# just bought an used knee mill ... photos!



## wquiles

Thanks to a "friendly" tip, I was alerted to this being available on Ebay. Listed first for $900 and no-one bid. Second time it listed for $850, but this time a few folks bidded - I got it for $1150. Now to worry about how to pick it up and getting it home!!!

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=170302029142&ru=http%3A%2F%2Fshop.ebay.com%3A80%2F%3F_from%3DR40%26_trksid%3Dm38%26_nkw%3D170302029142%2509%26_sacat%3DSee-All-Categories%26_fvi%3D1

Will


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## 65535

*Re: just bought an used knee mill ...*

Nice catch, I can't tell from the pics if it looks like hell or like a diamond. Either way should be functional with some work.


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## Mick

*Re: just bought an used knee mill ...*

I guess you own that rotary table also???
It is in the picture!


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## wquiles

*Re: just bought an used knee mill ...*



65535 said:


> Nice catch, I can't tell from the pics if it looks like hell or like a diamond. Either way should be functional with some work.


I honestly don't know. Brand new, it was $4910 from Enco, back 10 years ago. It is considered a "light duty" knee mill - about 1000 pounds or so. I will post pics later on and we will see if it was worth the money or not :thumbsup:



Mick said:


> I guess you own that rotary table also???
> It is in the picture!


I don't know since it was not part of the description. It would certainly be a nice "bonus" if it does come with it 

Will


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## StrikerDown

*Re: just bought an used knee mill ...*

Certainly looks like a beast for a garage shop. Congrats on the find! :twothumbs


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## precisionworks

*Re: just bought an used knee mill ...*



> I got it for $1150


Call da police, Will stole that thing


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## DonShock

*Re: just bought an used knee mill ...*

It looks like one of the cars are going to have to start sleeping outside to fit that in the garage/shop.


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## modamag

*Re: just bought an used knee mill ...*



DonShock said:


> It looks like one of the cars are going to have to start sleeping outside to fit that in the garage/shop.



The sacrifice we make for our beloved toys ... tools.
Nice Catch Will.


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## gadget_lover

*Re: just bought an used knee mill ...*

Ah yes, that's a newer model of the same design I have... Mine is from 1978.

It's surpringly solid and works well once you tram it, adjust everything. Hogging out 6061-t6 3/4 deep with a 3/4 inch end mill is possible. 







Daniel


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## wquiles

*Re: just bought an used knee mill ...*



gadget_lover said:


> Ah yes, that's a newer model of the same design I have... Mine is from 1978.
> 
> It's surpringly solid and works well once you tram it, adjust everything. Hogging out 6061-t6 3/4 deep with a 3/4 inch end mill is possible.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Daniel



Cool - so you can then tell me all of the tricks to getting this beast adjusted :devil:

How much space does it take from the back to the front handwheel? I am trying to decide where to put it in my garage 

So I guess the dude on the right is you? It is good to put a face to the name 

Will


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## Mirage_Man

*Re: just bought an used knee mill ...*

Good snag Will. That should work perfect for you.


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## precisionworks

*Re: just bought an used knee mill ...*

Will, 

Did you notice that the nameplate on yours says "Made in Taiwan" ? My Enco mill also says that. At some later date, their manufacturing was moved to China, after Taiwan prices became too high. Rong Fu is currently made in Taiwan, which is why many people prefer the Rong Fu to the Chinese Enco.

If your mill doesn't already have leveling feet (like those you installed on the lathe), the perfect time to put them on is while you have the engine lift. Mill leveling is not critical like a lathe, but it is really handy to have the table close to perfectly level - that allows using an angle meter (under $20) for quick set ups:








> all of the tricks to getting this beast adjusted


Daniel, your mill looks like a smaller version of a Bridgeport. If so, there are just a few things to fine tune. You'd think the instruction manual would help (Enco can provide one if you need it), but they are written in broken ChinGlish, and hard to understand They have a pdf of their similar knee mill, Model 100-5100, at: http://www.use-enco.com/Machinery/100-5100.pdf

If you Google Enco 100-5200, there's quite a bit of info available from different groups.

First is adjusting the saddle gibs that control the tightness of the ways on the table (X&Y movements). Next are the gibs that control knee tightness (Z movement).

The most important adjustment on any mill, whether it's a mill-drill or a knee mill, is the angular relationship of spindle to table, known as the tram. You want the angle to be 90.000° in both X & Y . Checking tram is easy, and is done by attaching an Indicol holder to the spindle, and using a dial test indicator (.0005" graduations) to touch off the table. When the spindle is in perfect alignment, the DTI will not move as it is rotated through a complete circle.


This photo shows how to check for tram, using a parallel.





I don't use anything under the DTI, and prefer to touch directly off the table. The machine's motor belt must be loose, so it's easy to swing the DTI. If you want to be extra safe, unplug the machine before proceeding.

If you want, a shop built tramming bar is not hard to make (shown here touching a gage block):





The problem with any fixture that uses either a collet or a drill chuck is that the runout of most drill chucks & R8 collets is substantial. Gripping on the spindle introduces the least amount of error.

It appears that the 100-5200 head will tilt left & right, which allows adjustment of the spindle to table in the X axis. It does not look like the head will nod up or down, so that adjustment is made by inserting very thin shim stock at the junction of the column to the head. Perfect tram is indicated when the DTI needle does not move when rotated in a complete circle, but reality is that +/- .0005" is acceptable.

(On the mill that many of us use, the head will not tilt or nod. Tram is adjusted by inserting thin shim stock at the junction of the column to the base.)


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## gadget_lover

*Re: just bought an used knee mill ...*

I've seen it referred to as a bridgeport clone, but I was not able to find a bridgport in this configuration. The head is not mounted on a ram of any kind, so it does not move in/out like the bridgports I've seen.

Daniel


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## StrikerDown

*Re: just bought an used knee mill ...*

Barry,

Do you find your mill needs readjustment often? 

How often should the tram be checked?


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## gadget_lover

*Re: just bought an used knee mill ...*

Yes that is me on the left in the green.... Oooops , that's the mill. I'm the geeky guy on the right.

I adjusted the tram on mine once and have not had to readjust it yet. The mating surface for the head's pivot point is 6 inches in diameter with 3 (or is it 4) big bolts to hold it still. The column's pivot is over 7 inches and also has some big, hefty bolts.

I will be double checking the tram as I work on some new projects.


As for adjustments, the one that had me flummoxed for a while was the X axis leadscrew nut. I had a LOT of backlash. I traced it down to the nut but I could not figure out how to tighten the screw that holds the nut.

I eventually found a manual that had an exploded view of the machine. The nut is held by a screw that comes up from the bottom of the dovetail that makes up the saddle's ways. You have to back the table almost off the knee to get to that screw.

All in all, I've been happy with the machine so far.  I'm sure Will will be too.

Daniel


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## precisionworks

*Re: just bought an used knee mill ...*



> a bridgeport clone


It's closer than most small mills are to a Bpt. 



> The head is not mounted on a ram


I noticed that too. The ram on a Bpt (or clone) allows forward & backward head movement, which can be nice for some parts. The Bpt head/ram assembly can rotate up to 90° left or right, which is sometimes useful. And the Bpt head can nod down or up, which can save an angle plate set up ... but is most useful for tramming. 

The head on both the Bpt & the Enco 100-5200 will tilt left & right, and some machinists use this feature so the part doesn't get double cut - but again, it makes tramming really easy.


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## precisionworks

*Re: just bought an used knee mill ...*



> Do you find your mill needs readjustment often?


Because there is no nod or tilt adjustment, and no ram to move in or out, the alignment stays really consistent. Not so on a Bpt, where one good crash with a 2" face mill means an immediate resetting of (at least) the tilt, and often the nod. 

My old boss, one of the best machinists I've ever known, had an incredible feel for mill operation. One time, I knocked the Bpt out of tram with (my favorite tool) a 2" face mill. But the shift was almost done, the part was almost done, and the needed tramming did not get done. The boss came in early the next morning & messed up a jig that was near completion, for which there was hell to pay:shakehead Guess who got to clean out the sump on the radial drill that day?

Even if adjustments stay pretty constant, it's always best to check tram before any critical job.


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## gadget_lover

*Re: just bought an used knee mill ...*

Hey Will, What are the measurements on your new toy?

The picture shows a lot of air between the spindle and table, but I'm pretty sure that was done with camera angles. The PDF that Barry found is for the smaller version (100-5100) , which has only 7 inches of Z. I could not find a manual for the 100-5200. It looks similar to mine so should have about 15 inches.


Before I forget... Getting it home depends on which model you have. If it's really the 600 lb model, a pickup and engine hoist will do it. If it's the 1200 pound model, it might be easier to rent a liftgate truck. Lots of folks move them around with 1 inch black pipe as rollers.


Daniel


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## precisionworks

*Re: just bought an used knee mill ...*

I believe the Grizzly G1004/G1008 is identical:

http://grizzly.com/images/manuals/g1008_m.pdf

Here are some interesting mods to the Grizzly ... these should keep Will out of trouble for quite a while:

http://www.kinzers.com/don/MachineTools/Grizzly_G1004/


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## gadget_lover

*Re: just bought an used knee mill ...*

I almost missed Will's question.

My mill takes up 48 inches front to back. That's to the edge of the handles.

It takes 60 inches side to side. Again to the outside of the handles.

You will , of course, need to be able to get to the belts to change speeds too. I blew it. I have to swing the DRO head out of the way to change the belts. 

Daniel


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## KC2IXE

*Re: just bought an used knee mill ...*

Nice little mill. I looked for one like that for a LONG time, but then found my Burke Millrite (aka a Rockwell) - ended up with the version with no nod. The dealer had 2 - one with Varispeed, nod, and the small table, but kinda beat, and one with belt change, the larger table, and no nod, but still showing oringinal flaking... Guess which one I took?

Congrats on the find - Knee Mills are a tad more versitile than Mill/drills. Plan on making a bunch of scrap - buy some material/get some from a scrap bin, and do things like square up the block, make grooves, etc - aka - play, before doing "real" work

Oh - and don't bother with the real cheap cutter sets. Frankly, they don't work real well, get good end mills - they don't have to be the TOP of the line. I've found little use for solid carbide, except when I needed a 9/32 ball end mill, and I could ONLY get it in carbide. I've had luck with OSG, Putnam, and Niagara (which I believe is a Travers Tool house brand). That said, the "house" brand cutters from the big houses (MSC, Travers etc) are a LOT better than the cheapy sets the same company often sells (stay away from the Enco cheap sets, even if they have been owned by MSC for something like a decade)

Roughing end mills, or even "fine finish" roughing (aka semi-roughing) take a lot less power to drive, and on a lighter mill, put a lot less forces on the mill - I bought a couple of STEEL (not Carbide) Niagara 3 flute roughing mills in 3/8", and they are one of my favorate mills to use (I don't know if they are still made)

Just like any other machine tool, you can easily spend more on tooling than the machine, and mills are worse than a lathe, as the vise is expensive, and tooling (the mills) aren't cheap, and are not something you can re-sharpen yourself unless you have special tools


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## wquiles

*Re: just bought an used knee mill ...*

Well, thanks to Barry, my new mill is home. Let me share it in "my normal way", with lots of photos !!!

My day started early, and I was at the Uhaul place at 8:30AM this morning:







Since I don't own a vehicle with a hitch, I rented a small truck and the trailer:






I then went to the bank to get the Cashier's Check, and off I went. I did the pickup on my own, with only my GPS as company:






Got there 2 and 1/2 hours later - no problems. It was a medium size machine shop. They had a 2-3K pound BP-type mill, and another even bigger, probably in the 5K pound range. They had two CNC machines, a large lathe (like 16x60 or so, and something like my 12x36 or 14x40 was their smallest machine). This mill they got new 10 years ago, was used briefly, and it just sat in a corner for many years - basically it was too small for what they needed. The paint is still original and except for the years of neglect (no cleaning, just collecting dust), and superficial rust on the main bed, this machine looks much better than the pictures on Ebay. It did not even have an AC Plug, and the belts still clearly show all of the white lettering, while the pulleys show almost no wear - who knows when it was the last time this ran. This machine (made in Taiwan) was worth $4910.16 when new, back in 1998. Even now, it is easily worth twice what I paid, so I felt very lucky indeed. Thanks much Barry 

They had a fork lift, so loading the mill on the trailer was super easy:











I had no less than 6 straps on this thing!












So after another 2 and 1/2 hours (today was a LONG day!), I got home:





























































The 1 1/2 HP motor can be wired for both 110 or 220 - it is right now wired for 220:






I removed some pieces/parts, specially the motor, to make it lighter to move, and once my great neighbor came from work, he and I were able to slowly and carefully slide the mill to its new home (of course I had to make room for it):





















The garage is not fully organized yet, but it is getting better:






Will


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## precisionworks

*Re: just bought an used knee mill ...*

I really like your new machine The diameter of the quill looks to be as large as a full size Bridgeport, and the support of the head is massive. With a 2" face mill, that thing will fill your garage with blue chips.

I didn't see the knee crank handle in the eBay photos ... did you get that? 

Before running it at speed, you may want to pull out and repack the quill bearings. Over time, especially without use, bearing grease tends to dry out & harden. Enco tech services may be able to help you with this. If not, a large bearing supply house (like Motion Industries or Bearing Headquarters) can recommend a suitable grease, including the correct amount.

The one shot lube pump is a nice feature, found on most Bpts. Fill it with nondetergent 20W oil, pull the handle, and the knee, apron & table slides get what they need most.

Nice grab.


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## StrikerDown

*Re: just bought an used knee mill ...*

Nice... Very nice! The paint looks real good on it and you say it's dirty and dusty! Can't immagine what it will look like after you clean it up! 

Congrats Will! :wave:

Ray


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## gadget_lover

*Re: just bought an used knee mill ...*

I'm still waiting for the dimensions. Or did I miss them somewhere? Is the table 8.5 x 30 or 9 x 36? I can't really tell.

That is a good find. It looks to be in excellent shape. Better shape than mine. 

Did it really rotate 60 degrees in the bed of the trailer on the way home? That would be scary. Very scary.

Yes Barry, it will make blue chips with a 2 inch face mill. A shower of them, and boy are they HOT!

OK Will, Time to wire it up and make some chips!

Daniel


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## wquiles

*Re: just bought an used knee mill ...*



precisionworks said:


> I didn't see the knee crank handle in the eBay photos ... did you get that?


Yes, I got that 




precisionworks said:


> Before running it at speed, you may want to pull out and repack the quill bearings. Over time, especially without use, bearing grease tends to dry out & harden. Enco tech services may be able to help you with this. If not, a large bearing supply house (like Motion Industries or Bearing Headquarters) can recommend a suitable grease, including the correct amount.


I might have to contact you to review what needs adjustment - this is literally in a different class than my X2 mini-mill :devil:




gadget_lover said:


> I'm still waiting for the dimensions. Or did I miss them somewhere? Is the table 8.5 x 30 or 9 x 36? I can't really tell.
> 
> That is a good find. It looks to be in excellent shape. Better shape than mine.
> 
> Did it really rotate 60 degrees in the bed of the trailer on the way home? That would be scary. Very scary.
> 
> Yes Barry, it will make blue chips with a 2 inch face mill. A shower of them, and boy are they HOT!
> 
> OK Will, Time to wire it up and make some chips!
> 
> Daniel



- yes, it is in trully excellent shape - just plain dirty.
- the table is 8x30
- yes, the lathe moved a little bit right after I left, but when I stopped shortly after for gas, I re-aligned and tighten the straps again before the long trip back home.
- I need to first clean it well, adjust it, wire a 220V connector for it, and then I should be able to cut chips with it 

Will


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## gadget_lover

*Re: just bought an used knee mill ...*



wquiles said:


> - the bed is 8x30
> 
> Will



OK Will. Time to pop a cold one and take a break.

We know that your new lathe is just FANTASTIC. As a result it must, literally, be in your thoughts at all times. I'd have a hard time not thinking about it. I'd have a hard time not dreaming about it. I'd love one like that.

But it's time to twist your mind around a little.....

The mill does not have a bed. It has a TABLE.  The TABLE is 8x30. 


