# Recharging Energizer Ultimate Lithiums - Controlled experiments



## sxl168 (Oct 28, 2011)

I was wondering if anyone with the right hardware has attempted to recharge the Energizer Ultimate Lithium cells. I was doing some reading and found some interesting information at: http://books.google.com/books?id=ZwD8uTpXet4C&pg=PA516&lpg=PA516&dq=nasa+lithium+iron+disulfide&source=bl&ots=l_lbu3l5fy&sig=3c2cBvA0ifgzQVzHhFdlok1tW44&hl=en&ei=az6qTvmYE6Hj0QHr3vnNDw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3&ved=0CC0Q6AEwAjgK#v=onepage&q=nasa%20lithium%20iron%20disulfide&f=false

Page 516 and especially 517 show that a side chemical reaction takes place once the cell reaches 2.4 volts or so and needs to be avoided. After more Googling it appears that they use 2.25 volts as the cutoff voltage when charging the high temperature versions of this battery chemistry. 

I ask because my brother gave me 2 Energizer Ultimate Lithium cells from his portable GPS unit that he had drained and I figured I would do some research and experimentation. I measured the voltage on each cell and one of them was completely dead at 1.5 volts open circuit and dropped to 0 under load. The other was at 1.65 volts yet and was still able to produce a bit of current yet. I grabbed the cells, the DMM, and an old but wonderful HP adjustable power supply outside on some brickwork in my back yard. I set up the power supply to limit to 2.25 volts and 20 mA of charge current and charged each cell individually. The mostly dead cell charged up mirroring the discharge curve and terminated after 6 days, which indicates that nearly the entire cell capacity went in. The completely discharged cell was charging up at 0.1 to 0.2 volts higher than the other one and it was fluctuating where it would increase and then decrease, increase, decrease in voltage over and over again as it charged. After 7 days, this cell too finally charged up, but I think its suffering from partial internal leakage as the OCV slowly decreases over time over several days from 2.25 volts to 2.0 volts. The first cell dropped to 2.14 volts and has held there now for 2 weeks with no decline. I have not yet attempted to discharge them yet to check capacity. They do power my Maglite AA however and charged right back up after this test. I will be doing discharge capacity tests soon when I get some more time. 

Based on the tests I have done so far and my understanding of the chemistry, I'm guessing the completely discharged cell is probably toast as a full discharge will completely dissolve the lithium electrode and when recharging, it doesn't really have anything to plate out on, which would also help explain the higher charge voltage on that cell too and possibly some dendrite shorts popping through the separator. So if you want to recharge these cells, do not run them down 100%. I expected the cells to short out via dendrites when I attempted to charge them (which is why I did this outside) but I was shocked at how smoothly the one cell took charge. I'm sure they won't last through too many charge cycles however before the lithium electrode completely disintegrates and/or the cell shorts out.

I am checking to see if anyone else with the right gear has done anything similar with these cells and could compare notes.


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## RCM (Oct 28, 2011)

I personally wouldn't use a lithium primary that has been recharged more of a chance of it going


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## Dr Jekell (Oct 28, 2011)

I am very very very surprised that you did not end up with a fireball spitting flaming battery internals all over the place or have a vent with flame when used in the light.



sxl168 said:


> I am checking to see if anyone else with the right gear has done anything similar with these cells and could compare notes.



As far as I know no one else has done this as it is a very dangerous & unsafe thing to do.


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## sxl168 (Oct 28, 2011)

I understand the safety precautions needed for these tests and is why I am doing these tests outside away from anything else. The flashlight test was just a 5 second test before I removed them from the light. Future large discharge tests will be done with power resistors. I will not be using these in any electronic gear unless tests prove they are safe. I have a lot more testing to do before I come to that conclusion. According to the Energizer datasheet, these cells have a pressure release vent, so I'm no so worried about the cells exploding. I still have taken precautions however just in case. Tests so far have failed to open the vent and also the tests that NASA has done to the cells in my original post leads me to believe that these cells are pretty safe if conditions are well controlled.

What I intend to do is buy a pack of cells, discharge-charge them in the 20%-100% of full charge window and see if they hold up. I am just doing some controlled experimentation on these cells similar to what NASA did, but with discharged cells and not doing overcharge tests. I have a BS in Physics and part of my training is how to carry out experiments such as these. I have worked with some dangerous things as part of the training (high powered lasers, very potent Cesium and Cobalt radioactive sources, high power microwave RF, and Carcinogenic chemicals), so I'm not new to safety requirements. I do a lot of research before I even attempt to do an experiment. I certainly don't want to give an impression to the general public that these cells are safe to charge up and I apologize if I have given that impression. These cells should be assumed to be hazardous if charged until proven otherwise. I am trying to work out what conditions these cells could be recharged if it's possible and safely.

I was just curious if anyone else has tried to charge them and what their results were so that I could decide what tests I should focus on.


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## RCM (Oct 28, 2011)

I don't think any of us are crazy enough to try and charge lithium primaries....I know I'm not! They can vent hydrofluoric acid I believe which is really scary stuff!


