# Blade Material: 440c vs 154cm



## Greyhound

Not sure which is considered better. Here is benchmades site that describes both:

http://www.benchmade.com/about_knives/our_blades.asp#Blade_Steels

What is your opinion?


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## Spikedog

Both are pretty good steels. 154CM is being used more recently for mid-priced knives. I have had a couple of Emerson's in 154CM that stay sharp pretty well.


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## Gary123

154 CM is a generally superior steel to 440C. You can a Google search on "Blade Steels" and find lots of information.

154 has had a storied history. I was originally introduced for the blades within jet turbine engines. Later, it was found to be a superior blade steel, but there were problems in the finishing of the steel because it would "blemish" and not look proper. Don't know if this affected performance or not, but the steel fell out of favor in knifemaking. Hitachi went on to make a virtually identical steel in ATS 34 that became the most widely used steel by custom knife makers. There were other reasons why Hitachi's steel became so popular, but was a fine steel nonetheless. Eventually the problems with 154 were corrected and for several years it enjoyed the status of being included among the "gourmet steels" in the knife community. For a number of years it was the best blade steel made in the US. 440C never reached such status. 154 and ATS 34 declined in popularity with the emergence of CPM's S30V and some of the powdered steels like 440V and now even further with Hitachi's latest, ZDP 189.

440C's primary advantage is superb rust resistance. Although Microtech would stonewash 154 to improve resistance to rust for their knives used by underwater demolition teams and Seals - as in the Amphibian and L-UDT.

Probably more than you wanted to know.


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## Greyhound

Gary123 said:


> 154 CM is a generally superior steel to 440C. You can a Google search on "Blade Steels" and find lots of information.
> 
> 154 has had a storied history. I was originally introduced for the blades within jet turbine engines. Later, it was found to be a superior blade steel, but there were problems in the finishing of the steel because it would "blemish" and not look proper. Don't know if this affected performance or not, but the steel fell out of favor in knifemaking. Hitachi went on to make a virtually identical steel in ATS 34 that became the most widely used steel by custom knife makers. There were other reasons why Hitachi's steel became so popular, but was a fine steel nonetheless. Eventually the problems with 154 were corrected and for several years it enjoyed the status of being included among the "gourmet steels" in the knife community. For a number of years it was the best blade steel made in the US. 440C never reached such status. 154 and ATS 34 declined in popularity with the emergence of CPM's S30V and some of the powdered steels like 440V and now even further with Hitachi's latest, ZDP 189.
> 
> 440C's primary advantage is superb rust resistance. Although Microtech would stonewash 154 to improve resistance to rust for their knives used by underwater demolition teams and Seals - as in the Amphibian and L-UDT.
> 
> Probably more than you wanted to know.


 
Exactly what I wanted to know!!:wow: Thank you for that. 

I am getting into collecting folders and the two that I have...are these two steels. Reason for my question.


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## Outdoors Fanatic

Greyhound said:


> Not sure which is considered better. Here is benchmades site that describes both:
> 
> http://www.benchmade.com/about_knives/our_blades.asp#Blade_Steels
> 
> What is your opinion?


Most high-end manufacturers like Benchmade and Spyderco no longer make knives in 440C, they are all using 154CM or newer/better steels. CPM-S30V, VG10 and D2 seem to be the 'standard steels' in high-end production knives these days... 

If you find any U.S made Benchmade in 440C steel, that's discontinued so you might want to get the new version instead.


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## AMRaider

Without repeating too much of what has already been said, 440C is older than 154CM. Both are good steels when heat treated properly. In a nutshell, 154CM is 440C that has been modified for better hot hardness by adding 4% Molybdenum. Crucible now makes 154CM using their particle metallurgy process. If you google for CPM-154CM or crucible you can find out more. Generally, CPM steels are cleaner and more uniform in their structure, which usually results in a slight increase in toughness due to decreased internal stress. Cheers.


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## Monocrom

Greyhound said:


> What is your opinion?


 
154CM has no advantages over 440C when it comes to using the blade. No advantages in terms of price either. But 154CM is a bit less rust-resistant than 440C. Especially if you prefer carrying a knife close to your body. Nothing like coming home from an 8-hour shift, only to find little rust spots on the blade of the one-hander that was clipped inside your belt. 

The spots buff out, but it's the same situation the very next day. 440C doesn't have that problem.


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## HoopleHead

i thought 154CM had much better lateral prying strength than 440C?


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## Monocrom

HoopleHead said:


> i thought 154CM had much better lateral prying strength than 440C?


