# Time to get a mill, learning this complicated world... (Picts of my new toy inside!)



## mdocod

Some of you may know I have been performing some light duty milling in plastics and small metals now for a few months on my drill press. I was told milling on a drill couldn't really be done, while that isn't technically true, it's certainly a pain in the butt, and comes with a lot of "issues" to say the least. 

I've been researching this stuff almost none stop for the last few days and am starting to get a feel for what I think I want, but I would really like to hear from those who have experience going through the process of making this decision. I'd like to find a machine that doesn't break the bank, but I don't want to make the mistake of starting too small. Here's my long winded thoughts at this time....

The most heavy duty operation I foresee in the near future is end mills up to 3/4" running through hard plastics. I'm wondering if the smaller machines rated up to 1/2" end-mill capacity will likely handle the larger size cutting tools in plastic without problems.? I'm basically looking at mills that would be categorized in the micro to mini to small category...

So here are some of the machines I'm looking at:

I looked at Sherline Micro-Mills, too small, MT1 spindles and only ~40lbs, I'm not going to even bother, moving along.

I checked out something called a BF-200 $~1000
...and don't like the fact that it uses a Morse Taper 2 spindle. MT2 is normally only found in drills, so the amount of mill tooling available in this taper style is limited. My drill also uses MT2 and I have a heck of a time with it, it likes to drop the spindle while milling, so I think I'll avoid a machine that supposed to mill that uses this taper style fitting. (maybe I'm doing something wrong?) hehe...

The *Taig Micro-Mill*, basically ~$1000 to get started with an upgraded motor and large table option. 
I sort-of like this options because I have heard good things about the build quality. It's small, but it comes out of the "box" pretty clean and ready to run. Dovetail column and overall attention to detail in the design is what makes these attractive units in the community. My biggest fear is that this mill is in the "micro" class of mills, and everything about it is small. I'm not sure what size end-mills it's designed to handle, but most mills in this weight class run into problems around 1/2" from what I understand. I'm under the impression that this machine has the precision and RPMs to do very intricate work, but might not have the brute strength to move serious material. CNC upgradeable at a reasonable price makes this attractive. I'm not sure about the ER16 spindle, seems like it's not as common as R8 but maybe someone can prove me wrong. (thoughts?)
http://www.taigtools.com/mmill.html

The "*X2 mini-mill*" as it is known in the machinist community. ~$450-600. (sieg china)
At half the price of the taig, and being in a similar weight class with a dovetail column, this is very tempting. It is available configured with an R8 spindle from some sources, which, if I understand correctly, is one of the more popular systems out there, with a lot of tooling available. Also available with an MT3 spindle taper, but I'm not sure why anyone would want a Morse #3 when R8 can be adapted down to Morse 1-3 sizes (IIRC) if needed for something. tilting column adds versatility, but I'm turned off by the small "micro/mini" size on this one just like I am with the Taig. scared to go this small, but am considering it. The price is hard to argue with if it will do the job. CNC upgrades are available for it. The variant I am most interested in for the X2 is harbor freights version, as it has the R8 spindle system, shown here:
http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=44991
MicrroMark carries a version with a "preferred" feed-screw and dial setup (0.05" per turn instead of 1/16" per turn), but I don't see this as being an issue, and the micromark version is M3T, not R8. 

The "*X3*" as it is known in the machinist community. $800-1100 (sieg china)
At around the same price as the Taig, this machine outweighs roughly 3-4 Taigs or X2s combined. It's not mini or micro, but rather, "small-medium" This is a good and bad thing IMO... The good thing, is that I am betting this is a more rigid machine that could handle bigger cutting operations, I have no doubt, that like the X2, it will not be as clean or precise out of the box as a Taig, but am thinking I am willing to live with that to gain strength and size. The problem is, this is starting to get into a weight class that complicates delivery and setup BIG time... Any recommendations for taking residential delivery on such a large item? The bigger price gets compounded just to get it into my garage and up on something that can handle it's weight. I'm thinking I'll have to request a delivery driver with a lift gate and a hand truck or fork lift to get it in the garage.
The X3 seems to have a very large following on the net, plenty of satisfied owners and a lot of after-market upgrade options, including CNC conversion kits from Syil and others. The X3 is also available configured with an R8 spindle, comes with a dovetail column, and is rated up to 1" end-mills, which is MORE than I plan on needing, but would give me some "overhead" in strength and room to grow if I come up with more projects in the future. I've read around the net that this is the ideal mill to go to when folks who are on a budget outgrow their mini/micro mills, so it seems like a logical place to start rather than have to go through that growing pain later. 
The one I am most interested in is this one: (based on price, hehe)
http://www.toolsnow.com/browse.cfm/4,1965.html
But If I can figure a way to get a 20% off coupon at harbor freight to work I'll happily go with their version to save the hundred bucks. Or if grizzly runs a special on theirs. As long as I get one with the R8 spindle I think I'd be happy. I've heard rumors that they might come a little cleaner and better assembled from grizzly, any truth to this? I've also read that they are the same regardless of which place you get em from.

I am favoring the X3, unless I am missing some big important detail. With all 3 axis controls right up front, and it's mill/drill style setup (has a quill with a ~3" down travel like most drill presses), I feel it probably has the capacity to be the most productive machine when run manually.

I'm also in the market for a small rotary table, probably something like this:
http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=97208
But that one would require I come up with a clamping method that centers things accurately (suggestions?)... I noticed that littlemachineshop, and several other places have rotary tables like this, that include what appears to be a lathe chunk attached. They are all ~$350-1500+, I need to figure out a solution like this for under $200 ideally. I must stress, it doesn't need to be perfect, anything would be WAY better than what I am using now, and when I am ready to upgrade to a better one I can make use of the small unit on my drill press, so it won't go to waste, but will serve as a stepping stone for now. 


-----


Sorry for the very long winded start to a thread here. If anyone is willing to toss in their thoughts, or, point out alternative machines that I am not aware of at this time that I should be considering, in say, the $400-1300 price range, please share! 

Thank You

Eric


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## modamag

*Re: Time to get a mill, learning this complicated world, help appreciated!*

Eric,

I was wondering when you'll break down and get one ";D
To give us a better understanding of your situation can you inform us of the following.
1) Space available?
2) $400-1300 machine budget or does that includes tooling?


I've had both the X2, SX3 and know local friends who have Taig & Sherline CNC. If I only have those to choose from then I'll go with a X3. Keep in mind that any of these machine you'll have to spend a little time "tinkering" to make it perfect for your needs.

If you plan to go CNC in the future then DEFINITELY the X3. It's much more rigid and the cost is not that much more than X2 CNC. And regards to CNC it's best to get it from a local rep such as SyilAmerica. The import and use tax will kill the deal from China.

I've had the SX3 delivered to my door with toolings before. It's like two pallets worth, but partially because mine is CNC. Three strong guys can easily lift this. Or if you have access to an engine host that's a one man job.

BTW: There's also a Super X3. IMHO that's not worth the extra cost.

As for the rotary table, don't bother with this or DRO if you plan to go CNC. For the X3 it's best to use the 6" rotary table so you can put larger 3-Jaws chuck on it.


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## mdocod

*Re: Time to get a mill, learning this complicated world, help appreciated!*

Thanks for sharing your thoughts on this!

throw in my thoughts here....



modamag said:


> Eric,
> 
> I was wondering when you'll break down and get one ";D
> To give us a better understanding of your situation can you inform us of the following.
> 1) Space available?


 
We have a 2 car garage, currently, half of it and all the walls are cluttered with stuff. But I'm thinking about breaking down the exercise machine (bench with leg/lat stuff) and packing it away since I never use it, that should free up more than enough space for any of these machines. Basically, a mill is important enough at this point that I'll make room for it however it has to be done. 



> 2) $400-1300 machine budget or does that includes tooling?


 
I'm hoping to limit the cost of the machine, including any delivery an tax (and maybe a tip for the deliverer if he's willing to bring out a hand truck and move it into the garage, hehe), to ~$1300. 

I'm then hoping to get enough tooling to get started for under $600, I realize in the long term I'll probably accumulate much more than this as I expand into more projects, but for now I must try to cut some corners to get up and running. I already own an assortment of end-mills from 1/16-11/16 size (there are some gaps in there but I have over a dozen end mills at this time, more than enough to get rolling), so that's pretty well already covered, I figure all I really need is a good rotary table and clamp system figured out for it, and some collets for the larger end-mills. It comes with a chuck that will probably work fine for the smaller end-mills, (I've found that smaller stuff has worked fine on my drill with the included 5/8" keyed chuck with JT3 taper, and of course, I've been mounting even the big end-mills up the chuck as well and making do... so that will be the continued practice for now). Looks like I can get collets cheap from use-enco, so that's not a problem. I already own plenty of mechanics type tools that I'm sure will be more than sufficient for tear down and rebuild of the machine if necessary. 



> I've had both the X2, SX3 and know local friends who have Taig & Sherline CNC. If I only have those to choose from then I'll go with a X3. Keep in mind that any of these machine you'll have to spend a little time "tinkering" to make it perfect for your needs.
> 
> If you plan to go CNC in the future then DEFINITELY the X3. It's much more rigid and the cost is not that much more than X2 CNC. And regards to CNC it's best to get it from a local rep such as SyilAmerica. The import and use tax will kill the deal from China.
> 
> I've had the SX3 delivered to my door with toolings before. It's like two pallets worth, but partially because mine is CNC. Three strong guys can easily lift this. Or if you have access to an engine host that's a one man job.


 
Sounds like we are on the same page, glad to hear that my leaning towards the X3 is inline with your feelings. I don't plan on going CNC anytime real soon, but like the fact that it's an available option. 



> BTW: There's also a Super X3. IMHO that's not worth the extra cost.


 
Yea I had heard about that "super" version, but couldn't figure out what it was specifically, grizzly appears to have a model similar to the X3 but with more features and bigger (not sure if that's classified "SX3" or not)... All I read about the SX3 is that it's hard to get in the states. The bigger grizzly is a little over my budget but I sure do like the concept of the tapping feature, the tilting head might come in useful, but I have no plans in the foreseeable future involving needing that 4th axis.... The 4th axis issue can be solved with tilting clamps, and I've seen these auto-reverse tapping "kit" thingamabobbers (I don't totally understand them, but I know they exsist, lol)..



> As for the rotary table, don't bother with this or DRO if you plan to go CNC. For the X3 it's best to use the 6" rotary table so you can put larger 3-Jaws chuck on it.


