# The new Arc-LS



## Gransee (Aug 23, 2007)

This thread is continued from this thread at the MarketPlace.


(as of 7/2007, pictures and other info for the new Arc-LS have been added to this thread)

As you know, I have already announced that I am working on a new version of the Arc-LS. This thread will hopefully organize information that formally was spread among several threads.

The History

The CPF has changed a lot since I originally joined. So, for the really new people:

I designed the Arc product line and started the Arc company. I came up with the name, "Arc" because its short and the hue of early white LEDs reminded me of an electric arc welder.

Like all natural things, there have been easy/hard times in the history of this endeavor. You can read more about the company from the FAQ, wiki, this forum, etc.

Arc Design

As should be evident from our various products, Arc designs tend to favor:

- Utility first
- Minimalist aesthetics
- Mission driven features (types of cell, size, brightness class, etc)
- Utility, customer service, price. Pick two.
- Niche market only

The new Arc-LS

The Arc-LS series was the first flashlight on the market to use a, "high power" LED. First introduced in 2001, it has evolved over several years through various names, features, etc. Each time, getting brighter and most of the time- more useful. You can read about previous generations in the FAQ.

The latest version currently in development will continue this trend. Brighter, smaller, longer run times, easier to upgrade with the latest LEDs, easier to use, more durable, etc.

I do not plan on announcing the price, delivery and other specifications until the development is done. When will that be? Well, research is not always an orderly thing. It is the nature of discovery for it to be somewhat surprising. The project may be done next year, it may not.

I realize some people may not know what a typical (newer) LS series looks like:

- 1x123 cell is the primary power source
- high power LED of some sort
- designed for "EDC Pocket" mission
- usually quite expensive
- durable construction
- multiple output levels

--

Here's the latest progress:

btw, I wrote this with the assumption that our competitors read my posts the most closely.

The prototypes are in their 6th revision. Although the prototypes may look like production lights, there is still a lot to be done. The LED I want to use has been delayed by the manufacturer. In the meantime, I have been working on refining the driver and mechanicals.

You have heard the saying, "you don't plan for the last war, you plan for the next war."

The driver electronics have exceeded the original project goals. Refinements left to do include smoothing out some of the functions, finishing the user interface and automatic functions firmware, adding features to the windows application, etc. This driver is designed to work with a wide variety of LEDs: both those presently available and those yet to come. This is an important feature to me since I believe that the rate of LED improvements will increase. We might see LEDs doubling in brightness every 12 months. I would love to be able to provide an LED upgrade for less than $50. Making upgrades easier would cost us sales only if everyone only bought from us. But that is not how a real market works. This strategy, if it works, will increase our sales while reducing the cost to the consumer and most importantly, take advantage of the latest technologies.

The mechanicals are mostly done but there are a few rough edges. I also am not done making changes to the optical section, the new LED has a lot to do with that tweaking. It currently works with LEDs available now. I have been using those to test the other functions. I can say true 60 lumen is not a problem with the currently available LEDs.

Full power is temperature protected of course. That keeps the LED from being "over driven". The driver can be programmed to protect new LED types if needed. Even though a new led comes out that is x brighter, if you are like me, there is no such thing as a bright enough max power setting. Oh sure, there is such a thing as a, "prudent" level of illumination for a given task, but never arbitrarily cap the maximum power available to the user. We will still want to drive it at the highest possible power while safeguarding its temperature. The battery is usually the weak link, of course those are getting more powerfull as well.

Btw, since this is a single cell Lithium light, it requires less babysiting than multi-cell lights.

The windows interface application is stable and I am glad I have it. I find it very useful for testing the light. If time permits, it would be nice to add more features to the application and make it available to the mod community. I have been cautioned that this would make us more of a software company than a flashlight company with tech support issues and all. Since this interface is sufficiently low level enough to enable a modder to make changes that could damage the hardware, if we did offer it, it would be done with a disclaimer of any resulting damages.

The irony is, this light is more sophisticated than any previous LS but as easy or easier to use.

Yesterday, I invited a small group of local CPF'ers to preview the LS prototypes. I also gave them a quick tour of the windows app and some of the accessories. I had a lot of fun. They can tell you the light is small, bright and easy to use. Easier to use, brighter and smaller than the previous LS (Arc4).


That's it for now. This thread should be used for future discussions of the new LS so as to keep things more organized. Thank you.

Peter


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## ledvador (Aug 24, 2007)

Hi everyone,
May i suggest somthing for the name...
What about Arc CP for "Arc Candle Power"?


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## ChocolateLab33 (Aug 24, 2007)




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## chesterqw (Aug 25, 2007)

waiting for pocket burner...


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## Pax et Lux (Aug 27, 2007)

How about suggesting the worse possible names?

How about Ark Spark!


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## yaesumofo (Aug 27, 2007)

Viren if you were fsmiliar with the PD design you would know that the threads are anodized. The electrical path ispriuvided by the Piston, kilroy and contact area of the head. No power moves through the "body" of the light.

Peter I am very happy to hear that the TI version is not first out of the block.
Ti doesn't add signifigantly enough to the utility of a flashlight of this nature to be worth the extreeme premium.

Peter have you coniddered using 7075?
Sombody mentioned reduced wall thickness. While I prefer the robust nature of thick walled lights. the use of 7075 would allow for thinner walls while maintaining sturctural integredity.
Even moving from 6061 to 7075 would add a great benifit to the long term strength of this light.
It should be worth a look anyway.
Yaesumofo


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## yaesumofo (Aug 27, 2007)

Viren if you were fsmiliar with the PD design you would know that the threads are anodized. The electrical path ispriuvided by the Piston, kilroy and contact area of the head. No power moves through the "body" of the light.

Peter I am very happy to hear that the TI version is not first out of the block.
Ti doesn't add signifigantly enough to the utility of a flashlight of this nature to be worth the extreeme premium.

Peter have you coniddered using 7075?
Sombody mentioned reduced wall thickness. While I prefer the robust nature of thick walled lights. the use of 7075 would allow for thinner walls while maintaining sturctural integredity.
Even moving from 6061 to 7075 would add a great benifit to the long term strength of this light.
It should be worth a look anyway.
Yaesumofo


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## 22hornet (Sep 4, 2007)

The launch of the new LS is definitely taking too long.
Is it really that difficult to make something as simple as a flashlight? It's not a space rocket nor a racecar, it's only a flashlight. Take the old LS, put in a new led and voilà... ready.

Joris


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## Lebkuecher (Sep 4, 2007)

22hornet said:


> The launch of the new LS is definitely taking too long.
> Is it really that difficult to make something as simple as a flashlight? It's not a space rocket nor a racecar, it's only a flashlight. Take the old LS, put in a new led and voilà... ready.
> 
> Joris




I would agree with you if this was a simple twisty but this is a complete rework from the ground up with new drivers and a lot more engineering. Add to this Peter is a perfectionist which means it has to be perfect or a least as close to perfect as a dedicated perfectionist can make it. I also believe lessons from the past have been learned in that it cost a lot less to handle issues in the development stage VS after the initial release which means retrofitting fixes or completely replacing product. As someone who plans to buy this product I appreciate Peter's commitment to excellence and getting the product right the first time. Everyone will be happier if the product is flawless coming out the gate.


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## 22hornet (Sep 4, 2007)

Yes, of course, but in the meantime a lot of people will have bought a Novatac instead, I fear. And not all (few) of them will buy the LS as well.
_General Patton: "a good idea today is better than a great idea tomorrow" _

I hope the new ARC LS will be worth the waiting. I hope it is somewhat like the old LS, without bells and whistles, but of absolute perfect fit and finish.

Joris


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## Kiessling (Sep 4, 2007)

The old LS was far from perfect in fit and finish. We shall not forget this. If you are after cosmetics the new LS might not be a light for you I would guess. Function it is.

I prefer a solid product in a few months over a quickly released problem plagued product now, too. There is an abundance of choices now. We aren't exactly starving for more lights. But if there is a new light, it'd better be a good light.

bernie


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## AWGD8 (Sep 5, 2007)

With so much changes in the flashlight technology, it is very hard to keep up.
By the time this New LS comes out, it`s already obsolete.... :nana:



Lebkuecher said:


> I would agree with you if this was a simple twisty but this is a complete rework from the ground up with new drivers and a lot more engineering. Add to this Peter is a perfectionist which means it has to be perfect or a least as close to perfect as a dedicated perfectionist can make it. I also believe lessons from the past have been learned in that it cost a lot less to handle issues in the development stage VS after the initial release which means retrofitting fixes or completely replacing product. As someone who plans to buy this product I appreciate Peter's commitment to excellence and getting the product right the first time. Everyone will be happier if the product is flawless coming out the gate.


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## L.E.D. (Sep 9, 2007)

I remember quite awhile ago, thinking my Brinkmann 2AA LED was cool and dreaming of having an ARC LS in my hands, then I finally got one and thought I had the brightest. Now, with the new technology available, I think Arc will come out on top again. Long live the niche market!


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## Stillphoto (Sep 9, 2007)

Lebkuecher said:


> I would agree with you if this was a simple twisty but this is a complete rework from the ground up with new drivers and a lot more engineering. Add to this Peter is a perfectionist which means it has to be perfect or a least as close to perfect as a dedicated perfectionist can make it. I also believe lessons from the past have been learned in that it cost a lot less to handle issues in the development stage VS after the initial release which means retrofitting fixes or completely replacing product. As someone who plans to buy this product I appreciate Peter's commitment to excellence and getting the product right the first time. Everyone will be happier if the product is flawless coming out the gate.



Exactly


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## Freedom1955 (Sep 11, 2007)

Somebody PM me when this light is built and ready for sale. I hope I have not died of old age by then.:kiss:


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## Gransee (Sep 11, 2007)

That would be an example of frustation. Waiting is hard for me too. 

But, things are proceeding each day. I have not posted much (in this thread) because there is simply nothing I want to report right now. 

peter


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## Groundhog66 (Sep 11, 2007)

:candle:


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## Daniel_sk (Sep 11, 2007)

Is there any summary with available information about the upcoming Arc-LS?


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## goldenlight (Sep 11, 2007)

Freedom1955 said:


> Somebody PM me when this light is built and ready for sale. I hope I have not died of old age by then.:kiss:



You may need the new Arc-LS more than you think. 

The sun will have gone dark by it's release date....!
:candle:


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## WTH (Sep 12, 2007)

Peter,

Any updates on production progress or estimated release date?

Thanks!


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## jcompton (Sep 12, 2007)

Do we have an estimated price for this little guy???


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## yaesumofo (Sep 15, 2007)

This is too true.
The LS while it was a good product the two finished parts almost never matched. and when they did the often had streaks and were imperfect. IMHO there is no need for imperfect finishes.

I also agree thet a product which reaches the market as a completly tested and with all of the problems flushed out if preferable.
That said it is difficult to maintain a technological leed if the technology passes you by.
Lets say that Peter chooses an emitter today and designs his driver around that emitter.
Now assume it takes three months to bring the light to market. or six or twelve. By the time the light comes out the emitter is just about three rungs down the ladder from where it started.
It is a tough game,
I am preetty sure that Peter has focused his energy on a turnkey BOD and head design by Don. That allows him to focus completly on the emitter driver package.
One can hope that when the light does make it that two several things happen.
It is not too expensive.
It is not obsolete.
It is bug free.
There is still a market.
Lets hope the finish used is as good as the rest of the light.
Lets hope the light is a good candidate for EDC..It's onl chance of success IMHO.
Yaesumofo.
PS 
Het peter what's up with your AAA UV light. Can you please make a post in the thread?







Kiessling said:


> The old LS was far from perfect in fit and finish. We shall not forget this. If you are after cosmetics the new LS might not be a light for you I would guess. Function it is.
> 
> I prefer a solid product in a few months over a quickly released problem plagued product now, too. There is an abundance of choices now. We aren't exactly starving for more lights. But if there is a new light, it'd better be a good light.
> 
> bernie


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## Gransee (Sep 15, 2007)

This question has come up before. Some people are wondering if the LS is taking longer than it should and if this perceived extra time will cause the light to be dated once it is released. I have already answered this question in the previous thread. So either people have not read my answer, or they don't agree. For those who don't agree, I have yet to see a good reason why. I do appreciate the emotions involved, and I sympathize, but I also expect a logical response as well. 

Simply trying to pester me into hurrying up doesn't work. I have my own motivation and is more than sufficient. The longest lead time item is the machining. I have taken prudent steps to reduce delays in that area. I move each segment forward with minimal delay on my part. We are spending extra cash to reduce delays. But the whole process takes time. And that amount of time is normal for this type of setup. 

The reason it may appear to be taking longer than some may expect is that they know about the existence of the project but lack sufficient understanding of the steps required. Sure, there are examples of projects taking less time, but there are differences. Do you know what those are?

Forget that I am working on a new flashlight. If you have to get mad at me to forget, then there may be some utility in getting mad. Pretend that I told you that the grapes are probably sour, you can get better grapes somewhere else and you probably don't want grapes anyways. You'll will go elsewhere, spend more money for a fix and I will continue on my work. 

I have avoided posting updates as often because, among other reasons, it might appear to tease. I don't like teases. What are you offering, when can I get it. Right now I am offering information and you can get it now. There is not a lot of information, but I told you this up front. I have taken steps to be upfront about what type of exchange this is. 

Any rate, you get the idea. Read at your own frustration. I might post an update later.

peter


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## Daekar (Sep 16, 2007)

I think we need to stop bugging him, guys. He'll give us information when he's ready. One reason why it's taking so long (as he's already said, if I remember correctly) is that he wants to be done RIGHT, just like the Arc AAA was. I seem to remember a mention of the robustness and efficiency AND versatility of the driver as well - if it's designed well initially, it will be usable for longer and in more ways - and for more than one kind of emitter over time, if necessary. <---- THIS IS A GOOD THING TO WAIT FOR. I'm just as anxious as you all are to get a new Arc for my EDC light, but we need to lay off for a while...


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## SunnyQueensland (Sep 16, 2007)

I don't see what everyones problem is anyway? Its not like there isn't plenty of other flashlights to keep us amused till its released. Otherwise it gives us all the opportunity to save our precious pennies. Sounds to me like Peter is getting fed up with being hassled. 

My 2 cents.

:twothumbs


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## James S (Sep 16, 2007)

It's a shame you can't tease us without racking up annoyances. I would love to hear some ongoing details and such and wouldn't pester you without putting smiley at the end of the sentence  I am looking forward to seeing the light that comes out the end of this process, but it's not like it's the new artificial heart that if I don't get it next week I'm going to die. I'm at least as interested in the process as I am in the end product. 

So you guys are ruining it for me as Peter wont share the ongoing details anymore! So cut it out.


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## Gransee (Sep 17, 2007)

Yes, more information about the development is what made the long wait for the original LS easier to bare for the average CPF'er. The original LS was announced before we even had a finished design (it was originally going to use a cluster of 5mm LEDs)! We dialogued through the selection process of various parts, prototypes, etc. Now with more competitors reading the forums, details are more limited. I also didn't announce the project until it was further along. Even so, there are long periods of time with very little information. That has to be frustrating. 

peter


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## Gransee (Sep 17, 2007)

OK, here's another low detail update:

The light is in early stages of production. Machining is now the longest lead time item. I knew this was going to be the biggest time consumer during the production before we even started. I learned this lesson with previous products. That's why we started the machining as soon as we thought we were reasonably sure of the mechanical design. Another decision I made to speed things up was not to use our own CNC machines for the first production run (we have 3 full size cnc machines). Instead, we are paying a significant amount more to have the parts machined with an external contractor in the hope this gets us parts more quickly. One of the reasons the contractor is supposed to be quicker is the fact that they are same contractor that makes the PD parts for McGizmo. Read earlier posts on why this relevant. Therefore, they already have the experience, some of the programs only need to be modified and many of the tools are identical. These factors combined should save time.

However, there are delays. Rather than skip straight to production quantities, we paid extra to get a first article and have production held while that first article was tested. This turned out to be a good idea because I ended up having to reject the first article for several reasons. I am now working with McGizmo and the shop on resolving the problems. Part of the delay is I have to build these parts into a working flashlight to test them completely. this includes waiting for the parts to be anodized, etc. It is a pain in the backside but there isn't any way around it. The problem could have caused units to not switch correctly in the field. They may be fine after all, but they must be tested to verify this. If they test fine, then this might seem like I was being overly picky. If they test bad, then I might look smart for taking the time.

Any rate, the first articles are at the plater being anodized. Next up is to build them into a working flashlight and then to test, test, test. Out of this testing may come revised drawings, etc. I don't know yet. 

Meanwhile, the software development is continueing. The latest build now has features implimented like the settings menu, different levels, etc. I have taken several units camping and also edc each of the test units and I am pleased with the operation. We currently are working on some safety routines (temp/batt protection). After that, we have the calibration routines and then the code will be pretty much up to the production level feature set. After that, there will be fine tuning of the various timings, power levels, etc to produce a polished result. 

Like I said before (you really should read my earlier posts), the interface is easier to use than the Arc4 UI. I also said before that the PC interface is not included in this rev. The new menu system has been implimented and tuned and I like the finished result. I have let flashlight newbies try it and I have observed how they use it. 

I still have some time before I have to pick an LED for production. The choices have been narrowed down to the latest P4 and the K2 TF. If you know of something more powerful, let me know. If I time this right, there should be no reason why this light doesn't have the hottest LED available at the time is ships. 

No idea yet what the final lumen, run time, cost, ship date, etc will be. sorry, too soon for me to know for certain on those things. 

peter


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## Codeman (Sep 17, 2007)

Super update, Peter! :bow:

Quality is worth waiting for...


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## MorpheusT1 (Sep 17, 2007)

:twothumbs


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## jcompton (Sep 17, 2007)

Thanks for the update...


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## Gransee (Sep 17, 2007)

Maybe after I've put the mechanicals to bed (a printing term), I'll start a new thread with all the details posted in the first post where it is easy to get to. I admit that so far, there has been some value in having things hard to get to. It tends to filter out the less dedicated. 

Also, I having the website updated this week so you will see a placeholder page for the LS on the site. Hopefully this doesn't wig anyone out.

peter


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## greenLED (Sep 17, 2007)

Gransee said:


> It tends to filter out the less dedicated.


No-no-no-no, we're here. I'm too busy eating  to type anything relevant, though.


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## mspeterson (Sep 17, 2007)

*EXTRA!....NEW LS SET TO SHIP!*

OMG!!! The new LS is up on the site already, that means it's ready to ship!!!!!



Can I get mine in fuscia HA3 with eleven black trits, side-by-side 18650 tube, 7AAAA tube, D tube, and a side of ranch!!!!!































:devil: :nana:  

Sorry.......

:shrug: 

Joking aside, I'm with James S on this one. This is an excellent voyage with the certanty of great reward at the end; no need to rush things. Sometimes you just have to ignore the children and stare out the window at the beautiful scenery......:tinfoil:

Thanks for the updates, Peter!
Keep up the GREAT work!!!


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## jcompton (Sep 17, 2007)

Gransee said:


> Also, I having the website updated this week so you will see a placeholder page for the LS on the site. Hopefully this doesn't wig anyone out.
> 
> peter


 

"Placeholder page" as in a page that will be dedicated to the New LS or as in a page where you allow individuals to sign up on a list to purchase the New LS and their place in line to purchase will be held?


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## Stillphoto (Sep 18, 2007)

jcompton said:


> "Placeholder page" as in a page that will be dedicated to the New LS or as in a page where you allow individuals to sign up on a list to purchase the New LS and their place in line to purchase will be held?



Placeholder page: A temporary page on a website. Usually put up while the actual page is being worked on / developed. In this case, the plain page that will eventually be the arc ls page.


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## Nyctophiliac (Sep 18, 2007)

*Re: EXTRA!....NEW LS SET TO SHIP!*



mspeterson said:


> stare out the window at the beautiful scenery......:tinfoil:




...and if you want to stare at the beautiful scenery in the dark, you're going to need some kind of torch to help you. My preference would be a brand spankin' new ARC, hot off the press and squeaky new from those chaps in Arizona...

...Like Steve Mcqueen in 'Papillion' - I find the long wait only sweetens the resolve and eventual pay off....tantric torches anyone??

Happy testing Mr Gransee!! :thumbsup:


Be lucky...


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## WTH (Sep 18, 2007)

Thanks for the update!


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## KingSmono (Sep 18, 2007)

Thanks for the update Peter! Can't wait...


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## Thujone (Sep 18, 2007)

Waiting for pricing info...


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## Groundhog66 (Sep 18, 2007)

Great news, can't wait to add more Arc's to my collection.

:huh:


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## da.gee (Sep 18, 2007)

I'm just excited about my first Arc (AAA-P) coming this week I hope.


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## ViReN (Sep 18, 2007)

New LED's are coming (according to latest press releases) I think by the time Arc LS comes out, the new high efficiency LED's which would be delivering upwards of 200 lumens at a nominal current will be out...


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## Gransee (Sep 18, 2007)

And what would those be?

peter


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## ViReN (Sep 19, 2007)

Gransee said:


> And what would those be?
> 
> peter



As of today, Those would be from *Cree*... Not sure if they will brand it differently or consider them as upgraded Cree XR-E

Quoting from that Press Release


> The results have been verified by the National Institute of Standards and Technology (NIST). NIST’s tests confirmed that the cool-white (5,813 K) LED produced 135.7 lumens of light output and achieved 129 lumens per watt efficacy. The warm-white (2,950 K) LED produced 104.2 lumens of light output and achieved 99 lumens per watt efficacy. The institute tests LEDs at 350 mA and measures the output after five minutes of operation to ensure thermal stabilization.



135 Lumens for 350 mA means 220+ Lumens at 700 mA ... best part is even the warm whites are having a very decent Lm/W figures producing 100+ lumens at 350 mA

Some LEO's and Some People prefer the Warm White Tint's ... if Given a choice, New Arc LS could very well become one of the preferred choice by those people if a warmer tint LED option is provided.


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## Gransee (Sep 19, 2007)

Sorry, I don't think I asked the question very well. 

The discussion was not about every new press release in the LED world. The heart of the discussion was about the LS being as bright as possible when it shipped because it had the best LED. My question was, what new parts am I not looking at that should be included but may not fit in the current design? In this case, it is about compatibility with the LS system. Since electrical compatibility is not the issue, this leaves packaging. 

Any update to the cree die is going to result in an update to the P4 part, etc. Since the P4, etc package is already compatible with the LS, any updates to the cree die like you mention are no concern in themselves. 

Therefore, my question remains unanswered.


Of course, cree and lumileds are constantly improving their dice. But the packages don't change as much since they have large customer bases that have designed applications around those packages. For a given power class, a type of package is slowly becoming an industry standard. Even so, the new LS can quickly adapt to small package variations within that class. 

The answer to the question was not "well the p4, k2, xlamp is going to be updated and really brighter". Of course it is. The question was really about threats to the idea that we could have the best LED at the time of shipping. So when I asked for new LEDs, I was asking for LEDs that wouldn't fit in the LS. I already expected the answer to be none because first, I haven't heard of anything yet in this class and second new entrys into this class will try to use a similiar package so they can compete with the existing products. 

The question could have been worded, what new parts are coming out in the next say year that should be used in the LS but won't fit because their package is so radically different?

I have talked about the relevant non-importance of the particular LED before quite a bit. Hopefully by now people are starting to get the idea.

peter


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## Gransee (Sep 19, 2007)

And remember that for a 1x123 type light to be the brightest, there is a fairly narrow range of packages that are ideal and this list is getting smaller, not larger as the market tends to consolidate.

For example, you could put a rebel in the LS, but since the die is the same as the k2, but in a smaller package, it would generally be better to have the die in the k2 package (heat, optics, etc). 

So I guess my question was a bit rhetorical. 

peter


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## ViReN (Sep 19, 2007)

Today, highest efficiency Available (and in production) led is *Cree XR-E Q5 Bin*. Not sure what would be there in future. If Arc LS is going to be out in next couple of weeks, Cree Q5's would be best bet and suited (they are brighter and more efficient than LumiLED's Rebel 100 parts), depending on the reflector possibilities of course

On Seoul front, the currently available P4 U Bin is not the highest in efficiency, perhaps the upcoming V bin Seoul P4 would be in line with Cree Q5Bin's... again... it's still a vapor ware...


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## Gransee (Sep 19, 2007)

The cree xlamp package already has been fitted in the LS as you know (see bare Al prototypes in pictures). However, the resulting beam doesn't throw as far as the P4 or K2. The center spot is less powerful while the flood is more powerful. The change is significant and in my opinion, less desireable. This could be fixed by making the head larger, but any dolt can make a light brighter by making it bigger. I would rather wait for the same high flux die to end up in a better package (p4). Modders can put in whatever LED they want (within reason), but our main offering will be more in line with the traditional beam distribution people expect from an EDC.

peter


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## Gransee (Sep 19, 2007)

One other thing, our published lumen values are with actual production units, with the LED actually in the flashlight and with the light actually being used for several minutes on an actual battery. 

We don't use LED manufacture's bin, etc. This means you typically take off about 30 percent by the time you transit ruggedized optics. No pretty boy optics that better work in a lab than in your tool box. A big V12 on a test stand will get great gas mileage if it doesn't have to lug around a truck. 

Oh sure, there will be confusion when people look at competitor specs and then ours and wonder why we say we are brighter. This is not my first rodeo.

peter


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## Thujone (Sep 19, 2007)

Gransee said:


> This is not my first rodeo.
> 
> peter



Just a touch excitable this morning, is everything going alright?


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## THE_dAY (Sep 19, 2007)

from previously being a small light with throw type of guy, i much now prefer my edcs with strong sidespill and would sacrifice a some throw for it.


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## NoFair (Sep 19, 2007)

Looking great Peter! 

No problem with the wait since I have more flashlights than "fun&games" funds at the moment


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## Gransee (Sep 19, 2007)

Thujone said:


> Just a touch excitable this morning, is everything going alright?



I have used that phrase before haven't I?

Its fun and actually apropos for this situation. 

And yes, I am frustrated by the delays in machining. but your probably heard that one through the grapevine I doubt you divined that from one comment of mine. I got the parts back from the plater yesterday and they wouldn't thread together. the machine shop didn't realize the parts were to be plated (it was in my rfq) so they need to make the parts again. another 2-3 weeks. wee! couple other issues with drawing variations between the ng and guard version of the sleeve that have to be verified as no problem. etc.

of course it will all work out...

peter


----------



## Groundhog66 (Sep 19, 2007)

I would be VERY interested in doing some field testing if you happen to need non-technical, EDC, everyday guy kinda feedback.

:naughty:

Tim


----------



## greenLED (Sep 19, 2007)

There's a line before you Tim. :nana:



Groundhog66 said:


> I would be VERY interested in doing some field testing if you happen to need non-technical, EDC, everyday guy kinda feedback.
> 
> :naughty:
> 
> Tim


----------



## Thujone (Sep 19, 2007)

Gransee said:


> I have used that phrase before haven't I?
> 
> Its fun and actually apropos for this situation.
> 
> ...



Sorry to hear that. I just sensed a different tone in your posts, that line I just happened to like so i quoted it. Hope things start going better!


----------



## Groundhog66 (Sep 19, 2007)

greenLED said:


> There's a line before you Tim. :nana:


 


I CLEARLY stated "Everyday Kinda Guy Feedback", you sir do not fit that description.....:tsk:


----------



## greenLED (Sep 19, 2007)

I'm here every day. Doesn't that count? :nana:



Groundhog66 said:


> I CLEARLY stated "Everyday Kinda Guy Feedback", you sir do not fit that description.....:tsk:


----------



## Groundhog66 (Sep 19, 2007)

greenLED said:


> I'm here every day. Doesn't that count? :nana:


 


:thinking:


:thumbsdow


----------



## smokelaw1 (Sep 19, 2007)

greenLED said:


> I'm here every day. Doesn't that count? :nana:


 
Cute. I can think of about 1,000 people who would be so kind as to "volunteer" some time to test the new LS. For the record, I am also one of them.


----------



## Groundhog66 (Sep 19, 2007)

smokelaw1 said:


> Cute. I can think of about 1,000 people who would be so kind as to "volunteer" some time to test the new LS. For the record, I am also one of them.


 

Unfortunately for you, nobody with under 1,000 posts is eligible. Sorry bout yer luck.

:shakehead

:laughing:


----------



## greenLED (Sep 19, 2007)

Groundhog66 said:


> Unfortunately for you, nobody with under 1,000 posts is eligible. Sorry bout yer luck.
> 
> :shakehead
> 
> :laughing:


I think you missed a "0" in there, Tim. It's 10000 posts minimum for doing evals.


----------



## jcompton (Sep 19, 2007)

smokelaw1 said:


> Cute. I can think of about 1,000 people who would be so kind as to "volunteer" some time to test the new LS. For the record, I am also one of them.


 






OOooo, OOooo, Pick me! Pick ME!!!


----------



## jcompton (Sep 19, 2007)

greenLED said:


> I think you missed a "0" in there, Tim. It's 10000 posts minimum for doing evals.


 

I guess I'm out of the runnings...(yet one post closer to the 10,000 mark )


----------



## Groundhog66 (Sep 19, 2007)

greenLED said:


> I think you missed a "0" in there, Tim. It's 10000 posts minimum for doing evals.


 

Okay....I GIVE.....GEEEEEEZ


----------



## ViReN (Sep 19, 2007)

where to sign up for testing


----------



## SunnyQueensland (Sep 19, 2007)

Great info... :thumbsup:

No matter when its ready, my Paypal account is waiting for the word. :candle:


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## Stillphoto (Sep 20, 2007)

Gransee said:


> This is not my first rodeo.
> 
> peter



Bingo! The ARC-R!

Would be appropriate considering the hoops everyones jumping through over it lol.


----------



## smokelaw1 (Sep 20, 2007)

Groundhog66 said:


> Unfortunately for you, nobody with under 1,000 posts is eligible. Sorry bout yer luck.
> 
> :shakehead
> 
> :laughing:


 
Wow...I need to come up with 800 more posts before the new ARC is ready for testing. So much for working this month, but I can do it!


----------



## Cyclops942 (Sep 22, 2007)

Groundhog66 said:


> I would be VERY interested in doing some field testing if you happen to need non-technical, EDC, everyday guy kinda feedback.
> 
> :naughty:
> 
> Tim



There's actually a quite a loooong line of "non-technical, EDC, everyday guy kinda feedback"-providing people in front of you.

But, hey, it never hurts to ask! You never know what kind of criteria might need to be met with the latest need for prospective customer input, right? 

I'm waiting to be able to post this one ===>


----------



## Groundhog66 (Sep 22, 2007)

If you would like to post  I am sure R&D funds would be accepted.:nana:


----------



## Cyclops942 (Sep 22, 2007)

Groundhog66 said:


> If you would like to post  I am sure R&D funds would be accepted.:nana:





Actually, no, Peter doesn't work that way. We've offered before, and he turns us down.


----------



## jef144 (Sep 22, 2007)

As much as testing, I'd be equally interested in getting into the lottery for the first 100 non-random serial numbers. Of course, I would secretly hope to lose in this lottery, because owning an heirloom would require me to buy a second one for EDC.


----------



## Optik49 (Sep 23, 2007)

Also, I having the website updated this week so you will see a placeholder page for the LS on the site. Hopefully this doesn't wig anyone out.

peter[/quote]

Am I missing it or is it just not up yet.  I'll keep checking. 

Oh ya I am an amateur product tester / reviewer. Hint, Hint :naughty:


----------



## paulr (Sep 24, 2007)

Gransee said:


> The cree xlamp package already has been fitted in the LS as you know (see bare Al prototypes in pictures). However, the resulting beam doesn't throw as far as the P4 or K2. The center spot is less powerful while the flood is more powerful. The change is significant and in my opinion, less desireable. This could be fixed by making the head larger, but any dolt can make a light brighter by making it bigger. I would rather wait for the same high flux die to end up in a better package (p4). Modders can put in whatever LED they want (within reason), but our main offering will be more in line with the traditional beam distribution people expect from an EDC.
> 
> peter


I'm not sure what you mean by traditional beam distribution or even that there is such a thing. Surefire, for example, is well known for making lights with wide beams based on the idea that small lights are mostly used at near and medium distances. They have some interchangeable turboheads for those who need throwers. I myself prefer wide beams. I got a P--k Pacific recently and its beam is much narrower than I'd like; quite small hotspot and rather dim spill that is itself narrower than some other lights. IMO the Arc4+ beam was slightly on the narrow side though still satisfying. 

I realize it's a tradeoff and preferences will vary but please count this as one vote in favor of less spot and more flood. It's like preferring a wideangle lens to a telephoto lens on a camera. Since 95% of my usage is indoors I'd rather light up the whole room evenly all at once than have to scan around with a tiny little searchlight-like beam. Of course you could always think about some kind of interchangeable reflector scheme. I'd go for medium orange peel.


----------



## Lebkuecher (Sep 24, 2007)

I think I would prefer the traditional beam distribution myself because I would use the light both in and outdoors and I find the traditional beam distribution satisfactory for both purposes. 

My guess is it is to late to do this but I do like paulr’s idea of a interchangeable reflector scheme but not sure how you could accomplish this without making the head much larger. Of course now you can choose a different led and accomplish basically the same thing so I’m not sure if it is really needed.


----------



## Kiessling (Sep 24, 2007)

A big and soft hotspot with a concentrated spill and gentle transition has huge benefits in near an dmedium field illumination and is, IMHO, preferable over a bright and small spot with a pale spill. Especially in lower illumination modes where this spill will be useless and the high contrast between spot and spill makes it way more difficult to use.
But then again .. this is IMHO 
bernie


----------



## havand (Sep 24, 2007)

Kiessling said:


> A big and soft hotspot with a concentrated spill and gentle transition has huge benefits in near an dmedium field illumination and is, IMHO, preferable over a bright and small spot with a pale spill. Especially in lower illumination modes where this spill will be useless and the high contrast between spot and spill makes it way more difficult to use.
> But then again .. this is IMHO
> bernie



+1


----------



## ViReN (Sep 24, 2007)

Throwwwwwwwwwwwww...... in smallest package.... IMHO 

for flood, we always have an option to use a diffuser cap


----------



## Kiessling (Sep 24, 2007)

ViReN ... don't get me wrong ... I am not talking about a flood light. I am talking about a "ram of light" where the corona has some throw and the spot is big and smooth ... easy on the eyes ... and thus offering a far greater field of vision in mid range than a needle spot and dim corona.

Putting the spill to good use beyond the near field AND corona management are IMHO the most important factors for a good beam ... and are often overlooked because they just aren't spectacular.

bernie


----------



## greenLED (Sep 24, 2007)

Kiessling said:


> Putting the spill to good use beyond the near field AND corona management are IMHO the most important factors for a good beam ... and are often overlooked because they just aren't spectacular.


I'm with Bernie here on the beam pattern preferences.


----------



## Codeman (Sep 24, 2007)

Given the collaboration with McGizmo and the PD-ness, we might just see a McR reflector, which would suit me just fine!


----------



## jeffb (Sep 24, 2007)

Totally agree with Bernie and "Green" 

jeffb


----------



## 270winchester (Sep 24, 2007)

Kiessling said:


> ViReN ... don't get me wrong ... I am not talking about a flood light. I am talking about a "ram of light" where the corona has some throw and the spot is big and smooth ... easy on the eyes ... and thus offering a far greater field of vision in mid range than a needle spot and dim corona.
> 
> Putting the spill to good use beyond the near field AND corona management are IMHO the most important factors for a good beam ... and are often overlooked because they just aren't spectacular.
> 
> bernie



something that the McR reflectors are very good at. The McR45 still provides the best combo of hotspot and corona transition of all my lights.


----------



## Kiessling (Sep 24, 2007)

270winchester said:


> something that the McR reflectors are very good at. The McR45 still provides the best combo of hotspot and corona transition of all my lights.




Depends. The original McR-27 (aka Pelican Reflector) and brethren (the -38 and -45) weren't that good at producing a nice beam like I was talking about. Sure, the McR-45 did it to a certain extent but needed a huge size to achieve it.

The McR-20 and brethren, mostly the -27L, were much better already, and only surpassed by the McR-19XR and family for the Cree XR-E. There you really get a tight and bright corona gently fading in a generous spot. 

Perfect for a small 1x123 light. Such a light won't serve as a searchlight. It is more likely to serve as an illumination tool for close and midrange tasks where such a beam will excel.

However ... all this is probably taking the thread too far OT as it is based on the speculation that the new ARC-LS will use a McR-X.

bernie


----------



## GarageBoy (Sep 24, 2007)

Perfect beam, IMHO, what Kiessling is describing is gonna be like the So17x backed with a Lux III kind of beam


----------



## skalomax (Sep 25, 2007)

McR16's are a excellent choice too.


----------



## bhds (Sep 25, 2007)

Kiessling said:


> ViReN ... don't get me wrong ... I am not talking about a flood light. I am talking about a "ram of light" where the corona has some throw and the spot is big and smooth ... easy on the eyes ... and thus offering a far greater field of vision in mid range than a needle spot and dim corona.
> 
> Putting the spill to good use beyond the near field AND corona management are IMHO the most important factors for a good beam ... and are often overlooked because they just aren't spectacular.
> 
> bernie



+1 
something like the fraen low profile "hot spot" :thumbsup:


----------



## ViReN (Sep 25, 2007)

Kiessling said:


> ViReN ... don't get me wrong ... I am not talking about a flood light. I am talking about a "ram of light" where the corona has some throw and the spot is big and smooth ... easy on the eyes ... and thus offering a far greater field of vision in mid range than a needle spot and dim corona.
> 
> Putting the spill to good use beyond the near field AND corona management are IMHO the most important factors for a good beam ... and are often overlooked because they just aren't spectacular.
> 
> bernie



:twothumbs Some thing like NovaTac Beam or a QIII Beam ... balanced throw... smooth transition from throw to spill.....


----------



## Kiessling (Sep 25, 2007)

GarageBoy said:


> Perfect beam, IMHO, what Kiessling is describing is gonna be like the So17x backed with a Lux III kind of beam



Nope. Spill way narrower and corona bigger. Like the XR19 with the Cree or the 27L with the LuxIII.


We don't know what reflector the Arc will use, don't we? All speculation? 

bernie


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## GarageBoy (Sep 25, 2007)

Hmm, never seen those in person. Anything like the SF U2 beam?


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## Pax et Lux (Sep 28, 2007)

I'm probably the only person here interested in low-levels. I find a single-cell light has to have a low low, as it were. That's more important than how bright it can get. If I want bright, I'll carry a larger light.


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## Gatsby (Sep 28, 2007)

Pax et Lux said:


> I'm probably the only person here interested in low-levels. I find a single-cell light has to have a low low, as it were. That's more important than how bright it can get. If I want bright, I'll carry a larger light.


 
No - You're not the only one! I've held off on having my HDS B42 modded with a Seoul P4, in no small part due to my not wanting to lose the .8 lumens ultra low level. I use that level a lot at home when I'm navigating at night after the kids and wife have gone to bed. Whereas I only use the burst mode maybe once a week and only for a moment. I keep a blue photon on my keyring and that is a tad too bright for most of my uses for that light (one reason to consider a freedom I suppose). I have a Strion if I really want a lot of throw and lumens, or a MagLED for that matter.


----------



## Gransee (Sep 28, 2007)

Got the revised units from the machine shop. I already delivered them to the plater and ordered an expedite. $270 to plate 6 parts. Its worth it though if it saves a week.

Of course, we will see how well these new parts work after they have been plated. 

peter


----------



## Daekar (Sep 28, 2007)

Gransee said:


> Got the revised units from the machine shop. I already delivered them to the plater and ordered an expedite. $270 to plate 6 parts. Its worth it though if it saves a week.
> 
> Of course, we will see how well these new parts work after they have been plated.
> 
> peter


 
Wow... that's a chunk of change! I hope the new parts turn out well after they're plate - and I really appreciate you keeping us up to date on things. Keep up the good work! :wave:


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## greenstuffs (Sep 29, 2007)

is there a picture available for the ARC LS? i can't find any


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## THE_dAY (Sep 29, 2007)

pics here:

http://www.cpfmarketplace.com/mp/showpost.php?p=2046671&postcount=513

http://www.cpfmarketplace.com/mp/showpost.php?p=2046702&postcount=524


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## greenstuffs (Sep 29, 2007)

Looks pretty nice when is the due date?
THX


THE_dAY said:


> pics here:
> 
> http://www.cpfmarketplace.com/mp/showpost.php?p=2046671&postcount=513
> 
> http://www.cpfmarketplace.com/mp/showpost.php?p=2046702&postcount=524


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## Daekar (Sep 29, 2007)

greenstuffs said:


> Looks pretty nice when is the due date?
> THX



LOL. Read the rest of the thread - there isn't one, really. Peter is doing the best he can, but he doesn't want to give us a solid date because he doesn't want to compromise the final product if (when) delays come up. We're all waiting patiently (or trying to be patient, anyway! ) for the magical day when the Arc-LS page on the webpage isn't a placeholder anymore. :naughty:


----------



## Gransee (Oct 4, 2007)

Update:

Got the parts back from the plater. Plating looks good and is to spec. parts now thread together, verifying that machining was the issue. However, the bolt holes required tapping to use. Also, the guarded pack can't access stage2 but the ng pack can. overnighted to McGizmo to have him check the parts. 

peter


----------



## jcompton (Oct 4, 2007)

Thanks for the update. Sounds like it won't be too much longer before the long awaited release!!! :twothumbs


----------



## Groundhog66 (Oct 4, 2007)




----------



## Haz (Oct 4, 2007)

This is great news, thanks for the update Peter


----------



## Thujone (Oct 10, 2007)

Did the parts check out?


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## Gransee (Oct 10, 2007)

update:

Don got the parts this weekend and checked their dimensions. He updated the drawings for the guarded sleeve (the one that had problems getting into stage2). He fedex'd it back to me and I am having a new guarded sleeve expedited. While Don had the light I walked him through the brightness menu, which he says is easier to use than the Arc4.

Although technically the head, piston, bezel and ng sleeve have passed all the currents tests, I want to re-run the tests again before ordering production on the machining. Its is a big decision and I am not going to rush it. 

peter


----------



## Gransee (Oct 10, 2007)

dupe post


----------



## DarthLumen (Oct 10, 2007)

Gransee said:


> update:
> 
> Don got the parts this weekend and checked their dimensions. He updated the drawings for the guarded sleeve (the one that had problems getting into stage2). He fedex'd it back to me and I am having a new guarded sleeve expedited. While Don had the light I walked him through the brightness menu, which he says is easier to use than the Arc4.
> 
> ...




Peter,

Good for you. Better to get it right, prior to going out the door, than to hear a multitude of arm chair quarterbacks (yea -I'd probably be one them) complaining about what you should have done. Actually, you're probably going to get that anyway....so brace yourself!! 

We'll be waiting.


----------



## jcompton (Oct 10, 2007)

Thanks for the update! :thumbsup:


----------



## KingSmono (Oct 10, 2007)

Right on! Can't wait.


----------



## McGizmo (Oct 10, 2007)

Hi guys,
This was my first chance to see how Peter's electronics and UI interfaced with a two stage mechanical package I am reasonably familiar with. I have been curious as to how Peter planed to exploit the mechanical design.

For some background, I am not good with UI's that require following a dance step routine and I was very close to programing an Arc4 with a 5 lb sledge hammer when JollyRoger showed up at my house and saved the day or at least light. Peter did talk me through his new UI on the phone and it made perfect sense to me and I think his design will be well received by a good number of you. I leave the details to him and I don't want to comment out of place. Obviously the real proof will be in the field but from what I could see, this light has a good shot at seeing some field service and providing some clever and new solutions. The light can handle a simple idiot doing the two step (me) or it can allow one a fancier dance with self determined steps.

For many reasons, I hope this light is well received and a success. I leave the praises, any perceived shortcomings and evaluations to others. :wave:


----------



## smokelaw1 (Oct 10, 2007)

And the intrigue grows! 
I can't wait to get the opportunity to form my own opinions! 
Thanks to all for the updates!


----------



## Groundhog66 (Oct 10, 2007)

:thumbsup:


----------



## ViReN (Oct 10, 2007)

McGizmo said:


> Hi guys,
> This was my first chance to see how Peter's electronics and UI interfaced with a two stage mechanical package I am reasonably familiar with. I have been curious as to how Peter planed to exploit the mechanical design.
> 
> For some background, I am not good with UI's that require following a dance step routine and I was very close to programing an Arc4 with a 5 lb sledge hammer when JollyRoger showed up at my house and saved the day or at least light. Peter did talk me through his new UI on the phone and it made perfect sense to me and I think his design will be well received by a good number of you. I leave the details to him and I don't want to comment out of place. Obviously the real proof will be in the field but from what I could see, this light has a good shot at seeing some field service and providing some clever and new solutions. The light can handle a simple idiot doing the two step (me) or it can allow one a fancier dance with self determined steps.
> ...


:nana: what a tease.... :wave:spill out some beans will ya  

Human curiosity is eating me... !.. it would be interesting to see how to program...


----------



## js (Oct 10, 2007)

I just spent a good amount of time trying to catch up on the current state of the new Arc LS, and after a couple hours of effort reading threads, I have to say that *IT WAS ALL WORTH IT!*.

I'm very excited! I'm looking forward to the day when I can shell out my money and know that a new Arc LS is in the mail.

However, I'm more than willing to wait, and Peter, I applaud you for your dedication to quality and reliability and testing, testing, testing. Also, I love that you said having the information scattered around weeded out the less dedicated. LOL! Count me as one of the dedicated.

And, I for one appreciate any updates, no matter how slight or vague they are. I do not for a second consider them to be "teases" or find them frustrating. For the record, my vote is "bring on the updates." But it's not a big deal either way. The big deal is that I feel sure a quality product is in the works.


----------



## Kiessling (Oct 10, 2007)

Now if the gentlemen (Don and PG) could spill the beans  ... that would be most appreciated. That light actually sounds like it could be the fusion of mechanical and uC switching some of us are looking for.
I am most curious.

bernie


----------



## skalomax (Oct 10, 2007)

I'm sorry If this has been said, but what reflector is new New Arc LS going to use?

thanks


----------



## manoloco (Oct 11, 2007)

ARC V instead of ARC 5 could be more interesting to play with  :


----------



## gloworm (Oct 11, 2007)

Very clever design Monoloco, well done


----------



## alex in germany (Oct 11, 2007)

Kiessling said:


> Now if the gentlemen (Don and PG) could spill the beans  ... that would be most appreciated. That light actually sounds like it could be the fusion of mechanical and uC switching some of us are looking for.
> I am most curious.
> 
> bernie




:buddies: What he says !!:twothumbs


Alex


----------



## Oddjob (Oct 11, 2007)

manoloco said:


> ARC V instead of ARC 5 could be more interesting to play with  :


 

Cool logo! I also suggested Arc V in a another thread but I did not think about inverting it. Nice work.


----------



## nekomane (Oct 11, 2007)

skalomax said:


> I'm sorry If this has been said, but what reflector is new New Arc LS going to use?
> thanks



From post #516 in the previous Market Place thread 'The New Arc LS'.



Gransee said:


> 07-23-2007, 11:09 AM
> .......SNIP ........
> The window is man-made sapphire. The clip is also titanium. The reflector is removable and is machined out of solid aluminum and has a stippled (orange peel) surface.



There was talk about interchangable reflectors too, which reminds me of the LSHF-P


----------



## Thujone (Oct 11, 2007)

gloworm said:


> Very clever design Monoloco, well done



+1 Very cool, I now throw my support behind the V! As long as he is allowed to use that great graphic....


----------



## Wolfgang_Ludwig (Oct 11, 2007)

Sorry, I don´t like the logo. Looks like using the parts and playing around with the well known nazi symbol.


----------



## jcompton (Oct 11, 2007)

gloworm said:


> Very clever design Monoloco, well done


 
+2 :thumbsup:


----------



## this_is_nascar (Oct 11, 2007)

Oddjob said:


> Cool logo! I also suggested Arc V in a another thread but I did not think about inverting it. Nice work.



Sorry, I don't like that logo. It looks to "Asian-based" to me.


----------



## Thujone (Oct 11, 2007)

Wolfgang_Ludwig said:


> Sorry, I don´t like the logo. Looks like using the parts and playing around with the well known nazi symbol.



I don't think that the swastika should get brought up any time something contains right angles... While I see where you are coming from I don't see how its resemblance to a symbol used but not created by Nazi Germany should mean its not a great idea.


----------



## havand (Oct 11, 2007)

Thujone said:


> I don't think that the swastika should get brought up any time something contains right angles... While I see where you are coming from I don't see how its resemblance to a symbol used but not created by Nazi Germany should mean its not a great idea.


 

I agree. Also, just to point out that Nazi Germany did not make the symbol. It was actually used in a lot of other cultures and was a sign of goodluck. Anyone see those very old pictures of Native American tepees with them on the sides?

I personally think it is a very cool looking logo. However, might be a bit hard for someone that DOESN'T know what type of light it is to understand.


----------



## Sinjz (Oct 11, 2007)

manoloco said:


> ARC V instead of ARC 5 could be more interesting to play with  :



That is very nice! :thumbsup:

I can sorta see it spelling out 'Arc V'. 

What the heck is Wolfgang looking at? :thinking:


----------



## this_is_nascar (Oct 11, 2007)

What the heck are you guys talking about? I not once ever said "German", "Germany" or "Nazi". At any rate, I still don't like that logo. When I see it, it doesn't have a "built in the USA" feel about it.


----------



## Thujone (Oct 11, 2007)

this_is_nascar said:


> What the heck are you guys talking about? I not once ever said "German", "Germany" or "Nazi". At any rate, I still don't like that logo. When I see it, it doesn't have a "built in the USA" feel about it.




Read above your original post... No one is referring to your comment.


----------



## jcompton (Oct 11, 2007)

this_is_nascar said:


> What the heck are you guys talking about? I not once ever said "German", "Germany" or "Nazi". At any rate, I still don't like that logo. When I see it, it doesn't have a "built in the USA" feel about it.


 

So just what exactly does a "built in the USA" logo look like???






...Well this one is already taken... :shakehead


...not to mention that this very well known Made in the USA logo is a whole lot closer to looking like the Nazi sign than the artwork Manoloco created.


----------



## Groundhog66 (Oct 11, 2007)

manoloco said:


> ARC V instead of ARC 5 could be more interesting to play with  :




Very cool, I like it...:twothumbs


----------



## Groundhog66 (Oct 11, 2007)

Not relevant to the thread, deleted


----------



## alex in germany (Oct 11, 2007)

this_is_nascar said:


> What the heck are you guys talking about? I not once ever said "German", "Germany" or "Nazi". At any rate, I still don't like that logo. When I see it, it doesn't have a "built in the USA" feel about it.



Hi, take a look at Post #124. That will explain it.

Btw. i dont see any Nazi Symbol in that Logo.

Alex


----------



## Sinjz (Oct 11, 2007)

this_is_nascar said:


> Sorry, I don't like that logo. It looks to "Asian-based" to me.



That doesn't look "Asian-based", THIS looks "Asian-based" 








jcompton said:


> So just what exactly does a "built in the USA" logo look like???
> ...



How about something like this.


----------



## manoloco (Oct 11, 2007)

:kiss: Nice to hear many liked it. i was reading the thread, recalled that i saw some name votes and recommendations a few days ago, so fiddled with a few ones i came up with.

Then remembered someone wrote ARC 5 (which i think is more useful and wouldnt confuse anyone with another product or with a not currently used emmiter) and thought about ARC V and liked how the A and V look the same and did a logo about it too, didnt convince me and thought it could be nice if all the letters and number were made with that same character in a progression and after moving around some lines in autocad there is the result you have already seen:






*gloworm: its manoloco not monoloco, monoloco means "crazymonkey"  on the other hand manoloco incorrectly translated could mean "crazyhand" , aw what the hell both are funny call me whatever you want LOL.


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## this_is_nascar (Oct 12, 2007)

Sinjz said:


> That doesn't look "Asian-based", THIS looks "Asian-based"
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Thanks for correcting my opinion for me. Sometimes I wonder why I even bother. :shrug:


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## mspeterson (Oct 12, 2007)

What the hell happened to this thread?:thumbsdow

Please take the BS elsewhere...and bring on the new light!!!!!!!!!:twothumbs


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## Sinjz (Oct 12, 2007)

this_is_nascar said:


> Thanks for correcting my opinion for me. Sometimes I wonder why I even bother. :shrug:



It doesn't really have anything to do with your opinion TIN. I was just using your comment as an excuse to play with the image a little.  Those 'Nazi' comments, others have made, had nothing to do with you either. Yet you assumed they were directed at you. Why are you so quick to take offense? :thinking:


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## The_LED_Museum (Oct 12, 2007)

Sounds to me like the UI is going to be simple for some users; but could be programmed more fully for others.
I can't wait to evaluate one of these puppies!!! :twothumbs


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## PoliceScannerMan (Oct 12, 2007)

Doesnt take much for a thread to get way OT these days.... 

Anywho, I got my 2 lights today! Both are twice as bright as my Arc AAA P. 

Love it! The knurl is nice and grippy. I opened the packages, put in the batteries. One went on my work van keyring, the other went on my other keychain. 5 hours of light from a AAA is impressive. (For the brightness)

This is THE keychain light IMO. The common alkaline battery is the key here folks.... :twothumbs


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## ViReN (Oct 12, 2007)

I have a Feeling that UI will be some thing like mixture of Fenix LxT Series and PD

Turn the bezel to high - low (some thing like LxT or PD) and those two levels will be programmable, you can set it at individual level according to your preference. the programming will be done through the Piston .... (the Click Gestures I mean)

.... just a guess.... real thing may be far more sophisticated...


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## Haz (Oct 13, 2007)

manoloco said:


> ARC V instead of ARC 5 could be more interesting to play with  :


 
I like this, especially how one symbol, rotated gradually around 180 degrees actually spelling out the word ARC V.:twothumbs


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## StandardBattery (Oct 13, 2007)

Love the Logo. May not be appropriate for ARC which I presume already has logos... but it is a very cool artistic logo.

I also love the _second opinion_ on what looks Asian. 

OK now lets see a picture of the light so we can see if the two are a good pair.


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## smokelaw1 (Oct 15, 2007)

StandardBattery said:


> OK now lets see a picture of the light so we can see if the two are a good pair.


 
Tricksy hobbitses.


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## Gatsby (Oct 15, 2007)

Way back in the mists of time Peter posted a few pictures of a prototype - they are in the old now closed thread from the marketplace manufacturers forum. But here is a link just for those who haven't seen them (and they explain much of the "PD" references that people make - and it isn't just because McGizmo is involved in the project ).

Cheers!

http://www.cpfmarketplace.com/mp/showthread.php?t=126557&page=18

Personally, I think the logo matches the quite modernistic look of the "New LS/PD/V/5" quite nicely.


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## marcdilnutt (Oct 15, 2007)

Wolfgang_Ludwig said:


> Sorry, I don´t like the logo. Looks like using the parts and playing around with the well known nazi symbol.



Or if you look at it another way, using the parts and playing around with the well known Hindu good luck symbol.


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## manoloco (Oct 15, 2007)

Thujone said:


> +1 Very cool, I now throw my support behind the V! As long as he is allowed to use that great graphic....


 
of course, if Peter likes it, he can use it.


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## paulr (Oct 16, 2007)

Maybe someone can improve on this idea. It's not so good as-is.


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## Stillphoto (Oct 16, 2007)

Haz said:


> I like this, especially how one symbol, rotated gradually around 180 degrees actually spelling out the word ARC V.:twothumbs



Exactly. Great idea using that design element. 

And for what it's worth, I'm of the Jewish faith and don't find this to be offensive in any way. There are alot of shapes we could misconstrue, and this just doesn't do that for me.


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## jayflash (Oct 17, 2007)

This whole soap opera is more humorous than frustrating for me. 

I'm hoping that if the light is ever released that's it's so perfect and affordable that it's good I knew nothing about it...or I'd have been frustrated with the wait.

I hope Peter knows what he's doing because it will be to our benefit.


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## jcompton (Oct 17, 2007)

jayflash said:


> I hope Peter knows what he's doing...


 
:shakehead

If Peter didn't know what he was doing, the light would have probably been released already and his inbox would be full of complaints by now. 

The more time Peter takes to do it right the first time, the less time you will be without it once you have already paid for it.

It will all be worth the wait! :thumbsup:


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## StandardBattery (Oct 17, 2007)

> Way back in the mists of time Peter posted a few pictures of a prototype ...


 
*:thumbsup: Thanks!* I hadn't seen those yet. Or read all that stuff...



> The more time Peter takes to do it right the first time, the less time you will be without it once you have already paid for it.


Actually at this point it sounds like he is waiting for inventory, and keeping an eye on the programmers. Some UI testing for sure, but it seems like now he is probably waiting much as we are most of the time.


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## Gransee (Oct 17, 2007)

yes, I am waiting on a lot of things but there is plenty to do in the between times. 

It appears that the mechanicals are finally dialed in. Therefore, I issued a PO for the production machining today. 

The bezel is Ti, the body and head are HA plated Al and the piston is nickle plated Al.

The LED is epoxied to a bulkhead accessed from the front of the head. 

The initial skus will be a LS with NG sleeve, LS with guarded sleeve, ng sleeve by itself and guarded sleeve by itself. All sleeves are 1x123 twist and momentary push button. It appears that the LED will be the latest P4, unless something changes by the end of the year. 

Don sent me some of his mcClicky switches. We are talking about making a 1x123 clicky sometime in the distant future.

We are currently working on proj6 of the firmware, which adds factory calibration routines. 

peter


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## KeyGrip (Oct 17, 2007)

Gatsby said:


> http://www.cpfmarketplace.com/mp/showthread.php?t=126557&page=18



Sweet backflipping Christ I want one of those lights!!!!!


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## Sigman (Oct 17, 2007)

Any possibility of reducing the use of Ti for a more affordable/basic version? It just seems that every Ti light I run across is out of reach to my wallet (as well as many others). 

Maybe an Arc-LS-V "standard" of sorts? Love the pics of the prototype! There's a whole lot of us that miss Don's "Slate" version of his PD - seems a "standard" could fill that niche?

