# Sanyo Eneloop vs. Ansmann maxE



## emailanjan (Sep 8, 2007)

Hello,
which one should i take - and why?
The Eneloops are the original ones, while the maxE have a higher capacity and recharge in 15 minutes...
Is there another pair of good Low Self Discharges out there?
Ansmann maxE
http://cgi.ebay.de/Ansmann-maxE-Spe...ryZ85481QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
Sanyo Eneloop
http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=250160710437&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT&ih=015

thx for your help

greetings from Bremen/Germany
emailanjan


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## NiOOH (Sep 8, 2007)

Hi emailanjan and welcome to CPF.

Although I haven't used these Ansmann cells, I would take the Eneloops. Currently I use 12 AA Eneloops. They have been in moderately heavy use since december last year and undergone no less that 60 charge-discharge cycles each. I just finished anlyzing them and they still test like new. Very good voltage under load and overall capacity performance. I wouldn't worry about the difference in nameplate capacity, i.e that Ansmanns are rated at 2100 mAh vs 2000 for Sanyos. It is the real life capacity that counts. Sanyo is known to be conservative when rating their cells and real life tests confirm that. Most of my Eneloop cells when discharged at 400 mA actually give me over 2000 mAh discharge capacity.


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## maxilux (Sep 8, 2007)

Welcome at cpf, emailanjan

maxilux


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## oldvultureface (Sep 8, 2007)

emailanjan said:


> and recharge in 15 minutes...


Eneloops will recharge in the Energizer 15 minute charger. Also, the batteries bundled with the charger are excellent.


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## Hans (Sep 9, 2007)

emailanjan said:


> which one should i take - and why?



The Eneloops. Ansmann cells appear to come from a variety of manufacturers, and you never know what you'll get. I had some pretty good sets in the past, and some that were pretty awful. The Eneloops are of a much more reliable quality, I don't have a single bad cell among the 40 or so I've got.

Hans


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## Flo (Sep 10, 2007)

IIRC Ansmann just labels Sanyo cells. So buy what you get for less.


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## Bones (Sep 10, 2007)

Flo said:


> IIRC Ansmann just labels Sanyo cells. So buy what you get for less.



I wonder then, why Sanyo states the capacity of the Eneloop is only 2000mAh, whereas Ansmann states the maxE has 2100 mAh.

If it is re-labelled, it seems more likely to be a re-labelled Uniross Hybrio, which also claims a capacity of 2100 mAh (on the upper right corner of the package backer).

If it is the Hybrio though, Ansmann managed to up the cyle life during the re-labelling process, claiming 1000 for the maxE compared to Uniross' claim of 500 for the Hybrio.

The Ansmann site is also decidedly coy with facts that Sanyo makes readily available, ie: actual charge remaining after 6 months and one year.

Sanyo claims 90% after six months and 85% after one year for the Eneloop; Uniross claims 80% and 70% respectively for the Hybrio.

With a higher capacity than the Eneloop, twice the cyle life of the Hybrio, and no indication of the self-discharge rate, the Ansman could be the best of the bunch.

However, I can't seem the quell the suspicion it's a re-labelled Hybrio or Hybrio clone being re-sold by a less ethical company.

Until more information becomes available on the Ansmann maxE, I would go with the majority and get the Eneloops.

If you do decide to get the Ansmann, it would be appreciated if you would share you experiences.


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## jirik_cz (Sep 10, 2007)

AFAIK there are only two manufacturers which produce LSD cells - Sanyo and Yuasa. So those various LSD cells are just rebranded OEM cells from these two manufacturers. :naughty:


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## Curious_character (Sep 11, 2007)

Do you really believe that manufacturers are truthful in stating battery capacity? If so, you're the rightful prey of the creative marketing departments. You should run battery capacity claims through the same skeptical filter as "10 watt" and "240 lumen" flashlights. Or, for that matter, auto manufacturers' gas mileage claims.

That said, the Eneloops are unusual in that they actually do deliver very nearly the claimed capacity.

c_c


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## emailanjan (Sep 11, 2007)

Hi,

Thanks for your good Replys. After Reading your Opinions (and some other Info here in the Forum) I choose to go for the Sanyo Eneloops. I bought 5 (AA) of them together with a good charger LaCross BC 900 (Relabeled to AccuPower *whatever*). That Bunch costs me 42€ without shipping costs. Available at Amazon 
http://www.amazon.de/dp/B000NPNGH6/

That Charger should do a lot of good things like refresh my old Akkus, test the capacity....and some more. I think thats money-worth.

Greetings from Germany

Jan


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## Gazoo (Sep 13, 2007)

Curious_character said:


> That said, the Eneloops are unusual in that they actually do deliver very nearly the claimed capacity.
> 
> c_c



Every single one of mine, AA, and AAA, deliver more then their stated capacity.


