# Why do companies still manufacture incandescent flashlights?



## cpfyyz (Jan 14, 2015)

With the seemingly exponential growth in the use of LEDs, why are there still manufacturers that use incandescent bulbs in their flashlights?
I would have thought that any cheap LED bulb would outperform with more lumens and less power drain than a conventional incan bulb? :shrug:


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## mcnair55 (Jan 14, 2015)

I have no idea but currently with my work I am selling a Li-On powered combi drill with twin 18v batteries on a January offer and it also comes with a free torch that uses one of the batteries and that is a bulb type rather than Led.


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## fivemega (Jan 14, 2015)

cpfyyz said:


> why are there still manufacturers that use incandescent bulbs in their flashlights?


*Do they sell?
If they do and making money, I don't see any reason not to make.*


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## archimedes (Jan 14, 2015)

I still use incandescent flashlights ... :thinking:

:shrug:


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## idleprocess (Jan 14, 2015)

Because there's still a market.

There's also the issue of sunk costs in tooling and production equipment. It's the same reason why old motels exist well off beaten track on isolated secondary highways rendered obsolete by newer highways - so long as a trickle of paying guests still show up, the place doesn't catch fire/collapse, _you might as well wring it for that last bit of profit_.

Lastly, there's the hazier issue of design, production expertise, supplier relationships, and more rapid design cycles. Making LED flashlights is an appreciably different animal than incandescent. On the design front, you need to approach heat differently, internals are appreciably different, and will need some electrical engineering expertise for anything LED with a driver _(which is pretty much 98% of viable designs since the market wants to drop 1-2 cells in and go)_. Production for LED will tend to be a little more involved with a larger bill of materials. You'll need a new set of suppliers for LED with a solid foot into electronic components. LED flashlight designs tend to have somewhat short shelf lives, so you will need to be launching new models - or at least _visibly revised models_ - regularly.

But mostly it's about demand - the broader market might have gone to LED, but appreciable niches remain that are interested in the hotwire. These niches are smaller, but likely more profitable since they often don't buy on price alone.


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## smokinbasser (Jan 15, 2015)

There is always the possibility they still have huge stocks of hot wire lights they need to sell to recover their investments made before LEDs became the hot ticket.


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## Timothybil (Jan 15, 2015)

There is also the issue of existing contracts. If I have a contract I entered into five years ago to provide Model 94 incandescent flashlight for ten years, guess what I am making for the next five years. And in five years, if the customer comes and says we want to extend for another five years, I'm going to turn them down? I already have everything I need to make the product without any additional startup expense. Also, since I knew the original contract was for 10 years, I depreciated all my startup expense over that ten years, and now everything is fully depreciated. That allows me to actually reduce the price slightly to the customer, and still make more per unit than I did when the contract started.

Why do you think Surefire still makes and sells the original incandescent G2? Not for fanatics like us. I am sure they still have ongoing contracts to supply the original G2, with the same advantage of having everything fully depreciated and a better profit margin on each one than when they originally started to sell it.


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## scout24 (Jan 18, 2015)

It's very foggy here in Northeast Pennsylvania tonight. I took my dog for a walk about a half hour ago. There is NOTHING like a good incan for this use, cutting through fog. My Surefire E2e with the "low output" MN02 throws like a champ and has a wonderful spill beam at your feet. Tried two high end, high cri lights, one a titanium custom. Both beams washed out and had half the throw of the 25 lumen E2e, with way too much reflected light coming back at me. I need to stock up on bulbs while they are still available.  I smile every time I use these lights, foggy or not.


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## MidnightDistortions (Jan 19, 2015)

The easy answer is that LED's are a bit way too efficient. Incans have less reflective light and is a bit better in certain situations such as fog or just needing a little light to read a map. For the most part is LEDs are good but i prefer to have a couple of incans in case .


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## The Municipality (Jan 20, 2015)

cpfyyz said:


> With the seemingly exponential growth in the use of LEDs, why are there still manufacturers that use incandescent bulbs in their flashlights?



Same reason people watch honey boo boo - there's money to be made.


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## wedlpine (Jan 20, 2015)

The Municipality said:


> Same reason people watch honey boo boo...


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## FroggyTaco (Jan 20, 2015)

The Municipality said:


> Same reason people watch honey boo boo - there's money to be made.



Honey boo boo? Whats that?


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## leon2245 (Jan 20, 2015)

Stop liking what I don't like.


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## cpfyyz (Jan 20, 2015)

All very good points, but I'm not sure if price point is a factor.
I bought some decent quality LED flashlights that cost the same or less than incan flashlights at big box retailers.

