# 'Hybrid' or regular NiMH AA/AAA rechargeables for headlamps?



## RMS (Sep 3, 2009)

Hi everyone,

I'm wondering what the experts here would suggest for rechargeable batteries in headlamps. I've been told by friendly users of CPF that AA will last much longer (due to higher capacity, I've learned). I was doing more research and found that there's a new type of NiMH, called a 'hybrid.' It apparently doesn't drain when not in use. Has anyone used these or can anyone say if there's a notable difference or tell me what the best battery there is for headlamps (are headlamps high or low drain?)??

Here's a link to the article I just read about the new and old NiMHs: http://www.metaefficient.com/rechar...-rechargeable-batteries-battery-chargers.html
So I'm trying to decide between the 2000mAh eneloop (hybrid), 2000 mAh Uniross Hybrios, or the regular 2500mAh NiMH Energizers. 

Any help would be great! Probable headlamp uses are the ZebraLight H50 or H501W (or Petzl Myo XP/RXP). thanks!


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## jch79 (Sep 3, 2009)

RMS,

It all depends on your usage.

Hybrid NiMH cells (like Sanyo Eneloops) are great if you only use the headlamp intermittently, and it sits for a long time.

Standard NiMH (like Sanyo Industrials) are great for heavy usage in a short period of time.

And, of course, if you're in cold weather, Lithium cells are recommended.

The above rough guidelines aren't exclusive to headlamps - I don't know why headlamps would be any different? :shrug:

You should read the Flashlight Electronics - Batteries Included sub-forum here on CPF. Particularily the "Threads of Interest" thread, which gives a lot of great links, including runtime tests of various NiMH's. That forum has answers-a-plenty, to questions very close to yours. And heck, search for all the threads that CPF'r "Silverfox" has started - Tom's knowledge and tests are invaluable to the CPF community.

:thumbsup: john

Edit: :welcome:


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## RMS (Sep 3, 2009)

Hi John,
Thanks for the information and your patience. I am far from an expert on these things, so your advice and the SilverFox tests (if I understand the table) are very helpful. Here's the thread that has the tables sorted by watt/hour: https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/79302

The table says that Sanyo 2700s are the best, though I've read the Industrials last longer (more cycles) and are more resistant to damage. 

I plan to use the headlamp on a daily basis, for between 1-10 hours per night (depends on the patient; I'm going on a rural medical mission). I guess I shouldn't worry about the Hybrids and just stick with regular NiMH (maybe just Energizers as the Sanyo Industrials could be hard to find)?

Any other comments or info would be great. Thanks!


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## Linger (Sep 3, 2009)

The usual recommendation is Eneloops, but that's a great table John linked for you there. Made me think about getting some different cells myself. Hopefully your results match the graphs.
(beware some things are just advertisers terms, some cells are cross branded)


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## yellow (Sep 3, 2009)

Arent You mixing some things up?

AAs are "better" than AAAs, because they house more energy and because they are a more "common" size. But they are bigger.

Eneloops are Hybrids. I have both Eneloops and the Sanyo Hybrios and they are fully equal. imho matter of price/availability what to take.
And I - as well as anyone here since eneloops were introduced and tested here - recommend them over 2700s, especially for Your use.

Maybe get a 4 pack of the "better" ordinary NiMhs and one of the 2000 low discharge type.
With Led lights You probably wont feel the difference as strong as with older incan headlamps, but I am sure You will notice.


but, one thought: the main advantage of Ni-Mh AAs (no matter if LSDs or ordinary type) is, that You can purchase that sized primary cells in most any shop most anywhere in the world. And when Your light runs on these cells, thats a bonus if You might not be able to recharge Your rechargeables.
if that is not important (= if recharging is possible often), way to go in the moment is *Li-Ion*.
f.e. a Streamlight Argo HP, cram a 17650 Li-Ion cell inside, have a 2nd one as spare, done.


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## jch79 (Sep 3, 2009)

yellow said:


> I have both Eneloops and the Sanyo Hybrios and they are fully equal. imho matter of price/availability what to take.



I don't thinkHybrios are made by Sanyo, they're made by Uniross. Mebbe it was just a mis-type.



yellow said:


> And I - as well as anyone here since eneloops were introduced and tested here - recommend them over 2700s, especially for Your use.