 
Excellent info ! Thank You

Thank You Thank You,

Eric


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## wquiles

*Re: Time to get a mill, learning this complicated world, help appreciated!*



mdocod said:


> Some of you may know I have been performing some light duty milling in plastics and small metals now for a few months on my drill press. I was told milling on a drill couldn't really be done, while that isn't technically true, it's certainly a pain in the butt, and comes with a lot of "issues" to say the least.
> 
> I've been researching this stuff almost none stop for the last few days and am starting to get a feel for what I think I want, but I would really like to hear from those who have experience going through the process of making this decision. I'd like to find a machine that doesn't break the bank, but I don't want to make the mistake of starting too small. Here's my long winded thoughts at this time....
> 
> The most heavy duty operation I foresee in the near future is end mills up to 3/4" running through hard plastics. I'm wondering if the smaller machines rated up to 1/2" end-mill capacity will likely handle the larger size cutting tools in plastic without problems.? I'm basically looking at mills that would be categorized in the micro to mini to small category...
> 
> So here are some of the machines I'm looking at:
> 
> I looked at Sherline Micro-Mills, too small, MT1 spindles and only ~40lbs, I'm not going to even bother, moving along.
> 
> I checked out something called a BF-200 $~1000
> ...and don't like the fact that it uses a Morse Taper 2 spindle. MT2 is normally only found in drills, so the amount of mill tooling available in this taper style is limited. My drill also uses MT2 and I have a heck of a time with it, it likes to drop the spindle while milling, so I think I'll avoid a machine that supposed to mill that uses this taper style fitting. (maybe I'm doing something wrong?) hehe...
> 
> The *Taig Micro-Mill*, basically ~$1000 to get started with an upgraded motor and large table option.
> I sort-of like this options because I have heard good things about the build quality. It's small, but it comes out of the "box" pretty clean and ready to run. Dovetail column and overall attention to detail in the design is what makes these attractive units in the community. My biggest fear is that this mill is in the "micro" class of mills, and everything about it is small. I'm not sure what size end-mills it's designed to handle, but most mills in this weight class run into problems around 1/2" from what I understand. I'm under the impression that this machine has the precision and RPMs to do very intricate work, but might not have the brute strength to move serious material. CNC upgradeable at a reasonable price makes this attractive. I'm not sure about the ER16 spindle, seems like it's not as common as R8 but maybe someone can prove me wrong. (thoughts?)
> http://www.taigtools.com/mmill.html
> 
> The "*X2 mini-mill*" as it is known in the machinist community. ~$450-600. (sieg china)
> At half the price of the taig, and being in a similar weight class with a dovetail column, this is very tempting. It is available configured with an R8 spindle from some sources, which, if I understand correctly, is one of the more popular systems out there, with a lot of tooling available. Also available with an MT3 spindle taper, but I'm not sure why anyone would want a Morse #3 when R8 can be adapted down to Morse 1-3 sizes (IIRC) if needed for something. tilting column adds versatility, but I'm turned off by the small "micro/mini" size on this one just like I am with the Taig. scared to go this small, but am considering it. The price is hard to argue with if it will do the job. CNC upgrades are available for it. The variant I am most interested in for the X2 is harbor freights version, as it has the R8 spindle system, shown here:
> http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=44991
> MicrroMark carries a version with a "preferred" feed-screw and dial setup (0.05" per turn instead of 1/16" per turn), but I don't see this as being an issue, and the micromark version is M3T, not R8.
> 
> The "*X3*" as it is known in the machinist community. $800-1100 (sieg china)
> At around the same price as the Taig, this machine outweighs roughly 3-4 Taigs or X2s combined. It's not mini or micro, but rather, "small-medium" This is a good and bad thing IMO... The good thing, is that I am betting this is a more rigid machine that could handle bigger cutting operations, I have no doubt, that like the X2, it will not be as clean or precise out of the box as a Taig, but am thinking I am willing to live with that to gain strength and size. The problem is, this is starting to get into a weight class that complicates delivery and setup BIG time... Any recommendations for taking residential delivery on such a large item? The bigger price gets compounded just to get it into my garage and up on something that can handle it's weight. I'm thinking I'll have to request a delivery driver with a lift gate and a hand truck or fork lift to get it in the garage.
> The X3 seems to have a very large following on the net, plenty of satisfied owners and a lot of after-market upgrade options, including CNC conversion kits from Syil and others. The X3 is also available configured with an R8 spindle, comes with a dovetail column, and is rated up to 1" end-mills, which is MORE than I plan on needing, but would give me some "overhead" in strength and room to grow if I come up with more projects in the future. I've read around the net that this is the ideal mill to go to when folks who are on a budget outgrow their mini/micro mills, so it seems like a logical place to start rather than have to go through that growing pain later.
> The one I am most interested in is this one: (based on price, hehe)
> http://www.toolsnow.com/browse.cfm/4,1965.html
> But If I can figure a way to get a 20% off coupon at harbor freight to work I'll happily go with their version to save the hundred bucks. Or if grizzly runs a special on theirs. As long as I get one with the R8 spindle I think I'd be happy. I've heard rumors that they might come a little cleaner and better assembled from grizzly, any truth to this? I've also read that they are the same regardless of which place you get em from.
> 
> I am favoring the X3, unless I am missing some big important detail. With all 3 axis controls right up front, and it's mill/drill style setup (has a quill with a ~3" down travel like most drill presses), I feel it probably has the capacity to be the most productive machine when run manually.
> 
> I'm also in the market for a small rotary table, probably something like this:
> http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=97208
> But that one would require I come up with a clamping method that centers things accurately (suggestions?)... I noticed that littlemachineshop, and several other places have rotary tables like this, that include what appears to be a lathe chunk attached. They are all ~$350-1500+, I need to figure out a solution like this for under $200 ideally. I must stress, it doesn't need to be perfect, anything would be WAY better than what I am using now, and when I am ready to upgrade to a better one I can make use of the small unit on my drill press, so it won't go to waste, but will serve as a stepping stone for now.
> 
> 
> -----
> 
> 
> Sorry for the very long winded start to a thread here. If anyone is willing to toss in their thoughts, or, point out alternative machines that I am not aware of at this time that I should be considering, in say, the $400-1300 price range, please share!
> 
> Thank You
> 
> Eric



Eric,

First, I know it is "your" money, but I am happy for you - having a mini-mill has been AWESOME for my small "shop" 

I have the X2 mini-mill, and for the projects that I use it, specially in plastic and Al, it is more than adequate. You can see mine here, along with a few of the mods that I have done already:
https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/152767

The pictures are in this post:
https://www.candlepowerforums.com/posts/1902499&postcount=30

I am in fact ready to sell it and get a larger one as I am starting to cut steel more often, and I need more HP for that. I am looking at either the X3 so that I can do a full CNC setup, or buy something even larger like that Brian (*MirageMan*) just bought - still trying to decide which way to go. If you are interested in my upgraded X2, let me know - I will make you a smoking deal 

What I am trying to say: the X2 is a good way to get started on something that does not take much space, but if you can go ahead and sprint for the X3, when go for it 

Will


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## StrikerDown

*Re: Time to get a mill, learning this complicated world, help appreciated!*

Your morse taper drops out because a drill press does not have a draw bar. A mill/drill uses a draw bar (threaded rod) through the spindle to draw the taper in tight and hold it from getting loose under side loads of milling.

I want a mill too for the same reasons. While you can do light milling on the drill it is not designed for it and the spindle taper will get screwed up from coming loose and ruin the drill sooner or later.

Post pics of what you get! Machine porn is good! :twothumbs


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## precisionworks

*Re: Time to get a mill, learning this complicated world, help appreciated!*

A $1300 budget for the machine will buy most larger mill/drills, with R-8 spindle. Since Bridgeport (and all Bpt clones) use R-8, there's an unlimited supply of tooling on eBay.

Milling, especially side milling, imposes gawdawful forces on the spindle & spindle bearings. No problem today, as plastics are the material of choice. But next month or next year you may want to cut aluminum, brass, steel, Ti, etc. Get the biggest spindle that's available, held in the most massive head, to resist those forces & help control chatter.

The Enco Model #308-0474 is currently on sale for $1398.95, plus freight cost. That's a little more than your budget, but you'll never regret spending the extra few dollars. That model has the 2 hp, made in USA motor, and shipping weight is over 700#. The bare machine weighs a little over 600#. It will do anything that will fit under the spindle.

http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INSRIT?PMAKA=308-0474&PMPXNO=12156014&PARTPG=INLMK32

On the RT, the best source is eBay. A 8"-9" size is perfect for this machine. Mine is a Troyke, which is built like a bank vault, but Yuasa is another good brand. If you move on to milling steel or aluminum, you'll want the most sturdy RT that's within budget - either Troyke or Yuasa won't let you down.

Here's a nice looking 8" Yuasa: http://cgi.ebay.com/YUASA-8-HORIZON...ryZ41943QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

And a 9" Troyke: http://cgi.ebay.com/TROYKE-HORIZONT...ryZ41943QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

In mill work, even more so than lathe work, *Size Does Matter*


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## mdocod

*Re: Time to get a mill, learning this complicated world, help appreciated!*

Hi precisionworks,

Interesting idea there with the heavier machine...

I've been lead to believe, that a dovetail style column is a desired feature, and while these machines I am looking at may be smaller, they may actually have better precision than many of the cylindrical column machines in higher weight classes. Would this be an accurate assessment? anyone care to comment? Are there CNC conversions available for those bridgeport clones? I would like this option available for the long term. I guess the other question is, Is the extra HP needed? IIRC my drill is rated 3/4HP, and honestly, I can't imagine having a "power" problem with it. It'll break and crash things and slip belts under tension before the motor ever gets bogged down. I'm assuming the only time 2HP would actually ever be utilized is maybe while using a massive face mill at high RPM and just hogging into something really hard in a big hurry. Seems to me, that one can always gear down and reduce feed rates to compensate for power problems, though it could be argued that this slows down production. So... I'm now faced with more to think about 

While the 670lb of the Bpt is good from a milling standpoint, The actual machine cost with lift-gate delivery would be close to $1600, plus the cost of a table for it doubles since the weight has basically doubled. All the compounding costs associated with all that extra weight are probably going to be a deal breaker (consumes my entire initial planned tooling budget), but I'll keep it in mind and get some more opinions and try to weigh my options... I've been thinking about ways to move something that heavy and believe I have a few tricks (use brain not back!) that should work, especially with the assistance of my step-father, who has a pool/spa business and I could always barrow his spa dolly to wheel it to the garage. (we've moved a number of 700-900lb spas just the 2 of us before, so it's doable). 

I did some calling around today, and have found that my best deal to have an X3 delivered with lift gate service comes to a grand total of $1121.50. Almost $200 under my machine budget, which leaves me more for tooling... This is really looking like the way to go...

Eric


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## StrikerDown

*Re: Time to get a mill, learning this complicated world, help appreciated!*

When I was looking for a gun safe I thought a 10 gun model would be fine. I asked around on he gun forums for info and someone mentioned that I should buy the largest heaviest safe I could afford. I found a 20 gun safe that was way too big for what I needed. Now some 30 guns later it is getting crowded! At least with a safe I can put another in another closet and keep growing the collection. 

The garage is only so big and with three cars in it every night there is only so much room for machines. I plan on getting the biggest machine I can afford even if it is much larger that I anticipate because I know as soon as I start making things I will want to make bigger things and will need a bigger machine and I certainly do not want to try to sell off one to make room for another. Going up a size or two is usually much cheaper in the long run and running into that job you can't do won't happen nearly so often.

With a big mill you will be able to mill steel with less effort and frustration than you have milling plastic on your drill press, and aluminum will be like butter.


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## wquiles

*Re: Time to get a mill, learning this complicated world, help appreciated!*



mdocod said:


> I did some calling around today, and have found that my best deal to have an X3 delivered with lift gate service comes to a grand total of $1121.50. Almost $200 under my machine budget, which leaves me more for tooling... This is really looking like the way to go...
> 
> Eric



Please let me know who has the best price on the X3 - as I said above, that is still one of my upgrade paths ... 

Will


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## precisionworks

*Re: Time to get a mill, learning this complicated world, help appreciated!*



> a dovetail style column is a desired feature ... they may actually have better precision than many of the cylindrical column machines in higher weight classes.



The dovetail column keeps the head in registration with the table, which allows raising the head to mount a taller tool like a boring head or tapping head. The dovetail column is no more (and no less) accurate than a round column. A round column has the advantage that the head can swing 90° left or right of center, a feature that I've used from time to time when a tall part needs to hang off the front or back of the table (imagine drilling & tapping the end of a 4" diameter solid rod that's too long for the lathe).

To clarify the type of machine I'm talking about, a *mill/drill* looks like this (female optional but highly recommended)







A *Bridgeport*, or Bpt clone, is far heavier & larger:






The latter is properly called a knee mill, as the XY table rests on a knee which gives Z axis (vertical) movement. The knee is guided up & down by a dovetail, so the table stays in registration with the head. If you look closely at the head, you'll see it has the ability to tilt forward or backward (nod), as well as rotate left & right. If you have the room & the $$$, they're a nice machine. More daylight under the tool than a mill/drill, more mass, but the same material removal rate as a mill/drill.


