# Petzl NAO - high-tech headlamp review.



## Szemhazai

NAO is the latest headlamp from Petzl - which brings together all the technological innovations of the past few years. Cree XP-G LED’s as a light source, 18650 Li-Ion cell as a power source, programming modes and charging via USB. Anything else? New Zephyr carrying system and "Reactive" - the system that automatically adjusts the light to your needs...





*Impressions
*
Nice, relatively light (instead of 187 catalog it weighs 190g, but it's a small difference) it appears to be a lamp refined in every detail. No edges except for switch - the switch itself is large and very easy to use. "Eye of Sauron" - as some call light sensor, for certain will attract the attention of every customer :naughty:.






Read more :thumbsup: =>> Petzl NAO it works !


----------



## d1337

Thanks for another great review Szemhazai. I tried one of these in the store but it is nice to see some outdoor testing. I think for me I will stick with my Zebralight H600. I do like the reactive lighting but wonder if it would be something that I would use for a short time and then go back to manual mode. I am happy to see Petzel making some innovations again.


----------



## Szemhazai

I am going to test it on 140+ km trail race over next weekend :rock:- I will see how it really works :devil:. Only the battery problem is no longer an issue for me - but I'll know +/- what is the power usage in some real conditions.


----------



## borrower

Thanks for a great review.


----------



## Szemhazai

On last weekend we had some competition in mountains, so I took it with me :candle:




As expected, in the clouds it switched lumen output to a minimum assuming that the amount of light is sufficient. Switching to manual mode did not improve the situation, because the array of light in front of your eyes does not help you in the observation of slippery rocks underfoot. I switched to Reactive Mode High and pushed forward without problems. Small drizzle does not interfere with the reactive system.




The lamp fluently switches between the modes between flood and spot as needed – for most of the time I was using Reactive mode LOW, using 2400mAh battery in night competition environment, with the temperature about 4*C, the practical burn time was almost 8 hours. The headband is comfortable, but after 10 hours I’ve started to feel those two plastic adapters between headband and cords. 

In summary – it works fine, but without the spare battery I would curse it many times before sunrise .


----------



## Mooreshire

What do the reactive modes do when you smear some mud on the sensor? I'm guessing it bumps up very high thinking zero lux is being returned.

Thanks for the excellent review!


----------



## Lantos

Nice review, as always!

It would be nice to see a 3400mAh 18650 mod 

I love my Petzl Nao. This is the first headlamp which is really lets hendsfree use.


----------



## iTorch

So after much debate and rweading reviews I finally ordered one, had a hell of a hard time as the first time it arrived they could not turn it on in the shop (Battery flat), and i refused to buy it if it would not go...evfentually they put some aaa in it and it worked like a trooper.
Took it home and gave the recharge a good blast on an iPhone carger, put on the included head strapy thing and wow, this puts out some serious juice, have now downloaded software and plan to set it up to my specs.
Only down side is once you turn it off, the light from the charge indicator is also very bright for a few secs so if you want instant off you are not going to get it.
Sold my old headlight though - this is just too good!


----------



## Ggmesquita

I bought one. Great headlamp. Hey, thanks for the review.
Would you be able to explain exactly where did you solder the thermisor and which one did you use?
More close-up pictures of the final soldered board and battery holder would be much appreciated.
I am definitely doing the mod when I fell I got it right.

By the way, Does anyone have good recommendations for the profile settings?
I like the floody side so much!


----------



## HaileStorm

This makes me want to "need" a headlamp...


----------



## chasm22

Hi guys, 

Petzl states in the literature that the battery alone(without the plastic container) is available but I haven't seen it sold anywhere except when packaged as part of the expensive pack. The literature says to reference part E36A20.


I would hope this would drop the price significantly and allow an easier path for possible hacks.

Also the literature states the battery is warranted for one year. 

chasm22


----------



## Szemhazai

I've done it... 2x Cree XP-G2 R4 3A tint


----------



## Microa

Great job. Beamshots please. Anxious to compare the difference with XPG.


----------



## Szemhazai

The difference in light output is almost invisible by naked eye, the spot is a bit smaller... More distinctive is the difference in the light tint (from some 6000+K to 5000+K ).

High





Low


----------



## Microa

Thanks for sharing. In my opinion, I prefer the 3A tint.


----------



## Lantos

Very nice tint... and longer runtime with the xp-g2.


----------



## OAM

Just picked up a Nao about two weeks ago and love it, especially when paired with the Petzl OS software. I was wondering if anyone has successfully made a spare battery yet or modded their original one for mah?


----------



## TSellers

A review on Amazon indicated the 315 Lumens is achieved as a sum total of the two separate emitters:


> Summary: Despite its short comings, this head torch is a game changer purely based on the software customisation. It produces an excellent light output for all but the more demanding spotlighting applications, and I wouldn't consider it for downhill skiing/snowboarding or mountain bike riding (you will need triple the output of this light). If you want a dual 150 + 150 lumen head torch with excellent diffuse light output and reasonable spotting capability (for a light and Petzl NAO Headlampcompact head torch), that is software customisable to exactly how you like, then this torch is for you.



The beamshots posted above for High on reactive mode would appear to corroborate this. Is that an accurate assessment of this unit?

Also BTW, a caveat for those that ski in avalanche terrain and use this, from another review:


> I then checked for interference with my avalanche beacons, and indeed found that close proximity to the beacons introduces a significant amount of noise.


----------



## jmm244

TSellers said:


> ...Is that an accurate assessment of this unit?


Maybe only sort of...

Downhill skiing and snowboarding are inherent go fast activities that many people find best accommodated by constant mode lights with high output flood AND throw capabilities. Downhill type mountain bike racers might feel the same way, but I find my NAO highly appropriate for the type of mountain biking I'm currently most interested in doing at night. Two hands stuffed into a set of Bar Mitts on a fat tired Salsa Mukluk "snow bike" can get pretty busy trying keep the thing moving forward AND right side up, which doesn't leave an appendage free to mess with a light mode switch on demand. 

I've been using my NAO for months and sometimes used to get annoyed when it changed modes unexpectedly, but I eventually learned to remember why it did what it did, I programmed it to do that! You can always select constant mode if you want, but I've come to appreciate the thing helping to preserve some of my dark adaptation vision by stepping down when I look down, glance over at a nearby tree or snow covered bush, exhale a big cloud of ice crystals in front of my face or crash.

I couldn't find a dealer that would sell me just a spare shrink wrapped inner lithium plug-in battery, so I eventually bought another complete NAO Battery Pack (and belt mount kit too). 

If the NAO can be heard on an avalanche transceiver, I wonder it it might also be best to turn it off before activating a PLB nearby if the need arose? Thanks for the tip.

The NAO may not be perfect, but it just might be more so than many other currently available headlights (YMMV).


----------



## TSellers

Thanks for the unbiased and insightful views on this. I wonder if the other manufacturers will follow suit with this technology, or if something else in terms of more refinements will be around the corner. My take is it might be unforgivable the way Petzl make the consumer eschew the use of a standard OEM 18650 of their choice. I did some quick math and if you were on a multi day trip and wanted to get the same 11.5 hours at 320 lumen that the Spark SX5 would give you with the optional belt pack containing 4 18650's, you'd need 8 extra battery packs for the Petzl, so your total investment would be up to $640.00 for the Petzl and you'd be close to 1 Kilo in weight as opposed to 350g for the Spark setup at around $150.00 or so.

Regarding the beacon, the reviewer did say if the beacon was kept 3' from the light it should be OK. Ditto with the noise he saw in his pictures. I think I'll be going with a Spark due to the RFI shielding that is inherent to their construction, and of course other factors such as price and hinge. I have had bad luck with hinge designs in the past from breakage to simply flopping downward and that's a reason Zebralight and Spark caught my attention to start with.


----------



## Incahoots

Nice review, Thank you!


----------



## the badger

Great review! I bought a Nao back in mid Oct and love it. Sure it has it's flaws (namely the fog issue discussed above and also when breathing), but that stuff is expected from a first generation product. I'm not quite sure how Petzl and others will rectify the reactive/fog issue, but it sure would be nice if the sensor could detect that you are in a foggy/humid environment, and compensate for it. Things to look forward to I guess..


----------



## USAMisix

Great post about this product! I wish I had seen it when I was doing my initial research. I do photography, outdoor concerts etc and this comes in really handy when breaking down my gear after a show when there is no power in the field. I got a Petz NAO headlamp also for a friend of mine and they loved it. When I was doing research I found this place linked here..... first post link removed.... that was really great about talking with me more on the product before making my purchase. They have great customer support, check them out! I can't say enough good things about the headlamp. I am so paranoid about leaving my photo gear behind that trying to see in the dark makes having one of these a pure pleasure.Ty


----------



## AnAppleSnail

The air force detects fog (contrails) with a laser. On the ground you'd need a different system: if an offset laser looks like a point to a sensor, no fog. If it looks like a smear or a line, there's fog.


----------



## johnny0000

Fantastic review as always. Great reading. Thank you


----------



## beamon

> My NAO have a pretty nice tint of light, but the manufacturer does not claim to use selected LED’s, so as usual it may depend on the series.



Thanks for this fine review. I'm very interested in the Nao, but I'm hesitant only because I wonder if the nice, less-bluish tint shown in this review is the same tint emitted by all Naos. Can anyone confirm this? I'd rather get a headlamp that doesn't have a harsh blue "cool white" tint.


----------



## jmm244

beamon said:


> ...I wonder if the nice, less-bluish tint shown in this review is the same tint emitted by all Naos. Can anyone confirm this?...


The tint of my NAO also appears similar to to the shots in the review, quite pleasant. I too was concerned about the possibility of receiving something with a tint as blue as Petzl is known for in lights like their TIKKINA (2), and was quite relieved to receive a NAO with a more neutral tint (they seem to be doing better in their newer/higher end lights).


----------



## Ggmesquita

I have a NAO and I liked it so much, I gave one to my dad. I did compare the tints and I there is a difference. Mine looks more like the photos of the review. While his has a slightly green tint to it. They were bought about 3 months apart.


----------



## beamon

Thank you, jmm244 and Ggmesquita, for your responses. I'm relieved! I’m now just waiting for a good sale on the Nao.


----------



## HistoryChannel

Thanks for the review... I just got the Petzl Nao and I am already frustrated that Petzl did not just use a standard battery case so we can slide in an 18650 of our choosing... They could have EASILY put that 100KOhm NTC thermistor in the battery case and not attached to their battery. Sure it might get rid of the AAA emergency battery option, but they could easily sell a battery shell with no 18650 in it as a spare for AAA emergencies.

Now I am looking to immediately upgrade the OEM battery to an AW18650 3400mAH. But I will be trying to figure out a way to move the electronics to the small space in the battery case, and using standard metal prongs so I can easily slide in and out the 18650 battery. This way, I can charge my batteries using my Xtar charger with good cc/cv algorithm. Plus it will be easy to bring a bunch of charged 18650's to swap out with when needed rather than trying to carefully pull out theMolex 5264-3P connector. 

The headlamp itself is awesome!!!!! LOVE IT, hate their proprietary battery setup.... grrrrrr!!!!!


----------



## TSellers

> The headlamp itself is awesome!!!!! LOVE IT



Would be great to hear exactly why it's awesome. And I don't mean this in a disparaging way, as when I was evaluating it in no way struck me as having enough redeeming features to overcome the many downsides to it's trendy design. So I'd like to hear about what I overlooked so I won't be so blind next time I'm evaluating a new product. What I'd like to see but have not found so far is a documentation of features this light offers that makes it surpass the other more affordable offerings that are on the landscape? So far all I've been able to dig up are seat of the pants impressions of the light which unto themselves are valuable as first impressions, but I'd like to hear from someone that has ridden it hard and put it away wet.


----------



## HistoryChannel

Well I'm an avid hiker and go canyoneering often. I just went on an overnight hike up to Telegraph Peak in Cucamonga Wilderness in SBNF, CA. 9000 ft and snowing pretty hard too. I specifically went up to test out the BioLite Stove I just got.

I've been hiking since I was in Boy Scouts and know what looks good on paper isn't necessarily how it performs in the real world. Everything I have picked for gear was tested and abused and survived. Wen hiking I take into consideration size, weight, ruggedness and performance. 

The Nao will get a full workout tomorrow so yes it will come back frozen, wet and beat up. I have all the permits already (Wilderness Permit, Fire permit, fuel wood permit, etc) so I'm set to go tomorrow. I plan on taking the Nao up to around 10,000 ft in freezing temps, most likely will be snowing at the time also. ( I'll see how the reactive lighting works with the reflection off falling snow).

Initially, I think the Nao is awesome for its programmable features. This is what sets the Nao apart from other headlamps in my opinion. I love that you can customize and live "test" the setting, meaning the light will fire up as you program the profile so you can see what the setting does. 

Being able to set output levels even for constant mode, up to 5 levels 0-100% output each level in 1% increments and being able to see a runtime estimate for each output level selected is a huge plus. And you get 3 personal slots. Example: slot 2 you can have the constant set at 5% / 15% / 30% / 70% / 100%... And have different settings for 2 more profiles. 

The Multi-activity seems standard and has to stay in slot 1. Slots 2-4 is customizable with each profile being able to handle 5 levels of reactive and constant each. This, this means I can have a profile for hiking and when I come up against a boulder I have to climb, I can switch my rock climbing profile. 

The head strap is secure and comfortable. More comfortable that some other headlamps I have. Being rechargeable is a plus (even with the 2300 mAH 18650 it comes with). 

Is it expensive? Yes.... It's would be much better at around $149.99. But when I get the battery pack modded with the AW 18650 3400 mAH, I think this will be my #1 go to headlamp. It will take many real world testing and tweaking of the custom profiles I have made, but when the profiles are dialed in to my personal satisfaction... I think this will be an excellent headlamp added to my collection. 

This is not a headlamp for the casual user. But geared toward those who like to tweak with the output settings.


----------



## HistoryChannel

TSellers said:


> I'd like to hear from someone that has ridden it hard and put it away wet.



Ok, here you go. I took the Nao up with me to test it out. I typed up my thoughts...

For those who want a visual on what the Reactive lighting is: http://youtu.be/FZb3k_x067w

My real world testing of the Petzl Nao, and quick thoughts on the Fenix PD32UE tested on a real deep wilderness hiking trip.

Location and conditions for real world use test:
Cucamonga Wilderness, San Bernardino National Forest (SBNF), CA
Entry point was at the Middle Fork Trailhead 6W01 (3,983 ft and light snow dusting on ground) using the upper trail past Third Stream Crossing (5,600 ft, 2-4" of snow) to Icehouse Saddle (7,600 ft). From there I headed North to Telegraph Peak (8,985 ft, 6-10" of snow). Getting to Telegraph peak was done in daylight, and coming back was after sunset. Weather conditions ranged from 41 degrees at the Middle Fork Trailhead to 19 degrees at Telegraph Peak after sunset. Some stream hopping and heavy foliage and huge boulder climbing/descending was necessary.






I’ll skip right to the part where I started testing the lights. 

The Fenix PD32UE puts out a WALL of light. I do not doubt the specs pushing 740 lumens. It was a wide spot so it did not penetrate very far in the pitch dark wilderness. But closer range it just completely lit up the area. It is (in my opinion) an average performing light for hiking good as a secondary unit. Mainly due to the side switch. The placement of the side switch (mode switching) is exactly where my pinky or palm falls when using gloves. And sometimes I would hit the switch accidentally switching modes unintentionally. The 2 raised sided around the tailcap is annoying and made it harder to use with gloves. It was hard to sense where the raised spots were and could not reliably push the button. Also, the 3 minutes on Burst mode was annoying as I surveyed the area and/or looked for eye shine for longer than this sometimes and would kick down to a lower level. Also, the 30 minutes or so on Turbo limit makes it pretty much a 3 level light with limited Turbo/Burst use. This is not my first choice for deep woods hiking. Great EDC light though. Performed flawlessly being dunked in the ice cold stream and thrown around in snow. 

