# 3V R123A charger voltages and currents



## jsr (Jan 12, 2007)

I'm collecting some info on the charge voltages and currents of the 3V R123A chargers out there (and their respective cells).

For those who have the following cells and chargers, can you look at your charger to see the output voltage and current of the Charger? Not what's on the wall wart (x-former) as some chargers perform more conversion at the charger.

Updated with charger specs:

- AW's 3V R123As
---> 4.4V / 360mA(?)

- e-lectronics 3V R123As
---> 600mAh = 4.4V / 360mA
---> 450mAh = 3.6V / 360mA (possibly 3V by chemistry, possibly no circuit)

- Powerizer 3V R123As
---> 4.5V / 420mA or 210mA

- Tenergy 3V R123As
---> 900mAh = 4.4V / 360mA 
---> 750mAh = 3.6V / 360mA (possibly 3V by chemistry, possibly no circuit)

- Ultralast 3V R123As (from Fry's Electronics)
---> 3.6V / 360mA (possibly 3V by chemistry, possibly no circuit)

- Others not listed

Thanks!

JSR


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## coppertrail (Jan 12, 2007)

Powerizer 3V RCR123As:

Output: DC4.5V - 0.42/0.21A


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## AndyTiedye (Jan 12, 2007)

Charger for Tenergy "900mah": 4.4V


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## lednut (Jan 12, 2007)

I have just purchased some AW 3.0v rcr123's from Lighthound.It seems that my Ultrafire WF-138 charger needs to be on the 3.6v switch setting to charge these properly.When on the 3.0v switch setting,I can only get 3 min runtime before the IC protection kicks in.Measured voltage when charging is 3.69v.The same 3.0v AW rcr123 in a nano charger measures 3.99v (on charger)after 4 hours of charge,but the light never turns green.


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## AW (Jan 13, 2007)

My AW 3.0V R123 ( 600mAH ) requires a 4.4V charger. Any regular 4.2V charger will only charge them to 60% capacity.


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## TJZ (Jan 13, 2007)

jsr, Tenergy 3.0V RCR123A 900mAh = Charger: 4.4V 360mA. 
I have this setup.


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## Newuser01 (Jan 13, 2007)

I'm aquiring a set of 3.7 RCR's. How do you measure? Do you just look at the label?

This info would be usefull even if its not one of the Ops's batteries and charger.

Regards.


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## patycake57 (Jan 13, 2007)

Tenergy 750 mAh charger: 3.6V 360 mA.
Tenergy 900 mAh charger: 4.4V 360 mA. Does this mean we can use AW's 3V cells on this charger? Lord knows I don't need another charger.


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## winston (Jan 13, 2007)

I've been reading CPF for a couple of months but this is my first post, so I hope I get this right. I've got an e-lectronics charger for their 3.0v 600mAh batteries, and the charger says it outputs 4.4v 360mA. Hope this is the information you were after. The cells and charger came with about 4 double-sided pages of specs. and info. about the set; so if it's other details you're after, I'm sure they're to be found in those pages.


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## TCW 60 (Jan 13, 2007)

My charger for 3.0 RCR charge it at 4.4 V 360 mA (read from the label). I dont' know what brand it is. It looks like one from AW, but I get it from a dealer here in Germany.


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## lednut (Jan 13, 2007)

AW said:


> My AW 3.0V R123 ( 600mAH ) requires a 4.4V charger. Any regular 4.2V charger will only charge them to 60% capacity.


 Ok,so with the AW 3.0v rcr123 batteries i am using, which charger do I need to use? Do I use the Nano or the Ultrafire wf-138? Which charger will deliver the required 4.4v to reach full capacity? On the wf-138 do I use the 3.0v or 3.6v switch setting? Will the light ever turn green on either charger? I am now thoroughly confused, but that is ok because this is all a learning process for me,provided I don't set the house on fire by overcharging a battery. Thanks any help would be appreciated.


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## Markcm (Jan 13, 2007)

There are many different rated chargers for a good reason, 

Don't mix any of these up!!!!

Everyone would like a single charger for all their batteries, but these batteries are not the same and therefore require their own charger, many of these chargers may look the same and are essentially the same other than the value of some small electronic component internally which defines the current or charge termination voltage. 

Some batteries have internal circuit boards, some are constructed of different raw materials, and many chargers have different rates of charge which may be too high of current for some smaller batteries such as the RCR123. For your own safety and the safety of others, don't mix them up.

The charge voltage and current is typically located on the back of the charger; here is a shot of two different types of 3.0v rechargeables and their chargers, the first which is my 3v by chemistry and has a charge termination of 3.6v and the second is my PCB regulated 3 volt cell at 4.4v











Most "standard unprotected" Li-ion batteries (ranging from the RCR123 to the 14500 and up to 18670 cells) are nominally 3.7 volts and use a charger that terminates at 4.2 volts. Charge current should be an amperage about 1/2 the capacity of the battery and not to exceed about 3/4 of the capacity. For example, a RCR123 with capacity of 600mAh should charge at about 300mAh

Now the 3 volt rechargeable CR123 batteries are all over the place and you need to use a lot of caution with getting the correct charger and definitely don't use the 4.4v charger on your standard unprotected Li-ion RCR123 battery. Example: Some IC reduced RCR123 3 volt cells have voltage protection in them to help in abusive situations but not all; one of the powerizer 3.0 cells charges at I believe 4.5v yet has no voltage protection/regulation what so ever. I know of at least 3 completely different technologies used to produce a 3.0 volt rechargeable CR123 at this time which can not be mixed together.

The main point of this message is that you really need to pay attention to what battery you are charging and use the correct approved charger; it's not an area you can safely get away with mixing up.

-Markcm


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## patycake57 (Jan 14, 2007)

Markcm's pictures are identical to the Tenergy 750 mAh (top) and 900 mAh (bottom) chargers that I have (except for the Tenergy logo). Where are they from? 

My hope is that we can identify which chargers can be used for cells from different sources so that one doesn't need to always buy another charger. For example, I'm interested in purchasing some AW 3.0V cells based on info from moldyoldy that suggests that they're better than the Tenergy 900mAh cells, but don't really want to accumulate another charger, especially if it is the same 4.4V 360mA charger. 

Can anyone verify that the AW charger is the same as the bottom picture? Thanks


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## AndyTiedye (Jan 14, 2007)

AW said:


> My AW 3.0V R123 ( 600mAH ) requires a 4.4V charger. Any regular 4.2V charger will only charge them to 60% capacity.



The "3.0V" setting is just for your LiFePO4 batteries, isn't it?


