# Machining Titanium vs Stainless Steel



## xochi (Apr 2, 2006)

I've seen the huge premium in the price for most of the short run ti lights on CPF. While more difficult to machine than aluminum , I've figured that the price premium is usually because the ti versions are also "Super Premium limited" versions and marketed to those deep pocketed individuals who wanted something extra. They _were_ and still are to an extent, novel. 

Peak sold two ti models for very reasonable prices and then withdrew them citing manufacturing costs. My questions are these:

1. How much harder to machine (if at all) is the commonly used Titanium alloy than Stainless steel (like peak SS)?

2. I know Ti is more expensive but ti is still cheap in comparison to these lights. I'm guessing that none of the ti lights sold thus far have more than 10-12 dollars in ti material in them. I've seen cheap solid ti watches and knives. Is the supply of titanium unreliable or something?

3. What's a best guess for increases in production costs to make a laser engraved , non-anodized Arc AAA style light?


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## Morelite (Apr 2, 2006)

Ti is very similar in respect to machining 316 grade stainless steel.

Most of the smaller lights will still use at least 3" of Ti round stock (Don's and Mr. Bulks lights probably consume close to 6") 
1" of 1" diameter round stock of Ti is about $12 verses less than a $1 for Al and $3 for SS.

Machining may have a cost factor in there as well. The tooling is no different, but the shop will wear-out tooling faster or need to resharpen more often, plus there is an increase in coolant usage. 

I quessing that the biggest price factor is the rarity of lights being made of Ti.

Just my thoughts.
I know I would pay the premium price for a Ti light over brass, stainless, etc, providing I like the light in the first place, I'm not going to buy a light just because it is Ti.


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## RPM (Apr 2, 2006)

To compare machining titanium to stainless steel, you have to know what kind of stainless. 303se and 303su can be machined with much higher spindle speeds than 304, 316, and others. We machine 13-8, 15-5, and 17-4 stainless daily and depending on the heat treating, prefer to machine titanium. For an average , titanium is running $50 to $70 dollars per pound, while various stainless can range from $2.50 TO $22 per pound, again depending on type and availability. For the same mass, titanium is lighter (.163 lbs per cubic inch) than stainless (.284 lbs per cubic inch). I am amazed by the drama titanium has created in our hobby! Although very expensive, it is by no means as hard to machine as some would make it seem. Granted, I am talking about modern CNC equipment here, not lightweight manual machines.


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## McGizmo (Apr 2, 2006)

xochi,

I am no expert and probably incompetent in regards to the Ti machining I have done. I have had success but at an expense in cutting tools that would preclude me from even thinking about offering my machine time and work in regards to using Ti. I have learned to go to the experts for machined Ti parts and there are not too many of these! There are expert machine shops who take a stab at Ti and find it more of a challenge than initially anticipated!

In getting parts quoted from shops than can be successful in providing Ti components, the premium over Al is based on three aspects that come to mind:

1) cost of raw material
2) cost and wear depreciation on cutting tools
3) Machine time of components

I won't waste my time in trying to figure out the differences between Ti VS other materials and how they relate to the aspects mentioned above but I know from experience that these differences are discounted by folks not familiar with the process and this includes commercial machine shops that venture into machining Ti with no real experience! I am familiar with short runs of Ti lights that have been terminated and are not welcome for revisiting and I sugest that initial prices of those offerings be considered suspect or averaged with the prices it would take to get the shop back in the Ti machining business!!!

Relative to machined components in Al, parts I have had made in both Ti and AL have seen a difference factor range from approximately 5:1 to 10:1 in machined component, unit price.

Now in my case and based on the price differentials I have paid, I don't charge from 5 to 10 X more for a Ti version because the Ti components are only part of the full assembly. 

It is important to keep in mind that if a Ti part is billet based and requires removal of significant material, the machine time cost is very significant and can't fairly be compared to a forged or cast component. Forgings and castings are not even considered unless significant economies of scale can justify the toolng costs! 

I digress..........

No idea of guessing at the price of an Arc AAA style in Ti beyond a hip shot of 2X to 5X the price of an Al version.

Oh yeah,
If you can come up with the billet required for the lights I have had made at a price of $10 to $12 total per set, please do so and I will buy all you can provide! Your guess here is so far off from my experience that I find it rather irritating yet I doubt your intent is to irritate those of us who have delved into Ti components! :nana: If it is your intent, then by all means, please show the way and be a hero in doing so!!

