# Red Light Traffic Cameras



## will (Apr 2, 2013)

The town, here in Florida, has installed Red Light Cameras at most major intersections. Actually a private company installed them and processes all the violations. Florida cars only have a rear license plate, nothing in the front. I understand how most of the system works. The system will sense a car that is moving through the intersection after the light has turned red. This can be with sensors in the road or sensors near the traffic light. The system will take a picture of the car that has passed through the red light. There can be be various times set up to allow a little leeway before the offender is caught. 

The question I have is simple, it appears that the cameras face the oncoming cars and are angled down facing the road way. How do they get a picture of the rear of the car? 

Picture a six lane divided highway with two additional lanes for left turns. The traffic lights are mounted on rigid poles with an arm that extends over most of that half of the road. The cameras and sensors are mounted on top of that arm and face down. There is no apparent camera that is capable of taking a picture of the car after it has passed through the red light . 


So - How do they do it????


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## louie (Apr 2, 2013)

If it's like here, my understanding is that they are only able to photograph the rear of the cars after the fact, and not show the driver, just the license plate. IOW, they are only able to work the direction of traffic where the camera sees the rear. I think it's not widely mentioned that many intersections only tag in one direction.


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## Arm and Leg (Apr 2, 2013)

So, someone could just drive through and all they would get is a picture of their face and the front of their car?
Hmm, something tells me there are hidden cameras you don't see that are actually taking license shots.


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## PhotonBoy (Apr 2, 2013)

I haven't read the whole thing, but you might get some info here: http://auto.howstuffworks.com/car-driving-safety/safety-regulatory-devices/red-light-camera.htm

Also, try using Google with a few search queries.


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## sassaquin (Apr 2, 2013)

Los Angelos Police Dept. (lapdonline.org) has a Red Light Violation FAQ page that states that a vehicle in violation has the driver's face, license plate as well as the vehicle's front and rear video recorded by a "red light camera system". 

I surprised to read that their fine for a red light violation captured by the red light camera system is $446.


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## AnAppleSnail (Apr 2, 2013)

There's a different camera for the license plate. Interestingly, in some areas you can wear a gorilla mask and not pay these tickets. Arizona 2009 with similar systems.


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## jtr1962 (Apr 2, 2013)

The cameras you see might just be decoys. Many localities only have a small number of active cameras, but lots of decoys.

Semi off-topic but roundabouts make a lot more sense than traffic lights. They're safer as well in that they force slower speeds at intersections. It's a pity we don't use them more in this country. 75 years of studies show traffic lights are less safe than even uncontrolled intersections. Red light cameras are a bandaid to a system that is itself a bandaid.


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## StarHalo (Apr 2, 2013)

Any ticket you are issued from a red light camera does not include the signature of an official of the law, and is therefore not a legal document that has been served to you - you can always claim you did not receive it, because they do not follow the legal procedure to ensure proper processing.

And I agree about roundabouts being the solution, but even if you were to immediately put in place a campaign to replace all major intersections in the US with roundabouts, technology would introduce the autonomous car before you were even halfway done, and full automation will resolve the problem conclusively.


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## will (Apr 2, 2013)

When Florida first started to install these systems, Florida State had no 'say' with them. A ticket issued by the company that runs the system had no state remedy. Therefore, no problem with your drivers license or you license plates, which are issued by the state. The city's only remedy to collect the fine would be through small claims court. 

I have read that the Florida Legislature is taking/has taken steps to make these 'real' tickets with penalties that could affect your plates or drivers license. Not sure if this has in fact become part of the law or not. 

Roundabouts - my opinion - not a good idea. Most drivers do not know how to manage getting into these or getting out. And - who has the right of way? The city here has a back road with 4 roundabouts, Always interesting to see who moves first when 2 cars enter at the same time. For the most part, both drivers will stop and after a few hand signals, someone will move through the roundabout.

My question has to do the camera setup here. I do not see any camera that faces in the direction of the car after it has gone through the intersection.


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## dano (Apr 2, 2013)

StarHalo said:


> Any ticket you are issued from a red light camera does not include the signature of an official of the law, and is therefore not a legal document that has been served to you - you can always claim you did not receive it, because they do not follow the legal procedure to ensure proper processing.
> 
> And I agree about roundabouts being the solution, but even if you were to immediately put in place a campaign to replace all major intersections in the US with roundabouts, technology would introduce the autonomous car before you were even halfway done, and full automation will resolve the problem conclusively.



Not true. They send the violation notice, signed after review, via Certified Mail, the the Offender's address on file with the DMV. If it comes back as "Unclaimed" or undeliverable, then a warrant can be issued for the driver's arrest, or a traffic court trial will be held In Absentia (I.E. without the offender present).


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## will (Apr 2, 2013)

This is a simple diagram of one intersection. The arrows indicate the direction of the camera, which is pointed down. The offense occurs after the car has passed under the camera.


