# my new lathe ... Precision Matthews 12x36 ...



## wquiles

I knew it all along when I got the HF8x14 last year that I was going to move to a larger machine, but it is actually happening a little bit sooner than I anticipated 

With much help (and encouragement!) from MirageMan (Brian), I just ordered the PM 12x36 lathe, with DRO and accesories:
http://precisionmatthews.com/PM1236Lathe.html

It is not as large and nice as Brian's tool room grade 13x40 lathe, and not as fancy as Mac's awesome CNC machine, but it is definitely a significant step up from my current small lathe.

With any luck it will be in my garage next week :devil:

As usual, I will post "some" pictures 

Will

PS
I don't have room for two machines, so I will be selling the heavily modified and upgraded HF8x14 (with DRO and tons of tooling) once the new machine is up and running. I will start a thread in the proper subforum once I am ready, but I wanted to give folks in this forum a heads up in case anyone is interested. EDIT: 8x machine sold to another forum member


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## precisionworks

*Re: my new lathe ...*

Now you are hooked:twothumbs


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## donn_

*Re: my new lathe ...*

:thumbsup:

Curses! You moved too fast for me. I'm at least 6 months away from the workshop...maybe more.

I had to Google DRO...let's see; it probably isn't HyDROponically grown marijuana, and it probably isn't Disablity Rights Office...so it must be Digital Read Out? Cool!


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## wquiles

*Re: my new lathe ...*



donn_ said:


> :thumbsup:
> 
> Curses! You moved too fast for me. I'm at least 6 months away from the workshop...maybe more.
> 
> I had to Google DRO...let's see; it probably isn't HyDROponically grown marijuana, and it probably isn't Disablity Rights Office...so it must be Digital Read Out? Cool!



Yup - having a DRO is that important to me now. Once I installed the Shumatech that *modamag* sold me on the HF 8x14 machine, I was hooked for good - never again to operate a lathe without a DRO :devil:

I have now done so many 1xD re-thread jobs that I have lost count, but thanks to being alert and to the DRO, I have never messed up - not even once. Not only I can make better parts, I can now do them quicker, and with less variation from part to part.

The DRO helps that much when doing repetitive jobs - almost like following a cooking recipe :thumbsup: . The Shumatech in my small lathe was good, but after a few circuit board upgrades (thanks the very active user group), mine works better now and with zero flickering - just solid performance whether moving slowly or fast :thumbsup: . I am definitely spoiled - I hope that the DRO in the new PM 12x36 will be just as good 

Will


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## tx101

*Re: my new lathe ...*

Will, now that you have upgraded your lathe, maybe you should upgrade
the heating in your garage/workshop now


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## wquiles

*Re: my new lathe ...*

I hear you loud and clear buddy!

Good news: I got a new lathe :twothumbs

Bad news: I got only one week to make room for it - I currently have way too much S#&*T in my garage right now 


Will


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## precisionworks

*Re: my new lathe ...*



> thanks to being alert and to the DRO, I have never messed up - not even once


That's the biggest advantage, more good parts and less scrap. I ran a Bridgeport that had a one axis readout (second axis was dead) ... what a PITA, counting turns after removing the slop, etc. Whenever I messed up a part, the hole was off by exactly 0.1000"

The Acu-Rite on my mill is superb. Reads to 0.0005", which is closer than you need for most work. Built in bolt hole circle program -- while that can be trigged out manually it is ten times faster with the DRO. Really neat to drill 12 holes is a circle, switch to countersink & touch all 12, switch to tap & finish the job. Once you use one, it's painful to work without it.


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## Mirage_Man

*Re: my new lathe ...*

Congrats Will! It's nice that you don't have to wait like I did to get it.

BTW there are 2 sites for PM machinery. THIS one has pictures that you can enlarge.


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## cmacclel

*Re: my new lathe ...*

Thats the same as the Grizzly 4003g I had but with a enclosed gearbox. Be ready for it to be 10x louder than your current machine  

Whats the bore size? The whole reason I went with the Grizzly was because it had a 1.625 through hole. All the other machines in that size range I was looking at only had 1.5" which would not let a mag body through.

My new lathe which may be here monday has a 2.120 through hole 

You'd be amazed at the difference in rigidness. With that 12x36 you can take .250 passes from aluminum 

Mac


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## wquiles

*Re: my new lathe ...*



cmacclel said:


> Thats the same as the Grizzly 4003g I had but with a enclosed gearbox. Be ready for it to be 10x louder than your current machine
> 
> Whats the bore size? The whole reason I went with the Grizzly was because it had a 1.625 through hole. All the other machines in that size range I was looking at only had 1.5" which would not let a mag body through.
> 
> My new lathe which may be here Monday has a 2.120 through hole
> 
> You'd be amazed at the difference in rigidness. With that 12x36 you can take .250 passes from aluminum
> 
> Mac




Thanks Mac, and I am definitely looking forward to pics of your new CNC setup on Monday 

Bore size is quoted at 1.5", but it is in reality based on a metric measurement, so I don't know for sure. I guess I could always trim the inside a little to get the mag body to barely fit (without getting much into the tapered part). I should know next week, either Wed or Friday 

As to the noise, that is a bummer since my current machine is VERY quiet, but I guess something I will have to get used. Being able to get a more rigid machine will probably be a good compromise :thumbsup:

Will


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## Anglepoise

*Re: my new lathe ...*

Best Xmas present for us all.........expect more pictures.


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## precisionworks

*Re: my new lathe ...*



> Be ready for it to be 10x louder than your current machine


I've run some good sized older machines, 24" swing, that were near silent -- for a few good reasons. The fill capacity on those machines is around 5 gallons. The headstock castings are thick, often in the 3/4" to 1" range. Many have a top cover that weighs the better part of 100#. Lots of heavy iron, filled with a large quantity of oil, really deadens the sound.

Even "little" 14" machines from the same era, like the American Pacemaker, weigh over 8000#, for the same reasons stated above. Fast forward to today, and the average imported 14" weighs 2000#. It's physically impossible for a 2000# machine to be as quiet, as free from vibration, etc., as one weighing 4X as much.


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## wquiles

*Re: my new lathe ...*



precisionworks said:


> I've run some good sized older machines, 24" swing, that were near silent -- for a few good reasons. The fill capacity on those machines is around 5 gallons. The headstock castings are thick, often in the 3/4" to 1" range. Many have a top cover that weighs the better part of 100#. Lots of heavy iron, filled with a large quantity of oil, really deadens the sound.
> 
> Even "little" 14" machines from the same era, like the American Pacemaker, weigh over 8000#, for the same reasons stated above. Fast forward to today, and the average imported 14" weighs 2000#. It's physically impossible for a 2000# machine to be as quiet, as free from vibration, etc., as one weighing 4X as much.



I am going to go on a limb, that the China factory did not use the best possible oil to fill my lathe, so I would like to start with something that would offer better wear protection. What type/brand of oil is recommended for these machines?

Will


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## Mirage_Man

*Re: my new lathe ...*



wquiles said:


> I am going to go on a limb, that the China factory did not use the best possible oil to fill my lathe, so I would like to start with something that would offer better wear protection. What type/brand of oil is recommended for these machines?
> 
> Will



I'm pretty sure the lathes ship dry and Matt fills them when he tests them. If you shoot him an email or give him a call he'll certainly let you one way or the other.



cmacclel said:


> Be ready for it to be 10x louder than your current machine



Mac, you'd be surprised what a difference having the gear box enclosed and the gears bathed in oil makes.


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## wquiles

*Re: my new lathe ...*



Mirage_Man said:


> I'm pretty sure the lathes ship dry and Matt fills them when he tests them. If you shoot him an email or give him a call he'll certainly let you one way or the other.


Can you please PM me his email address?

Thanks,
Will


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## precisionworks

*Re: my new lathe ...*



> I'm pretty sure the lathes ship dry


That's my thought also. After Matt fills the head, it's a good idea, on a brand new machine, to run it for a week or so doing whatever you need to do. Then drain the headstock oil & replace with fresh. Every one of the gear contact faces will start wearing in, and all those tiny metal particles will either drop to the bottom (if large enough) or stay in suspension (if really tiny). New oil is the least expensive way to give that machine a long life.



> What type/brand of oil is recommended


There should be a specified viscosity oil in the manual that comes with the lathe, and Matt probably has his own favorite as well. The Mobil DTE series is often the choice, and is available from MSC & other distributors.


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## cmacclel

*Re: my new lathe ...*

I believe you need to use a ISO68 oil which is what the Grizzly used. Also the break in procedure for the Grizzly was to run the lathe in each speed forward for 20 minutes then in reverse for 20 minutes for ALL THE SPEEDS. Then change the oil.

Mirage.....the grizzly lathe was loud even without the gearbox engaged. It was only slightly louder with it engaged.

My new machine is only 2200lbs but when I demoed it at a local company I was amazed as well as the salesman  They had a 12" chuck mounted to the machine cutting hardened steel at 0.075 depth of cut. The machine was wisper quite.

Mac


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## precisionworks

*Re: my new lathe ...*



> the grizzly lathe was loud even without the gearbox engaged


There are lots of sources of vibration in a lathe or in any machine. Some motors, especially those made in China, are not well balanced & produce an awful vibration even when connected to nothing. A motor shop can balance most any motor, but it often costs less to eBay a new replacement motor. Even new off the shelf Baldors, which are dynamically balanced to better than NEMA MG 1-2003 specifications, are not perfect -- which is why Baldor "allows" you to pay $100 extra for precision balancing (motor must be ordered from the factory with that option)

Then there's the V-belt (or belts) that connect the motor to the gearbox on many machines. I've seen many imported belts that looked like they were cut with a dull knife on a dirt floor, and ran from side to side like a drunk sailor. New Gates belts almost always help, and the Fenner PowerTwist Plus is better yet:

http://www.fennerdrives.com/high_performance_composite_vbelts/powertwist_home.asp

Alignment of the sheave on the motor shaft with the input sheave on the gearbox is another area often overlooked, and can reduce vibration. If you spend enough time with the machine, you can make it run better most of the time. The exception is if the gears themselves are not quite perfectly matched, and will howl until they eventually wear in.


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## wquiles

*Re: my new lathe ...*



precisionworks said:


> That's my thought also. After Matt fills the head, it's a good idea, on a brand new machine, to run it for a week or so doing whatever you need to do. Then drain the headstock oil & replace with fresh. Every one of the gear contact faces will start wearing in, and all those tiny metal particles will either drop to the bottom (if large enough) or stay in suspension (if really tiny). New oil is the least expensive way to give that machine a long life.
> 
> There should be a specified viscosity oil in the manual that comes with the lathe, and Matt probably has his own favorite as well. The Mobil DTE series is often the choice, and is available from MSC & other distributors.



I just heard back from Matt - it is indeed Mobil DTE Heavy/Medium circulating oil (about 3 gallons total - he said buying the 5 gallon container might be cheaper), although he said that many other oils will work as well, including Tractor Hydraulic Transmission and Gear Oil. So it looks like the "exact" oil is not as important as having a good/quality lubricant in there :twothumbs

After the initial swap, how often is it recommended a change? I guess it would depend on actual usage, but I would guess that (like a car's transmission/differential) once a year or every other year would make sense, right?

How much fluid are we 

Will


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## precisionworks

*Re: my new lathe ...*



> how often is it recommended to change?


Most schedules I've seen call for annual replacement. You can monitor the color & clarity as being somewhat representative of the level of contamination in the oil. A small magnet, swept across the bottom of the gearbox, is another indicator. If the bottom isn't easy to access, you may want to modify the drain plug and add a rare earth magnet to it -- in a way that it cannot detach

Like a car or motorcycle motor, the surfaces need a few hours to kiss & wear into each other. You may want to go no higher that 800 rpm for the first day of use, which allows surface mating before running at higher speeds.


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## wquiles

Latest tracking information is that my new lathe will be delivered next Monday. That means I have a little bit more time to get prepared 

Will


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## wquiles

I don't have the manual for my lathe yet, but looking at pictures the basic layout is very similar to the Grizzly 12x36 machine, so I have been looking at the Grizzly manual in the meantime. Am I reading this right that the carriage has an extra level called the "Apron/Cross Feed Lever" or "Carriage/Cross Feed Lever" that allows automatic travel powered by the lathe itself? I don't have that in my 8x14, but it sounds very useful!

Will


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## Mirage_Man

wquiles said:


> I don't have the manual for my lathe yet, but looking at pictures the basic layout is very similar to the Grizzly 12x36 machine, so I have been looking at the Grizzly manual in the meantime. Am I reading this right that the carriage has an extra level called the "Apron/Cross Feed Lever" or "Carriage/Cross Feed Lever" that allows automatic travel powered by the lathe itself? I don't have that in my 8x14, but it sounds very useful!
> 
> Will



Oh yes! You've never used that eh? Most lathes have that. I use it for facing and parting off. That's how I part ti at 370rpm and with a feed rate of .012"/rev .


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## cmacclel

wquiles said:


> I don't have the manual for my lathe yet, but looking at pictures the basic layout is very similar to the Grizzly 12x36 machine, so I have been looking at the Grizzly manual in the meantime. Am I reading this right that the carriage has an extra level called the "Apron/Cross Feed Lever" or "Carriage/Cross Feed Lever" that allows automatic travel powered by the lathe itself? I don't have that in my 8x14, but it sounds very useful!
> 
> Will



On the Grizzly when you move the lever down it engages the carriage power feed when you move the lever up it engages the cross slide power feed, very useful to get a uniform finish on the face of a part. I'd be scared to use it for parting aluminum. oo:



Mac


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## wquiles

Brian, Mac, thanks. This feature will be a welcomed bonus since I did not know I was getting that on the new lathe 

Will


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## csshih

*Re: my new lathe ...*



wquiles said:


> Bad news: I got only one week to make room for it - I currently have way too much S#&*T in my garage right now


If the S*! in your garage are flashlights, I'll gladly take em.


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## wquiles

Another question to all of you with these 8-10 fixed speed lathes: have any of you ever considered turning your lathe into a variable speed lathe?

From reading the manual, on these larger lathes such as the PM12x36 that I am getting, you have to stop the lathe before changing speeds. I have to admit that I am "really" spoiled in my current "modified" 8x machine that I can change/adjust speeds on the fly - very convenient, specially when parting, or if I am doing something that is generating some chatter, etc.

The new PM12x36 is just using a plain 1.5 or 2HP AC motor at a fixed speed (1750 RPM), but I still have one additional 2HP KB controller like I used on the 8x machine, and would only need to find a new DC motor on Ebay.

I am not saying that I already have plans to mess with a lathe that has not even arrived, but is this something others do as well, or are there any disadvantages to doing so?

Will


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## precisionworks

> The new PM12x36 is just using a plain 1.5 or 2HP AC motor at a fixed speed


Most manual lathes are made like that, but reconfiguring to variable speed shouldn't be a big deal ... especially after what you've done to the HF machine.

You can refit with a DC motor & controller, but I believe you'll be more satisfied with an AC Sensorless Vector Drive (VFD). The biggest advantage to the DC drive is small physical size, but you won't have a size limitation on the PM lathe. The best bang for the buck, today, is a 3 hp VFD & motor. I've installed three of these 3 hp drives (on my Delta belt/disc machine, Burr King 482, and wire wheel machine) running identical Baldor M3611T motors. Installation involves only removing the factory motor, fabricating a transition plate for the new motor, and wiring the drive -- about a one day job.


*Burr King transition plate*







*3 hp Baldor mounted on Burr King (guard removed for photo)*







*AC Tech SMVector Drive on wire brush machine






Full view of machine






*My shop has 240 volt, single phase, and the VFD converts that to 240 volt 3 phase to control the 3 phase motor (required for all VFD applications). I believe that setup would work very well for your lathe ... you'll still need to change gears to get to the approximate speed you want, and the VFD can then take that speed down as low as 2%. If you have the machine in back gear at 300 rpm, the VFD allows control down to 6 rpm


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## wquiles

Since I have 220V single phase already, for a 3HP setup, I would need something like this then?

controller:
http://cgi.ebay.com/AC-Tech-SMVector-3-HP-Variable-Frequency-Drive-VFD_W0QQitemZ350114080886QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?_trksid=p3286.m20.l1116

motor:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&item=130159849452


Will


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## Alan B

wquiles said:


> Since I have 220V single phase already, for a 3HP setup, I would need something like this then?
> 
> controller:
> http://cgi.ebay.com/AC-Tech-SMVecto...ptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?_trksid=p3286.m20.l1116
> 
> motor:
> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&item=130159849452
> 
> 
> Will


 
Will, I did the DC motor/controller on my G0516 Lathe, but I would do the AC VFD next time. The motors are sealed and can generally be directly bolt-up (same frame etc) to the lathe. The AC motors will outlast the DC motors as well, and the controllers have computer interfaces for when you need that. :naughty:

-- Alan


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## precisionworks

Will,

The seller on eBay is really high on price ... Wolf Automation sells the identical drive for $255.78, free shipping through the end of December.

http://www.wolfautomation.com/Configure2.aspx?ProductID=19500&x=84&y=21

You may also want to consider the totally sealed drive, which is dustproof, coolant proof, chip proof, ect. $90 more, but bulletproof, $347.13

http://www.wolfautomation.com/Configure2.aspx?ProductID=22376&x=31&y=21

That is the exact motor, but you can usually buy them brand new for around $100 ... one closed last nite for $100 + $22 shipping, and I nearly bought it (for the mill project).


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## Mirage_Man

My new machine is 3-phase. So I had to get either a VFD or Rotary phase converter. I considered using a VFD however due to the fact that the lathe would have to have been totally re-wired I decided to go with a Rotary Phase converter instead. 

Not that the above has anything to do with your situation. I just wanted to add another place for VFD's.

http://www.driveswarehouse.com/Drives/AC+Drives/?gclid=CNHpm__v2ZcCFQazsgodwk2RDA


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## wquiles

Thank you guys. If I do go variable speed, I am definitely going the AC motor VFD route  (it is amazing how much you guys HELP me spend even more money :devil: )

By the way, according to the tracking information, the lathe is currently scheduled for Monday delivery - I guess we can call it a late Christmas present to myself :twothumbs

I did some re-arranging of the garage today, and by tomorrow or Friday I will have the space for the new lathe ready. 

Then I have to figure out where to rent a 2Ton engine hoist for Monday's delivery - any ideas? I could always buy a new one on HF for $130+tax, but then I would need to turn around and sell it right away as I don't have any space left to store anything like that.

Will


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## Mirage_Man

wquiles said:


> Then I have to figure out where to rent a 2Ton engine hoist for Monday's delivery - any ideas? I could always buy a new one on HF for $130+tax, but then I would need to turn around and sell it right away as I don't have any space left to store anything like that.
> 
> Will



Check Craig's list in your area. You might find a cheap one to buy or buy the HF and sell it there.


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## Alan B

I believe you can rent engine hoists at the usual rental places.

-- Alan


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## precisionworks

> I have to figure out where to rent a 2Ton engine hoist


It's worth paying the extra charge for liftgate service, unless you have a nearby friend with a forklift. That allows the machine to get lowered to ground level without any scary moments. Once she's down, you can easily use "pipe rollers" to get it to the desired location (as long as the path is smooth, hard, and fairly level from truck to shop). 1" black iron pipe, available at larger hardware stores like Ace and True Value, is inexpensive & easily cut to the length you need. The photo below shows the general idea. If there's *any *up or down slope, use a rope & pulleys or a come-a-long as a brake.






Notice that angle iron (looks like 2x2x1/4") is slipped under each end of the pallet & screwed to the pallet - you can also use longer lengths if you need to put the angle under the "long side" of the pallet to get through a narrow door. Heavy plywood also works in place of 2x lumber, but you'll need at least 2 sheets of 3/4" ply if you go that route.

Go slow, invite all your friends over to help (tell them you're having a party, tell them about the kegs of beer, forget to mention the lathe)

An engine hoist is a risky way to move any heavy machine, as they have tiny wheels & a small footprint. With the pipe rollers, the machine is never more than 1" above ground level.


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## saabluster

wquiles said:


> Then I have to figure out where to rent a 2Ton engine hoist for Monday's delivery - any ideas?


I have one you can borrow. We only live five minutes apart so it shouldn't be too difficult to get it there.


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## wquiles

precisionworks said:


> It's worth paying the extra charge for liftgate service, unless you have a nearby friend with a forklift. That allows the machine to get lowered to ground level without any scary moments. Once she's down, you can easily use "pipe rollers" to get it to the desired location (as long as the path is smooth, hard, and fairly level from truck to shop). 1" black iron pipe, available at larger hardware stores like Ace and True Value, is inexpensive & easily cut to the length you need. The photo below shows the general idea. If there's *any *up or down slope, use a rope & pulleys or a come-a-long as a brake.
> 
> (snip pic)
> 
> Notice that angle iron (looks like 2x2x1/4") is slipped under each end of the pallet & screwed to the pallet - you can also use longer lengths if you need to put the angle under the "long side" of the pallet to get through a narrow door. Heavy plywood also works in place of 2x lumber, but you'll need at least 2 sheets of 3/4" ply if you go that route.
> 
> Go slow, invite all your friends over to help (tell them you're having a party, tell them about the kegs of beer, forget to mention the lathe)
> 
> An engine hoist is a risky way to move any heavy machine, as they have tiny wheels & a small footprint. With the pipe rollers, the machine is never more than 1" above ground level.



I did pay extra for the lift-gate service, but my driveway is at a slight incline, so I don't know how the driver will manage to get it close enough. Here is a photo of my house back when we first bought it, so that you can see what I mean:





Will


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## wquiles

saabluster said:


> I have one you can borrow. We only live five minutes apart so it shouldn't be too difficult to get it there.



Oh yes, that would be outstanding - thanks much for the offer.

I just sent you a PM with my phone number so that we can connect ASAP. According to the shipping company, the lathe is already in Dallas, so although scheduled for delivery on Monday, they could deliver tomorrow Fri or even on Sat 

Will


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## precisionworks

> I don't know how the driver will manage to get it close enough


Any driver worth his CDL will be able to back up so the back door/liftgate is right in front of whichever garage door your prefer. Most will just smile & back in. If he does gripe, remind him how much extra you paid for liftgate service

From there, it should be easy to push the palletized machine over pipe rollers. I'd bet your concrete is smooth, so you won't even need boards or plywood. Just a few friends to help control the speed, as it will start moving on even the slightest incline.


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## wquiles

precisionworks said:


> Any driver worth his CDL will be able to back up so the back door/liftgate is right in front of whichever garage door your prefer. Most will just smile & back in. If he does gripe, remind him how much extra you paid for liftgate service
> 
> From there, it should be easy to push the palletized machine over pipe rollers. I'd bet your concrete is smooth, so you won't even need boards or plywood. Just a few friends to help control the speed, as it will start moving on even the slightest incline.



Gotcha - thanks 

Will


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## wquiles

By the way, I ordered some neoprene leveling feet (for the right weight), but I don;t have a machinist level. From what I have been reading, having the lathe level is nice, but the really critical part is having no twist on the ways. I am also reading that this adjustment is good to check again a few days later as the lathe will settle some. Would my simple/basic woodworking level be good enough for that?

The leveling feet will adjust the lathe/stand combo, but I guess I would have to shim the lathe to the base as well, right? Any pointers as to the proper order for good alignment?

Will


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## Mirage_Man

wquiles said:


> By the way, I ordered some neoprene leveling feet (for the right weight), but I don;t have a machinist level. From what I have been reading, having the lathe level is nice, but the really critical part is having no twist on the ways. I am also reading that this adjustment is good to check again a few days later as the lathe will settle some. Would my simple/basic woodworking level be good enough for that?
> 
> The leveling feet will adjust the lathe/stand combo, but I guess I would have to shim the lathe to the base as well, right? Any pointers as to the proper order for good alignment?
> 
> Will



This was discussed in my new lathe thread. Here's how I did mine.


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## wquiles

Mirage_Man said:


> This was discussed in my new lathe thread. Here's how I did mine.



Gotcha - I guess the "normal" level will have to do now, while I buy/borrow a "real" level 

Now, I still have a question in terms of the order of things to level:
- Mount lathe to stand and level the whole as a single unit

or

- Mount and level the base, then mount the lathe, and shim the lathe to the base until the lathe is level.

Will


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## precisionworks

I set mine up similar to Brian's, with shop made spacers or risers to bring the center height up to a comfortable range. The square tube resting on top of the riser gives the machine a wider footprint so out of balance parts are more easily turned.



> I still have a question in terms of the order of things to level...


Not sure if there is a best way. As long as both ends of the bed are in the same plane, the machine will turn & bore straight.



> good to check again a few days later


I get the master level out whenever something critical needs to be turned or bored. The most picky jobs in my shop involve electric motor bearing fits. Take a bearing with a 25mm bore (0.9843). Minimum shaft size is 0.9844, maximum shaft size is 0.9847. When you have only three tenths to play with, you cannot afford any taper at all.

Here's a handy chart if you do bearing fits: http://www.darbyelectric.com/radial_ball_bearing.html


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## cmacclel

wquiles said:


> Gotcha - I guess the "normal" level will have to do now, while I buy/borrow a "real" level
> 
> Now, I still have a question in terms of the order of things to level:
> - Mount lathe to stand and level the whole as a single unit
> 
> or
> 
> - Mount and level the base, then mount the lathe, and shim the lathe to the base until the lathe is level.
> 
> 
> 
> Will


 

I just mounted the lathe to the stand then leveled the lathe with a cheap 2 and 4 foot level. It wasn't perfect but close and the Grizzly was pretty darn accurate. I could hold a 0.001 with it.

My lathe liftgate experience has been a SCARY ONE. Seems the old beat up trucks around here that have been delivering the Grizzly's have worn out liftgates. When lifting or lowering the lathe they angle downward making me almost crap my pants. The truck that picked up my first grizzly was the worst. We had to ship the back of the pallet with 2x4's in order to keep the lathe from tipping backwards. I though it was going over for sure. 

Will that house looks AWESOME!!!

Mac


----------



## Anglepoise

wquiles said:


> From what I have been reading, having the lathe level is nice, but the really critical part is having no twist on the ways.
> 
> Will



You are correct. Not having any twist is the trick. Your adjustable feet is worth doing. Try to get them adjusted so the cabinet weight is evenly distributed on each foot so one side wont 'sag' over time.

Now the lathe probably has some adjustments where it bolts to the cabinet. This is important. You do NOT set your final level with the 4 adjustable cabinet feet. You will find 2 hold down bolts where the tail stock end of the actual lathe attaches to the cabinet. Inside the cabinet you will have 2 adjustable perches and these are your adjustments for the lathe to cabinet.
...And this is where you will make your final adjustments for 'no twist'

My own set up is a little different than normal. For my final check, my spirit level is rested on the cross slide and I carefully traverse the carriage back and forth while watching the bubble. There should be no movement of the bubble from headstock to tailstock. No bubble movement translates to no twist. A machinists level is a good investment.


----------



## precisionworks

Grizzly has good prices on their levels:

http://grizzly.amazonwebstore.com/G...froogle&utm_medium=organic&utm_source=froogle

Wholesale Tool offers a near identical version:

http://www.wttool.com/product-exec/product_id/6309?utm_medium=cpc&utm_source=froog

Either one should gives years of service ... as long as you don't drop it:shakehead


----------



## wquiles

Thanks much David 

Are these "too cheap", or would one of these from Ebay be good for the job:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&item=270321196084


Will


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## precisionworks

We posted at the same time ... the eBay level would be another good choice.

Way back when I bought mine, in the dark days before the internet, $150 was about as low as you could find. Mine is Polish made, beautifully machined, and came in a nice wooden case. For half the money, I could live without the wooden case.


----------



## Mirage_Man

precisionworks said:


> \
> 
> Wholesale Tool offers a near identical version:
> 
> http://www.wttool.com/product-exec/product_id/6309?utm_medium=cpc&utm_source=froog



That's the one I got.


----------



## Anglepoise

wquiles said:


> Thanks much David
> 
> Are these "too cheap", or would one of these from Ebay be good for the job:
> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&item=270321196084
> 
> 
> Will



I have absolutely no idea how one evaluates a 'level' for accuracy and repeatability and would be most interested in knowing. Like precisionworks, I have had mine for quite a while and believe it was made in England by Moore and Wright.


----------



## cmacclel

Anglepoise said:


> I have absolutely no idea how one evaluates a 'level' for accuracy and repeatability and would be most interested in knowing. Like precisionworks, I have had mine for quite a while and believe it was made in England by Moore and Wright.


 

You would have to send the level out to be calibrated. All of out tools are calibrated due to the ISO qualification requirements.

You could send the level to me and I will compare it to a calibrated level if anyone would like.

Mac


----------



## DonShock

Anglepoise said:


> I have absolutely no idea how one evaluates a 'level' for accuracy and repeatability and would be most interested in knowing. Like precisionworks, I have had mine for quite a while and believe it was made in England by Moore and Wright.


You can do a gross check for accuracy of a bubble level using any level surface. Find a surface that indicates level. Note the position of the bubble as closely as you can. Then spin the level 180 degrees so the the opposite ends of the level are along the surface the level is on. If the level is accurate, the bubble should remain in the same position reletive to the factory marks. Even if the surface is slightly out of level, if the level is accurate the bubble will shift to the opposite side by the same amount as you spin the level.


----------



## Aircraft800

Will ,

You could always ask the local CPF members to help 

I'm sure you could lure a few with a case of beer or so :twothumbs

I've got a 4' carpenters level if it will help, not any machining accuracy though.


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## precisionworks

Some levels are available with a NIST cert at extra charge. If you work in an ISO approved facility, your gages must all have a NIST cert. Starrett, Brown & Sharpe, Mitu, etc., all offer this service. Certified instruments are usually kept in the Calibration Lab in a factory, where they can be used to check non-cert gages. You'll never see one used on the shop floor.

Master Precision Levels use a ground and graduated main vial of 10 second accuracy - one division equals .0005" per foot. Assuming that you have a 12" level, shim under one end or the other until the bubble is readable - although it does not need to be in the absolute center. Then place a .0005" shim under one end, the bubble should move 1.0 divisions. A .0010" shim will move the bubble two divisions, while a .00025" shim will move the bubble only one half division. Remove the shim to make sure the bubble returns to the first position, reinsert to verify repeatibility. The bubble should repeat to ±1/5 division.

The first two tests were for sensitivity & repeatability. To test for accuracy, do exactly what DonShock said, which is a 180 degree rotation. The bubble should repeat to ±1/5 division.

Starrett makes one of the nicer levels, their Model 199Z. For most users, $550 is a stretch. The companies uses seasoned & stress relieved castings. These are precision ground & then hand scraped. The imported levels certainly lack some of that, but they are more than adequate for the job at hand.


----------



## wquiles

By the way, thanks to forum member *saabluster* I now have a temporary engine hoist sitting in my garage, waiting for the lathe to arrive - thanks much Michael :twothumbs

As to the level, I have a 4-5 foot premium Al woodworking level, and this will have to do for the initial setup, but I will be ordering the machinist level from Wholesale later tonight 

Will


----------



## wquiles

And by the way, you should know that my 8x has been sold, to another forum member who lives here in Texas: *DonShock* :thumbsup: 

I feel he got a good deal, and if Don does not mind, I can post the pictures of everything Don is getting :naughty:

Will


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## wquiles

OK, here is that Don just bought from me:

- Lathe with DC Motor, Controller, and Pad/switches, and Wedge-type Quick Change Tool post (lathe has less than 10 months of use):






- (left) Tailstock adapter for a large J3T chuck (not needed, but if you ever want to fit a larger, stronger chuck, you have the adapter already
- (right) Tailstock MT2 end (for centering an holding longer pieces






This is how they go:











- Shumatech DRO-350L with both scales/readouts, and optional spindle RPM readout sensor (displays spindle speed on Z2 display)






- Numerous cutting tools. In fact, you have everything you could need, except for a tool to do internal threading - I am keeping mine, but you can buy from Enco, MSC, etc., or you can make your own (I can show you if you buy it and come in person to pick up).






- This is the fitted mounting plate for my 6" chuck. It already fits the spindle perfectly, so you can use it to install a larger chuck in your machine if you ever wanted to (like a 5" or 6").











- Grooving tool with extra carbide bits. Also included are two bits for external threading.






- 3 boring bars, in several sizes (smallest is like 3/16", and the largest is 1/2"). I am including extra carbide bits for each bar. The two smallest bars are the premium solid-carbide types. One of them, the smallest one, rides in a completely hand made custom holder made for this bar. I am also including an extra milling bit (the gold colored one) which is supper for making flush boring jobs (like then enlarging an existing hole in a heat sink)
















- knurling tool and additional tool holders:






- Full set of 5 carbide tipped boring tools (row on top), with carbide bits already installed:






- individual carbide tipped cutting tools in various sizes (you put then in the extra holders that I am including):






- Note that many of the holders have already been milled so that you can install/use larger tooling 






- HSS 1/2" parting tool with its special holder:






- And of course the original tool kit with all of the extra gears and original pieces:






Plus, since Don is picking up the lathe in person, I will give him a couple hour hands-on "training" on his new lathe 

Will


----------



## DonShock

Thanks to Will for this setup! I know it's gonna be great once I get my hands on it. I have been following all the neat mods Will has been doing to trick this lathe out. Not only was the price great, the offer of a couple hours hands on training went above and beyond the call. It's guys like Will that make CPF my number one web hangout even when I'm not doing active modding or other light related activities.


----------



## KC2IXE

precisionworks said:


> Some levels are available with a NIST cert at extra charge. If you work in an ISO approved facility, your gages must all have a NIST cert. Starrett, Brown & Sharpe, Mitu, etc., all offer this service. Certified instruments are usually kept in the Calibration Lab in a factory, where they can be used to check non-cert gages. You'll never see one used on the shop floor.
> 
> ...snip....




Pretty much - I have seen (in one shop) an NIST calibrated item on the floor, but that was because we could not lose the one generation of accuracy - yes, we paid for NIST calibration of working standards

Other funny story - what happens when YOU happen to make the most accurate instrament in a particular field - the one that the NIST uses as the standard? How do you calibrate THAT? I got to find out - the same company, every few years, would get an order for a standard that was the same accuracy as the unit at the NIST! It was fun, because to check the unit, you had to go back to "first principals" and NOT use the common "check against a unit that is at least 10x as accurate"

These were, btw "syncro/resolver standards" - they simulated either (your choice) a syncro or resolver, if I remember correctly (and I probably don't) they went to the .0001 degree

The way we did that unit was special (even for us) transformers - 1000s of turns on the secondary, tapped every X turns, and a nice rotary switch. The beauty was, if you were getting signal, it was RIGHT, nothing to drift, noting to adjust (post mfg - when making the transformers, we would remove turns as needed - they were always made with too many turns - get it right, pot the transformer - retest

Testing to first principals was - feed in your reference signal - IIRK 28 or 115 volts, or both (not at same time), depending, at 400Hz (or 60Hz - iteresting that 60Hz models could be used at 400hz, but not the other way), and measure the 3 ouputs for syncro - sine, sine +120, sine +240 - then repeat for resolver - sine, sine + 90 (yes folks - that is '2 phase - the stuff into your house is 1 phase, center tapped - true 2 phase - aka quadrature, can be changed to 3 phase, and visa/versa via a Scott-T transformer)


----------



## Anglepoise

Thanks Guys for explaining how to check accuracy of a 'level'.
Will give it a try when the snow melts and I can get to my garage.


----------



## gadget_lover

It looks like that's a wonderful deal that Will is giving. All the extras are worth a small fortune in dollars and many man weeks in time.

I like that new lathe. Wish I had room. And Time. 

Daniel


----------



## precisionworks

Not to get way OT, but it's interesting to compare a carpenter's level to a master precision level. Both use a liquid filled vial containing an air bubble that is the width of one graduation. The biggest difference in the vials is that the carpenter's level vial is almost straight, having only the slightest curvature. The precision level vial has a noticeable arc, which is why it takes only half a thousandth of an inch (12" level) to move one graduation.

An interesting discussion here, if you want to read more:

http://www.leveldevelopments.com/sensitivity-explained.htm


----------



## wquiles

gadget_lover said:


> It looks like that's a wonderful deal that Will is giving. All the extras are worth a small fortune in dollars and many man weeks in time.
> 
> I like that new lathe. Wish I had room. And Time.
> 
> Daniel


Thanks Daniel. This is an even better deal than the Cummins I sold earlier, but once again it found a new home to another forum member. In fact, you and several others here in the forum tough me a lot, so I will be "passing it forward" as much as I can to Don when he comes to pick up the lathe next weekend 




precisionworks said:


> Not to get way OT, but it's interesting to compare a carpenter's level to a master precision level. Both use a liquid filled vial containing an air bubble that is the width of one graduation. The biggest difference in the vials is that the carpenter's level vial is almost straight, having only the slightest curvature. The precision level vial has a noticeable arc, which is why it takes only half a thousandth of an inch (12" level) to move one graduation.
> 
> An interesting discussion here, if you want to read more:
> 
> http://www.leveldevelopments.com/sensitivity-explained.htm



Related question: Say I find an "used" Starrett 199 level - how do I "calibrate" it or "adjust" it so that it is working fine again. Are there built-in adjustments in the Starrett 199 level that I can do, or does it have to be sent somewhere for adjustment/calibration?

Will


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## precisionworks

> Are there built-in adjustments in the Starrett 199 level that I can do, or does it have to be sent somewhere


You can calibrate it in your shop IF you have another precision level of known accuracy. Or it can be sent to Starrett for recalibration. They are awfully tough, and short of a broken vial (which can be user replaced), or a trip to a concrete floor, they should retain correct calibration.


----------



## wquiles

By the way, this is a really good thread in the PM site about this same topic, including discussion about making your own, or just using the precision vial by itself:
http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net/showthread.php?t=28541&page=6

Here is a really good explanation of what the sensitivity numbers mean:
http://www.leveldevelopments.com/sensitivity-explained.htm

By some basic math (please correct me here), 0.0005" / 12" is about:

C= 2* PI * R, with R=12"
C = 62.83" in circunference

So detecting a 0.0005" travel on a circle that big, means a very small angle:

angle in deg / 360 = 0.0005" / 62.83"

so the angle traveled is = 0.00286 degrees !!!

No wonder these machinist levels are leagues more accurate than the wood working levels 

Will


----------



## wquiles

No lathe today - or is it "no soup for you!" 

After a half-day waiting without hearing from them (remember the web site said they would deliver today!), I decided to call them up. The num nuts were supposed to call me to schedule to deliver, but they were expecting me to call them :mecry:

Scheduled now for tomorrow from 11AM-2PM. Maybe second time is a charm? At least they verified that it is for home delivery, so they "should" come prepared with at a minimum a lift gate 

Will


----------



## precisionworks

> so they "should" come prepared with at a minimum a lift gate


One thing nice about lift gate service, the trailer is usually a 32' or 36' "pup" trailer. I've never seen a lift gate on a 53' road trailer. The 32' or 36' is much easier for the driver to back up, especially when they don't have an area the size of Wal Mart to work with


----------



## Alan B

Will,

Does this lathe have enough clearance to chuck a D [email protected]?

What other machines did you consider when choosing this lathe, and what made the choice for you?

I have a Grizzly G0516 and will be upgrading at some point in the hopefully near future. I would like to be able to chuck D [email protected] for some reason, I don't yet know why. 

Thanks for your comments,

-- Alan


----------



## wquiles

Alan B said:


> Will,
> 
> Does this lathe have enough clearance to chuck a D [email protected]?
> 
> What other machines did you consider when choosing this lathe, and what made the choice for you?
> 
> I have a Grizzly G0516 and will be upgrading at some point in the hopefully near future. I would like to be able to chuck D [email protected] for some reason, I don't yet know why.
> 
> Thanks for your comments,
> 
> -- Alan



Honestly I don't know yet. The description page of the lathe lists the spindle bore at 1 1/2 ", while my Mitutoyo calipers give me a reading on between 1.550" and 1.549" on 4-5 "D" bodies that I just tried, so they "might" fit. If I am that close, I will probably try to take off about 60 mils from the first few inches of the spindle (chuck side), just to make sure I can accommodate them if/when I have to.

I looked at various units, but it was down the Grizzly gunsmith model (G4003G) and this PM12x36:

PM12x36:
http://www.machinetoolonline.com/PM1236.html

Grizzly:
http://http://grizzly.com/products/Gunsmith-s-Bench-Top-Lathe-with-Stand/G4003G

In the end it came to these factors:
- the PM machine comes a little bit more fully loaded/accessories and with options I wanted, like the built-in coolant system, and the foot brake
- the PM has a fully enclosed threading gear box (should be quieter)
- Mac had several key problems with his machine (cracked frame, noisy gear box)
- Brian (MirageMan) has nothing but praises about Matt (the seller of the PM lathes)
- Matt gave me a great deal on the DRO, including installation

I will let you know more tomorrow, hopefully after 2PM. I will try to take a "few" pictures :devil:

Will


----------



## Alan B

Frustrating, waiting another day. When my first lathe arrived in mid December a couple of years ago I was looking forward and preparing to use it during the 2 week Christmas break that my company takes each year. After a couple of minutes of motor runtime it started blowing fuses and the motor would not start. Between returning it for repair and eventually replacement I had no lathe for weeks and completely missed the vacation time. I ended up with a treadmill motor and variable speed controller which I really enjoy, and the second new replacement motor from Grizzly is still in the box.

Hope yours comes soon, and in great condition...

-- Alan


----------



## wquiles

Alan B said:


> Frustrating, waiting another day. When my first lathe arrived in mid December a couple of years ago I was looking forward and preparing to use it during the 2 week Christmas break that my company takes each year. After a couple of minutes of motor runtime it started blowing fuses and the motor would not start. Between returning it for repair and eventually replacement I had no lathe for weeks and completely missed the vacation time. I ended up with a treadmill motor and variable speed controller which I really enjoy, and the second new replacement motor from Grizzly is still in the box.
> 
> Hope yours comes soon, and in great condition...
> 
> -- Alan



Thanks Alan. It has been tough, but not as much waiting as it was for Mac and Brian - they waited much longer to get their respective machines.

Like you I was hoping to use last week and this week to get everything ready with the new machine, but even though the machine arrived in Dallas last Wed, the local company was closed until today, so I sorta-lost one of my two weeks of vacation just waiting.

Sorry to hear about your earlier motor problems. At least the DC motor and variable speed was something positive - that was a great upgrade on my HF 8x14 machine. I am even "considering" variable speed setup in my 12x36 lathe as well, but I have to first "get to know" my new lathe before I start messing with it 

Will


----------



## wquiles

*Re: my new lathe ... Precision Matthews 12x36 ... arrived!*

The lathe is here!

Not a trailer, but a big truck (my lathe was the only thing in the truck). The single delivery guy and I pushed it up my driveway - it was not bad at all:







like somebody here before, that lift gate was very tilted - scary!






there was some superficial damage to the outer shell, but no damage internally:
















here is the current "target":






The bases are actually made of steel and look pretty beefy:


























after getting more of the case removed, we can see the actual machine (of course dirty and full of the packing grease, but it definitely has "potential"):





















kit of tools/parts (6" chuck already installed, the 8" chuck and the 10" face plate are there as well):






getting ready to assemble the base (the adjustable feet arrive later today, which will be great since I want to raise it some as well):











The digital readout display unit (scales/guides already installed):











Taking a break for lunch - more work and more photos later 

Will


----------



## precisionworks

COOOOOOOOOL!!!!!!!!!!!!

The base cabinets are the nicest I've seen, comparable to those on my South Bend. Most imported bases will sway in the breeze, but yours look substantial

A rough guide to proper center height (for you only) is the distance from the floor to your forearm, with your forearm held horizontally. It may seem tall, and it's almost always taller than any factory stand, but your back will never ache.


----------



## tx101

Cant wait until you "christen" your new lathe :twothumbs


----------



## Mirage_Man

Awesome. How long before you're up and running?

Does a D [email protected] body fit inside the spindle?

Just a little tip about the quick change gear box. You can change the feed gears while running but not the speed gears. In fact it's mucho easier to change the feeds while it's running.


