# Ordered a Mill, now question on a good, non top-of-the-line vise & other tooling



## BVH (Jul 20, 2012)

After thinking for a year or more and having many, many occasions to need a drill press (after having sold mine 8 months ago) I finally ordered the Grizzly 0704 with stand. Many times I thought about just ordering the X2 size because my needs have never been any larger than what the X2 can do but all of you have successfully instilled the "buy the biggest you can afford and fit" mentality into my brain. I even thought about buying a milling attachment for the 1236. But since my main goal was to get an accurate drill press with milling capabilities, I think the 0704 will be more than enough.

I am thinking of a 4" milling vise for the 0704. I want an average quality vise, not a Kurt or anything close to that due to cost. I don't think anything I do in the future will necessitate anything this precision. Just yesterday, I had to file two flats about .800" square and maybe about .125" deep into a 1.5" solid copper bar. It's going to be a heatsink into which two Silicone Diodes will screw. Certainly not precision. But it was absolutely no fun with a double cut file by hand! I don't want something too small nor too big. Even a 4" seems a bit big but many seem to use this size on this machine. I have looked at the Shars, Glacern and others on Ebay. 

First question: How useful is having a swivel base? I know it will add height and even with the 0704, I think available height is not overly plentiful. It seems like a useful feature but not having used a mill, I'm just guessing.

Is $150 to $200 a reasonable range to hope for?

And finally, any recommendations?


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## precisionworks (Jul 20, 2012)

*Re: Ordered a Mill, now question on a good, non top-of-the-line vise*



BVH said:


> I finally ordered the Grizzly 0704 with stand.


Very nice M/D 



> How useful is having a swivel base? I know it will add height and even with the 0704, I think available height is not overly plentiful. It seems like a useful feature but not having used a mill, I'm just guessing.


You may get other opinions but IMO a swivel base on a mill vise is about as useful as attaching wheels to a rowboat. Once in a blue moon those wheels would come in handy to pull the rowboat up a ramp, and the swivel base would see some use every decade or so - that was my experience. If the vise cost less with a swivel base be sure to get it :laughing:



> And finally, any recommendations?


Every maker copies Kurt & most do a sorry job at the copy machine. The one exception is Eron. Best Japanese quality, every bit as well made as Kurt, virtually unknown outside of Asia & Europe. http://www.nabeya.co.jp/search.php?lang=eng&action=Detail&Key=275M1

The Eron Lock-Tight (Kurt already holds the trademark on AngLock) is most often seen in 6" but they do make a 4" version. Pretty hard to find, just like the 4" Kurt ... which sells for much more than the 6". Go figure.


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## BVH (Jul 20, 2012)

*Re: Ordered a Mill, now question on a good, non top-of-the-line vise*



precisionworks said:


> Very nice M/D
> 
> You may get other opinions but IMO a swivel base on a mill vise is about as useful as attaching wheels to a rowboat.



:laughing: That's Great, Barry! Got a good laugh!

Thank you for your insight! No swivel also gives me more height to work with.


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## CMAG (Jul 20, 2012)

*Re: Ordered a Mill, now question on a good, non top-of-the-line vise*

+ 1 on no swivel not much use and when you want to get it back to 0 its no fun 
use shims when needed for small angles or make up a jig 
if you have a slotted table you may find a set of hold down clamps handy

PS enjoy reading your short arc build threads


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## PhotonFanatic (Jul 20, 2012)

*Re: Ordered a Mill, now question on a good, non top-of-the-line vise*



precisionworks said:


> Very nice M/D
> 
> Every maker copies Kurt & most do a sorry job at the copy machine. The one exception is Eron. Best Japanese quality, every bit as well made as Kurt, virtually unknown outside of Asia & Europe. http://www.nabeya.co.jp/search.php?lang=eng&action=Detail&Key=275M1
> 
> The Eron Lock-Tight (Kurt already holds the trademark on AngLock) is most often seen in 6" but they do make a 4" version. Pretty hard to find, just like the 4" Kurt ... which sells for much more than the 6". Go figure.



The price on the nabeya.co.jp website shows the 4" version to list for $1101. :devil: :shakehead


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## precisionworks (Jul 20, 2012)

*Re: Ordered a Mill, now question on a good, non top-of-the-line vise*



PhotonFanatic said:


> The price on the nabeya.co.jp website shows the 4" version to list for $1101. :devil: :shakehead


LOL Fred, I also did the Yen to USD conversion & came up with the same price. The Kurt D40 AngLock (4") retails around $550 but a couple sold on the Practical Machinist Forum last year, one for $150 & the other for $242. Well worth the money.

You can buy a genetically deficient clone for around $100 delivered. I actually owned one for a short time & used it on the small Atlas 7B shaper. Closing the handle tightly produced a gritty grinding feeling but $40 worth of new thrust washers & thrust bearing cured that. The moveable jaw lifted quite a bit as the hemi spherical "anti lift" component was cast instead of ground ... a part from Kurt might have cured that except that someone gave me $75 & I delivered it to his shop. It was the best vise I ever ... sold :nana:


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## PhotonFanatic (Jul 20, 2012)

*Re: Ordered a Mill, now question on a good, non top-of-the-line vise*

I also send in an RFQ with their US distributor--just for chuckles.


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## BVH (Jul 20, 2012)

*Re: Ordered a Mill, now question on a good, non top-of-the-line vise*

How about the Glacerns? Their 4" new is $300, a bit more than I wanted to spend but I'm trying to consider lots of options.


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## precisionworks (Jul 20, 2012)

*Re: Ordered a Mill, now question on a good, non top-of-the-line vise*



> How about the Glacerns? Their 4" new is $300


Or perhaps a like new Kurt D675 for $300 + actual UPS charges? Sounds like a deal you cannot refuse :devil:


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## BVH (Jul 20, 2012)

*Re: Ordered a Mill, now question on a good, non top-of-the-line vise*

I think at Kurt 6" would completely cover the table and maybe be over the tables' max gross!


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## KC2IXE (Jul 21, 2012)

*Re: Ordered a Mill, now question on a good, non top-of-the-line vise*

Travers Tool is right near me, and their house brand 4" Kurt clone looked nice on display. How good it is in USE, I have NO clue - Item 61-204-224 $151 with swivel base. 

What would you be willing to pay for a used REAL 4" Kurt, perfect originat jaws (never dinged) + 4 sets of soft jaws for it?. The vise itself has no cracks/drill marks, BUT the movable slide DOES have some mill marks, and has been repainted, but it served me very very well till I decided to move up to a 6"


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## precisionworks (Jul 21, 2012)

*Re: Ordered a Mill, now question on a good, non top-of-the-line vise*



> ... may be be over the tables' max gross!


Vises aren't so bad as most weight no more than 40kg and often mount near table center. The table moves easily when the weight is directly over the ways. Hang an 80kg super spacer at the very far end of the table & the hand wheels are harder to turn.


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## precisionworks (Jul 21, 2012)

*Re: Ordered a Mill, now question on a good, non top-of-the-line vise*

Here's a nice little Kurt D50 - 5" jaw, just a tad larger than the D40 4". For a buck seventy five + shipping it looks like a great deal: http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1866052#post24720002


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## precisionworks (Jul 21, 2012)

*Re: Ordered a Mill, now question on a good, non top-of-the-line vise*

And a nice one on eBay (for more money but still within your budget): http://www.ebay.com/itm/KURT-5-ANGL...7?pt=BI_Tool_Work_Holding&hash=item2c66eaf043


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## BVH (Jul 21, 2012)

*Re: Ordered a Mill, now question on a good, non top-of-the-line vise*

Thanks for those links Barry. On the Kurts, I see the jaws can be moved for wider capacity. If the fixed mount jaw is moved to the back side, then is clamping limited to only the remaining vertical surface of the jaw that sticks above the fixed mount? If so, is this a practical feature?


