# A Primer on Modern Watch History and Movements.



## Monocrom (Nov 12, 2013)

Have noticed lately that there's more interest in watches on CPF than in past years. As a watch enthusiast, I love seeing that. However, some members might enjoy a run-down of the most important aspect of a watch ... the movement. But first, a condensed history of the modern watch industry.

When pocket-watches no longer became simply fascinating mechanical marvels for royalty and the wealthiest of nobleman to enjoy, mainly thanks to the dawn of the Industrial Revolution which brought parts costs down substantially, the common man could afford them. Little actually changed though regarding pocket-watches themselves. Other than most were now no longer produced with a staggering amount of complications (features) built into the watches. (In at least one case, 32 different complications. And that's not the highest number stuffed into a mechanical pocket watch either, while still allowing a reasonable size for carrying it. Makes modern-day G-Shocks look less impressive.) Significantly less precious metals were used as well. In some cases brass was used instead of gold for the watch cases themselves. Brass can be polished to a nice shine. 

Pocket-watches for the common man were often simple affairs (in terms of complications). Though some were still made with luxury in mind. Many pocket-watches often featured Roman Numerals around the dial and two hands. One for the hours and one for the minutes. That was it. (BTW, the reason why old-fashioned pocket-watch dials [and grand-father clocks] feature "IIII" for the 4 o'clock marker instead of the proper "IV," is due to the Roman language itself. IV is sometimes confused for the Roman word "God." Thus it would look very odd to have a dial which reads, One, Two, Three, God, Five. Therefore, you often see "IIII" in place of "IV.") In case one's watch might accidentally stop due to forgetting to wind it once a day, quite a few pocket watches also featured a continuous-running small seconds hand inside a sub-dial. Glance at a pocket-watch's dial, and if the seconds hand wasn't moving, you knew your watch stopped. No date feature (hadn't been invented yet). 

Old-fashioned pocket watches were delicate affairs. Though to be honest, not nearly as delicate as modern-day Smartphones. (Which many use as pocket-watches for telling the time.) A collection of mainly small gears and springs, pocket-watches had to be wound by using the crown, once each day to work all day long. Often they were wound every morning. (In Bram Stoker's "Dracula," Jonathan Harker specifically mentions winding his pocket-watch every night before going to bed.) The crown also set the hands. Which was sometimes done quite often as mechanical pocket-watches for a very long time, simply were not very accurate. Once pocket-watches became common, there was no innovation. None, for years upon years. It was seen as unnecessary. And then something changed that. Something forced innovation upon the watch industry ... 

Railroad standards for pocket-watches became standardized during the very early 20th Century (though they did exist many years prior). This was due to a horrific train accident in 1891 in America. A train came barreling into a station which was still occupied by the train ahead of it on the schedule. The tragedy cost many lives. Including that of the conductor of the train that was still in the station. Though he was not killed in the crash itself. Blaming himself and feeling horribly guilty, the conductor committed suicide that night. To add more tragedy to this train collision, the official investigation revealed that the conductor was not at fault. His pocket-watch had been accurate. The watch belonging to the conductor of the other train had been running too fast. Thus, causing him to believe it was several minutes later than it really was. Thus, the other train came into the station too early.

In order to make sure this never happened again, numerous railroads in America agreed that timepieces needed to all be standardized across the industry. There were no quartz watches back then. Just relatively inaccurate mechanical ones. (This is why it bothers me that some modern-day quartz watches have "Railroad Approved" printed on the dials of their watches. Usually white-dial wrist-watches with a bit of an old-fashioned look. Neither wrist-watches nor quartz movement existed when these standards went into place. So, it's just an empty marketing ploy.) 

So, innovation was demanded. Hamilton especially came out on top back then. They were able to meet the very tight and rigid standards demanded from the railroads. Basically, no bigger variation in gaining or losing 4 seconds daily (Maximum variation of only 30 seconds a week). Now that standard is very easy for a quartz movement to meet. An absolutely herculean effort for a mechanical watch that typically would vary sometimes a handful of minutes a day. Hamilton and a few other American watch brands pulled it off. Back during the start of the 20th Century, if you wanted the absolutely best watch you could get; you didn't buy a Swiss-Made timepiece. You bought an American-made Hamilton. Rolex existed back then. But it had a very different reputation than it does now. Rolex back then was new and was a British brand known as simply a caser. (Putting movements and quite a few parts made from established brands into their own cases and selling the completed watches for very little money.) 

During the Boer War, officers realized the short-comings of pocket-watches and began wearing wrist-watches. The early wrist-watches were little more than converted pocket-watches. (Wrist-watches being seen primarily as dainty pieces of jewelry for women.) So, in 1899, pocket-watches first became obsolete. Though it took the rest of the world approximately 25 years to realize that as well. When the first World War broke out, many officers and soldiers went into battle wearing converted pocket-watches on their wrists. The conversions were done by independent watchmakers who were very plentiful back then. The conversions typically involved removal of the latch, replacement of the large crown and stem with a much smaller crown, rotating the movement and dial so that the crown was now positioned at the 3 o'clock position instead of the 12. Next came soldering lugs with fixed bars to the top and bottom of the case. Followed by attachment of (usually) a very thin strap of flexible leather. Thus, the first Men's wrist-watch. Though nothing was done to beef up the durability of the watches. Some were crude affairs. Others downright good-looking. Soon, watch brands began making dedicated Men's wrist-watches. With Cartier being the first.

As usual with the watch industry, things became stagnant again. Wrist-watches require smaller parts. And small wrist-watches were in style. (Those same Men's watches are today considered Ladies-sized.) Smaller parts generally means less accuracy. Though mechanical watch movements are available in different grades. The best in the Swiss industry is called Chronometer grade. Watch movements are tested in various positions. And Chronometer grade ones are certified to not vary more than 7 seconds a day and not less than 4 seconds a day. Though honestly, Japanese brands such as Seiko can easily do better. And often have with domestic market models. In America we get decent mechanical models with plenty of deviation. Though Chronometer (COSC) grade movements are generally over-hyped and command huge premiums. Any experienced independent watchmaker can open up a mechanical watch and regulate it so it becomes more accurate for you. Though it still won't be absolutely spot-on. Regulating a watch with a decent mechanical movement inside is both easy and inexpensive. 

World War II was a dark time. Many sacrifices were made. The most obscure of which ended up being the entire American watch industry. While the Swiss did make certain changes during war-time that would ultimately appeal to Post-war customers, the American watch industry was put on absolute hold. No watches for the civilian market. Military personnel only during the duration of the war. When the war was over, American brands were forced to play catch-up to the Swiss. Ultimately, they never caught up. After 1952, Hamilton slowly became less and less American as more and more watch parts were bought, shipped over, and put into their watches. Hamilton and other U.S. brands incrementally became less and less American-Made in all the ways that truly mattered. 