Since he's possibly using his headlamp up to 10 hours in a night, the extra ~700mAh in the Sanyo Industrial 2700mAh over the 2000mAh Eneloops _might_ come in handy though. :shrug: I'm an architectural photographer, and while I always keep Eneloops in my flashes (and find them perfect for small/quick jobs), if I'm going on a big shoot, I load 'em with freshly-charged 2700 Sanyo Industrials, and find that they give a little bit extra. And the Eneloops come along for the ride as excellent backups.

Whichever you pick, you'll be happy! We're splitting hairs with runtimes, and like yellow said, everyone recommends Eneloops, because they're proven to perform really well.

:thumbsup: john


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## Marduke (Sep 3, 2009)

I don't think anyone mentioned it, but do NOT get the Energizer NiMH cells. They are absolute garbage.


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## flatline (Sep 3, 2009)

How well are the Duracell NiMH cells regarded?

Are they garbage like Energizer?


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## jch79 (Sep 3, 2009)

flatline said:


> How well are the Duracell NiMH cells regarded?
> 
> Are they garbage like Energizer?



flatline,

Click on the link to SilverFox's AA tests for the results (linked above by RPM)... Duracell 2650's performed very well. YMMV, as always.

:thumbsup: john


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## Marduke (Sep 3, 2009)

Duracell comes in several flavors, but most of their cells are rebranded cells from someone else, an are usually pretty good.


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## Woods Walker (Sep 3, 2009)

jch79 said:


> flatline,
> 
> Click on the link to SilverFox's AA tests for the results (linked above by RPM)... Duracell 2650's performed very well. YMMV, as always.
> 
> :thumbsup: john


 
Yea I had good luck with the 2650's. Use Energizer 900 mAh in my headlamps and 1XAAA flashlights when not using the Duraloops. They worked very well too. The Energizer 2500's are junk.


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## yellow (Sep 4, 2009)

> I don't thinkHybrios are made by Sanyo, they're made by Uniross. Mebbe it was just a mis-type.


correct, Uniross Hybrio's, mis-type


I have long fought with "better" and LSD cells, after short use the LSDs became better.
Sure, I do not charge them every time b4 use, if that is possible the higher mAh count might make the edge
(but beware: out of every 4-pack of normal Ni-Mhs I had till now, at least one was worse than any LSD and, within short, time at least two. Thats what my charger tells)


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## MY (Sep 25, 2009)

I concur that Energizers are junk. The number of times they can be recharged without loosing their capacity is very low. I have a big box of Energizers to attest that the low discharge hybrid's capacity is maintained over much longer time and negates the extra mAh that some high capacity NiMhs start with and quickly loose.


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## cave dave (Oct 10, 2009)

Every > 2500 cell I've tried (and I've tried all the top brands) were all junk after a couple months of hard use. And by junk I mean they would not hold their charge for more than a month, often only a few days. I have had Duracell 2650's that were bad straight from the package. 

If you charge *used *high cap bateries and use them within a week they will have higher capacities than eneloops, but after a week or two it seems to be a crap shoot with some cells being OK and others not.

I have eneloops that are now two years old have seen many a recharge and they are still going strong. I can leave them in a headlamp for 6 mo, then pick it up and use it for hours.

I still keep some 2650's arrround in case I want to go on a charge then ride long bike ride or caving trip. But otherwise I use LSD almost exclusively. They have even replaced alkalines in some low drain devices like wireless mice and keyboard, and bicycle blinky lights.


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## uplite (Oct 10, 2009)

Here are the recent CPF tests:
*Sanyo 2700 vs Eneloop - 100 Charge Cycles Analysis*
*Sanyo 2700 vs Eneloop Discharge test @ 45, 60, 75 and 90 days*

In a nutshell, he found that:
* after 90 days on the shelf, the 2700 cells still had more capacity
* after 100 recharge cycles, the 2700 cells still had more capacity (though they were losing capacity faster)

Some folks have _speculated_ that the current Sanyo 2700 and Eneloop 2000 cells use the exact same chemistry, just with a different (thinner) separator for high capacity. This would make perfect sense for Sanyo from both manufacturing & marketing perspectives.