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## precisionworks (Jul 22, 2012)

*Re: Ordered a Mill, now question on a good, non top-of-the-line vise*



> If the fixed mount jaw is moved to the back side, then is clamping limited to only the remaining vertical surface of the jaw that sticks above the fixed mount? If so, is this a practical feature?


Both the fixed jaw & the moving jaw can be remounted at the far ends of the vise to hold large parts, pretty handy when you have a 10"x10" plate that needs a few holes drilled, tapped or milled. 

I can't speak for anyone else but I've used the outboard jaw position many times. It's much faster than pulling the vise off the table, setting up the job on parallels, then remounting & realigning the vise, etc.

The "stick up" of the standard jaws is around 1/4" (6.4mm) but there are many sources for taller aftermarket Kurt jaws or you can make what you need in not too much time. Monster Jaws makes nice replacements & the cost is sometimes less than you can make them in your shop: http://stores.ebay.com/Monsterjaws-Mfg-USA?_trksid=p4340.l2563


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## BVH (Jul 22, 2012)

*Re: Ordered a Mill, now question on a good, non top-of-the-line vise*

OK, good to know. And makes perfect sense now that I know about the custom jaws available.


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## precisionworks (Jul 22, 2012)

*Re: Ordered a Mill, now question on a good, non top-of-the-line vise*

One mill vise is a good start 

The Kurt is my main vise as it's big enough & accurate enough to do most any job. The weight is all I want to swing but that's been the case for more years than I can remember. If you work in any production shop/job shop/factory in the USA you'll get to handle all the Kurts you want.

I was planning to sell the smaller 4" Hy-Lo Speed Vise & already had a wooden shipping carton built for it when a job came up a few days ago where the Hy-Lo was a good fit & on the table it went. There's a Palmgren drill press vise that's currently held in the Eron Grip Master vise on the larger drill press. Another Palmgren is a tilt-angle model that gets used on rare occasion for some oddball job on the mill. Yet another Palmgren is a discontinued cam-lock model that is as good as it gets for production work - set up a dead stop & that vise makes it (sort of) easy to knock out 500 parts.

Almost forgot the Robbins Magna-Sine permanent magnet compound sine vise ... bought it for one job & haven't used it since. Probably should sell that one as they currently retail for $3800 USD :devil:

http://www.subtool.com/st/a-ms_magna-sine_magnetic_compound_sine_plates.html


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## wquiles (Jul 22, 2012)

*Re: Ordered a Mill, now question on a good, non top-of-the-line vise*

Although my Kurt is my normal, heavy duty vise, the other one that is much faster and adequate for a LOT of the work I do is my 6" Heinrich Grip-Master. The fact that it weights/costs much less than the Kurt is also a plus. 

In fact I like mine so much that I have two of them. The old/used one is fixed to one of my 5 work benches, I have it setup with soft/padded jaws, and it is my go-to vise to hold anything that I need to use the hand drill or cut with a hack saw, dremel, etc.. While the new one is my "light" go to vise for working on my knee mill.

Yes, I know that is not a good apples to apples comparison - the Kurt is truly in a different league - BUT, the Heinrich Grip-Master is certainly more than adequate for a lot of the work 

Will


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## BVH (Jul 23, 2012)

*Re: Ordered a Mill, now question on a good, non top-of-the-line vise*

Power Longitudinal feed - useful?

What about basic 1 2 3 blocks, parallels and similar items. Not having any mill experience, they all seem essential but I don't know. Can you recommend some basic set-up tools to have on-hand?

I bought a clamping kit and have some basic 4-flute 1/16 - 3/4" Tin coated endmills.

Splurged and got an Albrecht 1/32" - 5/8", Integral R8 Classic Keyless. After having got one for the lathe, I am truly spoiled. It's just fun to use that drill chuck!


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## wquiles (Jul 23, 2012)

*Re: Ordered a Mill, now question on a good, non top-of-the-line vise*



BVH said:


> Splurged and got an Albrecht 1/32" - 5/8", Integral R8 Classic Keyless. After having got one for the lathe, I am truly spoiled. It's just fun to use that drill chuck!


+1

The Albrecht is only drill chuck I use in my knee mill. Just a pleasure to use.

That being said, on my lathe, I use a heavier duty, Jacobs Ball Bearing Super Drill Chuck, specifically the 18N, which goes up to 3/4" 

Will


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## precisionworks (Jul 23, 2012)

*Re: Ordered a Mill, now question on a good, non top-of-the-line vise*



BVH said:


> Power Longitudinal feed - useful?


Without a doubt. Not only does it save fatigue on long, multiple cuts but the pattern is visually consistent - which may or may not be important. Most mill users add one sooner or later. 



> What about basic 1 2 3 blocks, parallels and similar items. Not having any mill experience, they all seem essential but I don't know. Can you recommend some basic set-up tools to have on-hand?


My short list:

A set of normal thickness parallels, usually 1/8" thickness. Buy the one that's in your price range, no need for Hermann Schmidt here 

A set of adjustable parallels. Starrett or Brown & Sharpe make really nice ones & near new sets are sometimes for sale on eBay for $100 or less. 

Some matched V-blocks. Starrett makes the nicest small v-blocks ever, the 278. Not cheap even on eBay but awesome for some types of vise work. Larger V-blocks for larger jobs. 

Dead stop. You can make one but for $60 you can buy the most rigid stop ever made, the Pro Stop from Edge Technology. Make sure to get the model to fit the slots in your table & even then you may need to final mill the tongue to size. http://www.edgetechnologyproducts.com/pro-mill-stop.html


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## BVH (Jul 23, 2012)

*Re: Ordered a Mill, now question on a good, non top-of-the-line vise*

Nice looking dead stop but smallest is 9/16 whereas my slots are .500. Looks like one of the first milling jobs! Milling looks like it will open up the thru-bolt hole circle but I can't see where that would make any difference?

Thanks for the other recommendations. Question on length of the parallels? Does it relate to the vise being used or can an inch or two longer work just as well, or better? And hob about height?


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## precisionworks (Jul 23, 2012)

*Re: Ordered a Mill, now question on a good, non top-of-the-line vise*



> smallest is 9/16 whereas my slots are .500. Looks like one of the first milling jobs! Milling looks like it will open up the thru-bolt hole circle but I can't see where that would make any difference?


Cutting into the bolt circle won't affect the stop as the stop locates on the tongue. Mill down the width but leave it over .500" as almost all table slots have a chamfer at the upper edge. My stop locates on that chamfer. I've used a number of stops, some shop built & others commercial & the Pro Stop is the best of the bunch for lockup. The stop rod is always 90° to the part & that helps assure repeatability. 



> on length of the parallels? Does it relate to the vise being used


Just about every set of parallels is 6" long as that's the most common mill vise width. Not a problem using a 6" parallel with a 4" or 5" vise as long as there's no interference with your setup. Most sets have a range of heights from 1/2" up to 1.5"


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## Phil Ament (Jul 24, 2012)

*Re: Ordered a Mill, now question on a good, non top-of-the-line vise*

Gee whiz, those magnetic vises seem very attractive!


