# SureFire C3 Could Meet My Needs at Work?



## My3kidsfather (Jun 21, 2009)

Presently have SF E2DL doing the job of night work here in Alberta (a great light too). Looking for a better incan light that can reach out maybe 150-200 yards or better to show movement in the dark. After working with leds for a while, I have heard and hope an incan will be more effective in inclement weather and shows up hungry animals in the dark better than an led can. 

Would a SF C3 with two 17500's driving a incan bulb (no idea of what bulb yet.. maybe a Lumens Factory bulb?) be able to reach out that far with a bit of spill to walk with? Or does it need three good rcr123a's for a bulb with higher voltage for the lumens vs. runtime? Hoping for 40 minutes or more runtime. I already have a holster for the 6P/C3 types.

Is there a better setup for this C3?


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## Kestrel (Jun 21, 2009)

My3KidsDad! said:


> Presently have SF E2DL doing the job of night work here in Alberta (a great light too). Looking for a better incan light that can reach out maybe 150-200 yards or better to show movement in the dark. After working with leds for a while, I have heard and hope an incan will be more effective in inclement weather and shows up hungry animals in the dark better than an led can.
> 
> Would a SF C3 with two 17500's driving a incan bulb (no idea of what bulb yet.. maybe a Lumens Factory bulb?) be able to reach out that far with a bit of spill to walk with? Or does it need three good rcr123a's for a bulb with higher voltage for the lumens vs. runtime? Hoping for 40 minutes or more runtime. I already have a holster for the 6P/C3 types.
> 
> Is there a better setup for this C3?


Not an incan expert here, but I know that the best (i.e. highest power density) option for the SF C3 is 2x17500, and that Mdocod has said (IIRC) that there really aren't any good high-output incan LA's for that config. Since you don't have the light yet, have you thought about a 18mm Fivemega (or similar) SureFire-compatible body of the same length? 2x18500 might give you more options with regards to current limits, i.e. a higher discharge rate becomes possible with 2x18500. I know that you'll be in desperate need of incan runtime from a C3 body of only modest (2x17500) capacity. My two lumens,


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## USM0083 (Jun 21, 2009)

My3KidsDad! said:


> Presently have SF E2DL doing the job of night work here in Alberta (a great light too). Looking for a better incan light that can reach out maybe 150-200 yards or better to show movement in the dark. After working with leds for a while, I have heard and hope an incan will be more effective in inclement weather and shows up hungry animals in the dark better than an led can.
> 
> Would a SF C3 with two 17500's driving a incan bulb (no idea of what bulb yet.. maybe a Lumens Factory bulb?) be able to reach out that far with a bit of spill to walk with? Or does it need three good rcr123a's for a bulb with higher voltage for the lumens vs. runtime? Hoping for 40 minutes or more runtime. I already have a holster for the 6P/C3 types.
> 
> Is there a better setup for this C3?



I ran a G3 with a LF HO-9 and a pair of AW 17500s for about a year, and it's a great setup. About 40 mins of runtime and 180 lumens out the front, according to MrGman's measurements. Outdoors, those 180 lumens blows away brighter cool white LEDs like a Fenix TK10. The colors stand out much better, and a HO-9 throws pretty good, though 150-200 yards may be stretching it, unless there is no light pollution. 

In my tests, the HO-9 is a fair bit brighter on 2 x 18650s.

My current compact incan setup is a Fivemega 2x18650 body, G26 Sunlight bi-pin reflector, and a WA1111 bulb. Batteries are IMR 18650s. I estimate runtime to be 15-20 minutes and output around 500 torch lumens. Very bright, but fairly floody. I've tried this setup with the LF IMR-9 lamp, and it's not quite as bright but way more floody. The HO-9/EO-9 throw better than the IMR-9, IMO. 

An EO-9 powered by a pair of the new AW 2600 ma cells would give you 280 torch lumens for ~65 minutes


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## GreyShark (Jun 21, 2009)

FM's Sunlight module is going to be your best bet for throw in a C3. I use mine with an 1166 and 3x IMR 16340's. While the 3 little IMR's are only rated at 550mah the 1166 draws half of what the 1111 does on 2x IMR 18500's so the runtime is going to work out about the same, a little under 15 minutes. In a 3 cell light I figure you may as well go with the 3x 16340 and 1166. While this setup is short on runtime it's long on output and once properly focussed will handily out-throw a Malkoff M60 LED drop in. 150 yards would be within its capabilities. If you need more runtime you can always carry a few extra IMR 16340's fully charged and ready to go. An SC1 spares carrier loaded with the small IMR cells will add half an hour to what's already in the light.

If you really need the runtime then you are pretty much going to have to go for a bigger light. I would recommend a C size MagLite host and Gold Dragon 26700's. These batteries will drop right in that host and are rated for 3000mah. If you want the shortest light possible a 3C Mag with 2 26700's and an 1164 bulb would probably be the best bet. Otherwise I have had success with my 4C Mag running 3x 26700's and an 1166 bulb. The runtime is great and the throw is awesome. With some fitting two of AW's 26500's and an 1164 would probably work well in a 2C Mag.


