# Where do "real" Eneloops come from?



## Rosoku Chikara (Jun 1, 2014)

There seems to be renewed interest in the question of who owns the Eneloop technology, and where Eneloop cells come from. I cannot speak to any new "Chinese" Eneloops, but I think I can shed some light on this matter. (I have looked into it quite a bit.)

The Sanyo Eneloops were developed in a manufacturing plant in Takasaki City, not so very far from my home in Japan. The plant was originally owned by Toshiba, and it possible (likely?) that some of the early basic research was conducted by Toshiba. The Toshiba Electric group sold off their NiMH battery business to the Sanyo Electric group in April, 2001, and "Sanyo Energy Takasaki Co., Ltd." was born. (It was renamed "Sanyo Energy Twicell Co., Ltd." in April, 2003.)

Up to this point, things are very clear. But, they get a bit murkier when Sanyo sells its "battery business" to Panasonic, in 2009. Fujitsu remains extremely tight-lipped about this matter, but it seems clear enough that, due to international anti-trust concerns, Panasonic was allowed to purchase the Eneloop brand, but not the technology. The technology (and manufacturing plant) were sold off to Fujitsu and "Sanyo Energy Twicell Co., Ltd." was renamed "FDK Twicell Co., Ltd." Fujitsu will not confirm or deny the fact that they manufacturer Eneloops for Panasonic (clearly, they have been asked not to talk about it), but I am increasingly convinced that this one Fujitsu manufacturing plant in Takasai City is the only source of "real" Eneloops cells in the world.

However, since Panasonic clearly owns the Eneloop brand and marketing rights, Panasonic can ask any battery manufacturer to make some cells called "Eneloop," and indeed they will be "genuine" Eneloops. Panasonic controls what the definition of an "Eneloop" is... So, if it says Panasonic on it, it is real enough. But, unless it is actually made by FDK in Takasaki City, I would say that it is highly unlikely that the technology is the same. 

It is possible, however, that FDK could expand their capacity or attempt to lower costs by establishing another manufacturing plant overseas. If so, such cells might use the exact same technology as the Takasaki plant.

Also, bear in mind that FDK is free to sell cells to anyone else in the world, so long as they don't say "Eneloop" on them. And, indeed they have made some attempt to sell what (according to HKJ's recent review) appears to be cells that are exactly the same as latest generation Panasonic Eneloops, under they own FDK brand.


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## mcnair55 (Jun 1, 2014)

Why oh why are people so concerned about who owns what who makes what.It does not matter to you me or the gate post.Industrial contracts between makers/designers are non of our business at all and no amount of conjecture will get you any nearer the contractual obligations between parties concerned.

As long as i can buy a decent Eneloop off the shelf and it gives me good service you can make it on Mars for all i care.You can also bench test all you want which to me is a total cop out as using in the field is the best test.


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## Viking (Jun 1, 2014)

Hi Rosoku Chikara

That was pretty much the same conclusion I came to , by reading the very interesting other thread and the linked takeover agreement between FDK/Fujitsu and Sanyo.
The only thing that bothered me a little bit , was how could FDK/Fujitsu have obtained the rights to the technology , but not the important brand name it self. Although I believe that has been seen before.

But normally when you are buying a whole business you will get both.
And FDK/Fujitsu was buying the business , not just the plant ( automobile division excluded ).

But your information regarding anti-trust laws can be the reason for that.

Thanks for sharing.


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## Rosoku Chikara (Jun 1, 2014)

Viking said:


> ...But normally when you are buying a whole business you will get both. And FDK/Fujitsu was buying the business , not just the plant...<snip>



I think Panasonic did indeed want "everything." But, then they would have controlled an enormous percentage of the world's NiMH production capacity. (At least at that time.) So, the entire deal between Sanyo and Panasonic was put at risk, until they figured out a solution to this anti-trust issue. 

The apparent "solution" that they decided upon, was that they could skirt any anti-trust issues, if they didn't actually manufacture the Eneloop cells. So, they could own the extremely valuable Eneloop brand (at least valuable to those who know what Eneloops are) and potentially position themselves as the No.1 NiMH battery brand in the world, so long as they didn't actually own the plant itself.

Fujitsu apparently agreed to purchase the Takasaki plant from Sanyo prior to the Sanyo/Panasonic merger, and some kind of sales contract was entered into between Fujitsu and Panasonic for FDK to continue to supply Eneloops to Panasonic on an OEM basis after the merger.

I suspect Fujitsu has slowly grown weary of their "behind-the-scenes" role, and have become increasingly interested in the more lucrative business of selling cells that compete directly with Eneloops.

