# The Current Trends of CPF -- One newbie's opinion



## carrot (Jan 25, 2007)

I mean to address this to all users of CPF, whether you are an old-timer, a seasoned newbie, or a budding flashaholic, if you feel that CPF is something important to you, I hope that (without myself being conceited or pretentious), you will read this. I plead to you, the reader, to save or bookmark this thread if it is too long for you to read right now. Read it in parts, maybe. But my hope is what I have to say is heard.

Please excuse me if my writing is a bit long. But the trends of CPF from my viewpoint are of a one year timeframe, complimented with the ability to look to the past (the archives) from time to time. I guess the most "old-timer" thing I can say is, when I was your age (judging by CPF join dates, of course), Luxeons and the first 1AA light to use a Luxeon (L1P) were the hot item. Which isn't much at all, but that year has given me enough experience to say that CPF has changed, and perhaps to the detriment of this enthusiast hobby. 

I do not mean for this thread to be pointed at anyone or anybody in specific. I very rarely hold grudges, and in this case I have forgotten every particular instance of posts I have found distasteful. I hope that I do offend some people, but no one in particular, because if I do, it means my point has been mulled over, thought out and that it has been properly delivered. If nobody is in the very least incensed over what I have to say, then I believe my days on CPF might be numbered. Because what I have to say is about the direction CPF went over the last year, and where it may be heading.

If history professors are right about historical preservation and dated op-ed's being critical, this may be the most important thing (to myself, in the very least) I have ever posted or will post here, because it reflects not only myself and my relation to this hobby, but how CPF has changed over the past year, whether for better or for worse. 

I have been on CPF for a year and a month now. I came here because I had just gotten a Surefire G2 and I was excited about it. It was my first, what we call here "real," flashlight. I had seen CPF months before, but first turned away as the not-so aesthetically pleasing logo and immensely large and active forums scared me off.

I made a few threads here and there, but mostly I read. And once in awhile, when I could offer information, I would, taking care to imply the amount of credibility the information was based on my sources and wording. 

Turn back the wayback machine and go to the happy past. In display options at the bottom of any specific forum you can select the oldest threads to be shown. I selected "Last Year" and then after it loaded a new page, clicked "Last »."

You'll see topics that were posted, not just discussing "Which flashlight is the Best for $50," or "What should I buy?" or "I just bought xxx light!" but things that were a lot less consumerist/materialist in nature. You'll see topics like "Brainstorming about new designs," "Giving a toastmaster speech," "Flashlights on 'Company Time,'" and "Poll: The strength of your EDC flashlight." We were happy not discussing in every thread what our next supreme purchase would be, or what *your* next light should be, but to discuss our current ones, our uses, and our hobby itself.

When I stop reminiscing about the good old days, which frankly wasn't very long ago, I am jarred back into the future present where all of a sudden we are no longer happy with what we have. Certainly nothing about our lights have changed. They have not suddenly gotten dimmer, dumber or less efficient. As a collective whole, we have not gotten desensitized to our current EDC's brightness. Yet we are suddenly wanting and needing more. 

The current hype is amazing. It is contagious, and it certainly eclipses the overwhelming reaction to the original Fenix offerings, which pretty much just started getting into the hands of greedy flashaholics all over the nation just as I came onto CPF.

_Don't buy that light! It's outdated, underpowered, and there are new models just on the horizon, for just double the cost of the light that others have assured you will suit your needs!_ I feel like I hear this a lot nowadays. *It disgusts me to the point that it almost makes me want to leave CPF*, but I cannot because I still have myths and disinformation to dispel. Worse still, I sometimes see bashing of lights and manufacturers simply because they don't make what the user, or should I say armchair flashaholic, is looking for, or at least, what the flashaholic can afford. _It often occurs to me that we are starting to act like *sheep*._

Certainly we would all like to pretend we *need* a flashlight that can put out a thousand lumens, throw a wide, usable hotspot across a football field, and run for hundreds of hours. But I am willing to bet on my little flashlight collection that if all of a sudden our high-powered hotwires and tiny overpowered Cree lights and "outdated" Luxeons were erased from our lives and all we had were Maglites and dinky Surefire E1e's and Arc-AAA's most of us would be quite well served. 

Stand back for a moment and think, do you *really* need the latest and greatest? With the rate of improvements in electronics, I quickly gave up the "need" for having the latest and greatest gadget, and with the current rate of improvements in LED technology, I feel that trying to keep up is a very hard pursuit financially, and not worth it in the long run. All you gain by doing so is get bragging rights, and to someone for whom utility is much more meaningful, bragging rights means little. I have long ago stopped caring about letting people know what lights I own, because I don't need to broadcast what I have to feel special. If you go through all my posts on CPF you might get a pretty good idea of what lights I own and what lights I hold dear to me. But aside from a flashaholic's first purchase, few if any lights warrant creating threads announcing their acquisition. And so bragging rights becomes a really insignificant reason to own a light.

I now understand what one newbie asked us CPFers once, "do you feel that flashlights have intrinsic value?" I say unless they're in your pocket, or in your bag, or in your hands being used, they have a value of zero. That's right, ZERO. Because when they are not being used they have, for the most part, as much value as having a shiny polished rock on your desk or shelves.

Veterans are no longer treated with respect ("damned kids!"), and combined with the shift of focus from hobby to materialism, it is causing veterans to move on. More and more frequently, posts that used to be answered by veterans are answered by completely green newbies, and not an old-timer in sight. A great deal of information gets lost this way. We must do our part to keep information alive.

As I mentioned before, CPF has slowly coasted to a place where the flashlight hobby of using, maintaining, designing and appreciating lights is becoming twisted and distilled to a sad state of greedy materialistic armchair flashaholics. What was once a hobby is now a money drain, and lights are not so much being purchased to actually use, but to behold and to show off. Mass consumerism at its finest, indeed. It is saddening and it is disturbing, and it is driving away more experienced CPFers. This is truth, not speculation. This thread is only one of many examples. Others, such as tvodrd, JSB, greenLED and a few whose names I cannot remember off the top of my head, have already considerably cut down their activity on CPF.

So what can you do? Unfortunately it is difficult to go against a trend or the masses. But you can start by refusing to be a sheep, refusing to follow the masses, and by giving the less consumerist "hobby appreciation"-type threads more consideration and thought. You can start threads that help us remember why we enjoy the hobby and why we enjoy talking about lights, so that not every new thread listed is another about the latest and greatest. And you can buy from CPF-supporting modding parts vendors like Fivemega and Modamag and the Sandwich Shoppe. (Just names off the top of my head.)



Thank you for your time, and thank you for listening.

- carrot, self-described collector and distributor of (mis)information



Edit: Feel free to tell me off via PM, but I would prefer if anything thought to be important was shared in public view.


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## SkinlessMonkey (Jan 25, 2007)

I haven't been here long enough to see the change your talking about. I like getting new lights for showing off and also for use. A lot of hobbies are eventually delve down into bragging contests. I'm not really sure what I'm trying to say, but I kind of understand where you're coming from and hope that things change for the better.


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## carrot (Jan 25, 2007)

SkinlessMonkey said:


> I haven't been here long enough to see the change your talking about. I like getting new lights for showing off and also for use. A lot of hobbies are eventually delve down into bragging contests. I'm not really sure what I'm trying to say, but I kind of understand where you're coming from and hope that things change for the better.


Certainly, there is nothing wrong with what basically amounts to the flashlight version of locker room... err, comparisons and p***ing contests, but I find it sad to see that CPF has been reduced to only this, when only a year ago threads less about materialism and more about real, thought-out discussions were more commonplace. Take, for instance, the thread titled "Are Surefires worth the money?", a thread that contained an excellent many posts breaking down the value of a Surefire and why people felt they were (or weren't!) worth the hard-earned money. Or worse, what used to be a modder's hobby being turned completely into a commercial, "out-of-the-box experience" affair.


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## NAW (Jan 25, 2007)

Years ago when I was a little kid, I always pocketed a Mini Maglite. I knew back then that I absolutley loved flashlights. Since then I had purchased alot of lights like a 9P with a P91. But to this very day I still EDC that same Mini Mag with a weak nite-ize LED as well as a Streamlight Propolymer 4AA LED, even though I have access to a 9P.


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## iNDiGLo (Jan 25, 2007)

I have to stand behind carrot on his assesment of the state of CPF. I have been around approximately the same length of time and i have also noticed a trend of threads that seem to be about "quick to judge" or "quick to anger" over things that simply come down to materialism and who can **** the farthest.

I think he said it best when he said this:

_ "CPF has slowly coasted to a place where the flashlight hobby of using, maintaining, designing and appreciating lights is becoming twisted and distilled to a sad state of greedy materialistic armchair flashaholics. What was once a hobby is now a money drain, and lights are not so much being purchased to actually use, but to behold and to show off."_

I am still passionate about flashlights and the technology in general and will continue to educate myself and help others when i feel i have something of value to offer.

Lets hope 2007 and beyond allows us to refocus our commitment to helping our fellow flashaholics and new members encouraged to be here and learn from each other in a positive way. :candle:






I am not a sheep.

* iNDiGLo*


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## Penguin (Jan 25, 2007)

Carrot, I understand where you're coming from and in my almost 4 years on the boards I've seen a great change in the forums, some good, some bad. When I first signed onto the CPF, the original black Arc AAA's were the hottest thing, Tactical Warehouse and Bulldog Enterprises were the only place to get your Surefire fix and everyone had a very warm and welcoming attitude. CPF is still one of the best BBS's I've seen online despite how 'commercial' it got. I agree with your argument, we should take a step back and take the CPF for what it is, a means to have fun with our neat lights and discuss them. Sure, CPF is a terrific way to find out whats the hottest new light on the market, but it can also be used as a vessel to discuss the intrinsic value of your lights, something many of us might have forgotten.


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## LowBat (Jan 25, 2007)

I see what you're saying carrot. There are commercial interests here along with the hobbyist. I think it really comes down to which parts of CPF you want to spend your time, or money, on. When I started here two years ago I was spending the bulk of my time reading and posting in the General and LED categories. After my first year I seem to have migrated onto the Cafe and Get Together threads, and somehow find myself now organizing events. How did that happen?!?

FWIW, I only own 5 flashlights after two years and some 1,400 posts. Well, that is until Mr. Chow mails me a couple of L1Ds.


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## Lightmeup (Jan 25, 2007)

I agree, there seems to be a sort of mob-like obsession with many folks about getting the newest, brightest, smallest, etc., trinket as they become available. I don't really understand the phenomena. I can't really think of any way my quality of life would be seriously degraded if my f/l only produced 30 lumens instead of 40, like some newly-released model, etc. I doubt I could even notice the difference under most normal operating conditions. I think it makes sense to wait a while before buying these new toys to let the manufacturers get all of the bugs out, and for the price to drop after the surge of fanatics buy up every available piece when they are first released. JMO.


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## shiftd (Jan 25, 2007)

I agree with what Carrot said. I have been here since 2002, time where the led lights were just coming out, and Dat2Zip just released his sammich. I bought MM, BB400 and such. I still remember when I bought lightwave2000 and think “wow, this thing is much better than my gaglight!” When I popped in the sammich, it was a real eye opener!! 
Most of the chattering that happened on CPF at the time were mostly happen in the homemade/ electronics section. BST were there, but it was mostly based on community spirit of sharing is caring. In essence, CPF of old is like a BIG family, where you hang out to have fun, talk about hobbies with fellow flashaholics, warm and fuzzy feelings all around. At this time, the flashlight industries on CPF were mostly based on hobbies and enthusiasm.

Welp, 4 and some years later, a lot of it has changed. CPF is now mainly a forum where marketers sell. We still talk about our hobbies here, but not as intense as it used to be. Most of the BST that happens now is based on profit. Sure, a little percentage still based on community spirit, but that is more like an exception rather than the norm. People bringing in new lights not because they want to innovate, but rather because there is a high money to be made. I don’t blame the innovators for not posting more. Judging from how much copy infringement to one’s idea, I don’t see them posting anytime soon. 

CPF has grow big over the years, both for its good and bad. But from my point of view, it is mostly for the bad. Yeah, we usually get good deals on lights and we get to influence what lights come up with what, but at what expense? We lost the warmth that used to make up CPF. I guess this is also the reason why old timers left/ rarely post anymore. It is just so disheartening. I guess CPF is more and more becoming market place than a community. It is all about the next good deal!


It is late and I cannot sleep, so this is just my 15 lumens


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## LEDcandle (Jan 25, 2007)

Well, CPF is only what its people make it. If all the old timers and contributors pack up and leave due to a change in culture, all the more it will sink! I haven't been here that long either, but I do see what carrot means. Although the warmth of sharing and going through all the financially-draining ordeals still remain fundamentally the same, there has been a lot of commercialism lately, with many new offerings from Asian dealers. 

This shouldn't be seen negatively though! It gives us more options.... ultimately the lights we purchase are our decision! We may choose to pursue the latest and greatest or choose to ride out the storm but as long as we share our hopes, dreams and mods, we'll have a very real community here with real people. 

We can 'fight' this together; continue sharing our knowledge, mods, suggestions etc. in a polite and objective manner and we'll continue forging ahead towards 500lumen/watt LEDs!  (And of course, there will be some casualties financially along this journey.... haha )


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## Rudi (Jan 25, 2007)

I've visited this site since before Luxeon Stars, and from my perspective *CPF has only changed for the better*. Perhaps the perceived change for the worse reflects the different priorities of its present population. This could easily be verified by comparing old-timers' old posts with their recent ones. The continuity of CPF is in the hands of a few old-timers, and their priorities seem unchanged. Besides, it's easy on CPF to concentrate on what interests you and ignore what annoys you.


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## Sub_Umbra (Jan 25, 2007)

I hear you Carrot. I have also been troubled by the things you address and I've had to come up with different ways of dealing with them in my mind. The bottom line (for me) is that in spite of all the chaos there is still a lot of expertise here -- perhaps under the surface. My tastes run pretty far away from *'smallest, brightest, newest.'* Try to not let the masses get to you. One of the things that makes lights so interesting any more is that they are going through an extended period of rapid change. This will always bring out the best and the worst aspects of any subject. It's a given. 

While we may sometimes feel we are awash with _'armchair flashaholics'_ the nature of this place is that the very serious will be drawn here, too. 

Personally, I find comfort and *community* in the knowledge that if I see or start a thread with words "blue light" or "cyan light" in the subject line it will soon be visited by a few whose points of view I respect. The same is true for a few of my other pet subjects. That's good.


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## eebowler (Jan 25, 2007)

Change will happen; sometimes for the worst.


carrot said:


> More and more frequently, posts that used to be answered by veterans are answered by completely green newbies, and not an old-timer in sight. A great deal of information gets lost this way. We must do our part to keep information alive.


 I've actually been noticing this trend for close to a year now (if not more) and I do understand partially why it's so. For me, it becomes somewhat annoying seeing the same thread pop up again and again in practically the same form. Giving the same answer repeatedly is tedious especially when you know that the answer wouldn't have taken much effort to find in the first place. People are getting lazier as the years go by. I can't even begin to know how it feels for the older/ more technical heads who have information to share. No, I'm blaming the mods here. They have lots of work to do and remembering all the threads in their subforum is impossible.


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## Frenchyled (Jan 25, 2007)

I remember me my first question in CPF....It was about my X990 in the HID flashlights section...and MR Ted Bears replied quickly even if my english was very bad  (not really better now.. but who knows ?  )
YEah, I agree CPF has changed, but I think it's normal and you can still find some nice threads where the word "help" means something 
YEah the commercial aspect is more important than in 2002, but flashlight market have changed too !!!
Like another member said, in 2002 it was only the birth date of luxeon LED, at least for our small flashlights  The growing market changed some mentalities...but frankly CPF is still a very nice and friendly Forum !!


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## DieselDave (Jan 25, 2007)

People come and people go. CPF has had a number of ups and downs. Some good people have left for any number of reasons and other good ones arrived to take their place. Since I've started we've have always had members I choose to ignore. Some of them are still here and considered experts and I see them as nothing more than a fly in he ointment. 

We often get new members with much to offer and some of the so-called experts shout them down and of course that street runs both ways. CPF has evolved. If you look at what it was in 2000-2001 (before me) they were a super close-knit group. They were close because there were so few members they all knew each other and treated each other with respect. Now we have thousands of members from all walks of life across the world. Some members are here for the love of torches and some with an agenda. CPF is nothing more than a slice of the world, a good slice IMO. 

I think CPF’s existence accelerated the advancement of cutting edge torches across the spectrum over the past year and even further back. I seriously doubt if the biggest name in the torch industry would be selling LED torches right now if it weren’t for CPF. Our members, modders and other manufactures that work with many of our members forced them to change and for that we should be proud. 

Is CPF worse than 1 year ago? It’s different, it has rough spots, it’s changed but I think it’s better. We will always have members that are bad for CPF but we get more that are good. Our good members, 95%, essentially run the site now with only minimum input fromt he staff. 3 years ago we had to try and follow each and every thread closely. Now we have 3 times as many threads and it takes less of our time. I say CPF is better.


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## Manzerick (Jan 25, 2007)

I see what you're saying. When i was green the "oldies" were very helpful in getting me up to speed. Def. Missed! (though most are still here like Al, Don, and such)

As for the topics you mention Mr Carrot, I too miss them. It was a way to almost come together and talk about torches and not only their attributes all the time. 

I use to start more "fluffy flashlight fun" threads like that as they are relevant, fun and just a good time but it I think i talked it to death LOL Just wait folks, more are coming...

I have to get back to work now.. (reading the whole thread was LONG but worhtit!! LOL)






carrot said:


> >too long to quote<<.


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## Christoph (Jan 25, 2007)

No words of wisdom here from me.Things change all the time,its when things don't change that I would worry.I have gotten caught up in the latest and greatest race myself that comes from having discretionary funds and showing no discretion.I will be fixed with my next purchase I promise I will.:candle: There is so much more avalible to us these days and it changes from day to day.We live in interesting times. I can hardly wait to wake up each day and see what happens.
C


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## Thujone (Jan 25, 2007)

Firstly Carrot I respect everything you have said. I would just like to point out that there has been somewhat of an LED revolution in the past few months and a lot of the hype and excitement/consumerism is being driven by all of the new products coming out utilizing that new technology. If things slow down on the tech front you will see stabilization in the subject matter again. I have not noticed the changes you speak of any where other than the LED forum. Life is a roller coaster, enjoy the ride.