I really need to go back through this entire thread to review what's been talked about.


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## Gransee (Oct 17, 2007)

quick draft of the menu operation:

The switch system has two methods of operating the various stages. pushing the tail button or twisting the head. 

The push button is momentary only. THe twist of course is used to keep the light on so it can be set down (both packs tail stand), etc. 

The switch system has 2 physical stages: stage1 and stage2. these come from the factory assigned to low and high levels. In this basic setup, the system works exactly like the PD.

This means to access low, you give the push button a light press or twist the head to the first position. To access high, you press the button all the way or twist the head all the way. 

The unit has a 3rd virtual stage which is disabled from the factory but can be enabled by the user. The 3rd stage is access by quickly mashing the button or flicking the head to stage2. If this is done quickly (in less than 1/4 second, which most people can do without much practice according to my tests), the light will access the 3rd stage. 

The operator then has quick access to 3 stages. These could be low, med, high, etc.

To access stage1 (low, etc): push the button lightly or twist to the first stage. 
to access stage2 (med, etc): push the button slowly to full or twist slowly to the second stage
to access stage3 (high, full power, etc): push the button quickly to full, or twist the head quickly to the second stage

In real world use, the operator normally uses low or medium. Full power could then be access in an emergency by mashing down on the button. 

If the light has been in stage1 for awhile and you want stage3, you must power cycle the light and go straight to full power. 

This is probably a lot for some people. From the factory, stage3 is set to the same level as stage2 so you won't see any difference from pressing the button at different speeds. Repeat: from the factory, the light operates just like a PD. You do not need to use stage3 or access the settings menu to use this light!

The settings menu

You may want to change the brightness of the various stages. this can be done using the settings menu. the light is programmed with a pool of 5 levels and 1 strobe level, which can be assigned to any of the stages. 

The ampere setting for each level depends on the calibration. From a recent test:

lvl1: 0.8mA
lvl2: 28mA
lvl3: 256mA
lvl4: 500mA
lvl5: 990mA
lvl6 (strobe): lvl5 current setting, 50% duty cycle, 10hz rate
<measured with a Fluke 189>

This is just an example! Please don't assume that that all units are programmed for 500mA on lvl4. The lights are brightness calibrated for a similiar light output from to unit. The current therefore will vary from unit to unit. 

To enter the settings menu:

1. twist the head to stage1
2. press the button ~10 times until the units starts to flash slowly
note1: you don't need to count, I just keep pressing the button until I see a different flash rate.
Menu lockout safety feature: You must complete the 10 presses within 10 seconds of first turning the light on to stage1. this is plenty of time. This way the light will not enter the settings menu if you are using it for morse code, etc. If you miss the window, power cycle and try again. I added this lockout after using the light on a camping trip and accidently entered the menu while looking for a wild animal near our tent.

conventions used: flipping from one option to another is done by pressing the button briefly (letting the light return to stage1). selecting a option is done by pressing and holding the button until the light indicates by a slow flash

3. each stage is identified by a series of flashes. 1 for stage1, 2 flashes for stage2, etc. each time you press the button, the light will switch to the next stage (looping at the top back to 1) and indicate by flashing its code

4. select the stage you want to change by pressing and holding after you see the display code for the stage you want.

for example: enter the settings menu, press until you see 2 flashes, press and hold. 

5. once you select the stage, you will enter the brightness setting for that stage. the light will stop the slow flash and go steady (or strobe) at the current setting for that stage. to change the level, press the button. with each press, it will toggle to the next highest level (looping at the top). 

6. to select a particular level for that stage, press and hold. the light will slowly flash and then exit the menu. you may then use the light normally. the new setting has been saved to flash and is immediately available.


notice that there is a common operating convention that runs through the ui. press to toggle through options, hold to select an option. slow flash to indicate option is selected.

remember this is a rough draft of the instructions. I have had better luck explaining it to people verbally so the instruction may not make much sense. of course a video, graphics, etc will help. this is a rough draft.

peter


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## THE_dAY (Oct 17, 2007)

hi Sigman,

yes all those Ti lights are way too expensive for my tastes, luckily none have actually caught my interest.
as for the new Arc, the only thing Ti on the light will be the bezel ring.


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## Thujone (Oct 17, 2007)

if this light comes in less than 300 it is going to be tough to pass up...


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## jcompton (Oct 17, 2007)

Thanks for the update Peter! Looks like we will all be in for a treat when this one becomes available!!! 



> if this light comes in less than 300 it is going to be tough to pass up...


 
This would be wonderful!!! :twothumbs

John


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## Daniel_sk (Oct 18, 2007)

Excellent menu operation!



Thujone said:


> if this light comes in less than 300 it is going to be tough to pass up...


My secret wish is something arround $150, but I know the $300 is much more realistic...


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## Daekar (Oct 18, 2007)

That looks like a great, no-nonsense UI! I like it - and eagerly await the bank-draining release. Keep up the good work Peter!


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## smokelaw1 (Oct 18, 2007)

Peter, 

Once again I believe you have hit the nail on the head. The options are there SHOULD ONE WANT THEM. Or we could just use an already 100% functional light with a PD-like operation that we all know and love. 

I'm thinking I would wind up just using the two levels, real low, and real high. 

Can't wait to see these released. 

One question, if I may, though. Say I set level three as the strobe. If I want immediate HIGH, is there an "intermediate" push, or if I immediately push hard enough to get high, would level three be activated? 

Many thanks, 

SL1


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## Groundhog66 (Oct 18, 2007)

Very exiting update Peter, I am really looking forward to this offering.



Tim


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## err0r (Oct 18, 2007)

smokelaw1 said:


> Peter,
> 
> Once again I believe you have hit the nail on the head. The options are there SHOULD ONE WANT THEM. Or we could just use an already 100% functional light with a PD-like operation that we all know and love.
> 
> ...



As Peter stated above:
_"The switch system has 2 physical stages: stage1 and stage2. these come from the factory assigned to low and high levels. In this basic setup, the system works exactly like the PD.
...snip...
The unit has a 3rd virtual stage which is disabled from the factory but can be enabled by the user. The 3rd stage is access by quickly mashing the button or flicking the head to stage2. If this is done quickly (in less than 1/4 second, which most people can do without much practice according to my tests), the light will access the 3rd stage."_

I guess there are at least two possible ways of developing this UI. One way would be for the circuitry to take a (very!) brief pause (obviously no longer than a 1/4 second) to determine what light level one is really trying to activate and then immediately jump to that level. The other would be to instantly jump to the currently activated level from the very start, in discreet steps as the switch moves through each position. This wouldn't be noticeable at all if the stages were ordered in increasing brightness, but may cause a momentary bright flash if, for example, one had decided that state 2 should be brighter than state 3 (or stage 1 brighter than stage 2, etc).

Of the two possibilities that I can think of, the second one is the more likely, as the default programming, and indeed sensible user re-programming, is unlikely to assign the semi-restricted stage to a low mode, and an unnoticeable delay in high mode activation is presumably preferable to a brief bright flash upon low mode activation.

Just my thoughts, anyway.


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## McGizmo (Oct 18, 2007)

smokelaw1 said:


> Peter,
> 
> ........
> 
> ...


 
I was able to follow Peter's written explaination above but then he had talked me through the programing so it made perfect sense to me. The light has the two stages as explained and this third virtual stage is accessible by a quick shift from off though stage two. Obviously this is not as clean or independant like a third contact or dedicated stage would be but it is viable and useful, IMHO.

If one wanted strobe as well as immediate high one could program the strobe to stage two. the down side here I see is that you would likely encounter strobe on ocassion when you didn't want it.

In some ways, I believe the clickie pak does a better job of utilizing the three stages. With the clickie pak, stage 1 and stage 3 would be the more "independant" stages. With clickie off, head tight on pak puts you in stage 3 and the clickie gives you momentary or latched access to stage three. With the clickie off, you crack the head loose just a bit and you are in stage 1 with momentary or latched access to stage 1. To access stage 2 you would have to latch the clickie "on" either with the head very loose or already in stage 1 or stage 3 and then rotate the head until stage 2 were engaged. I would guess that the clickie pak might be preferred for those with tactical needs but it is just a guess.

As Peter stated, stage 2 and stage 3 can be set for the same level in which case the light behaves just like a PD or a clickie two stage light if a clickie pak is used (available). What you do get in addition to the PD's from the LS is not just the potential of the virtual stage 3 but the ability to set the other 2 stages to the light level you prefer. :thumbsup:

As an aside that is likely of interest to some of you, it does appear that for the most part there is compatibility between the PD lights and this new LS. I would guess that one should be able to swap heads and paks with satisfactory results. YMMV and the proof in the particular case will depend on the particular case.


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## hank (Oct 18, 2007)

Peter said earlier that the older battery packs won't swap, I recall--I asked.


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## georget98 (Oct 18, 2007)

err0r said:


> As Peter stated above:
> _
> ...I guess there are at least two possible ways of developing this UI. One way would be for the circuitry to take a (very!) brief pause (obviously no longer than a 1/4 second) to determine what light level one is really trying to activate and then immediately jump to that level. The other would be to instantly jump to the currently activated level from the very start, in discreet steps as the switch moves through each position. This wouldn't be noticeable at all if the stages were ordered in increasing brightness, but may cause a momentary bright flash if, for example, one had decided that state 2 should be brighter than state 3 (or stage 1 brighter than stage 2, etc).
> 
> Of the two possibilities that I can think of, the second one is the more likely, as the default programming, and indeed sensible user re-programming, is unlikely to assign the semi-restricted stage to a low mode, and an unnoticeable delay in high mode activation is presumably preferable to a brief bright flash upon low mode activation...._


_

It's anybody's guess at this point unless Peter chimes in. I wrote one of the ARC-4 simulators/flight trainers and had to distinguish between short clicks and longer presses, sometimes with nothing happening until the "we're sure it's a press" timeout occured. I'd have to look at the code but I think it was 250 ms. Some of the constants were adjusted on the fly to accommodate the user's ability, such as double-click speed.

(what's a PD?)_


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## Codeman (Oct 18, 2007)

Sounds good to me on the UI! :thumbsup:

PD info can be found here. McGizmo designed them, and was a consultant on the new Arc. The new Arc incorporates some PD-like features, thus the reference.


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## McGizmo (Oct 18, 2007)

What I appreciate about the UI here is that aside from timing issue in getting into the program mode (easy to do, IMHO yet very unlikely to happen by accident) and the need to rapidly go from off to stage two to get stage 3 activated there is no time issue or click or press or other time conditional input required or necessary. 

If you were to hand a LS to someone, I believe they would be both able to get light out of it as well as quickly discover how to control the output level.


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## NoFair (Oct 18, 2007)

Looking great Peter! 

Now to start funding this baby

Sverre


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## nyyankeefen (Oct 18, 2007)

Daniel_sk said:


> Excellent menu operation!
> 
> 
> My secret wish is something arround $150, but I know the $300 is much more realistic...



and thats why I expect to be passing on this one


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## Gatsby (Oct 18, 2007)

A very intriguing light - and the UI seems pretty straightforward (I'll have to ponder it a bit more but thus far it seems to make sense). It combines some elements of the old Arc4, some elements of the flupic, and truly some elements of the Liteflux (the UI that is). While still being unique and usable. 

Given it is like a programmable production PD I hope it weighs in less than a PD - but don't expect it to be at Novatac levels... Hopefully less than a Titan? The more I think about the time and cost going in to this light, and the potential units that will be sold ... 

Peter has his hands full setting a price on this as a business model decision. I suppose that once you top, say, $200 maybe then demand becomes more and more price inelastic as those buyers will be less likely to not purchase based on an incremental increase. Given the number of potential buyers at CPF alone - just to use a sample we all know and love - I suspect there are certain price points where demand will drop off rapidly, stabilize and drop off again at another higher point, rather than in a linear fashion. But there is a price above which a lot of buyers will drop off, no matter how cool the light is. I don't know what that price point is - I'd guess somewhere around the $200 limit. So the question is whether there is sufficient volume at a lower price to offset the lower contribution margin toward the up front costs of this project - or whether there is sufficient demand at a higher price to offset the up front costs despite a much higher contribution margin. One would hope that the AAA, which is something of a mature product and should be more or less a cash cow, and the ongoing sales of that light are contributing to the new LS as well. 

I admit I have no idea what the fixed input costs of production for a light like this would be ... materials and labor alone ... much less the r&d costs, but I fear that the ultimate MSRP may well top $300 but I can't imagine it costing close to $400 and handmade lights. I suppose at this point...


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## Oddjob (Oct 18, 2007)

Thanks for the info on the UI Peter. I am getting very excited about this light but I'm not certain what price would make me pass on it. I suppose based on my previous purchases I would not go much higher than $200.00. I know it would be worth it if it were more than that but I am also keeping my options open for other new lights.


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## russtang (Oct 20, 2007)

I like the new design whatever it will be called.

I would like a 2AA battery pack for sure.


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## :)> (Oct 20, 2007)

I have been thinking about the UI for a little while now and I believe it represents EXACTLY what I want out of a PD-style light. 

Awhile back, there was a thread in McGizmo's forum that we discussed "The Perfect McGizmo"; it was started by none other than the legendary Hodsta.

What I was hoping for was a PD that could have the standard settings accessed the same way that they have always been activated but I wanted an option to have full-output momentary via the piston. 

I re-read my post and it seems that the Arc-LS provides EXACTLY what I was asking for with a bonus. I wanted momentary access to maximum output via the piston and the ability to access the lowest level also via the piston. It appears that the new Arc is even better because, if I read it correctly, I will be able to access both levels of light (output set by me) AND a 3rd level which I can set at the highest level (around an amp); ALL of these via the tailcap AND by twisting the head. This clearly exceeded what I had hoped for. 

Now, that I believe in the concept 100 percent, all that remains is to be satisfied by the way that the concept is executed and the way that the light works; I am confident that it will meet all of my expectations. 

I believe that I understand how to access the virtual level. I believe that it is accessed when the switch, from the off position passes from off to high in less than 1/4 of a second. This means that if the switch remains in the low position for more than a 1/4 of a second that the virtual level cannot be accessed without turning the light off and then on again... right?

I also know that there is no low or high level as each of the 2 levels and the virtual level can be user configured in any combination of the 5 levels. 

I am getting more and more excited about this light every second of each day. In my opinion, as long a durability, reliability and waterproofness are not compromised and as long as the circuit is at least as efficient at others that are currently available, the I believe that this light will be the best available light in its class (1 cell EDC lights w/reflectors 20 mm or less). 

Fantastic!


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## Cyclops942 (Oct 20, 2007)

goatee,

You're correct about how to access the virtual level. I've played with-- err, tested the light, and it's pretty simple. The depth of the stroke required is controlled by how tightly the two parts are screwed together, obviously, so this can be adjusted for user preference.


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## The Coach (Oct 21, 2007)

:thinking: 32 pages??????? I didn't read that much in 4 years of HS  Being the CinC of the Big Baby Brigade (we hate to wait), I'm glad I just discovered this thread.


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## Kelvino (Oct 21, 2007)

If the new ARC keeps the design as shown in the pictures of the previous ARC-LS thread and it is supposed to be an EDC light for various situations
I wonder how the design feature like the gaps between head and body will cope with sand, mud, dust, (sticky) fluids.
For me it seems there is plenty of space to collect dirt. Ofcourse it doesn't matter if it willl be used mainly in our homes (it should be clean there) but outside...

Maybe PD owners/users can shed some light on this, because I mainly handle E-series Surefires and HDS EDC.
Both I can easily clean with a cloth or on my pants/sleeves when they dropped onto the closeby muddy forest ground.
Overall I was first surprised by the design compared to the old LS, but I kinda like it now and looking forward for it.

I just hope people will never call it a cheap knock-off of a PD, because after reading all these pages and looking back at Peter's great work in the past, It's totally not.
I for myself always like to see great persons like Don and Peter working hand-in-hand than against each other.

Will a knurled body/head will ever be made of these.


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## paulr (Oct 21, 2007)

I don't see it as a cheap knockoff, it's more like the collaborations between custom knife designers and production makers, e.g. Benchmade has produced knives designed by Emerson, Elishewitz(?), Boguszeswki and others; Spyderco, CRKT, etc have done similar projects, all with the custom designers fully involved and getting paid. It's a great way to make those designs affordable: the custom version of the knife often has a four figure price tag while the Benchmade (or Spyderco, CRKT, etc.) is in the $100 range. In the realm of even higher end gadgets, a George Daniels coaxial escapement wristwatch cost something like $100,000 (one tenth of a U.S. megabuck, not a typo) but due to his work with Omega you can now have an Omega-made version for a mere $3000 or so. Again, there's more than an order of magnitude cost difference that makes the design accessible to ordinary, committed enthusiasts instead of just the very wealthy. In the case of this light I'm concerned that the differential won't be large enough, this light will apparently be in the $200-300 range while original McGizmo lights were around the same in Al, with the Ti versions not all that much more in the scheme of things (mostly under $500). Getting the production light takes almost as much financial outlay as getting a custom light. I realize that the difference is somewhat illusory but the images presented are something made one by one in an artist's atelier vs something that rolled off an assembly line. On pure technical grounds this light looks great. I'm just not sure I'm ready for this type of expenditure for a production light even though I've spent more on some custom lights. However, that's just me, others are very excited about this new LS, and when it comes out, of course I may also get caught up in the excitement.

*Update:* I want to make clear that I don't think the new LS is just a PD reimplementation. It's completely different under the skin and brings important and interesting innovations of its own, especially in its combination of microprocessor control with the tactile two level pushbutton. I'm looking forward to seeing user reports. I'm just  is all.


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## Kiessling (Oct 21, 2007)

With the PD, the junction of head and body as well as the piston end to collect dirt over time. On the piston it is cosmetical only as the o-ring rides well inside the tube. With the upper end I could imagine dirt getting in the way of the o-ring activation in theory, but I never encountered it.

I do use my lights in pockets full of dirt and lint (yeah  ), and over the weeks the PD collects some of it. I clean it every now and then and I am fine so far.
As Don uses it in his sandy environment I guess we shall not worry.
I do not see a reason why this design would be any more vulnerable than any other twisty light.

bernie


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## :)> (Oct 21, 2007)

I have taken Ti PD-S lights on numerous backpacking trips in wet and muddy conditions and the light does collect some crap at the piston and in the neck but it has never once failed to function properly. 

It is easier to clean the crap out of the neck than it is to clean it out of the piston.


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## BobVA (Oct 21, 2007)

The Coach said:


> :thinking: 32 pages??????? I didn't read that much in 4 years of HS  Being the CinC of the Big Baby Brigade (we hate to wait), I'm glad I just discovered this thread.




You should have seen the thread on the ARC 4 UI. I downloaded that to an ebook and read it on a business trip. Sort of the flashlight version of a summer thriller...well to me anyhow. 

I think it's fantastic that ARC lets us peek through this knot hole in their construction fence. :thumbsup:

Cheers,
Bob


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## Stillphoto (Oct 21, 2007)

With my pd I got into the habit of cleaning it every other month or so..sometimes longer. Never was it full of anything except some pocket lint / a little dust. The o-rings do their job and I'd just clean them off and relube them a bit and it was gtg.


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## jef144 (Oct 22, 2007)

*SW updates?*

Peter, I wonder if you're ready to address how we might update the software (microcode in the light itself) once a unit is in the field?

As for what works for me, give me a feature list of the updated software, and a price, and I can decide whether to ship it back to the factory to be re-flashed.


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## Kelvino (Oct 22, 2007)

Well, if the light does collect dirt over time but still maintains functionality and is easy to clean, than I'm ready for it...depending on price


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## carl (Oct 22, 2007)

Since a clickie was mentioned for the distant future, I was hoping that the user could eventually choose the piston switch to either be momentary or latch. This would be accomplished by twisting the head similar to choosing light levels.


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## mridude (Oct 23, 2007)

Oooooohhhh I'm afraid that I don't like it...it looks like a boomerang that we all know the indiginous peoples of Australia used to hurt birds and those sweet faced kangaroos.......( to feed themselves and their families...)

.............are you &*^%$#* kidding me?

It looks fine!

More power to you for trying...you'll never please everyone.


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## this_is_nascar (Oct 23, 2007)

Coach, I love your sig-line. How true it is.


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## carl (Oct 23, 2007)

THE_dAY said:


> pics here:
> 
> http://www.cpfmarketplace.com/mp/showpost.php?p=2046671&postcount=513
> 
> http://www.cpfmarketplace.com/mp/showpost.php?p=2046702&postcount=524



love that glossy HAIII!
are the head slots going to be changed a bit to distinguish it a bit more from the PD?


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## Ritch (Oct 24, 2007)

One question. If the bezel is turned to low brightness level, can I activate the high brightness level directly by pressing the piston? (Similar to the SF L1 or A2)

richard


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## :)> (Oct 24, 2007)

Ritch said:


> One question. If the bezel is turned to low brightness level, can I activate the high brightness level directly by pressing the piston? (Similar to the SF L1 or A2)
> 
> richard



You will be able to activate level 2 which can be set at any one of the drive levels available but you will not be able to access the 3rd, virtual level.


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## paulr (Oct 25, 2007)

Will the new LS have a buck/boost converter so it can use 3.6v rechargeables properly? i somehow remember the answer is yes but I can't find it in the thread. Thanks.


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## Peter Atwood (Oct 25, 2007)

I'm curious if the future clickie option will be an upgrade to an existing unit. I will certainly buy one of these when the first wave comes out but I would much prefer a clickie down the road when it becomes available. I'm assuming that I would be able to buy the clickie as an add on correct?


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## Gransee (Oct 27, 2007)

As you know, I plan on shipping the LS with just 2 levels. Low and High. I am currently looking at a low of about 30mA and a high of about 700mA or less. This is pretty typical for a 1x123 light. The units will be calibrated for similiar brightness, so where the actual current falls from unit to unit will be unique to each unit.

--

Now of course if you are willing to put up with less runtime, more heat, special batteries, etc, the driver can deliver more current to the LED.

I think this would be a quick and easy mod for those looking for a performance boost. This would be done by loading a premium battery and then using the settings menu to select a higher level. 

Just understand that some of those levels are so high that runtime will be reduced when you use them and wimpy batteries need not apply. I get good results from non-protected rechargeables (3.6v nom, ~$15/cell). 

On the protoype that I carry with me each day, I have stage3 turned on and I use a non-protected rechargeable. The 3rd stage is set to a higher level than the factory default. I use that level in ~10 second bursts to see distant objects. The other 2 stages are set to the default.

peter


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## Gransee (Oct 27, 2007)

Oh, it just occured to me that someone might wonder why I would set the factory default high at 700mA. 

Its a goldielocks setting in my opinion. The PD is set for 525mA but some 1x123 lights go higher than that. We found with the Arc4 that some of the batteries people were using had problems when the LED current went much above 700mA. Therefore, I have tried to provide a high level but not so high it causes problems with cheap batteries. Some people don't read the instructions and don't feel they should have to. For them, the light will work without any fuss. 

Even now, some people might be getting a headache. Remember, this wouldn't be an issue if I just removed the option of any higher levels. 

peter


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## paulr (Oct 27, 2007)

700ma sounds like a good choice. It's about as high as makes sense for anything resembling a long running light. It is higher than the brand F P3D which is a TWO cell light that is very popular with the cheap lumens crowd (the P3D runs its led at 650 ma, I believe). The alternative if you want to set it higher would be to back off in steps as the battery depletes, like the Arc4+ did. But then you're back on that computerized path. Does the new LS have its own thermal monitoring and protection?


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## Gransee (Oct 27, 2007)

I mentioned this earlier in the previous thread. 

The LS has temperature and voltage fallback capabilities. When the battery is too depleted for the current level, it will drop to the next lower level. The power can also be reduced before the LED reaches the manufacturer's rated limit. This helps protect the LED and battery. 

Not sure what you meant by, "It's about as high as makes sense for anything resembling a long running light". A multi-level light allows either the brightness or runtime to be maxed, its the user's choice. 

peter


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## paulr (Oct 27, 2007)

Gransee said:


> Not sure what you meant by, "It's about as high as makes sense for anything resembling a long running light". A multi-level light allows either the brightness or runtime to be maxed, its the user's choice.
> 
> peter


Right, I think of the new LS as a 2-level light (I guess there's a 3rd level now which I haven't yet tried to understand) as opposed to a multi level like the Arc4+. And I think of the high level as being what one would expect from a bright edc light (sort of like the old 1-stage LS), a brightness vs power tradeoff still made in terms of edc usage, i.e. at least an hour or so of operation. This is unlike (say) Surefire tactical lights that pull 2+ amps from the batteries for maybe 20 minutes of operation, never intended as edc's. The low stage is a separate matter and is used somewhat differently. 

As for the high setting, there's a point at which 123's start operating much less efficiently (less total energy capacity per Silverfox's tests). Certainly the default "high" setting shouldn't be above where that efficiency loss gets significant. I'm presuming that this is all configurable by the user so they can always choose their own settings if they don't like the defaults.

Good to know about the voltage and temperature fallback. This is the kind of thing sets the good lights apart from the toys.


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## :)> (Oct 27, 2007)

All I can say is...

...Bring it on!

:twothumbs


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## jcompton (Oct 27, 2007)

:twothumbs Good to hear! Can't wait!


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## Gransee (Oct 28, 2007)

For most typical night time use, 10-30 lumens is plenty. For daytime, 40-60 lumens does the job. 

Occasionally you need all the brightness you can get for a short time. Something north of 100 lumens. This is used to see a distant object, check out a noise, blind an attacker, etc. By using this brightest level occasionally, the battery lasts longer and the level is brighter to your dark adjusted eyes. This means you can see further and more clearly with the same power level.

peter


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## CM (Oct 28, 2007)

When is expected date for production? Is there going to be a beta test period?


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## Gransee (Oct 28, 2007)

The LS is in production right now. Production will take awhile of course. 

I do not know when it will ship, how much it will cost or how many lumens it will produce. Sorry. I won't know that information until we have production units completed. 

The units have already been beta tested several times and I plan on continuing with testing. I would like you (CM) to test a unit again once the firmware reaches a certain level of completion. I would like to add a few more levels and fine tune the fall back routines first. Right now we are working on calibration. 

peter


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## Nebula (Oct 28, 2007)

Excellent news! I look forward to further details and the sales thread. Thanks. Kirk 




Gransee said:


> The LS is in production right now. Production will take awhile of course.
> 
> I do not know when it will ship, how much it will cost or how many lumens it will produce. Sorry. I won't know that information until we have production units completed.
> 
> ...


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## paulr (Oct 28, 2007)

Peter, any idea what the finish color is going to be? I notice that my previous LS series lights have had an olive-greenish cast to the HA while the Arc AA/AAA's I've seen have been a more neutral gray. The olive drab resemblance made the original LS look a bit more like a military device, which I think caused me some minor airport hassles when I travelled with it. It never got confiscated but several times I had to explain to the TSA guy that it was a flashlght, turn it on and off, etc., before getting it back (still with a look of suspicion in some cases). I never had that problem with the more benign looking Fenix L1P. So on both aesthetic and practical grounds I'd recommend neutral gray (or black) for the new LS's finish, instead of greenish.

For $$$ reasons I've tried to avoid being too interested in the new LS but it really is sounding like a well-designed light so far. I'm looking forward to the unveiling.


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## Kiessling (Oct 28, 2007)

PG said:


> For most typical night time use, 10-30 lumens is plenty. For daytime, 40-60 lumens does the job.



Yes, agreed. But with your 700/30 mA settings you are shooting too high and too low compared to those values.
Looking at the PD ... the 30mA is ok when it is really dark but clearly not sufficient for much more whereas the 525mA is plenty bright with some runtime, that you won't have at 700mA. 
I miss the "standard useful level" in the standard configuration.
bernie


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## jcompton (Oct 28, 2007)

:twothumbs


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## Gransee (Oct 28, 2007)

Kiessling said:


> Yes, agreed. But with your 700/30 mA settings you are shooting too high and too low compared to those values.
> Looking at the PD ... the 30mA is ok when it is really dark but clearly not sufficient for much more whereas the 525mA is plenty bright with some runtime, that you won't have at 700mA.
> I miss the "standard useful level" in the standard configuration.
> bernie



You are right Bernie. Someone noticed and said something. 

There a couple of trades off here. The factory default is not the ideal setup for an informed user. But there are sufficient levels in the settings menu to set that up.

I could set the default to say 30/256 or 30/500. The downside is that there is even more pressure to read the manual since the defaults are not as bright as some people expect. 

Said in another way, the levels that people should be using for most usage (more efficient levels) are not levels that impress the average person. Say the ideal was 1/500/1200. The 1200 wouldn't work with weak batteries so the light might only produce 1/500 out of the box worse case. 1 is so dim you can't see the beam in a well lit room and 500 is ok but not as bright as some might expect from a light this expensive. What do you think? I could set the default to just about anything. 700 is still not as bright as some expect but it is doing the most it can from a weak battery. The Arc4s were set to about 700mA to the led (about 1.1amps @3volts on the input if I recall). 

Another item while I am thinking about it. In the past, we have always shipped the LS with a duracell battery. The duracell will run the light in the default configuration and it keeps the initial costs down. People are recomended to buy a rechargeable kit (which I would like to provide on our site) and we will provide instructions on how to acces the higher power levels. 

Another side thought, you guys do understand why you can get more useful peak power from a rechargeable compared to a non-rechargeable?

oh boy. Merri is making homemade ice cream! 

peter


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## Kiessling (Oct 28, 2007)

PG said:


> oh boy. Merri is making homemade ice cream!



This was quite unfair! 


On topic ... I see the problem. Useful would be 300-500 mA on high whereas impressing would be the max you can get, runtime be damned.

I guess this depends on your target market. I can't say anything here except we have the "I want brightest" attitude here a lot on CPF, too.
One question worth thinking through might be which part of your market will be able to read the manual and re-programm the light and which part won't. 

bernie


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## nightshade (Oct 28, 2007)

oh boy. Merri is making homemade ice cream! 

peter[/QUOTE]

Homemade Vanilla? Thats my favorite. Looking forward to the new LS. Thanks for the update.


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## Gransee (Oct 28, 2007)

I am glad you see it too. It isn't easy to configure the light for everyone. Either you add complexity or subtract capability. 

Some good news is that it takes less than a minute to change the level. Dial down that 700mA, add the third stage, etc. 

Btw, if you are buying rechargeables for the LS, I recommend un-protected cells with a no-load voltage of 4.2v (3.6-3.7v nom). I have seen these for less than $15/each. I have been using mp123 and blue123s for over 2 years now. When the levels are set right, the cells last a long time without trading max power.


Sometimes people don't realize how much more efficient and longer running they can make the light if they cut the current just a little bit. It is a non-linear relationship. IE, drop the current by 1/2, runtime goes up by more than half. The LED alone becomes as much as twice as efficient with 1/4 the current. 

Thats why it is important to provide enough levels and find a trade off on how easy they are to access. I prefer 2-3 stages to the switch versus a dial for example. We have found that with dials, people inadverdantly go back to using too much power again. The temptation is to spin the dial to max each time you use the light. 

Another important thing in the interface is you need to be able to get to the full power level as easily and quickly as possible. And that level should be maxed. I am talking efficiency and runtime does not matter. You want maximum light output. But remember, it is only supposed to be used briefly. Otherwise, forget it is there.

Back when we had the Arc4, some people said, why not have the light work at the boost level all the time? Well, its a law of physics type deal. The battery won't put up with it and the housing is too small for that much heat and carrying a larger battery or housing will just get the whole thing left at home. Like I say, any dope can make a light brighter by making it bigger. 

They then say, "what good is a level that only last for 10 seconds?" There are not getting the paradigm evidently. 

A good design takes advantage of a force multiplier effect if possible.

peter


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## paulr (Oct 29, 2007)

The suggestion of unprotected rcr123's is interesting. I've been scared of unprotected cells, and skeptical of li ions in general and rcr123's in particular. Based on some time edc'ing lights with rechargeable cells though (mostly a Fenix L1p with a cheap AA NiMH) it seems to me that once you're using a rechargeable with enough capacity to last through a few days normal usage, runtime really doesn't matter any more. You just recharge it just like you already recharge your cell phone every few days. So 1 hour of runtime isn't significantly better than 2 or 3 hours. Once it's below an hour that might start to cramp your style if you use it for evening walks or something like that. But 1 hour is really about enough. I mostly ran my L1p on a cheapo 1600 mah nimh cell even though I had 2500 mah cells available. The capacity difference just didn't matter in the way I used the light. It only meant I had to recharge more often while sitting around at home, no big deal. 

So at least for rechargeable users the 700 mah high level in the new LS seems fine. For primary 123 users, I guess it depends on how much you use the high setting. Seems to me that with my PD Mule, I mostly use low with an occasional jolt of high when something needs close attention.

I'm wondering what dial-type multi level lights are out there. I know of the Spy 005, Surefire U2, and this new Peak First Responder thingie. I have a Spy and have played with a U2. I tend to use the Spy at level 3 or 4, with some sensitivity to the idea that the higher levels eat batteries pretty fast. I just haven't felt the temptation to flip it up to 6 all the time, though that's my cheapskate instincts and maybe I'd do it differently with rechargeables.

I recently retired my L0D CE (3-level) in favor of a Seoul-ized L0P (1 level equal to the L0D CE's high) recently, just to get rid of the L0DCE's UI clutter. Yes it means less runtime, but so what, I have an AAA NiMH in it and the lower runtime just means recharging every couple weeks instead of every 3 or 4 weeks. It's just no sweat. But, with a more ergonomic 2 stage switch (like the PD, LS, etc.) I'd use the low level more.


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## iconoclast (Oct 29, 2007)

Gransee said:


> ... Either you add complexity or subtract capability.



Considering the number of manufacturers who have managed to do both at the same time, the sheer amount of engineering (and just plain thought, for that matter) that is being put into this light makes it much more attractive than any other feature could do.
I wasn't initially hooked when I first heard about it, (compared to some other options available) but the more I read/hear this one, the more interesting it becomes.
Thanks Peter.


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## Codeman (Oct 29, 2007)

Will the LS come with homemade ice cream? :duck:


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## CM (Oct 29, 2007)

Gransee said:


> The LS is in production right now. Production will take awhile of course.
> 
> I do not know when it will ship, how much it will cost or how many lumens it will produce. Sorry. I won't know that information until we have production units completed.
> 
> ...



Great to hear. I'll be glad to do any additional testing. Just give me a shout.


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## CM (Oct 29, 2007)

Gransee said:


> ...Another side thought, you guys do understand why you can get more useful peak power from a rechargeable compared to a non-rechargeable?...peter



I'll take a shot at it. Rechargeables (if you mean Li-Ion) have a higher nominal voltage. The closer the voltage of the supply is to the LED voltage, the more efficient the converter becomes. So if you're trying to get 4W instantaneously from a source, you're better off using a rechargeable. (I've been having a similar discussion with a fellow CPF'er on the merits (or demerits) of using AA's in a light that was expected to drive the LED at 350mA.)


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## Dances with Flashlight (Oct 29, 2007)

CM said:


> I'll take a shot at it. Rechargeables (if you mean Li-Ion) have a higher nominal voltage. The closer the voltage of the supply is to the LED voltage, the more efficient the converter becomes. So if you're trying to get 4W instantaneously from a source, you're better off using a rechargeable. (I've been having a similar discussion with a fellow CPF'er on the merits (or demerits) of using AA's in a light that was expected to drive the LED at 350mA.)



Is there a good thread for the unelightened to begin to learn more about batteries for the new LS?


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## Gatsby (Oct 29, 2007)

I find that my personal uses with a programmable light are always to use the least amount of light I can for the task. I set my lows quite low and keep a middle task sort of light, and only use max on rare occasions and only to spot something at a distance for a few seconds, up to maybe 30 seconds. The was true for my Arc 4+, for my HDS, for my Liteflux LF5 and for my Jil JCR2 IT. If I'm lucky enough to pick up a new Arc LS/PD/V etc... I suspect I'll follow a similar protocol. The advantages to me of more efficient emitters are less that higher output, but the ability to get the same amount of light with a longer runtime (albeit with a brighter wide open for the times I use it). But I have not been an extensive user of rechargeables up until now so I'll have to see how that effects my usage patterns... I can see the rationale behind keeping cells topped off light a cell phone and runtime becoming less critical.


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## :)> (Oct 29, 2007)

CM said:


> Great to hear. I'll be glad to do any additional testing. Just give me a shout.


 
I am so very jealous.


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## jcompton (Oct 29, 2007)

:)> said:


> I am so very jealous.


 
Me too!



Congrats CM!


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## Thujone (Oct 29, 2007)

I am just curious where he found an unprotected CR123 worth 15$... Anyone?


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## NoFair (Oct 29, 2007)

Thujone said:


> I am just curious where he found an unprotected CR123 worth 15$... Anyone?


 
Haven't seen them over $7 in ages Leaves me more to buy the light though


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## Gransee (Oct 29, 2007)

Well I haven't had to buy any for awhile. I bought a bunch a couple of years ago and I use them all the time. The only reason I have non-rechargeables around is for compatability testing.

peter


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## PhantomPhoton (Oct 30, 2007)

I like what is in the works for this light. It sounds better and better each time I check this thread.

I've been using LiIon R123s for almost 2 years now. (I've more recently found 18650s and love them even more) I wouldn't buy a CR123 Light nowadays that could not take rechargeable LiIons. However, I would never recommend unprotected cells to anyone I didn't know very _very_ well. Heck I refuse to use them myself. It just takes one little overlooked detail or distraction to mess up one's house during charging or one's body during over discharging.

And $15 for a LiIon 123?  That's so 2002!

Quit over thinking the drive levels for the LED. 
Don't forget the target audience. This light isn't going to be hanging in Walgreens. Anyone who is willing to spend more than $200 on a light is capable of understanding some of the basic limitations of a single CR123 design. And are therefore capable of deciding how much light one needs for a given task in a given situation based upon a given set of eyes. _40 lumens is plenty for such and such_ is a pompous statement and shows clear lack of understanding of the many variables involved.
Keep the UI simple enough that my Mother can operate the light. Keep the options open so that I can customize it to whatever I need for a given task. Ship factory settings with practical settings that my mother could use. Leave the rest to us. :nana:


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## luminata (Oct 30, 2007)

aFter staring at the 2 pics of these great looking lights for weeks now (drooling) it seems that the pocket clip version has deeper more aggressive scallops on the bezel and deeper cut rings on the body as compared to the nonclip smaller version. Is this an optical illsuion? or is this actually the case . I ask because as I scrape together what I hope will be enough dineros to get one of these little beauts, I am also endlessly debating as to which one to actually get. It seems if the scallops are more shallow on the nonclip version it will be even harder to turn the head? 

Hope these are available before the holidays  and I have to agree with some other statements, don't run yourself in circles trying to accomodate all the requests from CPF people . it is quite obvious you have put an incredible amount of time and thought into this light and have already taken into account so many of the desired features for a small EDC light it will most assuredly be a huge hit. A reasonable low / a brite but efficient high and the ablility to make a bit of cutomizing in the output after the fact seems brilliant and great to me. All in a platform that from what I have read in many threads seems to be rock solid and almost failproof in design . I cant wait!!!!


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## Gransee (Oct 30, 2007)

thanks. the heads in both pictures are identical. the only difference between the two lights is the outside battery sleave. even the piston inside is identical.

peter


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## russtang (Nov 1, 2007)

Peter 

I may have missed it but will the LS have a reflector or optic and can you describe the the beam pattern.

thanks


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## skalomax (Nov 2, 2007)

This light does look very promising.

Is late December a good estimate for when these will ship?

Thanks


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## luminata (Nov 6, 2007)

Any updates or new eye-candy for the filthy unwashed Masses? I need a fix to get me thru the week :huh:


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## Gransee (Nov 6, 2007)

skalomax said:


> This light does look very promising.
> 
> Is late December a good estimate for when these will ship?
> 
> Thanks



Definately no. That would not be a good estimate. There are too many variables. The best answer is that it will be ready when it is done. A safe answer is to say sometime next year. Sorry. Better to dissapoint now than later.

Since the time sensitive items are sent to the presses, so to speak, I am working on minor stuff like documentation, sourcing R123s, packaging, etc. 

I would like to offer R123s on our site. I don't think we can sell them for less than other sites, but we can make it convienent to order everything at once (which would save on shipping). What cells do you like? Ideally, these would be unprotected, ~3.6v Nom, lithium ion rechargeables. How about the powerizer brand?

peter


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## Bullzeyebill (Nov 6, 2007)

Yes, the Powerizer brand! 3.6-4.2 volts. Best capacity and hi drain batteries. Silver Fox has evaluated them in the past. Would like to see a newer test of them with brand new batteries. I have been using them in my Chameleons and they handle Level 5, 1.2 amps to led, well. You will get best runtime at max mA's to led with them.

Bill


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## Codeman (Nov 6, 2007)

Powerizer works for me as well. I wouldn't put too much weight on SilverFox's tests. Those were my used cells. About half died, but most of them had been cooked in my [email protected] for long runtimes. I suspect that new cells wouldn't have the problems mine did, especially since the half that did survive Tom's testing are still going strong for me. I don't cook them anymore, though!


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## Gransee (Nov 6, 2007)

How long where you using them at the level5 setting? I am trying to get an idea of their durability. 

Normally, the higher settings only are needed for less than a minute. You can use them longer, but its not very efficient on the entire system. 

peter


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## jcompton (Nov 6, 2007)

How about AW's protected RCR123s? They are all I use and swear by! Keeping in line with the "One-Stop-Shop" theme, stocking a charger like the UltraFire WF-139 or WF-138 might not be a bad idea either for those who are not already set up for rechargeables.

John


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## Codeman (Nov 6, 2007)

Gransee said:


> How long where you using them at the level5 setting? I am trying to get an idea of their durability.
> 
> Normally, the higher settings only are needed for less than a minute. You can use them longer, but its not very efficient on the entire system.
> 
> peter



Greater than 10 minutes in most cases, some until the light shutdown. This was less of a practical test on my part and more of a "where's the edge" testing. I ended up frying the light's electronics. Inefficient? Quite. I kept the Chameleon on a frozen cold pack but the cells still pushed 145°F. When one cell gave out, I popped another in, without really allowing the light to cool, and started it up again. In short, I went way past the point where sanity decided to get off the bus and watch. The cells had been lightly used prior to this. After my abuse, I sent them to SilverFox for more abuse.

The Powerizers really do hold up well. SilverFox's testing went up to 5A, which may be part of why half the cells died. :sick2: Silverfox really hammered these cells. The cells had no problem handling 1.5A for 22 minutes or 1A for 30+ minutes. Very little capacity was lost until he got to the 2.5A test. The fact that half the cells handled an 8C drain is impressive.

I'm still using the cells that survived Silverfox's trial by fire!

When I used protected cells, AW's are my choice, but the older blue ones simply don't handle greater than 1A loads without seeing diminished capacity. I'm by no means knocking AW's cells - I've got quite a few and use them a lot. And I don't have any of his newer cells, which may perform better at high currents. From my experience, though, and SilverFox's testing, the Powerizer's lack of protection allows the electronics to flow with FAR less restriction than any protected cell I've used, including AW's older blue cells.

The main concern that I'd have in regards to the Powerizer cells, if I was in your shoes, is how to make sure that the ARC-LS can protected itself from high current damage if the light is left on either intentionally or accidentally. The Powerizer cells will happily dump every electron out and not care what damage is done.

For users who exercise common sense, they are great cells. For the lowest common denominator, so to speak, they may not be the best choice, depending on how the new Arc-LS handles things. I'm sure you already know this, but I thought it worth mentioning for the benefit of those who haven't used unprotected R123's under high (>1A) current conditions.


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## Thujone (Nov 6, 2007)

Is there any place other than this to order this cell from from (assuming this is the battery being discussed)? The shipping is killer for a small order...


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## Gransee (Nov 6, 2007)

Codeman said:


> The main concern that I'd have in regards to the Powerizer cells, if I was in your shoes, is how to make sure that the ARC-LS can protected itself from high current damage if the light is left on either intentionally or accidentally. The Powerizer cells will happily dump every electron out and not care what damage is done.
> 
> For users who exercise common sense, they are great cells. For the lowest common denominator, so to speak, they may not be the best choice, depending on how the new Arc-LS handles things. I'm sure you already know this, but I thought it worth mentioning for the benefit of those who haven't used unprotected R123's under high (>1A) current conditions.



The LS has voltage and temperature protection designed to protect the light in the event it is left on accidently.

With the R123 kit, people do need to understand how to best use the extra power and what special precautions they should take.

peter


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## Codeman (Nov 6, 2007)

Gransee said:


> The LS has voltage and temperature protection designed to protect the light in the event it is left on accidently.
> 
> With the R123 kit, people do need to understand how to best use the extra power and what special precautions they should take.
> 
> peter



:thumbsup:



Thujone said:


> Is there any place other than this to order this cell from from (assuming this is the battery being discussed)? The shipping is killer for a small order...



That's the cell and that's where I bought mine. If Gransee decides to sell them, though, shipping won't be an issue.

ZBattery carries them as well. Shipping within the US is a bit cheaper.

BTW - if you buy them, get them WITHOUT the tabs. Mine included tabs, which I then had to remove. They're spot-welded on, so it's not hard to remove them, but it's a needless hassle. The tabs are intended for soldering when building battery packs. In my ignorance, I thought they were referring to the positive post vs a flat top cell.


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## Bullzeyebill (Nov 6, 2007)

Batteryspace.com is in the USA, also. Address is:

BatterySpace.com/ AA Portable Power Corp. 
2700 Rydin Road, Unit C
Richmond, CA 94804

Items I have received from them were addressed from Richmond CA. I buy 10 powerizers at a time so shippping is not too bad, still high though.

Bill


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## cerbie (Nov 7, 2007)

*drool*

It looks more and more like holding out for the new LS will be worthwhile wait; rather than having shiny new brighter gadgets that I may not love using after the initial cool factor wears off (can the cool factor of natural HA wear off? ).

Cool gadgets eat funds, but good tools pay for themselves in time (also reduced effort and frustration); even if nobody else gets why I'd carry a tool to save myself 10 seconds worth of looking for something, or to go out for a walk at 2AM. :shrug: I guess most people are just weird. 

I still think I'll pass on the suggestion of unprotected cells, though, with most nasty occurrences being during the charge cycle. AW's protected cells, and LiFePO cells, still look awfully good to me, even at much reduced capacities. I don't want to have to make sure I dot each i and j, and cross each t just to keep batteries safe. 

Even with the risk of a <Lilu>big bada-boom</Lilu> being low, anything that can make it lower is good. Add to that that the habit of using rechargeables reduces the need for high capacities. Just have a spare primary nearby, and I'm good to go when I really need continuous runtime.


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## Tempest UK (Nov 7, 2007)

A release date sometime next year is fine by me. I might actually have the money for it by then 

Regards,
Tempest


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## StandardBattery (Nov 7, 2007)

I'm a little worried about settling on unprotected cells. Even if the flashlight does not abuse the cells, and can protect itself in some cases there are still issues. 

A hard failure of the light could cause a current surge and wham (unless (LiFeP04 cemistry or similar is used). Users could abuse the the cells intentially or unintentionally in other devices or the charger. Then place the cells in the light. Chargers have been know to fail, and can cause issue with the batteries when next used. The user then has to deal with the extra danger during charging the unprotected cell, might be too much to ask.

All this talk of unprotected RCR123 cells is getting too scary. 

To cool things down, we are only talking about doing this in the standard single cell body right?

I think saving on the liability insurance, and being very conservative on the offcial rechargable solution is a good idea. If customers who understand Lithium rechargeables want to get adventurous then that's their responsibility. 

Offering a single AW 18650 Protected cell solution for a rechargeable solution makes more sense. Offering a lower capacity, shorter runtime LiFeP04 solution for the smaller size tube, is another conservative approach.


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## Gransee (Nov 8, 2007)

One of the CPF'ers asked me about battery safety at the most recent GT. He said he would rather use NiMH because he had heard more problems with LiIon. If I recall, he had used both chemistries and personally did not recall any actual problems with either. So the impression he had was based on what he had read elsewhere.

I reminded him that as a flashlight manufacturer, we happen to be in a good position to see actual usage experience for thousands of users. Usually when a battery fails, we hear about it, even if it doesn't damage the light. 

The results I have seen? Adjusted per usage, alkalines cause the most damage while NiMH and Nicad are second. I have not seen any damage caused by lithium primary or secondaries. 

If you do a google search, you will find plenty of warnings, tests, etc. But the actual incidents reported where people or property where damaged are mostly caused by alkalines, NiMH and a spate of Nicad failures. 

To be sure, there has been some actual Lithium non-rechargeable failures. From every case I have seen, the cell was being used as part of a multiple-cell pack. All batteries are sensitive to being mismatched when included in a pack. Btw, This is one of the reasons I emphasize single cell flashlights. 

I go through a lot of batteries in testing runtimes, etc. I have had alkalines pop, leak, fiz, etc. I have NiMHs loudly pop (sounded like a firecracker) at 2 seperate times while charging, leak quite a bit of fluid, etc. I have never had a problem with any lithium battery. period. Not saying it can't happen. Just telling you my experience. 

The most common rechargeable used in a portable device now is the lithium ion battery found in cell phones and laptops. 

Each month, we receive about 10 flashlights that have been damaged by leaking alkalines. I like it when people use lithiums, it saves us money. I wish there was a ~1.5v rechargeable lithium aaa and aa cell available. 

During testing, I have had the fets in the early LS prototypes fail and the battery was basically shorted with about 4-5amps going through the system with unprotected cells (mp-123). The pcb became so hot that the solder became wet and I was able to pull the chip off the board with tweezers. The unprotected lithium cells showed no visible signs of damage. This happened about 6 times before I figured out what was causing the shorts. 

So... I know what has been written here on the cpf about lithiums. My actual experience is different. Of course, you should be careful with any battery. there is a lot of energy contained within them. But don't think that just because you use alkaline or NiMH you are safe and you can disconnect the brain. 

There are other advantages to lithium such as weight, self discharge rate, temperature range, peak energy, cost per wh. And you can use protected cells if you want. bsr123s, for example kick off at about 2amps, which is below the max input current of the LS driver, but high enough to use most of the power envelope.

Remember, all cells are potentially dangerous. Do be careful with any battery, expecially when used in packs together. Use approved chargers. Put the charger in a safe place. Don't think that because one type of cell has less incidents than another that it would be ok to skip safety procedures. 

Although I recommend unprotected lithium cells in the new Arc-LS, I do not recommend them for any other flashlight, especially when used in multiple-cell configurations. Repeated tests have shown that when used in multiple cell configurations (multi-cell flashlights for example), the risk of failure for any battery chemistry increases dramatically. This has been born out in laptops, RC hobbies, flashlights, etc.

peter


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## Blue72 (Nov 8, 2007)

Peter,

That is great info. I will be switching to lithiums. However, how come you still endorse alkalines on your website.


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## Gransee (Nov 8, 2007)

because for the AAA size, they are less expensive for the customer. 

peter


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## Lebkuecher (Nov 8, 2007)

I have never had a problem personally using unprotected cells in combination but I do recall seeing a picture I believe on the CPF of a light that exploded when combining cells. Not a good thing. It is good in your post Peter that you put emphases on safety. I do not think all manufactures do this enough.


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## StandardBattery (Nov 8, 2007)

Peter, thanks for posting your experience. This kind of information is very useful and is detailed enough to use in making decisions.

You make some good points. I have a couple comments.

_



The results I have seen? Adjusted per usage, alkalines cause the most damage while NiMH and Nicad are second. I have not seen any damage caused by lithium primary or secondaries. 

Click to expand...

_I wonder if the sample size for the Lithium is adequate? Since the usage of the other cells has to be a couple order of magnitude greater (probably more ore like 10 orders).

_



But the actual incidents reported where people or property where damaged are mostly caused by alkalines, NiMH and a spate of Nicad failures. 

Click to expand...

_Is this adjusted for usage? I think the problem here is the seriousness of the Lithium incidents, and that they can affect much more than property. I still hate it when alkalines leak, but it's minor compared to flaming. It is probably appropriate to look at these stats for people, separate from property, and dollar values involved.

I will agree though some of this has to do with the high capacity of the new batteries not just the chemistry. A NiMh has a lot of energy and that alone can be dangerous. 

The reason they are starting to use new chemistry in the Lithium cells is to reduce the seriousness of a complete cell failure. The new chemistries are proving much safer, and we should see Lithium-based cells is high powered applications like Hybrid cars soon.

_



The most common rechargeable used in a portable device now is the lithium ion battery found in cell phones and laptops. 

Click to expand...

_
This is very true, and a good point. I'm not trying to be alarmist, just cautious. Most of these devices do have dedicated chargers, that may help eliminate problems. They also have fairly sophisticated monitoring electronics for the packs. Note that there is still no real standard consumer oriented standard lithium rechargeable cell. I believe a lot of that has to do with safety. I hope the protected 18650 becomes the first standard Lithium cell, next to the NiMh at the grocery store. I have a feeling though there might be a LiFeP04, or similair chemistry cell, that will make it passed all the obsticals first.

You are also correct to pointout many of the really serious failures were in multicell packs.

Of course Lithium/Lithium-Ion cells have many advantages, cells phones were a pain before. I'm all for the technology, Lithium/Lithium-Ion is major advance. I can't stand NiMh in many applications, I still have to use more Alkalines than I want too.

Thanks again for your experience, still scared but at least I'm comfortable that you're taking precautions and I know the technology is evolving.

Like everyone else here, I'm looking forward to the release of your new light.


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## Dances with Flashlight (Nov 9, 2007)

Just a brief thank you to everyone who has contributed to this battery discussion. There was a time when I, like most everyone else, shelled out $7.99 or whatever for some sort of flashlight that might happen to work at least part of the time when needed. But we really didn't know too much about the reasons for performance and/or lack of it. The bulb was burned out or the battery was dead. Beyond that, who knew? Today we expect to pay for some pretty incredible leaps in technology and performance. But I never really expected to be able to get an education as well.


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## Ty_Bower (Nov 9, 2007)

Gransee said:


> The results I have seen? Adjusted per usage, alkalines cause the most damage while NiMH and Nicad are second. I have not seen any damage caused by lithium primary or secondaries.


I'll apologize up front for jumping into the middle of a thread without reading all the posts. Hopefully, I didn't skip anything critical.

I'd like to add my experience. I tend to favor single cell lights, whether primary or rechargeable, for the reasons explained above. I have had one experience, however, where a single celled 18650 li-ion powered light suffered minor damage from a leaking cell.

The light was left on, probably for days or even weeks before I noticed what had happened. There was no , but there was minor corrosion inside the body from where the 18650's guts had leaked out. Obviously, I made no attempted to recharge the cell. I'd wager if I had been foolish enough to try, it would probably just catch fire and explode.

The insides cleaned up well enough with an old rag and some metal polish. No major harm was done. The 18650 cell was not of the protected variety. I was just surprised to see anything happen at all. I always figured the main failure mode was due to reverse charging when used in multi-cell applications.

Anyway, just my two cents. I still prefer single cell lights, and I'll continue to use li-ion cells.


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## MikeG1P315 (Nov 10, 2007)

Hi all (Especially Peter, of course). I'm more of a reader / bystander around these parts than a poster, but after almost 10 pages of information and commentary on Peter's new light, I was compelled to post. Most notably as a response to the dissertations and discussions on batteries:

Just one more "me too!" to add in my appreciation for the time, effort, workmanship, thoughtfulness and dediciation to quality that Peter has put in to this light. Admittedly, I've never owned an ARC product (unless you count an HDS EDC as a decendent). Not big on AAA keyring lights, but have never read a bad thing about the ARC AAA. Having lost my HDS EDC just prior to the release of the Novatac line, I decided to evaluate my options before spending hard earned money on a new light. I'm a flashaholic in theory but not in my wallet. 

After reading extensively about the new Novatac versions of the EDC, the new design coming from HDS and the forthcoming work from ARC, I have definitely decided that my next pocket single cell light is going to be the ARC. And what one me over the most? The frankness, informativeness and honesty of Peter's answers and the no-frills operation of the light. I've been torn for a long time between the convenience of a momentary push button but the natural position of the fingers to control a twisting bezel. Now I can have both! 

Anyway, that's enough from me. Thanks to Peter and everyone else: I've learned more about flashlights, LEDs and batteries than I thought possible.

--Michael


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## Frenchyled (Nov 10, 2007)

HEllo Peter, MErri and other Arcflashlight fanatics....

I am not dead..but just really busy by my studies..

I post here, because as one of the first Arcflashlight old customer I am very interested to get as soon as possible this new Arc-LS and I want to ask you Peter, to count with me for at least buying one, unless you could take preorder 

Congratulations and best wishes for this new baby.

Pascal


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## Stillphoto (Nov 10, 2007)

Like MikeG said, I love the frankness and the overall keeping us in the loop. Take the new HDS for example. Boom- shows up, leaves lots of questions that will at some point be answered. I like that, with the Arc, everyone has read up on how everything will be, and we know what materials / leds will be used. Best to answer all the questions before they're asked! Thanks!

Also gotta say that the pd has converted me into a twisty bezel guy (yesterday tried to turn on my aleph mule by twisting the bezel..whoops!)

I like that it's taking longer, I may actually have the money for it when it comes out!


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## MY (Nov 13, 2007)

Hi Peter.

I am also not dead but am busy keeping my students working overtime on their projects (I think that Frenchyled can relate!). As another one of the very first ARC devotees, I am anxious to put the new light to work. I have used ARC lights all over the world in demanding conditions and am looking forward in continuing this tradition.

Best of luck Peter on the new LS.

Regards.


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## Thujone (Nov 20, 2007)

Any updates? Its been a while.. Hope everything is going alright.


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## Gransee (Nov 20, 2007)

Not much happening between now and the end of the year. Since the design has been sent to production, it is in the hands of the contractors. All I can do is pester them. Although they have provided lead times, most machine shops for example, don't deliver on time, especially this time of year. The shop I am using right now is the same one Don uses. I have left 5-6 messages over the past 2 weeks asking for a status. Not a single reply. Sorry to say, this is typical for machining in the USA. I am looking forward to us taking over the machining in house like we do the AAA, but that will take awhile. Machining skills are so hard to find in the USA that even with our own machines, a slow contractor can deliver more quickly than we can because it is easier to find a contract shop than a contract machinist. 

