# TSA banning certain batteries



## ltiu (Dec 23, 2007)

I don't think this has been posted before. This is very useful for everyone so I am posting it for all to read:

http://www.tsa.gov/travelers/airtravel/assistant/batteries.shtm


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## Bullzeyebill (Dec 23, 2007)

*Re: TSA on lithium batteries*



ltiu said:


> I don't think this has been posted before. This is very useful for everyone so I am posting it for all to read:
> 
> http://www.tsa.gov/travelers/airtravel/assistant/batteries.shtm



What is the date of this TSA advisement? 

Bill


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## lebox97 (Dec 24, 2007)

*Re: TSA on lithium batteries*

nothing new there...
"....the Federal Aviation Administration has studied fire hazards associated with both primary and lithium-ion cells, and their extensive research is publicly available. As a result of this research, *the FAA no longer allows large, palletized shipments of these batteries to be transported as cargo on passenger aircraft.*" (my bold and underline)

leave your pallets of lithium-ion cells at home - stick to carry on/arm loads, and you'll be fine 

(FYI, I recently carried on a unopened Costco Eneloop charger/battery case onto an airplane and security did not glance at it twice)


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## ErickThakrar (Dec 28, 2007)

Check this out

http://www.boingboing.net/2007/12/28/tsas-new-forbidden-i.html


Anybody know the actual lithium content in a CR123?


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## Alan B (Dec 28, 2007)

This confirms a thought I had recently. We now need spare battery carriers that are also flashlights, so they are not considered "spare". Just a pushbutton and low power LED/resistor to make it a legal flashlight.

I wish they would just require TSA approved spare battery carriers.

So, save all your old flashlights for carrying spare batteries.

Anyone have any 8xCR123 lights ??

Convert everything to NiMH.

-- Alan


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## Manzerick (Dec 28, 2007)

Sounds like a job for a "spare" M6 




Alan B said:


> Anyone have any 8xCR123 lights ??
> 
> 
> 
> -- Alan


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## 65535 (Dec 28, 2007)

I just flew on both the 19th from LAX and the 24th from Florida International and neither my U2 E1e or my 4 spare cells got even a first look, let alone a second.


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## ErickThakrar (Dec 28, 2007)

well, if you'd read the article it does state that it's effective from January 1st, 2008. And if the batteries contain more than 2 grams of lithium they're outright banned, installed or not, spare or not. So the real question is... How much lithium in weight is there in a CR123?


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## MikeLip (Dec 28, 2007)

Was there a sudden rash of downed airliners caused by lithiums that I was unaware of, or is this yet another example of government solving a non-existent problem?


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## ErickThakrar (Dec 28, 2007)

I'm thinking it was probably brought on, atleast in part, by the couple of incidents were lithiums exploded in a flashlight. Remember that happened a year or two ago, I think in LA?


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## ampdude (Dec 28, 2007)

What about all the lithium ion batteries in everything from cell phones to laptops. Those are more dangerous. Are those okay?


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## cave dave (Dec 28, 2007)

Well their was another thread on this 3 days ago;
https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/183980

"Currently, neither FAA nor TSA plan to ban traveling with battery-powered devices."
from TSA website:
http://www.tsa.gov/travelers/airtravel/assistant/batteries.shtm

Print this page and bring it along!


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## cave dave (Dec 28, 2007)

More info:

From "banned" website: "For a lithium metal battery, whether installed in a device or carried as a spare, the limit on lithium content is 2 grams of lithium metal per battery. Almost all consumer-type lithium metal batteries are below 2 grams of lithium metal."

A CR123 contains about 4.2 Watt-hours. so if 8g of lithium is about 100 Wh then a CR123 would have a li content of about *0.34g*


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## ErickThakrar (Dec 28, 2007)

One, this is obviously NOT referring to carrying pallets of batteries. 
Two, this is also not referring to that previous thread. 

And thirdly, from the horses mouth: http://safetravel.dot.gov/whats_new_batteries.html

It does say that "almost all consumer batteries" are below 2 grams of lithium per battery. I would be very interested in finding out exactly how much there is in the different types. Same for Li-Ions. Not just SWAGing it but actual numbers. There's no telling how accurate the TSAs listed numbers are.


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## SilverFox (Dec 28, 2007)

Hello Erick,

I believe CR123 primary cells are listed as having 0.57 g of lithium in them.

Tom


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## depusm12 (Dec 28, 2007)

Well I flew out on the 21st of Dec and back on the 27th of Dec and had a total of 18 Li-Ion rechagable batteries and 2 chargers and cords in my carry on 2 in my Typhoon, 2 in my SF C2 and 6 in a SF spares carrier and 8 in a spares carrier. TSA never blinked and eyelid.


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## Timaxe (Dec 28, 2007)

The main restrictions appear to deal with checked baggage. I usually carry-on all of my spare batteries.

That said, the actual TSA website uses some "equivilent lithium content" unit. Using that we can derive how much is in the CR123...



> The limits are expressed in grams of “equivalent lithium content.” 8 grams of equivalent lithium content is approximately 100 watt-hours. 25 grams is approximately 300 watt-hours:


A CR123 primary has 3.0v nominal voltage, and I would guess 1300mAH capacity. Which is equal to 3.9 watt-hours. I think what they mean by Lithium Metal batteries are Lithium Primaries, so you have a 2 gram limit PER CELL. 2 grams would be equivalent of approximately 25 watt-hours. So unless you had a 8000mAH 3.0v Lithium Primary, these new rules won't affect you. (Note, there are apparently some Lithium Primary C cells that would have more than 2 grams, but note that these are primaries, aka non-rechargeable. I don't think they're popular at CPF.)

Now let's have a look at Lithium-Ion batteries. Apparently as long as these have less than 8 grams of Lithium Content you aren't affected. What capacity is this for 3.7v Lithium-Ions? 27,000mAH for a 3.7v Lithium-Ion is equivalent to 8 grams. My 3.7v AW C cells are only 12.21 watt hours, or about 1 gram each. Unless I had an 8x Lithium-C light (or RC car), I wouldn't bump into the 8 gram limit. But since each cell is below the 8 gram limit, _technically_ I could have as many of those floating around as I like the way I read it.

Let's just hope we don't run into screeners who don't know about batteries trying to confiscate our large cells. I fly on the 4th, so I guess I'll see first hand, though to be honest they've never even blinked at my camera bag (with lots of Lithium batteries, electronics, flashlights, flashes, amateur radio equipment, etc).


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## paulr (Dec 28, 2007)

I think there are some largish laptop batteries in the 100 WH range. My camcorder pack is around 60 WH so two of them would be over the limit.


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## SilverFox (Dec 28, 2007)

Please note:

The term "up to 2 g of lithium" includes the range 0 - 2 g.

Primary lithium cells have lithium metal in them. Sanyo lists 0.57 g of lithium in a CR123 cell.

Li-Ion cells do not have lithium metal in them. To convert to an equivalent lithium metal content, you need to multiply the capacity in Amp Hours by 0.3. If you have an 18650 2400 mAh cell, it would be classified as having the equivalent of 0.72 g of lithium metal.

Tom


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## ltiu (Dec 28, 2007)

ErickThakrar said:


> Check this out
> 
> http://www.boingboing.net/2007/12/28/tsas-new-forbidden-i.html
> 
> ...



Data sheet tells you a typical CR123 has less than 1 gram of lithium metal content:

http://data.energizer.com/PDFs/123.pdf

An e2 AA (L91) actually has more lithium metal:

http://data.energizer.com/PDFs/l91.pdf


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## jedikillerjango (Dec 28, 2007)

*Airline lithium battery restricitons*

I've lurked on here for quite some time, but finally decided to post.

It seems that our friends at the TSA have decided to add some restrictions on lithium batteries for air travelers. 

http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5h74l-BiD30YO0rsScUm-HdpKRTuAD8TQK0CO0

http://safetravel.dot.gov/whats_new_batteries.html

What would the limits on CR123 batteries be then?


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## ltiu (Dec 28, 2007)

*Re: Airline lithium battery restricitons*

This thread should be moved to the battery section.

There are already a lot of other other posts regarding this same topic.

https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/184424

http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/...d.php?t=183980


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## PhantomPhoton (Dec 28, 2007)

Well on the bright side, at least Lithium batteries aren't very heavy now that we're lugging a bunch around in carry-on.
I will be flying in February, so hopefully by then everything will be figured out by then.


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## Size15's (Dec 28, 2007)

*Re: Airline lithium battery restricitons*

jedikillerjango, Welcome to CPF! :welcome:
I've moved and combined your thread with this one, already established in the batteries forum.

Effective January 1, 2008:
The quantity limits apply to _*both*_ your spare and installed batteries.

*You may not pack spare lithium batteries in your checked baggage*
(It is strongly advised not to pack devices with installed lithium batteries in your checked baggage).

For primary lithium metal batteries (*CR123A, CR2* etc), whether installed in a device or carried as spares, the limit on lithium content is _*2 grams of lithium metal per battery*_.

*One CR123A battery is nominally less than 0.6 grams of lithium metal.*
Sanyo lists 0.57 grams of lithium in a CR123 cell
Energizer lists 0.55 grams of lithium in a EL123A cell



*Under the new rules, you can bring [rechargeable] lithium batteries with up to a total of 8 grams equivalent lithium content.*

Equivalent Lithium Content [for rechargeable lithium batteries] is measured as 0.3 times the rated capacity (ampere hour (Ah)) of the cell in ampere-hours, with the results expressed in grams. 
The lithium-equivalent content of the battery equals the sum of the grams of lithium-equivalent content contained in the component cells of the battery [pack].

(Example: a 18650 Li-Ion cell with 1.8 Ah of rated capacity would contain 0.54 grams of lithium (1.8 x 0.3) and 6 of these cells in a pack would equal 3.24 grams)

Please pm or email me if any of the above is incorrect and I'll edit it asap.

Al


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## OceanView (Dec 28, 2007)

The announcement on the TSA website is confusing for me. The rotating image on the home page shows a selection of lithium ion batteries only, like the kinds you'd recognize from a digital camera or video camera. However, if you click on it, the text description implies that it is the lithium primaries batteries that are the danger because if they catch on fire, they are not easily extinguishable with the fire fighting chemicals normally on board while lithium ion fires can be extinguished.

Anyway, if lithium ion packs are not the concern of this announcement, then it would seem to make more sense to show a photo of lithium primary batteries, like Energizers, so people can easily see what batteries are being addressed. Well, unless the TSA is being paid to advertise GP brand lithium ion packs.


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## FlashSpyJ (Dec 28, 2007)

How does this affect me ordering batterys from the US? Can I still order CR123 batterys over the internet from the US? And get them shipped?


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## Size15's (Dec 28, 2007)

FlashSpyJ said:


> How does this affect me ordering batterys from the US? Can I still order CR123 batterys over the internet from the US? And get them shipped?


Currently and for quite some time now Lithium batteries can not be shipped (freight) in the holds of commercial aircraft so have to be shipped via cargo aircraft. Regarding purchasing lithium batteries from the USA - situation normal afaik.


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## Tempest UK (Dec 28, 2007)

Good to hear we can still take a fair few CR123a with us. Although, looking at my last flights, I was probably over 14 SF123a with the lights I had in my carry-on. Hmm...

Regards,
Tempest


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## ltiu (Dec 28, 2007)

*Re: Airline lithium battery restricitons*



Size15's said:


> *Under the new rules, you can bring batteries with up to a total of 8 grams equivalent lithium content.*
> 
> For a lithium metal battery (*CR123A, CR2* etc), whether installed in a device or carried as a spare, the limit on lithium content is _2 grams of lithium metal per battery_.
> 
> ...



Apologies, I do not agree with your interpretation.

There seems to be some confusion in the text between lithium-ion and lithium primaries. In the text, it seems that they refer to lithium primaries as being "lithium metal" batteries.

I read it as, you can bring lithium primaries (lithium metal) with less than 2 grams of lithium metal "per" battery:

--------
For a lithium metal battery, whether installed in a device or carried as a spare, the limit on lithium content is 2 grams of lithium metal per battery.
-------

There is no limit on the "sum total" lithium metal of "all" your lithium primaries, at least, I read the statements:

--------
Under the new rules, you can bring batteries with up to 8-gram equivalent lithium content. All lithium ion batteries in cell phones are below 8 gram equivalent lithium content. Nearly all laptop computers also are below this quantity threshold.
You can also bring up to two spare batteries with an aggregate equivalent lithium content of up to 25 grams, in addition to any batteries that fall below the 8-gram threshold. Examples of two types of lithium ion batteries with equivalent lithium content over 8 grams but below 25 are shown below.
--------

as applying to lithium-ion only. If the statement above do apply to lithium primaries, then nothing in the statement says that the grand total sum of lithium metal in all your lithium "primary" batteries need to be below 8 grams or 25 grams respectively. The 8 grams and 25 gram limits seem to point at lithium-ion only, as indicated in the text.

Call the lawyers!


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## Size15's (Dec 28, 2007)

Tempest UK, 
Well quite.
My normal carry-on used to consist of an M6, SC1, U2, SC3, L2, SC3, UKE-2L (26 SF123A batteries) with a couple of SF12BB boxes in my checked luggage.

I'm going to have to re-think what I travel with.
I guess Titan, L1, A2, SC3 (total seven SF123A batteries, one CR2 battery) because I'd like to bring a couple SF123A-powered flashlights home with me!
Appears I was wrong and as long as they are correctly stored, we can carry as many CR123A batteries as we like in our carry-on luggage.
Still, I won't bring my M6 next time. I'll stick with my revised list...


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## ltiu (Dec 28, 2007)

Size15's said:


> Well quite.
> My normal carry-on used to consist of an M6, SC1, U2, SC3, L2, SC3, UKE-2L (26 SF123A batteries) with a couple of SF12BB boxes in my checked luggage.
> 
> I'm going to have to re-think what I travel with.
> I guess Titan, L1, A2, SC3 (total seven SF123A batteries, one CR2 battery) because I'd like to bring a couple SF123A-powered flashlights home with me!



