# NEW XTAR DRAGON VP4 Plus analyzing charger



## stephenk (Sep 3, 2016)

I'm surprised there isn't a thread on this already, but XTAR's website has details on the forthcoming DRAGON VP4 Plus charger.
http://www.xtar.cc/products_detail/productId=155.html
This appears to be a 4 channel analyzing charger than can charge 10440 14500 14650 16340 17335 17500 17670 18350 18490 18500 18650 22650 25500 26650 32650 AAAA AAA AA A SC C D at either 0.5, 1, or 2A.
It can do charge, discharge, charge capacity measurements.
It can measure internal resistance. 
It can even store results on a memory card. 

I'm sure it won't be cheap, but expect it will be very popular on CPF!
It is good to finally see a charger with the analyzing functionality of the OPUS and Liitokala, but with XTAR's quality.


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## kreisl (Sep 3, 2016)

sweet, how many xtar chargers do we need! :twothumbs


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## Collins (Sep 3, 2016)

This is great! I had been looking around for a charger and wanted to get an Xtar 4 bay as they seem to be excellent quality, but wanted to be able to charge 4 batteries at 1 Amp instead of .5 Amp for 4.

So been looking around and was going to get their 2 bay Rocket, since it can charge at 2 Amp just in case I needed to charge at 2 Amps for some reason since it was just 2 bay.

I'll wait and get this charger instead.

Also looking at getting the Orbtronic 3500Mah 18650 battery.


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## Collins (Sep 3, 2016)

I do wish they would put the screen on the bottom. It just makes it easier to view the screen. Also better to put the screen at an angle.


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## ven (Sep 3, 2016)

Looks pretty much a must buy, few little gripes but not enough to put me off. Needs a lower rate, ideally would have also liked a 1.5a rate thrown in. Screen is too fussy, after all a 4 bay charger is never going to be small, would prefer if they added some width for a display above each channel. Save a fussy and not too friendly on the eye type screen..............Also a little extra size would aid any heat from using the 4 bays at 1a. Still i like it enough and it has a pretty cool name.....................well providing it does not end up breathing fire that is!!!


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## seery (Sep 3, 2016)

Going to wait on HKJ's review before pulling the trigger. 

But hopefully this is a good one.


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## samgab (Sep 3, 2016)

They don't state, and the picture doesn't show it, but in the description they keep going on about connecting a 3S battery pack, so I'm wondering if they have an XT-60 connector on the back or side... If not, how are these 3S battery packs to be connected?

_"...main functions of DRAGON: battery pack ...charging..."
"It can intelligently distribute the power when charging your 11.1V/3s battery pack, ..."
"With 11.1V/3s port, DRAGON can charge your 11.1V/3s battery pack with 1.0A current in a balance way to make sure that all batteries of your battery pack can be fully charged."_


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## StandardBattery (Sep 3, 2016)

Looks interesting, but strangely limited in some areas. The idea of including charging for 3S packs is cool and could be very useful, I hope in the end they do 2S packs as well.

Maybe the best thing will be the price, such that the VP4 plus will become the default recommended charger for newbies getting into flashlights since it covers a lot of the basics, includes some analysis, and even some advanced usage with different cell types, high charge rates, and battery-pack.

Still I'm hoping that after they finish this one they will announce the VP4 plus plus. Since the original VP2 and VP4 are a better style with better displays, and hopefully would have less limitations in charge current and voltage selection. However, since they decided to call this one "VP4 plus" I'm guessing I'm just dreaming on an extended version of the original VP2 (A true classic).


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## TinderBox (UK) (Sep 3, 2016)

I have more chargers than teeth. 

John.


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## MAD777 (Sep 3, 2016)

TinderBox (UK) said:


> I have more chargers than teeth.
> 
> John.


I have 8 batteries in two LiitoKala 500's in the analyzer mode right now. I also have my GyrFalcon 8-bay charger filled with batteries. The 2-bay VP4 is taking a break. I recently gave away a LiitoKala 500 to my son. 

Maybe I should have stuck to flashlights that only have to be shaken, LOL.


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## LetThereBeLight! (Sep 3, 2016)

kreisl said:


> sweet, how many xtar chargers do we need! :twothumbs



Um, a flashaholic would answer "Several are not enough", whereas a normal person would answer, "Why would I need more than one?"


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## StandardBattery (Sep 3, 2016)

LetThereBeLight! said:


> Um, a flashaholic would answer "Several are not enough", whereas a normal person would answer, "Why would I need more than one?"


True enough. It's hard enough to explain a flashlight collection, but a charger collection.... don't even try.


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## Timothybil (Sep 3, 2016)

I really like the current VC4, but I wish it had a 0.25A charge rate. I think that 0.5A is just a little too much for my 10440 cells. I essentially bought a VP2 just for charging my 10440s because it does have a 0.25A rate. It is just a bonus that it also will do LiFePO4 cells as well as 4.3v cells.


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## samgab (Sep 3, 2016)

I have no need of the .25A charge rate, but I just ordered a VP2 too because I have need of a charger I can use in my work vehicle. When the 18650 lights I use on the job run flat, I can charge up a pair of 18650's as I travel between jobs.


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## StandardBattery (Sep 4, 2016)

samgab said:


> I have no need of the .25A charge rate, but I just ordered a VP2 too because I have need of a charger I can use in my work vehicle. When the 18650 lights I use on the job run flat, I can charge up a pair of 18650's as I travel between jobs.


In mobile use, just make sure the voltage termination switch on the back does not get moved.


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## sidecross (Sep 4, 2016)

I gave a rough inventory of my lights, chargers, compliment of batteries, and power banks; I have an equal amount of each. 

I am always in the market for good chargers, batteries, power banks, and flashlights and usually in that order.


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## kaptain_zero (Sep 4, 2016)

Interesting charger... 

Some features missing, making room for a version 2. :devil:

1. As someone above mentioned, a 1 and 2 cell lipo pack capability would have been nice... not just a 3 cell.

2. Also as someone mentioned earlier, a lower output for those tiny cells.

3. The ability to select a "storage" charge... as in charge or discharge to a 70%ish charge when batteries will not be used for a while. This is a common feature on hobby chargers.... why not on a do everything charger like this one? 


I'll still be in the market for one of these if it lives up to its specs.. but those 3 missing features would have made it so much better, and if they do bring it out, I guess I'll be in the market for one of those too. 

Regards

Christian


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## CelticCross74 (Sep 6, 2016)

its an Xtar. I will buy one of these literally the minute they go on sale.


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## stephenk (Sep 7, 2016)

CelticCross74 said:


> its an Xtar. I will buy one of these literally the minute they go on sale.


I think I know what one of my Christmas presents will be now!


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## akhyar (Sep 7, 2016)

Xtar build quality with the functions of Opus BT C3100/Liitokala Lii500.
I'm in


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## Newlumen (Sep 7, 2016)

Anyknow the estimate cost on the xtar vp4 plus ??


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## ChrisGarrett (Sep 7, 2016)

Newlumen said:


> Anyknow the estimate cost on the xtar vp4 plus ??



Their VP2 came out at $50, so I could see the VP4 being that much, but there's now a lot more competition on the market and they perhaps could price it in the low 40s, would be my semi-educated guess. Especially if they're targeting the Opus BT-3100/3400 market.

Chris


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## MAD777 (Sep 7, 2016)

My last two LiitoKala Engineer 500 were about $25 each. Came on a slow boat from China. I can't see paying double when I can get two analyzers for that price.


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## stephenk (Sep 7, 2016)

MAD777 said:


> My last two LiitoKala Engineer 500 were about $25 each. Came on a slow boat from China. I can't see paying double when I can get two analyzers for that price.


I would expect this to be considerably better built than the Lii-500 and Opus. Hopefully no noisy fans, flaky displays, inaccurate(ish) volt meter.


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## Newlumen (Sep 7, 2016)

ChrisGarrett said:


> Their VP2 came out at $50, so I could see the VP4 being that much, but there's now a lot more competition on the market and they perhaps could price it in the low 40s, would be my semi-educated guess. Especially if they're targeting the Opus BT-3100/3400 market.
> 
> Chris



Cool. I am interested in this product, because it came with a pair of probes, and other functions.. I will be patient and wait.


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## Newlumen (Sep 7, 2016)

I do have vc4 which i am still using.. I like it alot. Fully charged the lg mj1, check the voltage with the cheap multi meter read 4.18v.


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## ChrisGarrett (Sep 7, 2016)

Newlumen said:


> Cool. I am interested in this product, because it came with a pair of probes, and other functions.. I will be patient and wait.



Yeah, I'm an Xtar fanboy, but I think that I'll pass on this one. I'm looking at the Panther for $18 and might go that route, or buy a MC1+ ANT USB jobbie to leave at my GF's place.

I was just guessing on the price, but I think that $40-$50 price point is where it will fall.

Chris


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## MAD777 (Sep 7, 2016)

stephenk said:


> I would expect this to be considerably better built than the Lii-500 and Opus. Hopefully no noisy fans, flaky displays, inaccurate(ish) volt meter.


I also have an XSTAR VP2 and it works fine. No better than the LiitoKala's. It's really plain Jane, lacking all features of a modern charger, and is much less flexible. However, it charges OK.


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## sidecross (Sep 7, 2016)

stephenk said:


> I would expect this to be considerably better built than the Lii-500 and Opus. Hopefully no noisy fans, flaky displays, inaccurate(ish) volt meter.


I would agree.

I have the XTAR VP2, the OPUS BT3100, and other chargers as well, but I have not been impressed with the usefulness of the readout information with the chargers that have it.


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## CuriousOne (Sep 8, 2016)

I have modded Turnigy Accucell 6-80 to whole lot new level:

1. Now it has OLED screen, instead of crappy blue-white LCD.
2. MOSFETs now have large heatsink, so no fan is required.
3. PSU now is built-in.
4. Coaxial connector for balance plug added - bye bye flimsy JST-IX connectors.


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## kreisl (Sep 8, 2016)

If it costs up to 69US$ MAP, then i'll bite.

Xtar quality is nice but i don't want to fork out more than 70 bucks for it.


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## seery (Sep 8, 2016)

Really looking forward to this new cell filler, but $45USD is the most I'd pay.


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## markr6 (Sep 8, 2016)

ven said:


> Looks pretty much a must buy, few little gripes but not enough to put me off. Needs a lower rate, ideally would have also liked a 1.5a rate thrown in. Screen is too fussy, after all a 4 bay charger is never going to be small, would prefer if they added some width for a display above each channel.



Good points. Looks like I'm still holding the BT-C3100 at the top. No one seems to beat that for what I want in a charger.

$49.99 seems like a good guess.


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## StandardBattery (Sep 8, 2016)

OK i'll join the pool.... just in case there are prizes 
I dont expect it to be more than $45, but i'm putting my bet on $39.99

OK a bit optomistic maybe given the current handling, but XTAR i think can do it and remain the volume leader. Many people looking at this charger, at least initially, will already own 2 or 3 similar chargers/analyzers so a good price will get attention. XTAR does not usually have introductory prices, but being late to the game maybe they will try that this time.


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## Newlumen (Sep 8, 2016)

StandardBattery said:


> OK i'll join the pool.... just in case there are prizes
> I dont expect it to be more than $45, but i'm putting my bet on $39.99
> 
> OK a bit optomistic maybe given the current handling, but XTAR i think can do it and remain the volume leader. Many people looking at this charger, at least initially, will already own 2 or 3 similar chargers/analyzers so a good price will get attention. XTAR does not usually have introductory prices, but being late to the game maybe they will try that this time.



There is no way it will cost $39.99. I am guessing $50- $55.


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## seery (Sep 8, 2016)

Newlumen said:


> There is no way it will cost $39.99. I am guessing $50- $55.



Maybe MSRP, but no way the street price will be $55.

At that high a price, they'll lose a lot of their market potential.


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## akhyar (Sep 8, 2016)

seery said:


> Maybe MSRP, but no way the street price will be $55.
> 
> At that high a price, they'll lose a lot of their market potential.



+1
Considering the analysing chargers of Opus BT C3100 and Liitokala Li500 can be had for below 30 bucks from China, street price above 50 bucks will turn away some of their potential customers


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## CelticCross74 (Sep 10, 2016)

I have 3 Xtar chargers. All 3 have functioned flawlessly through over a thousand charge cycles. I expect this new charger analyzer to be very accurate and not require 3 revisions to correct errors in the firmware etc.


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## dekelsey61 (Sep 10, 2016)

Hi,
Has anyone heard when this charger is going to be released? Just says coming soon.
Thank you.


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## kreisl (Sep 10, 2016)




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## StandardBattery (Sep 10, 2016)

kreisl said:


> in stock!!
> 
> http://xtarlight.pt/18-xtarlight-carregadores/102-xtar-vp4-plus.html


That's a crazy price if real. I never expected that, I'll wait to see what XTR Direct lists it for.

Actually using their price for the regular VP4 model to determine the US price difference, the price list of 120euros would map to roughly $90 US. That at least seems possible, but we'll have to wait and see.


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## xtibi (Sep 10, 2016)

dekelsey61 said:


> Hi,
> Has anyone heard when this charger is going to be released? Just says coming soon.
> Thank you.


XTAR member said to me: "It will be first showed on the Paris vaper exhibition."

Anyway, if that crazy price is real, I'll buy another SkyRC MC3000. [emoji6]


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## stephenk (Sep 10, 2016)

xtibi - what is the flashlight used in your avatar? Nice pencil beam!


I was hoping for less than US$75 (AU$100), but it looks like that isn't the case for now 
Happy to be sent one for review XTAR


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## kaptain_zero (Sep 10, 2016)

xtibi said:


> XTAR member said to me: "It will be first showed on the Paris vaper exhibition."
> 
> Anyway, if that crazy price is real, I'll buy another SkyRC MC3000. [emoji6]



15 days to go until the vape expo in Paris, and hopefully by then we'll have something more concrete to go on.


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## david57strat (Sep 10, 2016)

LetThereBeLight! said:


> Um, a flashaholic would answer "Several are not enough", whereas a normal person would answer, "Why would I need more than one?"



One can never have too many chargers - especially if you're trying to charge multiple batteries, simultaneously .

I have sixteen chargers, twelve of which are XTAR units (the two newest ones were a pair of XTAR ANT-MC1 Plus).




This picture is missing the second SV2 and the new pair of ANT-MC1 Plus chargers.

The second newest purchases were a pair of SV2 chargers, which I love 



The SV2s see quite a bit of use. 

And finally, the ANT MC1 Plus units:






The big deal breaker, in purchasing a VP4, was the fact that it didn't have any of the amazing features that the VP2 had. I'm not even sure why they called it a VP4. It wasn't a VP2 with two additional charging slots. I passed on that one. 

I'm delighted to hear that they now support 1 Amp/Hour (x4 slots) charge rate (or even 2 Amps/Hour x 2, if so desired). Finally!

I HAVE to get one of these babies, when they become available. If I like it enough, I'll pick up a second one (I hate odd numbers lol).

I remember a time when all of my chargers used to be able to fit, side by side, in a single workspace lol. Those days are long gone. 




The VP2 (third from the left) was my very first XTAR charger. I've been hooked on their products, ever since


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## seery (Sep 10, 2016)

That is sheer madness! ... [in a good way]


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## xtibi (Sep 11, 2016)

It's the Olight SR95S UT, which I sold it and I bought the replacement M3XS-UT Javelot.  (about the same lumens and candela, but less weight especially when used with 2 x 18500 batteries).
In my opinion US$75 is way to much for the XTAR Dragon VP4 Plus, because MC3000 is about US$95-100, and charge current range is 0.05A - 3.00A on each slot and it has many more options.



stephenk said:


> xtibi - what is the flashlight used in your avatar? Nice pencil beam!
> 
> 
> I was hoping for less than US$75 (AU$100), but it looks like that isn't the case for now
> Happy to be sent one for review XTAR


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## write2dgray (Sep 12, 2016)

Interesting charger in that it can measure IR for cells and externally, acting like a internal resistance meter and voltmeter with proper probes. It can also charge 3S packs. I'd like to see some pictures of the connections for this.


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## markr6 (Sep 12, 2016)

Report of $89.95 from the other side. Not sure if that's confirmed, but if so...NO thanks!


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## ChrisGarrett (Sep 12, 2016)

markr6 said:


> Report of $89.95 from the other side. Not sure if that's confirmed, but if so...NO thanks!



Yep...might as well sport a bit more cash and get the SkyRC M Twenty Gazillion and figure out how to use it.

Chris


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## markr6 (Sep 12, 2016)

ChrisGarrett said:


> Yep...might as well sport a bit more cash and get the SkyRC M Twenty Gazillion and figure out how to use it.
> 
> Chris




HAHA _too _much for me. I wish I could trade in my drawer full of random chargers for another BT-C3100. Two of those and I'm set. Well, I still want a nice compact 2-bay for Li-Ion and NiMH with voltage readout and 2x1A for travel. VC2 Plus comes close; I guess I can live with that stupid % readout instead.


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## ChrisGarrett (Sep 12, 2016)

markr6 said:


> HAHA _too _much for me. I wish I could trade in my drawer full of random chargers for another BT-C3100. Two of those and I'm set. Well, I still want a nice compact 2-bay for Li-Ion and NiMH with voltage readout and 2x1A for travel. VC2 Plus comes close; I guess I can live with that stupid % readout instead.



I'm looking for a NiMH/li-ion two bay USB charger and the VC2 Plus Master/Master Plus looks OK for not a lot of money, to keep at my GF's place. My LaCrosse BC-700 is there, but that's 12v and I need something that I could use with a power bank I'll be leaving there.

Chris


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## kaptain_zero (Sep 12, 2016)

I'm going to sit on my hands until I SEE the price on the Dragon, if the suspected price pans out, I think the SV2 will be my choice (maybe even a pair). To be honest, I need another charger like I need a hole in the head, I have a Powerx 9000 at each computer I sit at for impromptu NiMH charging. A Nitecore 4bay with the LCD upstairs for the occasional Li-Ion, a WP2 in the trailer and 2 icharger hobby chargers + 1 Turnigy Accucel 6 hobby charger on my electronics bench downstairs, never mind a plethora of cheap chargers that I use for those "in a bind" moments, but only with a watchful eye and one of my trusty Fluke multimeters... or my Extech... or my Vintage...... oh never mind.... I guess I can afford the Dragon, but I won't gain anything I really really need. 

My bigger problem is finding quality Li-Ion cells at a reasonable cost in Canada.

