# Battery Grenade Goes Off On Duty Belt



## TKO (Mar 4, 2008)

This happened three days ago. I just got permission to release some info on this. 

Good thing the kid was wearing body armor and had a quick thinking partner or it would have been bad. 

I don't have times to post details right now, but here are some pics.


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## Daniel_sk (Mar 4, 2008)

No surprise, cheap batteries from China...:green:.


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## Illum (Mar 4, 2008)

Ouch....
Thank god for that body armor, burns from metal fires is worse than ordinary burns.

W[T]F batteries....


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## stitch_paradox (Mar 4, 2008)

Any information why it happened?


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## NoFair (Mar 4, 2008)

Good thing no one was inured. :thumbsup:

I've never seen a battery of that brand to test ok. My HDS refuses them at once. :sick2:

Buy decent cells, Surefire usually has good LEO discounts and since it is a duty light buying a large box would probably make sense.

Sverre


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## Gunnerboy (Mar 4, 2008)

Crappy batteries. I recall seeing them on DX's site. :shakehead


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## carrot (Mar 4, 2008)

No surprise. You buy crappy batteries, you get burnt. 

A thorough and very careful cleaning will probably make that Surefire like new again.


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## Manzerick (Mar 4, 2008)

Wow!! That is horrible!!


My worst fear if for my EDC to pop like that!!!


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## jufam44 (Mar 4, 2008)

Wow! I'm glad nothing more serious happened with a  like that! Please post details when you can.

-Max


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## Jay T (Mar 4, 2008)

If you look at the "reviews" for WF batteries on dealextreme's site a common comment is "why pay more?". Hmmm.


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## gary3911 (Mar 4, 2008)

They should change the brand name of the batteries from "WF" to "WTF".


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## Flash_Gordon (Mar 4, 2008)

Glad you are OK. Uniform bits can be replaced. It could have been in your hand.

How many more lessons about cheap cells do we all need? Please, this is not a place to economize. Your use of the term grenade can be quite accurate.

Mark


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## WildChild (Mar 4, 2008)

I will say like Size15 would say, a SureFire should always be fed by american made CR123A. It happened too many times with cheap China cells...  Thanksfully, you were not injured!


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## pbs357 (Mar 4, 2008)

gary3911 said:


> They should change the brand name of the batteries from "WF" to "WTF".


 
Ok I'll only laugh at that because no-one was seriously injured. Seriously though that comment is funny as hell. 

Regarding cheap gear, I agree that "you get what you pay for" only allows skimping cost vs quality when there are no danger risks involved. For example, I keep a few of the DX LED drop-ins around, but at worst they'll do is, well... NOTHING, when I need them to light up. Batteries have so much stored energy, PTC protection and a reliable company name behind them are essential. I can't imagine the WF brand standing behind this incident to "make it right." Glad nobody was seriously hurt, and my prayers go out to that C2...I'm sure he'll pull through, tough little bugger.


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## Raoul_Duke (Mar 4, 2008)

gary3911 said:


> They should change the brand name of the batteries from "WF" to "WTF".



Funny :naughty: :twothumbs

Scarry thing is about 4 years ago I went through a box or two of these at least, maybee ~50 in total, one leaked before even using, other than that everything was OK.

I dont use any primaries anymore, and prefer Emoli for my hotwires, although I do have a few cheap RCR 123's in my E2D.


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## 250 (Mar 4, 2008)

The quick story is that the guy had been using the light and it failed. he probably thought it was the bulb and went on with his duties. Some time later (which I can't remember, I;ll edit it tomorrow) the SF got hot and burnt his shirt.

Someone stated the batts were cheap ones from China. Any one have more specific details. I wold like to forward specific information to the investigating Sgt., unless TKO is closely involved. I almost made a dupe but luckily checked before I sent my post I would hate for the Department to forbid certain lights (Surefire) because they think they are unsafe.

Thanks


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## Mr Happy (Mar 4, 2008)

To evaluate whether something is safe, you need to consider both the likely frequency of a failure occurring, and the level of harm such a failure could produce if it did occur. So you could have a failure that happens frequently with minimal consequences, or a failure that happens infrequently but with serious consequences if it did. Either could be considered equally "safe" or "unsafe".

Lithium batteries like the CR123A contain a significant amount of lithium metal, and on failure are like incendiary grenades. They therefore fall into the infrequent but severe consequences category.

I imagine devices using lithium primary batteries would be considered unsafe for use in an environment involving danger from ignition sources or where there is significant fire risk. Neither should they be used in confined spaces where the fumes from combustion could pose a problem.

This is just my opinion of course, but there have been enough documented instances of combusting lithium cells to cause various restrictions on transport of them by air (where confined spaces and danger from ignition sources are known problems).


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## SilverFox (Mar 4, 2008)

Hello 250,

Basically we have observed that there are inconsistencies in some of the cells made in China. Uneven cells in a multi cell application can cause a cell to "rapidly vent, sometimes with flames." 

There has been some testing on this, and we were unable to get the "premium" brands to exhibit the same behavior.

There is speculation that the purity of materials used in the batteries may be causing the problems, but we really don't know for sure.

While all batteries have this potential, there are very few reported incidents of these problems occurring with the "premium" brand cells.

