# Cree XP-E triple R2 into homemade P60 size drop in



## Moddoo (Jun 1, 2009)

EDIT
SALES THREAD
https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/233442

Don't know if this has been done yet.

20mm triple R2 WG star with 20mm Carclo triple "narrow" optic.

I built a beefy aluminum P60 pill to load up with this stuff and a piggyback 7135 driver.

Current draw at the tail:
Low= 150mA
Med= 900mA
High= 2.5A

Must be around 600 lumens on high.
Low is actually a nice useful level.


I had to compare it to a M60F. The beam is tighter, but not a spot at all.
It is actually a blend of 3 squarish beams.
The M60 and the triple on medium "feel" very similar outside.
I like the tint of the triple over the M60.

In reality, it is a nice beam shape though. not too focused, not too flood.






















Malkoff M60F





triple on low





triple on med





triple on high


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## Sgt. LED (Jun 1, 2009)

Hey that's super cool! What is the voltage input range?

Thanks for making me one!




I'm not above begging either, just try me!


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## Moddoo (Jun 1, 2009)

Sgt. LED said:


> Hey that's super cool! What is the voltage input range?
> 
> Thanks for making me one!



These 7135 boards are single Li-ion drivers.

18650 in the 6P.

fuggedaboudit.

don't even try to add a project to my list!:nana:


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## Sgt. LED (Jun 1, 2009)

:mecry: And my birthday is the 6th...............

Anyway that is probably the coolest drop-in ever! Very very nice job.


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## Moddoo (Jun 1, 2009)

Sgt. LED said:


> :mecry: And my birthday is the 6th...............
> 
> Anyway that is probably the coolest drop-in ever! Very very nice job.



haha, happy birthday.

coolest, well, it does shed heat well since it has about 1/2" of aluminum between the star and the driver, and it's a slip fit in the host, with arctic silver to make up the .0005" gap.
I need to compare it to my p7 headlamp... where did I put that...

I am just waiting for the XP-G to come out......


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## Painful Chafe (Jun 1, 2009)

I'm very impressed. It's amazing how something this cool can be thought up and produced by one guy with an idea. If you start making them for sale, don't become too large or successful. Obama will take your company over.

BTW, how warm/hot does it get after a few minutes?


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## Moddoo (Jun 1, 2009)

Painful Chafe said:


> I'm very impressed. It's amazing how something this cool can be thought up and produced by one guy with an idea. If you start making them for sale, don't become too large or successful. Obama will take your company over.
> 
> BTW, how warm/hot does it get after a few minutes?



HAHAHAHA

I need to pot the driver before I run it for too long.
But, since the heat passes to the host immediately, it may get warm outside, but shouldn't overheat inside.

One cool thing about these triples, they do not create all the heat in one central spot like the quad die emitters. should help with junction temps.


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## Sgt. LED (Jun 1, 2009)

You know I do have some knives and lights for trade if cash doesn't tempt you................................................. Now if only it could handle 2 18650's! I have the perfect host in mind.

*Why, why did you have to post about this awesomeness!



*


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## kramer5150 (Jun 1, 2009)

impressive!!! thanks for sharing

if you brought that to the marketplace you could make a killing ($$$)


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## PhantomPhoton (Jun 2, 2009)

Very nice. First I've seen using that setup. I like it.


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## orbital (Jun 2, 2009)

+

So where's the link to Marketplace....

Moddoo, I bet you'll be able to sell fifty (or more) of these @ $70 without problem.


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## copperfox (Jun 2, 2009)

Impressive! Good job. :huh:


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## Chrontius (Jun 2, 2009)

Heck, sell them by the kit. If you can link to components and provide any that need fabrication, I'd build one as such.

OTOH, would another board allow running on primaries?


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## Moddoo (Jun 2, 2009)

Thanks for the kind words guys.
I just had to try these XP-Es in something.

I would love to be able to offer them to you all. 
If I was to ever CONSIDER building these, we need a better driver choice.

These boards took forever to get, and who knows how long it would take to get more.
Besides, marrying them is a PITA.

Then add the new driver cost to the $70...

And then I need some more time...

An easier option would be some copper "pills" for the DIY crowd.