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## jbroni

*Re: Time to get a mill, learning this complicated world, help appreciated!*

Will, 
Are you really looking to sell your X2? If so, how much and what all would come with it? You can email me at [email protected] (take out the _nospam)
Thanks
Steve


wquiles said:


> Eric,
> 
> First, I know it is "your" money, but I am happy for you - having a mini-mill has been AWESOME for my small "shop"
> 
> I have the X2 mini-mill, and for the projects that I use it, specially in plastic and Al, it is more than adequate. You can see mine here, along with a few of the mods that I have done already:
> https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/152767
> 
> The pictures are in this post:
> https://www.candlepowerforums.com/posts/1902499&postcount=30
> 
> I am in fact ready to sell it and get a larger one as I am starting to cut steel more often, and I need more HP for that. I am looking at either the X3 so that I can do a full CNC setup, or buy something even larger like that Brian (*MirageMan*) just bought - still trying to decide which way to go. *If you are interested in my upgraded X2, let me know - I will make you a smoking deal*
> 
> What I am trying to say: the X2 is a good way to get started on something that does not take much space, but if you can go ahead and sprint for the X3, when go for it
> 
> Will


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## gadget_lover

*Re: Time to get a mill, learning this complicated world, help appreciated!*

Oh Goody. A chance to throw in my three cents.

First.... HP: while logic says you can gear down to take bigger cuts, the reality is that certain speeds are required to cut certain types of metal. Go way too slow and you end up smearing metal instead of cutting it. So more HP = ability to use bigger tools at appropriate speeds.

Second; R8 VS Morse Taper (aka MT); Both work the same way. The MT3 has more surface area that makes contact with the spindle than the R8 does. Both require a drawbar. Both require a light tap to remove from the spindle. 

What you will generally buy that fits straight into your spindle are fly cutters, collets and end mill holders. Most everything else has an arbor that fits your spindle on one end and a taper or threaded stub on the other for the tool. The same tool fits both R8 and MT arbors. Those that don't use an arbor use a straight shank that fits in a collet.

I find MT collets have more contact surface area inside, so they seem to hold a little better. 

Either will work for you.

Bonus: if your lathe uses MT3 then you can use the same collets there.

Third: Height: Z: table to spindle:... When you chose a mill, keep track of the max table to spindle height. Then subtract an inch or 2 (or more) for your tool. Only then should you look at a rotary table, vise, etc. If you have 10 inches of Z, like the one in your link to tools now, and subtract 6 for a table and 3 for an end mill holder and end mill, then you can only mill a piece 1 inch high. So pick a rotary table that leaves room for the parts and tooling, yet leaves enough area to clamp things.

Precisionwork's mill/drill has 18 inches of Z. 


Good luck and welcome to the club.

Daniel


----------



## precisionworks

*Re: Time to get a mill, learning this complicated world, help appreciated!*



> So more HP = ability to use bigger tools at appropriate speeds.


+1

I totally agree, Daniel. With electric motors, hp & torque are in direct proportion. If you figure 3.0 Lb-Ft per hp, my mill/drill has 6.0 Lb-Ft at the tool when running 1:1 (motor speed at 1725 rpm, spindle at 1725 rpm). When using either gear reduction, or step pulley reduction, torque is multiplied by the reduction factor. Running at 172 rpm, 60 Lb-Ft are available at the tool.

Drag racers say that there's no substitute for cubic inches ... in machining, there's no substitute for hp & torque.



> Precisionwork's mill/drill has 18 inches of Z


That's exactly right, and it's enough for most jobs. It can get tricky when there's a tall fixture on the table, and extended tooling in the spindle. A few of my end mills have shortened shanks, in order to push them further up into the collet to clear the work.


----------



## gadget_lover

*Re: Time to get a mill, learning this complicated world, help appreciated!*

You will probably be very happy with the X3 or the mill/drill. You would probably even be happy with the X2 for the first 6 months or so.

There are things you can do to maximize the working envelope of a smaller machine. 

You can get low profile vises, rotary tables and clamping sets. To go with my micro mill I have a 4 inch rotary table that is only 2 inches tall. I have a "drill press vise" that is only 3/4 of an inch high if I need it. My big mill has a 54 pound vise that is about 4 inches high. It (the big mill) has 15 inches of Z.

With a mill/drill (and many other mills) you can rotate the head to reach parts that are clamped to the side of the table. That requires custom jigs to hold the work, but that is part of the fun.

You can design your parts to clamp directly to the table using holes through the part.

Work holding is almost 1/2 of the trick to machining.

Daniel


----------



## Mirage_Man

*Re: Time to get a mill, learning this complicated world, help appreciated!*

Barry, I just have to ask why you would recommend the Enco model @ $300 more than the Rong Fu I just got? Especially since it doesn't even come with a stand at that price?

BTW Eric, my RF31 (made in Taiwan) _with_ stand was $1335 delivered to my work. That was of course with the 10% Enco was offering last week. It would have been another $70 for lift gate service to the house.


----------



## LuxLuthor

*Re: Time to get a mill, learning this complicated world, help appreciated!*

Eric, LOL...you have the disease bad! 

Seriously, I know how much you love doing all this, so it's cool to see all the contributions to others, and steps you have taken. I know nothing about milling, but this does seem a perfect fit for you! Good Luck buddy!


----------



## mdocod

*Re: Time to get a mill, learning this complicated world, help appreciated!*

As I learn more and read through responses the decision gets more complicated, I now understand the ER collet system, and how to set something like that up on a MT3 arbor adapter of sorts. I can see now why THAT system is desirable, theoretically, it would have less run-out with the shallower long morse taper producing a more true center. But a decent ER32 or ER40 system would get very expensive. Looks like a basic set runs $500, an R8 collet set is like $80 by comparison. The price difference alone there may make the decision for me, as it looks like I can have a lot more capability with the R8 for less cost. 

---

As you all read about these machines, don't trust any of the links! Most resellers misrepresent these machines and simply do not know what's what. The only known-good specifications for these machines is the PDFs from grizzly. The X3 has 14-3/4" Z from spindle to table, not 10", that makes a pretty massive difference right there. 

---

Will,
ToolsNow has the lowest listed price on an X3, but I spoke with a person there about shipping one out, and she admitted they don't have a very good freight contract, the total delivery cost with a lift gate would be almost $400 from them, so that brings the delivered price to ~$1300, Grizzly had much better shipping rates, total with lift gate came to $1121.50, and I called harbor freight, and it sounded like they do not offer a lift gate quote, but that I could negotiate for that option with their freight company (the people I spoke with at HB were not as helpful and straightforward as the folks at toolsnow and grizzly). They did not have any in stock (called both a regular store here and the online "warehouse"), they aren't expecting any more until late february. So It looks like grizzly is the best option at this time, but I'll be keeping my eyes out for the next few days. You may want to call toolsnow though, as the shipping cost may be different for different parts of the country.

---

The more I think about the differences between the X3, and a larger drill/mill setup, the harder this decision gets. The X3 has a lot of features I really like just looking at it. Looks like the kind of manual machine that I could not only do reasonably precise work on, but do it quickly. The big 2HP mill/drills don't look like they are going to be as friendly in use, but I could be wrong about that. The X3 has the Z axes hand knob right up front, and variable speed at the spin of a nob or quick switch of a gear box... But now I am concerned about whether the smaller DC motor will have enough torque at lower speeds. If I understand correctly, it does use a "speed control" or sorts, not just a "dimmer switch" on a motor, so it will ramp up the power to the motor to try to maintain constant motor speed as the load varies (right?)... but I do wonder how well that works in practice... As has been mentioned, the 2HP machine will run the motor full speed at all times, with the motor truly geared down for the low speed work, which translates to basically unstoppable grunt. 

---

Here's something interesting, I was looking at this mill here:
http://www.grizzly.com/products/Mill-Drill/G3358
very similar to the mill/drills being suggested to be for their higher weight/rigidity....

and then found what APPEARS to be the same one, at HB, with a 1.5Hp motor instead of 2HP, all other major specs and features and sizes appear to be the same. for just $850!!!
http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=33686

I just called down there, and it can be special ordered in and I can go pick it up, no shipping cost to me. They can drop it on a trailer for me with their fork lift no charge... I haven't decided that this is the way to go yet, but I am considering it. The X3 still beckons for various reasons... Hmmmm... 

Need to sleep a few more night on this 

Eric


----------



## precisionworks

*Re: Time to get a mill, learning this complicated world, help appreciated!*



> Barry, I just have to ask why you would recommend the Enco model @ $300 more than the Rong Fu I just got?


I believe the only way to explain that is that too many brain cells have been sacrificed 

No offense meant, I could not find the Rong Fu on sale & thought the Enco was less expensive.


----------



## wquiles

*Re: Time to get a mill, learning this complicated world, help appreciated!*

I did not know that HF was now carrying CNC setups:
http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=66051

http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/Displayitem.taf?itemnumber=66052


Will


----------



## precisionworks

*Re: Time to get a mill, learning this complicated world, help appreciated!*



> a decent ER32 or ER40 system would get very expensive


ER-40 collet sets (including R-8 chuck) start at $200.

http://cgi.ebay.com/15-R8-1-8-1-ER-...-HARDENED_W0QQitemZ330148320537QQcmdZViewItem

That $200 buys a set in 1/16" increments (you can fill in the 1/32" sizes later if needed). These are Asian imports, with "standard" accuracy, meaning the collet OD to collet bore will vary no more than *.0004"*. 

For $425, Penn Tool has the 15 piece Bison set, guaranteed to *.0003"*. They are twice the money of the Asian set, and that buys collets that are beautifully finished, plus a collet chuck that's smooth as warm butter. The wooden box is finger jointed, which is cool if you like fine woodworking.

The next step up is to a runout of *.0002"*, which is the guarantee from Royal Products. The company is best known for its line of lathe live centers, and I imagine their collets are just as superbly made. $375 for 15 collets, plus around $125 for the chuck, roughly $500 ... and you have to build your own case.

http://www.royalprod.com/product.cfm?catID=6&ID=40



> an R8 collet set is like $80 by comparison


Which proves that you get exactly what you pay for

The very best super-precision R-8 collets are guaranteed to *.0005"*. None of the imported collets even bother to advertise accuracy, so you have to figure that it's at least *.0006"* and perhaps greater. That's worse than the cheapest Asian ER collet. Figure that each .0001" improvement in concentricity provides 10% greater tool life, and it's easy to see that the 'less expensive' R-8 will actually be more expensive because of tooling replacement & sharpening. If you run only HSS tooling, you may never notice a difference - HSS is relatively soft, so you can't easily chip an edge with an out of round holder. However, if you run lots of solid carbide tooling, it quickly becomes an issue. Carbide tooling on a mill requires just as rigid a setup as carbide inserts on a lathe.

The mechanical design of the R-8 collet seems to be _How can something be designed to just barely do the job?_ The collet is split into three sections, so each section is responsible for 33.3% of the grip on the tool shank. ER collets have 16 slots, so the compression load is spread evenly over 16 contact points.

The angle of the R-8 cone is 16.85°, almost identical to the 16.00° of the ER. The big difference is that the ER has a reverse angle nose which allows roughly double the clamping force of R-8.

The other big advantage of the ER is the ability to hold a twist drill (on either the shank or on the flutes), or a threading tap, or an end mill. On many jobs, the collet chuck never leaves the spindle, as there's no need to swap in the drill chuck - which is a real time saver.

A good read here:
http://www.cutting-tool.americanmachinist.com/guiEdits/Content/bdeee6/bdeee6_1.aspx


----------



## wquiles

*Re: Time to get a mill, learning this complicated world, help appreciated!*

Not a great price vs. features, but I really like this Grizzly unit:
http://www.grizzly.com/products/9-x-32-Gear-Head-Mill-Drill-with-Stand/G0484

Will


----------



## Oznog

*Re: Time to get a mill, learning this complicated world, help appreciated!*



wquiles said:


> I did not know that HF was now carrying CNC setups:
> http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=66051
> 
> http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/Displayitem.taf?itemnumber=66052
> 
> Will


Holy sheet! Neither was I!