Petzl Nao:
It started getting dark right around 6:00 PM, (the Mountains and heavy trees cover the sun losing light earlier than in the city.I put on my Nao right around 6:15 and turned it on. I programmed the light using the Petzl Provided “Hiking” profile and tweaked it a bit. In reactive mode, I have it set for 5 levels of lighting ranging from 15% flood to 100% spot/40% flood. The Reactive mode performed very well, staying at level 1 most of the time I was cooking up my meal before heading down. The deep woods do play mind tricks on you with strange noises and unidentifiable animal sounds, so I kept looking up and around the area. The levels changed fast and reliably, as I scanned around for any eye shine to worry about since the Ranger I spoke with before heading out said his truck was chased by a Mtn Lion a few days prior.

This is where the reactive mode really helped, because normally I would flip through the different modes frequently. Having the handsfree option was nice. Also, I had 3 profiles stored in the headlamp and was able to switch from very low light profile to max output profile easily when I needed to. For example, when I was out collecting dry firewood I would have it on Reactive on a high profile I had programmed for doing tasks such as this. Then when I returned to my little area I switched to a low output profile except for Level 5 which I had set at 100% spot in case I looked up to see far.

When I needed to climb over some boulders and navigate through heavy foliage, I set it to my low light hiking profile because I didn’t want to be accidentally blinded by 350+ lumens bouncing back at me. 

Here are my thoughts on some pros and cons after taking it out for half a day, half of which was in pitch darkness in deep woods, sometimes away from any sort of trails.






Pros:
-User programable light levels from 1%-100%. This is the #1 feature in my opinion because one person’s opinion of “low” is different from another. One person might want 5 lumens for low while another might want 10 lumens, etc. With other Headlamps I have used, you get what the company provides you. so if low is set at 15 lumens, med at 60 lumens and high at 200 lumens... its what you get and have to live with. So if you want specific programmability for output levels, this is the headlight for you.

-Reactive lighting. Yes, it worked very well. Better than I expected. As I hiked the trail, and looked down at my feet, it triggered level 1 which I had set at 20% flood only. Then as I looked up the light recognized this and progressively went to Level 2,3,4, and finally 5 which I had set at 100% spot and 40% flood. Level switching was very smooth and ramped up and down rather than an abrupt switch as I navigated through heavy forest landscape.

-Water Resistant. I wouldn’t use this under water, but the rubber gaskets kept the moisture out. I did dunk it in the stream and drop it in snow. a quick wipe down and it worked fine. This will survive in rain and splashing conditions. 

-Head strap. The 2 bungees on both sides actually work better than my band type head strap. Especially when it got wet, I felt the effects less. It was comfortable to wear for my 4 hour hike through and out of the wilderness.

-Battery Life in Reactive mode. Battery life totally depends on your programming of levels and light intensities at those levels. At 100% output, this is rated at just over an hour of runtime. After 4 hours of real world use in rugged terrain, the indicator showed 2 bars out of 3 lit so runtime is excellent. With the right programming, you can achieve 12+ hours of reactive lighting or a little over an hour depending on your needs.

-Live runtime estimates and test feature for the programming software. You can program and set levels while watching the estimated runtime estimate adjust based on your programming. And you can hit “Test” and the light will fire up at the level you are setting. At any time you can move the Spot and Flood intensity setting and the Nao will respond accordingly live so you can see the light produced at that current setting. Very nice feature. I played with it and tweaked the Flood/Spot mixture til I got the settings I liked.

-Switch. I wore Camelbak’s cold weather gloves and I was easily able to operate the switch. Switching between Reactive levels and Constant and profiles is simple.

Cons:
-Power design. Well this thing uses a 18650 Li-ion battery, but in a proprietary “Petzl” setup. It would have been ideal for the end user if Petzl would have placed the necessary small electronics to the battery case so the 18650 could be popped in and out easily. With some gutting and soldering and shrink wrapping, a savvy user can upgrade this battery. But the point is we shouldn't have to do all that. As it stands, if you do not want to mess with anything, you will have to buy $50 spare battery units and you only get 2300 mAh, frustrating when there are better 3400 mAh choices out there. 

-Price. At $175 retail, this is expensive for a headlamp. I would like to see 2 versions of this, one as is for a little less, maybe $149.99 would make it more competitive and another version without the reactive feature but keeping the programmable profiles/ output levels reducing the price even further for those that do not need or want reactive lighting. 

-Heavy fog interferes with the reactive sensor. I don’t know if this is really a “con” because it’s not the fault of the headlamp. But it did do some funky level changes while I hiked through some heavy fog. Also, even without fog, the moisture from my breath would flicker the light as it passed over the sensor. Again, I don’t know if there is anything Petzl could do to fix this, it is just the nature of how the reactive mode works...

Overall, after using it this will be my #1 headlamp for night hiking due to the #1. Programmable Profiles and #2. Reactive lighting reducing the need to manually adjust to almost never. In some situations, I’d say about 10% of the time, I did manually adjust Spot/Flood/Lighting output. This is not for everyone as there are very nice alternatives. So this can be summarized by saying that the Petzl Nao sets itself apart from its competition by being programmable and having Reactive lighting.

My trusty Subaru got me to there and back..... never have needed chains


----------



## TSellers

Thanks for that comprehensive review. Tonight as I descended from 2200M to 1700M, all of it in the dark, I was thinking about the subject of light levels. For what I was doing I use a flood on my hip belt on high (Spark SD6-NW), and a spot on my head (Spark ST-6 NW), also on high. That's where they stayed the whole time except for a couple of Turbo mode bursts: Turbo spot where it got steeper crossing an avalanche path, and you want to move quickly, and Turbo Flood crossing some icy spots and you want to move carefully. For that sort of activity the flood/spot combination are a real bonus, as are the 34000mAh Panasonic cells, which after about 2 hrs of use still read 3.9v when I got home. So in these circumstances the ability to sustain high mode for the longest possible time became the priority and everything went well. While reactive lighting would not be required, the NW tint with the snow is a must. Did not have the same luck with the Garmin Forerunner 410 however, it's battery barely made it, and the GPS could not deal with course reversals on tight switchbacks very well. This time of year hard to evaluate the headband fit, as winter headgear seems to mitigate it anyway. BTW, at night cougars usually attack from behind, the best defence is watching for tracks rather than eye-shine so if something does jump on your back your can of pepper spray is already poised to deploy over your shoulder (our researchers used to wear Saddam Hussein masks on the back of their heads when doing cougar transects, a trick apparently learned from African Game Wardens). The first Grizzly sighting was last week in our neck of the woods, or rather more accurate to say in our neck of the railroad tracks, where he was seen patrolling for spilt grain on the tracks.


----------



## HistoryChannel

I did have a can of 10.2oz pepper spray on a chest holster and a sidearm for this hike, I was thinking the same as you.... a Mtn Lion would attack from the rear. So I would pull a crazy Ivan and just suddenly stop every so often and just listen, then I spotlighted around behind me for any eyeshine. And I did read somewhere that wearing a mask on the back of your head confuses and deters stalking animals.

And my NiMH Duracells failed in my Garmin Foretrex due to the cold and had to replace it with my Lithium AAA backup I brought luckily. 

I did fail to mention the tint of the Nao was way too cool and accurate color rendition was not possible. 

Have you ever seen a bear in the wild before? I would love to see one!!! Here in CA, there are approximately 25,000-30,000 bears but mostly in the northern areas of the state.


----------



## TSellers

Never heard of a cougar chasing a vehicle before, wonder if the Ranger mistook the neighbour's large tom cat that was chasing the can of Tuna he had thrown in the box there after he had his lunch. There are about a dozen habituated Grizzlies on the landscape in our field unit so they are pretty much spotted on a daily basis, they can be easily found via telemetry because their GPS collars upload every 30 minutes. The stats are starting to show there is a greater chance of surviving a contact charge with pepper spray than a firearm. I personally doubt that mask on the back of the head theory would work with cats, but who knows? (At that time the researchers just had two mask choices they could buy locally, and they thought Saddam would work better than George Bush. They must have been right, as they are all still alive almost 20 years later.) 

It will be interesting to see if the reactive lighting concept will take hold, but as you say they have shot themselves in the foot with that proprietary battery pack, too bad they have not learned from the opensource community. For Search and Rescue work the tint is pretty important, especially for assessing patient cyanosis and cap refill status after they have been dug from avalanche debris. However I was thinking that maybe that's where the Nao would outshine the competition (pun intended). Get buried in an avalanche with my Spark on Turbo mode, hands pinned by my sides, and they dig me up with my brain fried like an egg after the lamp overheats insulated by all the snow. At least the Nao would not fry your forehead and give you more prolonged light to read by as you waited for your rescuers to find you.


----------



## rojos

Thanks for the review and the sweet photos.


----------



## jmm244

HistoryChannel said:


> ...-Head strap. The 2 bungees on both sides actually work better than my band type head strap. Especially when it got wet, I felt the effects less. It was comfortable to wear for my 4 hour hike through and out of the wilderness



I'm curious about what you were wearing under the NAO? You mentioned that it got to ~19 degrees after dark so I assume you didn't have on ultra thick headgear.

I've had my NAO out in the single digits with some pretty bulky headgear on (soft/layered), and with my 7 5/8" head the front tensioning straps reached the limit of their stretch and things got a bit uncomfortable (and forget about getting it on over any kind of adult sized helmet, regardless of what they show in the promotional video). I'm going to order another headband and try replacing the non stretchable paracord like rear portion of the harness with something longer/adjustable.

With this model/type of light being new, I'm sure some of the downsides will eventually be addressed by Petzl, modders or other manufacturers but I'm not waiting. I'm old, and a lot of my friends have already died while holding out for next generation technology to address some perceived product shortcoming. I'm going to enjoy my NAO now, and if someone offers an improved variant in the future, I'll buy that too, if I'm still around.

We only have black bears and imaginary mountain lions in western New York where I live, but I once got chased by a mangy (rabid?) opossum while out on snowshoes. That was a freaky experience, but it occurred back in the days when we carried Maglites, so I could have always thrown it at him as a last resort (there's another thing the NAO isn't good for).


----------



## HistoryChannel

I had on a beanie. It fit ok over the beanie. I can see it not working on some helmets. And I encountered many opossum and they are aggressive as all heck.


----------



## carrot

Hey HistoryChannel, I'd sure like to see some bigger versions of those panoramas you teased us with above.

On the subject of the NAO I haven't been able to test mine out that much so far since I only recently got one but I'm pretty impressed. I think it's quite neat how the two LEDs can combine their power in different amounts, almost creating the appearance of a single beam that has some focusability.

One thing I will note is that the NAO seems a little confused in Reactive mode in winter when you breathe out and it sees the condensation in your breath, as the puffs of condensation temporarily increase the light reflected back to the sensor.

I'm really looking forward to Petzl's next generation of reactive headlamp, the Tikka RXP, which will be more compact and hopefully a sorts of NAO 2.0.


----------



## HistoryChannel

carrot said:


> Hey HistoryChannel, I'd sure like to see some bigger versions of those panoramas you teased us with above.
> 
> On the subject of the NAO I haven't been able to test mine out that much so far since I only recently got one but I'm pretty impressed. I think it's quite neat how the two LEDs can combine their power in different amounts, almost creating the appearance of a single beam that has some focusability.
> 
> One thing I will note is that the NAO seems a little confused in Reactive mode in winter when you breathe out and it sees the condensation in your breath, as the puffs of condensation temporarily increase the light reflected back to the sensor.
> 
> I'm really looking forward to Petzl's next generation of reactive headlamp, the Tikka RXP, which will be more compact and hopefully a sorts of NAO 2.0.



Hi carrot,

I do have the full versions of the pano pics, dozens actually. But they are 18-20 megapixels and huge files. I used my iPhone with the native pano feature. I can try and post thumbnails linking to full versions. 

And I did include in my review also that the Nao does react to breath fog, also in dense natural fog, smoke from fire (campfire, etc). Basically anything that can reflect light and confuse the lamp. 

I wrote to Petzl to voice my concern with their choice of battery implementation. That they need to be end user friendly and allow a drop in battery system. If their OEM battery that came with the unit goes bad, we have to buy the whole pack for $50 and basically have a useless original pack. 

I got a generic response that batteries by itself are not available and we have to buy the battery and pack together. Insane when quality 18650 batteries are available for less than $20.


----------



## jmm244

Several NAO reviews, here and other places (including mine), have mentioned the winter breath fog dimming thing, but is it really a negative? If you exhale in front of a high power non-reactive headlamp you get a big blast of bounce back in your eyes, which messes up your dark adaptation to a greater extent than with the NAO. The fact that regular headlights DON'T dim when you exhale a big cloud of ice crystals in front of them is the real negative.


----------



## TSellers

> you get a big blast of bounce back in your eyes,



Yes, with a highly reflective tint such as something in the 6500K range. Not so much at 4000K. In the below example taken a couple of nights ago, you can see this dynamic illustrated by the near foreground high wavelength flood that is reflecting the falling snowflakes, whereas the neutral white tint of the SX5 mitigates the problem, and that, along with the fact they are RFI shielded, are two of many reasons we selected them for Search and Rescue activities after the NAO was disqualified:


----------



## HistoryChannel

I listed this as a negative because the light is doing something I was not expecting and or wanting the light to do, all on its own. 

It is not the fault of the light design or function, but it is doing something on its own. The flicker can be annoying and sometime disorienting that caused me to stop for a second until it stopped flickering. This was a problem when navigating intricate conditions such as slippery rocks and logs over a stream in pitch dark conditions. In those situations I would much rather have the predictable constant on. 

I learned to switch from reactive to constant based on situation which solved that problem.


----------



## TSellers

> If you exhale in front of a high power non-reactive headlamp you get a big blast of bounce back in your eyes, which messes up your dark adaptation



I've found that when I have a headlamp on high power setting, let's say in the range of 300-500 lumens, my night vision is adapted to that level of ambient lighting because that's the field I'm looking into. In other words I do not have much for night vision adaptation at that point. When the fog from exhalation floats past it does not seem to change anything. Again, it has made me wonder if you have found it does impact your vision in a negative way, perhaps it would be related to the tint. What is the tint on the NAO by the way? I couldn't seem to find that out using Google, could it be high enough to cause this problem? Maybe in future they will bring out some models that offer different tint options.


----------



## jmm244

TSellers said:


> ... it has made me wonder if you have found it does impact your vision in a negative way, perhaps it would be related to the tint. What is the tint on the NAO by the way?...


Maybe you're onto something. The tint of my NAO lies somewhere between the neutral of my Zebralight H600W and my cooler Princeton Tec Apex (an old one), but it's nowhere near as cool as my Petzl Tikkina 2. Some conditions seem to affect some people to a different extent than others, and maybe I'm just over sensitive to a particular tint and/or bounce back, just like I'm apparently NOT very sensitive to the PWM flicker that some people complain about at reduced output levels on some lights. As a matter of fact, my appreciation of auto dimming may have something to do with my age, if my irises can't adjust as fast as they used to be able to. I also remember reading somewhere that as the accident rates start to increase for "advanced aged" drivers, they go up exponentially at night, so maybe there's something else going on that has a bearing on my particular situation. Although YMMV, if I ever run across a "Like Button" for my NAO I'll click it, but can also understand why others may not.


