# Flashaholics possibly in more danger during an emergency



## brightnorm (May 29, 2005)

Saw this TIME archive article about 9/11. Here's the excerpt which may have special significance for us.

_...."The terror triggered other reactions besides heroism. Robert Falcon worked in the parking garage at the towers: 'When the blast shook it went dark and we all went down, and I had a flashlight and everyone was screaming at me. People were ripping my shirt to try and get to my flashlight, and they were crushing me. The whole crowd was on top of me wanting the flashlight.'..."_ 

TIME ARTICLE

Quite alarming, especially if it is a typical reaction

Brightnorm


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## Size15's (May 29, 2005)

*Re: Flashaholics possibly in more danger during em*

I have been in two situations where I decided not to use my flashlight because I was concerned it would cause panic (or not help the situation).
The first was when I was on a crowded tube (central line) and the train stopped in the tunnel and pretty much all the lights went out. It was summer and extremely hot. We were stopped for about 10-15 minutes. A woman fainted but it was so packed she couldn't fall to the floor or be moved a seat so the people around her had to hold her up.
I figured that my SureFire would be only better illuminate the situation we were in and not actually help. There was nowhere to go and nothing to see. So it stayed in my hand switched off but ready.

The second situation was in a nightclub (one my housemates are at right now in fact) that was gassed by a CS canister of quite some size or similar since it filled the whole club in a couple of minutes. The houselights didn't come on but the moving dance lighting stopped as did the music. Knowing the club and its exits it was only once I was helping my date down the fire exit stairs that I used my SureFire. If I had used it on the dancefloor I felt it would have caused further panic. People were either collapsing (like my date) or in a daze (likely because the music had suddenly stopped and it was really difficult to breathe). My first reaction was to leave and drag her with me. It was strange - I'm quite tall and tend to take an overview of crowds - I could see something was wrong because people were coughing and rubbing their eyes and I couldn't see why. I could feel my throat itching and saw people collapsing. It wasn't until my date pretty much collapsed into me that I realised something was very wrong. My urge to get out was strong. I was one of the first down that fire escape. It was so badly lit I really needed to use my SureFire so we didn't trip on the stairs.

Just because you have a flashlight doesn't mean it is always appropriate (or even safe) to use it.

If you have something most people don't but that they need in a situation of crisis and/or panic it is reasonable to assume that people will try to get it for themselves.

Most of us carry at least two flashlights. If you find yourself in a situation where your flashlight services are needed you may like to start off with the smallest, dimmest light to judge the reaction. A Photon or ArcAAA or flashlight on low output may be more useful then overwhelming high intensity output.

Having the only flashlight is like having the only bottle of water, or having the only blade etc.

Al


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## NelsonFlashlites (May 29, 2005)

*Re: Flashaholics possibly in more danger during em*

Wow, I never thought of this angle before.
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ooo.gif


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## PhotonWrangler (May 29, 2005)

*Re: Flashaholics possibly in more danger during em*

This has occurred to me before but it's still startling to see it in print. The "last bottle of water" is a good analogy, Al. Desperate people will try desperate measures given the circumstances, so it makes sense to choose where and when to reveal your survival devices.


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## IsaacHayes (May 29, 2005)

*Re: Flashaholics possibly in more danger during em*

Size15's, wow, how did someone get a hold of a CS grenade? That's pretty scarry. One of my friends found an old mace can in his uncles house, but if you read the back it said it contained CS, and not pepper spray! It was like police riot control. Very strange & rare!

If your'e in a large crowd with an emergency I would be leary of using my lights I had with me, but if it was just a few friends or more of a controled event then yes it can help.


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## JasonC8301 (May 29, 2005)

*Re: Flashaholics possibly in more danger during em*

Wow, never thought of it in that light. Seems like a situation where the E2D or Surefire M6 with crenulated bezel can come in handy for self defense. Can smash a few eyes and take a few people out and have them back away (let alone the light from the M6 to take them down.) 
If they want my light, they better earn the right to take it by taking me down or taking me with it. 

Hence why I sometimes apply the term "Use the light when the situation warrants it."


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## Size15's (May 29, 2005)

*Re: Flashaholics possibly in more danger during em*

I found a cached copy of an article on the night here

Al


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## Sigman (May 29, 2005)

*Re: Flashaholics possibly in more danger during em*

(Complete article "here".)

Very intersting thread and glad you posted it. I'd never really thought about this before. Yes, I like the "last water bottle" analogy as well!

I took an "emergency prep/survival" course once. It was held at one of the local "outdoors/hiking/camping" clubs. They are typically "anti-gun", however the instructor (and she stated she did not want to "argue" or "get into the politics" of owning and using weapons)...stated a gun of some type should be considered. She said that the situation can go bad REAL FAST at times. She was referring to those who "are prepared" (with supplies) and those "who are not"!

It indeed is sad what people will do in an emergency situation, but indeed "survival and basic instinct" kick in.

You're the hero Al! Seriously sounds like you handled yourself and your date well! You get respect for that! Beats screaming "save me, save me" and wailing your hands and running away from "those in need"!

Again, good subject!


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## brightnorm (May 29, 2005)

*Re: Flashaholics possibly in more danger during em*

Depending on the situation you may have no choice but to use (one of) your lights, ie in a pitch black escape scenario where you are not familiar with the terrain. (Fortunately, Al knew the club layout and kept his cool). I do know that some flashaholics posted that they were able to help evacuate NYC subway cars without panic during the most recent blackout. The excellent "last bottle of water" analogy may apply only to situations of true desparation and panic. 

Perhaps this is a good time to discuss strategies of light use in emergencies. I felt quite unsettled after reading that article because I thought I had my emergency strategy all worked out, but now I'm not so sure. Al suggested initially testing reactions with a relatively modest light. What other methods might we use to assure our own survival while holding that "last bottle of water"?

Brightnorm


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## 357 (May 29, 2005)

*Re: Flashaholics possibly in more danger during em*

Some people tend to be at their worst in emergencies. Others are at their best. Its the tough choice. I've had one situation where the lights went out and ONE person grabbed for my light, but it wasn't a riot like described above where MOST were grabbing.


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## CyByte (May 29, 2005)

*Re: Flashaholics possibly in more danger during emergency*

[ QUOTE ]
*brightnorm said:*
Saw this TIME archive article about 9/11. Here's the excerpt which may have special significance for us.

_...."The terror triggered other reactions besides heroism. Robert Falcon worked in the parking garage at the towers: 'When the blast shook it went dark and we all went down, and I had a flashlight and everyone was screaming at me. People were ripping my shirt to try and get to my flashlight, and they were crushing me. The whole crowd was on top of me wanting the flashlight.'..."_ 

TIME ARTICLE

Quite alarming, especially if it is a typical reaction

Brightnorm 

[/ QUOTE ]


edited to be more PC

I carry something else for protection and a knife for close combat. In a panic situation or riot remember even if the lights are off and you have a candle and someone doesn't have it. They assume you have even more and in a SHTF scenario DEFEND yourself and your necessary tools.


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## supes (May 29, 2005)

*Re: Flashaholics possibly in more danger during em*

Very interesting article. Thank you for bringing it up, brightnorm. I would have never even thought the snatching for the flashlight in the desperate situation would occur, but now that I think of it, it could happen in an instant. This reinforces my thoughts on carrying at least 2 lights like Al said. I fortunately haven't been in that type of situation where everyone was stuck in an emergency but now I have a better understanding of what to do with the decision of whether or not to use the flashlight. This just shows there's no such thing as being too prepared. When SHTF, no one can help you except yourself.


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## TonkinWarrior (May 30, 2005)

*Re: Flashaholics possibly in more danger during em*

This topic is very interesting... and it ties into the recent thread re flashlights for Self-Defense, etc. I believe that general consensus there was that lights, alone, are not suitable as weapons -- but they make good TOOLS to supplement and facilitate the use of weapons.

The examples here tend to make the case that one ALSO needs a weapon -- any weapon -- as part of an ad hoc on-body "tool kit" for SHTF situations when Big Brothers' agents aren't right there to maintain order. Regrettably, such anticipatory, self-reliant (tactical) thinking ("What would you do IF...")is frowned-upon in certain jurisdictions... and countries.


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## enLIGHTenment (May 30, 2005)

*Re: Flashaholics possibly in more danger during em*

A cheap and disposable light would be a handy decoy in questionable situations. Turn on an XNova cheepie, if the situation turns bad, throw the light away from your intended escape route. With luck, the people who in a state of panic will go for the light and clear from your escape route.


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## idleprocess (May 30, 2005)

*Re: Flashaholics possibly in more danger during em*

I've always thought it best to exercise discretion in any sort of emergency situation.

It seems that some sort of generic "emergency training" should be taught in schools beyond the spartan (and nearly pointless) fire/storm/earthquake/etc drills they do now. At least subject people to some emergency-type conditions in a controlled environment so they have some experience dealing with the panic and sizing up the situation quickly.

"SHTF?" _Stuff_ Happens Too Fast?

oh, wait - _Stuff_ Hits The Fan. Got it.


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## Lightraven (May 30, 2005)

*Re: Flashaholics possibly in more danger during em*

Interesting. "In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king." Or in the darkness, the guy/gal with the flashlight is a target.

In any emergency, it is best not to reveal your capabilities before necessary, whether weapons or survival equipment such as water, flashlights, money, etc.

If you need to use your flashlight, here's what I would recommend (for what it is worth):

1. Act like the Big Dog. Who has flashlights? Cops, security, employees. You have a flashlight in a dark environment, so pretend you are calling the shots and soon you will be. Use a command presence (stand tall, loud confident voice, crisp, easy-to-understand orders) and light up any trouble makers for the crowd to see. "Everybody quiet down and don't panic!" Dominate with light as we say. 

2. Help others. Shine your light towards an exit or towards an injured person. People will rally around the guy with the flashlight if you aren't selfish (I would hope). I believe people will allow you to keep the flashlight (even protecting you) if you are not just looking out for yourself. You become a de facto leader.

3. In super dangerous environments, such as riots or mass panic, where order goes out the window, use your flashlight in brief flashes and keep moving. It will be harder for people to know who has the light and where you are. This is what I do to close distance on criminals in dark environments.


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## KevinL (May 30, 2005)

*Re: Flashaholics possibly in more danger during em*

Lightraven, great insights, I'm trying to commit them to memory so I have them in the event of an emergency. 

On my recent travels I had two lights on me, and I usually drew the smaller one - the KL1. Since I had quite a lot of downtime in transit I thought a lot about various situations I encountered and some of it involved thinking about the psychology of light. The KL1 seems to be more accepted as a little toy by curious folks, because of its dimunitive size. They universally acknowlege it as bright but consider it harmless. It's not the "You carry that?" reaction I get with friends and my U2. 

There were also situations where I did not pull the light despite the fact I thought I could use it. One of them: I was looking for an address number - pasted on buildings that I THOUGHT were occupied. Perhaps they may not have been - but why run the risk of pissing someone off by blasting their dwelling with a Surefire P61? (that incan is horrendously bright to the unenlightened living with small 2AA flashlights). I just let my eyes adjust or shaded a LED light with fingers. The lesson? Sometimes it may actually be better NOT to pull it out.


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## brightnorm (May 30, 2005)

*Re: Flashaholics possibly in more danger during em*

Lightraven,

Thank you for your professional insights. I will think about them and try to commit them to memory as Kevin is doing.

Brightnorm


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## Size15's (May 30, 2005)

*Re: Flashaholics possibly in more danger during em*

Lightraven,

Excellent post!

Al /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif


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## koala (May 30, 2005)

*Re: Flashaholics possibly in more danger during em*

We were out at night on a trip in a far away suburb. A friend was driving and another friend on the passenger side, I was sitting at the back. We are not very familiar with the place and thanks to the directionless driver and navigator we got lost.

The friend on the passenger side unfolded a map he wanted some light but the rental car cabin light was blown.(incan sucks /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif It was pitch black, no side lights at all, I had to let him have my Arc-AAA. The moment he switch it on, the light had reflected via the white map and the car was going offroad...

Luckily for us, we're only cruising. Little that we know our eyes have already adjusted to the night inspite of the headlight. Hard to believe the lil light actually light up the whole cabin and able to cause disorientation to the driver. Dangerous stuff, but it was allright afterwards, I cup my hands over the beam and read the map behind.

-vince.


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## chmsam (May 30, 2005)

*Re: Flashaholics possibly in more danger during em*

A couple of thoughts that have worked for me are 1) knowing before you need to use them exactly what your lights and other gear can and cannot do and how to control them absolutely (avoiding situations much like Koala's post). This is a really, really good justification for playing with all of your toys often and a lot.

And 2) knowing what people in a crowd are capable of. This is vitally important. I have learned a lot about "crowd dynamics" and have experienced more beyond what the books and classes teach you. The classroom stuff is a good beginning but crowd behavior is best learned by observation and experience. Example: go to any large sporting event, watch carefully both the best and the worst behavior you can, and then divide the best behavior by 10 while multiplying the worst by 100. That's getting close to what you can expect in a problem. There is a thing called Anomie Theory that basically states that when all the regular normal rules and situations that people are used to are removed, they breakdown easily and quickly. They plain old do not know what to do, become very upset, and might become violent or even suicidal. Most but not all people in a bad situation want to have someone in charge. 

