# 2D Mag85 Questions



## RichS (May 1, 2008)

I have several high output lights now including an M6, Boxer24w, Mag61, Rattlesnake, Vector, etc., but nothing puts out the beautiful, powerful, darkness-obliterating white incandescent beam of my Mag85. I have a 3D 3x18650 config and it is great.

However, I like my Mag85 so much that I want to make it a little more practical. I want: a.) more runtime, and b.) a more compact light.

So, I would like to go with a 2D config, dual-bored with 4 18650s in a 3S/1P configuration. However, after doing some searching and trying to get started, I am a little stuck so I'm coming to the experts for help.

- Who does dual boring on Mags here on CPF?
- Are 18650s in a 3S/1P configuration be the best / longest running battery config in a 2D Mag?
- Would I have to solder connections to the batteries in this config, or is there another way so that I can keep the batteries loose for separate charging?

Thanks in advance for your help!

-Rich


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## Stereodude (May 1, 2008)

There's really no such thing as a 3S/1P That's just 3 batteries in series. You can't use 4 batteries and get the voltage of 3. You would have to use a multiple of 3.

Can you use 3 "C" Li-Ion cells in a cut down D?


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## Probedude (May 2, 2008)

Stereodude said:


> There's really no such thing as a 3S/1P That's just 3 batteries in series.



Blame the RC Lipo manufacturers. This is how they spec packs. The number before the S is the number of cells, the number before the P is the number of series strings in parallel. They actually do label them 3S1P, or 2S1P, etc. 

See here
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=1764394


Rich,
I built a 'regular' Mag85 (Mag 3D light, 9AA holder). The 1185 bulb is 9.6V lamp. With 9AA it is overdriven to 10.8V. 18650 are 4.2V fully charged, ~3.7V discharged. 3 in series gives you 12.6V - 11.1V. I did a discharge of a 18650 at 2A and it held voltage pretty well.

Is it okay to run an 1185 bulb from 3 lithium cells in series?

FWIW, I just put in freshly charged Eneloops in my Mag85 and promptly burned out the bulb . Probably was at ~1.5V per bulb or 13.5V for 9 qty :mecry:


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## FILIPPO (May 2, 2008)

ina a 2D you can use a 9 X 2/3A battery pack (that is nimh and 1500mah), you need a tri-boring that you can have done by Jesus (a CPF member).

your question is diffucult becouse with a smaller host you must get smaller cells with less capacity and than less runtime too. 

if you change your mind and decide to update your old mag85 you can look for 3 "D" li-ion that are rated for >5000mah and with them you'll sure get more runtime.


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## MikeSalt (May 2, 2008)

Also consider the NiMH offerings from luxluthor. His custom battery packs will fit into a 2D with tri-bore or quad-bore configuration. Whilst your Mag is in the capable hands of Jesus, you could even have it shortened to 1.5D and quad-bored, there is a battery pack for that too.

Need more runtime? No problem - buy a second pack. With all the cells welded together and carefully wrapped, carrying spares and swapping them out is no problem at all.


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## RichS (May 2, 2008)

Stereodude said:


> There's really no such thing as a 3S/1P That's just 3 batteries in series. You can't use 4 batteries and get the voltage of 3. You would have to use a multiple of 3.
> 
> Can you use 3 "C" Li-Ion cells in a cut down D?


Thanks for educating me on this and for the good alternatives listed. It looks like if I go with 3 "C" lion config I will get the longer runtime I wanted along with making the light somewhat more compact (36mm shorter??). I think this will be my best bet until AW comes out with 1/2 D Li-ions...:devil:

Anyone know who could cut down my 3D Mag for me?


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## FILIPPO (May 2, 2008)

RichS said:


> Anyone know who could cut down my 3D Mag for me?


 

rty to PM JESUS HERNANDEZ....

he can also TRI-bore, QUAD-bore, Fin heads...


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## Stereodude (May 2, 2008)

RichS said:


> Thanks for educating me on this and for the good alternatives listed. It looks like if I go with 3 "C" lion config I will get the longer runtime I wanted along with making the light somewhat more compact (36mm shorter??). I think this will be my best bet until AW comes out with 1/2 D Li-ions...:devil:


I'm not sure that a 1185 bulb is compatible with 3 Li-Ion batteries. I'd check that first. I'd also be tempted to go with a cut down / custom length C body Mag if you're using Li-Ion "C" cells since there's no real advantage to putting them in the wider D Mag body.


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## 2xTrinity (May 2, 2008)

> Thanks for educating me on this and for the good alternatives listed. It looks like if I go with 3 "C" lion config I will get the longer runtime I wanted along with making the light somewhat more compact (36mm shorter??). I think this will be my best bet until AW comes out with 1/2 D Li-ions


3Cs would fit in a 2D, as you can fit the narrower C-Cells , but if you're going to go with AW Cs, you should actually get a 3C mag IMO. - i'ts not like all the "magic air" in the larger 2D is going to giev you any extra runtime...


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## Patriot (May 2, 2008)

Stereodude said:


> I'm not sure that a 1185 bulb is compatible with 3 Li-Ion batteries. I'd check that first. I'd also be tempted to go with a cut down / custom length C body Mag if you're using Li-Ion "C" cells since there's no real advantage to putting them in the wider D Mag body.




