# Regulated M6 hotdriver (and PIR) coming soon



## andrewwynn (Mar 30, 2006)

Inadvertently i discovered a way to 'hack' a hotdriver into submission to make it work in an M6.. you'd be able to use 6xLiON in a 2x3 config or 6xNiMH 'A' diameter in a series config (a little more work to make the end-caps for series). The beauty is i don't need to make a new driver board and the end-caps especially for LiON use can be made with just circles of PCB. (actually on one side i'll just use a piece of copper to keep the thickness down). 

I have a loaner lined-up to perfect the solution and when i have the solution complete i will post a 'who wants one' on BST. There is a fair amount of labor involved to make the hack (cutting traces, a jumper or two).. but it's reasonable and i think i'll be able to offer a complete pack with 6 LiON for under $100, hopefully that will even include the modified tail cup. 

I will also show the 'cookbook' so somebody with the skill can just buy the hotdriver and make the modification themselves, probably save about $30. 






here's the hotdriver





here's the battery pack that it will go on (orange).. shown with a stock M6 MB20 battery pack. 

the M6x6 will run nearly 40 minutes in an M6, probably 30+ minutes of that is in regulation. 

My favorite part.. it looks like i can work out voltage and current regulation, so that it will run the HOLA or the LOLA with no changing of any settings.. just fully automatic! 

-awr


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## CLHC (Mar 30, 2006)

*Re: Regulated M6 hotdriver coming soon*



andrewwynn said:


> it's reasonable and I think I'll be able to offer a complete pack with 6 LiON for under $100, hopefully that will even include the modified tail cup.


:huh: Finally coming to fruition! Looking forward to it now. . .


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## lebox97 (Mar 30, 2006)

*Re: Regulated M6 hotdriver coming soon*

 "sign" me up scotty, when your ready (oops wrong quote)


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## nuggett (Mar 30, 2006)

*Re: Regulated M6 hotdriver coming soon*

I'm in!


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## diggdug13 (Mar 31, 2006)

*Re: Regulated M6 hotdriver coming soon*

You already know what I'm gonna say Andrew but here it goes:

put me down for 2

glad to see you advertising this finally.

doug


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## js (Mar 31, 2006)

*Re: Regulated M6 hotdriver coming soon*

AWR,

If the driver is set to the best level for the MN21, it will be too low for the MN20, and if set for MN20, will be too high for MN21.

Also, could you elaborate on exactly what has to happen to the tail cap?

From what I know of the M6 body and space inside, it looks to me as if something radical will have to happen in order for this pack and regulator to be able to fit. But if the TC is the only part that needs modding, then people could just buy an extra TC and be able to go to regular or M6-AWR configuration. SO that's cool.

Anyway, for anyone who is waiting on my M6-R list and would rather be on AWR's list, I will happily release you from your commitment and refund your money. Not a problem. Just shoot me off a PM.


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## andrewwynn (Mar 31, 2006)

*Re: Regulated M6 hotdriver coming soon*

the only difference on the tailcap is that the 'cup' inside has to be cut down (if you modify the original). I will be getting parts machined that will be a 'swap out' replacement. In addition, the pack can be built smaller with NiMH batteries and fit inside stock, probably with GP2000 cells which will get you 1.9-1.95AH which will get about 20-23min runtime vs the close to forty with the 3.3AH pack made from LiONs. 

I will make as i mentioned, inner cups for the TC which is all that is needed to swap back to the total stock unit.. in-addition, all you need is a longer spring to use the modified tail cup with the MB20 pack, so you don't have to swap back for a short-term use.. i.e. keeping the MB20 loaded as a 'reserve' just keep the spring with the pack so you can swap it in. 

It will still be maybe a month for getting to the point where i can offer these.. since i won't do production on them myself (due to nano obligations).. i have to get leigh caught up and done on hotdriver production, but she'll be needing work and it'll likely be the M6x6-R. 

hope to have the prototype running next weekend, from that test i will know what the labor will be so how much it will take to make and when i can get a time-line made i will start a BST. 

Any work that i can offload from the M6-R can get JS and bwaites to their next project which i'm dying to see myself. 

The driver isn't set ONLY by voltage, JS.. it's set for a max voltage and a max current. 

E.G. It will be set for a maximum current of approx. 4.9A and a maximum voltage of approx 7.3V.. (which from what i understand it could be higher for the LOLA). 

So.. if you put in the LOLA, it will regulate to 7.3V and whatever amperage.. but if you put in the HOLA, it will try to get to 7.3V but it will hit 4.9A around 6.8V so it will stop and regulate around 6.8V.. (basically i will set the amperage 'til the voltage is what i want). 

-awr


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## js (Apr 1, 2006)

*Re: Regulated M6 hotdriver coming soon*

AWR,

*SWEET!!!* Max voltage AND max current set points! I love it!

Now THAT'S what I call an elegant solution to the problem. Nicely done, Andrew. Nicely done.

Listen, I'm having some thoughts about something that may interest you. Give me a call. PM sent.


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## dbedit (Apr 1, 2006)

*Re: Regulated M6 hotdriver coming soon*

I am In please put me down for one! 
I "Need" a rechagable solution for my M6 please count me in. PP ready just let me know when to send it.


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## CM (Apr 1, 2006)

*Re: Regulated M6 hotdriver coming soon*


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## Lips (Apr 1, 2006)

*Re: Regulated M6 hotdriver coming soon*

I'll take one... Gotta find an M6 now!


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## Flea Bag (Apr 1, 2006)

*Re: Regulated M6 hotdriver coming soon*

Really hope you'll find a solution with the Li-ions that will allow the battery to be a true drop-in, stock M6 body, stock tailcap and all...

I can't mod a simple Maglight to save my life  -Guess I'm a minority in that department but it's one of the reasons why I bought the M6!

Burining to see the final result!


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## wquiles (Apr 1, 2006)

*Re: Regulated M6 hotdriver coming soon*



Flea Bag said:


> Really hope you'll find a solution with the Li-ions that will allow the battery to be a true drop-in, stock M6 body, stock tailcap and all...
> 
> I can't mod a simple Maglight to save my life  -Guess I'm a minority in that department but it's one of the reasons why I bought the M6!
> 
> Burining to see the final result!


Unfortunately, this awesome regulated battery pack that Andrew has designed depends on the 6x17500 LiIon cells, which don't physically fit inside a SF M6. The modification for the new cup is rather easy, as shown in this post - you simply pull the OEM cup with pliers, and press the new one with your fingers - done!. As Andrew stated above, using a longer spring (normal leftover from M*g mods), you will be able to use the OEM MB20 battery pack in an "emergency" as well 

Will


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## js (Apr 1, 2006)

*Re: Regulated M6 hotdriver coming soon*



Flea Bag said:


> Really hope you'll find a solution with the Li-ions that will allow the battery to be a true drop-in, stock M6 body, stock tailcap and all...
> 
> I can't mod a simple Maglight to save my life  -Guess I'm a minority in that department but it's one of the reasons why I bought the M6!
> 
> Burining to see the final result!



This pack is not a true drop-in, but as long as you are willing to get an extra Tail Cap, it's more or less a drop-in w/modded tail cap. You just switch to the stock TC for MB20. Or, as mentioned, you can install a longer spring on the modded TC to use the MB20, but that would not bring the light back to true stock condition. Or you can replace the internals of the Tail Cap with the original internals and get back to stock that way. But if it were me, I'd just have two Tail Caps. It's not that much money to buy a new M6 LOTC, and then you wouldn't have to constantly be messing with the internals to switch back and forth.

The other thing to note is that this pack is not fully regulated. It is partially regulated. That's not necessarily a bad thing! And I'm not trying to knock it. Just pointing out that this pack will have a brightness plateau in the beginning, and then gradually dim off over the rest of the runtime. Some people actually would prefer this to a warning flashes followed by sudden dimming, I think. And the runtime is great!

Plus, Li-ion cells can just sit around and be happy as a clam. NiMH can NOT sit around unused for too long or they start to go bad.


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## LuxLuthor (Apr 1, 2006)

*Re: Regulated M6 hotdriver coming soon*

Well, TBH when I heard JS gave up on any more M6-R's, I gave up on the SF-M6, cause there's no way I'm going through $1.75 123a's like water in this light.....half of which is **** poor light as the batteries run down.

Now, getting a SF-M6 is back on the table for me, and if Andrew says he can get the Li-ion's to fit (even if they are not 6x17500 which wquiles says don't fit--but the picture sure looks like they will), I'm sure he will "git-er-done."

This is really awsome work, and I'm down with this complete package including modded tailcap. WOW!


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## wquiles (Apr 1, 2006)

*Re: Regulated M6 hotdriver coming soon*

No, 6x17500 does "not" physically fit without the new easy-to-swap tailcup:





Another possible rechargable solution (for the MN60 and 61) that "does" fit is when using 3x17670 cells:





Will


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## andrewwynn (Apr 2, 2006)

*Re: Regulated M6 hotdriver coming soon*



js said:


> SWEET!!! Max voltage AND max current set points! I love it!
> 
> Now THAT'S what I call an elegant solution to the problem. Nicely done, Andrew. Nicely done.



yeah i know, i was soo happy to discover the coincidence that the HIGHER power light uses LOWER voltage but HIGHER current to allow this method. There are other solutions that can be worked out with hotdriver.. example 1060 lamp at 6.6V but 4.0A and the 1111 lamp at 7.2V and 3.7A.. if you set a hotdriver to 7.2V and 4.0A, you can swap at will between those two lamps! The osram 35W lamp pulls like 6.3A at 7.0V and is another possibility.. set the hotdriver to 6.3A and 7.2V and you can swap between 1111 lamp and osram 35W.. I've been telling people the chip the HD is based on is pretty cool. 

fleabag.. there are a couple options, like the one mentioned by JS.. having a second tailcap with the modded cup.. you could buy a spare and just cut down the cup inside yourself (literally took me 5 minutes with a dremel).. or buy the modified cup. ... or the 'lower power' option would be to use lower capacity cells like 6xNIMH in series but using GP2000 cells.. drops the capacity from 3.3AH to 1.9AH but you'd get over 20min. runtime with an NIMH pack vs LiON pack and it will fit in the stock light. 

Considering the advantages of LiON like the low self discharge and the fact that with a very small mod that is reversable, i would myself stick with double the runtime and a pack that can sit for weeks and not self-discharge.

If you really wanted to keep completely stock, you'd be able w/o too much difficulty make a shorter, lower capacity pack from a hotdriver and some GP2000 cells. I will likely make a prototype with them to see how difficult it will be and maybe offer that as an option when selling them. 

(since it's harder to make and GP2000 cells cost more.. it will probably be the same price.. just won't have the metal replacement tail cup). 

oh.. btw.. i probably will have enough springs to include them for the 'backup' use. 



js said:


> The other thing to note is that this pack is not fully regulated. It is partially regulated. That's not necessarily a bad thing! And I'm not trying to knock it. Just pointing out that this pack will have a brightness plateau in the beginning, and then gradually dim off over the rest of the runtime. Some people actually would prefer this to a warning flashes followed by sudden dimming, I think. And the runtime is great!



Actually a 'bit' of a misnomer.. since LiON cells are almost completely depleted at 3.45V.. and with the HOLA, the regulated output will be about 6.8V, the pack will be in regulation for at least 90% of the runtime, with a bit of dimming right at the end (not a lot of warning, maybe 1 minute).. and with hotdriver it just 'shuts off' when the batteries die.. however you can let the voltage recover a bit and use in 'short, controlled bursts' for a long time.. say you are stuck in the middle of a woods.. you could 'blink' your way out no problem. 

With the LOLA, Jim's description is a bit more accurate.. since the regulation would be set about the Vnominal of the batteries.. the output would be dead-level for the first 20-30% of runtime, followed by a long plateau of a slight decline in output (would not be a visible dimming but would be measureable).. and at the end of cycle, the output would drop like a rock for a few seconds before shutting off. 

The hotdriver shuts off at 75% output.. your eyes really won't notice a 25% dimming because they will 'open up' a bit as it gets darker, so you will usually not detect the dimming, but consider that with LOLA, you'll probably get 75-80 minutes of runtime.. anybody that is used to using the M6 will be blown away by how long this solution lasts! 

-awr


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## Flea Bag (Apr 2, 2006)

*Re: Regulated M6 hotdriver coming soon*

andrewwynn, wquiles, js, thanks for the explanations. Didn't see the thread about the tailcap shortening modification. Now that I did, I'm all for the li-ion version.

Erm... Perhaps I'm running scared since I missed out on the M6-R group-buy so put me down for two rechargeable li-ion packs with parts for two modified tailcaps please!


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## andrewwynn (Apr 2, 2006)

*Re: Regulated M6 hotdriver coming soon*

there will be no need to worry about missing out. I plan to get at least 100 tailcups made and will make as many of these as people want. since the labor is farmed out the turnaround will be reasonable once the metal parts are made.. that will take about 2 monhts once i get the $ to order them. 

-awr


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## petrev (Apr 2, 2006)

*Re: Regulated M6 hotdriver coming soon*

Hi Andrew - 

This is my current ( waiting for the new tailcap-insert etc. ) short term solution





This uses a Modamag 6AA adaptor modified/shortened to 2s3p-LIR123 and runs for 15mins down to 3.3V/batt.

The space at the bottom will allow a regulator to fit.

With your orange batt-pack I take it you will not be using the large spring.

Will you be using the new high current AW-LiIons instead of the raw 17500s shown ? (edit: Just noticed Orange cells are ICR17500 so guess that means protected cells !) Will it be a pack charging system solution or removable cells ?

With the new Tailcap-Insert will there be room for a PIR1 or is the PIR1 too tall - looks taller than the HotDriver overall - Hybrid system using your Pack and Tail-Insert with a PIR1 could give High and Low output using just an MN21 ( sorry if I'm being rude mentioning the PIR1 in your thread )

Anyway - all looking very interesting now its coming together and can't wait for the final recipe to be cooked up

Thanks Pete


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## andrewwynn (Apr 2, 2006)

*Re: Regulated M6 hotdriver coming soon*

will just use 'raw' LiONs most likely. the hotdriver prevents use with low voltage, so it's impossible to over-discharge. 

Cells will be charged in the pack. I will be looking into what charging solution is best. I have found some really neat chip chargers like i use for the nano, and might be able to incorproate them. 

