# Neutral tint, I get it now.



## OfficerCamp (Nov 12, 2009)

When I first got into these gadgets we call "flashlights" I was all about "more". More output, more runtime, but mostly, more output. To emphasize this point, I chose to purchase a lower quality light (vs a much better brand light of similar design) based solely on the fact that it put out something like 10 more lumens (my views were very skewed, price was NOT the issue). 

On a whim, I purchased a neutral white head to my Quark 123t light. I told myself "well, it's got lower output, and it's an older emitter, but it's pretty cheap, and I should see what the neutral emitters are all about". 

It arrived, and I tried it out in my house during the day. Not very impressive, told myself it was a waste of money, I threw it in my holster, and didn't give it a second thought. Later that night I was walking from my car to my girlfriends door (long driveway, lots of trees and bushes), so I fired up my Quark. WOW!! This new light was an absolute gem in outdoor conditions, and gave great rendering of natural colors, and supplied my eyes with depth perception that I was only used to during daytime conditions. 

This light has absolutely spoiled me, and I feel I will never go back to a cool tint light. I plan on swapping emitters on the lights that I love, but came from the factory with cool color temps. I'm sure this has been discussed before, and I'm sure many of you have a similar story, but this is mine, and I'll never be the same.

OC


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## hyperloop (Nov 12, 2009)

+1 on that buddy, fully agreed on the neutral tint. Wait till you try a high powered incand.

Go check out the Fenix TK20, you won't regret it.


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## NonSenCe (Nov 12, 2009)

welcome to the gang.. (should we start one..? )

some still need more output.. but i think all my warm tint lights are bright enough for my uses.. but not dim enough.


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## WHT_GE8 (Nov 12, 2009)

I didnt get it either.... Till I got a Stanley 2M spotlight. :twothumbs Building a ROP now. Warm tints are the best.


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## outersquare (Nov 12, 2009)

imo tint takes backseat to beam pattern 

when i built my ROP i used a smooth reflector and although the color was nice, the beam pattern was lumpy and ugly erasing much of the benefit..


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## OfficerCamp (Nov 12, 2009)

True, Outersquare. I'll take a nice smooth beam pattern WITH a nice neutral tint. There are too many lights that fit this description to tolerate anything else. I'm falling in love with my Nitecore D10 all over again, mine has a nice creamy neutral tint.


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## DimeRazorback (Nov 12, 2009)

I love neutral tints!



I like all tints though, it doesn't really bother me.

But neutral is nice!


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## mudman cj (Nov 12, 2009)

Welcome to the brotherhood of a strong preference for neutral tints! :grouphug:


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## Illum (Nov 12, 2009)

DimeRazorback said:


> I love neutral tints!
> 
> 
> 
> ...



neutral tints allow you to judge everything in a neutral manner


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## jackthedog (Nov 12, 2009)

I was just bitten by the NW bug. I just got a Quark 123^2 Tactical NW and that started it, then came a NW EagleTac T10CL2. Now I'm thinking about selling a lot of my cool white lights. 

Is the TK20 the standard for NW 2AA lights?


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## TooSharp (Nov 12, 2009)

They are the only lights I will buy now. In fact we are trying to get 4Sevens to do a neutral run on his Quark MiNi. Check out my sig if your interested.


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## gunga (Nov 12, 2009)

TooSharp said:


> They are the only lights I will buy now. In fact we are trying to get 4Sevens to do a neutral run on his Quark MiNi. Check out my sig if your interested.


 
Yep, I agree, all my lights are now modded to neutral. Any new ones must be either modded or come in neutral already...


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## strinq (Nov 12, 2009)

I love the neutrals in forest environments or when i go for a night run near lakes but i prefer the cool in urban environments, i wonder why...


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## Linger (Nov 13, 2009)

+1 strinq.

In rural / wildreness areas:
the reds (or warm tints) show more of the branch and bark and reveal more then a wall of green foliage. warm is great (also more pleasing to everyone i've ever had on a walk with me. Not one person has said 'wow, that cool tint is a lot more comforting')

In urban areas:
But cool is best reflecting off ashpalt or concrete. Cool tint is also a visually distinct tint - warm tint may blend too well with ambient / background lighting (moon light, etc.). Shining my warm tint mc-e on the road vs. cool tint mc-e (same driver for each light) the cool just 'pops' out, the warm fades in


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## hyperloop (Nov 13, 2009)

jackthedog said:


> I was just bitten by the NW bug. I just got a Quark 123^2 Tactical NW and that started it, then came a NW EagleTac T10CL2. Now I'm thinking about selling a lot of my cool white lights.
> 
> Is the TK20 the standard for NW 2AA lights?



i have both the Romisen RC N3 warm white and the TK20, the Romisen is warmer but will not throw as far as the TK20. will try and do some comparison shots of both and post


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## ray2ray78 (Nov 13, 2009)

+1 NW tints!


