# The M66... aka 'poorman's M6'.



## andrewwynn (Dec 4, 2005)

Starting a clean thread in the Incan forum now that it's fully operational.

Ok.. now have some new comparison photos.. with a stippled reflector in the M66. 






M66.. the Mag66 mini.. battery state unimportant.. doesn't dim.





M6 by surefire..with half depleted batteries.​
We did a head-to-head runtime test but 1/2 way through the test the SF shut off.. we suspect from an overheating sensor in the MB20 battery pack.. pretty sensible. We will set up a re-match so that we can show the quicktime video of the side-by-side.

First impressions.. we were both impressed with the relative stability of brightness on the M6 considering no regulation it does a good job that's for sure... but as you can see by the pictures above.. 'real world' illumination.. the M66 is blowing away the M6.. thanks to the stippled reflector from Litho123.. SF knows what they are doing with those stippled reflectors! 

This reflector is the #7 heavy stipple.. i will get the #5 and #6 to find which one matches the M6 the closest for the repeat of the head-to-head. 

The external temp rose to about 140F on both lights during the test.. the M6 shut off after about ten minutes.. you can check out the quicktime movie by right clicking here and saving target to your hard drive.

The photo albums are HERE. 








M66 and M6.. exposure adjusted to simulate naked eye appearance. 








M66 and M6.. this time fixed exposure metered to the M66 to show the relative true brightness.​
The impressions of anybody that's seen the lights head-to-head including my 9 year old niece... hands down winner is the M66.. she says she "likes the blue and silver one better because it's brighter". At the time the batteries in the M6 were brand new.. less than 1 minute runtime. 

The two big pictures at the top are the true story tellers.. they are very representative of the real-world and the direct comparison between the M66 and the M6.. 

I have told people i don't recommend copy catting the M66.. but that was yesterday.. Today i've found another battery solution that looks like it will get the draw down to 2C.. which i can not recommend against.. the 14650 battery.. the 4/3AA size LiON.. it's 1000mAH vs 700.. so also of course means 30% longer runtime.. same exact size of host the '1D' FiveMega.. I think i might have just opened up a doorway of demand. 

My M66 cost me about $110-120 to make.. actually much of that was trade, so my particular one was maybe $40 out of pocket.. Now i'm 'cheating' because i built the hotdriver inside.. but those will become available soon, not 'before christmas' soon but most likely before shot show soon. 

Especially with the advent of the 14650 cells that put the pull on the batteries down to the normal 'max' envelope.. so maybe 25-28 minute runtime vs 17-18 with the 14500s being pushed 'to extreme'.. borderline crazy as i've been known to say.. This will be an exceptional mod, I hope FM is ready to make more of those 1D hosts!

(and i bet i just made a bunch of people's days who already own the handful that exist already).. 

Estimated Torch lumen is 550.. more than the M6 after 5-10 minutes.. less than the M6 with fresh batteries... aka "very very bright"

With the stipple reflector it is the most beautiful light i've seen come out of a hand-held device, not kidding... there is a very good reason SF uses the heavy 'dimple/stipple' on their reflectors.. and why N.T. calls them the 'super reflector'.. I used to think he was a little 'over the top' with that nomenclature.. 

Look at the difference in the beamshots before and after the stipple: 





M66 with LOP vs M6





M66 with Stipple#7 (max) vs M6.. different exposure.. 
sorry.. i'll re-do with the whole gamut of reflectors when i have them in one place at one time. ​
The point is.. with the LOP the M66 has 2x the lux as the M6, but a much tighter hot spot.. with the #7.. the lux is lower than the M6 but the softer rolloff and more Lumen once the lights have been run for 5 minutes or so really makes for a far better illumination of things as represented in the photos. 

All that said.. there are things superior about the SF.. they really did things right on several fronts:

1) waaaaayy more impact resistant.. the reflector being a 'sprung mass' connected to the bulb makes it act as a shock absorber.

2) the Non-switch though i have some problems with how difficult it is to operate.. it's a no-brainer impossible to break solution.. kudos. 

3) rugged.. did i mention rugged.. wowsa.. 

4) industrial design.. i have a couple things i wouldn't have done re: the ID but it is a work of art. 

All that said.. somebody wants a light with more useful light than an M6 for 1/4 to 1/3 the price ... it can and will be done.. not as rugged or perhaps the 'prestige' of the M6.. but i'll take the pepsi challenge with that amsterdam spit any day of the week. 

The evolving M66 was already my favorite light for the past couple weeks.. it just leapfrogged into almost impossible to beat status with the upgraded reflector. 

