# surefire m3 Parasitic drain??



## ghosthound (Aug 13, 2009)

I thought that incans didnt suffer from this. If i leave in a set of cr123 batteries, even with the tail cap locked out, (not all the way, enough that pressing the button wont turn on the ligh) for over a week, when i go to use it, the batteries will be weak if not dead. Im using batteries i got from botach if that matters. 

this is probably the main reason im selling it... I can't afford to constantly replace the batteries and rechargeables seem too over my head.


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## mdocod (Aug 14, 2009)

Hi ghosthound,

I think it's worth further investigation as the M3 is such a wonderful light to own, and you have a lot of options to try out.

Don't let the world of li-ion rechargeable cells scare you off too much. Spend some time doing some reading and you'll pick it up.

As a booster for confidence in moving to rechargeable cells; li-ion is actually safer than the primary cells that the light calls for!

off-brand cells often have problems with rapid self-discharge once used partially, some just have awful true capacity and aren't suitable for use in tactical lights, this could be the problem. what brand of cells did you get from there?

Just an FYI: 
A pair of quality protected 17500 cells from AW with a quality charger (Pila IBC is recommended) will operate as a direct replacement for the 3 CR123s in there for running the MN10 bulb. (not the MN11). You can also choose from some bulbs from LumensFactory to run on those cells in that light if you want a few more lumens to throw around. 

-Eric


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## Outdoors Fanatic (Aug 14, 2009)

Try using brand name batteries then come back here...


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## [email protected] (Aug 14, 2009)

Mayby he's got a M3D if there ever was one...


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## ghosthound (Aug 14, 2009)

its an M3T so im using the MN15 bulb... 

im currently using ultralast batteries. 

how much of an investment are the rechargeables?


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## paintballdad (Aug 14, 2009)

The problem might be the batteries that you are currently using. They are known to have less than full capacity right out of the package. Try picking up a set of Surefire batteries and check if the problems persists. Lowe's has the Surefire CR123s for $5/pack of 2.


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## leukos (Aug 14, 2009)

You'll need two of these: http://www.lighthound.com/AW-17500-Protected-Rechargeable-Lithium-Battery_p_99.html

And one of these: http://www.lighthound.com/Ultrafire...3-37-volt-Lithium-Battery-Charger_p_2279.html 

And you won't ever need to look back! :thumbsup:


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## Patriot (Aug 14, 2009)

ghosthound said:


> im currently using ultralast batteries.





When I used to buy from botach, they always sold name brand batteries like Duracell, Energizer and Sanyo. Ultralast sounds like a junk generic to me.

Unless you have some particular reason to use primaries, do like leukos said and join the world of high quality power.


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## ghosthound (Aug 15, 2009)

leukos said:


> You'll need two of these: http://www.lighthound.com/AW-17500-Protected-Rechargeable-Lithium-Battery_p_99.html
> 
> And one of these: http://www.lighthound.com/Ultrafire...3-37-volt-Lithium-Battery-Charger_p_2279.html
> 
> And you won't ever need to look back! :thumbsup:



would i need the spacer they recommend?

would i also need a battery tester?

Do they have chargers that better inform you of the state of the battery?

i use to be into RC cars and i remember they had some ridiculously fancy chargers.... I wouldnt mind investing in something of that caliber if it meant "better" charging for the batteries... 

1 last question... should i buy extra sets to keep around? or what kind of run time can i expect with these batteries. 

Thanks for your help guys! I would have been very sad to sell the M3T but this gives me hope!


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## Monocrom (Aug 15, 2009)

ghosthound said:


> I thought that incans didn't suffer from this. If I leave in a set of CR123 batteries, even with the tailcap locked out, (not all the way, enough that pressing the button won't turn on the light) for over a week, when I go to use it, the batteries will be weak if not dead. I'm using batteries I got from botach if that matters.


 
Oh yeah, it makes a difference! A huge difference! The difference between a Corvette vs. a Go-cart. Listen to Eric. (The initial investment might seem a bit high, but the rechargeable cells will pay for themselves in short order. Especially if you use your M3T often).

If you want very bright output, swap out the stock Surefire lamp with one from Lumens Factory that is tailor made for use with two 17500 cells. 

Lighthound.com has a good selection of Lumens factory lamps. If you want bright, check out the HO-M3T.