Regards

Kaptain "Back to sitting on my hands" Zero


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## ven (Sep 12, 2016)

I will be surprised if much over $60 , if it is I am out as I don't need it. I still have a new in the box xp4 due to having too many chargers as it is. However I am always tempted just as I am with flashlights :laughing:


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## seery (Sep 12, 2016)

I just ordered another VP2.


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## write2dgray (Sep 13, 2016)

I've been in contact with the manufacturer and can share:

"The MSRP is $89.99, so the retail price should be $98.99."

Full specs. and manual are not yet available, but here are a few more pictures showing display and operation.


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## markr6 (Sep 13, 2016)

Well I guess it has to be pricey given the extra functions, but not for me.

What's going on with that Li-Polymer pack? Or what is it?


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## HKJ (Sep 13, 2016)

write2dgray said:


>



Looks like somebody made a mistake with the wires and probably also with the display.


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## ven (Sep 13, 2016)

Liking the beefy size and quality look, still not liking the price! We will see, once it drops or maybe import closer to $60 I will bite.


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## ven (Sep 13, 2016)

seery said:


> I just ordered another VP2.




Nice choice, I use my vp2 these days predominantly for my 4.35 cells, my vp1 is my daily used work charger . My opus is my daily home charger, the vp4 gets used upstairs for surplus cells along with the wp6II when the surplus requires more surplus charging.


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## PapaLumen (Sep 13, 2016)

% readout instead of V, don't like that. Will it only charge a 3s lipo through the balance leads? That's going to take quite a while...


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## markr6 (Sep 13, 2016)

PapaLumen said:


> % readout instead of V, don't like that.



I HATE that, but will have to live with it on the VC2 Plus I just ordered. I liked everything else about the charger.


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## ven (Sep 13, 2016)

PapaLumen said:


> % readout instead of V, don't like that. Will it only charge a 3s lipo through the balance leads? That's going to take quite a while...



I was hoping you could swap the % and the V read out, if not then its pretty much a deal breaker.............V readout is one of the most important factors in a charger for me.


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## david57strat (Sep 13, 2016)

kreisl said:


> in stock!!
> 
> http://xtarlight.pt/18-xtarlight-carregadores/102-xtar-vp4-plus.html


$136 USD is just crazy.

There's an XTAR Direct store, just five minutes away from me. I'll have to drop in and ask them when they might be expecting this model.

On another note, looks like they're going to be carrying the Mec Army stuff, too. When I walked in, some days ago, to buy a pair of ANT-MC1 Plus chargers, I saw some window display racks, but the didn't have any product, yet. May have to take a look at some of those products (when they're available), to satisfy my curiosity .


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## markr6 (Sep 13, 2016)

ven said:


> I was hoping you could swap the % and the V read out, if not then its pretty much a deal breaker.............V readout is one of the most important factors in a charger for me.



I'm wondering, could you just do a test while charging and measure the voltage with a DMM and record the %...then assume they would always match? Or is it (I'm assuming) not that accurate? For example, when the charger says 80%, measure with a DMM. If it says 4.08v, then you know 80% always equals 4.08v.


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## ven (Sep 13, 2016)

markr6 said:


> I'm wondering, could you just do a test while charging and measure the voltage with a DMM and record the %...then assume they would always match? Or is it (I'm assuming) not that accurate? For example, when the charger says 80%, measure with a DMM. If it says 4.08v, then you know 80% always equals 4.08v.




Would not be accurate enough and would vary per cell imo. I am hoping its an option to change on screen..............HOPING.


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## kaptain_zero (Sep 13, 2016)

Yes, Lithium Ion and such cells are not linear in their power delivery. Voltage does NOT indicate capacity, nor the other way around. 

Based on the expected price, AND the poor mock up photo, I'm out.... I ordered an SV2 which will round out my collection of chargers for now. *IF* the price on this charger turns out to be significantly lower, AND it functions as good or better than expected, I might consider one..... But, at this point.... I'll go with what I have + an SV2.

Regards

Kaptain "Back to searching for obscure Li-Ion cells in Canada" Zero


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## markr6 (Sep 13, 2016)

kaptain_zero said:


> Yes, Lithium Ion and such cells are not linear in their power delivery. Voltage does NOT indicate capacity, nor the other way around.



Why do we always measure the voltage then and have that readout on chargers? I always followed the chart that says _generally _4.20=100%, 4.10v = 90%, 4.0= 80%, etc. It's been good enough for me. For newer batteries. I understand it's not liner and much different for an older 2000mAh cell.


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## ven (Sep 13, 2016)

markr6 said:


> Why do we always measure the voltage then and have that readout on chargers? I always followed the chart that says _generally _4.20=100%, 4.10v = 90%, 4.0= 80%, etc. It's been good enough for me.




There is a variable and that is the mah, as 80% or say 2600mah is a different voltage to 80% of a 3500mah if makes sense.

You could get a rough idea, but imho why should we with a $130 charger...........crazy!!!


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## markr6 (Sep 13, 2016)

ven said:


> There is a variable and that is the mah, as 80% or say 2600mah is a different voltage to 80% of a 3500mah if makes sense.
> 
> You could get a rough idea, but imho why should we with a $130 charger...........crazy!!!



That makes sense. Getting off topic, but I guess using a 2000mAh cell in a Zebralight would make the battery check useless then? I wonder what they used to calibrate that. 3400mAh as a standard? Same with any flashlight with a voltage test.


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## ven (Sep 13, 2016)

markr6 said:


> That makes sense. Getting off topic, but I guess using a 2000mAh cell in a Zebralight would make the battery check useless then? I wonder what they used to calibrate that. 3400mAh as a standard? Same with any flashlight with a voltage test.



I am presuming it will go off actual voltage rather than mah but that is a presumption. 3.6v of 2000mah and 3.6v of a 3400mah is still 3.6v if makes sense, just the 3400mah cell will have more mah getting down to 3v V the 2000mah cell.


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## StandardBattery (Sep 13, 2016)

i hope that prob set up is not accurate because if you want an accurte IR measurement with probles, i think you are going to need a 4wire system, unless then allow for some calibration.


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## kaptain_zero (Sep 14, 2016)

I just got a promotional from Xtar. It included a small picture that shows the charger from various sides. Looks like they are only accommodating 3cell packs so it won't be useful for most hobbyists who usually have 2, 3, 4, 5 and 6 cell packs they use on a regular basis.

I have a few cells, but mostly I run 2 cell packs and I can series them to 4 and 6 cell packs. If a single pack or cell fails, I can just replace the failed 2 cell pack which is a LOT cheaper than replacing a 6 cell pack that has one failed cell in it.

So, most serious RC type hobby use... it's out. For accurate voltage measurements, I seriously doubt it will match my Fluke 87Vs. 

For analyzing, I think I'll stick with my Powerex 9000 for NiMH and my iChargers for everything else, they have been rock solid over the past 5+ years.

I did order an SV2, and I have a D4 + two Powerex 9000s, not to mention two iCharger 106B+ chargers and.... well.... I already have enough. 

OK ya'll say, "just get on with it"..... Here's the photo:








Regards

Christian


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## StandardBattery (Sep 14, 2016)

They have fixed the image with the probes compared with what was shown earlier.


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## david57strat (Sep 21, 2016)

I just took a look at the XTAR Direct website, and evidently, this is still a pre-order item, with expected product availability in mid-October - and the official price is, in fact, $90 USD. That's a little step for me, but I'm still considering it.


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## markr6 (Sep 21, 2016)

david57strat said:


> and the official price is, in fact, $90 USD.



Ahhh we were a penny short. Too much for me then!


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## kaptain_zero (Sep 21, 2016)

Oh well, I guess I'm still out.


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## kreisl (Sep 21, 2016)

david57strat said:


> the official price is, in fact, $90 USD.


i am sure you will can get it cheaper from Banggood and Gearbest, they have special offers, sales, coupons all the time!

in any case you're getting XTAR quality with distributors all over the planet. 

$90 is the new price level of feature-laden chargers.

should be good!


----------



## PapaLumen (Sep 21, 2016)

kaptain_zero said:


> I just got a promotional from Xtar. It included a small picture that shows the charger from various sides. Looks like they are only accommodating 3cell packs so it won't be useful for most hobbyists who usually have 2, 3, 4, 5 and 6 cell packs they use on a regular basis.



Apart from not catering for 2s,4s,5s,6s If it only charges through the balance leads then 500ma is about the fastest you could charge it. Going to take ages on a 7000mah 3s lipo..


----------



## ven (Sep 21, 2016)

I use 2s anyway(like my toys to last a little longer and fast enough anyway for my uses), but even if i used 3s(compatible with the castle motor), i would still use the hobby charger anyway............can have up to 6a if needed although i stick with around 3.6a on my packs.


----------



## kaptain_zero (Sep 21, 2016)

PapaLumen said:


> Apart from not catering for 2s,4s,5s,6s If it only charges through the balance leads then 500ma is about the fastest you could charge it. Going to take ages on a 7000mah 3s lipo..



The photo clearly shows it charges through the main power cable with a T plug... I use XT60s so that would require an adapter. Thinking about it, I could also make an adapter for the balance port, but if the charger software cannot handle 2 or 1 cells... it's a moot point. Like you, I'll just continue to bung my batteries on a hobby charger. 

So... feature after feature is dismiss-able, leaving one to wonder what one is actually paying for. The probes have no calibration accounted for.... I suppose I could grab my Fluke 87V and compare them, but then I already have my 87V out.... and I know it's calibrated, so why bother. My iChargers already have the capability of testing capacity, putting cells into a storage charge and charging them for use. I have 2 iChargers and a Turnigy charger, so I don't need another charger to test cells that once a year when I want to see the state of all my cells.

Nope, I don't see any additional value to this charger... the lower cost Xtar chargers are great, and I would recommend them, but this particular unit was designed by the marketing dept., not the engineering dept. and it shows.

What WOULD be nice is an SV4 with voltage display instead of just % of charge.

Back to the bench....

Christian


----------



## AndreaW (Sep 21, 2016)

kaptain_zero said:


> voltage display instead of an approximate % of charge



Doesn't it include the voltage display? The specs on the web site say:

*LCD screen displays all information you want.*
Charging current
Battery & Battery Pack Status
Battery capacity percentage
Battery types and channels
Battery voltage
Battery resistance
CHARGE/TEST/REFRESH status
3S Pack/USB Output status
- See more at: http://www.xtar.cc/products_detail/productId=155.html#sthash.rBuHBPqL.dpuf


----------



## ChrisGarrett (Sep 21, 2016)

kreisl said:


> i am sure you will can get it cheaper from Banggood and Gearbest, they have special offers, sales, coupons all the time!
> 
> in any case you're getting XTAR quality with distributors all over the planet.
> 
> ...



At that price, I'd rather just pick up a SkyRC MC3000. It's a better charger. Even if it's priced at $80ish.

And I'm an Xtar fanboy.

Chris


----------



## kaptain_zero (Sep 21, 2016)

AndreaW said:


> Doesn't it include the voltage display? The specs on the web site say:
> 
> *LCD screen displays all information you want.*
> Charging current
> ...



Yes, this new Xtar includes it, I was suggesting that a 4 slot version of their SV2, which does not currently display voltage, would be a much more useful addition to their lineup and adding the voltage display instead of an approximate % would have made it even more useful.


----------



## ChrisGarrett (Sep 21, 2016)

kaptain_zero said:


> Yes, this new Xtar includes it, I was suggesting that a 4 slot version of their VC2, which does not currently display voltage, would be a much more useful addition to their lineup and adding the voltage display instead of an approximate % would have made it even more useful.



The four slot version of the VC2 is their VC4, which does display voltage readouts for all four channels, in groups of two. It's also got a current meter.

Chris


----------



## kaptain_zero (Sep 21, 2016)

Urghl...... I meant SV2.... not VC2...... I must have stared into a flashlight for too long....<sigh>


----------



## PapaLumen (Sep 21, 2016)

kaptain_zero said:


> The photo clearly shows it charges through the main power cable with a T plug... I use XT60s so that would require an adapter. Thinking about it, I could also make an adapter for the balance port, but if the charger software cannot handle 2 or 1 cells... it's a moot point. Like you, I'll just continue to bung my batteries on a hobby charger.



No, that lead in the pic is just lying there (with a deans connector by looks of things) , it's not plugged in. If you look around for pics of this charger you can see there is no connection on the side. 
I charge 2s, 3s and 4s lipos a lot so have a hobby charger for these with xt60 connectors on everything (except my traxxas ones).

You play with RC cars Ven? Just got myself a Traxxas Rustler VXL recently, use 2s with it. Fun but breaks often lol!


----------



## kaptain_zero (Sep 21, 2016)

Something tells me I should quit while I'm behind.......

Regards

Kaptain "Details..... Schmeetails...... I never get them right" Zero


----------



## StandardBattery (Sep 21, 2016)

ChrisGarrett said:


> At that price, I'd rather just pick up a SkyRC MC3000. It's a better charger. Even if it's priced at $80ish.
> 
> And I'm an Xtar fanboy.
> 
> Chris


Yup... actually even at a much cheaper price I just don't think I need this one, I picked up their SV2 for fun, but I like the VP2 style displays. I'm saving my pennies for the MC3000 so when all the bugs, crickets, moths, and dandelions have been shaken loose I'm ready. Sounds like it's getting close, but burned on the NC2500 I'm not in a hurry for this one that's even more complicated and harder to get fixed. I don't want to have to get it fixed, no patients for that these days with something that has had as much oversight as this one I'm surprised it still had so many issues. However, in the end, it has upgradable firmware, is very programmable, and should be something to easily last a decade once I do get it. I have to have something to look forward to so no hurry on my part. I'm lucky I was not around CPF when it finally started shipping or I would have been in on the first batch.


----------



## PapaLumen (Sep 22, 2016)

kaptain_zero said:


> Something tells me I should quit while I'm behind.......
> 
> Regards
> 
> Kaptain "Details..... Schmeetails...... I never get them right" Zero




Haha. Actually, reading the specs it states it can charge the 3s with 1A but most balance lead wires are very thin, usually only rated for about 500ma.


----------



## kaptain_zero (Sep 22, 2016)

Marketing Dept. calls Engineering Dept.: "Hey, can we advertise a 1A charge rate (if we divide 1 amp over three balance wires)"?

Regards

Kaptain "Suspicious" Zero


----------



## stephenk (Sep 23, 2016)

AndreaW said:


> Doesn't it include the voltage display? The specs on the web site say:
> 
> *LCD screen displays all information you want.*
> Charging current
> ...


But it doesn't state which functions show voltage.


----------



## kreisl (Sep 23, 2016)

Awesome!! 

Sold.

I am getting 4.


----------



## scintillator (Sep 23, 2016)

This is getting interesting.


----------



## oKtosiTe (Sep 23, 2016)

So what is it that makes this so much more expensive than the SV2? Does the addition of two slots, a beeper and some basic connectors really warrant more than doubling the price?


----------



## ven (Sep 23, 2016)

Me likey, but can i have a voltage readout when i place a cell in(i need this as a quick check, cant be bothered faffing with leads every time.......wont happen) then whilst charging etc till termination as one of the modes. I dont care for mah readout, i want to see voltage and know how much further to go that way. Just what i am used to..................


----------



## StandardBattery (Sep 23, 2016)

looks a little more interesting based on the video. if the street price gets to $50 they might have a solid mid+ tier charger.


----------



## ven (Sep 23, 2016)

StandardBattery said:


> looks a little more interesting based on the video. if the street price gets to $50 they might have a solid mid+ tier charger.



+1, tbh i dont know what my limit is on a charger i dont need but want............

Exchange rate is fubar right now, $50 used to be around £33 , now its about £40. I guess £50 on a charger i dont really need is enough for me, we will see as i like the size of this. 

I will get one, like my xtars and served me well over the years.


----------



## CelticCross74 (Sep 23, 2016)

video sold me I am getting 5


----------



## ven (Sep 23, 2016)

CelticCross74 said:


> video sold me I am getting 5




Dragons den..............:naughty:


----------



## Collins (Sep 24, 2016)

I'll be getting this. Had been looking for my first charger as I plan on getting an 18650 headlamp. Been wanting 4 bay that can charge at 1A. And didn't want the Opus that had a noisy fan. And so was stuck with looking at the no-name Lakita or something. Was hoping Xtar would come out with a 4-bay 1A charger, and here it is. 

It will probably be the only charger I have to get as I'd only need it for 18650 batteries and to maybe charge some AA NIMH a couple times a year for my game controllers.


----------



## Gauss163 (Sep 26, 2016)

At 3 times the price of the Opus BT-C3100 with little if any real added value, I suspect they won't sell many units (esp. not to buyers who value price/performance ratios).

What value does this add over existing analyzing-chargers-for-novices such as the Opus Or Liitokala? The only thing I see at first glance is possibly a 4-wire IR test (as we discussed before, the Xtar capacity guessing is mostly useless - pure marketing fluff).


----------



## stephenk (Sep 27, 2016)

Gauss163 said:


> At 3 times the price of the Opus BT-C3100 with little if any real added value, I suspect they won't sell many units (esp. not to buyers who value price/performance ratios).
> 
> What value does this add over existing analyzing-chargers-for-novices such as the Opus Or Liitokala? The only thing I see at first glance is possibly a 4-wire IR test (as we discussed before, the Xtar capacity guessing is mostly useless - pure marketing fluff).


Based on existing XTAR chargers, reliability and accuracy is likely to the advantage of the XTAR compared to the Liitokala and Opus.


----------



## david57strat (Sep 27, 2016)

stephenk said:


> Based on existing XTAR chargers, reliability and accuracy is likely to the advantage of the XTAR compared to the Liitokala and Opus.


Hear, hear. XTAR quality is, in fact, amazing


----------



## Gauss163 (Sep 27, 2016)

stephenk said:


> Based on existing XTAR chargers, reliability and accuracy is likely to the advantage of the XTAR compared to the Liitokala and Opus.



That's not consistent with reports here and elsewhere. For example, there are many reports of XTAR charges melting down, but I don't recall even a single such incident for the Opus or Liitokala's. Further, both offer _far _better price/performance than the XTAR.

In any case I encourage educated buyers to do some research before biting hook-line-and-sinker into the XTAR marketing fluff.


----------



## 18650 (Sep 27, 2016)

Gauss163 said:


> That's not consistent with reports here and elsewhere. For example, there are many reports of XTAR charges melting down, but I don't recall even a single such incident for the Opus or Liitokala's. Further, both offer _far _better price/performance than the XTAR. In any case I encourage educated buyers to do some research before biting hook-line-and-sinker into the XTAR marketing fluff.