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## will (Apr 2, 2013)

dano said:


> Not true. They send the violation notice, signed after review, via Certified Mail, the the Offender's address on file with the DMV. If it comes back as "Unclaimed" or undeliverable, then a warrant can be issued for the driver's arrest, or a traffic court trial will be held In Absentia (I.E. without the offender present).



My understanding of all this is murky at best. Some states will enforce the ticket as stated above. Other states will not follow up on the infraction and rely on the vehicle owner just 'paying up' . Factor into all this, the camera setups are monitored by an out of state business. They get a cut of each ticket.


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## Launch Mini (Apr 2, 2013)

We have them here.
The camera is located Both behing & in front of the car. The first picture shows the red light ON, and the front of the car BEHIND the stop line. The Second is with the car across the Stop Line. Time stamped and shows the rear licence plate.
Car owner gets the ticket, not the driver.


I thought I've seen images of the front of the car, but in my post below, the diagram only shows the back.


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## will (Apr 2, 2013)

Launch Mini said:


> We have them here.
> The camera is located Both behing & in front of the car. The first picture shows the red light ON, and the front of the car BEHIND the stop line. The Second is with the car across the Stop Line. Time stamped and shows the rear licence plate.
> Car owner gets the ticket, not the driver.



I have seen setups with multiple cameras and I can understand how they get the infraction and the rear plate. I ride a bicycle here in Florida and I have stopped and really looked at the setup. I can not find any camera that is capable of taking the back of the car. Even looking at the back of the cameras, there are cables that would get in the way of the camera.


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## nbp (Apr 3, 2013)

As an aside, roundabouts are popping up like crazy around here, and frankly, I like them. They are pretty simple to navigate, and while there can still be collisions in them, statistics show they virtually eliminate fatalities at intersections.


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## Launch Mini (Apr 3, 2013)

The camera for the back of the car ( around here), is located on the same side of the road as the drivers approach to the intersection.
Not that I have received one, but my clients have included their pictures and charge as they tried to write them off for tax purpose. However, here, Fines & Penalties are NOT deductible.


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## jtr1962 (Apr 3, 2013)

nbp said:


> As an aside, roundabouts are popping up like crazy around here, and frankly, I like them. They are pretty simple to navigate, and while there can still be collisions in them, statistics show they virtually eliminate fatalities at intersections.


That's the point-namely that roundabouts slow entering traffic enough by virtue of their geometry so as to make fatal collisions virtually impossible. A regular intersection with traffic lights doesn't inherently prevent high-speed collisions. In fact, the traffic light functions as a virtual "air traffic control" device for cars, enabling them to pass intersections at much higher speeds than would otherwise be safe if the traffic light weren't there. At unprotected intersections motorists typically need to slow to 20 or 25 mph just so they have time to stop if something is crossing.


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## gadget_lover (Apr 3, 2013)

Three points come to mind.

First, just because you think a ticket is not valid, don't count on it. You better check with local law enforcement / judicial branch to see if you will be prosecuted. A $50 for running a red light is much less than the compounded fines for failure to appear in court and/or paying on time. 

Second, I don't care for roundabouts. They are very rare in my area and people don't know how to use them. They make you slow down even when there is zero traffic to slow down for. I suspect that the same idiot who inattentively blows through a red light at 50 mph will still do the same at a roundabout. 

There was a problem with tickets where the car owner protested that they were not the driver and should not be fined. The only way the driver could get the ticket cleared was to identify the real driver. This was in California. A recent change to the law now allows the owner to contest the ticket without ratting out the person behind the wheel.

Some cases have been documented where the private company which was running the red light cameras changed the timing of the lights to ensure a higher rate of violations. Our trial (one intersection) was discontinued for basically that reason.


Daniel


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## Launch Mini (Apr 3, 2013)

I saw a news show, that blew the whistle on a few "counties" in the US, that actually reduced the length of time a YELLOW light was on, thereby reducing the drivers time to stop for a changing light. The effect was to drastically increase the red light tickets being issued. The show proved that by increasing the length of the yellow, actually reduced the incidence of red light runners. 
The red light cameras are supposed to save lives, but in fact these counties were endangering lives in order to increase ticket revenues.


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## jtr1962 (Apr 3, 2013)

gadget_lover said:


> Second, I don't care for roundabouts. They are very rare in my area and people don't know how to use them. They make you slow down even when there is zero traffic to slow down for. I suspect that the same idiot who inattentively blows through a red light at 50 mph will still do the same at a roundabout.


Just a couple of points:

1) If roundabouts were more common drivers would know how to use them. Honestly though, what's so confusing about using them ( How to drive a roundabout )? Traffic entering the roundabout must yield to traffic already in it.

2) Red lights make you STOP, often for quite a while, even when there's no cross traffic. I would rather slow down at every intersection than stop at perhaps half of them. Where roundabouts are used instead of traffic lights, usually travel times are faster.