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## Mr Happy (Oct 28, 2011)

Safety considerations aside, I'm not sure why you didn't charge them to 1.8 V, the same voltage they have when new? Charging lithium cells to higher voltages than normal dramatically increase the risk of a chemical and thermal runaway reaction. If one were to contemplate recharging such a cell, a CC/CV algorithm would be indicated with a 1.8 V limit and a low maximum charge current.

You may or may not be aware that lithium metal chemistry was the first form of rechargeable lithium battery tried, but it was found to be too dangerous and was replaced by the familiar lithium ion chemistry. Even if you recharge a cell 99 times and it does not explode, that does not mean it will not explode on the 100th time.

I read the paper you linked to, and it does not suggest or advise charging to 2.25 V. The test in question was a deliberate overcharge scenario designed to see if the battery would fail. It would be crazy to interpret this as a charging recommendation.

As everyone else has said, there is no good outcome from such experiments. Once you have tried to charge a lithium primary cell it becomes a time bomb and you would not want to touch it.


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## tylernt (Oct 28, 2011)

Mr Happy said:


> As everyone else has said, there is no good outcome from such experiments.


I disagree. If the guy is testing in controlled conditions -- outside in a steel-lined concrete box, or whatever -- the only thing he's risking is wasting his money.

My take is, even _rechargeable _Li-ions go poof if charged improperly, yet those are "safe" when the correct charging regime is used. Perhaps there is a "safe" charging regime for lithium primaries out there too, just waiting to be discovered. If you never try, you never know. 

That said, I agree such cells should be treated as time bombs until some VERY thorough testing has been done with repeatable results.


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## jtr1962 (Oct 28, 2011)

One time I experimented with charging lithium primaries. These were 1/2 AA 3.6V cells (I think the chemistry was lithium thionyl chloride). With a slow charge I managed to revive some dead cells, but they seemed to quickly self-discharge. The mistake I made was treating the ones which refused to charge (i.e. stuck at close to 0 volts) the same as I treated NiCads in that state. I figured zapping them with high current pulses might get them to take a charge, same as this sometimes clears internal shorts on NiCads. Bad move. To make it worse, I was holding the cells while I was touching a wire to them. As I'm touching a wire to one cell, I notice a red glow right around the seal on the positive end. Time enough to drop the cell and close my eyes before it popped. There was a loud bang, like a firecracker, and my workroom filled with white smoke. For a minute I thought I was blind, at least until I went out of the room, washed my face, and opened my eyes. When the smoke cleared, there was some black stuff on the ceiling. I found the can of the cell intact, but completely empty. After that experience, I'm not even keen on using regular Li-ions. LiFePO4 cells are my preferred choice nowadays.


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## Mr Happy (Oct 28, 2011)

tylernt said:


> I disagree. If the guy is testing in controlled conditions -- outside in a steel-lined concrete box, or whatever -- the only thing he's risking is wasting his money.


Perhaps I should have said there is no _useful_ outcome beyond some kind of morbid curiosity. There are no circumstances under which we can use a recharged lithium cell, and there is no way to dissect the cell and see what really might have happened inside it.


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## DFiorentino (Oct 28, 2011)

Should this thread be moved to the "Smoke and Fire" section now or later? Didn't we go through this some time before with the "nail tests"? As Mr Happy pointed out, what useful data could this possibly contribute to the community? Other than another possible Darwin Award recipient.

-DF


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## sxl168 (Oct 28, 2011)

I chose 2.25 volts as I saw it referenced in a document I found once, but can't find again after doing another quick search, but this other document is the basis for my experiments: http://www.accessengineeringlibrary.com/mghpdf/0071449345_ar041.pdf

That document shows a charging voltage of 2.0 volts which is inline with what I saw when I charged up the 2 cells I have. Both cells spent a substantial amount of time in the 1.9-2.0 volt range. Once they hit 2.0, they rapidly climbed to 2.25 volts. At the slow charge I was doing, 2.0 volts is a good termination voltage, but the 2.25 might be needed later if/when I try higher currents. The cells do exhibit 0.1 to 0.2 volts of polarization compared to the discharge profile, so a charging voltage of greater than 1.8 volts is definitely required. I reference the NASA paper because it clearly showed that I needed to stay below ~2.4 volts for certain. The absolute termination voltage will only be determined via trial and error. What is known is that 1.8 is too low and 2.4 is too high.

I never attempted to charge a Li-SOCl cell and have no desire to as it's been shown to be a non-reversable reaction. I do intend to dissect the cells once they have lost the ability to hold charge. I have a Lexan sheet set up from previous experiments for this. I also have plenty of experience opening up all sorts of cells without destroying the contents from alkaline to NiCd to LiCoO2. As another point of reference, research universities do things like this all the time to learn all about the chemical reactions going on inside of batteries. I don't have all the expensive gear they have, which is why I carefully choose what to experiment on, but I do have labcoats, gloves, face shields and sheets of Lexan for protection. I just feel there are some knowledge gaps in this particular cell design that should be looked into. 

I was just looking for some information that some of the knowledgable members of this forum might have. I definitely take offense to the Darwin award comment as I always take safety seriously when running experiments. I learned this long ago while at the University.


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## RCM (Oct 28, 2011)

The information that the knowledgeable members have is this "don't charge lithium primaries or you will end up with a ticking time bomb!"


