# P7/XM-L LED Side Emitter Lens Available?



## aae55555 (Jun 17, 2011)

Hi guys :wave:

A noob in the LED world, but doing my best to learn. Great site you guys have here.

*Here's the deal:*

I am trying to find a Side Emitter Lens for the Z-Power P7 LED. (EDIT: Or now the XM-L)

I know Carclo optics makes one for the P4 LED, but I can't find one for the P7 LED anywhere. This is the one for the P4 LED:






Would I be able to make my own one, and if so does anyone have any tips on how to?

If not, do I have any other alternatives to beam the light outwards, and not forwards? Sort of like a beacon? 

Would appreciate any advice!

Thanks! :thumbsup:


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## Harold_B (Jun 17, 2011)

*Re: P7 Z-Power LED Side Emitter Lens Available?*

What are your size and cost constraints? What are you trying to accomplish exactly?


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## aae55555 (Jun 17, 2011)

*Re: P7 Z-Power LED Side Emitter Lens Available?*

Hi, thanks for the reply!

Size = About 19mm/20mm diameter constraint for the lens/reflector itself. 
Cost = Doesn't matter really at this point.

Heatsink can sit outside the enclosure.

I am trying to replicate a halogen automotive bulb light distribution (i think) using one powerful LED. I do not want it to fire forward, but basically everywhere but forward. (all around the reflector housing)

I looked at the Luxeon Rebel LEDs, but I don't think they will be bright enough for my purpose (@ around 100lmn/350ma). I am aiming for around halogen lumens, which I think is around 800/900? So that's why i want to go for a single SSC P7.

Thanks!


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## Harold_B (Jun 17, 2011)

*Re: P7 Z-Power LED Side Emitter Lens Available?*

You are correct that Rebels would not be enough but you could use the new Luxeon S: http://www.philipslumileds.com/products/luxeon-s which has an output more inline with a 9007 bulb. When you say "I think" does that mean that you are not using it in an automotive headlight reflector but are thinking that the light distribution would be correct for the reflector you have at hand? The more you can tell about your application the more I can understand what is needed. I have designed these types of things and we have a product coming to market in Q1 of 2012 but if cost really doesn't matter I can get you something sooner!


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## aae55555 (Jun 17, 2011)

*Re: P7 Z-Power LED Side Emitter Lens Available?*

Thanks.

The colour must be cool white so those Luxeon S LEDs won't be suitable; hence the P7's.

Have you designed a side emitter?


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## Harold_B (Jun 17, 2011)

*Re: P7 Z-Power LED Side Emitter Lens Available?*

Sort of. This is a PDF overview that descibes the technology without really showing too much: http://www.lumenflow.com/VWLG%20Overview-5-2-11-u-lume.pdf

This is why I ask about your application. If you are designing a product and can use something like this then what we have coming is a new approach. If you are building a one-off for personal use then I might still be able to point you in a direction.


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## Curt R (Jun 17, 2011)

*Re: P7 Z-Power LED Side Emitter Lens Available?*

The Carclo 10267 optic works very well with the Cree XML LED. The XML
has the same power output and current handling capacity as the Seoul
P7 LED. Cutter has some U2 bin XML LEDs in stock as reported in a different
thread. 

Curt


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## aae55555 (Jun 17, 2011)

*Re: P7 Z-Power LED Side Emitter Lens Available?*



Curt R said:


> The Carclo 10267 optic works very well with the Cree XML LED. The XML
> has the same power output and current handling capacity as the Seoul
> P7 LED. Cutter has some U2 bin XML LEDs in stock as reported in a different
> thread.
> ...


 
Thanks Curt.

I'm still trying to understand what "bin" means.

But are those XML cool white (6500K)?

Sorry I'm new at this and still learning..

What driver is suitable for those XMLs?

Much thanks


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## Harold_B (Jun 17, 2011)

*Re: P7 Z-Power LED Side Emitter Lens Available?*

9007 bulbs typically 1000 lumens plus so consider losses in the optic for the XM-L which at 3.0A is rated at about 950 lumens. You will need about 1200 lumens from the source LED with optics to match a 9007. XM-L has color separation especially with optics if that matters in your application. Not trying to dismiss other suggestions just considerations to be made.


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## aae55555 (Jun 17, 2011)

*Re: P7 Z-Power LED Side Emitter Lens Available?*



Harold_B said:


> 9007 bulbs typically 1000 lumens plus so consider losses in the optic for the XM-L which at 3.0A is rated at about 950 lumens. You will need about 1200 lumens from the source LED with optics to match a 9007. XM-L has color separation especially with optics if that matters in your application. Not trying to dismiss other suggestions just considerations to be made.


