# High altitude expediton in extreme cold. Grateful for suggestions.



## Mattia5 (Nov 29, 2011)

Hi dear forummembers,
Going to Aconcagua in february and need a headlamp that is light and able to withstand extreme cold. 
Will not have acces to a charger and would prefer a batterytype where the lithiumbatteries are reasonably cheap, not looking for rechargable ones. 
Do extreme cold affect lithiumbatteries so I would need to have them beneth the jacket when on?
//Mattia5


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## Outdoorsman5 (Nov 29, 2011)

I do a lot of camping hiking, hunting, & fishing and love the enjoyment my lights add to these trips. I have not taken a trip like you are going on in a long long time, so I cannot give you advice from experience because I have not used the lights I'm going to recommend in those type of conditions.....yet. I do have a lot of experience with lights though. If I were taking a trip like yours then I'd take a head light with a separate battery pack like the Fenix HP20 as my primary headlight. It runs on 4 AA batteries with excellent runtimes, output options, waterproof (IPX-8 standard), and is a good quality light. You can run lithium primary batteries in it which are great for cold temperatures, and can also keep the battery pack in your pocket for added protection. 

I'd also take a small back up headlight as well, running on the same battery type. I'd recommend a Zebralight H51 or H51w (neutral tint.) These lights run on a single AA battery, and run well on lithium batteries. Best UI around, super efficient with great runtimes, plenty bright, waterproof (IPX-8 standard,) and durable. Because of it's light weight and UI, this light may be your primary around camp.

Also, I'd have a handheld light in my pocket as well. For me it'd be my Quark AA using a lithium AA battery as well. Solid light with a good UI, great output levels, & excellent build quality. 

All three lights use the same battery type, and I think you'd be well covered with any or all three of these lights....but take at least three lights & plenty of batteries.


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## Mattia5 (Nov 29, 2011)

Thanks Outdoorsman,
One issue with the Fenix HP20 is weight, 260grams excluding batteries. Love the design though. A lot of people will probably use the Myo XP belt that is 220grams with batteries. Are there other lamps with seperate battery packs?
Regarding H51, how would it work exposed to -30? 
Also I would love to bring a spare but because of weightissues I cant. 
//Mattias


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## Outdoorsman5 (Nov 29, 2011)

You're right about the weight, and I forgot about the Myo. Looks like a great light. 

Another light with a separate battery pack is the Princeton Tec Apex (four AA batteries,) but weighs in at 279 grams....or the lighter Apex Pro (two CR123 lithium batteries) & weighs in at only 173 grams. I don't own either of these lights though, so cannot comment with experience.

I don't know how the H51 would perform in -30 degree temps....sorry. Hopefully someone can chime in here.

I understand the weight issues, but I'd still have a backup of some sort even if it were a small AAA light like a fenix or a quark or an Olight. Or even a small AA light like a quark AA, or a quark mini AA, or a zebralight H51 or the SC51, or a fenix LD10 or others. The rule to carrying critical equipment is 1 = 0, 2 = 1, and 3 = 2. I've had lights fail before, and once at the most inopportune time. I'd hate to be in -30 degree weather, and have my only light fail.


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## kevinm (Nov 29, 2011)

The Myo belt is a good choice, though I'd worry a bit about the plastic becoming brittle at that temperature. The Zebralight H501w and H51w would be great choices, running on Energizer lithium primaries (lighter than normal AA's, have higher energy density, and work better in the cold). The Spark ST5's would also be great choices. I've used both for caving; tough lights. Also, both are light enough that you could bring two for the weight of one of the Myo's.

If you choose something that runs on AA's everyone will be using the same batteries; handy on an expedition.


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## Bolster (Nov 29, 2011)

Is there a benefit to choosing a plastic as opposed to a metal headlamp for very cold conditions? Just curious.


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## carrot (Nov 30, 2011)

I would go for the Petzl Myo. First, it's a Petzl, so you know it'll be rock-solid reliable. Second, it is designed for exactly what your uses are: mountaineering. The external battery pack will let you place the pack deep inside your jacket where it will be warm. I'd be wary of taking other lights that aren't necessarily designed in this fashion (with an external pack) in extreme cold weather. Most electronics do alright in cold climes but batteries do not, even lithiums.


