really reliable. I just don't want to deal with constant testing and re-testing.


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## Ares (Jun 17, 2007)

Ha, I was just testing some of my batteries today, as I hadn't charged any of them in awhile. All my Energizer 2500's are completely dead and barely have any charge whatsoever. They seem to do this a lot lately. I've had them for about a year. I have some Duracell 2650's that are working fine, though. But I may not have had them long enough. I also have some old Sony 1800's that came with a CD player of mine about 5 years ago. They pretty much work just as well as they used to. The Energizers don't seem last very long, though...

My general brand preference is the Eneloops, Rayovac Hybrids, Powerex, and these Duracells (so far). Probably in that order. I have noticed that the Energizer 2200's perform a bit better, but I still prefer the other brands.

My charger is a Maha, and I generally use the slow charge. I recommend against using the Energizer 15 minute charger. It will eat your batteries.


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## SilverFox (Jun 18, 2007)

Hello Ares,

Welcome to CPF.

Contact Energizer and let them know you are having problems with their 2500 mAh cells. They still don't, or acknowledge, that there is a problem with these cells. The more people that call in, the better chance they may figure it out.

As far as the 15 minute chargers go, they seem to work a lot better with cells of 2000 mAh capacity or below. However, if you need cells in a hurry, a 5 minute charge will have you up and running fast, and the cells won't even warm up.

Tom


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## Lightingguy321 (Jul 2, 2007)

Word to the wise if you do buy Energizers still, only buy ones from China, which seems to make a really good rechargeable. The way to identify Chinese Energizer 2500s is to look at the top seal, if it is black it is chinese, also if the label is a shiny metallic color it is Chinese. The japanese energizers are terrible,.


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## PlayboyJoeShmoe (Jul 2, 2007)

Yet ANOTHER pair of E 2500 HR (Japan) that gave me indications that they were ok DID NOT GO THE DISTANCE!

I MAY try Chinese Energizers, but I'm TURNED OFF of high mAh NimH!!!

Hmmm... I just called Energizer and explained my dis-satifaction. I will be sent a $15 coupon and will TRY Chinese 2500 with it.


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## ltiu (Jul 2, 2007)

I irresistibly bought some Sony CycleEnergy 2500 mAh yesterday with the HR stamp in the rear and Made in Japan mark on the packaging. Let's see how far they go.


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## bfg9000 (Jul 3, 2007)

Lightingguy321 said:


> Word to the wise if you do buy Energizers still, only buy ones from China, which seems to make a really good rechargeable. The way to identify Chinese Energizer 2500s is to look at the top seal, if it is black it is chinese, also if the label is a shiny metallic color it is Chinese. The japanese energizers are terrible,.


 The black-top China ones don't have as high capacity as good Green-top Japan ones, really no better than Eneloops even. The problem with the Japan ones is of course they can go bad after relatively few cycles, but they are very high-performance while they last...

They do make fine Lithium cells and 15-minute chargers (great for use in the car), so I sure wouldn't bother wasting a refund coupon on Made in China 2500s.


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## Robocop (Jul 3, 2007)

After reading most of this thread I decided to check my 2500s and most of them are dead or close to it. It kind of reminds me of the old saying that stated..."be careful what you wish for you might get it"....I knew these higher capacity figures always improving sounded too good to be true.

Is there a physical limit to the actual size of the AA that determines the capacity of the NimH cell or is it the internal chemistry that limits it? I am curious as to how a few years back the same physical size cell had a much lower capacity.....what did they change to get the higher numbers anyway?

Maybe bigger is not always better as my lower capacity Rayovac Hybrids are doing just incredible thus far......this may turn out to be a very costly error for Energizer.


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## Timaxe (Jul 3, 2007)

I had a set of 4 of these Energizer 2500mAh batteries for use in my camera flash (420EX).

When I first picked them up, they worked great. But they finally got to the point where they were unable to power the flash within a day or two of charging, even without use. It seemed that the cells should have lasted a bit longer than 1 year... But I wasn't sure what was going on until I saw this thread today.

I replaced them about 2 months ago, before seeing this thread, but still have the old batteries around somewhere. I won't be able to look for them until august, but I think they might have been the ones with green paper. I'll see if I can find a friend with a multimeter, or if I can find my trusty old Fluke that's been missing for a year...