 
Honestly, no clue about that. I prefer not to pry with a knife.


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## guyg

I have Benchmade Griptillian in both 440c and 154cm. There is virtually no difference in actual perfomance.


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## NeonLights

guyg said:


> I have Benchmade Griptillian in both 440c and 154cm. There is virtually no difference in actual perfomance.


That has been my experience as well, I have two BM Mini Grips, one in each of the steels being talked about. I've seen no difference in real world performance between the two.


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## lightinsky

154cm is superior to 440. Just wondering why some of you use your knives for prying. I thought knives are for cutting. I use a crow bar for that. lol


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## HoopleHead

lightinsky said:


> 154cm is superior to 440. Just wondering why some of you use your knives for prying. I thought knives are for cutting. I use a crow bar for that. lol


 

its nice to have a prying option with your knife, like the PryMate or Razel. :naughty: of course a specialized tool is better, but...


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## Monocrom

lightinsky said:


> 154cm is superior to 440.


 
How so?

Which criteria are you going by?

I'll agree that 154CM is better than 440A, but not 440C.


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## NA8

guyg said:


> I have Benchmade Griptillian in both 440c and 154cm. There is virtually no difference in actual perfomance.



Yeah, I've got a Spyderco Endura in ATS-55, yet another production stainless steel. Works fine for me, though Spyderco switched to VG-10. Been EDC for years now.


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## Bullwinkle

Both Steels make great blade steels. The advantages of 154cm over 440c are very slim that I wouldn't use that as the criteria for choosing one knife over the other. Now CPM 154cm and other engineered steel s30v, bg 42, and others are a different story. I have many stock and custom knives made out of the same material and both have held up well


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## mudman cj

So how do S30V, 440v and ZDP 189 compare in rust resistance to 154CM and 440C?


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## mossyoak

zdp will rust up pretty easy thats why spydie laminates zdp189 between two layers of 440c in alot of their knives.


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## tussery

S30V has rusted first in the real world for me. 154CM has held up a little better. I do work along the gulf coast and spend alot of time on the water and sometimes get soaked with salt water, so my knives see a little more that some people.


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## Gary123

Couple good sites on blade steels.

http://www.warrenknives.com/blade steels.htm

http://cutleryscience.com/reviews/blade_materials.html


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## Burgess

Thank you to *everybody* for this great information.

:twothumbs
_


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## adamlau

As I stated in another post: S90V and M4 are the blade steels to look for in a folder. A little bit exotic, kinda exclusive and if the heat treat is within spec, the blade steels to beat. Next up are ZDP-189, followed by S30V and M2. 440A/C/V will cut just as well for most users, but we are not most users are we? We all want the good stuff and will pay a slight premium for just that, right  ? I know I would and I do!


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## Monocrom

adamlau said:


> As I stated in another post: S90V and M4 are the blade steels to look for in a folder. A little bit exotic, kinda exclusive and if the heat treat is within spec, the blade steels to beat. Next up are ZDP-189, followed by S30V and M2. 440A/C/V will cut just as well for most users, but we are not most users are we? We all want the good stuff and will pay a slight premium for just that, right  ? I know I would and I do!


 
Good stuff??

440C will easily keep up with many of the exotics out there. I've heard some custom knifemakers say that they would still be using 440C, but their customers insist on going with the modern-day exotics; and they are indeed willing to pay more for the "good stuff." What's a custom knifemaker supposed to do, turn down a sale? Only encountered one individual who was that arrogent. Not even sure if he's still making knives.

Nothing wrong with going for the exotics. But I honestly have yet to encounter something that significantly outperforms a properly heat-treated 440C blade. It might be a plain Jane, but a bit of make-up and the right dress; and you've got a real head-turner.


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## Outdoors Fanatic

Monocrom said:


> Good stuff??
> 
> 440C will easily keep up with many of the exotics out there. I've heard some custom knifemakers say that they would still be using 440C, but their customers insist on going with the modern-day exotics; and they are indeed willing to pay more for the "good stuff." What's a custom knifemaker supposed to do, turn down a sale? Only encountered one individual who was that arrogent. Not even sure if he's still making knives.
> 
> Nothing wrong with going for the exotics. But I honestly have yet to encounter something that significantly outperforms a properly heat-treated 440C blade. It might be a plain Jane, but a bit of make-up and the right dress; and you've got a real head-turner.





> 440C will easily keep up with many of the exotics out there.



Not in edge retention it will not! 440C is a joke in edge holding compared to D2 and S30V. Even VG-10 beat it hands down. And then when compared to ZDP-189, CPM-M4 and S90V the difference is simply brutal.

