# Surefire G2 for Home Defense



## dave43 (Dec 24, 2006)

I need a flashlight with enough lumens to temporarily blind an intruder so I have time to pop off some headshots. Is the 60 lumens of the G2 enough? Would it make a big difference to upgrade to the P61 and 120 lumens...or do I need even more then that?


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## carrot (Dec 24, 2006)

At night you're just as likely to blind yourself. 

You do not really need 120 lumens, but the additional lumens will create a wider hotspot with which to aim at an intruder's face.


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## highorder (Dec 24, 2006)

you must train to fire your shots to the center of mass. headshots are risky and dangerous.

seek some handgun training, and bring your G2 to practice with!


hope this helps!


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## VWTim (Dec 24, 2006)

highorder said:


> you must train to fire your shots to the center of mass. headshots are risky and dangerous.
> 
> seek some handgun training, and bring your G2 to practice with!
> 
> ...



Yup. FWIW in low light/night fire I've found that for me anything over 100 lumens get too bright, especially indoors.


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## CM (Dec 24, 2006)

Sorry to be blunt but get some firearms training first before talking about head shots. Make sure you're competent and proficient with your choice of weapon. A good firearms defense class should have answered this type of question.


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## fnmag (Dec 24, 2006)

For home defense get a shotgun!


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## redskins38 (Dec 24, 2006)

You might want to look into a c2 or c3. They have a special grip for holding a light with a handgun. Although i can not say if it works or not.


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## pete7226 (Dec 24, 2006)

What you are saying makes no sense. Blinding someone before you shoot him tells me 2 things, 1. you are wasting precious seconds 2. your decision making ability is stuck on deadly slow. If you've already identified him as a deadly force threat, forget about the flashlight, take care of business with the right tool. Flashlights are not defense weapons, unless they are used as impact weapons. After being in several deadly force encounters (CPD), I can tell you that using it to blind or disorient someone isn't always effective and would only be an option to me before a physical confrontation. It buys you a couple of seconds to focus your attack or make a retreat. Thats it. Thinking of it as otherwise WILL get you hurt. Don't bring a knife or flashlight to a gun fight, or a knife fight, or a bat fight. Bring a GUN. Good advice above as well. Use the search function, this has been touched on many times before. Not trying to be harsh, just want to emphasize the ramifications of bad decisions-its your life we're talking about! As far as bulbs, go with the p61.


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## JasonC8301 (Dec 24, 2006)

As mentioned above, head shots are risky business. There is no use for a flashlight if you are not capable of handling firearms first. Crawl, walk, then run. I don't know what experience you have but I even find it difficult to get head shots in a low light environment while on the move and NOT under stress. The main point is, hit center mass. That is the biggest part of the body and you never know if someone is behind the perp. 

Practice makes you almost perfect. I don't know of anyone who can fit the same bullet into the previous bullet hole making two or three shots look like one bullet hole while moving and shooting through a dark training house. Think about the bigger picture; a handgun and a flashlight are only extensions and tools for the operator. In my opinion the flashlight is used to identifiy a threat or non threat. The gun is there to follow through and put down a threat.

If you think you will blind an intruder/threat with a flashlight then give you time to pop off a head shot, you are probably new to shooting (making assumptions but it sure sounds like you just bought a gun and haven't even attended low light training courses.)


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## 65535 (Dec 24, 2006)

fnmag said:


> For home defense get a shotgun!



I think I would let the guy rummage around my house while I preped a colt or some other fine handgun before ligthing of a shotgun in my house.


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## InfidelCastro (Dec 24, 2006)

If you're just interested in the properties of the two lamps, I'll try to avoid all the keyboard warrior advice about getting a gun and going for headshots or using the cover of darkness to sneak up behind them slowly and.... 


I've found that the P61's larger, brighter hotspot makes a good difference in identifying your target and what they have in their hands. The P60 is still a good lamp and has a decent hotspot for close range, but the P61 is prefered by me. It really is better.

Surefire claims the runtime at 20 minutes, that's a low estimate for continueous runtime. If you use the light in few minute bursts like most people would you will get more like a half hour of good light with good batteries like Surefire's.


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## jockohomo (Dec 24, 2006)

'Pop off some headshots...' LOL only in America! I'm just jealous that you're allowed to defend yourself effectively in your own home. Here in the U.K. one is expected to just bend over and take it!






I do agree that brighter might not be better for that task. Just the other night I shone my Streamlight TL2 114 lumen onto my bare feet ( as one does...) Was literally dazzled by the reflected light for 5 secs or so. I am Scottish and have skin so white it might be placed on a colour chart as 'fish belly'.


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## highorder (Dec 24, 2006)

one of the reasons I appreciate being American. if you cross the threshold of my home with bad intentions, you will regret it.


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## vizlor (Dec 24, 2006)

jocko, I think it's allowed to own a gun for defencive purposes at home, as long as you qualify for it.


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## jockohomo (Dec 24, 2006)

No Vizlor, owning a gun for self-defense is an absolute no-no under any circustances here. You are permitted to own guns for sporting pursuits, however, using, say, a shotgun against an intruder will most likely land you in jail, as has happened to several people already. If the Goblin is carrying a shooter, you just might, and I stress might, get away with it. Handguns were comepletey banned here in 1996. Prior to that that, I did a fair bit of shooting and had a 1911, Browning Hi-Power, Glock, S&W .357, Ruger .22 and various others. Happy days, gone for good, replaced guns with knives and now torches or flashlights as the yanks call them.


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## Bisley (Dec 24, 2006)

highorder said:


> you must train to fire your shots to the center of mass. headshots are risky and dangerous.
> 
> seek some handgun training, and bring your G2 to practice with!
> 
> ...



I totally agree! Excellent advice . . .


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## Paul5M (Dec 24, 2006)

dave43 said:


> I need a flashlight with enough lumens to temporarily blind an intruder so I have time to pop off some headshots.


You will be lucky to locate the intruder, let alone shining a light on his face.
You get it all wrong. It should be the other way around. High intensity flashlights are good for surprise attack (home invasion) or get shone on your face while sitting duck in your car by traffic cop.


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## 65535 (Dec 24, 2006)

If you want to blidn people I suggest a helios from polarion-store.com only problem is inside your gonan end up blind. Chances are within 10 yards a face shot with it will cause serious retnal damage.


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## fnmag (Dec 24, 2006)

65535 said:


> I think I would let the guy rummage around my house while I preped a colt or some other fine handgun before ligthing of a shotgun in my house.


Oh really! And what is the armed intruder going to do while you're preping your fine handgun? Oh, and how far is that 230 grain slug going to travel before it decides to stop! A shotgun with birdshot is a devastating weapon that makes it hard to miss, even for the newbies, and the shot will probably not make it out of the house. Maybe you could share some of your personal stories of stopping armed intruders. I always like to learn new things.


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## CM (Dec 24, 2006)

OK, my turn. I own a shotgun. I own several AR15's and several pistols of various calibers. I've taken some *serious* classes on the use of these weapons and I have a little firsthand experience on all of these weapon types and their applications. (No I don't claim to be a commando type, keyboard or otherwise) So now I'm going to ask:

Has anyone actually looked at the size of the pattern a shotgun produces at typical indoor ranges (say 7-10 yards)? This myth about "just point it in the general direction of the BG and pull the trigger and everything will be fine" has to be the most widely perpetrated non-sense on the internet.


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## fnmag (Dec 24, 2006)

Very true that one can easily miss with any weapon! Especially in the heat of the moment where you were likely caught totally unprepared. However, It can be extremely difficult to hit a target with a handgun, especially in the dark! I like my chances of hitting Mr. Badguy with a shotgun much better than with a handgun. And in this day of liability, I again address the issue of just how far that 230 grain or worse yet, 115 grain pill is going to travel before it decides to stop?


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## Bullzeyebill (Dec 24, 2006)

Some people own short barreled shotguns. I do not, so am not willing to stick a 26" barreled shotgun out in front of me against an intruder that could sprint 7 yards in a second plus, or so, wrest the shotgun away from me and stab me, start to finish in about 5 seconds. In the real world against an intruder with a knife, for example, and you are charged from a distance of 7 yards, or most likely 10 feet, you will be cut whether you have a handgun, shotgun, or rifle, and probably before you can get a shot off.