The new batteries I picked up are the made in China Energizer 2500's. I haven't run them through more than 2-3 cycles yet, but here is to hoping they hold up better.


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## cam94z28 (Jul 4, 2007)

I'm happy with my Duracell 2650mAH. I have 4, all of which are still reading about 1.37v after 2 weeks sitting idle, dead on consistant voltage between all of them. They've probably been through 40-50 cycles on a 1hr Rayovac PS4 Charger. Mine read AA/HR6/DC1500 NiMH/1.2v on the label, but nothing on the bottom, so I'm not sure if these are Sanyo.


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## barkingmad (Jul 4, 2007)

cam94z28 said:


> I'm happy with my Duracell 2650mAH. I have 4, all of which are still reading about 1.37v after 2 weeks sitting idle, dead on consistant voltage between all of them. They've probably been through 40-50 cycles on a 1hr Rayovac PS4 Charger. Mine read AA/HR6/DC1500 NiMH/1.2v on the label, but nothing on the bottom, so I'm not sure if these are Sanyo.


 
Just testing the voltage is not really that accurate... you would either need to use something like a ZTS battery tester that applies a load to give an indication of remaining capacity or dischage them using something like a Maha MH-C9000 or CBA-II tester.

My guess is after 2 weeks they have probably *actually* lost 20-40%+ of their capacity.


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## SilverFox (Jul 4, 2007)

Hello Barkingmad,

Actually, healthy cells after 14 days of room temperature storage only loose 8 - 12% of their initial capacity.

Tom


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## BlackDecker (Jul 4, 2007)

I've used enough Energizer 2500's now to confirm that all the green top (Japan) made ones are garbage. I'm buying nothing but Sanyo Eneloops from now on.


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## barkingmad (Jul 4, 2007)

SilverFox said:


> Hello Barkingmad,
> 
> Actually, healthy cells after 14 days of room temperature storage only loose 8 - 12% of their initial capacity.
> 
> Tom


 
I was just going off the official Energizer data - they claim about 30% loss over 30 days at 20 degrees C.

Of the cells I have tested the discharge is not linear - instead they tend to lose more in the first hours / days and it tails off.

Incidentally they also show a 60% discharge in just 30 days when stored at 40 degrees C.


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## SilverFox (Jul 4, 2007)

Hello Barkingmad,

I have tried over and over again to duplicate the Energizer data - without success. I decided that one of two things have happened. The data I was comparing to was presented in 2001, so it could be that the chemistry has improved since then. Or, Energizer is known to do accelerated testing and project results. If they took the discharge rate over the first day and projected that self discharge rate, you may come close to their results.

In actual testing with a variety of brands, including Energizer - but excluding the 2500 mAh cells..., 30 days gets you into the 15 - 20% loss range.

Keep in mind that I am testing a limited selection of healthy cells, and I seem to have a very strict definition of healthy. I have only checked a couple of hundred cells, so I will also add the standard disclaimer... Your mileage may vary.

Tom


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## PlayboyJoeShmoe (Jul 4, 2007)

Checking voltage gives me a pretty good idea of what shape my batteries are in. All the ones I have marked as bad lose .20 to .30 after just about 24 hours. Many check at 1.25ish

Good ones will have at least 1.35 to 1.39.

Now this isn't absolute as I had a pair of E 2500 show good in my GPSr but didn't last all day.

Next time I get to Walmart I am at least getting 4 Eneloops for GPSr testing.

I think I'll borrow the Hybrids from one of my hotrod lights for tomorrow and friday testing.

edit: ahhhh.... I got 6 hybrids out of one of my lights. They show between 1.306 and 1.310. I think I'll run one pair as is tomorrow.

edit 2: All show between high 6s and low 7s for flash amps!


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## N162E (Jul 4, 2007)

SilverFox said:


> I might just add that there is a standard test for charge retention.
> 
> You charge the cells at room temperature, and store them at room temperature for 28 days. You then do a discharge at a 0.2C rate to 1.0 volts. If the discharge lasts longer than 3 hours, the cell is good.
> 
> ...


My math on that one works out to more like 1.4%


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## barkingmad (Jul 5, 2007)

Basically many normal NiMH cells will lose up to 10-15% in the first 6-12 days (the discharge rate tends to be highest at the start) wheras a LSD NiMH cell (Hybrio, Eneloop etc.) will lose nearer 10-15% in 6-12 months!