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## My3kidsfather (Jun 21, 2009)

Kestrel said:


> Not an incan expert here, but I know that the best (i.e. highest power density) option for the SF C3 is 2x17500, and that Mdocod has said (IIRC) that there really aren't any good high-output incan LA's for that config. Since you don't have the light yet, have you thought about a 18mm Fivemega (or similar) SureFire-compatible body of the same length? 2x18500 might give you more options with regards to current limits, i.e. a higher discharge rate becomes possible with 2x18500. I know that you'll be in desperate need of incan runtime from a C3 body of only modest (2x17500) capacity. My two lumens,



Kestral- Thinking you are saying 'decide if it's a C3 I want'... or whether I will open up the door to other solutions to the problem. Thanks for the honesty.


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## My3kidsfather (Jun 22, 2009)

USM0083 said:


> I ran a G3 with a LF HO-9 and a pair of AW 17500s for about a year, and it's a great setup. About 40 mins of runtime and 180 lumens out the front, according to MrGman's measurements. Outdoors, those 180 lumens blows away brighter cool white LEDs like a Fenix TK10. The colors stand out much better, and a HO-9 throws pretty good, though 150-200 yards may be stretching it, unless there is no light pollution.
> 
> In my tests, the HO-9 is a fair bit brighter on 2 x 18650s.
> 
> ...



USM0083- So you are saying.. with 2x18650's in a Fivemega body driving a incan bulb (don't know the names of incan bulbs so a Wa1111 means nothing to me) or the Lumens Factory's HO-9 should throw well and last for what, 30 minutes? That may do the job..

I am thinking now of putting together a C3 body, two AW 17500's and a suitable bulb like the HO-9 just to fit on my night-work belt replacing my SF E2DL. It won't meet the criteria but will be handy just the same while pursuing the real solution- a bigger body, higher-capacity batteries, bigger reflector, nastier bulb?


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## My3kidsfather (Jun 22, 2009)

GreyShark said:


> If you really need the runtime then you are pretty much going to have to go for a bigger light. I would recommend a C size MagLite host and Gold Dragon 26700's. These batteries will drop right in that host and are rated for 3000mah. If you want the shortest light possible a 3C Mag with 2 26700's and an 1164 bulb would probably be the best bet. Otherwise I have had success with my 4C Mag running 3x 26700's and an 1166 bulb. The runtime is great and the throw is awesome. With some fitting two of AW's 26500's and an 1164 would probably work well in a 2C Mag.



GreyShark- The runtime is important. 15-20 minutes is not long enough to make it one way on a trip, so we need probably at least 40 minutes. 

So I hear you saying use a maglight body, with capacity for C-cells aplenty, using an 1166 bulb. I am not a modding guy who can whip up solutions to ill fitting parts. Would I be ahead of the game by simply ordering a Black Bear's "Bear Cub" with the 220 lumens and 90 minutes of runtime or maybe even order their "Polar Bear" model?


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## mdocod (Jun 22, 2009)

Effective target identification at that range is really pushing it for the smaller D26 based reflectors. I think at bare minimum you should be looking at a D36 option, but more likely, a full size SF turbo-head. 

Answer the following to help us help you a bit better:

Would a large turbohead (~2.5" diameter) be alright for this light? Or are you really hoping for something more compact?

How long a flashlight are you willing to tolerate to accomplish this? Is the 2x18500 (3xCR123) length about the maximum or are you willing to go with something in the 2x18650/3x18500 category?

What is the price limit for the entire unit, taking into consideration a charger (if needed), possible bulbs to experiment with, flashlight, batteries, maybe spare batteries...


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## USM0083 (Jun 22, 2009)

My3KidsDad! said:


> USM0083- So you are saying.. with 2x18650's in a Fivemega body driving a incan bulb (don't know the names of incan bulbs so a Wa1111 means nothing to me) or the Lumens Factory's HO-9 should throw well and last for what, 30 minutes? That may do the job..
> 
> I am thinking now of putting together a C3 body, two AW 17500's and a suitable bulb like the HO-9 just to fit on my night-work belt replacing my SF E2DL. It won't meet the criteria but will be handy just the same while pursuing the real solution- a bigger body, higher-capacity batteries, bigger reflector, nastier bulb?



Courtesy of MD: https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/161536

Cell configuration: 2x17500
Bulb Options:
LF D26 ES-9: 7W, 115 - 75 lumen in 73 minutes
LF D26 SR-9: 9W, 160 - 100 lumen in 51 minutes
LF D26 HO-9: 12W, 215 - 132 lumen in 40 minutes
LF D26 EO-9: 15W, 268 - 162 lumen in 30 minutes
SF P90: 9W, 151 - 94 lumen in 52 minutes


Cell configuration: 2x18650
Bulb Options:
LF D26 ES-9: 7W, 117 - 77 lumen in 147 minutes
LF D26 SR-9: 10W, 163 - 110 lumen in 102 minutes
LF D26 HO-9: 12W, 219 - 145 lumen in 80 minutes
LF D26 EO-9: 15.5W, 280 - 188 lumen in 60 minutes
SF P90: 9.5W, 154 - 103 lumen in 104 minutes
SF P91: 20W, 360 - 215 lumen in 43 minutes

************************************
Welch Allyn makes medical diagnostic equipment, and many users build lights around their bi-pin bulbs. One of the most common and beloved is a Mag85. https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/113100
I built my Mag85 around a Mag 3C body powered by 3 x 26500 li-ion cells.

Here's a link to FMs D26 Sunlight mod: https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/219828

MD makes a good point that a D26 sized reflector is really pushing it for the amount of throw you want, although for a quick and easy upgrade a HO-9/17500 combo is not too expensive an should be effective to 100 yards. 

