# A small 123/LS light (Long/pics)



## tvodrd (Apr 12, 2003)

My Director of 14 years at work announced he is retiring. I suggested to my machinist that we could make him a unique retirement gift- a custom, hi-tech flashlight /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif in our usual gold and black ano we use for the production equipment we build. Well, word got out and others wanted one too /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif . I sketched-up an about as small as practical 123 LS design, and ordered some 3/4" 7075T6 and alloy 145 copper bar. ($Ouch!$) For the driver electronics, I chose the LEDynamics MicroPuck, primarily, because I had several and the long run time they offer on a 123. (Wayne/dat2zip's boards are a much better formfactor, and would reduce the O.A.L. by about .1" but I had several pucks /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif )







We made the pieces in our "spare" time. The LSs get epoxied to the copper midsection:






For a + battery contact, I made brass pieces which press over the pucks:






The assemblies are a tight fit, and get potted when done. For the neg battery connection, I cut a .010" W. slot with a slitting saw and staked the puck's lead into it. Soldering the leads to the LS was accompanied by a few cussy-darns:






We made a punch to make the lens gaskets from .030" clear silicone rubber sheet, and it is almost invisible. Threads are 11/16-24. DL123s drop in, but SF123s some little pinky assistance, and 2-3 taps dislodge them. The neg bat contact is a #2-56 round head, slotted (bifurcated /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif) mach. screw, located .025" off axis to provide some "wipe" during make:






Some lessons learned. HA is a PITA! The anodize run included both 7075 and 6061 parts. The 7075 guys came out kind of a light gray and the 61 parts had the greenish "OD" cast I prefer. Wierd thing is last night I did an hour and a half run on one to see how hot it was going to get, while holding it and shining it around (heat's no problem- warm not hot) and this morning, that light's ano has turned green! I guess from a combo of heat and skin oils?? I like it! Edit: (Thanks Roth) the optics are NX-05s, turned down to .650" dia, and shortened from the front to .375". Actual front aperature is .575" dia.

Another edit: The crummy pic above doesn't show the glass lens and its gasket very well. The gasket ring drops into the bezel, followed by the lens and then the optic. The bezel O-ring is major squeeze, so no "Loctite" is required.

Larry


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## Ross (Apr 12, 2003)

Larry!!! These are fantastic! Are you selling them??


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## tvodrd (Apr 12, 2003)

Hi Bowser,
I knew somebody was going to ask /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif . I will end up with 2 or 3 but have no plans to sell one at this time. I would be honored to donate one to the CPF for auction,though. (Admins?)

Larry


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## Joel (Apr 12, 2003)

Sweeeeeet! Would love to see some beam shots! What kind of run-time does this baby have? GREAT job!!!!


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## moses (Apr 12, 2003)

Whoo....its official and public now! 

Just awesome. In my mind, there's no question that this is now THE STATE OF ART in single 123 design, regardless of whether it is incandescent or LED. (WOrth nothing that this is not some low powered luxeon mod. It is a full powered 1 watt luxeon with the micropuck.) The amazing thing is that Larry did this whole run in his 'spare time'. I'm just blown away by the teeny size of these things from the first time Larry mentioned them. Imagine - a 123 luxeon in all its glory, smaller than the Infinity. And the material - aluminium, copper, brass...all used to maximize the material's strengths.

I'm sure this thread will get long in a hurry. My thoughts are that Larry should go into manufacturing these beauties. 

WHooooo!!!

Mo

ps: Assuming that this is Larry's first attempt at making a full light. Can anyone imagine what amazing stuff the second attempt will produce?


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## tvodrd (Apr 12, 2003)

Joel,
As to full run time, maybe somebody else has been there/done that with a MicroPuck/123. I *think* its about 3 hours before serious "moon mode" sets in. Beamshot? maybe tonight. I have a BB500 MM I could compare one to.

Moses,
Thanks! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif Now don't you dare spill the beans on the one and two-cell CR2 projects /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif .

Larry


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## ufokillerz (Apr 12, 2003)

holy crap thats ones mean looking light for the size.


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## tsg68 (Apr 12, 2003)

Both "sick" and "slick" at the same time, maybe Larry should look into selling the liscensing to a major player or jobbing it out. I would definitely pay good dinero for a 1x123 LS light this small. Can't wait to see the beam picts! I'm sure CPF members would buy into a venture on a light like this. I know I would.

Later,
TSG /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif


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## spinkid (Apr 12, 2003)

If these ever get made this would be the ultimate hiking light for me. I could hang one off each shoulder strap of my pack. Pleeeease consider making a bunch of these, maybe as a build to order format like the McLux, I am sure you could sell a bunch and the people are very generous in allowing plenty of build time. Great job.


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## shiftd (Apr 12, 2003)

any plan on making more?


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## ChrisA (Apr 12, 2003)

that's sooooo cool ! larry don't tease us with those damn fine pics and then tell us that they won't go into production /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eek.gif 

chris


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## slogan (Apr 12, 2003)

A very handsome light. Well done.


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## Rothrandir (Apr 12, 2003)

wow!

small!

bright!

attractive!

btw, i'm guessing you modified the optics? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif


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## Sigman (Apr 12, 2003)

*"PayPal sent"...*


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## MR Bulk (Apr 12, 2003)

tvodrd,

Yup, like Rick, please allow me to add my own, *"PAYPAL SENT"*!!!

It is the first time I have posted this to a mod thread; I can think of no greater compliment...

I'd really like to have one if you make more!


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## Wolfen (Apr 12, 2003)

SIGN ME UP!


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## Otokoyama (Apr 12, 2003)

Superb!


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## PJD (Apr 12, 2003)

I've been holding back on buying any more luxeon lights (other than the Micro Illuminator that I'm really chomping at the bit to get...), because the new stuff is coming out at such a feverish pace, that I'm afraid that I'm going to spend a bunch of money on some things that I'm just not going to be satisfied with 3 months down the road. But this is just TOO MUCH!!! It has everything I've been looking for in a luxeon light...especially the size factor. That thing is absolutely beautiful! If you ever do decide to make a production run, I'll be on the band-wagon for this one!!!

Let me echo Sigman and Mr. Bulk...PAYPAL SENT!

PJD


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## Icebreak (Apr 12, 2003)

That has got to be one of the sweetest designs and best engineered lights ever. Congratulations on achieving such a high level of excellence.


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## ufokillerz (Apr 12, 2003)

i'd have to say "PAYPAL SENT" as well
This is a very unique custom light, and i'd want one on my keychain =)


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## tvodrd (Apr 12, 2003)

Thank you very much, everybody!!!! 
(And /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/bowdown.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/bowdown.gif MR Bulk, I have come very close to buying one of your creations!)

The design is very straight-forward, and a bunch of these would be a more appropriate job for the Skunk Works, using Wayne's boards. Arc or anyone else is welcome to the design.
(Better flashlights for _all_.)

Larry


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## TripleDouble (Apr 12, 2003)

This is basically the light I've been dreaming about, but could never make. Now please tell me that I won't have to try...


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## John Frederick (Apr 12, 2003)

Beautiful work!! Please find a way to make a run of them!


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## woodbender (Apr 12, 2003)

Excellent work. You will have no trouble selling these if you ever decide to make a run of them, and I'm sure you will be bombarded with requests to make more of them. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/bowdown.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/bowdown.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/bowdown.gif


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## ufokillerz (Apr 12, 2003)

I'd easily spend $100+ on one of these, if you decide to sell them *wink wink*


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## tsg68 (Apr 12, 2003)

Larry, 
I think you've got the hit of 2003 so far and it's not even in production (yet!) you should capitalize on this! I would spend over $100 easily too. Beautiful work man!!!

Later,
TSG /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif


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## Illuminated (Apr 12, 2003)

Simply superb! What beautiful design and craftsmanship. I don't yet own a 123-powered light, but I'd sign up for one of these in a heartbeat.

Excellent job!

John


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## McGizmo (Apr 12, 2003)

Larry,

This light has some very elegant design features! Cool. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

- Don


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## Hikerdude81 (Apr 12, 2003)

I am working on a prototype that has a Collimator and pushbutton switch, and should be even smaller. It should be out in a limited basis in a couple months.
It is (IMHO) a sharp little thing, and should put out 30 lumens and is regulated.
I can post more when I get a better feel for what it will be able to do, and when it will be available.
Please write back if you are interested, I am trying to get a feel for how many to make.


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## shiftd (Apr 12, 2003)

well
a or two or more picture would be nice


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## McGizmo (Apr 12, 2003)

Hikerdude81,

Wow, a prototype and design of the specs you have provided is worthy of its own thread! Perhaps you can start this thread soon as an aid to keeping this thread based on comments and Q's about Larry's creation.

- Don


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## BuddTX (Apr 12, 2003)

I LIKE IT!

NOW, I esp like the black/copper color too!

sign me up!


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## Stainless (Apr 12, 2003)

tvodrd:
Looks NEAT!!!
Please email me if you decide to "sell".
Stainless


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## moses (Apr 12, 2003)

Hey Larry, just want to note that when it comes to 'Paypal Sent', I'm at the FRONT of the line... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif OK, actually, not to be greedy, you sell to whomever you want. 

Larry, as mentioned, this is gonna be one long thread. During idle musings, others have thought about a design similar to this. The difference is that I just dream about it while Larry actually gets this stuff done in his spare time. 


McGizmo, agree with your sentiments about the new thread. (As far I'm concerned, Larry and Don are now two 'top of the class' mod guys... Great work and great guys.)

Again, I'm blown away. 

Mo


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## Bill.H (Apr 13, 2003)

Larry,

Very nice work! That might be the first 123 or LS I'd consider actually carrying in a pocket. Sure you don't want to make a bunch?
Is that a spacer ring and lens I see in the last pic betweeen the collimator and the top ring? Nice touch, especially if it's a good glass lens.

Hikerdude81,
I think there'd be a big market for that, please post some pics in a new thread when you can.


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## Hikerdude81 (Apr 13, 2003)

McGizmo, you are right, this isn't the place to put something like that (I'm still pretty new around here...thanks for being patient with me). I just got excited about the fact that somebody is thinking along the same lines as me.
What Tvodrd has is a very slick little unit, and that's a good idea using the MicroPuck, it keeps the parts count down, and is small.
Keep up the good work!


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## CiTY (Apr 13, 2003)

Nice work. Good engineering design. Worthy of comparision to a McLux. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif


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## PieThatCorner (Apr 13, 2003)

Larry - very impressive... did you give the light away as a retirement gift yet? I'd like to know what the reaction was. Nothing speaks better of a gift than a high quality, hand-made/machined piece of gear that can be used every day.

There are some truly talented individuals on this board!