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## Curious_character (Sep 13, 2007)

Gazoo said:


> Every single one of mine, AA, and AAA, deliver more then their stated capacity.


That's a testament to your charger. What kind is it?

Here's an Eneloop AA charged with a Maha MH-C9000 and discharged at a constant 100 mA rate:







As you can see, this one did just about exactly 1800 mAh. The ability of chargers to fully charge cells varies a great deal.

c_c


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## NiOOH (Sep 14, 2007)

Curious character.

What settings did you use to charge the cell graphed above? Did you wait for the two hours top-off charge to be completed? My 1 year old Eneloop cells when charged at 1 Amp+ 2 hours top-off, measure 1850-1900 mAh upon discharging at 400 mA. In your case, I'd imagine that you should get more than that out of these cells


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## Curious_character (Sep 14, 2007)

NiOOH said:


> Curious character.
> 
> What settings did you use to charge the cell graphed above? Did you wait for the two hours top-off charge to be completed? My 1 year old Eneloop cells when charged at 1 Amp+ 2 hours top-off, measure 1850-1900 mAh upon discharging at 400 mA. In your case, I'd imagine that you should get more than that out of these cells


I charged it at 1000 mA, but now that you mention it, I am pretty careless about waiting for the top-off charge. (Wouldn't it be nice if the nifty LCD which now says "Done" at the end of the primary charge, would say "Really Done" when the top-off charge is finished?) I have one of the first MH-C9000s, and think the topoff is about one hour at 200 mA or so, so that would potentially take care of most of the difference. I know that several Eneloops I measured some time ago after one cycle were close to 2 Ah, but I might not have promptly removed them from the charger. I see I got 1830 mAh at 500 mA in another test, but again I might not have waited for the top-off. When I get a chance I'll run a couple more after giving them plenty of time to top off.

c_c


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## Codeman (Sep 14, 2007)

An indicator of when the C9000 goes from top-off to maintenance charge would be nice. But... I suspect that Maha omitted it by design. Doing full top-offs on a regular basis reduce cycle life some. For most users, pulling the cells when the cell showns done gives reasonably well-charged (95% or so) cells without reducing cycle life. If you want to do regular top-offs, most of the more advanced chargers (Triton, Schulze, etc) do detect top-off completion and notify the user, but they have more advanced circuitry that allows them to do that.

With the C9000, the best way to test cell capacity is to use the Break-In Mode since it follows the IEC standard for determining battery capacity. While doing discharge tests at other conditions may provide a better measure for how long cells will last in a given application, the IEC standard is the better choice if you want a meaningful check of the manufacturer's claimed capacity. Short of using the Break-In Mode, doing a 0.2C discharge (400mA for the 2000mAh AA Eneloops) after a full top-off is the second best way.

CC - I bet that, if you do a discharge at 400mA instead of 500mA, you'll see slightly higher readings.

Hope that helps!

Back OT. Jan, I believe you'll be happy with the Eneloops. :thumbsup:


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## Curious_character (Sep 14, 2007)

Codeman said:


> An indicator of when the C9000 goes from top-off to maintenance charge would be nice. But... I suspect that Maha omitted it by design. Doing full top-offs on a regular basis reduce cycle life some. For most users, pulling the cells when the cell showns done gives reasonably well-charged (95% or so) cells without reducing cycle life. If you want to do regular top-offs, most of the more advanced chargers (Triton, Schulze, etc) do detect top-off completion and notify the user, but they have more advanced circuitry that allows them to do that.
> 
> With the C9000, the best way to test cell capacity is to use the Break-In Mode since it follows the IEC standard for determining battery capacity. While doing discharge tests at other conditions may provide a better measure for how long cells will last in a given application, the IEC standard is the better choice if you want a meaningful check of the manufacturer's claimed capacity. Short of using the Break-In Mode, doing a 0.2C discharge (400mA for the 2000mAh AA Eneloops) after a full top-off is the second best way.


While the MH-C9000 is a handy way for people to get a general idea of battery capacity, I don't use it for that purpose. In my early version, the discharge periodically stops and the cell voltage is measured when the discharge current is zero, in order to determine the end point. I have some Energizer cells which have a high internal resistance, and they reach the normal end point voltage considerably sooner with a constant current discharge than they do with the interrupted Maha test. In another thread I learned that newer ones measure the voltage under load -- but that the discharge is a higher value pulsed current. So this has the potential of making cells look worse than a constant current test because the cell voltage is measured at a current higher than the specified discharge current. I use a constant current load with a comparator for discharge termination. An old electric clock is turned off when the end point voltage is reached, showing the discharge time. More recently, I've been using an A/D converter and computer to record the voltage, and the capacity can be obtained directly from the data file.



