# Bandsaw questions



## Firecop (Apr 22, 2008)

'Morning!

I'm thinking of getting a bandsaw for some light aluminum square bar cutting but have absolutely no idea what to look for. I would, of course, like to be able to cut wood as well...

Any manufacturer and supplier suggestions? I'm not a machinist, or even a tool guy, so light duty is perfectly acceptable.

TIA!


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## LukeA (Apr 22, 2008)

There aren't too too many bandsaws that cut both metal and wood. The two materials require such vastly different speeds. A wood bandsaw will typically run about 2000fpm, fast enough to melt the teeth off of a metal blade, which is meant to run at around 200fpm. If you can find something variable-speed, I think that's what you want.

I know from experience that cutting steel with a metal blade in a wood bandsaw results in a ruined blade, but aluminum should be ok. You'll want cutting fluid for cutting the metal, but to cut wood you want zero anything on the tires, guides, blade, and table.


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## scott.cr (Apr 22, 2008)

I have THIS bandsaw from Horrible Freight. It is not a bad unit for the money. The list price now is $209, but if you keep your eyes out for the sales you can get it a lot cheaper (I only paid $119).

The blade that was included with this saw was next to useless. I was very disappointed with the saw's performance at first, but someone suggested going with a "real" saw blade and I purchased it from use-enco.com for about $15. Night and day performance. I've been using the same blade now for about three years (hobbyist use, not production use), and that's a coarse-toothed blade set to the highest cut speed the saw will run. So it cuts metals relatively quickly.

The blade speed is on the slow side and the table far too small if you plan on using it for classical woodcutting uses. But for chopping boards and posts it is adequate.

The feed mechanism on this saw is, er, "pedestrian." There are plans for a hydraulic feed in a Yahoo! tech group that is dedicated to 4x6" bandsaws. I have not found it necessary for cutting aluminum tubes used in flashlights.


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## Firecop (Apr 22, 2008)

Thanks for the ideas! I'll start looking...


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## fludunlimited (Apr 22, 2008)

I have a HF bandsaw thats about 30 years old.
it still runs great.


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## LukeA (Apr 22, 2008)

fludunlimited said:


> I have a HF bandsaw thats about 30 years old.
> it still runs great.



My bandsaw is a pre-Second World War Delta that still cuts better than most stock saws. There's not too much to go bad on a bandsaw, so get the best one you can afford. The saw will probably outlast you.


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## gadget_lover (Apr 23, 2008)

I have the HF handheld variable speed power hacksaw ( http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=47840 ) and have used it for several years to rough cut aluminum and steel. 

Being handheld, you don't end up with square cuts, but for chopping off bits to mount in a a lathe, mill or drill it's fine. 

It goes on sale for about $70 quite often.

I need to clear space for the 4x6 floor stand model.

Daniel


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## wquiles (Apr 25, 2008)

scott.cr said:


> I have THIS bandsaw from Horrible Freight. It is not a bad unit for the money. The list price now is $209, but if you keep your eyes out for the sales you can get it a lot cheaper (I only paid $119).
> 
> The blade that was included with this saw was next to useless. I was very disappointed with the saw's performance at first, but someone suggested going with a "real" saw blade and I purchased it from use-enco.com for about $15. Night and day performance. I've been using the same blade now for about three years (hobbyist use, not production use), and that's a coarse-toothed blade set to the highest cut speed the saw will run. So it cuts metals relatively quickly.
> 
> ...



That is the same exact bandsaw that I have as well (I also waited until it was on special). You can also cut iregular pieces like I did here:






Your comments on it, as well as the crap blade that comes with it are "spot on". Once I put a bi-metal blade, it was literally night and day difference! I also open the gear box, removed that crap, low-grade fluid it came with, and put some nice, heavy synthetic instead - it now runs cooler and quieter. Lastly, I put one of those flex belts like this one I got on my HF 8x12 lathe - runc a little bit quieter and with a little less vibration 






Will


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## Firecop (Apr 25, 2008)

Excellent! Thanks for your input.


