# question from a CFL newbie



## swlee (Aug 21, 2004)

I'm thinking about getting a floor lamp and use a CFL bulb. If I get a lamp with a 60W socket, does that mean I can use a CFL bulb with a wattage up to 60W? I guess I'm asking what is the highest wattage CFL bulb that can be safely used in a regular 60W socket. Thanks for the help


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## Zelandeth (Aug 21, 2004)

Simple answer: Yes.

Provided that the lamp fits, you're good. I have an 85W CFL here (though you'd hardly call it compact!), and it is BRIGHT.

That bulb, and some others can be found at http://zelandeth.artamir.org/ and going to the "LED and Lighting" page. (That page is still VERY much under construction, so I appologise for the broken links and lack of much content).


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## yuandrew (Aug 21, 2004)

Most lamps have wireing and sockets that are rated much higher than the other parts of the lamp.

For an example; I have a lamp with a socket rated for a 250 watt light bulb {thats a lot of light}. However; the paper lamp shade is not made to take the heat created by a 250 watt incandescent bulb so I'm restricted to a 75 watt light bulb in that lamp.
Since fluorescent lamps generate less heat than incandescent lamps; it should be ok to use the large CFL in a lamp that is rated for smaller incandescent bulbs.

CFLs are great for getting more light for less out of small lamps. I have a few lamps that can only take 60 watt incandescent bulbs. Since my 23 watt CFL gives out about as
much light as a 100 watt incandescent; I can use a CFL in those lamps to get more light out than what the lamp can normally give with a 60 watt bulb and still not exceed the rateing.

What kind of floor lamp are you getting; a standard lamp with a shade or a torchier? Circular or 2D style CFLs would work great in those lamps.


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## swlee (Aug 21, 2004)

I'm thinking about a torchier

I have a halogen lamp in my room right now but it creates way too much heat

So I figured I could get a floor lamp that has two or three sockets and get high watt CFLs to recreate similar lumens without the heat

which brand CFLs are the best? Also, would having two or three CFLs close together create too much interference?


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## brickbat (Aug 21, 2004)

I think its a good idea. Usually the best value on CFL's is in the smaller sizes - 13 to 25 watts or so. So using several of those instead of one large one is a good bet. (keep in mind that CFL manufacturers are confusing the issue lately, by marking their packaging with the real electrical wattage and the equivalent incandescent light rating, usually 3 or 4 times higher - ignore the latter number - just go by the electrical watts and the lumen output)

Interference? what do you mean?

As for brand, that depends on how much you want to spend. Few would argue that the big names are probably the best - GE, Philips, etc. But, I've had good luck with Home depot's 'commercial electric' brand and some other brand I can't even remember. In the US, CFLs are somewhat regulated by the EPA now, and they all tend to deliver pretty respectable color and CRI (assuming you like warmish tones in your lighting). If you want something cooler (some would say more 'natural') you'll have to look harder, and there will be fewer choices.


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## swlee (Aug 22, 2004)

thanks for all the info

as for the interference, I heard that CFLs can cause interference with remote controls and things like that. Maybe it's no longer an issue?


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## brickbat (Aug 22, 2004)

Yes. it's possible for electronic ballasted lamps, like CFLs, to interfere with IR remote controls. Possible, but rarely a problem.


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## Negeltu (Aug 22, 2004)

For some reason cfls don't last very long in my house /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif I opened one up after it went out and found the resistors fried on it's board. They got so hot they unsoldered themselves... What a nasty smell.


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## yuandrew (Aug 25, 2004)

Hmm, what brand of CFL are you useing Negeltu and what kind of light are they in?

I heard here that you should avoid Lights of America brand CFLs. It seems as if their newer ones aren't as good as the older models.

I still have a Lights of America 13 watt "The Bulb" (well not a "bulb" anymore since I broke the diffuser over the tubes so now the tubes are exposed and it looks like a normal CFL. It's about 7 years old but it still works although it is slightly dimmer than when it was new. The ends of the tubes where the electrodes are is turning black so I think it's getting pretty close to the end) 






Swlee, if you're getting a torchier, they have torchiers that are made to use CFLs. I have one myself (Lights of America Grand Liberty white CFL torchier) There are better brands so you could look around LOWE'S and pick out some.
My LOA torchier seems to eat bulbs a lot but I found some TCP brand CFLS that fit in the LOA's socket and they are lasting longer than the LOA bulbs that originally came with the lamp.


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## Negeltu (Aug 26, 2004)

FEIT Electric is the name on the bulbs... I put them in everything.. the ceiling lights... lamps.. doesn't matter really where I put them as they don't last long either way lol. When they go out they release smoke and a nasty... almost chlorine smell. makes the whole house stink. I open them up and every resistor on the friggin' board is crumbling and black...and has desoldered itself... it's nasty /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif Looks like there is a fuse wired on the board though.. you'd think it would blow first.


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## yuandrew (Aug 26, 2004)

Man, those must have gotten really Hot! Guess you should try a different brand of CFL. You could check out EFI.org for some other brands of CFLs. I think TCP makes the Commercial Electric brand CFLs at Home Depot


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## Negeltu (Aug 27, 2004)

Thanks... I'll take a look. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif


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## jtr1962 (Aug 27, 2004)

I had a Feit bulb fail in a similar manner-the transistors blew out. The bulb did last over 5000 hours in outdoor duty so at least I didn't get greatly shortened lifetime.


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## udaman (Aug 27, 2004)

[ QUOTE ]
*jtr1962 said:*
I had a Feit bulb fail in a similar manner-the transistors blew out. The bulb did last over 5000 hours in outdoor duty so at least I didn't get greatly shortened lifetime. 

