# I love incandescent flashlight much more than LED flashlights,how about you?



## flashlightist

I love incandescent flashlight much more than LED flashlights,

incandescent bulb gives warm light like the sun, while LED gives the cold light that I dont like


and I also love HID flashlight very much, it feels like a small solar torch

my friend gave me a custom HID, He told me it's smallest in the world.

I love it so much although I don't believe it's smallest.




Startup it takes a while






how about you?


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## fivemega

flashlightist said:


> incandescent bulb gives warm light like the sun, while LED gives the cold light that I dont like



*[size=+1]I am not alone.[/size]*


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## Vesper

I definitely prefer the light from an incandescent much more, but LED wins on everything else.


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## Echo63

I prefer incandescent light too - although still prefer LED for runtime, dimmability, shock resistance, and multi voltage ability (running liion and primary in the same light)

The Short Arc Xenon in my Maxabeam is very nice light too - almost daylight (similar to a camera flash)


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## yifu

Not all LEDs are cool white you know, you get get the daylight neutral white using a 4500K Nichia HiCRi 219 or the sunset warmth using a warm white high CRI. I love incans, but not for their warmth (warm white HiCRI LEDs can do that with triple the runtime) but because it, along with HIDs feel real, unlike solid state lighting. There's just something great about watching a filament glow, electrodes sparking etc as opposed to "flick a switch and let there be light" so of thing.

I guess this is why the majority of high end watches are mechanical, not electric, as a lot of people appreciate the more "realistic" feel of them, or why vinyl is still popular among audiophile circles etc.


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## HotWire

I usually reach for a handy incandescent light, but will use LEDs for longer runtimes. Color rendition and warm hands are 2 good reasons to continue with incandescent flashlights.


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## Brigadier

Color rendition and outdoor depth of field are owned by incans.


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## yifu

Brigadier said:


> Color rendition and outdoor depth of field are owned by incans.


This is actually a contentious and subjective point. Most of the incans in use today are actually halogen (traditional incans are banned in many countries, including Australia). Halogens have a Ra of 94-96, which is very close to the 92 typical CRI of high CRI LEDs. About depth of field, it's a subjective point and for my purposes, a ~8000K bluish HID allows me to see the furtherest, as most of the light is reflected back as opposed to being absorbed by browns/greens etc.


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## Daekar

I am of two minds on this, which I don't doubt will be rearranged once Matt finishes the triple Nichia P60 dropins, but right now my favorite light is my poor-mans M4 with a lumensfactory bulb and an AW soft start 3-level switch. The only disadvantage is the runtime, which really doesn't matter since I use it as a toy. The color and... well, things just look better to me with the LF bulb even if the competing LED has more power. I am definitely in the camp that appreciates both LEDs and our beloved hotwires.


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## kaichu dento

flashlightist said:


> I love incandescent flashlight much more than LED flashlights,
> 
> incandescent bulb gives warm light like the sun, while LED gives the cold light that I don't like


You haven't been around very long it appears - get some premium emitters to compare against and even though you may still love your incans, as many of us do, you'll find that the warm>cold scenario just isn't a reality based perspective at this late date.

A good place to start might be a light with an hCRI XP-G - very, very incan-like and impossible not to love, if you love incans.


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## liveris flashlights

I love them too. They have better throw.


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## andyw513

I really dig incandescent lights, if not more, than led lighting. I use incan at work, mostly for being able to see things better and make out objects in the yellow-tinged hue that an incandescent can produce. While I also enjoy led, the warm tinted ones are by far my favorite, simply because they can almost accurately reproduce an incandescent light in value, while saving some duly necessary battery power.


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## Brigadier

yifu said:


> This is actually a contentious and subjective point.



Not really. It is pretty much universally agreed upon on this forum.


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## Illum

Incandescents, driven correctly, is very lovable. 
Easily lovable even... I've found old love from it running the P90 with 2x17500s. LEDs still can't compare in the quality of its output. But runtime is... ahh, LEDs still have their advantages


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## fishndad

liveris flashlights said:


> I love them too. They have better throw.



I dont think you have anyidea what your talking about.
a mag4d for example (incon) can barely outthrow a 2AA quark.
go to the web and look at some beamshots.I.E. Goingear has plenty.After you do so please feel 
free to lead me to some examples of what incon can outthrow an LED.Ill be waiting.


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## Brigadier

I have 2 M6's. One with a Malkoff MD60 vs one with an MN21 - Sorry, the the MN21 throws further. And whatever is illuminated is much more realistic with the MN21.



fishndad said:


> I dont think you have anyidea what your talking about.
> a mag4d for example (incon) can barely outthrow a 2AA quark.
> go to the web and look at some beamshots.I.E. Goingear has plenty.After you do so please feel
> free to lead me to some examples of what incon can outthrow an LED.Ill be waiting.


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## fishndad

Brigadier said:


> I have 2 M6's. One with a Malkoff MD60 vs one with an MN21 - Sorry, the the MN21 throws further. And whatever is illuminated is much more realistic with the MN21.



look your not getting it guys,Light reguardless of the source,is light.It is bound by the laws of physics.
The concentrated amount of light produced by a source will only travel until refraction,reflection and
disipation has sufficiently reduced the concentration of particles below a level unseen by the human eye.
Incondescent light particles do not travel further than any other light particle.
PERHAPS THE LAWS OF PHYSICS DO NOT APPLY IN YOUR LIGHTS!


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## RedForest UK

Incan bulbs will however throw further with the same output due to the nature of the beam angle and surface brightness of a filament. It's easier to collimate. I have incan P60 drop-ins from DX which pull 2amps and only put out 120 lumens, but they will outthrow my 3 amp 750 lumen XM-L drop-ins or my XR-Es.

The whole tint thing won't be an issue for long I don't think though, LEDs are already pretty close to replicating incan tints and they will only improve.


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## Brigadier

don't know where you went to school, but last I checked light was a wave, not a particle. At least that is what they taught in engineering school in Physics class.



fishndad said:


> look your not getting it guys,Light reguardless of the source,is light.It is bound by the laws of physics.
> The concentrated amount of light produced by a source will only travel until refraction,reflection and
> disipation has sufficiently reduced the concentration of particles below a level unseen by the human eye.
> Incondescent light particles do not travel further than any other light particle.
> PERHAPS THE LAWS OF PHYSICS DO NOT APPLY IN YOUR LIGHTS!


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## Brigadier

They may be close in tint, but that does NOT mean they are the same. The incan produces much more of the visible light *spectrum* than a warm _tinted_ LED. I bet if you shined a beam from an incan thru a prism, then the highest CRI LED thru one, you would see a big difference.

But then again, I may be wrong.



RedForest UK said:


> Incan bulbs will however throw further with the same output due to the nature of the beam angle and surface brightness of a filament. It's easier to collimate. I have incan P60 drop-ins from DX which pull 2amps and only put out 120 lumens, but they will outthrow my 3 amp 750 lumen XM-L drop-ins or my XR-Es.
> 
> The whole tint thing won't be an issue for long I don't think though, LEDs are already pretty close to replicating incan tints and they will only improve.


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## Vesper

Brigadier said:


> don't know where you went to school, but last I checked light was a wave, not a particle. At least that is what they taught in engineering school in Physics class.



Light exhibits both wave and particle properties. Get yer money back.


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## RedForest UK

Brigadier said:


> They may be close in tint, but that does NOT mean they are the same. The incan produces much more of the visible light *spectrum* than a warm _tinted_ LED. I bet if you shined a beam from an incan thru a prism, then the highest CRI LED thru one, you would see a big difference.
> 
> But then again, I may be wrong.



Yes incans are full spectrum, but are systematically deficient in short wavelength blue light compared to longer wavelengths. LEDs are naturally monochromatic blue (short wavelength) with the phosphor there to correct to white. This is how I understand it atm: The process of phospher correction generally gives LED light peaks at different wavelengths and it is true that even 90 CRI etc light still shows these peaks across the spectrum, where incans show a steady rise from the shorter wavelengths to longer ones. The human perceptual system only has 3 colour receptor sub-types (Short/Blue + Short-Long/Green and Long-Long/Red. Yellow is a combination of both Long wavelength receptors firing) so this even spread doesn't actually matter as much as you would expect for perceptual accuracy of colour reproduction. This of course depends on the amount of 'peakiness', where the peaks are and how wide they are and how relatively strong etc but LEDs are moving to more and more full spectrum possibilities concurrently with the exploration of using RGB LEDs for accurate colour reproduction, which would still be very 'peaky' objectively, but from our perception indistinguishable from full spectrum.


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## SemiMan

flashlightist said:


> I love incandescent flashlight much more than LED flashlights,
> 
> incandescent bulb gives warm light like the sun, while LED gives the cold light that I dont like
> 
> 
> 
> how about you?





Ahh .... spoken like someone who has never had a truly high CRI warm white LED in a flashlight. But then again, what's not to like about INCAN

- Really warm (unnatural?) light .... like a hot fire, not at all like the sun or moonlight for that matter
- Terrible beam homogeneity .... I like my hotspot looking like a Rorschach test
- Really poor run time
- Inability to be effectively dimmed


But hey it is a personal choice.


Semiman


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## fishndad

Brigadier said:


> don't know where you went to school, but last I checked light was a wave, not a particle. At least that is what they taught in engineering school in Physics class.


light is both wave and particles.and the amount concentrated in a narrow space depending on atmospheric conditions will determine
how far it travels allong with hundreds of other factors.My point was simple if you do not agree than you are only being argumentative.
(light does not travel further becouse its incondescent)


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## TEEJ

I like LEDs better. 

Of course, its a loaded question, as everyone has a SPECIFIC set of examples that THEY use to draw the line used to judge it.

If my incan light is a a surefire P6, and my LED is a Klarus XT11....um, the LED is better in every way.

If my incan is a heavily modified overdriven souped up amp monster, and my LED is a shower head led I got at the check out line at the truck stop, my incan will be better....and so forth.

If "Led" to YOU simply means the weak el cheapo ones at the truck stop, or the DX specials that advertise cold fusion, etc, for a dollar...sure, "Leds have no throw, and are weak, and are blue, etc"

Similarly, if "Incan" to YOU simply means the el cheapo plastic lights you periodically bang on to make them light up again for a bit...then, sure. "Incans have a weak yellow beam and quickly drain your battery and leave you in the dark"

Its a bell curve, and, everyone here's opinion lies on it somewhere.


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## alpg88

looks like some of posters here never had a good inc. light, and compare leds to stock 4d maglite. lmao.
thanks for good laugh


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## fishndad

alpg88 said:


> looks like some of posters here never had a good inc. light, and compare leds to stock 4d maglite. lmao.
> thanks for good laugh



(a good inc.) say putting out 500 lumen in the exact same light, under the exact same conditions,with the exact same color spectrum as an led putting out 500 lumen will throw further?:thinking:
And a pound of steel weighs more than a pound of carbon fiber.
no one is dismissing incon or claiming led is better.Only trying to state throw is not improved by the incan bulb.
Please enlighten me if im wrong,i do accept that others are more educated on the principles of light.
with there engeneering degrees.I am but a humble union electrician who watches big bang and repeats what i here from Raj and Sheldon.


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## kaichu dento

alpg88 said:


> looks like some of posters here never had a good inc. light, and compare leds to stock 4d maglite. lmao.
> thanks for good laugh


Looks like some posters have not yet experienced modern LED's and just want to compare to retina searing blue T1A's. Don't stoop to ridicule of those you disagree with - it's unbecoming and no at all in the spirit of CPF.


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## alpg88

fishndad said:


> (a good inc.) say putting out 500 lumen in the exact same light, under the ,with the exact same color spectrum as an led putting out 500 lumen will throw further?:thinking:
> .



there is no such thing, as exact same conditions, in real world, not even gonna respond to the rest.


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## alpg88

kaichu dento said:


> Looks like some posters have not yet experienced modern LED's and just want to compare to retina searing blue T1A's. Don't stoop to ridicule of those you disagree with - it's unbecoming and no at all in the spirit of CPF.


well lets see, i'm into flashlights for 10+years, posted plenty of builds\experements, have tried majority led\ inc. bulb that are available, so yea, lmao. thanks.


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## kaichu dento

alpg88 said:


> well lets see, i'm into flashlights for 10+years, posted plenty of builds\experiments, have tried majority led\ inc. bulb that are available, so yea, lmao. thanks.