----------



## wquiles

The mounting/leveling feet came today as expected - each one is rated to 1000 pounds (1/2" screw):
















Since the bolts are so long, this is the minimum height increase (about 3 and 1/2" which is nearly perfect!):






I then installed the foot brake:






Here I am leveling the base using my good Al woodworking level (my used Starrett 199 does not arrive until next week):
















Here I am almost ready to start the "fun" part of lifting and moving the late:






Will


----------



## wquiles

Mirage_Man said:


> Awesome. How long before you're up and running?
> 
> Does a D [email protected] body fit inside the spindle?
> 
> Just a little tip about the quick change gear box. You can change the feed gears while running but not the speed gears. In fact it's mucho easier to change the feeds while it's running.



I think I might be OK. Let the pictures speak for themselves 

This is a standard 3D Mag:






this is as far as it will go:






seen from above:






I bet that if I touch a little that part of the spindle (without the chuck and mounting plate for better access of course) with a sharp carbide boring bar, I might be able to make it go even deeper, but it looks like for now this is pretty darn good :devil:

Will


----------



## cmacclel

Will you should be fine! 

Cool I hope you have her up and running soon. I played with coolant today and let me say it SUCKS  Freaking MESS MAKER! It took me 1/2 hour to clean the machine making sure I got it all wiped up  I guess it stinks to be anal like myself 

Mac


----------



## Mirage_Man

cmacclel said:


> I played with coolant today and let me say it SUCKS  Freaking MESS MAKER! It took me 1/2 hour to clean the machine making sure I got it all wiped up  I guess it stinks to be anal like myself
> 
> Mac



LOL did you get any on you? That's why I want a totally enclosed rig some day.


----------



## cmacclel

Mirage_Man said:


> LOL did you get any on you? That's why I want a totally enclosed rig some day.


 

Nope none on me. But now my whole shop smells like Trim E206  I mixed it at 8% so it's strong. I didn't use the factory coolant tank. I removed the pump from the left pedastal and put it in a 31 quart plastic container directly under the chip pan so I can easily clean the way oil out. My machine oils itself for 15 seconds every hour of operation so way oil is everywhere!

Mac


----------



## precisionworks

I run synthetic on both the band saw & the cold saw ... no rusting problems, and it never gets wiped off. If it bothers you badly, spray the machine down with WD-40 or some other water displacing aerosol, especially the chuck, the ways, and the carriage.

I spray the lathe with WD-40 after every use, even though there's no flood on the machine. It isn't lubricant, but it is a good, short term rust preventive.


----------



## wquiles

precisionworks said:


> I run synthetic on both the band saw & the cold saw ...


What specific brand/type do you use?

Will


----------



## precisionworks

I bought the last pail on eBay, about $100 to make 100 (mixed) gallons. Works well, looks pretty because of the blue color

http://cgi.ebay.com/5-Gal-CIMTECH-9...ptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?_trksid=p3286.m20.l1116


----------



## Anglepoise

For amateur use on my home lathe, I have kept away from coolant. My tank has never seen use since new. 

And it never will be. 

I use a brush or squirt / drip bottle. I use different fluids depending on 
what I am turning. Most of what I do is Aluminum and a 75% Kerosene 
25% baby oil works perfectly for this metal.

Yes I have to go a little slower, especially in Ti, but the benefits of not using flood coolant far out way using it. No smell and clothes that don't stink up the house. 

I suppose it all boils down to personal preference.


I just remembered, and looked it up. 
Page A87 of the Sandvik metal cutting guide has a whole page on why one should NOT use coolant with modern inserts.


----------



## cmacclel

precisionworks said:


> I bought the last pail on eBay, about $100 to make 100 (mixed) gallons. Works well, looks pretty because of the blue color
> 
> http://cgi.ebay.com/5-Gal-CIMTECH-9...ptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?_trksid=p3286.m20.l1116


 
One of the machinists at work switched from TRIM SOL to the Cimcool in that auction and it took all the purdy blue paint of his Kurt Vise 

Mac


----------



## precisionworks

> No smell and clothes that don't stink up the house.


Synthetics, mixed with 90% to 95% water, have no smell & never get rancid. 



> it took all the purdy blue paint of his Kurt Vise


That's strange, as it hasn't done anything to either the band saw (which has not much paint to start with) or the Wilton Willy cold saw, which still looks like new. But I've never used it on the mill, so none has ever gotten on my Kurt.


----------



## wquiles

I have had a bad head cold for the last couple of days, so very little progress done. However, my neighbor came yesterday and we got the lathe on the stand!!!

Here we are getting ready and we got the lathe strapped and on the air, using the manual's recommended method and lift point (not shown in these pics is that we added a second strap for extra safety):












here we got it on the stand (which we had to raise to clear the feet of the joist):






and here it is in position, with all 6 mounting bolts in place (not tight yet):











Right now the stand is too high, so I need to lower it a couple of inches, and start the "rough" balancing until my used Master Precision Level (Starrett 199) arrives some time next week. I was going to order the import model for $80-90, but found a good Starrett on Ebay and decided to go with it instead. As some of you already stated, having a good level is really an investment. I am not feeling great today so I just did some cleaning and re-arranging other stuff around the new lathe - basically making the shop more like an organized shop again 

I did install the DRO display unit last night, and tried it out (I will post some pictures soon). I am used the the "simpler" Shumatech DRO, and although this DRO is not a Newwall/Anilam, this thing is definitely more professional in every way. The scales are fully enclosed, and very smooth. This DRO is definitely some import brand (SINO, model SDS6-2V), but it is fully configurable, can store 200 tools, has lots of built-in arithmetic functions, and all kinds of conversions, modes, etc - still need to read and experiment more to learn how to fully utilize it, but so far it looks like it was a very good buy, and I would pick it again as a good bang/buck alternative. My Shumatech does display 3 decimal points, and then it has a "dot" that signals 1/2 of a mill, so that you have some sort of indication past 3 digits - this DRO can display in inches at either 4 of 5 decimals points! (I left it 4 decimals points since I can't move the hand wheels that precisely anyway).

If I do feel a little bit better tomorrow, I will be going to Lowes to get the necessary 220V cord and AC plug so that I can power the machine to start doing the initial burn-in of the gears as the manual recommends, so tomorrow I hope to power it for the first time!

Will


----------



## precisionworks

Lookin good, Will

The way the motor is mounted, it would be a piece of cake to replace it with a larger motor & VFD control. The added benefit to that conversion is that by relocating the motor, you can add vibration isolation to the motor mount.


----------



## wquiles

precisionworks said:


> Lookin good, Will
> 
> The way the motor is mounted, it would be a piece of cake to replace it with a larger motor & VFD control. The added benefit to that conversion is that by relocating the motor, you can add vibration isolation to the motor mount.



In fact, it was much due to your advice that I ended up with the lathe were it stands. Thanks to you I basically planned ahead - whether or not I do the VFD, I wanted flexibility. My initial location would have been very challenging to attempt the VFD control, so I decided for this location as it allows me complete access all around the machine 

Will


----------



## StrikerDown

Will,

Congratulations, that is a beautiful piece of hardware. :twothumbs

I had pretty much decided I was going to try to get the Grizzly G4003G... til seeing yours. :thinking:

Having read several of your posts it seems that you have most likely done a lot of homework here so I have a question.

Does this beast let you dial up different threads without a change gear swap?

How about the Grizz?

One of your reasons for choosing the Matthews was the gearbox is that right? Is the only difference noise?

Thanks for any help. I thought I had made up my mind!

Last night/this morning while waiting for the ball to drop the link I had to the Grizzly catalog quit working. I noticed this a couple minutes after midnight! I had to go back to Grizzly’s home page where I found that they updated the website promptly around midnight with the new 2009 catalog and lo... the G4003G is now $200 higher! So I have even less incentive to pick their lathe.


Ray


----------



## SafetyBob

I was looking at that lathe too. I believe it does have a "real" gearbox. 

My very, very old ancient lathe has a gear box too. I was told 16 years ago when I got my old lathe from a machinist to always get a lathe with a gear box on it if you could afford it. I spent really good cash on this old lathe (3,000) and for roughly 1,000 more I could have had a new lathe at the time. The lathe I want now is roughly 7 to 8 thousand. I like my old lathe but would like to have a new one now that my skills are much better and I am ready to do extreamely nice work vs. just making something OK. 

Key point here is, if you can afford it, get a lathe with a gear box and as nice as you can with all the features you can afford with a DRO being on top of the list, particularly if you have already used a lathe for awhile (I don't care how big or how nice), the DRO will add mountains to usability and speed of use. 

Bob E.


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## precisionworks

> the DRO will add mountains to usability and speed of use.


+1

A DRO, on either the lathe or mill, eliminates lots of high dollar mistakes. It will pay for itself in that area alone.

It's great that the PM machine is already set up for flood coolant. You can work around that with a squirt bottle, and I've probably pumped a zillion gallons that way, but it is much less effective than heavy flood coolant applied directly to the tool/work interface. As you begin to work with more difficult materials, like Ti, the flood becomes even more useful.

There are people who refuse to use flood, and arguments can be made that it can be messy, can cause rusting, etc. But dry machining is limited to one half the SFPM of flood cooled machining. On top of that, surface finishes are almost always better wet, with a few exceptions.


----------



## wquiles

Here you can see better the DRO install bracket - very sturdy!












Today I was able to get the stuff for wiring the new lathe. Instead of a direct connection to the power box, and again following *precisionworks*'s advice on the VFD, I decided on a modular approach: bring 220 to the lathe's stand) and then have a short connection to the electrical box. This makes the 220V work future proof 


First the actual 220 box (note this is NOT yet connected on the other side to the HOT 220 outlet!):











the box is solidly grounded to the metal base:











Here I prepare the short run for the electrical box:

















here I work on the side going to the HOT 220V. I am just using the outlet on the lathe (which is not connected) to hold the pins while I get them wired:






I then proceeded to check the level on the 3 gearboxes, and place some strong magnets near the draining bolts, here in the threading/fee gear box:






and this one right under the drain for the main gearbox:






The main gear box needed some fluid:






and also the threading/feet gearbox (the 3rd one in the carriage was nice and full):






here is the DRO powered - very nice - I am so glad I got a DRO on my lathe!






I then tested everything, making sure grounds were good/solid, and that I did not have any exposed 120V or 220V, and everything went well. I also installed the pieces for the foot brake and verified its operation - this is a VERY nice option indeed!. 

That is all for today. If I get some time tomorrow I will start the break-in period of the gears 

Will


----------



## wquiles

StrikerDown said:


> Will,
> 
> Congratulations, that is a beautiful piece of hardware. :twothumbs
> 
> I had pretty much decided I was going to try to get the Grizzly G4003G... til seeing yours. :thinking:
> 
> Having read several of your posts it seems that you have most likely done a lot of homework here so I have a question.
> 
> Does this beast let you dial up different threads without a change gear swap?
> 
> How about the Grizz?
> 
> One of your reasons for choosing the Matthews was the gearbox is that right? Is the only difference noise?
> 
> Thanks for any help. I thought I had made up my mind!
> 
> Last night/this morning while waiting for the ball to drop the link I had to the Grizzly catalog quit working. I noticed this a couple minutes after midnight! I had to go back to Grizzly’s home page where I found that they updated the website promptly around midnight with the new 2009 catalog and lo... the G4003G is now $200 higher! So I have even less incentive to pick their lathe.
> 
> 
> Ray



Thanks 

I only have the PM12x36 for a few days, and today was the first time that I actually got it working, but so far I can honestly say that I would still order the PM12x36 over the Grizzly machine. Also, get the PM DRO - very, very nice for the money!

Will


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## Alan B

Great photos!

I could be wrong, but - It looks like the red/black are reversed from plug to jack. It also looks like a neutral to ground short in the plug? This is also not code and can be dangerous. 

If I recall correctly it is not code to mount a flexible cable to a fixed outlet on a movable stand. Seems like we had to rewire a lot of stuff years ago due to this at work. Probably not a big problem.

The footing base is very small front to back, that whole stand/lathe appears to be quite unstable. In a small tremor it would go right over. Is it designed to bolt to the floor? We design for 1G in all directions here in California these days. Looks dangerous to me, maybe in Texas it is okay.

-- Alan


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## wquiles

Alan B said:


> Great photos!
> 
> I could be wrong, but - It looks like the red/black are reversed from plug to jack. It also looks like a neutral to ground short in the plug? This is also not code and can be dangerous.
> 
> If I recall correctly it is not code to mount a flexible cable to a fixed outlet on a movable stand. Seems like we had to rewire a lot of stuff years ago due to this at work. Probably not a big problem.
> 
> The footing base is very small front to back, that whole stand/lathe appears to be quite unstable. In a small tremor it would go right over. Is it designed to bolt to the floor? We design for 1G in all directions here in California these days. Looks dangerous to me, maybe in Texas it is okay.
> 
> -- Alan



Good eye  I will try my best to answer your questions/points:

- The instructions that came with the 220v gear from home depot call for "either" red or black on the hot terminals, so I was not trying to keep them all the same, but you are right, commonly it is wired the other way around. The lathe forward and reverse work as expected, so the end result was good.

- None of my 220V machines, including the new lathe, came prepared for the newer 4 terminal 220V outlets:
- hot 1
- hot 2
- return for 1&2
- earth ground

All of my machines have just the hot1, hot2, and return, so instead of not connecting the extra wire for the earth ground, I connect it to the metal chassis, which is what the electrician who installed my 220V outset set to do (those two are tied/shorted together at the distribution box). This is why you see the plug coming from the lathe with those two pins shorted.

- The "hot" 220V wire will be disconnected from the wall when the lathe is not in use. In fact I have to install a small hook to coil the wire while not in use - code or not, I did not felt comfortable having a "live" 220 wire on the floor either 

- I would also like if the base of the lathe were wider. Right now I have not yet lowered and level the lathe, so it is currently sitting too high. The lathe is designed to work sitting on the floor or bolted, but given the rarity of earthquakes where I live, I am not bolting it to the floor (keeping fingers crossed!)

Will


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## cmacclel

The HOT colors do not matter wiring 220v. You just have 2 120v legs and a green equipment ground. Talk about overkill Will  You could have ran 14/2 to that machine with plenty to spare. The motor draws around 9 amps full load  I ran mine with 12/2. That white wire that ships with the lathe appears to be the same cheesy wire I had on my grizzly, I believe it's 16ga.

Will I believe the reason for the 4way 220v outlets is the fact that many dryers and ranges have 110v electronics that need the neutral. Straight 220v machines only need 2 120v phases. The Equipment ground is just for saftey.

My new lathe draws 25amps MAX and I wired like you with a Home Depot 50 amp Dryer cord setup into a custom box PVC box with the outlet on the right side. Also I relocated the Rotary Phase converter Stop/Start from upstairs to in the shop


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## StrikerDown

Your "extension cord" is wired backwards but it won't effect the rotation of the motor in single phase AC. If it were 3 phase (3 hots) then changing any two of the three will change rotation of the motor due to the phase relationship of 3 phase AC. 

Since you are using an "extension cord" you probably should change the red and black to eleminate future confusion. No it is not code but I understand your concern about the 220V on the floor and being ablt to disconnect. Have you considered running conduit from the panel to the ceiling above the lathe with twist lock drop cord?

Are there 3 conductors coming from the new machine or 4?

The neutral (white) should not be connected to the ground (green) at the machine or any where outside of the power panel on the side of the house.

If there are 4 conductors coming from the lathe then the white should only be connected to white all the way back to the power panel. The green should only be connected to green all the way back to the power panel. The hot leads connected to hot leads all the way back to the power panel. 

What you want to avoid is connecting the white and green outside of the panel. It is a safety issue should you ever get the wrong combination of loose connections it could be a killer. This is not very likely but using an extension cord does increase the risk.

If you had hard wired from the panel to the machine then it would not matter what the color of the hot wires you just can't use white or green.

If your lathe has only three conductors 2 Hot and a Neutral (wh) you should probably change out the lead to 3 conductor with ground and connect the ground to a substantial chassis ground in the machine.

If it has 3 conductors 2 hot and a ground (gr) then the machine either completely runs on 220V or uses an internal stepdown transformer for any 110V requirements like the work light or electronics. In this case you don't need the neutral conductor at all. Just don't jumper between the neutral and ground connections in the male connector.


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## StrikerDown

cmacclel said:


> The HOT colors do not matter wiring 220v. You just have 2 120v legs and a green equipment ground. Talk about overkill Will  You could have ran 14/2 to that machine with plenty to spare.


 
I thought the same thing when I saw the wire size, but then I thought about how he is using it "On the floor" and the extra heavy wire might be a good thing.

That big wire sure is expensive though!

Will,

Wondering if your lathes gearbox lets you dial up the different thread cutting feed rates without removing/swapping change gears?

And do you know if the grizzly you were considering does?


----------



## nailbender

All new appliances be it home or work related if already wired must use a four prong 240 plug until you get into monster stuff. 

Most all states are now code at least NC, Ga, SC and any based off of the International code system are required that they have to use two hots a ground and a neutral. I build houses or used to :mecry:and the code changed several years back and was basically homeowner oriented for safety.

dave


----------



## wquiles

StrikerDown said:


> Your "extension cord" is wired backwards but it won't effect the rotation of the motor in single phase AC. If it were 3 phase (3 hots) then changing any two of the three will change rotation of the motor due to the phase relationship of 3 phase AC.


Cool, thanks, makes sense about the rotation being OK.




StrikerDown said:


> Since you are using an "extension cord" you probably should change the red and black to eleminate future confusion. No it is not code but I understand your concern about the 220V on the floor and being ablt to disconnect. Have you considered running conduit from the panel to the ceiling above the lathe with twist lock drop cord?


I did, but the assistant at the electronics section gave me a weird/bad look when I mentioned it, so I decided to consider this for later, until I can find out better if/how I can do it in a residential environment.




StrikerDown said:


> Are there 3 conductors coming from the new machine or 4?


Just 3. The two hots and the return. At the lathe's electrical box, they tied the return to the earth ground - this is the common ground for everything.




StrikerDown said:


> The neutral (white) should not be connected to the ground (green) at the machine or any where outside of the power panel on the side of the house.
> 
> What you want to avoid is connecting the white and green outside of the panel. It is a safety issue should you ever get the wrong combination of loose connections it could be a killer. This is not very likely but using an extension cord does increase the risk.


This is how things are wired right now:
1) The female 220V outlet is grounded (green wire) to the metal base of the lathe by 5 metal screws - a solid ground. 
2) The electrical panel of the lathe has the return wired as the earth ground for the machine. So by the metal-to-metal bolts in the machine, the earth ground from the female outlet is already "wired" to the return wire in the 3-conductor wire coming out of the lathe's distribution panel.
3) Since I wanted a "stronger" ground from the female outlet to the lathe's distribution box, I shorted the green and the white at the male plug that I created for the lathe, so when it plugs into the female outlet, I have an extra solid connection between earth ground and the metal and the distribution box. 

This give me an extra path to earth ground, so now I don't have to count on the metal-to-metal connectivity to make sure the lathe's electrical panel, and of course the lathe, are at earth potential. If by some means one or both of the hot wires were to contact the metal on the machine (the parts I would touch during normal operation), the way I have it wired now would allow for an extra path to earth ground, which lowers the chance of me being shocked.

Now, I must admit that I am still fuzzy on the increase risk part by having the extra ground tied to the return at the lathe. Please note that I am not claiming to be an expert, I am not an electrician, and I do really want to understand this better, but I still don't follow why the way I have it wired now is more dangerous than not connecting earth ground. Can you please expand on this some more? Is there an alternate way to wire it so that it would be even better, safer? I though about adding a single thick wire from the earth ground in the lathe's electrical box to the metal base of the lathe, which is at earth potential - is that better perhaps?




StrikerDown said:


> If your lathe has only three conductors 2 Hot and a Neutral (wh) you should probably change out the lead to 3 conductor with ground and connect the ground to a substantial chassis ground in the machine.


Per the wiring diagram of the lathe, and by looking at the wiring panel on the lathe, there is a 24V step down transformer, but nothing for 110V. Still, the lamp, and the coolant pump run on 110V, so (and I have to double check) they might just be running one of the hot wires and the return to run those. 




StrikerDown said:


> I thought the same thing when I saw the wire size, but then I thought about how he is using it "On the floor" and the extra heavy wire might be a good thing.
> 
> That big wire sure is expensive though!


That is exactly why I got the wire I got. Extra thick and water resistant. Although it is going to be on the floor only while I run the lathe, I wanted to be extra careful. The wire alone was $44 at my local Home Depot.




StrikerDown said:


> Wondering if your lathes gearbox lets you dial up the different thread cutting feed rates without removing/swapping change gears?
> 
> And do you know if the grizzly you were considering does?


Yes, I tried it a little bit last night. You can change threads on the machine by using the round dials without having the change physical gears on the machine. I believe the Grizzly allows for the same, but my gears are completely enclosed on its own fluid bath, which is a great thing for wear and noise 

Will


----------



## precisionworks

> if your lathes gearbox lets you dial up the different thread cutting feed rates without removing/swapping change gears?


With few exceptions, a machine that has a QCGB (Quick Change Gear Box) will never have to swap out a gear -- EXCEPT, it the threading is changed from inch to metric.

Slightly OT ... I snagged a nice motor on eBay last night. Seller accepted my offer, and it cost me just $100.66 (delivered) for a new Baldor M3661T. Nearly identical to my 'standard' M3611T, except the shell & base are heavier, adding about 20# to total weight:







Time to start saving for another VFD


----------



## Alan B

wquiles said:


> ...
> 
> Just 3. The two hots and the return. At the lathe's electrical box, they tied the return to the earth ground - this is the common ground for everything.
> 
> This is how things are wired right now:
> 1) The female 220V outlet is grounded (green wire) to the metal base of the lathe by 5 metal screws - a solid ground.
> 2) The electrical panel of the lathe has the return wired as the earth ground for the machine. So by the metal-to-metal bolts in the machine, the earth ground from the female outlet is already "wired" to the return wire in the 3-conductor wire coming out of the lathe's distribution panel.
> 3) Since I wanted a "stronger" ground from the female outlet to the lathe's distribution box, I shorted the green and the white at the male plug that I created for the lathe, so when it plugs into the female outlet, I have an extra solid connection between earth ground and the metal and the distribution box.
> 
> This give me an extra path to earth ground, so now I don't have to count on the metal-to-metal connectivity to make sure the lathe's electrical panel, and of course the lathe, are at earth potential. If by some means one or both of the hot wires were to contact the metal on the machine (the parts I would touch during normal operation), the way I have it wired now would allow for an extra path to earth ground, which lowers the chance of me being shocked.
> 
> Now, I must admit that I am still fuzzy on the increase risk part by having the extra ground tied to the return at the lathe. Please note that I am not claiming to be an expert, I am not an electrician, and I do really want to understand this better, but I still don't follow why the way I have it wired now is more dangerous than not connecting earth ground. Can you please expand on this some more? Is there an alternate way to wire it so that it would be even better, safer? I though about adding a single thick wire from the earth ground in the lathe's electrical box to the metal base of the lathe, which is at earth potential - is that better perhaps?
> 
> Per the wiring diagram of the lathe, and by looking at the wiring panel on the lathe, there is a 24V step down transformer, but nothing for 110V. Still, the lamp, and the coolant pump run on 110V, so (and I have to double check) they might just be running one of the hot wires and the return to run those.
> 
> ...
> 
> Will



The green safety ground wiring should never carry operating current. It is for fault current only. Tying the neutral to the safety ground causes operating current to traverse the safety ground and can raise the ground potential of the chassis and cause a shock danger, especially when motor transients occur. Neutral is near ground potential, but may not be at ground potential due to voltage drops and unbalanced loads elsewhere. There are various wiring failure scenarios where tying neutral to safety ground at the equipment masks the fault and causes increased risk of voltage on the external chassis. In many cases additional permanent independent grounds to the chassis are used to improve safety. 

It is appropriate to tie the lathe chassis and the stand to the green wire safety ground. It is also required to isolate the white neutral from the chassis. The neutral should only connect to internal components that require 110V.

Be safe,

-- Alan


----------



## wquiles

Alan B said:


> The green safety ground wiring should never carry operating current. It is for fault current only. Tying the neutral to the safety ground causes operating current to traverse the safety ground and can raise the ground potential of the chassis and cause a shock danger, especially when motor transients occur. Neutral is near ground potential, but may not be at ground potential due to voltage drops and unbalanced loads elsewhere. There are various wiring failure scenarios where tying neutral to safety ground at the equipment masks the fault and causes increased risk of voltage on the external chassis. In many cases additional permanent independent grounds to the chassis are used to improve safety.
> 
> It is appropriate to tie the lathe chassis and the stand to the green wire safety ground



Don came up to pickup his new 8x lathe this morning, and he has taken the code classes and understands why things are done the way they are (thanks much Don!). He explained in person the potential for a double fault, so now I understand better what to change in my wiring to make it a little bit safer than it is now. I will re-wire that plug to remove the short at the plug, buy a 4-wire conductor to wire a new plug, and tie the green wire back at the lathe's electrical box, to the metal chassis. Still, note that as said bellow, both (green and white) will still be connected at the metal frame of the lathe, but now they will be as close as possible to the actual electronics and provide an extra level of safety.




Alan B said:


> It is also required to isolate the white neutral from the chassis. The neutral should only connect to internal components that require 110V.


None of my 220V tools allow for this. On the old lathe, the new lathe, my floor drill, etc. - the white neutral/return is always tied to chassis ground 

Will


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## wquiles

precisionworks said:


> With few exceptions, a machine that has a QCGB (Quick Change Gear Box) will never have to swap out a gear -- EXCEPT, it the threading is changed from inch to metric.
> 
> Slightly OT ... I snagged a nice motor on eBay last night. Seller accepted my offer, and it cost me just $100.66 (delivered) for a new Baldor M3661T. Nearly identical to my 'standard' M3611T, except the shell & base are heavier, adding about 20# to total weight:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Time to start saving for another VFD



Yup, you have me convinced already. I played yesterday with the manual levers for speed change on the 12x36 and I hated it (I am too used to infinitely variable speeds!). So not yet, but I will also be saving for a VFD conversion sometime this year 

Will


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## cmacclel

So Will how loud is the Lathe?

Mac


----------



## wquiles

cmacclel said:


> So Will how loud is the Lathe?
> 
> Mac



You know, my next door neighbor came last night as soon as I had it wired, and we played with the different controls somewhat, including various speeds (I hate to use levers to change speeds!). The gears are not even broken in, but bellow 500-800rpm is fairly "normal" and quiet, meaning not loud at all. At the highest speed there was a higher freq. pitch/whine sound to it, and it was a little louder as expected, but I have to do this again once I follow the break-in procedure as it "should" get better/quieter 

Will


----------



## StrikerDown

nailbender said:


> All new appliances be it home or work related if already wired must use a four prong 240 plug until you get into monster stuff.
> 
> Most all states are now code at least NC, Ga, SC and any based off of the International code system are required that they have to use two hots a ground and a neutral. I build houses or used to :mecry:and the code changed several years back and was basically homeowner oriented for safety.
> 
> dave


 

I was an indistrial electrician about a hunders years ago so I'm not up on current code, but what you said make complete sense.

I would have bet the Wills lathe had 3 conductor with ground (thats 4).

If it were mine I would hard wire from the panel to the nearest wall in conduit mostly cause I have that stuff sittin around. Or if it is free standing, to aviod the tripping hazard, I would put in a box or drop from above depending on ceiling height with twist locks. It is so much safer than having a tripping hazzard around moving machinery. Also I would replace the cord with a ground conductor. But thats just me.


----------



## wquiles

StrikerDown said:


> I was an indistrial electrician about a hunders years ago so I'm not up on current code, but what you said make complete sense.
> 
> I would have bet the Wills lathe had 3 conductor with ground (thats 4).
> 
> If it were mine I would hard wire from the panel to the nearest wall in conduit mostly cause I have that stuff sittin around. Or if it is free standing, to aviod the tripping hazard, I would put in a box or drop from above depending on ceiling height with twist locks. It is so much safer than having a tripping hazzard around moving machinery.


I will inquire as to what is code for the drop box - I like this path as well 




StrikerDown said:


> Also I would replace the cord with a ground conductor.


I am doing that today. I will be buying a 4 conductor, 16GA wire and re-do the plug properly, with the extra earth ground tied inside the electronics box to the metal chassis, in a different spot than the current connection point for the return/white wire (even though it is also connected to the metal chassis) 

Will


----------



## StrikerDown

wquiles said:


> You know, my next door neighbor came last night as soon as I had it wired, and we played with the different controls somewhat, including various speeds (I hate to use levers to change speeds!). The gears are not even broken in, but bellow 500-800rpm is fairly "normal" and quiet, meaning not loud at all. At the highest speed there was a higher freq. pitch/whine sound to it, and it was a little louder as expected, but I have to do this again once I follow the break-in procedure as it "should" get better/quieter
> 
> Will


 
You poor guy! It's like changing all those gears on an 18 wheeler! 

I just love that mechanical whine!


----------



## Alan B

StrikerDown said:


> I was an indistrial electrician about a hunders years ago so I'm not up on current code, but what you said make complete sense.
> 
> I would have bet the Wills lathe had 3 conductor with ground (thats 4).
> 
> If it were mine I would hard wire from the panel to the nearest wall in conduit mostly cause I have that stuff sittin around. Or if it is free standing, to aviod the tripping hazard, I would put in a box or drop from above depending on ceiling height with twist locks. It is so much safer than having a tripping hazzard around moving machinery. Also I would replace the cord with a ground conductor. But thats just me.



Overhead twist-lock and a separate (redundant) ground conductor sound excellent.

Neutral tied to chassis is a bad idea. It may be old style, but we never do that as far as I know. Seems like a major safety violation. The NFPA 70E regulations don't even allow a person to throw a circuit breaker without proper personal protective equipment - safety glasses and natural fiber clothing (or more depending on the available fault current). Things have really tightened up in recent years. Most electricians aren't even up to speed on the requirements anymore.

If the neutral is tied to chassis, and the neutral opens up, then all load current will be travelling on the safety ground (and the equipment may well continue to operate normally). This can raise the potential of everything tied to the safety ground and create a shock hazard at remote locations from the fault, especially if the safety ground opens up at some remote location). Turning on a high-load 120V appliance (like a compressor) can open the safety ground and cause a fatal shock elsewhere in the house such as the kitchen or bath). The equipment involved can be separate from the equipment that ties the neutral to the safety ground, so this can be quite a mess to fix since ALL neutral to safety ground connections must be cleared, aside from the required utility / house entry connection.

-- Alan


----------



## StrikerDown

Alan,

Exactly what I was referring to.

"It is a safety issue should you ever get the wrong combination of loose connections it could be a killer. This is not very likely but using an extension cord does increase the risk."

You said it much better! :wave:

Damn Will, I wish I could come drool on your new toy! You wouldn't need the coolant pump!


----------



## wquiles

The used Starrett Level came in yesterday, so I spent last night leveling the new lathe. It has a small nick on one of the top plastic corners, but it seems to give repeatable readings, and it is darn sensitive for sure!:
















Man, the level is so sensitive that it takes a LONG FREAKING time to get things aligned!. I set the lathe with a slight down taper (slightly lower on the tailstock side) to aid in collecting lubricant on the built-in recovery hole, and of course as level as I could on the actual ways to minimize any twist (this is what took at long time since of course I ahve to check on the spindle side, then the tailstock side, adjust, and then check again, again, again, etc.). 

When I started, there was so much twist, that just moving the carriage up and town changed the reading on the level - it is much nicer now (can't hardly see any movement now) thanks to the nice level 

One thing I noted is that since my leveling feet have the neoprene footing, the lathe can move a "little" bit when pushed - not enough that you can see it moving (it feels solid), but the Starrett level "can" detect the slight movement. Is this normal and just comes form the neoprene feet, or am I better off with a steel leveling feet and no neoprene?

Will


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## KC2IXE

I'd say steel - in fact, I'd say once leveled, the ideal is to grout the machine to the floor, so things don't move


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## Mirage_Man

wquiles said:


> One thing I noted is that since my leveling feet have the neoprene footing, the lathe can move a "little" bit when pushed - not enough that you can see it moving (it feels solid), but the Starrett level "can" detect the slight movement. Is this normal and just comes form the neoprene feet, or am I better off with a steel leveling feet and no neoprene?
> 
> Will



That is why I did not use rubber feet. I used solid steel riser blocks I turned on the lathe. The best scenario and one I am not able to do is bolt it to the slab.


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## TranquillityBase

That looks like a knee brake


----------



## wquiles

cmacclel said:


> So Will how loud is the Lathe?
> 
> Mac



While leveling the machine I started doing the burn-in procedure, and now that I have been with the machine running longer periods (about 15 min on each of the first few speeds), I can tell that yes, it is louder than my DC powered 8x machine, but not 10 times louder (thank God!). Since my thread/feed box has its own lubrication and it is sealed, there was no noticeable difference in having it running or not.

Will


----------



## precisionworks

> Is this normal and just comes form the neoprene feet ...


I use the identical Mason Mounts under the surface grinder. After a few days, the neoprene will compress slightly & take a set. Check it in a week & you may have a very slight movement that needs correction.

One thing nice about the Mason Mounts, they nearly "glue" any machine to the floor, making a lighter machine very stable when turning an unbalanced part. I'd stay with them unless they become a problem. My South Bend is resting on thinner pads under steel levelers, but stays almost perfect from week to week. If you have a critical job to turn or bore, it's worth the time to check & re-level if necessary.


----------



## Anglepoise

wquiles said:


> Man, the level is so sensitive that it takes a LONG FREAKING time to get things aligned!.
> 
> Will



We should have warned you about that <g>.

Even resting on the neoprene feet, you will get a bubble movement on the level when you lean very heavily on the lathe. But once its all settled and been re leveled a couple of times you will be fine. Try and get even weight on all 8 feet so the steel cabinet wont distort over time. Get your cabinet set and correct for height and then progress upwards from there.

Looks great.........


----------



## precisionworks

> Try and get even weight on all 8 feet ...


David makes a good point, one which I've been thinking about. If that were my machine, I'd consider expanding the footprint of both bases (which was done on the South Bend in my shop). The easiest way to do this is to use heavy wall square tubes that extend slightly beyond the factory bases.

If you go this route, Will, be careful that you don't go too far on the side where you stand ... you can easily go farther on the back side. If you extend too far on the working side, it's easy to create a trip hazard ... don't ask how I know:sigh:

An even cleaner approach is to have two plates cut, same width as the bases but longer front to back. Somewhere in the 1" thickness range would be nice, and add weight down low where it really helps. If there's a heavy fab shop in your city, they'll stock plate like that, and have either a CNC oxy-fuel table, or a CNC waterjet that can quickly & easily cut the plates to shape, including a nice radius on all the corners.

There's a local shop that does this, and I'd be glad to have it cut for you, but freight would probably be $100 from here to Texas.


----------



## wquiles

*KC2IXE*, *Mirage_Man*, *TB*, *Anglepoise*, *precisionworks* - thanks much for the feedback on the base. I did my best in keeping all 8 feet balanced weight-wise - actually each set of 4, since the spindle side is much heaver than the tailstock side. I will keep these feet for now, wait a couple of days for them to settle, and re-check the twist on the ways next weekend.

*precisionworks* - Long term, I do like what you suggest. I would definitely like a wider stance, and adding weight down below on a base similar to your SB sounds like a good idea. If I understood you right, I would bolt the new 1" thick plate to the bottom of each base, and then on the front/back "extensions" re-mount the leveling feet. Is that what you had in mind? The only problem I would have would be how to "swap" these without needing an engine hoist again. Right now I could change them in pairs without a hoist, but not all 4 of them 



With feedback from you guys, I re-wired the electrical box and now have a proper 4-conductor wire going from the lathe's electrical box to my temporary female 220 outlet:












Here you can see the new earth ground connection:






and although crowded, here is the new black/red wires connected to the electrical strip (lowest, leftmost two positions), and the white terminal connection which goes to the PE or metal ground of the machine (that copper/bronze plate leftmost in the pic):






Here is a full view of all of the connections, relays, etc.. The transformer above is wired to take 220V and give out 24V:






here is the circuit diagram of the lathe and accessories. Note how the return wire (white) is directly wired to the PE ground of the lathe. I did use my voltmeter to verify this - all the metal in the machine, including the outer casing for the motor is shorted to this PE plate:







Now that I have the lathe aligned and balanced, I went ahead and place the back splash cover, so now we can look at the fully operational lathe. If you compare to my first set of pics, you will see that the lathe sits now lower than before:





















Will


----------



## cmacclel

Will why is there still 4 wires in the mix when you only need 3?? 

You should use a 20amp 2-pole breaker with 12ga wire, 12/2 in Romex or 12/3 in WO style wire. One wire each to the breaker and then the other to the Green side (equipment ground) of the panel buss bar.

Looking good 

Mac


----------



## precisionworks

> I would bolt the new 1" thick plate to the bottom of each base, and then on the front/back "extensions" re-mount the leveling feet.


Exactly!

As you said, you'll again need a lift of some type. One of the handiest things I've ever built is an A-frame gantry crane:






It's built so that there's a full half inch clearance above the I-beam when the garage door is up. It's most often used to load & unload the portable welder, but it's also handy whenever anything heavy needs lifting (the chain hoist is 2000# rated):






If you have room, a gantry is a nice addition to any shop. You might also consider mounting a fixed position I-beam, with stationary supports on the ends, if all your heavy machine tools are in a straight line.


----------



## wquiles

cmacclel said:


> Will why is there still 4 wires in the mix when you only need 3??


Mac, you are right, I only need 3 wires (two hots and the return). I added the 4th wire (which is the green, earth ground) just for additional safety 

Will


----------



## cmacclel

wquiles said:


> Mac, you are right, I only need 3 wires (two hots and the return). I added the 4th wire (which is the green, earth ground) just for additional safety
> 
> Will


 

No No No.....

There is no return.....You should have 2 hots and earth gound only. Earth ground and equipment ground are the same. You should not have a neutral over to the machine.

The only place, within a residence, where Neutral and ground should meet up is the main panel box. Neutral and Ground are bonded together there.


Mac


----------



## wquiles

precisionworks said:


> Exactly!
> 
> As you said, you'll again need a lift of some type. One of the handiest things I've ever built is an A-frame gantry crane:
> 
> (snip)
> 
> It's built so that there's a full half inch clearance above the I-beam when the garage door is up. It's most often used to load & unload the portable welder, but it's also handy whenever anything heavy needs lifting (the chain hoist is 2000# rated):
> 
> (snip)
> 
> If you have room, a gantry is a nice addition to any shop. You might also consider mounting a fixed position I-beam, with stationary supports on the ends, if all your heavy machine tools are in a straight line.



That is the problem - I don't have the room for one 

Still, I know I will come up with a way to have a wider base at some point 

Will


----------



## wquiles

Already my first "mod" on the new lathe. The chuck adapter for MT3 is too long for my tailstock:






so this extra at the end has to go:











but that was not enough, so I had to cut another piece:






Now it fits great, allows full travel (4" which is great compared to the 2 and 1/2" travel of the 8x machine), and I still have about an 1/8" travel to push the piece out 

Will


----------



## Alan B

cmacclel said:


> No No No.....
> 
> There is no return.....You should have 2 hots and earth gound only. Earth ground and equipment ground are the same. You should not have a neutral over to the machine.
> 
> The only place, within a residence, where Neutral and ground should meet up is the main panel box. Neutral and Ground are bonded together there.
> 
> 
> Mac


 
Now that makes more sense. The machine 'white' is not a neutral at all, but an earth ground mis-colorcoded...?? There should be no 120V loads at all then, to insure that no return current flows in the safety ground.

I will check with some members of my workplace's electrical safety committee to learn more about this type of wiring setup and what they recommend.

-- Alan


----------



## wquiles

cmacclel said:


> No No No.....
> 
> There is no return.....You should have 2 hots and earth gound only. Earth ground and equipment ground are the same. You should not have a neutral over to the machine.
> 
> The only place, within a residence, where Neutral and ground should meet up is the main panel box. Neutral and Ground are bonded together there.
> 
> 
> Mac






Alan B said:


> Now that makes more sense. The machine 'white' is not a neutral at all, but an earth ground mis-colorcoded...?? There should be no 120V loads at all then, to insure that no return current flows in the safety ground.
> 
> I will check with some members of my workplace's electrical safety committee to learn more about this type of wiring setup and what they recommend.
> 
> -- Alan




That could be the case indeed, with improper color codes. I know that the DRO is wired for 220V (I already checked that), so I will check tomorrow to see how the lamp is connected, as well as the coolant pump - I wonder if any of these two are wired for 120V using the white/return as reference? 

Alan - share with them the circuit diagram that I posted above - maybe that will help (that is, assuming that diagram is even accurate to how the machine is actually wired!).

Will


----------



## cmacclel

Will I would have left the tang on the tailstock arbor if you could have. My Grizzly fit that same arbor no problem. All it takes it one chip or piece of debris in the taper and if it spins in the taper it's downhill from there. My original lathe tailstock spun a few times and it damaged it.

Mac


----------



## Alan B

wquiles said:


> That is the problem - I don't have the room for one
> 
> Still, I know I will come up with a way to have a wider base at some point
> 
> Will


 
Maybe you can design the gantry to sit over the car when it is parked in there, so it doesn't take up much 'room'.

I would think fewer support points would be better than the current eight. Getting the tension even with so many is impossible. 

All our critical equipment at work is aligned and grouted.

Sure looks like a nice machine, Will! 

-- Alan


----------



## Alan B

cmacclel said:


> Will I would have left the tang on the tailstock arbor if you could have. My Grizzly fit that same arbor no problem. All it takes it one chip or piece of debris in the taper and if it spins in the taper it's downhill from there. My original lathe tailstock spun a few times and it damaged it.
> 
> Mac


 
Is there a slot in there to take the tang and prevent spinning? I don't think my lathe has that. Neat idea, though. I've had that problem when drilling brass or enlarging existing holes... Had to resort to a chuck key in the chuck against the cross slide...

-- Alan


----------



## wquiles

cmacclel said:


> Will I would have left the tang on the tailstock arbor if you could have. My Grizzly fit that same arbor no problem. All it takes it one chip or piece of debris in the taper and if it spins in the taper it's downhill from there. My original lathe tailstock spun a few times and it damaged it.
> 
> Mac



Ahh - I did not think about that. Thanks for the heads-up  . The big problem for me is that it was robing me from a full 1" of travel 

At least the adapter was only like $10 bucks - I can always buy another one, on my next Enco/MSC order 

Will


----------



## Anglepoise

Some of the new 4 conductor hook ups for dryer and stove are a little different than the 2 hot's and a ground we normally associate with 220/240 volts.

When in doubt don't take my advice as I am not an electrical engineer but I think the photo below is correct if you are going to use 4 conductor plugs and sockets


----------



## Alan B

Anglepoise said:


> Some of the new 4 conductor hook ups for dryer and stove are a little different than the 2 hot's and a ground we normally associate with 220/240 volts.
> 
> When in doubt don't take my advice as I am not an electrical engineer but I think the photo below is correct if you are going to use 4 conductor plugs and sockets


 
That is consistent with my understanding. Note that it also shows an independent ground connection to the equipment, as well as one through the plug. I've heard this is the new approach, since the safety ground is important and a failure in it won't normally be noticed, the redundant ground insures that such a failure is far less likely, and the equipment remains grounded even when unplugged which can offer protection against some other types of faults.

