# Mag100R. 3000L 3D Maglight



## andrewwynn (Dec 4, 2005)

Tom had suggested we start a clean thread just for this light now that it has a name, is running strong and we hopefully worked out the last bug. 

Quite an interesting road to travel for this light, starting with hacking together an 8cell and 4 cell adapter to get 12 cells shoehorned into a 3D host.. than MM making a 12 cell holder and having to upgrade it to handle 9A... we were able to run some very neat westinghouse and sylvania bulbs direct drive, but when thnigs really came to life was with the advent of incorporating the hotdriver.. because now we can use 12 cells and keep a regulated 13.1V on the bulb and use the bulb made famous by its incorporation into the USL. 

So.. now we have a light that outputs a regulated 3000 torch lumens.. and jaw-dropping is to say the least.. here are a couple pictures to get an idea across:













We are about 60' from the garage in the pictures.. of course it's snowing at the time.. the enlarged pictures look really cool with the streaks from the snow! 

The lights in the pictures:

Surefire M6.. about 500-600L.. 
Mag 85 using 9x17500 in a 2 1/2D host.. about 880 L (yes torch). 
Mag100R.. 12AA CPB power plant.. 3D host.. awr hotdriver regulator. 2500L

The photo albums are here: http://rouse.com/Mag100 make sure you click on all the pages at the top. 

Some of the bugs along the way.. battery pack resistances.. with the springs.. whoa.. we turned a couple springs incandescent by generating 4W on them.. we solve that problem... 

A minor oversight in how the switch is assembled defeated the low voltage cutout.. we managed to get the output lower than a mag85.. that was very interesting. 

The latest bug... in spite of a fair amount of effort to get the ground screw to do its job.. 9A took its toll.. and managed to introduce enough resistance to break the ground path... that was fixed by drilling the ano. of and flattening the point of the screw so it has about 6x the surface area now. (also progold is on every single contact in the light of course). 

The results.. well we didn't do any continuous runtimes yet.. but estimates are in the 7-9 range.. balls to the walls output.. it doesn't dim which of course is my favorite part, other than the output voltage is not arbitrarily set.. it's reverse engineered to mathematically achieve 3000L out the front.. that of course is an estimate but based on the best research i could find from the best sources. 

It is really spooky how quickly you get accustomed to seeing light in the mutti-thousand lumens! when i got my mag85 operational the other day (after a 'time out' for bad behavior).. i was just stunned how not amazingly bright it was.. i kept trying to figure out if the regulator was set wrong or something.. but sure enough.. 3.41A.. 1360 bulb lumen.. just like planned. 

So.. coming soon to a mailbox near you.. the ability to make your own.. one of our goals was to make it out of parts people could find and make their own.. all the info is out there for somebody carbon copy the light.. 

WARNING... 

If you choose to do so.. proceed with caution.. there are currents and capabilities with power sources and drains of this size that by their nature have associated hazzards.. Between Tom and I we have about 60-70 yrs of electrical experience.. and even with that we had hurdles to overcome and 'go back and fix it' to do.. This is not a 'basic' mod like putting an 1160 bulb into a magcharger.. however.. for the advanced modder.. following the descriptions we showed you'd be able to make one just like it.. heck you can even turn that dial up to 13.2V and make a brighter one (pointless IMO, which is why ours is set to 13.1).

So.. Q&A..

1).. will we make a turnkey of this light.. not likely
2).. will we supply the regulator used in this light.. hell yes. 
3).. well than when? goal = before shot show
4).. can the regulator be used in other lights.. from 3V to 16V.. no problem.

So.. the Mag100R.. it is an absolute blast to use... anybody with the USL can attest to the monster output.. they of course have the size advantage at the cost of some lumens and dimming.. I have the X990.. we will have to get a side-by-side soon... the Mag100R does 'feel' like an instant-on X990 w/o the yellow beam... absolutely stunning in every regard.

-awr

[edit].. the current bulb in the Mag100R is the 62138 which some of the wise elders have pointed out to me will only output about 2500L they way it is currently set up... we will have to use the 64625 lamp to achieve the desired 3000L.. possibly 3100, but 'why be greedy'.. the goal was/is to achieve 3000 torch lumen in this light.. if it's possible i'll do it.. if not.. we'll be at 2500L which is absolutely plenty fine!

major update: see page 4... the Mag100 turns 3000!

after blowing the first 64625 by trying to run at the same voltage as the 62138 in about 1/10th of a second.. re-programming the hotdriver to hold the voltage at 12.88V (mathematically 3000L out the front and 4615 at the bulb).. it runs just great.. 3000L at my command! it's pretty incredible. I don't know if i'll keep that lamp or go back to the axial bulb.. it also depends a little bit on the power plant in the light... in any event.. at least now the title of the thread really applies!


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## innerlight (Dec 4, 2005)

Congrats and thanks for all the hard work


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## Xenon (Dec 4, 2005)

Gosh! Btw are you making these for sale in the near future?


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## andrewwynn (Dec 4, 2005)

see Q1.. not likely (making for sale).. but the parts to make it possible..yes. We might make up a whole 'checklist' to make it easy to reproduce.. perhaps include it with the hotdriver kit which makes it possible.

-awr


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## Icebreak (Dec 4, 2005)

Which is better at de-icing keyholes,windsheilds and driveways? That 3000L looks formidable.


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## Phreeq (Dec 4, 2005)

I'm already saving for this mod...
Thanks for all the work.


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## cyberhobo (Dec 4, 2005)

Impressive. This would be a mod I would like to pursue if and when the parts and instructions become available.

P. S. What does USL stand for?


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## Phreeq (Dec 4, 2005)

I's the *U*ltimate *S*tealth *L*ight. A very impressive light but out of my league. 

There's an index of USL threads made by Codeman:


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## andrewwynn (Dec 4, 2005)

The USL IMO is pretty much the culmination of shrinking more lumens into a small package, and the 'yardstick' by which to measure does your light beat this standard. It is of course theirfore the catalyst behind the creation of the Mag100R.. the natural evolution of using a properly matched cell count to properly overdrive a bulb to max brightness.. to the Mag100R which uses an extra cell that is consumed to keep the output constant, not really extending runtime.. just keeping output constant over that time. 

The USL is the size of a 2D light but cut down from a 3D light to remove the switch hole and put in a far more robust switch than the stock maglight switch. 

The Mag100R bypasses the maglight switch for power with an FET that has less resistance than even the switch in the USL, and the maglight switch only switches a few miliamps.. just enough to run the regulator.

It did snow last night.. as Tom was leaving i mentioned the idea of defrosting the window with the Mag100R.. there is 3x the power with the 100R so it would heat the snot out of a frozen car lock.. probably would un-stick it in 10 seconds flat. It might be better for the PAINT on the car to use the Mag85 though. 

Once we make another or two I'm sure i'll be posting a cookbook.. it is a reasonable mod to create and after 10 or 20 seconds it does output more light than the USL, which anybody that's seen that light or knows about it.. that is absolutely a pheominal thing. 

-awr


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## VWTim (Dec 4, 2005)

I can't wait for ready to go hotdrivers. I'm think one in my Mag85 would be great. Then I can work on building a Mag100R with one.


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## andrewwynn (Dec 4, 2005)

very good thought to work up to.. the 100R is definitely a 'Ferrari' of lights.. it will not be an 'EDC' type of light... the Mag85 on the other hand.. i really love the combo of either using 9x17500s in a 3D to run or 12AA in a 3D.. (sacrifices some runtime for constant regulation.. stays at 888L start to finish!

-awr


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## NikolaTesla (Dec 8, 2005)

Hey you use as a heat shrink ray or a cigarette lighter too. Also a face or handwarmer on a cold light.





It does have some problems though.

1) Its to much fun lighting up the INSIDE of a neighbors house
2) You get a bad attitude and kinda think a Mag85 is average. A SF M6 doesn't cut it all after this baby.
3) Not quite enough run time but we are working on it.
4) Can and will cause snow blindness if pointed to close at ground in blizzard.





Other than that, It works fine. All most free to use , Rechargeable and does not eat 123's or $30 light bulbs for lunch.


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## CLHC (Dec 9, 2005)

Mag100R @ 2500~3000 Lumens! I must say. . .This light can be quite imposing when it's lit up against other "high-powered" torches! Taking notes on this Hot-Rod Mag.


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## cue003 (Dec 9, 2005)

I am on board with the 100R now, but will be on board for sure with wallet open as the runtime increases...


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## Grox (Dec 9, 2005)

I've been following this on and off, and I'm very impressed by the maturity that this project has achieved. Very well done!


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## NewBie (Dec 9, 2005)

Andrew,

Is this the same light that was now determined to actually be somewhere between 2,400 to 2,500 maximum torch lumens in the other thread?


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## nemul (Dec 9, 2005)

holy crap, i want one!


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## andrewwynn (Dec 9, 2005)

between 2500 and 3100 depending on the bulb (lamp) used, yes, and of course torch lumen.. divide by 0.65 to get bulb lumens = 'gazillion'... if you read the first post i mention this. 

(considering the output is based on where i set the potentiometer, i'm not going to set it to 2474L), hence the 'between 2400' does not apply. it'll be either 2500 if i use the lower output axial lamp or 3000-3100 if i use the higher output transverse lamp... it's really a moot point when you get up to 100+W output.. your eyes really don't see the difference it's 'holy crap' bright either way... it's not about an exact number.. it's about absolutely clobbering the likes of the mag85 and any of the lights in the typical hotwire class, which the USL or the Mag100R resoundingly do. 

I used the light for shrinkiing heat-shrink tubing yesterday.. never seen a better way it was incredible how even and fast it worked. 

It also laid waste pretty fast to a radio shack black plastic bag.. burns a hole clean through if you hold it or 'shirnkidinks' it instantaneously if you pan it around it was kind of fun. (i did this experiment outside in the snow). 