The person(s) in charge need to be able to know when to get organized and moving, but also need to realize that there may come a time when being nice is dangerous. Most importantly, this would not be the best time for on the job training (a fire is a lousy place to learn how to use an extinguisher and a riot is a lousy place to learn crowd control). Practice and training make your chances of being useful and doing less damage much better.

Remember, we're talking about emergencies. Being in control of yourself helps a lot. What works to save yourself and others is better than being polite. And be aware that you have to be able to help yourself first in order to help others. You can apologize when you get out, which is far better than not getting out at all.


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## carnal (May 30, 2005)

*Re: Flashaholics possibly in more danger during em*

[ QUOTE ]
*enLIGHTenment said:*
A cheap and disposable light would be a handy decoy in questionable situations. Turn on an XNova cheepie, if the situation turns bad, throw the light away from your intended escape route. With luck, the people who in a state of panic will go for the light and clear from your escape route. 

[/ QUOTE ]

Guess its time to start carrying infa-red led flashlights with an IR scope handy in our pockets.


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## greenLED (May 30, 2005)

*Re: Flashaholics possibly in more danger during em*

I usually make a mental note of where the emergency exits are and decide on what I would do to get my family out, but I have never had to execute the plan (fortunately, knock on wood). Part of my plan usually involves using my light; I thought it was the obvious thing to do. But the obvious may not be the best course of action... Lightraven, excellent points.

These changes of behavior remind me of the one time I went white-water rafting, we flipped over, and as I was floating down river trying to get to shore this panicked lady tried to climb onto me to get out of the water /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/jpshakehead.gif Had to "give her a nudge" /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif to get free of her hold (and resurface). Not too proud of my reaction, but she was drowning me to save her own life. Imagine what a couple of hundred people in panick might do... there's no way you're going to fight them all..


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## scuba (May 30, 2005)

*Re: Flashaholics possibly in more danger during em*

In a panic situation one just doesn't think. There are examples of scubadivers riping the regulator out of their loved one's (wife, husband) mouth when out of air and in a advanced state of panic. They then just drown. It is also not possible to know how we would react until such a situation happens. I hope it never does.


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## Sub_Umbra (May 31, 2005)

*Re: Flashaholics possibly in more danger during em*

Great thread! Nice links! Certainly some things I've never thought about before. Food for thought.

In reading Lightraven's well thought out post I kept thinking about how important a roll _situational awareness_ would play in trying to put any of his strategies to work. Obviously any prior knowledge of the layout of your location would make things much easier, but I keep coming back to the individual's mindset and how the way you took in and catagorized information while the lights were on may have a very great impact on what you would be able to accomplish when the lights went out, even if you'd never been there before.

Everyone has seen people who just shuffle through buildings and events without ever appearing to register any info along the way about exits, stairways, etc. Some of those people would seem hard pressed to accomplish much of anything in an emergency -- even with a light.

With your light (should you opt to use it) good situational awareness would be a like a force-multiplier of sorts. Like those who routinely count the rows of airplane seats between themselves and the nearest exit so they may find it in the smoke, a person who was trying to absorb details that may be vital to his future survival as he moves through a lighted building will do better in the dark. With a light to use at his discretion any details gleaned beforehand may not only be helpful in getting from point A to point B, but would seem to also be very valuable in role-playing scenarios like Lightraven's.


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## shifty646 (May 31, 2005)

*Re: Flashaholics possibly in more danger during em*

[ QUOTE ]
*KevinL said:*
... The lesson? Sometimes it may actually be better NOT to pull it out. 

[/ QUOTE ]

Not to digress or anything, but am I the only one that found that funny?? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif


On a serious note, this is a very good topic. Something that has not been covered in any crowd management courses. We had something similar about drawing weapons in crowds in our training.


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## chmsam (May 31, 2005)

*Re: Flashaholics possibly in more danger during em*

All rules are usually gone in a full blown panic, so do not depend upon seeing any resembling civilized behavior. The best thing to remember is that in a panic push really does come to shove. That is why it is illegal to shout "fire" in a crowded place.

What can you do? Think about things before the poop hits the fan. Mentally practice what you would do in a situation like that. Be aware of your surroundings and the people around you. The basics of threat assessment should include all of this, so use these to get a better concept of what you would need to do in any given situation. Practiced or habitual behavior is more likely to be retained under extreme stress, even if that behavior is only making it a habit of walking into a room and noticing where all exits are.

So, the next time you walk into any public place, make it a game to see if you can recall where at least two exits are located. Where are the fire extinguishers? Where are the phones?

Used to be that emergency personnel were taught RACES -- 1) Rescue if needed, 2) Alert the authorities, 3) Contain the fire/emergency, 4) Evacuate everyone, and 5) Secure the site so no one goes back in. For civilians, number two is the first step to take. Never, ever violate number 5, since that usually just adds to the body count.

Basically, keep a lower profile and worry about saving your own behind. As has been said before, if you cannot help yourself, you cannot help others.


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## zespectre (May 31, 2005)

*Re: Flashaholics possibly in more danger during em*

I've often thought that during an emergency, like an extended blackout or such, it would be prudent to remain as stealthy as possible about your supplies/resources. I came to this conclusion after watching the post-hurricane Andrew behavior in Florida where a house, well lit by lanterns, with a generator running in the garage was hit hard and repeatedly by looters and vandals until the owner and some friends sat armed guard.

This thinking was re-enforced even further during a power outage this winter. The lights hadn't been out for more than an hour and we had a couple of neighbors (who know my wife and I camp/backpack) were knocking on our door asking to borrow lights, our cookstove, etc. 

Had it been an extended emergency it could have become a pretty ugly situation in a hurry.


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## Brock (May 31, 2005)

*Re: Flashaholics possibly in more danger during em*

I have a funny story along those lines. We were doing a "load out" of a Miss Saigon I believe, when all of a sudden all the lights went out. Since most of whets happening is on stage and backstage the only light was the dim emergency lighting from the house or the audience portion of the theatre. I happened to be up in a catwalk over the house at the time. Within about 30 seconds all I could see what dozens of small lights switch on and continue to do the work they had to do.

Theatre technicians are used to being in the dark and working in the dark and 2/3 of them carry a light of one type or another. It was funny that all the people with Scorpions were out of light in about 30 min and most didn't have spare 123's. I scattered a bunch of my lights around the hallways so people could see as they moved equipment. I kept my Arc and at the time my Surefire D2 on me, but used the Arc mostly because it was dark and I isn’t need the light of the D2.

Of course in this situation since this group of people was used to working and being in the dark there were no issues. I also SCUBA dive and it is all about being calm and in control, I have been in bad situations and remaining calm helps other people around you as well. Our dive master was busy with first aid so I gave the other people on boat jobs to do to help out as we all got on board and left for port. A diver who joined our trip late went down and had a free flowing regulator so at 110 feet he ran out of air so dropped his weight belt, not a good thing…

It has always amazed me how people want the brightest light, (I admit I am one of them), but when it comes right down to it, a single 5mm Nichia goes a LONG way in pitch dark.


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## VidPro (May 31, 2005)

*Re: Flashaholics possibly in more danger during em*

walk sofly and carry a really bright stick.
If you have some real lumens, they dont have to fight you for your light, just hit the ceiling with it, and they can all get what they want


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## zespectre (May 31, 2005)

*Re: Flashaholics possibly in more danger during em*

[ QUOTE ]
*VidPro said:*
walk sofly and carry a really bright stick.
If you have some real lumens, they dont have to fight you for your light, just hit the ceiling with it, and they can all get what they want 

[/ QUOTE ]

Sounds reasonable... but that's just not how it works in a panic situation sadly enough.


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## VidPro (May 31, 2005)

*Re: Flashaholics possibly in more danger during em*

ya i wouldnt know about panic, the biggest pannic around here, is when the cable TV goes dead. 
everyone rushes out of thier houses, to see what life was /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

I was in the CowPalace (arena) once when a earth quake hit, that caused people to get all excited, and run "OUT" but i was not about to run "out" to get out , ment to go under the concrete seats, i was much safer with the metal rafters in my opionion.

i had my camera trained across the arena, and there is this BIG guy sitting with 2 babes. when the quake hit, he walked atop of the 2 women to run out, by himself.
aparenally we dont need another Hero /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif


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## PhotonWrangler (May 31, 2005)

*Re: Flashaholics possibly in more danger during em*

I'm beginning to wonder if it makes sense to carry a few $1 keychain lights to toss across the room as a diversion! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ooo.gif


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## brightnorm (May 31, 2005)

*Re: Flashaholics possibly in more danger during em*

Better make sure they have a lockable switch

BN


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## PhotonWrangler (May 31, 2005)

*Re: Flashaholics possibly in more danger during em*

Yep, I'm thinking of the keychain lights with the slide switch from CountyComm. That way you can turn it on and then toss it!


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## Zackerty (May 31, 2005)

*Re: Flashaholics possibly in more danger during em*

When you switch your light on, tell 'em all in a loud and assertive voice, " This is a Lightsaber, and it is only set on stun...."


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## VidPro (Jun 1, 2005)

*Re: Flashaholics possibly in more danger during em*

hey carry a gun, if they try and take your light, shoot or stab sombody, that will surely IMPROVE the situation, and stop everyone from panicking or being in a stupor /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

lets see, life or light, which one would i rather take, or have taken.

if your beating people, swinging things at them, or refuse to hand over a light to somone who is in an extreeme panic, _your the problem_ , certannly not the solution.

panic only last so long, if your the one NOT in the pannic, then stop causing the rest of the people to go back into one.
start a ruckus over a stupid 200$ light, they will head out the door so fast, they will be piled up blocking your exit, like them idiots at that concert fire.

use the light responcibly, and you might gain enough control of your own self, to get people to control themselves, which might allow everybody to get everything they want.

geesh, whatever happend to people getting together and helping eachother in an emergency, or even in those few minutes of pannic? its when the Ants think that its every man for themselves that will insure that pannic continues.

when people are all alone and scared, there is your pannic, and when its every man for himself your leaving your adversaries alone scared and in a pannic, i doubt that will do you a bit of good. especially when then YOU will be alone scared, and in a pannic, and YOU might just need something next.

like life in general, help a few of the others out, so people realize that compassion and responcibility are the means to the proper ending, instead of everyman for his sorry self. 

seems to me its the greed, and oblivious nature of the human that will achieve the negative results, the relization that you are all in the same boat, and can drown together or work together, would get any thinking person to try and achieve the latter. 

throwing lights to them so they pile up killing eachother, so you can get out, why shame on you all /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
if you have the forsight to be devising devious schemes to save your self, mabey that same forsight could be applied to save everyone, and ESPECIALLY yourself.
instead, your talking about it here, and your still IN a pannic. keep the heart racing, the muscles twitching, the adrenelin flowing, and add the brain working, and your all set.

note: this only applies to emergencies, and does not advocate, being a bleeding heart liberal, or giving money to drunks that ask for change.
being prepared for an emergency, would to also be prepared for what will actually occur in an emergency, not how i can increase the emergency for everyone else. and insure that i am the only person left on the planet, so i only can survive.
stuff like that often backfires on the one person your trying to save, YOURSELF! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
and eventually an emergency is over, live or dead, you will still have at least one person to explain your actions to, yup,,, yourself.


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## Lux Luthor (Jun 1, 2005)

*Re: Flashaholics possibly in more danger during em*

[ QUOTE ]
*zespectre said:*
I've often thought that during an emergency, like an extended blackout or such, it would be prudent to remain as stealthy as possible about your supplies/resources. I came to this conclusion after watching the post-hurricane Andrew behavior in Florida where a house, well lit by lanterns, with a generator running in the garage was hit hard and repeatedly by looters and vandals until the owner and some friends sat armed guard...

[/ QUOTE ]

Yup.

I thought a lot about this before Y2K, when I lived in an area not far from slums. Often these people were kind enough to wander through my neighborhood and do such things as throw rocks through windshields, throw snowballs with gravel inside at my living room window, and I'm still missing my passenger side mirror after one of them thought it would fun to tear it off my car while I was asleep.

If I'm going to be prepared for an emergency/survival situation (and I usually am), then it's going to be me and no one else that decides what equipment/supplies I will share and when. So the stealth approach is certainly the way I approach it.

The other thing I emphasize is _mobility_. In my opinion, most emergency/survival situations involve getting out of the area as fast as possible, along with some basic tools. Relatively few scenarios require large stockpiles of equipment and/or supplies.


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## lymph (Jun 2, 2005)

*Re: Flashaholics possibly in more danger during em*

I've mentioned this before, here, in one of the threads where we fantasize about how we'll be heroes in an emergency/blackout situation. I think this article proves that it is as least as likely that we'll end up with our butts kicked. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif It's too bad, but that's mob mentality mixed with emergency survival instinct.

I carry two lights and sometimes a pistol. I'd let a light go way before I'd shoot, that's for sure.


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## The-David (Jun 10, 2005)

*Re: Flashaholics possibly in more danger during em*

[ QUOTE ]
*Lux Luthor said:*
[ QUOTE ]
*zespectre said:*

If I'm going to be prepared for an emergency/survival situation (and I usually am), then it's going to be me and no one else that decides what equipment/supplies I will share and when. So the stealth approach is certainly the way I approach it.

The other thing I emphasize is _mobility_. In my opinion, most emergency/survival situations involve getting out of the area as fast as possible, along with some basic tools. Relatively few scenarios require large stockpiles of equipment and/or supplies. 