Neato...

But HarborFreight.com does charge for shipping, they won't just deliver it for free to their nearest branch... hmmm, actually, it looks like it comes to... $11.99 base shipping + $75 for being "overweight" >75lbs !!! Well that's an _amazingly_ low shipping price, isn't it? Well it may have factored part of that into the price, no way to tell without another supplier for the reference cost for it.


----------



## wquiles

*Re: Time to get a mill, learning this complicated world, help appreciated!*



mdocod said:


> As I learn more and read through responses the decision gets more complicated, I now understand the ER collet system, and how to set something like that up on a MT3 arbor adapter of sorts. I can see now why THAT system is desirable, theoretically, it would have less run-out with the shallower long morse taper producing a more true center. But a decent ER32 or ER40 system would get very expensive. Looks like a basic set runs $500, an R8 collet set is like $80 by comparison. The price difference alone there may make the decision for me, as it looks like I can have a lot more capability with the R8 for less cost.
> 
> ---
> 
> As you all read about these machines, don't trust any of the links! Most resellers misrepresent these machines and simply do not know what's what. The only known-good specifications for these machines is the PDFs from grizzly. The X3 has 14-3/4" Z from spindle to table, not 10", that makes a pretty massive difference right there.
> 
> ---
> 
> Will,
> ToolsNow has the lowest listed price on an X3, but I spoke with a person there about shipping one out, and she admitted they don't have a very good freight contract, the total delivery cost with a lift gate would be almost $400 from them, so that brings the delivered price to ~$1300, Grizzly had much better shipping rates, total with lift gate came to $1121.50, and I called harbor freight, and it sounded like they do not offer a lift gate quote, but that I could negotiate for that option with their freight company (the people I spoke with at HB were not as helpful and straightforward as the folks at toolsnow and grizzly). They did not have any in stock (called both a regular store here and the online "warehouse"), they aren't expecting any more until late february. So It looks like grizzly is the best option at this time, but I'll be keeping my eyes out for the next few days. You may want to call toolsnow though, as the shipping cost may be different for different parts of the country.
> 
> ---
> 
> The more I think about the differences between the X3, and a larger drill/mill setup, the harder this decision gets. The X3 has a lot of features I really like just looking at it. Looks like the kind of manual machine that I could not only do reasonably precise work on, but do it quickly. The big 2HP mill/drills don't look like they are going to be as friendly in use, but I could be wrong about that. The X3 has the Z axes hand knob right up front, and variable speed at the spin of a nob or quick switch of a gear box... But now I am concerned about whether the smaller DC motor will have enough torque at lower speeds. If I understand correctly, it does use a "speed control" or sorts, not just a "dimmer switch" on a motor, so it will ramp up the power to the motor to try to maintain constant motor speed as the load varies (right?)... but I do wonder how well that works in practice... As has been mentioned, the 2HP machine will run the motor full speed at all times, with the motor truly geared down for the low speed work, which translates to basically unstoppable grunt.
> 
> ---
> 
> Here's something interesting, I was looking at this mill here:
> http://www.grizzly.com/products/Mill-Drill/G3358
> very similar to the mill/drills being suggested to be for their higher weight/rigidity....
> 
> and then found what APPEARS to be the same one, at HB, with a 1.5Hp motor instead of 2HP, all other major specs and features and sizes appear to be the same. for just $850!!!
> http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=33686
> 
> I just called down there, and it can be special ordered in and I can go pick it up, no shipping cost to me. They can drop it on a trailer for me with their fork lift no charge... I haven't decided that this is the way to go yet, but I am considering it. The X3 still beckons for various reasons... Hmmmm...
> 
> Need to sleep a few more night on this
> 
> Eric




Eric,

Looking at your own research, and looking at the size/weight, and HP vs. DOLLAR, I am no longer interested in the X3 - I would definitely buy something more like HF unit you listed, and if not that one, again, something like what Brian just got on special  I have to go to my local HF store to see if they happen to have the unit you listed - it would be good to "kick the tires" on the display unit to see how it is built/finished :devil:

The other thing to consider is that although not always, HF gets the lowest grade of a machine, so it might be worth buying a nicer unit from a more reputable vendor - like Barry says, you get what you pay for!

Will


----------



## Mirage_Man

*Re: Time to get a mill, learning this complicated world, help appreciated!*



precisionworks said:


> I believe the only way to explain that is that too many brain cells have been sacrificed
> 
> No offense meant, I could not find the Rong Fu on sale & thought the Enco was less expensive.



No offense taken. I was just wondering if the Enco was a better machine. It was always my understanding that the true Rong Fu made in Taiwan was more desirable than the Chinese counterparts. That said my new lathe was made in main land China and I couldn't be happier with it. I guess it boils down to which factory the machines are made in more than which country.


----------



## mdocod

*Re: Time to get a mill, learning this complicated world, help appreciated!*

Will,

The KX1 at harbor-freight is based on (roughly) the X1 micro-mill platform, and IMO, is not worth the $3000 when you can get a Taig setup for CNC for probably similar or less cost, and the Taig would probably be built better. 

The KX3 is based on the X3/SX3 platform so it shares all the same maximum capabilities as the X3 as far as rigidity is concerned, but includes a much quieter belt drive head unit and higher RPM motor. I did some reading about those machines and read a number of reviews and overall things sound pretty good. They work great with the MachX software, which is very affordable. The KX3 also comes with a "1 shot" oiling system that oils the entire machine all at once, you just fill a reservoir on the machine. The $5000 price tag may actually be worth it here as it really does have a lot of nice stuff going for it. Oh... it includes a 4th axis driver that isn't used, so it's easy and quick to grab a stepper motor powered rotary table and get right to doing complex stuff.

If you are interested in a machine in this class, also check out Syil America, they have a line of machines based on the Sieg platform setup for CNC. Their new "X4" is right around that $5000 mark and also *appears* to be based on the X3 platform, just minor differences in features and options compared with the KX3.

I won't lie, as a result of all of my researching, and learning about this class of CNC machine, I am VERY tempted to take out a personal loan and get one of these pre-configured X3 based CNC machines. I could probably crank out a lot of work on one and save myself a lot of headache in the long term, but it would be a huge initial investment and would probably cause about a month of down-time just learning how to use the machine. It's a tough call at this point. 

I too am struggling with the HP/lb per dollar aspect, but here's what I'm noticing in regards to the X3 series:
1. While they aren't perfect from the factory, nearly every single person who owns one, who has posted anything on the net about it, feels they got a lot of machine for the dollar and has been able to "fix" minor annoyances with easy modifications. Many of the simple little mods get made right on the machine, for the machine. 
2. The following for these machines is surprising, a lot of discussion around the net about them. This should not be interpreted as "go with the crowd" but is worth considering. Then again... consumers don't have any remarkable track record for steering trends in the best of directions, so add much salt on this consideration.... ehhe. 
3. There isn't just one, but several CNCed options out there for many of the Sieg X series mills. If the machine is good enough for several companies to have the idea to make CNC versions of it, (or offer "kits") then that alone, in my mind, speaks volumes about the machines. They must be at least up to some level of "par" before you go racking up a $3500 premium onto a machine to make it CNC. 

I need to do some more reading about the more traditional mill/drills and see what sort of opinions there are out there about them. I'll try to report back when I know more about this, especially concerning that $850 HB unit, which seems too good to be true.... ehhe

I'll also try to get a peek at a floor model next time I am down there... maybe I'll make a special trip this next week for it 

-

Too bad that grizzly you linked to there can't be run on 110V.. hehe. It would probably be a more popular machine if people didn't have to add a 220 service to the intended location. 


-----------------------------------


Precisionworks,

Thank You!
That is very helpful, but I am left with one question... Does using an R8 shank to ER40 collet adapter wind up negating the gains since it's still on an R8 spindle/shank? ..Or is an R8 shank going to be pretty dead on by itself, and it's the collets where most of the run-out is generated anyways (more for R8 collets, as you were saying)...

Since I plan on doing a LOT of work in plastics, I'm not sure what kind of gains I can actually realize going with the more expensive ER40 system, but I will keep this in mind.

----------------

Eric


----------



## precisionworks

*Re: Time to get a mill, learning this complicated world, help appreciated!*



> it's the collets where most of the run-out is generated


That's exactly the case. If you set up a tenth-reading dial test indicator, and touch off the internal R-8 spindle nose, most newer machines show well under one tenth. It's a good test to run on any new or used mill (especially a well worn mill) as running with a too loose drawbar can cause fretting between the internal taper & a tool.

If you never machine metals, you may never get great benefit from ER collets. If you start to machine even 'soft' aluminum, especially in side milling, you'll find that the largest size end mill will do the best job. My machine often runs a 1" solid carbide end mill, as it allows almost no deflectioin when the end of the cutter is 2" to 3" below the collet. 



> can't be run on 110V. It would probably be a more popular machine if people didn't have to add a 220 service


The limiting factor on 120v service is the 20a breaker rating, which is just enough to start a 1.5 hp motor (about 15a running under full load). Some 120v machines advertise more than 1.5 hp, but physics don't allow that to happen. Every motor that produces an actual 2 hp or more will need a 240v circuit.


----------



## mdocod

*Re: Time to get a mill, learning this complicated world, help appreciated!*



precisionworks said:


> That's exactly the case. If you set up a tenth-reading dial test indicator, and touch off the internal R-8 spindle nose, most newer machines show well under one tenth. It's a good test to run on any new or used mill (especially a well worn mill) as running with a too loose drawbar can cause fretting between the internal taper & a tool.
> 
> If you never machine metals, you may never get great benefit from ER collets. If you start to machine even 'soft' aluminum, especially in side milling, you'll find that the largest size end mill will do the best job. My machine often runs a 1" solid carbide end mill, as it allows almost no deflectioin when the end of the cutter is 2" to 3" below the collet.



Good to know, thanks again!



> The limiting factor on 120v service is the 20a breaker rating, which is just enough to start a 1.5 hp motor (about 15a running under full load). Some 120v machines advertise more than 1.5 hp, but physics don't allow that to happen. Every motor that produces an actual 2 hp or more will need a 240v circuit.



I've always been under the impression that HP ratings on electric tools are much like flashlight lumen ratings and should be taken with a grain of salt until proven otherwise. My calculator, and any other unit converting calculator says that 1.5HP=~1120W, which translates loosely to ~10 amps on a 110/120 service. I realize this is a power consumption and not a power output rating as assuming output would entail a perfect 100% conversion efficiency... but more often than not, this is the method used to slap HP ratings on machines...

Do you think that that particular 220V grizzly happens to be a true 1.5HP output rating, while other grizzly machines rated 2HP that run on 120V are rated based on consumption? Sure does add a complication to comparing the machines, if some of them are actual HP output ratings and others are HP consumption ratings. 1.5HP becomes > 2HP in that scenario.

Eric


----------



## 65535

*Re: Time to get a mill, learning this complicated world, help appreciated!*

My rule of thumb is OEM type stuff using chinese motors are rated by consumption. As is the case most are over rated. 

Motor companies like Baldor and Leeson make well labeled motors that are properly rated.


----------



## precisionworks

*Re: Time to get a mill, learning this complicated world, help appreciated!*



> 1.5HP=~1120W, which translates loosely to ~10 amps on a 110/120 service.


+1

For *induction* motors on single phase service, 10 amps per hp @ 120v, 5 amps per hp on 240v is a good number. Easy to remember too.



> other grizzly machines rated 2HP that run on 120V are rated based on consumption?


