# Rayovac 4.0 - Huh?



## Wyeast (Nov 13, 2008)

Today at Costco I ran across a Rayovac battery, called a "Rayovac 4.0" AA. Packaging said nothing about chemistry or capacity, only that it was comparing to Energizer Ultimate Lithiums, and how they were supposed to be useable with any recharger. (So I'm guessing it's some kind of hi-cap NiMH?) 

If necessary I can try to go back out there for pics/part #'s - silly me I figured there was already a thread here on it, but I can't seem to find it. 

Anyone know what these things are? Thanks!


----------



## Wyeast (Nov 13, 2008)

Packaging




Model *RF715*


----------



## Mr Happy (Nov 13, 2008)

You didn't photograph the back of the package where all the description and extra information should be found?

They are rechargeable batteries, either NiMH or Renewal alkalines. The NiMH are usually product code NM715, whereas the rechargeable alkalines are just 715. RF715 doesn't show up anywhere in a search.


----------



## Wyeast (Nov 13, 2008)

I can go back and take another picture tomorrow. The back of the card was useless for additional info. Just had a bunch of products the batteries can be used for, and a blurb saying it would work with any charger. That was it - like I said, nothing about chemistry or capacity. 

I drew a blank on the RF series too, that's why I was wondering if someone else had figured out what these were, as they didn't seem to fit into their regular NiMH or Hybrid lines.


----------



## jrmcferren (Nov 13, 2008)

Seems like a new way to market their hybrids. Maybe they are targeting the lithium market and not the rechargable market.


----------



## Mr Happy (Nov 13, 2008)

"Works with any charger" clinches it. They are NiMH batteries, and since they apparently are ready to use out of the package they are LSD cells.

I'd say it is a re-branding exercise to give the cells an extra push in the market and compete with Energizer by pointing out that the Energizer lithium cells can only be used once. For most consumer applications they are right -- NiMH is a much better choice than lithium for AA cells.


----------



## Mr Happy (Nov 13, 2008)

So...how much were they asking for the pack of 12?


----------



## Wyeast (Nov 13, 2008)

Something like $15-20 I think? I can't remember. I do remember it seeming cheap compared to the 8pack Duracell LSD and the Eneloops at the same Costco. Too hurried to snap a pic with my crummy phone-cam. I'll get that tomorrow, too.


----------



## MorePower (Nov 13, 2008)

jrmcferren said:


> Seems like a new way to market their hybrids. Maybe they are targeting the lithium market and not the rechargable market.



Nail. Head. You hit it...


----------



## Burgess (Nov 14, 2008)

Amazed the packaging doesn't have any *specifics*.

:sigh:



Are they afraid that would *confuse* people ? ? ?


_


----------



## Black Rose (Nov 14, 2008)

I wonder if the RF stands for Rayovac Four?

They've been using NM715 and NM724 for years for their NiMh cells and the Hybrids are LD715 and LD724.

Maybe this explains why folks have been saying that Hybrids were becoming hard to find....deplete current supply and reintroduce it under a different name.


----------



## qwertyydude (Nov 14, 2008)

Read the label carefully because it says

Ready to use like LITHIUM

It doesn't actually say that it's lithium. My best guess is it's just an LSD battery. And the 4x longer is comparing it to energizer max, well of course a nimh lasts longer in a camera than an alkaline. It's just marketing hype.


----------



## Black Rose (Nov 14, 2008)

qwertyydude said:


> My best guess is it's just an LSD battery.


Guess you missed MorePower's post.


----------



## Wyeast (Nov 14, 2008)

Burgess said:


> Amazed the packaging doesn't have any *specifics*.
> 
> :sigh:
> 
> ...


That sometimes happens with Costco packaging, as they're not entirely "meant for retail". The three little boxes the batteries are actually in probably says something on the back, but you can't see because of the card they're attached to. It's just goofy because they seemed to have gotten them first (or is it exclusive??). My guess is packaging at someplace like Target or Walmart would also have the more typical small print. Batteries themselves probably say something, I just couldn't see any facing the right way in the little boxes to read.

I had kinda figured they were LSD's. Just didn't know what capacity they were, as I remember the talk about lowered caps on their Hybrid line before this showed up. And it had seemed odd that they weren't packaged anything like the Hybrids were.


----------



## MorePower (Nov 14, 2008)

Wyeast said:


> I had kinda figured they were LSD's. Just didn't know what capacity they were, as I remember the talk about lowered caps on their Hybrid line before this showed up. And it had seemed odd that they weren't packaged anything like the Hybrids were.



Capacity wasn't lowered on the Hybrid line. The 1400mAh AA cells at Walmart aren't LSD NiMH cells. Hybrid cells are still (nominally) 2100mAh.


----------



## Wyeast (Nov 14, 2008)

MorePower said:


> Capacity wasn't lowered on the Hybrid line. The 1400mAh AA cells at Walmart aren't LSD NiMH cells. Hybrid cells are still (nominally) 2100mAh.


My bad. I was working off fuzzy memory when I was staring at those things yesterday. Bought a set for the sake of science to see if there's any add'l info inside. The back of the card doesn't say capacity, but there _is_ a small text about how you have to use NiMH chargers.

$17.99 for set of 12.


----------



## Wyeast (Nov 15, 2008)

Back of the package










(sorry for the blur)

The battery itself says "NiMH 1.2V" but nothing on capacity. Measured 1.30v out of the box. They _really_ don't want to give us the goods on this one.


----------



## Black Rose (Nov 15, 2008)

Do you have a Maha C-9000 or a LaCrosse BC-900 that you could do a capacity test with?

$17.99 for a dozen possibly relabelled Hybrids is a good price.


----------



## Wyeast (Nov 15, 2008)

Sadly, I don't. Otherwise I would.


----------



## lumenal (Nov 15, 2008)

This could explain why the ROV Hybrids have all but disappeared from local retailer's shelves.

ROV must be going for a new look. 

Odd that capacity isn't listed anywhere...


----------



## VegasF6 (Nov 16, 2008)

If they are the same cells, new packaging it is a good price indeed! Nice find.


----------



## Black Rose (Nov 16, 2008)

I was curious about the technical info on these cells, so I sent an e-mail to Rayovac Customer Service.


