# Introducing ... "The Colossus"



## modamag (Feb 23, 2008)

A few of you who have been around for a while probably already knows that I have been on a quest to equalize the the margin between the high power incands and LED. Once per ounce, we the LED fan had own the game since the early Luxeon days, but for the race for total lumen count out the front have been a catchup race against my friend JimH since day one. Before, I used to think it's Mission Possible, but I can't resist the challenge.

*=== History ===*
Tri/Quad vs WA1274	... / ... Feb 2005 ... / ... 400 lumen margin
Sephiroth vs WA1185	... / ... May 2006 ... / ... 70 lumen margin
Elephant vs "The Torch"/USL	... / ... Jan 2008 ... / ... 480 lumen margin


... Now, with the incand experiencing the next inflection point with the use of soft start switch, high current Li-Ion battery, new use of OSRAM & Philips bulb and dedicated R&D from LuxLuther, SilverFox and so many others. This is have raised the bar to an all time new level. The closest solution we LED nuts have is what LedZepplin did for ~3000 lumens which is still far from par.

... _Once and for all I want to the LED fans to take the lead, *even for a one week period*_.

So I'm designing with a blank slate with *no bar hold and unlimited budget* with only the following criteria.
1) Sufficient surface area for 100W LED light.
2) Enough depth to utilize deep reflectors to provide LED throw.
3) Power source with enough capacity to deliver 30 minutes runtime.
4) Most importantly, it's a FLASHLIGHT!

Here're what I have in mind ...


*=== Colossus LED Specs ===*
Total Weight: 1600g
Power consumption: 100 Watts
Power pack: 43 Wh
Runtime: 25 minutes
Max Light Output: 5100+ lumens

To keep the game fair the host is also co-design by my friend JimH for incands use with his own criterias.
1) Configurabe power pack for high voltage & current
2) Minimal resistance drop between the batteries and switch/bulb
3) Whopping 4" (100mm) head with modamag custom reflector for maximum brightness.

*=== Colossus Incan Specs ===*
Total Weight: 1600g
Power consumption: 50-250 Watts (bulb dependent)
Power pack: 43 Wh


*=== Design Highlights ===*
1) Configurable "integrated" battery adapter
- User configurable between series or series/parallel
- Resistance < 0.1 Ohms (theoretically 0.0001 Ohms)
- Minimal part change for increasing power and capacity

2) 4" Reflector
- Designed for "ideal" amount of flow, flood and insane brightness.

3) 4" Head
- High surface area for heat dissipation
- Low weight for ease of use
- Compatible with [email protected] (the "common denominator")

4) Interchangeable parts.
- Any crucial part of the light may be removed and swap out to accomodate for future enhancement in LED/bulb, battery, switching technology, and head.

5) Last but not least, hi/low spring tailcap compression force to minimize battery damage.


*=== Credit ===*
Special thanx to all of the following individuals for filling my brain to bring this project to life.
a) McGizmo & Newbie for your insight in optics.
b) Burnt_Retina, FM and Skip (non CPF) for your insight in making the battery adapter[url].
c) Bogus for the suggestion of a tail cap switch and Lego recommendation for future design
c) JimH & cmacclel for the design review.


*=== Help! ===*
Now I need your help ... I want to make this an open source design in which the collaboration of the community to produce the ultimate large light. I will provide full detail of the design to anyone who wish to make the light on their own. I invite you to review the current design and provide any inputs to better improve the design. Regardless of comments or criticism, every opinion are welcome.
I know there are ALOT of bright minds out there in CPF. I would like to pick your brain if you're willing.

It will be another two months before I send this design to the shop for fabrication, so we have from now until then to make any changes.

Here are a few questions that are currently still unresolved.

