# Cheap short-life LED bulbs vs expensive long-life LED bulbs



## poiihy (May 15, 2015)

Philips recently released their new 60w replacement bulbs that look very much like an incandescent, and they are really cheap. They sell right now at Home Depot in two-packs for a little under $5, so the bulbs are about $2.50 each. They are the cheapest ever, and they are surprisingly good according to electronupdate on YouTube. They don't flicker! Here's the link. Well anyway, there's a realm of cheap LED bulbs. These include the new "basic bulb" I just talked about, the Philips SlimStyle, and the Cree 4-flow. All these cheap bulbs have no external heatsink; they only have a piece of metal, so they run hot—therefore, they don't last long and the manufacturers give them a short warranty (3 years usually). The other realm is the realm of the expensive LED bulbs. These bulbs have external heatsinks, run cooler, and have a much longer warranty (typically 10 years).

Now the question is... what is the better bang for the buck? Are the cheap bulbs better or are the more expensive bulbs better? The cheap bulbs don't last as long so you have to replace them more often, but they are cheaper to replace. The more expensive bulbs last longer but are more expensive to replace.
Discuss.


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## Anders Hoveland (May 17, 2015)

poiihy said:


> Now the question is... what is the better bang for the buck?


Theoretically, the longer life ones. Higher quality bulbs usually have slightly higher efficiency.

On the other hand, LED technology is rapidly improving, and it is likely there will be a better product by the time your cheap LED burns out. Making an expensive long-term investment could mean getting stuck with inferior technology.
The prices have been rapidly falling too. Many people who bought when LED technology first became commercially available saw the prices come down by more than half 2 years later.


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## poiihy (May 18, 2015)

Anders Hoveland said:


> Higher quality bulbs usually have slightly higher efficiency.



Hmm... I don't think so.

The Philips "Basic Bulb" bulbs we got are 800 lumens at 8.5 watts. These are the cheap type. The one Cree TW is 13.5 watts for the same amount of light, but it has a long life. :thinking:


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## mattheww50 (May 18, 2015)

My experience with the 'expensive' LED lights is they provide no more life than the so called 'cheap' LED lights. I bought a pair of Cree 100 watt equivalent lamps. One lasted 20 minutes, the other didn't quite make it to 1000 hours. These were NOT in enclosed fixtures. At almost $35 for the pair I am truly unimpressed. I now regard the claims of cost savings as consumer fraud. Do the math, $35 for 1000 hours, that is 3.5 cents per hour per lamp. A incandescent 100 watt lamps goes through about 1 cent per hour in electricity. On a net present value basis, the break even point is probably around 3500 hours, and I am totally Unconvinced that the current generation of LED lamps will make it to that milestone.

Hard to save money when the capital cost of the lamp is such a large multiple of the cost of electricity, and the life is so short. Both lamps have been shipped back to Cree, but since the cost of shipping them is about $5, it pushes the break even point even further into the 21st of never category.


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## SemiMan (May 18, 2015)

mattheww50 said:


> My experience with the 'expensive' LED lights is they provide no more life than the so called 'cheap' LED lights. I bought a pair of Cree 100 watt equivalent lamps. One lasted 20 minutes, the other didn't quite make it to 1000 hours. These were NOT in enclosed fixtures. At almost $35 for the pair I am truly unimpressed. I now regard the claims of cost savings as consumer fraud. Do the math, $35 for 1000 hours, that is 35 cents per hour per lamp. A incandescent 100 watt lamps goes through about 1 cent per hour in electricity. On a net present value basis, the break even point is probably around 4500 hours, and I am totally Unconvinced that the current generation of LED lamps will make it to that milestone.
> 
> Hard to save money when the capital cost of the lamp is such a large multiple of the cost of electricity, and the life is so short. Both lamps have been shipped back to Cree, but since the cost of shipping them is about $5, it pushes the break even point even further into the 21st of never category.



So you are basing the reliability of ALL led lights from ALL mfrs on just two samples that you purchased?

I have about 20 LED bulbs. Philips, Cree, LG, Feit, Luminous, Ikea and a few I can't remember. The oldest is 3+ years, the Cree from when it first came out. I have had 0 failures. Does that mean that LED bulbs will last forever?

A failure of a few units from one batch of products from one vendor is not "consumer fraud".


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## arcel1t (May 18, 2015)

I have good experience with 9(10$) and 6W (6$) bulbs in the MI-light series from futlight. 
4sevens sold em for a while and that is where I discovered them. Now I order them directly from Futlight and I use them where I can. 
They are relatively cheap for what you get if the remote control function is usable to you. 
The main difference I have noticed between high quality and low quality bulbs are the amount of aluminium cooling fins. 
We all know how important this is for the life of the led itself. The main problem with this is that they do not look like normal bulbs and are sometimes to big. 