----------



## JCup (Nov 16, 2008)

The Costco in Plano, TX (west Plano store) had these last Friday. I looked at them and could not conclude what they really were - although I agree they must be NiMH "hybrids".

Their monthly mailout coupon book arrived at my house Saturday, and the current Eneloop package goes on sale with a $9 off coupon beginning Monday 11/17.

That will put the price of the Eneloop kit (8xAA, 2xAAA and a two channel wall charger) at about the same price as this mystery ROV deal.

Think I'll stick with the Eneloops. I have still have a few non-LSD Duracell and Energizer NiMH in various devices (GPS, camera, radio) and I want to go with LSD all the way, with a few spares. I'll have about 50 AA and AAA's total, and I got a Maha C9000 charger early this year - nothing but good experiences with this battery and charger combo.


----------



## iamstuffed (Nov 16, 2008)

I stopped by the Hanover, MD store and they didn't have them there. I wanted to test them on my Maha C9000 and LaCrosse BC-900 chargers.


----------



## Stereodude (Nov 17, 2008)

They have them at the Costco in Livonia, MI on Haggerty Road. They are not available at the Costco in Commerce TWP, MI (yet?).













I agree they are very poorly labeled as to what they are. I'll stick to buying multiple sets of the $20 Eneloop packs instead. :naughty: I've got 3 coupons so far.


----------



## Turbo DV8 (Nov 17, 2008)

Stereodude said:


> I'll stick to buying multiple sets of the $20 Eneloop packs instead. :naughty: I've got 3 coupons so far.


 
I don't believe there is a limit to how many of the Eneloop kits you can buy with one coupon.


----------



## Hooked on Fenix (Nov 18, 2008)

Turbo DV8 said:


> I don't believe there is a limit to how many of the Eneloop kits you can buy with one coupon.



Coupon has a limit of one. Check the back. I did.


----------



## Turbo DV8 (Nov 18, 2008)

Hooked on Fenix said:


> Coupon has a limit of one. Check the back. I did.


 
I understand that is what the fine print says on the back. What I should have perhaps been clearer on is I have never had a Costco cashier enforce that limit at check out. I have bought up to three or four things on one coupon with a limit of (1) and they never bat an eye. YMMV if you fill your cart with Eneloop kits, though!


----------



## LoneRebel (Nov 29, 2008)

Any word on how these batteries perform? I bought a set but haven't opened them yet.


----------



## Black Rose (Nov 29, 2008)

Not that I've seen.

I still haven't received a response to the message I sent to Rayovac about them a couple of weeks ago.


----------



## Mr Happy (Nov 29, 2008)

We just need someone to slap a set through some tests and report back what they find. Seems like nobody's been enthusiastic enough to do that yet...


----------



## LoneRebel (Nov 29, 2008)

I guess I have to take one for the team 

I put 4 batteries on the LaCross charger and started a charge test.


----------



## LoneRebel (Nov 30, 2008)

Here are the results for 4 cells after running a discharge refresh cycle for 18 hours. This was using 1000mah charge and 500mah discharge during each cycle.

2.16ah
2.13ah
2.08ah
2.16ah


----------



## csshih (Nov 30, 2008)

sounds like a LSD.


----------



## Ziemas (Dec 1, 2008)

It makes perfect sense that the capacity isn't labeled on the package as the average consumer will assume that a higher capacity automatically means the best battery for their particular use. 

Not many folks outside of geeky hobbyists (myself included, of course!) know the difference between a Ni-mh 2700 and an LSD 2100. Which do you think the uninformed consumer would choose? This might actually be a great way to boost the sales of LSD batteries, hopefully spurring the manifactures to find a way to increase capicity.


----------



## Dan_Z (Dec 6, 2008)

? Where'd my lengthy reply go? It had all my Rayovac Customer Support correspondence quoted. Well I'm new here, so mistakes are bound to happen.

Anyway, Rayovac 4.0 are 2100mAHR LSD NiMH batteries. The battery labeling is aimed at a less (much less) technical audience. It would have been nice if Rayovac had mentioned Hybrid, mAHR capacity and the like, in their labeling, even in the small print. The omissions seem purposeful. Perhaps to make the product appear special and new is part of a marketing ploy.


----------



## Black Rose (Dec 6, 2008)

You should be able to edit your post and put it back in.

I still haven't heard from Rayovac about my original question. Very odd, as they usually respond within a day.


----------



## VidPro (Dec 6, 2008)

qwertyydude said:


> Read the label carefully because it says
> 
> Ready to use like LITHIUM
> 
> It doesn't actually say that it's lithium. My best guess is it's just an LSD battery. And the 4x longer is comparing it to energizer max, well of course a nimh lasts longer in a camera than an alkaline. It's just marketing hype.


 
that is just plain MEAN advertising, doesnt it already take long enough to shop for the right things without some marketing genious HELPING everyone pick the right things out. :thumbsdow


----------



## Black Rose (Dec 6, 2008)

Most likely a little sabre rattling on Rayovac's part against Energizer.

Energizer filed a lawsuit against Rayovac for trying to sell AA/AAA Lithium primaries in the North American market.


----------



## Black Rose (Dec 22, 2008)

A sort of related post since we are assuming that these are relabelled Rayovac Hybrids.

Last week I noticed some AA Rayovac Hybrids at Wal-Mart with updated packaging and cell wrappers.

The hang card had ©2008 on the back whereas the last packs I saw had ©2006 on the back. 

The interesting thing was that there was not any capacity information printed on the battery wrappers, unlike the Rayovac Hybrids I have here.


----------



## Wyeast (Dec 27, 2008)

Are people still seeing these at Costco? I just hit my local one tonight and they were nowhere to be found...


----------



## Black Rose (Apr 11, 2009)

We now return you to the previously hibernating thread...

Today at Wal-Mart disovered 4-packs of Rayovac 4.0 AAA and AA batteries for $12.97 each.

These are a full dollar less than the Rayovac Hybrid cells.

These just showed up in the last week, along with the Rayovac Hybrid C, D, and 9V cells and Hybrid Universal charger.

Not sure what's happening in the US, but Rayovac seems to be making a big rechargeable battery push here in Canada.