Your department should stock up on Panasonic, SureFire, RayOVac, Streamlight, Duracell, Energizer, Sanyo, or BatteryStation cells for multi cell use. The other cells are fine for single cell use.

Tom


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## this_is_nascar (Mar 4, 2008)

I'm glad the person is OK, what what do you expect? You get what you pay for. So how much money did the company think they saved by purchasing these cheap-a** cells?


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## kongfuchicken (Mar 4, 2008)

Agreed with Silverfox.
Never use cells with different levels of charge in the same multi-cell light. 
Invest into a battery tester and take 5 minutes of your time to find the duds in your stash. Use them in single cell lights or toss them if you don't have any.
You most likely won't find any if you use usa made brands but I guarantee you that if you use cheap imported cells, you'll find at least one. 

The effort greatly outweigh the risk, in this case a burn hole in place of your shirt pocket.


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## Crenshaw (Mar 4, 2008)

i was using that battery at one point! in fact i still have some in the packet because i darent use them now.

who ever told me not to use them is probably saving my leg....thank you!

(i think it was marduke? cant remember )

Crenshaw


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## matrixshaman (Mar 4, 2008)

In the time it took me to post this and eat some dinner I see I'm now a little late with the info but: 
I don't believe it has been mentioned in this message thread but it has become fairly well known here that most of the battery explosions happen with lights that have more than one cell - 2 cell lights being the most common problem. Batteries get out of balance and one battery ends up charging the other one with a lot of current resulting in  Cheap batteries with no protection and poor quality in manufacturing are of course more prone to this problem - although it is rather rare to see this problem in a light that uses only 1 battery. I've got a couple WF batteries that came in some light and they work but I'll make sure I don't use 2 of them in any 2 cell lights after seeing this. I just looked at one of the WF I've got for any manufacturer info but I don't see anything except the usual warnings on it about not recharging, etc - almost same wording as SF batteries.


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## TKO (Mar 4, 2008)

First of all, this incident did not happen to me. It happened to someone who works for the same Department on the other side of the state. When I found out about it, I called over to his barracks and talked with the Station Commander, so what I am relating is second hand. He is the individual who authorized me to post this. I will try to contact the actual party involved, tomorrow.

While at a crash scene the light was used for a total of about one hour of steady on time. The owner handed it over to another officer and while the second officer was using the light, it "went out". The Station Commander did not know if either the owner or the borrower had switched the light off after it went out. The light was holstered and approximately 1 1/2 hours later while back on station there was a loud bang. The Station Commander said that it startled those present and the kid with the light thought the chambered round in his holstered Glock discharged somehow (must have been pretty dang loud, eh?). A co-worker of the owner ran into the room and saw that the owner's shirt was on fire and that the flashlight looked like a lit road flare. The co-worker used a leather glove to remove the flashlight from the duty belt and snuff out the shirt fire. The station commander said that if it weren't for the body armor a non-injury situation would have been a very serious burn.

I was advised that the "explosion" blew the lens out of the light at a pretty high velocity.

The batteries were purchased on ebay. The Station Commander advised that members carrying lights that take primaries on his station are looking into a group buy of [email protected] or [email protected]

Once again, this is the information garnered from the Station Commander, who, while not present when the incident occurred, had, obviously, talked to all parties involved.

I will try to contact the Trooper that owns the light, tomorrow. 

If there are any questions you want me to ask, post them and I will do my best to accommodate.


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## TKO (Mar 4, 2008)

250 said:


> The quick story is that the guy had been using the light and it failed. he probably thought it was the bulb and went on with his duties. Some time later (which I can't remember, I;ll edit it tomorrow) the SF got hot and burnt his shirt.
> 
> Someone stated the batts were cheap ones from China. Any one have more specific details. I wold like to forward specific information to the investigating Sgt., unless TKO is closely involved. I almost made a dupe but luckily checked before I sent my post I would hate for the Department to forbid certain lights (Surefire) because they think they are unsafe.
> 
> Thanks



250,

I told the Sarge that I would post this on the forum for input. I too worry about a knee jerk reaction towards non-issue lights, although I was encouraged by the mention in PaCIC that the batteries involved were "not Li-Ion", now, however, I am worried about the Department banning rechargeable batteries and seeing my 2 x 18650 p91 coming off my belt.

I am supposed to go with R&D to Streamlight sometime this month to talk about a new issue rechargeable light that was recently field tested, so I will call them tomorrow, also, and see whats being said at DHQ about this incident.

PM me with contact information and I will keep you updated:thumbsup:


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## Dr Jekell (Mar 4, 2008)

What did the poor Surefire ever do to the battery to deserve this kind of treatment?

My condolences and best wishes to Mr C2 for a speedy recovery.


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## Illum (Mar 4, 2008)

TKO said:


> While at a crash scene the light was used for a total of about one hour of steady on time. The owner handed it over to another officer and while the second officer was using the light, it "went out". The Station Commander did not know if either the owner or the borrower had switched the light off after it went out. The light was holstered and approximately 1 1/2 hours later while back on station there was a loud bang.



ah, so the light went out first....the kid didn't disengage the switch so the cells were still in an "on" state...yeah, theres warnings on that in previous explosion threads




TKO said:


> I was advised that the "explosion" blew the lens out of the light at a pretty high velocity.



there was a old old thread about some poor fellas 6P blew out, almost took an eye out. the explosion is pretty similar to that of a pipebomb


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## NA8 (Mar 4, 2008)

There's always the safe chemistry LiFeSO4 rechargeable batteries. Half the run time, but with the new Surefire LED's that shouldn't be that bad.