If this is true, the main difference between these Sanyo cells is probably their *durability*. Use the low-cap cells if you expect to knock them around or fast charge them. Use the high-cap cells if they will be treated gently.

YMMV. I agree with yellow: Get a pack of each and see what works best for you. :thumbsup:

-Jeff


p.s. Definitely AAs over AAAs. It is 100x easier to manage your spares and recharging with 1xAA versus 3xAAA. No worries about mixing cells of different charge or capacity or age.

p.p.s. I'd suggest 14500 li-ions, but according to CPF posts, the h501 does not like the higher voltage.


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## Marduke (Oct 10, 2009)

uplite said:


> If this is true, the main difference between these Sanyo cells is probably their *durability*. Use the low-cap cells if you expect to knock them around or fast charge them. Use the high-cap cells if they will be treated gently.



And lower voltage sag under load, and higher residual voltage, longer lifecycle, lower impedance, etc...


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## uplite (Oct 10, 2009)

I'm guessing that on a rural medical mission, RMS cares more about the real-world _runtime_, _longevity_, and _durability _of his batteries...

...according to Silverfox's tests, the 2700s give about 33% more runtime (watt-hours). Obvious runtime advantage.

...according to odessit's tests, the 2700s give about 20% more runtime after 100 charge-discharge cycles. Someone on that thread extrapolated to ~400 cycles before the 2000mah cells catch up. More than 1 year of charging the same cell every single day...is that long enough for this mission?

That just leaves durability...which is very difficult to test...so why not bring both types of cell? Run the high-cap 2700 cells first. If the runtime drops by ~1/3, switch over to the eneloops. :thumbsup:

This would also be a great real-world test, if RMS can find the time to post his experience! 

-Jeff


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## Marduke (Oct 11, 2009)

There are already YEARS of "real world tests" where high cap cells fall flat on their face after a very limited number of cycles, developing high internal resistance, high impedance, low voltage retention, voltage sag, and high self discharge. 

Old news...


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## uplite (Oct 11, 2009)

Marduke said:


> There are already YEARS of "real world tests" where high cap cells fall flat on their face after a very limited number of cycles, developing high internal resistance, high impedance, low voltage retention, voltage sag, and high self discharge.


I'd love to see some other tests of Sanyo Eneloops vs Sanyo 2700's, beyond the rigorous tests done by odessit and Silverfox. More data is always good. 

-Jeff


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## Marduke (Oct 11, 2009)

uplite said:


> I'd love to see some other tests of Sanyo Eneloops vs Sanyo 2700's, beyond the rigorous tests done by odessit and Silverfox. More data is always good.
> 
> -Jeff


Entire forum full of them, including the links you provided above. But it does require reading and understanding graphs, not lookin at a single number. I know that can be difficult for some.


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## jankj (Oct 12, 2009)

uplite said:


> I'm guessing that on a rural medical mission, RMS cares more about the real-world _runtime_, _longevity_, and _durability _of his batteries...
> 
> ...according to Silverfox's tests, the 2700s give about 33% more runtime (watt-hours). Obvious runtime advantage.
> 
> ...according to odessit's tests, the 2700s give about 20% more runtime after 100 charge-discharge cycles. Someone on that thread extrapolated to ~400 cycles before the 2000mah cells catch up. More than 1 year of charging the same cell every single day...is that long enough for this mission?



What I think is missing here is the fact that most cells won't be charged that regular. Let the 2700 sit for a few weeks and you have no performance gain over the LSD's. 

If your usage mimics the "laboratory" conditions (i.e. the battery never "sits around" waiting to be used) then true, the 2700 will have more capacity. Used the way you anticipate (one charge cycle every day) you'll probably be very happy with good quality 2700, and wouldn't mind exchanging them after a year or so. 

For most other users this is of purely academic interest as they will NOT see one charge cycle per day unless there is something particular light demanding going on _(flashaholic gathering, going camping or whatever)..._ Their EDC will be recharged every once in a while, their throwers hardly at all. Their running and bicycle lights will get charged each or every second time they go running or bicycling (which may or may not be that frequent). This is why LSD is the way to go for most real life usage.


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## uplite (Oct 12, 2009)

Marduke said:


> But it does require reading and understanding graphs, not lookin at a single number. I know that can be difficult for some.


