# NEW Rayzorbeam/lite 50W HID ~2.5 Hrs runtime



## Rhino90 (May 20, 2005)

Hi All! Newbie to the forums.

Small and light. Li-Ion rechargeable. 2.5 Hrs runtime. Interested? Any comments?


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## xpitxbullx (May 20, 2005)

Interesting. What's the cost of this light?

Jeff


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## Rhino90 (May 20, 2005)

The exact price is not known at this stage but we have to stay VERY competitive with the likes of MaxaBeam. Price will be announced by late next week. Also the Razorbeam is very light, only 950 grams(33 ounce).


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## Icebreak (May 21, 2005)

Welcome to CandlePowerForums, Rhino90.

The unique model names are good. I guess you guys are planning to trademark them?

What are PA66 and GF?

The Rayzorlite looks to be engineered with balance in mind. Was that a consideration?

The tripod mount on the Rayzorbeam was a good idea.

Some of the more knowledgable members occassionally do Super Light shoot outs and report their findings. You might want to consider sending a prototype to one of them for comparative beamshots.

With that in mind, some comparative beamshots against the Maxabeam would be helpful.

Rhino60, at (I'm guessing) around $1000.00+ these are out of my range but certainly not out of range for many members.

Good luck.

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- Jeff


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## Rhino90 (May 21, 2005)

Thanks for the welcome IceBreak /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grouphug.gif

PA66 is the material of the case. Polyamide 66 is the thermoplastic we used. The GF is Glass Reinforced. It has great characteristics.

The Rayzorlite is Balanced as you correctly noticed. This is so that it does not feel top heavy. I will put up beamshots against the Maxabeam this week but I can tell you I have no hesitation performance wise. 

Rhino


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## J_Oei (May 21, 2005)

So, the obvious question that is on everyone's mind is:

When is the Group Buy?
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif


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## Mr Ted Bear (May 21, 2005)

Hello Rhino90

Welcome to CPF...

When will this light be available? Country of origin? Are you the manufacturer? How can I get one / or see one for Superlight Shootout #3


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## Icebreak (May 21, 2005)

[ QUOTE ]
*Rhino90 said:*
PA66 is the material of the case. Polyamide 66 is the thermoplastic we used. The GF is Glass Reinforced. It has great characteristics.


[/ QUOTE ]
Ah. I see. Somewhat similar to the handle on my Gerber Applegate-Fairbairn Black Mini Covert folder. Very good.

-------------

- Jeff


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## Rhino90 (May 21, 2005)

Great to see responses... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

The final versions will be available in approx 2 weeks. We are in Australia and the manufacturer. I'm glad to also say our units are currently under evaluation against MaxaBeams for use onboard navel ships/cost guards. The MaxaBeams don't have a chance and I'll get beamshots up by sometime next week.

I can take orders in about 2 - 3 weeks.


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## MaxaBaker (May 21, 2005)

Wow, pretty nice.......but I wouldn't be so sure that they will smack down MaxaBeams in throw. Lumens, hell yeah (Me like lumens /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif ). But, there are 50watt HID mods here on CPF with much larger reflectors than what those razorlites have and it's somewhat doubted that they can even throw as far as a MaxaBeam. But, that's what the testing is for, right?

Looks like a very nice product you have yourself though. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbsup.gif And welcome to CPF!


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## Crot (May 21, 2005)

Great specs... but, (and this is just an opinion) is it really essential to use 50% of the exterior surface to tell users that it is "Fire" or "Search & Rescue" and who the manufacturer is (twice)? The Maxabeam still retains the professional looking edge. I'm impressed with the electrical specs, but it's time to hire a new industrial design engineer. Seriously. Flame away!


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## Steelwolf (May 21, 2005)

I'm really interested in this and am keeping a close eye on developments. Hopefully Aussie members will be able to get in on this without having to go on a USA roundtrip groupbuy.

I do find it curious that the closest you get to actually calling it HID is "xenon based light". I don't seem to see any other references that it is a HID light.

Also, which type of HID is this? You say xenon-based, so I'm guessing it will be similar to the type used in cars so that there will be a good amount of light from ignition, unlike the other type that takes a lot longer to warm up, but which is more efficient.


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## MaxaBaker (May 21, 2005)

I *think*, that these have to be 50watt metal halide HID lights (he says that they compete with a maxabeam, and 50watt xenon short arc definitly wont compete with a maxabeam). But, I can't make out any kind of bulb in the pictures provided. It's very interesting that HID isn't mentioned in the descriptions as well.


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## Dynacolt (May 21, 2005)

Maxa, I think Rhino was meaning it will beat Maxabeam to the Navy tender, rather than in output and throw (although I could be wrong).

Rhino, I'd be interested in a website link. Which Aus state are you in? I like your lights from the limited info on here, and am up for considering a purchase but definitely need more information and details. (another light in the collection really couldn't, hurt could it? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif )

Dave.


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## That_Guy (May 21, 2005)

Nice lights! It's great that you are located in Australia since I have been wanting a metal halide HID light for ages but have been reluctant to order one from overseas.
I have a few questions for you /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Where in Australia are you located?
What is your comapny's name? Do you have a website?
Do you have approximate prices in $AU?

Can you give the dimensions and weight of the two lights.
What bulbs do the lights use?
Are they designed to be able to run continuously at 50w, or is it only a temporary boost similar to the Maxabeam? What specific power levels can it operate at, and what are the runtimes at each level?

The Rayzorbeam throws further than the Razorlite, correct?
Is the Rayzorbeam as well balanced as the Rayzorlite?
Is the automated focus on the Rayzorlite electronically controlled similar to the Maxabeam, or is it manual?

Thank you for your time.


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## sorka (May 21, 2005)

I don't know what everyone is so excited about. It's obvious this isn't an HID light. If it were, they'd be all over it in the brochure.


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## MaxaBaker (May 21, 2005)

[ QUOTE ]
*Dynacolt said:*
Maxa, I think Rhino was meaning it will beat Maxabeam to the Navy tender, rather than in output and throw (although I could be wrong).

[/ QUOTE ]

I think he means both. They obviously seem to be competative with Peak Beam Systems, but I think they believe that their lights will outperform the MB as well because of this fallowing quote from rhino90:

"I will put up beamshots against the Maxabeam this week but I can tell you I have no hesitation performance wise."


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## Iron_Man (May 21, 2005)

I am a bit slow.....Spell out the "leading edge technology" that is used. I am sure you would not blow smoke up my ***.

All your technology are belong to us.

Les


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## Rhino90 (May 21, 2005)

WOW ok, I'll try and tackle each question.

The labels where required because of the navel tender etc..it's customized and the normal ones won't have the labels, unless you want that version.

The HID. I can tell you it is HID Metal halide, xenon based like in cars but CUSTOM filled with slightly different gases. We have patents out so all I can say is that Philips was not able to supply us, we went to Siemens. It does have a slight warm up, so you can't press BOOST immediately after power on. The lack of lamp descriptions is because of pending patents.

Our lights are up against MaxaBeams for the tender and I will get the results shortly. The MaxaBeams do have great throw, but I will know after the comparison. Remember the Rayors are very portable and lightweight---hint upcoming versions may look like a predator shoulder laser.

We don't have a website YET..so details on contact info will be up then. Price...again competitive with MB.

Rayzorbeam - 950gr - 1.5kg depending on choice of Li-Ion or Lead acid. 310x120x125mm
Rayzorlight - 1.45kg 105x105x365mm

They can run continually at 50W. For the Rayzorlight specific outputs levels are 35W, 50W. RB,28W and 50W. This is because the RL has a smaller diameter reflector so we compensate. The RB is balanced like the RL. The RB throws further. Auto focus and IR filter (optional).

The technology involved, I have to be careful, is different gases in the lamp and battery technology.


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## Raybo (May 21, 2005)

[ QUOTE ]
*Crot said:*
Great specs... but, (and this is just an opinion) is it really essential to use 50% of the exterior surface to tell users that it is "Fire" or "Search & Rescue" and who the manufacturer is (twice)? The Maxabeam still retains the professional looking edge. I'm impressed with the electrical specs, but it's time to hire a new industrial design engineer. Seriously. Flame away! 

[/ QUOTE ]

/\ I agree, looks kinda pretensious. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon3.gif


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## Dynacolt (May 22, 2005)

Good info Rhino, but we need more (ever-hungry are we at CPF /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif )
How long until they will become available, will you sell commercially, and again... which state are you in?

Please keeps us informed,
Thanks,

Dave.


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## Rhino90 (May 22, 2005)

We will sell commercially in about 3 weeks. I'm in VIC so I can organise a demo for locals when the light is finalised.

While waiting for the MaxaBeam to arrive for comparison, I have some quick beamshots for you all. 















let me know what you all think.


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## ledebuhr1 (May 22, 2005)

Is that the RazorBeam or Razorlite?? I am really impressed with thoes beamshots. Will these lights be aviable for sale at retailers in the US? or factory direct.


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## Rhino90 (May 22, 2005)

They are shots of the Rayzorbeam. The two lights are very similar in performance. The larger reflector of the RB allows it to throw slightly further. Otherwise, spill, beam profile etc. are similar.


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## Iron_Man (May 22, 2005)

Gee, I'm a hard sell but am warming up to these lights!

Les


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## Icebreak (May 22, 2005)

Rhino -

Good responses to the questions.

The beamshots look great.

Willing to organize a demo for locals? Well, that's just dandy. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbsup.gif

---------------

- Jeff


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## Phaserburn (May 22, 2005)

Did someone mention the price range yet?


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## Icebreak (May 22, 2005)

Rhino said competitive with the MaxaBeam but it hasn't been finalized yet.


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## Lurveleven (May 22, 2005)

How far away is the tree?
Is it just me, or does the beam look much wider than a Maxabeam?
It would be interesting to see how it compares to an Acro X990. I guess it is to much to hope for that it will be competetive in price with that one?
Rhino, will there be a special sale for CPF members? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/poke2.gif

I wish you all the best with your new products, they look really interesting.

Sigbjoern


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## lotsalumens (May 22, 2005)

I sure hope the price will be VERY competitive with the Maxabeam. Particularly when anyone can put together a killer 50W HID light for around $300 based on a Thor 15mcp. Sure it's not quite as nice a package, but it's not bad. 

When someone comes out with a good 50w light in the $300-400 range they are going ot do a lot of business.

Charles


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## Rhino90 (May 22, 2005)

They where just quick photos. i have no exact measurments but it was maybe over 250-300 meters. I have seen the X990 and it DOSN'T compare.

The beam is wider because we wanted more side spill. Makes the light more usefull and not as pin-point as the Maxabeams, no diffusion filter needed. Upcomming versions will have push-button spot/wide beam mode though.


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## Pajamas (May 22, 2005)

Definitely need to do a group buy -- maybe even a one-time at cost only for CPF'rs... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/naughty.gif


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## Rhino90 (May 22, 2005)

Also, these lights are waterproof (unlike Maxabeam - only weatherproof) and shock tested. It's small and light unlike a $300 Thor mod, portable and re-chargeable. They are made to be used by service personel and carried easily, not a bulky battery pack or cable to tangle up in. Rugged, unlike the x990. These aspects unfortunately make the price higher than other lights.

I'm interested to know of any other lights out there that are as small and lightweight.


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## Dynacolt (May 23, 2005)

Thanks for the info Rhino.
I promised myself NO MORE LIGHTS!!!!! However, this promise didn't include another HID light (I don't think it did??!!)

I'm in Vic, and would be very happy to attend a demo, and to give an independent report back to CPF.

Where are you planning on selling commercially? If you're doing this in 3 weeks, I presume you have a dealer or outlet lined up? Small, light and silly-bright is my passion, and from what I've seen here, the Rayzorbeam fits those descriptions.

Do you manufacture any other products? I'm figuring anyone who can develop and produce a quality and cutting-edge light would have other products (or specialised services).

I would be up for a group buy.

(Also, let us know how you go with feedback from the Navy and any other tenders you have offered these lights to)

Thanks,

Dave.


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## Rhino90 (May 23, 2005)

Initially, we will sell factory direct and ship direct to you. Please feel free to register your interest by private messaging me. Depending on responses I might put together a CPF special or group buy special if it's worth it. Prices will be annonced shortly (couple of weeks) after the comparison shots against a MaxaBeam and Thor are put up.

We have other products so stay tuned.


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## Burnt_Retinas (May 23, 2005)

Ditto others comments re more info on company. Really made in Aus? More info on company please.

Chris


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## That_Guy (May 23, 2005)

Can you give us a rough idea of price? Is it under $1000AU?


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## MaxaBaker (May 23, 2005)

Great beamshots! I am beginning to like this light because of it's ruggedness. I still have doubts that it will out-throw the Throw-King, but we will see soon enough I guess.


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## That_Guy (May 23, 2005)

One of my favourite things about this light, specifically the Rayzorbeam, is how light it is. 950g (2.1lbs) is amazingly light for a light of this power. That is lighter than those 6v lantern/dolphin style torches with the big 6v lantern batteries and 4.8v .75A kypton bulbs! It is the lightest 35w HID that I know of. The Beast comes in second at 3.25lb.

This light has overtaken the Kumkang as my new favourite 35w HID because it is the lightest, brightest and longest running 35w HID. It is also one of the toughest 35w HIDs on the market, second to The Beast.


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## Rhino90 (May 23, 2005)

We are an Australian company. The lights are Australian but off course parts are sourced from other countries as well. We have lots of other lights up coming. More info on the company will be on the website when it's up.

Approximate prices...well I have said competitive with Maxabeams but we truly believe we have a superior product. The question becomes what to price a product thats better than a Maxabeam, more useable, weight and size advantages, quick charge times etc...Maxabeams are about $1800US retail so it's definitely not going to be under $1000AU. I think CPF's know and appreciate the time, effort and development that goes in to a light like this.

We will inform of the outcomes of the tenders. Remember, on these tenders our lights are being compared to other lights as well and not just Maxabeams. It has to be better overall than ALL the lights the RB and RL are up against to win the tender, and that says alot more that just beamshots.


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## Rhino90 (May 23, 2005)

That_Guy, 

remember they both can run at 50W continous with over 1 hour run time, over 2.5 hours on standard. RL is 35W on standard and RB is 28W.


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## Sway (May 23, 2005)

[ QUOTE ]
*Rhino90 said:*
That_Guy, 

remember they both can run at 50W continous with over 1 hour run time, over 2.5 hours on standard. RL is 35W on standard and RB is 28W. 

[/ QUOTE ]

Will the Rayzorbeam give usable light at 1/2 mile, your beam shots look to be in the 300 yard range or just a little less guessing from the pic's.

I do like the lantern style of the light and it's size but it doesn’t look to have the throw of the MaxaBeam /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon3.gif sorry few lights do it's a hard act to follow with a D2S based lamp in a small reflector but I don’t think that’s what your after in your package. 

From the beam shots performance wise it looks like an X990 or a little better with the 50W lamp…..Just my 2 cent worth.


Later
Kelly


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## That_Guy (May 23, 2005)

Yes I know. I was just using the 35w figure to group all the different HID lights of a similar power and bulb type together so that the lower power 10w and 24w HIDs which use different types of bulbs were excluded. D2S would properly be better (I assume your lights use custom made automotive D2S bulbs).

It's a shame that the lights are over $1000AU since that is my limit on how much I can spend on a light. I didn't expect them to be that cheap and I can see that they are worth a lot more than that. Anything less than $1800US is a good price for a light like this when you consider the price that the IMO inferior Beast sells for. There is no doubt that there are some CPF members out there with either more money or less self control than me who will be willing to pay the price for this light.


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## Rhino90 (May 24, 2005)

beamshot of another light we have to show what we do best...PORTABLE lighting technology






just casualy lighting the side of a hotel from quite a distance away....i hope they were already awake in that middle room..


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## Luna (May 24, 2005)

[ QUOTE ]
*Rhino90 said:*
i hope they were already awake in that middle room.. 

[/ QUOTE ]


They probably were considering all that funky jazz comming out of that location. With that spotlight they probably thought they were gonna be the next winner of the AVN awards /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif


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## scudinc (May 24, 2005)

I believe I just experienced a "lightgasm". I must have one.


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## Dynacolt (May 26, 2005)

Whether you get the tender or not, it seems you have a great light, and you might not get the tender only because some other spec is not what they are after eg form factor. Best of luck /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

I don't think I can afford >AU$1000 at the moment (not that I wouldn't want one though). Any chance of selling just the bulb/ballast? Imagine that stuffed into a Dolphin for shock value /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Thanks again for the constant updates Rhino,

Dave.


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## Rhino90 (May 26, 2005)

Thanks Dynacolt

we are pretty sure we will get the tender. From reports, the Maxabeam is just to heavy/combersome, it has great throw but they want lumens and area coverage as well. I think the size and weight of our lights are also a big advantage.

Price wise, we are seriously thinking about a VERY SPECIAL price for CPF members only. We will release a VERY LIMITED quantity at a VERY SPECIAL PRICE. The exact pricing will be announced in 3-4 days. The price could be close or even below cost, that's why it's going to be very limited. We will absorb the cost and treat it like a marketing expense.


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## Lurveleven (May 26, 2005)

The weight is you biggest advantage. From the yet scarce information about it, I think the KumKang Polarion will be your closest competitor. The MaxaBeam is, at least for me, no option because of it's size and weight.

What kind of lithium cells does the Rayzorbeam use? Will I be able to replace these myself when they die of old age in 2-3 years time?
What is the lifetime and robustness of the lamp? Cost and availability of replacement? Can other brands be used as replacement if I'm not able to get a replacement from you?

Sigbjoern


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## Rhino90 (May 26, 2005)

The KumKang Polarion sounds interesting but it's 35W? and the hard metal casing looks bulky and heavy. I don't know much about it but I will look at it. Our lights are also waterproof.

The performance and weight of our lights are due to certain parts specially designed and specified by us. The lithium cells are not standard sizes or capacity so you cannot just get them off the shelf. This is also true of the lamp. As I said in another post above, the lamps are specially filled with certain gases besides the standard and the rods in them are different as well to achieve a certain power draw, lumen output and color temperature.

Lamp life is over 2200 hours and you will be able to get the parts direct from us. The lamp themselves are fragile as with any lamp, but in the light with shock damping they are quite robust. Direct contact details will be on the new website for replacements.


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## Lurveleven (May 26, 2005)

[ QUOTE ]
*Rhino90 said:*
The KumKang Polarion sounds interesting but it's 35W? and the hard metal casing looks bulky and heavy. I don't know much about it but I will look at it. Our lights are also waterproof.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, the KumKang is only 35W. I did manage to find the weight of it, 1.8 kg for body and 0.45 for battery, totals to 2.25 kg. Not as attractive as I first thought. The excessive weight is a real turnoff for me. It makes your RayzorBeam look even greater when that was the closest competion I could find.

Sigbjoern


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## Steelwolf (May 26, 2005)

Gosh... I'm saving up hard for this one. No way am I going to miss it. I'm even putting my own projects on hold so that I'll have enough cash on hand for this one. I think I can scrape AU$1000 together. Rhino, save a Razorbeam for me. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif Actually, which is the better (more robust and more efficient) package?

Wooohooo! 28W - 50W !!! And waterproof too. Gotta love that.

I am curious... I thought that HID bulbs could not be dimmed? Something about the plasma ball not being sustainable if the power drops too low? At 50W, is it over driven? Or is 50W the normal operating point and 28W is reduced power? If overdriven, would that shorten the bulb life?

And how waterproof is it? Pond or diving?


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## lotsalumens (May 26, 2005)

Wow that hotel shot is great! You mentioned that another of your lights was used for that photo. Any details?

Charles


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## Rhino90 (May 26, 2005)

The RB and RL are both robust and efficient. The RB puts out more lumens and throws slightly further.

The bulbs are not over driven, that's why you can run them at the full 50W constant. Our bulbs can operate at the reduced power by the combination of the electronics and the fact they are custom spec'ed. Waterproofing tests and reports will come in shortly.

I put up the hotel picture to be a technology demonstrator. This is the stuff we can do. We have been in the lighting business for over 20 years doing high end products. Only now have we decided to do other types of products and you will see more coming. All unique. All I can say about that light used in the hotel picture is that it is portable, surprisingly small for a light of that power. I think CPF members can tell what type of light it is by the color and beam profile/outline on the hotel wall. It's expensive, very and all I can say is 500W. Only if you are genuinely interested, you can PM me about it but it is expensive.


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## SATURN (May 26, 2005)

Does it use the 28-50 Watt Auerswald Ballast - PN SYS05001-N ???


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## SATURN (May 26, 2005)

Or their 35-50 watt Ballast PN SYS03510:

From MFRs Website:

SYS03510, is capable of producing 5200lm+ from a standard D2S metal halide lamps, (D2S, MPXL-DL35, MPXL-DL50, MPXL-RP50, GE Xensation and Osram D2S, HTI S 35/12). This lumen gain is achieved by boosting the lamp wattage from 35W to 50W, (D2R lamps with integral reflector may be lower depending on application). 

D2S metal halide lamps are designed to withstand wattage rises to 70W (additional cooling may be required). Life of a D2S, (approx 2000 hours), when boosted to 50W is slightly reduced. Boosting is achieved by increasing the inner pressure of the lamp, (increasing input voltage), thus producing more lumens from a single burner. Higher wattages available on request. 

The increase in lumen output from 35W to 50W is approximately 20%.

The SYS03510 is a complete system ready for installation to your housing. Intended for professional applications, it comes from the factory set at 50W, simply cut a resistor and add a switch to toggle between 35W & 50W. Heat production is slightly higher when boosted. Due to its high efficiency, supplemental cooling is usually not needed (some applications may require additional cooling). The compact size makes this system ideal for Aviation, Marine, Portable flood & spot, Security, Architectural, Fiber optics, Emergency back up lighting, Dive lights, and numerous other applications where compact size and high efficiency is needed. A lot of light in a small package!


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## Steelwolf (May 27, 2005)

[ QUOTE ]
The RB puts out more lumens and throws slightly further.

[/ QUOTE ]

I infer that the reflector of the RB is geared towards a slightly tighter focus. I also infer from previous posts that the initial model will not have adjustable focus, but that it might become available in a later version as a 2-stage switch.

I'm curious why you were not able to find any off-the-self Li-ion batteries that would suit your needs. Was it size issues to allow compatibility between the SLA and Li-ion options? Or was it available power capacity, or available current issues? Or even just the problem of the cutoff/protection circuits not being robust enough for your application?


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## Rhino90 (May 27, 2005)

Hi Steelwolf,

The beam profiles of the two lights are very similar. The RB is not specifically designed to be tighter than the RL. They both "look" similar in usage. The RB only throws slightly further due to the fact it has a slightly larger diameter reflector. Otherwise the choice is more a preference on form factor and slight overal lumen output.

With the batteries, it was not size issues or compatibility with the SLA option. The SLA version just a little heavier with runtime differences. It was more performance driven, current and capacity.

Saturn, our electronics are similar in operation but it's our own, custom design.


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## Rhino90 (May 27, 2005)

Steelwolf, your correct in that the initial model will not have adjustable focus, only a later version will have it.


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## Rhino90 (May 27, 2005)

CPF ONLY LIMITED SPECIAL PRICING CONFIRMED!! 