The biggest change to the industry came in the form of the Quartz revolution from Japan in the 1970s. Traditional brands from America, Switzerland, and Germany all saw the warning signs. But laughed at the thought that the Japanese and quartz technology were any real threat. The result? ... What was left of the American watch industry died. (Only in recent years have a few micro brands tried to revive it. The only one with any real success has been RGM.) The Swiss watch industry would have died too. Nick Hayek consolidated 20 Swiss brands in order keep much of the industry alive. Quartz technology in the 1970's was incredibly expensive. Mechanical watches were seen as horribly obsolete and outdated. Quartz watches offered many advantages over mechanical ones.

More accuracy, by far. Even compared to mechanical watches that meet COSC standards. Far more durable than mechanical watches. Far less servicing required. (Much of the time, just changing the battery is all that's needed.) Not subject to getting magnetized the way mechanical watches can. (Instead of losing a few seconds a day, imagine losing 20 - 30 minutes a day. And fixing the problem requires a de-magnetizer. Now you can buy a cheap one off eBay. Back then, it required finding a watchmaker with the right machine.) Also, nowadays quartz watches are cheap because quartz technology has become incredibly inexpensive. 

No lie, no joke ... A $5 digital quartz watch purchased at the supermarket is going to be far more accurate and durable than mechanical watches. Even some mechanical models costing literally as much as a nice house. (No, that's not a typo.) 

While certain Swiss brands, such as Rolex, came out unscathed after the '70s. The vast majority did not and would not have survived had it not been for consolidation. (Monopolies are not frowned upon in Switzerland. Just the opposite as a matter of fact.) The largest consolidation once again took place thanks to Mr. Hayek. In the '80s, he decided to beat the Japanese at their own game. Swatch was created. And became wildly popular among teens. Especially young girls who often wore several Swatches on each arm. So popular that the consolidation officially became known as The Swatch Group. Incorporating 19 of the biggest brands in the industry. (Oris was not happy with its position within the consolidation and its employees bought Oris out of it before it official became the Swatch Group.) Ironically, the vast majority of the Swiss watch industry (including many luxury brands) survived and now thrive because it was saved by Swatch. A brand known for making cheap, often funky, quartz watches designed primarily to appeal to young girls as fashion accessories. 

The Swatch Group exists today and controls a very significant share of the market. ETA, a Swatch Group brand that makes mechanical movements for pretty much the entire watch industry (except for Japan, and China) is now controlled by Nick Hayek Jr., along with the rest of the Swatch Group. The latest update to the industry is that he has decided that ETA will no longer supply movements to non-Swatch Group brands. Other Swiss-based mechanical movement makers do exist. Though none as huge as ETA. Supply of ETA movements will be gradually reduced and finally cut off completely by the year 2019. ETA will lose out on massive profits. Though even the very small micro brands won't go out of business. There are options such as the other Swiss movement makers and Japanese brands such as Seiko, and Citizen. (Citizen's Miyota mechanical movements in particular are excellent. And the Japanese are willing to do business with brands they don't own.)

With regards to the prestige that "Swiss-Made" watches enjoy. The sad reality is that for most such brands, (though not all) it has become a marketing gimmick. Currently, any watch that is assembled (not made) in Switzerland up to just 51%; legally qualifies as "Swiss-Made" in that nation. Many so-called "Swiss-Made" watches have a great deal of parts inside made in China and other nations. Among watch enthusiasts and collectors, it's the worst-kept secret in the watch industry. Basically, if a "Swiss-Made" watch costs less than several thousands of dollars, you're getting something that only meets that nation's legal definition of the term. 

Unfortunately mechanical movements are no longer made by the hands of skilled and experienced artisans. They haven't been made that way in a very long time. Often, machines put mechanical watches together. A worker then inspects them. Perhaps a bit of hand-polishing of parts, at best. This is true of all inexpensive brands, and many luxury brands. Just an unfortunate truth of what the industry has become.

Below are a couple of vids. that go into precise detail regarding mechanical, and quartz movements. (If I didn't include the vids., this post would easily be 3x bigger.) The one for mechanical movements is from 1949. But honestly, very little has changed regarding mechanical movements since then. The biggest one is the addition of a free-swinging rotor which very slowly winds the spring with each movement of your arm and body. Thus, if you stay active, there's no need to wind your mechanical watch once a day. A mechanical with such a rotor placed on top of the movement is known as an "automatic" or an automatic movement. The addition of that rotor is literally the only difference between a mechanical watch and an automatic watch.

Quartz watches are well-known but the vid. should help with regards to details.

There are specialized movements. One is called Kinetic. Basically the disadvantages of both automatic watches and quartz watches all rolled up in one. Seiko is the only brand able to make decent Kinetic watches. Pretty much every other brand has abandoned the technology. Instead of a rotor winding a spring, your arm movements charge up a battery inside the watch. So if you have a desk job, your watch is likely to stop (like an automatic). Plus, your watch might die anyway when the battery finally gets old (like a traditional quartz watch).

We also have solar-powered watches. Seiko has a line of those. But Citizen's Eco-Drive technology is King of the Mountain. All the advantages of quartz without the biggest disadvantage of the battery dying without notice 1 to 3 years after you buy the watch. There's a battery in there. But it's a special solar-powered rechargeable one that can be recharged with artificial light (like your favorite flashlight). Plus, Eco-Drive models typically last over a full decade before the special battery needs replacing. (This is where Citizen screws up with their marketing. Yes, you will need to replace a battery with an Eco-Drive watch. You'll just not need to do it anytime soon.) Battery replacement requires buying the special battery yourself off eBay and finding a good independent watchmaker to open up your Citizen. Or, you'll have to ship your watch off to Japan for Citizen to properly service your Eco-Drive watch. I have a Citizen BM7080-03E Eco-Drive model. It has been absolutely fantastic! I consider Eco-Drive watches to be high-end quartz and I recommend them highly.

Before ending this post (yup, there's more; but not much more [I promise]) I'd like to invite any CPFers who want to know more about the watch Industry and watch movements to please post your questions in this topic. I'll monitor it closely. (You think I'm not going to after typing all that above?) And will do my best to answer your questions. I didn't get into in-house movements vs. ETA-based ones. But if you want to know about that or literally anything else watch related, just go ahead and ask.


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## gunga (Nov 12, 2013)

Woah! Have not had time to finish this post, but THANKS! I am a minor WIS so appreciate the detailed info!


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## Monocrom (Nov 12, 2013)

gunga said:


> Woah! Have not had time to finish this post, but THANKS! I am a minor WIS so appreciate the detailed info!



You should have seen how long that post was _before_ I edited it. 

I have to admit, I was surprised as Hell to see someone already posted a reply. I understand though. Take your time to read it over. Take your time, then post any questions you have. Happy to help out any fellow CPFers who want to learn about watches. Basically, I condensed 3 years of learning into pretty much one post.


