# disabling kershaw "assisted opening" knives



## brightb (Sep 25, 2006)

I really like the shape and size of the kershaw chive/ scallion, but don't like the assisted opening feature. I'm not even sure it legal to carry a knife like this around here. I looked at one at the store the other day and quickly put it back in the display case after it flung open. I joked with the guy that i would probably hurt myself with it and picked up a harsey air ranger instead. I didn't look at the mechanism at the time, but I am now wondering if you can disable it. 

thanks for any help with this
Bill


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## bubbacatfish (Sep 26, 2006)

It's still a bit of a legal grey area, seems to me they were designed around exsisting knife laws & the government hasn't set it's sights on them yet (thankfully). I have two Leeks, one (a CK&T Random Leek) given to me by my GF who's father is a police sergeant. He saw it when it arrived from the states (customs doesn't seem to have an issue with them either AFAIK) & pronounced it acceptable. While that is of course not legally binding it's good enough for me, I carry one or the other occasionally, they're nice knives. 

As for disabling the the spring I believe it can be done relatively easily if you have the right size Torx bit but for me the spring IS the knife. 

BTW the Leek I bought for myself I bought from S&R Knives at the Woodbine Centre.


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## Duncan (Sep 26, 2006)

The "rule" is knives that are opened by the assitance of gravity or centrifugal force (ie: flinging open), or by a spring or hand pressure applied to a button (switchblades, auto-openers like a Benchmade Auto-Axis). Opening by a hole in the blade or something which you can't fling open or doesn't have mechanically assisted opening would be fine.

You can find the exact definition by looking up the written law or going to http://www.physics.mun.ca/~sstamp/knives/canada.html which has a nice summary.

The more important thing to note is that concealed carry is not permitted in Canada - but you're unlikely to get busted for this unless you have a huge-*** knife hidden in your pants or jacket. You can search for the word(s) "knife" and "concealed carry" at www.canlii.org and find a few rulings on what happened to people who were caught with knives. Here are a few:

http://www.canlii.org/on/cas/oncj/2005/2005oncj360.html
http://www.canlii.org/bc/cas/bcpc/2006/2006bcpc93.html
http://www.canlii.org/bc/cas/bcpc/2001/2001bcpc242.html

This phrase pretty much sums up concealed carry charges (from: http://www.canlii.org/sk/cas/skpc/2003/2003skpc40.html)

"The final question to be determined is whether the accused is guilty of carrying a concealed weapon. The accused can only be convicted if the court is satisfied beyond a reasonable doubt that the accused was carrying the knife and concealing it with the purpose of using it as a weapon."

Given some of the rulings, one might conclude that carrying a small pen knife to open mail is not going to get you convicted, but carrying a machete (I'm taking things to the extreme here) in a city where there are no jungles is going to get you busted. However, there doesn't seem to a restriction about open-carry: as long it is not a prohibited weapon. So you could technically carry a foot-long blade around in your mouth (rambo style) and it would perfectly okay.

Hope that helps somewhat.


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## Reptilezs (Sep 26, 2006)

basicly to remove the kershaw speed safe you open up the knife and pull out the spring, its small and looks like a piece of wire. the only problem is that some of the speed safe knives dont have a ball detent so the knife doesnt stay closed.


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## 83Venture (Sep 26, 2006)

I don't remember wich company it is, but I saw mentioned on one of the blade forums that one of the companies making assisted opener type knives will soon be releasing a knife that has a disable switch for the assist feature.


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## zulu45 (Sep 26, 2006)

Duncan said:


> The "rule" is knives that are opened by the assitance of gravity or centrifugal force (ie: flinging open), or by a spring or hand pressure applied to a button (switchblades, auto-openers like a Benchmade Auto-Axis). Opening by a hole in the blade or something which you can't fling open or doesn't have mechanically assisted opening would be fine.


 
What of the Benchmade Griptilian? I've found that it can be flung open. Would that not, therefore, be an illegal knife?


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## Duncan (Sep 26, 2006)

Good question, I'm just about to order one from the states myself! My personal opinion is that the courts are probably pretty reasonable in their testing of the illegality. Since it's not designed to be able to fling open, then I can't see it being too much of a problem. Of course - you could say that one could loosen the mechanism enough to allow it to swing open easily, so if you do that then yes - I guess you'd be in trouble with a peace officer. On the other hand, if you have to be flicking it incredibly quickly to get it to open, and can't reliably get it open on the first try then you probably have a good argument. Above (in the links) it seems that to get convicted you have to fulfill a few criteria (again, not a lawyer here, so take what I say with a grain of salt):

1. Be purposely concealing a weapon with intent to use.
2. Know that the weapon is prohibited.
3. Be in circumstances that suggest you have intent to use the weapon to hurt, destroy, kill, maim etc. That's why if you are ever patted down - you say the knife is for cutting boxes/utilitarian tasks, NOT for self-defense. You should also not act sauve in public and try to impress your friends by drawing your knife and showing it off or throwing it.