You can always see how far you can bend the rules by bringing more. Bring used/dead CR123As to test so that if you have to throw them away at the security check, you won't be throwing away perfectly good CR123As.


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## Size15's (Dec 28, 2007)

ltiu,
Reading this
Panasonic Transport Update pdf again, I think you could be right.



> Consumer electronic devices (watches, calculating machines, cameras, cellular phones, lap-top computers, camcorders, etc.) containing lithium or lithium ion cells or batteries when carried by passengers or crew member for personal use. Each spare battery must be individually protected so as to prevent short circuits and carried in carry-on baggage only. In addition, each spare battery must not exceed the following:
> (i) For a lithium metal or lithium alloy battery, a lithium content of not more than 2 grams per battery; *or*
> (ii) For a lithium ion battery, an aggregate equivalent lithium content of not more than 8 grams per battery, except that up to two batteries with an aggregate equivalent lithium content of more than 8 grams but not more than 25 grams may be carried.


I think I was getting confused by 'packs' of CR123A's which is not applicable to individual CR123A batteries.

I'll edit my post above


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## abvidledUK (Dec 28, 2007)

Here too

http://www.macnn.com/articles/07/12/28/luggage.lithium.ban/


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## ampdude (Dec 28, 2007)

Flying is getting to be more of a hassle than it's worth. I feel sorry for those whose job forces them to fly often.


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## Size15's (Dec 28, 2007)

abvidledUK said:


> Here too
> http://www.macnn.com/articles/07/12/28/luggage.lithium.ban/


That's a completely different message / rule!



> batteries will either have to be inserted into a phone, notebook or other electronic device, or else dropped into a plastic bag, and bundled along with carry-on baggage *in a limit of two batteries per passenger*.


Is that two spare batteries per passenger, or two batteries total per passenger?
I think they must mean two spare batteries.
With this sort of thing "security" at airports are going to be just as confused as everybody else! :shakehead:

Clarification From a link on the TSA website:


> the rule limits individuals to bringing only two extended-life spare rechargeable lithium batteries (see attached illustration), such as laptop and professional audio/video/camera equipment lithium batteries in carry-on baggage



It does appear that primary Lithium batteries are not subject to the limitations rule, only the safe 'packaging' rule (including none in checked baggage)


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## abvidledUK (Dec 28, 2007)

Didn't seem to warrant a new thread !


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## lebox97 (Dec 28, 2007)

do you guy's really think that you are going to have a discussion with the TSA personnel and TSA supervisors about cell chemistries and how many grams each cell is? :thinking: 
their final answer is going to be - do you want on the plane or don't you! tic toc tic toc tic toc - plane door is closing (time is on their side).....

I just finished the year with 130,000+ air miles completed in increments of 500 and 1,000 miles at a time.... ie. I am in and out of airport security *A LOT*... 

so far TSA security expressed much more concern about my finger nail clippers (which I now put in the ziplock baggie and it still get's a hairy eyeball) than any of my lights or cells or many other electronics that I carry on with me (I refuse to check baggage - and have not done so in years)

but, I also *don't travel* with more than 2-3 lights and a spare cell or two for each. (if for some weird reason I need more cells - I'll buy them locally at my destination)

PS: I don't care what any of these "other" websites say - the TSA AND the specific airline makes the rules and enforcement - if you don't like it or agree with it - don't fly - use the train, car, bus, cycle or walk. :mecry:
rant off.


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## SilverFox (Dec 28, 2007)

Hello Al,

The next thing we have to get a reading on is what the term "battey" means.

A single cell can also be called a battery, but usually a battery is made up of several cells.

In the case of the M6, it uses 6 cells for its battery pack. If the battery magazine was considered a "battery," then it would exceed the 2 gram limit.

The same goes for cameras and camera equipment. If you are using Energizer L91 Lithium AA cells, and your camera uses 4 of these cells, it could be considered a 4 cell battery pack, and that would also exceed the 2 gram limit.

On the other hand, if you pulled the cells out and carried them separately, you may be OK. I don't see a limit to the amount of single primary cells that you can carry.

This is going to be interesting to see how it plays out...

Tom


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## Size15's (Dec 28, 2007)

lebox97 said:


> do you guy's really think that you are going to have a discussion with the TSA personnel and TSA supervisors about cell chemistries and how many grams each cell is? :thinking:
> their final answer is going to be - do you want on the plane or don't you! tic toc tic toc tic toc - plane door is closing (time is on their side).....


I agree. That's why I'm planning to slim down my flashlights to the minimum. I've been thinking about this some more and I may just take a Titan and an L1 with no spares. After all the USA is like a civilised country and it should be possible to buy replacement batteries if there is even a rudimentary retail economy in the settlements I am visiting.


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## lebox97 (Dec 28, 2007)

Size15's said:


> ... After all the USA is like a civilised country and it should be possible to buy replacement batteries if there is even a rudimentary retail economy in the settlements I am visiting.


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## abvidledUK (Dec 28, 2007)

Post transferred elsewhere


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## Size15's (Dec 28, 2007)

Perhaps best not to drift further off-topic.
Lets try keeping this thread on the topic of the new battery restrictions due to impact on passengers flying to and from the USA from 2008.


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## Lightguy27 (Dec 28, 2007)

Ok, I am about to take a trip to my fathers in NC and we go camping and atv'ing so my lights, and batts are a must. So assuming that SF 123's have less than 2 grams of lithium metal per battery than I can bring my two SC1's fully loaded and a couple boxes as long as I carry them on, right?

-Evan


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## ltiu (Dec 28, 2007)

abvidledUK said:


> Here too
> 
> http://www.macnn.com/articles/07/12/28/luggage.lithium.ban/



Sad thing about news reporters is that they typically are clueless with what they are reporting. In this article, they do not differentiate between rechargeable lithium-ion and lithium primaries. Let's hope TSA checkers are more informed.

Anyways, anyone flying with batteries after the 1st of January please share your experiences on this site ASAP.


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## ltiu (Dec 28, 2007)

abvidledUK said:


> Is there a site, ( ie market) or is it just Walmart, similar to Apliu Street Kowloon (Hong Kong) where you can buy good inexpensive CR123's over the counter in USA, and elsewhere.
> 
> This would help in the carrying of numerous, many unused, CR123's.
> 
> ...



I found that Lowe's (hardware store chain like Home Depot), sells inexpensive CR123A (relatively). I recently got SureFire 2x CR123A for less than $5 (something like $4.89) per pack (2x CR123A per pack). Pretty good price for a non-online brick and mortar store.

Online, you get them for something like $1.75 each.


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## Art Vandelay (Dec 28, 2007)

SilverFox said:


> Hello Al,
> 
> The next thing we have to get a reading on is what the term "battey" means.
> 
> ...


Good point. I hope that is not what they meant because lots of people are going to be confused. I think the average person on the street would say that a 3 D cell Mag has three batteries, and a 4 D cell Mag has 4 batteries.


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## lebox97 (Dec 28, 2007)

'for CR123 deals - go to "Good Deals"


for up-to-date TSA Government info - go to http://www.tsa.gov/
then, clicking on "New FAA Regulation on Spare Lithium Batteries (DOT.gov)" takes you here - http://phmsa.dot.gov/portal/site/PH...toid=24e4ffc638ef6110VgnVCM1000001ecb7898RCRD

as far as I am concerned - anything/everything else is hearsay as the below is what TSA will live by until something else changes.

from above link...
"PHMSA 11-07 Friday, December 28, 2007
Contact: Patricia Klinger or Joe Delcambre
Tel.: (202) 366-4831
New US DOT Hazmat Safety Rule to Place Lithium Battery Limits in Carry-on Baggage on Passenger Aircraft Effective January 1, 2008
Passengers will no longer be able to pack *loose* lithium batteries in *checked luggage* beginning January 1, 2008 once new federal safety rules take effect. The new regulation, designed to reduce the risk of lithium battery fires, *will continue to allow lithium batteries in checked baggage if they are installed in electronic devices, or in carry-on baggage if stored in plastic bags.*
Common consumer electronics such as travel cameras, cell phones, and most laptop computers are still allowed in carry-on and checked luggage. However, the rule limits individuals to bringing only two extended-life spare rechargeable lithium batteries (see attached illustration), such as laptop and professional audio/video/camera equipment lithium batteries in carry-on baggage.
"*Doing something as simple as keeping a spare battery in its original retail packaging or a plastic zip-lock bag will prevent unintentional short-circuiting and fires*," said Krista Edwards, Deputy Administrator of the U.S. Department of Transportation's Pipeline and Hazardous Materials Safety Administration.
Lithium batteries are considered hazardous materials because they can overheat and ignite in certain conditions. Safety testing conducted by the FAA found that current aircraft cargo fire suppression system would not be capable of suppressing a fire if a shipment of *non-rechargeable* lithium batteries were ignited in flight..."


*(bold and underline is mine)*

above wording is not as clear or logical as we know it should/could be - but I read the above message intent-summary (for us flashoholics) is - no loose cells in checked or carry on baggage.
:thinking:


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## koala (Dec 28, 2007)

*Travelling by air?, Please read, New DOT Lithium rules...*

Thanks to all exploding primary and secondary Lithium batteries...

This one was released on Friday, December 28, 2007 so worth a new post.
http://www.dot.gov/affairs/phmsa1107.htm


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## ltiu (Dec 28, 2007)

" ...*will continue to allow lithium batteries in checked baggage if they are installed in electronic devices*..."

Translation: If you need to bring many batteries, bring many flashlights to carry the batteries


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## Rowrbazzle (Dec 29, 2007)

Nice job folks; CPF comes thru again! 

There is a lot of misinformation out there on this issue. Most sites are simply reporting you can only take two spare batteries. No mention of type or size, just two spares, period! I checked the TSA site, and found it (ahem) somewhat less than clear.  I thought I remembered seeing a thread on this here, and sure enough, you got it figured out. Its good to know I can still take a box of 123s in my carryon. 

Cheers


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## Nicoby (Dec 29, 2007)

*Baggage ban on batteries begins*

For us flashaholics, an interesting read about batteries banned it airplane baggage.
http://tech.yahoo.com/news//ap/20071228/ap_on_hi_te/lithium_batteries_travel


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## Wicho (Dec 29, 2007)

*Re: Baggage ban on batteries begins*

I just read the article - guess I'll just have to carry extra flashlights and use them as "battery carriers".

Do they really think they're going to be able to spot loose batteries in checked baggage? Geez.


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## ixfd64 (Dec 29, 2007)

*Re: Travelling by air?, Please read, New DOT Lithium rules...*

I was going to post this, but you beat me to it. 

I wonder how this will affect hobbies related to flashlights and lasers.


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## KevinL (Dec 29, 2007)

lebox97 said:


> PS: I don't care what any of these "other" websites say - the TSA AND the specific airline makes the rules and enforcement - if you don't like it or agree with it - don't fly - use the train, car, bus, cycle or walk. :mecry:
> rant off.




Lucky those of you who live in a country so big that you never need to leave it. 

I'm still waiting for my car to learn how to sail.


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## MicroE (Dec 29, 2007)

Do you believe that the ban will include AA and AAA Energizer primary lithiums?
How about rechargeable AA's?

I travel a lot and I am curious about how the rules will actually be enforced by the personnel at the x-ray machine.

Two days ago I had an apple (fruit, not ipod or Mac) confiscated by the x-ray operator at the Statue of Liberty.


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## ltiu (Dec 29, 2007)

MicroE said:


> Two days ago I had an apple (fruit, not ipod or Mac) confiscated by the x-ray operator at the Statue of Liberty.



You use an apple to power your flashlights?

Next time, make sure to keep the apple inside the flashlight to keep it from being confiscated.


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## ltiu (Dec 29, 2007)

MicroE said:


> Do you believe that the ban will include AA and AAA Energizer primary lithiums?
> How about rechargeable AA's?



AA and AAA Energizer e2 Lithiums are considered Lithium Metal batteries. 

Read the TSA website about Lithium Metal batteries. Try not to get confused between Lithium Metal and Lithium-Ion rechargeables.


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## lebox97 (Dec 29, 2007)

I would suggest that *ANY* cell specially if it says "*lithium*" is going to get scrutinized. 
Again - if there is going to be a debate at the security line - you'll lose.

*KISS *= keep it simple - make sure all cells are all in a container of some sort (original packing, box, flashlight, "plastic bag", etc) - *not "loose"* - and you should be fine.


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## Phaetos (Dec 29, 2007)

*TSA Limits Lithium Batteries on flights*

Starting Jan 1, 2008. See this link :


*Spare batteries* are the batteries you carry separately from the devices they power. When batteries are installed in a device, they are not considered *spare batteries*.
*You may not* pack a spare lithium battery in your *checked baggage*
*You may* bring spare lithium batteries with you *in carry-on baggage *– see our spare battery tips and how-to sections to find out how to pack spare batteries safely!
The following *quantity limits* apply to *both* your spare and installed batteries. The limits are expressed in grams of “equivalent lithium content.” 8 grams of equivalent lithium content is approximately 100 watt-hours. 25 grams is approximately 300 watt-hours: 
Under the new rules, you can bring batteries with up to 8-gram equivalent lithium content. All lithium ion batteries in cell phones are below 8 gram equivalent lithium content. Nearly all laptop computers also are below this quantity threshold.
You can also bring up to two spare batteries with an aggregate equivalent lithium content of up to 25 grams, in addition to any batteries that fall below the 8-gram threshold. Examples of two types of lithium ion batteries with equivalent lithium content over 8 grams but below 25 are shown below.
For a lithium metal battery, whether installed in a device or carried as a spare, the limit on lithium content is 2 grams of lithium metal per battery.
Almost all consumer-type lithium metal batteries are below 2 grams of lithium metal. But if you are unsure, contact the manufacturer!
 Examples of extended-life rechargeable lithium batteries (more than 8 but not more than 25 grams of equivalent lithium content):


----------



## :)> (Dec 29, 2007)

*Re: TSA Limits Lithium Batteries on flights*

I feel safer already:thinking:


----------



## RA40 (Dec 29, 2007)

http://tech.yahoo.com/news//ap/20071228/ap_on_hi_te/lithium_batteries_travel

This one seems particularly bad. 