Good job /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbsup.gif

-Jim


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## Kill-O-Zap (Apr 13, 2003)

FS: LSL-S
WTB: _what do you call this light?_


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## Kill-O-Zap (Apr 13, 2003)

Larry,

This light is a dream come true. The first and only high output LED light that's truly keychain sized. This is a real coup. What came before was either too big for me to want to put on a keychain, or not really high powered. One key to making this possible is the turned down collimator. I'm curious as to what effect that has on the beam; I would expect that there would be SOME loss, or else it would have been smaller in the first place, right /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif. Could you post beam shots with the stock collimator and your customized one side by side?

Besides the size, I also like the size of the head in comparison to the body, it should be easier to operate than the Arc twistie, or the Infinity. Perfect. 

Finally, I think your attitude and spirit in freely offering the design to the community is inspiring. BUT, I hope that does not mean you won't be making a big batch of these to sell...

--Sal


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## flownosaj (Apr 13, 2003)

WOW!! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/bowdown.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/bowdown.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/bowdown.gif

-Jason


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## tvodrd (Apr 13, 2003)

Thank you again, everybody,

I had no idea this post was going to create this much stir! The engraved black and gold one will be presented at the official party at the end of the month /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif. He's an Engineer and will appreciate it. Burn time does appear to be a good 3 hours- the Puck _only_ drives the LS @ 350mA. The beam seems to be identical to that of my BB400 MiniMag- hotspot and side spill- I should have got a pic /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif . Here's another:







I do not plan to make any more of this design, and these are spoken for. (The offer still holds for one for the CPF to auction to help with bandwidth.) The Skunk Works including Wayne/dat2zip would be the ticket to getting them produced in quantity. There's a lot of running around. 1. Find a Brown and Sharp screw machine house to do the parts. 2. A good anodizer. 3. A general shop to cut down the optics- they require hand polishing. 4. A bunch of assembly time. Also there's the matter of getting prime LSs /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif . Wayne's BadBoy and MadMax electronics are a much better formfactor for this design, and could reduce the OAL by 1/8".
Edit: I have edited the bottom of the 1st post twice for clarifications. 

Thanks again for the many compliments!

Larry


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## Mrd 74 (Apr 13, 2003)

Fantastic work,we can only hope the Arc LS4 will be that size.


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## [email protected] (Apr 13, 2003)

*Cool light Larry!*





Manufacturers wanted... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/bowdown.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/buttrock.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/help.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif


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## shiftd (Apr 13, 2003)

just feel sad you don't make many of them /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif


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## hotfoot (Apr 13, 2003)

I'd like to simply say that's a very neat job there! No, wait - make that an *excellent* job! Its sorta what I wish the original Arc-LS could've been...


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## Rothrandir (Apr 13, 2003)

btw...what's up with that e2e in the fourth picture first post? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif


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## StoneDog (Apr 13, 2003)

Holy Cow, those are awesome! 

It looks like it will be very water tight. If Arc is getting around $100 for their LS models, someone could do the same or better with these I'd think (not bashing Arc at all). 

I really like the form factor with the turned down optics, the whole thing is actually shorter than the Infinity!!!

Please, someone make these!!!

Jon


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## Sigman (Apr 13, 2003)

With all due respect, I totally believe that those who have the abilities and resources to make a torch like this should get compensated (with a reasonable profit) for their time, skill, and materials.

However, can't we eventually get a quality torch for a more affordable price...I see several members "pumping up the price", before we even know if it's going to be a "possibility" of obtaining one. I can only hope that the designers, modders, manufacturers, and retailers try to keep things within reach and not let "greed" overtake their desire to produce a quality instrument for a respectable price.

Naww...I think you could get at least $325 for it...pump it up...money is no object here!!

I guess I'm getting overwhelmed with new torches appearing, and we know there are going to be more and more...I must say this though - *<font color="blue">"This one appears WORTHY!!"</font>*

Please accept my second *<font color="blue">"PayPal Sent"...</font>*

(I've got to add...this sure looks like it has "Government Contract" potential written all over it!)


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## tvodrd (Apr 13, 2003)

Sigman,
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/bowdown.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/bowdown.gif Your Modship, I would be honored to donate one to the CPF to auction to help with bandwidth, etc. costs. They have earned it for the enjoyment these forums have provided me! Would you approach Admin on the subject? I would be happy to send it to The LED Museam/Craig for an independent review first. (Signature required /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif )

Larry


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## Sigman (Apr 13, 2003)

WOW...I'm actually afraid there are going to be fights over this! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif...If the Admins don't see this (come on they read everything!!)...I'll 'forward' your post immediately though!! With the advertising support now, I'm not current as to the "needs" of the CPF, but of course there are those "in the know". I don't know what they will do with your offer, but I have to say that it's a respectable offer and thank you!! 

BTW, quit that "modship" stuff, there are others far more qualified!! and another: /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif


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## Greta (Apr 13, 2003)

[ QUOTE ]
*tvodrd said:*
Sigman,
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/bowdown.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/bowdown.gif Your Modship, I would be honored to donate one to the CPF to auction to help with bandwidth, etc. costs. They have earned it for the enjoyment these forums have provided me! Would you approach Admin on the subject? I would be happy to send it to The LED Museam/Craig for an independent review first. (Signature required /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif )

Larry 

[/ QUOTE ]

Larry... David is offline for a couple days. Hopefully will be back tomorrow. I'll point him in this direction. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbsup.gif By the by... *VERY* neat little light! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbsup.gif


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## tvodrd (Apr 13, 2003)

Sasha,

Thanks! 

Larry


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## Icebreak (Apr 13, 2003)

I am just a happy observer of what goes on here. If I may offer some humble assitance with the phraseology, I think that rather than, "your modship" it should possibly be "your Modesty". That's just my experience.

The "Modship" I believe, is where they live, late at night, while we humans are asleep and dreaming of great flashlights. 

Please remember to be aware that they can be identified by their lack of fingerprints. Note that in tvodrd's pics his fingertips are conveniently cropped out of the photos.


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## Rothrandir (Apr 13, 2003)

i think larry was talking about him being a *mod*erator...not a *mod*ifier /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

so technically speaking, he termage was correct /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif


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## N162E (Apr 13, 2003)

Hi Larry,

To say beautiful job seems really inadequate. Pretty amazing what a little imagination, a lot of talent and a little ingunuity can turn out.

I do have a question though. In your pictures one of the copper centerpieces is shown with the Luxeon mounted. Around the Luxeon there appears to be some sort of insert which I am supposing is there to support the optic. If I am seeing this correctly, what is the insert made of? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif


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## ufokillerz (Apr 13, 2003)

just setup a ebay auction and have them direct payment to CPF =), makes it easier since its actual bidding.


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## tvodrd (Apr 13, 2003)

Hey Roth-

;D All it took was some drill bits, a boring bar, a tap, a die, and a knurling tool. You have the rest /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif . Whoops- I forgot the milling machine for the lanyard attachment details- fakeable with a hacksaw and file. (And I see you are learning quickly!)

Larry


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## Icebreak (Apr 13, 2003)

Thanks, Roth.

Yes, sir. This terminology must be correct.

I've been talking to Sigman like a regular bud for a while now. I never noticed he was a Moderator but, it makes sense.

And now back to the story:


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## Rothrandir (Apr 13, 2003)

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/yellowlaugh.gif

i have some indexable cutting tools...and...err...um....oh yea, sandpaper!

i really need to get a 60degree threading guage and some 5/16" tool blanks.

and a knurler...and a boring bar...and some taps, and dies...

oh yea...i have a couple drill bits too! they are for wood, but work alright...


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## tvodrd (Apr 13, 2003)

N162E,

If I understand your question, there is no insert. Screwing the bezel down loads the lens gasket against the lens against the optic against the LS itself. The copper doesn't touch the optic, and was polished to help bounce a few more photons out the front. There are 5 machined parts: the bezel, the optic, the copper center section, the + bat contact, and the bat case.

Larry


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## tvodrd (Apr 13, 2003)

[ QUOTE ]
*Rothrandir said:*
btw...what's up with that e2e in the fourth picture first post? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif 

[/ QUOTE ] The pics are back up for that post- about page 9 of this forum /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif . (The pieces finally got anodized along with these lights)(Aint sure how to link it.)

Larry


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## Josh (Apr 14, 2003)

Killer job!!! I want one!!!


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## BuddTX (Apr 14, 2003)

Larry, again, very nice light.

I respect your decision to not mass produce these, if you feel you could not commit the time and effort to produce several hundred of these. The only thing worse than NOT having one of these, would be getting an inferior product, or waiting many months after the "promised" date.

Sad decision, but a wise one. 

NOW, maybe you could get with skunkworks, or Peter at ARC or the person who made the UBHII, or Electrolumens, or someone to make them.

Also, Like Sigman said, lets keep the price reasonable! I have purchased several 120 $ lights, but I still saw the value in them, and have purchased several mod's from CPF members, but I have always precieved a value in the light that I purchased.

Also, Like Sigman said, you should be compensated for your time and efforts.


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## d'mo (Apr 14, 2003)

Wow! That's a work of art! I'd be in for one too if they were being sold.


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## Ben H (Apr 14, 2003)

Larry,

You have created a fantastic flashlight! I love the black and gold color scheme. I sure hope somebody will start making this awesome light! Based on the response so far, demand for this light doesn't seem to be an issue. This is exactly the type of light I don't have, but want very badly.......small, bright, regulated, and waterproof. If someone builds it, we will buy it. Please! Somebody build this flashlight!

Awesome job Larry!


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## BuddTX (Apr 14, 2003)

Have we seen Beam Shots yet, compared to a "normal" 1 watt LS?


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## Trent (Apr 14, 2003)

The perfect pocket light and you can't get it.
CMG,ARC,SureFire,etc. take notice.
Just think mag could come out with this and blow everyone away. That would be embarassing.
JM2CW


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## LEDmodMan (Apr 14, 2003)

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eek.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eek.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eek.gif
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/bowdown.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/bowdown.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/bowdown.gif

Larry,
This is sweet... I would love to see these made, but I understand why you can't (I am in the same boat with my 12 AA battery holder, but I really want to make them). Very nice work!!! So, you made what, 7 of these in total? It's times like this when I wish I still worked for a small private machine shop that would be willing to build a product like this in small volume. Awesome!!! Wonderful idea for a retiring engineer. You should show him this thread after you give him his TROPHY, and I'm sure he'll realize exactly what he has in his hands. He will really appreciate it! Great job!

