# Polymer Plastic (Nitrolon) flashlights vs. Aluminum



## moerush04 (Aug 7, 2011)

I scoured the CPF database and could not come up with much that talks about this topic. Why are most flashlights these days still mostly made of metal instead of plastic like some of the Surefire lights? I want to get your opinions on this topic. Modern handguns and assault rifles are made of as many plastic polymer parts as they can. At first the gun advocates shunned the 'tupperware' guns. But history has proven, polymer has become the 'standard' of which most guns are made of now. Why not flashlights too? Here is my take.

I think the integration of polymer or Nitrolon (I guess they call it) into the Surefire G2X type lights are close to what what the future flashlights will look like. The tailcap, and battery tube are made of polymer plastic, the head may still be made of aluminum to dissipate heat, and the bezel is also made of polymer. 

1. Polymer does not scratch as easily as aluminum. The type of aluminum all of my lights are made of has no malleability at all, the smallest force that causes it to deform is permanent. Polymers 'bounce back'. A light that has plastic will absorb much more shock than a light made of aluminum. And that's not to say that there would not be aftermarket stainless steel bezels, tailcaps, whatever. Or if the light comes with metal parts that you could get plastic aftermarket parts.

2. When a polymer is scratched, it does not expose the natural color of the material because the surface color of the polymer is its natural color. So no worrying about scratching off the finish or paint. Aluminum, even with the type III hard anodizing still scratches. Every one of my metal lights has a ding exposing the bare aluminum. It is hard to avoid, unless it spends most of its time on the display shelf. For those of us who use our lights every day, it is hard to avoid. All the dings and scratches give the light a beat up look, or a nice patina depending on how you look at it. Either way it does not look factory new after a few months of use.

3. Polymer lights are much lighter than aluminum lights.
4. I am speculating, but I am guessing that manufacturing plastic light parts has to be cheaper than turning an aluminum part on a lathe or machine.
5. Battery rattle in a plastic light will not be nearly as noticeable as in a metal one.
6. Do threaded plastic parts need O-rings to be water tight? This one I do not know but am trying to stir up more support for my theory. 

Again, I know the idea or plastic polymer lights might seem like blasphemy to a lot of people who simply cannot imagine a 'tupperware' flashlight. It is just some food for thought/discussion. I personally like the metal light for reasons that echo some of the same reasons gun owners might prefer metal over polymer. I like the feeling of the metal in my hand. It feels solid. A lot more craftsmanship goes into making metal parts. 

Does polymer plastic dissipate heat as well as metal? Do you think if an all polymer light was made (besides the electronics for all you jokesters), would the head still need to be made of metal for heat dissipation? I Think because of that and because polymer is malleable it will deform under pressure and might not protect the circuitry as well as aluminum, it would be best for the head to be metal. 

As you can see, I have been pondering this topic for a while and look forward your thoughts on this matter. Thanks in advance. 
Dan

Edit: My apologies, this thread might be more appropriate in the 'general flashlight' forum. Moderators please do not penalize me for this mistake, I did not realize it until after I opened the thread.


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## BBL (Aug 7, 2011)

I agree. From a rational point of view, polymer should be the first choice for any normal-sized flashlight. And i dont understand why they carry plastic rifles with attached aluminium surefires. Probably too much money to spend...
When it comes to civilian buyers, theres often the 'toy aspect' - an aluminium flashlight is just more appealing than a plastic one.


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## Lynx_Arc (Aug 7, 2011)

Two big reasons polymer lights are less popular
1)They don't conduct heat away from the LED emitter well at all which makes for lights that cannot match high output LED lights.
2)It is easier to mill aluminum into a tube than it is to set up custom molds for plastic lights so the setup and development cost of metal lights is a lot cheaper with a lot quicker time to market.
I light polymer based lights myself but LEDs need to get more efficient to let plastic shine brighter.


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## kramer5150 (Aug 7, 2011)

Plastics are thermal insulators, so they can't be used effectively in high current LED designs.
Many plastics can melt under extreme temperatures. So they are not the best choice for high output incans. Plastic mold tooling is more costly to tool up, versus milling, spinning and cutting Aluminum.

Lower current / cool running lights however can/do use plastics very effectively.

2 of my fave lights are a SF-G2 incan and LD25, both make use of thermo-formed plastics. They are GREAT cold/wet winter lights, when Aluminum chills the hands. Neither however are required to withstand high temperatures, or sink a lot of heat away from the LED....






Both lights are water submersible (G2 O-ring gaskets pictured)


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## geckoblink (Aug 7, 2011)

Like Lynx_Arc said, heat dissipation is the big issue. For my own part, I really love my all Nitrolon G2 with Malkoff M61LL. That dropin doesn't even heat up the Nitrolon head at all even after it runs 10+ hours straight.

Nitrolon + 100-ish lumens + long runtime = win.


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## peterharvey73 (Aug 7, 2011)

I agree, plastic is a very good material with excellent value for money, hence it is used in entry level lights esp those sold in supermarkets.