Also, it seems that all bicycle lights have made the switch from incan to LED, but why is there such a slow progression with flashlights?


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## idleprocess (Jan 20, 2015)

cpfyyz said:


> All very good points, but I'm not sure if price point is a factor.
> I bought some decent quality LED flashlights that cost the same or less than incan flashlights at big box retailers.
> 
> Also, it seems that all bicycle lights have made the switch from incan to LED, but why is there such a slow progression with flashlights?



Many many ideas for the continued presence of incandescents on the market have been suggested; I suggest you respond to those you don't understand, wish to expand upon, or disagree with rather than asking the question anew. You might also note that with the arrival of the LED there was quite the upending of the market as we understood it 15+ years ago.

EDIT: To clarify my last sentence: just finding an incandescent flashlight on store shelves outside of a specialty retailer is a bit challenging, so I'm genuinely baffled on your assertion of a _slow progression_ for flashlights which are pretty overwhelmingly LED.


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## ampdude (Jan 21, 2015)

cpfyyz said:


> With the seemingly exponential growth in the use of LEDs, why are there still manufacturers that use incandescent bulbs in their flashlights?
> I would have thought that any cheap LED bulb would outperform with more lumens and less power drain than a conventional incan bulb? :shrug:



A newer technology may provide some or one benefit, but that does not necessarily mean it is superior in every way, or more than one way.

And I believe aside from the G2 they still make the 6P-BK or "6P Original" as well, unless something has changed in the past few weeks. They quit making the G2-OD for some stupid reason and kept the black and yellow. I always prefer the OD to the other two. I don't think I've ever even owned the yellow version.


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## RetroTechie (Apr 28, 2015)

cpfyyz said:


> With the seemingly exponential growth in the use of LEDs, why are there still manufacturers that use incandescent bulbs in their flashlights?


Because they also sell batteries? :laughing:



smokinbasser said:


> There is always the possibility they still have huge stocks of hot wire lights they need to sell to recover their investments made before LEDs became the hot ticket.


Then there's that.



idleprocess said:


> Because there's still a market. (..)
> Making LED flashlights is an appreciably different animal than incandescent.


And that.

(and probably a few more reasons)


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## Chicken Drumstick (Apr 28, 2015)

cpfyyz said:


> All very good points, but I'm not sure if price point is a factor.
> I bought some decent quality LED flashlights that cost the same or less than incan flashlights at big box retailers.
> 
> Also, it seems that all bicycle lights have made the switch from incan to LED, but why is there such a slow progression with flashlights?


Suspect there are many reasons. But likely ones I can think of are:

-cost.

Sure LED's are cheaper these days, but all require a driver as a rule or lots of batteries to direct drive. Incan is a simpler setup. So I suspect at the low end, incan could be significantly cheaper. Using simple sums, if an incan torch cost say 50p less cost price than it's LED equivalent and you are still selling the incan ones and maybe make 100,000 - 200,000 units a year.

That's a £50,000 - £100,000 increase in production costs that will eat right into the profit margin.


-contracts.

For large suppliers it probably isn't unheard of that they signed a supply contract for 'x' bulbs a year over 'y' period or something. As this would get them the best price. And bulb seller would be assured revenue for the period. If these contracts haven't expired yet, then they will keep making them until such a time they can move on.


-tooling.

If a maker also produces the bulbs in house, then they have absorbed a large cost. Switching to LED would require outsourcing or large investment. It might just be more lucrative to continue with what they have until it becomes unprofitable.


-market position enhancement.

I'm sure Maglite do this kind of thing outside the USA, where there incan products are generally still widely available and expensive. As the LED is marketed as newer and better along side the incan line, the seller can then charge even more for the LED versions. Basically milking the market until the wider buying public cottons on that it isn't such a good deal.


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## TEEJ (Apr 28, 2015)

Just a note on the fog issue:

I see no advantage to incans in fog....my LED work better, and I have many of both to compare. There are of course poor LED focusing examples, just as there are poorly focused incan examples, but there is nothing inherently superior to an incan's light in fog.

The cd is the primary factor, as far as the light itself. If you have a blue light special led, or an incan with blue light, etc...sure, blue sucks for fog....but, white light, according to tests, is best in fog, with some yellow versions being acceptable. As you can get yellower LED or incan versions, its not the incan vs LED light, its the tint and cd, etc.



So, a particular LED, or incan flashlight, might be better than another, but, that's going to not be apples and apples, and those who feel the LED is better might try a different incan, and those who think incan is better can try a different led for comparison, etc.


