# My new Lathe :)



## cmacclel

Well I'll be ordering it tomorrow I believe 

Now to start liquidating toys to help pay for it 








Well I canned the Haas lathe because of to many people that had them said the Tail stocks where useless as they where not repeatable. I read a few people had issues with them and the night before I was going to order the TL-1 pictured above a new poster posted the problems he was having with the tailstock so that ended that.

I would up with the ProtoTrak 1630sx which I really like the programming interface much better than the Haas. It's on order and should be shipping out Dec 11th


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## white light

:naughty: Holy s?^t. :twothumbs


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## 04orgZx6r




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## wquiles

Man, that looks really cool :twothumbs

Any linkage to the model/specs?

Your current "almost-new" lathe is only a year or two old, right? What are you looking for in the new lathe? What is your current lathe lacking?

Will


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## Mirage_Man

cmacclel said:


> Well I'll be ordering it tomorrow I believe
> 
> Now to start liquidating toys to help pay for it



Oh I see how it is. Talk about one upmanship!  
Congrats Dude. I wish I could have swung something like that. What's the delivery time like? Right away, or do you have to wait awhile?


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## Mirage_Man

wquiles said:


> What is your current lathe lacking?



CNC.


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## cmacclel

I was told I could have one in 2 weeks.

No phase converter.....this baby will run from 240v 40 amp which is a definite plus 

One other option I became aware of tonight is for $800 more the software has spindle positioning which accurately rotates the spindle as small as 0.1 degree increments  This would make patterning body's a breeze 

Mac


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## mossyoak

if you dont mind me asking. how much would something like that set one back?


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## cmacclel

mossyoak said:


> if you dont mind me asking. how much would something like that set one back?


 
Base Price $23,999
Tailstock $1,795
Coolant setup $895
Chuck $1000
Toolpost $300-$1,000 depending on quality
Shipping $1,300

A very big step for me! but with my light work and other daily things I spend all my spare time in the shop. Hopefully with this machine I can get out and spend more time with the family 

Mac


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## LukeA

Mirage_Man said:


> CNC.



Ha! I knew it! I started wondering when I saw the fluid-resistant (IP65?) control computer.


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## mossyoak

cmacclel said:


> Base Price $23,999
> Tailstock $1,795
> Coolant setup $895
> Chuck $1000
> Toolpost $300-$1,000 depending on quality
> Shipping $1,300
> 
> A very big step for me! but with my light work and other daily things I spend all my spare time in the shop. Hopefully with this machine I can get out and spend more time with the family
> 
> Mac



awesome man, awesome. that is one bad *** piece of tool


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## Nitroz

Mac's artwork will step up to a whole new level!

We will all be watching with baited breath.:bow:


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## ICUDoc

The stuff you make already is a byword at CPF. With this it might get even better- hard to believe. But spending more time with the family? More power to your arm, I say.... enjoy.


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## precisionworks

A friend has the exact same machine and loves it:thumbsup:

Like you, he spent about $30k. IIRC, he used their equipment leasing option, which can make a lot of sense. 

That machine should handle Ti like it's butter, if you ever go that direction.


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## PEU

congrats!

As an owner of a small CNC lathe (smaller than this one for sure) I would recomend you to have some kind of automatic toolchanger, 4 or 6 positions would make a big difference over manually changing tools for every operation, I wish I had a toolchanger in mine 


Pablo


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## Cosmo7809

cmacclel said:


> Well I'll be ordering it tomorrow I believe
> 
> Now to start liquidating toys to help pay for it



HOLY POOP


Seriously... nice and have fun.


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## cmacclel

PEU said:


> congrats!
> 
> As an owner of a small CNC lathe (smaller than this one for sure) I would recomend you to have some kind of automatic toolchanger, 4 or 6 positions would make a big difference over manually changing tools for every operation, I wish I had a toolchanger in mine
> 
> 
> Pablo


 
$3,200 option

Mac


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## PEU

an used slant bed lathe can be had there (in the USA) for much less than this one, you ruled out buying used ones?


Pablo


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## precisionworks

I can't speak for Mac, but I've purchased capital equipment for my welding/machine shop business, and new makes a lot of sense on the higher dollar items. All the small & inexpensive things are eBay purchased (usually $500 and under). But something like my portable welding equipment, which was over $6k, was easier to finance buying new. I didn't look at leasing that, as the payments were only $135/month, but I would look at a lease at a higher dollar amount.

RE: new CNC lathe vs used ... software keeps getting better & easier to use, servos get faster & smaller, etc. And if you check a used Haas with updated electronics & servos, you pay close to new price.


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## cmacclel

PEU said:


> an used slant bed lathe can be had there (in the USA) for much less than this one, you ruled out buying used ones?
> 
> 
> Pablo


 
I have been looking for used ones for 2 months. If they are used and in good condition they are usually only 20% cheaper than new. 

Also all the full slant bed full CNC machines I see have 20-30hp motors which is out of the question for me.

Mac


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## precisionworks

You gotta watch the video

http://www.haascnc.com/news/new_files/LATHE/Toolroom Lathe.wmv


Threading, especially multiples, is where it will pay big returns.

Mac - have you looked at the Haas forum on the Practical Machinist site? Always lots of activity there.


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## cmacclel

precisionworks said:


> You gotta watch the video
> 
> http://www.haascnc.com/news/new_files/LATHE/Toolroom Lathe.wmv
> 
> 
> Threading, especially multiples, is where it will pay big returns.
> 
> Mac - have you looked at the Haas forum on the Practical Machinist site? Always lots of activity there.


 

I have been getting questions answers on the cnczone forum. The thing that kills me is this lathe has a a2-5 spindle nose and I can't seem to even locate one scroll chuck for this. The Haas chuck is $1009 !!

Mac


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## wquiles

precisionworks said:


> You gotta watch the video
> 
> http://www.haascnc.com/news/new_files/LATHE/Toolroom Lathe.wmv



OMG - I watched the video. Now I know what I want for Christmas (well, only if I win the Lottery!)

Will


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## precisionworks

Small Tools Inc has a Bison (Polish made, excellent quality) for $711:

http://www.smalltools.com/product_details.asp?cat_id=49_03&prod_id=130452


J&L Industrial has a slightly better deal, if you order right away -- their price is $651.75. You'll have to order 4 more items (anything they sell, even four allen wrenches) and use code WEB25 to get the discount.


Here's more detailed info from the Bison catalog:

http://www.workholding.com/BISON-UNIVERSAL-3-JAW-SELF-CENTERING-SCROLL-CHUCKS-A1-A2.htm


If you already have a smaller chuck, like a 6" Set True, Bison also makes adapter back plates, P/N 7-874-065, $180 at New England Brass & Tool:

http://brassandtool.com/Backplate-Adaptors.html


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## PEU

precisionworks said:


> You gotta watch the video
> 
> http://www.haascnc.com/news/new_files/LATHE/Toolroom Lathe.wmv
> 
> 
> Threading, especially multiples, is where it will pay big returns.
> 
> Mac - have you looked at the Haas forum on the Practical Machinist site? Always lots of activity there.



Let me add some comments to the video as shows the same workflow I use with my PCbased cnc control (mach3)

I also have a QCTP to speed up tool changes, but every time I change a tool and put it back I have 0.1/0.2mm and sometimes a little more over previous calibration, this is probably due to my not so good QCTP, you may want to check the repetability of the one you will buy.

Its a PITA to have to set tools every time previous to any operation in a CNC lathe. If your QTCP repeats OK, you number/label your toolholders and then over time use the tool wear offsets to do minimum adjustments without touching the code.