Many custom knifemakers still preach by 440C simply because it's a pretty easy steel to work with, and it takes the BEST finish among all stainless steels hands down.

So if you want a very pretty blade that has excellent stain resistance but not so great toughness and egde retention, 440C is the way to go. If you want a very tough blade which takes a finer edge and holds it for longer but it doesn't resist rust so well, then plain carbon or tool steel is your choice. Wonder why most bushcraft/wilderness blades are made with High-Carbon steel and not stainless steels?


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## Monocrom

Outdoors Fanatic said:


> Wonder why most bushcraft/wilderness blades are made with High-Carbon steel and not stainless steels?


 
I'm thinking it has to do with the fact that native Bushmen are often found in more underdeveloped parts of the world. The stainless steels they have access to is the cheap stuff. In comparison, even the lesser carbon steels will put the lesser stainless steels to shame. 

As for edge retention, the other steels that you mentioned are certainly better than 440C. But my experience is that they are not _that _much beter. But some of the exotics are certainly a bit better at attracting rust. Look at ZDP-189. As mossyoak pointed out, Sal has to sandwich this exotic in between 440C because it'll rust so easily. 

I'm happy to trade off just a bit of edge retention to get a blade that's very rust-resistant. As for edge retention, that's what carbon steels are for. 

But as far as D2 goes, oh yeah it's got extremely good edge retention over 440C, and practically over everything else out there too.... And you need the patience of a Saint in order to sharpen a dull D2 blade. That, or access to some laser-sharpening equipment.


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## adamlau

Do any of us longtime users really worry about rust? Pre and post use maintenance is the key! Swipes with mineral oil for food grade applications and Ren Wax/TUF-CLOTH for all other situations have kept even my high carbon blades rust free. Or induce a patina. Reduce your worries! A dull D2 blade is easily reworked across a Sharpmaker with diamond triangles, or a belt sander and finished across black and green  .


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## Outdoors Fanatic

adamlau said:


> Do any of us longtime users really worry about rust? Pre and post use maintenance is the key! Swipes with mineral oil for food grade applications and Ren Wax/TUF-CLOTH for all other situations have kept even my high carbon blades rust free. Or induce a patina. Reduce your worries! A dull D2 blade is easily reworked across a Sharpmaker with diamond triangles, or a belt sander and finished across black and green  .


Very well said! a Harbor Freight sander is 40 bucks and works better and faster than any expensiove sharpening system in the market, bar none. There is no excuse for letting a blade go dull.

And yes, mineral oil when storing your blade, again, no excuses for rust.


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## Monocrom

Outdoors Fanatic said:


> Very well said! a Harbor Freight sander is 40 bucks and works better and faster than any expensiove sharpening system in the market, bar none. There is no excuse for letting a blade go dull.
> 
> And yes, mineral oil when storing your blade, again, no excuses for rust.


 
I'm half tempted to get a dremel tool and go to town on my Bob Dozier K-4 model.... But it's still hair-popping sharp, and I'm only half tempted. 

Yeah, a nice thin coating of oil on the entire blade is a must before storing, at least with carbon steel and D2.


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## Outdoors Fanatic

Monocrom said:


> I'm half tempted to get a dremel tool and go to town on my Bob Dozier K-4 model.... But it's still hair-popping sharp, and I'm only half tempted.
> 
> Yeah, a nice thin coating of oil on the entire blade is a must before storing, at least with carbon steel and D2.


Don't try that with a Dremel. Use the right tool for the job, a belt-sander is the way to go. Check this out:

http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/Displayitem.taf?itemnumber=2485


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## Monocrom

Outdoors Fanatic said:


> Don't try that with a Dremel. Use the right tool for the job, a belt-sander is the way to go. Check this out:
> 
> http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/Displayitem.taf?itemnumber=2485


 
Hey, that looks sweet. I appreciate the link. :thanks:


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## guyg

Ditto's on keeping knife clean. I've never had a knife rust. FWIW the best blade by far is my Sebenza in BG42. I only have to sharpen it 4 times a year.


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## jzmtl

mossyoak said:


> zdp will rust up pretty easy thats why spydie laminates zdp189 between two layers of 440c in alot of their knives.



I think it was mentioned that the real reason is that they can't punch thicker zdp stocks in golden facility, so that's why they have laminated zdp from golden while solid zdp from seki city.


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## Outdoors Fanatic

jzmtl said:


> I think it was mentioned that the real reason is that they can't punch thicker zdp stocks in golden facility, so that's why they have laminated zdp from golden while solid zdp from seki city.