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## Greta (Jan 25, 2007)

Something that was said to me recently at SHOT has been on my mind and I've been waiting for an opportunity to 

relate this little story... this seems a good thread to do so...





> ... All you gain by doing so is get bragging rights, and to someone for whom utility is much more
> 
> meaningful, bragging rights means little....





Talking with another CPF member regarding my personal preferences in a flashlight, I reached into my purse and 

pulled out the two lights that I carry with me at all times... my EDC, if you will. An original Larry Light (1 of the first 5 

made) and a recently aquired E1W. The other CPF members who were standing by and listening to the 

conversation got that "look" on their faces with the indulgent smile that implied, "Well she's a chick... what does 

she know about _REAL_ flashlights?". I explained that the two lights suited my needs just perfectly... ever the 

KISS principle (Keep It Simple Stupid!) Then the comment was made... "You must laugh at those of us who are 

constantly talking about and wanting more lumens and functions etc". And my reply? "ABSOLUTELY NOT!!"... If 

you need more lumens and functions for _YOUR_ needs, then go for it! It just doesn't suit _MY_ needs! I would 

never even dream of laughing or demeaning anyone for what _THEIR_ needs are... no more than I would 

imagine anyone laughing at me because _MY_ needs are much simpler... I really _AM_ just a chick... and 

other than shoes and purses, my needs are simple...  However... perhaps once or twice a year, when we have 

a good rain, the washes run and flood the streets... and I can hear the water rushing by when I sit out on my back 

patio. So I do have a very sweet L6 in order to keep an eye on the wash to make sure it's not getting too high up 

to my back yard. And then there's the occasional pack of coyotes who decide to chase the bunnies in the wash... 

the L6 does nicely to chase them away also.... :duck: Yes... CPF's collective attitude has definately changed 

when it comes to actual individual utility. One doesn't *NEED* a power drill with a screwdriver attachment to 

tighten the tiny screw at the corner of one's reading glasses... the tip of a steak knife in the kitchen drawer works 

just fine... 



> I say unless they're in your pocket, or in your bag, or in your hands being used, they have a value of zero.
> 
> That's right, ZERO. Because when they are not being used they have, for the most part, as much value as having
> 
> a shiny polished rock on your desk or shelves.





AGREED!! _BUT!!_... as one who has several "collections" of pretty, shiney things (miniature shoes, bulldog 

statuettes, fairy statuettes, etc), "VALUE" is completely subjective. I have MANY "shelf queens". Most have only 

been lit up once or twice. So why do I have them? Because I *LIKE* them! They are pretty to me and I simply 

like having them and looking at them. And some day, they may even suit my needs for a particular task... who 

knows? :shrug: I don't rule it out. The point is though that once upon a time, *MY* attitude about my 

"collection" and my EDC would not have been scoffed at on CPF... not like that anymore... :shakehead





> As I mentioned before, CPF has slowly coasted to a place where the flashlight hobby of using,
> 
> maintaining, designing and appreciating lights is becoming twisted and distilled to a sad state of greedy
> 
> ...



This has greatly disturbed me as well and "fixing" it is no easy task... especially when it seems to change quicker 

than I can keep up with it. But rest assured... my goal is to get back some of what you speak of. I have taken 

steps toward this... and they *will* see fruition within the year... hopefully within the next 3-6 months, if all goes 

well... too many "snags" to go into here... but progress **IS** being made!.. and hopefully, CPF can and will 

be a place for everyone... 



Thank you carrot... very constructive post... :twothumbs:


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## cabindriver (Jan 25, 2007)

Carrot,
Thanks for your well-thought-out post. There's much to digest. Just a quick comment for now, I think CPF IS a place for everyone. When I need an answer I know just where to look. I'm not caught up in any current manias over the latest lights. That may change when the new HDS's are released For those who are, that's just fine. I don't follow the current "mine is brighter than yours" threads. I've realized that most of my light use is for dim lights such as the EDC on low or the Proton on low; times when I'm camping or at home when I want to preserve my night vision. I also have bright lights for when they're warranted. 

For me, I feel that this is still largely a community. I've bought and sold lights to and with members and we have shipped them to each other before payment was received. I wouldn't do that on just any forum.

I also know people around here are willing to help. Witness the thread in headlamps about modding an Eos. I have some Coleman Sentinels(Freeplays) that I would like to mod. I know I will receive helpful anwers when I ask, perhaps even offers to do them for me. 

This is a worthwhile discussion, I hope it continues.



Sasha said:


> This has greatly disturbed me as well and "fixing" it is no easy task... especially when it seems to change quicker
> 
> than I can keep up with it. But rest assured... my goal is to get back some of what you speak of. I have taken
> 
> ...


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## lukus (Jan 25, 2007)

Carrot, you have some valid points, but I think I fall in line with Thujone (how do you pronounce that anyway?). The current cree madness along with the first real model changes in a few years for Surefire, HDS, and some others are driving the current trend in gotta-have-newest-brightest-baddest. I myself am really looking forward to what HDS has coming out. I also love the ingenuity and can-do of some of the modders and basement manufacturers. I am currently "patiently" awaiting a FFIII in titanium from Doug (Oh please!!!! don't let me have thrown my money away!)

I've always had a bit of a spot for flashlights. I had one of the first tiny Tekna lights in the early '80s and then loathed to use it because I could never find CR2 batteries, and when I did they were too expensive anyway. I used to walk around with a heavy 3 D cell light, now I carry an HDS that puts out more light, fits in my pocket, and lasts forever. That is exciting!


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## redskins38 (Jan 25, 2007)

I love this forum very much and even in the short time ive been here i have seen some changes. Carrot is right about the experienced CPFers starting to drift away. I actually thought about it the other day. Hopefully things will get better and not worse.


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## Thujone (Jan 25, 2007)

lukus said:


> Thujone (how do you pronounce that anyway?)



Thoo-jone


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## will (Jan 25, 2007)

This has been an interesting read. I collect Maglites, mostly Mini-Mags.
Why - part of that has to do with the search for that elusive color, part of it has to do with the fact that I like the way they look. To me this is a reasonable collection - the lights are not priced out of site and collecting them is an affordable hobby.

A second part of the mini-mags is the ablility to mod them, here again at a reasonable cost. I will say that my mods tend to be artsy ( I may be streching the point a bit ) in that I change the appearance of the standard light, sometimes for the better, sometimes not.

I go to CPF to see what others have done.

For a flashlight I use a lot, I have an old 2 C maglite that I put a MagLED in. I had it re anodized and made some minor changes to the switch assemebly for better heat distribution. Is it the brightest, smallest longest running - no - but it serves my purpose as a general around the house light. 


There is a group on CPF that is looking for the brightest, smallest, longest running light. I am not part of that. I have an upper limit as to what I will spend on a light. Don't get me wrong, This group does serve an important purpose, It pushes the envelope, which in turn reduces the cost of those smallest, brightest, longest running lights out there. A case in point - Last year I purchsed a sammie for one of the mini-mags I have. this year I got a terralux at 1/2 the price. The sammie is brighter, but to my eye, not by that much. 

Has CPF become to commercial ? To some extent commerce drives research - research yields better products.

Is CPF perfect - I have issues with some things that are done and some things that should be done. To be fair, not every one is going to agree on any one issue, and that's OK. There is a long running issue with one member, everyone has their own opinion as to the problem and how to fix it.


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## mchlwise (Jan 25, 2007)

Good post Carrot. Too bad the vast majority of those who should read it won't. 

I've noticed, just over the past couple of months, an awful lot of impatience, and people being "quick to anger" and "easily offended" by perceived wrongdoing when none is there. 

It's unfortunate that negative attitudes creep in, but I think for the most part those with those attitudes quickly creep back out and move on. It doesn't make it any easier for the old-timers to perservere, but that's what they need to do. Be patient, ignore it, and stick around. They'll go away soon enough. 

This is a very interesting time in "flashaholicdom". My wife and I were discussing the new emitters and lights coming out the other day. I said that flashlights now are at the point where computers were about 10-15 years ago. The first PC I bought about 15 years ago was a 286 with 512kb of RAM and a 100MB harddrive running Windows 3.0.1. I remember when the 386 came out, and then the 486! ("WOW!") Then, the PENTIUM (equivalent to a 586, but they couldn't copyright it anymore or something). Harddrives grew quickly too, as well as ram and processor speed. It was around 1999 or 2000 when a processor that ran at a GigaHertz was being released, and people went nuts. Now, I don't even know what the state-of-the-art is. I don't know what speed processors are running at anymore, and I saw an 80GB harddrive in Best Buy for well under a hundred bucks not long ago. 

My point with all that computer stuff, is that: I don't know what state of the art is anymore, because it doesn't matter. What I said to my wife is that I can go into Best Buy, buy their crappiest bottom of the line box for $300, and it would still have far more capacity and capability than we would ever use. Technology has grown far past our needs now. 

And that's what I relate to the current state of Flashaholica. We're in early technological advances, where things progress very rapidly. Luxeons are like the 386s were, and the crees are like the 486s. By the end of the year, someone will be out with a "pentium" and things will continue to advance. We are already, though, at or very near the point of diminishing returns. There are times when my JetBeam MkI is just too bright. I've ordered a Fenix L1DCE, and will most likely get a JetBeam MkIIx when they come out, because different modes are very useful, and even an increase in brightness. But I don't forsee getting a whole lot after that. When what we've got is too bright, why go brighter?

Like Sasha said, there comes a point where it's about meeting your needs, and cutting edge best and brightest may not be what you need. 

There is a "bragging rights" culture that crops up around any developing technology, and flashlights are no different. I had friends in the 90's who would brag about their harddrive size, or their ram. There are a few people who occasionally still do, but for the most part that's gone away. 

And THIS IS MY POINT with this long rambling post: 

This is a temporary condition, based on the temporary circumstances of the growing industry. People will brag about the latest and greatest, people will clamor for something better, people will get offended and badmouth people like Emillion because he missed his targeted dates by a few days, and call him a bad businessman and deceptive, when the light hasn't even been officially released to our market yet! People go nuts at this point in a technology's evolution, regardless of what technology. It's unfortunate, it's uncomfortable, it sucks, but... it's temporary. 

Hang in there.


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## Kiessling (Jan 25, 2007)

Carrot ... had you been here in the earlier days, you would be in tears now. I was lucky enough to live a glimpse of the first age of CPF back then in 2002 ... and I miss it dearly every day I come here now.

Not all is bad though ... the lights are way better and we actually have a chance to own them wich was impossible in the old days except for those with the really big pockets. So we members can be more than just spectators.

In the end though, I think what killed the spirit of old were three things:

1) money
2) agenda
3) 10 times more users with ten times more idiots. Because you only notice the bad apples.

If I had the key to switch it back how it once was ... I'd turn it without hesitation. But I haven't and yoou don't have it either, so we'll have to try to make it a site as good as we can. Like you said.

bernie


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## BentHeadTX (Jan 25, 2007)

mchlwise said:


> We are already, though, at or very near the point of diminishing returns. There are times when my JetBeam MkI is just too bright. I've ordered a Fenix L1DCE, and will most likely get a JetBeam MkIIx when they come out, because different modes are very useful, and even an increase in brightness. But I don't forsee getting a whole lot after that. When what we've got is too bright, why go brighter?
> 
> Like Sasha said, there comes a point where it's about meeting your needs, and cutting edge best and brightest may not be what you need.
> 
> There is a "bragging rights" culture that crops up around any developing technology, and flashlights are no different. I had friends in the 90's who would brag about their harddrive size, or their ram. There are a few people who occasionally still do, but for the most part that's gone away.



Very good points by all,
I arrived at CPF in July 2002 while researching LED lighting, I wanted a white LED light for my bicycle helmet. My choices were Arc, Surefire, Lambda and Elektrolumens lights but I was not satisfied. The modding section interested me the most and I picked up a BB500 sandwich from Wayne in Nov. 2002 for a minimag. 
Tried my hand at modding and built a LuxV Mag with variable output. Building another modded Mag to FINISH my bicycle frame light quest. 500 lumens is good enough for me so I will be done. The more things change, the more they stay the same. 

Modding was king back in 02-04 when it came to very bright LED lights that ran on AA cells. Most of the flashlight companies (Surefire, Arc, HDS etc) ignored those cells so I generally ignored them (and still do) Went with Peak lights for the ability to use 2AA and now 2AAA for EDC work lights. 
The huge rise of Fenix with the L series proved that for normal use, you can use AA cells. CPF started to change when the Fenix revolution arrived, the pace of technology started to really move, and move quickly. 
A year later the "Cree-volution" erupted and Fenix moved fast...a little too fast but move they did. It used to be the modders had that corner sewed up as the pace of commercial lights was glacial compared to now. The market is reaching maturity in that maximum output is not really the be all--end all. Now it is current regulated, multiple output lights that run on many different types of batteries. Features, cost then lumens... I see a trend that has happened in other high tech industries. 
If you want 100+ lumens on alkalines, NiMH or lithium cells... you can have it. As the market has matured, multiple CR123A lights are not required. Heck, most CR lights can do lithium-ion rechargables so the cost of actually using your lights has plummeted. 
To test my theory, I want to send my brother a L2D CE and see how he likes it. No $5 batteries with short runtimes, just load it up, select your light level and go. Computers, VCRs and DVD players.... they have become a commodity...except at the fringe. 
The fringe always pushes hard to find the most obscene power at all costs. The bleeding edge folks thin out as commercial products develop fast enough to really hit the law of diminishing returns. The market is changing and CPF will change along with it. 
When the average CPF'er gets their 100 lumen Cree light...will they put considerable time, effort and expense to go to 200 lumens? How many people NEED 200 lumens from a pocket light? Pocket LED lights are hitting the main stream at price points and battery choices that will make them less interesting.
Then head mounted lights will brighten up, home lighting will start to move in, automotive lighting will switch over etc. I don't see 22,000 CPF'ers going nuts over a 400 lumen single AA light when the 100 lumen model meets their particular needs. 
Still have a CD player with 18 bit D/A converters and 8 times oversampling... a 7-head industrial VCR with noise reduction encode/decode along with a copper clad EMI/RFI plates protecing mil-spec boards and polyproylene capacitors. I'll let you look at it with a 3 lumen 5mm LED single AAA light (ignore the blue/yellowish swirly beam) 
You can't go back in time and when talking about semi-conductors...why would you want to? It was fun pulling out a minimag and people would come over to see what that bright, weird colored light was. Now you can go to Wally World and pick up one stock for $25. The single AAA/AA Cree lights is the action right now but soon you can pick up one at Wally World for ... $25. 
LED lighting has jumped 500% brighter in the last 4.5 years... wonder what CPF will look like in another 4.5 years? RGB lights? LED 100 lumen wrist watch mods? Sign me up!


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## vizlor (Jan 25, 2007)

I don't have much to say which hasn't allready been said, and I'm also very "green" myself, so to speak. I don't know how you guys had it before I came, but I do no that I, in all honesty, was blewn away by how warm and friendly this forum was.

Now, while it's always healthy to ponder over ones history, it's also important to try to look at the good that is present. A personal theory of mine is that it's easy to see bad posts and comments while they are right in front of your nose, but it's nothing that you'll look back on. Things that you will remember however, are the good threads, the intelligent discussions, and the friends you make. Of course, I might be wrong. I don't know personally just how much worse (or less good?) the forums have become, so I really shouldn't speak I guess.

Personally, the worst thing I've come across here are the people complaining over certain flashlight models when compared to others, or generally complaining over other peoples desires. I don't understand where it fits in with the flashoholism to suddenly bash certain flashlights. I thought we all liked all flashlights in general, at least more or less? I could presume that people have tendency to look down upon other flashlights to justify their own purshases, but if I'm right, it's very silly.

About what you said about newbies taking more space, while veterans don't reply...

I don't know if you imply that the newbies chime in too much, or if the veterans do a lousy job at replying, but I'll give you my 50c anyway. I've honestly, as a new guy, tried to "stay out of the way" pretty much. I've always felt that you guys know so much and have strong bonds that I have been careful about what I've posted. When I have replied to a thread, I've always thought twice, and when I've answered questions, I've tried to clearify that I only have limited knowledge. I do however have a desire to answer questions to the extent that I can, because I don't want to have my time pass by here as a passive member. I want to take part of what is good, but I also want to share it and pass it on. In time, my ambition is to become more educated with flashlights and also, not a bigger part, but a better part of the community. 

While I'm still one of the new guys, I can only hope that I'm not part of the problem. I also really hope that you veteran guys stay, and that you enjoy it here as much as before. Without your knowledge, everyone would be unenlightened.


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## Mark2 (Jan 25, 2007)

I think change and problems are inevitable when the community grows and I don't think there is an easy answer. However, IMHO CPF would be much better if there were less threads overall, but more relevant/interesting ones. The same questions coming up again and again, people starting threads like "Make me want to order an xxx" or "I just ordered a xxx, tell me what I can expect while I wait" ...  It just produces such a mass of boring things to read that I gave up looking at all the new threads since my last visit as I used to do, it simply takes way too much time to do so. I think it's safe to say that the average information value of the content is significantly lower than it once was...


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## magic79 (Jan 25, 2007)

I too have been here about the same length of time as Carrot, and his post really hits home. When I first got on, I checked posts several times a day. For the last few months, it's been a couple times a week.

I would agree about the significant increase of marketing and hype, as well as the erosion of the "community" spirit...perhaps those two things are related.

Two things happened to me personally that blunted my enthusiasm. First, I ordered from a vendor who seemed respected on CPF. My order never arrived, it took and extraordinary effort to get it cancelled, then the company trashed me on CPF. Not very "community" oriented. Later, I placed an order for an expensive ($100...expensive to me anyway) light from a small manufacturer. The light was "lost in the mail" and I took it in the shorts. I'm also a ham radio operator, and in that community I know of no small manufacturer that would not have quickly replaced the lost product. I suspect the "old timer" small vendors and manufacturers here would have done the same. But, apparently, no more. It might have eroded their profit by 0.00001%. Of course, I would have placed subsequent orders, so it is false economics.

Bottom line: I don't feel as "safe" as when I first registered. I haven't bought a new light in 5-6 months...not because I don't want one, but because I only trust a small handful of sellers here now. Too bad.

That, plus like Shasta and through the help of folks here, I found the "perfect" EDC light last spring and indeed it's in my pocket every day! I don't need to buy the latest for an extra 3.5 lumens or 45 seconds longer run time. When a more substantial quanta is reached, I'll upgrade!