The whole video is made using 2 tools and a drill, but usually you need four/five tools, a center drill (conveniently missing in the video) and a drill.
Also you see that the threading tool is calibrated by scratching the surface, what if you need to keep tight tolerances, how deep is your scratch?

And the good side I see you have an interesting space in the tooling table, so you may be able to do some gang tooling.


Pablo


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## PhotonFanatic

Nice, Mac. So I'll stop forwarding those links to used lathes now. 

You gonna quit your day job and start your own business, too? :devil:


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## cmacclel

precisionworks said:


> Small Tools Inc has a Bison (Polish made, excellent quality) for $711:
> 
> http://www.smalltools.com/product_details.asp?cat_id=49_03&prod_id=130452
> 
> 
> J&L Industrial has a slightly better deal, if you order right away -- their price is $651.75. You'll have to order 4 more items (anything they sell, even four allen wrenches) and use code WEB25 to get the discount.
> 
> 
> Here's more detailed info from the Bison catalog:
> 
> http://www.workholding.com/BISON-UNIVERSAL-3-JAW-SELF-CENTERING-SCROLL-CHUCKS-A1-A2.htm
> 
> 
> If you already have a smaller chuck, like a 6" Set True, Bison also makes adapter back plates, P/N 7-874-065, $180 at New England Brass & Tool:
> 
> http://brassandtool.com/Backplate-Adaptors.html


 

Thanks for the Info

The TL-1 is designed for an 8" chuck any larger and it can hit the cross slide. The lathe I might be going after is a demo on the showroom floor in CT which is only 120 miles away from me.

The discount is not much but I'm told the machine has only been run for a couple hours tops for a demo day.

The lathe is equiped with a 8" Korean Samchully chuck which appears to be a good quality chuck but for the $1009 they charge I would much rather get a Bison 6-jaw set tru chuck.

With the Demo I'm paying $285 more than a new one but they are throwing in a extended 6 months warranty and a Dorian CXA toolpost set.

Mac


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## Nitroz

PhotonFanatic said:


> You gonna quit your day job and start your own business, too? :devil:



I think you should quit your day job and put your extreme creativity to work for us and pay that thing off!

I can see it now, the new 18650 light by, "Mac's custom creations", MCC for short. Oh yeah, and made in the USA.:twothumbs

You sir are an artist to watch!


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## LuxLuthor

Whatever was the outcome with the cracked Grissly lathe?

Man this one looks unbelieveable. Very cool.


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## tdurand

I'm in for whatever comes off that beast. You know it.

Very impressive. Very envious. The best of luck in acquiring it.

The Cool Fall has certainly opened up some eyes.

T


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## cmacclel

LuxLuthor said:


> Whatever was the outcome with the cracked Grissly lathe?
> 
> Man this one looks unbelieveable. Very cool.


 
It took 6 months to receive the replacement Grizzly. I appears to have been manufactured in a different plant as my original lathe which seems much better quality. The Gear head is getting louder on the replacement so it's going back. Grizzly agreed to refund my money do to all the troubles.

Mac


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## wquiles

cmacclel said:


> It took 6 months to receive the replacement Grizzly. I appears to have been manufactured in a different plant as my original lathe which seems much better quality. The Gear head is getting louder on the replacement so it's going back. Grizzly agreed to refund my money do to all the troubles.
> 
> Mac



Ouch, sorry to hear about the Grizzly problems. At the time, besides the Grizzly that you got, what other machines did you consider?

Will


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## cmacclel

wquiles said:


> Ouch, sorry to hear about the Grizzly problems. At the time, besides the Grizzly that you got, what other machines did you consider?
> 
> Will


 

None Really..... the Grizzly was the only 12x36 that had a large enough spindle bore for a mag in my price range. 

Mac


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## tino_ale

Hey,

I was looking at the video posted earlier, pretty nice.

It shows how you can start making chips in just a couple of seconds, using "pre-programmed" functions included in the lathe software. Like facing, turning, tapping, drilling etc etc. It shows how you can "record" the operation in order to re-use it in the future.

Well my knowledge in CNC is near-zero. I was wondering if these functions are just "gadgets" to impress newbies or perform very simple operations, OR, is this feature actually going to be the main mean to program and machine flashlights parts?

Are you going to use the lathe this way, or will you program your CNC in a totally different way ("manually writting the code?) ??

Reason I'm asking is because IF you can run a CNC lathe using exclusively these pro-programmed operations, recording them, and then making a run of flashlights parts... well I guess it would mean anyone can operate such a lathe and make some parts without any specific knowledge in CNC languages.

Thanks for the answers.


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## cmacclel

tino_ale said:


> Hey,
> 
> I was looking at the video posted earlier, pretty nice.
> 
> It shows how you can start making chips in just a couple of seconds, using "pre-programmed" functions included in the lathe software. Like facing, turning, tapping, drilling etc etc. It shows how you can "record" the operation in order to re-use it in the future.
> 
> Well my knowledge in CNC is near-zero. I was wondering if these functions are just "gadgets" to impress newbies or perform very simple operations, OR, is this feature actually going to be the main mean to program and machine flashlights parts?
> 
> Are you going to use the lathe this way, or will you program your CNC in a totally different way ("manually writting the code?) ??
> 
> Reason I'm asking is because IF you can run a CNC lathe using exclusively these pro-programmed operations, recording them, and then making a run of flashlights parts... well I guess it would mean anyone can operate such a lathe and make some parts without any specific knowledge in CNC languages.
> 
> Thanks for the answers.


 

I'd say the majority of the machinests know next to nothing about code. The lathe you saw the video off can accept G code or you can use their conversational software which is what you are referring to. Conversational software has been around since the beginning of CNC equipment.

I guess anyone can operate and piece of equipment with the propper training. 

Mac


Updated Post 1 as I canned the Haas Lathe.

Mac


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## modamag

cmacclel said:


> I'd say the majority of the machinists know next to nothing about code.



The opposite is definitely not true. A CAD/CAM programmer must knows his machine very well. Your machine (and boss) will start yelling at you real real soon. 

That's why in the bay area here the programmer is paid almost 2x that of an operator.

Mac,
No Haas 
In the SF Bay Area you can get a decent unit for $20K unlike your neck of the wood :nana:
Now having room to store the toy at >$350/sqft is another thing.


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## tino_ale

cmacclel said:


> I'd say the majority of the machinests know next to nothing about code. The lathe you saw the video off can accept G code or you can use their conversational software which is what you are referring to. Conversational software has been around since the beginning of CNC equipment.
> 
> I guess anyone can operate and piece of equipment with the propper training.
> 
> Mac
> 
> 
> Updated Post with as I canned the Haas Lathe.
> 
> Mac


So, you can make runs of flashlights parts using the conversational software alone, right?

Please excuse my ignorance, but beside learning to use the conversationnal software (which should be quite fast ?) what is left to learn, since machining parameters like feed, speed etc can be found on the internet ?

Sorry for the newb questions, but watching the video I was under the impression that all is so simple that one could deal with this stuff with no instructor and no experience. I could be completely wrong though.


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## cmacclel

modamag said:


> The opposite is definitely not true. A CAD/CAM programmer must knows his machine very well. Your machine (and boss) will start yelling at you real real soon.
> 
> That's why in the bay area here the programmer is paid almost 2x that of an operator.
> 
> Mac,
> No Haas
> In the SF Bay Area you can get a decent unit for $20K unlike your neck of the wood :nana:
> Now having room to store the toy at >$350/sqft is another thing.


 

Nope no Haas. The Haas had the largest footprint of all the machines I was looking at and would not fit into my shop without an addition.