 
Thanks, that's fine. Does the color separation have to do with the CRI? Is there any way I can tell the colour seperation from looking at the technical data of an LED?

For example, would the SSC P7 be better in terms of colour seperation if i made a side emitting (360 degree) optic for that?

Basically I want it to be cool white (as close as i can get to 6500K) in all areas where the optic is shining.

Thanks again guys


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## Harold_B (Jun 17, 2011)

*Re: P7 Z-Power LED Side Emitter Lens Available?*

Color separation will effect how you perceive the color temperature of the source depending on the angle from the viewing axis. It is difficult if not impossible to have a reasonable CRI with color separation since the spectrum will be different over the viewing area. The link I had posted has a chart that shows the color separation of the XM-L based on data that we gathered. I'm not aware that it is in the spec and I haven't looked in the Seoul Semiconductor spec sheets in a while but I do not recall spectrum data over viewing axis charts.

You have not said if this is a production project or a one-off or how much would be too much. You could always have a custom optic designed and fabricated to get exactly the pattern you want.


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## Curt R (Jun 17, 2011)

*Re: P7 Z-Power LED Side Emitter Lens Available?*

We have built over 600 flashlights using the Seoul P7 LED and
just completed our 200th Cree XML-T6. We drive both at 3.4/3.5 
Amps. The Difference between them as far as output is basically
the same. The XML is easier to use and gives a better beam 
pattern than the P7. Just make sure that the LED is properly heat 
sinked. The output pattern of the Carclo optic is a donut with almost
no forward light emission. 

Curt


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## aae55555 (Jun 18, 2011)

*Re: P7 Z-Power LED Side Emitter Lens Available?*

Thanks guys!

Thanks curt. Sounds right. 

Do you have any pics of the XML with side emitter optic lens on so I can visualize it?

Also regarding colour, if I want closest to 6500K colour, which bin am I looking at for the XM-L? T6?

EDIT: Ok i've read the XM-L Binning PDF Data sheet. It seems T6 is higher lumen output than T5, and colour wise, it goes 1A, 1B, 1C, etc.






So it seems I want T5 or T6, and colour 1A,1B,1C or 1D? Most likely 1C/1D as it's less blue, more white?

Sorry for being so noob again. We all start somewhere though!

Thx!


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## Al Combs (Jun 18, 2011)

Looking for something like the Solarforce LT-1? They make an XM-L P60 dropin for the L2/L2P. But it's nowhere near 1000 lumens.


:welcome:


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## PapaLumen (Jun 18, 2011)

*Re: P7 Z-Power LED Side Emitter Lens Available?*



aae55555 said:


> EDIT: Ok i've read the XM-L Binning PDF Data sheet. It seems T6 is higher lumen output than T5, and colour wise, it goes 1A, 1B, 1C, etc.
> 
> So it seems I want T5 or T6, and colour 1A,1B,1C or 1D? Most likely 1C/1D as it's less blue, more white?
> 
> ...



Yep you got it and the U2 is brighter than the T6. Personal choice regarding colour bin, 1C, 1D should be ok, cool white.


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## aae55555 (Jun 18, 2011)

*Re: P7 Z-Power LED Side Emitter Lens Available?*



Al Combs said:


> Looking for something like the Solarforce LT-1? They make an XM-L P60 dropin for the L2/L2P. But it's nowhere near 1000 lumens.
> 
> 
> :welcome:


 
Thanks for the welcome! Yeah something like that lens would be great probably!!



PapaLumen said:


> Yep you got it and the U2 is brighter than the T6. Personal choice regarding colour bin, 1C, 1D should be ok, cool white.


 
I see thanks! How about 1A, 1B? I don't understand what the chromaticity regions mean yet..

Would really like to see a side emitter lens in action though!

I'll probably order one and play around with it. I guess it would have to be modded to fit the XM-L? 

:thumbsup:


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## Al Combs (Jun 18, 2011)

Of the cool white XM-L's, 1A and 1D are the most neutral tints. Of course having said that is an invitation for others to disagree. Some people like the tint of an LED others would call too green. It is a matter of taste. More practically, what's available.