Something like a Wolf Eyes M90 is probably more in line with what your want. http://www.pts-flashlights.com/products/product.aspx?pid=1-140-20-40-88-6040

A cheaper alternative is a Ultrafire WF-500. I had one with a Lumens Factory HO-R5 lamp and it was really bright, around 500 torch lumens (according to my informal light box test) and relatively compact. https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/173538

Here's a link to some indoor beamshots i did with the WF-500/HO-R5. 
https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/188161


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## mdocod (Jun 22, 2009)

USM0083 said:


> ....
> Something like a Wolf Eyes M90 is probably more in line with what your want. http://www.pts-flashlights.com/products/product.aspx?pid=1-140-20-40-88-6040




I was thinking more along the lines of a LumensFactory Seraph SP-9. The Wolf-Eyes and Pila systems are pretty much obsolete now with the advent of the D36>SF-C head adapter from LF there. Much better flexibility long term with a Seraph.


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## GreyShark (Jun 22, 2009)

My3KidsDad! said:


> So I hear you saying use a maglight body, with capacity for C-cells aplenty, using an 1166 bulb. I am not a modding guy who can whip up solutions to ill fitting parts. Would I be ahead of the game by simply ordering a Black Bear's "Bear Cub" with the 220 lumens and 90 minutes of runtime or maybe even order their "Polar Bear" model?



It's dead simple. To build the light I use for 150-200 yard illumination you would need the following.

1x 4C MagLite
1x Borofloat lens
1x FiveMega metal reflector for C [email protected]
1x FiveMega G4 bi-pin socket for [email protected]
1x WA 1166 bi-pin bulbs
3x Golden Dragon 26700 Li-Ion batteries

To put it together unscrew the Mag's head and pop in the bi-pin socket just like changing the stock bulb. The 1166 bulb plugs right into the socket. Then unscrew the bezel ring and install the reflector and lens. Then cut a couple coils off the tail cap spring to make a little extra room for the batteries. Then drop the three 26700's in. Done!

I believe mine cost just around $100 to put together.This light is around 700 lumens of screaming white incan goodness. Though much larger than a C3 it will throw as far as you want it to and will have a runtime of an hour or more. I charge my 26700's on my Pila IBC charger which I already had. It does a fine job with no modifications but can only take one at a time. If you built a special holder it could do two at a time.

It would be possible to build an 1166 with 3x 18500's in a SureFire compatible FM host. I've been thinking about it myself. It would be considerably smaller than a 4C MagLite but it would still be fairly long. The throw and the runtime may meet your needs but just barely. It would most likely cost more to put together than the Mag. But if small is important it would be a decent option.


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## Outdoors Fanatic (Jun 22, 2009)

My3KidsDad! said:


> Presently have SF E2DL doing the job of night work here in Alberta (a great light too). Looking for a better incan light that can reach out maybe 150-200 yards or better to show movement in the dark. After working with leds for a while, I have heard and hope an incan will be more effective in inclement weather and shows up hungry animals in the dark better than an led can.
> 
> Would a SF C3 with two 17500's driving a incan bulb (no idea of what bulb yet.. maybe a Lumens Factory bulb?) be able to reach out that far with a bit of spill to walk with? Or does it need three good rcr123a's for a bulb with higher voltage for the lumens vs. runtime? Hoping for 40 minutes or more runtime. I already have a holster for the 6P/C3 types.
> 
> Is there a better setup for this C3?


Try the LF EO-9 with 2x AW17500 or the IMR-9 with 2x IMR batteries. You might want to get a Leef 2x18650 body for extended runtimes, though... From my experience, this is the best throwing setup for the C3/9P series.


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## Kestrel (Jun 22, 2009)

My3KidsDad! said:


> Thinking you are saying 'decide if it's a C3 I want'... or whether I will open up the door to other solutions to the problem.


I know you're looking at the SF C3, and they are great, I have one as my primary light, happily running 2x17500. It is a very good size, perfectly sized for general use and great for daily carry with a holster (and it sounds like you already have a holster that will work). However, I am happily running a Malkoff M60 LED module. If I was running incan, I would very much want the extra capacity of 2x18500 in a host of identical exterior size – like the Leef or FiveMega bodies. You still get to use the SureFire bezel and the wonderful SureFire Z41 tailcap (the standard tailcap like on the SF 6P). If you can handle an additional 35mm more length than that, 2x18650 is a fantastic configuration, some of the new cells of this size have incredible capacities these days.

Other folks here know _way_ more about incan LA’s, so they’ll give you good advice. Sounds like you need something inclined toward throw, so the larger bulbs like WA1111 etc may be going in the wrong direction. Also, there is no way that you’ll get the runtime that you want in those high outputs. I’ve heard many good things about the Lumens Factory bulbs, especially that they are great throwers.

If you really need throw and can handle considerably greater size, Mdocod has a good suggestion in the SureFire 2.5” turbohead. That will certainly provide sufficient throw, albeit with minimal spill, so I’m not sure if that specialized a solution will work for your needs – perhaps you also find needing the light for occasional close-up duty. I do have photos of a SureFire C3 and what the SureFire 2.5” turboheads look like in the thread in my signature line. I also have some beamshots, some of which are from the turbohead, so you can see how narrow the beam will be from such a highly-focused configuration. (Although, everything in that thread of mine is LED and is written toward C-cell bodies and low-voltage configurations, so it’s not exactly what you’re looking for.) You might find some of the photos useful, however.

