# What guns do you own?



## CPFBiology (Jul 27, 2012)

What guns do you own? What do you recommend for a rifle and a handgun?

Good quality and reasonable price. Is it worth it to spend $1000 on a handgun?


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## jonnyfgroove (Jul 27, 2012)

A Ruger 10/22 is always a great place to start if you are new to guns.:thumbsup:


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## Rossymeister (Jul 27, 2012)

Glock 26 meets my needs just fine. I have owned Colt, Springfield, S&W, and a few others. The only modification that i recommend is switching out the stock sights for MEPRO night sights. In my case, these give better accuracy than the stock sights.


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## CPFBiology (Jul 27, 2012)

What are good brands to look for? For instance, Surefire is good for lights, then there is Fenix, and Sunwayman which are imports, but still very good. What would be the equivalent of HDS, Surefire, or Malkoff? What would be close to Fenix? Are there brands like Ultrafire, Trustfire, Magicfire, Superfire, etc..to watch out for?

I've heard of Glock, Springfield, Colt, Beretta, Browning, S&W.


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## CamoNinja (Jul 27, 2012)

Best thing is to go to a gun shop and try every gun you can, then choose the one that best fits you.


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## Grmnracing (Jul 27, 2012)

Go to a gun shop look around. See what you like. Rent that gun at the shooting range before buying it. You may not like how it shoots for you. Find a caliber you like and can afford to shoot! 

Come hang out with me and the guys at Glocktalk.com


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## SCEMan (Jul 27, 2012)

Based on your question, it sounds like you're just starting out. I'd recommend a .22 lr with a simple UI (Glock-type) pistol or revolver and the ubiquitous Ruger 10/22.


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## Illum (Jul 27, 2012)

Really depends on what do you plan to use it for. Form follows function, no you do not have to spend $1000 on any gun [unless it happened to be a collectors grade infantry rifle buddies of your grandaddy toted into the Pacific theatre. ]

I began with a Yugo M48 mauser, which now surplus has all but dried up. A mosin nagant would fit this category here just fine. Ammo is plentiful, will penetrate just about everything, and a very brutal recoil. In retrospect, I wish I had started with a Ruger 10/22. Low cost, practical, and easy to maintain, and after a long day at the range my shoulder won't need a weekend to recover. 

From a pistol standpoint my experiences are very limited. of all the pistols I've shot, Glock 19 is probably the best pistol I've used and maintained. A good balance between size and simplicity. Rather than going into a gun shop directly, frequent the range first, get familiar with the different rend guns and see which model or company that feels best in your hands. Different companies have slightly different handle pitches, not all fit comfortably. Learn along the way the proper handling of firearms, how to clear the action, etc. Most weapons share the same mode of operation [save the oddballs like the Hakim rifle and the Luger pistol...]. 

To date, currently in the cabinet:

```
Rifle 
1891 Argentine Mauser Sporter    7.65x53 Argentine
VZ24 Romanian Mauser             7.92x27 Mauser
VZ24 Czech Mauser                7.92x57 Mauser
Keltec SU-16CA                   5.56x45 NATO

Shotgun
S.S. Kresge Mod 151              12GA 7-1/2 Shot

Handgun
Keltec PF9                       9x19 Parabellum 
Glock 19 in the works...         9x19 Parabellum
```

All companies one way or another will have lemons, it shouldn't in any way be used to judge the company as a whole. There are certain companies that are known for notoriously bad customer service, but thats about it. My luck is holding out so far, but then again most of mine is military surplus.


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## Chauncey Gardiner (Jul 27, 2012)

CPFBiology said:


> What guns do you own?



This is my rifle, this is my gun, this is for fighting, this is for fun. :laughing:

CPFBiology, you have already received some great advice, ie Renting the pistol before you purchase it. + 1 When I was trying to decide between a 45 and a 40, I rented both from a local firearm store/range. I was surprised to find I was much more accurate with the 45 than the 40. Ask lots of questions, and remember, you're buying a pistol for you.....the one you decided on needs to meet your needs.

Have fun!

~ Chance


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## Imon (Jul 27, 2012)

Illum said:


> From a pistol standpoint my experiences are very limited. of all the pistols I've shot, Glock 19 is probably the best pistol I've used and maintained. A good balance between size and simplicity.



I agree.
In terms of size, weight, capacity, reliability, and functionality I've always thought the G19 struck an almost perfect balance.


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## Mathiashogevold (Jul 27, 2012)

Beretta 686 SP and Tikka M65 

The M65 is a rifle from the 80's with fantastic precision. 

No handgun, i don't like that stuff.


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## GRunner (Jul 28, 2012)

Hi,

First I'd like to know what you using them for. For example, plinking, hunting, target shooting, self-defense, action events and others.
This has a bearing on what to suggest you look at. Your buget should include the firearm, ammo, cleaning equipment, security devices and instruction. Do you have any back ground in handling firearms, if so what is it. If not it will be very smart to receive instruction from a certified instructor. 

Good luck.


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## glockboy (Jul 28, 2012)

Glock 19 for handgun, and lot of ammo.



CPFBiology said:


> Good quality and reasonable price. Is it worth it to spend $1000 on a handgun?


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## CPFBiology (Jul 28, 2012)

GRunner said:


> Hi,
> 
> First I'd like to know what you using them for. For example, plinking, hunting, target shooting, self-defense, action events and others.
> This has a bearing on what to suggest you look at. Your buget should include the firearm, ammo, cleaning equipment, security devices and instruction. Do you have any back ground in handling firearms, if so what is it. If not it will be very smart to receive instruction from a certified instructor.
> ...



From my regional jurisdiction, I cannot use a handgun for anything other than going to a range and shooting targets. I will be taking safe handling lessons because I have not handled such weapons before and it is sensible to do, although a lot of it is common sense already:

1. Assume every gun is loaded and fully functioning regardless of how it looks, age, what anyone else says, etc.
2. Do not point the gun at anything unless you intend to destroy it.
3. Do not pull the trigger unless you intend to destroy whatever the muzzle is pointed at.
4. Remove mag, then clear the chamber, pinch and pull the slide twice and check chamber twice to ensure there are no rounds.
5. Prepare for recoil.
6. Use the right caliber.
7. Keep gun pointed in a safe or generally safe direction.
8. Keep the gun unloaded and in a locking safe when not in use.
9. Be sure of target and what is beyond/behind it.
10. Use trigger locks, but realize that they are not 100% effective, a discharge can still occur.
11. Use hearing protection and eye protection.
12. Assume that any active safety is off.
13. Avoid consuming substances that impair proper judgement.
14. The most important thing to safety is good judgement and clear and safe thinking.