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## sunny_nites (Oct 29, 2011)

It's funny where people draw the line for what they feel is "safe" and "un-safe". No one seems concerned sitting on top of 20 gallons of gasoline in their car but mention "lithium" in the context of batteries and it's suddenly the end of days.

Personally, I'm very interested in what you find out, sxl168. I have yet to find a battery chemistry that gives the bang for the buck (pardon the pun :nana that lithium chemistry batteries provide. If members on this board are willing to push the limits, in a safe and professional way to provide data, go for it!


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## SilverFox (Oct 29, 2011)

Hello Sxl168,

Welcome to CPF.

Keeping in mind that it can be dangerous to recharge primary cells, as long as you use proper safety measures you may be able to learn something.

You need to have a bench mark to compare your results to. I believe Energizer has some discharge curves to compare with, or you could pick up some new cells and produce your own discharge graphs. Next you can do your best to charge the cells, let them rest overnight, and then compare the discharge curves you get with those cells with new cells.

I have tried to charge a number of different chemistries, but haven't tried the Ultimate Lithium cells. Many times you can get the cell to take a surface charge, but during discharge you find that the capacity is very low, and the voltage under load drops like a rock, unless the current is kept to a very low value.

While charging and discharging, keep an eye on the cell temperature. 

Tom


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## VegasF6 (Oct 29, 2011)

Friend of mine recharged a Saft 14500. I don't think it was a controlled experiment, he just thought it was a rechargable cell. Dunno what charge current he used, I seem to remember it was no more than a 100 mA or so. Lucky.

I still have the cell laying around.


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## Mr Happy (Oct 29, 2011)

VegasF6 said:


> Friend of mine recharged a Saft 14500...
> 
> ...I still have the cell laying around.


That was very lucky. Someone on this forum charged a Saft 14500 thinking it was a lithium ion cell and as I recall it exploded so violently it near destroyed his kitchen.


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## Therrin (Feb 29, 2012)

sunny_nites said:


> It's funny where people draw the line for what they feel is "safe" and "un-safe". No one seems concerned sitting on top of 20 gallons of gasoline in their car but mention "lithium" in the context of batteries and it's suddenly the end of days.



Let us know the next time that 20gal tank of gas just randomly explodes under normal use. Actually I'll be liberal, you can report in when this happens to either you or anyone else in the state you live in. =)


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## Mandog (May 29, 2012)

So has the OP suffered a fatal accident as a result of his experiments or what? Haven't heard back from him.


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## Wreck3r (May 29, 2012)

The members who do not have any constructive posts should not waste their time and the OPs by writing on this topic. It has been said that there are safety issues and no useful information can come out of it so stop repeating the same things. 

The OP agrees with the safety issues and clearly wants to know if the data collected is useful or not. He has taken the necessary precautions to avoid injury to himself and to others. Why post time and time again that this is dangerous is beyond my comprehension.

Be constructive or don't post.


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## sunny_nites (May 29, 2012)

My point was that peoples conception of dangerous is relative and the OP shouldn't be beat up for his. I would not try this experiment myself, I don't have the safety equipment or experience. I would, however be interested in the results in an academic (ie. I would never try it myself) sort of way.

I drive cars and carry a lipo powered flashlight in my pocket everyday. I realize there are risks with both of these activities but the rewards outweigh those risks.

PS. I did a quick google search for vehicle fuel tank fires and found a few thousand entries.


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## Slazmo (Jun 1, 2012)

Mr Happy said:


> That was very lucky. Someone on this forum charged a Saft 14500 thinking it was a lithium ion cell and as I recall it exploded so violently it near destroyed his kitchen.



A guy was charging a NiCd battery from his battery drill a few suburbs from me, the battery exploded in the shed, and the house went up with it shortly after that. The family was lucky enough to get out before the whole house came down...

Another story came from Motormouth magazine where one of the tech's was recharging a battery bank from a Toyota Prius - the batteries went 'poof' and near took his house down in the middle of the night also...

I've herd a few story with Lithiums - the battery university website "http://www.batteryuniversity.com/" may be a good lead to further study.


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## GordoJones88 (Jun 3, 2012)

well.


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## sxl168 (Jun 9, 2012)

Rumors of my death are greatly exaggerated! I've just been busy with other things. Recharging dead cells is most definitely pointless as I was never able to get them to accept all that much of a charge before they started trying to self discharge via dendrites. I still have those tested cells outside in that box yet and show no signs of leakage or deformation and they are sitting at about 1.6 volts but not much capacity. I just got ahold of a recent set though from an old light that someone tossed out and they are 1.68 volts open circuit which should be >50% charge. I'm going to try charging one of those and see what it does.


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## sxl168 (Jun 9, 2012)

Oops, I meant to say the cells are reading 1.76 volts OC which is nearly fully charged and upon trying the first cell at 60 mA, it charged to 2.1 volts in an hour, so these are indeed new cells I got ahold of for free...a great find! I'm not going to bother with trying to charge the remaining ones.


