# Possible new lathe. What do ya think?



## Mirage_Man (Jun 7, 2008)

*New lathe on it's way. What do ya think?*

I've been saving for a new lathe and this is the one I have my eye on. It's identical in every way to a Clausing or Harrison M300 Tool room lathe. In fact it's made in the same factory. I've searched and searched for an American lathe in good condition but it's nearly impossible in my area. Anyway, what do you think? The pictures show a combination of a Clausing and the one I'm thinking of getting a Precision Matthews. Again they are identical except for the paint and the compound will have a t-slot rather than the post that the other does. The pictures show a metric machine mine would be an English model.


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## Anglepoise (Jun 7, 2008)

Spindle through hole diameter.......????


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## Mirage_Man (Jun 7, 2008)

Anglepoise said:


> Spindle through hole diameter.......????



It's 1+9/16"

Here are the specs...


*Machine Standard Features and Equipment: *

·ISO 9002 Certified Manufacture
·High Maximum 2500 RPM Spindle Speed
·Large Spindle Bore 1 9/16” 
·Heavy Duty Camlock Spindle D1-4
·Heavy Duty Precision Guide Ways Hardened and Ground
·Heavy Duty Main Motor, 2.2 KW, True 3HP 
·12 Spindle Speeds, Low 40 RPM High 2500 RPM – Best range in its class
·Machine Cuts Inch Threads and Metric Threads 
·Threading and Feed Rate Change is Done Without Changing Gears, and minimal change is required for threading (only very coarse to very fine threads need a change) 
·Spindle is Balanced, Hardened and Precision Ground
·Spindle is Supported by High Precision Tapered Roller Spindle Bearings 
·All Gears and Shafts are Hardened and Precision Ground 
·Guideways Induction Hardened and Precision Ground
·Automatic Lubrication System in Headstock and Feed Box 
·Machine Made with Inch Leadscrews (main screw 4 TPI)
·2 Year Warranty on Parts on machine

*[FONT=&quot]Specifications: [/FONT]*


*Model #PM-1340T*

Max. Swing Over Bed *13”* 
Max. Length of Work Piece *40”* 
Max. Swing Over Cross Slide *8-1/4” *
Max. Swing in Gap *19” *
Width of Bed *8-1/2” *
Spindle Bore *1-9/16 , D1-4* 
Taper of Spindle Center *M.T.# 5 *
Spindle Speeds * 40-2500 rpm / 12 steps *
Feeds (Inches per revolution) * 0.001-0.080 IPR, 36 kinds* 
Inch Threads *2-56 TPI *
Metric Threads *0.2-14 mm *
Max. Travel of Top Slide * 3-1/2” * 
Max. Travel of Cross Slide *7-1/2” *
Diameter of Tailstock Quill *1 5/8”* 
Max. Travel of Tailstock Quill *4-5/16” * 
Taper of Tailstock Quill Center *M.T. # 3 *

Main Motor *3 HP, 220V, 3 phase *
Coolant Pump Motor *1/8 HP, 220V, 3 phase *
Net Weight, approx. (w/o accessories) *1745 LBS * 
Overall Dimensions, LxWxH *81” x 38” x 55” *






*Standard Equipment (free) for precision Lathe Model # PM-1325T & 1340T: *

·*Wedge Type Quick Change Tool Post Set with 5 Holders*
·6” 3-Jaw Chuck with Set Reversible Jaws 
·8” 4-Jaw Chuck with Set Reversible Jaws
·12” Face Plate 
·Steady Rest 
·Follow Rest 
·Removable Gap
·Foot Brake 
·Halogen Work Light
·Coolant System
·Full Length Splash Guard 
·(2) Dead Centers
·(1) Reducing Sleeve 
·Thread Chasing Dial


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## Anglepoise (Jun 7, 2008)

Specs look very nice.


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## SafetyBob (Jun 7, 2008)

Brian, ask the company you are buying it from if they can give you a couple of customer's names and phone numbers so you can ask "real" machine people how they like this exact lathe; if they think it would be good for you, and just the overall impression of the lathe. 

From what I can see, looks pretty good. Yes, it would be VERY nice to have a new lathe too. Been thinking about it myself, but that would mean I might have to get really serious about making something for money to hopefully offset the cost (something like fun and work put together). You know, like you are starting to do now!!

Critical thinking also leads me to bore size. I like my D1-6 size, haven't been limited by that as I recall. I know tool room like will generally be small so if you can live with that, then OK. I just measured my D sized flashlights, just barely enough room to stick a D [email protected] into it.....

Lastly, I am most concerned with electrical. Find out who makes those motors. That would be one of my first questions for a machine shop user with this lathe....any problems with those motors? I think my GE 5 HP 3 Phase motor I have in my lathe was old when I got the lathe....call me stupid, but I haven't even looked at the stupid thing in......13 years. And it replaced the cheap China motor that was in it from 1980 probably around '85. 