-- Alan


----------



## StrikerDown

StrikerDown said:


> Are there 3 conductors coming from the new machine or 4?
> 
> The neutral (white) should not be connected to the ground (green) at the machine or any where outside of the power panel on the side of the house.
> 
> If there are 4 conductors coming from the lathe then the white should only be connected to white all the way back to the power panel. The green should only be connected to green all the way back to the power panel. The hot leads connected to hot leads all the way back to the power panel.
> 
> What you want to avoid is connecting the white and green outside of the panel. It is a safety issue should you ever get the wrong combination of loose connections it could be a killer. This is not very likely but using an extension cord does increase the risk.
> 
> If you had hard wired from the panel to the machine then it would not matter what the color of the hot wires you just can't use white or green.
> 
> If your lathe has only three conductors 2 Hot and a Neutral (wh) you should probably change out the lead to 3 conductor with ground and connect the ground to a substantial chassis ground in the machine.
> 
> If it has 3 conductors 2 hot and a ground (gr) then the machine either completely runs on 220V or uses an internal stepdown transformer for any 110V requirements like the work light or electronics. In this case you don't need the neutral conductor at all. Just don't jumper between the neutral and ground connections in the male connector.


 

I never would have gussed the WHite wire FROM A FACTORY was really GRound, even if they are Chinese!

Now that we have determined your machine has no neutral, I'm going to guess that your worklight is a halogen 24V and the coolant pump is 24V too instead of 110V. I'm guessing they use 24V (low Voltage) for safety around cooling fluids. 

As I said yesterday the WH and GR wires should not be connected together outside of the panel on the side of the house.


----------



## Alan B

Once you get these new lathes fired up, I have an interesting little project that perhaps one of you would like to make a few of. Start with a tail end scrap from a cut-down [email protected] job. Thread the cut end of this piece to make an "extender", but inside mount a fake cell that brings the leads out through a hole in the side of this adapter so we can measure in-situ current on a completed [email protected] project.

Perhaps this has already been done, in any case it would be a useful piece of test equipment. I could build the rest if I just had an extension tube to start with, and it doesn't have to be any particular length (probably best if shorter than a cell anyhow).

-- Alan


----------



## precisionworks

> All it takes it one chip or piece of debris in the taper and if it spins in the taper it's downhill from there.


An old machinist taught me to use a 5# copper hammer to seat the drill chuck - retract the jaws first, then give it three or four solid whacks. Before doing that, my chuck had spun, which meant buying a finish reamer and reaming the tailstock bore ... not bad if you go slowly, turn the reamer only by hand, use lots of TapMagic, etc. Then you either have to stone the male taper or replace the male taper.

The solid copper hammer is the best solution I've found.


----------



## precisionworks

> Maybe you can design the gantry to sit over the car when it is parked in there, so it doesn't take up much 'room'.


That's how mine works, and the wheels make it easy to move even with 2000# hanging on the hook.


----------



## StrikerDown

wquiles said:


>



I have a silly ? for you. 
How do you remove the chuck from the short taper? 

I'm guessing: Open chuck smack it with a brass drift and hammer?


----------



## wquiles

StrikerDown said:


> I never would have gussed the WHite wire FROM A FACTORY was really GRound, even if they are Chinese!
> 
> Now that we have determined your machine has no neutral, I'm going to guess that your worklight is a halogen 24V and the coolant pump is 24V too instead of 110V. I'm guessing they use 24V (low Voltage) for safety around cooling fluids.
> 
> As I said yesterday the WH and GR wires should not be connected together outside of the panel on the side of the house.



As soon as I verify that the lamp/pump run on 24V, I will re-wire the lathe properly with just the 2 hots and the earth ground (green) and no connection to the white wire 

Will


----------



## wquiles

StrikerDown said:


> I have a silly ? for you.
> How do you remove the chuck from the short taper?
> 
> I'm guessing: Open chuck smack it with a brass drift and hammer?



Once you hit zero on the tailstock scale, stop, so that you can keep using it. If you keep rewinding the tailstock past the 0" mark, then the arbor gets pushed out. So basically while in use, you rewind until you feel resistance, but not past the resistance point, otherwise you would need to get out the 5# hammer and refit the arbor in place 

Will


----------



## StrikerDown

wquiles said:


> Once you hit zero on the tailstock scale, stop, so that you can keep using it. If you keep rewinding the tailstock past the 0" mark, then the arbor gets pushed out. So basically while in use, you rewind until you feel resistance, but not past the resistance point, otherwise you would need to get out the 5# hammer and refit the arbor in place
> 
> Will



That's how you get the morse taper out of the tail stock and you use a drift key on the drill press but how did you get the chuck off of the short (JT) taper?


----------



## wquiles

StrikerDown said:


> That's how you get the morse taper out of the tail stock and you use a drift key on the drill press but how did you get the chuck off of the short (JT) taper?



Opps - sorry. To remove the chuck I usually hold the arbor in a wood vise (so I don't mar the steel's finish), and then insert and use the chuck key to "wiggle" the body from side to side along the arbor's axis to get it loose. 

Will


----------



## precisionworks

> how did you get the chuck off of the short (JT) taper?


Jacobs sells a pair of wedges than are used if there's a shoulder (like a drill press quill)






They go on to say "In case the mounting taper of the arbor does not provide a shoulder, a cross hole should be drilled through the neck of the arbor (illus. D.) and a cross pin inserted. Then the wedges can be used between the chuck back and the cross pin. If desired, a hole may be driled through the soft center portion of the chuck body (Illus. D.), and a pin may then be used with an arbor press to force the arbor out of the chuck.


----------



## StrikerDown

Thanks guys, I have a new chuck that needs a different MT. The wedges look Too easy, wonder why I haven't noticed them before!

Sorry for the hijack...


----------



## wquiles

StrikerDown said:


> Thanks guys, I have a new chuck that needs a different MT. The wedges look Too easy, wonder why I haven't noticed them before!
> 
> Sorry for the hijack...



Not a hijack at all - ask away 

Will


----------



## precisionworks

A related story (only slightly OT/hijack )

Bought a Tapmatic 90-X tapping head, which is the largest conventional head they make ... only problem was the #5 MT sticking out the top, and my machine needed R-8. These heads are over a fifteen hundred dollars each (although mine came from an auction), and I didn't want to mess it up. The nice lady at Tapmatic referred me to their instructions which say:

REMOVAL OF TAPERED ARBORS: Removal of the arbor from the
Jacobs taper in a tapping attachment will generally require striking the arbor with a soft metal rod. Hold the tapping attachment, with the arbor pointed away, in one hand and strike the arbor sideways on tang or in relief area, with a brass rod grasped in the other hand. Numerous blows may be required. DO NOT STRIKE THE TAPPING ATTACHMENT. Stuborn arbors and arbors installed with Loctite will require the application of heat. Using a soft flame propane torch, evenly heat the interface area where the arbor enters the attachment. (300° F will be required to break down the Loctite.) After applying heat, resume striking the arbor with the soft metal rod until the arbor loosens. Always use caution when handling heated parts.

No problem. Fired up the propane torch & set it to a soft flame, warmed the arbor to 300°, using a Fluke IR thermometer, and banged away with the brass rod. Nothing. Repeated the process - nothing. Turned off the propane torch & lit the 100,000 btuh rosebud heating tip (running oxygen & acetylene). Heated the tang of the #5 MT above red heat, closer to white, until it started to melt. Kept it heated for a few minutes, until the Fluke read almost 400°, and went back with the brass rod. After a few more minutes, the two separated

The new R-8 adapter went into the freezer overnight, the Tapmatic body got a gentle warm up with the propane torch, and the two are now joined at the hip. Which is needed, as the head weighs about 15#.


----------



## SafetyBob

Will, that is a great solution to an overhead crane. I saw one kind of like it a few years back that disassembled and was made out of aluminum. Unfortunately they would sell that but they gave me a modified cherry picker that would hold close to 2000#. It was widened at the base so it could go around some special equipment that was a one time job...can't remember, it's been a long time. 

I will put pencil to paper and get my measuring tape out. I REALLY like that crane of yours. I could use something like that, and if I was smart I could make high legs for outdoors and low legs for inside the garage.....

Oh, I wanted to ask a question too. I can't remember if you borrowed a level or you bought one. How did you level the machine and where did you get your feet? 

Bob E.


----------



## wquiles

SafetyBob said:


> Will, that is a great solution to an overhead crane. I saw one kind of like it a few years back that disassembled and was made out of aluminum. Unfortunately they would sell that but they gave me a modified cherry picker that would hold close to 2000#. It was widened at the base so it could go around some special equipment that was a one time job...can't remember, it's been a long time.
> 
> I will put pencil to paper and get my measuring tape out. I REALLY like that crane of yours. I could use something like that, and if I was smart I could make high legs for outdoors and low legs for inside the garage.....
> 
> Oh, I wanted to ask a question too. I can't remember if you borrowed a level or you bought one. How did you level the machine and where did you get your feet?
> 
> Bob E.



Bob,

The krane solution is not mine - that is *precisionworks*' solution 

Now assuming the level/feet question are for me: I did buy an used Starrett level on Ebay, shown in recent photos on the prior page. The feet I ordered from MSC direct - those are rated to 1000 pounds each. Yes, a little overkill for a lathe in the 1200 pound range :devil:

Will


----------



## wquiles

Question for you guys: Today I got my Phase II Wedge-type, "B" series Quick Change Tool Post. The "T" at the bottom of the tool post is a little bit too wide for the slot in my compound. Which side/part of the "T" is the one I have to mill, the flat part that faces the bottom, right? Or am I totally confused (as always!)?

EDIT: Never mind. I got home and checked it: I have to mill it on all sides before it will fit:











I guess it will be a "little" bit longer before I can cut some chips on my new lathe 


By the way, the tool holders, even though they are all for the BXA system, are a lot more different than I expected. I have tool holders that came with the piston-type kit that came with my lathe






I also have the ones that came with my Phase II kit:






and I also got a few ones from CDCO. Here in this picture:
left = longer tool holders that came with my piston kit
center = holders from CDCO
right = holders that came with the Phase II kit






Here is another view:
top = longer tool holders that came with my piston kit
center = holders from CDCO
bottom = holders that came with the Phase II kit
















Now, all else being equal, is there any advantage to the longer tool holders that came with the piston kit?


Will


----------



## G1K

Edit: my comments no longer make sense. Good oil by the way... get it 



R


----------



## wquiles

I also finalized the simple wiring change to correct my initial mistake with the white/return wire (boy do I feel pretty stupid about now!). I verified that there are no 120V devices:
- the pump is a 220V pump
- the lamp is a 24V lamp
- the DRO runs on 220V

I removed the white/return blade, and soldered both wires in the plug to the earth ground (green) blade. They are already shorted together at the electrical box as well:






I guess it is good to feel stupid but being safe, right? Thanks again for all of your help in making sure my lathe was wired properly and safely 


By the way, I finally got the recommended Vactra Way Oil today:






David (*Anglepoise*) would be proud of me for at least making an effort to keep my new lathe clean :devil: , although, I don't think I could ever compete with him in the keeping-the-lathe-in-pristine-condition category :nana:

Just kidding - of course!. Thanks David for all of your help :twothumbs

Will


----------



## Anglepoise

Quick tip on the tool post . Once you have milled the 'T' to fit , don't get caught out with the surface "B" being higher than "A".
Mine was level but the tool post would never fully 100% tighten and it slipped on occasion. Took me a couple of months to find out what was wrong.
During one of my 'cleaning sessions' ( no snickering please ), I noticed radial marks on the top of the 'T', showing it was rubbing on the post. Once I milled a few thou off ( "B" ) so it was below the surface 'A', all was well. Sometimes these little things get forgotten.


----------



## Anglepoise

White paint. ( sorry slightly off topic ) 

My part time job has me maintaining a beautiful pair of Cat 3406E marine intercooled and turbocharged engines. The engine room and motors and gearboxes all come from the factory with white paint.
Its amazing how it helps. 
Brown oil ,black soot, red coolant, and blue/green corrosion stand out very easily and aren’t missed. It sure helps to spot problems before they get too big.
Will…..just going to have to keep that white lathe clean.<g>


----------



## TranquillityBase

Will, you can use the factory 'T', and make a new bolt for the tool post, it's much easier.


----------



## wquiles

Anglepoise said:


> Will…..just going to have to keep that white lathe clean.<g>


I will "try" 




TranquillityBase said:


> Will, you can use the factory 'T', and make a new bolt for the tool post, it's much easier.



The lathe came with nothing on the compound. What "factory T"? 

Will


----------



## TranquillityBase

wquiles said:


> I will "try"
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The lathe came with nothing on the compound. What "factory T"?
> 
> Will


Bummer


----------



## precisionworks

All the industrial distributors carry T-nuts in different sizes. A standard metric T-nut may be usable without modification. Have you measured the widest section, the middle section, and the height (to slightly below the top of the compound)?

Modifying yours won't take but a few minutes with your mill.


----------



## wquiles

Anglepoise said:


> Quick tip on the tool post . Once you have milled the 'T' to fit , don't get caught out with the surface "B" being higher than "A".
> Mine was level but the tool post would never fully 100% tighten and it slipped on occasion. Took me a couple of months to find out what was wrong.
> During one of my 'cleaning sessions' ( no snickering please ), I noticed radial marks on the top of the 'T', showing it was rubbing on the post. Once I milled a few thou off ( "B" ) so it was below the surface 'A', all was well. Sometimes these little things get forgotten.



Thanks much David - very valuable tip :thumbsup:

Will





precisionworks said:


> All the industrial distributors carry T-nuts in different sizes. A standard metric T-nut may be usable without modification. Have you measured the widest section, the middle section, and the height (to slightly below the top of the compound)?
> 
> Modifying yours won't take but a few minutes with your mill.



I have one of these, so milling the T will be a fun small project:
R8 shank, 3" dia, 5-cutter milling head:






Will


----------



## wquiles

TranquillityBase said:


> Bummer



No worries TB. At least the "T" on the Phase II is almost there. The piece that came with the Piston kit is a simple rectangular block of steel - not even a "T" 

Will


----------



## wquiles

TranquillityBase said:


> Will, you can use the factory 'T', and make a new bolt for the tool post, it's much easier.



TB, I owe you an apology. The machine did have something on the compound - it had the typical, 4-position, rotating tool holder, and this had in fact a "T" on it. I completely forgotten about this since it was the first thing I took off the machine when I received it. It was put away out of sight, which is why I had forgotten about it. So yes, I could try to modify that "T" part, but I am just going to do the milling on the "T" that came with the Phase II as it should be a fairly straight forward job on my mini-mill 

Will


----------



## cmacclel

I lucked out  I kept the T-Nut that came with the Grizzly. It was a perfect fit for my new machine. I'm using the same Phase II Wedge style holder and have had great luck with it. Even though my new machine could take the CXA (300 series) size post I prefer the smaller one.

Mac


----------



## StrikerDown

wquiles said:


> No worries TB. At least the "T" on the Phase II is almost there. The piece that came with the Piston kit is a simple rectangular block of steel - not even a "T"
> 
> Will



Will,

You could mill the solid block for another quick change option (different post) or save it as is for that new lathe in a few months! 

Sorry I just couldn't resist!


----------



## wquiles

cmacclel said:


> I lucked out  I kept the T-Nut that came with the Grizzly. It was a perfect fit for my new machine. I'm using the same Phase II Wedge style holder and have had great luck with it. Even though my new machine could take the CXA (300 series) size post I prefer the smaller one.
> 
> Mac



I had a generic wedge type AXA on my 8x, but so far this Phase II looks to be a little bit nicer, plus is the same one on your CNC machine, so it should be OK for my manual lathe, right? :devil:

Size-wise, Brian said the same about the tool holders. This is my first BXA size holder, so there will be some getting use to it. Sounds like the BXA size is the sweet spot for the stuff we do 

Will


----------



## StrikerDown

wquiles said:


> Now, all else being equal, is there any advantage to the longer tool holders that came with the piston kit?
> 
> 
> Will




I haven't noticed a "professional" answer to this question yet but my guess is that the longer holder might give you a little more rigidity closer to the work piece in some circumstances assuming the rest of the holder is a least as rigid or better.


----------



## precisionworks

> the longer holder might give you a little more rigidity closer to the work


+1

It might also allow moving the tool holder backwards, closer to the centerline of the tool post. As a rule, especially with carbide inserts, you want to set up for minimum tool extension. Carbide does well with a rigid set up, and a loose or sloppy set up quickly kills an insert from vibration & chatter.


----------



## precisionworks

Along the same line, a good read from MAN:

http://www.modernapplicationsnews.com/enews/2008_December/feature-2.aspx


----------



## TranquillityBase

wquiles said:


> TB, I owe you an apology. The machine did have something on the compound - it had the typical, 4-position, rotating tool holder, and this had in fact a "T" on it. I completely forgotten about this since it was the first thing I took off the machine when I received it. It was put away out of sight, which is why I had forgotten about it. So yes, I could try to modify that "T" part, but I am just going to do the milling on the "T" that came with the Phase II as it should be a fairly straight forward job on my mini-mill
> 
> Will


No worries Will 

I was in too much of a hurry to try out my new QC tool post, and seemed easier to turn a new bolt. Another plus, the original compound 'T' was ground finished and it has two set screws that keep the 'T' locked in place on the compound.


----------



## wquiles

OK, so now I can say that I have actually created some metal chips with my new lathe 


I started by modifying the "T":





















Although my tool is wide enough, my mini-mill does not have the "guts" to cut this wide, so I had to do lighter passes ... man, I need a "real" mill !!!






and after 1-2 million chips (conservative estimate!):











and thanks to David, I got the right height:






I then had to clean/lube the compound, but not before cleaning this "crud" that was inside - nasty! (before and after):











the inside of the compound was pretty rusted, I cleaned and lubed with WD-40 - lots of rust:






Once cleaned, I aligned it:






and it is good that I did, since the factory marking was off by about 1/2 Deg:






I then mounted the tool post and aligned it to the compound:











I checked the spindle run-out at two places, the outside and the inside. On the outside, I barely got the needle to move (0.0005 scale):






on the tapered edge I got the needle to move very little, about half a division or less:






I then mounted the Bison mounting plate for the set-tru chuck:
















I mounted my first tool:






and then gave the mounting place a very light pass to make sure it is nice/flat/even before mounting the chuck:






I then mounted my 6" Bison Set-Tru Chuck:












and proceeded to adjust it using a 3/8" 6" drill rod:











When finally torqued down, I was getting slightly less than one division run-out, so something like 0.0003-4 TIR. I can always try to get even less, but this is not too bad to get things started 

I have a short business trip, so I will not be able to play much for the next couple of days, but at least I did cut "some" metal today :devil:

Will


----------



## StrikerDown

Sueeeet! :naughty: That 6 jaw looks awesome! :twothumbs


----------



## DonShock

wquiles said:


> ...... man, I need a "real" mill !!!......


Yeah, you need to get rid of that "wimpy" mill.  I have the perfect spot to put the old one when you upgrade.


----------



## Mirage_Man

Looks great Will! I am surprised to see all that gunk under the compound. I think I'll take mine off and have a look too. BTW you may want to use oil or grease instead of WD-40 under there. It's my understanding that WD can actually cause rust.

Oh and BTW one of these days we'll get you to set the compound on an angle instead of parallel to the spindle.


----------



## precisionworks

It's a good idea to disassemble any parts of a new machine, as I've often seen the same thing Will had - looks like little parts of the casting process. No problem as long as you get all of that out of the machine.



> BTW you may want to use oil or grease instead of WD-40 under there. It's my understanding that WD can actually cause rust.


The MSDS tells volumes about what WD-40 can and cannot do:

http://www.mobile-shop.com/parts/msds/P80_WD40.pdf

Aliphatic Petroleum Distillates (solvents) 45-50%
LVP (low vapor pressure) Hydrocarbon Fluid 12-18%
Carbon Dioxide 2-3%
Non-hazardous Ingredients (inerts) <10%
*Petroleum Base Oil (mineral oil) 15-25%*

Since it does contain 15-25% mineral oil, it will not cause rusting (Mobile Velocite Light Spindle Oil is also a mineral oil product, used in a zillion lathes & other high speed spindles). Since it contains only 15-25% oil, it will give some rust protection, but is a poor lubricant for machinery. Because of the LVP fluids & the solvents, it it superb for displacing moisture (WD stands for Water Displacement). It's also great for blowing out blind holes that you've just tapped.

If the shop doesn't have a rusting problem, WD-40 may do the job. If the humidity is high, a rust preventive grease like RIG Universal Gun Grease is a bulletproof soulution.

I can see a Bridgeport, or a large mill/drill coming soon


----------



## HarryN

Hi - I have a silly question about these multi cutter heads. When you replace the cabide inserts, do you need to do an adjustment to each insert to get them "even" or are they so well made that you can "assume" that things are fine ? I suppose the answer is based on the precision requirement, so let's assume I am happy with results in the +/- 0.002 inch range.

I would think that if some of them are "lower" than the others, it would tend to make swirl marks, even if the correct "average" precision is correct ?

Thanks

Harry





wquiles said:


> Thanks much David - very valuable tip :thumbsup:
> 
> Will
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I have one of these, so milling the T will be a fun small project:
> R8 shank, 3" dia, 5-cutter milling head:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Will


----------



## precisionworks

> When you replace the cabide inserts, do you need to do an adjustment to each insert to get them "even"


Every face mill has insert shaped pockets that are milled or EDM'd into the body. It's nearly impossible to incorrectly install an insert. Even if all the inserts are set for identical projection, there's a 99% chance that a swirl pattern will be left - unless the head is in perfect alignment to the table. Perfect means just that, but almost perfect still results in a nice enough finish for most jobs. Even a non insert (solid) end mill will leave swirl marks for the same reason.


----------



## wquiles

HarryN said:


> Hi - I have a silly question about these multi cutter heads. When you replace the cabide inserts, do you need to do an adjustment to each insert to get them "even" or are they so well made that you can "assume" that things are fine ? I suppose the answer is based on the precision requirement, so let's assume I am happy with results in the +/- 0.002 inch range.
> 
> I would think that if some of them are "lower" than the others, it would tend to make swirl marks, even if the correct "average" precision is correct ?
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Harry



The truth is that in this particular milling head, which is a low cost piece, the 5 tips are not that well aligned. Even if I clean the pockets well, and use new tips, I still can tell that they are off a "little". Not terribly bad, but not perfect either. If you go slow and make light passes, the finish is pretty nice to me 

Will


----------



## wquiles

OK, more stuff to share with you guys 

I finally got the flex belts and got them installed:






Also, before I got the Starrett 199, I had also won another precision master level, a Lufkin 18" cast iron model, which uses the same basic setup as the less expensive Starrett 99 models (I will be selling one back on Ebay shortly). In all honestly, although the Starrett came with a case (the Lufkin didn't), the Lufkin "looks" much better in physical appearance:











Here is a side by side:
















They are not in the same exact spot, and I was not trying for them to be perfectly equal, but here is another side-by-side close-up:







OK, next topic. I picked up these brand new 6 carbide tipped cut-off blades for $25 on Ebay (on Enco, a cheap version of these goes for about $30-35 each!). There were a tad too tall for my Phase II holder, so with the help of a file I "convinced" the holder to accept the blades. The good thing is that the same holder can also use the carbide-insert blade shown:




































And how do they cut? AWESOME:












Now, these next set of tools I picked up for a song on the 30-35% specials from MSC (on top of the catalog special prices!), so this allowed me to experiment with some new-to-me tools for a low admission price. However, these were 3/4" shank, not the 5/8" shank that my holders take. No problem - my mini mill can help 

First one is a top-notch holder, size 3, right hand. Inserts on Ebay are cheap and plentiful:




































The next new holder is an A4 holder, also from Kennametal. It is the rightmost in this picture. It is stiff enough to do turning (according to Kennametal, although turning will not be the main use!), grooving. cut-off, etc. - it is supposed to be a tool for many uses. For many of my projects I have been needing a deep grooving/side-to-side turning tool, so this looked like a perfect match - after using it tonight, I am happy to report that it was in fact a great buy (more on this below):






The last one came recently, which is the similar to the one I recently asked in another thread. This uses round inserts, to you can do deep grooving, turning, and facing, as well as applying a smooth radius:












So now that I have a fairly complete set of cutting tools, I decided to "play" a little bit tonight - cutting chips for real, for the first time!. I used the round insert tool to turn and face this piece of Al (using the power feed/cross for the first time as well!), then the top-notch tool to make the square grooves, and then the A4 for the smaller square grooves within the larger grooves:











After using my new lathe/tools for the first time, all I can say is: Oh my God, Oh my God, Oh my God! I know you guys said that this machine was going to be much stiffer and solid, but I had no idea how much difference there was compared to the 8x machine. Simply unbelievable. I had no chatter of any kind, and it felt as if I was cutting a much softer material than 6061 - cutting those above was simply effortless - almost too easy!. If I would had known this size/weight machine was this nice, I would had done the switch earlier - I am now "truly" and "officially" spoiled by the bigger lathe :naughty:

Will


----------



## cmacclel

Cool 

Man looks like we copied each other.

I picked up one of those button tools and grooving holders also. Though mine are not Kenametal. Also my button tool is a center offsett but the 5/8 US tool plus 29 Sandvic inserts for $35 off ebay. I picked up the Manchester Style grooving tool from Enco becuase the inserts where only $6 each compared to the Kenametals.

My new toy I just got through playing with is a Quick Cut style Knurler and a couple of carbide boring bars  Can't beat Ebay 10" 5/8 solid carbide bar with 20 inserts for $100 and a brand new 1/2 bar with 20 inserts for the same $$.


BTW I've bought a few of those Micro100 cuttoff blades at $40 a piece!!
Mac


----------



## Mirage_Man

wquiles said:


> After using my new lathe/tools for the first time, all I can say is: Oh my God, Oh my God, Oh my God! I know you guys said that this machine was going to be much stiffer and solid, but I had no idea how much difference there was compared to the 8x machine. Simply unbelievable. I had no chatter of any kind, and it felt as if I was cutting a much softer material than 6061 - cutting those above was simply effortless - almost too easy!. If I would had known this size/weight machine was this nice, I would had done the switch earlier - I am now "truly" and "officially" spoiled by the bigger lathe :naughty:
> 
> Will



Yup, it almost makes cutting aluminum feel like you're cutter butter with a hot knife. :thumbsup:


----------



## wquiles

Time for a fluid change!

First the main gear box:

















Then the thread/feed box:
















and then the carriage:











All had some small metal particles, so it was definitely good do change now 

Will


----------



## precisionworks

I'm starting to have tool envy, since nothing has been purchased in over a week

It is hard to beat a larger, stronger machine. I modified an aluminum pulley yesterday (customer job) running the Bison high positive insert. Set the machine to top speed of 2250 SFPM, and took nice, fat cuts ... enough to fill a ten gallon trash can. I could have cut deeper & fed faster with the 3 hp motor that's now sitting on the shelf, as it is 6x more powerful than the factory motor. Gotta get another VFD

BTW, I have a couple of "care packages" that will be sent out to ... ???


----------



## wquiles

precisionworks said:


> I'm starting to have tool envy, since nothing has been purchased in over a week
> 
> It is hard to beat a larger, stronger machine. I modified an aluminum pulley yesterday (customer job) running the Bison high positive insert. Set the machine to top speed of 2250 SFPM, and took nice, fat cuts ... enough to fill a ten gallon trash can. I could have cut deeper & fed faster with the 3 hp motor that's now sitting on the shelf, as it is 6x more powerful than the factory motor. Gotta get another VFD
> 
> BTW, I have a couple of "care packages" that will be sent out to ... ???



I am "definitely" doing to the VFD change to my lathe later on this year (with your help, of course!). I will be looking out for the VFD controller and motor on Ebay - try to snag them at the "right" price 

I just PM'd you my address for the "care package" - thanks much!

Will


----------



## SafetyBob

Will, been checking your (and Brian) lathe out. Especially after following the thread about Mac's new lathe. 

I can't believe they have your lathe on sale for basically 3,000 INCLUDING shipping. That is vantastic and also a really good deal. 

You guys are going to shame me into replacing all my old equipment with something new.......well maybe. But with a price like that it is almost to hard to say no to it. 

Bob E.


----------



## wquiles

I am "really" happy with my lathe purchase/choice - right now, I would order the same lathe again 

Will


----------



## wquiles

With advice from Barry, I picked up a really dirt cheap CNMG 4x holder on Ebay. Barry was also nice enough to cut/grind it to fit my 5/8" holders - thanks again Barry - you the man :twothumbs

With Barry's help I also picked up some "special" positive inserts for Al. The shinny inserts look very purdy, but they cut even better:





















Will


----------



## StrikerDown

Will,

Are those inserts double sided?


----------



## wquiles

StrikerDown said:


> Will,
> 
> Are those inserts double sided?



Yup - I got 4 edges per insert, 2 per side. That pack of 10 that I bought should last me until next century 

Will


----------



## precisionworks

I really like that Bison/TMX high positive insert. It cuts through aluminum like butter, and leaves a fine finish. After filling a 10 gallon bucket with chips, there was only the tiniest Built Up Edge, which easily popped off with the tip of a scriber.



> That pack of 10 that I bought should last me until next century


They seem to stay sharp for a long time, even running over 2000 SFPM.


----------



## StrikerDown

Is that this kit?

http://cgi.ebay.com/Fette-CNMG-1204...0|66:2|65:12|39:1|240:1318|301:1|293:1|294:50

With the shank cut and machined down?


----------



## 65535

Man those uncoated carbide inserts look great. High positive rake and a mean aggressive chip breaker. Don't go too easy on it now.


----------



## wquiles

StrikerDown said:


> Is that this kit?
> 
> http://cgi.ebay.com/Fette-CNMG-1204...0|66:2|65:12|39:1|240:1318|301:1|293:1|294:50
> 
> With the shank cut and machined down?



Yup, that is the same one I got 

Will


----------



## StrikerDown

That is an awesome deal. 

Barry, you do some nice work. Not so much that it is hard to do the machining (for you) but the finish looks as good as factory also. :thumbsup:

What did you do to it to get it back to black after machining?


----------



## wquiles

I asked Barry the same question, so ...

The cold blue is Brownells Dicropan T-4:

http://www.brownells.com/aspx/NS/store/ProductDetail.aspx?p=1085&title=DICROPAN T-4~

Will


----------



## StrikerDown

Very Nice, it looks to be a rigid beast.


----------



## cmacclel

Barry whats your address I'll have one shipped to you for modification 

Mac


----------



## wquiles

cmacclel said:


> Barry whats your address I'll have one shipped to you for modification
> 
> Mac



Oh, oh, Barry - maybe I should have kept my big mouth shut up :shakehead

Then again Mac, you "have" a mill that can cut the steel no problem. In my case, my mini-mill (X2) is not strong enough to take that much metal (1" square shank down to 5/8") and still finish some time this year 

Will
(hiding behind a big rock)


----------



## KowShak

65535 said:


> Man those uncoated carbide inserts look great. High positive rake and a mean aggressive chip breaker. Don't go too easy on it now.


Strictly speaking, a CNMG insert (like the inserts that precisionworks recommends) is a negative rake insert. They may have an aggressive chipbreaker but if they we named CNMG they should be negative raked. Again, strictly speaking CNMP or CMMS would be positive raked, however manufacturers don't always follow the ANSI / ISO naming scheme perfectly.


----------



## StrikerDown

wquiles said:


> Oh, oh, Barry - maybe I should have kept my big mouth shut up :shakehead
> 
> Then again Mac, you "have" a mill that can cut the steel no problem. In my case, my mini-mill (X2) is not strong enough to take that much metal (1" square shank down to 5/8") and still finish some time this year
> 
> Will
> (hiding behind a big rock)



Will come from behind your granite slab/surface plate.

You do what you can for friends and those you choose, if your time it too precious then you affix $'s to the work or say no, it's that simple. I don't need the work done so I won't ask but I sincerely admire the work done. I also admire you for posting the pics, they are great and very much appreciated,please don't stop. All of the info provided on this site is really very informative.

I am sure anyone here that wants one of those tool holders/inserts is either willing to pay the freight or they can't afford it to begin with.


----------



## StrikerDown

While I am in this thread about your lathe I want to ask you a question.

I have been eyeing the Grizzly G4003G. As an amateur/hobby gunsmith I like the spider on the outboard spindle, the roller tips on the rests, tail stock torquing and spindle thru diameter of 1 5/8". These items seem like the perfect setup for chambering and working on long barrels. 

But cmacclel had problems with 2 of them and...

Then you got your PM 1236 and I like some of it's features also (foot brake, coolant system, price/no shipping) and you seem very satisfied with it so far. So, here is the question. 

Does the outboard spindle end on your lathe stick out far enough to put a spider on it, or even sleeve it with a spider?

A couple hundred one way or the other isn't a deal breaker but Chris'e problems with the Griz is a concern.


----------



## wquiles

StrikerDown said:


> Does the outboard spindle end on your lathe stick out far enough to put a spider on it, or even sleeve it with a spider?



It does stick out some - about 15mm, with the belt cover in position, but the cover does "cover" the bottom half somewhat, so clearance is less on the bottom half:












The only other thing I will note (no that I am trying to twist your arm or anything ... :devil: ) is that unlike many Chinese/Asian machines these days, so far I had to adjust basically nothing - it came ready to run "as is", which to me is by itself a good sign 

Will


----------



## StrikerDown

Damn that is a nice looking lathe! Thanks Will.

It looks like there might be enough spindle to sleeve it and put the spider screws just outside of the cover. and hold the sleeve on with set screws.

What do you think?

I am not sure if a spider is really even needed. Chances are when threading and chambering the speed will be as slow as it will turn. Wonder if anyone knows if 20-25 inches of barrel sticking out the backside of the chuck and spindle would flop around at the lowest rpm?

Or put another way, how do the pros turn long stock through the spindle without it whipping around?


----------



## precisionworks

> a CNMG insert ... is a negative rake insert.


Strictly speaking, inserts like C*N*MG, W*N*MG, D*N*MG, T*N*MG, etc, are negative rake. In order to produce a high positive rake insert, the maker extends the cutting edges upward in a way that looks unlike any other insert (for ferrous material cutting).

Most people think of a CNMG-GM (General Machining) insert:





The cutting edge, back to the chip breaker, is almost flat, with just a slight dip to give it a sharp edge.



The CNMG-HA is very different, with the high positive rake face that has a mirror polish:







A negative insert can easily have a high positive rake face, just as a positive insert could be made with a negative rake face.


----------



## wquiles

StrikerDown said:


> Damn that is a nice looking lathe! Thanks Will.
> 
> It looks like there might be enough spindle to sleeve it and put the spider screws just outside of the cover. and hold the sleeve on with set screws.
> 
> What do you think?
> 
> I am not sure if a spider is really even needed. Chances are when threading and chambering the speed will be as slow as it will turn. Wonder if anyone knows if 20-25 inches of barrel sticking out the backside of the chuck and spindle would flop around at the lowest rpm?
> 
> Or put another way, how do the pros turn long stock through the spindle without it whipping around?



I just took a few close-ups of the part of the spindle that sticks out some:






















Will


----------



## StrikerDown

Great pics Will, thanks. It looks like there is plenty of room to slide a sleeve inside the cover. 

I have only messed around with small lathes and none have had the inside of the spindle threaded. Do you know what the threads are for?

I looks like a possible way to adapt a spider and it might not lose too much of the ID.


"The only other thing I will note (no that I am trying to twist your arm or anything ... :devil: ) is that unlike many Chinese/Asian machines these days, so far I had to adjust basically nothing - it came ready to run "as is", which to me is by itself a good sign "

You haven't lapped the ways, compound and cross slides yet? Hehehe! I have heard that the bigger Asians seem to be much better built than their smaller stuff.


----------



## Mirage_Man

Hey Will, how do you like that DRO? I'm thinking about getting the mill version for my new mill.


----------



## KowShak

precisionworks said:


> Strictly speaking, inserts like C*N*MG, W*N*MG, D*N*MG, T*N*MG, etc, are negative rake. In order to produce a high positive rake insert, the maker extends the cutting edges upward in a way that looks unlike any other insert (for ferrous material cutting).
> 
> Most people think of a CNMG-GM (General Machining) insert:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The cutting edge, back to the chip breaker, is almost flat, with just a slight dip to give it a sharp edge.
> 
> 
> 
> The CNMG-HA is very different, with the high positive rake face that has a mirror polish:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A negative insert can easily have a high positive rake face, just as a positive insert could be made with a negative rake face.



While I do agree with what you're saying, the point that I'm pedantically trying to make is that a CNM*G* insert should never have a positive effective rake, if it does it isn't following the ANSI / ISO naming convention correctly. 

This page has a picture that shows the difference between TNM*G*, TNM*P* and TNM*S*

http://www.plastools.com/insert_information.htm

The TNMG has a flat "land" with the chipbreaker behind it, TNM*P* and TNM*S* don't have the flat land. That flat land is the cutting edge and it gives negative rake. The same applies to CNM*G*, CNM*P* and CNM*S* so CNMG *should* never have a postive effective rake, but as I mentioned above not all manufacturers follow the labelling standard perfectly.


----------



## gadget_lover

Mirage_Man said:


> Hey Will, how do you like that DRO? I'm thinking about getting the mill version for my new mill.



If that is the Sino that I think it is, it's the lathe version of the one I bought. The SDS6-V3.

I like it so far. Bolt circles are a breeze. 200 memories, lots of special functions. I've not tried cutting a radius with it but I'm looking forward to it.

Daniel


----------



## G1K

wquiles said:


> Will




Will,
I really dig the parts bin in the left of the pic above. Do you have any more info on it?

Ryan


----------



## wquiles

Mirage_Man said:


> Hey Will, how do you like that DRO? I'm thinking about getting the mill version for my new mill.



Brian, I "really" like it. It is working out really well. The paperwork/specs call for a resoltion of 0.0002, and it seems to be about that in mine - definitely better than the Shumatech 350 I had on my 8x lathe.

Matt told me that although the SINO display box is the same CDCO sells, that the scales that Matt includes with his kit are "much" better than the ones with the CDCO kit, so check with Matt before buying a DRO - he might make you a good deal.

WIll


----------



## wquiles

G1K said:


> Will,
> I really dig the parts bin in the left of the pic above. Do you have any more info on it?
> 
> Ryan



I have two of those, completely full. The engineering department in my company closed, and I got "all" of the discrete parts. I have about every resistor made, both in axial and surface mount (in at least 3-4 size and power grades), plus Capacitors, Inductors, chokes, etc.. I was at the right place and at the right time and got them before they were trashed :devil:

Will


----------



## StrikerDown

wquiles said:


> I have two of those, completely full. The engineering department in my company closed, and I got "all" of the discrete parts. I have about every resistor made, both in axial and surface mount (in at least 3-4 size and power grades), plus Capacitors, Inductors, chokes, etc.. I was at the right place and at the right time and got them before they were trashed :devil:
> 
> Will


 
Just a tad better deal than on eBay!

Is Matt the preferred contact at PM?


----------



## Mirage_Man

StrikerDown said:


> Is Matt the preferred contact at PM?



Matt is the owner and the man I dealt with exclusively. He's a great guy. 



wquiles said:


> check with Matt before buying a DRO - he might make you a good deal.



I've already talked to him about it.  I was just curious about your experience with it.


----------



## wquiles

Mirage_Man said:


> Matt is the owner and the man I dealt with exclusively. He's a great guy.


+1




Mirage_Man said:


> I've already talked to him about it.  I was just curious about your experience with it.


Please do let me know what you buy 

Will


----------



## precisionworks

You might also want to look at some of the well known makes like Acu-Rite & Newall, as they can provide superb support for many years to come. Nobody thinks a DRO will ever stop working, and most run for decades, but sliding the table over (to adjust backlash) will drive the reader head through the end cover of the glass scale It looked bad, but a call to Acu-Rite support assured me that it would probably work when realigned. A new end cap & alignment fixture cost $20, and tech support walked me through the procedure. Good as new.

Long manufacturing experience is worth something. Acu-Rite has over one million glass scales in use today, in some of the toughest shop conditions you can imagine. In addition to a 3 year warranty, they provide support for every DRO they've ever made. Their VUE Mill System is equal to the one I use, and should give a long service life:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&item=250363635072

I haven't used Newall, but they get equally good marks from users.


----------



## Mirage_Man

precisionworks said:


> You might also want to look at some of the well known makes like Acu-Rite & Newall, as they can provide superb support for many years to come. Nobody thinks a DRO will ever stop working, and most run for decades, but sliding the table over (to adjust backlash) will drive the reader head through the end cover of the glass scale It looked bad, but a call to Acu-Rite support assured me that it would probably work when realigned. A new end cap & alignment fixture cost $20, and tech support walked me through the procedure. Good as new.
> 
> Long manufacturing experience is worth something. Acu-Rite has over one million glass scales in use today, in some of the toughest shop conditions you can imagine. In addition to a 3 year warranty, they provide support for every DRO they've ever made. Their VUE Mill System is equal to the one I use, and should give a long service life:
> 
> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&item=250363635072
> 
> I haven't used Newall, but they get equally good marks from users.



I have a Newall on my lathe and yes it's nice. However for a $1300 mill I don't want to spend $1200 or for that matter even $850 on a DRO. If I ever decide to upgrade to a full size machine like a BP then Imight consider one of the more well known name brands.


----------



## TranquillityBase

Dang that's a nice machine!!!

Quit with the pics already!:scowl:


----------



## PEU

wquiles said:


> I have two of those, completely full. The engineering department in my company closed, and I got "all" of the discrete parts. I have about every resistor made, both in axial and surface mount (in at least 3-4 size and power grades), plus Capacitors, Inductors, chokes, etc.. I was at the right place and at the right time and got them before they were trashed :devil:
> 
> Will



Lucky Bast....  :devil:


Pablo


----------



## jhanko

Damn, that definitely is a beautiful machine. I wish I had the room (and money) for something like that. I guess I'm stuck with working on tiny lights. Enjoy it!


----------



## wquiles

JHanko said:


> Damn, that definitely is a beautiful machine. I wish I had the room (and money) for something like that. I guess I'm stuck with working on tiny lights. Enjoy it!



+1 - Brian's lathe is awesome. That is what I would have gotten, if I had the money to buy it. That being said, I am very happy with the 12x36 that I got 

Will


----------



## Mirage_Man

wquiles said:


> +1 - Brian's lathe is awesome. That is what I would have gotten, if I had the money to buy it. That being said, I am very happy with the 12x36 that I got
> 
> Will



LOL, had I known the economy was going to go in the crapper when it did I would have bought a machine like yours and saved the rest of the money for other equipment.


----------



## jhanko

wquiles said:


> +1 - Brian's lathe is awesome. That is what I would have gotten, if I had the money to buy it. That being said, I am very happy with the 12x36 that I got
> 
> Will



Will,
I was talking about your lathe...


----------



## wquiles

Mirage_Man said:


> LOL, had I known the economy was going to go in the crapper when it did I would have bought a machine like yours and saved the rest of the money for other equipment.


No worries, you have enough machine to last you a lifetime (that is, until you go CNC :devil





JHanko said:


> Will,
> I was talking about your lathe...


Thanks 


Will


----------



## wquiles

OK, time to dust-off this old thread ...

The bulb of the built-in 24V lamp died a couple of weeks ago. I have been using another incandescent flexible arm lamp (magnetic base) instead, but I have been looking for a replacement lamp. Well, after not being able to find a replacement lamp, I decided to take matters in my own hands - literally 

So I came up with the idea of using a flood type, multi-emiter lamp. Of course it had to be current regulated, but due to the enclosed space, I decided in using active cooling as well. Here are the pieces of the original lamp - the only parts I re-used was the switch and the high-temp glass lens/retainer 

















So I started by using an old piece of scrap Al - this would become the "module":






For the LED's, only the best: a super-duper, ultra rare copper Heatsink. The elarged hole in the middle is for better cooling - more on this later:






OK, so now to shape the outer module:











Here is where the 12V fan will go:






and here is how the module looks inside the plastic housing:






The copper heatsink is countersinked for optimum heat transfer, and also to make sure the emiter domes sit behind the glass (which will be flush with the Al housing):






This is how things look now:






To conserve space at the rear of the plastic housing, the fan is also countersinked:






Parts from Fry's and RadioShack:






Since I am using an LED driver from George, I installed a N.O. momentary switch:






For this project, I am using 4x UX1L Lux3 emiters - not the latest and greatest, but I had them already handy  . Since I can only draw about 1 to 1.5 AC Amps from the lathe's lamp wiring, I am trying to design to stay at 1Amp or less, so I selected the bFlex (buck driver) from TaskLED. So the AC will go through a rectifier diode bridge, a filtering CAP, and then two regulators - a 12V DC for the fan (100mA load) and a 317 for the LED driver. To minimize the wattage lost on the 317, I set the voltage to 23.5V, since the max voltage rating on the bFlex is 25V, and since the AC voltage at the lamp was measured to be between 28-29V AC.