When I touch a Futlight bulb in use they are close to burning hot but not quite, meaning you can still touch them for 10 seconds without it being uncomfortable
Some of the oldest one have been going for years. But one of them (the old models sold by 4sevens) suddenly flickered and got dimmer during a hot summer day.
It still worked only with less output. Except for that one I've had no problems.
Now I usually dim the bulbs in the warmest area down a couple of notches from max during the warmest days. 
For what it is I think futlight bulbs are a good midpoint between quality and price.


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## Julian Holtz (May 18, 2015)

It could very well be that the LEDs are not the part of the bulb which suffers from heat the most. Think about the capacitors of the electronics, for example. So, doing away with a heatsink which basically transfers the LED heat to the electronics, might not be the worst idea. You don't cool your car engine by circulating gasoline through it, although you have more of it than cooling fluid, and it is usually at a lower temperature.


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## Anders Hoveland (May 18, 2015)

Julian Holtz said:


> It could very well be that the LEDs are not the part of the bulb which suffers from heat the most. Think about the capacitors of the electronics, for example.


Most of the heat in an LED bulb is generated by the LED emitters. Xledia came out with a proprietary design that separated the heat sink from the electronic power supply so the bulb could better handle heat. The bulb was specifically designed for use in enclosed places, and as an added benefit could output higher wattages in a smaller profile, because the heat sink could be a little smaller.


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## SemiMan (May 18, 2015)

Anders Hoveland said:


> Most of the heat in an LED bulb is generated by the LED emitters. Xledia came out with a proprietary design that separated the heat sink from the electronic power supply so the bulb could better handle heat. The bulb was specifically designed for use in enclosed places, and as an added benefit could output higher wattages in a smaller profile, because the heat sink could be a little smaller.



Slimstyle and 4Flow from Cree also separate the power supply and LEDs. For the most part, the LEDs can get really hot and still delivery acceptable life. Its the power supply and solder joints that are more the issue.


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## DIWdiver (May 18, 2015)

No engineer worth his pay would use a heatsink to transfer heat from the LED to the electronics, at least not intentionally. That's just dumb. Especially if electrolytic capacitors are used, as they probably have the most limited life at elevated temperatures.

Of course, exactly that may happen as a consequence of the limited space and the economics of building an inexpensive LED bulb.

The problem is that you cannot look in the media to find direct information on the quality of a bulb's design, and you certainly can't rely on a manufacturer's hype. The only things you can rely on are trust (normally associated with a manufacturer's or distributor's name) and independent evaluations.

Do I value Acme's "million hour bulb" higher than Cree's 20,000 hour bulb at the same price? Absolutely not.

If I see 17 reviews that call Acme's XYZ bulb "good" to "excellent" and 12 reviews that call Emca's ABC bulb "crap" to "good", I'll probably pay a premium for the Acme bulb. But since Cree is the only name I recognize as a market leader, I will only be surprised if the Cree bulb turns out to be a dud.


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## m4a1usr (May 23, 2015)

I would sure love to see this thread morph into some modders observations. Been toying with modding a couple of the Cree lights I got from Home Depot back in Feb. Decided to do the whole house upgrade thing and been very, very happy so far. Bought a bunch of the cheapest 60W versions (B19-08027MF-12DE26) which are the 8 year versions and a couple of the 18 year spendier model. Both utilize what appears to be the same size heat sink, which is more that large enough for the power consumption (93ma each). But the heat sinks are not built like our loved P60 MCPCB. They are laminated conductors over what looks like PCB material (aka circuit cards) which insinuates poor thermal characteristics.


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## rupertsilva10 (May 23, 2015)

I'd rather opt for expensive long-life LED bulbs. I may have to spend more but the savings is more as well. Compared to cheap LED bulbs that will not work after few months. Most expensive LED bulbs have warranty for atleast 2 years as well!


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## poiihy (May 24, 2015)

rupertsilva10 said:


> I'd rather opt for expensive long-life LED bulbs. I may have to spend more but the savings is more as well. Compared to cheap LED bulbs that will not work after few months. Most expensive LED bulbs have warranty for atleast 2 years as well!



Few months? The cheap LEDs last at LEAST 3 years, and the expensive LEDs last at LEAST 10 years.


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## SemiMan (May 24, 2015)

.... And Cree is not the only "expensive" supplier.


