# it's an absolute BARGAIN !!!



## dingbat (Dec 27, 2006)

http://www.lapolicegear.com/subemopoflev.html


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## benchmade_boy (Dec 27, 2006)

my freind got to play with the new one up at the denver gun show. he said it was soo cool, and i was so jeluos.


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## frasera (Dec 27, 2006)

http://www.niterider.com/prod_firestorm.shtml


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## Lightfantastic (Dec 27, 2006)

dingbat said:


> http://www.lapolicegear.com/subemopoflev.html


To combine two threads, at only $4800.00, knowing how our government works, every TSA agent should be issued at least one.


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## 65535 (Dec 27, 2006)

I win  http://www.polarion-store.com/pd_polarion_ps_pf40.cfm


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## TORCH_BOY (Dec 27, 2006)

Could buy a new car with that


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## Xzn (Dec 27, 2006)

Why would someone buy that when they can get a maxabeam?

Im sorry... but this is like spending $80,000 for a top of the line honda accord EX while you can purchase a BMW 5 series for $50,000ish...


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## Bill97z (Dec 27, 2006)

Agree'd...no way that light costs more than a few hundred dollars to build.....the markup is criminal.


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## D-Dog (Dec 27, 2006)

Still, our government can afford that while the average consumer can't. I agree that the total cost of this light is probably less than $1000 by a fairly large margian, however, everyone has to make thier money somewhere and the government is a good place to start


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## seery (Dec 27, 2006)

*Re: Surefire Beast II, it's absolutely worth the $$.*

Thanks to a good friend (who is a military rep), I was able to run one of these
a few weeks back. We've had two units on order for a few months and are
anxiously awaiting delivery, even more so now.

The Beast II is an absolute wall of white light, amazing...amazing...amazing!!!
The included rechargeable Lithium Ion handle is a fine addition to the primary cell
handle which we ran. 

But if you are all wondering what makes the Beast II worth the price of admission?
It's the quality of light, the incredible build quality of all the components, SF
customer support, and the R&D that went into this light.

Eords can't explain how this light felt in the hands.

You get what you pay for and the Beast II is no exception. If you need the
absolute best, spend what it takes and get it.


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## NAW (Dec 27, 2006)

When you really think about it, the Beast II is actually a very very weak light compared to the other HID lights out there on the market.

Those 2000 lumens is nothing compared to BarnBurner, Helios, X1, 50W Xeray, 35W Polarion, Rayzorlite, X990, Costco HID, Amondotech Illuminator, Rayzorbeam, etc...

If anything I would forget the Beast II and go straight to the Helios. The Helios is 1/2 the price, 4000 lumens, smaller, and lighter than the Beast II


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## mtbkndad (Dec 27, 2006)

NAW said:


> When you really think about it, the Beast II is actually a very very weak light compared to the other HID lights out there on the market.
> 
> Those 2000 lumens is nothing compared to BarnBurner, Helios, X1, 50W Xeray, 35W Polarion, Rayzorlite, X990, Costco HID, Amondotech Illuminator, Rayzorbeam, etc...
> 
> If anything I would forget the Beast II and go straight to the Helios. The Helios is 1/2 the price, 4000 lumens, smaller, and lighter than the Beast II



Surefire is claiming 2000 lumen light output not a 2000 lumen bulb.
There is a big difference. 
None of the 35 watt lights above have any where near the 3200 lumens their bulbs are rated at coming out of their front ends.

This is also true about the 50 watt lights that use the lumens of the bulb to rate their light, ect..

The Surefire Beast I have seen holds it's own against any of the above lights when you consider it was designed more for flood and not to be a throw monster. I have never seen the new Beast 2 and do not know what it's beam is like. I do know that it will be very bright whatever beam pattern it uses.

Take Care,
mtbkndad :wave:

Added section: You are definitely right about the price difference between the Helios and Beast. I calculated before I could buy one Helios expedition package + I X1 expedition package for the price of a Beast.


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## NAW (Dec 27, 2006)

mtbkndad said:


> Surefire is claiming 2000 lumen light output not a 2000 lumen bulb.
> There is a big difference.
> None of the 35 watt lights above have any where near the 3200 lumens their bulbs are rated at coming out of their front ends.


 
Thanks... I realize the only companies that uses lumens out the front are Surefire and HDS (well thats my underststanding)

But when you think about it... with that being the case many of the other HID lights would still be able to be brighter than the Beast II because the Beast II doesn't use a SMO reflector as the rest of the other HID lights. Of course the Beast II is a flood light, but when you see spot compared to flood, you're going to want spot.


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## mtbkndad (Dec 27, 2006)

NAW said:


> Thanks... I realize the only companies that uses lumens out the front are Surefire and HDS (well thats my underststanding)
> 
> But when you think about it... with that being the case many of the other HID lights would still be able to be brighter than the Beast II because the Beast II doesn't use a SMO reflector as the rest of the other HID lights. Of course the Beast II is a flood light, but when you see spot compared to flood, you're going to want spot.




