# Chameleon flashlight problems



## NewBie (Jan 29, 2006)

For users who own the Chameleon flashlight, be warned there is a problem when running them in the full brightness mode.

I'd advise going over and looking at the support place and getting all the details, as you could blow up your flashlight. 

If you do blow it up, it will cost you 35 dollars plus labor to get it fixed. There is no mention of shipping fees, so I'm not sure if they will assess that too.


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## Dogliness (Jan 29, 2006)

Where is the support place to find the details?


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## wallyrulz (Jan 29, 2006)

:duh2:

Did YOU buy one? Why spend time worrying about something that does not affect you? :thinking:


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## Dogliness (Jan 29, 2006)

I have not bought one. However, I have reserved one with Lighthound. In addition, I am surprised that this particular flashlight would have a problem running on the brightest mode, and thus am interested to learn more.


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## SilverFox (Jan 29, 2006)

Hello Newbie,

It looks like the R-CR123 batteries may save the day. They seem to be shutting down before things get too hot, but in testing things out it looks like there may be at least one dead circuit board. Now, if someone puts an 18650 in, that may be a problem.

I believe the highest setting was put in with the instructions that it should be used as a flash light, and not used for a continuous run.

Tom


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## IonFire (Jan 29, 2006)

Maybe, just maybe he a has a deal with someone in the works to buy thier used Chammie from them?

I would hazard a guess, if this was a defect, that Mr.B would have emails dispatched to the the proper customers pdq.

I do not own one,... yet, but i am curious aswell, sure as hell not worrying over it lol. 


IF


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## SilverFox (Jan 29, 2006)

Here is a link to the thread discussing this.

Tom


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## Dogliness (Jan 29, 2006)

Thank you IonFire. [font=&quot][/font]


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## nethiker (Jan 29, 2006)

I do not believe you need to own something to have interest. There are many here who enjoy reading all about lights they can only dream about.


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## IonFire (Jan 29, 2006)

No thanks needed Dogliness.
I seen you have a Mr.B creation already, lucky guy.:wave: 


And as far this goes, I guess i am concerned for this light(Still not worried), and Mr.B, a pretty decent fella from my conversations with him, builds nice lights too, or so i am told. 



IF


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## ernsanada (Jan 29, 2006)

NewBie said:


> For users who own the Chameleon flashlight, be warned there is a problem when running them in the full brightness mode.
> 
> I'd advise going over and looking at the support place and getting all the details, as you could blow up your flashlight.
> 
> If you do blow it up, it will cost you 35 dollars plus labor to get it fixed. There is no mention of shipping fees, so I'm not sure if they will assess that too.



Where is your proof a Chameleon blew up?


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## IonFire (Jan 29, 2006)

If ya read the link bud, it does state,

That in short, it can be used on high for brief periods as it was built, but if run too long, theres a chance of thermal damage to LED and board, in effect burning out the board and costing to replace it.

So, it as built, has a wicked turbo mode, but not for sustained usage.

Blow up= Burnt out, i believe.

IF


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## Wilsonite (Jan 29, 2006)

I'm not trying to be a horse's backside here, but remember this, rated current on a lux III is 750mA. They state that they can handle 1A with shortened lifespan. Yes, I am well aware that there are some guys that have ran a certain III to 1.4 1.6A. They are the exception and not the rule... If you are running it at 1200 (or any level for that matter), and the LED goes up in smoke (open), it will probably take the board out with it due to the switching action of the regulator. I am glad that 1200 is there, I would probably use it once or twice "just to see" then set and remain on the 750 table.

p.s. there are lots of lights that I cannot afford, that I still read on the development and technical specs of... 

Respectfully,


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## NewBie (Jan 29, 2006)

Well, I certainly *do* hope they figure something out, as it appears as though this light was promised to run the K2 full tilt, which is 1500mA.

From the threads, what I see- the K2 is a future upgrade option the user could do to the Chameleon. The K2 has even a higher Vf, and thus it will pull more current off the battery than a Lux III will, at the same current out to the LED. Up to 4.71V, at 1500mA is what the K2 is rated at, in other words 7 Watts. Once you figure in the loss of the converter, you'll be pulling quite a bit more than this out of the cell.

Right now, if my memory serves correctly, at 1000mA, a typical J bin sits around 3.5V Vf. This means in that the light is only pushing 3.5W out, and up around 4 Watts for 1200mA.

Yeah, as Ion-Fire mentioned, there is a warning now, and even a pre-determined price so folks can pay to get their flashlights fixed.

I sure hope new flashaholics don't get a bad taste in their hobby over this.

What a bummer.


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## Geologist (Jan 30, 2006)

I have seen no mentioned of any of the Chameleon lights that have had issues. People have began to receive the lights in high numbers and have begun to experiment with them. The one thing that many of us are learning is that the light is pushing the limits of the R123 cell. Since the light is REGULATED, the ammount of power required from the battery is extreme, especially if you are pushing 1 amp or 1.2 amps to the emitter (which will mean even higher current loads on the battery). There is no defect or problem - but many R123 cells are not up to the challenge. 

The Level 5 current table was not even announced until shortly before the first batch of lights shipped. All users were advised that this is an experimental level and to be used with caution. Like a previous poster said, even feeding 1000mA to the emitter is already pushing the specifications. Pushing 1.2A for long periods of time is like having a nice sports car that *CAN* go 8000rpm - and then driving around all day at those higher levels.

For all the Chameleon owners, the biggest learning curve (for me, especially as a LC user) is getting used to the behavior of the regulated vs. direct drive light.

Newbie - I am not sure where you arrived at the "If you do blow it up, it will cost you 35 dollars plus labor to get it fixed. There is no mention of shipping fees, so I'm not sure if they will assess that too." and also "light was promised to run the K2 full tilt". If you have a reference for these statements, please advise.

I own one of the lights - and although a bit different than my LC - it is great light. Having the option to use the various current tables allows you to run the emitter at specifications or higher as necessary (or even lower ). Can't wait until the Otokoyama has the battery tubes ready!


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## Geologist (Jan 30, 2006)

Oh and btw - the Chameleon is designed for H bin Vf emitters (or better), espeically at the higher current levels. Anyone got a spare UXOH or UWOH handy?  I will also accept UXOG if H not available!


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## NewBie (Jan 30, 2006)

Geologist said:


> I have Newbie - I am not sure where you arrived at the "If you do blow it up, it will cost you 35 dollars plus labor to get it fixed. There is no mention of shipping fees, so I'm not sure if they will assess that too."
> ...
> 
> If you have a reference for these statements, please advise.



You are part of the team there, are you not?

As well as the moderator, who is running the thread, and the info is under your name at the top of the thread, for Part 4.

It was your very own post, which included "*UPDATE 1-27-06*"

Both for the 35 dollar replacement fee, and for the plus the labor comment.

The addition to your post was from the Commander's post, reply 162 in that thread, on January 27, 2006, 10:49:10 pm.

Furthermore, the Commander says that it is likely that future boards will only support the CT4 mode at 1000mA, in reply number 200, 12:28:15 am, as well as in an earlier reply.

Quit playing dumb on this one please.


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## IonFire (Jan 30, 2006)

Hey Geo 

This is what Newbie seen, then i seen in the link.

"So there we have it: these are George's babies - babies to which I convinced him to feed Steroids - and therefore should your Chameleon malfunction it will be inspected by George. If it is determined the switcher chip went south, a whole new board needs to be purchased. In George's own words, "...I have NO way to rework the boards if they fail...due to abuse of the switcher..."

A new board (as long as the supply lasts) will be $35 _plus_ labor in switch-failure cases. And there is also a great deal of intense thought being given now to making all subsequent boards - used to replace any CT5 boards with failed switchers - with just FOUR Current Tables as originally planned.

To summarize, all Chameleons will still come with the alluring yet dangerously intoxicating CT5. But if CT5 is used overzealously and the switcher goes, replacements and the labor to install them will not only be charged for, but may be in the form of Chameleon drivers with just the Four CTs, maxing out at 1000mA as originally intended...

So it'll be like letting users have their over-the-top, "Turbo Mode" Current Table (CT5), accompanied by clear warning that it should only be used in short bursts"


Peace


IF


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## Geologist (Jan 30, 2006)

OK - In reference to repair costs, you are refering to George's post about people who constantly abuse the experimental current table 5. George's comment "due to abuse of the switcher..." is probably key statement.

Since apparently you are a regular reader over at Flashlight-Forums.com, I would assume you also know that AGAIN, the current table 5 was not announced until right before the first lights shipped. All people who have invested in this new light (including myself) had no knowlede of this extra current table. When it was announced, it was also advised that this is an experimental current table and to use at your own risk. Like my previous sports car example, it is akin to receiving a free nitro kit the day you get the car. They will say - be careful! To expect free repair bills when you smoke a board or a emitter because of ABUSE is pretty funny. Also as a regular reader, you would also be aware, that most of not all people want the experimental level 5 level left on their light - for experimental and future possibilities.

You start this thread stating "there is a problem when running them in the full brightness mode". To be a bit fair, maybe you could clarify your initial post to indicate that overuse of the free experimental current level (which is overdriving the emitter by about 60%) would not be advised as it would be possible to do damage to the light. 

Of course you could say that about any light that has full regulation and the ability to change the current going to the emitter.

Yes, I am an active member of Flashlight-Forums.com and a section moderator. Is that a bad thing?

I didn't know you were so interested in the Chameleon!


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## Codeman (Jan 30, 2006)

Those charges only apply if the user replaces the Luxeon with a higher than H Vf, or if it is determined that the damage was done due to long runtimes on the highest drive level (1200mA).

I have already subjected my Chameleon to a continuous test of 40 different cells, one right after the other, all at the 1200mA level. The last few 123's were allowed to run until shutdown , which took 7-10 minutes each. A couple of these were done on an ice pack to help protect the light. Then, I subjected it to another ten runs of 2+ minutes on each of the larger 150A/168S/168A variety.

I had incorrectly thought that I had damaged my Chameleon, but it looks like the light is fine.