Winny and i have been chatting about how to get a PIR to fit into the tailcup as well.. it's a close fit but it is very likely to fit, using the positive-charged case solution you've mentinoed before.. Maybe even a slight tweak to the design. 

In the case of this solution, lamp current does NOT go through the tailcap spring or connection.. it is ONLY used as a switch. My circuit i can interrupt the ground path to the regulator to turn off the light, or the + feed, but that is tricky to solve how to wire. In my case, the lamp + will be the terminal in the center both top and bottom.. the 'inside' outer top will be ground and the V+ bat will only be internal to the battery pack itself. closing the tailcap will bring ground from inside out to the tailcap cup and a small spring will bring the ground path to the regulator to turn it on when the tailcap is pressed or turned in. 

Not a problem about mentioning the PIR.. winny and i are on very good terms.. he just sent me a PIR pro-bono i think for helping out answering questions and helpful hints how to put a PIR into a KIU socket, i just sent him a PM that said he might want to post here that this tailcup i'm making will likely enable the use of a PIR in the M6 as well.. it's a bit of 'open source' design that way. 

I mentioned to winny that setting up the PIR to have two levels for the HOLA and LOLA woudl be great.. the problem i see.. is that since PIR wants momentary on.. i think that you'd have to set it up so that you never turn the tailcap all the way on.. but it's also tricky how to change the levels.. it would be safe to change from LOLA to HOLA output if the LOLA lamp is in... but very bad if you go the other way.. and with the instinct to hold the tailcap IN 'momentary' style with M6.. it would be veeerrry easy to blow your MN21 by holding the tailcap in for 1 1/2 seconds. 

you could use 17670s and the PIR right now w/o the modified tailcap, just won't get the outrageous runtime of my pack, but you can deal with the voltage differential. 

I think i would recommend using a single level.. and changing that single level if you change lamps to avoid the blowing lamp situation (if using the PIR). 

with the hotdriver solution it will automatically detect which lamp is in and output appropreiatly, with the caveat that a stock M6 with $15/hr battery solution with the LOLA will be a little bit brighter for the first 30-40% of the run, but still very usable, and a lot longer runtime than the HOLA. 

-awr


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## petrev (Apr 2, 2006)

*Re: Regulated M6 hotdriver coming soon*

Hi Andrew 

Great Stuff - Really can't wait ( would a loan towards the Tailcups help get the ball rolling ?)

My thought was that if the PIR1 could be shoehorned in I would set it for say 6.8-7.0V for high or overdrive power and a lower V of say 5V (or your recommended value) for longer runtime "LOLA Effect" brightness all from the MN21. How does that sound ?

Cheers Pete


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## LuxLuthor (Apr 2, 2006)

*Re: Regulated M6 hotdriver coming soon*

It all sounds great. Petrev, love your battery sketch!


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## winny (Apr 2, 2006)

*Re: Regulated M6 hotdriver coming soon*



andrewwynn said:


> Not a problem about mentioning the PIR.. winny and i are on very good terms.. he just sent me a PIR pro-bono i think for helping out answering questions and helpful hints how to put a PIR into a KIU socket...



Yes, well... It was primarily because you said you would beta-test it, which you didn't and which upset some people who sent me PMs about it. I must say I don't care that much but I thought that little "?" after Free in your row would make you think about it. Nevertheless, I can give you one anyway for that you mentioned above and that it probably pays off to be generous in the long run.




andrewwynn said:


> i just sent him a PM that said he might want to post here that this tailcup i'm making will likely enable the use of a PIR in the M6 as well.. it's a bit of 'open source' design that way.



I like the sound of that. We probably need all the tips and input we need to make the most out of this. wquilles was primarily concerned about the battery adapter so that is definitely something that we need to figure out. If anyone has got a caliper, an M6 and some spare time they are very welcome to post all their measurements of the battery tube and the tailcap (new or old) so we can start working on that.




andrewwynn said:


> I mentioned to winny that setting up the PIR to have two levels for the HOLA and LOLA woudl be great.. the problem i see.. is that since PIR wants momentary on...



I don't see the problem with that. If we incorporate a momentary switch in the tailcap, just like petrevs drawings, we can have several settings for the regulator so you can choose whatever level your lamp likes. We don't plan to pull all current through the switch, right?

I hope I haven't steeled your thread too much. Perhaps we should to two separate threads when this comes to a sale, but until then we might just as well discuss everything in the same thread IMHO.


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## petrev (Apr 2, 2006)

*Re: Regulated M6 hotdriver coming soon*



LuxLuthor said:


> It all sounds great. Petrev, love your battery sketch!




Cheers Lux

Originally posted Sketch here
http://candlepowerforums.com/vb/showpost.php?p=1300824&postcount=157

and Variant
http://candlepowerforums.com/vb/showpost.php?p=1328412&postcount=184

All the Best


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## andrewwynn (Apr 2, 2006)

Hey winny.. good idea to use this thread to discuss both PIR and hotdriver solutions. notice i changed the title. 

Now i get the ? on my name.. sorry for those people confused regarding the beta model.. i had signed up as the 'last guy' on beta and planned to pay for it up until the end when winny said it was ok not to pay.. there was no testing done yet on my part with the 'beta' model because by the time i got the beta model the production model was already getting assembled and i didn't want to go through the testing process twice.. the plan became, now get a production PIR that i can fit into a KIU and show people a simplified photo 'step by step' just like the hotdriver into KIU.. 

Generosity does count, i'm sure that my eagerness to help people really no different from helping answer questions on my own stuff is not in small part do to the generosity of winny. 

Fortunately wquilles already has not just 2 M6s, but has already made the first prototype tailcup... we have things in the works where i will be making a battery pack this week and assembling into an operational M6 with the hotdriver. The results which can be extrapolated into PIR solution with the same. I think that to make the PIR work properly will require as suggested earlier, putting the case to + since the switch on PIR requires +, and my recommendation if possible is to avoid having lamp current go through the tailcap spring, that way you can use a wimpy spring and not worry about the contact. My solution is common ground, but hotdriver doesn't care how you turn it on/off since it uses constant on switch, the switch can actually just be soldered 'on' and removing power from either + or - turns off the hotdriver, and it will go through the soft-start properly either way. 

The problem with having the tailcap be momentary and using two levels with PIR is this:

it is 'instinct' for an M6 user to hold the tailcap button on for long periods of time... and the switch levels with PIR the method is.. 'hold for a while'.. so what will happen is somebody will have the HOLA lamp in... inadvertantly press and HOLD the tailcap (or twist it in solid) and it will switch from HOLA to LOLA voltage and blow the lamp. maybe there can be an 'm6' version of the software that you have to 'double click' or 'tripple click' to change lamp level? It is of course perfectly safe to change to HOLA voltage with the LOLA lamp in, and as long as it remembers and will start at HOLA voltage after swapping bulbs you'll be in good shape. 

petrev, see pm. 

-awr


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## winny (Apr 2, 2006)

We are planning to make a special M6 version of it that can't handle as high voltages as the current one in order to save money and with higher accuracy at lower voltages. The software will of course be modded in order to make it fit for how our potential customers want it to behave. Constant on and triple click for changing setting is no problem. We can of course make it use a constant-on switch as well if a momentary switch would pose a problem.

I wish I had an M6 so I could test it myself but I can't justify the cost yet. How does the current tailcap-solution look?


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## andrewwynn (Apr 2, 2006)

already made an operational hand-made prototype of the tailcup, works great, and another has been machined and will be in my hands next weekend to fine-tune the fitting of the hotdriver. Once i have it in-hand i'll get some exact measurements that you can use to fit the PIR, and exact directions how to make the pack. 

-awr


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## wquiles (Apr 2, 2006)

winny said:


> I which I had an M6 so I could test it myself but I can't justify the cost yet. How does the current tailcap-solution look?


Winny,

The new cup is shown here , and it is very easy to swap 

We will work with Andrew to make this happen 

Will


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## winny (Apr 2, 2006)

Dang! How bad do I actually spell tonight? "which"?  no no, it's "wish", even I know that. 

Of course we will! We have to show the world that we can do better than SureFire, regardless of how fancy catalogs and websites they can make. 
Size15: please don't kill me.


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## andrewwynn (Apr 2, 2006)

LOL on the size15 remark.. as big a fan of SF, i'm sure, that just like JS who's probably nearly as big a fan of the M6, that it can be improved upon.. and if doubling the runtime at the same time as reducing the internal heat from 22W down to maybe 1-2W, and at the same time dropping the operational cost from $33/hr down to maybe $3/hr (that includes the lamp), doesn't count as a worthy improvement, not sure what does. 

As always i will be helping to figure out the best method to deal with the programming of the M6 and we can work to get you a battery pack bult with the PIR and figure out what that is. I would be leaning toward having the tailcap be able to be screwed tight, but with maybe reverse-click to turn the values, or perhaps even better.. a clickie switch on the inside to change lamp values (or even a slide switch clearly labeled that the uC can poll to see if it's supposed to be using HOLA or LOLA. Or.. perhaps even better.. just like hotdriver, use current sensing for HOLA and voltage regulation for HOLA, and have it be fully automatic.. and the 'levels' would be particular to which lamp, so you can have lamp-saving levels for most of the time and 'afterburner' levels to really show off. 

One thing really nice about the PIR is that you can make the likes of a 2x18650 or 3x17670, or 6xR123 *today*.. and shoe horn in a solution that will work.. it's just a matter of figuring out the wiring. 

Now my undestanding is that the soft-start with PIR only works if you first power up the unit and then hit the switch with power, so you can't just pull the ground path ala M6, hence the 'trickery' involved to get power to the PIR. 

I haven't really figured out exactly how i would do that myself but i think petrov figured out exactly how to do it and it's similar but backwards from the hotdriver-m6 solution.. 

Plan for the HDM6 is this.. the battery pack will have a ground outside on the outer ring that goes into the light.. it will either hit the base inside or will have a sweeping contact that slides down the inside (so that it can float on the center spring of the lamp assembly and not have to reach the bottom). The Vbat+ will only be internal to the integral pack.. and the ground which goes through a spring to the tailcap will only connect when the cap is turned on or pressed. grounding only the driver, since the lamp is always grounded. 

The hotdriver and PIR are fundamentally different in where the FET is.. the hotdriver uses a voltage multiplier internally to be able to gate the FET higher votlages than Vbat, so the FET can be on the + side of the lamp, hence common ground is the way it works.. the PIR uses a floating ground and common V+.. but it's really nice that the switch is +.. i think you can do exactly the same thing but reverse the polarity.

One thing that is extremly nice about BOTH of these solutions.. the center rod would be switched by the FET.. and will be a non-conductor when the regulator is off.. which means no short-circuit worry when the pack is sitting, say in your pocket.. it'll be easy enough to protect the circuit board itself with some kapton tape or epoxy or the likes. 

I only have one PIR at this point, but i have a couple more on the way, so there is a very good chance i can actually make a PIR-M6 within the next couple of weeks to showcase how it will fit, etc. Always seems funny to me to be 'sleeping with the enemy' but fair is fair, the PIR is an excellent product that i would buy myself (and actually might inspite of the fact) that i make the only competition to it. There are times when the hotdriver is not at all a good solution, and those are the times when the PIR shines.. great to have an alternative. 

One really neat possibilty with PIR is to use 3x17670 and run from 10.8V source.. that way you can run the LOLA more like 7.4-7.6V and hola at 6.8V, where my solution runs the LOLA a little lower than normal.. 7.2v.. with some very clever engineering.. it would also be possible to get the bigger pack (17500x6) wired into 3x2 vs 2x3 wiring and get the best of both worlds with PIR.. jsut a lot more complicated.. that's the rub.. both are doable, but it's definitely more complicated to get the PIR working in the M6.. worth the effort, absolutely. 

The main problem will be height restrictions.. the hotdriver works well in the M6 because just by coincidence the center is clear of all components so i can drill a hole right through the center and it becomes the 'back board' of the battery pack.. looking at the PIR.. swapping to a DPAK fet will get the room on that side easily.. the FET could also ala the M6-R be 'remote mounted' if needed.. especially since it doesn't need a lot of heat-sinking. There is a tiny component or two that would have to be moved to get the 2.5mm hole through the middle to mount the PIR in-line with the pack with minimum height.. and i would maybe relocate the one tall device from the back side to the front side where the capacitor was to go.. is that an inductor? ... som small holes drilled through and some small wires like 24ga or 30ga wire depending on if lamp current goes through that device would shave a precious mm or more. come to think of it.. i think the best solution for the PIR-M6 using the stock PIR woudl be to just use an add'l PCB for the 'backer'.. and drill a hole right where that part is.. it puts the LEDs on the wrong side though, so the jury is still out on that one. 

depending if there are traces under that one capacitor? in the dead center, it should be possible to drill a hole there and re-locate that cap with some tiny wires.. so now i'm leaning toward this.. "FET side" against the bat, pack.. remote mount the FET. build a 'standalone' pack that the PIR just gets glued to once the pack is made.. and use the likes of a 'ring' lug to attach Vlamp - although with DPAK FET it might fit right up inside the center like the modified hotdriver for the M6. There are a few ways to get wires routed around or through the board since the KIU holes will not be used.. so it's looking very very promising. 

-awr


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## andrewwynn (Apr 2, 2006)

Oh.. almost forgot:

I've hammered out a farily solid timeline:

15 april: finish the first prototype
16 april: open orderline (BST) for the units
18 april order the metal parts
25 may receive metal from shop
29 may start shipping in LOTS.. will probably have all the packs fully assembled by mid-may since the batteries and electronics will come much much faster.

As it turns out the metal part due to it's being lathed not cnc-milled and much less complicated than all the other parts i've been designing.. has like a 18 work-day shorter turnaround.. 26 days vs 44 days typical.. so these things can be in people's hands quite quicker than i'd have ever expected. 

I need to get the prototype working to figure out the difficulty of labor (for Leigh to pull off the production).. but it looks like we will have time to get all the packs made by the time the metal caps are back from machining, which is fantastic.

-awr


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## diggdug13 (Apr 3, 2006)

Andrew,

if you are able to stay on that timeline or someting close to it, I'll be all over this but I"m moving in July and I don't know were yet.... sooooo I'm in for 2 still.


doug


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## js (Apr 4, 2006)

OK. I just made a post to my M6-R order and information thread.

The short of it is that I would like to back out of all remaining M6-R orders and refund money. AWR has graciously offered to give M6-R people priority on the HD-M6 list, and to make things easy, I can just send your money right over to Andrew.