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## robostudent5000 (Nov 30, 2011)

problem with the Myo Belt is it doesn't take lithiums. body heat in extreme cold might be insufficient to keep alkalines warm enough to work right unless the pack was right up against the body, which is impractical. i'd look for something regulated with a battery pack that can take lithiums.

the BD Storm may be worth a look too. it can run on lithiums and has a heatsink that extends into the battery compartment to heat it up a little. 

Zebra H31 might be an option as well. Aluminum maintains its strength in the cold, and the heat generated by the LED might keep the battery warm enough to survive the low temps.


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## borrower (Nov 30, 2011)

Interesting that the Myo Belt isn't rated for lithiums... the Myo RXP is rated for lithiums, and it wouldn't be too much work with a soldering iron to put an extension cable in place.

To the OP: I'd seriously reconsider the idea of only bringing one light. If in doubt, ask your guide's advice. You might get some more experience-based advice on mountaineering/climbing specific forums re: alkalines next to the body (as lithiums might be hard to find down south). Again, your guide would be a good source of advice.


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## Outdoorsman5 (Nov 30, 2011)

That's one of the dumbest things I've seen in a while.......I can't believe the Myo Belt isn't rated for lithiums. I just looked it up on their chart, and sure enough there it is. This light is designed for the extreme cold, but Petzl didn't have the foresight to have the light run on lithiums........very strange, hope they have a good reason for this. Still it does appear to be one of the better choices for your trip; just keep the battery pack warm at all times.

After you ask around, regarding the advice on taking a backup light, I bet you will end up taking one. I'd still recommend a Zebralight H51 or H51w which only weigh in at 2.51 oz. with a lithium battery and headband (2.2 oz. for the light, .51 oz. for the lithium battery, and .8 oz. for the headband)....well worth the weight IMO. I sure would like to hear you report back on how it performed. 

I'd still take a third light (a really small one that uses a AAA lithium battery) like a fenix LD01 or a Olight i3 (which used to be called an "ITP A3 EOS") these lights weigh less than an ounce with a lithium battery....again worth the weight IMO.

I understand shaving off every ounce on a big trip like this where you are packing it all in, and would understand the decision to not take 3 lights. But, I feel that it would be too risky to take only one.


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## Mattia5 (Nov 30, 2011)

Thanks for all the great answers!

Apex Pro seems very interesting indeed. The batterypack is on back so I can have it under my hood not leaving it so exposed. The weight is good. Batteries are cheap at about one euro a pop if you buy 10.


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## robostudent5000 (Nov 30, 2011)

Mattia5 said:


> Thanks for all the great answers!
> 
> Apex Pro seems very interesting indeed. The batterypack is on back so I can have it under my hood not leaving it so exposed. The weight is good. Batteries are cheap at about one euro a pop if you buy 10.



one thing about the Apex Pro... the runtimes are pretty poor. the longest running mode only gives you about 10 lumens for 12 hours of light. the more useful mid modes only last 5-7 hours. and other than the low battery indicator light, which can come on uselessly early, there isn't much warning before the light cuts out.

after thinking about it, i'd try to find a good deal on AA lithiums and take a Petzl Myo RXP2 and a Zebra H51w as a pair. use the H51w in conditions above freezing, and the Myo RXP 2 under the hood for conditions below freezing with the H51w as an emergency backup. the combined weight for the pair with lithium batteries should be close to the the weight of one Myo Belt with alkalines. 

the options for CR123 headlamps are just very limited.


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## Outdoorsman5 (Dec 1, 2011)

Hey, it looks like the battery pack on the Petzl Myo RXP can be removed and placed in a jacket pocket as well. Am I right? If so, then I'd go this route since it accepts 3 AA lithium batteries, and has 3 output levels that are programmable.....nice. At only 175g it looks to be a better option not to mention having the build quality of a Petzl.


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## f22shift (Dec 1, 2011)

kevinm said:


> The Myo belt is a good choice, though I'd worry a bit about the plastic becoming brittle at that temperature. The Zebralight H501w and H51w would be great choices, running on Energizer lithium primaries (lighter than normal AA's, have higher energy density, and work better in the cold). The Spark ST5's would also be great choices. I've used both for caving; tough lights. Also, both are light enough that you could bring two for the weight of one of the Myo's.
> 
> If you choose something that runs on AA's everyone will be using the same batteries; handy on an expedition.



if you end up choosing between a st5 vs h501(or h51s i'm assuming), get the spark. 
i own both and have tested with a low alkaline cell. i tested both after carrot's informative real world feedback on his own zebralight(trouble starting on a low cell).

the zebralight doesn't light up. the st5 can run on the low output. this an alkaline cell approaching depletion. as much as i like zebralights ui and design aesthetics, i don't think i would rely on one in an extreme situation with limited power sources.