 I'm not certain of what that one post is supposed to show nor do I agree with your conclusions in that other thread. If it has parts in it, they might be bad (or poor) out of the box and on long enough time scales even "good" parts will fail, no matter the brand.


----------



## Gauss163 (Sep 28, 2016)

18650 said:


> I'm not certain of what that one post is supposed to show nor do I agree with your conclusions in that other thread. If it has parts in it, they might be bad (or poor) out of the box and on long enough time scales even "good" parts will fail, no matter the brand.



The _facts _are that numerous XTAR charges have been reported to meltdown, but not a single Opus or Liitokala has. You cannot disagree with _facts_.


----------



## oKtosiTe (Sep 28, 2016)

Gauss163 said:


> The _facts _are that numerous XTAR charges have been reported to meltdown, but not a single Opus or Liitokala has. You cannot disagree with _facts_.


Some people say that facts are more easily verified when directly referenced.


----------



## Gauss163 (Sep 28, 2016)

oKtosiTe said:


> Some people say that facts are more easily verified when directly referenced.



The cited facts _were _linked a few posts prior. There are also numerous other reports of problems with XTAR chargers. Based on the reports here and elsewhere I see no evidence at all to support claims that XTAR are more reliable or higher quality than other analyzing chargers (Opus and Liitokala). Not to mention that the price is 4 to 5 times the Liitokala Lii-500 ($15 w/o AC adapter, $20 with, _including _shipping). Where is the extra money being spent? Apparently not on better design or QC. Probably on flashy, fluffy marketing.


----------



## ChrisGarrett (Sep 28, 2016)

Gauss163 said:


> The cited facts _were _linked a few posts prior. There are also numerous other reports of problems with XTAR chargers. Based on the reports here and elsewhere I see no evidence at all to support claims that XTAR are more reliable or higher quality than other analyzing chargers (Opus and Liitokala). Not to mention that the price is 4 to 5 times the Liitokala Lii-500 ($15 w/o AC adapter, $20 with, _including _shipping). Where is the extra money being spent? Apparently not on better design or QC. Probably on flashy, fluffy marketing.



Come on bro, you cite one thread where seemingly a 'few' people had a specific model melt down and one guy's VP2 glitched. That's like bitchin' at McDonalds for having a batch of bad burgers. Look at all the Xtar chargers that people have on this obscure flashlight site and you'll see that the percentage of failures is statistically quite low.

Hell, look at all the Opus 3100/3400 owners who had their fan crap out on them? My BT-3400 came with a faulty 3A wall wart that wouldn't do 4x1A charging. I got it sorted out, but it took a while to get a new one in. Thank God 'rdana' is in Sacramento and not Malaysia.

I do agree with you that some Xtar chargers have had problems. I've got their WP2 II, MP1S, VP2, XP1, MC1+ and VC4. My VP2 was from the first batch and got recalled for brittle plastic used in the housing. My MP1S seems to consistently undercharge (4.14-4.16v,) but that's close to being in spec, I'm told. My VC4 with an OEM Apple 2.4A wall wart doesn't often charge at 4x500mA, nor at 2x1A, but it has, so good luck with that and I've had two of those.

I've now got four Liitokala chargers coming (2x100s, 2x202s,) so I'll get to fiddle with that brand for a bit.

I've read this forum for over four years and I read a lot and what you're claiming isn't what I find from my readings. Hell, the NiteCore i4 v.2 has more negative posts about it than all of Xtar chargers combined and I own one of them as well. Good charger IME, if not a bit slow like my VC4.

Chris


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## markr6 (Sep 28, 2016)

ChrisGarrett said:


> Come on bro, you cite one thread where seemingly a 'few' people had a specific model melt down and one guy's VP2 glitched. That's like bitchin' at McDonalds for having a batch of bad burgers. Look at all the Xtar chargers that people have on this obscure flashlight site and you'll see that the percentage of failures is statistically quite low.



Yes. End of story IMO.


----------



## Gauss163 (Sep 28, 2016)

ChrisGarrett said:


> Come on bro, you cite one thread ...



The point is quite simple. All of these consumer-level chargers have issues. XTAR is no better than the others. I gave citations to hard facts backing up my claims. Those claiming higher quality / reliability have not. 

My advice to potential buyers is to do some research here and on BLF before paying 5x the price of other competent analyzing chargers. The price is a major ripoff. For slightly more one can get a SkYRC MC3000 with infinitely more features, or a few Lii-500 + BT-C3100s. Either way you get _much _better price / performance.


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## ChrisGarrett (Sep 28, 2016)

Gauss163 said:


> The point is quite simple. All of these consumer-level chargers have issues. XTAR is no better than the others. I gave citations to hard facts backing up my claims. Those claiming higher quality / reliability have not.
> 
> My advice to potential buyers is to do some research here and on BLF before paying 5x the price of other competent analyzing chargers. The price is a major ripoff. For slightly more one can get a SkYRC MC3000 with infinitely more features, or a few Lii-500 + BT-C3100s. Either way you get _much _better price / performance.



Thank you Captain Obvious. All consumer products have issues. SureFire lights break down and break down often, My ST. DuPont lighter had to go in for repairs after a couple of years, I've had two vaunted Japanese trucks whose engines crapped out on me before 100,000 miles and don't get me started on high end CD players.

Xtar makes some chargers that die on us.

You didn't give a citation to any hard facts, or anything of statistical relevance. You gave a link to a thread where anecdotal experiences are shared, is all.

If you want empirical data of some sort, you need to know the MTBF rates for any given brand/model and I doubt Nitecore, Liitokala and/or Xtar are going to provide you with that info, so you're just guessing.

Most of Xtar's chargers are safe and well designed according to HKJ's (and others' basic testing.) Whether this Panther is worth buying over the SkyRC MC3000, Liitokala 500, or Opus 3100/3400 chargers is up to the individual, but it's seemingly not worth it to me. However, that doesn't mean it isn't worth it to somebody else. See how that works?

But your comments that I replied to really aren't about the VP4 Panther, but rather you seem to be castigating all of Xtar's offerings, with very little hard evidence to back up your opinion. That's fine and dandy, but let's not pretend that you're the final arbiter on what's really up with any of this stuff.

Chris


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## Gauss163 (Sep 28, 2016)

ChrisGarrett said:


> If you want empirical data of some sort, you need to know the MTBF rates for any given brand/model and I doubt Nitecore, Liitokala and/or Xtar are going to provide you with that info, so you're just guessing is



You seem to be missing my point - which was merely to provide some data to refute an unfounded claim that XTAR chargers have higher reliability or quality than competing analyzing chargers (in attempt to justify their 4-5x cost). I have no interest in getting involved in nonconstructive fanboy-type arguments about various chargers.


----------



## ChrisGarrett (Sep 28, 2016)

Gauss163 said:


> You seem to be missing my point - which was merely to provide some data to refute an unfounded claim that XTAR chargers have higher reliability or quality than competing analyzing chargers (in attempt to justify their 4-5x cost). I have no interest in getting involved in nonconstructive fanboy-type arguments about various chargers.



Go back and read the 115 posts in this thread and show me where a preponderance of the three dozen, or so, posters claim that Xtar has better quality, or is even a better deal than chargers like the Opus, Liitokala 500, or SkyRC MC3000?

A couple of the posters have mentioned 'Xtar quality and value,' but they're hardly stating that they're better chargers than others on the market. In 'FACT,' many of those posts contain bona fide 'nits to pick' regarding Xtar chargers.

You have a preconceived bias against Xtar, for some reason, IMO and you're trying to justify that bias by harping on people's non-existent, but dogged belief that Xtar can do no wrong.

You should probably stop, before you dig a deeper hole for yourself.

Chris


----------



## Greta (Sep 28, 2016)

Oh FFS - enough... :shakehead - A bunch of cats peeing on each other and everyone ends up stinking. Knock it off children... seriously.


----------



## Trashman531 (Sep 29, 2016)

The only thing selling me on this charger is the ability to test cell resistance. Are there any other chargers that can do this?


----------



## ChrisGarrett (Sep 29, 2016)

Trashman531 said:


> The only thing selling me on this charger is the ability to test cell resistance. Are there any other chargers that can do this?



Among others, the SkyRC MC3000, the Opus BT-3100/3400 and the Liitokala 500 Engineer chargers will all give 'rudimentary IR' numbers, which may, or may not be helpful.

Chris


----------



## markr6 (Sep 30, 2016)

Greta said:


> Oh FFS - enough... :shakehead - A bunch of cats peeing on each other and everyone ends up stinking. Knock it off children... seriously.



LOL!!!! I had to google FFS 



Trashman531 said:


> The only thing selling me on this charger is the ability to test cell resistance. Are there any other chargers that can do this?



I like the Opus 3100. Most of my 18650 cells show around 80-110. Newer cells around 50-60. An older protected Eagletac 18650 I used to keep in my (hot and cold) car jumped up to well over 200! That's no surprise with the abuse it took. So it's proven quite useful to me; I trust it.


----------



## Gauss163 (Sep 30, 2016)

markr6 said:


> I like the Opus 3100. Most of my 18650 cells show around 80-110. Newer cells around 50-60. An older protected Eagletac 18650 I used to keep in my (hold and cold) car jumped up to well over 200! That's no surprise with the abuse it took. So it's proven quite useful to me; I trust it.



If the probes on the Dragon implement a 4-wire IR test and it works well, then that may give it an advantage over the 2-wire IR tests on other analyzing chargers. This could prove to be a selling point for those (power?) users who heavily exploit IR to track cell health.


----------



## HKJ (Sep 30, 2016)

Gauss163 said:


> If the probes on the Dragon implement a 4-wire IR test and it works well



They are supposed to be 4 terminal, but they cannot be used as a general purpose milliohm meter.


----------



## Gauss163 (Sep 30, 2016)

HKJ said:


> They are supposed to be 4 terminal, but they cannot be used as a general purpose milliohm meter.



I suspected they were 4-wire based on the photos, but I found no mention of that in their literature. Do you have a link which confirms it?

Another spec I could not locate are the discharge rates available. Do they specify that anywhere?


----------



## HKJ (Sep 30, 2016)

Gauss163 said:


> I suspected they were 4-wire based on the photos, but I found no mention of that in their literature. Do you have a link which confirms it?



No link, their engineer told me and there is two connections from each probe pin.



Gauss163 said:


> Another spec I could not locate are the discharge rates available. Do they specify that anywhere?



No, probably only one, but I will know that in a about a week when I get to test it.


----------



## ven (Sep 30, 2016)

HKJ said:


> No, probably only one, but I will know that in a about a week when I get to test it.



:naughty:



Look forward to your review HKJ, my potential DRAGON VP4 purchase lies in the balance of your impressions


----------



## HKJ (Sep 30, 2016)

ven said:


> Look forward to your review HKJ, my potential DRAGON VP4 purchase lies in the balance of your impressions



You need some patience before I publish the review, my first guess is about a month from now.
I do not know if I will be checking the battery pack charging, that depends on if I have a connector that fits.


----------



## ven (Sep 30, 2016)

All cool HKJ, i understand and will look forward to it for even longer all good things come to those who wait...............

Probably be longer than a month before i could source one in the UK anyway, no rush


----------



## HKJ (Sep 30, 2016)

ven said:


> All cool HKJ, i understand and will look forward to it for even longer all good things come to those who wait...............



My estimate is based on the time I uses on a normal analyzing LiIon/NiMH charger. I do not know if the Xtar is faster or slower to test and I do not have a manual yet, this makes it a bit more difficult to test all the functions (I expect to get the manual before I am finished with the test).


----------



## stephenk (Sep 30, 2016)

Looking forward to your review HKJ. I'm happy to wait for a high quality review that you are renowned for!


----------



## Tachead (Oct 30, 2016)

stephenk said:


> Looking forward to your review HKJ. I'm happy to wait for a high quality review that you are renowned for!




+1


----------



## david57strat (Oct 30, 2016)

stephenk said:


> Looking forward to your review HKJ. I'm happy to wait for a high quality review that you are renowned for!



I'm also anxiously awaiting HKJ's review of the Dragon. In the meantime, I'm enjoying these chargers (most of which are XTAR. I'm a huge XTAR fan lol).
Finally, some newer pictures, showing the chargers in use




























The older i4 V2 is all but retired. It sees very rare use.


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## StandardBattery (Oct 31, 2016)

So has anyone got their VP4 Dragon yet? Any first impressions?


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## HKJ (Oct 31, 2016)

StandardBattery said:


> So has anyone got their VP4 Dragon yet? Any first impressions?




I do have it, but I am not finished with testing it yet.
Until now my impression of it is very good.


----------



## StandardBattery (Oct 31, 2016)

HKJ said:


> I do have it, but I am not finished with testing it yet.
> Until now my impression of it is very good.


Thanks for the early report.


----------



## david57strat (Oct 31, 2016)

kreisl said:


> Awesome!!
> 
> Sold.
> 
> I am getting 4. :twothumbs



I don't now about four; but I'd like to have at least one. I just picked up the MC6 Queen Ant charger, earlier today; and it's interesting, but not nearly as appealing as this Dragon charger

(These model names crack me up).


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## walterr839 (Nov 2, 2016)

Received it today and am just reading through the manuel a few times to try to figure it out.

Look forward to HJK's review


----------



## walterr839 (Nov 2, 2016)

Received it today and am just reading through the manuel a few times to try to figure it out.

Look forward to HJK's review


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## ChrisGarrett (Nov 2, 2016)

walterr839 said:


> Received it today and am just reading through the manuel a few times to try to figure it out.
> 
> Look forward to HJK's review



What did you pay for it 'to your door' and from whom?

Thanks, Chris


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## walterr839 (Nov 3, 2016)

Purchased from Xtardirect $89.95

Worked great for one day

This morning it smells funny and display only flickers

Am in process of having it replaced. I hope


----------



## ChrisGarrett (Nov 3, 2016)

walterr839 said:


> Purchased from Xtardirect $89.95
> 
> Worked great for one day
> 
> ...



Bummer and sorry about that. XtarDirect will take care of you at least, as I had a problem and things got settled just fine, albeit in some cost of time/stress.

Anyhow, sounds like something 'melted' down inside.

Good luck with the new one and keep us posted.

Chris


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## StandardBattery (Nov 3, 2016)

walterr839 said:


> Purchased from Xtardirect $89.95
> 
> Worked great for one day
> 
> ...


Wow!! Bummer!! 

If they let you keep the old one, please take it apart to find the burned/melted stuff. I suspect they may want it back though so they can have a look at it. Thanks for reporting though, so we can see if the problem is isolated or not. 

I normally would pre-order, but now I have more than enough chargers and this one is a little pricey and the MC3000 still needs work before I could use it and keep my stress low, so I'll wait a bit longer.


----------



## brighterthanthesun (Nov 4, 2016)

The Dragon sounds like a great charger and would fit all of my needs except one, I need to have .25mA. I know that I can use my current charger for the small cells, but I really would like to have one charger that can do everything I ask of it. This one sounds like it could even replace the need for my multi-meter.


----------



## ChrisGarrett (Nov 4, 2016)

brighterthanthesun said:


> The Dragon sounds like a great charger and would fit all of my needs except one, I need to have .25mA. I know that I can use my current charger for the small cells, but I really would like to have one charger that can do everything I ask of it. This one sounds like it could even replace the need for my multi-meter.



SkyRC MC3000 would be that one, once the bugs are all fixed. Very close in price to the Dragon.

Unless you need a 3 series pack charging ability, or whatever it is for the Dragon, there are other, less expensive chargers out there, that are pretty correct in charging, like the Opus 3100/3400 and Liitokala Lii 500 analyzing chargers. They're not nearly as sophisticated as the MC3000, but they're a lot cheaper and they do most of what any of us would want, save for the 'knob twisters' plotting everything out as if it was their last will and testament.

I agree with you, I need the 250mA rate for my 16340s, since I carry lipstick lights around almost exclusively. I did charge up my initial AW ICR/IMR 16340s at 500mA for 2+ years and they still work, although all four are a bit long in the tooth 4+ years later. 500mA is doable in a pinch, I guess is my point?

Chris


----------



## Tachead (Nov 4, 2016)

brighterthanthesun said:


> The Dragon sounds like a great charger and would fit all of my needs except one, I need to have .25mA. I know that I can use my current charger for the small cells, but I really would like to have one charger that can do everything I ask of it. This one sounds like it could even replace the need for my multi-meter.



I agree. I don't understand why so many manufactures leave out a lower charge rate on so many models. Every charger should have a low charge rate (0.25-0.35amp) and LiFePO4 support included imo.


----------



## kreisl (Nov 4, 2016)

ChrisGarrett said:


> SkyRC MC3000 would be that one, once the bugs are all fixed.


i noticed that you and BatteryStandard continue, as non-owners(!), to talk about "bugs in the MC3000" or waiting for "them to be fixed". you guys feel free to enumerate them in the other thread and i can tell you if they are bugs and if they will be fixed. from the maker's team part and from my part, the charger is considered bug-free in terms of electronics, hardware (i.e. non-electronics), firmware, and PC Link Software (PCLS and or DEX), and there are no further changes of interest planned. you can charge flat-top batteries, even recessed-top batteries, without aids, even if you don't like how the manual tells you to do it. A bug to me is something which urgently needs a fix because the user cannot work around it. There is no such thing left in the MC3000. If you have AAAA or even AAAAA batteries and you experience a contacting problem at the minus terminal, then it is natural to lift the battery until it makes contact. And so on. This is no bug, this is how the charger is designed and works. Cooling works (and was fixed with upward blowing fan) and the fan loudness is as it is designed to be. From your standpoint you cannot, for example, complain about the fan loudness since you are not an owner. I have 6 units and the fans are all non-noisy to me and less noisy than OPUS, which is why they passed QC and QA in general. If i had found them too noisy, they would not have made it to market.

I've been running my latest 2 units on FW1.12 which is marvelous. It is a minor yet notable improvement over FW1.11, and it will be available soon to the public. Do you know of any further bugs, minor or major, in the firmware yes? Then enumerate them. I am a hardcore tester of the charger and i am not aware of any further firmware bugs. You know the list which lists all known bugs and they have been all fixed. (k#82) is not a bug but a new feature. (k#81) was reported late and might or might not be fixed in FW1.12 public release. In my beta it has not been fixed.

Anything else?