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## indychris (Jul 28, 2012)

CPFBiology said:


> What guns do you own? What do you recommend for a rifle and a handgun?
> 
> Good quality and reasonable price. Is it worth it to spend $1000 on a handgun?




What are you using the handgun for? Plinking? Then get something that you can shoot a lot and not get fatigued. A 9mm is GREAT for plinking, and a lot cheaper to shoot in the long run than say .40 S&W or .45ACP.

Are you looking to carry? How? Pocket? Ankle? Inside waistband? Under a shirt on your belt?

I've carried almost every day of my life since my 18th birthday. Typically, I carry a Kimber Ultra CDP in .45ACP. When I have to, I'll carry a Kahr 9mm on my ankle or a S&W Airweight in .38 spl. If I'm in a circumstance that I can only place something in my shorts pocket, I typically opt for my Ruger LCP in .380.

If you are carrying for defense purposes, then more than anything else you want accuracy and reliability, so the gun has to fit you and it has to feed/cycle consistently. Glocks are great guns, but they fit my hand horribly. I tried for months to try to make it feel comfortable for me, but I simply hate the feel, so don't go on any single recommendation--not from me or anyone here or even your local shop because we all have our personal biases. Go somewhere that will allow you to rent handguns and try different ones out. Get a feel for the gun itself and the load. A .45 that has too much recoil to practice with regularly will not do ANYTHING for you. You're much better off with a 9mm that you can shoot often. Better to be proficient with a lighter load than try to go 'manly' with something you'll never practice with. 

So is $1000 worth it for a handgun? For my Kimber CDP it was MORE than worth it (though it actually cost substantially less than that when I bought mine). But you can likely get a good, reliable handgun for less than that. Just don't compromise on a carry gun because of a couple of hundred bucks, though.


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## Lee1959 (Jul 28, 2012)

I will say much the same as others, it depends upon what you want to use it for. I have numerous firearms, handguns, rifles, shotguns, blackpowder firearms and all have different purposes. I have a variety of handguns, rifles, shotguns and black powder firearms. They range in calibers from .22 RF to ,357 mag, .45acp, 30/30, .44 mag, 12 guage and many in between. I have more Rugers and Marlins (lever actions, blot actions, and semis) than other brands, they are rugged reliable and accurate. 

I prefer to have at least tw for each caliber, and think you tend to get what you pay for, to an extent. Once you get into the top brnds Ruger, Smith, Colt, CZ and others it turns into what your preferences are they are all good.

Starting out I always recommend a .22 rifle and handgun to learn the basics. Learning to shoot properly takes a lot of ammunition and a lot of people cannot afford ot shoot enough to become proficient in centerfire calibers. And becoming profieicnt is the most important thing in using a firearm, there is no excuse to not be proficient if you are going to own and shoot a firearm, especially if you plan on carrying a firearm for protection. I would recommend something like a Marlin 60 (cheaper than a 10/22 and works extremely well) or a bolt action Marlin. For handgun I prefer revolvers especially for newbies but a Ruger pistol (various models 22/45 or the Mark series) is a good place to start if you really want a pistol over a revolver. In a revolver a Ruger Single Six is excellant and gives both .22 LR and .22 magnum options. 

I like rugers and Marlins for their rugged durablity and accuracy and tend to own and recommend them. I am NOT a Glock fan, they just do not fit my hand and I shoot them like crud. I prefer CZ75 designs and 1911 designs over the Glock family. I have nothing against polymer and own several , just not Glocks. 

The best advice is to decide what you want it for, pick a caliber, preferrably .22 to start. Then go to the gunshop and ranges and try everything you can, at the very elast hold them. What fits in your hand will shoot best from your hand usually. No one elses experience will make you shoot a weapon well that you do not like or fits poorly.


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## Bigpal (Jul 28, 2012)

I'm a fan of Springfield, the XD/XDS being my favs. In your flashlight to gun brand comparison, you probably can't go wrong with Glock, Springfield, Sig, Kahr, Ruger, Beretta, Walther and more that some folks will probably be mad at me for not naming.

I'd say Taurus would be a more economical brand with high quality. I have the 24/7 and put tons of rounds through it with no problems.

Budget guns? I'm not sure of any. I had a Kel-Tec a long time ago, but didn't really have too many issues with that either.


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## Illum (Jul 28, 2012)

CPFBiology said:


> 6. Use the right caliber.
> 
> 8. Keep the gun unloaded and in a locking safe when not in use.



Bravo!
Worthy of note, there are calibers that look very similar, and most likely will fire if chambered, but it is very very dangerous to do so. A common ignorance I have seen at the range was someone shooting .38 special in a gun chambered for 9mm Makarov. 

8: While this is the most responsible procedure for gun owners, it pretty much turns the objective of guns a moot point. It should be better worded as _Keep the guns you don't plan on using unloaded and in a locking safe when not in use_. For any military surplus, sock it when not in use, lock it up. If they get out and fires in any place other than the range, you're in trouble. The bullet will pass through several houses worth of cinderblocks like chocolate, you don't need to risk that sort liability. In addition to locking them up, I lock up the bolts separately, at best it'll pass as a club. 



Bigpal said:


> Budget guns? I'm not sure of any. I had a Kel-Tec a long time ago, but didn't really have too many issues with that either.



Hi-point would be something considered budget, you lose a bit on aesthetics, but the mechanism itself is very reliable. They're clunky, brick-like guns


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## Elderberry (Jul 28, 2012)

I am a uhhhhh let's say gun enthusiast... Guns are the one place where you get what you pay for. But you need to know what your goals are before you can answer your questions. For example, if you were looking for a shotgun to occasionally use for hunting bunny wrabbits then a $500 purchase would work out great. But if you were going to use that same gun to shoot clay pigeons it wouldn't last long -- you will shoot a clays gun more times in a year than a hunting gun in a lifetime -- so you need a lot more gun and that costs a lot more...

The best thing is to find a buddy that shoots and go with him to his local range and start learning.... It's a lot like flashlights -- the more you learn the more you buy...