New flight regulations come with mass confusion as writers attempt to interpret these new guidelines.  It would be nice that someone in the GOV could have the appropriate data on hand before releasing these restrictions to minimize the confusion for travelers along with the agents who enforce these restrictions.

They list grams but don't have data for gram content in batteries. Thus users and writers wildly guess or try and find spec sheets. They've had time to prepare this but it seems more like a knee jerk reaction. 

As a photographer, I carry sufficient battery packs for my devices. The Yahoo article, if following that, I'd have to find alternate means to get my power sources to me. Forget the flashlights...


----------



## GreySave (Dec 29, 2007)

*Re: TSA Limits Lithium Batteries on flights*

Translation please? 

Although I must admit that the examples listed on the link seem to make things clearer.


----------



## cedarcreek (Dec 29, 2007)

*Re: TSA on lithium batteries*

Has anyone seen actual regulations or other legalese we can read? It's pretty typical B.S. to have an article like this with no link to actual useful information:

http://www.tsa.gov/travelers/airtravel/assistant/batteries.shtm

And they back it up with a "publicly available" link that takes us to the entry page, not to the actual publicly available reports:

http://www.fire.tc.faa.gov/

This really makes me mad. Is there another thread already discussing this?


----------



## ltiu (Dec 29, 2007)

*Re: TSA on lithium batteries*

https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/184424


----------



## SilverFox (Dec 29, 2007)

*Re: TSA on lithium batteries*

Hello Cedarcreek,

Go to the web site listed in your second link. Near the top of the page, click on the "Reports" tab. Now, select Keyword search and type in the word "lithium."

You should end up with two reports, one on Li-Ion cells, and the other on Lithium primary cells.

Tom


----------



## ltiu (Dec 29, 2007)

*Re: TSA on lithium batteries*



SilverFox said:


> You should end up with two reports, one on Li-Ion cells, and the other on Lithium primary cells.



The reports are about how they tested the flammability of lithium cells in a controlled environment/laboratory.

Not the interpretation of regulations.


----------



## frisco (Dec 29, 2007)

*Re: TSA Limits Lithium Batteries on flights*

For this reason, I have been traveling with lights that work well with Alkaline batteries.

Current Airplane Favs:

- Fenix LOP Q2 (single AAA)
- Jetbeam C-LE Ver1&2 (single AA)
- Nitecore Infinity (single AA)

Currently putting together a Shorty 1D Tri Cree Mag running on 4AA Eneloops. 

frisco


----------



## SilverFox (Dec 29, 2007)

*Re: TSA on lithium batteries*

Hello Ltiu,

I believe he was asking both about the interpretation of the ruling and also about the public reports.

I provided him more details about the reports.

Tom


----------



## Paul_in_Maryland (Dec 29, 2007)

*Re: TSA on lithium batteries--new rules January 2008*

I dunno, according to this article, the new rules--which take effect January 1, 2008--are not about pallets: They're about what you and I can stow in our luggage and how we display our carry-on cells to carry-on inspectors. "Up to 2 grams of lithium"? "Up to 8 grams of lithium"? How the heck are we supposed to know how much the lithium in our cell weighs?


----------



## SilverFox (Dec 29, 2007)

*Re: TSA on lithium batteries--new rules January 2008*

Hello Paul,

I believe it is 2 grams of lithium metal content in primary batteries, and 8 grams of equivalent lithium in Li-Ion batteries. Or, perhaps a combination of these depending on how they classify the term "battery."

The Energizer L91 AA cell contains 0.98 grams of lithium, so you would be limited to two of those cells. CR123 cells have just under 0.6 grams of lithium in them, so you can have 3 of those.

To figure the lithium equivalent of a Li-Ion cell, multiply the capacity of the cell X 0.3 X the number of cells.

Tom


----------



## MarNav1 (Dec 29, 2007)

*Re: TSA on lithium batteries--new rules January 2008*



Paul_in_Maryland said:


> I dunno, according to this article, the new rules--which take effect January 1, 2008--are not about pallets: They're about what you and I can stow in our luggage and how we display our carry-on cells to carry-on inspectors. "Up to 2 grams of lithium"? "Up to 8 grams of lithium"? How the heck are we supposed to know how much the lithium in our cell weighs?


You don't need to know Paul. Those folks from TSA (the airport mafia) will let you know. I just wouldn't take my favorite light along because they might want it as well as your batteries. Because after all a "terrorist" might make an explosive battery device. You know how many 747's have gone down from exploding flashlight's right? :duh2:


----------



## ltiu (Dec 29, 2007)

*Re: TSA on lithium batteries--new rules January 2008*



SilverFox said:


> The Energizer L91 AA cell contains 0.98 grams of lithium, so you would be limited to two of those cells. CR123 cells have just under 0.6 grams of lithium in them, so you can have 3 of those.
> 
> To figure the lithium equivalent of a Li-Ion cell, multiply the capacity of the cell X 0.3 X the number of cells.




There is nothing in the regulations that state the "total sum" of "all" the lithium in "all" your spare batteries should be less than 2 grams. It only states that "one" battery can have no more than 2 grams.

Quoted below are the regulations, I read it as, you can bring lithium primaries (lithium metal) with less than 2 grams of lithium metal "per" battery:

--------
For a lithium metal battery, whether installed in a device or carried as a spare, the limit on lithium content is 2 grams of lithium metal per battery.
-------

There is no limit on the "sum total" lithium metal of "all" your lithium primaries, at least, I read the statements:

--------
Under the new rules, you can bring batteries with up to 8-gram equivalent lithium content. All lithium ion batteries in cell phones are below 8 gram equivalent lithium content. Nearly all laptop computers also are below this quantity threshold.
You can also bring up to two spare batteries with an aggregate equivalent lithium content of up to 25 grams, in addition to any batteries that fall below the 8-gram threshold. Examples of two types of lithium ion batteries with equivalent lithium content over 8 grams but below 25 are shown below.
--------

as applying to lithium-ion only. If the statement above do apply to lithium primaries, then nothing in the statement says that the grand total sum of lithium metal in all your lithium "primary" batteries need to be below 8 grams or 25 grams respectively. The 8 grams and 25 gram limits seem to point at lithium-ion only, as indicated in the text.

To know how much lithium, refer to the data sheets:

http://data.energizer.com/PDFs/123.pdf

http://data.energizer.com/PDFs/l91.pdf


----------



## Alan B (Dec 29, 2007)

*Re: TSA on lithium batteries*

There is a better thread already on this topic, with these questions already answered. (now apparently joined..)

https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/184424

-- Alan


----------



## MarNav1 (Dec 29, 2007)

*Re: TSA on lithium batteries*



lebox97 said:


> nothing new there...
> "....the Federal Aviation Administration has studied fire hazards associated with both primary and lithium-ion cells, and their extensive research is publicly available. As a result of this research, *the FAA no longer allows large, palletized shipments of these batteries to be transported as cargo on passenger aircraft.*" (my bold and underline)
> 
> leave your pallets of lithium-ion cells at home - stick to carry on/arm loads, and you'll be fine
> ...


Darnit, I wanted to go to Battery Station and get a pallet of Energizers, guess I better hurry! :laughing:


----------



## fieldops (Dec 29, 2007)

I was picking up a passenger this week and struck up a conversation with an older TSA guy. I asked him what he thought of the new battery rules. He said "whatever the memo says pal". How comforting:shrug:. He then said his personal concern would be if the aircraft was involved in an accident and fire. I told him that in an accident, lithium battery fires are not the kind I worry about :shakehead


----------



## JNewell (Dec 29, 2007)

*Re: TSA Limits Lithium Batteries on flights*



Phaetos said:


> You can also bring up to two spare batteries with an aggregate equivalent lithium content of up to 25 grams, in addition to any batteries that fall below the 8-gram threshold. Examples of two types of lithium ion batteries with equivalent lithium content over 8 grams but below 25 are shown below.
> For a lithium metal battery, whether installed in a device or carried as a spare, the limit on lithium content is 2 grams of lithium metal per battery.
> Almost all consumer-type lithium metal batteries are below 2 grams of lithium metal. But if you are unsure, contact the manufacturer!


 
Too many details - you know what is going to happen...


----------



## lebox97 (Dec 29, 2007)

*Re: TSA on lithium batteries*

I think these are two separate issues/concerns.

1) no lithium palletized shipments/*cargo* on passenger planes (this thread).

2) no *loose* lithium cells on checked/carry on baggage on passenger planes (that thread).
:shrug:



Alan B said:


> There is a better thread already on this topic, with these questions already answered.
> 
> https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/184424
> 
> -- Alan


----------



## koala (Dec 29, 2007)

*Re: TSA Limits Lithium Batteries on flights*

WELL... YOU CAN MAKE YOUR OWN BATTERY LABEL... :shakehead:nana::devil:

unless the XRAY machine can tell the type of chemistry...


----------



## flash_bang (Dec 29, 2007)

*Re: TSA Limits Lithium Batteries on flights*

Ok, this is what I'm thinking of taking on my trip
6PL and G2L
the batteries installed in said lights and an SC1 (6 batteries) and my BC8 case(8 batteries). 
I might bring either two B65's or four 17500 batteries.

Please help me!

Flash


----------



## SilverFox (Dec 29, 2007)

*Re: TSA Limits Lithium Batteries on flights*

Hello Ltiu,

I like your interpretation... and I think it may be correct.

So, it looks like you can carry loaded lights in your checked baggage, but no spare cells for them. You have to carry your spare cells in your carry on. As of now, there does not seem to be any limit to the number of primary cells you can carry, as long as each cell has less than 2 g of lithium metal in it.

You also have to pack the cells in a way that they can not short out.

The same goes for Li-Ion cells and packs. Each of your cells or packs needs to be below 26.7 Amp Hours to qualify for the 8 g equivalent lithium, and you are allowed 2 extra packs or cells that are less than 83.3 Amp Hours. These must also be carried in your carry on baggage, the spare cells and packs that is, installed packs or cells can be put in checked baggage.

How does that sound?

Tom


----------



## Alan B (Dec 29, 2007)

The regulations for palletized Lithium batteries on passenger planes were changed some time ago, if I recall correctly. The new regs are about passenger luggage, as I understand it.

The energy calculations should be in watt-hours. Amp-hours is doesn't translate to lithium equivalence very easily. 

Edit - The transportation industry apparently does it by amp-hours. This means you have to resolve the voltage differential of a battery in converting to amp-hours. They should have used watt-hours. So if your battery is 11V at 5AH this is equivalent to 3 cells in series, so multiply the amp-hours by three, so 15 amp hours. Then multiply by 0.3 to get 4.5 grams equivalent of lithium. 

Here is a nice page with more info on this calculation:

http://www.batteryuniversity.com/print-partone-5.htm

-- Alan


----------



## nein166 (Dec 30, 2007)

Time for surefire to put out a spares carrier with a lamp again, like the Hurricane Carrier


----------



## SilverFox (Dec 30, 2007)

Hello Alan,

I believe the conversion goes like this...

_2. Equivalent Lithium Content (ELC) – means the mass of lithium in the anode of the lithium metal or lithium alloy cell, which for a primary cell is measured when the cell is in an undischarged state and for a rechargeable cell is measured when the cell is fully charged, except that in the case of a lithium ion cell the lithium content is measured in terms of equivalent lithium content, which in grams is calculated to be 0.3 times the rated capacity in ampere-hours._

Taken from this and other documents.

Tom


----------



## Alan B (Dec 30, 2007)

nein166 said:


> Time for surefire to put out a spares carrier with a lamp again, like the Hurricane Carrier


 
That is exactly along the lines I was thinking...

-- Alan


----------



## LuxLuthor (Dec 30, 2007)

This topic is hilarious. Look at how confused some of our more knowledgeable members are at interpreting various guidelines and articles....then imagine the minimum wage - "Put your shoes in the trays" - type TSA wizards trying to figure out Lithium Primary vs. Secondary....let alone how many grams of lithum/cell and/or total grams someone has....then distinguishing whether restricted cells are in a primary device or backups in a "decoy" device. 

Most people on this forum don't know how to figure out how many total amp hours they are carrying, so what do you think the chances are that the illustrious TSA staff will get any of this right? Imagine trying to convince one of them that there is no lithium in a Lithium Ion.

Also think of the logic in allowing different quantities in carry-on vs. checked baggage. Where would you want the exploding cell to be located if you are a passenger !!!


----------



## Patriot (Dec 30, 2007)

> *LuxLuthor*
> This topic is hilarious. Look at how confused some of our more knowledgeable members are at interpreting various guidelines and articles....then imagine the minimum wage - "Put your shoes in the trays" - type TSA wizards trying to figure out Lithium Primary vs. Secondary....let alone how many grams of lithum/cell and/or total grams someone has....then distinguishing whether restricted cells are in a primary device or backups in a "decoy" device.


*LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 

*


> *LuxLuthor
> *Also think of the logic in allowing different quantities in carry-on vs. checked baggage. Where would you want the exploding cell to be located if you are a passenger!!


 Yes, and how about the logic of allowing lithium batteries contained inside of a flashlight but not separately. We at CPF know that when lithiums have blown up, caught fire or whatever, that it's usually happened while inside of a light, not sitting on the counter top or in a pocket. Leave it to our G to come up with this set of regs. After all that's what they're there for. To tax us and create laws to control us.


----------



## Double_A (Dec 30, 2007)

lebox97 said:


> "*Doing something as simple as keeping a spare battery in its original retail packaging or a plastic zip-lock bag will prevent unintentional short-circuiting and fires*," said Krista Edwards, Deputy Administrator of the U.S. Department of Transportation's Pipeline and Hazardous Materials Safety Administration.



Thank you that's all I need to know


----------



## Patriot (Dec 30, 2007)

Double_A said:


> Thank you that's all I need to know



Yeah, as long as it's no more than two L91 AAs or 3 123s.

