# Alkaline Battery Shoot Out



## SilverFox

Alkaline Battery Shoot Out

Have you ever wondered… 
Which brand of battery is better? Are they all the same? Is the “Industrial” version better than the regular version, or how about the “Plus” version? Does “Heavy Duty” mean it works better? Are the private labeled batteries rejects from the name brand battery manufacturers? 

I found myself wondering the same things, and decided to do a series of tests.

I picked a variety of batteries. While my list is far from exhaustive, I think this is a good representation. The graphs are pretty full, but if I have made any glaring omissions, additional data may be added in table form.

Battery Capacities:
Alkaline battery capacities are listed at a reduced load that is typically well below the demands of a lot of our lights. The capacity is reduced at higher load levels. Energizer lists the following capacities for comparison:
Energizer Max
AAA 1.250 Amp Hours
AA 2.850 Amp Hours
C 8.350 Amp Hours
D 18.000 Amp Hours

Graph Nomenclature:
Ah = Amp Hours
Wh = Watt Hours
M = Minutes

The battery line up:
Duracell Copper Top – Name brand
Energizer Max – Name brand
Energizer Industrial – The Industrial version
RayOVac Max Plus – Name brand
Radio Shack – Name Brand
Radio Shack Plus – Better than the regular Radio Shack batteries?
Rite Aid – Drug store chain brand
EverActive – Wal Mart brand
RayOVac Heavy Duty – Not Alkaline but Zinc Chloride, for very light loads
Panasonic Power Edge – Photo battery - Interesting results
Kodak – Thanks Sigman, these are marked USA but are made for Kodak
Red Cell – Thanks Sigman
Also added below:
Duracell Ultra
Kirkland
Dorcy Mastercell
e2 Energizer
IKEA - Thanks Andreas
CSV - Thanks John

The graphs:

AAA












AA






Here is a table of the data, sorted by WattHours.










Here is a table of the data, sorted by WattHours.







D
















Test conditions:
All tests were conducted at room temperature of about 68 degrees Fahrenheit utilizing a West Mountain Radio CBA.
All batteries were bought fresh off the shelves. The Panasonic Power Edge AA’s had a date of 2007, the rest were 2010 or 2011.
Rick (Sigman) gave me some Kodak and Red Cell batteries to test and they had dates of 2005 and 2006. They were sealed in the package and he assured me that they were fresh.
AAA and AA batteries were tested at 0.5 and 1.0 Amp Rates.
D batteries were tested at 0.5, 1.0, and 3.0 Amp Rates. (I only had two Red Cell D’s, so I skipped the 3.0 Amp Rate on those.)
I ran out of testing time (and budget) so no C batteries were tested. Perhaps at a later time I can have a look at those.

What does all this mean?
Let’s look at an example: Jump to the AA chart at the 0.5 Amp Rate. The Energizer Max AA battery, at this load, has a capacity of 1.31 Amp Hours (1.50 Watt Hours) and will run continuously for 157 Minutes (down to 0.8 Volts). This load is typical of the Peak AA High Power with 5 LED’s. If you want more run time, go with the Rite Aid batteries. They ran for 218.5 Minutes which is about a 39% increase in run time. I should also note that the Rite Aid batteries were cheaper than the Energizer batteries. 

Interesting concept, longer run time, cheaper price…

I added a comparison of Energizer Lithium AAA and AA VS the Energizer Max Alkaline. What a difference Lithium makes…

3/13/05 We have a new player in the Lithium AA cells. I have added the results from the Battery Station cells. They are rated 2900 mAh and while a bit below the Energizers, are doing very well and cost a lot less as well. Look out Energizer, Battery Station is knocking at your door...

AAA Lithium VS Alkaline at 0.5 Amp Rate






AA Lithium VS Alkaline at 0.5 Amp Rate






AA Lithium VS Alkaline at 1.0 Amp Rate






12/2/04
To round out the lithium comparison, Peter (PeLu) sent me some Lithium Sulpher Dioxide (LiSO2) cells to check out. Thanks Peter. Henry (HDS Systems) is also sending me some cells for verification. Thanks Henry.

I did a series of tests and have compared them to the RayOVac Max Plus D cells. The LiSO2 cells are a different voltage, but the interesting observation is that they had close to 7 Ah of capacity regardless of current draw. How nice it is that the voltage remains constant throughout the test.

Here are the graphs.
















Conclusions:
Yes there is a difference, sometimes a substantial difference. While it is important to pay attention to the construction quality of our lights, I believe that it is also important to pay attention to the power source as well.

Tom

I found some Duracell Ultra AA's and it appears we have a new winner. They have more capacity than the Copper Tops and have come out on top of all of the others tested so far.

It is a common belief that Costco's Kirkland cells are simply re-labeled Duracell Ultra's. I added the Kirkland test results to the Duracell's. It would appear that they are a bit less than the Ultra's.

4/19/07 Update: Archangel sent me some additional Kirkland cells to check out to see if they are the same as the original ones I tested. The original cells were labeled 2011. The ones Mike sent me were labeled 2013. As you can see, they behave similar at 1 amp, but seem to have fallen off a little at 0.5 amps. Thanks Mike.

Here is the data:











A couple of side notes:
The Ultra's were more expensive than the Copper Tops at the store I was in.
These cells ran hotter than the others. Testing was done at 68 degrees (F) and the cells quickly heated up to 78 degrees. They stayed there, but I don't recall that happening on the other tests. This was consistent in both the 0.5, and 1.0 Amp Rates.

12/1/04
I found some Dorcy Mastercell batteries. I don't know who makes Dorcy cells, but I threw in a comparison with the Energizer Max. You can refer to the legend to compare them with the other cells tested earlier.































9/30/05
I was going to test some e2 Energizer cells for comparison and I finally got around to doing it.

I went to the store and also picked up a pack of Energizer Max cells to see if there were any changes since last years tests.

At 0.5 amps, the e2 cells have 4% greater capacity over the Max cells purchased in 2004, and 32% greater capacity over the Max cells purchased in 2005.

At 1.0 amps, the e2 cells have 11% greater capacity over the Max cells purchased in 2004, and 32% greater capacity over the Max cells purchased in 2005.

Hello Energizer, what is going on here...?

Here is the data:






11/12/05
Winny noticed that IKEA not only offers furniture but also has a line of Alkaline AA batteries. As far as I know, these are not available in the US. He was kind enough to send me some for testing.

Thank you Andreas.

I was not sure of the capacity, but did notice that the cells are labeled 1.5V LR6 Mignon-AA-AM3-MN1500 and are made in Germany.

I decided to do a 0.25 amp run to check the capacity. It looks like they are around 1500 mAh cells. Andreas sent me some extra cells, so I did an additional run at 1.5 and 2.0 amps.

Here are the test results:






2/15/06
Onthebeam sent me some CSV AA’s to check out. I have added those, as well as the IKEA cells to the comparison graphs at the beginning of this post.

Thank you John.

Since the graphs were getting a bit cluttered up, I added the data in tabular form. Once again it is sorted on WattHours, with the highest at the top of the list.

4/6/07 GCBStokes sent me some Nuon Powerizer Lithium Iron AA cells to check out. These are labeled as 2900 mAh at a 1 amp draw. They do seem to come very close to their rating, but their voltage curve is a bid different. The Energizer L91 cells still lead in Watt Hours, and hold higher voltage during the start.

Here is the data.







Tom


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## greenlight

Well done Tom. I started using lithium aa energizer in my Inova X1 and I like the fact that they are lighter and more powerful than alkalines. That said, whenever alkaline batteries go on sale at whichever source, it's nice to know a little bit about them. Thanks for doing this research for us.


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## MoonRise

Wow, thanks for the info Tom. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/happy14.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/goodjob.gif


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## Doug S

Nice nice work, Tom. It is nice to see those Eveready lithiums actually out performing their datasheets.


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## evan9162

It's also nice to see that the uber-cheap Ray-o-vac max alkalines are good performers as well.

It's also depressing (encouraging as well) to see that a single AA NiMH can perform nearly as well as a D-cell alkaline at high discharge rates (over 1A). In fact, for a 3A discharge, you're better off to put 3AA NiMH's in parallel. You'll get 3 times the capactity, and it should weigh less too.


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## Doug S

Certainly shows that chemistry and discharge rate matters! An AAA lithium at 0.5A delivers more Whr than either Duracell or Eveready D at 3A.

BTW, Tom, a couple of typos noted: Duracell WHr on 0.5A "D" graph [value shown is way too low], "Wh" omitted for Eveready Industial. 1A AA graph.


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## junior

It seems from what some of you guys are stating that lithium AA and AAA are the way to go for us flashoholics. 

What say you?


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## Kiessling

I really love lithiums ...
Thanx for the tremendous work you invested to enlighten us!
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbsup.gif
This is CPF!
bernhard


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## koala

Wow you and your west mountain cba really did the job well. Thanks for sharing.


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## Sigman

This is EXCELLENT data added to the halls of the CPF Tom - great graphs and they "posted" well indeed! Thank you for taking this on!


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## SilverFox

I must say that this was a lot of work to keep track of. I had hoped it would present well and it seems to be readable. There is a lot of information on those graphs.

I found the Panasonic Power Edge cells very interesting. They are listed for camera use and are a bit expensive. The must have a bit different chemistry because they were able to keep the voltage up until they died out. 

The Energizer Industrial batteries were also interesting. I had limited supplies of the D cells and you can see the bouncing around in the middle of the discharge curve. Several of the other cells exhibited similar behavior, but I culled them out of the display because I thought something had come loose with the test set up. There is nothing loose, it is just the way these cells work.

I was disappointed that the Radio Shack Plus cells under performed the regular Radio Shack cells. I printed a copy of the graph and gave it to the Radio Shack manager. He is going to check it out. If I hear back from him, I'll post what he says.

The Lithium batteries are more expensive, but they stand head and shoulders above everything else. I use to think that they were too expensive for day to day use and kept them for camping trips and specific occasions. I am now leaning towards using them for day to day use as well. I really did not think the difference was that great, but it is...

I got the Battery Analyzer to check out my rechargeable cells. I found this testing to be a pleasent diversion.

Tom


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## PeLu

Wonderful data given .-) (and supports what I wrote in another thread). 
Only thing to mention: Did you stop discharging the D-cells at 0.8V or did you have the data down to 0.6V? 
There is still some juice left in them at 0.8V. 
(no discussion if it makes sense, some device may benefit from it, some not). 
I think I should send you a few Li D-cells to test .-)
(or buy such a device by myself). 
Thanks for your work and expenses!


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## SilverFox

Hello PeLu,

I took data on all of the tests down to 0.5 volts and there is some life in the D cells down there. The 0.8 volt cut off is at the top of the rapid drop off. The amount of life left depends on the load. At the 0.5 Amp Rate, things dropped off fast, but at the 3.0 Amp Rate, the drop off was more gradual.

I was interested in comparing the capacity at higher loads to what the manufacturers publish. The published data seems to have two termination points, 1.0 volt and 0.8 volts. I choose 0.8 volts, but you can interpret the data at 1.0 volts as well.

I knew the capacities dropped off with higher loads, but did not know how much. I found it interesting that an AA rated at 2.85 Amp Hours is only capable of 0.9 Amp Hours under a 1.0 Amp load. Likewise the D cells rated at 18 Amp Hours come up with just over 5 Amp Hours of capacity under a 1.0 Amp load.

