# SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT (Part 1)



## DM51

*SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*

At long last, I have managed to get around to doing a series of shots of some of the various possible M6 rechargeable options. I have been planning to do this for a while, but something always seemed to get in the way.

Just getting all the gear together took some time.















*Bulb options*

The bulbs/LAs can be split into 2 groups: those that work with two Li-Ion cells in series (2s) and those that work with three Li-Ion cells in series (3s).

2s Li-Ions:
· MN15 
· MN16 
· MN20 
· MN21 
· Osram 64250 
· WA 1111 
· Philips 5761 

3s Li-Ions:
· MN61 
· HO-M6R 
· WA 1185 

The MNxx bulbs:












The 64250, 1111, 1185 and 5761 bulbs require a Fivemega MN bi-pin socket for the M6.
3 bi-pin bulbs in FM holders are shown here, together with the Lumens Factory HO-M6R:







Below is a closer look at the bi-pin bulbs. The physical size of the glass envelope is important, as it determines whether or not the bulbs will actually fit through the reflector hole in the KT4 turbohead. The WA bulbs are small and compact, whereas the Philips and Osram bulbs are much larger. My 5761 did fit OK, but the Osram 64250 *did not fit*, so it could not be tested (I tried 3 of them, but they were all the same). With 5761 bulbs, there have been reports of variations in bulb sizes between one batch and another, so some may fit and some may not. The same may be true for 64250s.






Those filaments are interesting too. If you compare the WA1111 and WA1185, you can immediately tell which is the higher-voltage 1185 – the filament coil is longer. The 64250 and 1111 filaments are almost exactly the same size and configuration, indicating very similar performance. The 5761 filament is a larger-diameter coil of thicker-gauge wire, and you can tell just by looking at it that it is going to absorb a lot more current than the others.


*Battery options*

The stock battery configuration for the M6 is 3s2p (3 series, 2 parallel) CR123A primary cells in the MB20 holder.
Rechargeable battery options available are as follows:

2s Li-Ion cell packs:
· 2s 18650 (mdocod’s 2x18650 holder)
· 2s2p 14670 (Fivemega black (7.4V) 4x14670 holder + plastic insulator cap needed)
· 2s ‘C’ Li-Ions (with Fivemega 2C extender)

2s2p 14670 and 2s 18650 should in theory perform identically, having the same capacity, although the 2s 18650 will be a cheaper and better option. 2s ‘C’ gives increased capacity. However there is the disadvantage of the 2C extender lengthening the light by ~17 mm. The 5761 (and the MN21 Li-Ion option) should be used only with 2x ‘C’, as the current draw at ~5A is too much for 2s 18650 except in short bursts. 

However, the increased discharge loads possible with Lithium Manganese (Emoli) cells, available in 18650 size, present a workable solution for M6 owners who want to use the 5761 and are not worried about short run-times.

3s Li-Ion cell packs: 
· 3s2p RCR123 (in the SF stock MB20 holder)
· 3s 17670 (Fivemega 3x17670 holder)

The 3s 17670 set-up will out-perform the 3s2p RCR123s. 

Here are the battery packs:







Please note in the above pic: there is a home-made plastic cap (made by me) that fits over the +ve end of the 4x14670 holder. This is needed to prevent the +ve terminal shorting on the M6 body. It can be seen that the 3x17670 holder already has an insulating disc fitted.

The Fivemega 2C extender comes with a plastic sleeve to take the 2x ‘C’ Li-Ion cells, pictured above. Here is a photo of an M6 body fitted with the Fivemega 2C extender, next to a stock M6 body:








One problem with comparison shots is trying to make sure the lights are all pointing at exactly the same spot in each successive photo. I decided I needed a solid cradle, similar in concept to a shooter’s bench-rest, to hold the lights. 

Mrs DM51 very kindly made an involuntary donation of a redundant chopping board for this purpose. When I realised the tremendous scientific (non-culinary) potential of this chopping board, I pointed out to her at some length that it had lethally unhygienic cracks in it, suggesting that from now on she should instead use one of her other boards, as they looked very much less conducive to salmonella, botulism, or other alarming and gruesome gastro-intestinal afflictions. Anyway, she has not said anything so far about the board going missing, and with a bit of luck she won’t notice. 

I glued a 45° wedge to it, and a right-angle join from a box to that, to act as a channel to lay the lights in. This is the result:







Anchored firmly in place, it ensures each light points at the same spot.


*Location*

Adamlau did an excellent series of shots in an urban setting, so I chose a rural one.








The target here is the large* integrating tree* on the right in the main photo. As marked on the photo, it is 135 yards (400 feet) from the “firing point”. That is a good distance away, and it takes a powerful light to throw that far to any useful effect.








*BEAMSHOTS*

First, here are pics of the MNxx bulbs that were tested. These are small versions of the photos, for ease of comparison side by side. Larger copies (600 x 460 pixels) can be found in post #2 – they may be useful for making “gif” rotating shots.

On the left in each case the bulb is running on primaries, and on the right you see the same bulb running on Li-Ions.