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## fivemega (Apr 28, 2015)

*Most of posts here are about comparison of LED and incand.

OP main question is:

[SIZE=+1]Why do companies still manufacture incandescent flashlights?[/SIZE]*


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## recDNA (Apr 28, 2015)

100 CRI. You need accurate color rendering it is the way to go. Why not make them?


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## Str8stroke (Apr 28, 2015)

I wonder if they are actually still manufacturing them. I would have thought they still have a few of them for sale due to them be old stock. As the market and inventory dwindles to zero, I imagine they will sadly disappear for ever.


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## scout24 (Apr 28, 2015)

fivemega said:


> *Most of posts here are about comparison of LED and incand.
> 
> OP main question is:
> 
> [SIZE=+1]Why do companies still manufacture incandescent flashlights?[/SIZE]*



Because we still buy them.  Adding to my above post, I love the simplicity. It's an honest product. Field repairable. If it does not work, the list of reasons why is pretty short. Bulb? Cells? Switch? All easily fixed. An aside: Big Beam still makes sealed beam incans, brand new. Bought a model 166 a few weeks ago after reading a few Par36 threads. Upgraded the bulb, and a got a 6v rechargeable lantern battery. Off to the races! What's old is new again...


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## broadgage (Apr 29, 2015)

I suspect that mass production of incandescent flashlights will soon cease. Maglight and Surefire will probably be among the last to make incandescent flashlights. Some people prefer them, and incandescent is arguably better for some applications, but I expect that they will become a high cost, low volume speciality item quite soon.

A comparison might be motor cars versus horse drawn vehicles, once reliable and affordable motor cars became available then hardly anyone used horses, but you can still buy a horse drawn vehicle today, a low volume high cost item indeed, but still available.


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## broadgage (Apr 29, 2015)

scout24 said:


> ---------------------- An aside: Big Beam still makes sealed beam incans, brand new. Bought a model 166 a few weeks ago after reading a few Par36 threads. Upgraded the bulb, and a got a 6v rechargeable lantern battery. Off to the races! What's old is new again...



Are you certain ? I want one ! the sort that uses a screw terminal 8F battery and a 4.75 volt 0.5 amp sealed beam bulb ?


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## scout24 (Apr 29, 2015)

Go to the big beam website. They're all still there.  Ebay has them as well, but they certainly are available brand new.


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## scout24 (Apr 29, 2015)

Again, can't edit from my Android... I had to call Big Beam during business hours, but they were more than happy to ship me a new 166. Took a credit card over the phone, and shipped promptly.


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## sgt253 (Apr 29, 2015)

Any chance of a beamshot? Very interested in a Big Beam.


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## scout24 (May 14, 2015)

Sgt253- indoor beamshot coming tonight. Finally got to work early enough to take one.


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## sgt253 (May 14, 2015)

Sweet! Most appreciated.


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## SemiMan (May 14, 2015)

The only accurate answers here are the ones that say, essentially, "because people still buy them".

No one contracts retails more than about 12 months out and you can bet no one is signing bulb contracts for extended periods unless they have a defined end-customer stream.

People still buy records too (and turntables) and anyone who still claims a turntable sounds better (or at least more accurate) than 24 bits at 96 or 192KHz is delusional. That said, I have a rather expensive turntable .... and unlike my digital sources, that turntable is a work of art. Sometimes I play records .... it forces you to listen to a whole side and just slow down. I am not under any delusions that it sounds better.


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## Timothybil (May 14, 2015)

One point I don't think anyone has brought up yet is that an incandescent bulb with primary cells of any type is like the Enegizer Bunny - it just keeps going and going and going until the last little drop of energy is gone from the cells, without a protection circuit cutting in or falling out of regulation and just shutting off. There are times when one wants that kind of slow warning that the end is near, and that the abrupt cessation of illumination is 'not a good thing'.


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## Theodore (May 14, 2015)

There are still some valid reasons for having a wider spectrum. take weapon lights for example, flip a IR filter in front of a ican and use your NV equipment, do the same with a LED and you're in the dark. Although they are fixing this with IR LEDs there in still a lot of old equipment around.


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## ampdude (May 16, 2015)

scout24 said:


> Sgt253- indoor beamshot coming tonight. Finally got to work early enough to take one.



That is cool. I was in a Batteries & Bulbs store today and I noticed they had those long old style lantern batteries with the screw terminals. Looking forward to the beamshots. Only lanterns I have are the smaller type that take the 6 volt with F cells that they sometimes substitute with D cells.


