# "Made in USA" or "Made in ..."



## modamag (Jul 21, 2006)

Many of us home shop machinist (HSM) facing an array of issue when we enter into this "expensive" hobby (machining not flashlight).
Some of the factors includes:
1. Expenses ... yep this play into a major factor for many of us. The budget could be as little as $500 --> INF.
2. Shop space ... typically your garage, if you're lucky and have a +1/4 lot maybe then maybe your hand built shed.
3. Experience ... for many of us entering in hobby have no little to no experience machining.
4. Time ... I know of a few friends who have an "unlimited" budget for toys but yet they have no "time" to spend on their Monarch 10EE.

The level of complication and issues differ from person to person.

This post is pry your feeling regarding "Made in USA" or "Made in ..." who knows where.

Here's couple questions, I want to explore:
1. We all know that the majority of Chinese made machinery and tooling are horrible, but then why does places such as HF, Grizzly and Enco thrive.
2. If American made machinery is so great, then why are they going out of business.
3. What have your experience been, and what cause you to select one over the other.

Remember friends, assault the product (manufacturer), not the members who uses them.
PS: moderators:= this post can be in the "Cafe" or some other place, but I think it's more relavent here since I only want to address this topic with my fellow home shop machinist.


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## modamag (Jul 21, 2006)

I'll take a crack at my own questions.
When I purchase my bench lathe & mill basically had no other option but the Chinese made ones. I've been apprenticing with an old machinist who consistently "pushed" me to get one that was made in the USA.
The problem was I would need to get a 3 phz converter, allocate way more room than what I had, 3'x6' (at the time) and spend numerous hours restoring the machine or pay a premium for someone to do it. I had a very reasonable budget so I could have gone either way at the time. But I went with the Chinese route, knowing that what I'll get are basically kits which I'll spend alot of time tuning.

The machines that I got (HF & direct) was decent compared to some my peers.
My Mill:
Spindle runout was < 0.001"
Tram within 0.0006 along the X-axis and 0.001" along the Y-axis.
Shumatech 3-Axis DRO

My Lathe:
3-Jaws chuck TIR < 0.002"
Way flatness within 0.001"
Variable speed.

Now I wouldn't recommend these as a production machinery but may be more than appropriate for HSM uses.

The keyed 1/2" Sangou chuck that camed with my Mill had a 0.0016" runout while my Albrecht 1/2" keyless had < 0.0003". Note that the Chinese made ones will go for ~$20-$30 while the quality Jacobs (USA) or Albrecht (German) ones are ~$280. 10x the cost for 3x the precision which I normally do not need 
Kinda funny hah ... I spend more $$$ on the accessories and precision measurement while I skimped on the actual machine themself.


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## IsaacHayes (Jul 21, 2006)

HF exsists because a lot of their stuff is good enough to get by and it's cheap. I use some of their tools and if it breaks, oh well it didn't cost squat. Most of their tools are good enough for what I use them for (their hand tools). Now for a precision machine I'd defiantly want something with tight tolerances.


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## ABTOMAT (Jul 21, 2006)

This is sort of an issue with me since I comunicate with machinists, and I've spent time looking for old quality (US but doesn't have to be--UK, German, Canadian, etc are good) machinery.

1. Why do cheap Chinese tool importers exist? Because some tools offer a good value, and for the rest there are ignorant or foolish folks who will buy them. The trend today by US consumers of any goods is looking at price only. I hear folks say it's OK if their new $175 TV only lasts a year, since if it breaks they'll just throw it out and buy another one. They not only don't realize that if they had spent $350 they'd have a better TV that would last 5-10 years, but that the idea of just thowing things out will ruin the entire industry and eventually the consumers. They're paying for materials to be refined and produced, time and effort to assemble them into products, and then get dumped in a landfill never to be used again for anything. Basically to convert resources into trash. False economy. It's already happening. Quality brands are making worse stuff now because the buyers don't care. Same deal with tools. Of course cheap tools have the additional problem of breaking when you most need them or making bad work in the meantime.