I was all ready to build on an addtional for the Haas but the repeated comments of the horrible tailstock by the lathe owners changed my mind.

Mac


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## cmacclel

tino_ale said:


> So, you can make runs of flashlights parts using the conversational software alone, right?
> 
> Please excuse my ignorance, but beside learning to use the conversationnal software (which should be quite fast ?) what is left to learn, since machining parameters like feed, speed etc can be found on the internet ?
> 
> Sorry for the newb questions, but watching the video I was under the impression that all is so simple that one could deal with this stuff with no instructor and no experience. I could be completely wrong though.


 
If you buy a new Haas they include training 

As for making a run of lights with just the converstional software, yes should not be a problem.

If you have never ran a lathe or machinery before I think it would be highly unlikely for someone with no experience at all to jump in and run any machine safely. You do not want to begin on a $30k cnc machine 


Mac


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## precisionworks

> all is so simple that one could deal with this stuff with no instructor and no experience.


I was fortunate to get a work-study job in the machine shop at college. CNC was in its infancy (in fact, it was called NC for Numerical Control), and the instructions were first coded, then punched into a paper tape. The tape was loaded on a reader, which drove the machine.

I'd ground a tiny slot cutter to fit the "foot" on a Smith & Wesson rear sight. Clamped a .45 slide in the vise, put the tool in the collet, and was about to manually feed in when a newbie instructor said he could do it better & quicker with NC. He proceeded to crash the tool into the slide, which caused me to question his degree of stupidity



> machining parameters like feed, speed etc can be found on the internet ?


Those will get you into the ballpark, but you'll still have to find the fences. It takes a few years full time in a production shop before most people are worth their pay. The internet has yet to make a part for me


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## will

precisionworks said:


> I was fortunate to get a work-study job in the machine shop at college. CNC was in its infancy (in fact, it was called NC for Numerical Control), and the instructions were first coded, then punched into a paper tape. The tape was loaded on a reader, which drove the machine.



Finally - someone else who remembers NC, and paper tape. The shop I learned at was almost all prototype. The owner did not see the need to get into NC for runs of only 5 parts or less. We did have automatic feed on the Bridgeport Milling machines.


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## gadget_lover

tino_ale said:


> So, you can make runs of flashlights parts using the conversational software alone, right?
> 
> Please excuse my ignorance, but beside learning to use the conversationnal software (which should be quite fast ?) what is left to learn, since machining parameters like feed, speed etc can be found on the internet ?




Before you can use the conversational mode, you need to know exactly what path the tool should take. Telling it to cut a groove 1 inch deep by 1/8 inch wide in a 1.25 inch diameter cylinder will probably NOT do what you want, and may break the tool on top of that.

The feeds and speeds are online, but then you have to understand that the speed for a 4 flute end mill is different than for a 2 flute end mill. You also have to learn about why going too slow is bad, and the cost of going too fast. Sometimes you want the extra speed at the expense of the tooling.

I could be wrong, but don't CNC systems still rely on the operator to set up the work, as in clamping, positioning, etc?

A person I know had a real interesting light made with a CNC mill that had a dappled finish. The mill operator did not quite understand why at the time. He has since learned about tool stiffness and rigid work holding.

I will one day get a CNC system. In the mean time, I'm constantly learning bout metal working and why things do (and don't) work.

Daniel


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## tino_ale

Thanks for all the good info


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## precisionworks

> don't CNC systems still rely on the operator to set up the work, as in clamping, positioning, etc?


Yes they do

You have to establish a zero datum point, the X-Y-Z location from which every move is measured. Then figure out the sequence of cuts, etc. CNC never gets tired or bored, which is a big advantage on multiples.


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## wquiles

precisionworks said:


> CNC never gets tired or bored, ...



Or distracted - honey! can you help me with this ... then you come back - what the heck was I supposed to do now again?

or forgetful - what was the target diameter again? did I divided the difference of diameters by 2? oh man - I need to start all over again !!!

or confused - was that diameter for the bored or the unbored host - doooouh !!! - start all over again !!!

or miss a step - did I parted the piece before boring it !!! - start all over again !!!

or etc. 


Will


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## Mirage_Man

wquiles said:


> Or distracted - honey! can you help me with this ... then you come back - what the heck was I supposed to do now again?
> 
> or forgetful - what was the target diameter again? did I divided the difference of diameters by 2? oh man - I need to start all over again !!!
> 
> or confused - was that diameter for the bored or the unbored host - doooouh !!! - start all over again !!!
> 
> or miss a step - did I parted the piece before boring it !!! - start all over again !!!
> 
> or etc.
> 
> 
> Will



Or... 

On while cutting external threads on the last pass you plunge in when you were supposed to roll out. :mecry: There goes 2 hours worth of work in a split second.


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## cmacclel

Mirage_Man said:


> Or...
> 
> On while cutting external threads on the last pass you plunge in when you were supposed to roll out. :mecry: There goes 2 hours worth of work in a split second.


 
I thought I told you not to tell anyone about that 

Mac


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## Mirage_Man

cmacclel said:


> I thought I told you not to tell anyone about that
> 
> Mac



Glad to know I'm not the only one to have done that.


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## Data




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## cmacclel

Data said:


>


 
Shipping on the 11th 

Mac


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## LED Boatguy

Wow! And I thought my Hardinge with a full set of collets was overkill... BTW: if you're doing small stuff, Collets rock!

Congrats.

PS The 3 phase generator thing was no big deal--so long as you had another building to mount it in .

PPS Future conversation: 

You: Look honey, my first part!
Wife: Great. How much did it cost?
You: Um, er, eh, $30,000
Wife: Great
You: Ya but the next part is only gonna cost $15,000 and the one after that $10,000....

That was me a few thousand parts ago.


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## SafetyBob

Mac, add another one to the list besides you and Brian. New to threading and wow what a learning curve!!

OH, I did get the shipping notice that your new lathe should be delivered to my back door next week haha!!

I'm still trying to figure out how to finance a new lathe like Brian's, yours is just a wonderful dream when I go to sleep every night. 

Can't wait to see what you make with that and not that your work isn't already to artist status.......I just am wondering how much better it can be with a CNC machine? I'll be waiting for the pictures!!

Bob E.


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## cmacclel

Well the lathe is on it's way. It shipped out of California late last week so if things go correctly there is a chance it could be in my area late next week. 

The then rigger has to deliver the machine to my garage.

Then the installer needs to come by and level the machine and turn a test part to insure the machine is accurate. It needs to have under a 0.0008 taper in 6" 

Then the saleman has to come by for a half day of training.

Man there is alot of "thens"  It feels like a year has past since the order went in!

Mac


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## Mirage_Man

cmacclel said:


> Man there is alot of "thens"  It feels like a year has past since the order went in!
> 
> Mac



I know exactly how you feel! It'll be well worth the wait though.:thumbsup:


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## wquiles

cmacclel said:


> Well the lathe is on it's way. It shipped out of California late last week so if things go correctly there is a chance it could be in my area late next week.
> 
> The then rigger has to deliver the machine to my garage.
> 
> Then the installer needs to come by and level the machine and turn a test part to insure the machine is accurate. It needs to have under a 0.0008 taper in 6"
> 
> Then the saleman has to come by for a half day of training.
> 
> Man there is alot of "thens"  It feels like a year has past since the order went in!
> 
> Mac



Soon - very soon ... 