The aluminum is easy to work with, but cannot really be soldered to.
I added some tails of copper to my driver edges to make a positive negative connection


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## NoFair (Jun 2, 2009)

Moddoo said:


> These 7135 boards are single Li-ion drivers.
> 
> 18650 in the 6P.
> 
> ...



Feel free to put one in my headlamp by "mistake"


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## alphazeta (Jun 2, 2009)

Moddoo said:


> ...An easier option would be some copper "pills" for the DIY crowd...



:twothumbs


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## Illum (Jun 2, 2009)

Painful Chafe said:


> I'm very impressed. It's amazing how something this cool can be thought up and produced by one guy with an idea. If you start making them for sale, don't become too large or successful. Obama will take your company over.



LOL, yeah...but your gonna have to climb on the shoulders of the mighty PK before the government takes notice

Moddoo, care to share the development of that nice heatsink you got there?
I'm pretty sure the driver/LED assembly wouldn't be too hard to fix up myself...but that heatsink...I dunno where to get it


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## wildstar87 (Jun 3, 2009)

Moddoo said:


> Thanks for the kind words guys.
> If I was to ever CONSIDER building these, we need a better driver choice.
> 
> These boards took forever to get, and who knows how long it would take to get more.
> Besides, marrying them is a PITA.


 
Shining Beam has the double-sided multi-mode 2.8A AMC7135 driver (they seem to be the only one carrying it), it would be perfect to replace the two boards you are using. Essentially the same thing in one board.

http://www.shiningbeam.com/servlet/the-132/3-dsh-Mode-Regulated-Circuit-Board/Detail


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## supasizefries (Jun 3, 2009)

Holy moly this is awesome.  I will be waiting in line like everyone else if this bad boy goes into "mass" production!


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## Moddoo (Jun 3, 2009)

wildstar87 said:


> Shining Beam has the double-sided multi-mode 2.8A AMC7135 driver (they seem to be the only one carrying it), it would be perfect to replace the two boards you are using. Essentially the same thing in one board.
> 
> http://www.shiningbeam.com/servlet/the-132/3-dsh-Mode-Regulated-Circuit-Board/Detail



Oh, come on, don't you know you can't push these XP-Es past 700mA each.

Thanks man,
I'll pick some up asap.

you guys are wrecking my beauty sleep schedule.


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## LiteFan (Jun 3, 2009)

Soo Cool...put me on the list if there ever is one.


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## toby_pra (Jun 4, 2009)

Looks very interesting!


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## RyanA (Jun 4, 2009)

I've had this thread bookmarked for a while.
https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/205201

It's also possible to piggyback some of the sandwich shoppe boards.

might help with the driver situation, more expensive though.



It would be interesting to see one of these emitter/optic combos wedged into an aleph 2 head.


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## allburger (Jun 4, 2009)

This is one of the sweetest dropins ive seen yet!!! Love it!!! I'm in for one


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## bullettproof (Jun 4, 2009)

If you could drive them at 1.2A each I think it would be a light that would be one of the most impressive lights around!!!!! It would be around 900 Lumens and a pocket rocket it would be with throw!!!!!!

Im in for one it would be a M2XC4 mini!!! and brighter!!!!


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## old4570 (Jun 4, 2009)

Wow , fantastic : 

Any chance of a Driver Tutorial ...
I sure would like to make something similar [ Driver ] for a SSC P7 P60 drop in .


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## Moddoo (Jun 4, 2009)

old4570 said:


> Wow , fantastic :
> 
> Any chance of a Driver Tutorial ...
> I sure would like to make something similar [ Driver ] for a SSC P7 P60 drop in .




I got the idea from here.

https://www.candlepowerforums.com/posts/2923174

the shiningbeam driver listed earlier is a much easier route to go.
I'll have a few in a few days. I'll report on them when I get them.

EDIT: 
crap, they are no longer listed.

I'll inquire about availabiltity.


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## old4570 (Jun 5, 2009)

Moddoo said:


> I got the idea from here.
> 
> https://www.candlepowerforums.com/posts/2923174
> 
> ...



Yikes ! I must have got the last one !! 

2500mAh driver for single 18650 ...... 