Battery and charger here: 

http://www.lighthound.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=2583


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## Fallingwater (Mar 4, 2008)

pbs357 said:


> I can't imagine the WF brand standing behind this incident to "make it right."


You are probably right, but why not try anyway? At worst they ignore your email.


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## matrixshaman (Mar 4, 2008)

TKO - don't let them take away or limit your light choices! Between some 37,000 plus members here that I'll bet own probably over a quarter million flashlights there are only a very small handful of 'incidents' that have happened over the last several years. In some cases there were even questions about the validity of the reports. I have intentionally shorted out Lithium cells, charged non-rechargeable Lithiums with car battery chargers, punched nails through them, put them into water and other things that have been reported to cause them to blow up but none of mine did anything at all. Are Lithium cells dangerous ? Oh yes - they can be for sure but normally you can get away with a lot and not have any problems. But once in a while they can  when they are handled wrong. What I would do is to recommend a department memo or even a class that teaches how to handle them and what not to do (like to make sure to turn off a light when it goes out or gets too dim) and to get across that these are like bullets - only dangerous under certain conditions. Ask your CO if he has ever seen a bullet sitting on a desk by itself in moderate temperature blow up? It's not the bullet that is dangerous it's how it is handled and when it's in a gun and how it is used that is dangerous. Same for these batteries - they only will vent with flame under certain conditions although it may be just a little more complex than the case of a bullet. Good luck in getting this resolved and do ask any questions here that will help you keep your lights - we have some true battery experts here (I'm not one of them). SilverFox is one of the real experts as are several other members here. Thanks for your service too.


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## VidPro (Mar 5, 2008)

hey thanks for the PICs , i love the pics.
is that a WTF battery


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## hopkins (Mar 5, 2008)

*ran into the room and saw that the owner's shirt was on fire and that the flashlight looked like a lit road flare. *
That is a lasting mental image I will not soon forget! 

Is'nt the flame temperature over 1000degrees F for this kind of disaster?


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## TKO (Mar 5, 2008)

After his gracious offer to help, I was able to arrange for five cells from the same lot to be mailed to SilverFox for evaluation. These cells are coming from the same box as the ones that vented.

After testing, the data will be sent to our Department (and posted here) along with a set of "suggestions" as to the proper feeding and operation of primary based lights carried by some of our members.

A big *thank you* to SilverFox for stepping up to the plate. :thumbsup:


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## 250 (Mar 5, 2008)

SilverFox said:


> Hello 250,
> 
> Your department should stock up on Panasonic, SureFire, RayOVac, Streamlight, Duracell, Energizer, Sanyo, or BatteryStation cells for multi cell use. The other cells are fine for single cell use.
> 
> Tom


Good advice Silverfox but this department needs to get going on a better issued light. Lets just say they do supply us with all the 5 D cells we need. Anything else, smaller belt carry lights (and batteries), is on the individual. At least there seems to be a bigger portion of the Department that recognizes the need for and carry a better light.

TKO looks like we are in the same Dept and hoping for the same outcome. Looks like you got the ball rolling with Silverfox. PM Sent.


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## LuxLuthor (Mar 5, 2008)

Great feedback. What has always worried me in posting cautions regarding Lithium Primary or Lithium Cobalt Secondary cells (mainly with charging) are all the people who have never heard of the proper care and use of the cells.. I'm imagining someone else who might have dropped the light in a pants pocket, and ended up with some early Christmas roasted chestnuts.


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## phreeflow (Mar 5, 2008)

TKO said:


> After his gracious offer to help, I was able to arrange for five cells from the same lot to be mailed to SilverFox for evaluation. These cells are coming from the same box as the ones that vented.
> 
> After testing, the data will be sent to our Department (and posted here) along with a set of "suggestions" as to the proper feeding and operation of primary based lights carried by some of our members.
> 
> A big *thank you* to SilverFox for stepping up to the plate. :thumbsup:



The department is in good hands...SilverFox is the man!!! :rock:It would also be a good idea if someone could post up some tips on how to handle lithium cells...how to charge, discharge, measure, etc. A lot of folks only know of their experiences charging NIMH and just throw their cells in a charger and forget about them.


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## Chuck289 (Mar 6, 2008)

Wow. I think I still have some of these batteries from way back when I didnt know any better. Glad im not using those any more. yep


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## hopkins (Mar 6, 2008)

quote:"Don't obstruct safety vents on batteries.
Encapsulation of lithium primary batteries will not allow
cell venting and can cause high pressure rupture."

Guess this means that we're all breaking a clear Mfg safety guideline
when we use lithium primaries in our flashlights. Isn't that what
a flashlight is :*Encapsulation * ?