[/ QUOTE ]

Hmm, I've had lots of failed CFL over the years, never last as long as they are supposed to with the base where the ballast is located literally baking/frying itself from heat of failed internal electronics. Being that most are now made in China (isn't everything that is inexpensive?) there seems to be higher failure rate than once was the case. Remember also, that fluors lose their stated max lumens a bit faster as they age compared to incandescent before they fail/wear out. Even the brand new ones can develop flickering, and steer clear of 3-way bulbs as they require absolutely clean contacts to get to full output. To some extent CFL technology is still evolving into a product of more robust reliability/quality as compared to the mature incandescents, which are to be sure, less complex.

swlee, can you be more specific as to what your prior lamp was, what wattage halogen, what type of bulb, what country you are using them in because there are different styles of sockets, what type of lamp/shade? Most important here is how much do you want to spend?

Many people, myself included (even more so with my elderly parents) hate the color rendition of fluoros in general, but some of the warm (and I stress SOME) white fluors, like those Chinese made warm white they are now selling at Home Depot, are fairly close to incandescent bulb color that you may be used to and comfortable with. You don't want to buy a cool white fluoro and then end up hating it for the bluish white light it produces. Now they are selling in Home Depot stores, newer 'daylight' fluors, but these do put out white light that is biased with a certain bluish like color. It all depends on how sensitive you are to the color. The so called 'full spectrum' fluors which cost a pretty penny, do a better job of fully rendering colors,,. if you have the cash, buy them. Here is but one place that sells this type of fluor. (link is for HO 105w fluoro, but check the whole site for 'full spectrum, or Google for more results)

http://www.naturallighting.com/show_product.cfm?&product_id=171

Then again, if you can afford to buy *any light* and don't mind paying a huge sum of money, MicroSun makes table and floor lamps with color corrected/balanced coating 67w metal halide HID's that are quite nice, when you further balance (I'm an amateur photographer and very, very picky about color of light) the output for maximum contrast when reading, with warm white fluors as replacements for the 2 25w incandescents that come with the lamps.

http://www.microsun.com/MFAQs.html

In the end, any lamp that consumes more than about 30-40w may heat up your room too much, if a 60w incandescent is getting things a bit too hot, then so will any other kind of lamp technology. However, a 67w HID like the MicroSun will light up a room almost as well as a 300w halogen, with substantially less heat generated, but it does generate heat---as would a 60w CFL.

BTW, jtr, don't tell CPF member js's wife, but he's the real die-hard JA fan /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif and Tigerlight upgrade guru here , and I have no idea what your were referring to as 'other' forum, as that 'other' forum does not allow avatars at present (or did you mean the 'other', other forum I post to, ;-) ?



compliments to FrenchyLED for this animated gif)
My browser crashed and I lost the history file when searching on aquarium sites which gave a link to Japanese trade/technical article on specialized metal halide 180lm/w HID being researched for commercial greenhouse operations.


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## James S (Aug 27, 2004)

About 5 or 6 years ago I bought a whole room full of Lights of America lights, and all but 2 of them are still in service. however, the lights I purchased the following year all burnt out within a week. So I have avoided them for a long time because I was mad about that. However, they are now producing some dimmable ones that aren't too expensive and are compatible with the X10 dimmers I have in the house and I'm again having good luck with them. Just keep the receipts and return whatever dies in the short term and like any electronics, assume that a certain number of them will be DOA or dead shortly thereafter, but the ones that live out the first month will probably last for years.

VERY VERY important for CF lamps is the power quality and even the lamp socket quality. I had a lamp by our couch that I lost almost $50 worth of bulbs in 6 months, I tried various brands and types and sizes and they all died a quick death. Turns out the problem was in the lamp itself, a slightly charred and loose socket was causing the power to the lamp to be jittery or unreliable or whatever and they hate that. I replaced the socket in the lamp and the last bulb in there has been burning happily 5 or 6 hours a day every day for the last 3 years. I had a similar experience with a recessed lighting fixture in this new house. A previous bulb had been screwed in so tight that it had bent the positive connection far enough away that it wasn't making good contact with the light and causing them to die early. I fixed that by (turn off the circuit breaker first please!) using a pair of needle nose pliers to pry the connection down a fraction of an inch so it would make good contact again. It is really important to inspect the condition of the socket if you want the bulb to last. I suppose it's also possible that if you have bad power in general from some other problem in the house wiring that it would cause the same issues.

as far as brands, I am also having good luck with the commercial electric products from home depot. The color of the twisted tube ones is not that different from an incandescent, slightly whiter, but not obviously blue. I prefer this to the greyish/blueish white that passes for some daylight color in some brands. Though some folks around here love it, try 1 before you buy a whole bunch or you might find you hate the thing so much you'll throw $50 worth of them away rather than endure it /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif The other thing I like about the CE brand is that they really are instant on, they are dimmer when they turn on, but there is no flicker or pause at all, they just come on, someone turning on your lights wouldn't even necessarily notice that you're using florescent bulbs. Many other brands, sylvania, lights of america and especially GE all have a heartbeat between turning on the switch and coming on and when they do it's often a flicker for a second. The dimmable ones from lights of america are not too bad about this, better than the rest but also more expensive. The reflector bulbs from Commercial Electric are much "bluer" in their coloring and take longer to warm up. But I really like the 85 watt indoor flood. I have about 10 of them in the house and they are great. Not a single DOA or one die in the last year. Though they do take a minute or more to reach full brightness.


