# How are the Seiko "military" automatics?



## Any Cal. (Jan 1, 2007)

That is the question. I like the design, but worry about the quality at the price I am seeing them on fleabay. I had a Seiko Kinetic that I liked a lot, and wonder if the movement is similiar? Thanks for all the help. Also, in a similiar price range are the County Comm marathon tritium watches. Are these any good? Thanks.


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## Flying Turtle (Jan 1, 2007)

I don't think there is any similarity in the movements. The automatics have mechanical movements with a mainspring that is wound by movement of the watch as you move. In the kinetic Seikos body movement charges a battery which drives a quartz type watch movement.

Geoff


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## BF Hammer (Jan 1, 2007)

The model number of some watches that you are looking at would be helpful, since there are many different "military" style Seiko's on the market at any time.

An automatic movement implies spring-powered mechanical movement. The lower end Seiko automatic movement of choice is cal 7S26/7S36. It has a good reputation for durability and is used in their workhorse diver watches also.

Not really an apples-oranges comparison with a Kinetic movement since the Kinetic is really an electric-powered quartz movement that uses a moving rotor to charge a capacitor for energy storage. Quartz watches will usually always be much more accurate than a lower-end mechanical movement. Quartz watches typically gain/lose around 10 seconds per month, where the 7S26 automatic movement can gain or lose 30 seconds per DAY and be working within it's specifications. That particular Seiko movement also cannot be hand-wound at the crown, nor does the movement "hack" (second hand stops when the crown is in the time-setting position).

I won't try to discourage you from trying out the mechanical watch movement but you should be informed what you are buying, or else you might be unpleasantly surprised. Stick to a quartz watch if you have an aversion to wearing your watch daily (to keep it wound, the spring unwinds in about 31 hours) or setting it every week or 2 to keep it running within a minute of correct time.

Truth be told, I wear an inexpensive Seiko "5" automatic watch daily for my job. It takes a minor beating, but is holding up strong after 2 years. This particular watch was gaining 20 seconds per day at the time I bought it, but I moved the regulator inside and have it at -6 seconds per day now. That's about as good as I will ever expect something that isn't a certified COSC chronometer to work.


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## Any Cal. (Jan 1, 2007)

Thanks for the replies. S/N is SNK805K2. I would have a hard time with a 30 sec per day difference. Would that watch have a regulator that would be adjustable? Is that something a mechanical person could do on their own, or would it require a shop to do it? Any other lines/movements to look at? The durability would probably be primary, including temp extremes, but I have never been in the habit of setting a watch once a week. Also, what do I need to look for in order to be able to wind the watch manually?
Thank you both for the excellent information.


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## Flying Turtle (Jan 1, 2007)

I wear a cheapo Russian Vostok automatic daily. It has been fine for a few years now. Accuracy is about like the auto Seikos (+ or - 20 sec/day). This one is windable. I found this in a local store, but that was unusual. Lots of places to get them online.

Geoff


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## leukos (Jan 1, 2007)

I think you would be happier with a Marathon tritium watch.


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## bjn70 (Jan 1, 2007)

The Seiko mechanical movements are pretty durable, and the Seiko 5 has the same movement as their more expensive dive watches have.

Mechanical watches are not as accurate as quartz watches. An average Seiko mechanical might be 30 sec. off per day, but it can be adjusted to be much more accurate. A do-it-yourselfer with a tool to open the back of the watch can adjust it himself, but it is real touchy and would have to be a trial and error adjustment. The other thing about mechanical watches is that you have to wear them every day or they will run down. You can't wear it on Friday, then pick it up on Monday to start wearing it again because it will run down over the weekend.


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## Any Cal. (Jan 2, 2007)

Guess I will have to look into the Seiko 5 as well. Thanks for the input so far.


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## Flying Turtle (Jan 2, 2007)

The physical position of many automatic watches has an effect on their accuracy. I've found with my Vostok that if I park it in a crown-up position at night it will slow down some and negate some of the gain that occurs while wearing during the day. Laying it down flat seems to speed it up.