Another interesting observation was that the batteries did not heat up. The AAA cells at 1.0 Amp Rate got up to 75 degrees (F), but only the D cells at the 3.0 Amp Rate got warm towards the end of the test (around 88 degrees F).

Li D cells should follow a similar curve as the AA cells, just run a lot longer. The test of the D cells at the 0.5 Amp Rate ran for over 24 hours, so figure about 3 times that for a Li D cell.

Tom


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## Doug S

[ QUOTE ]
*SilverFox said:*
Li D cells should follow a similar curve as the AA cells, just run a lot longer. The test of the D cells at the 0.5 Amp Rate ran for over 24 hours, so figure about 3 times that for a Li D cell.

Tom 

[/ QUOTE ]
Tom, actually not. The Lithium D cells that PeLu is talking about are a different chemistry. 
BTW, I edited my remark about typos to make them easier to find.


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## Filament

Great and useful information. Was any kind of economic/break-even data gathered? It doesn't really matter to me, I use the lithiums in all my lights and GPS unit for storage/cold weather performance, just a thought. Thanks again for the great work!


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## greenLED

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/happy14.gif
Awesome! Thank you.


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## Phaserburn

Impressive study!

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/happy14.gif


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## Kill-O-Zap

Great stuff! Thanks!

I love it when the cheaper products outperform. Previous studies have suggested that ROV-MAX is a good performer for the money, and this confirms it.

BTW, I see "Duracell" but not "Duracell Ultra". I'd love to see the Ultras tested.

Also, Kodak has some "oxy-alkaline" AA's, which they claim are better for high drain applications. Are these the Kodaks you tested? If not, I'd like to see the oxys tested. I would be willing to mail you a couple of these.

The Heavy Duty curves make me laugh /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif There was a recent news story about the passing of the guy that invented Alkalines /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif. The new technology was a bit of a tough sell in the company at the time. Hello? didn't they have a CBA? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif


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## xenopus

Excellent work -- will you have a chance to test the Duracell Ultra's? Where did you get your Energizer Industrial cells from, may I ask? 

The derating of the alkaline cells under load is really bad -- especially for our regulated circuits, which like to take more and more current as voltage declines!
Thanx!


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## jtr1962

These are interesting results. I always knew alkaline performed very poorly in high-drain applications, but I didn't realize how bad they really were until now. At 3 amps the D cells have less capacity than most AA NiMHs! This data simply underscores the point that rechargeables should always be used in high-drain applications.


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## PlayboyJoeShmoe

Very nice!

I use NimH in EDC light, lithium in lights that either get much brighter with them, or that I really want to work next year. And alkalines in most everything else.

I really need some 3AAtoD holders in series and in paralel, but alas /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/broke.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/broke.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/broke.gif


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## Lynx_Arc

I wonder how long a lithium battery would work in my remote control.... a zillion channel changes? would the battery die of old age or run down first?


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## jayflash

Thanks so much for spending your time on this helpful project.

It confirms my non-scientific experience, closely. Ray O Vacs are cheaper than the big "Two" and often on sale, thus making them a good value.


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## flashlight

[ QUOTE ]
*koala said:*
Wow you and your west mountain cba really did the job well. Thanks for sharing. 

[/ QUOTE ]


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## PeLu

[ QUOTE ]
*jtr1962 said:* At 3 amps the D cells have less capacity than most AA NiMHs! 

[/ QUOTE ]

The best D cell tested comes to 2.1 Ah at 3A. Show me an AA cell which can do that!
But basically you are right. 
Next step could be testing various NiMH cells. All of mine are highly overrated.
If I could get such a CBA device (maybe there is one inexpensively available somewhere in the world .-) I promise to sacrify one or more of these valuable LiSO2 D cells, maybe even a LiSOCl2...


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## radellaf

Wow, great to have that data, proving that the 30 for $10 RoVs are a good deal, and that the $$ lithiums are a decent value even at 500mA.

I'll second the suggestion that Duracell Ultra cells should be worth including.


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## SilverFox

I have been out of contact for a few days.

As far as testing other cells, I will make a list and see how much budget I have. If anyone wants to send me a couple of cells I would be happy to run them through the test.

I have also noticed that Energizer e2 cells are supposed to be higher capacity and I may have to take a look at them.

The Kodak cells were marked USA on the packaging. The fine print on the cells listed that they were Kodak. I don't believe they are the same as the oxy cells.

Tom


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## Mark2

Great and much needed work, thanks!


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## SilverFox

Hello Doug S,

Thanks for catching the errors. I believe I have everything corrected, but please check again.

The 0.5 Amp Rate on the D cells provided more data than could fit into an Excel spreadsheet. I split it over two sheets and made an error in transferring data from the end of the first sheet to the beginning of the second one. The Wh value should be correct for the Duracell D now. I was close, the Ah and M values were correct, but I fouled up on the Wh column.

Tom


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## SilverFox

Hello PeLu,

You have peaked my curiosity. I will have to see if I can come up with a D LiSO2 cell to test. Where did you get yours from?

Tom


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## SilverFox

Hello Filament,

It is hard to do an economic break down because of the wide variety of sale prices. I decided to present the data in terms of performance and leave the rest for others to do.

I suppose a performance per unit price comparison could be made, but I think the best performance comes from the lithium cells, as you have discovered.

Tom


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## SilverFox

Hello Kill-O-Zap,

I guess I will have to get some Duracell Ultra cells and do a chart comparing them to the Copper Top cells.

I suppose the Kodak cells could be done in a similar fashion.

Tom


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## SilverFox

Hello Xenopus,

Welcome to CPF.

I got the Energizer Industrial cells from hardware stores in Ketchikan and Juneau Alaska. They had just arrived in time for winter.

Tom


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## SilverFox

I found some Duracell Ultra AA's and added a comparison chart to the end of my original post.

It appears we have a new winner. The Ultra AA's beat everything else, so far.

Tom


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## Ginseng

Tom,
I just found this thread. I don't use alkies too much but I certainly appreciate the hard work you put into this and the data. Very comprehensive and nicely controlled. High quality information. 
Thanks!
Wilkey


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## SilverFox

Hello Wilkey,

Thanks.

I should also point out that Alkaline cells seem to have a bit of life left in them after the test. I did a second run on a Duracell Ultra after testing it to 0.5 volts at the 0.5 Amp Rate. After letting the cell rest for a while, it gave another 20 minutes of power. A third test showed another 5 minutes of run time, but it dropped off pretty fast.

Tom


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## jamaica

[ QUOTE ]
*SilverFox said:*

I found the Panasonic Power Edge cells very interesting.
[snip] They must have a bit different chemistry because
they were able to keep the voltage up until they died out. 

Tom 

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks loads -- I've often longed for exactly this kind
of data.

The Panasonic Power Edge voltage does stand out, and
the cell *is* different -- OxyAlkaline.
Imaging Resource - Product announcement

That the Panasonics hold up their voltage better
might catch the interest of folks using direct-drive
(DD) or resistors in their lights -- my cells measure
1.7v fresh out of the package. The voltage drops with
time of course, but it does give a number of my lights
a noticeable boost.

Thanks again!
Jamaica


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## SilverFox

Hello Jamaica,

Thanks for the link.

To get a 43% increase, the camera must shut down at around 1.1 volts per cell. I believe most cameras run close to the 1.0 Amp Rate with everything turned on.

Tom


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## R983

It seems like with everything someone has to bite the bullet and do a lot of research to find the truth about something, but in the end it usually pays off in a big way. I probably speak for everyone here in the fact that it was great to be able to finally cross reference our own battery tests and preconceived notions with some hard data. 

If there’s any device that burns up AA cells it has to be my Olympus digital camera. Regular Duracell and Energizer batteries are all but completely dead in about an hour of usage. The Ultras and E2 last quite a while longer, but the best results I’ve encountered are with the Ray-o-vac maximum plus. I now use these batteries in pretty much everything, plus they’re sometimes less than half the cost of the ultras and e2’s. 

To keep this thread going, what does everyone recommend for CR123A’s? I know the Surefires are quite good; I’ve had good luck with Duracell Ultras, but just recently had some bad Energizer photo E2’s so I probably won’t buy those again. Not to mention the photo E2’s are 6 and change a piece even at my local Wal-Mart. I actually just had to settle for a pair of the Browning Black Ice 123’s because the store was out of Surefires. I got a 2 pack for 5 bucks which I wasn’t going to argue with. They seem plenty powerful to start off with in my Scorpion, we’ll see how they last.

Rich


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## jamaica

Tom,
The link was my pleasure, just to show the Panasonics
were oxyalkalines. I've seen more informative press
releases, but can't recall where.

Except in emergencies, I only use NiMH rechargeables
in digicams. I keep a set of the Panasonics handy in
case I get caught with flat NiMHs, as they will go just
sitting for a few weeks after charging, but otherwise
it's NiMH for me.

You're right about the digicams. Of mine, one draws
600mA powered up with the LCD on, 90mA active but with
the LCD off, and a whopping 1.1A peak when writing an
image to flash. The other draws 740mA /100mA /1.2A,
respectively. Tough numbers for alkaline cells, as
your graphs amply show. (though if I refrain from
using the LCD these cameras can do pretty well from
alks, in a pinch.)

Thanks again for the great data!

Cheers,
Jamaica


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## radellaf

So, if I'm running one of the new MiniMag Krypton bulbs (350-390mA) and buying Ray-O-Vac 30-packs for $10 (Lowe's), Duracell Ultra 16-packs for $10 (BJs), and E2 Lithium 12-packs for $20 (Sam's), the Ray-O-Vacs are cheapest, the Ultras will give me 15-20% more life for 2x the cost (1.6x the price per minute), and the lithiums 250% more life for 5x the cost (2x the price per minute).

Something that drew an amp would give me 39% more life (1.44x cost, 1.40x cost per W/h) or 341% life (1.47x cost per minute, 1.29x cost per W/h). A Tec20 with Xe MagNum Star might come close to this.

So for most of my flashlights I'd say the Ultras aren't worth the trouble, and the Lithiums might be worth half again to twice the price for the higher brightness and substantially increased run-time and shelf-life.

What I intend to find out is how long the new krypton minimag bulbs will last running off the lithium cells. Given the experiences with xenon vs. krypton 3-cell lamps in a Tec 40 with 4 NiMHs (33% over-voltage), I'd expect the krypton to tolerate the up-to-50% over-voltage better than the MagNum Star or Brinmann NexStar bulbs. 

The MagNum Star OTOH would probably pull down the voltage pretty fast, but my Tec20 is presently hosting an EverLED and 2x2300mAh NiMHs and will probably stay thusly configured.


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## SilverFox

Hello Radellaf,

Using your purchase prices and the performance at the 500 mA rate, I come up with Ray O Vac's costing $0.33/cell or $0.002/minute, Ultra's costing $0.63/cell or $0.003/minute, and Lithium's costing $1.67/cell or $0.004/minute.

With the improved performance of the Lithium's, I would tend to go with them even though they cost an additional $0.002/minute to use.

Tom


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## LEDmodMan

I have missed this thread up till now. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon3.gif

There is some GREAT data here! Thanks SilverFox!

I want to ask if there is any way you could test the Costco branded AA alkaline batteries?