Bill


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## highorder (Dec 24, 2006)

in reference to another post, my shotgun will throw a ragged 4" circle of #4 buck at around 20 feet.

easy to miss if you dont aim.

having said that, my home defense weapon is a 5" 1911. I shoot/train with it 10x more than the shotgun, and its easier to keep locked up yet accessable.

my $.02


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## DogLeg (Dec 24, 2006)

> I ...am not willing to stick a 26" barreled shotgun out in front of me against an intruder that could sprint 7 yards in a second plus, or so, wrest the shotgun away from me and stab me, start to finish in about 5 seconds. In the real world against an intruder with a knife, for example, and you are charged from a distance of 7 yards, or most likely 10 feet, you will be cut whether you have a handgun, shotgun, or rifle, and probably before you can get a shot off.



It takes a brave knife-wielding intruder to want to sprint into the muzzle of a shotgun. On the other hand, if you're willing to wait while an intruder runs toward you, perhaps subconsciously you thought you deserved to be cut [LOL].


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## highorder (Dec 24, 2006)

> It takes a brave knife-wielding intruder to want to sprint into the muzzle of a shotgun.



or a crazy toothless crackhead. we have too many of those around here...


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## SureF1reFan (Dec 24, 2006)

Training option for you.

http://www.guninstructor.com/courses.html
http://www.finaloption.org/advancedcc.htm
http://www.pgpft.com/special.htm
http://www.ftatv.com/fta_surefire_lowlighinstructorcourse.html
http://leerburg.com/2213.htm
http://www.azccw.us/product_1.htm
http://www.gunsite.com/courses/pistol.html

Just to name a few for you. I'm sure one of these is near you...

Save us from reading about you shooting a family member or neighbor by trying to taking head shots. Training could save a life too.


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## Ignoramus (Dec 24, 2006)

I wonder how effective bean/bag shotguns and rubber bullets are for home protection. I imagine that they would at least be easier on you for liability purposes. I would also think that they're somewhat effective seeing as how their used on convicted violent prisoners on a regular basis. Of course those prisoners don't have much of a possiblity of have a pistol to shoot back.


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## SureF1reFan (Dec 24, 2006)

Ignoramus said:


> I wonder how effective bean/bag shotguns and rubber bullets are for home protection. I imagine that they would at least be easier on you for liability purposes. I would also think that they're somewhat effective seeing as how their used on convicted violent prisoners on a regular basis. Of course those prisoners don't have much of a possiblity of have a pistol to shoot back.




Bean bags and rubber bullets can kill. Or worse... suffering like internal bleeding. Then you could get sued (which might happen from the bad guys family anyway " he was an angel, he would never hurt a fly...etc, etc" - "now give me your life savings".)

Bean bags and rubber bullets have a minum safe distance... it's why they are called "less-lethal" ammo. 

If someone breaks into your home and won't go away after you telling him/her/them that they'll have a bad day if they come near you, and still advances on you or your loved ones... as bad as it sounds, shoot to kill. 

Rubber bullets / bean bags have there place, and it's not for home defense. If you cannot shoot someone, use another type of home protection. Big dog, lots of beware of Dog signs...etc. Lots of bad guys will go someplace else who don't have the signs.

But then again I could be completely of my rocker


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## scubasteve1942 (Dec 24, 2006)

Ignoramus said:


> I wonder how effective bean/bag shotguns and rubber bullets are for home protection. I imagine that they would at least be easier on you for liability purposes. I would also think that they're somewhat effective seeing as how their used on convicted violent prisoners on a regular basis. Of course those prisoners don't have much of a possiblity of have a pistol to shoot back.


 
The only issue I see in this is that WHEN the intruder/criminal gets out of jail/prision I dont want him comming back for a little visit (and maby this time a little more prepared).


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## Ignoramus (Dec 24, 2006)

SureF1reFan said:


> Bean bags and rubber bullets can kill. Or worse... suffering like internal bleeding. Then you could get sued (which might happen from the bad guys family anyway " he was an angel, he would never hurt a fly...etc, etc" - "now give me your life savings".)
> 
> Bean bags and rubber bullets have a minum safe distance... it's why they are called "less-lethal" ammo.


 
I saw a guy on Dallas Swat use one effectively within about 5 feet. He shot the suspect who was in a small bathroom.



> If someone breaks into your home and won't go away after you telling him/her/them that they'll have a bad day if they come near you, and still advances on you or your loved ones... as bad as it sounds, shoot to kill.
> 
> Rubber bullets / bean bags have there place, and it's not for home defense. If you cannot shoot someone, use another type of home protection. Big dog, lots of beware of Dog signs...etc. Lots of bad guys will go someplace else who don't have the signs.
> 
> But then again I could be completely of my rocker


 
I don't think you're off your rocker. I have no issues justifying killing someone under the right circumstances, regardless of the legal implications I may have to deal with. I could just as easily use a bat for home defense and use it lethally. I imagine that if I use rubber bullets and the family would be able to sue, they would sue just as easily if I shot and killed the guy. For legal purposes, I don't see how it can be any worse for using rubber bullets. I'm curious about it's actual physical effectiveness .


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## Ignoramus (Dec 24, 2006)

scubasteve1942 said:


> The only issue I see in this is that WHEN the intruder/criminal gets out of jail/prision I dont want him comming back for a little visit (and maby this time a little more prepared).


 
I'm a little confused then Steve, are you suggesting that we always kill the guy? If he stays alive and is caught under any circumstances, I think he'd have the ability to hold the grudge, regardless on if I use rubber bullets or anything else.


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## Paladin (Dec 24, 2006)

CM said:


> OK, my turn. I own a shotgun. I own several AR15's and several pistols of various calibers. I've taken some *serious* classes on the use of these weapons and I have a little firsthand experience on all of these weapon types and their applications. (No I don't claim to be a commando type, keyboard or otherwise) So now I'm going to ask:
> 
> Has anyone actually looked at the size of the pattern a shotgun produces at typical indoor ranges (say 7-10 yards)? This myth about "just point it in the general direction of the BG and pull the trigger and everything will be fine" has to be the most widely perpetrated non-sense on the internet.


 
My 20 inch 870 Remington barrel is choked Improved Cylinder, and puts 9 or 12 pellet 00 Buck into a 12 to 14 inch pattern at 10 yards, the extreme distance in my dwelling(diagonal across the living room). I've shot an 870 since the mid-80's, and can use it competently. It is hard to imagine a bonafide HD situation it can't handle.

For lumination I run a Streamlight TLR-1 80 lumen LED tac light, mounted on a Streamlight 870 bracket that puts the light at 6 oclock, near the front of the handgaurd/pump.

Paladin


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## scubasteve1942 (Dec 24, 2006)

Ignoramus said:


> I'm a little confused then Steve, are you suggesting that we always kill the guy? If he stays alive and is caught under any circumstances, I think he'd have the ability to hold the grudge, regardless on if I use rubber bullets or anything else.


 
Im not suggesting that you do anything. Your going to have to make that decision if/when the time ever comes. But there is a better chance they will die from a bullet rather than a bean bag.


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## 65535 (Dec 24, 2006)

How often do people break it to your guys houses anyways?


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## abvidledUK (Dec 24, 2006)

Make a lot of noise, and call out for your partner to ring the cops, even if you live alone.

Scaring them off is better option.

PIR external lights are a good first defence.


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## AndyTiedye (Dec 24, 2006)

Paladin said:


> My 20 inch 870 Remington barrel is choked Improved Cylinder, and puts 9 or 12 pellet 00 Buck into a 12 to 14 inch pattern at 10 yards, the extreme distance in my dwelling(diagonal across the living room). I've shot an 870 since the mid-80's, and can use it competently. It is hard to imagine a bonafide HD situation it can't handle.



You only get one shot, right? How long does it take to reload?