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## CPFBiology (Jul 28, 2012)

Before you all start throwing sticks at me, I am in Canada, a brother to the north. We do not have CCW's here. I won't be carrying whether open or concealed. It will be in a locked box in the vehicle when transported via a permit. It will go to the range only, then back home to its safe.

Can someone tell me about the different Glocks? I am a bit overwhelmed. Like I hear Glock 19 is good, but so is Glock 21. Is it really just variance in size an caliber?

I also heard that the Colt .45 1911 is back in action with the Marines. I am not one to be influenced by the crowd (usually), but this may affect my choice(s).


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## CPFBiology (Jul 28, 2012)

Also considering eventually picking up an AR-15. I hear they are lots of fun to shoot. They have been legalized for Canada as well.


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## Elderberry (Jul 28, 2012)

I don't own a Glock. But I do own 4 or 5 M1911's. Glocks are great weapons. My son has one in .45apc and he loves it. To me it feels like a block of 2x4 wood in my hand -- but that's my fault and not the guns. The point is every gun feels different to every shooter. To me there is no pistol that feels better than a single stack M1911 -- they just fit me well.

You need to shoot both and see which feels better to you. One thing I have learned the hard way is if they don't feel good I will never learn to like them. So I've learned to not buy guns that do not feel good in my hand -- I can never learn to shoot them well.

Go try someone else's or go to a commercial range that rents guns and try them out before you invest your money...


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## GRunner (Jul 29, 2012)

Hello CPFBiology,

Your list of rules in response #14 are fine. There is one that in my opinion is missing. Your rule #3 comes close but is not the same thing. I would suggest that you add to it to--- Keep you finger completely off the trigger until your on target and ready to shoot. 

People have shot themselves while drawing a pistol from the holster because their finger was on the trigger. During the draw they have shot the ground between themselves and the target because their finger was on the trigger. People have been startled and by reflex clinched their hand pulling the trigger unintentionally. All of these things can be avoided by doing the above.


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## GRunner (Jul 29, 2012)

I want to make something clear about the above statement. When I say Keep your finger completely off the trigger until your on target and ready to shoot. I mean your trigger finger is outside of the trigger guard and laying along side the frame of the gun until your on target. At that time your finger would enter the trigger guard and make contact with the trigger. 
I thought some people might think it's all right to leave the trigger finger inside the trigger guard with the finger off the trigger, it's not. If you change your mind about shooting that round off, your finger should come out of the trigger guard and lay along side the frame until your ready to shoot agian.


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## smokinbasser (Jul 29, 2012)

Your mentioning to keep your finger out of the trigger guard till you are ready to shoot seems to be common sense but floating around the internet videos is the sheriffs deputy who before holstering his side arm neglected to remove his finger from off the trigger and put a round in his own foot and scared everybody in the station. We can preach and preach but some need to have an AD to wake them up hopefully and not put a round in their body or anyone else for that matter. To quote one of the History Channels mountain men"common sense ain't so common any more" I got my 1st rifle at age 10 and had handling safety mantras all the time so I would not screw up and have any ADs


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## Flying Turtle (Jul 29, 2012)

Got a Winchester 94 around here that my Dad gave me forty years ago. Just like the one I used to shoot my first (and only) deer.

Geoff


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## Mikeg23 (Jul 29, 2012)

I have always been a big Glock fan... The different models are all just numbers so yes the difference between a G19 and G21 is just size and caliber.

Any of the well known brand names will likely be good as someone mentioned there maybe models that were "lemons". So the good would be, in no particular order, Glock, Kahr, Smith, Ruger, Springfield, Walther, Berreta, Sig, H&K, Colt, Kimber, Wilson Combat, Night Hawk, Keltec, Taurus*, and more... I included Taurus an Keltec but some of their earlier stuff left something to be desired.

I'd say find something that fits your hand well and go from there.
Stay away from High point, Jennings, brayco, anything that sounds to good to be true.



CPFBiology said:


> I also heard that the Colt .45 1911 is back in action with the Marines. I am not one to be influenced by the crowd (usually), but this may affect my choice(s).



I would guess your talking about the Kimber Det-1, the civilian version is called the Kimber Warrior. The answer to your original question: in my opinion the only handgun worth spending $1000+ on is the 1911. They are pretty sweet to shoot and very accurate.


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## Mikeg23 (Jul 29, 2012)

CPFBiology said:


> Also considering eventually picking up an AR-15. I hear they are lots of fun to shoot. They have been legalized for Canada as well.



Yes very fun and you can build them to shoot a variety of calibers including .22 or 9mm as well as many others. Olympic arms even used to make an AR that took Glock mags... For that matter what ever hand gun you choose there may be a rifle that takes the same mags. Ex: beretta CX4, Keltec Sub 2000, etc


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## idleprocess (Jul 29, 2012)

I own/have owned/shot several firearms. Will relay my impressions on everything I can recall...