Check out DFiorentino's thread on Bin Coding. They're in color! The picture you want for the XM-L is the first one labeled, 'ANSI White (Including Cree subdivisions)'. The cool white P7 is labeled, 'SSC Z-Power (All) (Pure White)'. The dotted line in Cree's B&W Chromaticity Regions chart that is labeled BBL in DFiorentino's picture, stands for Black Body Locus. As far as LED's are concerned, the most neutral tint for a particular color temperature lies on that dotted line. Tints above the dotted line tend to be cat pee green, while those below are purplish. How far above or below and how much it bothers you is to an extent, a first hand kind of thing.

It you think of a 2,800°K regular incandescent bulb or a 3,200°K halogen, they don't look that orange in person. Probably why all the LED manufacturers include their color charts in B&W.:laughing: Well it's a good place to start anyway.


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## aae55555 (Jun 18, 2011)

Al Combs said:


> Of the cool white XM-L's, 1A and 1D are the most neutral tints. Of course having said that is an invitation for others to disagree. Some people like the tint of an LED others would call too green. It is a matter of taste. More practically, what's available.
> 
> Check out DFiorentino's thread on Bin Coding. They're in color! The picture you want for the XM-L is the first one labeled, 'ANSI White (Including Cree subdivisions)'. The cool white P7 is labeled, 'SSC Z-Power (All) (Pure White)'. The dotted line in Cree's B&W Chromaticity Regions chart that is labeled BBL in DFiorentino's picture, stands for Black Body Locus. As far as LED's are concerned, the most neutral tint for a particular color temperature lies on that dotted line. Tints above the dotted line tend to be cat pee green, while those below are purplish. How far above or below and how much it bothers you is to an extent, a first hand kind of thing.
> 
> It you think of a 2,800°K regular incandescent bulb or a 3,200°K halogen, they don't look that orange in person. Probably why all the LED manufacturers include their color charts in B&W.:laughing: Well it's a good place to start anyway.


 
Thanks! Really great explanation that, should be a sticky in itself imo 

Also I saw that Bin Coding thread, but didn't realised the first ANSI chart applied to the XM-L's as well! Thanks, Great chart!

I think i shall go with the 1A then for the most 6K "white" look!

*Now for the optic lens:*
Can i buy the Carclo 10267 that Curt_R mentioned and modify it to fit the XM-L, considering it was designed for the LUXEON Rebels? I see the XM-L's are much bigger than the rebels, so how would I go about modifying the lens? Drill the hole to make it bigger?

Maybe @Curt_R can advise with this?

I think I am going to order some 1A XM-L's on a *mounted on 14mm Round Printed Circuit Boards* from Cutter, and then order the Rebel Side Emitter Optic Lens as well and modify it to fit?
EDIT: Order placed on the above items!! Now I wait!!

Thanks all !


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## Al Combs (Jun 19, 2011)

aae55555 said:


> Thanks! Really great explanation that, should be a sticky in itself imo


 Glad you found it useful.


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## Curt R (Jun 20, 2011)

No need to modify the 10267 optic. The samples that I have here
will work with the P4 and the XML. 

Curt


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## aae55555 (Jun 20, 2011)

Curt R said:


> No need to modify the 10267 optic. The samples that I have here
> will work with the P4 and the XML.
> 
> Curt


 
Thanks Curt. Great info  

I've ordered a few lenses and LEDs so im looking forward to it arriving


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## Harold_B (Jun 21, 2011)

For kicks I ran a simulation of an H7 Halogen bulb and then of a Cree XM-L with the Carlco 10267 Optic. The ray trace results are very different but then it may come down to the application.

H7 polar plot: http://i1083.photobucket.com/albums/j390/Harold_LF/H7POLARPLOT.jpg

XM-L w/ 10267 ploar plot: http://i1083.photobucket.com/albums/j390/Harold_LF/XM-LPOLARPLOT.jpg

Harold


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## aae55555 (Jun 21, 2011)

Thanks Harold thats really interesting! As you said though will have to test it in its application to se how it fares 

What program is that? Available to public?

Thanks


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## Harold_B (Jun 21, 2011)

The platform for the solid modeling is SolidWorks 2011 which is available through several local VARs (value added resellers). The ray trace and lighting simulation softwares are from OptisWorks 2011 and are available from Optis.


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## Curt R (Jun 21, 2011)

Ray trace programs are not cheap, but anyone can buy them.

From a casual look at the dispersal pattern it would seem that combined
with a shallow Phoenix reflector a very good thrower could be made with
little side spill. Normally a deep reflector is required and still a lot of light
energy is lost to side spill. I have 83 mm deep reflectors and the Carclo
optic, now I need to set aside some time to experiment. I had not thought
of using the two together before.

Curt


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