# CREE's neutrals have an ugly tint. Why all the fanfare for XPG or XML neutral lights?



## ledmitter_nli (Feb 1, 2013)

For example. Neutral XML vs Nichia 219












The 219 blows it away.


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## moshow9 (Feb 1, 2013)

*Re: CREE's neutrals have an ugly hue. Why all the fanfare for XPG or XML neutral ligh*

It comes down to what the user is looking for, color rendition vs output, floody light vs thrower.


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## netprince (Feb 1, 2013)

*Re: CREE's neutrals have an ugly hue. Why all the fanfare for XPG or XML*

They are nice if you get a good color bin. But tighter bins also cost more for the manufacturer.


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## ledmitter_nli (Feb 1, 2013)

*Re: CREE's neutrals have an ugly hue. Why all the fanfare for XPG or XML*



netprince said:


> They are nice if you get a good color bin. But tighter bins also cost more for the manufacturer.



Can anyone show an XPG or XML beamshot color bin that bests the Nichia 219?


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## Vortus (Feb 1, 2013)

*Re: CREE's neutrals have an ugly hue. Why all the fanfare for XPG or XML*

Neutrals are a balance between tint and power. And most hicri or warmer are to pink or yellow for me.


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## duro (Feb 1, 2013)

*Re: CREE's neutrals have an ugly hue. Why all the fanfare for XPG or XML*

The early XML t5 neutrals seem to have that horrible greenish tint. The new xpgs, and olders, are totally better than what is illustrated above.


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## ledmitter_nli (Feb 1, 2013)

*Re: CREE's neutrals have an ugly hue. Why all the fanfare for XPG or XML*

Nichia (top) XML (bottom)


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## jabe1 (Feb 1, 2013)

*Re: CREE's neutrals have an ugly hue. Why all the fanfare for XPG or XML*

Yes the Nichia is nice, but at the cost of reduced output. I have a few myself; also some very nice Crees. I don't care for the "cool" whites.

Tint preference is very subjective. To each his own.


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## ledmitter_nli (Feb 1, 2013)

*Re: CREE's neutrals have an ugly hue. Why all the fanfare for XPG or XML*



duro said:


> The early XML t5 neutrals seem to have that horrible greenish tint. The new xpgs, and olders, are totally better than what is illustrated above.



Half the pink burns away after a good 6 hours of use. The Nichia gets better.


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## ledmitter_nli (Feb 1, 2013)

*Re: CREE's neutrals have an ugly hue. Why all the fanfare for XPG or XML*



jabe1 said:


> Yes the Nichia is nice, but at the cost of reduced output. I have a few myself; also some very nice Crees. I don't care for the "cool" whites.
> 
> Tint preference is very subjective. To each his own.



You can more than make up for the output loss by getting a light in a triple or quad configuration.


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## skeeterbait (Feb 1, 2013)

*Re: CREE's neutrals have an ugly hue. Why all the fanfare for XPG or XML*

I for one prefer the Cree XML cool whites. To me it looks "cleaner" and more brilliant.


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## ledmitter_nli (Feb 1, 2013)

*Re: CREE's neutrals have an ugly hue. Why all the fanfare for XPG or XML*

"High Cri" XPG (bottom) vs Nichia 119 (top)


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## KarstGhost (Feb 1, 2013)

*Re: CREE's neutrals have an ugly hue. Why all the fanfare for XPG or XML*

I'll give a *highly subjective *rundown on each of my neutral cree lights:

Zebralight H51w (neutral XPG): Nice on high, pretty bad ugly hue as described on the low levels which I believe is from the current control shifting the tint (?). I'm definitely not against current control though.

Nitecore TM15 (neutral XML): Very nice on all levels except the very lowest, due to the same reason of current control perhaps? 

Fenix TK20---can't recall the emitter used in this light, but I've always loved the tint, lots of yellow. 

Quark Mini CR123---also unsure of emitter used, believe it was a neutral XP-E, I like it, more rosy/pink than any other neutral I've seen

So obviously there's lots of variations

The Nichia 219 is way more of a pure white, without any character to my eyes. I've been happy with all the tints I've been using lately, from the 219's to Warm Hi-CRI XMLs (my current favorite, changed my mind about warms) and the varying neutrals.


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## ShineOnYouCrazyDiamond (Feb 1, 2013)

*Re: CREE's neutrals have an ugly hue. Why all the fanfare for XPG or XML*

As already said tint perceptions are totally individual. I think much of it has to they way peoples eyes see color. My eyes are a little deficient in the red range so the neutral tints make up for that an make things look right for me. Cools appear grossly blue to me.

Another thing I've found is that you can compare any two lights together and one will looks worse than the other. If you put a cool next to an outdoor neutral (5000 - 5500K range) the neutral will appear very warm. If you put a neutral (4000-4500K) next to a HiCRI XPG in the 3000K range the neutral will appear to be very cool.

Everything is perception and variety lets everyone be happy. Many cool lovers will knock neutral tints until they try them and really give them a shot.

Also - when you a single tint for a while it appears to look just 'right'. If you then switch to a cooler or warmer tint it will appear off until your eyes adjust.


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## LG&M (Feb 1, 2013)

*Re: CREE's neutrals have an ugly hue. Why all the fanfare for XPG or XML*

better color, yes. blows it away, no. good pic,s thanks.


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## ledmitter_nli (Feb 1, 2013)

*Re: CREE's neutrals have an ugly hue. Why all the fanfare for XPG or XML*



ShineOnYouCrazyDiamond said:


> As already said tint perceptions are totally individual. I think much of it has to they way peoples eyes see color. My eyes are a little deficient in the red range so the neutral tints make up for that an make things look right for me. Cools appear grossly blue to me.
> 
> Another thing I've found is that you can compare any two lights together and one will looks worse than the other. If you put a cool next to an outdoor neutral (5000 - 5500K range) the neutral will appear very warm. If you put a neutral (4000-4500K) next to a HiCRI XPG in the 3000K range the neutral will appear to be very cool.
> 
> ...



The world must look odd to you in sunlight  If you pull red away things get a bit more cyan.

BTW: How do you know your eyes are deficient in the red range? What control are you using to tell? Recollection from memory before an accident? or where you born with it?


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## 2xTrinity (Feb 1, 2013)

*Re: CREE's neutrals have an ugly hue. Why all the fanfare for XPG or XML*



ledmitter_nli said:


> The world must look odd to you in sunlight  If you pull red away things get a bit more cyan.
> 
> BTW: How do you know your eyes are deficient in the red range? What control are you using to tell? Recollection from memory before an accident? or where you born with it?



In one of my classes in college they actaully proved that every single one of the 33 people in attendance was colorblind because they couldn't correctly read the following number when it was shown on the projector:


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## ShineOnYouCrazyDiamond (Feb 1, 2013)

*Re: CREE's neutrals have an ugly hue. Why all the fanfare for XPG or XML*

No things look just fine during the day - at least relative to the way I see things. Deficiency or not I think I see reds just fine in daylight and in warmer artificial lighting.

It's those test numbers above, search the web and there are dozens of them out there, that show I am red/green deficient. It's never been a big deal for me really except for the fact I found out that a shirt I had for a few years that I thought was grey was actually hunter green. 

By the way I see 29 above.


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## ledmitter_nli (Feb 1, 2013)

*Re: CREE's neutrals have an ugly hue. Why all the fanfare for XPG or XML*



ShineOnYouCrazyDiamond said:


> No things look just fine during the day - at least relative to the way I see things. Deficiency or not I think I see reds just fine in daylight and in warmer artificial lighting.
> 
> It's those test numbers above, search the web and there are dozens of them out there, that show I am red/green deficient. It's never been a big deal for me really except for the fact I found out that a shirt I had for a few years that I thought was grey was actually hunter green.
> 
> By the way I see 29 above.



I never understood the validity of those tests. One persons red could be another persons cyan. And so on. I can even desaturate the pattern above and see the 29 in shades of grey.


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## AnAppleSnail (Feb 1, 2013)

*Re: CREE's neutrals have an ugly hue. Why all the fanfare for XPG or XML*



ledmitter_nli said:


> I never understood the validity of those tests. One persons red could be another persons cyan. And so on. I can desaturate the pattern above and see the 29 in shades of grey.



That depends on the fact that your computer doesn't process color like the eye. We know cyan from red by common function and eye physiology both. And finally, LED tint and color rendering are usually a tradeoff for performance and always exaggerated by camera. Your eye has great auto white balance when you don't mix CCT.


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## Silgt (Feb 1, 2013)

*Re: CREE's neutrals have an ugly hue. Why all the fanfare for XPG or XML*



ledmitter_nli said:


> I can desaturate the pattern above and see the 29 in shades of grey.



#29 in shades of green


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## 2xTrinity (Feb 1, 2013)

*Re: CREE's neutrals have an ugly hue. Why all the fanfare for XPG or XML*

I was actually being a bit facetious about the colorblindness test. The projectors in our classroom had a terrible color gamut, therefore those kinds of tests were almost completely unintelligible. If you looked at the test printed on paper or used on a high quality monitor, likely 95%+ of the class would have been "not colorblind"


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## ledmitter_nli (Feb 1, 2013)

*Re: CREE's neutrals have an ugly hue. Why all the fanfare for XPG or XML*



2xTrinity said:


> I was actually being a bit facetious about the colorblindness test. The projectors in our classroom had a terrible color gamut, therefore those kinds of tests were almost completely unintelligible. If you looked at the test printed on paper or used on a high quality monitor, likely 95%+ of the class would have been "not colorblind"



i get it


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## HighlanderNorth (Feb 1, 2013)

*Re: CREE's neutrals have an ugly hue. Why all the fanfare for XPG or XML*



ShineOnYouCrazyDiamond said:


> As already said tint perceptions are totally individual. I think much of it has to they way peoples eyes see color. My eyes are a little deficient in the red range so the neutral tints make up for that an make things look right for me. Cools appear grossly blue to me.
> 
> Another thing I've found is that you can compare any two lights together and one will looks worse than the other. If you put a cool next to an outdoor neutral (5000 - 5500K range) the neutral will appear very warm. If you put a neutral (4000-4500K) next to a HiCRI XPG in the 3000K range the neutral will appear to be very cool.
> 
> ...





WHat you said here is 100% accurate. I can look at one light, and and its tint might look very neutral and white, but when I compare it to another light, it'll look slightly greenish in comparison, for instance. It seems that tints are relative to other tints.


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## HighlanderNorth (Feb 1, 2013)

*Re: CREE's neutrals have an ugly hue. Why all the fanfare for XPG or XML*



2xTrinity said:


> In one of my classes in college they actaully proved that every single one of the 33 people in attendance was colorblind because they couldn't correctly read the following number when it was shown on the projector:





I see the big dipper there^. Is that right?


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## ledmitter_nli (Feb 1, 2013)

*Re: CREE's neutrals have an ugly hue. Why all the fanfare for XPG or XML*



HighlanderNorth said:


> WHat you said here is 100% accurate. I can look at one light, and and its tint might look very neutral and white, but when I compare it to another light, it'll look slightly greenish in comparison, for instance. It seems that tints are relative to other tints.



I don't know. The Nichia examples are just whiter without a spike in green or yellow, or orange (for warms), or blue (for cool) that taints CREE LED performance in general.

The Nichia 219's slightly rose tint burns off leaving just a bit of rose at the fringes. This rose tint helps saturate colors making them richer. From blues to greens to yellows, browns and red. They all look good.


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## Norm (Feb 1, 2013)

*Re: CREE's neutrals have an ugly hue. Why all the fanfare for XPG or XML*

I see #29 in shades of salmon and burgundy.

Norm


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## BenChiew (Feb 2, 2013)

*CREE's neutrals have an ugly hue. Why all the fanfare for XPG or XML neutral lights?*

I see many busy dots with a red outline of 29.


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## tam17 (Feb 2, 2013)

*Re: CREE's neutrals have an ugly hue. Why all the fanfare for XPG or XML neutral ligh*

This problem has a very simple solution: get custom lights with N219 and completely avoid Cree neutrals. I'm completely satisfied with my neutral XM-L.

Cheers


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## Moonwayman (Feb 2, 2013)

*Re: CREE's neutrals have an ugly hue. Why all the fanfare for XPG or XML*

Thanks for posting this hcri xpg vs 119 shots. I own an hcri xpg but have not seen the 119 in person. Are the pictures below of 119 representative of what you perceive? The xpg shot does capture the spirit of what I seed in real life, though it seems richer and a bit warmer to my eyes in real life. Is the 219 warmer than the 119?



ledmitter_nli said:


> "High Cri" XPG (bottom) vs Nichia 119 (top)


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## ledmitter_nli (Feb 2, 2013)

*Re: CREE's neutrals have an ugly hue. Why all the fanfare for XPG or XML*



Moonwayman said:


> Thanks for posting this hcri xpg vs 119 shots. I own an hcri xpg but have not seen the 119 in person. Are the pictures below of 119 representative of what you perceive? The xpg shot does capture the spirit of what I seed in real life, though it seems richer and a bit warmer to my eyes in real life. Is the 219 warmer than the 119?



The 219 gives a little more color saturation and has a perceptible rose tint. Check this out:
http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb...a-219)-Now-my-XML-beams-feel-garish-and-fugly

When you have better overall color rendering, whatever you are pointing the light at has better depth separation. It's easier to perceive slight shades of color (differences) things APPEAR more natural.


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## ledmitter_nli (Feb 2, 2013)

*Re: CREE's neutrals have an ugly hue. Why all the fanfare for XPG or XML neutral ligh*



tam17 said:


> This problem has a very simple solution: get custom lights with N219 and completely avoid Cree neutrals. I'm completely satisfied with my neutral XM-L.
> 
> Cheers



Yeah, CREE LED's are adequate, I guess. There are better options if you require more realistic color space illumination however. Pics speak for themselves  I'm sure the Nichia's come to favor more readily with photographers for this very reason.


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## yellow (Feb 2, 2013)

only ...
by "Cree CM-L neutral white (5000K)" You are just near the actual tint, but not really know it,
maybe You got a "3S" or something


http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb...nd-Vf-Charts-and-Links-for-Popular-White-LEDs
(PS: I remember that once we considered "WD" tint (6.000 K) as being neutral ...)


but the nichia seems to be some lighting device when someone KNOWS what to want...
-->considerably reduced output for "better" (better suiting?) light.
there surely are worse tradeoffs


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## Moonwayman (Feb 2, 2013)

*Re: CREE's neutrals have an ugly hue. Why all the fanfare for XPG or XML*

Thanks the Tabasco pictures say it all. Giant difference between the two. Yeah the xml can toss out some serious lumens, but these hcri's are very pleasant to the eye. The 219 does look very nice, now I have to find one.



ledmitter_nli said:


> The 219 gives a little more color saturation and has a perceptible rose tint. Check this out:
> http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?343502-Fell-over-into-the-HI-CRI-side-%28Nichia-219%29-Now-my-XML-beams-feel-garish-and-fugly
> 
> When you have better overall color rendering, whatever you are pointing the light at has better depth separation. It's easier to perceive slight shades of color (differences) things APPEAR more natural.


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## markr6 (Feb 2, 2013)

*Re: CREE's neutrals have an ugly hue. Why all the fanfare for XPG or XML neutral ligh*



ledmitter_nli said:


>



I believe I'm correct in saying the PD32UE has the XM-L 5000K. But mine looks NOTHING like this. I mean, not even close. That looks much greener, at least on my monitor.