The Beast beam pattern is nice for lots of things. It is just a matter of preference. I personally like the Helios beam pattern more in a spotlight like this for it's balance of throw and flood from it's wide corona.
For $4807 you would think this light could have an adjustable beam like the XeRay, with a high efficiency reflector like the Helios and X1. I also think Surefire should have been able to loose the ugly square ballast behind the head. Maybe those are Really expensive LED's. 

I wish I were a purchasing agent for a government agency. I would love to just how low the prices go for the Beast, Hellfighter, Helios, X1, etc. when large orders are being placed.

Take Care,
mtbkndad :wave:


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## bwaites (Dec 28, 2006)

Let's see you take those other lights and throw them as far as you can, while they are lit, and see how many of them stay lit!

PK did just that with the Beast, and while I wasn't there, those that were said it went WAY up in the air and a LONG way down the street and kept right on running!

How many of you would be willing to do that with your Polarians, Costco HIDs, Xeray, Helios, Rayzorlites, Amondotechs, etc? I have two of those, and I ain't gonna try it with either!

The Beast is what it is, and cost what it cost, period!

No one else I know of makes a light that WE can buy that will take the abuse the Beast and Hellfighter can, at ANY price!

Bill


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## mtbkndad (Dec 28, 2006)

bwaites said:


> Let's see you take those other lights and throw them as far as you can, while they are lit, and see how many of them stay lit!
> 
> PK did just that with the Beast, and while I wasn't there, those that were said it went WAY up in the air and a LONG way down the street and kept right on running!
> 
> ...



I would be fine with doing that with BVH's Helios once it is fitted with the same type of monster playschool looking rubber baby bumbers that come with the beast. 
 (He may not be fine with it  ). I know about the demonstration. Mr. Ted Bear told me about it and he was there, I am under the understanding the beast had it's bumbers on. If I remember correctly, they were on a third floor balcony and PK threw it up as far as he could. The light did suffer some internal damage, I believe to the battery holder, but still worked. Mr Ted Bear or another person that was there is welcome to correct me if I got the details wrong. 

It seems to me that is a better demonstration of Surefire's removeable shock isolation system then the light itself.
Sort of like Charlotte's web being a better demonstration of a brilliant spider then "some pig" .
Try that with a Beast without the rubber bumbers and I will be real impressed.
A fenix surived 10 story drop down an elevator shaft. That is impressive. 
Let's also remember that was the original Beast not the Beast 2 with it's increased circuitry and LED's in the reflector.

As far as I am concerned the new Beast 2 needs to proove itself rather then rest on it's predessor's laurels.
The last time I saw a new in the case Beast on Ebay it went for just under $3,000.
Now apparently the new Beast has a Polarion X1 or two XeRays worth of improvements. :thinking:
Maybe the new rubber can handle being tossed from a six story building .
Have LED prices gone up that much since I have been primarily hanging out in the Spotlight Forum?
This is another perfect example of what Windstrings has been saying in the Helios thread. I will change the words to apply to the Beast 2
Okay the Beast 2 is an improvement over the Beast, please show me where the new improvements justify what seems to be close to a $2,000 price increase. Have materials really gone up that much?

I have been told there have been numerous versions of the Beast that never made it into the hands of the public. They were made for specific agencies with specific needs. That kind of custom work certainly does carry a price tag.

Aside from that, I still believe the main reason for the High Price of the Surefires and Polarions is to have the margins necessary for the agency and quantity discounts a company needs to provide to deal with the government or large corporations.
Surefire has other things that Polarion does not.
Size and a reputation. 
A good reputation goes a long way to promote a product.
Just like you using a test of the original Beast to declare how tough this one is.
There just have not been years of Helios production to proove it's long term quality and reliability yet.
For that matter I do not know if enough Helios's and X1's have been made to get them out of the new product growing pains phase yet.
I am sure the Beast 2 is a wonderful light.
I personally think it is rather ugly with its square ballast box.
It is also not compact enough for my purposes so even if I had the money for searchlight purchases I would pass on a Beast 2 and buy an X1 expedition package, a 50 watt XeRay and have a custom high efficiancy reflector made for it like the Polarion reflectors, a X990 and still have lots of money left over.

Take Care,
mtbkndad :wave:


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## NAW (Dec 28, 2006)

bwaites said:


> No one else I know of makes a light that WE can buy that will take the abuse the Beast and Hellfighter can, at ANY price!


 
Well unless someone goes out and tosses every HID light out there on the market, then we can't know for sure the quality of these other lights, thus we can't totally assume the Beast II is superior to all other lights in durabillity without a proper testing of all HID lights... (if you know what I mean) 

Plus there are other factors like was the Beast II modified before the test to help its fall, how much feet did it fall, how did it land (landing on ballast, or straight on the rear, etc could yield different results), ...

I'm just saying unless someone can prove to me the Beast II has better durability, etc than all other HID lights out there, then I can't see such a high price tag justifiable.

But I sure would'nt mind owning one. :huh:


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## LuxLuthor (Dec 28, 2006)

I get so sick of everyone justifying absolutely ridiculous prices for these high end SF lights by talking about throwing it off tops of buildings...like that is something that a military member will plan on doing. That is just completely stupid, unless the military is filled with morons as John Kerry suggested.