Geoff


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## BF Hammer (Jan 2, 2007)

Any Cal. said:


> Thanks for the replies. S/N is SNK805K2. I would have a hard time with a 30 sec per day difference. Would that watch have a regulator that would be adjustable? Is that something a mechanical person could do on their own, or would it require a shop to do it? Any other lines/movements to look at? The durability would probably be primary, including temp extremes, but I have never been in the habit of setting a watch once a week. Also, what do I need to look for in order to be able to wind the watch manually?
> Thank you both for the excellent information.



That's a nice-looking Seiko watch. I have the fully-luminous dial version (SNK811K) myself.

Honestly, if you expect to set your watch only during the shift of daylight savings time twice a year, then stay away from a mechanical watch. Get a quartz movement. It would take a lot of trial and error adjustment (and regulation in a watch movement is extremely touchy work) and most people are satisfied once they get the accuracy to plus or minus 10 seconds per day.

A quick search on ebay with "seiko military quartz" yielded model #SGD453P1. Not bad looking.

The Marathon field model you originally mentioned is a tough watch, but kind of designed to be beaten and disposed of. The crystal is plastic, and the case is a composite nylon. Not very water resistant either. I think the Maraglo version (not self-luminous, needs light to charge the glow) is a better deal at $75. It also is small at about 35mm, and a 16mm wide lug width. It can only take 16mm wide one-piece military style straps.


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## bjn70 (Jan 2, 2007)

BTW, I have a Seiko SNK805 on sale on pmwf.com right now. And I'm wearing a Seiko SKXA47, called the "White Knight". The styling is quite a bit different between these 2, but the movements inside are the same.


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## Any Cal. (Jan 3, 2007)

bjn70, that is a nice looking watch. Thanks all again. The problem is that you are starting to whet my interest in these watches. From the replies it seems that this particular movement is much like an MSR Whisperlite. Rugged, Reliable, but with quirks that are known and can be dealt with. Is an automatic action always a series of compromises, ie. durable, accurate, cheap... pick any two? Is there a price point where you are paying for better movement in a less expensive case? Are you always trading one strong point for another? I guess this is a long winded way of saying "Do I gain anything by tossing another couple hundred bucks at the watch?" Thanks again for all the education.


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## bjn70 (Jan 4, 2007)

I bought one watch off of the sales forum here, then got hooked and ended up with quite a few, now I'm trying to sell a few to get back to a manageable level.

First, if you get into watches you have to buy them from the internet, from other enthusiasts, maybe from ebay, but not from watch stores. The markup in stores is sickening.

Second, a mechanical movement will never match a quartz movement in accuracy. But the mechanical movement is a lot more interesting to watch enthusiasts. So accuracy vs. interesting is a tradeoff.

Some real crude guidelines- Seiko/Citizen/Orient mechanical watches can fun from $50 to $150. They have good movements but aren't real accurate, but they can be improved a little bit with careful regulation. Common Swiss movements, such as the ETA 2824 that is used in a LOT of watches, are durable and can be pretty accurate. The ETA 2824 can be found in watches down to about $150 and up to $1000 or more. Above that you get into the real expensive brands like Rolex, Omega, etc. There is not evidence that a Seiko is more or less durable than a 2824, although there are legends that servicemen brought Seikos back from Vietnam and they are still running.

I have Seikos and I have other watches with the 2824 movement. I'm happy to wear either of them, but I seldom wear a watch for more than 7 days so accuracy isn't a high priority.

Nothing wrong with a Seiko diver for $150 or less, but if you think you might be disappointed with the accuracy then you would probably have to go for almost twice that and get something with the 2824, or just give up and get a good quartz.


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## Any Cal. (Jan 4, 2007)

Got it. Internet search coming up. Thanks.


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## cy (Jan 4, 2007)

get a Marathon TSAR! 

much better bang for the $$$
not the cheapest, but far from most expensive...

prefer TSAR over my submariner, so that's lives on my wrist.


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## leukos (Jan 4, 2007)

BF Hammer said:


> Truth be told, I wear an inexpensive Seiko "5" automatic watch daily for my job. It takes a minor beating, but is holding up strong after 2 years. This particular watch was gaining 20 seconds per day at the time I bought it, but I moved the regulator inside and have it at -6 seconds per day now.


 
BF Hammer,
I have a Seiko 5 that is my work watch as well, and I can see the + and - for the regulator through the glass case back, but I don't know what I actually move to adjust it. Can you give more details? Many thanks.


