# Are your Flashlights EMP-protected?



## LetThereBeLight! (Apr 20, 2014)

An electromagnetic pulse [EMP], which could be the result of a solar flare or a nuclear weapon or an EMP weapon will destroy all electronics including our highly prized lights and thus they will not work.

You can protect your lights in what is called a Faraday Cage.

I am saving my pennies to buy a duplicate of some key lights that I can keep in my own Faraday Cage which is a Galvanized Steel trash can [with a lid!] whose inside, top and bottom [is to be] I have lined with cardboard.

No, I'm not a pessimist! But I DO want to be "prepared" in the event of one of the three aforementioned events.

I know there are other types of Faraday cages, but this one works for me best in terms of space utilization and cost-effectiveness! [My research said it must be one that is galvanized steel.]

We spend all this money on high-end lights so in my humble view I think it's worth a trip to Home Depot [or wherever] to buy a Galvanized Steel trash can with lid (inexpensive and with aforementioned cardboard) to protect our precious investments.

So yes, in the valley of darkness the flashaholic is king, but the EMP-protected flashaholic will be the ULTIMATE king!


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## jamesmtl514 (Apr 20, 2014)

I have a few incans kicking around. That's as prepared as o plan on being.


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## ven (Apr 20, 2014)

Help me understand this please,i am missing something......so if all electrics are out then you would be reliant on alki cells anyway or would have no means to charge cells up in 1st place.

It seems very OTT here (no offence at all) could see if live in/on an earthquake zone for precautions as have read with a bag of equipment for survival.


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## RepProdigious (Apr 20, 2014)

If all modern day electronics fail due to some catastrophic EMP event my flashlights not working will be the least of my problems....


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## Kitchen Panda (Apr 20, 2014)

LetThereBeLight! said:


> An electromagnetic pulse [EMP], which could be the result of a solar flare or a nuclear weapon or an EMP weapon will destroy all electronics including our highly prized lights and thus they will not work.
> 
> You can protect your lights in what is called a Faraday Cage.
> 
> ...



How much money is it worth spending on an extremely low probability event? Especially one where there's no point in your flashlights surviving if you don't. And how does a trash can and cardboard protect anything from an atom bomb? According to the movies, when the bomb goes off, we should climb inside our fridges for a short but thrilling flight. We might also consider stocking up on nitrolon-body flashlights in case some experimental aluminum-eating microogranism gets loose from the laboratory. 

Bill


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## mcnair55 (Apr 20, 2014)

I love this hobby,please continue just nipping out for a box of popcorn.Will stop at Maccys D,s on the way back for a happy meal and then a new Anorak is order of the day. :nana:


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## ven (Apr 20, 2014)

RepProdigious said:


> If all modern day electronics fail due to some catastrophic EMP event my flashlights not working will be the least of my problems....



That is my exact thoughts.............


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## wrf (Apr 20, 2014)

Kitchen Panda said:


> How much money is it worth spending on an extremely low probability event?...



Galvanized steel garbage can w/ cardboard ==> not much $$$
Backup flashlight ==> money well spent

OP is not directing anyone to do anything, just sharing what he is doing and why.
I'm not however saying the garbage can concept works.


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## idleprocess (Apr 20, 2014)

If you are close enough to an EMP that not only destroys grid-connected electronics (think miles and miles of power lines to act as an antenna) but also happens to destroy portable electronics with comparably minuscule surfaces to intercept that EMP, _you've got far larger problems_ - such as the low odds you survived the initial event.


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## mcnair55 (Apr 20, 2014)

idleprocess said:


> If you are close enough to an EMP that not only destroys grid-connected electronics (think miles and miles of power lines to act as an antenna) but also happens to destroy portable electronics with comparably minuscule surfaces to intercept that EMP, _you've got far larger problems_ - such as the low odds you survived the initial event.




And our beloved leaders and infrastructure personnel will be safely tucked up underground in a bunker and the rest of us can do one as far as they are concerned.


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## wrf (Apr 20, 2014)

RepProdigious said:


> If all modern day electronics fail due to some catastrophic EMP event my flashlights not working will be the least of my problems....





ven said:


> That is my exact thoughts.............




OP is not saying how to survive an EMP, just suggesting an idea for a flashlight's survival.
Your survival is up to you. If that doesn't require a flashlight, I respect that.


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## RetroTechie (Apr 20, 2014)

A (metal body) flashlight is _almost_ a Faraday cage by itself. Large scale EMP events would likely be caused by an atomic bomb, if you're close enough to that to fry your flashlights, you're probably close enough to die instantly (if lucky!) or shortly after.

But anyway: why a big thing like a trash can? A cookie tin isn't big enough to stash a useful set of backup lights in? Fwiw: I'd worry about other electronics like portable radios, walkie talkies, battery chargers, AC <-> DC inverters, tablet PC, _perhaps_ a few mobile phones etc. Remember grid / phone / internet would likely go down in such an event, so eg. a smartphone might have few uses left then.

And before that, surviving such a blast.  Radiation, water, food, transportation, fuel, first aid kit, etc, etc, ...., ...., ...., flashlights.


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## LetThereBeLight! (Apr 20, 2014)

ven said:


> Help me understand this please,i am missing something......so if all electrics are out then you would be reliant on alki cells anyway or would have no means to charge cells up in 1st place.
> 
> It seems very OTT here (no offence at all) could see if live in/on an earthquake zone for precautions as have read with a bag of equipment for survival.



Only Almighty God is going to be able to protect me from an earthquake, so when I lay me down to sleep, I pray the Lord my soul to take!


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## LetThereBeLight! (Apr 20, 2014)

RepProdigious said:


> If all modern day electronics fail due to some catastrophic EMP event my flashlights not working will be the least of my problems....



By no means am I one of those "doomsday preppers" but I have tried to store [off-site] three months of non-perishable food, some water, hygiene supplies, etc. etc.

Ironically, the only thing I have yet to purchase are candles! That's because I don't like them and they induce fears in me of a fire and burning down the house.


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## ven (Apr 20, 2014)

wrf said:


> OP is not saying how to survive an EMP, just suggesting an idea for a flashlight's survival.
> Your survival is up to you. If that doesn't require a flashlight, I respect that.




this is true :twothumbs

My original post
Help me understand this please,i am missing something......so if all electrics are out then you would be reliant on alki cells anyway or would have no means to charge cells up in 1st place.

It seems very OTT here (no offence at all) could see if live in/on an earthquake zone for precautions as have read with a bag of equipment for survival.


 I just see it as OTT ,i mean where does it end,may as well live in a nuclear bunker.......... if preserving a light is priority,surely communication or a way of finding it makes more sense to me,but off topic for the flashlights.

Just wonder why,because such an event ,food,water,some kind of communication,maybe cb providing some source of battery available.
Flashlight is very important,but before the 1700s or early 1800s there was no electricity...........people survived...........

Threat of nuclear weapons is the worry...... well for some,i dont go to bed each night worrying over something that may/may not happen.....

Only my personal view,interesting peeps different views/perspectives and i also respect those:thumbsup:


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## LetThereBeLight! (Apr 20, 2014)

Kitchen Panda said:


> How much money is it worth spending on an extremely low probability event? Especially one where there's no point in your flashlights surviving if you don't. And how does a trash can and cardboard protect anything from an atom bomb? According to the movies, when the bomb goes off, we should climb inside our fridges for a short but thrilling flight. We might also consider stocking up on nitrolon-body flashlights in case some experimental aluminum-eating microogranism gets loose from the laboratory.
> 
> Bill



Hi Bill, with respect, I think you misunderstand me. 

1.) A false flag event it not "an extremely low probability event", if you research the history of such.

2.) I am not talking of assuming of surviving a nuclear weapon, rather, I am speaking of the electromagnetic pulse such a weapon emits far beyond the ground zero zone! My bad[ness] for not making that clear, as I presumed it would be inferred. Obviously, as has been oft stated, the living will envy the dead, as the survivors will also have to deal with interrupted food supplies, radiation, disease, etc.

3.) As for your sarcastic "how does a trashcan..." comment, if you research the various types of Faraday cages, you will see that one of the solutions I researched and described above will indeed protect any electronics. The cardboard lining all around and top to bottom is, if I recall correctly, to help said electronics withstand a vibration and protect it from something else I can't quite recall at the moment (let us know if you look it up!)

That all being said, let us all pray today and hereafter that God protects us from the human beings who would resort to such nuclear [and other weapons] evil so as to destroy life itself, if not the means of sustaining what God created: life!


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## subwoofer (Apr 20, 2014)

This thread tickled me 

Buy expensive lights and put them straight into a bin!

My personal view is that, though useful in certain situations (usually man made ones like being in a large building when the power fails, or in the underground/subway/metro), they are certainly not a survival priority:

Attitude (the will to survive)
First aid
Shelter
Water
Fire (which can provide light)
Food

If the OP is afriad of candles, then there is little hope of surviving a situation that requires a Faraday cage to protect a flashlight!




LetThereBeLight! said:


> By no means am I one of those "doomsday preppers" but I have tried to store [off-site] three months of non-perishable food, some water, hygiene supplies, etc. etc.
> 
> Ironically, the only thing I have yet to purchase are candles! That's because I don't like them and they induce fears in me of a fire and burning down the house.



The best preparation of all is to learn to survive with nothing but the knowledge you carry. All possessions can be lost, so nothing is absolutely essential.


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## LetThereBeLight! (Apr 20, 2014)

RetroTechie said:


> A (metal body) flashlight is _almost_ a Faraday cage by itself. Large scale EMP events would likely be caused by an atomic bomb, if you're close enough to that to fry your flashlights, you're probably close enough to die instantly (if lucky!) or shortly after.
> 
> But anyway: why a big thing like a trash can? A cookie tin isn't big enough to stash a useful set of backup lights in? Fwiw: I'd worry about other electronics like portable radios, walkie talkies, battery chargers, AC <-> DC inverters, tablet PC, _perhaps_ a few mobile phones etc. Remember grid / phone / internet would likely go down in such an event, so eg. a smartphone might have few uses left then.
> 
> And before that, surviving such a blast.  Radiation, water, food, transportation, fuel, first aid kit, etc, etc, ...., ...., ...., flashlights.



Actually, Home Depot has several sizes of Galvanized Steel trash cans [please research how they differ from your "cookie tin"] in stock and I do not use the "big thing" trash can! I use a smaller one.

Of course, I have put other electronics in there as well, but I confined my post to the investment known as flashlights because only that is forum-specific. 

Yes, the grid would go down, but not our capacity to light up our night IF our lights were EMP-protected (assuming only a non-nuclear EMP knocks out our grid).

As for the either items you mention (water, food, etc.) I have most of those "covered" but obviously for a certain period of time. Nothing is forever!

You capesh?

Is the class now ready for a quiz?


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## ven (Apr 20, 2014)

LetThereBeLight! said:


> Only Almighty God is going to be able to protect me from an earthquake, so when I lay me down to sleep, I pray the Lord my soul to take!



I get it now,i see no reason to post in this thread again:tinfoil:
However i sit under the lord with my

And look forward to some of the replies with interest .

 and make sure i have a:candle:


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## LetThereBeLight! (Apr 20, 2014)

subwoofer said:


> This thread tickled me
> 
> Buy expensive lights and put them straight into a bin!
> 
> ...




Let me rephrase that: I am NOT afraid of candles! I just fear what an UNattended candle COULD do!

haha

Just like we are constantly reminded NOT to leave UNattended a light like the D25c at full blast.

Again, you infer what I did not imply: as for survival priorities, it would have been WAY off-topic for me to present a longer post on those OTHER "survival priorities" as they are not forum-specific.

Don't worry, I can take the heat-- I ain't leaving this kitchen!


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## subwoofer (Apr 20, 2014)

LetThereBeLight! said:


> "FACTS are the ENEMY of Truth!"



But such Truth is an illusion...


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## RetroTechie (Apr 20, 2014)

LetThereBeLight! said:


> 1.) A false flag event it not "an extremely low probability event", if you research the history of such.