Am I the only only who thinks that something is wrong here? I've never seen a single Golden-made Spydie using Japanese steel. Nor have I ever seen a laminate blade using ZDP-189. I've seen VG-10 laminates from Fallkniven (which is made in Japan as well) but never a single Spyderco with such blade composition. Neither from Seki nor from Golden. And BTW, some of these super-hard steels are made using composite blade technique by sandwiching different steels not because of rusting issues, but only because it gives greater strength. Stainless steels are brittle, especially these ubber hard and high wear resistant exotic stainless...

They don't have ZDP stocks in the Colorado facility simply because, apparently, the Japanese just won't export them...


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## m16a

Funny, the more I get into knives, the more I think.. Why oh Why didn't I buy a D2 grippy from cabelas??? Oh right, no $80 to do so..

Ah well, its still a good blade with a good steel!:twothumbs


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## jzmtl

Outdoors Fanatic said:


> Am I the only only who thinks that something is wrong here? I've never seen a single Golden-made Spydie using Japanese steel. Nor have I ever seen a laminate blade using ZDP-189. I've seen VG-10 laminates from Fallkniven (which is made in Japan as well) but never a single Spyderco with such blade composition. Neither from Seki nor from Golden. And BTW, some of these super-hard steels are made using composite blade technique by sandwiching different steels not because of rusting issues, but only because it gives greater strength. Stainless steels are brittle, especially these ubber hard and high wear resistant exotic stainless...
> 
> They don't have ZDP stocks in the Colorado facility simply because, apparently, the Japanese just won't export them...




I could've swore I read that on spyderco forum, was said by one of the staff as a matter of fact. :shrug:


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## OCDGearhead

Outdoors Fanatic said:


> Not in edge retention it will not! 440C is a joke in edge holding compared to D2 and S30V. Even VG-10 beat it hands down. And then when compared to ZDP-189, CPM-M4 and S90V the difference is simply brutal.
> 
> Many custom knifemakers still preach by 440C simply because it's a pretty easy steel to work with, and it takes the BEST finish among all stainless steels hands down.
> 
> So if you want a very pretty blade that has excellent stain resistance but not so great toughness and egde retention, 440C is the way to go. If you want a very tough blade which takes a finer edge and holds it for longer but it doesn't resist rust so well, then plain carbon or tool steel is your choice. Wonder why most bushcraft/wilderness blades are made with High-Carbon steel and not stainless steels?


 

Good post. I have all of these steels in various knives, Bark River, Mcusta, Sekicut, Benchmade, Shun & others.

There is a big difference in edge holding stepping down to 440c. At best is is a couple to several points lower on the Rockwell scale. I do not buy 440c any longer, there are plenty of better alternatives for a discriminating buyer.


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## Monocrom

OCDGearhead said:


> Good post. I have all of these steels in various knives, Bark River, Mcusta, Sekicut, Benchmade, Shun & others.
> 
> There is a big difference in edge holding stepping down to 440c. At best is is a couple to several points lower on the Rockwell scale. I do not buy 440c any longer, there are plenty of better alternatives for a discriminating buyer.


 
I went the route of being a "discriminating buyer."

After awhile, I decided I'd rather have a stainless steel that was truly stainless and didn't require specialized equipment to keep the blade sharp.

Besides, I prefer beer and Doritos instead of wine and fine cheese. 

(Still, being from Russia; I know where to get quality caviar at potato chip prices).


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## Outdoors Fanatic

Monocrom said:


> I went the route of being a "discriminating buyer."
> 
> After awhile, I decided I'd rather have a stainless steel that was truly stainless and didn't require specialized equipment to keep the blade sharp.
> 
> Besides, I prefer beer and Doritos instead of wine and fine cheese.
> 
> (Still, being from Russia; I know where to get quality caviar at potato chip prices).


I think we either don't live in the same world or you have never actually used a modern stainless steel. VG-10 is a bliss to work with, it takes a mean edge, holds it and is pretty darn easy to sharpen. It is also 100% rust free. Specialized equipment? Common ceramic rods or croc sticks make quick short work of VG-10, 154CM or S30V, no problems there. I can say the same about INFI, it is the easiest steel to keep and maintain I've ever used.

440C is WWII old technology, I don't want that in my knives. If it's too soft, the egde ain't worth a crap, if it's adequately hard it's brittle as glass. Great steel for presentation knives, but I don't want that in my hard use knives nor in my high-end folders.