I'm in a fairly dark room right now and lit up a wall 10' away with the Mag85.. ho hum.. .. same wall with the Mag100R.. and i have to squint.. it's about 3x the light of a Mag85, quantified with a ceiling 'bounce test' where i actually had to move my meter farther away than when i usually do the tests because it put the meter in overload where i usually test the likes of Mag85 compared to the other lights. 

All in all the light is getting more refined and closer to public consumption... rooting out issues like battery pack issues and the like. I will probably post a cookbook for somebody brave and or crazy enough to copy us once we have it to the final round.

Still have to take the under load battery measurments but might wait for the 'real' batteries to get here since so far we've still been running the light on the CBP 1650s and they aren't in the same league as the 2000s that are going in... i can probably only hold regulation for 4-5 minutes with the 1650s, than it just becomes a USL in output, slowly declining in output as the batteries dim. 

The current incarnation of my Mag85 is in the same host as the Mag35.. 2D-3Bore. 9R123.. only pushing to 1.6C .. runtime of about 30 minutes. That beats my 9Cell 3D 1650 powered Mag85.. we frosted the bulb with some glass-etching solution and it really smoothed out the beam (as a test comparing to using stippled reflectors).. it's not as soft with a little more punch in the center.. in fact.. 30,000 lux just measured.. down from the 40-45,000 i typically measure from a smooth reflector.. lux well spent they are spread out into a gorgeous nearly surefire quality of beam.. and that's with an LOP reflector, just using the frosted 1185 bulb. 

It is still about 1/3 the light of the Mag100R which in a scary sense is just becoming way too normal.. lamps like the 1060 in the magcharger are starting to look like 3D stock maglights to me, it's really scary. I have to light up a stock 3D mag i have just for recalibration time to time just to realign the brain so i know that an 1111 bulb is still bright.

I have to say i'm really liking that Mag85Mini (2D).. That same host i think will work with 9 4/5 A sized cells in series vs the 3x3 R123s i have in parallel and that calculates to over 36 minutes, but in the case of CPB batteries pushed to 1/10th what they are rated to do.. they'll actually output their rated load, so i guess i know what batteries i'm buying next. I knew i'd find a nicer solution than the 3D typical Mag85.. how about.. longer runtime in a 2D, that'll do, donkey, that'll do. 

-awr


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## bwaites (Dec 9, 2005)

Andrew,


How are you getting A size cells in the Mag? Three of them won't fit without boring large enough to lose the threads in the tail.

9 4/5A cells won't go in there without coming up with some fancy/schmancy tailcap work. (That's what Wilkey did to make the original Aurora, though he used more cells, using the switch space.)

Bill


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## Lurveleven (Dec 9, 2005)

Fivemega has made some trichannel bored 2D and 3D Mags which let you use A size cells. You can put 12 x 2/3A or 9 x 4/5A cells in a 2D and 12 x 4/5A cells in a 3D.

The bore removes the threading, but since channel boring is used instead of a complete bore out, there is much of the threading left so there is no problem with screwing on the tailcap.

Sigbjoern


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## litho123 (Dec 9, 2005)

bwaites said:


> How are you getting A size cells in the Mag? Three of them won't fit without boring large enough to lose the threads in the tail.
> 
> 9 4/5A cells won't go in there without coming up with some fancy/schmancy tailcap work. (That's what Wilkey did to make the original Aurora, though he used more cells, using the switch space.)
> 
> Bill


 
Hi Bill - 

While I haven't ever physically seen what Andrew is up to, I believe that he is using the same 3-bore 2D body for this project that you aquired from me. Since the A batt is almost 17mm in diameter, similar to the "S" series of Li-Ion batts, he's got them arranged in series to make this work.

Greg


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## NikolaTesla (Dec 9, 2005)

Yep. Its a tight fit but worth the effort.

"Scotty! I need MORE power!":naughty:


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## bwaites (Dec 9, 2005)

I got it!

Thanks!!

Bill


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## andrewwynn (Dec 9, 2005)

what lurv said.. need the 3D model w/o switch to fit full size As.. with the switch you can fit 12x 4/5As no problemo. 

-awr


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## fivemega (Dec 9, 2005)




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## andrewwynn (Dec 9, 2005)

which is an excellent host for an 1111 bulb or the 35W osram.. more light than a Mag85.. 6.5A means.. on the order of 20 minutes runtime. (for the 35W).. many more minutes with the 1111 bulb.. and no regulator needed.

-awr

ps nice touch with the scores on the side FM!


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## Kevin Tan (Dec 9, 2005)

Fm, will u stop putting out these eye candies that I cant afford yet!!!! Good job on the 3.5" turbo heads and your varios other goodies. Just keep them coming in the future as I cant afford them yet...............


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## js (Dec 9, 2005)

Andrew,

I don't know why you mention that the on resistance of the FET is even lower than the contact resistance of the USL switch. The Mag100R takes a rather different design philosophy towards things than we did with the USL, and getting rid of resistance is not one of your goals. You actually intentionally create just the right amount of extra resistance in the circuit in order to acheive exactly 13.1 volts (or whatever you end up settling on) at the lamp.

So, I really have no idea why you keep mentioning the low on resistance of the FET.

And, despite what you said in your LDO driver thread, I do know a thing or two about FET's and transistors and regulator circuits, and I have a thought here:

This International Rectifier MOSFET is not designed for what you are doing. It is designed for switch-mode applications. You can raise and lower the gate of this MOSFET practically as fast as you can drive it--i.e. practically nearly instantaneously. And they have intentionally lowered the voltage needed to pull down the gate. Which means that they really weren't designing this FET to be used in the linear region of the curve.

But this is EXACTLY where you are operating it for most of the runtime!

Might I suggest that you forget the low on resistance concern and look for an appropriate transistor instead, which is not sensitive to static discharge, and which is better designed to be used in a linear circuit, and which will be better able to take abusive temperatures at the junction.

And I also suggest that you test this setup for a dozen or so full burns inside the house to scope out the heat situation. I know you are confident that there will be no issue, and feel that this is a proven setup, and I'm sorry for being so obnoxious earlier,

BUT,

I still see major heat problems in the Mag100R's future. Be sure to check out the worst case scenarios. It's one thing to do a full burn outside in freezing temperatures, it's another to do it inside at 25 C.

But enough of that. I have a friendly little "FET tech" challenge for you, Andrew. Do you know why this I.R. MOSFET you are using is called a "HEXFET"? Hmmm?

<mumbling to self>don't know my FET tech! Huh! Well I never</mumbling>


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## andrewwynn (Dec 10, 2005)

I'm always looking for alternative solutions including a better FET for the 100R application of the hotdriver which is by no means complete in design. 

I point out the extremly low resistance because in most applications the design of the hostriver is intented for (1111 from 7.2V, 1185/1331 from 10.8V).. it's meant to only be in regulation for the initial part of the run, and when the regulation is over to become as low of resistance as possible. 

There is a trade-off of an ideal design for a specific solution or a good design that works well for universal solutions.. if i can find a better FET for the high-power solution (or if one is suggested) and i can use 'the rest' of the ckt, of course i would do that. 

We are continually working on finding better solutions, including finding more appropriate FETs I've already tried 2 and working on a 3rd.,., thanks for the advice i just fired off an email to IRF to give me some ideas for a better FET for the application. I'll put a footnote in history should it lead to an improvement that it was by JS's suggestion if it helps the driver out!

The heat situation is definitely being worked on througouly.. i just got the thermal controllers today and soon the driver will have an overheat shutdown built right in. 

The hottest I've measured the outside of the switch is something like 120F.. and immediately upon shutdown on one of the hotter runs i've dissassembled to try to get some residual heat measurements and haven't gotten much higher than 115-120 for internal temps inside the driver compartment. 

I doubt there is much more than 10-15C difference from the outside of the host body to the heatsink at the worst case.. and the thermal resistance from sink to junction is only about 1.3C/W.. so even in some of the extreme cases.. like say 7-9W.. that amounts to the junction being like 12C higher than the heatsink.. which is not likely more than 5C higher than the body of the light.. so if the body of the light was 125=52C.. adding 12+5=69C.. not very close to the 175C.. 

The main point is that i'm so far away from any extremes it really is a moot point on that whole power dissipation non-issue.. however the point you just brought up is a very solid one and needs to be reserached to find the best FET. I lean toward the lowest on resistance because it is directly related to how long it will stay in regulation as well as how much voltage overhead is required, so that i can to be frank be more 'sloppy' in regards to resistance in other areas like the battery pack which is the big loser.. for every couple mohm i can save on the FET, i can have one or two less soldered joints and still have a very viable solution. 

We are quite 'not done testing' regarding the full-burn tests and heat issues.. as you know better than most.. this class of light is in a very limited fringe of portable lights and the envelope is being pushed.. i believe to an extreme to make the USL.. and now pushing a little further by introducing a NON-soldered battery pack, something that would kill the performance of the USL, but has some signficant advantages that are important to the project and the design of this light. 

We've only done the full-burn runs inside.. only tested outside a couple times.. it was too friggin cold out there for humans  Obviously heat concerns are high on the priority if i'm aiming to include a shutdown ckt for high temperature.

Hexfet.. probably because the PN junction inside is hexagonoal to increase surface area to volume vs rectangular? 

So.. sounds like you know more than implied by your 'you are crazy if you can heat sink 10W into an aluminum mass of about 500g behind held by a 60-100kg person with active blood flow'.. that is a heatsink good for 20-30W at least.. more of a problem sinking the heat from the absorbed heat from the TREMENDOUS IR coming off that lamp! It really makes the 5-7W from the FET completely insignficant. 

I know that with a tiny little heatsink i've been able to run the ckt with 5+W dissipation on the prototype, so bumping the heatsink up from that tiny cube HS up to an entire flashlight body and person holding it.. obviously it will take the heat (literally).

yes.. full-time runs especially when considering the larger capacity batteries (aiming at 13-17minutes).. might not even be possible.. hence the thermal limits being looked into (moot point if we can't get the inside up above 85C from a full-burn in a warm climate).. all this is still quite 'on the table'. 

love the signoff line.. let's here some productive 'constructive' critisizm like a suggested alternative in a D2PAK FET for either the hight power or normal power applications.. see if you can beat IRF to the punch answering my question, and i'm serious about that and saying thanks for the input on the design, i'm really seriously a newbie at this, i'm just taking other people's input and turning it into what i need for my application and so far it's been working, why should i stop? 