Given the nature of the high levels of current regulation, which I now understand pretty well, I think the policy is a very reasonable one.

Finding 123 cells that can run on the 1200mA level (which is current at the LED, the current drawn from the cell is even higher) for more than a minute or so isn't easy, but that's an issue of the cells, not of the light. And the fact that they do drop out quickly is actually protecting the board from damage.


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## NewBie (Jan 30, 2006)

Geologist said:


> OK - In reference to repair costs, you are refering to George's post about people who constantly abuse the experimental current table 5. George's comment "due to abuse of the switcher..." is probably key statement.
> 
> You start this thread stating "there is a problem when running them in the full brightness mode". To be a bit fair, maybe you could clarify your initial post to indicate that overuse of the free experimental current level (which is overdriving the emitter by about 60%) would not be advised as it would be possible to do damage to the light.
> 
> ...




Well, there is an issue if you run it in CT5, and folks really should know about it, regardless.

You knew all the stuff above, about replacement costs and all, as you put it in your own post.

It is good to know that CT5 is now considered and experimental mode, and that in future revisions, the level may be removed.

There have been posts deleted/modified in the thread to smooth things over, and you know that.

There was the reference to failed boards that for some reason is now gone.


Anyhow, the whole point was just to let folks know to be careful, nothing wrong with that. I'm sorry you feel a need to drag this in the mud.


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## Geologist (Jan 30, 2006)

NewBie said:


> Well, there is an issue if you run it in CT5, and folks really should know about it, regardless.
> 
> You knew all the stuff above, about replacement costs and all, as you put it in your own post.
> 
> ...



Again Newbie, from the begining, CT5 was considered experimental/use at own risk. From the beginning, users were advised of this. Not sure why you consider that it is good that the CT5 will be removed. IF you owned one of the lights, it is a user choice to activate the table. You don't want it, don't use it. I think everyone says "leave it in" . Why would you want the table removed?

What failed boards are you talking about? Really - I know of no such occurence. If it something you want to take up via pm, then by all means pm here on CPF or over at flashlight-forums.com. 

Geo


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## Codeman (Jan 30, 2006)

NewBie said:


> Well, there is an issue if you run it in CT5, and folks really should know about it, regardless.
> 
> You knew all the stuff above, about replacement costs and all, as you put it in your own post.
> 
> ...



Looks to me like Geo's trying to drag it back OUT of the mud. Re your accusations, PUOSU.


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## xochi (Jan 30, 2006)

I respect Newbies mention of the issue. I also find it irritating that everyone has chosen to question his motives which are really irrelevent since he's raised a legitimate issue. 

There is no doubt that chameleons will find their way onto cpf b/s/t and potential purchasers should know that it is in the nature of the chameleon to provide a means of abuseing the LED should the end user choose to. Those who buy used chameleons will have no way of knowing just how much abuse the previous owner has heaped on the led .

Really though, Mr. B has created his retail flashlight forum elsewhere. The bandwidth here has benefited from the lack of volunteers lineing up to hold Mr. B's "flashlight". Newbie has given some legitimate info and it should just have been left at that. We can bring up tons of malice , once again, if we want to but since everyone seems to be giving each other space, why bother? Can't we all just get along?


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## Geologist (Jan 30, 2006)

To all-

Agreed. However I am not a fan of hit and run posts - especially in a discussion forum. The statements that were made in the initial post would lead people who haven't read any details about the light that the light is somehow defective by design and because it is defective, users will be chargered money to fix it.

Additionally, comments are made that users have somehow been misled about the light and that the light is not as advertised. Accusations are made that there are defective lights in users' hands and statements are made to insuinuate that the light is somehow not up to snuff. However innocent it may appear, this is the mud slinging or trolling as others would call it.

This is a discussion forum where people discuss stuff. If you do not wish to post - it is your right. If you want to post opinions be prepared to defend them. If you want to accuse people of doing things, then be prepared to substantiate. If you want to drop little innocent misleading statements to an attempt to somehow ruin someone's work or reputation - then please go elsewhere - it is no constructive.


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## Codeman (Jan 30, 2006)

xochi said:


> I respect Newbies mention of the issue. I also find it irritating that everyone has chosen to question his motives which are really irrelevent since he's raised a legitimate issue.
> 
> There is no doubt that chameleons will find their way onto cpf b/s/t and potential purchasers should know that it is in the nature of the chameleon to provide a means of abuseing the LED should the end user choose to. Those who buy used chameleons will have no way of knowing just how much abuse the previous owner has heaped on the led .
> 
> Really though, Mr. B has created his retail flashlight forum elsewhere. The bandwidth here has benefited from the lack of volunteers lineing up to hold Mr. B's "flashlight". Newbie has given some legitimate info and it should just have been left at that. We can bring up tons of malice , once again, if we want to but since everyone seems to be giving each other space, why bother? Can't we all just get along?



The only malice I've seen are the accusations of modified/deleted posts without providing any proof. As long as that happens, no we can't just get along. Making such accusations certainly isn't "giving each other space".

This thread reminds me of someone wanting to give a hug while holding a knife, then saying something nice, as if that will somehow make the knife and it's damage disappear. Hogwash!


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## nethiker (Jan 30, 2006)

Nice post xochi. Agreed. 

Important info has been brought to cpf. It has been clarified by those in the know. To continue by questioning motives and integrety will only get the thread locked and then we all lose out.


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## xochi (Jan 30, 2006)

This Thread is a good candidate for a lock.


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## 270winchester (Jan 30, 2006)

Newbie's original post:

For users who own the Chameleon flashlight, be warned there is a problem when running them in the full brightness mode.

I'd advise going over and looking at the support place and getting all the details, as you could blow up your flashlight.

If you do blow it up, it will cost you 35 dollars plus labor to get it fixed. There is no mention of shipping fees, so I'm not sure if they will assess that too.

Newbie is hardly the hit-and-run type(believe me I know), xochi is right, he merely led us know about an issue that exists on a light that otherwise would only been promoted by the private sellers who may or may not supply the buyer with all the necessary info. This "Chameleon" has the same type if issue as the Lion Cub(whose high current at top level wasn't advatised as a suggested long-use mode but always used as a benchmark against other top custom lights). Now I assume the performance of the lights running at level 5 here is not used as promoted as a selling point? The "late" announcement would no doubt boost the resale value of the light and benefit those who already bought the light? Am I the only one that sees a dejaveau here?


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## Geologist (Jan 30, 2006)

OK - but then a better explanation is in order. He is refering to using the light on the experimental level. I have tried multiple times to clarify that.

What if If I said there is a problem with the INVOA X5? If you put rechargable R123s in the light it will blow up and if they find out you did that, then you will have to pay to get it fixed? Is that really a problem? Also, if you run 12 V directly to your Lux V emitter then it will blow up and Lumineds will not fix it.... Or if you are buying a QIII from another user - whose responsibility is it to ask if it has been used with a R123 the whole time and the crappy boost circuit may go at any moment?

I encourage discussion - I just want to make sure that when a generic statement is made that if I know the details, that proper clarifications are made and no one (especially the newbie with no experience) is misled.

Also just for reference in initial testing - the CT 4/5 and CT5/5(experimental!) make the LC level 5 look tame. The circuit's ability to deliver current to the emitter is pretty wicked - that is why everyone has been warned to use especially CT5 with care 1.2 amps TO THE EMITTER is a lot - the LC would rarely get that close (especially for any extended time) to that much sustained current to the emitter.


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## Geologist (Jan 30, 2006)

And no - I don't think this thread should be locked - I think that if people want to know about the light and all the details - they should be able to read, post, ask questions.

Anybody's feelings getting hurt?


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## xochi (Jan 30, 2006)

Yes. You made me cry:mecry:...

Everbody is yelling and I had to take an extra pill and I just don't know if I can cope. 

Please stop all the bitterness. Just let us love you and stop being such a meanie.


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## Geologist (Jan 30, 2006)

xochi said:


> Yes. You made me cry:mecry:...
> 
> Everbody is yelling and I had to take an extra pill and I just don't know if I can cope.
> 
> Please stop all the bitterness. Just let us love you and stop being such a meanie.



yA gotta share the love!


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## IonFire (Jan 30, 2006)

Geologist said:


> yA gotta share the love!


 
As long as your not charging for it Geo,
There are laws against that kind of thing ya know.:buddies: 

IF


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## Geologist (Jan 30, 2006)

IonFire said:


> As long as your not charging for it Geo,
> There are laws against that kind of thing ya know.:buddies:
> 
> IF



not here!


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## NewBie (Jan 30, 2006)

Codeman said:


> The only malice I've seen are the accusations of modified/deleted posts without providing any proof. As long as that happens, no we can't just get along. Making such accusations certainly isn't "giving each other space".




Geesh guys, take a chill pill.

There was a now removed post I made, under the name kholrabirules, where I tried to offer the suggestion in the thread that the option for returning the Chameleon in order to have the CT5 mode removed from the code (for those that want it) would be a great idea. 

Since it would take possibly 5 seconds for the reprogramming itself, via the quickly and easily accessable programming header, most the real cost would be in the shipping.

Another suggestion is that the time in the CT5 mode could be limited in order to avoid possible damage. It would be a very simple code change to do this.

Maybe I should stop trying to be helpful.

Goodness Gracious!


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## Sigman (Jan 30, 2006)




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## Codeman (Jan 30, 2006)

Pill taken. Thanks for the suggestion NewBie.


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## LowWorm (Jan 30, 2006)

Thanks NewBie, for pointing out this information to us. Being informed about a flashlight's true performance and support is helpful. If some people can't handle the truth, don't shoot the messenger. All are still free to buy whatever they'd like. But NewBie's been around the flashlight scene a lot longer than most currently posting on this thread, and I'm guessing that his experience would be of help to many like me who are still relatively new to the practices of different custom flashlight makers.


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## xochi (Jan 30, 2006)

Hey Newb,
How in hades did you come up with the name "kholrabirules"? Sorry, OT, I know....