You left out the most important part of my post in your reply - don't stoop to ridicule of those you disagree with - it's unbecoming and not at all in the spirit of CPF. 

Fact of the matter is that some people prefer one over the other because their minds are made up ahead of time and to suggest that the only people who prefer or like LED's are only using a stock Maglite as their point of comparison is childish to say the least. You've got good reasons for your opinions and the rest of us do too, but that's all they are - personal preferences.


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## greatscoot

I like the warmth of the incan over the LED (need to get some nichia's), but run time on the LED. I also had an intereting experience last night when I was driving and don't know what to make of it. When I shine my incan through my windshield I can spotlight anything wwith little or no relfection in the car. The LED does not seem to throw through the windshield and I get a lot of refelcted light back into the car.


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## kaichu dento

greatscoot said:


> I like the warmth of the incan over the LED (need to get some nichia's), but run time on the LED. I also had an interesting experience last night when I was driving and don't know what to make of it. When I shine my incan through my windshield I can spotlight anything with little or no reflection in the car. The LED does not seem to throw through the windshield and I get a lot of reflected light back into the car.


If you haven't tried the hCRI XP-G you may be in for a treat. The first time I tried one I was sitting underneath incandescent lighting and shining my modded V10R under the table, it looked liked a continuation of the overhead lighting.

I'm really curious now your experiment and will give it a try tonight - good chance to pull out all the Surefires - especially my favorite E2E and 9AN!


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## Brigadier

*See my previous post. Surefire M6 vs. M6. Can't get much better than that.
*


TEEJ said:


> I like LEDs better.
> 
> Of course, its a loaded question, as everyone has a SPECIFIC set of examples that THEY use to draw the line used to judge it.
> 
> If my incan light is a a surefire P6, and my LED is a Klarus XT11....um, the LED is better in every way.
> 
> If my incan is a heavily modified overdriven souped up amp monster, and my LED is a shower head led I got at the check out line at the truck stop, my incan will be better....and so forth.
> 
> If "Led" to YOU simply means the weak el cheapo ones at the truck stop, or the DX specials that advertise cold fusion, etc, for a dollar...sure, "Leds have no throw, and are weak, and are blue, etc"
> 
> Similarly, if "Incan" to YOU simply means the el cheapo plastic lights you periodically bang on to make them light up again for a bit...then, sure. "Incans have a weak yellow beam and quickly drain your battery and leave you in the dark"
> 
> Its a bell curve, and, everyone here's opinion lies on it somewhere.



*Agreed

*


alpg88 said:


> looks like some of posters here never had a good inc. light, and compare leds to stock 4d maglite. lmao.
> thanks for good laugh




*BTDT with the two aforementioned M6's. Can't get much closer than that, can you.
Now, you are technically correct - that the lights throw equal distances, but the bluer LED light is refracted more and LESS returns BACK to the user. Add fog/rain/snow and it is even more obvious.

*


fishndad said:


> (a good inc.) say putting out 500 lumen in the exact same light, under the exact same conditions,with the exact same color spectrum as an led putting out 500 lumen will throw further?:thinking:
> And a pound of steel weighs more than a pound of carbon fiber.
> no one is dismissing incon or claiming led is better.Only trying to state throw is not improved by the incan bulb.
> Please enlighten me if im wrong,i do accept that others are more educated on the principles of light.
> with there engeneering degrees.I am but a humble union electrician who watches big bang and repeats what i here from Raj and Sheldon.



*This IS the incan forum. Why are you here instead of the LED forum if for no other reason than to stir up crap?

*


kaichu dento said:


> Looks like some posters have not yet experienced modern LED's and just want to compare to retina searing blue T1A's. Don't stoop to ridicule of those you disagree with - it's unbecoming and no at all in the spirit of CPF.





kaichu dento said:


> You left out the most important part of my post in your reply - don't stoop to ridicule of those you disagree with - it's unbecoming and not at all in the spirit of CPF.
> 
> Fact of the matter is that some people prefer one over the other because their minds are made up ahead of time and to suggest that the only people who prefer or like LED's are only using a stock Maglite as their point of comparison is childish to say the least. You've got good reasons for your opinions and the rest of us do too, but that's all they are - personal preferences.


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## alpg88

kaichu dento said:


> - don't stoop to ridicule of those you disagree with - it's unbecoming and not at all in the spirit of CPF.
> 
> .


i didn't it's led fan boys came here, in inc. thread telling how leds are better, and we have no idea what we talking about, scroll up to see.
btw xp-g hi cri isn't the best example, nichia is.
and 4d maglite example wasn't mine, that is why it made me lmao.


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## Brigadier

And I dare anyone to show me a '140 lumen' LED Turbohead light that will reach out as far as my Surefire 9ANT.


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## eh4

keep loving white hot wires and streams of plasma, and keep checking the improvements of high CRI leds. The 92+CRI 3000K and 4500K LEDs have pretty much satisfied me for now, at least where battery life is any consideration.


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## alpg88

Brigadier said:


> And I dare anyone to show me a '140 lumen' LED Turbohead light that will reach out as far as my Surefire 9ANT.



i,m sure some aspherics can, but they are not nearly as practical.


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## kaichu dento

Brigadier said:


> This IS the incan forum. Why are you here instead of the LED forum if for no other reason than to stir up crap?


Still CPF and there's better done for the cause of continued popularity of incans by staying with facts, allowing open conversation and mellowing out a bit. I know you'd like for anyone who doesn't agree with not to be allowed, but to what benefit? I bet we could have this same conversation in person without you having to get so worked up, so let's keep it that way, even though we're only talking over the forums.

Read the thread title again before continuing to attempt to shut down friendly discourse.


alpg88 said:


> i didn't it's led fan boys came here, in inc. thread telling how leds are better, and we have no idea what we talking about, scroll up to see.
> btw xp-g hi cri isn't the best example, nichia is.
> and 4d maglite example wasn't mine, that is why it made me lmao.


Fanboys suggests that some are blindly protective of their preferred emitter, and as such I've seen this primarily coming from incan-is-best crowd. 

Nichia is not the best example that I've seen so far, as the most incan looking emitters I have come from Cree, particularly my hCRI XP-G, and once again, to state that the best is from Nichia is once again nothing more than an opinion, made appropriate here only because the title of the thread invited comparisons.


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## flashfiend

For color and throw it's hard to beat an incan but for the most part runtime is terrible excepting my FiveMega D26 Socket Kit with Strion bulb. Throw, color, and sufficient runtime for most uses.


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## kaichu dento

greatscoot said:


> ...had an interesting experience last night when I was driving and don't know what to make of it. When I shine my incan through my windshield I can spotlight anything with little or no reflection in the car. The LED does not seem to throw through the windshield and I get a lot of reflected light back into the car.


I took several lights out to the car tonight and tried this with my stock TC-R1, E2E, 9AN, Scorpion, hCRI P4 Clicky, hCRI XP-G Clicky and Nichia 119 Haiku. The worst of all was the cool tinted TC-R1 (as most would suspect) not only because of the tint, but also because its XM-L makes it my floodiest light. Next were the other floody lights, but there seemed to be little advantage to the incans in shining through the windshield aside from their inherently narrower focus.
In retrospect I should have taken the E1e too, as it has a frosted lens and is both floodier with less of a hotspot, and wider than even my TC-R1. 

Then I went outside and started lighting the tops of trees and was surprised when the 9AN (which handily bested my favorite E2E and I also expected to be the best for searching the trees) took back seat to both of the Clicky's. It looked beautiful for all the reasons we love incans, but the extra flood of the Clicky's, Haiku and even the cool (but very high output) TC-R1 made it much easier to see more of what I was looking at. Perceived depth was very good with all lights other than the TC-R1.

Next I did some experiments with shining the lights through a chain-link fence to see if there were any advantages, but the only two opinions I came away with were that cool tints are a no-go and it definitely works better if you're right up to the fence!

I'm going to leave a bunch of the lights in the car and try some more distance comparisons to try and determine what conditions I prefer the incan for. One thing for sure - I love the warmth and even if any of the others go, I have no intentions of ever getting rid of my E2E.


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## flashfiend

I read the whole thread for the first time and this is how I (meaning subjective opinion with some objective observation) see it. I will use the following light sources for comparison (also to show that I have tried various LEDs which people believe will change my view of the world) and will try to identify the host if relevant:

LEDs:

- CREE Neutral XR-E (nailbender P60 drop-in w/ optic)
- CREE Neutral XR-E (Fenix TA21)
- CREE Neutral XP-G 4000K (VanIsleDSM Quad)
- CREE Warm Hi-CRI XP-G 3000K (nailbender D36 drop-in)
- Nichia 219 Neutral Hi-CRI (Oveready Moddoo P60 triple drop-in)
- SST-90 Warm 3000K (nailbender P60 drop-in)
- SST-90 Cool 6500K (nailbender Mag w/ FM deep reflector)
- SST-50 Cool 6500K (nailbender Dereelight DBS pill in DBS host)

Incans:

- Mag85 (w/ FM bi-focal reflector)
- Strion (w/ FM D26/P60 socket)
- Mag5761 (w/ FM v2 Deep Reflector)
- WA1111 (w/ FM D26/P60 Sunlight socket)

Regarding THROW: While it is possible that LEDs can throw light as far as an incan, the incan will have further perceived throw because LEDs are less able to concentrate the available light (excepting aspherics which I have very little experience or interest in). My two best LED throwers have been the DBS, the TA21, and the SST-90 w/ FM Deep, but those had much less perceived throw than even my Strion. Both the Mag85 and the Mag5761 far exceed any of my LEDs in regard to throw but they are biggish lights. 

COLOR: As you can see I have some experience with warm HiCRI and neutral HiCRI LEDs. I have to say that I like them a lot for both color (Warm) and color rendition (Warm and Neutral). The warm XP-G gives off great subjective color and the neutral 219 renders colors with incredible accuracy (no change in color when supplementing ambient light sources). However, my personal preference still leans towards incans. The warm XP-G seems more artificially warm. Colors seem warmer but not in any subjective quality approximating sunlight (a preferred light source). The neutral gives exceptionally accurate color rendition but the overall light it gives, again, just feels very artificial. I realize and explicitly state that this is very subjective but I still prefer the color temperature range given by all my incans over the two HiCRI LEDs and any of the other warm or neutral LEDs I have experienced. 


SPILL, the other incan advantage: Of the configurations I have when comparing similar host setups, the spill from incans are much greater than LEDs. This is not subjective for me, this is objective observation. If I am pointing the light in a particular direction, I see more light on my surroundings with incans vs. LEDs.

RUNTIME: Advantage LED for the most part excepting the Strion as I have previously noted.


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## LGT

While I enjoy using my SF incans ,C2 centurion,E1E and E2E exec, the color from my high CRI Predator is oh so close to those that it almost makes them obsolete. The life of the bulb, durability, and battery consumption are major drawbacks. But I also think that the lack of , I may be a little naive here, circuitry, may make them more reliable in the long run.


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## flashfiend

Forgot about bulb life. Advantage --> LED. Also, LED circuitry and design probably makes them more reliable, not less reliable. 

I am unsure if incans will ever be obsolete for me, but admittedly I've just purchased two 219 triples (still waiting for my Mattaus triple) as replacement/substitute EDC lights.


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## LGT

flashfiend said:


> Forgot about bulb life. Advantage --> LED. Also, LED circuitry and design probably makes them more reliable, not less reliable.
> 
> I am unsure if incans will ever be obsolete for me, but admittedly I've just purchased two 219 triples (still waiting for my Mattaus triple) as replacement/substitute EDC lights.


I didn't say incans will be or are obsolete. One of my favorite lights is my E2E. I just think the less "moving parts", the more reliable the light should be. Given that those being compared are of equal quality.


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## kaichu dento

On the subject of throw, output too needs to be taken into consideration. My TC-R1, while much floodier than my E2E, out throws it by a long shot due to the substantial boost in overall output.

There is such a wide discrepancy in the comparisons between LED lights too. Lately I've noticed my strong preference for whiter lights in general when searching for something, or working in general. However last night while doing some plumbing, it was my warm hCRI XP-G V10R Ti that I ended up using, and the incan-like output made it a joy, especially since I was able to enjoy that tint, while also going higher or lower in output depending on the working distance. Most of the time I was working at a couple of feet, but a few times needed the light up close and there were the 20' shots which required more light as well, readily delivered thanks to the control ring.