3 Li-ion are great for the 1185 as long as you watch the charge. If you charge them all to 4.2V there is a good chance of insta-flashing. Other than that, I think a 3C with 3xAW C cells is the best 85 ever. It's the brightest and whitest anyhow.  I agree putting them into a D body would be unnecessarily clumsy though. The 3C is perfect imo.


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## DM51 (May 2, 2008)

3x AW protected 'C' Li-Ions will be fine with a WA 1185. Bear in mind these cells are 53 mm long, not 50 mm like regular alkaline C-cells, so you would probably need a 10 mm extender to fit them in a Mag3C.


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## warlord (May 2, 2008)

A 2D mag is a little bit shorter than a 3C mag. I think it's 10" vs 10 7/8" for the 3C. I opted for the 2D knowing that it'll fit 2D, 3C, 9xAAA, 2x 18650, etc without needing to be cut down or bored. IMHO it's just your preference.


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## Stereodude (May 2, 2008)

Patriot36 said:


> 3 Li-ion are great for the 1185 as long as you watch the charge. If you charge them all to 4.2V there is a good chance of insta-flashing. Other than that, I think a 3C with 3xAW C cells is the best 85 ever. It's the brightest and whitest anyhow.


Won't the Li-Ion cells suffer a much greater voltage shift and therefore a larger brightness drop as they discharge when compared to Ni-MH cells? :thinking: Operating range of 3 Li-Ion's is 8.1-12.6V.

Someone needs to make a good voltage regulator for incan bulbs. oo:


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## Patriot (May 2, 2008)

Stereodude said:


> Won't the Li-Ion cells suffer a much greater voltage shift and therefore a larger brightness drop as they discharge when compared to Ni-MH cells? :thinking: Operating range of 3 Li-Ion's is 8.1-12.6V.
> 
> Someone needs to make a good voltage regulator for incan bulbs. oo:





They maintain their voltage enough to initially give 11.1V for about 1300+ bulb lumens. 9 NiMH at 10.8V would be just under 1200 if I remember correctly. I can testify to the fact that my 3C is brighter than my 9AA was.


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## RichS (May 2, 2008)

2xTrinity said:


> 3Cs would fit in a 2D, as you can fit the narrower C-Cells , but if you're going to go with AW Cs, you should actually get a 3C mag IMO. - i'ts not like all the "magic air" in the larger 2D is going to giev you any extra runtime...


Well, this pretty much fits the bill for my original goal -a Mag85 with more runtime in a more compact host! I had no idea that 3 C cells would fit in a 2D Mag - this sounds perfect. I do have a 2C Mag which I really like as a 5761 host, and may take a look at the 3C as another alternative for the 1185. A 2D host was my goal initially, but now I want to check out both.

Thanks for all your help!

-Rich


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## FILIPPO (May 3, 2008)

Patriot36 said:


> They maintain their voltage enough to initially give 11.1V for about 1300+ bulb lumens. 9 NiMH at 10.8V would be just under 1200 if I remember correctly. I can testify to the fact that my 3C is brighter than my 9AA was.


 

mmmh...I think it depends by which nimh we are considering...

I think good high drain nimh can hold more than 1,25 under load


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## EssLight (May 3, 2008)

FILIPPO said:


> mmmh...I think it depends by which nimh we are considering...
> 
> I think good high drain nimh can hold more than 1,25 under load


Looking at Silverfox's excellent data
https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/79302
In paticular for the CBP 1650 and Eneloops, under a 3+ amp load, they both start out delivering over 1.3 volts. After the first couple minutes, though, the sustained voltage drops below 1.25 V. And how much of this voltage reaches the bulb depends on the resistance of the setup. But for sure, freshly charged NiMH can start out at a high voltage.

Has anyone done load testing of the AW C cells, to get some data for comparison?


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## FILIPPO (May 3, 2008)

EssLight said:


> Has anyone done load testing of the AW C cells, to get some data for comparison?


 

I don't know but I think that 5761 in the max for 2 AW "c" cells...
also with this set-up you should use a soft starter...


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## RichS (May 3, 2008)

FILIPPO said:


> I don't know but I think that 5761 in the max for 2 AW "c" cells...
> also with this set-up you should use a soft starter...


Agreed - I just got the AW soft-start/multi-level tower today for use in the 2C 5761. 

The AW C batteries at 3300mah should have an amp limit of 6.6, right? I believe that would be 2C for these li-ions. Since the 5761 pulls 5.5 amps at 7.2v, these batteries should handle that load safely with about a 1 amp buffer.


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## DM51 (May 3, 2008)

The protection circuit on them is set at ~5.5A.


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## RichS (May 3, 2008)

DM51 said:


> The protection circuit on them is set at ~5.5A.


That's good to know. I guess I won't be doing any resistance mods then...:duh2:


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## 2xTrinity (May 3, 2008)

> Well, this pretty much fits the bill for my original goal -a Mag85 with more runtime in a more compact host! I had no idea that 3 C cells would fit in a 2D Mag - this sounds perfect.


They can, but you lose the ability to store a spare lamp (as the tailcap is filled up). With 3C, you can still fit a spare. 1185s are nice in that they're one of the only bipin bulbs small enough to actually fit in the spare holder of the MagC's



> I don't know but I think that 5761 in the max for 2 AW "c" cells...
> also with this set-up you should use a soft starter...