I also like the plastic chip guard/splash shield versus that metal one on the first picture. 

Overall, looks like a very nice machine that should serve you well. You will love that coolant pump, the nice shield to keep the chips and junk from slinging against your wall like now, and NOT having to compensate for using a heavily worn machine (like we are doing now). 

Gotta ask, you getting this around the Tampa area or have you found something that the rest of us need to be alerted to?

Bob E.


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## Mirage_Man (Jun 7, 2008)

Bob, I will ask to get some names and numbers. That's a good idea.

Yeah I am doing what I have been specifically to fund the new lathe purchase. 

While it would be nice to have a larger bore size than 1+9/16" I would have to jump up considerably in price. Most of what I do is with the smaller diameter stuff so it shouldn't be an issue.

The motor? That's a good question. The machine has a two yr. warranty so hopefully any issues would show up in that time. If I have to replace it in 5 yrs. so be it. 

This is something that will be shipped to me. The only local guys sell junk and or really expensive stuff. Not to mention having to pay tax on top of shipping!


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## Mirage_Man (Jun 8, 2008)

Here's a cool video I found centered around a Harrison M300 which is the same machine. If you're using IE right click and save it to your desktop so you can watch it a little larger.


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## gadget_lover (Jun 8, 2008)

Once again, I'm envious.

Let us know how you like it.

Daniel


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## Mirage_Man (Jun 8, 2008)

gadget_lover said:


> Once again, I'm envious.
> 
> Let us know how you like it.
> 
> Daniel



Well I haven't jumped yet. I still have quite a few more pennies to save before I can afford something like this. Also if a cream puff piece of American iron presents itself between now and then that's affordable I may go that route. We'll see.


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## wquiles (Jun 8, 2008)

Mirage_Man said:


> Here's a cool video I found centered around a Harrison M300 which is the same machine. If you're using IE right click and save it to your desktop so you can watch it a little larger.



GREAT video. Not only about your possible new lathe (really nice by the way! - how much is it?), but also as a starting video for "anyone" about to use a lathe. Everything except using a file on a moving chuck at the end, is spot-on safe and proper 

Will


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## TranquillityBase (Jun 8, 2008)

Good lathe me want too


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## wquiles (Jun 8, 2008)

Here is an old one from the 80's or sale:
http://www.emachinetool.com/used/catalog/single.cfm?DestinationCategory=Engine%20Lathe&ProductID=13249

Will


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## Mirage_Man (Jun 8, 2008)

wquiles said:


> Here is an old one from the 80's or sale:
> http://www.emachinetool.com/used/catalog/single.cfm?DestinationCategory=Engine Lathe&ProductID=13249
> 
> Will



Dude, a brand new one ain't much more than that. That's one of the reasons I'm leaning towards a new machine. The used machinery dealers are outta their freak'in minds in the way they price even worn out hunks of steam'in doo..


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## wquiles (Jun 8, 2008)

Gotcha - new one it is. That is a very nice machine for sure 

Will


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## PEU (Jun 8, 2008)

Mirage_Man said:


> Here's a cool video I found centered around a Harrison M300 which is the same machine. If you're using IE right click and save it to your desktop so you can watch it a little larger.



Very good video even if you arent after that lathe 

Last week I visited a machining expo here in Buenos Aires, this same lathe w/different brand was around $5000+taxes (10.5%)

Good luck!


Pablo


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## Mirage_Man (Jun 8, 2008)

PEU said:


> Very good video even if you arent after that lathe
> 
> Last week I visited a machining expo here in Buenos Aires, this same lathe w/different brand was around $5000+taxes (10.5%)
> 
> ...



What brand was that? Is that dollars?


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## PEU (Jun 8, 2008)

Mirage_Man said:


> What brand was that? Is that dollars?



This one (WM330) was u$d4500+tax if I recall correctly, if you want the exact price I can make a few calls  http://weiss-europe.nl/product/25-lathe.html 

it looks the same as the model you posted. There were plenty of similar models


Pablo


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## Mirage_Man (Jun 8, 2008)

PEU said:


> This one (WM330) was u$d4500+tax if I recall correctly, if you want the exact price I can make a few calls  http://weiss-europe.nl/product/25-lathe.html
> 
> it looks the same as the model you posted. There were plenty of similar models
> 
> ...



Pablo,

I looked at the link you sent but as far as I can tell those aren't really the same animal. The specs are completely different. TBH those look like the Chinese imports that everyone like Enco, MSC etc.. are selling.


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## PEU (Jun 8, 2008)

Ah, I tought that the lathe you were showing was chinese  Different beasts?


Pablo


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## Mirage_Man (Jun 8, 2008)

PEU said:


> Ah, I tought that the lathe you were showing was chinese  Different beasts?
> 
> 
> Pablo



It is made in China but it's the same as a Clausing Colchester or Harrison not your typical Chinese garbage. Clausing moved their production there a few years ago. Just because it's made in China does not necessarily mean it's automatically junk. The Clausing and Harrison list for around $10K. 

