# Cave Exploring Headlamp List - regularly updated, includes tech specs



## Mooreshire

^v^ ^v^ ^v^​ 
Caving is a sport undertaken in complete darkness which requires free use of one's hands; so every cave explorer must use a headlamp. In a cave your ability to see is keeping you alive, and caving involves unimaginable conditions and obstacles - so the headlamp you use must be as durable and reliable as possible. This is my attempt at making and maintaining a comprehensive list of proven, bright, and readily available caving appropriate headlamps. I plan to update and maintian the list as the market continues to move forward. Please feel free to share the list elsewhere.

This is the link to the list (in the form of a Google Documents spreadsheet):
http://goo.gl/n3xhD

*The guidelines:
*

_Proven_ - to be considered for this list multiple cave explorers must report that they happily and regularly use the model in question as their main light. 
_Bright _- headlamps producing less than 200 lumens will not be considered. 
_Available _- only non-generic headlamps with proper model identification which are currently readily available on the English language mail-order market will be considered. 

The first version of this list was written in October of 2012 and posted on several small caving forums/groups. By the end of November 2012 it had been shared (by me or others) on more than a dozen websites and online groups. I have already received feedback and corrections from explorers, distributors, and manufacturers from as far away as Croatia, New Zealand, England, and Switzerland.* I welcome feedback, suggestions, and corrections! *(Replying to this thread should be just as effective as emailing me directly.)

This list is not meant to endorse any one lamp or manufacturer, nor does it claim to contain sufficient information for deciding on the best model for you - it is only intended as a starting point for someone researching the current caving headlamp market.

If link-shorteners scare you then this is the full long format link: 
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Aq_1dPxvBnXUdHZTckszcW1kcXZoSGh0OUhiYWdxX3c​ 
_Know of any I've missed? See any errors? Think of a way it could be (realistically) improved? Find anything confusing? Please let me know!
_


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## Mooreshire

I do still need help confirming or finding numerous bits of the information:


pretty much all of the "_exposed materials_" info (much of it was guess work, especially cables which are all listed as Nylon) 
_release dates_ (where missing or inaccurate) 
beam angle measurements (see below) 
personal accounts of _lowest runtime_ (where missing or inaccurate) 

Current plans/ideas for improvement:


maybe add a _F.A.Q._ or Info tab containing
more detailed description of each column 
explanation of IP rating system 
explain my criteria for "readily available", etc. 
 
hotspot/spill "_beam angle_" measurements 
"_user serviceability_" (_novice/skilled/master_ ? or maybe_ lens, cable, etc._ ?)


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## N10

headlamps made by littlemonkey, lupine and silva should be up on the list..


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## Mooreshire

N10 said:


> headlamps made by littlemonkey, lupine and silva should be up on the list..



Thanks for the suggestions, N10!

I've been told that the lovely Rude Nora (Littlemonkey's light, currently unavailable) will be available again soon, so it will definitely be on the list once it comes back on the market. (Sir Lord John Biffington III has a new CustomDuo module on its way too.)

Silva only has two headlamps (from what I can tell) that would meet the brightness requirements - the Sprint (and Sprint Plus), and the slightly fragile looking halogen powered XCL. I had previously concluded that they weren't readily available, but I am now seeing one single UK retailer offering international shipping. I'd love to add the Sprint to the list - first I'll try and confirm that they have been underground without issue. (I've never seen one.)

Lupine seems to have three appropriate models, the Piko, the Betty, and the Wilma. I haven't seen any of those underground either but that doesn't mean they shouldn't be on the list if I can confirm that they've been used for caving.
I'll look into them a bit and with any luck I'll add them soon! :thanks:


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## Stef

Good job. You can add the LedLampe IV from TechTonique
http://www.spelemat.com/ledlampe


Envoyé depuis mon téléphone.


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## Mooreshire

Stef said:


> Good job. You can add the LedLampe IV from TechTonique



Thanks Stef. I already knew of the LedLampe but from what I can determine it is no longer available. The website is from 2009, the direct ordering link doesn't work, none of the retailers they link to list it in stock any more, and we haven't been able to get any response to email inquiries.

Same story for the Viper Light.


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## Matjazz

Mastrel custom duo

Not yet available but worth keeping an eye on Karstec Astrana


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## jeffkruse

Bummer, the link doesnt work for me.


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## Mooreshire

Matjazz said:


> Mastrel custom duo
> 
> Not yet available but worth keeping an eye on Karstec Astrana



That upcoming Karstec lamp looks like it could be cool. The Duo retrofits made by Mastrel were too dim to make the list though.



N10 said:


> headlamps made by... lupine and silva should be up on the list..



I asked around but have not yet found one caver who uses them. The response I got was basically "_that's way too much money not to be able to control spot vs flood_", and "_if I was going to spend $400+ on a lamp I would get a [purpose built caving lamp]_". So, I am of the impression that high-end bike lights like those are impractical due to high cost combined with a lack of features that cavers prefer (like very low output modes and the ability to switch between flood and spot). It seems that using bike lights for caving is usually a low-budget option. If I hear otherwise I'll reconsider but for now I'm leaving them off the list until I get some personal (or even second hand) accounts of their use underground.


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## Mooreshire

Mooreshire said:


> I asked around but have not yet found one caver who uses them.



:lolsign: Not thirty seconds after posting that someone replied to one of my inquiries saying they are happy with their Piko and Betty models. Looks like they might make it on after all.


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## B0wz3r

No one considering either the Zebralight or Spark models? I did my first real caving last summer at Lava Bed National Monument, and I'm looking forward to doing more. Also, I can't stand having an external battery pack, and I love the T body design of the Sparks, so a Spark ST6-460nw is tops on my list.


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## vtunderground

I respectfully disagree with the 200 lumen minimum guideline. IMHO, more important is the maximum output that can be maintained for the duration of a caving trip (without having the change batteries). 

As an example, the Zebralight H51 can output 200 lumens, but that's only for 0.9 hours! It can, however, last 8 hours at 30 lumens. The Princeton Tec Corona isn't on the list because it maxes out at 90 lumens... BUT, at 30 lumens (the 5-low setting) it'll last for 14.5 hours. I'd call that more cave-worthy than the Zebralight H51.

When I go caving (surveying) I usually expect to be underground for 10 hours or so. So when I compare headlamps, I compare how many lumens each one will output for *at least* 10 hours. Maximum output is less important.


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## eh4

vtunderground said:


> I respectfully disagree with the 200 lumen minimum guideline. IMHO, more important is the maximum output that can be maintained for the duration of a caving trip (without having the change batteries).



I like that. 
Caving is like climbing, bicycling, or skiing or any other well developed, specialized activity for that matter, and those who get seriously into it are prone to a bit of (often deserved) elitism... But we shouldn't let the gulf grow. 
All of these sports grew from someone setting an opportunity to try something new or go somewhere they weren't sure about. Peaks that are regularly bagged now before lunch were once carefully conquered with raw nerve and some laid rope.

I've explored a few wild caves that no one has likely found in a century or two, any seasoned spelunker would probably laugh at a few of them of them, the mud and the bother for how small they ultimately ended up being, but it wasn't a sport it was an adventure. I didn't even plan on going caving till I found them. 
Hell I did one with a fat candle and an incan mini mag as back up... Didn't want to use up the batteries unnecessarily, two is one right? lol.
For that matter I free climbed a bit getting to some of them, again nothing that a climber would think twice about, but for me it was the limit of what I considered a Reasonable risk.
Anyhow, sport amping/bigger/better/farther/faster aside, there is a hell of a lot of value in fairly humble tools that are reliable and last the duration of an impromptu exploration (hopefully not an adventure ;-) ).

If I was under ground for days on end in caves, mines or sub ways I'd want redundant lights that would run on low levels for far longer than I could survive.
ZL H600, a ZL H52 and a Pak-Lite riding on a lithium 9v would be a good start. -about 200$ for three lights that can all last longer than me without a battery charge. 
And with a little tape and maybe shaking some water out and/or washing mud out (I'd just tape it nicely), I'll bet that the chintzy looking Pak-Lite is about as reliable as most and more reliable than some many times its price.


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## Mooreshire

Excellent points, folks. I don't disagree with any of them really, and perhaps some day I'll expand my guidelines and extend the list out to include all sorts of options. For now though, it's hard enough for me to keep track of and try to make sense of this range. I certainly agree with you that runtime is more important than maximum output! Also, redundant lights (at least three sources for each caver!) are super important.

