# Whats the brightest bulb I could run with a 12xAA hotwire?



## MikeHunt79 (Aug 7, 2006)

After reading around this forum, I'm planning on using a 3d mag as a host. I was going to try and stuff 12xAA in there. This is as far as I've got. I know that I will need a new reflector and lens, and I might have to mod the switch.

After reading around, 7.2v is a good voltage for some bulbs, so this could be done by wiring up the aa's in pairs, so that it will be like having 6 cells in series?

Also, I'm guessing that 5 amps is the most that AA's can handle, and it can vary from brand to brand.... Are there any brands that work well for hotwire mods?

Finally, what bulb to use. I'm guessing I could get away with 7.2v at 10a, and p=ir, so 72w is as high as I could go in theory. What I really want is a bulb thats known to work well with hotwire mods, and runs around 60w or maybe 70w.


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## xpitxbullx (Aug 7, 2006)

I think you have more options at 12V vs 7.2V

Jeff


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## winny (Aug 7, 2006)

If your batteries can take the abuse (5.5 A), you can run all of them in series and power a Osram 65 W IRC bulb. At 14.4 V, you will get 3180 bulb lumen.


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## Delvance (Aug 7, 2006)

www.cheapbatterypacks.com

Go for CBP1650s if using AA format, 12 cells (oh, use 12V...much more light). Try an osram 64625 bulb it may or may not work...if it does though, it'll be pretty sweet. Or can do 11 cells and a 62138 bulb (osram again). Might be an idea to look into getting a regulator as well if you want a nice light. That way the 64625 bulb will be guaranteed to work without risk of hot off the charger instaflashing. You'll also need a KIU bipin socket. The regulator can be obtained from AWR (member) over in CPF's customd and mod b/s/t section (called a hotdriver). Winny also made some regulator kits as well but they are currently out of production. GL.

Oh almost forgot...with the CBP1650s...one problem is they won't fit 4 wide into a mag body with boring...so if you wanted to use a stock 3D light...you might have to look at doing a 50 or maybe a 75W mod instead. The above mentioned bulbs will all be running over 120W.


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## Knight Lights (Aug 7, 2006)

12 CBP cells will toast both the 64625 and 62138 and will not drive the Osram 65W IRC sufficiently. 

The best bet with 12 cells and no regulation is the 64623, which will handle more than 12 cells easily and is pretty bright on 12. 

Bill


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## Delvance (Aug 7, 2006)

Iirc, someone reported running a 64625 12 cells DD fine, which is why i said it may or may not work... That member may just have a freak bulb. I suggested the 62138 with 11 cells in my above post.

The IRC bulbs really need a 15 cell DD or 16 cell regulated solution to be able to compare to the 64625, but if the 65W IRC runs at over 3000 bulb lumens on 12AAs as suggested by Winny, the output will be about the same as a 62138 on 11 CBP1650s but the runtime will be alot longer. The IRC bulb would only pull around 6A vs the ~9A the 62138 will draw.

64623 on 12 cells will be quite yellow and probably won't match the 64625. It sure would survive the 12 CBP1650s hot off the charger though.


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## winny (Aug 7, 2006)

Perhaps I should add that getting 14.4 V out of your battery pack at 6 A would require quite good batteries (read CPB1650) and that would mean a (high) risk of instaflash when they are fully charged. Still, if one would manage, you would get over 3000 bulb lumen.


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## VWTim (Aug 7, 2006)

FWIW, the newest offering of CBP1650's DO fit 4 wide in unbored Mag hosts.


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## Delvance (Aug 7, 2006)

VWTim said:


> FWIW, the newest offering of CBP1650's DO fit 4 wide in unbored Mag hosts.


 
That's good news for 100W+ builders on a budget VWTim.

I think Awr has tested those IRC bulbs to be good for over 18V, so 12 CBP1650s hot off the charger should not pose any problems. IIRC, the reported optimal solution for these IRC bulbs currently are either 15 high current NiMHs DD or regulated 16 NiMhs.

I'll just stick with my 64623 bulb atm...


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## winny (Aug 8, 2006)

Delvance said:


> I think Awr has tested those IRC bulbs to be good for over 18V, so 12 CBP1650s hot off the charger should not pose any problems. IIRC, the reported optimal solution for these IRC bulbs currently are either 15 high current NiMHs DD or regulated 16 NiMhs.



