# Japanese Vs Chinese Eneloop Cycle Testing Results



## Power Me Up

At about the start of 2014, Panasonic shifted production of Eneloops for some markets (including Australia) from Japan to China.

The Chinese Eneloops have the same product code as the Japanese made Eneloops and are rated for the same 2100 cycles. The Chinese cells are rated slightly lower on capacity retention with a claimed 65% remaining after 5 years instead of 70%

When I heard about this change, I was immediately concerned that even though the Chinese made Eneloops were rated for the same number of cycles, they may not actually be as good as those made in Japan. Time for another test!

For this test, I took a pair of 4th generation Japanese made Eneloops and a pair of new 4th generation Chinese made Eneloops. I put one of each into 2 separate chargers and set them running with both charging and discharging at 2 amps. 20 minutes rest after charging and 10 minutes after discharging. The results of the test is shown below:







Please note that at the time of posting this, the Japanese Eneloops (shown in blue) are still running where as the Chinese Eneloops (in green) died quite a while ago.

It seems quite clear to me from this test that under these conditions at least, the Chinese Eneloops perform well below what the Japanese made Eneloops are capable of. These Chinese Eneloops have performed better in this test than the 1st gen Japanese made Eneloop that I previously tested, however, that may be due to this test being done over the cooler Winter months. The testing method also isn't exactly the same, so that could also have an effect on the result. It should also be noted that the 4th gen Japanese Eneloops tested better than the one in my previous test as well.

A while ago, I contacted Panasonic Australia to confirm that the Japanese and Chinese Eneloops are rated using the same testing method and was told that they were. Initially, I was told that the Chinese made Eneloops were just as good or even better than those made in Japan. When I pointed out that the Chinese Eneloops were rated for less capacity retention and asked if there was any situation in which the Japanese cells could work better, the response was less defensive of the Chinese cells and admitted that there could be some differences in performance.

About 2 weeks ago, I contacted Panasonic Australia again to seek a comment on these test results. I was initially asked to send through my results and asked for details about my testing methods. I sent those details through as requested, but initially received no response. After a couple of days, I sent a follow up email to see if my previous email had been lost to which I received an email confirming that my email had indeed been lost to the spam folder. In that email, I was told that my results would be reviewed at the start of the following week (now last week). I have received no further response from Panasonic despite sending them a follow up email.

I do understand that moving production to China, etc is quite normal these days, and I can certainly understand the reasons for doing so. What I really don't like is when companies move production to a country with lower wages and reduce the quality, but don't admit to it and continue to charge the same prices as they were before. In Panasonic's defence in this case, it appears that the reduced costs are actually having an impact on local pricing here in Australia. Previous 3rd generation Eneloops generally went on sale at **** Smith Electronics for $20 for a pack of 8. Since the Chinese Eneloops have made an appearance here, they've been discounted to $15 for an 8 pack numerous times.

It's speculated that when Panasonic purchased Sanyo, they only acquired the Eneloop brand and the Japanese factory that produces Eneloops was sold off to a third party to ensure that there weren't any anti-trust issues that would otherwise block the purchase due to Panasonic potentially controlling an excessive proportion of the worldwide battery production capacity. There are still Eneloops being produced in Japan for some markets, but other markets are being sold Chinese made Eneloops instead. For customers in those markets, it seems that Eneloops are now only Eneloops in name.

Having said all of the above, I'm somewhat disappointed in Panasonic. I have a number of other Panasonic branded items in my household and have generally been quite happy with them all, but this is leaving a bitter taste in my mouth.


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## tintomatic

Power Me Up said:


> they've been discounted to $15 for an 8 pack numerous times.



Sad to know that eneloop is no longer eneloop...but they were on sale for $2 a 8 pack last week, can't really complain that...:naughty:


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## Power Me Up

tintomatic said:


> Sad to know that eneloop is no longer eneloop...but they were on sale for $2 a 8 pack last week, can't really complain that...:naughty:



Yep - I ended up with 3 packs for a whole $3.96. DSE stuffed up and sent AA packs instead of AAA packs - I had ordered a pack of each, but ended up with 2x AA packs and 1x AAA pack. I'm not the only one that ended up with an extra pack - others have reported that they've been told to just keep the extra pack... Worked out to 66 cents per set of 4 - I've never bought rechargeables that cheap before and I dare say it'll never happen again!


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## Tapis

Power Me Up said:


> There are still Eneloops being produced in Japan for some markets, but other markets are being sold Chinese made Eneloops instead.


Very interesting comparison test, thanks! Quite sad though. I wonder what markets will still carry the Japanese Eneloops and for how long before we all sing RIP Eneloops.


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## MidnightDistortions

The Chinese brand is terrible. I don't know what Panasonic is thinking. Long as i can get the Japanese ones there should be no problems, hopefully amazon will still carry or at least give some options. I'll be switching back to Duracell if Eneloops are not made in Japan anymore.


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## Milo Fisher

Very interesting, thanks for the post. Shame that Panasonic aren't responding but what can they say?


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## Power Me Up

Milo Fisher said:


> Very interesting, thanks for the post.



No problem!



> Shame that Panasonic aren't responding but what can they say?



If they could see an error in my testing method, they could point that out, but not much else beyond that as far as I can see.


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## Viking

Even though I previously have expressed my concerns , I must admit this test result is somewhat worse than I suspected it might would be.

I also think we should take into account that the 1. generation eneloops the chinese made seemingly beats was approximately 7 years old during the test. Thats 2 more years than the max life expectancy for ordinary nimh according to energizer. Although I personally believe LSD nimh has longer life expectancy , I don't think they were in new condition as the chinese cells obviously should be in.

I will still recommend eneloops ( or Fujitsu ) , but in the future specify they should be the japanese made ones. Luckily in Europe they still are.

Also I find panasonic's lack of response after 2 inquiries to a customer , who quite obviously have spent a lot of time and efforts to make some serious homework testing kind of arrogant.

At least you get a thumbs up from me for your serious work. Thanks Power Me Up :thumbsup:




Milo Fisher said:


> Shame that Panasonic aren't responding but what can they say?



A simple answer ( almost any kind ) would have been the polite way to respond in my opinion.


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## WalkIntoTheLight

This is really useful information, and unfortunately shows a much greater difference than I ever would have expected. I'm glad I stocked up on Japanese Eneloops earlier this year, though now I wished I had bought some more AA's.

It's very disconcerting that there's no way to tell in advance (if you mail-order) where they are manufactured.

Hopefully, Fujitsu will manufacture them under a different brand.


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## kj2

Thanks for testing this. Will contact my Eneloop-seller now, before I order.


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## Tapis

Viking said:


> I will still recommend eneloops ( or Fujitsu )...


Fujitsu? Where? They're hard to find, even on Amazon.


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## MidnightDistortions

kj2 said:


> Thanks for testing this. Will contact my Eneloop-seller now, before I order.



Yep, this is the best way for now. In fact i'd contact your seller and let them know you prefer Japanese Eneloops. Even be willing to pay extra if that's what it takes to get better quality batteries. Those areas that have already gone to the Chinese Eneloops might give Panasonic an idea that consumers do want to pay a premium for better quality, though you shouldn't have to pay twice as much as Japanese Eneloops already is. I thought i read somewhere that Eneloops were guaranteed to last 10 years provided that they were well taken care of and the cycles have not been used up within that time frame.


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## Viking

Tapis said:


> Fujitsu? Where? They're hard to find, even on Amazon.



In Europe they can be purchased at the link below to a decent price. I don't know about Canada.
But yes they are undoubtedly much harder to find at a competitive price.

http://ru.nkon.nl/rechargeable/aa-size/4-aa-fujitsu-nimh-batteries-in-case.html


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## Tapis

I'm in Europe right now so I will purchase some wherever I see them, in a shopping mall or elsewhere. I hope the package clearly indicates whether they're made in Japan or China.


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## Viking

Unfortunately I can't help you there. Here in Denmark neither eneloops or the Fujitsu's are widely available in retail stores. Actually I don't know of any retail store that sells either one of them. My eneloops are therefor purchased online.

But if you buy from an authorized dealer, I think you can count on the Eneloops are made in Japan. And these particular Fujitsu cells I think are only made ​on the FDK factory in Japan. Be aware though , I think Fujitsu makes other cells as well , but not with this particular item number.

Another thing to look after ( beside "made in japan" of course ) is the 65 % vs. 70 % remaining capacity after 5 years for the eneloops , as already mentioned by Power me up.


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## StandardBattery

Thanks for the test. I would have used no more than 1A, but in any case your test shows they are not the same cells. Too bad. 

Most companies require much larger timeframes to respond to questions like this so I'm not surprised you have not heard back yet. I would not be surprised if you hear back later later. They may be trying to duplicate the results, but I suspect that is not the case because i believe they already have tons of test data.


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## mcnair55

StandardBattery said:


> Thanks for the test. I would have used no more than 1A, but in any case your test shows they are not the same cells. Too bad.
> 
> Most companies require much larger timeframes to respond to questions like this so I'm not surprised you have not heard back yet. I would not be surprised if you hear back later later. They may be trying to duplicate the results, but I suspect that is not the case because i believe they already have tons of test data.




I cannot see any reason why they would even want to reply,perhaps if the test data was some university or similar they may show some interest.


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## WalkIntoTheLight

mcnair55 said:


> I cannot see any reason why they would even want to reply,perhaps if the test data was some university or similar they may show some interest.



It's a big company, and the email probably got stuck in some low-level customer service rep's inbox. Basically, customer service reps aren't interested.

If the email went to someone in quality control, they probably would care. Maybe they did forward it to QC, but a low-level manager got it and decided his department staff had enough work to do and this test wasn't in their mandate.


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## MidnightDistortions

It might be possible they are discussing the results, otherwise they might not be interested in a consumer's test. It depends on whether Panasonic wants to investigate this and/or cares enough that the Chinese Eneloops are lower quality and want the best their batteries are capable of providing. The Eneloop videos on the site seem like Panasonic wants a cleaner environment so it would make sense that they want Japanese quality, but it doesn't change the fact that they are planning to switch to Chinese.

One thing i realized with the test here is that you'd probably exceed the 500 cycles with giving much longer rest periods (say weekly or monthly cycling) but that would take too long to test, but i wonder if Panasonic did different tests instead of continually discharging/recharging the batteries whether the batteries need a recovery time in between cycles. Also the quality might have been similar in the beginning but degraded over time. I don't know how long the Chinese have been producing Eneloops for.

Either way it doesn't change the fact the Chinese batteries fell below the Japanese ones which is clear cut that the Japanese Eneloops hold out better. If Panasonic is a trustworthy company which i believe them to be, they'd ditch the Chinese batteries or at the very least do an investigation on how the Chinese are manufacturing Eneloops and make some changes so the Chinese counterparts are of same quality.


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## Power Me Up

StandardBattery said:


> Thanks for the test. I would have used no more than 1A, but in any case your test shows they are not the same cells. Too bad.



The test would have taken nearly twice as long in that case - probably longer since the cells would be expected to last for more cycles! The key thing was to find out if there is a difference between the Chinese and Japanese cells.



> Most companies require much larger timeframes to respond to questions like this so I'm not surprised you have not heard back yet. I would not be surprised if you hear back later later. They may be trying to duplicate the results, but I suspect that is not the case because i believe they already have tons of test data.



Regardless of what is actually going on, IMHO, the courteous thing for them to do would have been to at least send me an email to say that they're still looking at the results and give an estimate of when they hope to be able to provide a response.

The fact that they haven't responded at all since confirming that they have received my results is IMHO tantamount to an admission that they can't find any problems with my testing method...

I agree that they've no doubt got plenty of their own test data. It would be interesting if they could release that data to show how their internal testing shows how the different cells compare, but I can certainly understand why they wouldn't want to do that...


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## Power Me Up

mcnair55 said:


> I cannot see any reason why they would even want to reply,perhaps if the test data was some university or similar they may show some interest.



Well... They _did_ show interest by asking for details about my testing method and for my results. Checking the last email that I received, it says that he would look at it early the following week - it doesn't actually say that he would respond though!


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## StandardBattery

So does the slow/fast refer to the charge rate at 50 Cycle intervals?


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## Power Me Up

MidnightDistortions said:


> It might be possible they are discussing the results, otherwise they might not be interested in a consumer's test.



As I mentioned in my first post, they did show interest in my results and asked me to send them through...



> It depends on whether Panasonic wants to investigate this and/or cares enough that the Chinese Eneloops are lower quality and want the best their batteries are capable of providing. The Eneloop videos on the site seem like Panasonic wants a cleaner environment so it would make sense that they want Japanese quality, but it doesn't change the fact that they are planning to switch to Chinese.



A good response from Panasonic could have gone along the lines that they're concerned by my test results and are actively investigating what might have gone wrong - that would certainly inspire a bit more confidence than simply going silent!



> One thing i realized with the test here is that you'd probably exceed the 500 cycles with giving much longer rest periods (say weekly or monthly cycling) but that would take too long to test, but i wonder if Panasonic did different tests instead of continually discharging/recharging the batteries whether the batteries need a recovery time in between cycles. Also the quality might have been similar in the beginning but degraded over time. I don't know how long the Chinese have been producing Eneloops for.



There's some discussion of testing methods in the following thread:
http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?391756-Eneloop-XX-Vs-Turnigy-2400-Cycle-Testing

Basically, the IEC standard which they're claiming to use is based on (mostly) incomplete charge/discharge cycles and with no rest at all for most cycles. Charge/Discharge rates are also much lower than what I was using in my test. The IEC standard should take about twice as long to run as the test method that I have been using.

I would expect that it's more likely that the quality started lower and has been improved over time as the production process is fine tuned. Since both Chinese cells that I tested were from the same pack, it's possible that they came from a bad batch, or being from an early production run, it's possible that newer cells are capable of more cycles. I'm planning to run another test with at least one more Chinese cell that has been manufactured more recently.

A good question that comes to mind is the fact that the IEC standard that is referenced on the back of the Eneloop packs would take around 18 months to get through 2100 cycles. How on earth have they managed to test the Chinese cells to that many cycles using that method when production in China has only been going for 12 or so months????



> Either way it doesn't change the fact the Chinese batteries fell below the Japanese ones which is clear cut that the Japanese Eneloops hold out better. If Panasonic is a trustworthy company which i believe them to be, they'd ditch the Chinese batteries or at the very least do an investigation on how the Chinese are manufacturing Eneloops and make some changes so the Chinese counterparts are of same quality.



It would be really interesting to know what is going on within Panasonic with regard to the Chinese production of Eneloops!


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## Power Me Up

WalkIntoTheLight said:


> It's a big company, and the email probably got stuck in some low-level customer service rep's inbox. Basically, customer service reps aren't interested.
> 
> If the email went to someone in quality control, they probably would care. Maybe they did forward it to QC, but a low-level manager got it and decided his department staff had enough work to do and this test wasn't in their mandate.



The person that I was corresponding with is a "Business Manager"


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## Power Me Up

StandardBattery said:


> So does the slow/fast refer to the charge rate at 50 Cycle intervals?



The fast cycles are the ones done at 2 amps charge and discharge - i.e. cycles 1-49. The 50th cycle is the one done with a slow 400 mA discharge.


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## SoCalSteve

Hi,

This is definitely a great resource you're sharing with the forum. Do you have any similar testing done for other battery manufacturers such as Powerex, Imedion, Ansmann, Amazon Basics (Black and White ones), etc? 

Thanks.


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## bcwang

I noticed for the first 200 cycles or so, the Chinese Eneloops had more capacity? Was this due to being charged fuller due to termination behavior differences? (which may reduce cycle life). Or maybe having slightly higher capacity degrades their life cycle performance. (something possibly seen in the eneloop XX vs turnigy comparison.)

Were their discharge curves different? (voltage under load)


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## Mr Floppy

Power Me Up said:


> A good question that comes to mind is the fact that the IEC standard that is referenced on the back of the Eneloop packs would take around 18 months to get through 2100 cycles. How on earth have they managed to test the Chinese cells to that many cycles using that method when production in China has only been going for 12 or so months????



I'm guessing that the plant must have made cells for other brands for a while but other LSD brands that I've seen only rate 500 cycles. 

I can only assume that Panasonic did not test the cells at all and just took all the blurbs from the last 4th gen Eneloop from FDK but not the technology. Mind you, the first gen Eneloops are not bad. 



bcwang said:


> Were their discharge curves different? (voltage under load)



I'd like to know too.


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## SimulatedZero

I'm not going to lie, this does not sit very well with me at all. Damn, and I thought I had found the Holy Grail of deals on Amazon for rebranded Eneloop XX series. The batch that I got is all made in Japan, but who knows now.

A big thing to me though is the discharge curve. Like a couple of others have mentioned, I would like to see that plotted out on a graph for comparison.