I believe that the HD-M6 is a superior solution in every way and I give it my approval and recommendation.

***

Andrew,

I thought the end-of-cycle voltage for Li-ion was 3.0 volts? Or are you saying that the pack goes from 3.4 or so to 3.0 very quickly?

But, regardless, however it happens, it's totally cool that the HD-M6 stays in regulation for so long on the HOLA. Awesome, andrew. Awesome.

I never would have modded the SF M6 LOTC *laugh*. But in this case, it yields the very best rechargeable M6 solution yet.


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## js (Apr 4, 2006)

AWR,

Forgive me if this info has been posted elsewhere, but I was wondering:

What is the recharging solution for this pack? Does it come apart for each cell to be individually charged? Or will you be offering a charging solution that will charge the whole pack? Or is it simply up to those who buy the pack to figure that out on their own?

Obviously, someone with a Trtion or Schulze could just charge a 3p2s Li-ion pack straight up, but what about the hot driver? Can a person charge through that?

In short, what's the deal with charging an HD-M6?


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## LuxLuthor (Apr 4, 2006)

js said:


> I believe that the HD-M6 is a superior solution in every way and I give it my approval and recommendation.


 
That is one helluva endorsement!! 

Yeah, a nice charging solution would be icing on the cake. I'm reminded on how much I love using these FM 2D lights with the tailcap charger plugs.

LOL....js...how far I've come since that first thread you helped me with.


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## andrewwynn (Apr 4, 2006)

JS, i'm sure other people have the same query about LiON and 3.0V.. 

here is a graphic representation of a typical LDO solution with LION:







the 'cliff' as it were starts at about 3.50V.. by the time 3.45V rolls around you'll be at 80% brightness.. 3.40V, 60% brightness. it really just 'drops like a rock'. There is no appreciably energy or power left once LiON cells reach 3.45V.. most of my experiments or measurements have concluded that the 2nd derivitave is already zero by 3.45V (means that the voltage is already in free-fall around the corner.. a straight line drop in V)... it will slow (pos. 2nd derivitave) after the voltage gets to maybe 3.1 and will slowly peter out to nothing down to 2.5V, but there is no substantial energy.. you can use it to light a night light. 

There is a possibility of using smaller cells and maintaining a 'zero change' on the tailcap. My packs will include the metal part to replace inside YOUR tailcap that you can change back if you ever want to turn you M6 back to 100% stock. Somebody that just really wanted to keep their M6 stock.. i can work on a NiMH solution that uses GP2000 cells and will do an incredible job, just for something like 23 minutes vs 40ish minutes.

For recharging, i use the batteryspace LiON smart-charger.. they cost about $25 and quite a deal.. they charge kinda slow (500mA) so i consider it an 'overnight' charge with a pack of this magnitude. 

The charging connection will not be where the lamp is connected, there will be a different terminal, probably a post or a small charging jack i've not figured out for sure how i'll do that yet (usualy i have a small wire loop i clip onto with the alligator clips that are standard with the charger). 

There is no room for the FM style charging jacks.. but a possibility of a mini molex type of connector. 

-awr


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## brightnorm (Apr 4, 2006)

Andrew,

Please count me in. My two concerns, which echo previous posts are that the HD-M6 be absolutely safe (protected cells, etc) and that the charging method be as simple as possible. Charging my M6-R and USL with the Hi-Tec is very quick and convenient. I would also hope that ample beta-testing will precede sales.

A package deal that includes your LiON charger of choice with fast charge capability that can recharge the entire pack at once would be especially attractive to the non-modder Flashaholics who would like a neat, simple and safe package version of this excellent creation.

Brightnorm


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## MSaxatilus (Apr 4, 2006)

AWR,

Please put me down for one of these awesome packs!!! I will be watching this thread intently!

Thanks for doing these.

MSax


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## mdocod (Apr 4, 2006)

a pair of unprotected C sized cells (if someone could source them), or protected C size cells with pretty high current threshold, would be ideal for this... a pair of them would be shorter by a few mm than the 2(3)x17500 solution, might make fitment a bit easier. maybe if C cells come to fruition over the next few months, we'll see some unprotected cells available. Would imagine that 4AH is possible in that size without a PCB. Could probably see HOLA runtime over 45 minuts.


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## wquiles (Apr 4, 2006)

mdocod said:


> a pair of unprotected C sized cells (if someone could source them), or protected C size cells with pretty high current threshold, would be ideal for this... a pair of them would be shorter by a few mm than the 2(3)x17500 solution, might make fitment a bit easier. maybe if C cells come to fruition over the next few months, we'll see some unprotected cells available. Would imagine that 4AH is possible in that size without a PCB. Could probably see HOLA runtime over 45 minuts.


I tried two "C" size cells in my SF M6, and with the shorter tailcup, they fit great 

Will


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## ths11 (Apr 4, 2006)

Looking nice, Andrew! :goodjob:
Count me in for one when they become available.

Have you thought about the extension tube / 2D Li-ion setup that was suggested a while ago? ( link , post #13)


On the other hand, the nano people are getting restless.



andrewwynn said:


> I've hammered out a farily solid timeline:
> 
> 15 april: finish the first prototype
> 16 april: open orderline (BST) for the units
> ...


If only the nanos had a timeline too... (sigh)


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## js (Apr 4, 2006)

LuxLuthor said:


> That is one helluva endorsement!!
> 
> Yeah, a nice charging solution would be icing on the cake. I'm reminded on how much I love using these FM 2D lights with the tailcap charger plugs.
> 
> LOL....js...how far I've come since that first thread you helped me with.



I wanted to qualify my statement and say a few words on the notion of improving on SureFires.

First of all, modesty aside (false or otherwise), every one of the 36 M6-R packs that I have made so far is a small work of art and an absolutely top notch piece of craftsmanship. I swear that I never went to pack up and ship out one of these that I didn't have a brief moment of regret at sending it off. From top to bottom, all components and design aspects are the best I could make them or get them. I'm pretty damn proud of my M6-R packs. And they are a total drop-in, which is what I wanted. If anyone remembers, I read AWR's suggestion of modding the LOTC with real horror. I never would have done it.

And, with the new IB 1400 2/3A cells, an M6-R pack will get 24 or 25 minutes of fully regulated runtime.

So, I suppose that I really don't think that the HD-M6 is superior in _every_ way. LOL!

But the very fact of an M6-R pack being a pretty serious piece of craftsmanship also means it's a total time sink to make any quantity of them. This is a serious draw back for all but the lucky few who got theirs early.

And, I mean, come on, in the last analysis what does it matter that an M6-R is a small work of art? That doesn't matter to the filament or the beam or the runtime. The HD-M6 runs longer--twice as long, and the HD-M6 can be made faster, cheaper, and more efficiently. That counts for a LOT in this game. A lot.

And so what if the M6-R is a total drop-in and the HD-M6 needs a LOTC mod? If the mod is simple to do and reversible, no problem! It's a triumph that AWR managed to get 6 17500's in there and make them work with a pretty minor LOTC mod. I would have bet money that he wouldn't have been able to do it without totally hacking and jury-rigging the tail cap. But he did it. Props. Major props.

And don't even get me started on the whole simple fact of CPF life that so many many people buy something like an M6-R or HD-M6 or USL and just let it sit on a shelf for 6 months or a year. I had an email from someone who bought an M6-R early on who six months later was just getting around to giving it its' first charge. You can imagine how I felt about THAT. Li-ion is better for the average CPFer. Someone like myself or AWR or bwaites or SilverFox or LEO can be trusted with NiMH, but most people probably shouldn't have NiMH lights.

Or maybe not. I'm probably overstating things due to still being annoyed about the situation. Forgive me anyone if I have offended you.

So, anyway, those are the reasons why I gave the HD-M6 my imprimatur, so to speak, and why I think it is a clearly superior solution. But I don't mean in saying this to denigrate my own work. People will find it very hard to beat it for a complete drop-in solution.

Finally, as for the question of improving SureFires, well, in one sense, yes, of course you can. Few if any production items simply couldn't be improved on. The very fact of them being PRODUCTION items probably ensures that.

But, really, if you think about all the SureFire lights and that the vast majority of them use CR123A batteries, it should dawn on you that there MUST be a reason for it. Take The Beast, for example: 20 123's in a 4x5 configuration! Why? Wouldn't it be better to make it Li-ion rechargeable?

Well, obviously not. Otherwise SF would have done that. It's intended use and those who are intended to use it must have their reasons for wanting 123's.

The SF M6 was *not* designed with CPFers in mind, even LEO & S&R. Paul Kim and Willie Hunt and the rest of the SureFire people are damn smart and flashlight savvy people. They get to play with lights and batteries and lamps and LED's and reflectors *for a living*. There is nothing we have thought of that they haven't already considered and researched. Trust me on this.

The design of the SF M6 almost certainly could NOT be improved upon, given all the considerations and requirements extant at the time of its design.

As I said, I'm pretty damn proud of my M6-R packs, and that I was the first person to make the M6 rechargeable (and regulated to boot), but I was never under any illusions that I was doing anything that SF couldn't have done, and done better. Trust me when I tell you that SF is several steps ahead of most of us when it comes to _production lights_ and their design.

Because it's one thing to make a proto-type that kinda sorta mostly works on a good day when you fiddle with the tail cap just right, or as long as you wait 2 hours after charging before turning it on.

But set that same design loose on 100 random flashlight users and see what happens. As modders, we tend not to think very much along those lines.

It is my considered opinion that the stock SF M6 represents a cost-no-object pinacle of flashlight design. So there it is. Take it or leave it.


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## wquiles (Apr 4, 2006)

Fantastic post Jim :bow:

Will


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## diggdug13 (Apr 5, 2006)

ths11 said:


> Looking nice, Andrew! :goodjob:
> Count me in for one when they become available.
> 
> Have you thought about the extension tube / 2D Li-ion setup that was suggested a while ago? ( link , post #13)
> ...


 
They did


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## andrewwynn (Apr 5, 2006)

brightnorm.. i'm working out a deal for a choice between protected individual cells besides the built-in protection of the circuit as a whole (current limiting, planning on incorporating a fuse, over discharge protection). 

Charging will be a jack of some kind or some easy provision for using alligator clips. There will be a couple made a good month before any of the mass produced models so they can be tested, not to mention that there will be about 100 hotdrivers out there in very simlar solutions (and i should mention that one of the very earliest solutions for hotdriver is 6x17500 running the 1111 lamp.. just a little less current, and a little higher voltage). 

For fast-charge you'd need a pretty powerful charger like the triton or such.. the charger i'll recommend for most people will take overnight (i expect 7-8 hrs)... still quite convienent.

MSax.. the BST will start i hope on sunday. 

mdocod... if the D-size LiONs are really closer to 4.2AH, don't expect C-size to be 4.. but they could in-fact be close to 3, and be a simpler solution for this.. if C-LiONs come out rest assured that there will be a hotdriver wrapped around it for use in an M6. 

THS11.. i don't actually use or own an M6, so i've limited what i will do with the M6 to some extent, including that i won't be doing the actual production so that i can get back on track with nanos. 

Yeah i sure wish i could just make one nano and have somebody else copycat me. 

-awr


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## mdocod (Apr 5, 2006)

> mdocod... if the D-size LiONs are really closer to 4.2AH, don't expect C-size to be 4.. but they could in-fact be close to 3, and be a simpler solution for this.. if C-LiONs come out rest assured that there will be a hotdriver wrapped around it for use in an M6.



I was making an assumption that C sized li-ions could reach 4AH capacity in unprotected format in the near future- considering AW has a feeler thread running for protected C sized cells that he expects to be between 3.6-3.8AH in capacity, and emilion has a group buy thread going selling 5.2AH D cells... I was just assuming that C sized li-ions in the near furture, without the protection circuit taking up space, could be close to 4AH. But i've never tested these larger cells, so I have no idea if they are anywhere near their "claimed" capacity.


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## js (Apr 5, 2006)

There's also the SAFT 4/5D Li-ion cells. 3.6 AH, IIRC. But 6 17500's in a 3p2s configuration are probably on a par with what they could do.


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## WAVE_PARTICLE (Apr 5, 2006)

I will be looking for your B/S/T post! :thumbsup:


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## js (Apr 5, 2006)

wquiles said:


> Fantastic post Jim :bow:
> 
> Will



Will,

Thank you! I honestly expected a lot of fallout from my post, which I am so glad didn't transpire (not yet, anyway--hehe.)


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## cnjl3 (Apr 6, 2006)

I like your solution for the M6 and I will buy one for my M6 which has been collecting dust, but I do have a question. Sounds like your HD will be a part of the battery pack. If there is enough room in the M6 for the HD & batteries with your new tail cap modification – could the HD & batteries be separate? So you could change batteries as required instead of taking out the HD/battery pack and waiting for it to charge. Maybe a drop-in HD wafer either before or after the batteries? Anything is possible but would it be more trouble since we are talking about the same amount of room or do I need to wake up from my dream?


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## brightnorm (Apr 6, 2006)

I just called Surefire and the M6 tailcap (Part #13578-1) is still on back order for "5 or 6 weeks", which is exactly what I was told 5 or 6 weeks ago.

Brightnorm


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## dizzy (Apr 6, 2006)

js said:


> Will,
> 
> Thank you! I honestly expected a lot of fallout from my post, which I am so glad didn't transpire (not yet, anyway--hehe.)



I don't think you wil be getting any fallout for the simple fact that you put so much time and energy into your mod for the M6 and made alot of people very happy to own their M6's again after spending so much on batterys . If I had an M6 before I would have gotten your M6-R kit for sure. Since I now have an M6 on the way I will be looking for a rechargable option very shortly. I don't know that I would have even bought the M6 if I did'nt know about your rechargable kit before hand. It definetly makes the light alot more appealing knowing you don't always have to use 123's.

I as well as countless others appreciate your contribution to the M6 cause and you have no reason to feel bad about your post. You deserve all the credit for getting the whole M6-R ball rolling(possibly others that I'm not aware of).We are all indebted to your ingenuity and hard work on this project.You should be proud of your accomplishment! Thanks


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## wquiles (Apr 6, 2006)

what dizzy said :rock: 

Will


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## brightnorm (Apr 7, 2006)

When I originally reviewed Jim's prototype M6-R I knew and stated that this was a ground-breaking achievement, something that many "pundits" had declared to be impossible. Regardless of any future developments the M6-R may well remain unique in its use of a standard, unmodified M6 and its ability to immediately (11-20 seconds timed) field exchange M6-R and 6x123 packs. 