Interesting and provocative thread, Carrot. I'm glad you started it.


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## luigi (Jan 25, 2007)

I'm very new here so I can't tell about changes as much as others do.
I know I like flashlights and I know I have met very nice people here.
The only thing I can do is to keep enjoying and respecting everybody new or old here as a fellow CPFer.

I'm very thankful for the many posters that share their knowledge and help others, It feels nice when you see good people helping other good people without asking anything back.

Maybe that is a very naive approach but if the wise posters keep sharing and teaching I'm sure many of us will be happy to listen and learn and then share with others. I'm sure I will.

Luigi


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## jch79 (Jan 25, 2007)

Great post Carrot... I share your sentiments. In my short time here, I've noticed that things have started to shift toward a place I don't feel as anxious to be a part of - but maybe I'm just becoming more aware of it as I become more involved at CPF. :shrug:

The real sad part to me is the disappearing CPF veterans... I've even seen it in my short time here. I'm really glad that guys like Bernie, greenLED, and cy (to name only a few) are still around to give advice that only someone who's been around the flashaholic block more than a couple times can give. I don't know if there's a "Cheers to our CPF Elders" thread started, but it's most certainly due!

To a brighter tomorrow,
john


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## 270winchester (Jan 25, 2007)

thread types that grind my gears:

"help, I'm addicted, pay attention to me"

"new comer, what can I get for 10 bucks?"

"noob, looking for attention"

"Hello thanks I'm _____ from ______ to introduce new line of cheap tactical lights thanks low low low prices lots of pics"

"Arc/SF/HDS sucks cuz they cost more than my target light"

and so on.


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## TheMechanic (Jan 25, 2007)

I've been hanging around since 2002, took a break for a couple of years, and came back about a month ago. I don't post much, because I'm just a lowly user - I don't build lights or modify them (other than a drop-in - can't solder worth a darn.) I'm not into flashlights per se, but am interested in them because I need them for various activities in which I engage, and wish to have the best/most appropriate tool for those tasks.

I haven't noticed an increase in the rudeness level, though I don't poke around the Cafe much either.

What I have seen is that the level of technical discussion has been elevated, primarily because of the rise of LEDs and rechargeable batteries. Some of the engineers here are talking about things that I don't understand, but that's fine - sooner or later someone will explain it all to me.

One thing that stuck in my mind while reading this thread is that in 2002 there were a larger number of collectors - people who acquired old(er) flashlights and shared their most recent additions with the forumites. That seems to have gone away, save for the recent thread on the MiniMag collection. (I don't even like MMs, but I enjoyed the thread.)

Oh, and there seem to be fewer pictures of Sasha posted. That's a shame. 

Overall, I can't say CPF is any better or any worse - it is just different.

-=[ Grant ]=-


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## 65535 (Jan 25, 2007)

carrot not that I have read your entire post or others entire post, But currently I am trying to stay form and function over biggest baddest light to own, Im not terribly able to throw cash to everyone that will take it, I am disapointed as well with people saying O'h that light sucks get this $1000 POS light its better. I wish some people could just stay out unless they have problems that others have had, rather than say O I ran mine over and it just doesn't seem to be the same.


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## carrot (Jan 25, 2007)

I do not think that early adopters are bad. Quite the opposite. Without early adopters who are willing to be "beta testers" we are suddenly able to get in our hands cutting edge lighting technology. That's great. I have a Cree light. It's a real stunner. But what I am trying to get at is that it saddens me to see that all we see is hype and not much else. Hype and early adopters have their place.

Greener newbies than I such as vizlor, mchlwise, redskins38 and jch79 (to name a few) give me hope in CPF, as they prove to me that there are some who "get it," and see more to our hobby than just owning the latest and greatest, but as the sharing of knowledge and a friendly community where we can talk about our little obsessions. I too am thankful for having CPF as a place where we can share knowledge, but I worry that we are diluting that knowledge with frivolous overhype and withe the loss of the "community feeling" we lose older knowledge.

Rethinking what I said I do think I was maybe too negative. But I also feel that if I were any less negative than that, it might seem as if I felt things were all "well and good" but with a few "minor" complaints, which is not the case. CPF does have some great technical discussions going on, with the technical discussions and comparisons between LEDs, the safety of primaries, and high-end hotwire mods, but it is seeming to me that these are becoming fewer and fewer as people become more interested in off-the-shelf technology and not what goes into it.

I expected to take some flak with my post and instead when I woke up I was greeted with many posts describing similar observations, which only serves to compound what I see as a terrible shame. I hope for the well-being of CPF as it is one of my favorite places to be on the net, but as of late I have found myself needing to visit other sites as the sense of community that brought me here feels like it is starting to fade. For instance, must we really troll each other with regards to recommendations?


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## 22hornet (Jan 25, 2007)

Also take into account that you begin to see a forum differently over the years. When you are new you read everything with great interest as almost any thread contains new data for you. When new, you also post all kinds of questions which seem important to you at that moment but may seem annoying to the more experienced. 
Gradually, when you become more and more acquainted with the subject, less posts will be interesting as the subjects will be too obvious to you and you will be annoyed by reading all these newcomers' questions, questions you once asked yourself, if you are honest.

I've been a gun collector since 1979 and I well remember the first copy I bought of "the American Handgunner" nov/dec 1979. I still have it and I knew (and still know) every article and every advertisement in it. Back then, I read it over and over again. All was so exciting and new. A new world opened up before my eyes. Over the years, these magazines became more and more boring and due to a great part to the fact that I now know most of the things already and have read hundreds of articles on the merits of the .45ACP. (Besides I prefer a "lousy" .32ACP)

This phenomenon may be an explanation to some of the "oldtimers" bad feeling.

It remains a fact though that few people actually seem to have fun with their flashlights here and put them into use. (I use them at night in the shower  and to wander around in funny dark places. I truly enjoy my "dim" ARC AA and AAA).

At this moment I am planning a holiday to Africa in April and am really putting great effort in the right "flashlight planning".

I really really really miss threads were people tell about their flashlight adventures. How dark alleys are lit up, how nights are turned into day, how people are saved by their trusty light-emitting companion and things like that. Such threads exist, but are few and far between among the "multiple stages 500 lumen cree must have lights" posts.

It seems weird that people seem to see flashlights as something to show off with. They are to be tools or coveted/loved gadgets or both. As such there is absolutely nothing wrong with showing a nice collection, result of years of careful and loving collecting but seeing a flashlight as a "vanitas" or status symbol goes too far and is - at best - pityful. Face it: a 500 dollar flashlight does not make any statement at all next to someone who is showing his Corvette, a Holland&Holland shotgun or a platinum Patek Philippe...

Kind regards and keep shining,
Joris


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## Phaserburn (Jan 25, 2007)

I am going on my 4th year here at CPF. I hear the point of commercialism and the occasional rude noob all too clearly. But, before throwing the baby out with the bathwater, I want to state a few opinions:

There is still an incredible wealth of knowledge here.
There are still a large number of friendly, responsive folks here that make CPF a very different kind of forum.
The commercial aspect is partially of our own doing; we wanted it loud and strong for years in all our threads: responsive manufacturers and new lights. Well we got 'em. Supply and demand.
The senior members do get tired of the thread types already mentioned; I do. But, that's because they are "in the way" of what we come to CPF for. That's understandeable. Patience, all. Ever go back and look at the topics of the first threads you posted? Try it, it's fun.
Some members have drifted away at the current "state" of CPF. I think that as avid hobbyists - that is what we are, ladies and gentlemen - we often forget simple decorums of human interactions, and take ourselves and our opinions way too seriously.

Let's also be fair - threads from senior members (who should know better) arguing strongly about their points of view on such mundane matters like what to call a lens, or bemoaning the invention of the reverse clickie, are just as annoying as a noob "gimmee the best light" threads. 

The bottom line is, it doesn't matter how long you've been here, what your modding ability is, how many lights you've got, how many posts you've made, or how simple/complex your questions and comments are. What matters is how pleasant and courteous you are to each other - it's about RESPECT, folks. Just like it is in any other human gathering anywhere you've ever been. Some forget that from time to time, I think. It's easier to overlook while chatting on the net than it is in person.


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## WAVE_PARTICLE (Jan 25, 2007)

CPF is experiencing a shift right now....
It's growing. From a utilitarian standpoint, I can understand where you are coming from, Carrot. But not everyone is utilitarian.

Flashaholics come in all forms. Many are enthusiasts who enjoy the latest and greatest. They get pleasure out of owning the best there is. There is nothing wrong with that. Like Sasha alluded to, everyone have their own needs and these enthusiasts' needs should not be discounted. Just like the needs of the utilitarian who searches for a reliable light that just suits their uses should not be discounted.

I, for one, really do appreciate a well designed and constructed light. The advancement of the portable illumination industry requires enthusiasts. Every modder is an enthusiast.....because what is available is not good enough for their needs and they need to advance the industry themselves in their own special way. At the same time though, capitalism also fuels the industry's growth, and I feel that it is this part of it that you feel uncomfortable with. I don't mind it so much because it helps keep the development going.

We are at a crossroads and not without growing pains. My lights are worth less right now, dollar-wise, but not value-wise. I treasure all my lights, even the ones that aren't the latest and greatest. But what I treasure the most is the fact that I can share my collection and my love of lights with all of you people and am ever thankful that we have CPF as a place we can do this.

WP


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## Brighteyez (Jan 25, 2007)

I doubt that you're alone in your thoughts and no doubt there are many that share them. If it's of any consolation though, the same thing has gone on in forums in other subject areas as well. And the opportunistic (and often amatuerish) commercial postings that *270Winchester* refer to also continue to spread as more people attempt to use the web as a sales platform. In any case, it's not just here, things are changing a bit everywhere. 

And if you want to see trash, you should see some of the forums that are hosted by manufacturers 



carrot said:


> I expected to take some flak with my post and instead when I woke up I was greeted with many posts describing similar observations, which only serves to compound what I see as a terrible shame.


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## McGizmo (Jan 25, 2007)

Information overload in a time of technology evolution and revolution. The small town became a big city and the sense of community has changed to fit in with the growth and alienation which comes about when the close knit fabric is stretched to fit over the multitude. Most of us have a finite number of times we are willing to repeat a comment or thought. If this is not shared and pased on, it gets lost. Even the content of this thread here has been brought up before. 

CPF is the sum and then some, of the active members at the time. Its quality is up to those willing to take the time to contribute and the quality of the content of contribution and not from those willing to only take. :shrug:


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## carrot (Jan 25, 2007)

22hornet, I understand that part of my frustration with CPF is the commonly asked questions, but I still do take part in answering what I can, no matter how noob-ish, unless someone else has done a satisfactory job of answering. But I also feel a bit angry when people start jumping in, with no regard for the poster's original requirements and start recommending the current "hot" light of the week. And then more come in with opinions about the "hot" light, disregarding the OP's post, and often not even taking time to explain to a newcomer what they know. It is this sheeplike behavior that gets me ruffled up.

As for stories, (what feels like a long time ago), I set out to collect that feeling of joy when you turn on your flashlight and you become the hero or the star of the show. They are in a continually updated thread, of varying quality, maintained by myself, and linked in my signature as "Flashlight Story Collection." It saddens me to see that posts such as those I collect are being made with less and less frequency, and it goes to demonstrate that the demographics of CPF may be changing to those who do not really use, or care so much about using their lights. Just so you know, I do have about 20 or so new stories queued up to list next time I update.



22hornet said:


> Also take into account that you begin to see a forum differently over the years. When you are new you read everything with great interest as almost any thread contains new data for you. When new, you also post all kinds of questions which seem important to you at that moment but may seem annoying to the more experienced.
> Gradually, when you become more and more acquainted with the subject, less posts will be interesting as the subjects will be too obvious to you and you will be annoyed by reading all these newcomers' questions, questions you once asked yourself, if you are honest.
> 
> ... [shortened]
> ...



EDIT: A lot of people have made salient points here that ring true and I would be mistaken if I thought I could address all of these fairly and thoughtfully, but I would like to say I am glad to see people who care as much about CPF as I do who see and emphasize the more positive aspects. I do feel like CPF is getting growing pains, and I do agree that there are many good things still to be had on CPF, only that they are with less frequency than before and it takes more dedication to find those. I am thankful for those people who "get it," and I hope that few will give up on CPF.


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## MicroE (Jan 25, 2007)

McGizmo said:


> .....Even the content of this thread here has been brought up before....



Amen, brother!
Every generation thinks that they are the first to see a problem. 
When I went back to grad school (20 years after college) I noticed that the school newspaper was complaining about the same issues that it had covered 20 years earlier: 
Apathy. 
Commercialism. 
Loss of community. 
Degrading values.

And the world turns.


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## 22hornet (Jan 25, 2007)

carrot said:


> As for stories, (what feels like a long time ago), I set out to collect that feeling of joy when you turn on your flashlight and you become the hero or the star of the show. They are in a continually updated thread, of varying quality, maintained by myself, and linked in my signature as "Flashlight Story Collection." It saddens me to see that posts such as those I collect are being made with less and less frequency, and it goes to demonstrate that the demographics of CPF may be changing to those who do not really use, or care so much about using their lights. Just so you know, I do have about 20 or so new stories queued up to list next time I update.



Thanks, Carrot,
When I first came to know this forum, it was your link to these stories (and to the ARC stories) that fueled my enthusiasm. Finding out that adult people still can have such joy with their toys  It was really good fun reading these stories and made me look forward to my own personal flashlight adventures. Visiting the dark continent will really be a dream come true. (still not sure, but I think I will be packing my P1 / E1 / ARC AA and ARC AAA green led).

Kind regards and keep enjoying your hobby,
Joris


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## carrot (Jan 25, 2007)

I do not think I am the first to see the problem. Far from it. My post stemmed from what others have mentioned, whether in passing or directly, and having not seen a thread addressing the issue thoroughly during the year I have been here, I felt I needed to bring it up for the current generation. And also to vent a little. My hope is that I provoke some thought in how we handle ourselves here.

But I understand that history repeats itself over and over, and if anything it more deeply emphasizes the importance we must place on history and looking to the past for guidance through the future.


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## cdosrun (Jan 25, 2007)

Carrot,

I was going to write a really long reply, but I really don't think it is necessary. I know I am new here as a member, but I have been a lurker for some time.

In fact, I have just deleted everything I was going to say again. I agree with you, it is all about facts and figures, and less about use. Jon Sidney posted something similar 'where have all the users gone?' (or something like that). I am as guilty as the worst offenders, I have a small number of torches now and they aren't doing much more than letting me check the car over at night before driving off.

I think it will die off once the hype about increased efficiency has declined again, it is the same with computer parts (as I'm sure has been mentioned already), once the parts are sufficient for most peoples' needs, the talk turns to more to use than upgrading.

Sorry for the ramblings, but I think you might be able to glean my meaning. I am also not that old (25), so I don't think it is an age thing. Just life at the moment, too much pressure, and too many choices!

Andrew


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## BVH (Jan 25, 2007)

I get just as much enjoyment out of visiting CPF now as when I joined in the latter part of 04. I see some of the changes that are noted here, some good, some not so good. The negative changes have not diminished my enjoyment at all. I recognize that the good old days are usually looked back at fondly by most of us but we should also look for the good in todays happenings. Its still there in the same quantities that is was in the old days. Its just different and sometimes you just have to identify it.

Flashlights are my favorite hobby. I am one who uses his lights somewhat seldom. I wish I could find more ways to use them. But.... I get just as much thrill and enjoyment out of them - just by having them, as others do by having and using them more than I do. Each person enjoys his or her hobbies in their own way.

I LOVE this place!


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## TIP AND RING (Jan 25, 2007)

I find CPF to be THE coolest forum ever. It is fascinating to read. I have met some of the most amazing, helpful folks here. That being said, I am still a noob here. Part of my fascination with this forum is not spending too much time here.I could see major burn out if I spent too much time here. 

Mark Twain wrote: "Familiarity breeds contempt. How accurate that is. The reason we hold truth in such respect is because we have so little opportunity to get familiar with it."

I have seen a few flashlight bullys here and witnessed a few unneeded arguments. Friendships last longer when people respect each others rights to privacy, opinion,and self determination.

I hope everyone takes a opportunity to step away for a while and come back to visit a forum like no other. Thanks to everyone that has shared their time ,energy and experience with me.


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## rcashel11 (Jan 25, 2007)

Carrot,

Thank you for sharing your opinions. I've been mulling over some issues with CPFfor some time, too. 

As time has passed, I have seen more and more posts by those who trash lights and manufacturers based on a purely subjective _and_ personal criterion, price, without regard to the merits of the products. There are those who vehemently argue that a light is worth buying only if it can put out a certain number of lumens. The level of immaturity and disrespect has grown with the increase in the number of members. I think Bernie put it best with his statement: "10 times more users with ten times more idiots." Most disturbing, to me at least, is the emergence of a level of hubris, especially among the newer members, in which the members consider themselves so influential and important that a company will only be successful if its products conform to their demands and expectations. 

Before I digress too far from your main point, I will only say that flashlights is still like every thing else - be it cars, electronics, etc. People often feel the need to get the "hottest" stuff and then brag about it. I agree that there are far too many of such unneeded posts and threads, but I hesitate to say that it is indicative of a prevailing trend towards materialism here on CPF. Personally, I think if people would just ignore the braggarts then there would be less motivation to start the boastful threads.

Despite the negatives, I still think that CPF is a wonderful community where knowledge is incredibly abundant and is continually passed down through the "generations." I am grateful for the contributions of those veterans who have stayed and have continued to share their insights and experiences. And, I also appreciate the thoughtful and entertaining posts by the newer members. Sometimes I remind myself that we CPFers share a common interest and that we serve as a bulwark against a different class of sheep - the complacent and the unprepared - who don't understand our hobby and ridicule us for it.


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## GarageBoy (Jan 25, 2007)

All forums go through the same deal. NoPistons.com is dead and fewer and fewer RX7 fans could live with their cars through troubles. It'll be fine here as long as we step back once in a while and not get too caught up in things. (flashlight drama ::shakes head)


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## tvodrd (Jan 26, 2007)

:thumbsup: carrot! It's a completely different place from four years ago when Home made/Modified was my first destination when logging-on. I rarely post there anymore! CPF has changed and we can adapt or leave. I'm not leaving, but don't expect a lot of posts!!