Indeed... the world has been on the brink of a nuclear holocaust at least once or twice iirc (Cuba crisis, some false alarms that inspired movies like "War Games", etc). Personally I'm enough of a survivor that I'd try to _at least_ survive an initial blast, just to have a look on 'the day after'. One could always kill him/herself later...  That said: given a choice, I'll take tsunami / earthquake / zombie apocalypse any day over a nuclear holocaust. Flashlights might be useful in any case...



> The cardboard lining all around and top to bottom is, if I recall correctly, to help said electronics withstand a vibration and protect it from something else I can't quite recall at the moment (let us know if you look it up!)


Imagine a direct lightning strike to a car you're in. The metal body will provide a path for the electricity to flow, while you're safe in your seat. But if you touch that metal body over some length, your body _could_ become part of the conducting material(s).  

I suspect lining a metal can with non-conductive material has a similar purpose, to keep contents isolated from the outer shell through which large currents may be flowing @ some point.


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## dc38 (Apr 20, 2014)

Anorak for flashlights! That's just something mcnair55 might say :laughing: anyhow, you might find it productive to turn your glove compartments and other storage areas into faraday cages for mobile emp protection. I wonder if one could line their jacket pockets with foil blankets and insulation for some on person emp protection...


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## luxxlightsaber (Apr 20, 2014)

LetThereBeLight! said:


> Wow, you made my day, because NO ONE has EVER called me a "smart mofo"! haha
> 
> Yes, well-researched "enlightened" minds DO think alike, don't they? (wink wink)
> 
> ...


Lol!! False flag emp proof flashaholic in the house!!


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## dr. Chernobyl (Apr 20, 2014)

I dont have faraday cage but I trust that my maglite 6D wont fail if something bad happens


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## Kilroytheknifesnob (Apr 20, 2014)

The EMP threat is vastly overrated. According to the little research that exists, most modern electronics (including cars) would SURVIVE an nuclear-bomb generated EMP. The ones most likely to be affected would probably be destroyed by the blast. (Search for "National Capital Region Key Response Planning Factors for the Aftermath of Nuclear Terrorism" for a fascinating read) A flashlight would probably be one of the least likely devices to be damaged by an EMP, due to being almost entirely enclosed by metal. So, given the extreme unlikeliness of an EMP attack, and the very unlikely chance of your flashlight being damaged by that attack, I don't think it's worth more than a fleeting thought. I would suggest spending your time and money preparing for high-probability disasters like hurricanes, fires, earthquakes, extended power outages, snowstorms, etc. Maybe buy a solar charger instead of that trashcan?


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## RetroTechie (Apr 20, 2014)

dc38 said:


> I wonder if one could line their jacket pockets with foil blankets and insulation for some on person emp protection...


You missed the "green" option: how to harness that EMP energy to quick-charge one's batteries. Preferably an on-person, portable solution. Who needs solar chargers when EMP events lurk on the horizon...


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## mcnair55 (Apr 20, 2014)

RetroTechie said:


> You missed the "green" option: how to harness that EMP energy to quick-charge one's batteries. Preferably an on-person, portable solution. Who needs solar chargers when EMP events lurk on the horizon...



With ideas like that you should become a politician.Bravo sir.


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## LetThereBeLight! (Apr 20, 2014)

Kilroytheknifesnob said:


> The EMP threat is vastly overrated. According to the little research that exists, most modern electronics (including cars) would SURVIVE an nuclear-bomb generated EMP. The ones most likely to be affected would probably be destroyed by the blast. (Search for "National Capital Region Key Response Planning Factors for the Aftermath of Nuclear Terrorism" for a fascinating read) A flashlight would probably be one of the least likely devices to be damaged by an EMP, due to being almost entirely enclosed by metal. So, given the extreme unlikeliness of an EMP attack, and the very unlikely chance of your flashlight being damaged by that attack, I don't think it's worth more than a fleeting thought. I would suggest spending your time and money preparing for high-probability disasters like hurricanes, fires, earthquakes, extended power outages, snowstorms, etc. Maybe buy a solar charger instead of that trashcan?



For your information and edification:

1. According to the research I and many others have done, only pre-1972 cars would work after an EMP.

2. You must be a government DISinformation Specialist because ALL modern electronics will NOT survive, repeat: will NOT survive any EMP.

3. Likewise: Metal enclosures alone do NOT EMP-protect.

I suppose you did not know that two of our Generals refused our president's order to set off an EMP over the Northeast during GRID EX II this past Fall, an event during which our country permitted Chinese officials to learn of our grid infrastructure? See wwwdotthecommonsenseshowdotcom for recent articles on this and if you do some research you will find plenty of other confirming research. 

As for spending my "time and money preparing for hurricanes"...et. al., I already a sufficiently prepared for such and "flashlights", yes, FLASHLIGHTS, are my very LAST "prep" item, the research for which led me to candle power forums.

Oh, lest I forget, I already own several solar chargers which yes, are EMP-protected.

I found your post to be quite disinformationally dismissive but I think you will be relieved to know that an EMP will not harm your knife collection!

Lastly, you know something my fellow Candlepower posters? 

Those that THINK they know it all upset those of us who DO!

haha

Or as Gandhi put it, "Truth needs to be repeated as long as there are men who disbelieve it."

Amen!


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## mcnair55 (Apr 20, 2014)

http://thecommonsenseshow.com/

All we need now is Alex Jones to post on here.


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## dr. Chernobyl (Apr 20, 2014)

LetThereBeLight! said:


> For your information and edification:
> 
> 1. According to the research I and many others have done, only pre-1972 cars would work after an EMP.



I think cars made in eastern bloc countries after 1972 would also work without problem


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## RedLED (Apr 20, 2014)

mcnair55 said:


> Yes it is a total load of rubbish as you would never get the chance to find your bird cage or waste bin in the event and i would wager a cage with cardboard is as much use as an ashtray on a motorcycle.Best advice is those old fashioned mag lites that do not rely on electronics and get totally away from any towns asap as your car will not be going anywhere either. :nana:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Four minutes is more than enough time for me to set up photograph the event...the photographer for the end of the world, I want that job! I better use film!!!

I want a credential that states EOW PHOTO ALL ACCESS OF WHAT IS LEFT.

and, I bet St. Peter is going to tell me" We need them Right away!"


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## jabe1 (Apr 20, 2014)

I believe many of us have considered the impact of an EMP specific event, there are many previous threads on the subject. 
The bottom line is, as has already been stated, if you want to have an LED light working after such an event, build a faraday cage. 

Some of the light manufacturers believe their lights to be EMP safe, as there are different wavelengths of EMP to be concerned with, and flashlights are small enough to not be affected by what many consider would be the predominate of these. HDS and Peak are two manufacturers I remember mentioning this.

A quick search for EMP threads will give you a wealth of info.

RedLed, I think even a crayon written credential would suffice in the given situation....


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## idleprocess (Apr 20, 2014)

LetThereBeLight! said:


> 1. According to the research I and many others have done, only pre-1972 cars would work after an EMP.
> 
> 2. You must be a government DISinformation Specialist because ALL modern electronics will NOT survive, repeat: will NOT survive any EMP.


Pre-1972 cars are generally carbeurated affairs without ECU's nor significant reliance on other solid-state electronics, so small surprise "the literature" says they'll survive a massive EMP unphased. But the modern ECU is arguably the most hardened piece of solid-state electronics that's mass-produced and is surprisingly resistant to EMP effects _because it has to be_ thanks to the incredibly harsh electrical environment of the average automobile. Mix that hardening in with the relatively short wire runs in an automobile relative to grid-connected electronics and it's predicted that a large percentage will survive unaffected or might have to simulate sensor readings using use last-known ranges should some get zapped. Add in the fact that cars are still largely made of steel which serves to isolate the effects of EMP from sensitive electronics and odds are your average auto will be fine.

As for the alarmist _all electronics will be toast_ claim, I'd like to re-iterate that small battery-powered electronics have minuscule surface areas and even lesser lengths of wire to conduct the EMP into them. Put them in faraday cages if you want, but odds are they're going to come out unscathed regardless. If you have spare mains-powered electronics left powered down and disconnected, odds are they'll fire up after an EMP ... provided you have a substitute source of mains power to begin with.

The last section of this report addresses some of the myths surrounding EMP's in relation to the initial intense E1 event in a nuclear EMP.


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## pageyjim (Apr 20, 2014)

Would a protected battery be useless from the EMP because of the protection circuit? And if that is the case would an unprotected battery survive?
I have read differing accounts stating that a Faraday cage needs to be grounded to protect its contents.

Also if the grid goes down you wouldn't have to be near the "blast" or EMP to be affected.


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## Kestrel (Apr 21, 2014)

Six posts have been deleted for language and/or personal attacks. Please post respectfully.

This may not suprise the senior members here, but this topic has already been beat to death in previous threads.


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## cland72 (Apr 21, 2014)

I have spare P60s and P90s in a box.

/thread


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## TEEJ (Apr 21, 2014)

As mentioned the LENGTH of the device's electronics, and their orientation to the EMP event, etc, mean that small electronics that are not plugged in will have a HIGH probability of survival. The cord to the items is typically the vulnerability.

There are EMP "events" that do not include a nuclear bomb, say a neutron bomb, or, massive solar flares, cosmic radiation bursts, etc.

A big problem if there were an ATTACK typically, would be the machines used to MAKE generators, etc, to repair the infra structure, would also be taken out.

So, think wind and solar, and so forth - to recharge your cells.


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## Kestrel (Apr 21, 2014)

cland72 said:


> I have spare P60s and P90s in a box.


I have four unused P30's - perfect for running my three cell SureFires with 2xAA well into the next stone age. :nana:


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## RepProdigious (Apr 21, 2014)

dr. Chernobyl said:


> I think cars made in eastern bloc countries after 1972 would also work without problem



Im pretty sure there's plenty more modern cars (especially diesels) that will still run fine, especially if they were running at the time of the EMP and have not been turned off yet (just keep em topped up and dont turn em off :twothumbs )


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## StarHalo (Apr 21, 2014)

There's at least a dozen lengthy threads on this topic, be sure to search for plenty of reading. Some highlights:

- An ICBM attack may include an EMP-specific stage where a warhead is detonated ~120 miles over the target area; there would be no blast/heat/radioactive damage, but it would blackout multiple states underneath the detonation. This means you may still be subject to an EMP attack even if you live nowhere near where an actual nuclear blast occurs. 

- A working-or-not microwave, if grounded, is an excellent Faraday cage.

- Roughly two-thirds of all cars will survive an EMP attack.

etc.


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## Kilroytheknifesnob (Apr 21, 2014)

LetThereBeLight! said:


> For your information and edification:
> 
> 1. According to the research I and many others have done, only pre-1972 cars would work after an EMP.
> 
> ...


1. I'm sorry, you must have missed the part where I referenced a scientific research study stating that almost all modern cars are quite EMP resistant. If you could please cite your source of information, we could have an informed discussion here. Just for extra proof that you're completely wrong: http://www.empcommission.org/ start at page 112.


> We tested a sample of 37 cars in an EMP simulation laboratory, with automobile vintages
> ranging from 1986 through 2002. Automobiles of these vintages include extensive
> electronics and represent a significant fraction of automobiles on the road today. The
> testing was conducted by exposing running and nonrunning automobiles to sequentially
> ...


 2. I'm not sure you understand how an EMP actually damages electronics.
3. Yes, Metal enclosures kinda do protect against EMP. It's basic radio wave propagation theory, not voodoo. Again, cite your sources if you believe otherwise.


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## TEEJ (Apr 21, 2014)

RepProdigious said:


> Im pretty sure there's plenty more modern cars (especially diesels) that will still run fine, especially if they were running at the time of the EMP and have not been turned off yet (just keep em topped up and dont turn em off :twothumbs )



Its more the opposite, if OFF< they suffer little to no ill effects...but if RUNNING at the time of exposure then they suffer some effects, sometimes, if the EMP burst is strong enough, etc.



A microwave that's plugged in will not work well as a Faraday Cage, but, with the cord snipped off, they work well.


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## LedTed (Apr 21, 2014)

A galvanized steel trash can many help with EMP. But your cardboard liner many create ESD, sorry.