Not certain without looking at the specific machine specs. But a number of 120v machines use '*universal*' motors' (think shop vac, woodworking router, circular saw, etc.). Universal motors are also used in electric drills, both corded & cordless, as well as many other portable tools. All these tools see intermittent use, need high starting torque, and require a compact motor design, so the universal motor is (almost) perfect. There are a few design problems ... carbon brushes require inspection & replacement, bearings tend to be small, rotor rpm is usually high, motor life is often just a few hundred hours.



> HP ratings on electric tools are much like flashlight lumen ratings


Yes they are, more so one some tools than others. Here's a quote from Find Woodworking Magazine:

_So how can a 120v tool be rated any higher than 1.7 hp? What you are witnessing here is a rating game reflecting a tools peak power, not its continuous power. _

http://74.125.95.132/search?q=cache...nton.com/finewoodworking/FWNPDF/011175018.pdf

There's no free lunch in electric motors.


----------



## mdocod

*Re: Time to get a mill, learning this complicated world, help appreciated!*

hehe.. reminds me of the 8HP rated shop vacs... come to find out they were measuring a peak HP rating primarily achieved through the momentum of the motor spinning as it was drawn to a stop suddenly under a braking device, lol. 

----------

I think I'm pretty well set on the X3 from grizzly at this point. I'm sick of going round in circles in my head on this decision and every time I look at an alternative options I run into obstacles that drive me back to the X3. Seems to me that for the type of work I intend to do, the X3 will be a more productive machine for several reasons. The heavier mill/drills would undoubtedly work, but I can see being frustrated passing up the convenience of the Z axis control up front, amongst other things. 

-----------

Check this thing out: 

http://www.lathemaster.com/QUICK INDEXER.htm

Half the cost of a worm drive rotary table combined with a lathe chuck, half the confusion of compatibility and backing plates, and probably 4X the usefulness for 99% of what I have planned. No having to turn a hand crank 24 times before each cut, quick indexing in 15 degree increments covers my needs and will greatly improve production speed. I can't find a better way to spend $140 to achieve this capability at this time. 

-----------

I'm going to pick up that quick indexer, a 52 piece clamping kit (found for $40 at littlemachineshop), an edge finder($6), a parallel set($27 at lathemaster), a 4" kurt style vice(on sale at enco for $70), and an 11 piece R8 collet set ($37 at enco)... and a few other things... I think it's all coming together.

I'm now working on figuring out the best way to have a faster tool change option to go back and forth from end-mills to odd-ball size drill bits in certain circumstances, fast enough that I am leaving the work piece clamped up so that I don't loose indexing, but not astronomically expensive. Seems like the best way to do this is to mount up a drill chuck on a straight shank arbor that shares the same diameter as the tooling I'm already going to be using in that collet, so as not to need to remove the entire collet to change the tool, just loosen the draw bar, give it a whack, remove end-mill, slide the arbor with chuck into place, tighten draw bar... eh?

The more you learn, the more you realize you do not know! BUT: I feel like I am starting to approach part of the hill where the taper isn't so steep on this learning curve 

Eric


----------



## mdocod

*Re: Time to get a mill, learning this complicated world, help appreciated!*

Changed my mind again, after spending some time looking carefully at the product manuals, and the "exploded" view with part listings of a few machines, I think I want the SX3, not the X3. The extra $400 buys a belt drive rather than gear drive, which is a lot quieter and more reliable from what I gather, not to mention, easy to modify for higher RPMs!!!, a DRO on the quill, digital RPM readout, more HP, tapping feature, an extra axis (head rotates), fine feed on the quill, and I've read that the head unit on the SX3 is all around a cleaner build that's more rigid than the standard X3....

[edit in]
I just ordered one 

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## wquiles

*Re: Time to get a mill, learning this complicated world, help appreciated!*



mdocod said:


> Changed my mind again, after spending some time looking carefully at the product manuals, and the "exploded" view with part listings of a few machines, I think I want the SX3, not the X3. The extra $400 buys a belt drive rather than gear drive, which is a lot quieter and more reliable from what I gather, not to mention, easy to modify for higher RPMs!!!, a DRO on the quill, digital RPM readout, more HP, tapping feature, an extra axis (head rotates), fine feed on the quill, and I've read that the head unit on the SX3 is all around a much cleaner build that's more rigid than the standard X3....
> 
> [edit in]
> I just ordered one
> 
> !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



First, congrats!

Second: Do you have a linkie to the model you ordered?

Will


----------



## mdocod

*Re: Time to get a mill, learning this complicated world, help appreciated!*

Hi Will!

Here's a link:

http://www.grizzly.com/products/6-x-21-Mill-Drill/G0619

I decided I could go slightly over budget on the machine after finding a few less expensive options to get rolling on the tooling. The quick indexter from lathemaster actually saved be about $150 over the cost of a rotary table which offsets most of the difference in machine cost...

In this price range, I have to agree that it is a VERY tough call which way to go as far as a standard mill/drill with a big motor and more weight, or something like this. Honestly, After literally spending the last week and a half completely immersed in reading and comparing and trying to gather as much information as possible, there is no definite answer and it really just depends on what the machine will be used for. After considering all the tradeoffs, I came to the conclusion that this machine best suits my needs as far as what is available to me in a practical sense. If I lived somewhere where used machinery was being sold in town all the time (industrial coastal areas etc), then the final decision very likely would have been different, as from what I have read, very large machines often sell for a few hundred dollars used, the shops sell them cheap as incentive for someone to come along and pick up the tab on just moving them out of the way quickly.... 

Eric

PS: One of the things I kept reading over and over on machining forums everywhere, is that, the cylindrical column mill/drills can be a pain in the butt. Having the ability to rotate the head around is rarely a feature, and more often just creates problems. Most of the people who have owned them end up using them as glorified drill presses. Since the only way to change the position of the head on most of them, is to loosen their "clamp" on the column via a couple bolts or whatever, and then adjust, each time this is done, the spindle position in the X/Y axis is lost. (unless I am mis-understanding something about these machines, but this is what has been described). I asked some sales reps at grizzly about how frequently they sell these machines, and each one I talked to said that the X3 and SX3 outsell the similarly priced mill/drills 4 or 5 to 1.


----------



## Anglepoise

*Re: Time to get a mill, learning this complicated world, help appreciated!*



mdocod said:


> H The quick indexter from lathemaster actually saved be about $150 over the cost of a rotary table which offsets most of the difference in machine cost...




For the sort of work we do, that quick indexer from lathemaster has got to be the #1 accessory to buy.


----------



## Brlux

*Re: Time to get a mill, learning this complicated world, help appreciated!*

I have the Grizzly SX3 and absolutely love it, I don't think you will regret your decision.


----------



## wquiles

*Re: Time to get a mill, learning this complicated world, help appreciated!*



mdocod said:


> Hi Will!
> 
> Here's a link:
> 
> http://www.grizzly.com/products/6-x-21-Mill-Drill/G0619



Congratulations - looks like a really nice machine :twothumbs

When is the expected delivery date? Tomorrow afternoon? :devil:

Will


----------



## 65535

*Re: Time to get a mill, learning this complicated world, help appreciated!*

I generally have some reservations from Grizzly. (mostly the ugly green color) But that dovetail Z axis imho is a must have for a good milling machine.


----------



## StrikerDown

*Re: Time to get a mill, learning this complicated world, help appreciated!*



mdocod said:


> Hi Will!
> 
> Here's a link:
> 
> http://www.grizzly.com/products/6-x-21-Mill-Drill/G0619



Dude, Congrats, That Mill/Drill is high on my lust list. :twothumbs


----------



## PEU

*Re: Time to get a mill, learning this complicated world, help appreciated!*

Very nice machine the SX3, I have the cnc version of it, more than appropiate for the stuff we like to do 

Now tooling time!

Congrats!


Pablo


----------



## precisionworks

*Re: Time to get a mill, learning this complicated world... (MILL PURCHASED!)*

Glad to hear that you have a mill coming:thumbsup:



> cylindrical column mill/drills can be a pain in the butt. Having the ability to rotate the head around is rarely a feature, and more often just creates problems. Most of the people who have owned them end up using them as glorified drill presses. Since the only way to change the position of the head on most of them, is to loosen their "clamp" on the column via a couple bolts or whatever, and then adjust, each time this is done, the spindle position in the X/Y axis is lost.



I've run my Enco round column M/D for six years or so, and made piles of chips in aluminum, mild & hardened steels, stainless, Ti, and some plastics. The round column is easy to work with, even if the head needs to be raised or lowered during an op. In fact, the procedure is no different than starting a part on the mill, moving it to the lathe for threading, and relocating it back to 0-0 on the mill. 

Say you've just drilled a large hole & need to raise the spindle to install a tapping head. To center the tapping head over the hole, mount a DTI (dial test indicator) using an Indicol holder, touch off the edge of the hole, rotate the spindle & adjust X&Y until the DTI shows an equal reading all the way around the hole. The head position will be within .001 of where it was before raising it. Even a large knee mill, like a Bridgeport, will rarely hold .001 when raising the knee, so the part will be close but still need recentering to be correct. Raising & lowering a dovetail column head will keep the head close to index, and yours may be perfect, but that rarely happens.


----------



## Alan B

*Re: Time to get a mill, learning this complicated world... (MILL PURCHASED!)*

Just catching up with this good thread.

My lathe/mill came from Grizzly (G0516) and aside from terrible initial lathe motor problems I've been quite happy with it. The mill is getting small though, and the lathe table is not really designed to handle the mill forces, so it is a bit suboptimal there.

What I wanted to mention here was that I had them hold the boxes at the Fedex freight yard for customer pickup, and I took my utility trailer down there. They forked the boxes over to my trailer and I backed it incredibly close to where it needed to be in the garage, up a driveway that a lift truck would not like. And I saved any liftgate fees as well.

Probably too late for Eric, but in case anyone else benefits from this technique, it worked extremely well for me. I won't tell you about the three person lifting of the lathe from the trailer onto the bench, that I would not recommend, but the trailer worked beautifully.


----------



## mdocod

*Re: Time to get a mill, learning this complicated world... (MILL PURCHASED!)*

precisionworks,

DTI  check!

of course, with each response you make in this thread, you not only teach me one thing, but sprout about a dozen new ideas for how to use the various tooling common to machining, that I am still trying to get all familiar with. -Thank You!

I think that procedure would be pretty painless for prototyping and general use, not sure if it would get to be a pain during production or not. Depends on a lot of things. If the machine were equipped with DROs at least on the X and Y axis, then it would be really easy, but in my position, if I were compensating for a change in spindle position by moving the table, I'd also be loosing a tooling setup on the table that aligns with hand-wheel positions for simpler "counting" etc. Some day I'd like to afford a DRO setup for the machine to further simplify things, like eliminating all effects of lead-screw backlash completely, in the mean time, I'll be compensating for that on paper 

-------------------------------

Alan B,

I intend not to apply any lifting forces of greater than 40lbs myself, as I have a bad back, I am going to use various options that involved leverage to move this thing up on to the work bench, which I am in the process of building this weekend each day after work. Speaking of which... I need to get back out there and finish it up!

------------------------------

Will, 
Can't remember if I mentioned it, but lathemaster carries what appears to be the same mill that you were expressing interest in up higher in the thread, the 220V one, but the one that lathemaster carries can be wired for 220V or 110V.. Motor might not be as gutsy, who knows, but you'd have what appears to be all the same "frame" so to speak, which could be very useful. 


----------------------------


UPDATE:
Got a call today from the trucking company that is delivering it, I've scheduled delivery for tuesday of this coming week, not bad!. It could have been monday, but we are expecting snow sunday, and I've rather give it an extra day to thaw some, as this is NOT a road to bring an 18 wheeler down if slick!

I'll try to start snapping some picts as I progress here. 

