# What happened to FourSevens?



## holygeez03 (Aug 26, 2014)

I remember a period when I was constantly watching to see what 47's was up to... Now it doesn't seem like they have done much with their lineup in a long time... not to mention they were one of first manufacturers to really support the "serious" fanbase with neutral and high CRI offerings. I know they have already stated that neutral/high CRI just doesn't sell well enough to continue offering them... but it seems like it might still be worthwhile just to keep their reputation up within the industry.

For example, I just took a look at their website using their "Light Finder" to confirm my suspicion that they don't offer a Quark that uses an 18650... only the Maelstrom. I know they previously offered an 18650 tube that could be used to make a lego'd 18650 light, but I don't think that's offered anymore. Seriously, no 18650 pocket-sized light?

I still have a Quark AA/14500 Tactical Neutral that's one of my favorite lights around the house, but it seems like an antique compared to the newer lights out there.

Anyone have any insight? Are they doing so well with their current offerings that it doesn't make business sense to change it up? Or are they not doing so well and just trying to get by with what they have?


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## LightWalker (Aug 26, 2014)

Have you seen the Regen MMR-X?


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## GordoJones88 (Aug 26, 2014)

I have given up on 47s.
I got 2 green tinted lights from them.
I don't want another.
My Eagletacs, Nitecores, and Thrunites are not greenish.


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## Freeze_XJ (Aug 26, 2014)

They definately did give the industry a kick, a few years ago, however they now found out that to stay in business, you need more than fancy lights... you need sales. They will need lots of sales ( = money) to develop new lights, and my guess is that the competition is now very strong, so they're taking it slow, bringing innovations at a slower pace than they used to. Their High-CRI lights cost them dearly (many went at a discount), so they discontinued them... They cannot afford to loose money on those funny side-projects, not unless their main lights sell like crazy. Given the activity of others, that's hard. Fenix, Olight and everyone else is busy as well... 

As for the 18650-quarks: yes they were nice (I still love mine), but due to the size that the quark-series has they cannot produce 18650-tubes for them since they'd be too thick. Their solution was a very very thin wall, which was hard (read: expensive) to manufacture, for a low demand. Thus they split it off to the Maelstroms, which are too expensive in my opinion. It's too bad, their quality has been top-notch to me, but as for now, I'm looking at other manufacturers. Still they might return, with new things, and maybe... even a high-CRI  Promise to buy 200 and they might do a run.


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## Norm (Aug 26, 2014)

I tried to find the post but couldn't David has posted explaining how the demand for neutral tint lights is very limited, he also says he's been stuck with neutral stock he can't sell. Hence his unwillingness to manufacture more neutral lights. 

Looks like Freeze_XJ beat me to the punch, in the time it took me to compose my post 

Norm


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## StorminMatt (Aug 26, 2014)

Norm said:


> I tried to find the post but couldn't David has posted explaining how the demand for neutral tint lights is very limited, he also says he's been stuck with neutral stock he can't sell. Hence his unwillingness to manufacture more neutral lights.
> 
> Looks like Freeze_XJ beat me to the punch, in the time it took me to compose my post
> 
> Norm



But how much more does it REALLY cost to stick, say, a neutral XM-L2 in a light than a cool XM-L2? I mean, if Zebralight can sell an SC52w or SC62w for the same price as a cool SC52 or SC62, why can't 47's? And as far as sales, you only need to go to a site like Illumination Supply to see that the neutral offerings of lights by Zebralight and others are the ones that sell. You certainly don't see the cool versions on backorder. But the neutral versions often are. Why? Because people buy them.


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## Norm (Aug 26, 2014)

StorminMatt said:


> Why? Because people buy them.


They are bought by flasaholics, flashaholics are a very tiny percentage of the total market.

Norm


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## WalkIntoTheLight (Aug 26, 2014)

Norm said:


> They are bought by flasaholics, flashaholics are a very tiny percentage of the total market.



Yes, but since a neutral XML is a direct replacement for a cool-white XML, it really shouldn't cost them much to produce them. The issue is getting stuck with the stock, which appears to be the reason they don't make them. This may be more of a problem with them not marketing them properly, rather than stupid consumers. Other manufacturers seem to be able to offer both cool and neutral white.

While I do like 4sevens lights, I find their current line-up is getting a little stale. Just a few tweaks would be nice. Something like a Quark AA with an XML2 (neutral or warm white of course!), but pump up the driver to make it compete a little better in brightness against other 1xAA lights currently on the market. Oh, and get rid of (or hide) the stupid blinkies.


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## fnsooner (Aug 26, 2014)

I still buy a Preon 2 from time to time if they are offered in some sort of non-cool white tint. I was all about 4Sevens a few years back but then they seem to make an effort to move away from the 18650 cell. At the same time, Zebralight seem to embrace the 18650. I have since become an unapologetic Z fan. 

I still like FourSevens, I am just not their target audience.


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## StorminMatt (Aug 26, 2014)

Norm said:


> They are bought by flasaholics, flashaholics are a very tiny percentage of the total market.
> 
> Norm



The same goes for companies like 47's in general. Your average Joe doesn't exactly go out and pay $50 for a Preon penlight or $100 for a Maelstrom MMU-X3. Flashoholics do. So 47's needs to market to flashoholics.


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## fnsooner (Aug 26, 2014)

Norm said:


> I tried to find the post but couldn't David has posted explaining how the demand for neutral tint lights is very limited, he also says he's been stuck with neutral stock he can't sell.
> 
> Norm


 
Are you talking about this post?http://www.cpfmarketplace.com/mp/sh...ll-available&p=4834591&viewfull=1#post4834591


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## Norm (Aug 26, 2014)

fnsooner said:


> Are you talking about this post?http://www.cpfmarketplace.com/mp/sh...ll-available&p=4834591&viewfull=1#post4834591


Yes :twothumbs

Norm


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## holygeez03 (Aug 26, 2014)

Zebralight, just to name one manufacturer, doesn't seem to have any trouble unloading lights with "special" tints... even when they get blasted in places like this for releasing lights with rather terrible tints.

Lumen ratings are so non-objective, why not just make all of the lights with nice neutral tints and stamp the maximum reasonable lumen count on it... then everyone is happier. 

I haven't seen their income statements, so I can only assume 47's is doing well with their current business model... but I'm surprised that they are able to sell that many "expensive" lights (according to the masses) without catering to the "niche crowd".


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## raz-0 (Aug 26, 2014)

My EDC is a quark 123^2 from the initial pre order. It was a really nice design and 4sevens nailed it out of the gate between form factor, UI, and performance. 

One of the main problems is that it is that was what... 5 years ago? That package now puts out a whopping 82 more lumens in a market where you are seeing aa lights get similar lumens. 

They showed up and looked radical to some extent. Then they got very conservative it seems. Consistent, honest, and reliable is nice, but it seems to have impeded progress to some extent. 

Then you have odd things like claiming the maelstrom regen is one if the most compact 18650 lights on the market at 5.4 inches in length? Seriously? I'm reading that while I have a zebralight sc62w in hand that I just got. 

I'd like to see them bring the original quark ethos to something sporting an 18650 rather than just relegating them to the maelstrom line up.


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## StorminMatt (Aug 26, 2014)

raz-0 said:


> One of the main problems is that it is that was what... 5 years ago? That package now puts out a whopping 82 more lumens in a market where you are seeing aa lights get similar lumens.
> 
> 
> 
> Then you have odd things like claiming the maelstrom regen is one if the most compact 18650 lights on the market at 5.4 inches in length? Seriously? I'm reading that while I have a zebralight sc62w in hand that I just got.



82 lumens is about what you get from a good 1xAAA. Even a relatively cheap 1xAA can generally do quite a bit better than 82 lumens.

As for the Maelstrom Regen, I've not seen one. But keep in mind that the SC62w is the 'latest and greatest' that Zebralight has to offer. The Regen has been out considerably longer. Not sure what kind of response 47's is going to have to that (if any).


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## leon2245 (Aug 27, 2014)

If you don't have at least 7 threads on the front page, yoooooouuuuur'e NOTHIN!

/kj2


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## Overclocker (Aug 27, 2014)

well they still have a few outstanding lights in the lineup:

QP2L-X / QT2L-X really small slim lightweight and really bright 780 lumens. excellent UI and range of outputs (moonlight). sure the SC62 is out now but this physical design is simply more reliable than zebralights. and repairable, when your zebra switch breaks you're basically screwed.







Maelstrom MMU-X3. beats that sky ray king at a fraction of the size






shorter than most tactical lights. you simply can't beat the size


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## monkeyboy (Aug 27, 2014)

In my experience, they have some horrendous quality control issues. I've bought 3 lights from them in total and all have had minor issues. 

1) Quark 2 x 123 Ti XP-G, had PWM flicker on the lower modes when it was specifically advertised not to.
2) Quark 2 x 123 XP-G, had missing moon mode
3) Quark Mini 123 XP-G s2, had some glue over the emitter (sent this one back)

Maybe I was just extremely unlucky, but I'm not buying anything from 4sevens again.


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## shelm (Aug 27, 2014)

monkeyboy said:


> In my experience, they have some horrendous quality control issues. I've bought 3 lights from them in total and all have had minor issues.
> 
> 1) Quark 2 x 123 Ti XP-G, had PWM flicker on the lower modes when it was specifically advertised not to.
> 2) Quark 2 x 123 XP-G, had missing moon mode
> ...



Their lights are Made In The China.

So please don't blame the company for the QC issues. They cannot control it because they are US-company.


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## radiopej (Aug 27, 2014)

But it's up to them to pick the production company. They put their name on the lights - people may buy it for that name and what it entails. You can't possibly suggest that we can't judge a flashlight company on the quality of its flashlights because they are produced by a contractor... what else can you judge them on?


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## shelm (Aug 27, 2014)

i am saying that you can judge the contractor, i.e. The China factory, they produced it, they produced the poor build quality, they implanted the greenish XM-L's because they didn't refuse the lot by CREE. what can 4sevens, sitting at the CAD/PC in Atlanta USA, do there?

if you're coming from Surefire quality, then no doubt you'll find 4sevens stuff cheap, because it is in fact very cheaply produced, the ex-fac cost is ridiculously low, maybe 5$ for a Quark AA², just the light.

i am myself not too satisfied with mass production quality of various flashlight companies. and instead of blaming or judging i simply sell the lights and give the companies another chance. after 2-3 FAILS i'd avoid their products in future.

the Olight O'Pen was an outstanding release though. bulls eye.


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## WalkIntoTheLight (Aug 27, 2014)

shelm said:


> Their lights are Made In The China.
> 
> So please don't blame the company for the QC issues. They cannot control it because they are US-company.



The "made in China" thing is a cop-out and red herring. Apple makes almost all their stuff in China, and it's of pretty good quality. When they do have issues, you don't hear the Apple fanboys blaming China. They complain to Apple, and eventually they get a replacement or repair (like with the current battery problems on the iPhone5).


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## thedoc007 (Aug 27, 2014)

shelm said:


> i am saying that you can judge the contractor, i.e. The China factory, they produced it, they produced the poor build quality, they implanted the greenish XM-L's because they didn't refuse the lot by CREE. what can 4sevens, sitting at the CAD/PC in Atlanta USA, do there?



Yeah, I'm going to have to disagree with you there. One, a company can send people to monitor the line, and ensure the design standards are being met. Two, if a problem does get through production, quality assurance should catch it, and not send it out to a customer (yes, one will get through quality assurance here and there, but in the example you used, you are talking about large scale defects). It doesn't make any difference at all where it is produced...if their name is on the product, they are responsible for the end product, regardless of who else may have been involved earlier in the process. To say they are not to blame is to give them a free pass to cut corners, regardless of how that influences the quality of the product.