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## SafetyBob (May 12, 2008)

Will's comment deserves a bit more info. If you are unfamiliar with exactly what blade needs to cut what material, you can get good help here if you want to track down a specific blade online to purchase.

I prefer going to my industrial supply house in town (that I have dealt with for 18 years now, wow!!) and having them make a recommendation based upon what I am cutting. This can include advising me on what speed I need to cut at since they always have the same saw I have or it's identical clone built by someone else.....

They also will more than likely make the blade while I wait (they normally have one or two instock of popular sizes) and they have yet to miss the mark. And most importantly, quality blade means quality cut for me and generally my blades last and last.

Bob E.


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## KC2IXE (May 13, 2008)

Back when I used to go to Eastec every year (been like 8 years - I have to go again) I spend a BUNCH of time talking to the saw blade makers (Hint - I'm talking metalworking blades, not woodworking)

One of the HUGE things they reminded me: Sawing is a "first operation" - you are usually going to do some "second op" to smooth out the finish, finalize length, etc - so the trick is "Get it done - fast"

Cutting say, 1/2 plate, you probably want to be in the range of 8 teeth per inch, and maybe even 6 - 3 teeth engaged in the work at a time is about where you want to be

Think is, most of us are rarely cutting material that thick - say you're cutting 1/4", or say tubing with 1/4" walls - you probably want somewhere in the 12-14 TPI range.

If you're doing "production" work, where you'll be working with one kind of material, it's farly easy to "match the blade to the work", but for most of what we do, it's a lot harder

Oh, and he says that most of use run our saws WAY too slow - they were running steel at higher speeds than I tent to run Aluminum

BTW I like Starrett or Lenox blades - usually what they call a Powerband - a wavy cut profile, with variable TPI - one blade will have like 12-16 TPI on the blade

Do yourself a favor - buy good blades - or blades made locally from GOOD stock


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## gadget_lover (Sep 8, 2008)

In the past, I have advocated the use of the hand held bandsaw for those who do not have the room for a stand mounted horizontal bandsaw. Indeed, the Harbor Freight portable bandsaw ( similar in design to a Portaband ) has served me well for several years.

But I finally broke down and bought a used Enco horizontal bandsaw from a Craigslist ad. It's so old that the item number is not in the Enco catalog. But it was not rusty, and the motor and other parts are in good shape. 1/2 horse motor and 3 speeds.

$60 brought it home and $23 bought a nice, sharp (blood thirsty) bi-metal replacement blade. A bit of reinforcing angle iron for the sheet metal legs and it was ready to go.

But now the reason for this post... I never realized how different a stand mounted saw was compared to a hand held one. Here's a comparison on cutting a 2 inch rod.

This first picture is a cut done with my portable bandsaw. The angle of the cut is about 8 degrees off of vertical. On a large round like this it's very difficult to keep the blade at 90 degrees up-down and left-right. I had to face off 2/10 of an inch to get it flat and at a 90 degree angle









The next shot is what I have after cutting on my horizontal bandsaw. The cut is within a degree of vertical. It's almost smooth enough to use as it is.






So I stand corrected. A hand held bandsaw is a great addition to your cache of tools, but it does not directly replace the stand mounted horizontal band-saw.

Daniel


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## gadget_lover (Sep 9, 2008)

A couple more coments and a question;

The new saw from HF has a 1 hp motor, not the 1/2 hp that was common a few years back. Check the specs when you see it on sale for $175 again.

The saw is really narrow, even with the stand. I have mine tucked under an extention ladder.

Now the questions:

What size is that little table you use when in verticle mode? Is it just sheet metal?


How many pounds of force should be on the blade? Mine is adjusted pretty light. The chips when it sawed through the 2 inch bar were like a heavy dust. I'm using a 10-14 (variable tooth) blade.