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## Power Me Up

bcwang said:


> I noticed for the first 200 cycles or so, the Chinese Eneloops had more capacity? Was this due to being charged fuller due to termination behavior differences? (which may reduce cycle life). Or maybe having slightly higher capacity degrades their life cycle performance. (something possibly seen in the eneloop XX vs turnigy comparison.)



The Chinese Eneloops had more capacity at the start - you're quite possibly right that it is related to the reduced cycle life.



> Were their discharge curves different? (voltage under load)



Good question!

I've done a couple of graphs up:












Both of the above graphs were done for the 3rd (2A) discharge for both cells - voltage under load was noticeably lower during the first discharge and improved a little with the 3rd discharge compared to the 2nd.

It's interesting to note that the Chinese Eneloop wasn't able to maintain the same voltage as the Japanese cell - although the Chinese Eneloop had more capacity, the total energy discharged at 2 amps was about the same. Internal resistance as measured on the charger for those discharges was 30 milliOhms for the Japanese cell and 50 milliOhms for the Chinese cell. IR varied a bit over the cycling, so there wasn't always that much difference between the IR of the 2 cells. At lower discharge rates, I would expect that the Chinese cell would pull ahead on Energy, but at higher currents, the test would favour the Japanese cell.

The above data was taken from the first pair of cells. I just took a look at the data from the second set of cells and the differences are actually bit smaller - to the point where the Chinese Eneloop has about 50mWh more energy than the Japanese cell - still a lower voltage under load, but less pronounced. The IR values are also closer at around 34 milliOhms and 45 milliOhms. I'm not sure of the reason for the differences - could be individual cell variations, or a bit more contact resistance on the first Chinese cell...


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## Power Me Up

Mr Floppy said:


> I'm guessing that the plant must have made cells for other brands for a while but other LSD brands that I've seen only rate 500 cycles.



Assuming that it's not a new plant, either the Chinese made Eneloops are different than the other branded cells (in which case, those tests wouldn't be valid) or they're the same in which case they're no better than the other brand with an Eneloop badge slapped on to them!


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## MidnightDistortions

Power Me Up said:


> As I mentioned in my first post, they did show interest in my results and asked me to send them through...
> 
> 
> A good response from Panasonic could have gone along the lines that they're concerned by my test results and are actively investigating what might have gone wrong - that would certainly inspire a bit more confidence than simply going silent!



Yeah, I never meant to say they were not interested, otherwise they would not have replied to have you show them what you found in your tests. They would have taken it seriously considering you found that the cycles are lower in the Chinese Eneloops.



Power Me Up said:


> There's some discussion of testing methods in the following thread:
> http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?391756-Eneloop-XX-Vs-Turnigy-2400-Cycle-Testing
> 
> Basically, the IEC standard which they're claiming to use is based on (mostly) incomplete charge/discharge cycles and with no rest at all for most cycles. Charge/Discharge rates are also much lower than what I was using in my test. The IEC standard should take about twice as long to run as the test method that I have been using.



That would make sense considering XX Eneloops are rated at 500 cycles instead of under 200 in your test. I wonder what impact resting would do with each cycle allowing the battery to recover and cool down. 



Power Me Up said:


> I would expect that it's more likely that the quality started lower and has been improved over time as the production process is fine tuned. Since both Chinese cells that I tested were from the same pack, it's possible that they came from a bad batch, or being from an early production run, it's possible that newer cells are capable of more cycles. I'm planning to run another test with at least one more Chinese cell that has been manufactured more recently.



Hmm, i'm curious what was the manufacturing date of the Chinese cells you tested? Most likely they would fine tune the errors made in the first batch but it depends on whether that this factory keeps quality control and eliminates manufacturing errors as they arise. And many may agree that the Chinese hasn't provided quality stuff, otherwise China wouldn't have such a bad reputation in quality control. I don't know if this applies to Panasonic Eneloops made in China or that you could be right, the first batch of Eneloops were of low quality and you may have tested one of the first production of Eneloops. Testing a more recently manufactured Chinese Eneloop might prove different results.



Power Me Up said:


> A good question that comes to mind is the fact that the IEC standard that is referenced on the back of the Eneloop packs would take around 18 months to get through 2100 cycles. How on earth have they managed to test the Chinese cells to that many cycles using that method when production in China has only been going for 12 or so months????



There's no way they would have been able to test the Chinese cells if the production for Eneloops in China was only around for 12 months. They might have estimated based on the Japanese tests. Then was Chinese manufactured Eneloops always rated at 65% remaining capacity when left in storage for 5 years?



> It would be really interesting to know what is going on within Panasonic with regard to the Chinese production of Eneloops!



I think they ought to be more forthcoming if they really are concerned with the Chinese quality and want to give consumers the best in battery technology. With 500 cycles from the Chinese Eneloops you're still guaranteed roughly 5 years (provided they were well taken care of) and that might be stretched a bit longer depending on usage. But it also shows that the Japanese Eneloops will run longer in extreme conditions and will last longer overall. Your tests do prove that the Japanese Eneloops will last longer under extreme conditions and indeed the Chinese produced are not as reliable. Hopefully your testing will encourage Panasonic to look into the Chinese production and at the very least start putting quality control standards in the Chinese manufacturing plants equivalent to the Japanese plants.


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## Mr Floppy

Power Me Up said:


> Good question!
> 
> I've done a couple of graphs up:
> 
> Both of the above graphs were done for the 3rd (2A) discharge for both cells - voltage under load was noticeably lower during the first discharge and improved a little with the 3rd discharge compared to the 2nd.



Those two graphs remind me of the GP Recyko sag. I wonder ... possibly from the same plant?


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## Power Me Up

MidnightDistortions said:


> Hmm, i'm curious what was the manufacturing date of the Chinese cells you tested?



I just checked one of the cells and it has a code: "1405" stamped on the side - I'd assume that means May 2014.



> Most likely they would fine tune the errors made in the first batch but it depends on whether that this factory keeps quality control and eliminates manufacturing errors as they arise. And many may agree that the Chinese hasn't provided quality stuff, otherwise China wouldn't have such a bad reputation in quality control. I don't know if this applies to Panasonic Eneloops made in China or that you could be right, the first batch of Eneloops were of low quality and you may have tested one of the first production of Eneloops. Testing a more recently manufactured Chinese Eneloop might prove different results.



At first, I was going to say that I can't have an early batch of Chinese Eneloops, but it looks like I'm possibly wrong about when production first moved to China: The earliest reference to Chinese made Eneloops that I can find is from late April this year, so I could well have cells from a (relatively) early batch.

Panasonic has been making NiMH cells in China for a while now - I found some speculation that the Chinese Eneloops are just rebadged Panasonic Evoltas. Maybe that's the case and they've just "uprated" the cycles that they're claiming and they are just the same (inferior) cells...



> There's no way they would have been able to test the Chinese cells if the production for Eneloops in China was only around for 12 months. They might have estimated based on the Japanese tests. Then was Chinese manufactured Eneloops always rated at 65% remaining capacity when left in storage for 5 years?



Good question on the retention rating. They do claim on the packaging that it's based on IEC standard tests - I've haven't really looked at that part of the standard to see if it's accelerated or not...



> I think they ought to be more forthcoming if they really are concerned with the Chinese quality and want to give consumers the best in battery technology. With 500 cycles from the Chinese Eneloops you're still guaranteed roughly 5 years (provided they were well taken care of) and that might be stretched a bit longer depending on usage. But it also shows that the Japanese Eneloops will run longer in extreme conditions and will last longer overall. Your tests do prove that the Japanese Eneloops will last longer under extreme conditions and indeed the Chinese produced are not as reliable. Hopefully your testing will encourage Panasonic to look into the Chinese production and at the very least start putting quality control standards in the Chinese manufacturing plants equivalent to the Japanese plants.



Absolutely - some transparency in all of this would be good IMHO.

I found a document on the web site of the Australian distributor of Eneloops:
http://www.master-instruments.com.au/files/news/eneloop_re_branding_document_august_2014.pdf.pdf

The third page has a comparison of the old 3rd gen Japanese cells to the 4th gen Chinese cells. Amongst other things, it's claimed that the Chinese cells work better in high temperature environments and that they work better in high drain devices. I don't know about the high temperature environments, but I feel quite confident in saying that I think that the Chinese cells are actually worse in high drain devices since they have higher internal resistance according to my measurements...


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## Power Me Up

Mr Floppy said:


> Those two graphs remind me of the GP Recyko sag. I wonder ... possibly from the same plant?



I guess it's possible - I don't have enough info to be able to say confidently one way or the other though.


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## mcnair55

Power Me Up said:


> Well... The _did_ show interest by asking for details about my testing method and for my results. Checking the last email that I received, it says that he would look at it early the following week - it doesn't actually say that he would respond though!




Good luck and hope they do respond but from experience company email has mega big b/s filters.Little tip leaned years ago,spell really badly as you get some jobs worth who cannot resist replying.


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## Kestrel

I have found the above test information (in the context of recent developments in mfg. location) very interesting, and being a big fan of the traditional Eneloops I am disappointed but not all that surprised.

I am reminded of the Duraloops episode ~4 years ago, when the white-top Duraloops (Japan mfg.) were phased out by the black-top Duraloops (China mfg.)
I'm reasonably sure we saw a similar change in performance?

Furthermore, another competitor at the time were the Rayovac LSD cells (called Hybrids IIRC?), they were China-mfg with similar substandard performance compared to the classic Eneloops.

If I was to venture a guess it would also be along the lines of the discussion above; there are manufacturing facilities in China that have been making this inferior iteration of LSD NiMH technology for a while now, and these cells have been going into the Rayovacs, the Duraloops after the changeover, and now finally our beloved Eneloops.

Thoughts?


Edit: This discussion did make me break down and finally order one of those Eneloop "Super Power Packs" from Amazon this morning. I know there isn't a certainty of me receiving the Japan-mfg cells at this point, but the longer I wait the chances of this will inevitably decrease as the supply chain is filled with the China-mfg cells.


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## MidnightDistortions

Power Me Up said:


> I just checked one of the cells and it has a code: "1405" stamped on the side - I'd assume that means May 2014.
> 
> At first, I was going to say that I can't have an early batch of Chinese Eneloops, but it looks like I'm possibly wrong about when production first moved to China: The earliest reference to Chinese made Eneloops that I can find is from late April this year, so I could well have cells from a (relatively) early batch.
> 
> Panasonic has been making NiMH cells in China for a while now - I found some speculation that the Chinese Eneloops are just rebadged Panasonic Evoltas. Maybe that's the case and they've just "uprated" the cycles that they're claiming and they are just the same (inferior) cells...
> 
> Good question on the retention rating. They do claim on the packaging that it's based on IEC standard tests - I've haven't really looked at that part of the standard to see if it's accelerated or not...
> 
> Absolutely - some transparency in all of this would be good IMHO.
> 
> I found a document on the web site of the Australian distributor of Eneloops:
> http://www.master-instruments.com.au/files/news/eneloop_re_branding_document_august_2014.pdf.pdf
> 
> The third page has a comparison of the old 3rd gen Japanese cells to the 4th gen Chinese cells. Amongst other things, it's claimed that the Chinese cells work better in high temperature environments and that they work better in high drain devices. I don't know about the high temperature environments, but I feel quite confident in saying that I think that the Chinese cells are actually worse in high drain devices since they have higher internal resistance according to my measurements...



Again, great work here. It's a good theory that these particular Eneloops are rebrand Evoltas. It could be that they are attempting to increase the performance of them to function more like Eneloops using the Chinese to find out but i don't understand why they would or try to rebrand their Evoltas to Eneloops.

Didn't you mention in an earlier post somewhere that you do pay a lot for Eneloops? I'm curious on how much they charge you compared to Duracell, Energizer or the other brands carried in stores. Currently Duracells run at about $12.95 on Amazon. Energizer is $12.25 while Eneloops are sold for $13.79 which is a pretty good price considering both Energizer and Duracell are rated higher mAh, but they also have under 500 recharge cycles (and the Duracells are rebrand XX Eneloops). So there's really no competition here in America, the only thing that i wish is that they carried Eneloops at Best Buy or Target i think Costco is one of the only places, even though i haven't been to one in a long time. Otherwise i just order them from Amazon so hopefully they will continue to carry the Japanese brand. Keep fighting this long as there are Japan made Eneloops out there, there should be the option of getting them if they are well worth the cost for them. It's encouraging me to get some for family and friends that are into rechargeables but only have Duracells, Energizer or Rayovac brands.


----------



## tilex

First off, thank you for posting these test results. I wasn't even aware that Chinese-made Eneloops even existed until I found this post today. These results have me worried about the future availability of high-quality LSD NiMH cells.



Power Me Up said:


> A good question that comes to mind is the fact that the IEC standard that is referenced on the back of the Eneloop packs would take around 18 months to get through 2100 cycles. How on earth have they managed to test the Chinese cells to that many cycles using that method when production in China has only been going for 12 or so months????



Doesn't this support the theory that these Chinese Eneloops might be a previously-produced model of LSD cell that has been rebranded with an Eneloop label?


----------



## Power Me Up

MidnightDistortions said:


> Again, great work here. It's a good theory that these particular Eneloops are rebrand Evoltas. It could be that they are attempting to increase the performance of them to function more like Eneloops using the Chinese to find out but i don't understand why they would or try to rebrand their Evoltas to Eneloops.



It could be as simple as they think that since the Eneloop brand is fairly well recognised (at least compared to EVoltas) that using that brand will help them to sell more. Personally, I think that it's a very shorted sighted move and they could end up killing the Eneloop brand reputation quicker than it was originally built up...



> Didn't you mention in an earlier post somewhere that you do pay a lot for Eneloops? I'm curious on how much they charge you compared to Duracell, Energizer or the other brands carried in stores.



"Normal" price for a pack of 4 Eneloops tends to be around AU$25 which is only a bit more than Energizer and Duracell rechargeables are often sold for here. Energizer and Duracells rechargeables rarely go on sale though whereas (Chinese) Eneloops are regularly going for $15 per 8 pack on special.


----------



## Power Me Up

tilex said:


> First off, thank you for posting these test results. I wasn't even aware that Chinese-made Eneloops even existed until I found this post today. These results have me worried about the future availability of high-quality LSD NiMH cells.



No problem - it's good to hear that you (and others) appreciate the work put into this test! 



> Doesn't this support the theory that these Chinese Eneloops might be a previously-produced model of LSD cell that has been rebranded with an Eneloop label?



Quite possibly - I wouldn't consider it conclusive evidence though...

It might be worth running a similar test on some Evoltas at some point in the future...


----------



## RoGuE_StreaK

Kestrel said:


> I am reminded of the Duraloops episode ~4 years ago, when the white-top Duraloops (Japan mfg.) were phased out by the black-top Duraloops (China mfg.)


Difference here being there's no such differentiation; they are, in essence, passing off inferior product as the _exact same_ one as previously sold, right down to the same code number. So if not for the likes of Power Me Up realising what was happening, running tests, and informing others, we'd be buying what we thought were the much-touted famous Eneloop, for $50 for an 8 pack (regular price here), even if we went to the lengths of cross-checking the product code. Tantamount to a bait'n'switch.

Power Me Up, have DSE been listing those specials on their ebay store? I've got a search permanently set up to alert me of such things and nothing's come up. I'd probably pay $15 for an 8 pack of the Chinese ones for generic use, puts 'em in line with other cheaper LSDs, but I'd want the Japanese ones for "real" use.


----------



## Viking

Power Me Up said:


> It might be worth running a similar test on some Evoltas at some point in the future...



That would be interesting indeed


----------



## Power Me Up

RoGuE_StreaK said:


> Power Me Up, have DSE been listing those specials on their ebay store? I've got a search permanently set up to alert me of such things and nothing's come up. I'd probably pay $15 for an 8 pack of the Chinese ones for generic use, puts 'em in line with other cheaper LSDs, but I'd want the Japanese ones for "real" use.



I haven't been following their Ebay store, but checking the purchase history on the AAA Chocolat Eneloops, they have sold them in the past for $15 there:
http://offer.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISA...tem=251616832368&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2564

They had the AAA packs for sale on their web site yesterday for $15 ($2 shipping) but that has finished now. They've got the AA packs listed for $15 on their Ebay store right now - $5 shipping though. Checking their web site, the AA packs are coming up as $50 in the search results, but when you click on it, the price is $15. Better to order through their web site since shipping is $2 at the moment.