I like a little more spot, so i'm going to downshift to the 5 or 6 and compare.. I have two of these 1D hosts so there is a very good chance i'll leave an LOP or MOP in one for throw and the #7 for max flood in the other.. 

When i do the next 'face off' with the M6.. i will find the stippled reflector that most closely matches for the most close comparison. 

I highly doubt there is another light on the market or modded that more closely resembles the M6 in output and beam than the M66.. so the next test will be a very interesting thing... especially when i fine-tune the reflector to match. 

I've used 20 or more very VERY nice high-power lights and to-date there is not one that i've personally used that throws out a nicer beam for close-up work than the M66.. considering the other lights in the running that is a pretty powerful statement. 

I realize there will be skeptics out there.. put your money where your mouth is as the saying goes.. 'til you see a light with the carley stippled reflectors head-to-head with another one, and like-power etc.. you really have no basis of judgment. 

The pictures are quite representative of real life.. From purely an illumination perspective the M66 handily blows away the M6 in all ways i can think of.. i'm actually surprised myself... I can't wait 'til other people have their own M66 to compare and make their own judgment calls. 





Oh.. how about a picture.. side by side with the Surefire M6 on the left:
pretty amazing how well you can see the beam with the flash on!
Oh.. it now has a blue tailcap and i like that better.​
-awr


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## wquiles (Dec 4, 2005)

Very impressive Andrew :goodjob:

Will


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## DUQ (Dec 4, 2005)

Mmmm spray cheese


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## andrewwynn (Dec 4, 2005)

funny you mention that.. 'americans will buy anything you put in an aerosol can.. gravy in a can.. 'sprayvy''.. I noticed the can when i 'developed' the pictures and it made me want to go upstairs and make some crackers 

Oh.. update.. after about 3-5 hrs of use.. i finally exhausted the poor 1166 bulb in the M66.. that poor bulb i'm actually surprised it lasted through two charges.. it was my 'bench test' bulb and has seen 14+V more than once. 

I would not expect an 1166 bulb to run more than 5-8 hrs at 12.5V.. it re-rates to 8.5.. but i suspect that is 'constant on' and 'average'.. So.. definitely something to consider with the M66.. it will cost like $2/hr to operate the bulb.. you will want to have spares.. i'm cryin' cause my favorite light is sitting idle.. my bulbs won't come in 'til sometime this week. 

Once i have spares i'll crank up the voltage just a little more.. if it only makes the difference between 3hr and 5 hr bulb life.. that's still 7 to 10 charge cycles and the extra 50L will definitely make it output more initial light than the M6. I will also test my other one with a lower setting to see how much the color temp drops, etc.

I have another 1166 bulb in the house but it's potted :-( no can use in M66.

So.. guess i have to use the M6 for now 

-awr

ps.. as always.. i made a web-forward for this thread: M66.rouse.com will take you right to this thread if you want to check back easily... you can also see all my other similar threads here: http://cpf.rouse.com


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## CLHC (Dec 5, 2005)

Well I Must Say. . .I'm Really Liking This M66.Mini—Very Impressive!


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## andrewwynn (Dec 5, 2005)

I wonder if FM is planning another run of the body.. it's funny 'cause i got two in a trade and didn't know at the time if i'd ever find a matching solution of lamp and cells.. I did find the 1323 which is like 400BL.. and that is actually a really nice light for the 'low power' version.. but manoman does the M66 shine.. i feel like a hand is cut off with it missing.. so i took the stippled reflector from my M66 and put it on my 2D host with the 1111.. which is no slouch either.. 850/550L and has the same look to the beam (color, brightness) as the M66.. it's just not regulated and it's bigger.. of course that means a much meatier powerplant.. 50 minutes runtime... talk about bang for buck.. trouble is no regulator.. so won't shut off and no constant brightness.. though.. LiONs do hold some voltage ok. 

-awr


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## Schuey2002 (Dec 5, 2005)

One thing is for certain. I now need one of those stippled reflectors for my one and only [email protected] That beam is very impressive.


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## Kevin Tan (Dec 5, 2005)

Wud the 14650 fit the 2D with a custom holder? 

How about modding the fm700l to hold 8x 14500?


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## cue003 (Dec 5, 2005)

Andrew.. you are at it again.


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## andrewwynn (Dec 5, 2005)

I just hope greg ordered enough to keep up with demand.