Thanks in advance

Daniel


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## KC2IXE (Sep 9, 2008)

another big thing about the stand mounted band saws - you can turn them on, start the cut, and go about doing OTHER things in the shop, while just basically monitoring the saw to make sure it doesn't burst into flame or the like


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## wquiles (Sep 9, 2008)

gadget_lover said:


> In the past, I have advocated the use of the hand held bandsaw for those who do not have the room for a stand mounted horizontal bandsaw. Indeed, the Harbor Freight portable bandsaw ( similar in design to a Portaband ) has served me well for several years.
> 
> But I finally broke down and bought a used Enco horizontal lathe from a Craigslist ad. It's so old that the item number is not in the Enco catalog. But it was not rusty, and the motor and other parts are in good shape. 1/2 horse motor and 3 speeds.
> 
> ...



Yep, definitely a nice addition to your shop - welcome to the club 

The table/base is just sheet metal - and it was not very sturdy at all. I ended up making a new table out of 2x4's - MUCH more stronger and stable now. I will try to post a picture later when I get home ...





KC2IXE said:


> another big thing about the stand mounted band saws - you can turn them on, start the cut, and go about doing OTHER things in the shop, while just basically monitoring the saw to make sure it doesn't burst into flame or the like



A big +1 on this one - certainly one of the things I like the most about it :thumbsup:


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## darkzero (Nov 26, 2009)

Sorry for resurrecting an old thread but I figured it was appropiate to post here.

I've got this:













It's time for a new blade & I need help choosing the right one (there's a sale this Friday ). I'm sure it still has the original blade (whatever that is) as the guy I got it from barely used it. I tried cutting 1/2" titanium rod the other day & it took over 1 hr! 15 mins in & barely getting through I inspected the blade & noticed missing & rounded off teeth. Not sure if the Ti caused that but before this I never had an issues cutting steel & of course softer metals but I have been using the hell out of it. I was on the slowest speed with not much tension.

I mostly cut solid round stock up to 1.5" in diameter & occasionally larger. I've was looking at a Starret variable 10-14 pitch M-42 HRC 67-69 but should I get positive rake or straight/zero rake? If I do go with positive, will I have an issue cutting thin wall tubing if needed? Will I still have a problem cutting Ti (I still need to cut some 1" stock too)? Any other recommendations?

The plate says 1/80" blade thickness, will I have an issue using a 1/40" blade thickness? 

Thanks


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## wquiles (Nov 26, 2009)

Will, 

I have the same one, and I only use Starrett blades on mine (I think it was a 14 tooth one). The particular blade I have there has sliced over 50-60 "D" Mags, and 5-10 drill rods, from 1/2" dia to 1" dia., and I am still using the same blade. I have not done Ti yet, but a 1" dia W-1 drill rod is no match for the Starrett blade 

When cutting steel I do use a plastic hand sprayer bottle to spray a little of my Kool Mist coolant formula - it works even better and everything stays cooler.

Will

EDIT: I have another brand new Starrett blade, so I can tell you exactly what it is: Length: 5' 41/2" 1/2" width, Thickness: 0.025", Teeth = 14, Cat # 98381-05-04-1/2, Starrett Bar Code:0-4965914165-8


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## cmacclel (Nov 26, 2009)

darkzero said:


> Sorry for resurrecting an old thread but I figured it was appropiate to post here.
> 
> 
> 
> It's time for a new blade & I need help choosing the right one (there's a sale this Friday ). I'm sure it still has the original blade (whatever that is) as the guy I got it from barely used it. I tried cutting 1/2" titanium rod the other day & it took over 1 hr! 15 mins in & barely getting through I inspected the blade & noticed missing & rounded off teeth.


 


I had that same problem but the blade that came with my saw 







Cut Aluminum like butter but when I tossed in a piece of 1 Titanium it took forever to cut through it. I ordered a Irwin Bi-Metal Blade and it now cuts through titanium with no problem. I can cut through a 1" rod in probably under 2 minutes.

Mac


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## darkzero (Nov 28, 2009)

Mac, that's a badass bandsaw! 

Ok so I ended up ordering an Irwin bi-metal 10-14 blade from Enco. The Starrett blade at MSC & Travers was just under $40. I got a better deal at Enco yesterday with the items I ordered & Enco didn't have the same Starrett blades I wanted so I went with the Irwin. I ended up paying just over $12 for the Irwin blade anyway after the discount so I couldn't go wrong. 




wquiles said:


> When cutting steel I do use a plastic hand sprayer bottle to spray a little of my Kool Mist coolant formula - it works even better and everything stays cooler.