3) Anyone attempting to "run" a roundabout at 50 mph ends up hitting an immovable object, which is actually the point. I suppose we could narrow traffic lanes and install bollards separating the lanes near intersections to get a similar effect, but roundabouts are more elegant. Besides, I can't think of one good reason why intersections should be passed at more than maybe 20 or 25 mph, even if there's no traffic. You might have a person in dark clothing crossing the street at night. If you're going 50 mph, you'll never be able to stop in time.

As for red light cameras, fifteen states have already banned them, often for the reasons mentioned by Launch Mini. I suspect eventually all fifty will. That leaves us right back where we started (i.e. drivers running red lights at high speeds). Besides tweaking the yellow phase, another issue is that red light cameras decrease side impacts, but at the expense of an increase in rear-end collisions. As I said earlier, red light cameras are like putting a band-aid on a band-aid. Or perhaps more accurately like putting a band-aid on a broken bone.

More on why traffic lights have failed to increase road safety.


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## will (Apr 4, 2013)

Launch Mini said:


> The camera for the back of the car ( around here), is located on the same side of the road as the drivers approach to the intersection.
> Not that I have received one, but my clients have included their pictures and charge as they tried to write them off for tax purpose. However, here, Fines & Penalties are NOT deductible.



This is the setup I have seen in NY. The setup here in Florida is different. Picture putting the camera and sensor on the traffic light arm between the center and left most traffic light that is just above image 3. Now, aim that camera down to face the oncoming traffic. It is easy to see that the camera can get the front of the vehicle, which does not have a license plate. 

I have heard stories about the timing of the yellow to increase the number of red light tickets. The town, here in Florida, has those cameras on almost every light in town. 

Roundabouts - Have you ever seen one that has more than 4 lanes? They are a nightmare when there is a lot of traffic. You have to cut across 2 lanes to go straight, otherwise you stay in the lane that would be for a right turn. A single, country lane is not bad.


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## jtr1962 (Apr 4, 2013)

will said:


> This is the setup I have seen in NY. The setup here in Florida is different. Picture putting the camera and sensor on the traffic light arm between the center and left most traffic light that is just above image 3. Now, aim that camera down to face the oncoming traffic. It is easy to see that the camera can get the front of the vehicle, which does not have a license plate.


Here's my theory on this. I suspect they're going to have more red light camera locations than active cameras (similar to what NYC is doing actually). The forward facing camera (if it is a camera) will probably be active all the time, but of course won't be able to take valid pictures. In fact, it may not take pictures at all, but may just flash to make motorists _think_ they were caught. Because most of the hardware is already there, it will be relatively easy to mount a rear-facing camera behind the forward-facing camera on a temporary basis. This won't be readily visible to oncoming traffic, and thus there will be no way to tell whether or not this location has an active red light camera. The forward facing "camera" would serve as a deterrent even without the rear facing camera, similar to the way active security cameras are often supplemented by dummy cameras. This allows you to multiply the number of intersections where motorists think they're being watched while using a much smaller number of cameras. Maybe the legislature said you can only have, say, 100 cameras in Florida. They didn't say you couldn't equip as many intersections as you want for red light cameras, and then rotate the camera locations. In NYC some percentage of the cameras aren't active, but the intersections with red light cameras still _look_ like they are. As a result, I notice motorists are more careful about running these particular lights.


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## Pellidon (Apr 4, 2013)

The red light cameras legal status varies from state to state. Last I heard, here in Indiana, they are not valid because one can not confront the accuser in court. So we don't use them for ticketing (unless that has changed). They are set up in some areas for monitoring traffic and safety in high crime intersections. Some states stopped using them when they found out the intersections that had them had more rear enders from people stopping too quickly to avoid them. Some municipalities also signed bad contracts with third parties to manage them, and keep all the money. Plus some of those cities also have to pay out of pocket for their use. Not the win-win they thought they would be. 

My GPS has some traffic camera locations and warns me when I approach. Quite sensible in speed camera zones but many people don't know or care that they are present. I have seen many people go 10-20 MPH over the limit to pass someone just to slow down to exit the highway or slow down by 20+ MPH for no apparent reason and almost get rear ended. 

I have also seen up to five cars run a red light at an intersection before the cross traffic starts moving. Something needs to be done. I guess having an officer stop them and administer forty minutes with a taser is just too time consuming.


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## will (Apr 4, 2013)

One set up in NY has a few cameras and stobe lights to take the pictures. They had it set up at an intersection that had a left turn arrow for those making a left turn. Most traffic lights sequence the full green light immediately after the green left arrow goes off, no delay. They set this one up with a 2 second delay between the green arrow going off and the full green coming on. What happens ? cars get into the intersection with the green left turn arrow, that goes off when they are still in the middle ( now there is a red light for 2 seconds ) . The cameras go off, the stobes flash, and the car will get a ticket in the mail. I sat at this light for 10 minutes while I was on a bike ride, sure enough, cars were getting caught in the middle.