Will


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## cmacclel

Well the rigger just called me and said the trucking company will be delivering the machine to him tomorrow early afternoon. He then in is message stated looks like we will catch up after the holidays / new year 

I promptly called him back and asked if it possible to have it delivered before Christmas and he said he may be able to get it here Wednesday early afternoon  Now to go home and scrape all the snow and ice off the driveway 

I'm keeping my fingers crossed!

Mac


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## cmacclel

Hmm Look what arrived this afternoon  The Installer is coming Friday at 8am. More Pics

http://public.fotki.com/cmacclel/trak-1630sx/







Now thats a TailStock


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## Mirage_Man

That's freak'n AWESOME dude! Congrats.


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## saabluster

:bow: Beautiful!!! :bow:


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## csshih

aaaahh impressive :bow:


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## wquiles

Awesome!

At least the machine is home now - Friday will come soon enough 

Will


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## PhotonFanatic

We're running out of adjectives to describe the machine, so let's just say that it looks OK. :devil:

Did the golf club come with it?


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## cmacclel

PhotonFanatic said:


> We're running out of adjectives to describe the machine, so let's just say that it looks OK. :devil:
> 
> Did the golf club come with it?


 

Nope  I scored that for $35 on Ebay... Callaway X460 driver that still sells for $200!

Mac


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## PhotonFanatic

Too bad the Proto Trak wasn't up on eBay as well.


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## cmacclel

PhotonFanatic said:


> Too bad the Proto Trak wasn't up on eBay as well.


 

You aint kidding  There was a few on Ebay over the few months that I was looking but the prices where rediculous, 10 year old machines where selling for $15-17K when a new base model is was $24. These Toolroom style CNC lathes hold there value quite well.

Mac


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## TranquillityBase

"I'll take it"


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## precisionworks

> 10 year old machines where selling for $15-17K


+1

You sometimes find a steal on a mechanically good machine that has a nonworking or obsolete control. Look at the machine below (yes, that's me standing on the table) ... snagged that girl, with almost zero runtime, for just over $100K. That doesn't count cutting in & pouring the floor pit, rigger's charge, overhead crane charge, etc. Even so, a great deal, as you see that model for around $750k most everywhere. *BUT *the controller was older than dirt and bigger than a 1957 Cadillac (the glowing screen at far left is part of it), and it took another $100k to get a new Fanuc bought.



*Lucas 6" Horizontal Boring Mill (table type)
*60" x 144" table. 50 hp spindle has 48" extension & 96" vertical travel.


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## cmacclel

Wow now thats a machine 

Mac


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## StrikerDown

I can hear the wife... But honey I thought you were going to make AAA flashlights! :shakehead

That's cool, I'd like to see that beast running.


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## precisionworks

Mostly, the horizontal boring mill worked on Continuous Miner machines:


*New machine, ready to ship out*




*Same machine in use, under ground. Notice missing paint*





The frames are made from 1" - 3" thick plate, some mild steel, some Abrasion Resistant steel like AR400. After the frames are welded, they are lifted with a pair of overhead cranes & set on the mill table (frames weigh about 60,000#). Then the frame is squared & leveled to the spindle, much as you would on a Bridgeport, but on a larger scale. The frame might stay on the machine for 10-12 days as all the features were machined in.


----------



## McGizmo

Mac,
Your new machine is awesome! Not only can you raise the bar with that machine, you can do some cool stuff to the bar as well!


----------



## Data

That looks nice, congratulations. What is the size of that collet?


----------



## rdh226

cmacclel said:


> Hmm Look what arrived this afternoon  The Installer is coming Friday at 8am.



Now that is drool-worthy.

When's the big lathe-warming party?

-RDH


----------



## ShortArc

Well now that is what I would call a Merry Christmas! 
Cheers.


----------



## TranquillityBase

.


----------



## TranquillityBase

We want video!!!:twothumbs


----------



## cmacclel

TranquillityBase said:


> We want video!!!:twothumbs


 
I'll get some today. Last night I cut my first piece in aluminum with the feedrate at twice of what I would have ran by accident (rough pass feedrate 20 ipm) and the chips where flying  I chucked up a piece of 2" aluminum and cut a 8 degree radius. Basically X start 1", X End 2", Z Start 0, Z End 2". The whole machining process took around 1 minute!

Finish pass was 0.005 at 1500rpm, it came out nice. 






Mac


----------



## cmacclel

Data said:


> That looks nice, congratulations. What is the size of that collet?


 

The lathe shipped with a 3/4 collet witha small piece of 3/4 stock to keep the collet closer lever from moving around.

I mounted up my Bison 8" direct mount 3 jaw chuck yesterday. I got a super deal off ebay less than half price of new ($375) . I really wanted a set tru chuck but they where pretty much double the price when all said and done. Keeping my fingers crossed I put a piece of 1" ground drill rod into the chuck and mounted up the the dial indicator. Taking a deep breath I rotate the chuck and my 0.001 indicator does not move throughout the whole rotation 6" away from the chuck  I'm happy!

Mac


----------



## ShortArc

cmacclel said:


> The lathe shipped with a 3/4 collet witha small piece of 3/4 stock to keep the collet closer lever from moving around.
> 
> I mounted up my Bison 8" direct mount 3 jaw chuck yesterday. I got a super deal off ebay less than half price of new ($375) . I really wanted a set tru chuck but they where pretty much double the price when all said and done. Keeping my fingers crossed I put a piece of 1" ground drill rod into the chuck and mounted up the the dial indicator. Taking a deep breath I rotate the chuck and my 0.001 indicator does not move throughout the whole rotation 6" away from the chuck  I'm happy!
> 
> Mac


 
That is all well and good BUT more importantly, is the shop still in the same state of disarray as it was on Friday?:nana:
Cheers!


----------



## wquiles

cmacclel said:


> The lathe shipped with a 3/4 collet witha small piece of 3/4 stock to keep the collet closer lever from moving around.
> 
> I mounted up my Bison 8" direct mount 3 jaw chuck yesterday. I got a super deal off ebay less than half price of new ($375) . I really wanted a set tru chuck but they where pretty much double the price when all said and done. Keeping my fingers crossed I put a piece of 1" ground drill rod into the chuck and mounted up the the dial indicator. Taking a deep breath I rotate the chuck and my 0.001 indicator does not move throughout the whole rotation 6" away from the chuck  I'm happy!
> 
> Mac



That is awesome MAC - very good accuracy indeed. I get my PM 12x36 tomorrow Monday, so I am also excited about new "toys" for Christmas 

Will


----------



## cmacclel

ShortArc said:


> That is all well and good BUT more importantly, is the shop still in the same state of disarray as it was on Friday?:nana:
> Cheers!


 
Touche...........!!!




























More Pics here
http://public.fotki.com/cmacclel/shop-2/


----------



## ShortArc

Looks Great! Someone has been busy.
+ Plenty of room left in the shop for a Waterjet.
You should probably also install a web cam so your family still knows what you look like in the coming months....


----------



## Anglepoise

WOW !


----------



## Mirage_Man

Anglepoise said:


> WOW !



Ditto!


----------



## 3rdrock

I think you should post a picture of the temperature gauge and send it to wquiles.
https://www.candlepowerforums.com/posts/2734024&postcount=257

:nana::devil:


----------



## wquiles

No kidding - I bet Mac's shop is more comfortable year-around 

Will


----------



## cmacclel

3rdrock said:


> I think you should post a picture of the temperature gauge and send it to wquiles.
> https://www.candlepowerforums.com/posts/2734024&postcount=257
> 
> :nana::devil:


 
62 Degrees today!!! Probably 20 degrees tomorrow  Welcome to New England.

Mac


----------



## cmacclel

wquiles said:


> No kidding - I bet Mac's shop is more comfortable year-around
> 
> Will


 

You have no heat in your shop?? My shop is set to 60 degrees year round.