----------



## Black Rose (Apr 27, 2009)

Well I couldn't resist. I picked up a AA pack tonight at Wal-Mart.

Here is the retail packaging (vs Costco packaging) for the Rayovac 4.0 cells.












I like the fact that they indicate the cells are pre-charged.

What I don't like is that they didn't put something on the packaging to indicate that they will hold their charge while waiting to be used.


----------



## ltiu (Apr 27, 2009)

Black Rose said:


> What I don't like is that they didn't put something on the packaging to indicate that they will hold their charge while waiting to be used.



Most don't care ... or don't even know that regular rechargeables lose power while just sitting.


----------



## TakeTheActive (Apr 27, 2009)

Black Rose said:


> ...Here is the retail packaging (vs Costco packaging) for the Rayovac 4.0 cells...


In your estimation (after my reading of your retail packaging IMG), how many folks in-or-around "Ottawa, ON, Canada" speak ONLY French and know no English? :thinking:


----------



## Black Rose (Apr 28, 2009)

TakeTheActive said:


> In your estimation (after my reading of your retail packaging IMG), how many folks in-or-around "Ottawa, ON, Canada" speak ONLY French and know no English? :thinking:


There is a large francophone population here, but this is also the Capital city of our country which is just a stones throw from the province of Quebec. 

I'm sure there are folks around here that can only speak French, but that's not the point of the packaging. 
Canada has two official languages, and because of that, all packaging is required to be in English and French.


----------



## ackbar (Apr 28, 2009)

Black Rose said:


> We now return you to the previously hibernating thread...
> 
> Today at Wal-Mart disovered 4-packs of Rayovac 4.0 AAA and AA batteries for $12.97 each.
> 
> These are a full dollar less than the Rayovac Hybrid cells.



Not as good as when the hybrid was first released. 9.97 from wal-wart and there were some $5 off manufacture's coupons (I think it was 5 bucks.. may have been a US only deal since I never took advantage of it)


----------



## ltiu (Apr 28, 2009)

TakeTheActive said:


> In your estimation (after my reading of your retail packaging IMG), how many folks in-or-around "Ottawa, ON, Canada" speak ONLY French and know no English? :thinking:



Does not matter.

By law, all product packaging in Canadia needs to be in English and French.


----------



## Black Rose (Apr 28, 2009)

I currently have the cells I bought yesterday on a break-in cycle on the C9000.

The discharge portion has completed and the results are:
2014, 1988, 2008, 2016

I think those are the highest break-in numbers I have personally recorded for Rayovac LSD AA cells.


----------



## nmos (Jun 22, 2009)

I picked up a couple packages of these Rayovac 4.0 in AAA from Battery Junction. The packaging on mine says "WITH LITHIUM TECHNOLOGY" and "READY-TO-USE LIKE LITHIUM" with the word Lithium in large red lettering. Sounds pretty misleading to me.


----------



## Black Rose (Jun 22, 2009)

Not necessarily.

Check this post which has a response from Rayovac about that packaging.

The response has a level of technical detail that I have never seen from Rayovac before.


----------



## Lightcrazycanuck (Jun 22, 2009)

Nice job Black Rose.
Hope to see some future tests on these batteries from you.:thumbsup::thumbsup:


----------



## Black Rose (Jun 22, 2009)

My ROV 4.0 AAs are currently relaxing with the other batteries for a self discharge test


----------



## Lightcrazycanuck (Jun 22, 2009)

Okay,

Maybe we can revive this tread a year from now.


----------



## Black Rose (Jun 22, 2009)

No, not that long 

End of next month I'll do a 3-month self discharge test on 2 of them to see how they are holding up.


----------



## GarageBoy (Jun 24, 2009)

Wonder how many people are gonna think they're primaries and chuck them


----------



## twinclouds (Jul 4, 2009)

Fry's is selling it for $5.79. It is a good price for a "R2U" NiMh anyway. (Even a good price for regular good NiMh.) Bought two and will try to test it out.


----------



## twinclouds (Jul 9, 2009)

Based on BC-900, the battery came with charge of ~1.5 Ah. Full charged capacity after refreshing are from 2.04 to 2.12 Ah. Just need to see how long they can hold the charge.


----------



## macgyver35 (Jul 28, 2009)

I saw these for the first time tonight at Fry's and picked them up on a lark, thinking I'd look them up here on here when I got home. As usual, my flashaholic brethren (and sistren) have not let me down!

4-pack AA $5.79
4-pack AAA $3.49

On the AA packaging of mine, there is a **note on the back that says "Batteries retain up to 80% capacity after 6 months of storage". No such mention on the AAA packaging. Fry's had boat loads of these things, but I never saw a Rayovac charger anywhere.


----------



## bcwang (Jul 29, 2009)

macgyver35 said:


> I saw these for the first time tonight at Fry's and picked them up on a lark, thinking I'd look them up here on here when I got home. As usual, my flashaholic brethren (and sistren) have not let me down!
> 
> 4-pack AA $5.79
> 4-pack AAA $3.49



Thanks for the heads up, that is cheap!!! for lsd nimh batteries. I went and got some this morning. While there, I noticed there are two types of cells in the same packaging. One type has 3 vent holes on the top while the other has none at all. I ended up buying the one that has no vents as their hybrid packaged cells had a vent so I'm hoping the no-vent kind will be newer and maybe better. Now I gotta go home and see if my older rayovac hybrids have bent holes or not, I don't quite remember...


----------



## alfreddajero (Jul 30, 2009)

I have yet to see these cells here.....just wanted to know how the testing was going........


----------



## Turbo DV8 (Jul 30, 2009)

All my Hybrids have three vent holes. All my Radio Shack LSD cells (rebranded ROV Hybrids) also have the three holes, but the top cover sits a little higher, so the vent holes on some of them are difficult to see without a magnifying glass and keen eye.


----------



## Black Rose (Jul 30, 2009)

alfreddajero said:


> I have yet to see these cells here.....just wanted to know how the testing was going........


I've got a set of AAs that are now ready for a 3-month self discharge test.
Will do that in the next few days.


----------



## alfreddajero (Jul 30, 2009)

I'll be looking for the results when there posted.....thanks bud.