On the self-defense note - I believe that you should never use a knife for self-defense, especially if you can extricate yourself from the situation. You get into trouble the minute you use a weapon on anybody for whatever reason, and in the case of self-defense you cannot hurt someone with a knife if they were attacking you with a bottle of shampoo and get away with it. The courts would seem to frown on self-defense if you clearly had a chance to defuse or escape the situation and did not. So if you are in your backyard and robbers smash the front door in - hop the fence and leave.

In regards to the comment on disabling the "assist feature", I would argue that would be quite weak in court - if it's switchable, what stops you from switching it on before you instigate an attack? Also, you could switch it off after an incident before the police get there. Perhaps the "on/off" feature is a safety mechanism for the user against accidental opening in a pocket, backpack etc.?

On another note - how do you like the Griptilian? I can't decide if I should get the serrated or non-serrated version. I don't see myself using serrations that much (more likely to be cutting apples and oranges while hiking). I guess the only advantage to serrations is cutting rope?

edited: for a spelling mistake and to respond to the "on/off" reply


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## zulu45 (Sep 26, 2006)

Is it considered concealed, I wonder, if it's clipped on he inside of your pocket, but the top is still clearly visible. EDIT: I think I'll just tighten the torx screw. I'm not really in need of it being instantly ready to cut. For that, I have my Buck TacLite, which doesn't swing open. EDIT 2: And on the topic of flicking it open, does that mean easily flicking it open? Because almost any knife, with enough force, can be flicked open without using the thumb stud.


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## Duncan (Sep 26, 2006)

zulu45 said:


> Is it considered concealed, I wonder, if it's clipped on he inside of your pocket, but the top is still clearly visible. EDIT: I think I'll just tighten the torx screw. I'm not really in need of it being instantly ready to cut. For that, I have my Buck TacLite, which doesn't swing open. EDIT 2: And on the topic of flicking it open, does that mean easily flicking it open? Because almost any knife, with enough force, can be flicked open without using the thumb stud.



Consider it from the view of a police officer. The clip could be a clip to anything - and officers don't have x-ray vision to see what the rest of the pocket contains. If you get pulled over for a traffic violation for example, and are personally searched (completely legal as the officer has a right to search for their personal safety), you will almost definitely get busted for concealment I imagine. Read the cases on www.canlii.org (just search for knife and you get a ton) and you'll see various examples of the law applied.

Another relevant note (I'm really sorry to the original poster for hijacking this thread!):

Carrying weapon while attending public meeting	
89. (1) Every person commits an offence who, without lawful excuse, carries a weapon, a prohibited device or any ammunition or prohibited ammunition while the person is attending or is on the way to attend a public meeting.

Punishment	
(2) Every person who commits an offence under subsection (1) is guilty of an offence punishable on summary conviction.

Concealed carry therefore goes out the window once you commit the above offense. The only bulletproof way of getting out of being busted for any knife offence is if you have a carry permit (basically LEO or armoured car.) If you are a member of the military, fire department, EMS, rescue etc. and must carry a knife on the job you are also exempt I believe.

I don't want to freak every Canadian out over carrying a knife. Swiss Army Knives, you are most likely fine. Going hiking with a knife - probably fine as well. Carrying four folding knives (backpack, jeans, jacket pocket, shoe)...overkill in the first place, and your luck decreases as well. I won't give up carrying my multi-tool on my keychain. But will I think twice about carrying a folder in my pocket when I go out? Yes.


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## zulu45 (Sep 26, 2006)

So considering concealment, where is the line drawn? I mean, what of small pocket (the key word being pocket) knives. Should have a big-*** leather case on our belt for every knife, no matter how big or small? I guess I'll have to find a nice sheath. I can't speak for other states, but I remember calling the Indiana State Police & the Kentucky State Police (the two states I live in) to clarify. The ISP told me that there is no problem keeping a knife in my pocket, but the KSP told me that any knife, large or small, is considered a deadly weapon, and should be in a sheath. I'll just have to somehow find more space on my belt, not easy considering the fact that I keep my Leatherman Wave, my Mini-MagLED, and my Fenix P1 on it. Actually, one thing the KSP officer suggested was using knives with good quality pocket (there's that word again, seemingly with no meaning) clips (which I use) to where, when not at home, I can just clip it to my belt or on the outside of my pants, to where it's clearly visible. I'll probably get a sheath anyway, though, just gotta find one that's big enough to hold at least two of these three knives: Buck TacLite 885, Benchmade 707s Sequel, Blackwater Gear 4140 (Griptilian w/ diff blade shape).