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## jtr1962 (Aug 27, 2004)

[ QUOTE ]
*udaman said:*
BTW, jtr, don't tell CPF member js's wife, but he's the real die-hard JA fan /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif and Tigerlight upgrade guru here , and I have no idea what your were referring to as 'other' forum, as that 'other' forum does not allow avatars at present (or did you mean the 'other', other forum I post to, ;-) 

[/ QUOTE ]
Don't worry, your secret's safe with me, and I definitely meant the "other" forum which doesn't allow avatars, but where you posted a couple of JA pics in some of your posts, including a large version of the one you took your avatar from. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif Haven't seen you there in a while though. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mecry.gif

I agree with you about the so-called full-spectrum CFLs being the best but rather pricey. I've found it's more cost effective to use linear T-8 full spectrum tubes. I get these for $7 each, but they last 4 times as long as the $12 to $20 full-spectrum CFLs do (rated life = 34,000 hours!). They're also quite a bit more efficient (92 lm/W vs 60 to 70 ). I have four of them on my bedroom ceiling, and six in my electronics workshop. I'm so used to them that any other type of CFL or linear tube looks lousy by comparison. Incandescents? I hate them for general lighting. Always did, even when I was a kid. Too much heat and much too yellow. The only types which put out relatively acceptable light by my standards are the very short life, high filament temperature ones. For home lighting those obviously aren't practical.

I'd love to put one of those 180 lm/W, 1000W HIDs you mentioned in my workroom, provided the color rendering is decent. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/happy14.gif


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## evan9162 (Aug 27, 2004)

I also like the Commercial Electric bulbs from Home Depot. The funny thing about them is, it is extremely difficult to find a name-brand (Sylvania, GE, philips, etc.) CF bulb that can be in a fully enclosed or recessed fixture, yet every single Commercial Electric bulb I've seen is just peachy in them - all of them from the 14W mini spiral to the big (huge) 30W (I think) spirals.

CE's reflector lamps are nice too. I have two in the kicthen and one in the bathroom (over the shower). THe kitchen ones turn on at nearly full brightness, and are brighter and whiter than the 60W incan floodlights. The one in the bathroom, however, turns on a very dim and pink color at first, and takes about a minute to warm up. Though this isn't necessarily a bad thing - the only time it's used is first thing in the morning for a shower, and having a dim light that gradually brightens up is actually easier on tired eyes /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif


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## PlayboyJoeShmoe (Aug 27, 2004)

When Big Lots had LOA lamps I bought several. They ended up in my bathroom fixtures, as I found them too blueish for elsewhere.

I have recently gotten CE bulbs at Home Depot. I'm sitting under a 23W version of the Warm White CE and find the light just peachey!

My home now has CE bulbs in every light that spends much time on (bedrooms, kitchen, living room lamp etc).

I had gotten one Daylight CE. HOLY SMOKES that thing is BLUE. It is in one socket in my bathroom and it stands out like a sore among LOAs.

I have two lights in my house that eat bulbs.... I am going to inspect those sockets!!!


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## James S (Aug 27, 2004)

[ QUOTE ]
I had gotten one Daylight CE. HOLY SMOKES that thing is BLUE.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree completely! I can't use them under any kind of normal work condition. i bought 2 of them 6 months ago and they sat in the drawer for a long time till I found a place for them. Right now they are in the fixture above the washer and dryer. I think that they let you see where you need to use the stain spray better /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif But anywhere else they drive me crazy.


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## flashfan (Aug 27, 2004)

I'm very pleased with my new 85-watt, 6,000+k bulb, it provides much more "usable" light than the 105-watt warm white CFL that I had been using. There seemed to be a little aqua tinge to the light at first, but I don't notice it anymore.

I've always liked bright, white light--inherited from my father, I guess, who'll pick white fluorescent lighting over incandescent any day.


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## turbodog (Aug 28, 2004)

[ QUOTE ]
*James S said:*
About 5 or 6 years ago I bought a whole room full of Lights of America lights, and all but 2 of them are still in service. however, the lights I purchased the following year all burnt out within a week. So I have avoided them for a long time because I was mad about that. However, they are now producing some dimmable ones that aren't too expensive and are compatible with the X10 dimmers I have in the house and I'm again having good luck with them. Just keep the receipts and return whatever dies in the short term and like any electronics, assume that a certain number of them will be DOA or dead shortly thereafter, but the ones that live out the first month will probably last for years.

VERY VERY important for CF lamps is the power quality and even the lamp socket quality. I had a lamp by our couch that I lost almost $50 worth of bulbs in 6 months, I tried various brands and types and sizes and they all died a quick death. Turns out the problem was in the lamp itself, a slightly charred and loose socket was causing the power to the lamp to be jittery or unreliable or whatever and they hate that. I replaced the socket in the lamp and the last bulb in there has been burning happily 5 or 6 hours a day every day for the last 3 years. I had a similar experience with a recessed lighting fixture in this new house. A previous bulb had been screwed in so tight that it had bent the positive connection far enough away that it wasn't making good contact with the light and causing them to die early. I fixed that by (turn off the circuit breaker first please!) using a pair of needle nose pliers to pry the connection down a fraction of an inch so it would make good contact again. It is really important to inspect the condition of the socket if you want the bulb to last. I suppose it's also possible that if you have bad power in general from some other problem in the house wiring that it would cause the same issues.

as far as brands, I am also having good luck with the commercial electric products from home depot. The color of the twisted tube ones is not that different from an incandescent, slightly whiter, but not obviously blue. I prefer this to the greyish/blueish white that passes for some daylight color in some brands. Though some folks around here love it, try 1 before you buy a whole bunch or you might find you hate the thing so much you'll throw $50 worth of them away rather than endure it /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif The other thing I like about the CE brand is that they really are instant on, they are dimmer when they turn on, but there is no flicker or pause at all, they just come on, someone turning on your lights wouldn't even necessarily notice that you're using florescent bulbs. Many other brands, sylvania, lights of america and especially GE all have a heartbeat between turning on the switch and coming on and when they do it's often a flicker for a second. The dimmable ones from lights of america are not too bad about this, better than the rest but also more expensive. The reflector bulbs from Commercial Electric are much "bluer" in their coloring and take longer to warm up. But I really like the 85 watt indoor flood. I have about 10 of them in the house and they are great. Not a single DOA or one die in the last year. Though they do take a minute or more to reach full brightness. 