They don't break until you pass 21 V...

Why only 16 NiMHs?


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## Delvance (Aug 8, 2006)

winny said:


> They don't break until you pass 21 V...
> 
> Why only 16 NiMHs?


 
Haha indeed! The hotter the wire, the better :devil: .

If we want to run it at the bleeding edge of 21V...going to want to use a regulator then. Waiting for battery packs to cool down is not fun and instaflash is also not fun. Especially when you're down to your last bulb (speaking from experience)...17 NiMHs sure would make a heavy light though haha.


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## MikeHunt79 (Aug 8, 2006)

Thanks for all the recommendations... I think I've narrowed it down to the osram IRC bulbs, as I like the idea of usings the AA's hot off the charger and not having to worry about instaflash. 

I think I'll order a 50w and 65w IRC as I've found a supplier in the uk... This is my first attempt at a hotwire, and I'm looking forward to having something more than 1000 lumens.


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## bwaites (Aug 8, 2006)

The IRC lamps will be yellow on 12 cells, they produce a lot of light, but it is definitely yellow at that drive level.

The 64623 will handle the hot off the charger cells and be noticeably brighter.

Bill


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## winny (Aug 8, 2006)

Err, no, they won't. At the rated 12 V, they have a CCT of 3000 K. At 14.4 V (assuming your batteries can cope, otherwise you are screwed), they will be 3250 K instead. If you think that's yellow, you have used too many LED-based lights.


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## andrewwynn (Aug 9, 2006)

It's a funny line about 'used too many LED lights'.. but the reality is 'used a 64625 light'.. to me.. the IRC lamps are still quite yellow at 18+V.. but it does depend on your own calibration of your own eyes... i'm siding with bill on this one.. IRC lamps are very yellow from 12-cell solution.. they will never ever ever burn out though.. there is always a trade-off. 

I personally wouldn't bother using an IRC lamp below 15 cells, it's about where they start being nice n white and nice n bright.. it's also about where they are more efficient than the 64625 or 62138 lamps... if they aren't more efficient and they are far less white, than what is the advantage, right?

The whitest and most practical light for 12 cells is the 64610, but i think 11 cells is the maximum for direct-drive ... works reaaaally nice regulated though. 

two people have recently built 1000L hotwires from 1185 lamp by running at 11.5V.. using 12-cell hosts but batteries with less output capability than CBP 1650s.. they sagged in voltage 'just right'. 

The IRC lamps are wonderful to the battery packs.. at 5 to 7 A.. it's a sigh of relief for the power plant. 

64610 = 1376L at 13.0V (62W) and 3590 CCT (pretty much 'off the chart white). 

IRC35 = 930L at 14.25V (47W) and 3168 CCT (not very white by hotwire standards)
IRC50 = 1280L at 14.2V (63W) and 3164 CCT
IRC65 = 1724 at 14.15V (83W) and 3161 CCT

now..try 15 cells... 

IRC35 = 1809 at 17.85 (67W) and 3402 CCT
IRC50 = 2356 at 17.80 (90W) and 3399 CCT
IRC65 = 3180 at 17.75 (118W) and 3396 CCT

very useful white and now the efficiency is more than the standard hotwire lights. (the efficiency of a 64610 at 13.0V is higher than the IRC lamps).

Because of the FAR whiter light.. the 64610 will seem brighter than the IRC 65 if they are both driven from a 12-cell solution. 

To answer the question about 16 cells.. i'm designing for long-term reliabilty.. the lamps that i've pushed over 19 volts have darkened within 1 hr of total use.. the ones i've run under 19 volts have stayed crystal clear with well over an hour of use. I have a small sample size, but there are other reasons in my particular case to stick with 16 cells (or using 5xD LiON which works really nice). 

The main thing for cell count is that 3 is the magic multiplier if you are putting them into a mag-based host.. so 15 or 18 cells are 'where it's at'.. 18 cells is clearly out of the question, and 15 i believe you can get away with direct drive, so it's a great solution for a quick n dirty mod. 

Back to the '12AA' solution.. I find that the 1650s don't have great holding power at 9+A so i recommend the 64610 solution with a regulator.... it will stay in regulation very long and pulling only 4.77A.. runtime is very nice and whoa that light is bright and white. I have gotten away with running at 13.2 (so i could swap with 62138 lamp).. but it's sooo close to the melting point if i set up a light purpose-built for the '610 i use 13.0V and let the regulator hold back some of that voltage.