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## jsr (Jan 15, 2007)

Thanks for all the info guys! I've updated my first post with the info thus far. I have Ultralast 3V cells and charger at home...forgot what the charger specs were, but I'll add that info also (I recall it's identical to one of the ones already listed).

coppertail - why does the Powerizer have 2 currents? Is it selectable?

Markcm - thanks for your contribution to this thread. It's always good to get information from those more knowledgeable and involved with the industry. I never knew there were 3V rechargeable cells by chemistry. Are these Li-Ion also?


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## AndyTiedye (Jan 15, 2007)

Markcm said:


> There are many different rated chargers for a good reason,
> 
> Don't mix any of these up!!!!
> 
> ...



And both are nondescript blue cells too. Oh goody!


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## Markcm (Jan 15, 2007)

AndyTiedye said:


> And both are nondescript blue cells too. Oh goody!


Let's see if I can hit a few of these questions in one: 

For anyone buying various cells and chargers it's a good idea to mark them up with a pen if you need help differentiating them. These two particular cells I have shown are differentiated by their capacity which is marked on the label; if you are not familiar with your batteries ask questions if needed and treat them as different because they are.



> I never knew there were 3V rechargeable cells by chemistry. Are these Li-Ion also?


No, these are not Lithium Ion. I believe they are similar to AW's LiFePO4 cells but can't say for sure, I''ve never used AW's and I also find mine to be 3.0 nominal volts at 450mAh where as his are stated at 3.2 nominal volts and 500mAh, it may just be a difference in stated spec's. These don't have any type of PCB regulation, it's the voltage by chemistry. They will be peak 3.6 when FRESH off the charger but I've found mine to drop quickly as shown (indicated by 3.0 450mAh) on the graph in post #22 in my other RCR123 threadThese work graet in my inexpensive xenon light that I keep in my car and use when working on it.



> Can anyone verify that the AW charger is the same as the bottom picture? Thanks


The basics for a charger is that it meets the voltage and current requirements of your battery, eg. a 4.4v 360mA charger for Li-ion is exactly what is says, a 4.4v 360mA charger for Li-ion. This includes charge termination methods such as rate in change of voltage or current which is specific to the chemistry. Remember in general you never mix chargers amongst chemistries such as Ni-MH to Li-ion, some chemistries do have similar charge characteristics and share chargers such as Li-ion and Li-poly. Some chargers have temperature detection as well which will vary between chemistries. It's a good guess that all the li-ion 4.4v chargers are similar, I've even found that the DSD seems to charge these RCR123 3.0 PCB regulated cells......now don't hold me to that, I just found that it appeared to completely charge them. You want to be mostly concerned with not over charging a cell, an undercharged cell isn't dangerous but it's not very useful either.

In a general note, Lithium Ion does not trickle charge like Ni-Mh; when the charge is complete it should be unplugged or removed from the charger.

Even though Ni-cad and Ni-MH which have similar voltages by chemistry, they use different charge terminations. Sure many people charge either with a charger designed for the other one but don't expect your Ni-mh cells to last too long charged in a Ni-cad charger, capacity and cycle life will start to drop off. And worse case, the cell could overheat and leak or burst.

A bit long winded and I am not a electro-chemical scientist by any means so please recieve this posting as my "interpretations" and I hope it is useful to some extent.

-Markcm
www.e-lectronics.net


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## AndyTiedye (Jan 15, 2007)

The other thing to watch out for if you mix-and-match is that a charger meant for
a _lower_ voltage battery will not properly detect a battery that has been run
down too far to be safely recharged. (e.g. the Powerizer charger for their
3V batteries will charge a battery that is down to 2 volts, which may not be
safe for a 3.7V Li Ion).

This is mostly an issue with unprotected Li ions, since the protection circuitry _should_ prevent
protected cells from being run down too far in the first place.


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## Mike abcd (Jan 15, 2007)

patycake57 said:


> ...
> I'm interested in purchasing some AW 3.0V cells based on info from moldyoldy that suggests that they're better than the Tenergy 900mAh cells, but don't really want to accumulate another charger, especially if it is the same 4.4V 360mA charger.
> 
> Can anyone verify that the AW charger is the same as the bottom picture? Thanks



I just got a the "AW 3.0V charger and 2 x AW 3.0V protected cells" package from Lighthound delivered on Friday. The charger is black but the tag on the back is the same as the lower picture. 

PH-123A-3.0A
Output 4.4 V DC, 360 mA
Charge with constant current and constant voltage.

Lighthound was out of AW's 3.0 V RCR123 cells as a separate item so I also ordered a "generic Chinese 3.0V protected RCR123". I included a note on the online order to delete the generic cell if it wouldn't charge safely or fully on the AW charger. The packing list had a handwritten "ok" next to my comment.

I've only done tests on Medium on my P1D CE. 68 minutes on the AW cell, 116 minutes on the generic Chinese. Not as much as I hoped or as low as I feared.

When trying to check voltage on these cells, I see a difference of ~.3 V less if my fingers are touching the probes and my body resistance is loading the cell. With no load, my meter seems to be reading a lot closer to the voltage "hiding" behind some diodes. The meter has a 10 M ohm input impedance spec. With "no load" the meter reading is higher since the diodes have a very small leakage current and I got 4.00 V on AW's cell before the run time test and 4.05 V on the generic cell. The actual cell voltage might be even higher as the meter may still be loading it a bit.

A cheap Harbor Freight DMM seems to have a much higher resistance and reads about the same as when I hold the probes with the better meter but still drops slightly when I hold the probes.

Voltage checks on subsequent charges have yielded 4.05-4.11 V unloaded right off the charger and seem pretty random between the AW and generic cell. The charger seems to cut off charging completely as the voltage dropped slightly on a cell left charging overnight.

I don't have any resistors around that are suitable for checking voltage under load but may try to get some. Right now, I'm pretty sure the cells use "back to back" diodes to implement a voltage drop under load but still allow charging but I'm puzzled as to what type and how much of a voltage drop they cause. Silicon diodes are most common but their .6-.7 V drop seems larger than what I'm seeing while germaniums are pretty rare, don't seem to have enough current capability and their voltage drop seems lower (.2-.3 V) than I'm seeing.

BTW, my P1D CE seems fully regulated on high/med checked with a light meter but took over an hour to drop into regulation on low on the "3.0 V" cells. Initial low brightness was roughly 1/3 of the way between medium and low on the bright side.

My P1D CE seems to have a lower Vf than some tested. It took 45 minutes to drop into regulation on medium on a 1 year old AW "3.7 V" protected RCR123 vs chevrofreak's test where his was in regulation in 9? minutes on medium.