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## ledmitter_nli (Feb 2, 2013)

*Re: CREE's neutrals have an ugly hue. Why all the fanfare for XPG or XML neutral ligh*



yellow said:


> only ...
> by "Cree CM-L neutral white (5000K)" You are just near the actual tint, but not really know it,
> maybe You got a "3S" or something
> 
> ...



I have close to 1,000+ lumens with my Kerberos quad Nichia 219 drop in. "Considerably reduced output" isn't even a consideration here. 






original: http://oi46.tinypic.com/xkn2if.jpg






Original: http://oi49.tinypic.com/f59bon.jpg





















BOOM


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## think2x (Feb 2, 2013)

*Re: CREE's neutrals have an ugly hue. Why all the fanfare for XPG or XML neutral ligh*

I wouldn't call them ugly, it's all the luck of the draw with cree it seems. Nichia 219 is by far my favorite emitter, even with the loss in output over cree BUT I have a Quark XP-G Neutral from the last run that looks to be around 4200k compared to the 219. I traded for this light specifically to do a 219 swap to it but when it arrived I could not bring myself to do it because the tint was so great. I've also done a NovaTac swap to XM-L that the customer bought and sent the emitter along with the light and it was also very,very close in tint to the Quark......Beautiful.


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## ledmitter_nli (Feb 2, 2013)

*Re: CREE's neutrals have an ugly hue. Why all the fanfare for XPG or XML neutral ligh*



think2x said:


> I wouldn't call them ugly, it's all the luck of the draw with cree it seems. Nichia 219 is by far my favorite emitter, even with the loss in output over cree BUT I have a Quark XP-G Neutral from the last run that looks to be around 4200k compared to the 219. I traded for this light specifically to do a 219 swap to it but when it arrived I could not bring myself to do it because the tint was so great. I've also done a NovaTac swap to XM-L that the customer bought and sent the emitter along with the light and it was also very,very close in tint to the Quark......Beautiful.



Did you shine the Nichia light next to the Quark for a real world comparison then choose?

You see, a 4200k light from one emitter can STILL cast an underlying tint that makes colors appear different from another 4200k emitter.

Reading this part about (C)olor (R)endering (I)ndex Criticisms in Wiki will give insight as to why:

_"Ohno (2006) and others have criticized CRI for not always correlating well with subjective color rendering quality in practice,
particularly for light sources with *spiky emission spectra* such as fluorescent lamps or white LEDs."_

One Hi-CRI light's spectrum can be vastly different from another even though the lights color temperature looks similar:






This explains why "Hi-CRI" doesn't always correlate better color rendering.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Color_rendering_index#Criticism_and_resolution

I'm sure the Nichia 219 has it's own faulty spikes in its output spectrum, but not to the detriment seen in the majority of CREE LED's yellow,
green, orange and blue tainted hues.

Gag.


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## ledmitter_nli (Feb 2, 2013)

*Re: CREE's neutrals have an ugly hue. Why all the fanfare for XPG or XML*



Moonwayman said:


> Thanks the Tabasco pictures say it all. Giant difference between the two. Yeah the xml can toss out some serious lumens, but these hcri's are very pleasant to the eye. The 219 does look very nice, now I have to find one.



I think more accurate colors trumps lumens. The information gleaned from the correctly perceived colors of your surroundings hits all the right nerve centers in your visual cortex  No seriously,
imagine sprinting through thick forest foliage with a CREE XML warm (err yellow?) blazing in front of you. Browns and greens wash each other out, you're unsure if those are leaves and vines
you need to dodge, or actually a branch!











The Nichia's are like trigonometry nerds. The CREE LED's are like brainless steroid bodybuilders. Yeah they have output, but missing acumen.


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## skyfire (Feb 3, 2013)

*Re: CREE's neutrals have an ugly hue. Why all the fanfare for XPG or XML*

i have lights with nichia 219 and high cri xpg, and my personal preference is still with the warmer xpg high cri, although i have zero complaints with the nichia 219.
i even prefer the high cri SSC P4 over the nichia 219 because its a little warmer, but incan still provides the highest quality light.


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## Yoda4561 (Feb 3, 2013)

*Re: CREE's neutrals have an ugly hue. Why all the fanfare for XPG or XML*

I see a 29 clearly but there's something behind it in cyan I can't make out by eye. Mind that the comparison with cree's would be far more fair if you used similar CCT's, and I don't necessarily mean what cree bins them at. I've noticed that almost all the Malkoff "3500k" XML shots look to be around 500k cooler (like 4000+) than the "3700k" XPG's 



2xTrinity said:


> In one of my classes in college they actaully proved that every single one of the 33 people in attendance was colorblind because they couldn't correctly read the following number when it was shown on the projector:


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## yliu (Feb 3, 2013)

This looks very similar to me cool white JetBeam PA40.



ledmitter_nli said:


>


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## yellow (Feb 3, 2013)

when typing in "Nichia 219" I ended in an offer / Datasheet, that said: 
_294 lm @ 1.500 mAh ..._
thats condiserably reduced output to me ...
:thinking:


PS: any "ready made" flashlight is nothing.
There simply is no sense in "comparing", as one does not know anything concerning the emitter.
Only when being able to individually choose the led, than it makes sense (like when ordering an insert form nailbender)

f.e. I really like my Quark AA "warm" model but hated all my other Quarks (for being ugly green) and gave them away.
Without being able to order _the individual tint _one appreciates --> no sense at all.
Thats why I doubt I am going to order any "have luck or not" ready made light in the future ...


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## jorn (Feb 3, 2013)

Some neutral xp-g has ugly tint, some neutral xm-l have ugly tint, some neutral nichia 219 has ugly tint. Thats the tint lottery. Bought 5 nichia 219 form the same bin, and they all looked slightly different. I have "good" xp leds with "better/purer" tint than a "bad" 219. It's a lottery thing.


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## ShineOnYouCrazyDiamond (Feb 3, 2013)

jorn said:


> Some neutral xp-g has ugly tint, some neutral xm-l have ugly tint, some neutral nichia 219 has ugly tint. Thats the tint lottery. Bought 5 nichia 219 form the same bin, and they all looked slightly different. I have "good" xp leds with "better/purer" tint than a "bad" 219. It's a lottery thing.



You are forgetting the most important thing!

Most cool LED light have ugly tint. 4 Sevens is the king of crap tints. Most are ugly green or ugly blue. Most cheap cool tint LED lights by poor quality bins because they are dirt cheap in mass. All of these lights have terribly anrgy blue tints. Pretty much any ***crap***fire brand light will have a terrible tint.


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## ShineOnYouCrazyDiamond (Feb 3, 2013)

ShineOnYouCrazyDiamond said:


> You are forgetting the most important thing!
> 
> Most cool LED light have ugly tint. 4 Sevens is the king of crap tints. Most are ugly green or ugly blue. Most cheap cool tint LED lights by poor quality bins because they are dirt cheap in mass. All of these lights have terribly anrgy blue tints. Pretty much any ***crap***fire brand light will have a terrible tint.



PS - In my opinion the neutral tint "lottery" is much more tightly controlled than that of the cool tint lottery. If you look at the bins available in neutral they are much more tightly batched along the ANSI white curve that that of the cooler tints.


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## ledmitter_nli (Feb 3, 2013)

jorn said:


> Some neutral xp-g has ugly tint, some neutral xm-l have ugly tint, some neutral nichia 219 has ugly tint. Thats the tint lottery. Bought 5 nichia 219 form the same bin, and they all looked slightly different. I have "good" xp leds with "better/purer" tint than a "bad" 219. It's a lottery thing.



Tint lottery is BS. You get the BIN that was spec'd for or not.

(Hint: unless you are dealing with unscupulous (mostly chinese) light manufacters)


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## ShineOnYouCrazyDiamond (Feb 3, 2013)

ledmitter_nli said:


> Tint lottery is BS. You get the BIN that was spec'd for or not.
> 
> (Hint: unless you are dealing with unscupulous (mostly chinese) light manufacters)



This is mostly true if you are buying individual LEDs as you are paying for a specific tint. But even that binned tint is a range of tints that fall into a space on the ANSI color chart grid. Some bins are more tightly controlled than others. What I mean is that, for example, the 5A tint is sub binned into 5a1, 5a2, 5a3 and 5a4. If you buy a 5a tint you can end up with anything. If you buy a 5a1 tint your LEDs tint range will be more tightly controlled. I have probably gone through close to 100-150 led mods ANSI can assure there are tint differences within even the tightest bins. I have gone through n219 spools of 10 LEDs in a row and some were cooler and warmer than others. 

When you buy a production light that doesn't specify a tint bin there most deck itself is a tint lottery. Companies by big batches of LEDs and for them being less particular in the tint means a cheaper price. Win for them, tint lottery for you.


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## ledmitter_nli (Feb 3, 2013)

yellow said:


> when typing in "Nichia 219" I ended in an offer / Datasheet, that said:
> _294 lm @ 1.500 mAh ..._
> thats condiserably reduced output to me ...
> :thinking:
> ...



"Only when being able to individually choose the led, than it makes sense *(like when ordering an insert form nailbender)*"

like when ordering an insert from Kerberos...


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## jorn (Feb 3, 2013)

I agree that the neutrals seems to be tighter binned. I rarly gets dissapointed with the tint from most neutral tinted leds. Most of my "keepers" have ended up as neutral tinted. 

I got 5 neutral 219 from cutter, all still sticking togeter from the reel. All had small differences in tint. Not as mutch variation as the cree's i have seen so far. But my best tinted "lucky" cree's xp still looks better than my worst "unlucky" nichia 219 . So no, tint lottery is not BS. Buy 10 lights (any brand), and i guarantee you will be able to pick out one that you think looks a little bit better than the 9 other.


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## Moonwayman (Feb 3, 2013)

*Re: CREE's neutrals have an ugly hue. Why all the fanfare for XPG or XML*

The 219 really brings out the browns while other LEDs often wash them out. Do you have any direct comparisons between the 219 and hcri xpg?



ledmitter_nli said:


> I think more accurate colors trumps lumens. The information gleaned from the correctly perceived colors of your surroundings hits all the right nerve centers in your visual cortex  No seriously,
> imagine sprinting through thick forest foliage with a CREE XML warm (err yellow?) blazing in front of you. Browns and greens wash each other out, you're unsure if those are leaves and vines
> you need to dodge, or actually a branch!
> 
> ...


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## ledmitter_nli (Feb 3, 2013)

*Re: CREE's neutrals have an ugly hue. Why all the fanfare for XPG or XML*



Moonwayman said:


> The 219 really brings out the browns while other LEDs often wash them out. Do you have any direct comparisons between the 219 and hcri xpg?



Just what's on the first page. Searching Google images will show you many examples.


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## Mikeg23 (Feb 3, 2013)

*Re: CREE's neutrals have an ugly hue. Why all the fanfare for XPG or XML*

Ilimination supply (csshih) posted pictures of the Malkoff M61, M61 HCRI, and M61 219. 

Based on all the pictures I've seen (including the ones in this thread) I like the warm XPG better than the 219. I don't own a 219 but have several warm and one nuetral XPG.


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## MichaelW (Feb 3, 2013)

*Re: CREE's neutrals have an ugly hue. Why all the fanfare for XPG or XML*

5000K is not neutral.
Without spectral power distribution plots, any discussion is pointless.


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## ShineOnYouCrazyDiamond (Feb 3, 2013)

*Re: CREE's neutrals have an ugly hue. Why all the fanfare for XPG or XML*

Personally I think that the overall color rendition of everything looks amazing with the N219. Whites appear as white as can be and all the colors are rendered wonderfully.

But, I still seem to prefer a neutral XP-G2 5A3/5C1 tint. It adds a little bit more warmth and when you use it outside everything appears to 'POP' a little bit more providing a touch more depth perception rendering that the N219 lacks.

Also, I've found that the N219 in a more floody application is pretty cool and sterile looking. When you put it in a lens with a tighter spot the neutral quality of the tint comes out.

Notice that I have avoided talking about the HiCRI 90+ XP-G leds. I think that they look wonderful, but they also are the closest replacement to an incan light as well. I set up a light with one of these for my wife and she loves it. My problem come when they are only available in Q2 - very inefficient in comparison to R4 XP-G2 LEDs. I have trouble giving up the lumens for the warmer tint. (I even have this same issue comparing a N219 with a neutral XP-G2).

In a V10R application comparing two exact lights. One with a XP-G2 R4 5A3 and one with N219 there is a distinct difference of at least 100 lumens on high. Also outside the house the depth perception into the trees is much better with the XP-G2.


----------



## itguy07 (Feb 3, 2013)

*Re: CREE's neutrals have an ugly hue. Why all the fanfare for XPG or XML*



ledmitter_nli said:


> I think more accurate colors trumps lumens. The information gleaned from the correctly perceived colors of your surroundings hits all the right nerve centers in your visual cortex  No seriously,
> imagine sprinting through thick forest foliage with a CREE XML warm (err yellow?) blazing in front of you. Browns and greens wash each other out, you're unsure if those are leaves and vines
> you need to dodge, or actually a branch!



I'll take lumens any day. I'd rather be able to see something with poor color accuracy than not see something or struggle to see something.

If you are sprinting through the woods and can't tell branches and vines vs leaves you deserve to get knocked out and eaten by the bear yor are trying to avoid!


----------



## ledmitter_nli (Feb 3, 2013)

*Re: CREE's neutrals have an ugly hue. Why all the fanfare for XPG or XML*



MichaelW said:


> 5000K is not neutral.



Who said that?



MichaelW said:


> Without spectral power distribution plots, any discussion is pointless.



Gee. You think?


----------



## ledmitter_nli (Feb 3, 2013)

*Re: CREE's neutrals have an ugly hue. Why all the fanfare for XPG or XML*



itguy07 said:


> I'll take lumens any day. I'd rather be able to see something with poor color accuracy than not see something or struggle to see something.
> 
> If you are sprinting through the woods and can't tell branches and vines vs leaves you deserve to get knocked out and eaten by the bear yor are trying to avoid!



Sure, I didn't mean to suggest lumens have no bearing in eye sensitivity usefulness. Of course it does. But "BETTER" lumens are more efficient at increasing our perception of a target elicited.


----------



## ledmitter_nli (Feb 3, 2013)

*Re: CREE's neutrals have an ugly hue. Why all the fanfare for XPG or XML*



ShineOnYouCrazyDiamond said:


> Personally I think that the overall color rendition of everything looks amazing with the N219. Whites appear as white as can be and all the colors are rendered wonderfully.
> 
> But, I still seem to prefer a neutral XP-G2 5A3/5C1 tint. It adds a little bit more warmth and when you use it outside everything appears to 'POP' a little bit more providing a touch more depth perception rendering that the N219 lacks.
> 
> ...



Re: your comment about the XPG2 adding "a little bit more warmth and when you use it outside everything appears to 'POP' a little bit more providing a touch more depth perception rendering that the N219 lacks."

Really? I mean, really? I believe it's the other way around. Seeing color rendered through "pure" neutral light (sunlight 5500 Kelvin) is a hardwired component of our brain. Opting for artificial lighting that's either too cool or too warm is only forcing our visual cortex to struggle harder, things really look _artificial_. If you consider high CRI flashlights, the closer we get to simulating natural sunlight, the better the subjects to our lights will appear. Skewing towards "warmer" or "cooler" is adverse to how evolution evolved us to see. These cool and warm tints don't serve a purpose for anything other than being an achievement stepping stone to something better. For now the Nichia 219 actually *is* better 

Reminder: Warm and cool wavelengths are not "NATURAL"


----------



## ledmitter_nli (Feb 4, 2013)

*Re: CREE's neutrals have an ugly hue. Why all the fanfare for XPG or XML*

The holy grail of LED flashlight BIN and tints, IMO











Can anybody figure out what it is?