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## mvyrmnd (Nov 12, 2013)

Thanks for the post. I've been hanging around over at watchuseek, but this is a nice and concise primer. Nicely done.


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## Raze (Nov 12, 2013)

Was about to pull the trigger at Watchismo. 

Thanks for the excellent informative read. (Like your post in the Fountain Pen Network)


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## persco (Nov 12, 2013)

Monocrom said:


> (BTW, the reason why old-fashioned pocket-watch dials [and grand-father clocks] feature "IIII" for the 4 o'clock marker instead of the proper "IV," is due to the Roman language itself. IV is sometimes confused for the Roman word "God." Thus it would look very odd to have a dial which reads, One, Two, Three, God, Five. Therefore, you often see "IIII" in place of "IV.")



Great post, Monocrom. I love this thread. One thing, however: Not sure the above is historically accurate. The Roman language was Latin, not "Roman." The Latin word for god is deus. Though, the word would appear as DEVS -- with a V indicating U, I'm not sure there would be enough confusion to explain the IIII instead of IV.


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## RTR882 (Nov 12, 2013)

I'm into watches (mechanical), great post! Please keep doing it! FWIW, I have an old Seiko automatic Chronograph dating from the late 70's. At the time it was the first automatic chrono on the market. It is still am amazing time keeper - the equal of a modern Rolex chronometer. Says something about Japanese movements. Any comments on the Spring Drive?

Best,
Bob


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## smokinbasser (Nov 12, 2013)

I have and wear daily my Seiko day/date chronograph I bought in SEA in 1968. One cleaning and crystal replacement has kept it in excellent condition.


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## DrafterDan (Nov 12, 2013)

@Monocrom - You must be a fast typist, or have way more spare time than I do. Nice posting. It's always fun to see the watch spark lit in someone's eyes.


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## Jumpmaster (Nov 12, 2013)

Can you explain what it means if a manual-winding watch has "low amplitude" and what causes that? I understand that it means the watch's balance wheel doesn't rotate "enough", but why does that cause the watch to run fast? Are there any good resources for how to service manual-wind watches? (The one I have with this problem is a pocket watch)...

FWIW, it keeps time pretty well as long as I keep it wound frequently...


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## Obijuan Kenobe (Nov 12, 2013)

I am particularly interested in old pocket watches. Been carrying an old Elgin for years now.

The railroad watch itch is killing me. Pointers?

obi


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## Jumpmaster (Nov 12, 2013)

Yep...mine is a Hamilton 992...

I did a LOT of research online before deciding on a "railroad" type watch. I thought about trying to summarize it just now, but don't want people to start nitpicking my generalizations.  But if you have questions, please PM me and I will answer them.


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## Monocrom (Nov 12, 2013)

Some great responses. Bear with me guys, I suck at multi-quoting.
____________________
*~ mvyrmnd*:

Thank you. Feel free to ask about anything watch related. 
____________________
_*~ Raze*_:

Thank you. Though a bit confused. I'm not a member on that site. You will find me in the "Pens & Writing instruments" sub-forum on Watch U seek (along with most of the other forums on there). Ironically, I do have an extensive background in the pen industry as well. Having once sold a wide variety of pen brands in a High-End shop. 

My user-name is fairly common. (The guy listed as "Monocrom" over on Facebook, yeah; that's someone else.) I try to use the same avatar and user-name on the different sites I enjoy visiting. Though that would be rather ironic if another guy using "Monocrom" also had extensive knowledge of pens. Though if he's using the same avatar, yeah; just a bit creepy.
____________________
_*~ persco*_:

The main issue was the outlying regions when Rome expanded outwards in basically all directions. Though not discussed openly in Rome, towards the latter years of the Roman empire, the inhabitants of the outlying regions held onto their beliefs and their Gods. The Romans were no longer interested in taking the time to completely try to subjugate those groups living that far away, though still technically part of the Empire. As long as they accepted being part of the Empire, that was seen as "good enough."

Reports apparently got back to Rome that the word for "God" was being abbreviated. In some cases, to "IV" and that certain outlying regions were confused regarding, as you mentioned, "V" as used to mean "U" (Bulgari still does this with their watches. Substituting "V" for the "U" in their brand name.) Though the latter apparently was cleared up back then. It was decided that it would just be easier to use "IIII" instead of "IV." Not a ton of documentation out there regarding the confusion. But by then, it was seen as best to do whatever was needed to hold the Empire together as Rome had extended way too far in the Ancient world. Likely would not have been an issue in a modern age of telephones, computers, and airplanes. 
____________________
_*~ RTR882*_:

Seiko is horribly underrated. Their Spring Drive movement is the absolute best marriage of mechanical and quartz technology. Though the biggest issue for owners outside of Japan is going to be servicing. You're simply not going to find an Old-World, independent, watchmaker with real skill (what few of them that are left) who'll be able to actually service a Spring Drive model. That's the main issue. Despite the fact that Seiko introduced the first Spring Drive model to the public over a decade ago, independent watchmakers simply haven't jumped on the Spring Drive innovation. They have no desire to learn how to properly service a hybrid movement. Part of that is Seiko's fault as in many nations, including America, we get flooded with Seiko's cheapest quartz offerings. Even with automatic Seiko timepieces, despite it's popularity among enthusiasts, the iconic SKX007 is not known for its accuracy. (Only recently having had Seiko's workhorse 7S26 movement in the model updated to a slightly better one.) Despite being iconic, Seiko could easily do better. But the outlook is that American buyers want cheap and reliable. And indeed, that's what the general public wants. Meaning watch enthusiasts and collectors sometimes miss out on getting their hands on a Spring drive model. 
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_*~ smokinbasser*_:

Hate to be the bearer of bad news. And to be clear, your situation is extremely common. Mechanical watches can run for years or even decades while corroding away on the inside. Even while keeping time rather accurately. I have no clue why mechanical timepieces are able to do that, I just know they do. I couldn't tell you the process involved in which a caterpillar turns into a butterfly. I just know it happens, and it happens all the time.

It's not just due to corrosion or even rust caused by water or water-vapor that seeps into a watch case because the seals haven't been replaced in years or decades and therefore can no longer keep out moisture. Mechanical watches need oil. Not a great deal. An absolutely miniscule amount of it. But they still need it. A watch that hasn't been serviced in many years or even decades ... You've got metal grinding on metal. Not at a high rate of speed. But that's what's happening inside your watch. Made in 1968, certain worn out parts are going to be nearly impossible to replace. Unless that cleaning included a thorough servicing of the movement, and took place not too long ago, there likely is going to be quite a bit of damage on the inside. Sorry.
____________________
_*~ DrafterDan*_:

Thanks. Lots of spare time right now ... And an inability to type. After editing, that initial post of mine too a handful of hours. (Not Kidding.)