Larry


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## milkyspit (Jan 26, 2007)

Phaserburn said:


> I am going on my 4th year here at CPF. I hear the point of commercialism and the occasional rude noob all too clearly. But, before throwing the baby out with the bathwater, I want to state a few opinions:
> 
> There is still an incredible wealth of knowledge here.
> There are still a large number of friendly, responsive folks here that make CPF a very different kind of forum.
> ...




Couldn't agree more. As usual, Phaser, fantastic insight with IMHO a good, objective look from both sides of the issue.

Not sure I can add much... other than this: CPF being a community of sorts, people come and people go over time, and quite a few of the latter will be missed... it's a cycle of sorts, and not all that different from life in the larger (non-virtual) world. People's priorities change, too... becoming moms and dads, prioritizing other aspects of one's life...

Nothing wrong with that, nor with the thought that CPF is changing, just as all things are always changing. My personal feeling is that we maybe feel this change more these days because there are fewer and fewer "anchors" in our lives to hold onto. And CPF itself has grown to the point that no single person can keep tabs on all of it, so we tend to compartmentalize, to congregate in this or that area and lose sight of the entirety of the place. There's just more of everything and that's not always a good thing. As things are gained, some are inevitably lost.

Carrot's right though, there will unfortunately always be those who seek personal gain at the expense of all else... the shills... the con artists... the parasites... the good people of this and any community must ALWAYS reject that sort of thing. Rest assured, CPF is still out there for you with its rolling hills and winding trails... only it's bigger now, and many new families have moved into town... it's still there though. CPF is what you make it.

With apologies if the late hour and general fatigue made the above either really mushy or just totally incoherent.


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## AndyTiedye (Jan 26, 2007)

I'm a considerably newer newbie than Carrot, so I have not been around to
see what CPF was like a year ago.

I wandered in here looking for a better bike light 
-- just as the Cree upheaval was starting. 

A Luxeon LED does not grow dim in the presence of an XR-E or a P4,
it only seems that way.

I bought some nice new lights with the new LEDs,
made by some of the master craftsmen of CPF.
I have been very impressed with them.

We all use our lights. Really we do. Until we put them on B/S/T
where every other light is a "safe queen". Does anyone really keep
their lights in a _safe_? 

Actually, everything I have bought through CPF has been as-advertised so far.
(But I haven't bought any of the "safe queens"). Please keep it up!

Shelf queens? Well, some of those lights do look pretty regal on the shelf,
but they can be pressed into service at any time, and frequently are.
A light that is on display _with its glowing tritiums_ is a lot more useful
when the power goes out than a light in a closet or a drawer. That is also
where I reach for a light if I'm just trying to see into a dark corner a bit better.

Functionality is enhanced by making the light attractive enough so that it
can _be_ part of the decor, and thereby be where you need it.
Peu's Pineapples are especially nice for this.

Do I have to have the newest and brightest? Might as well, because what I
had before really wasn't very good. Or, in the case of my existing bike lights,
it's bright enough, but TOOO heavy, and HID does not scale DOWN.

I am also going to try a bunch of LED track lighting.

The scope of the change that we are seeing goes far beyond flashlights.
The way we light up our lives is about to change.

CPF is growing, fast. This is in part because it is at the crest of a very large wave.


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## rscanady (Jan 26, 2007)

I wanted just to say thanks for the interesting ready......

Bob Dylan said it best "Cuz the times, they are , a changin..."

Sincerely,

Ryan


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## dano (Jan 26, 2007)

Every hobby goes through this. Some of my personal examples:

--Pocket knives. I'm a big collector and user of pocket knives. Ever since the Steel Wars began, the hobby has imploded with many, many users espousing the current super-duper steel, and degrading and insulting those who think otherwise. It's a pain to read through the two main knife boards, as most of the threads involve a super steel debate, usually with no real or important info, other than the poor author's dilemma that his knife, no matter how much he likes it, doesn't have the Steel-Of-The-Day. I know what works and what doesn't, which makes the hobby that much simpler and more enjoyable for me.

--I saw, first hand, the implosion of the R/C Car world. Technology outran the driver, and we were scrambling to keep up, with some buying a new kit every week in order to remain competitive. I remember when the RC10 was king, until Losi came out with the JRX-2. I remember the ROAR motor wars, where the motors were tweaked so much that they had a service life of 4 races. I was good enough to almost qualify for the IFMAR Worlds, but the hobby became too much. Now, I cruise my Mini-T around and have just as much fun.

--Lights...I think the first light I bought on my own (not including Radio Shack's free flashlight during Xmas time) was a Ray-O-Vac Workhorse. I also remember finding a halogen bulb for it at Radio Shack, and thinking how bad-arse it was. There was no organized info. database like CPF, so my light hobby lingered around simple store bought lights, Mags and the high-tech Tekna light. I then found a SF 6P, and forged my way into high end lights. I was invited to CPF by The Founder in 2000, and discovered a lot of lights; my hobby EXPLODED, and I even fell into the Latest And Greatest Disease for a time. I still have that original 6P, and find that this hobby is much more fun knowing that that little battered and bruised and old 6P still does what I want it to do: light stuff up. I do find the technology fascinating, but I don't rush out and buy everything that comes around; I'm not interested in a lumen race.

Hobby's are what you make of them, and not what other's influence makes you do. Jumping on every bandwagon will keep you interested for a while, but will ultimately end in frustration and burn out. You will come full circle and embrace the enjoyment of what started it all in the first place, that one simple piece that ignited the interest.


--dan


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## modamag (Jan 26, 2007)

Thank you carrot & all posters for your thought. I read all the post it it pretty much got to the heart of what I'm feeling.

1.
The community have grown so much that there is not so much a "personal" aspect to it anymore. It's like the difference between car pooling and taking the subway. When you car-(van)-pool you try to understand the individual sitting next to you because you'll probably see them again. When I first join I made a concious attempt to know every member. Now it's impossible with 22,000+ members.

2.
As for the shift in CPF population. If you go to the main page and look at the "# viewing", it's quite disturbing to see that the number viewing the BST/GB/Dealers is far greater than those of the manufacturer.

I remember when I joined most of the population either hang out in the *Manufacturer* (especially Arc & Sandwich Shoppe) or the *Homemade and Modified lights* (I still do). Back in the days the *General Flashlight* or *LED* section used to talked about the technology and how we can overdrive it. I used to get my fix on the information overload. My wife would complain why are you still reading in bed. Nowadays, its where the discussion have became where can you get this light cheap & the haha why my light is brighter than yours type 

Back then post like THIS would have been notice and responded to almost immediately. Now it sit there for a day. Out of 22K member none of us know the answer? Or have we answered it for the 100th time and can't spare a minute for the 101st? :shrug: If no ones answer by the time I get to work I will.

3.
Collecting/HORDING is human nature. In the beginning we will collect the basic necessity, when those need have been satisfied, it then turns to the luxury. Every person is different and so is their collection (may it be flashlight or not).

Can most of us go out and buy a bunch of Ti lights and brag, sure. Might have to sacrifice lunch with the gang for couple months to muster up the funds, but doable. Then again who are you bragging to, I hope not your friends & coworkers, cause they will think you're nuts collecting (& spending so much) flashlight.

Mentioning of collecting, I can't even recall when was the last purchase that I made a purchase that was worthy to go into my collection. Maybe my senses have gotten dull. The hording factor will play a major roll for the first year or so in any hobby but it will die down and get boring, if you don't have anything substantial to back up that hobby you'll just move on to your next acquisition fix.



Gosh it's 2:30 I better get to bed, there's a CPF get together tomorrow, and those haven't changed, thank goodness. Still love the people, no matter how crazy they are.


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## milkyspit (Jan 26, 2007)

Random thoughts...

*[size=+1]Optimization.[/size]* With thanks to my old buddy Phaserburn, who long ago taught me his way of managing his own photonic cravings. Each light he buys serves a "mission," whether it's the car glovebox light, the walk the dog light, the bump in the night light, the illuminate the bedroom, minimally, so the wife can sleep light... point is, no meaningless lights. Then he seeks out the best light for each particular mission... and as newer lights come along he reads up, possibly auditions them... if the new light serves a mission better than the old one, he sells the old one, if not he sells the new one. This helps him keep his head against the tide of materialism and "I want that!" impulses. Gotta say, I believe in the mission, Phaserburn style.


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## milkyspit (Jan 26, 2007)

BTW, seems to me that what Carrot started with concerns about the evolution of CPF, turns out to teach us a few things about LIFE. Thanks Carrot! This is rapidly becoming a seminal thread...
:goodjob:


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## milkyspit (Jan 26, 2007)

At the risk of oversaturating folks, and with apologies on the only-partially-on-topic nature... Carrot (and all!), I would invite you to come out to NJ and attend PhotonFest 8 (PF8) to be held at my house on April 14th. If past events serve as a guide, may I humbly suggest that you'll find some of that old-school community, cameraderie, and passion you've been looking for alive and well at the event. All are welcome! PM me if you want to come, I'll get you some directions.


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## C4LED (Jan 26, 2007)

BentHeadTX said:


> Modding was king back in 02-04 when it came to very bright LED lights that ran on AA cells. Most of the flashlight companies (Surefire, Arc, HDS etc) ignored those cells so I generally ignored them (and still do) Went with Peak lights for the ability to use 2AA and now 2AAA for EDC work lights.
> The huge rise of Fenix with the L series proved that for normal use, you can use AA cells. CPF started to change when the Fenix revolution arrived, the pace of technology started to really move, and move quickly.
> A year later the "Cree-volution" erupted and Fenix moved fast...a little too fast but move they did. It used to be the modders had that corner sewed up as the pace of commercial lights was glacial compared to now. The market is reaching maturity in that maximum output is not really the be all--end all. Now it is current regulated, multiple output lights that run on many different types of batteries. Features, cost then lumens... I see a trend that has happened in other high tech industries.
> If you want 100+ lumens on alkalines, NiMH or lithium cells... you can have it. As the market has matured, multiple CR123A lights are not required. Heck, most CR lights can do lithium-ion rechargables so the cost of actually using your lights has plummeted.
> The fringe always pushes hard to find the most obscene power at all costs. The bleeding edge folks thin out as commercial products develop fast enough to really hit the law of diminishing returns. The market is changing and CPF will change along with it.



I think BentHeadTX has a very good point. As the tech improvements in the market have happened, there are less opportunities to mod. Things became more commercial and less fun. That seems to be the biggest change. However, things are still interesting in terms of the advances going on and the technology becoming more affordable.


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## Pax et Lux (Jan 26, 2007)

I've only been here throughout 2006. . . lurking for the first half of the year before I joined and started posting.

I'm not qualified to go on at length, but I've noticed a few trends - I've probably only noticed things that irritate me, and forgetting about the reasons I come here, so this is likely skewed:
+ People stating opinion as fact 
+ People writing about things beyond their experience (seems to be worse when anything 'tactical' or firearms-related comes up and the armchair commandoes come out to tell us how tough they are)
+ People that think the point of coming here is about having the greatest number of lights possible, regardless of quality
+ Political points
+ People baiting others to get a thread they don't like closed
+ An obsession with importing China-made lights - because _more is better_, obviously!

I think a lot of the above relates to an influx of newer members - and I've been guilty of most of the above. 

I'm not attacking the moderators, who have more patience than me, but I would rather talk about solutions than problems, so I'd suggest:

I think more China-import-site-of-the-moment threads should automatically be moved from the general forums. I'd suggest making the Manufacturer's Forum home for this stuff.

I've seen ra-ra threads started on Electro Lumens (correctly) moved to that particular forum, but those stating opinions on other lights not being moved to reviews.

And maybe the general discussion-type threads should be moved over here to the Cafe - rather than tolerated for a while then closed.


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## AndyTiedye (Jan 26, 2007)

dano said:


> Every hobby goes through this. Some of my personal examples:
> 
> --Pocket knives. I'm a big collector and user of pocket knives. Ever since the Steel Wars began, the hobby has imploded with many, many users espousing the current super-duper steel, and degrading and insulting those who think otherwise. It's a pain to read through the two main knife boards, as most of the threads involve a super steel debate, usually with no real or important info, other than the poor author's dilemma that his knife, no matter how much he likes it, doesn't have the Steel-Of-The-Day.



A good reason to only collect Swiss Army knives.
No steel wars. And you can open a :buddies: with it.
And some of them have built-in flashlights.
And you don't have to worry about the rust monster.





All those steel-a-holics live in fear of the rust monster, unless they live in the desert.


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## js (Jan 26, 2007)

Carrot,

It all boils down to respect, as Phaserburn pointed out so well in his post above.

So, for starters, as Sasha mentioned, you should respect those who like to own shelf queens, who have flashlights that don't get used much, but are still much loved and treasured. It's their money! If people want a mint collection of mini-mags, or of Arc LS's or of every version and type of Arc AAA, so be it.

And if people want to keep trading up to get the latest and greatest, and are not happy unless they have the absolute cutting edge light (and probably not even then! LOL!) more power to them.

I think what gets to you is not so much the attitudes in and of themselves, but the *attitudes*, if you know what I mean; as in "Wow! Dude. That guy has a serius 'tude."

As an incan guy, I have had a bellyfull of threads like "Why don't incans just die already? They suck." I mean, it's fine if someone strongly prefers LED light, but it's not so fine if that turns into attacking those who don't share that preference to that degree.

All of that said, I also lean somewhat towards the practical side of light ownership. Bill Waites has called me the ascetic of flashaholics. LOL! I'm not. Anyone who owns an M6 can't really be called a flashlight ascetic. But still, I only own a handful of lights: 2 Arc AAA's, Arc LSH-S, SF A2, SF L2, SF M6, SF E2e, and a TL. (Also, Ginseng gave me a Polaris, which was very cool of him!--but I didn't buy it). I don't even have an M6-R pack to call my own. Nor do I have a modded TL. It's fairly stock: premium pack, Gen4 LA, and scratch resistant poly lens from FLL.com. I used to own a 100 watt. 2200+ lumen, USL (2D Mag hotwire mod), but decided I wouldn't use it and that too many people had been waiting for too long to get their own USL's. So I gave that away, as well as building another 15 more for people. But I digress. . .

Point is, I can relate to what you are saying. My Arc LSH is one of my favorite lights! It's nowhere near as bright as some of the new lights, but it's got character, and I love it. Neither my eyesight nor its output have changed in the last three years. It's still just as good and useful as it ever was. The latest and greatest cutting edge LED light may make it look pathetic _by comparison_, but that really doesn't bother me in the least. And really, how much light do most people really *need*. I know it isn't about "need", but still, I have actually gone backwards in the last year when it comes to lumens output. For me, less is more--both because of the extra runtime, and also because with less light, your pupils can stay opened more, and remain more dark adapated, making the light that you do have more effective. I've talked about this many times in various places--often against someone attacking lower output lights. In one case, the person was even going so far as to say that the SF M6 HOLA was "low to medium" output, or something like that. Can you imagine?

But, let me get down to the meat of your post. CPF has changed you say.

I agree. It has changed. There are a lot more "newbies"--people who are green and new to the hobby. And the boards are friggin' clogged up with exactly the type of threads you describe. I don't know how many times I have seen a thread asking what the lamp life of a P60 is. I stopped answering most of these kind of threads. I figure others can answer, and they aren't that momentus anyway, so even if the answer is wrong, it's no big deal. But, ultimately, the newbies who clog the boards with these kinds of threads are being disrespectful. They may not mean to be; they may just be doing what is accepted practice on other boards; but posting a thread like that is a detriment to CPF. I for one have always been VERY careful when posting threads, and even when making posts. If you do a search of threads started by "js", you will see what I mean. I don't think I ever posted a question thread without making a concerted effort to find the answer.

Anyway, back to "old-timers" not posting and all: I, and many other "veterans" still do drop in on important threads. And I think you will find that most of the "veterans" haven't left; they are still around, still lurking, still checking in, and still posting from time to time.

However, for myself, part of my lessened activity here does in fact stem from past occasions of disrespect. For a long, long time my sigline said only "-Jim Sexton". But about a year ago, I decided that there were so many new members on the board that I would change my sigline into a resume of accomplishments and thread links. I didn't do this lightly! I have never liked to self-promote, and I have never ever had a list of "bragging" lights in my profile or sigline. But it just seemed that the changing atmosphere of CPF required the change in my sigline.

And, actually, the change came soon after a couple nasty interactions with a new CPFer, who asked me a question in one thread, then proceeded to attack me for giving an answer and argue with me about it and attack my character and motivations and knoweldge. I let that slide. But then it happened again! He was attacking me over the frigging incan lamp re-rating formulas! And before that, over the 65 percent transmission efficiency of bare lamp lumens to torch lumens. I was really angry about the whole thing for a while, and those two events did mark a turning point for me. Since that time I have spent a lot less time answering routine questions. I know that I shouldn't have let a few "bad apple" experiences do that to me, but, well, that's what happened. At a certain point, you have to attend to your own well being and mental health!

Is CPF worse? In some ways, yes it is. But I think it will get better. I think a lot of the newbies will mature into very knowledgeable and helpful veterans, and I think that a lot of newbies will disappear, and so in the future, we can expect the ratio of idoits to non-idiots to get better.

Hang in there! And remember, let the collectors and gadget-guys (and gals) have their fun, too! If the latest and greatest floats their boats, no problem, right? Feel free to knock any one of my threads to the top. I'm especially interested in more action in my Philosophical musings: ch. 3 thread. Bill Waites owes me a post there, that's for sure. (Bill, are you reading this? Bill?)


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## h_nu (Jan 26, 2007)

I suspect there are a few old timers who rarely post but frequently check in to see if there is anything new. They pop in with answers when the topics and questions interest them. It's a lot like the lurkers who frequent the forums for a year or more before their first post.

It's not just CPF changing though. I got on the Internet in early '94. There was a lot less advertising, a lot more helpful advice, and people freely gave out their real email addresses if you wanted to discuss things in more depth.

For what it's worth, there are still a surprising number of regulars whose posts automatically get my attention because of the value I place on their opinions and knowledge.


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## TigerhawkT3 (Jan 27, 2007)

Unlike the Lorax, I speak for the n00bs.

If you want to ignore the n00bs, go ahead. You're not being forced to answer the same question a hundred times. The masters can converse with each other, and occasionally interact with a near-master. The near-masters can converse with each other, and occasionally interact with one slightly less experienced, and so on. In this way, information can trickle down from the ivory towers and spread among the n00bs, slowly educating those n00bs and bringing them closer to veteran status.