A complicated question. You want incan, high throw, moderately good runtimes (~40 min), in a handy, holsterable package. Good luck,:huh:


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## 325addict (Jun 22, 2009)

I tested 8(!) different flashlights in the woods a few months ago, there were a number of good ones coming out of this test:

When you want a real thrower, nothing could beat my stock MagCharger. But it is heavy and big,

When it comes to sheer light output for medium distance, with a GREAT flood (so you can see not only were you're walking, but anything that's on both sides too), nothing could beat a 13V setup in a Wolf-Eyes M90 Rattlesnake.

Then, the C3 with a P90 lamp assembly was next best. Less light than the Rattlesnake of course (after all, this setup uses one more cell and a D36 drop-in) but the light was of the same kind: very good for medium distance combined with good flood, so you could see very well anything next to you on both sides as well.

The biggest surprise however was my small P1D. This little beast had a great combination of throw and flood, and is just amazingly bright. But.... and that's what you already noticed: LED-light has all the wrong color for in the woods.... at that time, I didn't have my Wolf Eyes MC-E Sniper. This one is stupidly much brighter than the P1D but has the same beam pattern, quite floody and bright. I'm curious how this one would perform in the woods. Maybe this sheer output can overcome the disadvantages of the color....

If you want more throw out of your C3, I would strongly suggest the Lumens Factory drop-ins over the Surefire ones. I am quite sure, the EO-9 will best meet your requirements, but will only have 30 minutes of runtime on 2X AW 17500s. Next best will be the HO-9 which will just give you 40 minutes.

Let me emphasize that I'm a great fan of the C3. It's such a great allrounder, you can make quite anything of it. It was my first Surefire light, and is still the most used, although I now own six.

I hope this helped you guide a little through the incans. What I just described, are my own findings. Not from "I've read or heard that.....".
No, I personally saw this happen 



Timmo.


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## GreyShark (Jun 22, 2009)

Are the Lumens Factory drop in's really up for throwing 150 yards or more? I don't own one but I find that hard to believe because I have run a P91 on 2x IMR 16340. It is very bright but seems a little less powerful than the 1166 on 3x IMR 16340's or 1111 on 2x IMR 16340's.


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## Outdoors Fanatic (Jun 22, 2009)

GreyShark said:


> Are the Lumens Factory drop in's really up for throwing 150 yards or more? I don't own one but I find that hard to believe because I have run a P91 on 2x IMR 16340. It is very bright but seems a little less powerful than the 1166 on 3x IMR 16340's or 1111 on 2x IMR 16340's.


It's better to get a KT2 + EO-M3T or IMR-M3T if you really need that kind of throw.

By the way, the P91 is all flood when compared to an EO-9... Same as those bi-pin bulbs installed in SureFire C series.


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## jp2515 (Jun 23, 2009)

Outdoors Fanatic said:


> It's better to get a KT2 + EO-M3T or IMR-M3T if you really need that kind of throw.
> 
> By the way, the P91 is all flood when compared to an EO-9... Same as those bi-pin bulbs installed in SureFire C series.



Interesting you mention that, got a used KT turbo head that came with a EO-M3T & MN15. Well lets just say it makes the E2DL & L4 look small. This monster will light up a dark alley really well. 

Anyone got any ideas how to power it? I'm thinking 2 X 17500 in a C2/C3 body.


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## GreyShark (Jun 23, 2009)

Yeah, the turbo heads make a huge difference. I had a KT2 and that's what convinced me to build a hotwite Mag. I figured if I'm already carrying a large reflector I may as well go whole hog and get larger batteries too.

It's interesting that you say the P91 is all flood compared to the EO-9. I guess I'll have to get a couple Lumens Factory drop in's to try out.

The bi-pins in the little D26 reflector are floody but they can be focussed into a decent hot spot. I mostly just love having that kind of output in a light that fits in my pocket. I only wish somebody would make IMR type 18350's to gain a few extra minutes of runtime in these smaller lights.


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## mdocod (Jun 23, 2009)

In my experience, not sure why this is the case, but the EO-9 really doesn't seem much better than an HO-9 in any application. The HO-9 is just a bit tighter of a beam, so I think the lumen difference here only comes out in the form of a wider beam profile. On the other hand, the IMR-9 seems to be a much better designed bulb than either the HO-9 or EO-9, just seems to have a better voltage/CCT setup to get more brilliant light out of than the EO-9. While only consuming ~20% more power I'd estimate that the IMR-9 is at least 50% brighter than an EO-9. 

If you have some time to make the decision... I have recently ordered a bunch of stuff to help round out my collection and I will be making a big gigantic shoot-out thread using mostly seraph parts, lots of LF bulbs, and a few other common bulbs as familiar base-lines. I fear that all the stuff probably won't get here till after I get back from vacation (second week in July), but we'll see... I'll be taking out-door woods environment beam-shots with fixed camera position and settings. 

I'll be comparing the following bulbs/configurations at minimum, possibly more:

Small Head Stuff
IMR-E2
G90/P90/SR-9 D26 type lamp.
HO-9 D26
EO-9 D26
IMR-9 D26
maybe a P91 D26 (mind has an intermittent connection problem at the springs, I'll try to fix it)..
I'll probably throw in a LF R2 module for comparisons sake.