Many of us here use them, and previous testing by large firms show them to perform similarly to the duracell ultras. I would be really interested to know if that is true or not, so much so that if you can't get some batts locally, I will ship you some (however many you need up to 4) for free for the test. I would love to see an independent test of those done. Knowing Costco, it won't surprise me if they're close to the best, if not the best battery while being the best buy to boot. It that doesn't hold true, it will be my first real disappointment with Costco.

Let me know if you need the batts. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink2.gif Thanks!


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## SilverFox

Hello LEDmodMan,

I have some Kirkland's around here, but am not sure how fresh they are. I'll get some new ones and see how well they do. 

I also plan to pick up some e2's and see how they do.

Tom


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## Filament

Thanks again SilverFox. On the "economic" analysis, I completely agree that it would be next to impossible to come up with an all-inclusive price comparison. My Dad, like alot of people, buys alkalines strictly on price, based on an article in Consumers Reports some years back. I've recently gone with Ni-MH for my kids Gameboys. Again, thanjs for all the great work!


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## SilverFox

I am in the middle of testing some Kirkland AA's. Those of you that were thinking that Costco simply was putting their label on Duracell Ultra's may be disappointed. Early results indicate that they are falling short of the Ultra's.

Tom


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## SilverFox

I have added the Costco Kirkland AA results to the Duracell comparison graphs. It is commonly held that the Kirkland batteries are simply re-labeled Duracell Ultra's. I am sorry to announce that the Kirkland cells, while still very good, fall a bit short of the Ultra's.

Tom


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## Lynx_Arc

The biggest problem to trying to find the best bang for the buck is only the name brand cells can be store bought everywhere easily.... a lot of the cheaper generic alkalines are not available, we don't have a costo within 200 miles of here that I know of so kirkland means nothing to me unless they are cheap enough to have mailed here compared to generic brands offered at walmart and other dollar/budget stores.

another concern is *generic* cells that are independantly made and sold by other than manufacturer can suddenly change makers and runtimes etc if economics change. Kirkland cells etc could suddenly change to a different manufacturer if they get a better deal on cost per cell.


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## Doug S

Tom, on the Duracell Ultra/Kirkland 0.5A chart there is something fishy about the Whr figures. The Ultra value should be higher than the Kirkland.


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## SilverFox

Hello Doug,

I seem to be having a problem with my Watt Hour numbers. Have no idea where that number came from, but thanks for catching it. I had the correct number in my totals spreadsheet, but I must have copied something else into the graph legend. 

It is corrected now. I even double checked my double check... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Tom


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## SilverFox

Hello Lynx Arc,

Good points.

I put a date in my original post. I plan to re-check the tests from time to time to see if there are any significant changes in the generic brand cells.

Do you have any Rite Aid drug stores in Tulsa? 

If you find a specific generic brand that you are interested in, send me some cells and I will run them through the test.

Tom


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## snakebite

any clues to the oem of the rite aid cells?


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## SilverFox

Hello Snakebite,

No idea.

The package simply states:
Distributed By
Rite Aid Corporation
Harrisburg, PA 17105

and on the batteries is added:
Made in USA

Tom


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## Lynx_Arc

[ QUOTE ]
*SilverFox said:*
Hello Lynx Arc,

Good points.

I put a date in my original post. I plan to re-check the tests from time to time to see if there are any significant changes in the generic brand cells.

Do you have any Rite Aid drug stores in Tulsa? 

If you find a specific generic brand that you are interested in, send me some cells and I will run them through the test.

Tom 

[/ QUOTE ]

Nope, never heard of Rite Aid till I got in this forum, I think Walgreens and Mays are our *equivelents* of them about the only generics we have are walmart and walgreens brands here, I suspect if you have a sample of the generics you could probably guess if they changed vendors by comparing packaging methods. I see packaging of generic walmart batteries that is identical to rayovac and confirmed it when they left a cardboard holder on an 8 pack of D cells I bought that said on the bottom something like made by rayovac for walmart. I suspect either they ran them on the same line or perhaps in testing culled out the slightly lesser cells for them to sell or changed the formulae to a slightly less powerful version.


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## SilverFox

Hello Lynx Arc,

I did test some Wal Mart batteries. They are listed as EverActive on the charts.

Tom


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## LEDmodMan

Tom,
Thanks for the Costco data! While not quite as good as the Duracell Ultras, they're still pretty darn good! I recall the cost per cell being right down there with some of the cheapest. Good to know they performed so well overall. Right up there with the Rite Aid cells at 0.5A, and slightly better at 1A. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif

Thanks for all of this GREAT info!!! Keep up the good work! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/happy14.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/clap.gif


----------



## Lynx_Arc

[ QUOTE ]
*SilverFox said:*
Hello Lynx Arc,

I did test some Wal Mart batteries. They are listed as EverActive on the charts.

Tom 

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, I saw that. I bought an 8 pack of everactive D cells there awhile back, they were the cheapest I could find of any around here in alkalines for my few 2D flashlights I have as backup kitchen drawer type lights and toolbox truck light, lights that sit for years sometimes without much use.

What gets me is the price disparity between heavy duty and alkaline batteries. I don't recall any runtimes on cpf for them and don't think it worth doing a *shootout* but it would be interesting to know if they have any value to them as far as throwaway lights or kiddie lights since a lot of stuff comes with them for free. I almost find it annoying to get them with a nice light and have to figure out what to put them in to run them down to get rid of them.


----------



## SilverFox

Hello Lynx Arc,

The Ray O Vac Heavy Duty cells that I tested only lasted a little over 30 minutes at a 500 mA draw. The 1000 mA load only had a run time of just a bit over 5 minutes.

The Heavy Duty batteries may work better in very low current draw applications.

Tom


----------



## snakebite

i found a hint as to why they performed so well.
look at the - end and notice 2 spotwelds for 2 cathode rods.
lower internal resistance.
i didnt have time to look further but i bet they are from 1 of the big 3.
likely duracell ultra or energizer e2?

[ QUOTE ]
*SilverFox said:*
Hello Snakebite,

No idea.

The package simply states:
Distributed By
Rite Aid Corporation
Harrisburg, PA 17105

and on the batteries is added:
Made in USA

Tom 

[/ QUOTE ]


----------



## Lynx_Arc

[ QUOTE ]
*SilverFox said:*
Hello Lynx Arc,

The Ray O Vac Heavy Duty cells that I tested only lasted a little over 30 minutes at a 500 mA draw. The 1000 mA load only had a run time of just a bit over 5 minutes.

The Heavy Duty batteries may work better in very low current draw applications.

Tom 

[/ QUOTE ]

One thing I have noticed when I was draining batteries on my night light is all of them sag more and more as they get closer to death. I had some drained down to .4v and a day later they were at 1v or so. Have you tried any of these batteries a day after to see if they recovered any?

Oh, thanks for the Heavy Duty review.. seems they are even worse compared to alkaline than I thought. Maybe under 100ma loads they fare better but I quit buying them years ago, I keep getting free ones when I buy a cheap light and was wondering if giveaway lights would be ok with them.
From what I see they should outlaw heavy duty batteries as polluting since run time is rediculously pitiful compared to alkalines.


----------



## SilverFox

Hello Lynx Arc,

I did a second and third run on the Duracell Ultra's at a 0.5 Amp Rate after letting them rest for a while. The second test gave me a run time of 20 minutes. The thrid run only gave me 5 minutes.

Tom


----------



## Lynx_Arc

I would guess the better the cells the less *spring* they would have and more current they could put out without needing to recover. So this would say you could get an extra 25 minutes run time if you were not using the light sporadically instead of continuous at that current rate. I wouldn't consider additional run time after the 5 minutes third run as being noticeable for I would guess it would be in the rang of perhaps a minute or so. What would be an interesting test is to simulate a duty cycle instead of continuous run... like 10 minutes on, 20 or more minutes off to recover but I would guess that it most likely would come up with similar time if adding up the 3 runs together.


Interesting to know that those cells can recover enough to get almost another 30 minutes of runtime out of them.


----------



## Zelandeth

Just out of curiousity, have you had the chance to try these tests using Duracell Ultra M3's? These are considerably more expensive, but seem to last a LOT longer than the standard Ultra's in my camera. Lasting me a month of normal use, whereas the normal Ultras expire after about 2 weeks usually.


----------



## SilverFox

Hello Zelandeth,

I have not looked for the Duracell Ultra M3's, but will keep an eye out for them. If I can find them, I'll add them to the list.

I just picked up some Dorcy Mastercell Alkaline's. I will be testing them and adding the results as I finish.

Tom


----------



## Zelandeth

Thanks, if you can't find any PM me and I might be able to send you a few.


----------



## SilverFox

Hello Zelandeth,

I just checked and the Ultra's listed in the test are the M3's. I focused on the Ultra and ignored the M3 up in the corner.

Now is there a Duracell Ultra that is not M3? Everywhere I check around here they have the Copper Top and the Ultra M3. The 123's are plain Ultra, but the others are Ultra M3.

Tom


----------



## SilverFox

I found some Dorcy Mastercell batteries. I have added them to the first post. I don't know who makes them, but I put the data from the Energizer Max test as a comparison. The legend information offers a comparison to the other brands.

Tom


----------



## cue003

great information and thanks for all your hard work.

Curtis


----------



## John N

And I thought you did a lot of work on the 123A shootout! This is very cool. Thank you!

For those of you who have bad eyes like I do , here are the graphs at 300%: [large graphs]

-john


----------



## John N

[ QUOTE ]
*SilverFox said:*
Hello Radellaf,

Using your purchase prices and the performance at the 500 mA rate, I come up with Ray O Vac's costing $0.33/cell or $0.002/minute, Ultra's costing $0.63/cell or $0.003/minute, and Lithium's costing $1.67/cell or $0.004/minute.

With the improved performance of the Lithium's, I would tend to go with them even though they cost an additional $0.002/minute to use.

Tom 

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this would be even more interesting if we factored in the 123A lithium cells considering their prices compared to the lithium AAs.

-john


----------



## SilverFox

Peter (PeLu) and Henry (HDS Systems) provided me with some Lithium Sulpher Dioxide (LiSO2) cells to check out.

I added the test results to the Lithium VS Alkaline section and compared them to the Ray O Vac Max Plus D cells. The LiSO2 cells are 3 volt, but the thing that impressed me was that they maintained close to their 7.5 Ah capacity regardless of the current draw. Also note the very stable voltage.

If you happen to note that the voltage raised during the initial part of the test, this is normal for these cells. It seems an oxidation layer of some sort forms inside the cells and you need to "burn through" it to get to the full capacity.

Tom


----------



## John N

Thanks Peter, Henry and Tom! This is great. Makes that $15 a cell look a lot more attractive!

-john


----------



## GarageBoy

How about the "titanium technology" energizers? 
I'll go pick up some rite-aids since I have NO batteries in the house


----------



## SilverFox

Hello GarageBoy,

I guess I have ignored the titanium Energizers. I may have to check them out.

Tom


----------



## chumley

I tried out a 4 pack of the titanium Energizer AA's. All 4 batteries died with very little use. I put them into a PT Vortec headlamp, and didn't use it right away. When I tried to use it the lamp was dim and went out within 30 seconds.

I put the 3 cells that still worked into another light. then I found that another cell died with almost no use.

Then another one of the 2 cells that were left, died in a 2 cell light. I sent an email to Energizer, and they sent me 2 $5.00 coupons. So I was happy with Energizer anyways.