I would not suggest charging either of the 3.0 V cells from Lighthound on a "3.0 V" charger that outputs 4.6 V. My "unloaded" readings might still be reading the cell voltage on the low side but even if they are right, another .2 V would charge the cells "hiding inside" to at least 4.25-4.30 V and that's really bad for cell life and might be even dangerous.

If my "unloaded" readings are actually the cell voltage, the charger is only charging the cells to 75-80% capacity.

Mike


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## coppertrail (Jan 15, 2007)

jsr said:


> coppertail - why does the Powerizer have 2 currents? Is it selectable?


 I provided both the input and output values from the bottom of my charger. I've modified my post to only include the output voltage.


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## patycake57 (Jan 16, 2007)

Lots of great information here. Thanks. I went ahead and ordered a few of the 600mAh 3.0Vic cells from Markcm to test out using my Tenergy 900 charger.


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## Newuser01 (Jan 16, 2007)

Powerizer model H00410042-US-1
Input DC12V => 0.5A
Output DC4.2V => 0.42/021A
Come with 3.6V Cr123A (FOC is 4.2V)














Regards.


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## Markcm (Jan 16, 2007)

coppertrail said:


> Powerizer 3V RCR123As:
> 
> Output: DC4.5V - 0.42/0.21A


Someone asked why it has two currents stated,

My guess is that the charger is fixed at 420mA (.42) If you charge a single cell, that cell will receive .42 amps, if you charge two cells in parallel each cell will receive half- .21A each for a total current of .42A.

For any of these type chargers with unprotected cells, only charge cells of equal discharge states otherwise one will finish before the other and then get overcharged while the other finishes charging. when charging protected cells, the cell will cut off the charge on its own (this threshold is usually a safety feature and may be higher than the chargers termination voltage, this will protect against destruction but may still be abusive on the cell)

Because the charger is a fixed current, regardless of 1 or 2 cells, one cell charges twice as fast as two cells yet cells charged independently will be more accurate and healthier for your cell. If your cells are not equally discharged, recharge them one at a time to avoid overcharging the stronger cell.

Markcm


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## jsr (Jan 17, 2007)

Added info for Ultralast 3V R123A cells. Seems these are the 3V by chemistry type, but the cell is specifically labelled as Li-Ion...strange since Mark stated the 3V by chemistry type aren't Li-Ion. Looks like there *may* be some compatibility amongst some of the brands, with the exception of the Powerizer which seems different from the rest.


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## Mike abcd (Jan 17, 2007)

The real danger with charging LiOn in parallel is the potential for VERY high current flows when cells at different resting voltages are connected together. 

Once the voltage equalizes, they should be very safe being charged in parallel as long as the CC charging current is lower than 1C of the lower capacity cell. Since the cell voltages stay equal, neither should overcharge and the higher capacity cell will just tend to accept more of the charging current.

Serial circuit elements each "see" the same current.
Parallel circuit elements each "see" the same voltage.

I only charge one cell at a time because of the potential initial current flows when cells have different initial voltages.

Mike


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## Markcm (Jan 17, 2007)

jsr said:


> Added info for Ultralast 3V R123A cells. Seems these are the 3V by chemistry type, but the cell is specifically labelled as Li-Ion...strange since Mark stated the 3V by chemistry type aren't Li-Ion. Looks like there *may* be some compatibility amongst some of the brands, with the exception of the Powerizer which seems different from the rest.


JSR,

Please note, I was only referencing two specific 3v by chemistry cells (LiFePO4 ) these may not be the same as the Ultralast you are referencing, I don't know about others and don't want anyone to get the wrong impression.

Mike abcd has a good point that two cells in parallel don't necessarily have the same current flowing through each one, the internal resistance of the battery changes with temperature and state of charge. Regardless, a li-ion battery should not be overcharged and mixing significantly unproportionally discharged batteries should be avoided.

I still recommend using the approved charger for each battery model, avoid the potential risks. Trust me, as a vendor it would be much easier to sell a one-size fits all charger but these batteries just are not the same and each has its application. 

Regarding this earlier comparison, I don't think this is correct based on what I saw on Tenergy's site:



> - e-lectronics 3V R123As
> ---> 600mAh = 4.4V / 360mA (seems similar or identical to Tenergy 900mAh)
> ---> 450mAh = 3.6V / 360mA (seems similar or identical to Tenergy 750mAh, 3V by chemistry, no circuit)


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## SilverFox (Jan 17, 2007)

Hello Mike,

Suppose we have two 600 mAh cells. One is at 4.2 volts resting, and the other is at 3.2 volts resting. This is a difference of 1 volt.

Do you have any idea of what the current would be over this 1 volt differential?

Tom


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## patycake57 (Jan 17, 2007)

The Tenergy labelled 750 mAh cells that I received from BJ about a month ago have a low voltage cutoff, so it doesn't sound the same as the 450mAh cell from Markcm. However, the charger looks exactly the same (e.g. the top one in his post #12: 3.6V 360 mA).


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## jsr (Jan 17, 2007)

Markcm - I removed the statement that the cells are similar or identical. BTW, do your 3V 450mAh cells come with low voltage cutoff?


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## Markcm (Jan 17, 2007)

jsr said:


> Markcm - I removed the statement that the cells are similar or identical. BTW, do your 3V 450mAh cells come with low voltage cutoff?


Hi JSR,
No, my 450mAh cell is a bare cell. To get and idea of how many variations of CR123 are out there, I carry these models which are which are only a portion of what is available on the market:

CR123 primary (disposable- one use); 3v 1300mAh 
RCR123 unprotected/unregulated; nominally 3.7v 750mAh (uses same 4.2v charger as below)
RCR123ic protected/unregulated; nominally 3.7v 650mah (uses same 4.2v charger as above)
RCR123_3.0ic protected/regulated; nominally 3.0v 600mah (uses unique 4.4v charger)
RCR123_3.0 unprotected/unregulated; nominally 3.0v 450mah (uses unique 3.6v charger)

I'd also like to share a few more of my "interpretations" regarding matched voltage of cells when charging. It's my understanding that the voltage curve during charge of a li-ion is not linear at all, in other words the voltage nearly reaches 4.2v well before charge is complete. If this is the case, voltage of the cell is not a very accurate indicator of state of charge and therefore would not effectively distribute current in a parallel circuit, and one more reason to use appropriate chargers and only charge equally discharged cells together. Chances are, you would not recognize short term effects from mismatching cells while charging but the capacity and cycle-life will deteriorate at an accelerated rate.

I personally do not recommend depending on the internal resistance slowing current enough in the first cell to "stop" current flow while the second cell catches up. 

Say you have a batch of randomly "discharged" cells which are mixed up, there is no time lost in charging them one at a time because the current rate of the charger is fixed regardless of one or two cells in it (unless you have a two channel charger which should have an LED for each channel).