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## SimulatedZero (Aug 27, 2014)

I finally got a four sevens light a couple of years ago and to be honest, it didn't blow my skirt up nearly as much as I thought it would. The tint is slightly green, which is something that drives me nuts, and I would like it a lot more if the blink modes were hidden. I will say that I do like having moonlight mode and it has never failed once. I just wish I could get one in neutral and have no or hidden blinky modes. 

How's this for a tweak, put a thicker layer of ano on, hide the blinky modes, and design the larger lights for 18650s. Then, I would like them more than Eagletac. They are better quality, they just need some tinny tweaks. 


Oh, and ano the tail cap threads please


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## recDNA (Aug 27, 2014)

My old quark ti lights are among my most prized flashlights. They still hold their own against much newer pocketables and it is easy to find somebody to put in a different driver or warmer led. I just hate to mess with mine. I do have one with a 1.5 amp driver that may be my all time fav.

I use use their neutral tint quarks in both bathrooms and always carry a quark in my car in case I need something pocketable. My precious titanium quark 123 with holster was stolen from my old car which is still a heart breaker.

I do notice a theme here though....no new ones.


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## BillSWPA (Aug 27, 2014)

My first FourSevens light was a Quark 123^2 Tactical that I got for $27 off of their clearance page. Coincidentally it arrived the same day a much more expensive light from another maker arrived back from the maker, exhibiting exactly the same issue for which I had sent it in for repair. After quickly realizing that my $27 Quark did what I needed ti to do better than the much more expensive light, I was a convert.

I have now purchased a total 9 FourSevens lights, including four Quark Tacticals, two CR2 Minis, two Preons, and an Atom with a red LED. The Minis have been dropped repeatedly from heights of about 3 feet without issues, and some of my Quarks have also had similar drops onto concrete with no issues. Other friends have dropped their Quarks onto concrete from 5 feet, or put them through the washing machine, without issues. The Atom has been my only disappointment due to the rapid wear of the O-ring (solved with lube) and mode jumping.

As I type this, my QT2L and MLR2 are in my pocket, with the MLR2 on my keychain. There is always at least one FourSevens light on my person. I will take predictable reliability over constant new innovations any day.

If you like 18650, you can get a Keeppower 16650 and have most of the same advantages as 18650.


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## SimulatedZero (Aug 27, 2014)

I like their old/ current line up. It works. That's why I'm drifting away from Fenix. They are changing too fast for the sake of change and they are loosing the old good ones that worked perfect. 

I like stable lights. I don't need max lumens or anything cutting edge. 1.5amp draw is perfect. Plus the above mentioned criteria, lol.

I think it would be a shame if they followed everyone else and pushed for max output with the latest and greatest. 

They have a good line, but maybe looking for small ways to improve what already works would help them.


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## Overclocker (Aug 27, 2014)

monkeyboy said:


> In my experience, they have some horrendous quality control issues. I've bought 3 lights from them in total and all have had minor issues.
> 
> 1) Quark 2 x 123 Ti XP-G, had PWM flicker on the lower modes when it was specifically advertised not to.
> 2) Quark 2 x 123 XP-G, had missing moon mode
> ...




yes you're extremely unlucky. and your sample size is 3. statistically insignificant

as far as chinese lights are concerned Foursevens' quality-control is actually pretty good if not the best


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## Overclocker (Aug 27, 2014)

shelm said:


> Their lights are Made In The China.
> 
> So please don't blame the company for the QC issues. They cannot control it because they are US-company.




foursevens are made by olight. david chow is chairman of olight and owner of foursevens, so pretty much the same company.


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## SimulatedZero (Aug 27, 2014)

No kidding. I wonder if Foursevens has taken a back seat and if Olight is the main focus these days.


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## leon2245 (Aug 27, 2014)

Really minor point, but another tough thing about their branding is all the different ways "foursevens" has been expressed (numbers, letters, various combinations between the two with & w/o dashes), I've seen it all different ways on the internet & information is less consolidated by search terms. By now google at least might account for that and still retrieve everything even if not at the same priority, but as many times I've been to their website, I still forget every time. I'm pretty sure at some point foursevens themselves has even mixed it up if not outright changed it.


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## skyfire (Aug 27, 2014)

monkeyboy said:


> In my experience, they have some horrendous quality control issues. I've bought 3 lights from them in total and all have had minor issues.
> 
> 1) Quark 2 x 123 Ti XP-G, had PWM flicker on the lower modes when it was specifically advertised not to.
> 2) Quark 2 x 123 XP-G, had missing moon mode
> ...



this is my reason i became disinterested with 47s.

i have a XP-E model, and their first ever XP-G R5(when the XP-G was all the craze) model 123x2. quality was good, worked flawlessly even after taking a beating as my work light. i was a big 47 fan because of it.
but every quark or preon i bought after that i had minor issues with. ive purchased close to 10 of their lights.
most of the issued were from its threads. it was just sub par machining. parts being able to lego is a selling point for them. but i was having lot of contact issues when doing that. i picked up a preon 2, along with a preon1 body. well, the preon1 body didnt work, cause it wasnt making contact with the preon head. the cost of the body made it not worth shipping back for an exchange.
another quark i had, if i swap the tailcap, and head position on the body, it wouldnt work. and parts from other quarks did not lego.
most issues were minor, but i dont expect issues when i buy new. 

to me, i felt their quality took a dip. i dont know how their quality is now after they rebranded though. also, david running both 47 and olight now should mean he has more control over the manufacturing aspect. but at this point it doesnt matter, the damage was done. im still a fan of what david has done though, and the support he has for the community here.


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## monkeyboy (Aug 27, 2014)

Overclocker said:


> as far as chinese lights are concerned Foursevens' quality-control is actually pretty good if not the best



And what's that based on? I've read way more complaints about 4sevens than any of the other premium chinese brands. Fenix, Jetbeam, Eagletac, etc.


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## AnAppleSnail (Aug 27, 2014)

Overclocker said:


> QP2L-X / QT2L-X really small slim lightweight and really bright 780 lumens.



I don't like the new model numbers. It used to be pretty simple: Model + Battery type + UI. Quark CR123^2 Tactical, easy as pie to describe and remember (Words instead of consonant mush). It looks like Q=Quark, P="Pro" (Regular), T="Tactical", A=AA, C=CR123, and B=Turbo. It's not so bad, just different. 

But if I read 3-year-old rave reviews about the Quark Tactical 2xAA, which legos to 2xAA, 1x14500, 1x16340, 1x17670 - Runtime for any pocket! How will I find it now? Heck, if I heard about 4Sevens, or 4-Sevens, or Four-7s, how will I find FourSevens?

Nobody today makes a light like my Quark Tactical 2xAA with the neutral-white XP-E. The closest product is one of the two-stage Streamlights. It's almost like "high-output two-stage light" is the new go-to standard, from Romisen to Surefire.


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## WalkIntoTheLight (Aug 27, 2014)

monkeyboy said:


> And what's that based on? I've read way more complaints about 4sevens than any of the other premium chinese brands. Fenix, Jetbeam, Eagletac, etc.



Irrelevant. There are so many ways that observation of yours is meaningless. Just to state a few: (1) You probably are displaying observation bias. I'm sure you have no real numbers to back up those observations. (2) You have no idea how likely it is for someone to complain about a brand, so can't derive any useful information from the numbers even if you had them. (3) Without knowing total sales to Internet posters from each brand, you don't have any idea what percentage of customers are complaining. (4) Severity of issues isn't taken into account. Is it a DOA light, or an issue with tint?


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## monkeyboy (Aug 27, 2014)

WalkIntoTheLight said:


> Irrelevant. There are so many ways that observation of yours is meaningless. Just to state a few: (1) You probably are displaying observation bias. I'm sure you have no real numbers to back up those observations. (2) You have no idea how likely it is for someone to complain about a brand, so can't derive any useful information from the numbers even if you had them. (3) Without knowing total sales to Internet posters from each brand, you don't have any idea what percentage of customers are complaining. (4) Severity of issues isn't taken into account. Is it a DOA light, or an issue with tint?



I'm not making any claim here, just stating MY observation. Overclocker is the one making a baseless claim with his statement that 4sevens QC is the best.


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## WalkIntoTheLight (Aug 27, 2014)

monkeyboy said:


> Overclocker is the one making a baseless claim with his statement that 4sevens QC is the best.



Without having inside information about their QC process, he couldn't possibly know.

My own anecdotal observations are that 4sevens quality is no better or worse than any other mid-priced flashlight company. But that's useless info too.


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## Esko (Aug 27, 2014)

Overclocker said:


> yes you're extremely unlucky. and your sample size is 3. statistically insignificant



Getting three lights that work well would be insignificant. Assuming, of course, that 99% of the lights should work well out of the box. Getting 3/3 lights that don't work, that is a bit different. I do agree with the unlucky part though.



skyfire said:


> parts being able to lego is a selling point for them.



It was said that neutral/warm/high cri (=other than cool white) leds are bought by no other people than flashaholics. I believe that it depends a bit more on how the choices are represented, or not represented. Even if the cool white is the best seller. However, I do believe that legoability is not a selling point to any other people than flashlight enthusiasts.


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## LeukTech (Aug 27, 2014)

shelm said:


> i am saying that you can judge the contractor, i.e. The China factory, they produced it, they produced the poor build quality, they implanted the greenish XM-L's because they didn't refuse the lot by CREE. what can 4sevens, sitting at the CAD/PC in Atlanta USA, do there?



If you owned a company and out-sourced to China to have them build your product, it is up to you to make sure what they make is the product you want. Let's say your company was selling plastic trashcans and you had a bunch recently made by your factory in China, only you find out that the plastic is all deformed, uneven and completely messed up. Would you sell those to your customers? And would your excuse for the poor quality be "Well, it was made in China and I live in the US, so there is nothing I can do about that. Blame the factory not me". 

Foursevens lights aren't shipped to the customer direct from China, and it is Foursevens responsibility to make sure the product is as advertised and free of defects before shipping out. And if that contractor in China keeps screwing up lights, then Foursevens needs to find a new contractor or whip them into shape.


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## kyhunter1 (Aug 27, 2014)

Simple solution to the tint issue. Pre order only, and only make the lights that are already ordered and paid for. No left over stock to :mecryver that way. One of my favorite lights is a 2x123 tactical XPE. This lights gets daily burntime and it still looks almost new after nearly 5 years of use. Ive had several 4sevens lights, and only one with issues. Quality is not bad for the price for the most part. Poor quality lights making it to customers hands is their fault hands down regardless of who's to blame. In 4sevens defense, customer service is good. They are taking a step back as far as innovation goes. I see no reason they could not revamp the quark line to slightly fatter dimensions for 18650's. It would be a big boost in sales. Till they do, a Eagletac D25LC2 neutral XML2 is staying in my pocket.


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## jabe1 (Aug 27, 2014)

Cree has a minimum order quantity. A pre-order only sale would not make sense, unless it was understood that nothing would be produced without hitting a minimum number.


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## cbthedookie (Aug 27, 2014)

When I first started buying "nicer" lights, I bought a few foursevens. As others have expressed, many had problems - such as the bright flash when turning on the light in moonlight mode. I've not purchased a light from them in maybe 2 years, as they are relatively expensive (which I'm willing to pay) however they have proven to be no better - and arguably inferior to fenix, olight, zebralight, etc.


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## reppans (Aug 27, 2014)

A Quark started me down the road of flashaholism. I fell in love with its moonlight mode, efficiency, and AA/14500 battery versatility. I tried beating my Quarks and think I now own, or have owned, the best of everything else in an efficient, moonlight mode AA light, and I'm right back where I started - with Quarks. Yeah 47 lights have their issues, but the Malkoff, Peak, Zebralight, Eagletac, Olight, and ThruNite issues are worse... at least for my needs, and I test my light for output and runtime. And if there was a failure, personally, I think I'd only bother dealing with Malkoff and Foursevens for repair/warranty - the rest fall into the disposable category. David has integrity and doesn't blow smoke through his spec sheets and warranty claims, etc like half the other Asian manufacturers.... I really value that. 