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## Outdoorsman5 (Dec 1, 2011)

f22shift said:


> if you end up choosing between a st5 vs h501(or h51s i'm assuming), get the spark.
> i own both and have tested with a low alkaline cell. i tested both after carrot's informative real world feedback on his own zebralight(trouble starting on a low cell).
> 
> the zebralight doesn't light up....



Carrot was using a Zebralight H31Fw powered by a CR123. For some reason that light would not turn back on when voltage dropped to a certain level, and seems to be a design flaw of the H31 series of lights. The H51 series of lights (powered by a single AA) do not behave that way (as was stated in that thread.) In my test (and others) the H51 steps down when the light falls out of regulation & voltage drops to very low levels. It steps down to the second high then medium 1 then to medium 2 then low 1 then to low 2 (and actually ran on low for a very long time in my test.) Also, there was no issue with the light not being able to turn back on when the voltage dropped as was experienced with the H31 series of lights. The H31 series of lights apparently have a high start up voltage. When the battery is depleted to a certain level the voltage can get to a point where the light works fine one minute, you then turn it off, but when you try to turn it back on it won't because the start up voltage is higher than what's left in the battery....not good. Luckily the H51 series of lights do not have this same problem, and the light gently fades as the battery nears depletion.


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## NoFair (Dec 1, 2011)

I'd very seriously consider the Princeton Tec Apex. The Apex was used for a Norwegian winter trip to the North Pole and should do fine. The Extreme has a long cable and a large battery pack. Runtime using lithium AAs should be very good. Make sure you get the newest 200 lumen version since the older models are still in some shops. 

I'd also get a spare smaller lighter flashlight/headlamp as a spare/back up.


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## Mattia5 (Dec 1, 2011)

Thats great, this site is so informative. Thanks for all the input. 

The Pretzl Myo RXP seems to be the best in the bunch yet. Will bring two or three sets of lithiumbatteries, ie 6 or 9, saving one fresh set for summitday. 

As RoboStudent5000 pointed out the runtime is a little bit short with the apex pro. One more thing is that it doesnt have really low output ie for finding things in your tent in the middle of the night or reading. 

The weight is really an issue and it isnt just that Im lazy, with everything I bring I consider the weight, I even myself will loose 5kg beforehand to not have to carry so much to the top. It is really hard to explain, the best would probably be imagine yourreslf being your aunt or grandpa with heartfailure walking upp the highest mountain in your area. That is how you feel when up high.
Thats also the reason why I won´t bring a spare, that weight will go to my kindle.


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## kevinm (Dec 1, 2011)

Any chance you can spend a few days at high altitude before this expedition? I live in CO and have done a lot of hiking and bushwhacking above 10,000ft. A couple of days at any high altitude makes a world of difference!

Also, I cave up there. Space and weight are always at a premium. I'd leave a the Kindle or a pair of socks at home before I'd go with one light.


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## robostudent5000 (Dec 1, 2011)

Mattia5 said:


> Thats also the reason why I won´t bring a spare, that weight will go to my kindle.



i've never been above 4,000 m, so i won't pretend to know what it's like at almost 7,000 m. but i would still bring a backup. a small 1xAA twisty like an Olight i2 only weighs 20 grams, about the weight of one AA battery. that's not much for some peace of mind.


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## borrower (Dec 1, 2011)

Outdoorsman5 said:


> Hey, it looks like the battery pack on the Petzl Myo RXP can be removed and placed in a jacket pocket as well. Am I right? If so, then I'd go this route since it accepts 3 AA lithium batteries, and has 3 output levels that are programmable.....nice. At only 175g it looks to be a better option not to mention having the build quality of a Petzl.



You'd have to snip the cable and solder in connectors. Then you could either just connect them, and have the unit function as normal, or put an extension cable in for remote use. Magicshine cables from DX are pretty cheap and cheery.