Yeah, under the 5.5A load though the AW C's sag considerably running the 5761. My Kaidomain D-Cells actually do better under that load, but unfortuantely those will ONLY work with a soft-starter, as the short circit protection kicks in at around ~6Amps on those, which is pretty lame -- ROP-Hi won't even light without a soft starter.

As for the 1185 I believe the soft starter is needed for a different reason, the problem is that under ~3A load, the cells don't sag _enough_, so if freshly charged they are at risk of instaflashing the bulb. With the 3xEmoli 26700 in a 4C, the 1185 is particularly vulnerable to instaflash because those don't sag nearly as much as most other LiIons.

I have used all three (ROP, 5761, 1185), and between them, I liek the convenience of the ROP in that it is potted, and can be easily swapped for a "low" lamp in a pinch. I like the beam pattern of the 1185 the best though -- the filament geometry leads to the most concantrated beam of the three. The odd number of cells limits options for hosts, though. 5761 is good because it has the most lumens, but they're a bit more dispersed.


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## RichS (May 6, 2008)

Well ok, you've all convinced me to go with the Mag 3C 1185 w/ AW C batteries. I liked the idea of the even shorter 2D mag, but the "magic air" comment got me thinking.. What really pushed me toward the 3C was the additional benefit that was mentioned of being able to store a spare lamp in the tailcap. It will be pushing the bulb hard after all, and if I'm to trust this thing in real-world use, it would be nice to know I can quickly throw a new bulb in if need be. I also ordered an AW soft-start/multi-level driver for it to make it even more reliable and versatile. Also as someone mentioned, I did need to buy the 10mm adapter for these cells to fit. 

I sold my previous 3D Mag85 to free up some funds for this one. Thanks for your help - this is going to be one sweet Mag85!


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## Patriot (May 7, 2008)

I think that a good choice rich. Now that I've used 3Cs I don't have in interest in going back.

Keeping an extra bulb handy is a good idea and limiting the voltage you charge your cells to is even more helpful.


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## LuxLuthor (May 7, 2008)

Rich, as others have said, there is no problem running 3 x Li-Ion cells. 1185 needs about 3.5Amps, so it won't trip the AW protection circuit like the 5761.

If you want to fit them in a Mag 2D, 3 x AW C Li-Ion's will fit IF you dremel out some of the bottom of the switch plastic in center so front most battery seats up a bit higher. Also you need to put a soft spring and rough up inside center of tailcap so contact is made with 3rd battery to spring to tailcap inside.

Here was an example of a 3D that FiveMega sold several times using 3s3p of Lithium 17500 (Pila 150s)

A 3C Mag is another alternative, but my main point is you need to watch your full charged voltage (or add some minor resistance). 

Usually with STOCK mag setups (stock switch, his bipin holder, and tail spring + batteries will give 250-300 milliohms resistance) like FM has done, if your charged Vbat is about 12.8V, you will lose a volt from resistance moving it into a safer, non-flashing bulb range. (Ohms Law V=IR so Vdrop=3.5Amps x 0.25 Ohms)


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## Timson (May 7, 2008)

Rich,

Remember AW's C cells are slightly longer than consumer C cells....

If you want space in the tailcap for a spare lamp - remember to get one of AW's 10mm spacers (if he still has any). :thumbsup:

EDIT - OOPS SAW YOU ALREADY DID THAT - Must read all the words


Tim.


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## Stereodude (May 7, 2008)

You're a bad influence on people Rich.  First you sell me your 6AA -> 2D RoP (my first hotwire) getting me hooked, then I read this thread and decide that I need to build a 2C RoP with AW's "C" Li-Ion cells for better run time and a smaller size. :candle:

Who knows what you'll talk me into next.


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## RichS (May 7, 2008)

Stereodude said:


> You're a bad influence on people Rich.  First you sell me your 6AA -> 2D RoP (my first hotwire) getting me hooked, then I read this thread and decide that I need to build a 2C RoP with AW's "C" Li-Ion cells for better run time and a smaller size. :candle:
> 
> Who know what you'll talk me into next.


 
Then my work here is done. :naughty:

If I have to be pulled into this vortex of pursuit of ever-brighter and better incandescent hotwires, I'm taking everyone I can with me!

Seriously though, if you really want to blame someone, blame LuxLuthor, mdocod, and 2XTrinity just to name a few...they are the truly bad influences! :devil:


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## LuxLuthor (May 7, 2008)

RichS said:


> Then my work here is done. :naughty:
> 
> If I have to be pulled into this vortex of pursuit of ever-brighter and better incandescent hotwires, I'm taking everyone I can with me!
> 
> Seriously though, if you really want to blame someone, blame LuxLuthor, mdocod, and 2XTrinity just to name a few...they are the truly bad influences! :devil:



I don't know what you are talking about!


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## RichS (May 7, 2008)

LuxLuthor said:


> A 3C Mag is another alternative, but my main point is you need to watch your full charged voltage (or add some minor resistance).