-awr


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## NikolaTesla (Dec 10, 2005)

Hey lets definitely not stop here. My entire career is in switching power supplies for megawatt applications. But little bitty toys like model electric cars and flashlights can work for a few minites of a battery on 100 watts or less just peachy fine on the simplest of LDO circuits at minimal cost. No sense in over complicating it. For sure PWM is more efficient. But linear regulators have been around for a long time. Current limited, voltage regulated, under voltage protected can work either way at these minute power levels any day any way guys and you know it. A Maglite tube can sink a few watts off of a device for the short run times these things work at and be perfectly reliable and relatively easy to construct. Come into my world of 10 to 30 megawatt 13.8 KV or higher industrial supplies and ya sure- switchers(PWM) fancy patented fiber optic controlled redundently protected circuits are the only wat to go. But toys that run on 14 volts or less? I really prefer KISS engineering. So what if we waste a watt or 2??. People can toss 6 123 cells in the trash after 20 minites just to get 500 lumens? Not me. You buy it. And get a few spare $30 light bulbs with it to. ANY ONE OF OUR LDO REGULATED flashlights are a FAR better deal. Take it to the bank and save money, So whar if it gets a little warm? Man it cost 3 cents to recharge then cells and 1 cent to waste the power on the regulator. So what??


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## Kevin Tan (Dec 10, 2005)

NT, u sed wat i wanted to say. If we cant get them from WH and nobody wants to do it then we will still keep on blowinng enpensive bulbs. Wat awr is doing is to save me alot of bucks on blown bulbs. So get on with this simple but inefficient ( or not ) and do the efficiency number later. I dont mind wasting 5 minutes of runtime for a fully regulated 85 running 40 minutes on 9x 17500 lion. So awr keep up the good work but can u be a just a bit faster!!   

The future looks VERY bright with a 85 shining it!!!


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## paulr (Dec 10, 2005)

This basically sounds like a soft start scheme, to take off that initial spike of high battery voltage when the batteries are fresh off the charger. After that, the circuit tries to "disappear". The battery pack still has to be carefully matched with the bulb, giving a limited number of good combos. 

The way I see it, the PWM regulator is more like a Downboy: as long as the input voltage is higher than the desired output, you're good to go. That gives lots more flexibility, for example if you want to use lithium ion packs, or if you want to use a 6 volt G6.15 bulb on 9 or 12 AA cells, or whatever. Lithium ion cells fully charged are at 4.2 volts and you can discharge them down to maybe 3.2 volts. The voltage tapers down, there's not as much of long flat section like NiMH has. So PWM is better for that too. Finally, the M6R regulator is able to provide soft start -every- time you turn on the light, and also gives a battery-low warning flash. It's not a big circuit--it's built into the SF A2 and into JS's M6R pack. Just because it has a microprocessor doesn't mean it should be thought of as complex or unreliable. Every G-shock wristwatch has a microprocessor with even fancier programming and yet is more reliable than any analog watch (throw your G-shock and your Rolex against a brick wall a few times and see which one still works).


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## andrewwynn (Dec 10, 2005)

Actually.. it's far more advanced ckt than 'soft start'.. and with the right combo of bulbs and batteries.. will provide 1% regulation for 95% of the runtime.. it's quite amazing to watch. There is some amount of matching involved, but the reality is.. there are so many bulbs and so many battery combos.. i could list at least 30+ without breaking a sweat.. it's a big part of why developing the hotdriver in the first place. I have used it with a voltage differential as big as 5+V on some pretty high-power bulbs.. but it's not hard to stay within 1.2 of course using NiMH.. basically it boils down to.. use the # of cells that is optimal for the bulb you are using and 'add one'.. the regulator consumes that extra cell keeping the output constant start to finish.. and since there is no current or voltage spike at the beginning every time you click it on.. the bulb is many times less likely to instaflash, besides of cousre not having the 'extreme overdrive' with fresh cells. 

What does that mean? means that EVERY bulb can be pushed harder than the 'quantized step' of cells.. i.e. in the virtually EVERY combination where you can not match a # of cells to a bulb.. the regulator will let you fine-tune to 7 1/3 cells for example... or in the case of the 35W osram bulb.. 5.83Cells.. which works incredibly well! 

And in all other cases.. you can push the bulb harder than with direct drive because you can set the regulator to the max the bulb can safely take, you don't have to concern youself with the 17% overdrive of fresh batteries!

It's a misnomer about he 'flat output' of NiMH vs LiON.. Lion realy discharges from 3.7 to 3.5.. that is a pretty flat output.. NiMH start life at about 1.2 and are dead at 1.1.. 

That's a 5.4% change for LiON and an 8.3% change for NiMH. NiMH have a LOOOT more current capability than LiON.. that's where the charm of NiMH comes into play.. can't even consider running the 100R on LiON.. needs the current of NiMH. 

Let's put a head-to-head comparison.. 

My solution for the M6.. 6x17500 and my LDO regulator.. that will get you 33.32W into the lamp.. from 35.28W at the batteries.. 94% nominal efficiency.. but.. i get approximatly 35-45minutes runtime.. if i use 6xA cells to have an NIMH solution.. that nets me 28-30minutes.. using full 'A' cells..

Since those require a mod to the tail cap to get the bigger cells to fit.. i can use 6x 4/5A cells vs the 9 3/4A cells that are in the M6-R and it gets me 22-24 minutes.. which is on-par with the M6-R IIRC. The M6-R is an 11.88 (ish) WH battery pack.. the pack most closely resembling it that i woudl make would be a 14.4WH pack.. 20% more energy with maybe 20% more runtime, so very similar efficiencies. 

The first test with the R123 pack for the M6 i ran an 1185 bulb for 28 minutes.. now.. the efficiency of the regulator was fantastic but the capacity of the cells sucked (I only got 75% of the rated capacity.. and only pushing the cells to 1.6C).. however.. who cares.. 28 minutes of 751 1185-white lumen from an M6.. is it worth it? no dimming.. less than 1/2 a cent to recharge the pack.. i'm leaning toward yes.

PWM is more complicated to design and build was my contention, not less reliable. I'm not an EE, i'm a 'smart enough to get in trouble' type that knows a lot about a lot of things and manages to get in the middle between an idea and people that can use it from time to time.. takes a lot of help from others which i accept freely, and perks are often involved. 

Back to Kevin's mention of efficient.. in the 100R.. efficiency will probably be about 95% to 97% on the regulator.. and 90-92% on the whole system incl. the battery pack.. not 'inefficient' by any stretch of the imagination... but in the cases of the mag85 and 1331 bulb.. being able to avoid instaflashing and having low voltage protection for your battery.. in addition to typical efficiencies definitely over 98-99%.. it's really an oversight to consider an LDO an 'inefficient' solution.

I've said a bunch of times that PWM and switching circuits are definitely in consideration for a 'round two' of the hotdriver http://hotdriver.rouse.com but for round one.. and with the stellar efficiency numbers and ease of programming, setup, design.. LDO is definitely the way to go.. somebody got a better design they can impliment not just talk about.. let's see it, please.. i would not mind just incorporating your driver into my light if you can make me a better one for a better value! 

-awr


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## js (Dec 10, 2005)

AWR,

Look at regular BJT, PNP, NPN, etc. TRANSISTORS, not Field Effect Transistors, is what I was suggesting. It was only a suggestion. It may be that you want a FET. But even then, another FET might be better than this one, although it might not. I was just saying that this FET was designed for SMPS applications. Like what NT does for a living.

NT,

Cool! Very cool. We have some crazy powerful power supplies here at work too. Like 600 amps 120 volts DC for the Dipole buss. They are MASSIVE! I know the Transrex uses multiple phases to smooth things out right from the get go, but I'm not sure about exactly what the internal cricuitry is doing.

But in any case, aren't you the guy who was way down on incan technology, saying that it was stupid to waste 75 percent of your output as I.R., and proclaiming the virtues of HID? Am I wrong about that, or wasn't that you?

Because HID, with its ballast circuitry, is anything but KISS philosophy technology.

And here you are proclaiming the non-issue of wasting even more heat in a linear circuit?

OK. Fine by me!

Kevin Tan,

I'm not saying that AWR shouldn't provide these! And I have no doubts that there will be no issues with the 35 watt-ish class and lower.

AWR (round 2),

Look, I don't want to argue with you anymore about the heat dissipation situation, I am only making a suggestion that you run a fair number of full burns inside. That's all I said. The experimental results will tell which of us has a better understanding of the heat issues involved. So bring on the experimental evidence, I say.

More than that, though, you really want to explore the worst case scenarios here because it is entirely in the realm of possibility that this would happen (full burn, 25C ambient), intended or not. You may not be selling TK lights, but you are still going to be selling the parts. I trust that you will take your responsibility in this to heart.

As for the FET tech bonus question, close but not correct.


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## Icebreak (Dec 10, 2005)

fivemega said:


>



Now that is a thing of beauty. How does he always seem to know exactly what to build? It has it all. Wonderful build. Capacity. Current. Almost free power. Lamp options. Man.

AWR -

Going with A NiMh cells, yes. This is good. Quite a while back I accidentally bought some CBP 1150 1/2 A cells. Was so pleased I got some Intellect 1200s. Had another mistake occur. I keep seeing A as AA so when I mentioned CBP 2500s to you, I'll admit I thought they were AAs. So they are A cells? Great. 4/5 A for your light? Yes again, I think.

_".. more of a problem sinking the heat from the absorbed heat from the TREMENDOUS IR coming off that lamp!"

_May I try? I've advocated a reflector design (not mine) with an OD shaped to the ID of the head. I have one in this little project light I've been working with. Absolutely great at sinking absorbed IR to the head.