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## ninjaboigt (Nov 13, 2009)

i love neutral tints also! tk20 was my first, so when i heard the quark had a limited edition for neutral i had to pre order it right away. 

now im contemplating if i should get the mini in reg cool tint for its 189 lumens on my key chain... or go for the nicer neutral tint and make the comitment...*sigh* lol i should get both


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## Cataract (Nov 13, 2009)

I got converted the same day I got my quark AA too. You gotta try the TK20! I still love my quarks, but my TK20 is even better. I'm even looking for a nice incan or two to complete my night hiking setup.


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## Crenshaw (Nov 13, 2009)

I converted since the day i put a Q35A into my Ex10... i think the only non neutral white light ive got since then was the quark Ti

Crenshaw


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## NoFair (Nov 13, 2009)

gunga said:


> Yep, I agree, all my lights are now modded to neutral. Any new ones must be either modded or come in neutral already...



This seems to be where I'll end up as well. 

Still hesitant to tear apart my old and loved U2 though.. The other U2 is getting a neutral white at the Milky labs at the moment


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## TDL (Nov 13, 2009)

I have a NW 2AA tactical quark and also I am very pleased for same. It is in my nighstand. But then again, I could not resist purchasing the 2AA tactical titanium quark even if same did not come with NW.lovecpf


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## pipspeak (Nov 13, 2009)

I think part of the problem is that warm tints don't photograph very well in outdoor environments so it's hard to really understand what the fuss is all about until you experience one first hand.


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## OceanView (Nov 14, 2009)

Linger said:


> In urban areas...cool is best reflecting off ashpalt or concrete. Cool tint is also a visually distinct tint...


I'm a HUGE warm/NW fan myself, but this quote above reminds of some of the talk on CPF before the Pelican 7060 came out as a new, high-powered LED duty light. I forget if it was an official statement or just something someone heard, but I recall someone saying that the LAPD requested a cool tint from Pelican, even though something whiter was available (obviously, we're talking about the pre-NW/pre-warm tint days). 

The reason given was that a cool beam was apparently better for penetrating dark window tinting. But I can certainly see Linger's point, too. Whenever I see a cool, high powered LED being used by police at night, it's still rather eye-catching compared to the mostly incans still being used by many/most LEO in my neck of the woods. Unfortunately, that bluish tint annoys the heck out of my eyes. (And curse you drivers with bluish HID headlights! :green: )


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## Crenshaw (Nov 14, 2009)

pipspeak said:


> I think part of the problem is that warm tints don't photograph very well in outdoor environments so it's hard to really understand what the fuss is all about until you experience one first hand.



Thats the very essence of why warm lights are nice for photography. They look...NORMAL...while anything else will looked washed out. 

I cant stand the LED flash on my phone anymore, everything gets washed out. whenever possible, i use my Legolas, or Quark to provide the lighting instead, and invariably, things look nicer.

and i would say, blueish-white lights are the most outstanding, and dazzleing. while that doesnt make for good lighting, i will admit that I can use both normal, and warm tints to see equally well. So it makes sense for a cop to have the brightest possible light, and one that will get them noticed.

The reason for penetrative power into tinted windows will come more from throw than from tint. If you can bounce light inside the car, and somehow avoid backscatter, you will see the inside pretty clearly...

Crenshaw


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## kaichu dento (Nov 14, 2009)

NonSenCe said:


> welcome to the gang.. (should we start one..? )
> 
> some still need more output.. but i think all my warm tint lights are bright enough for my uses.. but not dim enough.


You just described my feelings perfectly. While others are asking for more and more output, I'm pretty happy with the high on my lights, but really wish they could go lower, and did I mention, neutral tints for me tool!


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## flatline (Nov 14, 2009)

Linger said:


> In urban areas:
> But cool is best reflecting off ashpalt or concrete. Cool tint is also a visually distinct tint - warm tint may blend too well with ambient / background lighting (moon light, etc.). Shining my warm tint mc-e on the road vs. cool tint mc-e (same driver for each light) the cool just 'pops' out, the warm fades in



What you've just described is why I prefer neutral tint. I don't want to see my flashlight's light reflected back at me, I want to see my target. Even worse, my cool emitters are more likely to have visible beams in humid air which, while pretty neat looking, makes it harder to see my target and wreaks havoc on my night vision (very similar to using a flashlight in the fog). Neutral tints seem closer to sunlight to me, and my brain is very good at handling sunlight. I find cool tints to be distracting.

--flatline


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## yellow (Nov 14, 2009)

the fun part ist: one can type hours to explain that, someone who not got that "clue", wont believe.
Needs a few years of flashlight use to learn that
 

*neutral tints rule, where is my neutral XP-G?*

(and when You have built neutral XP-Gs, start to build warm white led that give the same output than neutral/cool white ones)


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## Swedpat (Nov 14, 2009)

Thank you OfficerCamp for sharing your new experience! :wave:

You are not alone to discover that a warm colour tint is more important than a slightly higher output. And we already can see that neutral white alternative starts to be available for almost every model.
I have mentioned it before in some other thread that I don't exclude the possibility that neutral white emitters soon may be the standard rather than an alternative option. 