Unfortunately, Fujitsu is in a tough spot, because they appear to be bound by some kind of secrecy agreement which prevents them from simply telling everyone that they manufacture the Eneloop cells for Panasonic, and therefore making it clear that the other NiMH cells that they sell (FDK brand, and perhaps "Duraloops," etc.) are truly identical to the increasingly famous and popular Eneloop cells.


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## 18650 (Jun 1, 2014)

mcnair55 said:


> Why oh why are people so concerned about who owns what who makes what.It does not matter to you me or the gate post.Industrial contracts between makers/designers are non of our business at all and no amount of conjecture will get you any nearer the contractual obligations between parties concerned. As long as i can buy a decent Eneloop off the shelf and it gives me good service you can make it on Mars for all i care.You can also bench test all you want which to me is a total cop out as using in the field is the best test.


 So we've gone from "Moving plants/new owners does not change the process in any way what so ever." to "Who cares if it's true????"


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## välineurheilija (Jun 1, 2014)




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## Rosoku Chikara (Jun 1, 2014)

Please gentlemen, let's try to focus on the subject. I don't know what's been going on with these recent posts on this and related threads, but there may actually be a few people out there who are interested in knowing what can be known (at this point) about the Panasonic/Eneloop situation, and what it may mean for the future of the brand. Please try to maintain some decorum.


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## mcnair55 (Jun 1, 2014)

18650 said:


> So we've gone from "Moving plants/new owners does not change the process in any way what so ever." to "Who cares if it's true????"



And your point is Mr 18650 ?


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## Richwouldnt (Jun 1, 2014)

mcnair55 said:


> Why oh why are people so concerned about who owns what who makes what.It does not matter to you me or the gate post.Industrial contracts between makers/designers are non of our business at all and no amount of conjecture will get you any nearer the contractual obligations between parties concerned.
> 
> As long as i can buy a decent Eneloop off the shelf and it gives me good service you can make it on Mars for all i care.You can also bench test all you want which to me is a total cop out as using in the field is the best test.



To me the question is how long can I get a true Eneloop and be sure what I am getting. After all lights like the Nitecore EAX Hammer are almost totally dependent on Eneloops or other very low internal resistance AA NiMH batteries. The only other viable choice would be Energizer Ultimate Lithium cells and who can afford those to feed a light like the Hammer? More and more 4AA and 8 AA cell high power lights out there that are pretty much designed to be run on Eneloops or equivalent NiMH batteries. And a lot of the competitors NiMH batteries are c*** compared to the Eneloops.


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## Etsu (Jun 1, 2014)

Unfortunately, the corporate practice of maximizing short-term profits at the expense of long-term profits is all too common. Sounds like Panasonic is going to leverage the quality Eneloop brand and use it to crank out mediocre batteries from Chinese plants. This will work for a few years, until people catch on that their new Eneloop cells are no better than other lower quality brands.

Guess I'll have to start looking for FDK cells, if your theory is true.


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## ACruceSalus (Jun 1, 2014)

Rosoku Chikara said:


> Unfortunately, Fujitsu is in a tough spot, because they appear to be bound by some kind of secrecy agreement which prevents them from simply telling everyone that they manufacture the Eneloop cells for Panasonic, and therefore making it clear that the other NiMH cells that they sell (FDK brand, and perhaps "Duraloops," etc.) are truly identical to the increasingly famous and popular Eneloop cells.




First of all thank you for sharing your hard found information about the Eneloops. At the very least I find it interesting but it does get to the trustworthiness of a company.

When you speak about Duraloops are you referring to Duracell Rechargeable StayCharged cells (packaging labeled ION Core also) as stated in the "Flashlight Wiki" (http://flashlightwiki.com/Eneloop).

"*The term "duraloop" (a CPF nickname, not an official name) refers to Duracell precharged cells (currently labeled "StayCharged") that are made in Japan and are white around the positive button just like Eneloops, and in fact are thought to be Eneloops re-badged as Duracells. Other Duracell precharged cells have a black top and are made in China, and are not called "duraloop." Duracell also makes non-LSD NiMH batteries (not marked precharged, usually 2450 or 2650 mAh) which may have a green top." 

*If so then I have some of these duraloop cells purchased about one month ago but they have black not white tops and they were made in Japan. I can't speak to their quality yet.


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## ChrisGarrett (Jun 1, 2014)

ACruceSalus said:


> First of all thank you for sharing your hard found information about the Eneloops. At the very least I find it interesting but it does get to the trustworthiness of a company.
> 
> When you speak about Duraloops are you referring to Duracell Rechargeable StayCharged cells (packaging labeled ION Core also) as stated in the "Flashlight Wiki" (http://flashlightwiki.com/Eneloop).
> 
> ...