-awr


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## NikolaTesla (Dec 5, 2005)

Andrew had to arm wrestle me to get that #7 away but I am going to be taking apart a lot of my Mag collection for further mods (Regulators). Besides I REALLY wanted all to see what they do against the M6 flagship SureFire incan. I only have a M4 myself which is not quite the one to beat. I will give AWR the #5 and #6 so he can run them against the M6. Ain't it ashame to have actually waste all them 123's for the test but I tell myself its for Science (Those were my batteries) I have gross or so left- Don't much need them any more except for the E2D and M4. That and I really can't see tossing $30 down the drain if I blow a bulb- A WA1166 is better and cheaper. Owe I was present clicking the camera during those tests and I can tell you for sure the M6 does NOT shine further than Maglite with a stippled reflector. No one likes to see a champ dethroned but I am afraid its happened. The Regulated 1D Mag1166 is a CLEAR winner. You can quote me on that if you want.


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## CLHC (Dec 5, 2005)

Are these M66.Minis going to be available for CPF to purchase as a turn-key product? Or is this just an informational purposes only for the DIYs?


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## NikolaTesla (Dec 5, 2005)

FiveMega was selling them to use with 4 puny 1.5 volt AA cells. Andrew put in the Li-Ions and Regulator. Add a WA1166 and it ROARS. Me thinks this combination will be popular. If FM gets enought requests he will build them. The regulated KIU Mag switch TK and kit is just a matter of time. That and the Stippled reflectors are on the way. We have some further testing to do then create circuit board version- Its very time consuming to assemble dead bug hand wired unit (but it indeed works fine)(even on a 100 watt 9 amp light). So its very do-able soon.


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## CLHC (Dec 5, 2005)

Appreciate the feed back NT! Thanks! Will be keeping a lookout for these HiPoM66.Minis. . .


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## andrewwynn (Dec 13, 2005)

waiting for replacement bulbs for the next showdown.. i got the right reflector to best match the M6, and within 1 hr of putting in the reflector.. blew the lamp! 

I have the hotdriver bumped up to the 'next level' with soft start that is working just wonderfully! 

More to come.. 

-awr


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## wquiles (Dec 13, 2005)

I just ordered some N-FET's to use with a simple R/C network to start playing with the soft start "concept" on my bench. I even borrowed a storage scope from work 

Will


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## andrewwynn (Dec 17, 2005)

It's a no-brainer to make it work.. put the Nfet below the light.. and just play with the resistor and cap on the gate of the FET.. here is an excellent resource for calculating the RC time constant: RC time constant calculator

here is the ckt i would start with:





R3 lets you adjust the startup time constant and with a 1Mohm resistance you an get into over a second easily.. the tricky thing is there is a relatively large delay from where the light starts turning on from when the switch is closed, till the gate threshold is hit, so some tweaking could be in order to jump-start the initial voltage by putting the C1/R4 bridge on top of another resistor so it's 'base' is higher say 1.5-2V depending on the FET's threshold voltage.. that way you could go hog-wild on the value for R3 and realllly stretch out the startup ramp but not introduce a long delay before it starts lighting.

R4 might not be needed.. it's to pull down the gate when the switch is opened.. there is a chance that the gate would pull enough current from the C1, but i doubt it.. 4.7µF is a lot of charge at say 8V or so (the ratio of R3/R4 times Vbat).. 

in this ckt.. the Vgate will start at zero and ramp up to Vbat x R4/(R4+R3).. using the time constant of C1 and R3.. say that R3 is set to full range 1M to make it easy, and let's use 2V as the gate threshold and 3V as the full on.

I will assume i'm making a starter for mag85.. so Vbat = 10.8

Vgate final will be 10.8 x (5/6) = 9V.. 

from Time zero when switch is flipped.. it will take 1.17sec to reach Vgate = 2.0V and start turning on.. and 1.90 sec before it is full on.. 0.73 sec ramp but with a 1.17 sec delay before it starts!.. (of course you don't need anywhere near that kind of delay before starting, i used an extended start to make the point).

once i got that ckt working i would quickly make this one:






This is much more refined.. at Time zero.. R5 sets up a minimum voltage at the base of C1..you can tweak that to be JUST BELOW the gate threshold.. so that basically almost instantaneously the FET starts to turn on... than with R3 you can change the rate of ramping on to your hearts content. 

