# LiFePO4 RCR123A 3.0V Batteries



## bspofford (Jul 24, 2007)

I've been considering purchasing AW's LiFePO4 3.2V batteries, but @ $6 they have only 500mAH and don't seem to have any overcharge or discharge protection. I have been using Tenergy 3.0V Li-ion batteries with 900 mAH and both overcharge and discharge protection at a cost of about $4 per cell. Today I came across a Tenergy LiFePO4 RCR123A 3.0V at All-Battery that reports 750 mAH and overcharge and discharge protection with a sale price of only $2.39 per cell. Does anybody have experience with LiFePO4 cells, and can I trust that the Tenergy cells are really 750 mAH?


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## jsr (Jul 24, 2007)

It's been reported on CPF that the 900mAh Tenergy cells don't really have any more capacity than their competitors. Based on that, I doubt the Tenergy LiFePO4 cells would have much better capacity than AW's cells. If there is a difference, I doubt it would be noticeable during normal usage of a light (which is typically on and off cycles and not continuous).


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## Matt Sutton (Jul 24, 2007)

I have both AW's and Tenergy's LiFEPO4. AW's have definitely have more capacity. I get about 10 more minutes of runtime with AW cells than Tenergy in my Inova T1. The Tenergy cells do have an advantage. They are noticeably smaller in diameter than the AW cells. They are nearly identical in diameter to the Energizer E2 primaries that came with my light. I've been throwing around the idea of picking up a new Cree surefire and giving the Tenergy cells a go. All-Battery has a coupon good for a few percent off and free shipping. I got my Tenergy cells for about $1.80/cell delivered.
The code is independence, and it still worked as of Sunday evening.


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## gunga (Jul 24, 2007)

I think the main advantage to the Tenergy's is the size as mentioned. THat's pretty cool! Too bad that the capacity is even lower than the AW's!

I don't see any over discharge or overcharge protection in either cell. Ithink it's just the safe nature of the cells (they function a lot like Nimh, so inherently safe with protection circuitry).

THe Tenergy's seem to have a discharge limit of 550 ma, I thought the AW's were good for higher current than that...

Someone will have to compare since this is a good price. Gotta check the shipping to Canada...


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## gunga (Jul 24, 2007)

Hey one thing I noticed...

The pictures of the Tenergy cell all say Li-ion, not LiFEP04, these are the same picture as the 750 mah Li-on (3.0V) cells found at battery junction.

Are we sure these are LiFEPO4? I know the description says so, but the picture does not. I took a quick peek at the Tenergy website (which sucks) and saw no LiFePO4...


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## Matt Sutton (Jul 24, 2007)

My Tenergy cells have no indication of chemistry inside. They just say:

"750mAh RCR123A 3.0V"
"RECHARGEABLE LI-ON BATTERY"

IMO they are definitely LiFEPO4 cells based on their performance and behavior


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## gunga (Jul 24, 2007)

Matt Sutton said:


> My Tenergy cells have no indication of chemistry inside. They just say:
> 
> "750mAh RCR123A 3.0V"
> "RECHARGEABLE LI-ON BATTERY"
> ...


 
Please explain the performance and behavior. They sound like 3.0V li-on, NOT LiFEPO4, but I don't own any so can't say for certain. 

Li-ON implies Lithium Ion.

It should say LiFEPO4 somewhere...

Take a look at Battery Junction, they have the same cell and it is not speced as LiFEPO4.

I think maybe All-Battery may have it wrong... (maybe).


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## Matt Sutton (Jul 24, 2007)

The performance and behavior are nearly identical to AW's cells, only with slightly less runtime. The starting voltage is the same, and I've drawn them down as low as 1.6V without any negative effects. If they were regular RCR123 they wouldn't have sprung back from that.


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## gunga (Jul 24, 2007)

Hmmm. yeah.

The description at Battery JUnction could be a bit ambiguous too.

I can only ask that MattK from BJ chime in, since you could be right.

If so, this would be a nice cheaper source of LiFEPO4 batteries...

:devil:


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## LEDcandle (Jul 24, 2007)

Hmm the Tenergys are discharge protected yet they can hit 1.6v? 

I've had li-ons bounce back from 1+v too and work just fine. I doubt that's a good indicator. I guess we'll need more definite feedback.


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## bspofford (Jul 24, 2007)

I have had Tenergy Li-ion 3.0V 900 mAH batteries for some time, and they do seem to have protection against over discharge. My Li-ion cells are blue, and the new LiFePO4 cells are yellow. The All-Battery description clearly advertises that the LiFePO4 chemistry is safer. Is it possible that these new batteries do have a higher capacity than an older version?