*EDIT:*

_Wrong Lumens factory lamp originally mentioned as EO-M3T for use with 17500 cells._


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## rx78gp02 (Aug 15, 2009)

ghosthound said:


> would i need the spacer they recommend?
> 
> would i also need a battery tester?
> 
> ...



you sound a lot like me. 
i too used to be into r/c cars. lol
but on a serious note, my first light was a surefire m3t as well.
its a great starter light and you'll be very fond of it.
the 2 17500 li-ions is a great starter and the charger reccommended is a great combo. i use the same combo with great results. I do reccomend getting some extra cells for spares if an emergency should occur.
You'll eventually want an led emitter if your annoyed at the "parasitic drain", which would probably lead you to getting the smaller m3 head to mate the body with.
wish yah the best of luck.
oh and 2 is 1, 1 is none.


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## leukos (Aug 15, 2009)

ghosthound said:


> would i need the spacer they recommend?
> 
> would i also need a battery tester?
> 
> ...


 

No, you don't need the spacer if you use that charger. The bays are spring loaded and will fit the 17500 batteries just fine.

You really don't need a battery tester for Li-ions. Just checking the voltage with a DMM will tell you all you need to know about an Li-ion. 

If you have a background in RC, then you could certainly appreciate a better charger. The one linked is as simple as it gets, but a lot of CPFers use it and like it. There are many threads in the "Flashlight electronics-batteries included" section of this forum about various RC chargers that could work for you. 

Buy extras? Sure, as many as you think you might use in a night. These Li-ions do not have as much capacity as primaries, so you will probably get about 45 minutes runtime if you are running the light constantly with the MN15 (maybe 50-60 minutes intermittently). However, these Li-ions outperform primaries because the voltage does not sag as much, so the lamp stays brighter for longer. You will probably only notice dimming of the light the last 2 minutes before the low voltage protection circuit kicks in. I think you will find Li-ions a 100% improvement over primaries for regular use. 

The other thing to clarify is that the 17500 size should not be used with the MN16, it pulls too much power. If you want a high output lamp for use with these Li-ions, use the EO-M3T as previously suggested: http://www.lighthound.com/Lumens-Fa...ns-Lamp-Assembly-for-SureFire-M3T_p_1011.html


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## Outdoors Fanatic (Aug 15, 2009)

You can also use 3x 16340 IMR with the HO-M6R, this will give the best performance for 15 minutes of awesomeness.


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## mdocod (Aug 15, 2009)

Outdoors Fanatic said:


> You can also use 3x 16340 IMR with the HO-M6R, this will give the best performance for 15 minutes of awesomeness.



Used that configuration the other night to investigate a bump-in-the-night and it's definitely one of my favorite high performance configurations. 

----------------

ghosthound,

I would recommend against the WF-139, do a search for YOHO-122 and read up on how to get one (batterystation might still have some on clearance). It would be a good alternative in a similar price bracket. The WF-139 has come in at least 3-4 revisisions, each revision broke the rules of li-ion charging in at least one way, while most of them broke the rules in several ways. If you are willing to plop a few bucks, the Pila IBC I mentioned is the only consumer friendly charger for the charging of loose li-ion cells that I am aware of that uses a TRUE proper charge method. The YOHO-122 is close, plenty good, the old DSD chargers are functional but slow. Some of the revisions of the WF-139 are just plain dangerous IMO. There are numerous hobby style chargers that are geared towards RC li-ion and li-po packs that will charge your cells and give you more detailed information provided you come up with a way to "mount up" those cells in a harness or cradle of sorts to reliably connect them to the charger outputs. 

-Eric


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## leukos (Aug 15, 2009)

Pila broke rules in previous models too. I have over $160 of dead Pila 150s batteries as proof. The DSD charger cannot truly handle international voltage. All chargers manufactured in china are a trade off of price versus performance. The latest WF-139 is in my opinion one of the most user friendly of the cheapy chargers. Nothing compares with a quality RC charger, but the price can jump $100+, which is not always an easy entry point for folks new to Li-ion. And there is a learning curve with using many more advanced chargers. Newbies could still kill batteries or cause fires with RC chargers.


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## Monocrom (Aug 15, 2009)

My experience with chargers is as follows:

*DSD ~ *Junk. Absolute junk. Very low price, but once you spend your money on it; you'll end up having to buy a better charger. So you end up spending even more money anyway.

*WF-139 ~ *I bought mine last year, works well. You just have to keep in mind that it's a very basic charger, and you must keep a constant eye on it. With my job, that's not an issue. Might be an issue for others.