Medium Head Stuff (Mini-Turbo category)
IMR-M3 (in a Z46 [M3 head])
SR-9L D36
HO-13 D36
EO-13 D36
I'll throw in a D36 R2 module (Mirror Finish) for comparisons sake.

Turbo Head Stuff
MN20
MN21
IMR-M3T
IMR-M6
GE787 (need to remember to order another one)
64250/1111 (Need to remember to order another, I broke mine the other day)
64275

If I run into some un-expected income in the next week or 2 (doubtful, ehheh)... I'll see about trying to pick up some more bulbs. I think the MN10/11/15/16 would be ideal to have in the comparison. It would also be nice to have the FM G4 D26 kit to compare in there with some popular WA bulbs but that may be out of the question- In time maybe I can add to the shootout. I'll try to figure out a repeatable position for the beam-shots to be taken from for future additions. 

-Eric

PS: Was out using the IMR-M3T tonight on a pair of AW protected 2200s... This thing really has a great beam to it. I haven't been able to line up a bi-pin bulb in the same class of output to make such a perfect tight splotch of light. Running this bulb on a pair of AW 2600s would probably come pretty close to 40 minutes runtime and the 150+ yard issue would be pretty well covered IMO.


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## Outdoors Fanatic (Jun 23, 2009)

mdocod said:


> In my experience, not sure why this is the case, but the EO-9 really doesn't seem much better than an HO-9 in any application. The HO-9 is just a bit tighter of a beam, so I think the lumen difference here only comes out in the form of a wider beam profile. On the other hand, the IMR-9 seems to be a much better designed bulb than either the HO-9 or EO-9, just seems to have a better voltage/CCT setup to get more brilliant light out of than the EO-9. While only consuming ~20% more power I'd estimate that the IMR-9 is at least 50% brighter than an EO-9.
> 
> If you have some time to make the decision... I have recently ordered a bunch of stuff to help round out my collection and I will be making a big gigantic shoot-out thread using mostly seraph parts, lots of LF bulbs, and a few other common bulbs as familiar base-lines. I fear that all the stuff probably won't get here till after I get back from vacation (second week in July), but we'll see... I'll be taking out-door woods environment beam-shots with fixed camera position and settings.
> 
> ...





> PS: Was out using the IMR-M3T tonight on a pair of AW protected 2200s... This thing really has a great beam to it. I haven't been able to line up a bi-pin bulb in the same class of output to make such a perfect tight splotch of light. Running this bulb on a pair of AW 2600s would probably come pretty close to 40 minutes runtime and the 150+ yard issue would be pretty well covered IMO.



What if you used 2x 18650 IMRs, would it be brighter? I wish Leef would come up with a 2x26500 'C to M' or 2x26500 'C to C' SureFire body...


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## mdocod (Jun 23, 2009)

Outdoors Fanatic said:


> What if you used 2x 18650 IMRs, would it be brighter? I wish Leef would come up with a 2x26500 'C to M' or 2x26500 'C to C' SureFire body...



IMR18650s would be slightly brighter and flatter output through the discharge, but of course, the runtime would not be as long, so it just depends on what the goal is here... I think the OPer wanted ~40 minutes or better runtime, this seemed like a logical option on the edge of that runtime requirement.


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## Sgt. LED (Jun 23, 2009)

Mdocod, or anyone who cares to do it, I'd like to see a pic of an SR-9 beside a pic of a P90 with both of them being powered by 2 18650 cells.

By the numbers they should be about the same brightness but the LF should throw more. Still there's nothing quite like seeing them side by side to make you hit that order button. 

By using the search function all I could find of the SR-9 was 1 single pic done in a living room and no other lights were used in that setting so a comparison could not be made.


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## Outdoors Fanatic (Jun 23, 2009)

Sgt. LED said:


> Mdocod, or anyone who cares to do it, I'd like to see a pic of an SR-9 beside a pic of a P90 with both of them being powered by 2 18650 cells.
> 
> By the numbers they should be about the same brightness but the LF should throw more. Still there's nothing quite like seeing them side by side to make you hit that order button.
> 
> By using the search function all I could find of the SR-9 was 1 single pic done in a living room and no other lights were used in that setting so a comparison could not be made.


You might want to check these beamshots out: http://superfonarik.ru/article_info.php?articles_id=11&article=Beamshots---4--English-


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## Sgt. LED (Jun 23, 2009)

Huge bunch of images!

Is what I'm after on here? Where should I be looking?


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## mdocod (Jun 23, 2009)

Not sure if that side-by-side has ever been done. I never bothered picking up an SR-9 or a P90 as I already had a few lamps in that category from back in the digilight/G&P days of this stuff.


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## angelofwar (Jun 23, 2009)

+1 on the turbohead...I would however use the n1 with a spacer and two primaries/rc's, as from my expierence, the N1, while putting out less overall light, tends to throw farther.


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## My3kidsfather (Jun 23, 2009)

mdocod said:


> Effective target identification at that range is really pushing it for the smaller D26 based reflectors. I think at bare minimum you should be looking at a D36 option, but more likely, a full size SF turbo-head.
> 
> Answer the following to help us help you a bit better:
> 
> ...



mdocod- Turbohead sounds good. Compact is not important. I have chargers now. I like to change things like bulbs and such up, I just do not understand incan parts names and cannot follow some of the threads here regarding incan mods. Learning.


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## My3kidsfather (Jun 23, 2009)

USM0083 said:


> Courtesy of MD: https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/161536
> 
> ************************************
> Welch Allyn makes medical diagnostic equipment, and many users build lights around their bi-pin bulbs. One of the most common and beloved is a Mag85. https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/113100
> ...