This leads me to wonder... What if some CPFers got together and took out some small business loans...? There are some seriously talented folks here, if all these resources could be pooled and put into a company, I could easily see it dominating the lighting world. :daydreaming:

I can see it now...
HEADLINE: CPF Usergroup, LLC., the industry leader in revolutionary personal lighting products, purchased [email protected] Instruments today to help further it's goal to provide high-tech, high-power, low cost flashlights to the world. The company plans to re-open [email protected]'s long defunct R&D department, which has not seen use since... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif


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## brightnorm (Apr 14, 2003)

Larry,

I've never said this before, but I almost wish that I had never seen this thread /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

The frustration of seeing something so perfect, getting hopes up followed by subsequent disappointment is cruel indeed!

Congratulations on a truly unique accomplishment.

Brightnorm


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## MR Bulk (Apr 14, 2003)

One question I just thought of -- the activation method is twist-on, correct?


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## BuddTX (Apr 14, 2003)

Beam shots - 

In looking at the assembly picture at the top, I see what appears to be a NX-05 Optics, so we should have the standard Luxeon 1 watt beam. 

This thing is looking better and better!


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## tvodrd (Apr 14, 2003)

MR Bulk-
Yes, it is simple twist on.

Beam shots- I took a couple pics. Interestingly, I don't a difference just holding my MiniMag AA w/BB400 and the little lights in either appearant brightness or beam appearance, other than the MM aint centered real well. I have 2 flavors of the "Luxeon Lottery"- bluish and greenish, the latter being more of a soft white. I have no doubts they are all Q's. The camera can't be lying- the little lights (with their cut-down optics) have a wider beam. Pics are from 5' against a (dirty) off-white wall:












Larry


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## jdriller (Apr 14, 2003)

A true work of flashlight art.


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## flash.... (Apr 14, 2003)

Larry...
That is one awesome light! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
Please reconsider doing a batch of these, I'm sure you would sell out before you finished production.
Count on my purchase (or three) /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif


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## Tomas (Apr 14, 2003)

Hi, Larry.

Your light is what I'd always wished my Arc LS was. Your design is simple and straightforward, and responds to some of the potential problems in simple ways (for example the off-center negative contact for contact cleaning).

Very elegant. 

Being an engineer myself, I especially admire the completeness of the thought that went into the design. You have managed to make a light that others, professionals in the design and manufacture of flashlights, have strived for and missed. 

I do hope someone picks up this design and manages to bring it to at least limited production. (And you, as the originator of this elegant design, should at get a small royalty from every one sold!) 

Even if this light is never produced for sale, you have shown others that it CAN be done, and done right.

Thank you.


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## tvodrd (Apr 14, 2003)

Thanks again, everybody! (Esp fellow engineer Tomas!)

The design is totally straight-forward. The aluminum wall thickness is a uniform .050," not counting the threads which are 11/16-24 NEF, where the "wall" drops to ,025" or so. It's kind of a scaled-up Arc AAA, and a lot easier to turn on/off with one hand. Hopefully, someone (Peter!) will take the design and run with it! Ethics prohibit my doing a production-run from the shop at work! I do not have the time to chase having a bunch of parts made from outside vendors. (My employer throws me onto the street, could be a different story /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif .)

(Picture that sucker CR2-based, and overdriven!- I'm back on that project, which I started before this one /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif .)

Larry


----------



## Kill-O-Zap (Apr 14, 2003)

Larry, I'm so happy to hear you say CR2!!! It's about time someone explored this possibility. But overdriven??? 

Edit:
Oh, do you mean 2xCR2's? I'd love to see a 1xCR2 light, probably somewhat underdriven since 1) there's not a lot of juice in these batteries, 2) you can't get them for $1.50 like the 123's, and 3) there's not going to be much metal to sink the heat in a 1xCR2 keychain light...


----------



## Rothrandir (Apr 15, 2003)

[ QUOTE ]
*tvodrd said:*
...(My employer throws me onto the street, could be a different story /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif .)...

[/ QUOTE ]

larry, do you have your employers email address?

sounds like some emails complaining about your horrible work attitude and your drug abuse, and your terrorist ties, and your drug smuggling, and your vandalism, and your murders, and your (_insert offenses here_) are in order /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif


----------



## moses (Apr 15, 2003)

Rothrandir, that is very funny...I got a good chuckle.

Mo


----------



## Rothrandir (Apr 15, 2003)

you think i'm kidding? do i look like i'm kidding? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/twak.gif


----------



## Nerd (Apr 15, 2003)

Yeah Roth, I think you're kidding.


----------



## DSpeck (Apr 15, 2003)

Tvodred, if you can find a source for the cut-down optics, I am willing to see if I can get some of the machining done locally...Email me, please. The rest of the unit seems pretty straight-forward, but I would definitely like to explore the concept of using dat2zip's Badboy or Madmax sandwiches to reduce the OA length of the light. The only thing stopping me from already having made somthing like this is the optics problem. I was waiting until somebody came out with a small-diameter, regular-production lens that would produce a good beam. Your cut-down standard optics seems like a good solution for the moment.


----------



## W4DIZ (Apr 15, 2003)

Nice job Larry,
It would be nice to see these lights made.


----------



## StoneDog (Apr 15, 2003)

I'm curious about the threads on the head vs battery tube. Would it be possible accidentally unscrew the head instead of the body when turning the light off?

Also, does the 123 (non-SF that is) rattle at all when the light is off?

Jon


----------



## Rothrandir (Apr 15, 2003)

nerd... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/twak.gif

ok, i'll admit it...i was _half_ kidding...


----------



## tvodrd (Apr 15, 2003)

Kill-O-Zap,

You have identified the CR2 issues! The CR2 does seem to provide enough current for a BB500, just not for too awful long. It will definately be intermittant duty due to heat.

Roth, You forget I have an "enforcer" in your neighborhood /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif .

DSpeck- I will PM you when I get a chance /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif .

StoneDog- The interferance/squeeze of the bezel O-ring is much greater than for the bat case. Rattle- yeah, a little axially. Foam ring would fix, but I prefer knowing how far _off_ it is /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif.

Larry


----------



## Rothrandir (Apr 15, 2003)

[ QUOTE ]
*tvodrd said:*
...Roth, You forget I have an "enforcer" in your neighborhood /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif ...

[/ QUOTE ]

*oh yea?!?!?!* well, i have a...err...um...
you know i didn't really mean all that right? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif


----------



## Ben H (Apr 16, 2003)

So what industrious flashaholic with contacts in the machining world is going to make this light for us?


----------



## DSpeck (Apr 16, 2003)

It's under discussion, even as we speak... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif


----------



## Ben H (Apr 16, 2003)

DSpeck,

It's great to hear that this great light isn't going to slip through the cracks.

Maybe offering it as a kit with a nice bright white LS would simplify the work/time required to get this to the masses.


----------



## BuddTX (Apr 16, 2003)

I hope this light can be made.

Also, I would either pay a LITTLE more, or wait a LITTLE longer, for a highly rated Luxeon Star to go into this.

Maybe we could get some CPF help JUST to source some high quality Luxeon's?


----------



## tvodrd (Apr 16, 2003)

_FUD_ for thought: The existing physical envelope can accomodate one of Wayne/dat2zip's drop-in modules for the MiniM.. (Going the board route only shortens things by about .1") It would allow changing colors/power by just swapping modules. (FUD= Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif )

Larry


----------



## FalconFX (Apr 16, 2003)

Looks like this thing has rockets under its cleats. It's taking off...


----------



## paulr (Apr 16, 2003)

I like that drop-in module idea. 0.1" difference in length doesn't matter much one way or the other. What's great about this light is its small diameter compared to the Arc LS. I think someone did locate a source of cheap CR2's, so the CR2 idea should be kept open as well.


----------



## Trent (Apr 16, 2003)

I don't have the flashlight building smarts that you guys have. But im willing to prepay to help get this project rolling.
Trent


----------



## StoneDog (Apr 16, 2003)

hmmm, tvodrd has a point. Assuming it wouldn't affect the OAL of the threaded copper slug, it *could* be hollowed out to accept something from the Sandwich Shoppe. Might make the copper piece easier to manufacture too. I could use my existing BB500 and only order the body w/ optics. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/buttrock.gif

It would heat up pretty fast - not really an extended use light - but that would be an impressive little light. 

Jon


----------



## DSpeck (Apr 16, 2003)

This would be the general idea for the light: we're talking about offering the parts kit, anodized and all. Basically, you'd just drop in one of the MadMax or BadBoy modules and away you'd go. That way, we don't have any delays for finding the brightest Luxeons, and you would have the option to change the module if you got a brighter sandwich, an adjustable one, a different colour, etc. The only thing slowing this down is the optics. I really don't want to cut down and polish 100 of these things... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon6.gif Anyone have a source for smaller optics?


----------



## BuddTX (Apr 16, 2003)

Are we just talking about sanding or filing down the optics, and then polishing the end?

I don't have any great machine shop, but I would do one by hand myself. 

If an hours worth of sanding and filing and polishing was the only thing keeping me from this light, I will go and buy a file and some sandpaper now!


----------



## Ben H (Apr 16, 2003)

I'm with BuddTX. He must want one as much as I do! I've spent hours making heatsinks by hand. Hand-tweaking one or two optics wouldn't keep me from buying a kit. I think I need to work on the virtue of patience.

DSpeck, I like the kit idea.


----------



## tvodrd (Apr 16, 2003)

The optic's O.D. has to be reduced to ~.655". They were then shortened (from the front) to .375" long. (I know a "hungry" shop that this would be perfect for. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif ) A screw machine house ("Brown & Sharp") might be a lower cost alternative to a CNC house for the 3 machined components?? 

Larry


----------



## treek13 (Apr 16, 2003)

[ QUOTE ]
*DSpeck said:*
This would be the general idea for the light: we're talking about offering the parts kit, anodized and all. Basically, you'd just drop in one of the MadMax or BadBoy modules and away you'd go. 

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
*tvodrd said:*
The optic's O.D. has to be reduced to ~.655". They were then shortened (from the front) to .375" long. (I know a "hungry" shop that this would be perfect for. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif ) 

[/ QUOTE ]

The combo of this body with already reduced optics to be used as a host for a MadMax or BadBoy module would be a huge hit. 

Pat


----------



## Gransee (Apr 16, 2003)

[ QUOTE ]
*tvodrd said:*
Thanks again, everybody! (Esp fellow engineer Tomas!)

The design is totally straight-forward. The aluminum wall thickness is a uniform .050," not counting the threads which are 11/16-24 NEF, where the "wall" drops to ,025" or so. It's kind of a scaled-up Arc AAA, and a lot easier to turn on/off with one hand. Hopefully, someone (Peter!) will take the design and run with it! Ethics prohibit my doing a production-run from the shop at work! I do not have the time to chase having a bunch of parts made from outside vendors. (My employer throws me onto the street, could be a different story /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif .)


[/ QUOTE ]

I don't normally read this thread but I saw your bat signal. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

First, let me say that I am truly impressed with your design. Making the LS smaller is a passion of my heart. Could you please give me a call at (480) 752-8554 x202?