Today doing a search I also noticed that while I may generally prefer incan tints at night, I prefer whiter tints during daylight hours. Check it out for yourself and I'm willing to bet that most people will find a change in their preferences between day/night, walking/working.


LGT said:


> One of my favorite lights is my E2E.


Mine too - gotta love an E2E.


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## fyrstormer

Brigadier said:


> don't know where you went to school, but last I checked light was a wave, not a particle. At least that is what they taught in engineering school in Physics class.


*cough*

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wave–particle_duality

The most correct 50-cent definition is that light is a quantized wave, which means it behaves like a cluster of particles, each particle representing one quantum of energy.


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## rookiedaddy

flashlightist said:


> I love incandescent flashlight much more than LED flashlights,
> incandescent bulb gives warm light like the sun, while LED gives the cold light that I dont like
> how about you?


me too... and having to recently swapped a 90-CRI XP-G LED drop-in to HO-6 bulb drop-in makes me (and my SF 6P) feel happier... much happier... :devil:


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## fishndad

I admit to never owning a powerfull incan but ill buy one.I want to be versatile and thats all i ever owner till mabey 5 years ago. my price range $45. to $65.
and i will expect it to at the least perform as well as a $45. Remington i picked up for my son.


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## kaichu dento

fishndad said:


> I admit to never owning a powerfull incan but ill buy one.I want to be versatile and thats all i ever owner till mabey 5 years ago. my price range $45. to $65.
> and i will expect it to at the least perform as well as a $45. Remington i picked up for my son.


You'll love the E2E and it's good place to start. There are some pretty good sales on them from time to time, not to mention their availability in the MarketPlace too.


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## Brigadier

Soooo......you were debating me never having ever owned a powerful incan? :thinking:

Anyway, and easy step into the joy of incans is a Lumensfactory incan. I would look here, and get the configuration you want:

http://www.lighthound.com/Lumens-Factory_c_195.html

http://www.lighthound.com/Lumens-Factory_c_119.html


For a real pocket rocket, get this:

http://www.lighthound.com/Lumens-Factory-Seraph-SP-6-LED-Single-Mode-Flashlight_p_3216.html

and this

http://www.lighthound.com/Lumens-Fa...e-C-P-Z-Series-IMR-Batteries-ONLY_p_2836.html

Diven by a pair of these

http://www.lighthound.com/AW-IMR-18350-700mAh-LiMN-Rechargeable-Lithium-Battery_p_3818.html

or these


http://www.lighthound.com/AW-IMR163...LiMN-Rechargeable-Lithium-Battery_p_2626.html

and WOW!!









fishndad said:


> I admit to never owning a powerfull incan but ill buy one.I want to be versatile and thats all i ever owner till mabey 5 years ago. my price range $45. to $65.
> and i will expect it to at the least perform as well as a $45. Remington i picked up for my son.


----------



## fishndad

Brigadier said:


> Soooo......you were debating me never having ever owned a powerful incan? :thinking:
> 
> Anyway, and easy step into the joy of incans is a Lumensfactory incan. I would look here, and get the configuration you want:
> 
> http://www.lighthound.com/Lumens-Factory_c_195.html
> 
> http://www.lighthound.com/Lumens-Factory_c_119.html
> 
> 
> For a real pocket rocket, get this:
> 
> http://www.lighthound.com/Lumens-Factory-Seraph-SP-6-LED-Single-Mode-Flashlight_p_3216.html
> 
> and this
> 
> http://www.lighthound.com/Lumens-Fa...e-C-P-Z-Series-IMR-Batteries-ONLY_p_2836.html
> 
> Diven by a pair of these
> 
> http://www.lighthound.com/AW-IMR-18350-700mAh-LiMN-Rechargeable-Lithium-Battery_p_3818.html
> 
> or these
> 
> 
> http://www.lighthound.com/AW-IMR163...LiMN-Rechargeable-Lithium-Battery_p_2626.html
> 
> and WOW!!



Done! the pocket rocket you recommend looks sweet for $45. low end of my range very slick of you.
Will call it an early fathersday present.
As for the E2E if i like this model, mabey,who knows you might have a convert.

P.S. who makes the E2E LOL


----------



## kaichu dento

fishndad said:


> As for the E2E if i like this model, maybe, who knows you might have a convert.
> 
> P.S. who makes the E2E LOL


Here's a thread with lots of e-series lights, although they're mostly LED versions,
there's also plenty of E1e and E2E pics as well, both of which are my favorite incans. My E1e is setup as a floody light
with diffusion material on the lens and my E2E is my thrower.


----------



## fishndad

kaichu dento said:


> Here's a thread with lots of e-series lights, although they're mostly LED versions,
> there's also plenty of E1e and E2E pics as well, both of which are my favorite incans. My E1e is setup as a floody light
> with diffusion material on the lens and my E2E is my thrower.



I have a solarforce L2 host on the way.I was going to get an LED drop in but for $20. i will try the incan drop.
the IMR-9 500 drop in was recommended by Brigadier. 
Anything else i should know.
Keep in mind ive never modded or pieced together any light.
So i dont want to spend money for items that dont work well (or at all) together.
Thanks.


----------



## Brigadier

Depending on the length of the solarforce body:

2x123: you will need 2xIMR16340 or 18350
3x123: you will need 2xIMR18500
4x123: you will need 2xIMR18650

To power that lamp assy, and a charger of course.




fishndad said:


> I have a solarforce L2 host on the way.I was going to get an LED drop in but for $20. i will try the incan drop.
> the IMR-9 500 drop in was recommended by Brigadier.
> Anything else i should know.
> Keep in mind ive never modded or pieced together any light.
> So i dont want to spend money for items that dont work well (or at all) together.
> Thanks.


----------



## Old-Lumens

Per the OPs original statement and question


flashlightist said:


> I love incandescent flashlight much more than LED flashlights,
> 
> incandescent bulb gives warm light like the sun, while LED gives the cold light that I dont like
> 
> 
> 
> how about you?


I prefer incandescent for in home lighting and since in TX we can still buy incandescent bulbs, we use them.
I prefer LED for my flashlights. I'm a dummy and I just use what seems best for my eyse. I feel that I can see better with a borderline cool/neutral white led than I can with any incandescent. I just feel it's easier and less strain on my eyes, outdoors at night and that's all I need to know.


----------



## fishndad

Brigadier said:


> Depending on the length of the solarforce body:
> 
> 2x123: you will need 2xIMR16340 or 18350
> 3x123: you will need 2xIMR18500
> 4x123: you will need 2xIMR18650
> 
> To power that lamp assy, and a charger of course.



I got the single 18650 size body coming already have Batts.and charger.

Are you saying a single 18650 will not drive the IMR-9 500? I can order an extinsion tube if need be.

Oh i think i got it 2xRCR123s is around 7.5 to 8 volts vs 1x18650 is only like 4
so im good using my 123s?

Thanks


----------



## lightwater

I haven't any warm LED flashlights. But have installed 4 Philips mr16 10w 3000k & 8 2700k down lights. The 3000k are in a home office & the 2700k are in the lounge/dining & bathroom. I would have put them in the kitchen but they were not quite bright enough. The 2700k do look pretty good next to halogens as both are used at the same time, they have a smidgen more of a pink tone, in this situation the 3000k is a little bit cool. 

If a 2700k LED is available for a flashlight it will have virtually the same colour as a halogen down light.

I have got accustom to the cool LEDs in flashlights & on occasion when I have used an old incandescent I miss that "crisp" light. I also don't miss the Dolphin which has a shocking environmental footprint of batteries!

I can also stick a JB RRT-0 in my pocket but still have a stack of light. I feel the compact LED flashlights these days have so many advantages which we could only dream of not so long ago which far outweighs the few last remaining & soon redundant issues.

One could in the meantime could use a Lee or Rosco gel in the flashlight with a little loss of light.


----------



## Brigadier

ONLY USE IMR BATTERIES WITH THAT LAMP ASSEMBLY!!!!!!!

As per Lumens Factories directions, that lamp pulls too many amps for regular RCR and primaries. 2XIMR16340[RCR123 size] will give about 20 minutes run time. But a wonderful 20 minutes. I use the same set up in a SureFire Z2 as my CCW light as companion to my Beretta 9mm.

If you get the +1 extender, use 2XIMR18500. +2 extender use 2XIMR18650.




fishndad said:


> I got the single 18650 size body coming already have Batts.and charger.
> 
> Are you saying a single 18650 will not drive the IMR-9 500? I can order an extinsion tube if need be.
> 
> Oh i think i got it 2xRCR123s is around 7.5 to 8 volts vs 1x18650 is only like 4
> so im good using my 123s?
> 
> Thanks


----------



## SemiMan

Not trying to stir up more, but wanted to address the issue of "throw".

Adjectives and inconclusive measurements aside, the ability to "throw" is primarily a factor of surface brightness though total output can seem to come into play. After that its all about the size of the optic/reflector.

With the most recent advancements in LEDs, even high CRI warm white LEDs can have surface brightnesses of >50 meganits. This is higher than halogen which is about 1/2 that and even over driven would not achieve 50.

Hence for a similar size and properly designed LED/Incan, the LED is going to out throw it.

Semiman

Most LED lights are designed to be small though


----------



## RedForest UK

You have to also take into account the physical shape/position of an incan filament. Unlike an LED it is actually forward in front of some of the reflector with more than 180 degrees of beam spread. This leads to a higher % of the light emitted hitting the reflector and therefore a higher amount possible to collimate into the central hotspot.


----------



## Brigadier

And throw does you no good if the tint of the beam is affected by environmental conditions to point where the reflections do not make it back to your eyes with enough strength to perceive it.


----------



## fishndad

is incan light more consistsnt in color from bulb to buld?
It seems LEDs very alot.


----------



## Brigadier

In my experience, yes.



fishndad said:


> is incan light more consistsnt in color from bulb to buld?
> It seems LEDs very alot.


----------



## SemiMan

You are making the inaccurate assumption of a reflector as opposed to a TIR optic.


----------



## SemiMan

Incan is very consistent unit to unit ... as long as the same bulb is running at the same power level. WIthout regulation the color temp changes with the battery voltage.


----------



## kaichu dento

fishndad said:


> is incan light more consistent in color from bulb to bulb?
> It seems LEDs vary a lot.


Generally more predictable for a particular bulb, but there can be a bit of variance between
types of bulbs. For more info read the post by SemiMan.
Consistency among LED's is getting better than it used to be, especially if you pick a specific tint bin.
For tint issues alone, incan is more consistent at a given voltage and bulb style, while LED's inherent longevity assures less trouble
with sup-par tints once you've identified a preferred tint.


SemiMan said:


> Incan is very consistent unit to unit ... as long as the same bulb is running at the same power level. Without regulation the color temp changes with the battery voltage.


+1


----------



## LGT

Off thread, but I find it quite interesting that most of the replies here are from long standing members that probably have more experience with incan bulbs. I really enjoy reading posts from those that have been around for a while.


----------



## EspionageStudio.Com

Incandescent is the new black... Ive been a die hard LED fan for quite sometime. Got my hands on a C2 and a modded M2 and i havent been this excited about flashlights since i bought my first surefire L4 years ago.


----------



## Shadowww

flashlightist said:


> incandescent bulb gives warm light like the sun, while LED gives the cold light that I dont like


The problem with your statement of incans being closer to sun is that CCT of sun is in range of 5000K-6500K, which is way closer to neutral-white LEDs than to incandescent bulbs.

On topic, my favorite "color producer" is Nichia 219. Uber-high CRI + tint that is not ill-red like incan bulbs = awesome.


----------



## RedForest UK

SemiMan said:


> You are making the inaccurate assumption of a reflector as opposed to a TIR optic.



I'm not sure it was an entirely 'innacurate' assumption, as most torches using LED or incan use reflectors.

It was certainly an assumption though, and does only apply to reflector based optics.


----------



## run4jc

I love this thread. If we stay true to the OP, it makes for interesting debate and it's good to see so much passion stirred up. Say, "Conservative versus Liberal", or.... "Tube amp versus solid state"(Guitar players or audiophiles) or…automatic, self-winding watch versus quartz digital or, ...."Less filling - tastes great (how many of you remember that?)" - or "Incandescent versus LED" and you'll see the passion stirred up for sure!