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## HighlanderNorth (Jun 11, 2012)

Wreck3r said:


> The members who do not have any constructive posts should not waste their time and the OPs by writing on this topic. It has been said that there are safety issues and no useful information can come out of it so stop repeating the same things.
> 
> The OP agrees with the safety issues and clearly wants to know if the data collected is useful or not. He has taken the necessary precautions to avoid injury to himself and to others. Why post time and time again that this is dangerous is beyond my comprehension.
> 
> Be constructive or don't post.




Actually, I see it as being VERY constructive to tell someone not to do something dangerous. If if they dont get it the first time, then maybe they need to be told again. Its called "harm reduction." If I see a thread where people are talking about "experimenting" with "bath salts" or other research chemicals, I'd hope that everyone who reads it tells that person NOT TO DO IT! Often redundancy is a good thing. Apparently its necessary in this case too......

Dont you and the guy who posted the OP think that just maybe the battery companies have already looked into this? Wouldnt you assume that they would be recharging Lithium batteries if they thought it was a great idea, and very safe? It stands to reason that they DONT do this for justifiable reasons. 

There are plenty of safe experiments you can try on youtube.


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## magellan (Aug 26, 2015)

Just discovered this old thread looking for information on lithium ion primaries. Interesting thread, especially the stuff on recharging and the accidents.


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## daan_deurloo (Aug 26, 2015)

Well i had tried to recharge Primary Lithium batteries once and yes they did heat up, even after they got taken out of the charger. But they didn't vent with flame tho. They both did read 0v under load and about 1.5~1.6v Open Circuit. I did took out the insides ( Lithium metal ) to use with water which gives a nice reaction. Still have 2 Lithium primary's in my keyboard now for a year. I may gonna recharge them anywhere soon on NiZn mode ( 1.9v termination ). And 63ma at the last stage of charging. Starts out with 750ma, then 255ma.


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## more_vampires (Aug 26, 2015)

sxl168 said:


> 2 Energizer Ultimate Lithium cells from his portable GPS unit that he had drained and I figured I would do some research and experimentation. I measured the voltage on each cell and one of them was completely dead at 1.5 volts open circuit and dropped to 0 under load. The other was at 1.65 volts yet and was still able to produce a bit of current yet.
> ...
> The mostly dead cell charged up mirroring the discharge curve and terminated after 6 days, which indicates that nearly the entire cell capacity went in. The completely discharged cell was charging up at 0.1 to 0.2 volts higher than the other one and it was fluctuating where it would increase and then decrease, increase, decrease in voltage over and over again as it charged. After 7 days, this cell too finally charged up, but I think its suffering from partial internal leakage as the OCV slowly decreases over time over several days from 2.25 volts to 2.0 volts.



OP, you are describing a lithium battery concept often referred to as a "mismatched set." You might get away using them separately, but they are now unsuitable to be paired in a circuit.



jtr1962 said:


> One time I experimented with charging lithium primaries.
> ...
> I was holding the cells while I was touching a wire to them. As I'm touching a wire to one cell, I notice a red glow right around the seal on the positive end. Time enough to drop the cell and close my eyes before it popped. There was a loud bang, like a firecracker, and my workroom filled with white smoke. For a minute I thought I was blind, at least until I went out of the room, washed my face, and opened my eyes. When the smoke cleared, there was some black stuff on the ceiling. I found the can of the cell intact, but completely empty. After that experience, I'm not even keen on using regular Li-ions. LiFePO4 cells are my preferred choice nowadays.


JTR is describing what's going to happen to a mismatched set. One battery dies first (mismatched capacity) and the other battery goes into "reverse charge mode."

This leads to smoke, fire, and lung damage. Don't breathe the smoke, glad OP is doing it outside. I wouldn't bring those batteries indoors, ever... IMHO.

When you blow a lithium-anything battery indoors, you're actually supposed to call HAZMAT. There is an airborne hazard.

Stay safe everyone. This seems rather a dangerous topic.


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## daan_deurloo (Aug 27, 2015)

Just took out my 2 Lithium batteries out of my keyboard and my charger recognized them as NiZn and charger did read 1,75V on both and did took a few seconds to reach 1,88v ( max ). So they were still full.

Recharging depleted lithium batteries ? Please don't do that. They will heat up after about 10 seconds ( Experience ). Even after they have been taken out of the charger. Since they were fully depleted, they didn't have any chance to vent with a flame.


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## RCM (Aug 27, 2015)

daan_deurloo said:


> Just took out my 2 Lithium batteries out of my keyboard and my charger recognized them as NiZn and charger did read 1,75V on both and did took a few seconds to reach 1,88v ( max ).


Even though it was only a few seconds, I wouldn't use them now...


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## more_vampires (Aug 27, 2015)

RCM said:


> Even though it was only a few seconds, I wouldn't use them now...


I agree. This is a known "bad to do" thing.


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## daan_deurloo (Aug 27, 2015)

Believe me i've done this earlier and nothing happened at all ( If they are not depleted, but somewhere at around 1,7v. I'm planning to use NiMh batteries in the keyboard tho.


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## RCM (Aug 27, 2015)

daan_deurloo said:


> Believe me i've done this earlier and nothing happened at all ( If they are not depleted, but somewhere at around 1,7v. I'm planning to use NiMh batteries in the keyboard tho.


You got lucky..I wouldn't trust them for something high drain now


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## ForrestChump (Aug 27, 2015)

I can see if people want to "experiment", thats fine.