Thanks LuxLuthor. Now I'm just a little nervous about my config since I'm using AW's C driver which has super low resistance. I put one of these in a 2C Mag w/ 5761 bulb, and it seems twice as bright as when I ran it in a stock Mag config, even with a low resistance mod in the tailcap. I use a WF-139 charger and AW C batteries, and they charge up to about 4.10v. I don't think I've ever had a charge go to anything close to 4.20v. Would this be a pretty safe voltage, or am I still at risk of instaflash? Is there an easy way I can add resistance if I run into problems?

BTW - nice vortex Lux! But that one doesn't even compare with the real one you've helped to create here!


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## LuxLuthor (May 8, 2008)

RichS said:


> Thanks LuxLuthor. Now I'm just a little nervous about my config since I'm using AW's C driver which has super low resistance. I put one of these in a 2C Mag w/ 5761 bulb, and it seems twice as bright as when I ran it in a stock Mag config, even with a low resistance mod in the tailcap. I use a WF-139 charger and AW C batteries, and they charge up to about 4.10v. I don't think I've ever had a charge go to anything close to 4.20v. Would this be a pretty safe voltage, or am I still at risk of instaflash? Is there an easy way I can add resistance if I run into problems?
> 
> BTW - nice vortex Lux! But that one doesn't even compare with the real one you've helped to create here!



I remember asking AW who said his driver had around 200 milliohms, so I think you will be OK, especially with the soft starter feature, but I honestly have not tried that specific setup to know the total resistance....so I'm pretty sure that will be ok, but not 100% sure.


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## 2xTrinity (May 8, 2008)

RichS said:


> Thanks LuxLuthor. Now I'm just a little nervous about my config since I'm using AW's C driver which has super low resistance. I put one of these in a 2C Mag w/ 5761 bulb, and it seems twice as bright as when I ran it in a stock Mag config, even with a low resistance mod in the tailcap.



Here is an image from my recent incan shootout"





The image on the leftt is a 2C 5761 with a stock switch and AW C Cells, low resistance mods elsewhere (ie, Kiu socket, tailspring). The image on the right is also the 5761 using Kaidomain D-Cells. Just before the test, all the cells were charged to 4.15V

While I believe the kai cells actually are lower resistance, I believe most of the differnce is due to the switch. When switching the light off-on I actually hear a audible arc from the current in the stock switch 

Don't look at the relative brightnes --as the reflector used are different and the hotspot image is saturated -- but look instead at the color temperature. The lamp on the left is the same apparent color temp as my 3500k room lights. The lamp on the right (lower resistance D-Driver) is noticeably whiter. Tungsten melts at about 3700k. That means it's running JUST short of failure, and if resistance were as low without a PWM soft start, it would flash. 

Considering there is no inrush current with a soft starter, I would say as long as you don't charge your cells above 4.15V, you should be fine. And in the cae of the AW C-Cells, which sag more under the load than the Ds, you may be fine up to 4.2.


AW, if you'r ereading this, you need to come out with the _regulated_ version of these drivers already


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## RichS (May 8, 2008)

LuxLuthor said:


> I remember asking AW who said his driver had around 200 milliohms, so I think you will be OK, especially with the soft starter feature, but I honestly have not tried that specific setup to know the total resistance....so I'm pretty sure that will be ok, but not 100% sure.


Good to know, thanks. I'm feeling a little better about it, especially with the soft start. One thing's for sure though, this is going to be one white beam!


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## RichS (May 8, 2008)

2xTrinity said:


> Considering there is no inrush current with a soft starter, I would say as long as you don't charge your cells above 4.15V, you should be fine. And in the cae of the AW C-Cells, which sag more under the load than the Ds, you may be fine up to 4.2.


Thanks 2xTrinity. I guess since the regulated versions aren't ready yet it's good I'm going with the C cells. It sounds like from what you and Lux have said that with the soft start and slight sag of the C cells I should be relatively safe from instaflash. Based on my last Mag85 vs Mag61 shootout, it is going to be very interesting to see how these two new builds - each with an AW driver and C cells - is going to turn out! After seeing the crazy output of my new Mag61 build with the AW driver and C cells, I almost abandoned my Mag85 because it outclassed it by a good margin. In the end though, I would miss the nice tight, beautiful beam of the Mag85, so I had to do the same upgrade to it.

I just got the Borofloat lens today, still waiting on the AW parts....the anticipation is killing me!


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## Stereodude (May 8, 2008)

Does the Mag61 use a Phillips 5761?


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## RichS (May 8, 2008)

Stereodude said:


> Does the Mag61 use a Phillips 5761?


Yep.


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## 2xTrinity (May 9, 2008)

Stereodude said:


> Does the Mag61 use a Phillips 5761?


It's become a convention on here to title a light:

"Mag" the bulb number of a light without the leading two digits, ie:

Mag11 -- WA1111
Mag85 -- WA1185
Mag61 -- Philips 5761
Mag623 -- Osram 62623


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## Stereodude (May 9, 2008)

2xTrinity said:


> It's become a convention on here to title a light:
> 
> "Mag" the bulb number of a light without the leading two digits, ie:
> 
> ...


I know that... 

I was just partially confused by Rich's comment because on paper the 5761 doesn't necessarily look like a very good bulb to use with 2 AW's "C" Li-Ion's due to current draw being greater than 5A (the limit of the batteries circuitry) and the fact it goes poof at 7.9V, so I asked to double check. :shrug:


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## RichS (May 9, 2008)

Stereodude said:


> I know that...
> 
> I was just partially confused by Rich's comment because on paper the 5761 doesn't necessarily look like a very good bulb to use with 2 AW's "C" Li-Ion's due to current draw being greater than 5A (the limit of the batteries circuitry) and the fact it goes poof at 7.9V, so I asked to double check. :shrug:


 
Oh, my friend, let me tell you....

