# Boiling water in a mylar bag



## Poppy (May 2, 2013)

I have a question for the prepers.
I know that you can put boling water INTO a mylar bag, as evidenced by the freeze dried trail food.

Can you use a mylar bag to boil water in or over a fire?


----------



## AnAppleSnail (May 2, 2013)

It seems chancy to do it with fire. Can you experiment? Mylar isn't especially thermally-conductive, and is highly reflective. I wouldn't anticipate a lot of heat transfer from a fire into the water inside. Hot rocks dropped in should work, but may damage the bag.


----------



## wedlpine (May 2, 2013)

I don't know about mylar, but I remember boiling water in a paper cup in science class in High School.


----------



## Poppy (May 2, 2013)

Yes, I recall the same experiment, the problem was that the top of the cup burnt away to the water level. That experiment gave me the idea that a mylar bag might work.

I might have to experiment, but I am sure that others have already tried. Also I don't know how I would suspend it above the fire.

Hot rocks is a possibility, but like AnAppleSnail mentioned, it may damage the bag.


----------



## Poppy (May 2, 2013)

I did a little research.
It appears that it could work.

Ray Bradbury's book Farenheit 451 is 232 C and that is the FLASHPOINT for normal celulose based paper (so it seems).
Also acording to Grafix Plastics, the melting point of mylar and sheet plastics is 254 C 

Since water boils at 100 C if I keep the bag high enough out of the fire, with time the water should boil.


----------



## AnAppleSnail (May 2, 2013)

According to DuPont, you might be waiting a while. It's not called 'space blanket' for nothing. Most mylar available is aluminized polyethylene, with thermal conductivity of around 0.14 W/m*K. I don't really know how to calculate the rate at which the aluminized surface will pick up heat, but it wouldn't carry it into the water effectively, either. That said, it's surely better than non-boiled-water diarrhea.


----------



## Poppy (May 2, 2013)

I started a little experiment.

I put a quart of water in (of all things) a cheeto's bag.  
Using a couple of spring clips I hung it from my gas fired bar-b-que grill's cover, and propped the cover so that it held the bag about an inch above the heat dissapating tile/rocks.

It has been slowing heating, but about 30 minutes into it, I noted small bubbles inside the bag, and there was some steam. I inserted a meat thermometer and it registered 135F.
At 47 minutes, it registered just under 160F
At an hour it registered 169F.
Those temps are certainly hot enough to make it safe for consumption. 
It is my understanding that you don't need to BOIL water, but to pasturize it. That will kill all organisims that are harmful to humans.

I pulled this table off of the net, it probably will not present well.


TemperatureTimePasteurization Type63ºC (145ºF)_1)​_30 minutesVat Pasteurization72ºC (161ºF)_1)​_15 secondsHigh temperature short time Pasteurization (HTST)89ºC (191ºF)1.0 secondHigher-Heat Shorter Time (HHST)90ºC (194ºF)0.5 secondsHigher-Heat Shorter Time (HHST)


----------



## Poppy (May 2, 2013)

Darn!
Ten minutes later it was at 175 F and the bag had sprung a pin hole leak at the bottom seam. 

Ofcourse this was with a very thin bag. I wonder if the results would be better with one designed to hold boiling water to reconstitute a trail meal.


----------



## Sub_Umbra (May 3, 2013)

Poppy said:


> ...It has been slowing heating, but about 30 minutes into it, I noted small bubbles inside the bag, and there was some steam. I inserted a meat thermometer and it registered 135F.
> At 47 minutes, it registered just under 160F
> At an hour it registered 169F.
> Those temps are certainly hot enough to make it safe for consumption.
> It is my understanding that you don't need to BOIL water, but to pasturize it. That will kill all organisims that are harmful to humans...


Soy fat is used as a Pasteurization Indicator in the WAPI (*Wa*ter *P*asteurization *I*ndicator). The fat pellet melts at 69C (156.2F) so it would look like your water was Pasteurized. WAPIs may often be had for under $10 and they are great in emergencies as Pasteurization only requires a third of the energy that sterilization by boiling requires. WAPIs would also make good trade goods.

IIRC Pasteurization doesn't really kill all the bugs. It reduces the viable number of them so one is less likely to get sick. I think the biggest problem with it for use by the masses is that it is a more abstract process which gives no obvious indication upon completion.