Those titaniums might be OK, I might have gotten a bad batch. I just never had new batteries die so quickly.


----------



## GarageBoy

hmm


----------



## PeLu

[ QUOTE ]
*SilverFox said:*
Peter (PeLu) and Henry (HDS Systems) provided me with some Lithium Sulpher Dioxide (LiSO2) cells to check out.

[/ QUOTE ]

You did not state which cell is from whom. This might be quite a difference as I Have to check first how old my cells are. I've got them from a failed industrial project (not my own, my projects use to succeed .-) two years ago, but they might be older. 
If people are interested, I'll check it. And, of course, I do not know how they have been stored before I got them. 

As I wrote SilverFox I do also have numerous LiSOCl2 cells in spiral wound (that means high load ones). I'm currently fighting with mysels if I should donate one, too.
I've bought them for the normal wholesale list price, which is only slighty less than the usual street price....

And urther, when comparing D-cells I would compare them for about the same power (what a pity the CBA does not have a constant power option now). 
That means that you should put twice the current on the alkalines...


----------



## SilverFox

Hello Peter,

The test results posted are from your cells. Henry's have not arrived yet, but I expect them very soon. He is sending me two sets to verify the results I got with yours. I believe he is sending the Saft LiSO2 cells that he sells.

Email's have been sent to WestMountainRadio requesting an upgrade to test at a constant power. I have not heard back from them yet.

Tom


----------



## ODatsBright

I just 'had' to have one of these toys, mainly to test my extensive "collection" of NiMH batteries, I know I got a lot of ones that need disposing of. I plan on doing some tests myself and checking out how the results match the ones already done.


----------



## SilverFox

Hello ODatsBright,

West Mountain Radio is almost ready to release their upgraded CBA. It will be able to test at lower Amp Rates. It can also test at 0.0 amps. This allows you to hook leads to a battery in your charger and get a graph of the charging cycle.

My unit is in for the firmware upgrade, and I am going to Beta test the software when I get it back.

I believe this new and improved unit will be even more useful for checking your batteries.

Tom


----------



## flashlight

My CBA (Revision 1) is on sale here but I paid 'extra' for international shipping so I think only someone outside of the US would be interested. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon23.gif


----------



## aestryker

ok have any of you compared alkaline batteries with heavy duty batteries? I have heard that alkaline are better and are to last longer than the heavy duty ones.If this is true i would gladly pay a little more for the alkalines.Give me your feedback.


----------



## SilverFox

Hello Aestryker,

Welcome to CPF.

The only Heavy Duty cells I tested were the Ray O Vac AAA and AA's. Their performance was not very good in comparison to the alkaline's at the currents I was testing at. The graphs are a bit full of information, but you should be able to find the information on them in my first post.

The Heavy Duty cells are supposed to be suited for low current applications, but I think Alkaline's will still beat them. I need to do a test at 0.05 amps or something like that to see if the Heavy Duty cells can make a showing for themselves.

Tom


----------



## aestryker

Oh yea there is a pretty good difference.I tried a set of alkalines in my sons game boy and man what a difference.It has been almost a week now and they are still going strong.With the heavy duty ones he would have been begging for new ones by now.I cant believe it.


----------



## videoguy

Definetly Alkaline batteries all teh way.
Tried of heavy duty crap dying in my mp3 player all the time so i switched to alkalines...world of difference!


----------



## aestryker

I know what you mean.It always seem like my batteries in my camera want to die right when that perfect picture moment arrises.Not no more now that i use alkalines.


----------



## twentysixtwo

wOW, Fantastic job and presentation. One question I have lurking in the back of my mind is the battery to battery variation - if you ran say, 6 or 8 batteries of the same brand and type, what would the difference in capacity and performance be?


----------



## SilverFox

Hello Twentysixtwo,

Most of the tests were done with a minimum of 2 batteries for each run. I saw little difference in the test results between the test runs.

I am curious if I run a test a year from now if the results will be similar.

Tom


----------



## chevrofreak

I'd like to see a test of the Eveready Super Heavy Duty batteries. Target has them in their $1 area, in a 4 pack. They also have some 2 packs of apparently higher grade batteries.

I'm running the D cells in my 4D [email protected]


----------



## Gary1274

Interesting read, I've recently switched over from the cheap heavy duty batteries to alkaline and noticed right away that they last much longer. chevro I think you'll find that heavy duty won't last nearly as long as alkaline. At least in my experience.


----------



## aestryker

I also would like to see a test between the alkalines and heavy duty.I now know that alkalines are better but how much.By the way has anyone else heard the comercial on the radio about this?


----------



## SilverFox

Hello Chevrofreak and Aestryker,

I have checked out various technical information on the Heavy Duty batteries available from various manufacturers. The all seem to publish similar data to what I have shown.

For example, Energizer lists the capacity of an AA Heavy Duty battery as 1.100 Ah with a 0.025 amp load. If you look at the constant discharge graph, this works out to around 30 minutes at a 0.5 amp load. The Ray O Vac's I tested ran for 31.6 minutes which tells me that the Energizer's are very similar to the Ray O Vac's. In this chemistry, I suspect that the other brands would be very similar.

My purpose in testing the cells, was to demonstrate the performance under loads that we would see while using our lights. In this context, the Heavy Duty batteries do not hold up very well at all. The Ray O Vac Heavy Duty battery gave me about 32 minutes of run time with a steep voltage decline, where the Ray O Vac Alkaline battery gave me close to 180 minutes with a much more stable voltage decline. Looking strictly at run time, you would end up changing the Heavy Duty batteries about 6 times to get the same run time from one Alkaline battery. I suppose that a cost comparison could suggest something a bit different, but I'll stay away from them for my applications.

Now, if you have a light that only draws 0.025 amps, you might be able to get the rated performance from them. On the other hand the Alkaline batteries with 2.6X the capacity (in the same size) would give you even longer run times.

At any rate, I doubt I will be testing any more Heavy Duty batteries.

Tom


----------



## paulr

Wow, I finally got around to reading this great thread.
I think the first couple graphs with the lithium AA's must be mislabelled--the lithiums are shown as 1.xx AH in the first graph and 3.4 in the second. 

I'd be interested in a test of Walgreen alkaline cells since those are the cheapest C and D sized alkalines I know of (12 for $9.99 regular price). I can send you a few if you want to test them.


----------



## SilverFox

Hello Paul,

I think you got the graphs a bit confused. The first Lithium graph is for AAA cells, the second and third are for AA cells. 

Thanks for your offer of Walgreen cells. I have a Walgreen just down the road, so I don't think that will be necessary. I'll stop by and pick some up.

I am trying to get some time to add some C cell testing to these graphs. Too many toys... Priorities, Priorities, Priorities...

Tom


----------



## eebowler

Hello SilverFox. First of all, I would like to thank you very much for all the effort and finances you've put into making these wonderful charts. A guid like what you have provided is invaluable to us all. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif


[ QUOTE ]
*SilverFox said:*
Hello Lynx Arc,

I did a second and third run on the Duracell Ultra's at a 0.5 Amp Rate after letting them rest for a while. The second test gave me a run time of 20 minutes. The thrid run only gave me 5 minutes.

Tom 

[/ QUOTE ]
With respect to the above statement and to what Lynx_Arc has been saying.I have a few coments and questions if you don't mind...

Ok, for alkaline cells it is a fact that at low current loads (am I using the terms correctly?) the observed mAh numbers approach what manufacturers rate their cells at. It is also a fact that the observed mAh numbers of the cells at high current draws are much lower than the manufacturer's ratings.

Energiser rates their D cells at 18.000Ah. I would assume that if you reduce the load to some rediculously low value, you may actually reach (or even surpass)the rating of 18Ah right? To me this means that a D size Energizer Max cell has the chemicals inside of it to provide under ideal conditions 18Ah of energy. If that is the case,then what happens to the rest of the energy (16.875Ah)when put onder a load of 3A? 

Without being properly informed as yet, my theory(assumption) is this: We all know that alkaline cells have the ability to rejuvinate. This has been proven in the quote above. What I believe is that when left to rejuvinate, a cell tested under 3A initially will provide much more energy when tested a second and third (or more)time compared to a cell initially tested under a load of .5A. I believe that cells tested at .5A will use up a higher percentage of its total energy in the first run compared to a cell tested at 3A... 

Does my logic make sense? SilverFox do you have any of the cells you put through the tests? Are they labled? Would it be possible to put them through other tests to determine how much total energy they have? (or if my theory is correct?)

Thanks alot guys...


----------



## SilverFox

Hello Eebowler,

Interesting questions... 

I believe the answer has to do with heat. At higher current drains, the internal resistance of the cell uses up the chemistry and produces heat. When the cell cools down, it rejuvenates a bit, but not to any great extent. There is some life left, but the voltage drop makes it less than ideal.

I just checked the Energizer web site and the revised numbers for the D cells are a rated capacity of 20.500 Ah when tested at 0.025 amps. This drops down to about 7.000 Ah when tested at 1.0 amp. 

Now we just need to find a light that draws only 0.025 amps and we will be set for some long run time. It would run for about 820 hours.

Tom


----------



## Lynx_Arc

I have found that a 4led array driven at less than 2ma to be of little use for light so I don't think you will get useful light for less than 1ma from a 2 alkaline cell in series combination. I figure 1ma from a boost circuit on a single D cell at 50% efficiency will probably yield about 9000mah or about 375 days.

The major problem with alkalines is voltage sag. They are useful until they hit about 1.2 volts because compared to nimh they have a higher starting voltage thus requiring less amps to power the same device so as long as the voltage doesn't sag the cell under light loads has more capacity than most nimh. If you had a regulated device that would run at 0.5v it could be alkalines would be great as at that voltage after recovering most cells have almost no capacity left to give. I find flashamp testing on alkaline AAs at that voltage to run less than 100ma which equates to about 3% capacity left. Perhaps a buck converter that switches to direct drive driven by about 5AA cells could sip almost every ounce out of the batteries when driving LEDs.


----------



## krisco

Thanks SF for the great work. I've been lurking at CPF for a while just gleaning information to help me in flashlight purchases. Now I stumble across this so I had to join and give you kudos.


----------



## DavidH

Thanks for the great work! I've been using the Ray o Vac Max for a while and have been very happy with them, I guess your graphs show I made a good choice. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif
I can't wait to see the CR123A tests, I think the Sanyo's are pretty good.


----------



## jayflash

Welcome to the CPF, krisco. Gald to have you here and be sure to join right in. Let us in on your experiences and purchases. Later! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink2.gif


----------



## mike101

Hi all guy, 
I left USA to Asia almost half a year, so I missed a lot of things happened there. Is the Lithium AAA already on the market in USA? I don't see any here.


----------



## SilverFox

Hello Mike,

Yes, as a matter of fact you can see the test results of them in the first post of this thread.

Tom


----------



## mike101

Thanks SilverFox, I did read your great first post more than once. That is why I guess the AAA lithium might be in the market now. I forgot to ask how much the price range was in USA. Do you have any info about that?

I've been surfing in the CPF quite a lot and read some report about the Arc AAA and CMG Infinity Ultra's run-time. We know that both light circuits are semi regulated, so the both lights when using alkaline batteries would have the similar specs of max brightness at the first few hours then drop to 50% of brightness running another few hours before the batteries completely drain out. I wonder what the performance will be with the lithium batteries discharge charateristic. I appreciate if anyone can do the test of running these two lights both in alkaline and lithium respectivefully and make the comparison charts of the max brightness, 50% brightness and moon-mode in the relations of lumen(or beam) and run-time. I can't do it myself because I am really short in sources.