Mac


----------



## precisionworks

> My shop is set to 60 degrees year round.


+1

In the non-machine & non-tooling areas, there are three items that give a good return on investment.

1) Lighting & brightly painted ceilings & walls. You'll appreciate this more with each passing year. I've worked in some awfully dark shops, and they do nothing to promote accurate work.

2) Insulation. 12" of blown in cellulose were added to 12" of fiberglass batts, and the payback was just over one year.

3) High efficiency central heating & A/C. Much of the USA has high humidity levels, including where I live. In addition to providing comfort, controlling the shop humidity keeps rust from damaging machine tools, tooling, micrometers, etc. If you don't have some form of climate control, you'll spend lots of time keeping the rust at bay.


----------



## cmacclel

Things rust OVERNIGHT here in new england. The day my lathe was delivered I moved out a bench from my shop to the garage that had my small arbor press mounted to it. The next day all the bare metal was rust coated! My garage is all concrete block which makes things worse.

Mac


----------



## Mirage_Man

cmacclel said:


> Things rust OVERNIGHT here in new england. The day my lathe was delivered I moved out a bench from my shop to the garage that had my small arbor press mounted to it. The next day all the bare metal was rust coated! My garage is all concrete block which makes things worse.
> 
> Mac



That's crazy. I'm in FLA 5 miles or so from the coast and have no issues with rust.


----------



## cmacclel

Mirage_Man said:


> That's crazy. I'm in FLA 5 miles or so from the coast and have no issues with rust.


 
I'm 1/4 mile away from the Ocean  Though I doubt that has anything to do with it. It's the fact that at this time of year at night it can get into the 20's then 50"s during the day. Anything metal will sweat and then rust do to the temprature change. 

Brian it's like pulling an ice cold BUD out of the freezer then walking out on a nice humid Floriday day. The can is instantly soaken wet.



Mac


----------



## wquiles

cmacclel said:


> You have no heat in your shop?? My shop is set to 60 degrees year round.
> 
> Mac



My "shop" is the 3rd car garage (the smaller of the two here in this photo, same side as the two windows):





And unfortunately here in Texas the garages are not commonly insulated (specially my two garage doors - no insulation whatsoever), so in the summer I use fans a lot, and in the winter I wear warm clothing plus have one or two small heaters running - not an ideal situation, but I do have some space for the "shop" so I can't complain too much 

Will


----------



## QtrHorse

Will,

I'm sure your wife will not mind you moving everything into one of the extra bedrooms.


----------



## will

cmacclel said:


> I'm 1/4 mile away from the Ocean  Though I doubt that has anything to do with it.
> 
> 
> 
> Mac



Yes it does - The air not only has moisture, but salt as well. The Condo in Florida is 3/4 mile from the ocean. It is amazing what that will do to untreated aluminum and any type of steel. Almost instant rust.


----------



## Alan B

will said:


> Yes it does - The air not only has moisture, but salt as well. The Condo in Florida is 3/4 mile from the ocean. It is amazing what that will do to untreated aluminum and any type of steel. Almost instant rust.


 
Salt nanoparticles are formed when the surf sprays into the air and the water evaporates. These particles drift on the breeze and can travel a long way. The air near the ocean is extremely corrosive for miles.

-- Alan


----------



## wquiles

QtrHorse said:


> Will,
> 
> I'm sure your wife will not mind you moving everything into one of the extra bedrooms.



I have been married to my wife for 19 years - no way on hell I am pushing my luck on that one - it might be me sleeping in the "shop" 

Will


----------



## Alan B

Wrong thread..

-- Alan


----------



## cmacclel

Video 


http://www.vimeo.com/2667359http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g8_u98G52G0


----------



## wquiles

Great video Mac!

That looks like the same threading tool I use 

Will


----------



## QtrHorse

That new lathe makes it look easy. 

Question;

Do you have to program the thread pitch and etc. or is there a library in the machine that you can pick from?


----------



## cmacclel

QtrHorse said:


> That new lathe makes it look easy.
> 
> Question;
> 
> Do you have to program the thread pitch and etc. or is there a library in the machine that you can pick from?


 

You have to tell it the thread pitch. 20 Threads per Inch is
1 / 20 = 0.05 pitch. The you give it the major diameter.

Mac


----------



## QtrHorse

Thank you Mac.

Let's see some video of those fancy clicky tail caps that you made for the naked hosts.


----------



## Anglepoise

What about the end of the thread. Does the insert create a run out groove or does it just withdraw itself at the exact same place.


----------



## cmacclel

Anglepoise said:


> What about the end of the thread. Does the insert create a run out groove or does it just withdraw itself at the exact same place.


 
It runs out in the exact same place.

The threads work fine as shown in the video though I need to add a few more steps at the end, as the first thread is only half width and has burrs. On my old manual machine after threading I would take the tool touch the first thread and put a chamfer on it then take one more threading pass to clean it up. Any left over material I would trim with a sharp exacto and then hit the threads with some scotchbrite and they looked great.

On the new machine I tried a few things and got satisfactory results. I re-ran the boring finish pass and then make one more threading pass and things worked out well. 

Similar to what they did here

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7yYwUC44WJg

Mac


----------



## LuxLuthor

That machine is way cool...but it looks like it's gonna be a long night. Good luck!


----------



## cmacclel

LuxLuthor said:


> That machine is way cool...but it looks like it's gonna be a long night. Good luck!


 

Ha Ha

Heres a much better quality video..make sure you click it to full screen!

http://www.vimeo.com/2667359

Mac


----------



## Mirage_Man

cmacclel said:


> It runs out in the exact same place.
> 
> The threads work fine as shown in the video though I need to add a few more steps at the end, as the first thread is only half width and has burrs. On my old manual machine after threading I would take the tool touch the first thread and put a chamfer on it then take one more threading pass to clean it up. Any left over material I would trim with a sharp exacto and then hit the threads with some scotchbrite and they looked great.
> 
> On the new machine I tried a few things and got satisfactory results. I re-ran the boring finish pass and then make one more threading pass and things worked out well.
> 
> Similar to what they did here
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7yYwUC44WJg
> 
> Mac



Coolant man!


----------



## will

When I do threading - the chamfer is done with the threading tool, I just go .005-.010 deeper then the thread depth. Most often I will finish the threading, put the chamfer in then take one final threading cut. I also like to use scotch pads to 'polish' the finished thread. 

That is one fine looking machine... best of luck with it....


----------



## wquiles

will said:


> When I do threading - the chamfer is done with the threading tool ... I also like to use scotch pads to 'polish' the finished thread ...



Exactly what I do for internal threading - but then again, I learn the little I know from you guys here in the forum 

Will


----------



## Mirage_Man

will said:


> When I do threading - the chamfer is done with the threading tool, I just go .005-.010 deeper then the thread depth. Most often I will finish the threading, put the chamfer in then take one final threading cut. I also like to use scotch pads to 'polish' the finished thread.
> 
> That is one fine looking machine... best of luck with it....



My threading procedure is like this.

1) Bore o-ring ID area to a few thou under size and chamfer right at egde to break the sharp edge so as to not cut the o-ring as the TC is threaded in.
2) With the threading tool, bore to final o-ring ID and chamfer start of thread area in one pass.
3) Bore thread ID with boring bar.
4) Thread
5) Lightly Scotch-Brite
6) Enjoy!