I will post the special later today.


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## Rhino90 (May 27, 2005)

SPECIAL INTRODUCTORY PRICE FOR CPF GROUP BUY ONLY

Retail price of the lights will be:
$1500US

SPECIAL CPF price for the Rayzorbeam will be $850US plus taxes where applicable.
Rayzorlites 5% less. To make this price possible, we will need to reach a certain amount. Once reached, orders will be confirmed, payment arranged and final shipping dates will be 45-50 Days. This is because we are waiting for the FINAL specifications and water tests to come thru. Website will be ready in 2-3 weeks at the most with all break down pricing of accessories ,spare parts etc. It will be VERY limited at this price, but if it does not reach the limit, pricing is as follows:

Retail price break down
1 to 10 Units US$1500
11 to 50 units US$ 1350.00
51 to 100 units US$ 1100.00

Please PM me to place an order, once the limit is reached I will notify.

Also CPF members that could help with distribution in certain territories please PM me about it. We are looking for partners overseas.


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## That_Guy (May 27, 2005)

Can you give a price in AUS$


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## Rhino90 (May 27, 2005)

The RB is $1250AU GST inc.


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## Burnt_Retinas (May 27, 2005)

Now that's a discount /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

As your company has been in the lighting business for over 20 years doing high end products, then what is it's name? Did I miss this info in the posts?. If so, I apologize.

Chris


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## That_Guy (May 27, 2005)

Does the US price include shipping?

Assuming it doesn't take into account shipping Australian price = US price / AU dollar + 10% GST

so Australian price should equal:

850US/0.76 = $1118AU * 1.1

= $1230AU

You quoted $1250AU above which is $20 more than it should be, and that is assuming the price doesn't include shipping to the US.

Please explain.


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## Dynacolt (May 27, 2005)

SOoooooooooo tempting, but also tempting are your teasers about "other products"
I will consider, but I'm not in yet (though your generous offer is greatly appreciated). I will continue to follow this thread though, and keep an eye on your website. If other products don't appeal I will reconsider (but the idea of a focusable version is also very appealing).

Too many choices and never enough funds /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Dave.


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## Rhino90 (May 27, 2005)

ok, if you want me to explain the $20 difference. Getting a bank or financial institution to convert at the official rate is hard, they always add a couple of % to make a little profit, plus their conversion fees (eg. credit cards) We have to cover ourselves especially at an almost 50% reduced price for the CPF special. I have said this price is limited and we cannot do it again, and I have been open in having to justify our price. Also, we calculate conversion on the day we receive payment in Australia, so the figure was meant as a guide only.

Company information will be up on the new website. It will detail our history as well


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## Steelwolf (May 27, 2005)

OK, just to confirm, US$850 for the Razorbeam with Li-ion battery. Is the charger included? Actually, what is included in the price? Local (AU) shipping?

Can we fix a AU dollar amount for Aussie buyers? Maybe use the average conversion rate from this week? Or something that you consider fair? 

It's just that if I do get this light, I will probably EFT direct from my bank, rather than going the whole rigamarole of converting currencies or directing the bank to pay the equivalent of so many US dollars. They'll charge you for the privilege. I always try to do the bank out of earning a few quid if I can. Afterall, they posted over AU$1bn profit last year. I'm sure they could do without gouging a few of us. Also, fixing an AU$ amount will definitely help me with getting my finances in order.

Now, I'm fairly sure I'll spring for this light, but what about those water tests? If it isn't diveable, I can't justify getting this light and will just have to continue developing my own homemade version.

And finally, if we have PM'd about interest, do we have to PM again to place an order? And how binding will it be? I will definitely not be able to afford US$1350 at this time.


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## JimH (May 27, 2005)

Does the CPF Rayzorbeam come with Li-Ion or SLA battery. How much extra for focusing capability in the Rayzorbeam.

I would only be interested in the Li-Ion version because of the weight.


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## Rhino90 (May 27, 2005)

I'll see what I can do about fixing AU$. If you have PM'd me, you don't have to do it again. We just want to get a gauge on how many SERIOUS buyers we get so we can try to do the special. The PM is not binding, but please be serious if you are going to PM me. It’s not binding because I know members will want the final specifications, water tests and beamshots to be placed online before they go ahead. All that information is coming. We want to please our clients so we want to provide the most accurate information on what you are getting.

The RB will not have adjustable focus until version 2 arrives. 

The price includes the Rayzorbeam with Li-Ion battery, charger, shoulder strap, instruction manual and 12 months limited warranty - excluding lamp.


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## JimH (May 27, 2005)

PM sent.


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## Lurveleven (May 27, 2005)

How about setting the price in AU$ for everyone, then there is no loss for you if exchange rates changes. One can pay with AU$ through Paypal.

Sigbjoern


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## Steelwolf (May 28, 2005)

Any possibility that version 2 will be available under the same circumstance, ie heavily discounted CPF group buy? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Rhino, we must be driving you mad with all these questions. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif But with such a large outlay, I think we want to be assured that we are getting a system that won't be superseded anytime soon. It's very bad for morale. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif Probably good for the second-hand market though. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif


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## Rhino90 (May 28, 2005)

Australian price has now been set to $1250AU. Shipping is extra. We will charge shipping whatever it costs us as I don't think it's fair to have a fix shipping price. This is to make it easier for Australian buyers. We are doing the CPF group special to get our lights out there, to an audiance that knows and understands lights. This special will not be repeated with other products or versions of the RB or RL. Remember the special is almost 50% off and we absorb some costs to make it a little under $1000US.


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## Dynacolt (May 28, 2005)

I'm gonna save my bu** off for a few weeks and see what I can come up with, but I'm not going to PM at this stage (I am serious about wanting this light, but at the same time seriously cannot commit at this stage, sorry Rhino).

You might want to post a link to this thread in the Group Buy forum if you haven't already done so. It should generate much interest.

Dave.


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## Rhino90 (May 28, 2005)

Thanks for the tip Dynacolt, I'll do that. AT this stage we are just 100% on getting the tests and website done.


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## lasercrazy (May 28, 2005)

I might be interested in this beast, what exactly is it? How much does it weigh and how big is it, runtime? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif


[ QUOTE ]
*Rhino90 said:*
beamshot of another light we have to show what we do best...PORTABLE lighting technology






just casualy lighting the side of a hotel from quite a distance away....i hope they were already awake in that middle room.. 

[/ QUOTE ]


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## Rhino90 (May 29, 2005)

Lasercrazy,

please PM me if you are serious about this light. It's expensive. I have said it's 500W, portable and surprisingly small for a light of this power. It runs tethered (car battery) and can be hand held. Just for info, the lamp for this light is $3000, it’s sealed, water and dust proof. If you are serious, please PM.


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## lotsalumens (May 29, 2005)

If you post an image like that you have to expect people to ask questions. That is what these forums are about...sharing information. Most companies would jump at the chance to tell a targeted audience about a product that generated a lot of interested, even if highly priced. Not surprisingly it can spur interest in the company and its other products. Also rumor has it that one member here recently spent close to $7k on a high-end light, and you never know who else might be reading your posts. The idea that details can only be shared with those prepared to buy (a product they know very little about) seems somewhat ill-conceived.


cfb


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## JimH (May 29, 2005)

[ QUOTE ]
*Rhino90 said:*
beamshot of another light we have to show what we do best...PORTABLE lighting technology





just casualy lighting the side of a hotel from quite a distance away....i hope they were already awake in that middle room.. 

[/ QUOTE ]

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/takeit.gif but I'm waiting for the pocket version to come out.


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## Rhino90 (May 29, 2005)

Lotsalumens,

I understand what you are saying and I appreciate the interest. It's not that I don't want to talk about it, it's just I want this thread to concentrate and be about the RB and RL. I don't want to mix the different products as it can get confusing to follow. I will post details of other products in different threads. I do appreciate CPF members interest, after all that is why I'm in the forums. I also try to be open about out products, doing my best to answer questions and technical details.


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## lotsalumens (May 29, 2005)

Rhino,

You are doing an excellent job answering people's questions about the new products, and I do understand your desire to keep the thread focused. I am looking forward to hearing more about your other higher end products elsewhere. 

cfb


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## Psychomodo (May 30, 2005)

[ QUOTE ]
*JimH said:*
[ QUOTE ]
*Rhino90 said:*
beamshot of another light we have to show what we do best...PORTABLE lighting technology






just casualy lighting the side of a hotel from quite a distance away....i hope they were already awake in that middle room.. 

[/ QUOTE ]

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/takeit.gif but I'm waiting for the pocket version to come out.





[/ QUOTE ]

I think Larry is working on a 123 version /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon15.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif


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## Rhino90 (May 31, 2005)

Thanks to all CPF members for the interest. We are almost ready to go. We will have options and prices on batteries, spare lamps and Pelican cases to go with the lights ready soon, they normally come in Pelican cases but unfortunately not for the CPF special as we are trying to make it cheaper for CPF members to get the lights. Also with the lamps, we will have options for different color temperatures. This is because our lamps are custom specified and filled by us. The color temperature will range from cool warm to blue-white-white. This will affect lumen output, with whiter-bluer reducing output slightly for better visibility and warmer temperatures with better lumen output. Details will be made available on the different lamps soon.


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## lasercrazy (Jun 1, 2005)

[ QUOTE ]
*Psychomodo said:*
[ QUOTE ]
*JimH said:*
[ QUOTE ]
*Rhino90 said:*
beamshot of another light we have to show what we do best...PORTABLE lighting technology





just casualy lighting the side of a hotel from quite a distance away....i hope they were already awake in that middle room.. 

[/ QUOTE ]

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/takeit.gif but I'm waiting for the pocket version to come out.





[/ QUOTE ]

I think Larry is working on a 123 version  /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon15.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif 

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL 1,000 Rcr123a batteries? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/yellowlaugh.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hahaha.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif


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## Steelwolf (Jun 4, 2005)

Seems to have gone all quiet on the Rayzor front. Any word yet from the pending tests? GB date? Package/pricing options?


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## Rhino90 (Jun 5, 2005)

Still here..

Lots of work finalizing the webpage etc. It's all coming along very well though. The initial time frame is still on track and we are almost ready to ship. Patents and registration have come through as well. More details coming very soon. In the meantime, you can ask questions and I’ll endeavor to answer them.


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## Steelwolf (Jun 5, 2005)

The only real questions remaining for me are:
1. Waterproofness. How deep can it go?
2. Optional extras and cost. Extra batteries, carry case, etc.
3. What is the expected run time of the RB on the nominal 28W? You've mentioned that 50W is at least 1hr. 28W would be at least 2hrs?
4.How easy would it be to swap over to a new battery? Snaps and clasps, or screws and bolts?

Thanks Rhino.


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## Sway (Jun 5, 2005)

Can you comment anymore on the *“CUSTOM Lamp filled with slightly different gases”* how is it’s performance different than the standard D2S HID lamp such as total lumen and arc gap size.

Thanks!
Kelly


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## mattheww50 (Jun 5, 2005)

I am not the manufacturer, but I have lived in Australia, and had to deal with the supplier chain.

It is no secret that you 'manipulate' the color temperature (and indirectly, lumen output) by altering the gases used in the HID lamp.

The real issue is the supply chain in Australia tends to be awful. In the USA or Europe, you can probably get 4 or 5 different colour temperature D2S type lamps right off the shelf. Australia is a tiny market and you discover early on that supplier problems that are trivial in the USA or Europe, are nightmares in Australia. I could often buy parts from the USA, and get them both faster and cheaper then I could locally!

So while a custom filled lamps might seem like insanity in the USA, in Australia is may in fact be the best of several very bad choices.

The result is the ability to produce the same range of color temperatures/lumen outputs that we take for granted in the USA. If they were in the USA or Europe they wouldn't need a custom filled lamp, because the range of product they need would be readily available off the shelf. The custom filled lamp simply allows them to effective make any of the available D2S configurations readily available in the USA, Europe or possibly even Asia


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## brightnorm (Jun 5, 2005)

[ QUOTE ]
*Rhino90 said:*
We will sell commercially in about 3 weeks. I'm in VIC so I can organise a demo for locals when the light is finalised.
...

[/ QUOTE ]

Rhino,

If the light isn't finalized yet and you will sell commercially in three weeks I'd like some information about your prototype/beta testing. Has it been extensive using multiple testers under varying condidtions?

Your lights are very interesting but I would be more likely to buy a light (or any product) if I knew it had been thoroughly tested for function and reliability. I'd also like to know whether the lights are regulated.

Brightnorm


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## Rhino90 (Jun 6, 2005)

Hi all,

Waterproof tests are coming but I can tell you it’s about approximately 2 meters. Obviously it’s not a diving light and it will actually float in water. This is for marine and coast guards; they don’t want the lights to sink if they drop it which I think is understandable. They are completely dust proof. An upcoming diving version will be made available which will be pressurized internally by inert gases and will be a VERY deep diver.

We have spare batteries, lamps etc.. The battery is not quick to change because of the water seals and gaskets. It has screws that will need to be removed. Case options are quite varied at this stage and we are deciding on which ones to offer. We have Pelican, metal storm cases and anodized versions as well.

Runtime on 28W will be greater than 2.5 hours. Exact time tests are forthcoming. Also the lights are regulated so they will use the battery efficiently and stay bright. In fact, when you switch the lights on, you will see power and lumen levels go up and down for a few seconds as the electronics compare how much voltage and current the battery is giving and modifying supply by boosting or trimming power.

“I could often buy parts from the USA, and get them both faster and cheaper then I could locally!” – mattheww50 

The lamps are not just filled to manipulate color temperature. It is also NOT a supply chain issue as if that were the case it would be MUCH simpler and CHEAPER for us to just import them and pop them in our lights in bulk, just as mattheww50 pointed out. We custom fill and design for more than just color. The rods are slightly different, in both material and spacing. This affects power draw. Other issues I cannot comment on at this time.

Our lights are undergoing a tender I have mention in previous posts. I think this will be a better indication of how extensive the tests are going to be. Our lights are up against other well known lights, not just in performance but overall. They have to pass military requirements in short. 

Cheers


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## Rhino90 (Jun 6, 2005)

Pre-lim water test. 1 hour.

RayzorBeam 






RayzorLite





The lights were ok after the test. More extensive test results to follow.


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## Potent (Jun 8, 2005)

Has anybody seen the new Rayzorbeam? i belive it is an extreamly powerful illuminator.that could be a potential wipe out compares to x990 and MB .


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## peakbeam1 (Jun 8, 2005)

Rhino90,
I'd like to welcome you to the forum. I see your preparing to test the MaxaBeam against your new light. I just wanted to make you aware that Peak Beam Systems is getting set to release a new light this fall. It's called the Maxabeam Tropper. It more closely compares to your new razorbeam in that it is hid based. If you want to compare apples to apples The Trooper would probably be a better bet. If you would like to arrange a test please contact me @ (610) 353-8505.
Robert Kleinhans
Director of Engineering
Peak Beam Systems, Inc.
www.peakbeam.com

This post has been edited so as not to cloud the true subject of the thread, the Razorbeam. This was not my intent. I'm sorry for any confusion this may have caused.
Robert


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## Lurveleven (Jun 8, 2005)

Robert, can you please delete your post and instead start a new post about it so this thread doesn't get "polluted" with posts about your light. I think this is what some call thread hijacking.

Sigbjoern


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## MaxaBaker (Jun 8, 2005)

I don't really think he's hijacking the thread. He isn't posting anymore about that light here and he isn't starting a new thread about it anytime soon, so it's really just a matter of interest in a comparison (which certainly includes the Razor lights).


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## bindibadgi (Jun 8, 2005)

I think as long as we're civilised and keep this thread on track about Rhino's lights, then Robert's post is quite acceptable to me. I was glad to see that he was welcoming and civilised, and I think that if we all remember who's thread it is, anybody is free to start another thread or PM anyone about separate matters. Robert made an offer for Rhino to test against a more contemporary light, and I think it's a great idea!

On a lighter note, great sigline Baker. I think it's very close to the dope-ler effect, when a bad idea comes at you fast enough it looks like a good one!


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## Stelth (Jun 9, 2005)

Hi everybody at this forum, 
And to you Rhino.
I have been following this thread at the last week and i must say that i found the Rayzorbeam to be a very interesting product.
Could you please indicate , or point me to a location in Australia where i can see the Rayzorbeam in action .
Additionally will you be having any OEM options available
Has it passed any NATA tests ?
Can one extend the run time with an additional fitted battery, and what will be the weight ?
Is it intrisically safe to be used in under ground mining,petrochemical plants etc?


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## Rhino90 (Jun 9, 2005)

Robert,

Thanks for the welcome. It’s very interesting to know you also have a HID light coming around at the $1500 mark, and with very similar characteristics as our own Rayzors. If the MaxaBeam is anything to go by, I’m sure it’s going to be a great light. As soon as our lights hit the production version, I’m sure there will not be a shortage of people here on CPF that are willing to put the lights head-to-head. I’m also very interested to see this new HID from Peak Beam, and I will contact you when appropriate.

Stelth, we are in Victoria and I can arrange a demo of the Rayzorbeam when it’s in the final stages. I have also had similar requests from other people, so we can have a little get together. We are also seriously thinking about OEM options as well. The NATA tests are taking place as I speak. You cannot extend run time at this stage with extra batteries because of the water-tight seals and spacing inside the lights. Also remember that a feature of the RayzorLite is the quick release battery pack so you can swap out the batteries quickly, you can see it in the pictures I first posted. 

Regards


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## Burnt_Retinas (Jun 10, 2005)

Please excuse my ignorance, but what are NATA tests and who is doing these 'NATA' tests?

Hanging out to see this light /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Chris


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## Potent (Jun 10, 2005)

NATA is the NATIONAL TEST AUTHORITY institution in Australia , it has internationaly approved laboratories throghout the nation and are all internationally recognised by the Standard Code.
Aproval from such institution means a clearance stamp in regards to the tests done , in that case it could involve submersion tests , vibration tasts, shock tests,Temprature,EMC, RFI, and so on.
Normaly in the case of hand held battery operated units they evaluate only required level by standard VS lamp type from what i know.
As to the Rayzorbeam i personally think that there are a few positive surprises on the way from the Rayzors.


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## NikolaTesla (Jun 10, 2005)

Finally some neat new cool stuff comes along from more than one direction. Can't wait to see them both up close and MY hands....


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## Icebreak (Jun 11, 2005)

[ QUOTE ]
*Stelth said:*
Hi everybody at this forum, 
And to you Rhino.
I have been following this thread at the last week and i must say that i found the Rayzorbeam to be a very interesting product.
Could you please indicate , or point me to a location in Australia where i can see the Rayzorbeam in action ...


[/ QUOTE ]
Considering that you must be an expert in high powered light solutions, I would be interested in hearing your opinion of the Rayzorbeam once you've seen one in action.

BTW, welcome to candlepowerforums.

[ QUOTE ]
*Potent said:*
Normaly in the case of hand held battery operated units they evaluate only required level by standard VS lamp type from what i know.
As to the Rayzorbeam i personally think that there are a few positive surprises on the way from the Rayzors. 

[/ QUOTE ]
I believe that you too, sir, may be an expert in high powered light solutions and at minimum an expert in EE. So, I'm also looking forward your opinion of the Rayzors once you've seen them in action. It sounds that, by trade, you may have a more intimate knowledge of the engineering required to produce the Rayzors than most.

Welcome to candlepowerforums.

[ QUOTE ]
*Rhino90 said:*
An upcoming diving version will be made available which will be pressurized internally by inert gases and will be a VERY deep diver.


[/ QUOTE ]
Wow.

Rhino -

Your thread has attacted the interest of industry leaders and lighting enthusiast heavy-hitters. This is a fine example of the symbiotic relationship many members like to participate in and see taking place.

[ QUOTE ]
*NikolaTesla said:*
Finally some neat new cool stuff comes along from more than one direction. Can't wait to see them both up close and MY hands.... 

[/ QUOTE ]
Now, that's a CPFer. _Gettin' both._ /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/clap.gif


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## Burnt_Retinas (Jun 11, 2005)

Thanks for that Potent, and welcome.

Are you associated with the Razorlight/beam project?

Thanks again,

Chris


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## Rayzorbeam (Jun 13, 2005)

I am new to to the Forums although I have been an outside observer from time to time for a number of years.
Since it is a long weekend and I have a few spare moments, I thought that it is about time to intercept the communications here and identify myself as the Original Rayzor maker.
To begin with I would like to thank all the individuals that have been taking time observing this thread, and following up by direct communication with Rhino. Additionally, to all the other hitters, including the critics, if there where any!
We at Rayzorbeam value all your comments and are looking forward anxiously to service the market needs in the illumination industry.
From a personal point of view I can tell you that this project has taken time to accomplish and needless to say also a respectable sum of $$.
In concept the concentration and focus were only aimed at creating a product which will be extremely friendly,compliant,light weight,& efficient.
A product which will claim its own market place without entering into any competition with other existing products. And work in cooperation with other market players in due course.
As we are extremely busy at the moment finalizing the required details in order to kick start with the Razor range, we will do our utmost to keep you updated as fast as we can.
I have noted all of your comments and hopefully within a short period of time we will be able to satisfy all of your requests.

Thank you Reuven


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## Crot (Jun 13, 2005)

Now I'm confused. Who is the designated spokesperson for the products?

I'm looking forward to more comprehensive physical, electrical and optical data. It looks really promising so far. I hope you are very successful.


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## Rhino90 (Jun 13, 2005)

I welcome our founder, president and chief designer of Rayzorbeam to the CPF forums. Reuven will provide input from time to time if things are not clear or he feels he needs to add something, after all he is the designer of the Rayzorbeam. I will still be the spokeperson and contact for the Rayzorbeam. 

Regards


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## Dynacolt (Jun 19, 2005)

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/bumpit.gif
Welcome Reuven, and best wishes in your new venture and change of direction. I'm looking forward to more details on your line of lights, and to the website coming online. The RB certainly seems to be a competitor in the HID market and any evaluations and testing results would be most appreciated. (I just hope you didn't make your water-tightness tester hold the RL in that tank for the full hour /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif )

Dave.


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## Rayzorbeam (Jun 21, 2005)

Thanks Dave , the product is new and the venture is not , i do not know what you reffer to as a change in direction!
But if from memory you link me to the repair workshops at Chaltenham,Bentleigh& Seaford then I am the right guy (re:miniboard Camera's). those workshops helped me finance the development of a larger Range of High power illumination devices-So the correction is that the past was a short change in direction but in the same line .
Feel free to send me an email .
As to the Hand in the water , the photo was taken as mark just placed the Rayzorlite in the water Tank, in fact you can notice that he is just holding it with his fingers, additionally we wanted to add the dimention of Hand size to Rayzorlite.
Regards and thank you.


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## Glo_in_dark (Jun 24, 2005)

Rayzorbeam - Any new info on the testing? Lots of enlightened minds would like to know.
Thanks.