Traditionally, the challenge to making the LS smaller has been mostly with the optics. Smaller optics tend to not focus as well or as efficiently.

Peter Gransee


----------



## BuddTX (Apr 16, 2003)

[ QUOTE ]
*tvodrd said:*
The optic's O.D. has to be reduced to ~.655". They were then shortened (from the front) to .375" long. (I know a "hungry" shop that this would be perfect for. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif ) A screw machine house ("Brown & Sharp") might be a lower cost alternative to a CNC house for the 3 machined components?? 

Larry 

[/ QUOTE ]

It sounds like it is more than just filing off the outer diameter, and we all know that the optics are important.


----------



## Ben H (Apr 16, 2003)

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ooo.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/popcorn.gif Peter is getting in the game! I started a thread in Elecktrolumen's page about Elecktrolumens having the largest and smallest LS flashlights. Can't wait to see how this story ends!

I love the concept of the upcoming ARC LS4, and I love the concept of a smaller, no-frills, simple, LS flashlight. A price around $100 would be cool too. The question is who will make the MiniLS and when can we buy it?


----------



## paulr (Apr 16, 2003)

One concern--does this battery tube have unusually thin walls? I'm wondering how else the OD could be so small. Any concern about crushing it if you sit on it with keys in your pocket?


----------



## StoneDog (Apr 16, 2003)

Not counting the diameter of the optics (which is being reduced in this case) the battery seems to determine the width of the unit as a whole. Given that CR2's are on average 16mm vs the 123's 24mm, this light could in theory be made even thinner (and shorter)!

This is sick... Even if you don't go the CR2 route, suppose a HD is used without optics. Instead of optics a relatively simple reflector is machined into the copper (or even better Al and then polished!!!) slug where the reflector walls are long enough to press the lens and o-ring into place. You'd get more efficient transmission of light w/o the optics AND you'd save the cost/hassle of turning down NX-05s.

OK, combine the two ideas with an Amber or Red-Orange being driven directly and you save even more space by leaving out the converter... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/naughty.gif

I wish I had a mini-lathe (and some training).

Jon


----------



## Tomas (Apr 16, 2003)

OK, I'm starting to get excited now. It is looking like this light might actually reach limited production. 

The Sandwich Shop drop-in sounds like an excellent design change for a "kit" version, assuming that adequate heat sinking can be figured out without making the design overly complex or fragile. (My absolute best LS light happens to be BB400 based.)

If heatsinking is a problem with the drop-in design, I'd rather see the existing reg used, as I don't want a light that is "short bursts only" but a genuine serious use light.

Optics question: If a "perfect" mini-optic for this design can be hand made from an NX-05, could copies of it be _cast,_ using it as a core for the mold, less expensively than machining/fitting/polishing a hundred? Just a thought.

Imagine: A solid-state, high brightness, rugged, water-resistant, general purpose light the length of an Arc AAA and the diameter of a CMG Infinity.

I want one.


----------



## ufokillerz (Apr 16, 2003)

[ QUOTE ]
*Tomas said:*
Optics question: If a "perfect" mini-optic for this design can be hand made from an NX-05, could copies of it be _cast,_ using it as a core for the mold, less expensively than machining/fitting/polishing a hundred? Just a thought.





[/ QUOTE ]

That would leave a tab in the smaller optics? If the Stock nx-05 is turned down, the tab is turned down with it, but if you injection mold the small optic, you'll have a tab and less efficiency?


----------



## Fusion (Apr 16, 2003)

Why not a SE LS with a reflector?? Won't that work minus the size of current optics??


----------



## LEDmodMan (Apr 16, 2003)

This is getting interesting... 

Now, where did I stash that $120 bucks I was saving...?

:goes to dig for money:


----------



## ufokillerz (Apr 16, 2003)

[ QUOTE ]
*Fusion said:*
Why not a SE LS with a reflector?? Won't that work minus the size of current optics?? 

[/ QUOTE ]

if he used s SE in such a small body with a reflector, you'll just have a lot of wasted light because the reflector won't make much use of it.... my 2 cents


----------



## John Frederick (Apr 16, 2003)

Whoa! This isn't an auction /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif If this light ever sees production our offers will have driven the price up to $300 /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif
Seriously, I hope if a kit is offered it will be quite a bit less than $100. My kids can't eat or wear a flashlight.


----------



## LEDmodMan (Apr 16, 2003)

I was hoping that my $120 would get me TWO of these! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif


----------



## shiftd (Apr 16, 2003)

i thought you are planning to get LS4? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/yellowlaugh.gif


----------



## belyo (Apr 16, 2003)

I look forward to development in the future... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbsup.gif


----------



## V8TOYTRUCK (Apr 16, 2003)

So whats the name of this light?


----------



## logicnerd411 (Apr 16, 2003)

Oh, no, another WIN A FREE FLASHLIGHT CONTEST IF YOU NAME THE DAMN THING. 

Dan


----------



## FalconFX (Apr 16, 2003)

Does anyone else see this as another McLux type rush to the finish line? This time, people are gonna get crammed to the hilt...


----------



## tvodrd (Apr 16, 2003)

[ QUOTE ]
*FalconFX said:*
Does anyone else see this as another McLux type rush to the finish line? This time, people are gonna get crammed to the hilt... 

[/ QUOTE ]

Not if I get anything to say about it!

Larry


----------



## tylerdurden (Apr 16, 2003)

Sign me up. Even without optics, this would be an impressive little light. Could you machine a smaller McFlood-type reflector to drop in with the sandwich?


----------



## paulr (Apr 16, 2003)

I guess the OD is ok. I see the Surefire E1/E2 is smaller in OD than the LS. In fact I don't see why Arc made the LS so thick. On a slightly different note, I'm actually not in too much of a hurry to see these produced, and I hope tvodrd's retiring director gets his light pretty soon, so at least for a while, he'll have a unique item. I want one for myself too, but I don't mind waiting for a while. Higher flux Luxeons will be more plentiful in a few months anyway ;-).


----------



## tvodrd (Apr 16, 2003)

By the way folks,

There is a design/tolerancing issue with adapting this thing to a "sandwich" from Wayne/dat2zip: The heatsinking requires the emitter board of the "sandwich" bear against the inside of the copper center section like it does against the shoulder at the front of a MiniM.. tube. This means that the optic cannot be loaded against the LS as it is in the current design! The optic will have to be mechanically located in the front under the lens and bezel, with some tolerance for the height of the LS under its dome. The optics work best when they are all the way down, and against the LS. Curiouser and curiuoser, the more I look into what would otherwise be a pretty cool design (If I say so myself /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif )

Larry


----------



## tvodrd (Apr 16, 2003)

BTW,

There is a fairly easy solution- Have the "builder" file as required, the bottom of the optic so it *just* doesn't touch when the "sandwich" is fully forward against the 'sink. Somebody, I forget who, did some experiments with moving the emitter forward within an NX-05. I don't recall the results.

Larry


----------



## StoneDog (Apr 17, 2003)

I still say lose the optics altogether. I don't remember what percentage of the light you lose when using the acrylic optics but I think it's between 5% and 10%(??). The Cu or Al slug would be a bit more difficult to machine I guess, but just put a lip inside the slug to mimic a [email protected] and then another lip beyond that with a ID just a bit wider than a HD emitter's lens. Then, come in from the other side of the slug and machine in a reflector down to 1/32 of this lip so that just the lens is poking through the small lip.

OK, I'm not an engineer - I admit it /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif - please forgive me... But dern this is fun.

Jon


----------



## LEDmodMan (Apr 17, 2003)

[ QUOTE ]
*LEDmodMan said:*
This is getting interesting... 

Now, where did I stash that $120 bucks I was saving...?

:goes to dig for money: 

[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
*LEDmodMan said:*
I was hoping that my $120 would get me TWO of these! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif 

[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
*shiftd said:*
i thought you are planning to get LS4? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/yellowlaugh.gif 

[/ QUOTE ]

That money is in a different coffee can... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbsup.gif


----------



## Tomas (Apr 17, 2003)

*Re: THE small 123/LS light (Long/pics)*

Heheheheh ...

Is anyone else amused by the praise heaped upon this brilliant design, people asking, no, pleading, to get one, then when that just might become a possibility asking that everything except the outside be changed?

My vote: The original design is what got us all excited - we liked it and it works - *don't make any changes in the first run if it goes into limited production.*

Yes, there can be changes in fabrication, of course (a cast optic, for example, or a different lens or front gasket, or a slight change in machining or finish), if it makes manufacture/assembly easier or less costly, but what I want to see (and hold in my hand as my own) is a light based on the original design, not some fourth generation hybrid that only shares the same battery ... 

It seems that each and every suggestion for a change is taking away some of what made the original design brilliant: Simplicity based on the function of each part.

For example, the LS needs to be heat sinked, so directly attach it to a solid heat sink and go from there. As much as I truly like the Sandwich Shop drop-ins (in my opinion the best designs on the market), they complicate the straightforward heat path of the original design, and make the resulting product a _different_ light.

The turned-down optic functions to form the beam, provide a good seal at the front of the head, and ensure good contact of the LS with it's heat sink. Dropping the optic changes every one of those functions.

Please, folks, the original design is well thought out and its form is based on function. That original design is what excited us because we could see it's excellence. It was a well though out complete engineering job. Any change to any tiny bit of it forces a re-examination of the entire design, and is NOT as simple as it might seem. The design is a unified whole.

Change is good, but the first run should be *THIS* light.

I'll shut up now. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif


----------



## Trent (Apr 17, 2003)

*Re: THE small 123/LS light (Long/pics)*

Tomas, I agree,now where and when can I buy one?


----------



## Wolfen (Apr 17, 2003)

*Re: THE small 123/LS light (Long/pics)*

Tomas, I couldn't agree more. The orginal design is very intriguing and appealing.


----------



## Illuminated (Apr 17, 2003)

*Re: THE small 123/LS light (Long/pics)*

If it aint broke - don't fix it!

My 2c - John


----------



## tvodrd (Apr 17, 2003)

Thanks again everybody,

Stuffing micropucks in these things was a PITA, though the output/runtime/heat may be more favorable (to some) to, say, a Badboy. I've had a chance to look (a little) at a design for a "kit" to use Wayne/dat2zip's drop-in modules, and surprisingly, it would reduce the O.A.L. from 2.80" to 2.60!" (What's a few thou between friends? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif ) A custom, "short stack" "sandwich" knocks-off another .10 to give 2 1/2" long, including lanyard attach! (But that's another story.) Hopefully, I'll get some time on the board (literally- my SolidWorks died with my hdd) this weekend to reallocate the axial real estate. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Larry


----------



## Y2Kirk1028 (Apr 17, 2003)

2 1/2" long?!! wow, thats how long the arc AAA is.