1) Head design
a) simple horizontal groove with wide spacing (per JimH)
b) groove & slot, very aggressive (SHARP! hard to debur)
c) flat nothing at all

2) Tail cap design, what do you prefer:
a) Simplicity, with multiple spring compression force (current design)
b) High current tail cap switch
c) Charging plug (keep in mind the balancing issue)
d) The works! Anti-Roll, High Current TC switch, charging plug.

3) How many series stack of battery should be standard
a) 1 & 2 (4x & 8x 18650 respectively)
b) 1, 2, 4
c) 1, 2, 4, 5
d) others

4) Crezenated bezel or not? Personally I don't have a affinity toward them.


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## Mirage_Man (Feb 23, 2008)

Jonathon, this is a fantastic idea! I can't wait to see what you come up with. My only hope is that it's not too far outta my budget to get on the train with you.  I'm saving my pennies to add a mill to my shop.

With the tail cap switch wouldn't that eliminate the use of many of the multi-level drivers? I'd prefer to have a side switch personally.


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## jch79 (Feb 23, 2008)

Jonathan - I know it's not a sign-up, but I'm IN! :twothumbs What a great concept!

Mods, can you lock down the incan forum? It's done. :laughing: :duck: :wave: (Just kidding)

:thumbsup: john


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## kongfuchicken (Feb 23, 2008)

Imo, keep it simple. 
For the designs, I agree with Jimh, simple horizontal grooves and keeping everything simple sound good...
Also, I've never liked crenelated bezels, but perhaps making small groves to see if the light is turned on while facing down can add functionality.

Now, down to business, does it come in black? Do you take amex? Can you accept human organs as payment?


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## EricMack (Feb 23, 2008)

Very interesting.


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## donn_ (Feb 23, 2008)

I love it! Colossus vs. Mammoth!

My choices:

Cross-hatched fin-n-groove, but with fewer of each than in your drawing. ie..larger raised surfaces.

Body switch in the neck.

Multiple body segment options, including 27mm bore for Emoli and A123 cells, and 33mm for D-sized Li-Ion packs.

Neck for D-Mag compatibility, both ways; Mag head on your neck and Mag tubes on your head.

Both bezels, screwed on.

Odds-n-Ends:

Make the head and reflector deeper, like an enlarged FM Throwmaster. This will help with multi-die leds.

Add a potentiometer to the neck, ala LED Zeppelin, for output control.

I'd like one in Ti, please.


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## Long John (Feb 23, 2008)

Great idea Jonathan :twothumbs...:thumbsup:

Like MM said, a side-switch is essential due to the driver connection.
It would be also more comfortable in this weight-/size class.

Best regards

____
Tom


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## Icarus (Feb 23, 2008)

Count me in!  :twothumbs

Side switch *and* tailcap switch. Side switch should be offered as on/off switch or momentary push button (for use with taskled drivers; tailcap switch can then be used as on/off switch).

Switch housing should be made out of brass. This would allow making switch/driver modules with the driver heatsinked to the switch housing.

Both normal and crenulated bezels please.


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## LED Zeppelin (Feb 23, 2008)

Jonthan, that looks great!

My preference is for the simple horizontal finned head designed for max. heat dissipation, side switch (tail swith really make a light of this size a 2-handed operation), at least 4 stacks of cells for 14.8 V operation, and flat or just slightly scalloped bezel.

If the goal is to be able to build an incan-besting LED light, there are some challenges beyond producing Colossus.

With the current crop of drivers, Vout is limited to 22-26 depending on whose are used. The Sharks are nice and compact, and you can fit 3 on sinks with a pot in the neck, all mounted in the same plane. There is possibly room to fit another layer, but not if the LED heatsink has a shoulder protruding into the tube as your PXR19 or my MD sinks do, and the sink/head/tube are jammed together for full contact.

Without a pot, you could fit 4 Sharks , and maybe a Remora, but the Remora would have to be floating and stuffed in the center. It would be tight.

Barring a new super boost converter (which will most certainly be larger), a bit of additional room between the side switch and head would give additional space for more boards, but be unnecessary for incan use. If you can fit another layer of Sharks, you could fit (7) Sharks and a pot, and get 150 Watts easily.