However, when it comes to *high quality *flashlights at *premium* prices, aluminium is used - it looks and feels more upmarket in the hands, and it helps in heat dissipation, but it is not lighter, nor more scratch resistant, nor more durable, nor cheaper to manufacture.

Really really premium flashlights use titanium - looks great, but practicality wise, it is actually too heavy, the fully polished titanium surface is very slippery in the hand, and poor heat dissipation too...


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## tam17 (Aug 7, 2011)

This was a hot topic some 30(ish) years ago in a small arms community, after a relatively unknown European manufacturer decided to introduce large reinforced polymer components into a handgun design.

Opponents of plastic materials were bragging about mechanical and thermal stress, unpredictable long-term fatigue properties, resistance to cleaners/lubricants and other chemicals, w/e.

Nevertheless, plastics proved to be up to the task, and Glock designers are today praised as visionaries and trend-setters. Just my EUR 0.02

Cheers,

Tam


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## StandardBattery (Aug 7, 2011)

The main reasons have already been stated. As LEDs become more efficient (less heat) though look for flashlights used in demanding applications to use more Polymers. Streemlight is also making several polymer based lights and have been for quite a while. Most people for EDC though don't need the top in performance so for smaller EDC lights the average person is not dependant on the performance characteristics of the build material and eastetics will probably always win out. 

For my car light I was using G2, that had a failure (it was the drop-in), so I had switched back to MD2, TK-11 and Jetbeam III-M; now I'm back to the polymer G2Z in OD and I like it. I really light the polymer lights for applications where there is a good chance it could get dropped, kicked, smucked or where weather extremes can be expected. Luckily that's not the case with my EDC light where the weight of stainless steel is less of an issue to get the robustness I need in my keychain light. 

Once it's easy to address the heat and electrical characteristics needed, and the manufacturing volume warrants it, I'm sure we'll see some good, and nice lookin', polymer designs.


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## Pandorum (Aug 7, 2011)

I once was a big fan of polymers but lately not so much anymore.
I believe they are inherently less stable over time than their metal counterparts, aluminum and stainless steel.


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## gcbryan (Aug 7, 2011)

Yes, o-rings are still needed. As a matter of fact I think aluminum threaded lights with a proper o-ring are easier to waterproof. I'm not a machinist but I am a diver and I've found small aluminum lights seem easier to mod for diving than small plastic ones. I think (with the right light) threads can be made finer in aluminum than in plastic.

That may not be fact but it is my experience. Both make good dive lights however.

I'd prefer a plastic (Delrin type) light for its lighter weight. To dissipate head I think in general you need an aluminum head and with higher powered designs you might need a hybrid such as metal strips running down the sides to a metal tail cap or some way to transfer the head.

Underwater Kinetics makes recreational dive lights and they have a fairly high powered one where they use the recoil design and mount the emitter and head sink through the front lens. At that point water does the cooling of course but you have to move the heat to the outside of the body for that to be able to happen.

I think with volume it's probably cheaper to mold plastic than machine aluminum but for smaller numbers it's probably the reverse.

With outdoor headlamps (hiking/camping) plastic is common even on reasonably expensive lights You don't have to worry about corrosion with plastic. You have more options with different shapes and lighter weight of course.

I'm sure more lights will be made from plastic in the future.


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## duro (Aug 7, 2011)

As far as heat dissipation goes, polymer lights could have an aluminum insert? Just like with polymer handguns, steel inserts are used (mainly for the contact between the slide and the frame.)

So, polymer lights could very well be used with higher leds provided there is an aluminum insert. So I guess it would have to come down to more design implementations, and retooling.


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## duro (Aug 7, 2011)

Oh, in case you're wondering. Steel inserts have nothing to do with heat dissipation, but friction rather. Although for hand guards for polymer rifles, there are aluminum, or steel inserts that protect the users hand from heat, and of course the polymer melting from the heat of the barrel. So yeah. It could be done for flashlights. Main reason again, seems like cost to manufacture.


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## Th232 (Aug 7, 2011)

The problem with a metal insert of some kind is that you've still got to get the heat from inside the light to the outside and then to the surrounding air. If I'm reading you right (I know nothing about polymer handguns) there'll still be a layer of polymer over the metal, so you'll still have a good amount of heat building up inside it.


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## jh333233 (Aug 7, 2011)

Some say G2 has the LOWEST water resistance in SF's caterlog


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## afdk (Aug 7, 2011)

:huh:I have wrote about this about one year ago. The first lights I bought were Underwater Kinitics polymer and have proven to be very reliable. Their LED lights are not as bright, but meet all safety requirments. I still keep one of the lights in my car loaded with AA lithium primary cells. It's 45 lumen output is fine for most car situations and runs a long time.


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## GaAslamp (Aug 7, 2011)

moerush04 said:


> Modern handguns and assault rifles are made of as many plastic polymer parts as they can.