Of course, that's not the "spirit" of CPF. The "spirit" of CPF is supposed to be one of equality and generosity. The n00bs are relying on the more experienced members to help them. One would hope that they'd try to help themselves, as well, by reading up and looking for outside resources (FR et al.).

Ten times as many members may mean ten times as many idiots, but it also means ten times as many bold innovators, ten times as many generous donators, etc. Do you see the glass as half empty or half full? (If the glass has root beer in it, then it's completely empty. Yum.)

Why do you think there are so many new members, wanting to learn, buy, sell, discuss, argue, and so on? They like flashlights! Do you like flashlights, or the old times at CPF?

How is it a problem that so many new CPFers only want the latest and greatest, slavering for the next XR-E or P4 light? Of course they want the brightest lights; they're CPFers! Older lights don't get any worse with the introduction of new offerings, but they don't get any better, either. How were Luxeons received when they had just come out? Did you maintain that you don't need more brightness or efficiency because your 3D Mag works? Of course not! You guys may be numb to new developments after the appearance of 130L pocket lights, but I'm not, and neither are the other n00bs. We'd all love a tiny, 400L monster, and you can bet that we'd be jawing about it like there was no tomorrow. Of course, newcomers would be confused about all the hubbub (no doubt you've all seen a few of the "what's this Cree thing I keep hearing about?" threads), but some kind soul would stoop to the n00b's level and explain it to them, and the newcomer would be slightly less green.

This thread has an insular, antagonistic, haughty tone, and I don't like it. I've seen several veterans mentioning lately in this and other threads that they might or will leave CPF. If you don't like how CPF is going, you can try to improve CPF, you can leave CPF, you can make your own flashlight forum... It doesn't do anyone any good for you to hang around and complain how things ain't what they used to be with these young whippersnappers and their newfangled doohickeys and their spendin' money, runnin' up inflation, buying those commie Chinese lights.

How's this for a constructive idea:

At one year as a member and 500 posts in light-related fora, you gain access to the "Ivory Tower" forum, specifically designed for high-falutin' talk about whatever it is you veterans like to discuss.

I'd like to use this last paragraph to apologize to you veterans. My intent is not to upset you, but rather to show you the negative feelings this thread has created and spur you to positive action. I felt that it would be a disservice not to elucidate the matter from the point of view of your unsuspecting and only partly deserving target, the n00bs. CPF is for everyone, n00bs and vets alike, and we can best serve it by getting along, not by complaining about each other.

:grouphug:


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## MicroE (Jan 27, 2007)

Do unto others as would have them do unto you.


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## Empath (Jan 27, 2007)

That was a great post, Tigerhawk.

The "feelings" demonstrated in the theme of the thread is likely something we all, or most of us, feel at times. Dealing with them on a personal basis is what maturity is about. Attempting to drag everyone else into the vortex of negativity, and encouraging the separating of members into groups of "acceptable" and "unacceptable" is more hazardous to the board than anything mentioned.

There is nothing sacred about an old-timer, charter member, or low registration number. When any member, whether new or old, reaches the point that the hobby, the forum, or the members of the forum no longer hold their interest, I'm convinced it's in CPF's interest that they move on or severely reduce their active participation. There's nothing negative or antisocial about stepping back from the meal and excusing yourself from the table when the appetite has been satisfied, or when the conversation becomes redundant.

I love CPF, and apparently there are many here that do. I love the people here at CPF, whether they're new, old, or somewhere in-between. While I may find efforts and expressions designed to cause differentiation unsettling, I still recognize that even that is part of the package. It too will either pass or bring about a new chapter. But, that's about people. CPF is about flashlights.

Incidentally, speaking from purely a statistical and new-member joining/old-member leaving stand-point, CPF is growing at an unprecedented rate. The participation is still significant, and there's no sign of a problem in those numbers.


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## js (Jan 27, 2007)

Tigerhawk and Empath,

Great posts!

For the record, I do try to help anyone and everyone, no matter what their join date or post count is. And, for the record, I don't consider myself a veteran--but I'm not a newbie either, of course. I also try to create helpful and valuable threads for the benefit of anyone with access to CPF, regardless of their tenure.

And as I said, there is nothing wrong with wanting the latest and greatest.

However, there has been a marked increase in "fluff" threads and question threads that could have been answered with a minimum of research. This is not a positive thing for CPF. Nor is an increase in attacks and counter-attacks on lights and their owners and promoters.

It's not the fact that any given poster is a newbie or not, or that he or she is knowledgeable or not--it's that there is an increased lack of respect for the board, for keeping it less cluttered, for not repeatedly generating the same threads, the same questions, the same answers.

As for positivity and tone, my own thread on more or less this subject, Calling all CPF veterans - CPF needs our help! was a plea to "veterans" to participate more and to add quality content and activity to the boards. It wasn't a lament over the changes, but rather a call for enactment of positive change. As McGizmo says, CPF is what we make it. So if the veterans don't participate or advise or influence CPF, then they can't really complain about the direction it takes.


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## greenlight (Jan 27, 2007)

I didn't get it.


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## carrot (Jan 27, 2007)

Tigerhawk and Empath, I respect both of your opinions. I have no problems with newbies or "silly" questions. I do not like to think that we are at odds here, but as we are all members of CPF we are really on the same side and should continue to contribute what we can to keep CPF as the great place that it is, not only a place to share a wealth of knowledge and information, to get excited about flashlights, and to talk about other unrelated topics, but a community that welcomes others afflicted with our "disease" with open arms.

Like you said, Tigerhawk, it is important for the more experienced users to help the lesser experienced, in order to continue the flow of information and to ensure that when a veteran decides to step away from the boards, (s)he can do so without fearing that knowledge will be lost. I am sorry that you feel I have cast upon us a thread with "an insular, antagonistic, haughty tone," and looking back I can see that your observations are absolutely correct, and for that, I am sorry. I do not mean to portray that I am in any way above others, or that newbies (I still regard myself as one!) should be ostracized, only that I do not like the direction that CPF seems to be taking at this time. I do lament that posts that we used to see with more frequency, such as posts about actually using lights (JSB's "Where have all the users gone?" makes me think of this) occur rarely nowadays. 

And as I mentioned in a previous post, it seems that there are a lot of people who troll others just because their opinion is different, and I agree with JS that respect has a lot to do with it. Respect for other users, respect for the board, these are things that make a community, but some people do not seem to be share that same feeling.


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## Owen (Jan 27, 2007)

I've been here awhile, and have been participating in online forums devoted to one interest or another since 1998 or earlier. 
A lot of this has probably already been said, maybe in a different way... 
This gradual change at CPF mirrors what I've seen happen to a lot of other places online, from firearms and (especially)"tactical" forums, to knives, lights, car audio, outdoor gear, etc, so it's nothing new, but still frustrating to watch. 
As they've grown over the years, every single one of the forums I've frequented have gone from small communities with shared interests to masses of misinformation that are hard to stomach in anything but small doses. I think the biggest factor in that change is the availability of the internet to younger members(if that offends you, it probably applies to you-age isn't the real problem, content is). As computers and online access became cheaper and more widespread, online forums went steadily downhill.
What were once groups of sincere and serious adults seeking better products or solutions to meet their goals without pretention or agenda have degraded to Romper Room-like affairs dominated by children(of all ages) who really need a good slap instead of a keyboard to tap on, and find the internet a convenient outlet to demand attention for underfed egos, and display idiotic behavior that other people...well, people like me, anyway, would never put up with in the real world.
If you take a look around here, and are familiar with the way it was several years ago, you can't help but notice that it is a totally different place.
The lack of respect, and nonstop trolling on the exchange forums where people have time and money involved, the bad or totally impertinent information given to people who ask questions in the general forums, the impractical suggestions and requests on the manufacturing forums, the agendas of the brand loyalists, and the endless repetition of questions, whose answers are visible on the same page half the time, put quite a damper on things.

I'm sure that there are many professional forums that my comments don't apply to, but for hobby sites and other generalized forums, I see no positive end in sight, because the line between intolerance and general acceptance is way too gray, and political correctness way too prevalent. I just know that there is still a wealth of good information available on many such sites, but unlike years past, I no longer recommend new people to seek it, because there is so much bad information that the uninitiated have no way of sifting through. I don't look for new information about other subjects in forums for the same reason.
IMO, it's truly sad that internet forums in general have defeated their own purpose, because they can be an invaluable resource in the search for knowledge. 

I still post here, and frequently. The hobby hasn't lost all of its appeal, and even though I've become much more practical about what I keep, and what I'm willing to try out, there is a ton of new and interesting stuff that I love to read up on, and sometimes buy. Alot of the enjoyment and interest has been killed off, though.

I think respect is indeed the issue-the absence of it by the "special" people who yet demand it.


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## DasRonin (Jan 27, 2007)

I'll jump in. I am new here and on the surface it seems like there are three segments to this population. The hardcore old school techies. Building and modifying lights. Kinda like the flashlight version of the ham radio "Elmers" who look at technology and experiment to see what they can do. The next group are the collectors. They strive to get all of a certain class of light and keep them on a shelf. The third are people who use their lights as tools. They select by the utilitarian aspect of the lights.

To a point these groups cross, but for the most part they seem to stay in their own world.

When I found a forum called AR15.com, I was very pleased with the information available at that site. When I first posted there a few people tried to treat me like the village idiot based on my low post count. Many people judged others knowledge of the subject matter by post count. If you had a low post count, what the heck could you actually know.

Unfortunately I have picked up a bit of that here based on which of the three groups you fit into. If you are not a builder/experimenter, you get ignored. If you are a tactical user, the collectors question the validity of some designs, or your usage beyond lumens.

That is all well and good, but the division really hurts the forum. Just like the assumption of knowledge relates to post count to many at AR15.com.

I hope I am wrong, because this is a great site for the latest information on what is new and what is possible. But as much as I am fascinated with the available collective knowledge, I am sadly impressed by the division and what appears to be the polar isolation by my observed categories.

Not that anyone cares, but I am new, and a tactical user of light. Not an armchair tactical user, but a real deal user. My lights have been and are tools. I use them because I need them. I respect the choice of all members here to fit into which category they do... and understand it means as much to them as my use does to me.

I will have to say I am very disappointed. I have seen a member here that seems to be well known for mods to lights. I am dramatically impressed with his work. I emailed this person, maybe twice trying to find out about mods to a SF M1 I have that I'd like converted from IR. It would be great to have a light that small and rugged to use on the job. I'd also like to have a E2D converted to led. The incan bulb is the weak point that hard use will atack. I need something that can take abuse, and still light up.

I have never received a reply. So now I wonder why. Is it because of the division of the three groups? Is it because I am a new member? Is it because I am not a serious lumen junky? I do not know. I have lost interest in pursuing the mods. If my type does not fit in with that type... I am not going to force my way in. 

Of course if I do not get the chance to cross group learn, I will not feel there is any support here to grow into that group. Beyond the tactical category I see myself fitting into, I also have a techie background "from a pervious life" so to speak. I don't go where I am not welcome.

I do know this. Division and apathy to others is what will destroy this forum, or change it from what the collectors and moders are used to in years past. Change is part of life. You can embrace it and direct it to what you would like to see, or you can stubbornly resist change and doom it to be a change you will hate. Or in other words, you can be part of the problem or part of the solution!

It is sad really, because I have seen in a very short time what AR15.com has become. A bunch of rude post count building _____ who act like a forum version of an aggressive driver. Face to face they are some of the best people you know, but get behind the keyboard with the anominity it gives... and they act out in a way you could never imagine. I'd hate to see that here. Or ignoring contact or interaction with others.

Change happens. You can get on the bus, or get run over by the bus.

Ah, but I am a newby, what the heck could I know!


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## Lit Up (Jan 27, 2007)

Well, I'll just say I'm always up for seeing human innovation in technology to see how current problems can be overcome. Taking an existing technology and getting more from it. You could certainly take an egg and just accept it in its raw form or you could decide to poach, scramble, fry or boil it instead.

Technology is always going to have its arrow pointing: ---This way--->
And more times than not companies follow that arrow as it's a new product meaning a new source of revenue and what's deemed as "older" to some is left by the wayside. That certainly doesn't mean it's not useful, it just means it's less likely to be available from manufacturers in the future as more efficient methods come about.

Alot of businesses are built around this improvement structure. PCs, cell phones, digital cameras, storage methods, etc.


Secondly, I take any and all info from here and the internet as a whole with a grain of salt.

For example, If I had taken all the wide array of charts and info presented on here about Streamlight's 1xAA tasklight as having a battery drainage problem via it's electronic switch as the gospel truth, I never would've ventured past a Gerber UI for a dimmer light source and realized that this "issue" wasn't infact an issue at all. Instead I bought one and found it not only to be a non-existant issue, but a much better light compared to a Gerber UI (Yes, I own both and this is my opinion.)

Lastly, If people want to boast about having the means and access to the newest and 'greatest,' fine. It certainly doesn't mke me feel any less about the humble collection I do own. I ask a light to fulfill my needs and purposes - fullstop.
When they do that, I'm satisfied. When they don't, I go shopping for one that does. Plain and simple.

Just my .02 cents.


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## Topper (Jan 27, 2007)

I do not care so much as "post count" nor the join date. It is the post I look at. I have sat on answers waiting for other more "up on it" to respond when they do not quick enough (for me) I step in not happy/ not an "expert" but I will. I understand carrot as towards his thread on this. I find it ironic as I am a "newbie" to me. I think we might take a second look at his first post. I am all up for the thought pattern "yep its all good at CPF" well that is not quite true. I do not blame the Admins and Mods." I have seen the enemy it is us"
Topper


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## Kiessling (Jan 27, 2007)

Tigerhawk ... no targets selected. No guns armed. No battle.

Just observations about the past and the present, and personal preferences and reasons given. Personal reasons. But reasons just as valid as everyone else's. 
Negative conclusions and criticism do have their place, even on CPF. We who do not feel well about the latest development of CPF should be able to voice our concerns.

Awareness of a possible problem is important, and it seems the general direction of carrot's post touched quite some members, one way or the other. This can actually be a start for some efforts to improve tbhe situation ... in a way we would like to see it. It might be that the majority of the membership sees otherwise and we will perish. But all is better than silence, and awareness of a problem is a start.
Like this thread.



Empath ... if I read your post correctly ... voicing my dissent with the current developments on CPF is immature and will lead to unwanted negativity ... and it would be better if I pack my thing and go home?


I disagree. I will exercise my right to shape this community just like all the others do, and won't sit there idly and watch it take a road where I cannot or do not want to follow. If I have to voice a non-positive opinion, then so be it.

bernie


P.S.: of course it is utter bullshit to class members into groups of different worth based on some obscure criteria. There we do agree 120%. But somehow I think that the complaints of veterean vs noob do not come from the aspect of arrogance vs uneduacated but more from a direction of different concepts and preferences for this community. But I might once again be wrong.


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## Empath (Jan 27, 2007)

Kiessling said:


> Empath ... if I read your post correctly



You apparently didn't; and don't expect me to take up a defense against expanded interpretation.


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## Icebreak (Jan 28, 2007)

Interest and enthusiasm can be cyclical. At one time it seemed there was little to be excited about.

There has always been hope.



MicroE said:


> I'm hoping that Nichia or some dark horse in the business will splash onto the scene with a high-power (1W+) white LED.


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## TigerhawkT3 (Jan 28, 2007)

QUOTE
Originally posted by *Kiessling*:

Tigerhawk ... no targets selected. No guns armed. No battle.

Just observations about the past and the present, and personal preferences and reasons given. Personal reasons. But reasons just as valid as everyone else's. 
Negative conclusions and criticism do have their place, even on CPF. We who do not feel well about the latest development of CPF should be able to voice our concerns.

Awareness of a possible problem is important, and it seems the general direction of carrot's post touched quite some members, one way or the other. This can actually be a start for some efforts to improve tbhe situation ... in a way we would like to see it. It might be that the majority of the membership sees otherwise and we will perish. But all is better than silence, and awareness of a problem is a start.
Like this thread.

Empath ... if I read your post correctly ... voicing my dissent with the current developments on CPF is immature and will lead to unwanted negativity ... and it would be better if I pack my thing and go home?

I disagree. I will exercise my right to shape this community just like all the others do, and won't sit there idly and watch it take a road where I cannot or do not want to follow. If I have to voice a non-positive opinion, then so be it.

bernie

P.S.: of course it is utter bullchip to class members into groups of different worth based on some obscure criteria. There we do agree 120%. But somehow I think that the complaints of veterean vs noob do not come from the aspect of arrogance vs uneduacated but more from a direction of different concepts and preferences for this community. But I might once again be wrong.

/QUOTE
--------------------------------------

To Kiessling:
Please understand that I am NOT urging you to stand idly by while CPF changes from an enjoyable community into a disheartening morass (if that's what you see happening). By all means, Kiessling, do all you can to improve CPF. I don't see anything wrong at all with that.

To everyone:
Don't dwell on your worries; act on them. Be the change! You CAN be heard here on CPF, so tell us your ideas for a better forum experience. Who knows, your suggestion might be implemented and benefit around 20,000 flashaholics.

P.S.: Kiessling, I hope you don't mind that I edited the profanity in your above quoted post. I think the meaning is mostly unchanged.


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## LEDninja (Jan 28, 2007)

One of the problems I find is the sheer size of CPF.
After being caught with a dead batteryin my solitaire during the big blackout of august 2003, I went looking for an LED replacment abd discovered CPF. I went through a few months worth of threads, browing for a couple of weeks during my lunch hour. There were IIRC 3-5 new threads /day.
Now I spend 3 hours/daytrying to keep up wuth the last day's posts. Just in Cafe, LED and General. And I go into only a quarter of the threads.
Minor irritations now became major ones because they get repeated so many times.
May 2004 - There are over 5000 registered members in the database with over 2000 of them active on a monthly basis.
Right now - Members: 22,369 (some 10,000 registering in 2006)

Another problem is the sheer number of lights being introduced. A year and a half ago manufacturers wre introducing maybe a new light a year. They were different from each other and each has it's own niche.
Since the introduction of the now very popular 1AA 1 watt easily pocketable flashlight a host of copycats have shown up. Then they all started to upgrade the lights to stay on top of the competition. This has resulted in lots of heated discussion aboutwhich one is better NOW.