1a. The availability of cheap imported stuff starting a couple decades ago has conditioned people about prices. Things are artificially cheap compared with US made stuff. A cheap Atlas lathe from 1966 the same size and market position as the current 7x14 import would cost $1300 today if you only count for inflation. Granted they were finished a little better, but it was a lighter lathe overall with fewer features.

2. No question of "are"--it's "did" go out of business. The greater domestic machine tool industry is over, kaput, bye-bye. Only makers of CNC centers or specialty equipment are still making a living. The other companies still kicking around are makers of a few well-known traditional manual machines, but lack of demand has led to prices so high no one will ever be able to buy them.

2a. The many reasons this happened over the last 30 years are all linked together. First, cheaper import stuff cut into sales of domestic companies. Lower volumes of sales led to higher prices. Additional emmissions, labor, and beaurocratic restrictions led to even higher prices. Depression of the industries coupled with a public push at marginalizing knowledge of how things work led to lack of skilled workers which in turn led to higher prices. Finally the prices got so high everything shut down.

3. My experience is from the perspective of a financially-limited hobby machinist. I bought several new and used cheap imported tools of different kinds. The most complicated was a drill press. Are were virtually unusable and despite spending lots of time and money improving them they still couldn't hack it. I either gave away or traded away everything. Never recovered any money.

After those problems I made a point of tracking down older domestic stuff. I spent a while, and then my luck turned and I started finding things. Some needed a little work, a few needed major work. But I'm mechanically adept and it wasn't a problem. In the end almost everything I got was much better AND much cheaper than imports, or at a minimum much better and cost about the same.

Now, this is all dealing with the rock-bottom prices I could afford. Had I a little more money (probably easily within most peoples' budgets who are interested in the hobby) I could have gotten old domestic machines that didn't require much fixing or were in better shape.


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## ABTOMAT (Jul 21, 2006)

And now for some more thoughts.

There _are_ indeed very good reasons for buying some imported machines even without considering cost. For instance, the 7x14 (or x10 or x12 or whatever) lathes are an excellent value and pretty much the only thing in that size. Despite being low-quality "kits" if you don't want a bigger lathe they're about the best you can do without going big-bucks or getting very lucky. Practically the only available competing machines on the used market are either Craftsman 109's, Atlas 618's or Myford ML7's. The Craftsman was a bad, flimsy, junky, unreliable design from the start, Atlas is a light but versatile lathe that commands high prices on the used market for what you get. The Myford is a good quality gem that is very expensive and it usually worth every penny for such a lovely tool. So the 7x14 is the best bang for your buck.

This happens with a lot of stuff. Chinese digital calipers are another shining example. They're somewhat accurate and if you don't need higher precision there's nothing out there that can touch them. Of course if you were doing important work you'd also have a good set or two. There are lots of other things like this that don't bother me at all.

Import machines that don't make sense to buy are medium-sized stuff. For the $1000-3000 a lathe from 9x20 to 12x36 will cost you can get a used Atlas, South Bend, Logan, Clausing, Boxford, etc that won't be a restoration project and will be lightyears better than a pile of sandy iron made by kids in Yingyang, China. Just like the "for cheap import" paragraph above, there are an equally large number of similar examples for this "against cheap import" one. This includes amost all hand tools and portable power tools.


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## greenLED (Jul 21, 2006)

I'm not a machinist, and I don't think this is very much a US vs the rest of the world quality issue (which, frankly, it's gotten old and stinky...). Broadly, I think this issue applies to a lot of other aspects of our work and lives.

IMO, it's an issue of what task you have at hand and whether a person places importance in investing in high quality tools to get the job done, and whether this person has the means to purchase those tools. Is the task at hand critical enough to *demand* the ultimate best? or can you get relatively equal results using lesser quality tools? what are your half-life expectations for your tools?

I find myself going for the ultimate (usually most expesive or near the top tier) tools, but when the task is not critical, or I don't have a permanent need for the tools, I don't mind lower quality (and, thus, price).