----------



## TSellers

Wow, we headed out tonight for a 14km night ski exercise and while we were driving I was talking to my spouse about the headlights we'd be using and about this post. In fact we just got back a few minutes ago. It was -7c and I noticed my breath had no effect at all even though I had two head mounted lights and one is probably around 5000k, and then I also started to think, this is the Rockies, humidity is real low, I'll bet it's completely different on the coast. My spouse (who is 26 years younger than me) also mused about the effect retinopathy can have with night vision in old farts such as myself (even though she cannot keep up with me), and I remarked I'm glad I recently had my mandatory work medical and eye exam results done so I knew my blood glucose levels were normal, and no cataracts so far to worry about. However, even though I know for now I'm OK on those two fronts, I can tell my night vision is not what it was 20 years ago. But when we assessed lights for S&R work tint was a major factor because it is hard enough to assess patient cyanosis and capillary refill status at the best of times in the dark and trying to see dichotomous purple under a purple tint light is just no joy. I am out a lot at night, and sometimes my work has me a long way from the trailhead carrying a firearm. I'm finding that I can actually 'relax' a lot more with a neutral tint and floody beam than I did with my PT Apex I used for years. This summer my DIY C20 host with the 8*7135 driver and neutral white XM-L emitter is going into the Weaver mount in my firearm when no-one is looking (and ironically has the PWM on medium that drove me nuts tonight).


----------



## TSellers

I just noticed a 1000+ lumen Bluetooth programmable flashlight with unlimited number of programmable modes via free Windows and Android apps is now on the market at the $60.00 price point. Perhaps a similar model of headlamp may be soon to follow for those that have taken a like to the programmable modes of the Nao.


----------



## uk_caver

For twin-beam headlights, there's a lot to be said for having control via a couple of pushbuttons or a 3-position switch, especially for people who want to have real control over the light.

But given that physical interface, it's possible to make a decent UI which gives good direct control and/or which allows reconfigurability without the need for external devices.


----------



## wild bill

nice looking light, but proprietary battery, less lumens than my old Coast HL7 and 4 times the price??? - these Frenchmen must be doing some seriously good drugs - this just needs the word "Gucci" on the label to top it off - lol


----------



## HistoryChannel

wild bill said:


> nice looking light, but proprietary battery, less lumens than my old Coast HL7 and 4 times the price??? - these Frenchmen must be doing some seriously good drugs - this just needs the word "Gucci" on the label to top it off - lol



Well, it does use a 18650 battery and I did some surgery for about 20 minutes to make the 18650 pop in and out easily. I now use the Orbtronics 3400 mAh. The selling point with the Nao is the virtually infinitely customizable output levels and "Reactive" mode. Its on the expensive side but after using the Reactive mode, I can't go back to manual mode. 

This isn't for the casual headlamp user for sure. But heck, my backpack costs me $350 and carry over $1,500 worth of mountaineering equipment anyway.... another $150 for a headlamp isn't gonna kill me. I'm actually about to buy the Petzl Ultra Rush Belt ($500) and strap it to the shoulder strap of my backpack and route the batter into the backpack. 

I think it just depends on the person, there is no right or wrong here. Some are fine with a $20 maglite, some like to spend $250 on a Surefire. It's just a matter of needs and taste? My brother in law makes over $200,000/year salary and drives an old 1994 Honda Civic. He says cars are the worst investment and isn't worth it. I only make half as much as he does and drive a $58,000 SUV. Completely different view.


----------



## wild bill

I think your logic assumes that Petzl quality is worlds ahead of other gear, as someone who has used Petzl headlamps since the 1990's, I would say that is only kind of true - they are far better quality than cheap headlamps, for sure, but Petzl has had its own reliability issues from time to time, they are overall good, but certainly *not* "the Lexus of headlamps", so to speak, reliability-wise, but they sure are priced as such!


----------



## uk_caver

HistoryChannel said:


> Its on the expensive side but after using the Reactive mode, I can't go back to manual mode.


I can understand that, but while it's decent for a consumer light, the manual operation of the Nao isn't the most powerful way of controlling a twin-beam light.
While acknowledging the configurability, it's still effectively like having a single pushbutton cycling through a list of pre-decided power/blend combinations, something which has a fairly natural limit to how long a sequence can conveniently be.


----------



## HistoryChannel

wild bill said:


> I think your logic assumes that Petzl quality is worlds ahead of other gear, as someone who has used Petzl headlamps since the 1990's, I would say that is only kind of true - they are far better quality than cheap headlamps, for sure, but Petzl has had its own reliability issues from time to time, they are overall good, but certainly *not* "the Lexus of headlamps", so to speak, reliability-wise, but they sure are priced as such!



True. I think Petzl definitely makes cheap, less quality headlamps in the $35 range all the way to $500 range. The quality of the Nao is significantly better than the lower priced Petzl lamps. At $175 retail, it's expensive as I mentioned before. But I'm glad there are companies that are willing to push out new ideas. 

It's really more of a convenience thing, not a necessity. I've been using manual headlamps for decades and its been fine. I guess kinda like when automatic transmissions came to be in cars... Manual works fine... Auto tranny was just a convenience thing. 

Surefire has the new E2DL Ultra 500lm at $265 MSRP. Is it really $200 better than say... A Fenix PD32UE 740lm? Even at 2 modes and an unexciting 500 lumens... It seems like demand is exceeding supply.


----------



## Solscud007

HistoryChannel, got pics and details on how you modded the pack to pop in 18650.


----------



## lutgulajn

I found something that looks like a problem with my NAO, but I am not absolutely sure.


There it is:


It is OFF, 
I turn and hold the knob 
it turns ON (directly in Constant Mode)
then after exactly 10 seconds it turns OFF by itself




It does that (switching OFF by itself) only if I switch it ON in Constant Mode (turning and holding the knob)
If I turn and release (short pulse) the knob it goes (from OFF) to Reactive Mode, and everything is working fine.
If I choose Constant Mode after it been switched ON in Reactive Mode it works fine...


So can someone check on his NAO is it normal to turns ON directly in Constant Mode? In the manual there is a line: "When turned ON the light goes automatically in Reactive Mode"


And most important - is this normal to turn itself OFF after 10 seconds when switched directly in Constant Mode or this is some kind of malfunction?


NAO is by far the greatest head torch I have ever used (and I have many!) Very glad with it!


----------



## HistoryChannel

Solscud007 said:


> HistoryChannel, got pics and details on how you modded the pack to pop in 18650.



The pack already uses 18650 from the factory. The problem was that the electronics that control the charge LED was added to the 18650 (shrink wrapped onto the 18650). I just cut the wires, threw out the OEM 18650 and soldered the wires to metal contact springs. The charge level indicator doesn't work anymore but I really don't care because I use my Xtar VP1 to charge and carry a spare. The 3400 mAh lasts over 6 hours on reactive so not an issue to check battery status for me. 

There is someone that cut out the electronic board and made it part of the case so he can still pop in and out the battery and the charge level LED still works.


----------



## HistoryChannel

lutgulajn said:


> I found something that looks like a problem with my NAO, but I am not absolutely sure.
> 
> 
> There it is:
> 
> 
> It is OFF,
> I turn and hold the knob
> it turns ON (directly in Constant Mode)
> then after exactly 10 seconds it turns OFF by itself
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It does that (switching OFF by itself) only if I switch it ON in Constant Mode (turning and holding the knob)
> If I turn and release (short pulse) the knob it goes (from OFF) to Reactive Mode, and everything is working fine.
> If I choose Constant Mode after it been switched ON in Reactive Mode it works fine...
> 
> 
> So can someone check on his NAO is it normal to turns ON directly in Constant Mode? In the manual there is a line: "When turned ON the light goes automatically in Reactive Mode"
> 
> 
> And most important - is this normal to turn itself OFF after 10 seconds when switched directly in Constant Mode or this is some kind of malfunction?
> 
> 
> NAO is by far the greatest head torch I have ever used (and I have many!) Very glad with it!



I'll check mine tonight when I get home.


----------



## lutgulajn

HistoryChannel said:


> I'll check mine tonight when I get home.



Thanks!

The battery have to be connected for some time. If I connect it right before "the try", nothing happens - everything works fine. 
So it has to be something with the electronics in the "head" I think...

Just try to connect the battery (if it was disconnected from the light head) wait 10 minutes, and then try switching it ON with *turning and holding the knob* (so it goes directly in Constant Mode). It does that strangeness only in Constant Mode.

I already wrote to Petzl to ask them but they just offer me to send the light to them to check. Probably the guys emailing are different than the guys in the service-station and they just do not know if this is a fault or something else...


----------



## Szemhazai

Personally I think that it will be a good thing, normal user is switching on, and holding until the light switch the mode, that is taking less than 2 seconds - if something is causing the knob to be pushed down for more than 10 seconds it cannot be user. Most probably accidental push in the luggage and the light is switching off after 10 seconds. But that's not that - mine is simply going through the modes from constant to reactive mode and so on...


----------



## Solscud007

I believe the auto shutoff may be a feature in the OS.








You can see I have selected on>levels>off but there is another option on>off after 8 secs. I dont know why you would want that. I havent tried this mode. Could you still switch modes with that option selected? Why would you want your headlamp to turn off after 8 secs?


----------



## lutgulajn

I am revising my words because I was not understood.


There are two ways of switching ON the light.


First is to *turn and release the knob as a short pulse* (for a part of a second) - in my case this makes the light to go in Reactive Mod and everything is OK.
Second way is to *turn and hold the knob as a longer pulse* (for a second or more but under two seconds) - this activates the Constant Mode, which in my case (after I released the knob) works for exactly 10 seconds and then turn itself OFF...




Thanks Solscud007!

There is some possibility this shutoff to be some kind of precaution in the OS (like the automatic switch OFF in Reactive Mode when the surrounding light is enough) but I doubt. Thats why I am asking you if you could check this on your lamps.

I am using the same *on>levels>off *option as you so the problem has to be elsewhere. I have not tried the *on>off after 8 secs *option either.


----------



## Solscud007

Yes. I understood. My Nao doesnt do that. Check the software and make sure that option is not set. Otherwise you might need to return it and get a new one.

Also I found the extension belt kit on sale. Havent ordered one yet.

http://petzl.factoryoutletstore.com/details/36482-61329/petzl-extension-cable-nao.html


----------



## HistoryChannel

My Nao does not do that either.... it stays on and does not shut off. Like Solscud007 said, it might be your settings/programming?


----------



## HistoryChannel

Solscud007 said:


> Also I found the extension belt kit on sale. Havent ordered one yet.
> 
> http://petzl.factoryoutletstore.com/details/36482-61329/petzl-extension-cable-nao.html



I was interested in getting that extension as well. It doesn't attach to any other battery does it? I was hoping I could use my Nao with the extension cable to attach a Petzl ACCU 4 Rechargeable Battery (From the Ultra Rush Belt model) but the plug looks totally different. WHY do companies do this?!?!? Wouldn't it be better if they shared components? So we can use the Petzl ACCU 4 Rechargeable Battery with the Nao for incredible runtime?


----------



## Solscud007

They must have gotten their business model from Sony.


----------



## uk_caver

The Ultra uses a 2s or 2s2p battery.
Would the Nao even be capable of using such a battery if some suitable adapter was made?

Even if it was so capable, as far as 'incredible runtimes' go, maybe that isn't a factor in many designer's thinking, even if the only issue was a neat Nao-only solution vs a less-neat more flexible one.
After all, excluding polar and subterranean activity, it only stays dark for so long before getting light again.

Now, personally, I like having a headlight with multi-day runtimes on lower power levels, for reasons of convenience (and knowing that if I only have one spare pack underground, it will give me light for weeks if necessary), but those runtimes on lower levels are arguably still side-effects of having adequate runtime on full output for most caving trips.


----------



## Szemhazai

HistoryChannel said:


> So we can use the Petzl ACCU 4 Rechargeable Battery with the Nao for incredible runtime?



It's a no go - NAO cannot work without the driver that is inside the battery pack.


----------



## HistoryChannel

Szemhazai said:


> It's a no go - NAO cannot work without the driver that is inside the battery pack.



Yup.... That's what I was saying. I wish Petzl would have designed it so we can. Or come out with a belt battery pack compatible with the Nao. 

Hate when companies do things to make money, like not use a battery system so we can pop in and out an 18650 of our choice. Instead we have to carry along an entire battery pack as backup for $50. Al Petzl had to do was make the electronics built into the battery pack NOT the battery. 

I sent a letter of complaint t petzl about that. I got back a generic response back that says currently they have no plans to do that and sorry for the inconvenience.... Blah blah. If every Petzl owner wrote them I bet it would get their attention about making a modular system so we can Lego pieces to our liking.


----------



## HistoryChannel

uk_caver said:


> The Ultra uses a 2s or 2s2p battery.
> Would the Nao even be capable of using such a battery if some suitable adapter was made?
> 
> Even if it was so capable, as far as 'incredible runtimes' go, maybe that isn't a factor in many designer's thinking, even if the only issue was a neat Nao-only solution vs a less-neat more flexible one.
> After all, excluding polar and subterranean activity, it only stays dark for so long before getting light again.
> 
> Now, personally, I like having a headlight with multi-day runtimes on lower power levels, for reasons of convenience (and knowing that if I only have one spare pack underground, it will give me light for weeks if necessary), but those runtimes on lower levels are arguably still side-effects of having adequate runtime on full output for most caving trips.



For most of my trips and headlamp use, the current runtime is decent. But I do go on multi-day off grid excursions. Or for SAR activity when the lights are full blast all the time runtime dwindles to an hour or two with the OEM pack. I guess the measly 2300 mAh proprietary battery pack for $50 is good enough for most. Just saying it would be nice if they offered a $30 battery pack with electronics in the case, and we get to use our own 18650 and have the option of a bigger belt pack. Maybe even a 4 x 18650 belt case with extension cable system? 

Then we can pop in a 3400 mAh cell or use 4 x 3400 mAh cells in the belt case. I need to be on the Petzl design team.


----------



## uk_caver

HistoryChannel said:


> Hate when companies do things to make money, like not use a battery system so we can pop in and out an 18650 of our choice. Instead we have to carry along an entire battery pack as backup for $50. Al Petzl had to do was make the electronics built into the battery pack NOT the battery.


With the relative immaturity of 18650 as a retail option, and the slew of crap cells pretending to be high capacity, I guess being proprietary does at least save them from complaints from people regarding poor runtimes on one or other FailFire cell.

Realistically, just at the moment, I think if they had been looking to make a light with easily user-replaceable cells, they'd probably have made it 3xAA NiMH.



HistoryChannel said:


> I sent a letter of complaint t petzl about that. I got back a generic response back that says currently they have no plans to do that and sorry for the inconvenience.... Blah blah. If every Petzl owner wrote them I bet it would get their attention about making a modular system so we can Lego pieces to our liking.



Somehow I doubt every Petzl owner _would_ write to them. I suspect they're not simply relying on customer inertia protecting them against that, but on you not being a _typical_ customer for this particular light.


----------



## uk_caver

HistoryChannel said:


> For most of my trips and headlamp use, the current runtime is decent. But I do go on multi-day off grid excursions. Or for SAR activity when the lights are full blast all the time runtime dwindles to an hour or two with the OEM pack. I guess the measly 2300 mAh proprietary battery pack for $50 is good enough for most. Just saying it would be nice if they offered a $30 battery pack with electronics in the case, and we get to use our own 18650 and have the option of a bigger belt pack. Maybe even a 4 x 18650 belt case with extension cable system?
> Then we can pop in a 3400 mAh cell or use 4 x 3400 mAh cells in the belt case.


I guess it comes down to perceived level of likely demand, _and how things fit into a price structure_.
A 4x18650 external pack would have to be seriously expensive in order not to make their 1x18650 spare look overpriced even by their own standards.
A 4p 18650 external holder would have to have solid built-in protection to keep it safe whatever kind of rubbish cells someone decided to use in it.



HistoryChannel said:


> I need to be on the Petzl design team.


I get the feeling that they do things in their own way, but I don't think they would be entirely deaf to customer comments, if such comments were frequent enough.

When it comes to their vertical gear, it does seem like changes they make from time to time probably are responding to user experience, whether directly from users writing to them, or from comments filtered back up via retailers and distributors.
I replace my harnesses and metalwork on a fairly regular basis, and it appears that the places where kit tends to wear out first are the places where new versions seem to make design changes which seem to be aimed at reducing wear.