I plan on getting some Dragon software in the near future. Talk, and the computer types for you. 
____________________
*~ Jumpmaster*:

I'm sorry but when it comes to the absolute finer details of correcting issues that mechanical watches experience, that's beyond the scope of my knowledge. A competent independent watchmaker should be able to trouble-shoot that type of issue for a small fee. I do know that the normal amplitude in a watch running properly is going to be about 400 degrees. Not sure what causes it to be less than 400. 

I do know that when the balance wheel over-rotates, it can hit the lever fork just on the outside of it. This causes it to stop. But then it accelerates which causes it to over-rotate in the opposite direction. It's not how a watch should properly work. This back & forth can go on for as long as 30 minutes after you wind your watch. And because it's just over-rotating in both directions, your watch can gain an insane amount of time. That's usually why watches will run hyper-fast. Though, once again, that's just speculation on my part based on my _limited_ knowledge of the intricate details of mechanical watch movements. It's not that the balance wheel doesn't rotate enough, it's that it's over-rotating due to the amplitude being too low. 

Unfortunately, no such book or reference manual that I know of which teaches how to properly service an older, manual-wind movement. That type of work requires very specialized (usually costly) tools and often a steady hand as good as a surgeon's. Vintage pocket-watches are definitely not something you want to DIY. If you're located near a major city, you should be able to track down a handful of independent watchmakers. Realistically an average of two of them will likely be willing to work on it. Than again, I live in NYC where there are a few such Old World watchmakers. Keeping your pocket-watch frequently wound so that it performs properly might indicate a gummed up movement inside. How long has it been since it was serviced, or did you buy it used from someone? Sorry I couldn't help you more. 
____________________
*~ Obijuan Kenobe*:

Jumpmaster beat me to it. Anything from Hamilton. Especially the 992.

Another brand worth checking out is Ball (Yup, "Ball;" that's not a typo). Just watch out for any searches that pull up the modern-day watch brand with the same name. Ball of today definitely is not the old Ball company. New Ball claims to be American but owners of the brand are in Hong Kong. Parts used in Ball timepieces of today come from China. 

Also take a look at vintage pocket-watches made by Illinois Watch Company. Those are worth buying as well.


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## Flying Turtle (Nov 12, 2013)

Thanks for the primer, Monocrom. Great work and great info for a relative noob to the nuts and bolts of watches like me. It sparked me into delving into demagnetizing on various forums. I think that's the problem with a Vostok I gave up on a few years ago. It does seem to deflect a compass pretty much. Probably got it too close to the graphite furnace I used in my old lab job. Somewhere around here I've got an ancient tape head demagnetizer that I'll try if I can find it. Might also try the degaussing trick with an old computer monitor. I'll report if I think this works.

Geoff


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## Bullzeyebill (Nov 13, 2013)

Good info here. I've been delving into Seiko diver automatic movements lately and learning something about Seiko's made for the US market vs overseas markets. Seiko introduced a new automatic movement that, in effect, updates the tried and true Cal 7s26 The new Cal being the Cal 4R35, 4R36. The newer movements is windable and hacking. I went to my watch maker and he had no info on that new model, and showed me the his current US catalog for Seiko. It showed only three Divers and none were based on the new 4R35, 4R36 movement. I ended up ordering one from Amazon, went back to my watchmaker and he said that overseas models, not US marketed, were only available overseas and would have no warranty, or service from Seiko US. I was a lesson for me, and while I do enjoy my new Orange Monster with the 4R36 movement, it may be difficult for me to source parts for it here in the good old USA. Luckiy, my watchmaker can service most anything, including automatic Rolex's.

Maybe you can shed more light on the different movements available worldwide that may never make it into the US.

Bill


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## Monocrom (Nov 13, 2013)

Flying Turtle said:


> Thanks for the primer, Monocrom. Great work and great info for a relative noob to the nuts and bolts of watches like me. It sparked me into delving into demagnetizing on various forums. I think that's the problem with a Vostok I gave up on a few years ago. It does seem to deflect a compass pretty much. Probably got it too close to the graphite furnace I used in my old lab job. Somewhere around here I've got an ancient tape head demagnetizer that I'll try if I can find it. Might also try the degaussing trick with an old computer monitor. I'll report if I think this works.
> 
> Geoff



Please keep us updated. Hopefully it'll work in giving your Vostok new life.

Glad you enjoyed the primer.


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## Monocrom (Nov 13, 2013)

Bullzeyebill said:


> Good info here. I've been delving into Seiko diver automatic movements lately and learning something about Seiko's made for the US market vs overseas markets. Seiko introduced a new automatic movement that, in effect, updates the tried and true Cal 7s26 The new Cal being the Cal 4R15, 4R16. The newer movements is windable and hacking. I went to my watch maker and he had no info on that new model, and showed me the his current US catalog for Seiko. It showed only three Divers and none were based on the new 4R15 movement. I ended up ordering one from Amazon, went back to my watchmaker and he said that overseas models, not US marketed, were only available overseas and would have no warranty, or service from Seiko US. I was a lesson for me, and while I do enjoy my new Orange Monster with the 4R15 movement, it may be difficult for me to source parts for it here in the good old USA. Luckiy, my watchmaker can service most anything, including automatic Rolex's.
> 
> Maybe you can shed more light on the different movements available worldwide that may never make it into the US.
> 
> Bill



Rather odd that your watchmaker said that. The Orange monsters as well as the Black monsters are available in America. Though it's possible that the ones with the newer movements haven't yet been approved for the American market. That'll likely change soon though as Seiko is very slowly phasing out their 7S26. Despite having a reputation for durability, the lack of hacking and hand-winding along with its less than stellar accuracy is why Seiko is very slowly phasing it out. 

Regarding different movements world-wide, the truth is, the actual number is quite small. Excluding the specific ones already covered in this topic, nearly everything out there is some sort of variation of ETA's absolute workhorse 2824. There are some genuine in-house movements from the recognized High-End brands. But I'm not too familiar with those specialized mechanical movements. 

Sea-Gull (one of the better Chinese watch brands) simple took the ETA 2824 and reverse-engineered it. Sellita (most well-known movement-maker actually based in Switzerland that isn't part of the Swatch Group) used to be a sub-contractor for ETA not too long ago. Thus, quite a few watches out there with ETA movements inside that were actually assembled by Sellita. Sellita's SW-200 is literally an ETA 2824-2 but with one extra jewel tossed in. (It's just there to distinguish one from the other.) Literally just as good as the ETA version. Though it doesn't enjoy as good of a reputation due to early teething issues when Sellita started making their SW-200. Also, ironically, despite being identical twins; there's very little parts interchangeability between the two. 