Which is a good size. Mines the same size, with the same general design and the same HP. The same wattage that is. I have added a SINO DRO to it, though I'm waiting for a replacement on a defective scale. In the mean time the Z axis scale is mounted on the Y axis. I'll be mounting a cheap Chinese scale to the quill soon, maybe today.

I'll post pictures when I'm done.

Daniel


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## G1K

Congrats. What are you going to make first?

R


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## wquiles

*Re: just bought an used knee mill ...*



gadget_lover said:


> OK Will. Time to pop a cold one and take a break.
> 
> We know that your new lathe is just FANTASTIC. As a result it must, literally, be in your thoughts at all times. I'd have a hard time not thinking about it. I'd have a hard time not dreaming about it. I'd love one like that.
> 
> But it's time to twist your mind around a little.....
> 
> The mill does not have a bed. It has a TABLE.  The TABLE is 8x30.
> 
> 
> Which is a good size. Mines the same size, with the same general design and the same HP. The same wattage that is. I have added a SINO DRO to it, though I'm waiting for a replacement on a defective scale. In the mean time the Z axis scale is mounted on the Y axis. I'll be mounting a cheap Chinese scale to the quill soon, maybe today.
> 
> I'll post pictures when I'm done.
> 
> Daniel



Oops - fixed 

Yes, a DRO. I "have" to install something!. I have a brand new, just completed (except for the box) Shumatech DRO (Milling Version), so I am debating going to that, or buying something "nicer". 

Is your SINO DRO from CDCO? Where exactly are you mounting the scales?

Will


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## Mirage_Man

*Re: just bought an used knee mill ...*



wquiles said:


> Oops - fixed
> 
> Yes, a DRO. I "have" to install something!. I have a brand new, just completed (except for the box) Shumatech DRO (Milling Version), so I am debating going to that, or buying something "nicer".
> 
> Is your SINO DRO from CDCO? Where exactly are you mounting the scales?
> 
> Will



Will,

If you can wait a few weeks I think Matt has a shipment of DROs coming in. I'm pretty sure for my mill I will be getting the Easson when he gets them in.


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## gadget_lover

*Re: just bought an used knee mill ...*



wquiles said:


> Oops - fixed
> 
> Yes, a DRO. I "have" to install something!. I have a brand new, just completed (except for the box) Shumatech DRO (Milling Version), so I am debating going to that, or buying something "nicer".
> 
> Is your SINO DRO from CDCO? Where exactly are you mounting the scales?
> 
> Will



My unit is from SHARS.com. It is the 12" x 24" x 16" 3 axis Dro digital readout glass linear knee Milling Package --- $640.00 The numbers at Shars refer to the travel, not the table dimensions nor the scale length. The Y axis really has less than 8 inches of travel, so 4 inches of that scale will be forever unused.

The 24 inch scale for the X axis is just over 30 inches long. I built standoffs to fit the table stop slot in the front of the table. I can still get to the stops and it is easily removable. The reader head is attached to a bracket on the saddle.

The Y axis is under the right side of the table, with the scale attached to supports attached to the saddle, and the reader attached to a bracket extending from the knee. Again, I have it far enough out and down so that I can reach the Y axis table stops with a socket wrench. It's complicated by the fact that my 1-shot oil pump is located on that side of the knee.

The Z axis is on the left side of the knee. I wanted to put the scale on the knee, and mount the reader to the column but found that to be problematic. The 16 inch scale is more like 21 inches long and no matter where I mounted it it looks funky. So it goes on the column and the reader on a bracket attached to the knee. Since the column is slanted, I am using a swiveling mount at one end and a standoff at the other to make it parallel to the movement of the knee. 

It's worth it to buy a mill with the DRO installed. Doing it right can be a pain in the neck.

Daniel


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## mdocod

*Re: just bought an used knee mill ...*

Congratulations!

that's a lot of machine for the dollar, Good Pick!

Oh.... and for the record, your garage is fine, no more cleaning necessary!!!

In fact, if you could all please make a point to make your garages a little messier so when I browse around on here I don't feel so bad, that would be very much appreciated!

Cheers,
Eric


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## Mirage_Man

*Re: just bought an used knee mill ...*



mdocod said:


> Oh.... and for the record, your garage is fine, no more cleaning necessary!!!
> 
> In fact, if you could all please make a point to make your garages a little messier so when I browse around on here I don't feel so bad, that would be very much appreciated!
> 
> Cheers,
> Eric



LOL, I felt the same way. I've actually spent all this last weekend cleaning out my garage. In fact that's what I'll be doing today as well.


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## 65535

*Re: just bought an used knee mill ...*

Nice score and nice Maxx. Mine's in pieces and it makes me kind of sad, it's pretty much not worth rebuilding because all the stock parts are warped.


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## wquiles

*Re: just bought an used knee mill ...*



65535 said:


> Nice score and nice Maxx. Mine's in pieces and it makes me kind of sad, it's pretty much not worth rebuilding because all the stock parts are warped.



My Maxx still runs, even though the tranny gears (plastic!) are a little bit worn. The problem is the NiMH packs - they are dead AGAIN!. I am tired to buy/replace packs almost yearly - getting to expensive to have fun with the Maxx, so it just sits there in the garage ...

Will


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## wquiles

*Re: just bought an used knee mill ...*



gadget_lover said:


> My unit is from SHARS.com. It is the 12" x 24" x 16" 3 axis Dro digital readout glass linear knee Milling Package --- $640.00 The numbers at Shars refer to the travel, not the table dimensions nor the scale length. The Y axis really has less than 8 inches of travel, so 4 inches of that scale will be forever unused.
> 
> The 24 inch scale for the X axis is just over 30 inches long. I built standoffs to fit the table stop slot in the front of the table. I can still get to the stops and it is easily removable. The reader head is attached to a bracket on the saddle.
> 
> The Y axis is under the right side of the table, with the scale attached to supports attached to the saddle, and the reader attached to a bracket extending from the knee. Again, I have it far enough out and down so that I can reach the Y axis table stops with a socket wrench. It's complicated by the fact that my 1-shot oil pump is located on that side of the knee.
> 
> The Z axis is on the left side of the knee. I wanted to put the scale on the knee, and mount the reader to the column but found that to be problematic. The 16 inch scale is more like 21 inches long and no matter where I mounted it it looks funky. So it goes on the column and the reader on a bracket attached to the knee. Since the column is slanted, I am using a swiveling mount at one end and a standoff at the other to make it parallel to the movement of the knee.
> 
> It's worth it to buy a mill with the DRO installed. Doing it right can be a pain in the neck.
> 
> Daniel



Thanks much Daniel - this helps me a lot in trying to figure out what to get and how to install it 

I am right now comparing notes with Brian as he is also looking for a DRO for his mill as well :devil:

Will


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## precisionworks

> what to get and how to install it


Installation, at least for the Acu-Rite, is pretty straight forward. The mounting instructions for mine start on page 43 of this pdf file:

http://www.acu-rite.com/CMSFiles/File/Product_Manuals/Obsolete/MICROLINEMmanual.pdf

Tolerances aren't bad, you just have to align & adjust the scales to within .010" TIR.


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## wquiles

precisionworks said:


> Installation, at least for the Acu-Rite, is pretty straight forward. The mounting instructions for mine start on page 43 of this pdf file:
> 
> http://www.acu-rite.com/CMSFiles/File/Product_Manuals/Obsolete/MICROLINEMmanual.pdf
> 
> Tolerances aren't bad, you just have to align & adjust the scales to within .010" TIR.



Thanks Barry 

Will


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## gadget_lover

Yeah, the tolerances are not too hard to meet. The problem is deciding exactly where to mount the scales. They are longer than the travel by the length of the reader head. This can make for some awkward mounting.

The bigger concern is deciding what existing features you want to block, remove or preserve. On these mills the Y is only 8 inches or so. That makes mounting a scale on the back (a typical place) somewhat undesirable. There's a set of stops on the front of the table that might be worth using, so bolting it to the front is sub-optimal.

The side of the knee has "stuff" on it. The knee crank housing and the oiler to name just two. Mine also had (note past tense) a collet rack and a rack for a clamp set conveniently on one side.

The actual installation is not too difficult. After all, you have a mill to make any necessary brackets. 

Daniel


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## Aircraft800

Is this your new Tri-Bore tool


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## wquiles

Certainly, it will be ONE of the uses for this new tool (toy?) :devil:

Will


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## wquiles

I have been working on getting the knee mill ready, and although I am not quite done, I got brave enough to at least power it from my 220V outlet. After doing all of the mandatory safety checks, I wired the 220V for the motor and the 120V for the side lamp, and after re-checking everything, I got it running. I am very happy to report that not only the motor runs fine (remember it was not even wired, so I was not sure if the motor ran at all), but it runs quiet and very smooth 

I have most everything cleaned pretty good (I will post some pics soon!), but I need to first adjust all of the gibs and of course check/adjust the "tramming". I found this one place with "instructions" as to how to check for tramming, but the adjustments of course don't work the same place for my knee mill. Any additional tips as to how to proceed?

http://www.duwaynesplace.com/tramming_mill.html

Will


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## precisionworks

You're working to square the spindle to the table, and to have the squareness within +/- .0005" in both X & Y axes. At a minimum, you'll need a dial test indicator (DTI) that's graduated in .0005", and an Indicol holder (or clone) that clamps the DTI to the spindle.

First, unplug the machine - or pull the disconnect if the machine is wired from that. Then, loosen or remove the drive belt(s) ... you have to be able to turn the spindle easily by hand since you'll need to make quite a few rotations with the DTI.

Clamp the Indicol to the spindle, and clamp the DTI to the free end of the Indicol. Set the Indicol arms so that the DTI contact ball swings an arc that covers both the front & the back of the mill table. Pull the quill feed down (gently) until the DTI needle is in the center of the indicator's range. Reach up and slowly hand turn the spindle drive pulley while watching the DTI needle - each time the contact ball drops into a T-slot, you'll have to lift the ball back up to the next section of the table. If the head is perfectly square, which is shown by zero movement of the DTI needle as the indicator is swept in a 360 deg circle, you're all done.

If the needle moves more than .0005" from front to back, or from side to side, you need to make adjustments. The first (and easiest) adjustment is the left-right tilt. Loosen the nuts that lock the tilt, tap the head while watching the DTI, and try to split the total indicated left to right error. Snug the nuts & sweep the DTI, readjust until you get no more than .0005" movement on either the left or right of the spindle.

Front to back tilt is a little more involved. Swing the DTI & note the total front to back difference. Loosen either the two bolts that hold the rear of the column to the base, or the two bolts that hold the front of the column to the base. Insert shim stock that's half the thickness of the total indicated error under each of the two bolts. Snug the bolts, swing the DTI, and fine tune the shims until you have no more than .0005" movement front to back.

Easy


----------



## gadget_lover

Will, you will be happy to hear that the indicol style holder intended for a bridgeport will also fit your mill. I made the mistake of thinking that it should fit the quill. It actually fits on the spindle's nose.

I was happy to find that my mill indicated nicely in the front to back direction, so all I had to adjust was the left-right. This is good, since I was not sure where I would shim it. There is a good chance you will not have to adjust yours.

When tramming left-right, keep in mind that there are bolts back near the motor as well as near the quill. I found some slight shifting as I tightened the bolts near the quill.

Glad that it started right up. I suspect chips are in the near future. 

Daniel


----------



## wquiles

I am not done, but I have been making some progress towards making this knee mill ready for "duty" 

Here are some "before" pictures:























and "after" pictures:




































The top of the table still has some deeper stains, but all of the light rust has been removed. Anyone know how to remove the stains, or should I just leave "as is" for now?

Will


----------



## will

A scotch brite pad and some chrome polish might work. That depends on how deep the rust is.

here are some products from Eastwood

http://www.eastwoodco.com/jump.jsp?itemType=CATEGORY&itemID=380


----------



## gadget_lover

That sure is coming out pretty.


Are you sure it's really used, and not just old?



Daniel


----------



## StrikerDown

gadget_lover said:


> That sure is coming out pretty.
> 
> 
> Are you sure it's really used, and not just old?
> 
> 
> 
> Daniel



I concur. I think Will is using a car polisher and wax on it! :twothumbs

Very purdy!


----------



## brickbat

Super nice job on the clean up. 

How do those lead screws work? Interesting - looks like .125" per turn? I suppose it was derived from a metric design which might have been 2mm, and changing to .125 was a very small tweek in the screw pitch...


----------



## wquiles

will said:


> A scotch brite pad and some chrome polish might work. That depends on how deep the rust is.
> 
> here are some products from Eastwood
> 
> http://www.eastwoodco.com/jump.jsp?itemType=CATEGORY&itemID=380


I already used scotch brite pads to get it to where it is today - with all surface rust removed, but I will have to try something stronger (like what is on that link) to get the deeper stains.





gadget_lover said:


> That sure is coming out pretty.
> 
> 
> Are you sure it's really used, and not just old?
> 
> 
> 
> Daniel


The machine is basically brand new - just really dirty and neglected. A little bit more work (specially the gibs, that are so dirty that I can't get them to adjust properly), and it will be ready for operation.




StrikerDown said:


> I concur. I think Will is using a car polisher and wax on it! :twothumbs
> 
> Very purdy!


Nothing that fancy - all done by hand with paper towells and scotch pads 





brickbat said:


> How do those lead screws work? Interesting - looks like .125" per turn? I suppose it was derived from a metric design which might have been 2mm, and changing to .125 was a very small tweek in the screw pitch...


I don't know - good question. Daniel - since you have the same basic mill - do you know the answer?

Will


----------



## Mirage_Man

Will, screw the stains. It's just gonna get dirty from you using it. Make some freakin chips already .


----------



## gadget_lover

wquiles said:


> I don't know - good question. Daniel - since you have the same basic mill - do you know the answer?
> 
> Will



Mine's a much older model of the same design. Mine is .200 per turn, so there has been a design change or two in the past 30 years.

It would seem that if you change the pitch at all then you might as well change it totally. I'm not aware of any intrinsic value to .125, unless you are used to working in fractions. Then the 1/8 inch would be a natural. 

Daniel


----------



## mdocod

hmmm, 1/8" lead screws, interesting...

I wonder if that isn't part of the reason the machine sat un-used a lot. If the guys working at that shop were used to working on more "normal" 0.050, 0.100, 0.200 etc lead screw machines, then that fractional deviant may have just increased error rate so they retired it all-together. I'm assuming your X2 like most had 1/16" lead screws, so I doubt it'll bother you too much if you've gotten used to that. 

I've come to love the 0.1 lead screw setup so much I don't think I could use a fractional worth a darn at this point 

-Eric


----------



## wquiles

Eric,

It could be, but while adjusting the gibs I found that there was a very small casting defect in the screw hole for adjusting the "Z" axis gibs, and it was completely impossible to adjust it, since the screw could not go into the hole. Basically, from day one, this knee mill was always loose in the Z axis, so they probably put it aside as being "broken" - maybe that explains why the machine has so little signs of actual use. Luckily for me, a dremel tool and about 1 minute of time was all it took to remove the extra casting metal - it now adjusts properly 

Will


----------



## StrikerDown

So, how does it cut?


----------



## wquiles

StrikerDown said:


> So, how does it cut?



Don't know yet - I ran out of time yesterday after finishing the adjustments. I might have time today to bolt my new Kurt vise and give it a try 

Will


----------



## Clark

That is about the same size and design as my Delta *Rockwell* 21-100 vertical mill.

I took off the crank handle and put on a smaller wheel handle.

I am only a 180 pound 56 year old male that can about 1 chin up and 10 push ups, but I can make the knee go up and down much faster with a smaller radius on the crank.

My brother has a Clausing 8520 in the same class, but he leaves the crank on, like he is running a machine shop museum and want the mill to be stock.

It seems obvious to me that they made little mills look like the big mills that needed a long crank handle.
But the small mills with lighter knees are better off with a 5 or 6 inch wheel.