----------



## HistoryChannel

There are just as many crap AA and AAA cells out there. Someone can throw in their old NiCad AA from 6 years ago or even buy a new crap NiCad battery and experience bad runtime so I don't think that's the reason. I truly believe companies make proprietary pieces for profit and less cross brand compatibility. If you want a spare battery, you HAVE to buy the Petzl $50 one. That is on purpose. 

People can run crap 123a batteries or crap 17670 LiIons or drop in a $5 Chinese LED etc. in a SF and there isn't a problem. 

A protection circuit is cheap and easy to build into a battery case. Petzl wanted to make the battery pack proprietary for profit is my thought.


----------



## uk_caver

While I'm sure that economics may well play a part in the thought process, the consumer market for loose 18650s really isn't mature, and that might be enough on its own to make many manufacturers wary.

Where I live, I'm highly unlikely to find 18650s at any retail outlet, and if I buy any mail order, legally speaking they should be couriered to me since the Royal Mail declines to ship them.
Even here (let alone in many other countries) while I may be able to find the odd national supplier, most suppliers I could find will be overseas, with other shipping restrictions attached.

That's not exactly a fantastic environment to launch a consumer-level product into which takes bare cells.
At the moment, 18650s are rather niche products.
You and I know about them, where to get them, what to buy and not to buy, but few average consumers have a clue.

It is a bit of a chicken-and-egg situation, but unless/until quality cells are readily available, with brand names a consumer doesn't have to research first on the internet, it's hard to see many non-niche lights being made to run solely on loose 18650s (18650/2xCR123 lights maybe being a borderline case).

If/when there are Duracell 18650s on the high street, then I think it would be completely fair to call out a manufacturer for having proprietary cells for a single-cell light, rather than just partially understandable.


----------



## HistoryChannel

Then Petzl should have made the Nao with a 3x AA battery case option. They went proprietary 18650 battery pack for a reason. Maybe they should at least sell the 18650 with their special circuit board separately. It just bugs me that even though I can pop pot their battery, just the batter by unplugging it, to have a spare I have to buy the entire pack for $50 when I know it only has a 2300 mAh battery in it. 2300 vs 3400 is a huge runtime difference.


----------



## HistoryChannel

It doesn't bother you how they set up the Nao's battery system?


----------



## Dirtbasher

uk_caver said:


> While I'm sure that economics may well play a part in the thought process, the consumer market for loose 18650s really isn't mature, and that might be enough on its own to make many manufacturers wary.
> 
> Where I live, I'm highly unlikely to find 18650s at any retail outlet, and if I buy any mail order, legally speaking they should be couriered to me since the Royal Mail declines to ship them.
> Even here (let alone in many other countries) while I may be able to find the odd national supplier, most suppliers I could find will be overseas, with other shipping restrictions attached.
> 
> That's not exactly a fantastic environment to launch a consumer-level product into which takes bare cells.
> At the moment, 18650s are rather niche products.
> You and I know about them, where to get them, what to buy and not to buy, but few average consumers have a clue.
> 
> It is a bit of a chicken-and-egg situation, but unless/until quality cells are readily available, with brand names a consumer doesn't have to research first on the internet, it's hard to see many non-niche lights being made to run solely on loose 18650s (18650/2xCR123 lights maybe being a borderline case).
> 
> If/when there are Duracell 18650s on the high street, then I think it would be completely fair to call out a manufacturer for having proprietary cells for a single-cell light, rather than just partially understandable.



I tend to agree , here in Africa , you cannot just walk into a shop and get a 18650 , you have to look for specialist gadget shops or guns shop that sell Tac lights.

However , I want to buy the Nao, but this battery limitation is what turned me off, because the light will need a new battery in 2-3 years , it means another $50 , which I think is an issue, stores don't stock these accessories due to shelf life, so it's a special order and this overpriced light will just sit there , unless you do the battery hack.


----------



## uk_caver

HistoryChannel said:


> Then Petzl should have made the Nao with a 3x AA battery case option. They went proprietary 18650 battery pack for a reason.


The went 18650 for _one or more reasons_.
Reasons could include size, weight, style.



HistoryChannel said:


> Maybe they should at least sell the 18650 with their special circuit board separately. It just bugs me that even though I can pop pot their battery, just the batter by unplugging it, to have a spare I have to buy the entire pack for $50 when I know it only has a 2300 mAh battery in it. 2300 vs 3400 is a huge runtime difference.


Possibly one issue with the case is that given their charging-via-USB design, if they did sell cell+connector separately, then they'd probably have to sell a separate (USB?) charger.
It would be a bit crap if they sold you a spare cell where the only way of charging it was to swap it into a part of the light which you needed in order to use the light.
The existing connector setup might have to be rather more butch if the user was expected to be swapping cells in and out of the case on a regular basis, and carrying spare cells around stuffed into a rucksack.
I'd suggest that if they were going to go down that road, about the only logical place to stop would be a case designed for use with a holder for loose cells (and therefore a case designed for frequent user opening in field situations), rather than occasional opening for failed-cell replacement.

I'd certainly agree that the capacity does seem disappointing, especially given the pricing.
I wouldn't be surprised if they brought out an uprated battery at some point, but that point would probably be after they've shifted most/all of the 2300s.



HistoryChannel said:


> It doesn't bother you how they set up the Nao's battery system?


It doesn't _personally_ bother me since they're not hiding anything and I'm fairly unlikely to buy one - I'm quite happy with my various manual-control twin-beam headlamps.
I'd expect that if the automatic control does work well, it will start to appear on various other lights, including ones powered by mainstream cells.


----------



## Solscud007

uk_caver said:


> Possibly one issue with the case is that given their charging-via-USB design, if they did sell cell+connector separately, then they'd probably have to sell a separate (USB?) charger.
> It would be a bit crap if they sold you a spare cell where the only way of charging it was to swap it into a part of the light which you needed in order to use the light.




This is false. The current design already causes issues. Once the battery is drained in the pack, you have to unplug it and charge the pack. During that few hour charge time, the light is completely useless. 

As History channel suggested, they could have easily put the chip inside the battery pack and built metal leads for an 18650 to be dropped in, then they could just buy 18650s and slap their name on it, like it is now. Then they make a statement, like SureFire, to not use cells other than their brand.

it is really annoying how they screw the owners over on this. They over complicated this system.


----------



## uk_caver

Solscud007 said:


> This is false. The current design already causes issues. Once the battery is drained in the pack, you have to unplug it and charge the pack. During that few hour charge time, the light is completely useless.


I don't think you quite followed my logic, quite possibly due to lack of clarity on my part.
I wasn't talking about the existing situation where someone only has a single cell/battery pack.

I was pointing out that selling the cell+internal connector without a battery back around it would have a particular issue in that when _either_ cell was being charged, the light would be useless.

For someone to be able to charge-while-using (or charge more than one cell at a time) in that scenario, they'd either need a second battery case to act as a charger, or some separate proprietary charger with appropriate connector (or a suitably built/modified third-party charger).



Solscud007 said:


> As History channel suggested, they could have easily put the chip inside the battery pack and built metal leads for an 18650 to be dropped in, then they could just buy 18650s and slap their name on it, like it is now. Then they make a statement, like SureFire, to not use cells other than their brand.


_As I said_, if they were going to sell any less-than-complete setup for use as an active spare (rather than replacement for worn cell) a holder would seem to be more logical/useful than selling a spare cell+connector, since charging and use could easily happen in parallel, as could charging multiple cells.



Solscud007 said:


> it is really annoying how they screw the owners over on this. They over complicated this system.


It could depend to some extent on how they got to where they are.
Their previous lithium products do seem to have been multi-cell ones, where it is maybe more understandable that proprietary packs would be attractive for reasons of cell balance, as well as things like ease of sealing for weatherproofing, having a known level of protection for cells, etc.
That seems to be the way that most high-end headlamps from other manufacturers have worked in the past.
Even going single-cell, they might be expected to stay with that approach unless there was some particular strong reason to change.

Ignoring the price for a moment, someone _could_ take the view that their approach is the least _complicated_ from a user's point of view - each cell is packaged in a waterproof (weatherproof?) housing, which can be recharged in a whole host of places, from mains or vehicle power, without the need for a dedicated lithium charger, via a cheap USB power supply (or suitable PC/netbook/TV, etc).
Cost aside, arguably a replaceable cell arrangement would only be 'better' for people who were already existing 18650 users (which group probably overlaps little with expected Nao buyers) who already had and used chargers and had a use for cells in multiple pieces of equipment.
Seems to me that the main issue for most likely buyers is the cost of the replacements, not the convenience.

I'd wonder what their market research (if any) suggested the likely breakdown of users was as far as how many spare packs people might be likely to buy is concerned?


----------



## HistoryChannel

I think we are all over complicating this. The bottom line is if they wanted to, Petzl could have put the circuit board in the battery case and have the battery pop in and out like with their Tikka series. 

They have just the 18650 Petzl battery with circuit board listed as an accessory, but when I contacted Perzl they told me via email they currently do no and have no plans in the near future to sell just that part. Why not sell just the battery? It's frustrating as an owner of this thing, I probably wouldn't care if I didn't own it, but I thought I would be able to buy spare batteries separately due to it being listed as an accessory with a part number. Now they tell me it's not available. 

So I ended up cutting and hacking it up anyway so I can use my own battery adding another $17 to the Nao price just to make it better. (3400 mAh vs 2300 mAh is better). 

Don't get me wrong. I love the Nao in its functionality. I just have a complaint with how they designed their proprietary battery pack for no other obvious reason other than profit. 

As it stands now if I want to carry 2 spare batteries (without modifying) I would have to spend $100 and carry 2 whole packs instead of just 2 18650s. It's really my only gripe. Other than that the Nao is great.


----------



## TSellers

When reading through the pros and cons listed above I couldn't help but wonder how relevant any of this discussion may be in 6 months or so. So now we are seeing a 1000 lumen flashlight that you can choose your tint, uses the latest emitters, drivers, non proprietary 18650 batteries and sells for $60.00. It is programmable via Bluetooth, and a free iPhone or Android app, so I have to wonder how long before a series of headlamps follow that offer the same or even better features such as remote control or voice control. I still have some Petzl's that took incandescent bulbs in my drawer, and I fear that in a matter of months from now, the NAO will be about as contemporary as my Petzl's, and very soon you'll see them getting liquidated at bargain basement prices because no-one will really want them.


----------



## HistoryChannel

True about the part lights with feature overload is everywhere. But technology that is rock solid and reliable tend to move slowly. I have tons of 1000+ lumen Chinese made cheap lights like Eagletac, Nitecore, Fenix etc with a gazillion modes but when I NEED the light to work I still always take Surefire handhelds and Petzl headlamps. The other lights I have are neat to EDC or play around with. When I see a hardcore caver or an caving expedition, I see Petzl 9 times out of 10. And I consider myself a pretty hardcore climber/mountaineer. Kinda like we see SF lights mounted on our soldiers guns, not UltraFire with 7 modes. 

I wouldn't worry about the Nao getting outdated soon, its already been 10 months since its been released last year. Although I am close to getting their Ultra Rush Belt. I wish the battery was cross compatible. But it's not. Ugh. Lol.


----------



## Ggmesquita

Today I came across with this: http://store.enerdan.de/gb/li-ion-cells/enerpower-3100-fur-tomtom-gps.html I really have no idea if it would be a direct replacement or not. At least the plug looks the same.
How could we know for sure?


----------



## TSellers

Not sure why you'd want to pay about $25.00 USD for a good battery with a 50 cent connector on it, when you could get the same battery elsewhere for about $9.00?



> I have tons of 1000+ lumen Chinese made cheap lights like Eagletac, Nitecore, Fenix



Wow, you have an amazing collection of lights, would be great to see a picture of them all. I guess it makes my cheap Chinese and DIY lights, drivers and emitters, look pretty pedestrian by comparison.


----------



## uk_caver

Ggmesquita said:


> Today I came across with this: http://store.enerdan.de/gb/li-ion-cells/enerpower-3100-fur-tomtom-gps.html I really have no idea if it would be a direct replacement or not. At least the plug looks the same.
> How could we know for sure?


Looking at the pictures in the first page of this thread, the connector seems to be at least half as wide as an 18650.
Looking the the pictures of the linked Tomtom cell, the connector seems to be about 1/3 of the width of an 18650, and it doesn't seem like optical effects (poor angles, etc) could account for that if the connectors are actually the same.


----------



## Ggmesquita

TSellers said:


> Not sure why you'd want to pay about $25.00 USD for a good battery with a 50 cent connector on it, when you could get the same battery elsewhere for about $9.00?
> 
> 
> 
> Wow, you have an amazing collection of lights, would be great to see a picture of them all. I guess it makes my cheap Chinese and DIY lights, drivers and emitters, look pretty pedestrian by comparison.



Simply put, it's because, according to other users, if you simply buy a new cell and find a way to fit it in, the battery level indicator will not work. Plus, it is still not clear to me, in the original NAO battery, if the protection circuit stays with the battery, or in the battery holder's. So a direct replacement that works would be nice since Petzl is not selling just the battery.

Regarding the connector, guess uk_caver is right. Looking closely it does seem different. Still, if the electronics does work (including charle level indicator) I would still consider ir (changing only the connector).

I've also bought the 100K ohm thermistor suggested earlier and I will definately try to mod mine so it will accept any 18650.
Can anyone please tell me if on the original setup the battery protection circuit stays with the battery, or in the battery holder's?


Hey, uk_caver and Szemhazai, what do you guys have to say about this? Are you using protected or unprotected batteries after the mod?

Thanks guys!
Gg


----------



## TSellers

That connector is a Molex 5264-3P and is available on eBay for about $3.00 or less. The charge indicator needs to recognize that you are using a rechargeable battery rather than the ALkaline option, so you'd need to add a NTC Thermistor to the Batteries PCB, or may be easier to buy an unprotected 18650 battery, your own PCB, and add the thermistor and Molex connector. Personally, I'd forget about the charge indicator and always leave home with a fresh charge and a couple of spares in my pack. If the charge indicator was that critical then I'd go with another choice of headlamp.


----------



## Ggmesquita

Tsellers, thank you for your input. as I said, I will perform this mod and building my own battery (with a 3400 cell) is what I am aiming for. That Enerpower battery was posted just for curiosity's sake.
I would like to be able to keep the charge level indicator. Just because I think it is a nice feature.
Now I think I know where the thermistor is to be added (Szemhazai actualy put it on the pack's PCB).


----------



## Szemhazai

Actually there are two protection circuits :devil:. One is on the cell and the second one is on the PCB inside the battery holder - so you don't need to put the extra PCB on the cell.


----------



## TSellers

> so you don't need to put the extra PCB on the cell



Makes sense. As well, single cell use seems to be considered fairly safe compared to series, and there'd be more room available to work with seating a single unprotected cell.


----------



## Ggmesquita

Yeah, that is great news! Thanks Szemhazai.
I will definitely use an unprotected cell to save some space.
The only thing I am having trouble with now is finding some store that will ship that quality 18650 holder from Keystone you used to Brazil for a fair price. Digikey will charge 40 USD  
Do you have any suggestion? Do you know of any other good quality one that will fit?

Thanks a lot!
Gg


----------



## GulfCoastToad

This headlamp looks amazing. I am wanting something for hunting and blood tracking, and it would be an understatement to say it'd be useful to have the light vary brightnesses and focus levels depending upon where it's pointed. This is a CONSTANT issue during our outings. Guess I'll start a new piggy bank called NAO.


----------



## TSellers

@GulfCoastToad: I couldn't help but notice you mentioned 'blood tracking'. For that you'd best consider adding another light to the piggy bank fund, a UV light in the range of 360nm to 380nm. I've found a few of the inexpensive ones that only cost about $12.00 in the higher UV range of 395-405nm, but apparently they are not as suitable for curing resin (my need), or tracking blood (your need). If you manage to find anything that is available from offshore sellers pls update.