Although to do this and use anything that was involved in an "experiment", in a normal operating capacity, is a ridiculously unwise decision, to put it nicely.


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## more_vampires (Aug 27, 2015)

daan_deurloo said:


> Believe me i've done this earlier and nothing happened at all


Respectfully sir, this is a logical fallacy. Doing known dangerous things is not safe because nothing has happened yet... *to you.

*http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/primary_batteriesBattery University points out that lithium primaries have MORE energy packed into them than lithium-ion rechargeable secondaries. We know that lions can burst and do damage. Bursting lithium primaries can cause even more damage. BU says they are not rechargeable. IMHO, recharging primaries is like playing Russian Roulette.

Batteries are cheap. Your eyeballs and lungs are expensive.



ForrestChump said:


> I can see if people want to "experiment", thats fine.
> Although to do this and use anything that was involved in an "experiment", in a normal operating capacity, is a ridiculously unwise decision, to put it nicely.


FC and I agree 1000%.


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## daan_deurloo (Aug 27, 2015)

They were not cheap at all. I can get a Lithium Ion cell for that for cheaper price ( and a known brand ).

These cells i had are about €9,- for 4 pieces.


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## RCM (Aug 27, 2015)

more_vampires said:


> Respectfully sir, this is a logical fallacy. Doing known dangerous things is not safe because nothing has happened yet... *to you.
> 
> *http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/primary_batteriesBattery University points out that lithium primaries have MORE energy packed into them than lithium-ion rechargeable secondaries. We know that lions can burst and do damage. Bursting lithium primaries can cause even more damage. BU says they are not rechargeable. IMHO, recharging primaries is like playing Russian Roulette.
> 
> ...


Also not a good idea to give newbies to lithium primary cells ideas like this


daan_deurloo said:


> They were not cheap at all. I can get a Lithium Ion cell for that for cheaper price ( and a known brand ).


Just becauase they weren't cheap doesn't mean it's a good idea, just don't do it or you risk a violent vent


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## daan_deurloo (Aug 27, 2015)

I've seen a couple video's were a Lithium batteries vent. So ye i know what can happen if they runaway.


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## RCM (Aug 27, 2015)

daan_deurloo said:


> I've seen a couple video's were a Lithium batteries vent. So ye i know what can happen if they runaway.


And you are risking that by trying that


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## more_vampires (Aug 27, 2015)

daan_deurloo said:


> They were not cheap at all. I can get a Lithium Ion cell for that for cheaper price ( and a known brand ).
> 
> These cells i had are about €9,- for 4 pieces.


I view the Energizer Ultimate Lithiums as cheap for what you get based on this:
1. No alkaline leaks, pays for itself in saving one single light by not leaking.
2. Lighter weight, carry more.
3. Cold tolerance, relaxed storage.
4. Energy density and capacity
5. Price per energy unit
6. Top notch shelf life.
7. Quality product.
In cost per energy, they aren't really expensive.



daan_deurloo said:


> I've seen a couple video's were a Lithium batteries vent. So ye i know what can happen if they runaway.


Did the videos explain how you should expose yourself to the vent gasses?

Read the threads about people getting hurt in a vent scenario? It can be pretty bad, sir. Take care.


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## ForrestChump (Aug 27, 2015)

This topic is like putting a carseat in the front. You just don't do it.


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## RCM (Aug 27, 2015)

ForrestChump said:


> This topic is like putting a carseat in the front. You just don't do it.


The OP did a controlled experiment..daan_deurloo is risking a LOT by trying it!


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## more_vampires (Aug 27, 2015)

ForrestChump said:


> This topic is like putting a carseat in the front. You just don't do it.


My vehicle has an airbag cutoff just for that. Unfortunately, it does add an additional point of failure in a safety device. It's a feature that caters to people who don't know or care about crash test data and the front seat wrt child's car seats.

Good point, sir. This thread is exactly like that. I'm all for hacking, but knowing how to do it safely is like remembering to cut off the airbags 100% of the time without failure. Humans are lousy at 100%, even 99% is like walking on water.


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## daan_deurloo (Aug 27, 2015)

RCM said:


> The OP did a controlled experiment..daan_deurloo is risking a LOT by trying it!



Untill it goes wrong at one time. I'd like to experience a venting lithium batteries. I MAY gonna do that at the last day of this year ( Outside ). I had vent Alkalines few times, but that's nothing compared to a lithium battery.

I also carry Lithium Ion batteries with me while travelling, but i do cover the Plus and minus pole to prevent short circuit when not in use.


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## Raysbeam (Aug 27, 2015)

RCM said:


> And you are risking that by trying that



Agree, what is the point of the experiment? They make rechargeable batteries, why not experiment with them. If you want them to vent you could just short circuit them and watch them blow. I'm not recommending this though.


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## more_vampires (Aug 27, 2015)

Firecrackers are cheaper and safer. You can get hundreds for the same price. Hundreds.


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## RCM (Aug 27, 2015)

Raysbeam said:


> Agree, what is the point of the experiment? They make rechargeable batteries, why not experiment with them. If you want them to vent you could just short circuit them and watch them blow. I'm not recommending this though.