Stop and think about all the military hardware that is used...and it all has defined uses and procedures that must be followed. To use this SF durability logic to justify disgustingly high prices, you might as well say that an F-16 should also be designed to be able to fly straight into the ground, and suffer no damage.

The truth of the matter is that the military needs some radical oversight to stop them from wasting that kind of money on a light that can will work if thrown down a garbage disposal. As much as I think the Polarion lights are also way overpriced, I would prefer they use those and save a ton of money...or some other cheaper light....and demand that the soldiers take care of that affordable piece of equipment the same as a laser scope, portable radio, or any sensitive piece of electronics.


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## JasonC8301 (Dec 28, 2006)

A flashlight for a few hundred dollars is something I will part with out of my OWN pocket to stay alive. If your life depended on it, would you mount a Mag-lite or a SF weapons light to a M16 in a harsh environment? Remember all those things are tools; designed to be used but not abused. I am glad I am still here and not risking my life to save a piece of equipment that can be replaced. 

The hellfire light was designed to be mounted onto heavy weapons. I don't think any of the other HID lights can withstand the constant thumping of a E34 machine gun or .50 BMG M2. 

Remember not everyone gets cool flashlights, only the SF guys.

The same can go for cars, why spend $500K-$1 million US dollars on high end car when a $10K Hyundai will do the same? Because people can.


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## LuxLuthor (Dec 28, 2006)

Testing a light on an M16 is not remotely the same as throwing it off buildings. Using an analogy of a $500K-1 Million recreational sports car toy for the ultra rich has nothing to do with using an affordable light that the taxpayer is buying, and that can be properly cared for with the appropriate instructions & guidelines.

You could make these same lame arguments about every piece of equipment that is ever used by the military...that it must be indestructible. Let's see....soldiers are instructed not to use their M-16 as a pry-bar...so somehow they manage not to use it for that stupid use. To follow your logic, why don't we have every Hummer now cost $100 million so none of the Iranian IED's can possibly damage it in any way, no matter the amount of plastic explosive used? 

A better analogy of common sense affordable engineering is the AK-47....which became the weapon of choice throughout the world that is not being supplied by the "Cost Is No Object--USA" (aka: Taxpayers).


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## NAW (Dec 28, 2006)

Its funny how there is a low number of Surefire Beast II and Hellfire owners here(compared to other HID owners), yet those two products seem to get the most praise and glory.

Its all Surefire reputation. I could bet if the Beast II weren't made by Surefire and by some other company, then it would never be taken seriously.

The bottom line is simple though... its only worth it if you feel its worth it. 

I for one don't think its worth it and will subscribe to something else that I feel is definetley worth every penny which would probably be the BarnBurner. As for those who go down the raod of the Beast II, I hope you have fun


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## JasonC8301 (Dec 28, 2006)

LuxLuthor said:


> Testing a light on an M16 is not remotely the same as throwing it off buildings. Using an analogy of a $500K-1 Million recreational sports car toy for the ultra rich has nothing to do with using an affordable light that the taxpayer is buying, and that can be properly cared for with the appropriate instructions & guidelines.
> 
> You could make these same lame arguments about every piece of equipment that is ever used by the military...that it must be indestructible. Let's see....soldiers are instructed not to use their M-16 as a pry-bar...so somehow they manage not to use it for that stupid use. To follow your logic, why don't we have every Hummer now cost $100 million so none of the Iranian IED's can possibly damage it in any way, no matter the amount of plastic explosive used?
> 
> A better analogy of common sense affordable engineering is the AK-47....which became the weapon of choice throughout the world that is not being supplied by the "Cost Is No Object--USA" (aka: Taxpayers).



And to follow your logic of being an arm chair expert you never deal with things that do break down in an area of combat no matter how much they cost. 

How many soldiers do you think have a SF Beast of Hellfire? I would say only a very small percent. The reason we do not have $100 million dollar HMMWV's is because it is not cost effective. Its a game of numbers and sometimes a human life is a calculated risk. You can make arguments but that dead soldier is still dead no matter how much money the US of A throws at him. 

If you don't like it, leave.


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## LuxLuthor (Dec 28, 2006)

ROFL...telling me to leave as your answer. Good Job. :rock:

It amazes me how once you expose the illogical thinking of justifying ridiculously high prices for someone's pet product because it is being sold to the military, they bring in something like their "last ditch - dead soldier "theory.

So you are saying that a soldier is not smart enough to use a spotlight the way instructed to do so? How can they have learned not to use their M16 as a pry-bar, but then are not able to figure out that throwing an affordable spotlight down a 6 story building is not acceptable? 

Surely you understand that if they bend the M16 barrel it would similarly jeopardize their life? So to follow your logic because you are enamored of the high end SF lineup, we taxpayers should now justify "the military" adding another $4,000 to fortify every single M16 barrel with some new spinkee titanium alloy...since we should spare no expense to prevent a dead soldier from dying when they use their M16 as a prybar. ROFL!