----------



## wquiles

Clark said:


> That is about the same size and design as my Delta *Rockwell* 21-100 vertical mill.
> 
> I took off the crank handle and put on a smaller wheel handle.
> 
> I am only a 180 pound 56 year old male that can about 1 chin up and 10 push ups, but I can make the knee go up and down much faster with a smaller radius on the crank.
> 
> My brother has a Clausing 8520 in the same class, but he leaves the crank on, like he is running a machine shop museum and want the mill to be stock.
> 
> It seems obvious to me that they made little mills look like the big mills that needed a long crank handle.
> But the small mills with lighter knees are better off with a 5 or 6 inch wheel.



Do you remember what exact wheel handle did you get? How did you adapt it to the crank mechanism?

Will


----------



## wquiles

This was the hole in the Z axis that had a casting defect:






and this is the fixed hole (used my dremel tool):






Once I adjusted everything, and did a last minute cleaning, it looked like this:

















"Standard" belts:











Fenner Power Twist Plus belts:











I then mounted my Kurt vise:
















And finally started to cut some chips 







I am shock to say that the cutting marks "seem" to indicate that the mill is probably "very" close to perfect alignment from left to right, since I am getting two sets of marks as the end mill goes through the work. Not bad for a mill that has not yet been trammed 
















Once I get my Indicol holder, I will use it to check how far off the mill is.

Will


----------



## gadget_lover

Looking Good!

Examining the newer pictures shows the advances in the last 30 years. For example, the nearly horizontal central pillar will make it easier to mount a DRO. My pillar is gracefully tapered. 

Just for fun, try running a pass with the end mill again, only crank the table very, very slow. Like an inch or two per minute. The finish is remarkable. That's why I will need a power feed next. 

Dan


----------



## wquiles

gadget_lover said:


> Looking Good!
> 
> Examining the newer pictures shows the advances in the last 30 years. For example, the nearly horizontal central pillar will make it easier to mount a DRO. My pillar is gracefully tapered.
> 
> Just for fun, try running a pass with the end mill again, only crank the table very, very slow. Like an inch or two per minute. The finish is remarkable. That's why I will need a power feed next.
> 
> Dan



When was your knee mill manufactured? Mine was manufactured on 1998 - 7 => which I guess it means July '98.

Will


----------



## gadget_lover

Mine was made in Oct of 79 (date=79-10). The company that made it is still around. Standard Machinery of Taiwan. 

The major improvements that are visible on yours:

Better motor, since yours is sealed and mine is open at the bottom.
Nicer handles.
Cleaner (straighter) lines in the castings
Straight Pillar.
The pockets at the ends of the table slots are more open on yours.
The base has a "toe hole" to insert a jack for tilting / raising the unit.

Advantage of the older design;

No openings in the base, so might be more rigid.
The one shot oiler is on the right, so it does not block access to the Z axis locks. 
Mine has two Z axis locks, two Y and 1 (?) X.

I gotta post some pictures sooner or later.

Daniel


----------



## wquiles

gadget_lover said:


> Mine was made in Oct of 79 (date=79-10). The company that made it is still around. Standard Machinery of Taiwan.
> 
> The major improvements that are visible on yours:
> 
> Better motor, since yours is sealed and mine is open at the bottom.
> Nicer handles.
> Cleaner (straighter) lines in the castings
> Straight Pillar.
> The pockets at the ends of the table slots are more open on yours.
> The base has a "toe hole" to insert a jack for tilting / raising the unit.
> 
> Advantage of the older design;
> 
> No openings in the base, so might be more rigid.
> The one shot oiler is on the right, so it does not block access to the Z axis locks.
> Mine has two Z axis locks, two Y and 1 (?) X.
> 
> I gotta post some pictures sooner or later.
> 
> Daniel



Wow !!! - Almost 30 years ago, and still working nice 

Yes, I would love to see more pictures of your mill. It is funny how they changed the # of locks for each axis: I have 1x for the Z, 1x for the Y, and 2x for the X.

Will


----------



## precisionworks

> the cutting marks "seem" to indicate that the mill is probably "very" close to perfect alignment from left to right, since I am getting two sets of marks as the end mill goes through


Double cutting is a sure sign that the head is in tram left-to-right. Try feeding front to back & see if the end mill still double cuts ... of course, that's the harder one to adjust out


----------



## gadget_lover

wquiles said:


> Wow !!! - Almost 30 years ago, and still working nice
> 
> Yes, I would love to see more pictures of your mill. It is funny how they changed the # of locks for each axis: I have 1x for the Z, 1x for the Y, and 2x for the X.
> 
> Will



Sorry. I'm forever getting things backwards. The X has two locks and the Y has only one. The Z still has two.


----------



## wquiles

precisionworks said:


> Double cutting is a sure sign that the head is in tram left-to-right. Try feeding front to back & see if the end mill still double cuts ... of course, that's the harder one to adjust out



Well, I must have done something good at some point, and this knee mill is my reward, because I am also getting double cutting in the Y direction 













This is a closeup of the one cutting in the X direction I did earlier today:







How lucky can I get? :devil:

Will


----------



## Clark

wquiles said:


> Do you remember what exact wheel handle did you get? How did you adapt it to the crank mechanism?
> 
> Will




http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INPDFF?PMPAGE=742&PARTPG=INLMK3&PMITEM=990-3293

http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INPDFF?PMPAGE=743&PMCTLG=00

You put the hub of the hand wheel in the chuck of your lathe.
You then drill it out to the shaft size of the mill.

There is not easy simple way to make a key slot. Hack and and file are the labor intensive way. Using the mill quill like a mortise chopper, with the mill motor turned off is another. A broach is the professional way, but not worth it for one wheel that does not need to be that strong.

If you are left handed, consider putting the wheel on the left end of the table on the knee shaft and putting the new wheel on the left end of the mill table.

Often I have to take a wheel off the end of the mill table to clear that long length of a gun barrel or gun stock. So I would put a tiny wheel on one end of table.


----------



## precisionworks

> broach is the professional way


+1

But that's gonna be expensive ... postage both ways should just about cover the cost:thumbsup:


----------



## wquiles

This weekend I added an ON/OFF dual-pole 60A switch to the 220V 30A outlet, and added a second outlet in parallel, so that I don't have to switch from the lathe to the mill. Although I have enough current to operate both the mill and the lathe at the same time, since it is just one of me in my "shop", only one tool will be used at any given time. Best thing is that while I am traveling I can put a small padlock at the switch:











Will


----------



## wquiles

Tonight, my first real project with the knee mill: to take a 3/4" Kennametal Top Notch tool holder and modify it to fit into my BXA 5/8" tool holders for the lathe:
















and thanks to a tip from Barry, I used Dicropan to "blue" the exposed steel:






Finished product:






You guys were right, even with the steel tool post, it is a piece of cake to do milling in this machine compared to the X2 that I had earlier 

Will


----------



## precisionworks

Nice job

Your radius corner end mill worked well. Is it solid carbide? What rpm did you run, and how much DOC per pass?



> I used Dicropan to "blue" the exposed steel


It's the best cold blue that I've ever tried. Brownells really believes in superb customer service, satisfaction guaranteed, and they have great tech support for all the products they carry.


----------



## StrikerDown

wquiles said:


> This weekend I added an ON/OFF dual-pole 60A switch to the 220V 30A outlet, and added a second outlet in parallel, so that I don't have to switch from the lathe to the mill. Although I have enough current to operate both the mill and the lathe at the same time, since it is just one of me in my "shop", only one tool will be used at any given time. Best thing is that while I am traveling I can put a small padlock at the switch:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Will


 
The wires all in the wall... Looking good and the locking disconnect is a plus if you need to keep the kids out of the machining business!

The work shop is coming along real nice Will. :thumbsup:


----------



## wquiles

precisionworks said:


> Nice job
> 
> Your radius corner end mill worked well. Is it solid carbide? What rpm did you run, and how much DOC per pass?
> 
> It's the best cold blue that I've ever tried. Brownells really believes in superb customer service, satisfaction guaranteed, and they have great tech support for all the products they carry.



I was taking about 0.030" per pass, at about 1000rpm. I bought it at the local surplus store a while back so I don't remember well, but I think it is a resharpened HSS bit (3/4" shank - I use my ER40 collet system to hold them).





StrikerDown said:


> The wires all in the wall... Looking good and the locking disconnect is a plus if you need to keep the kids out of the machining business!
> 
> The work shop is coming along real nice Will. :thumbsup:


Yes, all of the cables are behind the wall. It took longer to do, but it is safe and looks "semi-professional" 

Yes, keeping my two young kids away from the 220V outlet was a very strong motivator 

All I need to add now is an external RED bulb so that I can have a visual indicator that the switch is ON or OFF. Right now, I would have to open the cover to know the switch position.

Will


----------



## precisionworks

> All I need to add now is an external RED bulb so that I can have a visual indicator


Quite a few ways to do that ... but a tower stack light is the nicest method, as you can have one, two or three indicator colors:

http://www.factorymation.com/s.nl/sc.2/category.11246/.f


----------



## wquiles

Maybe not the most elegant method, but here is how I did the RED light indicator:

Power OFF:






Power ON:






Will


----------



## Anglepoise

Great idea especially when family members have access to 'the shop'.


----------



## precisionworks

I need to do something like that on my VFD's ... which sometimes get left on for a few days because I forgot to hit the disconnect. But it has to 
be a LED


----------



## wquiles

precisionworks said:


> I need to do something like that on my VFD's ... which sometimes get left on for a few days because I forgot to hit the disconnect. But it has to
> be a LED



This one is a simple 12V incandescent lamp (just 200mA). I just have a very small 120VAC to 12VAC transformer (max. of 300mA) inside the DoubleD switch box, which then outputs the 12VAC directly to the lamp. The way I wired it, and with the box I used behind the drywall, it should be really easy to do a simple upgrade to an LED-based indicator in the future 

Will


----------



## precisionworks

This place has some interesting LED's:

http://www.superbrightleds.com/cgi-bin/store/commerce.cgi?product=MR16


----------



## wquiles

On a recent thread in one of the email groups that I belong to there was a link (which I can't find right now!) showing a guy using thin neoprene to cover the ways on the lathe and the top of the milling table to prevent damage and protect from debris and keep things clean. Since I feel that the ruber/neoprene cover for debris in my knee mill is too narrow and allows debris to accumulate on the Z and Y ways, I decided to take advantage of free shipping from Enco and got me some 1/8" material, 36" wide:






Here is the factory (too narrow) cover:











and here I am making a wider one, using the natural curve from the material to my advantage - note now it now "hangs" down:
















Since it is wider in the bottom, I am using a hard-drive super magnet to keep it in place:
















I will be putting two additional pieces (like shown here) to the sides of the Kurt vise, but this time with the material curving up to prevent parts from rolling off, or from falling in the "T" slots. In these photos I am using the old piece (cut in half) but I will be putting new material as this older material has some embedded metal debris in it !!!






I will also be cutting some to put on the ways on my lathe, underneath the chuck (held also with powerful magnets). That is the next small project in the list


----------



## 65535

Nice T slot covers. I commend your effort but feel sorry for the fact that it is a futile attempt. There is no beating the chip.


----------



## bluwolf

Will,

Someone on one of the other groups also mentioned using black non-slip runner that they found in the carpet section of Home Depot. I don't remember any pics. So I was gonna go have a look at it this weekend. How much was it for the stuff from Enco?

I also made T-slot covers out of wood. Nothing fancy, just hardwood strips that fit the T-slots and 1/4" plywood for tops. I also cut the plywood around the curves of the vice where it bolts down to the table. So far they seem to work well. I also feel better when I set tools down on them instead of the table. In fact it's so handy I think I'm going to re-make them with lips so they act as trays.

Mike


----------



## wquiles

65535 said:


> There is no beating the chip.



I understand what you mean. It is like with the Borg - "resistance is futile!" 





bluwolf said:


> How much was it for the stuff from Enco?


I got a piece of 7' long by 36" wide of 1/8" material for like $26-27 (with free shipping and min purchase of $25).


----------



## KC2IXE

that nice shiney Kurt makes me jellious. Mine is a crusty, stained, paint free 4" - old enough it doesn't have the metal label, but engraved on the moving jaw


----------



## StrikerDown

Resistance is futile, is absolutely correct!! The accordion guard on my RF hangs out a couple inches on each side of the Y ways and the stuff still gets in there. It goes every where... even found some in my underwear! :devil:


----------



## StrikerDown

KC2IXE said:


> that nice shiney Kurt makes me jellious. Mine is a crusty, stained, paint free 4" - old enough it doesn't have the metal label, but engraved on the moving jaw



KC2IXE, This is for your eyes only!



StrikerDown said:


> OMG... This is a beast... A Beautiful Beast!
> 
> New In Box was right on:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Left:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Right:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ChiHandle from 5", a little shorter and about half the weight. The vice has 25-26 pounds on the import! Big and heavy!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Even the bottom is gorgeous... USA!!!:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It even seems to tram easier than the ChiVise. The jaw surface is so smooth the needle barely moves as the table slides to the other side, unlike the ChiVice where the needle would bounce like it was playing a record!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> From side to side, how much is this off, .00002 or so! Straight across the jaw surface, no low or high spots like the... well, you know.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I am real happy with this vice, there is no comparison to the import, this is a jewel. Not bad at $277.xx delivered, all the way from Georga!
> 
> The seller offers these by the pallet full or by the each and occasionally they auction them, an erlier one that I missed by a couple minutes went for something like $187.xx
> 
> If I get any heavier accessories I will need a gantry!
> 
> YaHoo, there be chips flying tomorrow! :devil:
> 
> Now to find a new home for the 5"er. I can't think of a real good reason to keep it, except maybe cause it is smaller and lighter to move around and really does a decent job.
> 
> Edit:
> 
> Looking at the bottom Pic, It just occured to me that it didn't come with the T slot keys like the import vice came with, I wonder if it should have come with the KURT?


----------



## KC2IXE

Ray,
Saw it the first time you posted - sigh, like I said. I still think a 6" is a tad too large for my mill, but then again, it probably isn't. 

Interestingly, the 4" costs a LOT more than a 6", and acessories ar MUCH more expensive - everyone stocks stuff for the 6" and 8", but not the 4"


----------



## StrikerDown

Hehehe

Sorry, I just couldn't resist!

Some times I wish I had a 4"... oh wait I do, but it is a piece of crapppp!


----------



## precisionworks

> It just occured to me that it didn't come with the T slot keys


The mounting slots are precision machined & will usually get the vise within .005" just by pushing the vise either forward or backward until it stops. Tramming a new Kurt is a one minute operation, even on a bad day.



> Now to find a new home for the 5"er.


My 4" milling vise went to one of my two drill presses. A mill vise on a DP is really handy.


----------



## wquiles

OK, so I started work on my new Quill DRO!

As I noted in another thread, I picked up this one from Shars since I wanted the bracket/hardware:
http://www.shars.com/products/view/2413/Dro_Quill_kit_for_quotzquot_axis_with_6quot_travel


Here is how things look in the mill before I started:











Remove the Z wheel for better access:






Remove the screw for the stops:











Test fit the new DRO, which of course is too long by close to 2 inches:





















So using my trusty 4x6 bandsaw I "fixed" the length problem:






Of course that means that I also have to trim the caliper, which is stainless hardened steel, so I decided to trim the part that does not have a scale, so that I can preserved the scale for a good visual aid:






Thanks to Barry's advice I got a Metabo 4 1/2" angle grinder which made it easy and pleasant to cut the steel bar:






Now the length is perfect:






I had to trim a little bit the edge here to allow the display to move freely, which I then coated for protection:











After drilling/tapping 2x 6mm screws, I have a solid platform in place. Since the two bracket halfs meet in the middle, only two screws are needed as they keep each other from moving/rotating:






By the way, the total travel is not 4" inches, but actually something like 3.7" - 3.8". I will know for sure once I get it installed. Only left to do is to attach the back of the display to the block that moves with the quill - maybe tonight ...

Will


----------



## gadget_lover

Nice setup there Will. It looks much nicer than mine. 

Are you going to reinstall the threaded rods and stop-nuts? It looks like you have room there to do it.

A lesson I learned with mine: Make sure you have have clearance at the top and bottom before you fasten it to the block that moves with the quill. I made my brackets adjustable (oval mounting holes) and accidentally set it too high. When I released the quill lock the DRO smacked into the top bracket and broke one of the screws loose. 