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## Phil Ament (Jul 24, 2012)

*Re: Ordered a Mill, now question on a good, non top-of-the-line vise*



precisionworks said:


> Dead stop. You can make one but for $60 you can buy the most rigid stop ever made, the Pro Stop from Edge Technology. Make sure to get the model to fit the slots in your table & even then you may need to final mill the tongue to size. http://www.edgetechnologyproducts.com/pro-mill-stop.html



Sorry to interupt and I won't do it again, however I just really had to say something. I just had a look at that Pro Stop from Edge Technology and for such a high quality item I could not believe the cheap price. If that was an item for one of my motorcycles I am absolutely certain that it would cost at least $1200 if not more. Fascinating stuff really and a lot like works of art on their own!


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## StrikerDown (Jul 24, 2012)

*Re: Ordered a Mill, now question on a good, non top-of-the-line vise*



Phil Ament said:


> Gee whiz, those magnetic vises seem very attractive!



You would not want a magnetic vise for your mill, they are for holding items that will not be subject to strong cutting forces, typically used on something like a surface grinder.


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## precisionworks (Jul 25, 2012)

*Re: Ordered a Mill, now question on a good, non top-of-the-line vise*



> I just had a look at that Pro Stop from Edge Technology and for such a high quality item I could not believe the cheap price.


+1 Most of their items are low priced for such nice quality. And once it's locked it will not move, even if it gets bumped hard. Mine gets used mostly when a head or tail is being set up for slotting as it allows rotating the head for planar alignment without changing the stickout from the collet. That alone saves a lot of time. 



> You would not want a magnetic vise for your mill ...


+1 I didn't mean to imply that any magnetic vise is appropriate for milling use. Like so many of the items sold by Hermann Schmidt & Suburban Tool these are grinder only fixtures. Pretty sweet when you need to make 100 shims with a face angled to within 1 minute of a degree.


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## BVH (Jul 25, 2012)

*Re: Ordered a Mill, now question on a good, non top-of-the-line vise*

Mr. Grizzly arrives tomorrow. Ordered the items Barry suggested off Ebay, took the "hit" and ordered a new D40 Kurt. A few other posts I've read on this machine indicate their owners put them on risers like a lot of us here have done with the lathes so looks like I might need to get the welder to make me one out of 1/8" wall square tubing. Mill is around 275 and stand is probably 70lbs. I'll probably do something similar to what I did with the 1236 in bringing out out riser extensions beyond the base footprint for more stability. Maybe diagonally at the 4 corners instead of straight out. I ordered 8 Mason feet when I bought them for the lathe so good to go there.

Grizzly is back ordered until Dec for the power feed and Lathemaster is BO for at least 6 weeks so no joy in that department.


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## precisionworks (Jul 26, 2012)

*Re: Ordered a Mill, now question on a good, non top-of-the-line vise*



> ... took the "hit" and ordered a new D40 Kurt ...


OMG Bob, I thought you'd certainly buy something else ... happy to see that you're now a member of the Kurt Klub. You benefits package & official membership card are in the mail. Until then, this should give some comfort:







Use your new Kurt, enjoy it, and know that you'll get back most of the purchase price if or when you decide to sell it. I would dearly love to have a D40.


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## BVH (Jul 26, 2012)

*Re: Ordered a Mill, now question on a good, non top-of-the-line vise*

In the end, it was the same pure enjoyment of using the Albrecht chuck that I expect to feel using the Kurt that tipped me off the fence. And I recently sold a few moderately priced lights which helped in the money.department. Thank you for my certificate!


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## gt40 (Jul 28, 2012)

*Re: Ordered a Mill, now question on a good, non top-of-the-line vise*

Congrats on your Kurt. You can never go wrong with quality work holding. I have been very happy with my 688.


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## StrikerDown (Jul 28, 2012)

*Re: Ordered a Mill, now question on a good, non top-of-the-line vise*



BVH said:


> In the end, it was the same pure enjoyment of using the Albrecht chuck that I expect to feel using the Kurt that tipped me off the fence...



Yea baby. That is what I feel every time I use my kurt...

When it arrives turn it over... even the bottom is gorgeous!


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## StrikerDown (Jul 29, 2012)

*Re: Ordered a Mill, now question on a good, non top-of-the-line vise*

I added a 2X4 box tubing riser to my flimsy base... it really added rigidity to the base cabinet plus the ability to level the mill on my sloped garage floor. Leveling a mill isn't as important as having a lathe level/ to straighten the bed, but it's nice that round items don't roll off the table!






Oh, it also raised the mill to a comfortable height!


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## BVH (Jul 29, 2012)

*Re: Ordered a Mill, now question on a good, non top-of-the-line vise*

Excellent timing, Ray. I remembered your post on my 1236 thread with your pics of the 2x4 box riser. I was at first thinking 2x2 with the orange feet but the table is so very low as it sits now that doing exactly what you did is the answer! I can get 6" of height increase and also cover the floor slope. Thanks!


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## StrikerDown (Jul 29, 2012)

*Re: Ordered a Mill, now question on a good, non top-of-the-line vise*

Cool, hope it helps. I'm anxious to see pics of your new toy!


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## precisionworks (Jul 29, 2012)

*Re: Ordered a Mill, now question on a good, non top-of-the-line vise*



StrikerDown said:


> ... even the bottom is gorgeous!


Ray, you probably know this already but it's worth mentioning - the bottom of the vise is a datum point or reference surface. Always wipe the bottom til it's clean enough to eat from before mounting on the table. 

There are four reference surfaces on the top that you'll want to avoid machining into:






The bed ways are the reference for taller parts that can rest directly on the ways & for parallels to support shorter parts. The tops of the stationary jaw & movable jaw are used mostly when the jaw plates are moved to the outboard position(s). The jaw plates themselves are fair game & most machinists have a field day with those ... sometimes they even do this intentionally


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## BVH (Jul 29, 2012)

*Re: Ordered a Mill, now question on a good, non top-of-the-line vise*

My table is so nice, clean, shiny and unmarked. I suppose sliding even the Kurt around is going to start scratching the surface. I'll try to pick it up to move it when I can, I guess. Or is the table surface hardened enough that the vise becomes the wear surface?


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## precisionworks (Jul 29, 2012)

*Re: Ordered a Mill, now question on a good, non top-of-the-line vise*



BVH said:


> I suppose sliding even the Kurt around is going to start scratching the surface?


If you're careful it shouldn't. First wipe the table with a clean cloth until nothing can be felt on the surface. Then pour on a bit of Vactra #2 way oil & spread it around where the Kurt is going. Wipe the bottom of the vise clean & lower it onto the table. It's easy to slide it around to get it indicated as the Vactra forms an oil cushion.


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## Phil Ament (Jul 29, 2012)

*Re: Ordered a Mill, now question on a good, non top-of-the-line vise*

Gee they look really exquisitely made and I myself would really love to be able to get a couple of those Kurts, however I already have way too many vices, and I don't mean the type that holds things!


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## BVH (Jul 29, 2012)

*Re: Ordered a Mill, now question on a good, non top-of-the-line vise*

I have gallons of the Vactra for the lathe and lightly coating the table was the first thing I did after cleaning the machine. I hit all the dovetails too. Good to know I should be be able to keep it reasonably new-like.

Despite your personal vises, Phil, you haven't lost your sense of humor!


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## KC2IXE (Jul 29, 2012)

*Re: Ordered a Mill, now question on a good, non top-of-the-line vise*

My old Kurt 4" had a bunch of smallish dings in the top of the movable jaw. Been VERY VERY tempted to take it, and the fixed jaw off, bring them over to the surface grinder, and clean them up, like Kurt does on a rebuild. Thoughts?