I mention Arc AAA and Infinity Ultra because I believe that these two lights are typical, classic, most well known and as a standard of the EDC light at the affordable price range in the flashaholics. They both use one single battery. So I believe that they can be the best measurement to give people a clear idea of the performance of various batteries in the lower end lights.

I think SilverFox or anyone who is willing to do the test, can post the result on a new thread.


----------



## Lynx_Arc

I am sure there have already been lithium runtimes in an arc already. Try searching +arc +lithium +AAA.
AA/AAA lithiums are about 2.50/battery for eveready cells.


----------



## mike101

Thx Lynx, I found a lot of info at here
http://www.candlepowerforums.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=674791&page=&view=&sb=5&o=&fpart=1&vc=1


----------



## eebowler

[ QUOTE ]
*SilverFox said:*
Hello Eebowler,

Interesting questions... 

I believe the answer has to do with heat. At higher current drains, the internal resistance of the cell uses up the chemistry and produces heat. 
Tom 

[/ QUOTE ]

Jeese! That's alot of wasted energy! Thanks for the answer SilverFox /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif


----------



## Lynx_Arc

[ QUOTE ]
*mike101 said:*
Thx Lynx, I found a lot of info at here
http://www.candlepowerforums.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=674791&page=&view=&sb=5&o=&fpart=1&vc=1 

[/ QUOTE ]

I have read a lot of threads about them, sometimes I feel it is best to tell someone how to search for stuff so there will be less posts about people asking the same questions over and over ad nauseum. Maybe someone will start making more FAQs about the most popular topics and have an FAQ forum for people to compress a dozen threads into a few pages of information.


----------



## twentysixtwo

Heavy duty batteries still have a place in the world. They're very cost efficient for low drain devices like clocks and remotes....


----------



## Lynx_Arc

The problem with putting heavy duty batteries in even low drain devices is when they die, there is a greater chance they will leak badly and destroy what they are in than alkalines would. I don't put heavy duty batteries in anything of value or anything I don't monitor often (once or twice a month at least) because of the increased problem of leakage when they near end of life.


----------



## cheesehead

If you can find alkalines for 25 cents or so, how much cheaper can heavy duties be to make them cost efficient? 

Alkalines leak too, if that's a concern, then I'd think you have to go to lithiums.


----------



## Lurveleven

[ QUOTE ]
*cheesehead said:*
If you can find alkalines for 25 cents or so, how much cheaper can heavy duties be to make them cost efficient? 

Alkalines leak too, if that's a concern, then I'd think you have to go to lithiums. 

[/ QUOTE ]

They must pay you to use them to make them cost efficient. Heavy duties should be illegal to sell!! I'm sure a lot of uninformed people buy them because they are a little bit cheaper than alkies. The worst thing is the name, if you didn't know anything about batteries, wouldn't heavy duty sound better than alkaline? Talk about false adverticing. 
I have never had any alkalines leak, even when left dead for a very long time. But when I was a kid we only had heavy duties, and cannot remember any of them not leaking.

Sigbjoern


----------



## cheesehead

LOL,

couldn't agree more.


----------



## mrme

[ QUOTE ]
*cheesehead said:*
If you can find alkalines for 25 cents or so, how much cheaper can heavy duties be to make them cost efficient? 

Alkalines leak too, if that's a concern, then I'd think you have to go to lithiums. 

[/ QUOTE ]

My local dollar store has AA and AAA heavy duty batteries 20 for $1. That is $0.05 each. That is 1/4 the cost of a good deal on an alkaline. 

Even at that price, I won't buy them. Maybe if I were running a gameboy or some other worthless device that had a slow drain rate, but lots of use I would consider them, but never for flashlights. 

I do put heavy duty batteries in things like smoke detectors and garage door opener remotes when they are not mine (but I have an interest in them working).
Also, heavy duty battereies are great for my Harbor Frieght DMM. Pretty much all 9v battery territory.

Edit: Thanks for catching my typo Evan. The dollar store charges $1 for 20 batteries, not $10.


----------



## evan9162

[ QUOTE ]


My local dollar store has AA and AAA heavy duty batteries 20 for $10. That is $0.05 each. That is 1/4 the cost of a good deal on an alkaline. 



[/ QUOTE ]

Errr...that's $0.50 each, about the same as normal alkaline prices. Unless you meant 20 for $1 (it is a dollar store...)


----------



## Lynx_Arc

I have had alkalines leak but the damage they do is usually considerably less than heavy duty. Often you can just scrape off a little powerder and sand or rub the contacts with sandpaper or an eraser, while heavy duty gets liquid all over the place usually rusting everything in sight.

I saw some supreme power AA Alkalines at walmart in an odd place.... 4 for 1.00. They were on a hanger in the light bulb section not anywhere else near where batteries are kept.


----------



## SilverFox

Update:

David Campen sent me some of the Battery Station AA Lithium cells to check out. Thanks David... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

I have added those test results to the first post where I compare the Energizer Lithium's to standard Alkaline's.

The Energizers beat out the Battery Station cells by a small margin, but look out Energizer, Battery Station is in town. The Battery Station cells are also a lot less expensive than the Energizers (I believe Kevin has them at around 20 cells for $20 for his introductory sale).

Tom


----------



## David_Campen

Tom,

Thanks so much for doing all this testing. It is very informative. It is good to see that the BatteryStation Lithium AAs are an alternative to the Energizers.

You have a temperature probe on your Battery Analyzer? If you are ever in need of more diversion it would be very interesting to see discharge curves for batteries at 0 degree C (freezing). I expect that the performance differences between alkaline and Li/FeS2 cells would be even more dramatic. Also, since the room temperature discharge curves show that there are performance differences between the BatteryStation and Energizer Li/FeS2 cells it would be very interesting to see how this extends into lower temperatures.

I figure a test setup could be constructed fairly cheaply using a styrofoam cooler and ice frozen in plastic bottles. If you were ever actually going to do this I would be happy to donate all of the batteries.


----------



## SilverFox

Hello David,

That would indeed be very interesting... 

I am just getting ready to look at NiMh cells, but will put this on my "to do" list. 

It would also be interesting to see how the CR-123A lithium cells perform at lower temperatures as well.

Tom


----------



## jayflash

I won't be purchasing Duracells for personal or business use - the regular and ultras both leak, even when significant life should have remained. I've had variable results with Energizers. Ray O Vacs have been the most reliable, for me, in the past few years, before that Panasonics were king. Of course YMMV.


----------



## mrpeter105

Hi SilverFox:

Just a little problem. The graph for the Dorcy AA for 500 ma doesn't seem to load. The URL for your graph is

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v482/SilverFoxCPF/AADorcyComparison05A.jpg

Photobucket brings up a message saying
"The page you are requesting cannot be found!"


----------



## SilverFox

Hello Mrpeter105,

Not sure what is going on, but it is working fine for me...

Tom


----------



## mrpeter105

Hi SilverFox:

Well, it's working now. A glitch I guess. Thanks.


----------



## Donovan

Great info in this thread! Nice to learn less expensive batteries perform as well or better than "premium" name brand batteries! I always thought the cheaper RayoVac Max @ Wally World performed just as good in my equipment as the higher end batteries, now I have proof!

But whats with those Rite-Aid batteries!?!?! Who makes those things? Someone please find out!


----------



## Ice

I just wanted to thank you for this comparison! I've been looking for tests like this (and some others here) all over the internet and in print magazines for a long time without finding anything worth mentioning. I wouldn't have dreamed of finding so much information brought together in such a compact form! Just great!


----------



## reini23

Hello, Silverfox

What a lot of work - and so greatful results - Thank you!

You wrote


> As far as testing other cells, I will make a list and see how much budget I have.


Perhaps I could help you a little bit solving your budget problem. I searched for "recharge" in this thread, but found nothing: "Sorry - no matches. Please try some different terms."

So, this is my Question:

Why don't you try to *RECHARGE your alkalines*? It's possible!

I'm recharging alkaline batteries for some weeks and my results are positive. Usually I loose 10 % of capacity during one cycle, means, that you can bring back _(sorry for my bad english)_ 90 % of decharging capacity back to your batterie. In long term you can use a alcaline batterie up to 10 times instead of one time. If you're interested, I can give you some instructions.

Reinhard


----------



## SilverFox

Hello Reinhard,

As I understand it, Alkaline cells need to be recharged before they are used up. You use the cell a little, then attempt to charge it back up.

I would love to document this process, but end up totally discharging the cell during testing. I know you can float a surface charge on an Alkaline cell, then utilize that surface charge under very low current drains, but that does not seem to apply very well to flashlight use. 

Tom


----------



## reini23

Hello Silverfox,

as I can see on the first page of this thread, you discharge AA and AAA alcalines with 0.5 and 1.0 Amps. You wrote:


> You use the cell a little, then attempt to charge it back up
> ...
> then utilize that surface charge under very low current drains
> ...
> The capacity is reduced at higher load levels


Ok, that's right. As you mention, my currents are lower: AAA -0.2A +0.1A, AA -0.4 +0.2A. This means, I discharge AA cells at 0.4 (+-0.1) Amp current rate. I stop discharging at 1.0 Volts. These conditions results in higher capacity, that's sure. My best result testing it this way: Decharging Capacity of a two times used and reloaded AA cell 1.076 mAh + 71 mAh adding capacity a few hours later. But I don't think, it's much lower then your testing conditions. I will try to increase discharging current up to 1.0 Amps and expecting the results. And in addition, my batteries aren't new, they all are thrown away recycling cells.

Reinhard


----------



## HarryN

Thanks for that interesting addition on the Energizers. I guess I have gotten complacent - I keep thinking that batteries get BETTER every year, but maybe the bean counters have stepped in.

It also could be that they want more product separation between Li and non Li versions.

Every time I read this thread, I keep thinking that I need to buy some of those HDS Li D cells and put them in something really bright.


----------



## skywatcher

A couple of years ago Consumer Reports magazine did a big test of alkaline batteries. Unfortunately I do not rmember which issue it was. Check your local library for the back issues to find it.

Anyway their conclusion was that most of the brand name batteries were about equal. and to :buy by price and not brand name. 

I have yet to really see how they hold up in my hand held VHF/UHF radios under heavy use.


----------



## Billson

Why bother with any magazine? They can't ever conduct a test as extensive as Silverfox has done. With flashaholics, it matters a great deal to us what the capacities are when subjected to a particular load. Published specs don't mean a thing because the cells will perform differently with different devices drawing varying amounts of current.


----------



## SilverFox

Update:

Winny sent me some IKEA AA cells to check out - Thank you.

The test results are at the bottom of the first post.

A funny thing happened while testing these cells...

I am in the middle of a project involving testing and comparing a large number of NiMh and NiCd cells. Although the IKEA box and cells are clearly marked Alkaline, with rechargeable chemistry on my mind, I found myself putting the IKEA Alkaline cells on my La Crosse charger to put them through a conditioning cycle or two...

Fortunately, the charger is smarter than I am and did nothing.  I must admit that it had me going for a minute or so. I was wondering why the voltage on the cells was close to 1.6 volts, then I noticed that they were Alkaline cells.