On the mylar's reflectivity issue, I was wondering if one could heat water in a turkey basting bag...or a Crock pot liner bag.


----------



## sidecross (May 3, 2013)

A 'Mylar balloon' if hits a high voltage line will explode leaving people without power for at least 12 hours.
A child on our block did this and the explosion was significant.


----------



## gadget_lover (May 3, 2013)

I understand that you can use a paper cup because the boiling water conducts the heat away, keeping the paper below the burning point. Does the water that soaks into the cup make a difference? 

Daniel


----------



## Poppy (May 3, 2013)

Sub_Umbra said:


> Soy fat is used as a Pasteurization Indicator in the WAPI (*Wa*ter *P*asteurization *I*ndicator). The fat pellet melts at 69C (156.2F) so it would look like your water was Pasteurized. WAPIs may often be had for under $10 and they are great in emergencies as Pasteurization only requires a third of the energy that sterilization by boiling requires. WAPIs would also make good trade goods.
> 
> IIRC Pasteurization doesn't really kill all the bugs. It reduces the viable number of them so one is less likely to get sick. I think the biggest problem with it for use by the masses is that it is a more abstract process which gives no obvious indication upon completion.
> 
> On the mylar's reflectivity issue, I was wondering if one could heat water in a turkey basting bag...or a Crock pot liner bag.



The first time I heard of a WAPI, was when I read Cody Lundin's book, "_When All Hell Breaks Loose: Stuff You Need To Survive When Disaster Strikes._"

I don't know anything about either of the other two bags you mentioned, I'd be interested in knowing if you find anything out.

I'm putting together one of those Altoids Survival Tins. 
A water heating container that would fit is the challenge.
For now, I cut the bottom out of an aluminum foil pan. I cut it into a 8" x 6.5" piece and folded it into a 2"x 3.25" size so it will fit. Unfolded, with the corners tucked in, it should hold about 12 ounces. 

I thought that a mylar bag would compress small enough to fit in one, much better than a 1 quart zip lock bag.

I wonder how well a zip lock bag would work?
I wonder if the bag was cradled in a wet cloth, like a bandana, and carried "hobo" style. The wet bandana may evaporate water, but not get hotter than 212F. That temp would protect the plastic, but still allow for the transfer of heat to the water contained within. The bandana may need to be re-wetted a few times. Thoughts?


----------



## Sub_Umbra (May 3, 2013)

Poppy said:


> ...I thought that a mylar bag would compress small enough to fit in one, much better than a 1 quart zip lock bag.
> 
> I wonder how well a zip lock bag would work?
> I wonder if the bag was cradled in a wet cloth, like a bandana, and carried "hobo" style. The wet bandana may evaporate water, but not get hotter than 212F. That temp would protect the plastic, but still allow for the transfer of heat to the water contained within. The bandana may need to be re-wetted a few times. Thoughts?



I think the size constraints of an Altoid tin would tend to rule out nearly anything but some kind of iodine tablets for water and unfortunately their proximity would probably wreck half of everything else in the kit.

I have run across many viable, low tech, solar Pasteurization techniques that are cheap and will work over and over again -- but none that will fit into an Altoid tin.


----------



## Poppy (May 4, 2013)

I had two failed experiments with zip lock baggies. They may have been the store brand type, and not as good as a nationally advertized brand.

The first leaked at the seam within ten minutes. It may have started leaking right at the outset and I just missed it, because there was no sign of melting that would account for it to start to split, nor was the bag hot to touch.

The second bag, I hung with a pair of clothes-pin type clamps, to the edge of the cover, of my grill, that was propped open, but partially closed. The bag was about 3/4th full of water, and not supported in any way. An hour into the experiment, the water was only 140F and the back, top, of the bag melted and tore away so that all that was holding the pocket of water was the front half of the bag.

Problems with the experiment's design:
1. the heat was not evenly distributed. The bag of water was heated from below, but the front of the bag was hanging adjacent to the outside ambient air (about 65F) while the back of the bag was in the more enclosed space (like an oven). I don't know??? 300F ?? 
2. probably cheap plastic bags... better quality should be attempted.