I can tell that you and BatteryStandard are, in general, interested in the MC3000 product. I can tell. Otherwise you wouldn't be mentioning it repeatedly and or criticizing that it still leaves room for improvement in your opinion. Maybe some of you guys feel turned off by the mere existence of the list let alone its sheer length, or feel reluctant because of the broken plastic reports on the earlier production units, or else. I respect that and i accept that. With the latest production from June sky showed how far they were willing to incorporate improvements, which comes down to extra human resources, man-hours, time, energy, cost, patience, and result. The product won't get any better than the latest production from June, also because that's what the company has signed off on, fully approved for global market release, and considering it bug-free from their standpoint.

Sure, the iPhone app might have bugs which i haven't listed since i don't test iPhone/Apple. And the PCLS is somewhat raw compared to the neat DEX. Then report the bugs and use DEX as the better alternative. Done.

Nuff said. From now on, whenever i see you or BatteryStandard (or tatasal, who is an owner but doesn't like the product) repeatedly claiming that mc3k has bugs blablah AND i feel (on that day) provoked by your comment, i will quote the comment and post a link (URL) to this very post. As repeatedly. This post contains all reasoning and the explanation that the charger is not considered "full of bugs" anymore. Officially! If you were an early owner and the charger early build quality failed on you and you didn't get a warranty replacement/repair and you let the disappointment dwell on you, then i can see why you would think of your early unit as being buggy and feel pi**ed about it when thinking about your case. In that case i'd feel for you. But that's a unit from the past. The product could be considered "buggy" 12 months ago, agreed. Not anymore. So disagreeing with you. Not being defensive but objective. It is unfair to call the product buggy if it isn't buggy anymore since the latest production. Got it?

Now back to topic. XTAR DRAGON. I am myself interested enough in this frikkin cool looking charger.


----------



## Gauss163 (Nov 4, 2016)

kreisl said:


> [the MC3000] can charge flat-top batteries, even recessed-top batteries, without aids, even if you don't like how the manual tells you to do it. A bug to me is something which urgently needs a fix because the user cannot work around it. There is no such thing left in the MC3000. If you have AAAA or even AAAAA batteries and you experience a contacting problem at the minus terminal, then it is natural to lift the battery until it makes contact. And so on. This is no bug, this is how the charger is designed and works [...]



Do you _seriously _mean to imply that purchasers of a $100+ "Dream Charger" should consider it normal that they have to frustratingly fiddle with batteries to achieve proper terminal contact? I've seen all sorts of "that's a feature, not a bug" type arguments. But that's the first time I've seen anyone attempt to redefine the meaning of "bug". But maybe we should not not be too surprised that a squirrel sizes up "bugs" differently from mere mortals. 



kreisl said:


> From your standpoint you cannot, for example, complain about the fan loudness since you are not an owner. I have 6 units and the fans are all non-noisy to me and less noisy than OPUS, which is why they passed QC and QA in general. If i had found them too noisy, they would not have made it to market.



Another redefinition: it's not too noisy if a squirrel can tolerate it! Did it really never occur to you that some users are much younger than aged squirrels, so they may have much more sensitive hearing. Not to mention that tolerance for background noise is _highly _subjective. Further, keep in mind that some of those pesky "non-owners" may have tried a friend's unit (or watched videos) and deemed it too noisy. Despite your objection, they have every right to make such complaints. Your sustained efforts to attempt to squash any and all critiques is beyond bizarre. Please constrain your squashing to bugs. Or devour them - whatever works best for a squirrel. 

It seems that the squirrel has too many nuts in this charger to have unbiased opinions on it. Improper battery terminal design is surely a bug - just as was poor thermal design, backwards fans, fragile spring binding posts, etc, etc. Clearly (to any _neutral _observer), the quality control (QC) on the SkyRC MC3000 is in the same league as QC on $15 chargers like the Liitokala Lii500. That speaks volumes. And don't get too excited - any similar nutty attempts to redefine the meaning of "QC" will also be _squashed_.


----------



## amham (Nov 4, 2016)

Received my Dragon yesterday. Nicely manufactured with a great display. Charged several batteries including 18650, AA NiMH and all seem fine. Trying to figure out how to get a voltage display from the main screen, seems this is not available????


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## stephenk (Nov 5, 2016)

amham said:


> Received my Dragon yesterday. Nicely manufactured with a great display. Charged several batteries including 18650, AA NiMH and all seem fine. Trying to figure out how to get a voltage display from the main screen, seems this is not available????


 Voltage only seems to be available when using the multi-meter functionality and not during charging. This omission (replaced by a dumbed down % full indicator) will quite likely dent the sales of the VP4 DRAGON for charging enthusiasts.


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## ven (Nov 5, 2016)

If this is correct stephen then i am 100% out of this, no V readout at the start,during and termination is a HUGE deal breaker for me.


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## Tachead (Nov 5, 2016)

ven said:


> If this is correct stephen then i am 100% out of this, no V readout at the start,during and termination is a HUGE deal breaker for me.




+1


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## HKJ (Nov 5, 2016)

A correctly implemented % display will be better at showing charge state than a voltage display. A volt readout will show 4.20 volt for a long time during the charge (Depending on age of batteries).
The external voltage and resistance probe is good at measuring internal resistance, due to the four terminal connection.

With that said, I also love a voltage display for each cell.


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## ven (Nov 5, 2016)

For this type of charger, the functions and cost, it would have been nice to have the option of a V readout. It seems a little crazy it was missed out to me, being used to the readout from their previous models that worked well..............its nice to know the V when the cell/s go on charge. Pretty much how i learn my flashlight use (which you can do with %) Very convenient over using a MM or the probes with the charger. Its more for the inserting the cell more than anything for me, just a bonus i can keep an eye on the voltage as it charges. Having 95% is not user friendly over the 4.14 V for me(just an example). IMO anyway.........let us have the choice and select which suits our needs(% or V or better still both).


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## HKJ (Nov 5, 2016)

ven said:


> For this type of charger, the functions and cost, it would have been nice to have the option of a V readout.



I do not disagree with you.



ven said:


> Having 95% is not user friendly over the 4.14 V for me(just an example).



With my older BE18650-26 cell you would get 4.20V for 4 hours out of the 5 hours it takes to charge it (On this charger CV is very close to 4.2V, not just something between 4 and 4.2V). The % display can look at the actual current and give a estimate on charge.


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## ven (Nov 5, 2016)

Thanks HKJ, well it is certainly better than bars! Where you might have 4 bars, 3 solid and the 4th flashing. I could get used to the % side, just not too sure i want to. 

Yes have noticed that the final part can take quite a while before termination. If removed when its at 4.2v, the cell/s usually settle a little lower around 4.16v i have noticed(generally, not an exact figure each time). 

I was on the fence, with the lack of V readout i am behind the fence............however your future review may help me get back on it :laughing:


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## Gauss163 (Nov 5, 2016)

HKJ said:


> A correctly implemented % display will be better at showing charge state than a voltage display [...]



It will be difficult if not impossible for such charger manufacturers to roll their own accurate fuel gauge technology. Without such these SOC guesses (and/or remaining time guesses) will be way off the mark for many cells. If you look at the review threads for prior XTAR chargers that attempt to do such you will see many complaints about how far off they are. Many have commented that they found them useless.


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## HKJ (Nov 5, 2016)

Gauss163 said:


> It will be difficult if not impossible for such charger manufacturers to roll their own accurate fuel gauge technology.



I did not say anything about accurate fuel gauge or estimating correct time remaining, but a percent display can give a better idea about charge state than a voltage display that shows charge voltage.


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## Gauss163 (Nov 5, 2016)

HKJ said:


> I did not say anything about accurate fuel gauge or estimating correct time remaining, but a percent display can give a better idea about charge state than a voltage display that shows charge voltage.



Such kludged estimates are often more than 50% off (depending on the cell chemistry, health etc). Whether or not that is "better than a voltage display" is a highly subjective judgement that I will leave to the reader.

If you sincerely believe these are useful then why don't you test them in your charger reviews? I bet most manufacturers would not like to see the results published - since they would look so bad. But such is snake oil...


----------



## ChrisGarrett (Nov 5, 2016)

kreisl said:


> i noticed that you and BatteryStandard continue, as non-owners(!), to talk about "bugs in the MC3000" or waiting for "them to be fixed". you guys feel free to enumerate them in the other thread and i can tell you if they are bugs and if they will be fixed.
> 
> I can tell that you and BatteryStandard are, in general, interested in the MC3000 product. I can tell. Otherwise you wouldn't be mentioning it repeatedly and or criticizing that it still leaves room for improvement in your opinion. Maybe some of you guys feel turned off by the mere existence of the list let alone its sheer length, or feel reluctant because of the broken plastic reports on the earlier production units, or else. I respect that and i accept that. With the latest production from June sky showed how far they were willing to incorporate improvements, which comes down to extra human resources, man-hours, time, energy, cost, patience, and result. The product won't get any better than the latest production from June, also because that's what the company has signed off on, fully approved for global market release, and considering it bug-free from their standpoint.
> 
> ...



You should have just come out and stated that ALL glitches in the MC3000 have been fixed and that there will be no more issues with things like broken spring posts.

There were bugs and issues not all that long ago. Whether the last batch of 300 has improved X, Y and Z issues, isn't really the point if chargers in the first 500 count batch are still in the stream of commerce.

Anyhow, I'm always looking to be educated and if most of the functional problems that I've read about over the past solid year have been addressed and fixed, then that's what I'll relay.

I don't want the MC3000, as I don't need the knob twiddling when charging batteries and cells. I'd much rather spend the time tweaking ammunition at my reloading press, if I want to tinker. I do realize and have since your initial reports and HKJ's review, that it is a very capable and sophisticated charger for those that do like to twiddle to the Nth degree, so I'm not a hater, but there have been caveats and the people reading my comments, need to do their own due diligence before purchasing.

Chris


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## HKJ (Nov 5, 2016)

Gauss163 said:


> Such kludged estimates are often more than 50% off (depending on the cell chemistry, health etc). Whether or not that is "better than a voltage display" is a highly subjective judgement that I will leave to the reader.



I will not call it subjective. The curve I posted above shows raising voltage for 1 hour and 4.20V for 4 hours, how will you estimate charge state by looking on the voltage display? With the % display you can see it will raise very slowly during the 4 hours.




Gauss163 said:


> If you sincerely believe these are useful then why don't you test them in your charger reviews? I bet most manufacturers would not like to see the results published - since they would look so bad. But such is snake oil...



I do not have something that can easily record the numbers in my logfile or I would have included it. It would probably take me days to make something to do it, I prefer to write a few more reviews or articles.


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## Gauss163 (Nov 5, 2016)

HKJ said:


> The curve I posted above shows raising voltage for 1 hour and 4.20V for 4 hours, how will you estimate charge state by looking on the voltage display? With the % display you can see it will raise very slowly during the 4 hours.



I claimed above that the general problem is difficult to solve. What you wrote above does not contradict that. Of course there will be some special cases where some heuristics will work better than others. The trick is to develop an algorithm that works accurately across _the entire spectrum_. Don't expect such innovation from a rinky-dinky charger manufacturer.


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## amham (Nov 5, 2016)

stephenk said:


> Voltage only seems to be available when using the multi-meter functionality and not during charging. This omission (replaced by a dumbed down % full indicator) will quite likely dent the sales of the VP4 DRAGON for charging enthusiasts.[/Q]
> 
> I agree, also how do you return to the main charging screen after using the volt/resistance mode? I had to reset the charger. Is there a update/programming function? Seems with this cost/sophistication a method to update the firmware is a must!


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## HKJ (Nov 5, 2016)

amham said:


> I agree, also how do you return to the main charging screen after using the volt/resistance mode? I had to reset the charger.



Double tap the display button.


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## amham (Nov 5, 2016)

HKJ said:


> Double tap the display button.



Thanks, I thought I did that and it did not work, it is refreshing some Enelops now so I'll try that later.

I work as a Metrologist (calibration and repair of electronic instrumentation) and I have access to expensive/sophisticated test equipment. I will compare the miliOhm function to some highend miliOhm meters for accuracy. 

Do you know if it has a firmware update mode?


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## HKJ (Nov 5, 2016)

amham said:


> I work as a Metrologist (calibration and repair of electronic instrumentation) and I have access to expensive/sophisticated test equipment. I will compare the miliOhm function to some highend miliOhm meters for accuracy.



The function can not measure a resistor, only a battery.



amham said:


> Do you know if it has a firmware update mode?



I do not know. It is possible, but somehow I doubt it.


----------



## scintillator (Nov 6, 2016)

I have this charger and so far I like it.
I like that it has a beeper that sounds when charge is finished.
If I need to know the voltage I just use the probe and measure it.
The internal resistance is interesteng so far.I have 2 sony vtc6 and they are both 17 mΩ,
four S30Q read 19  mΩ.The rest of my 18650`s read between 45 and 51 mΩ.
 One use I see for this is to match cells with same internal resistance in multiple cell lights...
I am just an average user and am waiting for review from HKJ like so many others.


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## StandardBattery (Nov 6, 2016)

scintillator said:


> I have this charger and so far I like it.
> I like that it has a beeper that sounds when charge is finished.
> If I need to know the voltage I just use the probe and measure it.
> The internal resistance is interesteng so far.I have 2 sony vtc6 and they are both 17 mΩ,
> ...


Good information Thanks! The IR values look realistic, or at least proportional to what would be expected, values for those cells.


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## StorminMatt (Nov 9, 2016)

StandardBattery said:


> True enough. It's hard enough to explain a flashlight collection, but a charger collection.... don't even try.



Even some folks around here with large flashlight collections will consider you a little 'off your rocker' if you have too many chargers.


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## ven (Nov 9, 2016)

Chargers, cells..........all part of the equation. Off the top of my head, for li ions- i4,wp6 II,vp1,vp2,vp4(gifted the vc4)opus,AWT x2,sp1. So around 9 i can think off, yet my cells total at least 30 spares and 10 vape cells. Not even counting the cells in my lights :laughing:

Trouble is, as a new charger comes in, other/s take a back burner and so on for me. Most use today is the opus at home down stairs, work the vp1 which both get daily use. The rest come out for surplus charging or when up stairs and some need charging(convenience). 

We are not crazy, just need an open mind to understand us


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## bob_ninja (Nov 9, 2016)

Wait what ....
You mean there are flashoholics who DO NOT have a charger in every room in their house/apt???? LOL 

I am at the charger per floor stage, although starting to expand into kids rooms.


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## david57strat (Nov 9, 2016)

StorminMatt said:


> Even some folks around here with large flashlight collections will consider you a little 'off your rocker' if you have too many chargers.



There is no such thing as "too many chargers" lol. (See Post 130. At last count, it was 16 chargers, 15 of which are in regular use, and the 16th, about to be put out to pasture). The Dragon would make 16 chargers, in all, used regularly. 

Thirteen of those are XTAR chargers - soon to be fourteen, if I get the Dragon. 


The more lights and batteries you have, the more chargers you need (particularly if you use multiple lights every day), unless you want to spend all day charging batteries lol. Once a month, I top off all of my 18650 batteries, in all of my lights.

Having multiple chargers makes charging batteries (simultaneously) a much more efficient practice.

I stopped caring, a long time ago, whether people approve of my collections (lights, knives, chargers, sound and musical equipment....etc.).


----------



## brighterthanthesun (Nov 12, 2016)

ChrisGarrett said:


> SkyRC MC3000 would be that one, once the bugs are all fixed. Very close in price to the Dragon.
> 
> Unless you need a 3 series pack charging ability, or whatever it is for the Dragon, there are other, less expensive chargers out there, that are pretty correct in charging, like the Opus 3100/3400 and Liitokala Lii 500 analyzing chargers. They're not nearly as sophisticated as the MC3000, but they're a lot cheaper and they do most of what any of us would want, save for the 'knob twisters' plotting everything out as if it was their last will and testament.
> 
> ...



How does the 3100 differ from the 3400?


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## kaptain_zero (Nov 12, 2016)

brighterthanthesun said:


> How does the 3100 differ from the 3400?



No difference other than model number, likely created for a large volume seller so they can claim it's not the same item everyone else is selling to avoid price matching. This is done in Canada all the time. Ads like "Only available from XXXXX" and while identical to another chains product line, when you ask for a price match they will respond that it's a different model number so it's not the same.


Edit: Just for giggles, I looked for the Opus website, the only one I could find was their Alibaba link. They only offer the 3100 for sale, there is no mention of a model 3400.


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## X-MANu (Nov 12, 2016)

Hello there,


a few days ago Ibought the Opus BT-C3100 in order to have a charger that can chargeand analyze both Li-Ion and NiMH. Even though I did some researchbefore buying it, it wasn‘t until today that realized that thischarger might not be the best choice for batteries with smallercapacities because it seems to use a charge current of more than 3Afor a short time when charging or discharging, even if there‘s acharge current of only 200mA selected. I don‘t know too much aboutthis stuff but someone told me that this destroys the battery. Whatdo you think?
Since right now Ionly need the charger for charging NiMH and 14500 Li-Ion I‘mthinking about sending it back and getting the new Xtar Dragoninstead. Can anyone tell me if this one is a good choice forbatteries with a smaller capacity?
Thanks a lot!


Regards, Manuel


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## X-MANu (Nov 12, 2016)

Hello there,


a few days ago Ibought the Opus BT-C3100 in order to have a charger that can chargeand analyze both Li-Ion and NiMH. Even though I did some researchbefore buying it, it wasn‘t until today that realized that thischarger might not be the best choice for batteries with smallercapacities because it seems to use a charge current of more than 3Afor a short time when charging or discharging, even if there‘s acharge current of only 200mA selected. I don‘t know too much aboutthis stuff but someone told me that this destroys the battery. Whatdo you think?
Since right now Ionly need the charger for charging NiMH and 14500 Li-Ion I‘mthinking about sending it back and getting the new Xtar Dragoninstead. Can anyone tell me if this one is a good choice forbatteries with a smaller capacity?


Regards, Manuel


----------



## StandardBattery (Nov 12, 2016)

X-MANu said:


> Hello there,
> 
> 
> a few days ago Ibought the Opus BT-C3100 in order to have a charger that can chargeand analyze both Li-Ion and NiMH. Even though I did some researchbefore buying it, it wasn‘t until today that realized that thischarger might not be the best choice for batteries with smallercapacities because it seems to use a charge current of more than 3Afor a short time when charging or discharging, even if there‘s acharge current of only 200mA selected. I don‘t know too much aboutthis stuff but someone told me that this destroys the battery. Whatdo you think?
> ...