> CC - I bet that, if you do a discharge at 400mA instead of 500mA, you'll see slightly higher readings.


Sure, although in my experience the difference isn't much. The graph I posted, though, was for 100 mA, where the capacity should be even a little greater than specified.

I've got a couple of cells doing a discharge/charge cycle now. I'll give them plenty of time to top up, and run a discharge at 400 or 500 mA.

c_c


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## emailanjan (Sep 14, 2007)

Another Question.
How would you rate my new charger? Is he able to fill up the whole capacity?
Your comments are very useful. Please give me a statement.

Jan


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## Curious_character (Sep 14, 2007)

Jan,

Sorry, I don't have one of those chargers.

If it has the capability to measure capacity by discharging at a constant rate, what you can do is charge a cell with it and then use the charger to measure the capacity. Then recharge the cell at 0.1C (for example, 200 mA for a 2000 mAh cell) for 16 hours and measure the capacity again. The 16 hour 0.1C charge should fully charge the cell, so the second discharge reading should indicate the cell's true capacity. Compare it to the first reading to see how well your charger compares.

c_c


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## NiOOH (Sep 15, 2007)

Codeman said:


> Doing full top-offs on a regular basis reduce cycle life some. For most users, pulling the cells when the cell showns done gives reasonably well-charged (95% or so) cells without reducing cycle life.


 
I doubt a top-off as done on the c9000 (2 hours @ 100 mA) will reduce cycle life considerably, at least with AA NiMH cells. Low capacity, AAA cells may be a different story though. For a 2 Ah cell charged to 95%, additional charging at c/20 for 2 hours may not even bring it to full capacity. Mind that at such low curents and close to full charge, the charging efficiency is low, not much more than 50%. Now, if we have a 700 mAh AAA cell charged to the same level, additional charging at 0.14C for two hours may overcharge it to a point that you may see some deterioration over time. I am not afraid to leave my AA cells to top-off, but pull my AAA cells about an hour after done. AFAIK the c9000 the top-off current and duration are the same for AA and AAA cells. IMO it would have been nicer to make them different for AA and AAA. 1 hour @ 200 mA for AA and 100 mA for AAA would have been better.


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## Codeman (Sep 15, 2007)

I can't recall seeing any specfics numbers as to how much cycle life is reduced, just that it is. According to BatteryUniversity, NiMH aren't very tolerant of overcharge, which is where the damage comes from. I suspect, though, that the overriding factor in how much damage is done is less about the current being delivered and more about how long it's allowed to happen.


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## Power Me Up (Sep 15, 2007)

Codeman said:


> I can't recall seeing any specfics numbers as to how much cycle life is reduced, just that it is. According to BatteryUniversity, NiMH aren't very tolerant of overcharge, which is where the damage comes from. I suspect, though, that the overriding factor in how much damage is done is less about the current being delivered and more about how long it's allowed to happen.



I believe that heat is major factor that can increase the degredation in performance of NiMH cells. Overcharging done at a higher rate will cause the cell to heat up a lot more than at a lower rate. I.e. overcharging for 10 hours at 100 mA probably wouldn't do as much damage as 1 hour at 1 A - even though the overcharge amount in mAh is still the same.


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## Codeman (Sep 15, 2007)

There's no doubt that heat is a major factor if temps reach or exceed 140°F, but long trickle charging also damages NiMH by crystal formation. The info on this is readily available at Battery University.


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## NiOOH (Sep 15, 2007)

Codeman said:


> There's no doubt that heat is a major factor if temps reach or exceed 140°F, but long trickle charging also damages NiMH by crystal formation. The info on this is readily available at Battery University.


 
While it's true that prolonged trickle charging can lead to voltage depression, I don't see how a two hour top-off charge can affect cycle life, moreover the cell is not even overcharged. To me, terminating the quick charge conservatively and applying a low current top-off charge is much better than even brief overcharging at 0.5-1C. Fortunately the revised c9000 does exactly this.


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## Ian2381 (Apr 11, 2010)

Has anyone done a comparison test between this two batteries?
I would be happy to know the results.:wave:


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## 357mag1 (Apr 11, 2010)

I've tried the Ansmann and they do not hold their voltage as well under load. The higher the current draw the more they sag. I presently have 4 setting on a shelf and they have been there since January 23 this year. All 4 are setting right at 1.29 volts, 4 Eneloops setting with them are all at 1.35volts. Based on those facts the Eneloops are the way to go since they cost about the same. If I could get them for half the price I would be happy with the Ansmann.

Just so you know I also have 8 Rayovac 4.0s and 4 Imedion setting with these batteries.
Rayovac 4.0s are between 1.315 and 1.32 volts.
Imedions are all right at 1.315 volts.

I used to think people were making a big deal about Eneloops but they have proven themselves to me many times over. I keep testing and looking for something better though.


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