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## cchurchi (Dec 28, 2006)

The Surefire beast is the Harley Davidson of flashlights. So basicly, it costs twice as much as it should (based on its size, weight, output) because of the name brand.

As far a soldiers are concerned, the government will spend a set amount per solder. I would rather that money be spent wisely on things like better body armor, more powerful ammuntion, or better pay! 

Imagine if Surefire came out with a "rappers edition 50 Cent Beast III" plated with real platinium look-alike aloys and encrusted with cubic zirconium diamonds for $8,000. I'm sure some here would argue that Surefire had to substantialy beef up the light to incorporate the extra bling thus justifing the $4,000 higher price tag.


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## seery (Dec 28, 2006)

Very well stated Bill. IMHO the price of the Beast II is quite fair for what it offers. Of ALL the other HID's, it's the only "real tool" among the toys.



bwaites said:


> Let's see you take those other lights and throw them as far as you can, while they are lit, and see how many of them stay lit!
> 
> PK did just that with the Beast, and while I wasn't there, those that were said it went WAY up in the air and a LONG way down the street and kept right on running!
> 
> ...


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## bwaites (Dec 28, 2006)

Does anyone here HONESTLY think that PK LOWERED the standards he established with the Beast? I have not heard that the BeastII has been subjected to the same type of "throw it as far as you can" test that the Beast was, but I have serious doubts that PK LOWERED the survivability of the light for the second version!

Lex, I'm sorry, but it is VERY obvious that you have NO experience in high stress jobs!

Of course the military doesn't intentionally throw their HID lights, or drop them off buildings, or intentionally do many of the things that Beast is made to survive, but those things DO happen accidently also. (Soldier on roof checking area for hiding enemies, gets shot at, dives for cover, light falls off roof.)

BUT, military environments ARE incredibly tough on equipment, not because of deliberate abuse, but because of the situation.

NO ONE forces anyone to buy a Beast, if a cheaper light will do what you want it to, buy it! The military does, buying lots of other HID lights for different uses.

BUT, once again, when they need the survivability of the Beast/BeastII or Hellfire, that's what they buy. 

Does anyone here understand "lowest price" pricing? It essentially states that you must give the government the best available price. You cannot design something to government standards, charge the government one price, and then lower the price once you have made up your development costs.

Since there is essentially NO commercial market, (give me a break if you think the few people that own Beasts here on CPF are a legitimate money making market!) Surefire makes its costs up on the government market. If they then release a few to us wackos, we pay what the government pays, +/- whatever additional marketing/handling costs there are for small volume sales. 

For those who think they are too much money for the parts, please design and build one and bring it out for less and people will line up to buy them!

Sheesh, I've seen people here on CPF pay $1000 for $10 worth of Titanium, and $30 worth of circuitry and LED!

Bill


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## mtbkndad (Dec 28, 2006)

bwaites said:


> Does anyone here HONESTLY think that PK LOWERED the standards he established with the Beast? I have not heard that the BeastII has been subjected to the same type of "throw it as far as you can" test that the Beast was, but I have serious doubts that PK LOWERED the survivability of the light for the second version!
> 
> Lex, I'm sorry, but it is VERY obvious that you have NO experience in high stress jobs!
> 
> ...



With all due respect this thread was about "what a bargain" the Beast is.
I do not believe PK would intentionally design the Beast 2 to be less durable.
That does not mean it instantly is as durable either.
I could drop a Beast from 10 or 15 feet and ruin it.
That test would be no more fair then assuming every Beast will always be able to handle the punishment that the one PK threw did.

The one point I did not elaborate on regarding Surefires advantage over Polarion is that Surefire is big.
They have a large well established distribution system and they are big enough to aggressively protect their pricing structure. The end result is that they can charge what they want.

That is their right. It is only a matter of time before others develop lights of similar quality and at substantially lower prices.
I really do not think the average Soldier or Border agent is planning on throwing their Beast's on a regular basis. 
The Helios is more compact, does not have a square ballast behind the head and is $2700 less and thows farther where it counts while still having a very wide beam.

Companies simply will charge what they feel their products are worth.
As I mentioned before, even if I had $4,800 for spotlight purchases I would not buy a Beast. I could get much more lighting capacity that is more suited to my needs from multiple companies for the same price.

Take Care,
mtbkndad :wave:


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## XeRay (Dec 28, 2006)

One word of note, The US military is somewhat unsatisfied with the performance of the Hellfire (I have been told this by my military contacts). They have returned many failed units. They are actively looking for other options. It is my understanding the US military pays about $2,600.00 for the Hellfire.


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## bwaites (Dec 28, 2006)

I understand that some units MAY have failed, but the fact that they are ACTIVELY looking is a pretty good indication that no one has found an obviously better unit.

As for your contacts in the military, what do you EXPECT them to say to you? That's the way the game is played! If the military was really unhappy, they would cancel or put on hold future orders. Since the process to do so with unclassified items is public, has anyone checked?