I know, but if you take the time and read those tests, _you can do it!_ :thumbsup:

CPFers like silverfox and odessit have made it very easy by providing graphs and watt-hour summaries from their chargers. In that format, the numbers are easy for anyone to understand. Take a look, you'll see!

You just have to set aside any brand loyalties. For most folks, _that_ is the hard part. 




jankj said:


> What I think is missing here is the fact that most cells won't be charged that regular. Let the 2700 sit for a few weeks and you have no performance gain over the LSD's.


Actually...that is _exactly_ what odessit tested in *this thread* that I keep linking. 

He found that *after sitting on the shelf for 90 days, the 2700 cells still had 21% more power than the eneloops.*

fyi, "power" is measured in *watt-hours*, which some folks find confusing since it looks like a single number...but you calculate it from current and voltage at _many_ points along the discharge curve. marduke, feel free to PM me if you need more info on how this works. I can give you some some links to good tutorials. :twothumbs

-Jeff


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## Marduke (Oct 12, 2009)

uplite said:


> I know, but if you take the time and read those tests, _you can do it!_ :thumbsup:
> 
> CPFers like silverfox and odessit have made it very easy by providing graphs and watt-hour summaries from their chargers. In that format, the numbers are easy for anyone to understand. Take a look, you'll see!
> 
> ...



90 days for a NEW cell. Self discharge increases exponentially with increase cell life. Within a short time, most of those "high capacity" cells crap out, discharging completely in a matter of weeks, or even DAYS, not months.

Also, I suggest you actually look at those discharge graphs, and take note of the significantly higher nominal voltage of Eneloops vs the others. 

Higher nominal voltage means superior performance, and more efficient operation in boost circuits. Higher residual voltage also has the same effects. Again, Eneloops whoop all else in this department...


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## uplite (Oct 12, 2009)

Marduke said:


> 90 days for a NEW cell. Self discharge increases exponentially with increase cell life. Within a short time, most of those "high capacity" cells crap out, discharging completely in a matter of weeks, or even DAYS, not months.


marduke, I'd rather not argue. Let's just trade data. Tests & numbers. I'm an engineer, not an evangelist. 

fwiw, on-topic, the OP asked about cells he could use for _1-10 hours every night_. Sanyo makes different cells for a reason. In this scenario, _runtime_ is important. Self-discharge is not.



> Also, I suggest you actually look at those discharge graphs, and take note of the significantly higher nominal voltage of Eneloops vs the others.


Power (runtime) matters more than voltage in this case, but regardless:
Silverfox's graphs show a tiny difference in voltage at 1A, advantage eneloop. Keep in mind that his eneloop and 2700 graphs have different scales on both axes! After you normalize the graphs, it is very hard to see a difference.
Odessit's graphs show a tiny difference in voltage at 1A, advantage 2700. He put the eneloop and 2700 on the same discharge graph, so it is easy to see that the 2700 curve is slightly higher.
From a statistical perspective, the voltage difference shown in all of these tests is insignificant. The fact that they _contradict_ each other also seems to confirm that there is no real difference.
Sanyo's datasheets for these cells, when normalized to the same absolute discharge rates (mA, not C), show the eneloop 2000 and the 2700 cells have the _same_ voltage at typical currents.

As an engineer, the only way you can dispute those numbers from sanyo, silverfox, and odessit is with _more rigorous_ tests.

On a side note: If you try to pull a crazy-high current like 10A from one of these AA cells, then yes, it _will_ heat up and the differences in construction will come into play. This is a common story for any cell chemistry. When you increase capacity in the same form factor, you decrease the max discharge rate. I have walked this line many times with li-poly batteries in RC helicopters, which need max power AND min weight. But the lights we are talking about here draw just 1A from the cells. That is not even close to where these two cells diverge.

If you have more rigorous (and current!) tests or numbers comparing these two cells, really, I would love to see 'em! I'm not trying to fight, not at all!  Just gathering more data to add to my own experience with various brands and generations of these cells.