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## FRITZHID (May 24, 2015)

Hell, I have a set of uber cheap flea bay LED strips that are running 2.7v over max 24/7 that are just now needing replacement.... 3.1 yrs after install. That's +26k/hrs with NO heatsink at significant overvoltage. I also have 14 early era xml that are running 3.4A with mediocre heatsinking at aprx 9h/day for the same amount of time but they require more complex PS and cooling but they haven't changed anything since install.... Tint, lumens or temp. Given, I'm overdriving the cheap LEDs and "underdriving" the xml.... 
If LEDs are dying within a month, there's a serious design flaw.


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## SemiMan (May 24, 2015)

FRITZHID said:


> Hell, I have a set of uber cheap flea bay LED strips that are running 2.7v over max 24/7 that are just now needing replacement.... 3.1 yrs after install. That's +26k/hrs with NO heatsink at significant overvoltage. I also have 14 early era xml that are running 3.4A with mediocre heatsinking at aprx 9h/day for the same amount of time but they require more complex PS and cooling but they haven't changed anything since install.... Tint, lumens or temp. Given, I'm overdriving the cheap LEDs and "underdriving" the xml....
> If LEDs are dying within a month, there's a serious design flaw.




- Manufacturing defect, not design defect


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## FRITZHID (May 24, 2015)

SemiMan said:


> - Manufacturing defect, not design defect



Like there's a difference.


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## SemiMan (May 24, 2015)

Actually yes there is


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## poiihy (May 24, 2015)

FRITZHID said:


> Like there's a difference.





SemiMan said:


> Actually yes there is



A manufacturing defect is a defect in the production of an item that causes to be unintentionally faulty. They usually only apply to a few batches or items. Design defect is a flaw in the designing and all items that are made correctly according to the design would have that flaw.


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## RetroTechie (May 25, 2015)

Julian Holtz said:


> So, doing away with a heatsink which basically transfers the LED heat to the electronics, might not be the worst idea.





DIWdiver said:


> No engineer worth his pay would use a heatsink to transfer heat from the LED to the electronics, at least not intentionally.


With a common heatsink, heat from the LEDs may heat up the electronics more than they'd otherwise heat up. Which is bad. But at the same time a shared (larger?) heatsink will probably help to keep temperature _extremes_ in bounds for all parts connected to it. Which is a good thing.

That said: giving the LEDs their own heatsink (perhaps letting them run at higher temps), and the electronics their own 'separate' cooling, makes sense. The logical extreme is to move electronics some distance away from the LEDs, which imho is a better way to design LED fixtures anyway.

It's obvious why LED bulbs are built the way they are: to have a 1:1 replacement for incandescent bulbs. Apart from that, it's just a dumb way to approach design of a LED fixture. 

Hopefully the whole concept of a "LED bulb" is just something to cater for a (looooonnnng) transition period. Then over time, fixtures designed for a bulb can be replaced with fixtures designed to take a LED module, and a separate module with the driver electronics. _If_ we're lucky, some standards will pop up, such that each of those can be replaced *individually* as easy as replacing a bulb today. If not, all power to the modders out there! :laughing:


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## SemiMan (May 25, 2015)

When bulbs cost a few dollars and last 10000+ hours who will care?


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## poiihy (May 26, 2015)

SemiMan said:


> When bulbs cost a few dollars and last 10000+ hours who will care?



People would care when there are LED and ballast modules that are even cheaper and last much longer.


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## SemiMan (May 26, 2015)

poiihy said:


> People would care when there are LED and ballast modules that are even cheaper and last much longer.



You mean like PCs which are rarely bought in a modular fashion any more because it is too expensive.

It will always cost more to have a separate ballast that is user replaceable and a LED unit that is too.

Anything you pick will have a non ideal form factor in some respect.

At an average of 1000 hours/year for a light in a house ... No one cares that it lasts forever. Consumers rarely buy that way for cheap things.


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## poiihy (May 26, 2015)

SemiMan said:


> Anything you pick will have a non ideal form factor in some respect.


Not if there are standards.

But if modular things would never be cheaper, then nevermind.


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## DIWdiver (May 26, 2015)

Yes, by its very nature, modularity adds cost. You have to have separate housing, separate connections, separate instructions, installation, stocking, packing, shipping, sales, etc.

As much as it sucks not being able to repair a $500 TV when a $0.15 capacitor fails after 8 years, if you made the thing repairable it would be $800, and so few people would buy it that no manufacturer would ever make it.


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## Steve K (May 27, 2015)

no disagreements with the ideas presented so far, but just wanted to add the observation that lighting design is already modular... the item that is consumable is designed as a separate part of the light fixture. The incandescent bulb, despite being a module with separate housing, connections, etc., was quite cheap once it was standardized and produced by the millions.

I'm still waiting for lighting fixtures with built-in power supplies and LEDs and heatsinks to become common. These could be built to last as long as fashion allows.