I'm not a Surefire rep, nor do I think that their lights are the be all and end all. In fact, I think that many of their lights CAN be improved, (Look at what Milkyspit is doing to them for one example!).

BUT...and this is a big BUT...No one else seems to have stepped into the breach to produce a comparable light at a better price!

I don't (and never will) have a Beast/BeastII/Hellfire etc. I DO have several commercial HID lights. They suit my needs and budget. The Surefires do not.

I keep hoping that XeRay will produce a light with Beast/Hellfire durability and at 1/3 the cost, but so far, every HID I have fails some of my criteria. Too big, wrong body, etc. None of them are perfect, (neither are the Surefires to me). 

At the price, they are what they are; some of us think they are overpriced, some of us think underpriced, some just right priced.

However, until SOMEONE comes out with a similar unit at a better price, it is the defacto "best buy"!

I remember a similar discussion in the late winter/early spring. XeRay was working on a new light with similar specs, is it ready for primetime?


Bill


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## XeRay (Dec 28, 2006)

bwaites said:


> I remember a similar discussion in the late winter/early spring. XeRay was working on a new light with similar specs, is it ready for primetime?


 
We are already selling to the military for a 50 cal application. We are not showing this installation on our website, since we do not want any of our competition to know what we are doing yet. In a few months it wont matter any more.


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## mtbkndad (Dec 28, 2006)

XeRay said:


> We are already selling to the military for a 50 cal application. We are not showing this installation on our website, since we do not want any of our competition to know what we are doing yet. In a few months it wont matter any more.




Dan,
You are smart. The last place you will want to show it until to no longer matters is CPF.    .

Take Care,
mtbkndad :wave:


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## cchurchi (Dec 28, 2006)

Some who have responded to this tread feel the Surefire Beast II is overpriced by several thousand dollars. I agree. The question is whether or not Surefire is price gouging the government simply because the government often writes out blank checks. 

To determine if this is the case, we must first determine how much each Surefire Beast II costs to manufacture. Anyone care to take a guess. I would bet that Surefire would still make a healthy profit if each unit was sold around $2,500.


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## LuxLuthor (Dec 28, 2006)

Despite the tenacity of my arguments, I will always concede that the market will determine the prices, once there is an avenue of healthy competition, and an objective evaluation of overall product performance for a given price (which is missing with some on CPF). 

My specific objection in these SF & Polarion overpriced high end lights is with those who use the government/military to justify ridiculous prices, when it is one of the primary clients. Prices should be based on market forces, competitive products, and more reasonable expectations. If SF wants to make a Solid 14K Gold Beast with jewels bedecking various features...at a price of $25,000 for their John Travolta clients....go for it. Just don't try and justify the price being worth every penny because the military/government is paying for it. That is not a logical argument of the product's value. 

Having served in the Navy, and on submarines for 4 years, I am well aware of the excessive performance demands on equipment. That does not mean that a flashlight must be made with a ridiculously high price because some numnuts Colonel and his supply Master Sergeant _(notice I didn't choose Navy ranks...Go Navy!)_ think it would be nice to have a light that paralyzes the enemy while spitting nickels to keep the troops entertained.

Yes, SF might be able to design a flashlight that might survive a nuclear bomb out of some spinkee Blue Kryptonite, but only when used on the Bizarros home world. Oh, and it willl cost a bazillion dollars, but of course is worth every penny because:

1) SF made it, and we must all worship everything SF makes

2) the Military will be buying 100 of them...so now we really know it is worth their price.
ps) Dan I sure hope your company did not sign the kind of non-disclosure documents I had seen when working with some Navy contractors at Electric Boat. Even mentioning the possibility of a new product/application was a violation.


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## bwaites (Dec 28, 2006)

So, can we expect to get the Xerays in a "few months"? And if so, what will be the cost? 

I'm looking forward to it!

I want a light with the durability of the Beast/Hellfire, but with real world pricing.

Bill


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## NAW (Dec 28, 2006)

bwaites said:


> I keep hoping that XeRay will produce a light with Beast/Hellfire durability and at 1/3 the cost, but so far, every HID I have fails some of my criteria. Too big, wrong body, etc. None of them are perfect, (neither are the Surefires to me).


 
Actually Polarion is working on just that.

https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/139719&highlight=Polarion


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## BVH (Dec 28, 2006)

Mtbkndad, for $2,200 in compensation, I'll gladly perform the 3-story, toss it off the roof test using my Helios. Sooner or later, one of us Helios owners will probably do something like this by accident. I vote for waiting. (Hopefully, its not me)


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## bwaites (Dec 28, 2006)

NAW,

That's significantly more than 1/3rd the cost, and although it MIGHT be a Hellfire competitor, it's not a Beast Competitor.

I love the look, but it's not a flashlight, anymore than a Costco hid is a 
flashlight.

And my goodness, they are still $2000 plus. So far as I know, they aren't certified for use on crew weapons, tanks, etc.

They are gorgeous, but I wouldn't be willing to throw one off the roof to see if it would survive, would you?