Pistols
*Browning Buckmark* .22LR target pistol. Striker-fired. Metal frame. Like all .22 autoloaders, it's sensitive to ammunition choice and needs to be well-cleaned/lubricated. Accurate due to fixed barrel and appreciable mass. Magazines aren't very good quality and expensive - recommend something like "the ultimate cliploader" to make reloading less painful if you choose one of these.
*Glock 17* Full size double-stack 9mm. Striker-fired. Polymer frame. Glocks are kind of like the Honda Civic of handguns ... neither pretty nor high-performing, but they can handle the abuse and run forever. For all the detractors of "tactical tupperware", polymer-framed guns have proved amazingly durable.
*Glock 21* Full size double-stack .45ACP. Striker-fired. Polymer frame. Didn't much care for it. Recoil not so manageable. I've got big hands and it was like trying to grip a 2x4.
*Magnum Research Baby Eagle* (Full size, I think) double-stack .45ACP. Hammer-fired. Metal frame. Heavy, severe recoil, overall unpleasing to use. Somewhat surprising since it's a CZ-75 knockoff (licensed), but then again the CZ-75 isn't made in .45...
*Sig P220* Full size single stack .45ACP. Hammer-fired. Metal frame. Like it. Manageable recoil, easy to grip. Has a hammer and a decocker. Occasionally the punchline when someone asks "what 1911 should I get?".
*Sig P226* Full size double-stack .40 S&W. Hammer-fired. Metal frame. Heavy to help deal with the appreciable snap of .40 S&W. Like it. Very accurate.
*Sig P6* compact single-stack 9mm (joke is that it's an 80% scale P220). Hammer-fired. Metal frame. Like it. Decently accurate, mild recoil.
*Sig Pro* Full size double-stack 9mm. Hammer-fired. Polymer frame. Didn't shoot this a lot, but the fact that the magazine completed the lower part of the forward grip profile was a bit weird on recoil.
*Springfield 1911* Full size single stack .45ACP. Metal frame. For me, this was better than the Glock 21, about the same as the P220. Shooting one was not the spiritual experience that 1911 aficionados would have had me think it was going to be.
*Springfield XD-9* Full size double-stack 9mm. Striker-fired. Polymer frame. My impression of it was similar to the Glock 17. I believe it had a lower grip angle.
*Springfield XD-9 subcompact* Subcompact double-stack 9mm. Striker-fired. Essentially the XD-9 with a shorter barrel/slide and shorter grip. Accepts full-size magazines with a sleeve to make the grip profile identical to the full-size, leading to some weird sensations on recoil
*S&W M&P 9* Full size double-stack 9mm. Striker-fired. Good ergonomics. Trigger safety is a bit weird at first.
*Walther P99* Compact double-stack 9mm or .40 S&W. Striker-fired. Beautiful gun that's an ergonomic wonder. Kicks something fierce in .40 and may eject the mag when shooting one-handed (would likely be a great gun in 9mm). Available with a number of trigger configurations; the one I shot was in double/single-action - since it's striker-fired, if you decock your next shot will be in heavier double-action.
*Walther PPS* Subcompact single-stack 9mm. Striker-fired. I'm quite the fan of it. Intended for carry, the PPS is appreciable more "shootable" than the true pocket guns in 9mm and .380ACP that doesn't fatigue the user so terribly. OK accuracy for its size. Extended magazines (7- or 8-rd) extend the grip, leading to some weird sensations on recoil. Stock 6-rd magazine leaves no place for your pinkie finger.

Revolvers
*North American Arms mini* Micro revolvers in numerous rimfire calibers. I'm familiar with their 5-shot .22mag variety. Useless with the stock grip - you can't even pretend to aim since recoil will tip it up appreciably. I gather the optional folding "belt clip" grip remedies this problem, making it about as accurate as a snub-nose revolver.
*Ruger Blackhawk* Single-action 6-shot in a variety of calibers. It's essentially a Colt Peacemaker replica (think nearly every Western movie ever) with improved sights. I'm familiar with the ~7" barrel variety in .45LC - an immense and heavy weapon. Very manageable recoil. A bit pricey to operate in .45LC. I kind of wish I'd gotten the nearly-identical New Vaquero (without the improved sights).
*Ruger GP100* Double-action 6-shot. I'm familiar with the .357 4" barrel version. Unsurprisingly, it's a bit sedate with .38 SPL and lively with hot .357 rounds. Its mass helps with the recoil with heavier loads. Single- vs double-action fire are entirely different experiences... for me, double-action will start to tear skin off my trigger finger after >50 rds of .357.
*Ruger Single-Six* Single-action 6-shot in .22LR / .22mag. With .22LR, this has essentially zero recoil. With .22mag, the recoil is slight. Accurate, although a bit more accurate with .22mag since .22LR is 0.222" in diameter and .22mag is 0.224". Fun to shoot.

Rifles
*AR-15* Semi-automatic .223Remington / 5.56x45. The AR-15 has so many varieties that it's sort of a challenge to write a short description. I've handled them with everything from heavy 20" barrels to lightweight 14.5" barrels. Recoil is pretty manageable since the bullets are pretty light (but generally moving at >3000 FPS at the muzzle). Controls (safety, mag eject, slide release, charging handle) are fairly well thought out. Can be "sub-MoA" accurate at short ranges. Fairly affordable to operate with cheaper ammo so long as you don't abuse its semi-auto nature. The trick with the AR-15 is to avoid bolting on accessories worth 8 times more than the rifle that make it pointlessly heavy.
*AK-47 knockoffs* Semi-automatic 7.62x39. Build quality on these is all over the map. Ergonomics are not very good. I've handled Romanian (bottom of the barrel) and Yugoslavian (a step or two over the Romanians). These are not target rifles - their accuracy rapidly approaches "minute of man" beyond 200 yards, largely as a function of the immense bolt that rides somewhat loosely within the receiver. Recoil is subsequently unpleasant.
*CETME* Semi-automatic 7.62x51. Severe recoil similar to the AK-47 thanks to its even larger bolt within the receiver (this is due to its nature as a roller-delayed blowback action). These rifles maul brass to the point that using commercial .308 in them is not recommended (use milsurp 7.62x51 or steel-cased .308). Ergonomics fairly poor ... need superhuman thumbs to operate the safety and the charging handle can require appreciable force. While probably more accurate than the AK, these are less _precision rifles_, more _bullet hoses_. Magazines are cheap thanks to its ability to use near-identical H&K G3 magazines.
*Marlin 336* Lever-action in numerous calibers. I'm familiar with the 30-30 variety. Good accuracy. Despite 30-30 being on the low end of centerfire rifle calibers in terms of muzzle energy, the 336 kicks a bit hard due to its light weight (but also handles well at the same time). I want to cry when I see these with scopes since they're brush guns and the round generally isn't effective beyond a few hundred yards.
*PSL* Semi-automatic 7.62x54R. Essentially a scaled-up AK-47 action chambered for x54R, which has slightly more Wheaties than .308/7.62x51. Appreciably more accurate than the AK knockoffs with similar perceived recoil thanks to the immense muzzle brake (which also makes them far louder to you and others behind it) and the crude recoil spring at the shoulder pad. Barrel length on these will remind you of the rifles that Napoleonic infantry carried. The included 4x scope is ... interesting. Expect tuning it for commercial ammunition to be a challenge.
*Henry Pump Action Octagon* Pump-action .22LR. These are fun, and - thanks to the regulating motion of operating a pump action - can be fired accurately in rapid succession. A bit heavy due to the barrel. Fun to shoot.
*Remington 572 Fieldmaster* Pump-action .22LR. Similar to the Henry, only with an internal hammer, lighter, and - in my experience - less robust internals than the newer Henry (this might be because the one I have experience with is more than 45 years old). Fun to shoot.
*Ruger 10/22* Semi-automatic .22LR. A classic "plinker" rifle, the 10/22 is relatively cheap, can be decently accurate out of the box, and has a huge accessories aftermarket. Like all .22 autoloaders, it's sensitive to ammunition choice and needs to be well-cleaned/lubricated.
*Savage 10FP* Bolt-action in numerous calibers. I have experience with the .308 heavy barrel version. Extremely accurate with a good scope. - I regret that I never had the chance to experiment with this at ranges >100 yards.