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## Rayzorbeam (Jun 26, 2005)

Glo in dark! how are you and how dark it is??
A. We are currently queued up among other Companies for the tests and henc /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gife the delay, however i can tell you that from preliminary tests Razorbeam has undergone a Drop test from 3 meters to a concrete block while operating- RESULT:: continued to operate with minor damage to the outer case of which we are now correcting we have made the required changes to the Mold.
B. Rayzorlite will also come with a 1/4" inch Tripod mount for additional attachments in the future.
C. Rayzorbeam/Lite will be available in two extra colors .
RED-- FIRE 
YELLOW-- SEARCH & RESCUE
D. A selection of several filters too.

Regards /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif


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## Hallis (Jun 26, 2005)

This does seem to be a very nice light. I cannot wait to see it in the hands of one of our resident test evaluators such as Mr. Ted Bear. He is our go-to man for the side-by-side comparisons of the best HID lights that the consumer market has to offer. And even quite a few for the Prosumer and professional market lights as well. 

From what i have seen so far i imagine your light will stack up well against the rest of the field, And I would be willing to bet that we will be suprised by its output relative to its size. Those in-tank shots alone make it look like it is putting quite a large ammount of light. I wouldnt be dropping a Maxabeam into a tank of water /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif so that alone speaks well of your product. 

Unfortunately i cannot afford that high class of a light. With Maxabeam retail kits even being available on eBay for $700 US that is still out of my range. I do, however, know that if and when you do offer this light you will have quite a few buyers lined up for them as long as we get one into the hands of Jeff for testing against the Maxa, Surefire Beast, Ken5, x990 and a few others. 

Shane


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## Rhino90 (Jun 26, 2005)

Hi Hallis,

Mr. Ted Bear has already requested a unit for tests but we have not finalized the final version of the lights yet. We want him to have exactly what the buyer will get, not a development unit that will differ from the shipping ones. As Rayzorbeam stated, after the 3 meter drop test onto concrete resulted in minor damage to the outer case, we needed to make small changes to the case even though the light still operated. These are the small things that take time, but I’m sure buyers will want us to do these test instead of rushing a product to market.

You are also correct that these lights are very special in their output to size and weight areas. They are very light for what they produce. Again, a lot of info will be on the website.

Regards


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## Rhino90 (Jun 28, 2005)

We are close to having the website done and the lights finished. The July results of the test and tender will be completed soon also. I have some size comparisons with the Thor but the Rayzors weigh much less.


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## Rhino90 (Jun 29, 2005)

final specs


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## cue003 (Jun 29, 2005)

Very nice indeed. I think I like the Razorlite a little better. Wonder what the pricepoint will be. Are those beamshots above at the 28W setting or at the "boost" of 50W? How long does the boost last when you hit the button?

Is the runtime of 2.5 hours based on the boost setting or on the simply click it on and run it "regular" setting?

Curtis


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## Rhino90 (Jun 29, 2005)

Hi Cue,

The shots are at regular settings and the runtime is based on regular as well. On boost, runtimes will be reduced by approximately half, and when you press boost it will last for 3 mins then return to normal power levels. You can press boost again if you require. This is to make sure it's not accidently left on boost and drains power too quickly.

Regards


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## CLHC (Jun 29, 2005)

Greetings Rhino90 & Everyone!

These Rayzors peaked my interest and therefore I have to ask this question with regards to the "spec" sheet that you've posted. I noticed that the RB's Lamp Max Lumens is 3500 while the RL's Lamp Max Lumens is 5000. Could you please explain this?

Thanks!


----------



## Rhino90 (Jun 29, 2005)

Hi CHC,

The RL has a higher lumen rating to compensate for the smaller diameter reflector. In use both lights are almost identical in performance. The wattage of the RL on normal is also higher so power requirements differ.

Regards


----------



## JimH (Jun 30, 2005)

Just curious - if you put a 5000 lumen bulb in the RL, why not also put it in the RB for even more throw/performance.


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## Rhino90 (Jun 30, 2005)

Hi Jim,

We can put the 5000 lumen bulb in the RB but it will add weight. Remember the increased power requirements of the higher output lamp would need more power from the batteries. This will shorten run-time and if we add more cells to the battery it will increase weight. The RL is slightly heavier. Also remember these lights are aimed at military and professional markets where weight is very crucial. You cannot go to war with something the size and weight of the Costco HID or Thor. So we balance usability against specs. It will get much more use if it is light weight and portable. These lumen ratings are also conservative and really used only as an indication. I’m sure CPF members would know there’s more to a light than specs alone.

Regards


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## JimH (Jun 30, 2005)

Rhino,

Thanks for the answer. I have another much bigger question, but if you can't answer it yet that's okay - when can I buy one?






My personal observation - from everything I've seen so far, you have put together one hell of a light, in both the performance and quality departments. Only one department left - sales


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## modamag (Jul 1, 2005)

WOW! How did I missed this thread.

If only I knew about your product 4 months ago. It would have saved me alot (ALOT!) of trouble.

$1100.00 is a really great deal for this light. Considering all the development & testing your company invested.

For my prototypes, I have reached near that $$$.

Group Buy ANYONE?


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## cue003 (Jul 1, 2005)

Modamag, I would join you on that group buy if we can get a pretty nice discount.

Curtis


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## JimH (Jul 1, 2005)

[ QUOTE ]
*modamag said:*
Group Buy ANYONE? 

[/ QUOTE ]

You already got my name on the list - right?


----------



## Hallis (Jul 1, 2005)

Very nice lights indeed. But quite out of my price range. lol anybody want to start a Hallis fund? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/nana.gif

Shane


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## Dynacolt (Jul 1, 2005)

Is this light made in Australia? Can we call it our own "Superlight"? That would make a nice change from always relying on imported lights /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

I'm really liking the small form factor and you must have a great electronics engineer to pack such a reliable ballast and boost timer into that small case!

I'm also looking forward to a local demonstration of your products. Any chance of a few of us keen Aussies having a tour of your R&D facility?

Dave.


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## Rhino90 (Jul 3, 2005)

Group buy details appear earlier on in the thread with prices.

Jim, I have you on my list and it's getting very close, you'll have one soon.

Dynacolt, where are you in Victoria?


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## cue003 (Jul 3, 2005)

Ok, thanks Rhino, I found the info early on in the thread. PM on its way.

Curtis


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## Catdaddy (Jul 3, 2005)

I am in on this group buy if that's ok with you guys!
John


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## Rhino90 (Jul 4, 2005)

no probs Catdaddy


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## Grox (Jul 5, 2005)

Rhino90,

I'd love to be in on a little product demo too! I'm in Melbourne.

Cheers
Grox


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## cue003 (Jul 8, 2005)

Rhino, Is there a car/truck charging option available. Can you use the light while it is charging on the AC charger?

Thanks.

Curtis


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## shannow (Jul 9, 2005)

I might join in this group buy if the price is right


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## KillingTime (Jul 9, 2005)

1. Can you charge the RazorLite while the battery is still attached?
2. What's the warm up time for the above from cold?

Thanks.


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## Rhino90 (Jul 11, 2005)

warm up time is very quick, about 10 secs but to use boost takes about 30 secs. There is a car/truck 12v charger available. Operation while charging is being implemented.


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## Lurveleven (Jul 11, 2005)

Will there be a carrying strap for the RayzorLite, or is this only available for the RayzorBeam?

Do you have bigger beamshots comparing the beam/output of the RayzorLite and RayzorBeam? I found the ones on the posted factsheets too small to be of any value for me.

Sigbjoern


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## Rhino90 (Jul 11, 2005)

Both lights will come with carrying straps. I will post more pictures and size comparisons with maglights as requested. We are just wrapping up the websites and reports.


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## StuGatz (Jul 11, 2005)

This sounds most interesting. However, I must await additional info before a commitment to the group buy.

All the very best regards,

Stuart


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## cue003 (Jul 19, 2005)

Looking forward to seeing more pictures and comparision shots as well as shots which the same person holding both lights for a solid size comparision.

Thanks

Curtis


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## Steelwolf (Jul 20, 2005)

Been about a week now. Just wondering how things are coming along?


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## Rhino90 (Jul 27, 2005)

more coming soon......very soon...we are flat out but in the last leg to launch.


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## freeze12 (Jul 27, 2005)

Anticipation!!!!!!!! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/Christo_pull_hair.gif


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## cue003 (Jul 31, 2005)

Rhino90,

Are you guys working on a dive light as well?


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## AlexGT (Jul 31, 2005)

I have a question about the final specs on the razorbeam and razorlite it says operating temperatures from -50 celsius to 250 celsius (2.5 times the boiling temperature of water) Are those specs correct? I don't think even batteries or the plastic can survive that heat (482F) or you won't need the thermal cutout if they can operate at that temp.

Check it out before you do the final print.

HTH
AlexGT


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## Rhino90 (Aug 1, 2005)

we are working on a dive light, preliminary spec’s and ideas a being evaluated. Our first priority is to get the RB and RL to shipping status.

Alex, the temperatures are thermal “shock” temperatures. When the lights are temperature tested, they are placed in a chamber that drops and elevates the temperature very rapidly. This is to test such things as material expansion, thermal resistance, that they don’t melt etc..The lights have thermal cutouts for operation and the test is to ensure durability and quality.

regards


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## lumenjunkie (Aug 3, 2005)

hey Rhino90 - does the head swivel like the ACRO's?


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## Rhino90 (Aug 4, 2005)

Lumenjunkie, no the head does not swivel like the x990 which was a point of weakness if you happen to drop it. I will have more pictures uploaded tonight with the lights next to the x990. One major difference between the x990 and the Rayzor’s is the weight and feel in the hand. You can EDC the Rayzors easier than a Maglite 6D and they feel much more balanced than the x990. Also due to re-enforcements made to the housing of the Rayzorbeam, it’s weight has gone up by ~600grams making it feel solid but by no means heavy at all. Mr Ted Bear will also receive one soon for his comparisons.


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## cue003 (Aug 4, 2005)

Looking forward to the pictures AND to Mr. Ted Bear receiving his light(s) for comparision.

Will he be getting both lights or just one?

Curtis


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## Rhino90 (Aug 4, 2005)

we will send him both, if he wants them that is...


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## That_Guy (Aug 4, 2005)

You mentioned earlier that boost mode only lasts 3 minutes to prevent it from accidently being left on and draining the battery. Is there a way to bypass this, eg holding down the boost button for 2 seconds? While the 3 minute limit is useful if the light is being used as a handheld torch, it would be nice to be able to use the light as an area light by putting it down and pointing it at the roof without having to keep reactivating boost mode.


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## JimH (Aug 4, 2005)

I agree 100%. Just this last weekend I used my Costco HID to light a whole campsite for over an hour by shining it at the back of my camper and letting the reflected light cover the campsite.

Given the capabilities of the Costco HID, if the Rayzorbeam can't operate at full power for more than a few minutes, that's a shame, and a deal breaker for me. Even my X990, with 2 batt packs will run 2 hr 20 min at full power (35w HID).

The Razorbeam has the advantage of small size, light weight, and ruggedness, but if it can't perform favorably with the $80 Costo light, what's the point - especially for an extra $800.


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## Rhino90 (Aug 4, 2005)

For those wondering why the Thor looks as bright as a candle, it's because I have set the camera to reduce exposure to better see the beams. Actual beams are much brighter. The tunnel is also painted matt black to reduce reflection and secondary illumination.

From these shots you should be able to see that even on "low" power, the Rayzors are capable to match up against the x990. The boost is timed for 3 minutes, but considering that on "low" it's still very bright for lighting up a campsite, you just need to press boost again WHEN you do need that extra bit. Remember run time is important for critical applications like military, rescue etc.. where usuability, weight and durability is important.


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## Burnt_Retinas (Aug 4, 2005)

Looking foward to the review by Mr TB. He's held a lot of HID's in those hands and will be honest in his opinion.

Chris


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## modamag (Aug 4, 2005)

Which picture have the Razorlite on low again?
I don't see it in the post, must be still /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/sleepy.gif


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## cue003 (Aug 4, 2005)

Modomag, you can see the Razorlite on low in the picture above.... it says RL Low. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Curtis


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## JimH (Aug 4, 2005)

I'm confused. First, is the Rayzorbeam pic showing Rayzorbeam on high or on low, and where is the oposite pic?





Second, concerning the specs:










Both lights have the same input voltage, operating current, and max wattage output (50w), but the RL is rated for max light of 5000 lumens and the RB is rated for 3500 lumens. Let's see - two bulbs with the same wattage, but the one with the larger reflector puts out less light than the one with the smaller reflector





The RL on extended run puts out 35w and the RB on extended run puts out 28w, but both have the same run time (2.5 hrs). The specs for the RL battery and the RB battery are the same (14.4v, 6.6 Ah). The only explanation I can come up with is a less efficient bulb in the RB - is this true, and if so why?


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## modamag (Aug 4, 2005)

Ah I C now, RazorLite is similar to the Thor on low.

Jim, I think that might be a typo. 3500 lumens is for 35W /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thinking.gif
But then the efficacy is pretty high 100 lm/W, typically they're more like 90 lm/W at that level.


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## That_Guy (Aug 5, 2005)

Yeah the specs do seem rather strange. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif Notice the figures for "Beam Spread":
1) Both lights have the same spec despite having different sized reflectors.
2) There is a range of possible beam spread yet both lights are fixed focus.
3) 0.1 degrees is impossibly low and 15 degrees is rather high. The Maxabeam is 1 degree.

Regarding the lumen and runtime specs it wouldn't make any sense for the RB to use a less efficient bulb so its probably a typo. It would be good if Rhino could clarify the specs for the lights on both normal and boost mode.

The true specs should be similar to this:
<font class="small">Code:</font><hr /><pre>
Wattage Runtime Lumens
RB low 28 3h 2400 
RB high 50 1.5h 5000
RL low 35 2.5h 3200
RL high 50 1.5h 5000
</pre><hr />


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## JimH (Aug 5, 2005)

That_Guy,

I agree with you - the specs do not appear to be inconsistant. I'm sure there's something here that I am overlooking or don't understand. I'm willing to wait for Rhino to explain the appearant discrepancies.

It is hard to understand how a company that puts so much effort into getting their product military qualified can publish specifications that are so confusing, if not conflicting.


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## Rhino90 (Aug 5, 2005)

The explanation is going to be long but please stay with me.

Let me clear some things before I get into the “specs”. You will notice the quote marks. I assume a lot of you know that it is dangerous to go “spec” hunting when comparing products. Most manufacturers publish the specs as a marketing tool and almost pushing the limits of their own products when releasing the specs. So you find that a product will only match those specs under the ideal conditions they where tested at and not in practice. Many of you will also know after the experience of purchasing many lights that sometimes your favorite light is NOT the one with the apparently better specs. Lots of other factors go into making a product good and you really have to use one and to “test drive” one to know. The same with cars…etc

Earlier on *Sorka* wrote:

_“I don't know what everyone is so excited about. It's obvious this isn't an HID light. If it were, they'd be all over it in the brochure.”_ 

We don’t need to splash HID everywhere. Rayzorbeam does not push specs as a final say of how good our lights are, we let the user decide and a lot of them have, military, law enforcement or otherwise. They need a light that is super-bright, lightweight and robust and we know the Rayzorbeam meets these needs better than others.

The specs only seem confusing and conflicting depending on how much the end user knows about HID technology. Again, Rayzorbeam does not normally go into too much detail about the specs of their products, preferring to let people decide on how well it all ultimately works. The most important thing is that is works well and meets its design targets.

Concerning the specs. *That_Guy’s* little table would be great if the lights where incandescent and even though it shows good deduction on his part, it is simply wrong for HID technology and HID based lights.

Earlier *SATURN* wrote:

_“The increase in lumen output from 35W to 50W is approximately 20%”_ 

This shows a deeper understanding of HID.

In HID, lumen level is NOT a linear function to overall power but dependant on the tube inner pressure, gases and the metal salts in the lamp. Knowing this, 28 watts DOES NOT give 3 hours runtime and 2400 lumen while 50 watts gives 1.5 hours and 5000 lumen. This linear function of power to lumen level is incorrect for HID.

Example: 

35W electrical power gives 3500 lumen with lamp temperature of 850°C
Then
28-30W electrical power gives 3430 lumen with lamp temperature of 843°C

As you can see a drop of 5W does not affect lumen level that much at all. Knowing this it looks much more sensible and intelligent to design for 28-30W resulting in very little lumen drop. This does not achieve overall outright lumen output of the lamp, but is a more intelligent design. As you can see, Rayzorbeam does not just simply slap a HID lamp and ballast into a case as some manufacturers do. We design and account for all aspects and I hope it shows you a glimpse of how our company designs, military is a tough market to design for.

Also, I’ll give you another interesting fact. As you know, the Rayzors also have an IR filter option for military.

Take X as the amount of IR radiation.

35W IR ratio is X
28-30W IR ratio is X – 0.2%

Again, showing very little difference in IR output. This may not be important to some but very important for military. This is why you really cannot compare the Rayzors with the Costco HID. They are entirely different products. I’ll hate to see what happens if you drop the Costco in water or on land.

Now why don’t you see an increase run-time between the RB and RL 28 and 35 Watt difference? Theory is one thing but in practice you come across many other factors that only experience in design and manufacturing can show. First, our ballast accounts for battery and lamp condition continuously adjusting voltage and power. As batteries age and lamp life shortens, the ballast draws more current from the batteries to supply more voltage to the lamp. As a result wattage is not exactly fixed and can vary. A brand new lamp might need ~80 volts to maintain while an older lamp might need ~100 volts. Wattage will vary and a ~5Watt difference will not show a great difference in run-time. Sure there will be a difference, but Rayzorbeam will not go into listing run-times to the exact minute and seconds. Why, because even ambient temperature can have an effect and like I said above, outright specs mean little in the end.

5000 lumen lamp VS 3500 Lumen lamp? The choice of lamps was a matter of efficient design. With the RB having a bigger reflector, in usage it performs very similar to the 5000 lumen RL. With the bigger reflector of the RB we could use a lower lumen lamp whilst resulting in very similar output to the 5000 lumen lamp. Using the 3500 lumen lamp in the RB resulted in other advantages like lower temperatures resulting in lower weight etc….also remember that you don’t see a big difference in run time because the wattages are similar and is not a direct linear correlation to lumen level.

Lastly, those specs printed before the final lights finished. They were just to give an indication of performance. Also the photos show the RB with 6000k lamps. We previewed the lights on CPF while still in final stages of development. The only thing is that beam spread should read beam divergence.

I hope I have been helpful in trying to give an explanation. Rayzorbeam has been very open. I must say it is not the norm for manufacturers to go into this much detail on design choices for their products. They normally just throw out some specs. In any case, all will be known once the Rayzors get into peoples hands. 

More pics coming later tonight.

Thanks


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## JimH (Aug 5, 2005)

Rhino,

I'm not sure I understand everything you said, but I am more than satisfied with the answer. I really appreciate your taking the time to give us such a thorough explanation. You have exhibited patience above and beyond the call.

The quality of your responses gives me renewed faith in the quality of your lights.

I wish I could afford both, but I can't even afford one. That being said, I figure it's doable for one if I miss a meal here and there (I could really stand to lose the weight anyway). 

I only have one question left that is of any importance. You said "In any case, all will be known once the Rayzors get into peoples hands." My question is when can I get one in *my* hands. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif


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## Rhino90 (Aug 6, 2005)

JinH, I understand the need for imformation and I try to give as much as I can. I thank you for your interest and you will get your hands on one very soon.


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## cue003 (Aug 8, 2005)

Rhino90

In the bottom left hand pic above is there any explanation to the little "V" shaped cutout top and bottom in the RB head on shot? 

I think you had mentioned that soem changes has been made to the RB...such as added weight... have any of the above specs/brochures been updated to reflect this new information?

Looking good indead. The pictures are small but they do convey the message. Do you have the full size pictures somewhere else.... hosted on a website perhaps? Maybe someone here can host the larger pictures for closer examination.

Curtis


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## Rhino90 (Aug 10, 2005)

Please help complete this poll. 

Rayzorbeam Lamp Color Temperature Poll


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## Steelwolf (Aug 10, 2005)

Curtis, since Rhino hasn't answer your question definitively, I'll take a stab at answering your question. 

Typically, in an HID light, that V shaped cut out tends to be the shadow of the return wire. It probably shows up only in the RB because of the tighter focus. 

I hope that answers your question.


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## Rhino90 (Aug 10, 2005)

Sorry to Curtis and thanks to Steelwolf for answering. I was about to answer. Steelwolf is correct, the shadow is from the return wire on the HID lamp. You see this in most HID's and because of the RB's bigger reflector resulting in tighter focus you see this shadow. The specs sheet will definitely have corrections made to it. The weight increase is only about 600grams. All photo's and media will be hosted on our site soon. I also have a video clip of the light being dropped while operating and a demo of the flash button to post soon.


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## Sway (Aug 11, 2005)

[ QUOTE ]
*Rhino90 said:*
I'm glad to also say our units are currently under evaluation against MaxaBeams for use onboard navel ships/cost guards. The MaxaBeams don't have a chance and I'll get beamshots up by sometime next week.


[/ QUOTE ]

Rhino90


Did you ever get the beam shots comparing your Rayzorbeam to the Maxa Beam? The Maxa Beam is a long range throw and signaling tool how did your light compare to it?

Since you say the “The MaxaBeams don't have a chance” I would like to see some proof as to how your light is superior in throw and signaling. 

When it comes to spotlights we can be a tuff lot to deal with and need some proof to make us happy, give us something to chew on /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif 

Cheers
Kelly


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## Rhino90 (Aug 12, 2005)

During developments the Rayzorbeam was going to have throw. Making a light that throws means a big reflector and in the case of HID based lights, more power. Not impossible but our target was small and light for military and law enforcement. Having great throw also means making the beam very tight similar to the MaxaBeam. This reduces flood/spill greatly and didn’t make the light as usable. Our indented target did not want this. As you might know, MaxaBeam are also making a HID based light to address this. Having throw in certain markets is not as critical as to have a beam that covers more area to better SEE and identify. I think Kenshiro’s super-lights site is great in showing this.

So I concede that the Rayzors won’t have the outright throw of the MaxaBeam. The results of the test and tender will be posted soon as well. All I can say at this stage is that if you want throw, stay tuned…….


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## dwminer (Aug 29, 2005)

Any thing new to report with the Rayzorbeam?
Thanks Dave


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## senecaripple (Aug 29, 2005)

how much will these replacement batteries and bulb going to cost? would diy negate the warranty?


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## JimH (Sep 3, 2005)




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## Haesslich (Sep 4, 2005)

Man, I wish I could afford that...  I -want- one badly.


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## fleegs (Sep 4, 2005)

Is there a website yet?


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## man sun (Sep 5, 2005)

Mr Ted Bear said:


> Hello Rhino90
> 
> Welcome to CPF...
> 
> When will this light be available? Country of origin? Are you the manufacturer? How can I get one / or see one for Superlight Shootout #3


Hi, Please go:http://hi-fine.en.alibaba.com/group/50075513/Car_Lamp_Hid_Kits.html

you will find the hid specialist. He have all kind HID seaching lamps. He also developing the HID lamp on the top of the car.

If you need more informtion, please write to: [email protected]


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## ChrisDallas (Sep 5, 2005)

Count me in on a group buy please.