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## Mike abcd (Jan 23, 2007)

SilverFox said:


> Hello Mike,
> 
> Suppose we have two 600 mAh cells. One is at 4.2 volts resting, and the other is at 3.2 volts resting. This is a difference of 1 volt.
> 
> ...



Hi Tom,

I hope you're not expecting anything more than a SWAG...and that you don't mind me using your RCR123 tests to help me guess...

To start, the "3.0 V RCR123" cells in this thread appear to have two diodes in them that "drops" their voltage under load and charge. I suspect it takes about .85 V difference between cells of this type to get any current flow.

My comment was really directed more towards "normal" LiOn cells and even then it will vary a lot between cells depending on their ability to deliver high current. Let's assume a cell like the Powerizer RCR123 you tested.

When the cells are initially connected, I suspect the lower voltage cell looks like a discharged capacitor and will initially take a large current for some 10s of milliseconds and the fully charged cell will "flash" a high initial current under the load. It wouldn't surprise me if it was 5 amps or greater decaying rapidly over 10-100 ms.

Once the large initial surge is "over" your discharge test results appear to indicate a Powerizer RCR123 can hold 3.7 V or more for the next minute or so. I suspect it would take about that much current to initially raise the lower cell to 3.7 V but that's largely a guess. I know even my lower capacity LiPo packs rated at 8C will initially have only about .1 V rise at 1C.

The current supplied by the charger has to be considered too as all of it will flow into the lower voltage cell initially. That's probably an additional 350-550 mA in the low cost "parallel" chargers.

In total, I'd expect the lower voltage cell could see as much as 3C-4C charge current for the first minute or so declining exponentially until the cell's charge levels equalize.

Considering many folks seem to depend on the LVC in protected cells and over discharge their LiOn, things can look even worse. As you have correctly pointed out, over discharged cells should initially be charged much lower than 1C until their voltage reaches normal levels.

Comments?

Mike


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## LightBright (Jan 23, 2007)

It seems that the RCR123 3.0V battery specs are not very well regulated by the battery industry IF each brand of cell needs a specific charger. That's an unfortunate situation. Hopefully the cell's protection circuits will prevent any explosions or fires!


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## Markcm (Jan 23, 2007)

LightBright said:


> It seems that the RCR123 3.0V battery specs are not very well regulated by the battery industry IF each brand of cell needs a specific charger. That's an unfortunate situation. Hopefully the cell's protection circuits will prevent any explosions or fires!



It seems there is a wide spread misconception that rechargeable 3.0 cells are the same (they are not the same) which leads to the thought that they can be handled equally. From what I can see, nearly every vendor clearly states "only use xyz approved charger." and makes no claims that the regulation technology is similar to any other or that chargers are interchangeable. 

Consider the analogy of oil, there's vegetable cooking oils, petroleum two-stroke for outboards with different blends, and automotive for crank case; you don't necessarily mix them because although they're all "oil" they each have they're own application. If you’re a quart shy of filling up after your next oil change, I don't recommend replacing that quart with used oil or two-stroke. The same goes for batteries which must be respected and handled accordingly for their unique specifications and applications. Much of this type discussion spawns from the search for a one size fits all battery and charger which is all fine for the models that do overlap but does not mean the ones that don't aren't good products, just different. The variation should be looked at as a benefit as each has different performance strengths and therefore can accommodate a wider range of applications.


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## Mike abcd (Jan 23, 2007)

LightBright said:


> It seems that the RCR123 3.0V battery specs are not very well regulated by the battery industry IF each brand of cell needs a specific charger. That's an unfortunate situation. Hopefully the cell's protection circuits will prevent any explosions or fires!



It's a double edged sword. If suppliers were well regulated, I doubt we'd have RCR123, 18650, LiPo packs etc LiOn cells available at all. None of the major manufacturers seem to supply consumer cells, only packs with charge/discharge protection circuitry due to liability concerns.

The only real players seem to be smaller Chinese companies with no concern for liability or those selling the major manufacturers cells for unapproved use.

Buyer beware...

Mike


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## SilverFox (Jan 23, 2007)

Hello Mike,

My comment is that parallel charging of Li-Ion cells is safe and it is a good way to make sure cells are balanced. The nice thing about parallel charging is that you never run into the problem with over voltage.

Yes, there is a surge in current when you first hook the cells together, but that is relative to the difference in their voltage. If you look at a 1 volt difference, you can possibly get a 5 amp spike, but a 600 mAh cell will not be able to sustain that for any length of time and Li-Ion cells can handle high pulses very well. Constant discharge rates are lower because that causes the chemistry to heat up. 

We can limit the surge by limiting the voltage difference between cells we hook up in parallel. I try to keep cells within 0.5 volts, and that has worked out very well.

When charging in parallel, you need to be mindful of keeping the charge rate within the 1 C recommended by the manufacturers. If you are charging cells of different capacities, you choose the 1 C rate of the lowest capacity cell.

Tom


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## Mike abcd (Jan 23, 2007)

Hello Tom,

I certainly agree charging LiOn cells in parallel is FAR safer than series. I also agree that as long as you make sure the initial volatge differences are small, it's not going to have much effect on the cells.

My concern is that most folks don't check their cells first like you do and over discharged cells shouldn't be subjected to large current inputs.

Personally I'll stick with charging LiOn cells individually. Even with the LiPo packs I use for r/c, I only buy packs with balance connectors and use a dedicated LiOn charger with independent charge channels that's smart enough to soft charge a slightly over discharged cell and will not charge a grossly over discharged one.

I'm fairly conservative with battery charging and use in general but VERY careful when it comes to LiOn/LiPo. A good friend recently almost burnt down his million dollar house charging a LiPo pack with a multi chemistry serial charger. He walked in on it when it had ballooned to the size of a softball but luckily before it "vented with flames".

Mike


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## Newuser01 (Jan 25, 2007)

Nano (RCR123) charger from DX arrived today.


Listed specs:
4.2V 0.45A



(AC100-240V) cute and tiny. Have not had a chance to try out yet. But soon.