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## ampdude (May 16, 2015)

Theodore said:


> There are still some valid reasons for having a wider spectrum. take weapon lights for example, flip a IR filter in front of a ican and use your NV equipment, do the same with a LED and you're in the dark. Although they are fixing this with IR LEDs there in still a lot of old equipment around.



Yes the IR LED's really suck next to an incan with an IR filter. And what else sucks about them is that the IR LED is actually visible to a dark adapted eye.. making it not so tactical. I would always go with the incan with IR filter over the IR LED anyday!


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## LuxLuthor (May 22, 2015)

For the same reason that some people prefer using a fountain pen, stationery, and a postage stamp to communicate vs. text or emails. Tradition and personal preference. I wouldn't even think about going to a wedding if I didn't get a physical invitation in the mail. There is an elegance, rich history, and warm charm that incands have vs. LED's that are technical, cold, and sterile in comparison. Many other legitimate and objective reasons, but this is a dead horse topic in this section.


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## idleprocess (May 22, 2015)

LuxLuthor said:


> Many other legitimate and objective reasons, but this is a dead horse topic in this section.


Indeed. Fundamentally, there is still market demand ... everything else just explains the demand.


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## Darien (Jun 14, 2015)

[h=2]Why do companies still manufacture incandescent flashlights?[/h]
So we can show our grandkids what a flashlight really was! Simplicity. oo:


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## Timothybil (Jun 14, 2015)

Compared to modern LEDs, telling them about incans will give new meaning to our British friends penchance of calling them 'torches'!:candle:


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## bykfixer (Sep 6, 2015)

LuxLuthor said:


> For the same reason that some people prefer using a fountain pen, stationery, and a postage stamp to communicate vs. text or emails. Tradition and personal preference. I wouldn't even think about going to a wedding if I didn't get a physical invitation in the mail. There is an elegance, rich history, and warm charm that incands have vs. LED's that are technical, cold, and sterile in comparison. Many other legitimate and objective reasons, but this is a dead horse topic in this section.



Indeed sir. Indeed.

Until Yamaha figured out to smooth out the sound of digital with multi analog conversion sampling per second the sound was harsh to many vs vinyl. And same with LED flashlights. Many companies have figured out how to reduce the harshness of the LED, so they don't seem annoying when switched on. They went from torches to *flash* lights. And flash gets annoying to many.
I just bought a Sure Fire G2x for it's ability to start on low, and as a bonus it gives off a nice soft incandecent look while on low. 

I suppose being on this earth 5 decades and see-ing the vast changes in technology allows one to discern between the advances and re-discover how the old tech wasn't so bad afterall...hence the resurgance of the record player lately.


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## bykfixer (Sep 6, 2015)

If I need to see what kinda critter that is from some 958', yeah I'll get out the mega lamp. But for tranquil walks along the beach with my dame, or finding that dang shoe under the bed, the ever faithful incan gets it done.

And to the masses, that's what matters. Incandecent flashlights are still preffered by a whole lot of people.


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## SemiMan (Sep 7, 2015)

A lot likely being <1% of the population. The others prefer not having dead batteries after limited use and a dim light for anything but new batteries.

People are not returning to records for sound, purely nostalgia and esthetics.


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## ShineOnYouCrazyDiamond (Sep 7, 2015)

Didn't Surefire, a few years back, say they were going to stop making incan lights completely? They put a halt on all production. Supplies of the G2 and the 6P dwindled. I recall people here on CPF stocking up on them while they could. Stores clearing out the stock. Etc. Then about a half year to year later they had gotten such an outcry for taking back all those models that they started back up production of the G2 and the 6P. A lot of LEO demand I recall because of the simplicity and reliability of these lights.


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## SemiMan (Sep 7, 2015)

Nothing more unreliable for a flashlight than a dead battery. Far more chance of that with an Incan.


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## Lynx_Arc (Sep 7, 2015)

bykfixer said:


> Indeed sir. Indeed.
> 
> Until Yamaha figured out to smooth out the sound of digital with multi analog conversion sampling per second the sound was harsh to many vs vinyl. And same with LED flashlights. Many companies have figured out how to reduce the harshness of the LED, so they don't seem annoying when switched on. They went from torches to *flash* lights. And flash gets annoying to many.
> I just bought a Sure Fire G2x for it's ability to start on low, and as a bonus it gives off a nice soft incandecent look while on low.
> ...