----------



## cmacclel

Mirage_Man said:


> My threading procedure is like this.
> 
> 1) Bore o-ring ID area to a few thou under size and chamfer right at egde to break the sharp edge so as to not cut the o-ring as the TC is threaded in.
> 2) With the threading tool, bore to final o-ring ID and chamfer start of thread area in one pass.
> 3) Bore thread ID with boring bar.
> 4) Thread
> 5) Lightly Scotch-Brite
> 6) Enjoy!


 

I re-wrote the program and have all the boring and thread cutting done with the threading tool now 

Only crappy thing is I have to trick the machine as it wont let me bore with a threading tool......WT* So it still asks for a tool change as in order to get it to work I needed to create 2 tools for the one internal threading tool 

I also crashed my new insert grooving tool  but I bent it back straight and it seems fine. Nothing like watching a grooving tool rapid at 150IPM to the right while still in the groove! Arg....CNC NEWBIE! Always watch the tool paths 

Mac


----------



## wquiles

cmacclel said:


> I also crashed my new insert grooving tool  but I bent it back straight and it seems fine. Nothing like watching a grooving tool rapid at 150IPM to the right while still in the groove! Arg....CNC NEWBIE! Always watch the tool paths
> 
> Mac



What insert grooving tool did you get?

Will


----------



## Alan B

cmacclel said:


> I re-wrote the program and have all the boring and thread cutting done with the threading tool now
> 
> Only crappy thing is I have to trick the machine as it wont let me bore with a threading tool......WT* So it still asks for a tool change as in order to get it to work I needed to create 2 tools for the one internal threading tool
> 
> I also crashed my new insert grooving tool  but I bent it back straight and it seems fine. Nothing like watching a grooving tool rapid at 150IPM to the right while still in the groove! Arg....CNC NEWBIE! Always watch the tool paths
> 
> Mac



I'm certainly not a CNC expert, but I do a lot of PVC machining on my lathe. I would think practicing on PVC instead of metal would be a good way to debug the software and protect the tooling. Mistakes with PVC usually result in the PVC popping out of the chuck, but I have not seen it damage a tool. I suppose it might shatter, though I have not seen it do so.

-- Alan


----------



## gadget_lover

They use machinable wax to make practice runs at the local high school. It can be melted back down and re-used. It hurts nothing if you set up a bad tool path.

Daniel


----------



## cmacclel

wquiles said:


> What insert grooving tool did you get?
> 
> Will


 
http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INSRIT?PMAKA=327-0453

http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INSRIT?PMAKA=327-0435


----------



## cmacclel

Well Edited the program I took the video off 

Here is the threading bar doing the whole job.

1) Rough boring ID 1000 rpm 10ipm
2) Finish Pass ID 1000 rom 5 ipm
3) Threading 600 rpm 2o TPI
4) Finish Pass (same as 2)
5) Single threading pass


http://www.vimeo.com/2822153


----------



## Alan B

Looks like 1:10 to do the actual cutting.

Wow, that is very quick.

-- Alan


----------



## wquiles

cmacclel said:


> Well Edited the program I took the video off
> 
> Here is the threading bar doing the whole job.
> 
> 1) Rough boring ID 1000 rpm 10ipm
> 2) Finish Pass ID 1000 rom 5 ipm
> 3) Threading 600 rpm 2o TPI
> 4) Finish Pass (same as 2)
> 5) Single threading pass
> 
> 
> http://www.vimeo.com/2822153



Great video!

Definitely jealous :devil:

Will


----------



## StrikerDown

That's freaking awesome! Don't you love it when a plan comes together? :thumbsup:


----------



## PhotonFanatic

cmacclel said:


> Well Edited the program I took the video off
> 
> Here is the threading bar doing the whole job.
> 
> 1) Rough boring ID 1000 rpm 10ipm
> 2) Finish Pass ID 1000 rom 5 ipm
> 3) Threading 600 rpm 2o TPI
> 4) Finish Pass (same as 2)
> 5) Single threading pass
> 
> 
> http://www.vimeo.com/2822153



Mac,

Why would you use the threading tool to do the jobs usually reserved for other toolbits, i.e., why are you boring with a threading insert?

Sure, it can be done, as you have shown, and seen yourself, but the nose radius on most threading inserts may range from .0002" to .0004", compared to a typical turning insert's minimum radius of .015". 

So which insert do you think will last longer?

Plus, the high cutting speeds that you use when boring can create sufficient heat to ruin the delicate threading insert's tip. That's why threading is usually done at lower speeds, with smaller DOCs.

Perhaps you knew all this and are just in too much of a rush to change the tool once the operation is running? :devil:


----------



## cmacclel

Fred I would not due this to any other metal besides aluminum. That insert has hundreds of threading jobs under it's belt and it's still on the same side as when the used tool was given to me by a friend 

Also that insert seems to have at minimum a 0.005 radius which it probably more like a 0.010 which is why I originally tried it.

Here are the inserts

http://catalogs.shoplocal.com/jlind...in=false&itemcount=0&mode=test&pagenumber=490

Mac


----------



## wquiles

Same tool and inserts that I use - they are really long lasting, at least on Al 

Will


----------



## tino_ale

cmacclel said:


> As for making a run of lights with just the converstional software, yes should not be a problem.
> 
> If you have never ran a lathe or machinery before I think it would be highly unlikely for someone with no experience at all to jump in and run any machine safely. You do not want to begin on a $30k cnc machine
> 
> Mac


Does anyone know how many conversationnal software there are? Is it something specific to a maker or is there some kind of industry standard?

Another question, what are the most affordable good quality CNC lathe that are big enough to machine 1" flashlight titanium parts (not including DIY retrofit here)?

thanks for the info and thanks for the video


----------



## cmacclel

tino_ale said:


> Does anyone know how many conversationnal software there are? Is it something specific to a maker or is there some kind of industry standard?
> 
> Another question, what are the most affordable good quality CNC lathe that are big enough to machine 1" flashlight titanium parts (not including DIY retrofit here)?
> 
> thanks for the info and thanks for the video


 

Every conversational package is different per manufacture. As for a CNC lathe for 1" titanium I have no clue maybe a Syil like Pablo's?

https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/174188

Mac


----------



## precisionworks

> machine 1" flashlight titanium parts


Even a tiny lathe can do Ti parts, at glacial speed. To do something (or multiples) at a reasonable rate, around 5 hp is a good number, more or less. That horsepower lets you take a reasonable cut.

Specific models? Surely some of the CNC guys will chime in. This one is a little light on horsepower, but the price is right:

http://www.microkinetics.com/lathe1236/index.htm


----------



## wquiles

Good looking machine .... Funny thing is, that is exactly the same lathe I have (PM 12x36), of course mine is manual 

Will


----------



## Mirage_Man

wquiles said:


> Good looking machine .... Funny thing is, that is exactly the same lathe I have (PM 12x36), of course mine is manual
> 
> Will



Yeah, and about $5000 more without any options! 

If I _ever_ go CNC it will be an enclosed machine with tool changing.


----------



## Data

tino_ale said:


> ...
> Another question, what are the most affordable good quality CNC lathe that are big enough to machine 1" flashlight titanium parts (not including DIY retrofit here)?
> 
> ...



Tell us why you want a CNC machine? Do you want a small machine that is just fun to learn programming and to make a few pats on from time to time? Do you think 20 parts is enough?

CNC lathes come in two classes, tool room and production. Mac's lathe is tool room and my lathe is production. There are lots of differences but you can only afford a production lathe if it is used. Typical range of used production lathes is $5000 and up. In France you will have a different selection than we do in the states so I can't help with picking manufacturers. But I can help with deciding if a lathe is shot or still has life left in it.