*Soshine chargers ~ *A couple of variations of the basic design. (Mine is the one designed to charge nearly every type of cell except RCR123s). Flimsy plastic cover. But a good charger overall. Better than the WF-139. And capable of charging four cells at once. I use it as my main charger. Other than the flimsy cover, no issues with mine. You can find it at Lighthound.com


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## Outdoors Fanatic (Aug 15, 2009)

mdocod said:


> Used that configuration the other night to investigate a bump-in-the-night and it's definitely one of my favorite high performance configurations.
> 
> ----------------
> 
> ...


I've just bought one here -->> http://www.e-lectronics.net/charger-liion-17500-18650-batteries-p-150.html


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## SilentK (Aug 15, 2009)

I also have a friend who has an M3 who has this problem quite offten. And he is using Surefire batteries. So i doubt it is the cells. And wont 17500 cells overdrive the bulb? so you will get more than 125 lumens if you are worried about it not being bright enough.


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## ghosthound (Aug 15, 2009)

ahh... okay im definitely gonna get the batteries...

Now i just gotta decide on the charger... So much to learn!!! 

Ill think about picking up the other bulb as well but the runtime is too short... Ive never used my mn16s anyway.


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## Superdave (Aug 15, 2009)

I've had the same batteries in my Z3T since June (Army issue Panasonic 123's) and never seen any loss. All my Surefire lights have primaries in them (Except my EDC) and none of them have ever had any problems. 

Bottom line, if the tailcap is locked out there is no way the light is causing the cells to discharge. It's the batteries themselves. 

If the tailcap is not locked out then you have a problem, either take apart the tailcap and clean it with DeoxIT or call Surefire and they'll take care of it.


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## mdocod (Aug 16, 2009)

Hi Monocrom, 

I absolutely agree about the DSD on international voltages, on 110V though, it has in my experience been a reasonable build that does not exceed 4.25V during charging. 

According to recent testing, the latest WF-139 can severely over-charge cells if they are above ~4.0V when inserted on the charger. While the trickle charge problem was eliminated, this new problem is even worse IMO. 

The SoShine I have personally tested and could not recommend to a friend any day. It uses a bizarre pulse charge routine that results in charge voltage spiking well over 4.3V. 

-Eric


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## Monocrom (Aug 16, 2009)

Thanks for the response. I got my WF-139 over a year ago. It does trickle charge, if not watched. I guess I was fortunate to get that particular version before Ultrafire "improved" the design.

Wasn't aware of that particular issue with the SoShine chargers. But then again, I never use my 18650s or 18500s right off the charger. They sometimes sit for hours before use. That could explain the lack of any noticeable issues on my part. (Heard way too many instances of lamps going , when rechargeables cells were used hot off the charger).

You know more about rechargeables and chargers than I do, so I guess I'll just save up for a Pila IBC. Thanks again.


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## mdocod (Aug 16, 2009)

Monocrom said:


> ... so I guess I'll just save up for a Pila IBC. Thanks again.



The YOHO is much cheaper than the Pila and not bad at all provided you don't use it to charge RCR123 size LiCo cells. (charge rate too fast).....

Worth a look if the Pila is going to be a bit too pricey. I was lucky enough to have a Pila sent to me as a gift from a CPF member, otherwise I would likely still be using various alternatives that don't stack up.


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## ghosthound (Aug 21, 2009)

cool, got all the toys in now im just playing around with the new bulb and "guilt free lumens"

for some reason, sometimes when i click the tail cap, the first time or two it doesnt turn the bulb on. what makes it even weirder is the fact that i can see the bulb barely glow as if its getting a tiny bit of power, then after the second or third tap, it light comes on in all its glory.


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## Outdoors Fanatic (Aug 21, 2009)

ghosthound said:


> cool, got all the toys in now im just playing around with the new bulb and "guilt free lumens"
> 
> for some reason, sometimes when i click the tail cap, the first time or two it doesnt turn the bulb on. what makes it even weirder is the fact that i can see the bulb barely glow as if its getting a tiny bit of power, then after the second or third tap, it light comes on in all its glory.


Are you trying to run the MN11 on rechargeables by any chance?


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## mdocod (Aug 22, 2009)

The behavior you are describing is commonly an issue when the protection circuit in the cell trips due to current rising above the maximum threshold it allows for a long enough period of time (a few milliseconds). Originally we assumed you were talking about an M3, for which I warned against using the MN11 with 17500s in my original post. Later it was revealed that the light in question is actually an M3T, so the same rule applies, except that the bulb that should not be used is the MN16, as the current draw is too high for the cells. (The MN11 and MN16 are, for all intents and purposes, the same bulb on a different tower, the MN10 and MN15 are also basically the same)

Which brand of cells and which lamp are you using?