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## AnAppleSnail (Apr 4, 2013)

Is that better or worse than here? Every once in a while, from 5-6pm weekdays, a police officer parks near the intersection. Usually, the light goes from green+right arrow green, to red+Right arrow green. While he is there, the right turn arrow turns red, then green.


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## SemiMan (Apr 4, 2013)

will said:


> When Florida first started to install these systems, Florida State had no 'say' with them. A ticket issued by the company that runs the system had no state remedy. Therefore, no problem with your drivers license or you license plates, which are issued by the state. The city's only remedy to collect the fine would be through small claims court.
> 
> I have read that the Florida Legislature is taking/has taken steps to make these 'real' tickets with penalties that could affect your plates or drivers license. Not sure if this has in fact become part of the law or not.
> 
> ...




I will take roundabouts any day. You are correct that when there are only a few of them that people do not know what to do ... deer in the headlights. However, once people get used to them, then they work out really well. Moving towards more of them .... critical mass, is a good idea. The downside of roundabouts is that they do take up more area and hence could not be used to replace a large number of intersections.


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## SemiMan (Apr 4, 2013)

Launch Mini said:


> I saw a news show, that blew the whistle on a few "counties" in the US, that actually reduced the length of time a YELLOW light was on, thereby reducing the drivers time to stop for a changing light. The effect was to drastically increase the red light tickets being issued. The show proved that by increasing the length of the yellow, actually reduced the incidence of red light runners.
> The red light cameras are supposed to save lives, but in fact these counties were endangering lives in order to increase ticket revenues.



There have been a few news stories like this not to mention it has been shown where red light cameras have been installed, the incidence of rear-end collisions goes up. I have purposely "ran" a red light ... yellow turning red, because I had another vehicle right on my bumper and while I may have been able to stop, I did not expect they would have. There are idiots that will sit right on your tail approaching an intersection so that they can "get through".

Semiman


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## orbital (Apr 4, 2013)

SemiMan said:


> I will take roundabouts any day. You are correct that when there are only a few of them that people do not know what to do ... deer in the headlights. However, once people get used to them, then they work out really well. Moving towards more of them .... critical mass, is a good idea. The downside of roundabouts is that they do take up more area and hence could not be used to replace a large number of intersections.



+

Roundabouts save both time and energy, 

Your not sitting there wasting gas, then having to re-accelerate out from a complete stop, _which uses even more gas!_
The added strain on transmissions starting from a complete stop, especially if towing.
Added wear on brakes
Wasted time
ect..
ect..

There really isn't anything tricky about Roundabouts,, you Yield entering it :thumbsup:


>> I'd love to see a study on the amount of gas wasted at unnecessary Stop signs


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## will (Apr 4, 2013)

AnAppleSnail said:


> Is that better or worse than here? Every once in a while, from 5-6pm weekdays, a police officer parks near the intersection. Usually, the light goes from green+right arrow green, to red+Right arrow green. While he is there, the right turn arrow turns red, then green.



I am familiar with NY and Florida, both have 'right on red, after stop' there are exceptions, like NYC. I have not seen a 'green right arrow' for quite some time in a regular intersection. 

The back street here that has the roundabouts also has LOTS and LOTS of tire marks on the curbs around them.


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## Norman (Apr 4, 2013)

Launch Mini said:


> I saw a news show, that blew the whistle on a few "counties" in the US, that actually reduced the length of time a YELLOW light was on, thereby reducing the drivers time to stop for a changing light. The effect was to drastically increase the red light tickets being issued. The show proved that by increasing the length of the yellow, actually reduced the incidence of red light runners.
> The red light cameras are supposed to save lives, but in fact these counties were endangering lives in order to increase ticket revenues.



Yes, not only should the yellow timing be increased, but a study indicated that increasing the timing for red in all directions will also reduce the chance of a collision. It all depends on whether you're trying to increase revenues or decrease collisions.

Here's a website that I found a few years ago. It not only has automotive-related news (less cars, more red light cams, enforcement, etc), but also includes links to studies.
http://www.thenewspaper.com/


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## Monocrom (Apr 4, 2013)

StarHalo said:


> Any ticket you are issued from a red light camera does not include the signature of an official of the law, and is therefore not a legal document that has been served to you - you can always claim you did not receive it, because they do not follow the legal procedure to ensure proper processing.
> 
> And I agree about roundabouts being the solution, but even if you were to immediately put in place a campaign to replace all major intersections in the US with roundabouts, technology would introduce the autonomous car before you were even halfway done, and full automation will resolve the problem conclusively.



A more serious issue . . . Idiot drivers having no clue how a roundabout works, and going in the wrong direction. (Probably while texting.)

Not to mention the prohibitive cost of replacing even a fraction of intersections with roundabouts.


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## Ny0ng1 (Apr 4, 2013)

Just to provide a different perspective. Here in Jakarta, Indonesia, where the traffic condition is waay above the road capacity, a roundabout without a traffic light would be a deadlock.
There would be vehicles criss crossing each other's path.