Regards, Patric


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## PhantomPhoton (Nov 14, 2009)

A big +1 to this thread. I experienced my first neutral tint from a Dereelight well over a year ago. And from there I got hooked and I've refused to buy more and more lights due to no option for a Neutral tint. 

The Cree XP-G neutrals aren't available yet afaik, but hopefully we'll see them in decent availability by the beginning of 2010. I'm saving my money for that manufacturer who gets a quality neutral XP-G light out first (hopefully 18650 w/ full regulation too :naughty


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## divine (Nov 14, 2009)

Welcome to the dark, I mean neutral, side.


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## TooSharp (Nov 16, 2009)

yellow said:


> *neutral tints rule, where is my neutral XP-G?*
> 
> (and when You have built neutral XP-Gs, start to build warm white led that give the same output than neutral/cool white ones)



Cree hasn't even put them in their XP-G spec table. 4Sevens said he asked Cree and they said not till next year.


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## rayman (Nov 16, 2009)

I totally agree. My first high-performance LED-light was my Jet-III Pro. At this time I was only into output. In one of the Q3-5A groupbuys I ordered two warm Crees just for fun and put it in my EX10. At first I wasn't very impressed but now I would never buy a flashlight with a cold-tint anymore.

rayman


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## Metal Dog (Nov 16, 2009)

You can count me as another person who has been "ruined" by neutral warm tints. I'm in the process of replacing all my Surefire 6p and C2 lights with neutral drop ins. My Quark NW tacticals and Dereelight dropins are to blame.


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## boojum (Nov 16, 2009)

Those of you who might be interested in getting a neutral white AA or 123 version of the new 4Sevens Quark Mini may want to check out the CPF Marketplace Forums discussion about this possiblity. David of 4Sevens said:


4sevens; said:


> If we hit 100, I'll open a "contingent" pre-order and take orders for 2 weeks. Once we get payments from everyone who committed here we'll put in into production which should be about 3 weeks including procuring the neutral white led's. If we don't get a pre-order from everyone who committed here or 100 orders, then we'll refund everyone  Sounds fair?


At last count we're within 14 of getting the neutral white Quark Mini AA pre-order opened, with a number of commitments appearing in the last couple of days. The plan is to use the Cree XP-E Q3 5B tint, since the XP-G series won't have available neutral tints for some time. See the:

*4Sevens Quark Mini AA - Neutral Tint - Commitments needed!*​
thread for details. A number of people are also requesting the Quark Mini 123 in neutral white. The first post counts are not updated, so read the end of the thread for the current count if you might be interested. This would be a great way to start out the New Year.


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## Mr. Tone (Nov 16, 2009)

boojum said:


> The plan is to use the Cree XP-E R3 5B tint, since the XP-G series won't have available neutral tints for some time.


 
Don't you mean XP-E Q3 5B , not R3? There is no R3 XP-E in any tint to my knowledge. I think we should use the Q4 5B since it is the same tint but slightly more efficient than Q3, but I will get one(or two) no matter which.

I am in the same boat as most of you other guys. I can't go back now that I have experienced the nice neutral tints. Incands(not overdriven) are too warm for me, and most LED lights are too cool or blueish. The neutral LEDs find the nice middle ground!


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## lights (Nov 16, 2009)

OfficerCamp said:


> True, Outersquare. I'll take a nice smooth beam pattern WITH a nice neutral tint. There are too many lights that fit this description to tolerate anything else. I'm falling in love with my Nitecore D10 all over again, mine has a nice creamy neutral tint.




just curious which emitter you put in it, and what if any optical mods. 


i want to swap mine. hard?


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## Sgt. LED (Nov 16, 2009)

Mr. Tone said:


> I think we should use the Q4 5B since it is the same tint but slightly more efficient than Q3,


 *Agreed!*


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## boojum (Nov 16, 2009)

Mr. Tone said:


> Don't you mean XP-E Q3 5B , not R3?


Yes, typo corrected.



Sgt. LED said:


> Mr. Tone said:
> 
> 
> > *I think we should use the Q4 5B since it is the same tint but slightly more efficient than Q3,* but I will get one(or two) no matter which.
> ...



David said that he would check on the 5B tint availability yesterday, and I don't think anyone would object to Q4. Most people said Q3 or brighter, but we had to get agreement on a specific model, light and tint for the contingent pre-order. I think we're down to needing 12 more people to commit to the neutral white Mini Quark AA to get the contingent pre-order open.


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## OfficerCamp (Nov 16, 2009)

I just finished my Surefire M3/Nailbender MC-E neutral project. This torch is a beast, and I have no reason to ever buy another flashlight .