I 'discovered' incans about a year ago in this thread. Like I normally do, I went off the deep end and purchased quite a number of lights, bulbs, blah blah, and decided that Incan was "it" and LED was not as good. Over time, that position evolved…
*
May I digress, only briefly? *​ 
I remember selling high-end audio systems and components early in my working career - you know, the $10-20k (and much higher) mega systems. Recorded symphony orchestras with 30 inch per second mastering recorders and high-end tube ‘point source’ microphones. All through high end tube audio components. Ah, that awesome, smooth, soothing analog sound. The very word "analog" invoked an image of 'accurate replica' (and yes, I know that is NOT the definition of analog - I'm talking “audiophile speak”).

We loved pristine vinyl recordings being played on high-end systems, all being input by a phono cartridge, tone arm, and turntable that cost more than most systems of today. As long as they are “pristine.” )

No doubt, there were lousy analog systems in those days, too. Probably more lousy ones than good ones.

Then came solid-state. Integrated circuits. The compact disc. Purists turned up their noses. "Grainy!! Screechy!! Inaccurate!!!" Doesn't sound like the original!! But those new technologies brought more robust electronics (in some cases) and, at an equivalent price point, sometimes equal or better performance. And they got better, and continue to improve, although some audiophile purists will go to their graves resisting solid-state electronics, and faint, integrated circuits!

Sadly, today such high-end analog audio systems are reserved for the more affluent purists, although tube guitar amplifiers (while pricey) remain preferred by many rock and blues guitarists. (I have a couple of really nice tube rigs… )

*Back to Incandescent versus LED, what’s the point? *​ 
In my mind, incandescent has given the LED manufacturers a decent benchmark. Not always better, but for those who love warm tints, something to try and replicate. And like their audio analog counterparts, they continue to be closer to our memories of the ‘original’, while at the same time requiring more power, generating more heat, and (arguably) requiring more care and maintenance. (How many backup 6P lamps do you have? I have 14! And 10 9Ps! And 4 MN03s! And a number of Streamlight and Lumens Factory bulbs in backup – plus a few Carly.)

Granted, not all LED manufacturers seek to replicate the tint of an incandescent light, but those who do are getting better at it. And although it’s already been mentioned, the Nichia high CRI emitters (in 119 and 219 variants) ‘look’ more accurate to me at rendering colors than do any of my incan lights. And there are users out there - many on them (and you know who you are) who PREFER the cool white tints! And that's okay, too...I like them for some applications, and the beauty of this scenario is the fact that we HAVE SUCH CHOICES! 

So the point? I hope incandescent stays with us for a long time! For what they do, they are hard to beat. Warm, soothing tints – very pure (if not necessarily the most ‘accurate.’) And hopefully the LED will continue to evolve and improve…they already give us longer run times, longer life, cooler operation, etc. And as the technology continues to improve, many of us like to dabble in modifying our lights to the newest and greatest LED.

So practice the philosophy seen so often here on this great group of forums – why choose? 

BUY BOTH!!
 ​


----------



## EspionageStudio.Com

Nice post run4jc ±1!


----------



## fishndad

BUY BOTH!!
 
Well i just recieved a Solarforce L2 host today.

I will order the Lumens Factory IMR-9 drop with 2xAW IMR 18350 (as recommended)

Havnt chosen an LED drop yet.

Would like one that will use the IMRs and 500 lumen.

So everything except the drop-ins would be equal.

For know im sticking with neither will out throw the other.


----------



## kaichu dento

run4jc said:


> *May I digress, only briefly? *


You write a lot of great posts, but this one was a joy to read. 

Just in the same manner as you've described people resistance to accepting "new technology which will never be equal to the original" in regards to LED's and HiFi systems, (I got my first CD player when the store selling them only had 5 CD's because there were virtually no titles yet available!) you also mentioned tube vs. solid state and I would have to add digital cameras to the mix.

I'm a dyed in the wool tube fan, particularly 900's and DSL's, but most of the time lately I'm playing through a Boss pedal and getting a better tube sound than a few poorly designed Marshall hybrids offered me years ago. Sure I'd love to have a Bad Cat, but then if I can't afford to replace my Hinderer XM-18 then I guess it'll be a while for the amp too.

I know I'm just reiterating what you said so much better, but technology really does not stand still for any man, even if it may seem to at times - there's just too many people trying to offer the best of both worlds on a continual basis for us not to see the norms of the past become memories for most.


----------



## flashfiend

SemiMan said:


> ...Hence for a similar size and properly designed LED/Incan, the LED is going to out throw it.
> 
> Semiman
> 
> ...



This has never been my perceptible/subjective experience with reflectored LEDs vs. refelctored incans of similar size. As for optics and LEDs, my only experiences with them are multi-emitter lights with optics and a single emitter nailbender Cree XR-E neutral P60 drop-in with 8-degree TIR optic. This optic doesn't even throw as well as a reflectored XR-E in my Fenix TA21 which is similar in size to P60 heads.

As for color rendering, the latest Nichia 219 does seem to surpass incans but it just doesn't feel as pleasant to look at as an incan (this is probably just my version of tube audio vs. solid-state).

Out of curiousity, I'd like to know what incans and LED flashlights you own that you can make comparisons with. I understand that it is hard to argue with the scientific logic of your reasoning but it continues to be defied by my real world experiences on the subject.


----------



## alpg88

flashfiend said:


> Out of curiousity, I'd like to know what incans and LED flashlights you own that you can make comparisons with. I understand that it is hard to argue with the scientific logic of your reasoning but it continues to be defied by my real world experiences on the subject.


I 'd like to know that too, since my experience is quite opposite. I too want to see examples.
If scientific logic doesn't mimic the reality, it worth nothing, for those that live in real world.


----------



## rookiedaddy

flashfiend said:


> This has never been my perceptible/subjective experience with reflectored LEDs vs. refelctored incans of similar size. As for optics and LEDs, my only experiences with them are multi-emitter lights with optics and a single emitter nailbender Cree XR-E neutral P60 drop-in with 8-degree TIR optic. This optic doesn't even throw as well as a reflectored XR-E in my Fenix TA21 which is similar in size to P60 heads.
> 
> As for color rendering, the latest Nichia 219 does seem to surpass incans but it just doesn't feel as pleasant to look at as an incan (this is probably just my version of tube audio vs. solid-state).
> 
> Out of curiousity, I'd like to know what incans and LED flashlights you own that you can make comparisons with. I understand that it is hard to argue with the scientific logic of your reasoning but it continues to be defied by my real world experiences on the subject.


+1
my experience concur with yours!
eye-balling, foggy nite, same reflector size, LED spread, Incan punch thru!


----------



## Brigadier

There's a reason fog lights are not blue..........


----------



## fishndad

rookiedaddy said:


> +1
> my experience concur with yours!
> eye-balling, foggy nite, same reflector size, LED spread, Incan punch thru!



You guys are PUMPING ME UP to order this Luminfactory IMR-9 500 lumen Incan drop.HOORAA


----------



## SemiMan

rookiedaddy said:


> +1
> my experience concur with yours!
> eye-balling, foggy nite, same reflector size, LED spread, Incan punch thru!




I have had Mag's, Surefires, and a range of 50-100W spots over the years. Most of them were given away at one time or another as I just can't stand the poor run time and for me, iffy beam quality most of the time.

Most of the flashlights I own are semi-custom, i.e. repurposed Incan likely replaced with an optic to match what I want it to do, whether its a flood, thrower, etc. I am particular to some of the carclo optics and a few others I have had access to through work. It is surprising how tight a 5 degree (FWHM) looks when its not all wasted as the case me be at times on fill and artifacts.

Speaking of "better" leds, my current project is not a thrower at all and I may paste a picture of this since its for me, not a customer. I am putting a super high CRI (that's a new technical term) 4000K Xicato module into an incan spotlight. 1000+ lumens of 98 CRI (almost Incan like) at a color temp that will not make everything orange! It will be beautiful. Not the most efficient light, but that is not the purpose.

Semiman


----------



## run4jc

SemiMan said:


> Speaking of "better" leds, my current project is not a thrower at all and I may paste a picture of this since its for me, not a customer. I am putting a super high CRI (that's a new technical term) 4000K Xicato module into an incan spotlight. 1000+ lumens of 98 CRI (almost Incan like) at a color temp that will not make everything orange! It will be beautiful. Not the most efficient light, but that is not the purpose.
> 
> Semiman



I would REALLY like to see that.


----------



## LuxLuthor

kaichu dento said:


> run4jc said:
> 
> 
> 
> *May I digress, only briefly? *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You write a lot of great posts, but this one was a joy to read.
Click to expand...


That was a pleasure to read, and gave a nice balance.

Although I don't know that I have seen the latest Nichia LED's, some of the "high CRI" LED's I have bought (i.e. HDS HDC High CRI) still lack the fuller incan EM spectrum that allows your eyes to process subtle depth of field, contrast, and color nuances particularly when outside. I know some modders have tried to address this by including multiple colored LED emitters in the same light which impacts the efficiency/cooling. 

There seems to be a general misunderstanding that the only relevant *visual* comparison issue between Incan and LED is confined to reproducing the CRI, instead of using one of the "color appearance models" which would be more valid.


----------



## kaichu dento

LuxLuthor said:


> That was a pleasure to read, and gave a nice balance.
> 
> Although I don't know that I have seen the latest Nichia LED's, some of the "high CRI" LED's I have bought (i.e. HDS HDC High CRI) still lack the fuller incan EM spectrum that allows your eyes to process subtle depth of field, contrast, and color nuances particularly when outside.


I don't know if they're yet good enough to completely satisfy your tastes but you really need to sample a couple of the 119/219 emitters. Just as with incan lights, some of which are more completely white and others which give the warmer glow, the range of lights I have with 119/219's in them range from more of a pure white to just-a-touch-of-warmth, the latter of which I only have one, but it is my single most favored emitter I have in any light hands down. So clear and accurate, but accompanied by that sensory warmth that has always made me favor incans for tint. 

Now if I can just find out what particular bin this 219 is I'll gladly swap them into every light I have.


LuxLuthor said:


> There seems to be a general misunderstanding that the only relevant *visual* comparison issue between Incan and LED is confined to reproducing the CRI, instead of using one of the "color appearance models" which would be more valid.


I'd love to see some numbers that a layman could understand published which could help make it easier to predict and understand the various aspects that affect how we choose our favored light sources. Could be quite helpful, but at least we've made leaps and bounds of progress in the past couple of years.


----------



## run4jc

LuxLuthor said:


> That was a pleasure to read, and gave a nice balance.
> 
> Although I don't know that I have seen the latest Nichia LED's, some of the "high CRI" LED's I have bought (i.e. HDS HDC High CRI) still lack the fuller incan EM spectrum that allows your eyes to process subtle depth of field, contrast, and color nuances particularly when outside.





kaichu dento said:


> I don't know if they're yet good enough to completely satisfy your tastes but you really need to sample a couple of the 119/219 emitters. Just as with incan lights, some of which are more completely white and others which give the warmer glow, the range of lights I have with 119/219's in them range from more of a pure white to just-a-touch-of-warmth, the latter of which I only have one, but it is my single most favored emitter I have in any light hands down. So clear and accurate, but accompanied by that sensory warmth that has always made me favor incans for tint.
> 
> Now if I can just find out what particular bin this 219 is I'll gladly swap them into every light I have..



This is such a good, enjoyable exchange of ideas and information. I agree with kaichu dento - you really ought to try one of the Nichia. My guess is that the one Pete is referring to is the one in the high CRI Haiku. Numbers aside, what I SEE when I use it are the subtle differences in colors - don't laugh - but I keep it in the top of my closet and use it to help pick out a suit in the morning. It, more so than any of the others, allows the colors to come through so clearly that I can 'see' the colors in suits, ties, etc. Have you ever gone out for the day with one deep navy sock and one black sock? I have. But this light will show you that subtle difference, or at least, it allows you to see it.

I can't rely on numbers. They give a nice reference to start with, but the visual is what matters to me. Forgive me for drifting back to the audio discussion, but 'back in the day', numbers guys would have ripped a tube amp to shreds (verbally) for the high 'total harmonic distortion' figures, yet they remained the choice of many a discerning _listener._ 

I see a similarity to the visual. I for one, don't care for the "high CRI" Cree XPG - and am not all that fond of the Seoul high CRI emitters. I owned an HDS High CRI light and thought it made everything brown - even orange. If that is what a person likes to 'see', then that's what they should buy.