My Trinity mod draws about 80 Watts through 3 Sharks, and runs well with bottom and topside heatsinking of the Sharks. I think that is approaching the max. you can extract from 3 Sharks.

The best solution is to use drivers with more muscle, which are hopefully on the drawing board but not yet available, as long as they are realtively compact.

The LED heatsink would need to be beefy. Do you have plans to offer sinks as well? I could take head and produce LED/reflector-specific sinks as I did with the Moby **** heatsinks, but it's not an ideal route and not as cost effective as you could do from the start.

Talking Sharks, I'm partial to a dimming pot. The thread size of the 20 K log pots I use is M9 X 0.75. Donn mentioned having the pot as an option, but adding it later is rather simple, if you have the rare tap. For proper driving and dimming of the LEDs, and assuming you're near the 26 V ceiling of the Sharks, you'll want a 14.8 V cell solution, 4s. Going with 5s would give more runtime and easier converter boost, but dimming would not be full. However, if there are new boards produced with higher max. Vout, 5s would likely be a better choice.

Now, my real question. I read and re-read your post, and though it is clear you plan on producing Colossus, you do not state whether it will be produced in numbers greater than one. You do offer the design for us to produce our own. Will you be offering Colossus as a host for others?


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## Lips (Feb 23, 2008)

.




My *$'s *are in 



:thumbsup:

.


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## tdurand (Feb 23, 2008)

Jonathan-
This is a great undertaking. I'm in.
I've cast my vote. I know from the Draco/Drake project that you'll offer all the options anyway!

1-b
2-d
3-a but options to add more
4-crenullated but nothing crazy. Just a peep hole for head stead.

T


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## rizky_p (Feb 23, 2008)

oh my $$ wil soon gone!


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## LuxLuthor (Feb 23, 2008)

modamag said:


> ...I have been on a quest to equalize the the margin between the high power incands and LED. Once per ounce, we the LED fan had own the game since the early Luxeon days, but for the race for total lumen count out the front have been a catchup race against my friend JimH since day one. Before, I used to think it's Mission Possible, but I can't resist the challenge.
> 
> ... Now, with the incand experiencing the next inflection point with the use of soft start switch, high current Li-Ion battery, new use of OSRAM & Philips bulb and dedicated R&D from LuxLuthor, SilverFox and so many others. This is have raised the bar to an all time new level. The closest solution we LED nuts have is what LedZepplin did for ~3000 lumens which is still far from par.
> 
> ... _Once and for all I want to the LED fans to take the lead, *even for a one week period*_.



Just so you can keep a proper perspective, I have thrown down a new incan gauntlet for you to overcome. :devil: LOL! 

This is the bulb I used in my "Vaporizer."


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## Aircraft800 (Feb 23, 2008)

Cool Project!

I don't know if it can be done, but I've seen some CRAZY stuff recently with the the LedZep mods. I hope Wayne and George see what we want, and come up with a new series of Mega Drivers for us nutty flashlight guys!

I like your designs, but to keep it truly original, I'd work on your head design to make it less FM like. Max heat dissipation is key, and can only be done with a lot of surface area, thin, deep, multiple grooves. 

I can't wait to see the results!


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## JimH (Feb 23, 2008)

I want a Colossus(modamag) Vaporizer(LuxLuther). As close as I can figure based on Lux's numbers, that should yield approximately 9000 lumens out the front.

I, personally, prefer vertical fins, bit I think fivemega achieved as close to perfection as is possible with his original FM 3V head. I can't imagine any vertical fin design that I would like as much, much less more. 

Consequently any vertical fin design would be compared to the original FM 3V, and, unfortunately, come in second. In my opinion, even his subsequent vertical fin designs come in second. How do you get better than perfect? 

I think one would be better advised to try to make his mark with a bold, kick ***, horizontal fin design.