[email protected]


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## dwminer (Sep 5, 2005)

Looks like this RayzorBeam/lite 50w HID thing is going in a new direction. I still look forward to seeing more information on the light. Dave


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## Rhino90 (Sep 6, 2005)

sorry to all CPF'ers for the lack of updates. Just in the final leg. stay tuned...we have been so busy but I can tell you it will all be worth it. Just a final last minute reflector change

ChrisDallas you have been placed on the group buy.


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## PoliceScannerMan (Sep 6, 2005)

Forgive me for not going through pages and pages of posts, how much is the group buy for these lights?


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## LuxInTenebris (Sep 8, 2005)

Please put me down for the group buy.

Thank you.


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## Burnt_Retinas (Sep 8, 2005)

What's the go with the mansun link? Is Jiaxing Hifine Import & Export Co., Ltd. the manufacturer of the Razorbeam? Their searchlight looks very similar.

Chris


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## cue003 (Sep 8, 2005)

Man, I am a little lost as to where we stand with this light, what other changes have been made, how has these changes affected the cost and lastly is what is the answer to burnt retinas question above?


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## Rhino90 (Sep 8, 2005)

Burnt Retinas,

We have NO connection whatsoever with Jiaxing Hifine Import & Export Co., Ltd. It looks like an import/export company with NO affiliation with us. They are NOT the manufacturers of the Rayzorbeam or any of our products. Trainspotting is a fully Australian owned company and only they are authorized to manufacture the Rayzorbeam by its holding company in Australia.

Cue, the improvements are small modifications to make the Rayzors better with no affect on the cost. We anticipate within a week to 10 days to dispatch units to Mr. Ted Bear for evaluation.


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## Rhino90 (Sep 8, 2005)

LuxinTenebris,

Thanks and I have you down on the group buy list. You will be informed with more info soon.


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## Rhino90 (Sep 8, 2005)

Pre-lim naval test. The Rayzors are being torture tested by the Navy. They survived with no operational problems, just minor scratches. The final units are solid color HD plastic and not painted like the naval test units.


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## PoliceScannerMan (Sep 8, 2005)

Put me down for group buy. :rock: 

thanks,
PSM


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## ckcanon (Sep 8, 2005)

I've read this entire thread and have a few simple questions based on the information given:

- Trainspotting is the manufacturer of the Rayzorbeam; they have been in the lighting business for ~20 years; they don't have a website ????

- Many have asked but I haven't seen the answer: what is the name, address and phone number of the company selling the Rayzorbeam ????

- You're going to send how much money to someone with no web site, name, address, and phone number for the purchase of these lights with so many unanswered questions about description, specifications, performance, etc. ????:wow: 

Skeptical, cynical, & cautious (but not from Missouri)


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## Rhino90 (Sep 9, 2005)

PoliceScannerMan, I have you down, thanks.

ckcanon, we have been in lighting for over 20 years, but as Trainspotting we are a new branch of our parent company. Our other lighting businesses are focused at other markets. We don’t have a specific website for Rayzorbeam yet..it will be at www.rayzorbeam.com with contact details etc. You will see how the companies are linked etc. when the website is finished.


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## Burnt_Retinas (Sep 9, 2005)

Rhino,

Thanks for claryfying that. I couldn't figure why the post was there??? Possible they just wanted to expose their copy?

Thanks again and looking forward to the real deal becomming a reality.

Chris


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## ckcanon (Sep 9, 2005)

I'm trying to be a believer but did you mention the name of your parent company?


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## Sway (Sep 10, 2005)

Rhino90 said:


> Burnt Retinas,
> 
> Trainspotting is a fully Australian owned company and only they are authorized to manufacture the Rayzorbeam by its holding company in Australia.
> .




Ok it's an Australian owned company, and the holding company is in Australia thats all good  Would you please tell us what country the lights are manufactured in?

Later
Kelly


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## Rhino90 (Sep 10, 2005)

The Rayzorbeam is primarily Australian. Final assembly is in Melbourne, Australia. The electronics were designed and manufactured in Australia and will be moved to Singapore for mass production with Trainspotting overlooking all aspects of manufacturing and quality control. Plastics, moldings and materials are manufactured by Trainspotting in Hong Kong before being shipped to Australia for final assembly. The front window and reflector are also made in Australia.

Sway, I assume you are interested in the country of manufacture because of quality concerns? If so I assure you that wherever the lights are made we still have to make it military approved, and I think this says a lot more about the quality and reliability of our lights more than country of manufacture. Winning any contract, let alone any military/navy tender takes and requires a lot. As you can see by the pictures, the Rayzors are tested to the limits of operational design. 

Again, please wait until the website is up and our full company details will be revealed, including our parent and holding companies


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## ckcanon (Sep 10, 2005)

> *Rhino90: *5/21/05
> _We don't have a website YET..so details on contact info will be up then._


 


> *Rhino90: *5/26/05
> _We are an Australian company. More info on the company will be on the website when it's up._


 



> * Rhino90:* 5/27/05





> _Company information will be up on the new website. It will detail our history as well_


 



> *Rhino90:* 9/8/05





> _we have been in lighting for over 20 years, but as Trainspotting we are a new branch of our parent company. Our other lighting businesses are focused at other markets. We don’t have a specific website for Rayzorbeam yet..it will be at __www.rayzorbeam.com__ with contact details etc. You will see how the companies are linked etc. when the website is finished._


 


> *Rhino90: 9/10/05*
> _Again, please wait until the website is up and our full company details will be revealed, including our parent and holding companies_


 
I don't understand why your parent company name and details are a secret. Robert Kleinhans of Peak Beam posted his full name, title, company name, and phone number on this forum. You have declined *six* times to give similar information about your identity. It seems contradictory to try to introduce, market, and sell a new and innovative product without revealing even the name of the manufacturer. And not "Trainspotting" - you said they were a 


> _branch_


, an organizational level that would not appear in a search of registered companies. If your parent company 


> _have been in the lighting business for over 20 years doing high end products_


 their name must be fairly well known and hardly a secret.

Do you expect CPF members to send you $80,000. (100 lights x $800 ea) without being able to confirm your company's existence?

*   What is your full name, title, company address and phone number?*


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## MongoMadness (Sep 10, 2005)

I hate to say it but I have to agree with the point that ckcanon is making. This has all the hallmarks of a well-executed scam. 

I'm going to hold onto my money until they prove they are legitimate. WAKE UP PEOPLE! If you just want to throw your money away please send it to me. 

Let me tell you about the light you need to consider buying. I've developed a nuclear torch that is at least 3.14159 times brighter than the Sun. I've worked on nuclear torches for military applications for almost 20 years - well actually my parent company has. 

This torch is going to be called the Solar Flare. It will be capable of being carried in one hand as an EDC light. A diffuser is available and it has infinite brightness settings. It will operated on one CR123A battery and a sufficient supply of plutonium for 666 years on it's highest brightness setting.

Pictures and beamshots to come. The light will be available in several colors and finishes and believe me it will look REALLY COOL! 

PM me for a chance to get in on a special CPF group buy. The first 25 CPFers who send me $1,500 to my Swiss bank account via Paypal (ABSOLUTELY no credit cards) will be eligible for savings of more than 50% off of the retail price. If you can't afford one you can start sending me payments. Any amount will do....

I'm not trying to threadjack. I just want to make CPFers aware that as soon as my beamshots are available they will want to send their money to me.

I will start a new thread as soon as our website is up and running which will be very soon.


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## PoliceScannerMan (Sep 10, 2005)

ckcanon said:


> *   What is your full name, title, company address and phone number?*



Yeah what is it, that won't hurt. Can you get in trouble for telling us? If so just say so, you have been standoffish. You cant blame some for thinking that this could quite possibly be a nicley planned heist. It wouldnt be hard to put up a website that is not legit. 

$80,000 is a lot of jack. I also urge evryone on this group buy including myself to withhold payment until we are ABSOLUTLEY SURE this is for real.

Which I'm sure it is not a scam, just a misunderstanding.  

-PSM


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## mattheww50 (Sep 10, 2005)

I don't know how legit they are or are not. Unfortunately it is very common in Australia for companies to be less than legitimate. even with the best of intention. They often operate with smoke and mirrors. One customer I had decided that work on his boat was more important than paying for the goods he purchased.

First of all most Australian Companies don't trade under their own name. There is nothing dishonest or dishonorable about that. Companies are very messy and time consuming things to set up, so there are actually companies in Australia that maintain a large number of 'shelf' registered companies. You pick one with a charter that is somewhere near what your are looking for, buy it from the holding company, who notifies that authorities that it has become active. Saves a whole lot of grief, but you end up with screwball names, generally the company will trade under a name that may mean something, so Ancox Pty Ltd may trade as Cyber Computer Services.

What you do want to do is find out the real name of the company, and then get an Australian Securities Commission (ASC) report. That is equivalent to pulling the SEC details of a US corporation. It will tell you how it is capitalized, who owns the shares etc. Beware of $2 and $10 companies however. The tax laws in Australia made it very had to have reasonable capitalization as a private company. So many company are capitalized at something absurd.. $2-$10, hence are sometimes called $2 companies. The money to develop and build products is often in the form of loans from the owners and others. Debt to equity ratios can exeed 1000:1. That way if the company goes belly up, they have a claim on the assets, as share holders, they are hosed. I would be wary of placing advance orders for a product from a a company with very limited capitalization. Anything goes wrong, and there are no resources to cover any unexpected continugencies. Company goes down, and so does your prepayment. I have lost a lot money over the years doing business with companies that appeared to be major players. They were major players, however they didn't have any money, so when things go tough, poof..(and kiss the $100K they owed you good by)... I have been burned more than once. I have even seen the secured creditors get screwed because they failed to notice they assets they had security in didn't really exist!!

In the USA, companies fail because accounting frauds are discovered, such as Enron, MCI... In Australia, the companies fail, and then the frauds are uncovered (one-tel, HIH, VDC, Quintix, Bond...) The level of transparency the SEC regulations enforce in the USA makes the ASC regulation look like a bad joke...

My advice, is obtain the ASC information, and then decide what risks are prudent and which are not. i've seen a lot of people who didn't ask, and took a serious beating. As far as criminal prosecution is concerned, accounting frauds that don't involve publicly traded companies, are not matters of interests to the Department of Public Prosectuion.

And my Experience is that most Australian companies located in Victoria believe they have a G-D given right to screw their suppliers and creditors (Yes, they guy with the boat was from Victoria, as was Computer Plus Engineering Services, and Miden Pacific (Sucessor to Control Data Australia).


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## cue003 (Sep 10, 2005)

Interesting point of view. The light(s) are supposed to be sent to a couple of our very own respected members for review. Maybe then we will know if it is real or vaporware. Until then nothing has been asked for as far as money by RazorBeam so we should wait a little longer before screaming murder. 

Curtis


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## NikolaTesla (Sep 10, 2005)

I will wait till they are around to be rated and checked by CPF and others. I never have gotten in upfront group pay that big of $$$ from an unknown. Yes sure I have from KNOWN CPF builders but not even a WEB site yet? My advise is wait and see and if it is what it claims to be (not before) buy one then. Prototypes are one thing but production is another. I was interested in the PowerLight and got one. Mark would only take an order when he was ready to ship. AE lighting also was a known entity. I would like one of these Rayzors and am quite a HID/Xenon arc light enthusiast but will wait for the goods and let someone else be the first one on the block to buy one.


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## PoliceScannerMan (Sep 10, 2005)

Well Rhino90, were waiting..... :sleepy: :sleepy: :sleepy: :sleepy: :wave:


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## Dynacolt (Sep 10, 2005)

I tend to agree so far with people's scepticism on this. Mattheww50 is correct about the Australian company proces, but I would like to believe (and it is my experience) that Australian companies and individuals are pretty honest for the most part.

I live in Victoria and I also have some contact with, and knowledge of, local military manufacturers and their processes ie military-tendered products are generally not available to the public, as the tender relates to a company manufacturing parts to the (eg) DSTO standard, as designed by DSTO (The Australian Defence Science & Tech Organisation). 

I have been concerned about the openness and validity of info, particularly in regard to the the claim the company have been in business for 20 years. I'm not sure which company this is??

Reuven Avital (CPF profile: Rayzorbeam) states he is the original maker of the Rayzorbeam, and Rhino (Sophat) backs this up stating Reuven is the "founder, president and chief designer of the Rayzorbeam".

As of late last year, Reuven was the president of Ozygen Corporation, of Collingwood, Victoria (Google search "ozygencorp" and view the cached pages). They were involved in ozone-related water treatment technology, and beauty products, and expressed that they were expanding rapidly. However, the website is now reduced to a home page and the other pages remain only in the Google cache, from what I can discern. Ozygencorp was registered as a company on 24/09/2003. Reuven originally had his ozygencorp.com email address in his CPF profile but has since removed this.

There has been no response to questions about the NATA testing, and the responses I have seen to questions do not appear to contain new or exclusive information.

All that being said, if this product is legit, then I wish I had the funds to play with one, and I offer a sincere apology for my scepticism to all at Rayzorbeam.

I still believe Sophat and Reuven need to be more open and up front with their information, as we here at CPF can be difficult critics and are well used to picking apart any newly-offered product, as could be seen with HDS' EDC lights and especially other HID lights, where we are all wanting to compare every minute detail and difference.

Dave.


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## Rhino90 (Sep 11, 2005)

Reply to the questions see below:

Ozygen Corporation is the Holding Company , the company has several investments Globally and due to overall consolidation at the last few months the sites are being reconstructed hence the delay in info ,we work around the clock to finalize production and we understand your needs for information since we tend to scrutinize every new supplier ourselves. Companies owned by Ozygen Corp and associated with it listed below.

R.B.Y.T .advanced technologies Ltd Israel R&D + production and Rotherfield Ltd Hong Kong raw material sourcing and marketing Covering , Defense products e.g Ballistic protection , Illumination accessories and products. Ozygen Corporation is also Licenced by Corner Shot for sales in Cambodia ,Vietnam , and New Zealand.
Radnage Ltd Hong Kong Industrial and domestic production of OZONE Water treatment systems and other Ozone applications in Veterinary and beauty industry .
Trainspotting Ltd Hong Kong and Australia manufacturers of high intensity illumination products e.g Rayzorbeam,Rayzorlite and others to come.
Reuven Avital is a Low Current Electronics Eng Graduated at Ben Gurion University in Israel and is a member of the Institution of engineers Australia he is the President of Ozygen Corporation and is also a current Director and a major share holder at Vector Enterprises Ltd and Vector Scientific Ltd Australia .
Vector Enterprises Ltd is the development incubator of the Rayzors and other products and was responsible for the original design of Vectorbeam in Australia 15 years ago based on the 300W / 500W / 750W Cermax lamp and is currently manufactured by Vector Scientific Ltd which has a sister Company named Gyrocam Systems LLC in Sarasota Florida producing airborne gimbaled systems including the airborne Vectorlight made in Australia and is a Helicopter mounted gimbaled Search light .We hope that this information is more then sufficient as to the questions regarding the lighting experience.
Once the sites are reconstructed the links including all details will be available to the public , we have not displayed the Details since we are not ready to launch the new product range , marketing collateral etc including large scale production setups had to be established first. The comments regarding the pricing have been taken into consideration , we would like to know from you at CPF what will be a reasonable end user purchase price for a similar product but with lower mechanical specs level that could bring the costs down as we are trying to reach the man in the street with the new product range


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## MongoMadness (Sep 11, 2005)

*S C A M A L E R T*

We still don't know your full name, title, phone number, etc........ 

S C A M A L E R T

S C A M A L E R T

S C A M A L E R T


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## Steelwolf (Sep 11, 2005)

*Re: S C A M A L E R T*

MongoMadness: We don't know yours either.  A little respect and courtesy would be nice.

Personally, I like how Rhino and Rayzorbeam seem to have tried to be open. They have told us a lot about their product and have answered a lot of our questions. I think we can give them a little bit of leeway. 

Afterall, what have we committed except our time to read and post on this thread? 

They haven't asked us for any down payment or booking fee, so we are not paying for vapourware. 

They intend to send units to several of our own highly trusted and noteworthy forum members for testing before releasing the final product for sale, so we can get an independant opinion on the quality of the product.

They intend to have the website up and running with full company details before releasing the product for sale, so we can investigate them to our hearts content before we commit to a purchase.

The main point being that we don't put down any money until we are totally satisfied that the company and the product are legit. However, if they start asking for money before the previous conditions are met, then we can start posting "scam alert" messages and blackmarking them. Before then however, such behaviour would be real unneighbourly.

So let's all play nice, be reasonable, friendly and neighbourly. 'K?


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## Kiessling (Sep 11, 2005)

*Re: S C A M A L E R T*

Yepp.
Please calm down and tone down your posts, guys. There is a fine line being crossed in this thread, and we do not want it to be closed.
bernhard


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## MongoMadness (Sep 11, 2005)

Steelwolf: Since I'm not trying to sell you an $850 flashlight please forgive me if I don't share my contact information with you. 

Who appointed you the judge of what is respectful, courteous, reasonable, friendly, and unneighborly? Why do you feel the need to attack me personally? 

We've got a "company" here who has been making commitments about a "product" since May 21st. Very few of the commitments that they have made have been proven to be true. 

Maybe they jumped the gun by sharing information with us before they should have? Maybe they aren't experienced enough to accurately predict timelines on this type of project? 

What their problem is doesn't interest me. What does interest me is that they have shown a pattern of behavior that suggests to me that they might not always be trust-worthy when posting.

They've been intending to have a website up and running since May but all they've been able to accomplish is a single page. We were told to expect a website in June. On 06/29 we were informed that it was almost ready. As of today there is still nothing there of ANY value. 

Perhaps S C A M A L E R T is a bit much. I'm trying to suggest to our members not to just rush forward. I'm trying to suggest that it may be in their best interest to investigate all of the information in this thread before proceeding. I'm trying to suggest to them that this thread contains many of the hallmarks of a well-planned scheme to defraud people of their money. I felt that the method I used was as efficient and effective a method as any. 

It was NOT my intent to "cross any fine lines."


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## dg (Sep 11, 2005)

I must say Mongo, I am sceptical of your own motives as this is only your 5th post, and 3 of these are 'anti-razorbeam'.


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## MongoMadness (Sep 11, 2005)

Touche' dg!

Good point. Any skeptic is a friend of mine.


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## rugup (Sep 11, 2005)

Well, theres plenty of info posted that can be followed up on.. Try the vectorbeam site http://www.vectorbeam.com/about.html , which referes directly back to the "Research head offices are located in our Cheltenham facility in Melbourne, Australia". Then note that one of the pictures on that site is the same that Rhino has posted into this thread relating to one of there other 500W products. Which is presumably the http://maxavision.net/new_page_3.htm

So, if anyone cares to follow it up just contact vectorbeam through there website, or people selling their product, as they must be affiliated with the same people!


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## Dynacolt (Sep 11, 2005)

Rhino,
Thanks for your comprehensive reply. It looks like you have some solid research partners in the building of your lights. I have no problem with the cost of the light if it is an original product with all that technology in it (but it's stilll out of my price range, unfortunately).
And thanks to rugup for your link to the Vectorbeam site, that is what I really wanted to see, very helpful.

Dave.


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## Rhino90 (Sep 11, 2005)

OZYGEN CORPORATION
Full name : Reuven Avital
Title: President/CTO
Number of employees 21
Telephone number : +61 3 9419 0088 hunting
Fax:  +61 3 9419 0223
Cell 61 433 416583
email: [email protected]
email: 

We are not ready to take orders yet , and an initial website will be up and running towards this weekend Hopefully.
just Please --Hang Tan.


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## cue003 (Sep 11, 2005)

Looking forward to the website.

Curtis


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## Steelwolf (Sep 12, 2005)

MongoMadness: I apologise. I wasn't attacking you. I did feel that SCAMALERT might have been a little much, especially from one with so few posts. Dejavu images of Trolls. Your subsequent posts suggests differently and I do hope this is the case. I apologise again if I have misunderstood your prior posts and your intentions and made it seem like I was attacking you.


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## cue003 (Sep 13, 2005)

I wonder how much longer before the test units go to our CPF members for review. I am anxious to hear their reports.


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## Rhino90 (Sep 13, 2005)

we have made contact by telephone with Mr Ted Bear. Not too much longer....


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## Mr Ted Bear (Sep 13, 2005)

Want to let everyone know that I did have a hour long conversation with Reuven last night....

I was "invited" to a do what every I please with the lights.... drop em, toss em, torture them.... beat the heck out of them.... I was given some specifics about added features of RL/RB that should give them the edge over their competition, but I refrain from a discussion at this time til they can be evaluated.


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## PoliceScannerMan (Sep 14, 2005)

FANTASTIC! It seems we have made some progress and I'm looking foward to this light again!!!

-PSM


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## PoliceScannerMan (Sep 16, 2005)

Any updates??? :candle: :candle: :candle: 

Any at all??? :wave: :wave: :wave: 

I'm watching...    

-PSM


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## Vee3 (Sep 17, 2005)

*New products...*

Certainly something to think about (Investing in a new product). As one who has worked for a well established company that started up new divisions to launch new products, I'm a bit sceptical.

One example - My previous company (I worked there for 13 years up until earlier this year) manufactured high-speed inspection equipment for bottled and canned products. They bought out a small company that manufactured circuit board drilling machinery, hoping to develop and market the machines. Long story short, the machinery never made it to market. After much investment, several prototypes, much fanfare and interest from potential customers, things just didn't work out for several reasons. The whole project was shelved and remains on indefinite hold. We gambled and lost.

My point is, even an established company can make mistakes. Nothing wrong with trying to come up with a new product. Many fail though. Even Howard Hughes had his Spruce Goose. Lots of companies that are hoping to cash in on "war bucks" invest everything in that direction hoping to make it big. If the product is not accepted, it's rare that the investment can be made up by going to the civilian market.


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## Rayzorbeam (Sep 18, 2005)

Hi there,
An initial site is up and running , it is incomplete with several updates ,like PDF's , Video , NATA Test results , Video's and more stills, on line orders etc will be updated soon.
Units will be sent for evaluation to Mr. Ted Bear this Thursday
Sep 22nd .


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## cue003 (Sep 18, 2005)

Great news and congrats on the start of the website.

I hope Mr. Ted Bear gets both a RayzorBeam and a RayzorLite to evaluate.

Glad to see things are still moving forward.

I am hoping Mr. Ted Bear will provide several pictures of the lights for size next to other lights, held in hands, turned on, turned off, weigh distribution etc etc etc. I have seen his other reviews so I am sure it will be very complete and extremely honest. I can't wait. His views may very well help push me over the edge as to which version to get... the Lite or the Beam.

Curtis


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## cue003 (Sep 18, 2005)

Just so you know, your pictures only show up when I right click on a picture. It then pops up in the screen. If I do a regular click, I get no picture. Interesting. Sort of backwards operation.  

Very good start to the site though.

The size in the hand is great would be even better when you add the same person in the same clothes carrying the RazorLite in their hands for a fair comparision without any changes to the surroundings.

Just some feedback.

Curtis


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## Rayzorbeam (Sep 18, 2005)

Thanks cue003,

In the Gallery there are more then 30 images and it takes time to load , once loaded the right clicking operates, other material will be posted soon.