EDIT from initial composition:

I see Morelite's comments have arrived while I have been pecking at the keys.

An Al part may take .5 minutes to machine whereas the same part in Ti may take 3 minutes to machine on a CNC machine. A difference in units per hour is probably the largest contributor to an ultimate price difference and yet it seems this is the most overlooked difference both by laymen as well as machinists who have not yet _been there_.

At $80/ ft and with the example of 6", the material cost alone would be $40. Compare this to the cost of a half foot of 1" Al. Tool failure with resultant scrap is also a little bonus that comes up on ocassion.

I am no expert and won't pretend to be. I leave it to those of you who are.


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## xochi (Apr 2, 2006)

Thanks for the info guys. 

I'm certainly talking from my backside on Ti prices and not in an effort to rankle, just ignorance. Also please understand that my intent isn't to discredit anyones pricing of anything, the dynamics of our hobby sized runs is something entirely unto itself. 

The main reason for my questions is I can't afford custom lights and even when I do buy them they end up being shelf queens and rarely users. When I want something new , something old goes on the block. This is really just because I can't bring myself to mess up something so pricey. I've been around long enough that the thrill of super brightness has worn off and I've a greater appreciation for the right amount of light at the right time. 

So, seeing that Don has managed to donate his characteristic eloquence to this thread (Don, I hope that smoke I'm blowing doesn't tickle :devil: )I want the right tool for the job _and I want it to be special and titanium. _

I want a non luxeon (or cheap as a 5mm) AAA based ti light! I figure if all the bells and whistles of the myriad beam blasting teflon and carbon fiber coated superlights are filed down I'd end up with a titanium arcaaa-ish light that will be all I need 95% of the time. 

But no one wants to make them :mecry:. Even when the idea does come up, the deep pocketed technolusting junkies on this site clamor for a creation beyond this mortal man's finances and the mutation from hallmark of quality and affordability becomes a frankensteinian freak of fantastic brightness and expensive batteries. Well maybe this hasn't _really _happened but no one seems to want to make something sublime and practical (and affordable in Ti).

I figured that if I could learn a little about what's really involved it might be a little easier to convince someone to take a stab... 

Don, it really would be ashame for your AAA design not to see the light of day. Make two versions, one simple round tube type for us financially challenged types and the good one for collectors, both ti though. 

Oh, almost forgot, the ti vs SS comparison was used because Peak apparently is quite comfy with SS but discontinued working with the titanium. They did say a short run might be done though.


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## cy (Apr 2, 2006)

xochi said:


> Peak sold two ti models for very reasonable prices and then withdrew them citing manufacturing costs. My questions are these:


was fortunate enough to purchase the two peak ti lights mentioned. Peak ti CR123 version is pretty slippery due to nothing to grab on to. this combined with ti thread gauling makes for a pita to use light. (there's so many peak names , I give up trying to remember??)

Peak ti AAA 3 led version is a real sweetheart. that's the one I'm really impressed with. bezel has flats to grab on to, making all the differance in ease to operate. 

I suspect Peak sold these two ti lights at or below costs.


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## xochi (Apr 2, 2006)

just had to rub that in , didnja, Cy?


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## Vee3 (Apr 3, 2006)

Titanium is a silly choice of material for a flashlight. I've seen it used for many manufactured items where the only benefit is to the seller who can dupe someone into paying for it.

I work for a manufacturer of medical implants where the benefits of Ti are obvious and numerous. If we could make them out of aluminum or an easily machined SS like 303, we would do it - At a fraction of the cost of Ti. 

It all comes down to application requirements. Flashlights do not need to be made out of Ti for any reason other than the "lookie here what I got" factor...


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## mobile1 (Apr 3, 2006)

Well most has been said already. Aside from the mentioned things, the TI versions take more time to polish. And in our case (GatLight) we press the bars through the center housing (pressure fit). Doing this with Titanium causes the TI to cold weld together (galling) - as a result doing the pressing takes much more time and we have a special manual process.
Also machining in our case takes 3 times longer. As a result the cost increases - and in our case our margin on the titanium units is actually less then on the AL/SS units. Also TI runs require a new setup/programming and since the runs are smaller costs are higher - so I don't think if you factor in real costs, that the TI flashlight units are overpriced in fact its probably the opposite.