Here is a pic of a big roundabout (with traffic light) at central Jakarta





Here are the pic of the same roundabout at normal traffic condition with traffic lights. At peak hour, policemen would be required to ensure all motorist are adhering to traffic rules.


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## will (Apr 7, 2013)

Getting back to my original question. There has to be a camera that is taking the rear of the car after it passes the red light. Is it possible the camera on the opposite side of the street is doing that? Wide angle lens? 

I had hoped that someone here was familiar with the setup I described..


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## louie (Apr 8, 2013)

will said:


> Getting back to my original question. There has to be a camera that is taking the rear of the car after it passes the red light. Is it possible the camera on the opposite side of the street is doing that? Wide angle lens?
> 
> I had hoped that someone here was familiar with the setup I described..



Are you sure these arm cameras are for red light violations? Around here, the red light cameras are on sidewalk poles, in large housings, with large strobes, and by law the intersection must have signage saying red light cams are in use in this intersection. They do not have to state which direction they can detect, however, that info is available on the city website.

We also have many small cameras on traffic signal arms which appear to be solely for city traffic monitoring.


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## idleprocess (Apr 8, 2013)

In Texas, almost all of the red light cameras were the worst possible examples of public-private "partnerships" where the cameras were owned, operated, and maintained privately with the hosting municipality leasing them, giving them some vague force in law, and capturing a fraction of the ticket revenue. Needless to say, with the rent-seeking problem so badly amplified, they were routinely adjusted to maximize revenue with no regard for the letter nor the spirit of the law they were ostensibly enforcing. At some locations, it reached the point where simply being in the intersection when the light turned yellow would result in a citation.

Thankfully, the Texas legislature has suspended the installation of new red light cameras and last session had a bill prohibiting the renewal of existing leases (which may or may not have passed).



SemiMan said:


> The downside of roundabouts is that they do take up more area and hence could not be used to replace a large number of intersections.


This alone will prevent them from being implemented in most existing locations - too expensive to buy up the land for that kind of re-engineering. What's funny is that the few places I see them around the Dallas area, they're in exceptionally low-traffic areas ... better than a stop sign and the operating expense of a signal, I suppose.

Why traffic lights can't be better synchronized is beyond me. Everywhere I go in the US an intersection has a controller the size of a commercial refrigerator, yet they seem to be optimized by the local brake shop association. Is the profession of traffic engineering the dismal failure it seems to be? Is it some limitation on sensors and the ability to detect traffic / for light controllers to communicate? Is there political interference from the influential who demand the ability to turn left out of their gated communities without waiting / folks who prefer slow traffic to "undesirables" travelling through their town?

The latter point seems to be exceptionally pronounced. I see stoplights along major roads turning red constantly - interrupting arterial flow - so that a car or three can turn left from a feeder street that often as not connects to no other major roads. I see left turn signal logic that seems to be 180 degrees out of phase with how it intuitively should work. The whole point of traffic lights and the "limited branch hierarchy" scheme that funnels traffic to major arteries seems to be to _keep traffic moving on the arteries_, with the implicit understanding that feeder streets will be de-prioritized upon entry to the arteries.


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## will (Apr 8, 2013)

louie said:


> Are you sure these arm cameras are for red light violations? Around here, the red light cameras are on sidewalk poles, in large housings, with large strobes, and by law the intersection must have signage saying red light cams are in use in this intersection. They do not have to state which direction they can detect, however, that info is available on the city website.
> 
> We also have many small cameras on traffic signal arms which appear to be solely for city traffic monitoring.



The setup you describe is the same as the ones in NY that I have seen. Here in Florida, there are no signs indicating cameras in use, no strobe lights, and no cameras on poles. I did a quick search and the only reference I could find was for red light cameras. Florida did pass a law making violations a state offense. Next stop will be to ask one of the deputies how they work.


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## orbital (Apr 8, 2013)

+

will, they'll have the necessary photos for the ticket.

The much bigger issue is we are at the tip of the iceberg regarding robo-ticketing, the $ potential is huge and it will be easily lobbied.
.... most concerning to me is the little block box in every new car that can _phone home_ on everything you do. 

What do you think *Snapshot* is on some insurance, 
it's a way for them to prove you did something wrong (or outside laws in any way) & you will be found liable in incidents.

Hell, the little red light cam is nothing compared to what will likely come..


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## alpg88 (Apr 8, 2013)

i recieved few red light camera tickest in nyc. 
it just shows the rear of the car, before, and at intersection, and shows license plate close up as well. no foto of the driver.
even if you don't pay, no one is issued warrant for arrest, it works the same way parking tickest work. have enough fines on lisence plate, the car gets towed, the more time you don't pay, the more fines-late charges you accamulate. in nyc few year back it was $230 you had to have owed on your plate to have your car towed.
and if the owner has 2 or more cars, they may tow any of them, doesn't have to be the one that ran a light, or collected bunch of parking tickets.