Eric


----------



## mdocod

*Re: Time to get a mill, learning this complicated world... (MILL PURCHASED!)*

I'm just about finished with the bench to put this thing on now, just need to install 2 layers of 3/4" MDF on the top, and a layer for the shelf down below. I'm thinking I'll eventually set up the shelf below with some sort of pull-out multi-drawer system on one side, with lots of little "cubbies" for the storage of tooling and stuff. 

Here's some picture's of where I'm at... I *hope* this is tough enough to hold the mill. I think it'll be fine:


----------



## Brlux

*Re: Time to get a mill, learning this complicated world... (MILL PURCHASED!)*

I removed the table from mine to save weight and had 2 friends help me get it up on my bench, we were barely able to pull it off. Probably one of the fisrs things you are going to want to do is remove the chip guard, when using R8 collits and mill bits it gets in the way and you will probably break it off axaidently when moving the table. 

How long is your estimated waite time for delivery. Mine took about 4 months but they were out of stock when I placed my order and they kept rejecting their deliverys for quality controle reasons.


----------



## gadget_lover

*Re: Time to get a mill, learning this complicated world... (MILL PURCHASED!)*

Please do NOT take this as criticism, just some thoughts.

First, may it say it looks really nice? My carpentry never comes out looking that good. 

However: 
It looks like that bench is being built using my favorite fasteners, deck screws or their equivalent. I don't see any signs of dados, tennons, glue nor any support plates to reinforce the top's 2x4s that will support the MDF.

While deck screws are quite handy, I suspect that they are not going to be sufficient when you put an 800 LB mill on there. They may give over time as the wood shifts and shrinks.

This will leave the MDF supported most solidly at the 4 corners, and around the outside edges. That might be plenty, but I've heard of folks using similar construction who found the top bowing under the weight.

My concern is that if any part is not strong enough, you may find the mill on the floor some day. Worst case, it would happen while you are working with it. 

I could, of course, be all wet on this one. There must be someone here who can do a quick structural analysis and confirm that the bench will hold the desired weight using those materials.

Dan


----------



## will

*Re: Time to get a mill, learning this complicated world... (MILL PURCHASED!)*



mdocod said:


> I'm just about finished with the bench to put this thing on now, just need to install 2 layers of 3/4" MDF on the top, and a layer for the shelf down below.



I would stay away from MDF in any form. It can, and will, absorb moisture and swell up. Use plywood, If you want real strong plywood, get baltic birch plywood. One 3/4 inch layer is enough. Birch plywood comes in 5 x 5 sheets, very thin layers. this can be ordered at home depot, they don't stock it. for your purpose, regular plywood is fine...

+1 on the fasteners. each joint should be glued, where you have end grain, glue will not hold. you need some other connection. if you want a really strong top, look up 'torsion box' I built my workbench, with drawers, using this technique. super strong, dead flat, and it stays that way.


----------



## precisionworks

*Re: Time to get a mill, learning this complicated world... (MILL PURCHASED!)*



> I *hope* this is tough enough to hold the mill.


Using 4x4 legs, supporting about 400#, you should be fine. Are you going to remove the levelers from the mill base & install large levelers on each of the 4x4's? Enco sells the Mason Mounts, often on sale, and they do a nice job of sticking any machine to the floor. It wouldn't be hard to epoxy coupling nuts in the bottom of each leg to accept the mount stud.

http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INSRIT?PMAKA=325-6611&PMPXNO=5832297&PARTPG=INLMK32


McMaster PN 90264A221





You may also want to consider a chip pan, mounted between the mill & the stand. If you have a local fabrication shop, they can shear a piece of mild steel plate & weld a small lip around the edges. Something around 11 Ga (1/8") would be about right.

I do some wood working, and I would have done half blind dovetail construction using solid oak or solid walnut, with a fifteen 
coat French Polish finish Your stand should be more than strong enough just the way it's made. 



> If you want real strong plywood, get baltic birch plywood.


I use lots of Baltic Birch, and love it for jig & fixture building. But your original construction, using a two layer MDF top, will work well if you cover it with the steel plate mentioned above. As long as MDF edges are well sealed, and the material doesn't get wet, it lasts forever in a shop environment.


----------



## Mirage_Man

*Re: Time to get a mill, learning this complicated world... (MILL PURCHASED!)*

I've seen aluminum topped formica. That might make a good laminate for the table top as long as you cover the ends of the MDF with the mica or maybe some solid wood caps.


----------



## will

*Re: Time to get a mill, learning this complicated world... (MILL PURCHASED!)*



precisionworks said:


> But your original construction, using a two layer MDF top, will work well if you cover it with the steel plate mentioned above. As long as MDF edges are well sealed, and the material doesn't get wet, it lasts forever in a shop environment.



I live on Long Island, lots of water vapor in the air. MDF will even absorb moisture from the air. You are correct about sealing the edges, you have to maintain that protection. I have had pieces swell up around the edges, even after 2 coats of polyurathane. MDF is fine, in my opinion, in a completely dry environment. 

When the top is assembled to the frame, run a glue bead on the tops of the 2x4's. that will give the top a lot more strength than just screws.


----------



## mdocod

*Re: Time to get a mill, learning this complicated world... (MILL PURCHASED!)*

BrLux,

I've been contacted by the delivery company, and have arranged for delivery this tuesday  Less than a week from time of order, not bad at all!

----------------------

gadget lover,

Thank You for the carpentry complement... Mine usually doesn't come out looking very good either, but I took my time on this one and kept the cuts as close to accurate as possible, miter saw with laser guide helped a lot!

The Mill is only about 350lbs, plus some tooling and stuff might be over 400lbs all together eventually. If I were buying an 800lb mill, I would have made the table with all 2x6s or better instead. 

It *is* mostly 3" deck screws (I love em too!), but I have included 2 1/4"x5" lag bolts on each top corner going into the 4x4 posts. I must have stood there for 30 minutes last night staring at it, trying to decide if I want to include more support... 

A structural analysis sure would be nice.. I don't know much about load ratings and such for lumber. The size around the perimeter (and size of the top pieces to correspond) is 30" x 49" , the total hight after installing the top pieces will be 37.5" My method of "load testing" was to sit my ~150lb self up on one of the 2x4s, it held me firm, a little 2x2=4 and I figured it should hold at least 750lbs in it's current design without much trouble.... I could be wrong.... The simple fact that you have mild doubts, is enough to convince me... I'll just slap some more bracing and support on there and be 100% confident... 

---------------------------

Will,

Thanks for the ideas:
Glue? hmmm... How many screws buys me glue? hehe, Not sure if it's worth the hassle of backing off each piece individually to add glue to this... Be honest with me, do I really *need* glue?

I looked up torsion box and found references to building with MDF.... so HA! 

I already considered the water problem with MDF, and went through the following list to arrive at the MDF conclusion:

1. already have it
2. no splinters (usually)
3. relatively smooth flat work surface
4. no liquid cooling plans
5. already have it
6. dry climate here
7. could always be sealed with epoxy or something else down the line..? (wood sealer? perhaps?)
8. already have it...

hehe.... there's a trend in there eh?

Anyways, with that said, you're also expressing the need for *more* here in the bigger picture. I'm not much of a woodworker, so I'm not the type to include a lot of stuff like rabbet joints and alignment pins and super duper 9000 glue and rare canadian-indonesian oak birch blended wood for this type of project. (maybe when I have time to get back into building speaker cabinets I'll try to get more refined)

It's easy for someone like a flashlight enthusiast to say "you need this $450 flashlight for what you're doing..." At the end of the day, we can't be enthusiasts in every area, there's going to be a lot of grey area between what I can do for $40 in materials, and what a hardcore woodworker can do for $200 in materials as far as a bench here is concerned, the question is, is my $40 option adequate? Perhaps... hopefully...

I'll add more bracing to make sure! muhahaha


-----

Thanks guys,
Eric


----------



## will

*Re: Time to get a mill, learning this complicated world... (MILL PURCHASED!)*

The weight is going to be handled by the 4 corner legs. As to the top, all you need is one layer of, my choice, regular plywood. Running a bead of regular wood glue along the top will strengthen it a lot. 

The weakness that might come about will be in the form of side to side movement (wobble). Putting in diagonal braces will eliminate those movements. If you compare the holding area of 2 screws vs. gluing the entire area, the glue will win every time. You might just glue the diagonal braces. 

Baltic birch is expensive, no doubt about it. Do you need it here? nope..

My shop is in my basement which is always humid. If you have MDF and have had no problems with swelling, use that. I have not been so lucky here.


----------



## mdocod

*Re: Time to get a mill, learning this complicated world... (MILL PURCHASED!)*



precisionworks said:


> Using 4x4 legs, supporting about 400#, you should be fine. Are you going to remove the levelers from the mill base & install large levelers on each of the 4x4's? Enco sells the Mason Mounts, often on sale, and they do a nice job of sticking any machine to the floor. It wouldn't be hard to epoxy coupling nuts in the bottom of each leg to accept the mount stud.



Machine mounted/included levelers, till $$$ allows. if ever.



> You may also want to consider a chip pan, mounted between the mill & the stand. If you have a local fabrication shop, they can shear a piece of mild steel plate & weld a small lip around the edges. Something around 11 Ga (1/8") would be about right.



garage=chip pan

not a bad idea though, maybe someday...

hehe



> I do some wood working, and I would have done half blind dovetail construction using solid oak or solid walnut, with a fifteen
> coat French Polish finish Your stand should be more than strong enough just the way it's made.



lol... 



> I use lots of Baltic Birch, and love it for jig & fixture building. But your original construction, using a two layer MDF top, will work well if you cover it with the steel plate mentioned above. As long as MDF edges are well sealed, and the material doesn't get wet, it lasts forever in a shop environment.



Sweet! A vote of confidence for the current design! Thank You!

---

Our yearly average relative humidity here is under 50%. 

The sheets of MDF I am finally using for this project have no evidence of swelling, and have been in the garage for over 2 years. 

Eric


----------



## precisionworks

*Re: Time to get a mill, learning this complicated world... (MILL PURCHASED!)*

The primary strength in a wooden assembly comes from large contact area glue joints. If you look at the photo below, it appears that the lags screws that secure the upper part of the leg could be unscrewed, allowing coating of the contact surfaces with yellow aliphatic glue, and then reassembled. 









> When the top is assembled to the frame, run a glue bead on the tops of the 2x4's. that will give the top a lot more strength than just screws.


+1

Construction adhesive is ideal for that job. http://www.stickwithpl.com/Products.aspx?ID=fef65cc9-47bf-4802-aaa9-a343f2ef9458


----------



## gadget_lover

*Re: Time to get a mill, learning this complicated world... (MILL PURCHASED!)*

I told you there would be much more knowledgeable people helping!

Before the mill arrives you should do something to seal the wood top. You WILL be using lubricants, cutting, tapping and maybe even cooling fluids. These tend to splash a lot. I have several poka-dot shirts to prove it.

I found it was really useful cover part of my bench with thin sheet metal. A little glue and a few screws hold it in place. It serves several purposes;

1) Very moisture resistaant.
2) Magnetic, so things like indicator holders will stick.
3) Smooth, so tools with suction cups (panavise, etc) will stick.
4) Fire resistant, so I don't worry about sparks when grinding / soldering / heatshrinking things there.

A 2x3 sheet was fairly cheap at the hardware store.

Daniel


----------



## precisionworks

*Re: Time to get a mill, learning this complicated world... (MILL PURCHASED!)*



> cover part of my bench with thin sheet metal.


+1

I did that to the tops in the welding/grinding room, but used full sheets available from a HVAC contractor. Many have a shear & brake available, so both a backsplash & a front apron can be bent at their shop. Since it's conductive, it carries the ground current for welding on the bench.

In the machine room, the bench is covered with a sheet of Formica, purchased from a countertop manufacturer. They always have a bunch of leftover pieces, and the price is next to nothing. They'll also sell a can of aerosol contact adhesive, which is the only way to go. If you decide to do this, read up first, as you get only one chance to lay the sheet in place.