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## Geologist (Jan 30, 2006)

Well LowWorm - I value anyone's opinion - especially when it is based upon experience. If someone has no direct experience with the light, then his comments are either conjecture or based on others comments - which starts the cycle again. Newbie has been a CPF member longer than many of us - it doesn't necessarily give him omniscient powers. The truth is based on fact - Newbie stated "there is a problem when running them in the full brightness mode". What does that mean? Hmmm. This new light has 5 current tables (4 normal and 1 experimental), each with 5 brightness levels. Did he specify in detail what the issue was? no - just that "you could blow up your flashlight" and when that occurs, "it will cost you 35 dollars plus labor to get it fixed". Now if he is doing everyone a favor and warning all these newbies about the dangers of exploding flashlights, then you would think that there would be more details to his warning.

Let me rephrase things a bit and see if I can add more information to help those people who are new to the community:

Geologist's post:
For those who are not aware, there is a new light from Mr. Bulk et al, called the Chameleon. THis light is a bit different from many other lights in that in addition to the full regulation that it provides, it gives the user a choice of current tables and within each current table, 5 different levels of brightness. The light was originally planned to come with 4 current tables (CT), maximum current to the emitter being 1000mA. An annoucement was made as the first units were being shipped that a 5th current table would also be included in the user interface to allow the electronics to deliver 1200mA to the emitter. Now remember, that nominal current to a Luxeon III is what ~750mA? So 1200mA is serious overdrive for the emitter and is pushing the limits of the electronics to the max and for smaller batteries the light can suck more than the batteries may be able to deliver. It has been reccomended multiple times now to use the CT5/5 sparingly. Abusing the light on this extra experimental light could cause damage to the emiter, the switcher. If you are abusing the light and damage the light due to abuse, then the regular warranty would not apply. If you for some reason you do not have the self control to not use current table 5 all the time, then you can send a message to the light creators, and see if they can omit this extra experimental feature for you.

Now is that a bit more concise?

btw I also like kholrabi. I am not sure why some others feel they need to register under another identity than their own to visit Flashlight-Forums.com - especially if one's reputation is in such high regard in the flashlight community and there is a sincere desire to help others. OTOH, If one is making the same types of """innocent""" comments that usually lead to disruption in an otherwise peaceful discussion, then I would understand why one chooses not to do this, Of course there is a word for this.


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## NewBie (Jan 30, 2006)

xochi said:


> Hey Newb,
> How in hades did you come up with the name "kholrabirules"? Sorry, OT, I know....



I was eating kholrabi fresh out of my garden at the time. Most the store stuff tastes like cardboard in comparison.


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## LowWorm (Jan 30, 2006)

Geologist said:


> Well LowWorm - I value anyone's opinion - especially when it is based upon experience. If someone has no direct experience with the light, then his comments are either conjecture or based on others comments - which starts the cycle again. Newbie has been a CPF member longer than many of us - it doesn't necessarily give him omniscient powers. The truth is based on fact - Newbie stated "there is a problem when running them in the full brightness mode". What does that mean? Hmmm. This new light has 5 current tables (4 normal and 1 experimental), each with 5 brightness levels. Did he specify in detail what the issue was? no - just that "you could blow up your flashlight" and when that occurs, "it will cost you 35 dollars plus labor to get it fixed". Now if he is doing everyone a favor and warning all these newbies about the dangers of exploding flashlights, then you would think that there would be more details to his warning.
> 
> Let me rephrase things a bit and see if I can add more information to help those people who are new to the community:
> 
> ...



Condescending reply aside, I understood fully NewBie's intention in posting. No translation needed, thanks. To harp on him because he chose words that did not gloss over the defects of this light is really saying he doesn't have the semantic freedom that you have demonstrated in the antithesis. 

Regardless, his post doesn't sway my purchasing decision. Engineering or warranty defects notwithstanding, I'd never buy a Chameleon.


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## Sigman (Jan 31, 2006)

Let's say that Surefire, Streamlight, Inova, etc. were to produce a light with problems that weren't resolved...if I "were" interested in it, I'd certainly wait until the problems weren't an issue and the light was solid before I purchased it. I'm certain that those companies would take care of the problem as well with their lifetime warranties.

Now seeing as this light wasn't produced by a "big time" company - I still don't care...with a light that costs as much as it does, I'd expect some type of support.

Vote with your own wallets of course!


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## Geologist (Jan 31, 2006)

Sigman - agreed! But since when are we talking about a problem?

Again from my example of the car-

If you bought a sports car from me, then at the last minute I give you a nitrous kit and say be "be careful - this can make things run awesome - but be careful because if you abuse it you could screw up the car" - is that a problem? No - that is a warning about do not abuse a feature. I do not see where people think that there is a problem?

The light is solid. SInce it was a light desgined for enthusists and has features that allow the light to be abused. You aren't going to accidently abuse it, you must make an effort to reprogram the light to the higher current table.

To let on like the light has problems IS JUST WRONG and is unfair to make those accusations. It is wrong to misreperesent the facts, especially coming from those who would be considered "resepcted" in the community. New users look to the more experienced people for opinion and people should behave accordingly!


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## [email protected] (Jan 31, 2006)

Geo, blowing an emitter because you feed it too much is one thing, blowing the electronics because of it is a fault... :thinking:


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## Geologist (Jan 31, 2006)

And again Lowworm - the light does not have any defects- at least nothing that has become apparent at this early stage. If from reading Newbie's post you assume that the light is defective, then perhaps he did succeed in his original intentions.

Again, I welcome comments of how the light has problems and is defective.

Sigman - you are right vote with you wallet. 

If one has personal issues with buying this light, then please do not buy it. But please don't call something defective just because you have other motives and feelings external to the light itself.

Thanks!


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## Geologist (Jan 31, 2006)

[email protected] said:


> Geo, blowing an emitter because you feed it too much is one thing, blowing the electronics because of it is a fault... :thinking:



Blowing the electronics because you abuse what has already been stated to use in moderation is simply that - abuse. Plus at this moment - everyone is speculating as no one has actually "blown" the electronics. Again a refer to the car example.

If the experimental extra level was never included - then this issue would no be discussed and there would be people complaining that it maxs out at 1000mA to the emitter. YOU DO NOT HAVE TO USE CT5 - IT WAS EXTRA. It is free will to use or ABUSE it.


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## [email protected] (Jan 31, 2006)

Geologist said:


> If one has personal issues with buying this light, then please do not buy it. But please don't call something defective just because you have other motives and feelings external to the light itself.
> 
> Thanks!



That goes both ways 

Thanks as well.


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## Geologist (Jan 31, 2006)

Gotta for now - but if anyone - has identified any defects with this new light system - than please speak up! Oh the more FACTs the better!

-Geo


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## shooter08 (Jan 31, 2006)

I am curious can the experimental level 5 be activated by accident? If the hyper
level is easily accesed one could activate it and not realize. If this is at all
possible it makes me wary of spending the dough on it.

No dog in this fight just curious.

Dave


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## Sigman (Jan 31, 2006)

I need to stick with simple lights so my simple brain can handle it!  

My most complicated lights are my eternaLight elite Max & my Basic HDS. Anymore than that - I'll overload my own circuits! Now who do I talk to about the warranty on me? 

The more complicated something is, the more chances of something going wrong...I let my wife program the VCR and my sons program my home theater equipment. (Oh, ok...I did maintain, test, repair, & program many different types of avionics - computers, displays, navigation-weapons-communications-identification systems on various multi-million dollar aircraft & associtated computerized test equipment for a little over 20 years...so maybe there's a little "technical expertise" left in me?  )

Sigman out!


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## ernsanada (Jan 31, 2006)

The first batch of Chameleons had the max 5th level.

The later batches come only with the max 4 level.


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## Codeman (Jan 31, 2006)

shooter08 said:


> I am curious can the experimental level 5 be activated by accident? If the hyper
> level is easily accesed one could activate it and not realize. If this is at all
> possible it makes me wary of spending the dough on it.
> 
> ...



You have to turn the light on, click 3 times to access the menu, then 2 more clicks to access the table setting menu, then 4 more clicks to reach the highest table. At each step, the light gives visible flashes to indicate where you are. Each table setting, while in the menu, has a corrresponding brightness to the beam so that you can see which level you've selected. Then, you let the light turn off. Even then, you still have to accsss the highest setting of table 5 through either the force mode, or by holding the button down when you turn it on while the light steps up through each of the table's five levels. That sounds complicated, but most users don't have any problems, once they're familiar with the interface. So, the answer to your question is no, it's not really possibled to get on table 5 level 5 accidentally.

In regards to the board failing on extended CT5/G runs. If anyone else can build a regulated light with these levels of current, at such a low price for a custom-made light, that fully and completely protects the board, regardless of how long the user runs it on it's highest setting, be sure to let me know. I'll buy one.

Also, I was the one that posted on FF about a possible board failure due to extended CT5/5 runtimes. In fact, I am still the only one to have posted of a possible board failure due to any reason. Once the builder of the boards provided some steps to take, I was able to verify that the board in my Chameleon did NOT fail. It was my lack of understanding how the Chameleon's regulation works that led me to believe the board may have failed. Within a very short time, the builders explained what was going on, and why, and even offered a refund to me. I call that good customer service.

Lastly, the latest info is that all Chameleon will still ship with CT5 available, along with a clear warning about it's use. The builders are discussing the possibility of using boards without CT5 to replace those that are burnt out by excessive CT5/5 usage. I think that's also fair.


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## kukula (Jan 31, 2006)

I really dont know all the fuss about this level 5. Whats wrong with having the OPTION to run your light at 1200ma? I have to go with Geologist here. The original Chameleon was not designed to run at that level. The original design only allowed it to run at 1000ma max. It was only on the latter stages of the Chameleons development that Mr. Bulk included the 1200ma option. But he clearly stated that this is an experimental level and should only be used on short bursts. The beauty of the Chameleon is that it actually allows you to choose what current you want. And there are 5 levels of brightness at each current level. The highest level was only there to give a WOW factor to the light. Most people know that running the LEDS at that level could lead to shorter life etc. And I am sure all Chameleon owners know this. If you guys fear that you might blow up the light at that level, then DONT run it at that level. You can always use 750 or 500ma if you so wish. Sheeesh


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## Luxman (Jan 31, 2006)

+1 on kukula's post.
I Love this new light!
Excellent quality, beam, brightness, tint and feel..
IMO the 5th 1200 mA current table is one of its special custom features. Something you just can't get in a regular commercial light.
I like having it for brief testing against other lights and if I should need a little extra light to see something "important" for a few seconds..
It may also come in handy for future upgrades.
I consider myself lucky to have this table and if I should send the light back for any work, would specifically request that it not be removed from software.