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## dwminer (Sep 19, 2005)

Is the group buy still on for the RayzorBeam/RayzorLite's? If so I would like to be included for a RayzorBeam. At one time there was a post by Rhino90 which quoted a special price for CP members. It looks better and better all the time.
Dave
http://www.rayzorbeam.com/


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## Rhino90 (Sep 19, 2005)

The group buy is still on but is reaching its limited quantities. Some might notice the special launch price on the web that will also run alongside the CPF special. Members on the group buy list will be givin final information after the units are reviewed so they can decide to go ahead.

Regards

-R


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## Grox (Sep 20, 2005)

Put me down for the GB list, provisional on Mr Ted Bear's review! I guess since we're all in Melb, I'd appreciate seeing it first (demo).


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## JohnLev (Sep 20, 2005)

I would be interested in buying a Rayzorlite after the test results are posted . Your information has induced me to consider paying more than double what I was prepared to pay for my first HID flashlight before reading this thread ! 
I am particularly interested in the 2nd version with the switched narrow throw/wide beam .Would you agree to sell the second "edition" at the same price if payment is made in full at the time other members pay for their 1st version models ?
I appreciate there will be some delay before the 2nd version is available for distribution .....any guess re timing ? 
Thanks


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## Rhino90 (Sep 20, 2005)

The upcomming version will not only have the switch spot/wide but other extras as well. The pricing and timming have not been set at this early stage as we are still concentrating on these lights. The next verion will also have slightly different pricing so buyers have the choice of paying for the options/features they want.

Regards

-R


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## cue003 (Sep 20, 2005)

Rhino90 said:


> The upcomming version will not only have the switch spot/wide but other extras as well. The pricing and timming have not been set at this early stage as we are still concentrating on these lights. The next verion will also have slightly different pricing so buyers have the choice of paying for the options/features they want.
> 
> Regards
> 
> -R



Version 2 sure does sound very interesting. Hmm... I sure don't need 2 of these so I would be interested to hear more on Version 2. I know the ETA is way out but I really have no problem waiting for it... especially at this price point.

These lights aren't the type you just "throw" on the B/S/T forum and they sell. At this purchase point you buy it and forget it. Or so I think. Therefore I only want to do this purchase once.

Curtis


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## Rhino90 (Sep 20, 2005)

upcomming versions are still in the far future as we have not even finished launching this current version. As with any product, there are always going to be new versions and improvments. The cycle won't even end at version 2, there will be 3 or 4 or another new line altogether. I mention version 2 because as a company we are commited to always improve and develope. You can wait if you like but I assure you after version 2 there will be a 3 or new version...then you wait again....

Regards

-R


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## That_Guy (Sep 21, 2005)

Approximately how far off is version 2? 6 months? A year?


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## Rhino90 (Sep 21, 2005)

at this stage we cannot put a time frame on it. We need to look at many things including the current RB and RL. 

Regards

-R


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## Rayzorbeam (Sep 21, 2005)




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## Rayzorbeam (Sep 21, 2005)

Rayzors with some various coated filters. 
As per Cue003's requests for more hand shots with the same person with the Rayzorlite in his hand for size comparisons.


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## Rayzorbeam (Sep 21, 2005)




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## Grox (Sep 21, 2005)

Lookin' good, lookin' good. The cases look quite sturdy.

I'll still be interested in seeing the thing in person and reading Ted's evaluation of the light first though.


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## That_Guy (Sep 21, 2005)

Is there a diffusion filter to spread the beam out?

Compared to the RL, the RB looks much bigger in these photos than I imagined from the spec sheets. How do the two compare in useability? Which one do you find easier to carry?


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## cue003 (Sep 21, 2005)

Rayzorbeam, thank you very much for those shots. The shot with the Rayzorlite was the one I was looking for. 

Great shots. What are the different coatings on the lens? What are they used for?

Curtis


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## Rayzorbeam (Sep 21, 2005)

Thanks ,
The filters are thin film coated and were made for a specific Forensic requirment which we had to supply and will be posted at a later stage (month or two).
IR filters will be posted shortly and at stage two they will have (push to open) hinges .


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## Rhino90 (Sep 21, 2005)

That_Guy,

Both lights are nicely balanced and they both feel good in the hand. They are of very similar weight also.

Regards

-R


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## Rhino90 (Sep 29, 2005)

I am pleased to inform CPF members that the evaluation units for Mr. Ted Bear are packed and ready. They will be dispatched tomorrow morning via DHL. 

Consignment/Air Waybill number is:	159 9819 351

I’m sure all members are anxiously waiting for Mr. Ted Bear’s evaluation as I am.

Kind Regards

Sophat Ngim


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## cy (Sep 29, 2005)

just read this entire thread and it looks for real and interesting!


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## MrWonderful1961 (Sep 29, 2005)

Is it too late to get in on the Group Buy?

If not, please count me in as well (please, please, please!)

Thanks in advance,
Jim


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## Mr Ted Bear (Sep 29, 2005)

sophat and reuven

at the ready... three years ago, i started a tradition of getting togther with my closest cpf friends on/near my birthday... it's shootout sushi time !!


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## Rhino90 (Sep 29, 2005)

Group buy is still on but will close shortly as our web specials will kick in soon...I have you on my list Mr Wonderful1961.

Also tracking of Mr Ted Bear's package will not be on DHL's system straight away, it takes a little time after they pick it up from us.

Regards

-R


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## kakster (Sep 29, 2005)

I've been meaning to add a HID to my collection for ages, please count me in for the group buy.


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## cue003 (Sep 29, 2005)

Rhino90 said:


> I am pleased to inform CPF members that the evaluation units for Mr. Ted Bear are packed and ready. They will be dispatched tomorrow morning via DHL.
> 
> Consignment/Air Waybill number is:	159 9819 351
> 
> ...



I am anxiously waiting the review.  Hopefully the review will be extremely positive and I will be getting a GREAT Christmas gift this year.

Curtis.


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## Rhino90 (Sep 29, 2005)

DHL package is now able to be tracked.

-R


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## Mr Ted Bear (Sep 30, 2005)

according to dhl, two business days which means tuesday


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## Rayzorbeam (Sep 30, 2005)

Have Sushi FUN , we are looking forward to the review.

Reuven


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## Andreas (Oct 4, 2005)

I would like in on a group buy also??


thanks

Andreas


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## Sway (Oct 5, 2005)

Delivered on 10/3/2005 11:35 am


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## NikolaTesla (Oct 5, 2005)

Well?


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## Mr Ted Bear (Oct 5, 2005)

The package that was offered at time of delivery was litrally destroyed. I had no choice but to decline it's receipt, less I was to assumre responsibility for what was left (junk).

The folks at Razorbeam are aware of the situation, and are working on replacing the damaged units...


But what the heck, I had an enjoyable sushi diner with some of my best CPF friends last night, and got some terriffic gifts... a boosted version Ken 3 (7000 lumen), a very special limited edition SF Porcupine L6 , and equally rare, a "prototype" light from Major Weiner himself.


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## CLHC (Oct 5, 2005)

Mr Ted Bear said:


> The package that was offered at time of delivery was literally destroyed. . .what was left (junk).


 
Hopefully when the time comes for the customers who got in on the group buy receive theirs—it doesn't arrive at their doorstep in the condition as that of Mr. Ted Bear indicated.

Maybe better and sturdier packaging is in order? I'm sure it will. This also can serve as a test bed for how the Rayzors stand-up to abuse [in transit], being that it's also marketed for military use (AUS?). Much like which gun manufacture can sustain long term abuse at rental ranges (spanning the NWH). One will therefore know the quality built ones over time. . .

Nevertheless, looking forward with eager anticipation for the Rayzors debut here in the U.S.A. ! ! !


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## PoliceScannerMan (Oct 5, 2005)

Mr. Ted Bear,

Did you look in the box, was the light really, ah hem, junk???

Or was the box really squished and you didnt want to open it??

I'm sorry, just curious, could you please give more details about the condition of the light???

Thanks,

PSM


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## Mr Ted Bear (Oct 5, 2005)

For 15 years, I ran an auto parts warehouse central distribution center, amd for the last 18 years I ha ve ownd my own busuness, and received freight daily... I have seen more freight than most !!!

Just a guess, but the box I saw fell of a truck somewhere and was then run over by who knows what. The box was held together with tons of tape and shrink wrap, so no way to check the contents, or if all the contents were actually inside.

So rather than the head ache of broken? and/or missing? lights, I accepted/declined shipment, which the driver recommended. I would have loved to open the box, salvage what I could, and send the rest back, but that was not a option


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## cue003 (Oct 6, 2005)

oh well, the wait continues.


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## Haesslich (Oct 6, 2005)

Guess we can scratch DHL off the list of 'people who won't destroy your products in shipping'.


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## Sway (Oct 6, 2005)

OH MAN!  

What bad luck, may be Rhino90 can tell us the condition of it when and if he gets it back now that it's been DHL tested :sick2:

Later
Kelly


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## MongoMadness (Oct 6, 2005)

The mysterious wait continues... We should have had it carbon dated to determine if it had been run over before it was given to DHL or after...

For the asking price it should probably be offered with a lifetime warranty - no questions asked... I know that Surefire would have happily sent out a replacement.


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## GJW (Oct 6, 2005)

MongoMadness said:


> I know that Surefire would have happily sent out a replacement.



I've had to wait months for replacement SureFires.
They might have been happy about it but I wasn't.


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## mattheww50 (Oct 6, 2005)

DHL... Documents Hopelessly Lost, Don't Have it,Left it. There are some places where DHL does a good job, because of political considerations, no one else can. So if you are shipping to the Middle East, use DHL. Otherwise, find someone else. In the Middle East, DHL generally has the only courier import licenses (Fedex and UPS don't like to admit it, but they have freight licenses, and that can cause huge handling delays at certain times of year).

On Long Haul services for the most part Fedex and UPS fly their own freight. I know that to Australia, DHL buys space from QANTAS (as does Fedex, but Fedex also flies their own freighter in at least twice a week. I used to frequently buy space of Fedex flight 77 (Fedex,DHL and UPS are also in the airfreight business, and at various time I have bought space from all of them). UPS is probably the best, but they aren't easy to do business with unless you want to buy a full pallet position (several thousans pounds). 

At the moment I have no kind words for DHL. On a recent shipment first it was delayed 3 days because of problems they admitted at their hub. Let just say the integration of the Airborne and DHL hub didn't go very well.

After it was already 4 days late it was misrouted (illegally I would add, it was hazmat, so the rules for carriage are messy, but ended up flying to a non-hazmat certified DHL center more than a 1000 miles from where it was going, on a non-hazmat certified aircraft with a non-hazmat certified crew. Having recognized they screwed up, they then proceeded to send it ground, since they had no hazmart certified aircraft from that center. They actuallly put in email messages statements that their own tracking records subsequently showed to be not small lies, but big ones. In the end it only took 14 days to get from Virginia to Arizona........

Fedex frankly isn't perfect, but they handle a lot more high value freight than DHL does, and consequently tend to be more careful. Several of the DHL delivery people I have met over the years were working for DHL because Fedex wouldn't hire them....


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## Rayzorbeam (Oct 7, 2005)

Hi Guys 

We expect to receive the damaged package early in the upcoming week , a formal investigation as to what has taken place is in process currently by DHL (by the way it was sent in an official Brand new DHL Jumbo Box) , once we will be in receipt of the damaged products and have a clear understanding as to what has taken place , we will update you . At the moment nothing is ruled out.
At the meantime we have taken action regarding the replacement units and after the arrival of the damaged package a new set will be on its way back for evaluation at Mr. Ted Bear.


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## dbedit (Oct 7, 2005)

I would also like in the group buy PM sent


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## Haesslich (Oct 7, 2005)

MongoMadness said:


> The mysterious wait continues... We should have had it carbon dated to determine if it had been run over before it was given to DHL or after...
> 
> For the asking price it should probably be offered with a lifetime warranty - no questions asked... I know that Surefire would have happily sent out a replacement.



Oh no, they had to keep Ted E. Bear from reviewing the light, so they sent it out in a crushed box, so that he wouldn't dare open it to find a flat tire inside instead...

I dunno, I'd say it'd be easier to just say the light got 'lost in transit, rather than send a crushed box out. Even the pickup drones that end up doing some of these pickups aren't THAT oblivious (noticing a box was crushed and then shipping it anyways), at least not when they're at the pickup sites. The guys who move the things from the trucks to the planes may not feel obligated to refuse the light if it's crushed, but even UPS or postal workers aren't THAT apathetic. :thinking:

Now, if the NEXT package goes via FedEx and arrives crushed, or gets lost in shipping, then I might smell a scam, but until then, I'd have to suggest that DHL really screwed up the delivery... especially as they don't have the best rep.


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## NikolaTesla (Oct 7, 2005)

:scowl: :sick2:     Whats next?


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## mattheww50 (Oct 8, 2005)

The reason companies try to deliver packages even if they know they are smashed to bits, is they hope the box is one of many that is delivered, and whoever signs for it doesn't notice one or more boxes have been smashed. If they send back the smashed boxed, they know they are going to have to pay up. If the deliver it, if nobody notices before signing, they are off the hook. It is a no lose situation. 

Since this is made in Australia, it isn't dutiable whether it is classed in 8513 or 8539 (both are covered in the FTA). Just make sure the declaration makes clear it was made in Australia (otherwise duty could be a much as 12.5% of value).


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## senecaripple (Oct 8, 2005)

applecare has a contract with dhl. i've sent my ibook numerous time with dhl with nary a problem! customer service is much better than ups, & fed ex. i've had lost parcels from both ups and fed ex. but dhl never an issue. 

this thread has turned into an interesting read! 

did the military accept the contract?

will mr. ted get to receive the light to review?

what did happen to the crushed package?

how long has this thread been on, and will the manufacturing and sales ever come to fruition?

to be continued........


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## PoliceScannerMan (Oct 8, 2005)

I don't know about other places, but the DHL drivers around here drive like bats out of hell!!!! Swirving, slamming on brakes, then they put the pedal to the metal when the light turns green.

Maybe the damn box just tumbled around in the van. 

Weve all seen Crocadile Dundee, the roads in Australia are all bumpy!!  

-PSM


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## lebox97 (Oct 8, 2005)

Rayzorbeam said:


> Hi Guys
> ... we have taken action regarding the replacement units and after the arrival of the damaged package a new set will be on its way back for evaluation at Mr. Ted Bear.



I don't understand why you are waiting until receipt of the damaged units/boxes back from DHL...
I would have immediately put another set of lights into a pelican case and shipped them out as soon as word was received from Ted Bear about the damage and delivery refusal????????????

PS: this is a good lesson: maybe a heavy duty DHL tested protective case should be included w/ every light? (or at least listed as an option) I presume the military would require it for every unit.


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## Mr Ted Bear (Oct 8, 2005)

lebox97

I can tell you why there is a delay in the re-shipment of the Rayors, but you may not like the answer.

There were a lot of "irregularities" with the shipment; the fact that the tracking number was posted here on CFP, and widely available for anyone's eyes may have been a factor.

For starters, when I was notified of the tracking number(ten days ago last Thurday night), I immediately notified DHL that I wanted the shipment held at the Van Nuys terminal; I knew my upcoming schedule, and I would not be around to accept the shipment.

Last Sautrday, when the package arrived at Los Angeles terminal (around 11am), I called DHL to find out if there was any possibility of picking up the package. I was told "NO", but not for the reason you might think. I was told the package had been inadverently rerouted back to Australia. DHL internal records showed the packeage heading back to Australia ????? Couldn't be.... I spent a half hour on the phone with the CSR person, seeking an expalnation but none. A "case" was opened

Later on in the afternoon, I called a second time, got the same BS story, and that it could take up to 48 hours for the "case" to be investigated.


On Sunday morning, I checked the DHL site, the package showed clearing customs in Los Angeles on Saturday around 7 pm. WTF? Another call to DHL... what happened to internal records showing the package on it's way back to Australia ? DHL denied any such records , and that I must have mis-understood the CSR person... yeah right, not once, but twice. Then I gave them the case number, and they had nothing to say... for a second time, I told them to hold the package at Van Nuys, and they told me that that information was in the file

On Monday mornig after I dropped off my son (8:10am), I called DHL to see if the package had arrived at Van Nuys. They told me "No, but to give it another half hour..." I told them to hold the package, and again they said no problem. So instead of turning "right" to go to DHL (five minutes away), I went directly to my morning appointment .

When I checked the DHL site later Monday moring, I found that not only had the package been scanned and loaded at 7:50am, but that DHL had also attempted delivery at 10:18am.


Wednesday night around diner time, DHL called and asked if I had received the package, and now, just checking the DHL site, there's an odd ball entry, showing the package departing LAX four days later on October 7th at 4am.

Again, very strange. and no way to prove it, but it's almost like DHL was instructed to either lose the package, or render the contents inoperable....


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## Icebreak (Oct 8, 2005)

Very fishy, Ted E. Bear and I don't mean the Rayzorbeam guys.


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## Sway (Oct 8, 2005)

Jeff,

That’s crazy, I've had the package from hell before that looked like it had be run through a trash compactor (several times) with lose parts scooped up and left at my door, shipped from just a few states away.

I hope your documentation will help Rhino90 and the Razor crew recover their loss and get a replacement on the way, I’m still anxiously awaiting a review. Thanks for keepings us updated :thumbsup:

Later
Kelly


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## Rayzorbeam (Oct 9, 2005)

Hi to all on the forum,

I elected again to post here in order to satisfy those of you that really believe in the existence of Rayzors.
What has happened is not totally clear, but from DHL we have a report that reads like that.-----------
Good afternoon Reuven,
>
> There are some atypical scans showing on this shipment but from what I can
> see it has passed through customs clearance in Los Angeles and should be
> delivered on 03/10/05 (local time).
>
> Should you require any further information, please reply to.

For that reason we do not wish to ship a new set prior to receipt of the destroyed products package, here in Melbourne . Since we wished to have had the Rayzorbeam , Rayzorlite evaluated by Mr. Ted Bear and we have encountered an unknown anomaly ,you will have to just bear with us .
Mr. Ted Bear will Absolutely definitely positively have a set for evaluation as soon as we receive the products and understand what ATYPICAL SCAN means exactly -. so we will not have a repeat of this severe event taking place again.
At this coming week Rhino90 will make arrangements to have our Australian audience on the forum come to see a demo and try for themselves and we will update you in accordance.
Finally - Good things may come to those who wait--


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## mattheww50 (Oct 9, 2005)

Hard to know what to make of 'atypical scans'. In the past Fedex had problems with duplicate waybill numbers in the system, fortunately they usually weren't actually in transit at the same time, and by asking for approximate shipping day, they could be split out. However if you were unlucky enough to have two in the system at the same time, the scans looked very screwy because you were in fact looking at two shipments. My efforts to track this particular shipment have failed in part because the DHL tracking system is implying there is more than shipment with that ID.

Fedex fixed the problem a while ago by putting more digits in the bill number. IN any case I have PM'd Mr. Ted Bear with a very special DHL phone number (someone with both the ability and the authority to get answers). Whether the DHL G-D is willing to do so is another matter.


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## MongoMadness (Oct 9, 2005)

I think the most likely explanation of recent events involves a conspiracy and alien life-forms...


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## mattheww50 (Oct 9, 2005)

I doubt anyone is going to like this, but I have concluded that the shipment of this item by DHL was probably illegal. That leads to a series of events with US customs that probably destroyed the shipment.


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## Nitroz (Oct 9, 2005)

This thread just gets better and better.


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## Haesslich (Oct 9, 2005)

Nitroz said:


> This thread just gets better and better.



Any better and we'll be throwing lawsuits at one another. :ironic:


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## nemul (Oct 10, 2005)

holly crap! what's going on here? lol


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## LEDagent (Oct 10, 2005)

mattheww50 said:


> I doubt anyone is going to like this, but I have concluded that the shipment of this item by DHL was probably illegal. That leads to a series of events with US customs that probably destroyed the shipment.




Is this merely speculation? Or do you know something we don't. You mentioned earlier that you gave a number to Mr Ted Bear that had a direct connection with someone "in the know". Is that how you gathered that above statement, because if you did, that would make me feel better reading it.

I don't want to jump on anyone's back....it's just that this community has a tendancy to jump to conclusions and...in the end, ruin a company's reputation or two. I'm just as curious as anyone who's following this thread, and i'm only going on what i've read so far. So far, Mr Ted doesn't know what went wrong, Razorbeam doesn't know what "atypical scans" mean, and all of a sudden we've got a conclusion on the situation.

Since you seem to have the upper hand on what might be going on, i'm more than inclined (i'm sure someone else is too) to accept what you say as a possible truth. 

I'm just a little razzled by this beacuse i'm patiently waiting the development of this light. So far it's the first 50W HID handheld that will be commercially produced and accesible. To have this company's reputation ruined or even stained by speculation this early in the game will most likely spread like wildfire and leave a bad taste in our mouths and we'll never see the product at all. 

I don't know who to blame for this one. DHL, the sender, reciever...i dunno. All i ask is, if it's speculation and not a definate fact, can it be made clear?


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## Rhino90 (Oct 10, 2005)

Hi to all 

and thanks to LEDagent it is a responsible post.
Just to fill you in with what has taken place from the initial observation , and inspection of the units.

1. Rayzorlites-- signs of exposure to excess radiation are visible on both tubes with arcing signs, keep in mind that this was a non intrusive destructive scan while the lamps are inoperable in their carry cases, we are still waiting for a DHL comprehensive report which might take 6-9 days. a claim is in process currently with a fully blown investigation of the events which took place.
Corrective action is in place too , which will prevent such incidents again.
2.Rayzorbeams- the one unit has become intermittent its behavior is irregular but operable.
The other unit has some peculiar lamp behavior but also operable.
3. The units probably undergone Severe radiation exposure (could be Microwave and other we will have answers in due coarse)
4. At the moment from our point of view as a Company it might have just been a blessing in disguise..We learn from that experience allot,that particular shipment destruction will make the razors scan proof too.
5. At the moment we do not blame any particular body for the recent events but we have learned that the exposure of the AWB on the forum was a mistake of which someone used deliberately.

However Mr. Ted Bear will receive new sets for evaluation and he will update you upon receipt of the searchlights

Kind Regards

Sophat


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## mattheww50 (Oct 10, 2005)

Answer a few questions for me please. (And for those interested in a Group buy outside Australia, read the questions and answers carefully).

Was the shipment declared as containing a Lithium-Ion Battery Pack and was it labeled according to IATA and/or US DOT regulations ?

Was the shipment marked and declared as Class 9 Hazardous Materials?
Does your company have a Hazardous Materials shipping permit? 
Does your company have a Dangerous Goods shipping approval from DHL? 

Do you know for certain that the batteries used have been tested and certified to meet UN3090?

Absent meeting ALL of those requirements, it was an offense to tender the shipment to DHL, and it was probably an offense for DHL to transport the shipment even if your company did meet the requirements. In general the DHL Air network isn't licensed to carry hazmat, because much of it Internationally is contracted freight carriage on Passenger Aircraft. 