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## tino_ale (Apr 3, 2006)

Vee3 said:


> Titanium is a *silly choice* of material for a flashlight. I've seen it used for many manufactured items where the only benefit is to *the seller who can dupe someone* into paying for it.
> [...]
> Flashlights do not need to be made out of Ti for any reason other than the "*lookie here what I got*" factor...


That's quite a insult to those custom titanium light makers  
I do not share your point of view, nor do I find your supposedly "I know what I'm talking about" speech convincing.


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## aosty (Apr 3, 2006)

tino_ale said:


> That's quite a insult to those custom titanium light makers
> I do not share your point of view, nor do I find your supposedly "I know what I'm talking about" speech convincing.



You think you're pissed... wait until his wife finds out her diamond is fake!

:whoopin: :mecry:


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## tino_ale (Apr 3, 2006)

I wouldn't say that I'm pissed, but I don't understand the purpose of the tone of the post... Quite a lack of respect. I don't like it, that's all...


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## aosty (Apr 3, 2006)

tino_ale said:


> I wouldn't say that I'm pissed, but I don't understand the purpose of the tone of the post... Quite a lack of respect. I don't like it, that's all...



Agreed... 

Vee3 - "duped" is an inappropriate term... unless someone was trying to sell a ti light that was really made of something else.

Silly? Perhaps.
Overkill? Perhaps.
Overpriced? Not when there are buyers lined up.


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## Christoph (Apr 3, 2006)

Ti is currently in vogue and it is a pretty poor thermal conductor however it is light and strong (makes good clips,shamless plug) and has excellent non corrosive properites and takes color soo nicely.Most of the people I've talked to if presented with two like produducts would buy the ti over (insert your fav metal) just for the coolness factor.My self included .
C:duck:


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## NeonLights (Apr 3, 2006)

As I've said before, I like titanium as much for its function (lightweight and strong) as I do its form. I wear my ARC AAA-P on a titanium chain. Sure something SS would do just fine for a lot less cost, but I like titanium. My wedding ring is titanium as is my Zippo lighter and a watch I wear frequently. My favorite knife (Buck Mayo TNT) has ti handles too. I've used titanium hardware on a car I used to own to decrease weight while maintainong strength. I don't consider any of my ti purchases to be outrageous, my Zippo, knife, and watch all cost around $100, everything else was less. I'd pay $80-100 for an ARC AAA made out of titanium or a similarly sized light with good output. I probably won't pay $200 or $300 or $400 for a titanium light no matter how good it is, but making a light like the ARC even lighter and tougher (and maybe smaller)with titanium would be great IMO.

I don't car if titanium is "cool" or the latest fad right now, I happen to like titanium, and have for quite awhile. I usually don't go around showing it off or anything, I just like it for my own personal use. 

-Keith


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## Anglepoise (Apr 3, 2006)

Will this be the next thing?
Middle light in picture is '"Damascus" steel. Used in blade manufacturing , it is two different types of steel folded over again and again.
Approx $100 per inch in 1.25" diameter.This, like Ti, has to be 'cool' but is it really all that practical. I don't know.


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## McGizmo (Apr 3, 2006)

I lost a long response post and maybe for the best. 

There are high tech and high performance materials like Ti, carbon fiber, kevlar or spectra that have earned their tag of _cool_ for legitimate reasons and in a battle against entropy where they have prevailed and other materials have failed. The user will choose if he will use these materials as weapons against decay, degradation, failure in use or applications or merely as ornamentation as a symbol of potential not intended to be realized. The user will choose if a choice is available. I want such a choice and I have gladly made it. I make the choice for me and not _lookie here_. My peronal Ti lights and tools will thrive and provide service in my favorite environment; one not suited for the likes of 6061T6 or the 18-8 stainless steels.






Back to topic,

In machining Ti or stainless steel, thermal management is key and failure to control the heat at the cut will result in scrap in parts and tools. Of this I am certain and experienced. :green:


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## cy (Apr 3, 2006)

McGizmo said:


> In machining Ti or stainless steel, thermal management is key and failure to control the heat at the cut will result in scrap in parts and tools. Of this I am certain and experienced. :green:


try drilling thru ti sometimes... if you keep temp down using a sharp bit. you will slowly drill thru, but if you should overheat ti. it will transform into armour. your bit will then turn cherry red and useless. 

what I'm describing probably is technically incorrect. but that's what happens. 

for certain enviroments ti reins supreme. ti is one of the most inert substances known and will laugh off corosive salts and acids. 

here's a shot of mclux ti working in my fireplace. wet ashes' alkaline will destroy aluminum with or without hard anodizing. 

no question ti carries a premium due to additional material and labor costs. but then so do most other premium goods. 

when the oportunity came up to purchase a mclux ti, I jumped on it and will gladly do so again when hopefully the oportunity arises again.