Those 4 longitudinal cuts and on the edge are to facilitate air coming into the copper heatsink - the fan is wired to suck air through the heatsink and to push the air to the back of the plastic housing:






And guess what, the emiters still work after 2-3 years in storage :











Here is my initial bench testing with a quick/dirty prototype circuit. I did tests on the bench at both 1000mA and 750mA, but determined that the heat at 1000mA was too much, even with the active fan cooling everything - remember that this light/module must work for many hours - not just 5-10 minutes like many of our "fun" high-power LED lights. This is a real working light, so reliability was pretty high in my priority list:











I am using the latest and greatest bFlex from TaskLed.com:






For the "real" circuit, and to keep everything low profile (due to lack of space at the back of the plastic housing), I am implementing a double sided board. The 2 regulators and diode bridge are facing the fan (which is pushing air to them), and on top I have the discrete parts and of course the bFlex. Also note that I am using a pin-vise, held to my bench (thanks to member *darkzero*):
















Testing at both 1000mA and 750mA:
















Once it worked on the bench, and I was happy that steady-state temps were hot/warm, but manageable, I decided to try on the lathe. Assembly in the confined space of the housing was tough:


























Here is the light in action - camera on manual exposure - just overhead/ceiling FL lights ON, then with the new LED lamp ON at about 6-8 inches away - it does not seem as a huge difference, but being a flood light, there is light everywhere 











I have to do more long-term testing to see how reliable the fan will work in keeping everything from self-cooking, but so far so good 

Yes, I know. Only a complete nut like me would replace a $5-10 dollar bulb with over $100 of LED's, Driver, regulators, etc.. It is definitely bad to combine a still-leaning machinist with a flashaholic :devil:

Will


----------



## precisionworks

> Only a complete nut like me would replace a $5-10 dollar bulb with over $100 of LED's, Driver, regulators, etc.


You aren't alone ... Sunnex just brought out their 3W LED machine lamp, mag base, 27" arm, etc. Even though you can buy mag base halogen machine lights all day long for $100, I paid twice that for the Sunnex LED

I'll put some photos up in a separate thread.

http://www.sunnex.se/tasklights/ls-led-3w-12-24v.php


----------



## Anglepoise

Well Will, you have allot of time and effort in your light project and I hope it works out. I started off with halogen and then made up a similar LED but I was just not happy with the output and missed the spot and being able to 
'see down a tube' when boring.

Don't think much can beat this 

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...m=350117632997


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## StrikerDown

Bright idea Will 

Looks great and assuming the heat is under control it should out last more that a hundred dollars worth of bulbs if they only last as long as the last one.
:twothumbs


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## wquiles

Thank you guys 





Anglepoise said:


> Well Will, you have allot of time and effort in your light project and I hope it works out. I started off with halogen and then made up a similar LED but I was just not happy with the output and missed the spot and being able to
> 'see down a tube' when boring.


I understand what you mean, and agree with you 100% - this LED flood light is great to have, but I am still keeping my other long flexible neck incandescent/halogen in place as well 

Will


----------



## Alan B

precisionworks said:


> You aren't alone ... Sunnex just brought out their 3W LED machine lamp, mag base, 27" arm, etc. Even though you can buy mag base halogen machine lights all day long for $100, I paid twice that for the Sunnex LED
> 
> I'll put some photos up in a separate thread.
> 
> http://www.sunnex.se/tasklights/ls-led-3w-12-24v.php



Looks like a Malkoff dropin!


----------



## precisionworks

> Looks like a Malkoff dropin!


+1

The design uses an optic for beam shaping, so the beam has more to spot than flood. They spent some time getting this one right.


----------



## wquiles

This is what I mean by now being able to use both of them: the incandescent and the new LED flood light:










Will


----------



## Anglepoise

Looking good.

In the tradition of CPF ( make it don't buy it ) I finished up with a home made halogen, Osram 20 watt bayonet bulb that comes in different angles ( which is really nice ). Unit uses a simple clamp
that works for me better than magnetic and a perf metal covering for the bulb that never gets so hot that it will burn when accidentally touched.


----------



## wquiles

Nice going there David 

By the way, you were right about a "white" lathe - it is easier to spot dirt on it. As you can see on my second picture above, although never quite as clean as you keep yours, I am still "trying" to keep my lathe looking respectable 

Will


----------



## ICUDoc

Another great photoshoot, Will. I have made a lamp from an old floorstander with metal flexible neck. I used a combination of R2 Crees and high-CRI Seouls- the colour rendition is amazing and seems a bit better than I expected- adding a couple of the Seouls to your setup may be an interesting exercise. I DO see that making it outta old bits just lying around has a lot of satisfaction involved, though. Thanks again.


----------



## KowShak

wquiles said:


> you were right about a "white" lathe - it is easier to spot dirt on it.



Don't worry, once you get it uniformly dirty, the dirt will stop showing up on it.... the only thing you'll have to worry about then is getting a clean patch.


----------



## brickbat

wquiles said:


> Yes, I know. Only a complete nut like me would replace a $5-10 dollar bulb with over $100 of LED's, Driver, regulators, etc.. It is definitely bad to combine a still-leaning machinist with a flashaholic :devil:



I don't know - makes perfect sense to me (course I just finished fitting a pair of electronically ballasted 39W ceramic metal halide PAR20 lamps in modified anglepoise-style fixtures to my lathe... and my mill... and drill press... and band saw, and grinder


----------



## StrikerDown

Hope you don't mind me dragging this thread out and dusting it off a little!



wquiles said:


> With advice from Barry, I picked up a really dirt cheap CNMG 4x holder on Ebay. Barry was also nice enough to cut/grind it to fit my 5/8" holders - thanks again Barry - you the man :twothumbs
> 
> With Barry's help I also picked up some "special" positive inserts for Al. The shinny inserts look very purdy, but they cut even better:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Will




WOW... 

When I saw these pics the first time I thought the work was very nice, now having hacked away at my own insert holder for far too long I must say that I have a far greater appreciation for the good work that Barry did.

Barry,

Was this part milled with the face or end mill?

I wonder if the holder went for a joy ride through the surface grinder after being milled?

Will,
It looks like the Phase II is adjusted way down on the wedge. I looked at mine before milling and thought I should take most of the material off of the bottom of the insert holder to keep the tool holder a little higher on the QCTP. 

Having used this arrangement for a while should I take some off the top or does it not really matter?

I can change course easily at this point as I still have another couple eights inch of steel to whittle off! and at least 3/8 on the back side. Now for some time in the garage when the temp is below 100 degrees and a new carbide end mill!


----------



## wquiles

StrikerDown said:


> Will,
> It looks like the Phase II is adjusted way down on the wedge. I looked at mine before milling and thought I should take most of the material off of the bottom of the insert holder to keep the tool holder a little higher on the QCTP.
> 
> Having used this arrangement for a while should I take some off the top or does it not really matter?


The right place to take off is from the bottom, as Barry did (you can tell looking at the lettering on the side of the holder).

I just took some pictures tonight to give you move views of several holders that I have modified, along with the one Barry did (last one on right is the one Barry did):
















This second one, going left to right, holding my new Do-Grip cut-off bar is the one I will be doing from scratch out of 4140 steel, but instead of two pieces (block + holder) it will be a single block with the integrated dovetail, which will be stiffer and less wide as well):






Will


----------



## precisionworks

> Was this part milled with the face or end mill?


2" face mill, although a solid carbide end mill would have worked just as well. I often use the face mill for hard milling, as each insert has 4 cutting edges available. If a solid carbide end mill gets chipped on a job like this, it means a trip to the sharpening shop.



> I wonder if the holder went for a joy ride through the surface grinder after being milled?


No, the holder is only machined, not ground. IIRC, the machined finish was pretty decent. The edges of the holder were softened (chamfered) with a surface conditioning belt on the Burr King.


----------



## StrikerDown

My mistake, I didn't have the the insert holder in front of me and I didn't remember there was so much drop from the insert clamp surface to the top of the shank, It has been clamped up side down too long!

Thanks for the extra pics Will. that looks like what I was shooting for. 

I do need to shorten the shank... less to mill that way!


----------



## Clark

My PM1236 arrived today, purchased because of this thread.
Are there supposed to be assembly instructions?

I see the stand is a two piece with a coolant pump in one and a brake in the other. There should be instructions to assemble this stuff.


----------



## precisionworks

> There should be instructions to assemble this stuff.



Unless you are a skilled ChingGlish reader, the instructions are best used to soak up spilled oil 

I'll send the "manual" for my Grizzly mill-drill, which seems to cover at least 49 different machines ... sort of like reaching into a hat & pulling out the number you need. You may want to consult the importer, or post specific questions (with photos) on this forum. Most of use have rebuilt a number of Asian machines, some new & some used, and may be able to help.

FWIW, South Bend does have a nice manual


----------



## wquiles

Clark said:


> My PM1236 arrived today, purchased because of this thread.
> Are there supposed to be assembly instructions?
> 
> I see the stand is a two piece with a coolant pump in one and a brake in the other. There should be instructions to assemble this stuff.



Basically, no, no instructions on mine either. Just use the (Jedi) Force to guide you - you should be able to put it together with a blaster helmet on and visor down 

Now, seriously, the pieces only fit one way, so you can't assemble them wrongly. Leave the bolts/screws for the middle thin piece (that ties both larger stand pieces) somewhat loose until you can get the lathe on top - it will be somewhat tricky to get the holes aligned between the lathe, the bottom pan, and the stands if the thin piece is tight.

Another tip, before you place the lathe down on the pan, place some felt/rubber gaskets on in between the lathe and the pan. This will seal oil from going down on the floor. Ask me how I know about this 

Another tip, I would skip installing/trying to use the coolant pump. Get a low pressure mister like the one I got - you will be happier:
https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/232943

I am assuming that you will use an engine hoist of some kind, and that you have at least one more person (or two) besides yourself. If you drop the lathe it will break like glass, plus we don't want you to get hurt - be careful and go very slow 

I now have used my PM lathe for more than 6 months and I still love it!


----------



## StrikerDown

wquiles said:


> Basically, no, no instructions on mine either. Just use the (Jedi) Force to guide you - you should be able to put it together with a blaster helmet on and visor down
> 
> Now, seriously, the pieces only fit one way, so you can't assemble them wrongly. Leave the bolts/screws for the middle thin piece (that ties both larger stand pieces) somewhat loose until you can get the lathe on top - it will be somewhat tricky to get the holes aligned between the lathe, the bottom pan, and the stands if the thin piece is tight.
> 
> Another tip, before you place the lathe down on the pan, place some felt/rubber gaskets on in between the lathe and the pan. This will seal oil from going down on the floor. Ask me how I know about this
> 
> Another tip, I would skip installing/trying to use the coolant pump. Get a low pressure mister like the one I got - you will be happier:
> https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/232943
> 
> I am assuming that you will use an engine hoist of some kind, and that you have at least one more person (or two) besides yourself. If you drop the lathe it will break like glass, plus we don't want you to get hurt - be careful and go very slow
> 
> I now have used my PM lathe for more than 6 months and I still love it!




So I am guessing that you have figured out how to cut threads! The Chinlish manual that came with mine leaves a lot to be desired also!

I have had too many distractions lately and haven't figured it out yet?


----------



## saltytri

StrikerDown said:


> So I am guessing that you have figured out how to cut threads! The Chinlish manual that came with mine leaves a lot to be desired also!



Don't feel bad! I just spent a while figuring out how to cut threads on my German lathe. The Gerglish manual is better than a Chinlish one but still a little opaque in spots. :shakehead


----------



## wquiles

StrikerDown said:


> So I am guessing that you have figured out how to cut threads! The Chinlish manual that came with mine leaves a lot to be desired also!
> 
> I have had too many distractions lately and haven't figured it out yet?



Between this forum, Mac, Daniel, and a few other great forum members, I learned to cut threads on the 7x and 8x before I got the 12x. I had to re-learn/adjust my technique with the 12x, but threading is no longer a chore.

Threading was the one operation where I was a little bit nervous/hesitant (after all you have the carriage moving towards the chuck on its own!), but once you do it, then it is just like any other lathe operation, except it needs a little bit more preparation. 

Threading is not hard to do, but you need to learn how your machine's levers/controls work, and it requires you to practice and do "test" pieces several times before you get the hang of it in your lathe - it helps a lot if you have one of the two parts already available, so you can test fit your threaded part and make adjustments as needed (in my case, re-threading "D" Mags and re-using the tailcap which is already threaded).

Just start a new thread on threading (no pun intended!) and we will chime in and help you as much as possible. Post pictures of your setup so that we can give you specific advice/ideas. Soon enough you will be doing a left-handed metric thread like I recently did


----------



## Clark

I have been cutting threads for 10 years on Clausing and an Atlas lathe.

I spent an hour unpacking the lathe.
I spent 3 hours getting the 1000 pound lathe jacked up in the air and mounted to the pan and stand, and rolling on casters.
I spent 2 hours getting the DRO and power hooked up and making some chips.

I would cut some threads, but I have not figured out how to get the lead screw to turn.


----------



## Clark

I cut threads.
OK, the threads were 48TPI that were supposed to be 12 TPI [teeth per inch].

For those of you still stuck on the outlining planets, the trick is bang the rocks together.
And for threads Z1 is a 48Tooth change gear and Z is a 24Tooth change gear [dirty job].

And the DRO changes all the crossfeed by a factor of 2.


----------



## StrikerDown

wquiles said:


> Threading is not hard to do, but you need to learn how your machine's levers/controls work,


 
Bingo, the instructions are crappy about explaining the feed speed/thread matrix.



Clark said:


> I have been cutting threads for 10 years on Clausing and an Atlas lathe.
> 
> I spent an hour unpacking the lathe.
> I spent 3 hours getting the 1000 pound lathe jacked up in the air and mounted to the pan and stand, and rolling on casters.
> I spent 2 hours getting the DRO and power hooked up and making some chips.
> 
> I would cut some threads, but I have not figured out how to get the lead screw to turn.


 
Now I don't feel so bad... If anyone should have a feel for how to set the dials you should. On my 14 X 40 the manual does not even explain what all of the dial functions are let alone give an example of which would go where to get a particular thread.

Just one example would explain a ton!


----------



## Mirage_Man

StrikerDown said:


> On my 14 X 40 the manual does not even explain what all of the dial functions are let alone give an example of which would go where to get a particular thread.
> 
> Just one example would explain a ton!



I'm a bit confused by this statement. In this picture there appears to be a chart like the one on my machine that shows where to put the knobs for all the pitches :thinking:.

Also on the 12x36 there is a similar chart.

If it's not clear in the manual you put the corresponding knobs in the positions indicated on the chart for whichever thread you want. Most of the common threads should not require a gear change on these machines. Only those at either extreme may. 

The levers at the top of the machine are for spindle speeds and feed direction. The spindle speed and feed direction should never be adjusted while the spindle is turning. The feed and thread pitch knobs almost require the spindle be turning to get them to move from one position to another. At least that's the way it is on my machine.


----------



## StrikerDown

Brian,

on yours it looks like if you want a 20 tpi thread you would set the available dials to c3sy. On the dials the first one is the only dial that has a "c" the second probably has 1, 2, 3 and it is the only dial with numbers. The third dial is the only one with an "s" and the forth is the only one with a "y". The column is labled "F" that might correspond to a lever somewhere on the machine. 

Put the lever to F and the dials to c3sy set your speed and cut depth and engage the feed lever and you cut 20tpi.

Is this kinda sorta how it works (basically)?

On mine most of the dials and levers require the chuck to be jogged a little to move from one to position another. When moving 2 or 3 dials one will change positions easily and another or 2 won't, it just depends where it stops. It is like most machines I have used in that respect.

I'm thinking your chart is simple to read or a lot like ones I have used before. The one on mine I am sure has the info I just have not taken the time to learn the format yet and it is not laid out in a form I am familiar with and since the book does not explain it well, I will need to spend a little time to figure it out thats all. A better set of instructions would help or at least one example of how to set a particular thread pitch would make it easier.

Something else is the charts have what looks like info for imperial lead screw and metric lead screw machines so first I need to figure out which of those I have!


----------



## Mirage_Man

StrikerDown said:


> Brian,
> 
> on yours it looks like if you want a 20 tpi thread you would set the available dials to c3sy. On the dials the first one is the only dial that has a "c" the second probably has 1, 2, 3 and it is the only dial with numbers. The third dial is the only one with an "s" and the forth is the only one with a "y". The column is labled "F" that might correspond to a lever somewhere on the machine.
> 
> Put the lever to F and the dials to c3sy set your speed and cut depth and engage the feed lever and you cut 20tpi.
> 
> Is this kinda sorta how it works (basically)?
> 
> On mine most of the dials and levers require the chuck to be jogged a little to move from one to position another. When moving 2 or 3 dials one will change positions easily and another or 2 won't, it just depends where it stops. It is like most machines I have used in that respect.
> 
> I'm thinking your chart is simple to read or a lot like ones I have used before. The one on mine I am sure has the info I just have not taken the time to learn the format yet and it is not laid out in a form I am familiar with and since the book does not explain it well, I will need to spend a little time to figure it out thats all. A better set of instructions would help or at least one example of how to set a particular thread pitch would make it easier.
> 
> Something else is the charts have what looks like info for imperial lead screw and metric lead screw machines so first I need to figure out which of those I have!



Not knowing who's reading this I don't mean to state the obvious but the levers on the top half of the headstock are to change spindle speeds along with the forward reverse lever. The forward/reverse lever is for feed direction and not to be confused with the spindle forward/reverse which is located on the right hand side of the carriage. The knobs on the bottom half of the headstock are the feeds and pitch adjustments.

"F" on my machine refers to the specific change gear that's currently on the machine. If I need a thread pitch in the "G" column I would have to change that gear to a different number of teeth gear that was supplied with the machine. Like I said before though, most of the common pitches are covered by the "F" gear. Don't ask me how many teeth it has as I don't know off hand. 

"C3SY" does give me a 20TPI. Yes, as with your machine each dial has only a few letters or numbers and are not duplicated on other dials so it should be fairly simple to dial in the feed or pitch you want. On my machine thread pitches are in the table on top of the line. Feeds are on the bottom. Also when I'm in a feed setting the lead screw does not turn. 

Which brings up another point that some may or may not be aware of. On these machines the lead screw is not used for power feed. It's only used for threading. There is a different gear inside the carriage that pulls or pushes it away from the chuck depending on where you have the feed rate dialed in. I can't tell on your machine but I'm guessing that the lever that determines either cross slide feed or carriage feed is engaged by lifting up for cross slide and pushed down for carriage feed. Neutral I would assume is in the middle position? On my old South Bend and many other smaller and or older machines the lead screw is in fact used for both threading and power feed. The disadvantage to this as I understand it is that the lead screw will get worn out much quicker this way.

As to jogging the chuck. I know what you mean and all gear heads are like this to some degree. On mine I can rotate the chuck by hand to get the gears to mesh in whatever speed I want. This however should not be done when the machine is on. Think grinding gears and possibly broken teeth! On the other hand when changing the feeds and pitches you can have the machine running. As I said before it's almost a necessity to have it running to do so. Just don't do it in a really high speed. You kinda wiggle the knobs back and forth while the spindle is turning until the letters and numbers drop into the correct positions. Again this is not for speed changes!

Hope this helps some.


----------



## StrikerDown

I think I have it figured out, I need to get some stock and try it out.







It looks like to cut TPI threads (below) change gears come into play like if I need a 1/4 x 28. AC3U would be the dials, with the 40 & 42 tooth gears installed at the positions indicated to the left in the diagram.





For most of the common threads the standard 40 and 40 tooth gears will yield the tpi on the upper chart. 

What I didn't realize was that 2 of the dials were to the left and 2 are at the top of the matrix. It's just a different layout than yours and what I have used before.

And yes even taking a longer look at the instruction book (misnomer) was no help. Of course it probably didn't help that the instruction book has a different model number on it than my machine!:thinking:

Most of the 20 page manual is wiring diagrams, exploded parts diagrams and how to assemble the parts of the machine that came assembled and very little on how to operate the beast. Oh, 4 pages of safety rules, 2 pages of specifications, 3 pages of cleaning lubrication and setting up.


----------



## StrikerDown

Brian,

I didn't mention the spindle speed lever, it was too easy to figure out, as was the feed direction. You are right about the carriage controls, it sounds like ours are very similar. 

Too many other things have been going on lately, I had not spent any time with the threading functions since I have not needed to cut any threads yet. You shamed me into it!

Thanks.


----------



## wquiles

*Carriage Stop for Precision Matthews 12x36 ...*

Looks easy to build, and it is relatively easy, but to a newbe like me, it took almost all day today to do!

Here were the two references that I had:






The angle measured 55deg:






And here we start:











For the angle I am using the Delta Univise (thanks Barry!):











But the angle in the built-in scales was not right, so I set it manually:






and then we cut! (the Koolant Mist Clone works GREAT!):











I got the angles just right:






and after trimming the point:






Here I am setting up the bottom piece:






After much more cutting/adjusting, I got the parts ready for drilling/tapping:






Here I test the engagement with just the main bolt (8mm):











And here is the completed, adjustable carriage stop. For adjustment, I am using a 6mm screw "bitting" below the centerline of a piece of 1/2" drill rod:































Will


----------



## ICUDoc

*Re: Carriage Stop for Precision Matthews 12x36 ...*

Hi wquiles. Thanks for the pics. Why do you use the set screw to bite below the centreline of the drill rod, instead of on its equator, as it were? Does it give a tighter grip? Thanks for the photos.


----------



## precisionworks

Nice job:thumbsup:

You can usually find Starrett or Mitu mic heads on eBay for under $40, new in box:

http://cgi.ebay.com/MITUTOYO-MICROM...trkparms=65:12|66:2|39:1|72:1205|293:1|294:50

Install one of those in place of the solid rod & adjust to .0001"


----------



## gadget_lover

*Re: Carriage Stop for Precision Matthews 12x36 ...*

I wondered about the setscrew placement too. Was that so you could retrofit it with a cotter arrangement later?

Typically, a micrometer head goes where the drill rod is. I suspect that is not necessary when you have a DRO. I use the DRO to locate the carriage, then snug the stop up against it.

Daniel


----------



## wquiles

Thank you guys 

The 1/2" hole was in fact made to hold a micrometer head - specifically, I will be using the Starrett 263 series which has the 1/2" diameter (3/4" long outer shaft) to match the 1/2" (1.1" long) hole that I cut. I just do not have one yet :naughty:

I needed a functional carriage stop and I did not wanted to wait any longer, so the 1/2" drill rod works fine for now as the DRO helps with the positioning, but it will surely be nicer once I get the micrometer head. 

The offset screw position was something I got from another project I saw in the Internet: I will make a small pin to go into the 6mm set screw hole which will be flat on one side (against the set screw) and with the other side cut to match the oval/curved shape in that 1/2" hole. Then this pin gets pushed by the 6mm set screw, I will get more surface area than just hitting the piece at 90 deg, which should give me added resistance against moving and rotating. A little bit overkill, but I wanted to try it out 

Will


----------



## gadget_lover

wquiles said:


> The offset screw position was something I got from another project I saw in the Internet: I will make a small pin to go into the 6mm set screw hole which will be flat on one side (against the set screw) and with the other side cut to match the oval/curved shape in that 1/2" hole. Then this pin gets pushed by the 6mm set screw, I will get more surface area than just hitting the piece at 90 deg, which should give me added resistance against moving and rotating. A little bit overkill, but I wanted to try it out
> 
> Will



Ah HAH! A Cotter!  I guessed it! I win! 

What's the prize?

I must have read the same project. Will, the quill lock on your mill should be a similar design. The difference is that the pin is drilled and tapped so it is pulled into contact instead of pushed. The difference is that it can be unjammed by rapping against the screw head should it stick.

Daniel


----------



## Clark

Did you notice that the PM1236 manual shows a lathe stop and parts list?
Mine did not come with one.

It likewise shows a follower rest.
It came with that.


So now we are making:
Spider
Chuck cradle
stop


----------



## cmacclel

Whats the use for the carriage stop when you already have a DRO??

Mac


----------



## wquiles

cmacclel said:


> Whats the use for the carriage stop when you already have a DRO??
> 
> Mac



I had a stop on my 7x, and the 8x lathe (also with a DRO) and it really helps, specially some boring operations. I also like to set it when working close to the chuck for an extra safety margin - if you recall I already hit my chuck once - I don't want to do it again 

Will


----------



## cmacclel

wquiles said:


> I had a stop on my 7x, and the 8x lathe (also with a DRO) and it really helps, specially some boring operations. I also like to set it when working close to the chuck for an extra safety margin - if you recall I already hit my chuck once - I don't want to do it again
> 
> Will


 

How would the carriage stop help you when threading?

Mac


----------



## precisionworks

> How would the carriage stop help you when threading?


Some (older) toolroom lathes allow a fixed stop to disengage the feed - and a prox switch or even a microswitch with solenoid could do the same thing on a newer machine.


----------



## cmacclel

precisionworks said:


> Some (older) toolroom lathes allow a fixed stop to disengage the feed - and a prox switch or even a microswitch with solenoid could do the same thing on a newer machine.


 

Yes Barry I know some lathes had a stop that actually disengaged the feed in fact McGizmo said his HLVH can do this while threading. My question should have been how is this stop going to help Will's lathe? If he hits the stop while power feeding it's going to crash.

Mac


----------



## wquiles

cmacclel said:


> How would the carriage stop help you when threading?
> 
> Mac



I wouldn't use the carriage stop when treading. For now, when threading, I am still on my own and would have to manually do everything to prevent a crash 

That being said, once I get the VFD conversion done, and since I will install a breaking resistor, I "could" make some switch-based system similar to what Barry mentions above (although not to disengage the carriage) to use the VFD/breaking resistor to help stop the motor "quick" based on a movable switch/position sensor 

Will


----------



## Clark

If you put a switch in the stop and hooked it up in parallel with the foot brake switch, one could use the stop when threading.


----------



## wquiles

True, you can put the switch/contact to work with any of the 3 breakout circuits in the lathe: main stop, foot brake, or the chuck's safety cover. But the problem is the inertia of the chuck - even when you stop the electrical part, the chuck keeps rotating as the energy is disipated. 

My understanding (and I might be way off on this - Barry please clarify since you know more about this) is that with the VFD + Breaking Resistor you can stop much, much quicker, which would then be ideal to thread to a shoulder.

Will


----------



## cmacclel

wquiles said:


> True, you can put the switch/contact to work with any of the 3 breakout circuits in the lathe: main stop, foot brake, or the chuck's safety cover. But the problem is the inertia of the chuck - even when you stop the electrical part, the chuck keeps rotating as the energy is disipated.
> 
> My understanding (and I might be way off on this - Barry please clarify since you know more about this) is that with the VFD + Breaking Resistor you can stop much, much quicker, which would then be ideal to thread to a shoulder.
> 
> Will


 

Yes a VFD with breal will stop much much quicker but it will still spin how many turn depends on the RPM in which the machine was running. 

Watch the end of this video you can it takes just a second or so to stop with my collet holder but definetly longer with my 50lb 8" chuck. No clue how this would help you threading to a shoulder though.

http://www.vimeo.com/4172912

Hmm maybe not...

http://www.vimeo.com/2822153

Mac


----------



## wquiles

Thanks much for the Videos Mac. The chuck actually stops very quickly compared to my 12x manual lathe - significantly quicker. Since I am threading at much slower speeds, it might actually work in my case, plus with the VFD I can also cut threads even slower than the 68 rpm I use today, so I definitely look forward to the VFD conversion.

Will


----------



## precisionworks

> with the VFD + Braking Resistor you can stop much, much quicker, which would then be ideal to thread to a shoulder.


A VFD in dynamic braking mode will stop the spindle in a heartbeat, but I've never seen anyone thread to a shoulder like that. Pretty much when the cutter is as close as you dare get, disengage the feed & withdraw the tool - just as in any other threading op.


----------



## gadget_lover

The carriage stop helps in a few other ways... 

I did a batch of 30 arc AAA mods for a guy. I needed to make room in the head for his electronics. A collet made if fast to load the heads. A stop in the collet made sure they were the same depth in the collet. The carriage stop allowed me to simply advance the carriage till it stopped, ensuring the same depth in all 30 pieces. No over runs, no under-runs, and no measuring.

I most often use it as Will said, when making cuts close to the chuck. That helps just in case I'm watching the tool instead of the end of the compound slide.

Daniel


----------



## tino_ale

The carriage stop is very interresting. I didn't know it was a precision feature that could be used for actual machining. I thought it was just a safety measure to avoid a hit in the chuck or a shoulder.

Is it an accessory that you can get for any lathe or does it have to be built-in in the lathe?


----------



## gadget_lover

I imagine it could be built into the lathe, but most often it is a block of some kind that clamps to the lathe (usually the ways) firmly. It often has an adjustable rod that screws in and out for fine adjustments. The rod is placed such that the carriage runs into it at the same place every time. 


A carriage stop is designed for gently bumping against the carriage. It will not actually stop a carriage that is under power (such as when threading) unless it's designed such that it trips the lever that closes the half nuts or touches a limit switch that turns off the motor.

If you hit the carriage stop too hard, it's possible to make it move. I ran into that once, finding each part was a few thousandths deeper than the one before. The stop was not clamped tightly enough and I was smacking into it too hard.

Daniel


----------



## tino_ale

So, using some kind of extention that will disengage the threading or power feed can't be as accurate I suppose, right? Or is the repeatabiity good enough to, say, thread to a shoulder with an auto-stop of the feed?


----------



## wquiles

Allright - the Starrett mic came in today (gotta love Ebay) !!!

Besides mounting the Mic, I also tap/drilled a screw to provide with a harder surface for the mic to work against (idea taken from one of those articles I referenced above):

















Will


----------



## gadget_lover

I can't quite tell. Did you face the head of the bolt to provide a consistant surface? Adding the bolt is a good idea, considering the outside of the castings are not designed to be anything special.


Daniel


----------



## wquiles

Yes, good eye. I made flat the bolt's face on the lathe prior to installing it. What is kind of cool is that since I have a DRO, I was able to test the used mic's "performance" - it tracks great!

Will


----------



## cmacclel

wquiles said:


> Yes, good eye. I made flat the bolt's face on the lathe prior to installing it. What is kind of cool is that since I have a DRO, I was able to test the used mic's "performance" - it tracks great!
> 
> Will




Will why the mic? when you have a dro?

Mac


----------



## wquiles

cmacclel said:


> Will why the mic? when you have a dro?
> 
> Mac



Because it is much easier and quicker to adjust the actual position to stop the carriage with the mic than to clamp/unclamp the carriage stop for fine adjustments. 

Just yesterday night I was making a spider for my spindle, and having the mic there was really useful, specially when I had to remove the spider, test, re-install it to cut deeper threads - I was able to reposition and start threads again without damaging the existing threads.

(Daniel - see, I still use your TPI calculator page!)



























Here I am using the stop/mic to "record" the position of the spider relative to the leftmost edge of the thread tool - that along with a mark on the spider matching the "0" on the chuck, allowed me to place the plug back on the same spot as before:











now it fits, even though it was a smaller OD than the one I initially expected - no doubth my own newbie fault!






ID is about 1.34":






I still need to drill/tap the 4 radial screws and then it will be finished 

Will


----------



## Clark

This thread got me to buy a PM1236.
Here is a video, a terrible video, but only a few seconds long, of me using it:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V__FiCGnr08


----------



## wquiles

Clark said:


> This thread got me to buy a PM1236.
> Here is a video, a terrible video, but only a few seconds long, of me using it:
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V__FiCGnr08



Well Clark, sorry about your wallet, but congrats on your PM lathe. Except for the expenses associated with machining, this is a great hobby (or future small business!) 

Will


----------



## tino_ale

Clark said:


> This thread got me to buy a PM1236.
> Here is a video, a terrible video, but only a few seconds long, of me using it:
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V__FiCGnr08



Watching the video it sounds like the lathe is quite loud. How is it in person? Need to raise your voice to communicate?


----------



## cmacclel

tino_ale said:


> Watching the video it sounds like the lathe is quite loud. How is it in person? Need to raise your voice to communicate?



That is the only thing I dislike about gear "driven" lathes. All I have come across are loud. Both machines I have now are belt driven and very quite.


Mac


----------



## Clark

As with most lathes, it is quiet a sewing machine as long as the lead screw is not being driven by the non beveled gears outside the gear box.

At the spindle speeds that threads are cut, the lead screw gears are not that bad, but if left engaged and the spindle put on full speed, the PM1236 screams like other lathes in that state. That noise happens with a round nose bit, making a finishing cut, with the lead screw feeding the tool. I wear hearing protectors for that cut.


The exception:
My Clausing 5914 had a variable ratio belt drive that was so loud, I could not hear the gears.


----------



## wquiles

cmacclel said:


> That is the only thing I dislike about gear "driven" lathes. All I have come across are loud. Both machines I have now are belt driven and very quite.
> 
> 
> Mac






Clark said:


> As with most lathes, it is quiet a sewing machine as long as the lead screw is not being driven by the non beveled gears outside the gear box.
> 
> At the spindle speeds that threads are cut, the lead screw gears are not that bad, but if left engaged and the spindle put on full speed, the PM1236 screams like other lathes in that state. That noise happens with a round nose bit, making a finishing cut, with the lead screw feeding the tool. I wear hearing protectors for that cut.
> 
> 
> The exception:
> My Clausing 5914 had a variable ratio belt drive that was so loud, I could not hear the gears.



+1 The geared lathe is definitely louder than my prior purely belt driven lathes. Although not "really loud", since my hearing is "very" sensitive, every single time I use my lathe I use hearing protection (I never did on the 7x nor 8x). The only time I don't have to use hearing protection is when doing threading, since at 68 RPM the lathe is not that loud. However, on my knee mill (belt driven) it is much quieter and I don't wear any hearing protection unless the particular cut happens to be noisy


----------



## cmacclel

wquiles said:


> +1 The geared lathe is definitely louder than my prior purely belt driven lathes. Although not "really loud", since my hearing is "very" sensitive, every single time I use my lathe I use hearing protection (I never did on the 7x nor 8x). The only time I don't have to use hearing protection is when doing threading, since at 68 RPM the lathe is not that loud. However, on my knee mill (belt driven) it is much quieter and I don't wear any hearing protection unless the particular cut happens to be noisy


 

I use to thread with the Grizzly at 220rpm. You must have good control that slow. My first machines slowest speed was 160 so 220 was not much faster.

Mac


----------



## wquiles

cmacclel said:


> I use to thread with the Grizzly at 220rpm. You must have good control that slow. My first machines slowest speed was 160 so 220 was not much faster.
> 
> Mac



Yes, and it was even easier on the 8x machine that I converted to variable speed since the 1HP DC Motor had great torque at even slower speeds (20-30 RPM). In fact, when I started threading on the PM12x36 it took me a while to get used to given the "higher" threading speed


----------



## StrikerDown

Will,

I found just the machine for you!

http://www.machinetoolonline.com/PM2260CNCLathe.html

Matt is willing to deal!


----------



## gadget_lover

StrikerDown said:


> Will,
> 
> I found just the machine for you!
> 
> http://www.machinetoolonline.com/PM2260CNCLathe.html
> 
> Matt is willing to deal!



I looked at that thing and realized it was as big as my LazyBoy recliner. Then I realized that was probably a good thing, since My wife would have me sleeping there if I bought one.

Daniel


----------



## wquiles

My wife is totally awesome - a married a great woman. That being said, I am not going to even mention to her this "upgrade" machine to her - I don't want to push my luck


----------



## Greebe

I have one of these lathes. Overall I like it but it does have one major problem.

Since day one it leaks oil like crazy. Every gear box that has oil leaks very bad. The headstock leaks onto the motor, the feedbox leaks onto the chip pan, and the apron leaks onto the chip pan as well.

The feedbox leaks so stinking bad that I have to top it up regularly. Then I end up with fluid all over the chip pan which then contaminates my coolant.

It kind of pi$$es me off to pay $3500 for a new machine and have it leaking like an old car with a cracked block.

I contacted Matt about this several times and all he said was that that was a common problem and that I should tear the whole thing down and replace all the seals. Right....., maybe I should get a discount for having to rebuild a brand new lathe.

Anyways does yours leak like a sieve?

Thanks
Greebe


----------



## wquiles

Greebe said:


> I have one of these lathes. Overall I like it but it does have one major problem.
> 
> Since day one it leaks oil like crazy. Every gear box that has oil leaks very bad. The headstock leaks onto the motor, the feedbox leaks onto the chip pan, and the apron leaks onto the chip pan as well.
> 
> The feedbox leaks so stinking bad that I have to top it up regularly. Then I end up with fluid all over the chip pan which then contaminates my coolant.
> 
> It kind of pi$$es me off to pay $3500 for a new machine and have it leaking like an old car with a cracked block.
> 
> I contacted Matt about this several times and all he said was that that was a common problem and that I should tear the whole thing down and replace all the seals. Right....., maybe I should get a discount for having to rebuild a brand new lathe.
> 
> Anyways does yours leak like a sieve?
> 
> Thanks
> Greebe



Greebe,

No, mine does not leak like yours. I have really small leaks in a few spots, but not even close to that you describe. What SAE fluid are you using in your lathe? I wonder if it is possible that the fluid you are using is too thin for the seals in your lathe?

I have tried a few fluids, and so far I am happiest with this one:
Mobil DTE Heavy/Medium ISO 68

When I did the first fill, I tried a hydraulic fluid that was too thin and I had a little more leaking, still nowhere near your description, but it is work a try.

How much fluid do you add when you change it? Have you opened the main gear case cover to take a look at the level? I have read that most all lathes will leave if/when overfilled, so that is potentially something else to look about.

I have been in contact with 5-6 more folks that have the same PM1236, and none of them report the type of leaks you are mentioning here, so you might in fact have a lemon, but I would still try the heavier fluid I mentioned above before taking any other/more drastic measures. 

Good luck - keep us posted 

Will


----------



## Greebe

Thanks for the reply.

I put ISO 68 hdro oil it in. That is what Matt recommended to me.

I did overfill it the last time I topped it up and that made it leak a lot faster. If I don't top up the machine it will leak down almost dry.

Overall it is a nice machine, but this issue is really starting to make me unhappy. From what I hear Matt is good to deal with, but I feel he should have done more for me about this problem other than telling me to dissemble the whole thing and rebuild it.

I just emailed him today again to convey my dissatisfaction with this issue. I don't know what he could do to fix it. I guess I feel like either he could send someone to fix the problem or refund some of my money for me to do it on my own time with my own replacement costs.

I equate it with buying a new car. If the day you dive it off the lot and get it home and it is leaking all over you garage floor something is wrong and you take it back to the dealer to have "them" fit it. They wouldn't say, " just disassemble the engine and fix it yourself." You know what I mean.

Thanks again for listening.

Greebe


----------



## wquiles

Greebe said:


> Thanks for the reply.
> 
> I put ISO 68 hdro oil it in. That is what Matt recommended to me.
> 
> I did overfill it the last time I topped it up and that made it leak a lot faster. If I don't top up the machine it will leak down almost dry.
> 
> Overall it is a nice machine, but this issue is really starting to make me unhappy. From what I hear Matt is good to deal with, but I feel he should have done more for me about this problem other than telling me to dissemble the whole thing and rebuild it.
> 
> I just emailed him today again to convey my dissatisfaction with this issue. I don't know what he could do to fix it. I guess I feel like either he could send someone to fix the problem or refund some of my money for me to do it on my own time with my own replacement costs.
> 
> I equate it with buying a new car. If the day you dive it off the lot and get it home and it is leaking all over you garage floor something is wrong and you take it back to the dealer to have "them" fit it. They wouldn't say, " just disassemble the engine and fix it yourself." You know what I mean.
> 
> Thanks again for listening.
> 
> Greebe



Ahh man, that is the right thickness, so yes, your lathe is most definitely not right. One or more seals have to be in really bad shape for the lathe to leak so bad. 

I agree with you 110% - Matt should try to work something with you. For you to simply try to fix it yourself is not what I would call reasonable.

Keep working with him, and keep us posted. If I can be of any help, or need to look/compare/measure anything, please don't hesitate to contact me here in the forum, or by email (email in my signature).

Will


----------



## wquiles

By the way, I recently opened up the main gear box for a look and a full cleaning after 11 months of very heavy hobby use:











As I expected, there was some debris at the bottom - probably there from day one, or during initial break-in period:











Here is that debris on a clean paper towel:






After cleaning, I put too very strong hard drive magnets at the bottom to try to collect future particles:






And I refilled with this, which is heavier than what I had before (ISO 40 or so) - the lathe is quieter now 






Will


----------



## darkzero

Will, can you confirm if the tail stock has a horizontal slot for the tang on the end of a taper to prevent spinning as larger machines do? Or is this only a feature found on American iron? The 8x14 does not have this feature & I really have to make sure the taper is seated tight before use.


----------



## StrikerDown

darkzero said:


> Will, can you confirm if the tail stock has a horizontal slot for the tang on the end of a taper to prevent spinning as larger machines do? Or is this only a feature found on American iron? The 8x14 does not have this feature & I really have to make sure the taper is seated tight before use.



My PM 14X40 does not have a slot in the tail stock although the male MT's do have the tang, my guess is that the 12X36 does not either. Will has been known to cut the flat tang off of the end of his Morse tapers to get a little extra retraction of the tail stock for those extra long flashlight bodies!

When I seat a chuck mounted on the MT I retract the jaws into the chuck and give it a good smack with a dead blow to seat it and prevent it from spinning.


----------



## wquiles

StrikerDown said:


> My PM 14X40 does not have a slot in the tail stock although the male MT's do have the tang, my guess is that the 12X36 does not either. Will has been known to cut the flat tang off of the end of his Morse tapers to get a little extra retraction of the tail stock for those extra long flashlight bodies!
> 
> When I seat a chuck mounted on the MT I retract the jaws into the chuck and give it a good smack with a dead blow to seat it and prevent it from spinning.



Correct on all counts. I just came back from the "shop" to look, and sure enough, there is no slot for the 3MT in the PM1236 tailstock :sigh:

Will


----------



## precisionworks

> When I seat a chuck mounted on the MT I retract the jaws into the chuck and give it a good smack with a dead blow


+1

I use a 5# copper hammer, but the effect is the same. Once a taper shank spins in the bore, both parts get scored, which means reaming the bore. My lathe has a hardened tail stock ram which means slow & hard reaming, but it works well when done.

The dead blow hammer can also be used to seat a live center IF you machine a cap to fit over the center so that nothing can touch the point.


----------



## darkzero

Thanks for confirming. Just trying to get an idea if I should buy new tapers with tangs on them for the new lathe. Guess I won't need to for now. 

I have followed in Will's footsteps & also cut the tang off my tapers. I assume it's for the same reason that Will does but I cut the tang off to "gain" travel for the tailstock. I can't work with long Mags on my 8x14 anyway so that's not the reason. Without cutting them to length I can't even get close to zero. I cut them to length to the point where they will push the taper out just as it pasts zero so I can make full use of the travel indicated. Need all the tailstock travel I can get on my mini, I've ran out plenty of times! 

How much travel does the tailstock have on the PM1236?

I even went overboard & made a "plug" with an old unused taper to help keep the tailstock free of chips & harmful debris. Probably unecessary but it was an excuse to use the lathe that day.


----------



## StrikerDown

Not a bad idea, those errant chips can bring disaster!

I usually don't have work long enough to get near the tail stock on the 40 incher naughty but I leave the drill chuck in the tail stock just in case.


----------



## darkzero

StrikerDown said:


> Not a bad idea, those errant chips can bring disaster!
> 
> I usually don't have work long enough to get near the tail stock on the 40 incher naughty but I leave the drill chuck in the tail stock just in case.