I do want to be as neutral as I can be here, providing just facts about those lights which are currently generally 'suggestible'... but for now this is a list of *bright*, etc., caving appropriate headlamps - and I'm pretty happy with it that way. In fact I welcome anyone to try and assemble a list of and stats for all the headlamps that get caved with (or whatever criteria you feel would be best) and I'll surely help to contribute, but I fear it'll be a very long list stuffed full of lots of what are now rather less-than-desirable lights.

In my experience, a caver who shows up to a trip with a (comparatively) dim headlamp will have less fun and see fewer amazing details than those with brighter, and ultimately they'll wish they had had a more modern lamp. I don't want this to be a list of lamps which will most likely disappoint someone, and finding that you are stuck with a way dimmer light than everyone else is usually quite disappointing. With all the 600+ lumen headlamps underground now, I do feel 200 lumens _is_ a reasonable minimum to suggest for someone looking to buy themselves a lamp for caving.

There are tons of off-brand options, and dimmer inexpensive mining and hunting lamps for example, and of course I know many cavers who happily and frugally use them. I think it would be quite a feat to wade through such a list and unfortunately few people would be interested in or happy with the majority of such lamps. Also I'd hate to have a hundred entries along the lines of "so you search ebay for 'zoom headlamp 1200 lumens' and you'll find a blue colored light that's truly putting out 560 or so lumens with a flimsy cord that isn't very waterproof but with an actually rather nice beam aside from the blinking modes and it'll probably serve you just fine but if it doesn't then sorry but hey it was only $18".

When I moved from a finicky and flickering carbide lamp flame on my head to a 6-12v incandescent I _saw more_ of each cave I visted and enjoyed myself more, when I transitioned from the dim incan to a 200-or-so lumen LED lamp I saw and enjoyed even more, and recently moving from the 200 lumen models to 700-1000+ lumen lamps... well let's just say that I wouldn't want anyone to have to settle for what I started with. 

Let's light up the deep places baby! (Except where the bats are sleeping of course.  )


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## B0wz3r

I'm quite vexed by caver's resistance to using hand-held lights. My experience has been that headlamps give me terrible tunnel vision, and make it excruciatingly difficult to read the surface of the cave floor or walls. A hand-held light fixes this problem easily for me. I can see how you need both hand free, but why not simply mount a light on your hand or wrist? When I was getting my intro to caving at Lava Beds, I used my SC50w+ on a wrist lanyard. When I didn't need it, I just tucked it into the sleeve of my shirt and tucked the sleeve under the cuff of my glove. That worked fine for me. Admittedly, I wasn't doing any 'hard-core' caving there, but still, I don't see why something like a hand or wrist mounted light wouldn't be a welcome addition for any caver.

The run-time specs on the Spark 18650 models are very impressive... The ST6-460nw is at the top of my list of lights to get right now. Here's a copy/paste of the specs of the light from Spark's product info page. 

*Features*
*LED:CREE XML T5 Neutral White*
*5 modes*
Super: 460lm/1.8hours
Max: 200lm/3.5hours
Med1: 70lm/12hours
Med2: 12lm/120hours
Low: 0.5lm/90days
*
Battery*
One 18650 rechargeable Li battery with range from 3.7V to 4.2V or 2*CR123
Reverse polarity accepted circuit
Electrically conductive aluminum body provides inherent EMI/RFI shielding

SCHOTT ultra clear lens
Polarity reversibility
IPX8 waterproof
*
Weight*
without battery:50g
with battery and headband:150g
*
Dimension*
Length:78mm
Width:52mm

The 70 lumens for 12 hours certainly meets your run-time criterion. Also, I like the t-body design of the Sparks as I find they work a LOT better than Zebras when wearing a hat or hood. The forward projection of the emitter housing results in less blockage of the beam when wearing the light on a hat, or under a hood. While I prefer the UI and the levels available on the Zebras, because of the flush mounted emitter on the side of the light's body, I find my Spark ST5-190nw a better light in certain uses/situations than any of my Zebras.


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## uk_caver

On the lumen front, I'm somewhat torn.

I certainly see more (both intentionally and accidentally) as a result of building and using brighter caving lights over the last ~9 years, and I like being able to walk into a cave from sunlight without having to take care and let my eyes adjust, but there is also an arms race aspect to things - at least so far, people quite happy with a generation N light I made them fairly quickly started asking about an upgrade to a generation N+1 light when they started finding themselves walking in relative shadows as a result of someone behind them having a newer model.

Having spent a fair amount of time talking to people about lights, people frequently ask about runtimes and maximum lumens, but much less often ask about beamshape or available beam blends.
Maybe some of the latter is down to not having easy means of comparison (how tight *is* a '_tight spot_'?), but to me it still seems strange that someone would ask how many lumens were in a spot beam but not whether it was ~4° or 14°.


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## uk_caver

Regarding handheld lights, I don't personally get a feeling of tunnel vision from using headlamps, and it's hard to see many movement situations where a handheld or wristmount light would be much use to me - in narrow passages I'd often have hands on the walls, and in non-narrow ones with uneven floors, using a wrist light would seem likely to distract my arm from normal balancing duties. For any vertical work or crawling, my hands are occupied and my forearms aren't pointing in useful directions.

Possibly the only useful scanarios which spring to mind are relatively flat uniform-coloured mud floors, where a light away from the eyes might help show surface variation better, but much of that difficulty of seeing variation seems intensity-dependent - I think that my current light is bright enough in that respect for the colours of floors caves here tend to have, especially with a little hard-edged spot added into the flood.
Possibly black lava tubes are a bit of a special case?


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## Mooreshire

uk_caver said:


> On the lumen front, I'm somewhat torn.
> 
> I certainly see more (both intentionally and accidentally) as a result of building and using brighter caving lights over the last ~9 years, and I like being able to walk into a cave from sunlight without having to take care and let my eyes adjust, but there is also an arms race aspect to things - at least so far, people quite happy with a generation N light I made them fairly quickly started asking about an upgrade to a generation N+1 light when they started finding themselves walking in relative shadows as a result of someone behind them having a newer model.
> 
> Having spent a fair amount of time talking to people about lights, people frequently ask about runtimes and maximum lumens, but much less often ask about beamshape or available beam blends.
> Maybe some of the latter is down to not having easy means of comparison (how tight *is* a '_tight spot_'?), but to me it still seems strange that someone would ask how many lumens were in a spot beam but not whether it was ~4° or 14°.



You and I think very alike! In fact you may have articulated the issue better than I could have. :thumbsup:

Blending of flood and spot brightnesses; diffused, aspheric, or hotspot with spill; they can all be made to work very well or can be implemented poorly... but it certainly has proven difficult to describe and compare those attributes and details that are the most desirable.

Usually I take the easy route out of the discussion and claim that everyone is going to consider a different headlamp "the best" because we all have different needs and preferences.




B0wz3r said:


> I can't stand [_feature X_], and I love [_feature Y_], so a [_certain model_] is tops on my list.



See?  It's all about finding the right lamp for you!



B0wz3r said:


> I'm quite vexed by caver's resistance to using hand-held lights. My experience has been that headlamps give me terrible tunnel vision, and make it excruciatingly difficult to read the surface of the cave floor or walls. A hand-held light fixes this problem easily for me. I can see how you need both hand free, but why not simply mount a light on your hand or wrist? When I was getting my intro to caving at Lava Beds, I used my SC50w+ on a wrist lanyard. When I didn't need it, I just tucked it into the sleeve of my shirt and tucked the sleeve under the cuff of my glove. That worked fine for me. Admittedly, I wasn't doing any 'hard-core' caving there, but still, I don't see why something like a hand or wrist mounted light wouldn't be a welcome addition for any caver.





uk_caver said:


> Regarding handheld lights, I don't personally get a feeling of tunnel vision from using headlamps, and it's hard to see many movement situations where a handheld or wristmount light would be much use to me - in narrow passages I'd often have hands on the walls, and in non-narrow ones with uneven floors, using a wrist light would seem likely to distract my arm from normal balancing duties. For any vertical work or crawling, my hands are occupied and my forearms aren't pointing in useful directions.
> 
> Possibly the only useful scenarios which spring to mind are relatively flat uniform-coloured mud floors, where a light away from the eyes might help show surface variation better, but much of that difficulty of seeing variation seems intensity-dependent - I think that my current light is bright enough in that respect for the colours of floors caves here tend to have, especially with a little hard-edged spot added into the flood.
> Possibly black lava tubes are a bit of a special case?



Lava tubes are indeed dark as hell and it can be especially hard to make out detail when all you've got to work with is glare off some water on a jet black surface - but they are also often prominently very easy walking passage. 