[/ QUOTE ]

I entierley agree, I am aways set as best that I can be I keep 1 case of mres and my camping gear and enouf watter to live wity my famley for about 2 weeks, its all stored in two large totes as to be loaded easley. If soumthing realey bad hapes IE larg black out, quake, fire EXTRA... just a good excuse for a famley camping trip. I alos dont tell my nabors much about me to avoid that problme (though they do see me leave for duty every night as a armed security officer). 

As for the persnonl surval, that depends on the area and acctivety that Ile be doing. I geocache and end up in soum prity remote areas so I keep water and food in my back (2 days worth) just incase. As far as being traped with a croud. I try to avoide lage groups of peopl to start with, dont do public tranport in my area. 

On a simler note I would do every thin I could to help as meney people as posable with out endanger my self.


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## carrot (Feb 19, 2006)

Browsing through the archives of CPF, I found this thread (edit - comparable threads merged - Kestrel) , upon which this one is based. I thought it was a pretty important article that should be resurrected, because in the few months I've been here I keep hearing about flashlight use in an emergency... thought maybe bringing it back would help us remember that a mob is never rational.

To summarize it so people don't have to go back to the original thread, the original post linked to an article in TIME magazine (that you now have to pay for), where a man with a flashlight during 9/11 has an entire crowd fighting for his light, ripping his shirt and crushing him in the panic and rush to get it.

A few, like Size15's recalled a few times when using a flashlight would have been a bad, maybe even a dangerous idea. I know for myself, before having read this thread in an emergency without light I wouldn't have thought twice before 'whipping it out,' possibly causing chaos and a rush to grab the light source that could be fatal.

I think, being flashaholics, we are more susceptible to using a light (than a non-flashaholic with a light) in an emergency, given our eagerness to prove to non-flashaholics our usefulness, regardless of whether or not using one could cause panic.

Now, at least, the next time I draw my light in an emergency with a large crowd, it'll be a cheap one, if at all.

I'd like to open this thread up to discussion, and would like to remind all those considering responding to follow the CPF rules regarding illegal actions, as getting this thread closed prematurely will make it harder for users to find the thread later.


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## powernoodle (Feb 19, 2006)

I used to carry a potato in my pocket. One time, several years ago, a crowd of hungry Irishmen rushed me and tried to emancipate my tuber from me. That was the last time I carried a potato. Trust me, its not worth it.

best regards


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## BatteryCharger (Feb 19, 2006)

That's why I like a big heavy Mag. Come on...try to take it from me. I dare you.


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## beezaur (Feb 19, 2006)

It is like trying to help someone who is drowning. If you can't do it safely, don't. The first thing you need to think of when trying to help others is not becomming a casualty yourself.

Scott


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## drizzle (Feb 19, 2006)

I don't think carrying a cheap light is really any better. If you're in an emergency and you need a light it doesn't matter if they took your good light or your cheap light; you are still without a light.

My own thoughts are that it's most important to try to keep your head in an emergency. That would mean gauging the crowd around you before pulling out that flashlight. Of course I've never been in that situation and I hope I never am.


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## carrot (Feb 19, 2006)

drizzle said:


> I don't think carrying a cheap light is really any better. If you're in an emergency and you need a light it doesn't matter if they took your good light or your cheap light; you are still without a light.


My thought is, I could use a Photon clone or an Xnova if I *really* do need a light in an emergency when I'm in a big crowd, and if it causes a ruckus, flinging it across the room won't bother me, and I can always pull out a good light if I *really* needed it when I'm away from danger.


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## carbine15 (Feb 19, 2006)

carry a bag of clones and pass them out to your fellow man. or better yet, get out the torches (the fire-based ones) and light them up. What good it a mob without fire nudity and a sacrifice?


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## NeonLights (Feb 19, 2006)

The likelyhood of being mauled by a mob for a flashlight in an emergency situation is so unlikely as to be almost ludicrous. Sure it has probably happened once or twice in the history of the world, but how many more times has it helped? As with anything, good judgement should be used, but to caution against using a flashlight because of fear of the mob mentality is rather silly. As with any weapon or tool, it is always best to exercise discretion and good judgement before just whipping it out, something many flashaholics are often wont to do. Besides, most of us carry more than one light. If a mob should attack you for a light, toss them one and walk away.

-Keith


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## Babo (Feb 19, 2006)

Think for a moment, about your premise.
Now play it out to its absurd conclusion.

Using your concern about standing out in a crowd,
plug in any item which might be of use or interest to someone else.
A bottler of water on a hot day, your wallet, cell phone; the
list is endless. 

If you choose to play the "what if" game based upon odd-(and rare)
circumstances, you'll paralyze yourself with paranoia. Not a good way to
live. 
I'd be willing to wager that you'll live your life without ever being mugged
by a mob for your flashlight.

Now, go do your homework. Tomorrow's a school day.


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## Blindspot (Feb 19, 2006)

carrot said:


> Browsing through the archives of CPF, I found this thread, upon which this one is based. I thought it was a pretty important article that should be resurrected, because in the few months I've been here I keep hearing about flashlight use in an emergency... thought maybe bringing it back would help us remember that a mob is never rational.
> 
> To summarize it so people don't have to go back to the original thread, the original post linked to an article in TIME magazine (that you now have to pay for), where a man with a flashlight during 9/11 has an entire crowd fighting for his light, ripping his shirt and crushing him in the panic and rush to get it.
> 
> ...



This reminds me of those who read about an injury or death of someone who was alleged to be trapped by their seat-belt in an auto accident, and therefore refuse to wear a seat-belt. Somehow, they manage to overlook the statistical likelihood of being _saved_ from injury or death by a seat-belt, and focus on the publicized anomaly of the infrequent victim of a seat-belt.


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## CLHC (Feb 19, 2006)

Babo said:


> If you choose to play the "what if" game based upon odd-(and rare) circumstances, you'll paralyze yourself with paranoia. Not a good way to
> live.


One would have to assess the situation very carefully before proceeding. . .Case by case scenario. Good to be prepared, but like what Babo said regarding the too many "what ifs" can surely make one "faint out of fear."


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## LEDcandle (Feb 19, 2006)

Dang, I would think people would appreciate a person who whipped out a flashlight during an emergency/blackout and follow his lead to find their way out.

I didn't know the call for self-preservation was so innate in humans that their first reaction was to actually snatch the flashlight away. After someone manages to snatch it, he's gonna get it snatched by someone else anyway. 

People gotta learn to co-operate even in a panicky situation instead of trying to kill one another. Harder said than done, but more chance everyone will survive.


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## GadgetTravel (Feb 19, 2006)

First of all, that article from Time is almost certainly talking about the earlier episode of the bombing of the towers' parking structure in the early 1990s. The garages wouldnt have been effected from what I know of September 11 until the buildings collapsed, and at that point the garages were more or less wiped out from what I can tell. The whole thing sounds questionable to me. 

In any case I carry a light, and Im not particularly worried about it. I am worried about getting run over by taxis and a few other things. But mob action about lights, nope. In all of the calamities I know about around here in recent years, people have behaved on average very well and very cooperatively.

Just wanted to add that if I ever am in a situation like that, the absolutely positively last thing on my mind is the possibility that if I lost a light it would be an expensive one. My first concern is that it work. Thats why I always have an HDS or A2 or both in my pocket.


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## Lunal_Tic (Feb 19, 2006)

Just wondering if anyone here has been in a crowd situation where even your movements are not your choice? It is a very scary situation. 

The crush of people and panic can cause reactions that appear to be ludicrous/absurd by "normal" standards. If you have never been there, observations about the reactions hold a bit less water IMO. 

There is no logic, no rules, no thought, only reaction and very little "humanity". The mass is reduced to its lowest common denominator and that is either fight or flight. If you happen to be in the way or have something wanted . . .

-LT

p.s. Good post Carrot.


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## PhotonWrangler (Feb 19, 2006)

powernoodle said:


> I used to carry a potato in my pocket. One time, several years ago, a crowd of hungry Irishmen rushed me and tried to emancipate my tuber from me. That was the last time I carried a potato. Trust me, its not worth it.



:laughing: :laughing:


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## NeonLights (Feb 19, 2006)

Lunal_Tic said:


> Just wondering if anyone here has been in a crowd situation where even your movements are not your choice? It is a very scary situation.
> 
> The crush of people and panic can cause reactions that appear to be ludicrous/absurd by "normal" standards. If you have never been there, observations about the reactions hold a bit less water IMO.



I've been down in front for music festivals where by the end of the night there were 90-100,000 people in attendance, and as time went on, the crowd in front got tighter and tighter. The mass exodus after the last concert was bordering on a "mob" situation too (well after dark, out in the countryside with little lighting). It isn't a fun situation, but I didn't hesitate to use my flashlight for brief moments when needed. What really got to me was the teenagers who were carrying bigger flashlights around and instead of shining on the ground to see, they were shining them in people's faces (including mine). There were a few people carrying flashlights that did almost get assaulted (by me), but it was because they lacked good judgement on when and how to use them.

-Keith


----------



## GadgetTravel (Feb 19, 2006)

Lunal_Tic said:


> Just wondering if anyone here has been in a crowd situation where even your movements are not your choice? It is a very scary situation.
> 
> The crush of people and panic can cause reactions that appear to be ludicrous/absurd by "normal" standards. If you have never been there, observations about the reactions hold a bit less water IMO.
> 
> ...



Yea, I have although not in really bad ones I suppose. But whether I had a light or not wouldnt have mattered. I know a number of people who worked in the World Trade Centers, including my wife who happened not to be at work on the 11th. In talking with those that were there on that day I didnt hear of any instance of panic or for that matter of lights failing although given the 20,000 or so people in the buildings at the time of impact I obviously cant say it didnt happen. Likewise, with the recent bombings of the tube in London, people were not from what I have read fighting over lights but rather sharing them. 

While if in that situation I would obviously assess the exact situation as best I could, my likely reaction would be that of most other people, to use what I could, in this case a light, to help myself and others as best I could.


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## PhotonWrangler (Feb 19, 2006)

Lunal_Tic said:


> There is no logic, no rules, no thought, only reaction and very little "humanity". The mass is reduced to its lowest common denominator and that is either fight or flight. If you happen to be in the way or have something wanted . . .



I gather that you've experienced such ugliness in person. I have been in some situations that have come close to that but thankfully not as severe.

It makes me wonder how I would react in a panic situation that included sudden darkness. I don't have any really expensive lights, and I would feel the urge to help out if I could, although I'd have to make a quick judgement call as to whether my revealing a light source would put myself and/or the individuals around me in any sort of danger from a stampede.

I think the more that we preach the gospel of EDC, the less likely this will happen, but it'll be a long time before enough individuals recognize the need to carry such a basic survival tool with them always.

The subway incident in London last year was a good example of the need to EDC a light. Sadly too many people miss this lesson until it's too late.


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## fieldops (Feb 19, 2006)

I guess you really have to just judge the situation and the crowd type. In most situations, it probably will not be an issue. If you are in a city blackout and/or a violent rioting crowd, then you may need an extra M4. One a Surefire, hopefully you won't ever need the other.


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## g36pilot (Feb 19, 2006)

In many situations low profile is often the way to go initially. Don't reveal that your equipped to survive better than others unless absolutely necessary. Others will immediately flock to you and expect you to protect/assist. Are you equipped to do so for a panicked, potentially dangerous crowd? If you become disabled, you can help no one.

In a long term or large scale emergency, you'll want to stay low profile the entire time.

Disasters bring out the best and worst of human nature. Be prepared for both.


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## ABTOMAT (Feb 19, 2006)

fieldops said:


> I guess you really have to just judge the situation and the crowd type. In most situations, it probably will not be an issue. If you are in a city blackout and/or a violent rioting crowd, then you may need an extra M4. One a Surefire, hopefully you won't ever need the other.




I'd rather have two M2s.


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## Double_A (Feb 20, 2006)

powernoodle said:


> I used to carry a potato in my pocket. One time, several years ago, a crowd of hungry Irishmen rushed me and tried to emancipate my tuber from me. That was the last time I carried a potato. Trust me, its not worth it.
> 
> best regards




So, did your popularity with the ladies change when you stopped carrying that potato in your pocket? 

I keep a $20 bag of county comm LED keychain lights in my desk drawer. Power goes out, they get distributed to staff.


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## BentHeadTX (Feb 20, 2006)

g36pilot said:


> In many situations low profile is often the way to go initially. Don't reveal that your equipped to survive better than others unless absolutely necessary. Others will immediately flock to you and expect you to protect/assist. Are you equipped to do so for a panicked, potentially dangerous crowd? If you become disabled, you can help no one.
> 
> In a long term or large scale emergency, you'll want to stay low profile the entire time.
> 
> Disasters bring out the best and worst of human nature. Be prepared for both.



I have found during sudden power outages that the person with the flashlight becomes the "leader". Since most people that carry flashlights around with them are cops, military, medical and emergency personnel--they naturally follow you since you seem to be prepared. They also tend to wonder what else you are hauling around with you (knives, firearms etc) so they tend to be rather docile. 

As always, don't whip out your photon thrower if you are in the midst of a riot--access the situation and use as prudent. If the crowd gets crazy, throw the keychain light the other way and pull out the other one you carry. When dealing with work or large crowds of people, I carry either an L1P or Mediterranean 2AA on my belt for extra brightness.