[/ QUOTE ]

I'll vouch for the above. We moved into a new house in Jan. The entire house is CE bulbs from home depot. Instant on, brighter in a minunte or so. Out of about 40-50 compact bulbs, 10% died within a week or two. The rest are fine.

The outdoor flood lights are also CF. You should see how dim they are when it is cold outside and they haven't warmed up yet. It's like "I'd swear I just turned the floodlights on, yet it's still dark outside!".

We also got some of the new T8 fluorescent bulbs and fixtures. They are instant on, no hum, no flicker, no cordless phone interference.... great stuff.


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## jtr1962 (Aug 28, 2004)

[ QUOTE ]
*flashfan said:*
I'm very pleased with my new 85-watt, 6,000+k bulb, it provides much more "usable" light than the 105-watt warm white CFL that I had been using. There seemed to be a little aqua tinge to the light at first, but I don't notice it anymore.


[/ QUOTE ]
It's no secret that higher color temperature lights appear brighter than lower color temperature lights which put out the same number of lumens. I had a vivid demonstration of this at a local grocery store where some of the 3000K tubes were replaced by 4100K. Both tubes output the same lumens according to spec but the 4100K tubes easily appear 50% brighter. Since these are T-8s which retain about 90% of their output even at end-of-life the brightness difference isn't caused because one tube is new and the other has dimmed with use. The difference is easily 50% and very noticeable. There is even a measure for it-scotopic lumens (as opposed to photopic lumens). 4100K has about 50% more scotopic lumens than 3000K. I believe 6000K has about 100% more. This is yet another reason to switch to high color temperature lighting-you can get equal apparent output with fewer lumens (and less power).

As for the CE daylight CFLs appearing too blue, perhaps slightly, but not objectionably so. Of course, when compared to incandescent or warm white they appear horribly blue, but tint is all relative. The problem I think is when you switch directly from incandescents or warm whites to daylight-it's a huge change, and a big shock to your eyes. If you want to get used to high color temperatures then it's best to switch a bit at a time. Maybe first start with 3500K CFLs. When those start to seem a bit yellow go to 4100K, and then to 5000K (which I consider optimal). I'll admit anything higher, like 6500K, is probably an acquired taste, but then so is incandescent, and there are circumstances where I prefer 6500K to 5000K. For example, 6500K is great in a laundry room at high lighting levels. At lower levels it creates a relaxing atmosphere.

[ QUOTE ]

I've always liked bright, white light--inherited from my father, I guess, who'll pick white fluorescent lighting over incandescent any day. 

[/ QUOTE ]
Same here. I even preferred the old school crappy cool whites running on magnetic ballasts to incandescent. I just never could stand the yellow light of incandescent. Also, for practical reasons you can't light a room brightly with incandescent without generating a lot of heat, and I like rooms very brightly lit (75 to 200 lm/ft²). My parents are the same way, although curiously both my brother and sister really don't care for fluorescent (or at least the older types). They're both too stubborn to even try the much improved newer types which I think they would like. Just mention the word fluorescent around them and a look of disgust comes on their faces.


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## evan9162 (Aug 28, 2004)

I have a daylight Commercial Electric 75W equivalent in a lamp in my living room. If I turn on the overhead lights (4 14W A-type Commercial Electric CF bulbs, warm white), the lamp does look horribly out of place. However, I also have a set of mini lanterns and cabinet lights with 1W Luxeon high dome whites in them - and the daylight CF matches the color almost exactly.


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## udaman (Aug 28, 2004)

[ QUOTE ]
*jtr1962 said:*
[ QUOTE ]
*flashfan said:*
I'm very pleased with my new 85-watt, 6,000+k bulb, it provides much more "usable" light than the 105-watt warm white CFL that I had been using. There seemed to be a little aqua tinge to the light at first, but I don't notice it anymore.


[/ QUOTE ]
It's no secret that higher color temperature lights appear brighter than lower color temperature lights which put out the same number of lumens. I had a vivid demonstration of this at a local grocery store where some of the 3000K tubes were replaced by 4100K. Both tubes output the same lumens according to spec but the 4100K tubes easily appear 50% brighter. Since these are T-8s which retain about 90% of their output even at end-of-life the brightness difference isn't caused because one tube is new and the other has dimmed with use. The difference is easily 50% and very noticeable. There is even a measure for it-scotopic lumens (as opposed to photopic lumens). 4100K has about 50% more scotopic lumens than 3000K. I believe 6000K has about 100% more. This is yet another reason to switch to high color temperature lighting-you can get equal apparent output with fewer lumens (and less power).

As for the CE daylight CFLs appearing too blue, perhaps slightly, but not objectionably so. Of course, when compared to incandescent or warm white they appear horribly blue, but tint is all relative. The problem I think is when you switch directly from incandescents or warm whites to daylight-it's a huge change, and a big shock to your eyes. If you want to get used to high color temperatures then it's best to switch a bit at a time. Maybe first start with 3500K CFLs. When those start to seem a bit yellow go to 4100K, and then to 5000K (which I consider optimal). I'll admit anything higher, like 6500K, is probably an acquired taste, but then so is incandescent, and there are circumstances where I prefer 6500K to 5000K. For example, 6500K is great in a laundry room at high lighting levels. At lower levels it creates a relaxing atmosphere.

[ QUOTE ]

I've always liked bright, white light--inherited from my father, I guess, who'll pick white fluorescent lighting over incandescent any day. 