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## precisionworks (Jul 29, 2012)

*Re: Ordered a Mill, now question on a good, non top-of-the-line vise*



KC2IXE said:


> Been VERY VERY tempted to take it, and the fixed jaw off, bring them over to the surface grinder, and clean them up, like Kurt does on a rebuild.


That's exactly what I'd do.


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## KC2IXE (Jul 29, 2012)

*Re: Ordered a Mill, now question on a good, non top-of-the-line vise*

Well, first I have to get the surface grinder running, which at this point has been 2 years - too busy to just hook up the phase converter.


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## precisionworks (Jul 29, 2012)

*Re: Ordered a Mill, now question on a good, non top-of-the-line vise*

Email your address & I'll drive up with the trailer & get it out of your way


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## KC2IXE (Jul 29, 2012)

*Re: Ordered a Mill, now question on a good, non top-of-the-line vise*

Heh - No, just been busy, and haven't had that much need for one (well, I do, but). At least if you keep your eyes open around here, you can get small to mid sized manual surface grinders (aka no power feed) CHEAP - If I remember right I got mine for $400, WITH a radius dresser AND magnetic chuck - and I could have gotten a 9x12 for the same $$


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## BVH (Jul 30, 2012)

*Re: Ordered a Mill, now question on a good, non top-of-the-line vise*

How's this for rationalization. Bought D40 Kurt for $490 on Ebay. (Arrived and is gorgeous. Perfect size for table) Bought new Albrecht 1/32"-5/8", integral R8 from Amazon for $343. Saw new, identical Albrecht chuck on Ebay for $215 incl. shipping. Bought Ebay Albrecht, will return Amazon Albrecht for cost of shipping (about $15.00) so in the end, Kurt cost me $377.00.


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## precisionworks (Jul 30, 2012)

*Re: Ordered a Mill, now question on a good, non top-of-the-line vise*



> so in the end, Kurt cost me $377.00.


I like your convoluted logic


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## StrikerDown (Jul 30, 2012)

*Re: Ordered a Mill, now question on a good, non top-of-the-line vise*

That works for me also! 
Top quality tooling is such a joy to work with... With all of this really nice tooling when does the mill drill get upgraded!  

Oh, did I say that?


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## precisionworks (Jul 30, 2012)

*Re: Ordered a Mill, now question on a good, non top-of-the-line vise*



> Top quality tooling is such a joy to work with...


+1 Ray.

I remember growing up with my dad out in the shop every night after work building electrical control panels ... and he didn't do it for fun. He had decent hand tools like Klein pliers & a Simpson meter but power tools were almost non existent in that tiny workspace - about 15' square IIRC. The bench grinder was shop built from scavenged parts & the drill press was similar. Back then Sears Craftsman tools were top of the line & still made in the USA - he encouraged me to buy one best quality Craftsman tool instead of a hand full of cheap tools. Eventually I acquired a good collection of hand tools & still use some of them today.

Not having much of anything when young really makes a person appreciate world class tools & tooling. Almost none of my machine tools were purchased new but each is the best that I could afford at the time. Same for tooling. It is a joy to crank down hard on the handle of a Kurt vise knowing that it will not slip & bloody your knuckles. Or to chuck up a freshly sharpened drill bit in an Albrecht & marvel at the precise German engineering. Not to mention working with anything Starrett, Mitutoyo, Brown & Sharpe, etc. 

The sad part of cheap tools & especially cheap tooling is the damage they do. Once or twice every week someone brings in a high value item with a broken off drill or tap stuck firmly in the part. At least 5% of my annual income is generated from unscrewing someones screw up. If a person sees something on YouTube, no matter how difficult or complex, they feel that they can do it with the cheapest drill & tap available. God bless 'em, they pay a lot of bills.


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## KC2IXE (Jul 30, 2012)

*Re: Ordered a Mill, now question on a good, non top-of-the-line vise*

Never realized till today that Albrecht (USA) and Royal are in the same building - and I used to work a few blocks from there


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## precisionworks (Jul 30, 2012)

*Re: Ordered a Mill, now question on a good, non top-of-the-line vise*







http://www.google.com/patents/US1926760?dq=albrecht+chucks


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## CMAG (Jul 30, 2012)

*Re: Ordered a Mill, now question on a good, non top-of-the-line vise*

looks just like the key less one in my tail stock, smooth


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## BVH (Aug 1, 2012)

*Re: Ordered a Mill, now question on a good, non top-of-the-line vise*

Barry, saw your post of the good deals sticky Re: collet chucks. Is there a brand of R8 collet chuck that is along the quality lines of the Albrecht drill chuck? And what is a "good" brand?


----------



## precisionworks (Aug 1, 2012)

*Re: Ordered a Mill, now question on a good, non top-of-the-line vise*

Will Q & I both have the Bison/TMX collet chuck set. Lately I've been buying ETM collets (made by Iscar) & I like the ETM's even better than Bison.

Size is up to you but ER-40 covers everything from about 1/4" to 1" ... good luck trying to tighten down on any tiny shank in an ER-40 collet. Better to use an ER-16 extension & run it in the ER-40 collet, something I do whenever I mill titanium trit slots.


----------



## precisionworks (Aug 1, 2012)

*Re: Ordered a Mill, now question on a good, non top-of-the-line vise*

Here's an interesting bit of somewhat hard to find info ... some companies like ETM make only metric sized collets but the catalog companies like Enco list them in English units  

Other companies like Lyndex (sold by McMaster) make both metric & English. Does it really matter as the ER collets all have a range of collapse of 1mm ... YES it does.

A collet sized 3/8" has a range from .344" - .375". Slide any 3/8" tool into that collet & it fits like a glove. 

A collet sized 10mm has a range from .354" - .393". A 3/8" shank rattles around like a bucket of bolts, although you can tighten the collet up enough to close down on the shank. 

The collet that has a sliding fit is the best choice. TIR is lower & breakaway torque is higher. No matter which collet set you purchase be sure to remember that most sets are metric, even if marked in fractional inches. If a shank drops through a collet be careful - for light cuts that aren't critical you may do fine. Push a 3/8" twist drill hard into 4140HT, using a 10mm collet, and you may see what I witnessed - drill stops & spindle keeps spinning. Scored the crap out of the drill shank & into the trash it went. Left the same score marks inside the collet so that one went to the trash as well. Had I been smart a 3/8" collet would have been purchased sooner than later.



> Is there a brand of R8 collet chuck that is along the quality lines of the Albrecht drill chuck? And what is a "good" brand?


The Bison collet chuck is well made. I've not seen an ETM collet chuck but their collets compare well with Bison, perhaps a little nicer. For "Albrecht quality" the most beautifully machined collets are Lyndex from Japan. Mirror finished inside & out, super low TIR, so nice to look at that you almost hate to use them. 

I've never seen the Royal Ultra Precision ER collets but expect them to be similar to Royal live centers - world class. Techniks collets get good reviews on most machining forums & would be worth a look.


----------



## darkzero (Aug 1, 2012)

*Re: Ordered a Mill, now question on a good, non top-of-the-line vise*



precisionworks said:


> Techniks collets get good reviews on most machining forums & would be worth a look.



Any thoughts on these? They're pricey though!



> *Focus on workholding
> 
> How you hold a part in place is often just as important as how it is cut*
> 
> ...