Yeah, I guess I am upset about it. Its been going on a for a long time though. 


Btw, I looked at the recently announced HDS twisty. Appears to be a ~550mA P4 in the 70 lumen unit and a similiarly driven Cree in the 100lm model. Based on my own tests of the cree in a similiar optics size as the P4, the cree delivers more lumens at the same power but doesn't throw as far. 70/100lm is already being done with the stock PD.

peter


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## Codeman (Nov 20, 2007)

Some things are just out of our control.

The update, however, is much appreciated!


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## Blue72 (Nov 20, 2007)

Gransee said:


> Not much happening between now and the end of the year. Since the design has been sent to production, it is in the hands of the contractors. All I can do is pester them. Although they have provided lead times, most machine shops for example, don't deliver on time, especially this time of year. The shop I am using right now is the same one Don uses. I have left 5-6 messages over the past 2 weeks asking for a status. Not a single reply. Sorry to say, this is typical for machining in the USA. I am looking forward to us taking over the machining in house like we do the AAA, but that will take awhile. Machining skills are so hard to find in the USA that even with our own machines, a slow contractor can deliver more quickly than we can because it is easier to find a contract shop than a contract machinist.
> 
> Yeah, I guess I am upset about it. Its been going on a for a long time though.
> 
> peter


 
Peter 

I share your fustration. I too have to be held mercy by machine shops when dealing with parts for my race engines. I missed out on a whole racing season waiting for parts in the past. Luckily I have found one with superior workmanship and very quick turn around. However, it took much money, time, and trails before I found a good one.


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## Gransee (Nov 20, 2007)

dd61999, when you get the time, please email me their contact info. It won't help with this job but it might with the next.

It is a constant search for good shops. Even the ones I find don't last. I have investigated over 50 shops in the past 6 years. 

Our best long-term success has always been in house machining. The problem there has been finding contract machinists to set up our machines and service them. Once they are setup, we can run them 7 days a week and keep up with our needs. I have gone through numerous contract machinists just this year. You name it, they have it. Personal problems, second jobs, not showing up, etc. 

peter


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## :)> (Nov 20, 2007)

Gransee said:


> Btw, I looked at the recently announced HDS twisty. Appears to be a ~550mA P4 in the 70 lumen unit and a similiarly driven Cree in the 100lm model. Based on my own tests of the cree in a similiar optics size as the P4, the cree delivers more lumens at the same power but doesn't throw as far. 70/100lm is already being done with the stock PD.



Very interesting about the HDS emitter choices. I am not an expert but I would have thought that of the 2 emitters, that the Seoul was the more fragile of the 2... tells you what I know

Here is something that I know. You will both be getting my money... from the looks of it, Henry first and then you second because of the release dates. 

Your light has me totally jazzed especially since you started talking about virtual levels and stuff like that... SWEET!


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## Gransee (Nov 21, 2007)

The dome on the cree is more sensitive to mechanical force than the dome on the seoul. I have heard of them popping off relatively easy in some cases. Reps have warned against using them in a flashlight. I did build an LS with a cree installed and it has been fine for me. Since the LED can be swapped out, you could put a cree in your LS if you wanted of course. The beam is going to be wider and the throw not as far. I prefer my EDC to have a different beam distribution than that. My guess is that the first of the LS will either have P4s or K2 TF. I haven't ordered my LEDs yet. I am waiting until the last minute so as to get the best possible product. 

peter


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## regulator (Nov 21, 2007)

Thanks for the update Peter - I does help with the wait. 

I know what you mean about the frustration of not even getting a response to you calls. Afterall, these are people essentially working for you. In business, I always at least give a quick call back to acknowledge the call. Everyone is busy but a quick return call is only curtious and professional.


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## flashy bazook (Nov 22, 2007)

just spent quite a bit of time reading up on this thread. Glad I did! Learned a lot.

The Arc-LS is definitely an interesting product, more along the lines of what I thought the new HDS was going to be like, with some user programming capability. Definitely, for a deluxe model these days this is one big way to differentiate against competitors. Especially if the absolutely most powerful LEDs are not going to be used (thinking Q5 and maybe R100), yet are offered even by cheap chinese lights already.

Still, I was surprised in a couple of directions. One, the way to program sounds complicated in practice. The new NiteCore infinity defender, and even the LiteFlux sound less intimidating. Maybe a dial would have been another way to deal with all the complexity more simply? (so the dial does not change the programming by default, but the user can do something which enables the dial which can be used to make the various selections, and after these are inputed the dial can be deactivated again so it won't make some unexpected change in programming at the wrong moment!).

The other surprise was how close in looks and function the Arc-LS is to the McGizmo Ti-PD-S.

Putting aside issues of material (that the Arc-LS has only a bezel Ti whereas the McGizmo is all Ti), and cost (assuming the Arc-LS will be more expensive than $150-165 yet less than the $450 of the McGizmo), if one has the Ti-PD-S the main advantage of the Arc-LS is really only the programmability. 

Maybe I had a third surprise, which is that the Arc-LS is larger than the other Arc's I've seen, which were generally directed toward the key-chain formfactor, in AAA or even AAAA's. So a problem is that those quite desirable formfactors are not getting updated LEDs, so one who would like to get the AAA Arc would have to accept much lower lumen outputs (using say the latest Fenix L0D 's as a benchmark).

I guess a final thing that I noticed that was kind of depressing is to hear about all the problems with the local (US-based) machinists and the lack of dedication in the work force there. This I would think feeds into the already difficult economics of US production of flashlights, which in turn means that all the semi-custom flashlight manufacturers here gravitate toward expensive, flashy, biggest-profit-per-unit (ie, EDC) models and ignore many other useful and even necessary types. So non-US manufacturers continue to build their lead in manufacturing techniques, low cost yet improving quality production, and huge diversity in models and fast speed of bringing new models on line. Don't know what can be done about all this.


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## Stillphoto (Nov 22, 2007)

Well if I lived in the area I'd try to take a ton of machining classes and bone up on skill and help you out...considering my gigs are few and far between at the moment lol. Let me know if an Arc beach house / production facility ever becomes reality  .

Having just sold my aluminum pd, the arc will be my new edc when it's ready. I have plenty of other lights to fill the needs till then, but it sure will be nice to have another pd styled light riding in my pocket every day.

Peter - I hope you and the wifey have a great Thanksgiving! Thanks for the updates!


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## oxford_guy (Nov 23, 2007)

I've been trying to follow the discussion here about what cells will work with the new Arc LS and am still unclear whether the Arc LS will actually work with *protected* R123A cells (I'm particularly thinking here of AWs latest protected R123a cells), is anyone able to give me a definitive answer? Am just about to order some cells, so would really like to know... Thanks!


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## Gransee (Nov 23, 2007)

oxford, yes. The new Arc-LS does work with protected cells. The input range is 1.8-5.5v. The advantage to unprotected cells is they sometimes have a higher mah rating and you can draw more peak current out of them (no circuit breaker). \

peter


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## oxford_guy (Nov 23, 2007)

Gransee said:


> oxford, yes. The new Arc-LS does work with protected cells. The input range is 1.8-5.5v. The advantage to unprotected cells is they sometimes have a higher mah rating and you can draw more peak current out of them (no circuit breaker). \
> 
> peter



Thanks

P.


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## CM (Nov 23, 2007)

Gransee said:


> The dome on the cree is more sensitive to mechanical force than the dome on the seoul. I have heard of them popping off relatively easy in some cases...



And I thought I was being careless with them after seeing four or five Cree glass domes come off on me, sometimes seemingly for no reason. While the gummy bear Seoul has it's own issues (they're dust magnets), I've never had one come off on me. I prefer working with them over the Cree's.


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## AWGD8 (Dec 1, 2007)

1) Pls. put an LED with a nice tint like the REBEL Premium 100. When I 

compared the REBEL 100 against the Cree Q5, Cree`s tint looks very blue -

Not good for the outdoor folks. 

2) Make it at least 195+ Lumens Max with very low lumen setting also.

3) Make it as tough as the NOVATAC , but in the form of Fenix P1D CE size if possible. (Better EDC) 

4) Removable crenelated bezel and plain option.

5) Make it as a tool and not as collectors item. So forget a shiny coating.

6) Has removable clip if possible.

7) Lastly, hope it`s affordable.


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## N162E (Dec 2, 2007)

Gransee said:


> most machine shops for example, don't deliver on time, especially this time of year. The shop I am using right now is the same one Don uses. I have left 5-6 messages over the past 2 weeks asking for a status. Not a single reply. Sorry to say, this is typical for machining in the USA.
> peter


Thats a pretty broad statement to make Peter. I sure would like to know what facts you are basing this info on. If you are so unhappy with machining in the US maybe you should outsource to China. Or maybe you should contact some of the many fine machine shops in the Detroit area that are on their knees looking for business.


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## Lebkuecher (Dec 3, 2007)

I seem to remember Peter posting several times in the past having timing issues with machine shops so I’m not shocked at this statement. I really appreciate the updates even if the news is not what I want to hear. 

Thanks for keeping us in the loop Peter!!


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## Gransee (Dec 3, 2007)

After about 3 weeks I did get a brief contact with the shop last monday. They said that some of the parts might be done last friday. That came and went with no parts or any other contact from them. I called throughout the week of course.

I agree that I did make a broad statement about machine shops in the USA, I was upset. So please understand it was a blanket statement. However, I did say that I have worked with quite a few shop in the past 6-7 years so I do have some experience. I also talk to business owners, etc. To be fair, I am sure there are some wonderful shops out there. They just are not easy to find. 

And when I have trouble with this shop or that shop, I don't think it is because I have found some people deficient in skills, etc. I think the industry has a problem and normal people are being pulled down by that industry-wide problem. Practically every shop owner or machinist I have met is a decent person outside of the shop. But you add the industry problems and you get a nice person who doesn't call, misses deadlines, etc. That is just how it is. We had a contractor who helped set up our machines. Nice guy! Funny to talk to (had all kinds of stories), positive personality. Very articulate and educated. But he had too many demands on his time. I offered to significantly increase his wage. Couldn't keep him (he wants a full time job). He does answer his phone though. I just can't get him to come out to the shop on a regular and dependable basis. We have a gentleman now that does come on a more regular basis, but his time is under tremendous demands so we only get him for a little bit each week. 

I would tend to think that free market capitalism would supply the demand. That is not happening for some reason. Bit of a mystery to me. You would think, if there was plenty of work, the wages would go up, more people would enter the industry, etc. I suspect wages are still not high enough and this probably due to globalization. And it has a blanket effect. So even if one person offers to pay higher wages, because the industry as a whole doesn't pay higher wages, there is a shortage of qualified people in the first place. I have toured shops with plenty of work but expensive machines dormant because they don't have anyone to run them. Ads in the paper for months and they can't find anyone qualified. I suspect that globalization and it effect on wages and therefore skills, trickles down to schedules and quality. 

I should just learn machining and coding myself. Problem is, I don't really have much of a passion for it. 

Detroit, which you refer to, has problems of their own unfortunately. They built up years ago to support the auto industry. I think that is now part of what they call the, "rust belt". Maybe this is where I should be contracting? Do you have a recommendation?

I heard several shop owners lament that young people are no longer interested in careers in machining. They want to be a basketball star or a stock broker. They all end up as lawyers for some reason. 

I would rather have the maching done in the USA if possible. Even if it costs me more. I do buy small stuff from overseas, mostly the electronic stuff since there is no domestic alternates. 

I prefer to work with shops in AZ, but I have worked with shops out of the state. I rely on referrals mostly in that case. So you have a name of a shop you know is good, let me know. That is how I find out about them. 

Like I said before, our best experience with machining is when we do it ourselves. Costs and lead times are lower, quality is up. But that takes even longer to setup than using an outside shop. And I am trying to find ways to trim a week or 2 off our production. 

So anyways. That whole tangent was just me complaining. Sorry about that. I am ready to get back on topic. 

The past week or so I have been managing contractors, ordering short lead time parts, etc. Mostly a hurry and wait type deal. 

peter


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## McGizmo (Dec 3, 2007)

A post script to the machine shop saga.

I alerted Peter in advance that this particular shop can and does produce first quality components but that delivery dates as well as communication are not dependable. This particular shop has been on the move and in expansion mode since I have been dealing with them and this in addition to Murphy has also played a large part in less than stable relationships. The owner of the shop is on a mini business/ vacation trip at the moment on Maui and we met twice yesterday and he is coming over today and possibly tomorrow as well. He is a nice and sharp guy and really knows his machine tools and techniques.

A chain is only as strong as its weakest link and in general terms we have discussed the lack of people available, as employees, who are competent in many aspects of a machine shop. To be cost effective and competitive in a global market, this guy is pursuing state of the art equipment and expanding in a manner that will lean heavily on automation and less on human labor. He still needs help though and even getting his shop set up and running as he hopes requires installers and vendors who do what they say they can and in a timely fashion. I won't get into the details as I don't know all of them nor care but for instance, he has a new lathe that is ideally suited to make the parts I order from him. Because of new equipment arrivals, installation and disruption, this lathe has been moved a number of times in his shop but has yet to be set up and operational. It is coming up on its first birthday in his shop and has yet to produce. 

I won't make excuses for him and I know that I have lost weeks (if not months) of productivity myself, in idle wait on parts that should have been delivered. There has been lost opportunity, productivity and revenue that simply can't be made up. It sucks but it is also the reality. I keep waiting and hoping for things to become more stable and get better. I have faith that they will. :shrug:

It frustrates me at times when an arm chair expert here on CPF will trivialize the process of making a flashlight. Yes it can be easy and straight forward but not without a solid foundation and system in place. Those who know they can do better always have the opportunity to do so.


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## NascarRebel (Dec 6, 2007)

:thumbsup:


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## awberke (Dec 8, 2007)

it has officially been like 15 months since the original thread was posted about this light. that's incredible. I could have whittled a light out of pure titanium in this time.


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## this_is_nascar (Dec 8, 2007)

awberke said:


> it has officially been like 15 months since the original thread was posted about this light. that's incredible. I could have whittled a light out of pure titanium in this time.



It's obvious you're a newbie. Welcome to CPF. Stick around for awhile and you'll notice this is quite common practice for many of our flashlight makers.


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## marcdilnutt (Dec 8, 2007)

awberke said:


> it has officially been like 15 months since the original thread was posted about this light. that's incredible. I could have whittled a light out of pure titanium in this time.



I wont be too hard on you because you have only been here a few weeks, but please think twice before you start having a dig at one of the most respected members here. Yes, this light has been a long time coming but do you not think that 15 months R & D is acceptable to get a premium product at the end of it? I have been on a list for over a year for a light that has already been developed and delivered to some people. If you dont like long, anxious waits this isnt the place for you.


----------



## jcompton (Dec 8, 2007)

awberke said:


> it has officially been like 15 months since the original thread was posted about this light. that's incredible. I could have whittled a light out of pure titanium in this time.


 

Start whittling... Let's see what you come up with...:welcome:


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## :)> (Dec 8, 2007)

I am getting tired of waiting too...

...now, I am only buying one of each kind the second that I find them available for purchase:nana:

Come on Gransee; send your babies home to Papa Goatee; I can't wait!


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## Optik49 (Dec 9, 2007)

Any new photos to hold us over?  :santa:


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## Gransee (Dec 9, 2007)

Still no word from the machine shop. I continue to call of course. The CM is beginning to put the electronics on the PCB panels. The programmer delivered the test code for the calibration sequence. I ordered a small number of LEDs to begin sorting. 

I received 10 more PCBs made by hand to build prototypes and continue the electronics/firmware development and testing. This brings the total number of boards made to about 50 units. Of course, most of those are older revs and some are broken from testing. Just part of the the normal process. 

I will spell it out in case there is any doubt: This product is not shipping this year. Even when I have machined parts, populated pcbs and completed firmware, there is a lot to do to finish the product. 

peter


----------



## MartinSE (Dec 9, 2007)

I recently got into all of this. I used to have a hds u60 but got robbed. I've been looking for a replacement. I tried the fenix p2d to see if a cheap light would do but I think it sucks. I waited for the new HDS to come but I don't think it's what I want. This light however looks like it will be awesome. 

I have a question about the virtual level. I'm not sure I've understood properly how it works. Do you activate it by pressing the piston fully and releasing it quickly? Does that mean it is not momentary or do you have to twist the light ON before using it? Does this mean there are in practice 3 brightness settings? Are they all adjustable? 

I also read about software being used with the light in post #1. Is this used to adjust the brightness settings or can that be done without the use of software? How is the light connected to a computer?

Cheers!


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## Peter Atwood (Dec 9, 2007)

I'm waiting patiently.  This is gonna be great...don't let those machining delays get you down, they are totally par for the course.


----------



## HiltiHome (Dec 10, 2007)

I'm new in this thread, but definitively won't buy this light, if USD 42 is wasted for the titan bezel.

If there is a need for a titan bezel, the manufacturer should look for another machining shop making the bezel for USD5 or so....and also does it's job in time.....


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## MartinSE (Dec 10, 2007)

I was wondering about that as well. Why not use stainless steel which is cheap and strong? Perhaps a few grams extra of course.

Hiltihome: Do you think any shop could make and sell them for that price?


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## HiltiHome (Dec 10, 2007)

I'm not in machining busyness, but do believe, that USD42.- is way too much for a bezel made in quantities...


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## Gransee (Dec 11, 2007)

Welcome HiltiHome. No offense but I believe the first part of your statement qualifies the second part:

_"I'm not in machining busyness, but do believe, that USD42.- is way too much for a bezel made in quantities..."_

The discussion about the bezel, etc took place awhile back. I know, there is a lot written here. 

--
MartinSE, welcome. You asked:

_"I have a question about the virtual level. I'm not sure I've understood properly how it works. Do you activate it by pressing the piston fully and releasing it quickly? Does that mean it is not momentary or do you have to twist the light ON before using it? Does this mean there are in practice 3 brightness settings? Are they all adjustable? 

I also read about software being used with the light in post #1. Is this used to adjust the brightness settings or can that be done without the use of software? How is the light connected to a computer?"_


The 3rd stage, which is a virtual stage, is activated by the speed of the button press. Once the button is fully pressed, you can have it be a momentary or constant use, depending on how long you hold the button for. You can also access this stage by twisting the pack quickly, which will keep the light on at that level until you loosen the pack. 

Yes, there are 3 stages which can be assigned any level from a pool of 8 levels. I recommend reading about the settings menu.

Software? I think you are referring to the software on the PC. I won't be offering this right away, but instead after the light has been shipping for at least a couple of months. This is because the software is not done and the getting the light ready takes priority. The software does allow the levels in the 8-level pool to be adjusted. The software uses a USB interface to link with the flashlight. The flashlight does not have a USB interface (no room) but has a I2C type interface which connects to a interface card we provide which converts to the USB protocol. This card also has some other functions that are used for testing the flashlight boards in our production. That function is completed and is already being used. It is the user software that will be delayed. 

peter


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## Cyclops942 (Dec 12, 2007)

I've seen the interface card and software being used, and it's PDC... pretty darn cool!

Okay, I'm a computer geek... so what?


----------



## MartinSE (Dec 12, 2007)

I read up on the the UI through older posts. I like the way it works. I've read up on the stainless/titanium issue as well.


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## Gransee (Dec 26, 2007)

The machine shop says they should be shipping the parts soon. 

The current firmware project is the calibration sequence, which is towards the end of the projects planned for the firmware.

Our own in-house maching is almost ready to begin production on the ti bezels. The bezels work but I want them pretty. We also have a bunch coming from the external machine shop just in case. 

peter


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## jcompton (Dec 26, 2007)

Thanks for the update Peter. Looks like the finishline is in sight!!!


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## N162E (Dec 26, 2007)

Any hint of a price for this light yet?


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## fleegs (Dec 26, 2007)

$330 USD. (a guess)



rob


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## hank (Dec 26, 2007)

> a guess
Ooh. You tempt me to say 'how much do you want to bet?' ....
But it would be wrong.


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## yaesumofo (Dec 27, 2007)

IMHO this is no way to treat a paying customer.
The Top of the line shops I use in the Los Angeles area do not operate this way.
There is far too much competition around here to treat customers like crap. This is pretty much true with most of the trades which are related to metal work.
Keep in ,mind that there is a great deal of Government military aerospace type of contract work to be done in this area. In order to do this work these shops MUST bring their AAA Game or they will not get the contracts.
Peter you know what to do when you would like to have a positive experience. Oh and we are only a few hours y by car if you need a first hand look/tour.
Have a great New Year
Yaesumofo



Gransee said:


> After about 3 weeks I did get a brief contact with the shop last Monday. They said that some of the parts might be done last Friday. That came and went with no parts or any other contact from them. I called throughout the week of course.
> 
> I agree that I did make a broad statement about machine shops in the USA, I was upset. So please understand it was a blanket statement. However, I did say that I have worked with quite a few shop in the past 6-7 years so I do have some experience. I also talk to business owners, etc. To be fair, I am sure there are some wonderful shops out there. They just are not easy to find.
> 
> ...


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## Gransee (Dec 27, 2007)

Thank you Yaesumofo. I would like to check out your and some other cpf'ers recommendations on the next new part. Of course, ideally we would get to the point we have our own full time machinist. 

Btw, I got a shipment from the machine shop yesterday. It was a partial shipment of one of the parts in the assembly. Not much I can do until I have at least one complete set. I plan on plating them in sets to improve the anodizing consistency. 

peter


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## Codeman (Dec 27, 2007)

Gransee said:


> ...I plan on plating them in sets to improve the anodizing consistency.



:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:


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## Hallis (Dec 27, 2007)

I'm drooling for pics..

And check yoru email Peter  I sent a little request for a little something im not sure if you have one of or not 

Shane


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## mikes1 (Dec 28, 2007)

fleegs said:


> $330 USD. (a guess)
> 
> 
> 
> rob


 

How about a free light too who guesses right 

Seriously though this light is sounding better all the time I can’t wait to get one (or two or three)

Mike


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## jcompton (Dec 28, 2007)

mikes1 said:


> How about a free light too who guesses right
> 
> Seriously though this light is sounding better all the time I can’t wait to get one (or two or three)
> 
> Mike


 

Can you guess more than once???


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## hank (Dec 28, 2007)

I think, assuming they're serial-numbered, Peter could well put the first group up for auction, figuring these are going to be collectibles. Recover some of those machining costs (grin).


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## MikeG1P315 (Dec 28, 2007)

Hi Peter (and all Arc fans!),

I'm a frequent reader around CPF... but I post very rarely...

I have a question and a comment... forgive me if either have been adressed previously. I've skimmed through this and the previous thread, but admittedly only skimmed. Its a lot of information to consume.

First, my question: When the new LS becomes available will it be a permanent member of the Arc product offerings (ie, ongoing availability until it is at some later date replaced by a newer version) or is this going to be a limited-run special / by demand only type offering? I gather, from my readings, that it is a intended to be a long term member of the Arc family, but I'm just double checking. After all, I need to know how quickly I to have save my pennies and hoarde my quarters. 

As to my comment: Peter, I'm not sure if you've decided on a name for the new LS, but I did skim through the several posts regarding your thoughts and the suggestions of others, and thought I'd toss in a few of my own. Admittedly, I'm a mild flashaholic and relatively new to Arc specifically, but here goes: [none of my suggestions include LS since there we so many that already have]

*Arc U/I* -- dual meanings: user interface and upgradeble/interchangeable, assuming there is still the possibility or intention of other battery configurations.

*Arc V* -- again, a dual meaning, the fifth [produced] version of the cr123 type Arc as well as "variable" for output.

*Arc A* -- adjustable

*Arc AP *-- adjustable/programmable

*Arc V6 *-- referencing the six variable options available in the "pool", also flows nicely from the Arc LS 1-3, the Arc4 and the apparently unproduced Arc5.

*Arc Hyperion *Greek Titan / God of Light

*Arc Helios* Greek Titan / The Sun God

That's it for me. Can't wait for the new LS, whatever name it may take. 

Michael
Newbie Flashaholic


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## MartinSE (Dec 28, 2007)

Question. How long is the piston-travel on this light? (How far it needs to be pushed).


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## this_is_nascar (Dec 28, 2007)

MartinSE said:


> Question. How long is the piston-travel on this light? (How far it needs to be pushed).



I must admit to not reading all 10+ pages of this thread, but can I assume based on this question that the new Arc will be based off the PD (piston-drive)? I really hope that's not the case.


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## fleegs (Dec 28, 2007)

this_is_nascar said:


> I must admit to not reading all 10+ pages of this thread, but can I assume based on this question that the new Arc will be based off the PD (piston-drive)? I really hope that's not the case.



Yep it is. Don helped consult. Looks just like a PD but smaller. There are pics somewhere. Found the link in this thread post 98.


Rob


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## mossyoak (Dec 28, 2007)

this_is_nascar said:


> I must admit to not reading all 10+ pages of this thread, but can I assume based on this question that the new Arc will be based off the PD (piston-drive)? I really hope that's not the case.



what do you have against the PD?


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## Finbar (Dec 28, 2007)

Fin


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## fleegs (Dec 29, 2007)

Does anyone know if the final design will tail stand or not tail stand solidly?


rob


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## MorpheusT1 (Dec 29, 2007)

Both will Tailstand,since the PD is flat.
I recall reading the will be two versions of tubes.
One with protruding Piston for easy activation and one with clip similar to the original PD which will definatively Tailstand.


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## MartinSE (Dec 29, 2007)

this_is_nascar said:


> I must admit to not reading all 10+ pages of this thread, but can I assume based on this question that the new Arc will be based off the PD (piston-drive)? I really hope that's not the case.



I've seen the pictures of it but I've never handled a PD so I don't know what it may feel like operating it. Does the piston need to be pushed far into the body?


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## MorpheusT1 (Dec 29, 2007)

The Piston is very smooth in action and you can adjust the pressure needed by twisting the head for a hair trigger switch or if you like a harder activation just unscrew it a little.

The PD design is Perfect imho.


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## fleegs (Dec 29, 2007)

MorpheusT1 said:


> Both will Tailstand,since the PD is flat.
> I recall reading the will be two versions of tubes.
> One with protruding Piston for easy activation and one with clip similar to the original PD which will definatively Tailstand.



Thanks,
rob


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## Stillphoto (Dec 29, 2007)

That's what I really like about the pd's design - the adjustability of the pressure, and then if you get tired of holding down on the piston just twist the head slightly and it stays on. No clicky to worry about wearing down.


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## hank (Dec 29, 2007)

Ah, 'piston' like the little Streamlight Stylus, a plunger in a screwdown tailpiece? that makes very good sense. 

I refitted a 2xAAAA orange Stylus with a white SMJLED, direct drive, and it's my 'moonlight level' walking floodlight, and I've gotten to appreciate that push-or-turn switch design a lot. 

(And the Arc AAA is always on my belt in case I need to stop traffic while I"m in a crosswalk, where the tiny 'floodlight' isn't very noticeable from a car)


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## mossyoak (Dec 29, 2007)

hank said:


> Ah, 'piston' like the little Streamlight Stylus, a plunger in a screwdown tailpiece? that makes very good sense.
> 
> QUOTE]
> 
> not quite, the piston fully envelops the battery, and bypasses it to touch the electronics board.


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## Stillphoto (Dec 29, 2007)

hank said:


> Ah, 'piston' like the little Streamlight Stylus, a plunger in a screwdown tailpiece? that makes very good sense.
> 
> I refitted a 2xAAAA orange Stylus with a white SMJLED, direct drive, and it's my 'moonlight level' walking floodlight, and I've gotten to appreciate that push-or-turn switch design a lot.
> 
> (And the Arc AAA is always on my belt in case I need to stop traffic while I"m in a crosswalk, where the tiny 'floodlight' isn't very noticeable from a car)


 
Kinda not really, go over to the McGizmo section for the indepth look at the piston drive system.


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## Chronos (Dec 30, 2007)

Tonight I've got 11 pages to read  

I know I'm late to the game here, but this is one of the most exciting lights I've seen in a long time! 

I too will be purchasing one. A good friend here @ CPF just told me about the light, and I'm sold.


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## garence (Dec 30, 2007)

fleegs said:


> $330 USD. (a guess)


Ouch. Way more than the going rate for some of the other custom lights. I guess this is going to be a very exclusive club... too bad that this wasn't aimed at a lower price point for more folks to be able to reach, like making the $42USD titanium bezel optional (deduct $32 in place of a stainless steel one) among other cost savings options. Of course, I'm assuming that fleegs' guess is relatively accurate. I hope I'm wrong. :candle:


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## fleegs (Dec 30, 2007)

Let me explain how I arrived at 330 USD.

Fenix charges 20 dollars for the E0. Arc charges 30-45 for their AAA. (roughly 2X the cost).

Don charges about $230-250 for his aluminum version. I was originally thinking it would be around that for a manufactured version. My original non-published guess was $220.

But I decided on the following.

Novatac charges around $150 and HDS charges $165. Use the Fenix formula (my made up name for double the cost) and you get $330. So I guessed $330.

Ta da!

Regardless of the accuracy of my numbers those are the ones I used.

Have fun debating and guessing.


rob


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## awberke (Dec 31, 2007)

marcdilnutt said:


> I wont be too hard on you because you have only been here a few weeks, but please think twice before you start having a dig at one of the most respected members here. Yes, this light has been a long time coming but do you not think that 15 months R & D is acceptable to get a premium product at the end of it? I have been on a list for over a year for a light that has already been developed and delivered to some people. If you dont like long, anxious waits this isnt the place for you.



Not to be rude but waiting for a response from a machine shop over and over isn't exactly research and development.


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## Cyclops942 (Dec 31, 2007)

awberke said:


> Not to be rude but waiting for a response from a machine shop over and over isn't exactly research and development.



Actually, searching for a machine shop (or any other supplier) that can deliver materials of sufficient quality in sufficient quantity on a predictable, reliable schedule is, indeed, part of the development of the process to manufacture any given widget. Developing the process to produce the widget in a cost-efficient manner is necessary before full-scale production can begin (assuming you actually want to stay in business, that is).

Hence, in this case, "waiting for a response from a machine shop over and over" actually IS part of the development.


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## mikes1 (Jan 4, 2008)

Must be time for a new year update


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## Gransee (Jan 4, 2008)

ok, here's an update:

Got another partial shipment of parts from the machine shop. Still not enough to begin plating.

Started another round of beta testing today with some local CPF'ers. Testing the latest software rev, production circuit boards, etc.

Did some runtime tests with various batteries to see how the units regulate and fallback at various points. 

peter


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## vvk (Jan 4, 2008)

fleegs said:


> Let me explain how I arrived at 330 USD.
> 
> Fenix charges 20 dollars for the E0. Arc charges 30-45 for their AAA. (roughly 2X the cost).
> 
> ...



If the price is considerable more than $230-250 the new Arc-LC will not be able to successfully compete with Novatec IMHO. If I remember correctly the price of the top of the line flashlight circa 2005 - EDC Ultimate 60 XR was $245. 

I wonder how many units HDS managed to sell at this price. My point is if HDS did not try to cell at higher price maybe they did not believe that there was enough demand.


If I have to make a guess I’d say that Arc-LC will be priced around $270-290. I will personally buy if the price is below $220.

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## this_is_nascar (Jan 4, 2008)

vvk said:


> If the price is considerable more than $230-250 the new Arc-LC will not be able to successfully compete with Novatec IMHO. If I remember correctly the price of the top of the line flashlight circa 2005 - EDC Ultimate 60 XR was $245.
> 
> I wonder how many units HDS managed to sell at this price. My point is if HDS did not try to cell at higher price maybe they did not believe that there was enough demand.
> 
> ...



I'll go out on a limb, keeping in mind I've still yet to read everything about this light. If this light is really based on the PD design as I've heard, I'd be somewhat disheartened if the cost tips the $200 mark. I say that because there should be no re-tooling of the castings for the physical light. Again, this assumes a PD casing for the innards. I guess I shold educate myself by reading this entire thread 1st, then offer my opinions.


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## cnw4002 (Jan 4, 2008)

If its over the $160 mark I'm out as are most of the people I know.


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## paulr (Jan 4, 2008)

this_is_nascar said:


> I'll go out on a limb, keeping in mind I've still yet to read everything about this light. If this light is really based on the PD design as I've heard, I'd be somewhat disheartened if the cost tips the $200 mark. I say that because there should be no re-tooling of the castings for the physical light. Again, this assumes a PD casing for the innards. I guess I shold educate myself by reading this entire thread 1st, then offer my opinions.


The electronics of this light are completely different from the McLux PD, I'd expect the machining to be completely different (if sharing some design inspiration), and the tooling is likely to be completely different since this is a production light while the McLux is a semi-custom made in runs of a few dozen units at a time. One of the drawbacks of a production light is the loss of specialization, i.e. tailoring the light to the requirements of just a few dozen users doesn't fit the economic model. The gain is supposed to be economy of scale, i.e. the light should cost a lot less than a comparable light done on a semi-custom basis (think of the Benchmade or Spyderco production implementations of various custom knife designs). Anyway my disheartenment level is in the same ballpark as yours, FWIW.


----------



## MikeG1P315 (Jan 4, 2008)

Pricing...

In this thread: http://www.cpfmarketplace.com/mp/showthread.php?t=126557, post #21 Peter said:

"I kind of hinted at the price range in my post: "expensive".... ...I won't be suprised if it is more expensive than any other LS in total price and less than any other LS in dollars per lumen."

From what research I did, it appears the Arc4 had a max of 42 lumens and cost $180; or $4 per lumen about.

Figuring at least 120 lumens max on the new LS, $2 per lumen would be far cheaper than $4 and only total $240. So, I guess, all this to say my guess would be in the $250 range. Or, should I say, my HOPE.


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## paulr (Jan 4, 2008)

MikeG1P315 said:


> "I kind of hinted at the price range in my post: "expensive".... ...I won't be suprised if it is more expensive than any other LS in total price and less than any other LS in dollars per lumen."
> 
> From what research I did, it appears the Arc4 had a max of 42 lumens and cost $180; or $4 per lumen about. ...


 Does the arc4x count? It was over $300


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## jcompton (Jan 4, 2008)

cnw4002 said:


> If its over the $160 mark I'm out as are most of the people I know.


 
At that price point I'd be in for quite a few of these little guys!!! :naughty:


But in all reality, it's more wishful thinking than anything else...:mecry:


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## mikes1 (Jan 5, 2008)

Thanks for the latest information Peter it is good to here that things are still progressing. I am sure this light will be the benchmark EDC when it becomes available.
 As for price the best is always going to be expensive so my guess is $325



Mike


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## MikeG1P315 (Jan 6, 2008)

paulr said:


> Does the arc4x count? It was over $300


 
Just re-reading what Peter said in that quote: even though the Arc4 series were a descendant of the LS... does Peter consider the Arc4 to BE an LS? Or just an evolution...?


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## Gransee (Jan 6, 2008)

I wasn't trying to hide the real price in a cryptic answer. I don't know what the real price is yet. I will try to make it as low as possible. A lot of this depends on what the final cost to manufacturer it is.

And btw, the LS, Arc4 and new LS all belong to the "1x123 LED kind". This makes the Arc4 part of the evolution of that "kind". I plan on giving the newest 1x123 a unique name as well. 

peter


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## :)> (Jan 6, 2008)

Peter, 

All of the good sucker beta testers live in Florida by the way... oh, geeze, I live in Florida too. You probably should send the light over my way right away so that I can test it for you.


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## KingSmono (Jan 7, 2008)

:)> said:


> Peter,
> 
> All of the good sucker beta testers live in Florida by the way... oh, geeze, I live in Florida too. You probably should send the light over my way right away so that I can test it for you.



x2!! Haha 

JK, on a serious note, can't wait for this one to come out Peter! Thanks for the updates.


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## Gransee (Jan 17, 2008)

update:

Received enough partial shipments from the machine shop to make a set of complete housings. sent to platers. Received the HA plated units back this week and they look nice. In fact, some of the nicest HA I have seen in awhile. Everything threads well and this includes the screw holes. Nice machining. still waiting on the pistons to arrive from nickle plating, should be in a week or two. Ti Bezels are done. PCBs are being populated right now and the programming is approaching the final projects planned. Still a lot to do and I don't know exactly when things will be done of course. 

peter


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## ViReN (Jan 18, 2008)

That's Nice to know  ...

KUTGW Peter :thumbsup:


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## mikes1 (Jan 18, 2008)

Thanks Peter 
A small glimmer of light at the end of the tunnel ?


----------



## jcompton (Jan 18, 2008)

Thanks for the update Peter!
:twothumbs


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## xdanx (Jan 19, 2008)

I have been sort of following the production of the new LS's, but I haven't read the entire thing. I absolutly love your lights and have all of the AAA models, . I plan on buying a LS and sm very exited about your new products.

These things are going sell extremely fast and I would like to know how much you are planning to release in your first batch. That way I can know if I will have a chance to buy one.

*So can you please let us know the planned quantity.*


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## Xygen (Jan 21, 2008)

xdanx said:


> I have been sort of following the production of the new LS's, but I haven't read the entire thing. I absolutly love your lights and have all of the AAA models, . I plan on buying a LS and sm very exited about your new products.
> 
> These things are going sell extremely fast and I would like to know how much you are planning to release in your first batch. That way I can know if I will have a chance to buy one.
> 
> So can you please let us know the planned quantity.



Thats exactly what I would like to know. Plus how the light will be distributed.
Thank you!


----------



## Cuso (Jan 21, 2008)

Yep.. maybe we don't have a set price yet, but quantity and availability will help determine how soon some of us can start preparing and choosing which lights to sacrifice...:thumbsup:


----------



## The Coach (Jan 21, 2008)

I don't know if this has been addressed yet and 12 pages is a lot to read (I didn't read twelve pages my whole senior year in HS), but will any of these be available without the computer interface?


----------



## cerbie (Jan 21, 2008)

The Coach said:


> I don't know if this has been addressed yet and 12 pages is a lot to read (I didn't read twelve pages my whole senior year in HS), but will any of these be available without the computer interface?


Yes, all of them. The PC interface *may* be an *optional* feature to use, and will primarily be of use to modders. All three light levels can be set with nothing but a working battery in a working new LS, and working fingers.

Now, back to product availability questions...


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## Ned-L (Jan 29, 2008)

Any updates


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## dealer (Feb 1, 2008)

*EN or Black AlephMc-Mule complete with NG400 LE - $175 plus shipping & insurance. I would think a production light like an ARC LS should not be to much more that a custom light like the above.
*


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## mraymer (Feb 1, 2008)

dealer said:


> *EN or Black AlephMc-Mule complete with NG400 LE - $175 plus shipping & insurance. I would think a production light like an ARC LS should not be to much more that a custom light like the above.
> *



At first I would agree with you, mainly because I'm hoping to be able to fund the purchase of the new design at an affordable price. But after a little more thought, this is kind of comparing apples to oranges. The Aleph you're referring to doesn't have a reflector, uses a clicky instead of the piston design of the ARC. The new ARC also has a ti bezel and the coating is different, though I can't say how much of a manufacturing cost difference there is between the HA and black coating. I'm sure these little differences add up quickly in costs. Though you could also argue the AlephMc is a custom and the ARC is mass produced which should help keep the costs down. There's probably a dozen other differences that others with a lot more knowledge than I have about both of these lights could point out.

But I do agree that if the new ARC can hit the market at $175 that would be fantastic but I'm pessimistic about that happening. :candle:


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## Codeman (Feb 1, 2008)

The biggest difference is the new Arc LS's software-based control. The Alephs, of which I have several, are simple 1, 2, or 3 stage lights.

It's like comparing apples and oranges to a entire fruit stand. Apples and oranges are great, unless you also want bananas, grapes, canteloupe, etc.


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## powernoodle (Feb 1, 2008)

paulr said:


> Anyway my disheartenment level is in the same ballpark as yours, FWIW.



I won't belabor this, but I was sorely disappointed from the outset to see that this new light seems to be - at is core - a rebadged PD with "Arc" stamped on it.

I had a PD once upon a time, and its one of the few lights I have sold. I just don't care for the UI. I seem to be in the minority, though, and both hope and expect that Peter will do well with the new light.

Irrespective of that, I consider myself a true Arc-o-phile. Probably own 30 or more. All the flavors. I was hoping to see the old LS/Arc4 bloodline in the new light. Heck, if I had a magic wand the new LS would look very much like (or even exactly like) the old LS (or even HDS), the way you can see the '65 Mustang hiding inside a new production Mustang. With an output to match the Fenix P1D Q5.

So if a new Arc comes down the pipeline in the months or years ahead, I hope it will remember what its grand daddy looked like.






_Too good to forget: a pair of lugged Arc AA's._


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## Crenshaw (Feb 2, 2008)

+1 actually powernoodle, i just bought an LS because i just love how it looks. Im actually really looking foward to the new LS, despite it looking like the McGizmo zeries  

It should be a good light electronically, and lightwise....

of course thats not to say that the McGizmo series doesnt look nice, its just i like the old ARC-Ls design better
Crenshaw


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## ouchmyfinger (Feb 2, 2008)

Many mixed emotions about the design. The LS first run twisty is one of my favorite designs. The "new" design is very similar to a PD, looks very familiar (nothing new), and shares very little heritage with past Arc designs. However, I'm quite excited to see a high quality mass produced light designed by folks like Peter, Don, Wayne and all the other CPF personalities that were involved. This light wouldn't exist if it wasn't for CPF. I can't wait until its ready.  Hey Peter, did you decide on an official name yet?


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## Seth (Feb 2, 2008)

ouchmyfinger said:


> Many mixed emotions about the design. The LS first run twisty is one of my favorite designs.


+1 on that.

IMHO one of the best-looking flashlights ever, don´t know why but they look so much better than the later 1-piece housings.

Seth


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## Hallis (Feb 2, 2008)

Seth said:


> +1 on that.
> 
> IMHO one of the best-looking flashlights ever, don´t know why but they look so much better than the later 1-piece housings.
> 
> Seth



I'll +1 that. The origonal first runs were the best looking LS. The smooth rounded bezel and other end where it mated to the twistie made it beautiful. it flowed well. 

Now about price. Before Mr. Bulk got into expensive materials i remember the Lionheart & Lion Cub being under $200 and those are definately computer controlled. Granted they arent PD lights though. I am not a huge fan of PD's personally having played with an origonal McLux 3 PD a while back. But If the new LS is in the $150-$200 area i'll likely buy one. My Arc4+ is one of my cherished nucleus of lights in my collection. 

Shane


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## Fathom (Feb 4, 2008)

In case this has not already been said, I think the price needs to be in line with NovaTac programmables from what little I know about the new ARC. If just because the NTp's have been in the field for some time, bugs worked out, etc.

I became a member of CPF years ago for no other reason than to watch and wait (quietly, very quietly) for a new ARC. I was in my 40's then. Now I am in my 50's and I feel like time is running out...

I have averaged 64 nights a year back country camping over the past twelve years (fly fishing). The last few years using just the ARC(AAA) and a generic headlight. I don't need anything else but I am antsy just to buy something new and for the first time I am feeling a flashlight buying binge, starting with JetBeam C-LE V2 ordered last night and now Novatac P's are keeping me awake at night (it is 5:30 AM)!

Let the new ARC out of its cage before I am broke, and end this sudden craving! Is it still too soon for an ETA?!

Please!!!
Fathom


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## Crenshaw (Feb 4, 2008)

Fathom said:


> !
> 
> Let the new ARC out of its cage before I am broke, and end this sudden craving! Is it still too soon for an ETA?!
> 
> ...



+ about 5 million..

Crenshaw


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## schiesz (Feb 4, 2008)

Any information on the new ARC released at SHOT?

schiesz


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## N162E (Feb 4, 2008)

Has anyone actually seen this light?


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## McGizmo (Feb 4, 2008)

dealer said:


> *EN or Black AlephMc-Mule complete with NG400 LE - $175 plus shipping & insurance. I would think a production light like an ARC LS should not be to much more that a custom light like the above.
> *



I have no idea what the Arc-LS is going to sell for and no idea over what size of production run Peter and crew hope to amortize all of the NRE.

However since one of my lights was brought up in comparison, I would like to point out a few differences I am aware of.

As mentioned the Arc will have a Ti bezel ring and reflector. The Aleph Mc-Mule has no bezel ring. The Arc will have a sapphire window, AMC a mineral glass window. The machined and plated piston is much more costly than the McClickie switch. The head of the Arc has some high precision milling work and would be much more expensive than the simple Mule head.

The big difference is in the electronics. Peter has been working on the magic box for the Arc for a couple years now and it is much more sophisticated and complicated than any other converter in its size that I am aware of. How that will map to value as perceived by the customer is one thing but I can only imagine the cost in bringing this converter to market!! :green:

The packaging of the Arc (ala PD) is not what I would consider an afterthought but it certainly was secondary and down the priority list I believe as it relates to the electronics themselves.

Hopefully I have not gone out of bounds with these comments. 

In terms of appearance, I would never enter the PD in any shape or form of beauty contest. Then again, I would not consider the Arc when it went to a clicky or later a tail switch, for such a contest either. The original twisty Arc was form following function and quite appealing, IMHO.

When it comes to UI, actual functions and ergonomics, one man's prize is another's discard.


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## Kiessling (Feb 4, 2008)

I guess the problem a lot of members do have with the appearance of the new Arc is not the look itself but the fact that it "borrows" its exterior from another respected line of lights and parts radically from the old looks.

I personally thing the McLuxIII-PD line of lights is one of the most beautiful we have seen to date, but that is IMHO of course 

bernie


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## Fathom (Feb 4, 2008)

I agree with Bernie, so far.., but if I could afford one I would have that too!

I'm just scared witless. I have absolute faith in Peter in all respects. I am just afraid it will be something I must have but just out of my reach. It's just hitting me lately after all this time. It's just the way it is. It sounds irresistible. And I don't want to see a poor knock-off 6 months down the road.

I wish him such good success that 5 or 6 world governments put in orders for all their military personnel, staff, secretaries, and he then produces a civilian model of even better quality that while much reduced in price continues to back pay Perter in the million$ for all the unpaid time invested by him and others over the years.


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## Crenshaw (Feb 4, 2008)

yup, peter deserves a huge collective pat on that back in some form from cpf.

Ah, i see so it IS basically a PD body, its still beautiful in its way McGizmo, different category from the Old Ls style IMO, both beautiful. Problem is, if this is going to be more expensive then a mule or PD.... im not going to be able to afford it, and should just buy a novatac now....

Crenshaw


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## schiesz (Feb 4, 2008)

I don't see any reason to worry over the price until it is here and ready to go. I do, however, wish that time was right now.

I keep hearing about the programmable nature of the UI, and its interface, but I haven't seen how this physically happens. If I understand correctly, it hooks up to a computer. Does it use a USB port or something? Are there pictures of this interface anywhere yet?

I just can't wait to see the whole thing.

schiesz


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## Ned-L (Feb 5, 2008)

I am patient  no problem waiting for news  

Doesn't  have an update?


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## Fathom (Feb 5, 2008)

Peter gave an honest update in post #337, and previously many good reasons for keeping updates of "future time tables" a little vague. Sign of a good, experienced engineer (and businessman). 

If there isn't a name yet then there is still the [engraving] to do. 

I designed with micro controllers for years (8748's and others in the 1980's and 90's) and know how analog and digital design can be tweaked endlessly before reaching an ideal aproximation of what's desired, and then time for burn-in and stress testing of the final design of a quality product rather than rushing off to market.

I never did sleep after my post (#355). I'm so ashamed, I got weak and finally ordered NovaTac 85P tonight. I was afraid if I got 120P I might not be able to sell it for a good price if/when new ARC appears. Still afraid that when ARC thingy does appear, there may be many other used lights going up for hard cash at the same time.

This week is the first time I bought any flashlights since my ARC-P in 2005, so my will power is good but does have limits. 

Who knows, the new ARC could be released before the purchase I made today arrives.


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## Fathom (Feb 6, 2008)

schiesz said:


> I keep hearing about the programmable nature of the UI, and its interface, but I haven't seen how this physically happens. If I understand correctly, it hooks up to a computer. Does it use a USB port or something?



Peter last described it here


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## Gransee (Feb 6, 2008)

Yes, a quick reminder that the pc interface is not going to be offered until after the light has been shipping awhile. It is not a high priority. We have a PC interface that we use during manufacture but it is not refined for customer use.

I finally picked a name for the new flashlight. This is because the heads went out for laser engraving last week. 

I plan on starting a new thread as we get closer that will have some new photos, the new name, the final feature set, etc. 

Beta testing has been going on for awhile now. I also demostrated the latest units at the SHOT Show last week. 

100% of the raw parts are now in inventory. What remains is the finaly assembly of the PCB, some firmware changes, unit assembly, retail pkg assy and final testing. I am telling people to allow at least 2 months to be on the safe side. 

Price, updated delivery estimate and lumen output will not be available until the production units are assembled and tested. I am waiting on that testing of the actual finished units to determine what claims we can make as far as output, etc. 

peter


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## Fathom (Feb 6, 2008)

Light at the end of the tunnel! :twothumbs

Thank you for this very much appreciated update. I can sleep now and not stare at this thread for a while, waiting, wondering.

I think many have understood the complexity of time tables as you have well explained in previous posts.

Thanks Again and smooth sailing :thumbsup:
Fathom


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## Gransee (Feb 6, 2008)

Another reminder, the feature set on this new light is simpler than the Arc4. 

There are 2 physical stages to the switch and a third, virtual stage. This provides single press access to 3 brightness levels. Which 3 levels you want to use can be programmed using the setting menu from a list of 6 choices. Those choices are 5 brightness levels and 1 strobe. 

For example, Kris (one of the beta testers) has his light set for I believe level 1 for the first stage, level 4 for the second stage and strobe for the 3rd. 

This means that for his light, if you touch the button lightly (or twist to the first level), you get level 1, which is is the lowest brightness and draws about 5mA from the battery and produces <1 lumen. If you press further, you get level 4, which is sending about 700mA to the LED. And from off, if you mash the switch down quickly, you get strobe, which is about 1100mA peak to the LED (50% duty cycle, 10hz). The strobe is quite annoying. Kris let me beam him in the eye with it (he gets beamed a lot it seems, check out his avatar). 

My test unit is set up the same except I have the 3rd stage set to lvl5. I am thinking about turning stage 2 down to maybe level 3 to improve run time while keeping stg3 at lvl5 so I have the high power option.

btw, the reason I make a point of mentioning that these 3 favorite levels are all accessible with a single press is that the Arc4 only had a single stage switch (as do many other lights on the market), so accessing other levels requires click codes. this means, turn on at one level, double click or click again for another level, etc. This distinction alone makes the new light much easier to use and quicker to get to work. 

So you have stages that can be matched in way to a pool of levels:

stage1 - stage2 - <stage3>
lvl1 - lvl2 - lvl3 - lvl4 - lvl5 - strobe

By default,
stage1 = lvl1
stage2 = lvl4
<stage3> = lvl5

But you can change that using the menu. I talked about how to use the menu earlier. And of course, your settings are saved even if you change the batteries. 

Another thing different from the Arc4 is that there is no standby drain on the battery. When the switch is off, the power is off. No parasitic power. People are talking a lot recently about reducing the standby consumption of electronics. Why not start with flashlights? This means you could store the cell in the light and it would last the shelf life of the battery. I am saying you could, if you wanted to, but I recommend for long term storage keeping the battery separate in case they leak (not that common for lithium, but why not be careful?). 

If you use rechargeables (which I prefer), you want to protect your cells from over discharge so they last longer. Protected cells have a built in circuit that cuts out at say 2.5volts. Unprotected cells don't have that circuit so you can keep running them down to zero theoretically. The light will dim before hand of course, so that does provide an additional warning to swap cells. 

One final reminder which was also mentioned earlier. The new light (name to be revealed soon) also has real temperature protection. The temperature right under the LED slug is monitored several times a second during operation. If the temperature gets too hot, the next lower level is automatically selected. This allows brighter levels to be made available without damaging the LED. So it is not only about making the light brighter but making the LED last longer as well. 

Compared to some of our competitors, we don't use windows (some people call these lenses) that were selected first for brightness and second for durability. I went for durability first, even though this sacrificed brightness. This is a tool, not a toy. This means sapphire instead of lexan, pyrex or UCL. Even though I had to pay for the extra durability, we more than made for this loss in brightness by the other design features. The end result is not only a more durable light but it is still brighter than the competition. 

Now I bought a bunch of UCL to test, but decided not to use it. I will probably sell what I have on the website, but I prefer to use the tougher sapphire personally and that will be the stock configuration. 

peter


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## Fathom (Feb 6, 2008)

> There are 2 physical stages to the switch and a third, virtual stage. This provides single press access to 3 brightness levels. Which 3 levels you want to use can be programmed using the setting menu from a list of 6 choices. Those choices are 5 brightness levels and 1 strobe.
> 
> For example, Kris (one of the beta testers) has his light set for I believe level 1 for the first stage, level 4 for the second stage and strobe for the 3rd.
> 
> This means that for his light, if you touch the button lightly (or twist to the first level), you get level 1, which is is the lowest brightness and draws about 5mA from the battery and produces <1 lumen. If you press further, you get level 4, which is sending about 700mA to the LED. And from off, if you mash the switch down quickly, you get strobe, which is about 1100mA peak to the LED


This is unfamiliar...

touch the button lightly
press further
mash the switch down quickly

I think I have the "2 physical stages to the switch".
How is "press further" different from "mash the switch down quickly" [virtual] action?
Can you power on directly to any of the three levels with these three button techniques?
Is there a "lock out" to prevent "touch the button lightly" from powering light on while in luggage/pocket?

mildly confused,
Fathom


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## Gransee (Feb 6, 2008)

I explained this earlier, but here's another take on the 3 stages:

The switch in the new light has 3 electrical states: off, low, high. The switch is normally off, so pressing it gives you 2 choices, low or high. This is called a 2-stage switch even though off is technically an input.  

I don't call the physical stages low and high because that is confusing. They are stage1 and stage2. This is because the customer may choose to assign a high level to stage1 and a low level to stage2. Or whatever. 

In simple operation, you could assign a low level to the first stage and call it "low" and a brighter level to the second stage and call it "high". This is similiar to how the PD works. 

Since we have a processor, we have the option of adding a third, virtual, stage. This can be usefull or confusing, your choice. If confusing, we can ship you the light with the 3rd stage disabled. Out of sight, out of mind. The third stage is not a physical stage. This means there is no electric contact assigned specifically to that stage. A 3-stage mechanical switch is much more complicated (and typically less reliable and compact) than a 2-stage. So I sought balance in the design and made the 3rd stage virtual. Most people can get by with 2 levels anyways so the 3rd is gravy. 

The 3rd stage is derived by timing how long it takes from off to get to the second stage. I theorized that in an emergency, a person would mash the switch down, expecting full power without delay. But in normal use, they would press the switch calmly and at a slower rate, which would provide a medium level. 

Like I said, we can disable if you would rather not have it. You can also just assign the same level to stage2 and stage3 so no matter how you work the switch, it acts the same. This doesn't have to be complicated. If you think you will use it, the option is there, otherwise, it acts likes a KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid) light. 



Momentary use (tail button):

Light is off and in your hand. If you press the tail button with about 2lbs of force and hold, the first stage is activated.

Stage1: from off, press button with about ~2lbs of force

Stage2: from off, press button with ~2lbs of force, pause for about 1/2 second, press harder (without releasing) to ~6lbs. If you slowly press the button, most people can hit this the first time without practice. Since the button is not released, this counts as one continous press. 

stage3: from off, press firmly and confidently with ~6lbs of force, this will transition through the physical stages quickly enough to register as a stage3 input. 

What if you are in stage1 or stage2 and want to go to stage3? Just turn the light off and back on with a full press. The processor is timing the period between off and stage2, not stage1 and stage2. 



Latched use (twisting operation):

"latched" means the light stays on by itself once you turn it on. This is done by twisting the battery compartment clockwise (righty tighty). Operation is the same as with the push button. Twist is a little, first stage, pause, twist a little more, second stage. From twist to second quickly; third stage. 

I hope this helps. I can make a video later. 

It is a lot easier to demostrate in person. Hopefully people can see that my goal was to find a balance in usability. The way each stage works is designed to take advantage of what we do normally. Light touch for a dim light (tip toeing around), deliberate press for thoughtful work, panic press (clench up) for full power.

peter


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## Gimpy00Wang (Feb 6, 2008)

- Chris


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## schiesz (Feb 6, 2008)

Ok, i'm VERY excited to get this one!

schiesz


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## Crenshaw (Feb 6, 2008)

Name to be Decided soon! woot, price and release date deciding anytime soon? 

Also Peter, does arcflashlight.com have any spiffy security systems? i STILL cant get to it from home, and im scared youll realease the new LS, and i wont be able to get it...:duck:

Crenshaw


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## Gransee (Feb 6, 2008)

Price, release date and min lumen output will be released some time between now and when it ships.  Like I said above, this is so I can verify everything on the actual production units. I know what the prototypes do but so far, the production units have been doing better. 

As far as not being able to visit the site, please try it from another computer. It could be dns, a problem with your isp, corrupted browser, etc. Taking the current machine out of the equation allows you test a whole fresh set of variables. I have tested the site recently from several isps and computers (was on the road this past weekend) and it loaded fine each time. 

peter


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## Crenshaw (Feb 6, 2008)

I have tried it from another computer, and, well it seems picky about computers! maybe its my router, but iSleep has the same problem too. Anyway, thanks Peter  if theres one thing i had to pick CPF to thank for, it would be pointing me toward ARCflashlights..

eagerly awaiting the new Ls..

Crenshaw


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## greenLED (Feb 6, 2008)

Peter - the operation sounds very straight-forward. I like the way of "forcing" Stage 3.