I think there will always be "purists" as far as vinyl records are concerned I've heard some guitar players think that tube type amps are superior in sound also I think for the most part however LEDs and digital music and amplifiers can be made to mimic closely the older technology for those who prefer its "feel" compared to the new but seems newer generations always want to rebel against the previous generation so maybe in 10-20 years we will see a resurgence of incan lighting on the market when LEDs push it out of the mainstream and people get "used" to it.


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## vestureofblood (Sep 7, 2015)

Ya, I know why buy some old car...





When new cars are so much more efficient.


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## bykfixer (Sep 10, 2015)

This morning I found myself between 2 police cars in a 7-11 parking lot. Coincidently we all returned to our vehicles at the same time.

So I asked the one to my left what kinda flashlight does he use...after he said "do what?" he understood I was asking what kinda flashlight he was carrying, not gun or his other weapons...I was not in a friendly town so the police are always on alert there and some construction worker asking to see his flashlight kinda surprised him. 
Anyway he whips out this 4 D size deal and shines it in my eyes and says "streamlight."...Now I was see-ing blue at this point and he says "I'm getting an LED soon" I says "that's not?" while still partially blinded...then the other officer being curious (I guess because johnny law 1 shined his light in my face) and comes to see what's what. He ends up saying "what that piece-a ****?" and shines his incan 6p in my eyes....
That was 8 o'clock this morning and I'm still see-ing blue spots. 
Sure Fire sold a 6P original today...at least I'm pretty sure that's what I bought...see-ing stars at 12 noon I either bought the incan or an LED of it at Amazon.




^^ this one.


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## Monocrom (Sep 10, 2015)

The guy with the 6P likely bought it years ago after another officer recommended it to him. Dude with the Streamlight was likely issued it. Both still great lights.


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## ForrestChump (Sep 10, 2015)

Familiarity. Theres still a sizable chunk of older folk that are comfortable with what they know.

Remember, a lot of kids that drive today don't remember a phone with a cord attached to it.

:duh2:


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## vestureofblood (Sep 10, 2015)

Check it out. Just grabbed my Surefire M6 with Fivemega bi-pin socket, a Welch Allyn bulb and AW soft start. 

Here's a beam shot.. . .Ready...........


Bam!









Well, pretty much the same thing anyway


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## bykfixer (Sep 11, 2015)

Monocrom said:


> The guy with the 6P likely bought it years ago after another officer recommended it to him. Dude with the Streamlight was likely issued it. Both still great lights.





ForrestChump said:


> Familiarity. Theres still a sizable chunk of older folk that are comfortable with what they know.
> 
> Remember, a lot of kids that drive today don't remember a phone with a cord attached to it.
> 
> :duh2:



Agreed. Their department issues the streamlight rechargeable. And yes the 6P was reccomended by a friend. (It's 6:45am next day and still some blue dots.lol)

Yet both of the officers were either direct descents of Doris Day n **** Clark, or were born while Reagan was President.
(Gotta be old to know what all that means)


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## HenryMudd (Oct 18, 2015)

Photography. Specifically the technique of painting a scene with a flashlight. You need the 100 CRI or you can't get the colors right, even in Photoshop.


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## [email protected] (Oct 29, 2015)

For many years (almost 30) I've lived and died by a flashlight. Far more often than not, it's been some incarnation of incandescent I trust, usually a Surefire or a Streamlight/Pelican, that gets clipped to my gear. I have LED, but no matter what, I always have incandescent with me. There's just something about them. And no, I've never had a unworkable failure due to failed bulb or dead cells.

I guess I just pay attention to that stuff. 

That's why.


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## Brasso (Nov 7, 2015)

Incandescent flashlights also have a nice advantage over an led in accident investigation. There are some things that you just can't see with an led.


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## Minimoog (Nov 7, 2015)

I would turn it around and ask why should they stop making them? For going outside in a wet night to move the waste bin ready for collection, find the cat (who is hiding) or finding dropped money/keys etc I can think of nothing better than a well driven incan. I have and use both, and the LED while great, is never as good as the bulb for outdoor situations with wet leaves and grassn (and lurking slugs ready to be trodden on).


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## bykfixer (Nov 7, 2015)

Companies are still making single blade razors, bar soap, laundry powder, black & white tv's, am radios, blank cd's, vinyl records, and zippo lighters because there is still a huge market for those things. 
Same with incandecent flashlights and household bulbs. 

Why? Well the answer to that is likely as individual as fingerprints or snow flakes.


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## Borad (Nov 7, 2015)

Two things I thought I knew weren't mentioned. I thought the bluish LED light shows color more accurately, like sunlight. And I think incan is easier and safer on the eyes. I wouldn't want to walk for very long with an LED spotlight lighting my way.