Observation:
1. Just like in the paper cup experiment, (the cup caught on fire and burned down to the water-line), the plastic bag maintained it's integrity where it was in contact with the water it was holding, however, the plastic, not in contact with the water, if not closely monitored, can loose it's integrity.
2. water is heavy and the plastic bag is a little challenged in supporting the water's weight by the lip of the bag with clips. 

More experimentation is necessary.
Better quality bags
more even distribution of heat
external support of bags (damp/wet cloth?, sitting in the coals?, lying on a rock, next to the fire?)


----------



## Poppy (May 4, 2013)

Sub_Umbra said:


> I think the size constraints of an Altoid tin would tend to rule out nearly anything but some kind of iodine tablets for water and *unfortunately their proximity would probably wreck half of everything else in the kit*.
> 
> I have run across many viable, low tech, solar Pasteurization techniques that are cheap and will work over and over again -- but none that will fit into an Altoid tin.


I thought I would throw 4-8 of them in the kit, and just wrap them in plastic wrap. Is iodine particularly corrosive?

If so, I could put them into a plastic straw and melt the ends to seal them.


----------



## Sub_Umbra (May 4, 2013)

Poppy said:


> I thought I would throw 4-8 of them in the kit, and just wrap them in plastic wrap. Is iodine particularly corrosive?...


 Very much so. I had a med kit that I always took overseas with me. It had a Polar Pure water treatment bottle which has re-sublimated iodine as an active ingredient. Though I didn't notice it at first the vapors from the iodine changed the color of the bag, took the plating off of metal instruments and eventually completely ate through the steel cap of a factory sealed backup bottle of iodine pills, which then accellerated the corrosion of everything else...

While on this subject I'll mention another extremely corrosive chemical that preppers may come across sooner or later for treating water. Calcium Hypochlorite (Pool Shock) is very concentrated and is even harder to contain than iodine. Do much research on handling and storage *before* procurement.


----------



## Poppy (May 5, 2013)

Hmmm.... sealed inside a plastic straw, it is! 
Thanks for that note.

I had read that iodine tablets in it's original container are good/effective for 4-5 years, but only 1 year once the container is opened. I bought a package of Coleman purification tablets that had two bottles, one of iodine, and one of a neutralizer, ascorbic acid (takes the iodine taste away). I didn't notice it until after I opened the package, that the rim of the cap of the iodine tablet bottle, was all rusted. The cap was loose.


----------



## Poppy (May 5, 2013)

The pictures of the WAPIs that I found online look like they would be too big to put in an altoid tin.
I'll probably get a little mercury thermometer to put in there, but I discovered a site that sells "camerons temperature poppers" they can be had in different temperatures for example 145F for fish, or 170F for turkey.

Here is an explanation of how they work, with a diagram, 
http://home.howstuffworks.com/pop-up-timer1.htm

and a little known fact is that they can be re-set and re-used. :thumbsup:

The next time I get a chicken with one in it, I will have to experiment


----------



## Poppy (May 7, 2013)

I haven't gotten a turkey or chicken popup yet, but I'll make sure that we have an oven roaster chicken for dinner some day soon.

This morning, I put a piece of birthday candle in hot water and it started melting between 150F and 160F. I know that different types of wax will melt at different temps, but with the concept of bringing things that have multiple uses, a small candle can be put into the tin.

It was a two colored candle. Green with white stripes. The white stripes were made with a lower melting point wax than the green core. The white started melting at about 145-150F, and the green at about 160F. I found that interesting, and useful.

I'm not making a SHTF survival, just a (I got lost in the woods, and need to survive for a couple of days until I am found) 2-3 day scenario.


----------



## alpg88 (May 7, 2013)

Poppy said:


> I have a question for the prepers.
> I know that you can put boling water INTO a mylar bag, as evidenced by the freeze dried trail food.
> 
> Can you use a mylar bag to boil water in or over a fire?



open flame is more than 1000c, even if mylar can take 300c it still will melt if touched by flames.


----------



## Sub_Umbra (May 7, 2013)

Poppy said:


> I haven't gotten a turkey or chicken popup yet, but I'll make sure that we have an oven roaster chicken for dinner some day soon.
> 
> This morning, I put a piece of birthday candle in hot water and it started melting between 150F and 160F. I know that different types of wax will melt at different temps, but with the concept of bringing things that have multiple uses, a small candle can be put into the tin.
> 
> It was a two colored candle. Green with white stripes. The white stripes were made with a lower melting point wax than the green core. The white started melting at about 145-150F, and the green at about 160F. I found that interesting, and useful...