Shotguns
*Maverick Model 88* 12-gauge pump-action. "Budget" model of the Mossberg 500. I've shot trap with one of these with a 28" barrel and it handles well. I've also shot buckshot from one with an 18.5" barrel and ... well ... best not to be hit with buckshot from 15 paces.
*Remington 870* 12-gauge pump-action. Really similar to the Model 88, only the 870 is immensely more friendly to modification.


Somewhat OT...
I'd love to get into black power. I'm presently eyeing replica 1858 Remington and 1860 Army models. Will supposedly teach you not to "race to the bottom of the magazine" since reloading is a time-consuming process.




Illum said:


> Hi-point would be something considered budget, you lose a bit on aesthetics, but the mechanism itself is very reliable. They're clunky, brick-like guns


While Hi-points don't have the tendency to blow up in their owners' faces at the rate that numerous other "budget" guns do, I would still avoid them. They're needlessly clunky, use blowback designs on calibers that no other reputable manufacturer does, and the slides are made of a relatively fragile zinc-magnesium alloy that's not terribly durable (if it fails on rearward recoil, the back of the slide might hit you in the face).

If budget is a concern when shopping for pistols, look for a used piece in good shape. Used steel-frame S&W's and Rugers are great values in addition to being extremely durable.


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## Bullzeyebill (Jul 29, 2012)

Good post idleprocess. My Rem 870 ejects from the right side, not the bottom. My Ithica's did eject from the bottom.

Bill


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## idleprocess (Jul 29, 2012)

Mikeg23 said:


> Any of the well known brand names will likely be good as someone mentioned there maybe models that were "lemons". So the good would be, in no particular order, Glock, Kahr, Smith, Ruger, Springfield, Walther, Berreta, Sig, H&K, Colt, Kimber, Wilson Combat, Night Hawk, Keltec, Taurus*, and more... I included Taurus an Keltec but some of their earlier stuff left something to be desired.



I hear Taurus has the best warranty in the business ... and you are likely to need it. Sad since I fancy a Beretta 92 and the license Taurus flavor is supposedly a better design.

I gather that 1911's from specialty makes (Kimber, Wilson, Night Hawk) may need tuning and/or gunsmithing out of the box. This just seems to be something that's accepted by the buying public and is more likely with mods that deviate from the standard 1911 design.

I think Kel-Tec's reputation has to do with the fact that their niche is pocket guns, which are notoriously unreliable out-of-the-box _without tuning_. Other makers of pocket guns - Kahr, Rohrbaugh, North American Arms - all have similar reputations (as do the major manufacturers that do pocket guns). Seems to be due to the nature of pocket guns and is made worse by the low price point that Kel-Tec operates at.


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## idleprocess (Jul 29, 2012)

Bullzeyebill said:


> Good post idleprocess. My Rem 870 ejects from the right side, not the bottom. My Ithica's did eject from the bottom.
> 
> Bill


I don't own one, but now that I think about it in more detail, you're right. What I was really thinking of was the 870 loading gate that remains in the lower position when the bolt is closed rather than in the upper position like the Mossberg 500 and variants, making reloading slightly more involved.


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## Mikeg23 (Jul 29, 2012)

idleprocess said:


> I gather that 1911's from specialty makes (Kimber, Wilson, Night Hawk) may need tuning and/or gunsmithing out of the box. This just seems to be something that's accepted by the buying public and is more likely with mods that deviate from the standard 1911 design.



A Wilson combat, Night hawk, Ed Brown should be golden right out of the box... It's the mass produced guns like Colt, Kimber, Springfield, etc that may or may not need tinkering but they will still be reliable out the box... The inexpensive 1911's that's another story.


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## idleprocess (Jul 30, 2012)

Mikeg23 said:


> A Wilson combat, Night hawk, Ed Brown should be golden right out of the box... It's the mass produced guns like Colt, Kimber, Springfield, etc that may or may not need tinkering but they will still be reliable out the box... The inexpensive 1911's that's another story.



I've heard that Springfields are currently the most reliable out of the box (feeding, firing, cycling). I also gather that until recently, it was perfectly normal for custom 1911s to require out-of-the-box attention from gunsmiths. But my information may well be out of date and my intent is not to debate.

The 1911 design isn't a bad one, but it's from an era of _fitting_ that's not amenable to today's lean mass production (where quality is designed in and QC is done on a sample basis to confirm process itself is within tolerance). The looser the overall tolerances, the more reliable it should be without fitting. A truly _tuned_ 1911 that deviates from the baseline design should be fine so long as you operate it within the narrower parameters it works within ... and so long as the manufacturer actually fit and tested it prior to shipment.

I will confess that I hear people speaking of "trigger jobs" and the like and my eyes start to glass over ... the oft-heard _3" groups at 25 yards_ just isn't what I'm looking for out of a handgun - so long as I can hit a silhouette at 25 yards, I'm satisfied.


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## Lee1959 (Jul 30, 2012)

Mikeg23 said:


> I have always been a big Glock fan... The different models are all just numbers so yes the difference between a G19 and G21 is just size and caliber.
> 
> Any of the well known brand names will likely be good as someone mentioned there maybe models that were "lemons". So the good would be, in no particular order, Glock, Kahr, Smith, Ruger, Springfield, Walther, Berreta, Sig, H&K, Colt, Kimber, Wilson Combat, Night Hawk, Keltec, Taurus*, and more... I included Taurus an Keltec but some of their earlier stuff left something to be desired.
> 
> ...




No a version of the Colt 1911Railgun is now official issue with the marine special forces.


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## Mikeg23 (Jul 30, 2012)

Lee1959 said:


> No a version of the Colt 1911Railgun is now official issue with the marine special forces.



I see well I said "I would guess" haha. I did not realize that about the Colt. Still a Kimber warrior is a great 1911!


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## Lee1959 (Jul 30, 2012)

Mikeg23 said:


> I see well I said "I would guess" haha. I did not realize that about the Colt. Still a Kimber warrior is a great 1911!



They are certainly one of the very best indeed. Would not hesitate ot buy one.