Andrew is to be congratulated on his work but Jim's M6-R will stand as a remarkable pioneering breakthough which, unlike many other original efforts, will continue to maintain its contemporary and future relevance.

Brightnorm


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## andrewwynn (Apr 7, 2006)

Absolutely agreed guys.. it's been sometimes an interesting roller-coaster between me and Jim, but i think it's fair to say that specifically because of due respect, we have always gotten to the bottom of things and never end up belittling anybody, rather in the end, being very encouraging of each other and our projects... For example.. Jim and Bill gave me some really good seeds of thought that ended up with the hotdriver having a temperature sensor to deal with overheating issues. 

In other news.. the batteries are here, i'm aiming to put together the first HDM6 tonight/tomorrow. I have an M6 host with the prototype replacement tailcup in the mail to me right now.. hope it comes tomorrow. 

Once the prototype is running and i can decide if it's possible to make a separate module for the driver vs the pack, i will open up an order line so we can get the machined parts in the queue and the battery cells on-order.. 

I didn't get the quote yet, but emilion 'won the bid'.. this time around.. normally I pit emil vs AW and dog-eat-dog.. they duke it out 'til i toss a coin to pick (love both those guys.. thanks for keeping it interesting and supplying CPF with awesome cells!).. emilion did a very sneaky preemptive strike by sending me some extra D LiON cells i my last order (ordered 8, got 10!).. very smart move to get some future orders 'cause that was specifically why the first 100-200x 17500s are coming from emilion.. 

I will be offering most likely both packs made from RAW cells and individually protected cells.. I can get custom circuits made so they won't have a shutdown problem even though they are run right about the normal max for LiON of 1.5C. 

In a straight series configuration like the 4D LiON, the hotdriver does in-fact act as a single-cell protection.. the math works out that even if 3 of 4 cells are fully charged.. that if just ONE cell is lower than 3V, the light won't come on.. very cool. The problem with the M6 solution is that the cells are only TWO.. and what happens when ONE cell dies? it's going to kill the one in series with it as well. I'm looking into putting tiny fuses next to the batteries (or PTCs).. the good news is that with the metal work taking long enough.. PCBs can be made in 1/3 the time, so i will have time to perfect any fine-tuning of the battery pack in the meantime. 

If things go well this weekend.. expect a BST to open up by wednesday. 

For people willing to cut their tail cup, i might work out a discount w/o the tail cup, and they could start shipping within about a month.. it will be just about two months start to finish once the ball is in motion for the first 20-30 packs.. maybe 10 per week after the first 30 are done.. i have no idea what the demand is going to be yet, but anticipating perhaps 20 to 30 orders pretty quick, which will be good.. i need enough interest to get enough of the metal parts made (buying 1 costs $120).. and if i get interest for 20-30 i can get 100 made to start to keep the price down. 

I don't have the quote yet on the battery prices.. but if i remember correctly, i could use the sabah 1000 mAH cells and with the complete pack and tailcup sell them for $95 +5 or $100 even.. with AW or Emilion cells.. i think the spreadsheet worked out to $105 for the unprotected and maybe $115 for the protected cell version.. i'm hoping i can get a good enough price on the cells to knock that down to $100 and $110.. I didn't follow the M6-R from the beginning so not aware of the price, but thought it was about that.. i'm aiming that it would be at worst a no-cost swap from JS's pack to mine, and if it's 'close' i will call it even. 

that's it for now.. more as progress happens.

-awr


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## wquiles (Apr 7, 2006)

Great update Andrew 

I sent my M6 with the prototype tailcup along with both the MN20 and MN21 bulbs, so you will be able to test both combinations - this willl be a great pack indeed 

Will


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## dizzy (Apr 7, 2006)

As soon as my M6 arrives, I will be in for one of your HDM6's. Hope the test goes well.

Glad to see that you and Jim are on good terms. Keep up the good work!


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## RAF_Groundcrew (Apr 8, 2006)

andrewwynn said:


> .. and if i get interest for 20-30 i can get 100 made to start to keep the price down.


Shouldn't be a problem getting that level of interest..... Is this going to be an ongoing B/S/T when it is rolled out?


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## andrewwynn (Apr 8, 2006)

yes a BST will be started and a link in this thread of course.. should be about wed of next week when i have enough ducks in a row to get the order going. 

I will point out unlike the 'forever' project aka nano, which finally has some real hope of near completion.. the real-world projects like hotdriver are ground-up designed for simplicity of contruction.. the average turnaround time for the hotdriver was 26 days and that includes the fact i had to order the circuitboards and wait 2 weeks for them to come in.

I've decided that i'm going to make the vTwo version of the circuitboard to make the HDM6 project.. it will shave a few minutes off of each one in production plus as a bonus i'll not forget to check the silkscreen option on the bottom of the board so i'll get a pretty label on them.. means a pretty fair chunk of profits since i still have over 250 of the vOne circuit boards, but they will still get used.. only really the 100W and HDM6 hotdriver really benefit from the vTwo model.. there are only minor differences.. mostly to make it more compatible with the M6 and current limiting.

I have the modular solution all worked out i just don't know if there is enough depth inside the light to make it happen.. i'll be kinda sad if i can't get it to work (fit) now that i have the mechanics completely figured out how to assemble it.. that extra 3.5mm required to make it modular could be a deal-breaker.. 

Fortunately.. i just moments ago figured out where i can get at least a mm or two.. i'm betting the environmental o-ring seals have more than 1-2mm overlap.. and since i'm making a replacement innner tailcup.. i can make the contact edge taller and the inner cup deeper... it's still very very tight, belllleeveme. 

Right now.. it's looking like a very fair chance.. there will be NO tailcap spring.. or.. maybe one thats only purpose it to stop battery rattle when the LOTC is 'LO'.. but by the time it's turned on far enough to make contact.. there is a very good chance the battery pack will be 'bottomed' out into the tailcap since the spring on the bulb is pretty darn strong (dunno if any of you realized how tough that bugger is).. it keeps the MB20 floating in space.. brilliant stuff how things like to 'float' inside an M6.. very shock resistant! 
just keeps getting better.

Thanks to LUNA for pointing me to a place that will sell pre-fab copper discs and a metal punch for putting holes in them... 

I am 95% certain that i just made a BUNCH of people's day. 

I figured out a way to make the driver a 'module' that works independant of the battery pack! what does it all mean Basil? It means.. if you want two packs.. you need one driver that gets moved from pack to pack.. it might make the first pack just a little bit (and i mean a little bit.. maybe $5-10 more expensive.. but the second and more packs.. muuuuch cheaper.. close to 1/2 price.. 

Prices are not set yet, but if things work out with supply and labor.. the prices are estimated to be:

$105 for the starter kit.. $70 for add'l battery pack (wow that's kinda cool.. my initial guesses for an M6 rechargeable pack was $75 for unregulated, $100 for regulated).. 

Upgrade from raw cells to all protected cells.. add $10.. $115 and $80.

This method saves $35 per add'l pack.. same price as buying a raw hotdriver you can build into a flashlight.. and also unmarries the batteries making it a lot easier to maintain/charge etc. 

Ok.. the design is 95% done, the parts are sourced.. as long as things work well with setting the limits and the pack behaves.. things are looking very very up.. i'm really excited about the concept of the swappable battery pack.. now rather than paying $230 for two packs, it would be $195.. 

Well that was a pretty productive night.

-awr


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## RAF_Groundcrew (Apr 8, 2006)

So, what runtime are these forecast to turn out, with a 500 lumen lamp? Does the protected/ unprotected nature of the cells affect the overall 'playtime' of the pack?


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## andrewwynn (Apr 8, 2006)

protected cells should have no effect on the runtime.. the internal cell is the same.. there is some loses on the prot. circuit but that just means less heat on the FET that would be spilling the excess.. the nominal voltage is like 7.2V ont he cells and 6.8V on the lamp.. so .4V needs to be lost somewhere.. if .1V gets lost on the prot. circuit means only .3 needs to be burned off as heat on the FET.. since the internal prot. of the cells is so ludicrously lower than i'd ever run a LiON battery it'll never kick in until cells start failing. 

The 'raw calculation' of runtime looks like this:

3.3AH pack divided by 4.9A x 60 min/H = 40.4min.. the reality is typically LiON cells that size will have 90% of their rated capacity, so 36 minutes is probably a safe bet.. fair enough to round to 'just about double' or just saying 'double the runtime'. The vast majority of that runtime will be in regulation.. consider that the cells will hold about 3.5V/cell 'til 90% depleted.. that means 7.0V and still 0.2V overhead.. 

The light will be closer to 600L btw.. 500 is the concervative estimate including the dimming that happens with the stock battery pack. 

-awr


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## andrewwynn (Apr 11, 2006)

The Hotdriver M6 thread continues here. please keep generic questions about M6 recharagebles in this thread, so not to clutter the hotdriver m6 thread, i will monitor both threads. 

-awr


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## LuxLuthor (Apr 11, 2006)

I had to at least make a feeble gesture at challenging something in your post, Jim, just because you expected it so much! LOL!

*QUOTE=js...So, anyway, those are the reasons why I gave the HD-M6 my imprimatur, so to speak.../QUOTE*
​That was a word I never heard of....kudos! I have a personal policy to always look up any word I don't know.

*QUOTE=js...Finally, as for the question of improving SureFires, well, in one sense, yes, of course you can. Few if any production items simply couldn't be improved on. The very fact of them being PRODUCTION items probably ensures that.*

*But, really, if you think about all the SureFire lights and that the vast majority of them use CR123A batteries, it should dawn on you that there MUST be a reason for it. Take The Beast, for example: 20 123's in a 4x5 configuration! Why? Wouldn't it be better to make it Li-ion rechargeable?*

*Well, obviously not. Otherwise SF would have done that. It's intended use and those who are intended to use it must have their reasons for wanting 123's.*

*The SF M6 was *not* designed with CPFers in mind, even LEO & S&R. Paul Kim and Willie Hunt and the rest of the SureFire people are damn smart and flashlight savvy people. They get to play with lights and batteries and lamps and LED's and reflectors for a living. There is nothing we have thought of that they haven't already considered and researched. Trust me on this.*

*The design of the SF M6 almost certainly could NOT be improved upon, given all the considerations and requirements extant at the time of its design. /QUOTE*
​The only thing I question in all of your gushing SF accolades is overlooking the profit incentive of designing the M6 &/or Beast to ONLY use the very expensive disposable 123a's. In a combat "special ops" situation which is where the "M" series is displayed on their website, obviously 123a's make sense.

However, IMHO, since they are selling the "special ops - M series" lights to the general public, there is not a good technical/engineering reason to withhold a separate drop-in rechargeable option, other than it having a negative impact on sales of their 123a's. 

*I figure at $1.75 each + shipping, you are looking at $12 for every 20 minutes of light.* 

I'm sure their marketing department has calculated that using the M6 for only 12 hours, will have generated more in battery revenues than the entire retail cost of the light. I also find it just a bit curious that they only ship the M6 with the High Output MN-21 (20 min run time) lamp, and cannot even give an estimate of when the MN20 (lasting 60 mins) will be available.

I agree with you from an engineering perspective regarding the talent pool and experience among SF engineers/designers...but you have to include the for profit motivation, and impact from the sales/marketing departments on any overall discussion of any company product(s), regarding what is offered to the general public. 

When you tie together the recent hefty 123a battery price increase, the mysterious unknown delivery of MN-20 bulbs, and the accomplishments of your M6-R & Andrew's HDM6 plans...it is pretty obvious to me that someone at SF decided not to make a rechargeable drop-in option for non-technical reasons.

I'm sure most who buy a special ops series light keep it for tens of years, or even their entire lifetime. It doesn't take an MBA from Harvard to do a quick 123a battery revenue calculation on what that purchase will generate over the years of ownership. Military sales are likely even more locked into using their SF batteries. Other than this whole marketing/profit aspect as it applies to general public sales, I agree with everything else you said about SF.


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## andrewwynn (Apr 11, 2006)

I just posted on the new HDM6 thread that i've solved all the issues i was working on.. and that since the space is so tight it would be possible to exclude the possibility of fitting a PIR into the fix.. but that i'm going to work best i can to fit one in.. most likely would have to swap the FET to D2PAK to make it a reality but it's doable..

In response to LuxLuthor.. 

There is only ONE thing you are overlooking, 'cause i did as well.. Power output of a battery is MAXIUMUM at 50% efficiency.. When you pull power out of a battery at the point where 1/2 of the power goes to heating the battery.. it is also the point where you can pull out the most power.. i'm very confident that this factored heavily into the design of the beast and the M6. 

Like mentioned before, yes it really seems stunningly illogical to use or even produce a light that costs $30-105/hr to operate (plus lamp expense.. figure atnother $3/hr).. but i'm sure they were working on maximizing power not efficiency in the result they came up with. 

The next step.. is that.. most people use a flashlight a few minutes/month.. if they had a solution even like the M6-R.. they will be very very disappointed the 2nd or 3rd time they go to use the light and it's dead 'cause of self-discharge.. the M6 will sit on a shelf with stock batteries for a year or 5 and light up bright as the sun.. it just costs 50 cents/minute to do it. 

The HDM6 is a great solution, IMHO better than the M6-R mostly because it has serious shelf-life.. you'll be able to leave an M6 with the HDM6 for 4-5 months and it will still light up brigther than a standard M6 because there is voltage overhead it is fully-regulated.. and should get you over 40 minutes runtime based on the latest numbers i got from emilion. 

I had first made the estimation that the non-rechargeable solution with the M6 was a profit-motivated thing especially with SF selling the best value cells on the market.. people aren't going to buy duracells for $4-6 each if they can get SFs for $1.75. It's a tidy profit center for them for sure. 

The problem with going rechargeable is that means waaaaaayyy more maintenence nightmare for them.. they have a 'lifetime warranty'.. HDM6.. and MR-6.. well we'll warrant what we make and make a quality product.. but if 20 yrs from now you say 'hey my HDM6 stopped working'.. i'm not going to give you a replacment free... (though i probably would fix it for a very reasonable fee). I think that a LOT maybe MOST of why the M6 is not rechargeable has to do with that. 

In any event.. it could/should work out very well for me.. the HDM6 i'll put up against any other possible solution for clean, mean and efficient... i will like to see the PIR head-to-head.. there is enough voltage overhead on the HOLA that the PIR could have longer runtime than HD, and it would be a very good shootout. 