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## jtr1962 (Apr 8, 2013)

orbital said:


> The much bigger issue is we are at the tip of the iceberg regarding robo-ticketing, the $ potential is huge and it will be easily lobbied.
> .... most concerning to me is the little block box in every new car that can _phone home_ on everything you do.


I'm dubious if cars will ever contact the authorities on their own. What is coming though will be routine use of black box data to investigate crashes. And in my book it couldn't come soon enough. NYC has had an epidemic of stupid crashes where the driver claims to have had a seizure, mixed up the gas and brake pedals, or just "lost control". It boggles the mind how a car driven at the legal speed limit of 30 mph or less can end up going on a sidewalk with enough force to mow down a bunch of pedestrians. In any case, if we pulled the black box data, we might well find the driver was speeding to make a light, and/or otherwise engaged in reckless behavior. Perhaps in time the black boxes will be supplemented by cameras. Those who drive responsibly aren't going to have any worries from all this new technology. The ones who do object are the ones who routinely drive recklessly, and get away with it.


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## jtr1962 (Apr 8, 2013)

idleprocess said:


> Why traffic lights can't be better synchronized is beyond me. Everywhere I go in the US an intersection has a controller the size of a commercial refrigerator, yet they seem to be optimized by the local brake shop association. Is the profession of traffic engineering the dismal failure it seems to be? Is it some limitation on sensors and the ability to detect traffic / for light controllers to communicate? Is there political interference from the influential who demand the ability to turn left out of their gated communities without waiting / folks who prefer slow traffic to "undesirables" travelling through their town?
> 
> The latter point seems to be exceptionally pronounced. I see stoplights along major roads turning red constantly - interrupting arterial flow - so that a car or three can turn left from a feeder street that often as not connects to no other major roads. I see left turn signal logic that seems to be 180 degrees out of phase with how it intuitively should work. The whole point of traffic lights and the "limited branch hierarchy" scheme that funnels traffic to major arteries seems to be to _keep traffic moving on the arteries_, with the implicit understanding that feeder streets will be de-prioritized upon entry to the arteries.


There's only so much you can do as far as synchronizing traffic lights. Lights on 2-way streets can only be synced for certain speeds, depending upon the signal spacing/duration. The larger problem is arterials intersect other arterials eventually. Often there really isn't a way to neatly synchronize an entire grid. Adding to the problem is what speed do you synchronize at, assuming you have a choice? On streets with mixed traffic, synchronizing for car speeds often means bicycles get stuck at nearly every light (and predictably end up ignoring red lights). And then when any traffic control is overused, it becomes less effective. Community boards often clamor for traffic lights even when evidence suggests they make things less safe.

The fact is traffic engineering ends up being a dismal failure the more you take the driver's judgement out of the equation. Traffic lights do exactly that. To add to the insanity of the situation, traffic lights which let cars speed along at 30 or 40 mph (at least when they're green) don't even reduce traffic times. In most cities if you're lucky you'll average 15 to 20 mph overall on local streets. That being the case, it makes more sense to just have a 20 mph speed limit. At that speed you don't need any traffic controls at intersections. Everyone watches out for everyone else. The driver is back in the equation. Because you'll rarely need to completely stop, you might get there as fast or faster than you do now. Years ago we thought we could control traffic flow as easily as valves control water by using traffic lights. We're now realizing the huge inefficiency introduced by traffic signals more than negates any increase in cruising speeds they allow. Without traffic lights, cars in cities wouldn't go more than about 20 mph. You would have far fewer pedestrian fatalities as a result.


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## appliancejunk (Apr 8, 2013)

I received a red light ticket from the great state of South Dakota one time.
The ticket that come in the mail had a link that I could view online with my ticket number and maybe password from what I remember. It must have been over 5 years ago now, but I do remember the photos online clearly showed my face, license plate, front and back of the car. It also included a video or time-lapse that looked like a video of me making a right hand turn on the red light without coming to a complete stop first.

Thought for sure I had stopped and was mad at first when I got the ticket in the mail, but after seeing the evidence online I clearly rolled right through the red light.

From what I recall the ticket was just over $100 back then.


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## will (Apr 8, 2013)

orbital said:


> +
> 
> will, they'll have the necessary photos for the ticket.
> 
> ...



I like to have an understanding of how things work. And for the life of me, I can't figure out how one camera/sensor can figure out who is going through the light and then take a picture of the back. 

I might have read somewhere that there are now some 'speeding' cameras. These take a picture of cars if they are exceeding the speed limit and then mail the ticket. New York has installed a few 'radar' signs. These flash your speed in green if you are under or at the speed limit. Then red if you are over the limit. Only a matter of time before they put cameras on these.

Computer controlled traffic lights - this can be done, but there are a lot of variables that have to be taken into account. From what I remember - they generally are set at 5 MPH above the speed limit. Not every road is a good candidate for this automation. How many times have you sat at a red light, no other cars at any of the other streets...