I don't think there is a consensus on this issue at this time as there has been no long term test of cells with proper controls in place. Some say it's bad, others say it may actually be helpful to keep the cell operating at peek performance. If there is an effect it would likely be reduced cycles, and that does not really matter to some people, but nothing has been demonstrated that I'm aware of. It is not the charge algorithm recommended by most manufacturers, but again they have not commented that they don't approve of it either they just follow their protocol they have been using for quite some time. Many people use the charger I think just as a good analyzer, but in general there have not been too many reported problems with the last generation. In electronics people are always trying to push the envelope on different products by trying to adjust specification based on duty-cycle and almost universally it shortens life which they are not worried about. Electrochemistry though is another matter and may react quite different to this since the state of the material is not fixed like with a chip, and exciting a reaction is very different than pushing physical boundaries of a material although there are some fixed materials involved in the making of the battery.

So I would not sweat it in the short term; Your 14500 cells can take a lot more than a 200mAh charge rate also so you're not operating at the extremes in any case. I can't remember what this charger is doing for NiMH exactly I should refresh my memory, but for your Li-Ion based on current reports you are OK.


----------



## swan (Nov 12, 2016)

X-MANu said:


> Hello there,
> 
> 
> a few days ago Ibought the Opus BT-C3100 in order to have a charger that can chargeand analyze both Li-Ion and NiMH. Even though I did some researchbefore buying it, it wasn‘t until today that realized that thischarger might not be the best choice for batteries with smallercapacities because it seems to use a charge current of more than 3Afor a short time when charging or discharging, even if there‘s acharge current of only 200mA selected. I don‘t know too much aboutthis stuff but someone told me that this destroys the battery. Whatdo you think?
> ...



This was also my concern also with the opus- so i purchased the Liitokala Lii 500 which uses constant current to charge and could not be happier, in fact i now have 2 of these.


----------



## kreisl (Nov 12, 2016)

swan said:


> Liitokala Lii 500 which uses constant current to charge



:thinking:

nm.

wrong thread anyway so moving on.


----------



## StandardBattery (Nov 12, 2016)

swan said:


> This was also my concern also with the opus- so i purchased the Liitokala Lii 500 which uses constant current to charge and could not be happier, in fact i now have 2 of these.


I've had no issues with my Lii 500 yet, but a few reports are coming in of failures. I use mine mostly for capacity testing. Let us know in the Lii 500 thread if you start to have any issues.


----------



## X-MANu (Nov 12, 2016)

Do you think that the Dragon is a better choice for batteries with smaller capacities than the Opus? Or could you recommend another charger that might be more suitable for my needs?


----------



## swan (Nov 12, 2016)

StandardBattery said:


> I've had no issues with my Lii 500 yet, but a few reports are coming in of failures. I use mine mostly for capacity testing. Let us know in the Lii 500 thread if you start to have any issues.



I was making a comment to X Manu

Good to see you have the Liitokala Lii 500 anyway.


----------



## ven (Nov 13, 2016)

X-MANu said:


> Do you think that the Dragon is a better choice for batteries with smaller capacities than the Opus? Or could you recommend another charger that might be more suitable for my needs?





The Dragons lowest charge rate is 0.5a afaik, although ok for 16340 and 14500(AAA too), its a little high for the really small cells. The opus has 0.2/0.3 and 0.5a rates and i have never had any issue using them.


----------



## X-MANu (Nov 13, 2016)

ven said:


> The Dragons lowest charge rate is 0.5a afaik, although ok for 16340 and 14500(AAA too), its a little high for the really small cells. The opus has 0.2/0.3 and 0.5a rates and i have never had any issue using them.



Yeah, that's why I bought the Opus. Among other reasons. But it seems to use a charge current of 2 to 3A for a short time when charging or discharging, no matter what you selected. I don't know too much about this, but some people told me that this would cause damage to the batteries, especially to smaller capacities. What do you think about this?

Oh, and when I try to discharge or analyze a 14500, the Opus sometimes (but only sometimes) refuses to do so by saying "null". Probably this is because the PCB tries to protect the battery from the extremely high current that is used. Did you ever experience such problems?


----------



## ven (Nov 13, 2016)

I know from HKJ review here of the older version(v2.1) the issue of 9a spikes were sorted with a different power pack iirc .
http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?389732-Test-Review-of-Charger-Opus-BT-C3100-V2-1

I dont really charge that ,any 14500 protected, i do have a couple and never had issues with the PCB at 0.5a rate. Most my cells are unprotected, most my 14500 and 16340 either get 0.3 or 0.5a. 18650 regardless of protected or not get 1a, vape cells in pairs get 1.5a. 26650's get 2a . Up to now i have not noticed anything untoward over 100's(probably 1000's) of charge cycles on the btc3100 v2.2. So i am not concerned about anything with this charger. I tried the discharge and other options out a few times and its too long to see through to do regular. After a while with my heavy use vape cells, i notice them not lasting as long in the day............once it gets to a point i recycle and replace. I dont need to know for example if it has 2200mah or 3000mah with those, as i can tell by my vape time.

Still tempted a little by the dragon, just await HKJ review to make a final decision.....From what i have read so far, i dont think it can replace my opus for its flexibility(for my needs anyway).


----------



## StandardBattery (Nov 13, 2016)

swan said:


> I was making a comment to X Manu
> 
> Good to see you have the Liitokala Lii 500 anyway.


Yes i know, i just wanted to ask you to posted any issues with the Lii500 in the future since you are using it quite regularly. I like it and have been lightly recommending it as a good starter charge/analyzer for multi-chemestry, but want to be sure it's reliable as a few issues are poping up for people, and the 3100 is pretty cheap now also with coupon.


----------



## Tachead (Nov 16, 2016)

.....


----------



## Tachead (Nov 16, 2016)

HKJ said:


> The function can not measure a resistor, only a battery.
> 
> 
> 
> I do not know. It is possible, but somehow I doubt it.



Not too push Mr. HKJ but, is there an eta for your review on this charger? I very much look forward to it as I am thinking about ordering one. Thanks.


----------



## HKJ (Nov 16, 2016)

Tachead said:


> Not too push Mr. HKJ but, is there an eta for your review on this charger? I very much look forward to it as I am thinking about ordering one.




The review was already mostly done a few weeks ago, but because I need to publish 2-3 other charger review more before the Xtar and I have been short on writing time this month (Due to a couple of birthday parties), it is not finished yet.


----------



## Tachead (Nov 16, 2016)

HKJ said:


> The review was already mostly done a few weeks ago, but because I need to publish 2-3 other charger review more before the Xtar and I have been short on writing time this month (Due to a couple of birthday parties), it is not finished yet.




Ok, thank you very much sir:thumbsup:. I look forward to reading it when it its finished. May I ask what you thought of the charger overall?


----------



## HKJ (Nov 16, 2016)

Tachead said:


> May I ask what you thought of the charger overall?



It is a good charger.


----------



## Tachead (Nov 16, 2016)

HKJ said:


> It is a good charger.



Thanks HKJ. Myself and I am sure many others really appreciate all your hard work:thumbsup:


----------



## IPTelman (Nov 16, 2016)

Very happy with mine so far.


----------



## brighterthanthesun (Nov 16, 2016)

X-MANu said:


> Do you think that the Dragon is a better choice for batteries with smaller capacities than the Opus? Or could you recommend another charger that might be more suitable for my needs?



I have the Xtar SV2 Rocket and I like it. You can select .25A, .5A, 1.0A or 2.0A charging currents and it does a good job with both NiMH and Lithium. My only gripe is that it does not have a voltage readout that tells me the voltage of my cell right when I put it on the charger. It is hard to get everything in one charger though.


----------



## kaptain_zero (Nov 16, 2016)

I'm pretty impressed with my SV2 as well.... I'm thinking of ordering another one. If one fails, I can still charge 2 cells at a time in the other one. 2 x SV2 chargers are getting close to the Dragon in cost... so I wouldn't be saving money, but I sure like redundancy!

Regards

Christian


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## Tachead (Nov 16, 2016)

Don't forget about the VP2 guys. Compared to the SV2, you loose the NiMh support and 2amp charge rate. But, it has voltage readout as well as 4.35V and LiFePO4 support.


----------



## david57strat (Nov 16, 2016)

Tachead said:


> Don't forget about the VP2 guys. Compared to the SV2, you loose the NiMh support and 2amp charge rate. But, it has voltage readout as well as 4.35V and LiFePO4 support.




So, get 'em all! . I like them all, for different reasons. They cover most of my bases, very nicely.

I still want to get my hands on at least one VP4 Dragon, though .


----------



## Tachead (Nov 16, 2016)

david57strat said:


> So, get 'em all! . I like them all, for different reasons. They cover most of my bases, very nicely.
> 
> I still want to get my hands on at least one VP4 Dragon, though .



lol:rock:

I think my setup is going to be perfect. I have a VP2 and a MH-C9000 now and am likely going to get this Dragon to add to the mix. I also have a Revolectrix Powerlab 8 V2 and a 1200watt/50amp SKYRC Power Supply. I should have all my charging bases covered


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## ChrisGarrett (Nov 16, 2016)

Tachead said:


> lol:rock:
> 
> I think my setup is going to be perfect. I have a VP2 and a MH-C9000 now and am likely going to get this Dragon to add to the mix. I also have a Revolectrix Powerlab 8 V2 and a 1200watt power supply. I should have all my bases covered



Now all you need are some smaller 5v USB chargers to cover those same bases.

Liitokala Lii 202 and 100 are nice, for 2-1 bays and all chemistries and voltages, the Xtar VC2/VC4 and maybe the XP1 and/or MC1 Plus/ANT.

Chris


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## Tachead (Nov 16, 2016)

ChrisGarrett said:


> Now all you need are some smaller 5v USB chargers to cover those same basis.
> 
> Liitokala Lii 202 and 100 are nice, for 2-1 bays and all chemistries and voltages, the Xtar VC2/VC4 and maybe the XP1 and/or MC1 Plus/ANT.
> 
> Chris



True, true. Hey don't give me any ideas

I was already looking at the VC4 lol.


----------



## david57strat (Nov 16, 2016)

kaptain_zero said:


> I'm pretty impressed with my SV2 as well.... I'm thinking of ordering another one. If one fails, I can still charge 2 cells at a time in the other one. 2 x SV2 chargers are getting close to the Dragon in cost... so I wouldn't be saving money, but I sure like redundancy!
> 
> Regards
> 
> Christian




I love my SV2s, and they are my chargers of choice, for my D NiMhs, as well as my 26650 batteries; and often are used to top off the batteries for some of my EDC lights that were used earlier that day.

I'm with you. I like redundancy, too!


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## StandardBattery (Nov 16, 2016)

I'm also very happy with my SV2, but I do wish they would have continued with the VP2 style. Lately I've been charging batteries for bigger multi-cell lights so I've been measuring them more closely with the DMM anyway. I have several vp2 so I may not buy another SV2 right away. I'll probably end up with a Dragon also just because.


----------



## stephenk (Nov 17, 2016)

HKJ said:


> The review was already mostly done a few weeks ago, but because I need to publish 2-3 other charger review more before the Xtar and I have been short on writing time this month (Due to a couple of birthday parties), it is not finished yet.


I think the Dragon VP4 Plus should jump the queue!


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## StandardBattery (Nov 17, 2016)

stephenk said:


> I think the Dragon VP4 Plus should jump the queue!


I think it's OK to wait; they need time to plan their "sale" and many shops don't have stock yet. So best the review hits when everyone has stock.... and even better if it goes on sale. Still they should have boosted it's power handling by 30% to allow all slots to charge at 2A, and since they are calling it a battery doctor they should have included some slower charge rates as the young and old need the doctor the most.


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## brighterthanthesun (Nov 18, 2016)

I hate to say it, but I have a bone to pick with Xtar. I have an SV2 and a D2 and I really like them both, but if you are going to put out a multi-chemistry and multi-function charger why is it that you can't include charging currents from .1A and .25A right up to 2A. The Dragon sounds like a fantastic charger, but Xtar's failure to include .25A and .1A charging levels unfortunately make it just another charger that does some/most of what I need. I know that it is hard for anything to be everything for everyone, but if your designing a multi-chemistry analyzing charger would it be that hard to include a full range of charging currents? I get the feeling that they do not want to sell me ONE charger that meets my needs, they want to make me buy TWO or THREE chargers to meet my rather basic needs. I have been waiting for Xtar to make a charger that does everything I need it to do, but now that they released the Dragon but still failed to include something as basic as a low current setting for my small cells I have come to the conclusion that they never will. I guess I will buy an Opus now.


----------



## tatasal (Nov 18, 2016)

....and you can buy almost 3 Opus for the price of one Dragon


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## stephenk (Nov 18, 2016)

tatasal said:


> ....and you can buy almost 3 Opus for the price of one Dragon


Order 3 Opus, and you might get one that works properly :naughty:


----------



## ChrisGarrett (Nov 19, 2016)

stephenk said:


> Order 3 Opus, and you might get one that works properly :naughty:



My BT-3400 v. 2.2 has been fine for almost a year.

Apart from the fan noise reported here more than a few times, they're not too problematic from what I've read here.

It's not a perfect charger, however.

Chris


----------



## tatasal (Nov 19, 2016)

stephenk said:


> Order 3 Opus, and you might get one that works properly :naughty:



Do you have one that does not work properly? I have the v2.0s, v2.1s and v2.2s and not one so far has malfunctioned.


----------



## Tachead (Nov 19, 2016)

tatasal said:


> ....and you can buy almost 3 Opus for the price of one Dragon



Yeah, but Xtar is in a different class then Opus. Their build quality, materials, displays, QC/QA, etc. are much better. They also generally use constant current(cc/cv) vs. the inferior pulsed current that Opus uses. As for the Dragon, it has many more features then the BT-3100/3400 and comes with a lot more accessories including a 12V/3amp wall adapter, a 3amp car adapter, nice spring loaded heavy gauge multimeter probes, and a nylon carry case. It also has double the warranty vs. the Opus.

Lets wait for HKJ's review but, I am guessing the Dragon is worth the extra money.


----------



## kreisl (Nov 19, 2016)

Why argue. Why not buy all chargers? Opus, xtar, skyrc. Then no more argue.


----------



## Tachead (Nov 19, 2016)

kreisl said:


> how can you tell? Do you have Opus? Are you talking from personal experience with Opus BT-C3k series?
> 
> i am just curious how you are able to claim such things.
> 
> in any case i am thinking that you should buy the xtar: it's the best offering by xtar and a no-brainer for all xtar fanboys. so i got it too. geman dealer Akkuteile has plenty in stock :huh:



No, I don't own one of the BT-C3 series. I held off waiting for something that matched the features that I wanted better and just used my VP2/MH-C9000 combo. But, it seems to be fairly common opinion that Xtar is higher quality then Opus, Lacross, etc. You can tell just by comparing them that the Xtar's are built better and have a higher fit and finish, have nicer displays, better charging algorithms(CC/CV), come with more accessories, and have a better warranty. The Xtar's also seem to come out with less firmware and feature issues and seem like a better tested product. Then there is the extensive reviews like HKJ's(just for instance) that seem to rate them higher as well. The Xtars usually get a "very good" rating unlike most other chargers including the Opus BT-C3100.

I actually just did this morning. I got a great price too. They are in stock at a few places now in the US and Canada. I wouldn't call myself an Xtar fanboy however. I just try to buy the highest quality charger that meets my needs the best. I have or have had chargers from Nitecore, Maha/Powerex, Lacrosse, Thunder Power, Revolectrix, SKYRC, Xtar, etc.

Hopefully I like it, as I bought before the reviews came out which I usually never do.


----------



## Tachead (Nov 19, 2016)

kreisl said:


> Why argue. Why not buy all chargers? Opus, xtar, skyrc. Then no more argue.



Lol, yeah, cant go wrong then:rock:. They are all pretty good chargers really. I was just trying to explain why I thought the Dragon costs more in comparison. It is also new to the market so, it will come down in time. I couldnt wait though and got a decent price anyway. I just really needed a charger that can test resistance and capacity for lithium ion. Plus, now I can put my DMM away because it has one built in(one less thing cluttering up the charging area).


----------



## StandardBattery (Nov 19, 2016)

I don't see how owning all the chargers changes any valid arguments if one is honest. Buying all the chargers can be fun though, at least for a while. We discuss chargers here, that's what we do.


----------



## Gauss163 (Nov 19, 2016)

Tachead said:


> Yeah, but Xtar is in a different class then Opus. Their build quality, materials, displays, QC/QA, etc. are much better.



Not true. None of these consumer level chargers are _much _better than the others on these matters. For example, a handful of XTAR chargers have melted down. I don't recall any such major problems with the Opus or Liitokala's. 



Tachead said:


> They also generally use constant current(cc/cv) vs. the inferior pulsed current that Opus uses.



Claims that pulse charging is inferior to pure CC/CV are old-wives tales without scientific basis. 



Tachead said:


> As for the Dragon, it has many more features then the BT-3100/3400 and comes with a lot more accessories including a 12V/3amp wall adapter, a 3amp car adapter, nice spring loaded heavy gauge multimeter probes, and a nylon carry case. It also has double the warranty vs. the Opus.



And it costs 3 to 5 times the price of the Opus/Liitokala, so it is much worse in terms of price/performance. For that much money one should instead consider a SkyRC MC3000 - which has many more features.


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## Tachead (Nov 19, 2016)

Gauss163 said:


> Not true. None of these consumer level chargers are _much _better than the others on these matters. For example, a handful of XTAR chargers have melted down. I don't recall any such major problems with the Opus or Liitokala's.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Not true in your opinion. Quite true in mine and many others. All electronics have issues from time to time. At least with Xtar you get double the warranty if the unfortunate should happen. A couple of random reports on the internet is hardly evidence of anything.

Most higher end chargers use constant current algorithms at least from what I seen.

The Dragon has the features I want. I have no interest in the MC3000. Far too complicated(I have better things to do then play with chargers and batteries). And, it has been full of bugs and manufacturing issues since it came out. I hear they have worked many of them out now but, I have no interest in gambling on getting a new production model nor do I want to mess with updating firmware constantly. I have a high end hobby charger, which far surpasses the MC3000 if I need more features.


----------



## tatasal (Nov 19, 2016)

@Tachead,

Well, I have several Xtars (VP2s, SV2, etc) and while they are really good chargers, you cannot say it's better than the Opus BT-C3100 series since you have not actually owned and USED one. I also have the iCharger, started with the Pila IBC, the buggy MC3000 and others.

Pound-for-pound, value-for-money and UI and feature-wise, the Opus still kills them all since it came out.