I'm definitely with bill on the 'don't bother' with IRC for 12cell.. the output looks like a normal incan light not a hotwire.. if you want to make a hotwire, make a hotwire. 

unregulated.. the 64623 will net you the most light that's for sure.. 2831 calculated lumen.. but a 64625 lamp at 12.6V blows it away. 

11 cells and the 625 lamp is definitely my favorite solution for a typical 3D host but i'm not happy with the performance of the 1650 battery at over 9A, so for 12AA i recommend the 610 lamp. 

-awr


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## Delvance (Aug 9, 2006)

I find that with the 64623, it doesn't really shine until 12 high powered NiMH's are used (ie. more power than an AA). It's super stunning on 13 NiMH's! My personal 100W+ is a 64623 with 13 GP 2000 cells. Safe to say it'd be at least 3600 torch lumens imho. It's a very floody bulb though, manages about 70,000 lux with a fresh pack and focused on throw...generally i have the light focused for massive directional flood and once the batt. pack sags a bit...it's around 45,000 lux.

Oh yeah...forgot. Click my sig to see what the 64623 looks like on 13 GP2000s fully charged.


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## winny (Aug 9, 2006)

awr,

How did you end up with 3168 K at 14.25 V from 12 V, 3000 K? An interpolated figure for that using Osrams OEM-guide will give you 3236.74926887068 K

Is the 64610 an Xenophot?


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## andrewwynn (Aug 9, 2006)

64610 yes on xenophot.. it's an incredible lamp.. the filament is tiny tiny.. maybe 1/4 or 1/6 the volume of the big daddy 625. 

I use the formula that welch allyn uses.. Vdrive/Vrated^.317 * CCT rated

i use the same formula for all the re-ratings i do, so they are consistent. What do you mean by interpolated? do you have a formula or are you interpolating from a chart (which won't make sense to have decimal precision). 

-awr


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## winny (Aug 9, 2006)

Sorry, wrong manufacturer. In _Philips_ OEM-guide, there was a U-CCT-chart which I extracted 20 numbers from and ran an x^a-regression on it in order to extra- or interpolate any given point. I did not end up with x^3.17.


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## bwaites (Aug 9, 2006)

Winny, 3000 is not white to me, and trust me, I don't have too many LED's. 

I've got something like 120 Hotwires and less than 10 LED's!

You have to get the temps up alot before they look white to me and the IRC's don't get there until they are pushed a lot harder than 12 AA cells of any kind will do. 

As far as that goes, I started following the IRC lamps more than 2 years ago. Andrew got his first ones from me! Ginseng was running them in his Aurora proto nearly 3 years ago!

Bill


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## andrewwynn (Aug 11, 2006)

i thought i posted a follow-up.. must have went to the bit-bucket.

in any event.. thanks mucho bill for those testers.. let me know if you have a use for some replacements and i can send brand new ones (since one of them is quite darkend from lab abuse.. it's the one i use for testing drivers now). 

thanks mucho to winny for hard-core test-to-the-death on a couple IRC lamps (i think they were 50s) to determine an absolute max for us.. and for selling me my second big batch of the hot little buggers. 

One of my hotdriver clients made a series-parallel pack from 12 cells to run 7.2V.. you can run the philips 30W or the osram 35W lamp.. at about 900 torch lumen.. the 64610 is surely brighter but it pushes the cells harder also.. i think the first two examples are about 60W to the lamp and maybe 50 minutes runtime!

-awr


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## dksd39 (Sep 22, 2006)

After reading thru this tread last month I decided I need two new lights--a USL (just because)and a Mag610-- basically same reason. Now I have both and can say I love both But, I would have to totally agree with andrewwynn about the 610----WOW is it white. The USL of course puts out more light volume but the 610 kicks butt it the color department. If you have the means--build one.


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## JimmyM (Sep 26, 2006)

winny said:


> If your batteries can take the abuse (5.5 A), you can run all of them in series and power a Osram 65 W IRC bulb. At 14.4 V, you will get 3180 bulb lumen.


 
Wait wait wait. I can run an IRC bulb at 14.4 volts. Oh, say 12 Ds in a 6D M*g with extensions? Crazy run time. I imagine the Ds wouldn't sag that much so I'd DEFINITELY need an LDO or PIR.
What are the bulbs that folks are talking about running at ~18.5 volts?