----------



## Esko (Feb 4, 2013)

*Re: CREE's neutrals have an ugly hue. Why all the fanfare for XPG or XML neutral ligh*



ledmitter_nli said:


> I have close to 1,000+ lumens with my Kerberos quad Nichia 219 drop in. "Considerably reduced output" isn't even a consideration here.



A very nice light. However, a similar quad XP-G2 configuration would give you ~2000 lumens (and less heat), so, the considerably reduced output is still there.

Nice photograhps. What is the white balance setting in them?

Good color rendering helps in color perception. However, more power helps, too. Lower illumination means less saturation in colors (especially in mesopic vision).



ledmitter_nli said:


> Seeing color rendered through "pure" neutral light (sunlight 5500 Kelvin) is a hardwired component of our brain.
> 
> ...
> 
> Reminder: Warm and cool wavelengths are not "NATURAL"



The sunlight can vary from some 2000K to more than 10000K depending on conditions.


----------



## AnAppleSnail (Feb 4, 2013)

*Re: CREE's neutrals have an ugly hue. Why all the fanfare for XPG or XML*

It's well and good to be a tint, cri, and color perception snob. But show me such a flashlight with equally effective output, light distribution, runtime, and size. We'll each find our favorite compromise along the dimensions of beam profile, output, runtime, light quality, and size.

But there is no single best CCT or CRI. Study after study shows situations where various tasks are best served by various CCT. The effects of improved color perception are usually found to be marginal outside color matching. Show me a bear-fleeing person who can't tell leaves from roots by an adequate Cree tint bin (and CRI>85) and I'll show you someone who won't tell a bear from a barn by looking


----------



## ledmitter_nli (Feb 4, 2013)

*Re: CREE's neutrals have an ugly hue. Why all the fanfare for XPG or XML neutral ligh*



Esko said:


> A very nice light. However, a similar quad XP-G2 configuration would give you ~2000 lumens (and less heat), so, the considerably reduced output is still there.









Nichia 219 performs better than you (and I) thought.

This chart puts my 5.6A quad Kerberos at about 1,300LED lumens using 1.4A per LED



Esko said:


> Nice photographs. What is the white balance setting in them?



Whatvever setting is on the Sony RX100. The BEST slimline digital camera on the market.  Features a full 1" CMOS sensor. What it photographed, is what I see.



Esko said:


> Good color rendering helps in color perception. However, more power helps, too. Lower illumination means less saturation in colors (especially in mesopic vision).
> 
> 
> 
> The sunlight can vary from some 2000K to more than 10000K depending on conditions.



Ideally mid-day temperature is 5500K and a good benchmark to measure artificial "pure" lighting against.


----------



## MichaelW (Feb 4, 2013)

*Re: CREE's neutrals have an ugly hue. Why all the fanfare for XPG or XML*



ledmitter_nli said:


> Who said that?


Philips Lumileds, Cree.
Cameras can mislead, so you have to try it yourself.


----------



## jorn (Feb 4, 2013)

*Re: CREE's neutrals have an ugly hue. Why all the fanfare for XPG or XML neutral ligh*



ledmitter_nli said:


> Whatvever setting is on the Sony RX100. The BEST slimline digital camera on the market.  Features a full 1" CMOS sensor. What it photographed, is what I see.


lol. If it's the best camera, you should be able to turn off auto settings like iso, shutterspeed, wb. That way the camera wont change the settings from one pic to the next. If not, dont compare.

I can make any of the pictures "look best" if i adjust some on my tv/monitor. It's not like a printed picture. Monitors are just like the tint lottery. Some are good some are crappy, and a lot are crappy adjusted. How do i know that i see what you see, when we look at the same picture but on different monitors?


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## ledmitter_nli (Feb 4, 2013)

*Re: CREE's neutrals have an ugly hue. Why all the fanfare for XPG or XML neutral ligh*



jorn said:


> lol. If it's the best camera, you should be able to turn off auto settings like iso, shutterspeed, wb. That way the camera wont change the settings from one pic to the next. If not, dont compare.
> 
> I can make any of the pictures "look best" if i adjust some on my tv/monitor. It's not like a printed picture. Monitors are just like the tint lottery. Some are good some are crappy, and a lot are crappy adjusted. How do i know that i see what you see, when we look at the same picture but on different monitors?



What part of "_what it photographed is what I see_" did you not understand?

Conversely you can call every photo (or video) posted on candlepowerforums into question with your line of reasoning.


----------



## jorn (Feb 4, 2013)

*Re: CREE's neutrals have an ugly hue. Why all the fanfare for XPG or XML neutral ligh*



ledmitter_nli said:


> What part of "_what it photographed is what I see_" did you not understand?
> 
> Conversely you can call every photo (or video) posted on candlepowerforums into question with your line of reasoning.


I understand cameras. It is for a reason pepole post the camera settings with the pictures, or state that the camera was locked with manual settings when they got several pictures to compare.
I just dont belive your "_what it photographed is what I see_" claim to be 100% true when it comes out of a point and shoot auto mode. Put all the lights in one picture if you cant lock the camera. Auto mode might be like comparing different flashlights with different tinted sunglasses on.. 
Thats why you should not rely too mutch on point and shoot pics when comparing lights. You got incredibly good eyes and memory if you can go outside take a pic, walk in, and and say for sure: "Thats *exactly* what i saw 5 min ago." Put the monitor issue on top of it, and yeah. Pics are not a great tool for a true tint snob.. Even with a SLR and photoshop, it's really hard to the get the tints close to 100% on your own monitor.


----------



## Esko (Feb 4, 2013)

*Re: CREE's neutrals have an ugly hue. Why all the fanfare for XPG or XML neutral ligh*



ledmitter_nli said:


> Nichia 219 performs better than you (and I) thought.
> 
> This chart puts my 5.6A quad Kerberos at about 1,300LED lumens using 1.4A per LED



You forgot to mention the source of your table, which is here (thanks to foxtrot824). A similarly powered (5,1 watts per led) XP-G2 flashlight would emit ~2150 led lumens (1,6A, ~3,15V, 537 lumens/led).



ledmitter_nli said:


> Whatvever setting is on the Sony RX100. The BEST slimline digital camera on the market.  Features a full 1" CMOS sensor. What it photographed, is what I see.



It is a nice camera, but it looks like it's automatic white balance is poor. I took some test photos with my 7 years old Canon 350d in December. With automatic white balance, the results were quite similar with XP-G 5000K, Luxeon Rebel high cri 5000K, XM-L 4500K and Nichia 219 4500K high cri. There were some minor differences in color rendering, but white was white in every photograph and colors looked pretty much right, too. There was a barely visible green hue in photographs taken with XM-L cool white and XP-G S3 cool white (which is famous for it's green tint) and the photo of Luxeon Rebel high cri 4200K looked a bit yellow. The only photographs with a clearly biased white balance were XP-G 3000K high cri (yellow) and unknown 5mm cool white (angry blue). I must add that with corrected white balance, the high cri XP-G rendered colors very well, too.

Of course, with fixed white balance the photographs would have clear tints. What kind of tints depends heavily on the value that is chosen.



ledmitter_nli said:


> Ideally mid-day temperature is 5500K and a good benchmark to measure artificial "pure" lighting against.



Nichia is 4500K, and many cool whites are 6500K.

Anyway, the illuminance of the mid-day sunlight is tens of thousands of lux. The illuminance of a flashlight is usually very different.


----------



## ledmitter_nli (Feb 4, 2013)

*Re: CREE's neutrals have an ugly hue. Why all the fanfare for XPG or XML neutral ligh*



Esko said:


> You forgot to mention the source of your table, which is here (thanks to foxtrot824). A similarly powered (5,1 watts per led) XP-G2 flashlight would emit ~2150 led lumens (1,6A, ~3,15V, 537 lumens/led).
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I should be clear, the ONLY photos posted in this thread using the Sony RX100 are the six in this post:
http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb...utral-lights&p=4130517&viewfull=1#post4130517

Everything else from the strawberry's to the bush and field shots are from various places on CPF and BudgetLightForum. God only knows what awful cameras they where using for those.


----------



## ledmitter_nli (Feb 4, 2013)

*Re: CREE's neutrals have an ugly hue. Why all the fanfare for XPG or XML*



ledmitter_nli said:


> The holy grail of LED flashlight BIN and tints, IMO
> 
> 
> 
> ...



For anyone wondering the light source is the "SUN"


----------



## ledmitter_nli (Feb 4, 2013)

*Re: CREE's neutrals have an ugly hue. Why all the fanfare for XPG or XML neutral ligh*



Esko said:


> You forgot to mention the source of your table, which is here (thanks to foxtrot824). A similarly powered (5,1 watts per led) XP-G2 flashlight would emit ~2150 led lumens (1,6A, ~3,15V, 537 lumens/led).



Troof! thanks for that. Was too lazy to find the location of that chart from awhile ago.

There's also no argument the XP-G2 outperforms the Nichia 219 in luminance. The 219 still outperforms the XP-G series in CRI. It's still a milestone LED in its own right. And 4 of them loaded into the head of a Surefire C2 fueled by an unprotected 3400mAh Panasonic makes for a "pocket torch" like no other.


----------



## Esko (Feb 4, 2013)

*Re: CREE's neutrals have an ugly hue. Why all the fanfare for XPG or XML neutral ligh*



ledmitter_nli said:


> I should be clear, the ONLY photos posted in this thread using the Sony RX100 are the six in this post:
> http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb...utral-lights&p=4130517&viewfull=1#post4130517
> 
> Everything else from the strawberry's to the bush and field shots are from various places on CPF and BudgetLightForum. God only knows what awful cameras they where using for those.



Yes, you should indeed be more clear and tell people when you are posting photographs that are not your own. Or use links. Give the credit to those who deserve it.

Just out of curiosity, I changed the white balance in my test photographs to 5500K. Nothing looks very nice any more. The best of the ugly group seems to be Luxeon Rebel 5000K high cri with XM-L 4500K following as a close second. Everything else looks pretty horrible (Nichia 219 high cri too). What surprised me though was that when I changed it to 4500K, XM-L 4500K looked actually good. Rebel 5000K was pretty good, too. Everything else had ugly hues. While I guess Nichia was the third in both cases (with a clear difference to the first two), I think this is a nice little reminder that camera settings can make a difference.


----------



## ledmitter_nli (Feb 4, 2013)

*Re: CREE's neutrals have an ugly hue. Why all the fanfare for XPG or XML neutral ligh*



Esko said:


> Yes, you should indeed be more clear and tell people when you are posting photographs that are not your own. Or use links. Give the credit to those who deserve it.
> 
> Just out of curiosity, I changed the white balance in my test photographs to 5500K. Nothing looks very nice any more. The best of the ugly group seems to be Luxeon Rebel 5000K high cri with XM-L 4500K following as a close second. Everything else looks pretty horrible (Nichia 219 high cri too). What surprised me though was that when I changed it to 4500K, XM-L 4500K looked actually good. Rebel 5000K was pretty good, too. Everything else had ugly hues. While I guess Nichia was the third in both cases (with a clear difference to the first two), I think this is a nice little reminder that camera settings can make a difference.



Agreed. This is where personal testimony from individual contributors can chime in and add to a growing body of evidence that points in a particular direction. I've made my contribution.


----------



## ShineOnYouCrazyDiamond (Feb 4, 2013)

*Re: CREE's neutrals have an ugly hue. Why all the fanfare for XPG or XML neutral ligh*

Ya know what I think the problem with the tint lottery is? I goes back to what I learned in college in my EE classes. Resistors are binned with 1%, 5% and 10% tolerances within the stated spec Ohm rating. If you want a resistor with 1% tolerance you are going to pay for it. The way they do it is that out of a batch all the resistors within 1% get moved to that bin, everything 1% to 5% go to the 5% bin and everything 6-10% goes to the 10% bin. So you know going in that if you cheap out and buy the 10% bin you will never get anything better than 5%.

I think you can apply the same logic to LEDs. LEDs are tint binned when they come off the line. Ideal tints that run along the ANSI ideal white curve are harder to come by and cost a significant premium when purchased in bulk. LEDs that are outside this curve are in the majority and get binned in wider tint variation ranges further off the ANSI curve. These are sold in bulk to mass manufacturers at a heavy discount and put in production flashlights.

Long and short of the argument is you get what you pay for.

Take a look at the ANSI White curve w/ Cree subdivisions here: https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/156772 and you will clearly see the S, T, R and U bins on the outer edges of the curves. These are the cheap LEDs that manufacturers buy for less. Check out the pricing on the various XPG tints here http://www.cutter.com.au/products.php?cat=Cree+XPG and you can see that there is a premium for the more desirable tints.

At the end of the day I consider myself an extreme neutral tin snob but I never rub anyone else's face in it or tell them what tint they should like. For me my tint is the Cree 5C1/5B4. I will take this tint any day all day long and love it.

YMMV :ironic:


----------



## GunnarGG (Feb 6, 2013)

*Re: CREE's neutrals have an ugly tint.*



ShineOnYouCrazyDiamond said:


> Ya know what I think the problem with the tint lottery is? I goes back to what I learned in college in my EE classes. Resistors are binned with 1%, 5% and 10% tolerances within the stated spec Ohm rating. If you want a resistor with 1% tolerance you are going to pay for it. The way they do it is that out of a batch all the resistors within 1% get moved to that bin, everything 1% to 5% go to the 5% bin and everything 6-10% goes to the 10% bin. So you know going in that if you cheap out and buy the 10% bin you will never get anything better than 5%.
> 
> I think you can apply the same logic to LEDs. LEDs are tint binned when they come off the line. Ideal tints that run along the ANSI ideal white curve are harder to come by and cost a significant premium when purchased in bulk. LEDs that are outside this curve are in the majority and get binned in wider tint variation ranges further off the ANSI curve. These are sold in bulk to mass manufacturers at a heavy discount and put in production flashlights.
> 
> ...



I think you're right about tolerances and prices.

Does anybody know how big the price difference actually is if you choose only the best tints with narrow tolerances?

If I buy a light for let's say $100 with a large risk of loosing the tint lotteri, how much extra would I have to pay to be sure to get the expected tint (narrow tolerances)?
I don't know how much it is but I guess it's worth it.

I rather pay $110 and have a light that I like with a nice tint than pay $100 and have the same light but with a ugly tint.

I'm not talking about sending the light away for modding, I'm talking about the manufacturer putting a little more effort and money into getting good tints.


----------



## ShineOnYouCrazyDiamond (Feb 6, 2013)

*Re: CREE's neutrals have an ugly tint.*

Maybe somebody with industry experience could speak better to the pricing point. 

I only buy batches of 5-10 LEDs cut off a reel so I definitely pay a premium. Manufacturers buy reels of 1,000s.


----------



## jtr1962 (Feb 6, 2013)

*Re: CREE's neutrals have an ugly hue. Why all the fanfare for XPG or XML neutral ligh*



ShineOnYouCrazyDiamond said:


> Ya know what I think the problem with the tint lottery is? I goes back to what I learned in college in my EE classes. Resistors are binned with 1%, 5% and 10% tolerances within the stated spec Ohm rating. If you want a resistor with 1% tolerance you are going to pay for it. The way they do it is that out of a batch all the resistors within 1% get moved to that bin, everything 1% to 5% go to the 5% bin and everything 6-10% goes to the 10% bin. So you know going in that if you cheap out and buy the 10% bin you will never get anything better than 5%.