The other issue is that some NiMH cells seem to fare FAR worse than others with self-discharge - some losing far more!

Hopefully the capacity of LSD cells will get closer to that of normal cells (although it's typically within 20-30% already) and then there really will be little point in older style cells.


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## PlayboyJoeShmoe (Jul 5, 2007)

I found out tonight when buying 4 Eneloops and 4 Hybrids that the $15 coupon Energizer is sending me will get me 4 new batteries to replace my 7.

That is unless I throw out some cash with it to get 8 or more.

Hybrids are actually a better deal at almost $2 less for 4!


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## barkingmad (Jul 6, 2007)

PlayboyJoeShmoe said:


> I found out tonight when buying 4 Eneloops and 4 Hybrids that the $15 coupon Energizer is sending me will get me 4 new batteries to replace my 7.
> 
> That is unless I throw out some cash with it to get 8 or more.
> 
> Hybrids are actually a better deal at almost $2 less for 4!


 
Not sure I understand - are you saying the coupon will only buy you 4 new 'normal' Energizer NiMH batteries instead of the 7 that are bad?

If the hybrid batteries are lower cost then it's a no-brainer - even if they were slightly more expensive than 'normal' NiMH I would still go with them.


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## PlayboyJoeShmoe (Jul 6, 2007)

A pack of 4 Energizer 2500 made in China is like $10.57 or so. And I'm going to get at least a 4 pack for test purposes. But I have at least 7 Japan built E2500 that are worthless.

Incidently the 4 packs of E2500 say "made in China". The 8 packs still say "Japan".

And the Duracell 2650 pack I examined said "made in Japan". NO THANKS!


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## PlayboyJoeShmoe (Jul 10, 2007)

BOO! HISS! SNARLE!

Energizer sent me a coupon. For any one (1) package of Energizer or Eveready Brand battery or lighting product, maximum value $15.00.

I take this to mean that even were I to carry an 8 pack (which there isn't ANY chance of - they are Japan made) up to the cashier and wanted to add a few bucks it doesn't SEEM possible.

And if I carry a roughly $12 dollar pack of 4 up there, I lose 3 bucks.

Such a deal


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## Lightingguy321 (Jul 11, 2007)

cam94z28 said:


> I'm happy with my Duracell 2650mAH. I have 4, all of which are still reading about 1.37v after 2 weeks sitting idle, dead on consistant voltage between all of them. They've probably been through 40-50 cycles on a 1hr Rayovac PS4 Charger. Mine read AA/HR6/DC1500 NiMH/1.2v on the label, but nothing on the bottom, so I'm not sure if these are Sanyo.



Great point, I also have dropped out of using energizers and are now using Duracell 2650s, I just checked some charge-discharge cycle results on a set that is about 3 or 4 months old, two of the four cells read out a completed charge of 3550mAh. That really says something about how well made the Duracells are. None of my Energizer 2500s can even get close to matching that rating.


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## Lightingguy321 (Jul 11, 2007)

PlayboyJoeShmoe said:


> A pack of 4 Energizer 2500 made in China is like $10.57 or so. And I'm going to get at least a 4 pack for test purposes. But I have at least 7 Japan built E2500 that are worthless.
> 
> Incidently the 4 packs of E2500 say "made in China". The 8 packs still say "Japan".
> 
> And the Duracell 2650 pack I examined said "made in Japan". NO THANKS!



Sorry to say but do not under estimate Duracell 2650s that are made in Japan, they are extremely well made cells that when charged for and cared for correctly can hold almost 1000mAh over their rated capacity. That last sentence is not a joke, I just checked my charger this morning and the mAh that was charged into the battery was 3550mAh.


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## WildChild (Jul 11, 2007)

It seems the Duracell 2650 dies after a few tens of cycles too... I have 12 but they haven't been cycled enough to tell (maybe 10-15 times maximum). But I can tell that the Energizer made in Japan I had died after under 5 cycles... I have some Energizer made in China and they seems to hold well for now (maybe 10 cycles). I also have some Sanyo 2500 mAh (made 12-05) that have no problem after maybe 20 cycles (I know Sanyo said they solved the same problem the Energizer had with cells made in Japan).


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## SilverFox (Jul 11, 2007)

Hello Lightingguy,

Keep in mind that the amount of charge you put in is dependent on the charging rate. At 1C, your cells will be fully charged when you put in around 105%. As the charging rate drops, you need to put more in to get a full charge.