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## highorder (Dec 24, 2006)

it takes about 1/4 second to "reload" an 870.


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## wmirag (Dec 24, 2006)

May I suggest a 12 gauge pump with #8 shot and a pad activated flashlight forearm?

Just the sound of that sum-bish rackin' would send anyone but a complete lunatic running. If you had to fire, even a leg shot would be a guaranteed man-stopper. And you'd be less likely to penetrate a wall and kill your kids.

Also, most pumps can be made VERY safe by putting a simple padlock through the action; this seems safer than a trigger lock IMHO.

Merry Christmas. And make sure you don't whack Santa tonight!

W.


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## beezaur (Dec 24, 2006)

A G2 is a great light for home defense.

A shotgun is a great gun for home defense, unless it is dark. If it is dark, you either have to shoot at someone in the dark, or identify your target by pointing a weapon-mounted light at them, or juggle the shotgun and a flashlight. None of those are great options.

Suppose your intruder is a common theif. Do you really want to kill a common theif in your living space?

Probably it is a good idea to establish whether the intruder actually is an immediate threat before putting holes in their body and splattering "theif juice" all over your nice clean stuff. It makes for less cleaning and a lot fewer legal hassles.

Scott


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## wmirag (Dec 24, 2006)

CM said:


> Another one of my favorites. BS#2. The sound of a shell being chambered will cause the BG to run in terror, hands flailing in the air...
> 
> 
> Unrelated to the previous but I want to present another PURELY hypothetical scenario. Don't reply with "oh that will never happen", or "no I don't have any loved ones except my fish Freddie who would never be taken hostage...".
> ...



I'd drop the gun and give the BG whatever the hell he wanted. Is there another choice?


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## CM (Dec 24, 2006)

wmirag said:


> ...Just the sound of that sum-bish rackin' would send anyone but a complete lunatic running...



Another one of my favorites. BS#2. The sound of a shell being chambered will cause the BG to run in terror, hands flailing in the air...


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## beezaur (Dec 25, 2006)

wmirag said:


> I'd drop the gun and give the BG whatever the hell he wanted. Is there another choice?



Shoot him. You have prepare to do that beforehand, but if you have, it is the safest option.

Scott


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## highorder (Dec 25, 2006)

> Suppose your intruder is a common theif. Do you really want to kill a common theif in your living space?


 

yes. if you do not belong in my home, your exact motives are of little matter to me. 

perhaps my feelings are swayed by the rock monster that tried to break down my door while I was home the other night. had he succeded in breaking down my door, I would have engaged him. I am not willing to risk my life, or the life of my loved ones to figure out how evil/crazy/drugged up someone is. they chose to victimize the wrong person. for that I am sorry.


Merry Christmas!


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## beezaur (Dec 25, 2006)

highorder said:


> yes. if you do not belong in my home, your exact motives are of little matter to me. . . .



LOL!

Well, I guess there is nothing wrong with that! Just as long as you have thought about it and arrived at a conclusion carefully.

Scott


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## DrifT3R (Dec 25, 2006)

BOOOOOM HEADSHOT!!!!!!

you play cs don't you?


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## carrot (Dec 25, 2006)

DrifT3R said:


> BOOOOOM HEADSHOT!!!!!!
> 
> you play cs don't you?


If only life were like CS. I'd be so fast, because when you run with a knife you're faster... I've got three on me.


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## meat (Dec 25, 2006)

It's amazing how quick and willing people are to shoot intruders. Sure if your life is at stake and they have a gun or their intentions are to hurt you, then by all means protect your life. If someone is there to steal your TV or your property, is your life, criminal or civil law suits really worth it?

As some sane others have suggested, get some training.


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## bones_708 (Dec 25, 2006)

> If someone is there to steal your TV or your property, is your life, criminal or civil law suits really worth it?


 One, my stuff is my stuff and I have the right to try and stop anyone from taking it.
Two, if someone broke into my house with me and my family there why should I assume, or risk, that there is no danger? If there is danger why would I not use reasonable force (thank god I live in Texas instead of NY), allowed by law, to end that danger.
Three I have some training which is why I would take other actions first but by your comment you are basicly asking someone who's house is broken into to put the thiefs health above that of his family.

I will say that the John Wanye BS gets old and no one should be that laid back about killing someone, but me or them or any risk to my family then.......easy call. And *you* don't get to make that call I do. Have I said I'm glad to live in Texas?


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## meat (Dec 25, 2006)

> but by your comment you are basicly asking someone who's house is broken into to put the thiefs health above that of his family.



My comment was also that if someone was meaning you and your family harm, then by all means protect yourself, but you forgot to include that.

It is your property and your choice. I would rather lose some property, than to go through the stress and money of defending myself in court or jail as to why I killed someone that was stealing my TV. Whether I feel it was justified or not, doesn't matter and it is still a bigger hassle than buying a new TV.



> If there is danger why would I not use reasonable force (thank god I live in Texas instead of NY), allowed by law, to end that danger.



I don't think someone stealing your TV is danger, unless they try to throw it at you. Reasonable force is not shooting someone in the head while they take your TV.


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## Valpo Hawkeye (Dec 25, 2006)

I've tried to not chime in on this, but I'm just so darn opinionated...

No matter how "prepared" someone is, I don't imagine it would be easy to get over taking someone's life. Additionally, if you believe in a creator, you have to imagine you'll have some accountability for taking that life. I'll speak in a Christian context as that's what I know. Taking an intruders life may save my life for a time, but I've incurred "bloodguilt". I could lose my everlasting life for that. However, if that intruder takes my life after I passed up the "opportunity" to kill him, I'll be resurrected and he'll have to face whatever judgement awaits him. I'll take my chances with the latter.

If you don't believe in a Creator I understand that you don't believe in that same accountability. You have to justify your choices with yourself and whatever your beliefs are. I just sincerely hope none of you ever have to make that choice.

All of this being said, I couldn't say what I would do if a close member of my family or a close friend were in mortal danger. However, I'm not going to put myself in a position to make a rash, poor decision by having a lethal weapon loaded and ready to go. 

Finally, I don't judge anyone for their beliefs. I don't expect others to be guided or judged based on my opinions. However, if you're a Christian, or claim to be, it's at least something to think about.


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## bones_708 (Dec 25, 2006)

> It is your property and your choice. I would rather lose some property, than to go through the stress and money of defending myself in court or jail as to why I killed someone that was stealing my TV. Whether I feel it was justified or not, doesn't matter and it is still a bigger hassle than buying a new TV.


 
Well in Texas we don't have to wait till the BG proves he is a threat. Someone who has broken into an occupied house has by that action given anyone who is inside more than enough reason to believe there is a real threat to their safety. And yes what someone believes is what justifies using deadly force in many places. Why you think people will have some way of knowing the difference between a "common thief" and someone who would do harm is strange at best. Would I shoot someone for $300, no of course not. Would I shoot someone in my house at night before giving him the possibility of hurting my family, that I could do if necessary.


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## Paladin (Dec 25, 2006)

Once the intruder has been confronted they have the option of A) leaving rapidly B) meekly waiting to be arrested C) trying to overpower the homeowner. 

Which is why a verbal challenge is made while pointing the lock and loaded weapon at their center of mass. One step toward me and THEY have chosen oblivion over peace. _No sleep would be lost_.

*No discussion of the ethics regarding self defense is complete without a reference to "A Nation of Cowards",* the author escapes me at present, but a web search will turn up a copy. He discusses issues relating to the moral decision whether to defend one's own property and person with deadly force quite eloquently.

BACK ON TOPIC:

*The Surefire G2 makes a fine Home Defense tool for identifying persons/animals about ones property at night.*
** 
*Paladin*


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## bfg9000 (Dec 25, 2006)

While you might indeed feel guilty about killing someone afterwards, you can thank people like highorder (who are present in large enough numbers for such self-defense laws to exist in this country) for reducing crime in the first place, which reduces the likelihood you will ever need to use deadly force.

Don't think deterrence works? According to the UN, England's crime rate is highest among all industrialized nations and now even higher than Russia or South Africa. Why? Because criminals can operate with impunity and the law prosecutes those who resist.