Personally I DO know lots of cavers who carry a bright handheld (in their hand, not as a backup in a pack), and my coveralls even have a handy wrist pocket made for a flashlight. I'm always waving my handhelds around in conjunction with my headlamp, or switching to just the handheld for bits at a time. You still need a quality headlamp though. No real resistance observed here, it's just that with the harder tighter caves comprising mainly of climbing and crawling, you've rarely got a hand free (as uk_caver pointed out). I think it could be cool to experiment with affixing lights to other parts of your body like a wrist light (diver style). I've also wondered about a small lightweight light designed to clip onto the strap of your pack, sort of a chest or shoulder light - unfortunately with such alternative mounting locations I fear I'd just blind myself and others even more often than I do now. 

I'm totally coming around on the Hi-CRI issue too - better color means more detail, and the lifeless blue diodes I used happily for years just aren't cutting it any more.

---

In other news the list now has the proper stats for the sexy new Stenlight Rebel X7 Premium SuperSport Deluxe Special 3000 Cosworth or whatever they're calling it (touting a 500 lumen turbo mode that thermally steps down to 300) which has a 2.5mAh battery pack and a new jack that may not be compatible with old batteries. Most retailers are still selling the old models for the same price though, so buyers beware - I got most of the stats off of CaveChat and OnRope1 seems to be the only retailer with the new version properly labeled. Stenlight's website is older than dirt!

Also, I'm holding off on the Lupines unless more cavers speak up with personal accounts - they just seem way too... _bike light'ish_. It might be a can of worms I don't want to open since there are also tons of budget-but-bright bike lights with headband options that get used underground (Magicshine, etc.) and I'm not sure I'm ready to poll people on their use of such lights and collect all the stats. (Lots of biking cavers want to keep costs down between their two hobbies - I've seen a lot of wire ties and dangling handlebar mount switches.)


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## jeffkruse

I always use a hand light (Zebra sc600w or Fenix pd31) when caving. I find it much easier to point the light around with my hand and move my eyes around with only small movements of my head. It’s so much easier on my neck. I find it much easier to see my feet and where I am going to place my next step. When my SC600 steps down to medium I put it away and pull out the PD31.

I also like to enter the cave with all my lights on full power after being out in the tropical sun. If I just relied on 100 lumens to light my way I would have to wait 5 minutes for my eyes to adjust. 

I do use my hands for climbing the rocks regularly and frequently I am putting the light in my pocket or letting it dangle for a minute when climbing the dangerous stuff.


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## eh4

Mooreshire mentions affixing lights to other parts of your suit and gear. This is something that occurred to me when looking at the extensive runtimes of ZL low levels. 
I was wondering if keeping a spare light source on the back of a helmet or "drag bag"/fanny pack or whatnot might make sense in some cases, especially when exploring with others who are not part of the lumens arms race. 
An H51 or H502 for instance, left on one of it's lowest levels and facing backwards would show your location easily to someone following behind you as well as show the geography of the immediate area that you are climbing through without them needing to back light you.
In the event of light failure or an injury it could be useful to have a second light already on. In the event of an injured or incapacitated partner they'd already have a lit locator on them that could remain lit for much longer than they would.
I would not rely on the ZL clip or silicone holder for a use like this, more like duct tape, zip ties, Velcro wraps or cord with constrictor knot.


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## B0wz3r

I'm the first to admit my caving experience is very limited (but I want to do more, just haven't had the opportunity), but in my week of going through the tubes at Lava Beds I found a combination of three lights that worked for me like a charm. First was my ST5-190 on my helmet; worked just fine as the headlamp it is. Second was my SC50w+ on a wrist lanyard. Third was my Jetbeam Jet III Pro ST which has a very throwy beam profile for not being a dedicated thrower; I used it primarily for looking down longer shafts/tubes to see what was up ahead, otherwise it was kept in a pocket.

Many of the tubes there did allow walking upright, but I also explored several of the more challenging ones that required crawling or belly crawling for long distances. When I could walk upright, I found my handheld _much_ more useful than my headlamp. When I was crawling or belly crawling, I still got tunnel vision from my headlamp, but solved this simply by pointing the light up so it illuminated the ceiling of the tube in front of me, and the splash lit the rest of the tube. This not only gave me an excellent view of the floor of the tube in front of me, but of the ceiling as well, which more often than not were covered in literally thousands of those little sharp ridges and spikes from the cooling lava dripping off the ceiling of the tube. Even with a helmet on they could do some _serious_ damage if you weren't careful... So even when I had to belly crawl, I found the combination of a handheld and headlamp far more useful than relying on a headlamp alone. 

I guess I'm just very puzzled why a lot of cavers seem at the very least, to scoff at carrying/using a handheld, if not being outright contemptuous of it, in favor of _only_ using headlamps.


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## joanne

B0wz3r said:


> I'm the first to admit my caving experience is very limited (but I want to do more, just haven't had the opportunity), but in my week of going through the tubes at Lava Beds I found a combination of three lights that worked for me like a charm. First was my ST5-190 on my helmet; worked just fine as the headlamp it is. Second was my SC50w+ on a wrist lanyard. Third was my Jetbeam Jet III Pro ST which has a very throwy beam profile for not being a dedicated thrower; I used it primarily for looking down longer shafts/tubes to see what was up ahead, otherwise it was kept in a pocket.
> 
> Many of the tubes there did allow walking upright, but I also explored several of the more challenging ones that required crawling or belly crawling for long distances. When I could walk upright, I found my handheld _much_ more useful than my headlamp. When I was crawling or belly crawling, I still got tunnel vision from my headlamp, but solved this simply by pointing the light up so it illuminated the ceiling of the tube in front of me, and the splash lit the rest of the tube. This not only gave me an excellent view of the floor of the tube in front of me, but of the ceiling as well, which more often than not were covered in literally thousands of those little sharp ridges and spikes from the cooling lava dripping off the ceiling of the tube. Even with a helmet on they could do some _serious_ damage if you weren't careful... So even when I had to belly crawl, I found the combination of a handheld and headlamp far more useful than relying on a headlamp alone.
> 
> I guess I'm just very puzzled why a lot of cavers seem at the very least, to scoff at carrying/using a handheld, if not being outright contemptuous of it, in favor of _only_ using headlamps.



I've done a little bit of caving, a few lava tubes, and quite a few mines. Here's my take on it. Lava tubes tend to lie on a nearly horizontal axis. There my be a bit of scrambling involved, but in my experience it was never very challenging. The caves I've been in were much more challenging to climb through. It was serious scrambling to near technical climbing. I needed both hands to safely climb up or down. That's where the headlamp comes into its own. Finally, I do quite a bit of mine exploring with a significant amount of that being vertical exploration. With rappelling or rope climbing you need both hands available to control your descent or operate your ascenders. Holding a flashlight in those situations would be quite impractical. And of course, if you were to drop the light while on rope you could quickly be in a life threatening situation dangling on a rope in complete darkness. 

All said all that, I always have a hand held light in my pocket when I head underground. It serves to purposes for me. First it is my backup light that I can retrieve without having to dig in my backpack to fish out my backup headlamp. Secondarily, I usually use my headlamp in flood mode so my handheld is my long throw beam.

Here's my headlamp that a friend of mine in England made up for me. It has a flood beam, a focused beam, and two 5mm LEDs for emergency. It runs off of a 3 cell 18650 pack. I really love this light. My Apex Pro is now my designated backup lamp (or loaner if someone needs a light).







*Joanne*

P.S. - I apologize for being off-topic for the original subject of this thread.


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## Matjazz

There's also a Spike Light V3 that's already shipping.
http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb...ike-Light-V3&p=3873187&viewfull=1#post3873187


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## eh4

Wow that Spike V3 looks good to me.


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## Mooreshire

eh4 said:


> Wow that Spike V3 looks good to me.



Indeed - I'm really looking forward to finally getting mine!  Unfortunately for the most part it is only flood _OR_ spot, with no real blending options and no low spot modes. I'll do my best to break mine underground, and we'll see if any other cavers get and use it. With any luck they will prove themselves dependable and AHorton won't regret all his hard work and the hefty financial investment - designing and building a custom run of high quality yet affordable handmade headlamps is absurdly difficult and few such projects make it all the way to production - the two (Spikelight V3 and Kavelight P60 host) from this forum are both amazing.

lovecpf


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## eh4

ahorton is moving it forward, he's mentioned the idea of open source programming for the light... By V4 it should be plenty reasonable to anticipate spot +flood options with a little bit of capital encouragement and feedback.
Because of this thread I read the Spike thread, and now I gotta reorganize my plans for the change jar.
I can imagine a fundamentally modular design becoming the eventual evolution of his light... Lots of possibilities.