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## mraymer (Feb 6, 2008)

The connectivity problem may be due to 4 underwater cables being cut in the past week which has mainly affected the Middle East. This has caused numerous issues with routing and traffic management on the internet. It's mainly caused slowdowns, but there is the possibility some traffic is also being dropped.

http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/02/04/technology/cables.php


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## Gransee (Feb 6, 2008)

Actually, that sounds like the likely cause. After all, your profile says you are in singapore, which puts you in the thick of it.

peter


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## Haz (Feb 6, 2008)

Can't wait for this, thanks for the update Peter


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## Ned-L (Feb 6, 2008)

Gransee said:


> Beta testing has been going on for awhile now. I also demostrated the latest units at the SHOT Show last week.
> peter


Thank you very much for the updates. It helps deal with the anticipation frustration factor and keeps me from pulling the trigger on other purchases that could make it more difficult for me to rationalize buying the new Arc-LS as soon as it is available. 

Are the latest units physically different from the photo in post 308? If so could you share it with those of us who couldn't go to the SHOT Show?

I really like everything you have told us about this light. The switch design is creative and sound very functional. This is a must have light :twothumbs


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## notamchris (Feb 6, 2008)

Hey Peter,

If you are on a latched on state (by twisting) and you press the button, will it go to level three (as the arc 4 did)? I liked that feature, it meant that you always had maximum power available at the touch of a button while the light was latched on.


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## hayhay (Feb 6, 2008)

Sounds Awesome! So cr123 is the battery source correct? Any chance of having a 1xaa tube for us "common" battery guys?


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## Gransee (Feb 6, 2008)

They look the same as in the photo.

If the light is latched on, you have to turn it off and the go to stage2 to get stage3. otherwise you could assign max power to stage2 and then it would work more like you ask.

Yes, 1xCR123 in either a guarded w/clip or no guard version. Other packs are on the drawing board but will not be released until later. 

peter


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## N162E (Feb 6, 2008)

Gransee said:


> I also demostrated the latest units at the SHOT Show last week.
> peter


Arc had a booth at the Shot Show? You said very recently that you were not going to be a part of the show, just going to the show and showing it to some people. In any event it would be interesting to hear some comments from some people who have actually seen this light.


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## Crenshaw (Feb 6, 2008)

Gransee said:


> Actually, that sounds like the likely cause. After all, your profile says you are in singapore, which puts you in the thick of it.
> 
> peter


 that cant be the case, cos ive had this problem since before that. The only reason i was able to order the Arc -AAA before that was because i did it from work.. oh well, shall find a way..

Crenshaw


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## KingSmono (Feb 7, 2008)

Awesome Peter, I can't wait. The interface sounds very straightforward, but very functional as well.


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## jcompton (Feb 8, 2008)

Lookin' good Peter! Can't wait to get one of these in my hands!


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## Ned-L (Feb 8, 2008)

I don't remember seeing the dimensions of the Arc-LS in any of the post. Did anyone notice if they were posted or Peter can you mention/repeat what they are? It looks a good bit smaller than a PD, is it bigger than the Firefly III?


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## gloworm (Feb 11, 2008)

I know its a bit premature but just to get the ball rolling, how about this idea for an accessory for the LS. A multi fit tube able to handle at least three battery types (maybe more)and keep most people happy without having to make multiple tubes?
http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/te...dexId=cat20158


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## KeyGrip (Feb 11, 2008)

Ned-L said:


> I don't remember seeing the dimensions of the Arc-LS in any of the post. Did anyone notice if they were posted or Peter can you mention/repeat what they are? It looks a good bit smaller than a PD, is it bigger than the Firefly III?



http://www.cpfmarketplace.com/mp/showpost.php?p=2046702&postcount=524

Comparison to other single cell lights.


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## Ned-L (Feb 13, 2008)

KeyGrip said:


> http://www.cpfmarketplace.com/mp/showpost.php?p=2046702&postcount=524
> 
> Comparison to other single cell lights.


Thanks for trying to be helpful - I already saw that post. It would be helpful if I had the dimensions of any of the other lights that it is compared to in that photo.


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## jch79 (Feb 13, 2008)

Ned-L said:


> Thanks for trying to be helpful - I already saw that post. It would be helpful if I had the dimensions of any of the other lights that it is compared to in that photo.









The McLuxIII-PD (third light from the right) is 3.3" long w/ a crenelated bezel ring, as pictured.

The Arc AAA (first light on the right) is 2.55" long, or 2.8" long including the keychain lug.

The Arc LS is #2, #5, & #7 (it'll end up looking like #2 & #5, not #7, IIRC).

I hope that helps.

:thumbsup: john


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## paulr (Feb 13, 2008)

I like #7 best of these LS concepts.


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## err0r (Feb 13, 2008)

So far Peter has been saying that it will come in both styles (i.e., #2/5 & #7). One has the clip and recessed piston, the other doesn't - both styles will tail-stand.


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## PhantomPhoton (Feb 13, 2008)

I like the look of #7 as well. But I'd still buy the #3/5. If both are offered maybe I'll buy both. Good to hear the light is almost ready to ship... but I'll believe it when I see it. 

Anyone else hope for an 18650 tube for these later on?


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## Ned-L (Feb 13, 2008)

jch79 said:


> The McLuxIII-PD (third light from the right) is 3.3" long w/ a crenelated bezel ring, as pictured.
> 
> The Arc AAA (first light on the right) is 2.55" long, or 2.8" long including the keychain lug.
> 
> ...


John,

That helps - thanks for the information.

Ned


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## cybersoga (Feb 14, 2008)

Personally I think it should be as small as absolutely possible - The original Arc LS with 123A battery holder is huge compared with the Fenix P1D which uses the same battery. You've also got the Surefire Titan to compete with!


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## Crenshaw (Feb 14, 2008)

but the P1D is a twistie, not a clicky like the original Arc-Ls, so, cant really compare..:shrug:

or if you mean the twistie, then, it wasnt THAT much bigger, unless you want it to be thinner then the head...which would look wierd..lol

I need to find my a bombelman CR2 tail for my LS...

Hopefully peter's next post will be...
" ARC-LS is ready for preorder, post interest here.."

and hopefully the price wont hit $200, hopefully..

Crenshaw


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## paulr (Feb 14, 2008)

The LS twisty was thicker than the Fenixes but was one of the shortest 1x123 lights ever made, and was shorter than the P1D by several mm at least.


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## Kiessling (Feb 14, 2008)

The ARC LS twisty was magic. The form factor has that sexy tech-look no other light has achieved in this manner. At least for me. And it was tough like nails.
I would have loved a re-interation with a simple 2-stage twisty.

bernie


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## Draven451 (Feb 14, 2008)

jch79 said:


> The McLuxIII-PD (third light from the right) is 3.3" long w/ a crenelated bezel ring, as pictured.
> 
> The Arc AAA (first light on the right) is 2.55" long, or 2.8" long including the keychain lug.
> 
> ...


 

I should have never wandered into the Custom & Modders board - The new Arc LS sounds awesome - and the pictures look great. I can't wait to see this light become available....:twothumbs


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## Ned-L (Feb 15, 2008)

Do you think that the Arc-LS will be small enough to carry loose in the front pocket of dress pants?


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## jch79 (Feb 15, 2008)

Ned-L said:


> Do you think that the Arc-LS will be small enough to carry loose in the front pocket of dress pants?



Yes. Unless you wear tight dress pants. :green:

If you have a McLux PD, imagine a slightly shorter version. :thumbsup: I can pocket a PD with no problem. However, when possible, I prefer clipping my lights inside my pocket. (which is why my Arc LS will have a clip!)

If you don't have a MxLux PD, you're missing out! 

john


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## Ned-L (Feb 15, 2008)

jch79 said:


> Yes. Unless you wear tight dress pants. :green:
> 
> If you have a McLux PD, imagine a slightly shorter version. :thumbsup: I can pocket a PD with no problem. However, when possible, I prefer clipping my lights inside my pocket. (which is why my Arc LS will have a clip!)
> 
> ...


John,

I had a McLux PD, but I sold it because it felt is was a little too big and heavy to carry in dress pants. The McLux PD is a classic. I really didn't want to part with it, but I don't buy lights to sit on the shelf. I think that the new Arc-LS just might be perfect


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## Thujone (Feb 15, 2008)

really looking forward to a price being set...


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## hotdog (Feb 15, 2008)

Has a pre-order started for this light?
I have a feeling these will go fast and I don't want to miss out. I don't know about you guys but, it takes some time (and justification) for me to save for a $200+ light.
Frustrating


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## Mike75 (Feb 15, 2008)

hotdog said:


> Has a pre-order started for this light?
> I have a feeling these will go fast and I don't want to miss out. I don't know about you guys but, it takes some time (and justification) for me to save for a $200+ light.
> Frustrating



Same here, please, someone, start interest list...


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## mraymer (Feb 15, 2008)

I started saving once it was announced and have more than enough to purchase one. But I'm planning on getting a couple. I've attempted to be patient but I am so anxious for this to be released. I know it's going to be a while yet before we can even order them according to things I've read, but it would be nice to have a set price on them. It sounds as though the development is to the point where things have been decided, the design put into production, work has been done and some lights have been assembled. Having a price set on these lights now seems plausible to me and I'm discouraged that it hasn't been posted yet. Maybe it's not as far along as I've come to believe from what I've read or there could be other factors I'm not familiar with since I've never manufactured a light from scratch, but it's frustrating. It's been hard refraining from purchasing other lights I've seen come up in B/S/T since I have the money and I've sat in torment as I watch others buy lights that I really wanted. I figure if I go ahead and buy another light that they'll immediately post the new ARC for sale and begin taking orders. :sick2:


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## Fathom (Feb 15, 2008)

I missed out on the last of the ARC LLC and had to wait for ARC to be reborn. 

I joined here in 2005 to watch and wait for a new LS. I finally broke down a couple of weeks ago and bought my first flashlight in years. How's that for timing, I just didn't believe it was this close despite the talk.





Now all of a sudden I am scrambling to liquidate material belongings and stash cash for this light.


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## this_is_nascar (Feb 15, 2008)

Again, I have not read the entire thread from start to finish, however I'm wondering if the Arc-LS is going to be obsolete by time it's released. In all seriousness, other than the names associated with this light, what's putting the Arc-LS head-and-tails above the dozens and dozens of high-end lights already on the market?


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## cave dave (Feb 15, 2008)

this_is_nascar said:


> Again, I have not read the entire thread from start to finish, however I'm wondering if the Arc-LS is going to be obsolete by time it's released. In all seriousness, other than the names associated with this light, what's putting the Arc-LS head-and-tails above the dozens and dozens of high-end lights already on the market?



It will be a hard sell if the Titan T1A comes out first. On the other hand the Arc will have the nicest clip of any production light and will have two stage momentary.


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## this_is_nascar (Feb 15, 2008)

cave dave said:


> It will be a hard sell if the Titan T1A comes out first. On the other hand the Arc will have the nicest clip of any production light and will have two stage momentary.



So, is the Arc-LS just a rebadge PD or does it add other function/feature?


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## Fathom (Feb 15, 2008)

this_is_nascar said:


> I'm wondering if the Arc-LS is going to be obsolete by time it's released.


Old ARC's never die (literally, they have a lifetime guarantee) they just go up in value. Just try buying an obsolete ARC for original sale price sometime.



this_is_nascar said:


> what's putting the Arc-LS head-and-tails above the dozens and dozens of high-end lights already on the market?


Others could probably answer this better than I. In my mind just plain old well thought out rugged design, feel, quality. Difficult to quantify but you know it when you hold it. Yes, and the name. Clearly, obviously, it is already a collectible (I hesitate to mention that, don't want it to be a factor in price... I have to take Gransee at his word on that) *but it is meant to be used*, not sit in a display case.


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## schiesz (Feb 15, 2008)

this_is_nascar said:


> So, is the Arc-LS just a rebadge PD or does it add other function/feature?



The main thing I see that is adds is programmable levels. The main things PD-ish about it are the piston (of course) and the bezel size.

schiesz


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## :)> (Feb 15, 2008)

this_is_nascar said:


> So, is the Arc-LS just a rebadge PD or does it add other function/feature?


 
TIN,

The Arc-LS is very similar to a PD in form and the user interface is very similar as well. It will be a little bit smaller and will have the option of not having a pocket clip (which slims down the end a little). 

The thing about the new LS that causes me to eagerly await its arrival is that the UI is everything that I could ever hope for from a PD based light. 

Each of the THREE:thumbsup: levels can be set by the user to any of the 5 possible levels.
There are three levels which to me makes it more useful than the Don's PD's. I intend to set the virtual level on to the highest output and set level one at something near the PD's low and level 2 at around 300 ma.
Right now, there is no other light that I can think of that can give the user access to 3 levels of momentary output.
I really do like Don's PD lights and this is an evolutionary step forward so long as it functions as reliably or moreso than Don's version. 

I fully intend to get a aluminum Titan or 2 but it will not offer what the Arc does because it lacks a momentary option. 

If I had to choose between any light currently available or proposed and the new LS, I would choose the LS... thankfully, I don't have to choose:devil:


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## cerbie (Feb 15, 2008)

this_is_nascar said:


> So, is the Arc-LS just a rebadge PD or does it add other function/feature?


It is intended to be a production torch: consistent batches coming out to feed demand, rather than when some guy with a few tools finds the time to make them. Unlike Goatee, I *do* have to choose. Being able to save up (which also not to say some other emergency need for a few hundred $ won't come up) for a light that is not unobtanium, with fleeting spots of availability, makes a massive difference.

If I can't afford one when it comes out, I can still look forward to it, and get it a couple months later, rather than miss out on a wave or used offering. Depending on head and tube options (Fraen LP compatible parts to add in would be killer, IMO), that cycle could repeat a few times .

On top of that, there's the added output level, good temp compensation, and a smaller package.

P.S. I hope Peter uses nice warm tints. I like a vanilla beam (pun intended). I can't really see any better, I don't think, I just find them a bit calming compared to obviously looking frosty white, blue, or purple (yellow-green is fine beyond white walls).


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## this_is_nascar (Feb 15, 2008)

Thanks for bringing me up to speed with this so quickly.


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## BigHonu (Feb 15, 2008)

I'm thinking the new ARC LS would be competing in the same category as the HDS/RALights Twisty and the upcoming Lumencraft Polaris/EOS. Price point is going to be an important factor.


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## ouchmyfinger (Feb 16, 2008)

A key point of difference is thermal protection. I imagine we will see this in more lights as time goes on, but currently there are very few that include it.



this_is_nascar said:


> So, is the Arc-LS just a rebadge PD or does it add other function/feature?


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## kitelights (Feb 16, 2008)

Ray-

This might sum it up for you.......


McGizmo said:


> I have no idea what the Arc-LS is going to sell for and no idea over what size of production run Peter and crew hope to amortize all of the NRE.
> 
> However since one of my lights was brought up in comparison, I would like to point out a few differences I am aware of.
> 
> ...


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## kitelights (Feb 16, 2008)

And...... (I eliminated quite a bit of his post and left the more relevant points)


Gransee said:


> Another reminder, the feature set on this new light is simpler than the Arc4.
> 
> There are 2 physical stages to the switch and a third, virtual stage. This provides single press access to 3 brightness levels. Which 3 levels you want to use can be programmed using the setting menu from a list of 6 choices. Those choices are 5 brightness levels and 1 strobe.
> 
> ...


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## this_is_nascar (Feb 16, 2008)

kitelights said:


> Ray-
> 
> This might sum it up for you.......



Thanks. I appreciate it. I know I'm in the minority, but the fact that it will "look like" the PD is probably what will be the deal breaker for me. I'll wait until they circulate, look for the reviews and make a purchase decision from there.


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## mikes1 (Feb 17, 2008)

TIN TWO MORE POSTS TO 10,000

WOW

Mike


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## hotdog (Feb 18, 2008)

ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ... Wake me when we have an update:sleepy:


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## Mr.Remote (Feb 19, 2008)

I will put in my 2 cents. I think that stlye #7 is the best looking and most practical for me. I must have a belt clip. I also do not see how the other style will securely tailstand. I currently carry a modded HDS U42 It does everything I want it to. I would just like something a little smaller. I think this is the ticket. As far as the price, it is what it is. I will be able to afford it or I won't. I hope that he is holding off so he can get it as low as possible. I hope there are no more delays and that I can get in on the first batch. I look forward to clipping one to my belt.

Thanks Peter for a great, well thought out light.


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## moeman (Feb 19, 2008)

#7 for me....


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## mraymer (Feb 19, 2008)

Depending on price, I'm planning on the "buy both" mantra that's recited so much around here. I'm anxious for the market price to be divulged.


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## Ned-L (Feb 19, 2008)

I think that I like #7 the best, but would buy the smallest version with a clip.


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## Ned-L (Feb 24, 2008)

Peter,

Any news on how development is proceeding? New photos would be greatly appreciated, especially one showing its relative size, like in your hand.

Thanks,

Ned


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## dealer (Feb 24, 2008)

I have had problems with my P2D turning on in my pocket. I think having the piston exposed is a bad idea. Plus I need it to stand on end securely.


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## Gransee (Feb 24, 2008)

Right now, the light is delayed because the PCBs are delayed by the contractor that is putting the parts on the boards. They received a lot of business right before I issued the PO and as a result, about 1 month has been added to the schedule. 

Other than the finished pcbs (driver), we have every other part for the flashlight in inventory. 

The beta test is continueing. The testers have only reported a slight flickering in the LED output with certain rechargeable batteries under certain charge conditions.

Here's a photo of the light in my hand as requested. Of course, every hand is different so I don't think this provides a good sense of perspective, but there you go. 







Like I said earlier, the flashlight now has a new name, which will be revealed when I start the new thread. And that is planned for when the units are in the final production stages and I know more about lumen output, cost, shipping date, etc. 

btw, the first 100 units will have a serial number from 0000-0100. It will be first come, first serve. These units will have the new K2 TF LED. Subsequent units will have randomized serial numbers. At a later time, I may offer some of the beta units (marked "Arc-LS" and serialized 0000-0012) for auction. 

peter


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## Valpo Hawkeye (Feb 24, 2008)

Gransee said:


> Like I said earlier, the flashlight now has a new name, which will be revealed when I start the new thread. And that is planned for when the units are in the final production stages and I know more about lumen output, cost, shipping date, etc.
> 
> btw, the first 100 units will have a serial number from 0000-0100. It will be first come, first serve. These units will have the new K2 TF LED. Subsequent units will have randomized serial numbers. At a later time, I may offer some of the beta units (marked "Arc-LS" and serialized 0000-0012) for auction.



Looks like things are shaping up nicely! 

Do you know when/how the sign up will be for the first run of 100?


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## ouchmyfinger (Feb 24, 2008)

Gransee said:


> btw, the first 100 units will have a serial number from 0000-0100. It will be first come, first serve. These units will have the new K2 TF LED. Subsequent units will have randomized serial numbers. At a later time, I may offer some of the beta units (marked "Arc-LS" and serialized 0000-0012) for auction.
> 
> peter



Will the regular production run use the K2 as well? Is the recall/lack of new parts going to affect volume?


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## Gransee (Feb 24, 2008)

The k2 recall might be a problem. I have another order in for the April shipment but it may not come in time. This means there would either be a delay between the first 100 and the subsequent production or we may use some P4s for awhile until we received more k2s. 

Not all the K2s were effected by the recall. I have enough for the first 100 but no firm date on when I will get more past that. Future asked me if I wanted to sell my 100 k2s since a bunch of people want them. I said, "no way". 

I have installed a bunch of the K2s and tested them. The tint bin is W0, which is about as nice as you can get (right in the center). This is for the first 100 only, subsequent orders may be different bins (whatever I can get). But W0 is the best tint bin possible. 

I have also tested them for flux consistency. These are more consistent than what I have seen in the past. 90% of the units are within 10% of each other. Pretty tight compared to the old days when I had over 60% variation. Beam consistancy is excellent of course thanks to the new phosphor process. Overall, a very tight part in my opinion. 

I suspect most of you haven't seen the new TF K2s. The die has a distinct pin cushion pattern when viewed while off. This is how you know you have the real deal. 

peter


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## Crenshaw (Feb 24, 2008)

its getting close!
 is there anyway you can ballpark how much this is gonna cost now peter? thanks..

Crenshaw


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## Gransee (Feb 24, 2008)

I would rather not ballpark the price, shipping date or minimum lumen rating at this time. What I want to see first is the first 100 finished and tested before I make any claims. 

btw, I am doing must of the build on the first 100 myself. I will train the assemblers later. I want to see the connection between a design and its production first hand. That, and I don't want them screwed up. 

peter


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## Ned-L (Feb 24, 2008)

Peter,

Thanks for all the updates and the photo. It definitely makes the wait a little more bearable. 

Will you announce the availability of the first 100 lights in this thread? Can you give those of us who have been patiently waiting at least the time of day that you will announce it so that we have a fighting chance of getting an order in?

Ned


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## Gimpy00Wang (Feb 24, 2008)

Each update gets me re-excited all over again. 

- Chris


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## mikes1 (Feb 24, 2008)

I dont think there is any mileage in this post but just in case please let me have one of the first available new ls`s
thanks peter:bow:

your bigest fan and owner of 

LSL-P 405
LSH-P 1318
LSH-P1587
ARC4+0585

PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE

Mike:thanks::bow::bow::lolsign:

YES I am Deasperaate and sad but I love your stuff so much


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## iocheretyanny (Feb 24, 2008)

I am not familiar with the K2-TF LED's. What are the spec's? How are they better then CRee and SEOULs?


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## mraymer (Feb 24, 2008)

These first 100 won't last long, going to have to be fast to get in on the first run. Will the first 100 be available with both packs, with a clip and without?


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## this_is_nascar (Feb 24, 2008)

With all due respect Peter, I don't like the looks of this light, at all. The exposed piston is a huge design flaw. With all that we've learned on the ideal EDC over the years, why the heck would someone design a light with the activation plunger exposed like this? What good purpose could it have? I am really disappointed that it has the looks of the McLux-PD. I'm not sure what happened to your creative mind, but it looks like you threw all creativity to the wind in an attempt to get something to market more quickly. I admit to not reading the entire thread concerning this light, but I'm not impressed at all and am quite a bit disappointed. If you're only goal was to "release a new light", you should have stuck with enhancing the Arc-AAA. At least that light is innovative and displayed some level of creativity. The new Arc-LS appears to be a re-badged PD (and not even as eye-appealing, although the PD design never really did it for me anyway) and something that's being released just to say that Arc got another light out to market.


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## mikes1 (Feb 24, 2008)

.


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## McGizmo (Feb 24, 2008)

this_is_nascar said:


> With all due respect Peter, I don't like the looks of this light, at all. The exposed piston is a huge design flaw. With all that we've learned on the ideal EDC over the years, why the heck would someone design a light with the activation plunger exposed like this? What good purpose could it have? I am really disappointed that it has the looks of the McLux-PD. I'm not sure what happened to your creative mind, but it looks like you threw all creativity to the wind in an attempt to get something to market more quickly. I admit to not reading the entire thread concerning this light, but I'm not impressed at all and am quite a bit disappointed. If you're only goal was to "release a new light", you should have stuck with enhancing the Arc-AAA. At least that light is innovative and displayed some level of creativity. The new Arc-LS appears to be a re-badged PD (and not even as eye-appealing, although the PD design never really did it for me anyway) and something that's being released just to say that Arc got another light out to market.



But Ray, what do you really think about the light? :nana:

It seems you are judging this book by the cover and I think Peter's concentration has been devoted exclusively to the contents within. I realize that many will not see past the skin of a light and yet its performance is a function of that which is not "seen". I personally don't care for the unguarded sleeve as shown but from an ergonomic and functional standpoint.

If I follow your comments beyond the functional point of an exposed piston, it seems Peter could have wowed or satisfied you with a different appearance in this light based solely on its profile and surface features? Well those are things easily changed. IMHO, this light has been a long time in coming and due to the electronics and feature set of the converter. Peter's efforts and toils can only be evaluated in the use of the light and not perceived from a surface view of its shell. 

Peter could post a picture of the ultimately cool looking light which was host to a rubberband and jellybean driver and some folks would likely post 

I am not saying appearance isn't important and I certainly won't defend this two year old "shell" design in terms of aesthetics. 

If you speak for a great number of Peter's potential market then he likely should consider a new cover but again, I believe his focus has been on the contents and not the cover.


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## this_is_nascar (Feb 24, 2008)

McGizmo said:


> But Ray, what do you really think about the light? :nana:
> 
> It seems you are judging this book by the cover and I think Peter's concentration has been devoted exclusively to the contents within. I realize that many will not see past the skin of a light and yet its performance is a function of that which is not "seen". I personally don't care for the unguarded sleeve as shown but from an ergonomic and functional standpoint.
> 
> ...



I can respect that Don. I'm more than likely in the minority, but for everything I use or purchase, it must get past the "eye-appeal" test. Granted, some things I own "look better/nicer" than others, but if it doesn't "look" nice to me, it will never be purchased. This true though the entire spectrum of my purchases, weather it's an inexpensive multi-tool, up to and including a car or house. If you offer to sell me a new car at a fair price and it loaded with all the state-of-the art gizmos, etc, I won't buy it if I can't past the "looks" of it. I just feel, in this case, Peter took the easy way out to get something out to market. There's no creativity in the "packaging" of the electronics. It's already been done, as you know.


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## cerbie (Feb 24, 2008)

this_is_nascar said:


> With all due respect Peter, I don't like the looks of this light, at all. The exposed piston is a huge design flaw. With all that we've learned on the ideal EDC over the years, why the heck would someone design a light with the activation plunger exposed like this? What good purpose could it have?


Depends: do you want it that way? Notice there's a pocket clip version with the piston flush with the end.


> I am really disappointed that it has the looks of the McLux-PD. I'm not sure what happened to your creative mind, but it looks like you threw all creativity to the wind in an attempt to get something to market more quickly. I admit to not reading the entire thread concerning this light, but I'm not impressed at all and am quite a bit disappointed. If you're only goal was to "release a new light", you should have stuck with enhancing the Arc-AAA. At least that light is innovative and displayed some level of creativity. The new Arc-LS appears to be a re-badged PD (and not even as eye-appealing, although the PD design never really did it for me anyway) and something that's being released just to say that Arc got another light out to market.


In post 402, there's a quoted pic with several torches, including both new Arcs. The pocket clip one being right next to one of McGizmo's. The heritage is unmistakable, and you raise a great point. Not being quite the veteran, then, I've got some questions, here:
1. Who primarily did the mechanical design of the Arc LS, and the LS1 and up? 
2. Using the PD part makes sense, and there's not much else like it out there (that is, the PD part itself we know to actually be the best way to do it). But, what of the flared rear end? What does that bring that's useful? Are the milled ridges superior to knurling in actual use? If so, how? What about the wider section just before the head? What makes the cut out sections of the rear of the head, again, superior to plain old knurling? This whole thing basically boils down to, "is everything that was part of Don's designs really superior to more standard designs, or was it just convenient?"

On a final note, how on Earth is this quick to market? Take a decent converter board, give it temp control and some low light modes, stick it in an updated "old" LS housing design, then he could have a new one out in well under a year, I would imagine, and it would likely sell quite well. In fact, making a midrange single mode torch might not be a bad idea, after revamping the AAA.


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## schiesz (Feb 24, 2008)

this_is_nascar said:


> I'm more than likely in the minority



I think, if prior sales of other piston driven lights are any indicator, you are in the overwhelming minority if you don't like similar designs.

Personally, I prefer the guarded piston version of the light, and I am not completely clear on if both versions will be available. 

schiesz


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## ouchmyfinger (Feb 24, 2008)

this_is_nascar,

Awesome news! There will already be enough competition for the first 100. 

ouchmyfinger


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## Draven451 (Feb 24, 2008)

Peter,

Thank you for the update - Each post and update brings us closer to the launch of the new LS...I know everyone is excited and waits patiently or impatiently for the next post...

I hope I can grab one of the first 100! :twothumbs


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## cnw4002 (Feb 24, 2008)

No tailstand,=no buy.


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## Gimpy00Wang (Feb 24, 2008)

ouchmyfinger said:


> this_is_nascar,
> 
> Awesome news! There will already be enough competition for the first 100.
> 
> ouchmyfinger



Ha...I was going to post the same thing. 

- Chris


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## cerbie (Feb 24, 2008)

cnw4002 said:


> No tailstand,=no buy.


Both exposed and guarded piston tailstand. I agree about the unguarded one being less than ideal, but since the guarded one also has a pocket clip, hole in the clip for swivel mount (or that can be drilled out a bit for one), and ample room to be made as a lanyard mount, which one to buy is an easy decision.

IMO, the best set of tubes would be guarded piston with clip, and a no-piston short-as-can-be twisty with a hole for a lanyard. However, I'm sure enough people will want a plain twisty that if the initial release is successful, we'll get that option. So far that and warmer tints are about all I'd want that isn't being offered (W0 should be OK, but if he went to P4 in the V range, I'd hold out for those). I've had enough problems with cold NIMH and alky batteries to give in to Lithium, now. No more EDC AAs.


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## :)> (Feb 24, 2008)

I like the idea of the pocket clipless / no tail-guard option. Surefire's all have this and I prefer my Novatac w/a protruding tailcap... for me, it should give easier activation of the tailcap switch.


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## iconoclast (Feb 24, 2008)

I'm not totally convinced about the exposed plunger being a good idea, but I think there's an easy solution for my own use. The internals of this thing look like they're really the coolest part of this light, and I'm excited to see how the k2 stacks up. I'm not a huge fan of HA-nat even among the limited choices for HA-III. So I guess it's time to comb B/S/T for a used ti-PD and swap some parts. Best of both worlds I think. At least for my purposes. Now if I can just find a PD on B/S/T that lasts for more than 10 minutes...


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## tnuckels (Feb 24, 2008)

As an owner of neither the old LS nor a McLux, I don’t have a dog in this race, so to speak. I have admired both lines of lights, was sorely disappointed when I finally worked myself up to purchase one of the old, high-end ARCs, only to find that the previous venture had folded. From what I’ve gathered thus far, the new ARC offering seems an artful blending of good points of both lines of lights. I especially like:
LED Upgradeability – future-proofing the light will be a master stroke so long as updated electronics and/or reflectors are offered to match future LED developments
KISS Mechanicals – one of the sore points of the old LS line would seem to be overcome by loosing the Kroll in favor of McGizmo’s sturdy front and rear switching mechanisms
Simplified UI – another area of complaint, the “complicated” UI, appears to be addressed as well by providing a user configurable, but simple-to-use-everyday interface
Multi-Level-Output – to be the “one” light, adaptable to the situation at hand, at least two levels of output were necessary and adding the third virtual level is icing on the cake

I have a few thoughts about the light that center on two aspects of its form, namely size and carry options. I hope these observations can contribute in some small fashion to the thought process and/or possible future developments.

SIZE:
It appears that my guessitmate of the light’s size from early photos at just under 1x3” were correct. I once felt that a light of this size was too big as a primary EDC … huge on a keychain, a bit portly in my pocketses, irritating around my neck, requiring a holster or a clip outside your clothing as it has lost much of its ability to be tucked discretely away, but have learned that enough added function trumps many of these concerns in the end. Still, it would seem that all lights could be made smaller, and thus more easily carried, by avoiding clickies, reducing the wall thickness by using stronger materials, and using something like a snap-ring or a filler ring between sections to act as an attach point rather than altering the rear end to accommodate split ring holes or drilled mounts.

CARRY OPTIONS:
I cannot tell you how many pocket knives I lost as a youth, all having slipped silently out of my pockets, until I discovered the use of a lanyard/tether to attach them securely to my person. This lesson has extended nicely to the EDC carry of flashlights, and to date I have yet to loose a single light. While I appreciate the clip option, having used it extensively on my LongBow, I cannot say that I quite follow the necessity of adding a clip, which seems coupled to a more bulky body, just to have an attach point for a lanyard/tether. While the two bodies shown thus far look great, a minimalist, twist-only body with a serviceable attach point and/or clip would seem a potentially popular combination.

I will wait on ARC’s new offerings before pulling the buy trigger again, especially on a light in this proposed price range, as lights for me fill different niches in a spectrum of usability and have yet to become mere collectable baubles, and this new light may hit enough of my desirability buttons to work in the long run. I’d like express my sincere thanks to creators like Peter for doing the heavy lifting up front that then allow hack modders like me to tinker around the margins and personalize their creations to better suite their owner’s needs.


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## schiesz (Feb 24, 2008)

iconoclast said:


> I'm not a huge fan of HA-nat even among the limited choices for HA-III. So I guess it's time to comb B/S/T for a used ti-PD and swap some parts. Best of both worlds I think. At least for my purposes. Now if I can just find a PD on B/S/T that lasts for more than 10 minutes...



Be careful here, just because McGizmo helped with the the design and it has a piston, don't assume that the components will be compatible. I would be absolutely SHOCKED if they were compatible.

schiesz


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## Ned-L (Feb 24, 2008)

Peter,

Can you confirm whether the initial version of the light will include an attachment point for a lanyard (it does not look like it in the photos).

Thanks,

Ned


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## cerbie (Feb 24, 2008)

iconoclast said:


> The internals of this thing look like they're really the coolest part of this light, and I'm excited to see how the k2 stacks up.


Ditto. If the tinting is nice and even, I think we'll be in for a treat, now that they are nearly as efficient as Cree and friends; whilst being mechanically, thermally, and electrically more durable.

On top of that, an advanced driver with a dumb interface should increase the ability for the light to *just work* as a tool. I'll still blow up cheap emitters, one day become confident enough to pot my precious Piglet in something, and get other neat little lights; but I want another torch I can set next to my Leatherman PST, Arc AAA, and Klein #2 (I do work in PCs a lot, so a great Phillips is a must) as a tool of equivalent worth.

I don't have that, and all my current options require compromises I don't like (size, weight, ergonomics, UI, rechargeable support, gracefulness of failure, etc.). Now that I'm a believer in Lithium, cost and tint ("cat urine" green? I want that!) look to be the only issues for the new Arc (and cost is an, "if"). However, real info on the new Arc came about right as I financially hit a point where I could seriously entertain the idea of buying a HDS, nice Surefire, used McGizmo (if they'd stay up for sale long enough ), etc., and over 90% of that info has met or insanely exceeded what I want in my next EDC torch (FI, I'd be happy with a solid or SS bezel, and polycarbonate lens...but Ti and Sapphire sound good, if they really offer better durability). That's part of why I'm so enthused--even on paper, others have some real gotchas, and the new Arc has no gotchas, and many extras (to me).



tnuckels said:


> ...until I discovered the use of a lanyard/tether to attach them securely to my person.


You learned the hard way, too, huh? 
The clip also allowing for a lanyard (via split opening, or dedicated holes) means that I'll use both. Clipped to a pocket, with a custom wrist lanyard holding it to my belt (or hammer strap, or whatever else what I'm wearing has to grab to). I would be worried sick about it all the time with no lanyard or clip!


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## thesurefire (Feb 25, 2008)

Let me preface by saying I’ve been excited about this light for some months.

The main reason for my excitement was the whole concept of ‘utility’ What it looks like now is peter is trying to play off Dons success and make the PD a bit more tacti-cool and market it, with a few ‘revisions’ that basically add nothing to function. 

To be completely honest it looks like an ugly 6 level PD. 

What’s up with the tail switch? Didn’t we as a group work out that a switch sticking out was a no-no, like 4 years ago? The single greatest bang for my buck I’ve ever gotten from a flashlight related purchase was the 10 bucks I spent to get the plastic guard thing that goes over the tail cap of my L1. Utility is having a recessed switch so the light doesn’t click on when you sit down.

There is talk of two versions, one with a clip and one without. What if I want to use the clip, then change into something dressy and want to carry it in the pocket? Or what If I want to primary carry it in the pocket? I should buy the clip version to avoid it turning on? 

What’s the bezel ring thing doing on the light? Not only is it going to add cost, its worthless. I’m not going to try and stab anyone with my flashlight, I carry a knife. 

Someone is going to tell me that it shows when the light is on. My counter argument is simple, first, if it had a intelligently designed tailcap you would never have to put in bezel down. Second, how is that a bezel any different then drilling a small hole in the lip of the bezel much like the E2D has? 

How about all the unnecessary recessions on the head? I’m guessing they add cost in machining, and I find them quite ugly. I suppose they have some use in heat sinking?

A 5 level light is utterly disappointing. I’m a pretty simple guy. I want my EDC to have 4 levels, Very low, low, medium, and very high. I’m talking 1 lumen, 15 lumen, 60 lumen and then 180 lumen. Very high is negotiable because I’ll often add a second light to fill that void. Change one lumen to 5 lumen and it’s a deal breaker. If I’m going to shell out the kind of money it seems this light will cost, it has to be the latest, greatest EDC toy. 

I suppose peter could knock my socks off and sell this light for 120 dollars, but in all likelihood, I just can’t see this light retailing for under 200, and even then, I feel its likely that the ‘ultimate’ version will cost at least 50 dollars more then that. 

As Don said, lets talk about the insides. Peter stated the color bins will be ‘whatever is available’, so its likely that while not as prominent as years past, the luxeon lottery will be alive and well. And, it appears the max lumen rating will not be greater then 100 lumens, unless there are new K2 specs I’m not aware of? 

I hope I’m wrong on all my points and the new arc turns out to be the most utilitarian light ever created. If so I’ll be glad to pay Peters asking price. Function over form, but the form still has to work. 

When can we expect solid info (price, different versions, ect)?


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## schiesz (Feb 25, 2008)

thesurefire said:


> And, it appears the max lumen rating will not be greater then 100 lumens, unless there are new K2 specs I’m not aware of?



I guess you haven't seen the specs on the K2 with TFFC emitters.

275 lumen at 1.5 A, over 200 lumen at 1A, 95 lumen at 350 mA.

http://www.philipslumileds.com/products/line.cfm?lineId=18

schiesz


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## Crenshaw (Feb 25, 2008)

i must be missing something, they say they have the most powerful emittors, but Cree Q5s give 104 min lm at 350ma...:thinking:

Crenshaw


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## Thujone (Feb 25, 2008)

Crenshaw said:


> i must be missing something, they say they have the most powerful emittors, but Cree Q5s give 104 min lm at 350ma...:thinking:
> 
> Crenshaw



My guess is that beam quality put it over on the Cree. Easier to wrangle emission pattern and cleaner tint. The efficiency is still high, and if the variance is low then on average it may even be better than a Q5 after seeing the difference that crops up on them. Some are dimmer than Q2's.


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## err0r (Feb 25, 2008)

thesurefire said:


> ...
> What’s up with the tail switch? Didn’t we as a group work out that a switch sticking out was a no-no, like 4 years ago? The single greatest bang for my buck I’ve ever gotten from a flashlight related purchase was the 10 bucks I spent to get the plastic guard thing that goes over the tail cap of my L1. Utility is having a recessed switch so the light doesn’t click on when you sit down.
> ...
> A 5 level light is utterly disappointing. I’m a pretty simple guy. I want my EDC to have 4 levels, Very low, low, medium, and very high. I’m talking 1 lumen, 15 lumen, 60 lumen and then 180 lumen. Very high is negotiable because I’ll often add a second light to fill that void. Change one lumen to 5 lumen and it’s a deal breaker. If I’m going to shell out the kind of money it seems this light will cost, it has to be the latest, greatest EDC toy.
> ...



It's a two level light. Or a three level light. Or even a one level light - it all depends upon how you want to set it up. Out of the box it's (currently said to be programmed as) a two level light. The five levels mentioned (six if you count strobe) are merely levels that you can assign to any of the light's modes, two of which are instantly accessible from cold, whilst the third requires a whole additional 1/2 second. And to make you happy, the lowest level is ~5mA and <= 1 lm. Chill.

Plus theres no 'switch' to click on when you sit down - the light may (_may_) momentarily come on if you apply 2 lbs (or more) of direct force to the tail button, but the shape seems likely to minimise this possibility. Plus it will turn off as soon as the 2 lbs are released, which does seem likely when sitting down - if your sitting such that you're permanently applying 2 lbs of force to the light it strikes me as uncomfortable.

I know this thread is a long read, but if you're not going to read it all, save the negativity. You can buy or not buy when the time comes.


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## schiesz (Feb 25, 2008)

Crenshaw said:


> i must be missing something, they say they have the most powerful emittors, but Cree Q5s give 104 min lm at 350ma.


 
Ok, but does Cree have a rating for the Q5 at 1.5 A? Or, to ask another way, does Cree have any drive level that is RATED at over 250 lumens?

These emitters are made to take the abuse of higher driver levels.

schiesz


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## iconoclast (Feb 25, 2008)

schiesz said:


> Be careful here, just because McGizmo helped with the the design and it has a piston, don't assume that the components will be compatible. I would be absolutely SHOCKED if they were compatible.



Yeah, it was mostly a mental exercise anyway. Especially since we don't know the details of the LS yet. I'm not sure I could actually justify the cost of dissecting a perfectly good ti-pd anyway. Now if someone has a perfectly good ti-pd body with broken internals that they're dying to get rid of...

Besides, if the innards just dropped into the other body without any work, where would be the fun in modding it? :devil:


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## gunga (Feb 25, 2008)

I have some interest in this light, but I'm not sure if it can fit in my budget.

I know final pricing can't be set at this point, but I'm puzzled at why we can't even get a hint?

Like $150-220, $250-$350, $300+ or something?

We don't need final numbers, even a ballpark estimate would work.

I mean, it's okay to quote big and sell for less (works better than the reverse) but at least give us SOME idea, please?

Something as simple as, say $200+ would settle it for me (too much for me, but could be fine for others).

Just a general number is helpful. I don't see why it's so hard to offer just that?!

:thinking:


How about this simple question: Peter, do you think your lights will sell for more that $200? No number required, but just can you please provide that? If you don't know, ummm, why not? I don't think it's that specific is it? Again, no specific number requested, just a very, very general ballpark.


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## this_is_nascar (Feb 25, 2008)

As it relates to pricing, I find it very odd that this far into this project, that pricing has not yet been communicated. It sounds like at least 100-unit will be available in the 4-6 weeks. Since the parts/pieces should now be of know cost, I'm not sure why the secrets as regards to price.


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## gunga (Feb 25, 2008)

Edited: I've already said my piece...


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## powernoodle (Feb 25, 2008)

We are coming across as a bunch of crybabies, just like we (me included) did with Henry and HDS way back when. Waa! Waa!

When one of us opens a manufacturing facility, we can spill the beans all we want regarding the whats, whens and how muches, and do it months ahead of production. But its not up to us if Peter G does that.

JMO.


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## Hodsta (Feb 25, 2008)

powernoodle said:


> We are coming across as a bunch of crybabies, just like we (me included) did with Henry and HDS way back when. Waa! Waa!
> 
> When one of us opens a manufacturing facility, we can spill the beans all we want regarding the whats, whens and how muches, and do it months ahead of production. But its not up to us if Peter G does that.
> 
> JMO.


 
+1 Well said:thumbsup:.


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## hank (Feb 25, 2008)

Seems wise to me to wait til there's an actual product actually for sale.
-- show the actual light, available for sale, and state the price. 

Anything else is vaporware

Heck, Peter may be onto something, and want to see what the free market tells _him_ the price ought to be, at the beginning, by auctioning the first dozen or hundred, eh?

I think he deserves the best reward the world is able to offer him for working this long to stay in this business --- and that might include being surprised by how much people will pay him!

It'll settle down after a while, for the rest of us who may only drool, and wait, and cheer.


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## Crenshaw (Feb 25, 2008)

schiesz said:


> Ok, but does Cree have a rating for the Q5 at 1.5 A? Or, to ask another way, does Cree have any drive level that is RATED at over 250 lumens?
> 
> These emitters are made to take the abuse of higher driver levels.
> 
> schiesz


I knew i was missing something...:thumbsup:

Im with Gunga on this one, although i agree peter deserves our patience, a guesstimate price would enable me to know what lights to buy and what not to buy in the interim..

Crenshaw


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## Stillphoto (Feb 25, 2008)

Just curious (sorry if i missed this elsewhere in the thread)...In the initial run of 100, are we going to see both body styles? Or just the clipless?


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## SunnyQueensland (Feb 25, 2008)

I know this means nothing yet...

But I'm getting in line for one of the first 100... :nana:


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## Ned-L (Feb 25, 2008)

To remind me of what we know about the Arc-LS and to keep from asking Peter the same question over and over again, I decided to compile (with minor edits to avoid some repetition) Peter's posts from the last several months. I know it this is kind of long, but at least it puts most of the current information in one place.

*Construction/Materials*
#*507 (2-27-2008)*
Diameter is .95"
Length (either pack) is 3.0"

For comparison, the LSH-P is .95" x 3.1" and the Arc4 is 1.0" x 3.2"

The 2.2 ounces is for the no guard (slim) pack. With the guarded pack the light is 2.3 ounces. I think you will find this weighs less than most 1x123 lights while providing more drop resistance (ti ring), brightness and features.

#*155 (10-17-2007)*
The bezel is Ti, the body and head are HA plated Al and the piston is nickel plated Al.

The LED is epoxied to a bulkhead accessed from the front of the head. 

The initial skus will be a LS with NG sleeve, LS with guarded sleeve, NG sleeve by itself and guarded sleeve by itself. All sleeves are 1x123 twist and momentary push button. 

Don sent me some of his mcClicky switches. We are talking about making a 1x123 clicky sometime in the distant future.
#*158 (10-17-2007)*
The push button is momentary only. The twist of course is used to keep the light on so it can be set down (*both packs tail stand*), etc.
*Settings Menu*
1. Twist the head to stage1
2. Press the button ~10 times until the units starts to flash slowly
note1: you don't need to count, I just keep pressing the button until I see a different flash rate.
Menu lockout safety feature: You must complete the 10 presses within 10 seconds of first turning the light on to stage1. This is plenty of time. This way the light will not enter the settings menu if you are using it for Morse code, etc. If you miss the window, power cycle and try again. I added this lockout after using the light on a camping trip and accidentally entered the menu while looking for a wild animal near our tent.

Conventions used: flipping from one option to another is done by pressing the button briefly (letting the light return to stage1). Selecting an option is done by pressing and holding the button until the light indicates by a slow flash

3. Each stage is identified by a series of flashes. 1 for stage1, 2 flashes for stage2, etc. each time you press the button, the light will switch to the next stage (looping at the top back to 1) and indicate by flashing its code

4. Select the stage you want to change by pressing and holding after you see the display code for the stage you want. For example: enter the settings menu, press until you see 2 flashes, press and hold. 

5. Once you select the stage, you will enter the brightness setting for that stage. The light will stop the slow flash and go steady (or strobe) at the current setting for that stage. To change the level, press the button. With each press, it will toggle to the next highest level (looping at the top). 

6. To select a particular level for that stage, press and hold. The light will slowly flash and then exit the menu. You may then use the light normally. The new setting has been saved to flash and is immediately available.

Notice that there is a common operating convention that runs through the ui. Press to toggle through options, hold to select an option. Slow flash to indicate option is selected.

Remember this is a rough draft of the instructions. I have had better luck explaining it to people verbally so the instruction may not make much sense. Of course a video, graphics, etc will help. 
#*199/239 (10-27-2007/11-06-2007)*
*Voltage & Temperature Protection*
The LS has temperature and voltage fallback capabilities. When the battery is too depleted for the current level, it will drop to the next lower level. The power can also be reduced before the LED reaches the manufacturer's rated limit. This helps protect the LED and battery.
The LS has voltage and temperature protection designed to protect the light in the event it is left on accidentally.
#*213/245/267 (10-28-2007/11-08-2007/11-23-2007)*
*Power Source*
Btw, if you are buying rechargeables for the LS, I recommend un-protected cells with a no-load voltage of 4.2v (3.6-3.7v nom). 
Although I recommend unprotected lithium cells in the new Arc-LS, I do not recommend them for any other flashlight, especially when used in multiple-cell configurations. Repeated tests have shown that when used in multiple cell configurations (multi-cell flashlights for example), the risk of failure for any battery chemistry increases dramatically. This has been born out in laptops, RC hobbies, flashlights, etc.
The new Arc-LS does work with protected cells. The input range is 1.8-5.5v. The advantage to unprotected cells is they sometimes have a higher mah rating and you can draw more peak current out of them (no circuit breaker).
#*288 (12-11-2007)*
*PC Interface Software*
I won't be offering this right away, but instead after the light has been shipping for at least a couple of months. This is because the software is not done and the getting the light ready takes priority. The software does allow the levels in the 8-level pool to be adjusted. The software uses a USB interface to link with the flashlight. The flashlight does not have a USB interface (no room) but has an I2C type interface which connects to a interface card we provide which converts to the USB protocol. This card also has some other functions that are used for testing the flashlight boards in our production. That function is completed and is already being used. It is the user software that will be delayed.
#*337 (1-17-2008)*
*Status*
Received the HA plated units back this week and they look nice. In fact, some of the nicest HA I have seen in awhile. Everything threads well and this includes the screw holes. Nice machining. still waiting on the pistons to arrive from nickel plating, should be in a week or two. Ti Bezels are done. PCBs are being populated right now and the programming is approaching the final projects planned.
#*367 (2-06-2008)*
*PC Interface*
The pc interface is not going to be offered until after the light has been shipping awhile. It is not a high priority. We have a PC interface that we use during manufacture but it is not refined for customer use.

I plan on starting a new thread as we get closer that will have some new photos, the new name, the final feature set, etc. 

100% of the raw parts are now in inventory. What remains is the final assembly of the PCB, some firmware changes, unit assembly, retail pkg assy and final testing. I am telling people to allow at least 2 months to be on the safe side. 

Price, updated delivery estimate and lumen output will not be available until the production units are assembled and tested. I am waiting on that testing of the actual finished units to determine what claims we can make as far as output, etc.
#*369*
*3 Stage Switch*
There are 2 physical stages to the switch and a third, virtual stage. This provides single press access to 3 brightness levels. Which 3 levels you want to use can be programmed using the setting menu from a list of 6 choices. Those choices are 5 brightness levels and 1 strobe. 

For example: stage 1: level 1, stage 2: level 4, virtual stage: strobe. This means if you touch the button lightly (or twist to the first level), you get level 1, which is the lowest brightness and draws about *5mA* from the battery and produces *<1 lumen*. If you press further, you get level 4, which is sending about *700mA* to the LED. And from off, if you mash the switch down quickly, you get strobe, which is about *1100mA* peak to the LED (50% duty cycle, 10hz). 

So you have stages that can be matched in way to a pool of levels:

stage1 - stage2 - <stage3>
lvl1 - lvl2 - lvl3 - lvl4 - lvl5 - strobe

[#*507 (2-27-2008)*
Strobe is 50% duty cycle at 10hz. I selected 10hz because it is the most irritating frequency according to my research. The purpose of strobe is to be very annoying to anyone down range. One the testers assigned strobe to stage 3 on his light.]

By default,
stage1 = lvl1
stage2 = lvl4
<stage3> = lvl5

But you can change that using the menu. I talked about how to use the menu earlier. And of course, your settings are saved even if you change the batteries. 

Another thing different from the Arc4 is that there is no standby drain on the battery. When the switch is off, the power is off. No parasitic power. People are talking a lot recently about reducing the standby consumption of electronics. Why not start with flashlights? This means you could store the cell in the light and it would last the shelf life of the battery. I am saying you could, if you wanted to, but I recommend for long term storage keeping the battery separate in case they leak (not that common for lithium, but why not be careful?). 

If you use rechargeables, you want to protect your cells from over discharge so they last longer. Protected cells have a built in circuit that cuts out at say 2.5volts. Unprotected cells don't have that circuit so you can keep running them down to zero theoretically. The light will dim before hand of course, so that does provide an additional warning to swap cells. 

The new light (name to be revealed soon) also has *real temperature protection*. The temperature right under the LED slug is monitored several times a second during operation. If the temperature gets too hot, the next lower level is automatically selected. This allows brighter levels to be made available without damaging the LED. So it is not only about making the light brighter but making the LED last longer as well. 

Compared to some of our competitors, we don't use windows (some people call these lenses) that were selected first for brightness and second for durability. I went for durability first, even though this sacrificed brightness. This is a tool, not a toy. This means *sapphire* instead of lexan, pyrex or UCL. Even though I had to pay for the extra durability, we more than made for this loss in brightness by the other design features. The end result is not only a more durable light but it is still brighter than the competition. 
#*371 (2-06-2008)*
*3 Stage Switch (more info)*

*Momentary use* (tail button):
Light is off and in your hand. If you press the tail button with about 2lbs of force and hold, the first stage is activated.

Stage1: from off, press button with about ~2lbs of force

Stage2: from off, press button with ~2lbs of force, pause for about 1/2 second, press harder (without releasing) to ~6lbs. If you slowly press the button, most people can hit this the first time without practice. Since the button is not released, this counts as one continuous press. 

stage3: from off, press firmly and confidently with ~6lbs of force, this will transition through the physical stages quickly enough to register as a stage3 input. 

What if you are in stage1 or stage2 and want to go to stage3? Just turn the light off and back on with a full press. The processor is timing the period between off and stage2, not stage1 and stage2. 

*Latched use* (twisting operation):
"latched" means the light stays on by itself once you turn it on. This is done by twisting the battery compartment clockwise (righty tighty). Operation is the same as with the push button. Twist it a little, first stage, pause, twist a little more, second stage. From twist to second quickly; third stage. 
#*494 (2-26-2008)*
We now have 7 brightness levels and 1 strobe level.
#*382/383/384*
*Q.* If you are on a latched on state (by twisting) and you press the button, will it go to level three (as the arc 4 did)? I liked that feature, it meant that you always had maximum power available at the touch of a button while the light was latched on.
*A.* If the light is latched on, you have to turn it off and then go to stage2 to get stage3. Otherwise you could assign max power to stage2 and then it would work more like you ask.
*Q.* So cr123 is the battery source correct? Any chance of having a 1xaa tube for us "common" battery guys?
*A.* Yes, 1xCR123 in either a guarded w/clip or no guard version. Other packs are on the drawing board but will not be released until later.
#*432*
The first 100 units will have a serial number from 0000-0100. It will be first come, first serve. These units will have the new K2 TF LED. Subsequent units will have randomized serial numbers.

*PHOTOS*






With clip






No clip
#*228 (10-30-2007)*
The heads in both pictures are identical. The only difference between the two lights is the outside battery sleeve. Even the piston inside is identical.






Size comparison
The McLuxIII-PD (third light from the right) is 3.3" long w/ a crenelated bezel ring, as pictured. The Arc AAA (first light on the right) is 2.55" long, or 2.8" long including the keychain lug. The Arc LS is #2, #5, & #7.






In hand
#*435*
*Emitters*
I have installed a bunch of the K2s and tested them. The tint bin is W0, which is about as nice as you can get (right in the center). This is for the first 100 only, subsequent orders may be different bins (whatever I can get). But W0 is the best tint bin possible. 

I have also tested them for flux consistency. These are more consistent than what I have seen in the past. 90% of the units are within 10% of each other. Pretty tight compared to the old days when I had over 60% variation. Beam consistency is excellent of course thanks to the new phosphor process. Overall, a very tight part in my opinion. 

I suspect most of you haven't seen the new TF K2s. The die has a distinct pin cushion pattern when viewed while off. This is how you know you have the real deal.
#*461*
*Emitter Information*
K2 with TFFC emitters, see: 
http://www.philipslumileds.com/produ....cfm?lineId=18


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## Draven451 (Feb 25, 2008)

Ned-L

Great job compiling all that information into one post! Makes it easier to see how things have progressed.:twothumbs

I can't wait till we see the post that the lights are available! :huh:


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## FrogmanM (Feb 25, 2008)

Yes thank you Ned-L for the super post! I don't know why, but the clipless ARC LS pulls to me, a nice small light!

Mayo


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## Flying Turtle (Feb 26, 2008)

Thanks for putting all that together, Ned. Makes things easier for all of us.

Geoff


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## Daekar (Feb 26, 2008)

I agree that the clipless light is probably what I'd be better off with, but there is just something about that clip design that calls to me, it's quite beautiful in my opinion. I can't wait for these to come out... if they're not too expensive I might buy one for the boss' Christmas present, that should make an impression!


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## datiLED (Feb 26, 2008)

That picture really puts things into perspective. The new LS is a winner as far as looks (I love McGizmo designs). If the performance matches the appearance, it should be a killer light.


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## cerbie (Feb 26, 2008)

After those special first 100, will there be any plans to offer different emitters? I understand the K2 choice, but I would much prefer a P4 Vx tint, even if it can't handle 10A while boiling water without damage .

P.S. I took all the time yesterday to read the whole thing, from the CPFMP thread page 1 all the way through, and then Ned-L does this?! :nana: (to be fair, an intranet snafu left me unable to do much useful at work, yesterday)


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## REDLINEVUE (Feb 26, 2008)

Let me just start off by saying I realize that Im new to this forum and this is JUST MY OPINION.... But I just spent the last few hours reading up on this new upcoming ARC-LS and can't believe some of the whining going on... You'll get what he builds if you want it... If you don't like it.. DON'T BUY IT.. simple as that. I for one wish he would totally OVER INFLATE the price to keep it semi exclusive/desirable... Im talking about in the neighborhood of $200 or more!! 

I purchased TWO of the LS1's back when they first came out at about $100/ea and still use them on occasion to this day (best money I've ever spent on ANY light)... If you want a cross between the budget conscious & cutting edge LED then buy a Fenix or some other light.... But if you want a TOP QUALITY workhorse then IMO you should be willing to pony up the dough for all of Peter's hard work and BS he goes through tying to build the BEST DARN light he can.

_I truly hope nobody takes offense to this as its just me venting a bit and at NOone in particular. _


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## this_is_nascar (Feb 26, 2008)

REDLINEVUE said:


> Let me just start off by saying I realize that Im new to this forum and this is JUST MY OPINION.... But I just spent the last few hours reading up on this new upcoming ARC-LS and can't believe some of the whining going on... You'll get what he builds if you want it... If you don't like it.. DON'T BUY IT.. simple as that. I for one wish he would totally OVER INFLATE the price to keep it semi exclusive/desirable... Im talking about in the neighborhood of $200 or more!!
> 
> I purchased TWO of the LS1's back when they first came out at about $100/ea and still use them on occasion to this day (best money I've ever spent on ANY light)... If you want a cross between the budget conscious & cutting edge LED then buy a Fenix or some other light.... But if you want a TOP QUALITY workhorse then IMO you should be willing to pony up the dough for all of Peter's hard work and BS he goes through tying to build the BEST DARN light he can.
> 
> _I truly hope nobody takes offense to this as its just me venting a bit and at NOone in particular. _



Welcome to CPF. I don't necessarily think that people are whining. I think there have been some valid comments, suggestions and questions posted. If all these threads contained nothing than praise, without suggestions or critisms, it would be a very boring place. No one company will build something that pleases everyone. Anyone who tries, it destined to fail, without question. I encourage everyone to speak their opinions, in a respectful way, whether they agree or dissagree.