----------



## mdocod

*Re: Time to get a mill, learning this complicated world... (MILL PURCHASED!)*

Well, all the fancy options will have to wait, basically I needed to put together as much bench for as little money as possible here on a time frame, I really think this thing is probably overkill for ~400lbs, but I went head and added an extra center support to guarantee it...






Went ahead and did that and finished the thing up... If this can't hold a 400lb mill then nobody has any business putting a water bed in a house


----------



## wquiles

*Re: Time to get a mill, learning this complicated world... (MILL PURCHASED!)*

Good move - adding the center support was a very good idea 

Looking good dude :twothumbs

Will


----------



## snakebite

*Re: Time to get a mill, learning this complicated world... (MILL PURCHASED!)*

i know the o.p got their mill already.
but those reading this and thinking of getting lathe,mill,ect should not overlook auctions of bankrupt/closing shops.this stuff is of higher quality than the hf grade stuff and can be often had for the same or lower cost.
example is a bridgeport i got for $300 because the crt on the accu-rite "millpower" control was so dim it was unreadable.
since i repair this stuff for a living it was a non issue.
depending on your skill set and how much effort you want to put in it you could practicly steal such a unit at auction just by bidding over the scrap metal value.there are folks that buy this stuff to scrap it if it needs work.
i have customers that i service the electronics from this stuff that now outbid the scrap guys and bring me the sick parts to rebuild.
its really odd to bid on a stash of spare parts at a bankrupt shop knowing that just a month earlier you overhauled the stuff and it was never used.usually get it cheap.
like an mx2 computer unit and pendant for $50


----------



## Mirage_Man

*Re: Time to get a mill, learning this complicated world... (MILL PURCHASED!)*



snakebite said:


> i know the o.p got their mill already.
> but those reading this and thinking of getting lathe,mill,ect should not overlook auctions of bankrupt/closing shops.this stuff is of higher quality than the hf grade stuff and can be often had for the same or lower cost.
> example is a bridgeport i got for $300 because the crt on the accu-rite "millpower" control was so dim it was unreadable.
> since i repair this stuff for a living it was a non issue.
> depending on your skill set and how much effort you want to put in it you could practicly steal such a unit at auction just by bidding over the scrap metal value.there are folks that buy this stuff to scrap it if it needs work.
> i have customers that i service the electronics from this stuff that now outbid the scrap guys and bring me the sick parts to rebuild.
> its really odd to bid on a stash of spare parts at a bankrupt shop knowing that just a month earlier you overhauled the stuff and it was never used.usually get it cheap.
> like an mx2 computer unit and pendant for $50



I totally agree about older American iron being a great alternative to the new imports. If you can find something like that for a good price and have the room then by all means go for it! You will not be disappointed. However if you are not familiar with machine tools and how to judge wear I would find someone that does to take with you. It would really suck to get a machine home and then find out it's beat and it's going to take a ton of cash to get it in usable condition. 

One also has to consider the area of the country that you live. Here in FL there is nowhere near the amount of industry that goes on in your neck of the woods. That said the availability of used machines in even close to decent shape is pretty much nil. Or if you are lucky enough to find something in decent shape they usually want a ton of cash for it because they know there's not that much around to choose from. Around here there's a few used dealers that get wind of when a shop is liquidating and snatch up the stuff. Then put a hefty price tag on it for resale. Unless you're "in the know" as you are you pretty much have to rely on luck to find something. I for one gave up and bought a brand new import. Is it on the same level as a Bridgeport? No, but for what I do now it should work just fine.


----------



## wquiles

*Re: Time to get a mill, learning this complicated world... (MILL PURCHASED!)*



Mirage_Man said:


> I totally agree about older American iron being a great alternative to the new imports. If you can find something like that for a good price and have the room then by all means go for it! You will not be disappointed. However if you are not familiar with machine tools and how to judge wear I would find someone that does to take with you. It would really suck to get a machine home and then find out it's beat and it's going to take a ton of cash to get it in usable condition.
> 
> One also has to consider the area of the country that you live. Here in FL there is nowhere near the amount of industry that goes on in your neck of the woods. That said the availability of used machines in even close to decent shape is pretty much nil. Or if you are lucky enough to find something in decent shape they usually want a ton of cash for it because they know there's not that much around to choose from. Around here there's a few used dealers that get wind of when a shop is liquidating and snatch up the stuff. Then put a hefty price tag on it for resale. Unless you're "in the know" as you are you pretty much have to rely on luck to find something. I for one gave up and bought a brand new import. Is it on the same level as a Bridgeport? No, but for what I do now it should work just fine.



Same problem I have. Except for Ebay, Craig's List, I have no idea where to look since I am not in the "know". I look "daily" in the Craig's List but like Brian, everything I find is either shot or overpriced. 

If somebody around DFW knows of such dealers/outfits that have this type of used mills for sale, by all means shoot me a PM 

Will


----------



## Alan B

*Re: Time to get a mill, learning this complicated world, help appreciated!*



mdocod said:


> Changed my mind again, after spending some time looking carefully at the product manuals, and the "exploded" view with part listings of a few machines, I think I want the SX3, not the X3. The extra $400 buys a belt drive rather than gear drive, which is a lot quieter and more reliable from what I gather, not to mention, easy to modify for higher RPMs!!!, a DRO on the quill, digital RPM readout, more HP, tapping feature, an extra axis (head rotates), fine feed on the quill, and I've read that the head unit on the SX3 is all around a cleaner build that's more rigid than the standard X3....
> 
> [edit in]
> I just ordered one
> 
> !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



I have been looking at mills for some time now (I have a mini-mill on my lathe), and the SX3 is one of the top choices for me. I need to do a lot of tapping, and the next larger mill that has tapping is 3 phase 220, at least in Grizzly's line. So that would be nice for VFD, but quite a jump in price especially including the electronics, compared to the SX3.

The SX3 looks like a nice compromise, and 4" more vertical space than my mini mill. 

First the mill, then maybe I can upgrade my Lathe to one like Wills'. 

I'll be following along, looking forward to your progress reports. :twothumbs


----------



## mdocod

*Re: Time to get a mill, learning this complicated world... (MILL PURCHASED!)*



snakebite said:


> i know the o.p got their mill already.
> but those reading this and thinking of getting lathe,mill,ect should not overlook auctions of bankrupt/closing shops.this stuff is of higher quality than the hf grade stuff and can be often had for the same or lower cost.
> example is a bridgeport i got for $300 because the crt on the accu-rite "millpower" control was so dim it was unreadable.
> since i repair this stuff for a living it was a non issue.
> depending on your skill set and how much effort you want to put in it you could practicly steal such a unit at auction just by bidding over the scrap metal value.there are folks that buy this stuff to scrap it if it needs work.
> i have customers that i service the electronics from this stuff that now outbid the scrap guys and bring me the sick parts to rebuild.
> its really odd to bid on a stash of spare parts at a bankrupt shop knowing that just a month earlier you overhauled the stuff and it was never used.usually get it cheap.
> like an mx2 computer unit and pendant for $50



You're absolutely right! You're echoing what nearly every "home-machine" forum would suggest. I've already been through that research and did a little looking around, owning some good ole USA iron and refurbishing it seems to be the "prime" way to do things to get the most machine for the dollar, but the problem is location location. Most of the guys making those suggestions, live in heavily industrialized areas, coastal areas, etc, where big distances aren't involved in retrieving the machine. A single day rental of a fork lift and a trailer and the family SUV and you can get the thing home in an afternoon. I don't live in that place, such an endeavor would not be so simple or cheap. It would be a road trip, it would be time and money consuming far above and beyond the cost of the machine. Maybe someday, when I have more space time and money buffer in my life (dreaming. lol).... then maybe someday 

Eric


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## Mirage_Man

*Re: Time to get a mill, learning this complicated world... (MILL PURCHASED!)*



mdocod said:


> You're absolutely right! You're echoing what nearly every "home-machine" forum would suggest.



I can think of one forum that won't even allow you to discuss imports. It's almost as if it's blasphemy to talk about anything non American made.


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## mdocod

*Re: Time to get a mill, learning this complicated world... (MILL PURCHASED!)*



Mirage_Man said:


> I can think of one forum that won't even allow you to discuss imports. It's almost as if it's blasphemy to talk about anything non American made.



I spent a few hours reading around on that forum 

I had to quit because I realized if I kept reading there, I was going to have to kill myself. The whole forum was riddled with this assumption that every has easy access to massive piles of used cheap machinery and a fork lift. 

Imagine a CPF where anyone who talks about anything but Mag, SureFire or Streamlight is automatically discarded....


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## snakebite

*Re: Time to get a mill, learning this complicated world... (MILL PURCHASED!)*



mdocod said:


> I spent a few hours reading around on that forum
> 
> I had to quit because I realized if I kept reading there, I was going to have to kill myself. The whole forum was riddled with this assumption that every has easy access to massive piles of used cheap machinery and a fork lift.
> 
> Imagine a CPF where anyone who talks about anything but Mag, SureFire or Streamlight is automatically discarded....



thats silly but you have to remember that many of those folks are small shop owners whos income is threatened by these cheap imports.
thus the negative attitudes towards anything china.
lots of it is crap that can be made tolerable with some work.
i will spend my effort on something built with some quality and made here.
finding a deal on pre owned stuff is not for everyone but its worth it to go the extra mile to seek it out.
most shops around here wont even think about cheap china machines.
i still get a ton of anilam,accu-rite/millpower,swi/prototrak,ect units in for overhaul.the machines these systems are on will likely last forever.


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## precisionworks

*Re: Time to get a mill, learning this complicated world... (MILL PURCHASED!)*



> should not overlook auctions of bankrupt/closing shops.


I've spent as much time as anyone I know (other than dealers) attending every auction within half a days drive. Helped quite a few friends spend their money, while spending under $50 of my own (on a pair of Ettco tapping heads & a Tapmatic head, about $2k at new retail). Came close on a K&T Horizontal Mill with universal table, dividing head, a truckload of tooling, and got outbid my a guy who has way too much money:mecry:

My South Bend 10-K was listed in the local shopper, one owner, 1984 model, $750 OBO. Seller accepted my $500 offer and helped load it in the truck. I truly expect to find another deal just like that, probably around the year 2099 

All my other machine tools came from a good sales person, one who visits every shop within a days drive of here. You want it, he knows where to find it. Haven't tried to find a Russian Wife, but he probably knows her location as well, and her condition. He nearly sold me a nice Bpt Series 1, chrome ways, one shot, vari speed head, but he traded it for something he needed badly. Just bought a couple of Rockwell UniVises from him last week, for the surface grinder he sold me.

EBay is THE source of tooling. Probably spent enough there to buy a new Harley, but never have to interrupt a job to buy an insert, or indicator, or or or 

Craigslist has been a good source of smaller tooling, but the machine tools are overpriced by a factor of 25 (so a horizontal mill that might bring $100 at auction, will list on Craigslist for $2500). Our front load LG washer was purchased there, at less than half of new cost (six months old, with receips, still in warranty) so it's good for some items.

Bottom line -- if you need iron, find a good salesperson whom you trust.


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## Mirage_Man

*Re: Time to get a mill, learning this complicated world... (MILL PURCHASED!)*



precisionworks said:


> Bottom line -- if you need iron, find a good salesperson whom you trust.



Round here that's the hard part. :mecry:


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## mdocod

*Re: Time to get a mill, learning this complicated world... (MILL PURCHASED!)*

Decided to go ahead and seal up the MDF after-all, just going to do the top and edges. I got to thinking about it and realized that there will be scenarios, often involving mnt dew or potentially beer that could result in a "wet" incident. I'm just giving it a couple few layers of oil base kilz to "fill in" the surface porosity, and then going to finish it off with some high gloss white. In my experience, commercial grade high gloss will stand up to a lot and becomes a nice water-resistant barrier that lasts years. A white bench-top is also nice as it makes it easier to see things. and improves the effective lighting in the room. 