Interesting.

With either the chicken popup indicator, the candle or the WAPI, for that matter, it's important to hold the indicating material _as close to the bottom of the vessel as possible,_ as that will be coolest and thus the most likely to not be pasteurized. The WAPI has a sliding washer to act as a weight in that regard.


----------



## Poppy (May 7, 2013)

Thanks for taking an interest.

I believe that, I've seen the one that you are referring to, and perhaps in use, it would seem that the weight is to hold it down, but perhaps it is just to hold the tube upright so that it is more obvious that the wax has melted.?

There is another design, one that looks very similar, but without the cable, and washer.
Clipped from another site...


> The Multi-Fuel WAPI has a high-temperature molded polypropylene case which serves as a carrying case for storage and as a float to enable the WAPI to be submerged in the water. In use, the transparent tube is removed from the case and snapped into the hole provided in the bottom, with the wax end up. The case is placed in a pot, pan or jar which is filled with water. When the wax has dropped to the bottom of the tube, the water is safe to drink.


----------



## Poppy (May 7, 2013)

Earlier today I was at the supermarket with my wife who ran into one friend after another and I walked all the isles up and down twice. I came across a package of 11 ounces of ground coffee, vacuum packed in a mylar bag. The mylar is probably 3x as thick as the one that I tested. I bought it. Then looking at it, and thinking about it, I may have had an Epiphany.

During testing, even the thin mylar bag did not distort wherever it was in contact with water, nor did the part of it that was not in contact with water, but was higher and further away from the flame and heat. If you look at the bottom of a sealed mylar bag, such as one for a bag of potato chips, there is a 3/8th inch seam that projects from the bottom of the bag. This was closest to the heat source, and was not in contact with the water (to wick away the excessive heat). It melted away, until the seam was too thin to be able to support the weight, and it started to split just a little bit. I'm thinking that there has to be a way to keep the seams out of the flame, that if I had a mylar ball full of water, that I would really have something. 

So here's my thought... there are three seams to a bag of chips. I'm thinking that I'll try laying a bag face down such that the top seam is to the right, the bottom of the bag is to the left, and the back of the bag (with its seam) will be on top, facing up. I'll slit an access hole in the back of the bag, which is now the top, and I'll use wire or cordage with a couple of clips to make a handle connecting the two side seams, the left and right. This way the front of the bag, without any seams, and always in contact with the water will be what is exposed to the hotest heat. Also, possibly a larger surface area will be exposed to the heat so that the time will be shortened.

I don't know if I explained it well enough so that it is clear with out any pictures.


----------



## Poppy (May 10, 2013)

Yesterday, I bought a Perdue Oven Stuffer Roaster, with the popup timer. When the bird came out of the oven I very happily found that when I pulled the timer, and pushed the button back in and let it cool, that the depressed button remained in place. YES... it looks like they are re-usable.

This morning I heated some water in a pot with a thermometer, and the popup released at 162 degrees F. YES!!!
However, *it would not reset* 

Needless to say, I am dissappointed that this can not be relied upon to be a part of my kit.


----------



## AnAppleSnail (May 10, 2013)

Poppy said:


> I'm thinking that there has to be a way to keep the seams out of the flame, that if I had a mylar ball full of water, that I would really have something.



In the airbag industry, we turn airbags inside out when we want to conceal seams. The outer shell of a driver airbags (Round ones in steering wheel) are nearly always 'inside out' to protect you from the seam. If the water is sterilized, the water down in that seam should be, too. Unfortunately, most 'mylar' has layers:

metallized face
polyethylene or other plastic

Chip bags have a printed ink layer as well. The ink may be food-safe. Find out before drinking.


----------



## Poppy (May 10, 2013)

AnAppleSnail,
Turning the bag inside out was a great suggestion. 

So I turned a bag inside out, filled it 1/3rd full with about a quart of water, put a small piece of candle in it and set it out as previously described on the grill. I left it for about an hour but didn't watch it closely, like I would in a real survival situation. When I got back the candle was melted, the water was at 170, and the bag was leaking  BUT, it wasn't leaking at the seam, but with a dozen VERY little pin holes. The water wasn't streaming out, but rather was dripping. It is quite possible that the pin holes didn't appear *until after* the water reached a safe pasturization temp.