My 0.02 lumens (after window losses).


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## ABTOMAT (Jul 21, 2006)

And since I can't stop typing...

Used good machines _are_ available in home shop sizes, plus light industrial sizes that almost anyone can fit in a basement, room, or shed. Most of it single-phase, plug-in and ready to roll. The light industrial stuff frequently comes with 3ph motors, but you can either replace them or make a phase converters dirt cheap. Terrific bargains can be found when you get into the medium industrial sizes, since many home buyers don't want them and larger industry has moved on to more modern machines. Small machine shops love these tools.

Used domestic stuff falls into these catagories, from most common to least common:

1. Great condition but pricey
2. Cheap but worn out or ugly
3. Worn out but pricey--usually sold by idiot dealers
4. Great and cheap but with a "but"--like huge, or antique, or hard to tool
5. Great condition and cheap--takes a while to locate these but they're out there in larger numbers than you'd think.

One thing to keep in mind is condition. A Monarch 13-1000EE (yes, it's a real lathe--you 10EE owners aren't top of the heap) that's plum worn out will be outcut by a $2K Harbor Freight lump of trash. Many newbie folks get caught up in the "domestic rules!" thing withthough considering all the variables. Buy wisely and you can't go wrong.

Second, if the have some ability and some time, don't be scared to take on a project or an older tool that needs some fiddling as long as you go into the purchase informed. Coming back to 10EE's again, many times you can get a clean one dirt cheap because the electrics have failed from age. With some basic tools and help from Monarch owners on the internet, you can repair it cheap and have one of the best small lathes ever made. You don't need experience machining to repair machines on a basic level. Car or appliance repair experience probably is more accurate. Of course you need to learn machining once it's running.


Oh and one (hopefully) last thought. There are _great_, super-high-end Chinese machine tools. Why don't you hear much about them on hobbiest boards? Because they cost close to what the German/English/US/Italian/Japanese tools they copied. It takes money to make a really nice machine and that's reflected in price. The "Chinese tools" that everyone complains about are simply the ones that are targeted at the home shop market. They're successful because they're cheap, they're cheap because they're low quality. A Chinese imported lathe in the same class as a South Bend 10L would cost many, many times what a cherry used SB goes for. The greater population wouldn't pay that so what shows up in stores is crummy.

The reason this whole issue has become a "China vs--" thing is because no other country still has an industry that makes home machine tools. In addition to the US, you had a ton of small makers in England, plus some in German, Scandinavia, Australia, Japan, and Canada. Former Soviet states probably still make things like this but you don't see them outside of Europe.


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## will (Jul 21, 2006)

I worked as a machinist in a small prototype shop years back. This was before I went into the computer field. I spent a total of 4 years there and it was a great learning experience. Most of what we did was a few of these, and some of those. To some extent we all were closer to tool and die makers. We had all US built machines, they were great. 

My own tools for the home shop are a mixed bag. I do a lot of woodworking and use only Porter-Cable hand tools - made in the US. Why ? because the cost of these tools is not so expensive as to make the unaffordable. They work, they are solid. it is a pleasure to use them. 

I did buy a Grizzly Drill Press. The price was right and I heard good things about them. To be honest, the finish is not all that great, some rough edges, but - It drills a hole straight and it seems to have enough power for my home use. 

I have an ENCO mini lathe 7x10 , the reality of this is - it is too small. I bought this second hand off ebay. My main goal was to have something to turn small wooden parts. I have since started to use it for metal. It is what it is, not a production machine. I just got the thing to stop chattering by moving some screw holes. I just went over everything with a dial guage to set it up correctly, I tightened all the slides. The one item I have to figure out is the .003 run out in the 3 jaw chuck. In the machine shop we used to just 'bore' out the jaws to get the to run true. I might do the same here. 

So - I guess I would be in the mixed catagory, some US, some Chinese. I can't justify a $1,000 lathe for my hobbies.I would like to get a milling machine, but right now I can't justify that either.


