# When will the R2, R3 and R4 Cree-binned LEDs be available?



## FliGuyRyan (Sep 25, 2007)

I know the Q5 just came out, but does anyone know when the R4 will be released? Is the rumor of the R2 coming by the end of the year true as well?

And, how do they differ honestly? Can someone explain how the "bins" work? I know it's a better quality, but explain why and how please.

Thanks,
Ryan


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## FliGuyRyan (Sep 25, 2007)

Anyone... someone... knowledge requested please... 

*crickets*

...

(Jeopardy music)


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## jasonsmaglites (Sep 25, 2007)

r2 barely by the end of this year. 
r3 and r4 2008


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## easilyled (Sep 25, 2007)

FliGuyRyan said:


> I know the Q5 just came out, but does anyone know when the R4 will be released? Is the rumor of the R2 coming by the end of the year true as well?
> 
> And, how do they differ honestly? Can someone explain how the "bins" work? I know it's a better quality, but explain why and how please.
> 
> ...




Here is a link showing the flux (output) of the different bins for all the
main leds:-

http://img529.imageshack.us/my.php?image=fluxvfig5.jpg

Once you've brought up the page, if you click again, it will magnify it
to show the figures clearly


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## jmoney16 (Sep 25, 2007)

More importantly, when will the X bin rebels be out?!?!


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## FliGuyRyan (Sep 25, 2007)

easilyled, 

First off, what does the chart mean...

jmoney16,

Secondly, how does the X bin rebel compare?

Thanks,
Ryan


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## jmoney16 (Sep 25, 2007)

i got the x bin rebel off the chart

and if the chart is correct the x bin rebel will be 2.3 times brighter (300 lumens) than the r4 cree (130 lumens)


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## FliGuyRyan (Sep 25, 2007)

What rebel do have now in the rebel, and when does the x come out? And does it produce that much with the same amount of power?

Ryan


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## jmoney16 (Sep 25, 2007)

Could be wrong but I *THINK* it's M or N bin right now for rebel, someone else could probably confirm that or give a better answer...as to the X i have no idea, i was being facetious...but according to the chart, yes that is with the same amount of power (350 mA)


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## FliGuyRyan (Sep 25, 2007)

So... it is a for-sure thing that the X bin does indeed exist and is going to come out? So, soon, we'll have like 3000 lumen lights?

Hmm... a 300 lumen Novatc 120P... wow!


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## leprechaun414 (Sep 25, 2007)

Any experts out ther to give some input?


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## jmoney16 (Sep 25, 2007)

I'd wager that the chart more likely is educated guesses extrapolated from previously commercialized LEDs (currently available ones and past ones). If that is the case then the X bin is just a hypothetical conjecture as to what continued development of that product line will lead to.


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## matrixshaman (Sep 26, 2007)

I think some of those bin codes are more like theoretical limits. For example the Luxeon III shows an X bin code producing up to 249 Lumens! U bins were largely unobtanium and have only recently become a bit more common but as far as I know there has never been anything above a U bin Lux III much less an X bin. Maybe a super rare V bin but I don't think I've run across that even. Don't hold your breath for an X bin Rebel. They are pushing ahead much faster now but I don't think they will be common anytime soon.


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## FliGuyRyan (Sep 26, 2007)

I knew it too go to be true. So, how are people making these SSC P4 Maglite mods and getting like 250+ lumens out of one LED? I really want to do one of those, but I have NO idea where to begin. I've seen multiple do-it-yourself threads, but it seems that there are so many different routes to take how do you decide? Any of you done one before?

Thanks,
Ryan

P.S. Also, what's the deal with the Osram Ostar led that have a max of 800+ I see that they're on a migher Mah rating, but still, what's the deal with them and why doesn't anyone talk of them?


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## havand (Sep 26, 2007)

High output, but typically (historically) bad efficiency in comparison to CREE / lumileds. Plus, something about the size of the die and reflectoring...Can't remember. Sorry.


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## LED_Thrift (Sep 26, 2007)

FliGuyRyan said:


> I knew it too go to be true. So, how are people making these SSC P4 Maglite mods and getting like 250+ lumens out of one LED?...


The chart shows the specs for each bin at the drive current listed below each LED type [350mA for most and 700mA for Ostar]. Lumens above that mean the LED is being driven harder than the listed current. At these higher drive currents heat becomes more of an issue and efficiency [run-time] suffers. 




FliGuyRyan said:


> P.S. Also, what's the deal with the Osram Ostar led that have a max of 800+ I see that they're on a migher Mah rating, but still, what's the deal with them and why doesn't anyone talk of them?


As far as I know [I'm no expert] the Ostars need a lot of power to run and make a lot of heat. Not so good for handheld lights, better for uses such as cars. 

At the bottom of each LED type there is a "Vf" section [voltage forward - minimum voltage needed to power the LED]. For the Ostar it lists LEWx2 - I'm not sure what that means exactly.


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## LEDninja (Sep 26, 2007)

IIRC the Ostar is also high voltage 14V or 21V. Most people would not want to carry around a 12D or 18D mag. The trend is towards smaller lights nowadays.


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## FliGuyRyan (Sep 27, 2007)

What cars are using LED headlights? I heard that Lexus and Audi are... who else? And what LEDs are good for this application, only Ostar?


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## light_emitting_dude (Mar 29, 2008)

Anyone else holding out for the R4 bin cree for their next light purchase? Hopefully we will see them by mid year.


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## adnj (May 7, 2008)

I'm still waiting....


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## Fallingwater (May 7, 2008)

They must have hit some kind of problem, as there have been no news whatsoever about anything beyond the R2 (that I know of).