After testing out this light; +1 for never buying a cool tint emitter again.


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## amaretto (Nov 24, 2009)

Just got my first "power"-LED-Flashlight with neutral/warm tint (Eagletac M2X). I only had cool tints before but this new light is beautiful. My first impression was a little bit disappointment. Where were the >600 lumens? Maybe i expected a more blinding light and that's exactly the case with the cool tints. Cool tint is impressive and sometimes blinding because of too much kelvin. But it is always useful? The warm tint just helps finding everything in the dark without blinding me. Colours are more natural too but that was reported by many others before.

Beside LEDs i do like HID's with a neutral tint too. I think < 4500 k max. would be nice.

Here's a comparison with two identical flashlights, one with cool and one with neutral tint (thanx to Wattnot for pictures and great review)









taken from this review:
https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/231133


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## kaichu dento (Nov 24, 2009)

amaretto said:


> Here's a comparison with two identical flashlights, one with cool and one with neutral tint (thanx to Wattnot for pictures and great review)
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Whenever I look at pictures like this I can at once understand why some still prefer cool tints, because the trees look so visible, and why others like myself, prefer the warmer tint, as it's easier to interpret what you're seeing.

One of my first comparison methods has been to shine the light out into the woods and see how easy it is to pick out things beyond some of the branches and between the tree trunks and I've come to two conclusions; narrow beams penetrate better, but primarily when it comes to tint, cooler tints seem to act more as a veil, while the warmer tint allows easier visibility, even with branches partially obscuring your vision.


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## WHT_GE8 (Nov 24, 2009)

Wow those pictures are awesome, I wish we had more options for warm/neutral tint.


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## kramer5150 (Nov 25, 2009)

It goes way beyond tint. Its about CRI, as much as color tint. Warm tinted LEDs are still significantly lower CRI than a well driven incan.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Color_rendering_index

Another thread here...
https://www.candlepowerforums.com/posts/3093351

:duck:


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## ZMZ67 (Nov 25, 2009)

I have lost interest in cool tinted LED lights.I have plenty of "cool" tinted lights that I can use indoors but once I go outside I want an neutral/warm LED light or an incan.


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## DHart (May 23, 2011)

My JetBeam III Military in Q3-5A (warm) and the neutral tint XP-G R4 emitters Quark offered last year (er.... or was it 2009?) really got me appreciating the neutral to warmish tints. 

Since then, almost every light I have purchased, including Preon, Quark, several Zebralights and a Thrunight XM-L single AA light are with neutral tint. 

At this point, I've got all the lumens I need in any given light, so if the makers will just offer neutral or slightly warm tints, and if possible high(er) CRI, I will be a happy camper. 

I too think that neutral will (or at least should) be considered as the "standard" flashlight emitter tint, rather than some "special" option. Count me as another in this group who generally chooses to only buy lights with great tint offerings (i.e., neutral, slightly warm, and preferrably higher CRI).

We've got plenty of lumen quantity at this point; let's focus on lumen quality now!


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## Cypher_Aod (May 23, 2011)

I've just recently joined the warm/neutral tint brotherhood, i bought an XP-G dropin from nailbender with a Q2 3000k-tinted 90-CRI emitter - it's just heavenly.

i think, while i can still use my coolwhite LED's, i'm unlikely to buy any more in the future. Neutral/warm for me forever


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## mvyrmnd (May 23, 2011)

It's interesting to see people's reactions to neutral lights even just 2 years ago. I was the same.

Now the High CRI XP-G has rendered all my neutral lights obsolete. Now my challenge is to reconcile my love of multi-thousand lumen lights, and warm, high CRI Lights...


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## flashflood (May 23, 2011)

mvyrmnd said:


> Now the High CRI XP-G has rendered all my neutral lights obsolete.


 
Oh, no (says my wallet) -- it's really that good, eh?


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## mvyrmnd (May 23, 2011)

I've given up using all my other lights. It's that good.

The standard 3000K XP-G looks kind of pink and weird. The High CRI XP-G has extra amber to increase the CRI, and it's wonderful and 'neutral'. There's no particular color that stands out.


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## flashflood (May 23, 2011)

mvyrmnd said:


> I've given up using all my other lights. It's that good.
> 
> The standard 3000K XP-G looks kind of pink and weird. The High CRI XP-G has extra amber to increase the CRI, and it's wonderful and 'neutral'. There's no particular color that stands out.


 
Wow. That's great/awful.

I've warmed up to neutrals recently, but still enjoy cool tints. Really, almost anything on the Planckian locus looks pretty good to me. It's the tints that wander deep into green (S/T or above) or magenta (T/U or below) that are problematic.


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## beerwax (May 23, 2011)

im just finding nuetrals so i guess that makes me 'grasshopper'. at first they appeared 'odd' but now i like em. and now i notice colour temp of other lights like my car headlights or in the home. hmmm high CRI . for now i am safe for there are no offerings in the markets i frequent.