[/ QUOTE ]
Same here. I even preferred the old school crappy cool whites running on magnetic ballasts to incandescent. I just never could stand the yellow light of incandescent. Also, for practical reasons you can't light a room brightly with incandescent without generating a lot of heat, and I like rooms very brightly lit (75 to 200 lm/ft²). My parents are the same way, although curiously both my brother and sister really don't care for fluorescent (or at least the older types). They're both too stubborn to even try the much improved newer types which I think they would like. Just mention the word fluorescent around them and a look of disgust comes on their faces. 

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, this thread is kind of interesting and it looks like jtr & I will disagree again (inside joke to jtr, Flushing 'paradise'---guess you haven't checked the demographics for So. Cal. then...pure heaven in comparison /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif ). Now I said I'm a bit of a picky person on color rendition, and that's somewhat different from perception of the color of the light coming out of the lamp.


I'll refer to jtr's post in another thread http://www.candlepowerforums.com/ubbthreads/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Board=LED&Number=624851

, from which you can click on the link for tested lamps of various FSI--- btw, CIE-70 is accepted noon sunlight measurement standard value, IIRC. FSI is a terrible indicator, IMHO! FSI of incandescent maybe a greater number (deviation from *overall averaged spectrum output*) than LED or fluoro, but I tell you HPS lamps are horrendously lousy light color for looking at or CRI, even if the FSI is just about the same as incandescent. FSI doesn't really tell you what the tint of the light is going to look like, and if it's too blue as in 'daylight' fluoro, then I won't like it, period.
Point in fact for me is that I love the feeling (Ok, getting a bit esoteric here) of a ooooh so soft down pillow, just like I crave dry, fluffy, light, soft, effervescent, champagne powder snow for skiing on---aka 'cold smoke'. I just love the over-sized globe of incandescent reading lights, because they use extra-heavy frosting on those, for super smooth/soft light output. With higher wattage reading bulbs that 'yellow' light is a bit 'brighter/whiter' than lower wattage incandescent. I like soft things, doesn't Sasha like premium soft leather to coddle her dawg's? Jessica Alba looks heavenly under nice soft lighting (harsh lighting will do in a pinch however) ;-)

It maybe 'acquired taste'; but I have no need to acquire a liking for adjusting to light that does not render colors accurately. Rendering colors accurately is something different from outright color of the lamp. Being able to read text from a book or magazine is also different. That MicroSun color adjusted metal halide bulb is 'white' and you can read lots of literature about how it's used in libraries and blah, blah, blah about how it's better on the eyes for reading. NONSENSE!(it is still impressive and superior compared to incandescent or fluoro alone) Even with a frosted envelope on the metal halide bulb, it exhibits classic contrast, harsh glare of an arc light. In this lamp, put in as a replacement for the 2 25w incandescents, which are only good for weak output, instant-on uses; 2 13w CE warm white CFL and then you reduce the glare, and get more pleasing colors on magazines and text is contrasty but not too much for easier reading---far less fatiguing on my eyes, and I'll bet anyone else's eyes...umm, maybe not jtr though ;-) /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/poke2.gif. The frosted MicroSun metal halide bulb is less harsh than an improperly aimed, bluish auto HID, but glare is present to small degree none the less(note, if anyone has the money to spend on such a high-end light, Microsun has 30day satisfaction money back guarantee). With plain old 'cool white' fluoro the glare is again there, compared to the CE CFL mini-spiral warm white. The CE warm white is actually a bit more 'light' yellow compared to an incandescent's more orange-yellow light. But while the warm white CE CFL have less glare than a 'cool white' version from other manufacturers, it's still more glare than a soft white incandescent. I hate harsh, contrasty light...except maybe when it could be said to enhance visibility on the roadways with auto HID. And BTW, the standard auto HID's, as coming from the auto manufacturer, have very high values for DOT standards of what a 'white' light is measured by. So why do they appear have such blue color? Because as a by product of the arc lamp output, which is predominantly white, there is a subcomponent in the blue spectrum that your eyes notice more than laboratory instruments do. CE makes these goofy looking plastic covered CFL that look something like a traditionally shaped incandescent bulb, and because of the plastic cover, they exhibit less glare than the bare mini-spiral. Even the mini-spirals when put inside a lamp that is completely enclosed by a plastic cover, the light output is slightly harsher no matter what kind of room/environment you place them in. Perhaps I am hyper sensitive, or just like premium quality light, and refuse to 'adjust' to 'acquired' tastes. When you shine a light on something, how the colors are rendered is accurately represented by the CRI, whether it be an somewhat yellow-orange source such as incandescent, or brilliant white Xenon short arc lamp used for movie theater projection, or sunlight...all have CRI of 100, meaning the colors, of objects illuminated by these light sources, are perfectly rendered. Yet looking at the color of light itself, and how much glare each produces can be quite different at different story. 

I have shoplights with standard 40w T12 Philips 'cool white' and 'warm white' tubes in them. I shouldn't have bought the warm white tubes recently, because I forgot how horribly orange the color is, just awful. Putting the warm white in next to the cool white, I dunno, but my brain function does not perceive the same lack of output from the warm white light as stated above in jtr's post. The output is the same rated 3,300 lumens as the equally inexpensive 'cool white'. Philips has some more expensive 'daylight' tubes but check the output and it's severely reduced to around. 2,200lm. Oh heck, I don't like the color of any of these standard 40w 48in long tubes. But then I have a special set of higher output smaller diameter DuroTest Vitalite tubes. These output over 4,000 lumens each, and are the full spectrum type. And while the light is still of the 'fluorescent' cast, they are by far the best. And yes I can tell, I also notice that extra output compared to either cool or warm standard 40w 48in tubes.