What I learned from yours... There IS a flat spot suitable for mounting the bracket. It's to the left of the quill, behind the wheel. Same place as mine. For some reason I never spotted it on mine, despite looking at it a dozen times when figuring out where to mount the darn thing. I guess my old glasses were worse than I thought.

Looking Good Will!

Daniel


----------



## wquiles

Daniel,

For now, I am not planning on re-using the screw/stops. Never used them, and I don't think I ever will (famous last words!).

I started by removing this block, which was binding at the very bottom of the channel - after careful filling on the column side (it was not milled all the way properly at the bottom) I was able to get the block to move properly, and that was "before" I started the installation:
















Yup, the clearance issues were tricky. I must have tried like 10+ times, mounting, adjusting, removing, and moving up and down looking for areas where it was touching or binding. I spend at least a couple hours last night filling and bending, and adjusting until I had minimal/no binding through the whole movement (3.737" inches to be exact):






I also had to adjust the length of the locking arm since it touched the display module - a couple of washers solved that problem:






It is not pretty, but here is the back, with the spacer Al block and "L" bracket that I used:






In the end I got it all installed and it repeats within the 1/2 mill on the display (the small 5 on the display) - not bad!:






I then zeroed the unit, and compared it to the built in dial on the wheel - man, the wheel is horrible! It was off about a mill and a half for every 10 mills. No wonder when I used it before I could not get good even finishes on multiple pases!

Next is the VFD. I already have the new Baldor 3HP, 3PH motor, and I will be ordering the actual NEMA4 VFD controller this week. I need to order a few other pieces (E-switch, pot for speed, small boxes, etc.), but I will either have to buy or make an arm to mount the VFD controller - it would be great if I can buy something like the one used by the SINO DRO!

Will


----------



## precisionworks

> had to adjust the length of the locking arm since it touched the display module - a couple of washers solved that problem


You may want to make a slightly longer shaft for the locking arm, which shouldn't require too much work - turn OD, drill & tap, install cross handle. If you do that, you can put a sliding T-handle at the end.



> the whole movement (3.737" inches


One area where the large mill-drill excels is that is has 5.00" of quill travel. In this regard, size does matter :nana:


----------



## wquiles

precisionworks said:


> You may want to make a slightly longer shaft for the locking arm, which shouldn't require too much work - turn OD, drill & tap, install cross handle. If you do that, you can put a sliding T-handle at the end.


Great idea - thanks 




precisionworks said:


> One area where the large mill-drill excels is that is has 5.00" of quill travel. In this regard, size does matter :nana:


That is OK, my small one gets the job done :devil:


----------



## gadget_lover

precisionworks said:


> One area where the large mill-drill excels is that is has 5.00" of quill travel. In this regard, size does matter :nana:



That's what she.... Nevermind.

I'll settle for the 3.5 Z in the quill and another 15 in the knee. 

Wait. That sounds bad too. 

Daniel


----------



## precisionworks

> and another 15" in the knee.


If you're being picky, that would be 15" in the W axis :nana:

The best thing about a knee mill is ... ... ... the knee


----------



## StrikerDown

Getting a knee in the Z... sounds painful

Looking real good there Will.


----------



## wquiles

More changes coming - the VFD controller has been shipped. Soon this dream of the VFD on my knee mill will be a reality


----------



## precisionworks

> dream of the VFD on my knee mill will be a reality


One area that you'll need to address is that of a motor mounting plate. There's a very small chance that the bolt hole pattern of the new motor will match that of the old motor, as the two are built on different NEMA frames:






The motor on the left is the popular Baldor M3611T (three of those in my shop). To mount that motor in place of the smaller NEMA56 frame requires a transition plate:






That plate is 1/2" thick steel, sheared at a nearby fab shop, drilled & tapped for both the old motor mounting holes as well as the new ones. The sheave is shop built, weighs about ten pounds, and serves as a small flywheel.


----------



## wquiles

precisionworks said:


> One area that you'll need to address is that of a motor mounting plate. There's a very small chance that the bolt hole pattern of the new motor will match that of the old motor, as the two are built on different NEMA frames:
> 
> The motor on the left is the popular Baldor M3611T (three of those in my shop). To mount that motor in place of the smaller NEMA56 frame requires a transition plate:
> 
> That plate is 1/2" thick steel, sheared at a nearby fab shop, drilled & tapped for both the old motor mounting holes as well as the new ones. The sheave is shop built, weighs about ten pounds, and serves as a small flywheel.



Well, that motor mounting might be a problem. I guess I will cross that bridge when I get there 


By the way, the NEMA 4 VFD controller and the E-switches arrived today :thumbsup:


----------



## precisionworks

> that motor mounting might be a problem. I guess I will cross that bridge when I get there


The new Baldor M3611T is built on a NEMA 182T frame. If your existing motor is also 182T, the new motor will bolt right up without any need for a transition plate. I've found that most "factory" motors that are taken off are either 145T or 56H, and the bolt hole spacing is different.

It isn't hard to work around this, using a piece of steel plate that's a little larger than the new motor (see last photo in my previous post). You'll need at least 1/2" thick if you want to drill & tap, but can use 1/4" thick if you can through bolt with nuts and lockwashers.

Be sure to Dykem the plate & mark out your centerlines. Then dial off the distances to the holes and drill & tap - each hole will be spot on. You want to make the transition plate BEFORE removing the old motor from the mill :nana:

http://www.electricmotorwarehouse.com/PDF/NEMA.pdf


----------



## wquiles

Barry,

For my VFD conversion, on the small control panel I am planning an ON/OFF switch and a POT for the speed. Are you planning on installing a FRW/REV switch, or just always run the mill on Forward?

Since the VFD does not have a proper ON/OFF switch, I will also be installing a heavy duty DPST ON/OFF to cut power to two hot wires from the 220V single phase that go into the VFD, along with RED LAMP indicators for when power is applied to the VFD. Are you implementing something similar?

Will


----------



## precisionworks

> I will also be installing a heavy duty DPST ON/OFF to cut power to two hot wires from the 220V single phase that go into the VFD, along with RED LAMP indicators for when power is applied to the VFD. Are you implementing something similar?


On the three prior installations a Square D disconnect was used, and I just bought another for the mill project. For $17 (Ace Hardware) you get a switch rated at 60 amps, 240 volts.














I don't know of a larger (higher amp) rated switch for less money :twothumbs


----------



## wquiles

Cool - good tip on the power cutoff stuff.

What about the FW/RV switch - are you adding one to change direction on the mill?

Will


----------



## wquiles

The TV mount that I will use to mount the VFD controller arrived today :naughty:


----------



## precisionworks

> What about the FW/RV switch - are you adding one to change direction on the mill?


On most machine tools, including my Enco mill/drill, there is already a Fwd/Off/Rev switch that is now wired directly to the motor. After running the mill for a number of years with this switch, my hands instinctively know where it's located and how it works. This switch will continue to provide Fwd/Off/Rev control by disconnecting it from the motor & reconnecting it to the control terminals on the VFD. It is clean, simple, and costs nothing but six feet of 4-conductor wire.

The same can be done with the existing switch on a lathe, saw, or grinder. You could add your own design if you feel that would better suit your needs, and that might be a good idea on a machine that just landed in your shop ... like your mill. You haven't yet had time to grab the factory switch over & over & over, so you don't have to unlearn how it works.


----------



## wquiles

Barry,

Gotcha. My mill came with a pure ON/OFF switch (which is just opening and closing the 3 wires to the motor - the two hots and the earth ground) so there was never a factory way to possible reverse direction on my mill. Since I don't have a forward/reverse switch, I will add one as part of my VFD conversion, but I will implement the ON/OFF and the FRW/RV switch separately as I don't like to have a single switch for both turning FRW/OFF/RV 

Will


----------



## precisionworks

> I will implement the ON/OFF and the FRW/RV switch separately



Will,

Before you do that, look at the way most mills are controlled. Bridgeport, the best known example of the modern knee mill, has used essentially the same Fwd/Off/Rev switch for decades - which makes it easy to walk into any machine shop in the world & start making parts on a Bpt.

One reason that a three function switch works well on a mill is that you can keep the (typically) left hand on the switch & use the right hand for feeding X, Y, Z, or W. When things go wrong on a mill, having a hand on the switch allows instant reverse if necessary - which can be nice in power tapping. Also, when a 1" twist drill hangs up, instant stop or instant reverse can save expensive tooling & parts.

You may prefer two separate switches, but there are many (if not most) mills & lathes that have one switch for these three functions.


----------



## wquiles

Barry,

Do you have a photo of the specific 3-way switch used in the Bridgeport?

Will


----------



## G1K

I'll put up a pic on a 3 position drum switch typical to what B-port uses. Give me about an hour so I can get out to the shop.

I had to purchase a new one for my mill, but the supplier had a minimum order so I wound up with one extra.

R


----------



## precisionworks

> so I wound up with one extra.



There's a guy doing a VFD conversion who needs that extra switch


----------



## G1K

Wiring diagram for a motor reversing cam swithc





Knob and face plate





Switch body










and the switch on the mill





If you need any specifics let me know.

Ryan


----------



## wquiles

Thanks much for the pictures. I also found this similar style but vertical instead of horizontal:
http://www.grainger.com/1/1/75812-dayton-2x440-switch-drum-reversing-4-50-4-00-2-25-maintained.html

Good thing is that since it is only providing a logic input to the VDF, there is no high current rating required - almost any switch will do.

The real challenge is where to install such a switch. This is how my mill came from the factory - not much room for a switch that big:





















I really want to install something in the same place as the factory ON/OFF switch since that is the most accessible while the mill is running. Ideas/suggestions?

Will


----------



## precisionworks

The switch shown in Ryan's photos would mount perfectly in place of the on/off switch on the mill. The on/off function will be handled by a (wall mounted?) disconnect, and the Fwd/Off/Rev switch will mount in a standard box on the front of the mill - just where the on/off switch is now.

Small wires, like 4-conductor telephone cord, run from the switch to the VFD.


----------



## wquiles

precisionworks said:


> The switch shown in Ryan's photos would mount perfectly in place of the on/off switch on the mill. The on/off function will be handled by a (wall mounted?) disconnect, and the Fwd/Off/Rev switch will mount in a standard box on the front of the mill - just where the on/off switch is now.
> 
> Small wires, like 4-conductor telephone cord, run from the switch to the VFD.



Based on Ryan's photos, wouldn't the switch stick out like 4-5 inches? Would that be stable/solid?


----------



## precisionworks

> wouldn't the switch stick out like 4-5 inches?



Ryan's cam switch is made by C3Controls, although many other companies make the same design with the same mounting configuration. All you need is a box with a standard 22.5mm (7/8") mounting hole. The front plate is just 48mm x 48mm, and overall length from back of switch to mounting plate is 82mm:

https://www.c3controls.com/cms/pdf/Cam Switches - Series CS.pdf

https://www.c3controls.com/cam-switches.cfm

Mouser, Allied, Newark, etc., all carry NEMA rated enclosures. This one is 8"x8"x4"

http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail...=sGAEpiMZZMsrGrAVj6eTveSYJQndvkYpBLdokhGZ7AQ=


----------



## gadget_lover

You can get them from square D too. Mine is mounted on an ugly piece of strap steel, but it does work.

A side benefit (probably unplanned) to mounting it there is the pully access lid will not stay open if the lever is to the right. 











Daniel


----------



## precisionworks

Very clean install, Daniel. Good idea to incorporate the flex conduit fitting into the same bracket. Your mounting puts the switch where Bridgeport & most other mills & mill/drills have a factory switch.

The Square D drum switch is built like a tank, but costs $150 new. The Dayton version, while not as heavy duty, is a popular eBay item for 1/4 the cost.

http://shop.ebay.com/i.html?_kw=drum&_kw=switch&_ckw=d&_trksid=p3286.m104.l1200


----------



## wquiles

Barry, Ryan, Daniel - thanks much for the feedback and pictures. Much appreciated 

After seeing all of these pictures, now I understand the value of the Frw / Off / Rv switch, so I will go ahead and install one. I think the way Daniel has his switch would work just as good in my setup (same mill after all!), but Ray's horizontal switch might be easier to install/wire closer to the head.

Ryan, are you keeping that extra one for a spare, or it is "available"? Can you please PM me with details? Thanks 

Will


----------



## wquiles

Thanks much Ryan 

By the way, which/what metal enclosure did you use for your switch?

Will


----------



## wquiles

precisionworks said:


> On the three prior installations a Square D disconnect was used, and I just bought another for the mill project. For $17 (Ace Hardware) you get a switch rated at 60 amps, 240 volts.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I don't know of a larger (higher amp) rated switch for less money :twothumbs



Barry - I am installing a similar switch on my mill VFD conversion. What is the correct amperage breaker for the 3HP and 5HP VFD?

Will


----------



## wquiles

G1K said:


> Wiring diagram for a motor reversing cam swithc
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Knob and face plate
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Switch body
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> and the switch on the mill
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If you need any specifics let me know.
> 
> Ryan



Switch received in Texas - thanks much Ryan 

Will


----------



## precisionworks

> correct amperage breaker


Circuit breakers and fuses protect conductors only - they provide no protection for the drive. The drive is a UL Listed motor overcurrent protection device so the drive is used in place of a motor starter with correctly sized heaters, or a similar solid state motor starter.

If AWG#12 wire is run from the breaker panel to the VFD, the correct breaker is 20 amps. If AWG#10 wire is run, the breaker needs to be 30 amps.

Under full load at 240 volts, a 3 hp motor will draw about 15 amps. Because of the soft start feature of the VFD - meaning no large inrush current at start - a 20 amp circuit is adequate. For the 5 hp, a 30 amp circuit is needed.


----------



## wquiles

precisionworks said:


> Circuit breakers and fuses protect conductors only - they provide no protection for the drive. The drive is a UL Listed motor overcurrent protection device so the drive is used in place of a motor starter with correctly sized heaters, or a similar solid state motor starter.
> 
> If AWG#12 wire is run from the breaker panel to the VFD, the correct breaker is 20 amps. If AWG#10 wire is run, the breaker needs to be 30 amps.
> 
> Under full load at 240 volts, a 3 hp motor will draw about 15 amps. Because of the soft start feature of the VFD - meaning no large inrush current at start - a 20 amp circuit is adequate. For the 5 hp, a 30 amp circuit is needed.



Gotcha. I will stick with the 20Amp for the 3HP motor that I will be using - thanks!


----------



## G1K

wquiles said:


> Thanks much Ryan
> 
> By the way, which/what metal enclosure did you use for your switch?
> 
> Will



I \t came with the mill and has no id on it. I think it's the same as found on the jet mills, they have a replacement parts list on lined. I'll see if I can get any info.



wquiles said:


> Switch received in Texas - thanks much Ryan
> 
> Will



No problem, glad you could use it.

Ryan


----------



## wquiles

G1K said:


> I \t came with the mill and has no id on it. I think it's the same as found on the jet mills, they have a replacement parts list on lined. I'll see if I can get any info.



Ryan,

No worries. I was able to find a larger box that will house the new switch and the speed POT. I will be bolting the metal box to the left side of the head where it will be accessible but not get in the way :thumbsup:

Thanks again,
Will


----------



## wquiles

*Re: just bought an used knee mill ...*



gadget_lover said:


> My unit is from SHARS.com. It is the 12" x 24" x 16" 3 axis Dro digital readout glass linear knee Milling Package --- $640.00 The numbers at Shars refer to the travel, not the table dimensions nor the scale length. The Y axis really has less than 8 inches of travel, so 4 inches of that scale will be forever unused.
> 
> The 24 inch scale for the X axis is just over 30 inches long. I built standoffs to fit the table stop slot in the front of the table. I can still get to the stops and it is easily removable. The reader head is attached to a bracket on the saddle.
> 
> The Y axis is under the right side of the table, with the scale attached to supports attached to the saddle, and the reader attached to a bracket extending from the knee. Again, I have it far enough out and down so that I can reach the Y axis table stops with a socket wrench. It's complicated by the fact that my 1-shot oil pump is located on that side of the knee.
> 
> The Z axis is on the left side of the knee. I wanted to put the scale on the knee, and mount the reader to the column but found that to be problematic. The 16 inch scale is more like 21 inches long and no matter where I mounted it it looks funky. So it goes on the column and the reader on a bracket attached to the knee. Since the column is slanted, I am using a swiveling mount at one end and a standoff at the other to make it parallel to the movement of the knee.
> 
> It's worth it to buy a mill with the DRO installed. Doing it right can be a pain in the neck.
> 
> Daniel




Daniel,

I am about to pull the trigger as soon as you can confirm - is this the right DRO for our mill?

http://www.shars.com/products/view/2449/12quot_x_24quot_x_16quot_3_axis_Dro_digital_readout_glass_linear_knee_Milling_Package

Will


----------



## gadget_lover

*Re: just bought an used knee mill ...*

That is the one I have. 