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## winny (Sep 26, 2006)

JimmyM,

1.45 V * 12 = 17.4 V. That's a bit risky to run without regulation but if you either leave your batteries for a couple of hours after you have charged them or don't charge them fully (the runtime will not be effected much), you should be able to pull it of without regulation.

Folks are talking about running the same bulb at 18.5 V. Because it contains some European Technology(TM), it lasts a considerable amount of time even at that high voltage, and the efficiency is great!


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## JimmyM (Sep 26, 2006)

Here's a question regarding the run time provided by 12AH Ds... Would the light meltdown or go into thermal shutdown before the batteries run dead? Aside from the IRC-65, what would just be stunning on 13.2-14.4v regulated. A 64625 or 64623?

I'm planning out ahead for my "monster" light. I have no problem, other than availability, with extending a M*g to 12D+. In fact it would just make it more impressive.

Also, winny, you've got to get the PIR2 into production. <insert begging gesture here>. A few of those and the KIU sockets...


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## winny (Sep 26, 2006)

JimmyM,

It depends if you have any circuitry with a temperature sensor or not. I actually haven't tried with a bare reflector (such as a FM) and bulb, but the USL users say their flashlights get very very hot after a couple of minutes. What I have tried is MR16's with dichotic mirrors (reflecting heat backwards, very counter-productive for us) and glass-wool insulation. After 10 minutes, the glass-wool had blackened and the ceramic base was glowing red. 
If you would get a properly good reflector and one of petrev's Mag replacement heads, you might be able to run it for longer periods (read 15+ minutes), but the biggest issue is that a large amount of the waste heat is transported away though the base. Shooting out 50W of IR radiation is not an as big concern as trying to transfer away 10 W from the base in a confined space.

With 12 D batteries, you will have plenty of power to play with. The problem is finding a good lamp in the 100 W+ category. It would look awesome with a 12D!

I know, I know. 95 % of the planning is ready so I only need to find the time to start manufacturing them...


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## Hogokansatsukan (Sep 26, 2006)

So if I happen to pick up some 64610 bulbs, a 12AA to 3D holder from the Sandwich Shoppe, and put some 2500 NiMH in it, I'll have a pretty good light? Will I need a regulator for this?


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## winny (Sep 26, 2006)

Hogokansatsukan,

It depends. If you do like I said above (don't charge fully or leave your batteries for a while so that the voltage will drop a bit), you should be fine without. There is always a risk of instaflash, but if your lamp have survived 10 starts at whatever voltage you dare trying, it will most likley continue to do so.


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## andrewwynn (Sep 27, 2006)

2500 cells will not push the 610.. the light will probably light but the cells will not put out even 1V/cell.. you won't even get full power much less overdrive.. the good news is that it would likely not blow the lamp. The bad news .. is that the bat pack mentioned won't handle the current load with the springs.. i think they are rated for 1 or 2A max.

the 610 is a mysterious lamp.. it's color temperature indicates an efficiency and bulb life that should be 'off scale'.. i'm not comfortable running it over 13.2V.. and direct-drive it will be far higher for a minute or two with capable cells. 

the 610 is one of the more popular solutions for 12AA since it doesn't over-drive the cells if you use 1650 cells... and it's just a simply stunning light.

-awr


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## Hogokansatsukan (Sep 27, 2006)

It seems the 1650 cells are out of stock, and have been for awhile. Is there a good alternative to use here? I have a 12AA to 3D adapter, but if the springs won't handle the load...why did I buy it exactly? Hmmmm. Must be able to use it for something. 
Is there a battery combination that will run this lamp without boring out the light as well.
I can get the 12AA batteries in the light... if I just get a bigger hammer.


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## andrewwynn (Sep 27, 2006)

the 12AA>3D works fine for lower voltage cells.. a decent holder for normal cells and the 1166 lamp.. very decent runtime.. maybe 1hr! oh.. and some AAs will fit w/o boring just do the research. 

-awr


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## Hogokansatsukan (Sep 28, 2006)

Cheap Battery Packs had the 1650's so I ordered 12. My 64610 lamps arrived today. So, am I to understand that my battery holder may not be up to spec with the springs?
I also noticed that I will have to bore out the reflector as the 64610 bulbs are too large to fit through it. (edit: FiveMega SMO reflector came today. No need to bore it out!)
Any good source for 1166 bulbs? LightEdge seems to be out.
OH WHEN DOES IT ALL END?!!!