Here are links to the Clausing/Harrisson website showing each variation of the same machine. 

The Clausing and the Harrison.


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## PEU (Jun 8, 2008)

Never saw one in person, that maybe mislead me into believing it was the same as other chinese lathes 

At the expo I saw this one: http://www.smsa.ch/pl-102tm-cnc-e.html and I fell in love U$D75000   


Pablo


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## tvodrd (Jun 8, 2008)

I just lost ~30 minutes of hunting and pecking! Why I don't bother contributing much anymore! 

Larry


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## Mirage_Man (Jun 8, 2008)

tvodrd said:


> I just lost ~30 minutes of hunting and pecking! Why I don't bother contributing much anymore!
> 
> Larry



What a bummer! I hate when that happens. I sure would like to have read what you had to say.


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## Torque1st (Jun 9, 2008)

Saving a long post with a simple copy and paste periodically into notepad or similar text editor is simple insurance. Just doing a "select-all & copy" occasionally to hold it in your system clipboard can help. Service interruptions are a very common problem on bulletin board systems.

I saved money by being patient and looking for over 3 years before the right lathe came up locally for the right price. A local machine saved $$$ on shipping when I could get it myself.


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## PEU (Jun 9, 2008)

Torque1st said:


> Saving a long post with a simple copy and paste periodically into notepad or similar text editor is simple insurance. Just doing a "select-all & copy" occasionally to hold it in your system clipboard can help. Service interruptions are a very common problem on bulletin board systems.



Larry  
Try a browser such as opera (I use it) that when a post fail, you simply go back and try again, the text is still there 


Pablo


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## precisionworks (Jun 9, 2008)

One other thing to consider ... a 12" machine does not give a great deal more capacity than your 10" lathe. A 16" machine (although you'll rarely need to swing a part that large) provides a larger headstock bore plus greater machine mass. 16" is also "small" enough that these lathes are not beaten to death in a production shop - it's almost like a larger model toolroom machine. Used ones come up from time to time in decent condition.


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## wquiles (Jun 9, 2008)

precisionworks said:


> One other thing to consider ... a 12" machine does not give a great deal more capacity than your 10" lathe. A 16" machine (although you'll rarely need to swing a part that large) provides a larger headstock bore plus greater machine mass. 16" is also "small" enough that these lathes are not beaten to death in a production shop - it's almost like a larger model toolroom machine. Used ones come up from time to time in decent condition.



What would be specific examples of such lathes (so that I can always keep an eye out for them)?

Will


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## Mirage_Man (Jun 9, 2008)

precisionworks said:


> One other thing to consider ... a 12" machine does not give a great deal more capacity than your 10" lathe. A 16" machine (although you'll rarely need to swing a part that large) provides a larger headstock bore plus greater machine mass. 16" is also "small" enough that these lathes are not beaten to death in a production shop - it's almost like a larger model toolroom machine. Used ones come up from time to time in decent condition.



I understand what you're saying but a 16" machine is HUGE. I have considered a larger lathe but I have a one car garage that my shop is in. I share the household storage and lawn equipment in that space. A 16" machine would just take up too much space especially when I still have to have room for a mill when the time comes.  I'm not saying it's out of the question but it would have to have a relatively small foot print.

Oh BTW not that it's that much of a difference but the one I'm looking at is a 13" not 12". The main thing I'm after with this new lathe is accuracy, repeatability and more power. I have never really had an issue with my SB being too small except for power.



wquiles said:


> What would be specific examples of such lathes (so that I can always keep an eye out for them)?
> 
> Will



I too am curious what would qualify in this category. I did see a Clausing 15x50 on ebay that looked nice but again looked really big.


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## precisionworks (Jun 9, 2008)

I understand your concern about shop space ... even my 30' x 70' shop has not much unused space. 

There are some short-bed 16" machines, usually with a 36" or 40" bed. They are deeper than smaller swing machines, mostly because the bed is wider, but they take up only a little more space than smaller lathes. Lion (eastern European) makes a 16-M (16x40, 2" spindle bore). Lodge & Shipley, Monarch, Cincinnati, etc., all made 16x36 toolroom machines - the 36" beds are not popular with lots of shops as they usually want a 16x60 or 16x72 - so the short beds often go cheap. 48" is another common length in those brands.



> I have never really had an issue with my SB being too small except for power.


I'm currently looking at an older 10EE. If it comes through, I plan to pull the motor & the electronic controls & replace with a 5HP motor with frequency drive. That conversion is not too expensive, and should give adequate power at slower speeds.


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## SafetyBob (Jun 9, 2008)

Brian I have the solution for your problem. Get that lathe, don't worry about bigger size now, what you have picked out is perfect, then after you are making millions of dollars making those neat Ti flashlights you can build a bigger garage or build a nice out building (your choice of course) and buy one big huge new lathe again and I will come down there and pick that one up!!