You need to be careful when purchasing Eneloops now - the Eneloop tropicals used to be Japanese 3rd Gen cells, but there are reports that DSE are now supplying Chinese made tropicals even though the web site still shows a photo of the Japanese version and the description says that they're made in Japan. In this case, product code is different (they've got both the Japanese and Chinese codes listed on their web site at the moment), so it should be possible to work out which version you're ordering, but I wouldn't trust them to send you the correct version - I've purchased an item from DSE previously and they substituted it with a different model without warning - same product name, but the product was actually different and had a different product code. If you were to purchase a pack of the tropicals and got the Chinese made version, I think that you would have very good grounds to complain!

Edit: If you want to keep an eye on Eneloop pricing, it's best to keep an eye on OzBargain - they're listed there every time they go on discount!


----------



## Mr Floppy

Power Me Up said:


> You need to be careful when purchasing Eneloops now - the Eneloop tropicals used to be Japanese 3rd Gen cells, but there are reports that DSE are now supplying Chinese made tropicals even though the web site still shows a photo of the Japanese version and the description says that they're made in Japan



Confirmed. The packaging also mentions 65% where as the Japanese made ones say 70%.


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## MidnightDistortions

Power Me Up said:


> It could be as simple as they think that since the Eneloop brand is fairly well recognised (at least compared to EVoltas) that using that brand will help them to sell more. Personally, I think that it's a very shorted sighted move and they could end up killing the Eneloop brand reputation quicker than it was originally built up...
> 
> "Normal" price for a pack of 4 Eneloops tends to be around AU$25 which is only a bit more than Energizer and Duracell rechargeables are often sold for here. Energizer and Duracells rechargeables rarely go on sale though whereas (Chinese) Eneloops are regularly going for $15 per 8 pack on special.



Yeah someone that has expected Eneloops to last a certain time may notice a difference in quality (especially if they take note on when their first set of Eneloops decline) and it will kill the reputation that Eneloops are far better. I think Panasonic might also want to offer a lower price for Eneloops to gain some acceptance of rechargeables, even though they are not as good as Japanese Eneloops they may be in competition with Duracell and Energizer. In comparison the only difference is that Eneloops is lower mAh capacity compared to Duracell and Energizer (though they have a 1,400mAh battery).


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## kreisl

I don't want to be shy myself  so lemme join your thread mark and say *thanks *so much for your serious testing efforts of cycling Eneloops hundreds of times. My iCharger can run CYCLE programs with up to 999 cycles, which is insane and awesome at the same time. What's the max number of cycles which the USC UltraSmartCharger supports?

In the current MC3000 firmware this number is limited to N=10, a nice realistic reasonable practical number. As long as users don't express their case why they would want or need over 10 cycles in a charger-analyzer, the ten would stay that way i guess.

And sorry for the ot


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## tripplec

I checked a AAA I have and the latest black 2450mA Eneloops and they both say Made in Japan. I got the high capacity last year on eBay. I haven't check through the AA though at this time and it would be a bummer if they were made in China with short life characteristic.

So based on the quality of currently available eneloop cells in North America. 

What is one to do? 
Find a quality alternative? Who?

I believe that part of the discussion has not initiated for future addition and/or replacement cells.


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## tripplec

> It's speculated that when Panasonic purchased Sanyo, they only acquired the Eneloop brand and the Japanese factory that produces Eneloops was sold off to a third party to ensure that there weren't any anti-trust issues....



I overlooked this point in the 1st post. If in fact these Chinese eneloops are built on different patents and technology. They they are nothing more than a clone best effort within. This point would make me look for an alternative brand as good as the original Japanese Eneloop cell were. Cells used to mention the patents protecting them printed on the jacket. I wonder if that is still the case to compare new to old production.

This is bad if correct very bad and the tests implies clearly that something is off, a lot off.


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## Mr Floppy

kreisl said:


> My iCharger can run CYCLE programs with up to 999 cycles, which is insane and awesome at the same time. What's the max number of cycles which the USC UltraSmartCharger supports?



Being the firmware developer, he has his own firmware so he can set it to anything he likes. You can can too if you want to mod the firmware. I'm hoping for a version that will listen and take commands over serial. That way, you should be able to set any sort of program you like. 



> And sorry for the ot



The testing method is important. It isn't just about cycles as special things happen on certain cycles.


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## blankc72

Last week I bought an 8 pack of 4th generation AA Eneloops from Amazon and they are Japanese. Hopefully Panasonic does not phase out the Japanese eneloops completely but won't be surprised if it happens. 


Sent from my iPhone using Candlepowerforums


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## SimulatedZero

Well, my understanding is that Panasonic did not aquire a Japanese based factory with the Eneloop purchase. I'm not sure how they could continue to supply Japanese made cells with out outsourcing them to the company that's owns the factory and bringing the subsequent markup that would follow. It just depends on whether the Made in Japan stamp is popular enough to sustain it's own branding price. 

On the other hand, how does this effect the Eneloop high capacity cells? I'm sure their probably made in the same factory, but being that they are not true LSD cells, I'm hoping they are made in another nifty factory and will still be made in Japan? 

It would be a real shame if they suffered from the same performance drop and IR increase


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## Rosoku Chikara

Power Me Up said:


> ...It's speculated that when Panasonic purchased Sanyo, they only acquired the Eneloop brand and the Japanese factory that produces Eneloops was sold off to a third party to ensure that there weren't any anti-trust issues...<snip>



I would say that the greater part of this statement is not speculation. It is based on credible newspaper articles which pointed out the significant anti-trust issues that prevented Panasonic from "cornering the market" on Ni-MH cells. (The market has changed significantly since then, so I doubt they would have such a huge share any more.)

Actually, the "Eneloop" technology has a rather "complex pedigree." Toshiba originally owned the research center and production facility in Takasaki City, but it was later sold to Sanyo. (It is not clear just how much of the "break-through" technology originally came from Toshiba, and how much was subsequently developed by Sanyo.) Then, at the time of the Sanyo/Panasonic "merger" this particular battery production facility was sold to Fujitsu and the resulting company renamed* "*FDK TWICELL Co.,LTD." (To my understanding, Panasonic never actually owned this plant.)

So everything above is relatively clear, and easily determined by examining records of corporate filings. What we don't know is just what kind of agreement FDK reached with Panasonic, where Panasonic is obviously marketing the Eneloop cells that were once manufactured by Sanyo. FDK is extremely close-mouthed about this. Despite some public statements being made by distributors selling the Fujitsu brand cells manufactured by FDK (to the effect that the Fujitsu cells are "the same as Eneloops" and "made in the same plant"); FDK has consistently refused to make any public statements about whether or not they currently manufacturer Eneloop cells, and whether or not their Fujitsu cells are "the same as Eneloops." (It seems fairly obvious that they are bound by a rather stringent non-disclosure agreement.)

Based on information published on the Japanese internet (showing that tiny --almost microscopic-- imperfections that can be found on both the Fujitsu cells and Eneloop cells, indicate that they are being manufactured on the same production line), and based on *HJK*'s comparison testing; it seems clear to me that FDK is the only source of the Japanese made Eneloop cells that are currently being sold in Japan.

However, it is still very unclear me as to whether or not Panasonic may actually "own" the technology (or have full rights to it, based on some kind of licensing agreement). If they have rights to the technology, and are not prohibited from doing so, they could at anytime establish their own Eneloop manufacturing plant in Japan. So, depending on their rights (which would likely be exceedingly difficult to ascertain), being made in Japan may not necessarily be proof that you are getting "The real McCoy" or cells that are identical to the original (or later generations of) Sanyo Eneloop cells.

More troubling is the fact that, whether or not they own rights to the technology, Panasonic clearly owns the Eneloop name. So, Panasonic is free to change specifications and production methods as they wish, and still call the final product an "Eneloop."

Those of us who want the best, and appreciate the difference, owe *Power Me Up* a debt of gratitude for his extensive testing of Eneloop cells, since his efforts seem to demonstrate rather clearly that we should steer clear of Chinese made Eneloops, if possible.


----------



## Lynx_Arc

I will have to agree that the chinese eneloops appear to be akin to rayovac hybrids. I have some of them and they come out about 1000mah higher in capacity than the duraloops (japenese) that I have and are a lot more fragile if you overdischarge them in series it almost always significantly reduces their capacity. If I need more LSD cells I will probably stick with buying japanese duraloops here.


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## Power Me Up

kreisl said:


> I don't want to be shy myself  so lemme join your thread mark and say *thanks *so much for your serious testing efforts of cycling Eneloops hundreds of times. My iCharger can run CYCLE programs with up to 999 cycles, which is insane and awesome at the same time. What's the max number of cycles which the USC UltraSmartCharger supports?



I've currently got it set to limit the number of cycles to 100 which I think is plenty. I could very easily change it to allow up to about 125 but I kept it at 100 as a nice round number. With a few more changes, I could allow it to go up to literally a billion cycles but I think we can agree that it would be slightly overboard to allow that many! ;-)



> In the current MC3000 firmware this number is limited to N=10, a nice realistic reasonable practical number. As long as users don't express their case why they would want or need over 10 cycles in a charger-analyzer, the ten would stay that way i guess.



IMHO, 10 is a bit low. If I didn't have the USC and I was looking at purchasing the MC3000, I'd be asking for it to allow up to 100 as well (or at least 50) so that it could also do similar cycle testing without having to be babied all of the time.


----------



## Power Me Up

tripplec said:


> I checked a AAA I have and the latest black 2450mA Eneloops and they both say Made in Japan. I got the high capacity last year on eBay. I haven't check through the AA though at this time and it would be a bummer if they were made in China with short life characteristic.



As far as I'm aware (things can always change!) the high capacity Eneloops are only being made in Japan and I haven't heard anything to indicate that their production will be being moved to China.

Depending on your needs and usage, you may need to keep in mind that the high capacity Eneloops may not last as many cycles as you would expect:
http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?391756-Eneloop-XX-Vs-Turnigy-2400-Cycle-Testing


----------



## Power Me Up

tripplec said:


> I overlooked this point in the 1st post. If in fact these Chinese eneloops are built on different patents and technology. They they are nothing more than a clone best effort within.



Agreed - the Chinese Eneloops IMHO are an Eneloop in name only.



> This point would make me look for an alternative brand as good as the original Japanese Eneloop cell were.



It appears that the Fujitsu cells are identical to the Japanese made Eneloops and that they're made in the same factory.

Keep in mind that in this test at least, the Chinese cells did last longer than the original 1st gen Japanese cell that I previously tested - that could be down to cooler ambient temperatures though. My gut feeling is that the Chinese cells are somewhat similar to the 1st gen Japanese made Eneloops - they may be a bit better or a bit worse and that could also change depending on usage as well. Overall, I wouldn't go so far as to say that they're terrible, but my preference would be towards the Japanese cells since they do appear to be better.



> Cells used to mention the patents protecting them printed on the jacket. I wonder if that is still the case to compare new to old production.
> 
> This is bad if correct very bad and the tests implies clearly that something is off, a lot off.



Good idea to check for patent numbers. As far as I can see though, there aren't any patent numbers printed on the side of my Eneloops...


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## Power Me Up

Mr Floppy said:


> Being the firmware developer, he has his own firmware so he can set it to anything he likes. You can can too if you want to mod the firmware.



That's true. I don't have a special version of the firmware that I use for testing, but the chargers that I run do tend to have newer firmware as I'm testing changes that I make before I release the updated firmware for everyone else to use.



> I'm hoping for a version that will listen and take commands over serial. That way, you should be able to set any sort of program you like.



It's in the pipeline! 



> The testing method is important. It isn't just about cycles as special things happen on certain cycles.



I agree - it's definitely worth discussing the testing methods since invalid or incorrect tests mean that the results could be useless!


----------



## Power Me Up

Rosoku Chikara said:


> I would say that the greater part of this statement is not speculation. <snip>



Thanks for the informative post! I was pretty confident in that statement, but I wasn't aware of that information being published in the papers - I prefer to be explicit about being uncertain on things unless I'm absolutely certain.



> Those of us who want the best, and appreciate the difference, owe *Power Me Up* a debt of gratitude for his extensive testing of Eneloop cells, since his efforts seem to demonstrate rather clearly that we should steer clear of Chinese made Eneloops, if possible.



Thanks! 

I won't take all of the credit though. Sure - I wrote the firmware and ran the tests, but if it wasn't for Paul actually creating the charger and making them, I wouldn't have been able to do any of these tests!


----------



## Viking

I think the below takeover agreement between SANYO Energy Twicell and FDK pretty much confirms what Rosoku Chikara has said all along. The agreement states that Sanyo was forced to sell some of its battery business due to anti-trust laws before the company could be taken over by Panasonic. And the divested battery business was in fact the Nimh business ( except for automobile use ). That must have included eneloops as I see it.




> On the other hand, SANYO has been seeking a third party to accept transfer of part of
> its battery business, as SANYO is required to do based on information obtained through
> consultations with multilateral competition law authorities of many countries, in
> response to a takeover bid(“TOB”) of SANYO by Panasonic Corporation..
> 
> 
> http://www.fdk.co.jp/whatsnew-e/release091028b-e.pdf


----------



## ChibiM

Thanks for the tests PowerMeUp. 
now it would also be interesting to see what their counter parts (other brands) have to offer. Although I don`t really like the idea that there are lesser quality eneloops on the market. I don`t worry too much myself for not getting Japanese eneloops 

Looking forward to more testing. 

on a side note, Im a little curious why the Japanese cells have even more cycles than your earlier tests.


----------



## tripplec

So I wonder who if anyone new in the NiMH LSD market which might be using Eneloop tech and spec's on their batteries. Something from someone must be out there using the Eneloop patent technology in this space.


----------



## Rosoku Chikara

tripplec said:


> So I wonder who if anyone new in the NiMH LSD market which might be using Eneloop tech and spec's on their batteries. Something from someone must be out there using the Eneloop patent technology in this space.



While anything is possible, I feel it is unlikely that there are any other technology ownership/licensing arrangements, other than that which may (or may not) exist between Panasonic and FDK. (I mention "may not," because it is possible that even Panasonic owns no rights to the technology, and that any and all "real" Eneloops are only made by FDK. Under such circumstances, Panasonic would be forced to purchase cells from FDK "forever," if they wanted the "real thing." FKD, however, could easily be bound by a non-disclosure agreement which prevents them from telling the world that Panasonic doesn't own the technology.)

So based on the above, I would say you only have two choices: Panasonic ("Made in Japan") and FDK. I would say that comparing HKJ's testing results using his battery comparator, indicate quite clearly that the following two brands of cells are in fact the "same" cell: 

http://lygte-info.dk/review/batteries2012/CommonAAcomparator.php

Here is a comparison chart for Panasonic - Eneloop AA BK-3MCC 1900mAh (White) vs. FDK- Fujitsu AA HR-3UTA 1900mAh (White):





Here is a chart for Panasonic - Eneloop AA BK-3HCC 2450mAh (Black) vs. FDK - Fujitsu AA HR-3UTHA 2400mAh (Silver):




I suspect that the greater variation between the "black" (XX or Pro) and "silver" high capacity cells, probably stems from the fact that the increased capacity pushes the technology near it limits, and "pushing the envelop" in such a manner results in greater variation between both cells within the same "batch" and between "batches" of cells. (You will also notice that FDK has elected to rate theirs at "only" 2400mAh.)

In the case of the while or regular cells, the graphs are uncannily close, and demonstrate to my satisfaction that they are indeed the same cell.


----------



## Richwouldnt

Not sure of the technology but the black wrapper Amazon Basics high capacity LSD NiMH batteries look to have the same negative end and positive tip as my Sanyo Eneloop XX batteries do and they are listed as made in Japan and charged using solar energy. IIRC these are the same claims I have seen for Eneloops and the parts stampings and finish appear to be identical except for wrapper details and information stamped on them. I wish someone with proper equipment would do a comparison of Japanese made Amazon Basics NiMH batteries and Japanese Eneloops, both regular and high capacity versions.


----------



## Rosoku Chikara

Richwouldnt said:


> ...Not sure of the technology but the black wrapper Amazon Basics...appear to be identical...<snip>



My post was referring to who else (if anyone else) might have access to the "real" Sanyo Eneloop technology. As far as OEM packaging, however, I believe FDK has been fairly aggressive, and to my knowledge remains fairly aggressive, in their efforts to sell their product under a variety of brands...

*CPF branded "Eneloops" anyone? *(I believe such a deal could easily be made, but prices are probably much higher than what any of us would prefer, and minimum quantities would likely be quite large.)


----------



## Power Me Up

ChibiM said:


> Thanks for the tests PowerMeUp.
> now it would also be interesting to see what their counter parts (other brands) have to offer.



I previously did a test on a pair of Ikea Ladda cells:
http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb...ccelerated-Cycle-Testing&highlight=ikea+ladda



> Although I don`t really like the idea that there are lesser quality eneloops on the market. I don`t worry too much myself for not getting Japanese eneloops



As long as you're able to get them and are willing to sell them to the rest of us, we should be OK! ;-)



> Looking forward to more testing.