:shakehead


----------



## ltiu (Dec 30, 2007)

Patriot36 said:


> Yeah, as long as it's no more than two L91 AAs or 3 123s.
> 
> :shakehead



How did you arrive at this conclusion?


----------



## ErickThakrar (Dec 30, 2007)

this topic would have been a lot less confusing if two things had happened. 
1: People actually read the linked articles. 
2: If the moderators hadn't combined several threads, about different topics, seemingly at random. There is no indicator where one thread started or where they were merged. Makes the whole thing seem extremely random.


----------



## Size15's (Dec 30, 2007)

http://safetravel.dot.gov/whats_new_batteries.html
*
Effective January 1, 2008:*
Relates to consumer electronic devices (watches, calculating machines, cameras, cellular phones, lap-top computers, camcorders, etc.) containing lithium or lithium ion cells or batteries when carried by passengers or crew member for personal use.
Each spare battery must be individually protected so as to prevent short circuits and carried in carry-on baggage only.

The quantity limits apply to _both_ your spare and installed batteries.

*You may not pack spare lithium batteries in your checked baggage*
(It is strongly advised not to pack devices with installed lithium batteries in your checked baggage).
*
Primary Lithium Batteries:*
For primary lithium metal batteries (*CR123A, CR2, LiAA* etc), whether installed in a device or carried as spares, *the limit on lithium content is 2 grams of lithium metal per battery*.

*One CR123A battery is nominally less than 0.6 grams of lithium metal.*
Sanyo lists 0.57 grams of lithium in a CR123 cell
Energizer lists 0.55 grams of lithium in a EL123A cell

*Conclusion: These rules specify no limit on the number of CR123A or similar primary lithium batteries allowed, as long as they are safely stored and devices containing them are safely deactivated. Existing rules strongly indicate that there is a limit of up to 24 (twenty-four) primary lithium batteries.*

*Rechargeable Lithium Batteries:*
Under the new rules, you can bring [rechargeable] lithium batteries with up to a *total of 8 grams equivalent lithium content* that are installed in devices.

Equivalent Lithium Content [for rechargeable lithium batteries] is measured as 0.3 times the rated capacity (ampere hour (Ah)) of the cell in ampere-hours, with the results expressed in grams.
The lithium-equivalent content of the battery equals the sum of the grams of lithium-equivalent content contained in the component cells of the battery [pack].

(Example: a 18650 Li-Ion cell with 1.8 Ah of rated capacity would contain 0.54 grams of lithium (1.8 x 0.3) and 6 of these cells in a pack would equal 3.24 grams)

8 grams of equivalent lithium content is approximately 100 Wh (Watt-hours).
25 grams is approximately 300 Wh

To allow for the heavy-duty (Pro?) users who need to carry large Li-Ion battery packs (for pro equipment etc), You can _also_ bring *up to two spare rechargeable lithium batteries* with an aggregate equivalent lithium content of up to 25 grams, _in addition to any batteries that fall below the 8-gram threshold_. For example a 130 Wh 'universal' Li-Ion laptop battery pack, and a 160 Wh battery for a video camera (etc) (Totalling less than 300 Wh; less than 25 grams)

*Conclusion:
It's all a bit complicated when it comes to rechargeable lithium batteries. What the TSA tells you to do at the security check point goes, unless you have time to start an argument I guess.*


----------



## SilverFox (Dec 30, 2007)

Hello Al,

It appears that this recent ruling is mostly addressing Li-Ion secondary cells. There are previous rulings on primary cells.

I am not sure I agree with your conclusion that there is no limit on the number of primary cells that you can take in carry on baggage.

According to this document, packages containing more than 24 primary lithium cells are required to have special labeling and paperwork. 

I think I can make a pretty strong argument that you are only allowed to carry up to 24 spare cells.

Tom


----------



## LuxLuthor (Dec 30, 2007)

SilverFox said:


> Hello Al,
> 
> It appears that this recent ruling is mostly addressing Li-Ion secondary cells. There are previous rulings on primary cells.
> 
> ...



Hopefully the TSA will have Barney Fife, Gomer Pyle, The Rain Man, and Deputy Dog standing by to make sure they get this right at the gate.


----------



## JNewell (Dec 30, 2007)

Al, ery helpcful - but my experiences suggest that the implementation may boil down to: "Lithium batteries? Can't bring those on board" at a large number of US airports...I hope I am wrong.


----------



## lebox97 (Dec 30, 2007)

not "loose" ones anyway...




JNewell said:


> Al, ery helpcful - but my experiences suggest that the implementation may boil down to: "Lithium batteries? Can't bring those on board" at a large number of US airports...I hope I am wrong.


----------



## Size15's (Dec 30, 2007)

Certainly what the TSA says goes at each check point you pass through, unless you have time to get into an argument with them.
A precautionary approach, at least until the practical implementation of the new rules can be established and reported here, would be to minimise the number of lithium batteries carried regardless of type, and be prepared to sacrifice any lithium batteries as required by TSA security forces if you're in a hurry.
This is in addition to ensuring that any spares are safely packaged/stored and that all devices are sufficiently disabled/deactivated.


----------



## ltiu (Dec 30, 2007)

JNewell said:


> Al, ery helpcful - but my experiences suggest that the implementation may boil down to: "Lithium batteries? Can't bring those on board" at a large number of US airports...I hope I am wrong.



99% of cell phones use Li-on. 99% of laptops use Li-on. A large majority of cameras use lithium batteries of some sort. That would mean everyone drop your cell phone and laptop and camera batteries at the check point. Do you really think this will happen?

How about hearing aids and heart pacemakers? A lot of electro-medical treatments are sometimes inside the human body. These use lithium batteries too! Wait, I got an idea. If I swallow my spare lithium batteries, then I can take them with me


----------



## Size15's (Dec 30, 2007)

ltiu said:


> Wait, I got an idea. If I swallow my spare lithium batteries, then I can take them with me


Make sure you only swallow lithium batteries because you could end up with Voltaic Piles. Of course CR123A batteries are spiral-wound so you'd breeze past the TSA with a spring in your step...


----------



## shadowjk (Dec 30, 2007)

ltiu said:


> 99% of cell phones use Li-on. 99% of laptops use Li-on. A large majority of cameras use lithium batteries of some sort. That would mean everyone drop your cell phone and laptop and camera batteries at the check point. Do you really think this will happen?
> 
> How about hearing aids and heart pacemakers? A lot of electro-medical treatments are sometimes inside the human body. These use lithium batteries too!



It wont affect 99% of people traveling, because only really huge batteries are over the limit, and hardly anyone travel with spare batteries. Battery inside pacemaker probably itself weighs less than 2g, and it's of course not made out of 100% lithium anyway.

The only people it really matters to is freaks that travel with huge amount of batteries/spares 

If you must travel with lots of extra power, it might be an idea to only bring one or two "universal" batteries with you, and charge your devices from those. Or do like that one guy that built himself a laptop battery out of alkaline D cells to be able to watch DVD on flight from australia to the US...


----------



## JNewell (Dec 31, 2007)

ltiu said:


> Do you really think this will happen?


 
For loose batteries (not installed in a device), yes, I think this is a risk. As Al says, we will have to see what the TSA really does with this.


----------



## CM (Dec 31, 2007)

Size15's said:


> ...unless you have time to get into an argument with them...



I would not recommend getting into an argument with TSA Nazi's. Two neighbors of mine who travel frequently "gently" challenged them and one got thrown into jail, the other had his wife harassed with derogatory comments. There's no winning against these a******s. Best to say "yes sir, I will comply with thee..." and move on.


----------



## lewong (Dec 31, 2007)

*New FAA rules limit batteries in checked and carry-on baggage*

Because everybody uses these _"Lithium-Ion_" and "_Lithium-Metal_" batteries, I thought I post a link to this story on the new US FAA rules limiting batteries carried in checked luggage at Safetravel.dot.gov.

I first saw the story here at Ars Technica.

Limits seemed to be based on "_aggregate equivalent Lithium content_".


----------



## Alan B (Dec 31, 2007)

Interesting that none of the "new" web pages mention the "old" limit on the number of lithium-metal cells in a "package". Judging by that they may not be focussing on that rule, or it may not apply to luggage.

-- Alan


----------



## cobra-ak (Dec 31, 2007)

It looks like they relaxed the ruling from a couple of days ago, even I was worried.....John Q. Public digital camera 2 spare Lions, video camera 2 spare Lions, Laptop 1 installed, 1 spare Lion, whew that screening line would back into the garage parking.


----------



## robo21 (Jan 3, 2008)

*LITHIUM BATTERIES BANNED NEW LAW - A Good Reason to Take Extra Flashlights*

There is a new International and US Law we need to be aware of! 

Here's the article:

Starting Jan. 1, airline passengers will no longer be allowed to pack loose lithium batteries in checked luggage, the U.S. Transportation Department's Pipeline and Hazardous Materials Safety Administration warned late last week. 


Instead, passengers will be required to take loose batteries with them in carry-on baggage, packed in plastic bags. The new regulation, which will go into effect in order to lessen the risk of lithium battery fires, won't apply to lithium batteries that are already installed in electronic devices, such as laptops, cell phones, and cameras. Those can be checked in. 

*Additionally, only two spare rechargeable lithium batteries will be allowed on airplanes per passenger in carry-on bags.* 

The international rule will become U.S. law on Tuesday. 
"Doing something as simple as keeping a spare battery in its original retail packaging or a plastic zip-lock bag will prevent unintentional short-circuiting and fires," said Krista Edwards, deputy administrator of the PHMSA, in a statement. 

The administration is treating lithium batteries as hazardous materials since they're known for overheating and catching fire in some conditions. Tests conducted by the Federal Aviation Administration show that aircraft cargo fire suppression systems on airplanes are incapable of containing fires caused by nonrechargeable lithium batteries packaged in bulk quantities. 

A small fire source is enough to ignite a lithium battery. The outer plastic coating can melt easily and fuse neighboring batteries together to increase the intensity of the fire, according to a June 2004 report published by the Office of Aviation Research. 

In a situation where a lithium battery ignites in carry-on baggage, flight crews can better monitor the fire since they have access to fire extinguishers.

There have been several instances in the past year that have raised red flags about lithium batteries. 
In October, a resident of Douglasville, Ga., claimed that his an Apple Ipod Nano caught fire in his pocket. The iPod nano uses a lithium ion battery, which packs higher power density than a nickel-based battery. 
Toshiba in June reported that a Sony lithium battery was responsible for a notebook computer bursting into flames. Since August 2006, Apple, Dell, Lenovo, and Toshiba have recalled lithium batteries used in notebook computers manufactured by Sony.


----------



## Lightguy27 (Jan 3, 2008)

*Re: LITHIUM BATTERIES BANNED NEW LAW - A Good Reason to Take Extra Flashlights*

This has been disscussed to death in the Flashlight Electronics-Batteries Included section where this no doubt will be moved to. It's good in a way though, because at least some more people might see it.

-Evan


----------



## Sgt. LED (Jan 3, 2008)

*Re: LITHIUM BATTERIES BANNED NEW LAW - A Good Reason to Take Extra Flashlights*

Take along an M6 for a spares carrier!


----------



## FrogmanM (Jan 3, 2008)

*Re: LITHIUM BATTERIES BANNED NEW LAW - A Good Reason to Take Extra Flashlights*

so...does this mean I just wrap my SC3 carrier in a plastic bag?


----------



## tsask (Jan 3, 2008)

*Re: LITHIUM BATTERIES BANNED NEW LAW - A Good Reason to Take Extra Flashlights*

yes this has been discussed BUT now the law has CHANGED again.

batteries can now not be checked, remember for the past couple years SF CR123 batteries could not be shipped by air.

now only a couple may be checked in carry on in a plastic bag.

I have been EDCing my INova X5 w/ 2 CR123 primaries as a sort of battery carrier, spares for my Fenix Q5 P1.
so if i understand now only 2 cells (Lithium) are permitted. as "loose in bag".

I can't help but think that going through the indignation of a TSA interrogation search explaining WHY you're wearing 3-4 lights on your belt would make any trip undesirable.


----------



## tsask (Jan 3, 2008)

*Re: LITHIUM BATTERIES BANNED NEW LAW - A Good Reason to Take Extra Flashlights*



Sgt. LED said:


> Take along an M6 for a spares carrier!


sure LOL LOL but with that tactical strike bezel ??


----------



## SilverFox (Jan 3, 2008)

At the top of this section of the forum, there is a sticky "If you plan to fly with a flashlight... Read this."

I contacted the TSA and got some information on flying with flashlights. 

We, as a group, need to contact the TSA and get them to understand that we travel with flashlights and expect to carry spare cells with us. As it stands right now, you are only allowed 2 cells (or batteries) in only your carry on baggage, when using CR123 or L91 cells.

Read the post, contact TSA and let's see if we can make traveling with flashlights easier.

Thanks.

Tom


----------



## greenLED (Jan 3, 2008)

Here's the linky to that thread:
https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/185076

Thanks for getting the ball rolling on this, SilverFox.


----------



## senna94 (Jan 3, 2008)

Just ran across this on Yahoo. 
http://tech.yahoo.com/blogs/null/62899


----------



## SilverFox (Jan 3, 2008)

Hello Senna94,

Good article, unfortunately, a lot of our flashlights use lithium metal CR123 and L91 cells. They fall in the "more stringent" class.

Tom


----------



## ltiu (Jan 3, 2008)

SilverFox said:


> As it stands right now, you are only allowed 2 cells (or batteries) in only your carry on baggage, when using CR123 or L91 cells.


 
Hi SilverFox,

Is this 2 battery limit "your" interpretation of the rules or did TSA tell you?


----------



## NeonJohn (Jan 3, 2008)

ErickThakrar said:


> One, this is obviously NOT referring to carrying pallets of batteries.
> Two, this is also not referring to that previous thread.
> 
> And thirdly, from the horses mouth: http://safetravel.dot.gov/whats_new_batteries.html
> ...



When this first came up I spent quite a bit of time researching the actual language and not what websites said. Pay attention to the language. It doesn't say "grams of lithium". It says "grams equivalent of lithium". Somewhere, perhaps the Federal Register, I found the definition. It is a formula based on capacity. I think it is Grams-equivalent = 0.6*AH capacity on a per cell basis. Fuzzy memory so don't take that to the bank.