----------



## Black Rose (Jul 30, 2009)

I charged four Rayovac 4.0 cells on April 28, 2009 using the Break-in cycle on my Maha C9000.

Cells 1 & 2 were put aside for a 3-month test. Cells 3 & 4 were put aside for a 6-month test.

All cells were stored at room temperature in the lower part of our house.

Cells 1 and 2 were discharged tonight at 500 mA.


```
Cell         Break-in         3-month        Self              Remaining 
             capacity         Capacity       discharge         Capacity
1              2014             1678           16.7%              83.3%
2              1988             1673           15.9%              84.1%
```
 
The packaging for the cells I bought did not make any claims regarding the capacity percentage retained after X months like my Hybrids.

It will be interesting to see what the numbers are for the 6-month test.
We shall find out in late October.


----------



## nomadh (Jul 31, 2009)

Fry's has the 4 pack AA 4.0 with "lithium technology" for $4.29 in San Diego. How do these compare to the others like enoloops etc? Also I bought some lsds from Frys a year ago. I dont have the make with me but I think they were a san diego or at least a CA company. So far they have also been doing pretty good in my digital camera. I believe they were $2 or $2.50 each at the time.
#5938404


----------



## Mr Happy (Jul 31, 2009)

nomadh said:


> Fry's has the 4 pack AA 4.0 with "lithium technology" for $4.29 in San Diego. How do these compare to the others like enoloops etc? Also I bought some lsds from Frys a year ago. I dont have the make with me but I think they were a san diego or at least a CA company. So far they have also been doing pretty good in my digital camera. I believe they were $2 or $2.50 each at the time.
> #5938404


The Rayovac 4.0's are cheap because they are not eneloops. There's eneloops and there's everything else, and there really is a difference.

As for the San Diego company, that would be Ultralast. Here it gets fuzzy, because Fry's sells some UniRoss Hybrios in bright red/green/black colors that are for all intents and purposes the same as eneloops. They are tremendously good value at $9.99/4. It's fuzzy because Ultralast was taken over by UniRoss, but I have some Ultralast LSD branded cells that are not as good as eneloops at all. It is not sufficient to look at the name on the label, you have to look at the details of the batteries themselves.


----------



## Black Rose (Aug 1, 2009)

I guess it depends where you live.

Up here, Rayovac 4.0 packs are only $1.00 cheaper than Rayovac Hybrid packs and $5.00 cheaper than Duraloop packs.


----------



## lolzertank (Aug 6, 2009)

I picked up a 4 pack of AAAs today for $3.49. The eneloops next to them were $13. They came 1.29V out of the box, which seems like they hold a charge decently well. Disclaimer: I came from Energizer 2500s. :green:


----------



## alfreddajero (Aug 6, 2009)

Thats a big improvement coming from those.....you should be a lot happier now.


----------



## Black Rose (Nov 9, 2009)

Black Rose said:


> It will be interesting to see what the numbers are for the 6-month test.
> We shall find out in late October.


And here are the 6-month results:

As stated previously in post #65, I charged four Rayovac 4.0 cells on April 28, 2009 using the Break-in cycle on my Maha C9000.

Cells 1 & 2 were put aside for a 3-month test (results in post #65). 
Cells 3 & 4 were put aside for a 6-month test.

All cells were stored at room temperature in the lower part of our house.

Cells 3 and 4 were discharged last night at 500 mA.


```
Cell         Break-in         6-month        Self              Remaining 
             capacity         Capacity       discharge         Capacity
3              2008             1584           21.1%              78.9%
4              2016             1594           20.9%              79.1%
```


----------



## alfreddajero (Nov 9, 2009)

For the price of the batts they didnt seem to do too bad.


----------



## Black Rose (Nov 9, 2009)

Yes, I think they did quite well. 

From my own limited test, it shows that the biggest self discharge happens sometime within the first 3 months and then slows down significantly.


----------



## PhantomPhoton (Nov 9, 2009)

Funny, I still haven't seen the new 4.0 packaging in store around my area yet (and I have been looking).
:mecry:


----------



## alfreddajero (Nov 9, 2009)

Dont worry your not the only one......might have to order some from Batteryjunction.


----------



## Wits' End (Nov 12, 2009)

alfreddajero said:


> Dont worry your not the only one......might have to order some from Batteryjunction.



I just got some in from BJ, They seem good. I loaded up my EDCs w/ them, after charging, and will report back. No real new information from me, three vent holes, no rechargeable indication on them :thumbsdow


----------



## eydaimon (Nov 14, 2009)

So these run for $8.23 for 2 packs of four. I.e. about $1 per battery at Amazon.com (3.74 + $4.49 shipping http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B002M3TLDK/)

How are they compared to the eneloop?

I've looked here http://candlepowerforums.com/vb/showpost.php?p=1804957&postcount=1

However, I don't know what those numbers tell me. At $1 per battery, it seems very hard to beat the rayovac though?


----------



## Mr Happy (Nov 14, 2009)

The Rayovac 4.0 is not as good as Eneloop, but the price is of course very attractive. As the saying goes, "you pays your money and you takes your choice".


----------



## eydaimon (Nov 14, 2009)

Mr Happy said:


> The Rayovac 4.0 is not as good as Eneloop, but the price is of course very attractive. As the saying goes, "you pays your money and you takes your choice".



Would you be able to offer some insight to how different they are? Or how I can read the numbers myself so I can tell?


----------



## Mr Happy (Nov 14, 2009)

eydaimon said:


> Would you be able to offer some insight to how different they are? Or how I can read the numbers myself so I can tell?


I can give you some qualitative statements. A definitive analysis with all the numbers is not really out there. People buy the cells, report back what they find, and gradually a picture is formed.

In general terms, some differences between Rayovacs and Eneloops include:

1. Consistency

Consistency is an indicator of quality. If you buy a pack of Eneloops you will find remarkable consistency between cells, often less than 1% variation in test capacity and 1 mV in precharged voltage. Other brands are rarely this good.

2. Self-discharge performance

Eneloop is the market leader here with 75% remaining after three years in storage.

3. Durability

How well do the cells hold up after months of use and many charge cycles? Eneloops have proven to be rock solid here, whereas other cells have been reported to show more of a decline in performance over time.