My answers to the poll:
1) Head design
a) simple horizontal groove with wide spacing (per JimH)

2) Tail cap design, what do you prefer:
a) Simplicity, with multiple spring compression force (current design)

3) How many series stack of battery should be standard
b) 1, 2, 4


4) Crezenated bezel or not? Personally I don't have a affinity toward them.
NOT


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## Nebula (Feb 24, 2008)

Jonathan - An open source, community driven light. What an outstanding idea.:thumbsup: And what a great response thus far from some of our most seasoned experts. :twothumbs

My choices from your options list are: 

- Head design - a) simple horizontal groove with wide spacing; 
- Tail cap design a) Simplicity, with multiple spring compression force; 
- How many series stack of battery should be standard - a) 1 & 2; 
- Crezenated bezel or not? Not. 

The only other thing that I can add is - I AM IN 

Kirk


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## jufam44 (Feb 24, 2008)

This is a great idea. Any possible ballpark for pricing? I'd love a 5000+ Lumen LED! I think Head A looks great, and Tailcap A looks great. Crenulated bezel would add a unique touch. Thanks for your hard work!


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## karlthev (Feb 24, 2008)

Hmmm, looking like a short vacation this year...



Karl


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## fxstsb (Feb 24, 2008)

That looks nice. A feature I have never seen is a light with a bezel that is threaded so a person could screw in photographic filters. Seems as that would be a selling point. Another feature should be the glass. I beleive it is called Borofloat, it is a very clear pyrex glass.


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## LuxLuthor (Feb 24, 2008)

JimH said:


> I want a Colossus(modamag) Vaporizer(LuxLuther). As close as I can figure based on Lux's numbers, that should yield approximately 9000 lumens out the front.
> 
> I, personally, prefer vertical fins, bit I think fivemega achieved as close to perfection as is possible with his original FM 3V head. I can't imagine any vertical fin design that I would like as much, much less more.
> 
> Consequently any vertical fin design would be compared to the original FM 3V, and, unfortunately, come in second. In my opinion, even his subsequent vertical fin designs come in second. How do you get better than perfect?



You are figuring the 65% conversion for Torch lumens? I'm going to be trying the 275W GE FNT and the 400W bulbs.

I used that 3.5" head because it had a wider bulb opening for the 250W bulbs. That raises another question....given the waning FM 3" Head supplies, and Delghi's long delay in getting reflectors from Carley...what reflector source for a parallel incan setup if Jonathan is making that also?


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## JimH (Feb 24, 2008)

fxstsb said:


> Another feature should be the glass. I beleive it is called Borofloat, it is a very clear pyrex glass.


Borofloat goes without saying for this type of hot wire. Modamag is already investigating sources.


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## modamag (Feb 25, 2008)

Thanx all for the acceptance of "Open Source" flashlight design. This will make it much easier for designer & manufacturers alike.

Some of you asked some detailed info regarding the light, so here's the answer for everyone.

*1) Budget?* It's was not in the equation for design. But the estimate from our machine shop is as follows (don't hold me to this yet!)
a) Incand host is ~ $500
b) LED host is ~ $440
c) Body only ~$120-$200 depending on extensions number

*2) Color?* First batch is charcoal HAIII, I'm open to color recommendation, but keep in mind it must be HAIII with at least 0.002" penetration so no bright and blingy colors. We'll save that for the "Golden Colossus" run. The only other option is bare aluminum.

*3) Why tailcap switch?* LED guys need lock-out for our uC that fully terminate the power. For incands this will also be useful, you don't want someone accidentally blasting you with 5K lumens do you. It's not really used like in the traditional sense of tactical TC switch.

*4) How do you achieve multiple spring compression force?*
By reversing the spring and increasing the distance I can control exactly the two different compression force I want pressing against the battery adapter.






*5) An additional feature designed for the incands crowd* based on JimH bulb input was to provide an additional focusing range. I was able to shift the focus point and provide 5.5 extra rotation for focusing.