I will add in.. that once i put the HDM6 into the M6.. it made it 'fun to use' for me.. with about 1/2 the pressure to turn on the button, i no longer feel like it is made for a gorilla to operate.. and with soft-start.. not hammering that poor lamp with 20A spike (i didn't measure, just an estimate.. typically i measure about 4x running current). 

So.. there ya have it my 6 cents.


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## LuxLuthor (Apr 12, 2006)

LOL...well you certainly deserve to be listened to, and made a lot of good points in excess of 6 cents. 

I actually did consider some of your points, but the heart of your whole support for SF breaks down when I suggested that SF provide an optional drop-in rechargeable (regulated) solution like you and Jim are doing.

I did not mean to imply that the M6 should ONLY be rechargeable. Rather, you should be able to purchase a regulated drop-in package that also allows you to replace the battery cells, and charge it separately. Most enthusiasts would perhaps buy two rechargeable drop-in packs to swap out, or have the pack of 123a's as a backup.

My whole point is that if you and Jim have made a workable rechargeable package, then surely the experts at SF could do the same if the corporate suits gave the green light. The lifetime warranty would remain for the original light only. The drop-in rechargeable pack has no more warranty than any other drop-in item...or could be excluded if it was sold as a package similar to their warranty exclusion of bulbs.

I'm suggesting that SF's marketing department has done their job, and calculated battery useage over an owner's lifetime as a part of the profit estimate for their lights. My evidence to back up *my opinion* is the logic of such a profitable marketing strategy, the price increase of the 123a's, and the mysterious ongoing shortage of MN20 bulbs, forcing people (and the lucrative military contracts that you and I are also paying for) to open their wallets to the SF 123a Battery Deity. I'm also watching for the availability of individual tailcaps as your project develops...which I'm sure SF is aware of because it will impact their profits if it really catches on.

Of course I hope you are the only one that does this mod, and that you benefit mightily from it, and that SF doesn't figure out a way to short circuit your product which will impact their projected 123a lifetime profit strategy. You'll know you are bothering them if they change the design to prevent your pack from fitting...in addition to the spare tailcap delays.

My points were really only in response to Jim's gushing SF post which didn't address my three cents when he talked about SF choosing to not improve on the M6 design on the basis of what he thought were very well thought out technical/engineering decisions. I'm simply introducing the power of the Almighty Dollar into the fray.


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## andrewwynn (Apr 12, 2006)

I believe that the internal forces at SF to decide not to make the pack i'm making boils down to self-serving desires.. it's kinda the amrican way.. I mean.. why introduce more work for them that makes their overall bottom line less profitable? You and I would argue they will sell more M6s if they cost a penny an hour to run vs 3000x that amount.. but i'm sure they did their homework before making the decision. The fact that my pack will cost only like 15% more than the cost of the emtpy holder, the MB20 is a clear indication that SF could never produce the quality of pack i'm making for even DOUBLE the price, so i don't have a lot of fear that they would steal my thunder. Also.. they have nothing to lose.. my pack requires an M6, i don't make M6s.

Fortunately regarding the 'change the design' idea.. it would cost them way more money than for me to re-tool for a different design.. just like old and new mag Ds.. just would have to have a 'post change and pre change model. 

I believe the summary is.. using disposable CR123s is a horrible waste of money and resources (land fill stuffers).. and in this day and age, far more appropriate means of power are avaiable and should be used. 

As hard as it is for me to admit it.. SF's job is not really to serve us, it really is to serve them and their share holders.. it's NICE to come up with things that are better serving to everybody.. but like i mentioned.. most people really don't like rechargeable batteries.. since they self-discharge and most people do not use a light often enough to make a difference.

Simple example.. say you use your M6 5 minutes/week.. you'll burn through one set of primaries per month.. that's $1/day.. well to buy my pack means it takes only 4 months to pay for itself.. ok, now look at a low-use situation.. use 20 minutes over a year... now.. with my situation you'd have to take the pack out and charge it 4 times, basically once before each use.. but with primary cells, it will just sit and wait for you. 

I just invented the 9xAA Lithium 1331 3D.. specifically to fill a similar need.. the ultimate backup light.. 10 yr shelf life.. 800/500 Lumen.. 70+minutes runtime.. because most people would be better suited by that light than a rechargeable solution. 

I still think the M6 went overboard because of one major fault in the design.. it pulls too much current from the batteires to be used 'full burn'.. in my test the batteries self-destructed at 11 minutes.. that to me is clearly unacceptable.. had i been in-charge of the M6 production it would have had a slightly lower output bulb.. maybe 30 minutes of 400L that would not wreck the batteries if run full-burn. 

(oh, and of course.. have a rechargeable option you could buy for say $200). 

-awr


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## winny (Apr 12, 2006)

LuxLuthor said:


> Of course I hope you are the only one that does this mod ...



Why? So there will be high prices and nothing to choose between? 
I need to post more here and start taking orders too...


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## andrewwynn (Apr 12, 2006)

I don't think Lux meant that as a dig against winny.. it was against surefire.. I think that was just an oversight about the PIR being just as valid of a possibility as an M6 driver, i can't be bothered by the possibilty of 'brand loyalty' though :-D I have a PIR right here for dimensioning for fitting into an M6 with my revised tailcap.. The beauty is.. with the PIR working from 10.8V.. it can be done TODAY with a stock tailcap.. because unlike me, you can use 10.8V source .. 3x17670 gives you about 15WH.. about 20 minutes.. so not a boost in runtime, but can-do today is a big perk! 

Winny's really keeping the playing field level with his driver.. i love being mentioned as a 'motivating force' behind the PIR. 

-awr


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## winny (Apr 12, 2006)

Oh, I didn't mean to be that offensive... Just a little comment.

How much space is there inside the new tailcap? Is the size fixed or is it open for discussion if we would need 2 mm extra somewhere or so?

What's your current solution for the switch?

Damn right about the motivation. If you haven't speeded up your hotdriver sale in order to get a bigger cut of the market and people not sending me PMs about making the PIR available before the HD, I wouldn't have worked all my spare time with the PIR, seven days a week for the past 12 weeks or so.


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## andrewwynn (Apr 12, 2006)

i've lost a lot of sleep 'cause of PIR myself :-D i don't mind heathly competition at all. I still haven't sold as many hotdrivers as PIRs on CPF. 'First to sale' does count. 

I have the tailcap pretty much maximized right now.. any taller than the o-ring will be visible.. i will get you some dimentions... 

the body cavity including the tailcup.. absolute maximum of 107mm. 

my battery pack not including nuts on the ends... 101mm.. 
my battery pack including the nut on ONE end (one doesn't count.. it first into the hole where the bulb spring is). ... 103.6

hotdriver thickness: 4.14mm.. total.. 1.6mm board. 

hotdriver is designed to 'nestle' around the nut on one side of the battery pack.. so i need to add only 1.6mm to the thickness of the bat pack + nut = 105.2.. leaves me.. 1.8mm to spare.. whoo hoo.. 

looking at the PIR.. to get it down to the reguired height to fit in with a 17500x6 pack.. i would drill a hole in the copper plate on the battery pack so that one tall chip can fit through.. it will fit between batteries.. then i would of course swap to a DPAK (got it right this time).. transistor.. 

I just did a computer model of putting the PIR into an M6.. and my estimations show i can get it into 106.428mm.. talk about a squeaker! a few tenths can be gained by using thinner copper disks for the end plates.. i'm using 1.0mm and 0.8 would probably be fine, that nets you 0.4mm.. you can gain about another mm in an emergency by relocating the FET down beside the batteries like the M6-R.. 

So looks like it's "game on" on round two of the incandescent regulator battle :-D. 

I will release the dimensions of the tailcup at some point so that people wanting to lathe their own can do so. I will also sell the part by itself at some point, of course that won't happen 'til the HDM6 is shipping since that will be the bottleneck of getting them out. 

oops forgot about the switch.. well my first solution was probably closer to what you want.. you need to have power to the PIR before startup to have soft start work, correct? if so i think petrev showed the solution that PIR needs.. reverse poloarity of the body so that it is +.. the lamp - runs through the rod to the PIR.. a sweeping contact goes to the BODY from the Vbat+ on the PIR which is hard-wired to V+ on the battery pack (keeps Bat+ live on the regulator and the lamp).. then another spring contact (or probably like my hotdriver solution just a hard contact on the back of the regulator board.. ala the little tiny white wire on my prototype #1).. that goes to the switch. 

Now.. when the tailcap is pressed.. it pushes the whole battery pack into the light putting the tailcap in contact with the body.. this closes the switch from + on the body to the 'switch' contact on the PIR.. bingo.. let there be light. 

Now the job at hand for you.. you have to make a 2.6mm hole through the PIR.. two chips need to be relocated to do that (easy enough for a prototype use some 30ga wire).. then use a DPAK transistor shifted to the edge so that you can get a 5.5mm clearance for the bolt that holds the battery pack together. 

Since you have two sides populated.. it will make isolation and fitting more complicated.. i have 5.5mm clear on BOTH sides.. so that i can have a 2.5mm nut on each side.. if that is possible you should do that.. it makes it possible in my case to use the driver EITHER WAY.. chips in or chips out! 

Since i have 'tricks up my sleeve' how i build my pack.. i've already given more hints than any normal business guy would to his competition, so i'll withhold some of those details for now.. it's totally doable though.. and i'm not going to leave you hanging.. i'll make a PIR-based M6 i think with one of the 3 i have i'll just like i said relocate the chips.. maybe you can beat me to it.. i'm kinda busy. 

-awr


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## petrev (Apr 12, 2006)

Hi Andrew

How about this for the PIR1 version 

?





Turning it all around (just like you) 

Hot(NEG-Out) Hat on FET to bulb centre spring. Hot-Neg from centre leg of FET. 
Hopefully the FET wont get too hot from bulb or self !

Centre bar soldered at head end and then wired to Switch Input
Nut at Tail for SW contact

Head PCB copper ring -Neg.Batt and wired to PIR

Tail PCB copper ring +Common Slip contact to body and bar to head
wired to PIR +Batt In and bar extends through PIR to hit head of M6 in case of traumatic event ( or when tail tightened fully !)

I have some odd foam protectors to add to my prototype and anything else you think of

Any Thoughts and Comments as always

Cheers
Pete


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## LuxLuthor (Apr 12, 2006)

Winny, yeah Andrew was right that my comment was directed more towards hoping "the small guy" (Andrew) is well rewarded for his work. I'm not aware of anyone besides Jim and him that have done a complete drop in package for the M6, but the same would apply to you if you did one too.

Andrew, I'm not saying that SF should have made the M6 as a rechargeable light (since they also have the Dominator model), especially since you now see that it would be at their own 123a financial sales peril. The fact that they don't offer a non-warrantied drop in pack like you/Jim (? Winny ?) are doing, when combined with their lack of MN20's and new coincidental delay of tailcaps all underscores a corporate marketing decision...which is what any for profit company should be looking at first.

Again, I was just challenging Jim's paraphrased assertion several pages ago where he seemed to be making a point that if SF saw a good technical/engineering reason to improve the light (including offering a separate drop in rechargeable mod), they surely would have done it. However, his thinking was not taking into account the negative impact on 123a sales....which I suspect are quite high among government/military employees who are not paying for batteries out of their own pocket.

I can only imagine how many crates of hundreds of thousands of 123a's the U.S. (and other) Government must order from them...to sit on shelves in emergency shelters, and depots all over.


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## andrewwynn (Apr 12, 2006)

more complicated than necessary.. it could be done but i'm not sure how you're planning to hold it all together.. the only reasonable way i can figure is to use a bolt through the center with nuts on either end.. it has to be the center because both the tailcap and the bulb spring hole allow the space for the 1.8mm thickness of the nut. 

I'm trying to figure out if there is a way to do it w/o the power rod going top to bottom... ok i think i figured it out. 

you have it backwards.. the PIR needs to be at the tailcap.. works like this:

On the head-end, has a copper disk to short all bat+ together.. a sweeping contact to the wall tough enough to carry 5A goes there.

There is a center rod to carry the Bulb (-) back to the PIR at the tailcap side, also to hold the pack together. The whole pack floats on the lamp spring. 

On the tailcap side.. their is another copper disk to ground all the bat negs.. there is a hole for that one tall chip.

Now the PIR.. i was trying to decide.. should we use a sweeping contact for PIR power, or a wire and the answer is YES, use sweeping contact (second one).. because then if you pull it out of the lamp it shuts off! cool huh? (you could also put on a tiny switch instead.. that might be more reliable than a second sweeper). 

Drill a hole through the PIR in the center.. 2.6mm.. remove the two components that won't clear and re-locate with small wires.. winny might help if we can't follow the traces. 

Re-locate a smaller FET toward the outer edge.. but check this out.. the center cut-off lead is the DRAIN (oops i had source), which goes to the center.. you might be able to work out a springy contact so it just touches the top of the rod going to the lamp.. else.. when PIR is re-done.. i would most certainly make the center hole connected to the FET DRAIN! 

The PIR will be clear in the center on the FET side for 5.5mm to put on the nut to hold it all together. 

I would use some silicone sheet to hold the PIR away from the copper disk, with holes cut where the chips are.. it should handle plenty of force with it spread out. 

Put the PIR with FET side 'out' of the light.. and bolt it through the pack to the other side.. up to you to figure out how to insulate the rod.. dead-shorts = not good. If you used PCB then it's easy to isolate.. look at my battery pack solutions.. however.. not enough room for full 1.6mm PCB x 2.. my math is done with 1mm copper disks.. you can use 1mm thick PCB to isolate thigns, but more work in getting current paths then. 

Ok.. so the last thing is a tiny little sweeper contact or possibly just solder bump from the SW in to the tailcup.. the bat pack and tail cup will be in contant contact.. and when the tailcap is turned on.. it makes contact with the body and brings Bat+ to the switch contact.. 

In regards to shock isolation.. there might be 1mm to spare.. you could probably put a rubber cylinder into the hole in the back that holds the PIR and bat pack into the light.. and then you need the switch contact to be a spring.

Good luck, it'll be more work than the HDM6 for sure, but i was able to hack together a Hotdriver inluding cutting traces, drilling hole, patching traces with 30ga wire.. inside of 90 minutes. 

-awr


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## petrev (Apr 12, 2006)

Thanks Andrew

Like yours the above system uses the sweeper(s) for power and the rod is only for PIR power. Your solution is neat with the auto switch off on removal if a second sweeper is used for PIR power.