I also gift more lights than I own myself (dozens), and 47s sees the lion's share of that as well - I want a good warranty and hassle-free customer service to go along with my gift to a non-flashaholics, they're not going to care about the fine nuances of little better: tint, output, UI, etc. Any light I give will be 10x better than anything they've ever used before. So far, no failures with any of my, or gifted, 47 lights, and I keep track. I stock up on 47 lights when they're on good sales - I bought at least a dozen XML Quarks during the great rebranding sales, still saving a couple two years later - no worries, still under warranty, and still my favorite lights.


Seems to me 47s has moved over to the higher volume, general public, non-flashaholic market - smart move and I hope they do well. They occupy a nice little market niche all by themselves offering Asian-style features (pricing, common cell support, brighter outputs, longer runtimes (lower lows), and multi-modes), yet with a US-style marketing integrity, warranty, and customer support, and are US-based. I think that formula works, particular with the non-flashaholic that is starting with his first good light "investment" - I did. 


Specialty tints requested by flashaholics is chump change - Goinggear has commented that specialty tints are a mouse fart as a percentage of their sales, why bother.


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## BillSWPA (Aug 28, 2014)

Regarding quality, take a look through the best/worst purchases thread in the general discussion forum. Look at the number of best/worst ratings for a number of brands. Then, draw your own conclusions.


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## Haesslich (Aug 28, 2014)

I can only say that I've had two Preon P0's, a P1, a P2 high CRI, a Mini CR2 WW, a Mini CR123, and a Quark 2xAA and have never had QC issues. I've also given a P0 and P1 away to friends and family and not heard of problems. 

As as for the lack of exciting to flashaholics lights, I expect they've discovered that a large slice of a very small part of the market is much less profitable than a slice of the much larger non-flashaholic market.


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## thedoc007 (Aug 28, 2014)

Haesslich said:


> As as for the lack of exciting to flashaholics lights, I expect they've discovered that a large slice of a very small part of the market is much less profitable than a slice of the much larger non-flashaholic market.



But is there a large non-flashaholic market for this type of light? In my experience, outside of people who use lights for duty (LEOs, firefighters, etc., who are more likely to be flashaholics anyway), most people aren't willing to even CONSIDER paying more than $50 for a light. In fact, if you tell them you how much you paid for a light, usually they roll their eyes or ask what you were thinking. Since most mid-range brands popular on CPF seem to have limited retail outlets, if any at all, I'm not sure if this purported mass market really exists. Does anyone actually have a good idea of sales, to clarify, or are we just all making wild guesses?


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## GoingGear.com (Aug 28, 2014)

thedoc007 said:


> But is there a large non-flashaholic market for this type of light? In my experience, outside of people who use lights for duty (LEOs, firefighters, etc., who are more likely to be flashaholics anyway), most people aren't willing to even CONSIDER paying more than $50 for a light. In fact, if you tell them you how much you paid for a light, usually they roll their eyes or ask what you were thinking. Since most mid-range brands popular on CPF seem to have limited retail outlets, if any at all, I'm not sure if this purported mass market really exists. Does anyone actually have a good idea of sales, to clarify, or are we just all making wild guesses?



You might want to walk into an REI to gauge what the mass market will tolerate. REI stocks Fenix and Nitecore in their stores and I'm sure we'll see more eventually.

Home Depot sells $40-50 LED Lenser lights in their stores, not to mention the hundreds of lights on their site, so a $50-60 FOURSEVENS or Olight isn't much of a stretch for many people, especially people that use them on the job. That market is MUCH larger than the flashaholic market. Think about how large the construction industry alone is, and many of those folks are using lights on a daily basis. Factor in inspectors, law enforcement, mining, military, etc. and you get a massive market that is willing to pay for quality. They've all owned the $20 garbage lights and many are looking for something better.

Regarding FOURSEVENS quality, they are one of the lower warranty issue companies that we have. I'd say their quality is better than average.

Regarding tint, High CRI and neutral just don't sell compared to cool white. The vast majority of people want max lumens, even knowing what High CRI will get them. They just don't care about tint.

When you have to buy LED reels with 1000 LEDs in each reel and manufacture lights in batches of 500+, then you start looking pretty closely at what actually sells.


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## Overclocker (Aug 28, 2014)

GoingGear.com said:


> Regarding FOURSEVENS quality, they are one of the lower warranty issue companies that we have. I'd say their quality is better than average.





monkeyboy said:


> I'm not making any claim here, just stating MY observation. Overclocker is the one making a baseless claim with his statement that 4sevens QC is the best.




told you so 

if you sell as many lights as GG does it quickly becomes apparent which brands have more issues right out of the box than the others

then you'll also see which brands tend to fail further down the line

then you'll figure out that the simplicity of a flashlight is related to its failure rate. so yes i'd rather have foursevens keep things simple than having all the bells and whistles that break


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## WalkIntoTheLight (Aug 28, 2014)

jabe1 said:


> Cree has a minimum order quantity. A pre-order only sale would not make sense, unless it was understood that nothing would be produced without hitting a minimum number.



Kick starter.

They don't have to buy 1000 emitters directly from Cree, they could buy them from a reseller in smaller quantities if needed. Just factor in the higher cost in the Kickstarter campaign. I'd definitely go for one or two, as long as the price wasn't too much higher. A few dollars extra for a warm or neutral would be okay. Zebralight does it for the same price as cool white, so it can't be that difficult to do.


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## gunga (Aug 28, 2014)

Just sell neutral, no cool white. Take a small hit in output. You won't be left with extra stock. Advertise the fact you only use neutral. People will eventually realize (or not) it's better and always buy from you.

Kind of like Subaru and all wheel drive. When's the last time Subaru sold a non AWD vehicle?


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## fnsooner (Aug 28, 2014)

One of the reasons I own so many lights is that when I see a light in the form factor I want that has a neutral or warm tint, I buy it. This includes 4Sevens, Xeno, Dereelight, Dry, Old Lumens, odd and end drop ins, etc. I ordered a couple of Preon 2s and a Sportac P60 drop in with Nichia LEDs just this week. All because I fear that tinted light offerings will dry up.

I am really not a tint snob so much as I just can't stand that dark pond moss green tint I get when I purchase cool white. If all my cool white lights had a nice white tint, I probably wouldn't have gone down this road of buying neutral/warm lights. I do like the variety of my tinted collection though. They all give a different sensation to the senses. 

I am now to the point where I am stocked up and I don't care too much if everybody quits offering special tints. In fact, it would probably be doing my wallet a favor.


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## Esko (Aug 28, 2014)

I'd like to add one thing that I forgot while going through the messages earlier. Once I saw the title for the first time, I expected that the topic would be: "What happened to Foursevens, it looks like they are not communicating with us any more".


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## reppans (Aug 28, 2014)

GoingGear.com said:


> You might want to walk into an REI to gauge what the mass market will tolerate. REI stocks Fenix and Nitecore in their stores and I'm sure we'll see more eventually.
> 
> Home Depot sells $40-50 LED Lenser lights in their stores, not to mention the hundreds of lights on their site, so a $50-60 FOURSEVENS or Olight isn't much of a stretch for many people, especially people that use them on the job. That market is MUCH larger than the flashaholic market. Think about how large the construction industry alone is, and many of those folks are using lights on a daily basis. Factor in inspectors, law enforcement, mining, military, etc. and you get a massive market that is willing to pay for quality. They've all owned the $20 garbage lights and many are looking for something better.
> 
> ...



Thanks for chiming in. Given the exceptionally broad range of flashlights you cover, and I can only imagine the volume as well, you really can't ask for a better, independent, fully-informed, 47s endorsement and opinion on the flashlight market than you. Your comment is enough to end the debate - period. 

So, that being said, how about ending other similar perpetual debates and bickering with just about every other manufacturer out there by letting us see your "below-average-quality-list" . Course if you consider it to be unethical or imprudent for a man in your position to dis any of your suppliers.... well then, you could just tell your "above-average-quality-list" instead .

(BTW, your company's customer service is EXCELLENT and keeps me coming back everytime )


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## burntoshine (Aug 28, 2014)

I spent a lot of money with 7777 and I had a very high percentage of quality control issues. I got sick of dealing with it. I stuck with them for a long time, but the problem persisted. I have never had such a large amount of problems with any other company. Now they won't offer any tints other than cool white? Peace out!

And I know for a fact the company name is based in religion. That's fine and dandy if it's your cup of tea, but it's not mine. Religion has its tentacles into nearly everything.. government, boy scouts, flashlights; you can't get away from it. That's just another thing that bothered me. Not a huge deal, but obnoxious, in my darn opinion.

I still have some 7777 lights that I managed to obtain free of defects, but I seriously doubt I will ever buy any more of their lights.


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## f22shift (Aug 28, 2014)

i would buy a quark tactical if they made it 18650 and got rid of the pre flash(i'm fine with soft ramp up on lower modes). always loved the tactical UI. I actually don't have any FoursEvens lights anymore. i gave them away, they are not bad for non flashaholics i think which is their market. i don't think there is anything wrong with that.

i still think it's a good idea for a company to have concept lights(low volume, innovative lights) to keep a buzz for the brand. i know that car companies usually have the mid priced sports cars(nissan with Z etc) for brand imaging. Then they shift the styling cues to their normal sedans which are actually the most profitable. otherwise sport cars are pretty much worthless in terms of profitability because of it's niche market.


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## thedoc007 (Aug 28, 2014)

gunga said:


> Just sell neutral, no cool white. Take a small hit in output. You won't be left with extra stock. Advertise the fact you only use neutral. People will eventually realize (or not) it's better and always buy from you.



But who says neutral white is empirically better? Given the choice, I usually go for cool white. Not because it has 7% more lumens...that is insignificant and smaller than the variation between lights anyway...but because I simply like the tint better. Any company that went exclusively neutral would lose my interest in a hurry, and I'm sure I'm not the only one.

The worst LED I have ever seen (massive green tint) was in a Surefire. So just because FourSevens has had a few issues with tint, doesn't mean that aren't still reliable. Unfortunately, though, I've owned three FourSevens lights, and all three had problems. Unless they really start making some major changes, and add some new offerings to the line-up, I see no reason to buy anything more from them. I wanted to like 'em, but my tolerance for defective lights has been reached for this particular brand. At some point I stop caring about the warranty...which granted, is better than most. Even if they are willing to take care of a problem, it is still a hassle to deal with it.


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## Ezeriel (Aug 28, 2014)

I never understood the praise for all things 4sevens...

He went from selling fenix lights. to selling fenix knockoffs... 

...sure it's easy to improve on someone else's product when your a distributor, and you get all kinds of customer feedback.
...but when it's your company that signed a contract for green tinted LEDs, life isn't so easy.

The major selling point for 4sevens lights is the lifetime guarantee, but most lights, that are going to fail, do so in the first few days of use,
so most people don't need a warranty, unless they bought a 4sevens light, cause they have a reputation for breaking down.

....you have to wonder, buy a light that almost never breaks without a warranty, or buy a light known for breaking down with a lifetime warranty.

I have an old River Rock Q5, my house flooded in september, found the light in the yard the following spring, after a long new york winter.
After I power washed the mud off, the light worked just fine; two years later, and I still use it daily to put the dog out.