 
Thanks I'll have to try that some day. I stopped using cutting oil with the bandsaw as it got the internals messy & I hate cleaning it. I started using this & have been pretty happy with it for the small stuff that I cut.

The stick on the left:


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## darkzero (Dec 3, 2009)

Perhaps I'm being a bit dramatic but I'd really like to know.....

Got my Irwin 10-14T bi-metal blade today. Wow what a difference! With my old dull 14T blade it took almost an hour to cut through 1/2" solid Ti! I'm sure I did not have it setup optimal as well. With the new blade it took only a few minutes to cut through 1" solid Ti.

I choose 10-14 variable according to the sizes I will normally cut & I wanted "cutting speed" rather than a nicer finish (that will be done on the lathe anyway) & I'm glad i did. For break in I started off by cutting a few pieces of aluminum, the some drill rod & increased the feed gradually. Not sure how much I have to cut for proper break in but I went on with some testing.

I was taught that a properly setup bandsaw should produce somewhat curly chips. With my old blade I remembered that all I ever got was fine "dust". I'm sure my improper setup lead to the short blade life as well as trying to cut hardened steel which I could not. With the new blade I was able to get curly looking chips by adjusting speed & feed. However I'm not sure if this is what they should look like.


1. 3/4" Al 6061






2. 1/2" Ti 6Al4V






3. 1" Ti 6Al4V






4. 3/4" W1 Drill Rod Tool Steel






5. 3/4" W1 Drill Rod Tool Steel w/ Boelube solid







Are the chips supposed to be bigger? I ran the saw on the slowest speed. I just don't want to wear out the blade prematurely by improper speeds & feeds. I'm not concerned about cutting aluminum & brass since they cut no problem. 

What's weird is the Ti actually seems to cut easier & faster than the drill rod. When I cut the drill rod I got the least amount of chips & it got hot compared to the Ti. I would have never thought this as Ti is not fun to drill where drilling the drill rod is no big deal. It seems like the drill rod is harder than the Ti when sawing.

In pic 3 of the 1" Ti, why do the top & bottom of the rod come out wavy?

Only pic 5 was cut using lubricant, everything else was dry cut. The Boelube solid works very well & doesn't leave an oily mess all up in the drive wheels. Even after the cut the surface of the metal still feels waxy.


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## combinatorix (Dec 24, 2009)

The thing that makes Ti different is that it work hardens as you cut it. A sharp blade and an aggressive cut will cut through it fine, as it is intrinsically nowhere near as hard as the tool steel. 

The issue with the dull blade is that the horizontal bandsaw does not push with that much force and when the dull blade starts to rub a lot more and it just continues to work hard harden to the point at which the Ti wears down the blade.

In my experience cutting Ti stock on a vertical bandsaw, especially with an decently used blade, all you have to push it like a ***** the whole way through and it will be fine, or else you will inevitably find yourself stuck halfway through with a hardened part and a dull blade.

You should always use wax on bandsaw blades, not cutting oil. You can buy dedicated bandsaw blade lubricant, or general cutting/tapping wax at most places. I've never used the Boeing stuff but it looks fine.

I can't really see the wavy lines in your part but they are probably just caused by vibrations in the machine as it cuts through your part. As the rod has a smaller length of cut on the top and bottom, the bandsaw cuts much faster through those parts and the combination of material, cutting speed, and feed rate in that spot causes your funny finish. Sorry I can't offer a more scientific explanation.


As to the point about bandsaws cutting wood but not metal and vise versa. While I wouldn't cut steel in a wood bandsaw with a blade for wood, I've never met a metal bandsaw that couldn't cut wood, or plastic, or whatever when it was needed. If you have all the options available you should use the right tool and right blade for the job but softer materials are generally easier to deal with.