Would be lovely (and agree prob only long term solution) to drill centre hole but I just can't see half the traces that must be there somewhere !

By smaller I take it you mean thinner ( smaller also good ) - do you have any of them or a part number I can look into finding.

The above also uses the centre FET Source leg.

Yes - its all about finding the best variation on a theme.


Cheers Pete


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## andrewwynn (Apr 12, 2006)

the problem i see with the design you came up with is height.. how do you propose to attach the battery pack together? It could be possible to make with PCBs and solder the center rod.. thread the other side and stay within the limits of height w/o modifying the PIR at all, but using the tricks you came up with.. i'm workiing on a solution that can be worked into a mass production solution vs one-off.. The solution you have would work nicely. 

Note also.. that the center rod would not touch the tailcup.. there is a 9mm hole about 6mm deep in the center.. the contact needs to be offset from the center. 

I'm just noticing that you actually solderd right to the center leg of the FET for that bulb contact.. that's not a bad solution at all actually.. there is real merit to your proposal... in-fact swapping the FET to DPAK might just make the FET dead-center.. take a piece of copper clad, cut a 'foot' onto one side bend down to the Drain of the FET (oops i said source on the last post).. the "Positive" 'gosin'.. etc. 

Just looks like some real tricky engineering to make it all work.. mine is designed for supreme simplicity.. that is by far the most important lesson i've learned from the nano project.. make it as dirt simple to MAKE!.. estimated assembly time is 5 minutes for the HDM6 once the parts are prepped. 

For a one-off.. your non-drilling solution should work out peachy fine.. use some silicone sheet or foam pad to pack the PIR before attaching to the battery pack.. it's most certainly doable for a one-off.. 'I'll race ya'. 

-awr

-awr


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## petrev (Apr 12, 2006)

Hey 






The bit of copper I made this afternoon

I would prefer a lot more simplicity - but . . .

As far as the race goes I think you might just win as I have no 17500s so mine is a theory piece using LIR123s

Cheers Pete


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## winny (Apr 12, 2006)

My god you guys make long posts!

First, petrev, my god you draw well! This helps out the discussion a lot!


awr,

You can't follow the routes in the PCB and drill a hole because it uses four layers so the two in the middle can't bee seen without x-ray or a high powered lamp.
The solution I can think of is to redesign the PIR using shorter components and locating all the tall ones on the same side. Furthermore, we might want to make sure all connections are located where they should be located so the assembly/installation will be as easy as possible.
All of this depends on the demand. Making new PCBs costs money and takes time. If it doesn't fit in the current configuration, perhaps people can live with a 1 or 2 mm longer tailcap and save them some money. I don't know...
Alexander sounds pretty eager to make new PCBs...  

So, to sum up your long post (I did read it, but didn't understand everything), where should everything be located for an as easy as possible installation?

I suppose you will use the 2S3P pack and drop regulation the last bit but would it be possible to build a series pack out of the same adapter? 3S2P would have been the best for us but 6S is way easier to build.


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## winny (Apr 12, 2006)

petrev,

:goodjob: 

I have discussed this further with Alex and if our datasheets are correct, we have just found the most vicious hack what will make awr shake from fea.... no, wait, that's not right. We may have found a way to cut down the number of components, the really expensive ones, so awr will have to watch out for a price war if this works out. :naughty: 

awr, what was your plan for a battery holder? Should we machineshop something that we both can use and save some money or do you have anything else planed?


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## petrev (Apr 12, 2006)

Hi Winny

AWR is best placed to advise on placements etc.

FOUR LAYERS - That explains why I couldn't see any traces.

My picture is of a Modamag 6AA kit heavily modified to a 2s3p pack ( I tend to agree with AWRs thinking All the Pos and Negs at the same ends mean you can save precious mm by using copper sheet) - in my final imagination it would be semi-depackable with a nut at the tail and then . . . I must work out how it all works a bit . . .

With a remodeling for simplicity AWR will be able to work it all out no doubt.

Thinner FET thingy - centre Bulb feed - thinner everything (!)
Little copper post could be bent up out of the nearest end piece to carry Batt neg to the PIR and . . . 

I'll leave the difficult stuff to AWR

For my ModaMag kit - well thats not really an issue.

Cheers Winny - Keep up the good work


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## petrev (Apr 12, 2006)

Hi Winny 

Our posts keep crossing . . . 

I'll just sit a while and read yours and AWRs posts 

Cheers

Pete


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## andrewwynn (Apr 12, 2006)

petrev, that copper bit is exactly what i invisioned.. unfortunately i think the D2PAK will never fit.. well.. you can do it with 3x17670 pack for sure, but not with 6x17500. 

winny.. the hotdriver m6 solution is designed that the battery pack is swappable.. i don't think that will be possible without a very serious re-design of the layout of the PIR.. but very minor differences will get you to where you can attach to a battery pack. 

I have a design complete for a series A and AA ->D pack.. the A size exactly fits into the M6 coincidentally (to fit into a D size, needs boring)... if you follow the descriptions how to modify the PIR it will bolt right on to my pack.. series or the solid copper disc version for parallel configuration. 

Ideally.. if you get it set up with a clearance of 6mm center on both sides.. and on the center pad is the Lamp - connection, the PIR will be directly compatible with my battery packs. 

I will be selling my packs for most likely $15 and $10 with purchase of another product, i.e. buy a hotdriver and a bat. pack and get $5 off. 

The problem with increasing the length of the tailcap is that the o-ring will become visible.. i've only added about 0.6mm to the total length of the light.. and that's just enough that when the tailcap is locked out you can just see the groove of the first o-ring.

Back to 'were to put stuff'.. put all the tall stuff on the 'inside' (toward the pack).. around the 6mm circle of the DMZ in the center. Put small stuff on the 'outside'.. include the LEDs so they can be seen.. note: you will be able to program the PIR while in the M6 with the wiring solution i recommend.. just using a bit of wire or anything conductive like a key or coin.. to act as the switch.. kind of a nice solution! 

I have a design for a 3S2P pack but it needs another PCB in the middle.. it's unfortunately too limited a need for me to spend resources on completing at this point.. to get to 10.8V the best option is 3x17670 but that looses a lot of watt-hour... 6S.. that's a scary amount of voltage, but would also be doable.. that would be a simple 'bolt on' with my A->D adapter.. it is a bit taller than my copper disk pack.. so you'd not be able to fit protected cells.. 

Not interested in a price war.. like i said.. keep 'em reasonably priced, but where some profit is still maintained.. right now i'm 'dead even' if that with hotdriver profits.. they were enough to buy the tools i use to make them.. did get some nice tools like the metcal soldering station, but not much went into food budget.

The battery holder is completely designed.. i will be ordering parts to make them very soon. Once i have parts to make them and can figure out pricing and such, i would not be against selling the raw packs that people can use as a jump-off-point to put the PIR on if you can get a hole in the center. 

So.. summary.. if you can get everything on one side.. and all components outside of the 6mm center.. and no component taller than 2.5mm.. you are 'golden' it's the same size as hotdriver and will just bolt right on. 

If you need a little more thickness,.. about 1mm can be saved if you scrap the removability.. the nut holding things together goes only on the outside of the driver board.. the reality is.. most people would only have one anyhow.. the only time you need to un-bolt is when you need to replace the cells. 

-awr


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## andrewwynn (Apr 12, 2006)

picture being worth 1000 words:







Not sure how to do it any way other than the bolt.. actually.. what you can do to use the current PIR.. is to solder the center rod to a PCB on the negative side.. but keep the nut on the + side. Good luck for somebody trying it.. it's possible, but this design only about 1mm to spare.. using 1mm thick copper disks.. switching to 1.6mm PCB on even one side will use more than 1/2 the available space. 

Somebody making their own tailcup.. could increase the rim on the outside, but they will make the o-ring visible esepcially in lock-out mode.

-awr


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## petrev (Apr 13, 2006)

Cheers AWR

Picture worth at least a thousand words -Ta.

Can anyone tell me the DPAK equivalent FET to use as a replacement ?
Getting lost in data sheets !

Would it be this one SUD50N04-05L N-Channel 40-V (D-S) 175C MOSFET 
seems similar ? or is there a specific direct equivalent (hopefully)

Space is just so tight . . .

Thanks for all the heads up hard work AWR

Pete


----------



## winny (Apr 13, 2006)

petrev,

Just about any N-channel MOSFET with a Vgs of 5 V or less (preferably 4.5 V or less) with as low Ron as possible should work fine.


----------



## petrev (Apr 13, 2006)

winny said:


> petrev,
> 
> Just about any N-channel MOSFET with a Vgs of 5 V or less (preferably 4.5 V or less) with as low Ron as possible should work fine.



?
http://www.vishay.com/docs/72786/72786.pdf
max40V
102A @Vgs 4.5
? low Ron 0.008 - 0.013

Vgs - Is that the Threshold Voltage to be lower than 4.5 ?
would this one work
http://www.irf.com/product-info/datasheets/data/irfr4104pbf.pdf

or some of these ? some have lower Ron chart values at lower Vgs
eg the first 2/3 N FET 20V ones 
http://www.vishay.com/mosfets/dpak-to-252-package/

let me know what is best - Thanks



Cheers Pete


----------



## andrewwynn (Apr 13, 2006)

the IRF 4104 was one of the modesls i had picked out.. but the 7843 was the one i ended up picking out for the hotdriver. (other than the 100W models). 

no doubt space is tight.. 

hey winny.. since i dont' have x-ray capability.. care to look into if any of the 4 layers have traces that will be destroyed by drilling through the center.. i have to assume it would be the case, just like with hotdriver.. i had to make two jumpers to fix the damage to traces after drilling the hole. 

-awr


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## winny (Apr 13, 2006)

petrev,

You found a good page there. Yes, any transistors with a Vgs of 4.5 V or lower should be fine. You might want some margins as well when it comes to Vds. If you make a 2P3S-pack, you want 15 V or more and if you make a 6S-pack, you probably want 30 V. After that you only want as low Ron as you can afford and is available.


----------



## andrewwynn (Apr 14, 2006)

hey winny.. how the hell do you regulate voltage with the FET on the wrong side of the lamp? Nch FETs are not known to prefer common hot solutions.. whatever you did.. clever doing it.. 'cause you don't need to boost voltage to get a gate drive... i have a very interesting solution for the FET on the negative side of the lamp as well.. using some interesting sneakyness of my own, but it's a bit of hack and i'm a little surprised it actually works! 

-awr


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## petrev (Apr 14, 2006)

Hi Guys

So its Easter over here in Blighty so no chance of DPAK and don't have a tail insert mod, and no 17500s . . .

So - Enough of the theory - I think I'll stick my bog standard PIR1 into my M6.

First dissassemble the modified ModaMag 6AA series carrier ( 3p2s-LIR123)

Re-Rewire the end pieces - Batt+ on 2 of the side bars - All three bars fitted with slip contacts ( cheers AWR that puts +Batt on one bar only when inserted into M6 to power-up the PIR1.)

-Batt at the tail with the PIR next and then an end piece for the switch contact.

Regulated -Bulb sent to the head via the centre bar.

Solder it all up - Put back the tiny tiny little resistor next to -Batt in (!) that moved around a bit during soldering with my medium tip 25W Antec iron ( the only one I have )

Stick a meter here and there to check I haven't cross wired or shorted any thing - OK ?

Stick in the Batteries and insert carrier into M6.

Bloody Heck - Hold the M6 in your left hand and touch the tail pad with your right index finger and on goes the M6 - contact through your skin ! ! !

IT WORKS - Blip ON - Blip OFF - Hold In and we get full Power ( Thanks Winny for leaving in low power mode for delivery - And Thanks for setting M6 power settings for me )

Not going to get massive run-time from LIR123s but I can at least get used to the PIR1 while I wait for all the parts and AWR and Winny's hard work to come to fruition.

Cheers Guys.


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## wquiles (Apr 14, 2006)

Most excellent project - great photos as well 

Did you considered 3x 17670 cells in series as an alternate?

Will


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## Leef (Apr 14, 2006)

Whoa! Way too much info and options. Nevertheless...

 Count me in for one. I'll keep an eye on the BST forum.


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## andrewwynn (Apr 14, 2006)

is that a bent open fuse clip? I use the same exact thing time to time.

what will said about 17670s.. 

-awr


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## petrev (Apr 15, 2006)

Yes - 
Bent UK-Plug Fuse holder

and 

Yes -
3x17670 an option but only have 2 and didn't know if it is advisable to draw 5A from them ! Can always rewire it again if needed. Anyway this is just a stopgap solution until all the better ones arrive, but thought I'd share anyway.

Now then . . . 

AWR ? any ideas on mounting an Osram 35w in an old MN21 as my one-and-only just went Phutt ! Hope its not a problem with my system as everything looked lovely up till then ( Nice Soft Starts - Nice 2power levels - Nice new feature Lock Out Tail prevents accidental Switch OFF ! )
Checking with Winny that all is OK.

Anyway - No Bulb to play with, and its holidays, and I'm in England, and . . . 

Got some bodging time and a spare 64275 so any ideas 

Thanks Pete


----------



## winny (Apr 15, 2006)

This thread evolves way faster than I can keep track of. Phew...



andrewwynn said:


> hey winny.. since i dont' have x-ray capability.. care to look into if any of the 4 layers have traces that will be destroyed by drilling through the center..



I can do that when I get back to Gothenburg but even we found somewhere to drill, it will be very hard to make it happen as the tracks are very small.



andrewwynn said:


> hey winny.. how the hell do you regulate voltage with the FET on the wrong side of the lamp? Nch FETs are not known to prefer common hot solutions.. whatever you did.. clever doing it.. 'cause you don't need to boost voltage to get a gate drive... i have a very interesting solution for the FET on the negative side of the lamp as well.. using some interesting sneakyness of my own, but it's a bit of hack and i'm a little surprised it actually works!



Hehehe. :lolsign: It's magic! Low side switching has got its benefits and drawbacks. Because electrons have got higher mobility than holes, N-channel MOSFETs can have lower Ron, and they are cheaper, and easier to find and so on. Gate drive... Yes, we have nasty solutions for that too with the M6-version if we can make a 6S-pack. 
I'll draw you a picture when I find some more time... Soon...


petrev,

EXCELENT JOB! :goodjob: 
Perhaps I should hire you as my first shoehorner and designer!
That finger-action you discovered was more of a bug. It works 90% of the time so sometimes you can power up the processor but it doesn't actually understand that it should start doing something. It can be useful sometimes buy try to use a switch to avoid problems.
Low power, me??? It starts up at 5 V but apart from that I didn't do anything...
If you plan to put a 35 W in there, why not a 35W IRC or even 50 W IRC? I have plenty and if you get one in there, you can overdrive to monstrous levels and have the most extreme M6!