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## Monocrom

Outdoors Fanatic said:


> I think we either don't live in the same world or you have never actually used a modern stainless steel. VG-10 is a bliss to work with, it takes a mean edge, holds it and is pretty darn easy to sharpen. It is also 100% rust free. Specialized equipment? Common ceramic rods or croc sticks make quick short work of VG-10, 154CM or S30V, no problems there. I can say the same about INFI, it is the easiest steel to keep and maintain I've ever used.
> 
> 440C is WWII old technology, I don't want that in my knives. If it's too soft, the egde ain't worth a crap, if it's adequately hard it's brittle as glass. Great steel for presentation knives, but I don't want that in my hard use knives nor in my high-end folders.


 
A few years ago, I'd save up my money to buy the latest exotics. Must admit, I *do *like VG-10. The others were a disappointment in one form or another. True, ceramic and diamond rods work for resharpening. But I found that the ceramics took too long. And some collectors have a profound hatred for diamond rods and sharpening stones. (Some feel they take off too much metal from the cutting edge). 

When it comes to being a "discriminating buyer," been there; done that. 

You're right. 440C is old. But that also means it's time-proven. Hell, Jeeps date back to WWII as well. People still buy the same basic Jeep design because it's time-proven. Certainly far from perfect, but still dependable enough that folks rely on it.

Check out the post George left in his 2009 CPF Knife thread. A certain blade steel took on the job of cutting through a moose, and did quite well at it.


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## RA40

To throw this in:

Consider that one also has to factor in bevel design-angles, edge bevel, grit used when sharpening the edge bevel, thickness...heat treat. This is left out in most steel discussions. 

Make up a handful of knives with near same build tolerances. All steels heat treated to their prospective working hardness levels, then compare. Start cutting 1" hemp rope you may well find the 440-C gave way at X cuts and D2 or steel XXX went so many cuts. It could be a slight margin or more. This all changes the moment you sharpen it since it will change the dynamics of the edge. So all of what steel X, Y can do has too many variables involved to simply define performance. In lab testing yes, real world use...good luck. 

This is like saying car X has so much horsepower and is "better" over car Y, neglecting car weight, gearing....


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## NA8

Bark River came out with a stainless steel version of their popular Bravo-1 (normally A2 steel). The steel they used was CPM-154, a powdered metal version of 154cm. The sales pitch on this website discusses the virtues of the powdered version and has a couple of micro-structure pictures comparing the two steels. Unfortunately this baby is a bit more than I'd want to pay. Not what I'd post in the Good Deals forum. Mostly for big fans, collectors, etc. 

http://www.knivesshipfree.com/Bark-...Canvas-Micarta-Matte-Finish/product_info.html


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## NoFair

Monocrom said:


> As for edge retention, the other steels that you mentioned are certainly better than 440C. But my experience is that they are not _that _much beter. But some of the exotics are certainly a bit better at attracting rust. Look at ZDP-189. As mossyoak pointed out, Sal has to sandwich this exotic in between 440C because it'll rust so easily.
> 
> But as far as D2 goes, oh yeah it's got extremely good edge retention over 440C, and practically over everything else out there too.... And you need the patience of a Saint in order to sharpen a dull D2 blade. That, or access to some laser-sharpening equipment.


 
ZDP-189 doesn't have to be laminated, but laminated is cheaper and easier to work with. Some Spydercos have solid ZDP blades; CF Stretch, ZDP Endura and Delica. 

I EDC a ZDP Stretch and there is no rusting and it stays sharp for ages. A bit of a ***** to sharpen though. 

D2 is easy compared to ZDP:nana:

For most users all the higher end steels will perform very well. If one is inexperienced with sharpening and don't have a good sharpening kit some of the higher end steels are a nightmare to sharpen.

There are several reasons to use carbon steel in outdoor fixed blades; cheaper, better toughness, smaller carbides and tradition. 
I like A2 in my fixed blades, but 52-100 and several other carbon steels are very good. AFAIK there aren't any stainless steels out there that will beat good carbon steel in performance. The only advantage they have is ease of maintenance

That said I like stainless in my folders since they are harder to clean.

Sverre


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## tiktok 22

Got a Benchmade minigrip in 440C and I think it sharpens easier than S30V. I have never seen either rust but wouldn't think twice about trusting it as my only knife...


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## guyg

I am a discriminating buyer. I would preferre that all of my knives are BG42. But since that isnt going to happen, I can sharpen. Of my knives, BG42 takes the most time to sharpen and Bucks 420hc is the easiest. Everything else is a stroke or two of being the same.


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