Bill


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## mtbkndad (Dec 28, 2006)

BVH said:


> Mtbkndad, for $2,200 in compensation, I'll gladly perform the 3-story, toss it off the roof test using my Helios. Sooner or later, one of us Helios owners will probably do something like this by accident. I vote for waiting. (Hopefully, its not me)



I would gladly have Mr Ted Bear pay you $3000 compensation. 
 

Mr Ted Bear, you did not see this post  .
Maybe Ken would like to do this test since I seem to remember him mentioning something about a rubber boot for the Helios.

Take Care,
mtbkndad :wave:


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## NAW (Dec 28, 2006)

bwaites said:


> NAW,
> 
> That's significantly more than 1/3rd the cost, and although it MIGHT be a Hellfire competitor, it's not a Beast Competitor.
> 
> ...


 
Its basically nothing more than a Polarion Helios flashlight with mounts, etc.

The regular Polarion Helios sells for $2000.


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## mtbkndad (Dec 28, 2006)

luxluthor,

You have numerous good points :thumbsup: . I would like to say there is a difference between my saying single unit light prices need to be high in order to have room for tiered pricing agreements and my saying these lights are necessarily worth their high single unit prices. I have a very unique need that causes me to look at the Polarion X1 and if another light comes by that is just as packable and tough at a significantly lower price before I have the funds for and X1 then I will get it. 
Of course MBC is only six months away and I NEED to start saving for it too even more then I need and X1  .

Take Care,
mtbkndad :wave:


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## XeRay (Dec 28, 2006)

bwaites said:


> So, can we expect to get the Xerays in a "few months"? And if so, what will be the cost?
> 
> I'm looking forward to it!
> 
> ...


 
My lips are sealed until we unveil it on our website.


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## BVH (Dec 28, 2006)

Dan, is this the 85 Watt BBB (Boosted Barn Burner) I've been waiting for? IF so, sign me up! I'll gladly accept the 750 hour lamp life in exchange for more lumens.


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## LuxLuthor (Dec 28, 2006)

mtbkndad said:


> luxluthor,
> 
> You have numerous good points :thumbsup: . I would like to say there is a difference between my saying single unit light prices need to be high in order to have room for tiered pricing agreements and my saying these lights are necessarily worth their high single unit prices. I have a very unique need that causes me to look at the Polarion X1 and if another light comes by that is just as packable and tough at a significantly lower price before I have the funds for and X1 then I will get it.
> Of course MBC is only six months away and I NEED to start saving for it too even more then I need and X1  .
> ...


Honestly, any of these companies can charge whatever they want, for whatever reasons...and starting out high so you can sell at the anticipated fair market price after quantity discounting is about the best justification I have read. It has the implication that their actual anticipated volume price is 50-60% of single retail pricing....which puts them (SF & Polarion) into a more reasonable competitive price range.

My arguments were directed towards those that would say the single unit retail prices (of SF & Polarion) were worth every penny...and especially when Government ("anonomous") buying was a part of their justification....like "it's ok to charge high prices, since the sugar daddy government is paying for it, and thinks they need it." 

Often times, the military/government really does not need many of the high price items they buy. FEMA was sure it would need the 300,000 Katrina trailers that it spent $5 Billion on, despite the fact that so many sit unused in locations that can't use them Likewise, I am quite sure if you did not have the funds, that you would somehow manage to find a cheaper alternative for your personal outdoor activities, and you would make it work just fine. As far as I can tell, *almost *none of these high performance lights are really a necessity that justifies their high prices.



XeRay said:


> My lips are sealed until we unveil it on our website.


Loose lips sink....well you are now being very smart. I personally know of two Navy contracts that were cancelled by my C.O. because news of the pending deal was leaked...and it would have dramatically affected the stock/net worth of a particular small company, which another part of the Government (The SEC) frowns upon.

:goodjob:


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## XeRay (Dec 28, 2006)

BVH said:


> Dan, is this the 85 Watt BBB (Boosted Barn Burner) I've been waiting for? IF so, sign me up! I'll gladly accept the 750 hour lamp life in exchange for more lumens.


 
Sorry to disappoint but, that is not "currently" in the offing.


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## Mr Ted Bear (Dec 28, 2006)

Three storys (easily), and 40 to 50 yards down range. The BEAST was tossed by KC (Sasha's hubby) frrom where we gathered by the side of the road, and landed on the asphalt. The were enought G forces, that the nipples on the ends of the batteries were flatten, and hence the light stopped working , but otherwise the light worked fine.


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## LuxLuthor (Dec 28, 2006)

Mr Ted Bear said:


> The were enought G forces, that the nipples on the ends of the batteries were flatten, and hence *the light stopped working*, but otherwise the light worked fine.



Good thing you weren't in combat....you would have been another dead soldier...ROFL !! (JK'ing).

Seriously, I would love to have seen a video of that abuse....I can feel myself recoiling just thinking of that level of abuse with any light. It seems a little bit like lighting a cigar with a $100 bill.