Per DHL's Terms and conditions of carriage:

"Unacceptable Shipments

Shipper agrees that its Shipment is acceptable for transportation and is deemed unacceptable if:


it is classified as hazardous material, dangerous goods, prohibited or restricted articles by IATA (International Air Transport Association), ICAO (International Civil Aviation Organisation), any applicable government department or other relevant organisation;"

IATA regulations have effectively prohibited the transportation of all Lithium Primary, and Li-Ion batteries larger than those used in a laptop by air since the end of 2004. They are classed as Dangerous Goods by IATA and US DOT. Even those that can legally fly, may not do so as baggage or freight on a passenger aircraft.

AS far as I am aware, the only carrier than can legally transport Li Primary and Li-Ion packs of the size used in your products is Fedex (and then only on a Fedex Aircraft), and that is because they are bound by US DOT, not IATA, and they can only do it to/from the USA, with the shipper holding both the required regulatory permits to ship hazardous materials, and Dangerous Goods shipping approval from Federal Express.The package must still be properly declared and labeled.

Within the USA, US DOT does permit certain equipment containing lithium primary and Lithium Secondary cells to fly if it is classed by DOT as 'life saving'. That allows AED's, PLB, EPIRB's, and certain other safety equipment with specific USCG and/or FAA approval to travel by air even on passenger aircraft.


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## Emilion (Oct 10, 2005)

My experience with DHL on Lithium / Li-ion is: 
They need some kind of certification of the batteries that meet certain requirements (safety issues), otherwise they won't ship the batteries to the states.


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## mattheww50 (Oct 10, 2005)

Emilion said:


> My experience with DHL on Lithium / Li-ion is:
> They need some kind of certification of the batteries that meet certain requirements (safety issues), otherwise they won't ship the batteries to the states.


Depends on the actual Lithium content whether it can travel by Air at all. At this point Lithium Primary battery are effectively barred from air transport by IATA regulations.

If the Li-Ion or Li-Poly can travel by Air, it has to be certified as passing tests 1-8 described in UN3090 unless the lithium content is trivial.
Test T1: Altitude Simulation – Simulates air transport under low-pressure conditions. Store at 11.6 kPa or less for 6 hours at 20°C. 
Test T2: Thermal Test – Assesses cell and battery seal integrity and internal electrical connections using thermal cycling to simulate rapid and extreme temperature changes. Perform 10 cycles between 75°C and –40°C, 6 hours per cycle with no more than 30 minutes between cycles, and then observe for 24 hours. 
Test T3: Vibration – Simulates vibration during transport. Sinusoidal waveform with a logarithmic sweep between 7 Hz and 200 Hz and back to 7 Hz in 15 minutes. This cycle must be repeated 12 times for a total of 3 hours for each of three mutually perpendicular mounting positions of the cell or battery.
Test T4: Shock – Simulates possible impacts during transport. Half-sine shock of peak acceleration of150g and pulse duration of 6 milliseconds. Each cell or battery must be subjected to 3 shocks in the positive direction and 3 shocks in the negative direction of three mutually perpendicular mounting positions for a total of 18 shocks. 
Test T5: External Short Circuit – Simulates an external short circuit. After stabilizing at 55°C, apply an external resistance of less than 0.1 ohm for 1 hour and then observe for 6 hours. 
Test T6: Impact – Simulates an impact. Place a 15.8 mm diameter bar across the sample and then drop a 9.1 kg mass from a height of 61 cm on to the bar, and then observe for 6 hours. 
Test T7: Overcharge – Evaluates the ability of a rechargeable battery to withstand overcharge. Charge at twice the manufacturer’s recommended maximum continuous charge current for 24 hours, and then observe for 7 days. 
Test T8: Forced Discharge – Evaluates the ability of a primary or a rechargeable cell to withstand forced discharge. Force discharge at an initial current equal to the maximum discharge current specified by the manufacturer, and then observe for 7 days.

16 battery packs have to survive 1-5
20 cells have to survive 6 and 8
8 packs have to survive 7


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## Lurveleven (Oct 10, 2005)

mattheww50 said:


> Test T7: Overcharge – Evaluates the ability of a rechargeable battery to withstand overcharge. Charge at twice the manufacturer’s recommended maximum continuous charge current for 24 hours, and then observe for 7 days.



Is this a joke?

Sigbjoern


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## dg (Oct 10, 2005)

This seems like a case for Mulder and Scully ....... complete with smoke and Maxabeams!


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## mattheww50 (Oct 10, 2005)

In answer to a previous question, no test 7 is NOT a joke. The batteries don't have to work after completeing each test, they just cannot fail in a manner that will allow hazardous materials outside the battery itself. Test 7 is based upon the assumption that such batteries are often charged just prior to shipment, and equipment malfunction might cause gross overcharge immediately prior to shipment. 

And this is what DHL has to say about the shipment in question. 

I have removed certain details from this email, because the name, email address and phone number of the person sending it are part of the message, but are NOT public information. I will state for the record that it comes directly from the Office of the President of DHL, content has NOT been edited, and Mr. Ted Bear has the full text including the details ommitted here.

"Subject: RE: AWB 159 9819 351 
X-MS-Has-Attach: 
X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: 
Thread-Topic: AWB 159 9819 351 
Thread-Index: AcXNocS98vZWtDEKSMa1GtqRz/6gHAAFqWBw 
X-OriginalArrivalTime: 10 Oct 2005 16:37:22.0729 (UTC) FILETIME=[E3ABC990:01C5CDB8] 
X-DCC-Qwest.net-Metrics: mpls-cmx-01.inet.qwest.net 1209; Body=1 Fuz1=1 
Fuz2=1 


Dear Matt,


I would like to thank you for bringing this out DHL's attention. You are
correct that this type of shipment is unacceptable for transport through
our commercial carrier program and we will investigate the case. It is
also concerning that the shipment was not inspected by our local office
prior to export, but due to the fact that the shipper is a known
shipper, we do not always inspect their shipments. Notification will be
made to our office in Australia to consult with the shipper and advise
them we would be unable to accept shipments of this type for transport
and will assist them in finding other means in which to ship. 


Again, thank you for making us aware of the situation. "


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## MongoMadness (Oct 10, 2005)

I just knew that the aliens who were involved were going to irradiate this torch! I wonder if they gave it an anal probe too? Please look for signs of forced entry at the dc connector to verify my concern.


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## LEDagent (Oct 11, 2005)

You know what, the air surrounding this subject is un-necessarily heavy. I understand this affects all those interested in purchasing this light because the bottom line is, this is an imported light, and rules are pretty tight about what comes in and out of this country. 

Look, let's put things in perspective here. I don't know all the details about both Razorbeam and DHL, so this is purely speculation. I'm going to assume Razorbeam is a company that is new to exporting products with these type of materials included. I will also assume that DHL is just like any carrier like USPS, UPS, and FedEx that has local drop-off points and close (almost personal) ties to their larger business customers.

Now, Razorbeam, being a company new to shipping these materials, i'm going to assume that they just didn't know all the rules and regulations, and thought it simply okay to ship as is, and without approval. Is this excuseable? I think so, afterall, how many times do we see shipment of unprotected lithium-ion cells? I have them, i've boght them from individuals on this board....and the packages i recieved didn't have fragile hazmat warnings or signs of inspection. Is it responsible? Of course not, especially with the known threat of what a bad lithium-ion cell can do...they explode, cause hot fires, and those elements are hazardous on board an aircraft. 

But this is not just Razorbeam's fault. According to DHL they are investigated their side as well: 


DHL said:


> ... It is
> also concerning that the shipment was not inspected by our local office
> prior to export, but due to the fact that the shipper is a known
> shipper, we do not always inspect their shipments.



So DHL knows that, with all the rules and regulations there are in place, even they slipped up on security on their end. Is it excusable? I'll say yes, because, again....how many times do we see rules being broken in state? How many li-ion owners are on the board, and how many recieved their shipments with proper inspections and warnings?

So what do we have with all this? DHL is investigating the matter and taking action to make sure Razorbeam doesn't ship like that again. And Razorbeam too, has made it clear that they are making efforts to make sure their merchendise is safe and legal to ship the next time around. 
Quoted here...


Razorbeam said:


> ...from our point of view as a Company it might have just been a blessing in disguise..We learn from that experience allot,that particular shipment destruction will make the razors scan proof too.



So what we have are two parties that made a simple mistake, and are being remarkably responsible about it. I commend DHL for sharing information to a concerned customer such as matheww50; Other companies would have just said "mind your own business." I commend Razorbeam for being open to us and explaining their efforts in bringing to us their products. And i also aplaud matheww50 for keeping on top of the situation for the rest of us.

But i just want to make sure that all this speculation doesn't turn too negative and out of proportion. Often times, when a company releases pre-production information about their lights on this message board, it somehow turns ugly when people get impatient for the release date. The company starts being accused for inciting "vapor wear"; memories of a past company that burned us (Gonz lights) resurface; and the mentality changes from good to bad about the company. HDS lights went through something similar, and even i got caught up in the mob mentality and politics. But they are now doing well and satisfying the addiction in most of us. 

I just want to make sure that this doesn't happen here. I want to give Razorbeam a chance, and i don't want them to be turned away from the "negative press."

Honestly how companies are making a 50W, switchable, focusable, lightweight, handheld spotlights? I'm as excited as anybody else is. I'm being held over by pictures from the company, and our experience tells us to trust outside reviewers. I just urge everyone to be more patient, and let the investigations be up to the concerned parties directly. Otherwise, early information can be used in the wrong way and speculations can turn things bad.

So far the facts presented kind of puts things in perspective...and i'll be content with that. In the meantime, i'll wait and see when Mr. Ted Bear gets his evaluation model. I'm sure he's more excited than the rest of us....you lucky *******.


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## NikolaTesla (Oct 11, 2005)

:sick2: This is way better than The Twilight Zone :sweat:


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## Mr Ted Bear (Oct 11, 2005)

lucky bastar here...

there were actually 4 lights in the shipment

1 Razorbeam 4300k
1 Razorbeam 6000k
1 Razorlite 4300k
1 Razorlite 6000 k

2 for evaluation, and 2 for donation to CPF fund rasier. Several other units are distined to me, and will go towards Hurricane Katrina / Rita relief. 

IMHO, very very generous on the part of the Ozygen Company. So in a way, it was lucky only 4 units were affected. I just spoke to Reuven, and proper arrangements and cleareaces for future shipmnets has already been obtained.


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## Haesslich (Oct 11, 2005)

Mr Ted Bear said:


> lucky bastar here...
> 
> there were actually 4 lights in the shipment
> 
> ...



Isn't that 'Rayzorlight' and 'Rayzorbeam'?  Still, I'd have loved to handle the Rayzorlite myself... and we'll see if all the right permits and packaging gets done this time. Do you have any idea if it was just shipped in a cardboard box, or did they have any other protective plastic or other packaging about them?

I'm not sure how much of a look you got into the package there, so...


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## LEDagent (Oct 11, 2005)

Man..i'm just waiting for those excellent beamshot comparisons. Mr Ted Bear's involvment in the last superlight shootout really put the competing spotlights in perspective. 

I just don't want speculation and blaming to hold back Rayzorbeam from continuing his refinement and production of the lights. I'm just saying...cuz i've seen it before.

Anyway....patience is hard to practice when we're waiting for something as seductive as this.


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## Dr_Joe (Oct 11, 2005)

The intrigue is so thick you can cut it with a knife ! :sweat: 
 
That said, if the group buy ever materializes, I'd love to get in on it if it's not too late


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## cue003 (Oct 11, 2005)

Mr Ted Bear said:


> lucky bastar here...
> 
> there were actually 4 lights in the shipment
> 
> ...



Very nice indeed. I was wondering about the 2 different "K" and how they would look in real world usability vs. "hey look at the cool blue light" type of thing. 

Looking forward to the review etc.

Curtis


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## Haesslich (Oct 11, 2005)

LEDagent said:


> Man..i'm just waiting for those excellent beamshot comparisons. Mr Ted Bear's involvment in the last superlight shootout really put the competing spotlights in perspective.
> 
> I just don't want speculation and blaming to hold back Rayzorbeam from continuing his refinement and production of the lights. I'm just saying...cuz i've seen it before.
> 
> Anyway....patience is hard to practice when we're waiting for something as seductive as this.



Incidentally, aren't comments like those made by certain members above why Surefire never discusses their lights anymore? From what I've heard, they once actually had a bit of a presence in a certain public forum... but retreated completely after similar accusations and general bad-mouthing, when products that had not been handled by some people were attacked in a similar way? 

Yes, shipping the lights via DHL was a bad idea, especially without the proper permits, but to suggest that they deliberately destroyed the package before it was shipped so that Ted E Bear would not open the box to find nothing inside (and thus imply they're thieves and con-men because they're an Australian company)... well, in the States that could be seen as just cause for a libel suit, no?

It's one thing to say the hoopla's unjustified and that the lights are being overhyped because nobody's had a chance to handle them yet - that may be true, and until we see test results, we can't be sure if Ozygen's claims about the light's performance are real or mere paper promises which have yet to be realized in the engineering. It's another to say that they don't have a product, that they never intended to ship it, and that they trashed a package before it got into DHL's hands (and that DHL shipped it anyways) so that nobody would dare inspect its contents. 

It's one thing to attack the light. It's another to attack a company without more data - and that's the type of thing that goes in Jeers and Cheers, isn't it?


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## Kiessling (Oct 11, 2005)

> and that's the type of thing that goes in Jeers and Cheers, isn't it?



Oh no, this isn't C'n'J style at all. THis forum is heavily regulated and you might want to check out the C'n'J rules to refresh your memory.
This thread is indeed walking a very fine line and I hope it won't get out of hand any more than it is right now ...
bernhard


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## mattheww50 (Oct 11, 2005)

I seriously doubt that either DHL or the shipper deliberately shipped damaged goods or deliberately damaged anything in transit. The problem was the contents were not declared in accordance with DOT and/or IATA regulations. 

In the post 9/11 world Customs and Border protection uses certain advanced technologies (and it isn't just sniffer dogs) to get an idea of what is in packages without opening them. This involves both imaging technologies, and chemical detection technologies. It is much safer and faster than opening shiments.

Certain elements suggest certain things. and certain combinations of elements suggest things.

Basically anytime LIthium turns up as anything other than Li-Al alloy, it has a high probability of being a hazard of some kind. Most Lithium compounds are either toxic or highly reactive, and the pure metal is extremely reactive. Undeclared Hazardous Materials has become a very very sensitive subject in the post 9/11 world.

The presence of significant amounts of Lithium, and not having any labeling on the parcel that suggests it should be there is likely to cause alarm. In the effort to determine exactly what it was, the parcel and contents were almost certainly destroyed by US Customs.


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## LEDagent (Oct 12, 2005)

Kiessling said:


> Oh no, this isn't C'n'J style at all. THis forum is heavily regulated and you might want to check out the C'n'J rules to refresh your memory.
> This thread is indeed walking a very fine line and I hope it won't get out of hand any more than it is right now ...
> bernhard




I'm going to have to agree. How about we stear this discussion back to the products at hand, and keep talk about DHL and shipping regulations to The Cafe?

So far Razorbeam has indicated that some design flaws were found during DHL's inspection process. How 'bout we talk about what he's doing to make it better? 

...I dunno just a thought.


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## nemul (Oct 12, 2005)

review/beamshot time


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## cue003 (Oct 12, 2005)

Hopefully Rhino90 or Rayzorbeam can elaborate on the mention of some design "flaws" that were found during DHL's inspection process. I would be curious to know what they are are when/how they will be implemented into this production series. 

I am guessing that these corrections will delay the light furter but so be it. Get 99.9% of the kinks worked out and I will be a happy buyer.... and potentially a repeat buyer as more lights come out.


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## MongoMadness (Oct 12, 2005)

Was the unit shipped in Rayzor's "Protective Case?" If so are any design changes planned for it? If not is there any plan to rename it? I vote for "Non-protective Case That Looks Pretty" or NPCTLP for short.


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## NikolaTesla (Oct 14, 2005)

:sleepy: :sleepy:


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## sorka (Oct 15, 2005)

Wow! I haven't looked at this thread in months. I decided to take a look today figuring the reviews and beamshots would have been up months ago. 

Very entertaining though


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## senecaripple (Oct 16, 2005)

must be one of the most exciting thread!


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## dbedit (Oct 17, 2005)

Any Updates....Anyone....Anyone

I am ready for a review on this light PP at the ready.


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## LEDagent (Oct 17, 2005)

dbedit said:


> Any Updates....Anyone....Anyone
> 
> I am ready for a review on this light PP at the ready.




If there is a redesign of the light, i would guess that we won't see a review or shipment of this light until revisions are complete. They haven't given us a timetable, but i'd hazard to guess it will be at least another month...at least 2 more weeks. 

I'd rather wait a month knowing that my 500 dollar flashlight has all or most of the kinks worked out.


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## LEDagent (Oct 17, 2005)

Rhino90 said:


> Hi to all
> 
> 1. Rayzorlites-- signs of exposure to excess radiation are visible on both tubes with arcing signs, keep in mind that this was a non intrusive destructive scan while the lamps are inoperable in their carry cases, we are still waiting for a DHL comprehensive report which might take 6-9 days. a claim is in process currently with a fully blown investigation of the events which took place.
> Corrective action is in place too , which will prevent such incidents again.
> ...




I'm just going to repost Rayzorbeam's finding posted earlier in the thread.

Ultimately, it sounds like a ballast and bulb problem. Is it a defect caused by the design, or is it a defect which arose from inspections during the shipping process? Whatever it is, if they fix it, at least we know the lights will make it during shipment and work once we get it. 

I'm curious to know how "radiation exposure" can effect the bulb envelope. All the bulb is, is a gas filled bubble surrounded by more glass to protect it. My only knowledge of microwaves is the one in my kitchen, and its purpose is to heat things up.


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## dbedit (Oct 17, 2005)

Led Agent, call me curious george but I am with you... What happened was the Package ran over by a big yellow truck? I would even like to see the damaged lights to see what happened Smashed , Exploded, Whatever. Who holds the bag for the lights? $4000 or so in lights is alot of money no matter the cause. 
If there is a design flaw, I look at this damage as a good thing in that is was revealed before full production... CPF pays off again.... If the company is working to obtain Military Contracts for lights I would sure hope that people didn't find out they were destroyed in the mail (just kidding). Of course my luggage with the "lifetime warranty" is destroyed by the airlines a couple of times a year.... go figure....It only costs me $35 each way for shipping to have it replaced the first few times it was free. I was even ask by the company why I had not purchased new luggage by now.


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## Dr_Joe (Oct 17, 2005)

LEDagent said:


> I'm curious to know how "radiation exposure" can effect the bulb envelope. All the bulb is, is a gas filled bubble surrounded by more glass to protect it. My only knowledge of microwaves is the one in my kitchen, and its purpose is to heat things up.


 
Try putting a light bulb in your microwave and see what happens !  (just don't plan on using that microwave again for food) 

Any metallic object (bulb contacts/electrodes for example) will produce "arcs" of electricity if exposed to enough microwave energy. 

Any sealed area (the glass gas envelope of an HID bulb for example) can shatter if the microwave energy is sufficient enough to heat it's contents to the point of expanding pressure which exceeds the glass tolerance :thinking: (I think)

This second scenario is probably not an issue because we're talking about a bulb designed to contain a plasma. 

It would be nice to know exactly what happened and why   
 
Why is DHL or US customs microwaving packages anyway :shrug:


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## Mr Ted Bear (Oct 18, 2005)

What happened is that the folks at Ozygen Co. did not adequately describe the contents of the package. Not knowing precisely what was inside, US customs performed a series of "atypical" tests including gamma microwave. The terminology used was "non-invasive, destructive testing". The microwave test completly distroyed the electronics in all four lights that were sent.

To add insult to injury, the package was completly trashed. Looked to me like the package was run over by vehicle/forklift. This was unrelated to the Customs testing... 

Last, I should note that I have had several conversation with Sophat and Rueven. I made some suggestions to them (which would be applicable to any kind of light, not just HID). I was told some of my ideas plus some other tricks will appear in the revised Razors, making them even better than before...

So like everyone, we wait......................................


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## NikolaTesla (Oct 18, 2005)

:wow: :sick2: 

:buddies:


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## Mr Ted Bear (Oct 18, 2005)

oops double post


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## Dr_Joe (Oct 18, 2005)

Isn't it nice to know that US customs is spending our tax dollars to keep us safe by blowing up ("non-invasive destructive testing") private property with Gamma Radiation ! :huh2: 

Can you just picture this at your local port of entry. 

Q: "What's in it ?" 
A: "It says flashlights, value; thousands of $, belonging to a US, tax-paying private citizen"
Q: "Should we look inside and check"
A: "Naaahhh...........just blow it up, then run it over ! But hurry it up, it's almost break time again"

 
WTF !


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## mattheww50 (Oct 18, 2005)

Dr_Joe said:


> Isn't it nice to know that US customs is spending our tax dollars to keep us safe by blowing up ("non-invasive destructive testing") private property with Gamma Radiation ! :huh2:
> 
> Can you just picture this at your local port of entry.
> 
> ...



Your analysis is grossly unfair. The transportation of certain items (in particular lithium primary and secondary cells with more than token amounts of Lithium [1 gram] are by International Convention and IATA regulations, Hazardous Materials.

There is a very large burden placed on the shipper and the carrier for shipments that contains what IATA classes as hazardous material. If you don't properly declare it, and it is detected (as it was in this case), There is a serious discrepancy between the paperwork, and the goods. Lacking mind reading skills it is very difficult to know if the incorrect labeling was by omission or commission. 5 years ago it was assumed the former (if it was even spotted it all), These days the latter is assumed, and given the choice between possibly risking bureaucratic lives, or making the shipment into scrap, you don't need a Ph. D. to know how the decision goes.

I'll give you an idea of just how on edge customs is these days. I imported some Noritake China from Sri Lanka (they have a factory, and the factory store has product at 'give away' prices). It came in by sea across San Pedro. Two boxes each about 18 inches cubed strapped on a small wooden pallete (in very poor condition), in new boxes with a clear Noritake label/logo, with a full and complete description of the contents. The shipment was delayed 2 days in Los Angeles so Customs could search the boxes (and I got billed by the warehouse in LA for the Customs inspection). The boxes would not actually clear customs until they reached the destination in the USA (where I cleared them). No duty, no taxes paid. Frankly China tableware is about as innocuous as it gets, but that is how nervous US customs has become.


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## LEDagent (Oct 18, 2005)

Mr Ted Bear said:


> What happened is that the folks at Ozygen Co. did not adequately describe the contents of the package. Not knowing precisely what was inside, US customs performed a series of "atypical" tests including gamma microwave. The terminology used was "non-invasive, destructive testing". The microwave test completly distroyed the electronics in all four lights that were sent.
> 
> To add insult to injury, the package was completly trashed. Looked to me like the package was run over by vehicle/forklift. This was unrelated to the Customs testing...
> 
> ...




I'm going to have to back him up on this one. I too have had one or two emails detailing exactly as Jeff states above.