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## RetroTechie (May 27, 2015)

DIWdiver said:


> Yes, by its very nature, modularity adds cost.


Respectfully disagree there. Perhaps for stores that have to keep a larger set of parts around. Not for end users though.

If I buy a MacBook Pro, and outside warranty the motherboard fries, then I've mostly got an expensive paperweight. Repair could be costly, possibly prohibitive compared to buying a replacement _computer_.

If the same happens in _my_ PC, I can keep all other parts as-is, swap a (relatively cheap) motherboard, and I'm good to go. Monitor and keyboard aren't even part of the equation.

Same goes if one part dies much more often than another. If (for example) for LEDs, it's the electronics that die all the time but not the LEDs, with LED bulbs you'd throw out a lot of good LEDs. With a separate LED module, you'd keep that and only throw out a driver each time it dies. Even if cost of individual parts is _somewhat_ higher, I don't think that (in numbers, on average, all else being the same) a "driver" module would be more expensive than a "driver + LED" module.


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## SemiMan (May 27, 2015)

RetroTechie said:


> Respectfully disagree there. Perhaps for stores that have to keep a larger set of parts around. Not for end users though.
> 
> If I buy a MacBook Pro, and outside warranty the motherboard fries, then I've mostly got an expensive paperweight. Repair could be costly, possibly prohibitive compared to buying a replacement _computer_.
> 
> ...



Unless it looks curiously like a bulb ... then it will be quite a bit higher for the separate pieces. When we look at reducing fixure costs, we look at embedding the driver simply to save the added cost of the packaging for the driver. Every penny counts when you are trying to make the sale. Given the choice, as long as the warranty is similar, people will go with the cheaper one.

Every notice that the price of a car is but a fraction of the sum of its parts?


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## idleprocess (May 27, 2015)

poiihy said:


> Not if there are standards.
> 
> But if modular things would never be cheaper, then nevermind.



Zhaga standard *might* catch hold in the commercial space and other high-duty-cycle applications where components could be economically replaced during the life of the fixture and buyers will pay a premium for economy, longevity, and technical aspects. But not in the residential market where the masses overwhelmingly prefer lowest cost with other preferences being distinct minorities.


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## SemiMan (May 27, 2015)

Zhaga in the commercial world only gets you back to "bulbs" ....residential already has that


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## idleprocess (May 27, 2015)

SemiMan said:


> Zhaga in the commercial world only gets you back to "bulbs" ....residential already has that


This is true. Would simply transform commercial LED fixtures into what most other commercial fixtures already have - serviceable or swap-able light sources, driving electronics, _(or somewhat worse - all-in-one light engines)_ and optics.

For now, LED light bulbs are apt to be kind of like laptops in the sense that for most manufacturers any given model lives on the shelves for perhaps a quarter before being replaced by another newer similar model in that same slot in the lineup. The differences to the purchaser from one quarter to the next might not be overly apparent. We already saw Cree do this with silent revisions to the original bulb; suspect they're doing the same to the 4Flow with modest improvements _(and cost reductions!)_ along the way.


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## WeLight (May 28, 2015)

SemiMan said:


> Consumers rarely buy that way for cheap things.


telling statement, if we make a bulb for a couple of bucks so consumers have no issue throwing it away, we might as well have never invented the led, the bulb conspiracy has made its way to the led market. If we dont throw it away then the bulb factory's will have nothing to make, what a profound and utterly depressing conversation, taking another tact, Cree have made it clear SC5 tech like XHP70 they want customers to run it at 105 C as a general application, more products like that will in fact assist in heatsink design, electronics is another matter


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## idleprocess (May 28, 2015)

WeLight said:


> telling statement, if we make a bulb for a couple of bucks so consumers have no issue throwing it away, we might as well have never invented the led, the bulb conspiracy has made its way to the led market. If we dont throw it away then the bulb factory's will have nothing to make, what a profound and utterly depressing conversation


If you know how to get consumers to spend more for quality with _low involvement_ products such as light bulbs, there's a vast fortune waiting to be made as a marketing consultant. The industry tried and tried and tried with CFL's and didn't exactly put the incandescent out to pasture within 3 years.


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## idleprocess (May 28, 2015)

SemiMan said:


> You mean like PCs which are rarely bought in a modular fashion any more because it is too expensive.


I think the slow death of the modular desktop PC has more to do with consumer preference than expense. Last I looked into things, desktop computers cost less on almost every performance basis than laptops. The gap has narrowed since desktop sales are continuously shrinking along with economy of scale, but it still persists.


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## SemiMan (May 28, 2015)

In almost all cases, take the price of the battery out and laptops are quite a bit cheaper . only advantage is thermal.


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