Working on it!



> on a side note, Im a little curious why the Japanese cells have even more cycles than your earlier tests.



I think that the most likely reason is that this testing was done over winter, compared to the previous test being done over the heat of summer.

The test method was also slightly different - with the previous test, I was discharging into a fixed resistance - the current dropped off as the cell voltage declined, so the cells were getting a slightly deeper discharge which may have also been a factor as well. There could of course be other reasons as well...


----------



## jimbo231

Hate when companies chinch to save and make more money.....:thumbsdow


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## WalkIntoTheLight

Unfortunately, I doubt the mass market will notice any decrease in quality. Most people don't keep cells more than a few years, and don't use them more than 100 charges. For the mass consumer, Panasonic knows it can lower quality and people won't care.


----------



## Kurt_Woloch

FDK also has a homepage for their batteries, here: http://www.fdk.com/cyber-e/pi_bt_fujitsunimh.html

I know it's written in slightly broken English, but they claim the same specs for their cells that Eneloops had (i.e. 70% charge retention after 5 years). Somewhere (but not on that page) they also claim they're the only manufacturer of LSD cells in Japan. If that's true, any LSD cells made in Japan would be rebadged FDK / "formerly known as Eneloop" cells. Of course, Fujitsu Rechargeable, in contrast to Eneloop, is not a very household name, but still their cells are available at some (at least online) retailers.

My reaction to this is that I will not specifically look for Eneloop cells anymore since any other LSD cells might be as good as the Chinese Eneloops. But I will look out for LSD cells made in Japan!


----------



## BillSWPA

WalkIntoTheLight said:


> Unfortunately, I doubt the mass market will notice any decrease in quality. Most people don't keep cells more than a few years, and don't use them more than 100 charges. For the mass consumer, Panasonic knows it can lower quality and people won't care.



I am new to rechargeable cells, but I wonder why this is. Are people not taking proper care of their cells? Are people assuming that their cells need to be replaced prematurely?

In my case, I was counting on the 1,000+ recharges claimed by the makers to ensure that, once I have a sizable supply, I will not need to buy cells for quite a long time.


----------



## AB8XL

I see the FDK TWICELL HR-3UTG AA's on Digikey.com

http://www.digikey.com/product-search/en?mpart=HR-3UTG&vendor=935


----------



## MidnightDistortions

WalkIntoTheLight said:


> Unfortunately, I doubt the mass market will notice any decrease in quality. Most people don't keep cells more than a few years, and don't use them more than 100 charges. For the mass consumer, Panasonic knows it can lower quality and people won't care.





BillSWPA said:


> I am new to rechargeable cells, but I wonder why this is. Are people not taking proper care of their cells? Are people assuming that their cells need to be replaced prematurely?
> 
> In my case, I was counting on the 1,000+ recharges claimed by the makers to ensure that, once I have a sizable supply, I will not need to buy cells for quite a long time.



Ah the days where the batteries lasted longer than the chargers did. I have an Eveready charger (NiCad) that stopped working after 3 years, the batteries still work to this day. Then i had 2 Rayovac NiMH chargers go out on me. If i knew you could charge NiMH batteries with any chargers i would have thrown them in the Energizer charger and i might have gotten more use out of the Rayovacs before they stopped providing a decent charge.

I would expect to get 10 years out of my rechargeables based on my usage.. so far the Duracells are winning but the Energizers are not totally bad either, though on the 2500mAh AA ones they have really high self discharge. Of course even with the dumb chargers that are out there you probably wouldn't get much more then 100 charges or a couple of years out of them, especially the timer chargers. Most people don't know to drain their batteries fully, even with NiMHs.. that's probably why they managed to survive the dumb chargers i have. Thankfully the days of having to fully drain the batteries have ended with smart chargers and you can start weeding out the bad batteries from the good ones.

With that being said, it would be nice if the quality of stuff would increase over the years, but sometimes they can with the proper research. I like finding new ways to use AA batteries so as the need for AA batteries increase the higher the chance i might get a new pack of Eneloops, but hopefully the quality won't go down, i certainly don't mind paying a premium for good quality ones, i think they should offer that for those who prefer quality over quantity.


----------



## SuLyMaN

Thank you Sir for a real eye opener. This is kind of depressing for Eneloop users.


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## BillSWPA

FWIW I recently ordered a bunch of Eneloops, without specifying that I wanted made in Japan. The packages that arrived all said made in Japan. At least one dealer in the US is still selling Eneloops that were made in Japan.


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## Madcow07

BillSWPA said:


> FWIW I recently ordered a bunch of Eneloops, without specifying that I wanted made in Japan. The packages that arrived all said made in Japan. At least one dealer in the US is still selling Eneloops that were made in Japan.



The Eneloops Costco has currently are made in Japan. The included charger is made in China.


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## Illum

Are the packaging of the batteries physically different or they look identical but stamped "made in China?"


----------



## Power Me Up

Illum said:


> Are the packaging of the batteries physically different or they look identical but stamped "made in China?"



Comparing a pack of Tropical 3rd Gen Made in Japan Eneloops to a pack of Chocolat "4th Gen" Made in China Eneloops, the packaging is similar, but they have changed the formatting on the back - things are moved around, etc. The Japanese made pack has "Made in Japan" written on it prominently. The Chinese made pack has "Made in China" in somewhat smaller print - took me a bit to find it even though I was looking for it!

Interestingly, both packs claimed that they were usable down to -20 degrees C, but the Chinese pack has a table listing usable temperature ranges - for discharging, it says -5 degrees C to 50 degrees C. I'm not sure whether that's an error in leaving the -20 C claim on the packet, or if they're just saying that -5 C is the lowest recommended temperature...

Would be interesting to run a test on both versions to see if there is a significant difference at -20 C!


----------



## MidnightDistortions

Not sure if i mentioned this, but i did notice that slightly overcharging regular NiMHs do increase mAh, not sure if that also helps with overall life but i also noticed an improvement on my crappy Energizer batteries when i purposely try to overcharge them in my La Crosse charger by taking them out and putting them back in on a relatively high mA rate. I did these on my Rayovac batteries (that are probably dying) and they increased a bit in voltage. The lowest finished charge was around 1.2 volts but i managed to get one of them from 1.2 to 1.3 volts from repeat charging.

In conclusion it does seem that the Chinese cells are more susceptible to the high resistance from repeat discharging and probably would require heavier trickle charging then the Japanese cells.


----------



## WalkIntoTheLight

MidnightDistortions said:


> I did these on my Rayovac batteries (that are probably dying) and they increased a bit in voltage. The lowest finished charge was around 1.2 volts but i managed to get one of them from 1.2 to 1.3 volts from repeat charging.



1.30 volts is still very low for a full charge. Good batteries should be over 1.50 volts when fully charged (they'll drop quickly after charging, settling at about 1.40 volts or slightly under after a few hours). Even my dying batteries charge to about 1.35 volts. The only time I've had cells charge less than that is when they really are dead (won't hold a charge for more than a few days, and won't provide more than a few milliamps of current).


----------



## NoNotAgain

MidnightDistortions said:


> Not sure if i mentioned this, but i did notice that slightly overcharging regular NiMHs do increase mAh, not sure if that also helps with overall life but i also noticed an improvement on my crappy Energizer batteries when i purposely try to overcharge them in my La Crosse charger by taking them out and putting them back in on a relatively high mA rate. I did these on my Rayovac batteries (that are probably dying) and they increased a bit in voltage. The lowest finished charge was around 1.2 volts but i managed to get one of them from 1.2 to 1.3 volts from repeat charging.



I've been able to purchase a few kits of Panasonic 4th generation Eneloops, the packs contain 10 AA and 4 AAA batteries with charger BQ-CC17. All of the packages indicate cells are made in Japan with the charger made in China.

After first use I run them thru my Maha C9000 charger and run a conditioning cycle that takes about 36 hours to run. On this charger you set the mAh cell rating and allow it to cycle the cell from full charge to full discharge then recharge. When I set the charger for a 1900 mAh cell AA version, I see the charge cycle indicate that the voltage tops out around 1.45-1.47 volts, and the discharge capacity over 2600 mAh.

I don't use the Panasonic supplied charger as I've got to a point that I don't trust idiot lights on chargers.

I know that some here don't like eBay, but I've had success purchasing from them as well as Battery Junction.

Other than a couple of my meters, I'm alkaline cell free.


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## WalkIntoTheLight

NoNotAgain;4545579
After first use I run them thru my Maha C9000 charger and run a conditioning cycle that takes about 36 hours to run. I see the charge cycle indicate that the voltage tops out around 1.45-1.47 volts said:


> Note that the C9000 has a hard-set maximum charge of 1.47v (for regular charging). With Eneloops, this never gets to the -dV termination point (which is somewhere around 1.55v). So, if you took the cells out at this stage, they wouldn't quite be fully charged. However, it then trickle charges for a couple of hours, which should fully charge them (maybe even over-charging?).
> 
> I think older (non LSD) batteries has a lower full-charge voltage, so the 1.47v was likely implemented as a precaution against overcharging (in case the -dV signal was missed).


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## JerryM

I just looked at eBay and Japanese AA Eneloops are running around $4 each. At that price what do you think of Tenergy as a reasonable substitution?
Thanks,
Jerry


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## MidnightDistortions

WalkIntoTheLight said:


> 1.30 volts is still very low for a full charge. Good batteries should be over 1.50 volts when fully charged (they'll drop quickly after charging, settling at about 1.40 volts or slightly under after a few hours). Even my dying batteries charge to about 1.35 volts. The only time I've had cells charge less than that is when they really are dead (won't hold a charge for more than a few days, and won't provide more than a few milliamps of current).



Well keep in mind that these cells were bought in 1999 then left to self discharge since 2003-2005 and i suddenly resurrected them in 2014. I don't recall what the voltage was on them but they couldn't have been more than 0.1volt. I have been using the downtime on my LaCrosse charger to hook them up to the charger, just now one of the batteries just made it to 1.5 volts while the other two are still around 1.3 volts now. I think the -dV signal keeps engaging prematurely due to the batteries being so old they probably are not able to sustain a charge even when they are recharging. 



NoNotAgain said:


> I've been able to purchase a few kits of Panasonic 4th generation Eneloops, the packs contain 10 AA and 4 AAA batteries with charger BQ-CC17. All of the packages indicate cells are made in Japan with the charger made in China.
> 
> After first use I run them thru my Maha C9000 charger and run a conditioning cycle that takes about 36 hours to run. On this charger you set the mAh cell rating and allow it to cycle the cell from full charge to full discharge then recharge. When I set the charger for a 1900 mAh cell AA version, I see the charge cycle indicate that the voltage tops out around 1.45-1.47 volts, and the discharge capacity over 2600 mAh.
> 
> I don't use the Panasonic supplied charger as I've got to a point that I don't trust idiot lights on chargers.
> 
> I know that some here don't like eBay, but I've had success purchasing from them as well as Battery Junction.
> 
> Other than a couple of my meters, I'm alkaline cell free.



Yeah i prefer using a smart charger with the LCD info for the batteries. Still the Panasonic supplied chargers are pretty cheap and if you need a charger on the go, those work well. 




WalkIntoTheLight said:


> Note that the C9000 has a hard-set maximum charge of 1.47v (for regular charging). With Eneloops, this never gets to the -dV termination point (which is somewhere around 1.55v). So, if you took the cells out at this stage, they wouldn't quite be fully charged. However, it then trickle charges for a couple of hours, which should fully charge them (maybe even over-charging?).
> 
> I think older (non LSD) batteries has a lower full-charge voltage, so the 1.47v was likely implemented as a precaution against overcharging (in case the -dV signal was missed).



I think you're right with leaving Eneloops sit for a couple of hours on the C9000 but if the charger is hard set at 1.47 volts and Eneloops charge up to 1.55 volts, leaving them on the charger for a few hours on trickle charging shouldn't hurt them depending on the trickle charge rate. If you're like me that tends to fully or near fully discharge the batteries the LaCrosse charger might be better as the voltage is not hard set or at least i don't think it is, since i've managed to get my older AAA Energizers up to 1.52 volts (at 200mA) before charging terminates.


----------



## WalkIntoTheLight

MidnightDistortions said:


> Well keep in mind that these cells were bought in 1999 then left to self discharge since 2003-2005 and i suddenly resurrected them in 2014. I don't recall what the voltage was on them but they couldn't have been more than 0.1volt. I have been using the downtime on my LaCrosse charger to hook them up to the charger, just now one of the batteries just made it to 1.5 volts while the other two are still around 1.3 volts now. I think the -dV signal keeps engaging prematurely due to the batteries being so old they probably are not able to sustain a charge even when they are recharging.



Yes, I think that's likely. I find on my very old NiMH cells, that they need to be charged very slowly or the charger will prematurely end charge. About 250mA charge rate is all they can take. They still charge up pretty well, but it has to be done slowly.



> I think you're right with leaving Eneloops sit for a couple of hours on the C9000 but if the charger is hard set at 1.47 volts and Eneloops charge up to 1.55 volts, leaving them on the charger for a few hours on trickle charging shouldn't hurt them depending on the trickle charge rate.



I recall that someone on this forum did some trickle-charge tests on Eneloops. IIRC, the results were that Eneloops were damaged quite easily by trickle-charging, and that you shouldn't do it. (A week or so killed them completely.) A couple of hours may not harm them, but it all adds up and I wouldn't do it intentionally.


----------



## MidnightDistortions

WalkIntoTheLight said:


> Yes, I think that's likely. I find on my very old NiMH cells, that they need to be charged very slowly or the charger will prematurely end charge. About 250mA charge rate is all they can take. They still charge up pretty well, but it has to be done slowly.
> 
> 
> I recall that someone on this forum did some trickle-charge tests on Eneloops. IIRC, the results were that Eneloops were damaged quite easily by trickle-charging, and that you shouldn't do it. (A week or so killed them completely.) A couple of hours may not harm them, but it all adds up and I wouldn't do it intentionally.




I need to design a trickle charging system for those older batteries. They work fine in remotes or clocks, though if the clocks need to be reset each time the battery dies, it's more worth putting in a battery (or batteries) that will last more than several months. I just like messing with them seeing what they could be used for and that way i don't really have to buy 30-60 Eneloops just to have them for everything (though i am slowly replacing the alkalines with Eneloops!) So the older cells are useful in that manner. The nice thing about using the older cells in the tv/dvd/blu ray remotes is that for one no alkaileakings and i save all the better cells for flashlights, portable cd players, USB chargers.

Yeah, once Eneloops are fully charged, they are fully charged. Since the good Japanese cells retain 90% after a year, even leaving them sit for a few hours on trickle charging could damage them, which i think would make the Panasonic chargers more reliable in that they don't continue charging after they hit -dV. Otherwise you'll have to monitor the charger and disconnect the batteries once they hit full. The PowerEx charger though like i said i've read that it will charge up to about 80% before it's done as some users have noticed a lack of mA capacities with those chargers compared to the LaCrosse charger.

With that being said, i have noticed that shallower discharges do not require topping off as much as if you were to fully discharge the battery. I do have to ask whether those results happened to include refreshing the batteries or if they were sitting on the shelf for a set amount over time. I have done carts at Target and we got a cart pusher with the non maintenance deep cycle batteries and even though the cart pusher has a smart charger, it continues to top off at the end of the charge and after dealing with some bad batteries (that the company had to replace a couple of times) it's best to either recharge when the batteries are low and do an overnight charge or charge for a few hours on a regular basis. The first set of batteries they had were severely overcharged, the batteries only lasted a few hours before giving out, the second set were not the right kind. They were smaller so the charger most likely was pushing too much current (even though it's a smart charger) when the batteries were 50% discharged, so no matter what we did.. those batteries eventually dropped dead once the battery level was around 40-50% in it's discharge cycle (it didn't help that they were left in a 30% discharged state overnight). Neither of those sets of batteries lasted more than 2 years.

Finally though we got it right, you discharge the batteries upon first usage down to at least 20% before a full overnight charge and regularly charge them around 40%, sometimes i let it drop to 30% but the other thing is during the busy times when we're outside all day with it pushing an average of 18 carts, you could deplete at least 50% of the charge and i think those marine RV deep cycle batteries don't like a huge amount of current being pumped through or somewhat similar to the alkalines when the voltage starts to sag, but recharging them when you got help or have a few hours of downtime helps them out considerably. I think the main problem with those batteries/charger though is there is no automatic shut off so if no one uses the machine for 16 hours or more it just will keep feeding energy into the batteries but i don't think it would really do too much if they were drained out to 20-30% every 6 months or so.

