# How do XML's work in a XRE reflector (emitter swap upgrade) ??



## EngrPaul (May 10, 2011)

Inquiring minds want to know. After a word search I didn't find an answer.

Do you have any experiences to share of how the beam worked after the swap?

I want to know before I go investing in XML's.

Thanks in advance.


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## Microa (May 10, 2011)

I have no experience in reflector but optical lens. The diameter of the XRE's len is 6.8mm just simply enlarge the hole of the optics to 7mm. The optics can sit on the MCPCB covering the whole XML. The height of the plan of the die is almost the same under this arrangement. For those lens designed directly sit on the XRE, I felt that it is workable to modify for XML.


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## gunga (May 10, 2011)

I've modded a d- mini ex and mrv. Both used xr-e reflectors. The beam was generally more floody but very nice!


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## NJUNJO (May 11, 2011)

I'm going to replace/upgrade my Fenix LD20 XR-E Q5 with XM-L 3000K T3. 
Head of the lamp needs some modification because XR-E is cca 2 mm higher.
Lens diameter of XR-E is cca 1mm larger.

In day or two I will order few xm-ls. I hope that modification will be done in 2 weeks.
If u can wait to see result, then wait.


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## EngrPaul (May 11, 2011)

I can wait. I was going to do some modding but it looks like I have to put it off for a little while. I'm sure others will benefit from your report


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## bshanahan14rulz (May 11, 2011)

also interested, specifically the generic p60 reflectors that work well with xr.


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## LilKevin715 (May 11, 2011)

I did a comparison a few months back before the forum crash. 
http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?308972-XM-L-P60-Reflectors

The larger sized pics aren't linked anymore, but I did provide my personal insight.


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## bshanahan14rulz (May 12, 2011)

nice pics, lilkevin! Where did you source your xp-g reflectors, do you remember?


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## LilKevin715 (May 13, 2011)

I got the XP-G OP reflector here. Note the opening for the emitter was widened obviously. There is also a SMO version from Dereelight that you can get from here. The solarforce XP-G SMO reflector is a little bit deeper for slightly more throw & higher lux. Unfortunately I haven't found them separate for purchase anywhere; I had to buy a solarforce xp-g module to get the reflector. I haven't tried out the new solarforce XM-L modules with the revised SMO reflector, I'll update the thread with new beamshots when I have some free time.


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## Brian10962001 (May 16, 2011)

I swapped a Solarforce R2 OP reflector directly over to an Ultrafire XM-L drop in. TREMENDOUS flood, a general improvement in color and cleaned the beam up very well. The XPG and the XML in the smooth reflector was strange, it was a bit blue and seemed to have a different tint in the middle, almost a cree ring, but they have no ring. Anyways the orange peel XRE reflector helped a ton, it's my hands down favorite of all drop ins!


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## bshanahan14rulz (May 16, 2011)

Thanks, Kevin and Brian, for your inputs. For an XM-L, I'm definitely going for a smooth transition from spot to flood, instead of getting the throwiest xm-l p60 I can. I already have a few solarforce reflectors, one at least.


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## EngrPaul (Jun 10, 2011)

I have some XML's on the way, and have shifted my focus to the optimum way to approach the upgrade.

I'm looking at how the emitters compare. I've downloaded 3D models from Cree. in the picture below, The old XR-E is transparent purple, the new XM-L is in green.

If the opening in the existing reflector was fitting tight on the XR-E metal ring, the model shows it may interfere with the very corners of the XM-L (what you see as brightest green beyond the XR-E ring). So the reflector would smash the corners of the LED emitter board when the bezel is tightened, and probably go off-center in the process.

The two logical choices would be to increase the diameter of the reflector to the diagonal distance of the XM-L board (7.07mm), or to shave the four corners of the emitter to match the XR-E ring diameter (6.8mm).