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## f22shift (Aug 28, 2014)

thedoc007 said:


> But who says neutral white is empirically better? Given the choice, I usually go for cool white. Not because it has 7% more lumens...that is insignificant and smaller than the variation between lights anyway...but because I simply like the tint better. Any company that went exclusively neutral would lose my interest in a hurry, and I'm sure I'm not the only one.
> 
> The worst LED I have ever seen (massive green tint) was in a Surefire. So just because FourSevens has had a few issues with tint, doesn't mean that aren't still reliable. Unfortunately, though, I've owned three FourSevens lights, and all three had problems. Unless they really start making some major changes, and add some new offerings to the line-up, I see no reason to buy anything more from them. I wanted to like 'em, but my tolerance for defective lights has been reached for this particular brand. At some point I stop caring about the warranty...which granted, is better than most. Even if they are willing to take care of a problem, it is still a hassle to deal with it.



i'm in the same boat. i used to be a neutral snob but i actually changed. i like my handhelds cool and my headlamps neutral.

regarding new light, it's possible there are behind the scenes R&D happening. it's just that nothing good for the market was achieved that was worth releasing. also, the process of coming with a new light is a bit stressful and possibly not profitable. we know he had his designs stolen before. 

at the beginning when he started his company, he just had a kid. maybe the driving force to push for his own company. i think he had another kid also. i don't have children myself but i know when my niece visits, it's consumes any free time and energy that i have. it's possible the company is doing well on autopilot and he wants to spend time with his family. 

who knows


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## f22shift (Aug 28, 2014)

Ezeriel said:


> I never understood the praise for all things 4sevens...
> .



that will be the interesting thing in the coming years. david was very hands on at the beginning so the older members know him. as the old members disappear and the new ones come, that same question might pop up more.

i don't think it's just as simple as selling fenix knockoffs. i saw his lights as evolution of the fenix lights at the time when fenix was getting a bit complacent dominating the niche market at the time.


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## bansuri (Aug 28, 2014)

thedoc007 said:


> Any company that went exclusively neutral would lose my interest in a hurry, and I'm sure I'm not the only one.


It seems that's the problem 4sevens is having with the CPF crowd, except they went cool tint.
I'd respect the company that had the chutzpa to offer only neutral and offer a little Derrik Dean style filter paper pack so you could warm it up or whatever


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## dealgrabber2002 (Aug 28, 2014)

gunga said:


> When's the last time Subaru sold a non AWD vehicle?




The new BRZ?


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## gunga (Aug 29, 2014)

dealgrabber2002 said:


> The new BRZ?



Ah true, but that's more of a hot rod knock off, not their bread and butter.

I know not everyone prefers cool, but you can easily advertise "better" colour rendering, more pleasant tint etc. I think many would like it, they just have to try it. It would make the company unique and not lose much in the process.


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## burntoshine (Aug 29, 2014)

LightWalker said:


> What religion does 7777 represent? I doubt most people know. Corrupt religions haveblinded many to the truh.



"4sevens come from a bibical reference from revelation/daniel -
refering to the end-times the great tribulation. The first sevens is
the last 7 years. 3.5 of which is the great tribulation. The next
sets of sevens are the seven seals, seven trumpets, seven bowls"


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## IMSabbel (Aug 29, 2014)

monkeyboy said:


> In my experience, they have some horrendous quality control issues. I've bought 3 lights from them in total and all have had minor issues.
> 
> 1) Quark 2 x 123 Ti XP-G, had PWM flicker on the lower modes when it was specifically advertised not to.
> 2) Quark 2 x 123 XP-G, had missing moon mode
> ...



I gave up completely on 47 after I bought an exhaustive compilation of Quark mini at once years ago (AA titanium and AA neutral, CR123 Ti, Warm, N). Of the 5 lights, only the AA and N one worked decently, the others were impossible to operate (the twisty had threads to bad that you always triggered multiple switchings).

I send the CR123 titantium back and the replacement was worth. So I just stopped bothering.


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## BillSWPA (Aug 29, 2014)

reppans said:


> Thanks for chiming in. Given the exceptionally broad range of flashlights you cover, and I can only imagine the volume as well, you really can't ask for a better, independent, fully-informed, 47s endorsement and opinion on the flashlight market than you. Your comment is enough to end the debate - period.
> 
> So, that being said, how about ending other similar perpetual debates and bickering with just about every other manufacturer out there by letting us see your "below-average-quality-list" . Course if you consider it to be unethical or imprudent for a man in your position to dis any of your suppliers.... well then, you could just tell your "above-average-quality-list" instead .
> 
> (BTW, your company's customer service is EXCELLENT and keeps me coming back everytime )



You have a way to get similar information.

Go to this thread: http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb...-you-have-made&highlight=best+worst+purchases

Use the "find" feature in the "edit" menu of your web browser to search each of the 12 pages for a specific brand. See how many "best" and "worst" ratings you find.

With respect to FourSevens, you will find a high number of "best" ratings and very few "worst" ratings. You will see similar results for some other manufacturers. Still other manufacturers have a high number of "worst" ratings.

While the results will not be scientific precision, I believe you will find them to be a reasonably accurate representation of the bigger picture.


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## thedoc007 (Aug 29, 2014)

BillSWPA said:


> You have a way to get similar information.
> 
> While the results will not be scientific precision, I believe you will find them to be a reasonably accurate representation of the bigger picture.



I do not share your faith that searching one specific thread for self-reported, non-randomized data will get you an accurate picture. It has been shown time and time again that anecdotal data is often misleading. And that thread is such a tiny sample, even within the small niche of CPF members, that it would take a miracle for it to be representative of the total market/quality/etc.

Even if that wasn't a problem, the best/worst thread would still not be very useful for general reliability. Only the good and bad stuff will stand out...what about the mediocre lights? Maybe they have a minor issue, and they aren't on the thread at all...but certainly this information is still necessary to determine the relative quality/reliability of a given brand.


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## WalkIntoTheLight (Aug 29, 2014)

Yes, asking the Internet to tell you what's great and what sucks is just asking for random noise.


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## BillSWPA (Aug 29, 2014)

Unless multiple sources confirm essentially the same thing, which is the case here.


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## yz kid 69 (Aug 29, 2014)

I am hoping by the end of the year 4sevens makes an upgraded version of the MMU-X3. Same size just more Lumens.


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## reppans (Aug 29, 2014)

BillSWPA said:


> You have a way to get similar information......



Thank you Bill, yes of course I'm aware of that thread, as well as countless other "most reliable" and "best customer service" threads where, IMHO, 47s seems quite favorably represented - it's behind most of the high quality US manufacturers, but ahead of most of the other Chinese manufacturers... actually right where I think they've intentionally positioned themselves in the market with their Asian-style cost, performance, and features married to a US-style warranty and customer service business model. But as has been said, it is just anecdotal information, no better or worse than any of us posting in this thread. Nevertheless, the consistency of opinions in those threads is certainly compelling, and consistent with my own 47s experience.

IMHO, though, Goinggear (with their broad product coverage, and likely high market share/volume) has the most comprehensive unbiased current industry/market information possible - I can't imagine finding more statistically-accurate industry-wide data anywhere. I'd still love to take a look through HIS books, and Marshall could probably sell some of that very useful market data back to his supplies - there're ways do it without crossing any ethical or confidential barriers - we used to do it among competitors my industry. 

I always wonder how I can own (and gift) so many 47s products without a failure, and yet others seem to have such a high percentage. Is it just my good luck, and their bad luck? Two reasons I can think of are: 

1) Quality has improved - I don't what year David broke off from being a Fenix dealer, but my flashaholism started with an XPG-S2 Quark (circa 2010/11?), while I see some others commenting on earlier emitters/lights. Look at ZL, in 2012 CPF had multiple "ZL reliability polls" running at the same time.... and now, it's down to a more normal (?) failure thread here and there. I certain value Marshall's comment with current product/massive sample size well over other member's anecdotal comments with what may be historic product/minuscule sample size. 

2) 47's own efforts at increasing modularity, user serviceability, and broad voltage support (all of which I love) can also be its Achilles heel to the uninitiated. For example, how many flashlight failure threads are resolved by simply tightening down the retaining ring in the clicky? Well, Quarks have the additional newbie "circuit breaker" being the retaining collar for the clip. And LOL, there was a recent thread where the OP lost TWO Quarks in a row, because the clip bent open - I asked him why he didn't just bend it back (you don't need tools to remove Quark clips) - turns out he didn't know the o-ring must be removed before the clip collar! The ability to swap battery tubes generation after generation naturally makes for some looser thread tolerances - don't screw/unscrew the head enough, and you will get flickering and random mode changes. How many folks have tried running 2xCR123s on a low voltage Quark head, or running a Li-ion in a Mini too long at max because it happened to be one of the few lights that supported the cell (ie, didn't go direct drive) at the time? etc., etc..

I find it very interesting that Foursevens and Zebralight (of the Chinese-manufacturers) seem to draw such highly polarized opinions from people (myself included) - you either love them, or you hate them, and these two manufacturers couldn't possibly be further apart as polar opposites. They would make an excellent case study for B-school .


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## WalkIntoTheLight (Aug 29, 2014)

reppans said:


> I find it very interesting that Foursevens and Zebralight (of the Chinese-manufacturers) seem to draw such highly polarized opinions from people (myself included) - you either love them, or you hate them, and these two manufacturers couldn't possibly be further apart as polar opposites. They would make an excellent case study for B-school .



FWIW, I like both of them. Neither are perfect, but they're both pretty good for different reasons.


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## radiopej (Aug 30, 2014)

I've got an Atom AL that I really like. Bit annoying that my RCR123s (protected and non-protected) don't work perfectly and that the O-ring occasionally gets snagged in the twisty. However, I think it's a very well made light overall and I love it as a necklace light. Would've liked it in neutral, but for a cool white it has a great tint. So for my only 47s, it does what the box says. 

The headlamp kit is cool too, though it doesn't work when you add a split ring to the light.


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## Danielsan (Sep 2, 2014)

foursevens was an interesting brand a few years ago, when the LED hype started. Now foursevens seems to be a bit behind the moon with their models cause the models are a bit boring to me, all looking the same and a bit conservative. Its totally not like nitecore, sunwayman, jetbeam etc.. But the foursevens prices remained premium which is also a reason why ppl overlook the brand a bit. The only light that interests me is the one with the big 26650. They need more models, unique models, unique designs. The old quarks getting boring


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## GoingGear.com (Sep 2, 2014)

reppans said:


> Thanks for chiming in. Given the exceptionally broad range of flashlights you cover, and I can only imagine the volume as well, you really can't ask for a better, independent, fully-informed, 47s endorsement and opinion on the flashlight market than you. Your comment is enough to end the debate - period.
> 
> So, that being said, how about ending other similar perpetual debates and bickering with just about every other manufacturer out there by letting us see your "below-average-quality-list" . Course if you consider it to be unethical or imprudent for a man in your position to dis any of your suppliers.... well then, you could just tell your "above-average-quality-list" instead .



Honestly, we don't have any major issues with any company. If we did, I wouldn't continue buying from them since we are the intermediary for the warranty service and receive zero compensation from most manufacturers for any of our warranty service costs.

If there are any quality issues, they are quickly resolved in future batches. Companies that we deal with have no interest in creating poor quality products. They have to deal with customer service issues, warranty replacements, brand image, etc. Some might slip through the cracks, but more often than not we see the problem being fixed like with the Nitecore EA4 switch.



> (BTW, your company's customer service is EXCELLENT and keeps me coming back everytime )



Thanks!


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## cland72 (Sep 2, 2014)

reppans said:


> Yeah 47 lights have their issues, but the *Malkoff*, Peak, Zebralight, Eagletac, Olight, and ThruNite issues are worse... at least for my needs, and I test my light for output and runtime.



Wut? Please describe the worse Malkoff issues.


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## Norm (Sep 2, 2014)

cland72 said:


> Wut? Please describe the worse Malkoff issues.