USM0083- thanks for the work in finding the links and related info regarding bulbs. I will be remembering the Mag85 bulb and the D26 Sunlight in my research. Have avoided Wolf Eyes Flashlights as I have been sort of stuck on SF's.. I realize the Wolf Eyes bodys take larger capacity 18650 batteries and will consider them if the MagLight 3-C body does not work out. Its good to read your stuff. Thanks.


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## My3kidsfather (Jun 23, 2009)

mdocod said:


> I was thinking more along the lines of a LumensFactory Seraph SP-9. The Wolf-Eyes and Pila systems are pretty much obsolete now with the advent of the D36>SF-C head adapter from LF there. Much better flexibility long term with a Seraph.




mdocod- I had to chuckle here as your talking about obsolete stuff and I have not even heard of like "Seraph" sp-9. Why would the Seraph be more flexable than the Wolf-Eyes and Pila systems?


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## My3kidsfather (Jun 23, 2009)

GreyShark said:


> It's dead simple. To build the light I use for 150-200 yard illumination you would need the following.
> 
> 1x 4C MagLite
> 1x Borofloat lens
> ...



GrayShark- Thankyou for the recipe I will be adding this to my todo list for the near future. I did not know a 4-C MagLight was even available. I assume the Golden Dragon batteries can be exchanged for AW's or similar. I tried to find the FiveMega line of parts- do you have a url for them?

Three 18500's in a Surefire or SureFire headed light sounds like fun. Let us know if you try it out.


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## My3kidsfather (Jun 23, 2009)

Outdoors Fanatic said:


> Try the LF EO-9 with 2x AW17500 or the IMR-9 with 2x IMR batteries. You might want to get a Leef 2x18650 body for extended runtimes, though... From my experience, this is the best throwing setup for the C3/9P series.



Outdoors Fanatic- From your experience does a Leef 2x186500 body take the end cap and heads directly from a SureFire C3? How about the 2-1/2" Turbo head?


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## My3kidsfather (Jun 23, 2009)

Kestrel said:


> I know you're looking at the SF C3, and they are great, I have one as my primary light, happily running 2x17500. It is a very good size, perfectly sized for general use and great for daily carry with a holster (and it sounds like you already have a holster that will work). However, I am happily running a Malkoff M60 LED module. If I was running incan, I would very much want the extra capacity of 2x18500 in a host of identical exterior size – like the Leef or FiveMega bodies. You still get to use the SureFire bezel and the wonderful SureFire Z41 tailcap (the standard tailcap like on the SF 6P). If you can handle an additional 35mm more length than that, 2x18650 is a fantastic configuration, some of the new cells of this size have incredible capacities these days.
> 
> Other folks here know _way_ more about incan LA’s, so they’ll give you good advice. Sounds like you need something inclined toward throw, so the larger bulbs like WA1111 etc may be going in the wrong direction. Also, there is no way that you’ll get the runtime that you want in those high outputs. I’ve heard many good things about the Lumens Factory bulbs, especially that they are great throwers.
> 
> ...



Kestrel- I read your comments with interest and follow your line of thinking. Bulb features and design still puzzles me but that will come with more reading. As to the SF C3, I have decided to get one because it's next and it will replace the E2DL as my night sidelight.

What I have decided as well is to build a 150-200 yard incan from probably a Maglight body using bigger batteries and a HO-type bulb, reflectors, etc. This bigger light will be carried in my bug-out bag until needed each trip. Realistically we cannot make SF C3's do it all.


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## My3kidsfather (Jun 23, 2009)

325addict said:


> When you want a real thrower, nothing could beat my stock MagCharger. But it is heavy and big,
> 
> When it comes to sheer light output for medium distance, with a GREAT flood (so you can see not only were you're walking, but anything that's on both sides too), nothing could beat a 13V setup in a Wolf-Eyes M90 Rattlesnake.
> 
> If you want more throw out of your C3, I would strongly suggest the Lumens Factory drop-ins over the Surefire ones. I am quite sure, the EO-9 will best meet your requirements, but will only have 30 minutes of runtime on 2X AW 17500s. Next best will be the HO-9 which will just give you 40 minutes.Timmo.



325addict- You are the second fellow to suggest using a WolfEyes M90. I will be checking them out. thanks.


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## My3kidsfather (Jun 23, 2009)

mdocod said:


> In my experience, not sure why this is the case, but the EO-9 really doesn't seem much better than an HO-9 in any application. The HO-9 is just a bit tighter of a beam, so I think the lumen difference here only comes out in the form of a wider beam profile. On the other hand, the IMR-9 seems to be a much better designed bulb than either the HO-9 or EO-9, just seems to have a better voltage/CCT setup to get more brilliant light out of than the EO-9. While only consuming ~20% more power I'd estimate that the IMR-9 is at least 50% brighter than an EO-9.
> 
> If you have some time to make the decision... I have recently ordered a bunch of stuff to help round out my collection and I will be making a big gigantic shoot-out thread using mostly seraph parts, lots of LF bulbs, and a few other common bulbs as familiar base-lines. I fear that all the stuff probably won't get here till after I get back from vacation (second week in July), but we'll see... I'll be taking out-door woods environment beam-shots with fixed camera position and settings.
> 
> ...



mdocod- looking forward to reading your experiments soon.