Do you have the Ion Core 2400mAh Japanese made cells marketed by Duracell?

These are thought to be Eneloop XX/Pros.

500 cycles and C-9000ing in at about 2450mAh. You can find them at ChinaMart, Target and other places for about $11.00 per quad, so a great deal for us. I've got some that I'll be doing a 1 year discharge test on if I can wait that long, lol.

I think that after a Maha break-in, all eight of mine tested in at right at, or above, 2400mAh.

Black top piece, copper top, 'durablock,' green foil bottom wrapper, 2400mAh, made in Japan.

Chris


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## uk_caver (Jun 1, 2014)

Etsu said:


> Unfortunately, the corporate practice of maximizing short-term profits at the expense of long-term profits is all too common. Sounds like Panasonic is going to leverage the quality Eneloop brand and use it to crank out mediocre batteries from Chinese plants. This will work for a few years, until people catch on that their new Eneloop cells are no better than other lower quality brands.


How many _normal_ people actually know much about Eneloops?

Are Panasonic really going to conspire to try and fool a market by lying about the specs of cells when that market is a fairly small one unusually likely to notice?


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## Poppy (Jun 1, 2014)

Rosoku Chikara said:


> I think Panasonic did indeed want "everything." But, then they would have controlled an enormous percentage of the world's NiMH production capacity. (At least at that time.) So, the entire deal between Sanyo and Panasonic was put at risk, until they figured out a solution to this *anti-trust issue. *
> <SNIP>
> 
> I suspect Fujitsu has slowly grown weary of their "behind-the-scenes" role, and have become increasingly interested in the more lucrative business of selling cells that compete directly with Eneloops.
> ...



Rosoku,
THANKYOU for your informative post.
Personally I am not married to any brand name. A year ago, I didn't know that there was a difference between one brand and another. Around here, up until last month, eneloops were not available locally, but I have been able to get Duracells made in Japan, and have been very happy, well at least when compared to the NiMH batteries of other manufacturers.

Joe Public, has never heard of eneloops. They have heard of energizer, duracell, and rayovac. If each of those brands could contract with FDK suddenly we wouldn't necessarily buy eneloop brand. Do we currently buy Xerox photocopy machines? Mine is a brother 3 in one, it probably has a cannon engine. My point being... if another battery functions as well as a current eneloop, and it is obtainable, I'll buy it.


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## Rosoku Chikara (Jun 1, 2014)

Etsu said:


> ...Sounds like Panasonic is going to leverage the quality Eneloop brand and use it to crank out mediocre batteries from Chinese plants...<snip>



I think it is much too soon to jump to this conclusion. Panasonic might insist on the same (or better) quality as their current supplier. This Chinese plant might even be a new subsidiary of the current supplier. Let's wait and see what those Chinese cells look (perform) like.


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## Rosoku Chikara (Jun 1, 2014)

ACruceSalus said:


> ...When you speak about Duraloops are you referring to Duracell Rechargeable StayCharged cells (packaging labeled ION Core also) as stated in the "Flashlight Wiki" (http://flashlightwiki.com/Eneloop)...<snip>



I was intentionally vague, because I do not own any "Duraloops" and don't know anything about them, except what I have read on this forum.

I think it is highly possible, however, that some "good" Duraloops may come from the FDK Takasaki plant. It is the kind of business the FDK is actively seeking. However, as we have already seen, the FDK price is not very cheap. So, I guess many brands would prefer to seek a OEM supplier in China, even if there is some reduction in quality.


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## gallon (Jun 1, 2014)

*Rosoku Chikara*, thank you for your timely and informative contribution.

I have a set of new Panasonic Eneloop AA's. These were ordered from Panasonic on Amazon. There is a set of photos of these that perhaps you can read for us. Is there anything interesting about the source of these? I cannot read where it should say the country of manufacture.

Pics on this thread, post #45.
http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb...-from-Amazon&p=4385675&highlight=#post4385675

From what I think I am picking up from these discussions is that the new Chinese Eneloops will have the pronounced metallic blue Panasonic name on the battery. Whereas the Japanese Eneloops from the FDK line will still have the pronounced Eneloop name. This is a hypotheses, let's see if it holds true so that we can easily tell the origins.