Let's not go OT talking about other manufactures but from personal experience nothing is too much trouble for Gene to fix, never had a problem with Malkoff his quality and support is primo, as for Peak who I've purchased many lights from I'd have to say similar. 

Back on topic please. 

Norm


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## rickypanecatyl (Sep 4, 2014)

There's good info on the internet = you just have to know how to look. I think its pretty cool and helpful that going gear chimed in; a big dealer like them logically would have a better idea than average of the big picture of a lights reliability. Of course they could intentionally skew that and praise a cheap light they made more profit on but I doubt they'd do that. They offered to handle the warranty work on a broken Thrunite for me purchased from BJ!  I see them as a long term relationship dealer.

I use my lights in extremely harsh situations and my only input here is I bet I've broken more lights than the average customer around here!  With me, Nitecores average a week, Fenix 2 weeks for a headlight or 2 months for a regular light, Eagletacs 6 months and 4 7's a year!


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## holygeez03 (Sep 4, 2014)

rickypanecatyl said:


> I use my lights in extremely harsh situations and my only input here is I bet I've broken more lights than the average customer around here!  With me, Nitecores average a week, Fenix 2 weeks for a headlight or 2 months for a regular light, Eagletacs 6 months and 4 7's a year!



Could you be more descriptive about the environment in which you use your lights? How are they breaking that often? Is it due to chemicals, drops/smashes, or water submerging? I'm just curious...

It sounds like you might be the rare case that could get value out of one of the more expensive light manufacturers that build things to be "bomb-proof"... versus constantly breaking the more common stuff.


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## Kingfisher (Sep 6, 2014)

Got a couple of mini 47's lights and never had any problems. Great little pocket lights. Picked up this nice titanium whistle this week:


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## Xak (Sep 6, 2014)

Warm tints, GITD tail switches, and no blinkies in the quark pro please. Wish 47s would get a list from flashaholics that want warm tints and do a run of them for us! C'mon, do us a solid!


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## rickypanecatyl (Sep 7, 2014)

holygeez03 said:


> Could you be more descriptive about the environment in which you use your lights? How are they breaking that often? Is it due to chemicals, drops/smashes, or water submerging? I'm just curious...
> 
> It sounds like you might be the rare case that could get value out of one of the more expensive light manufacturers that build things to be "bomb-proof"... versus constantly breaking the more common stuff.



I work for an NGO doing relief work in war/disaster areas. I spend 3/4 of my time in jungle/rain forest type environment - 85-100 def F with 65-95% humidity. I get around mostly on dirt bikes - I've done a couple thousand km nearly the whole length of Myanmar for instance and I think one of the harshest things (it kills most of my lights) is vibration. I ruck most of my gear in a "top box" on the back of the bike. Throw a couple of lights in there and usually in 5 hours if not wrapped in something the heads have come unscrewed etc.

I think the main thing is I just don't have time to baby them. If its in my pocket and rains and can't be bothered with that; if I'm on my belly crawling thru the mud (probably to keep someone from shooting at me) I can't be bothered to wonder, "Oh! I wonder how Mr. Eagletac is doing?"

Another tough thing on the lights is I have to grab my gear often and bug out in a few minutes and will often throw everything into a rucksack go. There's an example where one light might be better than 2 as 2 can kill each other in the bag.

I don't know - I may be clumsier than average too? I drop my lights often - that could be because I've usually got a slippery mixture of sweat and deet on my hands! Oops... never really thougth about the deet until - right now!


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## Shuutr (Sep 8, 2014)

I have yet to be disappointed in a foursevens light yet so they haven't strayed too far from the path. I think it may be difficult to get too creative on design when a big win for them is the minimalist approach to size. I'm okay with the slow and steady approach to new models as it allows me to afford to buy the models I want before they show me something else I cannot live without.


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## kaichu dento (Sep 8, 2014)

One thing that happened with many of us who were strong initial supporters was the way in which neutral/warm tints were treated and the repeated insistence that the low sales numbers were indicative of lack of interest even among CPF'ers, when virtually every time a neutral/warm option was released, the release was so slow that wide saturation was allowed to take place before the release and it doesn't take any market savvy at all to understand that when a product is highly anticipated, its initial release will have higher sales than a follow up release will.

We've only got so much money to work with, and new and other exciting products allow the attention to wander.

If the neutral/warm tints had been the initial release the numbers would have been inarguably different.

Another off-putting aspect has been the way in which responses from the company have been put to us, in marked contrast with other makers, a few of which come to mind immediately being McGizmo, HDS, Modamag and especially GuyWithNoName.

I've got 4Sevens lights that I'll never get rid of, but never pay attention to new releases, largely due to the above reasons, and also the poorly executed forced-battery purchase issue a couple years ago.


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## richardcpf (Sep 8, 2014)

I only have two 47 lights, Quark AA and 123 both Ti. Both green tinted and put out a somewhat disgusting beam (Color-wise). Never used them for real and they have been on the shelf for couple years now. I do not regret paying $85 each, but only because they are Ti.

In my opinion 47 failed to become one of the best selling brand because of:

1. Over empathizing the neutral beam. Most people looking for neutral tint are collectors or already have lots of CW lights. The market isn't that big. Most first time buyer or the casual owner will take the CW.
2. Their philosophy vs real product delivery: like myself lots of people waited a long time with very high expectations for the first wave of products, but many were disappointed because of the green tint. I believe many lost interest in their products because of that.
3. Brand and Product name are complex, hard to spell/search. FourSevens, Maelstrom, Quark, Preon, These are hard to spell and search for, I know where the 47, quark and maelstrom name came from, but it makes no sense for most people. If you look at fenix or nitecore lineup, the models can be easily identified by their name.
4. They started as a "custom" flashlight manufacturer with limited production and few models based on customer feedback and wanted to quickly become a big brand, but they weren't ready yet. I think they should have either produced something premium that meets everyone's expectations (torchlab, elzetta, mbi, etc), or go big and refresh the whole lineup once every year with new features that no other brand has. (Take klarus and armytek for example.). Right now I think their products are a bit behind the competition.


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## Mr. LED (Nov 23, 2015)

I'm a Foursevens customer since 2010 and currently own 10 lights from them. Little use, never abused.
5 of them failed and had to be sent back for replacement

I'm sick of this. Not buying again from them.


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## holygeez03 (Nov 23, 2015)

Well, the good news is that they are still under warranty.

Are any of your lights from a neutral or Hi CRI run? If so, I may be interested in buying them from you...


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## magellan (Nov 23, 2015)

Just my two cents. I certainly have more expensive, better made lights than 4Sevens. But I'm very fond of the CR2 format. 4Sevens makes two models, both around 40 bucks (not counting things like the Ti version), which I'm very happy with, both cheap enough so that I just buy five of each, and if one malfunctions, I drop it or lose it, or whatever, I don't care, I've got a cheap replacement. Meanwhile, my more expensive CR2's like my Muyshondt Ions and Aeons, Surefire Titans, Jil Lite J2's, Lummi's, Exolions, Katokichi Ichishiki's, and Photon Fanatic Task Lights and CR2 mokume gane customs remain shelf queens.


----------



## Vox Clamatis in Deserto (Nov 23, 2015)

leon2245 said:


> Really minor point, but another tough thing about their branding is all the different ways "foursevens" has been expressed (numbers, letters, various combinations between the two with & w/o dashes), I've seen it all different ways on the internet & information is less consolidated by search terms. By now google at least might account for that and still retrieve everything even if not at the same priority, but as many times I've been to their website, I still forget every time. I'm pretty sure at some point foursevens themselves has even mixed it up if not outright changed it.



I agree, the branding is somewhat unfortunate, I've had exactly the same confusion myself. :thinking:



reppans said:


> 47's own efforts at increasing modularity, user serviceability, and broad voltage support (all of which I love) can also be its Achilles heel to the uninitiated. For example, how many flashlight failure threads are resolved by simply tightening down the retaining ring in the clicky? Well, Quarks have the additional newbie "circuit breaker" being the retaining collar for the clip.



Yep, the ring in the clicky and the collar for the clip were constant sources of failure in the several classic Quarks that I bought. David even came out with a custom tool to tighten the clicky ring, I've still got a couple.

Anyway, as David said, one of the reasons the classic Quarks were discontinued was the settlement of Surefire's claims of patent infringement:



> We're here to stay. Quarks are discontinued for two reasons. 1) it was part of a settlement agreement with surefire and 2) to make way for the next generation of Quarks in Q2.



http://www.cpfmarketplace.com/mp/sh...Out-of-Stock&p=4867104&viewfull=1#post4867104

A closed CPF thread on SF's lawsuits filed in 2012 is archived here:

http://www.cpfmarketplace.com/mp/sh...e-files-lawsuits-claiming-patent-infringement

David states that he's gone to a 'clean room' design procedure to preempt future infringement claims. Perhaps this has curtailed some of the momentum 47's had in LED light innovation a few short years ago.


----------



## sidecross (Nov 23, 2015)

Danielsan said:


> foursevens was an interesting brand a few years ago, when the LED hype started. Now foursevens seems to be a bit behind the moon with their models cause the models are a bit boring to me, all looking the same and a bit conservative. Its totally not like nitecore, sunwayman, jetbeam etc.. But the foursevens prices remained premium which is also a reason why ppl overlook the brand a bit. The only light that interests me is the one with the big 26650. They need more models, unique models, unique designs. The old quarks getting boring


The only light that I might be interested in is a FourSevens Maelstrom MMU-X3 because it uses a 26650 standard battery, but no one has this particular light for sale. I am hoping for more manufacturers to put out flashlights using the lithium 26650 battery.


----------



## Chauncey Gardiner (Nov 23, 2015)

Three new offerings from FourSevens this month. 






4sevens said:


> We're happy to announce our PK and FOURSEVENS collaboration the Knight and Paladin series of lights. This was the result of over a year of development to bring you the most unique EDC light on the planet. Through PK's genius design combined with FOURSEVENS engineering and manufacturing we present to you a flashlight that is beautiful in form, functional in design, and brighter and smarter than any flashlight in it's class.


 





The AAA powered Mini-Bolt. 






Four new Preons. 

There will be a new light announced next week.

~ Chance


----------



## WalkIntoTheLight (Nov 23, 2015)

I used to be a big fan, but all 4sevens seems to come out with lately is weird stuff. I keep checking back every few months, just to see if they change their ways, but I haven't bought anything since the old Quarks.

Maybe I'll change my mind if they ever come out with a neutral or warm white, in some model that makes sense.


----------



## Chauncey Gardiner (Nov 23, 2015)

WalkIntoTheLight said:


> I used to be a big fan, but all 4sevens seems to come out with lately is weird stuff. I keep checking back every few months, just to see if they change their ways, but I haven't bought anything since the old Quarks.
> 
> Maybe I'll change my mind if they ever come out with a neutral or warm white, in some model that makes sense.


 

One man's weird, is another man's wonderful. FourSevens is currently offering 30 + different flashlights. Everyone should be able to find one that meets their needs. :thumbsup:

~ Chance


----------



## RUSH FAN (Nov 23, 2015)

Excited about their new Preon 1 and 2!
Hopefully, they will also put out a titanium version.


----------



## etc (Nov 23, 2015)

I don't think it's just 47 specificially, Malkoff is the same way. As an example. I think the LED innovation has stagnated kind of, in the last few years. For example, all of my drop-in Malkoff modules are a few years old, with the oldest being 6 or more. The point being there is no quantum leap like we experienced about 10 years ago, going from dim 30-lumen lights to 200-300 and eventually 500+ lumens.

I remember about being excited about Fenix lights circa 2007, not anymore, it's really the same thing. 

I have just one 47 lite I got a year ago and hardly used, it's an emergency device.

We hit a plateau.


----------



## fnsooner (Nov 23, 2015)

RUSH FAN said:


> Excited about their new Preon 1 and 2!
> Hopefully, they will also put out a titanium version.