I'll conclude by saying the same but a little differently:
Who's involved: DHL, Ozygen Co, and U.S. Customs
What happened: 
- HID lights shipped to the U.S. through DHL international shipping
- Lights intercepted by U.S. customs
- Packages were not properly declared so "atypical scans" were performed.
- "atypical scans" or "non-destructive scans" included microwave testing which accidentaly destroyed electronics.
- Package recieved by Mr. Ted Bear
- Exterior packaging in very poor condition, pointing to abuse during shipping.
- Package sent back to Ozygen Co. for investigation.
- Changes to packaging method and materials are being made to insure safety .
-Expect an update real soon....like I said before, maybe in 2 weeks.

What can we conclude from this? The lights are real, they exist. The lights weren't defective, just destroyed during shipment and a misunderstanding with customs. This thread feels like a CSI investigation.


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## dbedit (Oct 18, 2005)

This is like waiting for Christmas morning. I am ready to open presents! Waiting wouldnt be so bad if it didn't take so long


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## Kiessling (Oct 18, 2005)

Please stay on topic and avoid turning this thread into a carrier-bashing-scenario which will result in a closure eventually. Thanx.
bernhard


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## NikolaTesla (Oct 18, 2005)

Kiessling is right. An accident is an accident. An unfortunate turn of events. Stop blame throwing.

Now I just hope Mr Ted Bear can get another set soon. We like what we see but all want to see the goods. If its as good as it says, a lot of folks will want it. I my self will wait and see when some respected competant reviewers test this light. You can put me on the list of testers if you want, I am quite a HID/Xenon Short Arc collector/fan and have tested and reviewed this type of light myself. I have high hopes with reservation till I see it up front and personal myself.
All in all that is quite a tale of misfortune unlike any other on CPF I suspect. 

Now, what is next?


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## cue003 (Oct 24, 2005)

OK, well it looks like we haven't heard from Rhino90 since 10/10/05.... anyone know what is up with this light and where we currently stand? Are we still moving forward?
Money still standing by. 

Curtis


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## rugup (Oct 24, 2005)

Yah.. perhaps rhino can post a movie of a pretty girl flashing (the lights!). I still think the rayzors look like the most rugged package. Waterproof & shockproof are vital for my purchase.


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## Mr Ted Bear (Oct 24, 2005)

They expect to ship by the end of this week. I was told to expect more than just Razorlights and Razorbeams, so I guess that means they have other hid lights they would like introduced on CPF ?


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## kukula (Oct 24, 2005)

I have been keepin tab of this for some time now and was beginning to worry. Thanks for the update Mr Ted Bear. Looking forward to the long overdue review :laughing:


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## cue003 (Oct 24, 2005)

Mr. Ted Bear

Thanks very much for the update. Looking forward to seeing what other little goodies they have in your package.

Curtis


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## Dr_Joe (Oct 24, 2005)




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## ChrisDallas (Oct 27, 2005)

Where's the group buy? I was in early but have yet to be notified, is it still happening?


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## nemul (Oct 27, 2005)

once again!


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## Steelwolf (Oct 29, 2005)

Group buy looks like it's still happening, but it has been a long wait. However, I would be happier to take part in the group buy only after a couple of our trusted CPF reviewers have had a chance to handle it and are happy with it.

So I'm sitting here patiently until the green light is given. That shouldn't be too much longer since the second package should be on its way to Ted Bear.


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## dbedit (Oct 31, 2005)

If this is not the appropriate location for this post please move it for me.
After the problems/ damage duing shipping of the test lights to Ted E Bear, because items were not declared propertly by the shipper and damage resulted. I am curious what should I declare when I ship an item with a carrier. I ship flashlights fairly often and when they ask what is in the box I just say flashlights I really do not go into any more detail than that. What should I say? and into what detail should I go?

Dennis


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## mattheww50 (Oct 31, 2005)

dbedit said:


> If this is not the appropriate location for this post please move it for me.
> After the problems/ damage duing shipping of the test lights to Ted E Bear, because items were not declared propertly by the shipper and damage resulted. I am curious what should I declare when I ship an item with a carrier. I ship flashlights fairly often and when they ask what is in the box I just say flashlights I really do not go into any more detail than that. What should I say? and into what detail should I go?
> 
> Dennis



Generally all batteries except Dry cell batteries fall under some sort of Hazmat regulation, as do even fairly simple chemicals that most would not regard as hazardous. A few years ago I was stopped in Traffic in Surburan LA. Traffic was stopped for a Hazmat spill. It was Ascorbic Acid (Vitamin C)...

Up to a certain size some batteries may be exempt. In general the more sealed and the less reactive it is, the less trouble it is. SLA's, NiMh and NiCd's that are sealed are not a problem until they get large, and many are 'protected'. (most Computer laptop batteries, even as NiMh are 'protected', meaning in the event of a very high battery discharge, the equivalent of a circuit breaker inside the battery packaging will open.

You need to look at what each shipper says they consider hazmat for specific requirements or what the manufacturer says.

For example Lithium button cells generally have so little lithium in them, they the manufactuers obtain specific exemptions from the regulations. 
Cell phone batteries tend to fall into the same category.

The bind is when you are talking about a battery that can power a 35 watt HID for 2 hours, you are looking at non-trivial energy storage, and in the case of Li-Ion, non trivial amounts of lithium as well. Bad combination. Even smaller Lithium batteries that can be shipped as Hazmat usually have to shipped in such a way that they cannot possible short out, or the device they power, be activate in transit.


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## dbedit (Oct 31, 2005)

Mattheww50,
Thanks I knew someone would have this information. Maybe I can be better prepared and will look for Haz Mat Regs for the various shippers I use.


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## NewBie (Oct 31, 2005)

I finally got looking at your flyer on the first post. I see you state the light works at + 250 Degrees Celcius. Odd, how did you pull that one off, especially the batteries? What chemistry works at those temps?

Furthermore, regular solder melts by 189C, and even the high temperature electrical solders, with silver in them, that are intended for electronics melt at 240C. How do your electronics remain soldered and connected at such temperatures?

On the cold end, with the cells at -50C (stated operational temperature), what is the chemistry you found that works great down there? Most cells don't fare too well down there.


Specs do play a very legitimate role in the scheme of things, if they are on the up and up.

Oh, I finally figured the photo out, this is the Australian Navy. I was going to say that it definitely wasn't one of the major navies, and looked like some third world outfit...

Since you are referencing the Aussie Navy so much, and their testing, you do plan on making their official report public, right?

Why did you just do beamshots against the ancient and obsolete long arm? Wouldn't beamshots against the maxbeam, x990, zenoptics, and the current Reva products (which have undergone significant improvements) found here:
http://www.revanos.com/productdetail.php?pi=1

As I understand it, many of the popular and current HID lights did not fare so well in the US Navy's testing of HID portables that was just completed. The list of HID lights that did not live up to multiple claims/specifications was quite numerous. The list of failures includes quite a number of well known and popular manufacturers.

If anyone is serious about their HID lights, I'd definitely see about getting the full unbiased report from Crane Naval Weapons in Indiana.




Rhino90 said:


> Pre-lim naval test. The Rayzors are being torture tested by the Navy. They survived with no operational problems, just minor scratches. The final units are solid color HD plastic and not painted like the naval test units.




Oh, this is the Austrailian Navy.

I would definitely feel alot better if one of our popular Spotlight/HID reviewers here, with a history of doing reviews on HID/Spotlights, and a plethora of other lights to put it up against, were to review the light.


Is this the same Ozygen company out of Victoria that makes the alternative medicine stuff, water purification things, and Veterinary widgets, established two years ago? The one ran by Reuven Avital?

Ozygen 


see link above


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## Mr Ted Bear (Nov 1, 2005)

Newbie

I can assure you and other members of CPF, that it is Kenshiro and my intentions to run the Rayzors through the ringer...

The NOS/REVA is in the same class as the SF BEAST... Kenshiro is working on getting one, but they seen to be unobtanium except for the military folks...

I know that the folks at RAZOR have a few surprises coming my way but haven't gone into any of the details.

We are hoping to have some other HIDs from China to play with as well in the next few weeks.... a freind just returned, and they are not quite ready to ship.


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## NewBie (Nov 1, 2005)

Mr Ted Bear said:


> Newbie
> 
> I can assure you and other members of CPF, that it is Kenshiro and my intentions to run the Rayzors through the ringer...
> 
> ...




Yeah, thats what I found out when inquiring about this round of REVA products, they have military contracts that are so stringent, and are in very high demand, especially due to the new round of testing results on portable HID lights. I think they are actually required to fill the military contracts before shipping/selling the lights to anyone else, due to "national security" type stuff and all that jazz. Their new bulb is supposedly phenomenal in it's performance, and isn't one of the common off the shelf bulbs, like many of these HID lights are based off of.

I did notice that REVA expanded manufacturing operations, twice now, in just the past year.

It's really great to see a multitude of flashlight companies, and many new players, in a rapidly expanding market, spurned on by LEDs and HID.

Mr. Ted Bear, good to see you are going to review these. Please, if you would, do side-by-side beamshots in the same photo, they provide much better comparisons, imho.

It would be awesome to see another head to head like you did before!


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## NewBie (Nov 2, 2005)

Mr Ted Bear said:


> Newbie
> 
> I can assure you and other members of CPF, that it is Kenshiro and my intentions to run the Rayzors through the ringer...
> 
> ...




Mr. Ted Bear

Do you think you can do the mandatory 2 hour soak at the ends of the stated operating range for the Razorbeam, the -50C and +250C, and then turn them on at those temperatures, so we can see if they really do meet their stated specs?


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## Rhino90 (Nov 2, 2005)

Newbie,

If you have read the posts before making your comments you will realize I have addressed the temperature issue early on in the thread, but I will cut and paste it again for your convenience. It was an early spec sheet and our new specifications on our website have those issues corrected. www.rayzorbeam.com

quote - 
“Alex, the temperatures are thermal “shock” temperatures. When the lights are temperature tested, they are placed in a chamber that drops and elevates the temperature very rapidly. This is to test such things as material expansion, thermal resistance, that they don’t melt etc..The lights have thermal cutouts for operation and the test is to ensure durability and quality.”

I have made no mention of the origin of the Naval force. I can tell you it is NOT the Australian Navy and it is not a “third world outfit”. All I can say is that it IS a well respected naval force globaly.
Regards

-R


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## Dynacolt (Nov 2, 2005)

Hi there,
Given the lights are HID, I'm wondering how you can operationalise a momentary system that can provide for morse and other signalling applications. My understanding of HID principles is that there is an existent restrike period, albeit if this is only brief. Can you explain the process for this?

Thanks,

Dave.


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## NewBie (Nov 2, 2005)

Rhino90 said:


> Newbie,
> 
> If you have read the posts before making your comments you will realize I have addressed the temperature issue early on in the thread, but I will cut and paste it again for your convenience. It was an early spec sheet and our new specifications on our website have those issues corrected. www.rayzorbeam.com
> 
> ...






From your site:
http://www.rayzorbeam.com/catalogue/index.php?main_page=conditions

"2.3. Delivery dates are estimates. OZYGEN will notify Buyer if a scheduled delivery is expected to be delayed more than 30 days. If Buyer requests, OZYGEN will arrange for shipment by premium transportation and if the delay is not excused, will pay the additional shipping cost. Shipment by premium transportation is Vector's only obligation and liability for delay in delivery. 2.4. If Buyer causes a delay in delivery Buyer will be invoiced for additional costs incurred, including costs of storage and insurance."

Who is "Vector", as it is found at various places throughout the Conditions of Use?

Under the warranty portion, there is no warranty period at all. There is a seven day return period for defective merchandise. Is that all?

Okay, I found the new datasheets:
http://www.rayzorbeam.com/downloads/RayzorliteA4.pdf
http://www.rayzorbeam.com/downloads/RayzorbeamA4.pdf

Operational range, -10C to +65 or +70C.

Your sheet mentions lamp lumens. The reflector and lens can have a tremendous impact on the actual lumens the unit puts out. Do you know how many lumens actually make it out of your lights? The Razorlite refers to 5000 max bulb lumens, I assume this is in boost mode? Is it also 3500 bulb lumens under normal conditions, like the Razorbeam?

Your datasheets show TRAINSPOTTING LIMITED AUSTRALIA. Who is that, and how do they enter into the equation?

On your Razorlite datasheet, why reference drop testing on the battery end only orientation for the 1.5 meter drop to concrete slab? Is there an issue when dropped and it impacts the other surfaces of your light? Is this due to the fact that this is the stong axis of the bulb assembly? What happens in a side impact condition, and what is that distance? I see the Razorbeam light is just simply two meters while operating. Curious, is there a reason it doesn't say while operating on the Razorlite datasheet?

Since this is purchased from AUSTRALIA, do you have an idea of what the actual shipping to the USA would cost, import/duty fees, and any taxes would cost on top of your current introductory web pricing?


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## mattheww50 (Nov 2, 2005)

NewBie said:


> From your site:
> http://www.rayzorbeam.com/catalogue/index.php?main_page=conditions
> 
> ?
> ...



The nature of Australian law makes Companies strange creatures. They are very messy things to set up, so there are actually organizations that are in the business of creating companies with a wide range of charters, and registering them. When you need to go into business, it is infinitely easier to simply go to one of the purveyors of shelf companies, find one with a charter that meets your needs, and buy it for a couple thousand dollars. Then notify the ASC of new ownership, officers and that fact that it is now operating. 

These companys often have names that are non-sense, because they are created in large numbers, so you might see Ancoa,Ancob,Ancoc,Ancod, Ancoe ... as names. So it is common to trade under a name isn't actually the name of your company. For example our Distributor for Computer Products in Australia was initially Ancox Pty Ltd, and later Aymor Pty ltd. None of the customers ever knew them by that name, but it was the legal name. They traded under 1st Solutions. So absolutely nothing can, or should be 'read' into a company name in Australia for a compan's whose shares are not publicly traded. The company name is often simply a convenience.

The tax laws create further incentives for 'strange' ownership arrangements.


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## Orbit (Nov 4, 2005)

G'day, 

I'm a long time reader on CPF, and have read just about every post. Finally decided to join. 
i've driven past rhino 90's place a few times but never had time to drop in. But it is definatley an intresting prospect, that i will have to make time for soon.
Like many other's I await the comparison results from ted bear and ken.

ORB.


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## Lando (Nov 9, 2005)

so whats new here... the silence is deafening
would really like to know how the Rayzorbeam compares to the 50 wat hid from japan.


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## MongoMadness (Nov 9, 2005)

Well...

Last we heard the units were going to be shipped for testing the week of October 24th.

Since at least a week and a half have dragged by I am guessing that one (or more) of the following situations is highly likely:

1) The units weren't shipped and another "promise" has been broken further confirming a pattern that helps to predict future behavior with highly accurate results.

2) The units were damaged beyond recognition before or during shipping.

3) The makers of the other HID lights are conspiring against the makers of the Rayzor.

4) Space aliens have abducted either the lights and/or those involved with the lights.

Any other ideas? 

And why is Rhino so quiet?


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## Lando (Nov 12, 2005)

[bump]


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## PoliceScannerMan (Nov 12, 2005)

I honestly feel bad for the guy, hes trying to prove himself, and it keeps getting screwed up!!!  

Lets give it some time, I'm sure we all have enough lights to hold us over until then.

And for those who are skeptical, just don't buy one.

-PSM

:devil:


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## MongoMadness (Nov 12, 2005)

I suspect your last comment was aimed at me Policescannerman? I'm not sure why skeptics shouldn't be allowed to buy these - maybe you wish to ENLIGHTEN us?

Since these appear to be vaporwear I won't have the luxury of buying one - then again neither will you!

When hell freezes over and they do come to fruition I think I'm going to buy one just so I can prove my point.


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## rugup (Nov 12, 2005)

I think hes saying: noones asked for money so stop bitching and whining (newbie/mongo). You've both made really stupid and hostile comments.

Perhaps it was sent surface freight to avoid the previous trouble. If legit, this has cost them thousands to get a respected member to look at them. Why do you care, again, noones asked you to send money.

Wait for the evaluation by ted, until then hold your mouth as its not costing you anything.


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## Kiessling (Nov 12, 2005)

Uh oh ... I think it is time to calm down a bit in this thread, gentlemen!

Another option would be to close it as it is rather long and useless at the end if the originator of the thread would like it this way. Another one could then be started on the same topic when there's anything new to say.

bernhard


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## PoliceScannerMan (Nov 12, 2005)

Hey no worries, all I was saying is lets give it time to work out.

Group hug, with lights ahnd in hand.

:grouphug: 

-PSM


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## MongoMadness (Nov 13, 2005)

Yah maybe we should lock this thread down - We've got a nOOb with 17 posts swearing and name calling...

RUGUP - As far as stupid perhaps you might proofread your post next time. You probably meant to say "You've made both really stupid and hostile comments." There aren't two of me.

Oh and by the way, your post is much more hostile than any I've made.


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## Mr Ted Bear (Nov 13, 2005)

Mongo, Police Scanner and everyone else

Relax... 

There's quite a bit going on (in the background), and nobody on this board has a clue.. you think it's easy to ship lithium power hid lights legally via air, with full and complete disclosure. The lithium battery packs have now an international certification.......

That, and a few other "problems" had to be resolved to prevent another US customs microwave incident. 

Besides the Razorlite and Razorbeam, they are going to ship at least 3 other models. I sincerly doubt these lights are "vaporware". In just a short time, I will be tell everyone on CPF what I know... oh, did I mention the fact that I talk to them every couple of days (in other words, I know a *lot*)


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## Orbit (Nov 13, 2005)

Mr Ted Bear said:


> Mongo, Police Scanner and everyone else
> 
> Relax...
> 
> ...


 

I can attest to the existance of the comapny as i have driven past them a few times.

ORB


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## kukula (Nov 13, 2005)

This is good news indeed  Thanks for the update Mr. Ted Bear :rock:


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## cue003 (Nov 13, 2005)

Man, I am really curious to learn about these "other" models that will be coming to you as well. Hope everything arrives safely .......... and soon.

Curtis


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## Icebreak (Nov 13, 2005)

This is one of the more interesting threads on CPF.

Early on there were response posts by folks in the specific business. Those folks are clearly somewhat related technically and professionally. Lots of energy here.

Early on it was suggested that one or more of CPF's shootout reviewers should be consulted. At first there was some understandable reluctance but pretty quickly Rhino90 and Mr. Ted Bear made contact.

Speculation can be good. Qualified speculation is even better. Happily, in this thread qualified speculation is in the majority.

TigerLights is a good template for introducing a light through CPF. I think the RazorGuys are attempting something similar and that is a fine thing.

This is important stuff. This is exciting stuff. 

-----------------

- Jeff


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## rugup (Nov 13, 2005)

MongoMadness said:


> Yah maybe we should lock this thread down - We've got a nOOb with 17 posts swearing and name calling...
> 
> RUGUP - As far as stupid perhaps you might proofread your post next time. You probably meant to say "You've made both really stupid and hostile comments." There aren't two of me.
> 
> Oh and by the way, your post is much more hostile than any I've made.



Mine are nowhere near as hostile, nor was mine unfounded as yours were. I just dont try and discuise it. I have 17 posts, maybe you forgot that you have 34! (at least in your "mongo" account) 11 of these being hostile comments in this thread, do you have competing interests?

As for the "stupid" comment, maybe you should recheck what your refering to.

I found myself having to say something seeing poop being thrown at someone that has been very forthcoming and helpful. Hopefully the comments from Ted have made you pull your head in a bit.

Now I have to apologise to everyone else for havin' to have the last word!


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## Kiessling (Nov 13, 2005)

rugup and MongoMadness ... consider this your last warning here. Stop trashing this thread and behave. You might want to consider that this board is read by minors and use appropriate language in your upcoming posts, too.
bernhard


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## Lunarmodule (Nov 14, 2005)

I concur with many previous posts that this is indeed a truly exciting and intriguiging thread. Terrible shame about the customs fiasco, but the glass half full it its lead to design improvements and further refinements. Major kudos to Rhino90 for his perseverance and dedication. And Ted Bear for becoming our CPF guru as a reviewer. I have been chomping at the bit to see these deployed here but like cue003 said patience will have significant rewards. I've been pullling my hair out trying to locate the Holy Grail of handheld HID systems, and the Rayzorlite specs out as a dream come true. The relatively ultra-light weight vs runtime is almost unbelievable. My current refernce standard is my Acro x990, so my benchmark is fairly high in terms of a performance envelope. From what I have gathered it the Rayzor should Cuisinart it most effectively, although at a price premium which is less than a prime concern for me. Obviously the ridiculous mass of the x990 beast (an 8-lb barbell Governor Arnie EDC special) makes me cringe, as does its vulnerability to heavy water exposure. I for one wait with baited breath for the final rollout. But I just have to say: darnit Rhino90, I could have saved a fortune on other lights in the interim waiting for this one!  My dream light embodies manageable size and weight but features true photon cannon performance with reliability and minimal service. And RUNTIME! My sincerest regards for all of your endeavors to bring this gem to fruition. Hope I can still finagle my way into claiming one for my own. Just my 2 pesos...


Steve


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## Mr Ted Bear (Nov 17, 2005)

The good news is that the lights are ready to ship... however, since we are talking about a large shipment, (units for evaluations, units for donation to cpf, and units for katrina hurricane relief), the dollar value is quite high, and so would be the import duty, (close to $3,000US)... yes, there will be a LOT of lights coming to MrTedBear  

As these lights are not being resold, they have no commercial value (or something like that). Anyways, there's a way to do this duty free (donations), but involves getting prior approval from the US Consulate and US Customs. 

End of week? Next week ? It won't be long now....


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## PoliceScannerMan (Nov 17, 2005)

Sweet!! Thats good news Mr. TedBear!! :rock: 

   
   
   

-PSM


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## mattheww50 (Nov 17, 2005)

It may be easier to have the shipper obtain a Carnet Invoice for them in Australia. (A carnet is a fully refundable bond to cover the duty). Basically it is turned over to customs upon entry, and is released upon export. As long as everything that comes in, goes back out, no duty is ever paid. Contact a licensed customs broker for details. The carnet documents are then surrendered to the issuer, who refunds the money. There is usually a fee associated with the carnet, but it tends to be quite small compared value of the Carnet.

See http://www.vecci.org.au/resources/ata+carnet+no+scheme+explanatory+notes+2004.pdf
(VECCI) is Victoria Employers Chamber of Commerce and Industry).

about having one issued in Australia. US customs DOES accept them.


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## JimH (Nov 17, 2005)

Mr Ted Bear said:


> As these lights are not being resold, they have no commercial value (or something like that). Anyways, there's a way to do this duty free (donations), but involves getting prior approval from the US Consulate and US Customs.
> 
> End of week? Next week ? It won't be long now....



This all sounds pretty complicated. Just out of curiosity, do you have to get St. Peter, or his boss, to sign off on this.


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## Mr Ted Bear (Nov 18, 2005)

Since a majority of lights are donations for Hurricane Relief, they will remain in the USA so I don't think the Carnet Invoice would work based on your description "As long as everything that comes in, goes back out..."

Then there are the lights that are going to be donated to CPF Fund Raiser which will be auction/raffled, so these will also stay

And then there are the "evaluation units", and I don't know what will happen to them once Kenshiro and I have finished our review .

As I said before, I talk to Reuven every couple days, and I believe that they are "on top" of every little detail having been burned the last time.