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## tron3 (Feb 20, 2006)

powernoodle said:


> I used to carry a potato in my pocket. One time, several years ago, a crowd of hungry Irishmen rushed me and tried to emancipate my tuber from me. That was the last time I carried a potato. Trust me, its not worth it.
> 
> best regards


 
Hmm, all you needed was some zinc, tin, wire and LED bulb. You could have made a potato light. It could run for weeks. :naughty: 

I completely do NOT mind if some does this. Should prove very interesting and funny.


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## BentHeadTX (Feb 20, 2006)

tron3 said:


> Hmm, all you needed was some zinc, tin, wire and LED bulb. You could have made a potato light. It could run for weeks. :naughty:
> 
> I completely do NOT mind if some does this. Should prove very interesting and funny.



Hmmmmm,
Rechargable potatos? A 6 potato Mag? How about a keychain version--call it the "french fry light"? 
I need some sleep...


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## GadgetTravel (Feb 20, 2006)

BentHeadTX said:


> Hmmmmm,
> Rechargable potatos? A 6 potato Mag? How about a keychain version--call it the "french fry light"?
> I need some sleep...



Would a yam light be brighter?


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## leukos (Feb 20, 2006)

NeonLights said:


> The likelyhood of being mauled by a mob for a flashlight...is so unlikely as to be almost ludicrous.
> 
> -Keith


 
It could happen at SHOT! :laughing:


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## ScottyJ (Feb 20, 2006)

This scenario is exactly why I never leave home without some decent gen III night vision and an IR light, that way sheeple will never know.


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## DaveT (Feb 20, 2006)

I remember when that thread first came out. I have to say that while it for the most part seems unlikely, I can see times and places where that could be the outcome. The thing I think of is episodes like the blackout of '03, or something similar to the London Underground attack on the NYC subway. When I was riding the subway daily, I used to carry a stash of those $1 keychain lights in my bag for this exact scenario. 
I was in a subway car during the blackout (aboveground, luckily), and even though we were sitting in the sunshine, able to look around outside, we spent more than 45 minutes in the car waiting for updates from the conductor and for them to decide that we needed to get out of the car. If that had been underground, in the dark, without the ability the call out or listen to news on the radio, 45 minutes would have seemed like a LONG time. Add to that not knowing what's going on, a full-fledged rush hour crush of people packed into the cars and the smell of smoke underground, and I can see a civil group of people turning very ugly very quickly.
Anyway, I think it's not the most likely event in case it suddenly turns dark on a crowd, but I can see how it could happen and it's something worth thinking about. 
Dave


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## hquan (Feb 20, 2006)

I remember reading a post on here about a power outage in a subway - and they used their light to shine the way out. The people in the subway were very grateful. I guess that it would depend on how life threatening the situation is. An unexpected subway power outage is one thing, an unexpected subway power outage due to nearby bombs going off and the ceiling collapsing is a completely different situation. On the other hand, if you're in a life threatening situation where light is required - don't you risk killing yourself by NOT using the light?


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## g36pilot (Feb 20, 2006)

BentHeadTX said:


> I have found during sudden power outages that the person with the flashlight becomes the "leader". Since most people that carry flashlights around with them are cops, military, medical and emergency personnel--they naturally follow you since you seem to be prepared. They also tend to wonder what else you are hauling around with you (knives, firearms etc) so they tend to be rather docile.......


 
I should have mentioned my civilian experiences were more on human nature's dark side, small and regional sized riots were mob mentality sets in among the unprincipled/lightly moraled and the good guys panic. Non-uniformed good guys are quickly outnumbered and become potential targets as most descent folk rightly flee when violence erupts. All that remain are those too slow or impeded from evading and a growing semi organized group of ill intent. 

Bad guys could care less what your carrying if you are are perceived as alone without backup and have something they want badly enough. You are outnumbered and they can get too close before they demonstrate behavior justifying a higher level of response on your part. 

Alas, survival skills and mob mentality are subjects too vast to fully explain in a thread. Just be careful and use common sense.

*edited for spelling and one sentence change.


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## TonkinWarrior (Feb 21, 2006)

In danger from others... simply because you deployed a flashlight?

I thought that's what guns were for.

----------------------------------

"Fear no man, regardless of size.
Just call on me -- I'll equalize."
--Sam Colt


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## tron3 (Feb 21, 2006)

BentHeadTX said:


> Hmmmmm,
> Rechargable potatos? A 6 potato Mag? How about a keychain version--call it the "french fry light"?
> I need some sleep...


 
:lolsign: Got a good chuckle from that. The "Fenix Fry light", hmmm.

I doubt a yam would work better.


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## baterija (Mar 20, 2008)

tron3 said:


> :lolsign: Got a good chuckle from that. The "Fenix Fry light", hmmm.



What kind of switch does the FF (Fenix fry) have? Clicky? Is it regulated? Is the LED potted with ketchup or easily modded? Curly or straight?

Of course a FF would make me even more likely to die if trapped in the dark with a hungry mob. If they come out with one sporting an R2 LED I am buying it though.:twothumbs


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## Tubor (Mar 20, 2008)

That's why I carry several


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## craig333 (Mar 20, 2008)

BentHeadTX said:


> I have found during sudden power outages that the person with the flashlight becomes the "leader". Since most people that carry flashlights around with them are cops, military, medical and emergency personnel--they naturally follow you since you seem to be prepared. They also tend to wonder what else you are hauling around with you (knives, firearms etc) so they tend to be rather docile.
> 
> Exactly. Its the perfect opportunity to actually take charge. People want someone to lead them. Turn your light on, use your "I'm in charge voice" and lead on.


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## kaichu dento (Apr 5, 2008)

The possibility of failure is not a good reason to not try, but it is a good thing to keep in mind that people will want what you have in times of crisis.

Lost a Petzl Tikka headlamp a couple years ago when a lady fell down some stairs and knocked herself out. We were in the ice museum and with not much light I offered my headlamp, then went back to work after receiving the promise that they'd leave it at the front desk.

Don't miss it, especially since I'm now planning on an H50 or H30, but it's a bummer when other people decide they need your stuff more than you do.


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## BentHeadTX (Apr 6, 2008)

craig333 said:


> BentHeadTX said:
> 
> 
> > Exactly. Its the perfect opportunity to actually take charge. People want someone to lead them. Turn your light on, use your "I'm in charge voice" and lead on.
> ...


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## Illum (May 6, 2008)

so what do you suggest we do carrot? save our Surefires for less crowded situations, put on a pair of sunglasses and strike up phosphor flares for illumination?

can't catch me if you can't see me muhwhahahaha


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## jzmtl (May 9, 2008)

That's an interesting article, good thing it's bumped.

My personal rule is keep low profile, never be the first nor last. Don't know how it'll work with my EDC stuff, but it kept me out of getting any speeding ticket *knock on wood*, even thou when situation permits I have no problem going to or over 160% of the speed limit.


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## defloyd77 (Jul 16, 2008)

If I were in the situation where I was getting mobbed for my light, I'd just go 'click'. Good luck finding the man with the light and the way out amongst all of these people in the dark.


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## Illum (Jul 16, 2008)

jzmtl said:


> My personal rule is keep low profile, never be the _*first*_ nor *last*.


 
referring to my book on Murphy's Laws for flashlights
unfortunately in most scenarios you will inadvertently find that you are other one only with a flashlight and had you used it you'd be the *first* and *last*, should someone else have a flashlight yours will be brighter, making you the *first* target by the crowd and the *last* to be able to leave until the lights come back on.

In crowded situations I turn from shephard to sheep, my lights in my pocket, place hands over the pocket, and move with the rest of the sheep in a confused (sometimes sort of humorous) panicky manner:laughing:


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## Monocrom (Jul 16, 2008)

carrot said:


> To summarize it so people don't have to go back to the original thread, the original post linked to an article in TIME magazine (that you now have to pay for), where a man with a flashlight during 9/11 has an entire crowd fighting for his light, ripping his shirt and crushing him in the panic and rush to get it.


 
That's what happens in a survival situation such as that. People revert back to what they basically are.... animals with opposing thumbs. 

I like the idea suggested earlier in this thread.... Keeping a .99 cent coin-cell light on a quick-detach key chain, and tossing it into the crowd. If you can turn on the coin-cell light while turning off your own torch, you might trick the crowd into thinking you just tossed your main torch out to them. Let them fight like rats over your fauxton. Try to slip away as they do.


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## Tatexi (Aug 4, 2008)

The articles referred by the OP seem to be available for (free) reading now:

How to Get Out Alive
Special Report: The Day of the Attack

Especially the first article was rather interesting describing how various types of people act under extreme circumstances. The fight over flashlight was in the second article, page 2 (not much more info than on the part already quoted here on CPF).


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## Kestrel (May 6, 2010)

*Re: Flashaholics possibly in more danger during emergency*

4-year old necro bump.

A slow afternoon on CPF. Just came across this very interesting (& good) thread - viewpoints on how best to handle unexpected emergency situations. Quality posts, well-thought out - this is vintage CPF, it seems to me.

However, many current CPFers probably won't even come across this thread, this subforum is a pretty obscure location?

Enjoy,
K


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## ninemm (May 6, 2010)

*Re: Flashaholics possibly in more danger during emergency*

Hey Kestrel. Thanks for bumping this thread! Definitely an interesting and informative read. :thumbsup:


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## scout24 (May 6, 2010)

*Re: Flashaholics possibly in more danger during emergency*

Good bump, Kestrel. Thanks, it was some good reading!


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## Max_Power (May 6, 2010)

*Re: Flashaholics possibly in more danger during emergency*

I had a taste of this "crowd" mentality when I had a very large gunsafe delivered to my home. Coincidentally, a street person had been murdered nearby a few weeks earlier. The memory of the LA riots was still fresh in everyone's minds as well. One of the neighbors said "I guess I know which house to go to if that happens here." 

I said "Uh, right."
My silent answer was "Yeah, Riiiiight." 

If you want to be protected from bad guys, don't expect someone else to do it for you. 

In a town of 100,000 people, there might be a grand total of a few hundred police, split across 3 work shifts. That's why there's never a cop around when you need one. If there were enough police for me to have a 24 hour personal bodyguard, I'd move out of the country, that's a police state.

It gets even worse. According to the US Supreme Court, the law does not require police to protect any person, even if police are standing right next to you at the time the crime is being committed against you. If you call 911 they are not required to show up. Their job is to enforce the law after the crime has been committed. Eventually. If they won't get injured. It's crazy to expect someone else to risk their life for your benefit alone.

Which brings me to the inevitable conclusion - there are a whole lot of crazy people around here.


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## Burgess (May 6, 2010)

*Re: Flashaholics possibly in more danger during emergency*

Great Thread ! ! !


Glad it was Bumped, for a Re-View of this info.


:twothumbs
_


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## Dances with Flashlight (May 7, 2010)

*Re: Flashaholics possibly in more danger during emergency*

Thank you Kestrel!


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## Wok (May 7, 2010)

*Re: Flashaholics possibly in more danger during emergency*

This implies that the US Police are Reactive through legislation?

eng hoe



Max_Power said:


> ........ According to the US Supreme Court, the law does not require police to protect any person, even if police are standing right next to you at the time the crime is being committed against you. If you call 911 they are not required to show up. *Their job is to enforce the law after the crime has been committed.* Eventually. If they won't get injured. It's crazy to expect someone else to risk their life for your benefit alone........


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## fisk-king (May 14, 2010)

*Re: Flashaholics possibly in more danger during em*



Size15's said:


> ....
> 
> Just because you have a flashlight doesn't mean it is always appropriate (or even safe) to use it.
> 
> ...




+10^1000


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## TRITON (May 16, 2010)

*Re: Flashaholics possibly in more danger during emergency*

I think this is one of the best subjects I;ve ever seen on CPF.:sigh: Its a shame people behave the way they do in a s.h.t.f. senario, but THEY DO and the more people that are aware of this the better. I think humans are the most dangerous animals on the planet. even sometimes when not in an emergency. We people who carry a few or more items with us on a daily basis for whatever reason could,probably would become a target of people who are desperate. When its really bad I have no dout that the desperate will kill to get what they want,just look at human history,and the drowning person will try to climb up on top of you in a panic. It never ceases to amaze me how many people dont carry anything and think you are strange for being prepared but are the first ****heads to want to borrow something of yours to solve a problem. There is so much info on the web and other media [not commersial t.v. disinfo] about volcanos,earthquakes,natural disasters etc that we should all wake up and be prepared for any posibility. Check out projectcamelotportal.org just for a look you might find it interesting.And I agree being wise and stealthy with your equipment when surounded by sheeple who dont know sh#t about common sence and are in panic mode might be the best option at that time. SAD BUT ITS TRUE.


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## ElectronGuru (May 16, 2010)

*Re: Flashaholics possibly in more danger during emergency*



TRITON said:


> humans are the most dangerous animals on the planet.



Most thought is very time consuming, so most behavior is (in whole or in part) based on emotions. 
Usually this is beneficial (much faster), but when emotions are intense, so are behaviors.

Humans in groups are often accused of having a heard mentality. Guess this would be the stampede version of that.


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## TorchBoy (May 16, 2010)

*Re: Flashaholics possibly in more danger during emergency*

Thanks K - best necro bump I've seen all day. The sudden-darkness situations I've been in when I've been hesitant to use a torch I thought I was just being selfish. But so many people have cellphones these days that we wouldn't be in total darkness.