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## NewBie (Jan 31, 2006)

Hey, it wasn't my intention to start a war over this, thats why I told folks to go check the details themselves, and left the semantics up to the maker. That was until folks ran over here to spin things.

At least a few folks are at least aware of things that they may not be, otherwise, depending on how closely they followed stuff.

Georges80 himself had Geologist quote the datasheet thermal stuff, and emphasize the use of the high mode for short bursts only, and added the replacement price, and the warnings of possibly blowing things up (possibility of releasing the magic and literal smoke).

Codeman, I believe it was in your case, that you'd said the cells internal explosion/thermal protection devices were kicking off (PTC). That is living on the edge!

Though I do have a concern over a flashlight that causes a cells internal protection devices to kick off. These protection devices are designed to prevent a cell from exploding, especially these Lithium cells that can go off like a bomb. Thats why they are there, and why there are usually several mechanisms present to prevent this from happening. Some companies like Pila, will strap additional protection circuits to the cells as another layer of protection.

It would be a very sad day to see someone get hurt from a hobby.

I'm not saying that stuff will happen, just that folks should be aware.


What sort of things can happen when Lithium cells go off?


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## Codeman (Jan 31, 2006)

NewBie said:


> Hey, it wasn't my intention to start a war over this, thats why I told folks to go check the details themselves, and left the semantics up to the maker. That was until folks ran over here to spin things.
> ...


Actually, we're unspinning things by presenting the facts. IFCTIDDI.



NewBie said:


> Codeman, I believe it was in your case, that you'd said the cells internal explosion/thermal protection devices were kicking off (PTC). That is living on the edge!



As to the rest of your post, it's not worth my time. I will, however, clarify that "explosion" is your imbellishment (I never said that).


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## Frenchyled (Jan 31, 2006)

Thank you for the warning Newbie 

I think that all owners of the Chameleon have to know what they bought or what they will buy 

As a collector, you know me, crazy French Flashaholic, I bought this flashlight, because it is another flashlight in my collection. It is different from all other I have and certainly not perfect like some other I don't have 

If Ernsanada is right, I am very happy to got one of the first batch Chameleon, because it is one of the 20 which could burn on CT5 table  Maybe its value will increase just for that 

I am certainly not an electronic specialist of flashlight, because when I learnt electronic, LED didn't existe  So, as a simple user, this one seems not more worse than a majority of some others ...and like for the use of my car..I will certainly not use it at more than 7000 rpm for more than one second


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## Geologist (Jan 31, 2006)

No war started here Newbie - just want to make sure that hard cold facts are present - here are some more-

Look at the details on the post where you state that George had me quote stuff. George never has had me quote stuff. I would imagine that Mr. Bulk or one of the other mods made those edits to the 1st post as new announcements/info.

Exlposion Protection? The batteries are kicking off on the Chameleon because the CR123 batteries can not sustain enough current on the higher levels (think regulated light). As current hits the ~1.5 C, then they shut down. The better the battery can maintain voltage (or if using larger cells), then the longer the battery will run. Both the light and the batteries have thermal protection - we pay for it just it case it works.

If I remember right, that photo was from a user who had mixed primary cells in that light (correct me if this is not the same story). And you are right, whether using primaries or rechargables (protected or unprotected) lithium batteries, a good dose of safety is in order whether you are messing with a big fat hot wire or a cheapo Asian special. I would also advise to use protected cells if at all possible in all your lights, and don't mix cells of different brands, runs, or capacities!

Also in reference to an above question - I would find it very unlikely to be able to accidently activate CT5 - the button pushes as Codeman stated above have to also be timed a bit. This feature alone lets you set the light at the table you need and leave it there. Personally, my Chameleon is set to CT4, and when you turn it on, it automatically comes on level 3. You can decide to increase or decrease the brightness, but this setting works best for me. I also have "auto off" enabled so if I forget to turn the light off, it will start auto-dimming after 15 minutes. If you are worried about accidental button presses, you can also electronically lock the light.

I also am a big fan of the Eternalight series as well (owning 5), and I would say that configuring/using the Chameleon is a bit easier than configuring changing the Elite Max. If you feel comfortable with the Eternalite series, then the Chameleon would be a breeze to operate.


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## jtice (Jan 31, 2006)

Newbie may have a very direct and in your face way of expressing his opinions and concerns...

But why does that make some immediately say that he is out to get someone, or is blowing things out of purportion?

Its a known "FACT" oo: oh no theres that word again!
yes, fact, that some of Mr. Bulks lights are driving the leds are very high rates.
Are they bright? sure, thats kinda the point isnt it?
Are they driven to the point where its not reliable or reasonable?
Well I suppose thats up to the consumer to decide.

Newbie is simply explainning to the consumer the concerns that go along with these sort of drive levels.
If you dont mind short LED lifespans, and the risk of running Li_ion cells too hot,
fine, go for it, its your $ and health, more power to you.
But dont come here bashing someone for posting information on it,
some consumers may not like these side effects.

I am seeing too much of this crap lately.
People are posting replies based on *WHO* made the post,
and *WHO* the post is about.
And not the subject matter to which the post is about in the first place.

~John


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## KevinL (Jan 31, 2006)

No intent to start an argument. Just my 2c as someone who is actually holding a Chameleon and took out for a walk this evening. I did some early investigation into why the Chameleon was cutting out quicker than expected. 

A good compromise would be to ship the Chameleon 'at spec' factory preset to CT4 (1000mA max within safe limits). It's still impressively bright. Instructions are provided with every Chameleon, clear and straightforward instructions. The sequence of clicks needs to be followed exactly and one should never be able to 'stumble' into CT5 by accident. Even if CT5 is selected during the changing of the current levels it will be for a fraction of a second. Only CT5 at MAX is dangerous and that is only for extended runtimes (full power runs while discharging batteries, possibly). The 4th power level on CT5 is equivalent to the max power level on CT4, specifically, 1000mA - which is still within spec. The max power level on CT5 (1200mA) is the dangerous one. This is overdriving the LED as we all know it, and apparently overdriving the switcher chip too. 

Then it could be stated in the instructions that by following this sequence of clicks you can select CT5 as an option, but be advised CT5 at max power could be blah blah blah.. etc. users can then make an informed choice. AND it would protect newer owners less familiar with the intricacies and tradeoffs of flashlight engineering. 

For example, I myself reset mine to CT4 and have not changed it since, because I KNOW if I set it to CT5, my itchy fingers WILL latch the light at full power and then I will only have myself to blame  so I set mine to CT4 to prevent myself from going overboard.


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## Lips (Jan 31, 2006)

Man my Lion Cub is bright. It absolutely blows away every other Lux 3 I own. Did I say bright. I have been using it every single day for months and months and months and months and months. Did I say months! It dims, has tons on levels of brightness and 3 levels of brightness with a touch of a button. Rechargeable, good looking and in a very small package. One tough light.

I did not buy a chameleon on the original list. Hoping to get lucky with a deal on a complete package on the aftermarket BST. 

I have bought many lights in the last 12 months of my time at CPF. X990's, Thors, Harbor Freight HIDS, 700L Fivemegas, FM 3.5 Chromes, Alephs, Q3's, KL1, KL4, 6p Surefire, Jil Flupics, Missed Chrome PD, Orb Raws, MiniHID on Order. 

I have used none of them more or put none of them thru harsher treatment than Mr. Bulks Lion Cub. My lion cub is a damn fine product and I am a proud owner! You get a chance to buy a Mr. Bulk light on the BST, go for it, I plan to !!!

Cheers


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## Empath (Jan 31, 2006)

Geologist said:


> No war started here Newbie



I don't know. Attributing intent and motive to people's comments is a very inexact science. Just because someone states an opinion you don't like, or that you would rather keep hidden does not define motive. That's not even to mention the fact that such personal attacks, and attempts to define motive are personal attacks, are contrary to CPF's policies.

If I was to go through and edit out all your personal attacks, much of the meaningful content would be damaged. If you did so, it would be less damaging to content. It would be very much appreciated, but compliance is doubtful.

You're welcome to continue the discussion, but if it continues on in the same manner, some corrective action of some sort will be applied.


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## Codeman (Jan 31, 2006)

Empath said:


> I don't know. Attributing intent and motive to people's comments is a very inexact science. Just because someone states an opinion you don't like, or that you would rather keep hidden does not define motive. That's not even to mention the fact that such personal attacks, and attempts to define motive are personal attacks, are contrary to CPF's policies.
> 
> If I was to go through and edit out all your personal attacks, much of the meaningful content would be damaged. If you did so, it would be less damaging to content. It would be very much appreciated, but compliance is doubtful.
> 
> You're welcome to continue the discussion, but if it continues on in the same manner, some corrective action of some sort will be applied.



The phrase "compliance is doubtful" seems to be continuing on in the same manner. How can members be expected to remain civil when moderators and administrators do the very thing they are trying to moderate?

That's not meant to be a snide remark, Empath. It's a serious question.


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## Empath (Jan 31, 2006)

Codeman, I've no intentions of arguing moderator decisions in this thread. Please read our rules.



Codeman said:


> How is the phrase "compliance is doubtful" any different?


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## Codeman (Jan 31, 2006)

Empath said:


> Codeman, I've no intentions of arguing moderator decisions in this thread. Please read our rules.



The question was rhetorical, Empath.

I have read the rules, and I wasn't questioning your decision, just how it was presented. You will probably disagree with the distinction, though, so I'll take a self-imposed break from this thread.


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## magic79 (Jan 31, 2006)

This thread reminds me why we have stickers on football helmets warning that football is dangerous.