I guess when I burn my retna's out.:candle:


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## Cevulirn (Sep 28, 2006)

Alright, here's a question from a beginner.

What bulb should I run with 20 AA Nimh cells? Can I go direct drive, or aught I go regulated?


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## Ctechlite (Feb 13, 2007)

Bookmarking for reference....good info here


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## andrewwynn (Feb 21, 2007)

cevulirn: 24V lamps are available.. if you direct-drive you will not have a very white or efficient solution.. the problem is the wild range of voltage (20 cells hot off the charger = 29V.. 20 cells near fully discharged = 21V)... high-efficiency lamps can't deal with that much variance in voltage in addition.. the brightness changes by the CUBE (actually more) of the change in voltage. 

The other possibility is makng your pack series-parallel.. 12V solutions are easier to figure out and halving the current draw from the batteries will make a smoother discharge curve for sure.

-awr


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## js (Feb 21, 2007)

Cevulrin,

I more or less disagree with Andrew on this. You don't need regulation for any incandescent solution. You simply make sure that the starting voltage (under load) won't blow your lamp or push it too far, and let the end of the run land where it may. True, it is less than optimal. Regulation is better. But it's no more or less otimal for the higher votlage lamps than for the lower voltage lamps.

Why? Simple. Overdrive is a function of the *ratio* of applied vs. design voltage. Thus what matters is what _percentage_ of the votlage you are over driving. This will be the same for any number of cells because its all a function of how much the single _cell voltage_ changes during the discharge.

Now, granted, if you are in a regiem where your curve goes to crap in a real hurry, then, yes, you will fall well below efficient drive levels in the second half of the run. But you wouldn't want to use cells with such a poor discharge curve anyway.

However, the Titanium 1800 AA cells or CBP1650 AA cells could definitely do a fair job of direct driving the Osram 64655 HLX 250 Watt 24 volt lamps. Probably 22 cells would be about right for a single stack, maybe even 23, _if you have low circuit path resistance_. Check out SilverFox's NiMH battery shootout thread. At the very bottom of the first post appears the graph for the Titanium 1800's at various current draws. Notice that they can handle up to 15 amps.

Plus, I mean, what the heck? Regulation on a 250 watt incan? How long is such a light likely going to run, anyway? You probably only going to light it up for a minute or two at a time. Regulation would be a waste. Plus, the only regulator I know that would handle it would be the large Willie Hunt LVR, and he's not selling his regulators to small buyers anymore. (i.e. if you want just one LVR, forget it).

Be warned, though: messing with a 100 watt, or a 250 watt incan is serious and dangerous business. There are heat, fire, and explosion risks. Be careful. Be very careful.


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## molite (Mar 2, 2007)

I run this in a 12x set up it's whiter(and smaller)than the Osram 64623 and the price is right.

12 Volt Halogen Bi-Pin Lamp Lamp (Higuchi JC 5057)(G6.35 base) Wattage = 100 watt)
$2.80
I get them here: http://www.purelandsupply.com/item....17&PRID=1383944
They ship pretty fast.


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## 02Scuba (Mar 16, 2007)

I run my bored out Mag 3D with the Osram 610 and 12 CBP 2000s (which replaces the 1650s) in a 12 AA / 3D holder - 14.4 volts. I am running it with AWR's HD/KIU set-up and it kicks the crap out of any Mag 85 I have compared it to. I think you are safe running this set up unregulated just don't run the light with the batteries hot of the charger. The HD shuts the light down after about 35 minutes to prevent damage to the cells but unregulated I bet you the light would burn for another 10 minutes (you run the risk of damaging your batteries, however).

You can run other AAs like the Accupower 2900's or Sanyo's 2700's but you will not get the bright white light you do with with the CBP 2000s

Do not even attenpt to run the Osram 625 on 12 AA's. That bulb runs in the 12 volt range so you would need to run 11 and a dummy. Your just not going to get the amps with this set-up. If you want to run the 625, your going to need 4/5th cells. I would recommend the Elite 2000 CPB. Again, your going tohave to run 11 and a dummy and tweak your holder for this cell. Trust me, the 610 is a lot simpler way to go.

Good luck !


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