There's actually a bit more to it than this. The reason higher tolerance resistors cost more is because they need to be made more stable. A resistor which might be within 1% of nominal at room temperature does nobody any good if goes 5% either way at temperature extremes. Because of this, high tolerance resistors are usually manufactured separately. There generally isn't any issue of what to do with resistors which aren't within 1% of nominal because standard 1% values are much closer to each other than standard 5% values (see chart). For each tolerance category every resistor made will be able to be sorted into one of the standard values. I've noticed over the last few years that 1% resistors aren't any more expensive than 5% resistors. Even 0.1% resistors aren't completely off the charts like they used to be. You can get certain values for under 10 cents in 1000s.

LEDs are a bit different. The manufacturer always aims for the highest flux bin and the most idea tint (for a given color temperature). Due to process variations not all LEDs make the cut, so they're sorted into bins. I would imagine some percentage fail to make any bin. Those are either discarded or perhaps sold to manufacturers using them in low-cost items where tint really isn't all that important (i.e. flashlights and lanterns sold a dollar stores).


----------



## jtr1962 (Feb 6, 2013)

*Re: CREE's neutrals have an ugly tint.*



GunnarGG said:


> Does anybody know how big the price difference actually is if you choose only the best tints with narrow tolerances?


It's not as large as you might think. If you look at the various part numbers for Cree LEDs sold by Mouser, decipher them for which are tighter tolerances, you'll find maybe a 10% or 20% price difference. The price differences are actually much larger between flux bins, with the highest flux bins always fetching a big premium because of their relatively scarcity. I think LED manufacturers have actually gotten pretty good at making consistent tints, so they no longer fetch a huge premium. Certainly the days of getting very blue or purple or green LEDs are over because those wouldn't even make the cut in the loosest bins.


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## ledmitter_nli (Feb 6, 2013)

*Re: CREE's neutrals have an ugly hue. Why all the fanfare for XPG or XML neutral ligh*



jtr1962 said:


> There's actually a bit more to it than this. The reason higher tolerance resistors cost more is because they need to be made more stable. A resistor which might be within 1% of nominal at room temperature does nobody any good if goes 5% either way at temperature extremes. Because of this, high tolerance resistors are usually manufactured separately. There generally isn't any issue of what to do with resistors which aren't within 1% of nominal because standard 1% values are much closer to each other than standard 5% values (see chart). For each tolerance category every resistor made will be able to be sorted into one of the standard values. I've noticed over the last few years that 1% resistors aren't any more expensive than 5% resistors. Even 0.1% resistors aren't completely off the charts like they used to be. You can get certain values for under 10 cents in 1000s.
> 
> LEDs are a bit different. The manufacturer always aims for the highest flux bin and the most idea tint (for a given color temperature). Due to process variations not all LEDs make the cut, so they're sorted into bins. I would imagine some percentage fail to make any bin. Those are either discarded or perhaps sold to manufacturers using them in low-cost items where tint really isn't all that important (i.e. flashlights and lanterns sold a dollar stores).



Another frequent Main Street, StarBucks Denizen? Small world!

And here too so it seems 
http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb...u-re-wearing&p=4132736&viewfull=1#post4132736


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## jtr1962 (Feb 7, 2013)

*Re: CREE's neutrals have an ugly hue. Why all the fanfare for XPG or XML neutral ligh*



ledmitter_nli said:


> Another frequent Main Street, StarBucks Denizen? Small world!


Actually, I'm more into the Chinese food when I go to Main Street. Great food, nearly as good as Chinatown.



> And here too so it seems
> http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb...u-re-wearing&p=4132736&viewfull=1#post4132736


Yeah, we could start our own Flushing branch of CPF here! Small world indeed!


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## ruf997tt (Feb 7, 2013)

*Re: CREE's neutrals have an ugly hue. Why all the fanfare for XPG or XML*

The bottom photo looks more realistic to me. The greens and browns are better represented.



ledmitter_nli said:


> "High Cri" XPG (bottom) vs Nichia 119 (top)


----------



## ruf997tt (Feb 7, 2013)

*Re: CREE's neutrals have an ugly hue. Why all the fanfare for XPG or XML*



ledmitter_nli said:


> Can anybody figure out what it is?



It's a caterpiller...:lolsign:


----------



## kaichu dento (Feb 7, 2013)

*Re: Why all the fanfare for XPG or XML*



ledmitter_nli said:


> For example. Neutral XML vs Nichia 219
> 
> 
> 
> ...


This picture shows no clear evidence of anything being 'blown away' other than from a prejudicialy disposed perspective. 
The former may show a bit warmer presentation of man-made light, while the second picture shows an example of a very good light source for working under.



ledmitter_nli said:


> Nichia (top) XML (bottom)


Not enough of a difference to be worthy of mention. Did you take these pics?



Moonwayman said:


> Thanks for posting this hcri xpg vs 119 shots. I own an hcri xpg but have not seen the 119 in person. Are the pictures below of 119 representative of what you perceive? The xpg shot does capture the spirit of what I seed in real life, though it seems richer and a bit warmer to my eyes in real life. Is the 219 warmer than the 119?


He didn't post these pics - they were taken from my thread titled "Not all high CRI's are the same..." and have been misused to promote a mindset that what one prefers is superior to what others prefer. I'm glad you like them and hope that you can use the information to determine what your own preferences are and not let others convince you that they know more than you when it comes to applicability.

"High Cri" XPG (bottom) vs Nichia 119 (top)








[/QUOTE]



ledmitter_nli said:


> When you have better overall color rendering, whatever you are pointing the light at has better depth separation. It's easier to perceive slight shades of color (differences) things APPEAR more natural.
> Yeah, CREE LED's are adequate... There are better options if you require more realistic color space illumination however. Pics speak for themselves... I'm sure the Nichia's come to favor more readily with photographers for this very reason.


Excellent posts and presented in a manner that could have made the whole thread better from the start.



ledmitter_nli said:


> I think more accurate colors trumps lumens.
> The Nichia's are like trigonometry nerds. The CREE LED's are like brainless steroid bodybuilders. Yeah they have output, but missing acumen.


Nice start to a post that ends with a very poorly presented analogy which insults any that find the XP-G or XM-L to be excellent in many cases.
Your overusage of the smily faces does very little in terms of hiding your denigration for many of the rest of us. There is no 'better' for the whole body of any user group so much as there is a 'better' for this user, that user or application.
As a huge Nichia fan I agree with many of your views, but none of the contempt shown for any whose preferences you find to be 'brainless' and 'missing acumen'.



>


Now you've very nicely cropped my pictures and once again come up with the wrong conclusion. Both tints look excellent to many of us, including the owner of both lights (myself) and simply show that depending on what one needs, variances between types of emitters need to be taken into account when making a choice.


ledmitter_nli said:


> Just what's on the first page. Searching Google images will show you many examples.


How about more accurately stating that many of the pictures you've used in this thread were gleaned from right here in CPF.


ledmitter_nli said:


> Sure, I didn't mean to suggest lumens have no bearing in eye sensitivity usefulness. Of course it does. But "BETTER" lumens are more efficient at increasing our perception of a target elicited.


Better lumens? The only better lumens are lumens that the end user determines are more applicable to their own personal needs, and can vary quite widely dependent on application. 
One reason why I have three lights that I use very regularly that are equipped with the Nichia 219, Nichia 119 (neither of which look like the other tint-wise) and XM-L.



ledmitter_nli said:


> Really? I mean, really? .... Seeing color rendered through "pure" neutral light (sunlight 5500 Kelvin) is a hardwired component of our brain. Opting for artificial lighting that's either too cool or too warm is only forcing our visual cortex to struggle harder, things really look _artificial_. If you consider high CRI flashlights, the closer we get to simulating natural sunlight, the better the subjects to our lights will appear. Skewing towards "warmer" or "cooler" is adverse to how evolution evolved us to see. These cool and warm tints don't serve a purpose for anything other than being an achievement stepping stone to something better. For now the Nichia 219 actually *is* better
> 
> Reminder: Warm and cool wavelengths are not "NATURAL"


Yes, really. Different perspectives will always exist, and your supposition that yours is the only valid one is not only self-deceiving but unhelpful for others as well.

You write as if you were completely unaware that light changes all through the stages of day and night, constantly varying with cloud cover, shadows and reflections, and this fact is all too often tossed by the wayside by those who would claim one specific tint to be the overall perfect tint for all uses/applications.

Correction: Warm and cool tints are both perfectly natural and both regularly produced by our primary, and natural sources of light.



ledmitter_nli said:


> The holy grail of LED flashlight BIN and tints, IMO
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Like these pics, although the first one looks a bit on the cool side, bringing the reminder that sunlight too changes in appearance when coming from varying angles and situations. Like the way you presented them as 'your' holy grail as opposed to what we all 'should' like.
Second shot looks absolutely stunning for both color rendition and composition as well.



Esko said:


> In God we trust, all others bring data.


I know this is just your signature line, but it seems all to applicable to this thread.



Esko said:


> Anyway, the illuminance of the mid-day sunlight is tens of thousands of lux. The illuminance of a flashlight is usually very different.


This is one of the biggest parts of the discussion commonly ignored when cherry-picking the CCT of midday sun as the sole perfect light source.



ledmitter_nli said:


> ...Sony RX100. The BEST slimline digital camera on the market... the ONLY photos posted in this thread using the Sony RX100 are the six in this post...
> Everything else from the strawberry's to the bush and field shots are from various places on CPF and BudgetLightForum. God only knows what awful cameras they where using for those.


Another opinionated post, not to mention insulting once again to anyone not using what the OP proclaims to be 'the best'. Particularly disturbing is how he uses our pictures to support his position, then derogitorilarly refers to the rest of our cameras as 'awful'. 



ruf997tt said:


> The bottom photo looks more realistic to me. The greens and browns are better represented.


You can find these pics in their original presentation in this thread, which I now plan to update sometime soon with more pics.


ruf997tt said:


> It's a caterpiller...:lolsign:


Thanks for the levity!


----------



## ruf997tt (Feb 8, 2013)

*Re: Why all the fanfare for XPG or XML*

Personally I have flashlights so I can see in the dark, not to shoot photos with. I can appreciate how some may find a "too blue or too green or too yellow, rose, red, orange, etc. (name your color) not to their perfect liking but I bet when it's dark and they need light they don't stop and say, 'Damn, I can't stand this bluish cast.' and then turn the light off. And then again, maybe some do... :candle:


----------



## AnAppleSnail (Feb 8, 2013)

*Re: Why all the fanfare for XPG or XML*

In God we trust, all others bring data that supports me. I'd ignored the tone, but let's now review why sunlight is good light:



1. Bright. (It reaches aaaaaaaall the way across a field or valley)
2. Very bright. (Reasonably high lux is the primary factor for being able to accomplish most visual tasks)
3. Pretty good runtime.
4. Variable CCT, tint, and pretty good CRI. (Although, annoyingly, these change throughout the day)
5. Bright.

"What is the best light?"
A good light is one that works well for you for a task. Light is often modeled with these three or four parameters, which do NOT capture all aspects of color perception and task-appropriateness: Output, CCT, CRI, and tint.

Output: Artificial light output levels for all interior design are sorted by task, from ‘relaxed’ to ‘demanding.’ http://home.wlv.ac.uk/~in6840/Lightinglevels.htm has some examples and discussion. For most tasks requiring speed or precision, more light is usually better than less.


CCT is task-dependent as well. For example, cooking works best for me under medium to high CCT light with good-enough CRI. I find that fluorescents over 85 CRI are adequate to good, and LED from 85+ is quite good. Super high CRI LEDs make a little bit of difference, but I find far more benefit from getting the right CCT and tint for a task, than trying to get a single perfect LED… Especially since LEDs of all types I know of change their CCT throughout their current ratings. At very low current the overloved Nichia 219 looks to me like an array of blue-tinted white LEDs, for instance. Crees may shift color by 800-1000K throughout their low-to-high temperature and current regime. I like medium-to-high CCT for cooking, but other tasks may be best served by lower CCT. Among these, preparing for sleep to allow correct melatonin cycles is one.

CRI is overplayed as well. It’s sort of an outdated metric, and is obsoleted by the Kruichoff curve. CRI idealizes the black-body radiator as the uber-color-perception device. However, color perception requires photons of a matching wavelength to allow perception of a color. Some people exaggerate the effects of spectral spikes in modern light sources, forgetting the results of these spikes are manageable. Black-body radiators follow a bell curve spectral power distribution so that the ones that allow you to tell indigo from black have unusual tints. There are much better metrics for reporting color perception, but it’s a list of ratings, not a single number. Single numbers sell, arrays of numbers get ignored. As in this discussion 

Tint is quite noticeable. CCT is a major player in tint, but there are others. Cree’s tint bins are fairly wide, but better than LEDs were ten years ago. That’s no excuse for the current situation, but there it is. They’ll respond to the market, or not. Most LEDs shift CCT and therefore tint through their normal operation range, as in the allegedly “mint green” Cree XP-Gs that came out last year (That were usually more like a drop of mint ice cream in snow at reasonable drive currents). There are varyingly-appropriate tints for different tasks, but it’s difficult to separate tint from CCT. So aside from CCT effects, tint in a good light source will not be overwhelming (Few greens, purples, and so on are desired).

When I choose a light for a task, my first consideration is output: Lumens and beam pattern. A given task may call for half a lumen, floody or throwy. Or it may require one hundred, or thousands. The first consideration is, “Are there enough photons?” All else follows. I choose an appropriate CCT/Tint. Most of my lights are neutral-white because I find it to be a good all-around compromise. You may find something different to be your favorite. And then CRI comes in later, because most modern lights are adequate for color perception outside color-critical tasks.

I don’t find digital photography to require especially special light sources. I find that light characteristics are far less important than matched lights. Burning kerosene will appear orange next to burning steel. Many LEDs will appear blue next to fire, and cold next to sunlight. So in photos I don’t care so much what light I use, as that they all match. And as long as they do match, some CCT will have a natural appearance. In extreme cases (HID arc light, 8000K used for portrait) I have played with saturation to bring back missing red photons. But with or without that editing are striking in different ways.

So: End the tint snob religion. Find what you like, tell people about it, and don’t knock their choice. I’m glad you’ve found what works for you (If you have), and if not? Ask!


----------



## ledmitter_nli (Feb 8, 2013)

*Re: Why all the fanfare for XPG or XML*

Thanks for the replies. However, this all really points back to what's important:

Post #4
http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb...utral-lights&p=4129830&viewfull=1#post4129830

Wait. What's that I hear now? Oh that's right. Chirping crickets in the distance.

Empirical Evidence > Sophistry


----------



## AnAppleSnail (Feb 8, 2013)

*Re: Why all the fanfare for XPG or XML*

I use flashlights to see. I do not use flashlights to take beamshots. Please do try to be more pleasant and less confrontational. It's our forum, and it's up to us (and the moderators) as to what it is like. Since I use flashlights instead of beamshots, I'll have to narrate this:

It's a drizzly night. I'm out on a trip with my Triple Nichia 219 HML and hear a noise. Out comes that light, and on, and... Nothing. Can't see a **** thing, although the raindrops are nicely showing beautiful day-like light. Back to the Mini Mag Lite, which lets me see a rattling branch. No worries!

I don't mean to pry, but do you feel that there is any personal or community benefit from your evangelizing? The tone of it is certainly unpleasant, so I am unclear what your goal is. Mine is to use flashlights, and tell other people about the options present. Not to make their minds for them, or prove that I win.