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## Minimoog (Nov 7, 2015)

Borad said:


> Two things I thought I knew weren't mentioned. I thought the bluish LED light shows color more accurately, like sunlight. And I think incan is easier and safer on the eyes. I wouldn't want to walk for very long with an LED spotlight lighting my way.



With the >5000K LED's, they are very good for built environments - better than incan - but outside, in the rain, incan does better. I have used 4000+ lumen LED and while it gets blindingly bright, it is still hard to see what is a puddle and what is just mud. My commute involves a trek across bleak heathland, surrounded by swampy areas and gullys, so I am very much made aware of what I need to get across without tripping or slipping. At the moment I am using the SureFire A2 - LED for the tarmac, incan for the muddy bits. Best of both worlds!


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## Brasso (Nov 8, 2015)

Borad said:


> Two things I thought I knew weren't mentioned. I thought the bluish LED light shows color more accurately, like sunlight. And I think incan is easier and safer on the eyes. I wouldn't want to walk for very long with an LED spotlight lighting my way.




Why would you think that? Just because the sun is technically @ 5000k tint doesn't mean that an led shows color the same way. Sunlight is full spectrum. Most led's only cover a very short part of that spectrum. This is why most emitters in the 5000k range make things look ghostly, flat, and distort colors.


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## chewy78 (Nov 8, 2015)

led are not all that, sometime they really suck ****


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## SemiMan (Nov 8, 2015)

Brasso said:


> Why would you think that? Just because the sun is technically @ 5000k tint doesn't mean that an led shows color the same way. Sunlight is full spectrum. Most led's only cover a very short part of that spectrum. This is why most emitters in the 5000k range make things look ghostly, flat, and distort colors.



Sort of light how Incans make everything look dirty even if they have rich blue and blue green hues?

Some LEDs have a much wider color gamut than any incan, some are worse. Exceptions do not prove the rule and vice versa.


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## bykfixer (Nov 8, 2015)

chewy78 said:


> led are not all that, sometime they really suck ****



Don't hold back Chewy....tell us how you _really _feel


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## chewy78 (Nov 8, 2015)

i do have some of each and like them equally for different purposes


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## bykfixer (Nov 8, 2015)

^^ this.

I just said earlier flashlights are like screw drivers. 
Differing ones fill differing uses. 

And like the all-in-one screwdriver some can fill several needs. 

To me the LED is like a flat head where close is enough.
The incan is like a phillips where right size gives best results.
At least that's the way my bifocal wearing eyes see it.


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## Brasso (Nov 8, 2015)

SemiMan said:


> Sort of light how Incans make everything look dirty even if they have rich blue and blue green hues?
> 
> Some LEDs have a much wider color gamut than any incan, some are worse. Exceptions do not prove the rule and vice versa.



Matter of perspective. If you're used to looking at everything in a blue tint it will look normal and an incan will look yellow. Use an incan long enough and it will look perfectly white while the led now looks purple.


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## SemiMan (Nov 9, 2015)

Brasso said:


> Matter of perspective. If you're used to looking at everything in a blue tint it will look normal and an incan will look yellow. Use an incan long enough and it will look perfectly white while the led now looks purple.



Actually it's a matter of science. The incan will always look a bit yellow and the cool blue led always blue no matter how long of adaption. Only 4000k looks white perceptively after adaption.

No matter how long the adaption, rich blues and light blues and blue greens are going to look "muddy" under incan, just like deep reds are washed out under low CRI LED.

Color gamut is the range of colors you can resolve. Incan has good gamut but poor towards blue. A 4000-4500K led can be made with a much wider gamut than incan which makes it better general purpose if you carry just one. Similarly there are ones that are really not distinguishable from incan.

Posted by really crappy Tapatalk app that is questionable wrt respect of personal data.


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## Brasso (Nov 9, 2015)

I suppose it depends on the light. I have a Streamlight Incan that is an ugly yellow. I also have a Surefire 9P w/ P91 that is at least 4K in tint. Maybe higher. It's very white.


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## bykfixer (Nov 9, 2015)

Is there a difference in color between gas filled bulbs and the old edison type?

I ask because I turned on an old filament type and it sure didn't look all that warm to me.


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## SemiMan (Nov 9, 2015)

-----


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## chewy78 (Nov 9, 2015)

SemiMan said:


> Posted by really crappy Tapatalk app that is questionable wrt respect of personal data.