Until this stupidity gets reversed, it seems to me that a couple of solutions present themselves.

One, put your CR123 cells in a 6 cell carrier and heat shrink it, making it appear to be a single battery. Two, open an old laptop battery, put your cells inside, reclose the battery and carry it as a spare for your laptop. My Dell's battery case would hold probably a dozen batteries.

I see a business opportunity here. Many of my NiMH OEM cells have simple heat shrink on the outside with the battery type and capacity printed with an ink jet. The market opportunity is to sell sticks of un-shrunk heat shrink pre-printed with "NiMH" and a reasonable looking capacity.

John


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## SilverFox (Jan 3, 2008)

Hello Ltiu,

The 2 battery (cell) limit came from the TSA contact after talking it over with the supervisor.

Tom


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## SilverFox (Jan 3, 2008)

Hello John,

There are two different metrics. One is gram equivalent lithium, and it is used with rechargeable Li-Ion batteries and cells. The other is actual lithium content in primary lithium metal batteries and cells.

A CR123 cell has just under 0.6 grams of lithium in it. You are allowed a battery (made of of several cells) as long as the total lithium content is below 2 grams. If you battery pack contains more than 2 grams, it is not allowed. This works out to 3 cells.

It gets worse for the AA Energizer L91 cells. They contain around 0.98 grams of lithium in each cell. 

Now, Li-Ion cells and batteries go by an equivalent amount of Lithium. The equivalent is determined by taking the capacity of the cell in Amp Hours, multiplying it by 0.3, then multiplying that by the number of cells in the battery pack.

I fly with lots of flashlights and spare batteries. My concern is that if the official help people and supervisors can't figure out what to do with primary cells, what can I expect from the TSA person at the airport.

Send an email or call the TSA at the number listed in the sticky and let's get this resolved.

Tom


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## ltiu (Jan 3, 2008)

SilverFox said:


> Hello Ltiu,
> 
> The 2 battery (cell) limit came from the TSA contact after talking it over with the supervisor.
> 
> Tom



Hi Tom,

Thanks for talking to the TSA for us.

Is this two battery limit for lithium-ion or lithium primaries?


----------



## SilverFox (Jan 3, 2008)

Hello Ltiu,

Yes...

Actually, it appears that you can have 4 Li-Ion batteries, but I am not sure how it all works out. There are several possible combinations. 2 primary cells and 2 large Li-Ion packs, 2 small Li-Ion packs and 2 large Li-Ion packs, or 4 Li-Ion packs.

Please note that packs = 1 or more cells.

Tom


----------



## MarNav1 (Jan 3, 2008)

Nose hairs are next guys, or ear wax. Maybe the style of zipper on your bags or the number of fillings in your teeth. The point is TSA DOESN'T CARE whether you figure it out. They just want all the folks to say "Yes sir" when we walk through their area, bottom line. I know, save it for the underground but facts are facts. I'd like to amend your sigline a little Silverfox, no slam on you sir. Most batteries don't die- they are confiscated by the TSA!


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## ltiu (Jan 3, 2008)

SilverFox said:


> Hello Ltiu,
> 
> Yes...
> 
> ...



Thanks Tom for sharing this information.

I plan on flying soon and I will be taking with me 4 L91s in their original Energizer packaging plus 4 SF123A also in their original packaging. In addition to whatever is in my flashlights at that time. I am prepared to toss these (batteries only) into the garbage bin if the TSA says so. I will not even hesitate.

I wonder how they can tell is a battery is lithium or not?

I also plan on bringing 8 NiMH Eneloops with me. I sure hope they won't have me toss those.


----------



## SilverFox (Jan 3, 2008)

Hello Ltiu,

Make sure you send an email or call the TSA.

There are no restrictions on NiMh cells, as far as I know.

The L91 cells have just under 1 gram of lithium each. There may be a problem with them, but I am now hearing that if the cells are in factory packaging, they may be OK to take. 

Tom


----------



## greenLED (Jan 3, 2008)

SilverFox said:


> Make sure you send an email or call the TSA.


Just did, and I encourage others to do so as well. I used the text in SilverFox's recent sticky posts (up top on this section), and added some comments here and there about being able to carry enough spare batts for my larger flashlights and how easy it is to find suitable spare carriers for transporting them safely (a la SF spare carriers).


----------



## ltiu (Jan 3, 2008)

Just emailed:

-----------------

Dear TSA, 

Regarding the new battery regulations: 

http://www.tsa.gov/travelers/airtravel/assistant/batteries.shtm 

http://safetravel.dot.gov/whats_new_batteries.html 


When I travel, I carry flashlights with me in my carry-on baggage. 

My flashlights use "Lithium metal" batteries such as the Energizer EL123: 

http://data.energizer.com/PDFs/123.pdf 

and the Energizer L91: 

http://data.energizer.com/PDFs/l91.pdf 

Both have less than the 2 grams of Lithium (in each battery) and below 
the 2 gram limit as indicated in the new regulations. 


My question: 

1) How many spare “flashlight batteries” (Lithium metal batteries) are 
allowed in my carry-on baggage? Is there a maximum limit per passenger? 

2) If my spare Lithium metal batteries are still in their original 
factory/store packaging (still in their original cardboard/plastic 
bubble wrap), can I put these in my checked-in baggage? 


Thank you for your help in clarifying this new ruling. 

Sincerely

-----------------


Hopefully they will respond and clarify soon.


----------



## LuxLuthor (Jan 3, 2008)

This relates to SilverFox's pinned announcement which I just read on top of this section, asking all of us to contact TSA which I just read.

*I'll contact TSA as Tom noted. Can't hurt.*

I wonder if some that have Surefire and other light vendor contacts, who in turn provide lights to U.S. Govt (military, border control, coast guard) can use those contacts to get the message out.

I'm guessing they will have a hard time justifying granting exceptions for flashlight Lithium cells, but restricting them for any other uses.


----------



## Dances with Flashlight (Jan 3, 2008)

ltiu said:


> Hopefully they will respond and clarify soon.


 
Another thank you for your work and for sharing this with all of us.


----------



## RA40 (Jan 4, 2008)

Thanks for the sticky SilverFox. 

Hopefully they get this all straightened out before my trip. The frustration reading the new ruling is  

I sent an e-mail through and will follow it up with a call.


----------



## FrogmanM (Jan 4, 2008)

I also just sent TSA a SilverFox email, hope it helps. I have just finished my vacation in hawaii and plan on flying tomorrow, things will be interesting, I'll post how my TSA experience goes.:shakehead

Mayo

PS flying with:
A2, Raw NS, NovaTac 120T, full SC3 in my carry on(all in plastic bag), and my LunaSol27 clipped to my waistband.

Mayo


----------



## lebox97 (Jan 4, 2008)

thanks for your great efforts Tom.

I would caution though that your response came from one individual supervisor or office - and I'll wager that if you call again and reach someone else - you'll get a different answer, and call a third time get yet another.

Add to this that the TSA personnel working the security checkpoints and their supervisor will have yet again a different interpretation, with each airport TSA group having their own interpretation

All we can hope for is a simpler clarification from Mr Hawley (TSA Administrator) or others of authority.

The TSA website main page - New FAA Regulation on Spare Lithium Batteries (DOT.gov) December 28, 2007
What is confusing me is this announcement content has not changed yet our intepretations have? 
The opening paragraph is simple enough to me...
"Passengers will no longer be able to pack loose lithium batteries in checked luggage beginning January 1, 2008 once new federal safety rules take effect. The new regulation, designed to reduce the risk of lithium battery fires, will continue to allow lithium batteries in checked baggage if they are installed in electronic devices, or in carry-on baggage if stored in plastic bags."
EDIT" The January 1, 2008 announcement buried in website - http://www.tsa.gov/travelers/airtravel/assistant/batteries.shtm
just adds to the confusion?

If the battery label says "Lithium", and it's "loose" - expect to be challenged.
But know this after all this research and efforts - *it is the TSA AIRPORT personnel that work the checkpoints at that specific airport who ultimately decide what you will or will not carry onto the plane.*




SilverFox said:


> Hello Ltiu,
> 
> The 2 battery (cell) limit came from the TSA contact after talking it over with the supervisor.
> 
> Tom


----------



## Paul_in_Maryland (Jan 4, 2008)

I had stopped f9llowing this thread because the rules had became difficult to follow; I felt that what was needed (from TSA) was a graphical poster illustrating what was permitted and what was banned. Then I read this on dpreview; if it's accurate, t's the clearest summary I've seen:

The US Department of Transportation has announced new safety rules relating to the storage of rechargeable Lithium batteries when flying to, from and within the USA. The new restrictions, effective from January 1st 2008, dictate that _loose_ Lithium cells may not be packed in checked baggage under any circumstances - batteries installed in equipment are unaffected. Carry-on baggage may contain up to two loose batteries but only if there is no possibility of short-circuit, containing them individually within simple plastic bags or their original packaging is sufficient to prevent this and will satisfy inspectors.​


----------



## SilverFox (Jan 4, 2008)

Hello Tod,

I have not tried calling back again, that would be interesting...

It is scary that the actual TSA screener is the final word. Change and education has to come from the top. That is why it is important to contact them and move them "out of the dark."

We need a better definition of what "loose" means. I am hearing scattered reports that if the batteries are in the manufacturers blister packs, they are OK and not covered under this ruling. Confusion, confusion, confusion...

Tom


----------



## ltiu (Jan 4, 2008)

Reading the memo:

http://safetravel.dot.gov/whats_new_batteries.html

The 2 battery limit applies only to lithium-ion rechargeable batteries that have more than 8 grams of lithium content. But it seems to me most people (in CPF) who read through the memo casually all concluded that the 2 battery limit applies to all lithium batteries regardless of type and lithium content.

So assuming the worst, TSA personnel may also come to the same conclusion.


----------



## SilverFox (Jan 4, 2008)

Hello Ltiu,

That's how I read it too. I was very surprised to have the TSA people tell me something different.

Tom


----------



## Size15's (Jan 4, 2008)

The point is whether each TSA agent is going to interpret the rules differently and require the far more stringent limit of two CR123A's.

I suspect that for simple one and two cell flashlights they will not even think, to question the battery type, perhaps only require the flashlight is activated to demonstrate that it is actually a flashlight.


----------



## greenLED (Jan 4, 2008)

SilverFox said:


> We need a better definition of what "loose" means. I am hearing scattered reports that if the batteries are in the manufacturers blister packs, they are OK and not covered under this ruling.



Absolutely. I can't see how a blister pack offers any serious level of protection compared to a SF spares carrier, or any of the "usual" spares carriers we typically use.

No response to my e-mail (not that I'm expecting one).


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## chuck4570 (Jan 4, 2008)

*Great reason to get a Surefire G2*

Now with the new TSA rules change for air travel with lithium batteries, this is a great reason, or excuse to get 1 or more Surefire G2's. Since you can only carry 2 spare batteries now and they have to be in their orininal packages, and in seperate plastic bags, you can use the G2's as spare carriers, and backup lighys at the same time. Batteries in devices are OK to have, this way you don't have to buy or find expensive batteries at your destination.

Chuck


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## Illumination (Jan 4, 2008)

*Re: Great reason to get a Surefire G2*

ha; good idea.

i wasn't aware of the new rules - especially that the lights have to be in their original case (does that mean shrinkwrapped?)


----------



## ltiu (Jan 4, 2008)

*Re: Great reason to get a Surefire G2*



Illumination said:


> i wasn't aware of the new rules - especially that the lights have to be in their original case (does that mean shrinkwrapped?)



Hey dude!

Don't confuse the "batteries" with the "lights". The flashlights do not need to be in their original packaging!

You guys are not helping.


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## LuxLuthor (Jan 4, 2008)

*Re: Great reason to get a Surefire G2*



ltiu said:


> Hey dude!
> 
> Don't confuse the "batteries" with the "lights". The flashlights do not need to be in their original packaging!
> 
> You guys are not helping.



Yet it is representative of how this whole thing will play out in reality. Personally, I think their adding information about the number of grams put the rational understanding & consistent administration of any policy into a state of chaos. 

Besides some uber-battery geeks & drug lords, who do you think is going to calculate how many grams of lithium something has? Few TSA front line employees will have any awareness of any Lithium batteries besides Laptops and cell phones....let alone primary vs. secondary Lithium cells....or the nuances of protected/unprotected Li-Ion, LiPo, Saphion, Emoli.

I guarantee eventually that there will be some TSA dude who will be confiscating someone's Lithium Bipolar medication, or someone not bringing theirs because they heard that "Lithiums are banned." 

Until this gets sorted out, I think you either need to leave your lithium battery items home, FedEx to destination, be prepared to dump them on command of TSA, or not fly. I cannot imagine a scenario where a lithium powered light is critical. In all cases, there are other types of lights that can be used. That's not true with laptops and cell phones.


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## SilverFox (Jan 4, 2008)

*Re: Great reason to get a Surefire G2*

Hello LuxLuthor,



LuxLuthor said:


> I cannot imagine a scenario where a lithium powered light is critical...



:devil: Come on now... Have you gone over to the dark side? :devil:

Of course, all of our Lithium lights are critical... 

I am afraid that they may ban all lithium power flashlights on flights, but I am not sure how they will figure out if a light takes lithium cells or not without opening the light and examining the batteries.

Tom


----------



## Art Vandelay (Jan 5, 2008)

The news stories I've read about exploding flashlights at airports have been flashlights with alkaline batteries. 

I think a reasonable limit is fine. I just wish they would say what the limits are in a way that is easy for everyone (including TSA employees) to understand. Some examples of what is allowed and not allowed might help.


----------



## FrogmanM (Jan 5, 2008)

No problems from TSA today, just a look at my McGizmo and my Glo-Toob attached to my carryon bag.
I hope they come up with some clear rules on the Lithium batteries soon

Mayo


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## SilverFox (Jan 5, 2008)

Hello Mayo,

Were you carrying any spare cells?