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## mattheww50 (Nov 18, 2005)

Even if you give them away, they would normally be dutiable, however I just checked, and under the US-Australia Free Trade agreement, if they are classed as HTS 85131020 and certified as manufactured in Australia, under the FTA, the tariff rate is ZERO..

"Australia FTA Preference Status :Eligible 
code:"AU" 
Ad Valorem Rate 0% 
Specific Rate $0 
Other Rate $0 "

Manufactured in Australia means that the majority of the value is Australian Origin. For most manufactured products, even if the parts came from somewhere else, the value of assembly, maketing etc is usually enough to make it 'Local' origin.
.


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## cue003 (Nov 18, 2005)

Mr. Ted Bear, you mentioned in other posts that additional lights are coming to you that are NOT Rayzorlite or Rayzorbeams.... can you tell us anything about those lights or are they secret until your report/review is public? 

Looking forward to the next couple of weeks especially when you receive the lot of lights and take a picture of all the little precious gems in the box or boxes when they arrive.

My money is ready to go. Hope at the end of the day all the marketiting pays off with a product that truely delivers as it says.

Curtis


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## That_Guy (Nov 18, 2005)

cue003 said:


> Mr. Ted Bear, you mentioned in other posts that additional lights are coming to you that are NOT Rayzorlite or Rayzorbeams.... can you tell us anything about those lights or are they secret until your report/review is public?
> Curtis



I'm wondering about that as well. Rhino has hinted at another light two times:

The first was in the Costco HID thread:
"Rayzorbeam is thinking about manufacturing a cheap thrower (ie..big reflector)."

And the second was earlier in this thread:
"During developments the Rayzorbeam was going to have throw... Our indented target did not want this... All I can say at this stage is that if you want throw, stay tuned……."

I'm wondering if these two throwers are the same light or two different lights, and if the other lights Mr. Ted Bear is getting include this light or lights.


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## Lando (Nov 18, 2005)

I am not "bumpin" anymore, last time I did that something horrible happend....


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## markdi (Nov 18, 2005)

bump ? what is that ?

ha ha


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## Lando (Nov 18, 2005)

<---this would be bumping


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## Mr Ted Bear (Nov 22, 2005)

I have received email correspondences from the American Consulate in Australlia. There is form coming to me via regular mail, which I must sign and complete, and mail back to them (original docs only... no faxes, no copies), and then we are good to go!


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## kukula (Nov 23, 2005)

Finally some good news :buddies: Gee didnt realize that sending those samples over could bring so much trouble :thinking:


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## Mr Ted Bear (Nov 23, 2005)

if it were just one or two sample "evauation units", then I would just pay the duty.

the shipment consists of several units being donated to hurricane katrina/rita/wilma relief agencies plus the evaluation models. with so many lights, the duty quoted was just over $2000 (not 3,000 as originally reported). any way you look at, for the privaledge of giving away lights, one should now have to pay the $2,000 duty.


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## Lips (Nov 23, 2005)

I would like to be added to the group buy, pending review. Paypal Ready

Thanks


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## mattheww50 (Nov 23, 2005)

Mr Ted Bear said:


> if it were just one or two sample "evauation units", then I would just pay the duty.
> 
> the shipment consists of several units being donated to hurricane katrina/rita/wilma relief agencies plus the evaluation models. with so many lights, the duty quoted was just over $2000 (not 3,000 as originally reported). any way you look at, for the privaledge of giving away lights, one should now have to pay the $2,000 duty.



Except that if they are declared as 'Australian' origin, under the USA Australia Free Trade Agreement, they are not dutiable, however you might still end paying California Sales Tax on them.


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## Mr Ted Bear (Nov 23, 2005)

mattheww50

simply declaring them Australlian Origin under the FTA is only part of the processs.

I received the forms today, but nothing made sense, so I ended up calling the Customs and Border Patrol, which is now part of Homeland Securiuty. (Consulate sent the wrong forms)

I was told no big deal, they took a ton of information and that secton director would probably sign eveything off first of next week


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## cue003 (Nov 23, 2005)

Jeff, according to their website there are 2 versions of the Rayzorlite and the Rayzorbeam. Do you know if you will be receiving both versions for testing?

Thanks.

Curtis


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## Mr Ted Bear (Nov 23, 2005)

Curtis
Yes I will be receiving the originals plus versions 1.2 of the both Razorlight and Razor beam. The original version is what is being shipped to the Middle East and Europeean allies; version 1.2 has some added features.... 

I, more than anyone , would like to see the 1.2 version; some of the modifications were based upon my recomendations. There is also supposed to be a 1.3 prototype, and version 1.4 won't be ready for another 6- 8 weeks (maybe in time for the Shot Show.)


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## cue003 (Nov 24, 2005)

Jeff, thanks for the response. Looking forward to your findings. Hopefully the update or maybe prototype version can also be presented to CPF members at a good discount. From there website version 1.2 (or version 2...whatever we call it) is 1.6x the first version (for the RL. The RB difference is not as bad.) ..... so I hope that there is enough difference, modifications and performance to justify the difference in price. 

The difference in my perfect world will be for a 1.2 version with complete extra battery and IR filter. Add the alloy case just for giggles to carry everything and we have a winner.  then my alarm goes off and I have to come back to reality.

I know there are not finished with everything yet so the prices may very well change. So I am not starting anything up here..... i am just hoping for the best possible combo for the money. 

Thanks again Jeff.

Curtis


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## Mr Ted Bear (Nov 30, 2005)

I just emailed Reuven the following:

1) There is no duty on the lights under the Austurallian Free Trade Act.

2) The shippers declaration must identify the lights as catagory 8513.1040.00AU

3) As the value of the shipment exceeds $2500, it is considered a commercial shipment, and a formal entry and bond is required by US Customs.

4) I have a customs broker who will charge $105 for filing the formal entry, and $75 dollars for the bond. Also , US Customs will charge a merchandise processing fee (appx $45), plus a $25 document fee

5) You can ship the lights NOW !!!!!!!

6) Please provide the following information:

Copy of commercial invoice
Name of Freight Company (contact phone # in USA)
Airway Bill Number

Reuven is in Singpore till the end of the week, so he plans to ship the lights next MONDAY :rock: :rock: :rock: :rock: :rock:

Even better, is that in the future, anyone that buys a light, there should only be a $5 fee informal doucment entry fee, no bonds , or merchandise processing fee


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## picard (Nov 30, 2005)

Is it legal for us, as civilians, to own this light? law enforcement is on edge in this dangerous time. Can it be shipped to canada, the land of moose, heh ???


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## cue003 (Nov 30, 2005)

Jeff, thanks for the update. Hopefully we have no more major hangouts and this shipment comes out flawlessly.

Curtis


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## Lando (Dec 4, 2005)

had a look on the Rayzorbeam website today and they are offering the Rayzor Light for $750 wich I think would be cheaper then the CPF group buy:huh2: 

http://www.rayzorbeam.com/promotion/thismonth.html

I think the last price for CPF group buy was set at $850 and the price for the RayzorLight was going to be 5% less then the Rayzorbeam right?

maybe cheaper to order via their website...thought you peeps might want to know this :wave:


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## Rhino90 (Dec 4, 2005)

Prices will not be final until the reviews are up. RB looks to be set at $850 and RL might be $650 for CPF.


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## grift (Dec 5, 2005)




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## LightTracker (Dec 5, 2005)

Hey yall, I just wanted to say hi and introduce myself. Here are some 80 X 80 pixel light icons for anyone interested: http://servatius.us/lights 

I read most of the thread from the beginning and I'm looking forward to finding out the results of trials. What a dedicated bunch of enthusiasts!


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## PoliceScannerMan (Dec 5, 2005)

LightTracker said:


> Hey yall, I just wanted to say hi and introduce myself. Here are some 80 X 80 pixel light icons for anyone interested: http://servatius.us/lights
> 
> I read most of the thread from the beginning and I'm looking forward to finding out the results of trials. What a dedicated bunch of enthusiasts!



Welcome to the brightside Light Tracker Dan!! I'm PSM Nice to meet ya, cool Avatar pics!!

-PSM


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## cue003 (Dec 10, 2005)

Have they arrived in the US for testing yet?

Curtis


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## cue003 (Dec 12, 2005)

Anyone out there?


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## senecaripple (Dec 12, 2005)

no! just us lurkers and curiosity seekers wondering if this project really exists or just a pigment of our imagination!:huh2:


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## grift (Dec 12, 2005)

any updates????


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## Mr Ted Bear (Dec 12, 2005)

I spoke to Reuven last week, and he said he was in Singapore till the 10th; then he said the 13th....

Frnankly, I don't know what's going on. I no longer have a warm and fuzzy feeling with their credability. When I got their email advising me what do for customs, it was entirely wrong. The form was for an American citizen that had been living in Australia, and was moving back to the USA, hence no customs duty.

I have spent my time reseaching how to export to the USA, and what they need to do, which by the way, is exactly what matthew50 said, if you read his posts. In fact, I don't even need to hire a customs broker to do the formal entry becuase FEDEX has their own in house brokerage service.

I guess there two ways to look at this situation... everyone has been waitng for nearly 6 months, so a few more days won't make a lot of difference. On the other hand, every day they don't ship, just makes them look worse.

And consider this, with no more than a couple of short phone calls the "Japanese/Taiwanese" 50watt, being imported/marketed by XeVision will likely be my hands before the RAZORS (first of next week)

Last tidbid of info for those watching. .. a few weeks ago, I received a phone call from the POLARION distributor. He asked me how the the light was doing, and I told him just great except that I had a once had a problem with the battery making contact. Well, I just received notification that my NEW POLARION REPLACEMENT is on it's way. Note, I didn't ask for a replacement, I didn't even consider it to be a problem....

So one company has a problem shipping, the second compay has a timetable, and the third ships without asking


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## Icebreak (Dec 12, 2005)

Thanks for your efforts, Jeff.

Got Monday Night Football on the tube. Just saw a FedEx commercial that addresses international shipping solutions.

Further comments on hold until you have a light in your hands.

------------------

- Ice


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## mattheww50 (Dec 13, 2005)

Mr Ted Bear said:


> I spoke to Reuven last week, and he said he was in Singapore till the 10th; then he said the 13th....
> 
> Frnankly, I don't know what's going on. I no longer have a warm and fuzzy feeling with their credability. When I got their email advising me what do for customs, it was entirely wrong. The form was for an American citizen that had been living in Australia, and was moving back to the USA, hence no customs duty.
> 
> ...



I have had uniformly bad experiences with having Fedex handle import brokerage for me, so my highly biased advice is DON'T. You can specify a broker of your choice. You can talk to your broker before the shipment hits customs (try talking to a Fedex Broker. They actually bought a Brokerage house, Alexander, a few years back). The problem is Fedex brokers need to be all things to all people. They don't have a lot of specialized knowledge. I used to use a broker in Inglewood who was pretty good on the high tech stuff we were bringing in. Not sure how good he would have been on textile imports however. Compared to Australian Customs, US customs is easy to deal with. My only complete and total disaster involved Fedex and Indian Customs (Bad bad combination).


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## Dynacolt (Dec 13, 2005)

I, personally, believe that the products exist (at least the RL & RB in their original drafts). It seems that Rayzor has taken over the old Vector company and, if the lights make it to the marketplace, I believe they will be quite good.

However, I think that Reuven and Sophat have caused doubts by overstating the product, timelines, and their expertise before the product has become available.

It was originally stated "We have been in the lighting business for over 20 years doing high end products". It is of a concern (to me, at least) that such a company would have any difficulty negotiating international Customs laws to ship their specialised and high-end products.

I am still waiting on reports from the official NATA testing, the Navy tender outcome, and a response to my question as to how they have managed to include a "Flash button for signaling & Morse code" in an HID light (notwithstanding re-strike times etc)?

Were these lights promoted too early? Are there too many cooks in the kitchen? (too many holding and manufacturing companies seem to be involved here). Is it a matter of delayed timelines? (I was happy with the HDS and the current USL reasons for delay, but would appreciate frank and honest replies from Rayzor in relation to theirs).

Have I missed the promised Australian demonstration?

Why the inexorably verbose disclaimer? I feel if I were to buy one of these I would not so much have a guarantee of a reliable light, but that I would be liable for the problems of the world.

I still believe the product exists, and that it is likely to be pretty good, and that we at CPF are not the only market for high-end lights, but the above concerns must reflect on issues in the company and the lights they intend to produce.

Dave.


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## dg (Dec 13, 2005)

Dynacolt said:


> .... I still believe the product exists ....
> Dave.



Of course they exist ... and Santa will be personally bringing one in a couple of weeks time to everyone thats been a good boy this year
:santa:


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## markdi (Dec 13, 2005)

I had my doubts about razorbeam when 8000k and 10000k bulbs were offered.


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## Mr Ted Bear (Dec 13, 2005)

They ship when they ship......


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## cue003 (Dec 13, 2005)

Well it is good to see they are sending you a couple different "versions" of each light. Waiting patiently for them to arrive/materialize.  

Curtis


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## markdi (Dec 13, 2005)

I see no 8000k or 10000k bulb options - maybe it is because no one makes them.


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## Rhino90 (Dec 14, 2005)

For those that don’t believe our products exists…..
We are pushing and trying to get these lights out as fast as we can. The delay is also because we made modifications to the Rayzors due to some suggestions made by Mr. Ted Bear and hence the delays. Version 1 Rayzors are shipping to our Military/Defense clients as we speak.


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## Lips (Dec 14, 2005)

Rhino90,


I think the doubts started to arise when you stopped updating and posting...
Your first post on the lights which you started was on May 20, 2005...


Hope you have the kinks worked out. Keep us posted. Paypal Ready!

Thanks


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## Rayzorbeam (Dec 15, 2005)

markdi said:


> I see no 8000k or 10000k bulb options - maybe it is because no one makes them.


.
The 8K -- 10K-- are available upon request for forensic examination teams , with specialized filter sets,and specifically designed reflector.
Minimum quantity requirement is 50ea.


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## markdi (Dec 15, 2005)

kinda like this light - right - using the phillips duv35 bulb

http://atom-tec.com/uv.htm


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## lotsalumens (Dec 15, 2005)

I will be fascinated to hear how these lights perform. I built a 50w light based on a 15mcp Thor last winter for about $300. Took about ten minutes to do and can easily light things up almost a mile away with its huge reflector, however the "package" is obviously not nearly as nice as these with their compact waterproof cases and 2hr batteries. I'll be very interested in seeing the reviews of these.


cfb


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## cue003 (Dec 15, 2005)

Welcome back Rhino90 and RayzorBeam. Glad to see things are still moving forward.... not as fast as some will like, but moving forward nonetheless. 

Looking forward to the reviews and hopefully soon thereafter paypal purchase will be on its way to you.

Curtis


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## XeVision (Dec 16, 2005)

Rhino90, what AC frequency does your ballast output to the bulb? I asume you are using AC output ballasts and not DC, and D2S bulbs with 4.2 mm arc gap. What brand and color temp. bulb are you using?


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## Rayzorbeam (Dec 16, 2005)

oops


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## Rayzorbeam (Dec 16, 2005)

cue003-- thanks for the warm welcome , we have been doing a lot of work at the background, and in order to fullfill some goals we had to remain focused, and for that reason alone we have elected to fly on silent wings.
I originally planed to re send the Ver1 back to Mr Ted bear after the results have been received from DHL , but in house discussions ruled it out after that we took a forward step to create several updated versions incorporating new features features of which i will not disclose here but leave it for Mr Ted bear to reveal and make comments .those changes have taken 60 days to complete. Several other changes will take place during the coming year , once the review is completed.
XeVision-- The AZ 50W is an interesting product and we wish you success with it in the coming year .
Our ballast runs the bulb at aprox 500HZ , it can run multiple lamp types (k) and is factory set to suit a variety of DC input voltages.
D2S not on all models, and i am sure that Mr bear will update you all with photos etc as to the other bulbs.
Make is a Phillips JV Singapore they are filled and made for us specifically
Reason is that we are planing to incorporate circuit changes which will allow, "seudo color temp change" by means of a push button.

Finally we anticipate to ship prior to Christmas , and we will keep you all posted.


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## MongoMadness (Dec 16, 2005)

You're going to ship before Christmas of what year?


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## Rayzorbeam (Dec 17, 2005)

MongoMadness said:


> You're going to ship before Christmas of what year?


Should you wish to have exact details of shiping dates why don't you identify yourself on this forum, or alternatively you could write to me or rhino , and you will be receiving a prompt reply.


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## Lunarmodule (Dec 17, 2005)

So much for tact, courtesy and decorum, MM...

Rhino 90 and Rayzorbeam,

Welcome back to the forums. Both my good friend Cue003 and I have a great deal of interest focused on your upcoming releases. It has been a long wait but I have given the benefit of the doubt. Despite the unfortunate shipping incident the additional time has made possible the evolution and improvement of the product, and I appreciate that. That cloud has a silver lining. The photos of the completed units are very rewarding indeed. Congratulations on your manifold achievements. I eagerly anticipate the review of the evaluation units and remain, as with many others, poised to make a purchase. I have long been a proponent of HID technology and the level of performance you bring to the playing field is both unique and exciting. I want to convey my thanks for your perserverance in bringing the concept from prototype to production and to being receptive from members here on design changes and improvements. It is very valuable to me to know a manufacturer expresses interest in directly exchanging views with an enthusiast community. Kudos to that and to you. It appears the stage is set and Mr. Ted Bear is in the center of it. Thank you Mr. Ted Bear for being a part of this process and for contributing so much of your time for the benefit of many.


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## Lips (Dec 17, 2005)

One vote for Lunarmodule Ambassador to ...
Rhino 90 and Rayzorbeam, if you ever need a liaison he is your man.


I have a bad habit of turning my lights on and off frequently. Does it hurt the ballast in the Razorlite or Razorbeam to turn it on and off frequently . What safe interval do you recommend before turning light back on again. 

Also does it hurt your bulb to point the light vertically for an extended period of time?

Thanks


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## Lunarmodule (Dec 17, 2005)

Lips, 

I can help with some information on your second question. Most HID setups are designed to have the bulb within a certain range of horizontal operation, this is because when you point the bulb striaght into the vertical in induces a tremendous and unequal temperature load on the upper "pinch point" of the glass arc chamber. Over time there is an increased risk of failure due to the excess stress the glass enveolope has to endure. This is a general observation for HIDs and it seems Rayzorbeam has very quality bulbs specifically designed to their engineering standards, so they may be less affected by the phenominon. From the "teaser" bits of info gathered here and there it seems like the long wait has brought about many positive things namely some interesting revisions to functionlality that Mr. Ted Bear is priveledged to sample and direct feedback towards. I applaud that move on Rayzor's behalf. Forget about demographics or marketing hype, Rayzor has gone out and faced the hardcore enthusiasts (us) and opened the door to suggestions. I just cant speak highly enough about that. Usually a company produces their product riddled with compromises based typically on some bean-counters wrath. Thats the advantage of Rayzor versus some huge global Megacorp. Concerned about HDS poduct, Henry is here and answers his phone. You can easily get to the "main man" with the answers and power to make changes. I get the same feeling with Rayzor by their conduct here. Directly involved. A smaller company is advantageous in that they can rapidly respond to changes and custom requirements, no beaurocratic inertia in the way. Thats why I wanted to write that welcome and thanks post above. Dittos to it.


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## vontech (Dec 17, 2005)

Hi folks, late to the party here. Did the Group Buy on these beauties CLOSE already? Thanks!


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## PoliceScannerMan (Dec 17, 2005)

vontech said:


> Hi folks, late to the party here. Did the Group Buy on these beauties CLOSE already? Thanks!



They'll put you down, your not too late. :sweat: 

-PSM


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## MongoMadness (Dec 17, 2005)

Rayzorbeam said:


> Should you wish to have exact details of shiping dates why don't you identify yourself on this forum, or alternatively you could write to me or rhino , and you will be receiving a prompt reply.



I wish to have exact details of shipping dates. Everyone reading this thread does. 

I would love to reveal my true identity but as the saying goes, if I did I'd have to ....

Besides in the unlikely event that my incredible powers of prescience are flawed I may want to buy one of these - I wouldn't (hypothetically) want it to get any "special" treatment before I consider reverse-engineering it and having it made in China at 1/50th of your cost.


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## MongoMadness (Dec 17, 2005)

Lunarmodule said:


> So much for tact, courtesy and decorum, MM...



I feel like I have Deja Vu? 

Lunarmodule - I ask with all tact, courtesy and decorum who appointed you the judge of what is tactful, courteous, and decorousness?

While we may not agree on how to communicate efficiently we do agree on a few things:

1) I agree that the photos are rewarding. I would go so far as to say they are COOL! I found myself becoming aroused (How's that for tact?). Then I remembered that I could get the 8th grader living next door to whip that up in about an hour with a cracked copy of Photoshop. If the photos are an accurate representation of the facts everyone who has watched this thread with their hand on their wallet is getting ready to spend - so am I. 

2) I also eagerly anticipate reviews of these units - I sincerely hope that Mr. Ted Bear isn't too put-off to bother - I for one wouldn't blame him if he threw his hands in the air and passed this "opportunity" to someone else.

"Be not so bigoted to any custom as to worship it at the expense of truth." - Johann Georg von Zimmermann


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## Kiessling (Dec 17, 2005)

Gentlemen, this is not the first time that you are warned in this thread. However, consider it the last time before the thread will be shut down and/or some members might loose their posting privileges with MongoMadness being first on the list.
bernhard


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## Lando (Dec 17, 2005)

well said bernhard I totally agree 

Mongo :duh2: :shakehead lighten up dude it's nearly christmas:wave:


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## That_Guy (Dec 17, 2005)

MongoMadness: I have no doubt that the products exist. You're making it sound as if that this is all a big scam with made up products. If it really is a scam then it is the worst scam that I have ever seen. They aren't asking for our money, so I don't see what the problem is.


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## MongoMadness (Dec 17, 2005)

Lando said:


> well said bernhard I totally agree
> 
> Mongo :duh2: :shakehead lighten up dude it's nearly christmas:wave:



Hey Lando - I'm light as a kite - I'm a Satanist - I don't celebrate Christmas - but I DO celebrate Good Friday... 

I'm still not sure why everyone gets their panties in a bunch when I call the Rayzor crew on their upteenth failure of a promised deliverable. Even Mr. Ted Bear has shown some exasperation with the folks at Rayzor. When they deliver the goods to Mr. Ted Bear and the review shows the units to be as promised I'll be happy to share one of my many tender-loving personalities with all of the kind folks here who make my opinion feel so valued.


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## Fast and Furious (Dec 18, 2005)

It's a poor show when people start talking about stealing other people's ideas and making cheap copies. Lets keep this thread about the lights and not humour people who just want to steal ideas and inovations.


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## Kiessling (Dec 18, 2005)

OK ... I think we have shown that this thread can't be saved any more. I'll close it now.
MrTedBear and Rhino, please fell free to start a new thread on this subject anytime there are some news.
To all the others ... once a new thread about those lights is running it is expected to run smoothly. Constructive critisism and questions are encouraged whereas the behaviour that led to the closure of this thread won't be tolerated any more.
bernhard


MongoMadness ... you got 2 days off to think about how to behave in a manner the community can accept


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