4. Internal resistance and voltage under load

Eneloops are remarkably good at this with lower resistance and higher voltage than any cell except special purpose high power cells. In many applications you may not notice but where performance is critical it can make a difference. This is particularly noticeable in the AAA size where I find the Rayovac cells to be very weak compared to Eneloops.

Also bear in mind that the Rayovac Hybrid/4.0 is not the only other choice out there. There is also the GP ReCyko type, which while not quite as good as eneloop is regarded by many as a strong performer.

Secondly Eneloops are strong but they are not unbreakable. If you abuse them hard enough you can still damage them.


----------



## eydaimon (Nov 15, 2009)

Mr Happy said:


> I can give you some qualitative statements.



Hi, thanks for taking the time. I appreciate the response.


----------



## EngrPaul (Nov 24, 2009)

Only $4 after coupon at battery junction this week:

http://www.batteryjunction.com/black-friday.html


----------



## freeze12 (Nov 25, 2009)

I just purchased 4 - 4pks= 16 cells and received them today 11/25/09 from Amazon for:

Date: November 19, 2009

Amazon Order #: 104-3530224-2505867

2 of Rayovac 4.0 AA 4-PACK, (Pack of 2), $3.74*

*above item(s) sold by and shipped from Home Financial 
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Item Subtotal: $7.48
Shipping & Handling: $6.48 

Total: $13.96

Paid by Visa: $13.96


----------



## MarioJP (Nov 25, 2009)

So whats so special about these cells??


----------



## Black Rose (Nov 25, 2009)

They are basically Rayovac Hybrids with a different wrapper, some minor tweaks, and sell for less.


----------



## gswitter (Nov 26, 2009)

I picked up a few 4-packs at Fry's yesterday. When I was checking out, the customer at the next register noticed them, and made a point to caution me about charging them. He was surprised when I pointed out the "Like Lithium".

I've been frustrated by Sanyo's inability to market the Eneloops, but I literally want drag the Rayovac marketing team out in the street and flog them.


----------



## Mr Happy (Nov 26, 2009)

gswitter said:


> I picked up a few 4-packs at Fry's yesterday. When I was checking out, the customer at the next register noticed them, and made a point to caution me about charging them. He was surprised when I pointed out the "Like Lithium".


What was the customer saying -- he cautioned you that you _should_ charge them, or that you _shouldn't _charge them? To an average person the "like lithium" comment would suggest against charging of course, because it makes them sound like Energizer lithiums.


----------



## gswitter (Nov 28, 2009)

The other customer assumed they were rechargeable lithiums.


----------



## Kestrel (Dec 21, 2009)

gswitter said:


> I've been frustrated by Sanyo's inability to market the Eneloops, but I literally want drag the Rayovac marketing team out in the street and flog them.


+1 

Thanks BR and MH with all the info & updates.

So I'll be picking up 8 of these shortly (@ the 'Amazon price') and was doing a short CPF search to check up on the latest 'user experiences' on these? I've come across scattered anecdotal reports of non-Eneloop LSD's occasionally losing their LSD behaviour...?
Thx,
K


----------



## lolzertank (Dec 21, 2009)

Okay, now that I've fixed my BC-9009...

All four of my AAs get between 2.12-2.16Ah on refresh mode at 500mA charge, 250mA discharge.

The AAAs got about 800mAh at 350mA discharge.

Pretty nice for about a dollar a piece.


----------



## TakeTheActive (Dec 21, 2009)

lolzertank said:


> Okay, *now that I've fixed my BC-9009*...


You added the '*filter caps*'?

CLICK on my GREEN Sig Line LINK, go to the '*La Crosse BC-900*' Section and read the LINKs with the *Keyword: MOD*


----------



## ltiu (Dec 25, 2009)

Dan_Z said:


> Anyway, Rayovac 4.0 are 2100mAHR LSD NiMH batteries. The battery labeling is aimed at a less (much less) technical audience. It would have been nice if Rayovac had mentioned Hybrid, mAHR capacity and the like, in their labeling, even in the small print. The omissions seem purposeful. Perhaps to make the product appear special and new is part of a marketing ploy.



Well, you don't see capacity in lithiums and alkalines either. Maybe all types of batteries need capacity labels?


----------



## batmanacw (Dec 25, 2009)

I have not noticed these on the shelf so far, but it is awesome to know something about them ahead of time.


----------



## ltiu (Dec 25, 2009)

batmanacw said:


> I have not noticed these on the shelf so far, but it is awesome to know something about them ahead of time.



So far, I have seen/heard of these at Frys and Costco.


----------



## GSMblue (Dec 26, 2009)

Hi all, a new user here. I will spare the background for now suffice to say these Rayovac 4.0 cells really peaked my interest when I was in Fry's last week. I have run the firt 4 cells through my C9000 and break in cycle resulted in the following:


1.41V 1979 mAh
1.4V 1942 mAh
1.41V 1962 mAh
1.41V 1944 mAh


I have another 4 cells breaking in now with a further 8 in the wings. I will post the results in of them in due course.... I have added my own serial numbers to all these cells so I can track their progress as I use them...


----------



## alfreddajero (Dec 26, 2009)

I would do an R/A and see what you get.....


----------



## ltiu (Dec 27, 2009)

GSMblue said:


> Hi all, a new user here. I will spare the background for now suffice to say these Rayovac 4.0 cells really peaked my interest when I was in Fry's last week. I have run the firt 4 cells through my C9000 and break in cycle resulted in the following:
> 
> 
> 1.41V 1979 mAh
> ...



Thanks for doing this. These Rayovac 4.0 are definitely a winners for their price/performance ratio.

A dollar each, can't beat that.


----------



## GSMblue (Dec 28, 2009)

I will do a R&A once I get through the initial break in for the 4 sets of 4.0 cells I bought. In the mean time here are the details for the second set of cells, 28mAh spread is pretty good for $5.79+tax...

1.42V 1953mAh
1.42V 1974mAh
1.42V 1946mAh
1.42V 1959mAh

The third set are now sat in the C9000 beginning their break in, I will post them up when done. 

Once I get back form my NYE snowboarding trip I will break in the final set of cells then I will start on the R&A so I can group them in to sets. I will post the results as they come in.