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## Ny0ng1 (May 16, 2010)

*Re: Flashaholics possibly in more danger during emergency*

Great thread!

Reminds me when the lights went out in a supermarket and i flipped out my rexlight to continue shopping in the dark and navigate around the alleys 
It was afternoon so some lights went in through the perimeter windows so its not total darkness but dark enough for people to keep stay still instead of walking around.
i felt a bit 'exposed' as im the only one with light on me other than 1 or 2 flashlights belong to the store assistants turned on 5 minutes after the lights out. Fortunately i was walking in a group of 4 with one of them weight over 100kg


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## bullfrog (May 16, 2010)

*Re: Flashaholics possibly in more danger during emergency*

Excellent thread.

Had a situation similar to Size15's with a broken down subway and was cautious to use the light I had on me. Mob mentality is one of those things that is just downright scary...

Dont forget to bring this point up to your significant others and family who have received an E01 or Photon for their keys - actually just had this talk with my gf and she said she would have never even thought about this realistic potential for danger...


.


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## TwitchALot (May 18, 2010)

*Re: Flashaholics possibly in more danger during emergency*

Great thread. Thanks for the bump!


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## kyamei (May 19, 2010)

*Re: Flashaholics possibly in more danger during emergency*

Never thought about the possibility of being attacked for my light. Next time there's a blackout, I'll be sure to pull the knife before the light.


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## crizyal (May 19, 2010)

*Re: Flashaholics possibly in more danger during emergency*

This is by far one of the most interesting threads I have read here on CPF! This concept of "mob rules" is something I haven't given much thought to. I can remember when I was younger and frequented quite a few larger outdoor rock concerts. There were times when you would be packed in shoulder to shoulder and the crowd would shift fifteen or twenty feet at a time. I had to hop on one foot and try very hard not to get stepped on as this happened. One wrong move and you go down with hundreds of people on top of you. The crowd does NOT stop for you, it cannot stop. I have never been so scared in my life as I have been in these type of large crowds. With a mass of people, your dealing with not only the mental state of the crowd, but the sheer mass of it. I have had to use force (in the way of pushing) to be free of the mass. This was different in the way that most didn't want to be free of it. I have seen people who thought they could handle it get hurt very quickly. I can only imagine how bad this would turn if someone in the crowd pulled out a gun or caused some other type of panic. It makes me shiver. 

Thanks for the resurrection of this thread.


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## Yellowstone (May 24, 2010)

*Re: Flashaholics possibly in more danger during emergency*

Thanks brightnorm for the original post and Kestrel for pointing it out again. I read this thread when it was active back years ago and found it both thought-provoking and saddening at the same time. I've reread it occasionally to remind myself of the lessons, not all of which are intuitive. The advice about low profile is spot on.


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## TRITON (Jun 22, 2010)

*Re: Flashaholics possibly in more danger during emergency*

They [ the info web sites i follow] are saying that up to 4 million people maybe evacuated away from the oil disaster in the gulf region of USA in the very near future. Gases that are comeing out of the well site are highly toxic and radio active particulates with them. To go into FEMA camps. Do you think this is a SHTF situation that it might be NOT a good idea to let anyone know what you are carrying,[ torches,knives,tools guns.] Can you imagine the herd mentallity if that does happen? Not to mention the hurricane season and storms, Even rain is a problem because it is somewhat if not entirely formed from evaporation over the sea. The corexit dispersant they are spreading every where is more toxic than the crude oil. The rain could be acid rain and knock out the crops and a great deal of the food chain with it,not to mention contaminating the water supplys over a vast area. The oil spill is going to spread all through the world currents and effect all of us eventually, they can't stop it, its gone to big and to long to be fixed, with conservative estimate of 100,000 barrels a day adding to the problem. I think we all need to put much thought and planning into all this. AND dont forget to be very careful were you pull out you TORCH, KNIFE, TOOL,or suvival GOODIES in a panic or herd SHTF situation. there is plenty of info sites on the web that are digging up the REAL truth about what is really going on,BP and the government are trying to cover things up. Do a bit of research yourselves and plan to be as safe as you and your family can be. Dont beleive the bullsh#t they tell you, LOOK IT UP for your selves. BE PREPARED,AWARE and SAFE.


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## Ray_of_Light (Jun 22, 2010)

*Re: Flashaholics possibly in more danger during emergency*

I have found myself in the total darkness more than once.
Inside a cave, and on the top of a mountain. There is easy, turn your light on, and gain the exit or the return way.
In underground facilities, no, you can do that. It is normal that if you are the only person with a light, somebody will take it off of your hand. 
People are not prepared to deal with the darkness.
I EDC various powerful lights. Last time I found myself in the total darkness, in the city underground facility, the emergency lighting was out. I turned on the Photon, removed from the keyring, and the few persons present there followed me on the stairs to the exit. I was prepared to the fact that someboy may have pulled the Photon off my hands, this is why I removed from the keyring first.
Before this, it was in a train in a three kilometers long underground gallery. Lights went out, total darkness. Turned on my less powerful light, and I saw a person which was coming to get the light. I illuminated the path to the next car, then I turned the light off, and moved in the darkness.
Another time, a big underground ballrooom. It was full of friends, I turned on the light, helped the others to find candles.

In a public crowded place, use the light sparingly and deceivingly to find your way out. Only if you are sure of the social environment, you can share the light with others.

Anthony


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## brightnorm (Aug 14, 2011)

*Re: Flashaholics possibly in more danger during emergency*

I started this thread because the subject was an important one which I had never seen before. It was originally posted in the Cafe, which was much more vital and interesting in the "old days" than it is now. In fact, things got a little TOO interesting, leading to the formation of CPFU, and the transfer of some great Cafe threads to more "obscure" forums.

Brightnorm


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## Bullzeyebill (Aug 15, 2011)

*Re: Flashaholics possibly in more danger during emergency*



brightnorm said:


> I started this thread because the subject was an important one which I had never seen before. It was originally posted in the Cafe, which was much more vital and interesting in the "old days" than it is now. In fact, things got a little TOO interesting, leading to the formation of CPFU, and the transfer of some great Cafe threads to more "obscure" forums.
> 
> Brightnorm



Well, lets move it back to the Cafe.

Bill


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## Richub (Aug 15, 2011)

*Re: Flashaholics possibly in more danger during emergency*

Thanks for the move. 

I never considered this scenario before. I just thought "Whenever I get caught in a dark place, I'll just ceiling bounce my most powerful light and we'll all be able to get out."

This thread got me thinking and reading about this a lot. It's definitively very valuable information.

It even brought an old bumper sticker I once saw in my teens back to mind:

*Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups.*

How true that statement is, actually. Especially looking back at a load of things I witnessed since my teenage years.


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## CheepSteal (Aug 15, 2011)

*Re: Flashaholics possibly in more danger during emergency*

This thread is a great read and eye opener for me. I never use my lights in public unless I absolutely have to because I don't want to draw attention to myself, but now I have another reason. I guess this is where the SF momentary only tailcap would come in handy, flash and move.
I actually had my batteryjunction free keychain light fall off my keys today (since it's attached with a plastic S-biner), I was just about to fix it permanantly onto the keys but now I'm thinking of just letting it be easily detachable for these SHTF situations. 
I'm thinking this is where moonlight mode is going to be REALLY helpful, I think I gotta revise my EDC now...
Edit: I think I will also run the strike bezel on my Z2 from now on..:shakehead


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## TyJo (Aug 16, 2011)

*Re: Flashaholics possibly in more danger during emergency*



bullfrog said:


> Dont forget to bring this point up to your significant others and family who have received an E01 or Photon for their keys - actually just had this talk with my gf and she said she would have never even thought about this realistic potential for danger....


Lots of great posts in this thread, but I think this one should be brought up again. People I care about have a flashlight on them, and the first instinct they might have in a situation like this is to immediately turn their light on and help everyone out...


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## iapyx (Aug 18, 2011)

*Re: Flashaholics possibly in more danger during emergency*

Very interesting thread. One of the better ones. I think a lot of us think about these kind of situations. Emergencies. Being prepared: always bring a flashlight with you. Now I don't tend to like being in crowded places. Been to concerts, been to nightclubs/discos, although it's not really my thing. 

In this thread one could make a comparison with night hiking: be very reserved in using light. Most of the time you won't need it and if you do 1 lumen or less is already enough. 

This thread is a wise lesson: always bring a flashlight with you. Just don't use it. hehe 
Well: know if you should/when/how to use it. 

I'll think of it next time I visit a café or bar. [also this cpf-café]


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## TedTheLed (Aug 18, 2011)

*Re: Flashaholics possibly in more danger during emergency*

the link goes to this article

How to Get Out Alive
By AMANDA RIPLEY Monday, Apr. 25, 2005

but I don't see the flashlight story, read all 6 pps..
.
?


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## Sub_Umbra (Aug 18, 2011)

*Re: Flashaholics possibly in more danger during em*



enLIGHTenment said:


> A cheap and disposable light would be a handy decoy in questionable situations. Turn on an XNova cheepie, if the situation turns bad, throw the light away from your intended escape route. With luck, the people who in a state of panic will go for the light and clear from your escape route.


The last time this subject came around a poster suggested a few sacrificial Fauxtons to lite and throw away at the proper time.

Those who have noted surprise at this aspect of human personality should give crisis behavior more thought in their plans as this is *only one example* of mob rule that one must look out for in an emergency.

"Discretion is the better part of valor."


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## cdrake261 (Aug 18, 2011)

*Re: Flashaholics possibly in more danger during em*

Interesting read


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## RA40 (Aug 19, 2011)

*Re: Flashaholics possibly in more danger during em*

Good read. I often think since the March 11 quake in Japan where there is such devastation, the scarcity of a much needed item can have a premium and for some irrational types in panic...this can be very scary.


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## Satanta (Aug 20, 2011)

*Re: Flashaholics possibly in more danger during em*

I am an admin on a preperatiion/disaster/news forum...or also known as 'Doomers'.

One thing that has been a constant for the past 11 years is "Loose Lips Sink Ships", meaning 'Shut up about what you have." Also being ready to defend it and training not to panic.

Also another thing that comes up constantly are the ones who talk to someone else who says to them "Well, if something happens I am coming to _your_ house!"

Keep that in mind and even reguarding things like lights-tell only those you would *want* to have one about your lights/guns/food/whatever because the ones you don't want coming will show up as well.


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## EZO (Aug 20, 2011)

*Re: Flashaholics possibly in more danger during em*



Satanta said:


> I am an admin on a preperatiion/disaster/news forum...or also known as 'Doomers'.
> 
> One thing that has been a constant for the past 11 years is "Loose Lips Sink Ships", meaning 'Shut up about what you have." Also being ready to defend it and training not to panic.
> 
> ...



Wow, this post brings up some memories. I live in a rural setting where it is customary to have a woodstove, a generator, auxilliary lighting, firearms, extra food on hand, etc., just in case of say, a bad ice or snow storm or some other natural disaster or unexpected event. (It's happened many times over the years) During the Y2K "scare" I was amazed at how many people I know who live in more urban or suburban settings not that far away, including people who were merely acquaintances said, "If things get bad, I'll just come stay with you!". One of the things that struck me about this was that not a single person I know ever spoke of what they might be able to bring to the table during such an event such as food, water, tools, equipment, firearms, fuel, etc. EVERYONE who decided that they could come stay with me during an emergency just assumed that I would be willing and able to feed and house them. (And their pets!) With only one exception no one asked if this would be OK with me, they just announced that they would show up if things really got that bad. I would always come right out and tell them that if they did show up at my property during a situation like that they would not be too welcome and might in fact receive a rather unpleasant surprise.


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## TedTheLed (Aug 20, 2011)

*Re: Flashaholics possibly in more danger during emergency*

i googled the quote in Brighnorm's original post and found it here, in case any one is interested...

http://members.fortunecity.com/dayiel/beyond_9-11_time.html

Admin advisory: The above link has been altered to permit access only by deliberate effort, due to potential malware hazards.

Please see this advisory analysis of the site

Empath


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## TedTheLed (Aug 20, 2011)

*Re: Flashaholics possibly in more danger during emergency*

woah. ..sorry...I didn't know... 
I'll look for an alternate site with the same article..if anyone finds one, feel free to post...
It was an interesting article, and it contained the scene in the op...

how's this one Emp?

http://msbenglishclasses.wikispaces.com/file/view/If+You+Want+to+Humble+an+Empire+Article.docx


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## eh4 (Oct 26, 2011)

*Re: Flashaholics possibly in more danger during emergency*

Everyone is capable of panic, unless somehow you are alert while fully anesthetized. The thing is that we rely so much on previously thought out or acted out scripts for our routines that when something not covered by our routines comes along that is sufficiently threatening, only then do we discover the scripts that nature has left us with, time tested no matter how inappropriate they may be for a given emergency.
What I've heard (third hand) from collected inverviews of survivors the single thing that most of them shared was that they had a plan, we're not even talking about good plans, just a plan.
When the stress builds up someone with a plan has a chance to revert to that plan instead of being left with only freeze or frenzy. Our lives do flash before our eyes in extreme situations as our massive brains search for a GoodOption-VeryQuickly (as opposed to the Perfect answer Eventually).
So have a plan to make a habit of always having a plan.
I think it's fun, counting seat rows, guesstimating crowd mood, not assuming the other driver is accounting for you, not assuming that there will be safe tap water, etc. etc. The balance being to have fun with it and not let the countless situations become a preoccupation or a pressure slowly grinding us down. 
Maybe a sense of humor and cultivating love in our hearts is a top tier survival strategy.