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## FlashCrazy (Jan 26, 2007)

Mike abcd said:


> Personally I'll stick with charging LiOn cells individually. Even with the LiPo packs I use for r/c, I only buy packs with balance connectors and use a dedicated LiOn charger with independent charge channels that's smart enough to soft charge a slightly over discharged cell and will not charge a grossly over discharged one.
> 
> I'm fairly conservative with battery charging and use in general but VERY careful when it comes to LiOn/LiPo. A good friend recently almost burnt down his million dollar house charging a LiPo pack with a multi chemistry serial charger. He walked in on it when it had ballooned to the size of a softball but luckily before it "vented with flames".
> 
> Mike


 
I charge mine singly as well now. Also, I've done dischage tests using a Triton charger/discharger on my cells to check their capacities. This way, I can match the cells with similar characteristics to use in my lights that take more than one cell. Still, after reading info on lithium batteries (protected and unprotected), I'm still wondering how safe these things are. Here a link for some great info, everyone using lithiums should read...
https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/106242&page=1&pp=30


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## Turbo DV8 (Jan 31, 2007)

Mike abcd said:


> The real danger with charging LiOn in parallel is the potential for VERY high current flows when cells at different resting voltages are connected together.


 

The UltraFire RCR123 charger is the only one I have seen so far that charges two cells *and* has an LED indicator for each cell. Does anybody know if this charger does indeed monitor, charge and terminate each cell individually, or is it just a parallel charger with two LED's? Trying desperately to understand all the nuances and follies of this RCR123 headache before I jump in!


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## abvidledUK (Feb 1, 2007)

This is the one (two) I use.

"Bagis" from DX.





Does exactly what it says on the tin...

3v / 3.6v one/two cells, same voltage cells independently.

Not tried mixing cell voltages on charge, not recommended.

http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.770

Very pleased with it, excellent charger.

it will also balance slightly different cells if left on trickle charge for an hour or so, as per the instructions.

When my 2RCR123 cell torches run dim, inevitably one RCR123 is lower voltage than the other, this is equalised after a spell in this charger


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## Turbo DV8 (Feb 1, 2007)

abvidledUK said:


> This is the one (two) I use.
> 
> "Bagis" from DX.
> 
> ...


 

So, are they "equalized" by bringing them both independently up to full charge, or by being charged in parallel? If parallel, then it does not charge the cells independently.


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## abvidledUK (Feb 1, 2007)

Turbo DV8 said:


> So, are they "equalized" by bringing them both independently up to full charge, or by being charged in parallel? If parallel, then it does not charge the cells independently.



You tell me.

A single cell in either position will charge single cell.

Swapping cell position whilst on will switch led colour correctly.

All I know is that from experience, after trickling, both cells, no matter what relative state they were in before charge, show very similar state of charge after.

Good enough for me to think independent.

Good enough for me to treat as independent.

And for the cost of a BC-900, you could buy around 8 Bagis's, for truly independent charging of single RCR123's !!!


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## Turbo DV8 (Feb 1, 2007)

abvidledUK said:


> You tell me.
> 
> A single cell in either position will charge single cell.
> 
> Swapping cell position whilst on will switch led colour correctly.


 

Can you put two cells in it, with very different states of charge, and the fresher one finishes charging much sooner (LED turns off)? Does it take twice as long to charge two low cells than it does one?


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## cdosrun (Feb 1, 2007)

A little Vanson 3v regulated/protected charger and cell from Maplin.

The charger outputs 4.3v at 370ma
The cell has a listed capacity of 650mAh.

Andrew


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## coppertrail (Feb 1, 2007)

I noticed that if I take them out right when the LED turns green, the cells have different voltages. If I leave them trickle for a half hour to an hour, their voltages are more equal.


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## Markcm (Feb 9, 2007)

*TESTED: charged mismatched cells in a parrallel charger*

Here is something interesting,

We've talked about it quite a bit but has anyone ever monitored the voltage and current when two unequally discharged cells are both put into a parallel charger? (parallel meaning single charge circuit shared by both battery bays) There's alot of talk that it is bad, dangerous, and must be avoided at all costs, or else! (okay, maybe I got a little carried away there  )

Anyways, I tried it out tonight to see what would happen, here's the story:

I charged a single RCR123 3.7 750mAh unprotected cell until the LED was almost green and checked the current; it had dropped to about 60mA which is good and shows the charge is nearing termination, voltage was 4.05v.

I put a second cell which was new and uncharged reading about 3.8v (as most new cells do) in my Maha777 on the discharge cycle and pulled about 200mAh out of it and voltage down to about 3.4v.

Now I have a nearly complete charged battery and a nearly discharged cell. According to our ideas so far, the nearly charged cell will potentially get over charged when the discharged cell is placed in the parallel charger as the discharged cell catches up.

Now keep in mind that this charger (and likely most all Li-ion chargers) has some smarts in it, remember I said the current rate had dropped from 350mA to 60mA as the first cell approached full so it isn't necessarily a fix 350mA until termination.

So, with the nearly charged cell in the charger finishing off its charge the current is at 60Ma, while monitoring the current I put the discharged cell in and rather than the charger pushing the charged cell even harder, the current actually reversed by -150mA while the current of the discharged cell was 200mA. Do you remember what the total charge current spec of this charger was? That's right 350mA, what a coincidence! It seems as though charging completely stopped on the charged cell and it began charging the lesser cell along with the charger.

So l correct me if I am wrong but this does not sound harmful in any way (with this specific charger.) A down side of this situation would be that it takes longer to charge these together than it would to charge them individually because the forward charge current from the charger of 200mA is only doing part of the work rather than utilizing the full 350mA.

What do you think???

-Markcm


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## Turbo DV8 (Feb 9, 2007)

*Re: TESTED: charged mismatched cells in a parrallel charger*



Markcm said:


> Now I have a nearly complete charged battery and a nearly discharged cell. According to our ideas so far, the nearly charged cell will potentially get over charged when the discharged cell is placed in the parallel charger as the discharged cell catches up.
> 
> So, with the nearly charged cell in the charger finishing off its charge the current is at 60Ma, while monitoring the current I put the discharged cell in and rather than the charger pushing the charged cell even harder, the current actually reversed by -150mA while the current of the discharged cell was 200mA. Do you remember what the total charge current spec of this charger was? That's right 350mA, what a coincidence! It seems as though charging completely stopped on the charged cell and it began charging the lesser cell along with the charger.
> 
> So l correct me if I am wrong but this does not sound harmful in any way (with this specific charger.)


 

I could be wrong, but my understanding of the danger is not that the full cell will be overcharged, but that when inserting a fully charged cell in parallel with a discharged cell, spontaneous excessive current will then flow from the charged cell back into the discharged cell, which can cause it to explode. I think your own observations bear this out. "I put the discharged cell in and rather than the charger pushing the charged cell even harder, the current actually reversed." I think what you saw was the charged cell "charging" the dead cell, hence the reverse in current. Just a guess.


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## SilverFox (Feb 9, 2007)

Hello Mark,

Turbo is correct. When you parallel two Li-Ion cells, they will try to equalize their voltage. The initial spike in current with large Li-Poly packs has been measured as high as 5 amps when one pack was fully charged and the other was fully discharged.