The Philips 5761 is the best bulb (IMHO) to use with 2 AW C batteries - in the right config of course.

AW C batteries are rated at 3300 mAH. The max you should push li-ions is 2C, which would be 6.6A for these cells. So first, at max draw you are within the safety limits using these batteries with the PH 5761. 

The next question then is will the protection circuit kick in when powering up the bulb - the answer is yes unless you are using a soft start. This is why I bought AW's C driver for soft start and levels. The beautiful thing about this setup (and I am still amazed at this thing...) is that it powers the bulb on full high with no problems (protection has never kicked in even once), and I can choose to run it at low or medium for longer runtime which is actually all I would ever need in reality. When I need a blast of light I just kick on high. On hight it honestly looks about 30% brighter than my Mag85 which puts out around 1300 lumens. I thought I was just "seeing things" since it was a new build, so I asked my wife and she agreed it was much brighter than the Mag85.

So in a tiny unit - a Mag C just seems tiny to me now after having a 2D ROP and 3D Mag85 - it is the brightest of the three with the most practicality and versatility. 

So when do you start your Mag61 mod?


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## Stereodude (May 9, 2008)

RichS said:


> So when do you start your Mag61 mod?


Never! :thinking: 

I'll just wait for you to sell yours when you upgrade. 

BTW, I was just being cautious because of this line from AW: " Recommended Max. Continuous Discharge Rate : 5A"


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## RichS (May 9, 2008)

Stereodude said:


> Never! :thinking:
> 
> I'll just wait for you to sell yours when you upgrade.
> 
> BTW, I was just being cautious because of this line from AW: " Recommended Max. Continuous Discharge Rate : 5A"


 
Smart man! Dang, I sell my stuff too cheap...:mecry:

Good point on the AW's discharge rate specification on these cells. I actually did ask him if it his C li-ions would safely power a Philips 5761 before purchasing my first two. He said it would work but it would be pushing them hard - which it is. This is when I decided to buy the C driver for soft starting to ease the start-up draw. They have over-discharge protection and they can be pushed up to 6A and still be below the li-ion safety limit of 2C. But anything over 5A will still cause these batteries to sag more than desired. AW mentioned to me in another PM that too high an amperage will cause the voltage to sag even on LiIon cells. He said that a 1 -1.5C draw should maintain a reasonable flat discharge.

Also, I'm sure if I constanty ran them at 5.5A this would probably somewhat reduce their overall life-cylce. Fortunately the multi-level driver gives me a choice. So it certainly makes sense for AW to state 5A as a recommended max discharge rate, but I'm not pushing them beyond a safe limit with the Philips 5761.


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## Stereodude (May 9, 2008)

I think I will wait for AW's "D" cell Li-Ion's before building a Mag61. 

It won't be as hard on the cells, have less voltage sag (aka be brighter), and it'll have a longer more useful runtime. :naughty:


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## RichS (May 9, 2008)

Stereodude said:


> I think I will wait for AW's "D" cell Li-Ion's before building a Mag61.
> 
> It won't be as hard on the cells, have less voltage sag (aka be brighter), and it'll have a longer more useful runtime. :naughty:



Well, it would be less hard on the cells, but I don't think it will be any brighter. If you saw how white this beam is on high, you'd know any more voltage and it would go 

Actually, the slight sag of the C cells is just enough to keep me from being forced to add artificial resistance. AW's driver took most of it away. I think if you're going to go with the D Cells you better either use the stock switch, or wait on the AW regulated driver. Now that would be a nice Mag61 build!

But it still won't be a 1400+ lumen light that will fit in a jacket pocket like the 2C. :devil:


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## Stereodude (May 9, 2008)

RichS said:


> I think if you're going to go with the D Cells you better either use the stock switch, or wait on the AW regulated driver.


 I'm not so sure about that. Supposedly a Mag with AW's switch has about 250mΩ of resistance after the tailcap mod (seems high to me though). That means with 5.0A of current there is a voltage drop of about 1.25V. Meaning the 8.4V from the 2 D Li-Ion ends up as 7.15V at the bulb. That isn't nearly enough to poof a 5761. 

I suspect a Mag with AW's switch and the tailcap mod is more along the lines of 100mΩ, which would mean you'd get a .5V drop to the bulb at 5A. That would put 7.9V to the Bulb which is right at the very ragged edge. That's where the soft start of the switch comes into play. :naughty:

Is there any word on when AW is coming out with a regulated driver? Do we even know if he's working on one? :thinking:


> But it still won't be a 1400+ lumen light that will fit in a jacket pocket like the 2C. :devil:


Maybe I have a jacket with really big pockets?