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## bwaites (Dec 28, 2006)

Check out the Tigerlight video!

http://www.tigerlight.net/DynamicFiles/Video/TigerLightDurabilityLg.mov

Bill


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## mtbkndad (Dec 28, 2006)

LuxLuthor said:


> Honestly, any of these companies can charge whatever they want, for whatever reasons...and starting out high so you can sell at the anticipated fair market price after quantity discounting is about the best justification I have read. It has the implication that their actual anticipated volume price is 50-60% of single retail pricing....which puts them (SF & Polarion) into a more reasonable competitive price range.
> 
> My arguments were directed towards those that would say the single unit retail prices (of SF & Polarion) were worth every penny...and especially when Government ("anonomous") buying was a part of their justification....like "it's ok to charge high prices, since the sugar daddy government is paying for it, and thinks they need it."
> 
> ...



I get what you are saying now and understand. Regarding myself, in reality my Mag85 with extra batteries does real well as a backup emergency light and it is much more compact. I also carry a Night Ops 9V Falcata with extra CR123A's in my pack and then there is my bike light and I usually carry an extra battery pack for it when riding solo at night. Wayne at Amondotech got me to try a RC 7.2V subC pack and it works as well as the C packs I have so I can actually carry two extras and have close to 12 hours of light on low total. I just want to have the power of a good 35 watt HID in my pack for emergency purposes. Overkill yes, absolutely needed no.
I like what Edna said in the Incredibles "Luck favors the prepared". 
My posts have been focusing on the fact that if people like me want lights like X1's or Helioses or Beasts, or Hellfighter's there is a premium to be paid for buying just one since these companies have clearly set up their prices to sell to their primary customers at "below retail" or "special group or volume discounts". They cannot justify the claim that their government or corporate clients are getting a discount if some people are not being charged the full price.
I personally would rather by one X1 at full price then 10 at a substantial discount that I would likely not be able to disclose and end up with nine HID's I do not need. 

Once again I appreciate your input in this matter.

Take Care,
mtbkndad :wave:


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## LuxLuthor (Dec 28, 2006)

bwaites said:


> Check out the Tigerlight video!
> 
> http://www.tigerlight.net/DynamicFiles/Video/TigerLightDurabilityLg.mov
> 
> Bill



Ha Ha Ha! *OMG...that was amazing*. I said each time: "_*NO! He's not about to drop/throw/bat/run over that light...what is he some kind of stupid idiot?*_" 

Man, that is some entertaining abuse...and makes quite a good case for a light that even John Kerry's soldier cannot screw up!!! BRAVO!

:rock:


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## tvodrd (Dec 28, 2006)

Mr Ted Bear said:


> Three storys (easily), and 40 to 50 yards down range. The BEAST was tossed by KC (Sasha's hubby) frrom where we gathered by the side of the road, and landed on the asphalt. The were enought G forces, that the nipples on the ends of the batteries were flatten, and hence the light stopped working , but otherwise the light worked fine.



PK tossed it first, and it remained lit after impact. KC, an L.E.O., launched it towards L.E.O. (Low Earth Orbit,) and a battery replacement was required. 
(Fondling mine. :naughty: )
The lamp 'sploded on my Maxabeam at my Thanksgiving campout and a discounted replacement on ebay cost me $234! I doubt it had 2 hours on it! I lack a clue as to Beastie's warranty with respect to the lamp. _Premature_ incan failures seem to be liberally replaced.

Larry


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## windstrings (Dec 28, 2006)

XeRay said:


> Sorry to disappoint but, that is not "currently" in the offing.



I don't know if it would be true in this case, but knowing the way friction curves work.... Heat would be even more a concern......


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## windstrings (Dec 28, 2006)

I'm constantly amazed at human nature. We will squabble and fuss and fight over 20.00 bucks on a light that cost 70.00 bucks and we think it should only be worth 50.00, yet we will wet our pants over a light that cost 4800.00 even though there are other lights that do better jobs for less than half or even 1/3rd?

Another example that emotion overules reason.... so folks.. if you can sell your lights by evoking strong emotional feelings.. people will sell and mortgage thier homes to buy it.....as long as your light evokes a stronger emotion than having a place to live of course!

A prime example... remember "welfare cadillacs?" People were willing to not have a home just so they could own one "since they couldn't afford both" and have the image and wow factor with thier peers!

The US government is a foolish sucker.. because they are spending someone elses money.. "ours". They buy based on emotion too .... not necessarily need or practicle use. I suppose I would too if I had a blank checkbook to buy anything I wanted without expense to myself.

If a manufacturer can tap into that market... then good for them.. but it won't be me that makes the purchase!

Car purchases are made everyday on emotion without reason or common sense too... there's a reason the saleman wants you to focus only on the looks and the sound of the stereo and the way the car makes you "feel" while turning the corners.. yea baby yeaa!..... 

I can understand a reckless government with an unlimited expense account, but what "person" would really spend 4800.00 of thier own money on a light when there are so many better options? if so, I either wish I had their money or hope I don't have thier brains!

Why not spend 6500.00 for the Hellfire that has less lumens than the X990 for 399.00 and the Xeray for 795.00 "CPF price" and the polarions, Helios lines which are around the 2K range? just how far does an extra 4000 - 5000.00 dollars go for quality?.....