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## GreyShark (Jun 24, 2009)

My3KidsDad! said:


> GrayShark- Thankyou for the recipe I will be adding this to my todo list for the near future.



Once I figured out I could build this whole light for about the same cost as buying a KT2 turbohead I sold the turbohead and built the Mag. It has more run time and I like the switch position better for this kind of light anyway. I find it easier to carry than a C3 with a turbohead also. I can tuck the Mag into my belt no problem but the ratio of the length to width on the C3 with turbohead makes it ride funny. At least for me. The turbohead is also very heavy. The Mag has some shock dampening, the SureFire turbohead doesn't. I still think it's a neat accessory but I don't think it's as good of a solution. 



> I did not know a 4-C MagLight was even available.



I don't see them in stores very often but they're dirt cheap online. Mine cost $16.00.



> I assume the Golden Dragon batteries can be exchanged for AW's or similar.



Nope. The Golden Dragon is a totally different animal. The AW C battery is a 26500 with 2300mah of capacity and don't fit in a C MagLite without boring the light. The Golden Dragon 26700 is longer, has a 3000mah capacity and fits in the C Mag no problem. The Gold Dragon 26700 doesn't seem to be as well known in the flashlight community as the AW 26500 though it has been around longer.

The AW 26500 could be used too, but then you'd need to buy a 3C MagLite instead and bore it out to accommodate the cells. It would be a little shorter in length and a little shorter in runtime.

If you wanted to use AW cells I'd say stick with the 4C MagLite and use protected 2600mah18650's. The price is the same, capacity would be a little greater and you could run the 1185 in addition to the 1166. The only difference is the 18650's are skinnier than the battery tube so you need to make a spacer. I used rolled up cardboard from a toilet paper tube. That's how hi-tech I am.

Really though the Golden Dragon 26700's are a better deal. There's no fitting and there's more capacity. I don't fully understand the new anti-free advertising or whatever rule so I don't want to link but just put 26700 Li-Ion into google and see what you get. They're called "GD" instead of "Golden Dragon."



> I tried to find the FiveMega line of parts- do you have a url for them?



Since FiveMega is a poster and sells stuff through this site I'm hoping this doesn't break the rules.

reflector

https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/207494

socket for bi-pin bulb

https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/179891


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## mdocod (Jun 24, 2009)

My3KidsDad,

The Wolf-Eyes M90 that has been suggested would have very likely been my suggestion a few weeks ago, but there's a new animal in town that can do the same trick and more and the build quality is perfectly adequate for just about anything you could throw at it. 

The idea with the M90, is the ability to use the D36 mini-turbo lamp assemblies, and the advantage here is a nice balance between the larger turbo-reflectors and the smaller D26 reflectors at a reasonable price point. The diameter is similar in size to the M3 (non-turbo Z46) reflector, but I believe it is just ever so slightly larger if measured at the reflector, I'm thinking maybe ~2-4mm larger but I haven't actually measured... My D36 lamps are on the way so I'll be able to give more info on this soon enough...

My Z46 came in today so I can include it in this little comparison photo:







From left to right: Seraph D26 head (SureFire "C" compatible), SureFire Z46 (M3 head), Seraph D36 head (compatible with SF "C" head body), SureFire Millennium turbo-head (KT4/M3T/M4/M6 head) 
Also pictured is a C to M head adapter from the Seraph accessories. 

With a Seraph SP series flashlight, you can use any of these heads, in fact you could also use a KT1/2 (similar to the millennium turbo-head pictured minus the shock isolation). So there are plenty of options. You could start with the D36 and see if it meets your needs, if it doesn't, you could slap a larger turbo-head on there. Either the SP-6 or SP-9 can be extended to a length necessary for any bulb/battery configuration so it's really just a matter of how short you want to be able to make the light if you want to be able to lego your way into a different category for a special occasion. 

The M90, uses it's own proprietary wolf-eyes "thread" sizes, so the interchangeability with SF parts is not available. In the long run, this compatibility factor, even though the part colors won't always match, is a huge plus for being able to build the right tool for the job and experiment with different options. 

The inside of the head of the Seraph body is also a bit different than many alternative D26 SF compatible hosts, and is the "most" compatible with a wide variety of outer spring styles for lamps (the length and diameter varies a bit from D36 to SF turbo lamps to many D26 modules). I would say that the design is ideal for incandescent build options and flexibility. 

IIRC the Seraph is actually quite a bit cheaper than an M90, and if you find that a D36 options doesn't fit the bill, the money spent isn't wasted as all you have to do is upgrade to a bigger reflector. 

-Eric


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## Sgt. LED (Jun 24, 2009)

mdocod said:


> Not sure if that side-by-side has ever been done. I never bothered picking up an SR-9 or a P90 as I already had a few lamps in that category from back in the digilight/G&P days of this stuff.


 
Well at least it isn't hidden around here and I overlooked it. 
Odd though, you'd think with the #'s being so close that someone would of done some comparisons and snapped a couple of pics.
:tinfoil: me.


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## mdocod (Jun 25, 2009)

Sgt. LED said:


> Well at least it isn't hidden around here and I overlooked it.
> Odd though, you'd think with the #'s being so close that someone would of done some comparisons and snapped a couple of pics.
> :tinfoil: me.



I think that because the expected output is so close nobody has bothered, both lamps, as well as MANY of those chinese 9V lamp assemblies all run right around that 1.2A range and perform close enough that comparison shots just may not seem necessary...