Black boxes in cars - depends on how they are used/abused. We all break the rules a little bit every now and then. Ten MPH over the limit to pass someone. Speeding up a bit to get through the light so the car behind does not hit you.


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## jtr1962 (Apr 8, 2013)

will said:


> Black boxes in cars - depends on how they are used/abused. We all break the rules a little bit every now and then. Ten MPH over the limit to pass someone. Speeding up a bit to get through the light so the car behind does not hit you.


I personally take a natural law approach to this. That basically means the government can only penalize in the event of injury, or loss of life or property. Therefore, we should only pull black box data if there has actually been a collision. Having a car "phone home" if you're speeding might well violate the Fifth Amendment. Even speed cameras or red light cameras are into questionable territory in that you're being incriminated by a machine.

I think just the thought that black box data will be pulled in the event of a collision is enough to get most drivers to err on the side of caution. Railroad engineers have to deal with this on a daily basis. As a result, speed limits are railroads are seldom exceeded.


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## louie (Apr 9, 2013)

will said:


> I like to have an understanding of how things work. And for the life of me, I can't figure out how one camera/sensor can figure out who is going through the light and then take a picture of the back.
> 
> I might have read somewhere that there are now some 'speeding' cameras. These take a picture of cars if they are exceeding the speed limit and then mail the ticket. New York has installed a few 'radar' signs. These flash your speed in green if you are under or at the speed limit. Then red if you are over the limit. Only a matter of time before they put cameras on these.
> 
> ...



We have speeder cams installed around some school zones, and mobile units are sometimes deployed on the freeway construction zones. They mail you a ticket.

Have we mention Los Angeles just synchronized ALL their traffic lights?
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/04/02/u...izes-every-red-light.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0


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## idleprocess (Apr 9, 2013)

jtr1962 said:


> There's only so much you can do as far as synchronizing traffic lights. Lights on 2-way streets can only be synced for certain speeds, depending upon the signal spacing/duration. The larger problem is arterials intersect other arterials eventually. Often there really isn't a way to neatly synchronize an entire grid. Adding to the problem is what speed do you synchronize at, assuming you have a choice? On streets with mixed traffic, synchronizing for car speeds often means bicycles get stuck at nearly every light (and predictably end up ignoring red lights). And then when any traffic control is overused, it becomes less effective. Community boards often clamor for traffic lights even when evidence suggests they make things less safe.


There are obviously hard limits on capacity dictated by speed limits - specified or simply enforced by the nature of the system- number of lanes, intersections (effectively blocking nodes), etc. These limits are further squeezed by the insistence of planners installing needless stoplights, left turn lanes, and driveways. They are further aggravated by drivers' tending to select the shortest _apparent_ route, failures to understand right-of-way, and general stupidity. One of the major package-delivery companies - UPS or FedEx - shave significant time off their routes by effectively prohibiting left turns. Save for major intersections, it would be beneficial to greatly reduce the number of left turns in most cities off of and on to major arteries.

Like it or not, most areas of the country lack the density, compact urban areas, and layout for walking or cycling to be an attractive option. We can disapprove of how we got there and suggest means of remedying the situation, but that doesn't change how it is and will likely continue to be for some time.

In my region, I see a cyclist using the road legitimately _travelling_ somewhere about once a week. They don't pay road taxes on their bikes, generally can't maintain even your ideal 20 MPH speed, and are highly selective about following traffic controls. Optimizing the road for them would come at tremendous expense to the vast majority of the people using the road, thus makes no sense. Dallas's extremely small downtown area (about 1 mile² for actual downtown, perhaps 2-3 mile² for the extended semi-contiguous cycle/pedestrian-friendly areas) already has 20 MPH speed limits with actual speeds closer to 10 MPH - and on the rare occasion I'm there that's the _only_ place I routinely see cyclists (who must be extremely well-off to live anywhere close, or take mass transit downtown then bike the last mile).



> That being the case, it makes more sense to just have a 20 mph speed limit. At that speed you don't need any traffic controls at intersections.


Only if you can reasonably guarantee that traffic won't stop save to change directions.


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## gadget_lover (Apr 11, 2013)

It seems that people are not aware of the use of traffic signals to herd drivers, keeping them out of certain areas. 

Streets often have features that make no sense until you think about what they do to your speed or your route. My neighborhood has gently curved streets with a center island that tends to limit your speed. Another neighborhood has deep channels for drainage at major intersections, and they are natural speed bumps. 

Our town is located at the intersection of two interstate highways. The interstates have terrible engineering and back up for miles where they intersect. People are tempted to cut through town. To discourage 10,000 cars a day from driving down main street the lights are badly unsynchronized during rush hour. The rest of the day I can get from one end of town to the other in 10 minutes. 

My dad is a civil engineer. He explained several ways that city planners can discourage through traffic on side streets and ways to optimize traffic flow. It's really quite a science.

Daniel


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## idleprocess (Apr 11, 2013)

gadget_lover said:


> It seems that people are not aware of the use of traffic signals to herd drivers, keeping them out of certain areas.