Bob E.


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## Mirage_Man (Jun 9, 2008)

SafetyBob said:


> Brian I have the solution for your problem. Get that lathe, don't worry about bigger size now, what you have picked out is perfect, then after you are making millions of dollars making those neat Ti flashlights you can build a bigger garage or build a nice out building (your choice of course) and buy one big huge new lathe again and I will come down there and pick that one up!!
> 
> Bob E.



That was great Bob.


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## SafetyBob (Jun 9, 2008)

Seriously now, I am sure you did alot of digging to find that lathe. Yes virtually everything we can afford will be made in China. Yes their manufacturing process has improved vastly from the "old" days. And everyone basically uses the same place in China to make the same equipment but with different colored paint and maybe a small variation here and there. 

The only reason I have used metal working equipment is because I was fortunate to have inside sources so I didn't get the regular price for used equipment that is so terribly overpriced now. I was ready to buy a new Birmingham mill a few years ago when I was pointed in the right direction my a very successful man who is self made and now sells direct to the big companies. He found my Bridgeport for next to nothing and yes it needed work, work I could do. 

Since you can swing it and can justify it, get that new lathe, and like I said, if it isn't big enough then look at the next step up in a year or two. That may require you to do what my nieghbor and I are looking at right now.... renting warehouse space to put all our combined equipment into. 

Oh, get a DRO on it. 

Bob E.


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## Mirage_Man (Jun 10, 2008)

SafetyBob said:


> Seriously now, I am sure you did alot of digging to find that lathe. Yes virtually everything we can afford will be made in China. Yes their manufacturing process has improved vastly from the "old" days. And everyone basically uses the same place in China to make the same equipment but with different colored paint and maybe a small variation here and there.
> 
> The only reason I have used metal working equipment is because I was fortunate to have inside sources so I didn't get the regular price for used equipment that is so terribly overpriced now. I was ready to buy a new Birmingham mill a few years ago when I was pointed in the right direction my a very successful man who is self made and now sells direct to the big companies. He found my Bridgeport for next to nothing and yes it needed work, work I could do.
> 
> ...



I have been looking for quite some time. As I said before most of the used stuff I have seen is either beat to death or waaaaaay overpriced. For the work I do I think this lathe will be fine. It's certainly a far cry from the Heavy Ten. 

What I'd really like to get is a nice Doosan CNC lathe but I don't have $50K laying around for one.  

Oh and yes a Newall DRO is definitely on my wish list.


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## SafetyBob (Jun 10, 2008)

I hear that 50K not laying around!!!

I was also talking to the neighbor about your situation just a few hours ago. We both agree that unless you know a machinist that is selling you his lightly used machine (which occurs once in a lifetime..maybe) it is worth the money to purchase a new one so you don't have to fight an old machine or rework whatever is wrong. 

And most importantly, I am ready for a new machine. I have learned enough of the basics and am ready to really start some serious machine work. 

Both the neighbor and I agree we (and you) need a CNC lathe *AND* CNC mill too!! Come on winning lotto ticket!!!!!

Bob E.


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## Mirage_Man (Jun 25, 2008)

Well I did it. I ordered the lathe yesterday. It should be here if all goes as planned some time in mid August . Now I just have to start figuring out what to do about an RPC.


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## wquiles (Jun 25, 2008)

Mirage_Man said:


> Well I did it. I ordered the lathe yesterday. It should be here if all goes as planned some time in mid August . Now I just have to start figuring out what to do about an RPC.



Outstanding !!!


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## jhanko (Jun 25, 2008)

Mirage_Man said:


> Well I did it. I ordered the lathe yesterday. It should be here if all goes as planned some time in mid August .



Congratulations on the purchase! Just curious, why such a long delivery time? I went crazy waiting 1 week for my new machine to arrive. I couldn't imagine waiting over a month.

Jeff


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## Mirage_Man (Jun 25, 2008)

JHanko said:


> Congratulations on the purchase! Just curious, why such a long delivery time? I went crazy waiting 1 week for my new machine to arrive. I couldn't imagine waiting over a month.
> 
> Jeff



It has to be built and then shipped to the U.S. Then once it arrives at the dealer it has to be inspected before it's shipped to me. I don't think of it as that long of a time considering how long I've been saving for it. 6 weeks is just a blink of an eye.


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## slugger (Jul 28, 2008)

BTT


Did you get this sucker yet???


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## Mirage_Man (Jul 28, 2008)

slugger said:


> BTT
> 
> 
> Did you get this sucker yet???



Nope, not yet. It's supposed to be delivered to the dealer in mid August. Then the DRO has to be installed before it makes the journey to FLA. 

I have a few things that need attending to before I'll be ready for it too. I have to either upgrade my service or add a sub-panel because I have no more room in my main box. Then I need to order and install the RPC.