----------



## precisionworks (Aug 2, 2012)

*Re: Ordered a Mill, now question on a good, non top-of-the-line vise*



> *ER collets 6mm and smaller allow 40% of the collet to extend out of the collet pocket. This means 40% of the jaw surface area does not properly collapse on the tool shank because they are unsupported by the wall of the pocket.*



Maybe sort of ... until they publish side by side comparisons with breakaway torque numbers there's no way to tell. If your setup requires a great deal of tool stick out like those in their images it might make a difference. When I set up for trit slots in Ti here's exactly how it looks:

Wide view:





Detail view:





The tool is an SGS four flute with AlTiN coating, .0625" diameter with a .125" shank. It could be moved back into the collet another 3mm or so but this stick out works really well. Normal DOC is 6.5% of diameter (0.1mm) & feed is right out of Machinery's Handbook. Since the tool is never run aggressively there's no concern about spinning the tool in the collet. It helps that the shank is .125" and the collet bore is (best guess) .12475" - the most perfectly smooth sliding fit that anyone could want. 

Here's where you'll get into trouble & break the tips off the tool ... most 1.5mm/2.0mm/2.5mm metric end mills are made with a 3mm shank. 3mm = .118" so it's tempting to plop the metric shank into the inch collet. In a genuine emergency (middle of the night on the weekend) it will work for a slot or two. Examine the tips of the tool under 10x magnification & chances are nearly 100% that some or all of the teeth are chipped. Toss that tool in the trash, load in a fresh tool & keep on working. The most I've ever burned through was four & the customer knew that the tooling cost was being added to the bill. There was one spare tool left on the shelf when it was all over.

Detail view of Lyndex collet:





Pretty enough that it would look good on a gold neck chain 

The need for the extended collet is pretty clear in this image. Not a lot of room around the vise jaws.






Probably some members are thinking "Isn't there a lot of runout or flex with that overhang". This image shows mirror finished walls that indicate TIR is well under .0005"






The rest of the head is shown here:


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## precisionworks (Aug 3, 2012)

*Re: Ordered a Mill, now question on a good, non top-of-the-line vise*

About 10 days ago I ordered an ER-16 3mm Royal Precision collet for $19. Back ordered & was going to ship next week. This morning an eBay search found a Techniks Super Precision collet for $12.50 delivered  Cancelled the Amazon order & put the 3mm collet in the shopping cart. 

Been wanting to get a dedicated 1" ER-40 collet to use with the 1" ER-16 extension but the ETM's run about $36. Found a Techniks 1" on the same site for $17.95 delivered & got that one too. (Amazon also sells Techniks but through Travers Tool & that adds $8 shipping.) Great selection & excellent prices: http://stores.ebay.com/allindustrialtoolsupply


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## BVH (Aug 3, 2012)

*Re: Ordered a Mill, now question on a good, non top-of-the-line vise*

Looks like a great source for economical to expensive tooling! Thanks for the link Barry!


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## StrikerDown (Aug 3, 2012)

*Re: Ordered a Mill, now question on a good, non top-of-the-line vise*

Barry is always a great source for finding ways to spend money... and he is damn good at it!


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## precisionworks (Aug 3, 2012)

*Re: Ordered a Mill, now question on a good, non top-of-the-line vise*

Careful Ray, you sound exactly like my CPA  He claims my business would show a profit if I ever stop buying equipment & tooling. At least I pinch pennies, never pay retail, often buy used or new old stock and anything else to stretch the dollar. The doors would have closed years ago if everything came from MSC


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## StrikerDown (Aug 3, 2012)

*Re: Ordered a Mill, now question on a good, non top-of-the-line vise*

Hahaha! I have to admit having champagne tastes and a beer budget myself. When it comes to most tools this is a hobby so it's a bit more difficult to justify spending the "big" bucks on the best quality, but I do love having the best I can afford! Such a quandary :-/ All that said, I do appreciate the tips and good deals you post as do many others I'm sure.


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## BVH (Aug 5, 2012)

*Re: Ordered a Mill, now question on a good, non top-of-the-line vise*

OK, already have a project that requires a rotary table. At least that's the only way I have thought of to cut a .0625 thick, 2.5" OD o-ring-type grove in end of a piece of 3" round bar about 1" thick.

The typical questions:

What is a good quality brand and what is a "kurt" quality brand?
I'd like one with a chuck. I'm thinking maybe a 6".
What does a dividing plate do?


----------



## StrikerDown (Aug 6, 2012)

*Re: Ordered a Mill, now question on a good, non top-of-the-line vise*

Yuasa. 
Japanese made, very nice quality. if you are patient sometimes they go for a decent price on eBay... patients is the key though... I'm not!

I have a Phase II, 8" Horizontal/Vertical rotary table w/ Dividing plates and tail stock... No chuck... Chuck is on the wish list! It works well, pretty smooth, pretty tight.


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## precisionworks (Aug 6, 2012)

*Re: Ordered a Mill, now question on a good, non top-of-the-line vise*



StrikerDown said:


> Yuasa.
> Japanese made, very nice quality.


+1

Yuasa is as good as you'll find in rotary workholding. Before you buy anything make sure that you want a RT & not a spacer or indexer. I've used & owned rotary tables & find that for what I do they aren't as versatile as a spacer.

A spacer is essentially a RT without the crank handle. Most will index to 15° (24 spacings) as well as any multiple - 30°, 45°, 60°, etc. You can use a RT to space features & it's just as accurate but slower. Spacers usually come with a chuck attached.

For a job like the O-ring a lathe is far & away better. With radial DOC at .250" (6.35mm) it's going to take a while on the RT. Guessing that you'll be able to take about one fourth of the depth per rotation so around four rotations to reach full depth.

Most RT's come without a chuck & many have no provision for chuck mounting. You'll need to build some type of adapter to marry the two.



> I have a Phase II 8" Horizontal/Vertical rotary table w/ Dividing plates and tail stock ...


My setup is close, Phase II 8" super spacer with indexing plates & tail stock that was found on Enco & adapted. Chuck is a Chinese set-tru-sorta ... hey, you don't pay $150 for an 8" & expect $800 worth of performance. 

If you buy a new Phase II figure on half a day to reman the tool. After full dis-assembly you'll sometimes find a handful of either beach sand or casting slag, not sure which. Most machined edges have small burrs & are razor sharp. About two hours for the RT or spacer & two more on the chuck. The Phase II chuck is superbly crude but it gets better after a tear down, deburr, refitting & lube. 

Have fun, either a spacer of RT are highly useful tools.


Typical setup for slot milling (Delrin split collet holding head of light):







Light held in 5C collet:






Head of light secured with 5C internal expanding arbor, tail supported by turned & fitted Delrin plug & tailstock:






Tail supported by universal expanding arbor (expander bolt is just visible in the tail switch opening). Image shows arbor gripped by 5C collet but these arbors are gripped almost as well by the 3-jaw or 4-jaw chuck:






Each arbor is custom turned to fit one specific inside diameter so they are sacrificial tooling - keep working them down til nothing is left. Typical TIR if carefully machined on the lathe is around .0001" (.0025mm). If you decide to buy either type of arbor this seller makes awesome products: http://www.ebay.com/sch/thirdwheelrider/m.html?hash=item25739f02a4&item=160853590692&pt=BI_Tool_Work_Holding&rt=nc&_trksid=p4340.l2562


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## precisionworks (Aug 6, 2012)

*Re: Ordered a Mill, now question on a good, non top-of-the-line vise*



precisionworks said:


> ... found a Techniks 3mm Super Precision collet for $12.50 delivered  Found a Techniks 1" on the same site for $17.95 delivered & got that one too. Great selection & excellent prices: http://stores.ebay.com/allindustrialtoolsupply



You cannot judge a collet by the cheap looking cardboard box in which it comes 

The collets are (surprisingly) some of the best I've ever touched & that includes ETM & Lyndex. No time to post images now but these are top shelf items with dirt cheap pricing. (NOTE: mine are the "standard" super precision & not the DNC's that DarkZero mentioned.) All Industrial Tools is likewise a pleasure to deal with.