Not sure how I ever got by with just little black marks on dials.

It would be nice if they would sell the 9 inch travel model from one of the other kits in place of the 12 inch one, but it looked like they import them from china in these configurations.

There is a $59 r232 option available. I wish I'd ordered that since it could make for some interesting interaction with a computer.

Daniel

The


----------



## wquiles

*Re: just bought an used knee mill ...*



gadget_lover said:


> That is the one I have.
> 
> Not sure how I ever got by with just little black marks on dials.
> 
> It would be nice if they would sell the 9 inch travel model from one of the other kits in place of the 12 inch one, but it looked like they import them from china in these configurations.
> 
> There is a $59 r232 option available. I wish I'd ordered that since it could make for some interesting interaction with a computer.



Daniel,

Well, thanks to your feedback/advice, I went ahead and placed a special order of the DRO with the built-in RS-232 serial port. Of course, they have to special order it from China, so I am looking at 2-4 weeks extra delay, but it will be worth it - who knows, this "could" become a poor mans' CNC setup some day :devil:

Will


----------



## gadget_lover

*Re: just bought an used knee mill ...*

I had the same thought. 

Dead reconning is OK for most things, but a closed loop really makes much more sense.

Then there's the idea of an app that will ping as I get closer to 'zero' so I can watch the part instead of the display. 

Daniel


----------



## wquiles

Daniel,

Question: The knee mill package comes with a 16" scale for the "Z", but from this photo of my mill, the Z clearly has more than 16" of travel:







Looks like I could almost use a 24" scale in there, right? Or am I looking at this wrong?

Will


----------



## wquiles

Daniel,

In fact, if this is the same unit, the web site mentions 20" travel:
Busy Bee B048 Knee-Mill

Looks like I need to change my order and instead of the 16" scale I need to get the 20" scale for the Z direction.

Here is an interesting site that has all of these "small" knee mills:
http://bridgeport.askmisterscience.com/smallmills.htm

Will


----------



## gadget_lover

It's well worthwhile to measure the actual travel. I find my table hits the spindle at about 13 inches of travel. If I have a tool in there, there's even less, 

They made MANY variations on the basic design. Believe it or not, mine is not represented on that web page, even though there are several very, very similar to it.

Daniel


----------



## wquiles

gadget_lover said:


> It's well worthwhile to measure the actual travel. I find my table hits the spindle at about 13 inches of travel. If I have a tool in there, there's even less,
> 
> They made MANY variations on the basic design. Believe it or not, mine is not represented on that web page, even though there are several very, very similar to it.
> 
> Daniel



I hear you - lots of variations. I did a quick measurement and I need around 20" of travel on the Z, so I called Shars and changed my order to from 12x24x16 to 12x24x20, and of course still getting the RS232 option. It should be here in about 2-3 weeks.

Will


----------



## wquiles

OK, so I started doing the VFD conversion on my knee mill. It is going to take a while, so these are the initial photos ...


This is how it looks before I get started:






Then I start the take parts off:











Disconnect the original motor:






And note that the motor is actually sitting lower than it has to be, in order for the belts to be aligned/level. Per the mill instructions, that lower belt position on the motor pulley has to be aligned with the bottom of the intermediary pulley - not even close:











Here is the motor and the swing-out plate:











Here on the left is the new Baldor 3PH, 3HP motor:






Since I have to buy a steel plate to mount the motor and today is Sunday and everything is closed, I started working on the electric "stuff". First, I made an adapter plate to mount the VFD controller to the swing out arm:
















Here is with the arm in place:






Here I mounted the plate to the mill - angled slightly so that the display is slightly facing up towards me, the operator:






A couple of shots showing the range in motion/position:






















So I also started on the AC side - here are the high current connections on the VFD controller:






So I used a new cable from the AC outlet to the VFD (the one on the left) - that box on the top right (3rd photo) is the main 220V kill switch:
















But I am not connecting the VFD controller to the AC directly - I am using a high current switch (20 Amps at the moment), to have a "local" ON/OFF switch for the mill. The enclosure is outdoor, rain-rated:





















So then I bring the switched 220V to the VFD:






And after verifying that I had no shorts, and no hot voltage levels where I shouldn't, I did a quick test and turned the VFD ON - it works 






I will be wiring the FRW/OFF/REV switch and the speed pot next ...


Will


----------



## precisionworks

Nice job, exactly how I would connect the drive :thumbsup:

You will probably find that the shaft on the new Baldor is 1.125" (if you have the M3611T). Unless the old motor shaft is also 1.125", you'll need a new step pulley. After searching the world over ... OK, after searching North America ... the only one I found is made by Baldor-Maska. Cast iron, lathe turned, bored & then balanced, about $80.

http://www.baldor.com/products/PowerTransmission/catalog/Sheaves/Light Duty/Step Pulleys.pdf

It's heavy at 7.5#, but well built.


----------



## wquiles

precisionworks said:


> Nice job, exactly how I would connect the drive :thumbsup:
> 
> You will probably find that the shaft on the new Baldor is 1.125" (if you have the M3611T). Unless the old motor shaft is also 1.125", you'll need a new step pulley. After searching the world over ... OK, after searching North America ... the only one I found is made by Baldor-Maska. Cast iron, lathe turned, bored & then balanced, about $80.
> 
> http://www.baldor.com/products/PowerTransmission/catalog/Sheaves/Light Duty/Step Pulleys.pdf
> 
> It's heavy at 7.5#, but well built.



Barry, yes, my new Baldor has a 1.125" bore, but the one I need is only for 3 steps, not 4, so the one I would need would be the MAS53. 

How do I contact them to order one? Phone # or linkie to their web site?

I am also trying to go after work tomorrow or Tuesday to buy the steel plate that I will use to mount the motor to the swing-out mounting arm.

Will


----------



## wquiles

I finally got a good set of S&D drills on special via Enco:












and they came handy today to drill the large hole for the main switch:











The smaller hole above is for the potentiometer, which also has a built-in switch:






This is how things look like inside the box:






and outside:






Getting ready to drill and tap the holes for the box - the small light I just recently finished works AWESOME for this kind of close up help!:











In place:
















I need now to wire from the VFD control box to the switch/pot box, and wire the E-stop switches that I bought. Time to read the manual I guess ... :devil:

Will


----------



## fyrstormer

It that a hard drive magnet stuck to the side of the thing? :laughing: I have a ton of those; I have a couple stuck under my bench grinder to catch all the filings and broken wires from the wire wheel.


----------



## precisionworks

> finally got a good set of S&D drills


Precision Twist is way beyond good, as in best of the best. My last two S&D drills came from Titan USA & seem comparable to Precision Twist.

Here's a quick story about how to mess up a S&D drill shank & an ER-40 collet at the same time. As your photo shows, S&D drills have a long (probably 2") section that's 1/2" diameter, so they can be used in a 1/2" drill chuck. One day, I had a tall part set up in the mill & cranked the head up as far as possible but still had not enough room to mount a 1" S&D drill. Cut the drill shank way down, left about 3/4", and got that job done. Didn't realize that the drill shank was now so short that it did not fully go through the slotted area of the collet. Spun the drill shank in the collet on the next use.

Cost of one .500" ER-40 collet $30
Cost of two S&D drills $60
Value of the experience - priceless :nana:


----------



## precisionworks

> How do I contact them to order (the Maska step pulley) Phone # or linkie to their web site?


Motion Industries has locations all over the country. They may ask for some type of business ID, and will give wholesale pricing if you can provide that.

http://www.motionindustries.com/motion3/jsp/mii/index.html

Until you have an account set up with them, they may be a little cool


----------



## wquiles

fyrstormer said:


> It that a hard drive magnet stuck to the side of the thing? :laughing: I have a ton of those; I have a couple stuck under my bench grinder to catch all the filings and broken wires from the wire wheel.


Yes, it is. I use them to hold the rubber flaps that I use to keep debris from going in all directions - I know, I know, it is futile to even try, but I still try 



precisionworks said:


> Motion Industries has locations all over the country. They may ask for some type of business ID, and will give wholesale pricing if you can provide that.
> 
> http://www.motionindustries.com/motion3/jsp/mii/index.html
> 
> Until you have an account set up with them, they may be a little cool



I just created an account with them, and also called and got the local (Dallas) phone number. I hope to order the sheave by this afternoon - thanks 




precisionworks said:


> Precision Twist is way beyond good, as in best of the best. My last two S&D drills came from Titan USA & seem comparable to Precision Twist.


Good to know I picked up a good set then - they are certainly sharp!


Will


----------



## wquiles

Well, I bought today a 10" by 10", 3/8" thick steel plate to make the motor mount/adapter. Of course, besides the holes, I have to scrape/clean the rust and paint, but slowly making progress


----------



## precisionworks

> I got a Metabo 4 1/2" angle grinder which made it easy and pleasant to cut the steel bar ...


And that same angle grinder, with a wire wheel, is the ticket to removing rust & paint. Pick up a stringer bead wire wheel used for weld cleaning, as these are the stiffest wire wheels available. Put a face mask on & be sure NOT to have gloves on your hands - that wire wheel will suck a gloved finger into the guard in a heartbeat. Nice thing about Metabo is the clutch, so when my gloved little finger (right hand) got jammed between wheel & guard, the wheel stopped turning & allowed me to hit the kill switch  Hurt like heck but the finger stayed attached.

Angle grinders are an awesome tool for rust, scale & paint removal. Just leave the gloves behind.


----------



## wquiles

precisionworks said:


> And that same angle grinder, with a wire wheel, is the ticket to removing rust & paint. Pick up a stringer bead wire wheel used for weld cleaning, as these are the stiffest wire wheels available. Put a face mask on & be sure NOT to have gloves on your hands - that wire wheel will suck a gloved finger into the guard in a heartbeat. Nice thing about Metabo is the clutch, so when my gloved little finger (right hand) got jammed between wheel & guard, the wheel stopped turning & allowed me to hit the kill switch  Hurt like heck but the finger stayed attached.
> 
> Angle grinders are an awesome tool for rust, scale & paint removal. Just leave the gloves behind.



Bought the wire wheel this morning, I already own a large face mask, and thanks for tip on the gloves. The VFD project continues ...


----------



## KowShak

precisionworks said:


> Pick up a stringer bead wire wheel used for weld cleaning, as these are the stiffest wire wheels available.



Those things are really effective for paint / scale / rust removal.

I've also got a "cup" wire brush for the angle grinder, I'd recommend you avoid the cup type since they go out of balance almost immediately and vibrate enough to make your fingers go numb, the flat ones don't suffer from the same problem.


----------



## precisionworks

> I'd recommend you avoid the cup type


+1

Most of the "regular" cup wheels have very fine, straight wire, which limits their effectiveness. The stringer bead wheel has a hard face & will tolerate all the pressure that can be applied. It will, with enough pressure & time, remove hot rolled scale - which is close to impossible to do with anything else.



> thanks for tip on the gloves.


You're welcome. The worst part of the wheel grabbing my little finger was rotating the wheel backwards to free the finger. I was not at all sure what would be left :sick2:


----------



## wquiles

And by the way, I was able to order the sheave this last Tuesday, so hopefully it will arrive no lather than next week. With any luck, I will be able to finish the conversion by Thanksgiving weekend :devil:


----------



## wquiles

The sheave arrived today 













Very nice sliding fit:






Will


----------



## precisionworks

Carving the turkey may have to wait ... until the mill is done


----------



## wquiles

precisionworks said:


> Carving the turkey may have to wait ... until the mill is done



That is honestly my goal. I am working on how I will be connecting the 0-5K Ohm POT to vary speed of the drive, and to combine that with:
- the ON/OFF switch that I have (Normally Open)
- Forward switch (also NO)
- Reverse switch (also NO)

Will


----------



## precisionworks

> connecting the 0-5K Ohm POT to vary speed



That's pretty easy 

Using this manual: http://www.ctiautomation.net/PDF/AC-Tech/AC-Tech-SMVector-Drive-User-Manual.pdf

Look on page 13. 






The slider on the speed pot goes to control terminal 5, and each end connection on the pot goes to 2 & 6.






> - the ON/OFF switch that I have (Normally Open)
> - Forward switch (also NO)
> - Reverse switch (also NO)



On page 16, P100 selects the Start Control Source. At this point, I telephone tech support & have them walk me through the rest of the configuration, as it's easy to get conflicting commands.


----------



## wquiles

I have the manual (actually a slightly newer manual, so the page numbers are different), but what I meant by my earlier comment is that I had to figure out how I wanted to wire things up, given the many alternatives. 

I wired the control box today. Since I needed a total of 7 wires, I decided to use Cat 5e Ethernet wire, with a split cable protector:





















The 5K pot has a built-in switch, which I actually used:
















Of course I tested it to make sure the connections were right:











And here it is mounted back on the mill:











I then started work on the E-switch (NEMA 4 ratting):





















And here I finished wiring the control box and the E-switch:






And here I am testing the switch on the pot and the E-switch for proper operation:






Basically all that is left is the mechanical part of actually mounting the motor


----------



## precisionworks

> all that is left is the mechanical part of actually mounting the motor



Nice work :thumbsup:

You may want to run a temp power cable to the motor to verify operation of the drive. That will also tell you if the motor is running forward or backward with a start command.


----------



## wquiles

How do I actually wire the motor's 9-10 wires to the VFD? Linkie from Baldor perhaps?


I started marking the hole positions in the steel plate:











Drilled them (a tad over-sized to allow adjustment/alignment):






I had to make a cutout for the mill's adjustment piston:











Once I had the motor mounting holes, I made the holes to mount the motor/plate to the swing mounting plate on the mill:











Rust removal "process":






yours truly in full safety gear:






WAX ON - WAX OFF:






and the edges:






Clean and paint:






Makr matching cut for piston on motor mount (then clean edges with file):











To provide a little bit of shock/vibration isolation I am using these floor rubber mat material:






Here it is after being compressed:






Mount ready on mill, waiting for motor:
















1/4" key for sheave:






Motor in place - my neightbor helped me to get it in there and to align it:





















Align and set sheave in place:






Once I can figure out how to wire the motor I will actually do a "test" run tomorrow 

EDIT: Never mind - I did not see that right on the plate it shows how to wire it.


----------



## wquiles

Well, I finished wiring everything, and guess what, the drive/motor works fine, and I even lucked out and wired it properly (as in running in the right direction!).

Once I figured out that I needed a password to program the device, I programmed the VFD and got all of the other VFD functions running. Well, everything except REV works great. I will post a few more pics later today ...


----------



## precisionworks

Nice job :twothumbs



> everything except REV works great.


You have to change P112 to 1 (default setting is 0). After changing P112 (and with the motor running), first touch the R/F button, then touch M - instant reverse. To change back, touch the R/F button, then touch M.


----------



## wquiles

Got the motor wired:











The new motor is too large for the cover - I will have to cut it some in the back!:












And I finally figured out why the reverse did not work - just another parameter I needed to set :nana:

So everything works - now get ready for the bad news: the motor is bad !!!

It is noisy (dry bearings), and it shakes (unbalanced?). I will try to post a movie of the running motor so that you guys can hear it. It makes the noise and it shakes by itself, or under load - no difference :mecry:

Will


----------



## wquiles

precisionworks said:


> Nice job :twothumbs
> 
> You have to change P112 to 1 (default setting is 0). After changing P112 (and with the motor running), first touch the R/F button, then touch M - instant reverse. To change back, touch the R/F button, then touch M.