Another thing I notice about all fluor tech, is the the quality of the ballast will determine greatly how long the bulb/tube will last. Also how badly/rapidly the lumen output will deteriorate, and cause 'blackened' ends before failure occurs. Poor quality ballasts-operation will kill the inexpensive 40w tubes like you would not believe; so we probably have the same problem with low quality ballasts in CFL as well. Whereas the DuroTest, very expensive indeed, Vitalite tubes I have will take a little more abuse from crappy ballasts. They will last longer, and maintain lumen output better over the life of the lamp. I should accept a certain number of DOA fluoro, why? Why don't they build some that cost more, but use better quality components that aren't so damned finicky? Why should I have to put up with the inconvenience of returning them, regardless of the warranty. I don't need a warranty for an incandescent bulb, you just buy it, put it in and it works! KISS (keep it simple stupid). Fluoros still have a way to go, IMHO; not as reliable and mature a technology as the far simpler incandescent. That being said, expensive full spectrum fluoro and the CE warm whites are acceptable compromises in that they do save energy and generate much less heat per given wattage rating. And if money is no object, the MicroSun lamps are quite nice. But the other harsh/glare fluoro warm/cool/daylights should be kept outside with the auto HID's, 'really white' LED flashlights, and other arc lamps---where they belong!

We can go on and on about temperature values, like your computer monitor is calibrated for a certain temperature. Umm, while the Windows standard is somewhat 'bluer' at 6500k, and is somewhat of a de facto standard now, old Mac monitor standards used 5000k. I happen to find the more contrasty 6500k alright for my monitor, as it makes color more vibrant on the lower level outputs of the LCD when watching DVD's. But we can whip out our expensive GetragMacBeth Color checker charts that professional photographers and printers use; and see that for all of these light sources, colors can be far from idea. Accurate rendition of colors in a captured image is also equally important to digital video/movie production. Calibrated monitors, cameras and the equipment needed to match a known reference, are quite expensive. But even here, we see that some people have no taste, heh /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/nana.gif 

Last year I went to a Los Angeles, High-Definition movie festival. And last year I saw in one day, at the same theater complex on the 4th of July, the digitally projected Terminator 3, and 35mm film version; the 35mm version of Matrix Reloaded, and the IMAX 70mm version, digitally re-mastered intermediary conversion process. And the winner was...35mm Terminator 3 for accurate color rendition and subtle shadow and highlight details not seen in the others. The big loser? Digital T3. While the digital version was quite sharp, the contrast levels were quite bad, dropped shadow detail, blown highlights...and for my sensitive eyes, atrocious exaggerated colors. But then I saw the same thing happen with commercials for ESPN World Cup soccer in HDTV before the screening of T3, same thing for the High-Def movie festival I went to, same thing with the first major movie captured and projected digitally---Star Wars Epi II. For whatever reason, the digital cameras do not currently (as opposed to technically capable) capture colors as well as film can... yet. I practically poked my eyes, pulled my hair out...yuck. Excessively overly saturated colors, that wow! some people for the vibrancy factor. But...a stop sign in T3 that should have been a nice deep medium red, came out like almost hot pink! Nice deep blue colors come out as blindingly vibrant (so exaggerated you know that they don't look like that in real life) and much lighter in tone/hue.

I could go on and on debating with jtr and others about more technical aspects of light perception as even the professionals debate these issues. In the end however, I guess I'm just a little bit of a color accuracy freak! I love smoooth/even, soft, glare free lighting. So others are content to adjust to harsher 'daylight' colored blue, fluor...umm, maybe they had better not wear that blue shirt indoors and then walk out into the true 'daylight' sun. Cause that blue shirt as perceived under that 'daylight' fluoro, might 'miraculously' change to an aqua/turquoise/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/faint.gif
/end rant.


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## jtr1962 (Aug 28, 2004)

I fully agree, udaman, about having smooth, glare-free lighting which renders colors well. And I also agree that "daylight" fluorescents are far from ideal for that-I simply mentioned them as useful for creating moods (in much the same way lighting designers claim to use yellow light to create moods). For most lighting I much prefer 5000K over 6500K. And to make it as even as possible, I greatly prefer linear tubes to CFLs. While CFLs aren't quite a point source like an incandescent, they come close enough so as to create excessive shadows and glare (which is yet another reason I dislike incandescents). I probably wouldn't like the Microsun, either. It's a point source, which is fine if you need to focus it into a beam, but not for general lighting. Also, at 3300K to 3400K it's somewhat "warm" for my tastes.

Furthermore, I also agree about FSI by itself being a poor measure of a light's quality, but then again so is CRI by itself. Incandescent has a CRI of 100 yet I find colors simply don't look natural under it. For starters deep blues and purples look almost black, and reds look too saturated as in the digital T3 rendition you mentioned. Worst of all, white looks yellow. You really need to look at both measures to get useful information. In the example you cited, HPS and incandescent both have similar FSI's, but HPS is obviously a much poorer light source. I hate the HPS streetlights even more than I hate incandescent. I don't know why the city hasn't started replacing them with metal halide now that it has similar efficiency to HPS. Anyway, I think it's best to only compare FSI's for light sources with a similar CRI.

CFL technology does have a way to go yet, but I see the main problem being in ballast reliability. There is no good reason to accept a certain percentage of early failures. The ballast should be able to deal with dirty power to some extent. As for the tubes themselves, we can do almost anything we want with phosphors. The better the color rendition, though, the worse the efficiency usually is. Current mass-produced designs strike a balance between efficiency and good color rendition. As I mentioned in many threads, I see CFLs as a half-way house anyway, a quick and dirty incandescent replacement of sorts. If you want to go fluorescent then go all the way and get linear tubes. You get greater efficiency, more even lighting, more choice, longer lifetime, and usually a much better ballast.