And throw us tint snobs a bone with a couple of neutral/warm options. Please David, for old times' sake?


----------



## KeepingItLight (Nov 24, 2015)

Chauncey Gardiner said:


> One man's weird, is another man's wonderful. FourSevens is currently offering 30 + different flashlights. Everyone should be able to find one that meets their needs. :thumbsup:
> 
> ~ Chance



Okay. I need neutral white.


----------



## Jose Marin (Nov 24, 2015)

Atom AO neutral


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## Chauncey Gardiner (Nov 24, 2015)

KeepingItLight said:


> Okay. I need neutral white.



:laughing: I didn't write FourSevens could meet all your needs. I have a couple of their neutral lights, and No, you can't buy them from me.

~ Chance


----------



## holygeez03 (Nov 24, 2015)

Based on its retro/steam-punk vibe, I would say a warm emitter would make sense for that PK light... in order to make it seem like an old incandescent.


----------



## Mr. LED (Nov 24, 2015)

holygeez03 said:


> Well, the good news is that they are still under warranty.
> 
> Are any of your lights from a neutral or Hi CRI run? If so, I may be interested in buying them from you...



Well, the bad news is I live in Brazil, and dealing with sending the lights to USA for warranty and then receiving them back and paying taxes again, makes the lights cost twice as much.

Unfortunately, all of the neutrals failed and were replaced by cool whites. Bummer.


----------



## holygeez03 (Nov 24, 2015)

You might be able to sell them in a lot to someone in the marketplace... then you can recoup some funds and the buyer can deal with getting them repaired and potentially create a good deal for himself.


----------



## Mr. LED (Nov 24, 2015)

I'll just keep them and wait for each one to die (which eventually will happen), then just throw away in disgust. I don't have cash to buy new lights now.


----------



## holygeez03 (Nov 24, 2015)

Based on your post history.. it seems like you were buying Quarks and modding them (swapping emitters)... if that is the case, you can't blame the manufacturer if they malfunction.


----------



## Mr. LED (Nov 24, 2015)

ME? Modding and swapping emitters? Never did that!

Where did you get that idea?


----------



## Mr. LED (Nov 24, 2015)

Oh, there was a post a long time ago where I mentioned I was willing to do that, but never carried further. Never opened one of my Quarks.


----------



## wacbzz (Nov 24, 2015)

fnsooner said:


> And throw us tint snobs a bone with a couple of neutral/warm options.



This is why I posted the as-of-yet still unanswered question about whether the old heads will fit on the new bodies. I have two of the Preons that Craig did a run of (with the 219B LED) that would be awesome on the new body.


----------



## Chauncey Gardiner (Nov 24, 2015)

Sorry wacbzz, I don't know if they'll fit or not. I was hoping someone from 4-7's would answer you. I have a P1 in the mail. Hopefully it'll arrive tomorrow, but I don't have an early model one to check with. Hey! Why don't you send me yours? :naughty:

~ Chance


----------



## Woods Walker (Nov 24, 2015)

When 4/7 first appeared I was skeptical of the features aka moonlight mode and the UI. The gear grew on me for its simple lines like the old L2D etc etc. 4/7s paid attention to issues like tail standing and properly centered LED. Also real numbers. They're always as bright and as low as claimed in fact often brighter IMHO . So always got one when on sale except paid full price for a neutral tinted AA mini that gave me years of service on the trail as a backup light and DIY lantern. In fact once helped me avoid a rattlesnake bite when it was pressed into service as a headlamp in a Nitecore headband. I have photos of that if the story seems too improbable and could post them if people are inclined though have in the past. I own around 5 with two being employed today. I am a bit disappointed over the new offerings though like looks of the new preon.


----------



## Chauncey Gardiner (Nov 24, 2015)

Woods Walker, 

There is a new, Outdoor section in CPF. I'm sure lots of members would enjoy your rattlesnake/4/7's experience. Please post it there. :thumbsup: 

~ Chance


----------



## 4sevens (Nov 24, 2015)

wacbzz said:


> This is why I posted the as-of-yet still unanswered question about whether the old heads will fit on the new bodies. I have two of the Preons that Craig did a run of (with the 219B LED) that would be awesome on the new body.



We have answered this on Facebook. Yes, the old head will fit on the new body! The older body parts however are not compatible.

Thanks
Reid


----------



## yellow (Nov 24, 2015)

the last Quark I got was an AA hi CRI XP-G model,
and luckily I did not hand my *Quark AA mini*, neutral, over to someone else.
Alone that it can be fed with AA or with 14500 ...

In fact that was the last light from 7777s that was worth to wait for
(and to keep)


----------



## wacbzz (Nov 24, 2015)

4sevens said:


> We have answered this on Facebook. Yes, the old head will fit on the new body! The older body parts however are not compatible.
> 
> Thanks
> Reid



Thank you Reid. 

Sorry Chance. :laughing:

Edit: just placed my order for the P2...


----------



## Chauncey Gardiner (Nov 24, 2015)

wacbzz said:


> Thank you Reid.
> 
> Sorry Chance. :laughing:
> 
> Edit: just placed my order for the P2...



Well sure, that's one option. :ironic: ............. :laughing:

~ Chance


----------



## recDNA (Nov 24, 2015)

Why can so many other companies offer Hi CRI models and still make a buck?


----------



## holygeez03 (Nov 24, 2015)

Some companies market to the masses (lumens race) and some market to enthusiasts (temp/tint/CRI/runtime/UI)... it seems like 47s started with the latter and then decided to move toward the former... and then there are the odd items like the PK and bolt-action that are aimed toward a very niche market?

Now that we are in the hundreds of lumens... it doesn't make sense to me that a neutral temp/tint isn't the default.


----------



## Crazyeddiethefirst (Nov 24, 2015)

I like my Four Sevens collection. Four Sevens has always been truthful with their OTF Lumens, and have the finest customer service out there. Having ended up with a fairly good size collection of lights, my Four Sevens remain dependable and fulfill the need at hand. Sure, it is fun to have thousands of lumens available, but in my day to work I had plenty of light to be able to do what I needed to. Rarely does a few months go by that I have not bought a new light from Four Sevens.http://i958.photobucket.com/albums/...04/7201D951-8751-42FE-A63A-E5574B909BA9_1.jpg
http://i958.photobucket.com/albums/...5-04/D814BAB7-5D13-4C00-9F4F-8B358785AF3D.jpg
http://i958.photobucket.com/albums/...5-07/DAA2BA7F-AB01-4D58-B0E3-7BC8810558AE.jpg
Sorry, I know there are two photos of my Preon Collection, but I realized after posting the first that my Toxic Green Preon's were missing. Did I mention that besides the 12% discount Four Sevens gives to all CPF members they have great sales?


----------



## Chauncey Gardiner (Nov 24, 2015)

That's what I'm talking about! 

~ Chance


----------



## magellan (Nov 24, 2015)

Nice collection of 4-7's!

I used to have one of those chests.


----------



## Woods Walker (Nov 25, 2015)

Chauncey Gardiner said:


> Woods Walker,
> 
> There is a new, Outdoor section in CPF. I'm sure lots of members would enjoy your rattlesnake/4/7's experience. Please post it there. :thumbsup:
> 
> ~ Chance


----------



## Woods Walker (Nov 25, 2015)

For years the 4/7 mini XP-E neutral was one my favorite little 1XAA light.

DAY:





Night:


----------



## kaichu dento (Nov 25, 2015)

Chauncey Gardiner said:


> The AAA powered Mini-Bolt.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


These 2xAAA lights have me really interested. 

Other than my incandescent E2E my Preon 2 is the only 2x battery light I have and I really like the design upgrade.

Bolt action light, they should market them together with Remington. I'm getting one.


----------



## BugoutBoys (Nov 25, 2015)

I am really interested in their 15,000 lumen light panel thing


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## Chauncey Gardiner (Nov 26, 2015)

Introducing the world's smartest flashlight. 




Bluetooth compatible 



~ C.G.


----------



## Woods Walker (Nov 26, 2015)

Chauncey Gardiner said:


> Introducing the world's smartest flashlight.
> 
> 
> ~ C.G.



I was watching the video before eating the Turkey. I did kinda chuckle about the 3 ways people supposedly deal with not knowing the battery level. I guess carrying another battery has never been done. That said I like this new light the best. I really like being able to set it for a certain runtime regardless of battery power (adjusts brightness), I liked the lost flashlight finder. I always misplace stuff and that might be useful though no guarantee of recovery. I need to watch the video again but this is interesting. I would prefer if the tail switch would actually change modes but then we would be getting back to the old Quark IMHO (legal issue) and momentary on is often how I employ a tailcap with my SF lights so kinda used to that.

I just hope new guts got put in along with new brains as thinking maybe the original quark driver etc is getting a bit long in the tooth. Seems some other lights are doing better runtime on the same output levels these days. Still it's down right interesting.


----------



## Str8stroke (Nov 26, 2015)

C.G.,
I was able to resist all the lights they have recently released, however............The Smart Quark sucked me in. I had to pull the trigger on that thing. I know it has its limits right now, but it is a glimpse into the future of flashlights. I knew this was coming, and I wanted the first one. Can you imagine where we will be in 10 years?? This light will be vintage and look like a caveman light! lol


----------



## Chauncey Gardiner (Nov 26, 2015)

Woods Walker said:


> I was watching the video before eating the Turkey. I did kinda chuckle about the 3 ways people supposedly deal with not knowing the battery level. I guess carrying another battery has never been done. That said I like this new light the best. I really like being able to set it for a certain runtime regardless of battery power (adjusts brightness), I liked the lost flashlight finder. I always misplace stuff and that might be useful though no guarantee of recovery. *I need to watch the video again but this is interesting. I would prefer if the tail switch would actually change modes *but then we would be getting back to the old Quark IMHO (legal issue) and momentary on is often how I employ a tailcap with my SF lights so kinda used to that.
> 
> I just hope new guts got put in along with new brains as thinking maybe the original quark driver etc is getting a bit long in the tooth. Seems some other lights are doing better runtime on the same output levels these days. Still it's down right interesting.


 
Check the video at the eight minute mark. David changed the tail-cap function from Pro to Tactical using the app on his phone. oo:

~ Chance


----------



## fyrstormer (Nov 26, 2015)

holygeez03 said:


> I remember a period when I was constantly watching to see what 47's was up to... Now it doesn't seem like they have done much with their lineup in a long time... not to mention they were one of first manufacturers to really support the "serious" fanbase with neutral and high CRI offerings. I know they have already stated that neutral/high CRI just doesn't sell well enough to continue offering them... but it seems like it might still be worthwhile just to keep their reputation up within the industry.
> 
> For example, I just took a look at their website using their "Light Finder" to confirm my suspicion that they don't offer a Quark that uses an 18650... only the Maelstrom. I know they previously offered an 18650 tube that could be used to make a lego'd 18650 light, but I don't think that's offered anymore. Seriously, no 18650 pocket-sized light?
> 
> ...


In a nutshell, FourSevens realized they could make more money through high volume instead of high quality. There's 7 billion people on earth, they all have to deal with nighttime, and most of them don't really care (or know about) high-quality lighting and wouldn't pay for it even fi they did.


----------



## Chauncey Gardiner (Nov 26, 2015)

Also in a nutshell. I think FourSevens ten year warranty indicates a high level of quality. 

~ Chance


----------



## Chauncey Gardiner (Nov 26, 2015)

Str8stroke said:


> C.G.,
> I was able to resist all the lights they have recently released, however............The Smart Quark sucked me in. I had to pull the trigger on that thing. I know it has its limits right now, but it is a glimpse into the future of flashlights. I knew this was coming, and I wanted the first one. Can you imagine where we will be in 10 years?? This light will be vintage and look like a caveman light! lol


 
In ten years, perhaps we'll have some type of light emitting device built into our glasses. I think you're going to love your new light. Please let us know your thoughts after you've had time to get acquainted with your Quark Smart QSL. 