Tom


----------



## winny

You are welcome!

Don't worry, you're not ready for the old people's home (this weeks strangest translation) yet. Anyone can make a mistake.

Anyway, about the batteries. 
A Swedish photography magazine had done some testing and found that the IKEA cells provided the best value for money among the tested cells.
*A 10-pack of these costs just under $2 here and I will happily ship any amount of them to any CPFer. *

I got some strange questions from my friends when I packed them. "Why on earth are you shipping alkaline cells to the other side of the globe?" I tried to explain they it was the most natural thing in the world to do, wasting about 22 MJ of Jet A-1 fluel to deliver 30 kJ of electrical energy. That's about 0.2 % efficiency if we assume that no other transportation is needed, the plane (Boeing 737) uses 61 MW continuous for 8 hours and can carry 16 tonnes.


----------



## ss1

Panasonic Digital AAA battery is good might be better than Rayovac??? It's also cheap price. Gotta find some Riteaid battery now thanks


----------



## glire

SiverFox, any chance to add Panasonic Oxyride in this shoot out?
Panasonic say they run up to 3x their own alkaline (in a Kodak digital camera).
Source: http://www.panasonic-batteries.com/index.cfm?PageID=16360&News_ID=77&style=392


----------



## onthebeam

I have been using the Panasonic Oxyrides to get more brightness out of my Streamlight Jr. Luxeon. They make it noticeably brighter. I'm surprised more people here are not discussing them. Walgreens puts them on sale every now and then. . .


----------



## SilverFox

Hello Glire,

If you look at the AA results, you will see results for the Panasonic Power Edge, which are the oxyride cells.

Tom


----------



## glire

OK, thank you 
A suggestion: put somewhere the word Oxyride. This would allow the search engine to find this great thread.


----------



## SilverFox

Hello Glire,

Done.  

Tom


----------



## Schuey2002

What about Panasonic "long lasting for Digital electronics" alkalines? Are they any good? Anyone have any info on them?


----------



## ps56k

this has been great reading... 
and the bottom line is really the cost per cell (to get the device powered up) and then the cost per runtime (cost of running/replacement). 
ie - the Alkaline vs Lithium is the extreme comparison.
thanks for all the effort...


----------



## Exit32

This thread is a tremendous resource. Thanks for all your hard work, SilverFox!

Now, I have a question that's a little off the beaten path. I just purchased a Black & Decker "Alkaline" power screwdriver. It's a 6-volt tool that uses four (4) AA alkaline cells.

The package and instructions say to use AA alkaline batteries only, but after seeing how well AA lithium cells perform in Tom's tests, I bought dozen Energizer AA lithium batteries at Sam's Club to use in my new Black & Decker power screwdriver.

I suspect the screwdriver will draw several amps of current for short bursts of time as I'm using it to install or remove screws. Is it safe to use the lithium cells for this application? Any danger of overheating or explosion? Do you guys believe lithium chemistry is the best choice for this tool? (I use it seldomly, and it will be stored in a cool barn most of the time.)

I appreciate any comments and advice you guys can offer. Thanks!

BTW, I bought the alkaline version of the screwdriver because I'm tired of constantly charging and ruining the NiCd batteries that usually come with cheap power screwdrivers.


----------



## Lynx_Arc

I bet the *alkaline only* claim is too mainly discourage cheaper battery usage and it would work fine with nimh cells. If you find yourself using it often I would look into a set of 4 2500mah energizers and a charger (I prefer fast chargers 1hr or less). 
Drill motors of any type seem less suitable for alkaline usage IMO as the batteries deplete they slow down to unuseful speed/torque then you either toss them in an LED light or throw away a half used cell while nimh/nicad will run till they are nearly dead at near full speed.


----------



## SilverFox

Hello Exit32,

I don't think you would have any problems using Lithium batteries in your drill, however, to be sure you should check with Black and Decker.

You do have a 2 year warranty, so if you decide to try them, do it right away. If something goes wrong, you can get the full warranty replacement. Lithium batteries will allow the drill to operate at close to it full torque rating for the life of the battery. They are a bit more expensive than Alkaline batteries, but seem to be well suited for your use.

Tom


----------



## Mike abcd

NiMH would probably be a good choice. In a high drain application like that, they provide a lot more useful capacity than alkalines. They require an initial investment in the cells and charger but pay off quickly if you use them a lot.

The Engerizer 2500 mAH cells are really good. Watch out for cheap cells like Lenmar NoMem. None of the ones I got met rated capacity and some were a LOT less. They also had much higher self discharge rates than the Energizers and worked poorly in high drain use.

NiMH cells self discharge much quicker than alkalines so don't expect them to perform well months after charging or if stored above room temperature. You should also stop using them as soon as the screwdriver starts to slow down to avoid over discharging them. That can have a dramatic effect on capacity and the number of rechrge cycles.

Mike


----------



## Exit32

I appreciate all the replies and advice about using lithium AA batteries in my Black & Decker "Alkaline" power screwdriver. I don't see a downside either, but I will take Tom's advice and ask Black & Decker to be sure they're OK.

I've got lots of Energizer 2500-mAH NiMH cells here, and I like 'em a lot. I use my LaCrosse charger to keep them working at peak efficiency, and the NiMH batteries are terrific in flashlights, portable radios, handheld scanners, and photo-flash equipment.

The reason I don't think rechargeable NiMH cells are best for my screwdriver application is because I use it so seldomly, the NiMH cells would die from self-discharge between screwdriver sessions. What I want is a light-duty power tool that will work when I need it -- even if I haven't touched it for several years. Toss in the fact that the screwdriver is kept in a cool (40-degrees) barn, it would seem that AA lithiums are the best choice for this tool.


----------



## Mike abcd

If you rarely use it and don't want the hassle of swapping in fresh NiMH, Lithiums are probably worth the expense. That said, lower storage temps cut self dischage a LOT. Even NiMH cells have good charge retention at 40 degrees F and suffer little capacity loss when run at those temps.

You might also want to take a look at Sanyo Eneloop NiMH cells that were just introduced. They're quoting 90% charge retention after 6 months at room temp and 80% after a year.
http://www.sanyo.co.jp/koho/hypertext4-eng/0511/1101-2e.html

Mike


----------



## SilverFox

Update:

I have added the data from the CSV AA batteries that Onthebeam sent me - thanks John.

I have also added the graph of the IKEA cells to the comparison graph. I noticed that this graph is getting a bit cluttered, so I added the data for the AA cells in tabular form, sorted on WattHours.

Tom


----------



## ps56k

thanks for all the effort and time in putting together these tests and results for both the Alka and recharge batteries...

It's interesting to see the tabular results with respect to Watt Hrs.
I wonder how things might look when adding the relative cost into the equation. 
ie - is it more cost effective to run Lithiums vs Alka ?

Then again - in some cases, the Lithium or NiMh batteries might be too much voltage or mah for the device (flashlight, camera, etc) and fry the circuit...


----------



## Coop

Those Ikea AA alkalines are probably the best value for money you can get... Here in the netherlands, where everything is too expensive, these Ikea AA batteries retail for 2,50 euros for a pack of 10. Once in a while they are on sale for just 1,25 euros per pack of 10. The performance is pretty good too in everyday use.
When they are on sale, I usually buy them in bulk


----------



## Lightmeup

Tom, do you know anything about the Sears alkaline batteries? Someone told me that they were right up there with Duracells, but cheaper?


----------



## SilverFox

Hello Lightmeup,

I have never checked them out. I will see if my local Sears carries them.

Tom


----------



## europium

Here is confirmation on the performance of AA alkaline cells from the January 2006 issue of Consumer Reports:

*Battle of the batteries*


> Family and friends are assembled and portrait-ready, everyone says "cheese," and ... no photo. To spare you such scenes, we tested AA batteries that claim to excel in digital devices.
> *
> The combatants.* The *Panasonic Oxyride Extreme Power* battery claims to last "up to 50 percent longer than alkaline batteries." The secret is a new and repackaged form of oxynickel hydroxide that Panasonic says results in at least twice as many photos from a digital camera. The *Energizer e2* claims "longer lasting power for high-tech devices." And the *Duracell Ultra Digital *claims to be the "best Duracell alkaline for digital cameras." They cost about $4.40 to $5.20 per four-pack.
> *
> How they fared.* Our digital-camera test simulated subjecting batteries to a current draw that was high, low, then high again, as with flash picture-taking. The Panasonic lasted more than 50 percent longer than the others and produced about 16 photos for every 10 for the competition.
> 
> Our other test simulated powering a portable CD player for a few hours a day, which requires a steady, lower amount of energy. This time, the Panasonic battery quit early, providing an average of about 1 hour of use for every 1.3 hours from the Energizer and the Duracell.
> *
> The bottom line.* Consider Panasonic Oxyride AA batteries for a digital camera, but don't waste them on devices such as handheld music players or GameBoys. *The best value: rechargeable nickel-metal hydride batteries*,  though they won't give as many shots on one charge as the three we tested.


----------



## yawglenn

Exit32 said:


> This thread is a tremendous resource. Thanks for all your hard work, SilverFox!
> 
> Now, I have a question that's a little off the beaten path. I just purchased a Black & Decker "Alkaline" power screwdriver. It's a 6-volt tool that uses four (4) AA alkaline cells.
> 
> The package and instructions say to use AA alkaline batteries only, but after seeing how well AA lithium cells perform in Tom's tests, I bought dozen Energizer AA lithium batteries at Sam's Club to use in my new Black & Decker power screwdriver.



Exit32


I have one too and use it sporadically and thought of using Lithiums also since I happen to have an extra set sitting around.



So what happened when you contacted Black & Decker? Personally I’d be surprised if they authorized the use of Lithiums as they would not want any issues with regards to warrantee or liability. 



[font=&quot]I also noted in the instructions manual stating using only alkalines and I’m thinking it may have to do with them having lower peak current delivering ability over say NiMH’s or Lithium’s. This would act as a safe guard against damage or over heating.[/font]


----------



## TinderBox (UK)

anybody try philips AAA alkaline battery`s as they seem to be my best buy locally.

philips AAA at £4.99 for 24.

panasonic AAA at £6.99 for 24.

which should i buy.?

thankyou.

John.


----------



## HEY HEY ITS HENDO

TinderBox (UK) said:


> anybody try philips AAA alkaline battery`s as they seem to be my best buy locally.
> 
> philips AAA at £4.99 for 24.
> 
> panasonic AAA at £6.99 for 24.
> 
> which should i buy.?



Hey John why not use Ni-mh rechargeables ??
http://www.7dayshop.com/catalog/default.php?cPath=777_3&PHPSESSID=56f559ce9f708242b2adfec59da51a6a


----------



## TinderBox (UK)

I dont think rechargable AAA batterys are quite their yet, capacity wise.

plus remote controls and low drain devices are a waste of rechargable batterys at the moment.

regards.

John.