-----

My3KidsDad,

I had never really done the math before, but decided to figure out some distances around the house here so I could get a better feel for this "150-200 yard" requirement... We live on ~2.5 acres that is pretty close to square, which, if I did the math right, should be about 110 yards by 110 yards, diagonally about 155 yards. I didn't realize how FAR 150 yards really was till putting this into perspective with some math. Once I found something at an estimated 150 yard range to illuminate, I realized how difficult it is to get ample illumination at this range. 

I'm not sure if you have tried walking off this distance to make sure this is what you really need, or tried a light at this range, getting a lot of light at this range is pretty tricky. Any of the lights in the tactical incan category will technically put down some noticeable lux at this range, but only the big turbo-headed lights are doing it very effectively IMO. Now that I have played with the IMR-3 some more, I'm honestly not sure if the D36 or M3 platform is going to be enough oomf. 

-Eric


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## My3kidsfather (Jun 25, 2009)

mdocod said:


> My3KidsDad,
> 
> I had never really done the math before, but decided to figure out some distances around the house here so I could get a better feel for this "150-200 yard" requirement... We live on ~2.5 acres that is pretty close to square, which, if I did the math right, should be about 110 yards by 110 yards, diagonally about 155 yards. I didn't realize how FAR 150 yards really was till putting this into perspective with some math. Once I found something at an estimated 150 yard range to illuminate, I realized how difficult it is to get ample illumination at this range.
> 
> ...



Eric- I have found that incans do not need to illuminate (like a led does) . What does work is incan color rendition showing movement of black/brown/tan colors at a distance with grey green background. Incans seem to excel at this. So it's not that I need to see everything lite up like daylight at 150 yds, but that movement and color will be seen at 150 yards. My leds do not do this easily. Just try this: find a spruce tree at 50 yds and light it up with a led. Note that the mid-brown colored spruce cones do not show or even seem there. Then try it with one of your better incans. The spruce cones are easily seen as a different color from the tree itself, even at a greater distance. this is what I am seeking with my first incan.

By the way, just bought a 3C and a 4C magLite here with the idea of trying out the ideas the guys have been talking about with bigger batteries, bulbs, etc. The great experiment with incans begins.


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## My3kidsfather (Jun 25, 2009)

mdocod said:


> My3KidsDad,
> 
> The Wolf-Eyes M90 that has been suggested would have very likely been my suggestion a few weeks ago, but there's a new animal in town that can do the same trick and more and the build quality is perfectly adequate for just about anything you could throw at it.
> 
> ...



Eric- I will have to take some time and figure out all these different parts to decide what will work in the future. Thankyou for the pics though that really helps.


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## My3kidsfather (Jun 25, 2009)

GreyShark said:


> (The MagLite)It has more run time and I like the switch position better for this kind of light anyway. I find it easier to carry than a C3 with a turbohead also. I can tuck the Mag into my belt no problem but the ratio of the length to width on the C3 with turbohead makes it ride funny. At least for me. The turbohead is also very heavy. The Mag has some shock dampening, the SureFire turbohead doesn't. I still think it's a neat accessory but I don't think it's as good of a solution.
> 
> The Golden Dragon is a totally different animal. The AW C battery is a 26500 with 2300mah of capacity and don't fit in a C MagLite without boring the light. The Golden Dragon 26700 is longer, has a 3000mah capacity and fits in the C Mag no problem. The Gold Dragon 26700 doesn't seem to be as well known in the flashlight community as the AW 26500 though it has been around longer.
> 
> ...



GreyShark- I have ordered two maglites, a 3C and a 4C. And will be ordering the other parts as I figure it out. One question: What chargers would you recommend to charge the GD 26700's? And I need three GD 26700's for a 4C maglite?


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## 325addict (Jun 25, 2009)

@ My3kidsdad! :

so you decided to buy a C3. That's a good decision :thumbsup:

I don't know if you already bought it, I saw one on CPF Marketplace:

http://www.cpfmarketplace.com/mp/showthread.php?t=194887

It's a black one, fully new in _unopened_ box! I can tell you: a black C3 looks gorgeous 

Timmo.


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## GreyShark (Jun 25, 2009)

My3KidsDad! said:


> GreyShark- I have ordered two maglites, a 3C and a 4C. And will be ordering the other parts as I figure it out. One question: What chargers would you recommend to charge the GD 26700's? And I need three GD 26700's for a 4C maglite?



I'm using a Pila IBC. It can only take one of those cells at a time but if you built a holder for it you could do two at a time. They're 3.7v Li-Ion so they can use the same charger as your other Li-Ion's provided that they physically fit. The 26700 is just about the same length as a 17670 or 18650 but wider.

Yes, it's 3x 26700 for a 4C MagLite. It'll power an 1166 very well but it will blow an 1185 so it's probably delivering more than 12.3v fresh off the charger. You can use that info to avoid unfortunate accidents when trying bulbs from this excellent thread.

https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/179748

A C cell is 50mm long and a 26700 is 70mm long so that should give you an indication of what will fit in what. Sometimes you have to either increase or decrease the length of the tail cap spring to get everything to work right but that's easy. Just clip, stretch or coil your own.


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## mdocod (Jun 25, 2009)

Just noticed an error in my post #36 above. The Z46 is from an M*3* not an M4... typo situation there....

I have corrected it with an edit but it will still appear as incorrect in the quote 

-Eric


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