Thats why I want to make my own ... 
I ordered a 10PK of the 1400mAh drivers that are used in the sandwich ..
I already have a 5 mode driver , as well a 2 mode driver id like to try . 
Wonder if there are any multi mode 1400mAh drivers ? for 2.8A


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## wildstar87 (Jun 5, 2009)

old4570 said:


> Wonder if there are any multi mode 1400mAh drivers?


 
Sort of... You can order the 16-mode 1A driver from DX, the newer version has been coming with a board that has 3 - AMC7135 chips on it, with one empty spot for another chip. You can solder another one into that empty spot, and bingo you have a 1.4A multi-mode driver.


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## old4570 (Jun 5, 2009)

wildstar87 said:


> Sort of... You can order the 16-mode 1A driver from DX, the newer version has been coming with a board that has 3 - AMC7135 chips on it, with one empty spot for another chip. You can solder another one into that empty spot, and bingo you have a 1.4A multi-mode driver.



Thanks , an option I guess . Not sure my soldering is up to it ? 

Nothing ventured ! 
:thumbsup:


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## Justin Case (Jun 5, 2009)

RyanA said:


> I've had this thread bookmarked for a while.
> https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/205201
> 
> It's also possible to piggyback some of the sandwich shoppe boards.
> ...



The bottom of a 6P neck narrows to around 20mm or maybe a bit less, hence the use of 17mm driver boards in the usual P60 drop-in. If you use one of the Shoppe drivers, you'd probably have to go with one of their 14mm boards, requiring a slight re-design of the heat sink. And as you say, this is an expensive approach -- $36 (plus shipping) for a 2-board SOB1000 sandwich (2000mA total output to drive the 3 parallel XP-E emitters at 667mA each -- close enough to the 700mA rated max forward current).

At the rated 3.4V forward voltage at 700mA forward current, each emitter is drawing ~2.4W, for a total of ~7.1W. If you use 2x16340 Li-ions at a nominal 7.4V and assume a conservative 80% driver efficiency, that gives a calculated tailcap draw of about 1.2A. Completely doable for IMR16340s, borderline for standard Li-Co 16340s.


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## Moddoo (Jun 5, 2009)

Thanks Justin.

I am considering a batch of these.

Because it only involves 1 custom part being made, I may be able to swing it.

The design would be based on the 17mm boards.

you could fit anything smaller if you are creative with epoxy.


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## Justin Case (Jun 5, 2009)

That's cool. I'd buy one if and when you offer one of your heat sinks for sale. Did you get the Carclo optic and triple XP-E star from Cutter?

I'd probably use a 6xAMC7135, 17mm, 2-board sandwich, which nominally puts out 2100mA. It's cheap and relatively efficient when using a single Li-ion. I figure that an IMR18650 can hold 3.7V for at least 20 min at 3A draw, and 3.5V for over 30 min. Since AMC7135 efficiency is essentially Vf/Vbatt, you'd start out at about 3.4/4.2=81%, spend most of the time between 3.4/3.9 and 3.4/3.7 or 87%-92% efficiency, and finish at 3.4/3.5 = 97%.


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## Moddoo (Jun 5, 2009)

Justin Case said:


> That's cool. I'd buy one if and when you offer one of your heat sinks for sale. Did you get the Carclo optic and triple XP-E star from Cutter?



Cool,
Yes, I bought them from cutter.

I'll do a comparison of 3 of the optics this weekend.
I have the narrow front (non-frosted)
frosted medium, and frosted wide


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## Justin Case (Jun 5, 2009)

Moddoo said:


> The aluminum is easy to work with, but cannot really be soldered to.
> I added some tails of copper to my driver edges to make a positive negative connection



You probably can buff and flux pen the heck out of the spots that you want to solder and then quickly do the job.

An alternative could be to drill and tap a small hole in the heat sink. Then you solder a short wire to the ground trace ring of the driver board (actually, probably to any of the connecting holes on the edge of the board, which are electrically connected to the ground trace ring), solder a small ring terminal to the other end of the wire, and use a small machine screw to attach the wire to ground.












StefanFS shows a way to connect the two boards in parallel, but that requires a wire that loops around the edge of the board.





Here is the wiring diagram from NetKidz:





To avoid using the wire that loops around the outside of the top board, you can drill a small hole in the top board very close to the solder pad near Q2. Then run a short piece of pre-tinned wire through the hole and connecting to LED- on the other board (similar to the connection shown in StefanFS's sandwich that is right next to the grey wire that loops around the outside of the top board). Finally, solder a small conical spring to the center anode pad of the bottom board.