I agree with Tomas that keeping the orginal design will make this light unique and appealing. If it ever makes is to production, I may suggest to use Al instead of Cu for the midsection, for two 2 reasons: (1) reduce cost (2) Copper tends to tarnish easily, especially when it's exposed like that. Shiny aluminum looks better than brown copper. Just my 2¢...


----------



## StoneDog (Apr 17, 2003)

Yeah, you guys are right. Since I pushed the reflector idea I'm obviously one of the ones to blame here. I need to spend more time at work actually working and less time being an armchair engineer in these blasted forums. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Jon


----------



## N162E (Apr 19, 2003)

[ QUOTE ]
*tvodrd said:*
N162E,

If I understand your question, there is no insert. Screwing the bezel down loads the lens gasket against the lens against the optic against the LS itself. The copper doesn't touch the optic, and was polished to help bounce a few more photons out the front. There are 5 machined parts: the bezel, the optic, the copper center section, the + bat contact, and the bat case.

Larry 



[/ QUOTE ]

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/help.gifHi Larry,

At risk of repeating myself I am going to rephrase an earlier question. In the pictures with your first post there is a picture of three center (Copper) pieces. One of the center pieces has the Luxeon emitter installed. I am not real clear from the picture how the emitter is sitting in the slug. Is it sitting down in a secondary step? Are the ends of the center section different from each other? At first I thought there might have been a collar pressed in around it, you earlier stated this was not the case. What confuses me is the perfect circle around the emitter that appears to be a slightly different color. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

I may have the ability to have a few of these made so I am trying to be real clear on what that picture is showing. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif 

This is the picture I find confusing,




....I am confused by the piece above HERE^


----------



## Icebreak (Apr 19, 2003)

*Re: THE small 123/LS light (Long/pics)*

[ QUOTE ]
*Tomas said:*

Please, folks, the original design is well thought out and its form is based on function. That original design is what excited us because we could see it's excellence. It was a well though out complete engineering job. Any change to any tiny bit of it forces a re-examination of the entire design, and is NOT as simple as it might seem. The design is a unified whole.

Change is good, but the first run should be *THIS* light.


[/ QUOTE ]
I agree. Certainly there is room for change on subsequent runs. Also, though a kit is fine idea for some folks, I prefer a complete light that proves the harmony between design elements, power components and photon management. "The design is a unified whole"


----------



## tvodrd (Apr 19, 2003)

N162E,

I should have included a view of the LS-end of the slug. It consists of a 7/16" counterbore about .35" deep, followed by a 5/16 c-bore about .010 deep to center the LS. Then We bored a 58deg "cone" to clear the sides of the optic. I polished the conical section, and the "slightly different color" is a reflection of the LS. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Larry


----------



## N162E (Apr 19, 2003)

*Re: THE small 123/LS light (Long/pics)*

[ QUOTE ]
*tvodrd said:*
N162E,

I should have included a view of the LS-end of the slug. It consists of a 7/16" counterbore about .35" deep, followed by a 5/16 c-bore about .010 deep to center the LS. Then We bored a 58deg "cone" to clear the sides of the optic. I polished the conical section, and the "slightly different color" is a reflection of the LS. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Larry 

[/ QUOTE ]

Thank You Larry,

Makes a lot more sense now!! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif


----------



## paulr (Apr 19, 2003)

*Re: THE small 123/LS light (Long/pics)*

I worried about the practicality of turning the NX05's down in any quantity on a lathe (it sounds like that's what you had done). But take a look at Bucken's "Pocket Penny" (a much less sophisticated design than yours, but I like it a lot in its own way because it can be built with simple tools). He simply sanded down his NX05 on a Dremel belt sander using a wooden dowel to hold the NX05. It looks like that could be done pretty quickly. 


Pocket Penny:
http://www.candlepowerforums.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=UBB14&Number=221283&page=0&view=&sb=5&o=&fpart=1&vc= 

Both these lights convince me that keeping the head end the same size as the (minimal) 123 or CR2 tube is the way to go. The Arc LS and SF KL1 both seem oversized to me now.

I gotta say again, nice work!


----------



## shankus (Apr 19, 2003)

*Re: THE small 123/LS light (Long/pics)*

I particularly like the offset, angled rib for the lanyard hole. Sexy. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/buttrock.gif


----------



## tvodrd (Apr 19, 2003)

[ QUOTE ]
*shankus said:*
I particularly like the offset, angled rib for the lanyard hole. Sexy. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/buttrock.gif 

[/ QUOTE ] 

shankus,

Thank you very much! It was an added PITA to machine, but well worth it. I even considered (replaceable) bushing them with a stainless steel insert. 

Larry


----------



## moses (Apr 21, 2003)

This is an informal/nonpro review of Larry's flashlight. I've been waiting to do a beam comparison but simply have not found the time. So, in the interest of timeliness (I'm already late), here's a personal review from a non-pro. I'll try to add the beam shots later. 











Photos from left to right: Current general ARC LS, Larry's Light complete with the non-lanyard body, Previous generation ARC LS, Larry's lanyard body only without the head.

Random Thoughts, comparing with the ARC which I had EDC:

1. I assume that the first question many will ask is 'HOW IN THE WORLD DID YOU GET ONE???'. I did not beg, borrow, buy, or even ask for one from Larry. We've never met nor have I done Larry any special favors. I mentioned some months back to Larry that my ideal sized 123 light would be .75" diameter and he sent me his schematic which blew me away. Of course, I didn't think he'll actually build one. I had done a mock up in terms of size by cutting one from a .75" wood dowel. Well, Larry did build this light and he sent me not only the light, but two bodies because I had mentioned that I often do not need a Lanyard. So bottom line, I got this light for FREE simply because of Larry's generosity. This, I believe, is the definition of 'Grace' - getting what I do not deserve. Thanks Larry - not sure how to thank you properly. 

2. The light is now my EDC. GREAT light. There is simply ZERO play in the threads - everything works like a vault. Very snug (probably won't turn on accidentally) and yet easily turned on with one hand. Bottom line - the light FEELS GREAT in the hand. Yes, significantly smaller than the ARC LS as you see in the photo. (Incidentally, Peter Gransee makes a top flight light too as thousands of you can attest with the ARC LS.)

2. Quality - The workmanship is first rate as you can see from the photos. The knurling is perfect for me - much grippier than my other lights but not at all abrasive. Everything is tight. Larry was kind enough to leave it so that I can take the light apart - everything inside is just as clean as the outside. 

3. Size - It is .75" diameter. Compared with the previous general ARC LS, that is about a 45% percent reduction in physical volume. It definitely feels like it should fit just fine on a key chain. It does indeed feel a whole lot smaller than the ARC LS. It is a SNUG fit on the batteries. I take the cover off the batteries to insert it. So, my body requires a bare shiny battery without wrapping. 

Yes, the walls are much thinner than the ARC but still PLENTY strong. I don't see any problem at all in the daily knocks. Maybe if I try to drive a 4000 lb vehicle over this light on a concrete drive....but that is not normal usage at all.

4. Beam - I am VERY surprised at how similar to the full sized NX05 beam. This light happens to be a touch brighter than the standard current version standard ARC LS that I have. The beam is a bit broader and smoother in the transition from center to edge. It is also whiter. However, my previous generation ARC LS with a particularly nice Luxeon and modified with the NX01 collimator is both whiter and brighter. (Caveat: The NX01 is my favorite beam shape with a larger and more even hot spot, but less side spill.) Therefore, Larry's light surprised me with its performance. I thought the short collimator would be terrible but it is not at all. 

5. Very impressed with the material selection. Obviously Larry used copper for the heatsink. Intelligent design but more work obviously. This does make the light heavier than the ARC LS. I misplaced my digital scale but will update with actual weight soon. 

6. Practicality: the .75" diameter fits in a pocket much less obtrusively. It practically swims in my nylon pouch which I use for the ARC. Also, I love to 'gum' my ARC LS between my lips to leave both hands free. (No saliva gets on the light.) This light with the smaller diameter is easier to gum and I do this a lot - almost like a headlight for short durations. 
Another nod at practicality is the inclusion of a lens to protect the collimator. Larry even sent me other goodies including additional lens so if mine gets scratched, it can be replaced. Now, if we flashlightlens.com can supply tiny coated glass lens, we'll be set!
Incidentally, the design should also be quite water resistant given the tight O-ring seals and that the lens is very snug. 

7. Have not tested battery life yet. But my understanding is that the micropuck lasts 2-3 hours but steadily dims? Anyone confirms this? 

8. The only problem is that I light this light so much now that I dare not put it on my keychain. 

9. Other have commented on this so I'll refrain except to echo: LOTS of intelligent design in this light. Very very well thought through and executed. For a FIRST light done in his spare time, this light just blows me away. Really remarkable. 

OK, here's just one person's thoughts. I hope this goes into production eventually. 

The most important part of this flashlight for me is obviously that it represents Larry's generous spirit. (Notice he is donating one to auction off to raise funds for CPF.) 

Thanks,
Moses

ps: Please note that my light is absolutely not for sale...for those of you generous 'Paypal Sent' fans. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif Also, if you want schematics of the design, please contact Larry as the design is his and should be under his control.


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## ufokillerz (Apr 21, 2003)

i'm drooling already. wish i was one of those guys/gals who are getting one.


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## Rothrandir (Apr 21, 2003)

wow! that is amazing!

larry is a truly wonderful guy. i've had the privelege of exchanging several emails with him, and he has always stood out as a top notch individual. (and no, i'm not buttering up for a light /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif ) (but if he wanted to send me one, i'd probably accept /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif )


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## paulr (Apr 21, 2003)

My god, what a gorgeous light. I really really want one.

One suggestion, how about putting the lanyard tab on the side like a rocket fin, instead of on the end. That would both keep the light from rolling, and allow standing it on end pointing upward to light a room.


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## paulr (Apr 21, 2003)

[dumb question deleted. never mind!]


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## Tomas (Apr 21, 2003)

Because round bar stock doesn't come with rocket fins? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif 

(I'll bet the slick one without any lanyard tab would take the pocket clip from a CMG Infinity ... )


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## paulr (Apr 21, 2003)

OMG, it hadn't even occurred to me that the tab on the end was cut away from the same bar stock as the tube. I figured it was welded on. Now I understand what tvodrd meant about it being a PITA to machine. Wow!


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## d'mo (Apr 21, 2003)

Oh, Man! I'm hyperventilating! Save me! Someone PLEASE make this light!


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## Bushman (Apr 21, 2003)

Larry, did you contact Peter Gransee about this light?


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## Ben H (Apr 21, 2003)

I can't wait to hear more information about who is going to build this light!