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## PhotonWrangler (Oct 26, 2011)

*Re: Flashaholics possibly in more danger during emergency*



eh4 said:


> I think it's fun, counting seat rows, guesstimating crowd mood, not assuming the other driver is accounting for you...



I always assume that the other drive is not accounting for me, and I make a conscious effort to avoid straddling another vehicle at their blind spot. I also assume that others will be carrying an old incandescent maglight with dead batteries.


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## f22shift (Oct 26, 2011)

*Re: Flashaholics possibly in more danger during emergency*

this thread is so important and has alot of merits.

on the light topic, this thread was made in '05. I think in '11, most phones have some sort of light built in. So there are a majority of people who have access to an edc light. at least this my opinion. i've seen people use their phones as their main source of light in a variety of situations. kind of stupid because it is draining the power from their main communicator source. which i think is more important in an emergency.


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## TyJo (Oct 26, 2011)

*Re: Flashaholics possibly in more danger during emergency*



f22shift said:


> this thread is so important and has alot of merits.
> 
> on the light topic, this thread was made in '05. I think in '11, most phones have some sort of light built in. So there are a majority of people who have access to an edc light. at least this my opinion. i've seen people use their phones as their main source of light in a variety of situations. kind of stupid because it is draining the power from their main communicator source. which i think is more important in an emergency.


Good point but I have been in a situation when cell phones were unusable. Power was knocked out at a college campus and the cell phone towers were overwhelmed. I couldn't contact anyone for at least hour (I think). It may have been more or less, but the system was definitely stressed and I know my friends had the same problems as me (eliminating the possibility that it was only 1 service provider).


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## IlluminatedOne (Oct 27, 2011)

*Re: Flashaholics possibly in more danger during emergency*

IIRC that during emergency's its easier to send a text than a voice call as both are sent digitally but the text will use a lot less bandwidth which can be useful when the cell towers are overwhelmed and you need to contact someone, just in case that might be useful info .


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## DM51 (Oct 27, 2011)

*Re: Flashaholics possibly in more danger during emergency*



IlluminatedOne said:


> when the cell towers are overwhelmed


... and assuming there is still power available to the cell system (it would most likely fail in a major emergency).


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## Sub_Umbra (Oct 27, 2011)

*Re: Flashaholics possibly in more danger during em*

FWIW I've read that runtime of at least some cellphones may be *greatly reduced* in times of network outages. Apparently some phones spend all of their time (and battery) trying desperately to connect to dead nets.

If the outage seems like it may last a few days it might be best to turn the phone off all but a few minutes a couple times a day, when those close to you will know you are listening. The txt messages will be delivered when you power up.


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## Burgess (Oct 27, 2011)

*Re: Flashaholics possibly in more danger during em*

Excellent points here !


One thing i will add:


I've heard and read that Cell Phone systems (and towers) have a back-up power system.


However -- this backup power will ONLY last for a limited time.


Backup *Battery power* could be exhausted in several hours.


Backup Generators could easily run out of fuel within 24 hours.


Situations and conditions* could *make re-fueling those generators impossible.


Just FYI.


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## PhotonWrangler (Oct 27, 2011)

*Re: Flashaholics possibly in more danger during em*



Burgess said:


> Excellent points here !
> 
> 
> One thing i will add:
> ...



Correct, Burgess. Most (but not all) cell towers and all switching centers have backup power. Usually the central offices (called Mobile Telephone Switching Offices or Mobile Switching Centers) have multiple layers of backup power including batteries and generators. Some of the larger cell tower sites also have backup generators in addition to batteries, however some smaller sites only have battery backup. So you can't count on all cell towers remaining online for extended power outages. And yes, many cell phones do draw more current when it's constantly trying to connect to a tower in a bad signal area or from far away, so your runtime could be cut short if your closest tower is offline.


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## Illum (Oct 27, 2011)

*Re: Flashaholics possibly in more danger during emergency*



Ray_of_Light said:


> I have found myself in the total darkness more than once.
> Inside a cave, and on the top of a mountain. There is easy, turn your light on, and gain the exit or the return way.
> In underground facilities, no, you can do that. It is normal that if you are the only person with a light, somebody will take it off of your hand.
> People are not prepared to deal with the darkness.
> ...



excellent post, after going through this thread I am counting my blessings that, despite my reckless actions I have been privileged to be among people who are supportive during emergencies that did not lose lights as a result. 
However, this resulted to a subsequent change in my usage of lights in public places, even if I'm at the beach wearing nothing but shorts I am still able to work from 5mm up to CREE MC-E...but now I have learned to begin the chain with 5mms, E01s to be exact.


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## f22shift (Oct 27, 2011)

*Re: Flashaholics possibly in more danger during emergency*



IlluminatedOne said:


> IIRC that during emergency's its easier to send a text than a voice call as both are sent digitally but the text will use a lot less bandwidth which can be useful when the cell towers are overwhelmed and you need to contact someone, just in case that might be useful info .



texting seems more prevalent now. especially with kids. maybe in the future, the networks can hold out longer as people will text first out of habit. wishful thinking maybe.

i remember going to an outdoor concert in nyc awhile back. i became pretty popular with my tmobile cell phone(im cheap ) as the verizon/att folk couldn't get through to their friends to meet. i would think that these big companies in a major metro area could handle this amount of people but it was an eye opener. 

what i'm going to take away from this thread is..
1. don't show all your cards on your ability to the public
2. be able to say 'no' . it's something we learn as kids but forget as we are older because we are too conscience of other's feelings
3. have a plan for different scenarios discussed with your family/friends.
4. don't bother fixing my doorbell


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## iapyx (Oct 29, 2011)

*Re: Flashaholics possibly in more danger during emergency*



Ray_of_Light said:


> I have found myself in the total darkness more than once.
> Inside a cave, and on the top of a mountain. There is easy, turn your light on, and gain the exit or the return way.
> In underground facilities, no, you can do that. It is normal that if you are the only person with a light, somebody will take it off of your hand.
> People are not prepared to deal with the darkness.
> ...



This my friends, is the reason why your emergency light should be a clicky. Imagine being in such a situation and you have one hand free, or you carry the light in one hand only and this evil person comes towards you. A clicky is way more convenient than a twisty. Ok, I looked for a reason why I prefere clickies over twisties. Found one  
Seriously, I think ít's an issue.


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## PhotonWrangler (Oct 29, 2011)

*Re: Flashaholics possibly in more danger during emergency*



iapyx said:


> This my friends, is the reason why your emergency light should be a clicky. Imagine being in such a situation and you have one hand free, or you carry the light in one hand only and this evil person comes towards you. A clicky is way more convenient than a twisty. Ok, I looked for a reason why I prefere clickies over twisties. Found one
> Seriously, I think ít's an issue.



I agree, definitely a clickie switch. It's also easier to change modes with a clickie.


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## EZO (Oct 29, 2011)

*Re: Flashaholics possibly in more danger during emergency*



DM51 said:


> ... and assuming there is still power available to the cell system (it would most likely fail in a major emergency).



Not sure what final rules have been implemented but apparently there would be at least some period of emergency power back up of cell towers during a major emergency.

_"Recent rule making by the FCC has created a requirement that carriers increase or provide sufficient emergency/backup power at their cell sites. These backup power rules, which are currently being contested by CTIA and other entities, require that each cell site have eight hours of backup power. This rule was a direct response to the failure of numerous cell sites in the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina."_ - link


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## Lucciola (Oct 29, 2011)

*Re: Flashaholics possibly in more danger during emergency*

Just noticed this thread for the first time. Good read.

IMHO the power supply of the cell towers does not really matter, because every cell has only a certain capacity of calls it can handle. So whether the receiver/transmitter station has power or not - possibly you can't rely on your phone anyway because in an emergency everybody will use the phone. Maybe only to call the familly to tell them that she/he is fine.

And that's the thing to keep in mind. What do I do if I can't rely on my normal infrastructure (the cellphone being part of that). And I thought of the topic of the OP several times. People do not act rational in panic. In the boats of the Titanic were still empty seats because the people in the boats were scarred that the freezing and drowning crowd might sink the boat. 

So it might happen that someone carries a flashlight in a power outage panic situation - and comes out with a set of full batteries. Stange idea, indeed. But not unreasonable.

So why carry a flashlight anyway, if you may not be able to use it when you need it most? Answer: To have the choice and make the best of it in a given situation.


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## cdrake261 (Oct 29, 2011)

*Re: Flashaholics possibly in more danger during emergency*



PhotonWrangler said:


> I agree, definitely a clickie switch. It's also easier to change modes with a clickie.



Reason why I switched my XML micro mag to a clicky with a terralux switch.


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## ico (Nov 13, 2011)

*Re: Flashaholics possibly in more danger during emergency*

I always had the notion of using my light immediately when the lights go off in an emergency situation. This made me think of the hazard I may add to myself and others with this kind of thinking. Mind should always work first in an emergency and not what you have in your hands. Keep calm and then make a plan. By no means I would stop carrying since I would still have the option of using it or not. Better to have an option than nothing at all. 

We should bump this thread from time to time to let others know. A sticky would be nice


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## Quiksilver (Nov 16, 2011)

*Re: Flashaholics possibly in more danger during em*

A flashlight should always be carried in tandem with an appropriate defensive tool such as an edged tool or firearm. 

When the barbarians approach to take your flashlight, your defensive skills combined with a defensive tool should be suitable to protect your illumination tool.

Even as I write this pots, HDS Rotary on the kitchen table and Spyderco PM2 in waistband.


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## Burgess (Nov 17, 2011)

*Re: Flashaholics possibly in more danger during em*

I've deleted my post, since the one Previous to mine is now Gone.


Nevermind. 
_


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## tel0004 (Nov 17, 2011)

*Re: Flashaholics possibly in more danger during em*

I think this article is a bit outdated due to changes in technology. In 2001, cell phones were common, but camera's (and the flash of a camera) were not as common. So in 2001, most people didn't have flashlights, and didn't have a flash on their camera. 

Today, I see people qutie often pulling out their cell phone and using their flash as a light. In an emergency, most people wouldn't think to do that, but once one person does it, a few more people will think its a great idea, and do the same. Even without a camera flash, a cell phone screen makes a decent light (although not so much through thick smoke.) Because of this, I think most people can light up a room pretty easily, even if they don't realize it.


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## MikeAusC (Nov 17, 2011)

*Re: Flashaholics possibly in more danger during em*



Quiksilver said:


> A flashlight should always be carried in tandem with an appropriate defensive tool such as an edged tool or firearm. . . . .



It's safer to use a decoy to move the violence away from you.

I carry a 50 cent keyring light in case someone desperately needs me to give them a light I don't mind losing.

In this scenario I would switch on the keyring light and throw it - while everyone claws each other to grab it - I'll silently slink away.


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## DM51 (Nov 17, 2011)

*Re: Flashaholics possibly in more danger during em*

Posts that advocate the use of flashlights for violent purposes will be deleted.


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## Quiksilver (Jan 14, 2012)

*Cruise ship sinks: EDC light anyone?*

What a great time to have an EDC light ...

Ship runs aground on a reef at night.

It tips over sideways with passengers still on board and:



> “We were crawling up a hallway, in the dark, with only the light from the life vest strobe flashing,” her mother, Georgia Ananias, 61 said. “We could hear plates and dishes crashing, people slamming against walls.”



http://www.washingtonpost.com/world...d/2012/01/13/gIQA9kfSxP_story.html?tid=pm_pop

In that situation I would want a headlamp.


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## GrnXnham (Jan 14, 2012)

*Re: Cruise ship sinks: EDC light anyone?*

Something waterproof might also be a good call.


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## Illum (Jan 14, 2012)

*Re: Cruise ship sinks: EDC light anyone?*

Someone revive that "using EDC endangers user" thread, 
There was a thread on here, long ago, that mentioned someone in the WTC who pulled out a light and was attacked by everyone around him [her?]. There are certain situations in which pulling out a light may endanger yourself. When everyone is panicking, there would be no point, no matter how urgent it may seem, to draw attention to yourself.


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## PhotonWrangler (Jan 14, 2012)

*Re: Cruise ship sinks: EDC light anyone?*

I was thinking the same thing. In a situation like that it would seem fairly likely that any individual with a flashlight would be at risk of being attacked for the light. On the other hand, if you used it on the ceiling as a bounce light to illuminate a larger area, it might help to defuse the panic.


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## Quiksilver (Jan 16, 2012)

*Re: Cruise ship sinks: EDC light anyone?*

In the initial panic I agree. 

How about 24hrs after when you're trapped in a submerged part of the ship?


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## fyrstormer (Jan 16, 2012)

*Re: Cruise ship sinks: EDC light anyone?*



PhotonWrangler said:


> I was thinking the same thing. In a situation like that it would seem fairly likely that any individual with a flashlight would be at risk of being attacked for the light. On the other hand, if you used it on the ceiling as a bounce light to illuminate a larger area, it might help to defuse the panic.