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## Moddoo (Jun 5, 2009)

Justin Case said:


> You probably can buff and flux pen the heck out of the spots that you want to solder and then quickly do the job.
> 
> An alternative could be to drill and tap a small hole in the heat sink. Then you solder a short wire to the ground trace ring of the driver board (actually, probably to any of the connecting holes on the edge of the board, which are electrically connected to the ground trace ring), solder a small ring terminal to the other end of the wire, and use a small machine screw to attach the wire to ground.
> 
> Make your AMC7135 sandwich like this (component sides facing each outward) so that you can solder a ground wire to the board. You probably also have to drill a very small hole in the board next to the round solder pad near Q2 to connect LED- between the two boards. Of course, also connect anode to anode, which can be done with a short connecting wire soldered through the center hole.



Thanks for the ideas man.

I have this issue solved.

I will use the single boards from Shiningbeam. (he will have some more in about a week)

I will use a copper washer that is the same size as the OD of the bottom of the module. Solder the washer to the negative pole, and pot everything in place.

I hope this makes sense.

currently getting quotes on the drop in "pills"

you guys really want these???
lovecpf


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## supasizefries (Jun 5, 2009)

Moddoo said:


> currently getting quotes on the drop in "pills"
> 
> you guys really want these???
> lovecpf



I think I can speak for other light junkies..the answer is 

YES YES YES! :thumbsup:


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## Moddoo (Jun 5, 2009)

supasizefries said:


> I think I can speak for other light junkies..the answer is
> 
> YES YES YES! :thumbsup:



Ah geez, OK.

Since I have some delays beyond my control with a couple other projects, I will dive into this.

I have a deal worked out for the module pills.

I need to move 50 pieces to make it worth it.

I'll start a sales thread this evening.


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## RyanA (Jun 5, 2009)




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## Justin Case (Jun 5, 2009)

I would want the heat sink but not a multi-mode AMC7135 board. Single mode would be fine. What PWM controller does the Shiningbeam board use? I probably can disable the multimodes.

So you would solder a copper washer to the ground trace ring of the driver? Then pot the driver and depend on mechanical contact between the washer and the heat sink for ground?


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## Moddoo (Jun 5, 2009)

Justin Case said:


> I would want the heat sink but not a multi-mode AMC7135 board. Single mode would be fine. What PWM controller does the Shiningbeam board use? I probably can disable the multimodes.



HMMM, I will look into creating a single mode from these. Should be simple.



Justin Case said:


> So you would solder a copper washer to the ground trace ring of the driver? Then pot the driver and depend on mechanical contact between the washer and the heat sink for ground?



Almost,
The copper washer will be soldered to the ground trace ring of the driver then pot the driver and the washer is sandwiched between the aluminum heat sink, and the body of the light.

Maybe I need to bust out my MS Paint skills??


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## RyanA (Jun 5, 2009)

+1 on the single mode.

That was an interesting post earlier Justin. I didn't know that sandwich shoppe made 14mm boards. But I would be willing to pay more for a setup just as you've described.


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## ElectronGuru (Jun 5, 2009)

Moddoo said:


> I am just waiting for the XP-G to come out......



Three XP-G's in a single P60 format??


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## LiteFan (Jun 5, 2009)

Moddoo said:


> you guys really want these???
> lovecpf



I do depending on the details


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## Justin Case (Jun 5, 2009)

RyanA said:


> +1 on the single mode.
> 
> That was an interesting post earlier Justin. I didn't know that sandwich shoppe made 14mm boards. But I would be willing to pay more for a setup just as you've described.



14mm (0.55") is the same diameter as a AA battery (about the diameter of a dime). They include

Badboy
Badboy Nexgen
Downboy
GD
Madmax
SOB

In fact, I think only the various Sharks are not 14mm. These boards are small. If you use them for this application, I would definitely pot them. They will need good thermal management. The 3 Cree R2s are going to pull over 7W. If the driver is 80% efficient, that means it has to generate about 8.9W. That means almost 2W being wasted as heat. Now if the driver is 90% efficient, then only about 0.8W is wasted as heat.