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## TKO (Mar 6, 2008)

phreeflow said:


> The department is in good hands...SilverFox is the man!!! :rock:It would also be a good idea if someone could post up some tips on how to handle lithium cells...how to charge, discharge, measure, etc. A lot of folks only know of their experiences charging NIMH and just throw their cells in a charger and forget about them. I wish I knew enough to give expert advice but I only know enough to be dangerous so just stick to single cell lithium applications for now. :candle:


 
Here is a link to a bulletin that might be worth a read. A little simplistic, but covers some of the questions you raise.


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## phreeflow (Mar 6, 2008)

TKO said:


> Here is a link to a bulletin that might be worth a read. A little simplistic, but covers some of the questions you raise.



That's good info about primary Cr123's but I was referring more to information about the safe handling of RCR123A's (rechargeables)....like safely charging/discharging, measuring/testing cells, etc.


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## MorePower (Mar 6, 2008)

hopkins said:


> quote:"Don't obstruct safety vents on batteries.
> Encapsulation of lithium primary batteries will not allow
> cell venting and can cause high pressure rupture."
> 
> ...



Encapsulation refers to doing something like potting cells in epoxy, not putting them in a light, even if it does have o-rings, etc.


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## Mr Happy (Mar 6, 2008)

phreeflow said:


> That's good info about primary Cr123's but I was referring more to information about the safe handling of RCR123A's (rechargeables)....like safely charging/discharging, measuring/testing cells, etc.


This whole thread is about primary CR123A's. The handling of rechargeable RCR123A's is a different thread.


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## matrixshaman (Mar 6, 2008)

As LEO's I know you guys have enough to deal with at times without having to worry about exploding flashlights. With that in mind it might be good to try to find the 'better' lights (meaning better than Maglites and such) which run on one cell Lithiums now that new LED technology has so greatly increased the light output and runtimes. At least for lights that are carried on your person. It might also be good to find lights which have built in safety functions. Lights that are regulated to shut off when batteries go below a certain level will be helpful. Also lights like the HDS and Novatac which step down in brightness when the battery gets weaker and have thermal protection that will shutdown the light if things get to hot. Those kinds of features will help keep the whole flashlight thing from becoming too complex in a situation that may demand your attention elsewhere.


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## Katdaddy (Mar 6, 2008)

You have to remember folks, lights that use CR123's are becoming more available to people who do not know the dangers if the cells are not used properly. Some guy buys a nice light and some spares at Wal Mart for an ungodly price and thinks, "I'll check the internet and see if I can find a better price for these batteries". He buys these cheapies, proud of himself for the money he saved not knowing what can happen. Not everybody has the resources we do here.


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## phreeflow (Mar 6, 2008)

Katdaddy said:


> You have to remember folks, lights that use CR123's are becoming more available to people who do not know the danagers if the cells are not used properly. Some guy buys a nice light and some spares at Wal Mart for an ungodly price and thinks, "I'll check the internet and see if I can find a better price for these batteries". He buys these cheapies, proud of himself for the money he saved not knowing what can happen. Not everybody has the resources we do here.



My thoughts exactly. The next logical progression is for them to check online to see if they make rechargeable lithium batteries. Upon finding some, they buy a bunch of different "budget" batteries and a cheap charger not ever knowing the dangers they are dealing with.


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## TKO (Mar 6, 2008)

matrixshaman said:


> As LEO's I know you guys have enough to deal with at times without having to worry about exploding flashlights. With that in mind it might be good to try to find the 'better' lights (meaning better than Maglites and such) which run on one cell Lithiums now that new LED technology has so greatly increased the light output and runtimes. At least for lights that are carried on your person. It might also be good to find lights which have built in safety functions. Lights that are regulated to shut off when batteries go below a certain level will be helpful. Also lights like the HDS and Novatac which step down in brightness when the battery gets weaker and have thermal protection that will shutdown the light if things get to hot. Those kinds of features will help keep the whole flashlight thing from becoming too complex in a situation that may demand your attention elsewhere.


 
Agreed.

Our Department (4500+ members) is currently in the process of setting up a pilot program to field test a few LED lights. I will be in pilot program and will field test the lights and will have input into the eventual choice.:thumbsup: 

I have not been advised, yet, of the date the program will start, but I do know that it will be soon, as meetings are now taking place with different manufacturers. I can not mention which lights were chosen for evaluation until the pilot program begins, but will post in a new thread when the time comes.


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## RGB_LED (Mar 6, 2008)

Thanks TKO for posting this thread and for reaffirming what we have been seeing with cheap, imitation primary CR123 batteries - I suspect that we won't be hearing the last of such incidents as LED lights and CR123's become more mainstream.

Personally, I have only used SF, [email protected]@tion, [email protected] and [email protected]@sonic primaries (along with AW's RCR123s / 17670 / 18650) in my lights and, although CPF has only seen a few instances of this occurring (considering the number of lights that are out there), I for one will not be taking any chances.

I'm glad to hear that the trooper was not hurt and that the department is proactively doing a pilot program to field-test acceptable lights.


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## maxpowa (Mar 7, 2008)

Who says it's because of the batteries? The light went out, sounds like a short might have occured anywhere in the flashlight, batteries, circuits. I know many other batteries that would do similar things if shorted.