It's about control. In an emergency situation with a large number of people involved, everyone will feel powerless and many people will act out of desperation to get even the tiniest amount of control, even if it's only the ability to see where they're walking. Ceiling-bounce might seem like a reasonable answer, but it doesn't give anyone else the assurance of being able to control where the light shines, and in that situation you're not dealing with reasonable people in the first place.


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## Larbo (Jan 16, 2012)

*Re: Cruise ship sinks: EDC light anyone?*

Or in this situation maybe a cruse employee thinks he is entitled to take possession of your light to lead people out, I have news for them, me and mine come first.
In an emergency I would never give up a torch even to a LEO, period.


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## TEEJ (Jan 16, 2012)

*Re: Cruise ship sinks: EDC light anyone?*

Obviously, carry enough lights to, um, diffuse the situation.


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## Kestrel (Jan 16, 2012)

*Re: Cruise ship sinks: EDC light anyone?*



Illum said:


> Someone revive that "using EDC endangers user" thread,
> There was a thread on here, long ago, that mentioned someone in the WTC who pulled out a light and was attacked by everyone around him [her?]. There are certain situations in which pulling out a light may endanger yourself. When everyone is panicking, there would be no point, no matter how urgent it may seem, to draw attention to yourself.


Good suggestion Illum, I have merged this 'Cruise ship sinks' thread with that very good thread on this topic.


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## fyrstormer (Jan 16, 2012)

*Re: Flashaholics possibly in more danger during em*



JasonC8301 said:


> Wow, never thought of it in that light. Seems like a situation where the E2D or Surefire M6 with crenulated bezel can come in handy for self defense. Can smash a few eyes and take a few people out and have them back away (let alone the light from the M6 to take them down.)
> If they want my light, they better earn the right to take it by taking me down or taking me with it.
> 
> Hence why I sometimes apply the term "Use the light when the situation warrants it."


...and then the police hear reports of "some dude with a flashlight attacking people" and you get arrested for defending yourself. Not the best idea ever.


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## fyrstormer (Jan 16, 2012)

*Re: Flashaholics possibly in more danger during em*



EZO said:


> Wow, this post brings up some memories. I live in a rural setting where it is customary to have a woodstove, a generator, auxilliary lighting, firearms, extra food on hand, etc., just in case of say, a bad ice or snow storm or some other natural disaster or unexpected event. (It's happened many times over the years) During the Y2K "scare" I was amazed at how many people I know who live in more urban or suburban settings not that far away, including people who were merely acquaintances said, "If things get bad, I'll just come stay with you!". One of the things that struck me about this was that not a single person I know ever spoke of what they might be able to bring to the table during such an event such as food, water, tools, equipment, firearms, fuel, etc. EVERYONE who decided that they could come stay with me during an emergency just assumed that I would be willing and able to feed and house them. (And their pets!) With only one exception no one asked if this would be OK with me, they just announced that they would show up if things really got that bad. I would always come right out and tell them that if they did show up at my property during a situation like that they would not be too welcome and might in fact receive a rather unpleasant surprise.


Probably what they figured they could "bring to the table" was money and manpower. Both are useful, though money becomes less useful the longer a disaster scenario persists.


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## fyrstormer (Jan 16, 2012)

*Re: Flashaholics possibly in more danger during em*



Sub_Umbra said:


> FWIW I've read that runtime of at least some cellphones may be *greatly reduced* in times of network outages. Apparently some phones spend all of their time (and battery) trying desperately to connect to dead nets.
> 
> If the outage seems like it may last a few days it might be best to turn the phone off all but a few minutes a couple times a day, when those close to you will know you are listening. The txt messages will be delivered when you power up.


That is what "Airplane Mode" is for. It shuts off all the wireless functions to reduce radio interference, and has the secondary effect of extending battery life.


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## fyrstormer (Jan 16, 2012)

*Re: Flashaholics possibly in more danger during emergency*



Lucciola said:


> IMHO the power supply of the cell towers does not really matter, because every cell has only a certain capacity of calls it can handle. So whether the receiver/transmitter station has power or not - possibly you can't rely on your phone anyway because in an emergency everybody will use the phone. Maybe only to call the familly to tell them that she/he is fine.


My landlord when I was finishing college was in Manhattan on 9/11. He said all the cell networks were down, but Blackberries could send emails, because text services are provided using the "idle bandwidth" that cell towers use to keep track of all the cellphones within broadcast range. So there's a lesson: in an emergency, send text messages. You can convey information much more efficiently that way. Nobody needs digital streaming audio of your voice just to get a "yes I'm still alive" status update.


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## jzmtl (Jan 16, 2012)

*Re: Flashaholics possibly in more danger during emergency*



fyrstormer said:


> My landlord when I was finishing college was in Manhattan on 9/11. He said all the cell networks were down, but Blackberries could send emails, because text services are provided using the "idle bandwidth" that cell towers use to keep track of all the cellphones within broadcast range. So there's a lesson: in an emergency, send text messages. You can convey information much more efficiently that way. Nobody needs digital streaming audio of your voice just to get a "yes I'm still alive" status update.



Good time to find out about your cell company's email gateway, many companies offer a way to send email via text message, or even convert to voice mail to a land line.


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## Kestrel (Jan 17, 2012)

*Re: Cruise ship sinks: EDC light anyone?*

An interesting transcript of the conversation between the ship's captain and the port authority is here. Sad and a little bit creepy.
Official CPF quote included below: 


> *Schettino*: "Are you aware that it is dark here and we cannot see anything?"


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## Sub_Umbra (Jan 17, 2012)

*Re: Cruise ship sinks: EDC light anyone?*

Thanks for that link. Ugh! I tell my friends they have to know *more* before they decide which outfit to cruise with. 85% of the really dangerous lines may be ruled out by following the first rule: Don't set foot on vessels registered under flags of convenience like Liberia, Panama, etc., unless you have a blood relative working on that ship. 

Aside from the obvious safety issues one needs to remember that should any crimes of property theft or violence occur on the cruise you won't be dealing with your own police or Federal government. It'll be a whole 'nother system you'll have to look to for justice. When you are on a cruise ship you are legally on a piece of the country its registered to. 

Anyway, if anything untoward happens try to look on the bright side. Didn't the travel agent say that this might be the trip of a lifetime? 

I spent five years on US flagged merchant vessels, often under arduous conditions. The last vessel I worked on was a *sailing gambling casino* in international waters under Panamanian flag.

I'm wary enough of what goes on that I probably wouldn't be comfortable on a vessel I wasn't crewing.

Its all fun 'til someone puts an eye out.


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## Quiksilver (Jan 18, 2012)

*Re: Cruise ship sinks: EDC light anyone?*



fyrstormer said:


> It's about control. In an emergency situation with a large number of people involved, everyone will feel powerless and many people will act out of desperation to get even the tiniest amount of control, even if it's only the ability to see where they're walking. Ceiling-bounce might seem like a reasonable answer, but it doesn't give anyone else the assurance of being able to control where the light shines, and in that situation you're not dealing with reasonable people in the first place.



It would seem, that in a panic emergency with lots of people, one should only use a high-powered light (highly visible) if one has the means to defend themselves and their light.


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## TEEJ (Jan 18, 2012)

*Re: Cruise ship sinks: EDC light anyone?*

I've been in situations where the lights go out, and people are screaming, and, frankly, I think the whole idea that all of your cohorts will suddenly turn into photon eating zombies and attack you is a bit overblown.

In real life, if you have the light, and know how to "get out", simply turn it on, and yell - "Everyone, Follow Me Out !" - And they will follow you out, because the panic is assuaged by the proffered solution. IE: You are telling them they will be safe if they follow you, so they do, because that's what they want.

As long as someone is "In Charge" and has a "Solution", the mob will simply follow that person to safety.

The guys who get attacked by zombies in those situations simply turn on the light, and then are looking around panicked like everyone else, so, someone will then figure if THEY had the light, maybe THEY could find their way out, etc...and that's when they "go for it".


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## cue003 (Jan 18, 2012)

*Re: Cruise ship sinks: EDC light anyone?*

Interesting points and good things for many of us to think about and it can extend to any type of disaster about what needs to be thought about before whipping out your 500-900 lumen high dollar surefire to get around. 

Many things on this thread, I have thought about when it comes to emergency situations and it becomes survival of the fittest and when people are desperate they do desperate things for their survival.

It even doesn't just apply to lights. I saw an article about a man interviewed that was getting life vests for him and his family and they were down to the last few for the area where he was looking and other people panicked and started to try to take away the vests from him and ended up ripping a few vests thereby making them not usable.


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## Quiksilver (Jan 19, 2012)

*Re: Cruise ship sinks: EDC light anyone?*

That is a good point about being in command of yourself and the situation. If you represent calmness and knowledge of a solution in the panic, people are more likely to follow you than assault you.

Perhaps finding a few bigger guys around you and form a little team. Say you'll lead the way out but need their help to keep panicked people away. 

Every CPFer should possess (acquire) the leadership qualities and knowledge of surroundings to lead their fellow humans to safety in an emergency.  

That, and always having a small bucket of Fenix E01s with you to throw to the panicked people to keep them at bay.


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## fyrstormer (Jan 19, 2012)

*Re: Cruise ship sinks: EDC light anyone?*



Quiksilver said:


> It would seem, that in a panic emergency with lots of people, one should only use a high-powered light (highly visible) if one has the means to defend themselves and their light.


Even then it's a bad idea in an enclosed space. In a panic situation, you can only defend yourself in full view of the same people for a short time before you become a threat in their minds, and they start working to neutralize you. In an emergency, people will deal with the most easily-dealt-with threats first, even if those threats are minor. Don't become a threat if you want to live.

If you can't use the tools at your disposal to bring order to a chaotic situation, it's better to just leave as quickly as possible and take care of your own. If you don't have the option to leave, as in a sinking ship or a burning building, try to bring order, but don't advertise that you've got equipment, because tools imply power, and everyone will want some power.



TEEJ said:


> In real life, if you have the light, and know how to "get out", simply turn it on, and yell - "Everyone, Follow Me Out !" - And they will follow you out, because the panic is assuaged by the proffered solution. IE: You are telling them they will be safe if they follow you, so they do, because that's what they want.
> 
> ...
> 
> The guys who get attacked by zombies in those situations simply turn on the light, and then are looking around panicked like everyone else, so, someone will then figure if THEY had the light, maybe THEY could find their way out, etc...and that's when they "go for it".


Yes, this is what I mean by "bringing order to a chaotic situation." If you are going to wield whatever power you have, you better use it to achieve a specific and obviously-positive goal or it will just become a source of contention.


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## eh4 (Jan 19, 2012)

*Re: Cruise ship sinks: EDC light anyone?*

The last couple points brought up make this thread more and more interesting to me.
The psychology of leadership, command presence; the ideal to me is to stay out of the way but be ready to jump in when the need is there and I see a solution -and be ready to jump right back out of that role as soon as my function in that capacity is done.

On a more McGyverish note, how about a bright and disposable "sticky" light? You'd give it a toss at the ceiling or high on a wall out of reach and there it would stay, ideally coming on a few seconds after impact, lighting the area without disclosing who supplied it, giving a group the opportunity to come together and make some sense.


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## PhotonWrangler (Jan 19, 2012)

*Re: Cruise ship sinks: EDC light anyone?*



eh4 said:


> On a more McGyverish note, how about a bright and disposable "sticky" light? You'd give it a toss at the ceiling or high on a wall out of reach and there it would stay, ideally coming on a few seconds after impact, lighting the area without disclosing who supplied it, giving a group the opportunity to come together and make some sense.



Something like this lightmine is close. I doubt that it's that bright, but it's something that can be tossed and will stick to a ferrous surface.


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## AnAppleSnail (Jan 19, 2012)

*Re: Cruise ship sinks: EDC light anyone?*

Sticky pads are getting pretty good. 3 Lithium AAAs, a Cree and resistor, with a rip-to-expose sticky pad could be placed interestingly.


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## fyrstormer (Jan 20, 2012)

*Re: Cruise ship sinks: EDC light anyone?*

That's an interesting idea, but the likelihood of anyone actually carrying a one-time-use sticky light (or multiple, since most buildings have more than one room) just for that once-in-a-lifetime need, is extremely small. Also, you'd have to throw it perfectly to get the light to stick properly, with the emitter pointing down. It's not a practical solution, and in my mind it would also be extremely wasteful since it would be single-use and non-serviceable. Public buildings are required to have battery-powered emergency lighting for this purpose.

Just carry a normal flashlight that you can use more than once, and be mindful of the state of mind other people are in before you say "pardon me while I whip 'dis out."


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## MikeAusC (Jan 20, 2012)

*Re: Cruise ship sinks: EDC light anyone?*

. . . and the chance of the magnets erasing your credit card magstripe are very high.


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## eh4 (Jan 21, 2012)

*Re: Cruise ship sinks: EDC light anyone?*

...yeah, it's not very practical, just a thought.
It would need to be a new kind of light, kind of like a cylume on steroids, maybe something like a pack of chewing gum that would be ripped open and mushed inside out, then thrown at a flat surface.


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## PhotonWrangler (Jan 21, 2012)

*Re: Cruise ship sinks: EDC light anyone?*



eh4 said:


> ...yeah, it's not very practical, just a thought.
> It would need to be a new kind of light, kind of like a cylume on steroids, maybe something like a pack of chewing gum that would be ripped open and mushed inside out, then thrown at a flat surface.