Here is a comparison of an SOB1000 to a Luxeon I bare emitter.






Here's an SOB1000 sitting on top of a dime.


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## Moddoo (Jun 5, 2009)

I will be happy to do different drivers.
PM me with special requests.

Sales thread now open
:twothumbs
https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/233442


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## Justin Case (Jun 6, 2009)

RyanA said:


> That was an interesting post earlier Justin. I didn't know that sandwich shoppe made 14mm boards. But I would be willing to pay more for a setup just as you've described.



Addendum to my previous post on the SOB buck driver.

The SOB board is set up for making a sandwich. The big hole next to the inductor is GND. The other big hole near the DC-DC buck converter IC is Vin. There are two LED- holes at J6 and two LED+ holes at J5. Thus, strip and snip 4 pieces of 24 gauge wire, tin the wire, and run the 4 wires vertically to connect GND to GND, Vin to Vin, LED- to LED-, and LED+ to LED+ to make a 2-board sandwich. Then run a second set of LED- and LED+ wires out of the top board of the sandwich to connect the driver sandwich to your LED star.

The main issue I see is making sure that the 3 parallel XP-Es are balanced in terms of Vf. You don't want to have thermal runaway. You could wire the XP-Es in series (nominally 10.2V total voltage drop), but then you run into battery selection issues.

The SOB driver is rated from 3-16V. 3x16340 Li-ions would give about 11.1V, which is greater than the voltage drop from the 3 XP-Es in series. But you also need ~15% voltage headroom (about 1.5V) to run in full regulation. So 3x16340 might not run in full regulation. Hard to say. My guess is that the SOB will run in regulation when the 16340 cells are fresh (since you can start out at 12.6V), and you'll probably run in regulation for multiple tailcap button cycles until the cell voltage runs down and you don't meet the voltage headroom requirement anymore.

4x16340 would give 14.8V, which at first look would seem to solve the issue of running in regulation. But the problem is that freshly charged Li-ions could start out at 4.2V each, or 16.8V total, exceeding the upper voltage limit of the SOB.

So series wired XP-Es (IMO, electrically preferred, but maybe not realistic given the driver constraints for the drop-in) and an SOB2000 sandwich seems to limit you to 3xLi-ions, with some issue of achieving full regulation.


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## Policetacteam (Jun 6, 2009)

These are so cool! I may have missed it but what is the run time on 1 18650 battery!?! Regardless...I have a Moddoo bored out 18650 6P Defender body waiting for a new P60 drop-in. This would be perfect. Please mark me down for one. Moddoo is quickly becoming "The" fabricator! Keep up the great work!


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## Justin Case (Jun 6, 2009)

I'll give you the theory.

For me, I think it's a mistake to drive the triple XP-E R2 star with 8x7135. That forward current level implies a forward voltage of over 3.4V for the LEDs wired in parallel. The XP-E spec is Vf of 3.4V at If of 700mA. Now, the Vf could very well be lower than the spec, which would be very desirable. But if it isn't, then you have a possible problem. If we assume that the Vf at 933mA (2.8A/3) is 3.5V, then to run in regulation, you need Vbatt>Vf+0.12V (0.12V is the voltage drop due to the AMC7135 ICs), or Vbatt>3.6V. If you look at Silverfox's test data for an LG 18650 at 3A draw, the cells sag below 3.6V in about 8 min. So continuous run time performance at max output could be relatively short. On the other hand, intermittent use will probably be fine since the Li-ion cell voltage should rebound quickly. Also on the other hand, if you use a Samsung ICR18650, performance is much better than the LG 18650, and you could run in regulation for about 20 min. And if you look at the IMR18650s, you might go longer than 30 min before sagging below 3.6V. A final mitigating factor is that the output current doesn't fall off a cliff when the driver falls out of regulation. But you do get decreasing output current (not the expected 350mA per AMC7135). For example, at Vbatt=3.55V (0.05V above Vf), you might get an estimated 150mA per AMC7135, or a drive current of 400mA per R2. Output will still be around 300 lumens total from the 3 LEDs, so there is nothing to really cry about. But you aren't going to get 600 lumens.