The current spike with single smaller cells will be smaller, but it does exist. I don't know of anyone that has tried to measure it, so I can't give any specifics.

The good thing is that Li-Ion cells can handle high current spikes without problems. Panasonic has stated that Li-Ion cells (I am sure they were talking about the 18650 cells) can easily handle a sort duration pulses up to 25C.

The problem is the protection and/or voltage step down circuit. If you parallel two cells with a large voltage difference, you may get enough of a surge that the circuit will blow.

This is why you want to measure the resting voltage of the cells you want to parallel and limit the difference to 0.5 volts. Another option is to parallel the two cells through a resistor. This will limit any surge current.

Parallel charging is very safe and cells of different sizes and capacities end up fully charged and balanced. You must pay attention to the charging current to make sure it is suitable for the lowest capacity cell.

An example:

Let's take 4 unprotected cells that have resting voltages of between 3.3 and 3.8 volts. Two of the cells are R-CR123 cells with 650 mAh capacity, and the other two are 18650 cells with 2400 mAh capacity. 

When you parallel them up, you end up with a battery of 6100 mAh capacity. The maximum charge rate for Li-Ion cells is 1C, so the maximum charge rate would be 6.1 amps. 

If all the cells were of equal capacity, you could charge at a maximum of 6.1 amps, however two of our cells are lower capacity, so we have to adjust the charging rate down to accommodate them.

Since two 650 mAh cells in parallel have a capacity of 1300 mAh, our maximum 1C charge rate can not exceed 1.3 amps.

In this set up, the smaller capacity cells will be charged at their maximum charge rate of 1C and the larger capacity cells will be charged at a much slower rate of 0.27C. All cells will end up at 4.2 volts, but the charging time will be extended because of the low charge rate on the larger capacity cells.

Tom


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## Bisley (Feb 9, 2007)

Hi, all! I have a couple of questions. 
I use the UltraFire Model WF - 139 to charge AW 3.7 750 mAh 
protected 123s. This charger's output is 4.2V @ 450mA. 
I also have the Tenergy Model PH - 123A - 3.0A charger which
I use for their protected 3.0 900mAh 123s. This charger's 
output shows 4.4V @ 360 mA.
The lower capacity 3.0 battery uses a charger with a higher 4.4
output than the higher capacity 3.7 cell, which uses the 4.2 
output. I do notice the difference in mA output, 360 vs. 450.

Why does the 3.0 battery charger use a higher voltage output
than the 3.7 batteries?

Can the 3.7 batteries be used in the Tenergy charger safely?


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## Markcm (Feb 9, 2007)

SilverFox said:


> Hello Mark,
> 
> Turbo is correct. When you parallel two Li-Ion cells, they will try to equalize their voltage. The initial spike in current with large Li-Poly packs has been measured as high as 5 amps when one pack was fully charged and the other was fully discharged.
> 
> Tom



How do you think this would compair to the initial spike of a cold filament in a high current lamp?

I would guess the lamp would far exceed the momentary spike of mismatched healthy cells.

These q's would be easily enough answered with an o'scope; I think I need to get one. For now, I don't personally have any problem mixing "undamaged" healthy cells of mismatched charge state.


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## SilverFox (Feb 9, 2007)

Hello Bisley,

Li-Ion chemistry ends up at 4.2 volts fully charged. In order to get it to work in a 3 volt application, a circuit is added that drops the voltage down from 4.2 volts.

When it comes to charging, you need to charge a 3 volt cell to a higher voltage to overcome the effects of the voltage drop down circuit.

Your next question is more difficult to answer... Safety is relative.

The manufacturers have settled on 4.2 volts as a maximum cell voltage. The chemistry will vent with flame (also known as an explosive fireball) at around 4.5 volts.

Is it safe to charge to 4.4 volts? Probably not.

On top of that you take a hit in cycle life. If you charge to 4.4 volts, you can expect to get around 2 - 3 cycles from your cell, then it will be dead. If you charge to 4.2 volts, you can expect around 300 - 500 cycles. If you charge to 4.1 volts, you can expect over 1500 cycles.

You will get longer runtime if you charge to a higher voltage, but do you really want to replace your cells every 3 cycles?

Tom


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## SilverFox (Feb 9, 2007)

Hello Mark,

I believe the spike from a cold filament ends up being higher.

I also have no problems charging Li-Ion cells in parallel, as long as you follow the rules regarding charging current.

Tom


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## Markcm (Feb 9, 2007)

SilverFox said:


> Hello Mark,
> 
> I believe the spike from a cold filament ends up being higher.
> 
> ...



Good point,

No cell should be placed in a charger if the charger exceeds the safe charging voltage or current of the cell(with a matched or unmatched cell companion) , generally .3-.5C for these r123's and 4.1 - 4.2v for standard Li-ion.


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## Bisley (Feb 10, 2007)

Tom, 
Thanks for the input. Can you explain to me the effects of
the lower 360mA rating versus the higher 450mA? Does this 
difference alter the charging time / capacity of the cells??


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## SilverFox (Feb 10, 2007)

Hello Bisley,

In general, a higher charge rate will charge faster than a lower charge rate, so your charge time will be reduced, however this relationship is not linear due to the gradual reduction in charge current during the Constant Voltage part of the charge.

For example let's say we have a 2000 mAh Li-Ion cell. If we charge it a the manufacturers recommended rate of 1C, we will be charging at 2 amps and it will take roughly 1.5 hours to charge. If we reduce the charge rate to 1 amp, it will take a little over 2 hours to charge.

Capacity is determined by the design of the cell and the voltage the cell is at.

Tom


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## Mike abcd (Feb 10, 2007)

Markcm said:


> Here is something interesting,
> 
> We've talked about it quite a bit but has anyone ever monitored the voltage and current when two unequally discharged cells are both put into a parallel charger? (parallel meaning single charge circuit shared by both battery bays) There's alot of talk that it is bad, dangerous, and must be avoided at all costs, or else! (okay, maybe I got a little carried away there )
> 
> ...



Many thanks for posting your results. Some comments/thoughts…

Most folks seem to be focusing on the battery at the higher charge/voltage that sees the sudden discharge. I think the much larger concern is the battery at the lower charge/voltage that gets the charge input from the other cell and all the charge input from the charger.

I won’t belabor the point but charging LiOn is responsible for far more incidents than discharging them. I’ve seen little in the literature about how they react to charge input > 1 C and prefer not to find out in an uncontrolled experiment. At a minimum, I suspect it’s not a good thing for capacity or life cycles.