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## RichS (May 9, 2008)

Stereodude said:


> I'm not so sure about that. Supposedly a Mag with AW's switch has about 250mΩ of resistance after the tailcap mod (seems high to me though). That means with 5.0A of current there is a voltage drop of about 1.25V. Meaning the 8.4V from the 2 D Li-Ion ends up as 7.15V at the bulb. That isn't nearly enough to poof a 5761.
> 
> I suspect a Mag with AW's switch and the tailcap mod is more along the lines of 100mΩ, which would mean you'd get a .5V drop to the bulb at 5A. That would put 7.9V to the Bulb which is right at the very ragged edge. That's where the soft start of the switch comes into play. :naughty:
> 
> ...



Ok, but you're braver than me! :green: Actually, at 7.9v it did go  in Lux's destructive bulb tests. Even if it was a little lower (7.7 or 7.8) it may not pop but I bet you'd get no more than 2 hours of life out of the bulb... 

Yes - AW is working on a regulated version of his driver, thus this thread: 

https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/173558

I asked him how long it would be before these were ready before I purchased his current incandescent driver for my Mag85 build a week ago, and he told me it would still be a while yet.


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## Stereodude (May 9, 2008)

RichS said:


> Yes - AW is working on a regulated version of his driver, thus this thread:
> 
> https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/173558
> 
> I asked him how long it would be before these were ready before I purchased his current incandescent driver for my Mag85 build a week ago, and he told me it would still be a while yet.


Interesting. I'll admit I'm not a big fan of the lack of user adjustability. Having to buy a new regulated switch every time you want to change from one light design to another say from a Mag61 to a Mag85 kinda blows. :sick2:


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## 2xTrinity (May 9, 2008)

Stereodude said:


> Interesting. I'll admit I'm not a big fan of the lack of user adjustability. Having to buy a new regulated switch every time you want to change from one light design to another say from a Mag61 to a Mag85 kinda blows. :sick2:


Yeah, that is a bit annoying. IMO a crude way AW could have included user adjustability is as follows -- have the RMS voltage ouptut set by a trimpot that is user adjustable WHILE the driver in installed in the light, perhaps with an exposed adjustment screw near the switch opening.

Then, ship the drievr with the voltage automatically set to its lowest possible setting. Install the appropriate bulb in cells, then with the light, allow the user to gradually turn the trimpot until the bulb reaches an ideal color temperature (say >3500k, indicating it's close to "flashing" point).


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## RichS (May 9, 2008)

Well, I'm not sure that I would call them annoying, I know there are plenty of people on pins and needs waiting on these. I think they will bring the world of hotwires to a whole new level. Albeit, you want to decide a mod that you are going to use and keep for a while before buying one.

I am actually not sure I will be upgrading to one of these from the current ones though. I really like the idea of having regulated output, but AW enlightened me to the fact that PWM (which the current models use for levels) is much more efficient than a boost or buck regulator. Since I want to use this as an all around go-to light for outdoors, levels are important to me. Here is what AW said about PWM in incandescents:

"The PWM regulation has the best efficiency ( 99+% ) and the normal PWM flash will not be noticeable at any rate because of the incan after glow. The best buck regulator has a max of 80 % effic. and a boost regulator is 70% at best. Both the buck / boost driver will not be able to handle the amperage demand in incan lights like PWM does because the heat generated is huge from efficiency loss."


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## 2xTrinity (May 9, 2008)

RichS said:


> Well, I'm not sure that I would call them annoying, I know there are plenty of people on pins and needs waiting on these. I think they will bring the world of hotwires to a whole new level. Albeit, you want to decide a mod that you are going to use and keep for a while before buying one.
> 
> I am actually not sure I will be upgrading to one of these from the current ones though. I really like the idea of having regulated output, but AW enlightened me to the fact that PWM (which the current models use for levels) is much more efficient than a boost or buck regulator. Since I want to use this as an all around go-to light for outdoors, levels are important to me. Here is what AW said about PWM in incandescents:


I think you misinterpreted what he was saying -- he doesn't mean that the regulated drivers are any less efficient -- the new regulated drivers are still PWM drivers. 

The fact that a filament has thermal inertia, ie takes time to heat up and cool down, means that no additional filtering is required -- driving an incan with 50% duty cycle PWM is effectively half the voltage. This is essentially how household dimmers work, they simply "chop off" part of the sine wave input, which is why adapting fluorescent or LED technology to work on incan dimmers is a huge nightmare.

So in stead of letting the user select the duty cycle, the "driver" selects the duty cycle based on the state-of-charge the battery, so as to maintain constant brightness. 

I probably will buy one and simply order it with a spec. suitable for the philips 5761, which should work for a number of 6V bulb should I decide to use a different one.


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## Stereodude (May 9, 2008)

You can do Buck at better than 90% as well as boost. I have no idea what AW is talking about. You can get better than 95% even. You can build a switching regulator that can power a incandescent light without too much difficulty. :thinking:


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## RichS (May 9, 2008)

Stereodude said:


> You can do Buck at better than 90% as well as boost. I have no idea what AW is talking about. You can get better than 95% even. You can build a switching regulator that can power a incandescent light without too much difficulty. :thinking:



Ok, well I won't argue the point since I'm not an expert on this, but I still tend to view AW as somewhat of an authority on the subject for the time being. I haven't seen many other incan drivers for sale around here, and I've seen what his can do. And with the demand for a regulated driver, you'd think someone would be selling them if it were easy.

Just my .02


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## Patriot (May 9, 2008)

RichS said:


> Oh, my friend, let me tell you....
> 
> The Philips 5761 is the best bulb (IMHO) to use with 2 AW C batteries - in the right config of course.
> 
> ...