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## BVH (Aug 6, 2012)

*Re: Ordered a Mill, now question on a good, non top-of-the-line vise*

Want to be sure I'm describing what I need to do correctly. Imagine a 2.75" OD x .500" thick piece of solid bar stock. A hockey puck, so to speak. I want to cut a 2.5" OD/2.375" ID circular groove .375 deep into the flat surface. Similar to lowering a hole saw .375 deep into a piece of wood. The end of the tube is going to seat into the groove. Is there a tool for doing this on the lathe? The first thing that came to mind was something like a parting tool but with its height, it's not going to cut very deep.


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## precisionworks (Aug 6, 2012)

*Re: Ordered a Mill, now question on a good, non top-of-the-line vise*

Quite a few variations of trepanning tools ... here's a lathe tool that will work: http://www.penntoolco.com/catalog/products/products.cfm?categoryID=1664


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## BVH (Aug 6, 2012)

*Re: Ordered a Mill, now question on a good, non top-of-the-line vise*

1/16" widths in trepanning tools are almost not to be found. .078" widths are out there and very costly. Approaching or exceeding some RT's. What about using a 1/16" diameter round piece of HSS extended only about 7/16" (for the 3/8" deep cut) and supported all the way out to that extension and advancing very slowly? The endcap is Alum.


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## precisionworks (Aug 6, 2012)

*Re: Ordered a Mill, now question on a good, non top-of-the-line vise*

No quick & easy way that I can see. Spin up a .0625" aluminum specific (high shear) end mill in the spindle, run the mill at the highest speed, take 20%-25% of diameter as DOC. Biggest prob is that the mill has not enough rpm & 25K-50K works really well in aluminum. Mount a woodworking router or die grinder to the spindle, use it to spin the tool & it will go fast.






If you go with the Bosch router shown above (about $100) you'll want to buy the available ER collet for it ... another $75. http://www.precisebits.com/products/equipment/bosch_colt_collets_nuts.asp


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## BVH (Aug 7, 2012)

*Re: Ordered a Mill, now question on a good, non top-of-the-line vise*

OK, I've never held or seen a collet in real-life so this may sound fairly naive.....I intend to get a collet chuck and collets at some point but since my machine has only a 13+ overall table to spindle height and in the interest of gaining vertical capacity for those future "tall jobs", do collets fit directly into the taper of the R8 spindle bore and secure with a longer drawbar?


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## gadget_lover (Aug 7, 2012)

*Re: Ordered a Mill, now question on a good, non top-of-the-line vise*

There are collets that fit directly into the R8 taper. They provide a way to hold a round shank tool. The R8 collets are designed for specific sizes, so the 3/8 collet will not hold a 5/16 shank tool with any precision ( if at all ). The R8 collet is almost flush with the nose of the spindle.

The ER16, 32 or 40 collets use a collect chuck. For your machine this chuck would have a shaft with an R8 taper, and the chuck will protrude an 2 to 3 inches from the spindle. The ER collet fits into the chuck. The collets are much more forgiving. A 16 piece set will cover all sizes from 1/8 to the max of the collet. 

The R8 are what you need to maximize the vertical capacity.

Daniel


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## BVH (Aug 7, 2012)

*Re: Ordered a Mill, now question on a good, non top-of-the-line vise*

Excellent! Thanks Daniel. That has the potential of giving me 2-3 more inches of height - almost a necessity if I want a 6" tall indexing or rotary table with chuck, the work piece and the tool to fit.


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## precisionworks (Aug 8, 2012)

*Re: Ordered a Mill, now question on a good, non top-of-the-line vise*



> For your machine (the collet chuck) would have a shaft with an R8 taper, and the chuck will protrude an 2 to 3 inches from the spindle.



The easiest work around is to use a 3/4" R-8 collet & a 3/4" diameter ER-16 stubby extension (for the smaller tools). The extension can be pushed way up inside the R-8 collet so that the only part sticking out is the nut (with collet inside). That means only 1/2" stick out so it may work for you.

IMO the R-8 collets do OK for the larger shanks, anything above 3/8". R-8 collets use set screws to retain the shank in the collet & that slightly pushes the shank to one side. For 3/8" and below the ER-16 is a super accurate setup. Even if you aren't making Space Shuttle parts this increased accuracy has two benefits. First is that surface finish is better & slot edges are smoother, usually with zero burr. Second is greatly increased tool life. I had to chip a bunch of 1.5mm & 2.0mm solid carbide end mills to figure this out & that's not an inexpensive lesson to learn. The stubby ER-16 extension is way less costly than constantly replacing $15-$20 end mills.


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## BVH (Aug 8, 2012)

*Re: Ordered a Mill, now question on a good, non top-of-the-line vise*

Barry, that sounds like a good plan. Looking at Enco, is Scully Jones an above average quality brand and ETM an average brand?


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## precisionworks (Aug 8, 2012)

*Re: Ordered a Mill, now question on a good, non top-of-the-line vise*

Scully Jones & ETM are both high end. Never used either one but would expect both to be excellent. 

Both my ER-16 extensions are Craftsman Products (USA). Excellent fit & finish, low TIR, not too expensive: http://www.ebay.com/itm/ER16-STUBBY...5?pt=BI_Tool_Work_Holding&hash=item19c5698f87


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## PhotonFanatic (Aug 9, 2012)

*Re: Ordered a Mill, now question on a good, non top-of-the-line vise*



BVH said:


> Want to be sure I'm describing what I need to do correctly. Imagine a 2.75" OD x .500" thick piece of solid bar stock. A hockey puck, so to speak. I want to cut a 2.5" OD/2.375" ID circular groove .375 deep into the flat surface. Similar to lowering a hole saw .375 deep into a piece of wood. The end of the tube is going to seat into the groove. Is there a tool for doing this on the lathe? The first thing that came to mind was something like a parting tool but with its height, it's not going to cut very deep.



You should do that job on the lathe--pretty easy if you have a face grooving tool:


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## precisionworks (Aug 9, 2012)

*Re: Ordered a Mill, now question on a good, non top-of-the-line vise*



PhotonFanatic said:


> You should do that job on the lathe--pretty easy if you have a face grooving tool


Fred, you always have the nicest specialty tooling  

This shows why the Thinbits inserts work so well:


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## BVH (Aug 9, 2012)

*Re: Ordered a Mill, now question on a good, non top-of-the-line vise*

Not having any of the good stuff shown here, I decided to fasten the endcaps using a different method. Does the tool above come in smaller widths such as .063 or .078"?


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## PhotonFanatic (Aug 9, 2012)

*Re: Ordered a Mill, now question on a good, non top-of-the-line vise*

*GROOVE 'N TURN® Insertable Face Grooving Tools*



Major diameters of .300”, .750”, 1.250” and 3”
For Depths of Cut 2-1/2 to 3 times groove width
Groove widths .004” - .150” in .001” increments
Inserts can groove, turn/bore and generate profiles.
Inserts can also be used for OD/ID grooving.

ThinBit isn't the only company making these. 

You can also just grind your own bit.


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## BVH (Aug 9, 2012)

*Re: Ordered a Mill, now question on a good, non top-of-the-line vise*

I've had a 1/4" HSS tool in my box for over 30 years. I finally took it out and ground it down to as close to .063 as I could. I tried to grind some vertical taper to it but being so small, didn't do so well. I tired it carefully anyway for my original intention and got to about .075 depth before it snapped off. It was an educational experience!