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## Anglepoise (Apr 3, 2006)

cy said:


> what I'm describing probably is technically incorrect. but that's what happens.



I think its called 'work hardening'.I know with SS you have to keep the feed going and pressure on to make the cut. If the tool is blunt or it is not cutting under pressure, then the SS hardens itself. With the small amount of Ti experience I have, I see the the same thing.
I can not knurl Ti. I am not prepared to experiment any more. Tooling and Ti are just too expensive these days. SS knurling,.... no problem.


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## BigHonu (Apr 3, 2006)

I have seen the phenomenon you are talking about with reference to drilling Ti. A friend who works with the material extensively in sheet form calls it 'work hardening', though there may be a more suitable term. If the bit is not sharp, and/or the speed is too high, it can be a real pain to drill. He buys carbide bits by the tens as it is more economical for him (from a time perspective) to change out the bit rather than to sharpen. The same person also turned out a ring from Timascus, and swore he would never do it again. It just took too much time.

Personally, I don't buy Ti tools for the 'lookie here' factor, and I think Don and cy have already stated what I wanted to from a performance standpoint. I would consider anyone who feels that Ti is a 'silly' material to use in flashlights to be lucky as they would have more funds to buy other lights. A side benefit to me is that there will be more opportunities for me to buy a Ti light.


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## thesurefire (Apr 3, 2006)

If Ti can be hardened to incredible levels why is it not commonly used in knife blades? Simpily the price? Would it hold an edge comparable to SS?


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## CNC Dan (Apr 3, 2006)

McGizmo said:


> I am no expert and won't pretend to be. I leave it to those of you who are.



Everything you have said is true.
The greatest factor is time. Ti has to be cut at much lower speeds, and as you may have heard, time is money.


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## karlthev (Apr 3, 2006)

Knife blades have been made of titanium. Ti cannot be tempered to the same hardness as steel. It's just OK as a blade material. As a light body, just the ticket. 



Karl


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## NeonLights (Apr 3, 2006)

karlthev said:


> Knife blades have been made of titanium. Ti cannot be tempered to the same hardness as steel. It's just OK as a blade material. As a light body, just the ticket.
> 
> Karl


Right, as a knife blade it is adequate, but there are a lot better materials for blades. Two of the main uses of a ti knife blade are for underwater (saltwater) use where corrosion could be a problem, and where a non-magnetic material is desired. I like it for the handles on a folding knife, but not as blade material.


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## gregw (Apr 3, 2006)

Don's post (#4) is right on. For those of you who think that Ti is that easy to machine, maybe you should try to do a custom run of Ti flashlights yourself to learn what I've been through this past two months..  The cost of getting the Exolion from CAD drawing to actual prototype was significantly higher than budgeted due to the complicated tail design and the many processes that are required. In fact, the CAD tail almost didn't make it to production due to the machinist not wanting to do it on Ti after finally finishing an Al prototype..  

Vee3, I'm definitely not out to "dupe" anyone here. :shrug: I certainly won't be giving up my day job anytime soon, if this run of Ti Exolion's are any indication of the margins that I can expect from developing and selling a custom Ti flashlight.


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## tvodrd (Apr 3, 2006)

Of course, being inTi, it wouldn't add robustness to add a replaceable bushing to the split ring hole. :green:

Larry


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## HarryN (Apr 3, 2006)

Perhaps another way to discuss Al vs Ti is to look more broadly at available Al alloys and see if these are "adequate" for the task. I chose 7000 series alloys for my "BREEZE" CR2 side x side, because I had just enough experience with Ti (and some interesting Ni alloys) to avoid it.

I do agree that 6000 series Al alloys are fine for many lights, but are too soft for my personal taste. Some of the 2000 series and 7000 series have hardness / strength properties approaching mild steel. They definitely do not have the salt water resistance of Ti.

IIRC, Ti is actually quite reactive, and it is this reactivity which helps it form an exceptional, self healing, protective surface.