A carbine or bullpup shotgun is best for maneuvering in tight hallways and aims naturally. It's probably too difficult to aim a handgun under such stress and the weakness of the bullpup (exposing you when firing around right hand corners as it cannot be fired from the left shoulder) is of little relevance at home when you shouldn't be firing around corners anyway.


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## beezaur (Dec 25, 2006)

Isn't the SureFire G2 an unofficial "must have" item for troops going for deployment in Iraq?

Scott


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## Harry (Dec 25, 2006)

It may be worth bearing in mind that a low light shooting incident in one's home is arguably the most difficult and stressfull sort of experience that a person who is not a sworn LEO can face. You are obligated to adhere to the force escalation continuum, and your decisions and actions executed pursuant to those decisions will be the subject of endless litigational debate; this debate being paid for entirely by your own fiduciary resources or lack thereof.

At first you will be in a mental state of this can not be happening to me denial. Your stomach will feel like it has dropped to your feet. You will develope tunnel vision and focus exclusively on the immediate area of threat. Your fine motor skills needed to successfully manage your small arm of choice will desert you at this most critical moment of need. If you in fact engage the target you will be incredibly fortunate to hit center of mass much less make a head shoot at night while holding a light in one hand and a weapon in the other while your heart is racing at a speed you never thought was possible.

If you were able to stop the "immediate, otherwise unavoidable threat of death or grave bodily harm to yourself or other innocents", do not congratulate yourself just yet bunky. You will now discover first hand that there is in fact a reason that the statue of justice is blindfolded. What seemed at the time to be a straight forward case of defending your family will end up being portrayed as a case of a wannbe Rambo in your local media outlets.

A competent attorney will demand $25,000 upfront to defend you and may warn you that even if you are a totally innocent victim of an attempted homicide you are looking at $50,000 in fees to defend against criminal and civil actions. If there is the slightest possibility that the shooting was at all hinky your cost will easily fly by the $100,000 level. Don't plan on your homeowner's policy to necessarily cover your costs.

There is a great deal of training and solid legally defensible information that is available to you before you commit yourself to a predetermined course of action in a deadly threat situation. It will save you from a lifetime of regret to obtain this training and information and review it on a regular basis.

God willing you will never find your self having to put this knowledge to actual use.

Harry


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## CM (Dec 25, 2006)

Harry said:


> ...God willing you will never find your self having to put this knowledge to actual use.



AMEN to that!


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## Stingray (Dec 25, 2006)

The G2 with P60 is adequate for the job, the P61 is better. 

IMHO, having a tac light (w/laser) mounted on your handgun, and a separate handheld light also, gives you the advantage of having a free hand if necessary (put the handleld in your pocket or waistband) to open doors, flick on light switches, hit panic alarm buttons, call 911 etc, depending on the layout of your house and other occupants, if any. 

Opinions on which firearms are best for defense vary dramatically...ask any group of "experts" in the field, and you'll get many different answers.


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## nzgunnie (Dec 25, 2006)

Since our friendly post starter Dave34 hasn't exactly put much more input into this post, I almost detect the presence of a troll.

Especially since this topic always gets a strong response.


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## fnmag (Dec 25, 2006)

Good point gunnie! I think the only head shot he's ever taken is in the PK/lou.


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## dave43 (Dec 25, 2006)

I wasn't really serious about the headshot. I can barely make one in Counterstrike. I would go for center mass though. I was serious about the question of a G2 being adequate to blind an intruder as it is important to identify an intruder. I would never want to shoot a friend or family member.


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## besafe2 (Dec 27, 2006)

I keep my Surefire 6P with my pistol. Home invadors are the worst of the worst. If some one is kicking your door in in the middle of the night you can be sure it is not the "ordinary thief". They have done this before & have an extensive record & you can be sure they plan to do harm.
While I pray that I will never have to defend my home & family I have made sure that I train & have a mindset to do this. As far as what comes later those bridges will be crossed then but my family & I will survive.


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## Tactical Sponge (Dec 27, 2006)

bfg9000 said:


> Don't think deterrence works? According to the UN, England's crime rate is highest among all industrialized nations and now even higher than Russia or South Africa. Why? Because criminals can operate with impunity and the law prosecutes those who resist.


Although crime in the UK is high, there's no evidence that it is the result of disarming the people. This is according to The Straight Dope.


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## RobbW (Dec 27, 2006)

Maximum_DL said:


> Although crime in the UK is high, there's no evidence that it is the result of disarming the people. This is according to The Straight Dope.


 
I read the link and it doesn't refute Malcom's study at all (which it purports): it offers no new data or even statistical re-interpretation of old data. At best, it presents some anecdotes--some of which are on point, some of which are not. It's almost as though the author began with a firm belief, then assembled some random musings around that belief for support.


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## Tactical Sponge (Dec 27, 2006)

RobbW said:


> I read the link and it doesn't refute Malcom's study at all (which it purports): it offers no new data or even statistical re-interpretation of old data. At best, it presents some anecdotes--some of which are on point, some of which are not. It's almost as though the author began with a firm belief, then assembled some random musings around that belief for support.


The Straight Dope is a newspaper column, so the author cannot possibly provide an extensive rebuttal of Malcolm's views. But the author points out that crime in the UK rose sharply well before the banning of handguns.

However, you may be right about him finding evidence to support a preexisting belief; Cecil Adams has said that he is a liberal in a past column.


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## beezaur (Dec 27, 2006)

Actually, the article highlights the importance of using a good light in home defence. Mr. Robbed-6-times-crazy-guy evidently just started blasting away with a long gun when he was shined with a flashlight.

The morality of killing an intruder aside (please!), the occupant used bad tactics. Evidently the main thing that got him in trouble was that he shot unarmed men.

The problem with using an unlighted shotgun in home defense is this: you are shooting at something you can't see that well. What if is your drunken brother-in-law? What if it is the cat or some wild animal?

I would submit that there are times when you don't want to pull the trigger and splatter greasy burglar-juice all over everything.

I know, I know, it is shocking -- sometimes shooting someone is more trouble than it is worth. 

How about a nice revolver and a G2? Maybe none of that mess would have happened if a good flashlight was in hand.

Scott


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## AndyTiedye (Dec 27, 2006)

beezaur said:


> Shoot him. You have prepare to do that beforehand, but if you have, it is the safest option.
> 
> Scott



I believe the original context included one of your loved-ones being held hostage.
You are armed with a shotgun.

How are you going to shoot him without shooting the hostage?


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## Paladin (Dec 27, 2006)

AndyTiedye said:


> I believe the original context included one of your loved-ones being held hostage. You are armed with a shotgun. How are you going to shoot him without shooting the hostage?


 
12 gauge slug, apply to the forehead.
12 gauge slug, apply to the forehead.
12 gauge slug, apply to the forehead.

Paladin


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## AndyTiedye (Dec 27, 2006)

besafe2 said:


> I keep my Surefire 6P with my pistol. Home invadors are the worst of the worst. If some one is kicking your door in in the middle of the night you can be sure it is not the "ordinary thief". They have done this before & have an extensive record & you can be sure they plan to do harm.



Or it could be a drug raid that targeted the wrong house.
http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/11/27/atlanta.shooting/index.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kathryn_Johnston


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## beezaur (Dec 27, 2006)

AndyTiedye said:


> I believe the original context included one of your loved-ones being held hostage.
> You are armed with a shotgun.
> 
> How are you going to shoot him without shooting the hostage?



Take some self defense training. It is surprising what you can do with a little training and the audacity to put it to use.

But, just for the sake of argument, say you do want to shoot them with shotgun loaded with shot, without advancing in any way. The pattern will have a finite (and predictable) size at various ranges. At close ranges the pattern actually can be quite small, depending on how your gun is set up. So, it is possible to be somewhat selective with shot placement using a shotgun. You just have to practice and be well aware of what the pattern is doing.

You'll notice that I am not an advocate of using a shotgun for home defense. This kind of scenario is one of many where a handgun with a laser aiming device comes out ahead.