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## djj (May 16, 2008)

Dereelight was selling an R2 pill, but they are gone. Does this indicate some kind of a problem Cree is having with filling the R2 (and higher) bins? Or is the demand for R2's just too high for some flashlight manufacturers to get them? What about higher bins?


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## jtr1962 (May 16, 2008)

As we move further along the efficiency curve it's to be expected that each further efficiency increase will take longer and be less dramatic. Look what happened with hard drives as an analogy. We were doubling capacity each year for a while, and finally for a time it seemed like we were stuck at 500 GB forever. The jump from 500GB to 1 TB took well over 2 years.

Consider that the blue die an R2 uses is probably on the order of 40% efficient at 350 mA. I think the best we've done in the lab at that current has been around 60%. That's a pretty small gap between production and hand-picked lab examples. Even if we tweak the production line to get us close to what was achieved in the lab that's at best a 50% efficiency increase. At this point I'd say Cree is busy figuring out ways to better its lab results. Once that's done, the know-how will trickle down into production. I'm sure based on current state-of-the-art R3 and R4 bins won't be long in coming. I just don't think we'll see much beyond that for a while, at least until maybe Cree announces a 200 lm/W lab sample. We became used to having production advance by 3 or 4 bins per year. We're probably down to 2 at this point. Soon after it may only be one bin per year or less. This is going to be especially true once production blue dice get much past 60 or 70% efficiency. It's going to be harder to identify and eliminate the remaining loss mechanisms.


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## WeLight (May 17, 2008)

The R2 is in limited release which is why is it not in the Cree datasheets, we have stock of WG and WH but delivery is 'as they yield' so not significant qty. I would not be waiting on R3 or R4 at this point as Cree are working on 'new' products which will provide more light not necessarily more efficiency at this point. Efficacy will improve further but more likely late 08 early 09


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## saabluster (May 17, 2008)

WeLight said:


> I would not be waiting on R3 or R4 at this point as Cree are working on 'new' products which will provide more light not necessarily more efficiency at this point.


I was thinking the same thing. As much as I want the XRE line to continue to improve I don't think it is the answer for fixed lighting(takes too many packages to equal existing bulbs). Nor do I think these newer 4 die LEDs are the answer(too complicated to manufacture, power, and limits the methods of directing the light). The "1000 lumen" single die LED that they already previewed is what they need to get to market as fast as possible. This will be the key product to push LEDs into peoples homes.


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## David Gretzmier (Aug 15, 2009)

This thread is over a year old since the last post, yet I'm pretty sure we have not had a bin increase in the xre series. yet it seems every flashlight you see has a cree XRE. I guess R2 is the end of the road on the binning for the XRE?


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## JohnR66 (Aug 15, 2009)

David Gretzmier said:


> This thread is over a year old since the last post, yet I'm pretty sure we have not had a bin increase in the xre series. yet it seems every flashlight you see has a cree XRE. I guess R2 is the end of the road on the binning for the XRE?



Seems like cree is moving to the tiny footprint of the XP-E for single die. The announced XP-G is touted having efficacy of over 130 l/w which is beyond the R2.


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## znomit (Aug 15, 2009)

David Gretzmier said:


> This thread is over a year old since the last post, yet I'm pretty sure we have not had a bin increase in the xre series. yet it seems every flashlight you see has a cree XRE. I guess R2 is the end of the road on the binning for the XRE?



Actually Q5 is the end of the road. R2 doesn't even make it to the datasheets!
http://www.cree.com/products/pdf/XLamp7090XR-E.pdf


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## saabluster (Aug 16, 2009)

znomit said:


> Actually Q5 is the end of the road. R2 doesn't even make it to the datasheets!
> http://www.cree.com/products/pdf/XLamp7090XR-E.pdf


They are still binned as R2s whether or not they are on the PDF. Besides R2 is on the data sheets for the XP-E and since this thread and the question was not LED specific I think this counts. Q5 definitely is not the end of the road.


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## old4570 (Aug 16, 2009)

R2's are available ...

R3 and R4 / Rumor has it - Sept/Oct 09


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## [email protected] (Aug 16, 2009)

old4570 said:


> R2's are available ...
> 
> R3 and R4 / Rumor has it - Sept/Oct 09



R4's are on the marketplace now.


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## saabluster (Aug 16, 2009)

[email protected] said:


> R4's are on the marketplace now.


Do tell? I have yet to see a place where you can buy them.


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## [email protected] (Aug 16, 2009)

saabluster said:


> Do tell? I have yet to see a place where you can buy them.



http://www.cpfmarketplace.com/mp/showthread.php?t=198575

Sorry I wasn't clear. Weaseling one out of David shouldn't be that hard.


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## old4570 (Aug 16, 2009)

we got ourselves lined up for a small batch of XPG R4 emitters! These LED's are rarer than hen's teeth and are literally unavailable to the market. 

"Quote from 4 Sevens ..."


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## saabluster (Aug 16, 2009)

[email protected] said:


> http://www.cpfmarketplace.com/mp/showthread.php?t=198575
> 
> Sorry I wasn't clear. Weaseling one out of David shouldn't be that hard.


It should be that hard as I believe the non-discloser is still in effect. I don't think he would risk being sued just for some quick cash on a run of lights.


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## znomit (Aug 16, 2009)

saabluster said:


> It should be that hard as I believe the non-discloser is still in effect. I don't think he would risk being sued just for some quick cash on a run of lights.



And they are "lined up" for some, meaning they don't have them yet. :sigh:


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## LEDAdd1ct (Aug 16, 2009)

If the expected release date for these lights is September the 28th, I would not be surprised at all if that is when (around when) we will see these emitters available for purchase individually by the general public.


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