I have noticed that watch companies based outside of Switzerland tend to be a lot more guarded with what goes into their in-house movements than those located in that nation. (Every watchmaker in the world knows how to service Rolex's in-house movements.) If it's not in-house though (and the vast majority of mechanical movements aren't) it's going to likely be some variation of ETA's 2824 movement. If it has a Day of the Week complication as well as a Date complication, then ETA's 2836. Which is literally just a 2824 with a Day complication tossed in. 

It's scary how utterly dependent the watch industry, even outside of Switzerland, has been on ETA in the past to supply watch movements for the rest of them. So much so, that the news that 2019 was the cut-off for all non-Swatch Group brands has shaken the whole of the watch world. Except for Seiko, Citizen, and other Japanese brands. The Chinese are fine too since they already reverse-engineered the ETA 2824 long ago.

Hate to say it, but there really isn't much variety out there considering the sheer number of different watch brands. Both well-known and obscure micro-brands. When there is a difference, it's often concentrating on improving a stock mechanical movement. Such as silicone o-rings over rubber. Use of modern non-magnetic metals in the movement to increase resistance to magnetic fields. Those sorts of evolutionary improvements over designing a ton of different mechanical movements. Some brands, such as Damasko, have excelled at the evolutionary over revolutionary process.


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## Bullzeyebill (Nov 13, 2013)

Made a correction, though not really important, to my post. I have the Orange Monster with the 4R36 movement, windeable and hacking. Apparently Seiko is cutting back on their automatic movements for US markets and concentrating on the Solar/Quartz movements, trying to do catch up with Citizen, no doubt. I have one of Seiko's Solar Diver's (200 meter), also with an orange face.

Bill


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## Monocrom (Nov 14, 2013)

Bullzeyebill said:


> Made a correction, though not really important, to my post. I have the Orange Monster with the 4R36 movement, windeable and hacking. Apparently Seiko is cutting back on their automatic movements for US markets and concentrating on the Solar/Quartz movements, trying to do catch up with Citizen, no doubt. I have one of Seiko's Solar Diver's (200 meter), also with an orange face.
> 
> Bill



Unfortunately, that part is true. Have to cater to one's core customer base in any given nation. Sadly, in America, that means mainly quartz or solar-powered quartz. I like quartz. Especially enjoy wearing my Titanium-cased Citizen Eco-Drive BM7080-03E model as my main EDC watch. But unfortunately, it means missing out on quite a few excellent mechanical models that Seiko makes for their domestic market in Japan.


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## PCC (Nov 15, 2013)

I wonder how the Omega 1012 movement fits into all this?

Are loose movements available for purchase anywhere in small quantities? There used to be a member here, I forgot his tag, but, his name is Stefan, who had a hobby of buying old pocket watches that were not working and adapting modern movements into them. Sounds like something I might look into.


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## Monocrom (Nov 15, 2013)

PCC said:


> I wonder how the Omega 1012 movement fits into all this?



Quite simply ... One of the best in-house, high beat, movements ever available in an Omega watch.



> Are loose movements available for purchase anywhere in small quantities? There used to be a member here, I forgot his tag, but, his name is Stefan, who had a hobby of buying old pocket watches that were not working and adapting modern movements into them. Sounds like something I might look into.



If you're mainly willing to use Chinese-made movements. Check out the following site in the link below. Though in all honesty, I've never purchased from them. Have heard of others who have. Overall, they _seemed_ to be satisfied. Looks like a good place for everything watch-parts related. (If you wanted to, you could even assemble your own watch from various spare parts. That would be a great story to tell others if you have the skill. That you literally put together your very own watch for yourself.) Though once again I can't personally endorse the site. And, it's the only one of its type that I know of. 

www.ofrei.com/page1119.html


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## Bullzeyebill (Nov 15, 2013)

Regarding the Chinese movements, how can you tell which movement fits in which watch? A watch maker would probably know, but for the layman how can I tell which movement would fit in say, a Seiko 007 Diver. or an ETA 2824 watch.

Bill


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## PCC (Nov 16, 2013)

Thanks! The Omega 1012 movement is what's in the watch my dad gave to me many years ago.

Otto Frei is only a few miles from me. Might just have to go visit them...


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## Monocrom (Nov 16, 2013)

Bullzeyebill said:


> Regarding the Chinese movements, how can you tell which movement fits in which watch? A watch maker would probably know, but for the layman how can I tell which movement would fit in say, a Seiko 007 Diver. or an ETA 2824 watch.
> 
> Bill



Unfortunately, specs. don't tell the whole story in that regard. Yes, you could measure the inner circumference of a watch case, then measure the circumference of a complete movement ready to be installed. But then there's a major issue often neglected by those who are new to installing movements into generic cases ... The movement holder/spacer. 

When it comes to all the recognized High-End brands, open up their timepieces and you'll find one of two things. Either no holder/spacer at all (meaning the movement fits perfectly inside their watch cases) or you'll find a metal movement holder/spacer. Some of the brands one notch down in the Luxury brand category also don't use a holder/spacer in some of their models. Though all of them (except TAG Heuer) use metal ones if they do use a holder/spacer. (For some incredibly odd reason, TAG Heuer across the board uses plastic holders in their watches. In something like a $200 Seiko automatic, a cheap plastic holder is perfectly understandable. On a watch costing around $3,000 it makes no sense. Plastic holders also have longevity issues.) 

The biggest issue for someone who isn't a professional watchmaker is that the thickness in circumference of these plastic or metal movement holders/spacers can vary rather significantly. Take the caseback off of, for example, a 41mm Longines HydroConquest and you'll see a very tastefully done rotor. You'll also see a movement that looks downright tiny compared to the large but excellent metal movement holder/spacer. On some watches with a plastic holder/spacer, you take off the caseback; and it's easy to confuse the thing for a slightly thick black rubber O-ring instead. 

It varies. That's the problem. It can vary by a great deal too. Best bet for being absolutely sure is to consult with an independent watchmaker. With the site I linked to in my previous post, you can contact them by various different methods and inquire about which cases might be best with which movements. (Though clearly their knowledge will likely be limited to the movements and cases which they sell through their site.)

It's not the movements themselves which are the main problem. It's the varying thicknesses of the holders/spacers.


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## Monocrom (Nov 16, 2013)

PCC said:


> Thanks! The Omega 1012 movement is what's in the watch my dad gave to me many years ago.



Happy to help. Your dad's watch had one of Omega's best in-house movements (possibly the best one) before Omega switched over to ETA-based movements.



> Otto Frei is only a few miles from me. Might just have to go visit them...



If you do get a chance to stop by and check them out in person. Please let us know what the experience was like.


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## Raze (Nov 16, 2013)

Pulled the trigger on my first mechanical watch. A Rotary Jura skeleton. 

I think it runs a slightly modified Claro-Semag 888 movement to qualify as being "Swiss Made"

Edit: Pic


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## Barbarian (Nov 24, 2013)

Great writeup Monocrom! 