----------



## chanrobi

HistoryChannel said:


> I think we are all over complicating this. The bottom line is if they wanted to, Petzl could have put the circuit board in the battery case and have the battery pop in and out like with their Tikka series.
> 
> They have just the 18650 Petzl battery with circuit board listed as an accessory, but when I contacted Perzl they told me via email they currently do no and have no plans in the near future to sell just that part. Why not sell just the battery? It's frustrating as an owner of this thing, I probably wouldn't care if I didn't own it, but I thought I would be able to buy spare batteries separately due to it being listed as an accessory with a part number. Now they tell me it's not available.
> 
> So I ended up cutting and hacking it up anyway so I can use my own battery adding another $17 to the Nao price just to make it better. (3400 mAh vs 2300 mAh is better).
> 
> Don't get me wrong. I love the Nao in its functionality. I just have a complaint with how they designed their proprietary battery pack for no other obvious reason other than profit.
> 
> As it stands now if I want to carry 2 spare batteries (without modifying) I would have to spend $100 and carry 2 whole packs instead of just 2 18650s. It's really my only gripe. Other than that the Nao is great.



Would you be so kind to share your expertise in a how-to perhaps? I would love to be able to swap in 18650's, even if I have to modify them myself. 3400 mah vs 2300 mah is very attractive. I'd rather not have to buy 2 x $50 battery pods for that...


----------



## Szemhazai

Go to the post #1 and to the review on my website - there is everything you need.


----------



## chanrobi

Szemhazai said:


> Go to the post #1 and to the review on my website - there is everything you need.



Thank you. 

I think I would need more of a step by step as I can solder, but only very basic circuits...


----------



## Szemhazai

Some people have some hard time finding the Molex plug so here are links to the digikey:
Molex plug : http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/0050375033/WM18874-ND/280419
Molex pins : http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/0039000160/WM9661CT-ND/3904983
Thermistor : http://www.digikey.com/product-search/en?mpart=192-104QET-A01&vendor=480

Good luck with your nao hacks - but for the beginners I strongly suggest to make a spare cell instead of making the battery pack 18650 compatibile.


----------



## Ggmesquita

Szemhazai said:


> Good luck with your nao hacks - but for the beginners I strongly suggest to make a spare cell instead of making the battery pack 18650 compatibile.



You said it, Szemhazai! That is a great advice. I am having so much trouble trying to fit that 18650 holder inside the pack, I'm going crazy.
I've reviwed your pictures a hundred times and I still can't believe you were able to fit the holder and the PCB in there just like that. Maybe the holder from keystone you are using is a lot thinner / shorter than the one I'm using, I don't know. From what I can see, once you put the holder in there, there is no space left whatsoever. And that is WITHOUT the PCB!  The lid simply won't close.

I am having such a hard time, that I pretty much gave up. I will simply put some tabs on the new 3400mAH battery using contact weld, solder wires to it and let it RIP.
As I said earlier, I couldn't find a single store that will ship the 18650 holder form keystone to Brazil for a sane price...

Good luck guys, I'm sure this mod is worth it. I just love the NAO so much!

The next mod I'm am going to try is replacing the original cool XP-Gs for neutral XP-G2s. But I am still perfecting my reflow skills and I still don't feel safe doing it...


----------



## Low_Speed

I just got mine today and the first thing that I noticed was that there's no carrying pouch to put this thing in. I only paid $123.00 for mine but as expensive as it is, it should come with a pouch.


----------



## carrot

Low_Speed said:


> I just got mine today and the first thing that I noticed was that there's no carrying pouch to put this thing in. I only paid $123.00 for mine but as expensive as it is, it should come with a pouch.



What headlamp comes with a pouch? I just dump mine into a zippered pocket on my pack with everything else.


----------



## Low_Speed

carrot said:


> What headlamp comes with a pouch? I just dump mine into a zippered pocket on my pack with everything else.



My LED Lenser did.


----------



## Low_Speed

I have to say that I try to take good care of all of my stuff. It would be nice for the manufacturers to help you take as much care of you equipment as possible. I have been reading about people who have had problems with their LED Lenser headlamps failing on them and I bet that they take as much care of their lights as you do.


----------



## Low_Speed

Tonight was the first time that I was able to really use my Nao and I must agree with everyone that has complained about the battery situation. I guess I have to play with the settings a little but going on a 5 mile walk with the Hiking profile in 1 1/2 hours my battery was at 50%. This light would be way better if it didn't use a proprietary battery system but I do like it enough to keep it as an EDC light.

Does anyone know how long the battery last on standby?


----------



## carrot

Low_Speed said:


> I have to say that I try to take good care of all of my stuff. It would be nice for the manufacturers to help you take as much care of you equipment as possible. I have been reading about people who have had problems with their LED Lenser headlamps failing on them and I bet that they take as much care of their lights as you do.


I think that we probably have different needs and expectations of our things.

Honestly, keeping my lights and other things clean and scratch-free is the last thing on my mind...









Had I known the NAO was fine for caving prior to that trip I would have taken it instead.

As for the battery drain on standby, it seems to be low enough that I've never noticed. I took my NAO backpacking for 8 days and used it a bunch, but it still had two bars of juice at the end of the trip. I carried a USB Solar/Li-Poly charger with me in case I needed it but I never did. 

I think if you tweak the output settings to your taste you will have better battery life.


----------



## Low_Speed

carrot said:


> I think that we probably have different needs and expectations of our things.
> 
> Honestly, keeping my lights and other things clean and scratch-free is the last thing on my mind...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Had I known the NAO was fine for caving prior to that trip I would have taken it instead.
> 
> As for the battery drain on standby, it seems to be low enough that I've never noticed. I took my NAO backpacking for 8 days and used it a bunch, but it still had two bars of juice at the end of the trip. I carried a USB Solar/Li-Poly charger with me in case I needed it but I never did.
> 
> I think if you tweak the output settings to your taste you will have better battery life.



You may be right about needs and expectations. I haven't gotten into caving but I'd like to.

Thanks for advice and your pictures look cool.


----------



## uk_caver

Though I rarely use 'mainstream' headlamps underground (apart from the occasional Duo, which I guess was probably designed at least in part with underground use in mind), I still expect my surface headlamps to take a fair amount of abuse and don't give them any special thought as far as gentle treatment is concerned.


----------



## Ggmesquita

Low_Speed said:


> Tonight was the first time that I was able to really use my Nao and I must agree with everyone that has complained about the battery situation. I guess I have to play with the settings a little but going on a 5 mile walk with the Hiking profile in 1 1/2 hours my battery was at 50%. This light would be way better if it didn't use a proprietary battery system but I do like it enough to keep it as an EDC light.
> 
> Does anyone know how long the battery last on standby?



There is one factor that affects the battery life a LOT and that is the angle you select, because of the reactive lighting.
Try to set an angle that is just high enough for the light to illuminate the area in front of you. If you set a too high angle, the light will run much brighter than you really need it to.
I think this is even written on the manual if I remember correctly.

Also, the battery pack mod suggested by Szemhazai is the way to go. you get 800mAH more if you go with the 3400mAH cell.

Gg


----------



## cwclimbs

I have one of these lamps and have been using it for maybe a year now. My application is climbing, for which I have found no better substitute. Quality aside, nothing beats the reactive lighting on this thing for looking between close and distant objects seamlessly and hands-free. More light or more run time would of course be useful, but practically speaking that feature is what sells this lamp for me.

As for the negatives, the obvious one is price and cost vs quality. The case is cheap plastic and the light feels a bit flimsy. When I left mine with a friend and needed him to mail it to me, it broke in shipping (part of the bezel on the lamp cracked and came off). I was able to return it to REI and pick up a new one, so clearly I still like it enough to own one. I agree that it's "priced like a lexus" without the quality, but what are the other options out there for its features? Does Petzl have a patent on the reactive lighting thing? I don't see anyone else doing this and it looks like they will be offering it in their smaller headlamps soon:

http://www.earnyourturns.com/18423/summer-or-2013-headlamp-roundup/

I'm also curious about battery replacement options. I bought a spare pack for this thing (yeah, it's pricey) but always love to tinker and would have fun building a bigger pack. Too bad the 4-pin round connector that goes to the front of the lamp is probably hard to find. For "only" $30 I would probably want to get the belt kit and attach that to a custom battery box.

Unrelated: if anyone can help me make a regulated 3v-3.3v Li-Ion high-capacity power source for a different project, that would be awesome. I have a 5v to 3.3v circuit that I was going to use for powering a camera from a USB port, but think doing it with batteries would be more useful and folks on this forum seem to have that particular expertise.


----------



## Bullzeyebill

cwclimbs said:


> Unrelated: if anyone can help me make a regulated 3v-3.3v Li-Ion high-capacity power source for a different project, that would be awesome. I have a 5v to 3.3v circuit that I was going to use for powering a camera from a USB port, but think doing it with batteries would be more useful and folks on this forum seem to have that particular expertise.



Please start your own thread re this question. Thanks,

Bill


----------



## Esko

I have not been too much interested in Nao due to various reasons (most importantly the proprietary battery issue). However, I just got a second-hand Nao with the extension cable for €30, so, it looks like I'll soon be joining the Nao group, too.

The light has not arrived yet but I am sure that there will be some kind of battery hacks ahead. I have some questions.

First of all, I would like to add the ability to use generic 18650 batteries but I would also like to keep the board untouched. And I like the battery indicator. The battery connector has three wires. Did I understand it right (looking at the pictures and texts in Szemhazai's page, link in first post) that the thermistor can be connected between two of these wires and after that, there is no need for anything else than just to connect the battery and everything works? Ie. one could attach the thermistor to the connector thus eliminating the third wire? I am thinking that after that, the two other leads could be attached to small magnets (wires attached in a way that the magnets cant touch each other) and the light should work fine. Good idea? Or not? The 2*AAA contacts should probably be covered, too.

Another question. It looks like the connector that connects the battery pack to the light has 4 pins. Is there really 4 different wires connected? Or just 2 with double connections? I'd also like to know if the battery pack electronics are essential when using the light? I doubt that I have any need for a bigger diy battery pack for this light but since I'll have the extension cable, some day I might be interested in that possibility, too.


----------



## Ggmesquita

Hello Esko,
IMO, after using the NAO in a real world scenario, you will not regret it.
As for your questions, Szemhazai is THE guy to get your answers from, but I fell that I can answer some of them correctly:

- In order to use a generic 18650 you will need to fit a 18650 holder inside the pack's case (you cold try the magnet solution, which would save space, but I just don't trust it) but there is very little space for that. Szemhazai used one form Keystone... Oh, and you will have to get rid of the AAA holder. That's for sure (at least if you go with the holder idea). IMO this is the most difficult part of the mod. I just couldn't do it with the holder I was able to aquire. So I am going with the tabs soldered to battery solutuion. 

- Yes, in order to get the battery level indicator to work, all you gave to do is add the thermistor between the black and the middle wires and you are good to go. You can then eliminate the third wire

- Yes, I think the light needs the battery pack's electronics to function correctly, as the software is able to read and write information to the battery pack. 

The next thing I am going to do is reflowing 2 219s to replace the stock cool XP-Gs. I am just waitting for the emmiters to arrive 

Good luck!
Gg


----------



## chanrobi

I dont understand why they went cool ehite instead of neutral?

Actually i dont understand why any lights are cool white, color rendition is important in a headlamp?


----------



## Esko

chanrobi said:


> I dont understand why they went cool ehite instead of neutral?
> 
> Actually i dont understand why any lights are cool white, color rendition is important in a headlamp?



Color temperature and color rendition are different subjects... You could check the led section for more information. There are plenty of reasons why most manufacturers use cool white (lumen race, availability, history, some consumer opinions etc.). Of course many educated users like us prefer neutral white and then it can be debated whether NW is enough or it should be high cri, too... :shrug:

Thanks Ggmesquita. Once I get the light, I need to check the 18650 holder possibilities. The space is really an issue, but if Shemhazai managed to do it, others should, too. I have never used magnets with batteries but I can't see any reason why it shouldn't work well. Unless they have some negative effects on said batteries/protection circuits (I recall seeing some discussion about it). The magnets could also be secured with a thin&wide rubber band. Battery changes would be rather rare, too. Most of the time one fully charged battery would provide plenty enough of power. 

I am mainly going to use it in all running related activities. I have some Zebras and Sparks; they are nice but the headbands are not steady enough for me.

One other thing. The seller said that in freezing conditions, the light turned off after just 15 minutes of use. Was there ever a battery change program as he remembers, or were these issues fixed with a software update? I didn't find any news about battery recalls.

Nichia 219 sounds really tempting... And I have a few of them already, just waiting for use. Too bad that they would have to be soldered to the driver board. I think I miss some skills and also the will to take the risk of trying. Myo XP was a lot easier to mod... Btw, that Myo XP was the original reason to register to CPF back in 2008. The headlamps wire had a shortcut in my bike bag back in 2007 (I think), causing a fire hazard. Later I found out (in this board), that Petzl put out an warning saying that the light shouldn't be used with Ni-MH any more.


----------



## Szemhazai

As for the temperatures...
6 hours in -8*C
14 hours in -2*C (cell change after 11 hours).
Works fine for me, never heard about any battery issue for this headlamp. 

If you are not going to change cells often, then I suggest to make yourself a spare cell - it's much easier.


----------



## Esko

Szemhazai said:


> As for the temperatures...
> 6 hours in -8*C
> 14 hours in -2*C (cell change after 11 hours).
> Works fine for me, newer heard about any battery issue for this headlamp.
> 
> If you are not going to change cells often, then I suggest to make yourself a spare cell - it's much easier.



Looks like I didn't remember it correctly and needed to check some older (local) discussions... Another person had bought 2 Petzl Naos and in -14*C, both of them lost their reactive lighting in 5 minutes, followed by a the loss of all light a few minutes later. The seller himself mentioned that during a 30 min run, it already started to give the low battery warning and the battery indicator had only one bar left. There were also mentions about battery changes. Perhaps it is just that they had one bad batch of batteries locally, so, I'll contact the local importer. Those discusions happened almost a year ago.

I prefer the the ability to use generic cells. The possible battery changes will probably happen in situations where I would also have a backup light and it would be good if all batteries are interchangeable. For example, some 2 years ago I took part in one rogaining event. I used my ST6 and had a spare cell for it - the cell was inside my lightest 18650 flashlight which acted as a backup. My partners headlamp broke and I gave him the flashlight. It wouldn't have been possible if I had Nao and a proprietary spare cell for it.


----------



## clockclimb

You must use the battery case to interface with any battery pack you build. You *cannot* just interface directly with the 4 wire plug that detaches from the battery case. The original poster made this clear and I have verified it to be true. Your custom battery pack can plug into the 3 wire battery plug or into the AAA contacts, no difference. The NTC thermistor is needed only to allow the usb case to charge your battery. Petzl uses it as a heat sensor. It will not make the battery indicator work properly.

 Here is an excerpt of another persons review from Amazon:

 I liked the fact that you can easily remove the lithium cell from the battery case to cut down on weight when carrying spares. The battery level metering does not appear to be based on the battery output, but duration of use between charges, as recorded by electronics within the casing. This means that when you swap a discharged lithium cell out of the plastic battery case, and replace it with a fully charged cell, the battery case will tell you that the fresh battery is low in charge and will even give the flashing warning (emitters pulse 3 times when battery gets low). The light will continue to perform for the expected duration, but you cannot get any indication of the true state of charge. The converse happens when you return an empty cell to the original plastic casing it was charged in. That empty cell will be read as full by the battery meter even though it is not. This is not so smart, but fortunately the meter resets when you next recharge the battery.


----------



## TSellers

I wonder how it would affect the reactive lighting if you were able to swap a T3 warm white emitter into it? As the lower wavelengths reflect back less, presumably it would dim less perhaps?