The most important thing is having some tactics with which to counter an attack. The best means to learn these is to take some training. But you still have to practice them to be any good.

Scott


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## hburner (Dec 27, 2006)

One of the reasons that I got back into the lights was being broken into, me not at home of course. Everybody has there own thoughts on everything so here is mine, for what is worth of course.

If I were to get awakened in the night with someone breaking in or already in my home, the first thing in hand is the .45ACP that sleeps right above my head. Second is which ever torch that I have placed beside it on that perticular night. Be it my C3 w/P91 and 2 18500s, Superfire bored out w/ 2 18650s and P91, mag85 with med. stipple reflector and 3 D size Li-ions, etc.

I have been trained with firearm training through the NC DOC and came in with a Master shooting badge. I have been trained with them also in self-defense tactics. Myself and freinds from work go to the gym often and I am not exactly a wus. All this said to say this, I may very well get myself shot with my own gun, I may very well get my but kicked in my own house, I may very well have my Mag85 taken away from me and get blinded and then beat by it. But I really just do not think that that will happen, regardless, noises in the night get responded to with a bright light and 280 grains of led. A good bright light is always a bonus in your corner when you do not know what is in the darkness ahead, inside or out. hburner. 2 cents worth.


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## Bisley (Jan 1, 2007)

hburner said:


> 280 grains of led


 Who makes a 280 grain led in .45 caliber?
And does it act like a tracer when you shoot it?
LOL!!


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## choppers (Jan 1, 2007)

Paladin said:


> 12 gauge slug, apply to the forehead.
> 12 gauge slug, apply to the forehead.
> 12 gauge slug, apply to the forehead.
> 
> Paladin


It is amazing how the sound of a 12 gauge will make a intruder think twice!!


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## highorder (Jan 1, 2007)

I think 280 is a typo for 230gr. just a guess.


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## bfg9000 (Jan 1, 2007)

beezaur said:


> You'll notice that I am not an advocate of using a shotgun for home defense. This kind of scenario is one of many where a handgun with a laser aiming device comes out ahead.


I'd take a shotgun over any handgun for home defense any day of the week, because if I have to shoot I want to be sure they stop. I've treated people with multiple gunshot wounds (comes from working at the county hospital...) including one guy with 27 hits that the cops still had to wrestle to the ground (he lived, too). At the ranges we are talking about (less than 15 feet) the pattern is never going to be larger than a few inches even at maximum choke, which means a laser aiming device could be a reasonable addition to a shotgun also. I don't want to have to count on getting a headshot because that's hard enough to do in CS when you aren't under stress.






And even 230gr is pretty heavy for an led. Maybe a .44 one...


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## highorder (Jan 1, 2007)

???

230 grain is one of the most common loads in 45acp.


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## Bryan (Jan 1, 2007)

...


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## beezaur (Jan 2, 2007)

bfg9000 said:


> I'd take a shotgun over any handgun for home defense any day of the week, because if I have to shoot I want to be sure they stop. I've treated people with multiple gunshot wounds (comes from working at the county hospital...) including one guy with 27 hits that the cops still had to wrestle to the ground (he lived, too). . . .



I would guess the person shot 27 times was hit by a volley of 9mms? I cannot imagine that it was .45s or .357s. For people who have never shot a full-power .357 Mag, it is difficult to appreciate what a mouse gun the 9mm is by comparison.

Anyway, not all 12-ga loads are effective stoppers. A 12-ga with birdshot is not so good.

The main reasons I favor a handgun over a shotgun (or long gun of any type) are these:
- handguns can be used easily with flashlights
- handguns fare much better at contact distance

I think a weapon-mounted light is the next best lighting alternative for shotguns, but you still have the contact distance problem and the issue of having to point your loaded gun at everything you want to see.

Scott


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## bfg9000 (Jan 2, 2007)

Actually the issued duty weapon was being switched from 9mm to 40s&w at the time so it was both of those. 40s&w is no weenie round; it is ballistically similar to .357 with similar bullet weight and velocity. If anything it has the advantage from being 1mm larger. Obviously he didn't get hit anywhere too vital but since he was able to fight on even with solid hits in the chest and abdomen it just goes to show that real life is nothing like the movies.

I hear a lot about the .357 being the ultimate man-stopper, mostly because of Marshall & Sanow's "One shot stop" (OSS) statistics which are no more scientific than using insurance payout data to judge what is the safest car. Statistically, an old Volvo 240 wagon is a safer car than a new $86,000 Mercedes S-Class despite having no airbags, pyrotechnic seatbelts, stability control or ABS. Why is this? The people who drive old Volvos tend to be much older and take fewer risks. Similarly, .357 Mag (the OSS champion according to M&S) shooters tend to be much older and more skilled, plus have fewer rounds so _place their shots more carefully_ than spray and pray high-cap 9mm types.

Fackler's ballistic gelatin produces a large "temporary stretch cavity" from even handgun rounds. Some equate this "kinetic energy dump" with "stopping power" but Fackler himself debunked this by pointing out that this shock wave was insufficient to cause trauma to living tissue no matter how impressive it looked. Despite this, many people with no background in physiology believe it somehow causes some kind of "neural shock" so larger is better. All I can say is the real wounds just look like someone stuck them with a large screwdriver, and they clearly did not stop a lot of people. With hunting rounds, the shock wave is clearly powerful enough to tear tissue, but no handgun the typical person can fire is like that.

Don't get me wrong, it is surprisingly easy for people to get killed from any kind of firearm (the .22LR is incredibly, a good OSS round). But realize that even after you have inflicted a mortal wound, _they can still kill you before they finally die_, especially considering you wouldn't have fired your weapon unless you were in immediate, mortal danger. In that light it is best to consider no handgun cartridge to be very "powerful" because placement is so critical (I've seen a LOT of gunshot victims _walk_ in). I consider it a last ditch type of weapon to be carried when concealment is required and used mostly to allow rapid retreat unless you are a LEO.

I rarely see anyone with two shotgun wounds and then never from the same direction. True it's less than ideal in a hand to hand combat situation, but I really hope if you're going to be walking around with a shotgun that you'd also carry a handgun as backup. There is another disadvantage of the shotgun though: virtually none of them are "drop safe" so they can fire if dropped with a round in the chamber.

Speaking on the lighting issue; this is your HOME we are talking about here so there is no reason you cannot just wire up 10,000 watts of light to Clappers and be prepared to light the whole place up. I mean why consider planning to fumble around with a G2 in your own dark house as being prepared?


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## hburner (Jan 2, 2007)

MY mistake, I got my .454 and .45 mixed up,

*32084*.454 Casull300JHP1,6501,813

Thanks for very politely pointing it out.




Bisley said:


> Who makes a 280 grain led in .45 caliber?
> And does it act like a tracer when you shoot it?
> LOL!!


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## beezaur (Jan 2, 2007)

bfg9000 said:


> Actually the issued duty weapon was being switched from 9mm to 40s&w at the time so it was both of those. 40s&w is no weenie round; it is ballistically similar to .357 with similar bullet weight and velocity. If anything it has the advantage from being 1mm larger. . . .



Ok, this is getting into a tangent, but a .40 S&W is not comparable to a .357 Mag.

A .40 S&W is less powerful than a .45 ACP, which is less powerful than a .357 Mag.

Here is a little story of how I discovered the power of the .357 mag firsthand:

My wife and I live in a rural area, and recently discovered that we have a black bear hanging around the house. I carry a .45 Auto, which is a lot of handgun, but this is a bear. I asked around about the best .45 Ammo for defence againsta bear, was pointed to Double Tap ammo -- they have a 230-gr loaded pretty hot.

So I got some, and sure enough, it is pretty snappy. I would say it about doubles the "splatter factor" into my soil backstop. Pretty impressive compared to the regular hardball stuff I shoot.

Then comes my birthday, when my wife gets me a .357 revolver. .35-caliber projectile at about mach 1.5. No big deal, right? Wrong. 6 shots, and pain. One Hogue Monogrip later it is a lot better to shoot, but this is significantly more powerful than the .45s, even the Double Taps.