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## paulr (Apr 21, 2003)

If you have to peel the outer wrapper off the 123 cell to get it into the light, I think this can't be a "mass market" product (at least to the extent that the Arc LS is a mass market product). But I wouldn't change it /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif. I'd rather peel batteries for it than take a 1mm diameter increase. But that's just me. Whoever makes these things for sale will have to consider this issue.


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## tvodrd (Apr 21, 2003)

paulr,

Mo's lanyardless case doesn't have a battery contact in the bottom. He will have to "peel" 123s for (-) electrical contact. So far all the 123s I have tried fit. The SFs are snug- sometimes they take a little "pinky" push to install, and a few taps to remove them.

DavidW has accepted my offer of one to auction for the CPF. I would appreciate any suggestions of how to go about this, as I am not on ebay.

Larry


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## paulr (Apr 21, 2003)

Re the auction, I'd say just send it to Dave and let him deal with it. I think some auctions are done here on CPF instead of on Ebay. I like that better since I'm not that crazy about Ebay any more.

Either way, I'm sure the bidding will go higher than I can afford. I'll have to wait for a higher volume run... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif


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## DSpeck (Apr 21, 2003)

I am considering building this light. I think it would be necessary to increase the OD to .775" (a little over the present size) to accomodate an increase in ID of the same extra .025", so as to allow an easier fit of the batteries.

I will be finished my semester this week, so I will get on the AutoCAD and see what I can come up with later on in the week. (Exams come first, after all...) By this weekend, I should be able to post AutoCAD pictures of my idea for the light. I think it will be a little bit different, since I plan to use a dat2zip sandwich. 

To deal with the thermal issues, it may prove to be a good idea to use an adjustable Madmax, and turn it down a little. The user could adjust the brightness, at the expense of runtime and heat. The Madmax gives the best value for runtime, as it sucks the batteries just about dry...

I've seen several opinions on this issue (brightness), but I haven't seen any real consensus - let's hear some more! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif


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## paulr (Apr 21, 2003)

If there's a size vs brightness tradeoff, I'd keep in mind that this light aims for minimum size, so I'm willing to lose a little brightness for it. I'm opposed to limiting the duty cycle to avoid overheating. I'd rather run at lower brightness to it stays cool. I'm also ok with the copper heatsink even though it weighs more, though that's a trickier question. Maybe I'd sacrifice some further brightness if a lot of weight reduction would result.

I don't think of this as an LS1 or KL1 replacement. I'd rather think of it as an Arc AAA on steroids. As such, even at 0.5 watt, it will massively outshine an AAA, and that's all I'm looking for.


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## ufokillerz (Apr 21, 2003)

i'd suggest ebay, find a member willing to host the auction and make note of it on CPF so others know about it. Ebay is the best way to do it being that theres a set end time, where on CPF its showing your bid makes it unfair.


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## paulr (Apr 21, 2003)

On CPF you can do sealed bids, just send your bids by PM. I don't know how it's been done on CPF before though.

Another method might be to hold a raffle. Anyone who wanted a chance at it would pay $5 or $10 for a "ticket". Then it would go to whoever won the raffle. I think that method is friendlier than an auction, since it gives everyone an equal shot (some of us aren't so rich).


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## tvodrd (Apr 21, 2003)

Whew!
Mo, thanks for the review! You didn't mention your bat cases were sor of _leftovers_ /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif I never thought to weigh one, and am looking fwd to how it compares to the current Arc LS. (Edit: Thank you again for having sold me my first ever 5W LS!) /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Roth, thanks! My kid bro is coming out in a couple weeks, and I am still looking for some "goodies" to send back with him. (Worked my way through college with my own shop, doing motorcycle goodies.)

tomas, The Infinity clip fits fine, but its hokey due to the location of the knurls.

Bushman, I mailed mine to Peter G. for a look/see. He is welcome to use any features, or make it, for that matter.
The design (Not the example /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif ) is his for free, if he wants it.

Doug, The design uses 11/16-24 NEF threads. IMO, it will be unnecessary to open it up. (Another .010 would still offer sufficient thread engagement and might not be a bad idea /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif )

paulr, Replacing the center section with aluminum would simply decrease the time for the light to reach its equilibrium temperature- it would get as hot as it is going to sooner. I like your raffle idea: Ticket $5 and _one_ ticket to a current member. I gotta email David and see what he thinks!

Larry


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## tsg68 (Apr 21, 2003)

Larry, I just wanted to post my sentiments at seeing your generosity and good spirit expressed in this thread. You are a true credit to the CPF and I would hope it's entire membership gains a great deal from not only your skill and knowledge but also your chivalry, community minded nature, and good humor/humility, Bravo! You are a great example of the values we all should aspire to. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbsup.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbsup.gif 

I hope that whoever runs with this remembers to take care of you. If not I'll gladly contribute.

Sincerely,
TSG /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif


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## bwcaw (Apr 21, 2003)

I just saw this tread, and spent the last hour reading all 16 pages, and this light is AWESOME!!! Wow, I sure hope Peter, or someone makes this little pocket rocket! Great job Tvodrd! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/bowdown.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/bowdown.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbsup.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbsup.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/bowdown.gif


edit: Why don't you call it the Tvodrd POCKET ROCKET? It sure fits the bill. It fits in your pocket, and puts out as much light as a light almost twice it's size! Just a thought.


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## Kill-O-Zap (Apr 21, 2003)

"Pocket Rocket", eh? Did the name-this-light contest ever get off the ground? "small 123/LS light," the only thing we have to call it so far, is almost as uninspired a name as the "Streamlight 4AA 7LED" /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif


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## paulr (Apr 21, 2003)

Thinking about it more I really like a raffle better than an auction for a popular and unique item like this. It probably raises more $$ for the site than an auction would, since dozens of people would buy tickets, and it would give everyone a fair shot. Yes, tickets should be limited to one per person. 

Re the heat sink, the proposal was to use a lighter heat sink and run the LED at lower power (and less brightness) to keep the heat down. Obviously some people will want lower weight and others will want all the brightness they can get, so it's a typical engineering trade-off.

I think the time has really come for this kind of light. 
http://www.candlepowerforums.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=UBB14&Number=221458&page=1&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1
is a thread about another one. 

BTW, I want to join tsg68 and others in thanking you for your generosity in donating the light to the community. Kudos! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbsup.gif


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## Tomas (Apr 22, 2003)

In recent PM's with Larry I have already expressed my opinions on the heat issue (especially when using a sandwich, which has a less effective and more finicky heat path to the heat sink mass than the original design).

My desire is for whatever is produced to be a SERIOUS light, not an intermittant-use-only toy, at least if I'm going to buy one. This is how I use my Arc LS Hybrid, and how I would potentially use ANY flashlight. 

Using a sandwich also loses the advantage of having the optic pressing the LED into even better contact with the heat sink, and may lose some of the simpleness of the front seal of the head.

This does not mean that a sandwich should not be used, I'm just mentioning potential trade-offs that need to be considered. Personally I consider the electrical design of the regulated sandwiches (BBX00, etc.) to be the best on the market. 

BTW: I'm not designing this light, just hoping that someone makes it ... I'm also less comfortable discussing design tradeoffs on a public forum, so I'll quietly bow out. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif


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## BuddTX (Apr 22, 2003)

I like the idea of a lottery also!


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## paulr (Apr 22, 2003)

Yes to lottery, and I also second the name "Pocket Rocket"!


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## paulr (Apr 23, 2003)

FYI, I posted links to some sources of cheap CR2's over in the electronics forum. Their prices have dropped to 123 levels. Higher battery costs had been one of my reservations about a CR2 light but it's less of an issue now.


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## [email protected] (Apr 23, 2003)

Pocket Rocket? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon3.gif




/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ohgeez.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif



/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon15.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/twak.gif



/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/yellowlaugh.gif


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## FalconFX (Apr 23, 2003)

Darn!

I thought that was an excellent name, too...


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## Rothrandir (Apr 23, 2003)

leave it to bart...

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif


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## Lux Luthor (Apr 23, 2003)

[ QUOTE ]
*DSpeck said:*
I am considering building this light...

...To deal with the thermal issues, it may prove to be a good idea to use an adjustable Madmax, and turn it down a little. The user could adjust the brightness, at the expense of runtime and heat...

[/ QUOTE ]

That would be great! I would LOVE an adjustable one. Since this could be the only light you have with you in a given situation, I think an adjustable runtime would be a tremendous plus. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif


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## paulr (Apr 23, 2003)

I believe that to adjust the brightness with a madmax you have to take the light apart and tweak a tiny little trimmer pot. It's not something you could do while using the light. It's still a nice feature though.


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## kodiak (Apr 23, 2003)

I just recieved an ARC LS rev 1. I have an E1. I am going to make a adaptor from E1 head to ARC tail. Should be pretty short. Twist on still.


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## paulr (Apr 23, 2003)

McGizmo made one of those, there has to be an extension sleeve to make space for the battery so I think total length ends up about the same. Pics are on his web site.


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## DavidW (May 10, 2003)

My digital camera is charging. I'll post pics tonight.

I'm thinking of keeping this on CPF instead of using ebay. What do guys think?


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## Tomas (May 10, 2003)

If you can manage it well on CPF, David, I don't see a reason for getting eBay involved, however, if you have any question about keeping everything in line, then let eBay take the heat.

I'm just going to be watching because I expect this to go well over my limit quite quickly. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ooo.gif


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## paulr (May 10, 2003)

David, I wonder what you thought of the idea of a raffle instead of an auction, which came up before. The raffle has a good chance of bringing in more cash (a few hundred tickets sold at $5 each) and IMO is more in the community spirit (an auction is more of a contest to find the richest member).


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## Icebreak (May 10, 2003)

What Tomas said.

Also, to me it would be great fun to watch this happen at CPF and be able to congratulate the new owner as well as razz them a little. I suppose it would be fine to have a lottery. That would probably be the only way I would have a chance at it. However, it might be fun to watch an auction. I like estimating.

What ever method you use, if it is a CPF thing, you might consider predicting what questions may arise and stating the rules precisely and ahead of time. In doing this, I think the event will be more likely to be fun.

However it works out the S123LSL is a darling.


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## Mrd 74 (May 10, 2003)

My vote is for a members only CPF raffle,non members are simply not worthy of such a light.


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## DavidW (May 10, 2003)

I've had this light for a few days now. (Hoping nobody would remember what was sent to me. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif ) But the light is awesome. I can't keep it to myself.

As far as raffle goes I don't think I can do that. Gaming laws and such. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Raffle could be more friendly to CPF members. But auction is the simplist way to go right now. In my opinion.


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## tvodrd (May 10, 2003)

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif I knew I had forgotten something. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Thank you for providing a fun and well-mannered board!