----------



## MarioJP (Nov 19, 2016)

Tachead said:


> Not true in your opinion. Quite true in mine and many others. All electronics have issues from time to time. At least with Xtar you get double the warranty if the unfortunate should happen. A couple of random reports on the internet is hardly evidence of anything.
> 
> Most higher end chargers use constant current algorithms at least from what I seen.
> 
> The Dragon has the features I want. I have no interest in the MC3000. Far too complicated(I have better things to do then play with chargers and batteries). And, it has been full of bugs and manufacturing issues since it came out. I hear they have worked many of them out now but, I have no interest in gambling on getting a new production model nor do I want to mess with updating firmware constantly. I have a high end hobby charger, which far surpasses the MC3000 if I need more features.


 I am really considering this charger but i am seeing comments on here that previous XTAR models had overheating/meltdown issues??? I already gambled with the MC3000 and look how that turned out for me. And even if the June production has most of the flaws ironed out. I don't think i still want to gamble with the MC3000 again. I'll give it 2 to 3 years. Should i just get the Opus then?? At this point the only thing the Opus has going for it is the price. That's like 3 Opus for the price of 1 MC3000 or Dragon.


----------



## Tachead (Nov 19, 2016)

tatasal said:


> @Tachead,
> 
> Well, I have several Xtars (VP2s, SV2, etc) and while they are really good chargers, you cannot say it's better than the Opus BT-C3100 series since you have not actually owned and USED one. I also have the iCharger, started with the Pila IBC, the buggy MC3000 and others.
> 
> Pound-for-pound, value-for-money and UI and feature-wise, the Opus still kills them all since it came out.



I didnt say this particular charger is better then the Opus. Nor did I say the BT-3100 was a bad charger. I said that Xtar chargers are in a different class then Opus. They have better fit and finish, better warranty, generally release a better tested and more refined product free of major bugs, and come with more accessories. They are also available from and supported by a worldwide dealer network, have a website, and have easily accessible literature unlike Opus who is sold on Ebay and a couple of Chinese discount shops.


----------



## Tachead (Nov 19, 2016)

MarioJP said:


> I am really considering this charger but i am seeing comments on here that previous XTAR models had overheating/meltdown issues??? I already gambled with the MC3000 and look how that turned out for me. And even if the June production has most of the flaws ironed out. I don't think i still want to gamble with the MC3000 again. I'll give it 2 to 3 years. Should i just get the Opus then?? At this point the only thing the Opus has going for it is the price. That's like 3 Opus for the price of 1 MC3000 or Dragon.



Buying a charger is a personal decision based on your needs and wants. I will say, that if you want to be sure the Dragon is a great charger and bug free you should wait for the reviews to be released. HKJ will be releasing his soon and he is a very well respected reviewer. He has already said preliminarily however that he thinks it is a good charger. Also, Xtar has a reputation of generally releasing very well tested bug free products and have a 2 year warranty and a dealer network to support it. As for the price, that is again a person decision. The dragon does have a higher price but, I think it should over the Opus for the reasons I listed in my earlier posts(higher fit and finish, better display, better support network, better warranty, more accessories included, exc.). Now, is it worth that much more? Again that is up to you to decide. 

I ordered one this morning to try and should have it within a couple of days. This charger just has the features I have been looking for(aside from the lack of a lower charge current)and my other Xtar has been great(not that some of the other brands I have haven't either). I will post my opinion once I have a chance to test it out. A few people in this thread have them already too and have given an opinion if you want to read back.


----------



## Gauss163 (Nov 19, 2016)

tatasal said:


> Pound-for-pound, value-for-money and UI and feature-wise, the Opus still kills them all since it came out.



At half the price ($15 including shipping), the Liitokala Lii-500 may well be a better deal for some users. But no doubt they both offer a price performance ratio _far _better than other analyzing chargers. The $15 price is w/o 12V/2A AC/DC adapter. Add $5 if you need an adapter. Many probably already have such adapters from other devices (I probably have more than ten of them laying around from all sorts of random device, e.g. external hard drives).


----------



## Tachead (Nov 19, 2016)

I think we are getting a little off topic here guys. This is a Xtar Dragon VP4 Plus thread, not a what's the best value analyzing charger or what's the highest quality charger brand thread. Lets get back to talking about the Dragon and start another thread for the other topics please.


----------



## tatasal (Nov 19, 2016)

Tachead said:


> I think we are getting a little off topic here guys. This is a Xtar Dragon VP4 Plus thread, not a what's the best value analyzing charger or what's the highest quality charger brand thread. Lets get back to talking about the Dragon and start another thread for the other topics please.



Ok, no problem with your request.. 

IMO, if the Dragon will feature at least 250ma charging current minimum (presently at 500ma), and will be priced at about a max of $65, AND I expect to receive a good review from HKJ, this charger will be a nice addition to my chargers.

Edit: And oh, btw, going off-topic every now and then will NOT make Joe a dull boy!


----------



## Tachead (Nov 19, 2016)

tatasal said:


> Ok, no problem with your request..
> 
> IMO, if the Dragon will feature at least 250ma charging current minimum (presently at 500ma), and will be priced at about a max of $65, AND I expect to receive a good review from HKJ, this charger will be a nice addition to my chargers.
> 
> Edit: And oh, btw, going off-topic every now and then will NOT make Joe a dull boy!



I wish it had a 250mA charging rate and LifePO4 support as well but, its not a deal breaker for me as my VP2 covers those. And, I have moved away from LiFePO4, 10440's, and 16340's anyway for most of my uses. Its just NiMH, 18350's, and 18650's for me for now.

I agree, some good conversation often comes from going off the rails


----------



## tatasal (Nov 19, 2016)

Tachead said:


> I wish it had a 250mA charging rate and LifePO4 support as well but, its not a deal breaker for me as my VP2 covers those. And, I have moved away from LiFePO4, 10440's, and 16340's anyway for most of my uses. Its just NiMH, 18350's, and 18650's for me for now.
> 
> I agree, some good conversation often comes from going off the rails



Well, it's always better to have it and not need it, than need it and not have it!(and that's assuming it's simple to use when you need it, unlike the you-know-what, haha)


----------



## Tachead (Nov 19, 2016)

tatasal said:


> Well, it's always better to have it and not need it, than need it and not have it!



That's totally true and I live my life by that moto. But, it seems like no charger is perfect for everything and its just a matter of whether this one checks enough check boxes for you. For me it does and fits nicely with my VP2 and MH-C9000. I look forward to trying it out. I would never want to just have one charger anyway(two is one and one is none).


----------



## IPTelman (Nov 20, 2016)

I've had mine for a few weeks. 
Works great (subjective, I know) and you don't have to go pressing a bunch of different buttons to get things going.


----------



## MarioJP (Nov 20, 2016)

So the specs on this charger is when charging NiMh cells, It uses voltage as a way of terminating and if so, it stops around 1.46. Isn't that a bit low?


----------



## StandardBattery (Nov 20, 2016)

MarioJP said:


> So the specs on this charger is when charging NiMh cells, It uses voltage as a way of terminating and if so, it stops around 1.46. Isn't that a bit low?


The specs I've read just say that it has a max-voltage cut-off. That's a great safety feature and 1.45V I saw listed looks fine to me for NiMH. Having a max voltage cut-off does not mean it does not have other termination as well. I don't think the max cut off of 1.45V for NiMH means that the cells will be undercharged. Seems to align pretty close with my BC-700 with Eneloops. It's maybe a bit conservative compared to some earlier chargers that would let the battery get way too hot because they had a much higher cut-off voltage. I think this is a very good, very safe cutoff that will prevent battery damage caused by missed termination by one of the other signals. I like it, but I'll wait to see what HKJ says as he has a wider range of batteries old and new. It seems to me this could be the best NiMH charger they have ever made (and I guess it should be for the price).


----------



## MarioJP (Nov 20, 2016)

That's true if you want cells to last as long and perform like new years on end.


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## david57strat (Nov 21, 2016)

I finally bit the bullet and picked up an XTAR VP4 Plus Dragon Charger. What an amazing unit! It's so feature-filled, and came with a bunch of accessories (12-volt power cable, test leads, for built-in multi-meter, nylon carry case, etc. It's probably the most high-end charger I own, to date. It definitely takes up the most real estate of any of my chargers, on my desk. This thing is huge! It's the largest charger I own, thus far.

Banks 1 and 4 can charge at 2 Amps/Hr max, or 1 Amp/Hr x 4. Banks 2 and 3 will charge at .5 Amp/hr. or 1 Amp/Hr x 2.

All four slots are wide enough to accommodate 4 26650 batteries side-by-side, with the only limitation being charging at a rate of 1 Amp/Hr x 4 (as opposed to 2 Amp/Hr x 2, using slots 1 and 4 only). I can live with that.

It's going to take me a while to really use all of the features, to be able to comment on all of them; but off the bat, I noticed that the display is really huge. You get status for two banks at a time, much like the VC4 units.

I kind of wish they had made the display half the size, and made a way to show status of all four banks simultaneously, rather tan just Banks 1 and 4, or 2 and 3 (as with the VC4). This thing is gigantic! I thought my VC4 s were big lol.

The built-in multi-meter (with the included probes) works beautifully, displaying battery voltage and resistance. Very nice




. All you do is cross the leads, and it goes into multi-meter mode. Double pressing the Display button brings you back to whatever mode you were in (usually _charge_, for me).

I'll have to take some pictures in the near future.


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## IPTelman (Nov 22, 2016)

david57strat said:


> I finally bit the bullet and picked up an XTAR VP4 Plus Dragon Charger. What an amazing unit! It's so feature-filled, and came with a bunch of accessories (12-volt power cable, test leads, for built-in multi-meter, nylon carry case, etc. It's probably the most high-end charger I own, to date. It definitely takes up the most real estate of any of my chargers, on my desk. This thing is huge! It's the largest charger I own, thus far.
> 
> Banks 1 and 4 can charge at 2 Amps/Hr max, or 1 Amp/Hr x 4. Banks 2 and 3 will charge at .5 Amp/hr. or 1 Amp/Hr x 2.
> 
> ...


 Welcome to the Dragons Den.


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## Tachead (Nov 22, 2016)

Well, I received my Dragon today. I will post after I put it through its paces but, so far I am liking it:twothumbs.

Here is a crappy cell phone pic of it charging some 18650's...


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## MarioJP (Nov 22, 2016)

Tachead said:


> Well, I received my Dragon today. I will post after I put it through its paces but, so far I am liking it:twothumbs.
> 
> Here is a crappy cell phone pic of it charging some 18650's...



+1

That pic may have made up my mind for me lol. Quick question. The 2 cells on the right. Are they unprotected flat cells?


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## StandardBattery (Nov 22, 2016)

MarioJP said:


> +1
> 
> .... The 2 cells on the right. Are they unprotected flat cells?


I'd say so... definetly look like 2 Sanyo/Panasonic GA batteries. They are not completley flat though.


----------



## MarioJP (Nov 22, 2016)

StandardBattery said:


> I'd say so... definetly look like 2 Sanyo/Panasonic GA batteries. They are not completley flat though.



If it has no problems with the Panasonic 18650 B's i'm sold! lol.


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## stephenk (Nov 22, 2016)

Thanks for the photo. It looks pretty big. Certainly looks like it is easier to extract cells than on the Lii-500 !


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## Tachead (Nov 22, 2016)

MarioJP said:


> +1
> 
> That pic may have made up my mind for me lol. Quick question. The 2 cells on the right. Are they unprotected flat cells?



Lol, it is working great so far and has a very nice fit and finish as usual from Xtar. Even the nylon case it comes with is really nice. Its pretty easy to use too. Yep, they are Sanyo NCR18650GA's.


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## Tachead (Nov 22, 2016)

StandardBattery said:


> I'd say so... definetly look like 2 Sanyo/Panasonic GA batteries. They are not completley flat though.



Yep, they're GA's.


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## Tachead (Nov 22, 2016)

MarioJP said:


> If it has no problems with the Panasonic 18650 B's i'm sold! lol.



I only have protected "B's" so I cant tell you for sure but, I also charged some Keeppower IMR18350 blacks with no issues. As long as the positive electrode isn't countersunk you should be gtg. And, even then, a couple of electrode magnets would fix that.


----------



## Tachead (Nov 22, 2016)

stephenk said:


> Thanks for the photo. It looks pretty big. Certainly looks like it is easier to extract cells than on the Lii-500 !



No problem. Yep, she is pretty large. There is plenty of room around the cells for even large hands.


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## Tachead (Nov 22, 2016)

The only downside I can think of so far, after using it for a bit, other then the stuff we already talked about(lack of 0.25amp charge rate, no LifePO4/4.35V support, etc.) is that the charge rate can't be adjusted separately for each bay that I know of. The set charge rate is for all bays. So, if you want to charge 2x18350's and 2x18650's together, for instance, you have to go with the charge rate for the lower rated cells(0.5amps in this case) for all cells in the charger. That's not really a big deal for me though because I have other chargers and could just group cell sizes together when charging 4.


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## MarioJP (Nov 22, 2016)

Tachead said:


> I only have protected "B's" so I cant tell you for sure but, I also charged some Keeppower IMR18350 blacks with no issues. As long as the positive electrode isn't countersunk you should be gtg. And, even then, a couple of electrode magnets would fix that.



I saw the images. Looks almost identical. It may not have issue with the cells. Will have to see and find out.


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## Tachead (Nov 22, 2016)

The screen is awesome and super bright. It automatically dims after a minute or so to about half brightness and lights back up with a single click of the display button. It can also be turned off by holding the display button just like the VP2. It actually doesn't go fully off though, it just goes super dim so you can just barely read it. Its kind of cool. 

The DMM leads are very nice and are spring loaded. You can test voltage and resistance anytime too, even when charging, just touch the positive and negative leads together to go into DMM mode. Then, double click the display button to return to charge screen.

The memory function for the capacity test is nice too. You can go through and review both the actual measured capacity and capacity in(what was put back in) at anytime and it saves all 4 slots as one file. So, it looks like you actually get 64 x 4 battery tests saved.

The completion beep is nice too and it beeps when each of the 4 cells is done. It can also be turned off and on.

I'm pretty happy with it so far. I look forward to HKJ's review.


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## kaptain_zero (Nov 23, 2016)

I think we should stop using the term DMM in regards to this charger... It may measure low voltages (but there is no range given that I can see) and only DC voltages at that. It can measure internal resistance of a power cell, and it may possibly use a 4 wire method, but dull probes will NOT allow a proper measurement as you need the sharp tips to get through the tiny oxide layer that develops on the ends of the cells. I don't think you can use it to measure resistance like a DMM, so I would say you are NOT getting a DMM, but rather a cheesy low voltage meter and a claimed 4 wire internal resistance measurement of single power cells with sub quality probes. It does not appear to offer any other common feature of even low cost DMMs. I see nothing that will allow me to put away my Fluke DMM. 


The fact that it cannot charge 1, 2, 4, 5 or 6 cell hobby packs is also downright silly, not to mention the anaemic charge rate it provides on a 3 cell hobby pack. 


I like the fact Xtar is bringing out new chargers, but please.... let the engineers decide on the features... not the Marketing Dept.


I too look forward to HKJ's review, but I seriously doubt I would purchase this charger.... too much money has been wasted on marketing gimmicks.


Regards

Christian


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## stephenk (Nov 23, 2016)

Tachead said:


> The screen is awesome and super bright. It automatically dims after a minute or so to about half brightness and lights back up with a single click of the display button. It can also be turned off by holding the display button just like the VP2. It actually doesn't go fully off though, it just goes super dim so you can just barely read it. Its kind of cool.
> 
> The DMM leads are very nice and are spring loaded. You can test voltage and resistance anytime too, even when charging, just touch the positive and negative leads together to go into DMM mode. Then, double click the display button to return to charge screen.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the mini-review! Good to know that voltage can be measured during charging if required.


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## StandardBattery (Nov 23, 2016)

kaptain_zero said:


> I think we should stop using the term DMM in regards to this charger... ....


I agree we should not use the term DMM to refer to the Voltage and Ri measurement meter in this charger. 



stephenk said:


> Thanks for the mini-review! Good to know that voltage can be measured during charging if required.


Just to clarify, that's the voltage of another battery, not of any of the batteries being charged. 

Thanks for all the initial user comments being posted.


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## kreisl (Nov 23, 2016)

MarioJP said:


> If it has no problems with the Panasonic 18650 B's i'm sold! lol.



It has no problems with Panasonic NCR18650B's. In fact i ordered a new 4-pack from GB to test it with the charger.


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## Tachead (Nov 23, 2016)

kaptain_zero said:


> I think we should stop using the term DMM in regards to this charger... It may measure low voltages (but there is no range given that I can see) and only DC voltages at that. It can measure internal resistance of a power cell, and it may possibly use a 4 wire method, but dull probes will NOT allow a proper measurement as you need the sharp tips to get through the tiny oxide layer that develops on the ends of the cells. I don't think you can use it to measure resistance like a DMM, so I would say you are NOT getting a DMM, but rather a cheesy low voltage meter and a claimed 4 wire internal resistance measurement of single power cells with sub quality probes. It does not appear to offer any other common feature of even low cost DMMs. I see nothing that will allow me to put away my Fluke DMM.
> 
> 
> The fact that it cannot charge 1, 2, 4, 5 or 6 cell hobby packs is also downright silly, not to mention the anaemic charge rate it provides on a 3 cell hobby pack.
> ...



You should probably see one in person before you slander it man. The probes are very high quality and the tips are cross hatched into a series of sharp points. It may not be a Fluke(not like you need Fluke accuracy to measure the voltage of a tiny 3-4V lithium ion battery anyway lol) but, its accuracy seems pretty good compared to my $100+ DMM. Yes, it has limited functions but, it has what you need for the application.

Buy a real hobby charger them man. I think they just through that feature in for the quadcopter guys. This is not a hobby charger and if it was it would cost several times the price. My hobby charger setup was $600US. 

I agree that they could have incorporated more features like LifePO4 and 4.35V charging, 0.25amp charge rate, separate charge rates for each bank, etc. but, this is still a great charger from what I have seen so far. It is the best charger other then the MC3000 on the market right now feature wise imo and it is definitely better quality then the SKYRC products and even makes my MH-C9000 seam cheap in comparison.


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## Tachead (Nov 23, 2016)

StandardBattery said:


> I agree we should not use the term DMM to refer to the Voltage and Ri measurement meter in this charger.
> 
> 
> Just to clarify, that's the voltage of another battery, not of any of the batteries being charged.
> ...