To be fair to the .40s, a 10mm approaches the .357 mag, but still does not equal it.

If you get a chance to shoot a .357 Mag revolver, do it. It is a real eye-opener. (A word of caution: pass on a snubbie. The recoil is that bad.)

Scott


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## Bryan (Jan 2, 2007)

I would rather carry a 10mm with some hot ammo vs. the .357. The 10mm ammunition you will find locally is watered down and really not any better than .40 S&W. Unfortunately, you will only be able to find potent 10mm loads online unless you have a really good relationship with your local shop and beg them to order some. In the bear scenario, I'd feel more confident with the 10mm than the .357 for the simple fact in having a few extra rounds on tap. 

10mm = .357 Magnum
10mm > .357 SIG; .40 S&W


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## beezaur (Jan 2, 2007)

I was going from my Sierra loading handbook, working from maximum loads. I understand that the reason most 10mm ammo is downloaded these days is because a lot of guns can't handle the hot loads. For example:
http://www.thegunzone.com/glock/glock-kb-faq.html

However, I do concede that the 10mm can be made to equal, and even slightly surpass the .357 Mag, if you are so willing.

Here is Double Tap's 10mm 135-gr:



> Ballistics : 1600fps/ 767 ft./lbs. - Glock 20


http://www.doubletapammo.com/php/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=25&products_id=45

Compare to their .357 Mag 125-gr:



> Velocity: 1600fps / 4" Ruger GP-100
> Muzzle Energy: 710 ft. lbs.


http://www.doubletapammo.com/php/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=27&products_id=48

Back to the .40 comparison, this is maybe the hottest .40 S&W you can get:


> Ballistics : 135gr. @ 1375fps / 567 ft/lbs- Glock 23 (4.0"bbl)


http://www.doubletapammo.com/php/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=26&products_id=107

And, for completeness, here is the .45 ACP I use:


> Ballistics : 1010fps - 521 ft./lbs. - 5" bbl.


Keep in mind that this is a "penetration" round, not an energy dumper. Energy values don't tell you much about bullet performance with this kind of round. An energy round would be their 165-grainer:


> Ballistics : 1325fps - 643 ft./lbs. - 5" 1911


http://www.doubletapammo.com/php/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=34&products_id=156
http://www.doubletapammo.com/php/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=34&products_id=146

For what it is worth.

So, back to the topic of flashlights (kind of), I used the new year's fireworks orgy as an excuse to go out and do some night shooting with my .357: Goodness gracious, great balls of fire!

I was shooting with my SureFire Kroma. I found the flash-bulb effect of that gun to be significant compared to my .45 Auto. I am not sure if I can find another load with reduced muzzle flash, but it was certainly distracting. I would say the Kroma is the least amount of light I wold want (~50 lumens). It worked fine, but I would have liked over 100 lumens. The G2 would have worked well too. It is slightly brighter and has a bit more throw.

Scott


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## Bryan (Jan 2, 2007)

Good info Scott. 

The barrel length will be a factor as well. I'm not sure if I would feel comfortable with the Glock 29 as a bear weapon. I would probably feel more comfortable with the .357 in this case (assuming it's not a snub nose like you mentioned earlier). .357's are a lot of fun though! Much more fun than a 10mm with a standard retail load. Luckily I have never been confronted by a bear and hopefully never will!


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## beezaur (Jan 2, 2007)

Bryan said:


> I'm not sure if I would feel comfortable with the Glock 29 as a bear weapon. I would probably feel more comfortable with the .357 in this case (assuming it's not a snub nose like you mentioned earlier). . . .



The .45 was the most powerful gun I had at the time. I was trying to maximize what I had with the Double Taps. I agree the .357, a 4" Ruger GP100, is better for bear duty, and it has replaced the .45 in that role. It still is not as much gun as I would like (for bear), but I can conceal it, which is one of my criteria.

The guy who pointed me to the Double Tap related his bear encounter. He was camping when a bear stuck its head in his tent one night. The guy smacked the bear with his gun, then emptied all 8 hardball-equivalent lead bullets into the bear. It was a DRT -- Dead Right There, ruled a legal shoot by the authorities.

Not an ammo test a guy would volunteer for, nor the guaranteed outcome, but proves it can be done with a full .45.

Scott


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## bfg9000 (Jan 2, 2007)

beezaur said:


> Ok, this is getting into a tangent, but a .40 S&W is not comparable to a .357 Mag.
> 
> A .40 S&W is less powerful than a .45 ACP, which is less powerful than a .357 Mag.


 Yes, I agree that the hottest .357 is indeed hotter than the hottest .40S&W, but let's look at what a LEO might actually be _issued_:

Speer Gold Dot
.357Mag 158gr. 1235fps 535ft-lbs
.40S&W 155gr. 1200fps 496ft-lbs
.45ACP 185gr. 1050fps 453ft-lbs
9mmL 147gr. 985fps 317ft-lbs

Cor-Bon JHP
.357Mag 125gr. 1400fps 544ft-lbs
.40S&W 135gr. 1325fps 526ft-lbs
.45ACP+P 165gr. 1250fps 573ft-lbs
9mmL+P 125gr. 1250fps 434ft-lbs

Not looking so different now, is it? All of them make wounds that look pretty much the same, and my only argument is that none of them are even close to a shotgun:

Federal 
12ga slug 438gr. 1610fps 2555ft-lbs

The full-tilt 10mm really pushes the limits of case pressure (the .357 has far more case volume) which is hard on equipment but the real reason the low-powered "FBI load" 10mm came about is most agents were uncomfortable firing a .357 equivalent from a pistol that weighed half of what an N-frame revolver weighs. That's a great bear story too but I also wouldn't want to have to count on braining a bear with a handgun either






Just so you know, my very first handgun was a S&W .41 Magnum. I quickly found out there's no ".41 Special" or factory low-powered option as there is with .357 and .44, so it didn't see much use. Yes, I could handload them now, but at the time it was quite a handful and not very pleasant with its wood grips. Plus now it's just a shelf queen...

BTW the .357 is .38 caliber / 9mm


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## beezaur (Jan 2, 2007)

bfg9000 said:


> BTW the .357 is .38 caliber / 9mm



I was rounding (truncating) with the .35 caliber bit. I have this irrational dislike for false precision, which I guess makes me seem like a novice at times. How did "38 caliber" get started anyway? Cap and ball revolvers? They are nowhere near actual .38 caliber.

The .40 S&Wis a great improvement over a 9mm. Probably it is the most efficient handgun caliber with respect to stopping power: enough, but not more.

The bear guy shot it in the chest. He said several of the bullets lodged under its shoulder blades on the far side of the thoracic caivity, if memory serves. So it was a "boiler room" kill, not a brain shot.

Scott


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## chalshus (Jan 2, 2007)

> blind an intruder



Are there lots of dangerous intruders in your neighbourhood? 

The M4 Devestator should do the job properly.


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## bfg9000 (Jan 2, 2007)

Naah, you sure don't sound like any novice. It's just that sometimes people seem to get so worked up over how much better one handgun round is over another that they fail to realize all of them are severely limited by what the average person can handle. So much so that most of them end up performing about the same in real life when using typical factory loads. Similar enough anyway (compared to long guns that is... a .30-06 is 180gr. 2600fps, 2701 ft-lbs) that the practical differences are marginal. I mean they all have the same limitations and shot placement is just as critical with all of them, so why not just shoot whatever you can shoot best?

The human animal is amazingly tough but not nearly as hard to stop as a bear, plus when you're not at home, portability is everything (if it's too big, you won't have it on you when you need it most). At home I'd grab a hotwire Mag, but a G2 will do fine for carry because I'm not about to walk around everywhere with a big ole Mag. Similarly, is a .380 better than nothing? You betcha (but nowadays when you can get .40 in something as tiny as a Kahr, there's seldom reason to resort to such calibers for carry...) and at home you can keep something larger, more powerful, and especially _easier to use_. A .454 Casull or .500S&W would be a terrible self-defense weapon for me because the tradeoff in recovery time (no double-tap there!) isn't worth the extra power _against a person_, but I'd certainly rather have one of those than a .45 if faced _with a bear_! Thing is, I'd much rather have a rifle in that case than any of those too...