IMO, I think it is better to drive the triple XP-E R2 star with 6xAMC7135 (2100mA total, or 700mA per R2 which is exactly the rated max). It gives you more battery flexibility with probably a 10% reduction in total lumens in regulation. With Vf=3.4V, now Vbatt>3.5V, which really extends the run time in regulation. I'd estimate about 30 min even for the LG cells, and probably close to 40 min for the IMRs.

Now, if the XP-E R2 stars can be sorted for low Vf, then that is a different matter.


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## JSO123 (Jun 11, 2009)

Is it safe to assume that this drop in will fit a Solarforce L2 ( with the 1650s ) ? I've ordered an L2 ( P60 clone) for only $17.00 including shipping. I think that the L2 with your drop in and and upgraded surefire tailcap will be a super combination at a cheapskate price. Please tell me if I'm wrong. This will be my first bright flashlight!

Thanks


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## supasizefries (Jun 11, 2009)

It will indeed fit.  It was addressed in his for sale thread.


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## JSO123 (Jun 12, 2009)

lAST DUMB QUESTION - For this AM:thinking:

Does anyone make a good quality multi level tail clicky (in gunmetal) that will fit the 6P/L2? I found a link below that shows how to convert a surefire tailcap into a 2 stage clicky. I guess thats the way to go...

http://candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=83844&highlight=McC2S


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## Justin Case (Jun 12, 2009)

There are no more McC2S switches in stock at The Shoppe (and the conversion isn't a 2-stage clicky, it's a 2-stage twisty). There are some McE2S switches left. The OpticsHQ/TLS multifunction (and reverse multifunction) tailcap also fits the 6P family. But it has a high parasitic current drain of 1mA, it isn't universally compatible with all LED drop-ins, and you can't buy it separately.


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## JSO123 (Jun 13, 2009)

Thanks! I wasn't paying attention:thinking:


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## AW (Jun 13, 2009)

I am working on a multi - mode PWM LED switch ( like this one ) that will work from 3 -30V for any CC regulated LED single output module or DD module. It can handle up to 20Amp if driven under 3.7V - in anticipation of the PhlatLight SST-90. 

If you are going to use the 7135 driver, you may want to remove the diode(s). The reverse polarity protection is going to add additional V drop which means you are basically running DD.


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## QtrHorse (Jun 13, 2009)

AW said:


> I am working on a multi - mode PWM LED switch ( like this one ) that will work from 3 -30V for any CC regulated LED single output module or DD module. It can handle up to 20Amp if driven under 3.7V - *in anticipation of the PhlatLight SST-90*.
> 
> If you are going to use the 7135 driver, you may want to remove the diode(s). The reverse polarity protection is going to add additional V drop which means you are basically running DD.


 

I must have missed the discussion about this LED if there was a thread about it on CPF. 

1000 lumens with 10 watts or 2250 lumens if driven at maximum current.


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## Justin Case (Jun 13, 2009)

AW said:


> If you are going to use the 7135 driver, you may want to remove the diode(s). The reverse polarity protection is going to add additional V drop which means you are basically running DD.



Removing the diodes matters only if you have a low Vf LED. With the diodes installed, the min input voltage to a 7135-based board has to be ~3.3V. If your Vf isn't lower than that, then removing the diodes won't make any difference. If Vf is lower than ~3.3V, then removing the diodes will improve the min input voltage to 2.7V (the forward voltage of a typical silicon diode is about 0.6V).


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## russthetoolman (Jun 13, 2009)

What is your meaning of "remove"? 
Is it to clip the diode leads and remove it physically, leaving a void in the circuit board? Or is it to attach a bypass wire around the diode, from the leads at each end, effectively removing it from the circuit?
Thanks in advance for an answer
Russ


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## Justin Case (Jun 13, 2009)

See the section titled "*How to build a high quality, low cost, regulated 3 Ampere driver for your SSC P7 Maglite"* at this link: https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/195358

Take out the diodes and wire in jumpers or solder bridges so that the 7135 ICs remain wired in parallel (Vdd connected in parallel).


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## ElectronGuru (Jun 13, 2009)

AW said:


> I am working on a multi - mode PWM LED switch ( like this one ) that will work from 3 -30V for any CC regulated LED single output module or DD module.



 Sweeet!

So if a single 18650 cuts out at 2.8 volts, what would happen running this switch when say the voltage goes below 3.0?