What I personally want to see is a "lack of tint." It's been mentioned in many posts, but these Nichias seem to almost require your brain to relax - to stop attempting to process the colors. They just come through naturally,

I love the incan 'look', and I dare say that I've owned enough different variants to understand that there are some subtle differences even in the incans, but at the risk of stirring the pot, in MY OPINION they still 'add' tint. If you find that pleasing, then THAT'S GREAT! If you disagree that they add tint, that's great, too!

Ask Don Mcleish which light he prefers for discerning subtle colors when exploring the color rich waters off the coast of his Hawaiian Island home.

And maybe take a peek at the beam shots posted *HERE* and* HERE*. We all know that arguably a camera cannot be relied upon to provide the same visual as we would see in person, but the relative differences are not arguable. The camera is a Canon 40D (decent camera) with the white balance locked at 5000k. The daylight shots are either in the shade or under cloud cover, but if you search the forum you can see MULTIPLE versions of this same daylight shot. I'm actually at our beach place right now (have to go home, though:sigh, and I KNOW what the colors are supposed to look like, and I can tell you with ABSOLUTE CERTAINTY that the 4 variants of the Nichia you will see (119 in a Haiku, 219 in a Haiku, 219 in a Malkoff, and 219 in a little Lumintop that I modded) 'appear' to my eyes as though they add the least tint and allow the most natural color to come through.

Geez, sorry guys. Another long-winded post from me. But I really do love this thread and the discussion. And I really do love incan lights. But I'll say it - for ME, the Nichia 92 CRI 4500k emitters are my favorites.


----------



## rookiedaddy

run4jc said:


> ...
> I love the incan 'look', and I dare say that I've owned enough different variants to understand that there are some subtle differences even in the incans, but at the risk of stirring the pot, in MY OPINION they still 'add' tint.
> ...


Yes indeed, incans do add tint(s)... and it's the "warm fuzzy feeling" from using incan that got me "hooked" for life...  
it's personal preference... I like the incan for what it does best, and LED for what it does best, just that at this moment, I like incans more... 
going off topic a bit, comparing the Nichia 92 CRI 4500K and Nichia 92 CRI 5000K, I much prefer the 5000K emitter as it gives true meaning of tint-less rendering... and it's my favorite LED (like driving a SF P91 with 2 x IMR 18500 is my favorite among the incans).


----------



## run4jc

This one:





Is my favorite overall....

(Apologies to Don Mcleish for hijacking his photo!)


----------



## rookiedaddy

and this one




IS my favorite overall... :devil:

next, this one




Nichia 183 92 CRI 5000K... or is that 4500K... can't remember the CCT the emitter pictured above... they are same in every-way except the centre of the emitter is slightly more yellowish in the 4500K


----------



## kaichu dento

run4jc said:


> This is such a good, enjoyable exchange of ideas and information. I agree with kaichu dento - you really ought to try one of the Nichia. My guess is that the one Pete is referring to is the one in the high CRI Haiku.
> 
> I can't rely on numbers. They give a nice reference to start with, but the visual is what matters to me. Forgive me for drifting back to the audio discussion, but 'back in the day', numbers guys would have ripped a tube amp to shreds (verbally) for the high 'total harmonic distortion' figures, yet they remained the choice of many a discerning _listener._
> 
> Geez, sorry guys. Another long-winded post from me. But I really do love this thread and the discussion. And I really do love incan lights. But I'll say it - for ME, the Nichia 92 CRI 4500k emitters are my favorites.


I've got two Nichia 119 Haiku's right now and several other lights with 219's in them, but the tint that does it the best for me is a 219 which is now in my V10R Ti, and I suppose that for the 5000k fans would be a touch too warm, but it is only just so slightly warm in comparison with my Haiku's that some may not notice it without direct comparison. My guess would be that it's somewhere between 3500-4500k, but for the time being it's my absolute favorite and I find all my other lights, enjoyable as they are to use, to be a compromise.

Going back to the tube amp analogies, they've always been my preference for both essential tonality and feel, not to mention dynamic interaction, and it took ages before I was finally able to plug into a non-tube processor and actually get the feeling that tubes were at work. The specs say there's distortion and my ears just say "Yeah".


----------



## scout24

I enjoy my incans, currently owning three E2e variants with LF and stock bulbs, a G2 w/ P60, and having owned an M6, multiple A2 Aviators, and E1e's. The thing I love most about them, aside from the intangible joy in torturing filaments and the connection to our flashlight roots is the fact that they have pushed the LED manufacturers to pursue the "pure" light that incans provide when driven properly. Nichia, with the 083, 119, and 219 have personally taken the lead here, and are coming closer every year to providing as natural a light source as possible with higher and higher available output. Sometimes a technology peaks, with the limits of size, power source, etc. and that's where I feel incans are. That's not a bad thing, I own the ones that I do for what they provide, same as my LED's. A place, use, and appreciation for both. The plethora of choices available in both formats is amazing, and as was said above, It's a good time to be a flashaholic...


----------



## LGT

scout24 said:


> I enjoy my incans, currently owning three E2e variants with LF and stock bulbs, a G2 w/ P60, and having owned an M6, multiple A2 Aviators, and E1e's. The thing I love most about them, aside from the intangible joy in torturing filaments and the connection to our flashlight roots is the fact that they have pushed the LED manufacturers to pursue the "pure" light that incans provide when driven properly. Nichia, with the 083, 119, and 219 have personally taken the lead here, and are coming closer every year to providing as natural a light source as possible with higher and higher available output. Sometimes a technology peaks, with the limits of size, power source, etc. and that's where I feel incans are. That's not a bad thing, I own the ones that I do for what they provide, same as my LED's. A place, use, and appreciation for both. The plethora of choices available in both formats is amazing, and as was said above, It's a good time to be a flashaholic...


Well said. Though I'm fully aware of the limitations of my SF incans, even with the LF bulbs that can run on rcr batteries. I just can't bring myself to change these to an LED format, no matter how high the CRI.In spite of owning forty or so LED's and only six incans' I much prefer the incan color. Can't put my finger on why, or explain in technical terms why. But they just seem different, no matter how high the CRI of LED's


----------



## LuxLuthor

kaichu dento said:


> I've got two Nichia 119 Haiku's right now and several other lights with 219's in them, but the tint that does it the best for me is a 219 which is now in my V10R Ti, and I suppose that for the 5000k fans would be a touch too warm, but it is only just so slightly warm in comparison with my Haiku's that some may not notice it without direct comparison. My guess would be that it's somewhere between 3500-4500k, but for the time being it's my absolute favorite and I find all my other lights, enjoyable as they are to use, to be a compromise.
> 
> Going back to the tube amp analogies, they've always been my preference for both essential tonality and feel, not to mention dynamic interaction, and it took ages before I was finally able to plug into a non-tube processor and actually get the feeling that tubes were at work. The specs say there's distortion and my ears just say "Yeah".



Where would I find a light with one of these?


----------



## run4jc

LuxLuthor said:


> Where would I find a light with one of these?



I'm assuming you mean the 119 or 219, not the tube amp? 

McGizmo High CRI Haiku found HERE

Malkoff Nichia drop ins HERE

PM sent


----------



## LuxLuthor

Thanks very very much to run4jc and kaichu dento for their help and generous offers. I very much agree that you cannot just go by the numbers or ratings. There is a wide variety of incan colors based on the bulb make, model, voltage, reflector, etc. Same goes for LED's, where there is variability even within a batch/bin of the same make/model. I think I should just get one of the Malkoff's to see how it does look in a number of practical scenarios, and am thinking that this 200 lumen model would be best? 

I'm sure McGizmo's Haiku would be sublimely excellent, but starting with a $69 drop-in seems to be a worthwhile "toe in the water."


----------



## run4jc

LuxLuthor said:


> Thanks very very much to run4jc and kaichu dento for their help and generous offers. I very much agree that you cannot just go by the numbers or ratings. There is a wide variety of incan colors based on the bulb make, model, voltage, reflector, etc. Same goes for LED's, where there is variability even within a batch/bin of the same make/model. I think I should just get one of the Malkoff's to see how it does look in a number of practical scenarios, and am thinking that this 200 lumen model would be best?
> 
> I'm sure McGizmo's Haiku would be sublimely excellent, but starting with a $69 drop-in seems to be a worthwhile "toe in the water."



You are most welcome. I agree with your idea, and your choice of initial drop in. I sent a long, rambling PM to you for further information! Good luck!


----------



## Brigadier

Looking at those drop ins, they do not list the lumens rating of the M61L, LL or LLL. Any idea on what they are?


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## run4jc

Brigadier said:


> Looking at those drop ins, they do not list the lumens rating of the M61L, LL or LLL. Any idea on what they are?



IIRC, 150, 100 and around 60...


----------



## LuxLuthor

run4jc said:


> You are most welcome. I agree with your idea, and your choice of initial drop in. I sent a long, rambling PM to you for further information! Good luck!



Curses! M61 219 On Backorder.


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## scout24

Curses x2! I was talking to run4jc this morning about being ready to pull the trigger on one...


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## Chrontius

run4jc said:


> ...
> 
> I can't rely on numbers. They give a nice reference to start with, but the visual is what matters to me. Forgive me for drifting back to the audio discussion, but 'back in the day', numbers guys would have ripped a tube amp to shreds (verbally) for the high 'total harmonic distortion' figures, yet they remained the choice of many a discerning _listener._
> 
> ...



On head-fi, a particular headphone called the Bowers & Wilkins P5 is inspiring this with amusing frequency. They're not flat-sounding, they don't reproduce sounds sent up their cable with digital precision, and people who haven't ever given them a listen tend to hold strong opinions about them. 

People who've tried them tend to either love them, or just think "They're not for me". The strong feelings have this peculiar way of going away...


----------



## LuxLuthor

Chrontius said:


> On head-fi, a particular headphone called the Bowers & Wilkins P5 is inspiring this with amusing frequency. They're not flat-sounding, they don't reproduce sounds sent up their cable with digital precision, and people who haven't ever given them a listen tend to hold strong opinions about them.
> 
> People who've tried them tend to either love them, or just think "They're not for me". The strong feelings have this peculiar way of going away...



On that note, I'll stick with my Sennheiser HD-800's & Cree OBH-21 Headphone amp. They are just down the street from me here in CT.


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## zoulas

Its like comparing records to cd's. There are a few record hold-outs out there, most of which have a large investment in records, that claim the sound is 'warmer', 'more realistic', etc. At the end of the day, that's a bunch of nonsense. The CD is better than the record many times over. Same for the LED over Incan's. Incan is dead , 100 + year old technology. LED will also be outdated one day. Right now however, its the best thing that happened to the flashlight.


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## run4jc

zoulas said:


> Its like comparing records to cd's. There are a few record hold-outs out there, most of which have a large investment in records, that claim the sound is 'warmer', 'more realistic', etc. At the end of the day, that's a bunch of nonsense. The CD is better than the record many times over. Same for the LED over Incan's. Incan is dead , 100 + year old technology. LED will also be outdated one day. Right now however, its the best thing that happened to the flashlight.



Interesting - it is not always wise to deal in absolutes. And calling one's opinion "nonsense" in a friendly, spirited and enjoyable discussion won't make many friends here... just sayin'.

As the sampling rate of CDs continues to increase, they will continue to more closely approach a true analog of the audio sine wave, but they aren't there yet. 

As the tint of LEDs continues to be improved and refined, it may someday replicate the warmth that so many enjoy from an incan. As has been mentioned, technology marches on and we all benefit. But many prefer the warmth of the incan. 

Don't misunderstand - I haven't played an album in (literally) decades - and out of my 80 or so lights, only 3 of them are incandescent. But those who prefer EITHER deserve the respect of not associating a description of "nonsense" with their choices...


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## scout24

Out of curiosity, zoulas, do you own any quality incandescent lights? What are you basing your opinion on? I'm just curious what your frame of reference is.


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## fishndad

scout24 said:


> Out of curiosity, zoulas, do you own any quality incandescent lights? What are you basing your opinion on? I'm just curious what your frame of reference is.




Well Zoulas you did it, there 1 step closer to snaring you into there Incan trap.