I have to run now. I'll get back later.


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## petrev (Apr 15, 2006)

Hi

Winny 
Thanks for the vote of confidence but AWR really is the master designer - I do have fun bodging things though.

As for IRCs, well the 35w Osram G4 will only fit if the reflector hole is modified slightly(!) , so fitting a GY6.35 would require major surgery I guess.

Getting back to my little blown bulb fiasco I think we have worked out what happened . . .

The PIR1 seems to prefer, and is set up, using a high Vin and then regulates accurately to a much lower Vout. This is quite the opposite to the Hotdriver(TM) that likes to work much closer to home. 
I'm trying to get the PIR1 to work very close to not really working at all and its calibration curves are not so close down at the bottom end.
This probably wouldn't have mattered too much, but for accidentaly finding the neat feature of skin contact turn on. As I was pushing in my pack full of fresh batteries I must have turned it on (High Power - last state) using my thumb as the switch contact and so when it hit home it was fully on and I had missed the soft start - BINGO - PHUTT !

So - don't have the whole of your back plane as a contact - just use the bit in the middle where the spring hits it ! ! !

. . . and a PIR-M6 should be calibrated for use with a 3p2s17500 pack so its more accurate all the time - Winny can do this but it has to be done via the USB programmer.

The use of a 2p3s17500 pack seems out because of the extra length with the added pcb in the middle unless a PIR-M6 is much thinner ? and 6s17500 - what current are they running at ? ? ? ( I'm not totally technical ) ? Also life is much easier if we all use the same pack and charging solutions are no doubt easier too in the 2 or 3 cell area.

Any further ideas please

Pete


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## wquiles (Apr 15, 2006)

petrev said:


> 3x17670 an option but only have 2 and didn't know if it is advisable to draw 5A from them ! Can always rewire it again if needed. Anyway this is just a stopgap solution until all the better ones arrive, but thought I'd share anyway.


I am sorry, I should have been more specific. I though about a pack like yours back in December for using with 3x17670 cells like shown in this picture:





So I meant not with the almost-5-amps draw from the MN21 but using the PIR 1 (in the empthy space above the cells) with either the MN20 (a little bit under 3 Amps) or with the MN60/MN61 bulbs from the M4 which are normally run with 4 primary CR123 cells (so 3 16760 in series with the PIR1 would be excellent!).

Will


----------



## petrev (Apr 15, 2006)

wquiles said:


> I am sorry, I should have been more specific. I thought about a pack like yours back in December for using with 3x17670 cells like shown in this picture:
> 
> See above .
> 
> ...



Thanks - now I understand.

Your pic is where I got the idea from for mine.

Cheers


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## petrev (Apr 15, 2006)

Almost an MN21-64275





!

Later . . .


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## andrewwynn (Apr 15, 2006)

holy cow busy thread today. 





My first flashlight mod.. the contacts to the battery are made from exactly the same fuse contact.. cut in half twice (the long way was interesting to say the least). 

The rest of the album is here

I'm planning to make a WA holder out of an old MN21.. skipping ahead looks like you are close to having one.. mine will be just like the PR->WA holder that fivemega makes.. it's awesome and extremely low resistance... i've measured 3.5mohm per contact.. less than the ceramic socket we use with the KIU! 

how cute about using the LOTC.. the "O" can stand for ON or OFF.. "Lock ON tailcap". 

winny.. if you only made on the order of 80 boards.. best to revise the design to include the hole.. use any leftover boards where they won't be used in the M6.. it's what i'm doing with the HD.. the vTwo board will be used for the M6 but also in the future to replace the vOne board.

the neat trick about low side switching is that you pulled it off with the low resistance N-ch.. very neat. I have a prototype designed that uses low-side switching and a much smaller chip, but the same type.. but has no voltage charge pump so can't do high-side without a secondary power source.. it's not designed to be low-side switching but i figured out a really neat trick that worked on the bench.. if it continues to work.. i've got the hotdriver down to 14mm diameter x 2 boards.. to make a sandwich that will fit into a minimag. 

Powerplant is an issue to use more than 35W in the M6. as petreve points out.. can't pull the current out of the cells.. and the higher draw bulbs end up being bigger diameter and won't fit. 

2p3s 17500.. i think i can get it to fit, but would have to use 1/2 thickness PCBs. the current just works itself out btw.. if the power is about the same, the current will also be the same. (i.e. 25W from 2s3P will be the same current from the cells as 25W from 3s2p..). 

I will be recommending a charger that can handle 1, 2, 3 or 4 cells.. if using 3s2p or 2s3p, just a flip of the switch.. the bonus.. 3s charges faster because it's constant CURRENT charging, so charges faster wattage with more cells in series. 

nice job on the 64275! i think i might load one of them up so i can use it for testing vs the MN21.. it's not mine i'd hate to blow it. 

-awr


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## andrewwynn (Apr 15, 2006)

I'm going to have to stop helping so much.. talk about fuel to the fire, you're not supposed to already have a working PIR in an M6 host! it's supposed to take a week or more!

So much for sleep *this* weekend. 

All in good humor of course.. hopefully winny can figure out how to drill a hole in the middle of the PIR.. actually.. even just clearing the space of 5.5mm in the center.. relocating the two chips in the way.. i think you can use my battery pack, and just glue the PIR on (or better.. bolt it with the two KIU holes).. so you can skip having to put the hole through the board. dangit.. maybe i should shuddup. 

-awr


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## petrev (Apr 16, 2006)

AWR

You are helping greatly - with both inspiration and ideas as well as solutions.

My M6-PIR is of course only a low capacity solution - much easier to do.

Where do the 5Mega style pin holders come from that he mounts in his PR adapter rings. Mine is a temporary, see if it fits, attempt at the moment.

Keep up the good work
Pete


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## winny (Apr 16, 2006)

petrev,

Great job again! You should start a bulb replacement service for used M6 bulbs. It cant be that hard to find a bunch of them an replace the lamps. I would be very interested in a 12 V, 35 W IRC-modded one, but I need an M6 first...  


awr,

Your help is very appreciated!
You have to explain two thing to me because I can be very stupid sometimes.
1. How can the O-ring become visible if the tailcap is made longer?
2. How does a 6S-pack end up longer than a 2S3P-pack?  


Some news...

We made a preliminary redesign of the PIR and it's down to 25.2 mm in diameter and about 6-7 mm high. Where should that hole be located, how big should it be and why?  again!


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## petrev (Apr 16, 2006)

Hi Winny

I think IRC would require major mod to the M6 mirror - bigger hole for bigger bulb and then the LA would be too small and move so a ring would have to be fitted to it . . . 

The 35W-Osram64275 "bulb" fits but its flat area is just too wide to fit the mirror hole - so a tiny bit needs to be ground off it using a dremmel type thingy ( I prefered to do that than mod the beautiful M6 mirror !)

Modding the MN21 was quite time consuming using my leatherman and a drill/Dremmel (+Soldering iron) . . . but fun outcome

Cheers Pete

See also PM




winny said:


> petrev,
> 
> Great job again! You should start a bulb replacement service for used M6 bulbs. It cant be that hard to find a bunch of them an replace the lamps. I would be very interested in a 12 V, 35 W IRC-modded one, but I need an M6 first...
> 
> ...


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## andrewwynn (Apr 16, 2006)

1).. i'm not modifying the tailcap.. but the tail CUP.. inside.. when it is modified to be deeper.. it means the tailCAP hits solid sooner.. not as far turned on. the 'fore' o-ring only gets covered by about 1.5mm normally.. i already modified the inner tailCUP so that when 'locked out'.. you can just barely see the 'fore
o-ring groove. 

2) 2 ways.. that will happen.. 

a) using NIMH 'A' cells.. since the PCB is about twice as thick as the copper discs.. you end up with 1.6mm more length. 

b) oops.. i though you asked about 3S2P LiON.. that also is longer because you also need an additional circuit board in the middle to make the batteries mate up. 

25.2 helps for C size.. might hurt for PIR.. though it should still fit.. big reduction in size though.. you'd be better off for M6 to have it thinner.. all chips on one side and wider.. can be like 34mm+

ideally there should be no device within 6mm diameter of center.. and there should be a 2.6mm hole. traces can go within that area as long as they are covered by the solder mask. The 'why' is so that it can be bolted to the pack.. 

check out the pictures on post 1 and post 34 of the HDM6 thread

-awr


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## winny (Apr 16, 2006)

Me and Alexander are trying to squeeze everything in...

How long can the total pack be?

How is the battery-pack held in place in the original M6 and how will the new pack be held in place without the tailcap activating it?

How much boreing (how do you spell that?) would be needed to use 18500 batteries?


petrev,

My 35 W IRC lamps are 12 mm in diameter. Is there any change they will fit?
If we can assume 1100 mAh in the batteries and they can take 2C, we should be able to squeeze out 2112 lumen for 30 minutes with that. Regardless of how bad the reflector is or isn't, we are looking at a buck load more light than the original M6, with longer runtime, longer bulb life, regulated and way cheaper.


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## petrev (Apr 16, 2006)

Hi Winny

First note -

My NEW PIR-M6-35AX(64275) is working great ! ! !

- need to do more testing to check how everything is when "warm" but for now a brighter rechargeable ( with great runtime when AWR power pack/tail combos are available ) is here whether with HD or PIR using the osram 35W.

Needs a better name though . . .

Bigger bulb ? the M6 lamp assembly mirror hole is about 9mm dia. but the M6 mirror is so lovely that it would be a brave man who takes a drill to it. My Bosch hammer-drill is probably not the tool for the job.

There is room to go boring a bigger hole but . . . 
also the MN21 LA would have to have its central pillar added to so that it fitted the new 12mm hole and its central hole would need opening up too for the 6.35 pin package !

The Standard M6 battery pack floats between the tail spring and the bulb spring.

This post by AWR gives most of the dimensions ( i think )
http://candlepowerforums.com/vb/showpost.php?p=1362607&postcount=71

I believe AWRs new tail-piece will still activate the HDM6-Pack ( AWR knows best )


More Soon Hopefully

Pete

edit . . .
ps. forgot about 18500s

My calculations using 37mm (approx.) inside dia. of M6 and 18mm cells is that tri-boring would probably start to damage tail threads and O-ring channels. If 18500s are really 18.4mm like LG2400 18650s then methinks NO.

Somebody else feel free to give a better / definitive answer.

Cheer Pete


----------



## andrewwynn (Apr 16, 2006)

I think the absolute maxiumum i measured was 107.3mm.. i would aim to have at least 1mm of breathing room, but you could probably get it to work at 107.0. 

The battery is normally floated between two spring in the M6.. with my design the bottom spring (bezel down).. will hold the battery pack and driver up against the inside of the tailCUP... it stays in contact with the inside of the tailCUP inside the tailCAP.. makes contact with the body when the button is pressed or the tailCAP is screwed down. Look at the model on my http://hdm6.rouse.com thread.. i don't have the tailCAP, only the tailCUP shown. 

oh.. very good question about 18500s.. now that's some smart thinking!
estimated runtime: 51 minutes.. pretty stunning.. but.. maybe not worth the added effort. You'd need to mil a tri-bore with about 1mm deep grooves.. i think that'd be very easy to do. Boring.

I think the reflectors are GLASS onthe surefire.. quite a challenge to bore the ream bigger. 

reaplacment tailcup works just like the original. you need to get contact to the flat inside and contact is closed when tailcap is screwed on. 

-awr


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## petrev (Apr 17, 2006)

Hiya

My reflector seems to be lovingly crafted from a large piece of Aluminium but I don't know how the surface coat would take to the boring procedure.

This is what my measurements with a rule look like - if someone has a better method for measuring they can get more precise figures - but it all seems rather too close for comfort, especially if 18mm turns out to be 18.4mm as some websites quote ?

Maybe someone like Fivemega would like to try it - but who is going to lend their M6 for the test run ?

Cheers Pete


----------



## andrewwynn (Apr 17, 2006)

oh that's right.. i remember seeing aluminium on the reflector.. it was a different light that had a glass lens. 

It's not really worth the time, effort, money is my take on the 18500s.. 40 vs 50 minutes of runtime for all that effort? it's an appreciable difference, but not worth it in my opinion.

BTW.. a really easy mod would be TWO 18650s in series.. pushes them fairly hard.. but just barely over 2C.. i would do it myself no problem. Nice that they are far shorter than the 6-pack of 17500s. I will explore the idea of making some quick n dirty packs that are cheaper than the HDM6.

-awr


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## petrev (Apr 17, 2006)

Hi

I too had looked at 2xLG2400-18650s as an alternative 
these RC-Model boys make packs (not really suitable design) and claim 6A is OK ! http://www.troybuiltmodels.com/LiIonBatteries.htm

2xLG2400-18650 is a nice cheap and chearful way to go and leaves room for an HD in the standard M6

But decided to wait for your tail-cup and pack as yields 3300-3600mAH and per cell loading is 1/3 so stress should be better too.

Cheers pete


----------



## andrewwynn (Apr 17, 2006)

btw.. with 17mm cells.. 3mm is too big in the center.. 18mm.. it might just fit, but i use 2.5mm. you can fit 17mm cells with 3mm center rod in anM6 but absolutely NOT in a tri-bore mag mod. 

Once i have things all figured out for hotdriver M6.. i will look into 2x18670 solution w/o the tailcap mod.. my bad. pack can be made any length so it's a perk.. if i can make a discount model for $75 or something with the only drawback being it doesnt' have double the runtime but only 20-25min.. i think people woudl like that option.

-awr


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## petrev (Apr 17, 2006)

Hi Andrew

Yes - a starter version that doesn't make your (AWR) life too complicated could be a good idea.

Starter System - I kinda like the idea of a drop-in pack for 2x18650 that are swappable so you can just carry 2 fresh cells and charge them in a DSD ( cos I have three - one in the van and 2 at home ).

Cheap and cheerful - standard fit !

Cheers Pete


----------



## andrewwynn (Apr 17, 2006)

That's a very neat idea. I will work on a pack that will do such a thing. the tricky part is they have to be 'series' for that to work.. and have to handle 5A.. but what a simple solution. I'll have to wait for dust to settle to get to it.. 