----------



## ledmitter_nli (Feb 8, 2013)

*Re: Why all the fanfare for XPG or XML*



AnAppleSnail said:


> I use flashlights to see. I do not use flashlights to take beamshots. Please do try to be more pleasant and less confrontational. It's our forum, and it's up to us (and the moderators) as to what it is like. Since I use flashlights instead of beamshots, I'll have to narrate this:
> 
> It's a drizzly night. I'm out on a trip with my Triple Nichia 219 HML and hear a noise. Out comes that light, and on, and... Nothing. Can't see a **** thing, although the raindrops are nicely showing beautiful day-like light. Back to the Mini Mag Lite, which lets me see a rattling branch. No worries!
> 
> I don't mean to pry, but do you feel that there is any personal or community benefit from your evangelizing? The tone of it is certainly unpleasant, so I am unclear what your goal is. Mine is to use flashlights, and tell other people about the options present. Not to make their minds for them, or prove that I win.



I should put a  after my post. It's only banter. 

Regarding your drizzly night scenario; floody light vs throwy light? ..... Even an incandescent can throw with the right optics.


----------



## AnAppleSnail (Feb 8, 2013)

*Re: Why all the fanfare for XPG or XML*

And so if there are common applications (Seeing in fog, detecting sticks, trip hazards, wolves, raccoons, finding keys) where marginal improvement in color rendering is unimportant, why all the fuss and namecalling? I suppose that in true Internet Forum Argument form I should take the opposite stance that the lumen is king. But there is more to the issue than that, as I outlined in a (rather long, unaddressed) post above. Finally, the governing key is:

What works for you? There are many options. Buy nothing else.


----------



## ledmitter_nli (Feb 8, 2013)

*Re: Why all the fanfare for XPG or XML*



AnAppleSnail said:


> And so if there are common applications (Seeing in fog, detecting sticks, trip hazards, wolves, raccoons, finding keys) where marginal improvement in color rendering is unimportant, why all the fuss and namecalling? I suppose that in true Internet Forum Argument form I should take the opposite stance that the lumen is king. But there is more to the issue than that, as I outlined in a (rather long, unaddressed) post above. Finally, the governing key is:
> 
> What works for you? There are many options. Buy nothing else.



Dood. Yer taking it too personally. 

BTW: Still waiting on:
http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb...utral-lights&p=4129830&viewfull=1#post4129830

NE1? 

Not holding my breath.


----------



## ShineOnYouCrazyDiamond (Feb 8, 2013)

*Re: Why all the fanfare for XPG or XML*

I personally think most people have lost interest in your self-proclamation to being a tint God. I've completely lost interest in arguing a moot point with you. I don't think you are right. I don't think you are wrong. And at this point I, like many others, are ready to quote Gone with the Wind.

*"Frankly my dear, I don't give a damn!"
*
You argue with no point. You battle back with no argument other than no matter what you say I am still right.

You are turning out to be not much more that a thread troll and have just made my most exclusive list of favorite members here on CPF. Only 2-3 have ever made this list and it's generally because I just don't give a s**t what they have to say at all. So, congratulations! You are a proud new member on my list. I call it the "Ignore List".

Are you finding by banter boring because I can just keep going on and on and on and on about how pathetic this thread is and how I have not taken a single bit of meaningfulness out of it. It has not made life better. It has not advanced medical science. It has not advanced digital photography (please see the DPReview on your famed RX100 here: http://www.dpreview.com/products/sony/compacts/sony_dscrx100 and notice that it only got a Silver Review putting on the damn I wouldn't buy that camera ever list). I can be pretty sure it hasn't changed anyone's mind on their preferred neutral tints because you made no real argument.

In the battle of wits, my friend, you came unarmed.

Please enjoy your life on my new list. 

Geeze - I should really un-subscribe from this thread so I am not pained with the monotonous replies which are obvious to follow.

More banter on and on and on about the Nichia 219 being gods gift to luminescence. Does anyone even care. It's kinda like reading my response. I am saying so much yet if you read between the lines you know that I am just saying nothing.

Ok - now I gotta go for real - I gotta go snort some XP-G2 neutral goodness and get my crack fill before I really snap. 

For the grace of goodness - will a Mod please shut this thread down and put us out of our misery?


----------



## jorn (Feb 8, 2013)

*Re: Why all the fanfare for XPG or XML*

well the tint god, can for sure tell us witch light(s) in the picture got a nichia 219. Since it "blows crees out of the water", it should be easy.. Manual settings, wb is set to daylight.
It's a mess, but if you prefer, i can take a pic of something colourful using one light pr pic, but it will wont make it more easy.


----------



## ledmitter_nli (Feb 8, 2013)

*Re: Why all the fanfare for XPG or XML*



ShineOnYouCrazyDiamond said:


> I personally think most people have lost interest in your self-proclamation to being a tint God. I've completely lost interest in arguing a moot point with you. I don't think you are right. I don't think you are wrong. And at this point I, like many others, are ready to quote Gone with the Wind.
> 
> *"Frankly my dear, I don't give a damn!"
> *
> ...



^^^ (shrug)  :huh2: Also: http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb...utral-lights&p=4131284&viewfull=1#post4131284

You've stated your opinion. Thanks!

.... and soooooooo, when will someone post an XPG or XML beam tint shot that bests the Nichia 219?


----------



## markr6 (Feb 8, 2013)

*Re: Why all the fanfare for XPG or XML*



jorn said:


> well the tint god, can for sure tell us witch of the light(s) in the picture got a nichia 219. Since it "blows crees out of the water", it should be easy.. Manual settings, wb is set to daylight.It's a mess, but if you prefer, i can take a pic of something colourful using one light pr pic, but it will wont make it more easy.


Nice lineup jorn! How about the 7th light from the left?


----------



## ledmitter_nli (Feb 8, 2013)

*Re: Why all the fanfare for XPG or XML*



jorn said:


> well the tint god, can for sure tell us witch of the light(s) in the picture got a nichia 219. Since it "blows crees out of the water", it should be easy.. Manual settings, wb is set to daylight.
> It's a mess, but if you prefer, i can take a pic of something colourful using one light pr pic, but it will wont make it more easy.



2nd from the left?

Any labels? Or can you shoot a basket of fruit or garden? or foliage? Flowers?

Just your best "High CRI" XML or XPG tint next to (or can even be pictured separately) a Nichia NVSL219A (commonly used High CRI version). We want to see which LED provides the best real life color rendering.


----------



## ledmitter_nli (Feb 8, 2013)

*Re: Why all the fanfare for XPG or XML*



markr6 said:


> Nice lineup jorn! How about the 7th light from the left?



Nope. Definetly an XPG. Too "orange-yellow".

Nichia has a rose tint like the 2nd from the left.


----------



## jorn (Feb 8, 2013)

*Re: Why all the fanfare for XPG or XML*

2 from the left is a lf2xt with a neutral xp-e. got one meter snow in my garden, so im not walking there until summertime 
Nr 3 from the left is a trunite ti with a nichia 219.
Nr 8 is a preon p0 ti with a 219.
Nr 12 is a m61 219.


----------



## ledmitter_nli (Feb 8, 2013)

*Re: Why all the fanfare for XPG or XML*



ShineOnYouCrazyDiamond said:


> Are you finding by banter boring because I can just keep going on and on and on and on about how pathetic this thread is and how I have not taken a single bit of meaningfulness out of it. It has not made life better. It has not advanced medical science. It has not advanced digital photography (please see the DPReview on your famed RX100 here: http://www.dpreview.com/products/sony/compacts/sony_dscrx100 and notice that it only got a Silver Review putting on the damn I wouldn't buy that camera ever list). I can be pretty sure it hasn't changed anyone's mind on their preferred neutral tints because you made no real argument.
> 
> In the battle of wits, my friend, you came unarmed.




BTW:

"*Silver Award*
The RX100 *is probably the most capable compact camera on the market today*, combining the image quality benefits of a mid-sized sensor with the proportions of a conventional compact. Extensive, though not flawless, manual controls make the RX100 a great second camera for DSLR shooters."

http://www.dpreview.com/products/sony/compacts/sony_dscrx100/review

Hey you wanted to drop names. Straight from the reviewers mouth.


----------



## markr6 (Feb 8, 2013)

The suspense is killing me jorn!! Not the 7th light?


----------



## ledmitter_nli (Feb 8, 2013)

Yeah jorn! Which one is it!?


----------



## ledmitter_nli (Feb 8, 2013)

*Re: Why all the fanfare for XPG or XML*



jorn said:


> 2 from the left is a lf2xt with a neutral xp-e. got one meter snow in my garden, so im not walking there until summertime
> Nr 3 from the left is a trunite ti with a nichia 219.
> Nr 8 is a preon p0 ti with a 219.
> Nr 12 is a m61 219.



Which one is NVSL? Or are they NVSW's?


----------



## jorn (Feb 8, 2013)

*Re: Why all the fanfare for XPG or XML*

they all are nvsl.


----------



## ledmitter_nli (Feb 8, 2013)

*Re: Why all the fanfare for XPG or XML*



jorn said:


> they all are nvsl.



The XP-E could be a contender because of that rose flare around the edges. Would love to see some actual subject beam shots 

I'm viewing things here on an IPS LCD screen so colors and whites are presented pretty accurately.

Thanks for taking the time to photograph that lineup :thumbsup:


----------



## jorn (Feb 8, 2013)

*Re: Why all the fanfare for XPG or XML*






1





2




3





4
Tossed together some different colours. Used 4 different aaa lights with the same 10440 battery. Same camera settings on all pics. Xp-e, xp-g2, xp-g, nichia 219. Only i know what is what. The cool white xp-g2 is easy to spot. :devil:


----------



## SemiMan (Feb 8, 2013)

*Re: Why all the fanfare for XPG or XML*

I could easily show a picture that makes a Cree LED look better than an NVSL219 Nichia ...... easy since I know how to use my camera. I just would not waste my time doing it since it proves little.

I do like the 4000K high CRI Nichia. At any lower color temps, there are others out there that are just as good. The Nichia is not "perfect" it is just good.

4000K is a unique CCT in that the eye actually perceives "white" as white at 4000K where as at other colors you generally perceive a tint.

Of course, missing from this discussion is that Cree has both outdoor white and neutral white that comes in neutral white colors and if you are not careful you may end up with outdoor white which is a low CRI, high efficacy product targeted at street and parking lot lighting.

Oh, I could also adjust (or use properly) my camera and get a Nichia219 and Cree (almost anything) of similar CCT and get the pictures to look pretty close.

There was a question on best tints and tolerances w.r.t. price and I think JTR responded to this referencing Mouser and Digikey. There is more to this answer. If you look at what Mouser and Digikey actually stock for Cree, their part numbers are not narrow bin groupings, but wider bin groupings at least at a particular brightness bin. You may be able to buy say an R4 bin of a particular LED, but you will find it is a large bin group. If you want the narrow bin grouping, you will need to drop down to an R3 bin. I often run into this in product development. I could make a run of products at a higher efficiency bin, but if I want to deliver consistent color over time, I may need to drop to a lower bin. The high CRI products also tend to be more consistent in their bin offering but that is also by virtue of the ratio of the phosphor to the blue pump. The more the output is driven by the phosphor output, the less chance for color shift due to pump/phosphor ratio.


Now back to the OP's original post .....

1) No one disagrees that the Nichia219 High CRI in 4000-4500 is not a beautiful LED. Efficiency is relatively low and tends to drop more with temp/current than other LEDs. That also is not debatable.

2) Making the blanket statement that Cree Neutral is awful is ignorant especially when based around a limited sample set.

3) If you understood Cree's product designation, you would realize that 5000K is actually what Cree refers to as Outdoor White, not Neutral White. This is a high lumens/watt product targeted spec lighting for Roads and Parking lots where light levels are at a regulated level and which the CRI can be as low as 65. Their designated neutrals are more in the 4000K range and have better CRI.

4) I have a very hard time believing your original pictures are automatic white balance "how the camera sees them I see them" pictures. The clock face looks perfectly white to me and looks like it takes up about 10% of the picture area. That or the wall is close to white. Automatic white balance looks for an area in the picture that it believes to be white and adjusts the color channels such that that object is white (within limits). Your camera has no idea that your light source has a green case, purple cast, blue cast, etc. Either your camera has done a poor job of automatic white balance or you have your camera on a fixed setting. Either way, I doubt this would have been the perception.

Semiman


----------



## kaichu dento (Feb 8, 2013)

*Re: Why all the fanfare for XPG or XML*



ledmitter_nli said:


> Thanks for the replies. However, this all really points back to what's important:
> ...
> Wait. What's that I hear now? Oh that's right. Chirping crickets in the distance.
> 
> Empirical Evidence > Sophistry


Your post = unabashed arrogance from a self-aggrandizing CPF snob and troll.



ledmitter_nli said:


> Dood. Yer taking it too personally.


Your making it that way, by design I suppose, but I see you passed over all the points in my post made last night.



ShineOnYouCrazyDiamond said:


> I personally think most people have lost interest in your self-proclamation to being a tint God.
> You argue with no point. You battle back with no argument other than no matter what you say I am still right.
> 
> You are turning out to be not much more that a thread troll...
> ...


One of the best and most spot on posts so far in this thread.


ledmitter_nli said:


> ^^^ (shrug)  :huh2:


Hey, looks like you've summed up how a lot of us feel about your posting manner.


----------



## bshanahan14rulz (Feb 8, 2013)

*Re: Why all the fanfare for XPG or XML*

I'm a runtime snob. Your light sucks. Discuss. 
We get it, you prefer Nichia 219 high cri to cree XM-L. 
I like apples, but I think oranges are gross. Find me a picture of one orange that tastes better than an apple.

All the fanfare is about efficacy. I can make a 4-up XP-E light put out the same number of lumens as your Nichia light, and it has the potential to last longer on the same battery. Sometimes runtime or efficacy is more important than color rendering. Basically, I don't think anybody is disagreeing with you that you like the Nichia 219. But you can't tell people what they should like if they want to like something different.

Jorn, nice photos! I like the light lineup. I agree with moon that where I really see the 219 excel is with browns.


----------



## SemiMan (Feb 8, 2013)

*Re: Why all the fanfare for XPG or XML*

The last word ....... or is that a last picture is worth a thousand words ... or in this case last two pictures worth two thousand words ....

The posters original Nichia Image without any modifications:





and then the original posters Cree photo white balanced ... i.e. what the camera would have done if set to auto white balance. I dimmed the Cree photo to match the brightness of the Nichia photo so that comparison was easier.





Looking at the clock, the colors between the photos are very close, almost surprisingly so.

Note, the white balanced image IS what the eye would see when adapted to that light.

... Nuff Said 


Semiman


----------



## jorn (Feb 8, 2013)

*Re: Why all the fanfare for XPG or XML*



bshanahan14rulz said:


> I'm a runtime snob. Your light sucks. Discuss.


Haha. im a throw snob, flood snob, runtime snob, tint snob, size snob (enjoy the small lights). Everything about flashlights is about compromices. If you gain in some areas, you loose in other.

-Runtime snob means i favour current controlled lights over pwm. But it will screw up the tint in lo modes. The harder you drive a led, the better it looks  How high is the cri from a 219 in a current controlled light when in a 0.1 lumen fireflymode? I'll bet its not that high, and the tint dont look too good. But it will run forever. Pwm will give more or less the same tint in any mode, but with pwm flicker, and way less runtimes. 