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## McGizmo (Jul 21, 2006)

I bought two very expensive sewing machines some years back that were both based on designs that are probably really old!! These machines were both cast in China. Duh! I wonder where the worlds sewing is now based....

Uh for that matter, where is the worlds manufacturing base moving to these days... :thinking:

I recently bought a $10k bench CNC mill from a company in So. CA. This is a cheap import that has been reworked and CNC added. I believe the world's largest mfg of _disposable_ CNC machines is USA based. I gather the best CNC equipment is still from Europe and some companies in the US. I have Ti parts made domestically by a shop that is trying to stay ahead of the game by using the very best equipment and going with the highest level of automation possible. I also get parts machined by an old shop in NY that is having some trouble staying competitive and frankly they aren't in many areas. 

I have an old Craftsman (Atlas) lathe that was sold to the home shop business back when folks might have a machine shop at their disposal. I have an old but completely rebuilt Hardinge HLV lathe that is so very nice and was so very expensive!! These machines come available when another small independent machine shop closes its doors for the last time.

Good machines require machinists to operate them. The US hasn't been _growing_ machinists for quite some time now so why have the machines? Hell, we can outsource and not get our fingernails dirty! 

I find it interesting that the DIY business is providing all kinds of cool hand power tools for the weekend warrior to build a deck, swimming pool, second floor or whatever but we don't look into tools or equipment so much for repair of modifications of equipment; key is to just replace it! When something broke, people used to fix it and make parts if needed. 

Where quality is demanded and funds available, supply is likely to be present. If we want to consume disposable crap with an eye on discount and bargains only then this is what will be served. The tighter the margins, the more one must rely on economies of scale and reductions in costs. Diversity is contrary to large scale. A range in price points is a type of diversity. A common lowest denominator is just that. 

I think it is fantastic that there are now small home shop style machine tools available. This will give more folks the chance to test the waters and maybe have some good and satisfying hands on experiences. If I may, these are the mag flashlights of the world. However, it's a shame that there isn't a need for a bettter more precise tool or should I say the supply of such a tool for some who might want to move up the ladder. Perhaps these cheap imports are just a start for a new revolution of small cottage industry? :thinking: Probably not but one can dream.


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## Brighteyez (Jul 21, 2006)

Actually I'm a little surprised to see that from a Bay Area resident. After all what difference does it make if non-English speaking Chinese women are exploited in China or Chinatown? After the lid was blown off of the garment factories in the various Chinatowns in this country and the employees got rights like minimum wage, there wasn't any choice but to find someplace where workers could be exploited for maximum profit. The choice of using workers in China makes perfect sense, it's a good place to find Chinese women willing to work for nothing, just like they did in the Chinatowns. There is one other alternative that would have been more profitable, but consumers seem to object to the exploitation of children in Pakistan (though I can't understand why, it's not as if they actually know the rugrats.) Actually I don't think most of the garment manufacturers use Chinese labor, with the industrialization it's too expensive these days, and there are more economically depressed third-world countries that can be better exploited.

(some tongue-in-cheek in the above, but not all  )




McGizmo said:


> I bought two very expensive sewing machines some years back that were both based on designs that are probably really old!! These machines were both cast in China. Duh! I wonder where the worlds sewing is now based....


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## David_Web (Jul 21, 2006)

The worlds most advanced factorys are set up in China but that does not mean that everything from China is perfect. Same with any country. It's the person or factory behind the products that makes them, not the location on the globe. Some mfgr might have it easier due to cheap labour or otherwise low costs.
Made in USA means nothing to me unless I know that the brand makes good stuff, same with any country. 
I personally beleve that "made in USA" has become just a marketing trick to make people beleve that they buys good quality stuff. A lot of good dtuff comes out of any country, sadly a lot of crap does too.

It is one in the morning and I have not read any of the posts therally, I just posted my point of view and will be intrested on your take on things when I wake up.