It seems to me that in a *custom* flashlight, a feature that allows you to select *custom*, but potentially damaging current levels, is exactly what being *custom* is all about. No commercial manufacturer would give you that opportunity.

I checked the dictionary and there is simply no definition of "defect" that would apply. _Caveat emptor_ perhaps, but certainly not defect.

Sadly, from reading here and FF, it looks like they have gone for the lowest-common-denominator and are now going to "protect us from ourselves" by removing CT5. 

Bummer.


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## Geologist (Jan 31, 2006)

I have responded to the comments in the thread because I felt that the information presented by the initial poster was, for whatever reason, lacking so much information that it could become misleading, especially to the casual reader or new member. Whether that was the motive of the poster, I leave to everyone to make their own decisions. I have tried to keep personal comments out of my postings (and I I know I have not been 100% good at this), but it becomes difficult at times. I do not want to see this thread locked because I would like to see the CORRECT information presented to the community.

My comments about the performance of this light have been based upon the best information that I have - both from reading about all the others' experiences and owning one as well. When I have given information - it seems that people think I am trying to mislead them. My only motive in even getting involved is to correct information that is misleading or simply wrong. 

Even though by ALL current information states the light works as advertised, others who have NO EXPERIENCE with the light are using a lot of negative terms and phrases to describe a light . Why are the doing that? What information are they basing that upon? Attributing intent and motive to people's comments is not an exact science but can anyone explain what the general idea behind these comments are? If I made similar comments about a light with no basis or experience, would the community just say "thanks for the info - I'm not gonna buy that piece of junk" or would those people "in the know" jump in to make corrections?

In the end - people will make their own decisions and develop their own opinions. 
btw - My "no war here" comment was in response to Newbie stating that he wasn't trying to start a war. This is a discussion forum - so lets discuss!


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## Kiessling (Jan 31, 2006)

I think discussion of problems of a given light is an important factor of a forum like CPF as an non-commercial unbiased platform to enjoy this hobby. This is exactly what this thread should have been about ... shed light on some issues that need to be known about this specific light to people interested in acquiring one or simply for the joy of discussing our hobby. 
Since the website of the manufacturer of the Chameleon isn't read by the majority of the membership here and seems to invoke questions about a manufacturer's bias this thread is currently one of the main sources of information for CPFers.
This means ... untill some people tried to bring personal agendas and supposed motives into the game. I really would appreciate if we could discuss the facts and technical aspects as well as merits and flaws of the Chameleon instead.

Further more ... I do not think it is mandatory to own a light to discuss it and/or bring up possible problems or second thoughts. This is an argument often used to suppress the free flow of information and devalue other's points of view. 
An intelligent flashaholic can gather enough good info by reading others talk about the light and its attributes, like in this thread or at flashlightforums ... in combination with his skills and knowledge he earned throughout his presence at CPF, he should then be able to form an opinion worthy of discussion and consideration by others. 
I appreciate input by knowledgeable members like NewBie, because his knowlege and skills are far above my own in this area. Same goes for georges80, as he is the developper of the heart of the chameleon, the driver. If he is concerned, so am I, and as a consequence, it should be known in a flashaholic community. This is what it's all about having such a place at all.

For example ... even at the site of the maker of the Chameleon the knowledgeg about the mentioned issues does not seem to be so widespread:
http://flashlight-forums.com/index.php?topic=1772.from0;topicseen#new


A light that can die if a certain setting is chosen, a light that drives the batteries so hard that security measures have to kick in to protect the batteries (and maybe the user?) from harm, a light that has its driver board settings changed during the run, a light that requires me to pay a significant sum if it dies during "normal" use of a given feature (level 5/5 in this case) ... such a light is worthy of a critical discussion IMHO. So that the flashaholic can form a correct opinion of what he might get *before* shelling out the dollars.
Trying to cover up those issues or suppressing or diverting talk about them isn't appreciated.

bernhard


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## Geologist (Jan 31, 2006)

*The Chameleon Flashlight discussion thread*



Kiessling said:


> I really would appreciate if we could discuss the facts and technical aspects as well as merits and flaws of the Chameleon instead.
> 
> Further more ... I do not think it is mandatory to own a light to discuss it and/or bring up possible problems or second thoughts.
> 
> ...



I have quoted part of your post:

I appreciate your agreement that the facts and technical aspects should be the ones being discussed. I also agree ownership is not the ticket to be able to "talk shop", but espousing valid information should be expected at a minimum.

Pertaining to your comments concerning table 5/level 5 - users have been warned of the nature of using this EXTRA current level. There is no "normal" useage as it is overdriving the emitter by ~60%(?). I will not rehash my previous statements. I think this thread IS discussing the issues for the CPF community (although I would think it would be more approprate to change the thread title) - I think it was good to clarify comments made than just to leave the statement about "flashlights blowing up" alone. 

Finally, I think any statements about "problems" are pure speculation until a problem exists. 

[The math will tell ya that the experimental level will shut down a R123. A number of incadesent lamps will also shut down protected 123 cells (~1.2 - 1.5 amps?). ]


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## ddaadd (Jan 31, 2006)

Soo, I'm near the end of the Chameleon run, wondering if I will have Level 5?

If so, I might as well prepay the $35, (possible discount?? ) because if my 

light has an " I Dare Ya To " button, I'm gonna dare it !! ...he he ......

Just my nature.....


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## Kiessling (Jan 31, 2006)

*Re: The Chameleon Flashlight discussion thread*



Geologist said:


> Finally, I think any statements about "problems" are pure speculation until a problem exists.
> 
> [The math will tell ya that the experimental level will shut down a R123. A number of incadesent lamps will also shut down protected 123 cells (~1.2 - 1.5 amps?). ]



Semantics.
A "problem" has always a subjective touch to its definition, and the Chameleon "offers" enough characteristics or "features" that are obviously very well considered problems by some flashaholics. Since the issues brought up reflect the reality of this light and aren't smoke or made up I suggest you try to accept that others will see this as a problem even if you don't. Imposing one's views on other minds via semantics and endless repeating of the same statement won't make it any more true or justified.

The same goes for the comparison with incan bulbs running on R123 ... you can't quite justify questionable (in some members' opinions) features of the Chameleon by invoking a just as questionable alternative. Won't work.

If one knows about the characteristics, merits and flaws of the Chameleon he can make an educated buying or "wanting" decision. The problem is how to find those infos from a trustworthy source. A huge indipendent forum with knowledgeable members is one alternative for such a source of information. This would be CPF. And this is why a discussion should follow some "rules of conduct" in order to be most useful, which is also why violation of those rules is considered bad style and generally annoying. Clouding or fogging the issues comes to mind.

bernhard

P.S.: the drive current for a LuxIII is "at spec" up to 1000mA, but the true problem some guys are worried about isn't the overdrive of the LED which is almost a "fingerprint" of Charlie's lights by now, it is the possible failure of the driver board with the light dying prematurely and leaving the user out in the cold should he not fulfill the warranty terms of the manufacturer and/or not be able to fund the repair. Cell safety is another issue, and when SilverFox is making comments about safety issues I am all ears 
In order to avoid this problem one has to be infomed about it.


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## Icebreak (Jan 31, 2006)

Let me see if this attempt at synthesis is close to being accurate.

A high end, exotic torch is designed by a well known builder.

The design requires a specified circuit that is innovative.

The circuit is designed by a well known EE.

The circuit specification is changed by the torch designer.

The EE changes the design of the circuit to the new spec with caution given.

An anomaly is reported by a user.

This anomaly was reasonably yet incorrectly diagnosed by the user during extensive testing to be a problem with the circuit.

Another caution was voiced by the EE concerning the circuit being used at it’s highest level suggesting the possibility of cooking the circuit.

It was indicated that if the board failed a new board could be installed for the price of the board plus labor.

The anomaly was reported to CPF by an Engineer known to be versed in multiple engineering disciplines, one of which is electrical.

A refund was offered by the torch designer to the reporting user.

Guidance was given and the correct diagnosis for the reported anomaly became known to be that some Li-Ions could not push one of the levels of the circuit.

The reporting user was satisfied with the explanation and chose to keep the torch.

A concern was delivered by more than one member that more extensive testing should have been done to reveal the anomaly so that buyers could know about it before payment was made.

Thus far, it appears that no buyers have dropped out or asked for refunds.

The remaining concerns are for the less knowledgeable potential owners. Those that don’t have the time to read all about it. Those that may buy in a BST or from an auction.

1.) In one particular mode the torch is pushing the batteries at dangerous levels. Dangerous meaning not only the possibility of a catastrophic failure but possible injury to the user.
2.) If the circuit is blown and the emitter is blown there will be substantial cost involved in getting the torch fixed. Substantial meaning around one third the cost of the original torch. IOWs, the price of the board, the emitter, labor and shipping.
3.) Clear disclosure about the above two concerns.

My comments:

Some of us have seen and read about remarkable things being done with Li-Ions by HotWire guys and RC guys. Experience with taking Li-Ions to edge can only be accomplished by experience. While I’m fascinated by some of that, it is not for me…yet.

The torch in question has a hotrod/turbo mode. That’s interesting and fun for many. I wouldn’t be greatly disappointed if I blew a sweet LED residing in a hotrod but I would be very displeased if I blew that sweet ckt because I wasn’t informed.

Stewardship:

The reporting user showed good stewardship by reporting the problem. The reporting CPF member showed good stewardship by reporting the problem. Stewardship is important to this hobby that not only involves the flashlights themselves being useful tools, representations of theory, toys, artwork or objects of affection but also involves advancing what many consider to be a science. Yes, we flashaholics should all do our best to look out for each other.


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## IsaacHayes (Feb 1, 2006)

Guys, all I read this as is this: "Just so you know". Some may be fine with the extra level and can be responsible to use it that way. Others may not want the extra level so they don't have to worry that if they turn it on at a certain setting and leave it alone, or someone else gets a hold of it, that it may be damaged after prolonged use. It's up to the buyers to decide what they want. If someone doesn't want that "feature" they (hopefully) would have an option receive one with out it or at the very worse wait for a latter run.