The frames and stocks of firearms (and occasionally some other external parts such as triggers) are made out of plastic to save on weight and cost, as well as improve their environmental resilience, but there are trade-offs in many cases. For example, plastic-framed semiautos, due to their lower inertia, are generally more prone to "limp-wristing," which can induce malfunctions when used by those who are relatively inexperienced (or have weak hands, wrists, and arms); recoil is typically harsher as well.



moerush04 said:


> At first the gun advocates shunned the 'tupperware' guns. But history has proven, polymer has become the 'standard' of which most guns are made of now. Why not flashlights too?



Many still do shun them because let's face it, plastic looks and feels cheesy and cheap--that's why they're still disparagingly called "combat tupperware." They're *A* standard that many people--law enforcement officers, private citizens, and some military alike--use for utilitarian purposes, but they're certainly not *THE* standard when it comes to judging the quality of firearms, particularly with regard to handguns. In fact, some of the factors that led to the popularity of plastic handguns, such as their reputation for reliability, have nothing to do with the plastic--like so many other things, the market was largely shaped by timing and happenstance (and the lower cost of molded plastic).

Don't get me wrong, my primary self-defense sidearm happens to be a plastic-framed pistol (M&P40) because it's extremely reliable and practical, but the plastic is still awfully cheesy--it's an ugly tool for an ugly purpose, but it gets the job done and the price was right. If I had paid a premium for it, then I'd expect something nicer, and some people feel the same about flashlights (as I'm sure you're aware--I'm just pointing it out for my argument).



moerush04 said:


> I think the integration of polymer or Nitrolon (I guess they call it)



Polymer is a rather broad term, but for the purposes of this discussion it's a euphemism for plastic. Nitrolon specifically appears to be a glass-plastic composite, which in the common vernacular is fiberglass. All we really need to be concerned about is that it's a particularly tough plastic that is tailored for its purpose.



moerush04 said:


> into the Surefire G2X type lights are close to what what the future flashlights will look like. The tailcap, and battery tube are made of polymer plastic, the head may still be made of aluminum to dissipate heat, and the bezel is also made of polymer.



It would be better to have the whole flashlight's body (and ultimately the user's body) act as a heat sink in order to dissipate heat far more rapidly. Plastics are superior for handguns in this respect since they help keep heat away from one's hands, but they are generally inferior for today's high-powered LED-based flashlights, since LEDs are so fragile when it comes to heat.



moerush04 said:


> 1. Polymer does not scratch as easily as aluminum. The type of aluminum all of my lights are made of has no malleability at all, the smallest force that causes it to deform is permanent. Polymers 'bounce back'. A light that has plastic will absorb much more shock than a light made of aluminum. And that's not to say that there would not be aftermarket stainless steel bezels, tailcaps, whatever. Or if the light comes with metal parts that you could get plastic aftermarket parts.



There are advantages and disadvantages to every material that could be used, and I think that having a choice, based on the individual's intended purpose and personal taste if that's a factor, is a good thing.



moerush04 said:


> 2. When a polymer is scratched, it does not expose the natural color of the material because the surface color of the polymer is its natural color.



And some of those who worry about appearance may think that plastic is naturally ugly, scratched or otherwise. 



moerush04 said:


> So no worrying about scratching off the finish or paint. Aluminum, even with the type III hard anodizing still scratches. Every one of my metal lights has a ding exposing the bare aluminum. It is hard to avoid, unless it spends most of its time on the display shelf. For those of us who use our lights every day, it is hard to avoid. All the dings and scratches give the light a beat up look, or a nice patina depending on how you look at it. Either way it does not look factory new after a few months of use.



Yep, some people actually like the appearance of wear from real-world use, sort of like the holster wear that some gun owners constantly fret about while others appreciate.

That aside, I have plastic flashlights that look like crap because of hard use (they haven't changed in color, but the wear is still quite visible), and an old stainless steel flashlight that still looks great despite hard use. In analogy, some people prefer bare stainless steel guns, as well, because they don't show wear nearly as much as other materials and finishes. If the looks of tools that are actually used is important, then I think that bare stainless steel is the way to go (although you'll be paying a cost and weight penalty for it).



moerush04 said:


> 3. Polymer lights are much lighter than aluminum lights.



So they're easier to carry but less formidable as improvised weapons. 



moerush04 said:


> Again, I know the idea or plastic polymer lights might seem like blasphemy to a lot of people who simply cannot imagine a 'tupperware' flashlight. It is just some food for thought/discussion.



I get it, and you have made some valid points about the advantages of plastics, but as you yourself hinted at, every design and material has its good and bad points. I certainly think people should give plastic flashlights a chance, depending on what purposes they have in mind.


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## AaronG (Aug 7, 2011)

I personally have no ill feelings towards quality polymers. To most of the population plastic = cheap and poor quality. The biggest downfall that's already been mentioned though is poor heat transfer. All aluminium lights actually get warm right to the tail, so the whole body is a heatsink. Also most metal lights use the body as part of the circuit which allows for a secure connection and the smallest possible size.

