# Surefire M4 for a Non-Hotwire Flashaholic?



## Geogecko (May 23, 2006)

Hey! Well, up until now, I've mostly been interested in LED flashlights, mainly, because of their regulation and high-output/portability ratio.

But, I've been looking at some long throw, high-output incandescents lately, and like the output numbers I've seen. This would probably be kept mostly in my truck, as currently I have a SF L2 in there, and was disappointed when trying to light something up about 200 feet away, while in the truck.

Anyway, I was originally thinking of just getting an M4, or possibly an M3T. My concern is that these lights do not have regulation, so from the first point of turning it on, it continually gets dimmer.

Would this disappoint me, since I'm used to the U2 or McLux III-PD?

The other annoying thing, is the M4 takes 4 batteries, and the spares carrier only carries 6 batteries, only enough for one change, were as, if I went with the M3T, I'd get 2 changes. I guess I could use a Pelican micro case to make my own spares carrier...

What do you guys think?


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## sween1911 (May 23, 2006)

A popular setup is to get an M3T. Then get your hands on a HAIII 1 cell extender (I think lighthound has them - the HAIII detonator extension would look NICE on that!) and an M4 lamp. This way, you can switch back and forth as needs dictate.


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## bwaites (May 23, 2006)

I would lean towards the M3/M3T. CR123's have a nice flat discharge curve, and though I love regulated lights, it is tolerable in high output lights.

Bill


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## Chronos (May 23, 2006)

I have a few good LED throwers (and have a Gladius on the way). I love them for similar reasons: good lighting, great battery life (regulated on a few), and durability. All important when I'm out trekking at night in the countryside.

However I have a couple of intense incans and all I can say is "wow." The quality and amount of light they put out is truly amazing.

I always bring along one of the incans with me for those times when I want to illuminate at a long distance or really punch through vegetation. I've been in a few situations where I was able to ID a potentially dangerous situation with my W/E that my most powerful LED missed.

I'm sure the M3T and M4 would be great incans. I'm not sure what their battery life is- probably an hour or less. No they are not regulated so their output diminishes on a pretty linear/hockey stick scale. But for those short bursts when only an incan will do... they are absolutely priceless IMHO. Their sheer output is stunning. Even when I'm 50% burned on a set of cells my W/E never fails to impress.


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## ianb (May 23, 2006)

I much prefer the feel of the M3T to the M4, it is limited in the holds you can use. The M3T is a little front heavy when used in Rogers/Surefire cigar type hold, I think you'd like both and as said already you can get a 1 cell extender and buy a M4 lamp, perfect.
Ian


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## jdriller (May 23, 2006)

Wally world, camping section, waterproof match case, $0.89. Holds two CR123's.


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## Geogecko (May 23, 2006)

I assume you mean these?

http://www.lighthound.com/sales/detonator_1_cell_extender_surefire_flashlights.htm

So that Detonator would be pretty cool. So you then just order an M4 replacement bulb (12V), versus the 9V of the M3, right?

Thank you all for the advice. I think I'll probably go with the M3T. It's cheaper, and now with this cell extender, it's basically an M4 as well, when I want it to be.


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## Big Bob (May 24, 2006)

You chose wisely. I'm reasonably certain that you would never do this, but you know when you screw on the cell extender and pop-in 4 new CR123A's, don't forget to change the LA. It's just a jim dandy way to instaflash an MN15. Regretably, I speak from experience




.....had a bloody seniors moment I guess.


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## Geogecko (May 24, 2006)

Ouch, yeah, that could get expensive. Guess a 9V bulb can't take 12V at all, huh?

So, would I be able to use the 350lm M4 bulb, or just the 225lm bulb? I assume the 350, since the HO of the M3 is already 225lm.

BTW, were those M4's in the last Alias on Monday?


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## scott.cr (May 24, 2006)

Yeah!! Those were M4s on Alias, hah! (I said to my wife, "Hey hon, check it out, I have that light!)

I didn't think a human being could roll their eyes that far back.

Anyhoo, I have two M4s, it is by far my favorite light, although I also really like my C2 and L5 bodies with clickies and Turboheads... output's not that high compared to the M4, but portability is nice.

True, you do have to hold the M4 like you hold a suitcase rather than holding like an icepick... personally I like the power and reach of the M4 so much that it's my EDC light after the sun goes down. (During daylight it's an E2E "just in case.")

There has been some talk about boring the M4 to fit two 18650 cells and using the 500 lumen lamp from an M6. This is an option for me, as I'm not afraid to mod, but what's holding me back is that that $30 lamp is being overdriven quite a lot (6v lamp getting 7.2v). Two 17670 batteries may work without modding the M4 though, but they'd still be overdriving the lamp.