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## precisionworks (Jul 28, 2008)

> Then I need to order and install the RPC.



MM,

Are you planning to run a number of other machines on 3-phase? If you plan to run only one lathe & one mill, installing a VFD on each machine makes sense. My shop currently has three VFDs, and more will be added as funds allow. The soft start alone is worth the price of admission. Plus you can fine tune the spindle speed in any of the lathes gear ranges.


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## Mirage_Man (Jul 28, 2008)

precisionworks said:


> MM,
> 
> Are you planning to run a number of other machines on 3-phase? If you plan to run only one lathe & one mill, installing a VFD on each machine makes sense. My shop currently has three VFDs, and more will be added as funds allow. The soft start alone is worth the price of admission. Plus you can fine tune the spindle speed in any of the lathes gear ranges.



A VFD is not something I've really looked into. Does it allow the full use of available motor power? What do they generally cost?


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## modamag (Jul 28, 2008)

MM, how come you need an RPC when that lathe is rated @ 3HP single phase?


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## Mirage_Man (Jul 28, 2008)

modamag said:


> MM, how come you need an RPC when that lathe is rated @ 3HP single phase?



The coolant pump is single phase but the main motor is three phase.


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## slugger (Jul 28, 2008)

It's my understanding that you can use all the ponies unless you go way slow. The fancier new lathes come with VFDs installed! The new Acer uses a VFD to maintain the constant surface speed. As you screw in the compound the rpms come up to compensate. If you have ever watched a CNC machine face off a plate it is neat to watch it spool up to 2500 rpm as it nears center! VFDs are the way to go UNLESS you get to the big horse power- they are scary expensive the big ones are!


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## Anglepoise (Jul 30, 2008)

slugger said:


> As you screw in the compound the rpms come up to compensate. If you have ever watched a CNC machine face off a plate it is neat to watch it spool up to 2500 rpm as it nears center!!



Now that's a mod I would like........


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## gadget_lover (Jul 30, 2008)

I like the implications of that. A simple dial that says "titanium, brass, HRS, SS, alum, frappe" and that then sets the speed based on the cutter's position.

Of course, there would need to be 5 more dials to tweak it jussssst right..

Daniel


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## Torque1st (Jul 30, 2008)

slugger said:


> VFDs are the way to go UNLESS you get to the big horse power- they are scary expensive the big ones are!


VFD's are great for running up the speed during a facing operation. Provided you have the machine's basic gearing set appropriately to allow the VFD to increase the spindle speed with it's range.

One of the problems with my used 20/24" lathe is the 7.5HP main drive motor. A 15HP RPC is much cheaper than a "scary expensive" 7.5HP VFD. 

I am upgrading my house single phase service from 100A to 200A in order to accommodate the lathe, mill, welder, and other tools I have. Right now I have to run around and make sure the oven, extra lights, Kiln, etc are shut off in order to use some of my tools. The 15HP RPC requires a minimum 100A supply circuit itself and will consume 8-10A just idling with no load. The electrical consumption and RPC & circuit installation costs make the use of a VFD look better but still scary!


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## slugger (Jul 30, 2008)

A 15HP RPC is much cheaper than a "scary expensive" 7.5HP VFD. 


I warned you!


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## Torque1st (Jul 30, 2008)

slugger said:


> A 15HP RPC is much cheaper than a "scary expensive" 7.5HP VFD.
> 
> 
> I warned you!


I sometimes wish I could find a reasonably priced single phase input VFD, they have many advantages. If I had to buy a new or ready-made RPC the cost of the RPC and associated electrical circuits would match or exceed the cost of a VFD. I have the sources for used surplus parts and the ability to make my own RPC which is the deciding factor in may case. The Ebay kits and surplus motors are way overpriced.

The other factor in the cost equation for me is that I can maintain and service my RPC. If something goes wrong with a VFD I am screwed.


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## modamag (Jul 30, 2008)

Keep in mind guys that MM is getting a manual lathe, NOT a CNC running SurfCAM.

There is a guy in the bay are that have been trying to get rid of his 7.5 HP Varidrive motor for $500. No controller.


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## Mirage_Man (Jul 30, 2008)

modamag said:


> Keep in mind guys that MM is getting a manual lathe, NOT a CNC running SurfCAM.
> 
> There is a guy in the bay are that have been trying to get rid of his 7.5 HP Varidrive motor for $500. No controller.



This is true Jonathon. To be honest I'm having a hard time deciding on which route to go. On one hand an RPC doesn't get much simpler. On the other the ability to dial in an exact rpm would be nice. 

It seems that a VFD would be more difficult to wire and require more time to make sure gearing and freq were in the appropriate ranges during operation. With the RPC I just turn a knob or to to change gears. 

Oh but the VFD is literally half the cost of the RPC.