The pluses of polymer are that it's more comfortable to hold in cold conditions and it doesn't cause damage to other things it bangs and scratches against.


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## kramer5150 (Aug 7, 2011)

duro said:


> *As far as heat dissipation goes, polymer lights could have an aluminum insert?* Just like with polymer handguns, steel inserts are used (mainly for the contact between the slide and the frame.)
> 
> So, polymer lights could very well be used with higher leds provided there is an aluminum insert. So I guess it would have to come down to more design implementations, and retooling.



Physically yes this works, as in the LD25 I pictured above. Its an aluminum light with a rubber/plastic grip molded around it. It works on the LD25 because it does not drive the XPG hard enough to generate that much heat.

So in a high heat design, thermally no... this won't work. Plastics historically have _*always*_ been thermal insulators (materials of high thermal resistance, that do not conduct heat). I am not aware of any plastics that have a low enough thermal resistance to be used as heatsink material.

Heatsinks work on principles of conduction and convective radiation... Aluminum serves as an optimal material for both elements. First the heat must be conducted away from the LED, the heat needs a low thermal resistance path to "move" heat away from the heat source (LED). Heat always travels from a hot body to a cold body. This is why heatsinks are always designed to be cooler than the object they are drawing heat from.

So once the heat is conducted away from the source (via the low resistance path), it now needs to be convectively radiated outwards to the surrounding air, otherwise you just have a heat trap... a constantly warming object. The most effective way to accomplish this is to directly radiate the heat off the Aluminum to the surrounding/adjacent air. Heat once again travels from the hot object to the cold object. In convection the hot object is the heatsink and the cold object is the surrounding air, so heat naturally exits the warm body.

So if you encapsulate the heatsink in a plastic thermal insulator, you are preventing convective radiation to the surrounding air, and trapping heat.


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## GaAslamp (Aug 7, 2011)

tam17 said:


> This was a hot topic some 30(ish) years ago in a small arms community, after a relatively unknown European manufacturer decided to introduce large reinforced polymer components into a handgun design.



Actually, Heckler & Koch, a well-known arms manufacturer, came up with the concept of a plastic-framed pistol, the VP70:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heckler_%26_Koch_VP70

It didn't succeed for various reasons, including marketing and other aspects of its design, but it was the first plastic-framed pistol by about 12 years.



tam17 said:


> Opponents of plastic materials were bragging about mechanical and thermal stress, unpredictable long-term fatigue properties, resistance to cleaners/lubricants and other chemicals, w/e.



As well they should have, since many things made of plastic, then and even still now, exhibited poor stability, particularly over time. One of my other hobbies is collecting fountain pens, most of which are made from various forms of plastic, and I can tell you from firsthand experience that their material stability is highly variable. For example, the legendary Parker "51" was made of an acrylic that seems virtually eternal, while its successor, the 61, was made of a cheaper polystyrene that usually shrank and cracked after 10-20 years, making it difficult to find intact specimens. Lest we think poorly of lowly polystyrene, however, I have several vintage Sheaffer fountain pens that are made of polystyrene, and they all look brand-new--no shrinking, cracking, or fading on any of them. Additionally, I've seen acrylic parts on other items degrade over time, so it's not just the type of material, but how it's made.



tam17 said:


> Nevertheless, plastics proved to be up to the task, and Glock designers are today praised as visionaries and trend-setters. Just my EUR 0.02



Plastic per se was hardly the selling point, though. Glock proved over time that it could be done practically, but the real selling points were low cost (partly due to the plastic frame and partly due to its simple design), relatively light weight (also due to the plastic), low cost, the simplicity and safety of its trigger system (although many still strongly contest this point), low cost, reliability (nothing to do with the plastic), low cost, high ammunition capacity (again, nothing to do with the plastic), and low cost.  Once they took over the market with low cost, ease of use, and high reliability--a compelling combination--obviously this paved the way for others to follow, but it's not because plastic is better, just cheaper.



Pandorum said:


> I once was a big fan of polymers but lately not so much anymore.
> I believe they are inherently less stable over time than their metal counterparts, aluminum and stainless steel.



As I explained above, it depends on the plastic and how it is made. We can say at this point that experience in the firearms community has shown that plastic pistol frames CAN be stable over long periods of time, and in fact CAN have superior durability than aluminum. The problem is that plastics appear to be significantly easier to screw up than metals (although the latter can certainly be poorly made as well), so I don't blame you for being apprehensive. I guess I'm just asking people to keep an open mind to both the potential and problems of plastics. Obviously if you've had bad experiences, then that's going to weigh heavily on your decision-making process, and I wouldn't blame you there, either.



duro said:


> As far as heat dissipation goes, polymer lights could have an aluminum insert?