After removing this interference, it gets the reflector bottom down to the board the XM-L is soldered to. Assuming the domes should be co-spherical for nearly equivalent focus, it becomes obvious to me that an unmodified reflector will not reach the same focal point. If the reflector was originally sitting on the XR-E board, then 0.4 mm would need to be removed from the back side of the reflector to reach the top surface of the board the XM-L is soldered to. I get this from the measurement on the models, from the bottom of the XM-L solder pad to the top of the XR-E emitter board.

Depending on the reflector, removing 0.4mm may or may not increase the diameter of the hole for the emitter.

I don't want to lose focus. The lights should maintain a good hotspot with increased spill, and not be pure flood. That's why I'm concerned about what it takes to get the emitters to the same focal point.
Any comments? Thanks in advance.


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## StefanFS (Jun 10, 2011)

The XM-L sits a bit below the rim of the reflector opening in my modded former XR-E lights, eg. MRV or Tiablo A9. I use a spacer made from soft thin rubber to get the right focus and to stop debris entering the reflector.


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## EngrPaul (Jun 10, 2011)

Thanks Stefan, I can see how the difference in overall emitter height off of the heat sink surface could also be an issue.

I'm hoping that the 14mm boards I bought them on are thicker than the stock boards for the XR-E's. If not, I might have to go looking for some copper discs.


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## Microa (Jun 10, 2011)

Excuse me for my stupid question. Where is the focus of the reflector at the LED? I thought that it should be on the surface plan of the die just a little bit above the substrate. The XRE's data sheet does not show the thickness of the substrate. XML is 0.73mm. The 0.4mm which you want to remove is the difference of the thickness of the substrates?


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## EngrPaul (Jun 10, 2011)

You've got a point. The top of the emitter surface is some distance above the emitter board. Maybe they are quite different for the two emitters, especially since the dome of the XR-E is so far above the board.

The 3D models show a spherical dome, I don't know if that's really the case. I am not versed in optics, and I hope somebody can chime in as to whether my "co-spherical" assumption is valid for matching focal points. 

I'm surprised that some people swap the emitter and get a satisfactory result. I just wonder if the focus could be better with some adjustments.


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## Microa (Jun 10, 2011)

I totally agree with you. In case of optical lens, well focused hot spot is a bright image of the square die not a circle. You can see the shadows of three connecting wires to the dies. Fine adjustment is essential.


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## NJUNJO (Jun 11, 2011)

LEDs arrived, updated LD20 has been used regularly for 10 days.
As someone stated before me, *HUGE FLOOD*. 

1. column: Stock LD20 with XR-E Q5
2. column: LD20 with XM-L; part of the head where reflector is, is few mm unscrewed. 
Now the top of LED lens is a bit below the bottom of reflector
3. column: LD20 with XM-L; head screwed all the way

LOW (F2.8, 1/10s, ISO-200)


 

 



MEDIUM (F2.8, 1/10s, ISO-200)


 

 



HIGH (F2.8, 1/10s, ISO-200)


 

 



TURBO (F2.8, 1/10s, ISO-200)


 

 



TURBO (F2.8, 1/15s, ISO-200)


 

 





Outdoor. The wall on the left is cca 20m and colored house is cca 60m away.




Control



Turbo (F2.8, 2s, ISO-200)


 

 



Control



Turbo (F2.8, 2s, ISO-200)


 

 


On the sidewall u can see how light is spread or not (not with XR-E).
Big spill on the last picture where bottom of reflector is 2mm below the top 
line of XM-L lens.


Conclusion. 
XR-E trows farther. XM-L lots of spill. 
If u want a bit more throw with XM-L in XR-E reflector u need to position LED lens under the bottom line of reflector.

bonus 
Fenix LD20 head disassembled.


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## EngrPaul (Jun 12, 2011)

Thanks NJUNJO for your actual experience. I need to pick a host that has adjustability to the reflector position like you did.


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## EngrPaul (Jun 18, 2011)

I did a Raidfire Spear, and I'm very pleased with the beam without modifying the reflector. The hole at the bottom was sufficient size and the reflector could go down along-side the emitter's green board a little. Hopefully that holds true for the other lights I mod over the next week or so.


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