# Questions regarding HAIII and colors. Calling all metal finish experts!



## LLCoolBeans (Mar 12, 2009)

As I understand it HAIII is very limited in terms of the colors it can be produced in. I've been told that any HAIII color must be darker than the natural dark gray color. Is this correct?

Some manufacturer's appear to be claiming to offer HAIII finishes in colors like silver, orange and tan. Is this even possible? Or are they claiming something that is not true. Or what?

Looking for answers from members who have *real *knowledge and or experience with these sorts of metal finishes.

Also, this thread is for discussion of the anodizing process and what is and is not possible with such a finish. *This thread is NOT a place to discuss specific manufacturers and whether or not they are doing something dishonest. *Please do not mention any manufacturers by name and please try to stay on topic. Thanks.


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## rmteo (Mar 12, 2009)

I have worked with a smaller local shop that does HA in colors. If I remember correctly, they were able to do it in about 8-10 common colors (green, red, blue, purple, black, etc.) including natural which is like pewter.

However, another very large shop that does all kinds of metal plating/finishing only did HA in natural. I guess it depends on the shop. If you need more info, feel free to PM me.


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## LLCoolBeans (Mar 12, 2009)

rmteo said:


> I have worked with a smaller local shop that does HA in colors. If I remember correctly, they were able to do it in about 8-10 common colors (green, red, blue, purple, black, etc.) including natural which is like pewter.



So, these colors were normal bright colors like you might see on a type II finish, or these colors were dark, like darker than natural hardcoat?


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## rmteo (Mar 12, 2009)

The samples I was shown appeared very similar to ones with normal anodizing. I was hard pressed to tell the difference and I asked them to confirm that it was actually HA and they did so.


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## LLCoolBeans (Mar 12, 2009)

Well, like my gramma used to say: "You learn something new every day."

I did not realize this was possible. Thanks for your help. 

Edit: Another question...

What was the cost of the colored finishes in comparison to natural or black?


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## rmteo (Mar 12, 2009)

The cost was the same for natural as for the colors. There was a cost difference between regular and HA - about 15-20% more for HA. This shop worked on this basis:

a. Setup charge per job - typically $80-$100.
b. Price per piece. For small items it would be 0.30 to $1.00 (1in. to 4in. long) each with a minimum quantity of 100pcs.
c. Standard delivery is 14 days. However, I would usually get the items back in 6-10 days.


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## LLCoolBeans (Mar 12, 2009)

Thanks rmteo. You have been very helpful.


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## kromeke (Mar 12, 2009)

I'll throw in my limited knowledge.

The sealing method can also dye the anodize. I had parts anodized with a dichromate seal. This left a dark olive finish. No dyes were specified and the dichromate seal was specified by the customer. 

Nickel acetate is another sealing chemical used. I'm not sure if it dyes the anodize. 

I'm specifically referring to the hard anodize process here.


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## Norm (Mar 12, 2009)

Have a look at Fivemega's sales threads he often sell Mags in HA colours.


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## LLCoolBeans (Mar 12, 2009)

Norm said:


> Have a look at Fivemega's sales threads he often sell Mags in HA colours.



Yea, at this point it's looking like I was completely misinformed. Well, that's not too surprising.


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## PEU (Mar 12, 2009)

ha3 natural (no dyes) color depends on the aluminium alloy, current and time submerged in the cooled acid bath, you can get from gray to olive and all of them are ha3. 
Here at CPF ppl tend to measure HA3 by its color, not the best method IMHO, the only way is to measure the anodized layer thickness using a sample flat piece annodized using the same base alloy at the same time of the piece you want the thickness measured.
Its not simple to measure thickness in a round piece, thats why I mentioned an flat piece.

Reading the milspec will give you a better understanding, here hosted at my site: http://peu.net/mods/Mil-A-8625f.pdf

Regarding colors, the previous explanation should give you and idea about the colors resulting after dying a ha3 processed aluminium, all colors aren't bright, take a bright red and turn the brightness off and you will have an idea of the color hue. 
Anno shops can give an opaque color a satin finish or mate finish. I know, its confusing, but I dont have anno color samples here at home...


Pablo


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## PhotonFanatic (Mar 12, 2009)

HAIII colors:


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## cmacclel (Mar 13, 2009)

Well what people are stating here is the opposite of my anodizer has told me who has 

been in the business for 30+ years. Type II anodize can be colored with any color as in natural form look like this






And if Natural Type III looks like this







The only other real type III color could be black. I have reworked and machined many of FiveMega's HAIII colored hosts and none of them where even remotely close to as hard the thick coating that surefire has or even the lights I have had done.

Mac


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## LLCoolBeans (Mar 13, 2009)

cmacclel said:


> The only other real type III color could be black. I have reworked and machined many of FiveMega's HAIII colored hosts and none of them where even remotely close to as hard the thick coating that surefire has or even the lights I have had done.