Yes, it could have a metal heat sink, but after a while that's going to get hot, too, and the heat has to go somewhere. Exposing the heat sink to the air (with as much surface area as possible) would be a good start (but then the flashlight wouldn't be all-plastic on the outside), and coupling it to a metal body would be ideal because the whole flashlight could then be a larger heat sink with a larger surface area that transfers heat to both the air and your body, which is basically another even bigger heat sink. Unfortunately, plastic blocks this valuable process rather effectively, limiting how brightly you can run a lamp and for how long--unless, that is, you install a truly massive internal metal heat sink, but that would obviously compromise the weight and balance of the flashlight.



duro said:


> Just like with polymer handguns, steel inserts are used (mainly for the contact between the slide and the frame.)



That's so the steel slide doesn't chew up the plastic frame, which has nothing to do with flashlights beyond the broad topic of using various materials, and the limitation of that regarding flashlights is described above.



duro said:


> So, polymer lights could very well be used with higher leds provided there is an aluminum insert. So I guess it would have to come down to more design implementations, and retooling.



It's at least partly about how and where to transfer the heat, and plastic, being a thermal insulator, always gets in the way. This is not a problem for firearms (it could even be an advantage in some cases), but it is for flashlights.



duro said:


> Oh, in case you're wondering. Steel inserts have nothing to do with heat dissipation, but friction rather. Although for hand guards for polymer rifles, there are aluminum, or steel inserts that protect the users hand from heat, and of course the polymer melting from the heat of the barrel. So yeah. It could be done for flashlights. Main reason again, seems like cost to manufacture.



If you're talking about lamps that get so hot that you have to protect the user from the heat, then yes, that could be done as you describe, and the resulting flashlight would probably somewhat resemble a rifle with a heat shield in some ways as well.  For the usual hand-held LED flashlight, however, it is better in terms of heat management to use a metal body for the reasons given above.


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## Bullzeyebill (Aug 9, 2011)

moerush04 said:


> I scoured the CPF database and could not come up with much that talks about this topic.



Try goodle, cpf only, at the top of every CPF page for searching. Entering "plastic vs aluminum" will bring up several posts re this topic. Also, see the Similar Threads found at the bottom of this page.

Bill


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## brembo (Aug 9, 2011)

I run several different plastic injection molds, mostly for interior plastics of large trucks. To make a good host in plastic one would need a press in the range of 100-250 tons and a properly designed mold. The mold would probably be several hundred thousand bucks, and the press itself is a massive investment. The coloring agents used in plastic injection are wildly expensive as well, a palm full of the stuff is about 75 dollars, yet that'll go a good ways. The plastic itself is way cheaper by the pound than any metal we'd want a light made from. So making <10,000 lights you'd be better off with mills and metal, make em in bulk and the poly-lights begin to make sense. I'd guess a rate of one host per minute with injection molding, not counting the manual labor of trimming flash and QA work. Caps and bezels would be much quicker, possibly twice as fast.


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## Napalm (Aug 9, 2011)

moerush04 said:


> I think the integration of polymer or Nitrolon (I guess they call it) into the Surefire G2X type lights are close to what what the future flashlights will look like.


 
The idea is not novel. Visit your supermart's flashlight section. What's novel is selling them at $95 a pop.

Nap.


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## LukeA (Aug 10, 2011)

Napalm said:


> whargarbl


 
Done trolling? Good.


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## Napalm (Aug 10, 2011)

LukeA said:


> Done trolling? Good.


 
You guys should ask for a special Surefire section in the forum where you can post only by invite.

Nap.


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## ebow86 (Aug 10, 2011)

I'm a big fan of surefire's nitrolon myself, but I really am not crazy about it when it comes to it being used in LED's that produce any signifigant amount of heat. With their incandescent lights this isn't a problem, but even with these nitrolon lights that have aluminum bezels, I still worry about heat buildup, and that's why I don't think nitrolon or plastic is that great of a host, at least for most LED flashlights, not all.


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## LukeA (Aug 10, 2011)

Napalm said:


> whargarbl 2


 
"You guys?" Which guys? Surefire light owners? I'm not one.

Ignored.


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## ebow86 (Aug 10, 2011)

jh333233 said:


> Some say G2 has the LOWEST water resistance in SF's caterlog



No that goes to the surefire rechargeables, most likely the 10X Dominator. The 8AX/8NX and 9AN have a tiny hole in their bezel to pervent gas buildup should the battery malfunction, thus making them less than waterproof.


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## Bullzeyebill (Aug 10, 2011)

LukeA said:


> Done trolling? Good.


 


Napalm said:


> You guys should ask for a special Surefire section in the forum where you can post only by invite.
> 
> Nap.


 


LukeA said:


> "You guys?" Which guys? Surefire light owners? I'm not one.
> 
> Ignored.



Ok guys, knock it off. You are disrupting this thread

Bill


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## Foxfyre (Aug 11, 2011)

I don't know if this has ever been researched before but what about perhaps mixing in a thermally conductive additive to the polymer before casting? The fast heat transfer would protect the polymer matrix from deteriorating from heat and protect the light circuit (also making for fast easy flashlight body production). Win win for everyone if it could be done.