Oh i know that trap well becouse im sitting on my couch with my Solarforce L2 Host.
Waiting for the mailman to deliver something called a ...Lumens Factory IMR-9 500...and some AW IMR16340 550 mAh IMR CR123s


----------



## LGT

zoulas said:


> Its like comparing records to cd's. There are a few record hold-outs out there, most of which have a large investment in records, that claim the sound is 'warmer', 'more realistic', etc. At the end of the day, that's a bunch of nonsense. The CD is better than the record many times over. Same for the LED over Incan's. Incan is dead , 100 + year old technology. LED will also be outdated one day. Right now however, its the best thing that happened to the flashlight.


It's an opinion, not a fact, that LED's are better then incans. Depends on what one prefers. At times, I would much rather use my SF incans because I'm looking for a specific tint to illuminate what I know I'll be looking at. Just as other times I'll choose an LED because I may have to use a light for days or weeks with no chance to recharge batteries while using with a lumensfactory dropin, or burning through a lot of cr123"s with the original SF bulb. There really is no "better." It comes down to what one prefers. Also, please list all of the incan lights you own and say why you think LED's are so much better.


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## fishndad

Its true my opinion is not legit or with merit.
Many of us have never seen a powerfull incan.I have never seen more than 20 lumen spilling from an incan flashlight.

So ive taken the challenge and soon will be able to decide for myself whats a better choice for me.
Although im sure i will love both and find an application for both.
Not better or worse just different.
If 500 lumen of incan light colors the nights landscape better and more naturally than an led, ill be the first one to admit it.


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## fishndad

yifu said:


> This is actually a contentious and subjective point. Most of the incans in use today are actually halogen (traditional incans are banned in many countries, including Australia). Halogens have a Ra of 94-96, which is very close to the 92 typical CRI of high CRI LEDs. About depth of field, it's a subjective point and for my purposes, a ~8000K bluish HID allows me to see the furtherest, as most of the light is reflected back as opposed to being absorbed by browns/greens etc.



really why do they say incandescent on the pack and the others say hallogen on the pack.if there the same that is.
not arguing with you im curious .


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## Brigadier

Wow, only 9 posts and then this?


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## run4jc

Brigadier said:


> Wow, only 9 posts and then this?



EXACTLY...


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## CamoNinja

I got 2 mag chargers today, one with a WA bulb. I have'nt used one in 10-15yrs. I actually miss using them. Love the tint.


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## Darien

CamoNinja said:


> I got 2 mag chargers today, one with a WA bulb. I have'nt used one in 10-15yrs. I actually miss using them. Love the tint.



I like mine I've had for several years now. Been thinking of upgrading to the FM reflector and slug recently. I replaced the pack once.
The sorry ol' WA1160 I've been running just won't burn out!


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## LuxLuthor

Here's some of what you missed, and that I'm still enjoying.


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## CamoNinja

Holy moly Lux. I could use a few spares lol.


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## BVH

Geeze Lux, are you going into retail sales!!


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## kaichu dento

zoulas said:


> Its like comparing records to cd's. There are a few record hold-outs out there, most of which have a large investment in records, that claim the sound is 'warmer', 'more realistic', etc. At the end of the day, that's a bunch of nonsense. The CD is better than the record many times over. Same for the LED over Incan's. Incan is dead , 100 + year old technology. LED will also be outdated one day. Right now however, its the best thing that happened to the flashlight.





Brigadier said:


> Wow, only 9 posts and then this?


Yeah, really. Incredibly he just showed up, and now knows enough to weigh in on incan being dead, just like the guys who were wrong about audio tubes - manufacturing had to be re-started in that field. 

I know the list is absolutely endless, but a couple things that have been 'trumped' by newer technology, and yet refused to go away are horses and bicycles, the aforementioned tubes and incandescent lighting, living in the country and growing your own food, going barefoot and knowing that you don't know everything.

Your post as it stands has a very strong "came in from under the bridge" smell to it and needs to be tempered with a little humility.


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## zoulas

Sorry if I offended anyone.


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## scout24

In my admittedly brief time here, I've noticed that it's a very passionate community with diverse opinions and feelings, with room for everyone. I occasionally wander into "Fixed Lighting", for example, and see names that are new to me after 3 1/2 years... There's room for differing opinions, and sub-forums for everyone's tastes. I wouldn't come into your house and give you a hard time about your choices of carpet or furniture, you know?  Wander with an open mind, respect the tastes of others, learn and enjoy as I have, and you may be pleasantly suprised on what you develop an appreciation for.


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## run4jc

scout24 said:


> In my admittedly brief time here, I've noticed that it's a very passionate community with diverse opinions and feelings, with room for everyone. I occasionally wander into "Fixed Lighting", for example, and see names that are new to me after 3 1/2 years... There's room for differing opinions, and sub-forums for everyone's tastes. I wouldn't come into your house and give you a hard time about your choices of carpet or furniture, you know?  Wander with an open mind, respect the tastes of others, learn and enjoy as I have, and you may be pleasantly suprised on what you develop an appreciation for.



Well said - well said - lovecpf :thumbsup:




zoulas said:


> Sorry if I offended anyone.



:welcome: It's a great place to be a part of....


----------



## PCC

I'm a runtime person. For this very reason I've abandoned incandescent handheld lights almost altogether. The remaining holdouts are all Surefires that I'm slowly devising plans to LED-ify. As far as tints goes, until recently I've never really cared about tints, so long as they're not warm tints, as our minds compensate for subtle variances in tints and, to my eyes, most of my cool white lights register as white. It's when I compare two beams side-by-side that I can see the differences. That has changed, however, because of the Nichia 219. With the 219 I literally have seen the light. I cannot stand warm tint LEDs because all those years of quickly fading alkaline D-cells in my old Mag 2D or Mini-Mags has taught me that when the color of the light turns to amber that it's time to change the batteries. It gives me a headache trying to resist instinctively changing the batteries on a warm tint LED light so I avoid them.

As far as high power incandescents are concerned, I agree that incandescents are still kings in terms of ultimate output, but, I don't care about crazy output. My brightest light puts out 650 OTF lumens and I rarely use it. Incandescents make better throwers because they can be collimated better, but, my 650 OTF lumens light, which is not specifically a thrower, can out throw my M4 due to raw output alone and it'll do it for three times longer and it can be dimmed down for close in work. I've handled a few hotwire incans and they're impressive. They're just not for me.


----------



## SemiMan

run4jc said:


> Interesting - it is not always wise to deal in absolutes. And calling one's opinion "nonsense" in a friendly, spirited and enjoyable discussion won't make many friends here... just sayin'.
> 
> As the sampling rate of CDs continues to increase, they will continue to more closely approach a true analog of the audio sine wave, but they aren't there yet.
> 
> As the tint of LEDs continues to be improved and refined, it may someday replicate the warmth that so many enjoy from an incan. As has been mentioned, technology marches on and we all benefit. But many prefer the warmth of the incan.
> 
> Don't misunderstand - I haven't played an album in (literally) decades - and out of my 80 or so lights, only 3 of them are incandescent. But those who prefer EITHER deserve the respect of not associating a description of "nonsense" with their choices...




Being an audio guy, I just can't resist weighing in on the audio analogy with CDs and the comment about sampling rate and analog waveforms.

Both CDs, and turntables (or analog master tapes) have errors that make neither a perfect copy. Mathematically ... and yes mathematics DOES matter, a CD, at least one created with modern recording equipment is a far closer copy of the original than a turntable is. Sure back in the old days of phase-locked loops around mechanical processes for timing, analog brick wall filters due to the lack of oversampling, etc. the CD could be rather "coarse", but again, with a modern recording and a tolerable CD for playback, the CD is a closer copy. Perhaps it does not have that poor separation of audio that a turntable has that can create a "sound" that some people like, but you could always mix that back in. Then again, with 24/96 or 24/192 available now, it is really not even close and almost the most staunch "audiophiles" would agree. They would probably agree also, especially if not told, that some of the latest in Class-D amplifiers, especially with all digital paths, are better than their favorite class-A amp.


----------



## run4jc

SemiMan said:


> Being an audio guy, I just can't resist weighing in on the audio analogy with CDs and the comment about sampling rate and analog waveforms.
> 
> Both CDs, and turntables (or analog master tapes) have errors that make neither a perfect copy. Mathematically ... and yes mathematics DOES matter, a CD, at least one created with modern recording equipment is a far closer copy of the original than a turntable is. Sure back in the old days of phase-locked loops around mechanical processes for timing, analog brick wall filters due to the lack of oversampling, etc. the CD could be rather "coarse", but again, with a modern recording and a tolerable CD for playback, the CD is a closer copy. Perhaps it does not have that poor separation of audio that a turntable has that can create a "sound" that some people like, but you could always mix that back in. Then again, with 24/96 or 24/192 available now, it is really not even close and almost the most staunch "audiophiles" would agree. They would probably agree also, especially if not told, that some of the latest in Class-D amplifiers, especially with all digital paths, are better than their favorite class-A amp.



Hopefully we won't be 'slapped' for taking the thread off topic - and I'm the guilty party if we do!! Thanks for weighing in. I've been an "audio guy" for the better part of 36 years, I've enjoyed watching the evolution of audio - kinda like watching the evolution of LEDs.

Neither I OR you are absolutely right or wrong on this. I'll tip my hat to your technical explanation. And you'll find some audiophiles who agree with what you say, and some who vehemently disagree.

That's the beauty of the discussion - everyone has an opinion, and whatever is right for each person is what matters. It's about preferences, and I violated my own words and threw an "absolute" out there. Apologies.

There's little doubt that technically a solid state amp is 'better' than a tube amp, yet tube lovers (especially guitar players - I'm guilty) love the 'sound' of a QUALITY tube amp, even while recognizing that digital processors and solid state variants come oh, so very close.

And while I will agree with you that a quality CD, recorded properly, going through a quality path, will produce a sound that most might pick over an LP, some still might surprise you.

Back in the days when my listening buddies (two of them very opinionated engineers) had these discussions, it was tons of fun. Incidentally, the engineers conceded that the digital recordings and solid state electronics were superior, but oddly they preferred listening to music on an LP (as long as it was clean and had minimal clicks and pops) - some through a partial tube path - others not.

Regardless, lest anyone misunderstand, I was in *FAVOR* of the LED, and as mentioned, I haven't listened to an LP in decades. Most of today's recordings are so technology enhanced and digitally processed that you aren't really listening to the 'original' performance. I would guess that few have (as I have) sat in front of a real symphony orchestra and participated in the recording of the performance, then listened to that exact performance's recording playback in a listening room with no parallel walls, no "standing waves", etc.

Back to the flashlight, LED and Incan lights are both enjoyable to me. LED technology has advanced so much - the quality is SO good - and the improved run times, reduced heat, etc., are appealing. From a technological standpoint, the LEDs are (arguably) "better" than incandescent. Still, just like the old LP and Tube Electronics, there is just something about that warm, glowing incandescent that some people prefer.

I'm not trying to have the last word on this. SemiMan made great, accurate points. Just keeping it real - this is such an enjoyable discussion. And SemiMan, great to hear from a fellow audio lover! These days most people hear their music primarily through ear buds and and iPhone or MP3 player! 

MY APOLOGIES TO THE OP FOR TAKING THIS ON A SLIGHT DIVERSION!


----------



## LuxLuthor

There are so many intangibles in discussions like this. Yes, digital CD and SACD can be more accurate as sampling rates and algorithms have improved, but frequently it comes down to how the transfer is done from the best available masters....or if they even still have high quality masters.

In any case, it is not a perfect analogy to Incand vs. LED because of EM spectral distribution that LED's cannot provide. LED Jockeys know the Kelvin output rating has human eye shortfalls of light, color, contrast, & realism perception compared to bright white incands, so they sidestep that heart of the issue for Incand Jockeys, and focus only on efficiency, runtime, and emitter life.

Most Incan Jockeys have a number of LED's for appropriate uses and scenarios, and are not threatened. The converse does not seem to be true where many LED Jockeys seem to be less tolerant, or even consider the possibility that on the aspect of light spectral output, they are using inferior products. Incand Jockeys have no problem being able to manage our battery charging and cell supplies to meet out needs, while being sensible enough to bring an LED for a long camping trip.


----------



## Quest4fire

> Most Incan Jockeys have a number of LED's for appropriate uses and scenarios, and are not threatened. The converse does not seem to be true where many LED Jockeys seem to be less tolerant, or even consider the possibility that on the aspect of light spectral output, they are using inferior products. Incand Jockeys have no problem being able to manage our battery charging and cell supplies to meet out needs, while being sensible enough to bring an LED for a long camping trip.



Well said LUX.