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## dr. Chernobyl (Apr 21, 2014)

basically any conductive mesh with small enough holes or metal plate will work, and you must ground it with short thick wires to good grounding system


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## idleprocess (Apr 21, 2014)

StarHalo said:


> - An ICBM attack may include an EMP-specific stage where a warhead is detonated ~120 miles over the target area; there would be no blast/heat/radioactive damage, but it would blackout multiple states underneath the detonation. This means you may still be subject to an EMP attack even if you live nowhere near where an actual nuclear blast occurs.
> 
> - A working-or-not microwave, if grounded, is an excellent Faraday cage.
> 
> ...


There are very likely a number of non-nuclear EMP weapons in the arsenals of most countries with modern militaries. Since concepts like the explosively-pumped flux compression generator are now widely-publicized, it's a pretty safe bet that there are other, nastier weapons out there waiting for the chance to disrupt a power grid without the political consequences and expense of setting off a nuke. ie, Boeing demonstrated a ... drone ... of sorts that could fry electronics within a given area at some range using a specialized focused microwave transmitter.


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## LetThereBeLight! (Apr 21, 2014)

Kilroytheknifesnob said:


> 1. I'm sorry, you must have missed the part where I referenced a scientific research study stating that almost all modern cars are quite EMP resistant. If you could please cite your source of information, we could have an informed discussion here. Just for extra proof that you're completely wrong: http://www.empcommission.org/ start at page 112.
> 
> 2. I'm not sure you understand how an EMP actually damages electronics.
> 3. Yes, Metal enclosures kinda do protect against EMP. It's basic radio wave propagation theory, not voodoo. Again, cite your sources if you believe otherwise.



I looked over this report. 

I actually do understand more than you think I do, but I digress.

First problem: it's dated 2004.

Since 2004, EMP weaponry (yes, our own country and others have EMP weapons: those designed to knock out electronics) has considerably become more sophisticated and advanced. 

EMP weapons have just ONE principal purpose: to make a country (its inhabitants, its infrastructure, its devices) "powerless", that is, to make those devices incapable of being reinvigorated, "re-juiced", if you will, and thereby affect the quality of life of those citizens or that country or that region.

Can those of us who have suffered Prolonged power outages as a result of Hurricane Sandy and who had to rely on gas-powered generators imagine their lives with a Permanent power outage resulting from an EMP-based weapon or some other unfortunate or similarly catastrophic event? 

Are gas pumps EMP-protected, for instance? I really don't know but I would presume they are not.

Second problem: our power grid infrastructure is as old as the hills. Many reputable sources state that a prolonged power outage of 3 months or more could cause the deaths, minimally, of 80% of our population.

Third issue: your language: when you write "Metal enclosures KINDA do protect against EMP..." [emphasis mine]-- by using the word "kinda" you thereby contradict the very specificity with which you emphatically state most electronics (cars, etc.) Will survive an EMP (weapon-based or otherwise).

No, I am not here to knock your confidence in keeping your flashlights Non-protected.

I am simply encouraging readers of this fine forum to decide for themselves one thing and one thing only.

Namely, that since they protect themselves with LIFE insurance, HEALTH insurance, and CAR insurance, that it is perhaps JUST as wise to spend an additional ten to fifteen bucks (much less in most cases, and it's just a one-time purchase) to "insure" the integrity of their flashlights with the cheapest electronic insurance known based on Faraday's hard work, which, in my [researched] case, is a small galvanized steel trash can that measures about 18 inches high.

It just seems more cost-effective, and rationally so, than pitting one expert against another, or one poster against another.

Lastly, with sincere respect to the esteemed credentials of the writers of the 2004 Report you cite, this is the way I think or reason: since the Warren Commission's Report continues to be a travesty of justice, and since the Kean Commission's report on 9/11 did not address at all the reason [or reasons] for what actually brought down the third (smaller) WTC building, please forgive me if I myself, personally, choose to believe that "one report does not fit all subsequent refined EMP technology or events".

Thank you for your response because the Report you cite seems impressive. 

But since neither of us knows the sophistication with which EMP weapons have been equipped in the ten years since that report's publication, I am erring on the side of "not knowing", and hence, I choose to EMP-protect. 

"Whenever you have eliminated the impossible, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truth." (Sherlock Holmes-- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle]


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## TEEJ (Apr 21, 2014)

The way I see it, I am more LIKELY to see an incan light damaged by dropping it, than to see an LED light ruined in an EMP event....given that EMP event involve induced currents, etc, that short devices (Flashlights for example) are essentially immune to. If the flashlight is OFF when the event occurs, its probably going to be fine...no matter what.

BTW - those cardboard liners for the metal cans are to (help) prevent CONTACT of metal items IN the can, from the fields of the can itself. Lets just say it is projected to increase the strength of the EMP event required to do damage.

FLASHLIGHTS are one of the least vulnerable things to worry about in this type of event though, so to stay on topic, you don't really need to do much of anything. 

Ordinary power failures due to overloading and heat, etc, solar flares, cosmic gamma bursts, storms, etc, are far more likely events that DO occur from time to time, and prepping for those makes a lot of sense.


After a while though, its like "ZOMBIES?!?!?! Really? And prepping for fun instead of with a real priority-based plan.


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## cland72 (Apr 22, 2014)

Kestrel said:


> I have four unused P30's - perfect for running my three cell SureFires with 2xAA well into the next stone age. :nana:



That is genius! Do you use Eneloops? What is the optimal voltage for a P30 (voltage under load)?


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## Kestrel (Apr 22, 2014)

cland72 said:


> That is genius! Do you use Eneloops? What is the optimal voltage for a P30 (voltage under load)?


That's a good question - I haven't tried them with Eneloops, as they were designed for 1xCR123, so ~2.5 volts under load or so.

Being able to use single (partially used) CR123's by themselves is something I've always valued as that avoids the matching sets concern with 2xCR123 configurations.

There aren't many good incan lights out there that can run 2xAA and 1xCR123 - partially because they are much less efficient in terms of lumens/watt at those lower voltages.


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## mcnair55 (Apr 22, 2014)

RepProdigious said:


> Im pretty sure there's plenty more modern cars (especially diesels) that will still run fine, especially if they were running at the time of the EMP and have not been turned off yet (just keep em topped up and dont turn em off :twothumbs )



Not a chance there are far more electronics in cars today than people can even start to dream about.I recently had to stop the AA man taking a simple 10 amp mini fuse out of my fuse box(radio would not switch off) as the dealer told me it will cause no end of problems and take the cat to them for a re mack which took just a few seconds and all was good again.


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## RetroTechie (Apr 22, 2014)

A microwave oven does not make good protection against an EMP, especially if the cord stays attacted. But it may be better than nothing. Likewise with a few layers of aluminium foil.

As for a 'need' to ground a Faraday cage: I wouldn't. a) it's more difficult than no ground, b) in the case of an EMP event, it _may_ actually make things worse, and c) a Faraday cage will do its EMP shielding work fine, grounded or not. More reading for example here: EMP Myths and Misconceptions

A metal bin with non-conductive lining should offer decent EMP protection I think. Problem I (personally) have with it, is that if whatever you put inside is also used, that means opening/closing that metal bin regularly to retrieve/store items from it. Ready-to-grab on top of my desk within an arms length, *is so much easier*.

At 43 years of age, I've never heard of an actual (large scale) EMP attack carried out over populated areas in my lifetime. Let alone with my country anywhere near the affected area. And several large CME events have come and gone. Not saying the threat isn't real, and I'm all for cheap fixes to potential issues. But I don't like inconveniencing myself because of threats that are quite low on the list of possible catastrophes. Also I'm not much of a "spare / unused backup sets for everything" kind of guy. Use it or lose it...


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## Kilroytheknifesnob (Apr 22, 2014)

LetThereBeLight! said:


> First problem: it's dated 2004.
> 
> Since 2004, EMP weaponry (yes, our own country and others have EMP weapons: those designed to knock out electronics) has considerably become more sophisticated and advanced.


 Where are your sources? You keep stating this stuff without listing a single source. Show me where the military has fielded an EMP weapon. What field strength are these weapons expected to produce?


LetThereBeLight! said:


> Third issue: your language: when you write "Metal enclosures KINDA do protect against EMP..." [emphasis mine]-- by using the word "kinda" you thereby contradict the very specificity with which you emphatically state most electronics (cars, etc.) Will survive an EMP (weapon-based or otherwise).


Yes, kinda. You're grasping at straws here. It depends on the orientation of the enclosure in relation to the source of energy, shape and type of metal, all kinds of things. In general though, metal shields from EMP effects. The real danger is going to come from long power lines and large industrial machinery that may act as antennas, receiving far more energy than a tiny microelectronics chip in your flashlight would.


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## subwoofer (Apr 23, 2014)

LetThereBeLight! said:


> I am simply encouraging readers of this fine forum to decide for themselves one thing and one thing only.
> 
> Namely, that since they protect themselves with LIFE insurance, HEALTH insurance, and CAR insurance, that it is perhaps JUST as wise to spend an additional ten to fifteen bucks (much less in most cases, and it's just a one-time purchase) to "insure" the integrity of their flashlights with the cheapest electronic insurance known based on Faraday's hard work, which, in my [researched] case, is a small galvanized steel trash can that measures about 18 inches high.



The thing is that one cannot protect ones self from every possible eventuality. This is why the best preparation you can make is to learn to be versatile, and make use of whatever you do have (McGyver style). Of course a few things collected together can be very useful and give you a head start, but unless you are a miner or live underground, then flashlights are only of limited use and are not essential.

Why buy a metal can, then buy flashlights just to store in it for the very unlikely event that is even more unlikely to kill all of your flashlights? For me it is certainly not worth bothering with.

It is also worth considering other EMP proof sources of light. For example, as well as candles, I have a few paraffin hurricane lamps that get used for garden parties etc. The added advantage here is no reliance on any electronics, a sources of flammable liquid for other uses, and no concerns about how it is stored (beyond the immediate safety considerations).

If your basic Faraday cage makes you feel better, then great, go for it, but I suspect the well educated and informed users of this forum are unlikely to follow in droves. You might be flogging a dead horse with this mission.


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## Fireclaw18 (Apr 23, 2014)

RepProdigious said:


> If all modern day electronics fail due to some catastrophic EMP event my flashlights not working will be the least of my problems....



This.

If I'm hit with a nuclear weapon's EMP pulse, I think I'll have other things on my mind than my flashlights.


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## mcnair55 (Apr 23, 2014)

Fireclaw18 said:


> This.
> 
> If I'm hit with a nuclear weapon's EMP pulse, I think I'll have other things on my mind than my flashlights.



+1 A man with common sense at last, fancy a pint? :thumbsup:


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## LightWalker (Apr 23, 2014)

In such an event the use of a flashlight at night at the wrong place at the wrong time could cause you to be the dinner of cannibals, so if your flashlight survives, use it wisely. A moonlight mode or a red emitter on low would be best for not giving away your location.


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## RedLED (Apr 24, 2014)

Would Halliburton cases work! I must have 30 of them, and my suitcase has seen millions and millions miles of use since 1986' and I still use it today, on every trip. 

Like a haliburton in a haliburton to shield this. You know, I could care less if this or any other kind of war happens...if it does it does, why worry?


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## Kitchen Panda (Apr 24, 2014)

LetThereBeLight! said:


> Hi Bill, with respect, I think you misunderstand me.
> ...
> 
> 3.) As for your sarcastic "how does a trashcan..." comment, if you research the various types of Faraday cages, you will see that one of the solutions I researched and described above will indeed protect any electronics. The cardboard lining all around and top to bottom is, if I recall correctly, to help said electronics withstand a vibration and protect it from something else I can't quite recall at the moment (let us know if you look it up!)
> ...



Getting far off the topic of flashlights, unfortunately - but my on-topic observation is that I would really like to see the science behind this - how may volts/meter gradient can a flashlight withstand (and at what wave shape) and how are we SURE that a common Home Depot galvanized trash can is providing *exactly* enough shielding to protect from an unspecified warhead at an unspecified altitude and distance. After all, you wouldn't want to be fighting off a horde of spiky-haired mutants only to discover your trash can full of flashlights has arced over and destroyed them all. 