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## uk_caver

UIs can be difficult.
I tried in my own latest twin-LED unit to make one light with simple and more advanced modes to suit everyone, but even having done that, I found trying to explain it to people, I was losing the ones who would want a simple light by explaining the modes they were unlikely ever to use.
Tricky thing is, there are quite a few people who want 'simple', but they often seem to want different _kinds_ of simple, and having different kinds of simple is itself complicated.

As a result of looking at a succession of glazed eyes, I dug back through my development notes and came up with one mode which is simple to learn and logical but very powerful, but faced with writing a user manual for the new version which included that mode, I decided to leave out all the previous modes in the manual even though I had left them available in the unit, to try and avoid putting off the people keen on simplicity, and refer anyone who really wanted to know about them to the old manual.


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## diggy64

If you get a Kavelight, kevin will work with you on a custom UI based on your needs. It truly is a bargain given all the attention to detail he spends on each light. 

If you need runtimes for Kavelight and/or CustomDuo let me know. Finals are over on Sunday and I will have time to do some testing. Shoot me a PM if I forget.


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## Mooreshire

diggy64 said:


> If you need runtimes for Kavelight and/or CustomDuo let me know.



I own them both, but don't have any plans to try and list runtimes. I fear it would just confuse the inexperienced. Especially the Kavelight, which will likely have different dropins than mine or yours has.
Someone will put Alkalines in their CustomDuo or UltraFires in their Kavelight, complain that they got half or less of the listed runtime, and call me a liar. 
Of course this is true with any light that takes consumer provided batteries - but at least with most of the lamps I can blame the manufacturer's specs.


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## KarstGhost

I'd agree that changing batteries in cave is never fun. I've had mud saturate my boots, ruin the zipper on my coveralls, and come up over the cuff of my gloves and pour down into my hands many times. You have to be very cautious not to get mud all over your batteries or inside your light during the change. That's why I always look for a headlamp that will provide at least a 6 hour run time on an adequate lumen level. 

I've used a Fenix HP-10 since 2009. Before that I used an earlier model PT Apex. I'd say 75% of the cavers I know use the PT Apex. A few others use a Sten-Light. Surely there are better options than these 3 lights though. I've heard a few reports of all 3 failing, less so for the Sten. But Sten never seems very quick to update their emitter. 

I'd love to update to a headlamp with a High CRI option and improved run time, so I'll be watching this thread with interest!


----------



## luxlucis

hi,
look at this new by Petzl
NAO, a rechargeable headlamp with self-adjusting lighting, the "REACTIVE LIGHTING" technology.
http://www.petzl.com/en/outdoor/headlamps/performance-series/performance-series-headlamps/nao
I've used one and works really fine, but my testing was only outdoor not speleo.
It works with Li-Ion battery rechargeable via USB or with 2 AAA/LR03 batteries and can be tuned using a proprietary OS by Petzl (http://www.petzl.com/OS).


----------



## Matjazz

An interesting headlamp indeed. Had it for two days and I quickly got used to adaptive light and got even spoiled by it. Unfortunately it isn't waterproof.


----------



## Mooreshire

I've added the Fenix HL30 to the list. A budget option for sure, but I've heard back from a few cavers who say it's quite functional as long as you're not spending too much time underneath waterfalls or bashing the lamp into the ceiling too often.

I've removed the LEDLenser from the list. It is listed as discontinued, and even though they are still in stock all over the place I think the massive number of knockoffs with better diodes but lousier components and construction complicates the issue enough to just pull it.


----------



## luxlucis

also these: PETZL ULTRA VARIO® & ULTRA VARIO® BELT
http://www.petzl.com/us/pro/headlamp/high-performance/ultra
http://www.petzl.com/us/pro/headlamp/high-performance/ultra-belt

IP 67


----------



## Mooreshire

luxlucis said:


> PETZL ULTRA VARIO® & ULTRA VARIO® BELT
> http://www.petzl.com/us/pro/headlamp/high-performance/ultra
> http://www.petzl.com/us/pro/headlamp/high-performance/ultra-belt



Interesting. Thanks for the news, luxlucis. It looks as if the Petzl Ultra as I have it listed... is no more. 

In its place is the Ultra RUSH, with six diodes shining through a clear spot optic and boasting 760 lumens.

And now this lovely addition, the Ultra VARIO. Four modes each with differing beam shapes: spot, combined, flood, & low. Up to 520 lumens, they say.

Unfortunately Petzl is yet to update their combined headlamps specification sheet so I can't see the detailed runtimes, etc.

I'm preparing for a big caving trip, so if I don't get these babies on the list before the weekend they'll be up before the end of next week.


----------



## luxlucis

Mooreshire said:


> Unfortunately Petzl is yet to update their combined headlamps specification sheet so I can't see the detailed runtimes, etc.



so
http://www.petzl.com/files/all/technical-notice/Pro/E54H-ULTRA-VARIO.pdf
http://www.petzl.com/files/all/technical-notice/Pro/E54B-Ultra-Vario-Belt.pdf

hope to be useful to you


----------



## psychbeat

I'm using this mod to my KAVElight I use for night riding but u might find it useful underground 

I attached one of Ashes aspheric lenses to the outside of the flood side to create a more useful 90degree flood rather than wasting so much light in the side spill. 

It's a De-Domed XM-L2 4.2a SMO from Vinh on the spot & A dual hiCRI XP-G 2.8a from Nailbender on the flood.


----------



## Matjazz

NaturalShine Caveman 3000
http://www.naturalshine.eu/index.php?option=com_k2&view=item&id=147:caveman_3000&Itemid=117


----------



## uk_caver

If I go to that link and allow the page in adblockplus, avast antivirus pops up with a warning about a malware link to 'clusteringpaperless.biz'.


----------



## Mooreshire

I'm happy to be proven wrong but I don't think that the Caveman 3000 will be much of a success among serious cavers what with the disorienting strobe, non-replaceable wimpy 2500mah batteries (three superior batteries would produce more power than their cheap four cells do), oddly mismatched color temperatures, and the inability to control the flood and spot independently _(edit: oops I was wrong about that last part)_. I hate to say it but the virus warning that most browsers announce when visiting their website eludes to more serious quality control issues. I foresee some people buying them with the intention of modifying them (much like we all do with the cheap Chinese handhelds), which could be interesting.

In other news I've added the Fenix HP25 and Zebralight H502w to the list. I'm waiting for cavers to start talking about using their ArmyTek Wizard Pros underground, but I imagine that they get added to the list before too long.


----------



## uk_caver

Mooreshire said:


> ...and the inability to control the flood and spot independently.


I understand the other points, and I really can't _begin_ to understand why they had the flashing modes in their selection, but according to the manual, it would appear that rather than independent control of flood and spot, there was independent control of power and beam blend, even if there was only one 'combined' blend, and its nature was not clear.

At least if done properly, there are definitely meaningful arguments in favour of controlling power level and beam blend independently rather than controlling flood and spot power independently.
Having used the latter type of light for a very longtime, I'm almost always running in one of 3 or 4 flood:spot power _ratios_.
Having used the former type of light to a limited extent, even with some amount of unlearning to do, it did somehow feel quite natural.


----------



## Mooreshire

uk_caver said:


> I understand the other points, and I really can't _begin_ to understand why they had the flashing modes in their selection, but according to the manual, it would appear that rather than independent control of flood and spot, there was independent control of power and beam blend, even if there was only one 'combined' blend, and its nature was not clear.
> 
> At least if done properly, there are definitely meaningful arguments in favour of controlling power level and beam blend independently rather than controlling flood and spot power independently.
> Having used the latter type of light for a very longtime, I'm almost always running in one of 3 or 4 flood:spot power _ratios_.
> Having used the former type of light to a limited extent, even with some amount of unlearning to do, it did somehow feel quite natural.



Ah yes, I see I'm indeed wrong about the flood and/or spot capabilities of the Caveman 3000. Thanks for setting me straight - I saw the strobe modes, slapped my forehead with my hand, and didn't read much further. That said I'm sure there's a caver or two out there who wants to use their lamp for bicycling too and will love the beacon blink mode. It may make the list, but only if/after the people who report to me on such things start using them underground. If it was a little bit cheaper I'd buy one just to send it across town to Vinh Nguyen to see what he could make out of it!

I'm not entirely sure how you are differentiating between "controlling power level and beam blend independently" versus "controlling flood and spot power independently".. I think I can picture the practical difference but you may need to dumb it down a bit for me. 

As for whether you really need the "and/or" choice I think understand where you're coming from. I'm currently using a premixed blend (100%-30%-10% for both flood and spot together, although if I need to I can jiggle it into any combination therein for photo/video purposes) in my Kavelight p60 host and only rarely miss the pure-flood or pure-spot modes that I had in my previous configuration of the light. I think a lot of cavers do consider the and/or capability to be significant and important though, if the criticisms of the El Speleo and concerns over the HP25 (before the full details about it's control scheme came out) are any indicator.