NiMH vents hydrogen, lithium ion and primaries vent hydrogen fluoride, which when inhaled converts to hydrofluoric acid. If he wants to he can inhale it, but it can be deadly!


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## WarRaven (Aug 27, 2015)

Hydrogen is fun... Err, no, it's not.
Disregard.


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## ForrestChump (Aug 27, 2015)

daan_deurloo said:


> Untill *it goes wrong at one time. I'd like to experience a venting lithium batteries. I MAY gonna do that at the last day of this year ( Outside ).* I had vent Alkalines few times, but that's nothing compared to a lithium battery.
> 
> I also carry Lithium Ion batteries with me while travelling, but i do cover the Plus and minus pole to prevent short circuit when not in use.




This is a poor choice. The potential consequences FAR exceed anything you might "learn" from doing such a thing. You're not Stevo, you don't have a 10 gabillion dollar insurance policy to replace your lungs. *We are telling you not too as we don't want to see you hurt.* Imagine a lifetime of hospital visits, nausea, limited travel, and planning out how you approach a flight of stairs. Thats just the lung part, not to mention fingers, an eye.... Ever try to pick up a chick when you have a trachea hanging out of your neck to help you breath? It doesn't exactly increase your odds of getting a her phone number. 

Thats about it, I don't think a whole thread begging him not to do it is a good thing as it draws attention. I have a feeling that this is a desired result from some posters.

If he insists, fine.


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## marinemaster (Aug 27, 2015)

To the original OP:
There is Nothing controlled about this, you have the false security of calling it "controlled" 
Reality will hit you really hard when the insurance company will not pay thousands of dollars of potential material damages or severe body injury. You need to stop this.


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## RCM (Aug 27, 2015)

marinemaster said:


> There is Nothing controlled about this, you have the false security of calling it " "controlled"
> Reality will hit you really hard when the insurance company will not pay thousands of dollars of potential material damages or severe body injury. You need to stop this.


They especially won't cover it if they see this thread after we all told him to stop! Him doing it outside still isn't controlled enough! He needs a lot more then that!


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## ForrestChump (Aug 27, 2015)

He's gonna do what he's gonna do. We told him.


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## WarRaven (Aug 27, 2015)

ffffFFOOOOOMmm...

Aliens are right, we not brightest solar system in galaxy.
Expect to be vapo...


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## marinemaster (Aug 27, 2015)

Lololololo, good one [emoji95]


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## Mr Floppy (Aug 28, 2015)

ForrestChump said:


> He's gonna do what he's gonna do. We told him.



Told him in your delorean? 

Three years later, don't think he's been back. Agatha Christie, it's a mystery


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## WalkIntoTheLight (Aug 28, 2015)

Hi, I'm just reading over this thread, and am unsure on whether or not this could be dangerous. Could somebody please post if this is a safe thing to do?


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## KeepingItLight (Aug 28, 2015)

WalkIntoTheLight said:


> Hi, I'm just reading over this thread, and am unsure on whether or not this could be dangerous. Could somebody please post if this is a safe thing to do?




Like you, I'm confused. If this is dangerous, I wish somebody would just say so.

I get these strange urges... I think I need to recharge a lithium primary.


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## KeepingItLight (Aug 28, 2015)

Okay, just kidding. Nobody at home should do that. It's BAD!


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## MidnightDistortions (Aug 28, 2015)

daan_deurloo said:


> Untill it goes wrong at one time. I'd like to experience a venting lithium batteries. I MAY gonna do that at the last day of this year ( Outside ). I had vent Alkalines few times, but that's nothing compared to a lithium battery.
> 
> I also carry Lithium Ion batteries with me while travelling, but i do cover the Plus and minus pole to prevent short circuit when not in use.



Just, no... you never want to vent a lithium battery or a li-ion for that matter.

Anyway if you can recharge lithium primaries without them venting that would be great, but as the OP has mentioned (which is an old topic by the way) he has taken precautions when doing this experiment. If you are trying to do this in your basement with no ventilation or any other protection then do not do this. Ideally i would only do this if i had a hazmat suit and a way to safely disperse any venting.


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## WalkIntoTheLight (Aug 28, 2015)

My, God! You'd think he was building a nuclear bomb or something!


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## LedTed (Aug 28, 2015)

I'm still stuck on the OP’s assumption of dendritic shorts forming. How would dendrites grow without moisture, in the tube of a backfilled battery? Wouldn't that half of the mechanism be missing?


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## more_vampires (Aug 28, 2015)

KeepingItLight said:


> Like you, I'm confused. If this is dangerous, I wish somebody would just say so.
> 
> I get these strange urges... I think I need to recharge a lithium primary.


From what I understand, since they're not designed to be recharged, that the resting voltages increases. Perhaps part of this is the nature of someone who would try this, not just recharging non-rechargeables but OVERCHARGING at that.

From what I understand, the closer they get to kapow, the more energy they start holding as they prepare to fail catastrophically. Multiple cells in the circuit only compound the problem, dramatically.


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## ForrestChump (Aug 28, 2015)

Mr Floppy said:


> Told him in your delorean?
> 
> Three years later, don't think he's been back. Agatha Christie, it's a mystery



I actually sprung for the current model. I didn't care for the 2025.