What is your experience with and opinion of atomic signal timekeeping? Any brands better than others regarding this timekeeping method?

I have a couple of Eco-Drive watches with atomic signal and so far, I could not be happier.


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## Monocrom (Nov 24, 2013)

Barbarian said:


> Great writeup Monocrom!
> 
> What is your experience with and opinion of atomic signal timekeeping? Any brands better than others regarding this timekeeping method?
> 
> I have a couple of Eco-Drive watches with atomic signal and so far, I could not be happier.



Thank you.

Truth is, my experience with them is zero. Couldn't help you out regarding which brands are better, in that regard. Sorry.

I will say however that Citizen's Eco-Drive line overall is fantastic. Hard to go wrong with an Eco-Drive model in general. My main EDC watch is my Eco-Drive BM7080-03E model. Fantastic performance in the 3 years I've had her.


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## Monocrom (Dec 1, 2013)

Thought you guys would enjoy seeing what can be done in regards to the highest example of the watchmaker's art.


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## Flying Turtle (Dec 1, 2013)

That's amazing! It certainly is an "art". That video and some of the others that follow are hard to believe.

Geoff


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## Monocrom (Dec 1, 2013)

Glad you enjoyed it, Geoff.

Have to agree that when it gets to that level it's no longer a watch but a true work of Art.


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## cprrckwlf (Dec 10, 2013)

Jumpmaster said:


> Can you explain what it means if a manual-winding watch has "low amplitude" and what causes that? I understand that it means the watch's balance wheel doesn't rotate "enough", but why does that cause the watch to run fast? Are there any good resources for how to service manual-wind watches? (The one I have with this problem is a pocket watch)...
> 
> FWIW, it keeps time pretty well as long as I keep it wound frequently...



Got this one, Monocrom.

Low amplitude means just what you said it does -- the balance wheel isn't swinging as far as it should. 

Now, a quartz watch (with a few exceptions) moves the second hand 1 time per second, right? This is why it has that distinctive jumping or ticking from second to second with a little stepping motor moving everything.

A mechanical watch moves the second hand a lot more often depending on the watch's frequency or beats per hour (bph) -- some watches 4 times (this is slow), some 5, some 6, some 8, whatever there are tradeoffs in things like accuracy and power reserve depending on the number -- this causes the "sweep". What we need to know here, is that the Balance wheel's oscillation is responsible for the bph, and, with the escapement (the thing that locks and unlocks the drive train), converting the energy in the mainspring (what you wind) into energy for everything else. As the balance wheel moves one way it releases the escapement and the second hand moves its tiny amount. Then the balance wheel gets kicked back by the escapement, swings back the other way, the escapement releases again, and the second hand moves a little further. If the balance wheel isn't getting kicked as hard as it should then isn't moving as far as it should, then it is traveling a shorter distance to each side and so it can cover the ground faster. Therefore low power = low amplitude = fast watch.

There are any number of reasons that this can happen, from bad regulation, to gunk in the system, to worn out parts. Gunk in the system -- dirt, grime, old oil -- is the most likely and a clean and oil is normally all it takes. It isn't overly hard but does require some knowledge (got this), specialized tools (don't have this), and very steady hands (really don't have this). This is a good series to get started: http://www.clockmaker.com.au/diy_seiko_7s26/ using a watch you can get for $50 or $60, but all movements are different. It is not something you want to try 1st time on a watch you care about -- find someone who has been sitting in a dark back room hunched over so long that they can no longer stand up straight, and with a permanent squint in one eye from holding a monocle there for the past 50 years.

Finally, as far as it keeping better time if wound fully: Over the course of a single winding the watches amount of available power and speed varies. For a watch that is functioning normally when you've first wound it all the way it has a lot of power and it can't completely control the release of it so the escapement gives the balance big kicks with each pass (I've read it to be around 270 degrees to each side) so the watch is actually running slower (more ground to cover). As it releases through the center of the wind, or the largest part of the mainspring uncoiling, it runs normally. At the end it isn't getting enough power, so less kick, less swing (105 degrees), faster movement. Adjusting for this is called adjusting for isochronism, and it is more specialized than normal servicing and repair. Whether it be that your watch has to fight its way through grime or something else, it sounds like your power curve is starting in the middle and spending a lot of time at the end.

Hope I didn't lose you too early on that.


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## KITROBASKIN (Dec 10, 2013)

Very Cool


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## gunga (Dec 10, 2013)

Just finished reading. Great post! I have an Archimede with ETA 2824-2 and notice the smoother 8bps sweep vs 6bps on my Seikos. Do the ETAs require more servicing? I heard that the Seiko 7s26 can go forever with minimal servicing.


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## Monocrom (Dec 11, 2013)

gunga said:


> Just finished reading. Great post! I have an Archimede with ETA 2824-2 and notice the smoother 8bps sweep vs 6bps on my Seikos. Do the ETAs require more servicing? I heard that the Seiko 7s26 can go forever with minimal servicing.



Seiko's 7s26 movement does have a reputation for durability and reliability. But unfortunately, not accuracy. (And I mean compared to other mechanical watch movements with a self-winding rotor.) A 7s26 won't last forever with just a bit of servicing. But any even minimally competent independent watchmaker can service the movement. However, it's no secret in the watch community that if you send an old Seiko with a 7s26 movement back to Seiko for servicing ... Seiko simply opens up the case, throws away the entire movement, and simply replaces it with a brands new 7s26 one. That's how inexpensive the entire movement is. Replacement is actually cheaper than taking the existing movement apart and properly servicing it.

The ironic thing with mechanical watches is that you typically get _less_ durability as the price goes up. If you include quartz watches, the discrepancy is even worse. A No-Name $11 quartz model from Wal-Mart will put some mechanical watches costing six figures to absolute shame, as far as durability is concerned. 

ETA watches don't require more servicing. Like the 7s26 for Japan, ETA's 2824 is also an absolute workhorse. Though available in 4 different grades, and often modified by various Swiss watch brands. Sometimes little more than a new, engraved, rotor. Sometimes extensive modifications that it sometimes no longer looks like an ETA movement. And much of the time, ETA does the modifying themselves; based on who the client is and which modifications they order. Once again, even a semi-skilled independent watchmaker should be able to very easily service any grade of any common ETA movement. Not just the 2824. But expect higher servicing prices if the movement is inside of a luxury brand timepiece. Or, if it was heavily modified. 

Unfortunately, ETA is a Swatch Group brand. And the head of the S.G. has decided that ETA will no longer provide any movements to any non-Swatch Group brands. The S.G. has already reduced the amounts that ETA sells to other brands. (Recently, Steinhart ordered around 4,000 movements. The shipment they received was only 500.) 

Other Swiss movement maker (not part of the S.G.) are trying to take up the slack. Sellita in particular. Having been a sub-contractor that used to make ETA movements for ETA, Sellita has the knowledge to take up some of the slack. Though definitely not all.