Myself, I believe snapping my fingers keeps tigers away...must work, there are no tigers on my street. 

I suspect all those peace-sign-carrying protestors have done at least as much to protect your flashlights from the end of the world as any number of trash cans ever will. 


Bill


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## ampdude (Apr 24, 2014)

I try to keep a decent quantity of AA's and CR123A's around just like a keep a bit of drinking water around and canned food. And ammo. Just in case. Because there are situations you can't anticipate where you won't be able to charge cells or you may not have water coming out of the tap. Or you may need to defend your home and property or hunt to survive. It's good to be at least mildly prepared. I have a large stock in incan lights and bulbs, in addition to some LED lights.

The EMP blast can come from many things, not just a nuclear blast or EMP bomb. There have been EMP blasts in the not so distant past that took out electronics all over the globe. I believe there was a supernova that took out primitive electronics worldwide back in 1859.

No, I just looked and it was believed to be solar flares. So solar storms are another thing that can ruin your day. Don't forget about quasars and gamma rays from deep space.

But then you can't beat the good old "common sense" that only a man made nuclear blast in your town can cause EMP radiation and that nothing bad like that will ever happen anyways.


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## Blueskies123 (Apr 24, 2014)

Why do you say using an old unplugged microwave oven or a refrigerator does not make a good Faraday cage?

The walls of the microwave are made of conductive metal, with the viewing hole similar to a mesh wall in a Faraday cage, making a microwave a hybrid Faraday cage. I measured the holes on my microwave and they come out to 1 milimeter; small enough to theoretically block a pulse with a frequency of up to 300 GHz. An electromagnetic pulse would give off energy with a variety of frequencies, but your microwave should block the bulk of them.
You can test your microwave by placing a radio or cell phone inside of a microwave (don't turn it on!) and checking for signal. Can you call the phone in the microwave? How is your radio reception once inside? You are more than likely unable to make a call or get a signal. The type of electromagnetic energy used in a cell tower or radio transmission will be stronger, but your microwave might make for a good barrier against it. If you want to go even further, toss some electronic items you would need in a disaster in an old microwave and cover it in reflective metal tape to secure your microwave oven-turned-Faraday cage even more.
In the event of an EMP, the cord of your microwave (if plugged in) _could_ also act as a ground, further helping discharge any energy. I would probably clip the cord or leave it unplugged so I didn't actually microwave my cell phone in the middle of the night. You could also buy a broken microwave and seal it with additional metal tape on the edges to quickly make a Faraday cage for long-term use.


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## TEEJ (Apr 24, 2014)

You don't want a ground cord on a Faraday cage...the cage is to direct the field around the cage's contents...adding a cord would add a channel into your cage defeating the purpose.

This is why you cut the cord OFF when using an appliance as a cage.


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## vicv (Apr 26, 2014)

You guys realize an emp from a nuclear weapons will only happen if it's detonated in the upper atmosphere. From there it's too far away to damage led drivers  besides all my carry lights are incans....


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## Kilroytheknifesnob (Apr 26, 2014)

Vivc, all nuclear explosions produce an EMP.


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## Monocrom (May 3, 2014)

EMP?.... I've got my SureFire M6, SureFire custom Leef-bodied M4, SureFire C2, SureFire 9Z, SureFire 6P with wood sleeve body, Streamlight NightFighter, and Streamlight Scorpion. Along with a few other incandescent lights.


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## TEEJ (May 3, 2014)

Kilroytheknifesnob said:


> Vivc, all nuclear explosions produce an EMP.



Its HEMP that you worry about as far as electronics...as the high altitude version is more powerful and wide reaching in effect.



EMP is just a localized effect, HEMP is the system killer, and, WORSE for electronic than an EMP closer to your flashlight....albeit NEITHER is going to hurt your flashlight anyway.


By the way, there are species of crickets that eat the insulation from wires, and, squirrels are famous for that too.

These crickets can form large swarms, and blanket areas, eating up all the insulation they can find.

What are you doing to protect your electronics from swarms of insulation eating crickets? (I'd ask about squirrels, but, that's hopeless....)


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## braddy (May 3, 2014)

Here is some EMP testing on an old radio.

http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a266481.pdf

The military takes it seriously. https://www.fas.org/irp/doddir/army/fm24-18.pdf


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## StarHalo (May 3, 2014)

braddy said:


> Here is some EMP testing on an old radio.



Military radios are pretty hardcore robust, I'm not sure how relevant that is to consumer electronics. Good catch nonetheless..


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## braddy (May 3, 2014)

In the mid 1980s my unit carried the PRC-70, it was hardened against EMP and we envied (suspiciously) our foreign counterparts that carried much lighter radios, that weren't protected.

I have no idea the science, but I wasn't convinced that our military was wrong to force that extra weight on us.


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## electromage (May 3, 2014)

You should do a little bit of reading on the fundamentals of radio. EMP is essentially a very strong burst of incoherent radio frequency energy, which radiates in a semi-spherical pattern, and loses energy as it expands outward. FM and 2-way radios operate on the same principal but using comparitively low-power waves, which are amplified by a receiver. Low-frequency (long) electromagnetic waves propogate better than high-frequency over long distances, this is why AM radio stations can run lower power and be heard farther away than FM radio stations, and CB has the same benefit over UHF. As the distance from the source increases, the strength of the wave decreases exponentially (inverse-square law), just like two magnets. When these high-power magnetic waves hit a current in a conductor they create electricity, much like the moving magnets inside coils of wire inside a generator. If the waves are too strong, they will overload the wire and burn it out (this will probably happen in a transformer).

As you get far enough away from the blast to be safe from the immense heat and air pressure, the waves that are left will be so low-frequency that they will only affect things like power lines, and very large antennas. This will disrupt transmission, and may damage generators and substation equipment as well as destroy un-protected appliances (good surge protectors should help). I don't think that flashlights, and small electronic devices will be affected at all unless they're close enough to a nuclear blast that they'd probably be destroyed by the blast itself.

Also, a lot of you seem to think that incandescent lights will fare better, why is that? The filament will act as an antenna, and easily cook itself with a little current. A switched-off LED and driver is more susceptible to ESD than EMP.


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## braddy (May 3, 2014)

So who had the right radios for European missions, my unit with the EMP protections, or a foreign unit that didn't?

These were for 4 to 6 man teams, so weight was a big issue.


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## LetThereBeLight! (May 9, 2014)

braddy said:


> So who had the right radios for European missions, my unit with the EMP protections, or a foreign unit that didn't?
> 
> These were for 4 to 6 man teams, so weight was a big issue.





Kilroytheknifesnob said:


> 1. I'm sorry, you must have missed the part where I referenced a scientific research study stating that almost all modern cars are quite EMP resistant. If you could please cite your source of information, we could have an informed discussion here. Just for extra proof that you're completely wrong: http://www.empcommission.org/ start at page 112.
> 
> 2. I'm not sure you understand how an EMP actually damages electronics.
> 3. Yes, Metal enclosures kinda do protect against EMP. It's basic radio wave propagation theory, not voodoo. Again, cite your sources if you believe otherwise.




Here are two current sources of information for you:

1.) www.thecommonsenseshow.com: look at Mr. Hodges' series on the Chinese, part 4;

2.) www.shtfplan.com: look at today's EMP weapons article.

To repeat, I pray and hope we do not suffer an EMP weapon's burst/pulse. But if we do, I trust in what I have researched to protect at least the one thing everybody here is SO crazy about: high-end flashlights.


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## braddy (May 9, 2014)

Just a couple of links to nothing particular?

At least one of them looks like goofy conspiracy land. Those links seem off topic.


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## LetThereBeLight! (May 9, 2014)

braddy said:


> So who had the right radios for European missions, my unit with the EMP protections, or a foreign unit that didn't?
> 
> These were for 4 to 6 man teams, so weight was a big issue.





braddy said:


> Just a couple of links to nothing particular?
> 
> At least one of them looks like goofy conspiracy land. Those links seem off topic.



My oh my how dismissive we are tonight!

I guess you can't handle the truth. Or choose not to.

Those links actually refute the naysayers who choose not to read up on the latest EMP weapons. My ORIGINAL post was about protection for our high-end flashlights. Subsequent posts sadly became filled with disputatious hot air. Yet no one has ever answered why it is so horribly wrong to protect our Light investments, strange indeed.


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## idleprocess (May 9, 2014)

LetThereBeLight! said:


> My oh my how dismissive we are tonight!
> 
> I guess you can't handle the truth. Or choose not to.
> 
> Those links actually refute the naysayers who choose not to read up on the latest EMP weapons. My ORIGINAL post was about protection for our high-end flashlights. Subsequent posts sadly became filled with disputatious hot air. Yet no one has ever answered why it is so horribly wrong to protect our Light investments, strange indeed.


Some of us post materials from verifiable sources that have conducted experiments and/or collected hard data, which you dismiss with various hand-waves - too old, can't trust the government, or part of some cover-up. You post from sketchy sources with _messianic conviction_.

Specifically, your links talk about EMP weapons, but don't go into their actual effects other than the usual alarmist predictions about everything that uses electricity being rendered useless and we'll almost all promptly die. Problem is that actual research conducted on this issue contradicts many of the claims being made.

If you can come up with some reputable sources, perhaps we'll take you seriously; otherwise you're just trolling us.

If you want to keep your lights in a faraday cage, feel free - doesn't affect me. But please stop claiming that protects them from a grid-destroying EMP that they'll scarely notice outside of the cage.


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## DoubleA (May 9, 2014)

LetThereBeLight! said:


> My oh my how dismissive we are tonight!
> 
> I guess you can't handle the truth. Or choose not to.
> 
> Those links actually refute the naysayers who choose not to read up on the latest EMP weapons. My ORIGINAL post was about protection for our high-end flashlights. Subsequent posts sadly became filled with disputatious hot air. Yet no one has ever answered why it is so horribly wrong to protect our Light investments, strange indeed.



To the OP:
I only have read through the first page of this thread and it seems no one is taking your views very seriously. Rest assured, I do. You're referring to an EMP threat mainly as one that would come from a nuke being set off high up above the atmosphere, which is something that has been researched and considered by countries around the world to knock out electricity and electronics of an enemy country. Since we have electricity and things that run on it as the life-blood of the nation, we wouldn't live long without it. So of course, it makes sense to protect what we can, especially if it's easy and cheap enough to do.

Of course, people will say that your flashlights being fried would be the least of your problems. First of all, I doubt that. When all electricity and lights are knocked out, it will be dark indeed when night comes! A working flashlight at that time will be GOLD! If a steel trashcan or any other metal enclosure is what it takes to protect some of your backup lights and put you way ahead of the game in such a scenario, then it is a very good idea.

As for what good are lights when they depend on batteries....all you need is to store up some extra batteries. They wouldn't be affected by an EMP. Only LED lights would be. A good idea would be to have lights with long runtimes. Right now, there are lights that can run for 40 hours on low with a single AA battery. If you used it at that level for an hour per night, you could get by for a year on just 10 batteries. Sounds worthwhile to me!

Yes, I do protect many of my lights from EMP as well. I think mostly AA lights should be saved, since AAA batteries can be used in them in a pinch, but it's nice to actually have a few AAA lights too. My EMP setup doesn't involve much. It's a 42oz. oatmeal cannister wrapped in aluminum foil, placed in a coffee can (the metal kind), with another coffee can upside down on top of that. The cannister and coffee cans are separated by cardboard. The cardboard's purpose is to separate the containers so the EMP doesn't jump from one container to the other. Having the lights in contact with the metal container would defeat the purpose since the EMP would hit the metal container and then your lights which would be in contact with it. Keep them apart. I also have a container inside of an office safe, which is made of steel. I have a few lights in that.

If you want an idea of how EMP affects things (if it were to happen), read the book titled, "One Second After". It's an eye-opener. Granted, it's fictional, but still gives the reader an idea of how serious of a threat something like this is. I've heard China is actually trying to modify nukes in a way that would enhance their EMP effect. If they are taking it seriously, then maybe we should be as well.