==========================================
*MM: *Get a Bridgeport if you have the space. Because those Minis are just a waste of your time & $. I was cbore thru harden tool steel on my BP yesterday and what a site it was.

*donn_: *Battery option is taken cared of by http://candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=189363]Configurable battery adapter.

*LED Zeppelin:*I'm sponsoring a new driver, hopefully it comes to fruition. Fallback would be the Shark or Maxflex. More muscle means larger and more heat! ... 
Heatsink? I'm designing one that is "shell" flushed mounted to the reflector and threaded into the head for lock down.
I'll release the exact details of it once I finished all the thermal analysis and tuning. We need to get rid of quite a bit of HEAT :devil:
Reflector/LEDs, I'm designing around this principle. With pedestal for the XRE/McR17.





*Lux: *You just made Jim's day. But don't count your chicks before the eggs hatch, they might turn out to be ducklings or worst. I got couple of things left in my nite robe, which might help. You’re lucky the financial advantage is on incands side.

BTW: Becareful with the runtime. Heat generated WILL peel your reflector it’s only a mater of time. A good substrate will make your reflector more durable.

*fxstsb: *IR is one of the best way to heat up glass. With Lux’s 400W bora silicate glass is a must. If you plan to use stuff like WA1185 then it’s not a problem, but I don’t think we are targeting anything < 2000 lumens incands with this design.


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## donn_ (Feb 25, 2008)

modamag said:


> *donn_: *Battery option is taken cared of by http://candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=189363]Configurable battery adapter.



Jonathan..I'm talking about 26mm diameter batteries. I don't think they'll fit in your adaptor, will they?


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## cnjl3 (Feb 25, 2008)

What a bummer! 
You pay for HAIII and then it peels. 

Does anyone know if high heat will discolor plain aluminum?



modamag said:


> BTW: Becareful with the runtime. Heat generated WILL peel your reflector it’s only a mater of time. A good substrate will make your reflector more durable.


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## modamag (Feb 25, 2008)

It's not the HAIII on the flashlight body that peels, it's the coating of the ultra expensive reflector. Stimple will tend to peel more than orange peel which tend to peel more than smooth. That's what I was informed.

Smooth have their drawback also. If you don't polish it you'll see the machine marks. If you slow down your machine to have finer cut that increases cost significantly.

Then there is the other (BIGGER) problem. Any smooth surface will have less surface area than a rougher one. This results in less contact area for the base coat which provides adhesion.

Then there is a difference between who's doing the coating. Some hold up really well others, I wouldn't push above 50W incands. Anyone can sputter aluminum. The recipe for their base coat and preprocess is what determines a good and mediocre reflector.


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## dulridge (Feb 25, 2008)

cnjl3 said:


> What a bummer!
> You pay for HAIII and then it peels.
> 
> Does anyone know if high heat will discolor plain aluminum?



The aluminium alloys used on engine cylinder heads don't seem to and they get rather hotter than this ever will. Besides bluing on chrome just shows you it is running nice and hot. Best sign of a well-used motorcycle as long as the owner knows about carburettors. I like to see blued exhaust headers. Not so good on reflectors but the solar mirror guys (used for heating things) must have come across this and solved it.

Cheap is unlikely to be an option though.


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## DFiorentino (Feb 25, 2008)

I n t e r e s t i n g... If this comes to life I may have to pick up an incan and LED setup. 

I just can't seem to get too far away from this dang 'hobby'. 


-DF


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## LuxLuthor (Feb 26, 2008)

modamag said:


> *Lux: *You just made Jim's day. But don't count your chicks before the eggs hatch, they might turn out to be ducklings or worst.


I think ducklings are adorable! :devil:



modamag said:


> I got couple of things left in my nite robe, which might help. You’re lucky the financial advantage is on incands side.