Who cares whats the cost if your the federal government right?.... I know they don't pay those prices, but someone does....... is it reaaaallly a bargain?????

*Whats a bargain again anyway.*. I think I must have lost the meaning somewhere?


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## LuxLuthor (Dec 28, 2006)

Windy, what a troublemaker you are !!! LOL!!! You don't see me ruffling any feathers like that!! Ha Ha! 

When I think back on my last car deal....I'm still mad at how I let myself get snookered by those sneaky salesman playing on my emotions!!!


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## mtbkndad (Dec 29, 2006)

We live in a truly strange system. I know people who would rather by an item for $1500 that has a "Retail" price of $3000 then another product of similar quality for $1300 that has a "Retail" price of $1600. Why, because they "Save" more with the first item :thinking: . Often a particular brand name is attached to these "savings".
Sometimes that brand name is worth the difference and sometimes it is not. Either way, in my thinking the first option costs $200 more rather the being a $1200 larger savings.
When it comes to tools for my work, I try to research and buy the best I can and buy the right tool the first time.

If I had a need in my work that could only be fulfilled by the $4807 Surefire Beast I would find a way to get it. I don't so I won't. Now if the need was real and my work depended on the light and it would get regular use and the only way I could get one is spending $4807, then it would be worthwhile to me regardless of what it cost to make or how little others can get it for by purchasing in volume.

In reality, even my planned X1 purchase is because I REALLY like the light and it fits the requirements I have for the "high end" light I want to purchase. If I did not have a legitimate use for it I just could not justify buying it. That is why I do not have a XeRay or Polarion P1 or X990 when I already have 2 Costco HID's, 2 Amondotech Illuminators, 2 10 MCP Thors, 1 15 MCP Thor, and numerous other incan & HID lights (Not to mention all of my flashlights). All of these get regular use for different tasks and suit my needs fine.

At the same time since the X1 is not a work purchase, the real world in which I live often has unexpected expenses that cut into my discretionary spending funds. I really do NEED to show up with a Nintendo Wii for the family before I buy an X1    .


Had the X1 not been made I would still be saving for a Helios. I like the look and size of the X1 more and, unlike luxluthor am only "certified" to as far underwater as I can hold my breath :green: . The 100 ft depth rating of the X1 is serous overkill for this former lifeguard/water safety instructor that never goes near the water anymore 

I also see two practical purposes for the high retail single unit prices of the Beasts, HellFighters, and on a lower scale the Helioses, X1's, and other similar lights. One was mentioned before, to give dealers substantial room to deal when making large contracts. The second is to KEEP average people FROM buying them. It seems to me, if Dan's numbers are correct and the military is getting Hellfighters for around $2,600 then, Surefire actually does not care to sell these to civilians unless the civilians are REALLY willing to make is worth their while. 
This may be true of Polarion too, maybe they really do not want just any average person to be getting their lights. The price of the Helios and X1 really make it necesary for the purchasers to know what their needs are, what they want, and how the size and features of these lights will fulfill their needs in ways others will not BEFORE purchasing. 
These are just my thoughts.

Take Care,
mtbkndad :wave:


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## windstrings (Dec 29, 2006)

mtbkndad said:


> Surefire actually does not care to sell these to civilians unless the civilians are REALLY willing to make is worth their while. :wave:



Yea. .Civilians can be a major pain in the butt! :lolsign:


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## windstrings (Dec 29, 2006)

LuxLuthor said:


> Windy, what a troublemaker you are !!! LOL!!! You don't see me ruffling any feathers like that!! Ha Ha!
> 
> When I think back on my last car deal....I'm still mad at how I let myself get snookered by those sneaky salesman playing on my emotions!!!



Ah, you caught me up to my dasterly deeds... theres a reason I keep that avatar!!!! :lolsign:


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## NAW (Dec 30, 2006)

Now back to the original topic...

You want to know what a real bargain is?

Get yourself a Thor 15 Million candle power spotlight and that sucka will outhrow everything here for only $30. :laughing: 

https://www.candlepowerforums.com/posts/1594766&postcount=84


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## windstrings (Dec 30, 2006)

NAW said:


> Now back to the original topic...
> 
> You want to know what a real bargain is?
> 
> ...



The link you provided doesn't have a thor in it that I saw......

But I've heard different from those who have put them up against some of the HID's..... I know mine totally "killed" the 10M Thor....


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## tanasit (Jan 6, 2007)

It's the Honda NSX at $85,000.00 which you can't even buy if you have the dough because they were all reserved and sold out before appearing!

This is only several times over the baseline when we talk flashlight but if you look at the wristwatch, it may be a case of ten thousands times over just to tell the time.  



Xzn said:


> Why would someone buy that when they can get a maxabeam?
> 
> Im sorry... but this is like spending $80,000 for a top of the line honda accord EX while you can purchase a BMW 5 series for $50,000ish...


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## seery (Jan 24, 2007)

Wasn't sure which place was better to post. Here is an update on the Beast II.
https://www.candlepowerforums.com/posts/1809978#post1809978


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