Like I said, it's a good "FYI" heads up, I'm sure the buyers can decide what they want from there.

Let's try to conserve CPF "bandwidth" and keep things short, simple, and to the point! I find it much hard here lately to get info out of a thread due to all of the extra "talk" that we could do without. So much that I often scroll past bits of info I was looking for to just answer a question in my mind...

Just the facts please! and by that I mean "This is the situtation" "You can do this, or this" and that's it! Let each person decide on their own what to do and if they like it or not!

I made this post longer than I wanted to. But hopefully it was clear and to the point and shorter than most posts in this thread!  :wave:


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## Geologist (Feb 1, 2006)

Newbie -

Thats great information about how protected batteries work - it really should be stickied somewhere as we normally do not see that information condensed into one post. Thanks.

As it pertains to the Chameleon on the experimental/use caution/no for normal use CT5, - at least in my experience, the Protected R123 is shutting down as the current rises over the threshold of the protection circuit (I believe this number is 1.5 C for the AW cells which is only about 1.2-1.4 amps?). Since the Chameleon's minimum operating voltage is higher than the minimum voltage on the cells, and that the shutdown occurs within a few seconds, I do not the protection circuit is kicking in due to voltage sag or excessive heat. If you really run the "hot rod" level, then you will need a larger battery that can handle the power drain without excessive voltage sag - but again it has been highly advised that since the extra/experimental CT 5 is not for normal or extended useage, caution would be advised.

What will be interesting is when lower Vf emitters become available, batteries will need to produce less current to drive the stars - and the required battery current will drop. Like I said previously, if anyone has a UWOG or UXOG emitter extra - I would love to have it.

Again - I see no problems with this light and less the user chooses to abuse it. It is a great light - that is Geologist's opinion. Other owners' opinions could vary.



Also another side note pertaining to an above comment. Flashlight-Forums.com is not a commercial website - at least no more than CPF. Users at both sites engage in discussions of various topics, and the focus is not solely on Mr. Bulk lights. If the advise of the previous poster was taken, then it would be in many users best interest to check other sites besides CPF when evaluating information about lights that are solely available via CPF. Not trying to get people upset - but think about it.


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## [email protected] (Feb 1, 2006)

Geologist said:


> Also another side note pertaining to an above comment. Flashlight-Forums.com is not a commercial website - at least no more than CPF. Users at both sites engage in discussions of various topics, and the focus is not solely on Mr. Bulk lights. If the advise of the previous poster was taken, then it would be in many users best interest to check other sites besides CPF when evaluating information about lights that are solely available via CPF. Not trying to get people upset - but think about it.



Sorry Geologist, but you are so wrong here, it's not even funny... :candle:  

Let's not go there and keep this thread on topic OK?


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## Lmtfi (Feb 1, 2006)

I ran mine outside the recommended specs and this happened:














(I thought the thread could use some humor)


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## Kiessling (Feb 1, 2006)

I split-off the discussion about Li-Ion protection technologies and dangers into this thread:
http://candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=106242
... and stickied it.

Please continue this worthy topic over there. thank you.

bernhard


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## NewBie (Feb 1, 2006)

Thanks Kiessling!


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## NewBie (Feb 4, 2006)

For those interested in safety, and some of the inherent dangers, as well as proper treatment and various senarios...

I have continued to expound on the dangers and the necessary protection scenarios of Li-Ion cells, as well as what occurs when you try to push the Li-Ion cell beyond it's ratings. The additional information is found here:

http://candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?p=1258756#post1258756


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## VidPro (Feb 4, 2006)

Deleted


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## Codeman (Feb 4, 2006)

VidPro said:


> paranoid freakazoids
> ..
> what a bunch of paranoids, dont suppose you will be heading off to a near vaccume of space with the russians this week
> 
> ..


At least we don't go around calling each other adolescent names, Vidpro. Even those that disagree can be respectful of the other person.


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## cyberhobo (Feb 4, 2006)

Deleted


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## [email protected] (Feb 4, 2006)

Now can we all get back on track please? :scowl: 
:thanks:


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## Codeman (Feb 4, 2006)

Thanks, [email protected]!

I've sent about half of my 123's to someone for some testing. Hopefully, we'll have some useful info on what each brand of cell can and cannot handle. With that info, I hope we'll be closer to knowing the safe limits of using the Chameleon's CT5/5 level with today's 123 LiIon cells.


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## Anglepoise (Feb 4, 2006)

I think it was entirely appropriate for NewBie to alert members here that there
might be some potential problems in this light. It's when used or modded lights start showing up in Buy,Sell and Trade that problems can occur.

Also it is my understanding that users of R-CR123 batteries need to stay alert especially if using these batteries in high current draw situations.

There have been some great posts on this site about the benefits and dangers of these batteries.

I always thought that this sort of info, was what this forum was all about.


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## LeDfLaShEr (Feb 4, 2006)

Just my 2 cents...
I'm just simply a flashlight user, and Chameleon owner.

I personally don't see any defect to the light as is being presented. When I bought the light, the light was spec'd with a max current table around 1 amp. I purchased the light based on those specs. Long after I ordered the light it was reported that there would be an additional current table added to allow more current.

Now that's what I call looking out for the customer- I actually got more than what I ordered and didn't pay a cent more. Getting an additional feature on any product after you've already purchased it is a plus. 

Do I use this higher current table? Not really. The runtimes are too short with the protected cells that I use. Also, I don't find the difference in light output in that mode worth the decrease in runtime. But that's my option- others may think it's the greatest thing since sliced bread.

And I don't feel the seller cheated me, there is a clear boldfaced warning about the higher current table in the instructions sent with the light that begins with "*WARNING*". Maybe in the future the 1.2mA table will offer me some expandability with new LED's, and perhaps not. Either way, I didn't pay a dime for the option and I'm under no obligation to use it.

As far as danger using this light? I'm sure most would agree that I face a much greater danger running my MAG2C ROP mod on unprotected recycled sony laptop 18650 LiIons. The people of this forum aren't typical end users- we expect high performance and have the brains to assume a certain amount of risk for our behavior. Otherwise we'd all be sitting around here discussing what color our newest stock Mag2d was.


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## Kiessling (Feb 4, 2006)

> As far as danger using this light? I'm sure most would agree that I face a much greater danger running my MAG2C ROP mod on unprotected recycled sony laptop 18650 LiIons. The people of this forum aren't typical end users- we expect high performance and have the brains to assume a certain amount of risk for our behavior. Otherwise we'd all be sitting around here discussing what color our newest stock Mag2d was.



I tend to think it isn't a positive point for the security (or lack thereof) of the Chameleon if you mange to use something different that has even more issues in those aspects. It just isn't a valid argument at all. Fine for you if you take the risk, but only because you are doing so, others might have different opinions about dangers.

Further more, just because we aren't the typical end users does not make us risk-junkies either, it is incorrect to assume a higher level of interest comes with a higher level of acceptable risk. And no, we don't have to choose between a Chameleon and a Mag as there are other options. You might not have encountered them, but upon a thorough search they will show up.

The main point is ... knowledge and information as well as truth. CPF members need and want to know some specs, details and problems associated with lights. We need to know in order to make an educated purchase decision. The pursuit of knowledge is one of the prime characteristics of CPF.
It is really beyond me how anyone could be opposing such distribution of information.

If someone then decides that he does want a Chameleon ... good. Nothing wrong with pushing the enveloppe and taking some risks or testing something out. But he should decide this knowing all the facts.

bernhard


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## Dogliness (Feb 5, 2006)

When a product is released into the marketplace that potentially can cause ill effects when misused, a conspicuous warning in appropriate circumstances will justify release of the product, such as warnings given with certain pharmacueticals. If the only potential ill effect of the high setting on the Chameleon is to fry the circut board, I think a warning is sufficient. In the case of flashlights, I think an unsafe product should not be released, even with a warning. A desire to push the envelope of technology is a fine motive but is not a justification for an unsafe flashlight. By the way, I am a fan of MB flashlights.

Newbie has done us a service by his posts in this thread and in the spinoff thread on Li-Ion battery protection.


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## Lunarmodule (Feb 8, 2006)

Trouble in Paradise: the real life saga of Chameleon woes

and Death of a Chameleon (a true story)

a novel, by Lunarmodule dedicated to Freddy Beekin (my muse)










I just received my new Chameleon, and I was very pleased with the light overall, delighted especially by the superb finish and exceptional tint and beam. However, I do have some seriouis gripes about it, mostly centering around the new user interface.

Being a long time LionHeart and Cub user, I almost always used the UI mode where a press ramped up or down through the 64 different light levels, offering a very wide range of light and intuitive setting. I also liked the press for momentary operation feature.

While I appreciate the fact that Chammie is fully regulated and strives to keep the UI straightforward and simple, it has some very serious drawbacks that put a major crimp in my style in real world use. 

First of all, only five levels is just fine for me, but I found myself wanting a lower low level quite often, for when I'm in a totally dark environment and dont want to lose my adaptation. 

I understand current table 5 (1200ma) is really intended for K2 use, and with the rollout of the U-bins in the next few weeks, I'm eager to put it to use with one of those little wonders. Yeah, I tried it out for a few seconds just to see it, but the converter started buzzing loudly, as if the components were literally screaming for their lives pushing that much power through them.

Being a brightness fanatic (how RARE??) I figured I would use CT4 most of the time (1000mA max). I generally use my LH/LC on either end of their setting ranges, bright as all get out or just eeking out enough light to get the task at hand done. With the Chammie, I cant get dim enough for my liking, but I cant get bright enough either. Well, I can, but for a scant few seconds before unexpectedly blinking off leaving me suprised and in the dark. Not good.

Reason is, I suppose due to the regulation, the Chammie is somewhat akin to the Marquis de Sade in its treatment of my unprotected R123 800mAh cells. It sucks the cells dry like I've never seen. The situation is aggravated by the setup of the UI. Once you press to set your desired light level, you only have 2 choices. Click to go off, or press to latch on to max level. On CT4, and even on CT3 (750mA) switching over to max runs the light from 1 to 30 seconds or anywhere in between before switching off without any warning due to the low voltage cutout. 