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## Mr Floppy (Aug 29, 2015)

ForrestChump said:


> I actually sprung for the current model. I didn't care for the 2025



Does the flux capacitor still need 1.21 gigawatt?


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## SemiMan (Aug 29, 2015)

WalkIntoTheLight said:


> My, God! You'd think he was building a nuclear bomb or something!




Sung to the tune of .....Frozen Ghost, "Should I see"

--------------------------------------------------
Quoting Battery University as you discuss
What is right and wrong for us
You inundate us with your views
You take away my right to choose
--------------------------------------------------

It's almost laughable the pile on, most of whose "knowledge" in this matter is not much more than anecdotal and what they have read. I am not saying it's safe, but the OP did take precautions, and after the first one of two warning posts, nothing new was added and people just piled on.


.... I wonder how many of the "pile ons" fit into one of these "risk" categories

Smoke
Overweight
Ride a Motorcycle
Drive excessively over the speed limit


..... guessing at least 1.


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## ForrestChump (Aug 29, 2015)

................


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## ForrestChump (Aug 29, 2015)

SemiMan;4724289[/QUOTE said:


> Overweight
> Ride a Motorcycle
> Drive excessively over the speed limit
> 
> ...



I fit in all 3, and I drive a DeLorean ( the last one is on a closed course for safety obviously ), still don't mess with recharging non recharbale cells. ( We are only about 3 years away from an alternate power source that was discovered by accident. It makes all batteries obsolete, flashlights have these power sources built in and are of a unibody design eliminating the battery tube. They also run indefinitely but the max lumens are limited to 1,000 due to power restraints by the new tech, they are working on this. If you think thats exciting you should see what eventually supersedes the LED....( I'd elaborate but don't wan't to ruin the surprise. )



Mr Floppy said:


> Does the flux capacitor still need 1.21 gigawatt?



Flux capacitor? We are WAY past that. The 2025 version I saw uses nano tech, there aren't even wheels on it anymore thats why I went a little more classic with the "current" model. Basically the body of the car functions like the hover board only with nano sized magnetic "jets" that operate off the magnetic pull of the north and south pole.. They are completely self contained and in theory could run forever due to the lack of moving parts and limitless fuel supply ( this is the hardest part to explain but thats the simplest I can do . ) No need for engines or wheels. They're so small they appear like "paint" not that DeLorean would ever go that route. The stainless steel has been swapped out for carbontanium. You won't here about this for another 10 years or so but to put it very simply, it's essentially a carbon fiber hybrid with what they call nano Ti which is like an adhesive that holds it together. It's stronger than titanium or steel but the 2025 comes in at an unprecedented 150 pounds.... you can literally bench press it. The car can reach 0-88 MPH in approximately 1/16th of a second, but obviously the people inside don't respond so well, so they throttled it to a more comfortable 0-88 in 2.25 seconds. The main "engine" part for time travel.... The only way I can describe it is it's like a Blendtec.....there is no "fuel" for this specific part as it's powered by the exterior Nano jets, it's ruffly the size of the original iPod, the inside spins unprecedentedly fast...like _really fast_.... "They named it "SJ" after Steve Jobs....Apologies but I don't have any more particulars on how it exactly functions, Im not knowledgable enough to thoroughly explain that component. So if you think about it, it's like the opposite of the older DeLorean, the outside drives the inside SJ capacitor to bend time. Maybe next time Im there I'll grab a brochure but they are very picky with what you bring "back" so I'll try my best... 

Morale of the story? *DO NOT RECHARGE NON RECHARGABLE CELLS. THIS IS NOT SMART.*


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## SemiMan (Aug 30, 2015)

Diabetes will seriously injure or kill 1/10 to 1/20 of all Americans. I would worry a lot less about someone recharging non rechargeable batteries and more about what he eats or drives.... Both far more likely to injure or kill him.

This is the forest for the trees principle. Nitpick little issues and ignore big ones. It's a popular political tactic too


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## ForrestChump (Aug 30, 2015)

9 out of 10 cases of diabetes is type 2, which for the most part, is completely preventable. 

1.8% of people die per year in auto collisions. Simply wearing a seatbelt reduces chances of death by 45%.

Purposely recharging non rechargeable batteries is 100% preventable. Risk of health related injuries from avoiding such practice is 0%.


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## daan_deurloo (Aug 30, 2015)

I still do recharge alkalines sometimes if they are at around 1,35~1,4v. Lower then that will simply not work at all on my charger. Do they leak ? Most of the time not. Duracells do leak after a unknown time . Others don't leak that fast. Charging alkalines to 1,9v ? yes that does work aslong you keep an eye on the battery temp. If it is warm ? then stop the charge.

Lithiums are no go


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## ForrestChump (Aug 30, 2015)

meh..... Im all done here.

This is akin to taking flaming shots of vodka at the bar..... 

I just get my fifth at the store and go home.


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## SemiMan (Aug 30, 2015)

Reviewing your posts I don't believe you have added anything to the conversation. You being "done" is supposed to mean what?


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## ForrestChump (Aug 30, 2015)

SemiMan said:


> \
> It's almost laughable the pile on
> .... I wonder how many of the "pile ons" fit into one of these "risk" categories.