Larry


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## Tomas (May 10, 2003)

Hmmmmm ... We should ask for an additional review of the S123LS from you, David. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif 

(Now, just so I can at least say I tried, I open this at $50. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif )

_Next!_


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## moses (May 10, 2003)

NOTE: In my review, I stated that this light is heavier than the ARC LS with the twistie tail which is already lighter than the clickie switch. 

I finally weighed both on the digital scale. Guess what: exact same weight. 1.9 ounces each. 

The smaller body FEELS heavier (because the weight is distributed over a smaller area) but isn't at all. 

Just thought I'd update it. 

GREAT GREAT light!

Moses


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## Icebreak (May 10, 2003)

I see your $50.00 bid on the S123LS and raise you $5.00 for $55.00.

Well, you started it! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif


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## moses (May 10, 2003)

Being the greedy sort, I'll raise you guys $ and go $60. (Just kidding in that this one should go nicely into the three figure zone.)

Moses


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## yclo (May 11, 2003)

$62.47


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## Tomas (May 11, 2003)

I wouldn't have been surprised if an opening bid of $200 had been topped almost immediately, *Icebreak*. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif 

I know there is no way for me to honestly win the bidding I expect to see for this light, so I had to get my bid in early while I still could, even if it was before the auction. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif Now I can just sit back and watch.

I wonder what the _real_ opening will be?

*David*, they're ready! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/popcorn.gif


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## DavidW (May 11, 2003)

I won't put it up for bid until sometime next week. All should have a chance. And we have members who post only on the weekend or weekday.


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## yclo (May 11, 2003)

That and you still want to keep it for *reviewing* don't you? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif


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## JonSidneyB (May 11, 2003)

Oh my.....I have not been here for awhile.....but I am one loaded down with lights...but this is the Light that I really want....

The perfect KeyChain light....

This is a must have....

I think the KeyChain light should be simple....

Only thing I think is wrong with it, is that the attachment point should be more centered.

Great Job


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## DavidW (May 12, 2003)

I'm planning on doing this Thursday night. CPF only.

Sorry for not posting pics. My camera is good to go. But I can't get my USB drivers for my new motherboard to load properly.


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## whiskypapa3 (May 14, 2003)

Now that I've finished my Titanium flashlight I think I'm going to HAVE to do one of these. My 3x393 mini looks lonesome on my keyring and is begging for a brass 123 to snuggle up to.


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## BuddTX (May 15, 2003)

[ QUOTE ]
*DavidW said:*
As far as raffle goes I don't think I can do that. Gaming laws and such. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Raffle could be more friendly to CPF members. But auction is the simplist way to go right now. In my opinion. 

[/ QUOTE ]

THIS Answers my question, before I even answer it!

Well, I think this light is just awesome, but I am not going to pay a house note for the light.

I would love to see a lottery, but I understand your reasonings.

Hey, churches and little leauges and others do lotteries and raffles.


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## JonSidneyB (May 15, 2003)

I am wondering if this light will be manufactured...I see some have shown interest in producing it. I for one would love to see it become a reality


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## DSpeck (May 15, 2003)

I will be producing this light this summer. I am working on getting the machining done. I will be posting here in the Mods forum when the details are nailed down, which should be in a couple of weeks. If it turns out to be well received, I may very well make it a regular offering... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif


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## paulr (May 15, 2003)

Doug, will you also do the CR2 version? I'd have a hard time choosing between them but would probably go for the smaller one, even at reduced brightness.


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## DSpeck (May 15, 2003)

Not being a major manufacturer (maybe someday), I only have the resources to do one major item at a time. The manufacture of an entire light (even this small) counts as a major item for me at this stage. I have a couple of other projects on the go at this time, so my time is filling up...


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## shiftd (May 15, 2003)

take your time, Doug. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif (but hurry up) /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon15.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif


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## paulr (May 16, 2003)

Doug, if you've already decided to make the 123 then that's great and I'll be interested in buying one. However, if that's not a firm decision and you can only do one light, then I'll "vote" for the CR2 (unless of course Elektrolumens makes that one), just on the idea that it's an even more unique light and can't really be substituted by an Arc LS.


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## ufokillerz (May 16, 2003)

lets hope doug doesnt charge the "going" price for one of these babies when they are available.


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## paulr (May 16, 2003)

Hee hee. Here's Larry's "family picture" from the other thread, by the way. I love this shot.


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## DSpeck (May 16, 2003)

Well, I've pretty solidly decided to do the 123 light. It's smaller and lighter than an Arc-LS, but it fills a different role than the Arc-LS, really. It's much more of a keychain-sized light than the Arc-LS. 

The CR2 light is smaller still, that's true, but the battery is harder to find, and I think it's still more expensive than the 123, when you buy the SF or other cheap 123s available from the on-line dealers here. Overall, I think this small 123 light is the more practical one for me to do.


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## Kercheval (May 16, 2003)

DSpeck, I would definitely buy a couple of these when production happens. Make it visible and I bet you get at least a hundred solid CPF orders...


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## keithhr (May 16, 2003)

DSpeck, I presume a lot of people will be in on this light,myself included, people won't want to be left out.


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## paulr (May 16, 2003)

Out in the brick and mortar world, CR2's and 123's are equally easy to find, since both are considered camera batteries that nobody would be silly enough to use in a flashlight /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif. Most APS cameras use CR2's so they're fairly popular. However, either battery tends to cost $5 or more in places like that.

I posted a thread a few weeks ago with a bunch of online places selling CR2's for under $2, if that helps. It's still higher than 123's, but I just don't think it's that much of an issue. (Runtime per cell would be about the same since the CR2 light would have to use less power). Until a few months ago all the Surefire users here were paying $4 or more for 123's and cooking two or three of them at a time in an hour or less. $2 for a two-hour CR2 isn't bad by comparison.

Finally, a CR2 is just slightly larger in diameter than an AA, so maybe there could be an alternate tailpack that holds one AA, if the boost converter can run on that low voltage (otherwise it could use a pair of 1/2 AA NiMH). That would make operation very economical, at the cost of some size.


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## DSpeck (May 16, 2003)

That sounds great. I will definitely be making an announcement in the Mods forum, no fear on that score. I'll give about a week or so for people to order, so as to allow as many people as want to, to jump on the wagon for this one. 

Like I said, I will be working on this in the next couple of weeks, getting quotes from the machining places and so on. I am aiming for a price of around $100US, just to give you all an idea. I am not sure I can make it for less than that, but that will depend on the quotes I get.

BTW, I would like to make these in a distinctive colour, not the standard black or natural. It will be HA3, but I would like to make it in a dark blue, for example. I am not sure what choices I have available, as I haven't asked the anodizers yet. I'll see if they have some examples, and try to get/post pictures if I can, so as to show you what the colour will be. 

Now, I'm sure everyone has their opinion, so let's find out what those are...what do you think? Colour choices, people?


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## DSpeck (May 16, 2003)

Paulr, I just saw your post about the CR2s, and the idea of an alternate pack is certainly possible. AS long as the alternate batteries are smaller than the 123, that kind of thing could be an added-cost option, I think.


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## tvodrd (May 16, 2003)

DSpeck,

You have an opportunity here, and I sincerely wish you the best! I do recommend that you seriously prototype your design, especially with respect to tolerance stacks! Wayne's "sandwiches" are drop-ins for MiniMags, and are dimensionally-inconsistant wrt parallism and concentricity of the stacked boards. (No problem with their intended use!) You can ask the purchasers to ftf (file-to-fit) their modules, but some of them may be less likely to suceed. This project is somewhat more involved that your UBHs!

I hope it works out- they're a nice light.

Larry


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## Glow Bug (May 16, 2003)

Count me in for one.


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## DSpeck (May 16, 2003)

Thanks, Larry. I haven't seen many of the sandwiches in person yet, so I'm not sure of the dimensional tolerances. That's one of the things I'll have to discuss with him.


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## paulr (May 16, 2003)

Doug, Larry's CR2 light design is significnatly different (and smaller) than the 123 design. A CR2 tailpack for the 123 light would only save a few mm in length and nothing in thickness, so wouldn't be that big a help. On the other hand I remember now the CR2 light required lapping down the converter board for smaller thickness, something probably not practical for a semi-production light.

$100 for these lights sounds about right, it's about what an Arc LS costs, so we can't really expect it to be lower.

As for colors, yes I'm all in favor of something interesting. I'll vote for a darkish red, like a red Mag light or a swiss army knife. Blue is also fine, as is black, natural HA, or whatever.


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## tvodrd (May 16, 2003)

paulr,

I would _love_ to see a manufacturer produce either of the lights for _consumption_ by the CPF memebers who will appreciate them! Mixing "tail packs" is probably not an option, as the CR2 is much smaller. I am trying to get Wayne/dat2zip's attention for 2 or three MM+ boards- might make possible an actual adjustable design! I'm currently EDCing the CR2, and I love this sucker! You guys will decide what results!

Larry


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## DSpeck (May 16, 2003)

Paul, you are right about the CR2 light being difficult to make due to the custom sandwich. There is no way I am going to be able to do that to 100 lights. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon3.gif I want to be able to offer these lights on a semi-regular basis, so I'll have to use the standard sandwiches.

I have thought about incorporating a flood-type reflector (straight sides, a la McFlood), with a lens protecting the open end, instead of the cut-down optics. 

Does anybody think this would be a good (or bad) idea? Reasons?


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## paulr (May 16, 2003)

I like the idea of a flood. Small lights are generally for use up close; long-distance throw isn't that important.


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## yclo (May 17, 2003)

Are you planning on selling these assemblied or the buyer has to put them together like a lego set?

The optics will be the hardest part, since its diameter will have to be reduced.


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## jkthomson (May 17, 2003)

any possibility of just getting the guts of the light, without the sandwich? Would this even work?

Us madmax/BB owners could then swap the sandwiches out from our mags...

just a thought.


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## Rothrandir (May 17, 2003)

i think the optics would be preferable.
you should get a fairly wide beam as it is, and if this light has throw, people you show it off to will be even more impressed /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif


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## Icebreak (May 17, 2003)

[ QUOTE ]
*Icebreak said:*
[ QUOTE ]
*Tomas said:*

Please, folks, the original design is well thought out and its form is based on function. That original design is what excited us because we could see it's excellence. It was a well though out complete engineering job. Any change to any tiny bit of it forces a re-examination of the entire design, and is NOT as simple as it might seem. The design is a unified whole.

Change is good, but the first run should be *THIS* light.


[/ QUOTE ]
I agree. Certainly there is room for change on subsequent runs. Also, though a kit is fine idea for some folks, I prefer a complete light that proves the harmony between design elements, power components and photon management. "The design is a unified whole" 

[/ QUOTE ]

Tomas -

I apologize for the apparent co-sign.

Dspeck -

It just seems like your vision of a do-able S123LS is far removed from the original. With some timidity I might suggest that you consider referencing your version as "your version" in some way. Maybe SXLS-DS? 