You've got my attention! This sounds great, but so far It's not computing for me. I'm trying to understand how the 5761 on 2C's is that much brighter than the mag85. I guess I need to go study the charts again. :thinking:


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## RichS (May 9, 2008)

Patriot36 said:


> You've got my attention! This sounds great, but so far It's not computing for me. I'm trying to understand how the 5761 on 2C's is that much brighter than the mag85. I guess I need to go study the charts again. :thinking:


I don't know how, but it is!! And I have witnesses. 

Actually, this is what I expected originally when I built my first Mag61. I looked at LuxLuthors Most Powerful Mag Mods list, and saw the Mag61 two steps higher than the Mag85. I couldn't imagine an even smaller Mag brighter than the Mag85 which I thought was a beast. So I decided to go ahead and build the Mag61.

I ran the first Mag61 on Eneloops and FM battery holder. It was brighter than my M6 HOLA, but about 30% less bright than my Mag85. But this build is easily brighter by 25-30%. It is very white too, which could mean it is very close to the edge voltage-wise. One thing that may make the output seem like so much more than the Mag85 is the very large hot spot. It is definitely much bigger, but also seems more intense than the Mag85.


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## RichS (May 9, 2008)

Thanks for the clarification. I thought I read that the new regulated drivers would not be using PWM for levels. So now I'm going to have to upgrade....dang it....oh well, that's what the MP is for!



2xTrinity said:


> I think you misinterpreted what he was saying -- he doesn't mean that the regulated drivers are any less efficient -- the new regulated drivers are still PWM drivers.
> 
> The fact that a filament has thermal inertia, ie takes time to heat up and cool down, means that no additional filtering is required -- driving an incan with 50% duty cycle PWM is effectively half the voltage. This is essentially how household dimmers work, they simply "chop off" part of the sine wave input, which is why adapting fluorescent or LED technology to work on incan dimmers is a huge nightmare.
> 
> ...


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## Patriot (May 10, 2008)

Ok, I went and looked at the bulb charts again and at 7.4V the 5761 is just over 1300 bulb lumens. At 11.1V the 1185 is just a hair under 1300 bulb lumens. The difference is that the 5761 on 2Cs will sag more that 3Cs in an 1185. So yeah.....I guess I am surprised that it's brighter. What formula mag85 are you running?


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## LuxLuthor (May 10, 2008)

Only the AWR Hotdriver has had adjustable POT to use it with various voltages, but is no longer available.

AW's regulated model has very high stamped together quality, and will likely be more stable and have multi-level output. I don't see that big of a downside to plan ahead and use one AW driver for a given bulb....now that we pretty much know how they all perform.

Having played with tons of combinations of hotwire mags, you really need to take into consideration the actual delivered voltages in a direct drive setup that compares 1185 vs. 5761. Without regulation, you are dealing with a battery drain curve dependent on many factors. There are significant differences also in bulb filament & color. For example, I greatly prefer the 1166 bulb in AWR hotdriver set at 12.6V vs. 1185 set at 11.0V because of the bulb quality/color, even if less total lumen output. Same point with direct drive of 64625 on 11 NiMH cells vs. 64623 on 13 NiMH cells.


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## RichS (May 10, 2008)

Patriot36 said:


> Ok, I went and looked at the bulb charts again and at 7.4V the 5761 is just over 1300 bulb lumens. At 11.1V the 1185 is just a hair under 1300 bulb lumens. The difference is that the 5761 on 2Cs will sag more that 3Cs in an 1185. So yeah.....I guess I am surprised that it's brighter. What formula mag85 are you running?



Well, I am updating my Mag85 (thus this thread), and I just sold my 3D Mag85 on CPFMP. It was running 3 x AW18650s w/ modded tailcap but had the stock switch, so definitely more resistance than my new Mag61. My new Mag85 (thanks to the suggestions here) will be a 3C Mag w/ 3 x AW Cs along with an AW C incan driver. So...until the rest of the parts arrive the jury is out on the difference between the two, because only then will the build type will be apples to apples. 

I guess I should have mentioned the build differences, but I guess I was thinking they are both li-ion configs. But the C batteries will definitely sag less than the 18650s, and the AW driver of course has much less resistance than the stock switch. So if you're right and the 1185 should about match the 5761, and I'm going to be very pleased with my new build!!


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## RichS (May 10, 2008)

LuxLuthor said:


> There are significant differences also in bulb filament & color. For example, I greatly prefer the 1166 bulb in AWR hotdriver set at 12.6V vs. 1185 set at 11.0V because of the bulb quality/color, even if less total lumen output. Same point with direct drive of 64625 on 11 NiMH cells vs. 64623 on 13 NiMH cells.


This is exactly why I decided to update my Mag85. I was about to abandon this build after I saw how bright the Mag61 could be in a more compact host, but the Mag85 has such a nice beam pattern and smaller spot, I wanted to update it as well. It always had a nicer, whiter color than my Mag61 too, but I think the Mag61 is just about as white on high now. I probably wouldn't run it on high for long though, and on low/med the 61 is much more yellow. 

So, as the motto goes...I got both!