Archimede isn't part of the Swatch Group. Though thankfully the 2824-2 is common as dirt in the industry. (A quality movement though.) Servicing won't be an issue anytime soon as donor watches from countless different brands will be around for use of spare movement parts by independent watchmakers. Though expect prices of a typical servicing to go up quite a bit due to this artificial situation in which Demand is going to remain constant, but Supply will be significantly less due to ETA only providing its movements to other Swatch Group brands from now on.


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## Bullzeyebill (Dec 11, 2013)

Are their markings on a case back, or on the movement to tell the different grades of 2824-2's?

Bill


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## cprrckwlf (Dec 11, 2013)

Bullzeyebill said:


> Are their markings on a case back, or on the movement to tell the different grades of 2824-2's?
> 
> Bill



No. The various grades will have differences in materials used, types of shock protection, and some other things -- you can very quickly google for a chart and then google to see what each thing uses -- but it isn't 100% reliable. 

Example: standard and elabore grades use an etachocs shock absorber, top and chronometer use the better incabloc. But some manufacturers put out standards that they have upgraded to incabloc. 

Chronometers will have serial numbers and should be obvious, but the other 3 won't be. 

If you really want to know the best thing to do is contact the manufacturer and ask.


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## Monocrom (Dec 11, 2013)

Bullzeyebill said:


> Are their markings on a case back, or on the movement to tell the different grades of 2824-2's?
> 
> Bill



cprrckwlf beat me to it. The first 3 grades are not always easy to tell apart. I know some collectors who specifically buy a watch with "chronometer" printed across the bottom of the dial ... simply to be 100% sure that they're getting the highest grade.


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## Bullzeyebill (Dec 26, 2013)

What do you think the range of prices would be for a high grade 2824-2 watch?

Bill


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## Monocrom (Dec 26, 2013)

It's difficult to come up with a range based on what you get, for what you pay. Once one barely dips a toe into the Entry-Level Luxury Tier of watch brands (based on prices alone), it becomes completely all about what the Market will bear. Has nothing to do with what you're getting in exchange for the Asking Price. Watch brands in the Entry-Level Luxury and higher tiers have frequent price hikes with zero improvements or often very minor improvements to the watches they offer. This is done because various watch brands know they can get away with it because consumers will still pay the inflated prices.

Least expensive one out there right now is the Chronometer grade silver-dial Tissot T-Tempo (Ref.# T0604081103100) at MSRP $1125. And I mean that one specific model from Tissot. Prices shoot up from there, once again solely based on what the Market will bear in terms of how much various watch brands can charge for not only Chronometer-grade 2824-2s but for bog standard versions of that same movement. Bremont, only in existance for 11 years (infant status in the watch industry), charges over $5000 for the same Chronometer-grade 2824-2 in their lowest-priced entry Bremont model Solo. The Solo isn't even shock-resistant. It's a very basic Three-Hander with a date feature. Nothing special at all. Yet, a brand with practically no history can get away with charging that much over a company like Tissot. A company with a real history in the watch world. 

But we're not knocking on the ceiling yet. Next is the IWC Mark XVII. The latest version of the absolutely iconic Mark XII. Difference is, one of the big reasons why that version was iconic is because it had a JLC movement inside. Jaeger-LeCoultre over the decades has supplied movements for some of the most sought after brands in existence. Including the handful of recognized High-End brands. Brands that make Rolex look downright cheap, by comparison. (In terms of both price and quality.) JLCs movements are beyond legendary. IWCs current Mark XVII doesn't benefit from having a JLC movement. It's a higher grade ETA 2824-2 inside. While available in a chronograph version, the basic Three-Hander Mark XVII has the 2824-2 inside. And costs even more than the Solo from Bremont. 

There's truly nothing special about the Bremont or IWC compared to the Tissot. Nothing at all. The difference in prices is literally all about Marketing and Reputations. Truth is, the IWC isn't even the highest-priced one out there with a better grade of 2824-2 inside of it.

Basically, $1125 (for that one Tissot model) to well into the 5-figure range for a Chronometer-grade movement.

Though, for a basic Three-Hander with a basic date feature; anything above $3K for a Top-Grade or Chronometer-grade timepiece just seems silly. Some enthusiasts/collectors draw the line at $5K. But honestly, that's just too much for a Top-grade or Chronometer-grade ETA 2824-2. Anything above $3K, and the watch needs to have something special about it to make it worth getting. Something special other than the movement.

If we factor in a Top-grade version as well, we're realistically talking $1K - $5K (again, assuming something truly special about a watch with an Asking Price above $3K). An enthusiast/collector could easily pay above $5K for a nothing-special basic Three-Hander with a higher-grade ETA 2824-2, if they wished. Though yes ... it looks silly doing so.


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## KITROBASKIN (Dec 26, 2013)

24 second video... Accurate to the second. (Supplemental lighting provided by an ~$18 Xtar wk26)

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=7Zk_o2...top_uri=/watch?v=7Zk_o2XJmH4&feature=youtu.be


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## Bullzeyebill (Dec 26, 2013)

Thanks for the video. Nothing special here, a quartz movement will be more accurate than any automatic movement, Most of my watches have quartz movements, but non of them satisfy me.

Bill


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## RTR882 (Dec 27, 2013)

Monocrom, what's your opinion of the Ulysse Nardin Marine Chronometer? I love the looks but don't know much about the quality inside.

Best,
Bob


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## KITROBASKIN (Dec 27, 2013)

Bullzeyebill said:


> ...but none of them satisfy me.
> 
> Bill



Satisfaction with a tool that is so close to you, physically and perhaps mentally, is a great thing, and worth substantial outlay. And the marvel of precision engineering, that too. The issue of paying 5 times or more than it really costs to build is where I question. It is nice to support craftsmen deserving respect, however. And it looks like a hobby with some resale value. Good on all of you so inclined.

The Atomic Solar that I'm using now will have a battery failure at some time, but when? It has already lasted longer than previous watch batteries by a good margin. And where could I get the battery replaced? I have replaced some watch batteries myself in years past.

I was given a basic, Tudor Oyster back in the 70's by my grandparents; Classic, subtle looks. Scratched the acrylic lens but worked well. Wound it every day. Stopped using it when a Seiko Automatic caught my eye. Now that I have a son that may want to inherit it, I pulled it out to check to see if it still worked, but then decided to take it to a Rolex service facility. They wanted to charge a lot of money for a cleaning, etc. but it does work fine. I had them polish the lens, looks nice.

A friend of a friend works on fine watches so I called him. He looked at it and said basically I did not have to have it serviced IF it kept decent time, but what I'm hearing here is that keeping it lubricated is the proper thing to do. It's just that the Rolex people want to take it apart and check and replace worn parts. The resale value for this watch can't really justify it in my mind. What to do?