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## MorePower (Mar 7, 2008)

maxpowa said:


> Who says it's because of the batteries? The light went out, sounds like a short might have occured anywhere in the flashlight, batteries, circuits. I know many other batteries that would do similar things if shorted.



Primary lithium cells, when shorted, should not be able to start on fire. Properly designed and manufactured cells will shut down. Of course, manufacturing defects can occur, but with "good" cells that happens at a fairly low level.


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## Vikas Sontakke (Mar 7, 2008)

Shouldn't LEO be supplied with rechargeable lights with enough capacity to last the typical usage of a shift? I presume that's how they handle their handled radios and scanner i.e. it gets thrown on the charger at the end of the shift and/or the battery pack gets rotated at the start of the shift.

- Vikas


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## TKO (Mar 7, 2008)

Vikas Sontakke said:


> Shouldn't LEO be supplied with rechargeable lights with enough capacity to last the typical usage of a shift? I presume that's how they handle their handled radios and scanner i.e. it gets thrown on the charger at the end of the shift and/or the battery pack gets rotated at the start of the shift.
> 
> - Vikas


 
Yes, but the amount of time used varies wildly from shift to shift. Thinking back on my first 24 years on the road (makes my head hurt) I can not think of a shift where my total runtime exceeded 3-4 hours. 

Multi-level lights are a great start towards enhancing runtime with lower levels drawing less power while still allowing the user to ramp things up when necessary with upper level power.

Please note, also, that the light that went bang was a privately owned piece of equipment. 

I carry five privately owned lights on shift . . . modded SL-35X Streamlight along car seat, Dereelight CL1H LED in left jacket vest pocket, 2 x 18650 P91 on duty belt, Streamlight TLR-1 weapon light on gun belt and a SF leggo running a P90 mounted on the everpresent Colt 6520.:thumbsup: 

My issue lights don't go out on the road with me because they are .
That, hopefully will change in the near future.


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## Zenster (Mar 9, 2008)

The specific reasons for this particular failure have been given in various posts, but to bring it together in just one simple explanation.

CR123 primary cells in which they are used in pairs (or more) that are mismatched in their state of charge by more than 20% are a hazard.
Using a battery tester that determines the state of charge of a battery such as the ZTS units will help to keep the pairing of mismatched batteries from happening.

What happened in this particular instance is that not only was the light used for more than an hour constant use, but when the light quit working, the user evidently holstered it without realizing the switch was still on, therefore allowing the batteries to continue "melting down".

It has been shown by one of the guys here on CPF that you can make this kind of failure happen predictably by doing exactly what happened with the light in question, that is, start with mismatched (20%+) batteries, put a load on the pair (as what happens in a flashlight) and then just wait until the  happens.

Once this phenomenon is known and understood, it can easily be avoided by checking batteries beforehand (any batteries; not just the cheap ones) and making sure they are charge matched before loading in a flashlight.
Never assume that "new" batteries of any brand are in good shape; always check.


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## billw (Mar 11, 2008)

> You get what you pay for.


I'm pretty sick of seeing this as an over-generalization. You all buy Radio Shack CR123s at $10 each because they're clearly better than the $9 duracells from Walgreens? Gimme a break! It's patently obvious that you DON'T "get what you pay for." Yeah, it looks like some "absolute lowest price" style batteries have problems compared to brand name cells costing 10x as much, but there's a BIG gap between that and "you get what you pay for." Grr.
(and kudos to Surefire and similar who weed out the differences and provide reasonably priced "good" cells, and the people like Silverfox who dig into all the gritty details so we can make our own decisions!)


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## hopkins (Mar 13, 2008)

Well said billw! Help these CPF folks who have not thought it all the way thru.


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## dano (Mar 13, 2008)

I think everyone is missing a point: looking for a huge solution to a minor (very minor) problem.

How many lights have exploded due to Chinese made cells? 

How many lights have exploded due to mismatched cells?

How many single cell lights have exploded?

How many non-illumination devices have experienced a 123-cell explosion?

How many 123 cells are used as compared to a 123-cell explosion?

How many LED lights and Incan. lights have exploded (This is important as an incan. light will use less current vs. runtime)?

The actual numbers aren't known. Except for the internet stories, I have not seen an actual light explosion. I have no personal experience with being a victim of a cell explosion, and I have hundreds of 123 cells used in many lights of various brands.

Is there a need for a ZTS Tester? Should users stop using multi-celled lights?

The best advice I offer is: Use only U.S. or Japan made cells in a good quality light, and not fuss over what if type scenarios.

-dan


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## rastaman (Mar 14, 2008)

250 said:


> The quick story is that the *guy had been using the light and it failed. he probably thought it was the bulb and went on with his duties.* Some time later (which I can't remember, I;ll edit it tomorrow) the SF got hot and burnt his shirt.
> 
> Someone stated the batts were cheap ones from China. Any one have more specific details. I wold like to forward specific information to the investigating Sgt., unless TKO is closely involved. I almost made a dupe but luckily checked before I sent my post I would hate for the Department to forbid certain lights (Surefire) because they think they are unsafe.
> 
> Thanks



my theory: the guy was using his light. batts drained to a level where the bulb did not go on anymore. guy thought the light failed and put it in his holster without switching off the light. so the not so empty batt charged the empty batt and led to the explosion.