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## mcnair55 (Jun 2, 2014)

Richwouldnt said:


> To me the question is how long can I get a true Eneloop and be sure what I am getting. After all lights like the Nitecore EAX Hammer are almost totally dependent on Eneloops or other very low internal resistance AA NiMH batteries. The only other viable choice would be Energizer Ultimate Lithium cells and who can afford those to feed a light like the Hammer? More and more 4AA and 8 AA cell high power lights out there that are pretty much designed to be run on Eneloops or equivalent NiMH batteries. And a lot of the competitors NiMH batteries are c*** compared to the Eneloops.



There are other good batteries out there Panasonic Evolta are causing me no problems neither are Duracell.



Etsu said:


> Unfortunately, the corporate practice of maximizing short-term profits at the expense of long-term profits is all too common. Sounds like Panasonic is going to leverage the quality Eneloop brand and use it to crank out mediocre batteries from Chinese plants. This will work for a few years, until people catch on that their new Eneloop cells are no better than other lower quality brands.
> 
> Guess I'll have to start looking for FDK cells, if your theory is true.



You are jumping to conclusions,brand names are priceless just ask the likes of Coca Cola etc.



uk_caver said:


> How many _normal_ people actually know much about Eneloops?
> 
> Are Panasonic really going to conspire to try and fool a market by lying about the specs of cells when that market is a fairly small one unusually likely to notice?



Of course they are not and once the China wage is getting to high these guys will set up in the next low wage economy like Africa for instance.Global village trading and it means nothing to me and you.Buy many famous name German electrical brands and read the label where they are made and not many say Germany.


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## eaglemax (Jun 2, 2014)

Sound right man McNair55,I am work in GB as plenty of jobs because lazy GB workers prefer bottom sit.


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## oKtosiTe (Jun 2, 2014)

välineurheilija said:


>


Care to share some of that popcorn?


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## välineurheilija (Jun 2, 2014)

oKtosiTe said:


> Care to share some of that popcorn?



Of course be my guest


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## mikekoz (Jun 2, 2014)

Whether or not the batteries are the same, better, or worse quality remains to be seen. This will be up to Panasonics quality control and the working conditions at the plant they will be manufactured at. Eneloops are not the only good NIMH brand on the market. I have been using Eveready Recharge, Kodaks, Rayovacs, and Powerex cells and they have been working great for me. Some of the Kodak and Rayovac batteries I have are over 7 years old and they are still going strong. Most of my new batteries are the Duraloops and the ion core 2400 MaH cells. I will miss these if they go away. The public for the most part will not notice since most people have never heard of Eneloops. Eneloops are poorly marketed and you can no longer buy them in brick and mortar stores around this area (Raleigh, NC). Only Wolf Camera sold them that I am aware of, and they are out of business here.


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## Etsu (Jun 2, 2014)

Costco sells Eneloops (at least in Canada). And judging by the fact they sell out with a backorder of over a month whenever they put them on sale on-line (like the last time I bought some last year), they're a well-known quality brand by at least some of the public.

Chinese Eneloops may eventually reach the quality we expect from the Japanese ones, but that will be a long time if Panasonic doesn't own the technology to manufacture them the way they are manufactured from the current plant.

I'll wait for the long-term test results. In the meantime, I'll buy Duraloops or look for the FDK brand. Luckily, I still have about 3 dozen unopened Eneloops, which should do me for awhile.


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## mcnair55 (Jun 2, 2014)

Etsu said:


> Costco sells Eneloops (at least in Canada). And judging by the fact they sell out with a backorder of over a month whenever they put them on sale on-line (like the last time I bought some last year), they're a well-known quality brand by at least some of the public.
> 
> Chinese Eneloops may eventually reach the quality we expect from the Japanese ones, but that will be a long time if Panasonic doesn't own the technology to manufacture them the way they are manufactured from the current plant.
> 
> ...




Please can you qualify your source of information that Chinese Eneloop will not be up to the quality of the Japenese versions as this intrigues me for a number of reasons.


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## Etsu (Jun 2, 2014)

mcnair55 said:


> Please can you qualify your source of information that Chinese Eneloop will not be up to the quality of the Japenese versions as this intrigues me for a number of reasons.



It's pretty obvious, if you understand even the basics of how manufacturing works. But if you think it's so easy to replicate a manufacturing process you don't even own, with new employees who haven't done it before, why don't you make some Eneloops from scratch and let us all know how they turn out? Looking forward to it...


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## Richwouldnt (Jun 2, 2014)

Panasonic is already the premier, and largest, maker of Lithium Ion batteries in the world and they currently make the highest true capacity 18650 batteries that you can buy. I find it hard to believe that they would intentionally start turning out sub par LSD NiMH batteries under the Eneloop or Panasonic brand names. Be like cutting off a portion of your anatomy because you enjoy the pain. I also suspect that they have the battery engineering expertise to reverse engineer the Eneloop technology if they want to.