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## Mikeg23 (Jul 30, 2012)

Lee1959 said:


> They are certainly one of the very best indeed. Would not hesitate ot buy one.



I had one but I made the mistake of having a Wilson combat grip safety installed. I soon found out that I don't like the way they feel so I trades it off, but I still have my Caspian with ED Brown grip safety.


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## CPFBiology (Jul 30, 2012)

Copy of idleprocess's very, very, very long post was removed. No need to do that. Just refer to it for your thanks.

Thanks for this. I will have a look through.


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## Illum (Jul 30, 2012)

idleprocess said:


> I hear Taurus has the best warranty in the business ... and you are likely to need it. Sad since I fancy a Beretta 92 and the license Taurus flavor is supposedly a better design.



In the US maybe, but how do their international warranties compare I wonder. I almost... almost bought a PT-1911 in 9mm after I shot 50 rounds through a friends gun. Despite winning high marks, I still think 1911s should be reserved for .45ACP


I have to wonder though, is an autoloader a suitable first gun? I am inclined still on bolt actions... they are by far easier to disassemble, and makes you learn conservatively shot placement. Back when .223 prices was low I had more than one occiasion been recommended a savage bolt gun as a starter. Accuracy out of the box, can do target shooting or varmint [from palm sized to 2o pounders ]


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## bstrickler (Jul 30, 2012)

I personally love my Sig 229 in .40 S&W. The reason I bought this over a 9mm, is because you can buy a .357 Sig barrel and 9mm barrel for ~$250 each, and not require new magazines/slides (although I would get a 9mm magazine if it were for self defense). You can also get a .22 conversion kit for about the same price.

So for $750 on top of the gun price, you can have the ability to shoot 4 different calibers.

Does Canada require a safety to be on the gun? If so, a Sig is not the gun for you (they don't have safety's, only a decocker). I prefer it this way, because there's no need to fumble with a safety, or accidentally engage it while firing.


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## idleprocess (Jul 30, 2012)

Illum said:


> I have to wonder though, is an autoloader a suitable first gun? I am inclined still on bolt actions... they are by far easier to disassemble, and makes you learn conservatively shot placement. Back when .223 prices was low I had more than one occiasion been recommended a savage bolt gun as a starter. Accuracy out of the box, can do target shooting or varmint [from palm sized to 2o pounders ]



The average human being is more than capable of figuring out how to operate and field-strip the average pistol or semi-auto rifle.

I will agree that bolt-action rifles encourage accuracy, pacing yourself, learning fundamentals, and tend to be far cheaper to operate. At the range, you will tend to see the more accurate AR shooters pacing themselves and with 10- or 20-rd magazines.

I will say that there's something to developing a rhythm while shooting - find the natural time to "reset" then pull the trigger as soon as you can ready yourself. Folks that do that - provided all their fundamentals are good - seem to do better than the "egg timer" method. I suppose that the latter teaches you to fully reset your stance, grip, aim, etc.


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## Search (Aug 12, 2012)

idleprocess said:


> I've heard that Springfields are currently the most reliable out of the box (feeding, firing, cycling).



My Springfield Loaded (Black Parkerized) remains golden. Over 800 rounds and not a single hiccup. Mostly ball but quite a bit of hollow point.

Others include H&K HK45 (my baby), H&K USPc .40, Glock 22, and Glock 26.

Sig 226 (9mm) and Glock 19 are on the way


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## idleprocess (Aug 12, 2012)

I've seen >10,000 rounds each through a G17 and XD-9 with minimal cleaning (perhaps a dozen times per), no maintenance, and no faults that weren't user or ammunition related. Most exciting thing I've seen was a squib round that had just enough wheaties to separate the bullet from the casing that rendered it inoperative until the bullet was poked out.


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## Search (Aug 12, 2012)

idleprocess said:


> I've seen >10,000 rounds each through a G17 and XD-9 with minimal cleaning (perhaps a dozen times per), no maintenance, and no faults that weren't user or ammunition related. Most exciting thing I've seen was a squib round that had just enough wheaties to separate the bullet from the casing that rendered it inoperative until the bullet was poked out.



Had this happen with a Rem bolt action shooting a .270 .. It was quite odd to hear.

Worst was shooting reloads through a Glock 22. Guy had shot a round, it ejected the case, and chambered the next round. Right before he fired again the range master yelled out to go cold and he checked it. Enough pressure to send the round just far enough into the chamber next round.


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## trigger858 (Aug 12, 2012)

X2 on the 10/22 Ruger. I got one love it. shoot all day long for less than 25$.
I'm looking at Mark3 next and put a volquartzen barrel on it.


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## arvetus (Aug 18, 2012)

I've got a few that I use for different purposes: Browning BAR 30.06, great grandpa's Win94 30-30, Win100 .308, AR15 in 7.62x39...etc, but the one I always carry with me is my Smith & Wesson J-frame .357 mag. Small, light, easily concealable.


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## HighlanderNorth (Aug 19, 2012)

CPFBiology said:


> What guns do you own? What do you recommend for a rifle and a handgun?
> 
> Good quality and reasonable price. Is it worth it to spend $1000 on a handgun?





Dont need to spend $1000 on a handgun. If you want a great, safe semi-auto, look no farther than the wonderful Springfield XD or XDM series. They can be had for about $450 to start, and if you want the top model XDM, then it'll be about $600 or so, give or take... Safest semi-auto on the market, always gets great reviews from just about everyone, shoots extremely well, very reliable, Feels great in your hand, etc. Its like the next generation of polymer pistols. You can get it in just about any semi auto pistol caliber too.

As far as a great shotgun, you cant go wrong with the tried and true Remington 870 series pump. You can get an 870 Express for about $400 or so, but I have not priced them in a few years, so I may be off a little there.

But for $1000, you can get a Springfield XD9(9mm) for about $450, and a Remington 870 pump 12 gauge for under the $550 you have left, and you would be absolutely assured of having 2 fantastic firearms!


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## Search (Aug 25, 2012)

HighlanderNorth said:


> Dont need to spend $1000 on a handgun.



You don't need to, but it doesn't hurt 

My baby is a H&K HK45, about $1100 now.

Every hand it touches can't seem to ever put it down.


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## Glock 22 (Aug 28, 2012)

I just traded my Glock 22 in for a Springfield Mil-Spec 1911-A1 stainless, and I love it. Now my user name is useless really. Other gun I own just to name a few is a Benelli MD2 Field 12ga, Glock 23 Gen 4, Smith and Wesson model 637 .38 special, Remington 1100 20ga, Remingtion 1187 Premier 20ga, Remingtion 1100 410ga, Smith and Wesson model 622 .22cal, etc.