Anyway i'm typing up a storm here lol, but yeah for sure those Eneloops, even the Energizers and Duracells i will just charge them until the charger says they are full and take them out afterwards. For anything else, especially older batteries the trickle charging is beneficial. Plus a little overcharging won't do much harm if you get it just right i think the batteries will retain a charge better though the only thing i got to go on is the HSD Duracells which still last several months on a single charge. The 2500mAh Energizers won't hold a charge for long (probably because their charge cycles has been used up already), but the AAA 900mAh Energizers do just fine and at the time i paired the name brand charger with the same brand batteries, infact some of those AAA Energizers have gained mAh over use, since i got the La Crosse charger.. one of them started out with just under 550mAh and now produce about 640mAh.


----------



## Power Me Up

Testing is now complete, so I've updated the chart in the first post.

The Japanese Eneloops lasted for about double the number of cycles that the Chinese Eneloops managed in this test. Please note that the Japanese Eneloops had a lower end capacity than the Chinese Eneloops. Note also, that in all cases, the cells failed due to high internal resistance - the cells are still able to put out a reasonable capacity at low discharge rates.


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## Viking

Excellent!
They sure don't seem to be the same batteries , regardless what panasonic try to make us believe. 

I would personally also like to see a test with the evolta and Fujitsu cells ( FDK ) , for comparison to respectively the Chinese and Japanese made eneloops.


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## Rosoku Chikara

Viking said:


> Excellent!
> They sure don't seem to be the same batteries , regardless what panasonic try to make us believe.
> 
> I would personally also like to see a test with the evolta and Fujitsu cells ( FDK ) , for comparison to respectively the Chinese and Japanese made eneloops.



I believe (with a fair amount of confidence) that Fujitsu FDK cells *are* the only Japanese made Eneloops. (I am almost certain that all Japanese Eneloops are, and have always been, manufactured at the FDK plant. That plant used to be called Sanyo before it was sold to Fujitsu.)


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## Viking

Hi Rosoku Chikara 

Thanks to your thoroughly research on the matter , that you was kind enough to share with us I'm convinced you are right. Maybe such a test isn't really necessary after all. We also have HKJ's discharge curve to compare , where the cells look identical to me.


The evolta test I would like to see though


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## samgab

Thanks for doing these tests and publishing the results.
It's very disappointing, but not at all unexpected. 
There seems to be a different level of pride in product quality and work ethic in Japanese vs Chinese manufacturing chains, from the top right down, and that shows in the products that come out. It's a real shame. It will devalue the brand. 
The thing that was always awesome about eneloops, and which set them apart from other brands, was they were so consistently good and performed reliably as expected every time. You could take a pack of 4, and they would all be the same voltage, they would be almost perfectly matched, and you could depend on their longevity and endurance, even if abused somewhat. I guess those days are over. Only the Chinese eneloops are available now where I live.


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## Bullzeyebill

Just me talking as a flashaholic, big US, and other world countries have products made in China, and other countries. They monitor closely, or should, the production of their products. Look at Apple, their products, are awesome, and well made, because they set up and monitor the production of their products. We should look at the specs of the Eneloops as specified by Panasonic being made overseas, and make our decisions based on that and not spend so much time degenerating countries that produce, such as China.

Bill


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## Power Me Up

Bullzeyebill said:


> We should look at the specs of the Eneloops as specified by Panasonic...



And if the products don't match their specifications?


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## WalkIntoTheLight

Power Me Up said:


> And if the products don't match their specifications?



+1

This whole thread is because Panasonic's claim (that Chinese Eneloops are as good as Japanese Eneloops) is not correct. It looks like the Chinese Eneloops have only half the number of cycles as the Japanese ones! That's pathetic production standards or quality control.

Sure, China _could_ make a better product. But they're not. I don't know if that's Panasonics's fault, or the Chinese factory's fault. Probably, both. It doesn't seem like Panasonic really cares. They bought the Eneloop brand, and they've cut the quality to milk whatever profit they can get out of it before people catch on. Very short sighted, IMO.


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## samgab

WalkIntoTheLight said:


> +1 ...before people catch on. Very short sighted, IMO.



You're exactly right. Because; as the "65% charge retained after 5 years in storage" claim can't be verified for at least 5 years from now, and they've taken away the 1 year, 2 year, 3 year, incremental charge-retention claims that the Japan-produced items have, it ensures that the 5 year proof of claim time delay is there. So they can milk the eneloop brand for at least 5 years while making cheap, inferior cells to the original eneloop cells which built up the reputation in the first place, and then whatever, flick the brand off to another company because they've made tons of profit in the 5 years. It's pretty smart in a short-sighted kind of way, but not good for customers, and not good for the long term. 
What I said is not a race thing, I'm simply stating observations based on evidence. I'm not saying anything negative about _individuals_ of any nationality. And yes, there are some companies that enforce very stringent quality control measures where-ever the production is based, but there are general observations which hold true in a majority of cases, such as Japanese and German produced goods are often of high precision and quality. This isn't always true, I'm sure some tat comes out of those countries too, it's just a reputation which is built on many cases of this being overwhelmingly accurate. And based on the facts in the first post of this thread, it seems to hold true in the case of Panasonic's eneloops too. And it's disappointing. I've lost confidence in the eneloop brand.


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## MidnightDistortions

Bullzeyebill said:


> Just me talking as a flashaholic, big US, and other world countries have products made in China, and other countries. They monitor closely, or should, the production of their products. Look at Apple, their products, are awesome, and well made, because they set up and monitor the production of their products. We should look at the specs of the Eneloops as specified by Panasonic being made overseas, and make our decisions based on that and not spend so much time degenerating countries that produce, such as China.
> 
> Bill



I have plenty of products that are made in China and are pretty reliable. Sure there might be a lot of defective or just poorly designed or produced stuff from China but often times i don't really notice the difference what what country a product was made in. That and if it does break there's a slight chance that i might be able to fix it! But this is really talking about which Eneloops are better with some testing, the Japanese Eneloops are clearly more reliable and most would prefer to keep it that way. This topic wasn't or isn't about degenerating China or praising Japan.. even Japanese products fail. It's about the Chinese Eneloops having lesser quality than the Japanese ones. Therefore i would prefer to have the Japanese brand over the Chinese brand .


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## Rosoku Chikara

MidnightDistortions said:


> ...This topic wasn't or isn't about degenerating China...<snip>



I believe the word you are looking for is "denigrating"; a somewhat risky word in this age of runaway political correctness. But, as you know, it is a perfectly good English word with origins dating back to the 1700s and has nothing to do with racism.

Anyway, as to your point, I could not agree with you more. I own many excellent Chinese products, and Japanese consumer products are increasingly being manufactured in China. As part of my profession, I often find myself "lecturing" Japanese corporations that they cannot afford to rest on their laurels, because (at least in principle) Chinese manufacturers are just as capable of good quality control as Japanese manufacturers. 

That having been said, there is, however, a certain "uncanny" aspect to many (most?) Japanese factory workers' personal work ethic, dedication and pride in their own workmanship. As I understand it, the US Defense Department was astonished at the significantly lower failure rates of F-15 fighter jets that were manufactured under license by the Japanese.

In many cases, Japanese manufacturers have taken their quality control, and often relatively small advantages in technology, to such an extreme that their subtle "superiority" over their foreign competitiors is not readily discernible by the vast majority of consumers. Japanese consumers are increasingly understanding that it is often a poor cost/performance trade-off to insist on products that are made in Japan. Foreign products are often "just as good" and available at a much lower price.


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## Big_Sam

I just got a brand new four pack of 3rd gen Japanese eneloops with the date 12/12 and opened up and checked on the multimeter, 1.299 1.299 1.299 1.300 seems well made to me as very consistent. 
Interestingly when put on the charger they took about an hour which going by the charge rate was approx 20% loss since new - assuming they were 100% when left the factory, more likely they were not charged to full and my unscientific conclusion is that they have lost hardly any charge. 

I am stocking up on 3rd gens as they are still available here in the UK.


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## MidnightDistortions

^ Factory charge level i have found to vary a bit with different production sets and the best way to test Eneloops capacity is to do a break-in.



Rosoku Chikara said:


> I believe the word you are looking for is "denigrating"; a somewhat risky word in this age of runaway political correctness. But, as you know, it is a perfectly good English word with origins dating back to the 1700s and has nothing to do with racism.
> 
> Anyway, as to your point, I could not agree with you more. I own many excellent Chinese products, and increasingly Japanese consumer products are being manufactured in China. As part of my profession, I often find myself "lecturing" Japanese corporations that they cannot afford to rest on their laurels, because (at least in principle) Chinese manufacturers are just as capable of good quality control as Japanese manufacturers.
> 
> That having been said, there is, however, a certain "uncanny" aspect to many (most?) Japanese factory workers' personal work ethic, dedication and pride in their own workmanship. As I understand it, the US Defense Department was astonished at the significantly lower failure rates of F-15 fighter jets that were manufactured under license by the Japanese.
> 
> In many cases, Japanese manufacturers have taken their quality control, and often relatively small advantages in technology, to such an extreme that their subtle "superiority" over their foreign competitions is not readily discernible by the vast majority of consumers. Japanese consumers are increasingly understanding that it is often a poor cost/performance trade-off to insist on products that are made in Japan. Foreign products are often "just as good" and available at a much lower price.



lol well thanks for pointing out the difference between _degenerating_ and _denigrating_. The word you suggested is better. You made some good points with the Japanese work ethics/quality work . I think the Chinese factories offer less for more is great, but i've read/heard reports some Chinese factories have poor working conditions and some of them lure people into thinking they have a good career opportunity by working at these factories. As a result many unhappy workers are there and that would be a definitive reason China gets the 'poor quality' criticism. I can't say for sure how the working environment is for Chinese Eneloop/Panasonic factory but i certainly think Panasonic should do everything they can to keep their products of good quality.

I just wonder if some Executive there is probably thinking it's not a big deal and 'no one would take notice' that Eneloops quality has declined so people would buy more. Either with this thread or another one i had a discussion on how long do Eneloops last if you don't use up all the recharge cycles and the consensus was that Eneloops (the Japanese brand anyhow) would last 10 years providing that you took care of them before capacity drops dramatically. It's still not bad considering traditional NiMHs quality generally drops after 5 years but could possibly last longer than that depending on the cells and were well taken care of. There's no objection that a company needs to stay in business by repetitive sales and already rechargeables have the possibility of digging into alkaline sales and companies would make less so the price of the better battery would go up and often times you will have to employ a planned obsolescence no matter what. Companies could probably make a battery that never needs replacing or with a bit of maintenance could last indefinitely. I think the LSD technology was mostly implemented because HSD batteries sit and degrade from non use so that money spent on resources to get the product on the shelf that sits for several years is probably no good so LSD batteries are the solution to that problem. Whether Sanyo or the actual creator of Eneloops wanted a more reliable battery for their consumers, it's naturally too that people would buy something that would last and work better than alkalines or what the current rechargeable technology was during that time.

So in all i think Panasonic is only concerned in saving production money to sell Eneloops for less, with lesser quality. However in my mind, the reason for paying quality, premium NiMHs besides better performance is that they are durable, the whole reason i switched to rechargeables is that it's more cost effective, keeps the environment clean and it saves on needing resources to get them on the shelf. Even recycling requires expending some resources and i am conscientious about that, one of the more reasons why i keep crap cells as well, if it powers anything it's useful .


----------



## Bullzeyebill

Rosoku Chikara said:


> I believe the word you are looking for is "denigrating"; a somewhat risky word in this age of runaway political correctness. But, as you know, it is a perfectly good English word with origins dating back to the 1700s and has nothing to do with racism.



Thanks for the correction. I have used that meaning many times, and am surprised I misspelled it.

Bill


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## Kurt_Woloch

Well, I think the quality of Chinese products wildly depends on the product manager and quality control. I once talked to an employee of a now long defunct company importing and selling Chinese products here in Austria which they had the Chinese brand for them. He told me that some Chinese workers produced parts for products without actually knowing what the purpose of that part would be (or even the product). Then they sent a quality control manager to China who explained to the workers what their parts and products are actually good for. Once they learned that, they made suggestions by themselves how to improve the product and the production, and quality increased. That being said, I don't know what the relation of Panasonic to their Chinese Eneloop supplier is. Maybe Panasonic told the Chinese they needed to meet the same specifications, and the Chinese told Panasonic they would meet the specifications, but didn't, and Panasonic didn't to any extensive tests and didn't notice, or they sold the batteries anyway because they thought the customers wouldn't notice. Or Panasonic didn't care about if the claims made by the original manufacturers still hold true with the Chinese made batteries. As I said, I think it depends how tight a grip Panasonic has on the Chinese supplier.


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## Mr Floppy

WalkIntoTheLight said:


> It looks like the Chinese Eneloops have only half the number of cycles as the Japanese ones! That's pathetic production standards or quality control.



Or they don't have the same technology behind the original Eneloop and that the FDK cell is still a closely guarded secret.

I don't think it is a quality or production issue, they are just not the same cell. The Chinese eneloop is similar to all the other cheap LSD cells that come out of the place. More voltage sag, quicker rise in internal resistance.


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## WalkIntoTheLight

Costco Canada (on-line) has Eneloops on sale this week. They list them as 2100 cycles and 70% after 5 years. I think this means they're the Japanese ones (the Chinese ones have 65% on the package). I ordered a bunch, so crossing my fingers they have the description right. Might be one of the last chances to get real Eneloops before they all get made in China.


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## Sarratt

regarding the Costco Canada Eneloops on sale ..the model they give is BK3MCCA16MA ---- take away the 16MA and BK3MCCA search results in what seems to be 3rd Generation made in Japan. I'm judging by Amazon discussions and photos of the cells posted there.

Edited to add if you look at ChibiMs' post http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?364607-Overview-All-eneloop-batteries-2005-2014 and look for BK-3MCC he says they are 2013 model BUT 4th generation. 

:thinking:


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## WalkIntoTheLight

I got my order today. They are indeed still made in Japan (written on the battery wrapper). Model numbers BK3MCCA and BK4MCCA (AA and AAA respectively). Manufactured March 2014. So, it looks like they're still making them in Japan, at least earlier this year.


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## ChibiM

Yes, 4th gen were already being sold in Japan since April 2013. But only started to being available overseas from about May 2014. At that time (2013)they produced 2 versions along each other. Now the whole production has moved to the latest generation.

Sent from my KFTT using Tapatalk


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## n3eg

I noticed that Amazon Basics LSD batteries are still labeled as Made In Japan, and have the Eneloop type button with the side holes.


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## WalkIntoTheLight

n3eg said:


> I noticed that Amazon Basics LSD batteries are still labeled as Made In Japan, and have the Eneloop type button with the side holes.



My 4th gen don't seem to have any vent holes.

I'm not sure what gen the Amazon ones are, but the specs indicate they are gen 1. Probably not that old, but maybe gen 2?


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## MidnightDistortions

WalkIntoTheLight said:


> My 4th gen don't seem to have any vent holes.
> 
> I'm not sure what gen the Amazon ones are, but the specs indicate they are gen 1. Probably not that old, but maybe gen 2?



I don't have vent holes either on my set which are dated April and May of this year. Unless he took the wrapper off there is no way to tell where the vent holes are located.


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## DIΩDΣ

Ok so I havent bought batteries in over a year and now I find out this when I go looking. But I'm confused, amazon still indicates both thier white and black amazon basics AAs are made in Japan. Are they lying? Will they say made in China when they actually come? I assume if the product does not match the description a return can be made at no cost to me anyhow right?


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## Kestrel

DIΩDΣ;4558699 said:


> Ok so I havent bought batteries in over a year and now I find out this when I go looking. But I'm confused, amazon still indicates both thier white and black amazon basics AAs are made in Japan. Are they lying? Will they say made in China when they actually come? I assume if the product does not match the description a return can be made at no cost to me anyhow right?


I recently ordered & rec'd a good quantity of Eneloops via Amazon and was happy to see that they were still Japan-mfg.
However, depending on which company is actually fulfilling the Amazon order, returns could range from easy to very challenging - I have been very unimpressed with the business practices of some.


----------



## Richwouldnt

DIΩDΣ;4558699 said:


> Ok so I havent bought batteries in over a year and now I find out this when I go looking. But I'm confused, amazon still indicates both thier white and black amazon basics AAs are made in Japan. Are they lying? Will they say made in China when they actually come? I assume if the product does not match the description a return can be made at no cost to me anyhow right?



White 2000 mAh and black 2500 mAh Amazon Basics all say made in Japan. Black 2000 mAh Amazon Basics, the cheapies, are Chinese. Some Amazon listings do not say so you need to check the questions and answers area to get the where made info.


----------



## Glofindel

sorry for stupide question but how to spot chinese eneloop and japanese?