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## supasizefries (Jul 22, 2009)

Justin Case said:


> I'll give you the theory.
> 
> For me, I think it's a mistake to drive the triple XP-E R2 star with 8x7135. That forward current level implies a forward voltage of over 3.4V for the LEDs wired in parallel. The XP-E spec is Vf of 3.4V at If of 700mA. Now, the Vf could very well be lower than the spec, which would be very desirable. But if it isn't, then you have a possible problem. If we assume that the Vf at 933mA (2.8A/3) is 3.5V, then to run in regulation, you need Vbatt>Vf+0.12V (0.12V is the voltage drop due to the AMC7135 ICs), or Vbatt>3.6V. If you look at Silverfox's test data for an LG 18650 at 3A draw, the cells sag below 3.6V in about 8 min. So continuous run time performance at max output could be relatively short. On the other hand, intermittent use will probably be fine since the Li-ion cell voltage should rebound quickly. Also on the other hand, if you use a Samsung ICR18650, performance is much better than the LG 18650, and you could run in regulation for about 20 min. And if you look at the IMR18650s, you might go longer than 30 min before sagging below 3.6V. A final mitigating factor is that the output current doesn't fall off a cliff when the driver falls out of regulation. But you do get decreasing output current (not the expected 350mA per AMC7135). For example, at Vbatt=3.55V (0.05V above Vf), you might get an estimated 150mA per AMC7135, or a drive current of 400mA per R2. Output will still be around 300 lumens total from the 3 LEDs, so there is nothing to really cry about. But you aren't going to get 600 lumens.
> 
> ...



Hi JC, do you think IMR 18650's will sag less at 2.8-3 A, using 8x7135?


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## Justin Case (Jul 22, 2009)

In my post that you quoted, I wrote

"And if you look at the IMR18650s, you might go longer than 30 min before sagging below 3.6V." Compare this to the estimates I made for Samsung ICR18650 and LG18650 and you have your answer.


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## supasizefries (Jul 22, 2009)

Whoops, dunno how I missed that. :thinking: It looks like IMR's are in my future.


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## MrGman (Sep 1, 2009)

The unit that was sold to bigchelis has been tested at 560 out the front lumens at turn on and about 530 lumens after it warms up. There is a video here that compares it to 3 other lights including the Malkoff MD4 Wildcat and the Nailbender latest MC-E in a 2 C maglite using 2 c size lithium batteries. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-iovLqE3XtE

I took the voltage and amps readings from 3V up to 15V this morning and Justin Case has the entire spreadsheet to show the power versus Vin curve. I am guessing this is the place to put it.

Moddoo and Justin know what the actual driver specifics are based on this thread of course.


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## Justin Case (Sep 1, 2009)

Thanks to MrGman for his efforts in characterizing the moddoo triple XP-E R2/2xSOB1500. Here is his graph of Pin vs Vin:






IIRC, moddoo measured ~2.8A drive current. I don't know what Vf is at that drive current but let's guess 3.5V-3.7V. So LED power draw is perhaps around 9.8W to 10.4W. Driver power draw is roughly 11.3W to 12.1W. So driver efficiency could be around 81% to 92%. That seems consistent with a measured 87% for one of my SOB1000 drivers running a Seoul P4 U2xxxH bin LED.


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## Moddoo (Sep 2, 2009)

Thank you everyone for taking the time to test this and post the results.


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## Justin Case (Sep 2, 2009)

MrGman redid his Pin vs Vin measurements, and the 2xSOB1500 does even better than the first time. The differences are he used a more accurate DMM and chose the hookup wire leads more carefully to avoid high impedance and thus parasitic voltage drop.

The results:




Power in vs voltage in varies much less than before: from 11.13W to 11.32W between 4.7V to 11V.


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## MrGman (Sep 2, 2009)

thanks Justin for getting the charts posted. Its funny because I was hoping that with a careful retest that "hump" where it has peak current would flatten out but did not. But every little bit counts in the wiring when you have a 2.4 amp peak current. 

When I have more time I am going to retest the Malkoff MC-E and see if I can flatten out those curves with a more efficient set of connections as well.


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## Justin Case (Sep 3, 2009)

You are very welcome. Thanks for taking the time to make the measurements.


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