-Jeff


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## Marduke (Oct 12, 2009)

uplite said:


> marduke, I'd rather not argue. Let's just trade data. Tests & numbers. I'm an engineer, not an evangelist.
> 
> fwiw, on-topic, the OP asked about cells he could use for _1-10 hours every night_. Sanyo makes different cells for a reason. In this scenario, _runtime_ is important. Self-discharge is not.
> 
> ...




As an engineer, I can also say that overall performance does not rely on a SINGLE value, by MANY aspects, of which the Eneloop is by far superior. All the above data CLEARLY shows that (if you are capable of reading and UNDERSTANDING the graphs). Nominal voltage and residual voltage are both significantly higher for Eneloop under the same discharge. Internal resistance and impedance are LOWER. Life cycle and performance over life cycle are HIGHER. These are all PROVEN over 4 years of testing.

Think of it this way, which setup gives the superior performance:

A Ford Pinto with a 50 gallon drum strapped to the roof for a gas tank (the high capacity cell), or a Toyota Corolla (Eneloop).

Sure, the Pinto would travel further, but absolutely no other aspect of it's performance would be in any way "better".

But you want data, let's trade data!!

On your point #1, yes I know the ordinate is scaled differently. But let's plot each at a 2A discharge for giggles on the same ordinate. I did a quick digitize of Silverfox's data:







These are for freshly charged cells. Given that Eneloop has much higher residual voltage, the deltaV between the curves INCREASES over time. This data is clearly shown in Sanyo's own data, as well as easily observable by hundreds of CPF'ers. This delta also increases with age, as the Eneloops maintain consistant performance, while high cap cells develope higher internal resistance and higher impedance and have a lower and lower nominal voltage. Again, hundreds of CPF'ers agree...

Figure 8:
http://www.eneloop.info/fileadmin/EDITORS/ENELOOP/ARTICLES/Teraoka_Article_EN.pdf

On your 4th point, I'm going to call you out again for misinformation. Sanyo's data clearly contridicts you:
https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/219301 
http://www.eneloop.ca/eneloop_en_why.html#higher 

In particular:
http://www.eneloop.info/home/performance-details/capacity.html
http://www.eneloop.info/home/performance-details/voltage.html

Edit:
More data and information, both quantitative and qualitative. Try reading past the first post... Lots of valuable information within the threads if you actually read them.
https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/244642
https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/229180&highlight=eneloops
https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/228414&highlight=eneloops
https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/168348&highlight=eneloops
https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/198115&highlight=eneloops
https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/176437&highlight=eneloops
https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/149804&highlight=eneloop 
https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/234290&highlight=eneloop
https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/222728&highlight=eneloop
https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/204340&highlight=eneloop


So, are HUNDREDS of "real world use" reports over years that completely corroborate Sanyo's data enough "testing" for you?


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## uplite (Oct 13, 2009)

Marduke said:


> On your point #1, yes I know the ordinate is scaled differently. But let's plot each at a 2A discharge for giggles on the same ordinate. I did a quick digitize of Silverfox's data:


 OK...

Silverfox's graphs are stepped in nice 0.1V increments, so it is very easy to make an _accurate_ comparison by hand/eye if you want. Better than a rough digitize.
You used the wrong discharge current. The lights we are talking about here draw _max_ 1A, not 2A.
Even so, your graph shows a _maximum_ *3%* difference (0.04V), which is statistically insignificant. odessit's tests contradict this result, so we may as well cancel them out and just say 0%. 
Finally, your graph _clearly_ shows that the *2700 delivers much more power than the eneloop*. See the huge area under the curve on the right, where the 2700 keeps going after the eneloop has died. But we already know that from the watt-hour figures that silverfox and odessit neatly summarized for us... 
The first five links you added are just the marketing materials for the eneloop. Emphasis on _*marketing*_. They compare the eneloop in various incomplete and biased ways to the oldest/bodgiest nimh cell they could get away with. _Not_ to a cell of the same generation, let alone the current 2700 cells.

If you look at the _datasheets_ for these specific cells--datasheets that _engineers_ may rely on to design real-world systems, where real-world _legal liability_ is a concern--they tell a very different story.  Even in datasheets, manufacturers play games...different scales, sins of omission, etc..._however_ you can rest assured that the datasheets are _closer_ to reality that the faith-based marketing story they feed to consumers. 