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## gallon (Jun 2, 2014)

Richwouldnt said:


> Panasonic is already the premier, and largest, maker of Lithium Ion batteries in the world and they currently make the highest true capacity 18650 batteries that you can buy. I find it hard to believe that they would intentionally start turning out sub par LSD NiMH batteries under the Eneloop or Panasonic brand names. Be like cutting off a portion of your anatomy because you enjoy the pain. I also suspect that they have the battery engineering expertise to reverse engineer the Eneloop technology if they want to.



Nope. Patents. FDK owns the only LSD factory in Japan. Every one was buying their LSD's from this factory.


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## Power Me Up (Jun 2, 2014)

Thanks for posting all of that info Rosoku!


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## mcnair55 (Jun 3, 2014)

Etsu said:


> It's pretty obvious, if you understand even the basics of how manufacturing works. But if you think it's so easy to replicate a manufacturing process you don't even own, with new employees who haven't done it before, why don't you make some Eneloops from scratch and let us all know how they turn out? Looking forward to it...



Just as I thought you are presuming. I very much understand the manufacturing basics but it is very evident many here do not understand the complex nature of awarding huge contracts and the financial penalties involved. All I am constantly reading is China made means not as good.


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## Poppy (Jun 3, 2014)

Richwouldnt said:


> Panasonic is already the premier, and largest, maker of Lithium Ion batteries in the world and they currently make the highest true capacity 18650 batteries that you can buy. I find it hard to believe that they would intentionally start turning out sub par LSD NiMH batteries under the Eneloop or Panasonic brand names. Be like cutting off a portion of your anatomy because you enjoy the pain. I also suspect that they have the battery engineering expertise to reverse engineer the Eneloop technology if they want to.



Nicely put 

@gallon Regarding patents, they don't last forever, (I think 14 years) and often protect only a portion of the manufacturing process, and sometimes slight changes can get around the patent. These patents may already be nine years old. From wikipedia- "LSD NiMH batteries were introduced in November 2005 by Sanyo,[27]​ marketing them under the brand "eneloop"." 

Recently we have seen Duracell come out with idk three different batteries in the last year or two. Iron core... three year... five year, etc. Perhaps Panasonic is coming out with a newer... better eneloop.

I have a friend, he is an engineer, inventor, manufacturer. He eventually sold out to a larger company who hired him as a consultant with plans to increase volume of production by moving production to China. His comment was that it was a pleasure to work with the Chinese because they "will listen. They WANT to learn!" Other companies, in other countries he dealt with were arrogant, and all ready "know it all."


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## Etsu (Jun 3, 2014)

Maybe in a few years the new Eneloops will be just as good as the old Eneloops. In the meantime, I won't be wasting my money on batteries being manufactured by a plant in the learning phase.


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## Poppy (Jun 3, 2014)

Etsu said:


> Maybe in a few years the new Eneloops will be just as good as the old Eneloops. In the meantime, I won't be wasting my money on batteries being manufactured by a plant in the learning phase.



And put another way....
maybe the new Eneloops will be better than the old Eneloops, and I'll start buying them when independent tests show that they are better.


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## mcnair55 (Jun 3, 2014)

Poppy said:


> Nicely put
> 
> @gallon Regarding patents, they don't last forever, (I think 14 years) and often protect only a portion of the manufacturing process, and sometimes slight changes can get around the patent. These patents may already be nine years old. From wikipedia- "LSD NiMH batteries were introduced in November 2005 by Sanyo,[27]​ marketing them under the brand "eneloop"."
> 
> ...



The very same experience i have found as well,the company i work for have many parts out sourced to various countries around the globe and if they want our business boy they better be on the money with quality because our brand name is priceless.

ps Mr Poppy empty your pm box please.



Etsu said:


> Maybe in a few years the new Eneloops will be just as good as the old Eneloops. In the meantime, I won't be wasting my money on batteries being manufactured by a plant in the learning phase.



I am actually totally shocked in the year 2014 you are actually not going to give the Chinese made Eneloops a go.


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## Etsu (Jun 3, 2014)

mcnair55 said:


> I am actually totally shocked in the year 2014 you are actually not going to give the Chinese made Eneloops a go.



You must be easily shocked.


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## GoVegan (Jun 3, 2014)

Here's a an article from Aug 2012 that also gives the same details (in Japanese) about Panasonic's acquisition of Sanyo and so as to not violate US antitrust laws the eneloop production was sold off to FDK (a Fujitsu subsidiary). It also shows that both Fujitsu's HR-3UTA and eneloop HR-3UTGB are exactly the same, the chargers too.

http://kaden.watch.impress.co.jp/docs/column_review/kdnreview/20120821_554048.html

Actually I seem to remember reading this article around that time.