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## 2xTrinity (May 10, 2008)

RichS said:


> This is exactly why I decided to update my Mag85. I was about to abandon this build after I saw how bright the Mag61 could be in a more compact host, but the Mag85 has such a nice beam pattern and smaller spot, I wanted to update it as well. It always had a nicer, whiter color than my Mag61 too, but I think the Mag61 is just about as white on high now. I probably wouldn't run it on high for long though, and on low/med the 61 is much more yellow.
> 
> So, as the motto goes...I got both!


Yeah, I really like the more compact filament packinging on the 1185, and the fact that the bulb is smaller than the 5761, so it will fit in the smaller-opening reflectors -- this actually leads to a significant number of more lumens making it out the front, as a significant fraction of the bulb lumens disappear down the "hole" in the base of the reflector, which represents a fairly big angle in the case of the 5761.


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## LuxLuthor (May 10, 2008)

RichS said:


> This is exactly why I decided to update my Mag85. I was about to abandon this build after I saw how bright the Mag61 could be in a more compact host, but the Mag85 has such a nice beam pattern and smaller spot, I wanted to update it as well. It always had a nicer, whiter color than my Mag61 too, but I think the Mag61 is just about as white on high now. I probably wouldn't run it on high for long though, and on low/med the 61 is much more yellow.
> 
> So, as the motto goes...I got both!



That's the spirit! In reality, there are so many variations as we are discussing....each with pro's and con's that it is good to play around experimenting. It makes this a fun hobby. Many who don't have a brilliant white 5761 are not driving it with enough voltage and amps.


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## cat (May 12, 2008)

RichS, which reflector are you using with your 2C 5761?


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## cat (May 12, 2008)

Re the voltage for 5761... some people said that the best is 6.9V, because of individual variation in 5761, and they when they get older they instaflash at V they were ok with when new.


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## RichS (May 12, 2008)

cat said:


> RichS, which reflector are you using with your 2C 5761?


I am using the FM MOP Cam/Camless reflector (w/out the cam installed). 

I ordered a VLOP camless reflector for my new 3C Mag85 build from Litho123. I really liked the SMO in my old Mag85, so this will be very close. If I end up really liking it I may also get one for my Mag61.


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## cat (May 14, 2008)

Northern Lights favourite, what I did, use a smooth reflector and frost the bottom part of the 5761 bulb.


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## RichS (May 14, 2008)

cat said:


> Northern Lights favourite, what I did, use a smooth reflector and frost the bottom part of the 5761 bulb.


I'm not sure I understand the benefit of this. Forgive my ignorance, but wouldn't this make the spot nice and smooth but reduce the throw? I would think you would want throw if you are going with a SMO reflector, and since a hotspot is already very intense wouldn't it be more beneficial to smooth out the spill area? It sounds very intriging, but I'm not seeing the benefits.

Please enlighten me. :candle:


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## cat (May 18, 2008)

Find some Northern Lights posts on the 5761. He needs throw, so he uses smooth reflectors, and frosts the lower part of the bulb up to the level of the filament to reduce the "batwing" type artefacts. So, minimal light lost from the frosting, because the front of the bulb is not frosted. 
[I think that doesn't sound very clear but find his posts and you'll see.] 

Mine still has "batwings", though. I'm trying to decide between a HS and a MS reflector, before they're sold out. I do have a MOP, though, that I haven't tried yet.


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## RichS (May 18, 2008)

cat said:


> Find some Northern Lights posts on the 5761. He needs throw, so he uses smooth reflectors, and frosts the lower part of the bulb up to the level of the filament to reduce the "batwing" type artefacts. So, minimal light lost from the frosting, because the front of the bulb is not frosted.
> [I think that doesn't sound very clear but find his posts and you'll see.]
> 
> Mine still has "batwings", though. I'm trying to decide between a HS and a MS reflector, before they're sold out. I do have a MOP, though, that I haven't tried yet.


Thanks, that does help. I can see how this would smooth out the hotspot, but I am thinking it would also somewhat reduce throw. 

Also, I am familiar with the "batwing" shape, I get this with my TL-3/Carly H1499 hotwire. But I'm surprised to here you're getting this with your Philips 5761 mod. Mine is nice and round, with really no oval or "batwing" shape to it at all. I am using a MOP reflector, but I wouldn't think that would be enough to make it completely round. My TL-3 also has an OP reflector, and it has a very distinct batwing shape. I just took a couple of pics with my Mag61 and TL-3 pointed at the ceiling with me laying on the floor, so from about 8 feet so you can see the hotspot shapes I'm getting with each of these lights. Of course at a closer distance they would both look even more round, so this distance accentuates the hotspot irregularities. 

*Mag61 - Philips 5761 w/ FM MOP Reflector






Streamlight TL-3 w/ Carly H1499 OP




*


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## 2xTrinity (May 19, 2008)

5761 Kai SMO vs MOP. Keep in mind that the fivemega MOP is actally somewhere in between these two (Kai is more heavily textured). 

Note that in the case of the MOP, the host has lower resistance therefore runs significantly more lumens:

Click images to see full size:


 
LEFT: Kai SMO
RIGHT: Kai MOP

The "batwing" here is the shadow cast by the small posts that hold the filament in place. For a "throw" light I personally don't mind it -- If I'm actually trying to look at something far away, artifacts like that tend to disappear, anyway.



 
Kai MOP




Kai SMO


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