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## REDLINEVUE (Feb 26, 2008)

this_is_nascar said:


> Welcome to CPF. I don't necessarily think that people are whining. I think there have been some valid comments, suggestions and questions posted. If all these threads contained nothing than praise, without suggestions or critisms, it would be a very boring place. No one company will build something that pleases everyone. Anyone who tries, it destined to fail, without question. I encourage everyone to speak their opinions, in a respectful way, whether they agree or dissagree.


 
Thanks for welcomeing me... hopefully this don't wear out my welcome... but..... First and foremost, I agree that VALUABLE criticism and suggestions are KEY in providing feedback which is precisely why I stated "some of the whining"... But when it comes to making comments similar to "count me out", "by the time the LS is released it will be obsolete", "without a covered tail cap its useless" and (seeing as you brought it up) your comment of "why the heck would someone design a light with the activation plunger exposed like this?"... That don't sound too much like valuable feedback to me... I realize your likely a very valued member of this community and that Im new, but you can still try to keep it respectful... or like the old saying goes... if you can't say it nicely, then don't say it at all.


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## mspeterson (Feb 26, 2008)

REDLINEVUE said:


> Thanks for welcomeing me... hopefully this don't wear out my welcome... but..... First and foremost, I agree that VALUABLE criticism and suggestions are KEY in providing feedback which is precisely why I stated "some of the whining"... But when it comes to making comments similar to "count me out", "by the time the LS is released it will be obsolete", "without a covered tail cap its useless" and (seeing as you brought it up) your comment of "why the heck would someone design a light with the activation plunger exposed like this?"... That don't sound too much like valuable feedback to me... I realize your likely a very valued member of this community and that Im new, but you can still try to keep it respectful... or like the old saying goes... if you can't say it nicely, then don't say it at all.



You hit the nail on the head with that post! Far too many people think that because they can type something, they should post it, and because they posted it, it has merit. It is easy to "bad-mouth", far more difficult to be relevant, and even more difficult to actually create something worthwile.....

Instead of "internet-muscle/brain" fueled posturing and ranting, how about allowing a dialogue to develop, one where a designer feel compelled to participate and not defend. Saying "that sucks" or "thats stupid" leaves little to talk about. Perhaps some of our resident curmudgeons could put a little effort into their posts beyond an "off the cuff" rant or dismissal.


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## TITAN1833 (Feb 26, 2008)

REDLINEVUE said:


> Thanks for welcomeing me... hopefully this don't wear out my welcome... but..... First and foremost, I agree that VALUABLE criticism and suggestions are KEY in providing feedback which is precisely why I stated "some of the whining"... But when it comes to making comments similar to "count me out", "by the time the LS is released it will be obsolete", "without a covered tail cap its useless" and (seeing as you brought it up) your comment of "why the heck would someone design a light with the activation plunger exposed like this?"... That don't sound too much like valuable feedback to me... I realize your likely a very valued member of this community and that Im new, but you can still try to keep it respectful... or like the old saying goes... if you can't say it nicely, then don't say it at all.


Hi redlinevue,welcome I MUST POINT OUT AT THIS STAGE your reply  :sick2: is not the best tint here?,ah well on to your post, it is after all a feedback thread and we are entitled to our opinions.If some want out,so what!let them be  :twothumbs


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## mspeterson (Feb 26, 2008)

On topic...

I've been watching this thread for a long time...a LONG time....and would love to see the lights come out sooner than later. I can't imagine that Peter is deliberately postponing release, he would probably like to see them for sale more than most of us combined! But while we wait, it sure is nice to have Peter around to give us a tidbit here and there-its not often that a customer gets to watch and even "participate" in such a process. Thanks Peter!

I'm a fan of McGizmo's PD lights, so to me the design is great. I am worried that it may be a bit small for my large hands- the PD was borderline at times and the new LS looks to be even smaller; time will tell. I don't think I would go for the exposed piston model due to its even shorter length, but I would love to try one- you never know what works until you try! I'm also a fan of the "cigar grip", so the shrouded model looks perfect to me, and the added width at the tail should provide for better gripping. I think the most intriguing aspect of this light is by far the UI. Three levels is where its at for EDC lights IMHO, but the challenge is to make access intuitive and simple. It seems that Peter may have solved this challenge with his clever "hidden" level, It just remains to be seen if this translates well to actual use. 

Until then...:candle:


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## McGizmo (Feb 26, 2008)

REDLINEVEW and mspeterson,

Thanks for your comments. I composed a long response the other day and realized that it would appear to be coming from a defensive position and I figured screw it. I have no need to defend or appear to be defending. Nor do I have the interest or more important time to try to explain some realities in design and geometry which are contrary to off the cuff comments and observations by people. People who will gladly invest 1 minute of their time in a comment that might take a couple hours to properly respond to; having lost them well before anything could become clear or explained. 

Who wants to sit in on some dialog when some are passing bad air at the table? :nana:

This is Peter's table and he's stuck with it. Nice if some consideration was shown! 

To be clear, I see no reason that descent is expressed nor is there any problem with folks expressing opinions contrary to others. If one hasn't been in the trench or used a trenching tool it would be nice if any suggestions on how to do it were based on understanding and not idle or flippant comments with no foundation in the realities at hand. :shrug:

IMHO, uncertainty is better expressed in a question than as statement.


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## TITAN1833 (Feb 26, 2008)

Hey peter, I'll buy ask Don :devil:


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## mspeterson (Feb 26, 2008)

McGizmo said:


> To be clear, I see no reason that descent is expressed nor is there any problem with folks expressing opinions contrary to others. If one hasn't been in the trench or used a trenching tool it would be nice if any suggestions on how to do it were based on understanding and not idle or flippant comments with no foundation in the realities at hand. :shrug:
> 
> IMHO, uncertainty is better expressed in a question than as statement.



Very well said as always, Don!


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## cave dave (Feb 26, 2008)

Good work Ned :thumbsup: But in a few days your post will be lost in the middle of the thread again. I think its about time this post was closed and a new thread was created by Peter with all the relevant info in the first post and the 2nd post in the thread created by Peter as a placeholder for new info. A lot of new people have joined the thread recently and aren't willing to read 500+ posts for the info.


I do wonder what the pool of 5 levels will look like. :thinking:

From a logical standpoint to get pretty distinctive levels and a wide spread I would *guess *the levels to look something like this:

Lvl 1: <1 Lumen - from post#369
Lvl 2: 10 Lm - Useful walking/ camp chore brightness with long 15+ hr runtime
Lv 3: 50 Lm - Still pretty bright w 3+ hr runtime
Lv 4: 120 Lm or so - something bright but a reasonable efficiency with at least a 1hr runtime.
Lv 5: Max that battery can put out and thermal limiting will allow. 200+ unregulated lumens. Efficiency be dammed! - PG mentioned something along this lines as a possibility.

I can already guess that some would prefer a lower low. I've seen a fair amount of posters that use their HDS set to 0.08 lumens. They may be the vocal minority though for all I know, I like a low around 1-2 lumens myself.

Personally for a programmable light I think a pool of 5 levels to choose from is not enough.


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## TITAN1833 (Feb 26, 2008)

wrong thread,sorry


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## Gransee (Feb 26, 2008)

Thanks Don. 

Some questions brought up...

How will the 2 pack options be sold?
You can buy the light with either pack and purchase the other pack as an accessory if you want. This way you are only buying what you want.

Other LEDs?
Sure, the head has been tested so far with the cree, p4 and k2. It can probably fit some other brands as well. The reflector does have to fit that particular led however. Now, I don't plan on stocking a bunch of different LEDs. We may only offer 1 or 2 options at any given point to keep it simple on our end. This means the top 1 or 2 LEDs. Probably just 1 if I can help it. But now it is much easier than the old days to swap the LED out for whatever you want. Heat up the epoxy, wiggle the LED free, desolder the leads. Select an appropiate reflector or modify an existing model. 

Future packs?
None planned right now. I am thinking about a 2AA, a twisty only and a mcClicky 1x123. But those are just ideas at this point.

If I email you and ask for an update what will you do?
Point you to this thread. 

Will the first 100 be CPF only?
No, they will be on the website for all to see. Of course, you have to know it is there to take advantage of it and CPF'ers are more likely to know it is there. 

Reviewers?
After we get caught up with regular orders I plan on sending some units out for review. I suspect that we will have difficulty filling orders for awhile. 

LED or HA colors?
Not planned, but the LED can be swapped by a modder and some of the housing parts are interchangeable with the PD. 

Swap parts with a PD?
The threads are the same for the pack to sleave connection so a PD head or sleave can be swapped with an LS head or sleave. However, the bezels are not the same. Also, the interior of the head is different so the pd driver will not fit in the LS head and vice versa. The LS head is smaller in diameter and shorter in length. The LS pack is the same length and diameter. The big difference betweent the lights is the head geometry and the driver. This makes the overall light slimmer, shorter and lighter in weight.

Weight?
I am currently measuring a weight (with R123 cell) of about 2.2ounces, which is lighter than the Arc4 (2.65oz) or Al PD(3.1oz, the ti unit is even heavier if I recall).

The thing is so tiny it won't fit in my big hands. What am I to do?
This is going to be a problem with any EDC item like a cell phone, media player, etc. The trend is towards smaller and lighter tools. This makes them harder to use but more likely to be with you when you need them. I see this as a reasonable tradeoff. I know some people with really big hands. They also have tiny cell phones btw. At least with this light you can twist it on and then use it. Fortunately, holding it is a lot easier than activating it, which you only need to do once before each use. 

--

I mentioned earlier that I might add a few more levels not because I can (then I would add thousands) but because I think 2 more levels would nicely round out the majority of how people may use the light with different types of batteries. The programmer just added the 2 extra levels today for me to test. We now have 7 brightness levels and 1 strobe level. The extra levels where added to the midrange to help people tune the light for a particular battery and runtime. This still may not be enough for some people, but I am trying to strike a balance here. I don't want to add many more levels because then it takes longer to cycle through them and you get a diminishing return on usability in my opinion. 

peter


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## Gransee (Feb 26, 2008)

btw, I said in my last update that the PCB was delayed at the contractor and this was holding everything else up. I visited the CM today and toured their production line. They have made some good progress and I expect they will be done with the pick and place sometime next week. Then we have some hand work and then the boards should be ready for in-house assembly into the heads after that. Not sure exactly when that will happen but we are down to less than 2 months I figure. 

In the meantime, I am finishing up on the packs (sleave and piston sub assembly), retail packaging, website changes, LED sorting, etc. 

peter


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## MorpheusT1 (Feb 26, 2008)

Cool,

Thanks for the update Peter


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## cerbie (Feb 26, 2008)

Gransee said:


> The thing is so tiny it won't fit in my big hands. What am I to do?
> This is going to be a problem with any EDC item like a cell phone, media player, etc. The trend is towards smaller and lighter tools. This makes them harder to use but more likely to be with you when you need them. I see this as a reasonable tradeoff. I know some people with really big hands. They also have tiny cell phones btw. At least with this light you can twist it on and then use it. Fortunately, holding it is a lot easier than activating it, which you only need to do once before each use.


I don't have big hands, but I would think that's where a 2AA pack would be ideal. You serve people with large hands, people that travel and just can't rely on 123, and people who just want to stick to standard cells. 



> I mentioned earlier that I might add a few more levels not because I can (then I would add thousands) but because I think 2 more levels would nicely round out the majority of how people may use the light with different types of batteries. The programmer just added the 2 extra levels today for me to test. We now have 7 brightness levels and 1 strobe level. The extra levels where added to the midrange to help people tune the light for a particular battery and runtime. This still may not be enough for some people, but I am trying to strike a balance here. I don't want to add many more levels because then it takes longer to cycle through them and you get a diminishing return on usability in my opinion.
> 
> peter


Let people who are really picky get the PC interface later on and tinker with it. As long as the brightnesses out of the box are well balanced between brightness for a task and lumens per Watt from the cell (not Watt at the emitter, necessarily), it will be fine. Until it reaches 20 or so options, I would be OK with a more precisely-stepped list, but many folks will probably balk by 10.


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## Ned-L (Feb 26, 2008)

Gransee said:


> Thanks Don.
> 
> The trend is towards smaller and lighter tools. This makes them harder to use but more likely to be with you when you need them. I see this as a reasonable tradeoff.


Exactly - small enough so that it is always in my pocket :thumbsup:

Thanks for the update and other good details - I love the design, the quality, and features that you have put into this light. Now if I could just had one in my pocket:twothumbs


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## iocheretyanny (Feb 26, 2008)

Gransee said:


> I mentioned earlier that I might add a few more levels not because I can (then I would add thousands) but because I think 2 more levels would nicely round out the majority of how people may use the light with different types of batteries. The programmer just added the 2 extra levels today for me to test. We now have 7 brightness levels and 1 strobe level. The extra levels where added to the midrange to help people tune the light for a particular battery and runtime. This still may not be enough for some people, but I am trying to strike a balance here. I don't want to add many more levels because then it takes longer to cycle through them and you get a diminishing return on usability in my opinion.
> 
> peter




7 levels and a strobe - I love it!!!

you forgot the SOS - joking


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## The Coach (Feb 26, 2008)

Gransee said:


> Not sure exactly when that will happen but we are down to less than 2 months I figure.




Two months is good, my VISA should be cool enough to touch by then. :devil:


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## Crenshaw (Feb 26, 2008)

two months....:devil: thank you peter! barring any website visiting problem like i have been having, you WILL get an order from me. 

Crenshaw


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## thesurefire (Feb 26, 2008)

7 brightness levels, that’s what I'm talking about!

Peter posted a thread to give information. I assumed he wanted a response to this information. As has been said before, the advice you get is worth exactly what you pay for it. 

I think this thread has been much more beneficial to the design of this light then 200 posts saying “Awesome I’ll buy it for whatever price” would have been. Nothing wrong with encouragement, but I see nothing wrong with advice either.


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## Daekar (Feb 26, 2008)

I'm pleased to see the progress that's been made, things are shaping up nicely. I do have a question about the stobe, however. All of the strobes I've seen (Fenix and Wolf-Eyes) are more like fast blinks... they're not fast enough (or maybe short enough?) to be strobes, or at least to give that strobe-ish effect. Is the strobe on the LS going to be faster than that?


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## Ned-L (Feb 26, 2008)

Peter,

Can you tell us the actual length and diameter of the light yet?

Thanks,

Ned


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## REDLINEVUE (Feb 26, 2008)

Gransee said:


> In the meantime, I am finishing up on the packs (sleave and piston sub assembly), retail packaging, website changes, LED sorting, etc.
> 
> peter


 
I was just on the ArcFlashlight website and the drop down seems to be updated to show "Arc6".... does that mean this is the official name of the new ARC-LS... Forgive me if I some how missed this in one of the previous posts.


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## izaic3 (Feb 27, 2008)

I am also getting arc6 on the dropdown menu on the main page.


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## Gransee (Feb 27, 2008)

Diameter is .95"
Length (either pack) is 3.0"

For comparison, the LSH-P is .95" x 3.1" and the Arc4 is 1.0" x 3.2"

Strobe is 50% duty cycle at 10hz. I selected 10hz because it is the most irritating frequency according to my research. The purpose of strobe is to be very annoying to anyone down range. One the testers assigned strobe to stage 3 on his light.

The 2.2 ounces is for the no guard (slim) pack. With the guarded pack the light is 2.3 ounces. I think you will find this weighs less than most 1x123 lights while providing more drop resistance (ti ring), brightness and features.

peter


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## jcompton (Feb 27, 2008)

Thanks for the update Peter.
Looks like things are moving right along.:twothumbs


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## toby_pra (Feb 27, 2008)

Hello!

This Arc is really sweet and looks very beautiful. I like the coating!

But sorry for my question: when and where will this beauty be available?


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## TITAN1833 (Feb 27, 2008)

toby_pra said:


> Hello!
> 
> This Arc is really sweet and looks very beautiful. I like the coating!
> 
> But sorry for my question: when and where will this beauty be available?


toby_pra, under 2 months has been mentioned here.Just keep checking here for updates or on the Arc website.


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## Draven451 (Feb 27, 2008)

Can't wait till the next update Peter


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## Ned-L (Feb 27, 2008)

Gransee said:


> Diameter is .95"
> Length (either pack) is 3.0"
> 
> The 2.2 ounces is for the no guard (slim) pack. With the guarded pack the light is 2.3 ounces. I think you will find this weighs less than most 1x123 lights while providing more drop resistance (ti ring), brightness and features.
> peter


I thought for sure that the guarded pack version (with clip) was longer. Now I think I want the guarded pack version because I would like the flexibility of being able to attach a small lanyard and it looks like you could attach a lanyard to the clip on the guarded pack version. 

Will you have some of both packs available in the first 100 offered?


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## Crenshaw (Feb 27, 2008)

i suspect this light is going to be a user, thus, no need for the first 100 for me....as soon as i can get my router firewall down i should be able to visit arcflashlight...



Crenshaw


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## maxa beam (Feb 27, 2008)

I hope there's a ballpark price established soon. Below or over 200$ would be more than helpfull, as I'm either getting a L1 Cree or one of these for main EDC... And I can't really wait 2 months for pricing


A ballpark power rating would be helpfull aswell. Max of 200 lumens or less? power is an important factor in an EDC. Maybe the seventh level could be absolute max without burning the LEDs? Battery life, SHEH. We need raw power!

It'd be helpfull to establish an absolute release date, not a general idea. We need to know when to be here. (So we can get the first 100, naturally. Wonder how many minutes they'll last. o.o)


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## Crenshaw (Feb 27, 2008)

maxa beam said:


> I hope there's a ballpark price established soon. Below or over 200$ would be more than helpfull, as I'm either getting a L1 Cree or one of these for main EDC... And I can't really wait 2 months for pricing
> 
> 
> A ballpark power rating would be helpfull aswell. Max of 200 lumens or less? power is an important factor in an EDC. Maybe the seventh level could be absolute max without burning the LEDs? Battery life, SHEH. We need raw power!
> ...



Peter has already stated that he would rather not release any more information...as much as additional information would be nice,we should respect his wishes..after all, its his light....

we shall just have to wait...

Crenshaw


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## maxa beam (Feb 27, 2008)

Yes, he's stated that, but it doesn't mean I can't whine.

I mean, think logically. If we don't know ANYTHING about the light aside from stuff that won't really tell us if we're gonna buy it or not, we'll get impatient. 

In other words: Info pl0x. (Or early release? We're dying here. o.o)


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## Haz (Feb 27, 2008)

It does look like it will be called the Arc6, there is now more notes on the website

http://www.arcflashlight.com/lsseries.shtml
*Arc6 Series*


The Arc6 series uses one of the brightest LEDs currently available. The series includes:


LSL 
This was the first Luxeon Star powered flashlight on the market. This model has been replaced with the newer designs.
LSH 
This the second generation of the LS series. Using the new "High Dome" Luxeon which is brighter and has a better tint consistency.
Arc4 
This is the latest version of the LS series. Microprocessor controlled with brighter output, longer run times, more rugged construction and multiple brightness levels. Now available! Join the ongoing Arc6 discussion at the Candle Power Forums!

Please note that all LED products have some variation in brightness from unit to unit.


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## Gransee (Feb 28, 2008)

Still making changes to the website...

On the subject of Lumen ratings, the new LS will likely have a lower published lumen ratings than other 1x123 flashlights. This is because I will, as I have in the past, publish Lumen ratings that are based on actual tests of the output of the flashlight. This is stated as a minimum Lumen output with a fresh battery and is backed by our lifetime warranty. 

I am fine with head to head testing of the new LS with any other 1x123 light on the market using an accurate instrument such as a calibrated intergrating sphere. I use the local labs of Lighting Sciences Inc. in Scottsdale, AZ. They are a top-level lighting lab that produces reference sources for other labs. 

peter


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## Ned-L (Feb 28, 2008)

Peter

Will you have some of both packs available in the first 100 offered?

Can you confirm that the no guard (slim) pack does not have a lanyard attachment point?

Thanks,

Ned


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## Gransee (Feb 28, 2008)

Ned-L: yes, both packs should be available at the initial release. You may order them with either option or just the pack by itself like I said earlier. 

The no-guard pack (slim pack), does _not_ have a lanyard attachment.

peter


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## dealer (Feb 28, 2008)

Do I understand that we can order the guarded pack without a clip?
I hope so.


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## Stillphoto (Feb 28, 2008)

dealer said:


> Do I understand that we can order the guarded pack without a clip?
> I hope so.


 
Doesn't appear so no. You can order the lights with either pack, but nothing has been said of clip/no clip on the guarded packs...It's two screws away from no clip however...

It will be nice to have different bodies for different people, especially when things like the twisty and clickie bodies come out. Welcome back to the Arc multiple bodies days of yor!


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## maxa beam (Feb 28, 2008)

Gransee said:


> Still making changes to the website...
> 
> On the subject of Lumen ratings, the new LS will likely have a lower published lumen ratings than other 1x123 flashlights. This is because I will, as I have in the past, publish Lumen ratings that are based on actual tests of the output of the flashlight. This is stated as a minimum Lumen output with a fresh battery and is backed by our lifetime warranty.
> 
> ...


 
You're saying it'll be fairly un-powerfull?


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## datiLED (Feb 28, 2008)

maxa beam said:


> You're saying it'll be fairly un-powerfull?


 
He is saying that the lumen rating for the new Arc LS will be accurate, and not overstated marketing hype. He is also inviting you to compare the new Arc LS with any other 1 x CR123 light on the market (though they may have much higher _advertised_ lumen ratings).


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## mspeterson (Feb 28, 2008)

datiLED said:


> He is saying that the lumen rating for the new Arc LS will be accurate, and not overstated marketing hype. He is also inviting you to compare the new Arc LS with any other 1 x CR123 light on the market (though they may have much higher _advertised_ lumen ratings).




we need a "Don't feed the f'n trolls" smilie.....


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## kongfuchicken (Feb 28, 2008)

No, he's saying that his lumen ratings will be accurate by laboratory standards.
Pelican, Surefire and Arc are some of the few that actually test their output this way.


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## Stillphoto (Feb 28, 2008)

mspeterson said:


> we need a "Don't feed the f'n trolls" smilie.....


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## maxa beam (Feb 28, 2008)

That still doesn't tell me how powerfull the light is measured at. (Roughly.)
Oh well.


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## SaturnNyne (Feb 28, 2008)

maxa beam said:


> That still doesn't tell me how powerfull the light is measured at. (Roughly.)


Sure it does. Pick "any other 1x123 light on the market." It should be as bright or brighter than that. How's that for your rough estimate?

In the output range we're dealing with here, 30ish lumens either way isn't going to make much of a noticeable difference in use. Peter's told us all we need to know, the final number is actually pretty trivial.


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## Halibut (Feb 28, 2008)

The Arc LS was the light that started it all for me. Excited!


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## Ned-L (Feb 28, 2008)

Does anyone have a light of a similar size and do you EDC it when you are wearing dress pants? I really like what we have seen so far with this light and just hope that it isn't a little too big/too heavy to carry all the time in front pants pockets. I currently EDC a JIL with a CAB extender or an ORB Raw.


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## Crenshaw (Feb 28, 2008)

SaturnNyne said:


> the final number is actually pretty trivial.


Unless its in the high 200s, even at emitter, that would be pretty damn bright... :huh:

Crenshaw


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## :)> (Feb 28, 2008)

Ned-L said:


> Does anyone have a light of a similar size and do you EDC it when you are wearing dress pants? I really like what we have seen so far with this light and just hope that it isn't a little too big/too heavy to carry all the time in front pants pockets. I currently EDC a JIL with a CAB extender or an ORB Raw.


 
I don't own a light that is similar in size:thinking::shrug:

It is a little smaller than my PD's, HDS's and Novatacs but it is bigger than my P1D CE and Nautilus.

I have EDC'd my PD and Novatac's quite a bit and they are a little bit bigger than I like to carry but not too big. The Nautilus is just perfect and I suspect that the Arc6 will be just fine too... especially w/out the pocket clip.


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## Ned-L (Feb 28, 2008)

:)> said:


> I don't own a light that is similar in size:thinking::shrug:
> 
> It is a little smaller than my PD's, HDS's and Novatacs but it is bigger than my P1D CE and Nautilus.
> 
> I have EDC'd my PD and Novatac's quite a bit and they are a little bit bigger than I like to carry but not too big. The Nautilus is just perfect and I suspect that the Arc6 will be just fine too... especially w/out the pocket clip.


So are you thinking about buying the version without the guard or with the guard and maybe taking off the clip? I like the idea of the clip because when I take a long walk at night or run at night I like to hold the flashlight in my hand with a lanyard around my wrist so I don't drop it.


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## CM (Feb 28, 2008)

maxa beam said:


> That still doesn't tell me how powerfull the light is measured at. (Roughly.)
> Oh well.



This light is not designed to get into a peeing contest with some of the lesser manufacturers who publish bogus numbers such as those quoted from LED manufacturer's data sheet. Peter should be commended for using a lab such as LSI (remember, it is not cheap to do these tests, he is doing it in the interest of giving accurate and trustworthy lumen numbers). Whatever the numbers turn out to be, the LS is designed to be a tool that will give the user a reasonable number of outputs to choose from based on his application, and to provide that output with high efficiency. If you are looking for "240 lumens" out the front for two hours on a single CR123, I'm sure there are manufacturers out there who will make that claim. I don't think you'll find that here. What you'll get here are real and conservative numbers backed up by one of the pickiest flashlight guys around.


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## :)> (Feb 28, 2008)

Ned-L said:


> So are you thinking about buying the version without the guard or with the guard and maybe taking off the clip? I like the idea of the clip because when I take a long walk at night or run at night I like to hold the flashlight in my hand with a lanyard around my wrist so I don't drop it.


 
I want to buy one of each but I will likely buy the clipless first and maybe the body w/the clip if the price is too high for the whole light. I want to carry it in my pocket primarily.


----------



## jch79 (Feb 28, 2008)

CM said:


> This light is not designed to get into a peeing contest with some of the lesser manufacturers who publish bogus numbers such as those quoted from LED manufacturer's data sheet. Peter should be commended for using a lab such as LSI (remember, it is not cheap to do these tests, he is doing it in the interest of giving accurate and trustworthy lumen numbers). Whatever the numbers turn out to be, the LS is designed to be a tool that will give the user a reasonable number of outputs to choose from based on his application, and to provide that output with high efficiency. If you are looking for "240 lumens" out the front for two hours on a single CR123, I'm sure there are manufacturers out there who will make that claim. I don't think you'll find that here. What you'll get here are real and conservative numbers backed up by one of the pickiest flashlight guys around.



WELL SAID!! :twothumbs
:thumbsup: john


----------



## Cyclops942 (Feb 28, 2008)

Ned-L said:


> Does anyone have a light of a similar size and do you EDC it when you are wearing dress pants? I really like what we have seen so far with this light and just hope that it isn't a little too big/too heavy to carry all the time in front pants pockets. I currently EDC a JIL with a CAB extender or an ORB Raw.



The light fits quite comfortably in a pocket with either battery pack, and does not make a noticeable bulge in dress pants when carried with other items (keys or wallet, for instance) in the same pocket. 

My personal preference is to wear it on my belt, and the design of the clip and the accompanying battery pack make this comfortable, because the end of the light is very close to the top of the belt. When you wear the physical evidence of a sedentary lifestyle around your waist, such things become quite noticeable when they're done "the wrong way."


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## Ned-L (Feb 28, 2008)

Cyclops942 said:


> The light fits quite comfortably in a pocket with either battery pack, and does not make a noticeable bulge in dress pants when carried with other items (keys or wallet, for instance) in the same pocket.
> 
> My personal preference is to wear it on my belt, and the design of the clip and the accompanying battery pack make this comfortable, because the end of the light is very close to the top of the belt. When you wear the physical evidence of a sedentary lifestyle around your waist, such things become quite noticeable when they're done "the wrong way."


That's what I was hoping to hear! Now I know which battery pack version that I want to start with (if I can't afford both immediately) - the one with the clip. I assume that you are one of the lucky beta testers? Are you allowed to say more about your impressions of the light? Thanks for the input.


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## thesurefire (Feb 28, 2008)

CM said:


> Peter should be commended for using a lab such as LSI (remember, it is not cheap to do these tests, he is doing it in the interest of giving accurate and trustworthy lumen numbers).



+1 on LSI. Its comforting that Peter is using the best.


----------



## jonesy (Feb 28, 2008)

Does anyone have any pics of what it looks like? I don't really want to look through 18 pages...


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## Ned-L (Feb 28, 2008)

jonesy said:


> Does anyone have any pics of what it looks like? I don't really want to look through 18 pages...


See the summary post I did at 476.


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## JohnTz (Mar 1, 2008)

I just cancelled my order for the HDS twisty for this light. Henry continues to have challenges getting the twisty out so if I have to wait for my next EDC it may as well be the better one. ;-) So I'm locked and loaded and waiting for the announcement of the first 100. Let the games begin!


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## Fathom (Mar 1, 2008)

Ned-L said:


> Does anyone have a light of a similar size and do you EDC it when you are wearing dress pants? I really like what we have seen so far with this light and just hope that it isn't a little too big/too heavy to carry all the time in front pants pockets. I currently EDC a JIL with a CAB extender or an ORB Raw.


I just tried my Novatac in dress slacks pocket and various sport and dress coat vest pockets. I'm 5'11" and slim at 130lbs. CR123 x1 flashlight just doesn't work for me loose in any dress pocket, even tucked in the front of my underwear it's a bit much. In slacks or vest pocket clipped maybe, but not "dress" pants, too much like a roll of quarters.

If taking it with me to the theater to read the cheat sheet when the lights are low this light would look OK and feel better on belt. But my ARC-AAA is a more appropriate tool for that environment. For me personally any CR123 light would be awkward in dress slacks pocket.

Find a local store that has a small 1x CR123 light and try it with battery (for weight). If you are looking for "one" EDC that pockets well in dress slacks, CR123 form factor WILL be too big and heavy for some tastes. The only way to know is to try for yourself. Better yet, start a new wardrobe; ARC-AAA, ARC-AA, ARC-LS6,...


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## Ned-L (Mar 1, 2008)

Fathom said:


> I just tried my Novatac in dress slacks pocket and various sport and dress coat vest pockets. I'm 5'11" and slim at 130lbs. CR123 x1 flashlight just doesn't work for me loose in any dress pocket, even tucked in the front of my underwear it's a bit much. In slacks or vest pocket clipped maybe, but not "dress" pants, too much like a roll of quarters.
> 
> If taking it with me to the theater to read the cheat sheet when the lights are low this light would look OK and feel better on belt. But my ARC-AAA is a more appropriate tool for that environment. For me personally any CR123 light would be awkward in dress slacks pocket.
> 
> Find a local store that has a small 1x CR123 light and try it with battery (for weight). If you are looking for "one" EDC that pockets well in dress slacks, CR123 form factor WILL be too big and heavy for some tastes. The only way to know is to try for yourself. Better yet, start a new wardrobe; ARC-AAA, ARC-AA, ARC-LS6,...


Now that Peter posted that actual dimensions, I can tell that it may just work with dress slacks. I have a Firefly III that is a tiny bit smaller and it is okay with dress slacks (although sometimes I think it is a little bit heavy).


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## Fathom (Mar 1, 2008)

Gransee Post #494
Weight (with R123 cell) of about 2.2ounces

Gransee Post #507
Diameter is .95", Length (either pack) is 3.0"

Stack of 45 quarters (US currency) fits the dimensions exactly
but would weigh 9oz, 4 times the weight of the new [ARC6?]

So... 3 inch length of card stock rolled with 5 quarters at each end, and paper towel stuffed between the taped stacks of quarters weighs exactly 2.2oz, 3" by 0.97". But greatly lacks aesthetics and functionality.

Obviously I am getting eager to hold one in my hands.

Definitely smaller and lighter than my Novatac.


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## Lumenz (Mar 1, 2008)

The dimensions listed on Novatac's site list the 120P as being only .05" wider and .3" longer than the Arc6, and about .9 ounces heavier. As far as size goes, I think the Arc6 will be very close to the size of the 120P. 

I am going to wait for all of the reviews to come in before I dive into this one. However, I am excited about this light and I will definitely get one if it lives up to the hype.


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## SaturnNyne (Mar 1, 2008)

Fathom said:


> So... 3 inch length of card stock rolled with 5 quarters at each end, and paper towel stuffed between the taped stacks of quarters weighs exactly 2.2oz, 3" by 0.97". But greatly lacks aesthetics and functionality.
> 
> Obviously I am getting eager to hold one in my hands.


How much are you charging for these Arc6 pre-production purchase anxiety pacification units? Beamshots?


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## Fathom (Mar 1, 2008)

SaturnNyne said:


> How much are you charging for these Arc6 pre-production purchase anxiety pacification units? Beamshots?


$2.55 ea plus $15.00 S&H ea (just kidding)
If you put it in your pocket, don't look at it, don't touch you "might" be able to mentalize a beam shot of your own but I doubt it. :ironic:

Just that the same questions have come up around size/weight comparisons with only facts, figures, and pictures to go by.

This APU is a poor facsimile except maybe in a pocket. To me looks and utility count for a lot in judging size and weight of an item.

The 1/3 inch shorter and 1/3 less weight (by my scale) than my Novatac surprised me. My Novatac is 3.4oz with rechargeable CR123, PEU bezel, UCL lens and clip installed.

Now what to do for the next two months...


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## SaturnNyne (Mar 1, 2008)

Fathom said:


> $2.55 ea plus $15.00 S&H ea






Fathom said:


> The 1/3 inch shorter and 1/3 less weight (by my scale) than my Novatac surprised me. My Novatac is 3.4oz with rechargeable CR123, PEU bezel, UCL lens and clip installed.


Hm, the weight surprises me too, 1/3 is pretty significant. I figured it'd be closer since that pd system seems to have a lot of metal in it; but it's only nickel plated aluminum so I guess it doesn't make much difference. I'm not a very good gram counter, but I still like the idea of a lighter edc for the times when it does matter and the 120P is pretty hefty for carrying in some clothes.

Thank you for your tireless research and simulation experimentation.


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## JohnTz (Mar 3, 2008)

Hi Peter,
If we miss the first 100 when do you think the next wave will come? Couple weeks later, a month?

Thanks,
John


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## toby_pra (Mar 3, 2008)

I would be in for a new ARC LS :twothumbs


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## setherd (Mar 3, 2008)

I don't think this has been addressed, will a bezel for the PD or novatac fit the Arc-LS?
I was thinking of getting a Ti bezel with slots for tritium inserts for my novatac....I was thinking it would be icing on the cake if it would fit the new LS also


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## iconoclast (Mar 4, 2008)

...


Gransee said:


> Swap parts with a PD?
> The threads are the same for the pack to sleave connection so a PD head or sleave can be swapped with an LS head or sleave. However, the bezels are not the same.


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## setherd (Mar 4, 2008)

iconoclast said:


> ...



thanks iconoclast!


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## Gransee (Mar 4, 2008)

The bezels are different for a good reason for a change. 

update:

Did a bunch of training with the assemblers yesterday. Formed and Bead blasted the titanium clips, assembled the pistons, attached the clips, assembled both the guarded and ng sleaves (packs) and assembled the retail packaging. Ordering the batteries this week. I am going to go with Duracells to be included with the light. Might also order some powerizer kits for resale. 

Still waiting on the pcbs. I won't know the lumen output until we get the pcbs delivered and installed and the lights tested at LSI. 

I have tested the LEDs I have and I have enough to make about 100 lights. This so happens to be similiar to the number of sequentially serialized units I was planning to make. JohnTz asked if there would be a delay between the first 100 units made and shipping regular production. There probably will be. I would prefer to keep using K2s but if those continue to be back ordered, I may have to order the latest P4s and use those. I already have stock on the reflectors needed for the p4s just in case. So there will likely be some delay between the first 100 and subsuquent production. And, the following units may be P4 or K2. I am hoping for more K2s.

peter


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## datiLED (Mar 4, 2008)

Excellent! Thank you for the update.

I am trying to get my PayPal account loaded in time to catch one of the first batch. Gaurded tail for me, please!


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## JohnTz (Mar 4, 2008)

Thanks for the reply and the update Peter. My paypal account is ready for a guarded pack version. Just WAVE the flag and start the race for the first 100.


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## JohnTz (Mar 4, 2008)

BTW is that piston going to have a slot milled in it for a tritium vial? If so please let us know what the dimensions would be so we can start finding them while we wait for the light


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## fresnorich (Mar 4, 2008)

Please excuse my ignorance, but could someone explain the difference between the guarded and unguarded pack? Will the clip be available only on the guarded?

Thanks in advance.


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## TITAN1833 (Mar 4, 2008)

fresnorich said:


> Please excuse my ignorance, but could someone explain the difference between the guarded and unguarded pack? Will the clip be available only on the guarded?
> 
> Thanks in advance.


I belive it is to do with the switch i.e guarded (shroud around the switch) un guarded? no shroud around the switch.:naughty:

[edited]Sorry fresnorich, I should have said IMO a clip should come with both? if I wrong oops,sorry.


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## :)> (Mar 4, 2008)

Gransee said:


> The bezels are different for a good reason for a change.


 
:sigh::shakehead:green::sick2: I was hoping that this light would be an exact replica of the PD...

...just kidding

I figured that I would go ahead and get that complaint out of the way for those on the forums who complain no matter what direction you take. I figure you have taken quite abit of ribbing for the design having common traits w/the PD so I decided to give you a rough time for it not being just like the PD. 

I have a wierd sence of humor

Peter, for all of the great marketing that I have done for you, you really must make sure that you will save me a spot for one of the first 100... of course I would be happy to pay full retail for it:twothumbs


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## Crenshaw (Mar 4, 2008)

I really hope the Subsequent units get a K2 in them as well..... i probably wont be fast enough etc to get in the first 100 units with my stupid router's firewall which it doesnt let me turn it off... @ my router..

Crenshaw


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## toby_pra (Mar 5, 2008)

Will there be started a new Thread for selling the first batch???:candle:


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## Gransee (Mar 5, 2008)

Yes, there is a slot for a tritium vial in the piston. The same piston is used in the guarded and no-guard sleaves. The slot is .200" by .60" with rounded ends. The vial should be smaller than that to allow room for epoxy to hold it in place. 

Like I said earlier, we will not be selling the vials because the NRC would require us to report the names and addresses of everyone who buys a vial from us. I don't think that is right, so I am not selling the vials. Regulation can discourage industry. 

--

Only the guarded sleave has threads to hold a clip. The no guard sleave, which has a lower profile, does not have a clip. The no guard version was not designed to tail stand, but it does tails stand on the flat of the piston. It is not as as stable as the guarded version in a tail stand.

--

The first batch will be sold from our website. A thread on the CPF will not be used to reserve your order. I will make a post here on the CPF announcing the website is live. To reserve a unit, you will need to signify your firm interest by placing an order. We will not charge your card until we ship. We also accept paypal.

We are not taking orders yet. I will announce here on the cpf once the website is ready. 

peter


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## JohnTz (Mar 5, 2008)

Peter thanks.

.2 inches is 5.08mm, .6 inches is 15.24mm...sounds like a large slot. How deep is it? What do you think would be the perfect size to put in it?


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## Thujone (Mar 5, 2008)

Yeah I am thinking that had to be a mistake...


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## mikes1 (Mar 5, 2008)

I think .200" by .020" is more like it
Peter will correct me if I am wrong

Mike


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## Gransee (Mar 5, 2008)

Oops. Transcribed a zero. ".60" should have been ".06"

.200" (2 tenths of an inch) long by .060" wide. the depth is .065"

peter


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## JohnTz (Mar 5, 2008)

Peter would a 1.55 x 6mm vial work? I got a couple of those.


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## Gransee (Mar 5, 2008)

John, the 6mm (.235") is probably too long. I say "probably" because the slot is actually longer than .2" but has rounded ends (see the drawing below) while most vials have squared ends. The 1.55m (.061") diameter is too close as well, you want a little room on either side so that the epoxy encapsulates the vial. The vials are fairly tough so I think the top edge being exposed is ok but I would like it be firmly held on the sides.

Here's the drawing of the slot:







peter


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## JohnTz (Mar 5, 2008)

Thanks for the drawing Peter. I guess we need a 5mm long and 1.5mm wide vial or something close to that. These little ones are hard to find  I'll keep looking. 

Did you have a particular source in mind when you sized the slot? If anyone has a soure for this size please let us know. They can easily get orders for 100 of them!


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## Stillphoto (Mar 5, 2008)

Same sized slot as the Pd piston right?

I would imagine some things were not worth changing. I had one of Bart's vials put into the pd piston and it fit, but not as nicely as the vials Don used. If I recall, the pd's trit was perfect...the size wasn't taller than the slot and had enough room for the norland epoxy to completely surround the vial. Bart's vial fit but was a bit too tall. You cound easily feel that it was taller than the surrounding piston. I will note that the piston was polished pretty well, so that may have taken some material away.


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## Ned-L (Mar 6, 2008)

So close - Merkava has green 1.47mm x 5.5mm tritium vials for sale at the MarketPlace


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## JohnTz (Mar 6, 2008)

Thanks Ned I saw those that is why I asked for the size info. Seems that they are a bit too big


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## mraymer (Mar 6, 2008)

First off, let me apologize if this too off topic. It is from the original thread, but not from where the discussion has led. 

I just recently started looking into acquiring tritium and I know we have a fan base here that encompasses the globe and in many places it's no problem purchasing it. But from what I've read it appears illegal to buy tritium here in the states. Is this true and if so, how are people getting around this or are they just looking the other way? Some websites I've seen offering it for sale say they can't ship to the US. So can someone set me straight on what is or isn't permitted? :shrug:


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## Gransee (Mar 6, 2008)

It can be sold legally in the US. The problem is that the NRC requires that if you do sell it that you provide them a report of each person who bought it. 

Now if you do not provide that report, then it is being sold illegally. 

peter


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## mraymer (Mar 6, 2008)

Thanks, this makes sense as to why some sites can't, or won't, ship to me here in the states. This is crazy in my opinion, it's not like I'm buying a couple of pounds of uranium rich yellowcake to make a dirty bomb or something. I wonder why watch makers aren't held to the same standards. I own watches with tritium on the hands and I have never been asked to provide my address when purchasing. 

Enough about that however, I'll open another thread in a more appropriate place if I have further questions. I don't want this thread to get too far off topic regarding international security policies and procedures.:tinfoil:

Back to the new Arc6 LS - any MSRP on these yet?


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## datiLED (Mar 6, 2008)

mraymer said:


> ...
> Back to the new Arc6 LS - any MSRP on these yet?


 
Yes. I am interested in that number, too.


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## TITAN1833 (Mar 6, 2008)

Ned-L said:


> So close - Merkava has green 1.47mm x 5.5mm tritium vials for sale at the MarketPlace


I think they could be made to fit,with careful dremel work.


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## ibcj (Mar 6, 2008)

Is this trit slot in the tail going to remain an empty hole unless filled by the buyer ? If so, I would thing that it will be uncomfortable to use. Perhaps the slot could be filled with epoxy and removed by anyone wishing to install tritium. 

If this has been clarified anywhere in this marathon thread, I apologize. I've tried to keep up. :shrug:


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## hank (Mar 6, 2008)

*Re: The new Arc-LS -- VERY off topic re tritium/law*

http://www.nrc.gov/reading-rm/doc-collections/cfr/part030/part030-0019.html

The general license requirement Section 81 applies to:

"... persons who manufacture, process, produce, or initially transfer for sale or distribution self-luminous products containing tritium, krypton-85, or promethium-147 ..." -- others with serious uses are exempt from gettting the license, but anyone making "products primarily for frivolous purposes or in toys or adornments" is not exempt, and must have a license.

------- I am not a lawyer, this is not advice, just my thoughts -------

The people who don't want to sell into the USA presumably don't have a license to do so, and want to be able to travel to the USA without risking arrest. 

The USA has recently begun arresting jailing citizens of other countries for having done things that are legal in their own countries but that violate US law; see for example 
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2006/11/03/uk_net_gambling_haven/


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## tnuckels (Mar 6, 2008)

Hmmm … tritium and a Dremel tool … would that constitute a Homer Simpson moment, like in the intro to the series when he casually chunks the nuclear fuel rod out the window? Doh!


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## Stillphoto (Mar 6, 2008)

Using the piston with an unfilled slot is not uncomfortable at all. If anything, it adds a little traction. We're talking less than half a grain of rice practically. 

Also it can alternatively be filled with epoxy w/wo glow powder, making for a trit-free glowing locator.


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## iconoclast (Mar 7, 2008)

tnuckels said:


> Hmmm … tritium and a Dremel tool … would that constitute a Homer Simpson moment, like in the intro to the series when he casually chunks the nuclear fuel rod out the window? Doh!



nah, I don't think so.
The one out the window is much further away from your body than the one at the end of your dremel. :tinfoil:


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## tnuckels (Mar 7, 2008)

I like my hobby and all … just not sure it’s something I’m willing to die for, like that Litvinenko fellow a while back. Seriously, is it a bright idea to be grinding on a radioactive material and making a bunch of dust? I’ve read: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tritium that tritium is only dangerous if *ingested or inhaled* … Yikes! :tinfoil::tinfoil::tinfoil:

I’ve no experience with tritium, other than its use on gun sights, but anything in a vial sounds creepy … like James-Bond-death-gel-don’t-break-the-vial-unless-you’ve-got-the-antidote creepy. Anyone with a radiological background care to comment?


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## NoFair (Mar 7, 2008)

tnuckels said:


> I like my hobby and all … just not sure it’s something I’m willing to die for, like that Litvinenko fellow a while back. Seriously, is it a bright idea to be grinding on a radioactive material and making a bunch of dust? I’ve read: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tritium that tritium is only dangerous if *ingested or inhaled* … Yikes! :tinfoil::tinfoil::tinfoil:
> 
> I’ve no experience with tritium, other than its use on gun sights, but anything in a vial sounds creepy … like James-Bond-death-gel-don’t-break-the-vial-unless-you’ve-got-the-antidote creepy. Anyone with a radiological background care to comment?


 
The amounts of tritium in a tiny vial like that would be no worry at all. It would also be diluted almost immediately.. 

People are way to worried about radiation compared to other health hazards they willingly inflict on themselves:sick2:

Sverre


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## Fathom (Mar 7, 2008)

how to slightly round 'square corners' of tritium vial to fit 'round ended' slot of same length (PEU Bezel)

I bet 1.5mm x 5mm fits without alteration. 
I have also seen 5.5mm and 6mm long. 
I doubt 1.5mm x 6mm could be successfully altered, 
'maybe' 1.5mm x 5.5mm could be altered to fit.


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## Stillphoto (Mar 8, 2008)

NoFair said:


> The amounts of tritium in a tiny vial like that would be no worry at all. It would also be diluted almost immediately..
> 
> People are way to worried about radiation compared to other health hazards they willingly inflict on themselves:sick2:
> 
> Sverre


 
Yeah that!


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## TITAN1833 (Mar 8, 2008)

Why not make the slot slightly bigger? to accommodate the most common trits would that not be easier?


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## cave dave (Mar 8, 2008)

I don't think there is a common size.


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## TITAN1833 (Mar 8, 2008)

cave dave said:


> I don't think there is a common size.


Ah well, if I snag a ARC6 then I will dremel the slot to accommodate a 1.5mmx6mm trit. 

Thats unless there is a sudden influx of 1.5mmx5mm in the MP,which seem scarce at this time.


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## Isak Hawk (Mar 8, 2008)

NoFair said:


> The amounts of tritium in a tiny vial like that would be no worry at all. It would also be diluted almost immediately..
> 
> People are way to worried about radiation compared to other health hazards they willingly inflict on themselves:sick2:
> 
> Sverre



Yeah, you would have to inhale a lot of tritium for it to do any damage. If you somehow managed to inhale all the H3 in one of these vials that would give you the same dose of radiation as an X-ray scan (at least that's what I read somewhere  )


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## tnuckels (Mar 8, 2008)

Well, that’s easy for you big, strong Scandinavians to be so cavalier about it. After Chernobyl snorting a little girly-man tritium is probably a real letdown. Besides, you’ve got nothing to live for except long, bleak winters during which to admire you’re bright little flashlights. 

Me … I WANT TO LIVE! … :green:


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## NoFair (Mar 8, 2008)

tnuckels said:


> Well, that’s easy for you big, strong Scandinavians to be so cavalier about it. After Chernobyl snorting a little girly-man tritium is probably a real letdown. Besides, you’ve got nothing to live for except long, bleak winters during which to admire you’re bright little flashlights.
> 
> Me … I WANT TO LIVE! … :green:


 


We do have short bright summers as well

Hopefully the mutations will be beneficial

Sverre

PS! I think my watch has 16 trits, and not a blip on the Geiger counter at work


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## hank (Mar 8, 2008)

> manufacture, process, produce, or initially transfer for sale or distribution
The license is for those who have access to large quantities

I didn't find a requirement to report individual purchasers' names in the Nuclear Regulatory law. Homeland Security probably has an "anything we want we get" reporting rule to catch anyone who orders ten thousand items in ten thousand separate transactions.

Last October, Congress barely rejected a draft requiring the gov'mint check everyone's credit card bills every month to detect anyone gambling at sites not on the government's approved list of US business contributors.

Let's see if the blog software blocks that post (wry grin).


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## Flying Turtle (Mar 8, 2008)

I'm reminded of what an Ecology professor of mine once said. He stated that under normal conditions you will receive more radiation naturally from the person you sleep with than what you'd get from living near a nuclear power plant. Of course this was said long before Chernobyl or Three Mile Island. Sometimes I do have to wonder, especially those days when the plume is thick from the cooling tower of the plant seven miles from here, or when they test the emergency sirens.

I don't need trits. Everything already has a nice healthy glow. :laughing:

Geoff


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## rdg178 (Mar 8, 2008)

gimmegimmegimmegimmegimmegimmegimmegimmegimmethat arc6
thats all


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## tnuckels (Mar 8, 2008)

hank said:


> I didn't find a requirement to report individual purchasers' names in the Nuclear Regulatory law. Homeland Security probably has an "anything we want we get" reporting rule to catch anyone who orders ten thousand items in ten thousand separate transactions.



Steady there Hank old boy … don’t want the goon squad commin’ fer ye, caimin’ yer Al-Qaida-In-Berkley now … didn’t you get the memo that nothin’s funny anymore (wry grin).



NoFair said:


> Hopefully the mutations will be beneficial





Flying Turtle said:


> I don't need trits. Everything already has a nice healthy glow.



Maybe Mr. Fair & Mr. Turtle could show up, expose their 3d eye, and scare the pesky g-men away … who needs flashlights when you’ve got your own 500 lumen glowing mutation?


Right, I’ll quit now … come on Mr. Gransee … the natives are getting mighty restless!


----------



## digitaleos (Mar 10, 2008)

Patiently waiting. NOT!


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## JohnTz (Mar 10, 2008)

Yeah me too but it would help to know : Peter did you get the boards yet?


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## Cyclops942 (Mar 10, 2008)

nystrpr said:


> Is this trit slot in the tail going to remain an empty hole unless filled by the buyer ? If so, I would thing that it will be uncomfortable to use. Perhaps the slot could be filled with epoxy and removed by anyone wishing to install tritium.
> 
> If this has been clarified anywhere in this marathon thread, I apologize. I've tried to keep up. :shrug:



Nope, the empty slot in the tail is NOT a problem at all. As a matter of fact, it's hard to feel it at all.


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## setherd (Mar 13, 2008)

:sigh:


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## Stillphoto (Mar 13, 2008)

Silence is good! Frustrating, but good. That means the wheels are turning and the lights are coming.


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## Haz (Mar 13, 2008)

I had a dream, i was able to be catch one of the first 100


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## Ned-L (Mar 15, 2008)

Activity ... sign that the new Arc6 is getting closer. The ARC Flashlights website changed a little again: 

"The Arc6 is coming soon. It is the latest in the Arc LS series developed by Peter Gransee."


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## JohnTz (Mar 15, 2008)

Patiently waiting. I really hope I get in on the first 100 as well. My concern is that people will buy more than one so they will go too fast. Maybe Peter should do like Wayne does with the GDup and force 1 per customer on the intial batch to give everyone a chance to get one.


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## Frenchyled (Mar 15, 2008)

Peter,

I am waiting patiently too this new Arc Release !! I hope you didn't forget me 

And, I will be very happy to distribute your flashlight in Europe, it would be a pleasure for me..just let me know by PM or email...

Neolumen


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## gjg (Mar 15, 2008)

+1 on that. They'll still go quick, but at least a few more folks will get in on it. :thumbsup:
gg



JohnTz said:


> Patiently waiting. I really hope I get in on the first 100 as well. My concern is that people will buy more than one so they will go too fast. Maybe Peter should do like Wayne does with the GDup and force 1 per customer on the intial batch to give everyone a chance to get one.


----------



## mikes1 (Mar 16, 2008)

JohnTz said:


> Patiently waiting. I really hope I get in on the first 100 as well. My concern is that people will buy more than one so they will go too fast. Maybe Peter should do like Wayne does with the GDup and force 1 per customer on the intial batch to give everyone a chance to get one.


 

I was Initially thinking of getting one of each type (clip & clipless) however if the tail packs are available as an accessory one light and the optional tail pack is what I will get. I just hope there will be enough extra tail packs to go around

Mike


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## Stillphoto (Mar 16, 2008)

In good time I'm sure there will be plenty of everything, although I'm sure it will be slim pickins in the beginning.

Rather exciting if you ask me. An Arc renaissance, new tail packs to be developed in the future, new emitters as they become available. Like the fun of the original LS all over again, but with more features, and a heck of a lot brighter.


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## Drywolf (Mar 16, 2008)

Gransee said:


> The initial skus will be a LS with NG sleeve, LS with guarded sleeve, ng sleeve by itself and guarded sleeve by itself. All sleeves are 1x123 twist and momentary push button. It appears that the LED will be the latest P4, unless something changes by the end of the year.
> 
> peter


 
Just curious what will be the most common order when available?

1a. ARC6 with NG sleeve
1b. ARC6 with guarded sleeve

2a. ARC6 with NG sleeve plus GS pack
2b. ARC6 with gaurded sleeve plus NG sleeve pack

3. One of everything (2 ARC6's and two additional sleeve packs) My 
favorite.


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## mraymer (Mar 16, 2008)

Drywolf said:


> Just curious what will be the most common order when available?
> 
> 1a. ARC6 with NG sleeve
> 1b. ARC6 with guarded sleeve
> ...



2a and 2b are the same?!?! I suspect the most common order will be for the ARC6 with the guarded pack & clip as most people want their light to tailstand.


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## Xygen (Mar 16, 2008)

Can somebody point me to a description of these different sleeve types?
Thanks!


----------



## mraymer (Mar 16, 2008)

Xygen said:


> Can somebody point me to a discription of these different sleeve types?
> Thanks!



If you go back to post #476 and Ned-L's fantastic job of putting everything that's been discussed into one post, you'll see the two different battery packs that will be offered. The first photo is of the guarded tail with clip, the second pic shows the ARC6 with no tail guard. In the third photo, with the line-up, the no guard pack is second from the left, the guarded pack is the seventh from the left.


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## Drywolf (Mar 16, 2008)

mraymer said:


> 2a and 2b are the same?!?! I suspect the most common order will be for the ARC6 with the guarded pack & clip as most people want their light to tailstand.


 
I wonder if the first 100 serial numbers will be 50 with and 50 without guarded?


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## Stillphoto (Mar 16, 2008)

Doubt it. Lights are lights. You'll still have light number XXX regardless of the tail you use. Just like the LS series.


----------



## Drywolf (Mar 16, 2008)

Stillphoto said:


> Doubt it. Lights are lights. You'll still have light number XXX regardless of the tail you use. Just like the LS series.


 
I'm thinking that they will be ready for shipment (blister packed) when the orders are allowed to go through the system. So I would guess that there might be a mix of configurations for the first 100 serial numbers. Just a thought and a guess. This was the case when I ordered a GS (which was recently returned).


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## ZuluWhiskeyFox (Mar 17, 2008)

I'm thinkin' I like the guarded version better. Tail standing is nice to have. That button with it's wee flat just doesn't cut it for me. 

zwf


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## toby_pra (Mar 18, 2008)

Are there some new informations yet, about coming out the first run?


----------



## Blindasabat (Mar 18, 2008)

Do you have any new pictures? For some reason I want to see more. This is probably the most interesting new light in a long time. Looks good to boot.


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## Freedom1955 (Mar 18, 2008)

:sleepy::sleepy::candle::sleepy::sleepy:


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## mikes1 (Mar 19, 2008)

Hey Peter its my birthday in about a month whats the chances? :rock:


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## toby_pra (Mar 19, 2008)

Good question.....


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## Gransee (Mar 19, 2008)

Still waiting on the PCBs to be completed. Much of the delay is because the boards are, "6 lbs of stuff in a 5 lb bag". This makes them much more difficult to manufacture. A lot of hand work is required to make the boards perfect. This has increased the time and cost to finish them. 

I just visited the CM again yesterday to check on the boards. They say they should be ready for the ground ring, kilroy, etc in a week or 2. 

These costs and delays once again show what a premium there is on making something smaller.

peter


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## toby_pra (Mar 19, 2008)

Hello! 

Peter thank you very much for the info!

You cant imagine how lucky i would be to hold it in my hands...:mecry:


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## JohnTz (Mar 19, 2008)

Thanks for the update Peter. It seems everyone is having board delays of one kind or the other. Don's Lunasol and Henry's Twisty had electronic delays as well. Hang in there. We can wait. The light seems to be darn good and the wait will be worth it.