I agree it has limited functions compared to a real DMM but, DMM is an easy abbreviation and a heck of a lot easier then typing a description every time. It is digital and has more then one function so, it still fits the definition of a DMM.

It can measure other batteries or any of the battery being charged.


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## Tachead (Nov 23, 2016)

stephenk said:


> Thanks for the mini-review! Good to know that voltage can be measured during charging if required.




No problem:thumbsup:


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## Viking (Nov 23, 2016)

Tachead said:


> The only downside I can think of so far, after using it for a bit, other then the stuff we already talked about(lack of 0.25amp charge rate, no LifePO4/4.35V support, etc.) is that *the charge rate can't be adjusted separately for each bay that I know of*.* The set charge rate is for all bays.* So, if you want to charge 2x18350's and 2x18650's together, for instance, you have to go with the charge rate for the lower rated cells(0.5amps in this case) for all cells in the charger. That's not really a big deal for me though because I have other chargers and could just group cell sizes together when charging 4.



Thanks for the information. That's a dealbreaker for me


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## maukka (Nov 23, 2016)

No individual charge rate selection for the bays? Say it isn't so. Totally unacceptable for $80 charger!


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## Tachead (Nov 23, 2016)

maukka said:


> No individual charge rate selection for the bays? Say it isn't so. Totally unacceptable for $80 charger!



It doesn't look like it. I am not 100% though. HKJ's review should tell all.


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## Tachead (Nov 23, 2016)

Viking said:


> Thanks for the information. That's a dealbreaker for me



Yep, that's what it looks like unless I am missing something. Wasn't a deal breaker for me though because I already had a VP2 and MH-C9000. Between the 3, I can charge any combo of cells of any type. 

I dont think people are getting the intended market for this charger. I think it is designed to be a high quality, simple, easy to use charger, for your average user who doesn't want to have to invest a lot of time learning how to use it but, still wants to have some advance features. It is not a enthusiast/fanatic charger. If you want that the SKYRC MC3000 is the charger for you.


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## kreisl (Nov 23, 2016)

Tachead said:


> I think it is designed to be a high quality, simple, easy to use charger, for your average user who doesn't want to have to invest a lot of time learning how to use it but, still wants to have some advance features.



I would certainly agree with that!


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## maukka (Nov 23, 2016)

Maybe it works like the Liitokala Lii-500. After you've inserted a cell you choose the charge rate, or if you prefer the same rate for all of the bays, select the rate after you've inserted all of them.


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## Tachead (Nov 23, 2016)

kreisl said:


> I've got a question for you owners:
> 
> Let's say you're testing the capacity of 2 batteries (in slot#3 and slot#4) with the TEST program.
> 
> ...



It appears not. Unless I don't know how to do it it looks like all functions are for all 4 bays. Maybe HKJ can chime in to confirm.


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## kreisl (Nov 23, 2016)

maukka said:


> After you've inserted a cell you choose the charge rate, or if you prefer the same rate for all of the bays, select the rate after you've inserted all of them.



Yes, one can change charge rate at any time in parallel. It is pretty cool.


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## HKJ (Nov 23, 2016)

Tachead said:


> Maybe HKJ can chime in to confirm.



The charger only do one charge/discharge function at a time and it is for all slots.


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## MarioJP (Nov 23, 2016)

Can anyone explain why 4.35v is important for some people? Never fully understood the 2 different voltages on Li-ion cells. The only 4.35v battery i've have seen so far is what's in Samsung phones. Is there any reasons or something special about these cells?

Thanks.


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## Tachead (Nov 23, 2016)

HKJ said:


> The charger only do one charge/discharge function at a time and it is for all slots.




Thank you sir:thumbsup:


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## Gauss163 (Nov 23, 2016)

kaptain_zero said:


> [...] It can measure internal resistance of a power cell, and it may possibly use a 4 wire method, but dull probes will NOT allow a proper measurement as you need the sharp tips to get through the tiny oxide layer that develops on the ends of the cells. I don't think you can use it to measure resistance like a DMM, [...]



That's not necessarily a detriment. If you want to measure the (total) resistance as seen by typical devices, then you should use connections that are similar to the connections made in your devices. Most devices do not have sharp terminals, so measuring "IR" with razor sharp probes may yield a significantly lower number than what you will see in typical devices. Whether or not that is good or bad depends on what you plan to do with those measurements.

To effectively use IR you need to take into account both the cell's internal resistance, the terminal contact resistance, resistance in wires, etc. Further, you need to know a bit about what method was used to calculate IR. This is not completely trivial (e.g. see the recent discussion between HKJ and I about making sense of the contradictions in his reported equal IR claims for both protected and non-protected cells).

But this is really a moot point, because IR is generally so poorly understood that most users do not have any clue how to _effectively _use it. Further, there does not yet exist any rigorous comparison of IR functions on analyzing chargers. Hopefully these gaps will be remedied in the near future.




kaptain_zero said:


> [...] I too look forward to HKJ's review, but I seriously doubt I would purchase this charger.... too much money has been wasted on marketing gimmicks.



"Marketing gimmicks" appears to be the hallmark of XTAR chargers. It seems to me that they are targeting less technical users who don't have the expertise to debunk the snake oil. That's probably a large lucrative market now that Li-ion cells have become more widely used by the general public (e.g. in vaping).

I've probably lost a significant amount of hair over the number of times I've been scratching my head over the bizarre design choices made in various XTAR chargers. The "Dragon" raises that to new levels.


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## Tachead (Nov 23, 2016)

Gauss163 said:


> That's not necessarily a detriment. If you want to measure the (total) resistance as seen by typical devices, then you should use connections that are similar to the connections made in your devices. Most devices do not have sharp terminals, so measuring "IR" with razor sharp probes may yield a significantly lower number than what you will see in typical devices. Whether or not that is good or bad depends on what you plan to do with those measurements.
> 
> To effectively use IR you need to take into account both the cell's internal resistance, the terminal contact resistance, resistance in wires, etc. Further, you need to know a bit about what method was used to calculate IR. This is not completely trivial (e.g. see the recent discussion between HKJ and I about making sense of the contradictions in his reported equal IR claims for both protected and non-protected cells).
> 
> ...



Lol, snake oil. Xtar has consistently released top quality chargers with great accuracy and charging algorithms. Tests by HKJ and other people show they are consistently among the best chargers made. Even their materials, fit, finish, and warranty are at the top of the game and better then most other companies. They are just meant to be simple and tailor to normal users as apposed to enthusiast tech junkies. Not everyone wants to sit in their basement and fiddle with batteries and chargers all day and have to read a novel to figure out how to use their charger. Xtar just makes quality, accurate, and easy to use chargers and that is what the majority of people want. Far more people just want to chuck a battery in, hit a button or two, and get back to their life. Do they always include all the combinations of features people want? Well probably not but, that is up to the consumer to decide and chose a charger or brand accordingly. It's fine if this is not the charger for you, go and buy a MC3000 and fiddle until your heart is content but, don't slander Xtar just because you are not the target market for their chargers.


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## Tachead (Nov 23, 2016)

MarioJP said:


> Can anyone explain why 4.35v is important for some people? Never fully understood the 2 different voltages on Li-ion cells. The only 4.35v battery i've have seen so far is what's in Samsung phones. Is there any reasons or something special about these cells?
> 
> Thanks.



Certain cells like the LG E1, D1, Samsung 32A, 30A, 30B, exc. are designed to be charged to 4.35V instead of the usual 4.20V.


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## Gauss163 (Nov 23, 2016)

Tachead said:


> Xtar has consistently released top quality chargers [...]



You continue to make (unfounded) claims about XTAR having better quality than other chargers yet you have not given even a shred of evidence to support these claims, even after I gave prior evidence to the contrary. 

In case you didn't bother to follow the links I gave, for your convenience I reproduce below an example of one of the many XTAR chargers that have literally melted down (a serious problem that I've _never _seen reported for competitors such as Opus, Liitokala or SkyRC MC3000). That's certainly _not _better quality (not to mention much worse _safety_).

And regarding your claims about better housing etc here is a letter from XTAR about a recall "due to durability concerns in the plastic housing." (exact quote from XTAR letter)

Anyone who pays attention on this and similar forums (e.g. BLF) will know that XTAR is not any better than most of its (non-lower-tier) competitors on such matters The higher price does not necessarily imply better quality. Rather, it pays for all their flashy marketing. Potential buyers should search these forums if they want to make informed buying decisions.


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## HKJ (Nov 23, 2016)

Gauss163 said:


> You continue to make (unfounded) claims about XTAR having better quality than other chargers yet you have not given even a shred of evidence to support these claims



It is just about as silly as saying that Apple or Samsung makes top quality phones or that Ford or GM makes top quality cars.
Just about any company makes faulty products sometimes.


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## Gauss163 (Nov 23, 2016)

HKJ said:


> It is just about as silly as saying that Apple or Samsung makes top quality phones or that Ford or GM makes top quality cars. Just about any company makes faulty products sometimes.



Non-sequitur argument. The point is that no evidence has been given to support his claim, and that the evidence in the forums points to the contrary. 

It is ridiculous to expect much better quality or design at these price points. But the flashy marketing hype has apparently mislad some buyers (not to mention brand loyalty playing its typical role in illogical arguments).


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## Tachead (Nov 23, 2016)

Gauss163 said:


> You continue to make (unfounded) claims about XTAR having better quality than other chargers yet you have not given even a shred of evidence to support these claims, even after I gave prior evidence to the contrary.
> 
> In case you didn't bother to follow the links I gave, for your convenience I reproduce below an example of one of the many XTAR chargers that have literally melted down (a serious problem that I've _never _seen reported for competitors such as Opus, Liitokala or SkyRC MC3000). That's certainly _not _better quality (not to mention much worse _safety_).
> 
> Anyone who pays attention on this and similar forums (e.g. BLF) will know that XTAR is not any better than most of its (non-lower-tier) competitors on such matters The higher price does not necessarily imply better quality. Rather, it pays for all their flashy marketing. Potential buyers should search these forums if they want to make informed buying decisions.



The evidence is I have owned many, many chargers and can see the differences myself. Many people, I would say most on this sight alone seam to agree. Your "evidence" mean nothing. As I said before, all electronics fail from time to time. I once had a brand new $5000 Samsung LED TV die in a couple of months. 

What about the constant firmware issues, broken terminal posts, exc. with the MC3000 since it came out? I am sure if I dig I could find issues with all the chargers you listed. But, there is no way to tell how many of each brand has been sold and no way to figure out a failure rate. It all means nothing and I have better things to do then argue pointless conjecture. 

I have been following this site and others since they started. And, have been into flashlights and rechargeables since before LED's existed. Xtar chargers frequently test better then most competitors and reviewers and owners generally have higher opinions of them from my experience. I also have compared, personally, many different chargers and I generally find Xtars materials, fit, finish, screens, and accessories to be superior to other brands. Also, most flashlight and vape shops I have been to or talked to say they prefer Xtar also and see less issues with them.

Anyway, you clearly don't like Xtar and that is fine, everyone is entitled to their opinion. So, why don't you stop posting and following this thread? This thread is to talk about the Dragon. You are just derailing and cluttering it up. Start a new thread if you want to talk about your dislike of Xtar.


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## kreisl (Nov 23, 2016)

Tachead said:


> This thread is to talk about the Dragon. You are just derailing and cluttering it up. Start a new thread if you want to talk about your dislike of Xtar.



+ 1

Let's focus on the Dragon.


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## HKJ (Nov 23, 2016)

Gauss163 said:


> Non-sequitur argument. The point is that no evidence has been given to support his claim, and that the evidence in the forums points to the contrary.



Not really, some people will call the above brands top quality, but they have all had serious faults.



Gauss163 said:


> It is ridiculous to expect much better quality or design at these price points. But the flashy marketing hype has apparently mislad some buyers (not to mention brand loyalty playing its typical role in illogical arguments).



If you are comparing quality to professional chargers you are way off. This thread are not about professional charging equipment and I have not seen any thread about it. If you want to talk about professional charging equipment, then start a thread about it.


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## Gauss163 (Nov 23, 2016)

@Tachead. That's precisely my point. All these (non-lower-tier) consumer level charges have issues. None of them are _much _better than they others when it comes to quality. Claims to the contrary are without merit.


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## Gauss163 (Nov 23, 2016)

HKJ said:


> If you are comparing quality to professional chargers you are way off. This thread are not about professional charging equipment and I have not seen any thread about it. If you want to talk about professional charging equipment, then start a thread about it.



I made no mention of professional chargers, so I don't know where you got that idea from.


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## HKJ (Nov 23, 2016)

Gauss163 said:


> I made no mention of professional chargers, so I don't know where you got that idea from.



Because you are talking about "price points", but I would like to know what non-professional chargers at a higher price point is better quality.


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## Gauss163 (Nov 23, 2016)

HKJ said:


> Because you are talking about "price points", buAs I said, tt I would like to know what non-professional chargers at a higher price point is better quality.



My point was that - except for lower-tier no-name chargers - most of the better brand consumer chargers are in roughly the same league when it comes to quality. Some models (and runs) may have issues, but no brand is leagues ahead of the others (despite what the marketing departments claim).


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## Tachead (Nov 23, 2016)

Gauss163 said:


> My point was that - except for lower-tier no-name chargers - most of the better brand consumer chargers are in roughly the same league when it comes to quality. Some models (and runs) may have issues, but no brand is leagues ahead of the others (despite what the marketing departments claim).



I don't get where you are getting this "marketing department" crap from. People in this thread, including myself, stated our opinions regarding the quality of Xtar chargers. I personally think Xtar offers better materials, fit, finish, reliability, and accessories then many other brands. I am not alone in this opinion. Send some emails and find out what the retailers that sell these chargers think. I have, and most pick Xtar over the competition. Some wont even sell a lot of other brands any longer because they had so many issues. Then there is the reviews, I bet if you did a tally, you would find that Xtar gets consistently higher reviews for their charging accuracy and quality then much of the competition. Xtar is also backed by a worldwide network of dealers unlike many of the other brands who can only be found on cheap Chinese discount stores and Ebay. Then there is their warranty which is better then most other brands. There is a reason who a lot of people including myself have formed this opinion.


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## Gauss163 (Nov 23, 2016)

@Tachead I'm not interested in yet more motley_ opinions _- only facts.

Here's one final _fact _for you (to debunk your claims about higher case quality). Here is a letter from XTAR about a VP2 recall "due to durability concerns in the plastic housing." (exact quote from the linked XTAR letter)

I have no further interest in continuing this debate. Informed buyers can follow the discussion from said links, do web searches etc.


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## Tachead (Nov 23, 2016)

Gauss163 said:


> @Tachead I have no interest in yet more random _opinions _- only facts.



There are plenty facts in what I just wrote as well. But, you don't seem to want to acknowledge them. That's ok, I don't want to argue either. Enjoy whatever brand and model that tickles your fancy sir:thumbsup:

Now, back to the Dragon...

I'm still liking it a lot. I ran some capacity tests last night and it worked flawlessly and I got a nice beep to let me know when each cell was finished. I really like the memory feature, it is so nice to be able to review all your previous capacity tests whenever you need to.


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## nbp (Nov 23, 2016)

Hey, know what's funny? When I get a reported post email from the Batteries section I already know with 99% accuracy that Gauss is involved. How's that algorithm suit you? Stop baiting and trolling everyone, Gauss, CPF staff is sick of it.


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## Greta (Nov 23, 2016)

Tachead said:


> Anyway, you clearly don't like Xtar and that is fine, everyone is entitled to their opinion. So, why don't you stop posting and following this thread? This thread is to talk about the Dragon. You are just derailing and cluttering it up. Start a new thread if you want to talk about your dislike of Xtar.



Agree 100%! Not a suggestion at this point but more of warning - understand?


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## tatasal (Nov 23, 2016)

HKJ said:


> The charger only do one charge/discharge function at a time and it is for all slots.



I consider this a monumental lapse in design, it kills the deal for me.


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## MAD777 (Nov 23, 2016)

tatasal said:


> I consider this a monumental lapse in design, it kills the deal for me.


I've been following this thread and trying to figure out the large attraction to this fairly expensive charger. Now we discover the bays cannot work independently. Certainly seems to be step backwards in technology, as I have less expensive chargers, with all the capabilities of this Xtar, but can operate each bay independently. I can't figure out what it offers for the price.

From my personal experience with several chargers of different brands, including Xtar, none have given me the slightest problem. So based on my limited sample size, quality is a level playing field.


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## StandardBattery (Nov 23, 2016)

HKJ said:


> The charger only do one charge/discharge function at a time and it is for all slots.





tatasal said:


> I consider this a monumental lapse in design, it kills the deal for me.


*+1 *just getting so much harder to love.

This charger seems to have one nice feature, a pretty good Ri measurement for a consumer device. Useful these days with multiple cell hi-drain lights, especially if you don't have a high amperage discharge jig or electronic load.


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## stephenk (Nov 23, 2016)

MAD777 said:


> I've been following this thread and trying to figure out the large attraction to this fairly expensive charger. Now we discover the bays cannot work independently. Certainly seems to be step backwards in technology, as I have less expensive chargers, with all the capabilities of this Xtar, but can operate each bay independently. I can't figure out what it offers for the price.
> 
> From my personal experience with several chargers of different brands, including Xtar, none have given me the slightest problem. So based on my limited sample size, quality is a level playing field.


No charger is perfect. For example the Lii-500 allows for different charging rates and functions per bay, but only recognises cells when it is turned on. Thus you can't charge two cells consecutively in one bay whilst performing a test in another bay. I personally tend to charge in batches of the same type of cell and thus the Dragon would fit my workflow well. Obviously it may not suit other users workflows.


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## tatasal (Nov 23, 2016)

stephenk said:


> No charger is perfect. .



Oh yes, this is true, but we are not talking about charger perfection here but for an almost $90 analyzer that can't do what the Opus can easily do at $30, that is, fully-independent channels without mode limitations whatsoever is IMO, a serious deficiency for my needs.

And btw, I have several Xtar chargers too and I find their quality at par with their prices. Perhaps in the next edition?


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## kaptain_zero (Nov 24, 2016)

I'm out. I've said my peace, and I've made my points on this charger, and the manufacturers claim, however ridicules it may be. 

I'm not anti Xtar, I'm just anti Marketing BS. If YOU wish to purchase this charger and claim it's the greatest thing ever.... go ahead. Those of use who can read a spec sheet, will do what we feel is sensible. It's just a pity that other will get sucked in by the Marketing BS, and the opinions of the unedutcated.