~ Chance


----------



## Greta (Nov 26, 2015)

fyrstormer said:


> In a nutshell, FourSevens realized they could make more money through high volume instead of high quality. There's 7 billion people on earth, they all have to deal with nighttime, and most of them don't really care (or know about) high-quality lighting and wouldn't pay for it even fi they did.



This post seems a bit trollish considering FourSevens has released several new _high quality _lights just within the past two weeks! But then I suppose "high quality" is in the eye (or hand) of the beholder. I hear some people even think that anything from China with the name "Fire" in it for under $20 is "high quality". :shrug:

Either way... please refrain from toeing the troll line so closely in the future. Thanks in advance... and Happy Thanksgiving!


----------



## fyrstormer (Nov 26, 2015)

Chauncey Gardiner said:


> Also in a nutshell. I think FourSevens ten year warranty indicates a high level of quality.
> 
> ~ Chance


All it indicates is they don't expect to get enough defective returns in ten years to significantly reduce their profits during that time. They could make it a 100-year warranty and it wouldn't matter if people don't bother to return them, either because they forgot about the warranty or because they'd rather get something else.

I owned a couple FourSevens lights. They were better than most of the junk you find at Wal-mart, but not by enough to persuade me to tolerate their obvious UI deficiencies, sloppy threading, and cheap emitter tints.


----------



## fyrstormer (Nov 26, 2015)

Greta said:


> This post seems a bit trollish considering FourSevens has released several new _high quality _lights just within the past two weeks! But then I suppose "high quality" is in the eye (or hand) of the beholder. I hear some people even think that anything from China with the name "Fire" in it for under $20 is "high quality". :shrug:
> 
> Either way... please refrain from toeing the troll line so closely in the future. Thanks in advance... and Happy Thanksgiving!


I haven't been keeping up with their releases lately, I just assumed the original poster's observation was accurate that FourSevens' lineup hasn't changed much lately, and I responded to it as such.

Trolling is posting with the specific intent to upset people -- something I very, very rarely do anymore, because I'm just not the smarmy young punk I used to be. However, I do tend to be blunt and unapologetic about my opinions, which has the unfortunate side-effect of upsetting people. The difference is that I wouldn't change what I post just to ensure that someone gets upset.


----------



## monanza (Nov 26, 2015)

What I love about long warranties is that by the time you need them, you no longer need them! The current crop of Foursevens lights is a very strong offering. Foursevens has always been about value (not just price). I have the PKs so far and I am in for the bolt mini and the Smart Quark. I missed the entire line of Ti minis:mecry:so I was hoping this year's models would prove interesting and so far I am not disappointed.


----------



## Greta (Nov 26, 2015)

fyrstormer said:


> I haven't been keeping up with their releases lately, I just assumed the original poster's observation was accurate that FourSevens' lineup hasn't changed much lately, and I responded to it as such.
> 
> Trolling is posting with the specific intent to upset people -- something I very, very rarely do anymore, because I'm just not the smarmy young punk I used to be. However, I do tend to be blunt and unapologetic about my opinions, which has the unfortunate side-effect of upsetting people. The difference is that I wouldn't change what I post just to ensure that someone gets upset.



I can appreciate that. However in this instance you admittedly posted without having all of the facts. And the post you quoted is over a year old. Sooooo... under all of those circumstances I'm sure you can understand why one would think your post had some kind of agenda. I guess that's something you'll have to be more aware of in the future... just sayin'...


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## Chauncey Gardiner (Nov 26, 2015)

I take it you don't watch football either.  My wife of 30 years is cooking her first Thanksgiving dinner. Up until this year, her mother has always hosted us. I'm staying out of the kitchen as much as possible; only venturing in for an occasional beer.  

Happy Thanksgiving fyrstomer.

~ Chance


----------



## Greta (Nov 26, 2015)

Chauncey Gardiner said:


> I take it you don't watch football either.  My wife of 30 years is cooking her first Thanksgiving dinner. Up until this year, her mother has always hosted us. I'm staying out of the kitchen as much as possible; only venturing in for an occasional beer.
> 
> Happy Thanksgiving fyrstomer.
> 
> ~ Chance



In general I hate cooking. And I especially hate holiday cooking - I end up slaving in the kitchen all day and everyone chows down in like 15 minutes and then I'm left to clean up the mess. Not much of a "fun time" for me. But this year I decided to make a nice simple Thanksgiving dinner for my husband, son and me. It was nice and we sat down at the table (something we don't do regularly) and talked. No TV, no phones, sleeping furkids under the table. We came up with the perfect letter for our 25 year old son to write to Santa... "Dear Santa, I haven't been completely good this year but I've been MUCH better than those ISIS (insert f-bomb) so here is what I would like for Christmas..." We think it will work!  

No football here - watching Despicable Me 2 and anything other than football or news. Getting ready now to dig into the Razzleberry Pie with Blood Orange Vodka infused whipped cream... with a side of vodka.

It has been a very nice day...


----------



## sidecross (Nov 26, 2015)

I had an interest in only one FourSevens and it was the Maelstrom MMU-X3 (1 x RCR26650) CREE XM-L2 1600 Lumen. I tried to contact two suppliers and was told by one they are no longer selling that light and the other has only reported it is back ordered.

I have no need for a flashlight that can communicate to a smart phone, nor do I need a 'pen light'. It would seem FourSevens has no need for me or products that I might use. And on Thanksgiving Day I am grateful that this is my only complaint.


----------



## Greta (Nov 26, 2015)

sidecross said:


> I had an interest in only one FourSevens and it was the Maelstrom MMU-X3 (1 x RCR26650) CREE XM-L2 1600 Lumen. I tried to contact two suppliers and was told by one they are no longer selling that light and the other has only reported it is back ordered.
> 
> I have no need for a flashlight that can communicate to a smart phone, nor do I need a 'pen light'. It would seen FourSevens has no need for me or products that I might use. And on Thanksgiving Day I am grateful that this is my only complaint.



First World problems... :sigh: 

Happy Thanksgiving!


----------



## sidecross (Nov 26, 2015)

Greta said:


> First World problems... :sigh:
> 
> Happy Thanksgiving!


Yes, happily a First World Problem!


----------



## 4sevens (Nov 26, 2015)

sidecross said:


> I had an interest in only one FourSevens and it was the Maelstrom MMU-X3 (1 x RCR26650) CREE XM-L2 1600 Lumen. I tried to contact two suppliers and was told by one they are no longer selling that light and the other has only reported it is back ordered.
> 
> I have no need for a flashlight that can communicate to a smart phone, nor do I need a 'pen light'. It would seem FourSevens has no need for me or products that I might use. And on Thanksgiving Day I am grateful that this is my only complaint.



I'm curious which supplier is that? 

We're cutting back on web-only-garage-operation dealers who are there to turn a quick profit rather than service the customers the way foursevens takes care of their customers. We would rather support more brick and mortar dealers who have REAL overheads to maintain - you know roofs over their heads, electricity bills, employee salaries...  Some brick and mortars have asked us to support them and limit the undercutting of some of these shade-tree dealers.  Not saying all of them are like this - just most of them. So the one who is no longer selling may be because we stopped supplying them.


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## 4sevens (Nov 26, 2015)

fyrstormer said:


> In a nutshell, FourSevens realized they could make more money through high volume instead of high quality. There's 7 billion people on earth, they all have to deal with nighttime, and most of them don't really care (or know about) high-quality lighting and wouldn't pay for it even fi they did.


Thats one broad sweeping generalization and major presumption from someone who has no experience in the R&D and tooling costs. For every product that we make there are more than 5 that were shelved. I have a shelf full of prototypes that have never seen the light of day. The recent launch of 5 new products represents elements from all those prototypes. Just the preon I have 5-6 prototypes between the previous version and this new version.

Your statement has now factual base and is indeed trollish as Greta as observed. I will not take the bait to debate against such a baseless statement. Mighty find of you to speak for and insult 7 billion people in one sentence. LOL


----------



## Woods Walker (Nov 26, 2015)

Chauncey Gardiner said:


> Check the video at the eight minute mark. David changed the tail-cap function from Pro to Tactical using the app on his phone. oo:
> 
> ~ Chance



Oh geez how did I miss that. Nice! Now I am nearly out of things to complain about. I will hold off for the reviews but guessing this might be my next 4/7 gear item.


----------



## 4sevens (Nov 26, 2015)

Woods Walker said:


> Oh geez how did I miss that. Nice! Now I am nearly out of things to complain about.


I'm sorry it won't toss salad and scramble eggs


----------



## Prepped (Nov 27, 2015)

I just pre-ordered the crap out of that Smart Quark. I'm so excited to get it. Looks absolutely amazing. Please release an 18650 version!

I can just see all other the other manufacturers that lurk the forums calling their tech departments telling them to make something like this. Late to the game. Foursevens will forever be remembered as the one who did it first!


----------



## Burgess (Nov 27, 2015)

In case anyone else needs it,

HERE is the LINK to David's video # 4 !


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eoI3qBTB3tk



:thumbsup:

:twothumbs

:goodjob:

_


----------



## Burgess (Nov 27, 2015)

VERY impressive capabilities !

Certainly on the Forefront of flashlight technology here.

:thumbsup:



David --

I would want to "program" my Smart Quark to

(for instance) ONLY use modes Moonlight and Medium !


Don't even cycle through anything ELSE !
Just those two modes !


Can we accomplish ? ? ?


----------



## Prepped (Nov 27, 2015)

Burgess said:


> VERY impressive capabilities !
> 
> Certainly on the Forefront of flashlight technology here.
> 
> ...



I agree. If we can reach this level of customization I'll be elated. My main gripe is that I have to press the mode button or tail cap twice to change modes. I wish I could change that!


----------



## sidecross (Nov 27, 2015)

4sevens said:


> I'm curious which supplier is that?
> 
> We're cutting back on web-only-garage-operation dealers who are there to turn a quick profit rather than service the customers the way foursevens takes care of their customers. We would rather support more brick and mortar dealers who have REAL overheads to maintain - you know roofs over their heads, electricity bills, employee salaries...  Some brick and mortars have asked us to support them and limit the undercutting of some of these shade-tree dealers.  Not saying all of them are like this - just most of them. So the one who is no longer selling may be because we stopped supplying them.


Illumination Supply answered my e-mail inquiry notifying me they will not be selling what I wanted and Going Gear has it on back order for at least one month. I wanted the Maelstrom MMU-X3 because of its simple but rugged interface; this is opposite of the direction of using a blue tooth interface. I still hope to see manufacturers create more 26650 flashlights. :thumbsup:


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## Burgess (Nov 27, 2015)

Note to David --

Couple more questions . . . .


Can we enable / disable the Memory Mode in Smart Quarks ?

That would be * WONDERFUL * to have that flexibility !
< hint hint >


Sometimes I want my light to Always start in Moon-mode.

Sometimes I want it to remember my previous setting.

Best of Both worlds !



and . . . .


Does this use PWM to achieve its " infinite dimming " capability ?


If so -- What is the PWM Frequency ? ? ?

Hope it's VERY fast !
< wink >



_


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## Chauncey Gardiner (Nov 27, 2015)

sidecross said:


> Snip ....... I wanted the Maelstrom MMU-X3 because of its simple but rugged interface; this is opposite of the direction of using a blue tooth interface. I still hope to see manufacturers create more 26650 flashlights. :thumbsup:



sidecross, May I inquire why you don't just order one from FourSevens?