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## beerwax (Aug 11, 2011)

brembo said:


> I run several different plastic injection molds, mostly for interior plastics of large trucks. To make a good host in plastic one would need a press in the range of 100-250 tons and a properly designed mold. The mold would probably be several hundred thousand bucks, and the press itself is a massive investment. The coloring agents used in plastic injection are wildly expensive as well, a palm full of the stuff is about 75 dollars, yet that'll go a good ways. The plastic itself is way cheaper by the pound than any metal we'd want a light made from. So making <10,000 lights you'd be better off with mills and metal, make em in bulk and the poly-lights begin to make sense. I'd guess a rate of one host per minute with injection molding, not counting the manual labor of trimming flash and QA work. Caps and bezels would be much quicker, possibly twice as fast.


wouldnt you outsource so you dont need to buy the press. still you are talking serious bikkies to make a torch. 

i see a great varyance in plastic quality. go sit in some cars, maybe a hyundai and a jeep and a bmw and a benz. some are very nice. but im still not a fan of plastic for a torch - i just dont like it. 

dont really like aluminium either unless its got a rich think natural anodize.

while i understand the compariison folks here are making with guns for me a more relevant comparison would be with a wristwatch. i dont want a plastic watch i dont care how functional it might be. 

cheers


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## brembo (Aug 11, 2011)

beerwax said:


> i see a great varyance in plastic quality. go sit in some cars, maybe a hyundai and a jeep and a bmw and a benz. some are very nice. but im still not a fan of plastic for a torch - i just dont like it.


 
One of the plastics I deal with often is called Ashai Xyron, it's used mainly for fairings on semi-trucks. When it comes out of the mold it's surface temp is ~400 degrees, making the core a few more than that. It's tough. Like iron kinda tough, cools in a big hurry and pretty much laughs in the face of an open flame, a torch will scorch it eventually. It's VERY expensive stuff(for plastic), around 5 bucks a pound, requires immense injection pressure (4400 tons), but it makes some impressive parts. The final product has strange tactile feedback. Your mind knows it's hard and non-giving, but for whatever reason fingertips return a slight "soft-touch" sensation. I think this or a similar plastic would be killer for a beater light, one that you have no qualms about tossing around and letting it slide around some. Cleans up well too, scratches can be torched, returns the material to it's core color with a quick swipe. It's very difficult to make precision items with however, threads would likely need to be AL sleeves or something like that.

Just a neat tidbit: The pressure requirements are astonishing. A mold that makes a 2 foot by 2 foot panel has to have flanges so bolstered and reinforced the mold weighs 45,000 pounds. The big 7 foot long kitchen tabletop's mold weighs in at around 100,000 pounds. When these behemoths go zooming around overhead people scatter, and no I have never dropped one.


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## leon2245 (Aug 12, 2011)

Aluminum's light enough for me & dissipates heat best, though I can see someone preferring plastic if in a light that doesn't need the body to help with heat. As mentioned I also find the plastic I mean polymer on glocks, hk's, kahrs & the like pretty tough, more so than aluminum in some ways, & I have almost 100% transitioned from steel & Al. to plastic pistols. Once LED's are so efficient that heat is a non issue I'll probably do likewise (as if we'll have much of a choice). So I do understand why someone (else) might choose plastic lights even now. It's actually the advantages of _Ti_ I haven't figured out yet, apart from the jewelry angle- harder to machine, not as good with heat, thread smoothness with production Ti (unless from the high end boutique shops)... they are beautiful though!

Either way I'll take Aluminum every time. Skipping the PA40 & waiting on the Q50 for mostly that reason, along with the instant jump to low OR high UI. But we better get used to it, as plastics are the wave of the future. They will slowly take over like with most everything else:


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## tam17 (Aug 12, 2011)

Polymers are slowly taking their place, but I don't believe in a quick and complete takeover. Aluminium and steel flashlights are always going to be available, although they'll probably be more expensive. The heat transfer/dissipation issue isn't going to be solved easily, so I really don't expect to see any 1000lm plastic lights soon.

I've already ordered a polymer flashlight that created quite a buzz here on CPF recently, and I must admit I'd like to have some of the small Streamlight or Pelican LED hazloc plastic lights for everyday beating.

You can call me a plastic lover if you like 

Cheers,

Tam


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## River17 (Aug 12, 2011)

Being a fan of aluminum for about 95% of my lights, when I first read the topic of this thread I thought "heck, aluminum is better for a million reasons! I'll sure give all the reasons and details in my response, just as soon as I finish reading the OP!" And then as I kept reading down the list of reasons, I realized something: aluminum isn't actually _better_ at all! I mean I absolutely LOVE (and prefer) the feel, look, and "work" of a quality aluminum body of a SureFire for example, but I have to admit the OP made a lot of good points... most of them factually irrefutable indeed. I must admit, I stand corrected, and I am frankly quite amused to say so!