As for "maximum" loads: while a private citizen can indeed choose double-throw-down super-duper +P+ "hot" loads, Harry pointed out that a legal defense is already $25k-100k without your lawyer having to answer questions about why you decided regular factory ammo that's good enough for the cops wasn't lethal enough for you. And nothing can help you if you ever use a handload in self-defense.


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## pete7226 (Jan 3, 2007)

Just put all of whatever your carrying in the right place, knockdown power is a myth. I've unloaded 9 rounds of .45 in people along with 21 rounds of 9mm from other p.o.'s and the person still took 2-3 seconds to drop. Thank god he was just carrying a knife and not a gun, im sure he would have gotten several rounds off. They were all center mass hits, but NOT Central Nervous System Hits. That being said, the bigger the round the better the effect. Period. I will never go back to a 9mm after seeing the wound cavitation of my .45 and the damage it did to bone mass on this person that was lacking with the 9mm rounds, this has been documented hundreds of times in Police shootings and experienced first hand by me in the close to 100 shootings Ive seen. If I could carry a bazooka, I would.


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## highorder (Jan 3, 2007)

I'm glad we have some bonafide LEO's here to offer real world anecdotes, instead of the armchair commando lines that people (myself included, on occasion) readily offer.


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## ugrey (Jan 3, 2007)

Gentlemen, In my experience 65 lumens is not a lot of light. 105 lumens are better, and 200 or 500 are much better. In my pocket I usually only carry 60(E2e) or maybe 200(Z3 w/P91) lumens. In an inside coat pocket I often have 225 lumens, a SF 12P (9P+extender+12V LA). I would carry a spotlight if it fit. At home, next to my bed I keep a SF M6 (500 lumens). I want to ID and dominate an Intruder with light so I will not have to shoot. It seems to me some of you need more lumens at home.


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## Bryan (Jan 3, 2007)

ugrey said:


> I want to ID and dominate an Intruder with light so I will not have to shoot.


 
I know Surefire claims their lights will "temporarily blind" a person but in reality that doesn't stop the threat. I wouldn't use my lights to ID a person, I would use them to make sure I don't miss when I pull the trigger. 

Not sure what you mean by dominate an intruder though.


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## bfg9000 (Jan 3, 2007)




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## frasera (Jan 3, 2007)

if the guys also got a gun, i think an obvious bright flashlight beam is going to make shooting you very easy, he can see you coming. he's got eyes aclimated to darkness, and your beam of light rounding the corner tells him exactly where to shoot.

"replaced guns with knives and now torches or flashlights as the yanks call them."
thats too bad, guns are the great equalizer, it gives granny the same power to protect herself as any youngster. you can't say the same about a knife.


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## bones_708 (Jan 3, 2007)

Yeh great, shooting in the dark is much safer?????
:shrug:
Anyway the G2 is a tactical light designed with that in mind.


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## BrighTor (Jan 3, 2007)

hburner said:


> MY mistake, I got my .454 and .45 mixed up,
> 
> *32084*.454 Casull300JHP1,6501,813
> 
> Thanks for very politely pointing it out.



Maybe it's because I'm largely ignorant of this whole field, but I kind of thought he was joking about the "led" typo and the LED being a tracer. But again, I can't really speak for the poster.

Other than that, nothing really to add to the conversation other than I have an x10 wireless lighting control pad on my nightstand so I don't think I'll be "snoop and poop"ing around my house in the dark. I do own firearms, but they're for hunting and target shooting and I hope they're never needed for home defense.


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## ugrey (Jan 3, 2007)

The 10X, 500 lumen rechargeable, is named the Dominator. I am glad my use of the word gave some of you your jollies for the day. :0 
To quote from Surefires 2003 catalog, page 65 "Reports from the street indicate that blasting a would be felon's eyes with the M6 is often enough to end resistance without the need for any further escalation of force." The M6 light blast is an option before you pull the trigger.


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## hburner (Jan 3, 2007)

BrighTor, that would be cool to have an LED for a tracer behind that round, that way you could watch it go in and maybe come out! Just kiddin, hb.


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## Harry (Jan 3, 2007)

bfg9000 said:


> As for "maximum" loads: while a private citizen can indeed choose double-throw-down super-duper +P+ "hot" loads, Harry pointed out that a legal defense is already $25k-100k without your lawyer having to answer questions about why you decided regular factory ammo that's good enough for the cops wasn't lethal enough for you. And nothing can help you if you ever use a handload in self-defense.


 
Read the above referenced quote and commit it to memory.

Should you decide that a handload is the ammunition of choice in a smallarm chosen for threat management, then you did not get your full return on your investment in whatever training you paid for.

If you are involved in an actual shooting using a handload as the ammunition discharged you might as well save yourself a lot of money and just plead guility at the first opportunity that is presented to you.

Any fool can manipulate the firing mechinism of a firearm. The true skill is in knowing when one should not even think about doing so.

Harry


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## highorder (Jan 3, 2007)

> you might as well save yourself a lot of money and just plead guility at the first opportunity that is presented to you.



you were making a great point without the scare tactics. my Constitution emplores me to preserve my rights, not freely waive them.

regardless of the details of your prosecution, you have the right to due process, and a jury of your peers to decide your fate.


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## Ignoramus (Jan 3, 2007)

frasera said:


> if the guys also got a gun, i think an obvious bright flashlight beam is going to make shooting you very easy, he can see you coming. he's got eyes aclimated to darkness, and your beam of light rounding the corner tells him exactly where to shoot.


 
In the middle of the night, your eyes have also adjusted to the darkness. So a light to find your way around your own house may not be as important for yourself. The other guy is the one who isn't familiar with the environment. If you only use the light to put a light on the intruder when you see him, I think you would have a better shot at him then he would at you. It would be easy for you to aim at him, while he'd at least have a more difficult time trying to see with a light in his face.


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## Pax et Lux (Jan 4, 2007)

I too can't see how you would need "tactical" lighting in your own home in the middle of the night. I'd have thought that in a relatively small space and with dark-adapted eyes, pretty much any decent flashlight would do. If you are thinking of a bedside set-up, with you cornered in your room, maybe it's worth thinking about some kind of lantern that can be put down on the floor, leaving both hands free? Then you can move around in relation to the point of light and present less of a target yourself. However, this is not an area I know anything about. . . people will probably laugh at this suggestion.

I once interviewed a guy who suffered a home invasion - ironically, it was his gun collection they came for; having firearms can actually _make_ you a target. They gave him no chance for heroics. There was a knock at the door, early one evening. It was still daylight and there was a smart, harmless-looking young guy out there, so he opened the door. A gun was pushed into his face, a couple of other guys appeared, and he was bound in duct tape. . . and found himself telling the guys exactly where to find his guns. 

There has been a series of break-ins in my neighbourhood in which guns seem to have attracted the criminals. Pistols have been taken while rifles have been left behind. Maybe there are less of these than break-ins for cash and jewelery, but I'd advise anyone here to keep quiet about their gun collection.

The only case I can make for "tactical" lights is that will likely find yourself arguing due dilligence when you find yourself in court, should you ever discharge your firearm in your home; it might just help your case.


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## Knight of Myth (Jan 4, 2007)

I recently aquired a Surefire G2 for nearly the same reason as you. Self defense. I must say that I am impressed with the output of the P60. Its 65 lumens is enough to flashblind someone and seriously impair their vision for a while. I have a P61 on the way as well as a holster for every day carry. I love the light. Enjoy yours.


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## Bryan (Jan 4, 2007)

Knight of Myth said:


> I recently aquired a Surefire G2 for nearly the same reason as you. Self defense. I must say that I am impressed with the output of the P60. Its 65 lumens is enough to flashblind someone and seriously impair their vision for a while. I have a P61 on the way as well as a holster for every day carry. I love the light. Enjoy yours.