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## Rosoku Chikara (Jun 4, 2014)

GoVegan said:


> ...It also shows that both Fujitsu's HR-3UTA and eneloop HR-3UTGB are exactly the same, the chargers too...<snip>



Actually, I don't think you will find this statement written in that "article." 

As a matter of fact, the author finds some small differences in electrical properties and concludes in a typically in-explicit Japanese way that each cell type has its own strengths/weaknesses in performance, so the reader to can determine which cell is best for their own application.

While he suggests that while very minor, there *are* subtle differences in performance, he does "prove" from evidence of microscopic press defects, that both cells share the same metal parts, and therefore most likely come off of the same manufacturing line.

For proof of identical performance (extreme similarity) see HKJ's recent review and new battery "comparator." (Hard to imagine curves any more similar, at least never by chance.)

HJK's conclusion: "These cells has exactly same performance as the newest Eneloop batteries, i.e. a very good performance."


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## ACruceSalus (Jun 4, 2014)

ChrisGarrett said:


> Do you have the Ion Core 2400mAh Japanese made cells marketed by Duracell?
> 
> These are thought to be Eneloop XX/Pros.
> 
> ...



Yes, I picked them up from Target a few weeks ago for $11.99 and later found them on line at ToysRUs for $2 less. I had a week to price match but wasn't able to get back before my time ran out. $9.99 for 4 of these would have been real nice.


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## ChrisGarrett (Jun 4, 2014)

ACruceSalus said:


> Yes, I picked them up from Target a few weeks ago for $11.99 and later found them on line at ToysRUs for $2 less. I had a week to price match but wasn't able to get back before my time ran out. $9.99 for 4 of these would have been real nice.



Still, you did pretty well doing 'cash and carry.'

I've got a quad sitting in my 'bug out box' in a Klarus P2A 2xAA light and my JetBeam BA20 2xAA light, replacing regular Gen. 2 Eneloops. My other quad is waiting for a one year 'discharge test.'

Toys R Us has run specials on them, but $10-$12 for higher cap LSD batteries that 'might be' XX/Pros is a pretty good deal if you look at Ebay and compare them to Sanyo labeled XX/Pros.

Chris


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## ACruceSalus (Jun 4, 2014)

Chris,

I agree this was a good deal.

Also I've owned multiple Panasonic cordless phones for about 25 years and trust their brand. I believe that they will continue to produce top quality goods even though manufacturing is moved to another county. 

I see two possible main problems though. The first is that there may be bugs to work out when the factory is initially opened such as communication problems. In fact depending on how they handle communications this may continue indefinitely. Are they having problems in this and other areas? I don't know and unless someone has inside information then it's just speculation. As they say the proof is in the pudding. My other concern is that they don't own or can't use the technology that has been used to make the eneloop brand. But given Panasonics experience and reputation this is probably not a problem. So I'll wait for HKJ's and any other long term tests to see if the quality slips. I suspect that it won't.

I'd also say that to me it really doesn't matter what technology is used as long as the attributes (price, dependability, etc.) is as good or better than the previous ones. Even the Sony owned eneloops have gone through generations that have improved.

If nothing else I find this information interesting but some of it points to risks that could possibly degrade quality in these batteries.


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## ACruceSalus (Jun 4, 2014)

Oops I meant Sanyo eneloops but I can't seem to edit that post.


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## Etsu (Jun 14, 2014)

BTW, for anyone interested, Costco has Eneloops on sale this week. They're listed as the _Sanyo Eneloop 1500_ variety (2nd gen). I'm hoping that these ones are still made in Japan, so I stocked up on another 32 AA's and 24 AAA's. I'll be disappointed if they're made in China, but I take my chances...

IMO, the 3rd and 4th gen don't offer much extra over the 2nd gen, so I'm okay with these. Listed as good in the cold down to -20C, which is usually good enough for my usage (much better than the 1st gen). And I'll never see 1500 cycles, so 1800 or 2100 doesn't interest me much.


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## Etsu (Jun 17, 2014)

Etsu said:


> BTW, for anyone interested, Costco has Eneloops on sale this week. They're listed as the _Sanyo Eneloop 1500_ variety (2nd gen). I'm hoping that these ones are still made in Japan, so I stocked up on another 32 AA's and 24 AAA's. I'll be disappointed if they're made in China, but I take my chances...