Tom


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## Saiga (Jan 5, 2008)

I don't understand why this is generating so much concern. Who cares !!!!! Tape two 123's together and stick them in the pocket of some shorts in your carry-on,TSA will never even notice them, even if they look in your bag ( trust me, i've flown in and out of the country 2-4 times a year for the past 15 years.) Unless you're relocating to Madagscar or someplace, this should be WAY more battery power than you'll ever need for some buisness/vacation trip. This is a non-issue.


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## SilverFox (Jan 5, 2008)

Hello Saiga,

Some of us seem to carry a few more spares than others...

When I travel, I carry a spare battery for my computer, a spare battery for my camera, a spare lithium metal coin cell for my weather station, 4 spare CR123 cells for my flashlights, and a couple of extra lithium metal coin cells for my emergency headlamp.

That works out to 9 spares. If I am only allowed 2, I have a problem...

Tom


----------



## Art Vandelay (Jan 5, 2008)

ltiu said:


> Reading the memo:
> 
> http://safetravel.dot.gov/whats_new_batteries.html
> 
> ...



Based on that link, wouldn't SilverFox be able to carry all his spares if he put two of his four 123s in a spare flashlight like a Fenix P2D, and put the two spare coin batteries in something like a Photon Freedom? The P2D is not much bigger or heavier than two cells because they require loose spare cells to be in the original packaging and safely stored. Maybe I read that article wrong, but that's how I understood it.


----------



## SilverFox (Jan 5, 2008)

Hello Art,

That is exactly what I was considering. If we don't get a clarification on what the rules mean, I plan just to carry more lights. It's a great way to carry spares.

Tom


----------



## Darkpower (Jan 5, 2008)

SilverFox said:


> Hello Art,
> 
> That is exactly what I was considering. If we don't get a clarification on what the rules mean, I plan just to carry more lights. It's a great way to carry spares.
> 
> Tom


Tom I really respect your opinion on just about everything you have posted in this forum, but be cautious. They may find it suspicious that some fellow has three or four flashlights in his carry-on...be wary that they could make you leave one or more of your favorite lights behind at the security check point, or they could question you, causing you to miss a connection. In your discussion with them, they already asked you with what appears to be disdain for carrying a flashlight as "why you need a flashlight on an airplane?". Clearly the TSA does not have a clue to the kinds of hobbies or needs of the flying public.

The TSA has become a bureaucratic nightmare with a no-holds barred policy. I am the type not to make a fuss or I might find myself on some “no-fly” list in the future. If taking something like many lithium cells was important to me I might just FEDEX a package a day or two in advance to my destination, which is what I used to do when I traveled with prototype wire-wrap circuits in my engineering days because they looked so much like homemade bombs. Most hotels will hold a parcel for guest. Avoiding suspicion or having to do a song and dance at the security checkpoint to me is more prudent then trying to stir up dust or to try to challenge a policy. 

I read your notice post about contacting the TSA and I for one believe this is a bigger problem then what we can accomplish as a forum community. It’s the flashlight and battery manufacturers that need to lobby the TSA for clarification and or exemptions. Our best bet is to contact our elected officials like Senators and Congressmen to address the problem, as well as to get the flashlight makers like Surefire and the battery manufacturers to lobby for an exemption or revocation. The TSA is not what I would call a sympathetic ear to the needs of a flashlight enthusiast. For crying out loud they contact search little old ladies in wheel chairs as well as toddlers, and force people to throw out shampoo if the liquid quantity exceeds a certain volume.


----------



## SilverFox (Jan 5, 2008)

Hello Darkpower,

Yes, I will have to remember to "mind my manners..."

I seem to have a way about me that gets me into some unusual situations. Recently, I was doing some work on a Naval Air Base. To gain access to the base, my vehicle and equipment was searched. I have some equipment that looks just like timing devices that could be used for explosives.

Imagine my surprise when this armed guard comments to me "Hmm, this looks like it could be a bomb."

I really didn't know what to say in response. 

He took a long look at me and my identification and asked me "are you a terrorist?" 

I pictured myself being carried off to the brig, but then they just told me to go on into the base and that everything was OK.

Come to find out, they were having a training that day. Some people were playing "terrorist" and testing their security procedures. All I can say is that it really had me going for awhile. 

Having gone through that, I feel better prepared to make it through a TSA screening... 

Tom


----------



## Rzr800 (Jan 5, 2008)

Again, the TSA is spending far to much time, effort and money catering to some kind of non-existant 'right' for the American people or any others to carry _anything_ on passenger flights that impedes the ability of any passenger to get there safely or our government personnel to come up with any rule *that they darn well please* in regards to the entire trip.

We have truly become a nation of whining babies in relation to our flight expectations and it is frankly _ironic_ that the very national security issue that catapulted us all into this mess over 6 years ago...is nothing but a "well by _gosh_ I better be able to carry this!" whinefest _day after day_ in 2008.(involving nothing but a bunch of people who can damn well largely afford to buy whatever in the heck else that they may possibly need when they get there or who are damn well smart enough to make arrangements before they arrive...in the first place).

Put everybody on the darn plane with what they have on their backs and hold their luggage if they're stupid enough to not follow the rules set forth before they pack the darn bag. And if the rules don't seem "clear enough" for your 'batteries' for pete's sakes...simply don't bring them.


----------



## Size15's (Jan 5, 2008)

I never seem to get stopped and searched. Disappointing but as I've never won the lottery either I must be just as unlucky with the TSA's random screening as well.
This one time I was really, really early for a flight and asked the TSA whether they were gonna search my carry-on. The TSA asked 'Why, does it need searching?' and I replied 'Well, my flight isn't for eight hours and it's really quiet here so...'
He told me he wasn't going to search my bag and to go buy a book or something.


----------



## Darkpower (Jan 5, 2008)

SilverFox said:


> Having gone through that, I feel better prepared to make it through a TSA screening...
> 
> Tom


 
 Just don't find yourself at the airport TSA checkpoint having to decide "which" light you'll have to leave behind. The TSA has collected a lovely trove of fine Leatherman tools, CRKT pocket knives, Kershaw Knives and what-nots from people who were forced to give them up before boarding...not to mention tanker loads of shampoo, toothpaste, skin lotions and other prohibited liquids... enough to bathe and cleanse every radical Detainee in Gitmo for the next twenty years.


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## Size15's (Jan 5, 2008)

There are consumer electronics stores inside the 'secured zone' at most airports so in the event that you're required to leave some CR123A batteries behind you can always buy some new ones a few minutes later.


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## FrogmanM (Jan 5, 2008)

SilverFox said:


> Hello Mayo,
> 
> Were you carrying any spare cells?
> 
> Tom


 
If you mean, "loosely inside my carryon" then no, however I did have a fully loaded SureFire SC3 Battery Carrier(which was in a ziplock bag with a charger). The X-ray person had no problem checking my bag, however when I was getting my pocketable items back, one TSA agent asked to see my McGizmo, then asked, "what is the purpose of having this on your backpack?" (refering to my Glo-Toob Lithium,which was attached to one of the zipper pulls) I simply stated that it was a flashlight, not wanting to get technical and say strobe or anything. IDK if this makes a difference, but I flew from Lihue, kauai to Oahu, so I never had to deal with a long TSA security checkpoint as I would have in say LAX or John Wayne Airport.
I have yet to recieve a reply to my email sent. And from my recent encounter, it seems that they will question any little thing that is visible on you. Maybe SC3's don't look like an excess amount of Lithium batteries when viewed from an X-ray Machine?

Mayo


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## frisco (Jan 5, 2008)

Size15's said:


> There are consumer electronics stores inside the 'secured zone' at most airports so in the event that you're required to leave some CR123A batteries behind you can always buy some new ones a few minutes later.



True....... But at $12.00 each? (airport price!)

I'm gonna carry AA lights for Airline travel.

frisco


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## Size15's (Jan 5, 2008)

frisco said:


> True....... But at $12.00 each? (airport price!)
> frisco


It'd be good to get some prices confirmed by flyers


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## Art Vandelay (Jan 6, 2008)

I don't have trouble with the TSA when I fly. I don't think U.S. airport security is overboard. The TSA helps prevent actual danger and reduce the much more common fear of danger.

About 10 years ago I was down in South America. They had very tight airport security. I don't know if they had received a threat or what, but on one flight they unpacked and repacked the carry on, and checked luggage. They also had a male Police Officer pat down the male passengers, and a female pat down the female passengers.

If that what it takes to be safe, I'm for it. I think it all depends on what the actual danger is. In the U.S., we are in more danger driving in cars than flying in planes.


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## radellaf (Jan 6, 2008)

It's not a "right to bring batteries" at issue.

It's
A: An expectation that if there are to be rules to follow, they need to be crystal clear.

and

B: A disagreement with the idea that anything that _could_ be dangerous in some convoluted logic's way, should be treated _as_ dangerous and banned.

I don't get why people/gov't are so twitchy about airplanes.


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## Rzr800 (Jan 6, 2008)

radellaf said:


> *It's not a "right to bring batteries" at issue.*
> 
> *It's*
> *A: An expectation that if there are to be rules to follow, they need to be crystal clear.*
> ...


 
Your first two points above don't necessarily mesh with Tom's assertion (in the sticky above) that this is indeed about a non-existant "realistic" battery carry on level that somehow isn't explained in detail enough by the TSA...or (somehow _again_ more importantly) by the flashlight 'community' itself.

If we don't _understand_ the rules...that's one thing (as Tom suggests; contact the TSA and have the entire thing translated, if needed).

Yet if you are making the point that CPF members should use your 3rd or even 4th point above as a community-wide/held belief that could be used in our communications with the TSA to somehow affect change...I'm not sure what to say.


----------



## LuxLuthor (Jan 6, 2008)

Tom, no I'm still onboard....I just understand how these policies promulgate in a beauracracy like this.

For example, there should be absolutely zero concern about Saphion/A123/Emoli cells, but we all know they won't have that level of sophistication and discrimation to split hairs appropriately.

It will take a while before the front line people even learn about this new policy...then they will have the same confusion on what it means, and what electronics have which types of batteries. 

They will try to simplify it down to an understandable level..like two extra batteries (or none just to be on the safe side like they initially did with liquids) in carry on. Anything more complex than that will cripple the already ridiculous bottleneck crowds.

Forget them trying to figure out 8 grams; primary/secondary cells. Likely if they see a bunch of lithium batteries overall, some of them will just arbitrarily decide you have too many, while another will be checking out the babe behind you, and not notice.

FedEx should have a station next to TSA checkin so people can go over and have their non-permitted items shipped ahead, or to their home. At least that gives you a viable choice if you need to fly.


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## JNewell (Jan 6, 2008)

Not sure if the following has been posted or linked before. I believe it's relatively newer. Source: http://safetravel.dot.gov/whats_new_batteries.html The table at the bottom of that page does not display correctly here so I edited this post to delete it - see the link for a readable version.

Effective January 1, 2008, the following rules apply to the spare lithium batteries you carry with you in case the battery in a device runs low:

*Spare batteries* are the batteries you carry separately from the devices they power. When batteries are installed in a device, they are not considered *spare batteries*.
*You may not* pack a spare lithium battery in your *checked baggage*
*You may* bring spare lithium batteries with you *in carry-on baggage *– see our spare battery tips and how-to sections to find out how to pack spare batteries safely!
Even though we recommend carrying your devices with you in carry-on baggage as well, if you must bring one in checked baggage, you *may* check it with the batteries installed.
The following *quantity limits* apply to *both* your spare and installed batteries. The limits are expressed in grams of “equivalent lithium content.” 8 grams of equivalent lithium content is approximately 100 watt-hours. 25 grams is approximately 300 watt-hours:

Under the new rules, you can bring batteries with up to 8-gram equivalent lithium content. All lithium ion batteries in cell phones are below 8 gram equivalent lithium content. Nearly all laptop computers also are below this quantity threshold.
You can also bring up to two spare batteries with an aggregate equivalent lithium content of up to 25 grams, in addition to any batteries that fall below the 8-gram threshold. Examples of two types of lithium ion batteries with equivalent lithium content over 8 grams but below 25 are shown below.
For a lithium metal battery, whether installed in a device or carried as a spare, the limit on lithium content is 2 grams of lithium metal per battery.
Almost all consumer-type lithium metal batteries are below 2 grams of lithium metal. But if you are unsure, contact the manufacturer!
Examples of extended-life rechargeable lithium batteries (more than 8 but not more than 25 grams of equivalent lithium content):
http://safetravel.dot.gov/images/laptop_battery.jpg*130 watt-hour “universal” lithium ion battery*
http://safetravel.dot.gov/images/whats_new_batt_3.jpg*160 watt-hour lithium ion battery for professional audio/visual equipment*
*GUIDE TO RULES EFFECTIVE JANUARY 1, 2008*​ 
*Type Of Battery/Batteries **In Checked Baggage **In Carry-On Baggage: *

*[See chart at page linked above]*


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## ltiu (Jan 6, 2008)

JNewell said:


> Not sure if the following has been posted or linked before. I believe it's relatively newer. Source: http://safetravel.dot.gov/whats_new_batteries.html



This has been posted a Zazillion times. Old story ...


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## ltiu (Jan 6, 2008)

The "1" in:

"Permitted 1 Recommended 1"

Is in reference to the footnote and not to the number of batteries permitted or recommended !!!




JNewell said:


> *160 watt-hour lithium ion battery for professional audio/visual equipment*
> *GUIDE TO RULES EFFECTIVE JANUARY 1, 2008*​
> *Type Of Battery/Batteries **In Checked Baggage **In Carry-On Baggage: *
> Lithium Metal Battery,
> ...