This is really aggravating when you NEED max output and it just goes (DARK). On CT4, with <75% charge on the cell, it would shut off within 10 seconds. <30% charge and just a few seconds, or simply a momentary *BLINK*. This forces you to turn the light back on and press to regain your desired level. So in actual use, from level 3 for example, you can either click to go off and press to switch back on and go to a new level, or press and have the light go off by itself after a short delay of very bright light, like a tease. 

To really add fuel to the fire, try setting the force level to max. With CT4, on partially discharged cells, many times it just blinks for a moment when you hit the switch, it wont stay on long enough to click three times to enter program mode to stop the force level or change current tables. Grrrrrrr. When on force to max with CT4 or CT5 and low cell charge, you are effectively locked out of the light. 

OK, I chalked this up to to ruling out CT4 as a viable useful option. R123s just cant deliver the current the fully regulated high output settings demand. Not to mention I'm using UNprotected cells. Level 4 on CT4 was fine, could run there for a long time, but any press to latch to max level (up from 4 to 5) would guarantee tripping the low voltage shutoff. So 4 out of the 5 levels of CT4 were just dandy, but I had to scrap the whole table because the UI only allows alternating from currently running level to max and back. You just cant GO to max on CT4 with less than fresh cells without it blinking off.

The $64,000 question: WHY OH WHY cant the microcontroller STEP DOWN a level or 2 when it encounters this low voltage scenario on max instead of just switching completely off? Or blink rapidly to let you know the cell cant take it? Its already programmed for level step down via the timer circuit for the Autosleep feature, thats been around since they had holes in Swiss cheese. HDS EDC lights have this down as a science, besides offering so many light levels, they intelligently track cell capacity and step light levels down (and back up whenever possible) when the voltage drops too low. They NEVER just leave you startled in the dark. Neither did my LionHearts or Cub. 

To satisfy my curiosity I swapped battery tubes and put a 168 LC tube in place. Problem disappeared. I could run straight up max on CT4 for a long time or endlessly bounce back and forth without it once shutting down. No question it is a matter of the converter asking too much of a poor R123. The stout 168 handled it all. With a devilish grin I even tried CT5. And the ultimate. Force max level for start on CT5. Yessir, 168 cell delivered. Back to CT4. After around 40 minutes of playtime the 168 was getting tired. 

Back to the 123 tube with a fresh R123. So now I know I can only use CT3 with R123 cells without hassle. Not quite. All levels work on CT3 (750ma) until after 20-30 minutes on levels 3, 4, and 5. By then the cells down to 30% or so and can run a great long time on level 1 or 2, but now max once again becomes a guranteed *blink* off after a few seconds, so I'm back to the frustrating choice of having to do a tap dance on the little button to get to another level or pressing to latch on max to get a very bright slap in the face. Acutally, the bright is BEAUTIFUL, absolutely superb tint on these emitters, (TX0H IIRC?), fantastic beam but inevitably the slap in the face comes from the subsequent nonemission of photons from the light engine. 

Even more restrictions, with R123 I'm really only left with current table 2 for hassle free operation. I can use three (750) on fresh cells for a short while (20 minutes or so for high levels) or stay on three if I only use the lower levels mostly. But the only current table, besides the black sheep runtime bonanza table 1 (350), I can really use all the levels all out for a reasonable span of time is CT2. What adds insult to injury is CT 1, while providing very sane and conservative drive, dosent give me low low levels at all. Level 1 on CT 1 is too bright for some tasks.

Maybe this is all making me sound like someone who could never be happy with anything and finds nothing but flaws and complains about everything, but thats not really the case. Neither am I a biased against Bulkware. On the contrary, it was a LionHeart that created my fanatical love of tiny and bright LED customs, my first "real" light, and also my favorite. 

Also, I think the Chammie is a vast improvement over the LionCub. The head and reflector on the Chammie are the best I've ever seen from Charlie, especially that reflector, man, thats a million dollar item, awesome in its combo textured/smooth surface and deep pitch. It just annihilates the stock LC in beam quality IMHO. I'm a big fan of large reflectors and my instant response to the Cub was a trip to Germany to ARSMachina for a bezel opening machining job and McR 20 reflector. The UWOJ didnt hamper performance too much either. After the mods, it REMAINS a top performer, a prize fighter amongst my lights. But in stock form, honestly, the reflector and overly resrtictive bezel resulted in a congested and compromised beam compared to the Lionheart. The Chammie comes along with the best of both worlds, actually a whole NEW world with its top shelf optics. The LED as well has the most stunningly beautiful tint I have yet seen, makes my beloved Lionheart look startlingly purple side by side.

But the Achilles heel is the UI. I have tremendous respect for George, his talent, and accomplishments. Yet I must voice harsh criticism of the UI in the Chammie as it relates to the problems I encountered described above. I would like to see immediate updated firmware to include level dropping or flashing instead of this straight to off nonsense in case of lack of current capacity of the cell. A high end high performance flashlight absolutely should never leave you suprised in sudden darkness unless the cell is down to dead flat zero volts. It is a HUGE faux pas to have that no warning blink th-th-th-th-th-th-thats all, folks unwelcome immediate lack of light, especially right after blazing brightness. Its WRONG. I would like a lower level possible. I would like to be able to press and hold to ramp up AND down through the levels during operation instead of just latching to max. I would like to see press/hold momentary come back again, or at least be a UI settable option to add. Id like to see something like a double click serve as a dedicated latch to max command. 

Since I'm venting my spleen so much here, I might as well say that the beadblasted finish is just about the most phenominal thing I have ever seen on a flashlight. The invisible body seams are a work of art. The tactile feel of the beadblast is lusciously nice, feels great to hold..... BUT ((there just had to be one of those buts coming right after)) it scratches WAY too easily. I gnarled mine up with just my fingernails. *SIGH*

Last Chapter: Death of a Chameleon

It lived happily for 6 days. On the seventh, it rested. Beacuse it cant do much more than that for now. After reading my diatribe and saga above, I must convey the tragedy that occurred earlier today that took the life of my young Chammie, struck down in its prime.....

Throroughly disgruntled with the lack of runtime on R123, and waiting for an Otok 168 tube on order, I was using a 168 tube from my Lioncub. Turns out the fitment aint so great, as been discussed on other threads, and in my case I had to use a small round magnet with my Pila cell to make contact. 

Today, while working inside a computer case, I quickly changed batteries in the middle of my job, and the magnet wasnt perfectly centered when I screwed the LC tube back on on top of the Pila. The Chammie came to life, bright as all get out, but the button did not respond to any number of presses or clicks. After 30 seconds, the super bright light gave way to a very fast intense strobe that ever so gradually decreased in frequency. It would not switch off. Unscrewing the tube I saw the magnet had shifted and made contact with some of the components on the underside of the converter board. Permanent damage. My Chammie is now a dedicated strobe light. Thats all it does. Strobe. No on, no off, no menu, no nothing, just strobe. I absolutely love strobes, almost bought a damn Gladius just for the strobe feature, but now thats all my Chammie can do. My mistake, shoulda centered the magnet, shoulda had the proper fitting tube, my fault, I killed it, didnt mean to. Very sad.






I conclude this with a desperate plea to Charlie to bring my Chammie back to life, I put it back in its original shipping box and am sending it on its way back to you today. I should have emailed and given you a heads up first but then I started writing this post and it all just came together here and now, doing my usual middle of the night email comms to East Coast Mainland. Perhaps in light of what I wrote above I could beg and plead and ask really nicely to have some firmware changes made to my light so it just dosent blink off anymore, and leave my CT5 intact for my U-bin K2s in the pipeline. Despite the latch to max / superbright to off unexpect-o deal I love(d) my Chammie oh so much, I'm rather broken hearted that its wounded so badly.

Please help me, Charlie... you are my only hope


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## Codeman (Feb 8, 2006)

Sorry to hear of your troubles, but you're more likely to hear from Charlie via email or FF. He's at SHOT right now, so it's more likely you can contact him through those.

Whoops - never mind about my suggestion. I see that you've made the same post on FF.


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## PoliceScannerMan (Feb 8, 2006)

LM, I am expieriencing the same troubles with my R123's. I can live with it, I really like the light overall. When ever I know I need light for sure, with absolutley no failures, I'll carry something else.


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## Lunarmodule (Feb 8, 2006)

PoliceScannerMan said:


> LM, I am expieriencing the same troubles with my R123's. I can live with it, I really like the light overall. When ever I know I need light for sure, with absolutley no failures, I'll carry something else.



Thats a purely devastating statement, but its EXACTLY how I felt in a nutshell at the end of my trail. That last sentence, read V E R Y S L O W L Y ......

I think the world of Charlie and how he reaches out to his customers and supporters. I cant forget how he responded personally and promptly when I had a problem in the past. I dont fault him personally for it and I'm not intending to badmouth something I expected so much from. The net result of my experience was unfortunately this proved to be a very unreliable light, in that even when it wasnt hitting the shutoff mode it used up the charge so rapidly that after 10 or 15 minutes of use I couldnt really depend on full power on demand predictably. 

Even though I could have run for hours left on level 1, when I was using the light my "normal" way, the way I would have used my LC or LH, the Chammie blinked off ten or twenty times. I kept resetting it over and over and saying.. "Jeez, its an intelligent microcontroller... dont access that level if it couldnt the LAST time with this battery, try one down instead automatically, thats the point of having brains in these things if there's no mechanical switch..."

On one occasion in a park at night I really NEEDED the damn thing to work, my glasses fell off and got lost in the grass. Murphy's Law. I knew I had very little battery left but needed every lumen I could squeeze. Since it was the new arrival it was all I brought with me. It was comical, my friend getting a good laugh out of "Mr. High-End Flashlight" and it keeps flickering out repeatedly like Bradd Pitt's did in the movie Seven. Found the glasses but invented some interesting curse words. Of course it ran for a half hour perfectly on level 1 thereafter.