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## Bullzeyebill (May 24, 2006)

scott.cr the M6 is set up for 9 volts, so two LiIon cells at full charge would be 8.4 volts or so. Best to use unprotected 18650's, due to high amp drain of the M6 HOLA, and replace or recharge cells when significant dimming occurs.

Bill


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## Big Bob (May 24, 2006)

Geogecko said:


> ......So, would I be able to use the 350lm M4 bulb, or just the 225lm bulb? I assume the 350, since the HO of the M3 is already 225lm....


You would be able to use either one, your choice. Yes, an MN16 in an M3T is rated at 225 lumens but only has a runtime of about 20 minutes on primaries; however, an MN60 in an M4 (or your M3T with cell extender) will provide 225 lumens with a runtime of almost 60 minutes. I find that the MN60 meets all my needs. Switching to the 350 lumen MN61 reduces the runtime to 1/3 and really does not increase the throw to my old eyes. For me, it also lacks the "wow factor" if you know what I mean.


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## Manzerick (May 24, 2006)

i have a M4 with 2 A19's and 3 Pila 600s's and let me tell ya, it kicks!!!

I venture into the woods and after Saturdays trip I have a whole new respect for the M4. I use to bring the U2, EOS headlamp, Ultrastinger, stinger HP and the M4 makes them look like childrens toys!

Well worth it for the spoting you speak of.


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## wquiles (May 24, 2006)

Big Bob said:


> You would be able to use either one, your choice. Yes, an MN16 in an M3T is rated at 225 lumens but only has a runtime of about 20 minutes on primaries; however, an MN60 in an M4 (or your M3T with cell extender) will provide 225 lumens with a runtime of almost 60 minutes. I find that the MN60 meets all my needs. Switching to the 350 lumen MN61 reduces the runtime to 1/3 and really does not increase the throw to my old eyes. For me, it also lacks the "wow factor" if you know what I mean.


Well said. I also agree that the MN60 (and the MN20 for the SF M6) are "enough" for my eyes. Anything brigther does have a "wow" factor, but it is not as practical to me 

It has not been suggested here yet, but another light that would be great is the SF M6, specially now that you will be able to have a regulated version 

Will


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## Geogecko (May 24, 2006)

Welp, already placed my order for an M3T. Figures. Although the M6 is a lot more expensive light, but compared with what upgrades I bought, I could almost get the M6, of course, without considering Wynn's driver... Those are going to be some sweet setups.

So, like I said, ordered the M3T, along with an M4 350lm bulb. Should have gotten the M4 250lm bulb, as I just realized what an above post mentioned, that I would have 60 minutes of 250, versus only 20. Oh, well. Eventually, I'll burn something out, right?

I also ordered a couple things from Lighthound.











That switch is a little high, but it sure looks cool.

Thanks for the advice!


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## scott.cr (May 24, 2006)

At least you took the plunge, rather than do what I do (hem and haw for six months and then take the plunge after all the sales are over).

I have that clickie tailcap on one of my M4s, the SW02. I only bought it because nobody here has complained about it. Personally I don't like the way it looks on the M4, but with that detonator I bet it will look sweet. I think the SW02 also looks great on the C2/L5 with a Turbohead. But on the M4 you have this long stick of a light with a bulbous tailcap... kinda doesn't meet my feng shui hahaha.


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## sween1911 (May 24, 2006)

Geogecko said:


> I assume you mean these?



Yup.

So basically, you're doing this:

http://www.lighthound.com/images/tnc/MC123HA_M3vsM4.jpg


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## Chronos (May 24, 2006)

LOL I've been considering the SAME flashlight. Let us know what you think of the Detonator!


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## Geogecko (May 24, 2006)

Awesome! So the cell extender does not quite match the SF HA? Hopefully, it's not that noticable. It may be slightly different on the extension I ordered. Of course, the HA one in the picture looks black, but says HA in the description...

We'll see.

I like the clickie tailcap. When I got the U2, it was one of my favorite switches. Compared to having to turn it on my L2.


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## Geogecko (May 24, 2006)

Anyone got a link to a good review of the M3/M3T? Been looking around, and haven't found but one.


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## maverick (May 24, 2006)

I own the M3, M3T, M4 and M6. If I had to choose only one, it would be the M3T. Gives a nice balanced feel in my hands.


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## Big Bob (May 25, 2006)

Chronos said:


> LOL I've been considering the SAME flashlight. Let us know what you think of the Detonator!


 
It's well-known that TNC really does nice work, and this is reflected in the Detonator. It's extremely well-machined and the anodizing is first rate IMHO. 