As far as the firearm side of this thread (moderators please pardon the slight step off-topic, I only mean to add insight to the metal vs polymer debate) I wanted to be the first to mention the fact that HK was the original user of polymer in handguns, but GaAslamp beat me to it! To be fair though, while HK was the original/pioneer of polymer, Glock was the first to really mass-produce handguns with polymer frames.

Polymer is just as good as (if not better than) metal in many circumstances in firearms as well as flashlights, but to go into full detail would take me too far from the proper topic. I will say though that there is certainly something to be said for the old-school wood-n-metal battle rifles of the past. In WWII for example, if your M1 ran out of ammo or malfunctioned you could still CRUSH people with the thing... it is BIG, it is HEAVY, and it is SOLID. The same can be said for lights such as MagLites, and for someone such as a Police Officer it is always good to have that compliance "device" either as a backup to your primary baton or _as _a baton-style weapon. I own a SureFire L7 and while certainly not as beefy as a 3D- or 4D-cell Mag it would be an effective defensive weapon.

For a personal, EDC-type light I can appreciate the many benefits of polymer over aluminum as listed by the OP. While many like myself still prefer aluminum I think I've actually gained a little more appreciation for the "plastics" after reading this thread... learn (or in this case come to the realization of) something new every day, I guess.


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## leon2245 (Aug 12, 2011)

That's exactly what I imagine in the plastic light revolution. There will still be some al. lights, just fewer options for the diehards, & like you said more expensive... you PLASTIC LOVER!


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## ebow86 (Aug 12, 2011)

To be fair here it really isn't fair to keep referring to surefire's nitrolon as merely "plastic". I mean, sure in the end it's still plastic, the same as platinum and tin and both "metal", however surefire's nitrolon is a step above most of the other plastic lights I've seen and it's makeup and structure is far more advanced that what it gets credit for.


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## [email protected] (Aug 12, 2011)

the aluminum have a better heatsink than plastic


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## leon2245 (Aug 12, 2011)

Thank you. Not merely plastic, but the latest in *POLYMER* technology!


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## rmteo (Aug 12, 2011)

> *Engineering plastics* are a group of plastic materials that exhibit superior mechanical and thermal properties in a wide range of conditions over and above more commonly used commodity plastics.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Engineering_plastic


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## tam17 (Aug 12, 2011)

Or, to be more precise:



> *Nitrolon* is the registered name of a proprietary aramid-composite polymer used mainly for housings. The material is corrosion resistant, non-conductive and can be comfortably handled at low temperatures. Nitrolon comes from the military technology and, according to manufacturer, better absorbs shocks than aluminum.


Source: http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nitrolon (via Google Translate)



> *Fibre-reinforced plastic* (*FRP*) (also _fibre-reinforced polymer_) is a composite material made of a polymer matrix reinforced with fibres. The fibres are usually fibreglass, carbon, or aramid, while the polymer is usually an epoxy, vinylester or polyester thermosetting plastic. FRPs are commonly used in the aerospace, automotive, marine, and construction industries.


Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fibre-reinforced_plastic

Some manufacturers use plain polycarbonate and ABS (these are non-FRP).

Cheers,

Tam


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## GaAslamp (Aug 12, 2011)

ebow86 said:


> To be fair here it really isn't fair to keep referring to surefire's nitrolon as merely "plastic".



But it is, in fact, mostly made of plastic.



ebow86 said:


> I mean, sure in the end it's still plastic, the same as platinum and tin and both "metal",



That's correct--there are many types of plastic and metal with widely varying properties and levels of quality, but they're still plastic and metal.



ebow86 said:


> however surefire's nitrolon is a step above most of the other plastic lights I've seen and it's makeup and structure is far more advanced that what it gets credit for.



So it's a very strong plastic. Feel free to call it Nitrolon or more informatively fiber-reinforced plastic whenever you want to be specific, but when speaking in general there is no denying that it is plastic. For the purposes of this discussion, which largely involves material properties other than strength, Nitrolon has all the quintessential properties of all plastics (e.g. thermal and electrical insulator), making "plastic" a very apt term in this context (nothing more needs to be said).



leon2245 said:


> Thank you. Not merely plastic, but the latest in *POLYMER* technology!



Polymer is an even more generic term than plastic. :ironic: For example, your fingernail is made of a polymer. There are all kinds of weak, crappy *POLYMER*s oo: out there, but because it sounds better than "plastic" it has been appropriated as yet another marketing term.  I say marketing departments should come up with their own fancy names (e.g. Nitrolon), and leave real words alone!