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## bspofford (Jul 24, 2007)

I forgot to mention that All-Battery also advertises that these can be recharged upto 2000 cycles as opposed to Li-ion cells that can typically be charged only 500 cycles. If they last four times as long, they would be really cheap at less than $2.00 per cell.


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## johnny13oi (Jul 24, 2007)

I hear that these LiFePO4 batts usually have about half the energy densities as the normal Li-ions. Is this true and do yall notice the difference between using these and the Li-ions of the same size.


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## bspofford (Jul 25, 2007)

I copied the following from the All-Battery advertisement for this "New" product:

*New Chemical LiFePO4 Li-Ion battery *

Rechargeable LiFePO4 RCR123A 3.0V 750mAhBattery
Life cycle: 2000 times (Traditional Li-ion: 500 times)
*Never explode or catch fire*
100% Compatible with Disposable CR123A Batteries
Working Voltage:*3.2V* and Peak Voltage: *3.6V*
Charging cut-off voltage: *3.6V*
Discharge cut-off voltage: *2.2V*
Please never overdischarge battery below 2.2V/cell
Charge the this battery with LiFePO4 RCR123A smart charger.

Capacity: 750 mAh
Maximum discharging rate:< 550 mA
Maximum charge current: <550 mA
Cell's dimension: 17mm Dia. x 34.5mm H.
Weight: 0.6 oz (18 grams).


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## Matt Sutton (Jul 25, 2007)

I have no reason to doubt that me cells are LiFEPO4 chemistry. They were sold as such and behave exactly as such. I know for a fact that they have no protection circuit as the other Tenergy RCR123's have.
They were a good deal at <$2/cell and I like them in spite of their short runtime. If they fit in the new Surefire tubes I'm sure they will become much more popular.


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## LEDAdd1ct (Sep 5, 2007)

Has anyone tried either of these cells in an Inova X5? I am looking to see if anyone has prior to purchasing the red (single-cell) Inova X5. 

Also, is there a consensus of which chemistry is the "better" one right now? It seems that AW's are reported to be higher capacity (from reports in this very thread!) 

LEDAdd1ct


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## edc3 (Sep 6, 2007)

gunga said:


> Hmmm. yeah.
> 
> The description at Battery JUnction could be a bit ambiguous too.
> 
> ...




There's another thread about these batteries here which has some info from Mattk:

https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/172345


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## winston (Sep 6, 2007)

bspofford said:


> I copied the following from the All-Battery advertisement for this "New" product:
> 
> *New Chemical LiFePO4 Li-Ion battery *
> 
> ...



I thought LiFePo batteries could handle higher current draws than this.
-Winston


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## eng_driver (Oct 22, 2008)

winston said:


> I thought LiFePo batteries could handle higher current draws than this.
> -Winston



That is exactly what I thought, and the so called experts were not too concerned about it. I have found that a draw of about 750Ma from a Romisen RC-F4 Q5 on Tenergy LiFePO4 cells is killing them. The light performed for about 1/4 the life of my cheap Trustfire LiCoO2 cells.

I've killed two cells out of 6 already. They show a full charge, but are dead in a very short time. I'm not sure about the real life of LiFePO4 cells, but I think they are dieing much too quickly.


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## jzmtl (Oct 22, 2008)

eng_driver said:


> I've killed two cells out of 6 already. They show a full charge, but are dead in a very short time. I'm not sure about the real life of LiFePO4 cells, but I think they are dieing much too quickly.



Some of my LiFePO4 died exactly that way, although I think it's because they have problems to begin with. When I first got them I used them in two cell lights, one would always die first while the other still have quite a bit of charge left. Later I used them in novatac and the bad ones would cause it to step down only seconds after on max. Out of 4 I used only 1 survived.


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## cabbynate (Nov 2, 2008)

jzmtl said:


> Some of my LiFePO4 died exactly that way, although I think it's because they have problems to begin with. When I first got them I used them in two cell lights, one would always die first while the other still have quite a bit of charge left. Later I used them in novatac and the bad ones would cause it to step down only seconds after on max. Out of 4 I used only 1 survived.


 I have a brand new Tenergy LiFePO4 900mAh that steps down in my Novatac 120P on the high setting as well. It also charges to 4.1v instead of 3.6v as advertised. This in a Tenergy PH-123A-3.0A charger? I though the overcharge protection in the battery would stop that?


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## shadowjk (Nov 2, 2008)

LiFePO4 batteries normally have no protection circuitry. Not for overdischarge, not for overcharge.