BTW.. the hotdriver M6 just went on sale here

-awr


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## petrev (Apr 21, 2006)

Hi Andrew 

Hope you are still watching this thread - Thought I'd post here first to get a pre-feeler sort of thing going with your thoughts first.

How about a 4800mAh super-pack option ? 
I've been looking into getting 40mm extension tubes made for the M6 - Aircraft alloy, sympathetic design and HAIII hard anodised.

With these extension tubes you could just lengthen your pack to 3p2s-17670 protected AW-1600mAh and have room for an HD or a PIR1(?DPAK) utilising your New-TailCup. AWs 17670s are listed at the same price so for a little more we get a bump-up from 3300 to 4800mAh !

I can get them made and send them to you for inclusion with a super-pack upgrade if you wanted to do this depending on response. I would need 10 units to start this off as the CNC machine setup cost is the biggest factor.

10 gives a starter figure of £35( ~$62) per (including anodising +postage) - This is based on their guess of how long it will take to setup the CNC-Machine from my M6 and could be slightly more or less but seems reasonable.

I feel its too tricky to get e-MachineShop set up for this - if there is an error in the initial setup it can hopefully be tweaked for a perfect fit and only 1 desk-toy made.

How does all this sound to you ? 

Any suggestions, comments, questions . . .
Cheers
Pete


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## andrewwynn (Apr 21, 2006)

the way i've designed the HDM6.. the battery pack is separate from the driver it is only bolted on.. so if the tailcap was extented, it would be a cakewalk to make a 6x17670 solution.. for a 4800mAH pack. 

eMachineshop would actually probably be able to do the part.. anodizing match is always an issue.. almost would want to use black so it didn't try to match.

-awr


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## petrev (Apr 21, 2006)

Hi

Thats good about the pack - as I hoped.
My skills would not be able to setup eMachineshop and know it would work - about same cost for black std. or HAIII - or can one get HAIII in black ?

Using local people mean they will mask the threads for anodising for the job. Tha CNC people will put O-ring grooves and say knurled ring or other embellishments. I got eMachineshop to design the tube roughly but didn't know the thread type or how to get it input - simple stepped tube with anodising was $350 for 25 don't know how much more it goes up for each extra process - threads + knurling ?

Cheers
Pete

Are you on skype by any chance ?





andrewwynn said:


> the way i've designed the HDM6.. the battery pack is separate from the driver it is only bolted on.. so if the tailcap was extented, it would be a cakewalk to make a 6x17670 solution.. for a 4800mAH pack.
> 
> eMachineshop would actually probably be able to do the part.. anodizing match is always an issue.. almost would want to use black so it didn't try to match.
> 
> -awr


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## brightnorm (Apr 21, 2006)

What HOLA non-dimming runtime could we expect with that setup?

Brightnorm


----------



## andrewwynn (Apr 21, 2006)

just shy of an hour.. 4.8AH and 4.9A. up from just under 40 minutes with the HDM6. 

-awr


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## dizzy (Apr 21, 2006)

This is one reason I have not ordered yet. The possibilities seem endless!!!! 

I am definetly getting something, so you can count me in, but I have spent too much so far this month.( that is the other reason). Keep up the good work awr.


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## andrewwynn (Apr 22, 2006)

i figure 'why be greedy'.. if you have an M6.. you are used to abysmal runtimes with HOLA.. running HOLA as long as LOLA, and doubling both, the HDM6 or shoe-horning a PIR in if winny can make the modifications needed when he does the next batch of PIRs.. amazing.

-awr


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## petrev (Apr 22, 2006)

Hi All

Why does anyone want more (time/lumens) - just thought that as the batteries cost the same and the only extra effort/cost is longer centre bar and shrink wrap that for a bit of effort on my part I would supply at cost the tubes to make M6++ with 200% longer than standard dimming runtimes - regulated as desired for about a $60 premium.

~$120 ~ 40minutes-HOLA (+100%)
~$180 ~ 60minutes-HOLA (+200%)

Cheers Pete


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## dizzy (Apr 22, 2006)

I would be in for one of the extension tubes and 4800mah battery packs in addition to the HDM6 starter kits. I agree that 95% of the time , the 40 min run time will be more than suffficient, but on say an outdoor camping event(boy scouts) where there is no electricity available, or a search and rescue operation, the longer run time could come in handy. I realize you could also have the stock battery holder filled with fresh 123's too, but when hiking, you want to keep weight to a minimum and space is limited. 

I just had an idea,an extension tube with tritium inserts and maybe the charging jack also if there is room,or could be made so there is enough room.

I need to stop stirring the pot, I know,so I will just let you guys work things out.


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## js (Apr 22, 2006)

I haven't been keeping up with this thread very well, so I am not current on what is going on, but, I do have something important to post. The following M6-R list people have been credited the indicated amounts towards the HD-M6 list (i.e. AWR now has your money, not me  ). Andrew I sent the package to you today with the Kapton tape and a check for the total of the amounts below minus the cost of the tape. It was sent priority mail.

Jerimoth $242
Sakugenken $214.89
Rick258 $110
510jack $230

Andrew, there will most likely be at least a couple more transfers from the M6-R list. I am waiting on responses from several people as to what they would like to do.


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## andrewwynn (Apr 23, 2006)

As jim pointed out.. the transfers are coming by check to avoid paypal fees.. to get you full credit toward the HDM6.. also.. i'll be using original paypal dates for shipping order (though that should be mostly a moot point.. i expect them all to ship within the first working week of the start).. 

petrev.. since the bat-pack will be interchangeable.. i will work on an upgrade to 17670 and other solutions.. like the 2x18650 w/o tailcap mod solution, etc but not 'til may.. plenty of other things to do. 

-awr


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## petrev (Apr 23, 2006)

Hi AWR

Fair enough, not trying to cause you too much grief - I am sure you have more than enough on your plate.

I'll post a proper feeler for the extension to find out if there is anyone else apart from me (and Dizzy) who wants them.

Have you got an approximate date for the Tail-Cups ? How much are they as an item ?

Cheers Pete


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## andrewwynn (Apr 23, 2006)

haven't decided on the price to sell the tailcap separate from HDM6.. maybe $10 or 15... date will be about the end of may. 

-awr


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## petrev (Apr 23, 2006)

Thanks AWR

posted feeler thread for XTN-Tubes here

Pete



andrewwynn said:


> haven't decided on the price to sell the tailcap separate from HDM6.. maybe $10 or 15... date will be about the end of may.
> 
> -awr


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## js (Apr 27, 2006)

Andrew,

According to USPS track and confirm, you received my package with the check for the transfers so far, on Apr 24th. Could you please confirm that that is the case and that the kapton tape arrived safe and sound as well?

Thanks, Andrew.


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## andrewwynn (Apr 28, 2006)

yupper.. good to go. i can't wait to use that tape.. great stuff.


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## js (Jun 1, 2006)

Andrew,

Where do we stand with the HD-M6?


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## dizzy (Jun 1, 2006)

WOW, I completely forgot about this other thread. No posts in over a month. Thanks JS for getting this one going again. Andrew, the ball is in your court now.


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## Css2000 (Jun 1, 2006)

Yeah, good question. I just bought an M6 and my batteries are almost dead. I'm hopeing the rechargeable pack will be here for the rescue:lolsign:


js said:


> Andrew,
> 
> Where do we stand with the HD-M6?


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## andrewwynn (Jun 1, 2006)

things are doing well with getting all the parts lined up.. mass production probably will start in about 3 weeks.. my initial estimate was 2 1/2 months from mid-april.. so that's right in line with expectations. It should only take a week to 10 days to complete production on all units so there won't be any prolonged building/shipping season. 

-awr


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## Css2000 (Jun 2, 2006)

Sounds good. Thank you for the update


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## andrewwynn (Jun 2, 2006)

dizzy said:


> WOW, I completely forgot about this other thread. No posts in over a month. Thanks JS for getting this one going again. Andrew, the ball is in your court now.




yeah the thread was replaced with http://hdm6.rouse.com over a month ago, hence this thread being 'dead'. This was the precursor to the real thing.

-awr


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## dizzy (Jun 4, 2006)

andrewwynn said:


> The Hotdriver M6 thread continues here. please keep generic questions about M6 recharagebles in this thread, so not to clutter the hotdriver m6 thread, i will monitor both threads.
> 
> -awr



This post from 4/11/06 indicates that this thread was not to be replaced by the other.:thinking:


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## andrewwynn (Jun 4, 2006)

oh yeah that's right.. this thread is the 'generic M6 rechargeable' thread.. If you have HDM6 questions they belong in this thread This thread hear is for non HDM6 rechargeable M6 talk. I was confused by a post i made in the HDM6 sales thead directing to the regular HDM6 thread... so.. to avoid further confusion and be crystal clear.. This thread didn't have activity because i'm not working on a 'generic' solution.. i have a thread for HDM6, that's where to post questions about it :-D

-awr


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## dizzy (Jun 4, 2006)

andrewwynn said:


> Oh.. almost forgot:
> 
> I've hammered out a farily solid timeline:
> 
> ...


 I guess we can assume that this timeline is no longer valid. I understand that you couldn't have foreseen the delays of your other projects, but I was hoping to get my HDM6 by the 25th of june, to take to scout camp.

On the other hand, I still believe that when all is said and done, this project will be well worth the extra wait, as I'm sure all your projects are.


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## andrewwynn (Jun 4, 2006)

it was actually mostly HDM6 stuff adding on the time. I initially said 2 1/2 months estimate to add some buffer to cover the extras... the metal parts are done ahead of schedule but it took a lot longer to design the new vTwo driver board because i found a new chip that monitors voltage which had to be worked in.. a lot of sleepless nights involved getting that done just to stay within the 2 1/2 mo initial estimate which turns out will be more accurate than the timeline above. 

I might likely have an operational prototype you could play with at scout camp.. i roll that way.. so don't give up hope for havin' something you can use. 

-awr


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## dizzy (Jun 5, 2006)

:bow:Andrew, that is extremely gracious of you to make that offer, and shows the kind of guy you really are, but I'll be OK with using cr123's in it. Besides, I have a nice U2 on the way to take to camp along with an L2,two E2d's,twoG2's,a 6Pw/a19 and KT2 and whatever else I buy before I go. Plus it doesn't get dark until 9:00pm or so by then.:thanks::bow:


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## js (Jun 19, 2006)

Andrew,

I endorsed your Rechargeable M6 solution and sent a fair amount of M6-R money your way because *you said this would happen relatively fast*.

I know things happen (believe me--I really do) and I'm not trying to be an *** here, but I feel responsible for those people who transfered over from my signup list.

Give me (and the rest of us) a current, conservative, definitely done-by date for shipment on these orders, please.

What's currently holding up the works? Is there anything I could do to help speed things up?


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## andrewwynn (Jun 19, 2006)

the main delay was re-re-designing the driver to incorporate Vbat cutoff vs Vlamp cutoff. waiting for the parts to come in and can start assembly. it won't be that much longer now, and once they parts are in.. we've done as many as 30 hotdrivers in a day .. there are under 50 in the queue so even including assembling the battery packs.. it won't take much more than a week start to finish to get them all made. 

looking at 'post one' of this thread.. i'm about 2 weeks away from my 2 1/2 month estimate.. it'll probably be a week over that but for a sizeable project that's not a terrible over run.. i know that initially i had said end of may as a likely timeline, but it took about a month extra to find enough time to re-do the driver properly. (took several re-works). 

50 packs in about 3 months start to finish.. that is *relatively fast*. I only recently posted that it will be at least 3 more weeks 'til assembly begins.... so.. not much longer, but a bit of patience is all it'll take. 

Some of the addeded time came from numerous revisions to work in the concept of the 4800 pack and working tag-team with petrev to develop it.. so of course time was burned up that ended up making the driver take longer.

So.. that's the long n the short of it.. nobody's going to be unhappy to get the HDM6, and it'll be well worth the wait. 

I will not have an exact start date for shipping for at least another 1-2 weeks.. but i should be able to hammer out a very precise timeline about then. 

-awr


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## js (Jun 30, 2006)

Andrew,

Any chance you can hammer out a precise time-line at this point, 1-2 weeks later than the post above?


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## andrewwynn (Jul 1, 2006)

boards are due for completion on 10 July.. it'll take a couple days to get the boards after that and within a week we will have the boards all assembled and start mass assembly of HDM6 shortly after that. I will definitely post as soon as the boards are here and we start assembly. we will probably get all the boards soldered up in one or two days and testing over another day or two. 

-awr


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## js (Aug 15, 2006)

Andrew,

It is a month in a half since your last post to this thread. What's going on?

-Jim


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## andrewwynn (Aug 15, 2006)

i don't use this thread.. you need to update your subscription to the right thread.. the HDM6s are about to be soldered up. we plan to do the whole batch on sunday.. assembly into packs and shipping will not be long after... updates are plenty on the actual HDM6 thread. http://hdm6.rouse.com the updates are plentiful there... and not much longer to go. It would be reeaaally nice if some kind moderator could lock this thread to avoid confusion in the future. 

There are TWO threads now that have succeeded this one (hence the no posting here anymore).. 

-awr


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## js (Aug 15, 2006)

Andrew,

Got it. Subscribed to the proper thread. Did you mention this earlier? Cause I swear I never heard about the other thread before.


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## andrewwynn (Aug 15, 2006)

yeah i mentioned it the last time you posted to that thread also :-D Sorry you were in the dark though.. see this post from this thead earlier.. that link actually goes to the in-between thread which then reference the sales thread.

Sorry about the delays... once i found the better solution for low-volt cutout i had to incorporate it and it took like 50 hours design time and that added more than a month just from that because it's hard to find any *extra* time to do anything.. (and like you.. i can not tolerate not 'doing it the right way' even if it adds to time or expense.. 

The initial timeline was based on not needing to incorporate any new design into the circuit-board. The cktboards are done but i've not found exactly the right resistance levels to use to achieve the exact low volt cutout desired (it works perfectly, just not at the right voltage level yet.. just a few more hours of screwing around in the lab and i'll have the resistor levels nailed.. then it's to 'mass assembly' of the boards.. it's coming very soon! (planning to do the mass board assembly sunday). 

if you are subscribed to hdm6.rouse.com now you'll get the correct update and no longer be in the dark. (i'm sure there is a funny pun in there since this is about flashlights)

-awr


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