----------



## Tyni Tyres

I have a NAO and I'm thinking of making an external battery pack for CR123 or maybe AA cells for 'off grid' use. Anyone know the max voltage that can safely be fed to the terminals in the battery holder? On ebay there are 3.7V output DC-DC converters which accept 8V-20V in. I was thinking of using one of these with a string of 4 CR123 cells. Is this a reasonable approach? Or would it be safe to use, say 2 parallel strings of 2 CR123 with no voltage regulator? I tried powering the lamp at a bit below 3V and the reactive lighting feature tends to cut out, so a number of parallel CR123s would not work well specially in cold temperatures.


----------



## clockclimb

You cannot use voltage higher than 4.2 volts. The light boost the 3 volts from 2 AAA batteries but it does not buck regulate. You will burn it out if you exceed 4.2 volts. You can make your external pack from 18650 batteries in parallel. You might even get away with 3 AA batteries in series if they are ni-mh. This would be somewhat dicey since the full charge voltage would be 4.5 volts. Using cr123 batteries in series would require voltage regulation.


----------



## clockclimb

Szemhazai - Thanks for your excellent instructions on making molex connectors etc. Very useful, I have made a number of batteries with connectors. l've even made a battery pack that plugs into a power jack added to the bottom of the usb case. I see that you added your 100k thermistor internally. When you change batteries how do you keep the headlamp from giving you low battery warning flashes? The headlamp also reduces power when it thinks the battery should be low. The only way I know to avoid the problem is to not have the 100k thermistor in place. Then the headlamp thinks I'm using disposable AAA batteries. Thanks, Jordan


----------



## uk_caver

It would seem very unlikely that a controller/driver designed to run from up to 4.2V would die with an input voltage of 3x fully charged NiMH cells, or even from AA alkalines.

If someone was being ultra-paranoid, it wouldn't be hard to wire a schottky diode in series with a 3-cell pack to waste a few hundred millivolts.

As far as strings of CR123 cells go, maybe especially in the case of emergency usage with long-stored cells, there's some argument for avoiding series use for safety reasons with mismatched cells, possibly particularly in the case where there is no specifically-tuned low voltage cutoff circuitry.


----------



## zirit

Good morning,

First I'm sorry but my english is very bad. I'm a spanish trail runner. In Catalonia, Pirineus.

I'm interested in buying headlight NAO. I would like to modify it to be able to mount a more capacity battery. Is it possible to install this model of 5000 mah?

http://www.miniinthebox.com/es/singfire-sf-002b-5000mah-18650-4pacs-3-7-v_p702769.html


Thank you very much for your answers.


----------



## sirpetr

5000mAh is not real number, its false. Highest cell now available is 3400mAh Panasonic NCR18650B. But you can use two of them and wire them in parallel, but then you also need new battery case to accomodate 2 cells.


----------



## zirit

Thank you very much for the answer. I will buy the panasonic battery.

I have some questions:

1-To work the new battery I need to install the thermistor in the connector plate?

2-Where this piece is connected? Http: // www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/0039000160/WM9661CT-ND/3904983

3-Is It necessary to buy this piece? Http: // www.fasttech.com/products/1030/10003003/1225101-wh-18650b-2a-protective-circuit-board-for-18650-re

Or is it necessary extracted from the 2.300 mah Petzl battery and install in the new 3.400 mah?

Thanks and excuse me for the inconveniences.


----------



## zirit

Good afternoon again,

Nobody helps me please?

Thanks!


----------



## TSellers

zirit,

I may not understand correctly, perhaps you need those PCB's to be outside your battery? Otherwise these cells from the same supplier and recommended above, are available with the PCB already integrated: http://www.fasttech.com/products/0/10001980/1141104-panasonic-ncr18650b-protected-rechargeable


----------



## zirit

Thank you very much for your answer Tsellers!

I will buy the battery that you indicate me.

A last question, how can I connect the cables inside the battery? One in the positive pole, and the other in the negative pole? And the third cable?


----------



## TSellers

As you can't really solder to those batteries, and magnets will slide off, probably have to insert it into a carrier. Although FT does also sell carriers with protection circuits built into them (which in turn would allow you to use the unprotected version of the NCR18650B), I assume that is not going to be an option for the project that you are working on.

THis light has been around so long now and getting so long in the tooth, I'm wondering if something else with a better CRI Index for trail running has not come along to replace it by now? If so, then perhaps you wouldn't need to go to all the trouble and expense of Frankenstein Modding this model.


----------



## zirit

Ok TSellers,

Thank you very much! Regards!


----------



## TSellers

FWIW, I use 2 lights for the trail at night. To see the trail at my feet and all around, I use a flood lens that is mounted on my hip belt (a SPark SD6 with Flood lens and a T3 XM-L2 emitter). On my head I normally use a spot lens with a T4 emitter (I have several, but my normal go-to is a Spark ST6). I installed both the T3 and T4's myself because I prefer the higher CRI of those BIN's for rocky trails. If I need to search in the trees above for something (part of what my job entails), then I'll have a flashlight with a T5 emitter on my hip as well. I have found that the T3 does the best in fog, heavy snow, and rain, especially when it is mounted low, like on your hip.


----------



## zirit

Tsellers, you use other models for trail running.

Don't recommend the Nao to run?


----------



## ZoKoNAO

*Attaching CREE LEDs on NAO PCB*

Hi,

I have bought CREE XP-G2 5W Netural White 3900-4500K to replace it in my NAO:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/10pcs-lot-CREE-XP-G2-5W-Neutral-White-3900-4500K-20mm-Star-PCB-/261402070533

Does somebody can tell me how original CREE LEDs are attached on the PCB board of NAO lamp, were they soldered or glued somehow, and how Szemhazai has attached CREE LEDs on the PCB?
I would like that you reply so I can avoid possible damage :shakehead

Thanx in advance.


----------



## TSellers

*Re: Attaching CREE LEDs on NAO PCB*



> Don't recommend the Nao to run?



Many people enjoy using that model, and swear by it. I don't want to start a diatribe about one light being better than another. In my case I prefer the higher CRI of other LED Bin's, and I found it very easy to upgrade the Spark LED's to T3 and T4 emitters, while at the same time, not having to go through the hassle of doing MOD's to increase battery capacity. And as I noted, I have found it's better to have 2 lights than just one, so even if I had a NAO on my head, I'd still want a flood on my hip (the trail I use daily goes up a mountain, 650m elevation gain over 5km, and for the uphill portion all I often use is just the flood, and then use both on the descent). As I often encounter rapid changes in environmental conditions, I do not see reactive lighting to be a benefit, in my opinion it is an annoyance, but again, many people enthusiastically disagree with that, so YMMV. The NAO has been around a long time now, and to me (but not others mind you) it is an over priced product that offers trailing edge features.



> Does somebody can tell me how original CREE LEDs are attached on the PCB board



Reflow soldering skill techniques are typically what you do to remove and replace LED's from stars. There are lots of posts outlining people's favourite ways of doing it in this forum. In my case I was lucky to have been given a labratory hot plate which, along with an IR temperature gun, has served me well for putting emitters onto copper based stars.


----------



## zirit

*Re: Attaching CREE LEDs on NAO PCB*

Thanks again TSellers!


----------



## TSellers

*Re: Attaching CREE LEDs on NAO PCB*

You're welcome, pls update us with what you decide to do in the end.


----------



## ZoKoNAO

TSellers, thank you so much.

I have wanted to make LED modification at home, but it seems it is better to bring it to some electronic service where they do the professional reflow soldering for a few euros.

I am happy because I will upgrade my NAO lamp for a small amount of money changing CREE LEDs with newer and making a spare batteries. Regarding that I had bought it brand new for EUR 60 from somebody who didn't need it, it was great deal for sure.

Huge greetings to everybody here!


----------



## ThreeStripes

Can two or four 18650s be successfully used in parallel to create a custom battery pack? I would love to have an extended-length burn time on the NAO without having to carry Petzl's overpriced proprietary pack or extra 3400mah cells.


----------



## cue003

ThreeStripes said:


> Can two or four 18650s be successfully used in parallel to create a custom battery pack? I would love to have an extended-length burn time on the NAO without having to carry Petzl's overpriced proprietary pack or extra 3400mah cells.



Petzl is going to upgrade the Nao in July to have 575 lumens and a longer runtime. You may want to checkout the updates that are coming. Just search google for Petzl Nao 575 and you will see the info on various sites including petzl very own site.


----------



## Ggmesquita

Hey CUE, GREAT news!
Can't wait to see what's under the hood!
Just love mine and it will be great to have an improved version.
Just when I thought Petzl was going too slow with the reactive lighting...


----------



## cue003

Ggmesquita said:


> Hey CUE, GREAT news!
> Can't wait to see what's under the hood!
> Just love mine and it will be great to have an improved version.
> Just when I thought Petzl was going too slow with the reactive lighting...



The new model Nao is now out and in some stores. It hasn't showed up at REI or EMS yet for me to purchase so I am still waiting to check it out and possibly purchase it. I have been enjoying the Petzl RXP and R+ headlamps so far. I have tested them against almost all of my other goto headlamps that I own and keep coming back to the multiple beam patterns (Petzl RXP and XP and soon to be purchased NAO) that work independently as well as together with a separate spot light to have the best of both worlds. It has to be experienced, I think, to get the full gist of what I am getting at. Those that own a Nao or Petzl RXP or XP or maybe some of the caving lights would know what I am getting at. There needs to be more lights on the market that gave the multiple beams that work independently or together at "affordable" prices.


----------



## hongchai90

Hi Folks,

Is good to know that there is this Petzl Nao user in this forum .
I'm getting mine soon but is the first version of Nao as i don't need high lumens on trail running but long hour battery is a must ..
If i want to mod a extra battery pack from 18650, as i know from this thread Molex 5264-3P and 18650 batt.
for 18650 should i get the protected batt or unprotected later modded in with the NTC Thermistor for the protection purpose ..

your reply is much appreciated.


----------



## cue003

hongchai90 said:


> Hi Folks,
> 
> Is good to know that there is this Petzl Nao user in this forum .
> I'm getting mine soon but is the first version of Nao as i don't need high lumens on trail running but long hour battery is a must ..
> If i want to mod a extra battery pack from 18650, as i know from this thread Molex 5264-3P and 18650 batt.
> for 18650 should i get the protected batt or unprotected later modded in with the NTC Thermistor for the protection purpose ..
> 
> your reply is much appreciated.




I am interested in this answer/mod as well.


----------



## Szemhazai

You can use unprotected cells.


----------



## cue003

Szemhazai said:


> You can use unprotected cells.



Is the resistor required as mentioned above? Would it not be easier to simply use protected cells? I would love to see someone create a step by step video for this mod.


----------



## Szemhazai

It's required if you want to charge your cells inside the battery pack, if not the charge option is disabled + the battery pack thinks that you are using alkaline batteries and it drains the Li-ion cell under 3.0V


----------



## cue003

Szemhazai said:


> It's required if you want to charge your cells inside the battery pack, if not the charge option is disabled + the battery pack thinks that you are using alkaline batteries and it drains the Li-ion cell under 3.0V



Any chance you can make/mod me one of these packs so that I can use any/all 18650 that I come across? I read your write up but I am still very unsure if I can build an additional pack to use 18650. I need the help.


----------



## hongchai90

Szemhazai said:


> It's required if you want to charge your cells inside the battery pack, if not the charge option is disabled + the battery pack thinks that you are using alkaline batteries and it drains the Li-ion cell under 3.0V



means if i solder together with the NTC Thermistor so i able to track down the battery power level that indicate in the Nao battery pack if i do so ?


----------



## glatrottola

Hello , is my first post .

A frind of mine here in Italy tell me about this forum becouse i would like to buy a Petzl NAO because i think is a versatile lamp and i can use it during night climb or even in night walking but my question is why there are 2 different model ( E36A and E36Ahr ) ?? there is a lot of price difference between them ! 
I think i understand that the first model have less lumens and i think less battery.. is that the difference ?

none in the web seems to notice this .

Tnx


----------



## Mooreshire

glatrottola said:


> Hello , is my first post .
> 
> A frind of mine here in Italy tell me about this forum becouse i would like to buy a Petzl NAO because i think is a versatile lamp and i can use it during night climb or even in night walking but my question is why there are 2 different model ( E36A and E36Ahr ) ?? there is a lot of price difference between them !
> I think i understand that the first model have less lumens and i think less battery.. is that the difference ?
> 
> none in the web seems to notice this .
> 
> Tnx



:welcome:

I just asked them and according to the Sales & Service Technician who replied from Petzl America, they upgraded the NAO back in July. The non-HR versions are the old models which have lower output. Petzl now only sells the HR version, but many retailers still have old stock they are trying to sell off.


----------



## hongchai90

gotten my Petzl Nao but ...


----------



## cue003

hongchai90 said:


> gotten my Petzl Nao but ...



Congrats. I would be very interested in a detailed step by step if you order parts/install the new battery setup. A video would work too. . Enjoy your Petzl Nao.

I am ready to pull the trigger on the new upgraded Nao (575 lumens released in July 2014) but I want to be able to upgrade the battery configuration to the latest and greatest/strongest 18650 batteries and even be able to swap out batteries without having to buy new complete batteries from petzl. 

Any help I can get will be awesome.


----------



## hongchai90

Thanks .. But i realized the battery they provide to me is the 2200mAh and not the one they advertised in their official site which is the 2300mAh ..


Sent from my iPhone using Candlepowerforums


----------



## glatrottola

Mooreshire said:


> :welcome:
> 
> I just asked them and according to the Sales & Service Technician who replied from Petzl America, they upgraded the NAO back in July. The non-HR versions are the old models which have lower output. Petzl now only sells the HR version, but many retailers still have old stock they are trying to sell off.




Thanks , so looking tecnical sheet in the web i think i understand that there are 200 lumens of difference from the e36a old model and e36ahr new model ... and a difference of 40 euros ... 

so thank for your help ..

Now i have to decide or to wait that prices go low ..


----------



## cue003

hongchai90 said:


> Thanks .. But i realized the battery they provide to me is the 2200mAh and not the one they advertised in their official site which is the 2300mAh ..
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Candlepowerforums



Oh man, I didn't even catch that. The 355 lumen version comes with 2300mah battery and the 575 lumen version comes with a 2600mah battery. Are you going to try to get them to send you the correct battery or will you just keep it as it is and try to possibly upgrade the battery to the 3400mah 18650?


----------



## hongchai90

Well, i can't do anything now but only can send petzl an email to clarify on the battery capacity matter ..
now i still got less than 4days to test the headlight before my ultra trail marathon on this weekends .. My setting will be 8hrs on reactive mode .. To play safe i already purchase few pack of energizer lithium for backup .. I guess the 18650 battery modding only start after i order the molex connector thru online .


----------



## Ggmesquita

I got the new version as well and have modded it the same way the old one was (Szemhazai's mod - see first post) The emmiters are now Nichia 219 and the battery is 3400mAh. Love it! This version drives the LEDs a bit harder indeed. When comparing both modded units, the new one is visibly brighter and has a nicer beam pattern.


There is one thing I would like to ask you guys though: I am starting to think the NAO's battery packs might suffer from parasitic drain. Even when disconnected from the headlamp. This is just a something I think I am observing. Can't tell for sure yet, cause I only started measuring yesterday. In 10 hours, mine went from 4.035 to 4.019. I will continue to measure in the next days. If you have the time, would you please do the same? Leave it disconnected from the headlamp and measure the voltage every day. You don't have to open the battery pack for that, just use your DMM and touch the correct pins in the plug, from the outside.


Why do you think they leave the battery disconnected from the battery pack when new and it is you who have to connect it before the fist use?:thinking:


I hope I'm wrong.