As for the other links...I started to look for Eneloop vs Sanyo 2700 comparisons...but gave up after the first few irrelevant hits. :tired: So, *if you find any tests that compare the eneloop and 2700, please point them out.* Otherwise we have the odessit and silverfox tests, which clearly show the sanyo 2700 cells have superior runtime over many cycles. :thumbsup:

-Jeff

p.s. It'd be nice see a _durablility_ test. Put an eneloop 2000 and a 2700 in a rock tumbler for 30 days, 60 days, 90 days, 180 days...and see how they perform afterwards. I expect the 2700 will die first...but given the the games that manufacturers play with "value engineering" of their consumer products, you never know...


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## Marduke (Oct 13, 2009)

Many lights draw 2A or more, so that was a very valid choice of current. 

There were also dozens of tests and references comparing Eneloops with 2700's in the linked threads if you READ them. I have over two years, which is where I can base my engineering judgement on, same as hundreds of other VERY educated CPF'ers who actually read and understand the data rather than simply dismissing it as marketing hoopla.


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## uplite (Oct 13, 2009)

> There were also dozens of tests and references comparing Eneloops with 2700's in the linked threads if you READ them.


Well, I followed 4 of the links you provided, and _none_ of them were relevant. If you see "dozens" of eneloop vs sanyo 2700 tests, _please_, post the links for at least one or two of them. Thanks!



> I have over two years, which is where I can base my engineering judgement on


fwiw, I've been using various nimh cells for about *15 years*. At least 8 different brands...Sanyo, Panasonic, Energizer, Duracell, Radio Shack, Rayovac, various "oem shrinkwrap" cells. So I have a bit of personal experience with the different generations of cell chemistry. Haven't done any tests like odessit and silverfox though. If anyone else has done tests like those, I'd love to see them.

-Jeff


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## Marduke (Oct 13, 2009)

uplite said:


> Well, I followed 4 of the links you provided, and _none_ of them were relevant. If you see "dozens" of eneloop vs sanyo 2700 tests, _please_, post the links for at least one or two of them. Thanks!


 
Since you are unwilling or unable to read the referenced threads for corroborating information, I will provide them, consisting mostly of first hand typical consumer experiences and observations:
https://www.candlepowerforums.com/posts/2921022&postcount=5 
https://www.candlepowerforums.com/posts/2921245&postcount=7
https://www.candlepowerforums.com/posts/3030922&postcount=42
https://www.candlepowerforums.com/posts/3115452&postcount=5
https://www.candlepowerforums.com/posts/3115524&postcount=11
https://www.candlepowerforums.com/posts/3115526&postcount=12
https://www.candlepowerforums.com/posts/3115618&postcount=15
https://www.candlepowerforums.com/posts/2172966&postcount=2
https://www.candlepowerforums.com/posts/2173026&postcount=3
https://www.candlepowerforums.com/posts/2173051&postcount=5
https://www.candlepowerforums.com/posts/2173099&postcount=6
https://www.candlepowerforums.com/posts/2173121&postcount=8
https://www.candlepowerforums.com/posts/2173516&postcount=13
https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/172546
https://www.candlepowerforums.com/posts/2122811&postcount=6
https://www.candlepowerforums.com/posts/2123092&postcount=7
https://www.candlepowerforums.com/posts/2180299&postcount=72
https://www.candlepowerforums.com/posts/2186092&postcount=97
https://www.candlepowerforums.com/posts/2483267&postcount=3
https://www.candlepowerforums.com/posts/2486234&postcount=10
https://www.candlepowerforums.com/posts/2064150&postcount=3
https://www.candlepowerforums.com/posts/2064154&postcount=4
https://www.candlepowerforums.com/posts/2064458&postcount=11
https://www.candlepowerforums.com/posts/2064563&postcount=15
https://www.candlepowerforums.com/posts/2064649&postcount=16
https://www.candlepowerforums.com/posts/2064664&postcount=18
https://www.candlepowerforums.com/posts/2065131&postcount=23
https://www.candlepowerforums.com/posts/2066113&postcount=35
https://www.candlepowerforums.com/posts/2067580&postcount=45
https://www.candlepowerforums.com/posts/2067915&postcount=58
https://www.candlepowerforums.com/posts/2068281&postcount=60
https://www.candlepowerforums.com/posts/2068387&postcount=63
https://www.candlepowerforums.com/posts/2072807&postcount=98
https://www.candlepowerforums.com/posts/2076464&postcount=122
https://www.candlepowerforums.com/posts/2911160&postcount=20
https://www.candlepowerforums.com/posts/2911290&postcount=21
https://www.candlepowerforums.com/posts/2911469&postcount=23
https://www.candlepowerforums.com/posts/2914486&postcount=50
https://www.candlepowerforums.com/posts/2077964&postcount=130
https://www.candlepowerforums.com/posts/2082133&postcount=132
https://www.candlepowerforums.com/posts/2090147&postcount=141
https://www.candlepowerforums.com/posts/2090418&postcount=142
https://www.candlepowerforums.com/posts/2110464&postcount=146
https://www.candlepowerforums.com/posts/2642747&postcount=300
https://www.candlepowerforums.com/posts/2643392&postcount=302
https://www.candlepowerforums.com/posts/2643734&postcount=305
https://www.candlepowerforums.com/posts/2581565&postcount=12
https://www.candlepowerforums.com/posts/2984710&postcount=15