 Iphone? lol because theres a candlepower-forums app for android


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## Brasso (Nov 9, 2015)

SemiMan said:


> <=3500K.
> 
> A 4000K unfiltered incan will have an exceedingly short life.



It's running completely within it's specs of 9 volts. (2 Li-ion 18500's at 8.4 volts in an Oveready host with a zero resistance tailcap) 

My most used light is a Quark with a hi cri xpg at 3750k (from a limited run a few years ago) and the P91 is very much noticeably whiter than it. If they could make an led with the same color temp and cri as that P91 all other led's would be obsolete and out of business forever. It is a thing of exquisite beauty.


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## bykfixer (Feb 20, 2016)

Why do companies still manufacture incans? 

Same reason Am radio is still alive...there's still demand. 

Due to pure economics and low cost manufacturing the $2 Dorcy and Energizer are now LED.
Yet folks at Streamlight, Pelican and Maglite still see enough sales to keep producing lights with filament bulbs. 

I work in a 1 horse town where the local Wal Mart is so small it doesn't have bicycles.
Yet in the sporting goods section there are 2 rows for incan mini mags with one row for LED. 
Same for the 2D Mag. 
And whenever I decide to add another incan to the collection there are fewer incans left, while the number of LED lights is still about the same.


Another small town Wal Mart closer to my home has the same scenario. 

For many, regardless of what science says or some statistics on a flat piece of paper...many folks prefer the nice 'fire on a stick' glow of the incan bulb.


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## Hoggy (Feb 21, 2016)

bykfixer said:


> Due to pure economics and low cost manufacturing the $2 Dorcy and Energizer are now LED.
> Yet folks at Streamlight, Pelican and Maglite still see enough sales to keep producing lights with filament bulbs.



Well, at least in regards to the Maglites - most people probably don't know any better.. And they may even be thinking "how do I replace the bulb on an LED? -- I don't see any bulbs in stock for it!?!". :shakehead 

As an aside: Regarding the $2 1-AAA Dorcy LED's -- I still keep a few of them stored away.. For when very long runtimes might be required, like during a power outage.


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## Hoggy (Feb 21, 2016)

chewy78 said:


> led are not all that, sometime they really suck ****



Yeah, like one LED I had that was a yellow ~2700k temperature. Yuck!
Most of the time, incans really suck ****. 



SemiMan said:


> Sort of light how Incans make everything look dirty even if they have rich blue and blue green hues?
> 
> Some LEDs have a much wider color gamut than any incan, some are worse. Exceptions do not prove the rule and vice versa.



That's what I now think of incans after having discovered whiter LED's and daylight CFL's. Incans just look so dingy and dirty to me now, like when I was still smoking - how the walls would look. Of course I could still see a use for mood settings, and in fact Golden Hour is the best time for photography. 




Brasso said:


> Matter of perspective. If you're used to looking at everything in a blue tint it will look normal and an incan will look yellow. Use an incan long enough and it will look perfectly white while the led now looks purple.



And this is the very reason behind white balance settings in cameras - and why I shoot photos in raw, where temperature and tint don't get 'baked in' as with jpegs.. You can set any temperature and tint after the fact in your raw processor of choice, such as Lightroom, without any degradation to the image. Jpegs will suffer if you try altering that after-the-fact because a color gamut (such as sRGB, or AdobeRGB) has already been assigned to the pixels.


However, regarding what SemiMan said::
"The incan will always look a bit yellow and the cool blue led always blue no matter how long of adaption. Only 4000k looks white perceptively after adaption."

I think average incan joe's will not really notice that - it will truly seem 'white' to them. I think the people that will always notice the differences are those that have seen alternate temperature lighting.. Such as those that are into photography. We're more 'trained' to recognize the differences in color temperatures and tints (yes, they _are_ separate terms).


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## bykfixer (Feb 21, 2016)

The sun is an incan. Man has been trying to duplicate it ever since.


Speaking as an average incan joe, we fully realize there's a tint. We just prefer that over blue, pink, green and gray as so called correct led tints largely get further away from a natural look while attempting to get closer. 

Unless they have understood the great parts of analog the true beauty of digital will not be achievable. 

Unless there is a mass of conflicting light tints in a given situation I can dial my camera to get the white balance correct so there's no need to waste time looking at a computer screen to tweak photos one at a time, hoping my monitor is calibrated correctly to my printer. 
Being a fan of Pentax, but Nikon user, to me the Pentax does it better. The Nikon errs on the side of bright without help. I still ocasionally use a Pentax and Canon film camera. But my DSLR's are all Nikon.