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## precisionworks (Aug 9, 2012)

*Re: Ordered a Mill, now question on a good, non top-of-the-line vise*

OK, tried my best not to post this (Yield not to temptation  ) but here's a deal I could not refuse. ThinBit runs a promo once a year during which you send them any old tool holder you have, dead or alive, any brand, and they discount the holder of your choice by 50%. Maximum of two holders sent in with one purchase order (easy to generate in Word). Promo is running now, not sure how much longer. Yes, I sent in two of mine that I dug out of the "this is too bad to use" pile.


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## BVH (Aug 9, 2012)

*Re: Ordered a Mill, now question on a good, non top-of-the-line vise*

Sounds fantastic! Do you have a link or is it by email, paper flier or?

Found it.


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## precisionworks (Aug 10, 2012)

*Re: Ordered a Mill, now question on a good, non top-of-the-line vise*

Isn't that cool  Limit of two per order but no limit how many orders one person can place. Might be a good time to pick up some $10 holders on eBay as they are worth at least $50 off when traded in.

http://www.thinbit.com/literature/promotions.html


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## BVH (Aug 12, 2012)

*Re: Ordered a Mill, now question on a good, non top-of-the-line vise*

Barry, somehow I missed your reference to Royal and Techniks collets. I've been looking at both today. Are the Techniks the better quality of the two or are they equal? Does the round ground I.D. surface of the Royal make a difference? (Looking at the ER-16 sizes)



precisionworks said:


> About 10 days ago I ordered an ER-16 3mm Royal Precision collet for $19. Back ordered & was going to ship next week. This morning an eBay search found a Techniks Super Precision collet for $12.50 delivered  Cancelled the Amazon order & put the 3mm collet in the shopping cart.
> 
> Been wanting to get a dedicated 1" ER-40 collet to use with the 1" ER-16 extension but the ETM's run about $36. Found a Techniks 1" on the same site for $17.95 delivered & got that one too. (Amazon also sells Techniks but through Travers Tool & that adds $8 shipping.) Great selection & excellent prices: http://stores.ebay.com/allindustrialtoolsupply


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## precisionworks (Aug 13, 2012)

*Re: Ordered a Mill, now question on a good, non top-of-the-line vise*



BVH said:


> Are the Techniks the better quality of the two or are they equal?



IMO everything made by Royal Products is world class. However ... both Royal & Techniks guarantee 6 microns (0.0002") TIR so neither one claims to be better than the other. Royal does state that each collet is inspected (aka 100% inspection) & Teckniks does not make this claim. Bottom line is that there is a small possibility of getting a non-spec collet from Teckniks. 

OTOH the Teckniks collets run $12-$13 each & Royals pricing is twice as much. Techniks are surprisingly nice & dead accurate.



> Does the round ground I.D. surface of the Royal make a difference? (Looking at the ER-16 sizes)



It pains me to break this news to Royal but all ultra precision & high precision collets have a ground ID  

Royal is correct when they state:


> All Royal ER Collets are available from stock in both inch and metric sizes. This is very important because it enables you to select a collet that has been ground to your precise cutting tool size.
> Using a collet that is perfectly matched to the cutting tool diameter ensures that full surface contact is achieved, resulting in higher gripping force, better accuracy, less vibration, better surface finishes, and longer tool life.



Said in fewer & less confusing terms _Use inch collets for inch tooling & metric collets for metric tooling._ Is it possible to run a 3mm shank in a 1/8" collet ... if you are not concerned with accuracy or tool life it is possible. Last time I pulled that stunt a brand new end mill made three slots before the tips chipped off. Royal shows a terrible image to illustrate their point:






The only possible way to get flats inside a collet is either with a broach or an EDM & no manufacturer uses either method. A 3mm tool shank simply falls through a 1/8" collet (same applies to other metric tool + inch collet combinations). Royal then shows this image:





A more accurate statement is "Full surface contact because ALL inch collets (no matter which brand) are ground to exact inch sizes & ALL metric collets (no matter which brand) are ground to exact metric sizes". This applies to both standard precision (0.0005") and ultra precision (0.0002") collets.

This is profound ...



> _Use inch collets for inch tooling & metric collets for metric tooling._


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## BVH (Aug 13, 2012)

*Re: Ordered a Mill, now question on a good, non top-of-the-line vise*

As always, thanks for your very informative responses! Will the typical precision or ultra precision ER-16 collet accept and work well with the next size up and down (by 64ths) endmill or what is, if any the acceptable range up and down from it's stated size? Can collets be used with drill bits?


----------



## precisionworks (Aug 13, 2012)

*Re: Ordered a Mill, now question on a good, non top-of-the-line vise*

Each collet you look at should have a range listed. If the shank size is within the range it should grip. Best grip is size on size (1/4" shank end mill + 1/4" collet, 6mm shank end mill + 6mm collet). You may or may not get acceptable performance with some combinations. 

With a well matched shank & collet it's easy to mill, drill & even tap some materials.

This article offers a good explanation: http://www.remsales.com/home/resources/er_collet_conundrum.html


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## BVH (Aug 13, 2012)

*Re: Ordered a Mill, now question on a good, non top-of-the-line vise*

OK, now moving on to endmill sets. I've got cheapie Tin coated endmills from 1/16 to 3/4". For the lathe, there are Alum/non ferrous specific and steel specific inserts. For milling, there seems to be HSS and Carbide used for all metals? Assuming that a good carbide set can be used for all metals, who makes a Techniks/Royal (for collets) grade endmill set?


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## precisionworks (Aug 13, 2012)

*Re: Ordered a Mill, now question on a good, non top-of-the-line vise*

FWIW a set of end mills isn't as useful as a set of twist drills. Buy the size needed for each job and eventually you'll have a set (sort of).

Lately most of mine have come from Amazon or McMaster but eBay is always where the bargains are. Anything made in USA, Japan, Israel, Europe, etc. is nice tooling. I run mostly solid carbide but have some solid cobalt end mills for the more abusive jobs - long tool overhang, less than rigid setup, thin parts that vibrate, etc. Those jobs eat solid carbide tooling like candy but the cobalt suffers less. Roughers & rougher/finishers are really handy & much faster than finishers.


----------



## PhotonFanatic (Aug 13, 2012)

*Re: Ordered a Mill, now question on a good, non top-of-the-line vise*



BVH said:


> OK, now moving on to endmill sets. I've got cheapie Tin coated endmills from 1/16 to 3/4". For the lathe, there are Alum/non ferrous specific and steel specific inserts. For milling, there seems to be HSS and Carbide used for all metals? Assuming that a good carbide set can be used for all metals, who makes a Techniks/Royal (for collets) grade endmill set?



All of these brands have worked well for me: Guhring, OSG, Data Flute, Sandvik, Garr, Harvey Tool and MA Ford.

EBay is the way to go, check prices on Carbide Depot to get some rough values.


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## BVH (Aug 13, 2012)

*Re: Ordered a Mill, now question on a good, non top-of-the-line vise*

I find that most of the work I do is in Aluminum. If I go with carbide endmills as I need them, is uncoated or coated best? If coated, which one?


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## PhotonFanatic (Aug 13, 2012)

*Re: Ordered a Mill, now question on a good, non top-of-the-line vise*

Uncoated would work just fine for AL, even for Ti, although ALTiN coated is better for Ti.