----------



## AnAppleSnail (May 10, 2013)

Pinholing is a common failure mode in thin films. I actually have to watch out for it to happen with an industrial lamination plant here. TAPPI has a PDF about pinholing in Polyethylene. Since most mylar is aluminized biaxially-oriented (stretched length- and width-wide on the extrusion machine) polyethylene, I'm not too surprised you encountered it.

The short version is, moisture trapped between layers, or sometimes even the microbubbles that 'sit' during the beginning of boiling, can punch through the film. You and I will be _very_ curious to see if this pinholing will happen during each sterilization process -- Or only during neglected ones.

There are other mechanisms of pinholing, but they all come down to something pushing through the film, or something forcing the film to try contracting while it's stretched.

Edit: What to do? I think that if you change the boiling point of the water, you might have some luck. Would a pinch of salt hurt a person in such a water emergency? Would it make enough difference? I don't know.


----------



## Poppy (May 10, 2013)

I was concerned that the reflective mylar on the outside would reflect too much radiant heat, and I guess I would have to experiment to see how much of an effect it has.

Considering that heating a mylar bag is like trying to heat a column of water, I'm thinking that it may be better to use a larger more shallow surface. I bought a five point star shaped mylar balloon. I'm thinking that a mylar sheet hung like an upside down parachute may work well. This way there are no seams, the reflecting material can be on the inside, and perhaps overall, the mylar may not need to be as close to the heat, or may be in the heat for a shorter period of time. 

I have no idea how this may affect pin-holing.


----------



## Poppy (May 14, 2013)

Maybe I should change the title of this thread to "Boiling Water OUTSIDE a Mylar Bag"
Today I had some time to play and I used the star shaped mylar balloon as a water container.

I laid the balloon flat and crumpled/twisted each of the five or six points of the star so that I could twist some wire around each point. I then connected all five or six pieces of wire about 10 inches high, so that it formed an upside down parachute. I filled it with a quart of water, and attached it to a clamp on my grill cover so that the bottom of the "seamless" bag hung a few inches above the flame.

I added a piece of wax and waited. At about 1 hour and ten minutes, the water reached 160 F and the wax melted. There was no evidence of pinholing of the mylar.

I should experiment over an open flame, and try a similar experiment with a potato chip bag. The balloon, or chip bag can be used as a water container, and marked at 16, 32, and 24 OZ levels so that one can use Iodine tablets, but can still resort to boiling/pasturizing when the tablets are gone.

Regarding pinholing... I recall reading that mylar is self healing. I wonder if pinholes became present, and then the water was drained, if the bag was heated closer to the melting point, would it self-seal? Ah... more experimenting.


----------



## Hooked on Fenix (May 15, 2013)

I don't really see much of a point using a thin mylar bag to boil water in. Most likely, you'll only get one use out of it, so it will have limited use for survival. Many mylar bags have plastic or polyethelene coatings that could make the water toxic if ingested. I think your best bet of having a durable bag to use would be a cleaned out freeze dried meal bag or a Mountain House Mountain Oven bag filled with water and sealed up with some hot rocks inside. If you don't want some ash in your water, take the Mountain Oven bag and fill it partially with water and hot rocks. Take a cleaned out freeze dried meal bag full of water and put it in the Mountain Oven bag and seal both bags up. These double insulated bags can handle heat better and work more efficiently than simple mylar.


----------



## alpg88 (May 15, 2013)

me too, don't see much point. what happened to good ol' kettle?? or any other metal can, (just not aluminium soda can, they have plastic coating inside).


----------



## Poppy (May 15, 2013)

alpg88 said:


> me too, don't see much point. what happened to good ol' kettle?? or any other metal can, (just not aluminium soda can, they have plastic coating inside).



LOL... a kettle won't fit into my pocket 

I'm trying to put together a small EDC survival tin for when I take a stroll in the woods. Just in case I have to spend the night, and maybe a day or two until the SAR team finds me. The three most important things will be fire, shelter, and potable water. By time I put a mylar blanket into a tin, there won't be much room for anything else. In fact the mesh metal flint will probably have to be glued to the outside of the tin. There'll be room for some iodine tablets, and vasaline cotton balls, some wire, some dental floss, and maybe a utility knife blade. There probably won't be room for a separate mylar bag, but cutting out a 12"x12" piece of the blanket can probably be used as a container (for iodizing water, or last resort as a heating container). There is an advantage to heating vs iodine. It is my understanding that iodine is not particularly effective against cryptosporidium cysts.