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## Mr.Sun (Sep 1, 2012)

Hmmmmmm ....... I'd think the best out of the box handguns for the money would be a Glock, try GunBroker for a good deal. Also, after you buy the Glock get yourself a Ruger .22 with the money left over and ammo's cheap. Burn through a few 500 rd bricks for almost nuth'in .......... Then when it's time to make every shot count with the Glock you'll be experienced. IMHO shooting is a practice, practice, practice sport. Have fun and good luck 

Here's one of my carry guns.


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## CamoNinja (Sep 1, 2012)

Nice




[/QUOTE]


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## idleprocess (Sep 2, 2012)

On an entirely different tack, I have recently obtained a replica Remington Model 1858, which is extremely entertaining to shoot due to the immense flash and cloud of smoke you get with each shot. Reloading is also a lengthy process that teaches you the value of modern repeating arms (along with their vastly increased ammunition consumption).


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## idleprocess (Sep 2, 2012)

Mr.Sun said:


> Here's one of my carry guns.



Delta Elite style inlay on the grips ... 10mm?


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## Mr.Sun (Sep 2, 2012)

idleprocess said:


> Delta Elite style inlay on the grips ... 10mm?


 My favorite 10mm ...... Built buy the head gunsmith at STI, Kart fitted barrel with Briley Spherical Bushings .........The parts list is bank breaking, the most consistent point and shoot handgun I've owned.


I apologize for the hi-jack.


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## Jhovorka (Sep 2, 2012)

CamoNinja said:


> Best thing is to go to a gun shop and try every gun you can, then choose the one that best fits you.



+1 Agreed everyone has different wants/needs in a firearm.


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## HaileStorm (Sep 2, 2012)

Another +1 on trying out guns prior to purchasing. We all have different built, different hand sizes and moreover, different preferences. Buy what you like and buy what fits you. 

Having said that, Glocks are generally safe choices an reliable, but as others have mentioned, they don't feel right in my hand. I really like 1911's (I'd buy STI or Para), Springfield's XDM, HK's USP Tactical, Berretta's 92fs and a few Sigs. That would be a good place to start your search. Make a shortlist of your preferred guns, rent and shoot them and then make YOUR decision. Nobody can tell you which gun and caliber YOU will be comfortable with. Hth. 

Sent from my GT-S5830 using Tapatalk 2


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## Admiralgrey (Sep 2, 2012)

Lee1959 said:


> Starting out I always recommend a .22 rifle and handgun to learn the basics. Learning to shoot properly takes a lot of ammunition...



+1

Owning something that you can practice with extensively is your most important first purchase. Even a pellet pistol/rifle will due, so long as you put in your dues. I do not own a center-fire pistol, but I can consistently out-shoot my range buddies with their own weapons. Part of the advantage is in learning to relax and not anticipate recoil. If your learning to shoot, starting out with a bruiser can leave you with some tendencies that will be difficult to loose. 

That said, no firearm collection or survival kit is complete without a 22lr and a stash of ammo. Buying 10,000 rounds of anything else is cost prohibitive and will leave your dinner splattered all over the trees instead of in your pot


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## ABTOMAT (Sep 2, 2012)

My preference in handguns means I have almost no models to chose from: DA/SA, single stack, metal frame. A few Sig and S&W models are nearly it as far as I know.


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## Illum (Sep 2, 2012)

Mr.Sun said:


> Hmmmmmm ....... I'd think the best out of the box handguns for the money would be a Glock, try GunBroker for a good deal.



+1
Check with aimsurplus.com labor days sale, if I recall correctly their G19 Gen 3s are marked way below retail. I would recommend handling one first before putting your Franklins on the table. While many manufacturers are reliable, grips are not one size fits all. Check with how your hands feel and see what you are comfortable with.


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## moshow9 (Sep 5, 2012)

I'll reiterate what others have said: 1) Check out some different guns in hand and see what feels best, and then 2) Rent the ones that fit your hand right if you are able and see if you are comfortable shooting them.

For my first handgun I was pretty much set on a Glock due to it's reliability. Initially, I wanted a Glock 26 (sub-compact 9mm, holds 10+1). I was advised on another forum to start off with a full size weapon by the majority of participants, so I went with a Glock 19 (Compact 9mm, holds 15+1). The Glock 19 felt okay in my hands but when it came to range time I never really felt comfortable with it. Accuracy suffered as a result. I was able to trade it in for a 26 and the difference is night and day with how comfortable it is to shoot for me.


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## gadget_lover (Sep 6, 2012)

I have to agree with the Ruger 10/22 for beginners. Inexpensive, durable and fairly accurate. Fun to fire too.

Someone mentioned that it's a good "survival kit" rifle. I have to agree. A cheap scope and I can hit 1 inch targets at 25 yards. Thats good enough for hunting small animals. I'll update this tomorrow after a little time at the range. I suspect that it will do 1 inch groups at 50 and 100 yards too. 

With 100 rounds for $10, or 300 for $22, it's really cheap to shoot. 

I've had my 10/22 since 1975, and it was not shot in 20 years, yet did fine at the range last week with only a quick cleaning and oiling.


Daniel


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## Mr.Sun (Sep 6, 2012)

This one even has a flashlight


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## Mr.Sun (Sep 6, 2012)

A very quiet tack driver, Clark lower rebuild....


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## Chauncey Gardiner (Sep 6, 2012)

^ WOW! You've got some cool toys! :thumbsup: Can I come over and play?

~ Chance


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## gadget_lover (Sep 6, 2012)

gadget_lover said:


> A cheap scope and I can hit 1 inch targets at 25 yards. Thats good enough for hunting small animals. I'll update this tomorrow after a little time at the range. I suspect that it will do 1 inch groups at 50 and 100 yards too.



Follow-up on the 10/22. I only did the 25 and 50 yard range. It might be able to shoot 1 inch groups at 50 yards, but not with my skills. Shooting from a standing position, I was only able to hit the 1 inch target 3 times out of 10. I did not try a bench rest. 

Dan


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## matt_j (Sep 6, 2012)

CPFBiology said:


> What guns do you own? What do you recommend for a rifle and a handgun?
> 
> Good quality and reasonable price. Is it worth it to spend $1000 on a handgun?