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## fore (Jan 4, 2007)

I've had both of the watches you mentioned. I think it depends on what you're looking for.

As others have said the Seiko 7s26 movements are very reliable, but not the most accurate. Compared to the Marathon field watch, the military style Seiko you mentioned is better in terms of 'quality.' I had the same one except with a black dial and there is absolutely no comparison between the two in terms of fit and finish. That said, between the two I preferred the Marathon. It won't win any beauty contests, but it's so light you won't feel it on your wrist, it's accurate and the tritium dial is easy to read in any light. Good luck in your search.


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## cy (Jan 4, 2007)

Fore, my 13 year old boy broke the marathon field watch winding stem. innards still works. He's pretty ruff on watches, has also broken DW5600 G-shock.


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## fore (Jan 4, 2007)

Sorry to hear that cy, I can't remember how many Casios I've dusted and one was a rubberized G-Shock. The watch you bought was the Navigator though right? Between the navigator and the field watch, I liked the field watch for the weight even though the navigator looked better. If there was a thin Ti watch with the Marathon H3 dial and a sapphire crystal I'd be happy.


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## Any Cal. (Jan 4, 2007)

Good info. I spent 3 hours last night learning about watches. I am thinking I may have to get an automatic and the little PMWF watch kit. It will give me a project and the opportunity to trade dials/hands later if I choose to, as well as being able to fool with the regulator.


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## cave dave (Jan 4, 2007)

*Warning! Warning! Beware all ye who enter here!*
Watches are as bad as flashlights. You join a forum to look up info on the L1P your brother gave you and before you know it you own a U2, HDS EDC, and every light Fenix has ever made, and there is no money in your wallet. 

I started to look for a new watch a month ago. Well I forgot to stop after I found one. I think I've bought six in the last month. There are so many cool watches out there. So don't rush into a purchase. Or stop researching as soon as you hit the pay button.

Some people just love mechanicals, they talk about them having a soul and a heart. But they are a kind pain to deal with. I have a like new Seiko 5 that will be for sale soon. To be replaced by the blue version of the one you are interested in, or maybe Citizens version which is a little nicer and more $.

If you like the styling of the one you mentioned you might check out this quartz Citizen Eco drive (Solar powered). Most of the forums think Eco dive is superior to Kinetic. No moving parts and you don't have to wear it to charge it.





I got mine from Amazon/ Princeton watches for $81
http://www.princetonwatches.com/shop/BM8180-03E.asp

If you want to read some very angry people postings type "Automatic vs Quartz" into Google. :touche:Yikes, people get very passionate about their hobby. And yes the U2 is the best damn flashlight ever made, Fenix has no Soul! Ha, Ha, just kidding. 

Check out these Links:
Quartz is better argument:
http://tinyurl.com/vkwhg

Info on the Seiko Movement:
http://www.thepurists.com/watch/features/8ohms/7s26/


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## BF Hammer (Jan 4, 2007)

leukos said:


> BF Hammer,
> I have a Seiko 5 that is my work watch as well, and I can see the + and - for the regulator through the glass case back, but I don't know what I actually move to adjust it. Can you give more details? Many thanks.



Right next to the + and - (with some rule markings in between) is the regulator. It is a wheel with a lever sticking out on one end and a pointer at the opposite end that points to the rule markings between the + and -.

After openning the back with the appropriate caseback tool, you use a non-ferrous tool to move the lever. When you move the lever so the pointer at the other end moves to the +, you are speeding up the timing, slowing down in the other direction. A toothpick works OK for the tool (a plastic toothpick from a Swiss Army knife is great) and this adjustment is extremely touchy. Think taps and bumps. I adjusted mine over the course of 10 days, carefully logging the gain or loss of time from the previous day against a reference clock (my digital radio-controlled alarm clock). I only opened the watch once per day, and at about the same time each day.

There is another lever at about a 90 degree angle from the adjuster lever on the same axis. DO NOT touch this lever, you will put the balance of the watch out of sync and it will take a trained watch repairer to fix it. It can be differentiated because it is attached to part that is directly below the part you move. It's the one sticking out straight up in my photo.






(photo is subject to being removed from my photo host after a month)


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## leukos (Jan 5, 2007)

:rock:Thanks for the pic, BF!


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