----------



## ChibiM

I think the easiest way is to search for the text: "Made in Japan" or "Made in China"


----------



## Glofindel

ChibiM said:


> I think the easiest way is to search for the text: "Made in Japan" or "Made in China"


Lol thank you.


----------



## ChibiM

Seriously though.. it should be written on the battery.


----------



## Madcow07

ChibiM said:


> Seriously though.. it should be written on the battery.



The Eneloops I recently purchased from Costco are marked "Made in Japan" on the batteries and package..


----------



## WalkIntoTheLight

Madcow07 said:


> The Eneloops I recently purchased from Costco are marked "Made in Japan" on the batteries and package..



I think he was joking. Every generation of Eneloop I have has "Made in Japan" written on it. Gen 1 through Gen 4.


----------



## NoNotAgain

WalkIntoTheLight said:


> I think he was joking. Every generation of Eneloop I have has "Made in Japan" written on it. Gen 1 through Gen 4.



I don't think he was joking. 

This thread was started because Panasonic has started selling Eneloop branded cells made in China. 

Unless you're purchasing local where you can inspect the cells, you may or may not get Japanese manufactured cells. 

My local Walmart doesn't stick Eneloops, but I can order them thru the store from one of their suppliers. Until they get them in, there's no way to know what your going to receive. 

There are no stores local to me that stocks and sells Eneloops. I can drive an hour away, but with the interweb, why?

I get most of my Eneloops from Illumn when on sale.


----------



## WalkIntoTheLight

NoNotAgain said:


> I don't think he was joking.
> 
> This thread was started because Panasonic has started selling Eneloop branded cells made in China.
> 
> Unless you're purchasing local where you can inspect the cells, you may or may not get Japanese manufactured cells.
> 
> My local Walmart doesn't stick Eneloops, but I can order them thru the store from one of their suppliers. Until they get them in, there's no way to know what your going to receive.




Yes, but he said:



ChibiM said:


> Seriously though.. it should be written on the battery.



Which is exactly what Eneloops have always had written on them. I dunno... I figured he must have been joking around.

I agree that ordering on-line appears to be hit & miss now, without being able to see the battery label. Luckily, Costco is still selling the Japanese ones (on-line).


----------



## kreisl

Can someone post photos of white 4th gen Eneloops Made In Japan vs. white 4th gen Eneloops Made In China?

Some photo material would be very helpful in this thread and discussion


----------



## DIΩDΣ

Kestrel said:


> However, depending on which company is actually fulfilling the Amazon order, returns could range from easy to very challenging - I have been very unimpressed with the business practices of some.



The amazon branded ones have only ever been sold by amazon itself as far as I am aware. Return should be amazon only, and if the product is not as described then it should be a simple click of a few buttons, print out free return shipping label, and drop it off. Unless I'm missing something. 


Has anyone ever tested the Amazon Basics High Capacity Black AAA's? Seems all the tests and graphs and everything I can find compare AA only. Tried searching the reviews for AAA and can't really find much anything useful. I need some AAA's as well but I'm not sure if the difference between the whites and blacks in the AAA is worth the extra few bucks or not (referring to the ones indicating made in Japan only).


----------



## MidnightDistortions

DIΩDΣ;4560088 said:


> The amazon branded ones have only ever been sold by amazon itself as far as I am aware. Return should be amazon only, and if the product is not as described then it should be a simple click of a few buttons, print out free return shipping label, and drop it off. Unless I'm missing something.
> 
> 
> Has anyone ever tested the Amazon Basics High Capacity Black AAA's? Seems all the tests and graphs and everything I can find compare AA only. Tried searching the reviews for AAA and can't really find much anything useful. I need some AAA's as well but I'm not sure if the difference between the whites and blacks in the AAA is worth the extra few bucks or not (referring to the ones indicating made in Japan only).



There's some tests here but i think the Duracell AAA's are not rebrand Eneloops unless i misread something lol. I have not tested the AAA Eneloop Pros but if they are anything like the AA's they will perform as well if not better than the rated capacities. If you are looking for the extra edge, they would be worth the extra, i usually will keep high capacity cells for emergency usage but if you are looking for longevity and to get the most out of your cells, the standard Eneloops will do fine .


----------



## kreisl

kreisl said:


> Can someone post photos of white 4th gen Eneloops Made In Japan vs. white 4th gen Eneloops Made In China?
> 
> Some photo material would be very helpful in this thread and discussion



this week i got white 4th gen Eneloops bulk warez (manuf. April 2014) from a national reseller, front says "eneloop(TM)", back says "Panasonic BK-4MCCE", "EU", and "Made in Japan".

anyone there to share HD photos of white Eneloop cells which are labeled "Made in the China" or "Made in PRC" on the back please? oo:


----------



## funkychateau

*


What's Up With Eneloops?*

While shopping at Costco, I noticed that the Eneloop battery kits were now branded Panasonic (vs Sanyo). Did Panasonic buy the rights to the product? Has there been a performance or quality shift with the transfer?


----------



## AnAppleSnail

*Default Re: Japanese Vs Chinese Eneloop Cycle Testing Results*

They bought it, and a quick googleing turns these up: Goggle Search or Specific Article, and Specific information that all quality NiMHs come from about the same production lines.


----------



## AB8XL

*Default Re: Japanese Vs Chinese Eneloop Cycle Testing Results*

http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb...nese-Vs-Chinese-Eneloop-Cycle-Testing-Results

Thread Merge - Norm


----------



## magellan

Great work PMU. 

You said:

<<It's speculated that when Panasonic purchased Sanyo, they only acquired the Eneloop brand and the Japanese factory that produces Eneloops was sold off to a third party to ensure that there weren't any anti-trust issues that would otherwise block the purchase due to Panasonic potentially controlling an excessive proportion of the worldwide battery production capacity. There are still Eneloops being produced in Japan for some markets, but other markets are being sold Chinese made Eneloops instead. For customers in those markets, it seems that Eneloops are now only Eneloops in name.>>

Crikey. It's enough to turn one socialist. 

But Japanese anti trust laws are less draconian than in the U.S. from what I've heard. Since just like the U.S. Japan can't compete against China anymore either, if I were the Japanese authorities I wouldn't give a rat's patootie about enforcing them if it would save jobs.


----------



## ChibiM

China themselves also still get Japanese eneloops, as well as Made in China. So not all eneloops in China are made in China 
Just search some chinese shopping sites, and youll find a mix of both.

Sent from my KFTT using Tapatalk


----------



## magellan

Do do batteries ever not say where they're made?



Glofindel said:


> Lol thank you.


----------



## WalkIntoTheLight

magellan said:


> Do do batteries ever not say where they're made?



Eneloops have always stated where they are made, right on the battery itself. Many (most?) other batteries do not.

I just assume if something doesn't state where it's made, it's probably made in China or some other lost-cost jurisdiction.


----------



## Power Me Up

ChibiM asked me to post up a photo to compare the Japanese and Chinese made Eneloops:







Larger image:
http://www.ultrasmartcharger.com/images/Japanese Vs Chinese Eneloops1.jpg

The Japanese made Eneloops are on the left and the Chinese Eneloops are on the right. These are the actual cells that were used for this test. The date code on the Japanese cells looks like 13 0610 - maybe the 10th of June 2013? The Chinese Eneloops have a date code of 14 05 - should be May 2014.

There are a number of visual differences:

* Both the positive and negative terminals on the Chinese Eneloops are much smoother.
* 4 Vent holes are visible around the positive terminal on the Chinese Eneloops.
* The plastic disc around the positive terminal is grey on the Japanese Eneloops and white on the Chinese variety.
* The positive terminal on the Chinese version is slightly squarish.
* The finish of the wrapper on the Chinese Eneloops are a little more matte.
* The shoulder at the positive end is a bit more square on the Japanese Eneloops.
* The writing on the wrappers is significantly different, but that's more down to the Japanese made Eneloops being destined for the Japanese market versus the Australian market for the Chinese Eneloops.

Overall the cell design is quite different: if Panasonic sold off some of their stock for rebranding, I don't think that anyone would be inclined to consider them to be Eneloops (e.g. they wouldn't be called "Duraloops")


----------



## kreisl

Thanks for the photo!
Do you have another photo of the backside of these cells where it shows the Made In Land and the model number, please?


----------



## Viking

Power Me Up said:


> Overall the cell design is quite different: if Panasonic sold off some of their stock for rebranding, I don't think that anyone would be inclined to consider them to be Eneloops (e.g. they wouldn't be called "Duraloops")



Which is yet another indicator that this is not just another example of poor chinese workmanship or quality control. But by all accounts, these are two completely different cells.


Thanks for the photos.


----------



## Grijon

Thank you for the photo and writeup, Power Me Up!


----------



## MidnightDistortions

Power Me Up said:


> ChibiM asked me to post up a photo to compare the Japanese and Chinese made Eneloops:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Larger image:
> http://www.ultrasmartcharger.com/images/Japanese Vs Chinese Eneloops1.jpg
> 
> The Japanese made Eneloops are on the left and the Chinese Eneloops are on the right. These are the actual cells that were used for this test. The date code on the Japanese cells looks like 13 0610 - maybe the 10th of June 2013? The Chinese Eneloops have a date code of 14 05 - should be May 2014.
> 
> There are a number of visual differences:
> 
> * Both the positive and negative terminals on the Chinese Eneloops are much smoother.
> * 4 Vent holes are visible around the positive terminal on the Chinese Eneloops.
> * The plastic disc around the positive terminal is grey on the Japanese Eneloops and white on the Chinese variety.
> * The positive terminal on the Chinese version is slightly squarish.
> * The finish of the wrapper on the Chinese Eneloops are a little more matte.
> * The shoulder at the positive end is a bit more square on the Japanese Eneloops.
> * The writing on the wrappers is significantly different, but that's more down to the Japanese made Eneloops being destined for the Japanese market versus the Australian market for the Chinese Eneloops.
> 
> Overall the cell design is quite different: if Panasonic sold off some of their stock for rebranding, I don't think that anyone would be inclined to consider them to be Eneloops (e.g. they wouldn't be called "Duraloops")



I'm confused you said the Japanese Eneloops are on the left but my Japanese cells don't have the 'Panasonic' logo on them. Unless you meant the Japanese ones are on the right?


----------



## 5S8Zh5

MidnightDistortions said:


> I'm confused you said the Japanese Eneloops are on the left but my Japanese cells don't have the 'Panasonic' logo on them. Unless you meant the Japanese ones are on the right?



The Chinese ones are described with smoother positive and negative terminals (right), vent holes around positive terminal (right) and squarish positive terminal (right).



_


----------



## MidnightDistortions

5S8Zh5 said:


> The Chinese ones are described with smoother positive and negative terminals (right), vent holes around positive terminal (right) and squarish positive terminal (right).
> 
> 
> 
> _



Hmm.. is the left ones an older set of Eneloops then?


----------



## 5S8Zh5

MidnightDistortions said:


> Hmm.. is the left ones an older set of Eneloops then?



I have no idea.


----------



## Rosoku Chikara

MidnightDistortions said:


> Hmm.. is the left ones an older set of Eneloops then?



Actually, all the newer Eneloops in Japan are now branded with the large Panasonic logo and small Eneloop logo. These new Chinese "Eneloops" are designed to look like older Japanese Eneloops.


----------



## NoNotAgain

My last three Eneloop buys have been kits of 4 AAA cells, 10 AA cells and a BQ-CC17 charger. 
All of my cells are dark and light blue. 
I've got no DOM listed anywhere. 
All of the cells are marked "Made in Japan". Charger is Chinese. 
These are 4th generation 2100 cycle batteries.


----------



## Power Me Up

MidnightDistortions said:


> I'm confused you said the Japanese Eneloops are on the left but my Japanese cells don't have the 'Panasonic' logo on them. Unless you meant the Japanese ones are on the right?



As already mentioned by others, the Japanese are definitely on the left.

As Rosoku says, branding is different in different regions. 

Wrapper designs can also change over time - the date code on the Japanese cells looks like it's from June 2013, but I've got a 12 pack of Japanese made Eneloops from ChibiM and the wrappers look the same even though they were manufactured in October 2014.

Model number shown on the Japanese Eneloop is BK-3MCC. The Chinese version has BK-3MCCE.

The Chinese version says "Made in China" The Japanese version doesn't list the country of manufacture in English - most of the writing is in Japanese, so no doubt it lists the country of manufacture in that language.


----------



## 5S8Zh5

Power Me Up said:


> ...The Chinese version says "Made in China" The Japanese version doesn't list the country of manufacture in English - most of the writing is in Japanese, so no doubt it lists the country of manufacture in that language.


made in japan .....- ..... *日本で行われた*



_


----------



## Albinoni1967

Chinese Eneloops never ever seen one or heard of them, all the Eneloops I have seen have been Made in Japan.


----------



## Turak

Many of the 'knockoff' Eneloops (aka Chinese Eneloops) sure seem to look and behave ALOT like..... Ray-O-Vacs.

Ends look similar. Run times are similar. Amount of cycles that they actually last are similar.

I still have 26 of the original Eneloops HR-3UTG (Made in Japan- says right on battery wrapper) plastic embossed date code 06-10SK.

20 of them are still in the 90-95% capacity range.
4 of them are in the 75-80% capacity range.
2 were retired due to loss of capacity (below 70%).

The Chinese versions are 'junk' when compared to their Japanese counterparts. They last half the amount of cycles (if you are lucky), and they lose capacity MUCH more rapidly. They also seem to lose their LSD characteristics over time.


----------



## MidnightDistortions

Rosoku Chikara said:


> Actually, all the newer Eneloops in Japan are now branded with the large Panasonic logo and small Eneloop logo. These new Chinese "Eneloops" are designed to look like older Japanese Eneloops.





Power Me Up said:


> As already mentioned by others, the Japanese are definitely on the left.
> 
> As Rosoku says, branding is different in different regions.
> 
> Wrapper designs can also change over time - the date code on the Japanese cells looks like it's from June 2013, but I've got a 12 pack of Japanese made Eneloops from ChibiM and the wrappers look the same even though they were manufactured in October 2014.
> 
> Model number shown on the Japanese Eneloop is BK-3MCC. The Chinese version has BK-3MCCE.
> 
> The Chinese version says "Made in China" The Japanese version doesn't list the country of manufacture in English - most of the writing is in Japanese, so no doubt it lists the country of manufacture in that language.



Ok, i think that makes sense. All my Eneloops are from 2014 and are Japan cells. I found that it was a little odd how the wrapper was different. I got my Eneloops from Amazon.com, i recently ordered a couple of chargers one for a friend and another for show and tell, they were shipped from North Las Vegas, Nevada. I wonder if they got older labels or something and they use them instead of the newer ones. Anyway it doesn't matter, long as they are quality batteries .


----------



## Rosoku Chikara

5S8Zh5 said:


> made in japan .....- ..... *日本で行われた*



 Please kindly take this in the spirit that it is offered... I mean no insult of any kind. I simply decided to set the record straight for the sake of those who might be looking at their Eneloops for those Japanese characters.

*Made in Japan = 日本製*

Just in case you are a student of Japanese, please allow me to explain. (Now here is where it gets a bit complicated. WARNING: An "off-topic" discussion of the Japanese language follows!)

As a sentence "日本で行われた" is not incorrect, in and of itself. It is simply not the way that "made" (in the sense of a product coming from a particular place) would be written. The Kanji (ideogram) "行" is used to represent a broad concept that includes meanings such as "go/come/visit/attend/do/carry out/practice/perform" etc.

Another, and slightly better, way to write (or say) the sentence would be "日本で作られた" where the Kanji "作" is used for the concept of "make/manufacture/produce/cook/prepare/raise/cultivate" etc.

But, "製" is correct. "製" also means "make/manufacture/produce," but largely by convention, it is the way you always write "made in" when you mean "This product is made in Japan."

For those who are still reading this, and therefore presumably somewhat interested, one of the issues here is that the first two sentences are just that: a spoken sentence put down in writing. But, in many ways, Japanese can be thought of as two separate languages: a spoken language and a written language. Each of the two sentences above contain only 3 Kanji "日本" and "行" or "作" which tend to be more complex looking characters. The rest of the sentence consists of relatively simple written characters such as "で" and "われた" or "られた". These are examples of the syllabary characters often used to link the often more complex looking Kanji in writing. (There are 46 syllabary characters, one for each sound in the Japanese language. There is also another set of the same 46 syllabary that are also in daily usage. These are shaped even more simply, and are usually used to "spell out" foreign words. The word "Ice Cream" could be written as "あいすくりいむ” but it is always written "アイスクリーム" since it is a foreign word. あ=ア, い=イ, す=ス, etc.) 