This got me to thinking. How about a cyalume silly putty that can be rolled up into a ball and tossed at a ceiling? For that matter it could be packaged into clear plastic balls that could be fired out of a t-shirt cannon. Foop--->splat! Instant light anywhere.


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## TEEJ (Jan 21, 2012)

*Re: Cruise ship sinks: EDC light anyone?*

LOL

How about just installing emergency lights everywhere you'll be that doesn't already have emergency lighting, so that if the lights go out, they'll come on?


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## PhotonWrangler (Jan 21, 2012)

*Re: Cruise ship sinks: EDC light anyone?*



TEEJ said:


> LOL
> 
> How about just installing emergency lights everywhere you'll be that doesn't already have emergency lighting, so that if the lights go out, they'll come on?



This is assuming that emergency lights have been installed but are inoperable. I've personally seen many cases where emergency lights have been installed but not maintained, and they give out a few seconds of very dim light before quitting. That recent cruise ship tragedy is an example of a situation where hallways were completely dark.

I just don't trust those old lights with nicad packs and incandescent bulbs. The nicads build up a memory and only run for a few seconds, and the incandescents drain the remaining power quickly.

Where I work we have an aggressive safety program and they keep on top of this stuff, but there are too many places where they install those emergency lights and then forget about them.


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## Imon (Jan 22, 2012)

*Re: Cruise ship sinks: EDC light anyone?*



PhotonWrangler said:


> This is assuming that emergency lights have been installed but are inoperable. I've personally seen many cases where emergency lights have been installed but not maintained, and they give out a few seconds of very dim light before quitting. That recent cruise ship tragedy is an example of a situation where hallways were completely dark.
> 
> I just don't trust those old lights with nicad packs and incandescent bulbs. The nicads build up a memory and only run for a few seconds, and the incandescents drain the remaining power quickly.
> 
> Where I work we have an aggressive safety program and they keep on top of this stuff, but there are too many places where they install those emergency lights and then forget about them.



You'd think they would test these at least once a year to see if they worked. :shakehead


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## fyrstormer (Jan 23, 2012)

*Re: Cruise ship sinks: EDC light anyone?*

Some building codes require it. On board a ship, I suppose the only codes that would apply are the codes enforced by the ship's home port, and people who own ships are pretty notorious for picking the least-demanding ports to register their ships in.

Hopefully this incident will give whatever port the Costa Concordia was registered in a reason to consider mandating backup-lighting checks on passenger vessels.


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## fyrstormer (Jan 23, 2012)

*Re: Cruise ship sinks: EDC light anyone?*



PhotonWrangler said:


> This got me to thinking. How about a cyalume silly putty that can be rolled up into a ball and tossed at a ceiling? For that matter it could be packaged into clear plastic balls that could be fired out of a t-shirt cannon. Foop--->splat! Instant light anywhere.


Or maybe just carry a package of 1-hour bright glowsticks when you plan to go on a cruise? I'm pretty sure you'd never get on board a ship with anything that shot any kind of projectile, not even a marshmallow gun.


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## Imon (Jan 23, 2012)

*Re: Cruise ship sinks: EDC light anyone?*



fyrstormer said:


> Or maybe just carry a package of 1-hour bright glowsticks when you plan to go on a cruise? I'm pretty sure you'd never get on board a ship with anything that shot any kind of projectile, not even a marshmallow gun.



Glowsticks aren't very bright though ... although it's better than nothing. I think the idea here was that if you put up a source of light that was inaccessible to people they won't attempt to grab it and run off with it for their own selfish needs.
It would be a pretty sad sight to see a opportunistic passenger run off with a glow stick that was meant to help multiple people.


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## Sub_Umbra (Jan 23, 2012)

*Re: Cruise ship sinks: EDC light anyone?*



fyrstormer said:


> Some building codes require it. *On board a ship, I suppose the only codes that would apply are the codes enforced by the ship's home port*, and people who own ships are pretty notorious for picking the least-demanding ports to register their ships in.
> 
> Hopefully this incident will give whatever port the Costa Concordia was registered in a reason to consider mandating backup-lighting checks on passenger vessels.



Emphasis mine.

Cities don't do that. *Federal governments* make those decisions about the health, safety and structural requirements of the vessels they certify. They also handle enforcement, inspections and criminal investigations on vessels. 

While some ports are less expensive to operate from than others they are all governed by the same health, safety and structural requirements as every other port in that country.

If one wants to build a substandard ship one must shop around for a favorable *country,* not *port.*


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## Empire (Aug 20, 2012)

*Re: Flashaholics possibly in more danger during emergency*

Most people I interact with I give to them a flashlight and that shut the **** up.


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## AnAppleSnail (Aug 21, 2012)

*Re: Cruise ship sinks: EDC light anyone?*



fyrstormer said:


> Or maybe just carry a package of 1-hour bright glowsticks when you plan to go on a cruise? I'm pretty sure you'd never get on board a ship with anything that shot any kind of projectile, not even a marshmallow gun.



HDS Systems on "Why Cyalumes® and Other Chemical Light Sticks Make Poor Backup Lights"


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## PhotonWrangler (Aug 21, 2012)

*Re: Cruise ship sinks: EDC light anyone?*



AnAppleSnail said:


> HDS Systems on "Why Cyalumes® and Other Chemical Light Sticks Make Poor Backup Lights"



Interesting article. Thanks for sharing this. Apparently there needs to be a ruggedized version of the cyalume sticks with a much tougher internal capsule.


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## MidnightDistortions (Jan 22, 2015)

*Re: Cruise ship sinks: EDC light anyone?*



brightnorm said:


> Saw this TIME archive article about 9/11. Here's the excerpt which may have special significance for us.
> 
> _...."The terror triggered other reactions besides heroism. Robert Falcon worked in the parking garage at the towers: 'When the blast shook it went dark and we all went down, and I had a flashlight and everyone was screaming at me. People were ripping my shirt to try and get to my flashlight, and they were crushing me. The whole crowd was on top of me wanting the flashlight.'..."_
> 
> ...



Wow that is quite alarming indeed.




Lightraven said:


> Interesting. "In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king." Or in the darkness, the guy/gal with the flashlight is a target.
> 
> In any emergency, it is best not to reveal your capabilities before necessary, whether weapons or survival equipment such as water, flashlights, money, etc.
> 
> ...



That might be the best way of doing things, you don't have to have leader experience either just ask everyone if they are ok and then if needed help those who are injured and then ask others to look for an exit. I'd also hope that a few other folks might be carrying around a flashlight or two, possibly a reason why we need more EDC flashlight speeches.



fyrstormer said:


> That is what "Airplane Mode" is for. It shuts off all the wireless functions to reduce radio interference, and has the secondary effect of extending battery life.



Good to know, i'll have to try that out on my phone


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## etc (Jan 23, 2015)

During a massive black-out, your light can be seen for hundreds of meters, if not miles in the right climate, even on a low setting. Attracting unwanted attention.


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## Monocrom (Jan 23, 2015)

Part of my EDC is a small coin-cell light with a permanent-on feature. If things get really bad, I switch off my main light, switch on the coin-cell cheapie, and let the particular animals of humanity who are near me.... fight it out amongst themselves who'll get the prize.


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## blah9 (Jan 24, 2015)

This is a really interesting thread. Thank you to everyone who has shared thoughts and experiences! I'm always hyper-aware of people being around when I use lights and prefer to use them when not around anyone else or at least keep them on low. Sometimes even in normal situations in urban environments it seems like it can be a good idea to not use a light if it's not necessary, at least in my opinion. Sometimes it can attract unwanted attention even when you're just doing mundane tasks.


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## reppans (Jan 25, 2015)

*Flashaholics possibly in more danger during emergency*

I wonder if this risk is still relevant.

9-11 was in 2001 and this thread started in 2005. The iPhone, first introduced 2007, started the smartphone craze and now it seems like if you were to sample 10 random people on an NYC subway, ~7 of them would have a smartphone on them, and I think most know about the built-in flashlight apps by now.

I don't think we'd see a repeat of the scenario in the OP any more.... a least initially when most folks tend to be most panicked. A smartphone's battery certainly won't last as long as our flashlights, but I think they'd at least get their owners to a safe place with alternative options and/or mindset.

Then again, a nighttime tsunami might do it


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## PhotonWrangler (Jan 25, 2015)

*Re: Flashaholics possibly in more danger during emergency*

That's a valid point, reppans. Smartphones with flashlight-mode are fairly ubiquitous now, although I suspect that a fair number of owners don't know how to get to that mode quickly. I didn't at first.


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## rickypanecatyl (Jan 25, 2015)

*Re: Flashaholics possibly in more danger during emergency*

Wow - old thread revived! 

My .02 would be to remind us flashaholics to not be selfish by "showing off" your light and then not continuing to help. I'm in situations all the time in huge villages/small cities in the middle of nowhere with no electricity/light where people are walking treacherous paths at night. At first I always used my lights in those situation but realized I can make things quite a bit worse for everyone else. When I turn on 1000 lumens lighting everything up and then drop it down to 1 lumen to just light my path I just wrecked everyone elses night vision and am looking out for myself.


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## Monocrom (Jan 26, 2015)

*Re: Flashaholics possibly in more danger during emergency*



reppans said:


> I wonder if this risk is still relevant.
> 
> 9-11 was in 2001 and this thread started in 2005. The iPhone, first introduced 2007, started the smartphone craze and now it seems like if you were to sample 10 random people on an NYC subway, ~7 of them would have a smartphone on them, and I think most know about the built-in flashlight apps by now.
> 
> ...



You're assuming that folks will stay cool, calm and rational when the lights go out. The train screeches to a halt and they realize they're trapped underground when the doors don't open. I ride the subway every night and I see few folks who look like they would not freak out.


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## H.J.M. (Jan 30, 2015)

*Re: Flashaholics possibly in more danger during emergency*

Sometimes it is better to be in the dark. 
I know if for some reason I do not have my light in a dark emergency, the guy with light better have some common sense or I would understand the urge to confiscate it. That is very true. 
I've been in the unexpected dark many times, basements, maintenance tunnels, cellars etc, where it is pitch dark. No ambient lights anywhere, spiders, rats, water sometimes worse... But never in a crowd. Crowds offer a different kind of danger. It is best to avoid these situations altogether, but if for some reason it is unavoidable, there are some good tactics here. Packing a few cheap lights to hand to the biggest guys to keep the crowd somewhat enlightened may be worth the $40-$50 most likely lost. My edc is for me and no one else, but I don't take busses, subways or attend large group functions anymore. I work and go camping when possible. 
For those of you who do go to concerts, take busses, subways and what ever else floats your boats. If an emergency arises, and you think your the only person with a light, take control of the situation or find someone who can and offer your light. What ever is safer for you. If you are not prepared to give up your light, get ready to take control by being prepared mentally. 
At a young age I learned C.p.r, and first aid. Then I got some training on emergency response in the wilderness. I also learned how to open elevator doors without the buttons from inside. Incase they stopped. Which has saved me many hours of waiting on several occasions. 
I never thought I would use CPR or first aid. My parents did it so they had a free fully qualified babysitter for my younger siblings. Never needed it then but I have used it on many occasions.. Parties where people fall, overdose, fight, and the occasional car accident. Every time I had my light, because I took control or helped the obviously more qualified person, no one would think of taking the light. 

Great thread.. Makes me think and I like that.


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## Bullzeyebill (Jan 30, 2015)

*Re: Flashaholics possibly in more danger during emergency*



H.J.M. said:


> Great thread.. Makes me think and I like that.


 
Good post. :thumbsup:

Bill


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## Chauncey Gardiner (Jan 31, 2015)

*Re: Flashaholics possibly in more danger during emergency*


*A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky, dangerous animals and you know it.
- Agent K *


~ C.G.


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## martinaee (Feb 11, 2015)

*Re: Flashaholics possibly in more danger during emergency*



H.J.M. said:


> Sometimes it is better to be in the dark.
> I know if for some reason I do not have my light in a dark emergency, the guy with light better have some common sense or I would understand the urge to confiscate it. That is very true.
> I've been in the unexpected dark many times, basements, maintenance tunnels, cellars etc, where it is pitch dark. No ambient lights anywhere, spiders, rats, water sometimes worse... But never in a crowd. Crowds offer a different kind of danger. It is best to avoid these situations altogether, but if for some reason it is unavoidable, there are some good tactics here. Packing a few cheap lights to hand to the biggest guys to keep the crowd somewhat enlightened may be worth the $40-$50 most likely lost. My edc is for me and no one else, but I don't take busses, subways or attend large group functions anymore. I work and go camping when possible.
> For those of you who do go to concerts, take busses, subways and what ever else floats your boats. If an emergency arises, and you think your the only person with a light, take control of the situation or find someone who can and offer your light. What ever is safer for you. If you are not prepared to give up your light, get ready to take control by being prepared mentally.
> ...



It's why I think a light like an E01 is still one of the best lights out there for utility. You could store 4 of them with lithium cells in the off position in a small emergency pack and it would take up almost no room. Put new cells in them every few years just to be safe if you want. If you did have them in a really dark emergency you could give them to other people who aren't freaking out.

They aren't that bright, but simple and easy to use. I guess you could go for something brighter if you want, but you get the idea. Maybe E05's (not the multi mode versions) but the battery won't last as long on those. I love my ~25 lumen E05. I try to carry it with me more than any other light for one reason... I'm more likely to have it on me because it's so small!


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