I used more then 100#s batterystation (the old ones from china) and around 50 WF from DX and had no problems till now.


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## bessiebenny (Mar 14, 2008)

There is no guarantee that expensive batteries will not explode the same.
So saying that this cheap battery is expected to explode is totally wrong.

It's just bad luck, possible misuse/ignorance, manufacturing defect etc.
Cheap batteries might increase the chance of first and last points though. =P


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## Zenster (Mar 15, 2008)

bessiebenny said:


> *There is no guarantee that expensive batteries will not explode the same.*
> So saying that this cheap battery is expected to explode is totally wrong.
> 
> It's just bad luck, possible misuse/ignorance, manufacturing defect etc.
> Cheap batteries might increase the chance of first and last points though. =P


 
Exactly. The specific issue has to do with using 20%+ voltage mismatched cells.
You can use the cheapest Chinese batteries you want and they'll not be a problem as long as they are matched... and, you can use the most expensive you can find and they will explode if they are NOT matched.

The one thing that does seem to be more typical is that Chinese batteries are more likely to come NIB sometimes mismatched than do big brand batteries such as Surefire, Duracell, etc.

That's why I'll say again that the only way to stay safe is to check the condition of ALL your CR123's before using them, no matter who makes them.


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## SilverFox (Mar 15, 2008)

Hello Zenster,

I might point out that several efforts were made to get "premium" cells that were purposely mismatched to "rapidly vent with flame," but they were all unsuccessful.

I am not sure what that tells us, other than under the test conditions the premium cells did not vent regardless of the degree of mismatch.

Tom


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## Illum (Mar 15, 2008)

SilverFox said:


> Hello Zenster,
> 
> I might point out that several efforts were made to get "premium" cells that were purposely mismatched to "rapidly vent with flame," but they were all unsuccessful.
> 
> ...



It seems whenever theres an explosion the discussions concerning reverse-charging, wall shorting, etc pops up despite actual tests [weren't there a video thread somewhere?] stated otherwise. I think instead of pondering about the possibilities of venting due to multi-cell combinations I think its better to discuss individual cells integrity.

notice in all of the cell explosion cases we have experienced thus far on the forum only one cell vented, whether its single cell, two-cell, or 6 cell [yes theres an SF M6 explosion thread somewhere]. Theoretically at that degree of pressure and temperature it would have a probability of triggering other cells to vent should it not?.

Its a bit irrelevant but I think it may be a good idea to review the P1D explosion thread with another unknown brand i question: PM powerstation
https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/169038





I think its reasonable to say there will always be "weak-link" cells escape QC every once awhile and end up in the market. With proper testing before use the danger can be minimized or even eliminated:thumbsup:. I believe there are "weak-link" cells in surefire/streamlight and all the reputable lines but due to better design they have greater tolerances than the ones that has vented to this day [WF, PM, Cyclops, etc]. This may also explain why the numerous attempts to  batterystations have been rather fruitless except for the 1-2 successes


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## HarryN (Mar 17, 2008)

Hi, I would like to point out something that has not been noted here regarding the actual incident - the need for post event medical treatment.

Regardless that the user did not receive obvious injury from the "venting with flames", they were exposed to the fumes, which contain HF (hydrogen Fluoride) or one of its close cousins. This is an insideous exposure which does not cause obvious damage for days, but instead works from the inside out.

If you are exposed to a CR 123 cell which vents, then you have to do a "real" cleanup of the physical area, AND go to a hospital with a burn ward for treatment for HF exposure. At a minimum this is a serous wash down, calcium (something) cream, and in the case of inhalation, ideally injections. 

TKO - please call up your friend / commander and have him direct his officer to visit his physician for real medical advice on this. This also goes for the other officer that helped put out the flaming shirt.


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## Mr Happy (Mar 17, 2008)

Just in case anyone is too alarmed, the risks from a burning CR123A cell are quite moderate.

The cells don't actually have hydrogen fluoride in their chemical make-up; the HF gas in the fumes comes from combustion of the small amounts of PTFE used in the cell construction. By way of comparison you could also get HF exposure by overheating and smoking a non-stick pan.

While it is quite wise to seek medical advice if you have inhaled any fumes, there is no need to panic about impending death. As is ever the case, the warnings about such things always err on the side of caution. Significant exposure to HF gas will likely produce symptoms such as pain, swelling and breathing difficulties.


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## HarryN (Mar 17, 2008)

Hi Mr. Happy, Please don't take my sensitivity on the subject as anything against you, but I am kind of a safety nut. In particular, please read the first one - post 252 - a first hand account of a very similar situation, and a man in real pain.

https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/120888 see post 252

https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/124776

https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/128059

I agree that the number of events is very small, and my family uses Li based cells all the time - but - if an event does happen, it requires attention. Sort of like a house fire - hardly ever happens, but when it does, you need to take some specific steps.


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## Mr Happy (Mar 17, 2008)

HarryN said:


> Hi Mr. Happy, Please don't take my sensitivity on the subject as anything against you, but I am kind of a safety nut. In particular, please read the first one - post 252 - a first hand account of a very similar situation, and a man in real pain.


OK, I see your point. Not all of us may be as sensitive to the dangers as others. Let me revise my advice in response to your comments.