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## tvodrd (Jul 21, 2006)

Just $.02. Drill chucks- I went Jacobs ball bearing and even bought a 3/4" cap for the lathe. They're rebuildable and will last a lifetime. I also bought Jacobs arbors for them- I don't want them coming loose! For my Tiawanese lathe I opted for a KDK toolpost and blocks. The suckers _repeat!_ I also bought mostly US-made indexable tooling for the lathe. Before blowing ~$1,100 on a complete set of 5C collets from McMaster, I called them, and they said "import." I took the chance and they were Lyndex- Made in Japan! I could have saved a bunch ordering them from Enco if I had had a clue! 

Measuring stuff- Mitutoyo, but the import stuff isn't too bad, providing you have gold standards to check them. I have HF $15, 4" dial calipers at home and at work and love them! For indicating-in a piece in the mill or 4-jaw a cheap import is fine, but for comparing heights on a surface plate, :tsk: I bought import gage pins is sets ranging from .050" to .750" x .001" I have checked many with a good mic and haven't found one out yet. :knockonwood: 

For things like angle plates and mill hold-down kits, I find import to be fine. Travers and Enco are getting a lot of HSS cutters from eastern Europe, particularly the odd thread taps and dies. My 6" spacer was made in Taiwan and is of '70's Japanese quality, which is excellent! When I got my Bridgeport mill from work as surplus ('70s, I think, and made in England, I think) I bought an endmill set from Enco. Maybe I got lucky, but they're pretty good. I skimped on a 2" boring head and it is a POS, but has worked ok so far. The import boring bars lack a flat and feces occurs the first time you use one!

I could go on.... Some times it's a crapshoot with "imported," and other times no worry.

Larry


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## scott.cr (Jul 24, 2006)

My reason for owning the Chinese stuff is cost: I simply cannot justify spending $5,000 on a lathe (or even $1,500 for that matter) on something that is not used for full production. My $330 mini lathe is perfectly capable of homeowner/small hobby type things. Look at the Sherlines and Taigs, twice the price and no automatic screw feed. $600 I could justify on a Sherline or Taig, but I want to turn screw threads and use a 256 TPI gear setup for automatic "fine" cuts where feeding by hand would cause a sloppy surface finish. Plus there is a lot of aftermarket support for the cheap lathes; you can get chucks in all sizes, toolpost grinders, all kinds of change gears, metric and USS leadscrews, bolt-on DROs and the list goes on.

I also have a Horrible Freight "Big Red" drill/mill, paid $220 for it. For that small amount of cash I think that machine was well worth the money. However, there was a big problem of it having .009" taper on the X-Y table, and in machinist's terms it might as well be a mile. For a while I spent the extra time shimming the workpieces, but it's been corrected since. Anyway, the Big Red has a lot of room and work capacity for the money. I don't think there is a good quality drill/mill in that size even made, let alone affordable to the homeowner.

There are some Chinese-made tools I will not touch though, due to bad past experiences, such as those drill chucks with like .250" runout hahaha, and soldered electronics. My mini lathe electronics are holding up for now, but I'm just waiting for the day they'll die. My first mini mill had a DC speed control it it, which died... actually not died dead, the speed control went to full blast in the middle of a job and tore the hell out of the work piece and end mill and took about five years off my life.


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## Handlobraesing (Jul 25, 2006)

I really don't think country of origin really matters. Manufacturing is only a part of the equation and it is the field that industrialized nations are stepping away from. 

In China, cutting quality go a looong way in cutting cost, because adjustment labor and such is a smaller part of the overall cost. In the US, labor is a significant part of the cost. 

Speaking of run-off, mechanical products like mechanical watches, shaver blade assembly, precision optics with very close tolerance often comes from Germany, Japan or Switzerland more than the USA.


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## frisco (Jul 25, 2006)

Chinese equipment mfg. covers the range from junk to some rather nice stuff. About 15 years ago I bought a Bridgeport style Mill off the floor of a big machine show in San Jose CA. The brand name is Acer. I brought a machinist friend of mine to check it out before I bought it..... he said it was way better than the Enco, Jet type machines.
This machine was also fitted with a Mitotoyo numerical control system and auto-feed.