:thinking::thinking::thinking::thinking::thinking:


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## Torque1st (Jul 30, 2008)

Mirage_Man said:


> This is true Jonathon. To be honest I'm having a hard time deciding on which route to go. On one hand an RPC doesn't get much simpler. On the other the ability to dial in an exact rpm would be nice.
> 
> It seems that a VFD would be more difficult to wire and require more time to make sure gearing and freq were in the appropriate ranges during operation. With the RPC I just turn a knob or to to change gears.
> 
> ...


VFD's are not difficult to wire, really simpler than a RPC. The advantages of the VFD are numerous but the ability to use a specific speed is a minor one. VFD's can soft start, vary speed while facing, easily go from forward to reverse for threading operations, have lower current consumption, higher efficiency, etc.

A 7.5HP VFD runs about $8-900 and a 15HP RPC will cost me around $150-200 +time. The VFD requires a 60A circuit which MAY let me slide on a service upgrade. The RPC requires a $1500 electrical service upgrade and a 100A circuit. The electrical service upgrade would be beneficial in the long run. The RPC would allow me to run more 3 phase tools tho... :thinking:


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## Mirage_Man (Jul 30, 2008)

Torque1st said:


> VFD's are not difficult to wire, really simpler than a RPC.



How so? I may be wrong but doesn't wiring a VFD require much more inside the lathe's electrical system? I mean an RPC you just wire the output to the input on the lathe and you're done, right? It was my understanding that you can't have a break between a VFD and the motor so how in the world do you utilize any of the lathe's features like foot brake and F/N/R lever?? What about a jog button (my lathe doesn't have one but if it did...).



Torque1st said:


> The advantages of the VFD are numerous but the ability to use a specific speed is a minor one. VFD's can soft start, vary speed while facing, *easily go from forward to reverse* for threading operations, have lower current consumption, higher efficiency, etc.



Can you use the forward/Neutral/Reverse lever on the lathe itself or do you have to use the VFD controls? If you have to use the VFD to control it than that would would seem to be a real PITA.



Torque1st said:


> A 7.5HP VFD runs about $8-900 and a 15HP RPC will cost me around $150-200 +time. The VFD requires a 60A circuit which MAY let me slide on a service upgrade. The RPC requires a $1500 electrical service upgrade and a 100A circuit. The electrical service upgrade would be beneficial in the long run. The RPC would allow me to run more 3 phase tools tho... :thinking:



Why such a big circuit? When I spoke with American Rotary today they said for the 3HP VFD or 10HP RPC I only need a 20A circuit. Does that 7.5 motor really need that much more than the 3HP my lathe will have?

BTW the 10HP RPC runs $748 where as the 3HP VFD is $380.


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## Torque1st (Jul 31, 2008)

The circuit requirements came directly from a reputable manufacturer of RPC's, Phase-a-Matic. Some of the homebrew type converter dealers skimp on some of the electrical ratings.

For a geared head metal lathe the RPC must be sized at least 2X the size of the main motor. Remember power and current is consumed by the idler motor in operating it and generating the third phase. The power represented in that third phase comes from the single phase supply and a RPC is not the world's most efficient conversion device.

230VAC Single Phase supply circuits for RPC's
RPC HP / Fused Disconnect / Supply Circuit
3HP / 15A / 20A
7.5HP / 40A / 40A <--misprint possible, I would use a 50A
10HP / 45A / 60A <--WAY more than 20A!!!
15HP / 60A / 100A

Sometimes a smaller or LARGER supply circuit is possible depending on the distance from the main panel and the size of the service.

My understanding is that you can use the R/N/F lever on the machine or use the VFD depending one where you split the controls. Many VFD's allow you to "talk" to them with external contacts. Depending on the lathe it can be complicated or simple. Having designed hundreds of machine control circuits makes it simple for me with any machine. The RPC is simple in that it just connects to the machine input. For your store bought RPC it would be the simplest option.

The VFD can be mounted with the appropriate air filters right over the headstock. The air temp requirements for some VFDs get to be problematic in a shop.


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## slugger (Jul 31, 2008)

A 7.5hp motor should only draw about 5500 watts under FULL load. Starting load on a lathe is maybe 1.4x the constant load. 5500 watts can be handled with a 25 amp breaker. My compressor circuit is 30 amp and this is for a 7.5 hp compressor. They are FAR harder to start than a lathe. Just because you have a 10 Hp RPC doesn't mean that it will take all 7500 watts to run it under a normal load with your lathe. It won't take much to start it either.