For the record, there are dozens of accounts of high cap cells (including 2700's) discharging in days and weeks after just a few cycles. Eneloops have been out nearly 4 years, and have been tested to death, and are still the "best".




uplite said:


> fwiw, I've been using various nimh cells for about *15 years*. At least 8 different brands...Sanyo, Panasonic, Energizer, Duracell, Radio Shack, Rayovac, various "oem shrinkwrap" cells. So I have a bit of personal experience with the different generations of cell chemistry. Haven't done any tests like odessit and silverfox though. If anyone else has done tests like those, I'd love to see them.
> 
> -Jeff


 
Then you should know full well that the highest capacity cell on the market is almost ALWAYS the crappiest in every other respect. You *should* also know what voltage retention means in real world use.

You should also know that self discharge increases exponentially with increased cycle count, meaning that extra capacity of high cap cells is only useful within a few weeks or even days after charge, and residual voltage decreases also.

Also, try looking here under "Other Benefits"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Low_self-discharge_NiMH_battery 

So, which is the more likely correct answer? Either everything is at it appears (to everyone but you), or the whole world has gone crazy...


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## drmaxx (Oct 15, 2009)

Wow - that got intensive. :wave:



cave dave said:


> Every > 2500 cell I've tried (and I've tried all the top brands) were all junk after a couple months of hard use. And by junk I mean they would not hold their charge for more than a month, often only a few days.
> If you charge *used *high cap bateries and use them within a week they will have higher capacities than eneloops, but after a week or two it seems to be a crap shoot with some cells being OK and others not.
> 
> I have eneloops that are now two years old have seen many a recharge and they are still going strong. I can leave them in a headlamp for 6 mo, then pick it up and use it for hours.
> ...



:twothumbs
Exactly my experience. Most of my 2500 - 2700 do indeed still deliver more capacity compared with the eneloops _if you use them right after charging_. What really gets bad with these cell as they age is the self discharge. Most of them are loosing their capacity edge within one or two weeks of storage. 
Eneloops with comparable use and age are still holding up very well.

The eneloops are just a very well balanced package. Not the highest capacity, but robust and ready to use when needed. Way more KISS then the high capacity princesses.


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## yellow (Oct 17, 2009)

> Exactly my experience. Most of my 2500 - 2700 do indeed still deliver more capacity compared with the eneloops _if you use them right after charging_. What really gets bad with these cell as they age is the self discharge. Most of them are loosing their capacity edge within one or two weeks of storage.
> Eneloops with comparable use and age are still holding up very well.
> 
> The eneloops are just a very well balanced package. Not the highest capacity, but robust and ready to use when needed. Way more KISS then the high capacity princesses.


+1
in every point,

the only thing I could add - from my untechnical experience: 
all that does not apply to the "normal" Ni-Mh I had, that were crap from beginning.
And that was in general one cell out of every 4-cell pack AAs.
Total discharge within a few days - one week.

All the 16 Eneloops and Hybrios give about 2000 mA according to my charger
(no matter if immediately after charge, or with some days-weeks between recharges)


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