----------



## Nebula

My appologies if this has already been covered. I had to make a trip to my local IKEA yesterday and noticed that they are finally stocking AAA, AA, C & D alkys. The AA are $1.79 for a 10 pack. C & D sizes are $1.49 for a 2 Pack. I picked up several to try out. Kirk


----------



## ps56k

This has been a great effort and learning thread.
One thing I was always curious about was cost...
Was it better to run with the longer life lithiums or the regular cells ?
Well - today I just ran over to Walgreens,
and wrote down the prices of the batteries they had.
Creating a little spreadsheet was enlightening...
Some values are missing - no test results - or no costs...
----
ok - how do I format a table using spaces ??
----
Batteries Time Time Battery Per Min Per Min
.5amp	1.0amp	Cost	.5amp	1.0amp
Duracell Copper AAA	57	15	$0.86	$0.015	$0.06
Duracell Ultra AAA $1.12 
Energizer MAX AAA 54	14 
Energizer Lith AAA 163 $2.50	$0.015 
Energizer e2T AAA $1.45 

Duracell Copper AA 194	52	$0.66	$0.003	$0.01
Duracell Ultra AA 236	73	$1.12	$0.005	$0.02
Energizer MAX AA 154	54
Energizer Lith AA 418 184	$2.50	$0.006	$0.01
Energizer e2T AA 163	60	$1.44	$0.009	$0.02


----------



## Bimmerboy

Awesome thread! Who da' thunk it that Rite Aid brand would outperform the big boys in such a test? 

Tom, do you happen to retest the RA's every so often to see if they still hold up like that? I was at Rite Aid yesterday for some E2's and 9V's (and to stock up on chocolate), and was tempted to grab some of the store brand AA and AAA as well. I didn't though, because the prices really weren't that great, and I remembered that these tests were done a while ago now.

In fact, I wound up getting 4 Duracell 9V's on sale for $11 (2 pack X 2), as opposed to a buck or two more for the RA's. But, I'm still curious nonethless...

Do the Rite Aid batteries (AA and AAA) still hold up to the previous performance? If so, I'll buy 'em. Care to do a current (no pun intended) run on them?

... dare dare.  Like the old Duracell commercials with Martin Sheen where he has the battery on his shoulder... "_I dare you to knock these off_" *makes mean face*

Edit: Damned if I didn't just date myself.


----------



## SilverFox

Hello Bimmerboy,

Yes, I do recheck batches from time to time. When I find major differences, I post the results.

The Rite Aid batteries have remained consistent.

Tom


----------



## SilverFox

Update:

I added the results from some Nuon Powerizer Lithium Iron AA cells that GCBStokes sent me. 

Once you get past the big voltage dip at the beginning, they seem to do pretty good. The Energizer L91 cells win in Watt Hours, but cost more.

Tom


----------



## SilverFox

Update:

Once upon a time... long ago...

Archangel sent me some Kirkland AA cells to do some follow up testing with. I was cleaning up my testing files and ran across the results from these tests. I finally got around to posting them.

The seem to have dropped off at the 0.5 amp test, but are pretty close at the 1.0 amp test. The original test was done with 2011 cells, and these were dated 2013.

Thanks Mike.

Tom


----------



## abvidledUK

Perhaps a new thread with 2007 info highlighted ?


----------



## hank

ps56k -- don't know if there's any way to do tabs, I think the forum software is far too helpful about throwing away repeating chars, can't tell what you meant to be in what columns.

Can you try maybe separating with ### or ____ or something that might survive the software reformatting?


----------



## SilverFox

A quick way to get an idea of where a cell ranks is to look at the tables. They are sorted by Watt Hours and give a very compact view of how the cell is holding up in relation to the others.

Tom


----------



## GarageBoy

BTW: the Ikeas are made by Varta and are avail in the US


----------



## hank

Anybody clever with Javascript? Given the power/time measurements, a little calculator to plug in the current retail price of various tested batteries and tell us the best bargain would be a treat.


----------



## Calina

hank said:


> Anybody clever with Javascript? Given the power/time measurements, a little calculator to plug in the current retail price of various tested batteries and tell us the best bargain would be a treat.


 
Look at post #158 on this thread.


----------



## woodrow

Silverfox, Thanks for all of your hard work. I have not looked at this thread for months and months, but it is still incredibly timely and relavant. I am still incredibly impressed by AA lithiums. Both in cameras and my gps which EATS alkalines especially with the backlight on, but lithiums will last 8 hours. Also in the Nebraska winter, lithiums were the only thing I could use if the gps stayed in the glovebox on a -5 morning.

Thanks for the graphs that help me mentally justify spending all the extra money for them.


----------



## filibuster

Silverfox, can we compare the test and numbers done against the alkaline and lithium batteries here directly with the tests you've done for NiMH and CR123A batteries? I'm wondering if all things are equal in as far as the tests being performed? Were the tests the same across all the various cell types to a point that we can compare the results across them all?

I'm particularly impressed with the AA Energizer Lithium cell compared to the best CR123A Sanyo cell. Am I missing something or does the AA Energizer lithium really perform twice as better as the best 123a (3.484 Ah compared to the Sanyo's CR123a 1.720 Ah) at 0.5 amps? And is it really almost a third better than the best NiMH Sanyo 2700 which at .5 amps comes in at 2.534 Ah?


----------



## MorePower

filibuster said:


> I'm particularly impressed with the AA Energizer Lithium cell compared to the best CR123A Sanyo cell. Am I missing something or does the AA Energizer lithium really perform twice as better as the best 123a (3.484 Ah compared to the Sanyo's CR123a 1.720 Ah) at 0.5 amps? And is it really almost a third better than the best NiMH Sanyo 2700 which at .5 amps comes in at 2.534 Ah?



but amp-hours doesn't tell the whole story. you need to look at power, rather than just current over time. 123A cells discharge at close to double the voltage of the Energizer lithium AA cells, which kind of makes the whole thing a wash.


----------



## TorchBoy

MorePower said:


> but amp-hours doesn't tell the whole story. you need to look at power, rather than just current over time. 123A cells discharge at close to double the voltage of the Energizer lithium AA cells, which kind of makes the whole thing a wash.


Energy, in Wh (power over time).


----------



## MorePower

TorchBoy said:


> Energy, in Wh (power over time).



right you are. I shouldn't post when I should be sleeping.


----------



## SilverFox

Hello Filibuster,

Yes. You can do a direct comparison. The test methods and conditions were the same in each case.

Your best comparison, as has been mentioned, is Watt Hours.

Tom


----------



## VegasF6

SilverFox said:


> Update:
> 
> I added the results from some Nuon Powerizer Lithium Iron AA cells that GCBStokes sent me.
> 
> Once you get past the big voltage dip at the beginning, they seem to do pretty good. The Energizer L91 cells win in Watt Hours, but cost more.
> 
> Tom


 
Tom, what am I reading wrong here?
I see 3.221 watt hours at 1 amp on the Nuon, and only 1.050 watt hours at 1 amp on the Energizer L92?

Any clue how either of these might hold up at a 2 amp load vs say the eneloop?


----------



## MorePower

VegasF6 said:


> Tom, what am I reading wrong here?
> I see 3.221 watt hours at 1 amp on the Nuon, and only 1.050 watt hours at 1 amp on the Energizer L92?
> 
> Any clue how either of these might hold up at a 2 amp load vs say the eneloop?



It looks like you pulled the 1.050 watt-hr number for Energizer e2, which is an alkaline cell, rather than for the Energizer *L91*, which is the lithium AA cell.

Energizer L91 came in at 3.738 W-hr for 1.0 amp discharge rate.


----------



## SilverFox

Hello Vegas,

I don't have any more of the Nuon cells, so I can't test them at 2 amps.

The Energizer L92 should hold a little higher voltage than the Eneloop cell, and it should last a little longer. However, it is not rechargeable. The Nuon and Eneloop cells will most likely end up at roughly the same voltage, and the Nuon should last a little longer. Once again the Nuon cell is not rechargeable.

Tom


----------



## VegasF6

Hey Tom, thanks for that, I appreciate. Man, if the Nuon doesn't hold it's voltage any higher than the eneloop, then I don't suppose there is much point. I was hoping to source a AA that could handle a Q5 at high current, and I figure I will need at least 2-3 amps from a 1.2V cell. Looks like I will have to settle on a lower current level, or a 14500. I was really hoping to be able to keep voltage at 1.6 or better at 2 amps (give or take) for 15-20 minutes 
Chris


----------



## batteryboy

We tested all the batteries in battery powered fans and battery operated tv and found the best longest lansting batteries for the money were the Rayovac D batteries that are offered battery in bulk at wholese prices at Batterysavers. We also tryted them on the smaller battery operated fans and Batterysavers Rayovac batteries also came out on top.

*[advertising link removed - DM51]*


----------



## Closet_Flashaholic

batteryboy said:


> We tested all the batteries in battery powered fans and battery operated tv and found the best longest lansting batteries for the money were the Rayovac D batteries that are offered battery in bulk at wholese prices at XXX. We also tryted them on the smaller battery operated fans and Rayovac batteries also came out on top.



:welcome:
Welcome to the forums batteryboy. As you can see this forum and this thread present lots of data for the reader to review and make their own decisions. I am glad to see that you also have done some testing. However, if you don't want your post to be viewed as little more than advertising, I would suggest that you start a new thread and post your test data results to back up those claims. In addition, it might be good to describe the testing methodologies and the equipment used so that readers can understand the results. Just a suggestion. Normally I would not be as harsh for a 1st post response, however when someone's 1st post includes links to a commercial site I have to suspect ulterior motives. If I am wrong, please forgive me.


----------



## Marantz

Hi all,

Newbie here - so Hi all!

This thread is clearly fantastic. 

I was wondering if there has been a more recent test that I can reference anywhere. I'm using AA Alkaline batteries occasionally for my flashlight but more for my bread trimmer.

The only reason I ask is that this work was started in 2004 - and thought there might be a possibility, that some of the formulas used in the these batteries, may have been modified/updated (improved / cost-saving changes) etc. in thes years since.

Many thanks,

Marantz!


----------



## SilverFox

Hello Marantz,

Welcome to CPF.

I have occasionally checked newer cells and they come in close to what was found in the official testing. There isn't a lot of interest in alkaline cells because their performance is not all that good in higher power applications. We seem to try to run things as hard as we can and find the nickel and lithium chemistries give better performance.

If I find a substantial difference, I will update the information, but I am not doing a lot of alkaline testing at this time.

Tom


----------



## technovore

Hi Tom. I'm a new member, and am really pleased to have discovered this thread. I couldn't find the following request in any of the currrent posts: Do you have the test data available in table, spreadsheet or even plain text format? I'd really like to be able to access it when I can't get to the forum. Thanks!


----------



## SilverFox

Hello Technovore,

Welcome to CPF.

Feel free to copy the graphs and use them for reference. 

The raw data is not available for distribution.

Tom


----------



## gradio

New here to & this shoot out is great.
Although I mainly use NiMh, I also been using Kirkland AA's for some years for things like remote's, clock's, weather station etc. Wondered at times how they were but never looked into it. And always have plenty in a pack for primary when camping etc. where I won't be re-charging the NiMh batteries. I think its something like 40-pack Kirkland's I been getting.


----------



## uk_caver

Though using different test criteria, it might be worth looking at:
http://www.batteryshowdown.com/index.html
where they tested various UK-available cells.
I guess it's worth bearing in mind that particularly with store-branded cells, the actual cells used may vary from place to place and over time - UK Kirkland cells


----------



## IonicBond

Thought I'd try some of the new Duracell Coppertop "Duralock" Alkalines in a discharge test on a Maha C9000. Cells were made in 2012, and have a silver wedding-band of silver between the copper and black body.