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## f22shift (Dec 2, 2011)

Outdoorsman5 said:


> Carrot was using a Zebralight H31Fw powered by a CR123. For some reason that light would not turn back on when voltage dropped to a certain level, and seems to be a design flaw of the H31 series of lights. The H51 series of lights (powered by a single AA) do not behave that way (as was stated in that thread.) In my test (and others) the H51 steps down when the light falls out of regulation & voltage drops to very low levels. It steps down to the second high then medium 1 then to medium 2 then low 1 then to low 2 (and actually ran on low for a very long time in my test.) Also, there was no issue with the light not being able to turn back on when the voltage dropped as was experienced with the H31 series of lights. The H31 series of lights apparently have a high start up voltage. When the battery is depleted to a certain level the voltage can get to a point where the light works fine one minute, you then turn it off, but when you try to turn it back on it won't because the start up voltage is higher than what's left in the battery....not good. Luckily the H51 series of lights do not have this same problem, and the light gently fades as the battery nears depletion.



thanks for the correction. i don't want to spread misinformation. i assumed the h501 and h51 would use the same circuit(both 1aa) with different methods to project the beam.
ok. so the h501 sounds similar to the h31. it doesn't start up with a low cell where a st5 can. h51 sounds okay though.


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## TedTheLed (Dec 2, 2011)

..Zebra made the first few sc600 without "step regulation" (as they call it) too! 
I posted about how disconcerting it was to have light suddenly blink out in the dark, and not coming on again no matter
how many times you pressed the button.
Seems the only 'cure' is to unscrew the battery cap a turn and retighten it, then turn on the light by holding the button down half a second so it doesn't go to the brightest settting (or else it will just blink off again) -- and it will stay on for hours on the lower settings..
Could this be the same problem you're having with the h31fw? 
..and get this; Zebra refuses to exchange the flashlight for one with the 'dim down' feature! "against company policy" they said..phu-ie!


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## Mr Bigglow (Dec 2, 2011)

Ditto on the Petzl Myo Belt. You won't need lithiums with that unit, and if you were to get so cold inside your parka as to require those, you'll be having worse problems than with your headlamp. Plastic won't freeze to skin like metal will, to answer another question, and I've used plastic down to -40 or so with out breakage problems- esp with anything attached to my warm head. If you're going really extreme, I recommend you get a second battery pack- any fine motor task is fraught in extreme cold but with a spare preloaded, you can switch them around more easily than changing batteries and that's for sure.


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## JoVo (Dec 2, 2011)

robostudent5000 said:


> Zebra H31 might be an option as well. Aluminum maintains its strength in the cold, and the heat generated by the LED might keep the battery warm enough to survive the low temps.



Well, Aluminum has very good thermal conduction which means in this extreme case:
temperature outside = temperature inside the battery compartment
If you touch the Aluminum housing with bare hands you risk immediate freezing to the metal.

I really like my H31 but I don't think it's suitable for this task.


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## robostudent5000 (Dec 2, 2011)

JoVo said:


> Well, Aluminum has very good thermal conduction which means in this extreme case:
> temperature outside = temperature inside the battery compartment
> If you touch the Aluminum housing with bare hands you risk immediate freezing to the metal.
> 
> I really like my H31 but I don't think it's suitable for this task.



conduction works both ways though. the heat from the emitter would get the AL body up in temp at least a little. maybe not enough to compensate at 40 below plus windchill, but probably enough for the battery to operate normally at outside temps a little below its normal practical operating range (this number seems to vary based on who you talk to, but a lot of folks seem to have used lithium primaries down to at least -20 C with no problems). 

still, as i said in a subsequent post, i probably would use a headlamp with a battery pack in the really cold temps and save the Zebra for backup duty.


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## kevinm (Dec 6, 2011)

Myo XP on Steep and Cheap right now for $50!


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## Hooked on Fenix (Dec 7, 2011)

No to the Myo XP. Many of you might not remember this but I do. The Myo XP had some issues with shorting out and catching people's hair on fire when the wire got worn through. Instead of fixing the problem, they sent owners stickers that said alkaline batteries only. Alkaline batteries have too much resistance to cause shorts and set things on fire, unlike NiMH and lithium batteries. How they dealt with these safety issues convinced me to never buy one of their headlights with external wires. You people want to suggest a light that is known to start fires when using lithium batteries for a guy that needs to use lithium batteries? I don't think he'll be that desperate to keep warm.