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## Duncan (Sep 27, 2006)

I didn't realize you were in the United States. Everything I've been saying has been in relation to Canadian law and legal precedent. I have no clue what the law in the United States is - but I'd imagine you could apply (if you wanted) for a CCW permit which would also permit you to carry a knife concealed in all likelihood. I would take what your local constabulatories have told you as being the best guide, or consult a local state attorney as well. As you can see - the confusion around legal concealment is quite a gray area when it comes to knives.


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## KC2IXE (Sep 27, 2006)

In the US, it's on a state by state, and even local level, except for a couple of federal laws (interstate commerce of switchblades being one)

As for CCW - some states allow knives under CCW, but some states don't issue a CCW permit, but a "pistol" permit - even if you have one, it allows you to carry a pistol, not a knife..

Silly, huh..


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## zulu45 (Sep 27, 2006)

Yeah, it's definately different in these two states. ISP says that I can carry it anyway without a license, but KSP says it should be visible, regardless of blade length. I found a great sheath today, though, to carry my Griptilian 550/Blackwater 4140 in, and since it's a discontinued knife, I'm going to retire the Buck TacLite 885, since I don't wish anything to happen to it. It's so hard for me to bring myself to make the first cut with a new high-end knife, hehe. I still haven't made a cut, yet, with my BM 707s Sequel.


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## jsr (Oct 5, 2006)

83Venture said:


> I don't remember wich company it is, but I saw mentioned on one of the blade forums that one of the companies making assisted opener type knives will soon be releasing a knife that has a disable switch for the assist feature.


 
The Kershaw Cyclone and Mini-Cyclone have AO with an AO disable feature so you can use it as a standard folder. A very attractive folder!, but I wish they used better steel. I've heard tho that a ZDP-189 version may be coming out later of the Cyclone!


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## ghostrider (Oct 5, 2006)

jsr said:


> The Kershaw Cyclone and Mini-Cyclone have AO with an AO disable feature so you can use it as a standard folder. A very attractive folder!, but I wish they used better steel. *I've heard tho that a ZDP-189 version may be coming out later of the Cyclone!*


That would be sweet! I've wondered about the steel since I have no experience with it, but I have handled the Cyclone, and it is a nice knife (for an assisted opener ). It's got a full, flat grind, and great ergos. If it was tip up and had a thumb hole opener it would be awesome.


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## beernuts (Oct 20, 2006)

The Kershaw assist can be disabled by tightening the main Torx screw connected to the blade, if you do not want to open the knife.


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## Lmtfi (Oct 20, 2006)

Duncan said:


> The "rule" is knives that are opened by the assitance of gravity or centrifugal force (ie: flinging open), or by a spring or hand pressure applied to a button (switchblades, auto-openers like a Benchmade Auto-Axis).



Did you mean to end this sentence by stating that such knives are illegal or legal?


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## Concept (Oct 21, 2006)

I have a Ti ZDP Leek and I think I was lucky to get it past customs. Even though their rules state pretty much them same thing as has been mentioned. Has to be opened by centrifugal force or gravity. Or by the use of a button or lever on the handle of the knife. So technically Kershaw knives are ok, they use the blade itself to open them. Hence not illeagal, but I dont think that would have stopped them confiscating the knife. The seller tightened the pivot screw to stop the spring action from working. I think this was the only reason it got through.

I was thinking about pulling it apart and removing the spring and then would have to tighten the pivot screw again to stop it from being able to be flung open. This then makes it hard to open again. So I don't know if it is worth the trouble?


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## highorder (Nov 13, 2006)

> If you get pulled over for a traffic violation for example, and are personally searched (completely legal as the officer has a right to search for their personal safety)



that is legal?! it sure is nice to have the right to be secure in your person, papers, and effects.. (4th ammendment US Constitution)

am I also to understand that it is unlawful to use force to defend yourself from being assaulted in public?

(specifically) in Ontario?


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## cutlerylover (Nov 13, 2006)

Kershaws site states that the speed-safe assisted openign mechanism is perfecty legal anywhere...As far as the assisted openign mechanism goes, I too think this is the main reason to get this kind of knife...If you don't like ot at all than there are MANY other knives that you would like, but if you like it a little than the cyclone is perfect for you since it does have the option to "turn it off" so to speak...


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## Concept (Nov 14, 2006)

I had a go at removing the spring (make sure its in the half open position). The problem then is that this spring opens the knife and keeps it closed too. You then have to tighten the torx screw which then renders the knife a PIA to use. 

I put it back in!


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