Yup - after re-reading the manual for the 10th time I found that parameter - everything in the VFD is working the way it is supposed to. Actually, it was not that bad at all - doing the lathe now (which is more complex and with more wires), will be easy after this project.

Now, about the motor, any recommendations?

I do have another Baldor 3HP 3PH motor (same one), and I will wire it tomorrow to see if it runs smoothly, but I would like to first lube the bearings in the other motor - what can I use that I can buy locally? A good substitute to try?

Will


----------



## precisionworks

You want to use the same grease that came in the bearing when new. EASA put out a tech bulletin listing the different bearing manufacturers & what specific grease to use, http://www.electromotores.com/PDF/In...20Machines.pdf

Baldor has used *Exxon Polyrex EM* for some time, although they used Shell Dolium R or Chevron SRI greases for standard service conditions in the past. (US Electric Motor uses Polyrex EM or Chevron SRI #2. WEG also recommends Polyrex EM.)


----------



## wquiles

precisionworks said:


> You want to use the same grease that came in the bearing when new. EASA put out a tech bulletin listing the different bearing manufacturers & what specific grease to use, http://www.electromotores.com/PDF/In...20Machines.pdf
> 
> Baldor has used *Exxon Polyrex EM* for some time, although they used Shell Dolium R or Chevron SRI greases for standard service conditions in the past. (US Electric Motor uses Polyrex EM or Chevron SRI #2. WEG also recommends Polyrex EM.)



What type of local store(s) sells that type of grease? Ideas/suggestions?

EDIT: Found it. Grainger sells it as "electric motor grease", item #5XB54 = Mobil Polyrex EM.

There is a Grainger like 1- minutes from my house - I will try tomorrow morning 

Will


----------



## wquiles

Here is the video of the bad Baldor motor - listen to the high pitch noise, and also the low speed vibration :sick2:

Bad Baldor Motor Video ...


----------



## wquiles

precisionworks said:


> You want to use the same grease that came in the bearing when new. EASA put out a tech bulletin listing the different bearing manufacturers & what specific grease to use, http://www.electromotores.com/PDF/In...20Machines.pdf
> 
> Baldor has used *Exxon Polyrex EM* for some time, although they used Shell Dolium R or Chevron SRI greases for standard service conditions in the past. (US Electric Motor uses Polyrex EM or Chevron SRI #2. WEG also recommends Polyrex EM.)



By the way Barry, how does one apply the grease? What type of grease gun is used? How do I know I applied enough?

I see the grease fitting for the "IN", but where does the excess exit? Is there a drain hole?


----------



## precisionworks

Add .3 oz (8.4 gm) by weight, or 2.0 teaspoons by volume.

With Grease Outlet Plug
1. Clean all grease fittings.
2. Remove grease outlet plug.
3. If motor is stopped, add the recommended amount of grease.
If motor is to be greased while running, a slightly greater quantity of grease will have to be added. Add grease slowly until new grease appears at shaft hole in the endplate or purge outlet plug.
4. Re-install grease outlet plug.

Without Grease Outlet Plug
1. Disassemble motor.
2. Add recommended amount of grease to bearing and bearing cavity. (Bearing should be about 1/3 full of grease and outboard bearing cavity should be about 1/2 full of grease.) Note: Bearing is 1/3 full when only one side of bearing is completely full of grease.
3. Assemble motor.


----------



## precisionworks

> listen to the high pitch noise, and also the low speed vibration :sick2:


Sounds like all my 3 hp Baldors on a VFD ... the high pitch is the switching freq or carrier freq, never can remember which. Also, there needs to be a fan & guard at the lower end of the motor. Baldor can supply a replacement fan & guard, but the cost is about the same to add a constant speed muffin fan, ducted fan, or squirrel cage blower - whichever you prefer. Without a fan, the motor will die a quick & smelly death :mecry:


----------



## wquiles

precisionworks said:


> Sounds like all my 3 hp Baldors on a VFD ... the high pitch is the switching freq or carrier freq, never can remember which. Also, there needs to be a fan & guard at the lower end of the motor. Baldor can supply a replacement fan & guard, but the cost is about the same to add a constant speed muffin fan, ducted fan, or squirrel cage blower - whichever you prefer. Without a fan, the motor will die a quick & smelly death :mecry:




The fan is there - I removed it temporarily to see if the vibration was contributing to the imbalance that I feel.

Thanks for the tips on lubrication. I will try that once I get the stuff from Grainger 

OK, so the high freq. pitch is normal. What about the vibration? Isn't it supposed to be like "really" smooth on 3 ph power? Almost like a turbine?


----------



## precisionworks

> What about the vibration? Isn't it supposed to be like "really" smooth


With no belt or load, the motor should be silky smooth at all rpms. It is possible that a balance weight has detached from the rotor - not uncommon & easily fixed. Unscrew the four bolts that hold the two end bells on the motor, pull the front end bell first (shaft end). The rotor may slide out of the rear bearing, or you may have to smack the shaft end with a dead blow hammer. Rotate each bearing by hand. Any feeling at all, like roughness of bumpiness, indicates need for a replacement bearing. About $15 each at Motion Industries, replace both even if only one is bad. Most likely that is an in stock bearing.

Then check the fins at each end of the rotor to see if any are broken off, or if a balance weight is missing. If you have a local motor shop, take the rotor by & have them check it for balance - they can also rebalance.


----------



## wquiles

I bought the correct motor grease today:







I applied a little grease via the grease fitting, but did not sound any better, so I decided to open it - there is always a first time for everything!

Here is the top of the motor I had bolted to the mill:






And a view to the rotor - lots of old grease in there (along with a little bit of the new blue grease):
















The armature:






Note the balancing "weights" - they do that at the factory? 












I repacked both bearings:







The bearings felt great - nothing weird about them. Very smooth. I then put everything back together, tried it again, but it still did not feel/sound any better - in fact I would say it got a tad worst!

So I decided to try my other, also new, but much older Baldor motor (same part number, but smaller in size):






The new but older baldor sounded better, but it was not quite right, so I decided to open it (hey, I am expert now as this is my second motor in one day, right?):






This one had little grease and it was old:






The rotor of the older motor was definitely different!:











The armature of the older Baldor:






Upon close up I noted that the bottom wavy washer was broken in pieces:






So, since the newer motor was not quite right, I decided to steal (borrow?) the washer for the older motor:






Here is the washer from the newer motor:






The bearings on this older motor felt just as good as the ones in the newer motor - nothing weird about them. Before re-assembly I pushed the old grease completely out of both housings:






Of course, I had to cut the same relief in the base for the piston. Here is comparison of both Baldor motors, both 3PH, both 3HP, both with the same model (M3611T), but the one on the left is really old, and the one on the right is much newer:











Once I got everything mounted/bolted back, I got the older motor mounted back on the mill:











And the results? Definitely a much smoother motor than the first one. Not quite 100% vibration free, but definitely worth the hasle to get the motor apart, lubed, and bolted again. Quite the project indeed!

Thanks Barry for all of the advice and help - much appreciated :bow:

Will


----------



## precisionworks

That's what I call a learning experience - much like your first date in high school, the next time will be easier 

Electric motor bearings are so inexpensive that they are normally replaced when there is _any _question or doubt about their condition. Adding grease to a new bearing, after x many hours, will keep that bearing almost new. Adding grease to an older bearing that's been allowed to run dry will never improve it. Ball bearings work correctly only when all the spherical elements are perfect spheres, and when the U-groove races are smooth as glass. Once damaged, they aren't repairable. If you don't have an arbor press, a motor shop or bearing shop can press new bearings on for you. It is money well spent.

Look at photo 13 (older motor) & you'll see some flat washers pressed onto the stubs that extend from the rotor - those are the balance weights. None are visible on the new motor.



> Here is comparison of both Baldor motors, both 3PH, both 3HP, both with the same model (M3611T), but the one on the left is really old, and the one on the right is much newer:


Older motors were built differently than motors built after 1992, when the EPAct (Energy Policy Act) was signed into law. Older motors had wide air gaps, different winding patterns, lots of iron in the rotor, and often averaged 50% efficiency. EPAct motors generally run 85% or greater efficiency. Pre EPAct motors would tolerate lots of rotor-stator misalignment, sloppy bearing to bell fits, etc., and run just fine. EPAct motors have to be just right with almost no room for error. Which is why bearing replacement is the first step any motor shop takes to eliminate problems.



> the bottom wavy washer was broken in pieces:


That washer serves to position the rotor so that it is centered inside the stator windings. A broken wave washer allows the rotor to float back & forth & can cause noise.


----------



## wquiles

Yup - a definite learning experience. Cool thing is that I am now not scared about opening a motor and doing whatever I have to do - these things are actually quite simple once you get one open - let alone doing it 3 times in one day  . I could have not done the VFD conversion without your help, so thanks again 

I will go ahead and order the new wavy washer and the two bearings for the newer Baldor motor. I will then inquire as to who locally in Dallas can balance the rotor, so that at least I will have a good "spare" 3HP motor available.

I still have a brand new 5HP 3PH motor available, but that is going on the 12x lathe's VFD conversion :devil: . Of course, I will first open that motor, remove old grease, re-grease with the new blue grease, and bolt it back up before I even start the lathe VFD conversion


----------



## bluwolf

Will,

Nice work on the VFD conversion. Just one more thread I'll bookmark because we have basically the same mill.

Any chance you'll feel the need to re-do the bearings and seals on your spindle? I'd love one of your pictorials for that. I think the oil seal at the bottom of my spindle is going bad.

I was using my cheap 2" boring head on a shaft collar bracket hole. Apparently there's some flex because the boring bar was still slightly cutting as I withdrew the boring bar. The point being is that it put a small amount of drag downward on the spindle. This seemed to let grease seep out and collect around the spindle where it goes into the quill (did that make sense?). I didn't notice it until I started the next cutting pass. Then it started to drip down and sling a little bit of it.

I was just finishing the boring anyway. So I took out the boring head, stuck in a collet and an endmill, started the mill and stroked the quill up and down a few times. Nothing, no leaking. It was only when there was downward drag on the spindle.

I hope asking this isn't hijacking your thread. If it is let me know. I thought it was appropriate because it's about the same kind of mill and it would be nice to keep all the info in one place.

Mike


----------



## wquiles

Thanks Mike. I did the final touches today by cutting the belt cover to fit - the new motor is bigger. Not "pretty", but it works well!:






Here is a short movie of the now fully functional VFD conversion running on my mill. I changed the display to show RPM's (instead of the default of hertz), and changed the carrier freq from the default 4K to 6K, and it is noticeably quieter now (which the manual said it would). On the video I have it go up to 1200-1300 RPM's, and then go to about 2625 RPM's, which is the max. I have programmed the VFD to do (max of 90Hz). On the video you will see the display flashing "dec" as it is trying to actively help stop the motor quicker than by just coasting (still fine tunning this value some).
link to movie ...


I will do an updated post later tonight with the actual VFD program values that I used for documentation purposes in this thread.

Will


----------



## wquiles

VFD Settings for AC Tech NEMA4 3HP SMVector Drive/Controller:

P100 = 1 = Terminal Strip
P101 = 1 = 0-10Vdc

P112 = 1 = Forward and Reverse
P121 = 13 = Run Forward 
P122 = 14 = Run Reverse

P103 = 90 = Max Frequency
P161 = 90 = Speed at Max Signal

P104 = 10 = Acceleration time (seconds)
P105 = 2 = Deceleration time (seconds)
P111 = 2 = Stop Method => Ramp

P178 = 29.17 = Display multiplier Frequency (times 60 gives 1750 RPMs)

P166 = 1 = Carrier Frequency = 6 Khz


----------



## precisionworks

I am impressed 

Commissioning a drive for the first time is intimidating. The manuals are written by electrical engineers for electrical engineers, and just a bit awkward for the union electrician or maintenance person or small shop owner to use. They make more sense after a dozen or so readings, if you can stay awake that long.

Did you go through the motor cal procedure? If not, set P300 to option 4 (Vector Speed) and set P302-P306 using motor nameplate data. Then:

- Set P399 = 1 (calibration enabled)
- Make sure motor is cold (20° - 25° C) and apply a Start command
- Display will indicate CAL for about 40 seconds & you'll hear Twilight Zone sounds
- Once the calibration is complete, the display will indicate Stop; apply another Start command to actually start the motor
- If an attempt is made to start the drive in Vector mode before performing the Motor Calibration, the drive will display F.n1d (No Motor ID) fault and will not operate

The drive performs many times better in Vector Speed mode than in the default Constant V/Hz mode (P300=0)

You might also want to try shorter accel times. Some users go as low as 2 seconds, quite a few use 3 or 4 seconds, mine are set to 5 seconds. If you have a clamp on ammeter, watch the display as you shorten the accel time & you'll find a point where it rises to a level that's more than you want. At 5 seconds, none of my motors draws more than 5 amps on accel, which puts minimal heat into the rotor & stator windings. Contrast that to ATL (across the line) starting, where a 3 hp motor will draw about 90 amps for a few tenths of a second. The VFD is much more gentle on both motor & the entire drive train.


----------



## wquiles

Barry,

I happen to be an Electrical Engineer, so the parameters/manual actually make sense, but getting started is always a little confusing. I followed your advice and now have my VFD set to Vector mode. These are the updated parameters I now have:

VFD Settings for AC Tech NEMA4 3HP SMVector Drive/Controller:

P100 = 1 = Terminal Strip
P101 = 1 = 0-10Vdc (I am using a 5K pot to vary speed)

P112 = 1 = Forward and Reverse
P121 = 13 = Run Forward 
P122 = 14 = Run Reverse

P103 = 90 = Max Frequency
P161 = 90 = Speed at Max Signal

P104 = 5 = Acceleration time (seconds)
P105 = 2 = Deceleration time (seconds) (it faults if set to 1 second)
P111 = 2 = Stop Method => Ramp

P178 = 29.17 = Display multiplier Frequency (times 60 gives 1750 RPMs)

P166 = 1 = Carrier Frequency = 6 Khz

P300 = 4 = Vector mode
P302 = 230 = Rated Volts
P303 = 8.2 = Rated Amps at 230 volts
P304 = 60 = Motor freq.
P305 = 1725 = Motor RPMs
P306 = 0.69 = Calculated based on nameplate data
P399 = 1 = Start calibration (changed to a 2 when done)


----------



## precisionworks

> I happen to be an Electrical Engineer


Now I understand how you got through the manual without going to sleep


----------



## wquiles

precisionworks said:


> Now I understand how you got through the manual without going to sleep



Yup, BSEE from Puerto Rico, and MSEE from Purdue - I have gone through a LOT of boring books in my life


----------



## wquiles

*Re: just bought an used knee mill ...*



gadget_lover said:


> I have added a SINO DRO to it, though I'm waiting for a replacement on a defective scale. In the mean time the Z axis scale is mounted on the Y axis. I'll be mounting a cheap Chinese scale to the quill soon, maybe today.
> 
> I'll post pictures when I'm done.
> 
> Daniel



Daniel,

My SINO 3-axis DRO arrived yesterday. I hope to at least take a good look at the pieces this weekend, but before I start - any tips/suggestions for mounting the scales?

Will


----------



## precisionworks

> any tips/suggestions for mounting the scales?


If the instructions are written in ChingLish, don't worry. Acu-Rite has all their user manuals online & they are clearly written.

There should be an alignment clip that provides temporary connection between the glass scale & the reader head. Most instructions state that the glass scale gets mounted first, as you may have to remove a screw or work around some other obstruction. Level it carefully parallel to the mill bed. Then attach the alignment clip & it will give an indication of where it needs to be (about mid scale, both for X & Y).