In spite of how much you put in, the real test is how much you get out of the cell. A cells capacity is measured by discharging it.

Tom


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## Lightingguy321 (Jul 11, 2007)

The other thing is that reading was taken off of my BC-900 charger:naughty:. As for the number of cycles those duracells have been through, I think I have used them heavily and cycled them about 30 or 40 times and they are all still pretty strong


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## PlayboyJoeShmoe (Jul 11, 2007)

I don't think my C Crane Quick Charger is particularly hard on cells, nor is my Garmin 2AA GPSr all that hard on them. Still I have at least seven dead Energizer 2500s, A couple of E2100 dead, at least one Rayovac 1800 looking sketchy and three Duracell 2500 crapped out.

I have enough Rayovac Hybrids along with four Eneloops to run my GPSr for two weeks. I have a rather slow but pretty consistent 10 AA charger so I don't think I'll punish them much....

edit: PLEASE NOTE! I have the four bay charger that comes with 4 eneloops from Walmart. I have four R1800 in it and they are slightly warm after about three hours. Also the light came on green and has stayed green. Is this normal? Is this charger junk? And if so why would Sanyo incude it as a package deal?


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## Jerry_S (Jul 12, 2007)

Hi Playboyjoe: i dont have the 4 slot charger, but i do have the 2 slot model which works very well. the 2 slot model charges @ 500ma+ while your 4 slot charges at 300ma. as you are charging 1800mah batteries, that is .17C rate. At low rates the charging effeciency goes down so it will probably take 20 to 30 percent more input to completely charge the batteries. lets just guess that it will need 2400 mah to charge the cells. that is 6 hours at a 300 ma charge rate. patience is required! the sanyo chargers are well designed and have temp prot and dT/dt termination as well as voltage termination. www.sanyo.com.sg has specs on the chargers. Hope this is helpful.
Jerry
edit: make that 8 hours @ 300ma.


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## PlayboyJoeShmoe (Jul 12, 2007)

Okay. I looked in here this morning and the light on the charger was out.

I was in a hurry so I just dumped the batteries on my desk.

Checking them just now (Rayovac 1800) I find from 1.395 to 1.405. So it didn't seem to hurt the batteries.

On a somewhat related note, I ran some Rayovac 1800 that started at 1.30x in my GPSr today. Upon arriving home a little while ago the GPSr showed not much battery remaining. The Eneloops and Hybrids that started at the same voltage showed more life left at the same point.

PS. I looked at Sanyo site and couldn't find the exact charger or combo pack there.


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## Lightingguy321 (Aug 20, 2007)

Handlobraesing said:


> How many cycles have you put on your Duracell 2650mAh? Mine too had fantastic test result, but after a 3-4 dozen cycles, some cells started to lose the full charge overnight. These aren't cells I use, but they're cells I ran some full discharge/charge tests on.



I have probably used these cells for about 30 to 35 cycles and have started to see very slight problems with self discharge. Other wise, they are still preforming extremely well.


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## f1rchifi (Sep 6, 2007)

Does anyone know if the new Sanyo 2300s or the 2100s have the same problem with the 2500s? In an earlier post my problem is that all my Sanyo 2500s (new) don't hold a charge for more than 2 days! After a full charge in a good Sanyo charger, voltage is 1.39 average. The next day it's at 1.18 ave then after all below 0.90.


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## hank (Sep 6, 2007)

My energizer 2500s look fine right out of the charger.

Two weeks later, a couple of them are at 0.9something volts and a couple are at 1.0something volts, and if used at that point they go flat really fast.

This is noticeably worse than my energizer 1650s, for whatever that's worth.

Is there any standard we all could agree on for time on the shelf after charging, to test this?


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## SilverFox (Sep 6, 2007)

Hello F1rchifi,

I am not aware of the same "issues" with the lower capacity cells like the 2300 and 2100 mAh cells.

Keep in mind that one of the definitions of a crap cell is that it is unable to hold its charge. Also, keep in mind that all cells eventually become crap cells...

Tom


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## SilverFox (Sep 6, 2007)

Hello Hank,

The IEC standard for charge retention involves starting with a discharged cell, charging it at 0.1C for 16 hours, leaving it sit for 28 days, then discharging it at 0.2C to 1.0 volt. The cell passes if the discharge lasts longer than 3 hours.