There were two things that caused injury in post 252: the force of the explosion and flying fragments, and the chemical fumes afterwards.

It is a fact that confinement of a deflagration very easily turns it into an explosion. A metal tube containing deflagrating batteries is a bit like a pipe bomb. To avoid this risk the only reliable course of action, unfortunately, is not to use primary lithium cells in flashlights, especially not sealed metal flashlights. It is not a message many will wish to hear, but that is the message.

Secondly the fumes and chemical residue around the damaged batteries. These fumes and chemicals are dangerous. If a battery vents with flame or explodes indoors, open all the windows immediately and go outside into the fresh air. On no account go back into the room until the fumes have cleared. When you do go back to clean up the mess, do not touch battery residue with your bare hands. Wear rubber gloves and clean everything thoroughly with copious amounts of water. Rinse and flush through the torch with running water in a utility sink until it is completely clean. Sponge clean and wipe dry the floor or other contaminated surfaces twice or three times.

Thirdly, if you do breathe fumes or come into contact with leaked battery residue on your bare skin, wash it off immediately with running water for several minutes and seek medical advice. Tell the doctors exactly what kind of battery exploded.

Apply common sense and be safe.


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## Planterz (Mar 18, 2008)

So is it the battery that explodes, or is it that the venting causes overpressuring within the flashlight tube that causes the the whole thing to go off (like putting dry ice in a 2liter bottle)?


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## VidPro (Mar 18, 2008)

Planterz said:


> So is it the battery that explodes, or is it that the venting causes overpressuring within the flashlight tube that causes the the whole thing to go off (like putting dry ice in a 2liter bottle)?


 
not allowing the vents to releace or "blocking the vents" allows the pressure to get higher before it will releace.
specially in lights that literally "pump up" the air pressure with sliding o-rings, and duel o-ring seals.
Vents want there to be "ambient pressure" on the outside to releace, any pressure above that and a greater ammount of pressure could exist prior to its ability to releace the pressure.

BUT when a primary goes thermal overload, via the many wayss that can occur, it still can be very rapid, *reguardless* of "blocking any vents" . 

its not like a li-ion which has a vent that works in lower pressures, and even can have an anode disconnect, stopping things from continuing when there is gas. With a li-ion and its TYPE of vents, it will far less prefer to be in a air-pumped sealed thing.

then of course you have to add to all of that, Some of the people making this stuff, dont even put IN any releace capability, some dont have any disconnect, and some are not made in a way that it is "as safe" as "military" and "american sue you" requires to meet safety standards.

EX: i have ni-mhy cells made in china, and they have NO releace, and exploded when overcharged, Enloop cells have a rubber top seal that releaces on built up pressure.
Sony and LG li-ion cells have full disconnect anode releace on any gass pressure, and Energyser primaries have built in safety (but can still go ballistic)

Notes: Mr Happy said "This whole thread is about primary CR123A's. The handling of rechargeable RCR123A's is a different thread."
and you should watch closely what i said, cause i refered to a whole array of chemistry in this post, just because internal pressure is important.


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## hopkins (Mar 21, 2008)

I'll suggest a modification to CR123 driven flashlights to minimize the 
explosive nature of 'vent with flame' : drill holes in flashlight body
to allow the gas to escape. Simple. Some people have speculated
that if the internal pressure is never allowed to increase the CR123
V-w-F is minimized.
Does anyone know of a way to waterproof such -small diameter- holes yet still allow venting if it should occur?


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## Monocrom (Mar 23, 2008)

Glad to hear that no one was seriously hurt.

Wonder how many more threads like this one will keep popping up; thanks to cheap, No-name, CR123 cells. :shakehead


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## TKO (Mar 27, 2008)

*"We're from the government and we're here to help"* :duh2:

Turns out that the US Consumer Product Safety Commission paid a visit, grabbed up the batteries that were to be mailed to SilverFox, and whisked them away for testing. From what I was able to gather, they left the impression that they are taking the issue very seriously, and there may be a recall in the near future.


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## Monocrom (Mar 27, 2008)

TKO said:


> *"We're from the government and we're here to help"* :duh2:
> 
> Turns out that the US Consumer Product Safety Commission paid a visit, grabbed up the batteries that were to be mailed to SilverFox, and whisked them away for testing. From what I was able to gather, they left the impression that they are taking the issue very seriously, and there may be a recall in the near future.


 
Why do I get the feeling that SilverFox would have gotten far more conclusive results than the Commission. :ironic:

Thank you for keeping us updated.


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## NA8 (Mar 28, 2008)

TKO said:


> *"We're from the government and we're here to help"* :duh2:
> 
> Turns out that the US Consumer Product Safety Commission paid a visit, grabbed up the batteries that were to be mailed to SilverFox, and whisked them away for testing. From what I was able to gather, they left the impression that they are taking the issue very seriously, and there may be a recall in the near future.



Did they also confiscate all the other batteries in the original batch or just your stash for SilverFox ?


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## kosPap (Mar 28, 2008)

Katdaddy said:


> You have to remember folks, lights that use CR123's are becoming more available to people who do not know the dangers if the cells are not used properly.


 
CR123s ????? What about the AA & AAA LITHIUM ones????