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## greenLED (Jan 6, 2008)

I had to stop at the Portland, OR, airport yesterday and decided to inquire directly with TSA personnel about their new rules regarding batteries. I asked 3 different TSA people:

 Two gave me the "why on Earth would somebody carry a flashlight?" look; the third actually asked me why I carry a light.
 One asked what type of flashlight that was (SF L1 - not your typical minimag, I guess).
 None of them recognized the 123 battery type in my light, even when I told them it's the same battery type used in some cameras and other electronic devices.
 They hadn't heard about the new rules.
When I told them I read about it on the internet, they told me not to believe information I read online -"Google's like Wikipedia..."
I pressed further and asked about the different types of lithium batts (primary vs. li-ion), lithium content, etc:
 Neither seemed aware of the difference.
 Again, neither knew about the new rules.
 Neither seemed to be worried about a passanger (me, in this case) carrying lights and spare batteries with them.
I walked away with the general message of (I paraphrase):
"As long as you don't carry an inordinate amount of spare batteries, you should be OK".

The answer to my "Would half a dozen extra batteries be OK?" question was:
"As long as the number of batteries matches the length of your trip."

So, to add to the confusion, could there be some leeway in how rules are applied in different airports? You know, just like sometimes you're pulled out of the line in airport A for something that doesn't raise a flag in airports B-F you've gone through in the same trip. Could it be up to the individual TSA agent you encounter, or the local supervisor? :shrug:


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## Art Vandelay (Jan 6, 2008)

Here are some great tips from the TSA on traveling with batteries.
Safe Travel with Batteries and Devices



I think most of the confusion came from poorly written news articles that seem to have been written by people who did not understand the rules.

This link explains the rules. 
http://safetravel.dot.gov/whats_new_batteries.html


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## JNewell (Jan 6, 2008)

ltiu said:


> This has been posted a Zazillion times. Old story ...


 
What I'm not sure has been posted is the chart.



ltiu said:


> The "1" in:
> 
> "Permitted 1 Recommended 1"
> 
> Is in reference to the footnote and not to the number of batteries permitted or recommended !!!


 
Obvious, especially if you check the link, as was suggested, due to the chart not formatting correctly. I will edit it to make that inescapably clear.


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## RA40 (Jan 8, 2008)

This is amusing. For us flashaholics, it is almost obsessive the number of lights being carried. I understand you, I share the joy in flashlights and I travel with them also. Obviously I and my die hard flashaholics are not what TSA has in mind with these safety concerns.

What irks me about this is I am a photogapher and li-ion batteries are integral to operation of my gear. 2 batteries at the conservative interpretation is not acceptable. Camera bodies, meter, strobes... These packs are not in-expensive in the US, finding them upon my arrival at an overseas destination is a guaranteed PITA and costly. Some bodies do have AA capabilities but how far are alkies going to go on heavy shoot days. The laptop, a spare pack for it, and heaven forbid if I need to use a battery pack for firing strobes on location. 

Shipping ahead is an option and on a 30 cruise...it's a gamble. Most times I've sent ahead via surface, those goods tend to reach me in an iffy state. Crushed, damaged or customs has had their hands in them. They NEVER repack the contents properly to prevent damage. I've had some boxes with water damage...a sure bet to have ruined batteries. So then what...several hundred dollars in li-ion packs potentially damaged or missing. I'd send them USPS Global Priority/Express but who knows how sending them by air will be now. If it were simple as donating 123's no big deal, but Li-ion...that is going to be costly if they don't straighten it out. 

The safety/security fixes are not well thought. Like past, it brings much confusion for TSA agents and passengers. The fact this thread has this many posts is true to that.

(I got my soap going there... )


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## LuxLuthor (Jan 8, 2008)

greenLED said:


> I had to stop at the Portland, OR, airport yesterday and decided to inquire directly with TSA personnel about their new rules regarding batteries. I asked 3 different TSA people...



Exactly how I said, and expected it will go. I think everyone was giving the TSA much more credit for being on top of every new guideline/regulation. They are not that organized, sophistocated, or motivated. 

Eventually they will hear about the memos, not understand all the details, enforce them as they see fit, and I doubt they will ever uniformly understand all the nuances in cell types that we have been discussing.

Also keep in mind....similar to LEO's selective enforcement of laws, on the scale of things that the TSA REALLY are trying to screen for (weapons, bombs, explosives), Lithium batteries are going to be at the bottom of the scale...especially when they start running into a lot of people that have Lithiums in devices which will bring the screening stations to a halt. 

What will change it seriously is if there is a catastrophic event from a Lithium cell. Then TSA will be blamed and sued for not doing their job, and will overreact by banning more than they should. Just wait....I'm still saying they will confiscate some manic depressive person's Lithium medication.


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## VidPro (Jan 8, 2008)

i cant understand why any of us flashaholics would want to be responcible for a fire in a cargo hold, with 270 lives at stake?

if you need a "shipment" of spare batteries to run a flashlight, then ship them ground? 
The same kinda damage that can occur when shipped ground, can occur when they Thrust, dump, trod, forklift, toss, drop, tumble, drive, smush, and machine your Check-in luggage, the difference is they will risk human lives when damaged and then shipped under your butt on a plane that has less thickness to its metal than your shurefire  what goes up, comes down rather hard 

there HAVE been many fire incidents on air-cargo shipped lithium, MOST of them NOT on the airline when peoples lives were at risk, THAT is the reason they are attempting to make up some rules that reduce the risk. IF the fires they had in all the airline cargo incidents had been ON airlines IN the air, they would have an outright total ban on them all. probably ship "peoples junk" on a seperate plane from people 

"carry-on" your explosives  why? because nobody is IN the cargo hold to stop a fire, and because "check-in" luggage (cargo) is tortured before it arrives at its destination. With it in your carry-on luggage there is an assumption you wont treat YOUR property like they treat your "check-in" when your not looking.

as far as toxic releaces, there is air exchange possible in the passenger compartment, and sombody to put out a Minor fire before the plane and everyone is at risk from the fire ketching something else on fire.

the STUPID rules do make a bit of sence seeing the ACTUAL fires that have been caused via the lithium cargo (due to poor handling usually), they used to make thier assessments about what you can and cannot do.

it effects mabey 3-5% of us, and the BASIC rule is be generally *safe*, dont damage the thing, dont charge primaries, dont have an excess quantity, dont leave it unattended (cargo hold), dont let it short , dont carry so much that a minor incident becomes a major problem, and dont buy cheap china cells.
that IS what would need to be done to insure that we CAN always carry all the electronic junk that we do carry , and a few carefully stored and cared for properly spare cells.

if you got a shipment, ship it. the eventuality will always be what the risk is, if people increase the risk, then an event occurs, the "bans" will be far worse than "you just can't SHIP (lithium) on a people plane."

it is interesting to note that per MILE airlines are much safer than cars, but per HOUR they aint , plus i would much rather have a fire in my car than when 30,000 feet in the stratosphere with no parachute  , , , no that is a flotation device, for Water floatation , not air floatation.


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## SilverFox (Jan 8, 2008)

Hello VidPro,

Here is the problem as it relates to me... Your Mileage May Vary.

I ship extra flashlights in my checked baggage. To insure that my flashlight does not accidentally come on, I remove the cells from the light, package them so they can't short out, and pack them separate from my light. Under these new rules, I am not supposed to do that. They would rather that my cells be left inside the light.

OK, my first thought was that I can just ship the lights empty and carry spares in my carry on. However, I then discovered that it is possible that I will only be allowed 2 spare batteries.

Now if I could come up with a NiMh pack to carry as a spare for my laptop and video camera, this would be much less of an issue...

Tom


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## VidPro (Jan 8, 2008)

Hi Silver
yup i did recognise that total problem.

THEY
want the cells to be in devices , where they are less likly to be shorted and damaged.
have to deal with people (everyflippingwhere) that use lithium of all types in all kinds of things.
have to deal with people that wouldnt know how to pack a battery for the life of them (heck some DEALERS that sell batteries for a LIVING dont know).
have had fires from poor handling, on poor packaged against damage items.
think that consumer retail packaging is sufficient , but its only protects from shorts (check out the enloop packaging, now that is damage resistant)

WE
know that properly stored in damage resistant containers Outside of the light , its actually safer.
Dont ship Pallets of batteries with 2 layers of cardboard between it and a forklift
might even know what a pelican case is 

know that lots of regular people will toss thier allotment of grams of lithium in without any thought as to what thier luggage goes through, (even if its lost and busts to pieces and is duct taped up before the end of thier trip



TSA checking is HUMAN, and probably doesnt know what is and isnt safe from just looking :-( its also human in the respect that you may or may not pass go, if you have all your stuff together, in proper casements and the spares are "relative" to the need, as opposed to being a 12pack or case of batts.

hmm, so , use other methods for full disconnect of batts, IN a light, a plastic or even thin cardboard insulator inserted between the battery and contacts, like you would do prior to selling a light with battery installed.

some battery pack items dont "travel" well attached to the device , due to weight, like attached snap on batteries, if those were in foamed cases with great protective cases , Instead of the usual consumer tossed in a bag somewhere, i bet the responcibility organisation and professional look and safe transport of the item, would be easier to pass safety inspection, than some slopped together pigpile that sombody has a fit they cant carry on.

heck they wont let me bring my leetel swiss army knife on, or even to dizneyland, as if i am going to take over the roller coaster with a 2.5" blade and a screwdriver  last time i hijacked the plane i had to do it with a carved bar of soap 

no fluids in carry-on over certian quantities anymore either, leaves more room for tech junk .

the #1 problem was mentioned above, if its a no-go the "passenger" is no longer in any sort of position to change things at that point. the Airlines would be 100% smart if they provided a for fee shipping service , so when the plane natzies take over , you just pay some service to have the items tranported differentally.
so why hasnt some entrapenour, (now busy selling on the concourse), jumping on the opertunity of a lifetime for a huge sales of instant bonded shipping services? or mabey that guy out front asking for spare change, get him busy doing somthing usefull.

did you know that Huge Lots of pocket knives and leatherman type tools (from confiscation) are sold on e-bay very often, so many people permanentally give up hundreds of items, and dont ever even come back to get them.
that is a sad state of affairs that certannly must effect peoples feelings about flying.
all them people know is marketing, mabey its about time they marketed something people really need, after all they tossed out the legroom they spent so much to market, meals are worse than tv dinners, and everything extra costs extra.

they can give you booze and nuts on the plane, but they can drive you to drinking and make you nuts before you even get on


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## Art Vandelay (Jan 8, 2008)

VidPro said:


> it is interesting to note that per MILE airlines are much safer than cars, but per HOUR they aint


I saw that statistic in the book Freakonomics, which has lots of great information on perceived danger vs actual danger. That statistic was based on fatalities only, and included all planes that crashed in the US, not just the airlines. In car accidents for every fatality you have 40 non-fatal injuries, some of them very serious injuries. None of the non-fatal injuries were used to come up with that statistic.


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## VidPro (Jan 8, 2008)

Art Vandelay said:


> I saw that statistic in the book Freakonomics, which has lots of great information on perceived danger vs actual danger. That statistic was based on fatalities only, and included all planes that crashed in the US, not just the airlines. In car accidents for every fatality you have 40 non-fatal injuries, some of them very serious injuries. None of the non-fatal injuries were used to come up with that statistic.


 
yup thats true, plumeting to the ground at 200mph after the engine falls off a plane that is older than that car you ditched because it quit running, generally doesnt cause whip-lash and broken legs 

ok enough funny, yup 6,000,000 injuries per year, due to automobiles, many of them life ruining, numbers going down a little bit because of airbags. (they have parachutes in cars now)

and people still cant pack a child correctally in a car, so whats the chances they will pack batteries right, when its easier by far than a child seat


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## radellaf (Jan 9, 2008)

Ever watch Fight Club? The whole "illusion of security" motif therein?

That's what it's all about.

It's the rather American idea that if we only worked hard enough, if we only tried diligently enough, if somebody is held accountable for everything, then any disaster could have been prevented.

Not to say "don't be stupid" isn't good advice, but there's a very rapidly diminishing rate of risk-reduction vs. prevention-effort, and at some point you have to ask what the goal of it all is. To prevent one type of problem, or to save lives in general. There's lots of "low hanging fruit" in the amount of lives that could be saved with modest effort.

But, exploding planes and armed guards at the airport is so much more exciting. <sigh>

----

Back to the batteries, though, what I don't get is how many spares.

"You can also bring up to two spare batteries with an aggregate equivalent lithium content of up to 25 grams, in addition to any batteries that fall below the 8-gram threshold."

So I have two 12g spares, and half a dozen 7g spares in my Carry On. Officially OK, or no?

----

And I so agree about the FedEx thing or whatever. If they are going to arbitrarily, nay capriciously, say you can't bring things aboard, then I think the onus should fall on them to either hold them for you or provide inexpensive shipping, provided you're not being a wise guy about what you try to bring (sword, machete, etc.). That they can _sell_ the stolen goods is egregiously unethical. 

What surprised me most my last trip is that it's not even set up so that my friend who took me to the airport could go with me up to the checkpoint, so _she_ could take the prohibited items home for me. 

Real lesson in group hysteria, it's all been.


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## brightnorm (Jan 10, 2008)

Packing two cr123's in "original packaging" can be a problem because they are likely to be shipped in a small plastic bag with no label, suggesting that you might have stuffed them in yourself. The smallest Surefire pack I've seen is a box of 12 batteries. If Surefire and other sources would make "official" packs for 2 or 3 batteries the screeners would be less likely to pounce. 

Brightnorm


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## Size15's (Jan 10, 2008)

brightnorm said:


> The smallest Surefire pack I've seen is a box of 12 batteries. If Surefire and other sources would make "official" packs for 2 or 3 batteries the screeners would be less likely to pounce.
> 
> Brightnorm


You're not looking!! I understand they are sold in Lowes (?)

SureFire have for as long as I can remember offered a 2-battery card pack.
You can buy 12 of then in a SF24-CB box for $43.20

(You can also buy a pallet of 38,400 Batteries (SF38400-BULK) for $55,296.00 if you're interested in stocking up)


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## brightnorm (Jan 11, 2008)

Thanks Al, I missed that. 

Brightnorm


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## SilverFox (Jan 11, 2008)

Here is a little twist in looking at things...

I have a Pila IBC Li-Ion charger. If I install 2 cells in the charger, is it considered a device with batteries installed, or spare batteries...?