Discharger: Maha C9000
Current: 0.5A
Ending Voltage: 0.9V
Ambient Temp: 95F

Slot1: 1747 mah
Slot2: 1798 mah
Slot3: 1836 mah
Slot4: 1814 mah

I don't have the patience to try these again in the claimed 10-year lifespan. Back to nimh for me, but this was an interesting test. After a 1 hour rest, I was able to get about 80-110 mah when discharged again at the 100ma rate.


----------



## espresso

I found Duracell alkalines to have overall mediocre performance. They are more expensive than other alkalines in my country and yet their performance is nothing special. I've always preferred German "Varta" to Duracell because it always seemed to last longer in practice. 
And then I ran into this test Varta vs Duracell. Both manufacturers have 3 competitors in different price/current drain segment and they are compared here directly: 
Duracell Simply vs Varta Longlife
Duracell Plus Power vs Varta High Energy
Duracell Ultra Power vs Varta Max Tech

It's interesting to see that in AA test, Duracell looses by a third. Now, this is a test ordered by Varta and obviously comes from Varta's site, but I can definitely confirm from my experience that Duracell performance is not that great as the commercials say.

http://www.varta-consumer.com/~/med...s/en-GB/Varta_UK-Primary_battery_testing.ashx


----------



## Ookami

I do realize this testing is nearing ten years old, but it's positively fantastic. It's nice to see that thew times I've bought disposables I made good choices.


----------



## TinderBox (UK)

I am looking for some AAAA alkaline`s for my touchpad pen, but the best before dates are only 2014 so buying spare battery seems a bad idea, i have seen AA with best before 2019 what gives?

I need a brand that give a leakage replacement warranty if they leak before the best before date.

Is it because AAAA is not a commonly used battery.

John.


----------



## dlong

Are the graphs still available or is something filtering them out on my side? As I can not see any pictures in the first post.


----------



## Calina

It's probably on your side since I can see them just fine.


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## Quatermass

Interesting thread. As a electronic engineer myself I took upon myself to review a large pile of AAA alkaline (and a few lithium) on sale in the UK. 

Mainly to save myself the expense. Plus I figured out that AA, C & D would likely be scaled up versions of the AAA.
I was only really interested in a comparison of performance. 

I took into consideration that alkalines don't have a set Amperes per hour. It varies enormously depending on load. So simply gave them all the same fixed load for 15 minutes and then rested them for 15 mins as alkalines do have a small recovery capacity. 

I used a USB development board and a USB multimeter to collect the data.

Take a look and let me know what you guys think? :thumbsup:


_*link removed by Greta - VERY spammish._


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## nml

I am new to all of this but need to do similar tests on D batteries for a project I am working on. Would you be able to explain the set up that was used? I have a DC power supply that I would like to know how to use for forced discharge tests. 

Thanks!


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## SilverFox

Hello Nml,

Welcome to CPF.

I use the West Mountain Radio CBA for discharge testing. You can check it out on their website.

Your DC power supply could be used for charging, but it will not work to discharge and check capacity.

Tom


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## HKJ

nml said:


> I am new to all of this but need to do similar tests on D batteries for a project I am working on. Would you be able to explain the set up that was used? I have a DC power supply that I would like to know how to use for forced discharge tests.
> 
> Thanks!



The cheapest way is a hobby charger with computer connection.
Next step up is the CBA as Silverfox uses.
A electronic load with computer connection is even better, especially at higher currents where it can use 4 terminal measurements.


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## Gregory37

I collect used and old batteries. Maybe someone from California has? All types of batteries are accepted. I will be grateful


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## sbslider

Lots of good information on this thread for those using alkaline batteries in very high current applications. I don't think using alkalines in these application is very wise for all the reasons already posted.

However, alkalines do have their place, and that place is in lower current applications. So I wonder why no one does testing at 0.1A, 0.05A, 0.02A, etc. I suspect because it takes too long.


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## HKJ

sbslider said:


> However, alkalines do have their place, and that place is in lower current applications. So I wonder why no one does testing at 0.1A, 0.05A, 0.02A, etc. I suspect because it takes too long.



You are looking at the wrong place. I always test at 0.1A and also add 0.01A curves to some of my alkaline tests.

You can find both Alkaline and NiMH tests here: http://lygte-info.dk/review/batteries2012/CommonAAcomparator.php


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## sbslider

HKJ said:


> You are looking at the wrong place. I always test at 0.1A and also add 0.01A curves to some of my alkaline tests.
> 
> You can find both Alkaline and NiMH tests here: http://lygte-info.dk/review/batteries2012/CommonAAcomparator.php



WOW!! Great collection of data, thanks for the link.


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## BloodLust

Now, which ones leaks the least?
With the brands touting Duralock, Power Lock, No Leak Guarantees, etc.. Which ones actually work?

I just recently had a Duracell Duralock leak in a 1x AA light. Short daily use light on my bedside table so it's not a stagnant light.


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## sll

Although this thread has been going for over 13 years, I see a recent post and thought I would ask a question back to the original subject. I'm needing to buy some alkaline D cells for 4 Streamlight Siege's and miscellaneous fans and 2 cell incandescents for a week and half camping trip. I have searched here and Google and have yet to find anything recently definitive. Price wise, I haven't looked much on-line as of yet, but I noticed this morning the local Wally-World has 8 pack Coppertops and Energizers for $12 and 8 pack of the Rayovacs for $10. In addition to the camping trip I would like to keep on-hand sufficient supply for at least 2 of the Sieges's as emergency lighting for power failures, after all it is that time of year. 

Thinking on what I've asked, it looks like I have 2 different applications.
[1] For the camping trip I'm thinking the Rayovacs but are the others $0.25/batt better, or are there others to consider? 
[2] For the emergency use which would you suggest for longevity? Most seem to provide 10 yr life. I had a new pack of the Rayovacs a couple years ago that had a leaker after year.

Thanks for comments and suggestion.


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## xxo

sll said:


> Although this thread has been going for over 13 years, I see a recent post and thought I would ask a question back to the original subject. I'm needing to buy some alkaline D cells for 4 Streamlight Siege's and miscellaneous fans and 2 cell incandescents for a week and half camping trip. I have searched here and Google and have yet to find anything recently definitive. Price wise, I haven't looked much on-line as of yet, but I noticed this morning the local Wally-World has 8 pack Coppertops and Energizers for $12 and 8 pack of the Rayovacs for $10. In addition to the camping trip I would like to keep on-hand sufficient supply for at least 2 of the Sieges's as emergency lighting for power failures, after all it is that time of year.
> 
> Thinking on what I've asked, it looks like I have 2 different applications.
> [1] For the camping trip I'm thinking the Rayovacs but are the others $0.25/batt better, or are there others to consider?
> [2] For the emergency use which would you suggest for longevity? Most seem to provide 10 yr life. I had a new pack of the Rayovacs a couple years ago that had a leaker after year.
> 
> Thanks for comments and suggestion.




With D cell alkalines, I usually stick with the big 3 (Duracell, enegrizer or rayovac), because they all claim to replace items destroyed by leaking alkalkines.....I still don't store alkalines in anything long term because eventually they all will leak. I usually get whatever I can find for the lowest price (usually rayovac or energizer) and save them for emergencies or camping trips. Most of the time I use AA Eneloops in 3 AA to D cell parallel adapters.


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## sll

Thanks for the quick reply. I keep very few batteries in the device, especially the alkalines. Typically I leave them in their original plastic shipping package and use then when needed. I like your feedback. Looks like for what I need I'll go with the less expensive Rayovacs. I was hoping to see an update of the batteries' performance but it probably isn't that much different between the big 3 you mentioned.

Thanks again


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## sbslider

Thought this would be an appropriate place to post the data I have been taken. I have been using a Kirkland AAA battery with a best used by date or Mar 2003 in a Thrunite Archer 1A V3 running on firefly mode for 18.3 days. Roughly twice daily I have removed the tail cap to measure the battery open circuit voltage and tailcap current. Based on these measurements I have calculated that the battery had delivered just over 3000 mA-hrs to the light. The light did not turn back on when I installed it today, presumably the voltage is below the cut-off now that it has dipped below 0.9V. Up until yesterday the battery was sufficient to keep the light in regulation. Actually, I used it for my middle of the light venture through the house and it appeared to still be putting out the same light intensity. 

If the battery was labeled with a 5 year shelf life this one is 19 years old. 3000mA hr delivered, albeit at currents between 5 and 10mA. Alkaline batteries definitely have their place. I have one more of these 19 year old batteries to test sometime in the future, or perhaps age a bit more.


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## sll

I assume it didn't leak? That's nearly as amazing. Any idea who makes Kirkland? I saw something one time maybe Duracell?


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## TinderBox (UK)

If 2xAA Alkaline battery are supposed to last 45hrs in a flashlight. How long will 2xAA 2300mah NiMh battery last, Is there any way to estimate this without measuring the current drawn.

Thanks

John.


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## sbslider

sll said:


> I assume it didn't leak? That's nearly as amazing. Any idea who makes Kirkland? I saw something one time maybe Duracell?


no leaking. I don't know who makes Kirkland batteries,or who did that long ago. I may try to strip the label when I get home later today. It does say "Distributed by CWC, PO Box 34535, Seatlle WA 98124-1535, 1-800-774-2675 U.S. Made in USA. A short web search makes me believe CWC stands for Costco Wholesale Corporation. There is a number inprinted on it, best I can tell it reads 3D 20310


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## sbslider

TinderBox (UK) said:


> If 2xAA Alkaline battery are supposed to last 45hrs in a flashlight. How long will 2xAA 2300mah NiMh battery last, Is there any way to estimate this without measuring the current drawn.
> 
> Thanks
> 
> John.


I think alkaline batteries are typically 3000mAhr, so you should be able to scale the NiMh batteries by multiplying 45*2300/3000, or roughly 33 hrs if I did the math right in my head.


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## sbslider

Here is a picture of the light on in firefly mode. The battery has been off for a couple days, so it has recovered a bit.






It looks like it recovered to above 1V, probably could get a few more hours on firefly with this battery






A picture showing the expiration date


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## Lynx_Arc

TinderBox (UK) said:


> If 2xAA Alkaline battery are supposed to last 45hrs in a flashlight. How long will 2xAA 2300mah NiMh battery last, Is there any way to estimate this without measuring the current drawn.
> 
> Thanks
> 
> John.


Most likely it will run considerably less time at a higher output as often lights using a boost circuit aren't regulated and alkalines will slowly drop in voltage throttling the power use while nimh tend to hold the voltage more stably. 
You may only get about 30 hours from nimh.


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## radellaf

So, (maybe) the oxyhydroxide alkaline has made a return with the new-ish Duracell Optimums? All the claims are in mWh "above 1.3V". I'm considering getting some to test. I don't have a WM CBA or UBA5, but the MC3000 will do mWh as well as mAh with configurable cutoff voltage, and if you bother to hook up the USB, data logging to a PC. It will not do constant power or constant resistance loads. The former would be useful for simulating something with a SMPS that would draw less current when the batteries were new. UBA has that, dunno about the CBA.
Anyway, what interests me is whether the resurrected PowerPix have managed to fit more mAh/mWh at 500mA with a 0.8V cutoff than the same chemistry back when the Panasonic Power Edge were tried. Or, it's the same old tech off their shelves, re-marketed for motorized toys and electronic door locks, now that AA powered digital cameras aren't around any more. Supposedly some IR remote controls don't work (well) on NiMH either.


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