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## Tempest UK (Mar 19, 2008)

Thanks for keeping us in the loop 

Regards,
Tempest


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## Gransee (Mar 19, 2008)

It is very frustrating. I have all the other parts ready. The PCBs have delayed the finishing of the flashlight by more than 2 months so far. 

peter


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## hotdog (Mar 19, 2008)

Peter,
Any ball park on the price yet? Do I need to have $200 ready, $100. I would love to own the light but , anything north of 2 bills and I'm out...... Well maybe 3....


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## toby_pra (Mar 20, 2008)

Is the Version without the guarded Pack with Cilp or not? Because its not
shown in the pictures....


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## mikes1 (Mar 20, 2008)

toby_pra said:


> Is the Version without the guarded Pack with Cilp or not? Because its not
> shown in the pictures....


 

Guarded version has the clip unguarded version dose not

Mike


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## mikes1 (Mar 20, 2008)

Thanks for the update Peter 
I can’t believe how excited I am to get this light I don’t think I have ever been so eager to part with $xxx

Thanks again Peter the info makes the wait a little easer

Mike


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## toby_pra (Mar 20, 2008)

Thanks Mike!:wave:

Another Qustion: is it possible to put a lamyard or something else on the 
not guarded version, when it has no clip?

That would be quite important for me...


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## Ned-L (Mar 20, 2008)

toby_pra said:


> Thanks Mike!:wave:
> 
> Another Qustion: is it possible to put a lamyard or something else on the
> not guarded version, when it has no clip?
> ...


I don't think there is a way to attach a lanyard as the light is designed. I wonder whether anyone knows of someplace where you could purchase some kind of plastic ring that could clip tightly around one of the grooves and would have an attachment point. I really like the slightly smaller form of the non-guarded version, but like to attach a small lanyard like the ones I think greenled makes. I am quite certain that someone who makes lanyards could make one that would attach by wrapping around on of the grooves, but I don't know whether you would have to send the light to the maker to have it made on the light and then of course you couldn't temporarily remove it.


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## toby_pra (Mar 20, 2008)

I like both Arc's :twothumbs

But i need to put a Lanyard on it. And so i need to bye/ order, i hope soon,
the one with the guarded pack...

Although i like the one no gaurded pack a little bit more:buddies::drunk:


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## Gransee (Mar 20, 2008)

Lanyard can attached to 2 places on the clip.

peter


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## toby_pra (Mar 21, 2008)

Hello Peter!

Thanks for the update. But could it also be attached on the version
without guarded pack?because it has no clip...


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## Ritch (Mar 21, 2008)

You could use a well fitting O-ring for attaching a lanyard and having a good cigar grip.

> richard


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## hotdog (Mar 21, 2008)

Still no price range Peter? "Tap tap is this thing on?"


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## Gransee (Mar 21, 2008)

No, I am not providing a price estimate, range, etc at this time. I have already explained why- several times.

peter


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## hotdog (Mar 21, 2008)

Peter, I guess that's the luxury you have because you make such good lights. If I held out this long on pricing in my line of work I would lose a large number of my customers. Count yourself one of the lucky ones. This is in no way a dig on you, just me wanting the light bad and not knowing if I can afford it.....:thumbsup:


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## olrac (Mar 21, 2008)

Poor Peter, this is like having to deal with your children in that week before Christmas.......X1000 

Good things come to those that wait :santa:


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## Gransee (Mar 21, 2008)

Sorry. As my wife says, I am cranky. Its because the PCBs are delayed. And I have answered the question several times. I even did give an estimate awhile back. 2 of them if I recall. I said, "expensive" and "somewhere over $200". I have also told people $250+. But I am not estimating anymore until I have finished product in my hand. 

peter


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## Groundhog66 (Mar 21, 2008)

I guess these irritations will occur when people run out of good questions:thinking:, isn't this thread like almost 2 years old already?:sigh: I, like many, will own the light when it arrives. But I can't help but think this frenzy was created a bit early in the game, yes I know.....


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## AWGD8 (Mar 22, 2008)

:devil:With so much waiting and blah, blah blah.....

I expect this light(NEW ARC-LS) can do this ... :nana:












(images from mtbkndad ) :devil::devil::devil:


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## Gransee (Mar 22, 2008)

That looks likes several thousand lumens and HID.

Nice to see a Prius in the shot.

peter


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## olrac (Mar 22, 2008)

AWGD8 said:


> :devil:With so much waiting and blah, blah blah.....
> 
> I expect this light(NEW ARC-LS) can do this ... :nana:
> 
> ...



New LS on low low setting :nana:


----------



## toby_pra (Mar 23, 2008)

Oh man, if this new arc ls is really so bright, i will never need another flashlight...


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## Cyclops942 (Mar 23, 2008)

AWGD8 said:


> :devil:With so much waiting and blah, blah blah.....
> 
> I expect this light(NEW ARC-LS) can do this ... :nana:
> 
> ...



I hate to be the one to break it to you (even Peter didn't come out _*directly*_ and say this), but you're SOL*, pal. (Unless, of course, this is an HO- or N-scale model train setup, in which case we could be back in business... )



* SOL ::= Stuck Outta Luck (this *is* a family-friendly post, after all)


----------



## hank (Mar 23, 2008)

Hey, you left out the followup picture where the target bursts into flame just before the photons accelerate it out of the picture.

http://static.howstuffworks.com/gif/nuclear-test-5.jpg

Oh, wait, I wasn't supposed to mention the nuclear-pumped version ...

Someone's knocking ....


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## monanza (Mar 24, 2008)

Hi,

Three years it's been almost to the day. When I last checked in, Peter you had sadly closed shop on your first venture. I am delighted to see you are back. This new ARC '6' is looking mighty promising. Hopefully it all comes together soon.

Cheers


----------



## yaesumofo (Mar 25, 2008)

IMHO it would be really nice to see these lights and their final ready to go designs with specifications and detailed images on the very nice ARC website.
If not now when?
Why not now?
I understand (sort of) about waiting until the last moment to price the light. I don't understand withholding an official easy to read (and possibly get excited about) specs and images of each light with a clear description of each light with all various options.
I will give you the price hold-back but now lets see these babies in all of their glory!!
The people really do want to be able to use the WEB site to learn more about the new Arc's
Yaesumofo


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## Daekar (Mar 25, 2008)

I don't blame Peter for hesitating to release any further information about the Arc6 until at _least_ the PCBs are successfully stuffed, tested, and installed in a few bodies for further final testing. The chances are slim of course, but if a systemic problem revealed itself now it might necessitate changes in the specs - or a change in PCB supplier/boardhouse - better to hold back specific information just a little bit longer than to release before it's wise, that way Peter has the flexibility he needs to make the best decisions for everything.


----------



## tnuckels (Mar 25, 2008)

These actual dollar figures are news to me, but perhaps I missed this somewhere along the journey, have forgotten them somehow, or perhaps you shared this information in some other setting. All I recall was that it was going to be “expensive”. 

In setting a price early, you’re damned if you do … and you’re damned if you don’t. It is the unfortunate plight of being at this point in time and upon this stage.

Throw out a price that’s too high and it may scare buyers off, then if the project comes in under budget some may be caught short of funds having invested in alternatives, maybe creating sore feelings and loosing customers.

Set a price too low and then run into unforeseen overruns, and you either have to eat the difference or raise your price, which for some will make you the bad guy, maybe creating sore feelings and loosing customers.

Don’t set a price at all and it leaves many prospective buyers, folks that have waited a long time, those that have been patient and understanding of your ambitions for this product release, those who support your efforts and want you to succeed, it perhaps leaves them in the uncomfortable position of not knowing if they will be able to afford this offering, not knowing how much to save up or if they need to forgo other purchases in order to be a player when the selling begins, and in the awkward position not being able to act on other opportunities for fear of missing out on this one. 

Many of your customers are well healed enough for the price to be irrelevant and others are (dare I say) a bit fanatical and will buy no mater what, but there are also those who can afford to do as they wish but are more prudent with their purchases and then there are some for which this will be quite a stretch. For those in these later groups your silence on this subject may well be seen as something of a disservice given how late in the process it appears to be. I would not be so hasty as some to label them petulant children demanding their Christmas trinkets; many are simply cost conscious adults who need this figure in order to make an informed decision about this sizable purchase. Yes, there are some brats out there, but lets not confuse weariness with childishness.

I do not envy you and your position one bit, though I do covet some of your flashlights :naughty:. In some sense this release may be viewed as the redemption and resurrection of ARC as a major player back on the field of high powered lights. Let’s hope that there is a widespread appreciation for the pressure this puts the project under, which you seek to relieve through a meticulous attention to detail, an exhaustive testing and re-testing regiment, and by a close to flawless execution of the hopes and dreams and desires you’ve got wrapped up in this effort. 

Unfortunately this all takes time, which as we know stands still for no man, despite any amount of gratis we may wish you. 

Good Luck Peter!


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## this_is_nascar (Mar 25, 2008)

To be honest, I think this entire Arc6 discussion started way too early. Peter has traditionally, often to a fault, mention upcoming releases earlier than what he should have (in my opinion). The talks of the Arc6 started so long ago it rediculous. Yes, I know about all the uncontrolable delays, but if this product would have been a bit more tight-lipped and not mentioned when it was, there'd be a different outcome and opinion. At this point, the only thing that is known is that there is a product, it's a joint effort as far as the creation of the product and it going to cost somewhere north of 2-bills. True, the function/features of the light has been discussed, but I've gotten into the habit of not believing anything until it's a real item.

I know Peter's heart is in the right place, but going forward, I think he should keep all annoucements quiet until he has something ready to ship.


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## Halibut (Mar 25, 2008)

this_is_nascar said:


> I know Peter's heart is in the right place, but going forward, I think he should keep all annoucements quiet until he has something ready to ship.



Of course, that still wouldn't stop us from bugging him incessantly.


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## JohnTz (Mar 25, 2008)

Take it easy on the guy. He is trying his best to deliver the light. Stuff happens. I for one actually enjoy living through the drama. It makes me appreciate the light more knowing all the hurdles/challenges one has to overcome to bring one of these lights to market.


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## moeman (Mar 25, 2008)

I enjoy hearing updates also.


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## cave dave (Mar 25, 2008)

I think it was obvious from the get go that the price was gonna be:

*"If you have to ask, you can't afford it"*

PS Its gonna be more than the HDS or T1A.


----------



## ZuluWhiskeyFox (Mar 25, 2008)

Oh come on now guys. This is kinda like a soap for guys. We could call it:
-General Flashlight, or
-As The Flashlight Shines, or perhaps
-The dim and the Lightless



cheers,

zwf


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## BobVA (Mar 25, 2008)

What hooked me on CPF was reading the UI design discussion for the ARC 4 (ALL of it!). I came in late, so I got to see a time-compressed version of all the twists and turns as ideas were batted around, enhanced, discarded, prototyped and finally transferred to the final product. (Remember the on-line UI simulator?)

Looked at that way, I haven't really viewed this thread as some kind of drawn-out product release announcement. To me it's been more like a "sculpting on the lawn" approach to design. It's fun to see how things take shape, and perhaps the discussion serves as a useful sounding board as the product develops.



> ZWF: Oh come on now guys. This is kinda like a soap for guys. We could call it:
> -General Flashlight, or
> -As The Flashlight Shines, or perhaps
> -The dim and the Lightless



I'm thinking more like our version of Discovery Channel "American Flashlight"


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## mikes1 (Mar 27, 2008)

Ned-L said:


> So close - Merkava has green 1.47mm x 5.5mm tritium vials for sale at the MarketPlace


 

I think these will fit I got them to fit this by rounding the ends of with a cermaic stone

Mike


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## rdg178 (Mar 28, 2008)

gimmegimmegimmegimmegimmegimmegimmegimmegimmethatlight


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## jayflash (Mar 29, 2008)

This thread goes a long way in explaining why we vote as we do, in the USA.


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## Daekar (Mar 29, 2008)

jayflash said:


> This thread goes a long way in explaining why we vote as we do, in the USA.


I couldn't agree more. God forbid we ever adopt a direct democracy, rule by the masses would be absolutely terrifying.


----------



## toby_pra (Mar 29, 2008)

I think Daekar is right, although am not from the USA...


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## olrac (Mar 29, 2008)

Take off your brown shirt and relax......democracy works


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## olrac (Mar 29, 2008)

my bad


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## JohnTz (Mar 29, 2008)

Great now we got political stuff in this thread as well.:shakehead


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## GlockDoc (Mar 29, 2008)

Ok, to get back on topic: Are there any ideas what the max output of this light is going to be?


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## REDLINEVUE (Apr 1, 2008)

THE NEW ARC's ARE UP and SELLING!!! GET'EM WHILE THEY LAST!!!


----------



## SunnyQueensland (Apr 1, 2008)

REDLINEVUE said:


> THE NEW ARC's ARE UP and SELLING!!! GET'EM WHILE THEY LAST!!!




Not a very funny April fools joke... But I guess the fool never thinks its funny?


----------



## Crenshaw (Apr 1, 2008)

April Fool [email protected]!

been wanting to say that all day!

sorry, not meant to insult, its a reference to a stand up comedian...anyone hazard a guess who that is?  (5:20)


Crenshaw


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## toby_pra (Apr 1, 2008)

not very funny!:ironic::thinking:


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## Wits' End (Apr 1, 2008)

Checked my email and saw this in my subscription.
THE NEW ARC's ARE UP and SELLING!!! GET'EM WHILE THEY LAST!!!
My heart rate went up I think. And I'm not sure I'm going to buy one :shakehead:


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## toby_pra (Apr 1, 2008)

The new Arc Ls is not available...??????????


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## JohnTz (Apr 1, 2008)

No joking about lights is allowed among flashaholics


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## JohnTz (Apr 1, 2008)

Peter I gotta ask...did those boards show up from the CM yet? Been about 2 weeks.


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## REDLINEVUE (Apr 2, 2008)

Okay... You gotta admit, my April fools day joke was kind-of funny! :twothumbs

RIGHT?... My apologies to all who didn't see that one coming.. but I mean seriously... the New ARC being release on April 1st... C'mon... put two and two together! :thinking: :naughty:

Now, back to the waiting.....


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## JohnTz (Apr 2, 2008)

Peter has gone quiet. That is an excellent sign! Means things are getting built:thumbsup:.


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## mikes1 (Apr 3, 2008)

JohnTz said:


> Peter has gone quiet. That is an excellent sign! Means things are getting built:thumbsup:.


 

Yes I have a feeling things are happening :naughty:

Mike


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## yaesumofo (Apr 3, 2008)

Or not.
Yaesumofo




mikes1 said:


> Yes I have a feeling things are happening :naughty:
> 
> Mike


----------



## JohnTz (Apr 4, 2008)

yaesumofo said:


> Or not.
> Yaesumofo


 There is a nice positive attitude:twothumbs


----------



## toby_pra (Apr 4, 2008)

What is there?!


----------



## yaesumofo (Apr 4, 2008)

Stick around for a while or maybe read this thread in it's entirety for a clue about the reality of this project. 
I was not being negative. I was being realistic.
The NEW ARC-LS has been plagued with delays. The current one is nothing new. 
IMHO Peter should make a single statement to this group along the lines of "it will be ready when it is ready" and then not fuel the embers of hope out here until the light is really ready to go.

Until the light is delivered to those who await it the NEW ARC-LS aka ARC-PD is little more than vapor.
I hope that production is well under way and that delivery is around the corner for those who want one. Bu all appearances once ready the ARC-PD may not be easy to get since there is no waiting list and no dealerships taking pre-orders. It sounds like it will be a free for all when the light does become available...Depending on the price. None of this is bad or wrong it just is what it is. Personally I am very interested in learning where Peter has taken the LS to. Having been a supporter and follower of the ARC saga since almost the beginning, I have numerous samples of the original LS. This was a light which all by itself LED the way for many to follow.
One can only hope for a similar legacy for this new ARC-LS aka ARC PD.
Yaesumofo




JohnTz said:


> There is a nice positive attitude:twothumbs


----------



## JohnTz (Apr 4, 2008)

I guess I'm just a little more easy going and less critical of people who are trying to accomplish something difficult for our benefit as well as their's. 

BTW I have read through this whole thread and the one before it. I know there has been many delays. I enjoy reading about all the challenges one has to overcome to deliver one of these lights.

I also understand that these delays are not good for Peter either. Do you think it is a pleasant situation for him to be in when his investors are wondering when he can ship the light and his potential customers are getting frustrated that they do not have the light yet? Delays cost money. Do you think Peter has the benefit of not worrying about money? The fact is that he is trying to bring to market a state of the art light. It sounds like it will have an incredible electronics package. It will have the best mechanical format out there (the PD rocks) and it will be cheaper than a Ti Pd that Don sells (and built in greater numbers) and therefore more available to more people. It will also be upgradable as the emitters mature without a major effort. All of this is very attractive to me.

So I guess my position is that I would like to have the light today as well as everyone else, BUT I understand the issues and I sympathize with him. I like reading about the challenges as this will make me appreciate the light more when I do get it. I will have more respect for it when I am using it knowing the sophistication of the electronics in it that make it work. I can and will wait. 

I just get a little sad when I see some of the negative comments that get posted. I guess I would say go ahead and try accomplishing this yourself and see how you do. I think we should be supporting Peter, not looking for ways to knock him. Everyone will do what they feel is best at the end. I for one will be checking this thread daily and looking forward to the updates or the eventual shipping announcement of this light.

Sorry for the long post


----------



## jch79 (Apr 4, 2008)

John,

Spot-on. :thumbsup:

-john


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## Groundhog66 (Apr 4, 2008)

The unfortunate delays Peter is suffering through aren't much different than other manufacturers I wouldn't imagine. It's just that when you announce a new product when it is merely still a great idea, frustrations are going to appear sometimes. I just think that the problems this project has encountered would not have been as stressful for Peter if they did not have to be publicized the way they have been. If you are working on perfecting something behind closed doors, and not documented for the masses, things would have gone better. I don't think a thread should be nearing 2 years old to announce a new product......:shakehead


----------



## Grumpy (Apr 4, 2008)

What kind of warranty would the people who purchase one of these lights have?

Maybe one could look at how they are handling customer concerns about the other light that they manufacture to get an idea?


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## yaesumofo (Apr 4, 2008)

As it turns out Peter may NOT be in control of this project. He is merely the designer. He does not have an active position in actually making this project come to fruition.

He has little to do with it as it turns out. According to this:
http://www.cpfmarketplace.com/mp/showthread.php?p=2144398#post2144398

As it turns out well just read it.
Personally I am surprised but this spells out peters position in the company. This did not seem to be indicated in this way in this thread.
IMHO this looks like a situation about to blow up.
Yaesumofo


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## yaesumofo (Apr 4, 2008)

ARC flashlights are supposed to have a lifetime of the product warranty.

People with the original ARC LS are not covered by any warranty.
People who own the original ARC AA and ARC AAA flashlights have no coverage.

Will the company who is listening the ARC name be any better than prior ARC efforts? That wouldn't be difficult since none of the older ARC products (which all shipped with Lifetime warranties) are currently covered.
There is some sort of ongoing offer for owners of the ARC 4. But it is not a warranty.
Yaesumofo




Grumpy said:


> What kind of warranty would the people who purchase one of these lights have?
> 
> Maybe one could look at how they are handling customer concerns about the other light that they manufacture to get an idea?


----------



## olrac (Apr 4, 2008)

yaesumofo said:


> ARC flashlights are supposed to have a lifetime of the product warranty.
> 
> People with the original ARC LS are not covered by any warranty.
> People who own the original ARC AA and ARC AAA flashlights have no coverage.
> ...


 
Right on broham 100% in the lane with this post


sorry had to edit...........look my post number are my favorite engine 327 ...like my old nova! ahhh those were the days!


----------



## Ned-L (Apr 4, 2008)

yaesumofo said:


> As it turns out Peter is NOT in control of this project. He is merely the designer. He does not have an active position in actually making this project come to fruition.
> 
> He has little to do with it as it turns out. According to this:
> http://www.cpfmarketplace.com/mp/showthread.php?p=2144398#post2144398
> ...


Very disturbing. Thanks for the heads up. Definitely makes me a little leery about the Arc-LS/6 :sigh:


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## CPEng (Apr 5, 2008)

I agree that this is a very disturbing development for Arc. I don't think the situation is anyones fault just unfortunate.

That being said I'm not sure that the ArcLS/6 is on a must have list for me anymore if I know it was designed by someone who wants to get out of the industry.

How can the Arc6 be manufactured with any sort of quality when the Arc AAA has so many quality issues of late? The LS is at least an order of magnitude more complex then the AAA. Without Gransee overseeing I'm unsure that the Arc 6 will be up to spec which would be a shame because the design philosophy has been one of the best IMO.

Hoping I eat my words

~CPEng


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## olrac (Apr 5, 2008)

Peter may or may not be on the way out of the "flashlight business", I don't know, but honorable people are honorable and Peter has always been that. With that said I don't think he has been conning the cpf members just to sell a light. There is a saying that goes like this "leopards don't change their spots" and that pertains to good as well as bad, so why would he become his evil twn bother Darth Gransee at this point, joke yes but the kernel of truth is there nonetheless


whoopdee doo basil what does it all mean


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## :)> (Apr 5, 2008)

:shakehead

Goatee is gonna hafta think about this a bit.


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## SunnyQueensland (Apr 5, 2008)

Just wondering if there is any [FONT=times new roman,serif]Artificial Intelligence in this new design? 
[/FONT]


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## mikes1 (Apr 5, 2008)

I hope Peter will chime in to make some sense of all this I for one still realy want an Arc 6. Some sort of definative answer (not just speculation) would be nice

Mike


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## toby_pra (Apr 5, 2008)

Yeah!


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## JohnTz (Apr 5, 2008)

I agree. Until this point I have been defending Peter on this. But I think it would be professional courtesy for him to make some definitive statement on the Arc6. I was about to get the new HDS twisty but cancelled my order for this one. 

Peter if the Arc will not materialize or if there is some bad company news that would impact our purchase decision please let us know to the best of your ability. I still love the concept and would absolutely buy one if it comes to production.



mikes1 said:


> I hope Peter will chime in to make some sense of all this I for one still realy want an Arc 6. Some sort of definative answer (not just speculation) would be nice
> 
> Mike


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## toby_pra (Apr 5, 2008)

Hello Peter!

From me the same words, i appreciate you and your work, but i think
it would be fair to let us know...


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## cave dave (Apr 5, 2008)

Read the link posted earlier. Peter is commited to seeing the Arc6 to production. After that who knows. I doubt he will be around for warranty support.


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## powernoodle (Apr 5, 2008)

cave dave said:


> I doubt he will be around for warranty support.



He has essentially so stated.

Thats sad. When I rule the world, Peter will own and operate Arc and will do so with the same passion he evidenced way back when. I'm a status quo person, and thats the status quo I want.

The Arc we once knew is fading into oblivion, and its just sad.


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## Gransee (Apr 5, 2008)

I go away for a day and look what I find when I get back. And this all from just yesterday. 

Nothing has changed. I told you guys back in 2005 that I was a contractor for the new company. People where asking me at the time if we were owners and I said no. This was important because there were some rumors that a disgruntled creditor might try to tap the new company if it was my property. So we were pretty clear about that.

In addition, I have used the word, "owners" several times in the Arc forum to describe my responsibility to the people with the money. 

Put it together guys. You know that the people with the money are those who are ultimately in control of how it is spent. How much control do you have at your job? Since it is not your money, would you then say that you have very little control at your job? This is no different.

I can and do make recommendations and money is spent sometimes based on those recommendations. I asked them to spend money to provide some sort of support on the old company's products and they did. I told them that this market required a high performance product and it was going to cost money, they approved the funds. But you are right, I am not ultimately in control of the project. What's your point?

And yaesumofo is mistaken. The new company agreed some time ago to provide as much support as reasonably possible for products they did not make. For most of the products this means a store credit (not just on the Arc4, ALL of the products) and for some of the products (Arc-AAA white and UV), this means replacement or spare parts. I keep having to post this over and over. Yet, there are still a few people who either don't get it or don't want to get it. 

If you go to our website, it is not obvious to the casual visitor that the company has changed. If they were to email us and ask for support for a product made back in 2001, we would either offer them a credit, or if possible, spare parts and/or replacement. You can test this for yourself (slow email aside). 

I really want to finish the Arc6 and have it work well. It may not have that luxury. CIS could cancel my contract monday. But if they did, they would be out a lot of money for a product that they have already paid for all the production inventory. Not very smart and not very likely. I wouldn't make that bet. 

I am still waiting on the CM to finish the PCBs, I have already trained the girls on the rest of the flashlight and those sub assemblies are done. This means we have finished retail boxes, tail packs fully assembled (clip, piston, spring, etc), heads with LEDs installed with optics, etc. Just waiting on the PCB. 

After the Arc6 is finished, CIS wants me to stick around and develop more products for them. However, I have other offers that pay more. However again, I would rather start my own business in a completely different field (AI). But Merri would rather I take one of the other offers- less risk. I don't know how this will play out. I could end up staying with CIS until the end of the year while continueing to contract with the other companies at the same time and working on the AI company in my off time (been kinda busy lately for some reason). 

I fully expect that even if I left right after the Arc6 shipped, CIS would not change their warranty that I put in place. I suspect that I won't want to leave right after the Arc6 ships because invariably, issues pop up with a new product and I will feel compelled to stick around and fix them. Depends if I have had enough grief at that point. 

The odds are good that the Arc6 will ship in a matter of months (like my last update said) and I will stick around for a bit to make sure it is working well. I have another revision of the Arc6 already planned and I have asked for funding and tentatively have been approved. However, I will not promise to stick around, I am just saying it is fairly likely since I am a softy for getting things as perfect as possible when I am involved. 

So no changes. My work relationship has not changed and the product plan has not changed. The warranty has not changed. 

Who knows? The Arc6 is made to be easier to mod (not perfect, just a little bit easier). Although I might not be a regular contributor to the CPF at some future point, the Arc6 may have a thriving mod community even more so than the original LS. 

And don't worry, I still like flashlights. The industry wears on me though. I would like to do something different but of course I still would carry a flashlight and go, "wooo" everytime I turn it on.

And again, there is a lot of speculation at this point. Look at my track record and take a deep breath (same advice for me to follow). 

peter


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## iconoclast (Apr 6, 2008)

Gransee said:


> ...
> I would like to do something different but of course I still would carry a flashlight and go, "wooo" everytime I turn it on.



yep, that settles it for me. I would definitely buy (more) flashlights from this person. Despite whatever it is that makes his work day suck, his head is in the right place.
:thumbsup:


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## paulr (Apr 6, 2008)

Peter, one thing is certain, you are a flashaholic to the core (that is intended as a compliment) and you will always be one of us. Even if you end up switching to something other than flashlights as your day job, I hope you will always stick around CPF when the sun has gone down and the flashlights are at play.


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## toby_pra (Apr 6, 2008)

Hello Peter!

Thanks for the words. I like your creations and i think there would be a lot
of people that would buy flashlights wich are developed at your person.

But this is a high risk to do your own things i think....


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## mikes1 (Apr 6, 2008)

Thank you Peter I look forward to ordering my Arc6

Mike


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## cave dave (Apr 6, 2008)

Geesh, I can't imagine why Peter would be sick of the flashlight industry. 

The above was sarcasm. You guys really do run him over the coals sometimes. 
Peter try to understand all the questions, suggestions, debate, etc are all based on a passion for flashlights, the same passion you used to have. I hope that in the future even if you aren't in the industry you will still be a participating member of the CPF, and then you can share your ideas, comments and most especially your *passsion *with other flashoholics, modders and manufactures.


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## Gransee (Apr 6, 2008)

Merri (my wise and lovely wife) said recently that maybe my outlook on the industry is down right now because of the many negative experiences still fresh in my mind (loosing a business, etc). She reminded me that I am passionate about flashlights normally. Growing up as a kid, I would save up my money from mowing lawns and shoveling snow to buy the latest flashlight. Most of them broke, which frustrated me. I kept looking though for the ideal light. My dad also likes flashlights. Maybe it is genetic. And then there's my last name, "gran-see" sounds like I belong in the business of helping people see better. Even though I would like to try other things (I don't think I am using my full potential), I am good at what I do and with the right situation, I may actually have a lot more fun doing it. 

There are long term goals and then there is what I need to do today. I care about the people at CIS and I want to help them as much as reasonably possible. I also want to finish what I started with the Arc6.

peter


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## Sigman (Apr 6, 2008)

I don't envy you're "quest" Peter, however change or even the process of contemplating & analyzing change can render positive results.

Merri sounds very wise...I wish you the BEST & know you're struggle is in Higher hands!


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## maxspeeds (Apr 6, 2008)

Thanks for all your hard work Peter. I am looking foward to the new Arc-LS


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## yaesumofo (Apr 7, 2008)

It is not that I don't get it.
I an glad to be wrong!
The fact remains it is not warranty support. It is replacement or credit.
Maybe I am looking in the wrong place or maybe I am just thick.
But I can't find anywhere on the web site that talks about taking care of old ARC customers products. Nor have I ever seen any Official statement From ARC where is says that the NEW arc will take care of the OLD Arc's commitment to a LIFETIME warranty.
I easily could have missed these things.
We have seen this happen all too often used as a marketing tool.

If the truth is that all of Arc's old customers are covered if they have a problem with their lights all I can is Sorry I was wrong. If that is not the reality can you please spell it out... in a new and separate thread for all of Arc's customers old and new to read?
Really... I am sorry I got it wrong...
Yaesumofo








Gransee said:


> And yaesumofo is mistaken. The new company agreed some time ago to provide as much support as reasonably possible for products they did not make. For most of the products this means a store credit (not just on the Arc4, ALL of the products) and for some of the products (Arc-AAA white and UV), this means replacement or spare parts. I keep having to post this over and over. Yet, there are still a few people who either don't get it or don't want to get it.
> 
> (same advice for me to follow).
> 
> peter


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## Gransee (Apr 7, 2008)

When you purchased the old product, you had a contract with the old company for service. The old arc company died years ago. Everything it promised died with it. This means that they old company no longer can provide you a warranty.

CIS wanted to gain goodwill with the old Arc customers and therefore agreed to invest their money in offering limited support to customers of the old company.

I realize that is not the same thing as if the old company was still providing support but hopefully some people will see it is an improvement over how things normally work when a company dies.

peter


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## toby_pra (Apr 7, 2008)

That sounds fair Peter!:thumbsup:


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## hank (Apr 7, 2008)

> AI

I've bought flashlights from you.

I'll have no hesitation buying a brain from you.

Go for it!


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## GlockDoc (Apr 7, 2008)

Peter, I have 5 of your lights, 3 from the 'old' company and 2 from the 'new'. I will not hesitate to buy more as long as they prove to be durable and bright.

You have to do what's best for YOU. Millions of people get up every morning and go to a job they don't like. Don't be one of those people! Do whatever it takes to make you and Meri happy, because nothing else matters more.

Just be sure to stay in touch with us here.

Bob


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## JohnTz (Apr 7, 2008)

This is all great and maybe we found out some things that may sway our purchasing decision of the Arc 6, but the real questions remain: 

Peter, did you get the boards yet from the CM? Do they work and can you start sharing the specs of the finished light? Can you finally tell us the price? And most importantly when will they ship? 

Or is the whole project at standstill, do to the elctronics?

Come on man. Some of us are putting off other EDC purchases to wait for your light. Help us out. You will sell them no matter what. Just let those of us who have been waiting know so we can do what we need to do. 

It would be a good way to get this whole mess back in the right direction.


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## Xygen (Apr 8, 2008)

> Peter, did you get the boards yet from the CM?


As Peter said in post 705, he's still waiting for the boards...


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## Gransee (Apr 9, 2008)

It was on my list for this week to send the CM a certified letter notifying them that the PO was in breech and that I would be taking the boards to another shop. Today, I was suprised by a phone call from their president telling me that they completed the PNP assembly by hand for some of the boards. They are ready to make a partial delivery with the balance delivered later. They finished enough boards that I should be able to proceed to the next step with the first 100 serialized units. What remains before they can ship is the original hand work (attach sw ring, kilroy, etc) and final integration with flashlight head. I sent out an RFQ today for this work (originally the main CM was going to do this work but they now don't want it so I am looking for other suppliers). 

One of my friends pointed out that I should have taken a harder track with them since they did sign the original PO. But I have decided a compromise in consideration of the large amount of work they have done so far is sufficient. They looked at the boards and the extensive materials/literature I provided for 3 weeks before agreeing to the PO. This is not their first rodeo so they can't say I somehow forced them to take on a job they couldn't complete. This company is used to working with complex boards for military radios, etc. They have provided boards for us for years and never had any problems like this. Experience doesn't always guarantee success. 

At any rate, this registers as progress. Little and late but progress nevertheless.

I expect that the new quotes will be significantly higher. My projections show that the finished PCBs are going to be much more than originally estimated. There are some different strategies that could be employed on the next revision, if that were done, that could bring the costs back down.

peter


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## jch79 (Apr 9, 2008)

Thanks for the update, Peter! :thumbsup: Sounds encouraging! Will you be posting here when the first 100 are complete, or will they randomly be put on the website?

john


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## SunnyQueensland (Apr 9, 2008)

jch79 said:


> Will you be posting here when the first 100 are complete, or will they randomly be put on the website?
> 
> john



+1


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## Gransee (Apr 9, 2008)

I am estimating that there will likely be another update or 2 here. When the product is completed however, things will come together pretty quick. They will offered on the website at that time. first come, first serve. 

peter


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## Gransee (Apr 9, 2008)

Sorry, let me try being more clear. When the product is ready to sell, I will turn on the website, make sure it is working and then make a post on the CPF with a link, as I have done in the past. I will try to provide as much advanced notice as possible, but I cannot promise that this will satisfy everyone's requirements. There will still unforuntately be people who are unhappy with the process, no matter how I do it simply because there is not enough product when they want to buy.

peter


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## SunnyQueensland (Apr 10, 2008)

Hi Peter,

Can you at least limit the number in which someone can order? It would be unfortunate if someone bought large quantities for resale. Not that a CPF member would do it but at the moment it would be possible right? :mecry:

Thanks and can't wait... 

SQ


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## Crenshaw (Apr 10, 2008)

I really hope ill be able to get my hands on one, dont really care if its not in the first 100...:candle:

Crenshaw


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## toby_pra (Apr 10, 2008)

I also hope that i get one from the first batch...


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## Gransee (Apr 10, 2008)

Got a quote for the final hand work on the PCBs from the shop that made the prototypes. Expensive, but I know they can do it. 

peter


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## jch79 (Apr 10, 2008)

Peter, 
I just sent you an email about something. :wave:
john


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## JohnTz (Apr 10, 2008)

Gransee said:


> Got a quote for the final hand work on the PCBs from the shop that made the prototypes. Expensive, but I know they can do it.
> 
> peter


 

expensive, expensive ,etc.....what are you going to do beyond the first 100 or are these so complicated that they all have to be built by hand?


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## Gransee (Apr 11, 2008)

All of them will have to be built by hand. Yes, very expensive. 

I got a quote back on the final hand work. Reasonable. Started the contractor yesterday. Might have finished pcbs in 2wks.

peter


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## ViReN (Apr 12, 2008)

Gransee said:


> All of them will have to be built by hand. Yes, very expensive.
> 
> I got a quote back on the final hand work. Reasonable. Started the contractor yesterday. Might have finished pcbs in 2wks.
> 
> peter



Peter, I know nothing about manufacturing SMD PCB's, what ever little I know is about standard component based PCB's, so please consider this as a naive question.

If the PCB's with SMD's are built by Hand, wont there be a factor of human error, will reliability be a concern in future? I believe machines are more accurate in this regard especially when it comes to SMD components placing and soldering....isn't it?


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## Stillphoto (Apr 12, 2008)

I agree about the "to err is human" aspect Viren. That said I figure there's probably some aspect of the build that just can't easily be done by any machines out there, otherwise I'm sure Peter would have gone with it.


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## ViReN (Apr 12, 2008)

Stillphoto said:


> I agree about the "to err is human" aspect Viren. That said I figure there's probably some aspect of the build that just can't easily be done by any machines out there, otherwise I'm sure Peter would have gone with it.



You are right Stillphoto. But I am still wondering, Peter must have thought about manufacturing process well in advance, since this is going in to be a production flashlight rather than a custom flashlight. It's taken almost 2 years designing... it would feel silly if this aspect is not taken care of already...

While designing PCB I am sure he must have thought to make it in such a way that it is easily repeatable for mass production....

I think, going in for a hand built PCB's will add more personal touch for the first 100 lights, making them special... more like custom light...

Other way I think is Peter opted for Hand built PCB's because the mass produced PCB's would take time, there may be long lead times for this... further delaying the light...


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## darkzero (Apr 12, 2008)

SunnyQueensland said:


> Hi Peter,
> 
> Can you at least limit the number in which someone can order? It would be unfortunate if someone bought large quantities for resale. Not that a CPF member would do it but at the moment it would be possible right? :mecry:
> 
> ...


 
+1


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## olrac (Apr 12, 2008)

-1

let capitalism rule, sez me, ahg ahg ahg ah


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## toby_pra (Apr 13, 2008)

Yes please limit it...that would be more than fair Peter!:thumbsup:


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## gjg (Apr 13, 2008)

oops


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## gjg (Apr 13, 2008)

+1 on that. It would be great to see the 1st 100 in the hands of fans of your lights, not a couple of profiteers looking to make a quick buck.
gg


toby_pra said:


> Yes please limit it...that would be more than fair Peter!:thumbsup:


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## toby_pra (Apr 13, 2008)

:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:


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## Drywolf (Apr 18, 2008)

Any updates Mr. Gransee?


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## this_is_nascar (Apr 18, 2008)

Drywolf said:


> Any updates Mr. Gransee?



10-posts ago, 1-week ago, Peter said this:

_All of them will have to be built by hand. Yes, very expensive. 

I got a quote back on the final hand work. Reasonable. Started the contractor yesterday. Might have finished pcbs in 2wks.

peter_

Doing the math, you're a week early in asking for an update. :devil:


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## Drywolf (Apr 18, 2008)

Thank you Mr. nascar. 

Any week early update/s?


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## Gransee (Apr 23, 2008)

Waiting for a test to complete, time for a quick update.

Got the first set of completed boards last week. Started assembly of flashlights last friday. By monday, had 16 units assembled. These are hand made units, assembled by me. Trained the techs yesterday on some of the steps. Now up to 20 units. I am now running these units through various tests. Right now, temperature fallback; which will probably take the rest of the day. 

Btw, I want to disassociate any notions people may have that this first run is a mass-manufactured, established product like they would buy from the local store. These units are hand made (mostly with my hands), each is different, the design is very new and the first customers will essentially be beta testers. Yes, it is currently being beta tested, but that is not the same as putting them out in the wild. 

Most people will not be buying this product for awhile. Some because they want to wait until everything is completely proven and stable. But even most of those people couldn't buy it anyways simply because there is not enough to go around. The primary limiting factor is the supply of K2TF LEDs we are using. I still have not received anymore from the mfg. So what I have is all we have.

As a result, I really prefer that only the right kind of flashlight lover buy the first run. There is not a lot of units available so each paring of owner and flashlight should be optomized. 

Although my goal usually is to manufacture volumes above a custom builder so as to make a more consistent and affordable product, this initial offering will be very much a "garage" production. 

I going to ask that people limit their orders to 1 per person. Since we can't edit orders, we may just delete orders that violate this. If you are ordering for your brother and for yourself, we want to accomodate if possible. It just not easy to cut and dry in each circumstance, so I ask that you contribute some control on your part. 

I am currently projecting that we may be able to ship by the end of May. Things left to do are to finish assembly, finish the firmware, testing, website changes and supporting literature.

I expect that price and output figures will be available once the testing it complete. The testing measures a significant sample size to prove the minimum performance capabilities of the design.

peter


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## REDLINEVUE (Apr 23, 2008)

*WOW.... sounds like we're really close!! I can't wait!!*


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## hank (Apr 23, 2008)

I never thought I'd want to pay to be a crash dummy, er, beta tester, but .... my wife's not reading this, is she?


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## REDLINEVUE (Apr 23, 2008)

hank said:


> I never thought I'd want to pay to be a crash dummy, er, beta tester, but .... my wife's not reading this, is she?


 
*She wasn't.... but I have since forwarded her a copy of this post... seeing as I get yelled at almost daily about my watches and flashlights, If i'm going down, Im taking you with me!! lol*


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## darkzero (Apr 23, 2008)

Gransee said:


> These units are hand made (mostly with my hands), *each is different*, the design is very new and the first customers will essentially be beta testers.


 
In what aspects will they be different?


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## Gransee (Apr 23, 2008)

darkzero said:


> In what aspects will they be different?



I have spent a lot of time with them so I can see small differences in anodize, beam pattern, switch feel, etc. 

btw, still testing the temperature fallback. Long day. More than half way through the set for this test. Each unit should fall back at around 115-125F (housing). It then should fall back to a level that reverses the climb in temperature. 

peter


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## toby_pra (Apr 24, 2008)

WOW i cant wait anymore!


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## mikes1 (Apr 24, 2008)

Hi Peter

Thanks for the update I would be more than happy with just one LS6 but I would like both tail pack types will this be available for the first run?

Thanks

Mike


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## Stillphoto (Apr 24, 2008)

Sweet.


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## smokelaw1 (Apr 24, 2008)

End of May???? That's only a little over a month away! 
I can not wait!! 

I just hope I am in front of the PC and watching when thwey are released. 
I look forward to being one of the proud first owners!


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## BentHeadTX (Apr 24, 2008)

I should not be excited
I should not be reading this thread
I don't "do" CR123A lights
AAA/AA light up the nights
But I'll be a flashaholic till I'm dead

It is fun to peer into the future, gaze into the crystal ball
To see the last hurray in Peter's mind
Glancing at my wallet and pondering to damn it all
Thinking of being a Beta tester and I will find
Will I be slitting my throat by hanging out at the bleeding edge?

For now...


----------



## Crenshaw (Apr 24, 2008)

for the price...thats the determining factor as to whether i buy this or not.....

Crenshaw


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## toby_pra (Apr 25, 2008)

:huh: common...only a few weeks :shakehead


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## SunnyQueensland (May 7, 2008)

I guess all is going well Peter? :wave:


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## Gransee (May 9, 2008)

quick update:

Last 2 weeks have been spent assembling production units, lots of testing, make changes to the code, etc. We are now at the point where all the heavy stuff has been moved and we are down to the small odds and ends. I hope to have a release candidate for the firmware next week. Still looks like we can ship by the end of the month barring any major problem.

peter


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## Codeman (May 9, 2008)

:thumbsup:


----------



## FrogmanM (May 9, 2008)

Glad to hear that everythings coming along nicely Peter!

Mayo

Thx for the update


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## N162E (May 9, 2008)

How about some pictures. Let us see what this little gem looks like.


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## Cuso (May 9, 2008)

N162E said:


> How about some pictures. Let us see what this little gem looks like.


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## N162E (May 9, 2008)

Let me rephrase. How about some pictures of the current ones being built.


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## Drywolf (May 10, 2008)

Read the thread. This is a picture of the current one's.


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## FrogmanM (May 10, 2008)

From left to right: torch #2 5 and 7 are the new models

#7 is the sleeved version w/ Ti Clip, 2 and 5 are unsleeved.

hope this helps... _(PD's rule! no better KISS UI!)_

Mayo


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## FrogmanM (May 10, 2008)

N162E said:


> Let me rephrase. How about some pictures of the current ones being built.


 
oops...now I understand what you're asking... Production pics of the lights being built correct?

Frogman


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## N162E (May 10, 2008)

Drywolf said:


> Read the thread. This is a picture of the current one's.


I have read the thread, for over a year and a half now when it was in its sixth revision. Let me rephrase my rephrase. I would like to see some of the lights that are being built right now. I have asked for pictures many a time during this thread only to have some "Fanboy" chime in with a best guess answer. I would like to see Peter himself show us whats coming. I've held off on other purchases waiting for the Arc 6. Waiting for a firmware release!! HUH? Show your hand Peter, its time.


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## N162E (May 10, 2008)

FrogmanM said:


> From left to right: torch #2 5 and 7 are the new models
> 
> #7 is the sleeved version w/ Ti Clip, 2 and 5 are unsleeved.
> 
> ...


Those were posted in December. It was never said that they were the final product or even the design. Weve heard about beta testers but never a word from one of them. Then we here a broad statement fromPeter saying that he can't find any quality machine shops, What a crock of a statement that was. Now the big wait is for a releaseable firmware candidate? This is a flashlight, not a trip to mars.


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## N162E (May 10, 2008)

FrogmanM said:


> oops...now I understand what you're asking... Production pics of the lights being built correct?
> 
> Frogman


Yes sir. Thank You.


----------



## SaturnNyne (May 10, 2008)

I'd rather like to see that too. Maybe a few quick photos of the inventory of lights and parts, a shot of the pieces that compose them, etc. Not beauty shots, just a quick glimpse of what's cooking.


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## FrogmanM (May 10, 2008)

Peter, the natives are restless! "show me the money!" ...please...

Mayo


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## Fathom (May 10, 2008)

Got my tax rebate yesterday. 
The amount and timing are auspicious
(or is it suspicious?)


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## toby_pra (May 10, 2008)

yeah....


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## SaturnNyne (May 10, 2008)

Fathom said:


> Got my tax rebate yesterday.
> The amount and timing are auspicious
> (or is it suspicious?)


That was my very first thought when they were announced a few months ago, "ah perfect, so that's how I might justify getting the LS..." Hope mine arrives soon. Thanks, Uncle Sam.


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## Drywolf (May 10, 2008)

N162E said:


> "Fanboy"


 
Fan"boy" Having seen the half century mark come and go, I'll take this as a compliment.

:lolsign: 

Thank you Fanman, per your signature. :^)


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## N162E (May 10, 2008)

Drywolf said:


> Fan"boy" Having seen the half century mark come and go, I'll take this as a compliment.
> 
> :lolsign:
> 
> Thank you Fanman, per your signature. :^)


LOL!! I did have that coming.  :whoopin:


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## N162E (May 10, 2008)

SaturnNyne said:


> That was my very first thought when they were announced a few months ago, "ah perfect, so that's how I might justify getting the LS..." Hope mine arrives soon. Thanks, Uncle Sam.


I hope you see your incentive check AND your LS-6 soon!!


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## Crenshaw (May 10, 2008)

for the price point still...:candle:

Crenshaw


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## Freedom1955 (May 11, 2008)

N162E said:


> Those were posted in December. It was never said that they were the final product or even the design. Weve heard about beta testers but never a word from one of them. Then we here a broad statement fromPeter saying that he can't find any quality machine shops, What a crock of a statement that was. Now the big wait is for a releaseable firmware candidate? This is a flashlight, not a trip to mars.



Ya lets see the lights. It only takes a minute to snap a shot and post it.:nana:


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## SaturnNyne (May 11, 2008)

But it takes many minutes for Peter to take a break from the many other more important things he's doing in his life, visit cpf, take care of any other business here, see our requests, go take photos (he might not even be anywhere near the stock of production units, he'd likely be visiting here from home), post them here... plus it's the weekend and mother's day.

We've been better lately, let's not go back to being pests. Our requests have been made, Peter will see them and respond to them whenever he gets a chance. Or he won't. Either way is fine, we've all waited a long time and the wait is almost over, let's just be glad of that. Patience, kids, we're almost there.


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## Cyclops942 (May 11, 2008)

N162E said:


> Weve heard about beta testers but never a word from one of them.



No, you just didn't recognize them when you saw them.

Post #763, shots 1 and 2, contain accurate representations of the product.



N162E said:


> Now the big wait is for a releaseable firmware candidate? This is a flashlight, not a trip to mars.



Seeing as this is what really makes the Arc6 different from the rest of the herd, perhaps you could be a little more patient.


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## N162E (May 11, 2008)

Cyclops942 said:


> No, you just didn't recognize them when you saw them.
> 
> Post #763, shots 1 and 2, contain accurate representations of the product.
> 
> ...


I sincerely hope you are right on all of the above. Still, it would be nice to see some actual production pictures.


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## Crenshaw (May 12, 2008)

SaturnNyne said:


> But it takes many minutes for Peter to take a break from the many other more important things he's doing in his life, visit cpf, take care of any other business here, see our requests, go take photos (he might not even be anywhere near the stock of production units, he'd likely be visiting here from home), post them here... plus it's the weekend and mother's day.
> 
> We've been better lately, let's not go back to being pests. Our requests have been made, Peter will see them and respond to them whenever he gets a chance. Or he won't. Either way is fine, we've all waited a long time and the wait is almost over, let's just be glad of that. Patience, kids, we're almost there.


+1

Crenshaw


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## yaesumofo (May 12, 2008)

With the slight change of additional flutes in the tail area the light looks remarkability like a McGizmo mule. The head looks shorter than the "stock" pd head.
The interesting thing here is that the McGizmo design DNA is far more present than the "ARC DNA" Is the ARC DNA under the aluminum ...In the firmware? Funny thing about that is there never was any real firmware functions in the original ARC LS. It was pretty much a On and OFF light which ran too hot most of the time.

So we have a McGizmo designed flashlight with some unknown driver. we don't have any real specs yet and we have not seen an official shot of a production unit. (I know we have seen a couple of these lights with serial numbers and they could well represent the production unit.

Now the McGizmo light that this Body's design is based on runs about $300. 00 that is a custom short production flashlight. The New gold standard (to some) McGizmo Lunasol 20 runs $500.00 It is made from titanium and Don made 30 of them.
Since this is NOT a custom flashlight it is a production flashlight and it has similar features (presumably) to current production lights LIKE the Novatac and HDS EDC and other current production flashlights. I can't see this light costing a penny more than $190.00 unless it is bringing some extremely new and cool technology to market. (like what? being sensitive to temperature and throttling down to maintain a "safe operating temperature doesn't do it for me to be frank since today's more efficient emitters and well designed efficient drivers operate without getting hot unlike the ARC LS for example. Focusing a whole lot of programming energy into over temperature protection into a flashlight is really a waste of time IMHO) This is no ($279.00) Surefire *Optimus *(arguably the most advanced production flashlight coming to market this quarter).
IMHO If the ARC 6 is priced above $200.00 it will be easy to find and there will be no shortage of them on the market to those willing to pay a premium for a light with nothing really new to make it stand out among the current crop of single cell flashlights.

So when will Peter announce a price? Likely when he has a product to sell.
So just keep waiting. Good things will come to those who wait. Will they be affordable is the question.
There will be a fine line between pricing the ARC PD to sell.... loosing money... making money... and staying in business.... 
I hope it all works out so the company can stay in business and an affordable light is produced.
Remember how the Novatac sold well for a while and then the price went up? I suppose the price hike was put on so the company could start making money on the product...or making more money. We all should know that the prices of EVERYTHING have gone up including products which utilize lots of energy top make (like things made from aluminum and titanium.... rubber and sapphire.
Yaesumofo


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## SaturnNyne (May 12, 2008)

yaesumofo said:


> Funny thing about that is there never was any real firmware functions in the original ARC LS. It was pretty much a On and OFF light which ran too hot most of the time.


Yes I agree with you that the original LS was designed in 2001. Isn't it nice that the new one doesn't have the same limitations.



yaesumofo said:


> a light with nothing really new to make it stand out among the current crop of single cell flashlights.


I really like the design of the PD. It's like a more pocketable L1 with the twist at the front for easier underhand use, nice. Evidently a lot of others like the design too. The Arc6 is pretty much a PD, except better. That's definitely something I would love to have, so can you please point me to another currently produced single cell flashlight that is a PD, but better, and cheaper than the Arc?


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## Crenshaw (May 12, 2008)

i want a PD, but at something like $300 dollars being considered "cheap" i can only hope the ARC is more affordable..

Crenshaw


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## SaturnNyne (May 12, 2008)

Crenshaw said:


> i want a PD, but at something like $300 dollars being considered "cheap" i can only hope the ARC is more affordable..


Well I don't think anyone is suggesting that $300 is "cheap." In fact, it's _insanely_ expensive. Fortunately, many of us here are insane.


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## toby_pra (May 12, 2008)

> SaturnNyne*Re: The new Arc-LS*
> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Crenshaw*
> 
> ...


 
+1 :thumbsup:


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## Crenshaw (May 12, 2008)

SaturnNyne said:


> Well I don't think anyone is suggesting that $300 is "cheap." In fact, it's _insanely_ expensive. Fortunately, many of us here are insane.


no, i know no one is suggesting $300 is cheap, it isnt, but i just saw a PD go for $350 i believe, and sold only closer to $300, so in a way...$300 is "cheap" or rather "cheaper"

either way, if the new LS is going to cost $300, whats to stop people for getting a Mcgizmo, or a surefire Invictus..thats what im thinking, because arc does have Fantastic products, i still love my old LS, which,cos im so late in the game,i only got awhile ago, and im collecting Battery tube by Battery tube...but i sure hope the Arc6 will at least be within reach...:candle:

Crenshaw


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## xcel730 (May 13, 2008)

Wow, I cannot believe I spent the last few hours reading from page 1 to page 27. This is certainly not "light" reading (all puns intended). I think for my efforts, I should automatically get the Arc LS. 

I'm really glad I didn't get involved with any custom flashlight until this month. The Arc LS is very sweet light, and from what Peter said, it should be releasing by the end of this month ... so only a couple of more weeks to go. If I had followed this thread and waited from the beginning, I would have gone mad. I guess part of owning an awesome flashlight is the anticipation ... much like waiting for a year or two for a custom knife.

I have to admit it is quite nice to see the Arc LS from conceptualization to realization. I'm holding back on all flashlight purchases until this light materializes. I guess it's ramen noodles for the next couple of weeks.


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## SaturnNyne (May 13, 2008)

Crenshaw said:


> no, i know no one is suggesting $300 is cheap, it isnt, but i just saw a PD go for $350 i believe, and sold only closer to $300, so in a way...$300 is "cheap" or rather "cheaper"


I saw a PD-S go for $250 a couple weeks ago. I wonder how much of an effect the impending release of the Arc is having on the value of the aluminum PDs. Maybe a lot of people just want a real, custom McGizmo and don't care about price/value, but it certainly can't help the secondhand value of a light that is essentially the same but with less power/versatility/technology. And yet I'm still there in custom bst drooling over every al PD that passes by... what a strange allure they have.


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## yaesumofo (May 13, 2008)

Keep in mind these are used PD's.
Don's current production of flashlights are made from Titanium and are dual level dual beam flashlights. They cost around $500.00 and are of very limited production at the moment.

The point I was trying to make was simple.
The ARC PD flashlight could easily be priced too high for success. and too low for profitability. Peter's company will have to use extreme caution when pricing the light.
If priced over $200.00 that would be a price which I would considder to be TOO HIGH for a non custom single cell flashlight WITH OR WITHOUT the Piston drive.

Like it or not not everybody likes the PISTON DRIVE. It is a twisty with a non latching switch. I would hope that Peter has designed the firmware to latch ON OFF and to be able to access other features via the PD. 
The reason the PD concept may not be as popular as it could be is the amount of force required to activate the light using the PD. It requires more force than a stock clicky. This alone can be enough to put some people off.
Personally I have no problem with the system. I activate my PD's 90% of the time by twisting the light.
I am interested to see what Peter does with what amounts to the KISS interface of the PD in the ARC VI.

The proof is in the pudding as they say . Well it is also in the bottle the 190 proof white lighting stuff is hard to find.
Yaesumofo




SaturnNyne said:


> I saw a PD-S go for $250 a couple weeks ago. I wonder how much of an effect the impending release of the Arc is having on the value of the aluminum PDs. Maybe a lot of people just want a real, custom McGizmo and don't care about price/value, but it certainly can't help the secondhand value of a light that is essentially the same but with less power/versatility/technology. And yet I'm still there in custom bst drooling over every al PD that passes by... what a strange allure they have.


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## paulr (May 13, 2008)

SaturnNyne said:


> I really like the design of the PD. It's like a more pocketable L1 with the twist at the front for easier underhand use, nice. Evidently a lot of others like the design too. The Arc6 is pretty much a PD, except better. That's definitely something I would love to have, so can you please point me to another currently produced single cell flashlight that is a PD, but better, and cheaper than the Arc?



I don't know about "better", but the L1 is probably quite a lot cheaper than the Arc will be. I don't even know what "Better" means. A Casio G-shock is a better watch than an Omega Speedmaster Professional in every quantifiable way (accuracy, ruggedness, features) and the Omega is about 50x more expensive and people keep buying them. 

I haven't felt much desire for a McLux PD as big an admirer I am of Don's designs (I do hanker after a Lunasol if I can lower my other expenditures enough for it). I have two Mules (a Ti PD and an Aleph McClicky) and I love them and I've been carrying the Aleph every day for weeks, something I rarely do with any non-keychain light. For directional beam 123 lights, at the high end, I think the Spy 005/007 is much nicer than any of the tube shaped lights; and at the low end, the P1CE from that Chinese company wins for simplicity and compactness at a fraction of the cost. Basically light buffs are going to buy the Arc6 for the same reason watch buffs buy Speedmasters. As a light buff and Arc fan but as a non-frequent directional beam user (i.e. 2 out of 3) and given that I already have a Spy, I follow the Arc6 program with some interest but I don't see my current financial situation as likely to result in my getting one, at least an early one.


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## Robocop (May 13, 2008)

I have to agree with Paulr here in that mostly the collectors and hard core Arc fans will buy the new LS. It will no doubt be a nice light however honestly there are many nice lights in the single 123 form to choose from these days. I have to wonder just how much of total Arc sales we here at CPF amount to. I can not imagine the average customer or even Military or LEO buying the LS if it does indeed come in at 300 dollars. ( or even 250 )

I mean think about it....even a professional who needs a duty tool or say even a hard core adventure type guy will probably not consider the LS at this cost. So I am really curious as to where the bulk of LS sales will come from and it stands to reason it will be most likely be many old fans such as us here. Then you also have to factor in the chance that Mr. Gransee may not even be a part of the Arc future lines and sad to say this may also sway some of the otherwise loyal fans.