Not difficult but not fast either. You'll be fine ... I may have you mount the DRO when I get a Bridgeport


----------



## wquiles

precisionworks said:


> If the instructions are written in ChingLish, don't worry. Acu-Rite has all their user manuals online & they are clearly written.
> 
> There should be an alignment clip that provides temporary connection between the glass scale & the reader head. Most instructions state that the glass scale gets mounted first, as you may have to remove a screw or work around some other obstruction. Level it carefully parallel to the mill bed. Then attach the alignment clip & it will give an indication of where it needs to be (about mid scale, both for X & Y).
> 
> Not difficult but not fast either. You'll be fine ... I may have you mount the DRO when I get a Bridgeport



On the brief look I gave to the SINO package contents, and yes, it looks to be the "high quality" manuals we all love to hate 

Actually, I am exaggerating a little. The manual is actually fairly "decent" compared to all others that came from Asia. Thanks for the encouragement and for suggesting to take a look at the Acu-Rite instructions. Hopefully Daniel (who has the same basic mill and also has the SINO DRO) will also chime in with additional words of wisdom


----------



## gadget_lover

Sorry about the late reply. Been a busy week.

A few pointers? Sure!

1st, is to mock it up if you can. Magnets and 2-sided tape help. A small mill has more opportunities for things to interfere with each other. You might find little things like the cable from the reader catching on protrudences.

I preferred to mount the reader so it was stationary. The scale moves with the table. That made the cables less of a hassle. It also caused some clearance problems.

I don't have time to do pictures. 

The readers do NOT like being run all the way to the ends of the scales. Leave about 1/2 inch of clearance.

The glass in the scales can break. Be careful with them when handling. 

To check the scale, put a block on each end to stop the reader at the same spot each time. Plug it in and turn it on. run the reader to one end, then zero the readout. Run it the other end, then back again. It should go back to zero. If there's a bad spot it will not be repeatable.

Use your dial indicator to make sure the scale is parallel to the travel of the table before you fix the mount to the reader. For the knee you might want to rig up a ghetto power drive with your power drill. You'll be lowering and raising it a lot.

I made a 3 way adjustable bracket for the reader so that I could attach it to the head even if the reader was not 100% parallel to the flat surface that I mounted the bracket to.

You don't normally turn off the DRO display. You use the HA key to put it in 'sleep mode'. It will still see scale movement that way. It uses just a few watts in sleep mode.

I'm sure I will come up with more....

Daniel


----------



## wquiles

gadget_lover said:


> Sorry about the late reply. Been a busy week.
> 
> A few pointers? Sure!
> 
> 1st, is to mock it up if you can. Magnets and 2-sided tape help. A small mill has more opportunities for things to interfere with each other. You might find little things like the cable from the reader catching on protrudences.
> 
> I preferred to mount the reader so it was stationary. The scale moves with the table. That made the cables less of a hassle. It also caused some clearance problems.
> 
> I don't have time to do pictures.
> 
> The readers do NOT like being run all the way to the ends of the scales. Leave about 1/2 inch of clearance.
> 
> The glass in the scales can break. Be careful with them when handling.
> 
> To check the scale, put a block on each end to stop the reader at the same spot each time. Plug it in and turn it on. run the reader to one end, then zero the readout. Run it the other end, then back again. It should go back to zero. If there's a bad spot it will not be repeatable.
> 
> Use your dial indicator to make sure the scale is parallel to the travel of the table before you fix the mount to the reader. For the knee you might want to rig up a ghetto power drive with your power drill. You'll be lowering and raising it a lot.
> 
> I made a 3 way adjustable bracket for the reader so that I could attach it to the head even if the reader was not 100% parallel to the flat surface that I mounted the bracket to.
> 
> You don't normally turn off the DRO display. You use the HA key to put it in 'sleep mode'. It will still see scale movement that way. It uses just a few watts in sleep mode.
> 
> I'm sure I will come up with more....
> 
> Daniel



Thanks much. This will help me get started. I will go slow and post pictures of what I am doing in case I get hang-up on something 

Will


----------



## gadget_lover

I'm out if town, so responses will be delayed...

I mounted the X scale on the front of the table using the T-slot meant for the stop. I used a stand-off so I could still use the stops. This has worked well EXCEPT that the Rotary table expects the indexing plates to hang over the edge. The scale is in the way of that. The only way I can do that is to mount the RT on 246 blocks. 

Daniel


----------



## wquiles

gadget_lover said:


> I'm out if town, so responses will be delayed...
> 
> I mounted the X scale on the front of the table using the T-slot meant for the stop. I used a stand-off so I could still use the stops. This has worked well EXCEPT that the Rotary table expects the indexing plates to hang over the edge. The scale is in the way of that. The only way I can do that is to mount the RT on 246 blocks.
> 
> Daniel



I seem to remember you mentioned the X scale being in front of the table, but I don't remember why. Lack of clearance in the back? What would have been the compromise if you put it on the back?

Will


----------



## gadget_lover

Yes, I'd lose about an inch of travel if I mounted it in the back. My table will run all the way back to the column. If the head moved in and out it would not be as much of an issue. 

I mounted the X and Y scales with the reader at the bottom. I mounted the Z with the reader pointing away from the table. Less chance of swarf in the scale that way. 

Daniel


----------



## bluwolf

Daniel,

I know you said you couldn't take pics right now. But are you planning to take some and post them in the near future?

Mike


----------



## gadget_lover

I can probably do that tomorrow. You'll have to promise not to notice any of the background mess, chipped paint and other cosmetic blotches. 

Will and Pablo and Barry's pictures make mine look like some thing in a farmer's barn. 

Daniel


----------



## wquiles

OK, we promise ("clean" right hand on granite surface plate instead of using Bible!) not to make fun of your pictures/setup/etc.

I think this is the best we machinists can promise :devil:


----------



## bluwolf

gadget_lover said:


> I can probably do that tomorrow. You'll have to promise not to notice any of the background mess, chipped paint and other cosmetic blotches.
> 
> Will and Pablo and Barry's pictures make mine look like some thing in a farmer's barn.
> 
> Daniel


 
You've never seen any of my pictures. Or the chipped paint on my mill. You have nothing to apologize for, believe me.

Mike


----------



## PEU

gadget_lover said:


> Will and Pablo and Barry's pictures make mine look like some thing in a farmer's barn.
> 
> Daniel



Nah... the real magic is done by carefully selecting an "unmessed" corner of the shop and aim the camera that way 


Pablo


----------



## gadget_lover

OK, I did some pictures. I'm just going to post them, since there's not much explanation needed.

The full mill. The X scale is on the front of the table, reader mounted to the saddle. Y is mounted under the table on the right, reader mounted to the knee. Z it on the left side along the column. The scale is mounted to the column and the reader is mounted to the knee. 








The X scale is suspended in front of the table so that I can reach the stops and table locks. I could have put it between the column and the table, but that would have cost me over an inch of travel. I only have 7.5 inches. I used the T-slot for the X stop to mount it. The T-nut holds the stanchion to the table. It's secured by a screw that passes through the scale mount and the stanchion. 








You can see the X and Y scales here. The Y is on the right and viewed end-on. The Y needed to be way out there to miss the oiler. Others will not have that problem. If I moved the oiler I could have mounted it close to the knee, but I still would have had to miss the sloping column behind it.






Again, the oiler necessitated some strange mounts. The long arm of the reader mount is needed so that the reader does not hit either end of the scale as the scale moves. The oiler was right where I would have put the mount. 






The Z is mounted the reverse of the others. The scale is stationary and the reader moves. I could not figure out how to mount the scale on the knee without interfering with something. The bracket is long so I made it from 2.5 inch wide strap. It does not shift in use.  Both top and bottom scale mounts are adjustable. I dialed it in to less than .005 deviation from parallel over the 20 something inches.





Top Z Mount






The most critical parts;
1) scales parallel to the ways.
2) watch for obstructions behind the moving part.
3) No flex in the mounts. They are made thick for a reason. 
4) The cables are prone to snagging. Bundle, suspend or otherwise protect them where possible.

If I were doing it again, I might consider removing the table stops and relocating the oiler. I do use the stops, so I'd hate to lose them.

Daniel


----------



## wquiles

Thank you, thank you, thank you :bow:

Did you had to make any brackets/parts, or the kit that we get has the stuff I need?

In other words, which of the pieces in your photos was not part of the kit?

Will


----------



## gadget_lover

Glad to have been of help. 

I made most of the brackets for all three. The Y reader mount used the stock bracket where it atatched to the knee. That's the thick (3/8 inch or so) bracket attached to the knee.

I used 1/8 inch aluminum strap and angle to make the brackets. Most have a milled slot to allow adjustment in one or more direction. 

I could have used the stock mounts if...

1) I did not have things like the oiler and locks in the way.
2) I did not have to deal with a column that had sloping sides. 
3) I did not have clearance issues (X reader).

Daniel


----------



## bluwolf

Daniel,

Don't know what to say. Awesome perhaps. When (if) I ever decide to spring for a DRO on mine I'll just get you to do the install:laughing:

Mike


----------



## gadget_lover

bluwolf said:


> Daniel,
> 
> Don't know what to say. Awesome perhaps. When (if) I ever decide to spring for a DRO on mine I'll just get you to do the install:laughing:
> 
> Mike



Thanks Mike. Just send the First Class ticket and arrange the time off with my boss, and I'll be there! Oh, and I'll need time off from work too. Darn! Guess you'll have to do it yourself. 

It's actually not too hard to do once you figure out where to mount things without losing access to something. I had the clamp set hanging from the right side of the column, and had to remove it to make room for the Y axis scale since it moves up and down as with the knee as well as in and out with the table. 

The mill is still fully functional while you are installing the parts. In my case I had a micromill and drill press also available in case I had to fab something up. 

Daniel


----------



## wquiles

gadget_lover said:


> Glad to have been of help.
> 
> I made most of the brackets for all three. The Y reader mount used the stock bracket where it atatched to the knee. That's the thick (3/8 inch or so) bracket attached to the knee.
> 
> I used 1/8 inch aluminum strap and angle to make the brackets. Most have a milled slot to allow adjustment in one or more direction.
> 
> I could have used the stock mounts if...
> 
> 1) I did not have things like the oiler and locks in the way.
> 2) I did not have to deal with a column that had sloping sides.
> 3) I did not have clearance issues (X reader).
> 
> Daniel



The oiler in my machine is on the other side, so the Y axis "should" be more straight forward. For the X I have to think about it some more, as you do have a valid point about loosing about an 1" of travel if installed in the back. The Z will likely be done in the same side as yours 

I have not opened the box with all of the pieces, so I yet don't know which brackets I will use or not, but thanks to you I do have a better idea of the challenges :bow:


----------



## precisionworks

I'll post a photo of the DRO mounting on my Enco mill-drill, but that is far different from the knee mill that you two have.


----------



## StrikerDown

precisionworks said:


> I'll post a photo of the DRO mounting on my Enco mill-drill, but that is far different from the knee mill that you two have.



I would like to see that, My RF 31 needs a Christmas present!


----------



## bluwolf

Daniel,

I'm gonna be difficult and ask a stupid question. Why did you not mount the Y scale on the left side? Would it have interfered with the knee scale?

Mike


----------



## gadget_lover

bluwolf said:


> Daniel,
> 
> I'm gonna be difficult and ask a stupid question. Why did you not mount the Y scale on the left side? Would it have interfered with the knee scale?
> 
> Mike



Not a bad question at all.

In my case, the knee and Y table locks are on the left side, along with the crank for the knee and the power switch. I could not quite find a way to mount the scale and still be able to get to the locks. I came close.  I really wanted it on the left side.

I could have built a nice sturdy bracket to hold it lower and far enough out to clear the Z scale and back far enough to clear the knee handle, but was unsure if that would be immobile enough. I'm just learning to weld.

Daniel


----------



## precisionworks

> I would like to see that, My RF 31 needs a Christmas present!


Just for you, Ray :thumbsup:



Glass scale is mounted to the mill table, with reader head mounted underneath.






Glass scale is mounted to stationary base with moving reader head.





Display moves where needed.


----------



## wquiles

Looks like Grizzly has re-introduced the same knee mill that Daniel (Gadget_Lover) and I own:
http://www.grizzly.com/products/8-x-30-Variable-Speed-Vertical-Mill/G0678

and it is cheaper than the $4500 or so that mine cost back 10 years ago and comes with variable speed!


----------



## gadget_lover

Amazing that they sell for $4000 new. The built in VFD is nice.

I think I'll put up with belts for a while longer.

Dan


----------



## precisionworks

> I'll put up with belts for a while longer.


The mill comes with a 1.5hp motor & drive, and it would cost little to change your mill to a 3ph 1.5hp motor (about $50-$75 on eBay) and drive to match ($206.25 for the SMVector drive from Wolf Automation).

Personally, for not much more, a 3hp motor and drive will vastly outperform the smaller unit. Roughly $125 for the motor & $283.25 for the drive :thumbsup:

The Yasakawa RM5G-2001 does not appear to be a vector drive (here's the manual, all 8MB:

http://www.rhymebus.com.tw/downloads/documents/rm5g/RM5G_Operation_Manual_English_V1.6.pdf )

That makes it really inexpensive for Griz to install the drive at the factory.


----------



## StrikerDown

Daniel/Will, Does the head on your mill tilt? 

Looks like it could be a handy feature.

Just ordered an X axis power feed and cheapo quill DRO for my RF-31, and noticed (again) Barry's post above about how he mounted his 2 Axis DRO. I will probably get my mill all fixed up then sell it for a bigger unit! Buy high, sell low as usual!

Look at the last page of the mill section in that grizzly catalog... CNC!


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## wquiles

StrikerDown said:


> Daniel/Will, Does the head on your mill tilt?


Yes, exactly like shown in the Grizzly pages. In fact that is how you do the "X" axis tramming of the milling head.


----------



## gadget_lover

Yes Ray, the head tilts left and right, but does not 'nod' (front to back). I originally thought it would go 90 degrees left and right, but according to the label on the swivel it's much less than that.

Will, have you tried going more than 45 degrees?


Dan


----------



## wquiles

gadget_lover said:


> Will, have you tried going more than 45 degrees?


No; in fact, I am just having trouble keeping it at "zero" (trammed)


----------



## gadget_lover

Let me know if you try. I'll do the same if I get a chance. I need to make one of those nifty dual dial indicator tramming devices anyway.

If it does go 90 degrees, and the column swivels 90 degrees, I can see it used as a horizontal mill too. 

Daniel


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## wquiles

gadget_lover said:


> Let me know if you try. I'll do the same if I get a chance


Mine is marked up to 45 deg, but I don't know how much it will go past that. Like you said, something else to try.





gadget_lover said:


> I need to make one of those nifty dual dial indicator tramming devices anyway.


You and I both - definitely something useful to have


----------



## precisionworks

> I need to make one of those nifty dual dial indicator tramming devices anyway.


I can't figure why anyone would feel the need for that ... clamp an Indicol to the spindle nose (or collet chuck) and touch the table with the dial test indicator tip. Left & right tram usually takes just a few minutes to correct, as does front & back tram. Since only two points at a time are being compared, it's a fast process.

Would the dual dials be faster or more accurate


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## wquiles

For me at least it just sounds like a very neat project. From the descriptions, it would be a little bit faster with the two dials, but I don't see how it would be more accurate.


----------



## gadget_lover

I always worry that the DTI will catch in a T-slot and get ruined. The Dial indiactors are a bit tougher.

But you are right Barry, the time put into making one will probably never be recovered.

Daniel


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## Clark

wquiles said:


> I happen to be an Electrical Engineer, so the parameters/manual actually make sense, but getting started is always a little confusing.



I am an electrical engineer.
So is my father, so is my wife.
My son is a software engineer, but he showed my how to calculate the transient plus steady state on an AC line.

I am in a state of confusion with every new thing that comes along.
The important thing is to start documenting with schematics and lists, as you did.
Then even a pea brain, like mine, can understand the situation.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++





I too have a small knee mill, a Rockwell 21-100 circa 1962.

I put this 6 inch wheel on:
http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INSRIT?PARTPG=INLMKD&PMPXNO=4824784&PMAKA=240-0678

With this rotating handle:
http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INSRIT?PMAKA=319-7677

The crank handle on a Bridgeport may be warranted with a very heavy knee, but the 6" wheel is much faster on a little 21-100.

Unless I am wearing gloves, I need the rotating handles on the wheels.

The wheel to be adapted needs a bore with a keyway.
I could cut the keyway with a hacksaw or find a bore with a keyway and use that.
I found a bore with keyway from an old handle with the wings smashed off, and turned it down on the lathe. 
I bored out the wheel, and drilled and tapped a set screw into the wheel, and put the old bore inside the wheel and the incremented dial.