The admins seem to be rigorous in removing threads that do not belong in General. Yet anything remotely connected toleds are allowed to stay in LED. Some of these threads clearly belong to the manufacturers or dealer forums.
OTOH strictly following the rules cause it's own problems. One member started a discussion of the different versions of anled light in LED. A modder improved on the design and sent samples to the thread originator for comment. The mods were reviewed in REVIEWS. The modder explained the theory behind the mods in ELECTRONICS and posted a how to in MODS. Everything is in it's proper place but I hav to go to 4 different subforums to read all about it.

Icebreak posted a link showing flashaholics with irrational exuberance existed as far back as 2002.
A 2004 link asking CPF members to behave themselveshas recently resurfaced.
*ALL MEMBERS ~ MUST READ!! *
http://candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=50473

BTW carrot before the end of this quater there will be more newcomers after you than oldtimers before you and you can not call yourself a newbie anymore.


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## Kiessling (Jan 28, 2007)

Empath said:


> You apparently didn't; and don't expect me to take up a defense against expanded interpretation.



No, I do not expect anything. 
It would have been nice if clarification or a basis for discussion would have been provided instead of just ignoring / slapping someone who apparently does not have your level in the arts of communication in English though. And who apparently took your argument for something different than it really was.
Yet there is symmetry in what Tigerhawk does not want to happen on CPF and what we both just lived with those few posts.

bernie


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## leukos (Jan 29, 2007)

evolution vs. apocalypse


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## InfidelCastro (Jan 29, 2007)

..


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## JonSidneyB (Feb 2, 2007)

One of the things I miss is that so many of the ideas that are commonplace were born here. Yes there are newer lights but they are different combinations of what was done here first. It might be wrong to think this way but It seems like most things are no longer born on this forum.

Something else that disturbs me a bit is what I guess could be called pet lights. Lights to me are tools and if the tool fits it is the right one for the job but all lights are compromises no matter how you cut it. It might just be me but it seems like I see many inappropriate suggestions for utility functions.

I hope people will realize that these things are used for different purposes and the utility function varies with the task.


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## greenLED (Feb 2, 2007)

JonSidneyB said:


> Something else that disturbs me a bit is what I guess could be called pet lights. Lights to me are tools and if the tool fits it is the right one for the job but all lights are compromises no matter how you cut it. It might just be me but it seems like I see many inappropriate suggestions for utility


I think we should re-think the whole "best" thing. I'd rather think of the "right" tool (light) for a job. ...and I agree with Jon on the compromises.


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## iveseenthelight (Feb 2, 2007)

I have been lurking here since summer 2006. I joined in January 2007 because I am finally able to get out and start actually buying some of the lights I have long admired. I have loved flashlights for as long as I can remember and when I stumbled upon CPF I thought I had found heaven. I see the commercialism and cruel posting but I am able to over look that. Some of the commercialism is good for bringing the attention of up and coming quality lights to the fore front of everyone's attention. The biggest thing I keep telling myself is to ignore the negativity and stay positive. I offer what little knowledge I have to anyone who wants it and I know that there are more than plenty of current members who would do the same. With just a little effort this place can be infinitley better than it already is. Any newb flashlight freak who finds this place is a better flashaholic for it. 


A+ post carrot.:rock:


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## Esthan (Feb 16, 2007)

Carrot,

What has happened to that crossed sheep from Your singnature ?

Please ressurect it, it made me smile


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## EngrPaul (Feb 16, 2007)

Carrot, 

I read your schpeel, and then considered your signature. I'm  about anti-consumerism comments.

_Stand back for a moment and think, do you *really* need the latest and greatest?... a sad state of greedy materialistic armchair flashaholics... Mass consumerism at its finest, indeed._
_________________
_Collector and distributor of (mis)information._
_The Surefire A2 Aviator. You know you want one. :nana:_
(Underline mine)

There are still countries where you can go to be told what you cannot say, and that consumerism is bad. Just a reminder, you live in USA.

CPF is a place for people to go to discuss the latest and greatest light technology. Always has been from what I've seen. If there is a sudden rash of newbies around that like to share their excitement or ask questions, why should we squelch them?

If the influx of posts on a specific topic (i.e. "Fenix", "my new flashlight") is making it unappealing to visit CPF, then perhaps there should be a separate subforum for the topic. Or, maybe a moderator should move people's reviews of flashlights to the review section (I have yet to see this happen).


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## flashy bazook (Feb 16, 2007)

first I want to start by saying that, as someone who has joined this community forum recently, my feeling is that it is a very POSITIVE and supportive community! BRAVO should be the first comment, and the last.

Second, I do have experience in other internet forums, and when I compare this one to those other forums I think that this one compares very favorably! So even though it is natural to have some letdown after being here for a long time, I urge the old-timers to continue to focus on the positives and not to let the inevitable negatives drag you down.

what are these inevitable negatives? well, commercialism for one. It is a simple evolution actually, because those with a financial interest will, over time, devote the time and resources to acquire influence in those forums that matter for their livelihoods. they will build up those post counts, if only because they keep posting regarding many products, and hundreds of transactions. And there is commercialism in the broader culture, we are all consumers after all, and it will seep through here. That's how it is.

I don't want to say that this is a completely negative development, because good manufacturers and dealers will have valuable knowledge to contribute - they know technical details about the products, have advanced knowledge of what's in the pipeline, etc. Together, a strong group of old-timers can also help keep in check those less worthy manufacturers and dealers, and feedback from consumers can reveal problems if these persist over time.

one of the strengths of the forum is in fact that there are those responsive manufacturers that use it to find out about what advanced users really want - and then to provide it in fast timeframe! (what about that Lumapower? It is unbelievable what these guys have been doing and how fast they have been doing it).

another inevitable problem is the fatigue of the old-timers, together with a development of cliques - networks and groups of individuals that develop bonds over time. If unchecked, such groups could develop in a negative way, to exclude others and to try to protect "turf," by which it is meant to try and keep others from developing a following by questioning their credentials.

I haven't observed much of this here so far, the people seem far too nice, but it is inevitable that such a feeling or perception will develop. The key is to have a balance between the helpful and watchful contributions of the old-timers with the introduction and cultivation of new, and enthusiastic, blood.

then there are these issues with new technology, satisfying uses and needs vs. some kind of technological measure of superiority. My feeling on this is that there is a technological revolution going on, we are on the verge (have started, really) to receive marvels in terms of durability, performance, lumen count, and runtime - especially regarding small but high voltage formfactors. Together with electric circuits that can handle different types of batteries/voltage loads/lumen outputs, we've never had it so good.

Personally this is one reason I have become more interested and have been spending time here, both reading and hopefully contributing (to the extend of my abilities and knowledge).

What does all this mean for the hobbyist modders? I don't know, probably there will be a period where their own contributions are less, because progress depends on these advanced electrical circuits mated to what are rapidly changing LEDs. But, over time, this too will change, as it will become possible for individuals to have access to specially designed circuits at reasonable cost, so individual creativity can have open space to express itself once more.

OK, I think as a new person I've pretty much exhausted any good will I might have had already (!), thanks if you've read this far, and I will sit back and continue to enjoy this thread. By the way, I think that expressing feelings, even negative ones, is a very good thing about the internet, and I have no problem with (I even enjoy, at least sometimes) threads of this nature. We all need some therapy from time to time, and why not use the freely available internet rather than some super duper expensive psychologist?

Finally, BRAVO again to those who have been contributing here for all these years, individuals, moderators, dealers, manufacturers, whatever. There is a treasure trove of stuff hidden here, if only our search engines could keep pace!


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## carrot (Feb 16, 2007)

EngrPaul, I never claimed to be above it all. Nor do I lay claim to not being a hypocrite myself. My sigline represents what is often my normal stance, that the Surefire A2, or other dual output lights like it can easily suit the needs of most users, without much overkill. It only occurs to me that there are many people who post without thinking, especially when recommending a flashlight, which usually happens to be the current flashlight of the month. I am by no means hoping to squelch the hype or consumerism, but I am concerned that hype is all we have and not discussing a light's merits, weaknesses, flaws, and uses as much as I had once seen.


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## 3rd_shift (Feb 16, 2007)

I too have noticed some changes since I joined almost 3 years ago.

I have come to just let the newest and coolest expensive lights pass me by, in favor of just modding a few existing lights I have up to the newest technologies.
I have flashlights all over my apartment now and that has become enough.

There are definitely groups and social circles forming all the time with this ever growing forum.
Kinda like what happens when a town becomes a city.
More and more, cpf is getting to be like a city instead of a small town community like it virtually was.

There may be pitfalls with the growing pains, but there are some benefits worth taking advantage of as they come along.

I'm staying.  :grouphug:


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## EngrPaul (Feb 16, 2007)

carrot said:


> the Surefire A2, or other dual output lights like it can easily suit the needs of most users, without much overkill. It only occurs to me that there are many people who post without thinking, especially when recommending a flashlight,


 
How much does it cost again? :thinking:

Maybe all the excitement is over bright flashlights that are pocketable AND inexpensive.

No everyone can afford an A2. People tend to talk about what they do have, or what they can afford. 

There are so many new products coming out, that there had to be a sticky put up to index them all.

The reason that there is a new flavor every month is that there is a new flashlight every month. :laughing: 

So... maybe what some of the "old-timers" don't like is a new breed of flashlight owner that can get a bright flashlight with long runtime and not have to pay a lot of money.

In another words, their Jos A Banks just turned into a K-mart, and they don't like the kind of low-rent shoppers around them.


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## milkyspit (Feb 16, 2007)

This is neither here nor there, but with respect to newbies finding old information, it seems to me we might be nearing the point of collecting 'metadata'... data about data. I can see a time when various folks take it upon themselves to mine the old threads on CPF pertaining to a specific topic, and perhaps maintain a thread gathering links to these together along with more recent threads. Folks might do this out of a personal interest in something specific, whether it's a light (A2, Fenix), brand (SureFire, Novatac), component (reflectors, optics, regulation circuits), or even something more abstract (color temperature theory, visual response to light, beam patterns and their uses). I don't know if it's going to happen but I do know it would probably help... kind of the way (warning... TERRIBLE analogy ahead) in a small town I may know all the stores and where they're located, while in Manhattan I can't possibly know, yet I can grab a copy of Zagat and find a great restaurant that maybe I wouldn't have found on my own.

Anyway, just some idle thoughts for general consumption!


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## Esthan (Feb 16, 2007)

Carrot,

People are people, if they want to waste time and 
server space for whatever reasons, they will do it. 
Since few people here on CPF possess illumination 
tools and the rest seems to be possessed by 
flashlights, expect the invasion of the armchair 
flashaholics to become stronger and more barbaric.

I learned ignore that, all in all they seem to hold the
majority of $ votes and keep the business runing.
Vox populi 



P.S.
The crossed sheep is back :] Thank You.


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## MacTech (Feb 28, 2007)

Carrot, i can certainly see where you're coming from here, and yes, there seem to be a large number of "bragging" threads recently, but i'd like to counterpoint your view of the current state of CPF....

i think all newbies go through a stage of "reckless aquisition", high on their newfound growing knowledge that *powerful* flashlights don't have to be big heavy aluminum tubes with a cammed reflector and focusing head, or that there is more to a good flashlight than that battered old plastic 2-cell light tucked away in their junk drawer.....

armed with this knowledge, they go crazy, purchasing light after light, and are so elated by their new-found hobby, that they feel they *must* brag to anyone who will listen, unfortunately, the Unenlightened general public's reaction to enthusiast lights is generally "meh" or "you paid *how much* for *that*?, are you *insane*, it's "just a flashlight"....

so, they find, on CPF, a sympathetic ear (and no shortage of other enthusiastic enablers, ready and willing to help the newb spend their money on lights that *they* think are cool  )

sound familiar, i know that was *me* for a while, high on the power and efficiency of LED, reveling in the raw muscle of a Hotwire, my purchasing was out of control, i could probably have lit up my entire block and be seen from orbit.....

somewhere though, the high started to fade, i purchased a certain well-known regulated incandescent/LED hybrid light that a certain OP gleefully promotes in his signature line (kind of ironic, Carrot decrying the crass materialism currently running rampant in CPF, yet promoting a rather expensive light with a cult following in his sig line  ), and you know what, it *satisfied* my needs, it may not be the most retina-burning light out there, it may not have a flawless beam beloved by WWH'ers, but it's a good, solid, dependable tool that fits my *needs*

ever since then, i have drastically cut back my purchasing of lights, and have instead focused on actually *using* my lights (and coincidentally, my purchasing habits have shifted from aquiring vast quantities of flashlights to instead acquiring vast quantities of CR123a batteries to feed said well-renouned Hybrid cult-light.....  )

I've also been able to resist the Cree craze, as thanks to the beamshots provided by my fellow CPF'ers, i've not seen enough of a reason to abandon my perfectly functional and usable Luxeons, yes the Cree is brighter, so what, brighter isn't always better, and i do admit to being annoyed by the ringy beam in some popular Cree-ed lights, but since Cree Mfg. hasn't yet found some way to cause non-cree lights to stop functioning (a nuclear EMP perhaps  ) i have no need to replace perfectly functional lights just because they're no longer "new"

trying out a Cree XR-E drop-in lamp assembly for my SureFire 6P, just so i can see what all the fuss is about, allowed me to impartially decide that i don't "need" to replace my current lights, the replacement price-to-lumen-increase just doesn't make sense to me.....

i guess what i'm *trying* to say here is that in my case, CPF has helped me become *less* materialistic, to spend *less* money on lights (instead i spend it on batteries  ) and to appreciate the lights i *do* have, in fact, i've been slowly whittling down my collection to a manageable number of lights, mainly by giving away my unused lights, i've played with them, had my fun, got my moneys worth out of them, now it's time to allow others to enjoy nice lights, who knows, maybe they'll discover CPF on their own and enter their own vicious cycle.....


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## L.E.D. (Mar 15, 2007)

CPF will always be CPF, the place to go if you want to know the latest and greatest regarding illumination. Sure the population here may have grown tremendously, but like someone said, do you see the glass as half empty or half full? With these new LED's coming out from Cree / Seoul and the upcoming next generation ones from Lumileds (Rebel), I DEFINITELY see it as being half full. True there are a lot of fluff threads, but any of the fluff that is truly irrelevant / fraudulent is deleted by admins / mods anyway. Nothing wrong with buying lights for showing off (I use my lights a lot but also enjoy showing them off sometimes), it's their money, they can spend it and use it as they see fit, and nothing wrong with getting the best value on your purchase. Would you rather buy a $200+ light which runs on cr123's or a $50+ light which runs on AA's that puts the former to shame?


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## EV_007 (Mar 16, 2007)

MacTech said:


> Carrot, i can certainly see where you're coming from here, and yes, there seem to be a large number of "bragging" threads recently, but i'd like to counterpoint your view of the current state of CPF....
> 
> i think all newbies go through a stage of "reckless aquisition", high on their newfound growing knowledge that *powerful* flashlights don't have to be big heavy aluminum tubes with a cammed reflector and focusing head, or that there is more to a good flashlight than that battered old plastic 2-cell light tucked away in their junk drawer.....
> 
> ...




I agree well said.


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## cmaylodm (Mar 16, 2007)

[rant]
One of the only problems I see in this community are the few close-minded folks who insist that people must own Surefire lights because they are soooo good or people who trash Surefire because its soooo expensive. Expensive lights are great, cheap lights are great, every light has its own merits and faults. Open your mind a bit! I EDC cheap lights because I don't care too much about losing them, modding them is great fun, and they are functionally identical to a Surefire given my everyday working conditions. However, if it was ever mission-critical to have a working light, you're damn right I'd have my Surefire on me. However, I think it's a little ridiculous to be spending >$300 on some custom titanium shiny piece of bragging rights when you can spend $40 and have something functionally identical. It's like buying a Ferrari to get groceries when a Toyota will do just fine. If you're not using it to race, you're just showing off.
[/rant]

Granted, I haven't been around long, but this is the only forum that has drawn me in and held my attention for this amount of time. AFAIK, this forum is THE source of flashlight information; never before have I seen something dedicated to flashlights like I have for cars, guns, computers, etc. There are some great people on here who make this hobby possible, and without this community I think we'd all be in the dark when it comes to flashlights. I think this forum is one of the rare gems of the internet, and while I haven't been around to see the ups and downs of CPF, I can only predict that it will continue to grow and produce more knowledge.


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## MarNav1 (Mar 17, 2007)

I personally haven't been on CPF all that long either but CPF has helped to change
me more as a person as much as buying or selling light's. When I first signed up (can
not remember exactly why) I got caught up in some of the hoopla you know best
brightest etc. Now that I've pretty much learned the light's I like and do not like for
me I enjoy welcoming new folks and hopefully pointing them in the right direction more
than buying or selling. This was something I did not expect. I took my sig line off for
the most part and while buying a new light is still fun helping the others or just saying
nice light or welcome or well done has become more satisfying for me. There have been
disagreements here or there but not many. CPF has helped me (grow up) in a way
and that's been the best part.


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## jayflash (Mar 17, 2007)

The flashlight landscape has completely changed during CPF's seven years. In the beginning only, fairly dim, 5mm LED's existed as an alternative to incans, IIRC. It was still mostly roll-your-own, even after CPF member Peter Gransee produced the first Luxeon powered light.

New CPF members are entering a completely different world of flashlights and we are attracting a different group of users.


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## thesurefire (Mar 21, 2007)

I've been registered a while, and been around quite a while, and watched CPF go through some of it's phases, and I agree that right now it's a lot about who has the coolest toy, or what new light is best, but the key point, to me at least, is that it keeps putting out new and innovative idea's into the flashlight world.

5 years ago no one thought about putting 4 S bins luxIs into a maglite because we didn’t have the drivers, we didn’t have S bin LuxIs and it wasn’t foreseeable that we could ever get a 2C maglight with rechargeable cells to be brighter then a stock 6D maglight. I cant keep up with the changing technology. It seems like just a few months ago no one had heard of crees, now their everywhere. 

I still EDC a luxeon U bin RAW, and an (original) ArcAAA. I don’t need a new led light till its perfected and half the price it is now. I still like reading about them though. 

CPF will change, and if its going thought a wave of 'who has the best toy' so be it. I dont really mind as long as the info is good.