Again I have to agree with Paul in that even as a loyal fan and owner of many past Arc products the new LS may be simply out of my reach. I also hate to say it however I said it long ago that the new LS may have simply been over thought or even over developed. Lets face it Mr. Gransee could have made almost anything and called it an LS and many would have jumped all over it. I kind of think maybe he really did wish to bring something out long ago and this new company ,with controlling interest, was responsible for all the delays and changes. (just my thoughts only)

So now here we are after years of waiting and much pondering I feel much of the Arc craze has slowed down a little. Man I so wish for the old days when there were seconds available and the current LS was simple and easily available as well. I really want Arc to continue as again I am a supporter and user of many Arc products however with soaring costs and a different company entirely at the controls will Arc ever be available to the average fans anymore?

Sadly I do understand as to the costs involved and I also know that Mr. Gransee demands perfection. The PD design is really an incredible design and I was actually thrilled to see it used on the new LS. I was not thrilled however to see so much other costs involved and to watch slowly as the new LS slipped away to ony be had by a select few.....well at least those with the ability and courage to pay whatever it meant to have one.

So maybe we can get a ball park figure here....lets just assume the new LS is somewhere around 300 dollars. If so just how many of us here will actually really buy one? I hope it will be enough to allow the effort to be a success however if it is not does the new company have enough other funds to offer future products of the Arc name......in other words if the new LS fails will there continue to be the AAA versions or will the company fall completely?

It has to remind me of the SF Titan......I have always wondered if SF sold enough of those very high priced items to cover the effort of bringing the product out. I believe even if they took a loss on that model their other sales could take up the slack and lesson learned they continue on. Not many smaller companies can make mistakes such as that and continue on. Does any here feel the Arc line will continue with other products and maybe offer a AA or even continue the AAA products?


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## SunnyQueensland (May 13, 2008)

Hey guys...

If you refer to post #17 *here* it states:



xiayi said:


> Did any one notice Peter himself guess the price will be between 200 to 250?



I think we can assume it will be between these two figures.


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## Robocop (May 13, 2008)

you are correct as to past estimates by Peter himself however he is very careful not to even lock down any figures as he knows many things can happen to force costs up.

In recent posts here he has stated problems with PC board designs and manufacturing is more expensive that planned. He even said "much more" expensive in one post and made sure to let us all know just that. I do not believe any here will fault Peter for the cost of the final product however it is the major factor in many of our decisions to either buy or not buy. 

This was my point in saying maybe it was simply over developed and could have been released long ago on a more simple (yet still Arc quality) level. Maybe simply tweaking the old design and updating a few things such as emitter,reflector,output or whatever to compete would have made a huge difference in costs.

Regardless that is another topic entirely and this thread is about the new LS so I am in support of the current design. I have kind of read between the lines as we all should be able to do. Many statements have said recent things have happened that were forcing costs up so honestly we should not be shocked to see a higher price on this light.


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## tricker (May 13, 2008)

Robocop said:


> It has to remind me of the SF Titan......I have always wondered if SF sold enough of those very high priced items to cover the effort of bringing the product out. I believe even if they took a loss on that model their other sales could take up the slack and lesson learned they continue on. Not many smaller companies can make mistakes such as that and continue on. Does any here feel the Arc line will continue with other products and maybe offer a AA or even continue the AAA products?



I believe the AAA will continue on since peter has that part of the company pretty well set up.....peter has mentioned leaving very soon so if there are any problems with the LS I would say production will be shut down, with no chance of newer products(if he leaves)......i personally would rather see a AA than the Arc6(as AA is closer to the bread and butter of the company) but i hope i am proved wrong and this whole thing is a great success


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## McGizmo (May 13, 2008)

Let me throw in 2 cents here. Peter has always been adamant about a light's size and EDC potential. He has also listened to his idea of what a light should be even at times when his followers were asking for something else. If Peter put market demand first and foremost, I believe we would have seen a high power LED based light from him a couple years ago and not been waiting so long for the "next" offering.

It seems that in electronic devices, there is always a premium to be paid in size reduction. Although there are obvious similarities between the new Arc LS and the PD's I have made, the Arc LS is significantly smaller and packed with more "brains". The Arc LS is what it is or perhaps I should say it will be what it will be. Will it be a success in Peter's eyes? Will it be a commercial success? I for one have no idea. What is friendly in the pocket is not necessarily friendly in the hand but if it is not in the pocket one can not get their hand on it. Although not so friendly in hand, for some, the original Arc LS was a marvel for others by virtue of its unique, small footprint. The new Arc is different than any other light in some regards. What simply remains to be seen is the intrinsic and perceived value in those differences and how they equate to price. I would guess that for some, price is on no import and for others, the elasticity is so great that the slope, in and of itself, is most critical. 

IMHO, a light is best judged in hand and in use and not in a photograph. At this point, we have photos and speculation and really no substance from which to conclude.


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## Robocop (May 13, 2008)

Yes you are very correct in saying a size reduction in electronics is always expensive. Once again we are reminded of another reason this light will be expensive. Peter has never said it would be cheap and we can all stop hoping for the 100 dollar LS models from years back. This light has been one of the most thought out and developed I have seen in a long time and over the years the costs have surely grown....and it is not yet even available.

I can not help but wonder if this LS would have been the same style if Peter had full control and would have never had to start over. Yes I remember Peter defending his idea of a true EDC and he kept his design the same for years as it was what he considered to be perfect. Having said the things he did it seems I remember him saying a true EDC should be reliable and simple. I know he was sold on the single 123 for power and the current levels were kept within spec for a reason. He was also big on heat control and again keeping the current low enough to avoid problems.

The brains in this new light are indeed complicated and yes very much modern however is this what is needed these days to compete? I say it again it is possible to make a simple and reliable design and still compete. I may be wrong but I always thought the Arc was most famous for simple and effective......even while other makers were adding bells and whistles. It is easy to see that the more complicated and developed the higher the costs. This light is indeed modern and developed highly so we can all expect a premium in costs.....simply no way around that.

Those who can afford it will buy it however a good many will want it and not be able to have it....again no way around that. The old LS lights were expensive even way back then but not so expensive that the average person could not have one. They were at a sweet spot in price and could be had if you really wanted one. With all the talk of expensive parts and design I have to believe this light will be very costly and rightfully so however none the less it will be out of reach for many even if we try to save up for it.

I imagine if it were possible to offer both the new LS for 300 and maybe an updated version of the old style LS for say 100 dollars. It is easy to see Arc would probably sale many more of the 100 dollar lights as it is simply all the average man needs for an EDC. I do agree with keeping up with technology however only if you can afford to take a loss or in the very least if you have something else to sale to make up for the loss.

So I am asking Mr. Gransee if this new version is indeed your true idea of an EDC and if you were in full control would you have done it any differently? I ask that simply out of curiousity and also because I wonder if you ever did consider a more simple and cheaper design?


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## cnw4002 (May 13, 2008)

Expensive does not necessarily mean quality, it just means expensive!


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## BentHeadTX (May 13, 2008)

What is an EDC light?
Fundamentally, it is a light you always have on you...it is a natural like taking your keys and wallet with you in the morning. For me, that is a single AAA light that has at least two levels: low/low for looking for things in the dark and not waking my wife up. The other is a 40 to 60 lumen high for walking around and seeing things at a distance. 
Guess what? I have that type of light already as my LF2X is programmable for what I need it to do. If I need a spare cell, the Eneloop AAA is located in my Peak Baltic SP SSC on my leatherman Charge Ti side pocket. The Baltic puts out screaming output, very simple twistie and I can beat the hell out of it (and have) with no problems. 
The new LS is an amazing light...that uses the wrong cell! For me, AAA is the best so I can use Eneloops, lithium AAA cells or...if I need to, the AAA alkalines in the remote. Welcome to the world of the Cree Q5 LED.... AAA keychain lights can use the latest tech and be programmed for the users needs. 
My greatest hope is for Arc to use the "trickle down" theory and a new Arc AAA Q5 (R2, R3 etc) to use the latest in Arc magic. CR123A lights are not my thing and I don't use them anymore. 1xAAA, 1xAA and 2xAA rolling Eneloops is what I use...period. 
The market is changing and I hope Arc ports the LS electronics to the Arc AAA...with the monster output of a Cree Q5/R2 bin and AAA sized lithium-ions out...you can have the light that meets 98% of your needs on the keychain. If you need more, they make bigger lights to meet output/runtime requirements. 
For now, the LF2X on my keychain and Baltic SP in my leatherman Charge Ti side pocket meet my needs. I give away my CR123A batteries...I don't use them anymore. 
Waiting for a Cree R2/Luxeon RB100 Arc AAA that runs from 0.8V to 5V...


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## Robocop (May 13, 2008)

Benthead I agree 100 percent as far as the AAA based light being a better choice personally for EDC. I have an Arc AAA and Fenix LOD that ride comfortably on my keyring daily and as such are always with me thus my EDC choice.

I believe that Mr. Gransee is clear on his personal choices and opinion of EDC and has been for a long time. I applaud him for his determination and as long as he chooses to remain with the 123 cell light he really made it work for many people. I have 4 of the older LS style lights and love each one of them for what they are. My point I was trying to express was that Peter has said many times he feels the single 123 light is the best choice for EDC. Now there is no question as to what size/battery style he likes however I am curious as to what features and functions he would choose if he could start all over today with his own design and no others to have any input.

I may be wrong but I always thought he preferred simple one level lights that were ran in spec for long term reliability. From what I recall the original LS was what he considered the perfect form light for EDC. If anything I could see maybe changing to a reflector or different emitter and maybe just maybe a 2 level of high low light. I did not ever imagine Mr. Gransee going to a complicated design with all this development as it seems to go against what he once considered a true EDC.

Now I can see how he chose the PD design as it falls right in with his thinking in the past. The PD is simple,reliable and proven thus it works well for an EDC. Imagine the old LS with a Cree or Seoul and a nicely matched reflector and the reliable PD tail design....perfect EDC I would think.

The more I look at the light I really do like the actual look of the light. The more I read about it however I become discouraged as it seems it is getting more expensive to produce.


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## Gransee (May 13, 2008)

Tried to get here earlier but my number one priority right now is keeping the Arc6 on track. I want to go back and read everyone's posts completely when I have more time. I will try to post a pic or two of the lights in various stages of production. One other thing, I am seriously considering putting the first 100 on ebay. I know, we have talked about the pros and cons of using ebay before. I do sympathize with both views. But I am seriously thinking about it. More about this later..

peter


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## SaturnNyne (May 13, 2008)

yaesumofo said:


> Keep in mind these are used PD's.
> Don's current production of flashlights are made from Titanium and are dual level dual beam flashlights. They cost around $500.00 and are of very limited production at the moment.


Yep, as I said, the _secondhand_ market for aluminum PDs, nothing else. Any influence on values will have little/no effect on anything Don is currently producing. I don't think the lunasol is in any way comparable to the Arc aside from the switch used.



yaesumofo said:


> The ARC PD flashlight could easily be priced too high for success. and too low for profitability. Peter's company will have to use extreme caution when pricing the light.


I completely agree with you. I don't think there will be any trouble selling the limited first run to us nutters, I'm willing to spend considerably more than I've ever spent for a light (and far more than I think is truly sensible to spend on a pocket light), but I'll still only pay so much, crazy and senseless or not. We're no longer in the age of $240+ HDS Ultimates. An HDS costs $165 today, NovaTac's EDC Ultimate equivalent can be had under $140. At the price that's been hinted at for the new LS, I'm worried it could end up being a tough sell for a non-custom, non-trendy-material-fetish (since what titanium it does use is limited and mostly functional) light.



yaesumofo said:


> It is a twisty with a non latching switch. I would hope that Peter has designed the firmware to latch ON OFF and to be able to access other features via the PD.


That's an interesting thought. So you mean an option you could enable that would allow the momentary switch to be used like a clicky? That would be really nice. I guess it would latch on at low if you quickly pressed and released to low, same for high, pressing to high while latched on low would kick it up and vice versa, and a press to whichever level it's latched at would switch it off. Add in a timing-based momentary like we have on our EDCs and that would be a pretty great interface, though far too fussy for many users.



yaesumofo said:


> The reason the PD concept may not be as popular as it could be is the amount of force required to activate the light using the PD. It requires more force than a stock clicky.


I've never had the opportunity to try a PD and hadn't considered that, though it had occurred to me that the bare metal momentary button could be uncomfortable for me since my thumbs seem to be longer than is ideal for the actuation of most momentary buttons. That could especially be a problem with the guarded tail (which seems the more desirable style, to me). The pressures required for the Arc6's PD are around 2lbs for low and 6lbs for high, definitely seems high now that I consider it. However, a momentary button is just that, the pressure required wouldn't be a deal killer for me, I'd just be happy to have a multi-stage forward twisty with the option of the usual momentary at the rear, whether stiffer than ideal or not.



yaesumofo said:


> I am interested to see what Peter does with what amounts to the KISS interface of the PD in the ARC VI.


Me too now, though it's probably far too late to be making suggestions to Peter. It will at least have the optional virtual stage added, a clever advancement for those who want it.





paulr said:


> I don't know about "better", but the L1 is probably quite a lot cheaper than the Arc will be. I don't even know what "Better" means. A Casio G-shock is a better watch than an Omega Speedmaster Professional in every quantifiable way (accuracy, ruggedness, features) and the Omega is about 50x more expensive and people keep buying them.


There's no probably here, we know what an L1 costs and we have a good idea of the range for the Arc, it will be more than twice as expensive (at least at our discounted price for an L1). Better means that the Arc6, provided it's everything it's promised to be, is exactly a PD with a slightly smaller head. In addition to that, it has new features added that many would find highly desirable but it does not force them on you. Assuming it's about as durable and well-made as the original (which it should be considering the price bracket we're looking at) and the electronics don't have any bugs that seriously compromise it (hopefully won't after all the time that has been put into development), I don't see how this light could be anything but "better" than a light that is virtually identical but with less of what most would call "good stuff." (Unless you're Kiessling, of course. )



paulr said:


> For directional beam 123 lights, at the high end, I think the Spy 005/007 is much nicer than any of the tube shaped lights; and at the low end, the P1CE from that Chinese company wins for simplicity and compactness at a fraction of the cost.


Hm? I think those are very different lights for very different tastes. The Spy (brilliant light...) is very high end, the P1CE is pretty low end, what about the middle ground where the Arc should fall, the slightly less very high end?



paulr said:


> Basically light buffs are going to buy the Arc6 for the same reason watch buffs buy Speedmasters.


I don't know watches, but based on your description I'd say that's only partly true. Certainly some are attracted to the prestige of Arc, some are collectors looking to add the new model to their shelf (especially with the first run), many will be the hardcore long term Arc supporters, some (like me) like the form and physical design and would pay for whatever advantage such little details offer them, some (also like me) will be interested in buying because Peter is a good guy and deserves to be supported, but this is not a case of an inferior product selling for more money. Or is your parallel intended to suggest that the Fenix is a superior light? I don't think many here would find the P1 superior, whether in features, ruggedness, or timekeeping accuracy... 
(I assume you actually mean that the Speedmasters do have some kind of less tangible quality that makes them appealing to a niche market. In that case, I'd say it's a good comparison to the Arc.)





BentHeadTX said:


> What is an EDC light?
> My greatest hope is for Arc to use the "trickle down" theory and a new Arc AAA Q5 (R2, R3 etc) to use the latest in Arc magic...you can have the light that meets 98% of your needs on the keychain. If you need more, they make bigger lights to meet output/runtime requirements.


If we look at the Flashlight Classifications section of the FAQ on the Arc site, they (Peter?) give their own definitions of EDC which are a little more precise than what we typically use around here:


> Every Day Carry (EDC)- most convenient. Lights designed to most likely be with you and working during emergencies
> EDC - Pocket - Lights designed for general everyday use


So they do recognize that both are distinct from each other and have their own advantages and disadvantages. For now, they're taking care of the EDC-P. Hopefully, they'll next turn their attention on the EDC-MC that you prefer. What you describe would indeed be a pretty killer light and it would fill a conspicuous hole in the american-made flashlight market right now.

Whew, that was a lengthy one. Good to see so much discussion in this thread after the quiet period we had!

Edit:


Gransee said:


> One other thing, I am seriously considering putting the first 100 on ebay.


Whoa. A bidding war could certainly throw a wrench in a lot of our buying plans.


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## xcel730 (May 13, 2008)

:huh:  No!!!! Don't eBay them!!! :thumbsdow


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## BentHeadTX (May 13, 2008)

True...Robo...true,
Peter has his thoughts on the Arc AAA keychain light and the Arc EDC light. However, the original Arc LS punched out maybe 15 to 20 lumens from one CR123 lithium cell. It NEEDED the 3.0V lithium cell to put out the lumens required for an EDC. 
Times have changed with smaller keychain lights punching 40 to 60 lumens easily. Why must we continue the lumen war? There are two camps, one is lumens at all cost to include the CR123A cell...the other is small size using those AAA sized lithium-ion cells. The flashaholics do battle on the forum and we benefit.
However, if I want to send a light as a gift...then things get nasty. AAA/AA spoken only please. Fenix grew into a monster from one little light, the L1P running a Luxeon R bin from a single AA battery. Then they rolled out the L0P to mixed reviews since it would not run an alkaline AAA cell very well at all. This begat the L1D and L0D multi-level lights and they have been running away with it ever since. 
My most used lights are a LiteFlux LF2X (AAA keychain) Peak Baltic SP (AAA leatherman holster) Fenix L1D Q5 (bike helmet light) and Fenix L2D RB100 (mountain bike handlebar light) Have two lights that run on CR123A or CR123 3.6V lithium-ion. I consider them "cheater" batteries and they languish on the shelf. 
My four most used lights cost a grand total of $215 and run on Eneloops very well. My HA-III 2D Mag with strike bezel will be running a KD Q5 Cree with Aspheric lens fed by 3C cells for my throw monster. Even my Peak First Responder runs 3AA since CR123A is just a pain in the butt to deal with. 

Please Peter...mix the goodness of the Arc LS, McGizmo PD and Arc AAA together for the ultimate keychain light. The keychain light done right....


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## BentHeadTX (May 13, 2008)

Ebay the first 100?
Upside is it lets Peter know what they are worth as the market will determine that.
Downside is the Arc faithful will feel burned as the first 100 will sell out even if it was a CPF only special. 

Either way, the first 100 are gone and I won't have one.


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## Crenshaw (May 13, 2008)

+1 to yaesumofo's post..

SunnyQueensland, was that post before or after the one where peter said the boards were driving (no pun intended) the price up?

I honestly am not worried about the first 100, i just want to be able to ge one, even after the first 100,...after all,the emittors are going to be pretty easily replacable right?

Crenshaw


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## Stillphoto (May 13, 2008)

I understand the ebay idea, I just am sort of bummed by it. I actually have funds currently and would like to be able to just buy out outright, not having to wait for an auction to close. I guess that might be a bit selfish but oh well.

Still looking forward to getting one though.


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## SunnyQueensland (May 13, 2008)

Gransee said:


> The first batch will be sold from our website. A thread on the CPF will not be used to reserve your order. I will make a post here on the CPF announcing the website is live. To reserve a unit, you will need to signify your firm interest by placing an order. We will not charge your card until we ship. We also accept paypal.
> 
> We are not taking orders yet. I will announce here on the cpf once the website is ready.
> 
> peter



:shrug:



Gransee said:


> Sorry. As my wife says, I am cranky. Its because the PCBs are delayed. And I have answered the question several times. I even did give an estimate awhile back. 2 of them if I recall. I said, "expensive" and "somewhere over $200". I have also told people $250+. But I am not estimating anymore until I have finished product in my hand.
> 
> peter



:shakehead Nevertheless, I still want one.




Crenshaw said:


> SunnyQueensland, was that post before or after the one where peter said the boards were driving (no pun intended) the price up?



Two weeks after it looks like... :thumbsup:

This has been going on a long time, I agree, and maybe if I was following since the very start I too would be jaded over how long its taking... But luckily I'm still enjoying the ride.


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## HoopleHead (May 13, 2008)

BentHeadTX said:


> Ebay the first 100?
> Upside is it lets Peter know what they are worth as the market will determine that.


 
although the CPF flashaholic market bidding them up on ebay doesnt necessarily equate to the general target market once its in full production. unless they are intended to be one and the same...


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## Drywolf (May 13, 2008)

I never pay too much for anything on EBay. That’s because I research the item I want and I know a good price to pay for it. If the bidding gets too high, I just bow out.
Will ARC let a trusted member of CPF to do an extensive review on the ARC6 before the bidding begins, seems like a good move? If not I’ll be on the sidelines and wondering if ARC has any plans to make more than the first 100?


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## Ned-L (May 13, 2008)

Gransee said:


> One other thing, I am seriously considering putting the first 100 on ebay.
> 
> peter


Just doesn't feel right any longer.  After watching and waiting patiently for a long time - "considering putting the first 100 on ebay" seems cold and impersonal, not what I would expect from a special, non-marketplace production. Doesn't seem to be in the spirit of CPF, at least not as I perceive it. I am unsubscribing from this thread after this post.


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## paulr (May 14, 2008)

A bit of a followup to my previous post, which may not have come across as I intended:

Of course I don't think the P1CE is comparable to the LS6. It's just a good value in a cheap light for those who buy lights for their functionality, like a Casio digital is a good cheap functional wristwatch. I'm expressing more of a view that those of us who buy higher end lights buy them for other reasons than pure functionality. It's the same thing with watches (Speedmaster), pocket knives (Sebenza), etc. With flashlights though, I see constant attempts at rationalizing expensive flashlight purchases in utilitarian or functional terms. That doesn't happen when someone buys a Sebenza or Speedmaster. They generally buy them for pure appreciation and enjoyment (collectability only enters into it some of the time) and don't try to explain it to themselves in different terms. Maybe that means the art of quality flashlights isn't yet mature enough that people feel comfortable with enjoying it for its own sake like they do with knives or watches. It's starting to get that way though. I see how happy the Spy 007 buyers are and they're not the least bit concerned whether their light emits a few more lumens or less than the current Chinese digi-gizmo light.

For me, using a Spy or McLux or Arc is just like taking a short glimpse into a world of perfection. Life sucks, my landlord is obnoxious, the program I'm working on has bugs, and an important envelope just fell under my couch. But when I look for the envelope by using my Ti PD Mule, I'm just entranced by the beauty of its wide uniform beam and the feeling of the titanium in my hand, and all that other stuff stops bothering me for those few moments. What it cost isn't terribly important then. Once you've got the rent and basic costs of existence covered and something stashed for a rainy day, a few hundred more bucks in the bank is just bits in a computer, while a really nice flashlight makes all the other hassle worthwhile whenever you use it.

That said, there are different tastes in knives, watches, etc, just as with lights. I'd like to own a Sebenza (and a Speedmaster) someday but don't feel likely to ever buy some huge Busse camp knife or a blinged-out Rolex, even if I win the lotto.

With flashlights, Don realized something that I think is only beginning to get recognized on CPF, which is that at close distances, wide beams are much more useful than narrow beams. And in my personal usage pattern, almost all my flashlight use is indoors, so my lack of excitement about the Arc6 and the McLux PD is that they are missing a (to me) very important feature, namely a wide beam. The Lunasol is the only expensive pocket light that I still lust after much these days. I also am not the one to be saying the Spy is better or worse in usability than the PD (or Arc6) in directional lights since the truth is I haven't been using it that much. That's not a diss against the Spy or any of the other directional lights either, it's just that (as already said) I'm more into "wideangle" lights than "telephotos" these days, and I got the Spy mainly because of its unique styling and uber-intuitive UI.

As for the Arc6 pricing, it sounds like it will be in the $200-300 range, which to my personal financial picture says "a bit out of the impulse buy level, but below the heart-in-throat range", i.e. I could pull the trigger without too much angst if it were a type of light I really wanted, but I can't quite afford to do it just for the sake of having the latest model. I don't see it in terms of comparison shopping against other lights, so I don't think I'd react much differently whether it ends up $200 or $300. If I had to decide carefully between the Arc6 and a PD, it would be because I'm an aficionado of that type of light (narrow beam 1x123), and for that reason would probably end up buying both (maybe not at the same time). I'd be WAY interested in an Arc6 follow-on with wideangle capability but it's more important to get the initial version out first.

As for other models like AAA's with Crees, there's a whole separate and long thread about that, probably best not to drag it over here. I -did- finally order an AAA-GS now that the bugs are apparently out of it, and it would be great to have an AA companion for it. But, of course the Arc6 will have to get all the development attention til it's out the door and working.


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## SaturnNyne (May 14, 2008)

paulr said:


> For me, using a Spy or McLux or Arc is just like taking a short glimpse into a world of perfection. Life sucks, my landlord is obnoxious, the program I'm working on has bugs, and an important envelope just fell under my couch. But when I look for the envelope by using my Ti PD Mule, I'm just entranced by the beauty of its wide uniform beam and the feeling of the titanium in my hand, and all that other stuff stops bothering me for those few moments. What it cost isn't terribly important then ... a really nice flashlight makes all the other hassle worthwhile whenever you use it.


That is simply beautiful.


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## Edwood (May 14, 2008)

Ned-L said:


> Just doesn't feel right any longer.  After watching and waiting patiently for a long time - "considering putting the first 100 on ebay" seems cold and impersonal, not what I would expect from a special, non-marketplace production. Doesn't seem to be in the spirit of CPF, at least not as I perceive it. I am unsubscribing from this thread after this post.



QFT.

I wouldn't want to spend that much money on a wannabe McLux PD either way. :thumbsdow

Let the shil.....er bidding begin!!! :thumbsup:


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## yaesumofo (May 14, 2008)

Don It is obvious that the HEAD is smaller in the ARC VI design.
Is the Body of the light smaller too? It looks to me in the images that I have seen that ONLY the head is smaller (shorter).
By how much?
What is the Overall length of the light?
Diameter?
Thank you.
Yaesumofo



McGizmo said:


> Let me throw in 2 cents here. Peter has always been adamant about a light's size and EDC potential. He has also listened to his idea of what a light should be even at times when his followers were asking for something else. If Peter put market demand first and foremost, I believe we would have seen a high power LED based light from him a couple years ago and not been waiting so long for the "next" offering.
> 
> It seems that in electronic devices, there is always a premium to be paid in size reduction. Although there are obvious similarities between the new Arc LS and the Pd's I have made, the Arc LS is significantly smaller and packed with more "brains". The Arc LS is what it is or perhaps I should say it will be what it will be. Will it be a success in Peter's eyes? Will it be a commercial success? I for one have no idea. What is friendly in the pocket is not necessarily friendly in the hand but if it is not in the pocket one can not get their hand on it. Although not so friendly in hand, for some, the original Arc LS was a marvel for others by virtue of its unique, small footprint. The new Arc is different than any other light in some regards. What simply remains to be seen is the intrinsic and perceived value in those differences and how they equate to price. I would guess that for some, price is on no import and for others, the elasticity is so great that the slope, in and of itself, is most critical.
> 
> IMHO, a light is best judged in hand and in use and not in a photograph. At this point, we have photos and speculation and really no substance from which to conclude.


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## kitelights (May 14, 2008)

Come on now, Paul. A big part of that warm fuzzy satisfaction that you get using a quality high end light is *because* of how much it costs.

You made what others would consider a 'crazy' purchase, but when you use it, you're reminded why you made a good decision.

BTW, I am jealous.....


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## paulr (May 14, 2008)

kitelights said:


> Come on now, Paul. A big part of that warm fuzzy satisfaction that you get using a quality high end light is *because* of how much it costs.
> 
> You made what others would consider a 'crazy' purchase, but when you use it, you're reminded why you made a good decision.


Probably right, at least part of the time. Same thing happens though when I go outside on a starry night and it's absolutely quiet, which costs nothing, though it's extremely hard to find because of all the different noise sources everywhere. Or when I write or run really clean computer code...



> BTW, I am jealous.....


 I remember telling someone a while back that I am richer than Bill Gates. I got laid off from a job and got a termination payment that let me buy a new pair of hiking boots and a backpack and just travel around and visit places for about 3 months. This cost about $3000 total and was actually cheaper than sitting around the house for the same amount of time, since I moved out of where I was staying, so I didn't have to pay rent and that covered a lot of the travel costs. Bill G. (at least back then) could never have afforded to stay away from Microsoft for that long. The stock would have collapsed if he did anything like that...

Seriously, I have two high-end lights (Ti PD Mule and Spy 005), a handful of midrange ones (Aleph Mule McClicky, Peak Pacific Ti, etc) and a lot of lower cost ones, but I remember figuring out that my total flashlight expenditures over 5 years is about equal to a midrange laptop computer, something well within the discretionary spending capacity of most nerds. I don't think one can buy a decent home theater system for that. I have no home theater (in fact no TV set at all, and therefore no monthly cable bill, no DVD's, etc.) and in that context, overall, this flashlight obsession is not all that expensive in the scheme of things.

Anyway, sorry if this has gotten off-topic for the LS6... maybe it's of some relevance anyway though, because the pricing discussion touches on who buys lights like this and why...


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## Isak Hawk (May 14, 2008)

Ebay would be a dealbreaker for me :shakehead


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## Robocop (May 14, 2008)

I have to say the E-Bay thing has me puzzled as well. It is still unknown if I will purchase the new Arc and as such where or how they are offered may not effect me....regardless it does seem strange to me at least from a fans point of view.

As a business strategy maybe it makes more sense to get as much profit from the first run as possible....however it also makes me wonder if this is because there may not be a second run planned. Most likely the buyers even on E-Bay will be members here anyway. I am still curious as to why this seemingly last minute decision was mentioned.

I say last minute decision without knowing if this is so however it now makes me curious if this may have been the plan all along. Again if it was it is entirely the right of the maker to sale wherever he chooses. It makes one wonder however if this is why no price has been quoted even this late in the game...if the plan was to sale on E-Bay I would not lock myself into a price either. 

The E-Bay option could pay off big time however it sounds a little risky as well. If enough profit is made on E-Bay the second run will come faster and maybe later prices could come down on the Arc site with direct purchases available to those who do not wish to bid and just buy at a set price. The risk as I see it is certain wealthier members will drive the prices up on the first few then half the lot is left hanging....plus it sounds as if the E-Bay strategy may turn away other loyal fans.

Good luck with whatever you choose and keep us posted as to further developments....we are all curious.


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## PhantomPhoton (May 14, 2008)

:thumbsdow for Ebay.
I want an Arc-PD but not _that_ much. Especially for the first 100. I could understand maybe the first 10 for the die hard Arc nutters out here; give them a chance to get one a week early or something.


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## ibcj (May 14, 2008)

I realize that the Ebay idea is a thought at the moment, but I hope that it doesn't happen. I won't buy one from Ebay and it will likely prevent me from buying one alltogether.


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## Crenshaw (May 14, 2008)

Peter, can you confirm that there WILL be lights beyond the First run? i really want one based on past experience with your products...

Crenshaw


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## litetube (May 14, 2008)

I have been following this thread for a long time myself now. I just got hooked on the looks/design since I first saw the pics. 

I have 2 theories (just my ignorant opinion) on the ebay possiblity

1) Henry/arc really dont know what to charge for these lights. So much time/effort has gone into them how do you put a price on it? So letting the market decide in tru capitalist fashion is a viable option to consider
2)Henry is a tad annoyed with CPF? I have noticed about 70% of the posts in this thread have become very critical/negative towards this new Arc light. 
I would bet money on one thing though, regardless of where these limited number of lights are sold, EVERY ONE of them will go in a day guaranteed regardless of the price.


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## jch79 (May 14, 2008)

litetube said:


> 1) Henry/arc...
> 2) Henry...



Litetube - I think you meant to say Peter, not Henry? :thinking:


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## Cuso (May 14, 2008)

Robocop said:


> I have to say the E-Bay thing has me puzzled as well. It is still unknown if I will purchase the new Arc and as such where or how they are offered may not effect me....regardless it does seem strange to me at least from a fans point of view.
> 
> As a business strategy maybe it makes more sense to get as much profit from the first run as possible....however it also makes me wonder if this is because there may not be a second run planned. Most likely the buyers even on E-Bay will be members here anyway. I am still curious as to why this seemingly last minute decision was mentioned.
> 
> ...


+1 , I seriously doubt prices will come down after an Ebay bid war, though. This is what the whole ebay thing is about, trying to set a market price. I don't c any other reason in such a move, when you already have a set website with shipping and payment options. Why would you want to collect fees on a 100 lights??


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## xcel730 (May 14, 2008)

I think if it's going to go on eBay, most likely it'll be us CPFers bidding against each other. I don't see many average person who are willing to spend more than $50 on a flashlight.


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## JohnTz (May 14, 2008)

Ned-L said:


> Just doesn't feel right any longer.  After watching and waiting patiently for a long time - "considering putting the first 100 on ebay" seems cold and impersonal, not what I would expect from a special, non-marketplace production. Doesn't seem to be in the spirit of CPF, at least not as I perceive it. I am unsubscribing from this thread after this post.


 

+1


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## mikes1 (May 14, 2008)

I realy realy want an Arc 6 but I will not buy one off ebay

Please dont do it Peter

Mike


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## Edjusted (May 14, 2008)

I may be putting words in Peters mouth here, but it seems like e-bay may be the only "fair" way to release the first 100. First come first serve just means that the 100 luckiest people will get one, not necessarily the 100 that want it the most. At least on e-bay, the people who want one bad enough to pay for it will get that opportunity. 

My suggestion: 

Put 50 on ebay. 

25 go into a lottery system where people agree to pay for the light at retail cost if they are chosen. Open up the sale for maybe a 6 hour period, then pool all those names and draw 25 out of a hat. 

With the other 25, at some random point, open up a sale on the website, the first 25 people to find it and place orders get a light.

That should hopefully cover everybody: Those with money, those with luck, those who neither but love to refresh a web page


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## this_is_nascar (May 14, 2008)

I've tried to remain low-profile with this entire Arc-LS thread as much as possible, however it's reached the point where I must say something, if for no other reason, than to get it off my chest. And for those of you who will PM and E-Mail telling me to leave CPF again, keep my my shut, etc, all I can say to you is screw-you.

I've been disappointed and against the Arc-LS ever since I learned of the physical design. It's a hopped-up PD pretty much. Nothing more, nothing less. For some, that's a good thing. For me, I think it sucks. Peter threw all his creativity and design ability out the window with this light as far as I'm concerned. He hooked up with Don (I'm assuming, based on the design) and thought he'd get this LS out the door quickly, in a design that others seemed to have embraced. Not only have they embraced it in a cult-like fashion, they've paid big bucks for this simple 2-stage light (PD). Peter must have figured he could add some gizmos, fancy electronics, etc and make a killing on these (an already established platform). What Peter actually did (in my opinion) is sell-out by taking an already existing platform, adding some bells-and-whistles to it, slapping an Arc logo onto it and intend to sell it at a premium price. Again, this is all my opinion. Throughout the months of delays, he sees the speculation of pricing, etc and realizes that what he had in mind is not in-line with what he's been reading from others. Still not wanting to publicly state what he wants to charge for the light, he figures he'd throw them on eBay and let those Arc/PD cult-like CPF'ers go to town bidding like hell on these lights. Assuming they all sell for an average of $xxx, he now knows what to charge to the "public" or better yet, knows they won't make the desired profit he's looking for, so production stops and you never see a 2nd batch.

I think it's a huge slap in the face to put these 100-units on eBay for a bidding war. It's an insult to CPF and a knife in the back of those who have been anxiously waiting on these (of which, I'm not one of them). Peter, how dare you go so low as to basically flip the middle finger to those who have supported you and gotten you to the point in which you are.

What saddens me the most is that there will be people, despite being screwed-over, that will support this product by paying huge $$$ for it from eBay. Peter, somewhere along the way, you've lost yourself. You've lost your values and even worse, you're now trying to take advantage of your past/current supporters. Good luck in life.


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## Blue72 (May 14, 2008)

Putting them on ebay?!?!

I waited a long time for this. This sucks.

I saw what colored LED AAA went for, when ARC put them on ebay.

I was willing to pay $200-$300 for this light. But I will not bid on ebay for an ARC product again.

This is tacky, I will buy something else.


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## olrac (May 14, 2008)

this_is_nascar said:


> I think it's a huge slap in the face to put these 100-units on eBay for a bidding war. It's an insult to CPF and a knife in the back of those who have been anxiously waiting on these (of which, I'm not one of them). Peter, how dare you go so low as to basically flip the middle finger to those who have supported you and gotten you to the point in which you are.



I agree it does seem like that to me as well. I hope that it is only venting frustration with some of the posting that has gone on here, if not, :thumbsdow


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## datiLED (May 14, 2008)

An Arc LS6 on e-Bay? :sigh: Peter, _please_ don't do it.

When I think of e-Bay flashlights, I think of the 9 LED cluster lights powered by 3-AAA cells. 1 cent for the light, and $6.99 shipping.


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## Daekar (May 14, 2008)

I don't know why everybody is worked up about the Ebay thing. As has already been noted, it's the only fair way to do the first 100, since there seems to be so much demand. Those that want them the most, get them first. It would be foolish to suggest that there wouldn't be more than 100 lights produced after all the time and money Peter and Arc have invested in the design, so given that there will be more than 100, all you're getting by bidding higher is time. If you want them first, bid higher so you get it first. If you don't want it earlier badly enough to pay more for it, then it sounds fair to allow those that DO want it badly enough to pay more for it the opportunity to do so. The new Arc WILL be for sale through the Arc website eventually... it makes no sense to sell a production light any other way.

@ TIN:
I don't agree with you, but I'm very glad you feel like you can still express your opinions, regardless of what some other people say! I can feel the outrage through the screen...


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## this_is_nascar (May 14, 2008)

Daekar said:


> I don't know why everybody is worked up about the Ebay thing. As has already been noted, it's the only fair way to do the first 100, since there seems to be so much demand. Those that want them the most, get them first. It would be foolish to suggest that there wouldn't be more than 100 lights produced after all the time and money Peter and Arc have invested in the design, so given that there will be more than 100, all you're getting by bidding higher is time. If you want them first, bid higher so you get it first. If you don't want it earlier badly enough to pay more for it, then it sounds fair to allow those that DO want it badly enough to pay more for it the opportunity to do so. The new Arc WILL be for sale through the Arc website eventually... it makes no sense to sell a production light any other way.
> 
> @ TIN:
> I don't agree with you, but I'm very glad you feel like you can still express your opinions, regardless of what some other people say! I can feel the outrage through the screen...



There's only so much demand because a price has not been provided as of yet. Once the price is released, let's see how many of those 100 units can/will sell.

How can you be sure that it WILL be for sale onthe Arc website?

Time and money into the design? Time, certainly, but money, maybe. There was certainly not much creativity put into the product. I'd also question the cost. How much of this light is just re-badged PD parts?


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## EricMack (May 14, 2008)

Based on past history, why is anyone the least bit surprised?


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## tricker (May 14, 2008)

i don't understand everyone's anger....nobody is forced to buy this light, and no doing so will be a better expression of your true feelings rather than demeaning someone's personal work....though everyone has a right to their opinion I suspose, would you rather it be a McGizmo 1 minute post-a-thon?(which i feel is even more exclusive)


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## McGizmo (May 14, 2008)

All that really matters is the light itself. Until it is available we have nothing of substance. If it initially comes to us via EBay or specially marked CrackerJack boxes, so be it.

The heart and soul of the new Arc LS can not be viewed by seeing a photo of its package because what counts is within and this has been Peter's focus all this time.


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## Groundhog66 (May 14, 2008)

First 100 on Ebay, what a HUGE kick in the balls for all you who have followed this process for the past years. As far as I am concerned, giving the initial run to the Ebay hounds pretty much sums up where Peter's loyalties lie.......and it doesn't seem to be with the members here who have given him the MOST support in his endeavors. Good luck with this first release Peter, I know I certainly will NOT be buying one of these over hyped lights from an unappreciative maker.....:thumbsdow


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## smokelaw1 (May 14, 2008)

May I take the unpopular position of saying let's wait to see if the lights actually are released on ebay before we call for Peter's head on a stake? 

Peter had said that he would post here and then they would hit the Arc site. If this is what happens, and the lights are somewhere CLOSE to the originally guessed price range (though Peter never locked it down, and has warned numerous times that things have gotten expensive), then no harm, no foul as far as I am concerned. 

Now, IF the lights are put out on Ebay, and the people who seem to be the #1 supporter's of Peter are seemingly cut out of the first 100/the process, well, then I might join you all in the harshness.


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## Groundhog66 (May 14, 2008)

As far as I am concerned, even SUGGESTING it is close enough. If he was the hero we all THOUGHT he was, there would NEVER be a question who the initial release would be dealt to......


And before someone states the obvious, I KNOW we are free to bid on these lights when they are on Ebay......but that is hardly the point is it.....


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## PoliceScannerMan (May 14, 2008)

I have no dog in this fight, although I enjoy the drama, I have one thing to say...

If I was a betting man I would bet that all of you saying "Ebay!! @#$%, I will not buy one.", will eventually buy one. :nana:


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## Groundhog66 (May 14, 2008)

PoliceScannerMan said:


> I have no dog in this fight, although I enjoy the drama, I have one thing to say...
> 
> If I was a betting man I would bet that all of you saying "Ebay!! @#$%, I will not buy one.", will eventually buy one. :nana:



:shakehead


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## mraymer (May 14, 2008)

I'll toss in my long winded opinion also...

The bad feelings about putting these on eBay is quite simple. First come, first serve is the most equitable solution. Putting them on eBay does two things. First, it pits brother against brother here in outbidding each other to get one. What this accomplishes is setting a very high bar for the price of these lights. The secondary fallout from this is that any future runs, if there are any and are sold on the ARC website, will most likely be priced in line with what they sold for on eBay - which will be an inflated price because of the limited quantity and high demand on the original offering

I'm upset over it because I have money saved for the ARC6, hopefully it's enough because price has been a guess to this point. I've passed up several other lights that I would have liked to have purchased, knowing that if I spent my savings I wouldn't be able to get the ARC6. Now, if these go on eBay, I know I will not be able to afford one because I'm positive I don't have as much money to bid on one of these as some of the others who have more discretionary funds at their disposal. And I know that if eBay bidding wars push the price sky high, that when and if, a second run is made and placed for sale on the ARC website, they will be most likely priced in line with the inflated eBay prices that were set with the original run. And again, the light will be outside of my cost range that I can comfortably afford.

If I can't get one, I would rather it be because I wasn't one of the first to place an order as opposed to not having more money available to throw away than other CPFers. If these were customs or one-offs, like the colored AAA's that were put on eBay, I wouldn't have a big issue with it. But if this is supposed to be a production light, then eBay is not the way to go. I now feel like the colored AAA led lights and now the ARC6 are being put on eBay in limited numbers to get an inflated price for them and any subsequent runs as well. Another issue is that originally it was said that only 1 light would be available per person to ensure as many as possible could have one. With eBay, a single person could bid and win on every light, provided they had enough cash. 

Instead of cutting the pie up and ensuring everyone gets a piece, we're all being thrown into a pit and told to kill one another - last man standing gets a piece.

:thumbsdow


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## PoliceScannerMan (May 14, 2008)

Groundhog66 said:


> :shakehead



Especially you!


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## skalomax (May 14, 2008)

On another note, I hope these don't go on Ebay. Maybe Peter needs to regain some of the money he lost during the process?


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## tnuckels (May 14, 2008)

Please tell me I’m dreaming, or rather having a nightmare, and that I’m going to wake up to discover that the Arc LS6 is ready, reasonably price, and not for sale on eBay. 

This has GOT to be some sort of sad, cruel joke … unless perhaps they will be up for “buy now” sale, as opposed to a general auction. An open auction of this sort would be an ugly spectacle; a bloodbath akin to the coliseum, pitting CPFer against CPFer. Unless everyone can manage to keep their head about them and not overpay … but there’s always one weak link, and then all hell breaks loose. That, and then you run the price up, and up, and up, till you think you’ve got it, only to be sniped out of your coveted item by some robo-bidding software that offers a penny more with 0.5 second left.

What are you getting at, Mr. Gransee? Please tell me there is some redeeming logic behind this latest suggestion that has managed to elude so many of us.


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## paulr (May 14, 2008)

this_is_nascar said:


> There was certainly not much creativity put into the product. I'd also question the cost. How much of this light is just re-badged PD parts?



Ray, that's just not accurate, the LS6 is completely different from the PD under the skin. The styling and UI are similar (though not identical). The implementation has no resemblance whatsoever, The LS6's levels are controlled by a microprocessor, for crying out loud! The PD has completely mechanical switching. It's like saying no innovation has gone into a hybrid gas-electric car, because it looks similar on the outside and has a similar steering wheel to a traditional gas-only model. Building the hybrid took a massive amount of new engineering even if it's not immediately obvious to someone simply driving the car. I've stated my own reasons for not being terribly excited by the LS6 (mainly its lack of a flood beam), but saying it's a repackaged PD or doesn't contain innovation is just bogus.


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## maxspeeds (May 14, 2008)




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## maxspeeds (May 14, 2008)

Ned-L said:


> Just doesn't feel right any longer.  After watching and waiting patiently for a long time - "considering putting the first 100 on ebay" seems cold and impersonal, not what I would expect from a special, non-marketplace production. Doesn't seem to be in the spirit of CPF, at least not as I perceive it. I am unsubscribing from this thread after this post.


 
putting them on ebay may have some dollar advantages, but from a consumer standpoint, you will lose alot of the CPF following.


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## schiesz (May 14, 2008)

skalomax said:


> Maybe Peter needs to regain some of the money he lost during the process?



I guess i'm confused by this whole ordeal. I thought, until recently, that ARC was Peter's company. Now we all know that is no longer the case. Peter says he no longer has control over the decisions of ARC, because he is essentially a contractor for them. He also states that they will be sold on the Arc website. Then he recently says that *HE* is considering putting them (the first 100) for sale on ebay. I think we all have a very similar opinion of that idea thumbsdow) but ARC is entitled to sell them however they may wish. Many people are speculating (as Skalomax did in the quote above) that *HE *may need to recoup losses from this drawn out process we have all been waiting on. I thought he was just a contractor for the new decision makers/owners? Whatever, I don't care. I would like to see pics of the production models, and finally see them for sale somewhere. 

It doesn't really make any difference at this point, whoever owns the company, and whoever makes their decisions, and whoever is building the things... I just keep getting confused as I eagerly await the new Arc-LS. 

And just in case anyone cares, I will not be buying one in an ebay auction.


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## this_is_nascar (May 14, 2008)

paulr said:


> Ray, that's just not accurate, the LS6 is completely different from the PD under the skin. The styling and UI are similar (though not identical). The implementation has no resemblance whatsoever, The LS6's levels are controlled by a microprocessor, for crying out loud! The PD has completely mechanical switching. It's like saying no innovation has gone into a hybrid gas-electric car, because it looks similar on the outside and has a similar steering wheel to a traditional gas-only model. Building the hybrid took a massive amount of new engineering even if it's not immediately obvious to someone simply driving the car. I've stated my own reasons for not being terribly excited by the LS6 (mainly its lack of a flood beam), but saying it's a repackaged PD or doesn't contain innovation is just bogus.



I've never claimed to be an expert on the new LS, nor had any desire to be. Like I said, once I "saw" what it looked like, I considered it's concept to be a "sell-out" and not inovative at all, lacking creativity. If the "guts" of the LS makes it something that is not currently available on the market (remember the Arc of several years ago), than I'll stand corrected.


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## Groundhog66 (May 14, 2008)

PoliceScannerMan said:


> Especially you!



NOPE, he lost me when the colored LED items went to Ebay instead of here:tsk:. I made my opinion very clear when that happened a while back.:whoopin:Total load of doodoo if you ask me, "Screw you CPF'ers, get them on Ebay"


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## Russki (May 14, 2008)

Why don’t you guys make a pact for CPF members:
*DO NOT BUY ARC LS FROM E-BAY IF YOU ARE TRUE CPFer.*
IMHO even I will not buy this light from E-Bay, still, designer-owner do what ever he want. IT IS his product.
Also, I don’t see many people complain then someone sell rear or unique light on B/S/T after a week of purchase with $100 or more profit. This is free market. Right? :thinking:


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## darkzero (May 14, 2008)

Only way I'd buy one from ebay is if it has a reasonable priced "buy it now" & doesn't have like a $15 shipping charge.

Doesn't make sense to me. Marketed & hyped up on CPF then off to ebay? :thumbsdow What it all comes down to is the money. I hope the support will be there after the money is made & not just disappear into the CPF archive again.


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## Groundhog66 (May 14, 2008)

Russki said:


> Why don’t you guys make a pact for CPF members:
> *DO NOT BUY ARC LS FROM E-BAY IF YOU ARE TRUE CPFer.*
> IMHO even I will not buy this light from E-Bay, still, designer-owner do what ever he want. IT IS his product.
> Also, I don’t see many people complain then someone sell rear or unique light on B/S/T after a week of purchase with $100 or more profit. This is free market. Right? :thinking:




At least they/we/I flip the lights here, not Ebay........there IS a difference whether you see it or not.


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## MikeG1P315 (May 14, 2008)

"Raa-aar!" as my favorite pod racer in SW Episode 1 said moments before he crashed into a stalagmite. 

I very rarely post around these parts, mostly just a consumer of information. In fact, the only reason I know ARC exists is because at some time in the distant past, on some forum not CPF, I asked a question about LED flashlight technology and was referred to a post in one of the earlier NEW ARC LS threads that addressed the question. I've read most of the posts in the Arc LS threads, but primarily the ones from Peter, Don and others that discuss LED technology more than anything else.

Also, I should admit my bias up front: while I think the Arc LS 6 looks like (inside and out) an amazing piece of well thought out LED flashlight tech, I will not be buying one for the forseeable future. I'm not a collector, and when I parted with $150 for my first HDS B42 I almost had a heart attack. When it was lost, I swallowed hard and bought a Novatac 85p to replace it. I don't have a need for multiple EDC style flashlights. If I still had my HDS, and lost it after the LS came out, I'd likely by the LS instead of the NT, just because I like the piston and the twisty aspect of it.

Anyway, onward!

These are just my thoughts, feel free to disagree, disparage, and denegrate as you like. :nana: My feelings will not be hurt. 

Ebay: I think this makes sense. There is a limited number of initial units which are apparently hand inspected and assembled, mostly by Peter himself if I recall earlier posts. Sure, they parts are semi-production, but the assembly and testing is borderline custom. There is a huge following on CPF for Arc, so I understand being put off by auctioning off the first 100. Yet, the first 100 are the only ones that are serial numbered, hand assembled by their creator, and first of a new breed. Finally, perhaps Peter's thinking is along the lines of not setting a future retail price based on bidding, but recouping as much of the initial design costs as possible in the first 100 items to hopefully offset retail prices of future production units. If the people who are willing to spend the most for collectability and serial numbers and to be first bid these lights way up in price, there is a better chance of recouping more than normal R&D costs than just setting a decently profitable retail price. Then, hopefully, future units can be sold at a lower price as the future units will not have to offset as much of the start up costs.

Peter's loyatly to his CPF customers: I've seen it printed elsewhere, and I'm sure we all know it. This community is like any fan community- rabid to the core. I'm a Spyderco junkie myself, so I can relate to being ultra-faithful and ultra-opinionated about my brand. The thing we all have to keep in mind is that while CPF may even be a sizeable chunk of the flashlight market, we are not the entire market. I think Peter is trying to best determine how to balance returned loyalty to his supporting fans and users here who have been with him since the beginning, and make a profitable item for his employer for future sales that will likely spread beyond CPF.

And, finally, as I recall (and I did not go back to double check, so if I'm wrong, my apologies) Peter said from the beginning this light would be EXPENSIVE. He has never really stated a price, but has hinted at $200-$300 fairly consistently. Also, again as far as I recall, Peter has indicated this is his idea of the best EDC and what he would want to carry. I get the impresison he designed the light he wanted for himself, and just so happened to have an avenue to make it available to everyone else who wants one to.

If you like the light and the price, buy it. If you don't like the light or the price, don't buy it. But just because you don't like the light's features or the price or the method of delivery does not necessarily mean the manufacturer or designer don't care, it just means the product isn't what you want it to be.

I will now carefully step off my soapbox and leave it empty for the next speaker in this evening's lineup.

:wave:

--Michael


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## hank (May 14, 2008)

Just sayin', I recall early on I suggested auctioning the new colored AAAs, and -- although, when it happened, I couldn't afford the bidding prices Peter got for them on EBay -- I still think it's right for Peter to get the highest reward for his development work. 

And assuming Peter can pay off the development costs early, perhaps he won't have to be like Steve Jobs, charging both arms and a leg the first six months of each new product, then cutting prices after he's recovered his development costs. That Apple tactic always ends up pissing off the early adopters, but it makes business sense.

Heck, Steve Jobs ought to be auctioning the first few months' run of his next model iPhone. Steve, you listening?


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## Robocop (May 14, 2008)

Myslef like many others here are the people who supported Arc from the start. I am an average collector who both uses and enjoys lights and hundreds of average people like me were the main base of Arcs customer base long ago. Yes plain old people who could afford to buy the AAA and save for a few weeks to buy the more expensive LS.

My point with that is that average members could buy the past lights and Peter seemed to have a sweet thing going. The past lights were simple and reliable and most of all within reach of the average CPF member or average consumer for that matter.

Somewhere along the way it seems as if Arc may now be headed toward the high end collector only with plenty of cash to pay. If this is true then great and it is none of my business really however it seems to leave the once average fan out of the loop.....the ones who once bought Arc products.

Who am I to question anything....well there are hundreds just like me and we are the average hobby/gadget type people who really want to support Arc however as of now simply can not do so.

I may be wrong here but I noticed a big change in Arc after they closed a while back and the value went up like crazy. People were paying 80 dollars for the standard AAA and even much more for the base LS. Maybe it was then that the decision was made to slowly swing towards the higher end collectors. 

I have no problem with anyone making as much as they can on any product. I do have a problem when there is not any item in reach of the average and always loyal customers. Make as much as you wish on the fancy version and allow those who can to buy as many as they wish. It would simply be a nice gesture to also offer something less fancy and less expensive to those of us like myself.....you know the ones who used to buy Arc products.

I am not even sure as to why the mention of E-Bay makes me angry but it does. Who are we kidding here the mere mention of it must surely mean that it will most likely happen or it would not have been said. I think it is mostly because we all waited and watched.....we all had input and suggestions and most of all support. All the while we were told "pricing will come when I can do so" and now suddenly here right at the end we get the mention of E-Bay and still no set price.

Maybe as an option and if indeed there are future runs Arc could keep the new design and charge any higher cost it will bring. If possible maybe just maybe Arc could consider a basic version sold alonside the higher version for those who just want the older but a little more modern LS.


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## olrac (May 14, 2008)

I think as Arc has evolved and changed, it opens up an opportunity for the "next Arc" mfg to step in and fill that void. Maybe it won't be an good ole american company. Who knows, maybe Fenix will be the next Arc, they seem to listen to the consumers and try to provide what we want in a timely and economic fashion. Perhaps we are witnessing nothing more than the Corporate version of Darwin's "natural selection" in action. Remember at one time Dinosaurs were the pinnacle of evolution.


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## Robocop (May 14, 2008)

There is no doubt Arc has evolved and certainly changed. In the beginning Arc was considered a "higher end" product however could still actually be had by the average forum member on an average income. Now it appears if Arc continues to make lights they will be had only be the most die hard fans and no longer include the weekend caver, camper, adventurer, or even military and LEO with average income. These type people were the ones who made Arc successful and I can see recent developments turning them away from Arc.

The AAA started it all and is still considered a benchmark of design and function. Almost everyone could actually get one and the quality made these same people buy other Arc products. I can honestly see the average customer today looking for something nice. This customer has an Aec AAA and wishes to go up in power a little and looks at other Arc offerings. Imagine their suprise when they see such a huge difference in cost with the small AAA and then only one other version costing probably 300 dollars. It would be nice to see the AAA followed by an entry level 123 product for say 100 or 150 and then a jump to the Arc6 for much more. Then we the average people would have a choice.....as it stands many are being shut out without any other choices but to look elsewhere.

Purely as a loyal fan and actual user of past Arc products the more I think of it the more angry I feel.


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## Finbar (May 14, 2008)

LET THE GAMES BEGIN!

If we don't fight to the death...theeeeeeey will kill us both.

Dat da, da da, dat da, da.

Brrrrrudah! Brrrrrudah!

Goodbye Jim.


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## Mr.Remote (May 14, 2008)

I have no opinion about Peter's character as "business is business". I am just about over all of this. I will be dissapointed if they go on Ebay. I do not understand how all of these statments about how, when, and where, in one fail swoop seems to have been all flushed away. I dont understand how you can be this far along and can not/will not come up with a selling price. If they go on Ebay my guess is that ARC has decided that the LS6 is just too impratical to produce anymore of them and they want to recoup as much from this 2 year r&d project as they can. 

my 2 cents


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## Thujone (May 14, 2008)

Mr.Remote said:


> If they go on Ebay my guess is that ARC has decided that the LS6 is just too impratical to produce anymore of them and they want to recoup as much from this 2 year r&d project as they can.
> 
> my 2 cents




Or they will do batch releases on ebay till demand goes away. The trouble finding someone that can make the electronics threw a big red flag up for me... I think u may be spot on.


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## iconoclast (May 14, 2008)

At first I had the same reaction as most of the comments above. But the more I think about it...

If it goes to Ebay, all the long time arc-fans folks won't touch it with a 10 foot pole. Fewer bidders and thus lower price. Also, those left willing to bid on it will invariably include some less fanatic flashaholics, who will shortly be asking themselves "why did I pay so much for a flashlight", and attempt to recoup at least some of what they paid out by selling it. So two or three weeks after the auction, they'll be available in BST and most of the arc-followers will still be too incensed to buy it. A couple price-drops later and it'll be possible to pick one up at a "curiosity" price. Then without much risk, you'll be able to determine if this UI is all it's cracked up to be. If it's not, back on the bst list it goes. If it really is something of an improvement, then then it can be gutted and the insides stuffed into a real PD. :tinfoil:


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## darkzero (May 14, 2008)

And if they are put up on ebay, will each serial number have it's own listing? I hope a good number of them will be put up at once if not all. If only 1-2 are listed at a time until the whole 100 is sold then it's pretty much done for the intent of milking the money out of the buyers. 