Eric


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## precisionworks

*Re: Time to get a mill, learning this complicated world... (MILL PURCHASED!)*



> potentially beer



Perish the thought, especially when machining or welding:thinking:


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## mdocod

*Re: Time to get a mill, learning this complicated world... (MILL PURCHASED!)*

The crate is in good shape  Everything seems to be in order... The delivery man actually simplified my life by about 10X this afternoon, we used his hand-truck to drag that thing all the way to the garage. I didn't even ask for help getting it to the garage! He asked where I wanted it and he just asked to help with a push... 30 seconds from the truck to the garage, nice guy, if I had had a 20 on me it would have been his for sure. It's not considered their responsibility to deal with this sort of thing so my hats off! I think grizzly made a good choice in their contract there.





------

Ooooooooo at this moment I finally got to "see" the proportions of the machine, get a "feel" for the size and look and such.... Neato!





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Crate came apart easily...





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Took about 2 hours to clean the thing, what a mess... You can see all the red china goop all over the machine here.... I wouldn't call this grease... imagine bee's wax all over it... PITA! In an effort to save time, I plugged he machine in and ran the break-in procedure while I was cleaning.





------

Went down and picked up the 2-ton collapsable engine lift from harbor freight on sale for $144, we need one anyways for a bunch of things, and just so happened that there was a coupon for it this week in their "flyer" so it was as if the stars were in alignment for me!
*you might notice there are some pieces missing from the bench... The crane wouldn't roll under the bench the way it was, so I removed some things to get it on there 





------

A sigh of relief! Once it was on the table I felt comfortable again, I had been so worried about something going wrong, I can't imaging dropping this thing from a few feet up!









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We got the table in position and I had to try it out. EVERYTHING I ordered shoed up today, worked out great. So I started unpacking boxes and organizing things, I went ahead and mounted up the indexing rotary table, learned my way around that, and made some chips with an 11/16" 4 flute end-mill in some delrin....









------

My initial thoughts are as follows:

It does what I had hoped, it seems to cut without much trouble through delrin. I took some passes at 0.375" depth of cut, and it didn't do too bad. I did notice that at low RPMs, or when I get my feed rate wrong, that it would cause some "wobble"... seems to be coming from the table.. I'm still learning how to use the clamp kit and am betting part of it was coming from my lack of taking the time to clamp down the quick indexer as well as it ought to be, may also need to adjust the gibs a bit. 

Overall the machine really isn't bad, It has "issues" that are so commonly associated with these chinese machines, some of the issues are really nothing to bother with, others I may have to address. I'll have to mount up some metal sometime and figure out what this thing can really do. I am primarily going for plastic here, but It would be nice to know that I could make a car part in a tight situation 

Eric


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## wquiles

Awesome Eric - congrats again!!!

Will


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## Mirage_Man

Sweet! With all these new machines popping up we should have some really cool stuff to look at shortly.

BTW it looks like there's a drill chuck in the mill in the pictures. You weren't using that to mill with were you?


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## 65535

Mirage_Man said:


> Sweet! With all these new machines popping up we should have some really cool stuff to look at shortly.
> 
> BTW it looks like there's a drill chuck in the mill in the pictures. You weren't using that to mill with were you?



That could very well cause wobble, not to mention ruin the chuck.


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## mdocod

Mirage_Man said:


> Sweet! With all these new machines popping up we should have some really cool stuff to look at shortly.
> 
> BTW it looks like there's a drill chuck in the mill in the pictures. You weren't using that to mill with were you?



No, I used a collet for the milling...

The timing of when I thought to snap the pictures was at a point where I had just swapped the included chuck over to a 5/8" shank >JT6 arbor. I was testing it out to see if that would work well enough or not. Seems like it'll do fine either way... Saves me having to remove the draw bar completely to swap from the 5/8s shank end-mills, of which I have several. I knew someone was going to ask as soon as I realized that in the pictures later while uploading.. heh.

Eric


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## BVH

I stopped thinking about getting a mill a while ago. Then, just in the last month, I've had 3 occasions to use my drillpress as a mill and it's not fun. I really like the SX3 talked about here but want something smaller such as this:

http://grizzly.com/products/Mini-Milling-Machine/G8689

My last project was to make a torque arm for my electric bicycle. In 1" x 3/16" steel strap, I drilled a 3/8" hole and then needed to slot it in both directions to end up with an shape to fit over a 1/2" axle with two flat sides. I ended up "drilling" in .1mm increments with the 3/8 endmill until done. Now don't laugh!






This is about the heaviest machining need I've had for a mill. I'm very familiar with buying too small and then having to upgrade later. I've done it in my past. In this case, if I find I really need something more powerful, I will upgrade.

In this class of machine, what are the best bets?


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## gadget_lover

You will hear no laughing about the part. If the holes are aligned as needed, and the shape does not interfere with other parts, then it's a job well done.


The minimill is one of the standard machines used in small home shops. People have made some amazing things using one. They have limitations, but if you read the specs and stay within those limits it looks well. 

I hear that the grizzly version of the minimill is a good choice, but I do not have one. I jumped from a micromill to a small knee mill.

Daniel


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## Alan B

I have a Grizzly Minimill on the bed of my G0516 lathe. I have done a lot of work with it, mostly in plastic. I have done some aluminum, the largest making the prototype for my D [email protected] regulator, there are photos in the thread in my sig. It was a bit of a struggle milling that much 6061T6 and took me quite a long time. Probably partly my fault for the choice of tooling. I'm always concerned about breaking the plastic gears, but it has not been a problem thus far. There are lots of goodies for minimills, and they are very popular. For myself, I'm going to get something bigger at some point, but this is a useful tool until then.


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## mdocod

What I have learned from my experimentation is if you can fit and clamp something down and it will fit under the head of the machine with tooling, any machine can eventually do just about any job if you keep the material removal rates within the machines capabilities. The more weight and power you have, the more accuracy you can maintain with larger cuts. The small chinese machines require some "work" to get them ready to run smooth an accurately. 

Basically, I think what I am saying is that, if the only purpose for a machine is occasional one-off small parts, then machining speed is not very important, you can make do with a small machine. Larger machines are going to be more forgiving of improper feed rates and cut depths. 

you might look at this as an option....
http://www.lathemaster.com/Lathemaster LM25L Milling Machine.htm

little lighter weight than an SX3, but it looks like a nicer build quality in some ways. Wider RPM range from the factory setup (I've since changed my spindle pulley to go over 3000RPM), has many of the same features like the digital readouts for quill drop-down and RPM, variable DC motor, etc etc....

That machine works out to about $200 cheaper than an SX3 shipped from grizzly....

However, right now... I think the best deal in this price range is the RF45 clone sold by that same place. He's offering free shipping right now, which actually makes it about the same price as an SX3 (once you figure in shipping), but it's really twice the machine as far as raw weight is concerned. If he had been running that free shipping special when I got my SX3, I would have got that machine. It was just slightly out of my price range at the time and I couldn't stretch the budget any more. 

-Eric


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## HarryN

I will just throw in my 2 cents, even though it is probably worth less than that even. 

A manual mill is a great thing, but the more complex the part, the more complex your tooling needs are as well. Skill, or at least the ability to consistently turn a crank for extended periods of time can be a pain. If you doubt this, think about how hard it is to make an oval part with an oval slot with a manual mill compared to a cnc. Of course it can be done manually, but what a pain.

I really believe that for many types of work, a cnc driven mill is actually cheaper to own just in tooling savings, and it is a heck of a lot easier to make 2- 5 of a part on a cnc than on a manual mill. If I need more than 10 of something, it starts to be cheaper to just take it to a machine shop anyway. 

That being said, I haven't made this jump yet myself, just drooled.

Harry


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## wquiles

+1 Well said Harry.

I like the idea of a CNC setup, but .....


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## BVH

CNC.....In my dreams! Doing the usual...back and forth between the mini and the SX3/Lathemaster that mdocod linked above. I thought for sure, I'd stick with my idea of a mini!


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## gadget_lover

BVH, don't worry about CNC yet. I suggest that a beginner may be better off buying a manual before buying a CNC setup. That way you get to learn about things like workholding, rates of feed and what to expect when it's going right (and wrong).

While you will eventually learn the same things with a CNC mill, you have multiple learning curves (, mechanical engineering, 3-D modeling and machining) to conquer at once.

Daniel


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## precisionworks

> for many types of work, a cnc driven mill is actually cheaper to own


My shop mostly does one off or prototype jobs, which sometimes turn into multiple part production. Two local CNC shops do a nice job & have about 10 day turn around, which means it's better (for me) to let them buy the machines, tooling, software, etc. As much as I'd like to have a CNC lathe or mill, unless that machine runs at least 6 hours a day it isn't going to pay for itself. That number, 6 hours, is time in the cut & does not count machine set up & program time which would likely push the "real" number to 9 hours per day.

All I need is one big government contract


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## HarryN

Precisionworks - of course you are right - especially when it comes down to an experienced machinist making one off parts. It is always impressive to watch an experienced craftsman at work.

I guess in some ways, cnc is a crutch for the amateurs like me. My choice is to make a part "sort of correctly" to the 50 % point, then mess it up a couple of times, or to consider using some simple software tools to reduce the error rate. I guess I find it less frustrating for the machine to run the part 10x to get one right, then for me to hand do it 10x to get something close. 

It is actually not that hard to add cnc capability to a mill. It does make some assumptions about your backlash though. There are entire internet forums dedicated to the subject.

Gadget Lover - when are we going to cnc that thing in your garage? 

Take care,

HarryN


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## wquiles

HarryN said:


> It is actually not that hard to add cnc capability to a mill. It does make some assumptions about your backlash though. There are entire internet forums dedicated to the subject.



Newbie question (and I don't want to turn this thread into a how-to-do-CNC level of detail, but this is something I have been curious since I have been using a DRO for the last 2-3 years): If you already have a DRO, and therefore scales that are fairly accurate down to 0.0002" like on my DRO, why would you need expensive ball screws when you can accurately read the exact position via the scales? Wouldn't this negate the problem of having backlash since the CNC software will know the exact position due to the scale, and therefore the CNC software can adjust the servo/stepper?

I understand that the ideal situation would be to have zero backlash so that the software would have a very easy job to move the table (say on a mill) since changing the direction of the servo/motor/stepper would immediately change the direction of the table, BUT being a total newbie, I can see a complete feedback loop between the software commanding the stepper/servors to move the table (say on a mill) and the scales providing accurate positioning as to when to stop. When moving backwards, the stepper/servos would have to move "some" before the scale reads (taking the backlash out), but nevertheless it "should" work.

What am I missing?

Will


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## gadget_lover

HarryN said:


> Gadget Lover - when are we going to cnc that thing in your garage?



Never??? 

For me, there's a certain pleasure that comes from forming a piece of wood, steel or plastic into something useful. There is an almost artistic feeling in seeing a part come out as you wanted it to be.

While CNC can probably do it better and (with a good setup) more accurately, it's not the same to simply stand by and watch a piece being created. And while it's true that there is skill in building the project in CAD, and skill involved in running the CNC mill, it's not the same type of skills. I does not seem as satisfying.

If I needed to do production runs, I'd probably have a dedicated CNC setup. I do nothing but one-offs.

Daniel


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## rmteo

Will, to answer your question regarding backlash, here is hint - it has to do with being able to make cuts bi-directionally.


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## gadget_lover

Climb milling works best when you can eliminate backlash. 

I am also surprised that so many CNC setups use dead reckoning instead of some feedback mechanism. They do manage, and quite well, but it seems it would make more sense if they used sensors. 

Daniel


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## rmteo

If the backlash is minimal and well controlled an open loop (dead reckoning) system works fine. However, most machining centers do have the option of incorporating linear scales on any axis - think mucho mulla.


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