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## chesterqw (Mar 21, 2007)

now i know what it means when my english teacher said that she needs a lot of time to mark our essays(is there a s behind?).

so far, i have read 2 posts!   ( 98 left)


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## Robban (Mar 21, 2007)

I've been here 3 or so years now (and still consider myself a newbie around here) and I to have seen changes. Some positive and some negative. The biggest change I've noticed is, like you mentioned, a shift towards getting lights to brag about them. And also a dip in the number of "hey look what I made out of two tubes of PVC, toilet paper and a landing light"-threads which saddens me. A couple of years ago it seemed like more people were experimenting, trying to create something new. Now most every thread seems centered around what the latest and cheapest scorcher from Hong Kong is and how it's horribly over priced even at $30. If someone had posted a thread two years ago about a light that cost ONLY $30 and put out over 100 lumens people wouldn't even believe you.

What I've also noticed is that it seems as if the average age of members is going down steadily (not that I'm very old myself at 26). While it's great that the younger generations are getting interested in this hobby it also brings a sort of immaturity and in some cases even disrespect to a lot of threads which is, quite frankly, really annoying.

All that said I still love this place and it's by *far* the most helpful and friendly forum I've ever been part of.


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## Mr.Urahara reloaded (Mar 22, 2007)

It really saddens me to see this Thread. ( Please be patient with my english, i konw)
It's my second!! revival here at cpf, some might now me as Mr.Urahara and back off as Leviathan_Seaker. After my first acount i decided to turn away from cpf, in 2004. Getting my seconf id here back on 2006 cree madness was breaking through. When i see Threats like : "*$9.99 CREE P4 AA @ XXX"
*it is really pissing me off. Does nobody of those guys which post there know or CARE how those lights were made?????????????????????

@Carrot: I thougt i wouldn't take much part in conversation here at cpf anymore, but your post made me think a lot.
BUT a bitter pill in everyones life ( or live?, damn, my english is really bad)
is to realize that everything will be replaced by something more advanced, wheter it is really better or not. This it was happend to cpf even by growning to something on another level. Commercial maners seems to be the only ( okay, seems to be the most important thing to many "new" and "younger" members here around) thing. What can someone do?
Well, one can achieve not enough, but as a many we are strong. Don't get me wrong, i have nothing about people here getting their money making business, but i think cpf should be something else than a discussing marketplace. 

I really apprerciate Sasha posting here to share some experience he achieved. Following AWR's thread for example, i really like things getting moving on here to keep cpf what it always should be: a place to meet other people who share the same interests, to get advices for mods or just to discuss about things. I'm realy happy to be here again, and don't want cpf to evolve into a commercial "Fleischwolf".:thumbsdow

On the other hand we need those people who think they always want the best and ever newest things around, they keep technology rotate to new higher levels. To which cost is in this case not so important.

I think it is a manor of mankind to reach for the stars, and that is what is now happening to cpf, especially in Led section. With those crree, Seoul, Edison..... things rapidly change. everyone on the cutting edge is thinking a new breakthrough is in close range.

@ Kiessling



> 10 times more users with ten times more idiots. Because you only notice the bad apples.



Uhmmm.... 1., your German right?

2. Well, i think it's more like : 10 more time memebers are like 10! ( fakultät, factorial), the more rot together, the more proportional you get more idiots into one concentration.

After stating all this, i decided to encourage more here on cpf, not to give stupidity a chance!!!!!!

Carrot, thanks for this very informative and serious thread.!!!!!


Mr. Urahara reloaded


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## woodrow (Mar 31, 2007)

I as a member here for a little over a year just wanted to say thanks to all of you who make (and have made) this place what it is. Thanks to the moderators, Sasha, Size 13's and so many others. I have loved (and bought) decently bright lights over the last 20 years, and it has made my heart glad to know there are others who share my love.

I have worried if those who started this site would ever get bored by it. It was very sad for me to see Quickbeam retire (thankfully semi-not full), yet I do not blame him...after a while you just need to take a break. A while back, I finally shot a few 1/4" MOA groups with my rifle...now, lifelong goal being hit...I have not taken it out and shot it sense. I worry that those who started this site feeling the same way, bored.

As to the new products... I feel they are needed. How long is it fun (unless you have serious modding skills) to just look at 6P's or TL-3's ect and come up with new topics. Plus I have bought several of my new lights for less than the price of my old M3.

So I thank the "Old Timers" for keeping the site going and putting up with the insolence of the "new" members. I believe with all these "Cheap Chinese" lights many more will be joining as they are amazed by a friends $50.00 light.

I also thank those who are kind and humble in their posts. But, I also love those who stir the pot and irriatate and ruffle feathers, because they help keep this place interesting. Thank you all for allowing me to have threads of both natures.

So, keep it up everyone...post that incans will never die. Mod your lights and show us pictures. Show us 3 trillion luman barn burners and go on about Arc AAA lights being the "greatest lights ever made and the ONLY light anyone really needs". Get mad at Brightstar HID's (and their owners) and make fun of all the 19watt leds on Ebay. I for one can't get enough. Thank You ALL...and I REALLY mean that.
brad


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## Illum (Apr 1, 2007)

its the same with everything else....modern electronics no longer last that long because manufacturers wanted to sell or promote newer technology in the consumers realm...

as far as Armchair flashaholics goes...I'm confident to say I am guilty as charged, an unvoluntairy action we, not as a forum, but as a society have been put under, ideals and value we've once put so highly on what was once priased technology s left scattered, trampled below us. Thanks for pointing that out Carrot, I'm sure you may not be the only one who did...the old timers probably did too.

The dishearting truth lies within, the time that has passed, the eras that faded...its all part of the system. the wise have seen it, the wiser have warned of it, but in the end therese no solution


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## Robocop (Apr 2, 2007)

I actually do feel that we in general happen to have an interest in something that quickly became very popular.....unknown to many of us who would have guessed 3 years past that lights would be such a huge attraction to so many.

I think CPF fell victim to something that none of us saw coming.....popularity. I remember years back going into almost any store and checking the flashlight isles. On every visit the shelves were always full with the same old stuff as if I were the only one buying lights.....well now years later check any WalMart or Target and you find several different styles and many empty pegs. I swear sometimes I feel as if there muct be a thousand CPF members beating me to Target to get new toys. Lights are a big thing now to many and not just CPF people it seems.

Maybe this is just my situation but the way I feel is that I like ALL lights and CPF has the ability to offer me so much to choose from. Yes I have seen the hundreds of products come and go and yes I have seen the same old questions asked over and over and yes I have seen the rudeness and anger in some threads but you know what.....I still enjoy lights.....all lights.

I believe that CPF as a whole is growing and yes to this day it still interests me. As a pure light fan I honestly can appreciate all the makers and all the styles of lights. This of course is simply because I am a fanatic about lights. I think it takes a member time to learn to appreciate other lights that they may not like and some are very passionate about defending their personal tastes.

I have seen many members say things such as "been thinking about leaving" and I find myself wondering what could be so bad about CPF as to make a true flashaholic want to leave....I mean really what could do that? For me there is no way that I would deny myself the pleasure I get from this little place for nothing.

Let it ride as I know no other way to say it and to the ones who wish to leave simply over frustration I say you must not truly be here for the same reasons as myself.....and that would be cool lights and the pleasure you get from owning or simply reading about them or even dreaming of what you may be able to have someday...(McLux PD Ti...hehe)

Yes there are those who make it harder at times and financial interests have made CPF very different....I say in time this will pass and those who are not true flashaholics will weed themselves out. We should all as light freaks be happy that our interests have became so popular. Many years past I would have loved to have so many choices....it is like a kid in a candy shop.

For those who become frustrated with the drama try to focus on what it is you truly are here for......maybe buy a new toy and remember that feeling you once got over a new light....you know those days when you would run to the mailbox to find a package and quickly run back inside to shut yourself into a dark closet just to see how bright your new toy was....yes I still do that to this day and most likely will never stop.

As a true hobby type lover of lights I really do not see any reason to feel different at all over the current CPF. I believe it is what you are here for that determines how you enjoy or do not enjoy CPF......for example if I joined the board as a small maker of lights I may quickly become frustrated over the dozens of cheaper copycats however my core love of lights should remain. Yes I may not be able to sale lights to compete with the cheap copy cats but again nothing would change my basic core interest of plain old flashlights.

Take McGizmo for example....man the hours I spent on his site looking at all that cool stuff he made back in the day. He was and still is a favorite of mine however he is much more than a dealer or maker he is also a flashaholic. Sure it may be harder these days to WOW new members as again so many are being caught up in the cheaper copycat designs however if he suddenly no longer decided to sale lights I will almost bet he would still like and appreciate lights....because he is a flashaholic.

Ok so maybe I have not explained it best as I tend to be very long winded however I will say it to any who ask.....there is not anything that would take away from my personal enjoyment of CPF and if anything is able to take away from yours then maybe you are not really a true flashaholic. I am in no way saying that in a mean way but more along the lines of I know why I am here and that is all I need to know to truly be happy with CPF as well as all our other members....both new ones and old.


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## redledz (Apr 2, 2007)

I don't normally go in this portion of the forums, but I'm glad I did. Some good thoughts. Even though I have only a few posts, I've been lurking for at least a year. First I would like to say that CPF is THE most civil forum I've ever been to. Car, computer, gaming, camera, and gun forums can get ugly fast!! From your description, it sounds very much like what happened to the camera forums from my perspective. Back in 00 when the digital revolution started, forums were smaller and people talked about photography, actually taking pics. Once the market flooded with a bazillion new cameras coming out twice a yr, the race was on! Sell that 3. 5. 6. 8 megapixel camera! You know cuz you need a 12 megapixel picture that is well..bad to begin with. haha This flood also energized the brand wars, where its canon peeing on nikon, or bashing Leica etc. Then you'd see the rash of repeat questions with posters giving crazy information. Just wasn't the same anymore. Familiar faces disappeared too. It's an interesting evolution. Anyway, just wanted to say I hear you.


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## srvctec (Apr 3, 2007)

Robocop said:


> *snip*
> I think CPF fell victim to something that none of us saw coming.....popularity. I remember years back going into almost any store and checking the flashlight isles. On every visit the shelves were always full with the same old stuff as if I were the only one buying lights.....well now years later check any WalMart or Target and you find several different styles and many empty pegs. I swear sometimes I feel as if there muct be a thousand CPF members beating me to Target to get new toys. Lights are a big thing now to many and not just CPF people it seems.
> 
> Maybe this is just my situation but the way I feel is that I like ALL lights and CPF has the ability to offer me so much to choose from. Yes I have seen the hundreds of products come and go and yes I have seen the same old questions asked over and over and yes I have seen the rudeness and anger in some threads but you know what.....I still enjoy lights.....all lights.
> ...



This pretty much sums my feelings up in a nutshell- especially the first quoted paragraph. I thought I was the only person in the whole world that loved lights. I've loved lights since I was a little kid. I'd go spend my allowance on a new light, with better and cooler features than the last one. I remember one of my favorite lights ever was the first military style angle head light I got when I was 8 or 10 years old. It had a momentary/slide switch and I thought it was the light to end all lights. I still get that way when an innovative light comes out. I don't have to have it, but I can still appreciate it.

Then I found CPF a few years ago (lurked for quite some time before joining up). Holy cow, there are LOTS of people who have the same exact interests about lights as I do! I have never been involved with a forum on the net for even a fraction of the time I've been with CPF. It's one of the greatest forums ever and sure it changes, but that's life. It'd get pretty boring if things never changed at all.


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## cerbie (Apr 3, 2007)

Disclaimer: I can't help but ramble, it just happens. I make no apology for rambling, nor shall I be in any way held responsible for your lost time, and possibly boredome, attempting to read my ramble.

I'm less an addict or collector than a lover of advancing technology and good tools (not that there's anything wrong with that--I've got a whole stack of RPG books I've practically never used, and too many dice; but like them and want more, even the ones I don't actually use, all the same!).

LEDs really turned me on to thinking about portable lights in ways I hadn't before. I'd caught CPF a few years back, before Arc went under, but didn't lurk much. The idea of a nice bright (everything's relative ) light I could carry and use that didn't need a battery swap every 10 minutes grew in my mind. It's very much like finally having a multitool; amazing, and more useful than you ever thought possible, because you were stuck in awkward pocket knife mode.

I have noticed an increasing amount of, "what to buy for $xx," (as opposed to like, "what to buy for a newb's EDC," or "or what to buy for my work?") and "cheap bright thing at this store," and try to stay away from them, unless they get very active (then it's sometimes entertaining). I want to read more about why what you have is good, why it isn't doing what you need, how it made itself worthy, why this other one might do better, etc.. In fact, it was not until this thread that I realized Carrot was such a new member...'cause all the other old ones act like him. I've read every single one of his collected stories, too. I have little more interesting than night-time walks and a few power outages for my own lights .

It is kind of annoying to see throw and brightness at the cost of all else, and the hype going to lights that don't seem like they're any value at all. When I actually go to use mine, my Arc overshadows even the first other light I'm really happy with, the L1D-CE. I can access it quickly with my off-hand, do what I need, and put it and my keys back quickly and easily; and it has taken more damage than I thought possible. Even as outdated and expensive for the performance as it was when I bought it, it has been a bargain and a half, and I feel frustrated that I spent the time and money I did trying to find an AA light before the Crees came (and since it would just become a open-mouth-insert-foot rant, I have and will continue to hold my tongue on all but the Fenixes, since the 2 1/2 of those I've had have been nice little lights). If I can hold my will (when saying I'm not an addict, I'm not saying I'm immune to something new and cool that pulls an electric current!), I think I'll stick it out for what Gransee has waiting. No promises, of course...  

Anyway...it did show me what qualities were actually useful, and *gasp* more lumens helps, but isn't a decent end. And then, this does help work into one part of what's going on: technology is moving along well enough that you don't have to get quality to get bright, so more lumens can now *be* and end in itself for a light.

So, people who just want to buy move in. Now, it's fine to buy and leave alone, it's good to ask what you should buy if you're not sure; but how many threads have there been in the last couple months asking whether to get a new Fenix? Now, pros and cons of 1xAA v. 2xAA v. 1x123 , FI, have real value, but not, "should I get this?" or "wow, this is awesome!" (after the first 20 threads of that, anyway). We know it's awesome. Put it in an already active thread. The question's been answered; look back through a couple pages of the forum you just posted in. It seems like a lot of lusting and bragging, and I'll freely admit that's why I'd made a point of talking about the flaws of mine, because I see so little of it (beyond some folks getting duds, that is). Flavor of the Month syndrome at its best. It happens everywhere at some point.

That's what happens. Everyone will have to deal with it, exactly how hams and early computer hobbyists handled massive integration, products that Just Work™, etc.. How is that? In whatever way can keep the interest alive for ya, and makes the community enjoyable for you.

P.S. Wait, pictures of Sasha? You mean that's a real person? :nana:
P.P.S. :rock: 20 more stories collected by Carrot.


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## Illum (Oct 21, 2009)

this needs to be fresh on peoples minds again....:shrug:


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## qip (Oct 21, 2009)

270winchester said:


> thread types that grind my gears:
> 
> "help, I'm addicted, pay attention to me"
> 
> ...




2 years & nothings changed


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## carrot (Oct 21, 2009)

Thanks Illum, I just reread it.


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## Boudreaux (Oct 21, 2009)

*ILLUM, THANK YOU!*

Having only the time to read the first twenty posts, I now understand how little I actually know. I also now understand why some members have reacted to me in the way they have, both positively and negatively. I believe that this thread is as relavent today as it ever has been. I do plan to read the rest of the thread.

My favorite example is when reading a few days ago what the * stood for by ones name. How backwards I thought, the * should stand for how many posts one has read. Yet for some unknown reason I fell in with the pack, foolishly posted and bragged about upping my count.

My Dad had a saying ( I'm not sure where he stole it from but I do know that it was stolen) that went something like this -- 

It is better to be silent and thought a fool rather than opening one's mouth and proving it.

At least once here on CPF (one incident especially) and many other times in my life, I have proven myself!

Merci,
boudreaux


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## TooManyGizmos (Oct 22, 2009)

.
Better to remain silent and appear stupid , than to open your mouth and remove all doubt .


was that it ?
.


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## LEDobsession (Oct 22, 2009)

Wow, a lot of posts here so I only had time to read a handful of the first few. Great topic. I feel that my lights are very well suited to my needs. I do not own a thousand flashlights or even 20 Surefires (admittedly, not even one) nor do I need them. I would like a surefire, but just to see if they will live up to their hype (for my purposes). Don't get me wrong, I do believe I would be what we consider a "flashaholic" but I tend to value my needs more than my wants. I have a handful of, what I consider to be nice flashlights, but Im humble enough to say that that number is less than 5. I thoroughly enjoy flashlights, as who can't stand to be without their EDC? But I usually frequent the automotive and dark room section as those are what I have a better knowledge of. Sure, I check out a bunch of others, but I can't always add much that isn't already there. So, I learn. 

I hope I didn't miss the point of this thread or detract from it in any way. :thinking:


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## TooManyGizmos (Oct 22, 2009)

.
Yeah ....... I think there's a common feeling amongst all us Flashohollics ...........


It's a God like feeling to create Light and remove the darkness .

.


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## MarNav1 (Oct 22, 2009)

I'm perfectly happy with my ML1 with a ...........Lux3???????????? A bit of sarcasm there. Good to reread carrots post. I enjoy alot of the new lights, however I cannot afford to keep up with all the new stuff.............Its that way with many things though, not just lights. I have helped and been helped by many people here, and dare I say it CPF has helped me grow as a person. Funny thing to say about a flashlight site but true. I think the workings have improved tremendously since I started. My 2 cents worth.


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## Nyctophiliac (Oct 22, 2009)

Great and thought provoking thread which heartily deserves re-reading now. Thanks Illum for the 2 year time machine and mirror!

I will hold up my hand and admit to a lot of ultimately useless purchases over the last couple of years, and also realise that this rash consumerism was at least in place before I found CPF. I have found it impossible to buy all the new lights we have available - that's a good thing!! One may buy every album from a favourite rock band - but not all albums by all bands. It's all music - some you emote with, some not.

Whatever the ins and outs and rights or wrongs of it, I feel much better with CPF than before without. 

I am not the only one who likes torches - how fantastic is that? I don't think it matters who's got what or how many.

Long live CPF, and thanks Carrot for this thought.


lovecpf


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## Crenshaw (Oct 22, 2009)

I just saw a name we all havnt seen in awhile. Anyone miss Sasha? :laughing:

Crenshaw


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## scout24 (Oct 22, 2009)

Good reading, Food for thought, and some perspective from before my time here. Thank you.