As to your statements on color accuracy, I tend to think that overall full-spectrum fluorescents of around 5000K are better than any other artificial light source except a Xenon arc lamp. Maybe my eyes are a little different-see this thread. Or perhaps the problems you experience with fluorescent "glare" are caused by flickering magnetic ballasts and/or poor color rendering (both of which incidentally annoy me also). Most "standard" fluoro tubes leave a lot to be desired, anyway, even the newer T-8 triphosphor ones. Be aware that the aqua t-shirt you mentioned will suddenly turn yellow-green when put under your over-sized globe of incandescent reading light. If you're looking for color accuracy then incandescent just doesn't cut it, although since no wavelengths are missing it is fairly easy to "correct" it to whatever color temp you want. And to make it worse a deep purple will look close to black. While I'm also sensitive to color rendition like you, I'm even more sensitive to color temperature. This may explain why given a choice between incandescents and even crappy cool whites, I'll choose the cool whites. I _really_ notice when blue is underrepresented in the spectrum. For whatever reason I can't auto color balance at color temperatures under about 3500K, and end up with terrible headaches. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/drunk.gif This is likely because my brain needs to make more of an adjust since I see blues more than most people. For a good example of what I go through, try to let your eyes auto color balance under candlelight (1500K). They can't, which is why candlelight always looks strongly yellow. Well, this is how bad regular incandescents look to me. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smoker5.gif

As for the Flushing/So. Cal thing, I tend to think more than demographics are involved here. I probably find a greater percentage of what is pleasing to me in Flushing as opposed to So. Cal, but then again I could be wrong. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif


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## James S (Aug 29, 2004)

For a work bench area I prefer the whiter light, and a lot more of it.

If you're asking me /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif Then I think that warmer light is better in lower light situations. If I have a single light on in the room just for navigating around or doing non-closup work tasks then the warmer is better. I think the "whiter" bluer lights look grey and washed out unless you have a lot more of it.

As a point source, the whiter lights look brighter while looking at the light, but not when working under it. 

For example, if you have a single can in your hallway, you'll gain little by putting an expensive full spectrum white bulb in it. I have a hallway with one, and it looks dim and dreary and grey in there when it's on. But if you have several cans or lamps and need to generate a lot of light, then the same lamp will be great.

YMMV as per usual /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Also, it's very interesting what the environment will do to the light color. For example the house here has a lot of light yellow walls. A very grey white light in the hallway where it reflect all the yellow of the walls is almost indistinguishable from an incandescent. The same light in my daughters room which is a light blue/green color is simply awful.


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## jtr1962 (Aug 30, 2004)

Actually, there is a physiological basis for what you're describing. The Kruithof curve shows the range of color temperatures seen as "pleasing" versus the illuminance. At higher illuminance levels higher color temperature is preferred and vice versa. This curve doesn't show what is necessarily what is best for visibility, but rather what is aesthetically pleasing to most people. My own preferences tend to fall outside the curve at the lower end as the preferred color temperature moves towards 2000K, but at the illuminance levels I typically prefer, it is dead on. Note the much wider range of color temperatures which are considered "acceptable" as illuminance increases. At typical home lighting levels of, say, 200 lux, anything from about 2700K to 4100K is considered pleasing. I find it curious why CFL designers choose the low end of the curve, however. Something like 3500K would still be pleasing to nearly everyone, and acceptable even to someone like myself. The fact that GE's whiter Reveal bulbs are preferred by over 80% again shows that 3500K would be a much better compromise than 2700K to 3000K, which is simply too yellow for many people. It could even be marketed on that basis-"whiter than an incandescent, shows true colors better".

As for myself, I generally prefer indoors to be closer to maybe 1000 lux, which means "whiter" light. My own 5000K preference falls square in the middle of acceptable values, although I also prefer it at lower levels as well. That might be simply because seeing and contrast are better with "bluer" light at low light levels, and I therefore despise any light I can't see well under regardless of how "pleasing" it may be. Those night light bulbs are the worst. The 1W Q-bin luxeon I have on my workroom ceiling as a "night light" provides seemingly 5 times the useable light that a 7 watt night light bulb does, even though both are a similar amount of lumens (~35 for the luxeon and ~28 for the incandescent).


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## DLG (Sep 1, 2004)

I've read in this thread and others about Commercial Electric bulbs at Home Depot.

I just checked homedepot.com and the only CFLs I found there were Phillips (mostly) and 1 from TCP.

Visited a local Home Depot yesterday and found no bulbs labeled Commercial Electric.

Q: where/what are these Commercial Electric bulbs?


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## jtr1962 (Sep 1, 2004)

[ QUOTE ]
Visited a local Home Depot yesterday and found no bulbs labeled Commercial Electric.

Q: where/what are these Commercial Electric bulbs?

[/ QUOTE ]
I've seen them in every Home Depot I've shopped at, at least in the NY metropolitan area. Where are you located? That might explain why you haven't seen them.


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## evan9162 (Sep 1, 2004)

I've never seen CE bulbs on HomeDepot.com either - but they're at both HD's I've been to here (Boise, ID)


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## DLG (Sep 1, 2004)

I'm in the greater Chicagoland area.


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## DLG (Sep 1, 2004)

Oh and once again, they're not on home depot's web site either. At least not the one I see.


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## DLG (Sep 3, 2004)

Visted a new Fry's store in the Chicago burbs (Downers Grove) yesterday. Huge store with everything from electronic component parts to major appliances, PC motherboards, test equipment and lots of other stuff under one roof.

Saw some CFL globes and read the packaging looking for color temp. Found "soft white" with I assume means something in the <4000K range and none other. Was looking for some something in the 5000K range. Oh well. The store was interesting and worth the visit.


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## jtr1962 (Sep 3, 2004)

Soft white usually means 2700K or 3000K. There have been times where some off-brand CFLs were marked as warm-white, but actually turned out to be daylight. This is generally the exception rather than the rule.