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## braddy (May 10, 2014)

LetThereBeLight! said:


> My oh my how dismissive we are tonight!
> 
> I guess you can't handle the truth. Or choose not to.
> 
> Those links actually refute the naysayers who choose not to read up on the latest EMP weapons. My ORIGINAL post was about protection for our high-end flashlights. Subsequent posts sadly became filled with disputatious hot air. Yet no one has ever answered why it is so horribly wrong to protect our Light investments, strange indeed.



Can't handle the truth? What kind of remark is that, I just can't handle that nutty conspiracy site you linked to.

I know the military takes EMPs seriously, and has for many decades, and spends a lot of money to create EMP weapons, and to harden equipment against EMPs, you even quoted me pointing out the EMP protected radio I used to use.

EMPs are real, but that nutty site isn't.


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## electromage (May 10, 2014)

So your other thread is about wireless powered flashlights, you realize that would make them _more_ susceptible to EMPs right?


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## LanthanumK (May 10, 2014)

Stores flashlights in grounded foil covered cans; still plugs computer directly into mains electricity. If anything, its the electrical grid that will fry your electronics. Flashlight electronics are far more resilient than a CPU or RAM due to their simplicity.

Static electricity can simulate an induced voltage in a device. Shock your computer's RAM, then shock your flashlight's driver with a Van de Graaff generator. See which one survives longer. I used to shock one of those electronic pushbutton red LED safety flashers with a spark igniter found on grills, stoves, etc. It simply turned on from the spark and began flashing, as if one pressed the on button. Sometimes even a close spark on the outside of the plastic casing would turn it on, apparently from induced voltage. It was not damaged at all.


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## StarHalo (May 10, 2014)

LanthanumK said:


> shock your flashlight's driver with a Van de Graaff generator.



Well we know our flashlights can survive a Tesla coil..


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## DoubleA (May 10, 2014)

StarHalo said:


> Well we know our flashlights can survive a Tesla coil..



Interesting. It give me new hope! Although 1 person on that thread did mention that the light was grounded when hit by the Tesla coil. It may have fried otherwise.


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## Kilroytheknifesnob (May 10, 2014)

I swear, critical thinking is dead. I posted a study where scientists ACTUALLY hit electronics with an EMP, with little result. So, get out of here with made up fictional speculation. I prefer to base my disaster preparations on things that might actually happen. But hey, if it helps you sleep at night, go ahead and store your light in a metal can.


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## braddy (May 10, 2014)

Can you excerpt the portion related to led lights, that answers the OP?


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## mattheww50 (May 10, 2014)

There seems to be a basic lack of understanding about what EMP is and is not. EMP produces a very large Electro-magnetic Field. That large field will induce voltages in all conductors exposed to it. The longer the conductor, the more energy will be captured and conducted. Consequenly equipment connected to long lengths of wire is the most likely to be damaged, so power lines, telephone lines, and antennae will be the conduit for the energy. If you device has very little in the way of wiring, it is impossible to induce signficant voltages in it. Almost by definition flashlights tend to be immune. They are not attached to long sections of wire, and the amount of voltage that can be induced in an object the size of a flashlight is quite small. The same is true for an automobile. Most of the electronics sit in places where they are effectively shielded from fields above the vehcile.

The military, especially the Navy has condierable experience in living in a high field environment. The deck of an aircraft carrier presents fields only hardened equipment can survive operating in. US Military aircraft are now generally 'hardened'. There is equipemet at Sandia Labs in New Mexico for testing EMP sensitivity. It is the largest all wooden structure in the world (a 747 can be parked on it). The Army didn't realize there was a problem until they lost several helicoopts that got too close to a search radar and effectively jammed the avionics.

We actually do have some eperience with substantial EMP effects. One of the nuclear tests in the early 1960's (Starfish Prime) set off a 1.4MT hydrogen bomb in space over the Pacific. It did considerable damage in Hawaii, but almost exclusively to communications and powerline connected devices.


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## electromage (May 10, 2014)

Also, most flashlights are a big chunk of metal. If there's a current induced, it will travel along the outside of the case. You'd have to hit the business end with short enough waves to fit through the aperture, which would be 10-20mm. Those wavelengths are easily absorbed by air and water.


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## TEEJ (May 11, 2014)

Yeah.....very true here.

For example, the tesla coil test alone illustrated that the problem, even when magnified with a strong local field that a weaker atmospheric field will be ok, and that there was a misconception that the light was grounded....even though the "ground" was found to be a plastic stand not a ground, and yet, no recognition that if it had been a ground, it would not have done what the misperceptions assumed it would have, etc.

Hemp and emp are hazards to long conductive systems such as antennae and power or copper phone lines, etc....because the potental differences between the farther ends is enough to induce significant flow.

An example in common use is when an operator must leap from accidentally energized equipment, say due to hitting an overhead power line, etc.

If the operator jumps so his two feet land at different distances from the source of the field, and further from each other....it maximizes the likelihood of electrocution.

If he lands with his feet together and the same distance from the source, the electrocution risks are minimized.

And so forth.

~ 100 mA can kill a guy, and even that can be avoided with a decent landing.

Compare the distances between the contact patches of a set of work boots jumping off a crane, etc...with the longest wire in a flaslight that runs in the "wrong" direction relative to the lines of force involved...and its apparent that the flashlight / EMP fright is akin to the zombie prep fright in relevency.

So, sure, the entire electrical grid might get damaged, etc....as its designed to take out these large infrastructure elements...but wee electronics, even cars, are mostly going to be fine.


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## LightWalker (May 11, 2014)

" WASHINGTON – China, Russia and North Korea have electromagnetic-pulse, or EMP, weapons with the ability to cause mass casualties and catastrophic damage to the U.S. power grid, but defending against such an attack is not a defense priority, warned an expert who testified to Congress Thursday."

http://mobile.wnd.com/2014/05/expert-to-congress-emp-clear-and-present-danger/


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## DoubleA (May 11, 2014)

mattheww50 said:


> There seems to be a basic lack of understanding about what EMP is and is not. EMP produces a very large Electro-magnetic Field. That large field will induce voltages in all conductors exposed to it. The longer the conductor, the more energy will be captured and conducted. Consequenly equipment connected to long lengths of wire is the most likely to be damaged, so power lines, telephone lines, and antennae will be the conduit for the energy. If you device has very little in the way of wiring, it is impossible to induce signficant voltages in it. Almost by definition flashlights tend to be immune....
> 
> We actually do have some eperience with substantial EMP effects. One of the nuclear tests in the early 1960's (Starfish Prime) set off a 1.4MT hydrogen bomb in space over the Pacific. It did considerable damage in Hawaii, but almost exclusively to communications and powerline connected devices.



Ah, but there's something different here today. In the early 1960s, electronics were relatively "hardy" compared to what we have now. Today, electronics are more delicate in nature. Something like a household radio or TV of the 60s used vacuum tubes and other electronics that weren't like the Ipads, computers, and yes--high end flashlights with LED diodes. Electronics now are just more delicate. Even static electricity can bring down a modern computer. Analog TVs used to last 30 years or more. How long do flat screens last? Not as long. The more delicate electronics become, the shorter the lifespan. If someone took a stun gun or tesla coil to your ipad, do you think it would last long? I certainly would question their ability to withstand an EMP from a nuke without shielding.


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## inetdog (May 11, 2014)

At one time the military was researching Thermally Integrated Micro Modules (TIMMs) for radiation resistance.
They were to tubes what integrated circuits are to transistors.
The cathodes, grids and plates of many tiny tubes were built on an insulating substrate inside a common vacuum envelope to get high density and relatively low power consumption.
Techniques for radiation hardening semiconductors developed fast enough that TIMMs were never needed.
They probably would have been fairly resistant to EMP though. Short distances and "punch through" from high voltage might not damage them.


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## Kaboby (May 15, 2014)

also keep a solar panel or many with chargers for your rechargeable batteries : )


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## H.J.M. (Jan 31, 2015)

mcnair55 said:


> http://thecommonsenseshow.com/
> 
> All we need now is Alex Jones to post on here.


I BET HE TYPES WITH ALL CAPS!!!


if an event happened where most, if not all electronic devices suddenly stopped working. I would not be flashing around any working lights. Not when anyone could see them. Stupid people will think you are special and will be attracted to the lights like flies to poop.

Geography is very important during the events beginning. I have a hard time fathoming the actual reactions of something on this level. Different for locations. 

Likely hood of actually happening? I am not qualified to answer this question. Do your own research.


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## more_vampires (Feb 1, 2015)

Uhhh... don't you have to ground a faraday cage? A simple trash can wouldn't cut it unless you hooked it to an earth ground.

Or am I missing something again? I do that a lot... The cages I've seen are all grounded.

Someone earlier said NOT to ground it?


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## broadgage (Feb 1, 2015)

I suspect that a modern flashlight containing electronics would PROBABLY survive an EMP event, especially if metal bodied as many are.
However just in case they don't I do have a "plan B" consisting of spare flashlights stored in Faraday cage.
I also have incandescents, spare bulbs and loads of alkaline cells. It would be prudent to store low power incandescent flashlight bulbs in order to extend battery life.

"Plan C" consists of candles and kerosene lamps.


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## Norm (Feb 1, 2015)

More threads on EMP. - Norm


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## TKC (Feb 1, 2015)

RepProdigious said:


> If all modern day electronics fail due to some catastrophic EMP event my flashlights not working will be the least of my problems....



*+1. Yeah, what he said.*


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## lunas (Feb 1, 2015)

Ammo can replace the rubber seal with aluminum foil to make a electrical connection between the top and bottom. A few light engines maybe some batteries i don't know if i would have whole lights in there rather than spare parts to bring the lights that don't just survive up. a spare charger too.

you can also do your steel can with a plastic can inside it.


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## Vanishing (Feb 1, 2015)

LetThereBeLight! said:


> Those that THINK they know it all upset those of us who DO!
> "Truth needs to be repeated as long as there are men who disbelieve it."



lols....hmmm..
I think I will take my chances with my flashlights in my wooden desk drawer...


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## LetThereBeLight! (Feb 1, 2015)

more_vampires said:


> Uhhh... don't you have to ground a faraday cage? A simple trash can wouldn't cut it unless you hooked it to an earth ground.
> 
> Or am I missing something again? I do that a lot... The cages I've seen are all grounded.
> 
> Someone earlier said NOT to ground it?




I believe the galvanized steel most likely provides the grounding. Moreover, you will need to cushion it top to bottom and all around with cardboard

If that is not correct, in all the research I have done written by Ph.d.s none calls for grounding. 

Additionally, two people learned in science confirmed what my research showed.

LetThereBeLight!


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## braddy (Feb 2, 2015)

RepProdigious said:


> If all modern day electronics fail due to some catastrophic EMP event my flashlights not working will be the least of my problems....



It would be the situation when I would be most desperate to have my flashlights, the night would be full of things to do. and those of us who own little solar chargers can keep our batteries charged.

From doing chores and repairs and food preparations at night, to security, flashlights would be more important then, than now. For our pioneering families there was much to do after the sun went down, and did I mention security, like being able to see and identify people in the night?


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## IMSabbel (Feb 2, 2015)

Most modern flashlight are damn good against EMP:

Small form factor means they will not couple very much with typical electromagnetic wavelengths, and full aluminium body (including aluminium reflector) means very good further protection.

You old plastic incan light is more likely to blow up.

Also, EMP is very overrated in general - most of the expected damage is coupling into power lines, large antenna, etc. Unless you are pretty close to a nuclear bomb EMP, and then you have other problems.


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## xzel87 (Feb 2, 2015)

Thanks to this thread, I am much more educated on the subject of EMP by reading through this site. Ignore the ads about dvds and stuff,it's still a very informative read.

Seriously guys, read up. It doesn't even take a nuclear holocaust to knock out an entire country's electrical grid. In fact, I'm very surprised at how easy it is and how vulnerable we are to its (after)effects.


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## cland72 (Feb 4, 2015)

I'm pretty sure all LED flashlights will remain operational after an EMP (based on research I've seen that indicates even modern vehicles won't be affected).

That being said, I have a few P60 incan drop ins laying around that should run just fine in my 6P should LEDs fail.