This little light has a lamp many many times more powerful than the stock. The reflector is not designed for it (although the parabolic is decent) but because it sinks so well to the head the mod is viable, not perfected yet but viable. [switch and tailcap spring aspire to become filaments]

So, how about this for a 100W light? An extra cylindrical dough-nut sink with ID matching the OD and shape of the reflector...AND...an OD matching the ID and shape of the head. This will cause the IR absorbed heat to path like this: lamp/reflector/ExtraSink/head/body/batteries. Might even help with battery efficiency in snowy environments.

Inside an ORB RAW there is a spacer/sink that is designed for a different heat path but looks a little like what I'm attempting to describe.

fivemega will probably have these built by the time I get done typing because I'm convinced he's telepathic.

-------------

- Jeff


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## andrewwynn (Dec 10, 2005)

Hmm.. IGBT might be a nice option.. The main reason for sticking with FET is the very low overhead i really have.. 

I would not expect to get much lower than 100mohm from a bipolar.. which means 875mvolt drop.. the problem is that to be in regulation i have to estimate about 60-90 mohm from the battery pack.. so.. total circuit of maybe 75-110 mohm.. that means i need 1.15-1.18V/cell to maintain regulation. 

The GP2000 will hold 1.15 at 10A for about 1650 mAH.. 11.28minutes at 8.77A (2500 calculated L output). If.. i had a bipolar that even dropped .1V, my concern is does this push me out of regulation too soon.. although divided by 12 cells that is not a huge swing in the v/cell.. i think i'll find me up a bigarse NPN... it's definitely worth a shot. 

Actually i was not likely saying that incan sucked 'cause of efficiency.. just heat and reliability.. in a lower-power (not over driven) incan situation, my LED lights i've built output 70% more lumen/watt... but the new incan stuff i work on outputs 2x the lumen/watt that my LED stuff does.. more importantly.. more watts in smaller volume.. so up to SIX times the lumen per cubic inch.. that is pretty much the exact why i started getting into hotwire.. when i realized it will be years and years before LED tech can come remotely close to the output per cubic inch of hotwire.

I would never had said that HID would be a simple solution but with 100+Lumen/W compared to the theoretical max of about 40 with hotwire.. it's holy cow efficient.. I love my X990, it's the most practical light i have.

We are a lot more on the same page than you think re: heat issues. The reality is that in the higher output lights.. they are using the same cells to output the same technology lamps.. the stored energy is the same so... there is a natural balance.. the hottest light i probably ever tested (skip probably).. the hottest light i ever tested was running an M6 w/o hand-holding to cool for 11 minutes before the Lithium cells went belly up and it shut off .. the exterior case was 180F! 

When i've run a full-length run on the Mag85 with 9x17500 cells the outside bezel was about 160F.. 140 on the head and 125F on the switch.. very toasty warm no doubt about it.. even the 100R has never been that hot in my presence. I'm pretty sure it can get that hot.. only Tom has done the straight shot start to finish tests.. i'm going to be putting the the thermocouple probe holes soon so i can get a live test very soon.

All the advice is taken with careful consideration and you are not too off base with having some serious concern.. and because of yours and bwaites obvious connection to very similar powered light, i'd be a fool not to have both ears on when listening to said advice... 

I think that the fact i'm incorporating a high temp cutout at 85C (recommended max for the ICs inside).. will cover any problem with the circuitry ever getting to hot to handle.. and with any luck there is a high enough thermal resistance to the outside that the switch will never get over about 130-140F by that point.

I'm still working on also incorporating a fuse on the battery pack, and yes i do take the responsibility of the hazards of this light very seriously, and don't mind at all having one of the most serious concerns brought up more than once... If i'm right and the heat from the ckt is a non-issue.. my safety ckt will be more or less just that.. in-case you managed to turn it on inside something non flammable.. the heat would rise to the point it would just shut off.. or if the ambient temp is enough to make a difference, etc.

If you are right.. the safety ckt i'm building will shut down the light if you attempt a full-run you might only be able to use it in 6 or 8 minutes spurts, that would just be the way it goes (no getting around the laws of physics sometimes). 

The experimental full-runs are definitely coming.. i dont know how i can do an elevated ambient test yet since it's winter and the warmest place around is like 70F, but i'll be doing some room-temp full-length tests very soon, including voltage, power, temp.. that 'bring on the evidience' is coming shortly. 

-awr


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## andrewwynn (Dec 10, 2005)

4/5A is 2000.. A is the 2500.. i have 24 of the 4/5 in the shop for use in the 100Rs.. i will likely get a batch of 12 of the 2500 As once we have the Mag100R running with the 2000s.. i will work on shoe-horning the bigger cells into a 3D host to get the runtime up to about 17 minutes i think i calculated.

Neat idea with the heavier mass reflector.. FM has a design for the big reflector that the head IS the reflector! It only changes the time to reach steady state, not the final temperature but it will run cooler to start with.. and on a light that is meant to be used in spurts that is a neat idea. 

The final design of the battery pack does not have springs nor need the 'hack' to fix the springs.. it will probably use silver bars for the stack-to-stack contacts in-fact.

I don't think there is much getting around the light getting quite warm.. like i mentioned in the last post.. just no getting around the laws of physics sometimes. 

In the case of this IR and reflector and heatsinking.. since the lamp really doesn't care that its hot (hell it's like 5800F).. it's probably best there is an insulating layer of air between the head and the reflector! i typically measure reflector temperatures well over 200-300F.. i don't really want a good conductive heat path to my hand from that! 

Im pretty sure you are right about fivemega.. he wrote me to ask me about an idea for a light he wants to build that is spooky similar to a light i have on the back burner. 

-awr


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## Icebreak (Dec 10, 2005)

andrewwynn said:


> FM has a design for the big reflector that the head IS the reflector!


Excellent.



andrewwynn said:


> The final design of the battery pack does not have springs nor need the 'hack' to fix the springs.. it will probably use silver bars for the stack-to-stack contacts in-fact.


Silver. Very nice.




andrewwynn said:


> In the case of this IR and reflector and heatsinking.. since the lamp really doesn't care that its hot (hell it's like 5800F).. it's probably best there is an insulating layer of air between the head and the reflector! i typically measure reflector temperatures well over 200-300F.. i don't really want a good conductive heat path to my hand from that!


Ouch. Point well taken. The head on my little project light gets very hot, untouchable at the 4 minute mark. But it's 17 inches long so plenty of safe area to grip.


andrewwynn said:


> Im pretty sure you are right about fivemega.. he wrote me to ask me about an idea for a light he wants to build that is spooky similar to a light i have on the back burner.


Heh heh. Spooky, yes. The good kind of spooky.

--------------

- Jeff


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## js (Dec 10, 2005)

AWR,

Excellent! Thanks for hearing me out. You're probably right about us being more on the same page than I had at first assumed. It's just that I know that the Mag100R is going to get unbe-freakin-leivably hot when you go to the 2000 mAh 4/5A's. GP2000 I assume, yes? They will definitely hold better voltage under load than the CBP1650's, and they will do it for longer. So you get the continuted heating from the 100+ watt lamp, plus the greater heating from the heat drawn away from the MOSFET, plus whatever heat gets generated in the batteries, and just keep that going for minutes on end, and you'll be holding the damn thing by the very extreme end of the light wondering if the whole thing is going to just spontaneously catch fire, even though you know it won't REALLY catch on fire. But still, you're standing there thinking "Holy *^&*(())!! This thing is HOT!!!" More mass will, as you say, slow the process down a little, but not a whole lot. And then, when you reach end of cycle, and turn off, and set the light down, you're thinking "Whew! Glad that's over. Now it can start to cool down. And yet when you return to fondle the light again after a couple minutes, you are shocked to discover that, no, it is still heating up. Crazy! Then you realize that like a hot rock in a sauna, the reflector is continuing to transfer heat to the body, because it is still so much hotter than it.

Plus, realize that while, yes, the filament is running at 3400 something Kelvin, the glass envelope, and in particular, the pinch where the molybdenum ribbon conductors come through, can not take more than 520 C. And here's a scary sentence, both for the USL and for Mag100R, and any other Aurora class light:



> Convection cooling is generally adequate for lamps of up to 30 watts - up to 50 watts if the lamp housing is cleverly designed. At higher wattages, forced cooling with a fan must be provided, especially if the lamp housing is very small and narrow



(From "Tungsten Halogen Low Voltage Lamps Photo Optics" by Osram)

Granted, we aren't running these lights continuously, steady-state. But still.

So you know, I'm sitting here imagining a USL, but running hotter, and for the whole run, and for longer (with the 4/5A's), and then adding 10, 8, to 3 or 2 watts heat from the FET, and my gut, and my head both tell me the same thing: that heat is going to be an issue.

But we didn't create lights like this because we were cautious (although I am naturally cautious). So, go for it! And good luck. But I'm not at all sure that you will be able to get away with this. If you do, yee haa! You can go around saying (in a sing-song voice) "js said it couldn't be done! js was so wrong! NT and AWR are the cool-est!" (Or whatever strikes your fancy).

As for my HID comments, they were directed to NT, not you. I just seem to remember him being rather down on incan technology at one point or another. Not that you can't like both, 'cause you can. And not that you can't change your mind, 'cause you can. Just curious and thought it had relevance to the KISS statement.


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## NikolaTesla (Dec 10, 2005)

Well js I may have been down on hot wires because of overall efficiency yes.