SemiMan said:


> Diabetes will seriously injure or kill 1/10 to 1/20 of all Americans. I would worry a lot less about someone recharging non rechargeable batteries and more about what he eats or drives.... Both far more likely to injure or kill him.





SemiMan said:


> Reviewing your posts I don't believe you have added anything to the conversation. You being "done" is supposed to mean what?



Your insight and contributions are remarkable. 2 out of 3 posts you're trolling, the middle one is about as relevant to the topic as cat hair and as a general rule of thumb people usually leave sources to back up figures like that. I don't know what you're all butt hurt about today, but it's got nothing to do with me or the other posters in this thread.


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## SemiMan (Aug 31, 2015)

ForrestChump said:


> Your insight and contributions are remarkable. 2 out of 3 posts you're trolling, the middle one is about as relevant to the topic as cat hair and as a general rule of thumb people usually leave sources to back up figures like that. I don't know what you're all butt hurt about today, but it's got nothing to do with me or the other posters in this thread.



Anyone can read what you added to the thread ForrestChump, which was just to parrot others and puff your chest. The point of being what?

Perhaps you did not even read the thread title, "...... Controlled Experiments". The Op went to great lengths to ensure safety of the experiment ... and yet you and others still felt the need to express your "uber" knowledge about the dangers, which the OP was obviously aware of given how he did the experiment. 

I learned something from the OP ... didn't learn anything from you. Op was seeking knowledge (that's what experiments, even dangerous ones are for). I would expect that Energizer has done a ton of experiments on these batteries with a variety of chargers just to see what will happen. I imagine they have sat in a ton of NiMh/NiCd chargers and perhaps even NiZn chargers, though they are rare. 

My posts at least sought to quantify the risk, which in the big scheme of things is very small compared to how most people go about their daily lives, and perhaps putting it into perspective should have been valuable for some even if not for you. I as well as a few others thought the "pile-on" was rather comical, and not in a good way. 

I am sorry that you did not accomplish your goal of suppressing the op, and having everyone agree with you. Your disappointment was obvious when you stated, "meh..... Im all done here."

Have a good day.

To the op, contrary to what was posted, you actually could do a destructive tear down of the batteries, to see what the impact of discharge / charging is. Examination of the plates under a microscope would certainly be revealing, though I expect you would need more resolution and wavelengths than the hobbyist may have access to. Though based on others teardowns of these batteries (they are popular for lithium harvesting), the risk of flaming is low to none, I would still be careful in teardown ... outside, gloves/glasses. Painting respirators work quite well, and well not to the filtering of a gas mask, are quite effective and every orange and blue store has them.

I was prompted to do some research and there does seem to be work on lithium iron disulphide rechargeable batteries. Not ready for prime time, but certainly in the works.


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## ForrestChump (Aug 31, 2015)

SemiMan said:


> Anyone can read what you added to the thread ForrestChump, *which was just to parrot others and puff your chest.* The point of being what?
> 
> *I am sorry that you did not accomplish your goal of suppressing the op, and having everyone agree with you.* *Your disappointment was obvious when you stated, "meh..... Im all done here."*
> 
> Have a good day.



*None of this makes sense to me....* and I rather not waste the time breaking it down for you. Your post to me was rude, your posts before that come off as arrogant and dismissive to other posters. I don't see the point of randomly putting people down when they post something Im not in total agreement with.....

_I'm_ "chest puffing"......


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## SemiMan (Aug 31, 2015)

After let's see, 15-20 posts already pointing out it was dangerous, (necroposting at that -- 3 year old thread), you jumped in with that great bit of wisdom, "This topic is like putting a carseat in the front. You just don't do it.".

Somewhere along the way, I agreed with the sarcastic post that was made to the doomsayers that you would think he was making a nuclear bomb. I put into perspective that a large portion of the population does "dumb" things that will absolutely cut their lives short, which on a risk scale is far worse than the original ops controlled experiment. This was not directed at anyone in particular, just the people piling on to the original assessment that this was dangerous.

You decided to take on my analogy by really adding nothing other than the risk is 0 if you don't do the experiment ... which adds nothing to the at that point 30+ posts saying it's dangerous ... which was already covered many times and years ago. Well guess what, the knowledge gain is also 0. 

You consider my post rude. Guess what, after 20, 30 ... posts that say it is dangerous, adding more is rude and condescending, especially when adding nothing new to the conversation.


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## WarRaven (Aug 31, 2015)

Well I got me a fine wife,... I got me an old fiddle..

When the sun's coming up I got cakes on the griddle,

Life ain't nothing but a funny funny riddle...

Thank god I'm a flashaholic boy!


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## ForrestChump (Aug 31, 2015)

WarRaven said:


> Well I got me a fine wife,... I got me an old fiddle..
> 
> When the sun's coming up I got cakes on the griddle,
> 
> ...




Well I got fine wine......... and a new riddle,

What to do when the moon rises & you can't find your fiddle?

Life ain't nothing but a scary, lonely ride,

Man can hide from many things....except for his pride.


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## SilverFox (Aug 31, 2015)

I think this topic has been pretty well covered...

Thread closed.

Tom


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