The ckt doesn't need R4 because C1 has a path through R3/R5 to discharge with a reasonable time constant that is much less than R4 (a major problem with the ckt1 is that it takes longer to turn off than turn on)... even this ckt2 would have that problem.. the recycle time might be too slow that you can't for example 'sos' with the light.. 'mark 3' of the hotdriver had that problem.. 'mark 4' is a little faster and no longer a problem, but might be too much startup current again.

now since C1 starts at 2V.. the light instantly turns on when the button is pressed.. and with the RC time constant of 1Mohm and 4.7µF.. you have 456mS to reach 1V more than 2V based on 10.8V total.. it's a little faster because it's going to go up higher (full vBat vs the ratio).. which is nice.. higher gate means lower on resistance! 

unfortunately.. C1 drains through 1.8Mohm... and will have 8.8V on it to drain down to about 6.8 before the FET shuts off.. 6.8/8.8= 77% .. going back to the RC calculator.. 

ouch.. 12 seconds! oops looks like it might need some refining! I was looking into finding a way to put a pch FET into the equation.. that has the gate tied with a pull-down resistor and to the switch... and that FET would be set up with a very small resistor (like 10K) tied to to the gate of the drive FET.. than when you click off the switch.. the Pch turns on and bleeds C1 nearly instantaneously.. 

I think i'll draw a ckt for that design when i have some more time... i was trying to figure out a clever way to use just a diode that would only be forward biased after the cap was charged *and* the switch was opened.. maybe you can find a way. 

let us know if you find out a different way.. that second FET (pch) could be a really inky dinky model.. i could also likely be wired with an nch fet as well, 'til i played with it i wouldn't know what i'd do. 

So.. seems like the trickiest part is actually how to shut it off ! kinda humorous to me. 

-awr


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## andrewwynn (Dec 17, 2005)

AWR does a 'happy dance!'

not only did my replacement 1166 lamps come in.. i upgraded the driver in M66 to the mark-4 model with soft start (tweaked to maybe 1/3 sec. startup).. I also got my 14650 cells and now only am pushing the cells to barely over 2C (vs 2.6C).. which means i should be able to get on the order of 26minutes runtime! (i will do a shootout with the M6x6 soon.. the M6x6 will have a longer runtime i'm quite sure). 

However.. there are some new beamshots of significance: 

Starting with this one:






That's a beamshot auto-exposure of the M66 .. has the #7 stipple reflector and an unfrosted 1166 lamp set to 12.5V. 






That's a beamshot with the same exact exposure of the M6 with the 7.2V 6x17500 LiON battery pack... it's much whiter and brighter than the last shots i did.. but the pack in fairness is maybe 1/3 depleted.. i will be doing a head-to-head sometime with the M6x6 v the M66 'mark 2'.. The M6 will outlast it for certain.. it's a 21.6WH pack.. where the M66 though upgraded went from 10 to 14.4WH pack. 

The 1166 is ludicrously efficient at turning watts into lumen.. so though the M6 and M66 are very close in actual lumen output, the estimated runtimes are:

27 minutes for the M66 mk2
35 minutes for the M6x6

(using 93% of rated cell capacity as my estimate). 

considering the substantially greater battery pack (21.6 v 14.4) it's a little surprising that the runtime wouldn't be longer on the M6x6. 

The next 'battle' will be an interesting one.. unregulated but hugely larger battery pack in the M6... 2.2x the energy... (compared to stock)... and the improved M66.. with about a 50% gain in battery.. even though the M6x6 will surely last longer, it will be interesting to compare them head to head. 

yikes i almost forgot.. 

here are the rest of the beamshots!

-awr


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## andrewwynn (Dec 17, 2005)

Oh.. i almost forgot to mention.. the M85 is the 2D mag85.. uses 9R123s. runtime about 28 minutes.. pretty marvy, though the R123s could be happier.. i'm only getting like 75% of capacity.... nonetheless.. it's longer runtime than my 3D 9xCPB1650 light so i'm not going to complain.. charges nice and fast too since i charge in parallel and can crank 2A into the pack. 

-awr


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## diggdug13 (Dec 17, 2005)

:wow:


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## wquiles (Dec 17, 2005)

Andrew,

The circuit on top is "exactly" the one I will be building, although my initial goals were for a 100ms turn ON time, and perhaps a 10ms turn OFF time. And yes, I also suspected that the OFF time could be the problem. Thanks for verifying this fact for me 

Thanks so much for taking the time to draw the circuits and explaining the various possibilities and challenges with each one - your help is MUCH appretiated :bow:

Will




andrewwynn said:


> It's a no-brainer to make it work.. put the Nfet below the light.. and just play with the resistor and cap on the gate of the FET.. here is an excellent resource for calculating the RC time constant: RC time constant calculator
> 
> here is the ckt i would start with:
> 
> ...