 
Show off! :nana: I bet my entire 814 would fit in between the centers on your 1440. :laughing: That would be a cool photo to see.

If I leave a drill chuck or even a live center in my tailstock I can't work comfortably (well comfortably for what it is). Sometimes I feel like just removing the entire tailstock from the ways but that can become too much of a hassle. Man I'm so glad I will have something larger soon.


----------



## StrikerDown

darkzero said:


> Show off! :nana: I bet my entire 814 would fit in between the centers on your 1440. :laughing: That would be a cool photo to see.



Sorry, you will love your 12X36! That would be a cool photo.



darkzero said:


> If I leave a drill chuck or even a live center in my tailstock I can't work comfortably (well comfortably for what it is). Sometimes I feel like just removing the entire tailstock from the ways but that can become too much of a hassle. Man I'm so glad I will have something larger soon.



I used to pull the tail on my 7X10. (not just to tease it either) It was fun to learn on but really cramped. Did I mention you will love the bigger machine!


----------



## wquiles

darkzero said:


> How much travel does the tailstock have on the PM1236?


I think the "printed" range is about 4 inches, but the "real" range is right around 3.5". But several times it would have been useful to have more range in the tailstock, specially when doing long Delrin battery spacers.




darkzero said:


> If I leave a drill chuck or even a live center in my tailstock I can't work comfortably ...


On my 12x I not only leave the tailstock in the lathe, I leave the drill chuck there all of the time as well. The extra range is just awesome when the bed is 36" long - even working on a 6D mag was very easy


----------



## StrikerDown

Huh, just checked mine, it's only 3.3" from the stop to MT ejection. 
Will, how much stroke do you gain by cutting off the flat tang? Or should I ask how much can you cut off and still eject the taper shank?


----------



## wquiles

I just kept cutting a little at a time until it would fit in, but I don't remember how much total end up cutting. My drill chuck ejects right now almost exactly at the zero mark, but the live end releases earlier than that by a 100-200 mills or so.


----------



## darkzero

StrikerDown said:


> Sorry, you will love your 12X36! That would be a cool photo.
> 
> I used to pull the tail on my 7X10. (not just to tease it either) It was fun to learn on but really cramped. Did I mention you will love the bigger machine!


 
By all means, no apologies necessary. Was all in good fun. I don't feel so bad as I know it won't be an issue any more. 

I don't reget buying the 8x14. I still think it's a great lathe & it has taught me alot. Without it I would never have found my love for machining which I really enjoy. My only regret is that I will have to part with it.

To note, I came across a post where one stated that the 8x14 is so much better in quality than the other HF lathes (even their larger sizes) cause it's said to have been made by the same factory that produces some of PM's lathes. I don't necessarily believe this, I think it's more like the 8x14 uses more parts that are made from the factories that makes some of the parts for these other "better" lathes. For example. look at the thread dial on the PM1236 & the HF/LM 814, they look the same. There are other parts of the smaller PM lathes that also share a resemblance.




wquiles said:


> I think the "printed" range is about 4 inches, but the "real" range is right around 3.5". But several times it would have been useful to have more range in the tailstock, specially when doing long Delrin battery spacers.
> 
> On my 12x I not only leave the tailstock in the lathe, I leave the drill chuck there all of the time as well. The extra range is just awesome when the bed is 36" long - even working on a 6D mag was very easy


 

Oh man, I can't wait! 





StrikerDown said:


> Huh, just checked mine, it's only 3.3" from the stop to MT ejection.
> Will, how much stroke do you gain by cutting off the flat tang? Or should I ask how much can you cut off and still eject the taper shank?


 
I think this will vary depending on your machine & your arbors. I've cut down 4 arbors which were all different "brands" & the amount needed to be cut off to reach the same ejection point varied. For example, you can see the three that I posted in the pic earlier. Well unless of course you tailstock is the same as Will's 1236 & you are using MT3 Jacobs arbors.



Do live center's ever have tangs? I don't see why they would need one though as I don't see how you could spin one at the taper.


----------



## StrikerDown

darkzero said:


> Do live center's ever have tangs? I don't see why they would need one though as I don't see how you could spin one at the taper.



Mine don't, neither do my dead centers. But they are cheap Chinese items so that doesn't mean much!


----------



## precisionworks

There isn't a single tang in this 32 page catalog:

http://www.royalprod.com/img/category/upload/Pages_41_72.pdf

As long as the outside of the taper on the center & the inside of the taper in the tail stock are in good shape, the pressure of extending the tail stock ram into the part is plenty. The exception to that is when very little pressure is being applied to a thin part, then you'll want to be sure the center is well seated in the bore.


----------



## psient

My 2 cents::twothumbs

Just ordered the 13X40 from Matt. Should be here next week!

Just bought the leveling feet for it.

Jon


----------



## wquiles

psient said:


> My 2 cents::twothumbs
> 
> Just ordered the 13X40 from Matt. Should be here next week!
> 
> Just bought the leveling feet for it.
> 
> Jon



Very cool - congrats!


----------



## StrikerDown

psient said:


> My 2 cents::twothumbs
> 
> Just ordered the 13X40 from Matt. Should be here next week!
> 
> Just bought the leveling feet for it.
> 
> Jon




You :devil:!

Way too cool, congrats and keep us posted. With pictures too!


----------



## alexmin

Guys what is the motor shaft diameter on PM1236?
I consider getting it and replacing single phase motor with 3 phase one.
Hopefully I can find a 3 phase motor with the same shaft diameter(so I can use the same pulley) that will work with my KBAC-27D VFD


----------



## wquiles

alexmin said:


> Guys what is the motor shaft diameter on PM1236?
> I consider getting it and replacing single phase motor with 3 phase one.
> Hopefully I can find a 3 phase motor with the same shaft diameter(so I can use the same pulley) that will work with my KBAC-27D VFD



Welcome to the forums 

I can check on my PM1236 when I get home, but I don't think trying to find a motor with the right shaft diameter to match the PM1236 is necessary when you can buy/get a new sheave/pulley that matches standard diameter motors, like the one I used here in my VFD conversion:

















Information here:
http://www.baldor.com/products/PowerTransmission/sheaves.asp

specifically, I think these are the ones that would fit this specific application:
http://www.baldor.com/products/PowerTransmission/catalog/Sheaves/Light%20Duty/Fixed%20Bore.pdf

Will


----------



## alexmin

Will,

I agree. 
Is it 4L V-belt pulley?
thanks for your welcome and pictures. 

Thanks,
Alex


----------



## precisionworks

> I don't think trying to find a motor with the right shaft diameter to match the PM1236 is necessary


+1

Every power transmission supply carries Browning sheaves, both in fixed bore and in bushed bore. It's just a matter of deciding which you want. Call your nearest Motion Industries, or stop by, and they'll either have it in stock or be able to get it for you within a few days.



> work with my KBAC-27D


Nice drive :twothumbs

NEMA-4X/IP-65 so you can mount it anywhere without fear of electronic suicide. Pretty important on a lathe or mill where the chips can spray out like water from a garden hose, especially on cast iron or aluminum.


----------



## alexmin

I have just ordered a PM1236 + DRO from Precision Matthews
He gave me 5% discount for pre-ordering(He does not have it in stock right now). 
Also I am getting 5c collet chuck + inch collet set from the same source.
I could probably find similar chuck somewhere else cheaper but with Matt at least I know it is reasonably decent and fits my lathe.


----------



## precisionworks

> just ordered a PM1236 *+ DRO* from Precision Matthews ... Also I am getting the *5c collet chuck* + *inch collet set* from the same source.



Showoff 

That will be a seriously nice machine, especially with the DRO. I keep wanting to pull the trigger on a 5C collet chuck but haven't yet. Will (and Will) are both going to put that on the Santa List


----------



## darkzero

alexmin, congrats on the new purchase, you will love it as the others have told me. Just viewing this/Will's thread you will see (one of the best threads IMO here in this subforum). Looks like we're all waiting for the same shipment which should be soon. Lucky for you your wait won't be as long as mine & the others before me. Have you got an update on the shipment? I haven't talked to Matt in a few weeks, don't want to get more anxious. 




precisionworks said:


> I keep wanting to pull the trigger on a 5C collet chuck but haven't yet. Will (and Will) are both going to put that on the Santa List


 
You know, after using the collet closures & chucks in shop class, I've grown to love the easy & repeatability of using collets. Looking at the threaded end of the spindle I had hoped there may be a collet closure attachment for it (and a taper attachment). But looking at it closely I don't think there is as there's no mount for the pivot. I'm assuming the threaded end is only for a spider attachment, haven't actually verified with Matt though.

So assuming it doesn't have a collet closure attachment, I've had my eye on a Bison set-tru 5C collet chuck, might as well go all out with the least amount of TIR as possible if using collets. The price is not bad compared to a 6 jaw set tru. But just the thought of building a nice comfortable set of collets is expensive! So now that Barry has mentioned it :whoopin: it's definitely on my list but not for a while. I'm sure the 6 jaw set tru will hold me over with out one for a long time.

Thanks Barry!  :shakehead

The other Will 

P.S. Going back on the taper attachment, is that something that might be possible to adapt to this machine? http://www.machinetools4sale.com/shop/category.asp?catid=742


----------



## wquiles

Well for me, at least so far, I have zero interest in a collet chuck. My 6-jaw set-tru Bison works so well (less than 0.0005" tir for me) that I have not had the need for anything that would offer higher precision. Again, not "yet" :devil:


----------



## darkzero

I guess it really depends on the type of work you do. I'm lucky to have been able to "play" with collets. Had I not I would never really know some of their advantages & would probably never even think of investing that kind of money for the setup.

The 6 jaw set-tru is awesome as you guys have told me & the low TIR is great. But even though there are times where I need to rechuck the piece a few times to actually get minimal round out especially when the clamping area of the piece is very short. With a collet this is not so much of an issue. With the collet it's also very quick & easy if you need to remove the piece for measurement or fitment numerous of times. I could also see the collet as best choice if you were making multiples of something. I may be off & I know there's lots more I'm missing but this is just my perspective after using them.

I currently mostly work on flashlights. So with the mods I do the stuff I work on is rarely consistent & I find the Bison 6 jaw is best for me because of this. I could also understand where a collet would be "king" if one did not have a $1K+ set-tru or adjust-tru type 6 jaw chuck as many of us do. However as I aim to progress I plan on doing a lot more of other type of stuff rather than just lights as I have already started to persue. So again, the Bison 6 jaw will hold me off for a while. 

In shop class with the old american iron & 10"+ chucks that aren't so great, nothing comes close to the collets. The 3 jaws are mainly only used to "semi face & drill centers. The work is then completed using collets or turning between centers. Sure there are 4 jaw chucks but they tend to be even larger & a lot heavier than the 3 jaws. Plus they're not the easiest to set up if you're not very familiar with them already. I hate using them but I won't hesitate to as I need to learn using them/setting them up.


----------



## precisionworks

> My 6-jaw set-tru Bison works so well ...have not had the need for anything that would offer higher precision.



It isn't only the precision, or lowest TIR. All lathe chucks, no matter the number of jaws, have contact with the work that is measured in square millimeters, and not even many of those. A correctly made collet, of proper size, has nearly 100% contact with cylindrical work - more contact area means that less pressure is required to keep the part from slipping while machining.

Probably the best example is drilling a hole with the milling machine. Install a nice chuck in the spindle (Albrecht comes to mind) and TIR is next to nothing, but only three tiny jaw faces contact the drill shank. Take the chuck out & replace it with an R-8 collet or an ER collet & the shank contact goes to nearly 100%. For the same reason that collets are better than a drill chuck, they are likewise better than a lathe chuck _for many operations._ If you've never used one, consider yourself lucky since you don't know what you're missing 

On top of that, the working end of a collet chuck is smooth as glass, which allows placing a hand in close proximity to the work ... don't even think about that with any chuck that has jaws. They are a simple & elegant solution to the centuries old challenge of lathe fixturing.


----------



## alexmin

precisionworks said:


> Showoff



I am :nana:


----------



## bluwolf

alexmin said:


> I have just ordered a PM1236 + DRO from Precision Matthews
> He gave me 5% discount for pre-ordering(He does not have it in stock right now).


 
Congrats on the new lathe. I'm still waiting for mine also. Maybe you, Will, (darkzero) and I should have gone to Matt for a group discount

Mike


----------



## wquiles

precisionworks said:


> It isn't only the precision, or lowest TIR. All lathe chucks, no matter the number of jaws, have contact with the work that is measured in square millimeters, and not even many of those. A correctly made collet, of proper size, has nearly 100% contact with cylindrical work - more contact area means that less pressure is required to keep the part from slipping while machining.
> 
> Probably the best example is drilling a hole with the milling machine. Install a nice chuck in the spindle (Albrecht comes to mind) and TIR is next to nothing, but only three tiny jaw faces contact the drill shank. Take the chuck out & replace it with an R-8 collet or an ER collet & the shank contact goes to nearly 100%. For the same reason that collets are better than a drill chuck, they are likewise better than a lathe chuck _for many operations._ If you've never used one, consider yourself lucky since you don't know what you're missing
> 
> On top of that, the working end of a collet chuck is smooth as glass, which allows placing a hand in close proximity to the work ... don't even think about that with any chuck that has jaws. They are a simple & elegant solution to the centuries old challenge of lathe fixturing.



Point taken. I think if I were always working on the diameter range that the 5C collet would support (up to slightly over an inch), then I can see advantages to having one as you outlined above. 

But in my case, for most of the flashlight work I do today, I need to freely and quickly move from over 2" to about 0.3" and everything in between very quickly to efficiently use my time in the "shop". 

If I had to remove the 5C collet chuck every time I needed to move past the collet range, and then remount the 6-jaw 6" chuck to do the operation, and then to go back to the 5C collet chuck - I would probably loose my sanity (whatever is left) on the first day  . In fact, I would rather have a second smaller lathe setup just for the 5C collet than to even consider changing from the 5C chuck to my 6-jaw chuck and viceversa in my 12x since with the 5C collet I would not need the 1.6" spindle opening anyway.

For now, I am sticking with my Bison 6-jaw 

Will


----------



## cmacclel

wquiles said:


> If I had to remove the 5C collet chuck every time I needed to move past the collet range, and then remount the 6-jaw 6" chuck to do the operation, and then to go back to the 5C collet chuck - I would probably loose my sanity (whatever is left) on the first day  .
> Will




That's why my $1000 setup has only been on the machine twice in a year. I didn't even use it with my EDC run which uses 1" stock. The problem is unless you buy double the cost *ground* stock using collets stink! One day I order 1" stock it comes in at 1.008 the next order it's 1.002 ETC. My last batch of 1" Titanium came in at ".999 my last order came in at "1.009.

Mac


----------



## precisionworks

> A correctly made collet, *of proper size*,


Collets are often used on a second op lathe, after all the primary dimensions (like OD) are machined on the first op lathe. The ideal fit is size on size, and next best is to have the work a few thousandths _smaller _than collet size. Larger stock will not work well, if at all, in a collet.


----------



## niner

I'm going to make a custom drawbar for my mill. It is hard to get a good grip on 1/2" stock with scroll chuck, even with a Bison 6-jaws. 5C chuck would be much better choice?


----------



## cmacclel

niner said:


> I'm going to make a custom drawbar for my mill. It is hard to get a good grip on 1/2" stock with scroll chuck, even with a Bison 6-jaws. 5C chuck would be much better choice?




What exactly is your problem?

Mac


----------



## alexmin

Guys,

does anyone know what is the motor frame mount on PM1236 lathe?
I've asked Matt. He gave me "Y-L90-4" 
I don't think it is a [FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Swiss,SunSans-Regular]NEMA [/FONT]standard motor size.
Since I'll be replacing it with 3 phase one I want to buy a motor with the same mount and avoid making a mounting adapter.

BTW Judging from the pictures the motor on PM1236 looks HUGE :duck:

I plan to buy the same motor (Leeson 2ph, 3 phase, TEFC) I have on my KMG belt grinder right now. 
These motors work great with my VFD and they are much smaller than the motor on PM 1236.

Is there anything special about standard motor on PM1236 that makes it so big?


----------



## wquiles

The motor in my PM1236 does not look that big to me. The 1.5 HP motor that I took off from my knee mill (replaced by a Baldor 3HP, 3HP) seemed to me bigger than the 2HP motor in my lathe.

Here are a few pictures I took from my machine just now. The yellow cable is the 220V into the control pannel; the white is the 220V going to the motor:






As you can see the motor is already using a mounting adaptor, which then mounts to the main lathe's body:






3 bolts attach the motor/adapter to the lathe:






these are the two top bolts that attach the motor to the adapter:






and these are the bottom two bolts that attach the motor to the adapter:






The adapter plate is about 6 inches deep and about 7 inches tall:






and the adapter is approx. 2 and 1/4" wide:






This is the dual, dual speed sheave:











Will


----------



## alexmin

Will,

thank you for the pictures. 
What is the vertical and horizontal distance between mounting holes on the motor frame?
I'll try find matching NEMA frame motor mounting.

Thanks,
Alex


----------



## unterhausen

misreading


----------



## alexmin

I've talked to Matt again. 

It is *Y90L-4* metric IEC motor.

I've checked some reference material online and it looks like this particular motor should have:
shaft: 24"(.945")
foot mount type *B3*
B3 mount has distance between mounting holes 140mm(5.5") across motor axis 
and 125mm(4.9") along motor axis.

v-belt type: *A787*


----------



## wquiles

alexmin said:


> Will,
> 
> thank you for the pictures.
> What is the vertical and horizontal distance between mounting holes on the motor frame?
> I'll try find matching NEMA frame motor mounting.
> 
> Thanks,
> Alex



I just measured mine as best as I could while mounted, and I got:

front to back between bolt centers = 5"

side to side between bolt centers = 5.5"


----------



## alexmin

wquiles said:


> I just measured mine as best as I could while mounted, and I got:
> 
> front to back between bolt centers = 5"
> 
> side to side between bolt centers = 5.5"



Sounds like we nailed it 

Here is two motors that should perfectly fit onto PM1236 mounting plate
and you still will be able to use the same sheave, pulley and belts:

*Baldor MM3558*
https://www.baldorvip.com/VIP/productInformation/MM3558.pdf
*Leeson 192071*
http://www.clrwtr.com/PDF/LEESON/LEESON-Metric-IEC-Motors.pdf


----------



## precisionworks

Here's an IEC motor dimension chart: http://www.motorsanddrives.com/cowern/tbl29.html

That site says _[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Swiss,SunSans-Regular]The bolt pattern on the bases of IEC motors are given as metric dimensions and it is impossible to get complete interchangeability with NEMA frame sizes. However, it is usually possible on foot mounted motors to adapt to domestic frame sizes by drilling new holes or making other accommodation to accept the different footprint of the NEMA frame motor. [/FONT]_


----------



## alexmin

precisionworks said:


> Here's an IEC motor dimension chart: http://www.motorsanddrives.com/cowern/tbl29.html
> 
> That site says _[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Swiss,SunSans-Regular]The bolt pattern on the bases of IEC motors are given as metric dimensions and it is impossible to get complete interchangeability with NEMA frame sizes. However, it is usually possible on foot mounted motors to adapt to domestic frame sizes by drilling new holes or making other accommodation to accept the different footprint of the NEMA frame motor. [/FONT]_



The two motors I found are IEC(metric) and should fit mounting of original Y90L motor exactly.


----------



## wquiles

alexmin said:


> Sounds like we nailed it
> 
> Here is two motors that should perfectly fit onto PM1236 mounting plate
> and you still will be able to use the same sheave, pulley and belts:
> 
> *Baldor MM3558*
> https://www.baldorvip.com/VIP/productInformation/MM3558.pdf
> *Leeson 192071*
> http://www.clrwtr.com/PDF/LEESON/LEESON-Metric-IEC-Motors.pdf



I bought a brand new Baldor 5HP 3PH on Ebay for about $150 which I will use in my VFD conversion, but this Baldor 5HP motor (M3615T, Frame 184T) has mounting holes that are farther spaced out than the adapter plate's mounting holes (stock=5x5.5, new=5.5x7.5), so again I will be using a 3/8" steel adapter plate to mate the motor to the adapter. Of course I will also need a new sheave for the 1 and 1/8" dia shaft (the stock dia is about .94"). This is of course, assuming the 5HP motor even fits in there, as it is quite a bid wider and a little longer than the original motor - an interesting project for sure.

Will


----------



## precisionworks

> The two motors I found are IEC(metric) and should fit mounting of original Y90L motor exactly.



Of the four VFD conversions I've done so far, not a single 3ph motor fit directly in place of the 1ph motor. Life would be a lot easier if the 1ph motor was unbolted, the 3ph motor bolted right back in, and the VFD was wired. As you noted, there are at least two NEMA frame motors that are drop in replacements for the IEC motor that is standard on that machine. Those two may - or may not - be the ones you want to use.

If you go with only the Baldor MM3558 or the Leeson 192071, you have to find one of those exact motors. Not that you can't, but you probably want to find it at a good price. If you can broaden the search criteria, there will be many more motors to look at (even though you may have to make a transition plate) and you may find one at a lower price.

My VFD's all drive 3hp motors, as 3hp is the largest (cheap) VFD that will run on 1ph input. If low priced drives were available for 5hp with 1ph input, all my motors would be 5hp. When a motor is controlled by a freq drive, motor hp is proportional to motor speed ... full speed = full hp, half speed = half hp, one tenth speed = one tenth hp. Torque does however remain constant to about 1/60 of full speed, meaning the motor produces full torque to about 30 shaft rpm (on a 1800 rpm motor). Since torque is constant, it makes sense to start with as much torque as possible. A motor with nominal speed of 1800 rpm produces 3 ft-lbs per hp, so a 2hp motor makes 6 ft-lbs, 3hp makes 9 ft-lbs. 

I'm not trying to suggest that every machine needs 3hp to work. My drill press conversion is most likely overkill, as it had a 1/2 hp motor. But the new motor does allow the spindle to be slowed to 70 rpm & easily push a 1" twist drill through any thickness of mild steel that will fit in the vise. On most machine tools, a bigger motor is worth considering when changing to a VFD.


----------



## alexmin

One thing for sure, there is never too much power. Unfortunately my VFD goes only up to 2 HP. If I were buying my VFD today I would go for one with more HPs. 

Do you guys know if there is any specific motor characteristic that makes 3 phase motor compatible with VFD? I know that some older motors are not recommended to use with VFD.

BTW My drill press also was upgraded to 1.5HP motor


----------



## precisionworks

> any specific motor characteristic that makes 3 phase motor compatible with VFD?



Any 3ph motor will run with a freq drive, even those made nearly 100 years ago, but some motors do work better than others.

The most rugged 3ph motor (for almost any application) is the TENV (totally enclosed non ventilated). There is no external cooling fan, so the motor is dead quiet even if run at 150% of nameplate rpm - which is the max speed setting for all my drives. All the heat built up inside the motor is transferred through a heavy motor shell, sometimes with fins, which allow radiation & convection to cool the motor. TENV motors have either Class F or Class H insulation, which are the two highest temp NEMA insulation classes. If you look at Baldor.com, their "general purpose" TENV motors go up to only 1.5 hp, but their "vector drive" motors are available to 20 hp. The vector motors are a little pricey ... the 3 hp ZDNM3661T retails for $2984. 

Much more common (and less costly) is the TEFC (totally enclosed fan cooled). The external cooling fan is pretty noisy at full motor rpm, & really loud at 150% of full rpm. Since this style motor is dependent on fan cooling, it can overheat if run below full rpm, and quite a few users install a muffin fan or other type of auxiliary cooling fan that runs at full speed at all times (not VFD driven).

The least expensive motor is the ODP (open drip proof). Available with high temp Class F insulation, this style has an internal fan which draws air through the motor housing. It has the same low speed issues at the TEFC. Because air (and dirt, dust, lint, etc.) are drawn through the motor, it less desirable than the TEFC for machine tool use. If this is the motor on your machine, motor life can be extended by blowing compressed air through the windings on a regular basis.

Some manufacturers would like to have customers believe that every VFD requires a vector drive motor. Problem is, NEMA has yet to define vector drive motor which means that the manufacturer can designate any motor as a vector drive or inverter drive motor. Baldor makes a big deal about their ISR insulation, which is rated for 200°C, but almost every big name motor company uses similar or identical magnet wire. Their vector drive booklet is a good read, as long as you remember that it is a paid political advertisement 

http://www.baldor.com/pdf/literature/BR400_1106.pdf


----------



## wquiles

precisionworks said:


> Any 3ph motor will run with a freq drive, even those made nearly 100 years ago, but some motors do work better than others.
> 
> The most rugged 3ph motor (for almost any application) is the TENV (totally enclosed non ventilated). There is no external cooling fan, so the motor is dead quiet even if run at 150% of nameplate rpm - which is the max speed setting for all my drives. All the heat built up inside the motor is transferred through a heavy motor shell, sometimes with fins, which allow radiation & convection to cool the motor. TENV motors have either Class F or Class H insulation, which are the two highest temp NEMA insulation classes. If you look at Baldor.com, their "general purpose" TENV motors go up to only 1.5 hp, but their "vector drive" motors are available to 20 hp. The vector motors are a little pricey ... the 3 hp ZDNM3661T retails for $2984.
> 
> Much more common (and less costly) is the TEFC (totally enclosed fan cooled). The external cooling fan is pretty noisy at full motor rpm, & really loud at 150% of full rpm. Since this style motor is dependent on fan cooling, it can overheat if run below full rpm, and quite a few users install a muffin fan or other type of auxiliary cooling fan that runs at full speed at all times (not VFD driven).
> 
> The least expensive motor is the ODP (open drip proof). Available with high temp Class F insulation, this style has an internal fan which draws air through the motor housing. It has the same low speed issues at the TEFC. Because air (and dirt, dust, lint, etc.) are drawn through the motor, it less desirable than the TEFC for machine tool use. If this is the motor on your machine, motor life can be extended by blowing compressed air through the windings on a regular basis.
> 
> Some manufacturers would like to have customers believe that every VFD requires a vector drive motor. Problem is, NEMA has yet to define vector drive motor which means that the manufacturer can designate any motor as a vector drive or inverter drive motor. Baldor makes a big deal about their ISR insulation, which is rated for 200°C, but almost every big name motor company uses similar or identical magnet wire. Their vector drive booklet is a good read, as long as you remember that it is a paid political advertisement
> 
> http://www.baldor.com/pdf/literature/BR400_1106.pdf



Good - I selected max. of 150% max. speed (90 hz) based on your suggestions. It briefly tried running it faster while I was getting familiar with the various settings, but it did not "feel" right running faster than 90Hz.

Question: When you said using a muffin fan to cool the motor instead of the built-in TEFC noisy fan/blade, do you have some examples/pictures/links to have an idea of what you are talking about?


----------



## precisionworks

> tried running it faster while I was getting familiar with the various settings, but it did not "feel" right running faster than 90Hz.


At 60 Hz (or 50 Hz in all the rest of the world) a motor produces full hp & full torque. Above that freq, the hp stays the same but the torque starts to decline. At 90 Hz the reduced torque usually isn't a problem. At 120 Hz (double the nameplate rpm) the torque is cut in half.



> do you have some examples/pictures/links to have an idea of what you are talking about?



Electric Trading Co. lists quite a few at decent prices: http://www.blowerwheel.com/fans-cooling-electronics-framed-square.htm

Also check Radio Shack, Surplus Sales, eBay, etc. Some run on 110-120vac, others need 12vdc. Sizing these is an inexact science, but try to find one that's about as large as the existing shaft fan on the motor. Most are pretty quiet, some more so than others.


----------



## wquiles

precisionworks said:


> At 60 Hz (or 50 Hz in all the rest of the world) a motor produces full hp & full torque. Above that freq, the hp stays the same but the torque starts to decline. At 90 Hz the reduced torque usually isn't a problem. At 120 Hz (double the nameplate rpm) the torque is cut in half.
> 
> 
> 
> Electric Trading Co. lists quite a few at decent prices: http://www.blowerwheel.com/fans-cooling-electronics-framed-square.htm
> 
> Also check Radio Shack, Surplus Sales, eBay, etc. Some run on 110-120vac, others need 12vdc. Sizing these is an inexact science, but try to find one that's about as large as the existing shaft fan on the motor. Most are pretty quiet, some more so than others.



Thanks much Barry - I will look into those. There are even a few of the larger ones that even run directly of 220V 

Will


----------



## niner

Find a nice motor for VFD conversion.

http://cgi.ebay.com/Baldor-ZDNM3661...emQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item29f98ee902

Too bad it is for local pick up only:shakehead


----------



## precisionworks

That is probably the most perfect motor made for freq drive applications ... but for $2984 (retail) it should be. I'll be in St Louis this weekend & will pick it up if you want, but it would then need crating for UPS shipment.


----------



## Atlascycle

if you cut a piece of plywood the size of the bottom of the box and bolt the motor to it they will ship that way. That is how Baldor ships them from the factory.

Jason


----------



## 65535

Hell Barry, buy em for yourself. I'm sure you could get far more than $200 a piece even after shipping. Not to mention if you wanted to use them for your own machinery.


----------



## niner

precisionworks said:


> That is probably the most perfect motor made for freq drive applications ... but for $2984 (retail) it should be. I'll be in St Louis this weekend & will pick it up if you want, but it would then need crating for UPS shipment.


 
Thanks Barry for the offer. At 108lb, it is too heavy for my mill. As the other guy said, you should get them. They are a great buy at less than $200 each.


----------



## wquiles

precisionworks said:


> That is probably the most perfect motor made for freq drive applications ... but for $2984 (retail) it should be. I'll be in St Louis this weekend & will pick it up if you want, but it would then need crating for UPS shipment.



Isn't it a face mount, therefore a "little" difficult to install in our machines?


----------



## precisionworks

Face mount OR foot mount, your call


----------



## alexmin

Barry,

do you know if I can use my VFD rated for 2 HP with 3HP motor?


Thanks,
Alex


----------



## wquiles

precisionworks said:


> Face mount OR foot mount, your call



Ahh - I missed that. What is the stuff on the back end, opposite to the main shaft?


----------



## alexmin

wquiles said:


> Ahh - I missed that. What is the stuff on the back end, opposite to the main shaft?



Optical encoder?


----------



## 65535

Yep, it's a hollow shaft encoder. I imagine the List Price would be far lower if it didn't have one.


----------



## precisionworks

> do you know if I can use my VFD rated for 2 HP with 3HP motor?


You can, and it is sometimes done, but the _max motor hp and torque will be that produced by a 2 hp motor. _

A 2 hp drive will only flow x-many amps, because the rectifier diodes, IGBT's, and all other components are sized for that amp load - a 3 hp drive has components designed to carry 50% more current. Your drive already has factory default parameters set for running a 2 hp motor - look at the parameter for motor amps just to be sure. Normally, when commissioning a new drive, the installer reads the nameplate FLA (full load amps) from the motor & enters that number into the motor amp parameter so the drive will fault out above that amp draw. In your case, the motor amp parameter stays at the setting for 2 hp. If you heavily load the spindle & the motor draws more than FLA needed to produce 2 hp, the drive faults - which is needed to protect the drive.



> Yep, it's a hollow shaft encoder.... Optical encoder?


+1

Baldor calls that a thru-shaft encoder, which is a hollow shaft optical encoder - one type shown here: http://beiied.com/PDFs2/HS35_Absolute_Encoder.pdf

Open loop vector drives (sensorless vector) use a microprocessor in the drive, combined with a control algorithm program, to determine shaft position. The drive sends voltage/current pulses to the motor & receives information back from the motor that tells the drive if the motor is performing as it should - if not, the drive makes adjustments to the voltage/current output so motor performance is correct.

Closed loop vector drives use a sensor, which is some form of shaft encoder. Solid shaft encoders are sometimes used but they add quite a bit of length to the motor as the encoder shaft is coupled to motor shaft. Hollow shaft encoders slip right over the motor shaft & reduce overall length. The biggest advantage to a shaft encoder is that one full shaft revolution is broken down into 4096 (or 8192) counts per shaft turn - on the encoder linked above. The drive is reading more information from an encoder than it could read using the sensorless vector algorithm, which makes it suitable if there is a need for absolute positional accuracy.

In practice, with today's advanced microprocessors in a sensorless vector drive, closed loop drives are being used less. For probably 80% of industrial applications, the sensorless vector drive does the job at low cost.

Worth noting is that quite a few really cheap eBay drives require a motor with shaft encoder - here's a killer deal on a 20 hp drive that requires an encoder (and there are lots more):

http://cgi.ebay.com/20-HP-230V-VECT...emQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item53d9474389


----------



## precisionworks

FWIW, sensorless vector drives actually do have a sensor - which is the feedback read by the microprocessor. Without any type of feedback from the motor, the drive would be a simple V/Hz drive which is a low performance unit made to run a decreasing load application like a fan or pump.

Manufacturers really should call them non shaft encoder internal algorithm sensor vector drives, but that sounds awful and sales would drop


----------



## alexmin

Guys,

Before my PM1236 arrives I am going to take advantage of Enco free shipping offer and stock up on oils and fluids for my new lathe.

Here are my questions:

1. How much of gear oil do I need? (Enco has Mobil DTE Heavy/Med. ISO 68)
2. What way oil should I get? Way Oil #1 or #2 ?
3. Which Coolant fluid?
4. Mason Neoprene Mounts are on sale. Should I get them or get solid metal mounts instead? 

Anything else I should get?

Thanks


----------



## wquiles

alexmin said:


> Guys,
> 
> Before my PM1236 arrives I am going to take advantage of Enco free shipping offer and stock up on oils and fluids for my new lathe.
> 
> Here are my questions:
> 
> 1. How much of gear oil do I need? (Enco has Mobil DTE Heavy/Med. ISO 68)
> 2. What way oil should I get? Way Oil #1 or #2 ?
> 3. Which Coolant fluid?
> 4. Mason Neoprene Mounts are on sale. Should I get them or get solid metal mounts instead?
> 
> Anything else I should get?
> 
> Thanks



1. Buy two gallons. You should run the machine in all speeds for 1/2 hour, then empty the main crankcase and refill with the Mobil DTE stuff. If you look a page or two back in this thread, you will see that I also opened the main case and cleaned up the original debris left and added a strong magnet to pick up junk.

2. #2

3. I use Kool Mist #78 in a Kool Mist brand mister - much nicer and less messy than the flood coolant system. Plus the flood coolant system that comes with the lathe is very cheap - I disconnected mine and never used it.

4. That is what I used as well 


Remember that you want to put some sealer between the machine and the mounts at the mounting holes for the bolts, to prevent grease, oil, coolant from coming down 

Will


----------



## cmacclel

alexmin said:


> Guys,
> 
> Before my PM1236 arrives I am going to take advantage of Enco free shipping offer and stock up on oils and fluids for my new lathe.
> 
> Here are my questions:
> 
> 1. How much of gear oil do I need? (Enco has Mobil DTE Heavy/Med. ISO 68)
> 2. What way oil should I get? Way Oil #1 or #2 ?
> 3. Which Coolant fluid?
> 4. Mason Neoprene Mounts are on sale. Should I get them or get solid metal mounts instead?
> 
> Anything else I should get?
> 
> Thanks



I would not get the Mobile Way oil as it stinks / smells like gear fluid (Sulfur content). I use sae 30 weight in my CNC lathe.

Mac


----------



## alexmin

wquiles said:


> 3. I use Kool Mist #78 in a Kool Mist brand mister - much nicer and less messy than the flood coolant system. Plus the flood coolant system that comes with the lathe is very cheap - I disconnected mine and never used it.
> Will



Will,

I don't have a compressor. What compressor do you use for Kool Mist?


----------



## wquiles

cmacclel said:


> I would not get the Mobile Way oil as it stinks / smells like gear fluid (Sulfur content). I use sae 30 weight in my CNC lathe.


I must be weird (well, we all know by now that "I am weird"), but I don't mind the way the #2 way oil smells - not bad at all. Then again, I would not use it for cologne, unless perhaps if I were dating an attractive female machinist that would appreciate that type of perfume 





alexmin said:


> Will,
> 
> I don't have a compressor. What compressor do you use for Kool Mist?


I have an amazing Eaton compressor - really nice and quiet:
https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/234294


----------



## precisionworks

> I don't have a compressor. What compressor do you use for Kool Mist?


I wouldn't think the Portamist system would use any more than 3 or 4 scfm, so even a small, 1 hp compressor running from a 120v wall outlet should be enough. The only drawback to the small, oil-less compressors is that they sound like the Hammers of Hell, which gets annoying quickly. Will's unit is really nice & super quiet - it probably lulls him to sleep at night 

Air coolant is another option (vortex cooler) but they are major air hogs. Even with the smallest generator, mine needs 15 scfm, meaning a 4 hp compressor. Although some companies advertise 5 to 7 hp compressors really cheaply, they don't state that the "horses" are in fact Shetland Ponies, and small ones at that. My shop has three 60 gallon compressors, each with a real 3 hp motor (advertised as 7). One runs all the time with the air cooler, and one more cycles on & off. The third compressor only kicks on if a large air tool is being tested after rebuild ... some of them need 50 scfm.


----------



## darkzero

alexmin said:


> 4. Mason Neoprene Mounts are on sale. Should I get them or get solid metal mounts instead?


 
I too was going to go with solid mounts as recommended by some others. 

I ended up ording the Mason ones like Will has from Enco on Black Friday. On sale (whichI did not know about until I received the sale flyer with the order), quantity discount, & Black Friday discount, ended up paying $9.34ea for them, pretty good compared to $17ea at MSC, couldn't pass that up. I'll decide wether I'm going to use them or not when the lathe arrives.




wquiles said:


> I must be weird (well, we all know by now that "I am weird"), but I don't mind the way the #2 way oil smells - not bad at all. Then again, I would not use it for cologne, unless perhaps if I were dating an attractive female machinist that would appreciate that type of perfume


 
I agree with Mac that the way oil does smell but like Will I don't think it smells very bad. Smells like typical "machinery" to me. With my previous jobs I'm used to it. Gear oils smell just as bad.


----------



## alexmin

I was just looking at Will's pictures of his drained gear box. It had a lot of metal particles. 

What do you think if I drain my gear box, disassemble/take out all gears 
and remove any burrs, sharp edges etc. before I even run my new lathe?

Most Chinese machining products I had greatly improved after my hand chamfering, de-burring, radiusing, smoothing, polishing edges etc. 

Alleged benefits would be:
1. Less chance of gear failure. Due to removing stress risers.
2. Less noise
3. No metal particles in oil - less wear.
4. Easier/smoother gear changing?
5. Smoother gear operation? (If I slightly polish gear contact surfaces)


What do you think?


----------



## wquiles

My opinion, 2 cents worth: 
- if you truly have the time and knowledge to pull apart the yet-to-be-used machine and clean/debur and re-install everything before you apply power for the first time, and you have 100% confidence that everything will be perfect, then go ahead and have fun.

- however, I recommend that you do what nearly 99.9% of new lathe owners do:
1) run the lathe with the fluid it comes with on all speeds for about 30 min each
2) drain and (optionally) clean the main gearbox (like I did, cleaning the inside as well, adding a strong magnet on the inside)
3) re-fill with the right amount of the Mobil Med-Heavy (68) fluid
4) Enjoy your new machine 

Will


----------



## precisionworks

> What do you think if I drain my gear box, disassemble/take out all gears
> and remove any burrs, sharp edges etc. before I even run my new lathe?


I think you will void the warranty 

By design, gears will acquaint themselves to each other & wear in very nicely - unless they are horribly out of spec. Matt and staff inspect each machine before shipment & I have yet to hear of a bad one getting out to a customer.

I've worked on a few lathes, and while they are not complex, they also aren't the easiest machines in the world to tear down. Try not to be shocked, but I've broken a part or two while carefully taking down a lathe, and the parts I broke were not cheap to replace.

As my friend likes to say, If it ain't broke don't fix it :thinking:


----------



## alexmin

Thanks guys for your input. I'll leave the gear box alone.


----------



## alexmin

Guys,

is there any good deals on 3 HP NEMA 4X VFDs ? 
Preferably with knob to adjust speed instead of keys.
The cheapest VFD I could find is $380


----------



## wquiles

alexmin said:


> Guys,
> 
> is there any good deals on 3 HP NEMA 4X VFDs ?
> Preferably with knob to adjust speed instead of keys.
> The cheapest VFD I could find is $380



The AC Tech Vector Drive that I used in my VFD Knee mill conversion here (and that Barry has also used) is the one we would recommend:
https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/223336&page=5


AC Tech SMVector Drive, NEMA 4X

Once you select options and inputs, it will come to $385, and you will have to add shipping. Adding a pot for speed is very easy, as you can see above in my VFD conversion, but you can also use the buttons on the VFD to do everything as well.

Will


----------



## Clark

precisionworks said:


> FWIW, sensorless vector drives actually do have a sensor - which is the feedback read by the microprocessor. Without any type of feedback from the motor, the drive would be a simple V/Hz drive which is a low performance unit made to run a decreasing load application like a fan or pump.
> 
> Manufacturers really should call them non shaft encoder internal algorithm sensor vector drives, but that sounds awful and sales would drop



~6 years ago a company bid a job with a sensor less 3 phase permanent magnet motor/generator. They were going to look at back EMF when the switches were off to determine speed and phase. The conrtol board had 10,000 components [doomed to failure right there]. But the short circuit proof high inductance windings in the motor had too much noise in the off times to ever get to 15,000 r.p.m.. Those motors do not tolerate slip, and sheer the shaft.
They got sued by the customer. The company was worth $50M, but sold for $14M with all future liability for the motor drive to be on the seller.
~5.5 years ago I was hired to help support the customers development with a kludge motor drive. 
I am not a motor drive engineer, but if I were, I would demand a resolver on the shaft.


----------



## Clark

alexmin said:


> Guys,
> 
> Before my PM1236 arrives I am going to take advantage of Enco free shipping offer and stock up on oils and fluids for my new lathe.
> 
> Here are my questions:
> 
> 1. How much of gear oil do I need? (Enco has Mobil DTE Heavy/Med. ISO 68)
> 2. What way oil should I get? Way Oil #1 or #2 ?
> 3. Which Coolant fluid?
> 4. Mason Neoprene Mounts are on sale. Should I get them or get solid metal mounts instead?
> 
> Anything else I should get?
> 
> Thanks



I got a hold of Matt on the phone yesterday about the PM1236 I bought from him this year.
I called the receptionist at 1:17 p.m Friday my time and he returned my call an hour later.


412 787 2876
[email protected]

I asked two questions:
1) a) What oil, b) how much, c) where to put in?

a) He said DTE Mobil Heavy medium machine oil.
I said that I thought we agreed that my gallon of DTE 24 Light hydraulic oil was good.

He said that was a little light, unless my shop is cold.

I said that it never gets below 40 degrees in the shop, but the machine take 35 seconds to reach top r.p.m. when starting and I can smell the V belts straining with all that torque. It takes 5 seconds immediately there after. The oil must get be getting heated by the motor.

He said that the light machine oil may be better for me then.

I asked if there was something in between.

He said the Mobil DTE medium machine oil is almost impossible to find.

b) He said it goes in two places. There is an observation hole by the chuck for the top and an observation hole for the bottom on the front. He said to fill the bottom, you take out the Allen wrench plug under the cover. Then you put it back in and fill through the other Allenhole until the observation hole looks good.

c) He said it is 2.25 gallons for the top and ~ .5 gallons for the bottom, so 3 gallons will do the machine.

2) I asked about the bottom of my steady rest. He said he would replace it. I need to send him the old base. He offered to give me his UPS account number.