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## ForrestChump (Feb 4, 2015)

YES. 325 HDS. 

SERIOUS QUESTION: Are there any other light manufactures that have even attempted this in their design criteria or claim that their lights are EMP resistant?


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## more_vampires (Feb 4, 2015)

ForrestChump said:


> YES. 325 HDS.
> SERIOUS QUESTION: Are there any other light manufactures that have even attempted this in their design criteria or claim that their lights are EMP resistant?



I had no idea that HDS claims EMP rating. Wow. Nasa and Raytheon probably aren't going to do us a flashlight. 

I wonder what Elon Musk (Space X, Tesla Motors, PayPal) thinks of this topic?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elon_Musk

BRB, shopping HDS... Gotta be prepared!


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## WalkIntoTheLight (Feb 4, 2015)

I wouldn't take any claims of EMP protection seriously. If an EMP doesn't affect small electronics, then the EMP claim is nothing special.

If an EMP does affect small electronics, and a nuclear burst happens to fry a light that claims it's protected, then just how do you plan to make a warranty claim? It's a meaningless claim that a company knows it will never have to make good on.


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## more_vampires (Feb 4, 2015)

Don't forget there are EMP only devices. One was demonstrated killing a car on the Discovery series "Futureweapons."

Interesting to note that the BATTERY and INCAN BULBS survived, the power windows still worked, and the ignition electronics and radio were toast.

The show host sat in the car while it fried. Not all EMP is nuke.


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## WalkIntoTheLight (Feb 4, 2015)

more_vampires said:


> Don't forget there are EMP only devices. One was demonstrated killing a car on the Discovery series "Futureweapons."
> 
> Interesting to note that the BATTERY and INCAN BULBS survived, the power windows still worked, and the ignition electronics and radio were toast.
> 
> The show host sat in the car while it fried. Not all EMP is nuke.



Nuke or not, if someone is using a "future weapon" against you, having a working flashlight is probably the least of your concerns. And again, a company probably isn't concerned about having to make good on warranty claims from an EMP blast.

(Military excepted, since they probably do want working devices when fighting on the battlefield, against whatever weapons.)


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## braddy (Feb 4, 2015)

In the Army I always insisted on only using parachutes that were guaranteed.

The same applies to my nuclear war flashlights, if it doesn't have a return policy, then no sale.


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## more_vampires (Feb 4, 2015)

Braddy, I am interested in your "Nuclear War Flashlights" brand and would like to subscribe to your newsletter.


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## idleprocess (Feb 4, 2015)

more_vampires said:


> Don't forget there are EMP only devices. One was demonstrated killing a car on the Discovery series "Futureweapons."
> 
> Interesting to note that the BATTERY and INCAN BULBS survived, the power windows still worked, and the ignition electronics and radio were toast.
> 
> The show host sat in the car while it fried. Not all EMP is nuke.


If someone is pointing a *directed* electronics-destroying weapon of some sort at you, then you have considerably greater problems to solve, _quickly_. Sure, your 1960s era trail bike might turn over like nothing happened, your vintage ray-o-vac flashlight might work, and your white gas coleman lantern will work ... but odds are whoever used said device is soon to be after you for a more up-close-and-personal visit.


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## WalkIntoTheLight (Feb 4, 2015)

braddy said:


> In the Army I always insisted on only using parachutes that were guaranteed.
> 
> The same applies to my nuclear war flashlights, if it doesn't have a return policy, then no sale.


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## tandem (Feb 4, 2015)

Honestly, I don't care about EMP as a threat. I'm more concerned about earthquakes. Stocking up with portable power and lights is easy. What's tricky is water and sanitation if the big one mangles our water and sewage network here. Then again it rains like crazy here, and we live high on a hill, so all is well. 

Transport will be easy enough in a post-EMP world: Bicycles.

Improve your Trash-Can Faraday cage with conductive duct tape:


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## ForrestChump (Feb 4, 2015)

First and hopefully last comment on HDS / EMP in this context. As I got to the first line of a comment made umteen times, "EMP and HDS are just XXXXXX."................

HDS IS THE ONLY COMPANY I KNOW OF THAT HAVE *TESTED* THEIR LIGHTS FOR EMP. TO THE BEST OF MY KNOWLEDGE THIS IS MENTIONED AND ADVERTISED NOWHERE. HENRY ONLY DISCUSSES THE TOPIC WHEN DIRECTLY ADDRESSED ABOUT IT. By the very definition this makes it everything BUT a GIMMICK. It is not to raise sales, his lights sell like iPhones and I would be willing to bet my left butt cheek in the 30 years he has been pioneering flashlight technology he has ever made a dubious claim to sell a light. How many manufactures can say that? His brand is built on Reliability and Reputation, and IMO CPF has experienced nothing short of excellence from HDS.


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## WalkIntoTheLight (Feb 5, 2015)

ForrestChump said:


> HDS IS THE ONLY COMPANY I KNOW OF THAT HAVE *TESTED* THEIR LIGHTS FOR EMP.



Maybe he has, maybe he hasn't. I wouldn't trust a company's test or word on that; I'd want to see 3rd party testing. And, as has been mentioned, small lights aren't going to be fried by a EMP anyway.

It's all interesting, but for practical reasons, anyone except military isn't going to need an EMP-resistant flashlight. In fact, you won't need an EMP-resistant _anything_. You'll be dead.


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## more_vampires (Feb 5, 2015)

WalkIntoTheLight said:


> It's all interesting, but for practical reasons, anyone except military isn't going to need an EMP-resistant flashlight. In fact, you won't need an EMP-resistant _anything_. You'll be dead.



What about solar events and extraplanetary radiation events? Again, doesn't have to be a nuke you know.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_storm_of_1859


> Telegraph systems all over Europe and North America failed, in some cases giving telegraph operators electric shocks.[7]​ Telegraph pylons threw sparks.[8]​ Some telegraph operators could continue to send and receive messages despite having disconnected their power supplies.[9]​





WalkIntoTheLight said:


> In fact, you won't need an EMP-resistant _anything_. You'll be dead.



You mean... one hit from this and it's all over?


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## WalkIntoTheLight (Feb 5, 2015)

more_vampires said:


> What about solar events and extraplanetary radiation events? Again, doesn't have to be a nuke you know.
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_storm_of_1859
> [/SUP]



Those kinds of events affect conductors that are miles long, not inches like in a flashlight. Your flashlight has nothing to worry about from solar storms.


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## Hogokansatsukan (Feb 5, 2015)

WalkIntoTheLight said:


> Maybe he has, maybe he hasn't. I wouldn't trust a company's test or word on that; I'd want to see 3rd party testing. And, as has been mentioned, small lights aren't going to be fried by a EMP anyway.
> 
> It's all interesting, but for practical reasons, anyone except military isn't going to need an EMP-resistant flashlight. In fact, you won't need an EMP-resistant _anything_. You'll be dead.



A good deal of sales of HDS lights were sold to the military. Generally to individual units.
For most, you have more to worry about than your light if an EMP happens, or a solar X flare for that matter.
Henry did have a 3rd party test them. He doesn't advertise it as... well.... REALLY? It's not a selling point for the general public, and sees the topic as a bit silly, which is another reason it's not on the advertising or the web site.


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## ForrestChump (Feb 5, 2015)

Hogokansatsukan said:


> A good deal of sales of HDS lights were sold to the military. Generally to individual units.
> For most, you have more to worry about than your light if an EMP happens, or a solar X flare for that matter.
> Henry did have a 3rd party test them. He doesn't advertise it as... well.... REALLY? It's not a selling point for the general public, and sees the topic as a bit silly, which is another reason it's not on the advertising or the web site.



I've commented on this topic / HDS twice now in this thread and another. After reading your comment it finally clicked on how short sighted participating in this kind of discussion is. Thanks for that, saved me some aggravation trying to explain and re-explain.

Forrest out.


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## LetThereBeLight! (Feb 5, 2015)

ForrestChump said:


> I've commented on this topic / HDS twice now in this thread and another. After reading your comment it finally clicked on how short sighted participating in this kind of discussion is. Thanks for that, saved me some aggravation trying to explain and re-explain.
> 
> Forrest out.



Forrest, this whole thread originally was not if your 'HDS' lights are EMP-protected but if your flashlights in general are, given the enormous sums some to most CPF members spend on them, and given the likelihoods of solar flares, EMP weapons, etc.


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## tandem (Feb 5, 2015)

LetThereBeLight! said:


> given the likelihoods of solar flares, EMP weapons, etc.



What, you mean a likelihood of such a thing ever happening -- or in the case of solar flares, such a thing happening and having an impact on a flash light -- being _practically zero_?

We should be more concerned with how to stuff our auto-mobiles and pick up trucks and espresso machines into trash-can Faraday cages. Triple ristretto will be very important in anyone's arsenal after the Zombie Apocalypse gets going. 

Lately I'm more concerned about whether the folks down the valley from us are inoculating their children against measles. I'm a little worried about a house value bubble popping here. The other day I worried about the person who almost T-boned me while I drove 1/4 of the team to their soccer game. But I'm not at all worried, not even the most microscopically small bead of worry-sweat present on my brow, about my flashlights being knocked out of commission by man-made or nature-produced "EMP".

We've seen solar flares disrupt power grids... those darn electrical cables spanning tens of thousands of kilometers are large inductors just waiting for magnetic flux to mess with them. A tiny flashlight is not going to be bothered by such events. If it is... I agree with the others who've posted, our espresso machines and skulls are probably done for too so why worry?


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## braddy (Feb 6, 2015)

I've been paying attention to the EMP arguments for many years, while it is frustrating enough not to have definitive answers about the big things like regional grids and vehicles, there doesn't even seem to be agreement about flashlights.

Just as it seems like they will be fine, and it is obvious that they will be, then some authoritative sounding guy comes along and explains why led lights won't be fine, and can't be.

Personally I would like to know for sure about all my lights, batteries, chargers, small solar chargers such as for for back packing, laptops, transistor radios, Walkmans, etc.


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## idleprocess (Feb 6, 2015)

tandem said:


> What, you mean a likelihood of such a thing ever happening -- or in the case of solar flares, such a thing happening and having an impact on a flash light -- being _practically zero_?
> 
> We should be more concerned with how to stuff our auto-mobiles and pick up trucks and espresso machines into trash-can Faraday cages. Triple ristretto will be very important in anyone's arsenal after the Zombie Apocalypse gets going.
> 
> ...



If the national electrical grid goes down and irreparably takes a large percentage of the equipment connected to it with it, then society is *In A Bad Place™*. Unless you already live off the grid on a self-sustaining compound not at all dependent on anything with wires of sufficient length to channel that EMP into their sensitive bits nor dependent on any significant material support from the outside world, the functioning of your flashlights and other gizmos safe inside their faraday cages or certified EMP resistant might buy you a few more hours or days of some 21st-century conveniences until you too are rudely introduced to the brave new world of early 19th century life with no helpful experience living under such primitive conditions. Indeed, in the case of some disaster spanning longer than a few days, using such magical attention-drawing doo-dads might result in ... problems ... for you from all possible quarters. Does the average self-described "flashaholic" have the self-restraint to not trash their night vision blasting away in the night at the slightest provocation, the wisdom to know when night vision is preferable vs broadcasting their existence to everyone for thousands of yards around, or the discipline about battery life not to exhaust their stockpile of cells in a blink running lights excessively?

Logistically, first world societies run on the principle of JIT (Just In Time), meaning that there aren't massive warehouses in every major population center stocked, on average, with _months'_ worth of goods. From a business-operations-during-normal-times perspective this leans out the operation since inventory is money and the more of it you have the more money you have just sitting around, cutting many costs of doing business. However, it does make your business much more sensitive to disruptions in the supply chain, meaning that a missed shipment or several can promptly halt operations. In my region, the mere _threat_ of an ice storm can empty grocery store shelves of many things - bottled water, dairy products, bread, cold cereal - because Texans dread all forms of frozen precipitation. Some businesses have contingency plans - such as safety stocks of key goods, backup generators, disaster recovery facilities - but the typical planning window for these are limited-scope and -duration disasters, thus a prolonged large-scale disaster in a society with widespread JIT will put a big hurt within its footprint. So what if your flashlights, radios, and GPS receivers work when there's nothing to eat in the city, water is scarce, sanitation is becoming a health concern, and your fellow citizens are sizing each other up in sudden worry about their own immediate safety?