Handguns:
Ruger Alaskan
Springfield 1911 milspec
Glock 19

Rifles
Rock Rive Armory Operator
Rem 700
Ruger 10/22
Springfield Scout

Shotgun
Remingtom 870

As far as recommendation for handgun I would go with Glock 19 (for smaller hands) or 17 (for bigger hands). Good handguns, reliable. In 9mm they are fun to shoot with pretty affordable ammo. If you are into classics thou 1911 style handguns are great. Smaller capacity on the mag but good piece of proven engineering there. I would also get a conversion kit for 22 caliber so you can get some extra trigger time with cheaper ammo (for either glock or 1911). As far as the rifle goes Ruger 10/22 is awesome beginner gun that no matter what you do buy later on you will have fun to shoot. Countless mods you can do with it and easy to maintain. I can spend all day shooting my AR but in the end I always come back to my 10/22.


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## Supergyro (Sep 6, 2012)

As far as handguns go, if you haven't held a CZ 75 or other CZ variant, you don't know comfort! They have just the perfect grip angle.

Of course, this is just my opinion.


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## Quest4fire (Sep 10, 2012)

Magnum research Desert Eagle MK XIX- Barrels: 10" .50 AE, 6" .44 Mag., 6" 357 Mag.

Springfield Armory XD Tactical .45 ACP

AMT Automag III .30 Carbine

Smith & Wesson Model 52 .38 Special (Wadcutter only)

Ruger Redhawk SS 7.5" .44 Mag.

Ruger GP-100 SS 6" full lug barrel .357 Mag.

Colt python 4" .357 Mag

Starting to see a theme developing here? I like *BIG BORE* and I can not lie! You other brothers can't deny!

Mr. Sun, I am holding my breath waiting for you to post another picture from your obviously _AWESOME_ collection!!!


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## Grizzman (Sep 10, 2012)

I highly recommend renting as many handguns as you can before buying. I've taken quite a few friends to the range for their first time shooting and no two individuals preferred the same one. 

For your intended range only use for a handgun, a .22 LR is always a good choice. A Browning Buckmark or Ruger MKIII would be good choices at the more reasonable end. Smith & Wesson's models 17 and 617 .22 LR quite popular, but will cost a fair bit more than a typical semi auto. I bought an early 80s vintage Smith & Wesson Model 41 target pistol last year, and have been extremely pleased with it.

A revolver chambered in .357 Magnum also works well as a range gun. Ammo ranging from light recoiling .38 Specials up to fire breathing (literally) .357 Magnums can be used interchangeably. Smith and Wesson makes a quality product, with their older blued or nickel plated models being more desirable.

Glocks are definitely something to consider, but I've never had a friend tell me that they like shooting my mid sized .40 S&W model 23. If the goal is to have on for a SHTF scenario, then I's say a Glock is an outstanding choice, but not for punching paper at the range. I've heard lots of positive things regarding Smith & Wesson's M&P series of polymer pistols, and finally got the chance to shoot a co-worker's 9mm full sized version about a month ago. I was very impressed in the grip design, sight picture, trigger feel (especially), felt recoil, and overall ergonomics.


My current favorite semi auto rifle is the M1 (Garand), and the Springfield M1A isn't too far behind it. I've got a few ARs, but they have no soul, and wood and steel trump aluminum and polymer (IMHO) every time. Bolt actions also work well for range use, and my preferences are Remington 700s in Walnut and blued steel and Savage in Polymer and stainless steel. For range use, .223 Remington is a good choice with a heavy or even bull barrel for tolerable all day shooting, and are generally quite accurate to boot. Lever actions are also a lot of fun, and can be acquired in a wide range of chamberings from .22 LR to .45-70 Government.

Is it wise to spend over $1000 on a handgun? Only if you can easily afford to do so, and generally only on a 1911. The 1911 is an outstanding platform, but they weren't designed for the non-enthusiast and make a poor first handgun.

Good luck in your decision.

Grizz


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## Evosil98 (Sep 11, 2012)

For handgun, you can't go wrong with a Glock 19 but I've been shooting my Ruger MarkIII 22/45 alot lately. 

For a rifle, AR15 platform would be my choice and always go with a reliable proven company such as BCM, Daniel Defense, Noveske, Colt and LMT


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## HaileStorm (Sep 11, 2012)

Shot an STI Legend in .40 at the range last Sunday... Man, I didn't want to let go... 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD


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## Illum (Sep 11, 2012)

idleprocess said:


> *PSL* Semi-automatic 7.62x54R. Essentially a scaled-up AK-47 action chambered for x54R, which has slightly more Wheaties than .308/7.62x51. Appreciably more accurate than the AK knockoffs with similar perceived recoil thanks to the immense muzzle brake (which also makes them far louder to you and others behind it) and the crude recoil spring at the shoulder pad. Barrel length on these will remind you of the rifles that Napoleonic infantry carried. The included 4x scope is ... interesting. Expect tuning it for commercial ammunition to be a challenge.



 :hahaha: [j/k]:laughing:
I've been looking to get one way back, never did find one that didn't have QC problems all over the map. Some were rebuilt, others were stored in pitiful conditions and the sellers still want $600-800 for them. :shakehead



> While Hi-points don't have the tendency to blow up in their owners' faces at the rate that numerous other "budget" guns do, I would still avoid them. They're needlessly clunky, use blowback designs on calibers that no other reputable manufacturer does, and the slides are made of a relatively fragile zinc-magnesium alloy that's not terribly durable (if it fails on rearward recoil, the back of the slide might hit you in the face).



I know, I know:nana:, keltec's rifles have that rearward reciever problem too. The bolt is smacking it on every cycle.:fail:


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## idleprocess (Sep 12, 2012)

Illum said:


> :hahaha: [j/k]:laughing:
> I've been looking to get one way back, never did find one that didn't have QC problems all over the map. Some were rebuilt, others were stored in pitiful conditions and the sellers still want $600-800 for them. :shakehead


The example I have experience with is in good conditions and works dandy - was supposedly manufactured new(ish) for the importer. While everyone wants the LPS-4 scope that's original equipment just to "round out the set", it's probably better to cough up a few bucks for a "rezeroable" siderail mount and a decent standard rifle scope since the LPS-4 scope is designed around the specific ammunition that the Romanians would have issued with the PSL and is nowhere near as adjustable as what most are accustomed to.


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