----------



## moptop121

Greebe said:


> I have one of these lathes. Overall I like it but it does have one major problem.
> 
> Since day one it leaks oil like crazy. Every gear box that has oil leaks very bad. The headstock leaks onto the motor, the feedbox leaks onto the chip pan, and the apron leaks onto the chip pan as well.
> 
> The feedbox leaks so stinking bad that I have to top it up regularly. Then I end up with fluid all over the chip pan which then contaminates my coolant.
> 
> It kind of pi$$es me off to pay $3500 for a new machine and have it leaking like an old car with a cracked block.
> 
> I contacted Matt about this several times and all he said was that that was a common problem and that I should tear the whole thing down and replace all the seals. Right....., maybe I should get a discount for having to rebuild a brand new lathe.
> 
> Anyways does yours leak like a sieve?
> 
> Thanks
> Greebe


 
Greebe
Did you get your oil leak resolved? I am considering the same lathe from Matt. I just sent a new Grizzly 12x39 back for leaks at both ends of the spindle after I replaced the felt seals my self at Tech's request. ( still leaked ) Tech told me to send it back for a refund. I don't want to go through this ordeal again.
moptop121:thinking:


----------



## Anglepoise

It was mentioned above that a magnet would help.

I use small rod magnets on all my drain plugs and anywhere else that I can get to easily. Keeps the oil 'clean' and I would highly recommend.


----------



## alexmin

wquiles said:


> Adding a pot for speed is very easy, as you can see above in my VFD conversion
> Will



Will,

I've checked the whole thread and I can't find anything about speed pot.


----------



## wquiles

alexmin said:


> Will,
> 
> I've checked the whole thread and I can't find anything about speed pot.



Post # 138 on the link I posted. Specifically:







That is a simple 5K linear pot. And the switch is an Forward - OFF - Reverse switch. None are carying any significant current - mostly a low level analog signal (for the speed) and logical levels for the OFF and direction.


Then on post #152 you can see the link to the manual and the diagram that Barry posted for the terminal strip. It looks intimidating (due to the many options), but it is very straight forward to wire:
https://www.candlepowerforums.com/posts/3169042&postcount=152


On post #153 you can actually see how I actually wired the little black box with the speed pot and the main switch:
https://www.candlepowerforums.com/posts/3169600&postcount=153


Let me or Barry know if you have specific questions - we will help you as much as possible 

Will


----------



## alexmin

Thank you Will.

You had your 1236 now for a while. When using it do you ever wish you bought a bigger 1340 or 1440 lathe?


----------



## wquiles

alexmin said:


> Thank you Will.
> 
> You had your 1236 now for a while. When using it do you ever wish you bought a bigger 1340 or 1440 lathe?



Good question. This is what I really wanted, and still want: the PM-1340T, which is the machine that Brian (Mirage_Man) got:
PM-1340T Industrial Toolroom Lathe

But it was twice my budget, so it was not possible. When I called Matt I talked to him for a little while, and we talked about the 1236 and the 1340, and he said that based on all of the stuff I told him about my projects, and how I wanted to use the larger lathe, that he would himself get the 1236 lathe - even though the he could have sold me the larger/more expensive 1340 model. 

At the time I was not sure about the space, and since Matt spoke so highly about the 1236, I ordered and I got the 1236. Yes, I have been really happy with its performance and work envelope, and I like the fact that the 1236 lathe was already "setup" and adjusted (and DRO installed) by Matt's folks before I got it - it was truly plug and play for me when I got it. 

I think that I have previously mentioned earlier that the built-in halogen lamp is over-driven and bulbs go out often, and that the cheap 220V cooland pump/system is not worth the metal it was made from, but the lathe has been good so far in other regards and I feel it can cut metal as good as the idiot using it (that would be me!). I personally think that the 1236 needs to have a wider base (for even better stability), but that will be accomplished at some point in the future by having custom wider "feet" like Barry and others have recommended. The 1236 has been a great lathe for my usage - the lathe will actually turn a year old in about 2 weeks!. 

Even though that I have now re-organized (optimized?) the space in my "shop", and even though I can easily fit the larger 1340 or 1440 where I today have the 1236, I still don't see any need to upgrade, unless I could find a way to get the 1340T that is!

Once the 1236 gets the 5HP VFD conversion, it will be an even nicer machine to use - with some much torque and HP, I will pretty much will be able to leave it on the high speed and pretty much forget to even change the mechanical gears again (unless a special project needs it). Of course, my neighbor keeps saying that I need to convert it to a CNC setup, but I keep telling him "not yet" 

Will


----------



## precisionworks

> any good deals on 3 HP NEMA 4X VFDs ?



Most of the readers on this forum know that:

I'm really cheap &

I like high quality stuff lovecpf

Which is why my shop is mostly full of eBay items ... except for VFD's. I've looked high & low, and the best price on a NEMA 4X drive (sensorless vector) is the ACTech SMVector from Wolf Automation. Two so far, maybe another one or two after that. Small, quiet, easy to configure, great tech support, etc.



> it will come to $385, and you will have to add shipping.


Wolf Automation now offers free shipping if the order is $300 or more, but you may find a better price from another distributor & they will match that ... which is often better than saving $8.95 on the shipping.

There certainly are lots of drives on eBay, and I've looked at hundreds of them but have yet to purchase one. The really cheap ones tend to be older, or have no online documentation, or need a keypad that may no longer be made, or run on 480 volts, or ... or ... or ... 

ACTech isn't the only brand in the marketplace, and Wolf Automation is not the only distributor, but both represent solid value for the money.


----------



## alexmin

Barry, Will

thank you guys.
You have been very helpful.


----------



## KowShak

precisionworks said:


> Most of the readers on this forum know that:
> 
> I'm really cheap &
> 
> I like high quality stuff lovecpf


 
I wouldn't have said you're cheap, I'd have said that you're running a business, have been for some time and understand that everything you buy has to pay for itself. You spend the money where it matters and try not to get lured into waste, is that being cheap or being sensible?


----------



## cmacclel

I have no idea why you guys (Will )love to change motors and add VFD's when you already have something that *works* and is variable by moving a lever. My Grizzly 12x36 lathe was pretty much the same as all the import 12x36 lathes out there and the motor never bogged down in normal use.

I'd love to add a motor and VFD to my RF-31 mill as step pulley's are a pain in the rear especially for me as I'm either machining aluminum or drilling titanium which makes me swap belt positions.

Mac


----------



## wquiles

For me there are lots of reasons: 
- Smoothness: the 3phase motor will vibrate less and be significantly smoother than the single phase 220V motor - better finishes possible.
- Convenience and speed of operation: No need to stop lathe to change gears to start again, over and over again to find the sweet cutting spot/s - find the sweet spot "while" the lathe is still running.
- Flexibility with the higher Torque and HP motor: I can leave it on ONE high gear and do everything from threading to a mirror finish, all by adjusting the potentiometer.
- Safety: I will be adding an extra E-Switch to the carriage. Trivial to do with the way VFD's work.
- Faster stops: With the aid of an eternal braking resistor: near instant stops possible - lots of possibilities for faster operations. Even without an external resistor it will still stop sooner than now with no back-EMF.
- Longer life for the motor/gearbox/moving parts and much lower currents on all 220V wiring, due to the slow start possible with the VFD. 

and I am sure I am forgetting some other reasons. Perhaps Barry can add some of his reasons :naughty:


----------



## cmacclel

wquiles said:


> For me there are lots of reasons:
> - Smoothness: the 3phase motor will vibrate less and be significantly smoother than the single phase 220V motor - better finishes possible.


 
I would need to see this to believe it  Don't get me wrong if I *HAD* to replace a motor in my lathe I would definetly look into getting a VFD and new motor but if I had something that works I would'nt touch it. Within a week of running your new lathe you should know what speeds and feeds work and what doesn't 

Mac


----------



## darkzero

wquiles said:


> - Flexibility with the higher Torque and HP motor: I can leave it on ONE high gear and do everything from threading to a mirror finish, all by adjusting the potentiometer.


 
I have no plans on doing a VFD conversion any time close in the near future but just curious, what range of speeds can you get from just that one pot? Can it really cover speeds from slow threading like close to a shoulder or turning large diameter steel or Ti to faster speeds for stuff like small diameter aluminum?




wquiles said:


> - Longer life for the motor/gearbox/moving parts and much lower currents on all 220V wiring, due to the slow start possible with the VFD.


 
Again, just curious, how will a VFD give longer life to the gearbox & other moving parts? I understand there will be less wear on the gears that will no longer "need" to be used but what about the gears that will be used "all the time"?


----------



## Clark

I thought I was going to put a DC motor, variac, rectifier, and resistive brake on the PM1236.
But then when the PM1236 arrived, and the motor worked so well, I gave up on that.


----------



## wquiles

cmacclel said:


> I would need to see this to believe it  Don't get me wrong if I *HAD* to replace a motor in my lathe I would definetly look into getting a VFD and new motor but if I had something that works I would'nt touch it. Within a week of running your new lathe you should know what speeds and feeds work and what doesn't


Barry posted this some time ago (hopefully he will find it quicker than I could), but 3 phase motors are intrinsically smoother due to the 3 pulses than the single phase motors. Through the web, time and time again, I see folks quoting that 3 phase motors "do" give a better finish. I have too little time with the 3ph motor on my knee mill to notice a difference on the finish, but I can already tell that it is smoother/quieter than the single phase motor it replaced.

Regarding your last point: I had a variable speed 7x lathe, and then the 8x lathe - once you experience first hand infinitely variable speeds, you want nothing less. This one you have to experience to appreciate, and I have been missing it on the 12x since day one 




darkzero said:


> I have no plans on doing a VFD conversion any time close in the near future but just curious, what range of speeds can you get from just that one pot? Can it really cover speeds from slow threading like close to a shoulder or turning large diameter steel or Ti to faster speeds for stuff like small diameter aluminum?



Basically, when the VFD is at 60Hz, then the spindle speed will be exactly what the levers say it should be - this is the nominal speed.

But the VFD can vary the motor speed from about 5 hz to about 90 hz (nominal of 1740 RPMs at 60Hz). So if I leave my speed selector on my lathe at 1200 spindle RPM (which is achieved with the motor running at a constant 1740 RPMs at 60Hz), I would have:
- high speed: 90/60*(1740) = about 2600 RPM at the motor, which would be about 1740RPM at the spindle
- low speed: 5/60*(1740) = about 145 RPM at the motor, which would be about 100 RPM at the spindle

If I leave the selector on a lower speed (say around 900 RPM spindle speed), then I would had:
- high speed: 90/60*(1740) = about 2600 RPM at the motor, which would be about 1300 RPM at the spindle
- low speed: 5/60*(1740) = about 145 RPM at the motor, which would be about 75 RPM at the spindle

Now, "that" is what I call flexible :devil:

Of course, at 5Hz you have much lower torque, which is the reason you need a higher HP/torque motor when doing a VFD conversion so that even when you go low speed, you would still have plenty of torque available.

I am sure Barry will chime in shortly and correct any mistake(s) I have here 




darkzero said:


> Again, just curious, how will a VFD give longer life to the gearbox & other moving parts? I understand there will be less wear on the gears that will no longer "need" to be used but what about the gears that will be used "all the time"?


This one is easy. Once you get your 12x lathe, start it, stop it, and before you get the spindle to fully stop, start it again - you will "hear" clearly my point about applying full torque to the gearing mechanism. WIth the soft start on a VFD, this hard meshing of the gears is gone


----------



## unterhausen

wquiles said:


> WIth the soft start on a VFD, this hard meshing of the gears is gone


I never really thought about this aspect of a VFD, but it is a good point. I need to wire up a pot, I just have my VFD set at 60Hz.


----------



## darkzero

Thanks for the explanations Will.


----------



## wquiles

darkzero said:


> Thanks for the explanations Will.



You are welcome, but Barry is the expert here - I am still very much in learning mode. I am waiting for him to come by and clarify/expand on what I posted above


----------



## wquiles

unterhausen said:


> I never really thought about this aspect of a VFD, but it is a good point. I need to wire up a pot, I just have my VFD set at 60Hz.



With the VFD controller that I got, those are two separate functions. You can still have the motor run at a constant 60Hz, but have separate acceleration and deceleration rates. 

Back on the 8x lathe, the KB controller for the 90V DC motor also had separate pots for acceleration and deceleration, independent of the variable speed pot. It is worth checking in the manual of your VFD to see how they implemented this.

In my knee mill (where I "do" have the variable speed pot), the motor will accelerate slowly up to whatever speed the pot is set to - very cool to see/hear :thumbsup:


----------



## precisionworks

If the machine does what you want as it comes from the factory, no need to modify. "If it ain't broke, why fix it?"

Three of the VFD machines in my shop were less than powerful - 1.5 hp on the belt/disc sander, 1.0 hp on the Burr King, .5 hp on the drill press. Swapping in a 3 hp motor made a huge difference on all three. 

The fourth, a shop built wire brush machine, ran a bit too fast - 3450 rpm with a wheel rated 3000 rpm - and the 1ph 3 hp motor was plenty of power, with almost zero control. It was an accident waiting to happen. The freq drive allows the wire brush to run from 275 rpm to 2750 rpm, making it both safer & easier to use.

The drill had a multi step pulley transferring not much power through a belt the size of a boot lace. That belt got shifted a dozen times per job, which was annoying. Now the regular size belt runs at the bottom position (slowest) or one position up. It will easily push a 1" twist drill through as much mild steel plate as the vise will hold, while turning a blazing 70 rpm.

On a mill or lathe, most of the gears or pulley steps will still be used unless you upsize the motor quite a lot - like the 5 hp that will plans. The biggest advantage of adjustable speed control on a gear drive or pulley drive machine is the ability to fine tune the speed within each gear or pulley range. Another plus is the ability to go much slower, as well as much faster. It is easy to run a motor at 10% of normal speed, and just as easy to run that motor at 150% of normal speed - plus all the speeds in between.

If you've ever done a milling job and needed just a little more (or a bit less) speed, one step up or down is often too much. Same with the lathe. The freq drive eliminates those issues.



> 3 phase motors are intrinsically smoother due to the 3 pulses than the single phase motors.


+1

Hard to deny the physics involved. A 1ph motor uses power that goes from positive peak, through zero voltage, to negative peak at the rate of 120X per second (100X in most other parts of the globe). 3ph power gets rid of that.






The graph shows all three phases, and single phase would be represented by any one of those colors. 

Machinists have gotten by for 100 years with a few gear ranges, or a handful of pulley steps. No reason that anyone still has to do this today, unless they're satisfied with what they have.



> correct any mistake(s) I have here


I wouldn't have said that any differently.


----------



## unterhausen

wquiles said:


> With the VFD controller that I got, those are two separate functions. You can still have the motor run at a constant 60Hz, but have separate acceleration and deceleration rates.


I didn't mean to confuse the two issues. The accel/decel is definitely totally divorced from the pot. I actually have my VFD wired up in a configuration that will use a pot, but I didn't wire it in yet; no place to put it in the panel as of now. It's nice that it works without it.


----------



## alexmin

wquiles said:


> Once the 1236 gets the 5HP VFD conversion...
> Will



Will,

what VFD and motor are you going to use?


----------



## wquiles

alexmin said:


> Will,
> 
> what VFD and motor are you going to use?



I already have a new TEFC Baldor 5HP motor, model M3615T.

For the VFD controller, I will use the same NEMA4 AC Tech Vector Drive that I used in the knee mill VFD conversion, but the 10HP version, which when de-rated will work perfectly for my application. In addition, I will have an external 5HP or 10HP breaking resistor - I have to double check with Barry to make sure I get the correct one.


----------



## alexmin

wquiles said:


> I already have a new TEFC Baldor 5HP motor, model M3615T.
> 
> For the VFD controller, I will use the same NEMA4 AC Tech Vector Drive that I used in the knee mill VFD conversion, but the 10HP version, which when de-rated will work perfectly for my application. In addition, I will have an external 5HP or 10HP breaking resistor - I have to double check with Barry to make sure I get the correct one.



Will,

I am confused.
AC Tech brochure http://www.actech.com/documents/saleslit/FLSV01C-e1.pdf does not have any 10 HP drives that take 200v single phase input.
With 220v 1 phase input their drives go up to 3 HP only.


----------



## precisionworks

> With 220v 1 phase input their drives go up to 3 HP only.


Exactly 

With 240v 1ph input, most manufacturers go to a maximum of 3 hp. You can use a *3ph input drive with 1ph input* by derating the drive ... doubling the drive size is the usual choice. Here's why ...

Say that you have a 10 hp 3ph motor. To run that motor on 1ph supply, take the square root of 3, which is 1.73, meaning that the drive (or the rotary converter) has to be able to flow 1.73X the current that would be needed if 3ph supply were available.

10 X 1.73 = 17.3, meaning a drive rated for 17.3 hp (or larger) will work. Most users use a factor of 2.00 instead of 1.73, as that allows some cushion for drive component sizing, and it is much easier to remember.

Same would apply to running a 100hp motor ... just use a 200hp 3ph drive and it works like a charm. For 5hp, a 10hp drive is the usual choice.


----------



## alexmin

10 HP AC Drive is $800. Ouch!!!


----------



## wquiles

alexmin said:


> 10 HP AC Drive is $800. Ouch!!!



I never said it was cheap ...


----------



## precisionworks

> I never said it was cheap ...


+1

One of my friends runs a Lucas Precision HBM, 6" spindle, 50 hp drive motor, roughly 10' in X, 8' in Y, 4' in Z, and another 12' in W. He refers to my machine tools as Tinker Toys 

Spindle drives start to get pricey at 5 hp and above, and a lot of CNC lathes & mills run those size drives - which is a part of their cost. What one might call Big Boys Toys :twothumbs


----------



## alexmin

Guys,

Matt included free wedge type QCTP like this one with my lathe:
http://www.machinetoolonline.com/qctp.html

and a set of cheap insert holders.
http://picasaweb.google.com/alexkuzn/Lathe02?feat=directlink


do you have any recommendations for any specific insert holders that will work with this QCTP? 

BTW I have a surface grinder but no milling machine yet so I am limited on any tool modifications.


----------



## precisionworks

> I have a surface grinder but no milling machine



Nothing wrong with that. You can modify the hardest of holders without fear of ruining an expensive end mill :thumbsup:


----------



## alexmin

precisionworks said:


> Nothing wrong with that. You can modify the hardest of holders without fear of ruining an expensive end mill :thumbsup:



Sure. It also will take only  ten hours to grind off 1/2" of steel on my manual surface grinder. I use it mostly on folding knife blades after heat treating to take off very little metal to make perfect parallel sides.

I had a Millrite vertical mill that is about 3/4 of BridgePort size. I need more mass and rigidity for milling integral knives so I sold it but have not got any replacement for it yet. 
It sucks been millless


----------



## wquiles

alexmin said:


> I had a Millrite vertical mill that is about 3/4 of BridgePort size. I need more mass and rigidity ...


You had something like this?
http://www.lathes.co.uk/millrite/

or this one:
http://phoenix.craigslist.org/wvl/tls/1493864826.html

But being that the knives are "relatively small", why is it that you say that you need more mass/rigidity? What was the old mill not doing properly? Just curious since I am still a beginner with all of this.


----------



## alexmin

Mine was just like on craigslist link.

Imagine that you have a stainless steel bar and you need to mill a long pocket 1.5"x10" and 0.5" deep.
That is many hours of milling if you can take only light cuts. 
Try to take a heavier cut and the motor (1 HP) starts bogging down,
milling table begin to jerk even with all the gibs very tight.

If you try to do the same on this machine 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qbo5D17e62A
it'll be totally different experience.


----------



## alexmin

I don't have a compressor to use with a mist coolant system like Will so for now I have to use coolant system that comes with PM1236. 

What kind of coolant should I use with it? 
I'll be cutting mostly stainless.


----------



## wquiles

alexmin said:


> Mine was just like on craigslist link.
> 
> Imagine that you have a stainless steel bar and you need to mill a long pocket 1.5"x10" and 0.5" deep.
> That is many hours of milling if you can take only light cuts.
> Try to take a heavier cut and the motor (1 HP) starts bogging down,
> milling table begin to jerk even with all the gibs very tight.
> 
> If you try to do the same on this machine
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qbo5D17e62A
> it'll be totally different experience.



Gotcha - that is one SERIOUSLY nice machine :devil:


----------



## wquiles

alexmin said:


> I don't have a compressor to use with a mist coolant system like Will so for now I have to use coolant system that comes with PM1236.
> 
> What kind of coolant should I use with it?
> I'll be cutting mostly stainless.



I use Kool Mist light formula (#78), but it is important that you use distiled water to prevent rusting. For stainless I would use their heavier duty formula (#77).


----------



## precisionworks

> specific insert holders that will work with this QCTP


Some people like positive rake, others run negative, some (self included) use both.

Negatives are stronger but require more spindle power, which shouldn't be a problem on this machine. CNMG-4xx is pretty common on eBay, meaning cheap. Other negatives are also available at decent prices.

Positives are really nice for small parts & fine work, as they apply less pushing pressure to the work. TCMT-3xxx is run by lot of people & also common on eBay. Lots of other positive shapes as well.


----------



## gadget_lover

alexmin said:


> Sure. It also will take only  ten hours to grind off 1/2" of steel on my manual surface grinder. I use it mostly on folding knife blades after heat treating to take off very little metal to make perfect parallel sides.
> 
> I had a Millrite vertical mill that is about 3/4 of BridgePort size. I need more mass and rigidity for milling integral knives so I sold it but have not got any replacement for it yet.
> It sucks been millless



Since you are in the bay area, you might want to look into the Techshop in San Mateo (right off 101) for occasional use of a large mill. They have monthly and daily memberships, and require that you take a basic safety and use course for each piece of equipment that you might use. 

Last time I was there they had 3 full size mills and two CNC mills.

There are also many CPFers in the bay area that do machining, and they are all friendly kinds of guys. Equipment ranges from micro mills to bridgeports.

Daniel


----------



## alexmin

Will,

what exactly is wrong with coolant system that comes with PM1236?

What do you think about replacing its standard hose with this "Coolant Hose on Magnetic Base" from www.littlemachineshop.com? 
Is it going to make existing system more usable?


----------



## Greebe

Just wanted to follow up on My PM1236 problems. I have got the leaking under control with some help from Matt.

I wanted to say that he has been very good to deal with and that my original comment about my dissatisfaction was premature. The machine is a very nice piece of equipment and Matt has gone out of his way to help get me squared away. 

In fact I just bought another machine from him this afternoon as I have been quite impressed with how he handled all of this.

Thanks Matt 
Greebe


----------



## wquiles

alexmin said:


> Will,
> 
> what exactly is wrong with coolant system that comes with PM1236?
> 
> What do you think about replacing its standard hose with this "Coolant Hose on Magnetic Base" from www.littlemachineshop.com?
> Is it going to make existing system more usable?


Don't get me wrong, the PM1236 is very nice for the money, but the coolant system, pump, etc., is absolutely the cheapest. I did not even wired mine up - it is on a box somewhere in the attic now.

The coolant hose with mag base could work OK, but remember the whole thing is already pre-plumbed to the carriage - you would have to disconnect stuff to then be able to connect the product you linked in the pics. In my humble opinion, it is not even worth it. You can get a new/almost new genuine Kool Mist kit on Ebay for $40-80.




Greebe said:


> Just wanted to follow up on My PM1236 problems. I have got the leaking under control with some help from Matt.
> 
> I wanted to say that he has been very good to deal with and that my original comment about my dissatisfaction was premature. The machine is a very nice piece of equipment and Matt has gone out of his way to help get me squared away.
> 
> In fact I just bought another machine from him this afternoon as I have been quite impressed with how he handled all of this.
> 
> Thanks Matt
> Greebe


Awesome - glad to hear that things are better now


----------



## Greebe

Yeah Matt is a good guy. I am sorry for my original comments about my dissatisfaction. 

I am so used to getting screwed that I sometimes don't give people enough time to make things right. It is hard when you finally get around to buying something that you have wanted for ever and then have problems.

It says a lot about him, for me to be so satisfied with the way he has dealt with these issues. I will admit it, I am hard to please about product quality and customer service. I always have a very high bar that I expect to be met. This is what makes me a good machinist I guess though.

Greebe


----------



## alexmin

wquiles said:


> You can get a new/almost new genuine Kool Mist kit on Ebay for $40-80.



If I only had a compressor 
I've been doing research and it looks that all(?) smaller and cheaper($150-$200) compressors are very loud and have low CFM.


----------



## Clark

Harbor freight has cheap compressors.


----------



## niner

If you are going for a small and quiet compressor, try this: http://www.sears.com/shc/s/p_10153_...Compressors+&+Air+Tools&sName=Air+Compressors

I got it a couple months ago, and I'm very happy with it. It doesn't have the size to handle sandblast or other heavy duty job. But it is more than enough for coolmist, clean up... in a machine room.


----------



## wquiles

alexmin said:


> If I only had a compressor
> I've been doing research and it looks that all(?) smaller and cheaper($150-$200) compressors are very loud and have low CFM.



Yes, I found that out when I was looking for one as well. The 2HP Eaton that I got is extremely quiet, but it was not cheap:
Eaton Compressor ...

The other place that I regularly see high quality used compressors at great prices is my local Craig's list - probably worth looking at if available where you live.


----------



## Clark

I would like to caution those with compressed air around a lathe: don't clean by blowing with compressed air, when it can be avoided.

I bought a used 12x36 lathe, a Clausing 5814, that had been cleaned with compressed air, and it had chips and metal dust up inside every part.

It is better to clean with a shop vac. 
When reaming a chamber of a rifle barrel on a lathe, some seem determined to clean chips with compressed air. If a bucket is held at the left side of the headstock, most of the chips can be caught when they come out.

Same thing with grinders. Get them away from the lathe and mill. 

Cast iron filings are especially abrasive.

And compressed air cleaning outside the shop can still irritate the sinuses if there is oil on the part. You don't want atomized oil in your sinuses.


----------



## wquiles

Very good advice Clark - thanks


----------



## precisionworks

> caution those with compressed air around a lathe


I see that information quite often, and there are times when high pressure air is not the best tool, but more often it is the tool of choice. A friend runs a small CNC shop, half a dozen Mazak horizontal & vertical machining centers, and guess what he & the machine operators use to blow off the vises between parts?

Same thing if a number of holes need to be tapped - either stop the spindle after every hole & brush off the tap, or keep the spindle turning & hit the tap with a short blast of air. This causes TapMagic to aerosolize, which might cause nasal irritation for some people, but gives my shop a really nice smell :nana:

When my 3-jaw or 4-jaw starts to become harder to tighten, the jaws are removed, air is directed at the scroll (or the individual screws) and the parts are quickly cleaned. Same for the threads on the backs of the jaws. Trying to brush clean a chuck will probably force as much gunk into the chuck as will air, and it takes a lot longer.

If using air to clean a lathe or mill is a really unpleasant thought, don't ever go to work in a production shop 



> high quality used compressors at great prices is my local Craig's list


+1

How about a Quincy, older than dirt (1930's according to customer service, based on the serial number) with the original 3/4 hp motor & two stage pump with intercooler? The pump turns at a blistering 462 rpm, but makes more than enough air for most purposes.












The motor + pump + tank probably weigh around 500# ... just a guess, but it takes a couple of big guys to lift the heavy end. So quiet you can stand by it & talk on the cell phone with interruption. $175 was probably too much to pay.


----------



## KowShak

precisionworks said:


> How about a Quincy, older than dirt (1930's according to customer service, based on the serial number) with the original 3/4 hp motor & two stage pump with intercooler? The pump turns at a blistering 462 rpm, but makes more than enough air for most purposes.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The motor + pump + tank probably weigh around 500# ... just a guess, but it takes a couple of big guys to lift the heavy end. So quiet you can stand by it & talk on the cell phone with interruption. $175 was probably too much to pay.


 
That compressor makes the spade leaning against the wall look like a toy, is the spade a full sized one?


----------



## alexmin

Will,

does your Eaton have enough juice(scientific term for PSI/CFM) for continuous sand blasting?


----------



## wquiles

alexmin said:


> Will,
> 
> does your Eaton have enough juice(scientific term for CFM) for continuous sand blasting?



It depends if you need more than 6.8 CFM at 100 PSI, which is the rating on my compressor:
 Medical - Dental Oiless Compressor ...

In my case, since I don't (yet) need sand-blasting equipment I made the compromise of giving up on the ability to do 7-10 CFM in lieu of a "very" quiet compressor. My only limitation right now is that I have a very small 20 Gal tank, and I really need a larger tank.

Since my compressor and tank are separate, it is very easy to add more tank space, and since the space above my garage is available for storage, I am planning on plumbing the 60/80 gallon tank in there, completely freeing more space in my small "shop" - who knows, maybe I will be able to free enough space to even consider getting a small surface grinder 

I am looking in Craig's list since the cheapest new 60gal air tank/received I have found is about $450-500 delivered here in TX - I would like to pay no more than $200 for the tank alone 

Will


----------



## alexmin

Will,

what QCTP comes with PM1236? Matt told me that it is a Wedge type. But he never mentioned if it is AXA or BXA.
I want to buy a 5C collet holder and need to know if it is AXA or BXA.


----------



## cmacclel

alexmin said:


> Will,
> 
> what QCTP comes with PM1236? Matt told me that it is a Wedge type. But he never mentioned if it is AXA or BXA.
> I want to buy a 5C collet holder and need to know if it is AXA or BXA.


 

BXA

Mac


----------



## precisionworks

> is the spade a full sized one?


:laughing:

No, it's a small trenching shovel, left over from a water line installation. The Ditch Witch couldn't get through all the tree roots & old foundations, so the trench was hand dug for 150' ... on the hottest day of the summer:naughty:

I believe the tank is 60 gallons. The customer service rep at Quincy was fascinated that one this old was still in service.

In the USA, there are lots of high quality compressors that sometimes show up on Craigslist or eBay ... most have two names:

Ingersoll-Rand, Saylor Beall, Quincy Compressor, Bel Aire, Atlas Copco, Gardner Denver, etc. Most of these companies still have parts for pumps made 50 years ago, and good tech support.


----------



## wquiles

alexmin said:


> Will,
> 
> what QCTP comes with PM1236? Matt told me that it is a Wedge type. But he never mentioned if it is AXA or BXA.
> I want to buy a 5C collet holder and need to know if it is AXA or BXA.



My PM12x36 came up with a BXA size tool post. Mind you the tool post is just a plain vanilla Asian wedge tool post. It will do the job for sure, but if/when you want something more solid, the Phase II wedge is a great buy for the money. I currently have one my lathe, and Mac has one on his CNC machine. The next level up are the DTM/Aloris wedge tool posts, and arguably the very best is the new triple wedge Dorian:
https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/248487


Once I get my "just restored" DTM fitted to my PM1236, I am selling my Phase II tool post pretty cheap, and it will come with the already fitted "T" for the PM1236 - a true drop-in.

Will


----------



## alexmin

Will,
I would be interested in your Phase II tool post if your definition of "cheap" is matching mine 

BTW Where did you get your flex belts from? What about length and size? 

Thanks,
Alex


----------



## wquiles

The cheapest I can find a new Phase II tool post (wedge) is about $90-95 plus shipping and you have to fit the "T" piece, so I was thinking $40 shipped with the fitted "T" was a cheap. Let me know by email if interested to work out the details.


----------



## bluwolf

Take him up on it Alex. The buyer always gets the better end of the deal when dealing with Will.

Mike


----------



## Clark

Clark said:


> ...I said that it never gets below 40 degrees in the shop, but the machine take 35 seconds to reach top r.p.m. when starting and I can smell the V belts straining with all that torque. It takes 5 seconds immediately there after. The oil must get be getting heated by the motor.
> ...



It turns out that my V belts were loose.


----------



## precisionworks

> Where did you get your flex belts


My last ones, purchased about a month ago, came from Motion Industries and cost about $10 less than Grainger:

http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/items/5A548?Pid=search

If you call Motion (or another power transmission house) have the belt description & part numbers ready. 







If you need a C or D section belt, have your credit card handy, as the minimum purchase is 10m


----------



## wquiles

alexmin said:


> BTW Where did you get your flex belts from? What about length and size?



Two sources:
Amazon - this link is just an example; probably not the right size/type:
http://www.amazon.com/Grizzly-H9815-Power-Twist-V-Belt/dp/B000M67TII/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&s=industrial&qid=1261753837&sr=8-5

Ebay:
http://cgi.ebay.com/Fenner-Drives-3L-Power-Twist-Plus-V-Belt-3-8-New-1-Ft_W0QQitemZ150388960868QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item2303e16e64

http://cgi.ebay.com/Fenner-Drives-Power-Twist-Plus-Link-V-Belt-1-2-New-4_W0QQitemZ150399462865QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item230481add1

You just have to make sure you get the right size/type. For the PM1235, they were the "B" size. The advantage of Ebay (if I recall correctly) is that you can order by the foot and get just what you need. 

The length you adjust a link at a time, so just measure the outer diameter of the current belts, multiply times 2 (since you have two belts), and then buy a package next size larger or length slightly longer so that you have extra links just in case.

Will


----------



## StrikerDown

I put Fenner power twists on my mill and it vibrated like crazy... until I figured out that one of the links was on inside out. Brand name to the out side!

They seem noisier when new but they seem to break in and they are soooo much smoother running right out of the box than Chinese belts. The smoothness is evident in the finish of the parts cut.


----------



## precisionworks

From the Fenner Drives catalog:

http://www.fennerdrives.com/catalogs/hpcvbelt.pdf


----------



## alexmin

Will,

can you please double check the belt type? Matt emailed me that the belt on PM1236 marked as "*A787*" Not sure if the first *A* stands for belt type or something else.


----------



## wquiles

alexmin said:


> Will,
> 
> can you please double check the belt type? Matt emailed me that the belt on PM1236 marked as "*A787*" Not sure if the first *A* stands for belt type or something else.



Opps - my bad. I just went and look, and sure enough, I do have A size belts in there. Here are the photos I just took for you:











here is the A next to a B size (obviously too big for the lathe):






I also did a quick measurement on the outside, and it came right at 3 ft in length 

Will


----------



## alexmin

Guys,

What size cutoff blade will fit into holder that come with PM1236 or Phase II holders?

Do you have any recommendations for me on cutoff inserts for stainless steel and Al?


----------



## wquiles

I believe it is designed for 1/2" tall blades (maybe 5/8"), but I don't remember exactly, as I before I ever used mine it was modified to fit these Micro 100 Carbide-tipped blades (which are 3/4" tall):










Will


----------



## darkzero

wquiles said:


> I believe it is designed for 1/2" tall blades (maybe 5/8"), but I don't remember exactly, as I before I ever used mine it was modified to fit these Micro 100 Carbide-tipped blades:
> 
> Will


 
EDIT: oops, 11/16", AXA-100 is 1/2" 





alexmin said:


> Guys,
> 
> What size cutoff blade will fit into holder that come with PM1236


 
So the PM1236 comes with a parting blade holder?


----------



## alexmin

I understand I'll be getting :

-1 Wedge Type Quick Change Tool Post
-1 Straight Turning/Facing Holder
-1 Turning/Facing/Boring Holder
-1 Heavy Duty Boring Holder
-1 Parting Tool Holder
-1 Knurling Tool Holder.
Comes with a Universal Mounting Block that Buyer Machines to Fit Their Specific Lathe's Compound Rest.
Tooling is Precision Hardened and Ground for Long Life
Interchangeable with Aloris and Dorian Holders of the Same Series
10 Year Warranty


----------



## darkzero

alexmin said:


> I understand I'll be getting :
> 
> -1 Wedge Type Quick Change Tool Post
> -1 Straight Turning/Facing Holder
> -1 Turning/Facing/Boring Holder
> -1 Heavy Duty Boring Holder
> -1 Parting Tool Holder
> -1 Knurling Tool Holder.
> Comes with a Universal Mounting Block that Buyer Machines to Fit Their Specific Lathe's Compound Rest.
> Tooling is Precision Hardened and Ground for Long Life
> Interchangeable with Aloris and Dorian Holders of the Same Series
> 10 Year Warranty


 
Cool, even better! I had no idea as I never asked, was planning on selling the stock QCTP anyway. I guess I'll keep the holders then. Can't wait, mine supposed to arrrive this Wed but unfortunately I'll have to reschedule to Mon because of inventory that day. Oh man, going to be a very long week. :candle:


----------



## alexmin

darkzero said:


> Cool, even better! I had no idea as I never asked, was planning on selling the stock QCTP anyway. I guess I'll keep the holders then. Can't wait, mine supposed to arrrive this Wed but unfortunately I'll have to reschedule to Mon because of inventory that day. Oh man, going to be a very long week. :candle:


I would not bet on this 100% This information was communicated to me by Matt verbally over a phone line. I could have misheard him due to my poor English(and wishful thinking). After all I've began to study English at ripe age of 21  and my English teacher has never even visited English speaking country(Iron curtain etc). 
My native language is not even in Germanic group.


----------



## darkzero

alexmin said:


> I would not bet on this 100% This information was communicated to me verbally by Matt. I could have misheard him due to my poor English(and wishful thinking). After all I've began to study English at ripe age of 21  My native language is not even in Germanic group.


 
No worries Alex. I did remember Matt mentioning something about a QCTP. The PM12X36 page also states that it comes with a wedge QCTP set with 5 holders. If I don't receive one, I'm not too concerned & I won't be asking Matt about it since I've already got another QCTP. I'm just thankful for the unbeatable service he has given me & I'm sure to everyone else. I've never made a purchase where someone was so helpful. I understand that the purchase was a fair amount of money but you don't even get 1/8 of the service of Matt when buying a new car. I would buy all my machining needs from Matt if I could


----------



## darkzero

Will, what is the total length of the of your machine, say the length of the chip pan from end to end? Not so much concerned about how much the drive train cover sticks past the chip pan unless it's alot. Just trying to get an idea if it will fit in the same area that my current setup is sitting without having to make more room for the 12x36. 

My current work bench is 54" long with room to spare on the sides & rear for access & I want to move things around now to be ready. The Grizzly G4003G manual says to allow 80" in length for the machine & that the machine is really only 56" long. I don't thing I will really need the extra 24" of dead empty space to right since I have my air compressor to right which sits low & is portable anyway. I want to move my current workbench so that it sits vertical to the 12x36 on the left. Does the drivetrain cover swing out on hinges or does unscrew to be completely removed from the machine?


----------



## bluwolf

darkzero said:


> Will, what is the total length of the of your machine, say the length of the chip pan from end to end? Not so much concerned about how much the drive train cover sticks past the chip pan unless it's alot. Just trying to get an idea if it will fit in the same area that my current setup is sitting without having to make more room for the 12x36.
> 
> My current work bench is 54" long with room to spare on the sides & rear for access & I want to move things around now to be ready. The Grizzly G4003G manual says to allow 80" in length for the machine & that the machine is really only 56" long. I don't thing I will really need the extra 24" of dead empty space to right since I have my air compressor to right which sits low & is portable anyway. I want to move my current workbench so that it sits vertical to the 12x36 on the left. Does the drivetrain cover swing out on hinges or does unscrew to be completely removed from the machine?


 
Will,

I just got mine before Christmas. It's up on the stand but that's about it so far.

The length of the chip pan is 61 3/8" long. The drivetrain cover only sticks out the side of the chip tray about 3/4". It has 2 thumbscrews (top and bottom) holding it on. I left 24" behind mine. I've got my toolbox sitting about 6" to the right of the lathe. But it's on wheels so it's not a problem. In other words, no, I wouldn't think your compressor sitting there is gonna be a problem

Mike


----------



## darkzero

bluwolf said:


> Will,
> 
> I just got mine before Christmas. It's up on the stand but that's about it so far.
> 
> The length of the chip pan is 61 3/8" long. The drivetrain cover only sticks out the side of the chip tray about 3/4". It has 2 thumbscrews (top and bottom) holding it on. I left 24" behind mine. I've got my toolbox sitting about 6" to the right of the lathe. But it's on wheels so it's not a problem. In other words, no, I wouldn't think your compressor sitting there is gonna be a problem
> 
> Mike


 
Thanks Mike, really appreciate it & is very helpful. :thumbsup:


----------



## bluwolf

darkzero said:


> Thanks Mike, really appreciate it & is very helpful. :thumbsup:


 
Your very welcome. It's about time I can help instead of just asking questions. When are you expecting your lathe?

Mike


----------



## darkzero

bluwolf said:


> Your very welcome. It's about time I can help instead of just asking questions. When are you expecting your lathe?
> 
> Mike


 
Tracking number shows that it's projected to arrive tomorrow. I'm hoping it does arrive this week to schedule the delivery for next Monday.


----------



## alexmin

Guys,

what live center do you recommend?
How much I should expect to pay for decent one? On eBay imports starts at $30 and it goes up to $400 for a high precision good brand name live center.


----------



## wquiles

alexmin said:


> Guys,
> 
> what live center do you recommend?
> How much I should expect to pay for decent one? On eBay imports starts at $30 and it goes up to $400 for a high precision good brand name live center.



Enco had some USA made live centers, which if I recall were just North of $100, but not much. They were still much cheaper than something from Royal, for example.

Truth is that I do have one of those cheap ones from Ebay, and for the projects I have been doing they work just fine, specially to start out with a new lathe.

Now that I know a little bit more, and with advice from Barry, I save money and from time to time I replace some of the cheap/Asian parts with higher quality parts, but if the money is not there, I just keep using the cheap parts with no problems 

Will


----------



## precisionworks

> They were still much cheaper than something from Royal, for example.


Royal is pricey, but some of that price is a prepayment for future service. We had a BIG Royal live center, #6 MT, that fit the two largest lathes in the shop ... $1258 is the list price today. The boss was mounting a large diameter shaft, suspended from the bridge crane, and the end of the shaft caught the tip of the nearly new center. Broke the tip off pretty cleanly, and damaged the bearing in the process. He was sick. I phoned Royal and asked if that was covered under warranty (you know the answer to that), but they said they would rebuild it to new specs for $500. Took about three weeks and saved the company over $700.

http://www.royalprod.com/img/category/upload/Page_00%20461.pdf

I'm not suggesting that Royal in the only center to have, and it is hard to justify their prices for a small commercial shop or home shop. The made in USA centers from Enco look nice, and will probably be what I buy to replace a worn out Skoda (Check Republic).


----------



## alexmin

From what I found on misc. machining forums Bison makes good products.

I am eying a Bison live center for $120 here:
http://www.victornet.com/report/Lathe-Centers-Live/138.html


BTW victornet.com often have better price on many tooling then any eBay vendor. (I have no connection to this site whatsoever)


----------



## precisionworks

I believe this is the same center ... for $20 less 

http://cgi.ebay.com/NEW-Bison-Live-...QQptZBI_Tool_Work_Holding?hash=item4838c84b24


----------



## alexmin

Not really 
One is "Precision - 0.0003" concentricity " another one is "Super Precision - 0.0001" concentricity "


----------



## precisionworks

> One is "Precision - 0.0003" concentricity " another one is "Super Precision - 0.0001"


Good eye, Alex


----------



## alexmin

I found the same live center even cheaper. $90 at _Ajax!_


----------



## mototraxtech

I have been following this thread for awhile now because it happens to be the most complete lathe setup thread on the internet I sure.

I dont mean to hijack on my first post but I just purchased a PM 1127VF lathe from matt. It should be here early next week. Are the steps to leveling and setting it up any different than the bigger ones. Also any tips on the first things a guy should do. This was buy far the first big machine purchase I have ever made and I want to do stuff right the first time.

Thanks!


----------



## darkzero

mototraxtech said:


> I just purchased a PM 1127VF lathe from matt. It should be here early next week.



Awesome! Please post pics when you get it. I never found pics of it from owners anywhere on the net. I originally purchased the same lathe but later changed my order for the 1236 for various reasons. Matt says it's a great lathe which has many nice features for the price!

Oh & welcome to CPF!


----------



## precisionworks

All caught up with outside work ... one of my customers has a never ending list of projects, like add branch circuits to an energized 240v panel - no fun there but it pays the bills. So your Dorian base goes on the mill today & ships out tomorrow


----------



## wquiles

mototraxtech said:


> Also any tips on the first things a guy should do. This was buy far the first big machine purchase I have ever made and I want to do stuff right the first time.


Basic list:
- cleaning everything
- lubing everything with the proper oils
- follow wiring procedure for your machine
- once safely running, follow the break-in period for your machine

-> the best part - start using it and start getting familiar with the lathe and what it can do 

As always please be safe 

Will


----------



## mototraxtech

darkzero said:


> Awesome! Please post pics when you get it. I never found pics of it from owners anywhere on the net. I originally purchased the same lathe but later changed my order for the 1236 for various reasons. Matt says it's a great lathe which has many nice features for the price!
> 
> Oh & welcome to CPF!