But they are simpler to KISS engineer. I only have one good instant on arc light (MaxaBeam) and its a lot bigger and more complex than a MagLite.
I would never own a drop deap huge incan crate like a thor. I do have a very pinpoint bright Mag solution (MiniHID) but the instant on wall of light in the Mag package interests me. Also a vastly improved SF M6 with a WA1185 and regulator rechargeable. Still a lot of IR loss in all these lights but the solution for a hot MagLite is dirt simple if the electronics/light engine will hold up. It may not be the wisest move to go thru the entire battery run just to see if it will melt. My X990 or Maxabeam handles that task just fine. But a near pocket size regulated 100 watt flashlight IS going to happen. And a M6 with a brighter better bulb than that over rated 500 Lumen $30 bulb SureFire provides. It will work. It may have time limits on thermal and power but if its fully rechargeable without any inconvient disassembly that will more than make up for limitations. It sure was neat when that M6 crapped out due to over heated cells half way thru its run. Genuine new SF 123 cells too. We will push the envelope further in 2006 than what was done in 2005 because battery technology is improving and everyday we try, we discover more. A lot because of failure analysis. There are plenty of MagLite size HID/arc lights on the market now but none yet seem to be instant full on. My prediction is that will pass in time. This next year too. That 24 watt HID light would really be a great gain in efficiency it over the Mag100R but it takes a go 30 to 50 seconds to come on full brightness. The incan has better color and especially when over driven. So there is no perfect light yet. Yet we gain more each day as we learn. :huh:


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## Alin10123 (Dec 10, 2005)

Sweet yea! post directions on here when you get everything worked out. Also... if you could provide the parts or say where to get them, that'd be great.
hehehe this is sure addicting.


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## andrewwynn (Dec 11, 2005)

JS.. oh your incite and experience are quite welcome.. I was not ever blowin' off your input.. but was trying to say you are missing some important parts of this particular equation. 

There are things in the equation you were not aware of and still possibly not.. i just did a measurement of the Mag100R under load to get a sense of exactly how much power/voltage is dissipated/lost on the battery pack and what remains for the controller to handle. 

Well.. with the 1650 battery pack it really is as i've been saying a completely moot point.. here are how some of the figures work out: 

after a few minutes.. putting on the order of 9A through the lamp at 13.2V ±.05.. I was measuring:

13.373V on the pack.. 1.114 per cell.. that means a loss of 461 mV on the pack.. leaving 173mV left for the driver to absorb.. tht means 4.15W on the battery pack and 1.55W for the FET ckt.. it should be quite obvious that this is not remotely a problem regarding power dissipation.. there is 10-20x the amount of power coming from the lamp into the body of the light! 

(the battery pack measured about 51mohm average)

Now.. it will be a different story when i get the 2000s running.. 

right now the math works out like this:

with 1650 cells.. i'd have about 5 minutes regulation and 9-10 minutes before shutdown.. basically it's a USL with overload and undervoltage protection and the first 5 minutes flat output.. 

with the 2000 cells.. more like this:







10-11 minutes of regulation and 13 minutes total runtime.. those are fair estimates.. i've been using 10A for my draw when estimating voltage, so the extra Amp should make the numbers line up nice with reality. 

Interesting is that the so-called 2500s can only deliever 2100 mAH at 10A.. the 2000s can do 1900.. 10% more energy from 16% bigger cell.. not sure i'd bother.. i kind of don't mind the automatic heat control of limited qty of power on-hand, and it would be quite a challenge to get 12 full As into a 3D host! 

GP2000s yes.. have two dozen waiting for me to stuff into a host to do the full-power runs and see if things meltdown or not. Fortunately.. it really is not a whole lot more than the tried and tested USL in total power.. 12/11ths the power for maybe 13/12ths the time.. or 20% more total energy into the system.. if the USL got up to 140F.. if i can keep the Mag100 less than 160F i will be happy with that (remember i plan to have the innards metered to 185F and shut off if that temp is reached.. which will help a great deal in hot ambient conditions). 

It is amazing to watch the temperature CLIMB on the outside of the light for a minute or two after shutdown.. that's my favorite weird thing.. 

Well.. in some incarnation it can certainly be done.. obvious from the operational prototype.. can it take the 'real heat' when the 2000s are attached.. well yes that's a very interesting question and thanks to bwaites for planting the seed that became the over temp shutdown ckt.. i certainly don't mind a clam head to keep me from going 'too crazy'.. 

I did just figure out though.. that 30mohm of difference means an entire minute difference in the regulation on Mag100R.. so goes back to trying to keep the resistance as absolutely low as possible! 

Thanks for pointing out the wowsa about the 520C.. well something a bit magical about that KIU socket and the airspace behind the reflector.. i've opened up a Mag100 immediately after shutdown to my amazment measure only on the order of 130F inside.. (a little tough to get that measurement around the 300-400F lamp!).

I think you know there is a pretty good chance i'm going to pull this off as planned... that with the caveat.. the thermostat just might not allow full-burns.. which.. i really couldn't care less.. i never expect to use my Mag100 more than 1 minute or 2 minutes at a time anyhow.. it was fun the other day holding it on for 5 or 6 while my dad was snowblowing though. 

N.T. is a funny guy you should talk to him in-person sometime.. if you get him excited about something you might actually have to cover your ears.. he gets pretty loud, seriously.. It's funny since he has more incan lights than anybody i know that he'll slam the technology.. and he has a lot better luck than me not blowing bulbs.. but he doesn't use LiON as much as me... 9x17500s in a clean (i.e. KIU socket) host will blow a 1185 in a milisecond and it doesn't matter if the cells are rested a week. 

I really like incan for what it is.. i like it MUUCCHH better now that it's harnessed .. that 35W osram at 7V is beautiful i can't wait to get that running one more time.. i was stunned that it fit into the carely stippled reflector and that was a stunning combination.. 'felt' just like an 1185 but a little bigger flood, color and lumen absolutely on-par.. within like 2% in brightness.. not as efficient, (taking 44W vs 38).. but do i really care? it's Mag85 bright in a 2D host.. with quite reasonable runtime! (well in-fact VERY similar to the runtime in my 3D hosted 9AA 1650). 

So.. no holds barred.. thanks for a lot of paving the way for me and continued advice including admonishment if necessary (or even if it just seems like it). I don't mind the safer than sorry philosophy. 

-awr


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## andrewwynn (Dec 11, 2005)

PS.. looking at the chart.. it is absolutely amazing to me how well the USL compares.. using far lessor cells and just absolutely the finest construction to overcome the forces that be to try to keep it down... consider:

1650 cells.. well realistically.. 1500mAH.. x 1.1V x 11 cells = 18.15 WH.. compare to the 2000GP cells.. 1900 mAH x 1.14V x 12 cells = 26 WH.. 

sure the 100R will definitely output a more constant output, but not that you could possibly notice for the first 9 minutes!

The main advantage IMHO is really two fold:

1) swappable battery packs.. with a light that lasts 10 minutes.. nice to have a spare
2) no voltage spike at the start.. fewer insta-flashed bulbs and you can use it instantly after pulling off the charger (in-fact the CBP cells prefer it that way.

well prefer being hot.. not sure if it matters how they are warmed up.. i do notice that if i turn on the 100R for like 2 minutes.. and pause a while.. that when i turn it back on it will have higher voltage than the first time.. which is bizarre. 

so.. the KISS award definitely goes to the unbeatable low resistance circuit in the USL.. the 100R left the 'kiss' behind about a month ago .. still keeping it more simple than a switcher, but inclusion of soft start, of high-temp cutout.. not sure either of those will end up in the stock hotdriver.. don't think they are required.

I will make a cookbook for how to make a 100R at some point if it's safe and practical.. there is inherent danger with this light.. i heated my floor up to 125F today just testing the light for about 3 minutes.. it's pretty wild stuff.

-awr


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## js (Dec 11, 2005)

AWR,

Hmmm. I might have to conceed the point right now! I expected that the GP2000's would really run the Mag100R for around 17 minutes. But you say 12, eh? And you're saying that power dissipation at start won't be near 10W, eh?

OK. I'm on board. That should work, me thinks, even inside, even with a full burn. Sorry I doubted your setup. I was thinking one cells worth of voltage at 9 amps = about 10 watts. But since you are running at 13.1 volts, it isn't one cells worth of voltage. Not at these loads.

Right?

As for the GP2000 and CBP2500, you are giving all your NiMH batteries a .1C slow charge (i.e. a "dumb" charge) for 16 hours, right? If you aren't giving them their break-in charge, that may explain the low capacity for the 2500's. I found those to have pretty darn close to 2400 even at high draw rates. But mine had green shrink wrap and could have been from another production run.

As for the GP2000, I found mine to be more like GP1850's. And the CBP1650's are more like CBP1500's, as you know. The only company that tells the truth about their capacity seems to be Sanyo.

As for the pinch temperature, I've never been that worried about it, as we are only talking about 15 minutes runtime maximum. Whereas the Osram publication is thinking in terms of lighting that will be turned on for hours at a time. It's still a rather scary sentence to read, though, isn't it?

As for the USL and swappable packs and other design considerations, I left all that stuff up to Bill. But we both felt that it was no great loss to have a battery pack that was glued in place for three reasons:

1. No resistance from a pack connector and the extra lengths of wiring needed.

2. We didn't want people to run it more than 12 minutes in any one hour anyway.

3. Simpler, cheaper design with non-removeable pack.

NT,

Ah yes. The HID startup time lag! I can imagine that that is a bit of a pain in certain situations.

And yes, well said: there is no perfect light, no perfect lighting technology. Not yet anyway. But we do gain a little bit every year.


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## andrewwynn (Dec 11, 2005)

the 17 was the estimate with the 2500 cells.. but even that is more like 14 minutes.. so a moot point i wouldn't even bother.

power on the FET will *momentarily* be very high at startup.. 3V x 9A =27W... probably for less than 10-20 seconds.. it should be down in the single digits within a minute.. those GP2000s are nutso though.. there is a chance it will still be too high.. that it's only working so well because the lower voltage on the the 1650s.. still a 'work in progress' that's for sure. 

Thanks for the note on the break-in charge.. actually i haven't used the 2000s yet.. i was only going from the charts on CBP. 

on the CBP site the show their charts which seem to be pretty much in-tune with reality, of course they call it the 2000 but it is good for 1800-1900 etc. 

I agree with all the reasons for going non-removable.. i really can't find fault with the USL, ultimate it is. 