Tom


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## Ron Schroeder (Sep 7, 2007)

Just called in another set of 4. One of the 4 goes down to less than 1.0V in less than 7 days and two go down to about 1.21V in 7 days.

Oh well, another coupon. I can't think of anything other than a 15 minute charger to buy from everready.


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## Handlobraesing (Sep 9, 2007)

WildChild said:


> It seems the Duracell 2650 dies after a few tens of cycles too... I have 12 but they haven't been cycled enough to tell (maybe 10-15 times maximum). But I can tell that the Energizer made in Japan I had died after under 5 cycles... I have some Energizer made in China and they seems to hold well for now (maybe 10 cycles). I also have some Sanyo 2500 mAh (made 12-05) that have no problem after maybe 20 cycles (I know Sanyo said they solved the same problem the Energizer had with cells made in Japan).



Once the self discharge rate among a set of cells used together drift significantly from each other, the highest self discharge cell will quickly degrade. That cell will become dead before the rest when the pack is used, so it will see polarity reversal everytime the pack is discharged till "low battery". 

While deep discharge is not a problem and even good for NiMH when it is done individually, full discharge will almost always end up with one or more polarity reversed cell, reducing the integrity of the entire battery pack.


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## TPA (Sep 12, 2007)

Just want to continue the thread by saying that this is STILL an issue. Before reading the battery forums on here, I had purchased a multipack of the rechargeable Energizer batteries from Sam's around 30 July. Put them all through hard use from 1 Aug to 8 Aug, had charged all of them and put them back in my travel bag. I just pulled the batteries out today (11 September) and tossed them in my digital cam to take a quick pic, but the camera totally refused to power up off the batteries. Nothing, zilch, zero. Not even a chrip or "Please replace batteries" on the LCD screen. While I realise that voltage isn't a great measure of battery capacity/life, all but one of the AAs was reading <0.9 volt. The one "decent" AA was reading 1.24v. All were charged with Energizer's 15 minute charger or Energizer's compact charger. I realise these aren't the best, but I'd expect better after a single month. 

Ironically, I have an older 2300 mAh Energizer battery which has probably been untouched for a few months which measures out at 1.29v. 

I have a Maha C9000 and Eneloops on order from Thomas Distributing, will see what the C9000 shows when it arrives. Never tried the Enerloops before (never heard of them prior to poking around here on CPF), but looking forward to them. At the very least, I have no plans to buy Energizer rechargeable batteries for some time.

Also, I wanted to add a hypothesis on why we're seeing such failures with these (and larger mAh) batteries. I'm drawn to the technology of lead-acid batteries. You have the traditional "deep cycle" lead acid batteries, such as those used on forklifts and as "house" batteries on boats/RVs. You then have the automotive starter batteries. The difference between the two comes from how thick their plates are. The thicker the plates, the more durable the battery is (allowing it to reach deep discharges with less damage), while the starter batteries have thinner, but more plates to get those high "cranking" amps. Indeed, this appears to be what we're seeing with these batteries as well. Initial reports on the 2500 Energizers all seem to praise the high capacity and how well they perform on high drain applications/abuse, but after awhile they just don't work. This is how you'd expect a car battery to respond if you threw it into a deep-cycle application. If this is the case, the easy answer for Energizer is to bring back the lower capacities and advertise them as "long life" or as being more durable than the thin-plate batteries on the market. Maybe someone with more knowledge than I can elaborate on this and could explain the differences between traditional NiMH and hybrids as well.


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## Cnote (Sep 12, 2007)

Did they say anything about fixing the problem, like fixing the 2500mAh cells?


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## Solent Guy (Sep 12, 2007)

Hi all, just to add my tuppence worth, here in the UK, the most common types of batteries on sale are either Uniross or Energizer - well for those that don't know Uniross well, lets just say that last year I bought a 4 2500mA and a lot of 2700mA Uniross black and silver types - they are all now living in a dustbin!!!! In short Uniross suck!

They suffered from what I call RSD (rapid self discharge) rapid being a few days from full (!!!) charge to flat and this was just from sitting on a shelf!
It seems the Energizer and other makes suffer from this - the common factor being a rating of 2300 or higher.

Reading on another thread it would seem that 2000mA or thereabouts is the limit for AA batteries. Anything above this and it seems that the construction of the cell is 'compromised' in some way.