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## wquiles (Dec 17, 2005)

Andrew, 

Most impressive :wow:

My projects/goals concentrate about doing a battery pack for my M6, but I don't care for the 500-600 lumen range - mostly in the 200-300 lumen range. Something using the MN20, the MN60, or the MN61 using a rechargable pack with at least a one hour runtime, is what I am after. Soft start is a must (which is why I will be building and testing one this coming week - vacation starts!), but since I am hoping to use Li-Ion cells I am not yet requiring regulation to start with. An LVR and/or your LDO would be the next stage - I like taking baby steps 

Now, since I happen to own some 17500 cells, I have two of these 17500 cells stack on top of each other and next to the M6's battery holder (and seeing how the two 17500's are longer!), I am wondering how to you cram this 6x17500 pack inside the M6? Is some of the pack simply inside the inner portion of the tailcap? Where phisically have you found space to "hide" the soft start and/or LDO circuitry in this pack?






Will



andrewwynn said:


> AWR does a 'happy dance!'
> 
> not only did my replacement 1166 lamps come in.. i upgraded the driver in M66 to the mark-4 model with soft start (tweaked to maybe 1/3 sec. startup).. I also got my 14650 cells and now only am pushing the cells to barely over 2C (vs 2.6C).. which means i should be able to get on the order of 26minutes runtime! (i will do a shootout with the M6x6 soon.. the M6x6 will have a longer runtime i'm quite sure).
> 
> ...


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## wquiles (Dec 17, 2005)

Andrew,

Here is my current idea for an "affordable" Li-Ion rechargable pack for my M6, this one using an MN60 or MN61 bulb:





I am using a 6xAA series adapter from Jonathan (modamag), which of course would have to use shortened rods, but if you look at the photo, there should be "plenty" of space to at least put a soft start circuit in there, maybe even an LDO 

What I am trying here is nothing new. Based on this older post from kiu and this discussion from js, it looks like I should not even need to bother with the soft-start. However, since it is this high inrrush of current that shortens bulb life, why not do it anyway 

I am trying to come up with something "relatively" safe so I want to use the protected 17670 cells. Given the soft start, I am really hopping that the initial current draw will not trigger the protection circuitry from the cells, specially since I will be driving something like the MN60 (approx 1.5A draw from 4xCR123 cells) or MN61 bulbs (approx 2.5A draw from 4xCR123 cells).

What do you think? Would/should it work?

Will


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## andrewwynn (Dec 17, 2005)

you can only get about 2.4A out of a typical protected 17670 before the prot. ckt kicks in.. but the 1.5A should work welll depending on the voltage. 

nice that it would fit in the stock size and the holder arrangment is a perfect solution for solving two problems: 1) where to fit the regulator and 2) how to get the positive down to the pos spring.. the MM holders are perfect for this because you have pos and neg on bothsides.. you have to be very careful with how you solve the problem of the charged rods that go through the pos. side.. MM only protects them with epoxy or such.. that will not be good enough in an M6 mod.. you'd want a layer of PCB or to cut the rods short any only solder on the inside or something.

The pack works out to 17.28WH which is quite impressive actually.. the pack i made is capable of being 23.8, but i have to modify the tailcap.. the difference of course is that it works with the MN21... the regulated one will work with the 20 or 21. 

The problem i see with the MN60/61.. is simlar to the problem with the 20/21 combo.. 

SF designs the setup to work with the voltage sag under load (which is tremendous in the 123 primaries).. a '3V' battery will only be like 2.25 under the loads that the MN21 presents.. but only load it to the MN20 and they will hold 2.4.. The 60/61 will have a very simlar situation so most likely your solution will only work with one of the lamps. 

Soft start saves bulbs no question whatsover.. with $30 lamps that should be a pretty high priority IMHO, probably ahead of regulation.. you can always (like i did in the M6x6).. just use a resistor to hold back some voltage if you need it. (need POWER resistors!)

The design you propose has a lot of promise.. i personally would use raw cells so i could run the 2.5A draw at 1.56C.. fine tune the voltage with a couple/three current sensing high power (3W) resistors in that space.. you'll have a killer light.. 23W or so.. and for possibly 35 minutes! Sounds like a total gimme to me!

(and no tailcap modification like mine!).

Too bad the 17670's can't handle 3.35A to run the 1185 lamp! (although we do it sometimes.. not recommended). 

-awr


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## andrewwynn (Dec 17, 2005)

oops i missed the whole thing about the 17500s.. 

to fit 17500s you need to cut 1/4 inch off the aluminum cup inside the tailcap.. i used a dremel and icecubes.. took about 8 minutes. to use the old MB20 you'd have to use a taller spring to get power to the pack and i'd recommend using it upside down (neg in) to avoid shorting issues. 

if/when i make a production run of the M6x6.. i would have a replacement alum. cup made that the user would swap with their stock model.. takes 20 seconds and just the right know-how.