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## precisionworks (Aug 13, 2012)

*Re: Ordered a Mill, now question on a good, non top-of-the-line vise*



PhotonFanatic said:


> Uncoated would work just fine for AL, even for Ti, although ALTiN coated is better for Ti.


+1

Look for "high shear" or aluminum specific tools. Lots of choices today.


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## stjohn (Aug 13, 2012)

*Re: Ordered a Mill, now question on a good, non top-of-the-line vise*

Hi BVH,
beware once you start on the slippery slope of buying tools you will spend more on that than on torches! Ebay like some of the other guys said is a great source and you can pick up some excellent bargains but beware there are different grades of tungsten carbide. Try to go only for known high quality brands and talk to the seller - find out where they come from if you can. Don't let that put you off but do give it some consideration...

cheers, stjohn


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## BVH (Aug 13, 2012)

*Re: Ordered a Mill, now question on a good, non top-of-the-line vise*

In looking at the Alum specific, 3-flute high helix products, they want to run at 800 SFM give or take. No way am I going to be anywhere near that with a max RPM of 2250. With a POT mod, I can safely get up to 3,000 RPM without harming the bearings. But that puts me around 200 SFM with a .250 endmill.

So with this in-mind - How do the Alum specific endmills work at low SFM? (Iy tend to take light cuts, never hogging anything out, just sort of "trimming")


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## precisionworks (Aug 18, 2012)

*Re: Ordered a Mill, now question on a good, non top-of-the-line vise*



BVH said:


> How do the Alum specific endmills work at low SFM? (Iy tend to take light cuts, never hogging anything out, just sort of "trimming")


In just a few words ... all end mills suck when run far outside the recommended speed & feed.

Not to say it's impossible, we've all done it. Biggest issue is that (in order to keep the chipload/tooth in an acceptable range) the feed has to be really really S L O W 

If you plan to run the tiny ones in aluminum the high speed motor attachment will pay for itself. Without the high speed attachment the best option is a 4-flute rougher, highest spindle speed available, continuous air jet (or flood, mist, MQL, etc.) to avoid recutting chips, and a gentle hand on the feed wheel. Cobalt does better at tolerating abuse than solid carbide & a 4-flute cobalt rougher costs about half of carbide. On top of that it will last longer & keep more of its teeth when run super slow.

YMMV


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## BVH (Aug 18, 2012)

*Re: Ordered a Mill, now question on a good, non top-of-the-line vise*

Repost

Second mill project was to machine a Little Machine 4-jaw chuck adapter to fit the new South Bend 6" rotary table. So it seemed appropriate to use the rotary table to do part of the job. Made new shouldered holes at 120 and 240 degrees and used the lathe to machine down the 30mm spindle boss to .688". .050" wall thickness left on the boss with a nice twist-in fit. A pic of the mill with work holding tools.


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## wquiles (Aug 19, 2012)

*Re: Ordered a Mill, now question on a good, non top-of-the-line vise*

I see a HUGE problem with your setup :shakehead

It is too darn clean and neat - go cut more chips, pronto :devil:

Will


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## CMAG (Aug 19, 2012)

*Re: Ordered a Mill, now question on a good, non top-of-the-line vise*


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## BVH (Aug 19, 2012)

*Re: Ordered a Mill, now question on a good, non top-of-the-line vise*



wquiles said:


> I see a HUGE problem with your setup :shakehead
> It is too darn clean and neat - go cut more chips, pronto
> 
> Will



There in-lies the problem! Wonderful, capable machines, great tools to go with them, eagerness to use them but nothing to make:shakehead

Just yesterday I was desperate so I chucked up the mills OEM supplied spindle holding tool with the pin on the end and parted off the pin because it was about .007" too small and waggled back and forth in the spindle hole too much for my liking when working with the drawbar. Turned down the end and now it's about .001" smaller and fits nice and snug!


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## gadget_lover (Aug 19, 2012)

*Re: Ordered a Mill, now question on a good, non top-of-the-line vise*



BVH said:


> Just yesterday I was desperate so I chucked up the mills OEM supplied spindle holding tool with the pin on the end and parted off the pin because it was about .007" too small and waggled back and forth in the spindle hole too much for my liking when working with the drawbar. Turned down the end and now it's about .001" smaller and fits nice and snug!



That reminds me of the complaint "I've cut it three times and it's STILL too short!"

I suspect the pin is tapered? Or did you just replace it?

Daniel


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## BVH (Aug 20, 2012)

*Re: Ordered a Mill, now question on a good, non top-of-the-line vise*

What do others do regarding aligning their vise after removal? Keep the vise on full-time. Use index marks and it's good enough. Dial indicate the fixed jaw along the X axis. Any others would be appreciated.


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## gadget_lover (Aug 20, 2012)

*Re: Ordered a Mill, now question on a good, non top-of-the-line vise*

I can tell you the wrong way:

a) Use the vise on the left side of the table. Indicate the fixed jaw. Leave the vise in place. Seldom check it again, unless you suspect an alignment problem.

b) Take it off to do some bigger piece, then put it back on in roughly the right alignment so you can drill some holes quickly. Forget about it for a few days/weeks/months. By the next time you use it you will have forgotten that it's only 'close' and will screw up a piece.

To do it right, indicate it after re-mounting it, and whenever you are starting a new part. Chances are that it will be in good alignment, but why take chances? Using keys (to match the table slots) will make it close without indicating.

Daniel


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## gt40 (Aug 20, 2012)

*Re: Ordered a Mill, now question on a good, non top-of-the-line vise*

Congrats on your purchase. FYI, your mill is cleaner than mine ever was when it was brand new In that vein, I hope that isn't blue carpet on the floor under the mill. The shards you generate from use very quickly embed and permanently weave themselves in very quickly. Skarf also finds it way into fabrics, shoes etc. as the wifey tells me all the time... 





I don't think my mill has ever been that clean


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## precisionworks (Aug 20, 2012)

*Re: Ordered a Mill, now question on a good, non top-of-the-line vise*



BVH said:


> What do others do regarding aligning their vise after removal?


Bob, this works for me but YMMV.

Clean the bottom of the vise & the top of the table. Clamp down the T-nuts only finger tight & _either push the vise away until it stops against the bolts OR pull it to you until it stops against the bolts._ Tighten the nuts til just beyond finger tight, maybe 1/8 turn. Indicate the fixed jaw by traversing across. Correct with a tap from a brass hammer against the vise base near the handle. Traverse again & correct again. Final tighten & mill away.

Two or three minutes isn't unusual after you've done this a few times.


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## BVH (Aug 20, 2012)

*Re: Ordered a Mill, now question on a good, non top-of-the-line vise*

Thanks Barry. I did similar to what you describe the first time I mounted the vise. But I didn't have a good set of mounting hardware to easily mount the test indicator. I ended up using some vise grips on a piece of non-tool metal to make it work. Really hoaky!! So I set out to make a simple piece of shaft that would allow me to mount the TI quickly. That's when I discovered the issue with the lathe. (Have you read about my issue in my PM1236 thread?) So anyway, I'll use your method and I agree, it went much faster with second time with the right tools. I was impressed with my eye sight....I positioned the vise by "eye", installed it finger tight and the first fixed jaw pass yielded only .0075" from perfect.


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## precisionworks (Aug 21, 2012)

*Re: Ordered a Mill, now question on a good, non top-of-the-line vise*

Good to hear that Bob 

FWIW the most versatile mill indicator holder is the Indicol with Adjustol fine adjustment. I have a spare one if you're interested, please email for details.

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B0006J3XKY/?tag=cpf0b6-20


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