----------



## uk_caver

Mooreshire said:


> I'm not entirely sure how you are differentiating between "controlling power level and beam blend independently" versus "controlling flood and spot power independently".. I think I can picture the practical difference but you may need to dumb it down a bit for me.


It wasn't something _I'd_ thought about much until it ended up being the 'obvious-in-hindsight' way to improve the UI of a light. Which rather primed me for reading the manual for this light.
(And aren't so many things annoyingly obvious in hindsight?)

Essentially, what I'd call 'power/blend control' has a certain number of power levels (selected by one control) controlling the total power and a certain number of beam blends selected by another control (such as, for example, pure_flood/spot_augmented_flood/vaguely_even_mix/pure_spot) controlling the ratio between the beams.

In an independent-LED situation, many of the possible combinations might be of limited use, like spot-heavy beams where the spot beam has meaningful spill, which may be barely different from pure spot beams.


----------



## Mooreshire

uk_caver said:


> It wasn't something _I'd_ thought about much until it ended up being the 'obvious-in-hindsight' way to improve the UI of a light. Which rather primed me for reading the manual for this light.
> (And aren't so many things annoyingly obvious in hindsight?)
> 
> Essentially, what I'd call 'power/blend control' has a certain number of power levels (selected by one control) controlling the total power and a certain number of beam blends selected by another control (such as, for example, pure_flood/spot_augmented_flood/vaguely_even_mix/pure_spot) controlling the ratio between the beams.
> 
> In an independent-LED situation, many of the possible combinations might be of limited use, like spot-heavy beams where the spot beam has meaningful spill, which may be barely different from pure spot beams.



Okay thanks, I think I understand now. There could be several such approaches all of which would technically be "flood and/or spot", but with some sort of different UI control like the setup you've just described. There certainly can be a lot of different ways to execute control over multiple diodes working under different optics! 

I think several of the CustomDUO modules are technically "flood or blend" (low flood, blend 1, brighter blend 2, etc. with no spot by itself in the mix), and others are technically "flood or spot" with no blend option at all. I should rethink the wording on that for the list. Similarly, Petzl's Ultra Vario only has one combination mode in the mix (low flood, bright flood, single bright mix, dimmer but far-throwing spot). As I eluded to earlier the El Speleo has no beam blending capabilities even though it looks like it really should. I can't claim to know the true ins-and-outs of most of the user interfaces for the lights on this list, but hopefully I'm representing them at least somewhat accurately. :tinfoil:

I had been thinking that the trend seemed to be going towards less mixing control or fewer combination modes, but now suddenly the USB-programmable Petzls and this new Fenix HP25 seem to have taken different approaches entirely.


----------



## uk_caver

If I was to try and make a list of UI types for twin-beams, it would be something like:

a) Independent (either/or) - PT Apex
b) Independent (mixable) - HP25
c) Independent (power vs. beam blend)
d) Programmed (fixed) - Rude Nora
e) Programmed (configurable) - Scurion
f) Programmed (automatic) - Nao

Essentially, in the 'programmed' ones the user cycles through some preselected set of output combinations, either fixed by the manufacturer, or changeable by the user, and 'programmed' would cover anything from a Pixa3 upwards.

In most of the above, there are possibilities for 'extras' like 'boost' output, modes hidden off a main sequence, power indication, SOS).

I'm not sure I'm aware of anything which wouldn't fit in that list - I think effectively anything that didn't have independent control could be called 'programmed'.

It might be debatable what to call an Apex clone with a single button - I guess that could be thought of as primitively programmed.


----------



## Mystiqz

thank you for setting up the excel sheet. I am going cave exploring in lava tubes this September and found the information here quite useful  Thanks again!


----------



## Mooreshire

I've made a lot of updates for headlamps that have upgraded to XM-L2 diodes, including the Zebralights and most of the Sparks. 
The Rude Nora 2 is on the list, and the new models of Scurion lamps are hopefully sorted out. 
Also added Fenix HP15 and updated PT Apex Pro.


----------



## KarstGhost

I've been on a few cave trips with the Armytek Wizard. I'll put in a positive vote for it. Waterproofing seems solid, has a nice flood beam good for caving, high lumens, enough runtime to do a full trip without change of batteries, and no wires to worry about. 

I don't know of any other cavers using it yet though. Just ordered a neutral one for my main light and will use the cool as a backup.


----------



## StealthZ

I would like to suggest adding the new Nitecore HC50 to the list.

It's brand new, so may take a bit of time to qualify for your "Proven" requirement, but I thought I would throw it out there. Used it this weekend for a 7+ hr caving trip and it did great. It was a pretty tough trip with lots of water and mud, and it I am super happy with it. 

Some of the reviews for it complained about the weight, but mounted on a helmet it is a non issue. Plus the all metal design (including the endcaps) which contributes to the weight, is a real plus in strength and durability. And thank god, NO cables or rear mounted battery pack to leak or fail. It will give you 1 lumen for 400 hrs to 565 lumens for an hour and a bit, all modes thermally regulated, so no 'drop out' on max. I used that max setting in one of the bigger rooms and it was just stupid bright - it literally washed out everyone else's lights . Nice clean beam with no rings and a really nice color temperature that didn't seem to wash out the colors of the cave. Lots of wet crawly caves here in Texas so IXP-8 is an absolute must. Damn battery pack on my Fenix HP11 leaked every time. I would post a pic of the Nitecore mounted to my helmet covered in mud, but having difficulty doing that... Hmm, I'll work on that.


----------



## Mooreshire

Some of the newer Nitecore, Armytek, and Fenix headlamps have been added.  Thanks for all of the feedback!


----------



## Matjazz

A new caving lamp on the horizon Phaethon:


----------



## Tmack

I just picked up a hc90vn nitecore. I've decided to explore more headlamps after falling in love with the spark sd6vn. Both are really amazing lights. 
The nitecore hc90 is 900lm, and has three colored led. Infinitely variable, and mini usb rechargeable. 
I think this would be even more qualified for caving than the hc50 because of the superior heatsinking, output, and colored leds (red, green, blue) 
Ultra wide spill, 1x18650, thermal sensor for temperature step-down instead if a timed step-down. Vertically adjustable with a pivot point allowing the lamp to be rocked up and down.

Just a thought. I saw the hc50, but no hc90 on the list.  
Happy caving fellas. Sounds like a blast.


----------



## Mooreshire

The Phaethon looks pretty cool, and I've been seriously considering buying an HC90vn for myself. It takes a while for new technologies to be accepted into any cautious community, and cavers are usually as cautious and slow to adopt as any. If I start seeing reports from cavers about how a new model of lamp survives being coated with mud, bashed repeatedly against rocks, left wet for days on end, et cetera, then I'll look into adding the model(s) in question to the list. If they don't prove to have some weakness that makes them unsuitable, i'm sure they'll eventually make it onto my list. (For example, I'm curious if the sliding switch on the HC90 will survive the aforementioned repeated rock bashing.)

I didn't want to spam the forum with every change I've made, but several new models have been added since my last itemized update, and of course stats have been adjusted where needed and some discontinued models have been removed. I'm sure there are still errors or missing data though so I still appreciate everyone's help with suggestions for additions and edits.


----------



## lusifer

here is very similar lamp to Phaethon. 





 

also output setting are the same.
probable same stock driver in smart body, nothing specially.
http://www.dvls.gr/specifications.html

..connectors and switch are not diving as says


----------



## lusifer

Matjazz said:


> A new caving lamp on the horizon Phaethon:


lamp setup seem like another dual beam bike lamp, caving not for shure.
two emmiters all time together,stobo,...
is nice but copy of duo gemini or similar


----------



## lusifer

horrible modes setup in good loking body 

..The lamp have also and six different strobe sequences for bicycle use ... :sick2:


----------



## lusifer

ultra light, small headlamp, not special for professional caving but nice

http://www.stootsconcept.fr/index.php/stoots-lampe-frontale/stoots-lampe-frontale-modeles.html


----------



## lusifer

http://www.vipercave.com/

also not have separate wide and tight beam :mecry: but not have blinks and similar poop.


----------



## lusifer

another try :twothumbs http://www.mailedtec.it/


----------



## teckul

Matjazz said:


> A new caving lamp on the horizon Phaethon:



Do you have anymore info on this, is is submersible, battery run times, modes etc?


----------



## lusifer

for modes, try look video above.
good looking lamp with poop driver setup (probable stock).no separate led working, this is not for caving. especially not for photo!! 
also this wide light emmiter looking nonproffesional . cost 400 euros
6 type of strobos


----------



## lusifer

http://www.midiled.pl/


----------



## Stelios Zacharias

teckul said:


> Do you have anymore info on this, is is submersible, battery run times, modes etc?