All these things disappear with a Pila 168A, abundant capacity for runtime on all levels, which masks the gripes about only being able to alternate between set level and max. Runs all 5 levels on CT4 no less. Bright as all get out. For a spell it was just like my LH with 168 but much nicer beam and no-worries-plenny-runtime. Thought I was out of the woods, that I could live with not relying on a 123 cell for serious use. Really wish I had the dedicated Otok battery tube in time, because the fit mismatch with my LC tube and my mistake finally KOed the light. 

My hope is that a firmware revision will be offered to provide more flexibility in selecting levels and perhaps a routine to step down levels or even predict limits on high level use, just anything to avoid the blinking off right after a brief deluge of brilliant light.


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## Icebreak (Feb 8, 2006)

Could you tell us what brand of batteries you were using?

I read both your posts then speed scanned them and didn't see that info. I'm asking about the brand because Codeman and others reported that some worked better than others did. Knowing which ones didn't work may be helpful information for owners.

_"BUT ((there just had to be one of those buts coming right after)) it scratches WAY too easily. I gnarled mine up with just my fingernails. *SIGH*"_

I don't understand why an unprotected, bead blasted finish was used. That's not to say it isn't a good idea. Several people bought this light knowing that so, it's very possible I'm missing something here.

Bare bead blasted Al is beautiful but the acid in fingerprint oil will oxidize it and darken it. Also, it will be easily abraded. Physical polishing will change the texture of the surface. Chemical polishing won't remove scratches and small gashes.

Maybe the idea was that oxidization might be a welcome patina and that a bead blasted surface would disguise marring.

Back to topic.

I use rare earth magnets in a couple of my NiMh powered Hotwires but an acrylic tube keeps them from shorting in case of unexpected hard impact. Bad idea, IMHO, to use magnets in a Li-Ion powered light without stringent architecture in place to prevent shorting...maybe it's not such a good idea with Li-Ions at all.

Good luck with your Chameleon. Hopefully, Mr. Bulk will figure a fix that is acceptable to you.


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## Bullzeyebill (Feb 9, 2006)

I also am looking forward to Paul's 168A size tube, though my Powerizer cells do very well, and I visit CT 5/5 often, if only for a short while. Most of my EDC use is at lower levels so I seldom get cut off, and when it does occur, I quickly restart, and always carry a backup light. When the larger tubes arrives I may stop using the short tubes. I just love to play with the darn thing, and may wear out the switch down the road.

Bill


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## nemul (Feb 9, 2006)

Running a H-bin Vf luxeon @ 1200mA (CT5/5) with a RCR123 will not blow up the light..
you just wont have a lot of runtime, only due to the battery's mAh.
If you put a K-bin Vf @ 1200mA and a POS battery and it "blows up" then that is your fault... 

"peace out, bro!"


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## Grumpy (Feb 9, 2006)

I have ran my chameleon at 1000ma with no issues with AWs MP brand unprotected cells.


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## Lunarmodule (Feb 9, 2006)

Thanks Icebreak and Yaesmofo,

For the support and interesting info on the nature of beadblast, I learned from that.

The cells used were 800mAh blue jacketed unprotected cells purchased from a well known contributing dealer, with less than 20 cycles on them. 

I was distracted by a low key tar and feather campaign, limited in scope thankfully. To those that see this as anything but a technical issue, you miss the point. To any that have any constructive input I am grateful. For those this presents an opportunity to resort to name calling and unproductive personal politics, my sympathy and "peace out, bro" reply in kind


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## Osprey_Guy (Feb 9, 2006)

> I have ran my chameleon at 1000ma with no issues with AWs MP brand unprotected cells.


Same goes for me...

I've been using my Chammie frequently since receiving it on Monday. And I too am using AW's unprotected cells. I might add that they've been well broken-in as I've been rotating them between my KL4/FB1 and my FB2/P91 (2xR123) for months...I'm guessing that I've got at least a dozen cycles for each of my 4 unprotected R123's. 

For the most part, like Grumpy, I've been keeping my Chammie set at 1000 ma, and I'd say that for over 75% of the time it's been used at either 4/4 or 5/4 with no issues whatsoever...(well, in fairness, a few times it did cut off a little early when set at 5/4...but in each case the battery was no longer fresh). So far I have no complaints at all...even the beadblast is a nice change of pace from the HAIII finish of most of my other lights. And I bought the full spectrum of colors of the alternative buttons, and I love the way the bead blast aluminum looks with a red or blue button (I've yet to try coral, or yellow, or grey). 

The Chameleon is a breeze to use...and until I experience otherwise, I feel perfectly comfortable depending on it as my EDC. Of course, since I am a certified flashaholic, I always carry at least one backup light...usually two. I've been carrying the Chammie in a pouch on my belt, my Raw is always in my shirt pocket...and I'll usually have either one other light in a 2nd pouch on my belt (my PD or my KL4/FB1)...or I'll toss a Fenix in a pant pocket (L1P or my new LOP).

BTW-Since I'm also a "knife nut" (and knifemaker) I also always carry at least 2 or 3 of my knives with me..One in a pouch on what is beginning to look like my Batman ustility belt and the others go in my shoulder bag (did I mention that I've been wearing a "man bag" for nearly 20 years...One or two of the knives go in there...and it's yet another place to carry an extra light or two if the mood strikes me...It can even easily handle my VIP with the huge BBH head). 

And I wear all this even if I'm heading out to a client meeting (quite often with Sr VP's of marketing on up, of sizeable corporations). No matter where I'm going or who I'm seeing, even if I'm wearing a suit, I don't leave the house unless I'm fully loaded!  


Dennis Greenbaum


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## NewBie (Feb 11, 2006)

Lunarmodule said:


> Trouble in Paradise: the real life saga of Chameleon woes
> 
> and Death of a Chameleon (a true story)
> 
> ...




I'm sorry to hear about the demise. I wonder if you could talk them into coating the bottom side of the board with something, so things don't short out so easily.


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## kukula (Feb 11, 2006)

I too have been using AWs unprotected MP branded RCR123s without any problem using CT4 on the bead blasted Chameleon and CT3 on the Titanium one. Seems to me that AWs batteries are the best for the Chameleons


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## cheapo (Feb 11, 2006)

NewBie said:


> Hey, it wasn't my intention to start a war over this, thats why I told folks to go check the details themselves, and left the semantics up to the maker. That was until folks ran over here to spin things.
> 
> At least a few folks are at least aware of things that they may not be, otherwise, depending on how closely they followed stuff.
> 
> ...




the pressure can get rediculously high, that light that blew up is built like a tank, imagine if that happened with a polymer light like the G2...

-David


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## yaesumofo (Feb 12, 2006)

The Chameleon flashlight is very much a souped up LionCub. It is a great light.

The driver allows for adjustments which when made can damage the flashlight. Care must be exercised, I run my chameleon on table 3 because I do not need Ultra bright available all the time. So To be safe I keep it on table 3 and I have found the chameleon to be as bright and possibly brighter than most of the current crop of single cell flashlights. 

The chameleon is a very high performance piece of gear. If is like a high end racing car. It must be adjusted carefully or something breaks. When stuff breaks on high performance equipment you stand the risk of having to be responsible for repair and replacement. If I blew up my chameleon I would be happy to pay to have it fixed. It's mine. I was warned. I broke it I better be prepared to fix it..

Stop crying start buying.
Yaesumofo


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## nemul (Feb 12, 2006)

Lunarmodule said:


> Unscrewing the tube I saw the magnet had shifted and made contact with some of the components on the underside of the converter board. Permanent damage. My Chammie is now a dedicated strobe light. Thats all it does. Strobe. No on, no off, no menu, no nothing, just strobe. I absolutely love strobes, almost bought a damn Gladius just for the strobe feature, but now thats all my Chammie can do. *My mistake, shoulda centered the magnet, shoulda had the proper fitting tube, my fault, I killed it, didnt mean to.* Very sad.


..........

newbie, it's not Mr. Bulks responsibility to make the Chammie compatable with third party accessories.


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## thesurefire (Feb 12, 2006)

My thoughts:
1. Its legitimate and very kind of newbie to start this topic.
2. If you light blows up (or fails to work) because you modify it in anyway (besides maybe using different batteries) its your fault.
3. If you use a light in its orginally desinged state, under no circomstances should it blow up, or fail to work. There should be no features that could 'ruin' your light The one exception would be if the light was received free. 

Baised? I doubt it, I really like Mr. B and all his stuff, but if the light doesnt work, it should be fixed, for free.


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## [email protected] (Feb 12, 2006)

nemul said:


> ..........
> 
> newbie, it's not Mr. Bulks responsibility to make the Chammie compatable with third party accessories.



It seems to me that it is however his responsibility to make it as safe as possible, knowing very well what people are using to power them. :thinking:

This thread isn't about that though, so let's move on shall we?


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## NewBie (Feb 13, 2006)

NewBie said:


> I'm sorry to hear about the demise. I wonder if you could talk them into coating the bottom side of the board with something, so things don't short out so easily.






nemul said:


> ..........
> 
> newbie, it's not Mr. Bulks responsibility to make the Chammie compatable with third party accessories.




I never said it was. I just thought it would be a great idea.


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## Alan (Apr 24, 2006)

I'm a bit surprise that so many users are using unprotected li-ion cells. Anyone knows if Chammie has protected circuit for li-ion cells like HDS or PD?

Alan


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## Lips (Apr 24, 2006)

Yep


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## Alan (Apr 24, 2006)

Thanks Lips.

I couldn't be able to find any of its detailed spec there except nice pictures (as usual). I'd appreciate if you could point me to the link for its spec and li-ion overdischarge protection.

TIA.

Alan


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## Geologist (May 1, 2006)

As I recall, the Chammie circuit shuts off under 2.7V which is above the voltage for Li-ion over discharge. As far as general specifications, the circuit delivers regulated current to the emitter using different user selectable current tables, each with 5 brighness settings. There are a number of detailed threads about the light (and upcoming versions) available at flashlight-forums.com.

Good luck and feel free to pm if you have any questions.

Geo


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