Anything that can be said in Japanese can be easily written entirely in either one of their two syllabaries, and the result would be perfectly intelligible/readable. However, only an uneducated child would write this way. Generally speaking, the better one's education, the more Kanji you will know, and therefore tend to use in your writing. Sentences written in Kanji are shorter and far faster for the educated to read, but such sentences are also far less ambiguous. The Japanese spoken language contains many words that sound virtually identical and would be written identically using syllabary characters. For example, the Japanese spoken word "kami" would be written "かみ" but, if you used those syllabary characters, you would only know whether or not the writer were referring to "hair" (髪) or "paper" (紙) or "god" (神) based on context. You would not know for certain, unless the writer used the appropriate Kanji.

In many ways, the Japanese written language is far more complex than Chinese because Chinese does not use any of the above syllabary characters. This whole complex morass stems from the fact that the Japanese had their own spoken language known as Yamato-go which is completely unrelated to Chinese, and then later on they attempted to "force fit" the Chinese ideograms into their existing language, since they had no written language of their own.

The origin of Chinese ideograms can be quite interesting. (They have been modified to varying extent in Japanese, but they are often still very similar.)

For example: The "日" ideogram was written long ago as a circle with a dot in the center, and it means "sun." (It evolved into a circle with a line like Theta θ and then apparently a circle was too difficult to write with a brush, so it turned into a rectangle with a line.)

This is the ideogram for a tree: 木 (If you use your imagination a bit, you can see how it resembles a tree trunk with down-sloping branches and branches at the top.)

What is fun is that two trees written very close together as one ideogram means a thicket or underbrush: 林 And, of course, the ideogram of three trees means a forest: 森 (There is also a Japanese child's written joke where four trees means "jungle" but no such ideogram actually exists.)

Anyway, if we take our tree "木" and add another line at the bottom, it now has "roots": 本 - And, the concept of "root" has come to mean "source". So, since the Japanese islands were located across the water to the east, where the sun comes from, the Chinese called Japan the "Land of the Rising Sun" which was written as "日本" or "sun source" (source of the sun). 

Thanks for listening.


----------



## Bullzeyebill

Rosoku Chikara said:


> Please kindly take this in the spirit that it is offered... I mean no insult of any kind. I simply decided to set the record straight for the sake of those who might be looking at their Eneloops for those Japanese characters.
> 
> *Made in Japan = 日本製 *



No insult taken. Thank you for the explanation.

Bill


----------



## ChibiM

Well Rosoku, 
you definitely took that to a whole different stage  

Thanks PowerMeUp for the shots! and as Kreisler asked, I too would be interested in some side shots


----------



## 5S8Zh5

Rosoku Chikara said:


> Please kindly take this in the spirit that it is offered... I mean no insult of any kind. I simply decided to set the record straight for the sake of those who might be looking at their Eneloops for those Japanese characters.
> 
> *Made in Japan = 日本製*


lol sure beats google translate. ..






I can recognize *日本* - Japan in Kanji, among a few others. Of course コーヒー on the coffee cans in the vending machine.


----------



## Grijon

Rosoku Chikara said:


> <Japanese lesson>



I do say it again: Rosoku Chikara, you ROCK!


----------



## RoGuE_StreaK

That last bit was particularly enlightening, one of those moments when, snap, it all comes together and "A-HA"!


----------



## kreisl

ChibiM said:


> I too would be interested in some side shots



+ 2

I added side shots of my questionable Eneloops too 
I spoke with the Eneloop Europe division. Currently in Europe only Made In Japan Eneloops are being sold. But they couldn't say anything about the future of Eneloop manufacturing and sales. Only the Japan HQ would know about such things etc.


----------



## DIΩDΣ

FWIW, I purchased both normal (white) and high cap (black) versions of Amazon basics AA and AAA LSD and all 4 versions are made in Japan. Break in on the Maha C9000 looks good with all cells slightly higher than rated so far.


----------



## RoGuE_StreaK

Slightly off topic, but I just searched **** Smith's store to see if anything was on special and noticed they have THREE different listings of the 8x Tropical AAs, all seemingly exactly the same specs, all saying made in Japan, and bizarrely one of them listed as $10 cheaper than the other two :shrug:

$50:
http://www.****smith.com.au/batteries/eneloop-aa-tropical-8pk-web-dsau-s4492

$50, "online only":
http://www.****smith.com.au/batteri...h-battery-tropical-8pk-online-only-dsau-s4478

$40:
http://www.****smith.com.au/camera-...argeable-nimh-battery-tropical-8pk-dsau-s4475

[EDIT] Actually that first link DOESN'T say made in Japan in the listing, and has a different model number; "BK-3MCCE/8PT" vs "HR-3UTGB8TPT" on the other two. Could these be Chinese? Same package photo used, but doesn't use the "Sanyo" label in the details


----------



## JerryM

At 5 - 6+ bucks each not me.
Jerry


----------



## Mr Floppy

JerryM said:


> At 5 - 6+ bucks each not me.



No but these often go on special for $20 a pack including delivery.


----------



## Power Me Up

RoGuE_StreaK said:


> Slightly off topic, but I just searched **** Smith's store to see if anything was on special and noticed they have THREE different listings of the 8x Tropical AAs, all seemingly exactly the same specs, all saying made in Japan,



Despite the pictures and the text, AFAIK, DSE only has Chinese made Eneloops now (unless you can find old stock in one of their stores) and you'll get the same regardless of which of those specific packs you order.


----------



## DevilyWan88

just want to share with u guys, bought these at my local store (Malaysia).


----------



## Power Me Up

I've created a new thread with the results from a similar test on a pair of AAA Eneloops:
http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb...-Vs-Chinese-Eneloop-AAA-Cycle-Testing-Results


----------



## TacoPowder

I got the same Panasonic's BK3MCCE and BK4MCCE as you DevilyWan88 but mine is made in Japan.

Bought them from Tme Electronics, link for AA and link for AAA - sadly they did not come in Panasonic wrapper but in these boxes.


----------



## NikonF5

The only reason I can think of for Panasonic to start production in China is to lower their production costs and thats a move that only makes sense if they eventually plan to move all production to China.

Just to be clear, yes, if this scenario comes to pass, since its not owned by Panasonic, the Japanese plant [FDK] will STILL be operational making equivalent Ni-Mh LSD batteries for Fujitsu, etc; they just wont be making Eneloops.

For those that still have local access to Japanese Eneloops and want to stock up, I would start now.
For those that dont have local access to Japanese Eneloops and want to stock up, you can always go through ChibiM on this thread and order them direct from Japan.

I dont have any insider information or access to it, just making the only logical inference based on a business move that Panasonic has already made and what common sense dictates a move like that was probably based on.

I am in Canada and already have 32 AA's and 36 AAA's on order and have already received my AAA's as of the date of this post.

Just to be clear, although this is my sole logical inference based on the evidence so far, it IS still only my opinion so pls refrain from chewing my head off on this :tinfoil:


----------



## ksquared

NikonF5 said:


> For those that still have local access to Japanese Eneloops and want to stock up, I would start now.



What I'm wondering is has anybody compared "Made In Japan" and Purchased In Japan Eneloops to "Made In Japan" and purchased outside of Japan? Is it remotely possible that different countries get different Eneloops even from "Made In Japan"?

Thanks to *Power Me Up* for all the effort put into researching the differences of the Eneloop batteries.


----------



## James Bond

These were purchased by me last week here in New Zealand from an authorised Eneloop/Panasonic dealer (The AAA's seem to have Singapore packaging while the AA's have AU/NZ packaging.)

https://www.dropbox.com/s/hhq72ew5pfn52eo/DSCN0985.JPG?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/7frn62sogvyb7ax/DSCN0986.JPG?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/2zcc2phumi3dyw6/DSCN0983.JPG?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/6r05iwbq1q3z6uk/DSCN0984.JPG?dl=0


----------



## ChibiM

James Bond said:


> These were purchased by me last week here in New Zealand from an authorised Eneloop/Panasonic dealer (The AAA's seem to have Singapore packaging while the AA's have AU/NZ packaging.)
> 
> https://www.dropbox.com/s/hhq72ew5pfn52eo/DSCN0985.JPG?dl=0
> 
> https://www.dropbox.com/s/7frn62sogvyb7ax/DSCN0986.JPG?dl=0
> 
> https://www.dropbox.com/s/2zcc2phumi3dyw6/DSCN0983.JPG?dl=0
> 
> https://www.dropbox.com/s/6r05iwbq1q3z6uk/DSCN0984.JPG?dl=0



3rd generation cells!


----------



## gallon

ChibiM said:


> 3rd generation cells!



The AAA's appear to be Japanese 3rd gen eneloops.
The AA's appear to be genuine Chinese 4th gen eneloops.


----------



## ChibiM

Correct, I just opened the first 2 pics...


----------



## gcronau

Power Me Up said:


> The date code on the Japanese cells looks like 13 0610 - maybe the 10th of June 2013?



On every eneloop I've owned, and that's about 240 of them, the made-in-japan date code is of the form:
Y Y -MMXX

Or:
{digit}<space>{digit}<space><dash>{digit}{digit}{UC-letter}{UC-letter}
(There is no space between the dash and the 3rd digit.)

The "Y Y" is the last 2 digits of the year, and the "MM" is the month. I've never found a good explanation of the 2 letters following the month. Could be day of the month, could be a lot code, could be a code for the specific manufacturing line that produced the cell.

In your example, yes, the 13 06 means June of 2013. However, I suspect the last 2 characters are IO(Eye Oh) as opposed to 10(one zero).


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## gcronau

NoNotAgain said:


> My last three Eneloop buys have been kits of 4 AAA cells, 10 AA cells and a BQ-CC17 charger.
> All of my cells are dark and light blue.
> I've got no DOM listed anywhere.



By "DOM" do you mean "Date of Manufacture"?

If so, the date isn't printed on the battery, it's stamped or pressed into the label, so it's hard to see. You need to use a light source at an angle and/or a magnifier, or better, a jeweler's loupe. It's just above the label's seam on all eneloops made in Japan. Just under the words "SANYO Electric Co., Ltd." on Gen3's.


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## mojo-chan

No response from Panasonic yet?

This is indeed very disappointing. I wonder if their numbers are based on much gentler charging, at least periodically. Their datasheets mention doing a slow 16 hour charge before measuring capacity, rather than a 1C charge. In any case, it sucks. I just hope that they keep selling the made in Japan cells in some markets. I've seen this sort of thing before, they produce cheaper versions for markets where they think most people don't really care and will accept the inferior versions. Not enough battery enthusiasts in Australia?


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## Power Me Up

mojo-chan said:


> No response from Panasonic yet?



No - but to be fair, I haven't followed up with them either...



> This is indeed very disappointing. I wonder if their numbers are based on much gentler charging, at least periodically. Their datasheets mention doing a slow 16 hour charge before measuring capacity, rather than a 1C charge. In any case, it sucks. I just hope that they keep selling the made in Japan cells in some markets. I've seen this sort of thing before, they produce cheaper versions for markets where they think most people don't really care and will accept the inferior versions. Not enough battery enthusiasts in Australia?



The cycle life ratings are based on a different testing method which is indeed done at lower charging and discharging rates.

Unfortunately, the number of battery enthusiasts probably isn't of great concern to them. They presumably think that Australians prefer cheaper prices ahead of quality products and I suspect that they're probably right for the majority unfortunately...


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## C8793

the test is over an year old. Is it still valid?

Probably the manufacturing process had improved (it looks like even AAA chinese-made outperforms the FDK-japonese made eneloops)

I've been reading across several threads and it looks like chinese-made versions are rated at 65%, but in their newest panasonic eneloop product page they rate it at 70% :thinking:


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## Power Me Up

It's quite possible that they've improved the manufacturing in China, but as far as I'm aware, they haven't announced a new generation with better performance, so I'd say that it's probably safer to assume that they haven't...

Although the graphic on that page says 70%, the text below says 65% to 70% In some markets, they're still selling the Japanese made Eneloops, so I'd assume that the 70% is referring to them rather than to the Chinese made Eneloops.


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## MidnightDistortions

C8793 said:


> the test is over an year old. Is it still valid?
> 
> Probably the manufacturing process had improved (it looks like even AAA chinese-made outperforms the FDK-japonese made eneloops)
> 
> I've been reading across several threads and it looks like chinese-made versions are rated at 65%, but in their newest panasonic eneloop product page they rate it at 70% :thinking:



It's a regional thing, i'm sure if there's a Chinese Panasonic website, Eneloops would be rated at 65%. I'm just glad USA is selling the Japanese ones.


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## Rosoku Chikara

mojo-chan said:


> No response from Panasonic yet?
> 
> This is indeed very disappointing. I wonder if their numbers are based on much gentler charging, at least periodically. Their datasheets mention doing a slow 16 hour charge before measuring capacity, rather than a 1C charge. In any case, it sucks. I just hope that they keep selling the made in Japan cells in some markets. I've seen this sort of thing before, they produce cheaper versions for markets where they think most people don't really care and will accept the inferior versions. Not enough battery enthusiasts in Australia?



I decided to look into this matter a little while ago. Here is what I learned:

1) While I am no expert at searching the Japanese language internet, I could find no pertinent information using search phrases in Japanese such as "Panasonic Eneloop" "Made in China," etc. My conclusion is that if serious Japanese Eneloop users are aware of the Chinese made cells, they are not "buzzing about it." (Not, yet?)

2) My contact at FDK (Well placed, so he understands my questions, and knows the answers. But, I have never actually met him.) while open enough on many subjects, remains extremely closed mouthed about anything do do with Panasonic, or even any of their "other" OEM products such as Amazon Basics(?). He will neither confirm nor deny. He simply refuses to discuss any cells other than those of the Fujitsu brand. He would not even confirm that they remain the only NiMH consumer battery plant in Japan (which was once stated on their website).

On the other hand, I know he is interested in any new developments regarding Chinese Eneloops. (I can simply tell that by his manner over the telephone.) So, I suspect that if I were to ever go to the trouble to go meet him in person, I could probably "read between the lines" and confirm some of the speculation on the forum. I think the problem is not so much that all OEM brands want to hide where their cells come from... in the case of a brand like Eneloops where you might want to say "Same as Eneloops, only cheaper." But, that would make Panasonic very angry. If you said "Same as Fujitsu, only cheaper," that would make his own "Fujitsu brand" battery people very unhappy.

So, he really just cannot talk about it, at all.

3) I tried contacting Panasonic directly. Took me a bit to get past all the underlings and speak to someone who even really understood what I was saying. I couched my question as a member of a "large club" who have very demanding NiMH needs (and are huge fans of the Eneloop cells), and that while "most consumers" would find the "Made in China" cells were perfectly fine, we have special needs that make us prefer the "Made in Japan" cells. 

Unfortunately, Panasonic is such a large organization that even the person I spoke to probably does not know Panasonic's long term strategy.

The first statement that I got was that the "Made in China" cells were only being sold into the "South East Asian Markets" and that Eneloops sold in Japan would always be "Made in Japan." South East Asia has a strong "pejoratic" connotation in Japan, so it was like saying "It really doesn't matter, since those cells are only going to South East Asia." When I pointed out that New Zealand and Australia were certainly not "South East Asia" we were left in an awkward silence and they eventually made the statement that "Panasonic has no existing plans to switch the source of Eneloops sold into the Japanese from Japan to China." And, I think this is indeed most probably true. But, I also think that only time will tell.

Don't know how much this helps, but it is the latest information that I have on this subject.


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## Grijon

I've said it before and I'll say it again (and he can tell me if he's tired of hearing it):

Rosoku Chikara is the man.


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## stephenk

It's been a few months since the last post in this thread, and it seems that most Australian retailers now only have the Chinese made (65% after 5 years) Eneloops in stock, and still at high prices. 

Has anyone been able to perform some more recent tests on the Chinese Eneloops now that more than half a year has passed since they were introduced?

Has anyone had any further feedback from Panasonic on why the Aussies and Kiwis have a different Eneloop product to other developed countries?
(I'm currently awaiting response from Panasonic from my own enquiry). 

Thanks in advance for any answers.


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## Kouryu

My best guesses are:
-Poor AUD and NZD exchange rate with JPY, hurting profit margins
-Oceania's Eneloop sales distribution is handled by Panasonic Singapore, they control the entire SE and South Asia distribution also, and dictate marketing and product lines
-Since those Asian countries have also switched to Chinese Eneloops, for likely a more favorable exchange rate to the respective local currencies for many of those countries, it didn't make sense to continue Japanese imports

Meanwhile, USD and CAD are much stronger and command a favorable exchange rate with JPY, making it possible to maintain/improve profit margins... I would imagine it be the same for the Euro and GBP


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## Mr Floppy

stephenk said:


> and it seems that most Australian retailers now only have the Chinese made (65% after 5 years) Eneloops in stock, and still at high prices.



The chocolate tones are under 15 dollars if you wait for the sales. I'm refusing to buy them and trying to discourage others but it seems futile.