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## leukos (Oct 22, 2009)

CPF as well as this hobby and industry is a constantly evolving thing. It was a wise decision to break off the Marketplace as a separate forum. I think that helped to keep CPF a bit less commercial. I don't frequent the LED forum hardly ever just because it seems to have move of what the first post speaks to. I don't think I mind bragging rights as much as the OP, but the bragging rights have to come with a lot of DIY for me to be interested.


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## nbp (Oct 25, 2009)

This is a good thread; I haven't read the whole thing, so pardon me if some of my thoughts are repetitive. I haven't been around a LONG time, but longer at this point than Carrot was when he started this thread, so I've seen and read alot. I'd like to comment briefly on my take from both the experienced member and newbie point of view. 

*EXPERIENCED MEMBER*
Having been here almost two years, I've read many threads, and I agree with much of what carrot said. I too love the story threads and discussions about actually using lights, which all of us can relate to. Even if you are not technically savvy, such as myself, you can still contribute to those kinds of topics, which makes them very fun.

And I too grow weary of the repeat questions at times or threads about lube, why surefires are expensive, recommend me a light that's reliable/bright/made in USA for 10 dollars, etc. Many inane threads could be prevented by searching previous postings, and some maybe never ought to be started at all because they inevitably lead to bickering. I too get tired of people bashing other people for their preferences, or tearing down a manufacturer for being expensive or whatever. If you don't have something constructive to say, pass on to another topic. 

And as for people having to have the flavor of the month, well, that's not really any different than it is with tvs, cell phones, computers, cars, etc. The world as a whole is very concerned with their 'stuff'. You can't expect CPF to remain immune to it. With so many new lights coming out, such discussions are a fact of life. If we don't want to be confined to such topics, we need only start more threads of an enthusiast type to turn our attention to and ignore the 'gotta have it' threads. We are CPF, and if we want to change it, we can. 

So on those fronts, I agree with you carrot, and we should all work on getting back to enjoying the using of lights, not just the acquisition of them. 

*NEWBIE *
As a "new-ish" member here compared to some, this thread and others like it bemoaning the state of affairs around here in recent times also makes me sad, and for two reasons. 

1.) It makes it seem as though us new members are only able enjoy some watered down and inferior version of the grand CPF that once was. I think this is a fantastic forum and an amazing source of information. But to hear some older members cut it down and talk about the good old days makes a newer member feel as though since they were not here years ago, they missed out on all the best parts of CPF that now are relegated to the archives, and what they have now is just some commercialized club of materialistic showoffs. Go enjoy, if you even can, amidst all the ads and buy it now buttons. Talk like that makes me sad, because this is still a great place. 

2.) But what makes me even more sad than the thought that maybe CPF isn't what it once was and I missed my chance to enjoy the real thing, is the thought that newer members, LIKE ME, are the ones who MESSED IT UP for you. 

Just my thoughts. It's late, I hope they make sense.


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## qip (Oct 25, 2009)

its the OLD CPF at fault  they have made some custom powerful lights back in the day and soon companies lurking in here saw it and built some themselves and now we have a bunch of lights to choose from ...without cpf would fenix nitecore O-light lumapower tiablo eagletac etc exist... they created frankenstein "yes i know frank was the doctor you know what i mean "

all the lights it took hours and hours of hard work customizing before ,now they have come off an assembly line with all the bells and whistles , one would think the old cpf would be happy to see that they have been heard and have been a force in new lighting technology :thumbsup:


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## Crenshaw (Oct 25, 2009)

Im going to be a bit of a devil's advocate here....bear with me

I for one dont see the harm of discussing new lights. I dont believe in trying to one up people, but isnt it part and parcel of being a flashaholic to celebrate new ideas, and innovations that new manufacturors can come up with?

Crenshaw


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## BVH (Oct 25, 2009)

Your time here on CPF is only as good or as bad as you yourself make it. I consider myself a mid-timer having been here for about half of CPF's existence. Read and enjoy the threads you like and disregard the ones you don't and don't complain about them. I love this place every as much today as I did the first day I arrived.


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## Flying Turtle (Oct 25, 2009)

BVH said:


> Your time here on CPF is only as good or as bad as you yourself make it. I consider myself a mid-timer having been here for about half of CPF's existence. Read and enjoy the threads you like and disregard the ones you don't and don't complain about them. I love this place every as much today as I did the first day I arrived.



Couldn't have said it better.

Geoff


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## fisk-king (Mar 6, 2010)

BUMP for a good read:candle:


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## Phaserburn (Mar 6, 2010)

BVH said:


> Your time here on CPF is only as good or as bad as you yourself make it. I consider myself a mid-timer having been here for about half of CPF's existence. Read and enjoy the threads you like and disregard the ones you don't and don't complain about them. I love this place every as much today as I did the first day I arrived.



Indeed!


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## Badbeams3 (Mar 6, 2010)

I was am one of the older members... under the name kenb or kenbar (fading memory) after getting my first laptop. Learned to type here...almost. And spell real good too...well.

Anyway...I was one of the first to have a hot-rod Photon...red...man oh man...I could chat all day about the benifits of our tiny wonders. Later they came out with ones that had a on/off switch so you didn`t have to press them all the time...yep...amazing. 

You could make a comment...ask a question. And with a little luck someone might respond that same day or the next. Is a yellow Photon brighter than a red? LOL. Well don`t remember...probably still have one of each color...somewhere. But for sure yellow make things look more natural than red...I think that was one of the answer most often given...same question was asked more than once. 

No one even thought to suggest to anyone they looked in the arkives (yea...I know). We were to thrilled to have a new member.


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## Bullzeyebill (Mar 6, 2010)

Badbeams3 said:


> I was am one of the older members... under the name kenb or kenbar (fading memory) after getting my first laptop. Learned to type here...almost. And spell real good too...well.
> 
> Anyway...I was one of the first to have a hot-rod Photon...red...man oh man...I could chat all day about the benifits of our tiny wonders. Later they came out with ones that had a on/off switch so you didn`t have to press them all the time...yep...amazing.
> 
> ...



Thanks for your comment. You have been here longer than me. When I joined I was member number 3603, I believe, though numbering has changed over time. In those days we did not have much of an archive to refer new member to, but now we do, and the archive has grown to encompass thousands of threads on similar topics: we really need to refer those threads to new members by suggesting that they do some searching. It gets to be too redundant when people just keep asking the same questions, and they have not checked out the archive options available to them, and this goes for seasoned members too. The problem is that seasoned members, members who have been around for awhile, often do not refer new members to searching for their answers, allowing threads to stretch out, going over and over the same answers that are already available here on CPF. Nuture new members, and also give them some guidance.

Bill


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## derangboy (Mar 6, 2010)

Some of the changes mentioned in the first post are happening across discussion forums of all types. The media just seems to lend itself to people wanting to chat about whatever interests them at the moment and a thread last month is old news. 
If it's any consolation to long time members, I've read through many custom build threads and it has inspired me to update an old chrome 2C flashlight from my childhood. I think it came with EverReady dry cells...


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## Greta (Mar 6, 2010)

A trend that I am seeing lately that is seriously annoying me is new members coming on board and with less than 2-3 days registered and less than 5 posts, they are wanting to change things with the layout and this or that or whatever.  ... do they also go into people's houses that they've just met and start telling them how to hang their pictures and arrange their furniture and what color to paint their walls? annoying... simply annoying... :shakehead


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## ygbsm (Mar 6, 2010)

BVH said:


> Your time here on CPF is only as good or as bad as you yourself make it. I consider myself a mid-timer having been here for about half of CPF's existence. Read and enjoy the threads you like and disregard the ones you don't and don't complain about them. I love this place every as much today as I did the first day I arrived.


I agree!


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## LUPARA (Mar 8, 2010)

I'm a recent member of CPF; I like Greta's posts on this thread because there is some clear-thinking common sense going on with them and she was the first to point out the difference between "wants" and "needs" which just about covers it all for me. So, thank you Greta for maintaining some sense of balance about all this.


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## Sector7 (Mar 8, 2010)

From my observation, this just reflects a microcosm of the daily world were we see and interact with people from all attitudes of life and viewpoints. Each member here, have they own reason for this hobby that brought them here for us to share in this love of lights. Some people we can agree with and some we don't, but here we can be civil enough to agree to disagree, each member have varing degrees of knowledge(or misinformation) and opinions. As in any enviroment, common people will gravitate to each other but we shouldn't dismiss the others that don't share your viewpoints or stage of light nirvana. People come here to enjoy this hobby for whatever reason. Some members want to cut the line, some are patiently reading and learning, they are people too and perhaps we should be more tolerant of others irregardless of their mental maturity of this hobby.


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## nfetterly (Mar 8, 2010)

Well I read the first post by Carrot & then switched to this page. I joined after Carrot made the original post.

Great folks here. Lots of help - even in the weirdest areas like when I posted "hey my computer background is cropped" or "what happened to xxxxx add-in for firefox that I first read about on CPF" - very helpful community.

Okay - I'm also one of the ones that spends too much money here - but, I also use almost all of these lights in an industrial setting (pulp & paper mill - yes I have the nicest lights there). I'm trying now not to buy new lights - just upgrade hosts.... (we'll see how long that lasts).

It's a great community - I've only ran across one or two cranky folks (I was cranky one day as well, it happens). Go to the areas you like, converse with the folks you meet.


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## The Shang (Mar 8, 2010)

I have visited here for a few months before joining on 02-19-2010. So I am probably one of the newest members. I personally don't see a problem with the way things are. What is the point of having a bunch of flashlights? The better question is, why not? Does one really need a bunch of flashlights? Possibly. Only the person buying can justify that for you. It's like someone buying a Lamborghini for $250 000. Do you need a car like that? Probably not. It's more of a want than a need. But if it makes you happy then do it. People don't always buy things because they need them. The economy would be in even worse shape, if every person got exactly what they needed and nothing more. Is it a "waste" of money? To some it may be. To others it is a source of entertainment, peace of mind, or a mandatory item for survival. 

The Shang. PSlovecpf


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## JasonC8301 (Mar 9, 2010)

What a long read, LOL. I have been lurking around CPF for a while now and it happens. Change. You either fight it and get crushed or go with the flow and be happy. As mentioned earlier its what you make of it. Sure there are bad apples, but don't let those few ruin it for all. 

+1 to qip's post, lol. 

If there weren't any changes, where would Fenix, Nitecore, 47's, Surefire's LED technology, Malkoff, HDS, Novatac, Inova, Olight, and numerous other take a step foward companies be? 

Find what works for you. Glancing around, 8 years later, my SF E2e is my current EDC light with the CR2 Ion being my back-up keychain light (replaced an Arc AAA LE about 4 years ago?) Don't mind the other 15 lights in my room and the 10 spread around my house, its all apart of the fun.

Greta - WTH? Kick and ban those folks. Who in their right mind would do that? Well, make those changes on the condition that you can go into their home's and re-model to your hearts content. Just be sure to turn an entire floor of their house into a closet like Mariah Carey's triplex in Manhattan. Shoe room! haha...


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## nbp (Sep 12, 2013)

It's been a couple of years; folks should probably give this thread a read. Perhaps more applicable then ever before. Achh, I'm starting to sound like an old-timer. :huh:


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## CroMAGnet (Sep 12, 2013)

McGizmo said:


> Information overload in a time of technology evolution and revolution. The small town became a big city and the sense of community has changed to fit in with the growth and alienation which comes about when the close knit fabric is stretched to fit over the multitude. Most of us have a finite number of times we are willing to repeat a comment or thought. If this is not shared and pased on, it gets lost. Even the content of this thread here has been brought up before.
> 
> CPF is the sum and then some, of the active members at the time. Its quality is up to those willing to take the time to contribute and the quality of the content of contribution and not from those willing to only take. :shrug:


+1
I always (with rare exception) enjoyed reading McGizmo's well thought out posts. 

I remember my very first day I got a "Welcome to CPF. Hope you stay a while." It was a nice welcome. I remember McGizmo moving from Berkeley to Hawaii. I hope that worked out. I remember gushing over his colored Alephs, which I still own. I remember when carrot and GreenLED started here. I remember the Mr. Bulk battle and the drama. I remember the fun times and BBQs with ModaMag, and big JimH, the Draco designing. All those custom parts and our enthusiasm! I remember incessantly bugging AW for a smaller battery... and finally getting the 10280 which spawned the Draco. Oh and the very first flashlight to start fires! The USL! Still got that. The designing projects were awesome to participate. So many models.

I miss the comraderie. People from all over Northern California came to my house for a get-together. It was epic! We had many thousands of dollars in lights in the house. I remember thinking that one of the most powerful ones may burn down my neighbors house from the beam! Star Trek kinda stuff, really. Check the link in my sigline if you want. I remember National Geographic doing a special with us CPF'rs and we brought a M1A1 tank light and they shot video while we all marched around with our lights on the hill LOL. And LowBat and a bunch of us went on epic night hikes. I mean epic! And day hikes and caves too.

Sadly I hardly get much response to my posts since getting back into it, after being away for a few years. Pro'ly just need to do as McGizmo says, start to contribute and help out our community again, and make some new friends. 

Cheers to you Carrot


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## Norm (Sep 12, 2013)

I've been here long enough to see the changing times here on CPF, to me it mirrors closely one of my other hobbies, Amateur Radio, when I was first licensed thirty years ago it was all about building your own gear and modifying commercial equipment, it's no different here. It makes little sense to build what can be bought commercially for less money. High end flashlights are no longer the preserve of those with enough skill and equipment to roll their own, or enough cash to purchase a custom light from one of our many talented members. All it takes is a very minimal amount of cash to invest in a mega light from one of the multitude of commercial builders.

Norm


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## zespectre (Sep 12, 2013)

I agree (mostly) with what you say Norm, and *CroMAGnet* makes me think back to the "flashlight passarounds" that used to happen. I mean, it really said something about the community back then that people would gather and ship several hundred dollars worth of illumination tools to a relative stranger who would play and then ship them on to the next and so forth. As far as I know nobody ever lost a light doing that either. I think ONE got damaged and the person involved felt terrible and replaced it immediately. Would that happen now? I have no idea.

On the other hand, I see people doing tests and graphs and diagnostics that make my early attempts look embarrassingly crude so at least some folks are still putting in effort to the community. In fact they are creating SO MUCH information that I revamped my "Real World Review" format and dumped most of the technical details just so I wasn't re-hashing well known data...again <grin>.


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## Bullzeyebill (Sep 12, 2013)

Over time I have come to the conclusion that I will buy mostly from our CPF modders and builders. People like Gene Malkoff included; McGizmo, Enrique, PhotonFanatic, TnC, Jacon, and others. I seldom buy "commercial flashlights", except some Surefire's ever so often. I'm not into the biggest brightest, newest model. Yes, the trend on CPF does seem to be oriented toward the "latest stuff", and I can see why CPF'ers are moving that way. Just not me. Mostly I like the the information that CPF provides.

Bill

Bill


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## harro (Sep 13, 2013)

> I've been here long enough to see the changing times here on CPF, to me it mirrors closely one of my other hobbies, Amateur Radio, when I was first licensed thirty years ago it was all about building your own gear and modifying commercial equipment


Sorry, the quote text belongs to Norm.
I can remember standing round my uncle's ham setup ( VK3AYD-SK sadly ) back then, in awe of being able to listen to someone from halfway round the world, and thinking ' this is as good as it gets !! '. FYI Norm, he ran all Yaseau, pumping out 400 'legal' watts from the linear, into a four element yagi about 80' off the ground, and worked all the common bands. 10/15/20/40M etc. Later on, he found it more of a challenge getting into Indonesia on 2 watts and a wire thrown up into a tree, on the key. Good ol. days.


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## Norm (Sep 13, 2013)

harro said:


> Sorry, the quote text belongs to Norm.


No apology needed 

Norm


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## scout24 (Sep 13, 2013)

Not an old timer, but I've been here long enough to see more than a bit of change. Ti PD-S's and Spy 005's used to fly around BST like candy, P4 LED's were rockin', MC-E's were new... An ML1 up for sale was gobbled up fast enough to cause whiplash... You could still buy an A2 Aviator without a payment plan, and Surefire designed and sold lights I personally like a lot more than their new offerings. I remember buying my first couple customs and thinking this was CRAZY!!!  You old timers were helpful to this enthusiastic New Guy who read more than he posted, believe it or not. The courtesy and civility I found here should stand as an example for the rest of the internet, with rare exception. Thank you to the Admins and Mods for keeping it that way. I hope this thread is still on the first page ten years from now.


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## CroMAGnet (Sep 17, 2013)

Hehe. I just found this kewl old pic of golden Alephs and blue swirl Alephs and a gold Draco.


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## Ruislip (Sep 18, 2013)

My first and perhaps only post. I just wanted to thank the Forum for the advice available here. I have not bought a new flashlight/torch for years, but there is a bit of talk in the Uk about worse than usual power cuts this Winter, so I decided it might be time to enter the 21st century. The lights I had been using most were a Petzl Tikka XP, a Maglite 2xAAA [incandescent], and a Maglite 2xAA [incandescent]. I initially started by looking for LED upgrades for the Maglites, and bought a Terralux Led upgrade for the AAA, and a terralux Led + reflector for the AA. That led me into the amazing advances in Led lights I had not been aware of. I decided I needed a new utility torch, and bought a Fenix MC10 cheap [half the price of the MC11], and yes I was aware of the static electricity problem. By then I was hooked on Leds. As a result of posts here I have now got a Fenix LD22 G2, and an Inova X1. I think that just about sets me up for most of what might happen. 

I have a lot of experience with satellite navigation forums, and the thoughts here about the good old days, much reflect the goings on in those forums. It used to be we'd swap ideas for software fixes and bits of additional programming. Now satnavs are so much more sophisticated, you are moreorless left with what the manufacturer produces with little chance of any personalisation. So you are doing good, but it probably feels that a lot has been lost. How come progress does not feel better? I'll keep an eye on CPF for reports on more progress. Once again my thanks.


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## Bullzeyebill (Sep 18, 2013)

You've picked an LED flashlight (Fenix LD22 G2) that can take 2X AA's. Invest in an AA NiMh charger and you are set to go when you power is out.


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## Ruislip (Sep 19, 2013)

You said it. I also took the advice about eneloops.......


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## cbm (Nov 6, 2013)

I'm also a total noob here, who also recently bought a Fenix LD 22 as my first "serious" flashlight. I'm still reading various threads here to get a feel for the place, but I'm glad this forum exists, if only as a place that I can point my wife to, to show her that I'm not nearly as flashlight-crazy as some people.


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