Hi teckul, I have been using the Phaethon for about a year - it is submersible to 100m (according to the guys who make it) - although at the moment they are individually testing each one at -50m equivalent pressure. 

The battery run times are decent enough - there are published runtimes somewhere - full power (2000 lumen, daylight balance for photos) lasts about 30 minutes in total (as advertised), but not in one continuous stretch as the circuit for overheating cuts in. Runtime on other settings is plenty long (I don't have the details to had). 

What I really like is how easy it is to change batteries and the fact that the batteries are off the shelf 18650s - which means you can carry around as many as you think you will need and don't have to worry about recharging propriety battery packs. 

I am not sure what Lusifer's beef is with this light - I have found it reliable and bright, although I have not had a chance to give it as much of a bashing as the OP might want...


----------



## lusifer

Stelios, lamp lookig good but for 400 euros need have separate order emitters and led battery indicators to be a good caving light. 
cells? not so easy to change in darkness. take look proffesional caving lights like rude nora, pulsar or scurion.

one question: who needs 6 type of strobos in cave?


----------



## Stelios Zacharias

lusifer said:


> Stelios, lamp lookig good but for 400 euros need have separate order emitters and led battery indicators to be a good caving light.
> cells? not so easy to change in darkness. take look proffesional caving lights like rude nora, pulsar or scurion.
> 
> one question: who needs 6 type of strobos in cave?



Hi Lusifer, 

I am going to guess that you are not a caver, or have only recently become a caver. Changing batteries in a cave (or even refilling the acetylene bottle) is something cavers don't really do in the dark because we carry a second source of light or we cave with a buddy. Even so, changing batteries in the dark, (or even on rope) is something we have had to do from time to time. The bells and whistles of a Scurion (projected LED displays for battery life, etc) are what the buyer pays big bucks for, when all we need from a caving light is a known degree of reliability. 

This light is reliable, bright and practical. If it doesn't have enough gimmicks for you, it does not mean it does not appeal to cavers. 

From what I hear from friends, the strobe mode is something useful for cave divers - I have never had a reason to use the strobe mode myself. I have the go-pro mount on the helmet and use it also as a head torch in camp on the headband (supplied) - the go-pro mount means it comes off and attaches easily. I don't cycle nor do I dive, but I have friends who use the lamp for both activities. 

I used to cave with a Princeton Tec Apex (modded for waterproofing as per the directions on the caves.org forums years ago) and cycled through three or four on their warranty system - waterproofing was OK in the last few. I had one of the original old Zebralights for backup. The Princeton Tec was meant to be daylight balanced, but always gave a slightly green hue in photos. Now I have the Phaethon and the Zebra round my neck for backup and I am happy with this setup, although since switching I have not had to use the Zebra underground for anything other than lighting bugs for macro photography. I am sure we'll see more of the Phaethons in use as time goes on - there are not currently that many around. I was an early adopter, something unusual for me, but I was close to the source and the light was economical compared to other brands with the same outputs. 

Moorshire, I hope it makes it to your list as it's a good little light. 

Cheers, 
Stelios


----------



## lusifer

Stelios i caving over 20 years 
i ask you who need 6 type of strobos in cave :twothumbs 
i tell you again, this light is nice but with horribe setup. is new, probable with time this be better.
there is stock driver (how many, 10-20 usd?) there is cheap and ugly plate emmiter 5 usd, two cells 15 usd, switch for 8 usd, headstrap for 4 usd) 
what cost other 300 euros? 
i think You produce this light  because first phaeteon not have this boxes (any boxes) and this switches. 
i think this is bike light more than caving.

if you are experienced caver, you know how spot can be bad in tight places or on rope.

for photo ask professionals, how spot is bad for close shooting, also flood for long distance. 

proffesional caving light need have two separate order type of beam , ask cavers for that. 

you can buy any light for caving. many caver have cheap chinese headlamp. more sexy 'CAVING' light like this:




(gopro support passed on bottom hole) you pay 45usd (4 modes + 1 STROBO)


----------



## lusifer

best looking light. smallest, oval, good CAVING setup. https://www.facebook.com/pages/Sbrasa/330156007104376


----------



## lusifer

http://www.pulsarlights.eu/


----------



## lusifer

http://www.littlemonkeycaving.co.uk/Pages/Nora2shop.aspx


----------



## Stelios Zacharias

lusifer said:


> i tell you again, this light is nice but with horribe setup. is new, probable with time this be better.
> there is stock driver (how many, 10-20 usd?) there is cheap and ugly plate emmiter 5 usd, two cells 15 usd, switch for 8 usd, headstrap for 4 usd)
> what cost other 300 euros?
> i think You produce this light  because first phaeteon not have this boxes (any boxes) and this switches.



Whatever - I don't know how you make your price estimates and I don't care. 
I do not produce this light - my hands are not coordinated to work the machinery for cutting the aluminium for the housing and battery case (these parts you have conveniently omitted from your pricing). I don't know what you are talking about boxes and switches.

Cheers, 
Stelios


----------



## lusifer

you have 3 post in 7 years and 3 post only for defend this lamp? 

you use this light past year? aluminum battery box is new product. piezo switch on this lamp is new too, before was plastic. how you use this product much before is produced? 
lamp need be made by electronics not mechanic. cnc drill aluminum of this lamp cost 300 euro :thinking:

battery box fixing is not for professional caving, tight places will broke this rubber strap. 

caving specialised lamp not need backup light and hex wrench for change batteries. 

phateon is nice lamp but this is BIKE not CAVING lamp.


----------



## lusifer

beautiful and original, not CAVING specialised but can take : 
http://www.lupine.de/deu/produkte/lampenkoepfe/piko-1200-lumen-13w


----------



## Stelios Zacharias

lusifer said:


> you have 3 post in 7 years and 3 post only for defend this lamp?
> you use this light past year? aluminum battery box is new product. piezo switch on this lamp is new too, before was plastic. how you use this product much before is produced?



I answered in the thread because I have used the light and someone was asking about it. You have made 18 posts in ten days against this lamp, and you question my motives? Nice sophistry. 

I have been on the forum since 2007, when I first bought the Apex and the Zebralight that I was using until now. When I saw here that some users asked questions about a lamp I have used (and have helped to develop by using protoype stages and giving feedback to the guys making it), I wished to answer, based on my experiences from use. Especially as there was some guy with a fresh account writing negative things about a lamp he knows only from photographs. 

The switch was plastic - yes, it was not good enough for diving below 20m and was replaced. Is it wrong to improve the product? Aluminium battery box is indeed also new, we used to carry the batteries at waist height in a tin that looked like an Arianne generator. Again, is it wrong to improve the product?

Cheers, 
Stelios


----------



## Mooreshire

The purpose of this thread is not to share links to headlamps you've spotted online. If someone has personally and happily been using a certain headlamp for caving which is not on my list but which meets the criteria then by all means please tell me about it... but these "this lamp looks interesting", "this lamp sucks", and "has anyone ever seen one of these before" posts are getting way off-topic. Please feel free to make your own thread for those sorts of discussions, thanks.


----------



## lusifer

Stelios any update is welcome!! for now this is overpriced bike light with 6 type of strobos. cheers


----------



## lusifer

Mooreshire, i think forum is for discussion.
if you want review only this is another thing but you need change title. all post here is spam :thinking:
your list need be updated with new models and manufacturers.
you already know best world CAVING lamp, what's the point ??


----------



## Mooreshire

Don't listen to me, I'm not the internet police. Post whatever you want. lovecpf

Let's discuss:

The Phaethon, DVLS, Stoots, MidiLED, and Sbrasa lamps are not "readily available on the English language mail order market". In other words, if I do a Google search for them I won't find a straightforward way to order one.

The Rude Nora, El Speleo, and Pulsar lamps are already on the list.

The Viperlight stopped being sold a half decade ago.

I've already discussed the idea of including bike lights which are helmet-mountable like the Lupines in the list but decided against it unless a certain bike light becomes especially popular for underground use. As of right now, it's still uncommon enough to see them underground that I don't think I'll be adding a bunch of bike lights to the list any time soon.

If anyone knows of any headlamps that folks are happily using as their main caving lamp, and they meet the criteria I've laid out for my list, then I'm eager to hear about them. :naughty:


----------



## Mooreshire

Let me elaborate on the Phaethon availability issue: A dedicated person might scroll far enough down on the Google search results to find their way to the Facebook page for the Phaethon, but if they want to find out how to order one they will need to do some digging... they'd need to click through to see other folks' posts on their page, translate a French post from June asking about ordering procedures, and in the replies there is a post saying that international inquiries should be emailed in English to a certain address. That's pretty tricky if you ask me.