-Throwy lights cant be as small as i want them to be with the huge reflectors... And since im also a size snob.. well, i dont carry them that mutch unless i really know i need loads of lux :mecry:

-flood lights usually reqiuers lots of lumens to gain the amount of lux i want over a huge area, and that is bad for runtimes or size. Hard to choose between runtimes and size.

-Love to own lots of different tints (as long as they are not butt ugly too to my eyes). And there is no "allaround best tint" as i can tell. Nothing beats a really warm light when im outdoors in the woods or up mounitan doing caveman stuff. Around he house, or outdoors in wintertime it's neutral. Divelights cuts trough water with a really cool white with angry blue. For extra output, a cool white (efficient led) with not too mutch blue/green is king. For preserving night vision, red. 

Im having a hard time choosing the "best" tint unless i know exactly what im going to use the light for. I dident really like angry blue until i went diving with one. The warm ones made everything look orange until i took it up mountian and saw the light. I have always liked neutrals, but have found out by trial and error that they are not always the best for everything.


----------



## SemiMan (Feb 8, 2013)

*Re: Why all the fanfare for XPG or XML*



jorn said:


> -Runtime snob means i favour current controlled lights over pwm. But it will screw up the tint in lo modes. The harder you drive a led, the better it looks  How high is the cri from a 219 in a current controlled light when in a 0.1 lumen fireflymode? I'll bet its not that high, and the tint dont look too good. But it will run forever. Pwm will give more or less the same tint in any mode, but with pwm flicker, and way less runtimes.



Below about 10% of the nominal current, the efficiency of the LED drops normally. You would be better using current control down to 10% then PWMing after that. You would of course need to have switch mode driver that runs efficient at light loads. Not all of them do.

Semiman


----------



## ledmitter_nli (Feb 8, 2013)

*Re: Why all the fanfare for XPG or XML*



SemiMan said:


> The last word ....... or is that a last picture is worth a thousand words ... or in this case last two pictures worth two thousand words ....
> 
> The posters original Nichia Image without any modifications:
> 
> ...



How do you know the CREE photo wasn't already auto balanced? LoLz.

You'd think the original poster would have said "This actually looks better on the camera than what I see in person."

Original Thread Found!

Notice the "*Color rendering comparison. *
WHITE BALANCE: 4350K"

http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?336907-Post-your-Nichia-219-4500k-beamshots/page4


Anyway I'll post some shots between a few lights soon.

Hoping the thread doesn't get shut down. We know there's a lot of New Age Sensitive people in here.

C'mon, let's keep this rolling it's fun and games.


----------



## SemiMan (Feb 8, 2013)

*Re: Why all the fanfare for XPG or XML*



ledmitter_nli said:


> How do you know the CREE photo wasn't already auto balanced? LoLz.
> 
> You'd think the original poster would have said "This actually looks better on the camera than what I see in person."



For one, YOU ARE the original poster. You cut and pasted images without any references which means you were passing them off as your own. You used them for a comparison and had no clue w.r.t. what they were. That makes your credibility just about 0. 

For two, how do I know you didn't white balance the images ... well cause I have developed cameras, LED lighting, and I know fairly intimately how lighting and cameras interact. I could tell instantly the Cree photo was not white balanced and the Nichia picture was as there was obviously something "white" in the picture. You can Lolz all you want, but YOU are the one that posted the images.

I think someone used the word Troll?


----------



## ledmitter_nli (Feb 8, 2013)

*Re: Why all the fanfare for XPG or XML*

"I haven't been this excited about an led in quite some time. The thought of having an led that is around cct 4500k, good color rendition, and very similar characteristically and physically as an XP-G, the imagination goes wild. Hi-cri at 1.4A, triple, quad hi-cri dropins, malkoffs, etc. the imagination and expectations go wild! 

Or so that's the hope.

With the Nichia 219 made available to us led lovers, all of these things could possibly come true. However, we haven't seen any beamshots or output from this led. So in anticipation of the eventual pics and posts, I'll start this thread by requesting any pics of this led that you guys have. Beamshots, white wall, comparisons to hi-cri xpg, nichia 119, led swaps, etc would be awesome.

Who will be the first to post a quad nichia 219 p60 drop-in driven at 5.6A?" <---------




http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?336907-Post-your-Nichia-219-4500k-beamshots

"Just got my 4500K Nichia 219s from csshih, dropped one in my V10 ti. 
Wow. Just beautiful. Got my work cut out for me re-modding my lights."
http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb...0k-beamshots&p=3929563&viewfull=1#post3929563

"No distance shots yet. 
Here's a shot of an SC600 with stock cool emitter, HDS Basic60 with Nichia219 4500k, and a V10R with Nichia219 4500k.
None of the lights were on 100%, tried to get them balanced for a group shot. 
The output from the 219 is really a perfect white to my eye. Adds nothing."
http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb...0k-beamshots&p=3931958&viewfull=1#post3931958

"What's exciting about this LED is that it's the first I've used that I'd actually call neutral. It has almost no tint - it's like you took the "hard white" tint of a cool LED and softened it just a bit (stripping out the blue without adding a bunch of yellow in it's place). The fact that it does a good job rendering color is almost secondary to that.

There's always been the "well, what _is _neutral?" argument - I'd like to see this become the standard for neutral white light. I don't think it's too much of a stretch to say that future NW emitters will be compared to this one."
http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb...0k-beamshots&p=3932283&viewfull=1#post3932283

"Nichia 219 high CRI should be a great emitter for your diagnosis use. In real world use, I can distinguish colors better with 219 high CRI than with XPG high CRI."
http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb...0k-beamshots&p=3945027&viewfull=1#post3945027

"In person the Nichia looked more white than the picture conveys, however, the walls are really that color from 40+ years of airborn coolant and oil. It's a dirty old machine shop. It's as if in person I was seeing the light from the light but the camera captured the color of the wall. 
Anyway, the tint of this thing is ruining me, probably mod all my moddable lights with this eventually."
http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb...0k-beamshots&p=3940006&viewfull=1#post3940006

"The Nichia 219 4500k seems to be the real deal - better color rendition than the High CRI-Cree XPG, yet with a much higher color temperature."
http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb...0k-beamshots&p=3945227&viewfull=1#post3945227

"I know the XM-L is Neutral, but it isn't nearly as white as the 219. It's not yellow, but doesn't really lean toward green. What is that? Just a little gray?
My neutral XM-L NB drop-in is more white than that, but my Quark X neutral is almost identical, while my Xeno neutral XM-L adds a touch of brown But they are all really close.
Through I never saw it as white, I really liked it until my first 219 showed up..."
http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb...0k-beamshots&p=3945239&viewfull=1#post3945239

"Have not seen a 219 yet, but the 119 is about as perfect a light source as I've ever seen for critical situations regarding color recognition. I'm sure that I can't be the only one, but my first test for tints is my hand - I know what it's supposed to look like and the 119 delivers daylight color in spades, much as I'm expecting from my first 219, which should be in my hands the next week or so."
http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb...0k-beamshots&p=3945386&viewfull=1#post3945386

"This is such a great LED, I cant resist installing it into my previously XPG modded lights. This is a sunwayman v10a..."
http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb...0k-beamshots&p=3953457&viewfull=1#post3953457

"I've just received a couple of Malkoff Modules with the 219 (M61 219 and M61 219LLL) and* I'll reiterate what others have said. I was blown away how white the beam looks. Not blue, not pink, not yellow, just white. It's kind of strange because it has made me aware of how much "color" all my other lights have.* I'm getting more output from this than I am from my M61w as well. It's a great emitter, it just needs to be in the right reflector. As seen from the dark ring near the outside of the spill on my Malkoff, it's not a drop in replacement for the XP-G."
http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb...0k-beamshots&p=3940011&viewfull=1#post3940011

Personal testimony has a lot of weight. It just shuts everybody up.

But don't take my word for it.


----------



## darkknightlight (Feb 8, 2013)

*Re: CREE's neutrals have an ugly tint. Why all the fanfare for XPG or XML neutral*

Tossed together some different colours. Used 4 different aaa lights with the same 10440 battery. Same camera settings on all pics. Xp-e, xp-g2, xp-g, nichia 219. Only i know what is what. The cool white xp-g2 is easy to spot. :devil:[/QUOTE]

Thanks for taking those photos!
My eyes like number three and four the best; and the oil can (?) In number three seems slightly more yellow than in number four. Could i convince you to disclose which two leds are used in each of those photos?

Edit: sorry, for some reason I'm having a hard time getting the quote to appear as such



Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2


----------



## ledmitter_nli (Feb 8, 2013)

*Re: CREE's neutrals have an ugly tint. Why all the fanfare for XPG or XML neutral*



darkknightlight said:


> Tossed together some different colours. Used 4 different aaa lights with the same 10440 battery. Same camera settings on all pics. Xp-e, xp-g2, xp-g, nichia 219. Only i know what is what. The cool white xp-g2 is easy to spot. :devil:





> Thanks for taking those photos!
> My eyes like number three and four the best; and the oil can (?) In number three seems slightly more yellow than in number four. Could i convince you to disclose which two leds are used in each of those photos?
> 
> 
> ...



#3 is the 219 (I believe)


----------



## ledmitter_nli (Feb 8, 2013)

*Re: Why all the fanfare for XPG or XML*



SemiMan said:


> For one, YOU ARE the original poster. You cut and pasted images without any references which means you were passing them off as your own. You used them for a comparison and had no clue w.r.t. what they were. That makes your credibility just about 0.
> 
> For two, how do I know you didn't white balance the images ... well cause I have developed cameras, LED lighting, and I know fairly intimately how lighting and cameras interact. I could tell instantly the Cree photo was not white balanced and the Nichia picture was as there was obviously something "white" in the picture. You can Lolz all you want, but YOU are the one that posted the images.
> 
> I think someone used the word Troll?



*Color rendering comparison. *
WHITE BALANCE: 4350K"

http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb...0k-beamshots&p=3944241&viewfull=1#post3944241

Scroll down.


----------



## think2x (Feb 8, 2013)

*Re: Why all the fanfare for XPG or XML*



ledmitter_nli said:


> Nichia has a rose tint like the 2nd from the left.



My Nichia 219 PD32 does NOT have a rose tint at all.


----------



## ledmitter_nli (Feb 8, 2013)

*Re: Why all the fanfare for XPG or XML*



think2x said:


> My Nichia 219 PD32 does NOT have a rose tint at all.



Then it's probably the neutral NVSW219. The NVSL219 has a slight rose tint.


----------



## Norm (Feb 8, 2013)

*Re: Why all the fanfare for XPG or XML*



think2x said:


> My Nichia 219 PD32 does NOT have a rose tint at all.



Nor do any of the 6 or so 219 lights I own, two being 219 triples. All use NVSL219AT-H1.

Obtained from Illumination Supply.

Norm


----------



## think2x (Feb 8, 2013)

One of these is a Fenix PD32 with a Nichia 219 and the other is a Quark XP-G from a later Neutral run, but which one is which? 

#1





#2


----------



## ledmitter_nli (Feb 8, 2013)

think2x said:


> One of these is a Fenix PD32 with a Nichia 219 and the other is a Quark XP-G from a later Neutral run, but which one is which?
> 
> #1
> 
> ...



Top is the Fenix bottom is the Nichia.

I'm going to be posting some shots too.


----------



## ledmitter_nli (Feb 8, 2013)

*Re: Why all the fanfare for XPG or XML*



Norm said:


> Nor do any of the 6 or so 219 lights I own, two being 219 triples. All use NVSL219AT-H1.
> 
> Obtained from Illumination Supply.
> 
> Norm



Left is NVSL219 Right is NVSW219







NVSL has a perceptable rose tint and better CRI.

At least that's my experience. NVSW is brighter though.


----------



## Norm (Feb 8, 2013)

*Re: Why all the fanfare for XPG or XML*



ledmitter_nli said:


> NVSL has a perceptable rose tint and better CRI.



Not sure of the purpose of the above post, I'm saying none of my NVSL219AT-H1 have a rose tint.


----------



## ledmitter_nli (Feb 8, 2013)

*Re: Why all the fanfare for XPG or XML*



Norm said:


> Not sure of the purpose of the above post, I'm saying none of my NVSL219AT-H1 have a rose tint.



That's weird. There's a multitude of pics and posts on CPF Re: the high cri 219 having the rose (slightly pink) tint, like the first and third pics in this post:
http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb...0k-beamshots&p=3967480&viewfull=1#post3967480


----------



## ledmitter_nli (Feb 8, 2013)

*Re: Why all the fanfare for XPG or XML*

High CRI Nichia 219 (NVSL-H1) (notice the slight rose tint. These shots are from a relatively new Nichia module, the tint
is bout half as it was and is brighter after ~7 hours of burn in)





Neutral Nichia 219 (NVSW-H1)





High CRI Nichia 219 (NVSL-H1)





Neutral Nichia 219 (NVSW-H1)





High CRI Nichia 219 (NVSL-H1)





Neutral Nichia 219 (NVSW-H1)





High CRI Nichia 219 (NVSL-H1)





Neutral Nichia 219 (NVSW-H1)





Side-by-Side


----------



## Norm (Feb 8, 2013)

*Re: Why all the fanfare for XPG or XML*

OK maybe it's a difference in perception or description, there's nothing in the above pictures that I would describe as rose tinted.

Norm


----------



## nbp (Feb 8, 2013)

ledmitter_nli said:


> BTW: Still waiting on:
> http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?354430-CREE-s-neutrals-have-an-ugly-tint-Why-all-the-fanfare-for-XPG-or-XML-neutral-lights&p=4129830&viewfull=1#post4129830
> 
> NE1?
> ...



The most important thing to me: beam pattern. I win.


----------



## jorn (Feb 8, 2013)

*Re: CREE's neutrals have an ugly tint. Why all the fanfare for XPG or XML neutral*



darkknightlight said:


> Thanks for taking those photos!
> My eyes like number three and four the best; and the oil can (?) In number three seems slightly more yellow than in number four. Could i convince you to disclose which two leds are used in each of those photos?



1 is the maratac aaa cu with a cool xp-g2
2 univex aaa warm xp-g
3 liteflux lf2xt neutral xp-e
4 trunite ti nichia219

Nr 4 is the only high cri. Since ledmitter_nli tought nr3 was the 219. I guess the neutral liteflux bests the nichia 219  But it might have been the camerasettings favouring one over the other.


----------



## jorn (Feb 9, 2013)

*Re: CREE's neutrals have an ugly tint. Why all the fanfare for XPG or XML neutral*

The fun ting about tint is I always *think* some neutrals looks like its close to mid day sunlight in tint. If you let a little ray of sunlight trough a door or a open window (not filter it trough a glass window), and put your lights in a shadowed area next to the ray of sunlight. None of my lights looks like sunlight, and i got plenty to choose from. Cool whites are closer in tint than neutrals. My closest match to daytime mid summer sunlight was my arc aaa with a 5 mm led. And that made me scratch my head:thinking: It was like a last attempt when every other lights had failed. Not a perfect match, but it was really close.

I saw the sun yesterday for some minutes. Barly climed over the peak of a mountian in the horizon. The time of constant darkness is over. Some months now and the constant daylight will ruin most of my needs for a flashlight.


----------



## Esko (Feb 9, 2013)

*Re: CREE's neutrals have an ugly tint. Why all the fanfare for XPG or XML neutral*

Rose or not, it might have something to do with the drive currents. Nichia 219 has a rather small CCT shift, but a quite strong shift away from the Planckian locus. When using low currents, the tint of the light is close to the Planckian logus (="white"). When using high currents, it start to move towards pink (rose). 

source

I have taken some comparison photos myself, too, and as I said in post #72, XM-L 4500K looked better (whiter) with a set white balance of 4500K. I suppose this might be due to XM-L being closer to Planckian locus. It would be interesting to see comparison shots taken with NW XM-L2. According to these results, it's tint stays pretty close to the locus. I wouldn't be too worried about the strong CCT drift. Warmer tint for low illumination levels and cooler for high levels might be even favorable.