You hit upon one of my pet peeves, and that's one reason I wish they had standardized on 3500K instead of 2700K/3000K. While 3500K is still warmish, it would be acceptable to the majority while still also being tolerable (barely) to those like you and me who prefer higher color temps. Yes, it is close to impossible to find anything other than soft/warm white CFLs in most retail stores, and if you do, they're usually the 6500K daylight which is often derided as being too bluish (some of the cheaper ones actually _are_ as they come in around 7500K to 8000K!). The Commercial Electric 6500K daylight does indeed look like 6500K to me, but even here if operated in the vicinity of incandescents or WW CFLs it will look horribly bluish. As for anything else, 3500K, 4100K or 5000K just don't seem to be sold in anything other than lighting stores where they charge a pretty penny for them. Best bet is online-you can find all types of CFLs, and many are available in 2700K, 3000K, 3500K, 4100K, 5000K, and 6500K. 5000K full-spectrum (meaning a CRI over 90) is a bit harder to find online, and a bit more pricey, but the vastly improved color rendition over standard CFLs is worth it.


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## udaman (Sep 9, 2004)

*Re: ? from a CFL newbie, nother CFL bites the dust*

Oops, should have looked on the Vitalite Plus tubes to compare with standard tubes, still lumens output on the T-10 is slightly higher and CRI is 91, while best of the fluorescent being full spectrum, but still that classic 'fluorescent cast' tone of light. Even within so-called full spectrum there is noticeable variation in the color of the light they emit...at least to my sensitive eyes /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif I prefer the subtle, or not so subtle difference from a decent white metal halide HID or better than CRI of 85, even with more intense shadows the glaring light creates, as compare to high intensity CFL's glare.

So I was in Wally World over the weekend looking at various CFL's. GE branded spiral CFL made in China with rated 8,000hr lifespan, was it 5 or 7yrs(it depends on how many hr/day they use to calculate), LOL. Then I see identical wattage, but only 3yr rated lifespan...otherwise exactly identical physically in every way. So what is the difference inside the ballast? Then we have 3 straight tubes, sort of 2 pairs of glass tubes joined at right angles at the top of the bulb with the ends going into the base, with 3 of these sets in triangular setup in the base. These are rated for longest life of 15,000hrs, 12yrs?, and are made in Hungary! The other common type of CFL utilize 3 set of narrow U-shaped tubes---Philips brand makes this type. One last type I found is the Lights of America, larger swirl (and made in USA, but I don't trust any LOA lights anymore after too many problems with them). A difficult to find LOA CFL using what LOA calls 'Fluorex' technology for 'daylight' output. LOA 1st introduced the 'Fluorex' technology which seems to be a bit of marketing hype with claims of higher lumens/per watt, in the outdoor area lights. Not as bad in the blue light as 'cool white' fluorescent, but still not as correct in color rendering as full-spectrum.

But what makes for a CFL that lasts 3yr or 12yr? Hmm, and can you really believe these claims for long life, which is part of the selling point on the CFL. I submit this example here, a Commercial Electric warm white 23w CFL bought at Home Depot, made in China with 8,000hr average rated life. Somehow, I don't seem to be very lucky with averages, I suppose. For here in the rather mild climate near the ocean, in sunny So. Cal. I have had experience with both Philips 23w CFL 3 U-shaped tubes fail in less than 2yrs of use in an outdoor light fixture...one mounted next to the entry door of a home. While in a typical incandescent light that does have little in the way of ventilation, run only at night where the ambient temperatures range from 28F to maybe 90F on a rare early evening during a heatwave; these CFL are not subjected to extremes of temperature variations. Yet they don't last anywhere near the claimed rated life, why? Is it because they use inferior quality components in the ballast design, or is the CFL ballast design inherently fragile? Could not more durable parts be used without doubling the price of these CFL? Economy of scale it would seem. Using more durable and expensive parts would mean the per until cost would edge over $10, and sales would probably suffer. Yet if these CFL fail in less than 1/3 of the rated life on a regular basis, they actually cost 3 times as much. This particular door light fixture has a base up mounting.





I actually saw this CFL fail. Running perfectly, then all of a sudden it quickly died...not as fast an incandescent filament breaking, but fast none the less.../ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eeew.gif the smell of burning/melting plastic components and ballast parts. I am not 100% sure, but this CE CFL in the picture is actually far less than 1yr old, and run only at night time, so figure maybe around 3,000 hrs maximum. I suppose I could try and slice open the ballast if anyone is interested in seeing the fried inside? But I just toss them in the trash, and buy another to replace. One thing I have noticed at Home Depot is that they sometimes have 4 or 6 packs of the 60w equivalent 13w CE CFL. Something like $10 for the package of 4, whereas in singles they cost $5ea. So a good portion of the cost of these must be in the tamper proof plastic packaging. But there seems to be a huge profit margin built into selling these bulbs as singles. That being the case, why can't they put out a 4 pack with more durable parts? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif

Yeah, and jtr....'six degrees of separation'? Now I thought I was the OT kid, but you've gone from drifting OT in the post in the thread on that 'other site', to OT here in this thread, and then drifting again OT on that issue...which no one else here has any idea what we're talking about! So I guess my response is to say that over the weekend So. Cal. had typical summer heat wave with high pressure dome causing offshore wind-flow such that when I went to get weekend specials Dim Sum 22 miles east of dtwn LA, it was very hot, yet by 1PM when I stopped by the other Dim Sum restaurant I go to in Santa Monica close to the beach, I was amazed that it was even hotter there...but that is not what was 'scorching hot'...getting back to our OT 'heavenly' subject which is better addressed on the weather thread started by Occ1&2 on the 'other' site. How many degrees of separation are we up to then? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif


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