I almost went with sanyo batteries, but didn't like the cardboard sleeves (ironic since they are undoubtedly tougher) 

back to the temperature and air cooling... yikes.. on the case of the oscarbeam (http://oscar.rouse.com) it requires 1500 CFM cooling. 

So..the playing field will change a bit with those 2000s, but ironically it will be the relatively high resistance battery pack that will save the day in the case of the 100R.. It is basically planned that the pack will drop 1/2 the voltage i need to get a reasonable voltage drop on the regulator.. 

Stay tuned basically.. 

I agree on the no perfect light.. that's what makes it fun. 

-awr


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## js (Dec 14, 2005)

AWR,

I came to my senses and realized that you definitely do *NOT* want a PNP or NPN transistor in your circuit, because you want it to regulate at very small voltage drops.

Thus, you definitely *DO* want a MOSFET. Sorry. I'm stupid.

However, what I was basically saying before is still correct: this MOSFET that you are using is not designed for a linear circuit. So, you might check out other MOSFETs, with maybe slightly higher on resistance, but which are more appropriate for your circuit. Because you really are asking this MOSFET to dissipate a lot of contant power for the start of the run, when it is desinged to handle pulses. It may still work just fine. Just a suggestion.

Good luck and sorry for the radically bad advice to use a PNP or NPN. Bad idea. Bad idea. You do want a MOSFET.


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## andrewwynn (Dec 14, 2005)

I got a reply back from International Rectifier with some really good advice ... they suggested i use the alternative FET that i've already picked as the replacement to the one i've been using.. they did basically say that the extremely low on resistance models are not really meant for linear control, but will work with the right circuitry. 

I need to get the thing on an o-scope.. i believe what is happening is that the mostfet is going through and on/off cycle at about 5000-7000 Hz.. i can hear the regulator whine like a mosquito.. well.. with the latest incarnation, not so much, but it deserves the checking into.. i don't think it's turning all the way on/off since i don't have a capacitor on the output, and the voltage swing is like 200mV (1msec)... 

The Micrel driver is specifically designed to regulate FETs and it's doing a very good job of it. 

I will be very interested to see how much hotter the thing gets with the GP2000 cells.. it is a non-issue with the 1650s.. i've gotten Mag85s hotter than the Mag100. 

I will be working on some very creative heat management solutions to keep the temperature as manageable as possible. I'm even considering crazy ideas like tiny little fans like they use on laptops. (obviously not maintaining water tight integrity, so that's pretty low on the list).. 

Other options.. putting the driver and/or FET at the tailcap... get the heat from the driver on the opposite end so they meet in the middle.. get the heat more evenly distributed so it all gets hot evenly rather than the head melting your hand off.

another option.. introduce some more resistance into the battery pack.. crazy, huh? but a 50 or 100 mohm resistance could mean all the difference in the world.. bump the output down 50-100 L so the current is lower.. etc etc.. We are taking this one step at a time.

Oh.. the latest incarnation of the driver is working exceptionally well! I will probably program in about a 500msec startup ramp.. it's logarithmic so it is at 63% in 100msec.. and follows the normal logarithmic curve... it's soo nice to see on the bench, the prototype no longer puts my bench supply into current limit every time i turn it on! 

My 'test run' of my battery holder went swimmingly well.. quite possibly with irony involved.. the test platform is the M6.. i have 6x17500s shoehorned into an M6 in the prototype of the holder for the batteries that will go into the Mag100.. of course.. exactly 1/2 the length using six cells vs 12.. and set up as parallel vs series... doing some trial and error found out that 0.1ohm resistance is working very well to get about 6.6V to the lamp.. it's really sweet! Nice low-brow solution... nice also that with 'cheating' the size by about 3/16 i can get 22WH (7.2V, 3.3AH) battery pack in there... not for the faint of heart though.. need to cut that 3/16th off the inner cup on the tailcap.. (not changing the interface or function in any way).. a slight change in the amount of shock absorbing on the battery pack perhaps.. but it is still spring mounted from both ends.. that light really is amazingly shock absorbed.. i think when i'm done making the upgrade for my client i'm going to look into getting one of those M6s myself. 

-awr


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## wtraymond (Dec 21, 2005)

Hey Neighbor,

I haven't been reading much into the incan threads until lately, but I'm intrigued with your Mag100. I've just spent hours reading through this and other threads including some of the USL threads. Obviously I've missed out on most of the fun but I'd like to chime in if I could.

It seems likely that the new FET recommended to you is one of higher resistance than the current proto. And you've now puposely introduced some small resistance in the battery pack to address over-heating issues which are likely to become more of a problem with the GP2000 cells. Wouldn't it be better to introduce the resistance downstream of the regulator thereby increasing the time in regulation? Shouldn't you be trying to decrease the resistance in the battery pack? Have you tried ProGold on your battery contacts?

I know that the common theory is to provide mass for the heat to be absorbed into, but I think it may be prudent to consider removing as much mass as possible from the head of your flashlight. The head will reach maximum temp faster, but will start cooling immediately on shutdown. Even during the run, the fins on the head (you do have a finned head - I saw you buy one) will work better to dissipate heat from less mass. Heat your cookie sheet in the oven at 400F. You can take it out then handle it with bare hands in just about a minute. The handle of you're flashlight, however should have as much mass as possible. Any residual heat not dissipated into the air is going into your handle and your hand. You want to slow the process of heating that handle as mush as possible. This shouldn't be a big problem when you're only running about 12 minutes maximum.

You can thermally isolate the head from the body as well. HA3 on the threads at the body/head junction should provide better thermal resistance than stock as it's thicker.

Putting the FET in the tailcap is going to play issues with your quick-change battery packs.

You could install all this in a '4D' Mag. The first cell would simply be another large heatsink that would screw on at the head of a 3D Mag body. You wouldn't even have to make it as big as a whole D cell, just cylindrical, like an extension just for heatsinking.






I look forward to seeing and reading more.


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## andrewwynn (Dec 21, 2005)

whoa' that's an awr-sized post. 

the FET is for all intents the exact same resistance.. all the ones i've considered are between 3 and 4 mohm. 

Actually.. there is a balance to be had with where resistance lies.. the GP2000 cells are too high of voltage, and i want to reduce the voltage coming into the regulator, so i don't have so much voltage drop going across the FET. The GP2000s have so much more capacity than the 1650s.. that it's a moot point to 'perfect' the resistance in the bat.pack.. 

It's a trade-off but i would rather have a higher resistance pack that i can 1) assemble in 5 minutes and 2) swap out of the light and 3) swap out a bad cell if/when one goes bad.

LOL.. saw me buy a finned head :-D actually haven't sent it in yet but you are on-top of things i think that finned head is going to be a key element to making this work properly. 

Very smart on the head thermal isolation.. also in the works... maybe using a non-conductive gel of some kind.. we have other ideas in the works as well. 

True on the harder to change bat packs if the FET is in the tail cap.. but not necessarily.. I would work out some kind of contact solution that just had a sliding contact to get to the gate on the FET.. the problem would be can i get the feedback to work properly, etc. 

I'm actually looking into making a 4D version.. but using the LiOND cellsl emilion is selling.. 

you are onto something with the diagram you made.. it's already in the plans to go that route if needed to dissipate heat and keep the head heat off the handle (it doesn't bother me if the head is 160F if the handle is 110F or less). 

I do want to make the light small as possible, so there just might be a trade off of continuous runtime.. i.e. the overheat ckt might shut it down after 5 minutes if that's all it can take continously.. that won't bother me too much either.. this is not meant to be a start-to-finigh light.. 'short controlled bursts' is more the 'MO' of this type of light. 

thanks for the detailed input, good stuff.

-awr


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## Pila_Power (Jan 18, 2006)

...that's the end of this thread?? 

I hope things are still chugging along.


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## redbird (Jan 19, 2006)

I agree with PilaPower...time for an update. Take a few moments off from the Nano's and bring us up to date...


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## andrewwynn (Jan 24, 2006)

Two operational Mag100 testers.. one with 'mark 6' and one with 'mark 5' regulators.. the regulators are set to go to press tomorrow.. mid-Feb is when the production of the drivers will be full tilt. Mind you.. we aren't making turn-key of the Mag100.. but cook-book concept is pretty much already laid out and some people are underway making their lights now. (getting the modamag holder threaded etc). 

-awr


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## VWTim (Jan 24, 2006)

Sounds great, once again I can't wait for these to be available. I have a 3D HA3 host on the way just for this light


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## andrewwynn (Jan 24, 2006)

the light needs to be channel bored to make the Mag100.. 3 or 4 bore will do it. 

-awr


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## VWTim (Jan 24, 2006)

andrewwynn said:


> the light needs to be channel bored to make the Mag100.. 3 or 4 bore will do it.
> 
> -awr




Well now you tell me  I wasn't sure on the battery config, and only had money to get one light done, So If I have to use another host it's no big deal. What cells did you decide on...the GP2000's in a FM holder?


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## andrewwynn (Jan 25, 2006)

the Mag100s as they stand are 12AA.. mine is hosted in a 2.5D FM 3-bore and Toms is hosted in a 3D FM 4-bore.. both use the modified mogamag 12AA->3D holder.. mine is a mod^3mag holder .. modded modeed modamag holder.. since it's also like 3/4 inch shorter to fit in the 2.5D. The threaded rod solution is an absolute must.. a FM 3x17670 type older series with some variation on A cells is a prospect but the GP2000s that are planned are likely going to need an adaptation on the driver to not self-destruct... the batteries are too hot to handle.. that said.. i recommend the 3-bore because it's more adaptable to future options. 

The current incarnation of the Mag100 and the only one i can recommend to use with hotdriver is the 12pack of CBP 1650s.. the same the USL uses but 1 more cell to deal with the overhead of the driver.. it does not run hot.. it's like 98% efficient... great solution.. we are working on sub-A sized solutions but heat dissipation is an issue, so can't say what the outcome is 'til more testing is done.

-awr


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## Lmtfi (Jan 25, 2006)

I am sincerely looking forward to this becoming a reality. Good on ya.