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## kreisl

stephenk said:


> Has anyone been able to perform some more recent tests on the Chinese Eneloops now that more than half a year has passed since they were introduced?



+1 seconded.

The 2000 cycles claim should be retested every half year on both the Japanese and the Chinese Eneloop. Old test results are simply that, old. One will never know if they still hold true after all that time.


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## stephenk

I received a call from Panasonic Australian Customer Service today. They said Australia would be getting 70% capacity after 5 year Eneloops soon, but said country of origin is irrelevant. So reading into that is that either the quality of the Chinese "Eneloops" may be improving, or the claims on the packaging may be being "upgraded". Unfortunately I was busy at work and unable to ask more questions.


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## Power Me Up

I did run a new test on some Chinese made Eneloops that were manufactured more recently than those in my original test - with pretty much exactly the same results. I don't really feel like running yet another test on the Chinese Eneloops at the moment, but if they bring out a new version which different specs, I'll be happy to run another test again.


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## WalkIntoTheLight

stephenk said:


> I received a call from Panasonic Australian Customer Service today. They said Australia would be getting 70% capacity after 5 year Eneloops soon, but said country of origin is irrelevant. So reading into that is that either the quality of the Chinese "Eneloops" may be improving, or the claims on the packaging may be being "upgraded". Unfortunately I was busy at work and unable to ask more questions.



It's obvious from these results that country of origin _does _make a difference. So, I would disregard anything that customer service tells you.


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## magellan

Thanks for all the work trying to get to the bottom of this.

This is really too bad. It seems the Chinese are even better at sacrificing quality while boosting profits than American management. Well, they probably learned it from us. They're not dumb.

Bottom line is, with no real competition to China, they have no real incentive to maintain the original quality. 

As someone once said, welcome to the future, you're gonna luv it! ;-(


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## WalkIntoTheLight

magellan said:


> This is really too bad. It seems the Chinese are even better at sacrificing quality while boosting profits than American management. Well, they probably learned it from us. They're not dumb.



I doubt American-made NiMH cells would be any better than Chinese ones. Regardless, this is not the fault of the Chinese; it is the fault of Panasonic, a Japanese company. Panasonic has chosen to go with inferior cells, because it knows the public doesn't care. By the time the Chinese cells start failing in a few years, the consumer will have no idea nor care that Japanese cells would have lasted much longer. It's all about maximizing short-term profit, with probably little downside in the long-term. They're milking the Eneloop brand while they can.

There *is *competition to China. You can buy Japanese Eneloops instead. That's what I'll do. Unfortunately, the other 99% doesn't know the difference, and probably doesn't care. They'll buy whatever is available in their local store, or on Amazon.

This is how the market should work. Unfortunately, as is often the case, it will lead to lower quality.


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## kreisl

i am going to make sure mark that the mc3k manual will have a reference to your thread hehe 
lovecpf


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## magellan

WalkIntoTheLight said:


> I doubt American-made NiMH cells would be any better than Chinese ones. Regardless, this is not the fault of the Chinese; it is the fault of Panasonic, a Japanese company. Panasonic has chosen to go with inferior cells, because it knows the public doesn't care. By the time the Chinese cells start failing in a few years, the consumer will have no idea nor care that Japanese cells would have lasted much longer. It's all about maximizing short-term profit, with probably little downside in the long-term. They're milking the Eneloop brand while they can.
> 
> There *is *competition to China. You can buy nJapanese Eneloops instead. That's what I'll do. Unfortunately, the other 99% doesn't know the difference, and probably doesn't care. They'll buy whatever is available in their local store, or on Amazon.
> 
> This is how the market should work. Unfortunately, as is often the case, it will lead to lower quality.



I had the perhaps incorrect impression that with production moving to China the Japanese versions would be phased out? If not there's some reason for optimism.

As for American made ones, well, I probably would agree; we can make mediocre products as well as anybody, but at least it would provide jobs.

And as for this being how markets should work, well, I can't disagree there. At least it is how they seem to work. In fact what the market wants is increasingly clueless people who are willing to spend more and more money on more and more inferior merchandise. So the manufacturers continue to cheapen the product, to the point where customers get so frustrated that they begin to have heart attacks and stroke out from sheer frustration. 

After weeding out the weaker consumers, the following generations are tougher and more resilient. This process continues until you have very clueless, very stupid but extremely tough, tolerant, resilient sheep who are willing to pay high prices for garbage. Voila! The ultimate capitalist economy!  Social Darwinism at its finest! LOL

Well, obviously I'm engaging in a bit of macroeconomic satire here but sometimes I wonder.

Come to think if it, we might already be well on our way!


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## magellan

So does anybody know a reliable source to get the Japanese Eneloops?


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## stephenk

WalkIntoTheLight said:


> It's obvious from these results that country of origin _does _make a difference. So, I would disregard anything that customer service tells you.


Oh, don't worry, I took that comment from customer service with a pinch of salt. If the Chinese Eneloops had the quality of the Japanese Eneloops then country of origin wouldn't be an issue, but unfortunately they appear to be an inferior product. 



Power Me Up said:


> I did run a new test on some Chinese made Eneloops that were manufactured more recently than those in my original test - with pretty much exactly the same results. I don't really feel like running yet another test on the Chinese Eneloops at the moment, but if they bring out a new version which different specs, I'll be happy to run another test again.


Your testing is much appreciated. Did you publish a discharge comparison for the AAAs?


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## WalkIntoTheLight

magellan said:


> So does anybody know a reliable source to get the Japanese Eneloops?



Costco. US or Canada.


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## Power Me Up

stephenk said:


> Your testing is much appreciated. Did you publish a discharge comparison for the AAAs?



Yes, you can find the results for the AAA cells here:
http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb...-Vs-Chinese-Eneloop-AAA-Cycle-Testing-Results


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## magellan

WalkIntoTheLight said:


> Costco. US or Canada.



Thanks!


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## Rick NJ

After reading this entire thread post by post, I was an Eneloop fan but no more.

That said, the point of my post is: it is *wrong to say "Chinese made Eneloops" vs "Japan made Eneloops."* At the start of the thread, much was unknown. As the thread progress, thanks to the research of fellow forum posters, we have more info. We now know we really are having a discussion of *"FDK Eneloops" vs "Non FDK Eneloops"*.

1. It is clear from various posts that FDK owns the technology. Sanyo, and now Panasonic owns the Eneloop name.

2. FDK has the technology and Sanyo/Panasonic doesn't.

3. Panasonic can spec the Eneloop whatever they want, whether it is made in China or Japan or Congo, it still wont be the techonology of the FDK-Eneloops. So, it wont be like the _"real"_ Eneloops.

4. FDK has the technology. Unless bounded by legal agreement, they can make the FDK-Eneloop and it would be like the _"real"_ Eneloop. Except bounded by legal agreement, such "FDK-Eneloops" can be branded "Great Wall Battery" or "Forbidden City Cells" and it would work as well as the "original" Eneloops. It could even be made in China with FDK technology and it could be like _"real"_ Eneloops.

So, the distinction between the *then-Eneloops* and the *now-Eneloops* is not really "where it was made" but instead it is "from whom it was sourced": From FDK with the FDK technology, or a Panasonic-cell from some (other) manufacturer with some other technology. So, this evolved into an *"FDK Eneloop" vs "Non-FDK Eneloops" *discussion.

I have enough FDK-Eneloops and won't be shopping for a while yet. When I do, it certainly wont be Panasonic Eneloops. I won't know if they are real FDK Eneloops or not.


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## Kurt_Woloch

Well, I'm usually talking about NiMh cells made in Japan and NiMh cells made in China since FDK claims they're the only plant making LSD NiMh cells in Japan.

Here in Austria, I haven't seen any Chinese made Eneloops yet, though the store I bought the last 8-pack from (Media Markt) seems to have run out on a few sizes of regular Eneloops and have raised the price on some of the others. Last time I checked, they only had the 2-packs, the 8-packs where each cell has a different color, and the 4-pack bundled with a charger (which has raised in price). I hope they get more, and they are still made in Japan.

If the Australians now get cells achieving 70% after 5 years, that's not good enough! Other markets get 70% after 10 years now. ;-)

The question is how good those Chinese cells really are in keeping the charge, which would be important for low-drain cells such as wall clocks. I know of other brands of LSD cells really only achieving 75% after a year, and who knows how much they still would have after 3, 5 or 10 years (they don't tell). If the Chinese Eneloops don't hold up to the cycle life claims, they might not hold up to the self-discharge claims as well.

Well... FDK does make the "FDK-Eneloops"... they are called Fujitsu Ready To Use Rechargeable (not really a snappy name however). As far as I know they are the exact same cells as Japanese Eneloops except for the wrapper... and they will always come from Japan since Fujitsu owns the FDK factory. They're just a pretty unknown brand for batteries, although their zinc-carbon cells seem to come with many remotes bundled with devices.

In the end, it's all a calculation which battery fits your need best. If the "Chinesification" of Eneloops goes on, and it gets hard to find real FDK product, it might get (or remain) cost-effective to use alkalines in some of the low-drain devices instead, as much as I'd hate to do that.

Another question would be what happens to the LSD properties of old (aged or heavily cycled) LSD batteries... do they now self discharge much quicker, or do they still retain their charge (or whatever is left of it) as well as they did when they were new?


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## Kouryu

magellan said:


> So does anybody know a reliable source to get the Japanese Eneloops?



Amazon, Costco, Best Buy, among some of the few

There's not any reason to worry about this at this time because Panasonic USA still does not import any Chinese made Eneloops!


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## magellan

Kouryu said:


> Amazon, Costco, Best Buy, among some of the few
> 
> There's not any reason to worry about this at this time because Panasonic USA still does not import any Chinese made Eneloops!



That's at least reassuring.


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## Madcow07

magellan said:


> So does anybody know a reliable source to get the Japanese Eneloops?



As of last week, most USA Costco stores in my area had a limited quantity of Eneloops with chargers at a very attractive price. These are pending delete, so get them fast. 10x AA, 4x AAA, CC17 charger. Batteries from Japan, charger from China. $22. USD.


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## Kouryu

Madcow07 said:


> As of last week, most USA Costco stores in my area had a limited quantity of Eneloops with chargers at a very attractive price. These are pending delete, so get them fast. 10x AA, 4x AAA, CC17 charger. Batteries from Japan, charger from China. $22. USD.



The limited quantities is due to the close out sale for the current packaging of Costco Eneloops... they are switching to the "up to 70% after 10 years" packaging... the cell #s are exactly the same though


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## Jash

Didn't want to start a new thread so I'll ask my question here. Are the Durcell LSD rechargeables made in Japan with the black top made by Panasonic? 

Eneloops here in Australia are all Chinese now, but I can get Japanese Durcells for less money than eneloops.


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## onthebeam

Jash said:


> Didn't want to start a new thread so I'll ask my question here. Are the Durcell LSD rechargeables made in Japan with the black top made by Panasonic?
> 
> Eneloops here in Australia are all Chinese now, but I can get Japanese Durcells for less money than eneloops.



Many believe they are made be FDK and have repeatedly tested to be near identical with Eneloop Pros. Other options to match standard Eneloops include the white label Fujitsus--same factory, too.

I bought the Duracells. Good stuff.


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## KeepingItLight

HJK recently reviewed the Duracell rechargeables that are sold in the EU. 

Not wanting to put words in his mouth, it is my interpretation that he gave them a thumbs-up.


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## Jash

Thanks guys. I'll pick up a 4 pack today and give them a go. The package says good for 500 charge cycles and 70% after 1 year in storage. Nowhere near the 1,800 cycles of the last Eneloops I bought, but still, charging them once a week takes them well beyond the five year life inferred to ni-mh cells.

Still might order a bulk lot of Japanese Eneloops from America before the year is out. Exchange rate is pretty steep at the moment. Used to work out to be cheaper, but not anymore. However I can't find any 4th gen, Japanese Eneloops in Australia, so...


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## G166H

null.


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## Behemot

I've been just noted about this situation. If you are indeed low on japanese accumulators in there Australia and even that what you have is expensive crap (which is as long as I checked couple months ago), I can supply ya. Just have ppl returning there in near weeks and months so if you'd be interested, lets start a thread and get something going on.

It's been also posted in that older thread.


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## longsi0008

Like to have some feedback:

One of my Made in Japan Eneloop leaked and Panasonic HQ was willing to do an exchange of the whole set of 8 batteries. After I collected it, I realised they exchanged it with a set of 8 Made in China Eneloop. Since the exchange was free, and I have used the former for about 20 cycles, should I be upset over it?

The former was produced in March 2015 (holds 70% after 10 years) while the newer was made in September 2015 (holds 70% after 5 years).


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## Liber8

Is there any word on why Fujitsu isn't making this bold 10 year claim? My guess is its due to some legal mumbo jumbo in their agreement with Panasonic or Fujitsu just hasn't been able to keep cells around for 10 years to test them.


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## xxo

longsi0008 said:


> Like to have some feedback:
> 
> One of my Made in Japan Eneloop leaked and Panasonic HQ was willing to do an exchange of the whole set of 8 batteries. After I collected it, I realised they exchanged it with a set of 8 Made in China Eneloop. Since the exchange was free, and I have used the former for about 20 cycles, should I be upset over it?
> 
> The former was produced in March 2015 (holds 70% after 10 years) while the newer was made in September 2015 (holds 70% after 5 years).



Personally, I would let them know that I would prefer the Japanese eneloops.....if they wanted to know why, I would send them a link to this thread.....but that's just me, most people probably don't care all that much.


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## stephenk

Thankfully IKEA have now saved Australians by selling their own version of the FDK Eneloop Pros.


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## CelticCross74

no competition for China? China is a paper tiger ....slave labor can only do so much


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## parametrek

Power Me Up, do you want to try to test the self-discharge rates for the Chinese vs Japanese cells?

You don't have to wait five years and then measure the cells. Panasonic certainly doesn't actually take five years to do their tests. Most chemical reactions and aging processes are accelerated with heat. The rule of thumb is twice the aging for every 10C hotter. NiMH self-discharge is also accelerated by heat but I don't know how close to the rule of thumb it is.

Anyway if you make a low temperature oven and bake the batteries in it for a few months, it should be equivalent to several years worth of aging. Panasonic and other manufactures probably have a building of PhDs to calibrate it exactly, but for a simple comparison that isn't required. As long as the two sets of cells are both in the oven at the same time, they'll experience the same heat profile.

And by oven I mean something like a DIY chick-rearing box, basically a very small heating element and a thermostat. According to the rule of thumb, 4.5 months in a 60C box should age the batteries by three years. It might actually be faster to do the aging test than the recharge cycles test


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## longsi0008

Hey guys, after switching to Chinese Made Eneloops, I felt my TK41 Turbo and EA81 Turbo are now dimmer. All along I thought they were driven by circuit. Am I just imagining things?


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## angerdan

Any news in 2017 for this topic?


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## dabotsonline

How do the eneloop PRO cells for the European market, manufactured in Belgium and Poland, compare to the Japanese and Chinese ones?

Please see pages 11 and 23 in the 'Catalogue 2017-2018':

http://main.panasonic-eneloop.eu/sites/default/files/Catalogue_eneloop_ENG_2017_DEF_LR.pdf


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## bmstrong

dabotsonline said:


> How do the eneloop PRO cells for the European market, manufactured in Belgium and Poland, compare to the Japanese and Chinese ones?
> 
> Please see pages 11 and 23 in the 'Catalogue 2017-2018':
> 
> http://main.panasonic-eneloop.eu/sites/default/files/Catalogue_eneloop_ENG_2017_DEF_LR.pdf



That was pretty neat. Thanks.


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## ChibiM

dabotsonline said:


> How do the eneloop PRO cells for the European market, manufactured in Belgium and Poland, compare to the Japanese and Chinese ones?
> 
> Please see pages 11 and 23 in the 'Catalogue 2017-2018':
> 
> http://main.panasonic-eneloop.eu/sites/default/files/Catalogue_eneloop_ENG_2017_DEF_LR.pdf


Manufactured in Belgium and Poland? 
Don't think so  

Dont know why to put it in the brochure, but they arent manufactured in Poland nor Belgium. 
This is what it says: _In-house production of zinc-carbon batteries (sizesR03, R6, R14, R20) and LR6 alkaline batteries,packing of eneloop and other batteries.
_And in Belgium: _In-house production of batteries, starting from thecreation of the battery can, to labeling of finishedproducts, packing, and automatic palletization._

Eneloops might be labeled/packed in Belgium, but not produced. Other kinds of Panasonic batteries are produced in Europe, but not eneloop. 
You can see on the package of eneloops sold in Europe, the biggest address is from Panasonic Energy Europe NV, Belgium, and Made in Japan.


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