In any case, Nitrolon is more accurately described as a composite because it's reinforced with some other material (in this case glass fiber). The word composite has likewise been badly abused, especially among aerospace enthusiasts.  As with polymer and plastic, there are many types of composite with widely varying physical properties. For example, perhaps the most common composite material of all is steel-reinforced concrete, but I doubt that fans of the word "composite" would like to see an airplane made of that! :laughing:

Anyway, I just think we should try not to let salesmen mess with our understanding of the English language. :duh2:


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## pec50 (Aug 12, 2011)

Have you ever touched the metal surface of a car on a hot day? When the temperature of the epidermal cells exceeds somewhere around 44C, you feel pain. That's really not very hot, but metal is an excellent conductor as has been explained. So, yes, metal is a viable led heatsink. But, that same metal flashlight sitting by your bedside could be too hot to handle, for example, in an interior house fire where the heat stratifies and there is potentially hundreds of degrees difference between floor and ceiling. That's why it is important to roll out of bed in a fire rather than sit up. And, as you are doing so remember to grab the relatively non-conductive plastic flashlight ; )


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## leon2245 (Aug 13, 2011)

> Polymer is an even more generic term than plastic



Specificity aside, I'll take Polymer, Nitrolon, Carbon Fiber, or possibly even that _thermo_ plastic someone mentioned before I'd buy a plain PLASTIC light. Just sounds like a cheap toy. Not very tactical at all.

:thumbsdow


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## jh333233 (Aug 13, 2011)

Plastic is a subset of polymer (mathematic term)
Polymer is a larger molecule which is formed by composing smaller molecule
Dont limit your view, the word plastic may sound like the things we use everyday, cups, forks, water bottles, these things are light, weak
but the definition is, "any of a wide range of synthetic or semi-synthetic organic solid"


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## rmteo (Aug 13, 2011)

Would Plastic, Polymer, Nitrolon (or whatever) be as "Bomb Proof" as aluminum alloy? :devil:


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## jh333233 (Aug 13, 2011)

rmteo said:


> Would Plastic, Polymer, Nitrolon (or whatever) be as "Bomb Proof" as aluminum alloy? :devil:


Check surefire's website


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## Napalm (Aug 13, 2011)

Plastic watches are less expensive, don't feel cold on your hand in the winter, are lighter than the metal ones and show the time equally well.

These being said I still don't feel attracted by any.

Nap.


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## brembo (Aug 13, 2011)

Napalm said:


> Plastic watches are less expensive, don't feel cold on your hand in the winter, are lighter than the metal ones and show the time equally well.
> 
> These being said I still don't feel attracted by any.
> 
> Nap.


 
I'm prone to extreme sports. I have found that plastic watches (G-Shock in particular) are much easier to stomach the loss of. Somewhere in Florida there lies a Tag Heuer in the sand. Lost that one when a 2-string kite got me airborne. Blew the bezel and crystal off a really nice Seiko when a handhold crumbled on a rockface. Swiss Army watch went to the great clock-maker in the sky when i tossed a motorcycle down some slick-rock. I keep a G-Shock attached to my handlebars now, it's been abused horribly but keeps time just fine.


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## Napalm (Aug 13, 2011)

brembo said:


> I'm prone to extreme sports. I have found that plastic watches (G-Shock in particular) are much easier to stomach the loss of.



Since "nitrolon" was mentioned in the title, I thought we were talking of $95 plastic watches? 

Otherwise I don't have any objection to the $4.99 Dorcy/Garrity ones, they indeed fill the need for a disposable something that you correctly underlined.

Nap.


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## jh333233 (Aug 13, 2011)

G-shock worths $95 IMO
unless you like cheap watches which arent painful to lose


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## Napalm (Aug 13, 2011)

jh333233 said:


> G-shock worths $95 IMO



With some patience and basic e-bay skills you can score a Citizen diving watch for the same price from Hong Kong or Singapore. Real ISO 6425 "Diver's" not some "WR100" that doesn't mean anything.

nap.


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## leon2245 (Aug 13, 2011)

Napalm said:


> Since "nitrolon" was mentioned in the title, I thought we were talking of* $95 plastic watches?*
> 
> Otherwise I don't have any objection to the $4.99 Dorcy/Garrity ones, they indeed fill the need for a disposable something that you correctly underlined.
> 
> Nap.


 

Yeah & they called it "resin" when I got taken for much more than that on a Frogman, which didn't even last as long as their basic non-g-shock casios. I've since reverted to the latter & have just accepted their somewhat disposable nature.

My plastic lights are also of the cheaper variety you find in B&M stores. I wouldn't mind it so much on the higher end stuff, except I can generally only find those online. Unfortunately it's only after you have it in your hands do you get a sense of the feel of the quality. Because compared to aluminum, whose finishes differ in quality of course, but Al. still doesn't seem to vary as wildly in feel like different plastics seem to.

If there were some nice lights with bodies that felt as good as GLOCK or HK frames, & I could see them in person first, maybe. _Looks _like they might be getting close, with the pa40's body?


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## leon2245 (Aug 13, 2011)

Napalm said:


> With some patience and basic e-bay skills you can score a Citizen diving watch for the same price from Hong Kong or Singapore. Real ISO 6425 "Diver's" not some "WR100" that doesn't mean anything.
> 
> nap.


 

_Elegant_, Citizen.


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