Received them today. They are indeed printed with "Made In Japan". 2nd gen HG-3UTGA and HR-4UTGA cells. Marked with a date code indicating they were manufactured in March 2013. So, they're older than I expected (over a year old). I wonder if they're still being made in Japan, and these are old stock from last year? Previously, when ordering Eneloops from Costco, they were always within 6 months of the manufactured date (often less). So maybe this indicates that the 2nd generation cells are no longer being made...?

Another thing, while the model number indicates gen 2 cells, the packaging clearly indicates gen 3 cells. 1800x cycles, 5 years to 70% self discharge, etc. So, are these gen 2 or gen 3?

Back of the battery drawer they go! I think I've got enough to last me for 20 years! I wonder if they'll still work after 20 years?


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## Antares (Jun 18, 2014)

Etsu said:


> BTW, for anyone interested, Costco has Eneloops on sale this week.



Is that via the website or only in stores? I keep seeing stuff talking about Costco having them, which would be great because I need some and have a Costco cash card I need to spend down, but I keep checking their website and haven't seen them yet, including right now.


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## Etsu (Jun 18, 2014)

They are in the .ca version of their website, apparently not the .com. Looks like they're sold out of the AA, but still have the AAA. I think these are gen 3 (1800x), even though they list them as gen 2 (1500x).


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## Antares (Jun 19, 2014)

Etsu said:


> They are in the .ca version of their website, apparently not the .com. Looks like they're sold out of the AA, but still have the AAA. I think these are gen 3 (1800x), even though they list them as gen 2 (1500x).



Oh, ok, thanks. I wish US Costco would have them on sale, or at least _for_ sale. I haven't checked in-store though.


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## TinderBox (UK) (Jun 20, 2014)

Eneloops come from "Battery Hens" sorry for the joke  , I buy mine from Amazon as i dont find any real shops sell them.

John.


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## Hooked on Fenix (Jun 20, 2014)

TinderBox (UK) said:


> Eneloops come from "Battery Hens" sorry for the joke  , I buy mine from Amazon as i dont find any real shops sell them.
> 
> John.



Really? I heard that right around Easter, the Energizer Bunny lays a batch of Eneloop batteries. He keeps going, and going, and going. Each year they linger/last a little longer. But if you don't get them from Panasonic, they don't come out white. Now just don't ask me where babies come from.


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## mcnair55 (Jun 20, 2014)

Hooked on Fenix said:


> Really? I heard that right around Easter, the Energizer Bunny lays a batch of Eneloop batteries. He keeps going, and going, and going. Each year they linger/last a little longer. But if you don't get them from Panasonic, they don't come out white. Now just don't ask me where babies come from.



I thought it was the Duracell bunny that laid Eneloops.


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## WalkIntoTheLight (Jun 20, 2014)

mcnair55 said:


> I thought it was the Duracell bunny that laid Eneloops.



Yes, those are the Duraloops with the brown top.


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## TinderBox (UK) (Jun 20, 2014)

Yeah, Duraloops with the white top , also i did not know that bunny`s/rabbits laid anything, now battery hens seemed more logical to me 

John.



mcnair55 said:


> I thought it was the Duracell bunny that laid Eneloops.


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## RoGuE_StreaK (Jun 25, 2014)

TinderBox (UK) said:


> i did not know that bunny`s/rabbits laid anything





Hooked on Fenix said:


> Now just don't ask me where babies come from.


Bunnies getting laid is where baby bunnies come from


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## melfio (Aug 18, 2015)

This is off topic, but since I'm not allowed to post personal messages yet I hope it works..

Hello Rosoku Chikara. You seem to be well-versed in the battery market, at least the Japanese one. Do you have any idea if there exists a good USB-charged battery out there? I mean one that attaches directly (or with a small extension cord) to the USB output of a computer or USB charger. Without the need for a separate charger.

The ones I've found (on the western side of the internet) have been subpar, not living up to the stated specifications, according to reviews and my personal experience....


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## Rick NJ (Aug 19, 2015)

All these hunt about "Made in Japan" Eneloops... What if they are made in Japan, but by another Panasonic plant other than FDK?

As said earlier in this post, the FDK technology barrier are both patent and process; so legally, no one can make batteries with the FDK-technology whether it is "Made in Japan" or not.

So, for one to find real FDK technology Eneloops, it is not just where it was made but also when.

Sooner or later, all these old stocks are going to be gone. Panasonic is going to have to either come up with a comparable or better technology, or the "Top Dog of NiMH LSD battery" seat will be vacated.