Gg


----------



## cue003

Ggmesquita said:


> I got the new version as well and have modded it the same way the old one was (Szemhazai's mod - see first post) The emmiters are now Nichia 219 and the battery is 3400mAh. Love it! This version drives the LEDs a bit harder indeed. When comparing both modded units, the new one is visibly brighter and has a nicer beam pattern.
> 
> There is one thing I would like to ask you guys though: I am starting to think the NAO's battery packs might suffer from parasitic drain. Even when disconnected from the headlamp. This is just a something I think I am observing. Can't tell for sure yet, cause I only started measuring yesterday. In 10 hours, mine went from 4.035 to 4.019. I will continue to measure in the next days. If you have the time, would you please do the same? Leave it disconnected from the headlamp and measure the voltage every day. You don't have to open the battery pack for that, just use your DMM and touch the correct pins in the plug, from the outside.
> 
> 
> Why do you think they leave the battery disconnected from the battery pack when new and it is you who have to connect it before the fist use?:thinking:
> 
> 
> I hope I'm wrong.
> 
> 
> Gg



Congrats on modding the light. Any before and after pics of the beam/output?

Is the battery drain you are experiencing on the modded battery or the default battery from Petzl or it doesn't matter and happens on any/all battery packs?


----------



## Esko

Ggmesquita said:


> There is one thing I would like to ask you guys though: I am starting to think the NAO's battery packs might suffer from parasitic drain. Even when disconnected from the headlamp. This is just a something I think I am observing. Can't tell for sure yet, cause I only started measuring yesterday. In 10 hours, mine went from 4.035 to 4.019. I will continue to measure in the next days. If you have the time, would you please do the same? Leave it disconnected from the headlamp and measure the voltage every day. You don't have to open the battery pack for that, just use your DMM and touch the correct pins in the plug, from the outside.



It surely looks like there is some parasitic drain when connected. My Nao had been unused for some months and the battery was completely empty.


----------



## hongchai90

Completed my first 100k Ultra-Trail Marathon with 5600m++ .. tested Petzl Nao 2012 version for this race, i can say marvelous .. maybe the correct setting put me thru these 12hours of darkness .. 
with 8hours of Reactive lightning setting, it lasted me 12hours with 2 power bar left .. and i was accompany by my friend who also using the same headlights ..


----------



## feifei

Thanks for the great review,love Petzl headlamp


----------



## cue003

I have the 2014 version on its way. Should be fun. I will run it through it paces compared to the many many other headlamps I have purchased this year and some left over from last year that I haven't gotten rid of yet.


----------



## TSellers

I've been curious regarding the following:

1: Has reactive lighting become something that other headlamp engineers have adopted, or is it unique to this model only? (If so, it makes me wonder why the other high end brands have not jumped on the reactive band wagon?)

2: Are wavelengths that offer higher CRI values of any signficant importance, and if so, are they available in this model without the need to do a modification?


----------



## Szemhazai

1 - no it's only Petzl specific technology for Nao and Tikka R / RXP models.
2 - not so much, honestly speaking the CT around 5000K is more important than higher CRI for outdoor activities.


----------



## TSellers

> honestly speaking the CT around 5000K is more important than higher CRI for outdoor activities.



Based on my experience, which is more than casual, , I'd disagree.


----------



## Ggmesquita

cue003 said:


> Congrats on modding the light. Any before and after pics of the beam/output?
> 
> Is the battery drain you are experiencing on the modded battery or the default battery from Petzl or it doesn't matter and happens on any/all battery packs?



Thanks cue.
Problem is I only have 1 battery pack at this moment. A modded one. After aditional testing, I've concluded it does have some drain issue even when disconnected. It is about 0,01V every 48 hours or so.
I have a new battery pack in the mail. When I get it, I will test both the original and the modded one and post results.
Also, when I get the batt, I will post a beamshot pic.

Gg


----------



## chele519

Hi. I just got the updated Nao and am having some trouble customizing the settings. The instructions are not very helpful and I cannot find a customer service number to call Petzl. I'm hoping someone here might be able to help. I set up a 2nd profile but can't figure out how to upload it to the lamp. When I try to change profiles by holding the switch for 10 seconds, the light is supposed to flash but doesn't, it only goes from reactive to constant after 2 seconds. Holding it longer has no effect. I'm thinking that may be because there is only one profile but I'm not sure. There are 2 showing in the software. If anyone can help, I'd really appreciate it.


----------



## illetrikflowz

just picked up the latest nao
any updates on the mods?


----------



## Szemhazai

The new nao is allready on Cree XP-G2 co there is almost no point in led replacement (only if you want to change CT or CRI).


----------



## grimloktt

All,

I'm looking to buy a new headlamp but this site didn't paint a very good review. The site shows the Coast Hl7 as a better value. Thoughts?
http://www.outdoorgearlab.com/Headlamp-Reviews/Petzl-NAO


----------



## TSellers

This fall, our Visitor Safety Specialists, got a dozen of the new model NAO for avalanche rescue. A few weeks ago some the Human Wildlife Conflict Specialists tried them and did not like the tint, so they went for Spark headlamps with T5 emitters instead. Given that Gear Lab does not appear to give any hard stat's such as emitter types, or CRI values in their questionable reviews, that Coast (which seems to be made in the same Chinese facility that makes LED Lenser) does not have nearly the quality of manufacturing standards of either the Petzl or the Spark's however, I so I don't think there's much comparison there. Personally, I think you'll get more solid information from this forum that from those Gearlab reviews.


----------



## Szemhazai

Sorry *grimloktt* but comparing NAO with Coast Hl7 is a :lolsign:. 
NAO is currently one of the most popular headlamp for trail/ultra runners, thats all .


----------



## grimloktt

TSellers said:


> This fall, our Visitor Safety Specialists, got a dozen of the new model NAO for avalanche rescue. A few weeks ago some the Human Wildlife Conflict Specialists tried them and did not like the tint, so they went for Spark headlamps with T5 emitters instead. Given that Gear Lab does not appear to give any hard stat's such as emitter types, or CRI values in their questionable reviews, that Coast (which seems to be made in the same Chinese facility that makes LED Lenser) does not have nearly the quality of manufacturing standards of either the Petzl or the Spark's however, I so I don't think there's much comparison there. Personally, I think you'll get more solid information from this forum that from those Gearlab reviews.





Szemhazai said:


> Sorry *grimloktt* but comparing NAO with Coast Hl7 is a :lolsign:.
> NAO is currently one of the most popular headlamp for trail/ultra runners, thats all .



Thnx guys for your responses. I'm new to researching headlamps (been wearing a cheapo for years, though). Maybe you can check out this thread and share your thoughts? http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb...oast-HL8-LED-Lenser-14R-2-Nitecore-HC50-or-90


----------



## DasVeldermaus

Hi All,


This is my first post on the Candlepowerforum. That being said, I've been reading around here for over a year.


It was this forum that taught me the meaning of Lumens, Lux, Chinese Lumens, protected & unprotected 18650's etc. So, I wanted to start with a thank you to all of you inspiring people out there.


Now, getting to business. I'm a huge Nao fan, but like the rest of you, I'm dissapointed by the battery pack design. What is the use of a 18650 powered headlamp, and a big-bag-o 18650's if you can't use them? 







So, I tried a first mod which ended badly. My approach was to extract the PCB from the original Nao cell, and attach that to 18650 holder clips so a actual battery holder would not be needed. Result was not desirable. 








Second try: I decided to change approach. Instead of changeable cells I decided to go for an external belt mounted battery pack which would allow the NAO to run all night (at least) on it's highest output setting.

For that, I bought the Nao extension cord and scrabled together four flat form factor 2200 mAh batteries and checked if they were still healthy.






Then, I glued them together, sealed the package with tent-repair kit fabric, and used Velcro + an 18650 sized lipstick to "interface" it with the Nao's battery holder.

Result:





It does not win prices for it's looks, but my initial run with this thing at my belt indicated that it should last at least a couple of hours more than the original battery.

My question to you guys is : Did any of you do any (successful) mods of different form factor battery's than single 18650? Am looking to improve this thing


----------



## Szemhazai

Yes it can be done - If you connect only the black and red wire (in the extension cord or in the original cord) the lamp will work until the PCB inside the cell / battery pack will cut off the power.


----------



## PunkBuster

Does light sensor still not work in fog?


----------



## hongchai90

PunkBuster said:


> Does light sensor still not work in fog?



Mine works but for heavy fog haven't tested out yet ..


----------



## carrot

PunkBuster said:


> Does light sensor still not work in fog?



It works quite correctly in the fog. If it is bright, the backscatter prevents you from seeing anyway, so it dims. You can choose to override it, or better yet, use a handheld under these conditions, where the backscatter will be less of an issue.


----------



## ThreeStripes

Custom Three (3) Panasonic cell 18650 3400mAhs with LCD that displays battery meter and charge percentage. Primary single, but modified cell pack is retained so this is essentially a four (4) 18650 cell modified Petzl Nao. LIFE IS GOOD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I can go to hell and back and still have light for days with this bad boy. :devil:


----------



## hongchai90

ThreeStripes said:


> Custom Three (3) Panasonic cell 18650 3400mAhs with LCD that displays battery meter and charge percentage. Primary single, but modified cell pack is retained so this is essentially a four (4) 18650 cell modified Petzl Nao. LIFE IS GOOD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I can go to hell and back and still have light for days with this bad boy. :devil:



This is one piece of godlike modding


----------



## rpg1966

ThreeStripes said:


> Custom Three (3) Panasonic cell 18650 3400mAhs with LCD that displays battery meter and charge percentage. Primary single, but modified cell pack is retained so this is essentially a four (4) 18650 cell modified Petzl Nao. LIFE IS GOOD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I can go to hell and back and still have light for days with this bad boy. :devil:



Hi ThreeStripes, this looks fantastic. Are you able to give us all a bit more detail on how you've connected everything?


----------



## Tengo

Greetings, could someone please tell me can I extract the pcb from the original battery and transfer to a protected cell 18650? Thanks!


----------



## Szemhazai

You can, but better transfer it to unprotected cell.


----------



## Tengo

Szemhazai said:


> You can, but better transfer it to unprotected cell.



Thank you very much for the prompt reply!


----------



## Tengo

Szemhazai said:


> You can, but better transfer it to unprotected cell.



..and please pardon my ignorance, why unprotected cell is better and could you to point me to the right direction for the answer if answering is too time consuming? I understand time is valuable, thanks!


----------



## Tengo

Hi there, just for the sake of experiment, I had transferred the pcb to a 18650 sony 3.7v 3700mah unprotected cell last night, connected to the Nao, it flashed for 2 seconds then stopped and it just didn't lit up anymore! I was scared that I've done something wrong and it burned the Nao. Fortunately, I re-soldered pcb back to the original Nao cell and it works again! Phew..!


----------



## stuba

Hi,

just wanted to share my setup with 3400mAh battery, with battery holder. Original idea to swap batteries does not really work, cause new battery is not recognised correctly. I found work around to keep spare batteries inside external USB battery case. If i first connect USB to my NAO and then change battery it does seem to work like it should. I really have not swapped batteries on the trails. I have had spare Petzl battery pack and it have gave extra time I needed. Anyway this 3400mAh battery seems to give bit more than 20% more time (battery might be getting old). It is better than nothing is moderate lighting levels are used.

This mod was made before extension cord was available. Now I might start to build 2-battery pack, but this is good enough for now.


----------



## hongchai90

stuba said:


> Hi,
> 
> just wanted to share my setup with 3400mAh battery, with battery holder. Original idea to swap batteries does not really work, cause new battery is not recognised correctly. I found work around to keep spare batteries inside external USB battery case. If i first connect USB to my NAO and then change battery it does seem to work like it should. I really have not swapped batteries on the trails. I have had spare Petzl battery pack and it have gave extra time I needed. Anyway this 3400mAh battery seems to give bit more than 20% more time (battery might be getting old). It is better than nothing is moderate lighting levels are used.
> 
> This mod was made before extension cord was available. Now I might start to build 2-battery pack, but this is good enough for now.



Great ... Appreciate if you can show some picture here as need some idea to mod mine as the batteries life span wasn't lasting already .


----------



## yyatan

hello guys!

i just bought my petzl nao 2 and love it!

I ask my self how to extend the battery time and realise that when you use the pc program when the lampe is connected to, you can
change the lampe configuration and test your changing.

At that time the lamp is in charging mode and in use at the same time so-------- is it possible to hack de lamp to be possible to use the lamp during charging the batt???

That way i could connect the normal battery to an extend battery (like an anker) and use the lampe at the same time!!!!

thx for your answer!!!


----------



## hongchai90

It seems like the New Petzl Nao will be on the market ..


----------



## ZoKoNAO

Hello friends,

Does anybody can suggest me, because "diode type upgading" NAO,
regarding the availability of the two latest CREE and NICHIA diodes, what do you suggest:

CREE XP-G2 S4 2B (Approximated light output: 626-655lumens @ 1.5A 25°C Color temperature: 5700-6100K Tint: Cool white (Whiter than "1" tints))
or
NICHIA NVSW219CT R8000 D260 (5000K, 5step MacAdam Elipse Typical 83CRI, Approximated light output: 260-280lumens @ 0.7A 25°C Low thermal resistance, Low forward voltage, Tint: Neutral White)

NICHIA NVSW219CT specifications I have found here:

http://www.ledrise.com/files/nvsw219c_datenblatt.pdf

... but nowhere I can find the specification for CREE XP-G2 S4.

CREE has more lumens, NICHIA has better CRI... I do not know.
*
HELP *1061


----------



## Szemhazai

Cree only - but only if you have the first 350 lumen version of the NAO - in other case it's not worth the risk.


----------



## ZoKoNAO

Szemhazai said:


> Cree only - but only if you have the first 350 lumen version of the NAO - in other case it's not worth the risk.



Respected Szemhazai,

I am very grateful for reply directly from the creator of this tread 

Otherwise, I have both version of the lamp, 350LM and 575LM, and I have already modified 1st version with Cree XP-G2 R2 emmiter.
Never enough wish to push the limits and try something new is the reason for my last question, especially because it costs USD 6 - USD 8 and one hour of electronic work.
But, because I am not sure and do not have experience about what I have asked, what to choose, as I said, I am grateful for (your) help and replay, I really appriciate that, truly.

If you have time and wish to write something more about difference between that two diodes, and if you are introduced about that, I suppose that your kindly reply would be of help to me and other here.

Best regards.


1385


----------



## petros999

Hi,i bought NAO2 and i had a little accident,i think.It doesnt work and the clear plastic infront of the wide beam led is dimpled.I had it in my bag and accidentally maybe opened and the high temperature caused it to stop working.What can i do now?Its officially dead?


----------



## uk_caver

ZoKoNAO said:


> CREE XP-G2 S4 2B (Approximated light output: 626-655lumens @ 1.5A 25°C Color temperature: 5700-6100K Tint: Cool white (Whiter than "1" tints))


A 2B is a warmer tint than any of the '1's.


----------



## WigglyTheGreat

hongchai90 said:


> It seems like the New Petzl Nao will be on the market ..




Any more info on the New Petzl Nao coming out? I this video, but it's in Spanish https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_GmNDWBAF2s#t=10 . From the video it looks like behind the Nao on the wall is 750 so maybe the new Naos wil be 750 lumens? Just curious , thanks.


----------



## WigglyTheGreat

Trailrunningreview had some info about the new Petzl Nao+, but in Spanish so I translated it with google--


30 years ago that the lords of the well-known brand Petzl are creating headlamps, today we'll talk about one of his great fabrications Petzl NAO +. Listed in the Headlamps Performance range, which they define as a range of intelligent ultra-powerful flashlights and others as they adapt automatically to the ambient lighting.

The Petzl NAO + is the renewal of the Petzl NAO, this powerful and intelligent headlamp has an output of 750 lumens We almost could light New York! These 750 lumens promise to be an indispensable tool for night activities like trail running, mountain biking, hiking, etc.

The novelty of this version, the Petzl NAO +, is the ability of this to connect to the new application of MyPetzl Light mobile, where the athlete can see in real time the percentage of battery that detracts or even modify items and profiles of the same .