FYI: Primary use will be for my travel telescope (Nexstar5SE), it eats these things up when out in the cold so having them matched makes a huge difference... (I have eneloops in the wings waiting to go through this process too)

Background: Astrophysicist and ex RC model racer. My wife thinks I am mad but I really appreciate good cells, chargers and analyzers!


----------



## Black Rose (Dec 28, 2009)

GSMblue said:


> Once I get back form my NYE snowboarding trip I will break in the final set of cells then I will start on the R&A so I can group them in to sets.


You could use the results from the break-in as well to group them



> My wife thinks I am mad but I really appreciate good cells, chargers and analyzers!


I think most of our spouses think we are mad


----------



## ada_potato (Dec 28, 2009)

$6.98 for 8 batteries shipped, not bad.

http://www.adorama.com/BYRAA4042.html?emailprice=t


----------



## ltiu (Dec 28, 2009)

ada_potato said:


> $6.98 for 8 batteries shipped, not bad.
> 
> http://www.adorama.com/BYRAA4042.html?emailprice=t



Not bad at all. Now I have an over supply of Rayovac 4.0s.


----------



## alfreddajero (Dec 28, 2009)

You should have gotten two maha's....lol....yes i know what you guys mean....as im still into rc's and race once in awhile, that is when i have time to do so. That is a damn good price for the batts.


----------



## GSMblue (Dec 28, 2009)

Black Rose said:


> You could use the results from the break-in as well to group them




Yep, but I have some time on my hands  Don't need the travel scope for 2 more weeks so may as well be thorough!

My wife thinks I am a head case, but matching cells, astrophotography and racing model cars is far safer then letting me run around with the boys in the various dive bars!!! 

At least she can keep an eye on me this way


----------



## Black Rose (Dec 28, 2009)

ltiu said:


> Not bad at all. Now I have an over supply of Rayovac 4.0s.


Which means you now must buy some more lights or electronics to use them in, otherwise they will go to waste.

That's what I tell my wife anyway


----------



## GSMblue (Jan 5, 2010)

Ok let's see if this table works.....


Break in info: 
Cell number mAh	Volts

001	1979	1.41
002	1942	1.40
003	1962	1.41
004	1944	1.41
005	1953	1.42
006	1974	1.42
007	1946	1.42
008	1959	1.42
009	1909	1.40
010	1972	1.41
011	1880	1.40
012	1897	1.40
013	2005	1.40
014	1979	1.40
015	1950	1.40
016	1943	1.40

I have the last set of 4 cells in break in now. I do not Think I will have time to R&A them all before I head to Maui, but I will try and get at least 8 of them through....


----------



## alfreddajero (Jan 5, 2010)

So far the cells are looking good.......let us know how the vacation goes.


----------



## TakeTheActive (Jan 6, 2010)

GSMblue said:


> Ok let's see if this table works.....
> 
> 
> Break in info:
> ...



Ok let's see if this table works.....

```
Rayovac 4.0 2000mAh AA   DT-CD   |  #1    #2    #3    #4
---------------------------------+---------------------------
01/05/10 C9000 Voltage Reading   | 1.41  1.40  1.41  1.41 VDC
01/05/10 C9000 Break-In: 2000    | 1979  1942  1962  1944 mAh
[Bought: MM/DD/YYYY - NEW]

Rayovac 4.0 2000mAh AA   DT-CD   |  #5    #6    #7    #8
---------------------------------+---------------------------
01/05/10 C9000 Voltage Reading   | 1.42  1.42  1.42  1.42 VDC
01/05/10 C9000 Break-In: 2000    | 1953  1974  1946  1959 mAh
[Bought: MM/DD/YYYY - NEW]

Rayovac 4.0 2000mAh AA   DT-CD   |  #9   #10   #11   #12
---------------------------------+---------------------------
01/05/10 C9000 Voltage Reading   | 1.40  1.41  1.40  1.40 VDC
01/05/10 C9000 Break-In: 2000    | 1909  1972  1880  1897 mAh
[Bought: MM/DD/YYYY - NEW]

Rayovac 4.0 2000mAh AA   DT-CD   | #13   #14   #15   #16
---------------------------------+---------------------------
01/05/10 C9000 Voltage Reading   | 1.40  1.40  1.40  1.40 VDC
01/05/10 C9000 Break-In: 2000    | 2005  1979  1950  1943 mAh
[Bought: MM/DD/YYYY - NEW]
```
:wave:


----------



## ltiu (Jan 6, 2010)

TakeTheActive said:


> Ok let's see if this table works.....
> 
> ```
> ...
> ...



When you say "NEW", you mean new from the original packaging, uncharged? Or new but charged up/fresh from the charger?


----------



## alfreddajero (Jan 6, 2010)

I think its time for you to get another maha....lol. It seems that your getting some awesome numbers.


----------



## hopkins (Jan 7, 2010)

I bought a package of 4 last summer and they work fine in a portable
radio I leave on (by mistake) often, for days in our work shop.

At Fry's just before Christmas looked for more in the battery aisle, none
seen, then while in line to the checkout there was a big basket of these
Rayovac 4.0's (Campbell CA store) right there near the candy. Nice.
Wonder what thinking led to that placement?


----------



## ltiu (Jan 7, 2010)

Once upon a time, I notice Frys had two sets of battery racks in the same store, one in the battery aisle and another in the camera section.

The exact same batteries in the camera section costs less :thinking:


----------



## Dr. Goode (Jan 7, 2010)

I have also been paying attention to the AA Rayovac 4.0. This battery has been heavily promoted at a substantial discount by BatteryJunction.com, whose ad says it is a NiMH battery. 

During the Christmas season, the battery packaging shown on BatteryJunction.com also illustrated the capacity of this battery to be 2300 mAh - which is 100 mAh higher than the the highest capacity AA LSD that I have heard about. The claim of 2300 mah has since mysteriously disappeared from the package depicted by BatteryJunction.com. Yet BatteryJunction.com ad copy CONTINUES to promote the capacity of this battery at 2300mAh.

Rayovac does not advertise capacity or print such info on their batteries or packaging - which is very troubling to me. However, I understand that Rayovac rates their NiMH LSDs at 2100 mAh - not 2300. This situation deserves an explanation.