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## Anglepoise (Apr 3, 2006)

Hope not too far off topic, but what is the electrical conductivity of two machined Ti surfaces? Example would be a machined male and female thread conducting voltage and current. I know they can gall if not protected but have not seen electrical conductivity discussed.


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## McGizmo (Apr 3, 2006)

Ti is not a great electrical conductor but it is not terrible either. The good news is that oxidized Ti is conductive whereas brass and Al oxide are not electrically conductive. Some electrical contacts and springs are made of stainless steel which is also not real low on resistance but I believe the thinking is that they will outlast and outperform a more conductive metal that is subject to corrosion and oxidation. With constant current engines, any resistance in the supply circuit will cut down on runtime but not be noticible in the light output. With any direct drive or unregulated hot wire, I would guess that the resistance is much more of a consideration and possible concern. :shrug:


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## Anglepoise (Apr 4, 2006)

Thanks for replying. That's very informative.

Obviously there is a tremendous amount of info available online, but most of it is pretty technical and written for heavy duty manufacturing.
I just found, this morning, an excellent page with lots of simple basic stuff on Ti.

http://www.aaamagnetic.com/pages/titanium_info.htm


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## xochi (Apr 4, 2006)

Larry- Huh?????????


Just wanted to point out that there really isn't any comparison with machining Al and Ti but I think that both ti and SS , if not in the same ballpark at least play in the same league but perhaps my ignorance is showing.

Would it make more sense to kind of "design around the material" and use titanium tubing (Gransee mentioned this) coupled with other materials.


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## AilSnail (Apr 8, 2006)

So, can 6-4 be machined with a cheap mini lathe like harbor freight or something? Just one-offs.


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## Morelite (Apr 8, 2006)

AilSnail said:


> So, can 6-4 be machined with a cheap mini lathe like harbor freight or something? Just one-offs.


 
It can, but get yourself some good tooling and you will need a coolant flow setup (you must keep the tool and the Ti cool)


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## Morelite (Jun 5, 2006)

Here is a sample of some Ti parts I made on a Cummins 7x12 mini lathe.

I did strip a pinion gear on the lathe, A bushing seized on a stud then the gear lost a few teeth. I doubt that had anything to do with the material I was working with.

A copy of a PD piston.






A copy of Don's Ti 1x123 battery tube (my ridges are a little flatter by choice)


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## arewethereyetdad (Jun 5, 2006)

Vee3 said:


> Titanium is a silly choice of material for a flashlight. I've seen it used for many manufactured items where the only benefit is to the seller who can dupe someone into paying for it.
> 
> I work for a manufacturer of medical implants where the benefits of Ti are obvious and numerous. If we could make them out of aluminum or an easily machined SS like 303, we would do it - At a fraction of the cost of Ti.
> 
> It all comes down to application requirements. Flashlights do not need to be made out of Ti for any reason other than the "lookie here what I got" factor...



I've bought some Ti lights recently and, although I've posted pics of them, I didn't buy them for the "lookie here what I got factor." I bought them to *use.* My EDC is the Ti McLux 27L-PD. I like Ti because it's tough, it doesn't tarnish, it looks good, and it has a great weight (not too heavy, not too light). I don't give a hoot if it's a good thermal conductor. I just like the look, feel and durability.


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## Morelite (Jun 5, 2006)

arewethereyetdad said:


> I've bought some Ti lights recently and, although I've posted pics of them, I didn't buy them for the "lookie here what I got factor." I bought them to *use.* My EDC is the Ti McLux 27L-PD. I like Ti because it's tough, it doesn't tarnish, it looks good, and it has a great weight (not too heavy, not too light). I don't give a hoot if it's a good thermal conductor. I just like the look, feel and durability.


 
I agree with you dad, I use my McLux III-T everyday and at work it takes everthing imaginable and laughs at it. It still looks like new. If I had my way, all my lights and tools would be made of Ti (within reason).


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## arewethereyetdad (Jun 6, 2006)

Thanks Morelite!


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## EricMack (Jun 6, 2006)

I second what Dad and Morelight said (or do I third it? :huh2: )

My Ti lights are the ones I carry and use most often. The Ti just laughs at events that would seriously scratch, gouge, or mar all the other lights, HA III included. Unfortunately, this we know from experience.  

Thermal conductivity is a valid point. But how many of us run our lights on high for so long that this is ever really a problem? Never has been for me, however what do I know?


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