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## mvyrmnd (May 23, 2011)

beerwax said:


> and now i notice colour temp of other lights like my car headlights or in the home.


 
I'm the same. 3500K is just about perfect for me. I'm content with the 3000K XP-G's though. I have a few 4000K lights and they're just not quite perfect, for me.

All of this is pure personal preference. To some people, 6500K cool whites are the go, and 3000K lights look ugly and brown.


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## EngrPaul (May 23, 2011)

If you aim a cool white beam at an apple tree, you see a tree.

If you aim a neutral white beam at an apple tree, you see the difference between the leaves and the fruit.

Cool white LED's have so much blue that it takes things out of focus. Your retina has very few blue receptors, and the signal the blue receptors send is amplified to compensate. These two things together mean your eyes cannot focus blue light very well, and light with a lot of blue can be tiring when using for a long period of time, such as reading.


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## mvyrmnd (May 23, 2011)

EngrPaul said:


> If you aim a cool white beam at an apple tree, you see a tree.
> 
> If you aim a neutral white beam at an apple tree, you see the difference between the leaves and the fruit.
> 
> Cool white LED's have so much blue that it takes things out of focus. Your retina has very few blue receptors, and the signal the blue receptors send is amplified to compensate. These two things together mean your eyes cannot focus blue light very well, and light with a lot of blue can be tiring when using for a long period of time, such as reading.


 
Not to mention that with a cool tint light, the tree looks flat, but with a neutral / warm you have much better depth perception.


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## LEDAdd1ct (May 23, 2011)

mvyrmnd said:


> It's interesting to see people's reactions to neutral lights even just 2 years ago. I was the same.
> 
> Now the High CRI XP-G has rendered all my neutral lights obsolete.


 


mvyrmnd said:


> I've given up using all my other lights. It's that good.
> 
> The standard 3000K XP-G looks kind of pink and weird. The High CRI XP-G has extra amber to increase the CRI, and it's wonderful and 'neutral'. There's no particular color that stands out.


 


flashflood said:


> Wow. That's great/awful.


 
That _is_ great/awful. I have one cool white light inbound from Mr. Paul, and if I like the light and decide to keep it, I was going to swap it for an XP-G R4 5C1. But if the difference between neutral and high-CRI is really that pronounced...oh well. I guess I am holding on to the notion that if I am in the woods or poking around the yard, it is better to have the R4 efficiency bin over the Q2 efficiency bin, and have more lumens in neutral than way less in high-CRI.


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## AnotherADDiction (May 23, 2011)

I agree with the high CRI. I have recently received a NB 3000k high CRI Linger special - this makes my eyes feel so 'relaxed' when I use it as well as lighting up everything well. I wish that all of my lights had this LED, it makes it very hard to go back to anything else. I am sorry that I waited so long to try one. Now, I just need to modify a bunch of lights that I have


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## sqlpn24 (May 25, 2011)

Been meaning to get a neutral tint light for some time now. This thread makes me want to get several lights mentioned here, but Ill probly be getting an EagleTac P20A2 MKII in the XRE neutral tint and hopefully soon. Geesh this forum is rough on the old pocketbook!


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## plainsman (May 25, 2011)

Working in digital photography and graphic arts, all our monitors are calibrated to a 6500K standard. After being immersed in this color temp all day every day, warm tinted emitters seem more odd looking to me. I guess to a certain degree what looks more "real" depends on your past visual experiences.


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## egrep (Jul 5, 2011)

boojum said:


> I think we're down to needing 12 more people to commit to the neutral white Mini Quark AA to get the contingent pre-order open.



Im in, where do I sign up?


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## nfetterly (Jul 5, 2011)

I've noted this before in other threads - I was in a closed industrial building (NO LIGHT) - I had a SST-50 6500K light (I had the 4500 version of the same light, I was giving this a run). In the total pitch dark there was NO depth perception. Being in an industrial site that I did not know it was quite scary. Fortunately my superintendent had a magcharger and all was good. That really tipped it over for me. Neutral to warm.


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## Maxbelg (Jul 6, 2011)

I am also a recent convert to neutral/warm LEDs especially outdoors. I guess they all already have higher CRIs than the standard cold LEDs, which makes them more pleasant to use outside. My favorites are a M60W and my M61 HCRI and M61L HCRI! I can still use my cold LEDs indoors, but outdoors they seem to make the foliage seem pale and lifeless.


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## Cypher_Aod (Jul 6, 2011)

up until recently the only non cool-white LED i'd had any personal experience with was the 3000k 90CRI XP-G in my Nailbender dropin, but i very much liked what i saw, which is why when i ordered one of Steve's (kuk427) E-series LED modules i went for a neutral-white, expecting it to be somewhere inbetween the harsh blue cool-white and the gorgeous warm of my 3000k XP-G.