Again, that knowledge was obtained by understanding the potential of the analog camera (mainly Pentax) before going digital. Same goes for incan vs LED which can be viewed as the digital of flashlights. 
The LED are getting better....but still have a long way to go in terms of pleasing to the eye to the incan crowd.

I own a bunch of LED lights. I tolerate most and enjoy a few.
I enjoy all of my incan lights. But when I need a light akin to my automobiles head light the LED gets the nod....for now.

Why "for now?" 
Because: CPF


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## Hoggy (Feb 21, 2016)

The first part of what I said was meant in jest..
But I wouldn't refer to anyone posting on CPF as 'average joe' light users. We're all a special _kind_ of crazy bunch.


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## rabbiporkchop (Apr 27, 2016)

mcnair55 said:


> I have no idea but currently with my work I am selling a Li-On powered combi drill with twin 18v batteries on a January offer and it also comes with a free torch that uses one of the batteries and that is a bulb type rather than Led.


What country is the drill manufactured in?


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## bykfixer (Aug 16, 2016)

Why does Kellogs still make Corn Flakes? Or Quaker make oatmeal? 
Why does Timex still make analog watches? Or Longines make analog wall clocks?
Why does Converse still make Chuck Taylors? Or Vans make slip ons?
Why does Zippo still make fluid lighters? Or Coleman make propane lanterns?
Why does Kodak still make film? Or Maxell still make blank cassette tapes? 

Same reason flashlight makers still make incandecent lights...
So that threads like this can be hatched on those archaic chat boards called forums.


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## CoolBreeze135 (Sep 29, 2016)

Honestly, I didn't realize that high end incandescent flashlights were a thing until I started reading this subforum a few days ago. I had assumed that everyone had converted to LED, since they are brighter, more efficient, and have a longer life. 

After reading through this thread, I now realize that incandescent lights still have their place. Thanks for enlightening me. That being said, I'll stick to LED the vast majority of the time for my uses.


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## bykfixer (Sep 29, 2016)

Welcome to the site coolbreeze.

Recently I read a story about a world famous flashlight designer walking outside his office at night to let off some steam and check out a nearby herb garden. Now keep in mind this guy can have any tint of LED he wants, either by buying it or inventing it. 

He reportedly carried his favorite incan light he invented some time ago ago because it was just what the doctor ordered for taking in that tranquil setting after sunset.


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## Minimoog (Oct 6, 2016)

I was out walking last night with my SureFire E2e fitted with Lumens Factory bulb (for rechargeable batteries) and honestly, that was pure illumination goodness. Pure beam, not tinted, soft hotspot and useful corona - I was smiling how such a small torch gives such a wonderful beam. I have LED lights but the quality of the E2e is up there with the best. In fact I liked the beam so much that I extended my walk to just have more of it in my day - and I have never done that with any LED light.


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## bykfixer (Oct 6, 2016)

Minimoog said:


> I was out walking last night with my SureFire E2e fitted with Lumens Factory bulb (for rechargeable batteries) and honestly, that was pure illumination goodness. Pure beam, not tinted, soft hotspot and useful corona - I was smiling how such a small torch gives such a wonderful beam. I have LED lights but the quality of the E2e is up there with the best. In fact I liked the beam so much that I extended my walk to just have more of it in my day - and I have never done that with any LED light.



Great post sir.


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## novice (Oct 8, 2016)

In all honesty, probably none of my flashlights get used as much as they "deserve" (whatever _that_ means - except for my EDC Fenix P2D), but I have several E-series incan lights with rechargeable cells, that are definitely "keepers". My favorite is probably my E2O Outdoorsman, which will take an AW 17670 cell without modification, and is graced with an FM55 red filter, the machined loveliness of which has to be seen to be appreciated. This light sports a Lumens Factory EO-E1R, which is not the brightest light ever, but is bright enough. I've also got a few C/P/Z/G-series with bulbs, including a G3 w/P90. There will always be a place in my heart for these lights. Some of my [email protected] have been converted to led, but not all.


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## dmattaponi (Oct 25, 2016)

I didn't even know they made a decent led flashlight until well into 2009. I still have a bunch of old MAG and several Surefire incandescent around here. Nowadays I find that I like the compromise of neutral colored LED flashlights.


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## Timothybil (Oct 26, 2016)

I bought my first Photon II lights sometime in the mid 90s. They weren't anything to write home about now, but back then it was as much the novelty of the LED as it was the utility of the light. I didn't buy my first real LED light until around 2010, when I got my Lumens Factory Seraph 6.


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