Manufacturers specify a 1 C max charge rate but I’ve seen several who also specify a maximum of .1 C for over discharged cells as long as they are below a certain voltage. My concern is for users connecting multiple cells in parallel without checking the voltage of each cell first.

What charger were you using? It’s either significantly undercharging and/or not doing a CC/CV charge. A charger that does CC/CV and charges to 4.20 V should deliver its’ full rated current until the battery reaches 4.20 V. It should then clamp the voltage at 4.20 V which results in the current dropping until the battery is “fully charged”. The charge current should be removed when it has dropped to ~3-5% of the original current although most inexpensive chargers don’t.

What voltage do batteries reach when left on the charger? If it’s above 4.05 V, the charger isn’t doing CC/CV and there’s additional evidence for that in your test…

I’d guess the battery at 4.05 V at 60 mA would have dropped to ~4.0 V if you had removed it. That’s roughly about 75% charged and current flows would have been higher if it was more fully charged.

Your analysis of the charge currents after the lower charge battery was connected appears incorrect. A basic principle of circuits is that the currents into and out of a node have to add up to zero. Consider the charge terminal, if we have 200 mA flowing out of it to the battery, we must also have 200 mA flowing into it from the charger.

Now lets look at your measurements. Adding the battery at the lower voltage/charge caused 150 mA to flow out of the other battery. The battery at the lower voltage/charge had 200 mA flowing into it. 150 mA of that 200 mA was from the other battery and the remaining 50 mA had to be from the charger. You appear to have inverted the sign of a current flow and were fooled by the answer you expected.

Again, the charger used for the test doesn’t appear to be doing CC/CV and its’ 350 mA rating is suspect IMHO. If it had, you would have seen a higher current flow into the discharged battery. I won’t even hazard a guess how much without knowing the batteries and their discharge characteristics.

IMHO, the max charge current for a fixed rate charger should be no more than the lowest capacity of a battery that you charge on it. The obvious reason is that you want to be able to charge a single battery but there are less obvious ones too for not going much above that when charging multiple cells.

BTW, unless you had low impedance current probes on each battery and an oscilloscope it would probably be hard to get a good measurement of the max current flows. The currents probably drop very quickly in the first few seconds.

Connecting multiple “3.0 V RCR123” batteries that use circuitry to drop the voltage is much less of an issue IMHO. From what I’ve been able to figure out, it will take ~.85 V difference between the batteries to get any current to flow between them. Unless one cell is over discharged, it’s a non issue.

Mike


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## SilverFox (Feb 10, 2007)

Hello Mike,

It is unfortunate that you did not go a little deeper with your point of the accidents involving charging Li-Ion and Li-Poly batteries.

Over 95% of the of the “explosive fire ball” incidents involved charging battery packs with cells in series. Parallel charging was brought forth as a way to eliminate this danger, and I have never heard of a problem case involving parallel cell charging. I think there have been some issues with parallel pack charging, but not when you get to the cell level.

At the same time, balancing was introduced and now we have balancing chargers.

When you charge a battery pack with cells in series, one cell can get overcharged under the right circumstances. Parallel charging totally eliminates this and is very safe.

Since parallel and balance charging have gone mainstream, the “explosive fire ball” issues have dropped off.

The surge argument should be noted, but there is no evidence of damage, loss of performance, or any safety issues that have come up when hooking cells in parallel. Let’s call parallel charging as an advanced technique that requires measuring the voltage of the cells you are getting ready to parallel together. If the voltage is within 0.5 volts, go for it. If the spread in voltage is higher, use a resistor to limit the surge. Or, you could use a resistor each time you parallel cells. Let them equalize, remove the resistor and proceed to charging.

If you have an application that uses multiple cells such as the SureFire M6 with a different lamp, you could parallel your 6 R-CR123 750 mAh cells, and if you have a charger that is capable of 4.5 amps, you can end up will all 6 cells fully charged and balanced in roughly 1.5 hours. No worries, no over voltage safety issues, and no balance issues. 

Tom


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## Markcm (Feb 11, 2007)

Regarding post #56 above,

I don't think my measurements are as inaccurate suggested, I am human and could have made a mistake but feel pretty confident about them. I am educated in the electronics field so I have a pretty good understanding of voltage and current and how to use my dvm.

I am using the super standard RCR123 charger which I posted picture of on page one of this thread and looks exactly like the one shown above in post #41

The current of the charged cell did actually reverse when the discharged cell was inserted indicating that the charged cell began discharging as the under charged cell worked to equalize, the currents I stated are what I measured. I don't know what else to say other than try it out.

Regarding comments about the current being too high, it seems as though charging current is being freely interchanged with a nearly instantaneous spike that "may" occur when the lesser cell is connected in circuit with the greater charged cell; I don't recognize this as a threat myself, the measured currents excluding this very short spike are still less than .5c

Super-duper long story made short ----> I have no concerns charging mis match state of charge healthy cells together in parallel in this single channel charger.

-Mark


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## Mike abcd (Feb 11, 2007)

Markcm said:


> Regarding post #56 above,
> 
> I don't think my measurements are as inaccurate suggested, I am human and could have made a mistake but feel pretty confident about them. I am educated in the electronics field so I have a pretty good understanding of voltage and current and how to use my dvm.
> 
> ...



Mark,

I'm not questioning your measurements but your conclusion about the current being supplied by the charger is wrong. 

150 mA was coming out of one battery and going into the other that was getting a total of 200 mA. That's a 50 mA difference which was being supplied by the charger.

The charger specs you posted don't claim CC/CV and it isn't acting like one. It's probably just a resistor limited voltage source that drops current as the voltage increases. That explains its' low "current contribution".

I missed this in your earlier post;
"Now I have a nearly complete charged battery and a nearly discharged cell. According to our ideas so far, the nearly charged cell will potentially get over charged when the discharged cell is placed in the parallel charger as the discharged cell catches up."

That's wrong. There's no danger that the "nearly complete charged battery" will "get over charged". IMHO, the issue is the other battery getting hit with too much charge current.

Mike


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## Markcm (Feb 11, 2007)

Mike abcd said:


> IMHO, the issue is the other battery getting hit with too much charge current.
> 
> Mike



I admit that I only put my meter on the charger for a few seconds so there's a lot of room for error here.

I still don't see why you suspect the lesser cell will get over current; I see how it may get a spike too quick for a volt meter to even recognize but that doesn't seem to represent an over charge condition. These batteries were grossly mismatched and my dvm did not register anything over 200mA on the weak cell which is less than if I were to put the cell in the charger by its self.

Do you really think a spike of (5A I think you estimated) on an RCR123 lasting milliseconds is a potential hazard and should be represented as hazardous?