Tom


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## Wicho (Jan 11, 2008)

All the more reason to go with the Fenix L1D!

Seriously though, how many of us REALLY need to travel with more than four loaded flashlights and two spares? I've been traveling with my same lights for years, and I haven't changed the batteries in my A2 but maybe four times and my L1 two or three times. The E1e is on its second battery and the Inova X5 is on the second set as well. 

Yes, these are lights that stay in my travel bag and I don't read in hotel beds with them since I figure if I'm paying XXX dollars a night, I might as well use their electricity.

Don't get me wrong, I know there are times and people who really do need to travel with more spare cells like when flying for a long camping/hiking/whatever trip. It just means we have to think about multi-level lights a bit more and whether or not we really have to run our lights on the highest setting. Or buy spare cells at Target, WallyWorld or wherever.


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## KenAnderson (Jan 11, 2008)

Darkpower said:


> Just don't find yourself at the airport TSA checkpoint having to decide "which" light you'll have to leave behind.


 
In a worse case situation, empty the batteries from your lights and toss them in the garbage. *"No light left behind."*


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## SilverFox (Jan 13, 2008)

It is now 13 days into this ruling. I have heard no horror stories, so I think it could be possible that the TSA listened to everyone that called or emailed them and is letting people fly with an appropriate amount of spares.

Since everything seems to be going smoothly, I am going to un-sticky this thread defining the issue and we can go about business as usual.

Tom


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## RA40 (Jan 24, 2008)

This was the canned response I received today regarding the limited 2 spare batteries per passenger:



> Thank you for your email message concerning lithium batteries. We apologize for the delay in responding to your inquiry.
> 
> New regulations took effect on January 1, 2008, regarding airline passengers traveling with lithium batteries. This safety issue is regulated by the U.S. Department of Transportation's (DOT) Federal Aviation Administration. TSA has and will continue to work closely with the FAA on aviation safety and security issues.
> 
> ...


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## SilverFox (Jan 24, 2008)

Hello Mike,

That is a very reasonable response.

Thanks.

Tom


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## FrogmanM (Jan 24, 2008)

I also recieved the same email, glad they replied!

Mayo


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## JNewell (Jan 24, 2008)

Amazing - you can actually understand what they are doing, and it makes sense. Thanks for posting that.


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## ltiu (Jan 25, 2008)

I got the same canned response today.


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## ltiu (Jan 25, 2008)

I would like to share my experience from my recent flight from the US to Canadia.

I have in my hand carry bag:

1) 1x Fenix T1 with 2x non-rechargeable CR123A (Surefire) inside.
2) 1x Fenix L2D Q5 with 2x L91 inside.
3) 2x CR123A spares (Duralast brand) in original retail packaging. I put these inside a ziplock bag.
4) 4x L91 spares in original retail packaging. I put these inside a ziplock bag.
5) 1 Energizer Energi To Go cell phone charger with 2x L91 inside.
6) 1 Nikon digicam with 2x L91 inside.
7) 1 HP laptop with one 64 watt hour li-on installed with the laptop.
8) 1 Samsung cell phone with 1x li-on battery installed with the phone.

I got no trouble from the TSA going through. Not even a wink or a question.

I am happy, going night snowshoeing tomorrow and I have my flashlights and spare batteries with me. FUN FUN FUN!


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## greenLED (Jan 25, 2008)

Yup, I got that response too. So, we're good, then? Funny how, despite the wording in the ruling, they're not making a distinction between primary and rechargeable lithium-based cells in the e-mail. 

:thinking: If I'm interpreting that e-mail correctly, the "2 cells rule" apply only to laptops? Of course that link takes us back to the whole rule and we're back to square one.


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## brightnorm (Jan 25, 2008)

ltiu said:


> I would like to share my experience from my recent flight from the US to Canadia....I got no trouble from the TSA going through. Not even a wink or a question.


 
I had a similar experience (though with fewer lights and batteries) on a recent flight to Canada. However on the return trip to NYC they made me demonstrate my SPY005 and remove the batteries. My pack of four extra Surefire batteries and my Fenix P3D didn't even rate a mention. 

Brightnorm


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## ltiu (Jan 26, 2008)

greenLED said:


> Yup, I got that response too. So, we're good, then? Funny how, despite the wording in the ruling, they're not making a distinction between primary and rechargeable lithium-based cells in the e-mail.
> 
> :thinking: If I'm interpreting that e-mail correctly, the "2 cells rule" apply only to laptops? Of course that link takes us back to the whole rule and we're back to square one.



Interesting ... upon arriving in Canada. I turned on the TV to watch the local Canadian news and there was a short segment for Canadians travelling to the US to make sure to follow the "new" US battery rules.

In the last part of the segment, they showed pictures of batteries that are OK and not OK.

In the "Not OK" picture, they showed primary lithium button cells and called these li-ion rechargeables. In the "OK" picture, they showed AA alkaline batteries. Note, the "Not OK" picture shows the wrong battery type and calling it something it is not.

This tells me that most people have no clue on the difference between lithium rechargeables and primaries.


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## ampdude (Jan 28, 2008)

I guess we're good as long as we remember to take spare batteries in battery carriers in carry on luggage. According to what I read anyways.


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## brightnorm (Jan 28, 2008)

I'm relieved that we have some leeway. The addition of Class D (copper) extinguishers for lithium primary fires on commercial aircraft would be a relatively inexpensive measure. Perhaps also there is a way to flood freight compartments with this material along with the halon currently in use.

Brightnorm


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## ampdude (Jan 30, 2008)

ampdude said:


> I guess we're good as long as we remember to take spare batteries in battery carriers in carry on luggage. According to what I read anyways.




Now if only I can remember this. Not likely.


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## 5kids (Jan 30, 2008)

I’m flying in 2 months and then traveling for 2 weeks, and of course I’ll have a couple of lights, most likely my P2D/L1D combo with lithium primaries. I’m planning on taking my keep2go carrier loaded with 4 cr123a and taping the contacts for added measure. The clear carrier protects the cells well as well as allows for easy inspection as to what’s inside. I remember seeing at Sportsmans Warehouse a "TSA APPROVE LIGHTER CARRIER" which was bassically a Pelican type hard plastic box with a foam cut out. It would be nice to start seeing some more carriers branded as "TSA APPROVED" for battery transport etc..
https://www.fenix-store.com/images/Clear_with_batts.jpg


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## FlashCrazy (Feb 1, 2008)

I'm going on a trip soon and will be bringing a few lights with me. Most of them are NiMH powered, but a couple are lithium powered. The one I'm kind of worried about is a Mag ROP that will have 7 Eneloop AA's and 1 dummy cell. I'm planning carrying this one in a checked suitcase. My concern is that if my bag gets a TSA check, they will wonder why the heck a Mag is loaded with all these strange batteries in a funny carrier. They've probably never heard of Eneloops, let alone seen batteries that have white wrappers. We'll see....

On a good note, I just returned from a trip where I carried on several lights (in my backpack)with a bunch of spares in small battery cases... all NiMH. Here's the funny part... I went to a R/C airplane convention, and brought back a bunch of goodies. I had several lengths of wire, all kinds of shrink wrap in rather large sizes, electronic servo checker boxes, and blister cards full of button cell batteries. All of this was in my backpack, along with the cases of batteries and misc. flashlights. I placed the backpack on the x-ray conveyor and watched with anticipation. The screener didn't really seem to look at the display for too long, and my backpack popped out the other side. Just then, the screener says to another TSA agent "It's that guy's over there". The other agent asks me "Is this yours?" I say "yes". He reaches in the backpack and pulls out a bottle of water that I forgot about. He says "You can't carry on water" and proceeds to toss it. I apologized, and he said "NO problem, have a nice flight". I was shocked...I had all kinds of stuff that looked like it could be made into a bomb or something, but they didn't bat an eye. They were only worried about the water.


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## SilverFox (Feb 3, 2008)

OK here is what happened to me...

I carry a lot of lights with me and decided to add a couple of extras, just in case the made an issue of me carrying a lot of spare cells.

I hit the TSA check point with 15 lights of various chemistries, plus a generous amount of spare cells. Let's see now, I have 3 Li-Ion 10440 cells, 2 Energizer L92 cells, 12 BatteryStation CR123 cells in a 12 cell carrier, 4 Titanium CR123 cells in plastic wrap, 4 NiMh AA cells in a cell holder, and 4 AA alkaline cells also in a cell holder. 

The TSA person when through my pack and commented that if the lights ever went out, I would be prepared... I smiled and said "Yes I would."

No questions at all about all of my spare cells, no questions at all about all of my lights.

While I was out and about, I decided to pick up some lights that Milkyspit was working on for me. It just happened to be an additional 12 lights.

Coming back I now have my original 15 lights, plus an additional 12 lights. These additional 12 lights were all Safe Lights that were in glow in the dark mode. Half of them were modded with LED changes, and the other half were stock.

One look at my carry on earned me the privilege of individual searching through my pack.  The first step was to wipe a pad across my pack and put it into the sniffer. It sounded an alarm, so now they had to do a detailed inspection to see what set off the alarm. 

"What is in this bag?" I was asked, "A flashlight." I responded.

"How about this bag?" "Another flashlight..."

"Did you know that there are a bunch of your lights that are still on?" "Yes, that is a feature built into the light so you can find them in the dark if you need to." This earned me a strange look and a sly smile from the TSA agent.

I proceeded to show him how the SafeLights worked. I explained that the demo mode automatically shut the light off after a short time as was perfect for little children to play with. He then called over a couple of other agents and asked me to show them as well. I should add that things were very slow at this time and I was not preventing anyone else from being interrogated...  

"Where does a person get these lights?" I told them about CPF Marketplace and Wits Ends sale on these lights. I also mentioned that they could find some additional information at www.safe-light.com . EDIT:Fixed link. ENDEDIT: 

Now, every light that they pulled out of my pack required me to instruct them how it worked and a little comment on how it is used. He pulled my Pitzel Zipka out and had a very puzzled look on his face. I pulled the headband out and put it on my head, turned it on, and he just laughed at me, shaking his head. He was fascinated by the First Light Tomahawk MC and the fact that it could be locked out to prevent accidental activation. He also thought the SureFire A2 was a great idea.

Further investigation revealed that the sniffer machine must have been off because nothing of mine would set it off again. 

Finishing with my pack, he moved on to my EDC Peak Brass Matterhorn. Twisted the head and it turned on. Another smile from him. He then reached into my coat pocket and pulled out my E1e that was fitted with a Lumens Factory lamp and an R-CR123 cell. He was surprised at the amount of light coming from such a little site and asked about that light. I gave him www.SureFire.com and he wrote that down as well.

That was it. Looked at all of my spare batteries and never said a word. 

I would like to thank everyone that contacted the TSA and asked about flashlights and batteries. It seems, from the email responses, that they have changed their position on these items and that is good news to all of us that fly with lights.

My biggest light was a 3 cell light, so I don't know what they would have said about a larger light. They seemed to be happy just playing with the light and seeing it come on. Oh, I should add that my inspector would look into the light as he turned it on. After a few times being blinded, I would warn him that he should probably turn away on the next one. 

So, my advice is to be courteous and respectful, honor their instructions, and offer to help, from a distance until directed otherwise. I found the whole experience almost enjoyable. Two guys sitting next to the X-ray machine, playing with flashlights.  

I was going to ask him if we could turn the lights off, but thought the better of it...

Tom


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## DM51 (Feb 3, 2008)

Excellent story, Tom! 

Maybe we can look forward to welcoming these two as new CPF members soon.


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## this_is_nascar (Feb 3, 2008)

I just re-read the TSA guidelines. I was a bit confused. I thought the issue was with carrying-on batteries. That's not the case. They don't want batteries in checked-in luggage. You can carry what you want with you in your carry-on.


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## Mr Happy (Feb 4, 2008)

SilverFox said:


> I also mentioned that they could find some additional information at www.safelight.com .


I was interested and tried that link, but it doesn't work for me. It just goes to a generic placeholder site.


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## Derek Dean (Feb 4, 2008)

SilverFox said:


> I found the whole experience almost enjoyable. Two guys sitting next to the X-ray machine, playing with flashlights.


 *Almost* enjoyable? LOL. GREAT story Tom, thanks!


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## SilverFox (Feb 4, 2008)

Hello Mr Happy,

Thanks for catching that. There is supposed to be a - between safe and light.

The website is www.safe-light.com . I have edited my post to reflect this.

I hope the TSA people do a Google search and make it to the site...

Tom


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## etc (Feb 4, 2008)

Can one travel with Fenix L2D with 2AA Lithiums inside and a 8-pack of Lithium AA cells?


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## meuge (Feb 4, 2008)

FlashCrazy said:


> I was shocked...I had all kinds of stuff that looked like it could be made into a bomb or something, but they didn't bat an eye. They were only worried about the water.



Just tells you that these restrictions have absolutely no connection with actually preventing any sort of terrorist plot, but rather exist to ensure that it appears as if security exists, and also to make people understand that everything they hold dear is subject to scrutiny and seizure by the government. 

Basically, it's a combination of making people feel safer, and ensuring they're scared of the authority figures.


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## meuge (Feb 4, 2008)

etc said:


> Can one travel with Fenix L2D with 2AA Lithiums inside and a 8-pack of Lithium AA cells?



I have traveled with a number of lights and batteries over the past few months, and I've never had any issues.


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## curlyfry562 (Jan 16, 2010)

Just got through security at LAX with 4 CR123 primaries, 2 17670s, 1 6P Malkoff, and my Milky Gosling. I had the spares in 2 keep to go tubes. Apparently the tubes of cylindrical objects raised a red flag, so I got pulled aside. The TSA guy, was quite wowed at the gosling, and had me turn it on a few times so he could see how bright it is. I refered him t SF and CPF. Maybe we will have another coming in our ranks. TSA + CPFers =:grouphug:


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## Paul_in_Maryland (Jan 17, 2010)

The lesson emerging from these stories is this: What matters is not so much what TSA's rules say, but what TSA's security guards _think_ the rules say or _think_ will happen to them if they err on the side of granting permission.


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