The M3T is front end heavy to start with, and the Detonator adds a cell length to it. So, using the finger grips on the Detonator for single-handed operation will see you supporting considerable forward weight. Not really a big deal for most I would think. I like using the Detonator on a three-cell light equipped with a TurboHead because my hand fits very nicely between the base of the TH and the finger grip extensions. This means that I can carry the light at an angle between vertical and horizontal while maintaining a loose grip, and slippage is prevented by the finger grip extensions resting against the back of my hand. This is great for an old fart with bad arthritis in his hands.

It's pretty well a given that whatever light it goes on won't be going bezel-up into a traditional holster. Also, if it's used on a light that doesn't have an anti-roll bezel, the Detonator will certainly prevent rolling.

Sorry for the ramble. It's way past my bedtime.


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## Geogecko (May 25, 2006)

jd, thanks for that tip for the dual CR123 carrier. 89 cents, huh, what a deal.

Glad to hear about TNC. Just reading the description of the Detonator makes it sound very well designed, and high quality. I do not know many custom light makers that put that anti-corrosive coating on the inside, like Surefire does.

Looks like I should be getting the light on Wednesday next week, and will probably have the stuff from Lighthound by the end of this week, or early next week. Guess my L2 will have to go up for sale, to help pay for this bad boy.


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## Big Bob (May 25, 2006)

Geogecko said:


> ....Guess my L2 will have to go up for sale, to help pay for this bad boy.


Oh Geogecko, not the L2  ! There's got to be other options! I mean, it's an L2! With the M3T *and* the L2, you'll have both bases covered....a flood LED and an incandescent thrower. Is there perhaps a family member whose been pi$$ing you off lately that you could sell instead :lolsign: ?


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## Geogecko (May 25, 2006)

LOL. Yeah, it's a nice light, even like the size, but I've also got a U2, and would rather keep that one. Of course, I don't keep the U2 in my truck either...hmm...maybe I do still need the L2. For that, need light for a long time, type of light.

Guess I'll see how it goes. Technically, I've only got 3 "real" flashlights so far, and this one on the way...


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## Chronos (May 25, 2006)

Please do keep us posted and put up a few pics too!


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## Geogecko (May 25, 2006)

Chronos said:


> Please do keep us posted and put up a few pics too!



Sure. I just got the Lighthound items...wow, that was fast! Wish I had the light already...


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## Geogecko (May 25, 2006)

Just opened the package. Wow, that SW02 is HUGE! I think I may have underestimated the size of the M3T! I ended up getting the MC123HA (regular version) instead of the Detonator, just a mistake, I think, so I'm seeing what LH wants to do about it.

I have to say though, that the quality and finish on the extender is awesome. It almost looks like it was made by Surefire, in fact. Very clean cuts and the finish is flawless.

Edit:

Should have the Detonator next week. LH took care of it, and is even paying shipping to send the MC123 back. That's good CS!


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## Geogecko (May 30, 2006)

Wow, I'm really impressed with Lighthound. I've already got the replacement Detonator (exchange, rather), and won't have the M3T until tomorrow!

I'm impressed with how smooth the machining is on the Detonator, especially the finger grips. Should be interesting to see this combination.

I guess I'll spend some of tonight, putting NyoGel on the threads and o-rings (the respective kinds, of course), to get it ready for installation.

Since LH was shipping me the Det., I went ahead and got the 250lm 4 cell bulb, so that I can get 60 minutes out of it.

Just some interesting calculations (assuming that a CR123A has about a 1500mAh capacity):

MN-15 (9V) 125lm x 60 min
13.5 watts @ 1.5 amps
MN-16 (9V) 225lm x 20 min
40.5 watts @ 4.5 amps
MN-60 (12V) 225lm x 60 min
18.0 watts @ 1.5 amps
MN-61 (12V) 350lm x 20 min
50.4 watts @ 4.5 amps

That's a lot of heat, or light!


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## Big Bob (May 31, 2006)

I have yet to come across anyone who hasn't been impressed by John's customer service. Typically, stuff that I order from him shows up in my Toronto mailbox within a week of the order date. Of course, you have the advantage of being located in the "Lighthound state".

Ordering the MN60 was a good idea. This is the LA that I use most frequently in mine. I have an MN61 (and another on its way as a spare), but it gobbles-up 123A's four at a time in real short order. Also, when using the MN61, I have found that I get the most "mileage" from Duracell Ultras and SureFires which don't come cheap anymore.

BTW, the M3T uses the MN15 or MN16 (as opposed to the MN10, MN11 listed in your figures), but I'm sure you know this already. Doesn't affect the calculations of course.

Sure hope that yor M3T arrives on schedule. Waiting really sucks, doesn't it!


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## Geogecko (May 31, 2006)

Ah, I overlooked the conversion to MN15/16 from the non-turbo head. Glad I didn't order any spares...yet.