This statement is more in line with how I understood it.


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## cmacclel (Mar 13, 2009)

My take on type III is the thicker the anodizing the darker the color, so I guess you could put a super thin coating and still dye it some of the lighter colors.

Mac


Here it states .001 to .004 and it can be dyed black.

http://www.chemprocessing.com/TechSheets/Type III Anodizing Tech Sheet.htm


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## LLCoolBeans (Mar 13, 2009)

cmacclel said:


> My take on type III is the thicker the anodizing the darker the color, so I guess you could put a super thin coating and still dye it some of the lighter colors.
> 
> Mac
> 
> ...



Ah-Ha! So that's the dope. The colored stuff is not as thick as the real deal.


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## will (Mar 13, 2009)

Part of the reason that HA III is harder is the fact the the pore size is much larger, resulting in a thicker coating. I read that Black and Natural are the only colors that can support the larger grain.


from an internet site dealing with home anodizing..

... "Type III (hard coat) anodizing is done at much colder temperatures and at higher current densities and can reach thicknesses of .002". Type III anodized surfaces can typically only be dyed black or dark green due to the denser pore size. "


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## Anglepoise (Mar 13, 2009)

It would be nice to get this sorted out once and for all.
I was told by the only Anodizer in my town that Mil Spec
Type III is natural or black, and any of the 'bright colors' one sees around are NOT hard Type III.

I have no idea if this is correct. Probably not, but it seems every one has a different take on the subject.


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## LLCoolBeans (Mar 13, 2009)

Anglepoise said:


> It would be nice to get this sorted out once and for all.
> I was told by the only Anodizer in my town that Mil Spec
> Type III is natural or black, and any of the 'bright colors' one sees around are NOT hard Type III.
> 
> I have no idea if this is correct. Probably not, but it seems every one has a different take on the subject.



Maybe the colored finishes are technically type III, but not Mil-Spec type III.


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## garilla (Mar 20, 2009)

The cell size of HAIII is large but the pore size is much smaller than the other types. Therefore only dye that can "fit" into that size pore can color it. You pay more for black dyes usually because they are a finer grain and do better at filling small pores. The brighter colors don't usually take as they are bigger grains in the dye. Go here to see some really cool pics and good reading
http://electrochem.cwru.edu/ed/encycl/art-a02-anodizing.htm


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## PEU (Mar 20, 2009)

cmacclel said:


> Well what people are stating here is the opposite of my anodizer has told me who has been in the business for 30+ years. Type II anodize can be colored with any color as in natural form look like this



Type II can be dyed with any color with pretty good color rendering, but we are talking HA Type III here 

Type II anno short explanation is growing an anno layer think enough to allow dyes to be applied. Layer thickness is very small (less than 1:20) compared to Type III



cmacclel said:


> The only other real type III color could be black. I have reworked and machined many of FiveMega's HAIII colored hosts and none of them where even remotely close to as hard the thick coating that surefire has or even the lights I have had done.
> Mac



This goes against (or limiting the extent) of the very definition in the milspec (Mil-A-8625f):



Mil-A-8625f.pdf said:


> 3.4.3 Type III coatings. Type III coatings shall be the result of treating aluminum and aluminum alloys electrolytically to produce a uniform anodic coating on the metal surface. Type III coatings shall be prepared by any process operation to produce a heavy dense coating of specified thickness on aluminum alloys (see 3.7.2.1). Unless otherwise specified in the contract, purchase order or applicable drawing, Type III coatings shall not be applied to aluminum alloys with a nominal copper content in excess of 5 percent or a nominal silicon content in excess of 8.0 percent. Alloys with a nominal silicon content higher than 8.0 percent may be anodized subject to approval of the procuring activity. Heat treatable alloys shall be in a temper obtained by heat treatment, such as -T4, -T6 or T73, prior to anodizing.
> 
> 3.5 Class 1. When class 1 is specified in the contract or purchase order,
> (see 6.2), the anodic coating shall not be dyed or pigmented. Any natural coloration resulting from anodic treatment with the various alloy compositions
> ...


(full text link in a previous post of mine)

So to make things clear again, when we CPFers speak of HA3 we mean:

*Hard Anodize Type 3 (HA3 for short) * can be:

Class1 (HA3 Natural = no dye)
Class2 (HA3 colored = dyed)

Dyed means any color, not just black.

But, again, keep in mind that the dyeing process goes AFTER the HA3 process, or to put it in another words, all HA3Class2 were first HA3Class1, thats why HA3 colors are opaque, because instead of shinny alu below the anno layer you have the HA3nat layer... my english isn't good enough to make it clearer 

Also, the Type II anodizing process is different than Type III, mostly because TypeIII needs to be done in an stirred/agitated bath at near 0C degrees to protect the pieces from burning. 
Here is an old photo of mine where you can see what happens to a part when its burnt by the ha3 process:








Pablo


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