You bet there will be lots of pictures. I look to take pictures of everything. And to get things started off I took a few pictures of the tooling that I have gotten so far for the new lathe. I will start a new thread and post them there as to not clutter the original thread starter post with my stuff.:twothumbs


----------



## darkzero

precisionworks said:


> All caught up with outside work ... one of my customers has a never ending list of projects, like add branch circuits to an energized 240v panel - no fun there but it pays the bills. So your Dorian base goes on the mill today & ships out tomorrow


 
Sounds good Barry, thanks. I'm back from Vegas now. :wave:


----------



## precisionworks

My apologies, Will, as your part is not yet done. Got sidetracked by two customers with "right now" jobs that should be finished on Friday. I'll get to it sooner if there's any possible way :sigh:


----------



## psient

Alan B said:


> Will, I did the DC motor/controller on my G0516 Lathe, but I would do the AC VFD next time.
> 
> -- Alan



HI All:

I recently purchased a PM 1340. I have info concerning the installation on a thread here at CPF:

https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/251764

I also have similar info posted on Benchrest Forums

http://www.benchrest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=66202

I see that there is a control module for the VFD in the photos on post # 28.

I was wondering. Since I already have a RPC (5hp 230 v) how would I set up for an AC VFD?






Would I bypass the voltage conversion in the module and simply use the speed control? Then simply buy the appropriate motor?

Can I upgrade the HP on the motor on the lathe as well?

How would you proceed?

Thanks. Any and all comments are appreciated.

Jon


----------



## wquiles

psient said:


> HI All:
> 
> I recently purchased a PM 1340. I have info concerning the installation on a thread here at CPF:
> 
> https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/251764
> 
> I also have similar info posted on Benchrest Forums
> 
> http://www.benchrest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=66202
> 
> I see that there is a control module for the VFD in the photos on post # 28.
> 
> I was wondering. Since I already have a RPC (5hp 230 v) how would I set up for an AC VFD?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Would I bypass the voltage conversion in the module and simply use the speed control? Then simply buy the appropriate motor?
> 
> Can I upgrade the HP on the motor on the lathe as well?
> 
> How would you proceed?
> 
> Thanks. Any and all comments are appreciated.
> 
> Jon



Jon,

From what I understand, you can't have a RPC and a VFD at the same time - they are both trying to convert the 220V single phase to 220V 3 phase. The speed control feature is one of the many reasons (including soft start, ramp up, ramp down, etc.) I consider a VFD superior to the RPC. 

I am sure that Barry, our resident VFD expert, will chime in shortly


----------



## precisionworks

> you can't have a RPC and a VFD at the same time


You can power a VFD from a rotary converter, as long as the VFD is 3ph input. Most of us buy VFD's that are 1ph input with 3ph output, but there are tons of freq drives that accept only 3ph input.



> Can I upgrade the HP on the motor on the lathe as well?


The rotary converter will typically start a motor that's half as large as the idler motor. If your idler is 10hp, it will start a 5hp (and sometimes larger) motor.


----------



## wquiles

precisionworks said:


> You can power a VFD from a rotary converter, as long as the VFD is 3ph input. Most of us buy VFD's that are 1ph input with 3ph output, but there are tons of freq drives that accept only 3ph input.
> 
> The rotary converter will typically start a motor that's half as large as the idler motor. If your idler is 10hp, it will start a 5hp (and sometimes larger) motor.



Thanks much for clarifying that Barry :thumbsup:


----------



## alexmin

My PM1236 manual says to use #20 oil and oil gun to fill oil caps
What is #20 oil? Is it the same as SAE-20?

What about the oil gun? 
Right now I am using the little plastic bottle with metal spout that came with my lathe. It is not the best tool as the oil does not want to go inside the oil cap and just paddle around it. For now I have put way oil #2 in it. It might be too thick to go into those tiny oil caps.


----------



## wquiles

alexmin said:


> My PM1236 manual says to use #20 oil and oil gun to fill oil caps
> What is #20 oil? Is it the same as SAE-20?
> 
> What about the oil gun?
> Right now I am using the little plastic bottle with metal spout that came with my lathe. It is not the best tool as the oil does not want to go inside the oil cap and just paddle around it. For now I have put way oil #2 in it. It might be too thick to go into those tiny oil caps.



As a data point, I am using Mobil way oil on everything:
Mobil Way Oil #2

Will


----------



## mototraxtech

wquiles said:


> As a data point, I am using Mobil way oil on everything:
> Mobil Way Oil #2
> 
> Will




Thats what im am doing also. I got a good deal on it, two gallons for $30 shipped and it seems fine.


----------



## precisionworks

> What is #20 oil? Is it the same as SAE-20?



Most references today are for ISO Viscosity Grades (VG).






ISO VG20 is roughly equal to SAE 5W.


----------



## alexmin

Guys,

since I have replace stock motor with new 3ph I am looking for a new motor pulley with 7/8" bore.

The stock pulley is two groove two step pulley. Someone suggested just to get two pulleys and put them side by side on the motor shaft.
The problem is that most motor shaft are too short for that.
My new motor shaft is 2.25" long and a single pulley is about 2" long.

Any advise is appreciated.

Alex


----------



## precisionworks

A 2-groove sheave with .875" bore is usually an in stock item at most distributors. Check with Motion Industries for price & availability.


----------



## alexmin

This is not just a regular two-groove sheave. It is like a two step pulley with each step having 2-grooves (totaling 4 grooves)


----------



## 65535

You can either bore out the ID of the old pulley and cut a new keyway, or I would probably just get a two groove pulley and get a size that gave me the RPM range I want, i seriously doubt you'll be changing them often, if ever from one size to another.


----------



## precisionworks

> I would probably just get a two groove pulley and get a size that gave me the RPM range I want


+1

My drill press has a 4 step pulley. Step one gets used most of the time, step 2 a little, step 3 & 4 must have some use that I haven't figured out  VFD control makes life much more simple.


----------



## wquiles

precisionworks said:


> Check with Motion Industries for price & availability.


+1

link ...


----------



## wquiles

Will (darkzero) recently modded his PM1236 to add an adjustable arm for the carriage lock, and after checking with him where he got his, I ordered something similar from the same outfit.

Here is my PM1236 with the "stock" carriage lock - a simple hex wrench:

















I ended up ordering a slightly different piece from the one Will ordered:











Here is the new adjustable arm next to the original screw. On a tip from Will I ordered the screw longer since I will be needing spacers for the hole:






Here is the carriage lock piece, that clamps to the underside of the ways:






I did not have spacers of the right OD, so I cut my own:
















This is why I needed 4 spacers:






Open/loose:






Closed/locked:
















And of course like the one Will bought you raise to disengage and adjust. Thanks Will for a great modification to the lathe :twothumbs


----------



## tino_ale

great job !!!


----------



## precisionworks

Very nice ... changes the entire appearance of the cross slide


----------



## darkzero

wquiles said:


> I ordered something similar


 
Cool! :thumbsup: 

Oh man you got one of the expensive ones! I just love the look of brushed stainless steel, almost makes me want to go & get the style I originally wanted (I don't want to spend even more money). :whoopin:

The more & more I use it the more I love it, so convienent & Will I'm sure you will agree. Great addition to any lathe. The other day I was working on my NIMS shaft project which is cold rolled steel. Each time I turned a shoulder, as I came to the final diameter feeding the carriage torward the spindle, when I got to my mark, I could easily lock the carriage then proceed to back out the crossslide to face that shoulder.

May not sound like a big deal but there were many times on my 8x14 when doing the same type of operation or even just facing, anytime I would take a deep cut (for the size of lathe) in a hard metal, the carriage would tend to push itself away from the part which would result in a convex face. With the carriage lock I never experience this anymore on the new lathe.

Although it looks like your all set...... since then I made a new thinner spacer for mine. I was getting tired of large chips getting caught under the handle. The new spacer was made out of drill rod to minimize the gap between the handle & the carriage without rubbing but it looks like the spacer on your is already perfect.


----------



## darkzero

wquiles said:


>


 

Just a thought, would be cool if you could get matching green balls for the spindle power & carriage lock handle like Barry & I have matching red ones.


----------



## precisionworks

Funny that I never noticed the color match 

Reid Tool has everything you need (or want) ...

http://www.reidsupply.com/GrpResults.aspx?pid=10022720&aitm=B-23&apid=10022720


----------



## wquiles

precisionworks said:


> Funny that I never noticed the color match


+1

Never noticed until Will pointed it out just now 

The difference in colors does not bother me - it actually gives it a kind-of "kludgey" look which is actually not bad 

Important thing is that the new SS handle is AWESOME. Too bad I actually waited more than a year to do this simple and significant upgrade :shakehead


----------



## alexmin

Will,
these levers also come with handle slightly bent upward. Having tried yours do you think upward bent handle would be more convenient?

Alex


----------



## wquiles

alexmin said:


> Will,
> these levers also come with handle slightly bent upward. Having tried yours do you think upward bent handle would be more convenient?
> 
> Alex



Yes, and I though long and hard about it, but decided to order the straight lever to keep a lower profile - at least as low as possible. Even now the new lever is still higher than the hex wrench I used to use, so I did not wanted an even larger profile. I was also careful to note the OD of the base in the new lever to make sure it would not interfere with the DRO cover, but as you can see from the pictures I got decent clearance there as well.

Due to the improved ergonomics and leverage arm this SS piece definitely feels much better while in actual use than the hex wrench


----------



## wquiles

darkzero said:


> Although it looks like your all set...... since then I made a new thinner spacer for mine. I was getting tired of large chips getting caught under the handle. The new spacer was made out of drill rod to minimize the gap between the handle & the carriage without rubbing but it looks like the spacer on your is already perfect.


Thanks for the tip on the swarf/debris getting caught under the handle. I will let you know once I use it more as I can always try to make it even closer like you did with the thinner washer.


----------



## cmacclel

Wow I'm shocked!

Will (Quiles) actually bought something already made! I thought he would of had a 2 page tuturial on how to make your own locking lever 

I never used the locking lever / locking bolt on my grizzly.

Mac


----------



## wquiles

There is always a first time for everything :naughty:


----------



## precisionworks

> I thought he would of had a 2 page tutorial


:lolsign:



> I never used the locking lever


Mine gets frequent use on the "new" lathe, just as it did on the South Bend. Primarily for facing & parting.


----------



## wquiles

precisionworks said:


> Mine gets frequent use on the "new" lathe, just as it did on the South Bend. Primarily for facing & parting.


That is why it is so sad that I waited so long to get this new SS lever - I "do" use the carriage lock every single time the carriage is not supposed to move. Like you I use the carriage lock every single time I face and do part operations. I got used to it with the less rigid 8x, and how with the 12x I still use it :thumbsup:


----------



## precisionworks

> with the 12x I still use it


The cross slide on my 14x40 weighs a few hundred pounds, but can be moved with a firm push of the hands. No matter how much they weigh, unless locked in position with ball screws or a carriage lock, they are likely to move.


----------



## saltytri

Thanks for the good idea! A scrap of 12L14 and a piece of S/S rod from the junkbox were easily combined with a hardware store ball to make a very useful locking lever. I was using a dedicated hex key but this is so much better.


----------



## darkzero

Looking great David! :thumbsup:


----------



## saltytri

Thanks, Will. Once again, this is evidence that one good reason to have machine tools is to make parts for your machine tools!


----------



## Clark

I lost one of the cover nuts.
I made a new one.
I knurled it.
I cold blued it.
The threads are 10 x 1.5 mm metric.


----------



## wquiles

It is awesome when you can make/fix your own tools


----------



## wquiles

By the way, remember my home-made lathe lamp?












Either my eyes are getting used to the old amount of light, or my flashaholic nerve was twitching, or I just wanted something different, but I decided I wanted a "little" more power, so I updated from the old U-bin 3W LED's (remember those? !!!) to older, but more powerful (but still ancient by CFP's standards) V-vin 5 Watt emiters:






I first re-surfaced the copper piece:






And installed the new emiters:






The new setup is "definitely" brighter than before. I think I ended up driving them at slightly over 1 Amp per string (two in series, and two of these in parallel) - but it also gets a little bit warmer (even with the built-in fan) so time will tell how well it holds up 

Will


----------



## wquiles

A couple of minor upgrades/updates ...

Since I routine need more space for my magnetic tools, I made two "L" shaped brackets to give me more surface area on the carriage:












In preparation for the 5HP VFD conversion, I installed a local 220V switch. Right now the output feeds the 220V box on the lathe (yellow cable), but once I am done with the VFD conversion, that output will feed the VFD control box:







And finally, I decided to re-clean my 6-jaw, set-tru Bison chuck as it was getting dirty. But instead a superficial cleaning, since it has been almost a year, I did another full disassembly/cleanup/re-lube.

I of course started by removing the chuck's jaws, and then the chuck itself, to then clean the mounting plate:






I made sure the 3 engaging D1-4 "bolts" were tight, using the Barry Milton "method". By the way, this is a very, very rare photo, as I "never" remove the 6-jaw from the lathe!






Yup, the chuck was "dirty" (jaws already cleaned in this photo):
















Parts cleaned:






Now ready for assembly:






All bolted together, but not yet done with the set-tru operation:






All done. On my Interapid 0.0005" indicator the needle barely moved the thickness of a line!:












But I noted a tiny bit of flex, so I decided to do the whole job and take a look at the bearing pre-load. Started by removing the sheave at the main gearbox since it is in the way of the bearing cover:






And by the way, something I did not quite know: I though that the lathe brake was metal on metal. I actually did not realize it was a "true braking" system with brake pads. I will certainly be using the brake a LOT more often from now on 






Bearing cover removed:











The bearing was not "loose", but I went ahead and made it "a tad tighter". I can still freely move the spindle with the chuck on it, and I did ran the lathe for a little while and nothing felt too warm around the bearing area (I know, not very scientific!), so I will leave it alone for now 


You guys remember that last time I changed the gear fluid that I left two hard-drive magnets inside? Well, the "do" work. Look at the very fine metallic dust around the edges of the magnet:


----------



## alexmin

Will, 

what VFD are you getting for your 5HP conversion?


----------



## wquiles

alexmin said:


> Will,
> 
> what VFD are you getting for your 5HP conversion?



Same brand/type as my two prior VDF conversions: AC Tech Vector Drive. This one will be a 10HP unit, but in a NEMA 1 enclosure, so I will be making/building my own closed enclosure to protect the drive/electronics.

AC Tech Vector Drive Plus, NEMA 1, 220 3-phase input, 10HP rated


----------



## alexmin

Is there any commercially available NEMA 4 enclosures what we can use to put VFD in for less money than just getting NEMA4 VFD? I am also planning to do similar conversion but was not sure if I should fork out the money for NEMA4 VFD.


----------



## wquiles

alexmin said:


> Is there any commercially available NEMA 4 enclosures what we can use to put VFD in for less money than just getting NEMA4 VFD? I am also planning to do similar conversion but was not sure if I should fork out the money for NEMA4 VFD.



Yes, of course there are NEMA 4 versions. But for the 3-phase input, 10HP output, they are "terribly" expensive - almost $400 additional 

Now, if you are doing a "standard' 3HP VFD using a 220V single phase input, then yes, the NEMA 4 makes more sense, and that is exactly what I used in my Knee Mill and Quincy Compressor VFD conversions.


----------



## alexmin

Not sure I understand. $400 extra for an NEMA4 VFD or $400 for a separate NEMA4 enclosure to put an NEMA1 VFD in?


----------



## alexmin

BTW I really think that NEMA4 is the only way to go. Many knifemakers who saved on NEMA4 VFD eventually "smoked" their NEMA1 VFDs. Metal grinding releases enough metal dust and particles in the air to eventually short out an exposed VFD.


----------



## wquiles

alexmin said:


> Not sure I understand. $400 extra for an NEMA4 VFD or $400 for a separate NEMA4 enclosure to put an NEMA1 VFD in?



3-phase in, 10-HP VFD NEMA 1 = around $500

3-phase in, 10-HP VFD NEMA 4 = around $900




alexmin said:


> BTW I really think that NEMA4 is the only way to go. Many knifemakers who saved on NEMA4 VFD eventually "smoked" their NEMA1 VFDs. Metal grinding releases enough metal dust and particles in the air to eventually short out an exposed VFD.



100% agreed in the need for protection. It is just that for a "lot" less than $300-400 I can create a very nice enclosure. Which is why I noted above that I will be creating an enclosure for my NEMA 1 VFD.

10HP NEMA 1 VFD + "wquiles-built custom enclosure" = 10HP NEMA 4 VFD


----------



## precisionworks

> commercially available NEMA 4 enclosures what we can use to put VFD in for less money than just getting NEMA4 VFD?


That depends :nana:

Figure the volume of the drive (LxWxH) in cubic inches or cubic feet. To put the drive in a totally closed (NEMA4) box requires that the box is 400% larger than the drive. Say that the drive is one cubic foot (like a 10hp drive might be), the enclosure must be a *minimum* of four cubic feet so that heat escaping from the drive will radiate out through the enclosure. It's easy to end up with a larger than desired enclosure.

Then all control functions have to be remoted, as the keypad is no longer accessible without opening the enclosure door. And the enclosures are not cheap, as they must be made watertight & dust proof, meaning (at a minimum) a fully gasketed door with multiple hold down latches.

You can certainly make it work, but it's a project that will entail some expense for the enclosure, some cost for the remote switches & speed pot, & some time to put it all together. And you'll end up with a large enough box that it may not fit where you need it to go.


----------



## wquiles

Admin: This is an update on my LED lamp for my lathe, so I am posting it here on an existing thread, but I am comparing a few LED's, so if you feel this should be on the LED sub-forum, no problem 

*****************************************************************
You guys know this DIY LED light for my lathe?






Well, I was over-driving those LED's "a little" so two of them died, and I decided to redo the LED's. This time I got some high CRI SSC P4's from our own TC

I also have on hand a small Ti light using the Hi-CRI Nichia NS6L183 Warm White LE, so I decided to compare these to my standard 35Watt Halogen lamp (definitely under-driven as it is obviously yellow).

These first group of pictures are with the white level set to auto - fixed manual exposure.

Here is the halogen:






The Hi-CRI Nichia NS6L183 Warm White LED (remember this is on a reflector):






The new flood based lathe lamp with 4x high CRI SSC P4's:








These set of pictures was shot still on the same fixed exposure as before, but with the white balance set to incandescent:


First the halogen bulb:






The Hi-CRI Nichia NS6L183 Warm White LED (remember this is on a reflector):






The new flood based lathe lamp with 4x high CRI SSC P4's:







And finally, both the halogen bulb and the new 4x high CRI SSC P4's, used together (like I normally do), with the camera on full auto and auto white balance - I should note that this is pretty much how it "looks" like in real life:










The combined light from both sources looks GREAT 

Will


----------



## unterhausen

do you have a link to the construction thread for the light?


----------



## wquiles

unterhausen said:


> do you have a link to the construction thread for the light?



Not a full thread, but earlier in this thread I showed some photos/steps:
https://www.candlepowerforums.com/posts/2906126&postcount=226


----------



## alexmin

Will,

have you tried to beef up the stand or bolt it to the floor?


----------



## wquiles

alexmin said:


> Will,
> 
> have you tried to beef up the stand or bolt it to the floor?



Funny you ask about that. Barry and I had a good talk on the phone recently about some ideas/suggestions to not only bolt it down, but to also try to make it stiffer and more bottom heavy. Once I get caught up on a couple of projects I will start work on some of those ideas.

Will


----------



## alexmin

If you don't mind can you please share these ideas?
Right now I am planning to get a steel MC type channel 1/2" thick, 9" wide, 60" long and weld or bolt steel plate 1/2"x9"x60" to the open part of the channel so I get a box shape. 
The lathe will be mounted on top of this box. The box will be bolted to the stand.

It'll make my lathe setup more rigid but does not address top heavy problem.
I don't have a welder yet but want to get one soon.
BTW I'll start a new thread on asking for welder recommendation.


----------



## wquiles

That is the same problem I have - to do what I want, and get the best results, it needs to be welded, and I don't have a welder yet. I want to get a MIG welder, and for the money, the best MIG welder you can buy is from these guys (HTP) - more expensive than the big store brands, but really built to last:
http://www.htpweld.com/products/mig_welders/index.htm


----------



## alexmin

HTP MIG 130 is in my price range at $400 but according to its specs the max recommended thickness is only 3/16" 


I need to weld 1/2" thick steel for a lathe stand.
Can this unit handle anything thicker than 3/16"?[FONT=&quot][/FONT]


----------



## gadget_lover

It ( the 130) will weld with proper penetration on 3/16 inch steel. It does not have enough amps to heat metal thicker than that deep enough for a proper weld. The heat will be soaked up by the mass of the metal surrounding the joint, leaving a weld that is mostly on the surface.

You can fudge a little. If you do thicker steel, you will need to preheat it to keep the heat from wicking away. If the piece is already 300 or 400 degrees then that's energy that the torch does not have to provide. You will also need to weld from both sides. 3/16 + 3/16 is almost enough. 

In my opinion, sometimes you don't need to have full strength welds. If the box is square, and the load is on a plate that is centered on the top of the box, then the welds are really just holding the sides in the proper plane, right? Many boxes are simply spot welded (or tack welded) along the sides. The metal itself is providing the structural strength.

Dan


----------



## gt40

wquiles said:


> That is the same problem I have - to do what I want, and get the best results, it needs to be welded, and I don't have a welder yet. I want to get a MIG welder, and for the money, the best MIG welder you can buy is from these guys (HTP) - more expensive than the big store brands, but really built to last:
> http://www.htpweld.com/products/mig_welders/index.htm


 
I have a MicroCut 875S plasma cutter from them and have been very happy. Just curious if you considered tig instead of mig?


----------



## alexmin

Actually I would prefer TIG to a MIG and If I can find a decent TIG machine in my price range I'll be very happy.


----------



## gt40

alexmin said:


> Actually I would prefer TIG to a MIG and If I can find a decent TIG machine in my price range I'll be very happy.


 
I have had a Thermalarc prowave 185tsw for 5 years and been very happy with it. Very adjustable. I have welded mostly aluminum + some stainless and carbon. There are used ones in good shape on ebay in the 700-1k range and I think it compares well to the other under 200 amp inverters.

Back on topic:



wquiles said:


> Admin: This is an update on my LED lamp for my lathe, so I am posting it here on an existing thread, but I am comparing a few LED's, so if you feel this should be on the LED sub-forum, no problem
> 
> *****************************************************************
> You guys know this DIY LED light for my lathe?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well, I was over-driving those LED's "a little" so two of them died, and I decided to redo the LED's. This time I got some high CRI SSC P4's from our own TC
> 
> I also have on hand a small Ti light using the Hi-CRI Nichia NS6L183 Warm White LE, so I decided to compare these to my standard 35Watt Halogen lamp (definitely under-driven as it is obviously yellow).
> 
> These first group of pictures are with the white level set to auto - fixed manual exposure.
> 
> Here is the halogen:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Hi-CRI Nichia NS6L183 Warm White LED (remember this is on a reflector):
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The new flood based lathe lamp with 4x high CRI SSC P4's:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> These set of pictures was shot still on the same fixed exposure as before, but with the white balance set to incandescent:
> 
> 
> First the halogen bulb:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Hi-CRI Nichia NS6L183 Warm White LED (remember this is on a reflector):
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The new flood based lathe lamp with 4x high CRI SSC P4's:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And finally, both the halogen bulb and the new 4x high CRI SSC P4's, used together (like I normally do), with the camera on full auto and auto white balance - I should note that this is pretty much how it "looks" like in real life:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The combined light from both sources looks GREAT
> 
> Will


 
Really awesome. I have been thinking I need a light on the lathe and you have really given me some ideas. Thanks for posting so much info as usual:thumbsup:


----------



## Clark

My Precision Matthews is not new, I got it because of this thread, over a year ago.

I am starting to build a carriage stop for it.
The ways have two trapezoidal features.
One measures 88 degrees and the other measures 88 degrees +.

My brother has a 10 year old Jet 13x40 gear head lathe that has almost the same Chinese ways. But his ways features measure 90 degrees.

If you set the shallow notch of a V block over the ways feature, it will rock back and forth on my lathe, but it is solid on my brother's.

When I cut the mirror image of this feature on the carriage stop, I will make it 90 degrees and then glass in the fit with epoxy.

Does anyone else have this problem?


----------



## precisionworks

> I would prefer TIG to a MIG



In order of required skill level, MIG needs the least training, TIG requires many times more, & stick (SMAW) requires many times more than TIG.

TIG allows precise heat control using either a foot or a hand device. Great for thin materials. No spatter, meaning no clean up, as metal is not passing across the arc. Great when appearance is important._ Slowest of the three processes, on a pounds per hour deposition rate. _On a per amp basis, machines are pricey.
MIG is the predominant process in industry today. Fast to learn, easy to control the puddle (even when out of position, like vertical or overhead). High deposition rates using any available wire (solid wire with gas shield or flux cored wired without gas). Using flux cored wire gives greater penetration. Machines are less expensive than TIG.

SMAW (stick) is the oldest of the processes, where a metal electrode is covered with a flux coating, so no shielding gas is required. A versatile process still in use in construction & pipeline industries. Machines are cheap, with the familiar Lincoln AC/DC 225/125 selling for under $600 delivered: http://www.amazon.com/dp/B000GBORWK/?tag=cpf0b6-20

If you're willing to invest the time to learn SMAW, get the Lincoln & have 225 amps of AC welding power.

If you want to quickly make good welds, buy a MIG machine. I've used the HTP MIG2400 for years without a bit of trouble: http://www.htpweld.com/products/mig_welders/mig_2400.html

If TIG appeals to you, plan to spend some time learning the process & a good bit of money for a machine. My HTP Invertig http://www.htpweld.com/products/tig_welders/tig201.html201 has done a nice job for many years: http://www.htpweld.com/products/tig_welders/tig201.html

FWIW, most of my jobs (both in shop & portable) are done with MIG. Some of my portable welding is done with SMAW, usually when a contractor requires that process. The TIG machine is used when speed is not an issue & appearance is important.


----------



## precisionworks

> I need to weld 1/2" thick steel for a lathe stand.
> Can this unit handle anything thicker than 3/16"?


Correct joint design is even more important than available amps. To take the AWS Structural Welding Test, two pieces of 3/8" plate are each beveled at 22.5 degrees (45 degree included angle), and the plates are gaped (open root) by 1/4". Amperage is set around 130 amps for flat & horizontal, 115 amps for vertical up.

120-130 amps is plenty for 3/8" plate *if *the joint is correctly designed.


----------



## alexmin

Barry,

thank you for the info. Seems like I'll be in the $2000 neighborhood if I get HTP MIG 2400 + tank + helmet etc. 

BTW This is how I setup my lathe. For extra rigidity I've bolted steel angles(two on the bottom and one on top) alongside stand. In the process I found that my stand was out of square by almost 1" 
We have earthquakes here in California so the whole base is bolted to 4" wide channels to make it "tip-over proof" 
In any case this is only a temporary solution. I want to make my stand more rigid and massive. I am planning to add a heavy rectangular tube filled with concrete or sand between the stand and the lathe. The lathe is already kind of high for m(I am 5'8") so I'll probably have to cut 4" off the cabinet top sacrificing the cabinet's door.
From my previous experience I've learned that there is no such thing as too rigidity, weight or power when it come to stationary machines. 




















​


----------



## alexmin

I've installed a 2 HP motor + VFD on my lathe yesterday. :nana:
What a difference!!! 
My wife came down to the garage at 2 am to "gently remind me" to get back to the house. 

The lathe is pretty much silent now compared to how much noise it was making before. I am surprised that the gears do not make much sound. 

Eventually I'll get a 10 HP VFD + 5HP motor on this lathe so I don't have to change gears. Right now I have a single VFD that I share between my BP mill, 20" drill press, KMG belt grinder, 12" disc grinder and 14" band saw. All my machines have 2HP 3ph motors.


----------



## precisionworks

> the whole base is bolted to 4" wide channels to make it "tip-over proof"



Much like what I did to the South Bend. You will eventually forget that the channel iron is there & trip over it (at least I did). You may want to build tapered "ramps" on each side of the channel to avoid the trip hazard.

Or wear shoulder pads & knee pads :nana:


----------



## wquiles

Nice progress on your lathe Alex - nice job


----------



## Clark

I was not getting anywhere, until I realized I have the error in the ways angle in the wrong direction.

My ways are 91.5 degrees.

I have not glass bedded the steel base to the Aluminum body yet, until I make the shoes that fit on the bottom. The micrometer dial is built into a Forster Ultra seater die, that I have lying around. That die is 7/8-14 threads [the big hole in the body].


----------



## alexmin

When I was searching through my steel stock trying to find a suitable "L" bracket to copy cat Will I found a nice piece of 1/2" thick 8"x4" steel angle about 20" long. If I bolt it to the back of the slide just like Will did I'll have space for mounting lamps etc. plus adding 20 lb. should help to reduce chatter. 
Many lathes including the PM1236 have "unbalanced" (my term ) slide. On the front side it has the apron that weights probably 60 lb. and no weight in the back. It must create some twisting forces on the lathe bed. Given that PM1236 is not a Monarch in terms of rigidity adding weight on the opposite side of slide should help. 
If you Google for "lathe" images you'll find some lathes that have a MASSIVE slide. Must be for a reason.

What do you think?



wquiles said:


>


----------



## alexmin

removed my double post


----------



## precisionworks

> you'll find some lathes that have a MASSIVE slide. Must be for a reason


American Pacemaker immediately comes to mind, weighing more per inch of swing than any other brand that I've seen. Not just the slide, but also the head & tail stocks, bed, everything ... which is needed when a machine is expected to run 24/7/365 (wartime production).


----------



## Clark

I made a video of my carriage stop interacting with my DRO on my PM1236

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8paaESpjhco


----------



## wquiles

Why is the micrometer stop backwards? On all others that I have seen the micrometer dial is closer to the chuck while the hardened pin of the micrometer faces/touches the carriage.


----------



## precisionworks

> On all others that I have seen the micrometer dial is closer to the chuck


I also wondered about that.


----------



## Clark

This is one of those cost nothing to make projects.

The micrometer is a Forster Ultra seater die, that I have lots of lying around already.

The threads on one end are 7/8-14 and 40 TPI on the other end with the micrometer marking. I had to put the micrometer end where it will get bumped.

Here is a review of one:
http://www.6mmbr.com/catalog/item/1433308/945450.htm


----------



## KC2IXE

wquiles said:


> Why is the micrometer stop backwards? On all others that I have seen the micrometer dial is closer to the chuck while the hardened pin of the micrometer faces/touches the carriage.



Probably because he's using a seater die - the end that would be towards the headstock is spring loaded, and gives - the other end is solid - do he is actually stopping against the 'thimble' side. Interesting idea


----------



## Clark

I have never seen a carriage stop or used one.
I have seen old used ones on Ebay for sale.

I realize now what Wquiles and Precisionworks must be talking about.
With micrometer on the rights side, when I increase the numbers on the stop, the cutting depth gets smaller with a boring bar.

I would want the stop numbers to go up when the cutting depth goes up.

I could flip the die around and screw it in from the other side.
I could solder a bullet in a case, and shove it in the die.


----------



## Clark

I think I posted this around 11-13-2010, but candlepower lost it.







----------------------





I was doing the 100 hours gear oil change, trying to put some time on each gear first, and...
I had a key come loose in my threading gear box on my PM1236 Lathe.







I was afraid to take it apart because of what precisionworks said about getting them back together.

So I drilled and taped the shaft and counter sunk the key, got all the chips out with a vac and with a magnet tipped probe.
I clamped the key to the shaft with a 4-40 screw and Lok-tite.

Now it gets all 5 gears smoothly.


----------



## recDNA

sorry to interrupt - off topic - deleted


----------



## darkzero

recDNA said:


> I hope you guys don't mind an unrelated question? Well it is related to machining metal but not for a flashlight.
> 
> I am thinking of a project for a machinist I know but I don't want to ask him if it is so absurd I'll look like a fool.
> 
> Threre is an old fashioned Video Camera mount called an ENG mount that I would like an adapter to connect to a Nikon F Mount.
> 
> This means I would need an adapter to convert ENG (bayonet / 48mm flange distance) to F-Mount (Nikon bayonet / 46.5mm flange distance)
> 
> Would this be too difficult to machine? Feel free to pm me if you are in the mood to educate someone totally ignorant of your craft.
> 
> Thanks


 
You should try posting your own thread about this since it's way off topic from this thread. You will get much more exposure & I'm sure someone would be happy to help. Plus it would get buried in this very popular thread anyway (unless you're hinting Will to do it).


----------



## John Hill

My generic Chinese 12x36 lathe appears to be a close relative to the Matthews Precision 12x36, though there are small differences it does appear to be the same basic design although mine is a metric version. I have had it more than two years and it spent about 5 years sitting in a showroom before that.

The spindle bearings are noisy! I can hear a click or light thunk as I slowly turn the spindle! 

I want to take the spindle out the check what need replaced! 

I took the left hand bearing cover off, and the lid off. I cannot see how to pull the bearing on the left hand end? Any suggestions please?

I took the ring off the right hand end but it does not come off over the D1-4 mount, should it? I have taken the chuck off of course! 

With the lid off it looks like the gear to drive the lower gear box will slide off once I get that bearing removed and there is a black collar with two set screws that appears to hold the rest of the gears in position, I loosened the collar but it did not move.

So I am really at square one, any suggestions on how I should proceed to get the spindle out so that the bearings can be examined and if necessary replaced.


----------



## precisionworks

> The spindle bearings are noisy! I can hear a click or light thunk as I slowly turn the spindle!


John,

There are two ways to approach this, & the easiest is to wear ear protectors while running the machine so you cannot hear the noise. I'm really not trying to be funny. Consider it a minor annoyance, something that probably does not affect the work that you do, and keep making chips.

If you absolutely, positively, without a doubt cannot live with the noise, pulling the spindle is a risky op at best. I've worked on at least a dozen Asian lathes and only one of those needed spindle bearing replacement - the others needed only flushing of the old oil & adjustment of the preload. Eleven out of twelve, roughly 92%, did not need dis-assembly. Only if your bearings have been run bone try, or if the factory left casting sand or grit in the bearing housings, does the spindle need to be pulled.

IF you still want to pull the spindle, make sure you have a few hundred dollars to spend on this project. Front & rear bearings are not expensive, about $200 for the pair (based on a similar Jet lathe I did), but there's a high probability that something else will get broken while you're figuring out the removal process. Plan on another $200 or more to replace the parts that are damaged in dis assembly & re assembly.

The total bill to my customer was around $500 in parts & well over $1000 in labor (over 15 hours). It wasn't a terribly difficult job, but neither was it a cake walk.


----------



## John Hill

Thanks for the response Barry.
Thanks for the response Barry, I did notice when I took the lid off that although the oil is midway up the sight window the biggest gear is barely, if at all, dipping into the oil and consequently the bearings were on the dry side, not really dry but certainly not flooded. I put a bit more oil in. I have also got the information on the procedures for setting the preload which I will be able to do once I get a couple of 'C' spanners made.

John


----------



## John Hill

Taking heed of your advice Barry I decided to flush the bearings as much as possible while in situ and I made tools to do the preload adjustment.

I used the procedure in the Grizzly manual which is, induce clearance by wacking on the end of the spindle after loosening lock nuts then tighten while using a DTI until no further movement then a further 4mm turn of tightening.

Naturally enough it was not as simple as described and I was really glad I had taken the time to make tools for the job, a pin wrench to fit the spindle nose holes for the camlock and two 'C' spanners for the nuts. It was easy enough to see the movement initially but at the point when movement ceased to be indicated I found I could still cause .01mm deflection just by pushing my hand against the end of the spindle, then I found I could cause the same deflection just by pushing on the headstock itself. The spindle turns quite freely and is somewhat quieter than I recall. Time to give it a run and watch for temperature rise.


----------



## precisionworks

Some temp rise indicates correct preload, while little or no rise indicates not enough preload. It seems like I set both the mill & the lathe for around 20-30°F rise above ambient.


----------



## John Hill

I assume low preload is not harmful and that I can tweak the nuts if necessary to increase preload until I do get a temp rise? I shudder to think of the sickening 'click' that might come from the casting if I over tweak it.


----------



## Davo J

Hi John,
The Grizzly lathe manuals show how to set the preload.

Dave


----------



## John Hill

Thats what I was referring to Dave. They say to loosen the preload by knocking the end of the spindle, after loosening the nuts, then tightening until no further movement. Even though I made suitable tools for the job it is very difficult to see when the movement stops. Bearing in mind the apparent vulnerability of a thin cast iron box with a 2 inch bolt through it I have erred on the loose side and propose more tweaks until I can detect a temperature rise.

Here are the tools I made:-



wrenches by aardvark_akubra, on Flickr


----------



## precisionworks

Nice job on the hook spanners and pin spanner 

The headstock casting, on most lathes, is pretty robust. When setting the preload, you are eliminating the end play between the tapered bearings by compressing the bearings _just slightly._ Usually, as the end play is taken out, a small amount of drag can be detected when turning the spindle by hand - easier to feel on a lathe than on a mill for some reason. When that drag is felt, lock down the adjustment nuts & run the spindle first at the lowest rpm for about five minutes, monitoring the temp at each end of the spindle bore (an infrared thermometer (IRT) is really handy for this). You should get almost no temp rise at the lowest rpm. Go one speed higher, run for another five minutes, monitor temps, etc. When correctly set, the lathe should be able to run in the highest speed setting with no more than 20-30°F rise at either end of the spindle.

KBC has a good explanation here: http://www.promshop.info/cataloguespdf/kbc10.pdf

Nachi has a more detailed description: http://www.global.estgp.pt/engenhar...talogos/CatalogoRolamentos/NACHI/pdf/Tech.pdf

Here's what Nachi says (on page 223)



> Generally, rolling contact bearings are mounted so that in operation, there will be a small amount of internal clearance.
> 
> Applications may sometimes require that the bearings be provided with appropriate negative clearance called "preload" when assembled. Preload has various purposes and effects. Since an incorrect amount of preload may adversely affect the rolling resistance, life, temperature rise, sound, etc. of bearings; extreme care must be taken when applying preload.
> 
> 8.2.1 Purposes of Preload
> (1) Increases rigidity of a shaft (that is, preloading can help to decrease the deflection of shafting).
> (2) Enhances rotating accuracy of shaft. Minimizes axial movements and helps to prevent vibration and decrease noise.
> (3) Prevents fretting caused by external vibration.
> 
> Item 1 and 2 are pertinent with respect to proper gear engagement, rotating accuracy of precision machinery and resonance of
> electric motor rotors.



All high accuracy machines (lathe, mill, surface grinder, etc.) perform better with correct preload.


----------



## precisionworks

Interesting what preload does ...

Dialed in the Bison Set-Tru (with a piece of Thomson Linear shafting), had it running about .0004" TIR, which is acceptable. This was done with a cold spindle.

Set the levers to 2000 rpm, left the tip of the indicator on the shafting, and powered up the spindle. The needle wiggled back & forth at .0004" Tir for about 15 seconds, then the needle arc started to narrow. In 30 more seconds, the TIR showed .0003", and 60 seconds after that the needled barely moved, showing .0002" TIR (+/- .0001")

When the power is cut, the heavy 8" chuck spins down for quite a while, but when it is nearly stopped - it stops right now. If the chuck spins down and wants to coast forever, preload is probably not quite enough.


----------



## tino_ale

Hi,

Is there a way to adjust the preload using a torque wrench ? Just an idea, I wonder if it can be done


----------



## Davo J

John Hill said:


> Thats what I was referring to Dave.


 

Sorry John I missed that bit.

Dave


----------



## Programmergeek

*RUN AWAY FROM THIS LATHE!*

*THIS LATHE IS A NIGHTMARE!*

I needed, actually let’s say wanted a lathe I am a home hobbyist and wantedsomething that would look nice in the shop and be fun to work on so after allotof research and taking advice of people on the web I ordered a PM1236 with DROetc. Had a 3 month wait to get one and then I was traveling so about 5 monthslater last month I took delivery. Have been in hell ever since this hunk ofmetal had been sitting on my garage floor.

1. Every piece had been hit bent or paint scraped off I called PM about sometouch up and they said sorry out of luck. The back panel is so bad I have tounbend it and completely respray it just not to be to pissed off when I go inand look at it and so the machine looks somewhat nice.
See pics
http://photobucket.com/jasonlathe

2 Both cabinets are bent and smashed I called PM and have gotten differentstories. I figure I would just send them back and they would send mereplacements, right, no luck, no help 4 weeks after they have not called Icalled them 4 times and no one followed up guess they are hoping I will just goaway but not before I post every where my experience and pics. The left door issmashed in and I have to pry it open with a screw driver. When talking withMatt about 3 weeks ago he wants to try to get me a door and I have to grind offthe hinges and maybe reweld a hinge on or try to grind out the pin. The othercabinet is so bad bent it doesn’t sit on the floor level. He said this isnormal because concrete floors are not level, guess my square is not square,last time I checked square is 90deg all around. So no big deal right I figuredI could compensate so I ordered leveling feet from him this should help melevel it and it really should come with them anyhow. After an hour of retappingthem and cleaning out the threads they are on. 

3. Missing parts I went to mount this are there are no screws to mount it tothe bases they said they are in the cabinets, hence me prying the door off butthey are not in there. I don’t even know what else is missing. But I am goingon 3 weeks of calling missing parts ordering feet etc and the thing is a hunkof metal taking up 12 my garage. There was also an extra gear that was supposedto be included I have yet to find.
Overall I have been trying to get this thing together and every step of theway had been put on hold because of missing parts smashed parts that needrepair and retaping. This has some plastic parts on it I know I will break. Noinstructions. 

I AM SO SORRY I BOUGHT THIS POS. Anyhow it may be ok once assembles tweaked,unbent, painted and rebuilt but, but I will never again buy a machine off theinternet without looking at it. Even the manual readouts are total crap theyare stamped pieces of metal riveted on and not even straight. I think I havehad better Harbor Freight machines. Maybe at one point this was good but qualityis just not there and customer service when you need something is lacking Iguess they just got to busy and just want to sell machines Chinese machines andforget about them if they have an issues. I am willing to go way out of my wayto make this work considering it was new I should have to retouch repain unbendand order extra parts but I with all my effort still can't make it workable .


----------



## precisionworks

*Re: RUN AWAY FROM THIS LATHE!*

As frustrating as this has been for you, there are some points you may want to keep in mind ...



> Every piece had been hit bent or paint scraped off ... Both cabinets are bent and smashed ...



It is *always* the customers responsibility to inspect a freight shipment, whether that shipment is a lathe or a bag of Styrofoam packing peanuts. If the customer does not inspect each & every carton in the shipment, and signs the Bill of Lading, the trucking company is no longer responsible for any damage that they've done - much like giving the freight line a Get Out Of Jail Free card.

Had you inspected each carton, the damage should have been easy to spot. Bent and smashed cabinets never arrive in pristine shipping cartons. Had you reported the damage to the driver, or refused to accept the shipment, the freight line would have been responsible. Since you did neither, it's now your responsibility (not Matt's) to fix the damage. Tough way to learn a lesson.



> I ordered leveling feet from him this should help me level it and _it really should come with them anyhow_


There isn't a lathe sold today or in years past that comes with leveling feet. Used lathes sometimes do. Leveling feet are provided by the owner of the machine.



> I will never again buy a machine off the internet without looking at it.


Even looking at a lathe & running it under power is no guarantee that there will be no problems. To get a problem free lathe in the year 2011 means paying a minimum of $20,000 or more. There are ready to run machines from the USA & Eastern Europe that are plug-n-play, but they cost ten times more than a similar size Chinese machine. 