Man was i surprised when the thing arrived! the colour is almost a greenish pinky white, i found it very odd, and without a side-by-side comparison i actually thought it was a cool-white with a bad tint!
Side by side comparisons show that it's definitely a neutral-white, though i'm not sure if this sample just didn't win the tint-lottery.

I love it either way though, seeing as it makes my E2E completely EDC-able 

_*For those of you who don't like the "normal" CREE neutral whites, try out the high-CRI 3000K XP-G's if you have an opportunity, it's like all the joy of an incan with none of the pain *_


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## mvyrmnd (Jul 7, 2011)

Cypher_Aod said:


> For those of you who don't like the "normal" CREE neutral whites, try out the high-CRI 3000K XP-G's if you have an opportunity, it's like all the joy of an incan with none of the pain


 
+∞!


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## Lou Minescence (Oct 20, 2011)

I picked up my first 2 neutral tint lights this week. Neutral is better in the fog and rain. There is less light reflection off of the moisture would be my way to describe it.


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## Flying Turtle (Oct 21, 2011)

I get it every night around the house when I use the SC50w+ Zebralight. The older, cooler tints just look bad to me now. It will be very tough to buy anything, except maybe some cheapos, that are not neutral to warm.

Geoff


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## windsurf (Oct 22, 2011)

I agree about the cool tints looking bad. I finally "saw the light" 3 weeks ago with a Xeno E03 NW. Really like the tint (or lack of!) and ordered a second one. Also, bought a Quark 'X' AA^2 NW to replace my Quark AA XP-G R5 (missed out on their earlier NW runs).


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## white_feather (Oct 24, 2011)

I'm clueless. I have a Fenix PD-30. What is the color tint on that? I was just talking to my wife about the different colors of flashlights but didn't have another light to compare it to.


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## js82 (Oct 28, 2011)

I also insist on neutrals only for general purpose flashlights. The colors looks correct compared to warm or cool, and it doesn't have that washout look of cool.

Having said that, I really don't understand the warm/high CRI craze. Is it the yellow mood effect that people like? Or do people think they can tell colors better just as how we see things under sunlight? I really can't agree with the 2nd reason cuz I have a hard time distinguishing between something that's actually white and something that's yellow under incandescent lighting. There's an article you can find on google by searching "incandescent cri temperature" that talks about how CRI doesn't actually tell you how well it renders color compared to sunlight. CRI tells you how well it renders color compared to other light sources of the same temperature. Someone wanna point out if what they're saying is false?


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## Brasso (Oct 28, 2011)

Because it mimics incandescent light and it's not blue. You may think it's not blue compared to your average led, but when I see one that people call white, I see blue. And it still washed everything out in a ghostly haze. The warm and high cri don't. And they increase depth perception.


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## tbenedict (Oct 28, 2011)

EngrPaul said:


> If you aim a cool white beam at an apple tree, you see a tree.
> 
> If you aim a neutral white beam at an apple tree, you see the difference between the leaves and the fruit.
> 
> Cool white LED's have so much blue that it takes things out of focus. Your retina has very few blue receptors, and the signal the blue receptors send is amplified to compensate. These two things together mean your eyes cannot focus blue light very well, and light with a lot of blue can be tiring when using for a long period of time, such as reading.


 
Not sure how I missed this before, but that is a darn good example and explanation. 

Kind of like seeing the bird between the leaves.


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## js82 (Oct 28, 2011)

Brasso said:


> Because it mimics incandescent light and it's not blue. You may think it's not blue compared to your average led, but when I see one that people call white, I see blue. And it still washed everything out in a ghostly haze. The warm and high cri don't. And they increase depth perception.



So when you look at things under the sun do they also look washed out?

When you say you have increased depth perception with warm/high cri lights, do you mean as a personal experience or is there some scientific study behind it?


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## kaichu dento (Oct 28, 2011)

js82 said:


> I really don't understand the warm/high CRI craze. Is it the yellow mood effect that people like? Or do people think they can tell colors better just as how we see things under sunlight? I really can't agree with the 2nd reason cuz I have a hard time distinguishing between something that's actually white and something that's yellow under incandescent lighting.


Here's the best way to understand the phenomenon (not craze, as that insinuates a brainless following, of which it most definitely is not). Some people enjoy the warmth of the appearance and some people prefer high contrast and both are right. Neither choice is right, neither choice is wrong - just like rare, medium or well-done, your choice is the right choice, for you.


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## js82 (Oct 29, 2011)

kaichu dento said:


> Here's the best way to understand the phenomenon (not craze, as that insinuates a brainless following, of which it most definitely is not). Some people enjoy the warmth of the appearance and some people prefer high contrast and both are right. Neither choice is right, neither choice is wrong - just like rare, medium or well-done, your choice is the right choice, for you.