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## PGP (Jan 25, 2006)

andrewwynn said:


> the Mag100s as they stand are 12AA.. mine is hosted in a 2.5D FM 3-bore and Toms is hosted in a 3D FM 4-bore..both use the modified mogamag 12AA->3D holder
> 
> -awr



I did the same as VWTim & have Modamag boring a 3d with HA-III for me to use in the Mag100. These hosts should work if you are using a Modamag 12AA>3D holder.

Patrick


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## VWTim (Jan 25, 2006)

Hmm, maybe I just should get it bored afterall......Thanks for hte updates.


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## Kevin Tan (Jan 25, 2006)

Nice to see progress on this thread.


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## OddBall (Jan 25, 2006)

I have a question for ya Andrew; what modding needs to be done with moda's batt holders? I'm getting him to make a 12AA to 3D and getting a 4bore done too , probably next week sometime. 

Just thought I'd ask cos if there's a major alteration needed I'll see if Moda can do it for me. 

This batt holder and bored body is specifically for a 100W light.

Cheers Bigears!!

Tim.


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## andrewwynn (Jan 26, 2006)

the holders need to be modified a fair amount.. springs are useless.. i've developed a system to thread the rods and use nuts to compress the pack together... 






here is a picture of the top. 

here is the photo album

I've taken the already assembled model and fixed it but it'd be easier to start from a 'DIY kit' which MM will sell. 

If you notice i've also put in a charger jack on the longer '3D' model (mine is 2 1/2D and no room for the jack, so i just alligator clip onto the nuts at the top). 

So.. procedure.. thread all the rods with 6-32 thread.. put a solder bump on all the contacts and either sand them all flat on the same plane (move in circles on a flat sanding pad of some sort).. or on the bottom pads.. put a solder blob on and drop a battery cell on quickly to press it flat into the shape of the neg. contact. The nuts are 4-40 nuts that are re-tapped to 6-32. 

I will be making some battery packs ground-up based on this method but so far the MM ones work very well as a host. 

IF MM has a 6-32 die he just might thread the rods before solding and not solder on the springs (very key.. springs can't be part of a 100W equation!). 

-awr


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## k-2 (Jan 26, 2006)

AWR

Thanks for the inspiration on the 100W flashlight.
I'm using an FM 3-bored Mag 3D with an FM 17670 series holder and
12 4/5A GP 2000's. Again using your idea, I only use one holder. The
GP 2000's then need magnets between them to make contact. Kiu
socket of course. And the Osram 64623. This bulb is rated for 1000 hrs.
I do not use a regulator, and this bulb seems to take the nominal 14.4V
no problem. The 64625 and the 62138 both melted within a few seconds
of use. Don't know how long the 64623 will ultimately last, but this thing
gets so hot so fast, that it's used in short spurts only.

Keep up the good work.:goodjob: 

k-2


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## andrewwynn (Jan 27, 2006)

get a finned head from 'mac'.. it will dramatically drop the temps.. yes you will not get away with the 138 or 625 direct-drive with those cells.. they will hold over 15.6V for a couple minutes. a straight run with the GP2000s should last like 12-13 min. 

looks like the only setback from using the 623 (which the 2004 osram catalog lists as 2000 hour life).. is the color temp. 

100W is a fun thing, huh? With enough pressure the GP2000s will contact cell to cell.. the trick is the bottom needs a little thickness. i solved with solder bump on the neg contacts of the board.

here are some re-rates:

nominal voltage on the GP2000s will be 14.75 getting 14.47 to the lamp... 
that's 9.24A, 133.7W, 5395/3507L for 2111 hours.. guesimated 3184CCT.. 

The reality is that the lumen numbers are too high.. 40.3L/W is not likely.. but nontheless.. crazy bright.. cool! 

-awr


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## andrewwynn (Jan 28, 2006)

Ok.. here's a nice update.. after twice having to 'give up' my 100W regulator because i was so behind from my illness.. I finally got another one running and this time even for the first time included the high-temp cutout.. that is so cool... i tested it by heating it up with a hot air gun.. and in a matter of 3-4 sec it shuts off.. only to turn back on if and when the temp is low enough.. the way that heat 'soaks' into the likes of this light.. there will be a LOT of hysteresis.. I will have to fine-tune the resistors to get the cutout temp set exactly and i'm imagining i'll have to do an underwater test (yikes) to get the temp precise. 

Another neat update.. since the carley reflectors are not only six in existence anymore.. i took the gamble to install the 'low stipple' out of my M85 into My Mag100.. it's the most beautiful beam i could even imagine.. knocked the max lux down from about 80klux to about 50klux... but makes for the most incredible beam i could ever hope to have. 

HOLY crap it's nice to have the 100Wr back.. it's just a stunning piece of lighting... makes me feel good for all the USL owners about to get their lights since they are so similar.. meaning.. hey.. you could do the same with the carley stipple. 

I reamed the hole out in two steps.. i used a drill bit about 11mm diameter first.. than a 15/32 bit.. which is about 11.8mm.. the lamp is 11.5 but it's a little bit thinner where the bulb ends up in the hole so the 11.8 is actually a little bigger than it would absolutely have to be, but man it looks custom made for that exact lamp (well i guess it was i suppose). 

It never fails to amaze me that when you turn on the Mag100 inside.. it almost always causes a squinting reaction like if you go outside in the sun.. big wow. 

-awr


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## cyberhobo (Jan 28, 2006)

Well done!


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## VWTim (Feb 1, 2006)

Excuse me if this was covered and I missed it, what type of bulb holder are you using? If a Kiu is the way to go I'll order another to keep on hand. Or is it going to be a custom Kiu type with the driver installed?


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## andrewwynn (Feb 1, 2006)

KIU socket .. has to be the new taller model to fit the regulator.. also it's 'tweaked' because the standard config is too tall.. can't use the standoffs.. has to be shortened a bit.. if you don't already have a KIU and want to cookbook a Mag100.. wait for the hotdriver to ship and get the 'high power' option it'll be an extra $10 and includes high-temp cutoff. http://hotdriver.rouse.com shows the driver.

-awr


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## VWTim (Feb 1, 2006)

So for a Mag100R don't get in on Kiu's current buy? Wait till he has some setup specifically for the hotdrivers? I just don't want to get stuck waiting on one part when everything else is available.
Thanks,


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## andrewwynn (Feb 1, 2006)

ask if they are the 'new' design he modified to fit awr's driver he should know what is meant by that.. litho123 actually arranged it.. they have more depth inside. 

I will be selling complete KIU kits with the hotdriver installed, so if you don't have the KIU when you by the driver you'll be able to buy the complete switch ready to drop right in. 

Some funny 'growing pains' with the Mag100 right now.. it has the 'mark 7' beta driver in it and is the first one with the temp sensor.. which works well, but is set too low.. the light will blink on and off when the temp is too high.. i went for a non-hysteresis mode .. so it will blink off when the light gets too hot.. and blink back on when it cools enough.. about 1/2 Hz in the current incarnation.. but it's shutting down about 20-30F too soon i need to swap some bias resistors.. it was nice to have it kick in in testing though.. better too low than too high. 

-awr


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## Pila_Power (Feb 6, 2006)

Hmmm, I say drop all other projects - NANO included - and get me some of dem dere hotdrivers which are souped up to the maximillionth degree!!

I have my KIU sockets ready - I hope the hotdriver is relatively easy to install.... you gonna offer them as a "populate yourself" kit Andrew?


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## diggdug13 (Feb 6, 2006)

Sounds like this baby is gonna be an awsome light.. nice work Andrew.

Pila, bite your tounge....lol hold off on the nano.. dem is fightn words...lol

doug


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## OddBall (Feb 6, 2006)

hehe but mines in the next round (6) so I kinda took a calculated risk there Dougie 

I just wish there were three or four AWRs out there... maybe he could score some of santas elves in the off season.... hmm....


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## diggdug13 (Feb 6, 2006)

yea mines in the next group (6) also....lol


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## andrewwynn (Feb 6, 2006)

well as nano guys know, time has been a little divided by hotdriver and bam, but my first priority is still to finish nano, having like 6 weeks flat on my back was very not cool, but it's not long for batch six, aim to have them done next week. this is batch 5 week. 

-awr


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## andrewwynn (Feb 20, 2006)

The Mag100 turns 3000!

(lumen that is). 4615 at the bulb... 

We sourced some 64625 osrams.. and with the same ratings for power, life, etc.. we had guessed that we could run them at the same voltage... 

We GUESSED WRONG!.. the first one lasted less than 1/2 of a second. 

So.. i mathematically calculated what it would take in voltage to get 3000L out the front.. it worked out to 12.88V.. so guess what my regulator is set to now!

12.88V of course. 

The beam is a little bit 'egg shapped' and i have to adjust the height of my KIU socket since the beam only focused with the o-ring not inside the head... the filament is 3mm higher and i think i didn't seat the the bulb flush on the bottom. 

So.. quite a nice success.. it actually leads to another nice project i expect that will come out of it.. the 'USL+'.. making a hotdriver that fits in the USL that will allow the use of the 60625 lamp and 500 more lumens of output!

-awr


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## VWTim (Feb 20, 2006)

Very interesting, now what do I need for my forthcoming Mag100 project?  Also do I remember hearing some of these bulbs are too big to fit in certain aluminum reflectors? Or was that just fit into WA "small hole" reflectors.


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## andrewwynn (Feb 20, 2006)

I had to bore out my carley reflector to fit the bigaazz osram.. either osram lamp is 11.5mm dia. so they match in that regard. 

the jury is still out on the match between batteries and driver and lamp. I suspect that the 12.88V will be too low to run from 12 of the GP2000s.. but maybe that would work out ok with 11... saves $4 on batteries! with the CBP1650s though.. they could only stay in regulation about 1/2 the time with the old lamp.. with this lamp, i suspect not only longer regulation but longer runtime as well! 