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## Mike abcd (Feb 11, 2007)

SilverFox said:


> Hello Mike,
> 
> It is unfortunate that you did not go a little deeper with your point of the accidents involving charging Li-Ion and Li-Poly batteries.
> 
> ...



I only charge LiOn/LiPo cells independently. That applies both to the single cell batteries I use in my flashlights and to the multi-cell battery packs I fly in my r/c helis. I did my homework and that's, by far, the safest way to do it. I never put a Li cell on charge without checking the voltage. I have five Li/On chargers with a grand total of 16 independent charging channels and have been charging 6 cells (2 x 11.1 V packs) daily for over a year with no incidents and I'd like to keep it that way. 

A good friend who I got into r/c helis bought a serial charger and found one of his $85 packs ballooned to softball size one night. Probably the smartest guy I know and that was a Thunder Power pack with a Thunder Power balancer attached and a Thunder Power charger. 

Connecting current sources of unknown voltages together is bad practice period. I doubt there will be a serious incident from folks plugging a couple of RCR123 cells together but I think it may be possible and I want no part in encouraging it.

Some folks will only remember that Silverfox said parallel charging was ok..and forget that .5 V thing... 

One severely over discharged cell that sat for a couple of weeks and developed metal tendrils... add one fully charged cell that he forgot he charged couple of weeks ago...

What happens? I don't want to find out. Probably the charged battery plus the charger current doesn't have enough energy for anything dramatic...probably...with 18650s...

I hacked a DSD charger into a dumb charging cradle and charge one battery at a time. I've got more LiOn than I need so time is never an issue and I regard patience around LiOn as another good practice.

You are, of course, free to do as you please and folks can read both of our opinions and decide for themselves.

Mike


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## Mike abcd (Feb 11, 2007)

Markcm said:


> I admit that I only put my meter on the charger for a few seconds so there's a lot of room for error here.
> 
> I still don't see why you suspect the lesser cell will get over current; I see how it may get a spike too quick for a volt meter to even recognize but that doesn't seem to represent an over charge condition. These batteries were grossly mismatched and my dvm did not register anything over 200mA on the weak cell which is less than if I were to put the cell in the charger by its self.
> 
> Do you really think a spike of (5A I think you estimated) on an RCR123 lasting milliseconds is a potential hazard and should be represented as hazardous?



Mark,

I think the only potential hazardous condition is from a severely over discharged cell being connected to one that has a high charge state.

I also think you can put well over 1 C on a cell for many minutes and I don't think that's healthy for these low C cells. The current into the discharged cell will be higher than you measured with a 1 C CC/CV charger and a fully charged cell. I charge some of my LiPo packs at over 2 C but they're 15 C packs and I taper the charge at 4.1 V. Some of the LiOn cells I have I won't charge over .5 C after seeing the voltage rise under charge. BTW, the cell capacity on many LiOn is way over rated and that only makes things worse.

Major companies don't sell bare LiOn cells or unprotected packs to consumers for good reasons...

My comments here are mostly based on concern for cell life but the potential dangers exist. Are you really in that much of a hurry? Buy another $12 charger???

Mike


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## Markcm (Feb 11, 2007)

Mike abcd said:


> My comments here are mostly based on concern for cell life but the potential dangers exist. Are you really in that much of a hurry? Buy another $12 charger???
> 
> Mike



I was getting the impression from your earlier comments that this spike you reference was potentially very hazardous; all my references have been to healthy cells (meaning not severely over discharged which I consider damaged). 

It's not a matter of the $12 charger, I have piles of them, literally. I am just working to better understand the technology myself and was caught off guard by your concern of the potential spike.

The charger I am working with says CC/CV on it as well.........

Anyways, thanks for the good discussion. signing out
-M


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## hank (Mar 15, 2007)

Do any of these chargers have the UL (Underwriters Laboratories) seal of approval?

Thomasdistributing has a Delkin (1-cell) and a Tysonic (1 or 2-cell, email info) charger they claim is limited to a safe charge; more expensive


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## coppertrail (Mar 15, 2007)

I purchased the 3.0V Charger/Cell combos from both batteryspace.com and all-battery.com, and they've been working great. I'd have to check for the UL seal of approval. The prices on the TD cells/chargers are pretty steep.


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## hank (Mar 15, 2007)

Hmm, the dealxtreme review is a bit scary:

"CR123A charger by my famous brand Soshine. Just snap any CR123A rechargeable batteries to charge ...."

Duck and cover not mentioned. But I wonder.


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## hank (Mar 16, 2007)

Arrgh. Google "battery bulging" --- lots of this going on.
http://www.appledefects.com/index.php?s=battery+recall&submit=Submit

I emailed back and forth to Thomas Distributing and verified their two lithium 123 rechargers are not UL listed (at first they said they were, but they were looking at the wall wart power adapter, which does have the UL stamp on it). Thomas did say that they "do trickle charge" but only when needed to bring the voltage up to the top safe level.

Which is still pretty ambiguous. But I can't find any record of fires, which is a plus in this market.


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## Hypnosis4U2NV (Mar 18, 2008)

Be careful, the UL logo can be a fake most of the time, especially if the product is coming from China.. Just cause it has one doesnt mean its the real deal and/or safe..


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## DM51 (Mar 18, 2008)

Did you realize that this thread is 1 year old? I can't see much point in resurrecting it, except to show that not much has changed in the intervening period...


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## winston (Mar 18, 2008)

DM51 said:


> Did you realize that this thread is 1 year old? I can't see much point in resurrecting it, except to show that not much has changed in the intervening period...



Well, it's a darned good thread! I especially like post #9: my very first ever.
:twothumbs
-Winston


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## hank (Mar 18, 2008)

I keep watching for news on this, so "no news" is news (sigh).

Quoting from one website mentioned above, as of today:

"LiFePO4 is developing in our factory. We only sell the cell to R&D group to explore future application. If you have any need and suggestion, please email us at [email protected]"

(It appears all you need to do is send money to qualify to buy them, though)

The other says in part:

"# The batteries, packs, and chargers you are purchasing are for professional use only
# You are supposed to have sufficient knowledge in handling the products.
# You will only charging the batteries and packs in a fire proofing container. You will not leave the product on the wood materials or carpet environment that would promote fire spread.
# You will not put / use products in place adjacent flammable materials and you will take caution and wear protective cloths, glass and gloves.
# You will not leave the batteries, packs and chargers unattended during charging and using ..."


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## DM51 (Mar 19, 2008)

winston said:


> Well, it's a darned good thread! I especially like post #9: my very first ever.
> :twothumbs
> -Winston


Lol! yes, great first post, Winston! Welcome to CPF, lol!


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