-Eric


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## ghosthound (Aug 22, 2009)

i ended up going for the lumens factory eo-m3t (as suggested for HO) and the AW17500 cells. 

after 1 tap, the following taps will always get the light going.


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## leukos (Aug 22, 2009)

That is strange. Usually the EO-M3T fires up without having to double tap. If you get the chance, test and see if you still have to double tap when the batteries are fully charged.


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## Outdoors Fanatic (Aug 22, 2009)

The EO-M3T is also above the 17500's capacity.


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## ghosthound (Aug 22, 2009)

Outdoors Fanatic said:


> The EO-M3T is also above the 17500's capacity.




really?? i was told it would be fine!?


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## mdocod (Aug 22, 2009)

Hi ghosthound,

Sorry to say, Outdoors Fanatic is correct. I see above that monocrome suggested the EO-M3T, I'm sorry none of us caught that and corrected it as that bulb does in fact draw ~2.4A, which is over the safe limit for 17500 size lithium cobalt cells. The HO-M3T is the 2A bulb that is the maximum appropriate load for the 17500 size cell...

If you haven't done so already, click the link in the upper left of my sig line and do a little reading there, as well as reviewing the compatibility chart. The chart is missing a few modern configurations that I can't edit until I have confirmed that the forum has raised the maximum character count per post, but it contains the majority of the important stuff. 

Here's a copy/paste from that chart:

_Cell configuration: 2x17500

Bulb Options:
SF MN15: 9.5W, 151 - 94 lumen in 52 minutes
SF N2: 9.5W, 151 - 94 lumen in 52 minutes
LF HO-M3T: 15.5W, 268 - 162 lumen in 30 minutes
GE787 w/FM bi-pin>MN socket:
_
I'd suggest going ahead and using the MN15 for now with the 17500s... Down the road, if you want to run that EO-M3T you could look at ways of using larger cells, like an extension to run 17670s, or boring to run 18500s, or just sell the lamp and swap for an HO-M3T... In reality though, the difference in actual useful illumination between an MN15 and HO-M3T is not as large as it appears on paper... Remember, lumens factory is talking bulb lumens at a particular ideal voltage. SureFire is talking about average torch lumens through a discharge. 

-Eric


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## ghosthound (Aug 24, 2009)

so running the eo-m3t is bad for the batteries?


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## Monocrom (Aug 24, 2009)

My apologies for recommending the EO-M3T. Usually I'm very good at catching and correcting myself when a typo is made. And I sometimes make quite a few of them. This particular one got by me. As Eric mentioned, it should have been *H*O-M3T, instead of *E*O-M3T.

Once again, sorry for the mix-up. That was my fault.


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## mdocod (Aug 24, 2009)

ghosthound said:


> so running the eo-m3t is bad for the batteries?



Technically yes, even the HO-M3T is pushing the maximum safe limit and will wear them out more quickly than if used with a more normal drain rate (IE: MN15).. Most lithium cobalt cells have a maximum recommended safe discharge rate around 1.5-2C. For a 17500 cell, this translates to ~1.5-2A maximum safe drain rate (since they are usually right around 1AH capacity). The HO-M3T is right at ~2 amps. 

The problem with over-stressing a lico cell, is that it can lead to accelerated wear in concentrated areas of the separator materials, eventually leading to microscopic internal shorting that can quickly become large scale shorting during charging. This can lead to a thermal runaway condition that could trigger an explosion.

While I am a firm believer that all users of li-ion cells should understand that the cells are potentially dangerous, I feel that at the same time, it's just as important to know that Li-Ion has a MUCH better track record of safety than CR123 primary cells here on the forums. I feel perfectly comfortable leaving a li-ion powered light with decent quality cells in good condition in a flashlight in my Wife's purse at all times. Any cells I have that are more heavily aged I use myself but have never had an incident. 

-Eric


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## ghosthound (Aug 24, 2009)

Monocrom said:


> My apologies for recommending the EO-M3T. Usually I'm very good at catching and correcting myself when a typo is made. And I sometimes make quite a few of them. This particular one got by me. As Eric mentioned, it should have been *H*O-M3T, instead of *E*O-M3T.
> 
> Once again, sorry for the mix-up. That was my fault.



meh, its okay, i should have done my own research before biting the bullet. 

Boy when that light comes on its BRIGHT though... i guess ill just buy some more primes and use it on occasion for kicks otherwise ill just keep the mn15 in there.


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## Outdoors Fanatic (Aug 24, 2009)

ghosthound said:


> meh, its okay, i should have done my own research before biting the bullet.
> 
> Boy when that light comes on its BRIGHT though... i guess ill just buy some more primes and use it on occasion for kicks otherwise ill just keep the mn15 in there.