 
I don't really feel the P60/P61 "seriously impairs" my vision all that much. I sat in the dark for a while (to get my eyes adjusted to the lack of light) then walked in my backyard and pretended to come through the back door. My brother then shined the light directly at my face from about 20 feet away. Yeah it was bright, but it wasn't enough to stop me. 

Sometimes I feel that people think their flashlights are like pepper spray, and even those are not all that effective sometimes. All I am saying is don't rely on your light for self defense. If you know someone is in your house and you don't own a firearm, lock yourself in a room and call for help. Don't count on your G2 to stop the threat. Bottom line, just be safe!


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## highorder (Jan 4, 2007)

> Sometimes I feel that people think their flashlights are like pepper spray, and even those are not all that effective sometimes. All I am saying is don't rely on your light for self defense. If you know someone is in your house and you don't own a firearm, lock yourself in a room and call for help. Don't count on your G2 to stop the threat. Bottom line, just be safe!



a big +1

never bring a knife to a gunfight, and never bring nothing to a knifefight.


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## Paul5M (Jan 4, 2007)

Bryan said:


> I don't really feel the P60/P61 "seriously impairs" my vision all that much. I sat in the dark for a while (to get my eyes adjusted to the lack of light) then walked in my backyard and pretended to come through the back door. My brother then shined the light directly at my face from about 20 feet away. Yeah it was bright, but it wasn't enough to stop me.
> 
> Sometimes I feel that people think their flashlights are like pepper spray, and even those are not all that effective sometimes. All I am saying is don't rely on your light for self defense. If you know someone is in your house and you don't own a firearm, lock yourself in a room and call for help. Don't count on your G2 to stop the threat. Bottom line, just be safe!


:goodjob:


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## beezaur (Jan 4, 2007)

I don't think anyone here seriously thinks of using a flashlight by itself as a weapon.

Scott


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## highorder (Jan 4, 2007)

anything can be used as a weapon. you'd be surprised at the effectiveness of a rolled up magazine in tight quarters.


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## Bryan (Jan 4, 2007)

beezaur said:


> I don't think anyone here seriously thinks of using a flashlight by itself as a weapon.
> 
> Scott


 
I certainly hope not! The M6 with the 'teeth' on the bezel might make a decent last resort weapon though


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## mdocod (Jan 4, 2007)

I've been contemplating the number of lumens (or lux, which would be more important for the blinding effect), needed to really play a noteworthy role in a confrontation. I've experimented with various lights I have here, at various distances.

before I move forward in my conclusions... I should point out that I have NEVER been in the situation that this thread is all about. I've never been in any good-guy/bad-guy guns/knives confrontation. My last fist fight was in the 5th grade. I'm a pretty easy going guy who looks for peaceful solutions to problems. I deliver pizzas, and sometimes not in the best parts of town. I avoid possible confrontation by scoping out apartment complexes for situations that I don't want to be involved in before choosing an entrance. I try to be as careful as I can be. I carry a 2x17670>P91 setup.. however... I'm inclined to up the power, because I don't feel like this would make or break a confrontation. 

After experimenting, on myself, in dark hallways and rooms inside. I have to say that while the P91, will certainly make it impossible to see anything but a bright light, it will not cause enough discomfort to really spin someone around in their tracks. I'm going to ballpark it- But somewhere around 1000-2000 lumens (depending on the focus) is getting into the category of being a component of your defense. (though I should never rely on my flashlight for anything more than possibly giving me an extra second to decide how to proceed. which will probably be RUN). I notice when doing similar experiments with lights like the THOR or the amondotech HID illuminator, the intensity of the light is overwhelming and painful. Enough so that I believe it COULD play a significant role in a confrontation... 

anyways.... If your GUN is your defense, then a G2 is fine for home security, because you have a GUN. If you are using a flashlight without a gun, then it had better be overwhelmingly bright before even considering it's use as a defensive weapon. And even then, you have to accept the possibility that even that won't help at all.


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## Bisley (Jan 26, 2007)

E2D??


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## Knight of Myth (Jan 27, 2007)

Shotgun is the way to go. The mere sound of a shotgun being pumped near by in the darkness is enough to scare someone into submission. If not, then you always have a more lethal alternative.


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## InfidelCastro (Jan 27, 2007)

Knight of Myth said:


> Shotgun is the way to go. The mere sound of a shotgun being pumped near by in the darkness is enough to scare someone into submission.






This has to be about the 11 billionth time I've heard this Myth repeated on the internet. 

And yes, you _do_ have to actually _aim_ a shotgun.


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## ringzero (Jan 27, 2007)

InfidelCastro said:


> This has to be about the 11 billionth time I've heard this Myth repeated on the internet.



Imagine yourself sneaking around in a strange dark house.

Then, imagine hearing that distinctive sound signature of a shell being racked into the chamber of a 12 gauge pump.

It'd scare me sh*tless, but as to whether it'd make me submit - I doubt it. My reaction would be more like, "Oh sh*t! Gotta get outa here, NOW!"

But, if I was crazed, doped up, or extremely agressive, I might just attack towards the sound...


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## DocArnie (Jan 27, 2007)

You might also think "Oh, this idiot of a family-protector just gave away his position! Bye bye daddy!"


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## Joe Talmadge (Jan 27, 2007)

frasera said:


> if the guys also got a gun, i think an obvious bright flashlight beam is going to make shooting you very easy, he can see you coming. he's got eyes aclimated to darkness, and your beam of light rounding the corner tells him exactly where to shoot.



Ya, just keeping your light on and walking around a corner would be a mistake. Only the woefully untrained would use a light that way or think that would be the right way to use a light, which is why the best advice in this thread has been, "if you're gonna use a light and handgun, get training". The light is an advantage to those who know what to do with it, otherwise it's a big shoot-me/ambush-me sign. 

A low-light walkthrough of your house can be eye-opening also. I found that even on moonless nights, coming from the vantage point of my bedroom, the giant window in my living room lets so much light in that anyone standing there or in the hallway is backlit (in other words, I'm in the dark, and anyone in front of me is backlit). I need light if I want to enter a bedroom, but otherwise, my best tactic is to keep the light off while coming down the pitch-black hallway and look for a backlit silhouette down through the living room, and only then use the light to positively identify it.


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## firefly99 (Jan 27, 2007)

Bear in mind a G2 is Surefire's budget entry level light. More likely it is design to increase brand awareness and attract customers from the civilian market. Although it beam qualify to be in the tactical category, it is not a tactical light for LEO applications.

If an intruder enters your house, you had already lost the battle. Just like shooting down a nuclear warhead in your airspace. Either way, you are toast, Game Over.

G2 is not big enough to use as a club to hit people. It is not bright or hot enough to set a fire on the intruder. Must be joking about using it for home defense.

It is an expensive light compare to others brand. It is also the 1st "REAL" flashlight for many of us. Let enjoy it as an around the house or in car flashlight that is durable.


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## Joe Talmadge (Jan 27, 2007)

firefly99 said:


> If an intruder enters your house, you had already lost the battle. Just like shooting down a nuclear warhead in your airspace. Either way, you are toast, Game Over.



Nonsense. You can prevail, and you'd better prevail. Obviously, preventing bad guy from getting into your house (or even being interested in your house) is job 1, but if he's in, it's not a foregone conclusion that you've lost.



> G2 is not big enough to use as a club to hit people. It is not bright or hot enough to set a fire on the intruder. Must be joking about using it for home defense.



What does being big enough to use as a club have to do with home defense, especially if you're also armed with a firearm? The primary job of the flashlight is to assist you in locating and positively identifying the bad guy. From there you can choose how to engage, whether it's verbal, with your firearm, with your light, or sitting tight. Any other function like blinding the bad guy or lighting him on fire (LOL, we wish, eh?) is gravy.

To the OP:
The G2 is absolutely tough enough (in fact, there's indications that the G2 protects the P60 lamp better than some of the aluminum lights do) and bright enough to do every job you'd ask a tactical flashlight to do. If someone tells you otherwise, ask them how they've trained and where specifically it was non-ideal versus (say) the similar-sized aluminum lights.

Joe


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