Yes, I can appreciate that some people like the warmth. In my room I use warm white lights cuz it's more relaxing than neutral/cool for me. But what I don't understand is the contrast. You say there's more contrast with warm white, but wouldn't that depend on what colors you're trying to contrast? I have a hard time differentiating between a slightly yellow white and a true white under incandescent. How is that better than with neutral?


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## mikedeason (Oct 29, 2011)

amaretto said:


> Here's a comparison with two identical flashlights, one with cool and one with neutral tint (thanx to Wattnot for pictures and great review)
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Intersting thread!

I must be in a MAJOR MINORITY but I by far prefer the pure white in the first pic. The colors look much clearer and cleaner and the scene just looks brighter.

In my opinion battery life is the next step forward, not tint.

Pack the longevity of an 18650 in an AAA size and you have the next revolution.


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## Connor (Oct 29, 2011)

mikedeason said:


> Intersting thread!
> 
> I must be in a MAJOR MINORITY but I by far prefer the pure white in the first pic. The colors look much clearer and cleaner and the scene just looks brighter.



It may look clearer and brighter to you but in fact what you see is *not* a realistic representation of the colours as you would see them under natural sunlight/a high(er) CRI light source. 
Reds and browns are missing and blues and greens are exaggerated by quite a bit in the left picture.


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## mikedeason (Oct 29, 2011)

It may not be a true representation but at night I prefer brighter and to my eyes the brighter produces a more aethetically pleasing vision. 

I dont know if the green of the grass is "true" in the first pic but I much prefer the sharper green cast by the pure white in the first.

Subjective to be sure but I am all for brighter is better.


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## kaichu dento (Oct 29, 2011)

js82 said:


> Yes, I can appreciate that some people like the warmth. In my room I use warm white lights cuz it's more relaxing than neutral/cool for me. But what I don't understand is the contrast. You say there's more contrast with warm white, but wouldn't that depend on what colors you're trying to contrast? I have a hard time differentiating between a slightly yellow white and a true white under incandescent. How is that better than with neutral?


You got my statement exactly wrong. My intention was to suggest that it was either warmth for some of us (warm tint) or high contrast (cool tint).


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## js82 (Oct 29, 2011)

kaichu dento said:


> You got my statement exactly wrong. My intention was to suggest that it was either warmth for some of us (warm tint) or high contrast (cool tint).



Oh. I didn't know that cool was "high contrast". Is it really high contrast though? For me cool makes everything look more similar.

Anyway, I was hoping for input from people who say that the colors are more correct with warm whites.


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## Connor (Oct 29, 2011)

mikedeason said:


> It may not be a true representation but at night I prefer brighter and to my eyes the brighter produces a more aethetically pleasing vision.
> 
> I dont know if the green of the grass is "true" in the first pic but I much prefer the sharper green cast by the pure white in the first.
> 
> Subjective to be sure but I am all for brighter is better.



Keep in mind that those pictures are not scientifically perfect with the lights shining exactly at the same spot, possibly not having the exact same battery voltage etc. 
Neutral white are usually one bin below cold white LEDs which equals 7% less lumens (again in average, can be more, can be less depending on your luck of draw). It's very hard if not impossible to see this difference with your eyes even if everything else in the setup is perfectly identical. 

For me, the most important aspect of higher CRI LEDs is that I can recognize any coloured object much better and faster if it is showing its natural colours (as opposed to a rather strong blue/green hue). Outsides in the nature this makes all the difference in the world. If you want to validate my claim yourself, take a reddish/brownish object of some kind and throw it into a field of grass and try to find it with a CW and a NW LED.


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## js82 (Oct 29, 2011)

Connor said:


> Keep in mind that those pictures are not scientifically perfect with the lights shining exactly at the same spot, possibly not having the exact same battery voltage etc.
> Neutral white are usually one bin below cold white LEDs which equals 7% less lumens (again in average, can be more, can be less depending on your luck of draw). It's very hard if not impossible to see this difference with your eyes even if everything else in the setup is perfectly identical.
> 
> For me, the most important aspect of higher CRI LEDs is that I can recognize any coloured object much better and faster if it is showing its natural colours (as opposed to a rather strong blue/green hue). Outsides in the nature this makes all the difference in the world.



Do you think warm high CRI LEDs show the true colors of objects better than neutral tints?


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## Connor (Oct 29, 2011)

js82 said:


> Do you think warm high CRI LEDs show the true colors of objects better than neutral tints?



Yes, because warm white LEDs usually have a bit higher CRI rating (because of the way they are made - there are no cold white high CRI LEDs yet). The human brain is "filtering away" colour temperature anyway after a short time. So if you don't absolutely *hate* the warmer more yellow tint use WW LEDs for better colour perception or neutral whites as some sort of compromise.


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## js82 (Oct 29, 2011)

Connor said:


> Yes, because warm white LEDs usually have a bit higher CRI rating. The human brain is filtering colour temperature anyway after a short time. So if you don't absolutely *hate* the warmer more yellow tint, WW LEDs are better for colour perception.