The Limited Branch Hierarchy concept does plenty of that already - feeders and side streets meander unpredictably and often go nowhere, generally forcing everyone to the arteries. While this is pleasing to residents in the sense that it limits traffic on most residential streets, it also packs the infrequently-spaced arteries by reducing viable routes to but a handful.



gadget_lover said:


> Our town is located at the intersection of two interstate highways. The interstates have terrible engineering and back up for miles where they intersect. People are tempted to cut through town. To discourage 10,000 cars a day from driving down main street the lights are badly unsynchronized during rush hour. The rest of the day I can get from one end of town to the other in 10 minutes.


I face a similar dilemma daily - there are but two truly viable routes to work.

The highways are slightly longer, but thanks to some impressively bad decisions - both old _(hey - let's drop 2 lanes of traffic onto a 2-lane highway that promptly necks down to ... 2 lanes)_ and new _(let's complete this highway previously served by a 6-lane road with 16+ lanes of right-of-way as ... 2 lanes each way)_ are oftentimes clogged, made worse by seemingly neverending upgrades to a nearby interchange. Sometimes it's 10-15 minutes, oftentimes it's 40+ minutes inching along in traffic - something I am loathe to do in a 5-speed.

The more direct route to work cuts through a well-to-do town on a road that's heavily-trafficked by commuters as well as parents driving their kids to school. This road is one of the longer north-south surface streets in the DFW area, but it's seemingly subservient to the cross-street feeders that go at most a mile or two in each direction. It's also stop-and-go during morning rush hour, but far more predictable at about 25 minutes than the highways, so I find myself choosing it most days whenever I can see the wall of tail lights on the highway approaching the decision point every morning. If the seemingly-awful timing on the surface street is intended to keep drivers off the road, it's not working - but that might largely be a function of the highways being clogged.


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## beach honda (Apr 13, 2013)

All unconstitutional revenue generating spy machines.

check out http://www.nophoto.com/ and stick it to the man.


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## will (Apr 13, 2013)

beach honda said:


> All unconstitutional revenue generating spy machines.
> 
> check out http://www.nophoto.com/ and stick it to the man.



The system here in Florida does not use flashes.


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## AZPops (Apr 14, 2013)

Just do what they do here in Californny. Don't install plates on your car! ....


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## beach honda (Apr 16, 2013)

I see flashes quite often in the Tampa Bay Area. :shrug: ? ?


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## inetdog (Apr 16, 2013)

beach honda said:


> All unconstitutional revenue generating spy machines.
> 
> check out http://www.nophoto.com/ and stick it to the man.




The product is illustrated being tested against speed cameras, which are more likely to use flash to very precisely show the position of the car at a well defined point in time. 
Red light cameras do not have the same requirement, since they are showing the position of a (supposedly) slow moving car.


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## sfshear (May 3, 2013)

will said:


> Getting back to my original question. There has to be a camera that is taking the rear of the car after it passes the red light. Is it possible the camera on the opposite side of the street is doing that? Wide angle lens?
> 
> I had hoped that someone here was familiar with the setup I described..



Good question. If the red light cameras detect bidirectional infractions, could the opposite direction camera be used to photograph the back of the car?

My personal experience has been that of a forward camera taking a picture of the front end of my car as it entered the intersection, after the sensors detected it crossing the threshold post-switch to red light. I'd assume legality dictates a front end picture, as I've never seen a front and rear camera setup at a monitored intersection here in Northern California, although I know they exist.

Paying $500 hurt but it taught me to never again toe the line -- both to avoid another five bill penalty, as well as (most importantly) to never endanger others/myself in that way.


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## will (May 7, 2013)

sfshear said:


> Good question. If the red light cameras detect bidirectional infractions, could the opposite direction camera be used to photograph the back of the car?



They have them on almost every traffic light here in town. Federal Highway ( US 1 ) is an 8 lane road with a center median. There are 3 lanes in each direction and a left turn lane. This is a pretty wide road. It is possible that the camera on the opposite side takes the picture. 

I'll have to check, but I think that the sensor is also mounted in the camera box on the pole. I do not recall seeing any induction coils in the street, other than those that are used way before the intersection, these coils are used to signal the light that a car is in the street. 

The system is supposed to signal a violation when the car passes the cross walk and continues through the light. I think if you are making a left turn and you passed the threshold and can't move until the light turns red, then you go, this does not get a violation. 

I though that with all the LEOs here that some would have some insight as to how these things work. I know in NY the setup is different, the cameras are in a position that can take a picture the rear of the car.

One of these days - I'll ask one of the deputies here...


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## will (May 8, 2013)

The more I look into this, the more I get the feeling that these cameras are just traffic or surveillance cameras. All the systems that I have seen use at least one camera that faces the rear of the car. The other interesting thing about all this, most states have a 'right on red after stop' In theory, anyone not coming to a complete stop has gone through a red light. I bet that 75% of the traffic rolls through, not coming to a complete stop.


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