Go with a Princeton Tec light. Any decent one will run on lithiums (AA, AAA, or 123A). The Apex, Apex Pro, Apex Extreme, Corona, EOS, Remix Pro, or Quad will work.


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## borrower (Dec 7, 2011)

Hooked on Fenix said:


> No to the Myo XP. Many of you might not remember this but I do. The Myo XP had some issues with shorting out and catching people's hair on fire when the wire got worn through. Instead of fixing the problem, they sent owners stickers that said alkaline batteries only. Alkaline batteries have too much resistance to cause shorts and set things on fire, unlike NiMH and lithium batteries. How they dealt with these safety issues convinced me to never buy one of their headlights with external wires. You people want to suggest a light that is known to start fires when using lithium batteries for a guy that needs to use lithium batteries? I don't think he'll be that desperate to keep warm.
> 
> Go with a Princeton Tec light. Any decent one will run on lithiums (AA, AAA, or 123A). The Apex, Apex Pro, Apex Extreme, Corona, EOS, Remix Pro, or Quad will work.


 
I understand and respect your position, but current MYOs have a strain relief at the head and the RXP that most people here are recommending is certified to take lithiums.


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## DM51 (Dec 7, 2011)

A plastic bodied light would be preferable to a metal one, for reasons already mentioned (your skin would freeze to the metal). If you use a battery pack with a cable/lead to the light head, make sure the cable is silicone rubber coated, not regular PVC coated. At extreme low temperature PVC and other plastics freeze hard, become brittle and snap easily. Silicone rubber cable does not suffer from this.


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## Hooked on Fenix (Dec 8, 2011)

borrower said:


> I understand and respect your position, but current MYOs have a strain relief at the head and the RXP that most people here are recommending is certified to take lithiums.



Thank you borrower for being so understanding and not taking my rant personally. If I offended anyone, I apologize. My intention wasn't to insult anyone for suggesting the Myo XP but only to protect the OP from what I understood to be a dangerous product for his situation. If they have fixed the safety issues with the Myo XP, that's great. Personally, I still wouldn't recommend it since it isn't certified to run on lithiums, which the OP absolutely has to use. However, the Myo XP Belt may work if the battery pack can be kept warm in a jacket (though this may not be possible at the temp. the OP may be using it in). The RXP could work since it is certified for lithiums. I still like the Princeton Tec lights for this situation. I have used them for years and I have never had one fail on me in the field. The one advantage I have seen of the Petzls over Princeton Tec lights is stronger plastic in the lights which will make them more durable and last longer. In the end, I guess there is no perfect light for this situation so I guess the OP will have to decide by which of these features are most important to him:cost, availability, weight, durability, runtime, brightness, efficiency, water resistance, battery compatibility, type of plastic the light is made from , how much space it takes up in a pack, regulation vs. slowly dimming, constant current vs. Pulse Width Modulation (flickering), e.t.c. 

I'd also like to add that the OP should bring more than one light. Two is one and one is none. Any light can fail in the field whether it's a Petzl, Princeton Tec, Surefire, or a cheapo light from the dollar store. Take at least two lights. It doesn't have to be another headlight. Take a handheld as a spare. Even backpacking up Mt. Whitney, I took three lights. A PT EOS headlight, a Fenix P3D Q5, and a Fenix EO1. The headlight for most uses; the P3D for signaling, route finding, and a full brightness backup light; and the EO1 for battery changes and an emergency long running backup. Total weight was around 7 ounces with batteries. If a headlight doesn't have everything you need, supplement it with something that fills it those gaps.


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## perfor8 (Dec 8, 2011)

I suggest you wear long underwear; can't believe everybody else missed that.


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## Mattia5 (Dec 9, 2011)

Haha, I certanly will. Live in Sweden and we are on the same lattitude as Alaska.


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## Outdoorsman5 (Dec 9, 2011)

Hey Mattia5,

Have you decided what you will take?

Also, don't forget to update this thread after your trip in Feb. We'd all love to hear how it went, and how your equipment performed.


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## Gregozedobe (Dec 10, 2011)

I just read an ad for boots with a built-in heater powered by rechargeable batteries - that might be nice in snow and ice


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