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## Greta (Nov 24, 2016)

kaptain_zero said:


> I'm out. I've said my peace, and I've made my points on this charger, and the manufacturers claim, however ridicules it may be.
> 
> I'm not anti Xtar, I'm just anti Marketing BS. If YOU wish to purchase this charger and claim it's the greatest thing ever.... go ahead. Those of use who can read a spec sheet, will do what we feel is sensible. It's just a pity that other will get sucked in by the Marketing BS, and the opinions of the unedutcated.



Noted. Opinion placed in same category as all other opinions. Now move along and please refrain from further comments promoting your obvious agenda to troll and trash XTAR threads. One and only warning.


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## MarioJP (Nov 24, 2016)

I just read somewhere in these comments that the Dragon can only charge/discharge at a time but not simultaneously? Granted that i charge or discharge cells at once, but having the option to do both at the same time would be nice. Something to take into consideration when the decision is final. Still, i'll wait when the review is final.


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## david57strat (Nov 24, 2016)

I'm very much enjoying the use of this charger, thus far.

One thing I might change, in future versions, would be to make the display lettering smaller, and have it simultaneously display the battery status for all four banks, rather than just 1 & 4, or 2 & 3, at any given time. The display lettering is absolutely HUGE! I understand why the unit is huge, in order to accommodate four large batteries simultaneously, and probably to provide for more robust heat sinking, to keep things cool, but the display characters needn't be so large. It's not a charger for the vision-impaired lol. My opinion, only. I'm sure opinions vary.

I would also recommend not having the current/refresh and record/test buttons be flush with the panel, but maybe protrude just enough to be easily able to feel in the dark.

If I were to discharge batteries, I would be doing them in groups (like from a multi-cell light, for instance), so that's not really an issue for me. Since I have so many of other chargers (mostly XTARs lol), it'll probably never become a need, for me, although I suppose it could be a bonus feature.

I had to stretch myself, financially, in order to make this purchase; but I really love XTARs customer service and the quality of the product that I've used, thus far (This newly-acquired Dragon makes XTAR #14, for me - and all of them are still very much in service.

Below, you'll find an example of the customer service I've received from them, aside from the always friendly service I receive whenever I walk into their store (Lumens Direct, formerly known as XTAR Direct):

One evening, I was charging a 26650 battery in one of my SV2 units, when I heard this loud snap. I immediately looked down and noticed that the internal spring had snapped, and there was no longer any tension on the battery, so it stopped charging. The other well worked fine, so I completed the charge, then packed up the charger. 

The store is maybe a five minute drive from where I live, and I had the day off the next day; so I took a quick drive over there, after having messaged them on Facebook Messenger), explaining my dilemma. These SV2s are probably some of my most used chargers of the bunch. I have two of them, and I've used them heavily, every day, for the past six months. A lot of my EDC stuff gets charged on these (and other models), daily, when I arrive home, no matter what the hour, so I always leave the house with freshly-charged batteries in my EDC lights.


Anyway, I spoke with Allan (as I almost always do, while in the store. Great guy/friendly, first rate service, always), and he explained that Aaron (who wasn't in, at the time) usually handles the Facebook Messenger responses (Allan hadn't seen my message). Regardless, no sooner had I begun to explain that I had this problem with that charger, when he immediately told me he could just exchange it, and he walked to the back, pulled a brand new one, and that was that. No questions asked, no forms to fill out. Just an instant, hassle-free exchange. 


That’s A1, top shelf customer service. That’s why I will always gladly buy XTAR products. 

Many companies will allow you to make a straight out exchange within the first thirty days of purchase; but after that time period, many others will make you ship the unit to the factory, for repair, or replacement - and sometimes, that can take weeks. Usually there's an RMA process involved. It's a pain in the neck.

It took _longer _for me to drive all of five minutes, to the store, than it did to end up with a new unit in my hands.

What other charger companies would do that?

Immediately following that hassle-free exchange, I bought the Dragon lol.


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## MarioJP (Nov 24, 2016)

Good catch. I didn't realize about the display only showing 2 bays at a time. I'll be ok with that if switching channels is straightforward and short clicks lol.


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## david57strat (Nov 24, 2016)

Tachead said:


> I don't get where you are getting this "marketing department" crap from. People in this thread, including myself, stated our opinions regarding the quality of Xtar chargers. I personally think Xtar offers better materials, fit, finish, reliability, and accessories then many other brands. I am not alone in this opinion. Send some emails and find out what the retailers that sell these chargers think. I have, and most pick Xtar over the competition. Some wont even sell a lot of other brands any longer because they had so many issues. Then there is the reviews, I bet if you did a tally, you would find that Xtar gets consistently higher reviews for their charging accuracy and quality then much of the competition. Xtar is also backed by a worldwide network of dealers unlike many of the other brands who can only be found on cheap Chinese discount stores and Ebay. Then there is their warranty which is better then most other brands. There is a reason who a lot of people including myself have formed this opinion.



Agreed, on all points, made here (Please see Post #286).


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## bob_ninja (Nov 25, 2016)

Just finished reading this review of 

http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?426279-quot-Review-quot-Gyrfalcon-ALL44


You can find the HKJ review for the bigger ALL88 version easily.

Considering that it addresses the noted shortcomings (lower currents, all chemistries supported, V readout, full display for all slots) and is much cheaper, is there any specific reason to pay 2x or 3x more for this model???

Not looking to start another quality mess; I bought several Xtar chargers and find them very good quality and reliable.
However I have no experience with GYRFALCON.

I can see the tiny extra feature of IR measurement this one has, but I already have that with Opus, so meh.

Just curious at the big price difference. Am I missing something?

Thoughts?


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## stephenk (Nov 25, 2016)

bob_ninja said:


> Just finished reading this review of
> 
> http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?426279-quot-Review-quot-Gyrfalcon-ALL44
> 
> ...



Though it appears to be a competent multi-chem charger, the Gyrfalcon ALL44 appears to lack analysing function and iR measurement. Two pretty important things for battery enthusiasts! Like the Opus and Liitokala, it also doesn't have a country specific warranty in most countries.


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## Davekan (Nov 28, 2016)

The ir feature on my unit is great. It give repeatable results on all my cells. I measured my half charged resting Vt6 cells at 13 milliohms. 30Q are 16 milliohms.

Dave


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## Tachead (Nov 28, 2016)

Davekan said:


> The ir feature on my unit is great. It give repeatable results on all my cells. I measured my half charged resting Vt6 cells at 13 milliohms. 30Q are 16 milliohms.
> 
> Dave



+1, mine works well too.


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## kreisl (Nov 28, 2016)

Tachead said:


> Davekan said:
> 
> 
> > The ir feature on my unit is great.
> ...









i have my own opinion on the IR measurement capability of our lot of consumer chargers and i certainly have one regarding dragon but i'll refrain from claiming things until HKJ has published his test results on dis topique confirming my results.


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## Tachead (Nov 28, 2016)

kreisl said:


> i have my own opinion on the IR measurement capability of our lot of consumer chargers and i certainly have one regarding dragon but i'll refrain from claiming things until HKJ has published his test results on dis topique confirming my results.



Of course one small feature(IR measurement) on an $80 consumer grade charger is only so accurate but, I find it quite useful and it gives a way to compare cells and group them together as well as a way to check them over time. You can only expect so much from this man, its not a $1000 Fluke. Not to mention that measuring IR with probes is only ever going to be so accurate due to variations in contact surfaces, pressure, etc. I think it works well for what it is but, do tell, what is your opinion? What are your results? If you are confident in them then why do you need HKJ to hold your hand? Lets hear them.


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## kreisl (Nov 28, 2016)

MarioJP said:


> Can the Dragon be USB Powered? I seen other Xtar chargers that can charge cells from USB.


No, it cannot. I've tested it with a USB-to-barrel cable. When you supply power from a USB power output source (5V), the charger hardly powers up and the LCD screen and 4 LED's show malfunction.


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## Tachead (Nov 28, 2016)

kreisl said:


> i am not as confident as you two seemingly are
> 
> (…)
> 
> ...



I don't know about confident, I just like the charger for the most part so far and think the IR measurement works well enough for what it is. I only had so high of expectations though. I have a Revolectrix Power Lab 8 V2 powered by a SKYRC 1200watt/50amp power supply if I want to get fancy. I just bought this charger for its simplicity and ease of use. I find with this Dragon I dont need my DMM on the charging bench anymore and it gives me quick and easy charging, voltage and IR readout, and capacity measurement. Thats what I was looking for and I am liking it so far.

Glad you like the Dragon and its case too:thumbsup:. It is a nice case


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## MarioJP (Nov 28, 2016)

Can the Dragon be USB Powered? I seen other Xtar chargers that can charge cells from USB. That's a pretty handy feature actually lol.


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## Tachead (Nov 28, 2016)

MarioJP said:


> Can the Dragon be USB Powered? I seen other Xtar chargers that can charge cells from USB. That's a pretty handy feature actually lol.



No, it is 12V like the VP2 and comes with a 12V AC adapter as well as a 12V car charger.


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## brighterthanthesun (Dec 2, 2016)

As an inspector, I have been into flashlights for 25 years. I discovered CPF a couple years ago and it has opened my eyes to the industry. It was the flashlights that hooked me, the chargers were just there to refresh my batteries for the main event, the flashlight. I have a SV2 and a D2, with the xtar being my go to charger. I now know that it would be helpful to get an analyzing charger, so I have been reading all I can and have narrowed it to the Opus ans SkyRC. I was holding off hoping that the Dragon would be the sweet spot right between the Opus and SkyRC and meet my needs, but it has not. 

I am not an Xtar hater, quite the oposite in fact. But for a nearly $100 charger they really missed the mark. I am sure that it will perform it's funtions very well with the build quality we all appreciate, but failing to include a low charge rate for small cells and fully independant charging bays are omissions that are too significant IMO.

I will have to decide if I am up to the complexity of the SkyRC or if the lesser build quality (and price) of the Opus will fill best meet my needs. Sorry Xtar, but I think you really missed the mark with the Dragon.


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## MarioJP (Dec 2, 2016)

And also not able to display 4 bays at once. Yeah that could be a deal breaker for me. At that price range, at least the MC3000 charger displays all cells at once.


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## kreisl (Dec 2, 2016)

brighterthanthesun said:


> , but failing to include a low charge rate for small cells and


imo they didn't fail but chose to. charge rates are controlled by firmware. with a firmware upgrade the charger could include low charge rates.
possible reasoning so far: they chose not to include low charge rate because of the TEST function, which draws -0.25A (nominal) for a "0.5A TEST" and -0.5A (nominal) for a "1.0A TEST" and "2.0A TEST". A say "0.2A TEST" would draw -0.1A (nominal). I am guessing that dragon could produce such low currents with the firmware but for a small battery say 950mAh (AA, AAA, 14500) the discharge routine alone would take ~9.5hrs which was probably considered a zumutung by the maker. of course such reasoning would be arguable and users with much spare time for TESTing pun intended would not agree.

for all the xtar fans out there, why does nobody get in touch with them and simply ask what's been going on with that, why they didn't include low charge rate? Please go ahead and get some answers for us all:
http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/forumdisplay.php?178


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## brighterthanthesun (Dec 2, 2016)

I have not talked with them, but I have sent a few emails and was assured that my comments would get to thier engineers. If I were to design a charger, I would start by spending a day or two reading the CPF charger threads and HJK charger reviews. This would gp a long way in designing a charger. Take Xtar for example, if you were given the opportunity to redesign one of thier multichemistry chargers I bet you could draw up a great charger by reading our comments and taking the best features from existing models. I am far from an expert but I know that I could.


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## HKJ (Dec 2, 2016)

brighterthanthesun said:


> I have not talked with them, but I have sent a few emails and was assured that my comments would get to thier engineers. If I were to design a charger, I would start by spending a day or two reading the CPF charger threads and HJK charger reviews. This would gp a long way in designing a charger. Take Xtar for example, if you were given the opportunity to redesign one of thier multichemistry chargers I bet you could draw up a great charger by reading our comments and taking the best features from existing models. I am far from an expert but I know that I could.



Charges are designed with different target audience in mind. Xtar tries to make their chargers very simple to understand and operate and I believe they succeed in that. I would prefer a more technical charger and that means the MC3000 is my preferred charger, but that does not make the Dragon a bad charger (I have more to say about the Dragon in a few days).


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## Tachead (Dec 2, 2016)

HKJ said:


> Charges are designed with different target audience in mind. Xtar tries to make their chargers very simple to understand and operate and I believe they succeed in that. I would prefer a more technical charger and that means the MC3000 is my preferred charger, but that does not make the Dragon a bad charger (I have more to say about the Dragon in a few days).



Exactly, it is by choice. Xtar chargers are meant to be simple. They are targeting the largest market for chargers. I bet there are exponentially more people who just want a simple, easy to use charger worldwide. The Dragon is a simple, easy to use charger with some advanced features built in for the more technical average user. Most people outside this site, or even subforum, don't have the slightest interest in investing the amount of time it takes to learn how to use a charger like the MC3000. Not to mention having to deal with firmware updates and possibly receiving one of the earlier production models. I think most people just have better things to do then mess around with chargers and batteries and just want something they can learn quickly, throw some batteries in, hit a button or two, and get back to their lives.

Looking forward to your review by the way HKJ. Thanks again for all your hard work:thumbsup:


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## oakcliff (May 20, 2017)

HKJ, looking forward to your review. The MC3000 also looks like a good charger.


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## HKJ (May 20, 2017)

oakcliff said:


> HKJ, looking forward to your review. The MC3000 also looks like a good charger.



I posted the review of the Dragon a long time ago, the MC3000 even longer time ago.


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## oakcliff (May 20, 2017)

Sorry about that. I'm still learning my way through the site and just jumped into all this a few days ago. I just found both of the reviews and I'm planning to get the MC3000. I already have the Xtar Vc4 and the Powerex MH-C9000. Do you think there is much benefit from getting the MC3000 as well?


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## HKJ (May 21, 2017)

oakcliff said:


> Sorry about that. I'm still learning my way through the site and just jumped into all this a few days ago. I just found both of the reviews and I'm planning to get the MC3000. I already have the Xtar Vc4 and the Powerex MH-C9000. Do you think there is much benefit from getting the MC3000 as well?



I you want to analyze batteries the MC3000 is the best charger around, for just charging it is overkill.


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## tripplec (May 29, 2017)

I've been considering adding another charger with a quality clear display highly tuned for LiIon Batteries with 4 channels, NiMH as well though, selectable currents and a cooling FAN!!. Its pretty much a must have to control the heat especial with analyzing functions. Internal components are getting to hot for my liking as well as affecting the cells they're charging at the 1A rate. I looked at the VC4 Xtar but found out why the PS was so low current (2.1A) as its USB input charger. Scratch that and Opus is the only one with a fan thats close but not quite bang on w/version 2.2 or 3.1 from what I have gathered. Especially for their price. So many have been released buy I am not seeing a shinning star, yet.


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## david57strat (Aug 24, 2017)

After eight months of daily use, my Dragon failed. I placed batteries in the charger, and the read-outs looked okay, initially. When I removed a battery, the readout displayed as if it was still charging. 

I unplugged the power supply, and plugged it back in to re-initialize the charger. No good. The displays showed readings as if there were batteries in them channels, regardless. I, also, could not adjust the charge rate to 2 Amp/hr.

I also noticed tapping of the test leads switched modes over, from charge, to volt/internal resistance metering worked, but the double tap of the display button no longer switched the unit back over to charge mode. It was stuck in voltage metering/test leads mode. 

I left the unit unplugged and messaged Lumens Direct (The XTAR distributor, from whom I had purchased the charger). 

The next morning, I plugged the unit in, and it did the diagnostic function, then powered off completely for a few seconds, then did the initialize screen, and repeated that, every few seconds or so. 

When the seller got back to me, they apologized for the problems, and advised me to ship back the charger (their physical store was no longer there. They had moved), and they provided me with an RMA #, following up with a prepaid shipping level, sent in an email, to ship the unit back. 

They told me to send only the charger, and none of the accessories (which meant keeping the case, the two power supplies, test leads, etc.). They also told me that the didn't have stock of the Dragons, and it would be a few weeks before they did. This was fine with me, since I had a slew of other chargers; although I admit, I was disappointed that their flagship charger would or could ever fail. 

But, it happens, right? Could be a car, a TV set, or anything else, regardless of price. 

Some weeks passed, and I checked their on-line store, but they weren't expecting stock until the end of November. I followed up with them, and after a few exchanges, we agreed that they would ship me two SV2 units (which I really loved), and refund the balance - which they did. They took care of me - always have. 

In the meantime, I purchased a second Dragon charger, on one of Andrew and Amanda's "Deal of the Day" sales, for $49.00 - a steal, as far as I was concerned. When the unit arrived, I tested it out, and it seemed to have the same problem; but that wasn't the case. I realized that I had plugged the test leads (using their USB plug) into the wrong USB outlet. Plugging it, into the appropriate plug, fixed everything. 

If only that had been the case with the initial unit I purchased elsewhere. That first charger was sitting on the desk, for eight months, and used, the same way, every day, and the test leads had been plugged in, and left that way, from Day One. 

The unit was unresponsive, even when I tried unplugging the test leads. 

So, I still have one of these Dragons, and it appears to be working flawlessly. 

No complaints. Since then, I purchased two Nitecore SC4 chargers, which have replaced my old D4s, and are pretty amazing little chargers, that I got through a Group Buy, on Budget Light Forums. 

At first, I assumed the problem I had with the Dragon was a production issue, and was very saddened to feel that I needed to return the second charger; but equally relieved/pleased that this wasn't the case. Of course,Andrew and Amanda immediately issued an RMA, which I never ended up needing to use.

The bottom line, is I'm still very confident about the quality of XTAR chargers, and have never received anything less than first rate customer service, any time I've ever had an issue with one.

I will gladly continue buying XTAR products.

As for improvements they could possibly make for the "V2" version of the Dragon:

1) I would make the display characters smaller, so that it could show the status of all four channels, simultaneously, rather than just two at a time. The display is gigantic (I look at it and I feel it's for the visually impaired, or something lol); so, I think this is entirely possible, while still being easily readable; 

2) I would also make the current/refresh and record/test buttons protrude, just a bit, so they're more easy to feel and find, in the dark. They're too flush with the rest of the panel, making them kind of hard to find, otherwise.

As for the chargers inability to set each channel, for independent charge rates ,etc. I have plenty of other chargers (My VP2s and SC4s) that will do that, so it's still not really a deal breaker, for me. The same holds true for a charger that can charge LiFePO4 and 4.3 volt batteries.


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