Hopefully, anytime I throw this little tin into my pocket, I'll be carrying my 24 oz stainless steel uninsulated water bottle. 

If I have a planned overnight hike, I bring my JetBoil stove.


----------



## Hooked on Fenix (May 16, 2013)

I suggest using the stainless steel water bottle for all your water boiling. Get some Chlorine Dioxide tablets (Micropur, Aquamira) and ditch the iodine. Iodine is only good for treating things like Giardia. It doens't work for cryptosporidiam cysts or viruses.

I admire that you are trying to put together a lightweight survival kit for emergencies. Understand that you won't be able to fit much in an altoids tin. First generation emergency blankets are nearly useless for survival. They tear instantly and make you colder if used as a blanket as the metal surface facing out absorbs cold. They work best under clothes as a vapor barrier or as a heat reflector for a fire (either behind the fire or facing the fire used as a lean to). The newer emergency blankets don't rip nearly as easily, but won't work well for boiling water in. I suggest you ditch the emergency blanket in your tin emergency kit and put in some cordage. You can make a decent shelter in an emergency with natural materials, but you need something to tie it all together. I personally like Kelty Striptease Guyline cord. It's expensive (it is Spectra cord), but it weighs 1 oz. for 50 feet and doesn't stretch like nylon. Instead of the emergency blanket, bring a poncho. It won't fit in your little kit, but it is a piece of clothing you should have anyway for going out in the woods. Make sure to get a real one with tie in points along the perimeter so you can hang it up as a shelter. With the cord and a poncho you have an easy to build shelter for emergencies. With the right poncho, you might even have an emergency bivy sack. In my opinion, what should be in the little kit is a magnesium block firestarter (Firesteel.com or Doan at least), a Firesteel.com superscraper (so you don't wear out a knife), 50 feet of Kelty Striptease Guyline cord, 4 Chlorine Dioxide tablets, a small knife (SAK classic or Leatherman Micra), your favorite coin cell l.e.d. flashlight, a few bandaids,and if there is any room left, a pack of GU energy gel for food.


----------



## Hooked on Fenix (May 16, 2013)

Just tried to cram all those items I mentioned into an Altoids tin myself and couldn't do it. Here's what I managed to squeeze into the 1.76 oz Altoids tin: Firesteel.com Magslab firesteel (magnesium block), Leatherman Micra, 10 feet of Kelty Striptease Guyline cord, L.R.I. Photon II flashlight, 3 bandaids, 4 Micropur tablets. You guys must be using larger tins, because I couldn't even get an emergency blanket in the tin by itself.


----------



## Poppy (May 16, 2013)

Hooked on Fenix said:


> Just tried to cram all those items I mentioned into an Altoids tin myself and couldn't do it. Here's what I managed to squeeze into the 1.76 oz Altoids tin: Firesteel.com Magslab firesteel (magnesium block), Leatherman Micra, 10 feet of Kelty Striptease Guyline cord, L.R.I. Photon II flashlight, 3 bandaids, 4 Micropur tablets. You guys must be using larger tins, because I couldn't even get an emergency blanket in the tin by itself.



This is what I got into my first one. Missing though is the mylar blanket, so I am going to make a second one with the blanket in it.
I do carry a poncho when I am carrying my jetboil (that's when I am really prepared  ) The poncho, despite being high quality, won't really fit into my pocket. Well If I was wearing cargo pants, it would.

I am using the same size altoids can. 

*Altoids Tin Survival*

Cutting edge (Utility knife Blade)

Water purification

Fire - Flashlight - Compass

Cordage... (Wire and Dental floss)


Missing a whistle, and mylar/space
blanket 


*Fire:*

Cut down Magnesium bar with flint bar
and hacksaw blade striker

Small Bic lighter

Three sealed plastic straws of
vaselined cotton balls mixed with Mg dust.