~ Chance


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## Chauncey Gardiner (Nov 27, 2015)

Burgess,

Those are great questions and suggestions. Perhaps posting them in the Quark Smart Light thread, where the light has generated a lot of excitement, so more members could read them.

~ Chance


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## Burgess (Nov 27, 2015)

Oops !


Didn't know there * WAS * at Quark Smart Light thread !



:sigh:
_


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## Beamhead (Nov 27, 2015)

Burgess said:


> Oops !
> 
> 
> Didn't know there * WAS * at Quark Smart Light thread !
> ...


Happy Thanksgiving weekend Burgess :wave: this thread is polluted to begin with so post where you want.


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## Chauncey Gardiner (Nov 27, 2015)

Burgess said:


> Oops !
> 
> 
> Didn't know there * WAS * at Quark Smart Light thread !
> ...



No oops! Nothing to oops about. No need to sigh. Carry on. :laughing:

~ Chance


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## WalkIntoTheLight (Nov 27, 2015)

fyrstormer said:


> In a nutshell, FourSevens realized they could make more money through high volume instead of high quality. There's 7 billion people on earth, they all have to deal with nighttime, and most of them don't really care (or know about) high-quality lighting and wouldn't pay for it even fi they did.



I used to think they were going in that direction, based mainly on the fact they refuse to sell anything except cool white (because only flashaholics supposedly like neutral or warm), and that they hadn't made improvements to their lineup in awhile. They seemed more interested in mass-market stores.

But, recently they have come out with all kinds of very weird lights. I find it hard to imagine those designs have broad appeal, whether to Joe Sixpack or to flashaholics. So, I'm stumped.

I'm guessing they lost their original designer, who was responsible for all their great light designs in the past. But, I have no idea. All I know is that they have taken a right-angled turn in the past year or two, and not in a direction I find good.




4sevens said:


> Thats one broad sweeping generalization and major presumption from someone who has no experience in the R&D and tooling costs. For every product that we make there are more than 5 that were shelved. I have a shelf full of prototypes that have never seen the light of day. The recent launch of 5 new products represents elements from all those prototypes. Just the preon I have 5-6 prototypes between the previous version and this new version.



Well, perhaps you should go back to the basics. Design flashlights that are useful tools, with just enough features to make them useful tools. Design isn't about coming up with wild ideas and throwing them all at a target. A good design is about paring down features until it's perfect. Apple understands this: simple design, yet useful and elegant. (I'm not an Apple fanboy, I'm an Android fanboy, but I admit my iPad is better than all my other tablets.)


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## 4sevens (Nov 27, 2015)

WalkIntoTheLight said:


> Well, perhaps you should go back to the basics. Design flashlights that are useful tools, with just enough features to make them useful tools. Design isn't about coming up with wild ideas and throwing them all at a target. A good design is about paring down features until it's perfect. Apple understands this: simple design, yet useful and elegant. (I'm not an Apple fanboy, I'm an Android fanboy, but I admit my iPad is better than all my other tablets.)


The Quark Click and the New Preon does exactly that - functionality has been paired down to simple utility. On the other end of the spectrum the Quark Smart sits with all it's bells and whistles.

Innovation isn't about sticking the newest LED in their lights - and not even picking a specific LED (ie. nw) - anyone can do that. True design is taking a novel idea and taking it from ground up and coming up with an awesome product and that takes lots of consideration and time - more than you can every imagine - it's also an iterative process that spans across lots of time. The collaborations that we've chosen to run with are novel and have features we deem useful for certain segments - and as with anything new it will always get criticized.

We have never claimed our products will meet everyones need and never will. There is no such thing - you yourself are a prime example - you say you are an android fanboy but why in the world do you have an ipad? I am the original designer of foursevens and remain so. Every product we've every come up with solves a specific problem - something that the current market does not have a solution for - every product has at least one or more aspects that has a focal point with which the entire development process is centered on.

It's easy to make broad sweeping guesses in a forum anonymously - many of which just give me a chuckle because it shows how the poster has no idea what exactly goes into a product by the time it hits the market - at least products that have been designed with purpose, vision, and passion.

Happy Thanksgiving guys


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## sidecross (Nov 27, 2015)

WalkIntoTheLight said:


> I'm guessing they lost their original designer, who was responsible for all their great light designs in the past. But, I have no idea.



I too have no idea why Four Sevens have moved away from their 26650 battery Maelstrom series of lights; it was a no frills design, and if produced with care would be a work horse flashlight.

I think it is a mistake to abandon the Maelstrom design; I have read others like myself posting an interest in this type of flashlight.

As far as the 'blue-tooth' light and the development of the software to make it work, it is reason enough why the owner of Four Sevens wants to pursue this kind of enterprise. This still leave room for others to develop a work horse flashlight to full the vacuum that the demise of the Maelstrom has left open.


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## 4sevens (Nov 27, 2015)

sidecross said:


> I too have no idea why Four Sevens have moved away from their 26650 battery Maelstrom series of lights; it was a no frills design, and if produced with care would be a work horse flashlight.
> 
> I think it is a mistake to abandon the Maelstrom design; I have read others like myself posting an interest in this type of flashlight.
> 
> As far as the 'blue-tooth' light and the development of the software to make it work, it is reason enough why the owner of Four Sevens wants to pursue this kind of enterprise. This still leave room for others to develop a work horse flashlight to full the vacuum that the demise of the Maelstrom has left open.


I don't understand where this is coming from. The Maelstrom MMU-X3R is 26650 and is in full production. it's still a killer light and is selling like hotcakes.


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## sidecross (Nov 27, 2015)

4sevens said:


> I don't understand where this is coming from. The Maelstrom MMU-X3R is 26650 and is in full production. it's still a killer light and is selling like hotcakes.



The current Maelstrom Regen MMU-X3R is a move away from from a robust light. It uses a propitiatory battery, internal addition electronics for charging, and the five different modes that now makes this new version exceedingly more prone to break down than a more simple two stage push or lock down switch. 

I am glad it is selling like 'hotcakes' and I wish you and Four Sevens the best; I am just writing to express an opinion. :thumbsup:


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## 4sevens (Nov 27, 2015)

sidecross said:


> The current Maelstrom Regen MMU-X3R is a move away from from a robust light. It uses a propitiatory battery, internal addition electronics for charging, and the five different modes that now makes this new version exceedingly more prone to break down than a more simple two stage push or lock down switch.
> 
> I am glad it is selling like 'hotcakes' and I wish you and Four Sevens the best; I am just writing to express an opinion. :thumbsup:


Now I think you're just whining. We're definitely not moving away from Maelstrom, Regen, or 26650.


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## sidecross (Nov 27, 2015)

4sevens said:


> Now I think you're just whining. We're definitely not moving away from Maelstrom, Regen, or 26650.


Name calling that my comment is 'just whining' says quite a bit about an ability to have a discussion of different points of view. :thumbsdow

Your web site only lists Maelstrom Regen MMU-X3R; do you plan to be selling the Maelstrom MMU-X3 (1 x RCR26650) CREE XM-L2 1600 Lumen LED Flashlight?


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## 4sevens (Nov 27, 2015)

sidecross said:


> Name calling that my comment is 'just whining' says quite a bit about an ability to have a discussion of different points of view. :thumbsdow
> 
> Your web site only lists Maelstrom Regen MMU-X3R; do you plan to be selling the Maelstrom MMU-X3 (1 x RCR26650) CREE XM-L2 1600 Lumen LED Flashlight?



Not calling names. Just describing your rant. The X3R is far from "move away from a robust light," It is a step forward from the original MMU's which had one or two modes. The X3R adds the ability to recharge without a charger, lets you choose from one of 5 different UI's (you know you can choose one mode output?), and the output is doubled from the previous MMU. Thats progress. The original MMU's are find and I'm glad you like them. Progress isn't for everyone.

-D


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## insanefred (Nov 27, 2015)

Since 4sevens in posting in this thread...

Why are NW/high-cri are limited to limited runs or not at all? There is clearly an outcry for them here. Yes, I know it costs more money to switch out the LEDs and you are not going to make a ton of money doing it. But some flasholics here would pay the extra money for sure if need be. Perhaps even include some eneloops with some environmentally conscious packaging like you have in the past. Have it include a warm white Nichia high cri and call it the flashaholic hippy pack.




4sevens said:


> The Quark Click and the New Preon does exactly that - functionality has been paired down to simple utility. On the other end of the spectrum the Quark Smart sits with all it's bells and whistles.
> 
> I_nnovation isn't about sticking the newest LED in their lights - and not even picking a specific LED (ie. nw) - *anyone can do that.*_ True design is taking a novel idea and taking it from ground up and coming up with an awesome product and that takes lots of consideration and time - more than you can every imagine - it's also an iterative process that spans across lots of time. The collaborations that we've chosen to run with are novel and have features we deem useful for certain segments - and as with anything new it will always get criticized.
> 
> ...



Then I challenge you to do it.

You also talk about innovating, then why not try checking out other niche markets that are clearly lacking. A good example it lighting solutions for search and rescue, there are a lot brands out there that make some sad attempt at this but all they come up with are big and heavy that is very impractical they are also just bright and throwy that just blinds you when using them in fog, snow, smoke and even heavy rain. (that is why I will never buy cool white!). You also are constantly fiddling with pour UI with a lot of lights.
We need battery life, good combo of throw and spill, light weight (our already heavy packs and gear is enough as it is), reliable, good simple UI and affordable. 

Affordable because can you guess how much most SAR volunteers get paid? Yep that is big fat $0.


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## 4sevens (Nov 27, 2015)

insanefred said:


> Then I challenge you to do it.


I've answered that long-winded answer 2 or 3 times on CPF. I won't waste time to do it again. Maybe someone can dig up my reply. The biggest issue is I did just that - ran a special run of NW's due to the special request of CPF'ers - I even took a survey asking which model is preferred. The batch was a small batch and only about 20% were sold in 3 months - it took almost 2 years to move them all. Increasing price is not a solution - I doubt you guys would pay for that - we're not custom light makers - neither are we willing to charge hundreds of dollars for custom lights.


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## insanefred (Nov 27, 2015)

4sevens said:


> I've answered that long-winded answer 2 or 3 times on CPF. I won't waste time to do it again. Maybe someone can dig up my reply. The biggest issue is I did just that - ran a special run of NW's due to the special request of CPF'ers - I even took a survey asking which model is preferred. The batch was a small batch and only about 20% were sold in 3 months - it took almost 2 years to move them all. Increasing price is not a solution - I doubt you guys would pay for that - *we're not custom light makers* - neither are we willing to charge hundreds of dollars for custom lights.



You are not far off, though. Hint_: "optional programming" add $10

_Also, not to make excuses for myself or others, but when I see _*limited run*_. I run the other directio_n.
_


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## sidecross (Nov 27, 2015)

4sevens said:


> Not calling names. Just describing your rant. The X3R is far from "move away from a robust light," It is a step forward from the original MMU's which had one or two modes. The X3R adds the ability to recharge without a charger, lets you choose from one of 5 different UI's (you know you can choose one mode output?), and the output is doubled from the previous MMU. Thats progress. The original MMU's are find and I'm glad you like them. Progress isn't for everyone.
> 
> -D


Well we do agree that 'Progress isn't for everyone'. As far as who is expressing a 'rant' or 'name calling', it could easily argued that your comments could be called a 'rant'.

I wish the best to Four Sevens and will let the market place be a judge to whose products serve the public's needs.


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## Bullzeyebill (Nov 27, 2015)

OK guys, let's tone it down. Enough said, in a not to friendly manner. 4sevens has addressed issues, and just carrying on is looking like tolling, baiting. PM me with any concerns about my action.

Bill


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## Greta (Nov 27, 2015)

I think it's time to close this thread and take any further questions and/or concerns regarding FourSevens over to the FourSevens forum.

Thanks everyone for playing! :wave:


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