So perhaps you realize some of this and have undertaken some preparations well beyond a few mini-maglites, G2's, stacks of cells, and spare bulbs all wrapped multiple paper/foil layers in an ammo can inside a steel trash can with the lid aluminum-taped on. What do you have? How many weeks worth of food and water? Do you have sanitation plans? What measures have you taken for security (rather important when order breaks down)? Have you tested any of these? Do you have a reliable - and quiet - means of bugging out of the population center you no doubt inhabit when things get really bad as it becomes apparent that it's going to take a while for 21st-century normalcy to return? This last bit will likely become important as the reality of that saying _society is three meals away from disorder_ gets tested ... oh by the way this place you're GTFO'ing to will have all the materials you need to survive indefinitely and be populated by trustworthy people, no?



*tl;dr*: Flashlights specifically designed to be EMP-resistant or stored in heavily-shielded containers will amount to almost nothing if _The Big One_ hits without *extensive* additional planning and preparation that go orders of magnitude beyond simply covering one's personal illumination needs. Perhaps some here have undertaken these preparations, but I'm just not getting that vibe, thus I am rather dismissive of the entire concept.


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## braddy (Feb 6, 2015)

I don't know why you guys keep saying that light after dark is the last thing to worry about, it is actually extremely high on the list.

I live in the city, in 660 square feet and one of my primary interests in a situation is good light to do my repairs and chores and reading at night, pioneer style, and to be able to lend lighting to others, and to be able to light up people in the dark once they start thinking that the lack of electricity has made everyone invisible at night.

When someone starts looking around your place and finds you sitting in the dark with a TK75, that instantly tells you which neighbor's kid they are and what he is wearing, they will avoid your place.

My food and water, and temperature, and gun needs are fine, but I want those night time hours, because just like in the old days, the night time is time to get plenty of constructive things done indoors.


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## tandem (Feb 6, 2015)

idleprocess ^^ agree.

In other posts I've noted water and sanitation (waste also implies a source of food) as much more important things to plan for than electro-magnetic disruption of my wee little flash lights. Solar-induced disruption of hand-portable lighting gear is not something I expect to ever suffer through nor expect anyone on the planet to face. 

I am _not_ trying to belittle the concerns of others. I just don't share those concerns. There's plenty of other things that need focussed attention on first.


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## braddy (Feb 6, 2015)

I've been into prepping for several decades, but this being a flashlight forum means flashlights are generally the focus of our discussions, whether talking about EMPs, jogging, prepping, caves, boating, camping, mountain climbing, or fishing. or soldiering, or whatever.


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## Grizzman (Feb 6, 2015)

Flashlights are not the only source of indoor light. Man has been using fire in the form of candles and oil lamps for a very long time. For outdoor area lighting, my Coleman lantern will do the job just fine.

When my power goes out, the juice in my solar setup's AGM battery goes to phone, GPS, GMRS/FRS radios, portable audio equipment, etc before it goes towards a flashlight battery.


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## braddy (Feb 6, 2015)

Don't almost all of those use the same batteries as your flashlights (or some of them)?


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## ForrestChump (Feb 6, 2015)

braddy said:


> I've been into prepping for several decades, but this being a flashlight forum means flashlights are generally the focus of our discussions, whether talking about EMPs, jogging, prepping, caves, boating, camping, mountain climbing, or fishing. or soldiering, or whatever.


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## Grizzman (Feb 6, 2015)

phone - integrated battery
GPS - integrated battery
FRS radios - AA
portable audio - integrated and 9 volt batteries
primary lights - 18650, 18500s, and 16650s

I've got a headlamp, a small ZebraLight, and a Malkoff drop-in that use AAs. Others can use AAs, with significantly reduced output. The reduced capacity of AAs makes them a far from ideal choice.

The camp stove, lantern, and portable heater use propane cylinders. Water filtration is hand operated.


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## braddy (Feb 6, 2015)

As a prepper I like to have a version of things that use batteries that I can charge with my little solar chargers or car charger, AA, AAA, mostly.

I like having an old electric test meter that uses AA, I look for that in some products such as transistor radios, CD player, and little gadgets, a cell phone is something that I am close to getting away from period, I have never used GPS , I like my 18650 lights but still think of AA and AA as important to preppers. I have D batteries but it would take a week to charge them with my tiny solar chargers.

One thing about prepping is that we are all at different levels of income and in different situations, I do mine on next to nothing, while some have entire houses on solar, or sophisticated motor homes that could charge batteries for years, and then everyone in between, and of course those who live on a farm and have a lifestyle that is practically being survivalist without even thinking about it.

I would say that I am a long term prepper that is something of a minimalist, I learn things like how to can 5 quarts of dried beans at a time, it is labor intensive, but in two hours of fuel using and labor, you have five quarts of cooked and canned beans ready for the kitchen cabinet, that kind of thing enables me to stock up on cheap foods with a shelf life that will last my lifetime, wheat, beans, salt, sugar, rice, etc.


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## idleprocess (Feb 6, 2015)

braddy said:


> *I live in the city, in 660 square feet* and one of my primary interests in a situation is good light to do my repairs and chores and reading at night, pioneer style, and to be able to lend lighting to others, and to be able to light up people in the dark once they start thinking that the lack of electricity has made everyone invisible at night.


If you think you feel that EMP-resistant or shielded small electronics are important in what sounds like an apartment unit, cool. For the reasons I have outlined previously, I think you'll have far larger problems if it comes to the point that small electronics may have been fried by an EMP or something similar.


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## tandem (Feb 6, 2015)

OT: braddy instead of using two hours of fuel to can dried beans, why not use 10-12 minutes of fuel to pressure cook them? Ok, add another 5-7 to bring to boil first.

Serious question because I might be missing some thing...


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## braddy (Feb 6, 2015)

Different things for different times, if using one of my pressure cookers for making a meal makes sense, then fine, if making some canned meals is right, then fine.

For instance sometimes when you feel good, the weather is good, and perhaps summer time, canning some of your old, long stored beans makes sense for winter, and days that you might be too injured, or ill, for open fire cooking, or any cooking at all.

I will add that when I was camping in the mountains cutting firewood for a living, alone and for 2 weeks at a time between pickups, I lived on dried pinto beans, when I was already having to take the trouble to cook my beans for that day's meal, I would have liked at the same time to be canning some for the next week.

It is taking care of chores in batches and who likes waking morning to seeing uncooked 10 year old dried beans and unground wheat berries, and know that you have so much work to do just to get your first meal of the day?

By the way, thermos cooking is also useful.


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## braddy (Feb 6, 2015)

idleprocess said:


> If you think you feel that EMP-resistant or shielded small electronics are important in what sounds like an apartment unit, cool. For the reasons I have outlined previously, I think you'll have far larger problems if it comes to the point that small electronics may have been fried by an EMP or something similar.


Like I said before, I don't get why you keep dismissing lighting as unimportant and keep repeating that there will be "far larger problems".

What is your point? Especially on a flashlight forum? I don't live in an apartment, but what are the "far larger problems" that I am neglecting by trying to make sure that I have what humans have needed for centuries, light when the sun goes down?

There is no way that I want to lose the ability to see after dark.


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## Grizzman (Feb 6, 2015)

The building in which you live doesn't really matter, or whether you live in a building at all.

As has likely been stated several times, safe drinking water is priority number 1, while safe food is number 2, and shelter to keep you safe from unfriendlies would be priority number 3. None of these require flashlights, or any other electrical device. Taking care of these necessities during a society-debilitating event will likely keep a person busy. 

Flashlights are one way to see things after dark, and there are others that have been used successfully for thousands of years. Since you have camped in the mountains for extended periods of time, this information should not be news to you. The moon makes a great night light for walking around outside after dark, and I've mentioned alternatives for indoor use.

Back on topic.....it would be nice to know if Henry's initial design passed the EMP test, or if he needed to modify it with additional shielding for it to pass. If the basic design was adequate, then all similar sized lights of similar design "should" also be able to withstand EMP. The electronic complexity of Henry's design would likely make them more susceptible to EMP damage, vs a design with basic buck, boost, or combination driver, with no advanced logic circuits.


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## braddy (Feb 6, 2015)

I covered that very early, I am a long time prepper, for man decades, to quote my earlier post which I thought answered the standard prepper questions, ""My food and water, and temperature, and gun needs are fine, but I want those night time hours, because just like in the old days, the night time is time to get plenty of constructive things done indoors.""

I talk to preppers all the time that want to discuss guns and most know about guns, food, and water, but many don't talk about flashlights and the importance of the nighttime hours to doing all the things that would need doing if your days are spent on the new chores that you would be doing during the day, not to mention lighting for security and your guns, for treating injuries and illnesses that would be cropping up at an increased level, and searching buildings and your own homes' dark recesses, and batteries for your entertainment, like DVDs.

Batteries would be important, lighting would be important, especially if you have children. About the only thing that would bother me for the first 18 months, would be the hassle of hauling and purifying my water and fetching my cooking fuel after my stocks ran out, and having good non-fire lighting at night, especially indoors.

Which reminds me of another reason that you want to be able to choose when you cook, there may be periods when you would not like to have cooking odors every day.


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## Grizzman (Feb 6, 2015)

I recently watched the NBC TV series, Revolution. If you'd like to see how modern society "may" learn to cope with a complete lack of electricity, check it out. They seem to be doing fine. It's available on Netflix.


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## braddy (Feb 6, 2015)

I don't have television and netflix.


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## Grizzman (Feb 6, 2015)

Okay. That was a general statement to all participants of this thread.


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## braddy (Feb 6, 2015)

What kind of show is it, what are they doing?

A good series can be checked out when the DVD reaches the library after a couple of years.


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## Grizzman (Feb 7, 2015)

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]Season 1 began in 2012, so it may be available soon if it's not already.

[/FONT][FONT=arial, sans-serif]From Google:[/FONT]

[FONT=arial, sans-serif]Fifteen years after an unknown event has caused all electricity to stop working, plunging the world into another dark age, people have adjusted to life without planes, high-tech communication, and electricity. In small farming communities, life seems sweeter at this slower pace, but danger and myste[/FONT]ry lurk in the shadows. After the militia kills a man who -- supposedly -- had something to do with the blackout, his daughter teams with unlikely allies to determine the truth about the cataclysm in order to reclaim the future.


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## WalkIntoTheLight (Feb 7, 2015)

braddy said:


> I covered that very early, I am a long time prepper, for several decades, to quote my earlier post which I thought answered the standard prepper questions, ""My food and water, and temperature, and gun needs are fine, but I want those night time hours, because just like in the old days, the night time is time to get plenty of constructive things done indoors.""
> 
> I talk to preppers all the time that want to discuss guns and most know about guns, food, and water, but many don't talk about flashlights and the importance of the nighttime hours to doing all the things that would need doing if your days are spent on the new chores that you would be doing during the day, not to mention lighting for security and your guns, for treating injuries and illnesses that would be cropping up at an increased level, and searching buildings and your own homes' dark recesses, and batteries for your entertainment, like DVDs.
> 
> ...



Well, I really hope that preppers like that continue to sound nuts. Because if all your effort ever does come to be useful, the rest of us are all screwed. Luckily, the overwhelming odds are that you're completely wasting your time, and are bordering on paranoia.

IMO, preparing for the zombie apocalypse is a waste of time. But, everyone needs a hobby. For myself, I'll just happily joined the zombies... they look like they're having a lot more fun.


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## braddy (Feb 7, 2015)

Wow, you call me nuts?

Why would people being prepared for storms, lay-offs, earthquakes, hurricanes and such make you that mad?

I know for a fact that it isn't a waste of time since I have benefited from it greatly several times in the last few years by having food during work slow downs, and of course millions use their preparations during major events, like hurricanes. Growing up in hurricane country is quite an experience.