----------



## ltiu (Jan 7, 2010)

Dr. Goode said:


> However, I understand that Rayovac rates their NiMH LSDs at 2100 mAh - not 2300. This situation deserves an explanation.



It doesn't really matter what the manufacturer says. What matters is what it actually is as measured by folks with Mahas.


----------



## Black Rose (Jan 7, 2010)

Dr. Goode said:


> Rayovac does not advertise capacity or print such info on their batteries or packaging - which is very troubling to me. However, I understand that Rayovac rates their NiMH LSDs at 2100 mAh - not 2300. This situation deserves an explanation.


The initial batch of Rayovac 4.0s AA cells were 2100 mAh cells.

Subsequent batches are supposed to be 2300 mAh cells.

The ones I have are from the first batch.


----------



## Mr Happy (Jan 7, 2010)

If you assume any pre-charged or low self-discharge NiMH cell is 2000 mAh you will not be far wrong. This is true of mostly all of them, +/- 100 mAh.


----------



## Kestrel (Jan 8, 2010)

Mr Happy said:


> If you assume any pre-charged or low self-discharge NiMH cell is 2000 mAh you will not be far wrong. This is true of mostly all of them, +/- 100 mAh.


Which reminds me of my favorite saying - a pessimist is never disappointed.


----------



## GSMblue (Jan 8, 2010)

Kestrel said:


> Which reminds me of my favorite saying - a pessimist is never disappointed.



And the optimist exists so the pessimist knows exactly how bad off they are...


----------



## MattK (Jan 31, 2010)

Dr. Goode said:


> I have also been paying attention to the AA Rayovac 4.0. This battery has been heavily promoted at a substantial discount by BatteryJunction.com, whose ad says it is a NiMH battery.
> 
> During the Christmas season, the battery packaging shown on BatteryJunction.com also illustrated the capacity of this battery to be 2300 mAh - which is 100 mAh higher than the the highest capacity AA LSD that I have heard about. The claim of 2300 mah has since mysteriously disappeared from the package depicted by BatteryJunction.com. Yet BatteryJunction.com ad copy CONTINUES to promote the capacity of this battery at 2300mAh.
> 
> Rayovac does not advertise capacity or print such info on their batteries or packaging - which is very troubling to me. However, I understand that Rayovac rates their NiMH LSDs at 2100 mAh - not 2300. This situation deserves an explanation.



We have received numerous emails about this. Any number of them of them self-assured tracts on why our listing is wrong.

The battery packaing illustrated in our site image never showed 2300mah and no change has been made to the listing except for the price moving up/down. No capacity is or has ever been shown on the Rayovac 4.0 LSD cell packaging.

We have a marketing document from Rayovac clearly and repeatedly stating these cells to be rated at 2300mah. We have provided redacted versions of this document (it has pricing and other information not meant for general release) to numerous people who have written inquiring about this.

Lastly, LSD cells are now available from 2 factories at nominal capacities of 2300 and 2500. Energizer now 'makes' the new style 'hybrid' LSD's as their only current NiMh AA offering - they're marketing them as 2350mah and as holding their charge for 6 months.

Facts are a wonderful thing.


----------



## UserName (Jan 31, 2010)

Does anyone else think it is odd, that these cells have been out for over a year, and there's no mention of them, at all, on rayovac's website? I can find a spec sheet for their primaries, regular nimh, "high energy" nimh, and hybrids, but no mention of these "4.0's", unless my google-style kung fu is no good.


----------



## Mr Happy (Jan 31, 2010)

UserName said:


> Does anyone else think it is odd, that these cells have been out for over a year, and there's no mention of them, at all, on rayovac's website? I can find a spec sheet for their primaries, regular nimh, "high energy" nimh, and hybrids, but no mention of these "4.0's", unless my google-style kung fu is no good.


The "Rayovac 4.0" is a special retail branding of the Rayovac Hybrid. So if you are looking for a data sheet the one for the Hybrid will have the relevant information. I'm not sure exactly, but I think Rayovac has been doing a bit of a marketing experiment to find ways to increase the sales volume of their product.


----------



## Black Rose (Jan 31, 2010)

Mr Happy said:


> The "Rayovac 4.0" is a special retail branding of the Rayovac Hybrid. So if you are looking for a data sheet the one for the Hybrid will have the relevant information. I'm not sure exactly, but I think Rayovac has been doing a bit of a marketing experiment to find ways to increase the sales volume of their product.


Here is the explanation of how the "Rayovac 4.0" came to be.

I wonder what the "4.0" actually represents.


----------



## kramer5150 (Jan 31, 2010)

How well are these cells working for you all? I have to admit. I am just now getting into AA-NiMH setups more, and I picked up 8 of these cells at Frys yesterday. I top off my cells every month, so self discharge longevity is not really that much of a priority for me.

thanks to all!!


----------



## alfreddajero (Jan 31, 2010)

I still have'nt seen those cells around here.....i would rather try not to order the batts online since shipping on some sites are just outrageous.


----------



## gswitter (Feb 1, 2010)

kramer5150 said:


> How well are these cells working for you all?


I picked up a few pack from Fry's over the holidays, hoping to reclaim some of the Eneloops from my daughter's toys. The Rayovac's seem up to the task in general, but my unscientific observations are that I'm recharging them more often than the Eneloops. The Rayovac's usually show slightly greater capacity on the MH-C9000, so draw your own conclusions.


----------



## Phaserburn (Feb 1, 2010)

I grabbed a bunch of these cheap; they have been working alright for me so far, no complaints.


----------



## Firecop (Feb 1, 2010)

If it matters, I bought a bunch of these when they were on sale and just recently tried them against some Eneloops.

In an unscientific test, the Eneloops provided 1.5a to an XR-E, while the Rayovacs only gave 1a. I didn't pay attention to the charge state, as both sets of batteries were in my "charged" pile. Still, a 50% difference is quite noticeable...

Here's a new test, fresh off my Maha C-808m charger in a stock W200 (3xAA):

Rayovac - 4.17v 1.8a
Eneloop - 4.4v 2.9a


----------



## MattK (Feb 1, 2010)

1.5A vs 1A? Huh?