In short, the Petzl NAO + promises to make life easier in those hours of maximum tension as are the hours of night, offering the Reactive Lighting technology, adaptability of light to environmental conditions and also this version incorporates the synchronization of the instrument to the app MyPetzl Light Mobile, which will allow us to view and modify all functions with a simple click!


----------



## hongchai90

WigglyTheGreat said:


> Any more info on the New Petzl Nao coming out? I this video, but it's in Spanish https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_GmNDWBAF2s#t=10 . From the video it looks like behind the Nao on the wall is 750 so maybe the new Naos wil be 750 lumens? Just curious , thanks.



Hi Bro, yea ... not much info as they didn't mention about the battery life .. but the lumens confirm is 750lumen, and battery pack with build-in red blinking lights ..


----------



## HairNutz

I have a Nao 2 on the way. Didnt realize a bluetooth model will be available next month but oh well.

I too have been trying to determine if I can use 18650 batteries to increase runtime.

Has anyone tried using a USB Y-Cable / Splitter in order to connect 2 of the Petzl battery packs in parallel? Ideally I'd prefer to be able to either use a larger capacity 18650 but Im thinking that when the need arises, I could use their belt clip / extension and have 2 of their factory battery packs when longer runtime is needed.

I havent received mine yet but from what I understand, you can program the battery pack with your custom settings. Im assuming there is more than just + and - connections leaving the USB plug. I then assume I may have to clip a wire or otherwise disable that part of the 2nd battery so the headlamp only gets its 'settings' from one battery? Just a few guesses without actually having one in my hands.

Any input appreciated.


----------



## Szemhazai

HairNutz, in my opinion it won’t work - between USB port and the battery there is charge control circuit so the best idea is to use power bank that will provide 5V for the USB. 

Currently, in my opinion, the best option* is to remove whole electronics from the battery pack and connect battery holder directly to the headlamp wires - the head also have the protection circuit based on voltage control (it's quite precisely set for 3,0V and it's switching to the rescue mode so you can use even unprotected cells). The benefit of this solution is that the lamp will use the whole capacity of the cell that you are using - instead of "calculated capacity" used by Petzl's electronics.

*trail tested on UTMB nad Westen States HairNutz, in my opinion it won’t work - between USB port and the battery there is charge control circuit so the best idea is to use power bank that will provide 5V for the USB. 

Currently, in my opinion, the best option* is to remove whole electronics from the battery pack and connect battery holder directly to the headlamp wires - the head also have the protection circuit based on voltage control (it's quite precisely set for 3,0V and it's switching to the rescue mode so you can use even unprotected cells). The benefit of this solution is that the lamp will use the whole capacity of the cell that you are using - instead of "calculated capacity" used by Petzl's electronics.






*trail tested on UTMB nad Western States :devil:


----------



## ZoKoNAO

5418
Thank you! A little bit late, but - thanx


----------



## KovacsGy

Hi Szemhazai and all guys on the forum I am also would like to modify the battery compartment, so that it can be used with unprotected 18650 batteries, with easy replace. My question would be additionally to the original modification post: did you used the protection circuit salvaged from the Petzl battery?I saw that the battery holder was soldered directly to the board, by wires, but it is not clear if you used the protection circuit or nor.Or there wasnt any space for that?I plan to put a standard 18650 holder into the pack, with the protection circuit from the original Petzl battery - this would mean I wont need to bother with the thermistor, connector, etc. Do you see any flaws with this?Thanks in advance!


----------



## Szemhazai

Kovacs, welcome to CPF :welcome:



> Currently, in my opinion, the best option* is to remove whole electronics from the battery pack and connect battery holder directly to the headlamp wires - the head also have the protection circuit based on voltage control (it's quite precisely set for 3,0V and it's switching to the rescue mode so you can use even unprotected cells). The benefit of this solution is that the lamp will use the whole capacity of the cell that you are using - instead of "calculated capacity" used by Petzl's electronics.


----------



## KovacsGy

Thanks for the fast reply! :twothumbs
So you suggest to connect directly the 18650 battery holder (placed into the emptied Nao pack). Do you have a description about that special connector pins which connect the pack to the head? Maybe if that connector can have an order number any 3.7V battery pack can be connected to the head unit?
For me it is not recommended to place the batteries on my head.


----------



## KovacsGy

KovacsGy said:


> For me it is not recommended to place the batteries on my head.


I mean it is not neccessary


----------



## _Rotor

Szemhazai said:


> Currently, in my opinion, the best option* is to remove whole electronics from the battery pack and connect battery holder directly to the headlamp wires - the head also have the protection circuit based on voltage control (it's quite precisely set for 3,0V and it's switching to the rescue mode so you can use even unprotected cells). The benefit of this solution is that the lamp will use the whole capacity of the cell that you are using - instead of "calculated capacity" used by Petzl's electronics.


Hi Szemhazai. I have followed your publications and the your last opinion surprised me. Can you explain please what will happened with the custom (OS by Petzl) profiles if you chose this new approach (to remove whole electronics from the battery pack). Actually I'm not sure where the profile information is contained, but if it is in the battery pack I cannot understand how this approach will work at all?
What is the disadvantage of the "thermistor mode" (except the obvious that the battery have to be replace more frequent)?
Best Regards _Rotor


----------



## Szemhazai

Hi Rotor, 

The whole "OS thing" is in the head - in the battery compartment is only the battery charging unit and communication system. So you can always use another battery with the electronics to modify OS settings - most of the people did not modify default setting ever.

Current OS in the battery pack will calculate the capacity of the battery by itself - so instead 3400mAh you will have usable 2300/2600mAh, also in case the OS switch itself to "safe mode" you can replace the cell for the new one but it will stay in "safe mode" until you have connect it to the USB power source.


----------



## _Rotor

Hi Szemhazai.
Thank you for your detailed and clear answer. I like the Petzl’s lamps but I hate their practice to make their users hostages via their batteries. I have ordered today a Zebralight flashlight from the online shop located in Netherlands (I am a new here and I am not sure if mentioning of the actual name is a good idea). During my browsing between the shop products, I noticed two 18650 batteries with the well-known three wires and connector (Molex 5264-3P). When I took a close look I found that the batteries was described as “Enerpower 3400mAh li-ion battery for Petzl Nao” for €14.95 and the 3500mAh version for €15.95
I am not familiar with this German brand but it seems reputable. This “discovery” lead me to few questions: Is the Enerpower the Petzl’s battery supplier and why Enerpower sells battery with this capacity if the Nao electronics is tightened to significant less capacity…
--- Edit ---
Obviously the Enerpower is just assembler (They have few products as power banks and e-bike batteries). Also they assemble batteries for few other popular lamps... I don't believe that they are a Petzl's supplier , but the question about the capacity is still actual and may be I have to ask them


----------



## Szemhazai

No, those Enerpower are simply generic cell replacements for NAO - but there is only one "but" - the capacity that can be used is reduced by the software inside the battery pack.


----------



## hongchai90

More juice


----------



## Genzod

the badger said:


> Great review! I bought a Nao back in mid Oct and love it. Sure it has it's flaws (namely the fog issue discussed above and also when breathing), but that stuff is expected from a first generation product. I'm not quite sure how Petzl and others will rectify the reactive/fog issue, but it sure would be nice if the sensor could detect that you are in a foggy/humid environment, and compensate for it. Things to look forward to I guess..



One line in their firmware that tests and rejects distance adjustments of less than half a meter will solve breathing issues. But haven't they figured that out by now? I think you can access the headlamp software, right? So if that's the case, Petzl could make the change and have a firmware update for their customers available on line in a matter of no time at all. 

If you want to read a map, just go manual. I would think auto adjustments are preferred for when you're moving anyway.

As for fog, I'd just go manual when that happens. Headlamps are pretty pointless in the fog. You want to shoot from the hip with a narrow beam or minimized spill when that happens.

But I don't know much about this headlamp, so shoot me. I tried. :laughing:


----------



## sohl

HI 

I have the first mod of the nao and are thinking of getting the new nao+. But after reading this thread I starting to lean to ask for help to mod it with a new stronger led and maybe get away a little cheaper. 

is someone here on candlepower willing to help me mod it with a newer stronger (warmer) led?


----------



## Szemhazai

Sohl - it can be done, but I don't know if the shipping rates and delivery time will not kill the whole idea. 
International priority mail PL-SE ~10 Euro, delivery time about 2 weeks.


----------



## sohl

Szemhazai said:


> Sohl - it can be done, but I don't know if the shipping rates and delivery time will not kill the whole idea.
> International priority mail PL-SE ~10 Euro, delivery time about 2 weeks.



Pm sent


----------



## sunebralla

Hi there!

FYI - today I tried the NAO+ battery in my NAO1 headlamp. It seems to work just fine. The petzl compatibility chart states that they are not compatible but it does work. The NAO1 seems to behave normal. This is the compatibility chart in pdf format from petzl: https://www.petzl.com/sfc/servlet.shepherd/version/download/068w0000002tVlpAAE

The battery connector on the NAO+ differs a small measure from the original NAO. The center piece around the four pins on the NAO battery is oval while on the NAO+ it is more square shaped. This makes it impossible to connect the NAO battery to the NAO+ but it works the other way around. I wonder if the NAO battery would work in the NAO+ if the connector is modified (although of course with some functional impairment). Has anyone tried that?

Greetings

.s


----------



## sunebralla

Oh how annoying...

The mypetzl app for the NAO+ is a disaster. There are bugs that affect the user profiles in such a way that they do not work as intended when uploaded to the lamp. For example, if you define three different levels and upload them, the lamp only have two levels. Another bug is that the levels sometimes disappear from the app main screen and you have to go back and forth to make them visible again. Be aware of that the lamp flickers a couple of times when turned off so wait a while before you look directly into it or you will be temporarily blinded.

The app in itself is unintuitive and lacks any kind of advanced options. There is no way a user may control the individual beams as in OS by Petzl. The only option is to select one of five pre-defined profiles and pull on a slider controlling the maximum reach. There is no information on how the individual beams are set in the different profiles. That is something you will have to find out for yourself by using the lamp. You may only define a maximum of three reactive levels per profile. The whole app experience feels fit for a toy lamp. Actually, the concept of using a smartphone app to control the lamp does not make good sense for any product with a life span of more than a year or two. My own experience tells me these apps gets pulled from appstore sooner or later and there is no way you will be able to reinstall them. If Petzl decide to replace the NAO+ within a few years, do you really think that the app will still be available? You may be sitting there with an expensive lamp you no longer have any means of controlling.

I have been really satisfied with the NAO1 I have had since 2012. Unfortunately the NAO+ does not meet my expectations. It is less advanced and riddled with bugs. Therefore I decided to return it and get the NAO3 lamp instead. It seemed perfect but is very hard to find. Alas though! The guy on Petzl support tells me that the NAO3 does not work with OS by Petzl. In fact there seem to be no way at all to customize the NAO3. 

Maybe I will look into the LED hack possibilities but SMD LEDs are notoriously hard to change.

Regards

.s


----------



## Szemhazai

I've done some modding on NAO 2 - the old leds (I don't know what that was but it was no Cree) were replaced with Samsung LH351C 5000K CRI 90+. I must say that there is no huge difference on the photos, but with naked aye it's huge if you compare those side by side. Despite the fact that modded nao have over 30% more light I would say that old one looks brighter :thinking:, maybe because our eyes are more sensitive to blue than red.

The wall is beige - left Samung 351C / right generic led






Color comparison - top generic led / bottom samsung.





Some measurement's from integrating sphere .

Constant LOW






Constant HIGH






CRI diagram from Constant LOW.


----------



## harlansmart

chasm22,

Pretty useless of PETZL, yeah we noted this too (see image beneath) but weren't able to find a way to source any.

Meantime have reached out to Szemhazai in the hope he might mod another NAO Battery pack so we can finally use generic Panasonic/Sanyo 3500mAh 18650's.

Big 'UPZ' to Szemhazai way over in Poland too for his work & testing on a way around and to combat the PETZL PREDATION :thumbsup:










chasm22 said:


> Hi guys,
> 
> Petzl states in the literature that the battery alone(without the plastic container) is available but I haven't seen it sold anywhere except when packaged as part of the expensive pack. The literature says to reference part E36A20.
> 
> chasm22


----------



## gingerneil

New user.. digging up an old thread - please go easy!
I have just ordered a 3450mah replacement for my original Nao _*link removed_
I am sure I'll be able to charge this once it fitted to the Nao battery housing, but it would be great to be able to charge both the old and new batteries at the same time. Is there a charger available (ideally USB or 12V car fitting) that can take one of these batteries ? The obviously dont go in standard charger due to the electronics/connector.


----------



## gingerneil

gingerneil said:


> New user.. digging up an old thread - please go easy!
> I have just ordered a 3450mah replacement for my original Nao _*link removed_
> I am sure I'll be able to charge this once it fitted to the Nao battery housing, but it would be great to be able to charge both the old and new batteries at the same time. Is there a charger available (ideally USB or 12V car fitting) that can take one of these batteries ? The obviously dont go in standard charger due to the electronics/connector.



I have now installed this and it seems to work great. However, the lamp goes into 'reserve mode' even when there appears to be 2 bars of power left. Is this an issue with the firmware reading the battery level of the improved cell ? Is there anything that can be done to fix this ? Makes it a little pointless upgrading the battery!


----------



## Szemhazai

The lamp is calculating the capacity - you can put there 4000mAh battery and still it will use 2300mah if this is the version of the battery pack that you have... That's why I've posted all information's about his headlamp - to make it more usable and user friendly.


----------



## gingerneil

Yes @szemhazai - I should have done my research!! Hopefully in the way to being resolved now... Thanks!


----------



## creative_bureau

Szemhazai said:


> NAO is the latest headlamp from Petzl - which brings together all the technological innovations of the past few years. Cree XP-G LED’s as a light source, 18650 Li-Ion cell as a power source, programming modes and charging via USB. Anything else? New Zephyr carrying system and "Reactive" - the system that automatically adjusts the light to your needs...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Impressions
> *
> Nice, relatively light (instead of 187 catalog it weighs 190g, but it's a small difference) it appears to be a lamp refined in every detail. No edges except for switch - the switch itself is large and very easy to use. "Eye of Sauron" - as some call light sensor, for certain will attract the attention of every customer :naughty:.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Read more :thumbsup: =>> Petzl NAO it works !



Is the battery life different much from what they claim ?


----------



## Szemhazai

No, the battery life is well calculated + more than an hour in the safety mode.

That was one of the main reasons why I start to mod it - the lamp:
Petzl NAO ICR1865026 - 2600mAh - burn time 3:07

Petzl NAO NCR18650B - 3400mAh - burn time 3:10

WTF?? :devil: After that I've fond that it's using calculated capacity to control burn time...


----------



## hikon2

Hi Sunebrella,

It's very interesting that you can use NAO+ battery in NAO1 headlamp.

I want to know how long will it last ? Does Nao1 recognize NAO+ battery as 3100mAh or 2600mAh ?

Tnx.


----------



## Szemhazai

If you will swap the battery itself it will most probably recognize it as 3100mAh .


----------



## hikon2

Szemhazai said:


> If you will swap the battery itself it will most probably recognize it as 3100mAh .



Thank you, Szemhazai !
I will buy and swap.


----------



## Szemhazai

hikon2 - sorry, I don't know why but but I gave you a false information, It will use it as 3100mah but effective run-times for you will be the same.
NAO 1/2/3 have fixed run-times almost independent from capacity. Only in emergency mode you will be able to use extra capacity - in other word's standard cells won't extend run-time.


----------



## hikon2

I have tested NAO+ battery with NAO2.

NAO+ battery(3100mAh) lasts for about 1:34:00, then blinks three times in constant mode.
NAO battery(2300mAh) lasts for about 1:09:00, then blinks three times in constant mode.
NAO+ battery seems to work as 3100mAh battery with NAO2. So, I'm pleased with NAO+ battery.

Tnx.


----------