The beam is not as 'beautiful' but extremely practical with the light stipple reflector. I wouldn't want to use it with less than HOP.. it's a very wide filament and even with the stippled reflector it's very oval.. smooth, but oval.


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## andrewwynn (Feb 20, 2006)

first 'full burn' with the hotdriver (production) and the new lamp:

180 bezel temp
136 head temp
155 below head temp
140 at the button temp
120 middle of the handle temp
100 tailcap temp.

I didn't have 100% charge on the battery (more like 90-95 so i didn't bother timing).. this run was more of a proof-of-concept since it's the first time i used the micro DPAK FET in the mag100.. it ABSOLUTELY needs the secondary heat sinking! in the first trial the heat sink fell off during installation.. the FET got so hot it de-soldered itself! 

this time when it turned off i wasn't positive if it was from temp or from bat low, but seems it was bat low since i was able to turn it back on immediately.. with the far lower Vbulb (12.88 v 13.2).. the bats get pulled down a lot more, and it runs in regulation almost the whole time.. i did not notice any dimming whatsoever.. (of course the math says that is not the case.. it dims 25% at the end, but possibly like my M66.. maybe only 10-20 sec. of dimming before 'lights out'). 

So.. any copy-cats out there.. i think you might prefer this lamp... or at least hold back the throttle a bit on the other osram 100W lamp, so it will cycle the bats a little lower and stay in regulation a little longer. 

I will be very interested to see how this works out with the bigger batteries, i will likely have to go back to the other lamp to keep the FET power under control, but this seems to be a much better lamp match for the weaker 1650 cells.

-awr


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## NewBie (Feb 21, 2006)

andrewwynn said:


> first 'full burn' with the hotdriver (production) and the new lamp:
> 
> 180 bezel temp
> 136 head temp
> ...




Is this one 3000 lumens from the bulb, or 3000 lumens from the flashlight?

They are quite different.

Oh, and are those degrees Fahrenheit?


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## LEDcandle (Feb 21, 2006)

The 64625 is rated 3600 bulb lumens, so I'm guessing 3000 is torch.
As for temp, I'm hoping that is fahrenheit but.....!


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## NewBie (Feb 21, 2006)

LEDcandle said:


> The 64625 is rated 3600 bulb lumens, so I'm guessing 3000 is torch.
> As for temp, I'm hoping that is fahrenheit but.....!




If that is driven at spec, for 3600 lumens, the torch lumens would be more like 2430 lumens, with a great reflector and a two sided AR borofloat lens.


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## LEDcandle (Feb 21, 2006)

This is what andrew said in the first post :-



andrewwynn said:


> "it's reverse engineered to mathematically achieve 3000L out the front.. that of course is an estimate but based on the best research i could find from the best sources.
> 
> the current bulb in the Mag100R is the 62138 which some of the wise elders have pointed out to me will only output about 2500L they way it is currently set up... we will have to use the 64625 lamp to achieve the desired 3000L.. possibly 3100, but 'why be greedy'.. the goal was/is to achieve 3000 torch lumen in this light.. if it's possible i'll do it.. if not.. we'll be at 2500L which is absolutely plenty fine!
> 
> ...



The 64625 is rated for 3600 lumens on some spec sheets I've seen, so I'm guessing based on the way Andrew calculates it, there is a loss of 600 lumens in this case. 

I'm wondering where the lumen figures of the 62138 came from though, cuz from what I've personally seen so far, it is not rated by the manufacturer.


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## NewBie (Feb 21, 2006)

LEDcandle said:


> This is what andrew said in the first post :-
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Nearest I can tell, the 62138 is using a hard driven filament already, with only a 25 hour lifespan as it is.

I take that back, 2,800 lumens out of the bulb.
http://www.osram.co.uk/pdf/displayOptics/DO_Catalogue_2004.pdf


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## andrewwynn (Feb 21, 2006)

andrewwynn said:


> The Mag100 turns 3000!
> 
> (lumen that is). 4615 at the bulb...
> 
> ...



Newbie.. this was mentioned.. If i only say lumen, i've determined its' best to stick with torch lumen. It already was at 2500L like the USL, so making mention of 'up to 3000' of course must mean torch lumen!

boorah! and manoman it's nice and white too... just like the 1185!

-awr


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## andrewwynn (Feb 21, 2006)

62138: 2800L
64625: 3600L

(right from the osram catalog).

both at 100W, 12V, 8.33A.

They are both rated at 50 hrs.. i've stumbled into a CCT of 3200 for the 138 and 3400 for the 625. 

I run the 138 at 13.2V.. that rerates like this:

16% overdrive, (power.. the ONLY thing that makes sense).. 
8.78A (that calculation is low.. it pulls more than 9A). 
116W (again.. low because it's based on the amps)
3909BL, 2541 TL.. (probably both a little low.. the amperage is higher than 're-rated'
33.7 Lumen/Watt
15.9hrs
3298 CCT
10.7% (397K) from melting (not actual melting, just based on the CCT value)

the 64625 looks more like this: (run at 12.88V).

12% overdrive, (power.. the ONLY thing that makes sense).. 
8.67A (that calculation is also probably low.. i have to measure amps yet). 
112W (again.. low because it's based on the amps)
4615BL, 3009 TL.. (probably both a little low.. the amperage is higher than 're-rated'
41.3 Lumen/Watt (pretty much the hypothetical max, so likely not quite so high)
21.3 hrs
3477 CCT (very close to mag-85 white!)
5.9% (218K) from melting (not actual melting, just based on the CCT value)

So.. a very promising lamp as you can see.. there are power dissipation issues to work with, that's a for-sure thing. I will probably have to use my hand-glued FET to the aluminum solution like i have been.. fortunately that has already been worked into the plans for the 'high power' solutions with the hotdriver.

The 625 lamp is a LOOOOT more finicky than the 138 as can be imagined.. i wouldn't even ATTEMPT to run that lamp without a precision regulator! not even worth the effort!

In any event,.. i dddun ddiid it.. finally found a combination that would make the title of this thread be true.. i was really bummed when i found out that i had the wrong number for the base lumen on the 138 lamp and had to de-tune my output numbers to the tune of 500L. 

It is absolutely stunning the difference.. i can't wait to get a side-by-side shot to show it off... though the 625 is obviously eggy shaped.. it has a whole lot more punch for throw.. although the 138 has a much much softer more beautiful beam for closer work.. i would prefer the 138 for my everyday light, it puts out a perfect cone of light!

-awr


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## OddBall (Feb 21, 2006)

Andrew, just for insane brightness and awe-inspiring throw, what bulb and reflector combo do you suggest? Or is this very question being worked out as we type?


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## diggdug13 (Feb 21, 2006)

By the sounds and the beamshot I've seen on this thread this looks like a retina burning light that can has an alternate use of peeling the paint off of an house....lol


how hot does this get when holding?

Doug


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## NewBie (Feb 21, 2006)

andrewwynn said:


> 62138: 2800L
> 64625: 3600L
> 
> (right from the osram catalog).
> ...




It is too bad the lumens are spread all over the place, with the filament of the 64625 making it's lumens from a much wider area, which means it cannot be focused nearly as well, resulting in a large hotspot.

64138
2.4mmx1.8mm
Area:4.32mm

64625
4.2mmx2.3mm
Area:9.66mm

I remember way back, on the Mule/Aurora, Ginseng was working with both the 64138 and 64625. Tvord and Bwaites were also messing with the 64625 in the USL and with the turbohead.


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## andrewwynn (Feb 21, 2006)

when we tried to run the 64625 at 13.2V and it lasted 0.2 seconds, we figured out very quickly why that lamp is not used in the USL. 

In reality the 625 has more throw than the 138.. it's also a lot whiter and a lot brighter. The thing missing from your 'area' equation is the direction.. the 625 is only 2.3mm tall, and the reflector focuses on the vertical aspect of the filament more than the horizontal.. it does make for an oval beam because of the width, but it's amazingly brighter in that area. I hope to get a head-to-head arranged this weekend... when you look at the filaments.. the 138 looks like this: /\/\/\/\ and the 625 looks liek this: |||||| (much tighter arrangement..the wires look almost touching.. so the hot-spot is a solid color.. the 138 you can see the lines. 

It is also a lot more finicky. I am still working on what match of parts will work just right... I have to make a difference version of the driver to put up with the abuse of the 625.. it just might be a call for the winny driver. (especially with the 4/5A cells). 

I have a bunch of 625s on the way and a bunch of 138s in stock, there will be more experimenting to go... right now i have the 138 back in my Mag100.. i really like the even 'surefire-like' beam i get.. 50klux or so.. similar to Mag85 but 3x the area.. absolutely amazing and wonderful. 

-awr


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## NewBie (Feb 22, 2006)

Andrew,

I'd really like to see both beams in the same photo at the same time when you get a chance.

It would be great to see them on a distant flat background, I know ya'll have some really nice big barns up your way...


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## andrewwynn (Feb 22, 2006)

that chance will be most likely Friday! and yes of course.. we all would!

I think there is a building not too far away with a nice big neutral cinder block wall.

I can tell you that when i put the 138 up against my M85.. the M85 is waaaay whiteer.. when i put the 625 up against the M85.. they are about the same.. it's amazing! 

-awr


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## andrewwynn (Apr 8, 2006)

update! i've cranked up the '625 to 2900L.. 12.75V and we'll be seeing how long the bulb will last.. it was not happy at 12.9, but there is a chance the voltage was mis-set that time.. i have one of the 625s in a 3D host and one in a 4D host.. the 4D has the heavy stipple and the 3D has the light stipple reflector.. 

At the moment, the 3D host has the alternate 1/2 power lamp.. the 64610 50W lamp and it's quite amazing! roughly 1300 torch lumen.. it handily bests the Mag85.. not quite as white though.. i don't know what the baseline CCT is, so not sure what the final CCT is either.

I'm extremely happy with both 625 solutions.. 11xGP2000 or 4x4D LiON (the 4D since i can't take out 1/3 of a battery uses a tailcap reisistor so the FET doesn't have to take all the heat).. simple is simple. 

-awr


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