Another idea I have is maybe the makers are trying to get people to buy or replace batteries more often then they would normally do, or are there fake batteries on the market?

Anyway I have noticed that Eneloop and Hybrio (Uniross) are limited to a rating of 2000mA and 2100mA - bet there is a good reason for this .


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## hank (Sep 12, 2007)

Hmph, I emailed Energizer saying I had some 2500s, giving the stamped lot number, didn't even say how many were failing; reply email said they're sending a $10 coupon, without inquiring how many I had go bad.


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## WildChild (Sep 12, 2007)

hank said:


> Hmph, I emailed Energizer saying I had some 2500s, giving the stamped lot number, didn't even say how many were failing; reply email said they're sending a $10 coupon, without inquiring how many I had go bad.



lol I had about 8 energizer completely replaced for free and 6 duracell replaced by 12 for 4$ without having to return them. You're better telling them how many bad cells you have.


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## WildChild (Oct 21, 2007)

I just found 4 Sanyo 2500 mAh showing signs of high-self discharge. They have under 20 cycles...  Date code: 05-12-XX


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## eav2k (Oct 26, 2007)

I just used the first of my $10 coupons from Energizer, I had been holding out in the hope Energizer would start selling some form of LSD battery. Got a pack of 8 AA Lithiums at Walmart. Not really happy doing this, I would prefer not to get any further non rechargeable cells; and I am not going to get more of the same 2500 nimh cells until they are fixed. 

It seems to me that a class action suite against Energizer would be a reasonable course of action. What do you think?


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## jbierling (Oct 26, 2007)

WildChild said:


> I just found 4 Sanyo 2500 mAh showing signs of high-self discharge. They have under 20 cycles...  Date code: 05-12-XX



Mine have quite a bit more than 20 cycles, but they self discharge way too fast.

-Joel


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## hank (Nov 4, 2007)

The four Energizer 2500s I have ready to recycle all did charge up to 1.35v on the CCrane charger, measured after they'd fully charged, but after a week they are down to .81, .42, .91 and .87v.


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## cerbie (Nov 4, 2007)

I've been using an 8-pack of 2500mAh cells for awhile. 5 of the 8 are dead, such that they would charge OK, read OK, but within the day, read under 1v resting, and take no loads. I'm still using the 3 that 'survived'. There wasn't any consistency in how they were used that can explain it.


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## MrAl (Nov 4, 2007)

I had trouble with my 2500's and couldnt use them for anything so i called
Energizer and they sent me a coupon for 10 dollars. I was able to use it
to get cells that cost 10.50 however, and i got four AAA size instead of
another batch of louzy 2500's.

Anyway, i also have a shaver where i wanted to get away from replacing
the older NiCd cells when it went bad on me, so i replaced the cells
with NiMH cells which were far higher rated than the old NiCds. They worked
very well for a while; for about 6 months. They started to die because
i had them on constant charge for all that time, although it was fairly
low current (about 90ma).

Then one day i was talking to Tom and he suggested that i try using the
old 2500's for the shaver, since they have high self discharge and the
charger for the shaver uses a constant charge. This idea worked great,
and now i can use my shaver again without having to get those tiny little
NiCd cells that came with it. I ordered a two AA size cell holder and wired
it into the shaver where the old cells used to go. This way i can use
the charger for the shaver or in a pinch take them out and use the Energizer
15 minute charger and be ready to shave in around 15 minutes.
Anyone else that runs into this problem i have to recommend doing this as
the shaver runs really nice off of high power NiMH cells. Just have to watch
out for the charger as it charges constantly so if you want your cells to last
you cant leave it on charge for 24/7.


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## tvodrd (Nov 5, 2007)

I've been running my mouse on 2500's for a few months now. I have 8 cells total, and the mouse (early Logitec cordless optical) seems to run a week or better on a pair. I'm using the Energizer charger I bought with the first 4 at the grocery store. Charger is weird as orange light comes on when I plug it in and goes out when they're charged. (I like to see green LED's on my chargers when they're done.) :shrug:

Larry


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## Phlack (Jul 29, 2008)

Looks like the 2450s are out. Are they working well in comparison?

-Mike


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## cy (Jul 30, 2008)

after scoring 5 packages(8 ea) of enloops ...

have retired all my 2500 Energizers.... out of 48+ cells, might have 8 that still holds charge.


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