There is an advantage to being in the Lighthound state, quick delivery, but I've also got sales tax.

Why is it that CR123's have gone up in price over the last year or so? You used to be able to get Surefire's for about $1.25, at one point.

Do battery station batteries not compare to SF's or Duracell?

Yes, waiting does seem to be the least favorite part of this...but today, it should all be over, at least, as long as the delivery people leave it at the door...


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## Big Bob (May 31, 2006)

Ohhh......, I forgot about the sales tax. Perhaps that was one reason that you didn't get the M3T from Lighthound????

Regarding the SF123A price increase several months ago, there was alot of conjecture in some threads at the time, but I guess only SF knows for sure why it introduced such a substantial increase. 

Getting more mileage outta DL123A's and SF123A's when using the MN61 is purely perception on my part with no hard data to support it. I use Battery Station 123A's in many of my lights, and currently have 30+ in stock from two different batches. According to Silver Foxs' 123 Battery Shootout, BS 123A's did well under a 2 Amp. load. I simply find, that with the M4's HOLA, it _seems_ to take a little longer for noticeable dimming to occur if DL's and SF's are used. Streamlight's 123A's were also good, but my local source has temporarily dried-up.

So, this is the day!!! Did you get it?


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## Geogecko (May 31, 2006)

Well, I had a nice little package waiting for me tonight.

All in all, I am satisfied with the way the Detonator works out for the M3T. Like someone else said, it is a bit front heavy when using the Rogers/SF hold, but not that bad. The color match is not quite what I hoped it would be, but I still plan on using it.

Wow, never seen a light (flashlight, that is), that bright! And that's still in daylight!!! I can't wait until it gets dark out.

Seems strange about the batteries. Bad for us, good for the people that make them, I guess. Wonder if it has anything to do with fuel costs? (Everything does, right?)

I didn't order the M3T from Lighthound, mainly, because I didn't realize he sold it, until after I had ordered it from someone else. But the tax would have made it more than I paid from the source that I got it from.

Took a few pictures. Without using a tripod, I had to delete almost half of them...


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## Big Bob (Jun 1, 2006)

:rock: :rock: :rock: 
Thanks for sharing the pics. The M3T is an awesome-looking light, and the SW02 certainly adds to the distinctiveness. You're right, that is one huge tailcap. You should now have absolutely no problem illuminating all kinds of stuff from the truck that you would have missed with the L4.

I wouldn't be too concerned about the HA color mismatch between the M3T and the Detonator. You get color mismatches even when dealing with vanilla SureFire parts. Sure, it would be nice if there was a better match, but when all is said and done, it's just a matter of cosmetics. You've got yourself a great light and a very flexible arrangement that should serve your needs very well indeed. Great choice :twothumbs


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## Geogecko (Jun 1, 2006)

Yeah, I agree about the HA mismatch. I guess that is a hard process to control.

The pictures actually make it look worse than it really is. The color (in real life), actually looks the same, just a different shade. In the picture, it almost looks like a different color, like green and purple.

I just wish SF made a lamp only spares carrier, that could carry 4 lamps or so, that way, I could have all the lamps with me at once, instead of deciding between two.


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## Chronos (Jun 1, 2006)

I am impressed! I agree about the HA; though it isn't a match, it wouldn't really matter to me. That is one serious looking tool. Now that you've added the Detonator, does it make sense to remove the rubber Surefire ring?


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## Geogecko (Jun 1, 2006)

I guess the rubber rings don't really do much with the Detonator on there. Good idea. I'll see about getting them off (hopefully, just by sliding them off), and take another picture.

I have to admit, I still haven't been able to try it out in the dark...maybe tonight. I need to take the MN-61 bulb out, and revert back to the 60 before I log too many MINUTES on that thing!

So...is it your turn now?


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## Chronos (Jun 1, 2006)

Just picked up a Gladius so it may be a couple of months... debating your M3 setup vs. the G&P Scorpion 500.


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## Geogecko (Jun 1, 2006)

I was really interested in the Gladius, but already had the U2. They are slightly different in function, but similar.

Oh, and...thanks a lot for pointing out the G&P light...

If they really get 500lm's out of that light, and a 60 min runtime, that's an excellent deal. Saves money on batteries...

It also looked like you could charge the battery pack outside of the light, which would be a plus, for keeping spares handy.


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## Big Bob (Jun 2, 2006)

Geogecko said:


> I guess the rubber rings don't really do much with the Detonator on there.....


This is true, but is the Detonator going to be installed on a full-time basis? I surmise from your earlier comments that this may not be the case. You may wish to leave the rubber grip ring in place for use without the Detonator.


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