Here's one example ... my Chinese 14x40 heavy costs $11,950 (with taper attachment, DRO, & 5C collet chuck) plus truck freight. Fit & finish aren't terrible, but certainly nothing to write home about. Before starting the boring & reaming of flash lights, the alignment of the tailstock was checked - thank Goodness. Left-to-right alignment was dead on, which is no surprise since the set over is easily adjusted by even the lowest skilled Chinese worker. BUT the tailstock sat .010" low. No big deal, just five miserable hours of milling, grinding, scraping & shimming to correct a major defect that should have never passed quality control. The inside surfaces of the TS looked like they had been ground with a brick. All this on a machine costing nearly $12k.

Chinese machines, whether from Matt or Enco or Grizzly, will need some amount of work. Figure 40 hours more or less, normally done a few hours at a time as issues arise. Not much way around this, other than spending $20k or more.

Don't give up. You'll learn a lot about your machine as you work through each small problem. After a while, it will run the way you want it to & turn out nice work. It's a process that we all go through.


----------



## Programmergeek

*Re: RUN AWAY FROM THIS LATHE!*

I looked at the boxes they appeared to be in non smashed shape. The wood was worped and the thinest plywood I have ever seen, looked like it got wet but I didn't see any rust or water damage I looked for that. There was no way to unbox everything while they where here it took me an hour to get the metal bands and the box unnailed alone and I called you about an hour after I received it and you have pic that same day of the damage. Doubt the driver would of stayed around for hours while I unboxed it anyhow. 

Guess I signed for it, it is mind and all my problems glad that is your take on things. 

Now I go in the shop which use to be my haven and don't even want to be in it thanks to this thing.


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## Clark

*Re: RUN AWAY FROM THIS LATHE!*

My used Rockwell mill off Ebay arrived all broken up from shipping and I did not inspect before signing.
It had to be welded back together and all the handles replaced.
The shipping company offered 10 cents per pound for replacement for used cast machinery. They said it was my fault for not insuring it for it's high value.

My PM1236 arrived without assembly instructions. It was all straight forward, but the parts were heavy, and it took a day.

Years later, I am all settled in, and on a good day I use BOTH the lathe and the mill.

A friend has used the thin PM1236 crate plywood for the roof on a mobile chicken coop. I hit his apple tree with it, and the thin plywood peeled off.


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## darkzero

In all my previous jobs & current, it is the receiver's responsibility to inspect freight shipments before signing the waybill. Items shipped freight are commonly expensive items, if you suspect damage, you'll have the driver wait for you (reasonably).

When my PM1236 arrived at my home, I did just that, inspect for any possible signs of damage before signing off. It probably took me 20-30 mins tops to cut the bands for the cabinets, inspect the cabinets, & to remove the top or side panel to get a decent look inside. Warped wood & thin plywood, you expected better from something coming from China? The thin wood would have made it quicker to open it up for a peak anyway.

It's unfortunate you were unlucky with your lathe. Although frustrating, patience will get it up & running as it should. Sounds to me like most of your issues may possibly have been shipping damage related.


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## PEU

Chinese lathes usually come with two small tin cans of white and blue for touch ups, not that will solve your problems but it will make your machine better looking... 

OTOH, its naive to expect a machine to travel thousands of kilometers without a scratch. I'm sure you will be able to solve these problems sooner than later.


Pablo


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## wquiles

Sorry to hear you had this much trouble. You can see the pictures and state of my lathe when I got it, so I guess you can call me lucky in that mine arrived in pretty good shape - again just good luck.

My lathe had the DRO installed and was literally ready to run "as is" when I got it. Obviously as I stated using it and getting more comfortable with it I made adjustments here and there to my satisfaction, and now-a-days it turns out as good work as the apprentice machinist using it - enough for me to make some small amount of money!

One thing for sure - I don't care much for the shinny paint/dents - it will get dinged as you start using it more and more, and the paint will naturally start fading away from plain use and cleaning solvents/etc. - I would concentrate in getting the lathe assembled and then checking how well it runs, and then change whatever oils it has for new ones, once you finish the break-in procedure (I did all of this and it is detailed in this post).

Good luck. Please keep us posted once you get the lathe running


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## Programmergeek

Yea the paint doesn't bug me much the bent sheet metal door and cabnet does. Most of the dings I supect where not from the shipping company anyhow PM is just blaming them if you look some are on the bottom cornors of the machine where it was well protected and bolted to the pallet. I dont care about little dings I can touch them up. I am more pissed they are not lifting a finger to help me out and I they are great when I called them 5 times but nothing has happened. Also I am missing parts like the mounting bolts, I can't even put it together if I wanted to and they just tell me to keep looking for them like they will majically appear. 

Some support would be nice and some help afterthey way they shipped this to me. I doubt they even looked at the thing in thing in there shop or the tech was blind. by the dings onthe motor and areas you can see things where bouncing around in the container and not secured. The freight company would not of covered that and PM is stating it is the freight co problem. Again great understanding and support.


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## precisionworks

IMHO, you have only two choices.

The first is to place an ad on Craigslist or eBay, price the machine at half of what you paid for it (because of the extensive damage) and get it out of your life. Fast & easy, the only painful part being the loss of money.

The second option is more difficult - accept what you have & fix it. PM is under no obligation to do anything more than to ship you the lathe that you ordered. Matt is a super guy to work with ... unless someone is calling him names or spreading false accusations around the web. I have the occasional customer who's unhappy with a job I did for them - if they behave like a business person & are courteous & reasonable, the job gets redone quickly, often at no additional charge. If they insist on screaming, yelling, sending me threating emails or texts, my service is not quite as good - meaning that the rework will get done sometime this year & there will be an extra charge.

No offense meant, but you do remind me of the screaming customer. It's no wonder that Matt doesn't drop whatever he's doing to help you.

Either accept what you have & figure out how to fix it, or get rid of it. I don't believe you'll find a great deal of sympathy on any of the machining forums.


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## Programmergeek

Yes I am trying to work around it but it is kind of hard when you don't havethe parts to put the thing together in the first place. Matt was great with hispre sales support and really understood the machine and my needs. I still thinkthe machine will serve my needs. It was fine when it arrived and they said sendthem pic and they would remedy it, I did not ask for them to replace the machineonly the bent cabinet door and cabinet. Although that kind of quickly changed aweek later when I guess they figured it is not so easy. I never one yelled andonly spoke to Matt once all the other calls was to someone else in his office.Now it has been 5 phone calls and they never one called me to follow up andpretty much when I am calling them it is the same storie. Pretty much it is nottheir fault, I think they just can’t get parts for them. It's great when you buy a machine and theyhave great pre sales support. Tech support is also good but costs them verylittle. It's a whole different sortie when something bad happens, and I reliesit is my fault for signing the receiving paper before I had the thing totallyassembled and inspected for damage, honest the box looked fine.

When the customer goes out of his way to make a bad product work that is supposedto be new repaint scratched items and the dealer doesn't even follow up or tryto help or replace missing part that pisses me off. I bought this because if the good reviews online and I feel it is my responsibility to also add the positive and neg to theon line forums. Maybe someone can learnfrom my mistakes.


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## tino_ale

I would think the best thing you can do is get over it and realize that even if frustrating, your issues are minor no matter what. Some WWII machines are beaten to death aesthetic wise yet remain exceptionnal machines because they are extremely sturdy, heavy, rigid and true.

I can understand your frustration, I'm frustrated myself when I get a "brand new" item with aesthetic issues on it, but it's to be expected on a chinese machine, as already said. You get what you pay for. At this level of price any machine has some irregularities here and there. It is not a problem as long as it doesn't ruin the purpose of the machine.

Just fix it and enjoy it because it seem to be a very capable machine for the price. If you wanted a perfect machine you should have paid x10, x20 what you paid.


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## Programmergeek

I don't mean to keep posting I am trying, Iran out twice to get parts so far. It is just frustrating when it is new, notall the damage was from the freight company so PM really should make good on someof it. It seems like they are just using the Freight Co. as an out since theydon’t have parts. Also it was handled verypoorly I notified them hours after I received it and sent them pics withinhours of receiving the machine. They indicated they would take care of it thenthey didn't! ONCE THEY TOLD ME they would take care of it they should have.Also they should of notified the freight company right away. I doubt they did.Now it would be weird if I called the freight co. Truth is they are suppose tolook at these machines when they get them from china and that obviously didn'thappen well or they just looked at the box. Digs scratches are not nice and Idon't like them but I expect some. Missing parts, bent parts, are somethingthey should correct and stand behind if they want to sell machines. Basically Ipaid for a lathe I did not receive a whole lathe. Chinese or not that doesn’tmatter harbor freight has better customer service then they do. I hope mysituation is an isolated one Matt seems like a great guy and I don't think itis his fault probably just a comedy of errors and maybe one or two of theworkers there.


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## Programmergeek

Well after several months I never got a cabnet or door apperently they can't get parts for these! So I am stuck with making what I have work PM is not standing behind it once I signed the receiveing papers it is mind that is there stand. Really should of bought the Grizzley they at lest can get parts and have sttod behind every thing I bought from them. Anyhow I am trying to mount the DRO and I have the DRO some parts to mount to the bottom but no screws it looks like it should pount to a post mounted on the back of the lathe but there are no instructions or enoght parts does anyone have a pic how to mount this so I can try to figure out what I need and make it?


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## darkzero

Programmergeek said:


> Anyhow I am trying to mount the DRO and I have the DRO some parts to mount to the bottom but no screws it looks like it should pount to a post mounted on the back of the lathe but there are no instructions or enoght parts does anyone have a pic how to mount this so I can try to figure out what I need and make it?


 
http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb...-To-a-PM1236&p=3670031&viewfull=1#post3670031

I did not get mine from Matt but the mounting kit is the same. Mine did not come with installation instructions either. I replaced most of the screws that were included with larger & stronger screws but that was expected.


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## BVH

wquiles said:


> I also finalized the simple wiring change to correct my initial mistake with the white/return wire (boy do I feel pretty stupid about now!). I verified that there are no 120V devices:
> - the pump is a 220V pump
> - the lamp is a 24V lamp
> - the DRO runs on 220V
> 
> I removed the white/return blade, and soldered both wires in the plug to the earth ground (green) blade. They are already shorted together at the electrical box as well:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I guess it is good to feel stupid but being safe, right? Thanks again for all of your help in making sure my lathe was wired properly and safely
> 
> 
> Will



I've read this and the previous page of this thread twice. If I'm following correctly, I can redirect an unused, dedicated 240V-30 Amp circuit cable in my attic down inside my garage wall and terminate it in a 3-prong, 240V receptacle. I am still not sure, but I think the lathe does not come with a cord? If so, my electrician can open the machines' box up, find the two hot wires (or are we looking for terminals) and the machine ground wire (or terminal, and on your machine, it is white, not green) and make a cord for attachment to these 3 points and stick a 3-prong plug on the other end. The ground from the machine frame/terminal goes thru the cord to the ground prong on the plug. The ground prong of the receptacle is where the bare/3'rd wire of the Romex conductor goes. Finally, we need to be sure that the 3'rd/bare wire from the existing conductor actually lands on the ground lug inside the breaker panel. Yes, I know the electrician should know all this but I also like to follow along and know it's being done right. In the pic, why did you have to solder two (a white and a bare?) wires together? Does the pic show your original connection where the neutral and ground wires were tied together?


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## metalbutcher

You'll want to check your local electrical code. What's shown in that picture would not be to code where I live. The only place where the bare wire and the neutral white wire are allowed to be connected is back at the main service panel.

Ed


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## gadget_lover

Like Metalbutcher says, it's not really allowed. The thinking is that the white is there to carry return current, and the ground is there to provide a path for current if something is broken/shorted. Without the ground the metal frame of the lathe can end up energized and YOU might be the path used by return current.

By tying the two together at the lathe, a broken neutral in the wiring for that circuit may result in the frame becoming hot as current flows through another tool to neutral, then back to the lathe, and finally back to the panel via the ground wire from there.

It's relatively safe if the circuit has only the one outlet, and if the lathe is the only thing on the circuit.

Daniel


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## wquiles

The photo above is out of context, so it appears it is not up to code, but it is. The problem is that initially I did have both the white and green wires connected back to the 220V outlet (which was NOT up to code, as clearly stated above), but the good folks here in the forum corrected that mistake. When I fixed the problem I simply tied the white wire within the yellow cable to be the same as the green/bare wire, so I have them shorted at both end of the yellow cable - they don't go to different places.

So from the 220V outlet, to the 220V power box in the lathe, there are only 3 wires: the two hots and the green (bare copper for neutral). There is NO white wire from the 220V outlet connected to the 220V outlet going to the control box - that pin in the plug is not there - I left it out, so there is no chance for a physical connection to the white wire in the 220V outlet. As I said, the photo is misleading since it clearly shows a white and copper wire shorted together going to the lathe's power box, but those two wires are only connected to ONE wire at the 220V outlet - the green/bare copper wire. The white/copper wires that you see in that photo are tied together at both ends of that yellow cable, and connect the 220V outlets' green/bare copper return to the GND in the lathe.

Will


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## BVH

wquiles said:


> The photo above is out of context, so it appears it is not up to code, but it is.
> 
> Will



I didn't mean to imply that the connection in the photo was how your machine was ultimately hooked up, but that I thought it represented your original connection, before all the changes were made. Sorry for the confusion. So it would appear that I can use a 3-prong plug & receptacle instead of a 4-prong.

Just to confirm, are there loose wires in the cabinet to connect to or am I looking for terminals?


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## wquiles

BVH said:


> Just to confirm, are there loose wires in the cabinet to connect to or am I looking for terminals?


I think that you will have to wait until the lathe arrives to know what to look for. In my case, the power box had already wired a white cable (wired inside the box already), but with no plug at the end of the table, as you can see in this picture, towards the top-right:






Will


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## BVH

Perfect, Will, thank you!


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## darkzero

BVH said:


> Just to confirm, are there loose wires in the cabinet to connect to or am I looking for terminals?


 


wquiles said:


> I think that you will have to wait until the lathe arrives to know what to look for. In my case, the power box had already wired a white cable (wired inside the box already), but with no plug at the end


 
Bob, it's very likely that your lathe will come with a cable with no plug as does the similar sized Grizzlys. Like Will's, mine also came with a cable pre-wired to the control panel with no plug. But my cable was black with red, black, & yellow/green wires. So yours will probably come with one but with whatever color variation they had in stock during manufacture.




BVH said:


> So it would appear that I can use a 3-prong plug & receptacle instead of a 4-prong.


 
Yes, I used the same style plug/socket as Will but in a 3 prong. 








Sure it may be overkill/oversize but it was the best looking one the local hardware stores had that I liked. I like that it's an angle plug & somewhat low profile compared to a plug that would stick horizontaly out. Angled plugs are standard in Europe (220v) to help prevent yanking the plug out of the wall socket by pulling on the cord intentionally/accidentially. But there are also plugs that twist to lock into the socket.

You may want to check for your area if you want to meet code. I remember someone saying something like any 220V appliances installed after a certain date had to be 4 prong to meet code but not sure if that was for a particular area, for household appliances only, or if I'm even remember correctly. There's no 110V devices on our lathe anyway. I'm not even sure if I meet local codes.


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## Maglin

Will,
My PM1236 should be here in a few weeks. I like how you set yours up. Now that you've had it for a while what do you think about using the stock hold down holes for your leveling feet? I'm going to make some hockey puck leveling feet and am debating on just using the stock places provided to bolt the machine down or to make leveling base out of 1.5" square tubing to place the feet farther out from the center line of the lathe.

How do you like the DRO? I also got the DRO and am pretty excited to not have to read dials and worry about the backlash so much anymore.

Jeremiah


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## Davo J

Hi,
I personally would recommend taking them out to at least the front and rear edges like I have done here.
http://www.woodworkforums.com/f65/lathe-mill-adjustable-feet-pictures-114836/

As is said in that post I just cut some scrap 100 x 100mm square tube down the centre making it into channel. It also raises the lathe which is much needed if you are around 6 ft tall.

My feet are fine where they are, but I wouldn't want to go any further in like using the factory holes in the ends. 

Dave


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## wquiles

Maglin said:


> Will,
> My PM1236 should be here in a few weeks. I like how you set yours up. Now that you've had it for a while what do you think about using the stock hold down holes for your leveling feet? I'm going to make some hockey puck leveling feet and am debating on just using the stock places provided to bolt the machine down or to make leveling base out of 1.5" square tubing to place the feet farther out from the center line of the lathe.
> 
> How do you like the DRO? I also got the DRO and am pretty excited to not have to read dials and worry about the backlash so much anymore.
> 
> Jeremiah



(Sorry for the late reply - lots of recent travel due to my day job.)

It is a great question, specially now that I had my 12x36 for a couple of years. If I were doing this again, I would NOT simply raise the lathe with the Mason feet and stop there. The cabinets on this size lathe (not just the PM, since they are pretty much identical) are too light and flimsy, so I don't feel the lathe is stable enough. It gets worst when the lathe is then raised several inches as I have done, and then not bolt to the ground. Plus, the bases (even with the Mason feet) are not wide enough (front to back), so the whole thing is not as firm/stiff as it needs to be.

What I would do different and/or what other improvement comes to mind to improve surface finish, lower vibration, etc.?

1) Bite the bullet and have a welded, square-box steel constructed, platform/wide base for each stand, but still use the Mason mounts to provide some compression/isolation.
2) Fill with concrete each of the bases for added weight/rigidity
3) Welded or bolted steel braces between each platform (the stock thin, sheet metal piece between the bases is a joke)
4) Bolt both bases to the ground - provide a true solid foundation.
5) Remove motor from the back of the lathe, and mount separately using a longer belt (actually belts, since there are two of them) - this will provide further isolation. When I do my VFD conversion using the larger/heavier 5HP Baldor motor that I have, this is exactly what I have in mind.

The problem is time - actually lack of time to do what I would like to do, so for now I (reluctantly) keep using the lathe "as is".

Regarding the DRO: I absolutely LOVE it. Can't/won't use the lathe without one. You of course still have the backlash (you would need ball screws line on a CNC machine to get rid of that - which for a manual lathe is not needed), but the accuracy and repeatability that the DRO provides is worth every penny!

Will


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## tino_ale

Just wondering, is there a safety feature on the lead screw and the power feeds to prevent damage to the lathe if you crash the tool into the workpiece ?

I remember seing a feature that was based on a coupling assembly featuring small spring loaded balls sitting in a V-groove that would snap out of their groove to limit the torque applied to the feed/lead screws.

Does the prevision matthew 12x36 have such a feature ?


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## wquiles

No. No provision built into these. You are pretty much on your own


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## tino_ale

That's really unfortunate, but could be fixed relatively easily I suppose.

http://www.usinages.com/tours-f23/tour-6236x1000-t11621-150.html

That's another chinese machine (a bit larger though) that has such provision. The feature is implemented on the power feed bar so it works on both axis power feeds. It's nothing more than a V-groove interface and springed steel balls really.

No provision on the lead screw though. Too bad, that means one can't power thread to a shoulder relying on this feature.


----------



## Clark

The 24 VAC GX4 bulb on the PM136 light burned out.

What are you guys using to replace it?
There seems to be options with LEDs, Halogen [like original], and Xenon.


----------



## wquiles

Clark said:


> The 24 VAC GX4 bulb on the PM136 light burned out.



Yup, very common problem. I have been in contact with various owners of the PM series lathes and it is unfortunately a very common occurrence. Being a EE I could not help wonder why, so after some simple measurements I found out that the transformer being used to generate the voltage for the bulb was actually not 24 volts, but closer to 28-29 volts, so basically the bulb is being overdriven a LOT, and on top of that the filament gets a lot of vibrations from the lathe itself => not a great combination to longevity.

Since putting another bulb is simply asking for the bulb to go out again when you need it the most, I simply re-used the housing, and made my own LED-based "lamp". In my case I have 4x warm 3 watt LED's in a flood configuration, which provide good light for the distance involved (lamp is usually a foot to two feet away from work surface). Check details on post #515 of this thread.


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## Clark

Thanks for the response.
Wait, you owed me one. This thread got me to BUY that lathe

The effort for me to put a ballast resistor in series with the LEDs and the transformer secondaries is small, but for me to design a buck converter is too many hours.
Here is one of my little videos


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## wquiles

Clark said:


> Thanks for the response.
> Wait, you owed me one. This thread got me to BUY that lathe



Glad I was able to "help" out :devil:


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## darkzero

Clark said:


> The 24 VAC GX4 bulb on the PM136 light burned out.
> 
> What are you guys using to replace it?
> There seems to be options with LEDs, Halogen [like original], and Xenon.





wquiles said:


> Yup, very common problem. I have been in contact with various owners of the PM series lathes and it is unfortunately a very common occurrence.




Interesting, I had no idea the stock bulb doesn't last very long. How many watts is the stock bulb?

I barely used the stock lamp & replaced it with a larger light. It's 50W & it's noticeably bright than stock (I think the stock one is 25W?). I originally had an even larger one similar to the ones that come on the 14-16" PMs & Grizzlys but it was too big. That's ok, I have a another plan for it. I also have a second same size lamp on a mag base that I used with my 8x14. 

I haven't blown a bulb yet & I tend to leave them on for hours, sometimes forgetting to turn them off when I go in the house or make a trip to the hardware store. I would have thought at least the mag base lamp that I used with my old lathe would have blown a bulb by now. I have 10 spare bulbs that I got for only a few bucks so I'm good for a while.

Naturally I also thought about going LED too but I actually prefer the warm color of the halogen for use with the lathe. Funny cause I prefer cool tint flashlights (not too cool) & I'm still not a fan of warm tinted LEDs. I have not installed any flourescent lighting in the garage yet & with these two lamps I'm happy with them.


(Photo taken with the P&S flash on)


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## wquiles

darkzero said:


> Interesting, I had no idea the stock bulb doesn't last very long. How many watts is the stock bulb?


yup, 25 watts




darkzero said:


> Naturally I also thought about going LED too but I actually prefer the warm color of the halogen for use with the lathe.


Me too - I also like the halogen - that is why I have a mix: I have a fixed 50 watt halogen (same as you, in the same spot as you!), and then have the 4x LED that moves with the carriage. I also have a smaller "spot" LED with a flexible neck that allows me to see deep inside tubes/hosts/etc, and that gives me even more light on the cutting edge when needed:
http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?248732-small-portable-shop-LED-light-...-turbo-modded&highlight=

And since the little spot light is also magnet mounted, I can use it anywhere in the shop where I need light for projects:












Will


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## precisionworks

That's a 12v halogen from Electrix, made in USA. Not quite as nice as the $200 LED light on the mill but very nice for $60 new on eBay (half of retail).


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## tino_ale

According to Dorian datasheet, a 12" swing over bed lathe should be equiped with a AXA holder... but I see you guys have got the BXA larger model.

Is there a specific reason to that ? Aren't your holders touching the the bottom of the tool post ?


----------



## wquiles

tino_ale said:


> According to Dorian datasheet, a 12" swing over bed lathe should be equiped with a AXA holder... but I see you guys have got the BXA larger model.
> 
> Is there a specific reason to that ? Aren't your holders touching the the bottom of the tool post ?



Theory is one thing. Reality is that the best size for the 12x lathe is the BXA size. The tool post is larger and stiffer, and same for the tool holders, which go up to 3/4" width. It is true that for a few tools you might have to touch up the bottom of a tool holder for them to go low enough to center properly, but so far that has not been necessary for standard lathe tools - I only had to do it for the 1" tools, which are really CXA size, so it is to be expected that some work is needed in those rare cases 

http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?250581-BXA-tool-holder-for-1-quot-shank-tools-.../page3

http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?278264-simpler-BXA-holder-for-3-4-quot-and-1-quot-shank-tools-...&p=3886010#post3886010


Bottom line: get the BXA. It is the right one for the 12x 

Will


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## tino_ale

Would some 3/4" tools require to mill the bottom of the holder or is it just the 1" size that is problematic ?

Could you please measure the height from the top of the compound to the chuck centerline ?


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## wquiles

tino_ale said:


> Would some 3/4" tools require to mill the bottom of the holder or is it just the 1" size that is problematic ?


Correct. So far every 3/4" tool has been OK, but the 1" tools are more likely to need the "adjustment".




tino_ale said:


> Could you please measure the height from the top of the compound to the chuck centerline ?


I will try over the next day or so to give you an approximate measurement on my PM1236.


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## wquiles

tino_ale said:


> Could you please measure the height from the top of the compound to the chuck centerline ?



I measured approximately 3.83" on my PM1236 lathe.


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## tino_ale

Thanks a lot. AXA vs. BXA is an important choice for those who don't have a mill to touch-up tool holders!
Not 100% sure yet but the PM 12x36 will most probably be my choice too.


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## BVH

I'm still a newbie at this but I can add that none of my Dorian or Chinese (Phase II) BXA holders bottom-out on my PM1236 compound, including the heavy duty, taller holders that Will cites.


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## precisionworks

tino_ale said:


> Thanks a lot. AXA vs. BXA is an important choice for those who don't have a mill to touch-up tool holders!
> Not 100% sure yet but the PM 12x36 will most probably be my choice too.


Without a mill a belt sander (portable or stationary) can work. No need to be precise or pretty, just grind it down til it fits. Your parts will never know the difference 

_Measure with a micrometer_; mark with chalk; _cut with an axe_.


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## darkzero

wquiles said:


> Theory is one thing. Reality is that the best size for the 12x lathe is the BXA size. The tool post is larger and stiffer, and same for the tool holders, which go up to 3/4" width. It is true that for a few tools you might have to touch up the bottom of a tool holder for them to go low enough to center properly, but so far that has not been necessary for standard lathe tools - I only had to do it for the 1" tools, which are really CXA size, so it is to be expected that some work is needed in those rare cases
> 
> Will



Am I missing something here? Standard BXA holders hold 5/8" max not 3/4" (shank height). Standard CXA is 3/4" & CA is 1". Or were you guys talking about something else?

The oversized Aloris BXA (1S) holders hold 3/4" max as well as the older Dorian BXA oversized holders. The newer Dorian BXA oversized holders hold 1" max. 





BVH said:


> I'm still a newbie at this but I can add that none of my Dorian or Chinese (Phase II) BXA holders bottom-out on my PM1236 compound, including the heavy duty, taller holders that Will cites.



Same here. Since I got the BXA I try to stay away from modifying tool shanks & tool holders & I haven't had to yet until now. I have an oversized Dorian BXA holder that accepts 1" tools which I'm using a 3/4" shank tool in it & it still does not bottom out. 

Generally, most of the time the cutting tip on a tool should be inline with the top of the tool's shank. So if you are milling down a 1" or 3/4" shank tool down to 5/8" to fit a standard BXA holder, you should not have to mill the bottom of the BXA holder for clearance to hit centerline of the spindle. But the slot in a BXA holder (China, not sure about Aloris, Dorian, Etc) is 5/8" x 1/2". So if you mill down a 1" shank you will have at least 1/2" of the shank hanging off the holder. Some 1" height shanks tools can be wider than 1".


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## wquiles

darkzero said:


> Am I missing something here? Standard BXA holders hold 5/8" max not 3/4" (shank height). Standard CXA is 3/4" & CA is 1". Or were you guys talking about something else?
> 
> The oversized Aloris BXA (1S) holders hold 3/4" max as well as the older Dorian BXA oversized holders. The newer Dorian BXA oversized holders hold 1" max.


Sorry about the not-so-clear note above Will. Standard is 5/8", but I have several of the Dorian/Aloris ones that hold 3/4" tools, like this Dorian, although I did not know BXA now can cover a 1" shank - impressive!


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## Clark

I replaced the burned out lamp bulb that came with the lathe with a JC GY6.35 24V 35W.
That is a $2 bulb that works well, but makes the lamp hot.
I wanted to try an LED array.
I ordered one from China.
AC DC 12V 24V Volt SMD LED Light Bulb Lamp G4 JC GX4 globe Low power consumption* ( *390369969021
It was about $4 plus $4 to ship from China.




The leads were not long enough or fat enough.
I wanted the .75" longer and .045" in diameter, not .025" in diameter.
Also the leads were not soldered on right. They were surface mounted then they should have used the plate through hole.
So I soldered on fat wires and put some Kapton tape between them.










I think the LED is only half as bright, but cool.


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## precisionworks

Seems like I purchase machine lighting on a regular basis :devil:

The best "low cost" magnet mount lamp so far is the Electrix 7330: http://www.electrixtask.com/model_7330.htm Retail is $130 USD but online for just over $50 USD: http://www.windycityliquidation.com/store/electrix-7330-black-50-watt-halogen-gooseneck-task-light/ 

They are currently out of stock. Planning to order 2 more when they get them in.


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## unterhausen

too bad none of the Chinese toolholder makers or vendors has figured out there is a market for 3/4" or 1" BXA toolholders


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## gadget_lover

The problem is not a lack of 3/4 or 1 inch BXA tool holders. They are available. The problem is that the center height of the lathe has to be higher than the sum of the tool hight plus the thickness of the bottom of the tool holder plus the height of the compound. 

The chart at http://www.industrydepot.com/DorianToolToolHolders.htm gives a nice comparison of the holder dimensions.

My 9 x20 lathe has only .930 inches between the center of the spindle and the top of the compound. No matter what I do, it will never use a 1 inch tool. It does quite well with 1/2 inch tools and a holder which has a bottom that is 3/8 to 4/10 inch thick. But I bought a BXA toolpost and the bottoms are .440 thick. I'm faced with lowering the compound or shaving a bit off the top of the compound or altering the holders. Of course, I could simply get an AXA toolpost like I should have, but I already bought the extra 8 or 9 holders. 

Edit: I actually did buy an AXA tool post. The cheap import tool holders are too thick under the tool, matching the thickness of the BXA so I jumped to the conclusion that I'd bought the bigger one.


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## darkzero

unterhausen said:


> too bad none of the Chinese toolholder makers or vendors has figured out there is a market for 3/4" or 1" BXA toolholders





gadget_lover said:


> The problem is not a lack of 3/4 or 1 inch BXA tool holders.



Yes they are available but I think what unterhausen meant is that there are currently no import oversized tool holders available.

Standard Aloris & Dorian BXA holders are $65-$75 ea. Aloris & Dorian oversized BXA holders are $90-$100 ea. The Aloris 1S BXA holders hold 3/4" shanks & the newer Dorian 1-100 holders hold 1" shanks (older Dorians hold 3/4"). Import China BXA holders are $15-$20 & if there were oversized holders available I bet retailers would charge $50-$60 for them up until if they became more popular & readily available but I doubt it.

The oversized holders don't pop up much on ebay & when they do (listed properly) they rarely go for cheap. But if you take the time to search you can more often find the oversized holders listed "improperly" & get lucky on them.


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## unterhausen

that's right, I really don't want to spend that much on a tool holder, and I'm not set up to mill them right now. I have two of the Chinese tool holders that I've machined out to fit 3/4" tools, but I'd like a couple more.

I have a 13" lathe, so I am not too aware of the problems of the 12". Given that I don't have much room to drop my tools below the centerline, I see how that's a concern for the 12" lathe owners here.


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## gadget_lover

Quick update from this afternoon's post. My cheap import AXA tool holders did not use the specs that they should have used. The 'A' dimension is .440 inches where it should be .375. Sigh. That puts a 1/2 inch tool just above the .930 inch maximum height on that I can use on my lathe.

I took the easy way out. I milled .040 off the plinth of the compound. The plinth is the raised part of the compound where the toolpost mounts. I checked the plinth with a file first, and confirmed it was not hardened. I mounted the compound in the vice on the mill, making sure that it was exactly level. I used my 2.5 inch 3 insert face mill to do the job, and it came out perfect. I confirmed the work on a surface plate. The last thing I need is a slanted plinth. 

Now I have .970 from the top of the plinth to the center height of the spindle. All my tool holders are now the right size. 

Daniel


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## precisionworks

Milling down an over sized shank is not a bad job. I did one recently, taking a .750" square shank to .625", using an APKT face mill (5 inserts). Made the first pass at .120" DOC with the finish pass at .005" DOC. Smoothed down the mill marks with a surface conditioning belt on the Burr King & ground a tiny 45° chamfer on all the sharp edges. Dunked the shank in Brownells Formula 44/40, wiped it dry & covered the surface in Vactra #2 way oil. Took 45 minutes from start to finish. 

Taking a 1.000" shank to .750" is similar. First pass at .240" & a clean up pass as .010". Speed set to 100 sfpm, feed on the #1 dial setting, AccuLube coolant.


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## Maglin

I recently did the same thing. Except I used a surface grinder to finish them up to kept the qualified faces square.


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## wquiles

As I mostly thread "the wrong way" - meaning straight in, not at 29.5deg, I usually simply lock the compound at 90deg, and forget about it. But then I am cutting bevels I have to use it, so I of course unlock it. But the metal in that hex bolt is soft/cheap, so it was too loose after a couple of years of use. So I replaced it with a hex cap screw and a steel ball bearing - now it is even tighter than before, and much, much easier to use/adjust 











Will


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## gkemper

Just found this post after all these years and I am considering buying one myself.

I have a question for you. Are you still happy with your lathe? Has anything broken or worn out?

Any regrets?

Thanks


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## tripletap3

gkemper said:


> Just found this post after all these years and I am considering buying one myself.
> 
> I have a question for you. Are you still happy with your lathe? Has anything broken or worn out?
> 
> Any regrets?
> 
> Thanks



I am currently waiting on a PM1236 myself. It should be in most anytime according to Matt at QMT. I had originally ordered a PM1127 to replace my Atlas 6" that was way too small. After months of research and waiting I called Matt and changed to the PM1236 only 2 weeks before the 1127 was due in. Been a long wait but I am glad I did.


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## darkzero

tripletap3 said:


> I am currently waiting on a PM1236 myself. It should be in most anytime according to Matt at QMT. I had originally ordered a PM1127 to replace my Atlas 6" that was way too small. After months of research and waiting I called Matt and changed to the PM1236 only 2 weeks before the 1127 was due in. Been a long wait but I am glad I did.



Good decision. That makes the third person here to change their mind from a PM1127 to a PM1236. I also had done the same thing & so did Bob (BVH). We're both happy we made the change so I know you will be too. Thanks goes to WillQ & this thread for helping me make my decision.





gkemper said:


> Just found this post after all these years and I am considering buying one myself.



I hope you guys both stick around for a while & please post when you guys get your machines. Pictures are required or else WillQ will scold you!


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## Atlascycle

How much garage space does this machine take up?

Jason


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## wquiles

Atlascycle said:


> How much garage space does this machine take up?
> 
> Jason



The Grizzly site for the equivalent 12x36 lathe has some good data on the size - basically 61" by 26"
http://www.grizzly.com/products/Gunsmith-s-Bench-Top-Lathe-with-Stand/G4003G

Will


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## Atlascycle

Thanks Will


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## sanddan52

precisionworks said:


> Seems like I purchase machine lighting on a regular basis :devil:
> 
> The best "low cost" magnet mount lamp so far is the Electrix 7330: http://www.electrixtask.com/model_7330.htm Retail is $130 USD but online for just over $50 USD: http://www.windycityliquidation.com/store/electrix-7330-black-50-watt-halogen-gooseneck-task-light/
> 
> They are currently out of stock. Planning to order 2 more when they get them in.



Thanks for the link, that's a great price. I checked at Amazon and it was $117. I have one on it's way at $49.95!


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## precisionworks

You are lucky - every time I go back they are sold out  One of my favorite lamps.


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## gkemper

tripletap3 said:


> I am currently waiting on a PM1236 myself. It should be in most anytime according to Matt at QMT. I had originally ordered a PM1127 to replace my Atlas 6" that was way too small. After months of research and waiting I called Matt and changed to the PM1236 only 2 weeks before the 1127 was due in. Been a long wait but I am glad I did.




I have also talked to Matt and am waiting for a PM1236 also. I am moving up from a 10" Atlas I've had for over 20 years!

Gary


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## gkemper

wquiles said:


> The Grizzly site for the equivalent 12x36 lathe has some good data on the size - basically 61" by 26"
> http://www.grizzly.com/products/Gunsmith-s-Bench-Top-Lathe-with-Stand/G4003G
> 
> Will



I see that you have yours on some tall leveling feet. Would you be able to measure from the bottom of the stand (excluding the feet) to the center of the crossfeed dial?
If it's too low for my taste I plan on bolting some square tubing to the base. Not only to raise the height but expand the footprint. I hear some concerns about it being 
"top heavy" and fear that you might tip it over. I figured that I would kill two birds with one stone. Increase the height and stability. 

I will add the leveling feet to the bottom of the square tubing. I just want to find out the height so that I know what size tubing to get. Thanks!

Gary


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## BVH

Here's a pic of one side of my 2x2 stand which increases the front-to-back footprint of my 1236

http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb...Lathe-PM1236&p=3799499&viewfull=1#post3799499

Completed stand shows up further down the page. 

37.5" from floor to center of Crossfeed wheel bolt. With stand attached, same bolt is 42.25" from floor. I'm 6'2" with an inseam of 34"


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## gkemper

BVH said:


> 37.5" from floor to center of Crossfeed wheel bolt. With stand attached, same bolt is 42.25" from floor. I'm 6'2" with an inseam of 34"



That's exactly what I was looking for. My current lathe is 42.5" from the floor to dial. I like them high like that. The 2" sq. will work great for me, thanks!


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## gkemper

Are these the actual numbers you used to cut the threads?

A Major of 1.64265? 
16 TPI?

Would you happen to have thread wire numbers so I could just cut them to size without removing the part to test the fit?

Thanks!

Gary


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## gadget_lover

LOL. I guess that I could round the major diameter on the major diameter calculation to only 3 decimal places.  Next time I get energetic I will update that.

Dan


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## wquiles

gkemper said:


> Are these the actual numbers you used to cut the threads?
> 
> A Major of 1.64265?
> 16 TPI?


I measured one, and I just printed the output of the program (very useful indeed!) for the other one.




gkemper said:


> Would you happen to have thread wire numbers so I could just cut them to size without removing the part to test the fit?


Unfortunately no.




gadget_lover said:


> LOL. I guess that I could round the major diameter on the major diameter calculation to only 3 decimal places.  Next time I get energetic I will update that.
> 
> Dan



Thanks Daniel


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## precisionworks

gkemper said:


> Would you happen to have thread wire numbers so I could just cut them to size without removing the part to test the fit?


Machinery's Handbook covers this as well as the instructions with the wire kit. 

Cutting a thread to fit a part is OK if you're sure that those two parts will forever stay together. Otherwise it's better to use wires, thread mic, plug gage or ring gage.


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## TexasLumens

wquiles said:


> As I mostly thread "the wrong way" - meaning straight in, not at 29.5deg, I usually simply lock the compound at 90deg, and forget about it. But then I am cutting bevels I have to use it, so I of course unlock it. But the metal in that hex bolt is soft/cheap, so it was too loose after a couple of years of use. So I replaced it with a hex cap screw and a steel ball bearing - now it is even tighter than before, and much, much easier to use/adjust
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Will



Hey Will, 
That "Wrong Way" threading you do turns out some nice results! When I seen that line in your post, I had to ask.... can you see a difference when you thread "Wrong" verses the 29.5 degree method??? I do a lot of threading to...and just changed to the 29 degree method a few months ago... I can't tell much if any difference. I'd just like to know if you can. Thanks. Dan.


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## cmacclel

TexasLumens said:


> Hey Will,
> That "Wrong Way" threading you do turns out some nice results! When I seen that line in your post, I had to ask.... can you see a difference when you thread "Wrong" verses the 29.5 degree method??? I do a lot of threading to...and just changed to the 29 degree method a few months ago... I can't tell much if any difference. I'd just like to know if you can. Thanks. Dan.



You would never notice a difference as it's the same  The 29.5 degree method is supposed to put's less strain on the tool. Even my CNC on the last "Spring Pass" it comes in staight.


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## TexasLumens

cmacclel said:


> You would never notice a difference as it's the same  The 29.5 degree method is supposed to put's less strain on the tool. Even my CNC on the last "Spring Pass" it comes in staight.



Well, thats sure what I have noticed. Just yesterday I cut an external 24 TPI... then an internal to match it and just to mess with it, I did one at 29 deg.... the other at 90. The were both just as clean and went together perfectly. ... Just wondering what other folks that tried both ways had found. Thanks for the reply. Merry Christmas!! Dan.


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## wquiles

cmacclel said:


> You would never notice a difference as it's the same  The 29.5 degree method is supposed to put's less strain on the tool. Even my CNC on the last "Spring Pass" it comes in staight.



+1




TexasLumens said:


> Hey Will,
> That "Wrong Way" threading you do turns out some nice results! When I seen that line in your post, I had to ask.... can you see a difference when you thread "Wrong" verses the 29.5 degree method??? I do a lot of threading to...and just changed to the 29 degree method a few months ago... I can't tell much if any difference. I'd just like to know if you can. Thanks. Dan.



If you read about it, this practice was developed in the early days of HSS tooling, there where no carbide inserts available yet, so as to extend service life for the cutting bit, the 29.5deg does in fact put less stress on the cutting edge. However, in my own experience, since I am not running a production shop there max speed and max number of parts is the goal, I have found that with good/sharp inserts, I don't have to do the 29.5deg at all (at least on Aluminum, and "soft" steel).

Will


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## precisionworks

wquiles said:


> ... I don't have to do the 29.5deg at all (at least on Aluminum, and "soft" steel).
> 
> Will


Aluminum & other non hardened materials are easily cut no matter how the thread tool is presented to the work. Alloy steels in the HT&Q condition (around 30 HRc) & titanium 6-4 as received (also around 30 HRc) thread more easily with modified flank infeed & tool life can be as much as 10X longer. 
















Any angle between 29.5° & 25° works well. The reason for not splitting 60° in half & setting the compound to 30° is to obtain tool clearance. 






Source: _ CNC Control Setup for Milling and Turning: Mastering CNC Control Systems_ by Peter Smid.


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## TexasLumens

Great info. Thanks. I had seen this before but it is always interesting to see other working methods. THANKS AGAIN! 
Dan


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## TexasLumens

wquiles said:


> +1
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If you read about it, this practice was developed in the early days of HSS tooling, there where no carbide inserts available yet, so as to extend service life for the cutting bit, the 29.5deg does in fact put less stress on the cutting edge. However, in my own experience, since I am not running a production shop there max speed and max number of parts is the goal, I have found that with good/sharp inserts, I don't have to do the 29.5deg at all (at least on Aluminum, and "soft" steel).
> 
> Will



Thanks for the reply Will. I like playing with this just to see if I can tell much difference. I figure as nice as your work is there can't be much difference at the end of the road. I do tons of threading and always feel I can learn something form others. Thanks Again! Merry Christmas! Dan.


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## wquiles

TexasLumens said:


> Great info. Thanks. I had seen this before but it is always interesting to see other working methods. THANKS AGAIN!
> Dan





TexasLumens said:


> Thanks for the reply Will. I like playing with this just to see if I can tell much difference. I figure as nice as your work is there can't be much difference at the end of the road. I do tons of threading and always feel I can learn something form others. Thanks Again! Merry Christmas! Dan.



And the thing is to not be afraid of experimenting a little - you will learn what works for you in your machine 

Will


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## DiverBob

I just spent the day reading this very interesting thread. I've been debating on getting either the PM1127LB or the PM1236. I think I've been convinced that the 1236 is the way to go. I've outgrown my Sherline lathe and need to get something beefier without breaking the bank! I use a Tormach 770 CNC mill and would like a lathe that can be converted someday to CNC but that isn't an over riding requirement.
it sounds like most of the posters are still happy with their decisions which is a good thing. I hope to be able to provide input myself someday!

Bob


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## wquiles

DiverBob said:


> I just spent the day reading this very interesting thread. I've been debating on getting either the PM1127LB or the PM1236. I think I've been convinced that the 1236 is the way to go. I've outgrown my Sherline lathe and need to get something beefier without breaking the bank! I use a Tormach 770 CNC mill and would like a lathe that can be converted someday to CNC but that isn't an over riding requirement.
> it sounds like most of the posters are still happy with their decisions which is a good thing. I hope to be able to provide input myself someday!
> 
> Bob



Definitely go for the heavier 12x36


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