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## Monocrom (Dec 27, 2013)

RTR882 said:


> Monocrom, what's your opinion of the Ulysse Nardin Marine Chronometer? I love the looks but don't know much about the quality inside.
> 
> Best,
> Bob



Honestly, the design of their watches is not my cup of tea. From those collectors I have interacted with, they respect the brand's history and the quality/construction of the UN models. Along with the cal. 118 movement. (Especially the enamel dials of the Marine Chronometers.) Have heard that the 38mm versions wear bigger than they are.

Sorry I couldn't be of more help.


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## Monocrom (Dec 27, 2013)

KITROBASKIN said:


> Satisfaction with a tool that is so close to you, physically and perhaps mentally, is a great thing, and worth substantial outlay. And the marvel of precision engineering, that too. The issue of paying 5 times or more than it really costs to build is where I question. It is nice to support craftsmen deserving respect, however. And it looks like a hobby with some resale value. Good on all of you so inclined.
> 
> The Atomic Solar that I'm using now will have a battery failure at some time, but when? It has already lasted longer than previous watch batteries by a good margin. And where could I get the battery replaced? I have replaced some watch batteries myself in years past.
> 
> ...



If it's a family heirloom, chances are it's going to be worth it. (Though obviously not from a purely financial point of view.)

Also, the reason why mechanical watches can last decades upon decades without routine servicing (about once every 5-7 years) is because they're tossed into a drawer and barely if ever worn. Mechanical/automatic watches suffer from a weird characteristic... They can keep accurate time (by mechanical timepiece standards) for decades, while corroding or rusting away on the inside. Until one day, the watch completely gives up the ghost; and either can't be fixed or fixing it would require months of work and thousands of dollars in repair fees.

So, a vintage watch that works and keeps time accurately is a really **** poor indicator of whether or not it needs to be serviced. Any mechanical/automatic watch that hasn't been given a routine servicing for over 7 years, it's going to cost more to properly service it. A decade or two without servicing?... It's going to cost more because chances are that internal parts will need to be replaced. Rolex's price-quote actually might not have been all that outrageous. But before agreeing to pay it, take the vintage Tudor to a skilled and experienced independent watchmaker. (One with experience working on Rolex watches.) Have him open it up in front of you and get a price-quote from him. But yeah, after all these years it's going to cost you to get it properly serviced.

It's actually a typical misconception that mechanical/automatic watches are far more durable than they really are. And yes, they need to be properly oiled. Otherwise you have gears grinding on each other without proper lubrication. Once again, while that's going on, the watch will appear to work perfectly fine; sometimes for many years. But the internals of the movement are slowly destroying themselves.

Another example, a personal one, Dad's old Oldsmobile Cutlass Supreme was over a decade old when he let me borrow and drive it as a younger man. It had an oil leak and needed oil put in about as often as gasoline. So, that's what it did. Car worked fine. Few weeks later, Dad took it back because he needed it. He chewed me out for flooding the engine with oil. So he cleaned out the engine. What I didn't know is, he put in only one quart of oil for the next several weeks. When I borrowed it again, Dad neglected to mention the fact that he stopped putting oil in the engine. Keep in mind he never fixed the leak. 

Sure enough, by the time I borrowed it again, the engine had been running on fumes for awhile and was basically bone dry. It was also basically grinding itself apart due to the lack of oil. It stopped at the bottom of the expressway Exit ramp. Yeah, I'll spare you the choice words I had for him after finding out that he hadn't bothered putting anymore oil into it for a few weeks. He knew the engine was bone dry, knew the leak was never fixed, but gave me the keys anyway. Yeah...

Well, for the first hour after I drove it; it seemed fine. Just a bit sluggish, but fine. Then really sluggish. Then dead on the road. 

Chances are that's pretty much what's happening inside your vintage Tudor. But at a much slower pace. A car is a mechanical thing, so is a vintage watch with gears and springs inside. Mechanical things need proper and routine lubrication.


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## KITROBASKIN (Dec 27, 2013)

Monochrom:
To my ears your words ring true. Thanks for taking the time to explain this.


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## Monocrom (Dec 27, 2013)

KITROBASKIN said:


> Monocrom:
> To my ears your words ring true. Thanks for taking the time to explain this.



Happy to help. There is so much misinformation out there. If I can help out just a handful of fellow CPFers with this topic, then it was worth making.


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## gunga (Dec 27, 2013)

The info is great. I did not know about the servicing of mechanical watches (time ranges etc). I'll be sure to keep that in mind.


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## KITROBASKIN (Apr 1, 2014)

http://www.gizmag.com/christophe-claret-puts-impossible-escapement-in-the-maestoso/31418/

Link to a short article of a watch with an interesting movement. Christophe Claret Escapement


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## fridgemagnet (Apr 1, 2014)

I would really like to know which non-spring drive Seiko movements were the best for accuracy, and which models had those movements.
The only one I know of is the 6159-7001 dive watch, which was supposed to have a very high quality movement.
I have a Citizen eco-drive - Citizen mechanical movements would be of interest too.


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## bigchelis (Apr 8, 2014)

Thank you for the Videos and information. Very nice Tissot watch you reffernce too!

I just purchased my first expensive watch ever. A Seiko SBDC007 Shogun Titanium Diver. Not sure why but to me the movement seems adequate but the Titanium and lume of the dials and simplicity of the watch is what made me pull the trigger on paypal. 

Best,
bigC


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## Monocrom (Apr 8, 2014)

Happy to help.

The Shogun has definitely developed a cult following among watch enthusiasts/collectors.


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## cw_mi (Apr 10, 2014)

Monocrom,
Great and very informative write up. Thanks for posting that up. I'm a watch newb for sure. Got into it about three in a half years ago. Started buying up stuff before I really knew what I liked. I tried quartz , manual wind , and auto's. Also started to get into being a "movement" snob. After a while I figured what I really liked and sold off some. Ended up keeping an Omega Seamaster 300 GMT (2234.50) , a Lum Tec M51 , an Olivier Bronze diver, and a generic Italian style homage watch, that actually has a Swiss ETA 6497 movement in it. Paid dearly for that. When it comes down to it now, I wear what I like and don't really care what the movements are. My preferences are autos , but am okay with a manual wind. No quartz for me! 
My next watch purchases will be a Panerai, either 510 , 312, or 320 an Omega Planet Ocean (orange bezel) , and if I can find one at a decent price would love a vintage Omega Seamaster DeVille with a black dial , like Don Draper has in the series Mad Men.


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## Monocrom (Apr 10, 2014)

Glad to hear you enjoyed this thread.


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## ganymede (Apr 11, 2014)

Monocrom,

Thanks for posting this, I was active on thepurists.com but I have moved on since they moved to a new site.


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## Monocrom (Apr 12, 2014)

Glad to be of service.


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