----------



## SemiMan

LuxLuthor said:


> There are so many intangibles in discussions like this. Yes, digital CD and SACD can be more accurate as sampling rates and algorithms have improved, but frequently it comes down to how the transfer is done from the best available masters....or if they even still have high quality masters.
> 
> In any case, it is not a perfect analogy to Incand vs. LED because of EM spectral distribution that LED's cannot provide. LED Jockeys know the Kelvin output rating has human eye shortfalls of light, color, contrast, & realism perception compared to bright white incands, so they sidestep that heart of the issue for Incand Jockeys, and focus only on efficiency, runtime, and emitter life.
> 
> Most Incan Jockeys have a number of LED's for appropriate uses and scenarios, and are not threatened. The converse does not seem to be true where many LED Jockeys seem to be less tolerant, or even consider the possibility that on the aspect of light spectral output, they are using inferior products. Incand Jockeys have no problem being able to manage our battery charging and cell supplies to meet out needs, while being sensible enough to bring an LED for a long camping trip.




Here here! I will agree with that. I work in lighting and make all my money from LEDs, but still have to slap coworkers upside the head when they try to convince people involved with art or similar products that they "must" switch to LED without giving any consideration to the fact that even most high CRI LEDs do not render some colors well and may fail on color balance. Hence why I have been playing with the Xicato modules.

Of course, if you are not looking for that level of critical color, then I believe there are LEDs that are for the most part, more than good enough for almost any application. Unfortunately, Sharp high CRI Zenigate LEDs seem to have become almost unobtanium. For a reasonable cost product, they can replicate incan very well and you can get cooler temps. Not a throwing product though.

As I have access and knowledge to create whatever I want, I have been able to pretty much eliminate the need to ever use and incan though I still have some Surefires, Mags, and the requisite stack of 10-100w incan spots. They just rarely if ever get used any more ... other than as parts for the next test/project.

Semiman


----------



## LuxLuthor

Since I have never heard of Xicato modules or sharp high CRI Zenigate LED's before, I cannot comment intelligently, except to say that I have always been open to LED's or some other form of new lighting (i.e. organic chemical reaction "firefly" hybrids) achieving optimal lighting for the human eye. Effective illumination for professional movie and photography is a whole other field distinct from direct "live" human eye scenarios.

You can be sure that I will google those two technologies to learn about them--always love learning about new developments.


----------



## blasterman

> I cannot comment intelligently





Basically what I'm reading here is straw horse arguements and straw horse rebuttals knowing that the LED crowd won't show up, and the thing is, I could care less about flashlights. A couple of years ago I watched two cops patrol a parking lot, one carrying some triple LED power torch with horridly purple color temp and a CRI likely in the 60's and the other cop carrying an incan . Both of them called in dispatch with a suspicious vehicle description and gave totally different colors for the same car. Pretty obvious the cop with the incan gave a more accurate description. It was pretty funny.......

For years I worked in commercial photography, video analysis, and then digital reproduction, so I had to know more about color science and light sources than I ever wanted. In my field the only true 100 CRI lights source were things like Solux and some pretty expensive HID packages. The Solux are still to this day the reference standard for museums and critical displays. Basically a Solux uses neodymium or some other similiar coating in a reflective rather than transmissive package to correct the CCT up to 3500 or 4000k. They are stunning to look at, but crush efficiency even worse than typical halogens. I've never seen a Solux based flashlight even though there's nothing preventing you from using a 12volt MR-16 in such a fashion. It's about the only thing I'm impressed with in terms of Halogen technology and yet I've never seen a flashlight running a 4000k Solux conversion. Guess you guys prefer 2700k and a yellow world.

If you could produce the color and spectral quality of a 3500-4000k Solux in a package that got at least 75 lumens per watt I'd own it. Actually, that's something that plasma can do, but were a few years off from seeing those get more popular in commercial and there will of course be some silly CD -vs- vinyl analogy as to why a glowing tungsten filament does a better job spitting out quanta.

Which currently leaves incan -vs- LED, and given I don't care about Cree stock and hate multiple soldering I stick to Bridgelux for interiour lighting. At a minimum 800lumens and a CRI no lower than 80 at 3000k the Bridgelux arrays are pretty stunning for interiour lighting. While an incan bulb compared has a higher CRI, the spectral gaps that are missing or mostly depreciated in the LED actually improve visual acuity, which is why everybody I've shown the side by side prefer the Bridelux light source over the Incan. The reason being the human eye is not linear in terms of color response. This is also why I own a spectrometer. The LED mostly lacks the gap between 460-490nm, and then far red as it typically tails off around 620nm. The loss of red isn't such a big deal, but the blue gap could be fixed in an array style package by using different bin LEDs. The thing is, lighting engineers have learned this really doesn't make that much difference, so I fail to see why it's such a big deal with flashlights. Except...if you prefer the color yellow. Then again Cree, Rebel etc., don't have flashlight divisions.

I just finished a major lighting upgrade at a restaurant where we built our own custom spots using 3000k XP-Gs. My Bridgelux arrays at home have a tad better color to my eyes, but the Cree heads deliver crystal clear light and are pleasantly warm. Again, I fail to see how walking through the woods with an incan flashlight requires a higher CRI at a low color temp. Keep your hands warm if it's cold I guess. No customers complain about the loss of spectrum between 460-490nm.

Power issues are what's keeping LED's from displacing HID in video and cinematography - not some absurd belief that tungsten sources are better. A 92 CRI- 20,000 lumen light source isn't exactly something you drop and replace with LED retrofits or 10mm beehive lights. 

In short, I agree the 70-75 CRI flashlight zealots are clearly being visually impaired. When you get into the 80-85 CRI world though I fail to see these magical improvements with Incan. The spectral components of the LED that are elevated are occupying those parts of the visual spectrum that have the highest visual perception. The incan has a wider spectrum, but it's wasting energy with IR, UV-A, and other junk that has little visual benefit. If I suddenly aquired an interest in flashlights, and wanted the highest possible color quality in a portable package I would certainly choose the 85 CRI Rebels ES's and hover around 4500 CCT. Chances are if I strapped a 81C tungsten conversion filter over that Rebel it would be indistinguishable from tungsten.

I always find the audio analogies funny, and a bit irrelevant. A friend of mine used to sell high end audio, and with my back to the audio rack I could identify what digital souce was used based on the quality of the DAC involved. That's pretty much why some audio snobs prefer analog sources, and that's because they don't want to invest in a good DAC. It's the conversion of a digital recording to analog that really matters, and the difference is night and day with a good DAC. If vinyl records were such a great medium then recording engineers would master to them. They don't - they typically sample directly to digital (sometimes using tube based mikes to smooth out microphone deficiencies). However, it's almost always a digital master in the process, or a few hold outs using 1/2 inch tape.


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## LuxLuthor

blasterman said:


> Basically what I'm reading here is straw horse arguements and straw horse rebuttals knowing that the LED crowd won't show up, and the thing is, I could care less about flashlights.



Typical insulting blasterman comment, and why I ignored the rest of the post. Hopefully the enjoyable and respectful previous interchange can continue despite the turd in the fishbowl.


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## scout24

Plenty of the "LED crowd" did show up, not sure what thread you've been reading. I'm thrilled for your technical expertise. The level of innovation in incan lighting certainly does not match that of LED's, but perhaps it doesn't have to. It works, and is enjoyed by those who use it for what it is. The mostly polite discussion and point/ counterpoint/ comparison in the last five pages points to that. I'm pretty sure the thread was intended as appreciation for what incan brings to the table and the enjoyment thereof, not a "mine is better than yours" argument. Comparisons to other technologies just provides a basis for comparison. If you'd like, we can discuss relative merits of carbs vs. fuel injection and open up another entire can of worms. Sometimes there's joy and advantage to getting your hands dirty and tinkering instead of the sterility and appliance like reliability of not having to, despite the technical merits. There are plenty of other sub-forums here if you're not a fan...


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## Brigadier

LuxLuthor said:


> Typical insulting blasterman comment, and why I ignored the rest of the post. Hopefully the enjoyable and respectful previous interchange can continue despite the turd in the fishbowl.



+1


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## fishndad

I liked his rant. It was a little over my head,ok alot,but he was into it.
His opinions were followed up by alot of numbers and examples,yea i dont understand them.
like watching Carl Sagan as a boy.I tend to think the incan croud is a proud one and i admire that.
But i dont think Blastermans post was insulting.

I actually think there is some very closed mindedness on this issue.


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## LuxLuthor

fishndad said:


> I liked his rant. It was a little over my head,ok alot,but he was into it.
> His opinions were followed up by alot of numbers and examples,yea i dont understand them.
> like watching Carl Sagan as a boy.I tend to think the incan croud is a proud one and i admire that.
> But i dont think Blastermans post was insulting.
> 
> I actually think there is some very closed mindedness on this issue.



That's because you have not seen his posting style over the years at CPF. His selective quote of my response to semiman as "I cannot comment intelligently" was his abusive way of attempting to insult my posts in general, and believe me it goes way back into many other threads with many other members. That followed by his false accusations to diminish thoughtful comments by people on both sides of the long running Incand/LED discussions as straw man, and saying he could care less about flashlights is all designed to demean and insult individual people. It detracts from the enjoyment here at CPF, since we are now dealing with a turd in the fishbowl. In the past, the mods have stopped LED proponents from coming into this incan subsection to do some version of what he just did. In any case, I'll report it to the mods, but it reminds me why I stopped coming and contributing to CPF over the last year. There have been some really great people here, but there are too many like him that ruin it. Look what the thread has become about now--and believe me it is exactly what he wants.


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## fishndad

Fair enough.

Lux thats one handsome little fella you got for an avitar.Looks like a Taylor Made cap, cant really tell.
King Cobras myself.


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## Brigadier

LuxLuthor said:


> That's because you have not seen his posting style over the years at CPF. His selective quote of my response to semiman as "I cannot comment intelligently" was his abusive way of attempting to insult my posts in general, and believe me it goes way back into many other threads with many other members. That followed by his false accusations to diminish thoughtful comments by people on both sides of the long running Incand/LED discussions as straw man, and saying he could care less about flashlights is all designed to demean and insult individual people. It detracts from the enjoyment here at CPF, since we are now dealing with a turd in the fishbowl. In the past, the mods have stopped LED proponents from coming into this incan subsection to do some version of what he just did. In any case, I'll report it to the mods, but it reminds me why I stopped coming and contributing to CPF over the last year. There have been some really great people here, but there are too many like him that ruin it. Look what the thread has become about now--and believe me it is exactly what he wants.




Well said.


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## run4jc

I do hope that the thread will resume with the original tone. Maybe I should apologize for throwing out analogies and stirring up 'trouble'. Still, this thread has brought me personally more enjoyment than any other in a while.

It's a good topic, with a good start, and a good level of input. Let's keep it going.


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## fyrstormer

LEDs can achieve higher color temperatures than any solid filament can withstand, and plasma bulbs have interrupted spectra worse than all but the cheapest LEDs. So a neutral-to-cool-white Hi-CRI LED is in a class of its own and impossible to compare to any light source other than the sun. In that respect, since artificial lighting is generally only used where and when sunlight isn't available, if one wants artificial light closely resembling sunlight, there is no other option besides neutral-to-cool-white Hi-CRI LEDs.

I don't much care about the debate over which produces "nicer" warm light, LEDs or incans, because I have very little use for warm light anyway. In the few cases that I do want warm light, the 90%+ efficiency of LEDs trumps all other factors I personally care about.

Neutral-to-cool Hi-CRI LEDS are, of course, the hardest to make and therefore the most expensive. However, since all discussions about the benefits of incandescent lighting revolve around spectral quality these days, I'll go with the flow and only talk about Hi-CRI LEDs.

Of course, there is no accounting for taste or usage criteria. Some people like old technology simply because it is old (hence why I carry a mechanical pocket watch), and some people have legitimate needs for the few benefits that old technology has (diesel engines don't produce EM interference from sparkplugs, incan bulbs output a lot of far-infrared light, my fountain pens are refillable without cartridges, etc.). There is no reason to argue with people who have aesthetically-driven preferences or special needs. For people with pragmatically-driven preferences and no special needs, my earlier analysis applies.


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## Brigadier

fyrstormer said:


> . So a neutral-to-cool-white Hi-CRI LED is in a class of its own and impossible to compare to any light source other than the sun. In that respect, since artificial lighting is generally only used where and when sunlight isn't available, if one wants artificial light closely resembling sunlight, there is no other option besides neutral-to-cool-white Hi-CRI LEDs.