I figured.. there is not much more than a chance of an icecube in hell that this light would EVER hvae another primary cell in it in it's life so i just modified the tailcap cup i had on hand.. not sure exactly what the benefit of a wasted 1/4" of space inside the tailcap is on the M6 design, but the modification made no change to the function whatsoever.. it just moves the spring farther toward the button by removing the center post and most of the outer edge (there is still enough left to put on the no-short o-ring and have the LOTC function proprely). 

-awr

ps.. oh.. where is the LDO going? well.. the top and bottom of my battery holder.. ala modamag.. are PCB. mine just won't be bare, they'll have chips!


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## Lunarmodule (Dec 17, 2005)

There is a reversible modification to add clearance to the tailcap to accomidate the extra length of the 17500 six pack but it does fit and can be reverted back to stock. Andrew says he's even got a hack to be able to use the stock MB20 holder in a pinch if you dont have access to a recharging station or an emergency. If you look at the photos of the prototype pack you can see a resistor integrated into the pack coming off the upper (+) terminal PCB in teh form of a loop. There's room to integrate some more semiconductor goodness there, but here I am egoistically speaking on his behalf about his creation. Its only because I am totally obsessed with it and ask him 50 million questions a day about what he's doing. One of his greatest characteristics is the way he shares information like posting the schematic for his LDO circuit. Supremely talented and imaginative as well. He pays me to write things to fatten up his ego for him! Actually, I just suck up in hopes of getting a Hotdriver somehow


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## NikolaTesla (Dec 17, 2005)

Hey LM we need to try the next Mark4 regulator in a 100 watt light (Hint Hint)


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## andrewwynn (Dec 17, 2005)

actually it's the negative side where that resistor is.. i could put chips there if i had to (inside by the batteries) but they should fit around where the spring/s are on the tailcap.. the 'production' model would likely have 3 springs so i can more easily fit the circuit in.. the jury hasn't even been selected for that one. 

I used the tester M6 a loooot in the past few days and i never ran it out.. ran my M66 out though and My M85.. so that says something (well i do use the M66 the most).. i have ONE of my packs upgraded to the 1AH model, very interesting hack that's for sure.. my tailcap spring is now 3 curls and aproximately 1/8th inch tall.. and it goes into the tailcap about 3/8inch thanks to the FM machining job. 

-awr

-awr


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## wquiles (Dec 17, 2005)

Andrew,

Circuit works great, although I made some minor mods to it. Since I don't want to hijack your post with the soft start circuit early results, I created a new post about.

Thanks :bow:

Will


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## andrewwynn (Dec 18, 2005)

I'm a little surpised by the relative lack of response to this micro wonder.. I'm going to put out an official feeler to make a bunch of these, but it would be nice to get a sense if more than 1 or 4 people might be interested even before i go there. 

With the bigger cells (14650).. the light should have about 25 mintues of regulated non-dimming light.. i will do a runtime test soon. It's definitely my favorite light right now, with a charging jack in the back so i don't even need to take the cells out to charge.. it's quite a gem... and by joe. check out those beamshots!

http://rouse.com/M66 

-awr


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## redbird (Dec 18, 2005)

If you have only 4 you can now make it 5...I am in


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## Lightwave (Dec 18, 2005)

I'm interested too. But I've gotten a bit lost - are we talking 3 cells, 4/3AA size? And what is runtime? Also, do those cells come in larger sizes with greater capacity?


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## jroot (Dec 18, 2005)

If you are talking about the M6 battery pack I'm in too!

Jim


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## Makarov (Dec 18, 2005)

I'm interested in the consept, and have been collecting various stuff to make a hotwire mod. I've already got a reflector and a KIU kit(4th gen), so I'm wondering if you will make a DIU kit of some sort or are you only thinking of making turnkeys?


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## NikolaTesla (Dec 18, 2005)