Cheers
Dave


----------



## cmacclel

precisionworks said:


> Even a tiny lathe can do Ti parts, at glacial speed. To do something (or multiples) at a reasonable rate, around 5 hp is a good number, more or less. That horsepower lets you take a reasonable cut.
> 
> Specific models? Surely some of the CNC guys will chime in. This one is a little light on horsepower, but the price is right:
> 
> http://www.microkinetics.com/lathe1236/index.htm


 


I was looking at the microkinetics but the video they posted is pathetic  

Mac


----------



## precisionworks

> If I _ever_ go CNC it will be an enclosed machine with tool changing.


A friend has the Haas TL model ... I stopped by the other day and asked him to make half a dozen threaded parts for me (for a customer). I make more money on the parts when I don't have to make them

He asked me to run out & grab a coffee & donut for him, probably a ten minute trip. Walked into the shop with the food & three parts were already finished. The other three were done before the coffee was gone. I love to watch that thing thread.


----------



## Mirage_Man

precisionworks said:


> A friend has the Haas TL model ... I stopped by the other day and asked him to make half a dozen threaded parts for me (for a customer). I make more money on the parts when I don't have to make them
> 
> He asked me to run out & grab a coffee & donut for him, probably a ten minute trip. Walked into the shop with the food & three parts were already finished. The other three were done before the coffee was gone. I love to watch that thing thread.



Exactly! I love watching all the coolant spraying around in there too and none of it on me or my floor .


----------



## cmacclel

Mirage_Man said:


> Exactly! I love watching all the coolant spraying around in there too and none of it on me or my floor .


 

The Haas TL is a toolroom lathe and is pictured on page 1  The coolant doors were a $3k add on and supposedly they still leaked horribly with them which is one of my reasons I went with what I did My machine handles the coolant well not one drop on the floor so far.
Mac


----------



## Mirage_Man

cmacclel said:


> The Haas TL is a toolroom lathe and is pictured on page 1  The coolant doors were a $3k add on and supposedly they still leaked horribly with them which is one of my reasons I went with what I did My machine handles the coolant well not one drop on the floor so far.
> Mac



Glad to hear that Mac. I know it was a concern. 

The production rigs can use extreme pressures and GPH. It can be like a fire hose (slight exaggeration) spraying the part and tool.


----------



## cmacclel

Mirage_Man said:


> Glad to hear that Mac. I know it was a concern.
> 
> The production rigs can use extreme pressures and GPH. It can be like a fire hose (slight exaggeration) spraying the part and tool.


 
I know what you mean when I was looking at lathes I saw some 1000psi coolant setups 

Mac


----------



## precisionworks

The slickest setup (pun intended) is MQL ... Minimum Quantity Lubrication. It does not replace flood, as nothing takes heat away faster than heavy flood. But MQL is nice in some lower heat apps, as well as for milling & drilling use. I've been looking for one on eBay, but nothing so far.

Accu-Lube is the best known micro lubricator. These are not "misters", they dispense a controlled size lube droplet into a high velocity air stream. The lube is a synthetic, vegetable oil, and a gallon lasts almost forever (which it should at $70/gallon).







http://www.itwfpg.com/acculube/applicators.html

Tapmatic makes the EconoMizer, which looks like a dead copy:

http://www.tapmatic.com/pdfs/CuttingFluids_DispensSystems.pdf


----------



## tino_ale

Data said:


> Tell us why you want a CNC machine? Do you want a small machine that is just fun to learn programming and to make a few pats on from time to time? Do you think 20 parts is enough?
> Cheers
> Dave


Ok, my project. To have a lathe at home in order to make the part I want, when I want, the way I want  That's the point and to me, CNC or manual doesn't really matter.

BUT. Considering the price of a good manual compact lathe (understand movable by a bunch of people with no lifting machine), I found out that it would be very unlikely that I spend the time and effort to make enough parts myself and resale them in order to pay-back the machine and tooling.
This is where CNC comes into play. Maybe it is worth throwing more money into the machine and make small runs of parts (yes, 20 would be the max) and make a profit that pays the machine back and the tooling.
I'm unsure how much more CNC cost vs. manual cost for the same machine. 30% more? twice the price?

I see CNC as the entry ticket to make runs and at least try to pay the machine back. I don't see this happening with a manual lathe : time and screwups will cut the benefit too low. How many hours of work will it take to pay the machine back? :duh2: I don't have that much time.

Hope that makes sense? If my idea is totally off, don't hesitate to tell me so


----------



## cmacclel

tino_ale said:


> Ok, my project. To have a lathe at home in order to make the part I want, when I want, the way I want  That's the point and to me, CNC or manual doesn't really matter.
> 
> BUT. Considering the price of a good manual compact lathe (understand movable by a bunch of people with no lifting machine), I found out that it would be very unlikely that I spend the time and effort to make enough parts myself and resale them in order to pay-back the machine and tooling.
> This is where CNC comes into play. Maybe it is worth throwing more money into the machine and make small runs of parts (yes, 20 would be the max) and make a profit that pays the machine back and the tooling.
> I'm unsure how much more CNC cost vs. manual cost for the same machine. 30% more? twice the price?
> 
> 
> 
> I see CNC as the entry ticket to make runs and at least try to pay the machine back. I don't see this happening with a manual lathe : time and screwups will cut the benefit too low. How many hours of work will it take to pay the machine back? :duh2: I don't have that much time.
> 
> Hope that makes sense? If my idea is totally off, don't hesitate to tell me so


 

In a quality machine a CNC is like 5x-10x the price if not more than a comparable manual machine. If your looking for something that you can move around with a few guys you only have a couple of options. The Syil is 450lbs and around $5000 with software.

http://www.syilamerica.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=24&products_id=39&osCsid=560qj06k93p01sfvhjder62fs5

Mac


----------



## precisionworks

> make small runs of parts (yes, 20 would be the max) and make a profit


I contract with a local CNC shop to do anything in quantity. They have half a dozen Mazak machines & the operator is an ex-Mazak field service technician, so he's awfully sharp. I could never make as much profit by doing these in my shop as I can by sending them out.

Doing small parts runs, it could take a lifetime to pay back the machine. They might pay part of the cost of tooling, which isn't bad. CNC machines pay for themselves when they run 8 or 16 or 24 hours per day, 365 days per year.


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## Data

tino_ale said:


> Ok, my project. To have a lathe at home in order to make the part I want, when I want, the way I want  That's the point and to me, CNC or manual doesn't really matter.
> 
> BUT. Considering the price of a good manual compact lathe (understand movable by a bunch of people with no lifting machine), I found out that it would be very unlikely that I spend the time and effort to make enough parts myself and resale them in order to pay-back the machine and tooling.
> This is where CNC comes into play. Maybe it is worth throwing more money into the machine and make small runs of parts (yes, 20 would be the max) and make a profit that pays the machine back and the tooling.
> I'm unsure how much more CNC cost vs. manual cost for the same machine. 30% more? twice the price?
> 
> I see CNC as the entry ticket to make runs and at least try to pay the machine back. I don't see this happening with a manual lathe : time and screwups will cut the benefit too low. How many hours of work will it take to pay the machine back? :duh2: I don't have that much time.
> 
> Hope that makes sense? If my idea is totally off, don't hesitate to tell me so



I think it would be safe to say that a CNC lathe will at least double the cost of the machine itself. For small toolroom CNC lathes and toolroom manual lathes for roughly the same HP, the tooling and therefor tooling cost is similar but the way you use a CNC lathe is vastly different.