What does it all mean?
1) The crank handle for raising the knee needed to be a smaller.
2) The cross feed wheel needed to get larger.
3) They both needed rotating handles.


----------



## wquiles

Clark said:


> I am an electrical engineer.
> So is my father, so is my wife.
> My son is a software engineer, but he showed my how to calculate the transient plus steady state on an AC line.
> 
> I am in a state of confusion with every new thing that comes along.
> The important thing is to start documenting with schematics and lists, as you did.
> Then even a pea brain, like mine, can understand the situation.


Cool - it is awesome to have more engineers here to help out with the many projects/questions that come along :thumbsup:




Clark said:


>


I just went out and looked, and my knee mill already has the larger 6"+ wheels on the X and Y - definitely much larger than the small one in your picture above.

As to the wheel on the Z, that sounds like a good idea. I have heard of somebody else that did the same thing, and he also said it was easier/quicker. Maybe something to try out


----------



## wquiles

Found the "perfect" accessory for my mill - a 10" face mill 
http://dallas.craigslist.org/ftw/tls/1587577334.html


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## bluwolf

I just adapted a bridgeport style powerfeed on the X axis of my 8x30 mill. It's essentially the same mill that Will and Daniel have so I thought this would be a good place for it. I got the idea from an article in HSM magazine written by a gentleman named Rick Kruger. He adapted the same powerfeed to a 6x26 mill. Again, basically the same mill just smaller. 

Since I'm very much the newb I contacted him to ask him a few questions. Long story short, I can't thank him enough for the help he gave me. I could not have done it without all his help. He went way beyond what I would have expected. Mine is not as nice as his but it does the job.

It'll be obvious I'm nowhere near as good as Will at this photo documentation thing. This is what you see when you pull off the handwheel. Note the bearing housing and the length of the leadscrew shaft for the next couple of pix.







The first thing I did was make a bracket to clear the bearing housing and provide a flat surface to mount the powerfeed. In this picture you can see the small gap between the bearing housing and the powerfeed mounting bracket. 1/2" worked for mine. I used what I had so I stacked a 1/4" piece of flat bar in front of a 1/4" piece of angle. The top of the angle also serves to cover the void and keep swarf out of the PF mounting bracket casting, created when I cut the top of the bracket off to keep it below the level of the table. The reason for that being that if you ever had to clamp a project longer than the table, the bracket wouldn't stop you from mounting it flat.







At this point I started to backwards engineer it. I had to make a dummy bearing spacer to center the powerfeed on my leadscrew. I mounted the PF mounting bracket (grey piece) to the powerfeed, slid the dummy bearing on my leadscrew, then slid the whole assembly over my leadscrew. This showed me where to tap for the holes for the PF mounting bracket and how much to cut off the top of the bracket to keep it below the top of the table. You can also see how little of the original leadscrew is sticking out of the powerfeed.







This shows my cobbled up bracket to clear the housing. The two cap head bolts you can see are the two holes that hold the bearing housing end cap casting to the mill table. I just bought longer bolts and also used them as the mounting bolts for my aluminum bracket. The two tapped holes above them are the mounting points for the grey powerfeed bracket. You can also see the extension I made to fit over the existing leadscrew.







This is a closeup of the leadscrew extension. What you can't see is hole bored in the fat end to slide over the existing leadscrew. The fat end takes the place of the dummy bearing sleeve, to center and support the powerfeed. The drilled hole is for the roll pin that will secure the extension to the leadscrew. The middle section with the small flat on it is for the powerfeed bevel gear. The flat is for the setscrew I put in the bevel gear after modifying it. The thin part of the shaft is to re-mount the original handwheel.







This is a pic of the bevel gear as it comes. All that threaded part and then some gets cut off. That black at the bottom is just a plastic cover to protect the brass teeth on the gear.







First I tapped it for a setscrew where I knew it would be mounted on the extension shaft. Then I bored it out to fit that section of the extension. I made another dummy shaft to support it in the lathe while parting off the threaded part. 

Why go through all that trouble when the hole through the bevel gear is only a couple thousandths smaller than my existing leadscrew? Because what I didn't mention before is that the hole in the extension that slides over the existing leadscrew goes almost all the way through the second step also.







This pic shows the parts that I made/modified except for the dummy bearings and shafts. You can see the extension and the bevel gear. I also had to make a couple rings that mated the original handwheel with the graduated dial to the powerfeed housing. The opening in the powerfeed is bigger than the graduated dial on the handwheel. These rings keep swarf from getting into the powerfeed. Again, I used what I had. This could have been done with one ring if I had a larger diameter piece of rod. As it was, I had a large enough piece of al tubing for the bigger diameter, and piece of solid rod that was big enough for the handwheel diameter. The lips on each ring grab an inside diameter of both the PF and the handwheel to locate them. 







Here it is pretty much done for that part. The key slot on the extension is for the handwheel, the same as the key slot on the original leadscrew so no modification to the handwheel assembly was necessary. You still have to mount the microswitch box and stops for the automatic powerfeed stop to work.







This is the bracket to mount the microswitch for the stops. It replaces the solid bracket for the orignal table stops. It's off center because the existing mounting holes in the mill are too close to the same spacing as the screws that mount the microswitch box. The holes had to be oriented like this to put the plunges in line with the stops.







This pic shows where I relieved the back of the bracket so it wouldn't rub on the table as it moves from side to side.







This last pic shows the microswitch box mounted to the bracket and one of the spring loaded stops that come with the powerfeed.







I'm really happy with the way it works. It's very nice not to have to crank the table back and forth and the surface finish on parts is greatly improved.

Mike


----------



## wquiles

Man, very nice post - thanks so much for the detailed instructions :thumbsup:

Question: Which PF kit did you started from?


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## Mirage_Man

bluwolf, that's awesome. Great job!


----------



## bluwolf

wquiles said:


> Man, very nice post - thanks so much for the detailed instructions :thumbsup:
> 
> Question: Which PF kit did you started from?


 
I bought the 150 in/lbs PF from CDCO because it was the cheapest at the time. It was only $20 more than the 135 in/lbs model. I was told to go for the extra torque if I could afford it.

But I would check around. I think Shars might be right there in price now too.



Mirage_Man said:


> bluwolf, that's awesome. Great job!


 
Thanks Brian, I appreciate that.


----------



## gadget_lover

A great writeup.

I look forward to following the same process on mine.

Daniel


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## Clark

bluwolf,
Great post, and the humble and grateful parts thrown in make it more classy.


----------



## wquiles

Well, I finally got the DRO installed in my mill. I bought the kit from Shars only about 12 months ago, so I guess it was time to finally install it 

Many, many thanks to Daniel (gadget_lover) for this advice, and photos - much appreciated :bow:

Here is my mill prior to getting started a couple of days ago:












The kit I got from Shars about a year ago !!!











The most confidence-inspiring part of the kit :devil:






Photos from Daniel ready for reference. As you will see, although my install was slightly different in how I attached the scales, it follows Daniel's advice:






I first had to remove I few things, like my E-stop (which I still have to relocate):






Like Daniel suggested you really need to get the table position on all extremes to see what could be a problem or not:






So I found I had to move my 220-V OFF/ON switch as it would interfere with the "Y" scale:











I also had to move the oil pump a little to make room for a bracket for the "Z" scale (before and after pictures):











Lots of "Z" travel possible - about 20 inches, and to within less than 2 inches from the spindle:











Of course in a case of poetic justice I used the mill to mill some parts as I went along:






Used transfer punches everywhere to locate where to drill the holes:






In this case of the "Z" scale the scale itself is fixed, while the measuring head is the one that moves:






Also used my trusty old and cheap saw to trim the pieces (now easier to use with a hydraulic piston!):






And used my lathe to trim/adjust spacers:






Since the column gets thinner on top, there is a large gap that needed spacers:






Almost there:






Then used my trusty Noga/Interapid setup to check/adjust alignment. This was both good and bad. The problem is that all of the pieces have flex and are not perfectly flat, so you can only adjust things part of the way. I decided to also use the "resting" place of the scale and reader and ended up setting/adjusting everything up to minimize/eliminate as much as possible any binding:






Here the "Z" scale is done. I am testing it with the display:






I then made brackets for the "Y" scale. Here the reader is stationary and the scale moves:





















Important to have it "out" enough so that it clears the main column:






I got the base for the reader aligned for initial setup using a couple of Starrett pieces:











Final assembly (note use of the thin spacers that come with the kit - imperative for proper alignment and in order to minimize binding):
















Here the "Z" scale is done, and I am testing it with the display:






The "X" scale was the easiest since I don't ever use the table stops (famous last words!), so the scale was setup directly to the table, and the reader is fixed to the X-Y platform which moves with the Y axis:











Testing with the reader:






I mounted the display in the same place as Daniel. Here I am using my extremely quiet (sounds like an electric dill), light-duty air drill, which arrived when I was doing the "X" scale - I wish I had it earlier when I started the project:











Overall view (not quite done cleaning everything yet):






View with everything cleaned. I still have to bolt the cover for the "X" scale, and relocate the E-stop, but the bulk of the work is done :thumbsup:








EDIT: Here are the photos of the "X" scale cover and the magnet I used to make the E-stop a movable setup.

Here I am cutting the cover to allow easy access to the two gib screws that hold the xy table stationary in the x direction:






I also cut the top side of the cover to clear the table:











Here you can see better how the lower cut helps clear the table screw stops:






And finally, a small bead of silicone to make sure I don't get accumulated debris in between the cover and the table:











Here is my E-stop with a powerful hard-drive magnet. Once in place, it does not move while in use - not even a little bit. It takes a lot of force to move it afterwards to a new location:

















With some double sticky tape I added a tape measure to the top of the scale cover for reference (marking the center of the table as well):












Will


----------



## precisionworks

Nice :thumbsup:

Are you planning to finish the VFD sometime before the year 2020 :nana:


----------



## wquiles

precisionworks said:


> Nice :thumbsup:
> 
> Are you planning to finish the VFD sometime before the year 2020 :nana:



Barry, I have had the VFD running on that mill for many months now 

link to earlier in this thread with the VFD already installed

The one I have not started is the one for my PM 12x36 lathe - that one will use the 5HP 3PH Baldor motor I already have


----------



## gadget_lover

That looks real nice! You did an excellent job. You will definitely enjoy it. 

It takes a bit of getting used to that .0002 inch display . I usually do not need such precision, but I ended up chasing that last thou anyway. I finally got used it it and stop when I'm within .0002 or 3. Good enough for government work.

Daniel


----------



## wquiles

gadget_lover said:


> That looks real nice! You did an excellent job. You will definitely enjoy it.
> 
> It takes a bit of getting used to that .0002 inch display . I usually do not need such precision, but I ended up chasing that last thou anyway. I finally got used it it and stop when I'm within .0002 or 3. Good enough for government work.
> 
> Daniel



Thanks much dude - your installation was my inspiration and guide to getting this done :thumbsup:


----------



## precisionworks

> I have had the VFD running on that mill for many months now


My bad ... a lathe & a mill look almost alike :nana:


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## wquiles

precisionworks said:


> My bad ... a lathe & a mill look almost alike :nana:



Well, they both have rotating/moving parts, they both make chips, so yes, they almost look alike :naughty:


----------



## unterhausen

I have a dro that I wanted to put on my lathe, but the carriage is so low profile that it seems too difficult. And it would be like putting lipstick on a pig, my lathe is about as bad as it gets before round parts are impossible. 

Nice job on the mount


----------



## Clark

That SINO DRO looks kind of like the one that Quality Machine Tools installed on my Precision Matthews lathe.

When I touch it, it is 
x
0
enter
y
0 
enter


----------



## wquiles

FYI, I added a few more pictures to complete the installation pictorial.

Will


----------



## wquiles

Clark said:


> That SINO DRO looks kind of like the one that Quality Machine Tools installed on my Precision Matthews lathe.
> 
> When I touch it, it is
> x
> 0
> enter
> y
> 0
> enter



As far as I can tell, yes, they are the same DRO unit, except the lathe is a 2-scale and the one in the mill is a 3-scale unit. However, I don't know for sure that the glass scales on both setups (mill-Shars & lathe-PM/Quality Machine) are identical or not.

Will


----------



## wquiles

For some time now I had a second near-dry lubricator for my knee-mill, but the one I bought came without a way to mount the two nozzles. By chance, I ran into a seller in Ebay that was selling just the right mount for this application:











Unfortunately the thin copper tubing diameter (0.25") was too small for the clamp holder:






So of course I made a small Delrin spacer for it:





















Made a small bevel on both ends:






And voilà, all done:






Will


----------



## gadget_lover

You raised the bar AGAIN!

One of these days I'll stop trying to keep up. 

Daniel


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## wquiles

Thanks Dan 

The ultimate setup is a CNC conversion, but that is not in the cards at this time, nor any time soon - no money/time for it 

Will


----------



## precisionworks

gadget_lover said:


> You raised the bar AGAIN!


LOL 

The MQL applicators are hands down the best & cleanest way to apply lubricant. My mill has a single pump unit & the lathe has a twin pump. The amount of lubricant used is miniscule, about 1 oz in 8 hours of machining. When machining work hardening metals like Ti-6-4 or 316SS the airflow moves chips away from the tool & prevents recutting of hardened chips.


----------



## wquiles

I have been thinking (I know, dangerous!) about a potential CNC conversion to my knee mill. Pros and cons? Any links to folks who have done a CNC conversion in this kind/type of machine? Would I be able to keep my DRO/scales for positioning with the CNC system?


----------



## darkzero

wquiles said:


> I have been thinking (I know, dangerous!) about a potential CNC conversion to my knee mill. Pros and cons? Any links to folks who have done a CNC conversion in this kind/type of machine? Would I be able to keep my DRO/scales for positioning with the CNC system?



I can't help with your decision but I have also thought about a CNC conversion many times although I absolutely have no desire to go CNC. Of course I wouldn't mind CNC, it would expand anyone's capabilities & would be great to be able to make intricate parts. 

I'm just not a big fan of CNC conversions, I'm sure many of them are great but the way I think is.... think of how much you spent on your mill now, then add the cost to CNC it (if you have an idea)....in the end you could have bought a Tormach for less & would be a much better machine with much more features & capabilities. The PM-45M-CNC is only $5K & it looks like it can still be used in manual mode. Not sure if it's any good & is limited but I hear Matt has been selling quite a few of them. One customer even purchased a number of them more after purchasing the first one & evaluating it.

I don't do any real production work, many times I use the lathe or mill to do a quick cut or modify a part. Depending on how you do your conversion, I certainly wouldn't want to spend the time to program a quick cut. As long as my "shop" stays as a home shop I won't think about it anymore. Now if I ever do move everything into a shop I would definitely consider a dedicated CNC machine but I will still have conventional machines along with it.

If you do convert it, I'll definitely be following the build.


----------



## wquiles

darkzero said:


> ...in the end you could have bought a Tormach for less & would be a much better machine with much more features & capabilities.



That is "exactly" why I asked. I also feel that a Tormach PCM1100-3 would be ideal for my home shop. Now that I can weld, I can make my own stand and save "some" of the $1700 for their stand (in exchange for my labor), but at slightly over $10K for the base setup, it is not a trivial decision. Finding an used (in good shape - after all, these are hobby-type) one might be the way to go.


----------



## gadget_lover

It has certainly been done to these machines. I suspect that it might be more hassle than many expect it to be. 

I bought mine from a guy who had purchased it so that he could add CNC. I think he stopped when he realized how much work it would be. I found the X axis leadscrew nut was loosened but not free.  The large and long leadscrews + ballnuts are not cheap. 

I don't know if you need to do something special to manage the knee. Maybe a big stepper to replace the handle is all that is needed since the weight of the knee + vice + workpiece tends to take out any slop in the leadscrew pretty quick. 

A friend of mine (HarryN) has been suggesting that I add CNC controls to it since the day it came home with me. I've resisted the temptation so far.

Dan


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## wquiles

gadget_lover said:


> I've resisted the temptation so far.



Thanks Dan. Same thoughts here


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