Nobody gets it how uterly cool this light is. Here is the story ,folks---

A guy on CPF, inventor, creator, all around cool guy, Five Mega invents the 
1D 4AA light, a MagLite modified to 1D size, sells it with 4AA power light bulb. Vey Wimpy.
Just around 250-300- lumen max with fresh cells. I saw it and like a dummy and passed it by. I had too many Maglites, was working on the Mag100R and Mag35 so I figured oh well. Like every one else did. Then in the midst of our tinkering, AndrewWynn cooks up 2 brilliant ideas.
1) Put 14500 Li-Ion cells in the light. Presto near 16 volts availible on full charge.
2) Invent adjustable regulator. We do a LOT of testing,perfecting on that. Been thru several upgrades of the circuitry.
This STRIKING invention eliminates the need to worry about flashing bulbs and keeps CONSTANT brightness over the entire battery life. Several CPF long time builders moan about lost watts. Tough. It works, beyond our wildest dreams. Batteries are rechargeable so who cares if a watt is lost????
3)Install a WA1166 light bulb.
4) Litho123 invents stippled Super-Reflector (some what by accident. I get the first test reflectors to evaluate- see my posts). One gets put in Mag66 (The little FM light Andrew upgraded, topic of this post)
5) We frost a bunch of WA bulbs with HydroFlouric acid. I seen SureFires bulbs were frosted and I have quite a few frosty SureFire bulbs so I decide they may have something there. Its not fun to do it and dangerous to. Strong chemicals.....)
! Presto- SureFire beam in this light- Better than M6 . Just using their tricks. (ALL my MagLite mods sport these goodys now)

Then AWR gets a M6 SureFire in to upgrade (Not part of this subject) Good test subject. Very well known. HOLA 500 Lumen bulb is our test comparison subject which was quite clear buy beamshots and eyes that the Little '66 was brighter and better. (You can quote me on that).

We run thru a 1 on 1 test with the M66 WA1166 powered modified light and the SureFire falls flat on the ground. We used brand new out of the 
box SF123 cell and the M6 dies in 10 minites to hot or what I DON"T CARE. A $392 top of the line light is NOT SUPPOSED TO CRAP out!!!!!. $30 bulb too!!!. I WAS NOT IMPRESSED. The M66 regulated WA1166/Five Mega/AWR regulated light was BRIGHTER, more consistant output and DID NOT use up 6 primary batteries. Fully rechargeable. The WA bulb in this creation is 1/4 the cost and brighter.

I run ALL my lights full on for entire run to see how long it works and if it will melt down. (So far the X990 is KING)

The end result is a WAY better light, cheaper, regulated, brighter. Not quite a store bought model YET but could be.

Times change. Lights get better. So if you want a better, cheaper light, It exists. Yes for now its a lot of parts from different creators/Vendors but would you want to own a M6 Slayer? We would like to know. If not , so what. It will just go down in the annuls of obscure cool inventions. If so, Email [email protected] and post on this thread. Five Mega is a reasonable fellow of the light and could be convinced to to create more but we need interest to be sure. It can be made as a TK. AWR's posts about the M66 are out there as well as beam shot posts..

Mind you folks I am some what of a bystander on this project but am very impressed. I have my own ax to grind with the Mag100R project but realized having such a small same size light brighter and cheaper than a M6 SureFire in my pocket is not a bad thing. What do you think???? Hey it has adjustable focus too.


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## HighLight (Dec 18, 2005)

I'm interested. If this is going to be a porrman's M6 than I'm your poorman!


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## andrewwynn (Dec 18, 2005)

Maybe i should call it the 'middle-class' M6 :-D (the prototype maybe cost $130-150 including all the various parts).. i'm hoping if i get it to a turnkey that i can sell them for at about 1/2 the price of the M6, just starting to explore cost-saving options.. the light doesn't have the shock isolation of the M6, but the beam is much whiter and brighter. I just upgraded the battery pack to use 14650s (i think i mentioned that).. but it's a huge deal because it means the cells are only pushed to 2C not 2.6C which i would not recommend anybody copy.

with the 14500 cells.. the rated cap of the batteries estimates 20 min. runtime.. i've measured 17-18 minutes.. (85% capacity). With the 14650 cells.. i'm betting i'll get closer to 90-95% of capacity and that means.. 27 minutes of runtime.. i can live with that! 

This project is not an upgrade or even related to the M6.. that's just the comparison yardstick i'm using... however i'm working on a different project that is for the M6... a very simple solution for a rechargeable battery pack.. and a regulator as well. 

-awr


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## savumaki (Dec 19, 2005)

Old saying------"in for a dime, in for a dollar"

:thinking: if I could just figure out how to put wings on it, I could fly it.

Karl


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## Luna (Dec 19, 2005)

NT and AWR, Talking about cost of the M6, I'm with you on that. When complex items like DVD players and computers cost less than a passive lamp burner like the M6, you really have to question things a bit. Exploitation of municipalities and the feds, maybe since that is really who the light is targeted toward.