Prepping is also about self sufficiency, frugality, and learning old skills, from gardening to making foods from scratch. I enjoy history and reading, and I like duplicating things from the past, from grinding wheat to making fresh pasta, or making beer, or mayonnaise or marshmallows, or Jerky or whatever, it is all part a self sufficient lifestyle, and of course the guns and flashlights and all the other great things that tie into it, many of us are campers and that is an easy start to prepping.

Millions of Americans grew up in areas where we had to be able to do without services for up to 2 weeks, and had to be prepared, it is second nature to many of us, and we also know that history isn't over.


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## WalkIntoTheLight (Feb 8, 2015)

braddy said:


> Wow, you call me nuts?
> 
> Why would people being prepared for storms, lay-offs, earthquakes, hurricanes and such make you that mad?



Being prepared for storms, earthquakes, hurricanes makes sense. (Lay-offs? Is that an emergency??)

But your following statement is... well... a bit more beyond what most people would consider normal preparedness:



braddy said:


> About the only thing that would bother me for the first 18 months, would be the hassle of hauling and purifying my water and fetching my cooking fuel after my stocks ran out, and having good non-fire lighting at night, especially indoors.



You're preparing for emergencies lasting longer than 18 months? That's "end of the world" scenarios.


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## more_vampires (Feb 8, 2015)

Ease up a bit on the crazy, folks.

I don't go anywhere near that far, but it's not uncommon for a prepper to look at 1-5 years. Some things come in tiny bottles that don't spoil and can sit there 25 years. It isn't about having a forklift pallet of Cheez Wiz, more about the background knowledge. Can you improvise a solar cooker and pressure cooker combo? It's more important to have that knowledge and experience than it is to have one.

Making beer is fun! Making jerky is fun! Does everyone need to know how to work hot iron by improvised charcoal? No. Make and shoot bows and arrows? No. Make soap? No.

We all need a hobby. Some of us enjoy the Zombie Apocalypse concept as a mental exercise. 



WalkIntoTheLight said:


> preparing for the zombie apocalypse is a waste of time. But, everyone needs a hobby. For myself, I'll just happily joined the zombies... they look like they're having a lot more fun.



OT: There's a great comedy zombie movie about that called "Deadheads." The two main characters are zombies. They make non-stop pop culture references to the 80's and 90's.


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## braddy (Feb 8, 2015)

WalkIntoTheLight 

Interesting that you turn 18 months into ""You're preparing for emergencies lasting longer than 18 months"", what bothers you so much about self sufficiency and being prepared?

Rather than endure your digs and jabs, why don't you just tell us about what disturbs you about us in America that are into being prepared?

Are you the type that dislikes camping and hunting, tell us something about how you live and dislike the idea of having lot's of food and some guns, and such, it saves me a fortune in my shopping bills which is important to me and for someone that dislikes grocery shopping it fits me very well since I would rather buy my canned tuna on sale every few years, rather than 2 or 3 cans at a time, it is also combined with my love for camping, with so little information from you, I have no idea what you are imagining, or thinking.


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## braddy (Feb 8, 2015)

more_vampires said:


> Ease up a bit on the crazy, folks.
> I don't go anywhere near that far, but it's not uncommon for a prepper to look at 1-5 years. Some things come in tiny bottles that don't spoil and can sit there 25 years. It isn't about having a forklift pallet of Cheez Wiz, more about the background knowledge. Can you improvise a solar cooker and pressure cooker combo? It's more important to have that knowledge and experience than it is to have one.
> Making beer is fun! Making jerky is fun! Does everyone need to know how to work hot iron by improvised charcoal? No. Make and shoot bows and arrows? No. Make soap? No.
> We all need a hobby. Some of us enjoy the Zombie Apocalypse concept as a mental exercise.



You make the good points, for people who camp, who hunt, who like doing things themselves, who like history and the pioneer days, who buy in bulk during big sales to save money, prepping kind of grows out of that.

America is a little different from other nations, many don't realize that we have about 22 million military veterans, that we come from adventurous stock and value rugged independence, we like to do for ourselves, when I look at world history, including the history in our lifetimes, I say the more the merrier, I love that suburban wives are becoming more prepared, I also notice that the government is using the 3 day warning less and less, and is starting to advise being prepared for 10 days, or 2 weeks.

It is also interesting to see the more detailed and informative government suggestions of the 1950s and early 60s when being prepared was more expected of the individual family unit.

Prepping is also a great excuse to do those fun things you mention like making soap, or visiting the gun range, or getting new camping gear, or learning to make wine, or buying flashlights, I think that a lot of people who it disturbs, are just not into such things and are not hands on people or hobbyists, or frugal grocery shoppers, the idea of learning how to make their own yeast, or make a knife on a homemade forge seems bizarre to them rather than adventurous and exciting.


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## ForrestChump (Feb 8, 2015)

@ Everybody: Just incase you guys missed it, the title of the thread is:* "Are you're flashlights EMP-protected?"


*And yes, water is wet and it is very handy when you're thirsty.


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## WalkIntoTheLight (Feb 8, 2015)

braddy said:


> Interesting that you turn 18 months into ""You're preparing for emergencies lasting longer than 18 months"", what bothers you so much about self sufficiency and being prepared?



My mistake. You're only preparing for a zombie apocalypse lasting 18 months, not 19 or 20 months. That makes you sound a lot more sensible. In any case, it's good that you've got your flashlights EMP protected and zombie-protected; you wouldn't want to be unprepared for that.


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## idleprocess (Feb 8, 2015)

ForrestChump said:


> @ Everybody: Just incase you guys missed it, the title of the thread is:* "Are you're flashlights EMP-protected?"
> 
> 
> *And yes, water is wet and it is very handy when you're thirsty.


True, the discussion in this thread has wandered outside the stated topic's narrow perimeter, but I feel that this has been an expansion of _criticism_ of the topic - namely is EMP resistance _as a design feature_ relevant in a small battery-powered device that _by its nature_ is already quite resistant to the phenomenon?

Edit: When we talk about EMP, we're generally referring to high-altitude nuclear explosions, catastrophic solar flares, or some non-nuclear device such as an explosively-pumped flux compression generator - all of which will cover an extremely wide area and likely be devastating to grid-connected electronics. Something targeted such as the Boeing CHAMP concept, a much more localized directional electronic disruptor ranging from vehicle mounted to handheld, or some of the "EMP grenades" being developed will likely distribute much more energy over the targeted area than an EMP and often rely on different mechanisms of action - such as extremely powerful microwave transmitters.


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## braddy (Feb 8, 2015)

WalkIntoTheLight said:


> My mistake. You're only preparing for a zombie apocalypse lasting 18 months, not 19 or 20 months. That makes you sound a lot more sensible. In any case, it's good that you've got your flashlights EMP protected and zombie-protected; you wouldn't want to be unprepared for that.



Seriously, what is with the attitude and hostility? 

You have already sufficiently made it clear that you think the thread topic is stupid, why keep trolling the thread?


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## ForrestChump (Feb 8, 2015)

idleprocess said:


> True, the discussion in this thread has wandered outside the stated topic's narrow perimeter, but I feel that this has been an expansion of _criticism_ of the topic - namely is EMP resistance _as a design feature_ relevant in a small battery-powered device that _by its nature_ is already quite resistant to the phenomenon?




Well said.

As for most everything else in this thread


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## LetThereBeLight! (Feb 9, 2015)

LetThereBeLight! said:


> An electromagnetic pulse [EMP], which could be the result of a solar flare or a nuclear weapon or an EMP weapon will destroy all electronics including our highly prized lights and thus they will not work.
> 
> You can protect your lights in what is called a Faraday Cage.
> 
> ...




I have really enjoyed the discussion over these many pages!

And while I am fine with a Moderator closing this thread, should he or she so decide, I want to state that I will not abandon my galvanized steel trash can until a reference to a report is cited, written by a properly credentialed person, that unequivocally states with sufficient documentation the following: that in and of themselves LED flashlights are inherently protected from the phenomena described above.

With respect to all posters, in a world rife with increasing economic and miiltary tensions, until science can show me otherwise, my surplus lights will stay protected.


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## Norm (Feb 9, 2015)

LetThereBeLight! said:


> My research said it must be one that is galvanized steel.


What so special about galvanised steel? In fact I 'm sure it would be way down the list of desirable metals.

In my experience, faraday screens are made from any conductive material, I seen many examples made from silver plated copper. They are not terribly unusual, any decent communications work shop should have a screened room.

Example.

Norm


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## LetThereBeLight! (Feb 10, 2015)

Norm said:


> What so special about galvanised steel? In fact I 'm sure it would be way down the list of desirable metals.
> 
> In my experience, faraday screens are made from any conductive material, I seen many examples made from silver plated copper. They are not terribly unusual, any decent communications work shop should have a screened room.
> 
> ...



Point appreciated, nothing special about it, it was just what I read from two different sources and I can only speculate that a galvanized steel can is more available and much less costly than silver plated copper but that is just speculation!


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## ForrestChump (Feb 10, 2015)

LetThereBeLight! said:


> Point appreciated, nothing special about it, it was just what I read from two different sources and I can only speculate that a galvanized steel can is more available and much less costly than silver plated copper but that is just speculation!



I was thinking price as well, MUCH cheaper than a sheet of steel.

Dumb question: would chicken wire work?


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## Norm (Feb 10, 2015)

ForrestChump said:


> Dumb question: would chicken wire work?



Google it 

Norm


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## recDNA (Feb 10, 2015)

Ratheon is down the street from my house. Flashlights would be the least of my worries in an emp event.


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## Fleetwood (Feb 10, 2015)

If I start to worry about my flashlights surviving a nuclear event then that is when I know I've taken the hobby too far, and will take a step back from it. There's geeky (which is fine) but that is past geeky.


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## braddy (Feb 10, 2015)

Fleetwood said:


> If I start to worry about my flashlights surviving a nuclear event then that is when I know I've taken the hobby too far, and will take a step back from it. There's geeky (which is fine) but that is past geeky.




Of course the actual discussion is will the flashlights survive EMP exposure, not nuclear bombs.


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## ForrestChump (Feb 10, 2015)

^^^^^^^^


This is bad for the soldier.


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## braddy (Feb 11, 2015)

They used to do a lot of that, back when we used to explode atomic weapons here in America.

http://www.amusingplanet.com/2008/07/how-to-watch-nuclear-explosion.html


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## more_vampires (Feb 11, 2015)

ForrestChump said:


> ^^^^^^^^
> This is bad for the soldier.





braddy said:


> They used to do a lot of that, back when we used to explode atomic weapons here in America.
> http://www.amusingplanet.com/2008/07/how-to-watch-nuclear-explosion.html



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LLCF7vPanrY

Some guys I knew fried a cell phone with a directed RF transmission. Admittedly, a flashlight doesn't have an antenna designed to receive EM radiation, but still...

Chilling video is chilling. Watch it with headphones. It is done in the style of "Wargames." An interesting game, the only winning move is not to play.

How about a nice game of chess?


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## bladesmith3 (Feb 11, 2015)

I live just a few miles from NORAD probably the worlds largest magnet for EMP attack. close enough that whatever makes the EMP would probably kill me. LOL


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## ForrestChump (Feb 11, 2015)

bladesmith3 said:


> I live just a few miles from NORAD probably the worlds largest magnet for EMP attack. close enough that whatever makes the EMP would probably kill me. LOL


 
At least you wouldn't have to worry about your lights. :sick2:


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## idleprocess (Feb 11, 2015)

more_vampires said:


> Some guys I knew fried a cell phone with a directed RF transmission. Admittedly, a flashlight doesn't have an antenna designed to receive EM radiation, but still...



In addition to the antenna, a phone also has a fairly sensitive receiver (by consumer electronics standards) designed to receive and amplify faint signals that at their maximum planned levels found in the field are still many orders of magnitude lower than your acquaintances likely dumped into it. Screw up the baseband processor likely tied into the modem chip and it's probably bricked even if the other chips are unaffected by the watts of focused RF.


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## xdayv (Feb 11, 2015)

bladesmith3 said:


> I live just a few miles from NORAD probably the worlds largest magnet for EMP attack. close enough that whatever makes the EMP would probably kill me. LOL



You would benefit from the EMP shield of the NORAD...


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