You can buy a Leef Body 2x18500 and 2x IMRs and run ANY 9 volts lamp assembly available for SureFire Turboheads.

Check it out: http://www.lighthound.com/LeefBody-...ry-or-3x123-Battery-HA-III-Natural_p_920.html


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## leon2245 (Sep 9, 2009)

mdocod said:


> If you are willing to plop a few bucks, the Pila IBC I mentioned is the only consumer friendly charger for the charging of loose li-ion cells that I am aware of that uses a TRUE proper charge method.


And I'm assuming even that one's not consumer friendly enough to just buy along with the batteries, without a tester (since it knows when to stop charging)? Or at least still not significantly more dangerous than primaries, considering I've never used a tester with those either?




> However, these Li-ions outperform primaries because the voltage does not sag as much, so the lamp stays brighter for longer. You will *probably only notice dimming of the light the last 2 minutes before the low voltage protection circuit kicks in.* I think you will find Li-ions a 100% improvement over primaries for regular use.


Is it O.K. to wait until I see obvious dimming before recharging the batteries, or is that cutting it too close?


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## Outdoors Fanatic (Sep 9, 2009)

leon2245 said:


> And I'm assuming even that one's not consumer friendly enough to just buy along with the batteries, without a tester (since it knows when to stop charging)? Or at least still not significantly more dangerous than primaries, considering I've never used a tester with those either?
> 
> 
> 
> Is it O.K. to wait until I see obvious dimming before recharging the batteries, or is that cutting it too close?


leon2245, check the *Yoho-122* charger out. It is even better than the Pila IBC but is much cheaper.

http://e-lectronics.net/charger-liion-17500-18650-batteries-p-150.html


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## mdocod (Sep 9, 2009)

Hi leon2245,

The Pila IBC is the type of charger that I would give as a gift to someone who I knew needed the li-ion performance but who I didn't want to burden with the need to do frequent testing to confirm that the charger is behaving itself. The YOHO-122 mentioned also seems to be quite good, though there are reports of a few "duds" out there that over-charge cells, so I would still be tempted with this charger to at least test the cells coming off of it the first few cycles just to make sure. 

-

With protected cells, under higher drain rates common with incandecent builds, you will see towards the end of the discharge things getting dimmer. Most builds will be about half as bright close to the end of the discharge as they were fresh from the charger. Ideally speaking, cycling cells to 80% depth of charge or less produces good results for cycle life/cell longevity; However, if you run it all the way down till the protection kicks in once and awhile, it's not going to be the end of the world.. Since the incandecent bulb is drawing relatively high current, there will be enough voltage sag such that the protection will trip down at ~2.5V but the cell will then rebound to >3V, which is reasonable....

The cells will last the longest if shallow cycled rather than deep cycled. Charge often, charge whenever it's convenient to do so.


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## leon2245 (Sep 10, 2009)

I'm assuming mine would be a conservative enough setup, A.W. 17500's in one of the stock S.F. 3-cell models, that I don't have to worry about tailcaps at all? I read a warning about difficulty switching loads in the compatability thread. It was the z59 & LiCo cells in particular though.


Either way that's so awesome you can just start using rechargeables in certain S.F.'s this way, with no mods or anything. Especially the same factory bulb for primaries & rechargeables. 



tHANKS!


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## leukos (Sep 10, 2009)

Outdoors Fanatic said:


> leon2245, check the *Yoho-122* charger out. It is even better than the Pila IBC but is much cheaper.


 
IMO, that YOHO charger is probably better suited for unprotected and IMR cells. They seem to get easily confused on batteries with protection circuits, especially AW's.


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## Outdoors Fanatic (Sep 10, 2009)

leukos said:


> IMO, that YOHO charger is probably better suited for unprotected and IMR cells. They seem to get easily confused on batteries with protection circuits, especially AW's.


Care to elaborate on that? I have no issues charging AW 18500 LiCo and AW 18650 2600 mAh on my YOHO.


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## leukos (Sep 10, 2009)

Sure, I have two YOHO chargers. When charging protected AW 17670's, they both tend to charge for 2 hours then the LEDs go dark. Sometimes they charge a little, sometimes not at all. These same batteries charge without issue on my other chargers. Are the protection circuits blocking the charge? Is the YOHO confused?

But, the YOHO works great for my IMR batteries, very fast and terminates very close to 4.2. I just wouldn't recommend it to a newbie as a problem free charger.


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