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## TKO (Mar 28, 2008)

NA8 said:


> Did they also confiscate all the other batteries in the original batch or just your stash for SilverFox ?




I am working on finding a couple more from the same lot . . . I don't think they got them all.

I was informed that, if any are located, they will be mailed directly to SilverFox.:thumbsup:

I am, also, trying to ID and contact the lead investigator with the USCPSC.


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## SilverFox (Apr 3, 2008)

Hello TKO,

I received 2 cells and proceeded with testing them.

Here are the notes I took:

WF CR123 cell testing 4/2/08.

From TKO, sent by ----

Received 2 batteries individually sealed in plastic.

Unable to locate capacity, so will guess 1300 mAh.

Tests on ZTS = 0% for both cells. Test on Ansmann = 0% for both cells and 1.14 and 1.71 volts under load.

Open circuit voltage check 2.96 and 3.00 volts.

Weight 15.6 g and 16 g. SureFire and BatteryStation cells come in at 16.5 g for comparison.

Only seem to be available from eBay and Deal Extreme. Low pricing of around 1.40/cell, including shipping. SureFire cells run 1.75/cell, not including shipping, for comparison.

AC Internal resistance, 0.966 and 1.282 ohms. By contrast SureFire and BatteryStation cells show 0.215, 0.215, 0.212, 0.216, and 0.217 ohms.

CBA load testing.

Cell 1.
Unable to burn off passivation layer and withstand a 1 amp load, so I dropped the load to 0.5 amps. Normal cut off voltage is 1.0 volts, but because of the unusual behavior of these cells I dropped it to 0.1 volts. Voltage dropped to 0.7 volts and recovered to 0.9 volts. Then dropped down to 0.2 volts and recovered to 1.36 volts. Cell temperature is over 108 F. Usually cell temperature is in the 80 - 90 F range when testing at 0.5 amps. 303 mAh of capacity down to 0.1 volts. 3 mAh down to 1.0 volts.

Cell 2.
Test at 0.5 amps. Voltage dropped to 1.8 volts, then recovered to 2.34 volts. Cell temperature is over 108 F. This cell, except for the initial part where the passivation layer burned off, has a more normal discharge curve. 889 mAh of capacity down to 0.1 volts. 657 mAh down to 1.0 volts.

Here is the graph of the data:







As you can see, there is quite a difference in performance, capacity and voltage under load between the two cells. Remember both cells were individually sealed when I received them and were considered “new.” The “Made in USA” cell shows characteristics similar to cells with the SureFire, Streamlight, Panasonic, BatteryStation (in 2007 BatteryStation changed the manufacture of its cells from China to a plant in the US), Duracell, and Energizer brands. 

While this is speculation on my part, and only based on a sample of 2 cells, I think I can show a strong case for a “rapid vent with flame” incident if these two cells were put in an incandescent flashlight and the flashlight was left on for a period of time after the lamp dimmed down. Because of the passivation layer burn off, the cells are running at a higher temperature. Using these two cells, I think it is obvious that cell 2 would try to reverse charge cell 1.

To understand more about the passivation layer, there is a good discussion of it at this website.

http://www.electrochempower.com/Support/TechnicalInformation/Passivation.htm 

How can this be avoided?

We have found that the US and Japan “name brand” cells are more consistent from cell to cell and don’t seem to have these problems. One solution is to only use these cells.

We have also found that the ZTS tester ( http://www.ztsinc.com/mbt1.html ) is capable of weeding out cells that have problems. If a new cell doesn’t test out at 100% on the tester, don’t use it in a multi cell light. The ZTS tester puts a pulsed load on the cell and measures the voltage under load. A cell that has a passivation layer shows up as having less, or no, capacity.

Another solution involves training. When your light goes dim, immediately remove the batteries from it. This eliminates any confusion as to whether the light has been turned off or not.

When I purchase cells for my lights, I always get a few extra and run some tests on them. This way I can check for cell to cell consistency and know what to expect from them. This should not be necessary, but if the State Troopers have some extra budget, they may consider having an officer trained in battery testing…

I would speculate that more of the WF cells behave like cell 2, than cell 1. Once again, this can also lead to an imbalance as the cells are discharged, but the imbalance will be less. However, both cells heated up more than “normal” indicating problems within the cell. The WF cells may work OK in single cell lights, but I would stay away from them in multi cell applications.

If you happen to get any information from the US Consumer Product Safety Commission, I would be interested in looking it over. Hopefully they can come up with more samples to check out which should yield more reliable statistics.

I hope this helps, and if I can be of further assistance, you know hot to get in touch with me.

Tom


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## TKO (Apr 3, 2008)

Tom,

Great work!

I will begin pressing the USCPSC for information the beginning of next week. 

I wish I could have provided more cells, but if the two you tested are indicative of the rest, I would certainly agree that multiple cell applications are a crap shoot at best.:shakehead


Best Regards,

Rick


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## NA8 (Apr 4, 2008)

+1 :goodjob:


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## NoFair (Apr 4, 2008)

My father works with lithium and Li-ions and among the scientist the WF batteries are know as "WildFire" batteries so they have a pretty bad rep 

This incident was known in the Army/LEO community shortly after it happened

Sverre


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