----------



## think2x (Feb 9, 2013)

ledmitter_nli said:


> Top is the Fenix *bottom is the Nichia.*
> 
> I'm going to be posting some shots too.


REALLY?? Let me show you then..........

#1 light from first beamshots........








#2 light from beamshots...............








Below quotes taken from thread title
*


ledmitter_nli said:



CREE's neutrals have an ugly tint.

Click to expand...

Evidently not since the "tint god" COULD NOT tell them apart.





ledmitter_nli said:



Why all the fanfare for XPG or XML neutral lights?

Click to expand...

*
You answered this question yourself. 

Shots were taken with camera(Sony H10) on manual setting and a diffused lens(edit: the exact same diffuser) on the lights.


----------



## ledmitter_nli (Feb 9, 2013)

think2x said:


> REALLY?? Let me show you then..........
> 
> #1 light from first beamshots........
> 
> ...



Gee... trying to judge looking at pastel colors...

Okay. Now that you mention the leds, I can see the telltale rose hue barely perceptible in the whites of the pattern above. It's pretty close. But doesn't best the nichia. Poor scene to judge.

Have anything with more whites and more naturally recognized colors such as garlic, egg shells, red or green vegetables, oranges, bananas, grapes, cherries, fruits? Maybe a coke or cambells soup can, something that may be common in your country as well as ours. If not, then an outside shot pointed at flowers, a bush or some vegetation on the ground?


----------



## ledmitter_nli (Feb 9, 2013)

*Re: CREE's neutrals have an ugly tint. Why all the fanfare for XPG or XML neutral*



jorn said:


> The fun ting about tint is I always *think* some neutrals looks like its close to mid day sunlight in tint. If you let a little ray of sunlight trough a door or a open window (not filter it trough a glass window), and put your lights in a shadowed area next to the ray of sunlight. None of my lights looks like sunlight, and i got plenty to choose from. Cool whites are closer in tint than neutrals. My closest match to daytime mid summer sunlight was my arc aaa with a 5 mm led. And that made me scratch my head:thinking: It was like a last attempt when every other lights had failed. Not a perfect match, but it was really close.
> 
> I saw the sun yesterday for some minutes. Barly climed over the peak of a mountian in the horizon. The time of constant darkness is over. Some months now and the constant daylight will ruin most of my needs for a flashlight.



Agreed a ray of sunlight just peeking through a crack onto the floor kills the nichia in color rendering. Big difference. I've suggested mimicking sunlight is the holy grail of led achievements. A halogen light does even better.


----------



## think2x (Feb 9, 2013)

I was only trying to prove this is a "blanket" statement.*


ledmitter_nli said:



CREE's neutrals have an ugly tint.

Click to expand...



*Saying *all* Cree neutrals have ugly tints is like saying all apples taste awful because the one you ate was bad. There are variances in everything in life.


----------



## AnAppleSnail (Feb 9, 2013)

It seems pretty clear to me that you'll ignore all data that doesn't agree with you. And halogens are far too cool to simulate sunlight.


----------



## ledmitter_nli (Feb 9, 2013)

AnAppleSnail said:


> It seems pretty clear to me that you'll ignore all data that doesn't agree with you. And halogens are far too cool to simulate sunlight.



A halogen light "does even better" as stated ... too cool? ever see a halogen reading lamp?

Ignore all data? All the data points overwhelmingly in only one direction :twothumbs The NICHIA's color rendering is better than CREE's.

Please refer to user experience testimonials from fellow flashaholic addicts:
http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb...utral-lights&p=4135314&viewfull=1#post4135314

"All the data" .... LoLz.


----------



## nbp (Feb 9, 2013)

You are funny! I don't anyone should waste their breath anymore. You don't even respond to the actual data posted, but rather rely on anectodal evidence and preference. It's useless arguing with someone like that.


----------



## darkknightlight (Feb 9, 2013)

*Re: CREE's neutrals have an ugly tint. Why all the fanfare for XPG or XML neutral*



jorn said:


> 1 is the maratac aaa cu with a cool xp-g2
> 2 univex aaa warm xp-g
> 3 liteflux lf2xt neutral xp-e
> 4 trunite ti nichia219
> ...



Thanks! I really like that neutral xp-e. What is the cct?

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2


----------



## ledmitter_nli (Feb 9, 2013)

nbp said:


> You are funny! I don't anyone should waste their breath anymore. You don't even respond to the actual data posted, but rather rely on anectodal evidence and preference. It's useless arguing with someone like that.



Yeah. All the people cited in those testimonials linked above are unprofessional flashaholics and out of their minds.

I think what bothers some people is that the Nichia really *is* that convincing. People hate change and the idea of having to have to upgrade their lights ALL-OVER-AGAIN is a P.I.T.A.

So it's easier to look away feigning any buyers remorse.

My budget for lights is pretty deep though. I only buy the best. I - have - been spoiled. So maybe that has something to do with it.


----------



## KarstGhost (Feb 9, 2013)

I see the slight rose tint of the NVSL219 in the pics. I have a Malkoff 219 from Illumination Supply and the Triple drop-in from Ill. Supply/EDC+ though and do not pick up on any rose tint even when trying. They are super pure white, leaning more toward cool and away from rose. Perhaps they are the more neutral NVSW219?


----------



## ledmitter_nli (Feb 9, 2013)

KarstGhost said:


> I see the slight rose tint of the NVSL219 in the pics. I have a Malkoff 219 from Illumination Supply and the Triple drop-in from Ill. Supply/EDC+ though and do not pick up on any rose tint even when trying. They are super pure white, leaning more toward cool and away from rose. Perhaps they are the more neutral NVSW219?



If you have one of each LED you can tell which is the NVSL and the NVSW. The NVSL has a darker (more orange) phosphorous.

Regarding that slight rose tint, these are the original photos of the brown clock. The differences between the NVSL219-H1 and the NVSW219-H1 is especially apparent on the white wall.

Browns really look great with the NVSL.

NVSL
http://oi49.tinypic.com/fjhx8p.jpg

NVSW
http://oi46.tinypic.com/2v7za11.jpg

Better to open each image in a new browser tab then switch between the two to compare.


----------



## nbp (Feb 9, 2013)

ledmitter_nli said:


> Yeah. All the people cited in those testimonials linked above are unprofessional flashaholics and out of their minds.
> 
> I think what bothers some people is that the Nichia really *is* that convincing. People hate change and the idea of having to have to upgrade their lights ALL-OVER-AGAIN is a P.I.T.A.
> 
> ...



Dude, you couldn't even discern which was the Cree and which was the Nichia when presented with beamshots. You obliterated your own argument. 

You just want to argue, plain and simple. You asked a question, and rejected all the answers. The reason is clear: you don't really want answers, you simply want to proclaim your superiority from your high horse. I followed this thread as I thought I could learn something. I have learned much from the other posters, but your posts have been little more than antagonistic drivel.


----------



## ledmitter_nli (Feb 9, 2013)

nbp said:


> Dude, you couldn't even discern which was the Cree and which was the Nichia when presented with beamshots. You obliterated your own argument.
> 
> You just want to argue, plain and simple. You asked a question, and rejected all the answers. The reason is clear: you don't really want answer, you simple want to proclaim your superiority from your high horse. I followed this thread as I thought I could learn something. I have learned much from the other posters, but your posts have been little more than antagonistic drivel.



The photo is too close to call. Seriously.

But it's a BAD example.

I wonder how much ambient light was in that photo, to-boot.

I also see from your SIG you own lots of CREE LED lights.

So I get it.


----------



## nbp (Feb 9, 2013)

If you knew me you'd know that TINT is the LEAST of my concerns when selecting a light. So no, you don't get it.


----------



## jorn (Feb 9, 2013)

*Re: CREE's neutrals have an ugly tint. Why all the fanfare for XPG or XML neutral*



darkknightlight said:


> Thanks! I really like that neutral xp-e. What is the cct?
> 
> Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2


I dont remember. Bought this a loong time ago when the lf2xt was "cheap" and still in production. I think it was 4750k. It's one of the few aaa lights i got that still have the stock led. Really like this one. Now they are hard to find and expensive. Mine has survived the washing machine 3 times. It's starting to get dinged up at the front end.. 

Same thing with my quark mini aa with a xp-e q3 5a3. Just as nice as my nichia 219's, but i dident want to use it in the pics. Got way more lux on target, so i desided to only use 4 diffrent aaa lights.


----------



## think2x (Feb 9, 2013)

ledmitter_nli said:


> The photo is too close to call. Seriously.
> 
> But it's a BAD example.
> 
> ...



ZERO ambient light, it was in my daughters room in the middle of the night, shades drawn and not additional lighting with doors closed.

Dude, I'm a HUGE 219 fanboy but I don't "push" that emitter onto my customers. If they ask my opinion on tints I will give it but I have never singled it out as the BEST. People see tints differently and what works well for one may look awful to another.


----------



## ledmitter_nli (Feb 9, 2013)

think2x said:


> ZERO ambient light, it was in my daughters room in the middle of the night, shades drawn and not additional lighting with doors closed.



Can we get a side by side white wall beam shot so we can really see what tint the XPG is casting? 

Just bring the camera exposure down.


----------



## think2x (Feb 9, 2013)

nbp said:


> Dude, you couldn't even discern which was the Cree and which was the Nichia when presented with beamshots. You obliterated your own argument.
> 
> You just want to argue, plain and simple. You asked a question, and rejected all the answers. The reason is clear: you don't really want answers, you simply want to proclaim your superiority from your high horse. I followed this thread as I thought I could learn something. I have learned much from the other posters, but your posts have been little more than antagonistic drivel.



*​EXACTLY.*


----------



## think2x (Feb 9, 2013)

ledmitter_nli said:


> Can we get a side by side white wall beam shot so we can really see what tint the XPG is casting?
> 
> Just bring the camera exposure down.



Sure thing, give me a little bit.


----------



## ledmitter_nli (Feb 9, 2013)

think2x said:


> *​EXACTLY.*



See above.


----------



## think2x (Feb 9, 2013)

OK, I took 4 shots, didn't want to waste alot of time on this being my first day off from work since January.

Sony H10 Set to manual, ISO 100, night scenery. Small bathroom with no windows. Walls are antique white so I taped standard printer paper on the wall. 
I held the NICHIA PD32 in my LEFT hand and the Quark AA Neutral in my right while shooting.

NICHIA=LEFT...........CREE=RIGHT


----------



## ledmitter_nli (Feb 9, 2013)

think2x said:


> OK, I took 4 shots, didn't want to waste alot of time on this being my first day off from work since January.
> 
> Sony H10 Set to manual, ISO 100, night scenery. Small bathroom with no windows. Walls are antique white so I taped standard printer paper on the wall.
> I held the NICHIA PD32 in my LEFT hand and the Quark AA Neutral in my right while shooting.
> ...




Thank you very much for those.


----------



## jorn (Feb 9, 2013)

ledmitter_nli said:


> The photo is too close to call. Seriously.
> 
> But it's a BAD example.
> 
> ...


My photos had no ambient light. I live far north. We dont have mutch sunlight this time of year. Daylight is only a few hours now. So when i turn off the lights, it gets dark. Some months ago it was no daylight at all. In some months there will be no darkness at all with the sun up in the sky 24 hours a day :twothumbs 

You couldent pick the nichia's on a white floor, or on the various colourful stuff i tossed together. And i diden't try to look for lights matching the nichia's in tint (making it even harder ). I just took some lights that had a battery installed. + You dident pick the nichia on the other dudes photo. So that's 3 strikes, youre out 

Just shows you might have some few bad xm-l/xp-g. Buy 50-60 more neutral lights and ull see the tint lottery in action. As i said before: digital photos are not a great tool for a tint snob. Buy 10 identical lights of any brand and i guarantee you will find one that looks just a little bit better to your eyes than the rest. Nothing is better than buying stuff and using your own eyes to pick out what you like.

I agree with the nichia's being really good, and so far really consistent in tint. But that dont make all the other leds bad.


----------



## think2x (Feb 9, 2013)

ledmitter_nli said:


> Thank you very much for those.



You are very welcome. This is just my opinion here, I prefer the tint of the Quark Neutral of the 2 myself but I use the Nichia at work daily for the HCRI. I do electrical work and I have found it pleasing how much easier it is to identify wire colors in bad lighting situations especially compared to a cool white emitters.


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## dusty99 (Feb 9, 2013)

I don't own an XML neutral light, but my XPG neutral (Eagletac) has a decent tint, although a little pinker than my 219.


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## ledmitter_nli (Feb 9, 2013)

I don't have a neutral XPG, but here's the C2 quad Nichia 219 pointing straight up (med power ~400 lumens) at a white sheet of paper "ceiling bounce" lighting the scene.

Zero ambient lighting. Camera ISO Auto. What it photographed is what I see. Color rendering and all.

Different shades of whites (eggs, carton, garlic) included for clarity.

Full size: http://oi46.tinypic.com/24lufxl.jpg







And the Quad CREE XPG-R5

Full Size: http://oi45.tinypic.com/s4swa9.jpg






Side by Side: http://oi48.tinypic.com/2hnz5zr.jpg


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## ledmitter_nli (Feb 9, 2013)

jorn said:


> My photos had no ambient light. I live far north. We dont have mutch sunlight this time of year. Daylight is only a few hours now. So when i turn off the lights, it gets dark. Some months ago it was no daylight at all. In some months there will be no darkness at all with the sun up in the sky 24 hours a day :twothumbs
> 
> You couldent pick the nichia's on a white floor, or on the various colourful stuff i tossed together. And i diden't try to look for lights matching the nichia's in tint (making it even harder ). I just took some lights that had a battery installed. + You dident pick the nichia on the other dudes photo. So that's 3 strikes, youre out
> 
> ...



Yeah those white floor beam shots are hard to distinguish when everything is bloomed out.  Actually the nichia preon #8 from the left? shows green right at the lens on my IPS screen. Is that the anti-ref coating?

White wall coronal shots are much more indicative of tints being cast by any one particular emitter (as demonstrated above).


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## jorn (Feb 9, 2013)

So you dont own a single neutral xm-l or xp-g in any bin, but still thinks they are ugly and inferior.. 
So your knowlegde is based on what? Hype, pictures and other pepoles taste?

The preon ti got a green gitd disc, and it's only 25 lumens. You can see the green disc from the front end.


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## ledmitter_nli (Feb 9, 2013)

jorn said:


> So you dont own a single neutral xm-l or xp-g in any bin, but still thinks they are ugly and inferior..
> So your knowlegde is based on what? Hype, pictures and other pepoles taste?
> 
> The preon ti got a green gitd disc, and it's only 25 lumens. You can see the green disc from the front end.



I have a ZebraLight SC600 Warm, and the tint is garishly yellow. And what's wrong with comparison photo's?


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## TSellers (Feb 9, 2013)

So I stumble across this thread, and as a novice, it alerts me to the presence of Nichia LED's and the fact they may have a nice tint for some. So, it seemed a bit difficult to parse out eligible lights from the thread, so out of curiosity I go try and find some headlamps based on Nichia LED's. Other than a Fenix that used a red LED and a Brunton I was unable to find much of anything. So I guess my question for ledmitter_nli is, even if someone were to embrace the argument and also become a Nichia evangelist, what are their options for lights based on current sate of the art Nichia's? Is their a list posted in another thread perhaps?