The difference between CNC and manual is how you work on a part. When programming my CNC I usually start off with some code that is what I used for another job. I look at my design and start changing the code around till it is close to what I want and then I simply run it and cut some wax or aluminum. Then I look at and measure the part, make changes to the code, and run it again. This will cycle several times till I get the part the way I want it. Mistakes do not matter so long as you do not break anything because the cost of that material is irrelevant. If the final part is going to be Ti, I get the program working properly before I put in the expensive stock. Once this is all complete you can run 20 parts but you will have put in just as much time as you would have to run just one part. 

Could a person make the single part he wanted on a manual lathe faster? Yea if he does not make any mistakes and he knows exactly what he wants to make in the first place!

Running 20 parts on the CNC will go quickly but you will have to be there and monitor every step. And unless you purchased a big gang tooling setup or a production machine, you will be feeding the machine every tool by hand.


Cheers
Dave


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## 65535

There are only two reasons to go CNC as far as I see it. Prototype/production machining, and intricate parts that require precise radii and the like that is nearly impossible to do on a manual machine.


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## tino_ale

precisionworks said:


> Doing small parts runs, it could take a lifetime to pay back the machine. They might pay part of the cost of tooling, which isn't bad. CNC machines pay for themselves when they run 8 or 16 or 24 hours per day, 365 days per year.


Not questioning what you're saying but I don't think a machining company have the same requirements as me. They need to pay the machines, the place, the people, the logistics, taxes and everything. They need to fight the competition. Pay insurance etc.

My goal is only to pay the tooling and machine back. My time would not be paid. The place neither. And since my aim is to have my own machine and make parts myself, it would still Ok for me if it takes 6 month and a hundred parts to pay the machine back. Time is not a worry, as long as it doesn't take 50 years to get the machine paid 

I just have difficulties to estimate what kind of benefit I can make on a basic titanium part. Like a tailcap, a battery tube and so on. And what's the tooling cost associated to these work. And the time it will take on a small CNC machine to make them.... that's a lot of questions.

I may also just go for a manual lathe and accept the idea that I'll never get any money back until I resell it at loss.


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## cmacclel

Tino it appears you looking for a machine specificallty for titanium. Have you looked around at all the people's comments that are currently working with titanium? There biggest gripe as I have read appears to be drilling the intitial hole in the stock and have read some comments where it takes 30-45 minutes just to drill through a piece of titanium for a standard battery tube. These people have 12 x 36 1500lb machines. You on the other hand are looking to do the same with a 400lb machine. I guess you could double if not triple that time. I think if your specifically targeting titanium you would get frustrated with a small machine. 

Mac


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## PhotonFanatic

As for working with Ti, as Mac just pointed out, the only difficult operation is deep drilling. There are two ways to deal with that: 1) Get a big powerful machine, or 2) Get some really good drills.

Both of those options are expensive. I have a decent lathe, a step larger than the mini lathes, and it has decent power, but I'd still call it a small machine, so I have to go option #2--and those drills can cost up to $160 a piece!  Still, buying good drills is cheaper than buying a bigger lathe, for which I don't have the room anyhow, and it is also cheaper than buying less expensive drills and then buying a sharpening machine.

There is a reason that custom light builders, especially those making one-offs, charge so much for their lights--it is very time consuming to work with Ti, and the tooling is expensive.

I'm not trying to discourage you in any way from getting a lathe--just pointing out that if you are planning to work on Ti--just bump up your tooling budget. :devil:


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## will

Titanium is a tough material to work with. Certain operations work fairly well. Drilling, cutting with a band saw and a few others are very slow. 

I suggest you do some math as to the cost and the money you expect to get on your return of investment (for the cost of the lathe ) 

The only way you will pay for the machine is to charge for your time. I'll give you a quick example. I am not counting electricity, space, heat or any other overhead costs.

Buy a piece of 1 1/4 diameter round aluminum 12 inches long. Figure that will make 6 tailcaps. keeping the math simple, the cost of the rod is $24.00, so - if you are not charging for your time. you would sell them at $4.00 each. You did not offset the cost of the lathe in any way. 

Next - let's add a modest labor cost to the tailcap. Say $20 an hour. (Most shops are in the $60 - $90 range ) Figure it will take 30 minutes to make one, drill a hole, bore out the hole, turn down the outside, put on a thread, part it off the lathe, finish the back end. Add in the cost of the first part made and tossed because it is defective, the thread went too deep. so - you have 5 tailcaps that can be sold. Your investment is $24, material, $60 labor. now you have to sell the remaining 5 tailcaps for $16.80 each . You can generally pick up a stock tailcap from the manufacturer for under $10. These will already be anodized or plated in some way. ( I am making up numbers all over the place, don't hold me to them ) 

To offset the total cost of this machine ( $1200.00 ) - you will have to make and sell at least 120 tailcaps. I did not add in rejects, keeping the math simple. I do a lot of work on Mini-Mags. I probably have made no more 20 tailcaps in the last 3 years.

I am into photography, I have a few cameras, I have not sold any pictures, purely a hobby with me. I spent a bunch of money on the cameras and lenses over the years. I did not expect any return on investment. I also bought a mini lathe years back to make parts to restore old tin trains and parts for HO trains. Also bought with no intention of making money or off setting the cost. 

So - after all that - I hope this makes sense to you..


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## will

PhotonFanatic said:


> and it is also cheaper than buying less expensive drills and then buying a sharpening machine.



I worked in a prototype machine shop years back. Every job was unique. One thing I was taught in the very beginning is how to sharpen drill bits by hand on a grinding wheel. These were simple points, no brad points or multiangle deals. I will say - a sharpening machine is much easier to use


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## tino_ale

:huh::huh::huh:

Guys, I appreciate your honest input. It's better that I lower my expectations now instead of figuring this too late.

I understand that producing 10-20-ish runs of titanium flashlight parts on a 400lbs CNC lathe is not going to produce any income that will pay for the tooling and lathe in any reasonable time.

I've got much to think about. Go the conventionnal route seems to be the way to go. Stick to a 400lbs lathe or get a 1000+lbs lathe is another question but I do understand that when it comes to machines, the heavier and bigger, the better.

Jeez. Mechanical stuff and machines are expensive!


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## StrikerDown

tino_ale said:


> :huh::huh::huh:
> Jeez. Mechanical stuff and machines are expensive!




You should see the cost of machines that are not made in Asia.

A small simple 2 color printing press for maximum 12" X 18" sheet made in Germany... $80,000.00 plus.


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## precisionworks

> Mechanical stuff and machines are expensive!


Actually, the machine is the cheapest part of the entire process - pay for it once, feed it a small amount of electricity, squirt a little oil here & there, call it good.

Tooling is the deal breaker, especially in hard to work materials (titanium, most stainless steels, abrasion resistant steels, etc.) It is heartbreaking to watch a brand new, $100+ twist drill snap in two because you went too deep between each peck cycle. EBay provides some less expensive tooling, but you won't find every drill size or coating type there, you'll rarely find specialty inserts for aerospace alloys (which includes Ti), you'll almost never see the little inside grooving or outside grooving tools used for making O-rings, etc.

Tooling is expensive. The machines might as well be free, as they represent (over time) only a tiny percentage of total machining expense. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waspaloy


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## will

precisionworks said:


> you'll almost never see the little inside grooving or outside grooving tools used for making O-rings, etc.



I bought a small carbide interior threading tool a few years back, I got it from MSC for $25 if my memory is correct,


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## KC2IXE

someone put it to me this way - figure tooling will cost the same as the machine for the basics - and it holds true for any price machine, because as you go up in size/quality, you need larger/better tooling to take advantage of said machine


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