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## germanium (Nov 3, 2008)

Ultralast Lithium-Ion CR123A's are also this type & were very very dissapointing to me. I got 20 minutes max out of them in my then Inova X03 flashlingt compared to 40 minutes with the regulated Juice CR123A's. Niether of these performed anywhere near my expectations as this light would last 1.5-2.0 hours on CR123a lithium throw aways.

The juice CR123a batteries would also get very hot due to what appeared to be linear regulation as opposed to switch-mode regulation.

I also have tried the early unregulated Juice batteries. The charger that came with them only charged to 3.8 volts & not 4.2 volts needed to get to full capacity. I modified the charger to get full capacity out of them but my Inova XO3 bit the dust very very quickly. Within 1 second. I also toasted another XO3 with batteries charged to 3.8 volts fresh off the chargerafter I converted the charger back to stock charging voltage. At 3.8 volts they are 1/2 charged.

With the newer regulated juice battery charger the charge voltage is 4.9 volts. This is to compensate for the presence of the regulator. The actual charge reaching the battery was 4.2 volts. When loaded by the device the voltage went down to 3.2-3.4 volts. It was this voltage drop accross the regulater that causes the regulated Juice batteries to heat up. Lesson here is to only use the charger that came with the batteries as the charging characteristics of each type cell is different depending on the type regulation, protection & chemistry of the battery. 

New ultralasts are regulated LiCo type old one were LiFePO4 type.


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## hank (Nov 3, 2008)

Make _sure_ you read that other thread. The conclusion at least back then was:

Some of these do _not_ come labeled right if at all. It's do-it-yourself safety time.

You have to make sure someone else in your household can't later make a mistake.

https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/172345


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## BigusLightus (Nov 3, 2008)

I use my P1CE all day long and it has never looked brighter. The six AW LiFePO's I just received all run stronger and longer than any of the six Tenergy LiFePO's I was happy with. The difference is amazing and I am totally impressed with these new AW 123's.


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## mdocod (Nov 4, 2008)

The best way to increase the runtime and performance of your 1xCR123 powered lights on rechargeable cells, is to buy 1xCR123 powered light that have support for 3.7V cells. There are plenty out there. Just sell the lights that don't work right on 3.7V cells to someone who prefers primary cells.

LiFePO4 cells have bad energy density, voltage regulated 3.0V LiCo cells are nearly as bad but have more components that can fail, and require owning a charger that could be dangerous if used with regular 3.7V cells. 

Eric


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## eng_driver (Jun 28, 2009)

The whole point of my interest in using LiFePO4 was to use a 2x123 flashlight without the 3.7V cells like LiCoO2 and the "vent with flame" danger. It was also my understanding that LiFePO4 had great energy density.

Maybe a regulated flashlight made especially for 3.0V LiFePO4 would make sense, if it existed.


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## matrixshaman (Jun 28, 2009)

I wouldn't trust anything All-battery says. I ordered some Eneloop clones (low self discharge batteries) a while back and they sent a regular NiMh. This was posted on CPFM as a 'good deal' and a lot of other members had the same 'bait and switch' experience. I personally don't care for Tenergy cells much because if I want really good cells I buy AW's and if I want cheap cells I get them from DX which will always beat the price of Tenergy cells.


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## eng_driver (Jun 28, 2009)

I know this is now going off topic, but I read these things about AW here all the time.

Why do I feel like I would be buying AW out of the trunk a car? If AW is so wonderful, why can't I buy it at wallymart, God forbid.


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## Black Rose (Jun 28, 2009)

eng_driver said:


> I know this is now going off topic, but I read these things about AW here all the time.
> 
> Why do I feel like I would be buying AW out of the trunk a car? If AW is so wonderful, why can't I buy it at wallymart, God forbid.


It doesn't apply just to AW. Why don't we see Panasonic, LG, or Sanyo Li-Ion cells at wally world or other mass market retailers?

It's simply due to the dangers involved. 
The litigation opportunites due to clueless consumer actions would be endless.


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## DM51 (Jun 29, 2009)

eng_driver said:


> I know this is now going off topic, but I read these things about AW here all the time.
> 
> Why do I feel like I would be buying AW out of the trunk a car? If AW is so wonderful, why can't I buy it at wallymart, God forbid.


Your post is rather rude. AW is a highly respected member here. His batteries are regarded as being of extremely high quality, and his customer service is excellent. There are many small-scale but high-quality manufacturers selling mainly through this forum. You won't find McGizmo products at Wallyworld either. 

Perhaps when you have been here longer than 1 month you will start to understand that quantity does not usually go hand in hand with quality.


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