*Water:*
coffee filter (to be used as a prefilter) (SHTF dust mask)
folded aluminum 16-24oz. container (made from aluminum (approximately 7"x9") cut from throw-away aluminum roasting pan)
folded 2 qt mylar bag marked at 16 and 24 oz.
2 spring clips to hold bag over fire
22 ga wire wrapped around lighter
12 iodine tablets in 3 sealed straws

instructions for pasteurize temp and iodine use

candle to melt at 145F and 160F as a pasturization thermometer

gumball size plumber's putty to repair alum container (I unfolded one that I made and found that the corner developed a hole in it)

*Additional items*

Utility knife blade taped to cover

12 lumin 4 button cell Browning bore-scope flashlight 8 hours runtime

compass

six feet minted dental floss.
six feet 22 guage wire wrapped around lighter 
<HR> _______________________________________________________________________</hr>

The standard magnesium bar with mesh metal flint glued to the side takes up WAY too much room. I cut off about 80% of it and put some of the shavings into a straw with the vaseline coated cotton balls. I left some of the Magnesium to give the mesh metal support, it would be a bad situation if it snapped on me. That though would give you a lot more room in your's.


----------



## Poppy (May 16, 2013)

In my first tin, the straws were cut length wise.
In my second tin, they will have to be cut width wise.
I think I will be able to get into it the following:

Mylar blanket (Coghlans 52.5" x 82.5" No. 8235) (I don't know if it is first or second generation... how would I know?)
I will try to tape a utility blade to the top inside of the can, but I really had to squeez the container closed already, and I taped it shut. Since I always carry a pocket knife, that blade is really redundant anyway.
I should be able to get 4 x 2" straws into the tin. 2 wrapped with dental floss, and two wrapped with wire. I'll fill the straws with tinder (vaseline cotton mixed with mg shavings) and one or two of them with water purification tablets (iodine or chlorine) I squeeze the ends of the straws with a hemostat, and then melt the ends shut with a flame.
I'll cut down a magnesium bar or maybe remove the flint that's on the side of one, and glue it to the lip of the cover of the lid, then duct-tape the contraption together.
I'll include the flint striker (hacksaw blade) either inside the container or duck-taped to the outside.

I read Cody Lundin's book (the Dual Survival guy) "98.6 degrees... How To Keep Your *** Alive" and he prefered tincture of iodine to chlorine, I'd have to re-read it for the specifics. Maybe he was referring to liquid chlorine, household bleach. I vaguely recall that it forms chloramines.

I wish I could fit a whistle inside there or taped to the outside, but even the flat one's taped to the outside would start to make it bulky. Maybe I'll have to get one of those 2 inch pencil sized ones and carry it on my key chain. Ironically it would be larger than my flashlight.


----------



## Hooked on Fenix (May 16, 2013)

The difference between a first and second generation mylar blanket: 
1st generation: Aluminum foil covered in plastic film. Tears easily. Doesn't hold in heat unless under insulation.
2nd generation: Synthetic fabric sprayed with aluminum coating. May only be reflective on one side. Will hold in heat and doesn't tear as easily. Will probably melt into a toxic mess if you try to boil water in it.

Won't the proximity of the compass to the batteries in the flashlight drain the batteries? As for the whistle, if you take a look at newer backpacks and headlights, some have whistles built into the buckles or strap hardware. They even have buckles with whistles and firesteels built in (in a single unit).


----------



## Poppy (May 16, 2013)

Hooked on Fenix said:


> The difference between a first and second generation mylar blanket:
> 1st generation: Aluminum foil covered in plastic film. Tears easily. Doesn't hold in heat unless under insulation.
> 2nd generation: Synthetic fabric sprayed with aluminum coating. May only be reflective on one side. Will hold in heat and doesn't tear as easily. Will probably melt into a toxic mess if you try to boil water in it.
> 
> Won't the proximity of the compass to the batteries in the flashlight drain the batteries? As for the whistle, if you take a look at newer backpacks and headlights, some have whistles built into the buckles or strap hardware. They even have buckles with whistles and firesteels built in (in a single unit).


 
Regarding hte 2nd gen, do you mean like the "SOL Survive Outdoors Longer Thermal Bivy" I think that it is a mylarized Tyvec material.

Regarding the compass and batteries... I have no clue. I have never heard of that before. If you could enlighten me, that would be great. I noted that with opening and closing the cover that the compass needle moved. I wonder if it will loose its magnetisim in time due to its close proximity to the metal tin?


----------