I am just finishing up my house/shop. I initially was going to have 400 amp service and the electrical company had a cow because the pull conduit was only 3" to my transformer. I went from heat strips to a gas furnas and downsized to 200 amp service. I got the power company to pull the biggest wires they could through there so that I have feed equivalent to a 350 amp service and only the breaker is limited what can feed. I ran TWO subpanels- one for all my 120 circuits and one for all my 3-phase stuff should I decide to use one RPC and run stuff off this panel. Running 220 circuits runs you out of panel space in a hurry! A typical house in my area has the following 220 circuits: range, 2-A/C condensers, dryer and water heaters if not gas. I have heat strips in my basement air handler and that is a 20 amp 220 circuit as well. Each one takes up 2 slots and doesn't leave much room for the lighting and such. My 3 water heaters are gas as is my main furnas and cooktop. Had I used electric for these i would have needed the 400 amp service.

I planned for plenty of space for my machines and future purchases! I just wish I could get 3-phase at the transformer!


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## modamag (Jul 31, 2008)

My 7.5HP keeps on tripping my 40A circuit. I had to upgrade to 50A breaker.

Typical RPC efficiency is about 80%. Unless you plan for a 3P mill (eg Bridgeport) or compressor, for your lathe I would get the 5HP.

I would allocated $200-300 & 8 hours if you plan to build your own.
I ballanced mine within 1%, when I did it 2 yrs ago.


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## Torque1st (Jul 31, 2008)

The calculations run a little different for an RPC circuit. There are forums where VFDs and RPCs are discussed by experts. The big power requirements on a lathe come from the instant stop/reverse operations required for threading etc, not just from starting the motor.


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## Torque1st (Jul 31, 2008)

modamag said:


> My 7.5HP keeps on tripping my 40A circuit. I had to upgrade to 50A breaker.



I would expect that which is why I figured the tables had a misprint. I have designed enough motor starter panels to know the difference.



modamag said:


> I would allocated $200-300 & 8 hours if you plan to build your own.
> I ballanced mine within 1%, when I did it 2 yrs ago.


I have several outstanding local sources of supply that will allow me to "browse" their inventory with a meter.  Selecting visually unappealing components can reduce the price they ask considerably.


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## plasmaman (Jul 31, 2008)

I'm installing a new (used) 600kg lathe, and pondering over drive too.
The lathe has a single phase 2hp motor, and a control panel comprising a series of relay driven controls for apron switch fwd/reverse, em stop, jog, foot em stop and chuck guard safety.
I want to change to a 2hp 3phase motor to have benefits of VFD drive and use a digital inverter which I have (Mitsubishi FRS 520).
Question - how to retain existing functionality of lathe controls?
I thought in ignorance I could use the existing motor feed, as the power into the inverter. That is apparently NOT a good plan!
So idea is to put clean single phase mains input to inverter, 3 phase output to motor, and then use the existing motor wiring to run 24v relays to the inverter to control start/stop/jog, and a separate remotely mounted pot to control speed and direction of rotation.
Any thoughts on this??


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## Torque1st (Jul 31, 2008)

Plasmaman,

Going from a single phase to 3-phase motor and VFD is a different problem.

The E-Stop is simple, It kills all power to the machine which can be done with conventional wiring and a simple contactor with start/stop buttons. Use the basic wiring shown here:
http://literature.rockwellautomation.com/idc/groups/literature/documents/wd/800-wd001_-en-p.pdf
With an extra E-Stop button in line. E-Stop buttons are mechanical latching devices that once pushed must be manually reset. Your machine may already have most of that circuit already and can be easily reconfigured.

Interfacing forward/rev/Jog functions will depend on your VFD inputs, programming, and the machine wiring. Your VFD manual should have diagrams for it's input requirements and programming. Some may be available online.

A local UK machine tool Engineer should be able to work with the details for your machine. Check out the 
CNC-Zone Forum for some local help. Wiring and controls is a real eyeball & hands-on operation.


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## Mirage_Man (Aug 9, 2008)

Well here's a picture of the control box for the new lathe. This is apparently from an older iteration of the machine and will likely be slightly different on the actual machine I get. Can anyone tell me what the heck we're looking at? I know what the transformer is but the rest of the stuff I'm unfamiliar with. 







Click on the thumbnail below for a larger image.


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## Torque1st (Aug 10, 2008)

A well done modern Euro style control circuit. Besides the transformer the devices with dials on the front are motor starters with a circuit breaker next to them. The lower rail has contactors. The upper rail is a terminal strip with a power disconnect. I can't see well but the switch in the upper right may be a function switch.


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## Atlascycle (Aug 11, 2008)

Mirage_Man said:


> Well here's a picture of the control box for the new lathe. This is apparently from an older iteration of the machine and will likely be slightly different on the actual machine I get. Can anyone tell me what the heck we're looking at? I know what the transformer is but the rest of the stuff I'm unfamiliar with.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Torque 1st is correct, the devices labeled CB1,2,3 are manual motor starters with built in overload protection, the devices below them are contractors that the machine control circuit will use to start and stop the three phase motors. CB4 is the control voltage circuit breaker.