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## ChrisGarrett (Aug 19, 2015)

Rick NJ said:


> All these hunt about "Made in Japan" Eneloops... What if they are made in Japan, but by another Panasonic plant other than FDK?
> 
> As said earlier in this post, the FDK technology barrier are both patent and process; so legally, no one can make batteries with the FDK-technology whether it is "Made in Japan" or not.
> 
> ...



Fujitsu actually owns the plant and technology, Panasonic owns the brand name 'Eneloop.' Unless Fujitsu has opened up other plants in other countries, we're confident that 'made in Japan' LSD batteries are made at the FDK plant. 

Now, Panasonic can buy batteries from other makers, say a Chinese maker and place their name on it and a 'made in China, or X, Y Z country' tag, which has happened in/with the Oceania/Asian 'Eneloop' markets.

The question then becomes whether that Chinese plant making batteries for Panasonic in China is using the same technology as Fujitsu uses, or whether that plant is actually run by Fujitsu?

Chris


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## Benediction (Dec 24, 2016)

I found this PDF legal document from the US Federal Trade Commission. It appears to be the document related, among other things, to Panasonic being required to sell the FDK factory on acquisition of Sanyo.

I discovered it by googling "sanyo fujitsu takasaki sale"


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## TinderBox (UK) (Dec 24, 2016)

I only buy Fujitsu branded Eneloops as they have Made in Japan in big letters on the packaging and are cheaper, If i ordered Amazon Eneloops i would not know if i was getting Made in Japan or Made in China till i received them, and Chinese Eneloops are not as good as the ones made in Japan.

John.


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## ChrisGarrett (Dec 24, 2016)

Benediction said:


> I found this PDF legal document from the US Federal Trade Commission. It appears to be the document related, among other things, to Panasonic being required to sell the FDK factory on acquisition of Sanyo.
> 
> I discovered it by googling "sanyo fujitsu takasaki sale"



That's old news.

Panasonic could keep the trade name ENELOOP, or keep the factory, patents and technology. They chose the former.

There's some speculation that Toshiba actually developed the LSD type technology, before selling out to Sanyo.

Either way, Fujitsu owns the FDK plant at Takasaki and all the elves.

Chris


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## TinderBox (UK) (Dec 24, 2016)

My first LSD battery were Uniross HYBRIO my first Eneloop have Japanese writing on them and are still working great.

John.


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## lumen aeternum (Dec 31, 2016)

what's the latest rumor on the saga of eneloop "generations" and brandname variants that are thought to be the same only rebranded?


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## bmstrong (Dec 31, 2016)

Fascinating thread.


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## ChrisGarrett (Dec 31, 2016)

lumen aeternum said:


> what's the latest rumor on the saga of eneloop "generations" and brandname variants that are thought to be the same only rebranded?



Gen. 4 and Gen. 5, both 2100 cycles have somewhat morphed and it's more a question of when they were produced vs. any bona fide improvement.

It seems that around June 2016, they went to 70% remaining after 10 years, on the packaging. Eneloops seem to be produced on production cycles, so you're getting batches of them, at least here in the states. June 2016 had a batch of 5ths and then I think August.

As some of us here have surmised, it's not really that the batteries are getting better, it's that they've had more time in existence, for the manufacturer to extrapolate testing out farther and farther.

It's similar to the LifeStraw water purification unit, or Mountain House freeze dried food. Those items are fairly new and the initial lifespans were based on estimates, but as time passes, they realize that those products actually can sit/work for greater periods of time.

That's how I see it, anyhow. No doubt, there's been some tweaking between the first Eneloop iteration and where we are at the end of 2016.

Chris


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## TinderBox (UK) (Dec 31, 2016)

I have ordered a new Maha C9000 i should have it some time next week, As i have said i have been buying the Fujitsu branded versions of Eneloop as they are 1/4 to 1/3 cheaper, and you know you are getting made in Japan cells.

I have my first Fujitsu 950mah min 900mah AAA cells, these are the first 500 cycles Pro Eneloops that i have bought, But the extra 30% runtime in my EDC AAA flashlight will be handy, and apart from the break-in using the C9000 i am just going to top up the cells and try to avoid deep discharges if possible.

John.


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## ChrisGarrett (Dec 31, 2016)

Congrats John, on the new Maha. While it's a dated design, I would definitely buy myself another one and wish I had gotten a second over my LC BC-700 at the time.

My last two battery purchases have been the Fujitsu power bank with 4 AA Hi Caps and a sealed 8 pack of Gen. 4s, which are still sealed.

I need to break them in, but I still have a 2012 5th Anniversary GLITTER pack of Eneloop Gen. 2s to break in!

Keep us posted on the Maha and hopefully you have no issues.

Happy New Year from Miami!

Chris


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