Unfortunately you are gonna have a hard time convincing people that the magic is only due to the reflector. Even the nonfrosted bulbs look perfect with the right reflector (seems the frosting is used more as a cooling technique rather than a smoothing though it might be there to remove the hotspot where the envelope is closed together)

If you want basic shock dampening, just put an undersized swith in place with o-ring channels. The friction fit of the orings would be the major support and the use of a plastic locating bolt(even better find a bolt with rubber end to act as a setscrew). 


Well good work at spreading the word! Hurry up and get the hysteresis of the circuit figured out.

PS rather than putting it on a KIU socket how about packaging up in the tailcap like the SL20 dimmer.


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## NewBie (Dec 19, 2005)

Whats the point on this one, soft-start, and unregulated to save less than 10 dollars in parts?

Why didn't you use your new regulator on this one Andrew? Was it size?

For about 50 cents, it looks possible to add an undervoltage cut-out, if you want to run un-protected cells. Though it doesn't protect individual cells, just the shut off voltage for the whole pack, which may not be that great of an idea anyhow, unless you wanted to go protected, and add this for a double protection layer.


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## Lurveleven (Dec 19, 2005)

andrewwynn said:


> I have told people i don't recommend copy catting the M66.. but that was yesterday.. Today i've found another battery solution that looks like it will get the draw down to 2C.. which i can not recommend against.. the 14650 battery..



I don't feel safe using unprotected cells in a series setup, unprotected cells mean I cannot lend my lights away. When I lend lights away that use protected cells then they often come back with the protection kicked in.
Does your LDO have under-voltage shut-off? And if it does, I still see a problem if one cell is/becomes weaker.

Sigbjoern


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## Luna (Dec 19, 2005)

Sigbjoern, it would be trivial for him to add a protection IC but I agree that individual cell monitoring is pivotal. Not from a safety POV (since its internals should stop venting if they are new stock) but so that one bad cell doesn't kill the rest of the cells in the pack.


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## TheJumman (Dec 19, 2005)

I won't miss this... Count me in!


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## andrewwynn (Dec 19, 2005)

newbie, i think you missed something.. the M66 does use the full boat regulator.. i think you got confused because of the talk about the soft-start that was talked about for the M6 that Will is working on.. he started a different thread to talk about that. With 14.4Vbat and 12.5Vlamp.. kinda a requirement. 

Based on using 3 or 4 or 3x3 series LiON cells (and 7 in my v28 tools)... and doing this for years in my laptops, never having any problem other than one cell dies the pack will no longer be useful.. i don't really have a problem with series cells in LiON.. The problem comes if you over discharge and try to recharge.. i have to still check on the charging solution a 'what if' when one cell eventually dies.. but twice i've done a 'fairly bad thing' with my series charging and nothing crazy bad happened i just wrecked the cells.. and one time that was putting one cell of three in backwards. I doubt somebody's going to top that level of cell abuse. 

The driver shuts off at about 2.9V/cell which is lower than i usually shut off a LiON but it's plenty high enough to ensure the cells aren't over discharged.. which is the other way i've clobbered LiON cells in the past.. over discharge followed by attempting to charge.. that time one of the cells leaked and wrecked my holder.. no 'venting with flame' or anything overly ecxiting, but it did melt plastic. 

In the case of a cell becoming weak. i'm sure that just like in a laptop battery when one become weak and you get 10 minutes runtime vs 120.. you'll know when a cell is shot.. and since the swing from full charge to dead is less than 1 cell.. if a single cell was at zero volts, the light won't even turn on, confidence is pretty high things will be ok. When you get only 5 minutes runtime from a 'full charge' one day you'll know something is afoul.. more than likely it would be more like 10 seconds of runtime should one cell die and 'dead short'... 

The way the driver works.. there probably needs to be over 12V resting even to try turning on.. and under load if it can't hold 11.5V it will immediately shut off and stay off 'til the switch is turned off and on.

I would never use LiON raw cells in a situation where there is not a low voltage cutout, but i do use them in series with an overall protection.. and since as mentioned.. the protection kicks in where if a single cell is kaput that it won't even turn on, that's farily decent protection... actually it's the charging that is a bigger issue.. if a cell dies than putting the pack on the charger is likely to wreck the other cells.. still looking into solving that issue. 

-awr

ps.. somebody emailed me probably from this thread, and the email went to the 'junk' bin and i just caught it for a milisecond as it got erased.. re-send please.. better to use my flashlight email, not the one N.T. mentioned above: flashlight (a) rouse.com is my preferred email for flashlight stuff.


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## LuxLuthor (Apr 27, 2007)

Lots of little goodies in this old thread.


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## BombTec (Apr 30, 2007)

I've been trying to build one for a little while now, but can't, for the life of me, find any damn battery adapters...


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