If I added the Phaethon to the list, dozens of people would promptly email me asking how they can order one. If the Phaethon folks made a website with an order page, or if other distributors started selling them on their English sites, I'll add it. If I added it now I'd be answering a lot of questions about availability. I certainly don't mind answering questions from people who find my list, but my answers need to be simple enough that folks can follow the directions - "go to their FB page, open up posts from others, translate the French post from June 30th, note email address in reply" is just too convoluted. Hopefully that made sense. I imagine that before too long those guys will either make a website for themselves or someone else will start selling them to English speakers (like the El Speleo, which has an authorized English language re-seller with their own site).

Edit: I've brought up the issue on the Electric Caving Lamps group on Facebook, and tagged the Phaethon folks in the post. So, hopefully they know that it's not apparent how an English speaker is supposed to get their hands on one.


----------



## lusifer

here, most popular lamp is PICO LUPINE. great bike and multipurpose lamp






if you planed put bike lamps or your list, please be fair with this.
most using bike lights in caves arround the world or best bikes lights or similar...
dildo lamps with 4,5,6,7 strobos nobody need in cave. i wish you all the best


----------



## divanster

Hello currently Pulsar have 2 models:
Pulsar Explorer and Pulsar Magnetic 
Battery boxes are three types: Helmet battery box , 4 Diving Battery box , 2 Cell battery box


----------



## Mooreshire

Phaethon lamps were added to the list with a separate entry for each of their two versions. The Armytek Tiara was added too, but the A1 and C1 versions were combined into one entry with the "pro" variations mentioned in the upgrades/options column. Scurion run-times were updated to reflect their having switched to newer batteries. Also maybe some other updates I've forgotten about. As always, let me know if anyone spots any errors.


----------



## Mooreshire

I've added the Manley20 to the list, updated the Black Diamond Icon and Petzl MYO, and tweaked a few other fields. I'm still cleaning up the El Speleo entries, which had comprised of outdated models with higher prices. Thanks once again to everyone who has emailed me with updates and suggestions.


----------



## eh4

I'm not a caver but I love climbing around underground when I get the opportunity, exploring in general. 
Since Zebralights are already part of your discussion I'd like to mention that I've mocked up a simple setup to hold an H602W with an H600W directly below it, or vice versa, just gotta get a helmet. 
There's redundancy and a really nice variety of beam combinations, and each light can be swiveled up or down independently. 
Anyhow I wanted a nice caving light for the next time I get the opportunity, and I thought that this combo would make for a versatile quasi budget alternative, especially considering their non caving uses.
I'd love to get a Phaethon, the Dual Zebras setup is itself sort of a Phaethon surrogate. 

Also: http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb...guy-Two-thoughts-here-for-talented-machinists


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## Mooreshire

I've seen a fair number of cavers with Zebralights mounted together in flood+spot pairs like that. Very popular arrangement.


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## eh4

Great minds.


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## GeoBruin

It's funny I independently thought of doing the same thing. 2 zebras mounted on top of each other. Now I don't know if I should work on a bracket for that setup or a way to power an h602 from multiple cells.


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## eh4

Do both! 
I've attempted to order spare tail caps from ZL, the advice a got from customer service was to order head straps and then change the order to tail caps in the order notes... So I did that and I'll find out if I'm getting spare tail caps or unwanted straps in a few days.

Edit: 
on May 15 two tail caps arrived.


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## GeoBruin

Wow. Good to know. Thanks for the report.


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## eh4

You bet! 
I suspect you'll get a functional version done before I even get a working glans interface/dummy battery insert figured out. 
Another thought for dual mounting H600 and H602W with external batteries is that maybe only one of them needs the extended capacity. I find that I tend to run the H602W on higher levels and mostly use the H600W on lower levels to give some additional throw to the H602W's flood, just enough that it balances my center and peripheral view, otherwise I get the sensation of seeing better peripherally than straight ahead. Occasionally bumping H600 up on high for a minute and then back down to support role for H602. 
This would also spread the benefits and the liabilities between the two lights, the single battery light may run out sooner, while the other shines on during the battery change. 
On the other hand, the self contained single cell light will shine on while dealing with any problems with the extended cable/battery case. 
-then you could still carry spare tail caps in case the extended case had to be resigned to mere battery storage.


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## GeoBruin

eh4 you're a genius! You've inspired me and I took advantage of the long weekend to work on our little project. 

The cable gland was actually easy and I'm super impressed with the part. Just drilled a whole in the tail cap, stuck it through and tightened the nut on the inside. The hard part was the dummy battery insert. Imagine two dummy 16340 cells. I drilled a hole lengthwise through the first one (closest to the tailcap) so I could run the positive battery wire completely through it. I then soldered the positive battery wire to the second spacer. I placed a thin foam insulator between the two dummy cells. I then soldered the negative battery wire to the first dummy cell so it makes contact with the gland/tailcap with gentle pressure from the spring in the head of the light. Once I put the whole thing together, I used some 3/4 shrink wrap to hold it all together as a single unit. 

The waterproof connectors are also very robust. They have a nice o ring and thread together tightly. 

The I tried two methods of making a battery pack: For both methods, I soldered some heavy wire between the two positive sides and then again between the negative sides. I then soldered the leads to the waterproof connector. I held it all together with some electrical tape. This is where the two methods varied. My first attempt was to plasti-dip the entire things including about an inch of the connector. I did two coats. I thought I had it a little thick but when it dried, it hardened up nice. For the second attempt, I used rescue tape. I had never used it before but wanted to try it. That stuff is ridiculous. I screwed up about half way through and tried to pull the tape off... IMPOSSIBLE. It fuses to itself so well it will rip before it comes unstuck. I made a second attempt, wrapping the whole pack plus a couple inches of the connecting wire. It turned out really well and I'm super happy with it. I've considered re-doing the plasti-dipped pack but I figure I'll use both and see how they hold up. In either case, I'm very confident in the waterproofness of both packs. I used some old unprotected laptop cells so once I settle on my ideal design, I'll do the same with some high capacity protected cells and just recycle the connectors. 

So now I had something that didn't really have a compatible head strap. Time to break out the sewing machine! I started with a strap that came with a Malkoff MDC. I added some additional velcro in strategic locations including in front above the stock velcro, in the back, and some additional on the sides. I then made up some elastic holders for the battery pack, the cable, the auxiliary front light, and a spare cell holder for the other side. 

Okay, enough talk... time for pictures!


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## hazza

Wow, that is some heroic modding! A job well done! 

What make/model are the waterproof connectors?


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## GeoBruin

You can look on Amazon for "LEDJump® Male Female Plug 2 Pin LED Waterproof Connector Cable Black (5-pack)" for the connectors and "Stainless Steel PG7 3.0-6.5mm Waterproof Connector Cable Gland 3 Pcs" for the glands. Sorry for not linking... I always end up getting my hand slapped for linking directly to products.


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## eh4

Hey that's pretty slick! 
Especially for the first one. 
Looks comfortable and the balance looks good.

So your battery packs will charge together in parallel through the cable, those are going to be lighter end more compact than boxes, maybe more prone to damage. 
The nicest ready made battery box I've been able to find so far is a surplus/discontinued Rude Nora box at http://www.customduo.co"DOT"uk/Pages/RudeBox.aspx 
-replace "DOT" 
I've blown my budget for now on a nice helmet, and 60$ is pretty rich for a little case but it's the nicest one I've seen by far, will hold three 18650, check it out. 


Your dummy battery looks good, I'm going to try and leap frog it using one piece, maybe pvc, maybe with an epoxy plug poured in the end to hold the + terminal securely. I'd like it to be anchored to the tail cap maybe threaded on, probably with the spring removed, it'll have to be able to come apart when the cable needs replacing. 
This is as far as I've gotten:




I think that the ability to independently tilt the lights is going to be useful. 




I definitely need batteries or other ballast on the back. Only slightly annoying as is but I can tell that the front heavy loading would get more distracting over time.

"You can look on Amazon for "LEDJump® Male Female Plug 2 Pin LED Waterproof Connector Cable Black (5-pack)" for the connectors and "Stainless Steel PG7 3.0-6.5mm Waterproof Connector Cable Gland 3 Pcs" "

-Great, that was my next question. ;-)


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## Mooreshire

Great job GeoBruin! Thanks for sharing.


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## GeoBruin

Thanks all! 
eh4, I would happily send you a cable gland and connectors in exchange for one of those extra tailcaps...

I fully committed to this project without having an extra in hand. If you need both, I'll just try your method of ordering from ZL.