I've made Race Car parts, rigging equip for the film industry and parts for my Harley's.

Looking to get a Lathe now. I'm thinking about a 110v machine. The ones I'm looking at are from Lathemaster.com 

As much as I'd like to have a Hardinge machine.... I just won't be using it that much.

frisco


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## Rothrandir (Jul 25, 2006)

for me, the reason i bought an hf lathe and minimill were because they were the only options available in the size i need. my "shop" is 30" x 60", and i think i've done pretty well by fitting a lathe, mill, grinder, and room for all my tools and stock...

however, i really don't use my equipment anymore  i've been spoiled not only by machines with much higher quality and tolerances, but they do all the work for me!


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## cy (Jul 25, 2006)

I'm firmly in the purchase used older machine tools camp. fortunately I'm blessed with room for a full sized machine shop. 

having the tools and having skills to operate at full potential is two different issues. if I ever get the time, would not mind taking a local votech machine shop course.


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## ABTOMAT (Jul 25, 2006)

Acer is one of the good import brands, along with Sharp and a couple others I'm forgetting. Usually Taiwanese, IIRC. There's no comparison whatsoever to Harbor Freight, Homier, etc machines.

Here's some trivia. Everyone's familiar with Hardinge Bros. I assume? Of HLV, DV59, etc fame. They buy high-end HLV knockoffs (Sharp, I think) and use them to make precision parts, since the actual HLVs are too expensive not to sell as long as someone's willing to buy one. Actually, HLV production is suspended right now due to lack of demand.


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## modamag (Jul 25, 2006)

It's great that we're getting response from both camp.

Again, this thread was not meant to stir up any patriotism for any country. It was just meant to probe purchasing habbit of quality vs $$$.

*ABTOMAT: *I gotta disagree with you regarding the availability of good old lathe. I been scouring the CA Bay Area for the last 6 months for a nice machine. Only several hits occur, and this is what happen to them.
HLV-H $3500 ... retract|sold within 48 hrs. Seller never replied to my inquiries.
10EE $3850 ... sold within 24 hrs.
10EE $600 ... non operational. Needed ALOT of work and $$$ for missing parts.
EMCO Compact8 $3500 ... need some work. I like this machine the most due to it size but that price was just rediculous.

And just today I went to an auction trying to get an HLV-EM it went for over $11K, the condition was just OK. [email protected]#%$ if I went into a bidding war I think the guy would go for +$15K.

I guess the "used" machine market in the BA is very limited. Not like LA or the East Coast. I haven't had much luck and been stuck with cat3 "Worn out but pricey--usually sold by idiot dealers". 

*McGizmo: *The BA garment industry went south (literally). Alot of stuff sold at our flea market are currently produced in LA with pricing that match/beat imported price (thanx to our +40% tariff).
I still have couple very very good sewing machine, which we cant justify selling for $500/each. My wife made me mill & lathe cover with them 

*Brighteyez: *It's below minimum wage. Last I checked in NYC it's ~$4/hr while BA is only slightly better. That why many and switch over to repair and custom work.

*tvodrd: *Larry you're one lucky guy. Complete 5C Lyndex set normally goes for $1200 @ Enco.

*frisco: *If you need just a DV59, I got a friend who's selling a really nice one.


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## Ganp (Jul 28, 2006)

About 12 years ago I bought an old lathe with a few accessories for £250. Due to my innexperience I did not really know what I was buying, just that it was apparently working OK.
Since then I have turned parts for many purposes, and now for torches. The more I used it, the more I realised that it was starting to show signs of wear and I have to be extra carefull to get the finnish I need.
I also realised what a beautifull machine this must have been (it may be 50 years old now), and what a bargain it was for £250. I would rather spend money getting this Southbend Heavy 10" renovated than buy a new lathe.

Ganp.


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