Oh...this sounds like dueling wizards. Game on! 








modamag said:


> BTW: Becareful with the runtime. Heat generated WILL peel your reflector it’s only a mater of time. A good substrate will make your reflector more durable.
> 
> It's not the HAIII on the flashlight body that peels, it's the coating of the ultra expensive reflector. Stimple will tend to peel more than orange peel which tend to peel more than smooth. That's what I was informed.
> 
> ...



Great information on reflector coating adhesion. Yeah, so far I have been lucky with my FM/Carley reflectors. :tinfoil: 

I bought a couple of spare 3" for the day I screw up and have my first peel.  I'll be honest, when I first started testing the upper limits of the Osram 64458, I removed the reflector and Boro lens. This turned out to be a good way to test out 250W Vaporizer, as the heat is impressive. 

You realize with what you are creating here that I also may have to get one of each.

*Just the thought of 4" heads with quality reflectors....OMG.*


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## modamag (Feb 27, 2008)

Lux, have you checked if the 64458 will work with AW's softstart? Runtime of 10-20 minutes?


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## LuxLuthor (Feb 27, 2008)

Yeah it works with any of the 90-100W bulbs I have tried it with. His sales thread says it is fine up to 150W continuous...and 200W intermittent.


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## modamag (Feb 27, 2008)

So how are you taking care of the 250W bulb which you plan to vaporize us LED fanatic with? :hehehheh:

It's quite interesting as both our group pushes the envelop further and further. I might design an ultimate low resistance switch for you guys if you're nice


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## LuxLuthor (Feb 27, 2008)

You mean in terms of the switch? Ametherm NTC & Judco switch put in side. I need to use JimmyM's PWM circuit. The 64657 250W only had about 11.2A which the Judco alone can handle.


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## Raoul_Duke (Feb 27, 2008)

I guessed for 8 emoli you'd be using an JMSST, but you just used a Judco and an NTC?

I'm guessing the cells aren't charged to 4.2, (~4.1 maybee?) and the NTC gives you a volt drop, but I stopped short at 7 x 26700 emoli with the 64657 as I was sure 8 would probably blow it, mind you I didn't think of using any of my NTC's as I coulden't remember what they were rated for.


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## modamag (Feb 27, 2008)

Judco is a 10A @ 14V.

The contacts will probably hold up to 11.2A BUT ....

If you use it at 25V essentially doubling the voltage will most likely break down the dielectric of the switch.


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## Raoul_Duke (Feb 27, 2008)

Hmmm. You might have a point there. I wondered if the switch contacts could take 11= Amps but didnt know what voltage it was specked to.

I even went to the trouble of opening up the switch housing, opened up the copper crimps on the contacts inside the switch and removing the wire's and recrimping and soldered in one side of the kiu socket, and ran beefier wires to the ground grub screw.

I will see how it holds up over time and let you know. Still it holds up better than the mag switches, my unmodded 'C' mag switch hums and whines like a transformer sometimes when running 10amps at 16+V, but I haven't pulled it apart to see how it looks yet, so its a bit of a step forward....hopefully.


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## jch79 (Jun 22, 2008)

BUMP! Jonathan, is this still a go? :candle:

:wave: john


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## olrac (Jun 22, 2008)




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## milkyspit (Jun 24, 2008)

Jonathan, if you're still developing this I'm in for the challenge!


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## modamag (Oct 29, 2008)

Almost a year went by. It's now ready for the debut.
I've just posted it here.

I would like to keep this thread to mark the development of what's to become of this host.


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## LuxLuthor (Nov 13, 2008)

Just so you and JimH don't get your hopes up on LED vs. Incan too high...my "Vaporizer" has already been vanquished by Sylathnie's "Sublimator" Osram 36V 64663 400w using 10s Emoli !:kiss:


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## puzzl3 (Nov 18, 2008)

Wow, Great light for Playing Airsoft gun...
Gonna make them blind like a bat... :naughty:


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