I'm glad to see the successful deployment of your UBHs. The vast possibilities these bring is exciting. Mr. Bulk's idea of Photon Baton and also his idea of using your UBHs before they had even been produced, in a similar configuration would be a good arrangement. I would be all over that. Then I saw where ModMen were building E23s with your UBHs and thought they were most excellent.

I would like to encourage you on your efforts to produce your version of the Small 123 LS Light.

Regards,

- Ice


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## DSpeck (May 17, 2003)

Yclo, jkthomson - I am planning to offer these lights as a complete unit, but I can offer it as complete except for the sandwich if there is demand for it.

Roth, I see what you mean... 

Icebreak, thanks for your thoughts on this light. My intention is not to make major changes in this light, but to try to simplify its manufacture. If I can simplify it, I can get them out to you faster, and may be able to make them for less. 

I don't really think changing the case colour is much of a consideration, but the switch from the micro-puck to the MadMax sandwich will shorten the light overall, and will offer the user some adjustability. Both of these are mentioned by tvodrd as improvements he wanted to look at, and I think they will improve the light. 

The switch from a modified collimator to an integral flood-style reflector is something I wanted to discuss here, and you have made your case clear. Thanks for your opinion - that's what I am looking for. If it seems like it will not be an improvement, I won't do it.

I will need a name to call this light, since calling it a "small 123/LS" light doesn't cut it. I know it's opening a can of worms (I've seen the other threads on naming), but can I have some ideas on names? It's a small light, and "whatever-Lux" has been covered before, and it won't be a "devastator", after all. Using something already in use won't do. Something suggesting small and bright would be good. Let's hear 'em, people! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif


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## LEDmodMan (May 17, 2003)

Uh-oh, now you've done it Doug! 

The Pocket Rocket! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

*edit*
Even with what [email protected] shows below, I still like the name! If it's just for limited CPF production, then the name doesn't really matter, as it's not really commercial.


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## [email protected] (May 17, 2003)

[ QUOTE ]
*[email protected] said:*
Pocket Rocket? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon3.gif





/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ohgeez.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif



/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon15.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/twak.gif



/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/yellowlaugh.gif 

[/ QUOTE ] 

Too bad... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon23.gif


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## shiftd (May 17, 2003)

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/yellowlaugh.gif

How about Candlelux? or Pockelux? Lumenarcs?


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## obeck (May 17, 2003)

NubLux, BitLux, BitLS, 123LS


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## Icebreak (May 17, 2003)

DSpeck -

It's nice to know the price will be less than $601.01. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

- Jeff


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## FalconFX (May 17, 2003)

_It's nice to know the price will be less than $601.01 _

$600 can buy you quite a few lights...
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ooo.gif


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## V8TOYTRUCK (May 17, 2003)

Firefly, CPF-LS


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## obeck (May 17, 2003)

[ QUOTE ]
*jkthomson said:*
any possibility of just getting the guts of the light, without the sandwich? Would this even work?

Us madmax/BB owners could then swap the sandwiches out from our mags...

just a thought. 

[/ QUOTE ]

That is so true, and here is my reasoning.. I already have a couple of Arcs and a MM/BB400 . I simply cannot buy another LS flashlight (though I would like an LS4/SF type head that takes 2-7 V). The MM/BB400 is approximately the same size as an ARC LS with 2AA TSP. I would, in a heartbeat, pull the BB400 from the MM and put it in a 123 light of this type. So, if this light is built modularly such that you could put in the sandwich of your choice... so that those of us that already have a sandwich can put it in and save on the overall cost of the light... then I could justify the new light.


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## LEDmodMan (May 17, 2003)

[email protected], I knew Pocket Rocket wasn't going to work, but it was the first thing that hit me. I'll come up with something better.


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## FalconFX (May 17, 2003)

NightPik....


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## Mrd 74 (May 17, 2003)

MicroSpeck 123


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## yclo (May 17, 2003)

The Six Hundred Dollar Light.


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## moses (May 17, 2003)

Call mine the 'Larry Light'. Not catchy but accurate. And with Larry's generosity, wanted to get his name in there somewhere. 

Moses


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## r2 (May 17, 2003)

PicoLux?

- Russ


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## Tomas (May 17, 2003)

*LS600? * /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif


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## DSpeck (May 17, 2003)

You know, I think I like the name "Firefly". That works for me, so let's offically dub it the *Firefly*, and refer to it as that from now on. Thanks for the idea, V8Toyotatrk! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbsup.gif


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## shiftd (May 17, 2003)

Nice. Firefly is a good name. So, availability date please? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif


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## DSpeck (May 17, 2003)

The Firefly will be available sometime this summer... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif 

I really have to get out of the habit of promising delivery times I can't provide... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif but I'm pretty sure I can get these out before the end of August, and I'd like to see them out before the end of July. I will be sending out for quotes in the next week or so, so I will have a better idea soon.


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## Tomas (May 17, 2003)

(Hope nobody gets upset, this is just humor, OK?)

Seeing the minor changes sneeking into the original design, I was reminded of a joke I hadn't heard for probably 35-40 years ... 

*The Fleamarket*

Excuse me! I see that this little hatchet is marked as "George Washington's Original Cherry Tree Chopping Hatchet."

_Yup! Sure is!_ 

You're kidding, right?

_Nope! That's the one and only original right there in your hand, and only $20!_

But this CAN'T be the original! It's in too good a shape - it almost looks brand new!

_Oh yeah, that's the original, all right. It's just had some work on it is all._

What do you mean, "Some work?"

_ Well, you know how old it is, right? _

Uh-huh.

_ Well in that many years there's a certain amount of wear and tear, and in order to keep it in good shape it's had some, uh, replacement parts._

Replacement parts?

_ Yup! Had to keep it up, you know._

Well, what sort of replacement parts has it had?

_Well, let's see, uh, the head's been replaced twice and it' on it's fourth handle_

That's not original, then!

_Sure it is! They weren't all replaced at once._ 

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif


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## DSpeck (May 17, 2003)

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif


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## John Frederick (May 18, 2003)

Doug, as this thread is already huge and it's really about Larry's creation I propose starting a new "Firefly" thread. 
JMHO.


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## DSpeck (May 19, 2003)

A good idea. I'll start one today.


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## Tomas (May 21, 2003)

While I was just reading yet another (new) thread about the LarryLight (LL123 ?) I happened to wonder:

*What would a Hand Signed LL123 have brought?* /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ooo.gif


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## Tomas (May 31, 2003)

Just thought I should bounce this thread up to somewhere near the top of the stack again - it was about 6 pages back ... 

The related thread on the FireFly (soon to be produced and based on this design) is HERE.


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## Tomas (Jul 13, 2003)

This time the thread was waaaaayyy back in the list, so it was time to bump it again so folks could find it.

Now that the FireFly is being pre-ordered there are a lot of questions about the forerunner of the FireFly, and that is the place to get the answers. The very first post in this thread has a lot of the info, but there are a lot of tidbits (and a lot of history on how the FireFly came about) in the rest of the posts.

Pack a lunch, and something to drink, if you plan to read the whole thing ...





Take care,


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## keithhr (Jul 13, 2003)

thanks for bringing it back, I looked for it a while ago and must admit, I didn't find it.


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## JonSidneyB (May 3, 2004)

To me, this is the best 123 keychain light ever built.

Thanks Tvord


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## Doug S (May 3, 2004)

As I recall, this thread was the first post of Larry's that made CPF folks sit up and notice that this was a modder to be reckoned with. He hasn't disappointed us since. I feel privileged to know that he ain't done yet.


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## JonSidneyB (May 3, 2004)

I just love mine....it is by far my favorite light, this light was not meant to be sitting on a shelf. This light wants to be carried everyday everywhere. This is the one light that I will never get rid of.


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## Greymage (May 3, 2004)

[ QUOTE ]
*Doug S said:*
As I recall, this thread was the first post of Larry's that made CPF folks sit up and notice that this was a modder to be reckoned with. He hasn't disappointed us since. I feel privileged to know that he ain't done yet. 

[/ QUOTE ]
I agree, this is my EDC now - it's an awesome light. Thanks to Larry for designing it, and Doug for building it, and gadget_lover(?) for designing a two-stage switch, and Wayne for carrying mod kits in the sandwich shop... I love CPF /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif


And I hope the FF2 will make the original obsolete /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif


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## JonSidneyB (May 3, 2004)

I have an original Tvord, surprized as one might be, it is quite a bit smaller than the Firefly. Tvord is the King builder of handmade lights. I do need to photograph my Tvord light soon and show it next to other 123 lights.


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## code09 (Mar 13, 2005)

[ QUOTE ]
*moses said:*
Whoo....its official and public now! 

Just awesome. In my mind, there's no question that this is now THE STATE OF ART in single 123 design, regardless of whether it is incandescent or LED. (WOrth nothing that this is not some low powered luxeon mod. It is a full powered 1 watt luxeon with the micropuck.) The amazing thing is that Larry did this whole run in his 'spare time'. I'm just blown away by the teeny size of these things from the first time Larry mentioned them. Imagine - a 123 luxeon in all its glory, smaller than the Infinity. And the material - aluminium, copper, brass...all used to maximize the material's strengths.

I'm sure this thread will get long in a hurry. My thoughts are that Larry should go into manufacturing these beauties. 

WHooooo!!!

Mo

ps: Assuming that this is Larry's first attempt at making a full light. Can anyone imagine what amazing stuff the second attempt will produce? 

[/ QUOTE ]

Hello "moses". My name is also moses!
Nice to meet you....kinda

Moses


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## greenLED (Feb 22, 2006)

for search


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## JonSidneyB (Feb 22, 2006)

Good Job Green,

These are the first of the Larry created lights that he showed on CPF. One of those is mine.


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## JonSidneyB (Feb 22, 2006)

Maybe you will run across the first CPF Benefit auction where one of these was sold for $601.00.

It was a great purchase. Guess who one the auction.


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## ASP (Feb 23, 2006)

Put me down as PAYPAL SENT as well i love it


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## greenLED (Feb 23, 2006)

JonSidneyB said:


> Maybe you will run across the first CPF Benefit auction where one of these was sold for $601.00.
> 
> It was a great purchase. Guess who one the auction.


Who could it be?


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## JonSidneyB (Feb 23, 2006)

Thats it Green,

The first CPF benefit auction...I so love that light.


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## cratz2 (Feb 24, 2006)

Wow! This thread is a blast from the past... one of the first threads I read through when I first registered.


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## cy (Apr 11, 2006)

nice thread well worth revisiting. 

check out firefly 1 with tuned optics. probably the closest one will get to the original. 

FF1 was my EDC on a neck lanyard until it was replaced by Li14430/CR2.


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