If the sole reason for putting them on ebay first is to see how much they will go for, you don't need to sell the whole 100 on ebay for that. 

I've never heard of a production product being put up for auction to determine what they should be sold for. Price should be based on parts cost, labor, profit, etc.


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## Fathom (May 15, 2008)

I don't understand all the bitterness and dramatics, it's embarrassing. Maybe I just don't know what this universal "CPF" mentality is yet that Iconoclast speaks of, 



iconoclast said:


> If it goes to Ebay, all the long time arc-fans folks won't touch it with a 10 foot pole. Fewer bidders and thus lower price.


Cool, I will be the only long term ARC fan in the bidding. (yea, right... so stupid)

It is simple Economics 101 at it's most basic and I doubt many whining are ARC share holders. Auctions are fair. It is worth exactly what people are willing to pay in a fair market. For some LS-6 will be a tool, for others a collectible. Some act like he is gouging on food and shelter. The price will stabilize at production levels at some point, or be a big expensive flop, or prove just not worth the hassle and aggravation.

I have waited since 2005 for an improved LS (why I joined CPF). There are only so many LS-6 to go round. Maybe these will be the only ones made. If auctioned, it should be interesting.

It is common for new high tech or trendy items to start out at the "highest" fixed price and then decrease over time. This will be more like an IPO (Initial Public Offering)

In a sense it is now our turn to do some speculative investing for a couple of days as others have done the past two years and see how it feels risking unknown amount or hard earned money up front on something you have not held or seen with your own eyes.

We still don't know if, how many, posting spread, what reserve price, etc. He floated a balloon and still playing it by ear I bet. No matter how the LS-6 is brought to market some will be pissy no doubt.

Congratulation Peter on getting to market. 
I know it is exciting and frightening for most when it happens publicly on line like this.

Good Luck


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## ChocolateLab33 (May 15, 2008)

Groundhog66 said:


> As far as I am concerned, even SUGGESTING it is close enough. If he was the hero we all THOUGHT he was, there would NEVER be a question who the initial release would be dealt to......
> 
> 
> And before someone states the obvious, I KNOW we are free to bid on these lights when they are on Ebay......but that is hardly the point is it.....


_____________________

+1


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## paulr (May 15, 2008)

Fathom, I don't think Econ 101 applies to this situation. There's not a fixed demand curve to plot against the supply curve and find the intersection. And people generally don't buy these things either as tools or as collectables. They buy them because they are cool, and coolness is intangible, but a big part of the coolness comes from the community interaction here on CPF. When the interaction becomes less fun, the coolness drops and therefore the demand drops and therefore the supply and demand curves intersect at a lower price point, if you get my drift. 

So now you've got a bunch of experienced CPF'ers saying that using ebay would damage the interaction and make the light less desirable. I don't have a strong view about it myself (since I'm not seriously in the market for this model) but I think those would-be buyers probably know their own reactions. The light itself (the bundle of metal and electronics) is just a component of what the buyer is paying for when they hand over their cash. Coolness is the other part, and it begins to sound like ebay destroys the coolness, leaving just the light. Ebay may very well be a losing proposition for all parties concerned, Peter because the lowered coolness makes the lights less desirable, and the CPF'ers because the coolness they want stops being available (and no, you don't get to redefine for them what they find cool or uncool).


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## Robocop (May 15, 2008)

Fathom I agree with Paul and say economics, business tactics, or supply and demand is really not the issue here. The issue is loyalty and plain old spirit of CPF. There have been many loyal fans following this drama putting up with all kinds of delays and still have no fixed price. If this were a new company or stranger to CPF then E-Bay would not suprise any of us however this is a company that many of us grew with from the beginning. There are many fans that are loyal to Arc however these fans are now feeling that Arc is suddenly not so loyal to them.

If anything the first batch should be sold to CPF members only without having to put up with the insane bidding and hassle of E-Bay.....not because it makes more business sense but because it would be the cool thing to do for the group that has waited for so many years. No I do not plan on buying one as of now so again I could care less but I still get angry as I can feel the same sinking feeling as the other past Arc fans.

Now on a second thought maybe this is not Peters decision anyway. He has stated their are others in charge now so maybe this other company strung him along and has now decided to use E-Bay. Maybe this could be one reason he has stated he has thoughts of leaving the business after this new version is out. Maybe he has no choice as this new company funding the deal has no loyalty to CPF anyway.....that makes sense to me.

No way that this can be salvaged in the long run I believe as many have waited way too long. Hell it took years to even get a photo for crying out loud and even so the fans still remained loyal. Some became frustrated yet still waited with PayPal ready. Then there is a chance these who waited will have to put up with E-Bay....yes even the mention of this idea in my opinion was a mistake even if it does not happen. It shows us all about loyalty I believe.


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## MY (May 15, 2008)

McGizmo said:


> All that really matters is the light itself. Until it is available we have nothing of substance. If it initially comes to us via EBay or specially marked CrackerJack boxes, so be it.
> 
> The heart and soul of the new Arc LS can not be viewed by seeing a photo of its package because what counts is within and this has been Peter's focus all this time.



Well said Don. I suggest that Peter seriously think about going the CrackerJack box way . . . 

As an ARC user way back from the beginning, I have always voted with my pocketbook. This time around will be no different regardless of all the theatrics occurring. Peter will make a business decision about how to market the light (product, price, place, promotion, etc.). I will make a personal decision about whether the actual costs (time, money, lost opportunity, etc.) will justify the perceived benefits from the light. Until I receive all the information necessary to engage in this exchange, it will be impossible to make this decision. Speculation may be fun, but we could continue down this road until the cows come home. 

Regards.


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## Robocop (May 15, 2008)

Don I have to dis-agree as the light itself is really not the important issue. Regardless of the function or quality or even the fact none of us know how well the insides are made has nothing to do with this newest possible issue.

The fact is,regardless of the insides of this light, this is to be the newest offering from Arc and it is something CPF has been waiting for a very long time. Who cares right now what is on the inside as we all know it should be a great light but if it does matter as to how it is made available. E-Bay would most likely force only a select few to have one and bidding wars are never really nice. 

In my opinion CPF is mostly responsible for Arc being what they are today. I feel sure we here made up most of Arcs early sales and probably much of todays sales as well. Regardless of the substance of the new version most of us thought this would be available from the website with a set price....not through the meat market that is E-Bay. I fully agree as a business Arc can do whatever they wish for the best profit however I really do not feel E-Bay will result in a better future for Arc.

I guess to sum it up I would say loyalty and good old fashioned fan support is the issue. This new light could be simply amazing or even total crap however again this is not the question here. The question here as I see it is Peter or the new Arc company now in this for the most money forgetting the good old days of affordable products or is there still some of the Old style left in Arc. The old Arc seemed to really try hard to reach us all and those tales of Customer service were all very true. I would never have seen the Old Arc to sale only to the highest bidder....it simply was not about that back then. The maker then was also a flashaholic or so it seemed and as such kept his fellow members in mind.


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## Daekar (May 15, 2008)

Good heavens you guys, look at this thread, it's embarassing. No wonder Surefire doesn't have a rep on this board, it would take more patience and tolerance for foolishness than any mere mortal could be expected to possess. If I were Peter I wouldn't give out any information ahead of time ever again, and when I left Arc I would run away screaming, "I'm free!" 

Loyalty and CPF spirit my foot... even CPF itself is a business venture, and ALL of the manufacturers who sell here don't do it for a warm fuzzy feeling or to promote board unity any such garbage, they do it to make money. It's pretty daggone presumptuous for any of us to criticize how they do business, and even more thoughtless for those who own and run their own businesses. How would you like it if potential customers hounded you this way? It seems to me that the best way to interact with the forum (as LumaPower found out over time) is to give out little to no information until just before release of a light and address issues at that point - and to ignore some issues brought up as not worthy of the attention.

Let's please try to behave like mature, intelligent human beings and stop with the whining. It's not like _the possibility_ of selling the first 100 on Ebay is really a slap in the face - how on earth could it be? It's not like he's not going to post notifying us that they're up for sale (unless he's so annoyed he doesn't) and it's not like he won't answer questions about the UI or anything else, I'm sure - except maybe why the price is what it is, which is none of our business. At this point, I'm asking, "What could Peter do that people _wouldn't _complain about?" :sick2:

Remember, the loudest vote is an unpurchased product. If you really don't like it, don't buy it. If you're offended somehow, don't buy it. If you think Peter didn't promote board spirit enough or other such nonsense, don't buy it. :shakehead If you understand business requires compromises, decisions, uncertainty, risks, and the inability to please everyone all the time, then BUY IT! BUY TWO!  Just don't continue to clutter up the information thread... it's really getting old...


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## this_is_nascar (May 15, 2008)

Mr.Remote said:


> I have no opinion about Peter's character as "business is business". I am just about over all of this. I will be dissapointed if they go on Ebay. I do not understand how all of these statments about how, when, and where, in one fail swoop seems to have been all flushed away. I dont understand how you can be this far along and can not/will not come up with a selling price. If they go on Ebay my guess is that ARC has decided that the LS6 is just too impratical to produce anymore of them and they want to recoup as much from this 2 year r&d project as they can.
> 
> my 2 cents



.... and that's exactly why I suggested we'll never see a "2nd run" or anything past the 1st release of this light.


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## rolling (May 15, 2008)

Daekar said:


> Good heavens you guys, look at this thread, it's embarassing. No wonder Surefire doesn't have a rep on this board, it would take more patience and tolerance for foolishness than any mere mortal could be expected to possess. If I were Peter I wouldn't give out any information ahead of time ever again, and when I left Arc I would run away screaming, "I'm free!"
> 
> Loyalty and CPF spirit my foot... even CPF itself is a business venture, and ALL of the manufacturers who sell here don't do it for a warm fuzzy feeling or to promote board unity any such garbage, they do it to make money. It's pretty daggone presumptuous for any of us to criticize how they do business, and even more thoughtless for those who own and run their own businesses. How would you like it if potential customers hounded you this way? It seems to me that the best way to interact with the forum (as LumaPower found out over time) is to give out little to no information until just before release of a light and address issues at that point - and to ignore some issues brought up as not worthy of the attention.
> 
> ...



Exactly my thought. But I just didnt cared enough to write it down...


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## jch79 (May 15, 2008)

*Another +1 to Daeker's comments. *


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## REDLINEVUE (May 15, 2008)

jch79 said:


> *Another +1 to Daeker's comments. *


 
+1 more..... 

but lets also not forget about good old fashion sabotage and jealously... There is also the quite REAL possibility that those doing all the bashing here on this thread are doing nothing more then intentionally tiring to drive down desirability of the light as to ensure they can get their bid in!! As I have read many times on this board lots of posters are VERY price oriented and on a specific budget for this light.... 

I might get lashed for this one but Im gonna say it anyway.... There are also those of us that FULLY welcome and WANT the light to appear on eBay... as someone with an unusually high disposable income, I would like the opportunity to buy two or three of these lights but previously Peter has stated he would discourage this via his site.. On eBay he has NO CONTROL and I can bid on and buy as MANY as I feel I want.... So I for one am keeping my fingers crossed that his final decision is in favor of eBay!


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## cnw4002 (May 15, 2008)

Why does everybody say peter this or peter that. He is only a consultant allegedly a designer if you will. I do not understand why he say he will put the first ones on ebay. Unless he still is the company under some other umbrella to hide from creditors from his bankruptcy. The real owners will make the decision.


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## Groundhog66 (May 15, 2008)

REDLINEVUE said:


> +1 more.....
> 
> but lets also not forget about good old fashion sabotage and jealously... There is also the quite REAL possibility that those doing all the bashing here on this thread are doing nothing more then intentionally tiring to drive down desirability of the light as to ensure they can get their bid in!! As I have read many times on this board lots of posters are VERY price oriented and on a specific budget for this light....
> 
> I might get lashed for this one but Im gonna say it anyway.... There are also those of us that FULLY welcome and WANT the light to appear on eBay... as someone with an unusually high disposable income, I would like the opportunity to buy two or three of these lights but previously Peter has stated he would discourage this via his site.. On eBay he has NO CONTROL and I can bid on and buy as MANY as I feel I want.... So I for one am keeping my fingers crossed that his final decision is in favor of eBay!


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## Kiessling (May 15, 2008)

Daekar said:


> Loyalty and CPF spirit my foot... even CPF itself is a business venture, and ALL of the manufacturers who sell here don't do it for a warm fuzzy feeling or to promote board unity any such garbage, they do it to make money.



Not that I cared for this current drama ... but I care for CPF. Which is why, after reading this, I have to comment.
It wasn't always like this. CPF was *VERY* different some time ago. Arc is, at least in the "flashaholic souls" of a lot of members, a part of that old CPF spirit.
Which might explain a lot of the emotional reactions.

bernie


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## Stillphoto (May 15, 2008)

I too agree with Daeker...As well as Kiessling.

I like how all Peter had to do was mention something about ebay and then we hashed out the whole discussion from there, without any reasoning from the man himself.


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## jch79 (May 15, 2008)

Yes, great points from Bernie as well. A good addendum to Daeker's statement, from one of the ol' timers! :nana:


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## this_is_nascar (May 15, 2008)

Stillphoto said:


> I too agree with Daeker...As well as Kiessling.
> 
> I like how all Peter had to do was mention something about ebay and then we hashed out the whole discussion from there, without any reasoning from the man himself.



I guess I don't understand what it is you and others don't understand. The fact that it is a thought and was mentioned is enough to justify the comments (including mine). It doesn't matter whether they wind up on eBay or not at this point as far as I'm concerned.


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## Midnightrun (May 15, 2008)

Maybe Peter should include some tampons with his flashlights


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## Daekar (May 15, 2008)

Kiessling said:


> Not that I cared for this current drama ... but I care for CPF. Which is why, after reading this, I have to comment.
> It wasn't always like this. CPF was *VERY* different some time ago. Arc is, at least in the "flashaholic souls" of a lot of members, a part of that old CPF spirit.
> Which might explain a lot of the emotional reactions.
> 
> bernie


 
Thank you for the insight, Bernie... I'm sorry I wasn't around to experience the "old cpf." I know that some of the people who make/mod lights or parts don't do it for the money but because they enjoy it... and if any of them take exception at my blanket statement, I hope they accept my humble apologies - as always, all generalizations are incorrect (is that one incorrect? ) and don't always apply.


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## Fathom (May 15, 2008)

Daekar said:


> Good heavens you guys, look at this thread, it's embarassing.



+1

*Arc AAA LED Flashlight Premium, NEW VERSION from MTD 
**Item number: 8711841166
**This item has been paid through PayPal. Payment was sent to: [email protected] on Oct-22-05.
**Sold for: **US $49.99
Shipping costs: US $5.95 - US Postal Service Priority Mail® (within United States )

*"Arc AAA LED Flashlight Premium Version, White LED, New Version

Brand new, never used, packed in a ziplock bag straight from MTD LLC, the new manufacturer of the ARC AAA Flashlight. Arc LLC went out of business, but the original designer of the Arc AAA flashlight is now working for a new company, and they have introduced a new, improved version of the Arc AAA flashlight. The new version is much brighter than the original version." 

When the new, reborn, ARC AAA came out in 2005 I had to go to eBay to buy it, or join the massive backorder list at ARC. 

From the beginning I don't think it was ever mentioned that Arc6 would be sold at CPF for CPF, only at ARC's public online site. eBay at least avoids indeterminate back orders at ARC. 

I wonder what the eBay thought and reasoning is; "Multiple Item Auction", "Reserve Price Auction" with serial numbers listed, "Buy It Now"...


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## The Coach (May 15, 2008)

This is some interesting stuff, but I look at it this way




(get it??)
I can't build a light from scratch (hell, I can't even put one together from parts), so when I buy a light I have three criteria, (1) do I like it, (2) do I want it and (3) can I afford it. 1 and 2 generally override 3. So, when this light does come out, I will check it out. I do like it and I sort of want it (there are a couple of lights ahead of it on the MUST HAVE list), so #3 will have the last word. There are only two lights that I am willing to pay over $250 for and an aluminum light doesn't fall into that category. Anyway, that's my 1.5 cents and that's my story and I'm sticking to it. Carry on.


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## MorpheusT1 (May 15, 2008)

Give the man a rest guys....

This thread has turned into rubbish and i am ashamed.

Thanks Peter for all the Updates so far,and please keep them commming.


I cant wait to get one no matter what the price is.


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## Robocop (May 15, 2008)

Well maybe I am looking at this from the perspective of way back when. I believe out of frustration due to such a long wait and also being a fan from the old days I may be out of line and if so I will apologize to any who need to hear it. Yes some may feel the spirit of loyalty or CPF sounds like bull crap however there was a time when CPF was a major source of input to ARC and we were all much better friends rather than just simply a business venture. 

We all rallied around Peter when he had trouble and it was because we were long time friends and supporters. If it were just a business then he could have simply dissappeared and none of us would have thought twice about it. There are plenty of lights these days for us all to get our fix with however many of us still wished for Arc to return....not because it was a business we missed but because we respected and liked the creator and wanted him to do well.

The reason many may not continue to support Arc if Peter does indeed leave is not because the product will be bad but simply because the long time visionary will no longer be involved. If Peter does indeed leave Arc then it will simply be a business to many of us. As a supporter I want Peter to do well regardless of his profession. I simply like the guy for many reasons and wish him the best. He could come back 5 years from now and make a light and call it The Fart light for all I care and I would probably support it simply because I like him and not because it is a business.


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## Fathom (May 15, 2008)

Robocop said:


> many may not continue to support Arc if Peter does indeed leave


Where did that come from, did I miss something??? :huh2:

Peter has been the voice of ARC. The only voice I know of what ever his position and standing in ARC is. It has always seemed synonymous.


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## olrac (May 15, 2008)

Fathom said:


> Where did that come from, did I miss something??? :huh2:
> 
> Peter has been the voice of ARC. The only voice I know of what ever his position and standing in ARC is. It has always seemed synonymous.



from earlier in the thread or it might have been from a jeers thread. Him moving to do A.I. work I think or something of that nature.


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## BentHeadTX (May 15, 2008)

I for one am extremely wary of Arc...a little history first.

2003 I bought my first Arc AAA and liked it
2004 Bought one for a retirement gift and it will live with you for as long as you live (WRONG!)
2004 Bought an Arc AAA-P due to perceived reliability in Iraq (WRONG!) 
2004 Arc 4 after draining Arc for waaaay too long is released...it is a piece of crap due to lack of realistic testing and is very unreliable. 
2004 Arc dies after the Arc 4 fiasco and the AAA has transistor problems
2005 MTD/Arc lives...warranty? Uhhhh..... 
2006 to 2008 Arc LS rumors abound and CPF goes nuts
2008 Arc AAA GS jumps $10 to $50 to get one of those 50 cent extra cost GS LEDs. The LED sticks out past the head but they are shipped anyway. 
2008 Peter is leaving MTD/Arc
2008 Arc6 is Fleabay "hit'n'run" release to maximize $$$$ 
2008 Is the Arc6 the new Arc4? 

I have an early red LED Arc AAA anodized black (love it!) and an Arc AA. Have no plans to add to my collection and do not feel the need to do so. The "fool me once, fool me twice" concept. If I want to be a beta tester, I can play with Microsoft Vista. This is a lot of fun to watch as I see this train rolling down the track. 

After all...it is a flashlight and there are hundreds of choices now. 2001-2003 is long gone and it is less of a family and now pure business. Loyalty? Welcome to 2K8!


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## Stillphoto (May 15, 2008)

Oy.


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## this_is_nascar (May 15, 2008)

BentHeadTX said:


> I for one am extremely wary of Arc...a little history first.
> 
> 2003 I bought my first Arc AAA and liked it
> 2004 Bought one for a retirement gift and it will live with you for as long as you live (WRONG!)
> ...



You forgot one. I don't recall all the details, but it may have been back around the time of the Arc-LE (Limited Edition). There was a big batch where the bezel hole opening (where the LED goes into) was drilled too large. The fix was to epoxy filler the hole to lessen its diameter.


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## schiesz (May 15, 2008)

Fathom said:


> Where did that come from, did I miss something??? :huh2:
> 
> Peter has been the voice of ARC. The only voice I know of what ever his position and standing in ARC is. It has always seemed synonymous.



I think this post will pretty much sum it up for you.


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## Fathom (May 15, 2008)

schiesz said:


> I think this post will pretty much sum it up for you.


Thanks for the link. I miss a few days here and there. I would probably do better to just subscribe to Gransee's posts.

In all respects I appreciate Peters ethic, I can not say that about most engineers.

To bring something with real inherent quality from original concept to market takes more than most realize, especially when reliance on component availability, quality, tolerances, and other contractors (pcb's, custom hardware, finish) are involved. 

Design is challenging and fun but I never had the mind set or grief tolerance to leave the bench and deal with those outside forces. Much less under the demanding scrutiny of a public forum that at times can be insensitive and out of touch with the unseen issues involved. Yuk. I am sure it was easier with the development of ARC AAA rev. 4 (ARC-P), it seemed much friendlier and communal then, even This_is_Nascar was gracious compared to now.


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## Robocop (May 15, 2008)

I think Kiessling said it best as Arc was in the souls of many early members. For those of us who have been here long enough it is easy to remember when Mr.Gransee himself was first starting out. Maybe it was just a business all along however he never acted like it was "just business" and as such made many loyal friends.

For myself and many others Arc was the first real light or at least higher end light they bought. It did not matter if it was the AAA or the LSHP for many Arc brought us all to a higher level of appreciation to lights. Yes many of the recent posts sound negative,harsh or even judgemental however I honestly believe it is just a little venting of frustrations.

It is easy to forget that Mr. Gransee has had some serious problems and that he does have bills to pay so again as a past fan I will still support his decisions. To those who see recent posts from members as rubbish or harsh at least try to understand where it is coming from. At one time the creator of Arc was much more involved and was an innovator in our smaller CPF forum. I do not believe even Peter himself considered his work as a business even though it was. I do believe that if he should come out and say he was indeed leaving he would still receive support fom many friends.

I believe I will sit back and read future developments and not say much else on this until we hear from Mr. Gransee. Maybe after it calms down a little we will all know a little more.


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## greenLED (May 15, 2008)

Robocop said:


> I think Kiessling said it best as Arc was in the souls of many early members.


Back then owning an ArcAAA was like having a CPF membership card. Oh, how the times have changed...


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## Crenshaw (May 16, 2008)

Im a pretty new member but fwiw..

i think Daekar has got it right. I mean, yes i get it that people feel betrayed after supporting arc for so long...

but honestly, how much support can we offer? ARCs more or less last forever, and even if they dont, we get free replacements, etc, which still cost money for peter. So lets say you bought two LSH-P for $160 back when they came out. Thats $320, a few years ago. My point is that, even though you might have supported ARC in the past by buying thier products, and continued saying kind words in these forums all these years, it does not necessarily equate to profit for peter. 

for example, i support fenix very much, but i dont buy ALOT of products from them, so im a noisy, verbal supporter, not really much of a shareholder that expects something from them personally.

I have been following this thread since getting my LSL-S, its a beautiful light, and was hoping to continue enjoying ARC's fantastic products, thats why regardless of the first 100 being on ebay or whatever, i just hope that there WILL be availability of these lights for awhile to come, because from Peter's intial descriptions of it, its one heck of a light.

for me then bottom line is, just cos we say alot of nice things for ARC, it doesnt necesarily mean we should get any sort of preferential treatment. Manufacturors do sometimes go out of thier way for this community, and its all warm and fuzzy, but at the end of the day, business is business.

Crenshaw


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## schiesz (May 16, 2008)

Crenshaw said:


> ...even if they dont, we get free replacements, etc, which still cost money for peter.
> 
> ...it does not necessarily equate to profit for peter.



I just want to see the thing actually up for sale, but I keep seeing comments like these in this thread and I think it really clouds the issue. 

Peter Gransee has made it pretty clear that he is simply a consultant for the current ARC company, or their owners CSI (I think that is the name we have been given) and this has been the situation for at least the last 3 years. 

Costs for Peter/profits for Peter really aren't part of the equation here.


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## paulr (May 16, 2008)

I certainly don't feel betrayed or anything like that, by the LS6 delays. Disappointed maybe, but betrayed?! It's not like Peter took our money and then didn't pursue development, or even got our expectations fired up without taking our money and then abandoned the project to do something else. LS6 development has hit some snags just like everything does, and maybe Peter pursued some avenues that didn't work out, just like all of us have. I do have doubts about whether the LS6 program was appropriate for Arc to be pursuing in the first place based on the resources and skills available, but again, at worst that's a case of good faith decisions being made that weren't so wise. There is no betrayal involved. My own gesture towards helping the project along was to order an AAA-GS which I just received and reviewed in the GS thread. As said when I ordered it, maybe it funded an extra half hour of LS6 development :shrug:.


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## Crenshaw (May 16, 2008)

okay, so betrayed is a bit strong.. but you get what i mean..

schiesz, my bad, but what i do mean is that, CIS still needs to make money.

its even less personal if Peter is only a consultant, because the people who really make the descisions at CIS probably have little contact to CPF other then Peter..

Crenshaw


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## Sigman (May 16, 2008)

I'm an old "ARCY" from way back as well. I've kept from posting in any of the ARC6 threads (oh there may be a post or two?), as I'm fairly sure it's not in my future.

Maybe Peter would at least consider a CPF lottery, IF all of the 1st (and only?) run could be sold here?

Those interested post that intention, while someone maintains a list & then numbers are drawn?

Ok, I'm outta' here...


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## Drywolf (May 16, 2008)

.


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## mikes1 (May 16, 2008)

MorpheusT1 said:


> Give the man a rest guys....
> 
> This thread has turned into rubbish and i am ashamed.
> 
> ...


 

I second this post but ebay for me adds nothing

I will not by from ebay!

Mike


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## toby_pra (May 16, 2008)

I dont understand, why Ebay?:shakehead


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## PEU (May 16, 2008)

toby_pra said:


> I dont understand, why Ebay?:shakehead



Its really simple, to maximize profits...


Pablo


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## Lebkuecher (May 16, 2008)

The idea of ebay may not be all of Peter's decision so before blasting Peter in his own forum it might be a good idea to post your thoughts in a respectable way. Either way if ebay offers a higher profit potential in Peter's mind then it is his obligation to Cups to make this alternative known as well as the feeling of the people on the CPF. 

And BTW, where did the idea of this being the only run of lights come from????? It would make no sense to spend the money invested into this project for a single run of lights. The loss would be enormous if this were the case. Peter has made references in his posts concerning training employees on building procedures which leads me to believe anyway this project will continue.


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## Gransee (May 16, 2008)

Still haven't had a chance to read all the posts so I will probably end up repeating good points that other people already made. Several people have told me that a few people are wondering why I suggested ebay. The reason is that the K2TF LED is rare. Yes, of course we want to make money and of course I like the idea of people being able to go for a particular serial number but the main reason is that we only have ~100 LEDs. *I want these to go to the right people. People who really value and want this product.* If I maximize the paring of product to person, then I will maximize the satisfaction for the product. And I have such a small number to work with.

I have spent 2 years of my passion on this design.

I was talking to Don earlier today and he said I should remind people that this first 100 is atypical for what we intend the regular production Arc6 to be. This makes the offer a special offer for a non-production item.

Not sure if I explained that well. Of course, we plan on making the Arc6 past the first 100, but they are likely to have a different LED in them. Lumileds just won't say when they can ship more K2s. So I must use something else. I have protos here with P4s and they aren't as bright or have as nice of a beam. The newer U2s might be as good or better, but I haven't received any of those yet. 

I know that auctioning the 100 would likely put them in display cases instead of being used as tools. Mine is being used as a tool at least. Besides, most normal people should wait for the regular production light (after the first 100).

The last time we sold a limited product at a cheap price, spectulators snatched them up and turned around and resold them for significantly more. Most people not only had to pay more anyways but they were now buying from a relative stranger (we limited orders to one a piece but this just created dozens of speculators now selling to our end user). CIS did not spent a lot of money developing this light just to see speculators cash in for doing almost no work. 

Sure it is impressive to see 100 lights sell quickly on a website. 

How do I know for certain that those speaking out against the auction are not those planning to cash in and leave us all high and dry?

Pros for an auction include: more likely sold to the end user, more likely matched with someone who really wants it, able to pick the serial number, pay down our investment more quickly, increases the chance of future projects and accelerates regular production, provides market data on a larger percentage of our target demographic and it gives the buyer the most control of all the competing systems for a product that is in short supply. There are reasons auctions have been around for millenia.

Of course, the best situation is to have enough product. But I don't make the LEDs.

So you know the situation and you want the best benefit for everyone, not just a few people. Think about it. 

btw, got the release candidate firmware this afternoon. testing. expanding the beta test next week. Don suggested I post some photos of the light in production, etc. Will try to upload them later this weekend.

peter


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## Wits' End (May 16, 2008)

I think Peter has given a good explanation and we should let this thread continue w/o complaints about where/how he/they are going to sell this first run. They will be collector's items and as Peter said can't be treated as production lights. EBay seems an excellent venue to sell them to me. I probably won't bid as I've gone to AA pretty much exclusively  Except for my Arc AAA that is. And another AAA light.
My inflated $.03.


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## Stillphoto (May 16, 2008)

Good stuff man, thanks. 

Wow, I just realized I paid $80 for my original arc aaa on ebay back when they had become scarce. I recall some going for over $100. This while Peter was figuring out what he was going to do because arc was done.


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## toby_pra (May 16, 2008)

thanks for your kind and offen words peter


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## SaturnNyne (May 16, 2008)

Gransee said:


> The reason is that the K2TF LED is rare...*I want these to go to the right people. People who really value and want this product.* If I maximize the paring of product to person, then I will maximize the satisfaction for the product.


Who are these people who are right to own these lights? It seems like the kind of person who would be willing and able to spend the most to acquire one would be...



Gransee said:


> I know that auctioning the 100 would likely put them in display cases instead of being used as tools...most normal people should wait for the regular production light (after the first 100).


Oh, collectors, you realized that too.

As someone who appreciates lights primarily for their utilitarian purpose of projecting illumination into darkness, I'm a little offended by the idea that a light possessing the led best suited to its purpose of illuminating is going to be regarded as a light better suited to sitting unused on a shelf next to a dozen other tubes of aluminum and titanium, _because_ it contains the rare part that makes it more worthy of use than the more pedestrian versions that will follow. When I first heard the talk of wanting to match the lights to the right owner, I interpreted it as meaning the lights should go to those who will put them in their pockets and use them as the EDC light they're designed to be, as the designer himself uses his. I don't like the idea that what CIS _did_ spend its money on was putting currently state of the art, fully-functional leds inside works of limited edition shelf art for the highest bidder, and then releasing a version that functions possibly less desirably to be the approved model for actual use as a flashlight.



Gransee said:


> The last time we sold a limited product at a cheap price


But this light is not by any means cheap. Perhaps previous products were sold at less than the perceived value to many users (making it a "bargain"), so some took advantage. Based on all that's been said by both sides about the price of this light, it sounds like it will not be a bargain and, in fact, will already be around the limit of what the market sees as acceptable. Less of a perfect target for speculators?

I understand the problem of speculators and it's good to guard against it, but will making the initial purchaser fight for it and likely pay more for it eliminate the problem? Or will it only raise the price they have to turn around and sell it for a few months down the road when some poor desperate fool regrets not getting one the first time around?

If it's really a major concern, the only way I can see to actually minimize profiteering is by doing what many here wanted to begin with: sell the first 100 on here, one per member, maybe with a minimum membership period to prevent someone from making multiple accounts/identities to buy through.

That said, I recognize the validity in some of your other points favoring an auction and I don't think ebaying them would necessarily be the wrong thing for you to do, though it is certainly a less tasteful method and a method less suited to the selfish interests of many of us who would like to acquire the light. Whatever is decided, I hope this all goes well for you and you get a satisfactory return for the product you've invested so much time, money, and thought into. However, I can't help but feel that (money aside) I'm the right kind of person to own and use this light, but an auction will decrease the chances of this light finding its way to people like me. Hopefully I'll have the good fortune (and willingness to deplete my fortune) to snatch one of these away from a more rightful owner and run a few batteries through it...


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## fresnorich (May 16, 2008)

Does anyone else find post #887 to be offensive, or is it just me?


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## olrac (May 16, 2008)

fresnorich said:


> Does anyone else find post #887 to be offensive, or is it just me?



No, but then I'm not PMSing

I had to take the cheap joke, sorry!

I'll be here all week, try the veal and tip your waitress!


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## MorpheusT1 (May 16, 2008)

As a collector and a User i understand what Peter is saying.
I think he deserves to earn some on the first initial lights even though it may not be much.
Using ebay will loure out the people that will pay the most.Is that so bad...after two years of developing the light(maybe even more) i think mr Gransee needs to get payed for his work.


I would gladly pay extra so that others can benefit later at a more normalized price.
I am by no means rich but i do apriciate a good wine every once in a while.And i think it is time to sit back and enjoy some real soon.

Whiners...
Give the man a break.
He deserves it for working his *** off so we can get a uber cool gadget and Tool.
at what cost...Blood sweat and probably tears after reading some of the offensive posts here.

Benny


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## SaturnNyne (May 16, 2008)

MorpheusT1 said:


> As a collector and a User i understand what Peter is saying.
> I think he deserves to earn some on the first initial lights even though it may not be much.
> Using ebay will loure out the people that will pay the most.Is that so bad...


Nope, not so bad. If you read all of the text you quoted, I already agreed with you (after expressing my emotion/desire-based selfish reaction as an appreciator, collector (small time), and user of flashlights), so I'm not sure why you're trying to disagree with me now.


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## MorpheusT1 (May 16, 2008)

Im not totally disagreeing with you.
Im just making a point and quoting you was the closest post with some levitation in it.

If that makes any sense...


I`ll remove the quotes if you want.


Benny


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## SaturnNyne (May 16, 2008)

MorpheusT1 said:


> Im not totally disagreeing with you.
> Im just making a point and quoting you was the closest post with some levitation in it.
> 
> If that makes any sense...
> ...


It'd be nice if you removed it or edited it down to just what you think applies here, since I don't think I really represent well the attitude you're critical of, but I'm not too concerned or offended about it so you can do what you like.

Mainly, I'm just deeply honored that you think my post has levitation! I have no idea what that means in this context! But it sounds fantastic! Thank you.


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## wolverine1 (May 16, 2008)

After all I have read and all the purchases of lights I have made, I personally think the Ebay idea is a good one.

Thanks,

Rick


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## BentHeadTX (May 16, 2008)

I don't buy things from Ebay
This is one of my "universal truths" so the Arc6 is dead to me. I do buy things from CPF and was hoping sometime in the future an Arc AAA (w/K2/Cree/P4) running two levels would be offered. 
I will enjoy my Arc AAA/AA for many years as shelf queens are easy on the HA-III. After all it is a piece of history and brings me back to the days of wonder with P ranked Luxeons. Every time I look at them, it brings a smile to my face to see how far we have gone but have lost a few things along the way. 
What no Arc LS? Since my lighting is more tool and bicycle oriented, the LS never made sense to me as I use NiMH AAA/AA. The Arc AAA was the thing for me and I modded minimags back in the day. My personal choice and another "universal truth". 

Peter, do what you will with those 100 lights. Get the "revenge of the Arc4" out of your system and update the Arc AAA. Love my LF2X AAA so take a look at that one closely... The target keeps moving and I wonder if you are mixing the Arc6 lessons learned with a new AAA? 
Then again, we have been asking for an Arc AAA XLR (extra long runtime), it has been at least a year or so? Maybe by Christmas the new AAA's will roll out...


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## schiesz (May 16, 2008)

MorpheusT1 said:


> ...after two years of developing the light(maybe even more) i think mr Gransee needs to get payed for his work.


Why do I feel like people just aren't getting my point here? 

While I know nothing about the particular arrangement between ARC, CIS, and Peter Gransee, I am pretty sure contractors typically get paid for their work. If not, other contracts might need to be pursued.


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## jch79 (May 16, 2008)

fresnorich said:


> Does anyone else find post #887 to be offensive, or is it just me?



It's not just you.. I found it in poor taste as well.


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## greenLED (May 17, 2008)

J!!
They got you on a diet now!? I was hoping you'd drop by the Boca burgers thread the other day.


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## jch79 (May 17, 2008)

greenLED said:


> J!!
> They got you on a diet now!? I was hoping you'd drop by the Boca burgers thread the other day.



Hey my brother! :wave: Just doing my part to save the planet! :sick2: :laughing:

Boca Burgers thread?!? :thinking: Where've I been?  Time to go read!

:tinfoil:john


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## Groundhog66 (May 17, 2008)

MOST of the complaints regarding this project could have been avoided if Peter had not announced his intentions 2 years too early. Just a load of CRAP to pump everyone up about the possibility of a new Arc, only to make lame A$$ excuses why he should do some silly Ebay sale to recoup his losses on this project. Seriously, if you drag your feet you get left behind. He wouldn't be the only person to loose his A$$ on a business venture, why does he/they have to kick us in the balls because of the mistakes he/they made when designing this light. How fancy does it have to be, most of us are happy with a simple design/function. Oooooo, let me have the option to hook it up to my PC and program it.......yeah right.....that is worth waiting for. Peter, get all your new business partners together and take turns jamming the long awaited Arc6 up your A$$ so you know how it feels.

PS - All these different Arc AAA variations were a joke, hope you put the profits into your 401K because it's looking like you might need it.....


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## Crenshaw (May 17, 2008)

i am just happy that there will be production models beyond the first 100, am i understanding it right? the only difference is that the LEDs will be differnt?

cos if thats the case, this light by its nvery design, should be easy to swap the led out later on should we choose to?

and another question, wat of reflector? peter, will you have differnt reflectors for differnt LEDs?

Crenshaw


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## Groundhog66 (May 17, 2008)

Crenshaw said:


> i am just happy that there will be production models beyond the first 100, am i understanding it right? the only difference is that the LEDs will be differnt?
> 
> cos if thats the case, this light by its nvery design, should be easy to swap the led out later on should we choose to?
> 
> ...




If you believe anything you have been told up to now, I have a bridge to sell you......

The light isn't even a reality yet, and you are asking about future upgrades already?:sick2:


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## schiesz (May 17, 2008)

Groundhog66 said:


> Oooooo, let me have the option to hook it up to my PC and program it.......yeah right.....that is worth waiting for.



This is actually what I have been wanting to see the whole time from this light. IMO, this is what makes this light worth the wait, if anything does.

I am just afraid that it will get released, and this will be passed right over. I'd really appreciate it if Peter could tell us if the software will be released when the ebay sales commence. How do you connect it to the PC? I don't see a USB plug on there... Will there be a USB body released later? Is there a timeline or any guarantee that the software and connection option will ever be released? 

I was just waiting for the lights to be released and look for the details then, but I just don't see these details being covered in the sales listing. Especially when the only way to get any info on this light is a link to this thread (which also just might explain why CPF members feel slighted when it is suggested that the initial sales will be completely separate from the site).


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## Groundhog66 (May 17, 2008)

schiesz said:


> This is actually what I have been wanting to see the whole time from this light. IMO, this is what makes this light worth the wait, if anything does.
> 
> I am just afraid that it will get released, and this will be passed right over. I'd really appreciate it if Peter could tell us if the software will be released when the ebay sales commence. How do you connect it to the PC? I don't see a USB plug on there... Will there be a USB body released later? Is there a timeline or any guarantee that the software and connection option will ever be released?
> 
> I was just waiting for the lights to be released and look for the details then, but I just don't see these details being covered in the sales listing. Especially when the only way to get any info on this light is a link to this thread (which also just might explain why CPF members feel slighted when it is suggested that the initial sales will be completely separate from the site).




Schiesz, this light is still a wet dream for us, there is NO WAY it will ever meet the expectations of the loyal. My uneducated guess is that it will not exceed the Arc First Run, which happens to be my favorite light of ALL TIME. I certainly hope I am wrong, but this hype over the Arc6 along with the non-production of said light pretty much ruins it for me.....yeah, I'm bitter:green:


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## Drywolf (May 17, 2008)

schiesz said:


> I'd really appreciate it if Peter could tell us if the software will be released when the ebay sales commence. How do you connect it to the PC? I don't see a USB plug on there... Will there be a USB body released later?


 
Remember this?

#*288 (12-11-2007)*
*PC Interface Software*
I won't be offering this right away, but instead after the light has been shipping for at least a couple of months. This is because the software is not done and the getting the light ready takes priority. The software does allow the levels in the 8-level pool to be adjusted. The software uses a USB interface to link with the flashlight. The flashlight does not have a USB interface (no room) but has an I2C type interface which connects to a interface card we provide which converts to the USB protocol. This card also has some other functions that are used for testing the flashlight boards in our production. That function is completed and is already being used. It is the user software that will be delayed.


Maybe two EBay wins to get the whole package.


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## N162E (May 17, 2008)

Sigman said:


> I'm an old "ARCY" from way back as well. I've kept from posting in any of the ARC6 threads (oh there may be a post or two?), as I'm fairly sure it's not in my future.
> 
> Maybe Peter would at least consider a CPF lottery, IF all of the 1st (and only?) run could be sold here?
> 
> ...


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## Stillphoto (May 17, 2008)

It actually wouldnt need a usb sort of plug to be programmed. 

If it's anything like the programmable microcontrollers available out there, it just needs some contact patches somewhere (most likely on the back side of the head) that could mate up to either a base unit or a special serial cable.

All speculation of course.


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## paulr (May 17, 2008)

Yes that's what I2C is, more or less. Here's an article I just googled which says how to use your pc's video card as an I2C interface: http://www.paintyourdragon.com/uc/i2c/index.html

I think this PC capability is most interesting if the complete source code for the light firmware is released, so users can mod it, add new UI features, etc.


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## Fathom (May 18, 2008)

paulr said:


> I think this PC capability is most interesting if the complete source code for the light firmware is released, so users can mod it, add new UI features, etc.


I have not read that the "user" version of PC interface will do more than change the pool of settings, but it has not been talked about much.

I would really, really like to see "open firmware" on a flashlight with Arc6's hardware capability. That surely would be in the *spirit of CPF*. And I think a *true nitch market* with a *dedicated community and following*, and also be a *hot bed of UI innovation*.

I have modded my old mp3 player to the point the GUI is unrecognizable but has exactly the functionality I want. In part because of the hackability this old player (not made for a long time) still sells for MSRP on eBay.

MPU devices can have a "warrantee void" switch before hacking. This also generates repeat sells (as they become bricked by the overly adventurous or careless). 

* I hope the most excellent FAQs are expanded soon to include the Arc6 (before the sale?).* I don't think they have been updated in years, and the cause of much Q&A repetition. This massive thread is getting hard to search, and some facts are outdated (the "flight simulator" program for instance).
- what will the capabilities of the PC interface have? screen shots?
- will the firmware be open? or encrypted allowing on certain settings to be altered?
- how involved will changing the LED be as newer more efficient LEDs are developed in coming years? All I remember is do-able but not as easy as it could be.
- will the firmware update policy be the same as for Arc4?

[take your time; I'll be in the back country far from civilization, phones, electricity, toilets, etc until May 23]


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## N162E (May 18, 2008)

How about a shot of the lights in production. I have asked for this several times only to be ignored. Peter says Don asked for it so now he will do it this weekend. Weekend is almost over. Show us the lights.


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## Gransee (May 19, 2008)

I like the idea of open firmware. However, I need to be careful how I might do this. The factory firmware cost tens of thousands to develop and its routines can be ported to other processors. So I have no plans on giving our competitors free stuff, but you guys can do whatever you want with stuff you write on your own of course.

And for serious coding, you would need the schematic and some knowledge on how internal peripheals are being used. Some of this information might be helpful to competitors as well. I probably won't post that either. 

One possibility is to release a spec on the EEPROM protocol. This determines the brightness of each level and the temperature fallback value. I will have to give this more thought.

peter


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## ViReN (May 19, 2008)

oops... duplicate post...


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## ViReN (May 19, 2008)

Gransee said:


> I like the idea of open firmware. The Arc6 has a 10-pin connector on the rear of the pcb. Later on, I can provide the pin out and you can connect a standard Atmel STK500 programmer using an adapter you built. We may also provide an adapter at a later time. The processor is the Tiny84. The communication protocol is not I2C (the tiny84 does not natively support I2C) but is similiar. You then can erase the flash and program it to do whatever you want. Of course, if you fry the board, this is not a manufacturing defect and will not be covered under our warranty. If you want to reflash with the factory code, we would do that here and charge for our time.
> 
> peter



Quoting from the web page


> 8K Bytes of In-System Self-Programmable Flash, 512 Bytes In-System Programmable EEPROM, 512 Bytes Internal SRAM. 8-bit and 16-bit timer/counters with PWM, 10-bit ADC, USI-Universal Serial Interface, On-chip Temperature Sensor. debugWIRE for on-chip-debug. Up to 20 MIPS throughput at 20 MHz. 1.8 - 5.5 V operation.



Oh My.... there was a time when a 3.07 MHz 8085 desktop PC was a dream.... fast forward 20 years...... and now we have 20 MHz processor on a fre8king FLASHLIGHT !....

PETER.... U are spoiling us :nana:


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## Gransee (May 19, 2008)

Some pics taken over the past couple of years...


When I start a design I produce a few sketches. Here's some samples. 

The drawer design that was later rejected after prototypes were tested.







Alternate drawer design





Drop in charger. Idea was dropped after early prototypes showed problems with coupling efficiency. 





Dual inductor. Also dropped after prototyped.





weapon mount. put on hold for now. 





Variation with single level and kroll switch. "Double positive" is a term I used to describe how the force of the water pressure on the front seal and the battery on the pcb strengthen the design. Compare to a double negative like the first LS. 





peter


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## Gransee (May 19, 2008)

Next, CAD drawings are produce. A lot of the mechanical CAD was produced by Don. The electrical CAD (layout, gerbers, etc) were produce by a contract shop. 

drawer design with single inductor





single inductor, kilroy switch on ng sleave









guarded sleave





In this design, the inductor comes up next to the LED to save space. Real bugger to design and build though. I paid a guy to model the pcb in cad so Don could check for collisions. 









A small representation of the electronics. I don't want to post as much about it since it is more competitive than the mechanical design. The electronics represent about 10x more dev cost/time than the mechanicals. 

Me calling out a change in an old design. 





Schematic for interface board





peter


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## Gransee (May 19, 2008)

Then the prototypes are made..

split inductor





drawer





peter


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## toby_pra (May 19, 2008)

Oh Peter that looks beautiful!


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## Gransee (May 19, 2008)

zillions of tests are run.

lumen tests in sphere









electrical tests









thermal tests





hopefully nothing NDA in this photo... Temperature fallback testing arc6s on the left and running a test for another company at the same time on the right. 





btw, here's an earlier version of the PC interface software. It is now obsolete since I switched processors due to a different problem (not with the interface) identified later in testing. 





peter


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## smokelaw1 (May 19, 2008)

Buncha lights in that second to last pic!
Man, I still want one, bad!


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## xcel730 (May 19, 2008)

I'll take the first one to the left


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## Gransee (May 19, 2008)

Then to production...

Our in-house machining









Arc6 parts inventory





Final Assy area early in the morning. Clean room (hepa and humidty controlled)





Some assy on the first 100..

glueing the LED





completed pcbs ready for testing





A small group of units I assembled for advanced testing





temperature calibration





closeup of how the inductor is up next to the led (Don recommended I post these to show tight and difficult things are). 









optical assembly with pcb





peter


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## ViReN (May 19, 2008)

:bow: ... simply amazing


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## smokelaw1 (May 19, 2008)

And then comes the picture showing the first 100 ready and complete....are we there yet? are we there yet? are we there yet? (no reeference to the flshlight enthusiast by a similar name intended)

PS- amazing picutes! Thank you for sharing.


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## toby_pra (May 19, 2008)

This were the pictures i was waiting for sooo long!:thumbsup:


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## smokelaw1 (May 19, 2008)

30 body tubes per egg carton.....
I see AT LEAST 8 egg cartons full of body tubes.....

Methinks the first 100 is only the start.....


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## houtex (May 19, 2008)

The progress pics are comforting....i sooooo will be getting at least 2 of these.


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## dmdrewitt (May 19, 2008)

Wow!! Amazing pictures :thumbsup: - Can't wait :twothumbs


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## Daekar (May 19, 2008)

Wow Peter, talk about going above and beyond! I can't tell you how much I appreciate all the effort you went through to post this, not to mention all the testing and trouble you went to that we would've never known about or appreciated if you hadn't shared with us. I had no idea this light was so advanced. I had started to cross it off of my "to-buy" list, but it's solidly at the top with the Optimus now, and I don't even like 123 cells! It DOES look like the perfect EDC, I can't believe you fit all that circuitry in such a tiny space! 

No need to say "I told you so" to those who doubted that more than 100 would be produced! :nana::thumbsup:


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## Stillphoto (May 19, 2008)

Thank you very much Peter, I think that will put out a few fires. Also thanks for going above and beyond with all of those posts (from drawings and testing to the current state).


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## Lebkuecher (May 19, 2008)

Now that's what I call some posts.:wow:

Thanks Peter


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## SaturnNyne (May 19, 2008)

YES! Thank you so much for sharing, Peter. Those photos, especially the parts inventory and group of assembled units, were exactly the kind of thing I was hoping to see.


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## KeyGrip (May 19, 2008)

Wow is right. Much more complex than what I was expecting.


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## this_is_nascar (May 19, 2008)

Some pretty damn impressive pictures. Thanks for sharing. For those looking to land one of these puppies, you better start your 2nd mortgage application now.


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## greenLED (May 19, 2008)

NOW WE'RE TALKING!!
:rock:
Thanks for sharing, Peter.


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## Toons (May 19, 2008)

Wow!

Words are hard to find. Thanks much for sharing Peter.
Would have been nice to see some along the way. 
Of course that would have created other issues...

Good Luck Peter. :thumbsup:

Toons


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## Crenshaw (May 19, 2008)

with pictures like that, advertising is not neccesary

Crenshaw


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## iconoclast (May 19, 2008)

smokelaw1 said:


> Methinks the first 100 is only the start.....



If I'm not mistaken, this is supposed to be a "production" light. You know, kind of like that K2 LED it uses. :candle:
From the sound of things, it seems there might be a slight gap in availability between 100 and 101 however...

Hey Peter, I don't think anyone here is interested in buying one of these as shown. You'd better include that PC interface with each one if you want them to sell.  

Nice to see the pictures, even (or perhaps especially) for the designs that didn't work. Must mean we're getting close.


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## NoFair (May 20, 2008)

Thank you for the pictures Peter. 

Hope the K2's won't put too much of a spanner in the works..

Sverre


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## Haz (May 20, 2008)

speechless...


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## datiLED (May 20, 2008)

The LS6 page has been updated on the Arc site!


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## smokelaw1 (May 20, 2008)

HeeHee....I mean...uh, I am excited in a rational and manly way.


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## datiLED (May 20, 2008)

smokelaw1 said:


> HeeHee....I mean...uh, I am excited in a rational and manly way.


 
:laughing:


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## xcel730 (May 20, 2008)

I guess it's going to be available for sale soon ... counting the days.


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## N162E (May 20, 2008)

Me, my positive support and anxiously waiting are ALL back!! :goodjob:


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## toby_pra (May 20, 2008)

> N162E*Re: The new Arc-LS*
> Me, my positive support and anxiously waiting are ALL back!! :goodjob:


 
me too:sweat:


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## skalomax (May 20, 2008)

Oh boy!


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## nokturnal (May 20, 2008)

i wonder when the 101 and up will be available for us not so blessed few?


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## Toons (May 20, 2008)

Just saw the website :wow:

OooWeeee!!!
My personal plan has been to pass on one of the first 100.
May have to have the wife hide the laptop for a while now. 

Toons :sweat:


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## adnj (May 20, 2008)

I am looking forward to the Ebay auction. 100 lights. 100 auctions. All by serial number. And of course some of the top bidders will not honor their bids but that is an excellent idea to give a chance for anyone with the right amount of cash to get what they want. And then do whatever they want with them. 

Unless the first buyers are Beta Testers, I say go with the auction and recoup your investment.


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## FrogmanM (May 20, 2008)

Now that is one HECK of an update there sir!

Mayo


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## nekomane (May 20, 2008)

As a long time Arc 'fanboy' and collector, I will scramble to get one of the first 100. 
If I miss out, so be it.

As a flashlight user in need of upgrading his EDC, I hope more than the initial 100 will be available soon after. Doesn't have to be the latest greatest? K2.
I want an Arc6 without worrying about loss or damage, assured that I can purchase a replacement any time.

Exciting to witness these developments. Like the good ol' days. Thanks Peter


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## The Coach (May 20, 2008)

xcel730 said:


> I guess it's going to be available for sale soon ... counting the days.



IIRC the new AAA was on the site for a while before it was available. :thinking: I do like the pictures and options though. :thumbsup:


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## tpchan (May 20, 2008)

Silly question about the LS6 web page -- Why does the word "sleave" appear so much in the pictures? Do they by any chance mean "sleeve" ??

Sleave -- Webster's says: "The knotted or entangled part of silk or thread".


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## Crenshaw (May 20, 2008)

my question is, why are there 4 TBD prices?

*1 Arc6 with Guarded Sleave and Titanium Clip
**2 Arc6 with No-Guard Sleave
**3 Guarded Sleave and Titanium Clip only
**4 No-Guard Sleave only
*
wouldnt 1 and 3 be the same? 2,4 be the same?
unless it means, 3 and 4 are just "battery tubes" ?
as for ebay, if it comes to that, ill probably bid, but i doubt i would win..

Crenshaw


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## tnuckels (May 20, 2008)

tpchan said:


> Why does the word "sleave" appear so much in the pictures?



Doh! At least it only there 9 times. :green:

So, it appears that the official name will be the *Arc6*, sans LS. I must have missed the upcoming "announcement" that was hinted at a while back. That, or maybe the name just slipped quietly into existence.
I still like the name _Arc Ω_, :candle: and Prince would have agreed, had Peter ever rung him up to ask.


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## Lumenz (May 21, 2008)

Crenshaw said:


> my question is, why are there 4 TBD prices?
> 
> *1 Arc6 with Guarded Sleave and Titanium Clip
> **2 Arc6 with No-Guard Sleave
> ...



The prices wouldn't be the same. The first two are the Arc6 light (LED and bezel) and the last two are the sleeve only. Err... "sleave".


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## mikes1 (May 21, 2008)

I believe I have come up with a viable alternative to eBay I got the idea from Ferrari (so it must be good right:laughing If you want to own one of the more exotic Ferraris you have to be a proven owner of other Ferraris. Peter has already said that he expects the first one hundred ARC6`s to go to collectors.
So to qualify you have to post a verifiable picture of your current Arc collection. This should prevent carpet bagging
I don’t mind paying a premium for one of the first one hundred so Peter can set a price he thinks is fair. I may be counting my self out here because mine is quite small (Arc collection) If there are not enough applicants then it’s off to the bay for the rest
I don’t expect this will go down well with some but please remember it is just a possible alternative

Mike


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## monkeyboy (May 21, 2008)

For me, the user interface is one of the most important aspects of a flashlight. Can someone sum up the operation of the new Arc6? I'm a little cofused and don't really want to read through 1000 posts to try and work it out.

1) How do you switch the light on and off and flick through the different levels?

2) What are the drive levels?

3) Are we getting the PC programmable interface or not?

4) Is there an annoying strobe mode?

Thanks


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## Thujone (May 21, 2008)

From the pictures there appears to be a battery tray. Then the sleeve slides over the tray and locks into position. Then you have your choice in 'sleeves'.


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## tnuckels (May 21, 2008)

monkeyboy said:


> 1) How do you switch the light on and off and flick through the different levels?
> 2) What are the drive levels?
> 3) Are we getting the PC programmable interface or not?
> 4) Is there an annoying strobe mode?



1. IIRC, there are two physical levels (PL), one “virtual” level (VL), and you can activate the three via the tail plunger or front bezel twist. Levels can be set to one of several preset drive currents. Plunger: push a little=PL1, push some more=PL2, from off push fast through PL1 & PL2=VL. Bezel: twist a little=PL1, twist some more=PL2, from off twist fast through PL1 and PL2=VL. I’m sure there’s more, but I think that covers the basics.

2. I don’t believe the values of the pool of drive levels has been released, though I think there was a set number of levels (7 or 9???), but I don’t recall how many.

3. I don’t think the PC interface will be available initially.

4. Yes! Peter will personally be locking all the levels in YOUR light to: strobe, pulse, blink, wink, flash, twinkle, throb, palpate, and flicker. :nana: Actually, I think there is a strobe mode, but if you don’t like it you don’t have to use it for one of you 3 active levels.

Hope I got it right, and for what it’s worth, hope this helps.


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## Crenshaw (May 21, 2008)

battery tray.. should have read more closely...

hmmm....interesting, its not just a body and head, there is a tray invovlved..

Crenshaw


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## monkeyboy (May 21, 2008)

Thanks Tnuckels. I think I get it now, sort of. 

So how would you set the levels without the computer interface or would you just have to specify the levels on ordering and wait for the interface to become available?

If you set VL to the same value as PL2 do you effectively have just a 2 level light?


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## schiesz (May 21, 2008)

Crenshaw said:


> ..interesting, its not just a body and head, there is a tray invovlved.



Isn't this just he same as the piston?


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## tnuckels (May 21, 2008)

I believe that the levels will be preset from the factory at the same settings for all shipped lights, (read: no custom ordered levels) in a pool of X number to choose from. You enter the selection mode through some sequence of steps (involves some arcane language and bloodletting), then thumb tap dance you way to setting PL1=X current, PL2=Y current, and VL=Z current, then save and exit to use the light. So yes, you could set two or more levels to the same output making it a 1 or 2 level light.

When, and if, the PC interface becomes available it think it will be mostly to customize the presets to an individuals personal preference, but the may be more to it than that, like setting timings between levels (like how fast is "fast" when you plunge past PL1 & PL2 to get to VL), pulse rates, etc., but I could be overstating here.


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## Unforgiven (May 21, 2008)

Part 2


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