A very uneducated opinion, in my eyes. I have used cool white, neutral white, and warm white LED's in flashlights outdoors - none throw as far or illuminate detail as well as a good incan. Not even close. When I attend the Seattle area CPF get togethers with my incan SureFires and Mag74, the LED guys are always amazed at the amount of detail and 3D rendering the target tree line shows vs their LED's.


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## fyrstormer

Brigadier said:


> A very uneducated opinion, in my eyes. I have used cool white, neutral white, and warm white LED's in flashlights outdoors - none throw as far or illuminate detail as well as a good incan. Not even close. When I attend the Seattle area CPF get togethers with my incan SureFires and Mag74, the LED guys are always amazed at the amount of detail and 3D rendering the target tree line shows vs their LED's.


It's not an uneducated opinion, you just didn't bother to think about what I said before you "corrected" me. I'll try again to explain the part of my post you quoted.

Mid-day sunlight is 6000-7000K. There are no 6000-7000K incandescent bulbs. No known electrically-conductive material can get that hot without quickly suffering permanent damage. So if you want *6000-7000K ARTIFICIAL LIGHT*, your choices are plasma-arc lights (HID, metal halide vapor, etc.) or LEDs. Plasma-arc lights have interrupted spectra by the nature of their operation. LEDs do as well, but the effect is less-pronounced because most of the light gets reprocessed by a phosphor before being "released". So a premium cool-white LED with a good phosphor will produce higher-quality *6000-7000K ARTIFICIAL LIGHT* than any other artificial light source.

2000-4000K light I don't care about 99% of the time, because the lack of blue gives me headaches. If incans "win" in that category, good for them.

3D rendering has nothing whatsoever to do with the light you're using. You can get 3D rendering using single-color lights. It has to do with how your eyes work, and there is no way to account for that without a battery of medical tests.

FYI, nobody is uneducated in regards to incandescent light. We all grew up with it, and the Sun produces it. Everyone is an incan expert. Get off your high horse.


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## scout24

I'm beginning to think Lux had the right idea. The tone has changed , and I'm not a fan. Civility has dropped like a stone, and I've had enough. Scout24 out. Time to find something new.  :shakehead


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## run4jc

scout24 said:


> I'm beginning to think Lux had the right idea. The level of civility has dropped like a stone, and that was one of the things that kept me here. Scout24 out... :sigh: :shakehead



Yeah, it's turned into a long winded, "I know more than you do" you-know-what ing match. I ain't into it any more

run4jc - out


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## fyrstormer

Sounds like a plan.


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## Brigadier

I'm with Lux, I miss the days when the mods would keep the incan bashing LED fanboys and their drive by posts out of this forum.


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## scout24

I meant CPF in general, not just the incan vs. LED, or cool vs. warm, or anything else vs. whatever. There are those whose company I'll miss, but there is way too much of this in the past 6 months or so. I've been here long enough to watch the tone change, and have made it a point to try to contribute where I could, and have the sense to read and learn if I disagreed, and allow others their opinions and preferences. Respect the opinions of others, and enjoy the hobby, wherever it took me. LED's, Ti customs, budget lights, and my small collection of SF incans. This, for the most part, has been a very pleasant distraction from real life, and it's time for a change when it's not. To everyone whose company I've enjoyed, opinions I've respected, and those I've learned from, thank you.  scout24, out.


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## Stress_Test

Technical gobbledegook and long-winded opinions aside, I have tried both because I've always read some people's insistence that the incandescent light is superior quality, better outside, more detail, etc etc. So I figured I'd see for myself.

I put together a SureFire P90 combo in a SolarForce host with 2 18650 Li-ions, which from what I read seems to be a popular, easy combo. I took this light out for a trail walk that included both a woodsy section and a wide open field section. I can't quite remember now what the LED light was that I used; I think it may have been the Fenix PD31 w/R5. It had one output mode that was about on par with the P90 light that I could use for comparison. 

I really couldn't tell any visual superiority between the two lights. The incan just made stuff look "browner" (grass... it was winter) and the LED made stuff look "bluish". I didn't notice any difference in the level of detail that I could see with either light. The humidity was high and neither light had an advantage in the misty conditions either that I could tell. 


So, that was my experience anyway. I can't tell any visual performance difference either way... at least I tried it though *shrugs*


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## kaichu dento

Brigadier said:


> I'm with Lux, I miss the days when the mods would keep the incan bashing LED fanboys and their drive by posts out of this forum.


The comparison between the two basic choices invites all opinions of those caring to weigh in and while bashing has gone on a bit, it's most definitely been on both sides and yours is one of the worst type, suggesting that everyone who disagrees with you is a sophomoric fanboy.

Your preferences towards incandescent lighting is 100% valid, but for you to suggest that anyone, like myself, who has a general preference towards LED's from a pragmatic and practical position, but still loves incandescents, is a fanboy is unnecessarily antagonistic and is fully trolling in content, particularly when you could have posted in a less abusive manner.

You love your incans and I'm glad to hear support for them still - how about acknowledging that we all have the right to like what we like.


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## Brigadier

kaichu dento said:


> The comparison between the two basic choices invites all opinions of those caring to weigh in and while bashing has gone on a bit, it's most definitely been on both sides and yours is one of the worst type, suggesting that everyone who disagrees with you is a sophomoric fanboy.
> 
> Your preferences towards incandescent lighting is 100% valid, but for you to suggest that anyone, like myself, who has a general preference towards LED's from a pragmatic and practical position, but still loves incandescents, is a fanboy is unnecessarily antagonistic and is fully trolling in content, particularly when you could have posted in a less abusive manner.
> 
> You love your incans and I'm glad to hear support for them still - how about acknowledging that we all have the right to like what we like.




You are reading too much into my posts, and putting words in my mouth. Yes I like incans. I also have and use LED's. I prefer incans. Now, I challenge you to search the LED forum and find me posting over there saying that incans are superior to LED's..............you won't find it. I don't go over there and do drive by posting saying incans are superior to LED's - it is my opinion only, so I leave well alone. I just wish LED fanboys would so the incan forum the same respect.


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## kaichu dento

Brigadier said:


> You are reading too much into my posts, and putting words in my mouth. Yes I like incans. I also have and use LED's. I prefer incans. Now, I challenge you to search the LED forum and find me posting over there saying that incans are superior to LED's..............you won't find it. I don't go over there and do drive by posting saying incans are superior to LED's - it is my opinion only, so I leave well alone. I just wish LED fanboys would so the incan forum the same respect.


This thread is about incandescent and how they compare with LED's - there are no fanboys coming in here to rain on the parade and the term itself would be best left out of the thread, particularly in the interest of mutual respect for fellow CPF'ers. Let's talk about lights now and quit trying to exclude members from the thread.


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## Quest4fire

> my friend gave me a custom HID, He told me it's smallest in the world. Love it so much .



What an _awesome _friend! I like HID's as well. Only have one though, a vector POB. Doesn't really compare to that sexy little beast of yours though, the POB is bulky! A few POB owners have changed out their bulbs for lower temps (4300K range). I kind of like the crystal- like bright white of the original bulb, but might try a lower temp one if it ever burns out. Thanks for posting the vids flashlightist. I thoroughly enjoyed them!


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## LGT

Brigadier said:


> I'm with Lux, I miss the days when the mods would keep the incan bashing LED fanboys and their drive by posts out of this forum.


I'm not responding here to support either, as I use both and my opinion as to which I prefer is irrelevant to this post. I think the OP can lead to those who may prefer LED's to say why they may prefer those over incan's.


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## Littlelantern

Hi everybody, this is my third post in the forum.I just registered an hour ago. I edc 9p p91hola and p2xfury .on any occasion each of the flashlight have the pro and con.but I personally love the glorious beam of my 9p vs the greenish white p2x fury.


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## greenpondmike

I know this is an old thread, but here is what I think. A while back I retired my incandescents because all they had was standard output and the battery life wasn't that good. My LEDS seemed to put out soo much brighter light compared to bulbs, but I started reading about color rendering and I also learned that the government is out to do away with incandescent lighting. It seems that Leds are being forced on us if we want any kind of light. Now that the government is forcing this foolishness on us and me not trusting the government as much as I used to got me thinking...what's up with this? I still use led lights, but I also got more incans and use them regularly and I really do like them. They have their purpose and in case of a EMP crisis I'll have some light along with a few others in the family. I also found out that it is counterproductive to use a light that is brighter than what you need because the glareback reflection can ruin your night vision. We have gotten by for years without LEDS--think about that. LEDS are useful, but it might be wrong to get too caught up in them.


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## Swedpat

I really like incandescent because of the tint and color rendition. It feels so natural and is pleasant for the eyes. Compared to the early generations of LEDs the LED just sucks with the cool bluish tint. But the development has went much further since then. Now there are a bunch of ~3000-4000K LEDs who very much remind of incandescent. There are also LEDs with 90+ CRI. I guess there is still a difference worth to appreciate but the huge difference in efficiency and durability/lifetime makes LED to be just great today. Consequently I think LED to a certain level has made incandescent superfluous. 
I MAY be wrong because I have still not experienced a 2000lm incandescent flashlight side by side to warm white LED....
Actually I think this question is pretty much similar to the comparison between vinyl disc and CD...


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## InvisibleFrodo

Incandescent lights are just so darn pleasant. My dream LED is one that replicates good incandescent light. Or direct sunlight. Not the weird 6500K "daylight" that looks nothing like daylight to me. More like moonlight.


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## tab665

guys a think were all missing the coolest thing about incandescent lights... when the light is turned off and on there is a split second where you actually SEE it turning off and on.


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## ssanasisredna

InvisibleFrodo said:


> Incandescent lights are just so darn pleasant. My dream LED is one that replicates good incandescent light. Or direct sunlight. Not the weird 6500K "daylight" that looks nothing like daylight to me. More like moonlight.



Moonlight is 4000K ... just saying.


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## ssanasisredna

Swedpat said:


> Now there are a bunch of ~3000-4000K LEDs who very much remind of incandescent.



For most flashlight owners, except when the batteries are new, they are highly unlikely to see 3000K very often. There are regulated incandescents, but they are not the normal experience. There is no incandescent at over 3400K except where the bulb has been filtered in which case it really isn't an incandescent spectrum any more.


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## Swedpat

ssanasisredna said:


> For most flashlight owners, except when the batteries are new, they are highly unlikely to see 3000K very often. There are regulated incandescents, but they are not the normal experience. There is no incandescent at over 3400K except where the bulb has been filtered in which case it really isn't an incandescent spectrum any more.



I think you are right. Compared to incandescent side-by-side 4000K LED is noticeable cooler. Still I really get incandescent reminding feeling with 4000K. Warm white LED is so much closer to incandescent than a cool white LED is to warm white LED.


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## kaichu dento

greenpondmike said:


> ...I also learned that the government is out to do away with incandescent lighting. It seems that Leds are being forced on us if we want any kind of light.


That was about 10 years ago and it was how they actually started pushing CFL's on us. Back at the time LED lighting was still not ready for prime time yet. I told everyone at work that within 10 years we'd have LED bulbs that were much better than CFL lighting as soon as A) Price came down, B) Output went up and C) Tints got close enough to incan for people to accept them. I was wrong about it taking 10 years as most of my friends had mostly converted to LED bulbs in their homes and businesses by 2015. 

Incan will remain for many of us the gold standard for lighting, but I for one am very happy to have so many options available now. Just before posting I picked up my trusty E1e and compared its tint to my 3500k Rotary and there is less difference between them than there is between many incan bulbs.


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## kaichu dento

Swedpat said:


> I think you are right. Compared to incandescent side-by-side 4000K LED is noticeable cooler. Still I really get incandescent reminding feeling with 4000K. Warm white LED is so much closer to incandescent than a cool white LED is to warm white LED.


That's why my 3500k lights are my absolute favorites. Reasonably warm, but white enough to use as an everyday tool.


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## vicv

My wife prefers the whiter colour of the led lights so hers is a polystinger led. Probably my favourite led light. I carry a neutral XML p60 drop in in a solar force host at work mainly due to the lower low and blistering high when I'm in a higher ambient light area. But for home use I always use an Incan. I never need super long runtime and much prefer the quality of light. My 3c mag puts out ~175 lumens for ~2 hours. What more does a person need.


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