What are you testing with? Regardless I'd run some more cycles on those Rayovacs - those numbers seem illogical.


----------



## Firecop (Feb 2, 2010)

That's what I thought - I edited my last post with the numbers. I used the same DMM to check the amperage draw in the circuit. I know leds have a steep Vf/power curve, but .2 volt difference shouldn't make a 1 amp draw difference, should it?


----------



## Phaserburn (Feb 2, 2010)

Pretty sure something is wrong with your setup. Yes, voltage can play a very big part in something like this. Try using a hi wattage incan bulb if you have one available for consistency. The batteries should both have similar voltages coming off the charger.


----------



## Mr Happy (Feb 2, 2010)

Firecop said:


> That's what I thought - I edited my last post with the numbers. I used the same DMM to check the amperage draw in the circuit. I know leds have a steep Vf/power curve, but .2 volt difference shouldn't make a 1 amp draw difference, should it?


If you are direct driving a high power LED, and if one battery (Eneloop) also has a lower internal resistance than the other, then yes I could really believe it might.


----------



## kramer5150 (Feb 2, 2010)

I have found the amount of spring compression to have a dramatic effect of current draw, with my DIY P60 modules and 18650 cells. If I touch the battery lightly to the +B spring my MCE drop in draws ~2.1A. Pushing the 18650 hard so the +B spring is completely compressed draws ~2.7A.

One of these days I will get around to replacing the +B spring with a short copper bus bar.


----------



## MattK (Feb 2, 2010)

~.08V per cell won't equal 1A in discharge regardless over 3 cells; the internal resitance would have to be crazy high.

R = P / I 2 so the resistance of the ROV's would have to be 1.28704Ω over 3 cells when it should be ~30mΩ to 100mΩ per cell - so it would have to be more than 400% above the highest normal range.


----------



## Mr Happy (Feb 2, 2010)

4.17/3 = 1.39, so according to the numbers the Rayovacs are maintaining 1.39 V per cell while delivering 1.8 A into a load. That's pretty good performance and suggests nothing bad about the cells at all.


----------



## Beacon of Light (Feb 2, 2010)

MattK said:


> Lastly, LSD cells are now available from 2 factories at nominal capacities of 2300 and 2500. Energizer now 'makes' the new style 'hybrid' LSD's as their only current NiMh AA offering - they're marketing them as 2350mah and as holding their charge for 6 months.
> 
> Facts are a wonderful thing.



Matt, please tell us about these Energizer 2350s and if they suffer from the same fast discharge as the older 2500s from a few years before.


----------



## MattK (Feb 2, 2010)

Not likely at all. While we haven't done any testing yet the specs speak for themselves. Remember, these replace the 2500's as their 'standard' AA NiMh product.

Given it's capacity I believe it to be the latest generation of 'hybrid' NiMh - between LSD and high capacity:

"The Energizer® Rechargeable® AA battery continues to last 4x longer* in digital cameras, hold its charge up to six full months, and now can be charged up to 150 more times**."


2350mah and 6 months is exactly the minimum spec for this new style AA NIMh Hybrid that the factory that makes our Titaniums offered us last June. A product we've been playing with the idea of releasing...maybe we should have 8 months ago


----------



## Beacon of Light (Feb 2, 2010)

Do you carry those Titanium 2300LSD AAs? I'm guessing it's the same factory that makes the Tenergy R2U 2300 LSD AAs. I forget if I have asked you before why you only carry the 2600MaH high capacity Tenergys but not the Ready to Use precharged LSD Tenergy batteries. I have been buying them from All-battery and was disappointed you didn't carry them as I would be buying them from your store instead. They are very very good LSD batteries.



MattK said:


> Not likely at all. While we haven't done any testing yet the specs speak for themselves. Remember, these replace the 2500's as their 'standard' AA NiMh product.
> 
> Given it's capacity I believe it to be the latest generation of 'hybrid' NiMh - between LSD and high capacity:
> 
> ...


----------



## MattK (Feb 2, 2010)

No, we considered it but didn't make them. Ours would have been 2500mah as that's the factories nominanal rating for the top batch - the 2350 is a minimal rating - and with this factory that's guaranteed.

The Tenergy 2300mAh R2U are 2100's that are enthusiastically labelled - not the new hybrid technology.We had a better deal on the higher capacity Rayovacs so we went that way instead.


----------



## Mr Happy (Feb 2, 2010)

MattK said:


> "enthusiastically labelled"


----------



## MattK (Feb 2, 2010)

Maybe I should have said optimistically?


----------



## UserName (Feb 2, 2010)

I'd go with "generously"


----------



## Beacon of Light (Feb 2, 2010)

Thanks for that answer Matt.


----------



## Warp (Feb 3, 2010)

*I havn't read all of the replies*


Rayovac is obviously and intentionally attempting to mislead consumers with their use and placement of the word "lithium" on the packaging.

I personally do my best to never purchase products that are advertised in such a way. 

Shame on them!


That is all.


----------



## ewok8 (Feb 3, 2010)

Anyone who is interested in trying these for themselves should visit the Good Deals section of the Marketplace for a recent post about a sale.


----------



## Elliot (Feb 3, 2010)

ewok8 is talking about the normal FRY's good deal. If you happen to have a Fry near you. Online battery experts like Matt are better for most of us.


----------



## MarioJP (Feb 3, 2010)

so whats so special about these cells again?


----------



## Elliot (Feb 3, 2010)

They are priced to sell and are close to eneloops in performance.


----------



## Dposcorp (Feb 12, 2010)

This thread has been very helpful, so I registered just to post a deal I found on these batteries.



> Adorama has this Rayovac 4.0 Rechargeable AAA Batteries 4-Pack for $5 with free shipping.



http://bensbargains.net/deal/130971/

They were actually $5.49, but still a good deal.

Now, does anyone know where to get the best price on a La Crosse charger?
Which model is the best deal?
Thanks in advance


----------



## DM51 (Feb 12, 2010)

Welcome to CPF, Dposcorp.

There is a sub-forum in CPF MarketPlace where members can post details of Good Deals they have found. Please by all means post it there.

You'll need to register separately for CPFMP if you have not already done so.


----------