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## Studey (Feb 9, 2013)

ledmitter_nli said:


> I don't have a neutral XPG, but here's the C2 quad Nichia 219 pointing straight up (med power ~400 lumens) at a white sheet of paper "ceiling bounce" lighting the scene.
> 
> Zero ambient lighting. Camera ISO Auto. What it photographed is what I see. Color rendering and all.
> 
> ...



I like the second one better.


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## jorn (Feb 9, 2013)

ledmitter_nli said:


> I have a ZebraLight SC600 Warm, and the tint is garishly yellow. And what's wrong with comparison photo's?


So you dislike xp-g and xm-l neutrals based on one zebralight. 

Whats wrong with digital photos is explained. So many varibles, and when you take a picture of something, is *not* exactly what you see. If so, we wouldent need pro photograpers, filters, photoshop etc. Then on top of it all we all got different monitors with different settings. But you dont seem to understand it. Take the white wall pic above as a example. The 219 looks gray'ish with slightly green and the other looks yello. None of my 219's look like that.


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## Norm (Feb 9, 2013)

ledmitter_nli said:


> I don't have a neutral XPG, but here's the C2 quad Nichia 219 pointing straight up (med power ~400 lumens) at a white sheet of paper "ceiling bounce" lighting the scene.



I don't think the difference is that noticeable or even important, both look fine and would do the job adequately. You're splitting hairs and looking for differences that to the most flashaholics are unimportant as evidenced by the replies in this thread.

I wonder whether you are as critical when choosing light bulbs for your house? 
I know I spend far more time under artificial light than I would ever spend looking at stuff with a flashlight.
My main bulbs are quite noticeable cold cheap blue tinged Chinese light bulbs and I've never consciously sat and thought about the tint.
I have many 219 flashlights probably because it's my hobby and they seem to be the flavour of the moment.
I recently bought both the cool white and 219 triple drop ins from Illumination Supply, I really like the cool white for the amount of lumens it puts out and can also appreciate the 219, if I was forced to choose, I'd keep the cool white the output is far more important to me than the fantastic tint of the 219.



Norm


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## ledmitter_nli (Feb 9, 2013)

Norm said:


> I don't think the difference is that noticeable or even important, both look fine and would do the job adequately. You're splitting hairs and looking for differences that to the most flashaholics are unimportant as evidenced by the replies in this thread.
> 
> I wonder whether you are as critical when choosing light bulbs for your house?
> I know I spend far more time under artificial light than I would ever spend looking at stuff with a flashlight.
> ...



I originally picked the Kerberos quad XPG for the output (deciding to sell it). Liked it, used it a few times then picked up a quad Nichia 219. Used it, and mind was blown at the difference. I can have a wall of light and have good color rendition? It's so much easier on the eyes when everything doesn't look 2 dimensional like it's being illuminated with the sterilizing tint of a fluorescent bug zapper. 

I can use my Klarus XT11 for throw if needed (to blind someone) or the Eagletac MX25L2 SAR light.

But I live in the city. Does anyone who lives next to buildings need to put a 1' diameter hot spot onto the wall? Or into the trunk of a car? Seriously do you?

I have different needs. It's all flood. 1,200+ lumens of tightened flood is pretty darn nice 

I'm picky about bulbs too. For home, it's soft white CFL's with good color rendition. GE Reveal type are a particular favorite.


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## ledmitter_nli (Feb 9, 2013)

jorn said:


> So you dislike xp-g and xm-l neutrals based on one zebralight.
> 
> Whats wrong with digital photos is explained. So many varibles, and when you take a picture of something, is *not* exactly what you see. If so, we wouldent need pro photograpers, filters, photoshop etc. Then on top of it all we all got different monitors with different settings. But you dont seem to understand it. Take the white wall pic above as a example. The 219 looks gray'ish with slightly green and the other looks yello. None of my 219's look like that.



^^^ This is where user experience and their personal testimony corroborates what is trying to be 'captured'.

For your added convenience:
http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb...utral-lights&p=4135314&viewfull=1#post4135314


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## jorn (Feb 9, 2013)

ledmitter_nli said:


> ^^^ This is where user experience and their personal testimony corroborates what is trying to be 'captured'.
> 
> For your added convenience:
> http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb...utral-lights&p=4135314&viewfull=1#post4135314


You can find even more user experience and happyfaces over different cool whites. So that tread proves nothing. Different leds do different stuff. The same way as different engines fits different vehicles. The hayabusa engine is great in a mc, but wont be any good if you put 40 of them in a dumpster truck. The truck owner dont care about how good the engines revs or sounds. He cares about getting the job done with the least fuel spent. For a car, i would like a car engine. For a boat, a boat engine. 
You have barly scratched the surface of the led world and found one great led. And now you are making a thread and claim you dont see the fuss of any other led.. And wont even listen to the points experienced "drivers" brings to this tread. Fine. But youre kind of stepping on the car, boat and truck guys feets based on testimonials from mc entusiasts.. Different leds got different strengts and flashoholics enjoys the ones that fills their needs the best way. Tints, beampattern, cri, efficiency, surface brighness. There are lots of things to consider. And no led got it all.


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## Mikeg23 (Feb 9, 2013)

Norm said:


> I wonder whether you are as critical when choosing light bulbs for your house?
> Norm



I have a horrible time picking house lights! I usually save the packages of the ones that I like and then just buy the same ones next time...


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## darkknightlight (Feb 9, 2013)

*Re: CREE's neutrals have an ugly tint. Why all the fanfare for XPG or XML neutral*



jorn said:


> I dont remember. Bought this a loong time ago when the lf2xt was "cheap" and still in production. I think it was 4750k. It's one of the few aaa lights i got that still have the stock led. Really like this one. Now they are hard to find and expensive. Mine has survived the washing machine 3 times. It's starting to get dinged up at the front end..
> 
> Same thing with my quark mini aa with a xp-e q3 5a3. Just as nice as my nichia 219's, but i dident want to use it in the pics. Got way more lux on target, so i desided to only use 4 diffrent aaa lights.



Thanks for the info! I've been a big fan of the xp-e for some time now, I'll have to find some "older" lights with that particular bin 

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2


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## ledmitter_nli (Feb 9, 2013)

jorn said:


> You can find even more user experience and happyfaces over different cool whites. So that tread proves nothing. Different leds do different stuff. The same way as different engines fits different vehicles. The hayabusa engine is great in a mc, but wont be any good if you put 40 of them in a dumpster truck. The truck owner dont care about how good the engines revs or sounds. He cares about getting the job done with the least fuel spent. For a car, i would like a car engine. For a boat, a boat engine.
> You have barly scratched the surface of the led world and found one great led. And now you are making a thread and claim you dont see the fuss of any other led.. And wont even listen to the points experienced "drivers" brings to this tread. Fine. But youre kind of stepping on the car, boat and truck guys feets based on testimonials from mc entusiasts.. Different leds got different strengts and flashoholics enjoys the ones that fills their needs the best way. Tints, beampattern, cri, efficiency, surface brighness. There are lots of things to consider. And no led got it all.



Any user experience and happy faces converting from truly High CRI back to cool whites?


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## tychoseven (Feb 9, 2013)

I love my Nichias; I have a P60 dropin and a Maratac copper AAA, both with 219s. Much as I like them, they aren't perfect: the light is a bit too sterile, almost flourescent-like in its character, and I'd prefer something warmer and more incan-like (but not as warm as the High-CRI Crees, 3500K-4000K sounds good). However, the Nichia 219 is the best I've found so far, for my needs. 

In a few years we'll have something different, and hopefully better. 

And no, there's no way I'm going back to cool whites.


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## ledmitter_nli (Feb 9, 2013)

TSellers said:


> So I stumble across this thread, and as a novice, it alerts me to the presence of Nichia LED's and the fact they may have a nice tint for some. So, it seemed a bit difficult to parse out eligible lights from the thread, so out of curiosity I go try and find some headlamps based on Nichia LED's. Other than a Fenix that used a red LED and a Brunton I was unable to find much of anything. So I guess my question for ledmitter_nli is, even if someone were to embrace the argument and also become a Nichia evangelist, what are their options for lights based on current sate of the art Nichia's? Is their a list posted in another thread perhaps?



You can find mostly customs utilizing the LED. Many names are dropped in this thread of which I am unfamiliar:
http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?336907-Post-your-Nichia-219-4500k-beamshots 

The Nichia 219 lights I have are custom as well and can be considered expensive for a flashlight (around $380) each. They run BRIGHT (approx 1,200 lumens OTF), they run HOT, and are compact in the SureFire C2 form factor. Runtime isn't long however when running full tilt about 40 min from 100% intensity to 70% using a good 3400mAh 18650 battery. Much more practical runtime can be achieved using med power ~400 lumens which is sufficient for most tasks. I'm still testing runtimes for med mode having acquired new batteries.

Search Kerberos (Kenji) who makes my particular dropin. He's located in Japan and makes the best dropin in its class (IMO) for build quality and precision.

One of his sales threads: http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?310720

He's mostly word of mouth taking orders by PM these days. You'll have to specify 5.6A, High > Med > 50ma Low (moonlight low is also available)
(or another mode scheme with or without blink modes if needed), mode memory on or off. 

For instance one quad can be a High > Med > Moonlight Low > High > Med > Moonlight Low > Strobe > Flash > SOS > Beacon > back to High
5.6A, 10621 Carlco Spotlight Optics, Mode memory off. Reverse polarity or thermal protection is not an option. Just be careful with batteries.


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## ledmitter_nli (Feb 9, 2013)

tychoseven said:


> I love my Nichias; I have a P60 dropin and a Maratac copper AAA, both with 219s. Much as I like them, they aren't perfect: the light is a bit too sterile, almost flourescent-like in its character, and I'd prefer something warmer and more incan-like (but not as warm as the High-CRI Crees, 3500K-4000K sounds good). However, the Nichia 219 is the best I've found so far, for my needs.
> 
> In a few years we'll have something different, and hopefully better.
> 
> And no, there's no way I'm going back to cool whites.



That's awesome to hear. It's like a new quote we can add to a growing list of user experiences with the Nichia 219.

*Actually I found several more:*

"I absolutely love the tint of my Malkoff M61 219.
I find it very neutral, just pure white light.
It doesn't seem as bright as other M61 offerings but the color temp makes up for it.

I used to think that Macs 2.8a SST-EDC was producing the perfect beam. I compared my MD2 with M61 219 to it. The EDC appears less bright with a cooler green tint. I was shocked." 

http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb...sh-and-fugly&p=4125279&viewfull=1#post4125279

"It's only a month ago since my very first experience with Nichia 219s. And yes; I would say that as well the tint and color rendition make them really pleasant and comfortable for the eyes.
I have placed my examples of M61 in each Surefire host, providing the best beam character, in my opinion.
Still I like the M61W and it provides better throw for same output but Nichia 219 is better for short distance and indoors."

http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb...sh-and-fugly&p=4125221&viewfull=1#post4125221

"I love the Nichia 219 high cri from Illumiation supply and have modded a few lights (HDS, Kroma, Malkoff 2D Maglite drop in etc) with this LED. Then I have factory Nichia high cri 219s like my Piccolo AAA, Torchlab triple LMH Nichia drop in, Malkoff M61 Nichia 219 etc. so yes I love the Nichia high cri 219.

Problem is once you've gone to the dark side (or the high cri side) there's no way back to enjoying the poor color rendering of the standard LEDs anymore, so be warned all those thinking of trying high cri's of any color temperature."

http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb...sh-and-fugly&p=4123681&viewfull=1#post4123681

"What I particularly like about Dave's (Nailbender) Nichia 219 drop-in is that after a little use (a couple of days), tint is no longer an issue - You forget the actual color temp. of the 'light and focus on how amazing things look: This, to me, is the essence of a neutral high color rendition; also there appears to be no color shift, at all, as the lower levels are accessed.

Out of the box the Nichia 219 had a suggestion of pink; not much, but it was visible. After a few hrs. runtime the pink had burnt off leaving gorgeous neutral and very useful light. This is the tint I have been looking for, " A tint that you don't even think about"! 

http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb...sh-and-fugly&p=4020936&viewfull=1#post4020936

"I have some of the 4500K 219 from Illumination Supply that I've used in flood 'mule lights' for use during power outage. Yes, they have spoiled me for tint and Hi-CRI. Some of the Neutral XP-G's are close but the big problem I have with the XM-L is color separation. Yes, it is a problem in all of the LED's but the super size die of the XM-L puts it over the edge for my use. The cooler, almost purple light comes straight out the top while the warmer and yellows come out towards the edge. Depending on secondary optics or diffusion to put it back together has 'mixed' results." 

http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb...sh-and-fugly&p=4014672&viewfull=1#post4014672

   "*The 5000K one does seem close to ideal. Certainly a step up from the fugly yellow beams that pass themselves off as neutral*."   

http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb...sh-and-fugly&p=4014649&viewfull=1#post4014649


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## jorn (Feb 10, 2013)

ledmitter_nli said:


> Any user experience and happy faces converting from truly High CRI back to cool whites?


Yes.. pepole that know different leds and their strengths. 

So you mean if a person likes A, he cant like B or C? There is only black and white? How many throwers do you find with a nichia 219? None.. Why do you think it's so? The nichia has nothing to do in a thrower because it wont come close to some of the other leds in surface brightness. 
So whats so special about hi cri? Its hyped a lot i can tell you that. You couldent even pick the hi cri out of a crowd on 3 attempt, and one of them gave you a 50/50 chance.. Why couldent you find the 219 hi cri's in 3 attempt if it's blows everything else away? You can go on and on about the nichia, it is a good led, but its far from "best for everything". And when pepole here have tried to tell you it's not the best for everything you come with something like: "no it's better with 40 motorcycle engines in a dumpster truck.. just take a look in this mc tread and see what pepole likes about this engine."

I bet if you keep coming to cpf the next years, educating yourself in the led world. You will  when you find this tread... Seeing how narrow minded you once were..


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## ledmitter_nli (Feb 10, 2013)

jorn said:


> *Yes.. pepole that know different leds and their strengths*.
> 
> So you mean if a person likes A, he cant like B or C? There is only black and white? How many throwers do you find with a nichia 219? None.. Why do you think it's so? The nichia has nothing to do in a thrower because it wont come close to some of the other leds in surface brightness.
> So whats so special about hi cri? Its hyped a lot i can tell you that. You couldent even pick the hi cri out of a crowd on 3 attempt, and one of them gave you a 50/50 chance.. Why couldent you find the 219 hi cri's in 3 attempt if it's blows everything else away? You can go on and on about the nichia, it is a good led, but its far from "best for everything". And when pepole here have tried to tell you it's not the best for everything you come with something like: "no it's better with 40 motorcycle engines in a dumpster truck.. just take a look in this mc tread and see what pepole likes about this engine."
> ...



See above in bold. Any CPF examples (testimonials) of this conversion?

Thought not 

Hey. I might get a Polarion PF40 HID searchlight. So this topic is kind of petered out for me now.

On the fence observers can read the testimonials and see the samples presented and make their own judgements.

:wave:


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## Norm (Feb 10, 2013)

ledmitter_nli said:


> On the fence observers can read the testimonials and see the samples presented and make their own judgements.:


People have been making their own judgements throughout this thread, which unfortunately you, to your detriment failed to hear.



ledmitter_nli said:


> So this topic is kind of petered out for me now.:



Thread Closed - Norm :wave:


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