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## darkzero (Dec 24, 2009)

Thanks combinatorix, much appreciated! :twothumbs I wasn't quite sure if I would experience tool hardening on my bandsaw with Ti & tool steel but it's one of the reasons why I choose to get the 10-14 blade. Funny cause I didn't think that is what might have been happening with the dull blade, I only thought of the blade being dull & nothing more. Never would have thought tool steel was harder than Ti alloy, never looked it up, thanks for confirming. Do they ever harden Ti alloy for uses?


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## precisionworks (Dec 24, 2009)

> Are the chips supposed to be bigger?


Chip size is proportional to the size of the gullet between teeth - coarse pitch blades have big gullets & make big chips, while a finer tooth blade produces a smaller chip. 







That chart came from the M K Morse site, which contains a ton of good info on blades:

http://www.independenceband.com/technical.html



> In pic 3 of the 1" Ti, why do the top & bottom of the rod come out wavy?


A saw blade under tension becomes a load bearing beam. The greater the tension applied to the blade, the higher the beam strength. You may want to try increasing the band tension & see if the waves stop or get less. Positioning the guides closer to the work may also help. As you point out, it usually causes no problem since a saw cut piece of stock will get a second op in the lathe.


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## KC2IXE (Dec 26, 2009)

combinatorix said:


> ...snip...You should always use wax on bandsaw blades, not cutting oil. ...snip...



I think you should put some sort of disclaimer on that - as in "with the saws most people typically use" - I've used more than one mice, power feed horizontal band saw setup with SERIOUS flood cooling with heavy oil. Then again, we only used that saw for "Mid sized" work and up - like 6 inch and larger I beams. When you spend your day cutting 18-24" I beams, it is a different works (Hint - a 4" piece of angle iron 3/8" thick would go in the shear and just get chopped)


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## combinatorix (Dec 26, 2009)

KC2IXE said:


> I think you should put some sort of disclaimer on that - as in "with the saws most people typically use" - I've used more than one mice, power feed horizontal band saw setup with SERIOUS flood cooling with heavy oil. Then again, we only used that saw for "Mid sized" work and up - like 6 inch and larger I beams. When you spend your day cutting 18-24" I beams, it is a different works (Hint - a 4" piece of angle iron 3/8" thick would go in the shear and just get chopped)



One would hope that anybody using industrial equipment to cut I beams would be learning how to do their job on the job, and not looking to a flashlight forum for advice. And if any flashlight tinkerers are investing in that kind of machinery they will hopefully read the manual before building their new 2-ton light.

Nevertheless, you have a point. Every machine is different and you are generally best of doing your own research on what you are using if you are ever unsure of what the specs are.


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## wquiles (Dec 26, 2009)

darkzero said:


> Thanks I'll have to try that some day. I stopped using cutting oil with the bandsaw as it got the internals messy & I hate cleaning it. I started using this & have been pretty happy with it for the small stuff that I cut.
> 
> The stick on the left:


I have been spraying a little bit of the Koll Mist #78 formula while cutting steel (and it works great keeping everything cool), but it is of course messy, so I just ordered a stick of the Boelube to try on my bandsaw.


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## gadget_lover (Dec 26, 2009)

I use some cheap (greasy) emergency candles that I bought at the dollar store. 10 for a dollar. I slice off a small sliver of it while pressing it to the outboard side of the blade, and it seems to work well.

Not that I cut that much. It seems to be more important when using my wood bandsaw to make cuts in aluminum plate and plastics.

Daniel


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## darkzero (Dec 26, 2009)

wquiles said:


> II just ordered a stick of the Boelube to try on my bandsaw.


 
Cool. Sure beats having an oily/wet mess in the drive & all over the machine even if the paste lube doesn't work as great as wet lube. With the paste, it's just cleans up when your cleaning up the chips anyway, I don't think I'll switch back. Not sure how it reacts to the hot summy socal days though (I'm sure Texas is the same). 

I used to use a similar product when working in automotive for drilling, etc. Same tpe of product in the same type of tube stick but it was yellow & called pro drill or something like that. Which reminds me, I think I still have a new unused stick of it somewhere.


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