Yes, I thought about a battery box as well and I may do something like that for a helmet mount but for the head strap, I wanted to stay as light and minimal as possible. Also, I'm using up a cache of old laptop cells so I'm not worried about recovering the cells. That site says 60 pounds not 60 dollars. Did you see it discounted somewhere? That would be spendy. I found a Fenix box I liked but would have to hack it to put the cells in parallel.


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## eh4

Huh, that's a thought. 
I was just ordering those right now, got distracted and checked back here on the way back to the amazon tab.
PM me your mailing address and I'll shoot a tail cap to you tomorrow.

Edit, ouch, yes I just read the Nora box as $, it's even worse than I thought. 
Yeah if you're not banging the batteries on stuff I think your light weight solution is best too. 
I'll probably be doing the same here at first, don't see a good box solution materializing very quickly.

PM sent.


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## hazza

eh4 said:


> Edit, ouch, yes I just read the Nora box as $, it's even worse than I thought.
> Yeah if you're not banging the batteries on stuff I think your light weight solution is best too.
> I'll probably be doing the same here at first, don't see a good box solution materializing very quickly.



I was thinking that an affordable 2x 18650 waterproof case must exist...but I seem to be wrong. GeoBruin - I think I'd thought of the same Fenix case as you, but it goes against the grain to hack apart something nice like that!  I spotted a couple of 4x 18650 "waterproof" cases on eBay which have the cells in a 2x2 configuration. This isn't really the right shape and 4 cells might be too much weight. They also look like they may be wired in series, unfortunately.


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## GeoBruin

I've seen some of the same 4 cell holders. They're all laid out as 2S2P. That would be great for anything except a ZL which can only handle a single Li Ion worth of voltage. 

I'm not too sure how tricky it would be to modify the Fenix box. The hardest part would be working down inside the box. It's cheap enough it might be worth giving it a shot.


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## eh4

The square packs that hold four is no good, for my purposes I think 3 packed flat is the way to go if in a box. 
One nice thing about the sealed 2 pack that GeoBruin made is that you could carry X number of spare sealed packs and there's only the connector swap to worry about for water, etc. You could probably switch packs in the rain real quick by loosening and fastening the connector under your hat brim or hood. 
I'm thinking now to make sealed, dipped packs like GeoBruin did, and find or form a Non water proof aluminum case to hold them, just to provide some armoring. Drill holes in the bottom for drainage.


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## uk_caver

That's neat.
I guess 'rescue tape' is self-amalgamating rubber?

Do you find it tries to amalgamate to anything else once a pack is wrapped, or does the outside harden fairly quickly?

I've made many NiMH packs out of 3x 18650-ish cells, and for waterproofing them I use self-amalgamating tape, but then cover it in clear heatshrink to stop the pack sticking to things (especially other packs) and to stop the rubber getting damaged if people throw a spare pack in a bag or pocket full of other things.

Also, since most of my caving friends use these packs, they need to be easily distinguished, and the clear heatshrink allows for easy permanent marking. I cut squares of reflective food packaging and write initials+pack number on the silver side, then slip them under the heatshrink before heating.


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## psychbeat

Digging the Zebra mod!

There are some really nice high amperage connectors on hobbyking FYI. I'm ordering some for my Kavelight soon which is pulling ~8-9ish amps haha.


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## eh4

Regarding the programmability of using dual flood and a spot ZL headlamps:
H600mkii on 3.5-11 lumens/1-2 week duration with H602 on 65 lumens/30 hour works really well for me within 20-30 feet, very comfortable working, seeing tools and moving around, while still not too bright for arms length. 
Likewise H600mkii on 65 lumens/30 hours with H602 on 330 lumens/4 hours duration looks really balanced to my eye for longer range.
So there's still a little more flood power available and a whole lot more wide spot power on tap.


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## uk_caver

I've been making/using mixable lights since early Luxeon days, and my favourite general movement mix is a flood with just a hint of spot.
In my case, with a fairly tight spot, a 9:1 ratio is enough to add meaningful range for general movement without spoiling the flood feel (and while consuming relatively insignificant power).


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## eh4

uk_caver said:


> I've been making/using mixable lights since early Luxeon days, and my favourite general movement mix is a flood with just a hint of spot.
> In my case, with a fairly tight spot, a 9:1 ratio is enough to add meaningful range for general movement without spoiling the flood feel (and while consuming relatively insignificant power).



Right, a little bit of warm/neutral spot for the fovea centralis!
I gotta make sure that I'm eating enough lutein and zeaxanthin.

"The fovea has a high concentration of the yellow carotenoid pigments lutein and zeaxanthin. They are concentrated in the Henle fiber layer (photoreceptor axons that go radially outward from the fovea) and to a lesser extent in the cones.[14][15] They are believed to play a protective role against the effects of high intensities of blue light which can damage the sensitive cones. The pigments also enhance the acuity of the fovea by reducing the sensitivity of the fovea to short wavelengths and counteracting the effect of chromatic aberration.[16] This is also accompanied by a lower density of blue cones at the center of the fovea.[17] The maximum density of blue cones occurs in a ring about the fovea. Consequently, the maximum acuity for blue light is lower than that of other colours and occurs approximately 1° off center."
- http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fovea_centralis


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## enki_ck

I'm on the verge of buying an El Speleo Gnoma but I'd like to hear your thoughts on it. Likes and dislikes.

My main plus is also my main minus, the battery holder. No descent means attaching it and rather large/not so streamline size and shape but still the abillity to use 3 different battery setups.


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## enki_ck

Nobody?


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## uk_caver

Would you be happy with a light that has a single beamshape?

Personally, I don't think I would, but I have used twin-beam lights for a very long time.


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## enki_ck

I haven't seen one in person yet (fairly new light) so can't say much about the beam but by the looks of the pics it's 3 smooth reflectors which should provide a good spot, and as there are 3 of them, also a good amount of flood. Should make for an interesting and usable beam. 

I've been looking into tge Rescue model but the battery pack doesn't appeal to me. I like to have options to buy separate batteries and not depend on the manufacturer and pricey packs. I think one is about $40. 

I do understand your point though and know the benefits of flood or throw in certain situations.


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## enki_ck

Seems the Rescue will soon be available with the Gnoma battery tube for a  26650, 18650, 3AA or 3AAA battery option. Only need the funds.


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## lusifer

seems ok but rescue is better.
what you mean about new Rude nora 2xs ?
http://www.littlemonkeycaving.co.uk/Pages/Nora2xsspecification.aspx


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## preetlove

here are the list of top ranked headlamps:
1. Coast HL7
2. Black Diamond ReVolt
3. Black Diamond Icon
4. Black Diamond Storm
5. Black Diamond Spot


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## psychbeat

My H600w MKII has held up with some VERY rough use and even underwater a few times swimming up a river. 
Haven't done any serious spelunking with it but DH mtn biking & general heavy use on the trail in rain/mud.


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## lusifer

pulsar magnet lamp produce horrible sound when working. extremly loud sound. italians caver call it helicopter


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## lusifer

found on fb. pulsar magnet lamp. 
don't pay poop :toilet: buy Rude Nora :twothumbs

[video]https://vid.me/UmfO[/video]


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## lusifer

http://ignivi.com/index-en.html 
new headlamp, look very nice but huge and heavy!
price is not popular, runnigtime too
box of battery is great!!


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## divanster

No more sound with Pulsar. Now it have new powerful driver, quiet and also new battery boxes using lose batteries, button system of Explorer model now are made from aluminium.


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## dirkomatic

I know life gets in the way, but I've found lots of updates which should probably be made to the original spreadsheet.

These are just changes I can think of off the top of my head from personal experience:

Add new version of Black Diamond Storm
Update Black Diamond Icon to new version
Add Thrunite TH10 & TH20
Add Fenix HL55 (Actually the list of all Fenix lights on the spreadsheet is pretty outdated)
Add Nitecore HC30 (Same with Nitecore)
Add Skilhunt H02 & H03
Add Xtar Warboy H3
Add Imalent HR20

And I have no idea about the current slate of Armytek and Zebralight....


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## the Kwan

I have been using an independent makers caving lamp for a little while now for caving and it is well impressive, made to order but reasonably cheap and fantastic quality and functionality.
http://www.ledcaplamps.com/


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## dirkomatic

the Kwan said:


> I have been using an independent makers caving lamp for a little while now for caving and it is well impressive, made to order but reasonably cheap and fantastic quality and functionality.
> http://www.ledcaplamps.com/



Nice looking lights... Too bad they are only available in the UK


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## the Kwan

dirkomatic said:


> Nice looking lights... Too bad they are only available in the UK


sorry Dirkomatic, I didnt notice that, but yes quality kit.


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