Are you able to distinguish between a slightly yellowish white and plain white under incandescent or warm high cri LED lighting? How about if they're illuminated with a neutral tint?

I ask because I don't understand why people say they can distinguish the colors of objects better with warm high CRI lighting as opposed to neutral LEDs.


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## Connor (Oct 29, 2011)

js82 said:


> Are you able to distinguish between a slightly yellowish white and plain white under incandescent or warm high cri LED lighting? How about if they're illuminated with a neutral tint?



Yes, I am and you are, too. ;-)
As I said, the human brain filters away the colour temperature after a few moments (minutes) of use. If your warm white yellowish LED is the only light source (and has a high CRI (>85)) you will easily be able to distinguish even minor differences in "whites" (and even more so in red and brown colours, because that's where cold white low CRI LEDs are the weakest). The same is true for neutral whites to a somewhat lesser degree.


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## js82 (Oct 29, 2011)

Connor said:


> Yes, I am and you are, too. ;-)
> As I said, the human brain filters away the colour temperature after a few moments (minutes) of use. If your warm white yellowish LED is the only light source (and has a high CRI (>85)) you will easily be able to distinguish even minor differences in "whites" (and even more so in red and brown colours, because that's where cold white low CRI LEDs are the weakest). The same is true for neutral whites to a somewhat lesser degree.



Then I have to conclude that our brains work differently because my brain doesn't filter away the color temperature. My room is lit with a warm fluorescent and a warm white LED. Everything looks yellowish even when I've stayed in my room for hours. The tiles on my floor look more yellow under warm lights rather than just ivory-like under sunlight or a neutral LED.

So when you exit a warm white room and walk into daylight, does everything appear super blue initially?


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## Connor (Oct 29, 2011)

js82 said:


> Then I have to conclude that our brains work differently because my brain doesn't filter away the color temperature. My room is lit with a warm fluorescent and a warm white LED. Everything looks yellowish even when I've stayed in my room for hours. The tiles on my floor look more yellow under warm lights rather than just ivory-like under sunlight or a neutral LED.
> 
> So when you exit a warm white room and walk into daylight, does everything appear super blue initially?



I have high CRI (>92) ESLs in my living room which are 6500°K / cold white *and* high CRI (something not yet possible in LEDs), and warm white halogen/normal bulbs in other parts of the house. When I was in my room for a while and go into the rooms with the warmer white lights, everything is looking much more yellowish for a short while. Same is true the other way round, if I start in the warm white area, my 6500°K lights look more blue for a few minutes. 

Mind that there is much less pure white out in the nature, well, except for that snowy stuff around winter time perhaps (where a cold white LED could be the better choice, even though trees and other red/brown objects will still look washed out).


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## js82 (Oct 29, 2011)

Connor said:


> I have high CRI (>92) ESLs in my living room which are 6500°K / cold white *and* high CRI (something not yet possible in LEDs), and warm white halogen/normal bulbs in other parts of the house. When I was in my room for a while and go into the rooms with the warmer white lights, everything is looking much more yellowish for a short while. Same is true the other way round, if I start in the warm white area, my 6500°K lights look more blue for a few minutes.
> 
> Mind that there is much less pure white out in the nature, well, except for that snowy stuff around winter time perhaps (where a cold white LED could be the better choice, even though trees and other red/brown objects will still look washed out).



That's interesting. I've never experienced that shifting in color temperature. Each person's brain is really rather different, like how some can see PWM really easily while others can't. Anyway, for me, the color temperatures don't change at all. That's why I prefer neutral over warm.

Actually, I hear cool white in snow isn't good. They say it reflects back too much. I haven't tried so I don't know. The only cool whites I buy are for weapon mounting and emergency signaling (strobe, beacon, and SOS).


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## Connor (Oct 29, 2011)

One thing is for sure, colour perception is highly personal, the same tint might be unacceptably yellow for one person and too cool for the next. My personal sweet spot would likely be somewhere around 5500°K and 100 CRI. ;-)
We really need LEDs where colour temperature and CRI are independent of each other!


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## kaichu dento (Oct 29, 2011)

js82 said:


> Oh. I didn't know that cool was "high contrast". Is it really high contrast though? For me cool makes everything look more similar.
> 
> Anyway, I was hoping for input from people who say that the colors are more correct with warm whites.


For my own personal perspective there is a higher contrast with cool tints (black & white) but better capacity to resolve what I'm seeing with warmer tints. So your idea of things looking more similar I believe is mirrored in my tendency to think of cooler tints showing less depth of field, albeit with higher contrast.
More depth of field, but less contrast, with warmer tints. 
Some would rather have the higher contrast and overall brighter light, crisper edges, and not bothered by the lack of depth, while I, among others, would either prefer the ease of recognition of what is being seen that comes with warmer tints, or just derives enjoyment from the lifelike warmth that comes from the more flame colored outputs.

That's how I see it.


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