Jason


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## precisionworks (Aug 12, 2008)

If the mechanical part is as nicely done as the electrical controls, you have a winner:twothumbs

The three "cubes" along the top row are Square D/Telemecanique GV2ME Manual Motor Starter & Protector - very nice units costing (list) $150 each. When you read the catalog section, notice that each specific model of the GV2 has an adjustable, thermal setting range - those numbers correspond to the small dial to the left of the On/Off switches.

The contactors (below the starters) are the Square D/Telemecanique D-Line Contactor.

Info on both at: http://ecatalog.squared.com/catalog/173/html/sections/16/17316001.html#


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## Mirage_Man (Aug 14, 2008)

precisionworks said:


> If the mechanical part is as nicely done as the electrical controls, you have a winner:twothumbs



Hmmm, seems a shame to totally bypass all those expensive electronics by using a VFD then doesn't it?


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## precisionworks (Aug 14, 2008)

The electronics will still be used as they were designed, although the freq drive does add some duplication of the overload function. The GV2ME uses a thermal (heater) element to sense overload, where the drive senses electronically. The D-Line contactor does mechanically what the drive does with electronic switching.

You may have all the speed control you need or want with the selections that are built into your lathe, as your machine is well equipped - if so, you may want to build or buy a RPC for phase conversion. The strength of the VFD is where a machine has fewer or more limited speed ranges, a soft-start feature is desired, fine speed control is desired, etc.

I wouldn't ever again want to run my belt sander, Burr-King, or wire brush without a VFD ... but the lathe & mill are still without a freq drive. They'll probably get one at some point, but two drives = one McGizmo in cost:thumbsup:


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## Atlascycle (Aug 14, 2008)

Depending on the VFD that you get you may cause a problem having a contactor after the output of the vfd, You will want to check into that.


Jason


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## Mirage_Man (Aug 14, 2008)

Atlascycle said:


> Depending on the VFD that you get you may cause a problem having a contactor after the output of the vfd, You will want to check into that.
> 
> 
> Jason



Every VFD I have looked into requires a direct connection to the motor with nothing in between. So like I said earlier those high end components will be bypassed altogether as far as I can tell.



precisionworks said:


> You may have all the speed control you need or want with the selections that are built into your lathe, as your machine is well equipped



Well the machine has 12 speeds from 40 to 2500 RPM. Pretty good range if you ask me. I really don't know if I need any more than that? I suppose there might be occasion I could tweak to a certain rpm between two of the speeds but I don't know.


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## precisionworks (Aug 15, 2008)

> 12 speeds from 40 to 2500 RPM


If that were my lathe, I'd hesitate to redesign the entire control circuit around a VFD ... and I'm pretty fond of freq drives

The VFD will add only fine speed control within any of the 12 ranges. Although it will maintain 100% of motor torque at any motor rpm, the motor HP will decrease as frequency decreases (normally not a problem, although I usually double or triple the motor size when changing to a VFD).

This really sounds like a case where a RPC would serve you better than the drive. The RPC also can run a number of machines, where the VFD can only control one.


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## X_Marine (Aug 31, 2008)

Mirage_Man said:


> Here's a cool video I found centered around a Harrison M300 which is the same machine. If you're using IE right click and save it to your desktop so you can watch it a little larger.


Nice video for Old Noobs like me.. Thanks MM. 
Now where are the rest of them.. lol

Thanks
X/BillyD..


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## Mirage_Man (Aug 31, 2008)

X_Marine said:


> Nice video for Old Noobs like me.. Thanks MM.
> Now where are the rest of them.. lol
> 
> Thanks
> X/BillyD..



HERE you go.


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## X_Marine (Aug 31, 2008)

Ask and you shall receive.. lol

Dang, I was just kidding but if that's more of the same I'm in debt.. :thumbsup:

Thanks
X/BillyD..


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## Nitroz (Aug 31, 2008)

I take it you still have not received your lathe yet?


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## Mirage_Man (Sep 1, 2008)

Nitroz said:


> I take it you still have not received your lathe yet?



:sigh: not yet. It was supposed to arrive in the states a couple weeks ago but it did not. The new due date is for the second week of September.


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## SafetyBob (Sep 1, 2008)

Brian, you haven't got hurt to bad from all the storms have you? Looked like a couple of them have come really, really close to Tampa.

I assume you have cleared a spot out for the arrival of the new baby?

Bob E.


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## Mirage_Man (Sep 1, 2008)

SafetyBob said:


> Brian, you haven't got hurt to bad from all the storms have you? Looked like a couple of them have come really, really close to Tampa.
> 
> I assume you have cleared a spot out for the arrival of the new baby?
> 
> Bob E.



Not much of anything storm-wise here in the Tampa area. We've been very lucky so far. I hope it stays that way.

While I haven't exactly cleared a spot for the new lathe I have cleaned up quite a bit. I also had the electrical service upgraded for the house to 200A. We put in a Square-D QO panel and breakers.


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## Torque1st (Sep 2, 2008)

Congratulations on the new panel and 2,000 posts!


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