MN15









MN20









MN16









MN61









MN21










In each case above, the primaries were 3s2p in the stock MB20 holder, with the exception of the MN61, which was running on 4s in a 2x18650-size Leef body. The rechargeable configurations were as shown.

Note that the MN16 seems brighter than the MN61 – this should not be the case. It is mostly because the MN16 is designed to run of 3 primaries, not 3s2p. With 2 banks of CR123As, there is far less voltage sag, so the MN16 is being overdriven. I also have to confess that the 4 cells used for the shot of the MN61 may not have been quite as fresh as the ones in the M6 bodies. That MN61 on primaries is the 1 shot in this series which is possibly suspect. All I can say is that it looked pretty bright; but the MN16 was brighter. See how the MN61 performed on Li-Ions, though!

Now it gets more interesting, as we add in some other bulbs. Time to settle a few scores!
Here are a few pairs that make interesting comparisons: 

HO-M6R vs. MN20 (primaries) 










HO-M6R vs. MN16 (2x 18650) 










HO-M6R vs. MN21 (primaries) 










MN21 (primaries) vs. WA 1111










MN21 (primaries) vs. MN61 (3x Li-Ions)










MN21 (2x ‘C’ Li-Ions) vs. 5761 (2x ‘C’ Li-Ions)










WA 1111 vs. WA 1185










5761 vs. WA 1185










Before finishing with the beamshots, I would stress again that the target is a very large tree, about 80 feet high, and it is a fair distance away – 135 yards, or 400 feet! All the photos above are with the camera on ~2x zoom. Just to illustrate this, here is what the WA 1185 beam actually looked like without the zoom:








*Comments*

You may already have formed your own conclusions from the photos above. Below are some of my thoughts. 

The first thing that must be realised is that the high-output (HOLA) Surefire MN-series bulbs used with Li-Ion batteries will suffer a reduced life. 

As you can see from the comparison shots above of the MN16, MN61 and MN21, they are much brighter when running on Li-Ions than they are on primaries. 

This is nice, but unfortunately it comes at a cost, which is a shorter bulb life. The greater the increase in brightness, the more drastic the effect on bulb life. The MN15 and MN20 will probably do OK as they aren’t driven so hard, but those 3 HOLAs are not going to last very long at all. The cost of running your M6R on Li-Ions with Surefire HOLAs at around $30 a pop may end up being as expensive as feeding it with primaries. Sorry guys, but there’s no way round that one. 

The lifetime of bi-pin bulbs is better documented. When over-driven, as here, these bulbs will have a lifespan in the region of ~10 hours, but they are a lot cheaper - $9 for a WA1111, and only $5 for a WA1185. And a mere $3 for a 64250 - if you can find one that fits!

Star ratings given below for practicality are awarded for various reasons, the principal one being anticipated bulb life. 


*Bulb performance and ratings*

The *MN15* confirmed its value and utility. It draws an economical 1.15 amps. I have been using it quite a lot, but until now I had not done a comparison at distance, and it is at distance that quality shows up. You only have to look at the photos above to see how well it performed. As can be seen here, and contrary to reports made elsewhere, it works well on 2x Li-Ions. Either way, with primaries or rechargeables, the MN15 is a very good option for anyone requiring a working light with long run-time. It only gets 1 star here for output, but that tree is a long way off, and the standard in this shootout is very high indeed. There can be no doubt that this is an extremely useful bulb.
Output………….. ð
Run-time……….. ððððð
Practicality……. ðððð
Overall…………... 


The *MN20* is a fine all-round bulb, drawing 2.45 amps. It is a good general purpose bulb for the M6 for both primaries and Li-Ions. With this bulb, you have enough light for almost all uses.
Output………….. ðð
Run-time…….…. ðððð
Practicality……. ððð
Overall…………... 


The *MN16* gives a startlingly better performance than the MN20, beating it on output. It draws 2.6 amps, so it can be expected to be brighter, and it is. However, it is clearly over-driven on 2x Li-Ions, and its life will suffer severely.
Output………….. ððð
Run-time……….. ðððð
Practicality……. ðð
Overall…………... 


The *MN21* is an amazing bulb, but unless you have an endless supply of CR123A primaries, it really isn’t very practical. It draws 4.9 amps. People probably fire it up from time to time to amaze their friends, but even for that purpose there are more impressive options. Using it with the FM extension and 2x ‘C’ Li-Ions was spectacular. However this is over-driving it hard, and bulb life is likely to be very short. From cold, I found it required double or triple-clicking to start it. For all these reasons I do not consider it a practical option. 
Output………….. ððððð
Run-time……….. ðð
Practicality……. ð
Overall…………... :green:


The *Philips* *5761*, like the MN21, is a high-current bulb, drawing 5.4 amps. It needs the FM 2C extension, as it should not be used with smaller Li-Ion cells than ‘C’ size. There are reports of some batches of 5761s being too large to fit through the KT4 reflector hole; certainly, it is a close fit. The filament sits up higher than the WA lamps, so ~1mm of shims are required on the base of the bi-pin holder. As if all that wasn’t enough, it needs several clicks to start. Unless you intend to use LiMn (Emoli) cells in a 2x18650 holder and you don’t mind extremely short run-times, it is not worth considering this bulb for the M6 (in my opinion, anyway).
Output………….. ððððð
Run-time……….. ðð
Practicality……. ð
Overall…………... :sick2:


The *MN61* is dazzling. On 3x Li-Ions it outperforms the MN21 on primaries. However, it is seriously over-driven in this configuration (3 amps measured) and there have been several reports of it instaflashing. Even where this does not happen, bulb life is going to be short and consequently expensive. Sadly, it does not seem to be a very realistic or reliable option. On output it is really 4½ stars, above 4 but not up to 5.
Output………….. ððððð
Run-time……….. ððð
Practicality……. ð
Overall…………... 


The *WA 1111* is a *great* bulb. With 2x Li-Ions I measured it drawing 3.6 amps. Its output is very similar to the MN21 on primaries, as I have shown in another thread, and it uses less (and free) power. It is a very good option indeed, with useful run-time on 2x18650. It is no surprise how good this is. It is a very fine combination for the M6. 
Output………….. ðððð
Run-time….……. ðððð
Practicality……. ðððð
Overall…………... :devil:


Some people are lucky enough to have an *Osram 64250* that will fit into a KT4; however mine did not. I would expect it to perform almost identically to the WA 1111 (cheaper, too – it is $3 instead of $9). If you are really skilled at grinding glass down with a dremel, you might be able to shave the sides of these bulbs down just enough to fit, and then you will be in business!


The *Lumens Factory* *HO-M6R* was the best surprise of this shootout. It draws 2.1 amps from 3x Li-Ions – that is Lumens Factory’s own figure, and it proved accurate on measurement. This means it can be used safely with 3s2p RCR123 Li-Ions in the stock MB20 holder; however it will perform better with 3x17670s. The HO-M6R has always been described as being “somewhere between the MN20 and MN21 in output”. Well, we can now officially scratch that description as inadequate. It *stomped* the MN20, and it gave the MN21 a very good run for its money. It was a far closer thing than I thought it would be. It has a tighter beam, and I think it actually out-throws the MN21. Throw is a feature of Lumens Factory bulbs, and this is a *superb* thrower. I knew it was good, but it took this comparison to show just how good it really is. 
Output………….. ððð
Run-time……….. ðððð
Practicality……. ððððð
Overall…………... 


Finally, as expected, and as can be seen from the photos, the *WA 1185* with 3x17670 was the winner in the power contest. Drawing 3.3 amps, it matches the 5761 for output, and is a much more practical alternative if sheer power is what you want.
Output………….. ððððð
Run-time……….. ðð
Practicality……. ðððð
Overall…………... :devil:


I hope this thread is some help to those deciding what to run in their own M6.


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## DM51

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*

Larger-size copies of the photos in post #1

Rotating "gif" image, courtesy of JetskiMark:







Still photos:


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## ttran97

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*

 :twothumbs

Well done! I can't even imagine how long it took to do all this. Make it a sticky! You have the power...


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## lightsandknives

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*



Nicely done! I've been wanting an M6 for some time but didn't want to burn through that many primaries. This is certainly making me rethink the M6!

Where's the best place to get the WA 1111 bulb??


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## brighterisbetter

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*

:wow: :goodjob::kewlpics: This will be a big help for not only myself but for many others who bug the old-school members for free advice. Just saved yourself a whole bunch of PM replies by creating this DM51. Excellent work as always. STICKY!!!!!

EDIT- BTW, that's quite a collection you've got there too!!! :thumbsup:


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## CLHC

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*

Awesome! Thanks for sharing!


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## Patriot

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*

:wow:

That must have taken you forever to put together! 

Totally amazing thread for all the M6 options. I'm still flabbergasted.


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## cqbdude

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*

You Sir...Is my hero...

Thank you for the awesome comparison...:twothumbs

I already have the 3x17670 / MN61 combo..now I cant wait to get the 1185's I ordered...


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## Team Member

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*

I´m stunned..

That first pic just made my day. A wild guess, a Peli 1500 case...?

And the rest then...omg...

I don´t have enough words so I´m just using these silly smileys.

:twothumbs:rock::bow::goodjob:


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## gallagho

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*

Awsome post! Thanks!

Look what ya made me do, put my name down for a FiveMega holder!


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## mwaldron

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*

Awesome Job DM51! You have consolidated a lot of useful information into 1 great and wonderfully illustrated post!

The 2x18650 + MN15 and 3x17670's + WA1185 seems to be the tools I'll have in my box depending on the situation.

I may need more M6 to play with, 1 doesn't seem to be enough... :naughty:


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## greenLED

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*

Dooood!! Excellent work.
(I see I'm not the only Lock'nLock fan around, BTW.)


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## Nos

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*

what a great post, details, overview..... WOW!


:twothumbs:twothumbs:twothumbs


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## EV_007

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*

Excellent overview of the awesome light.

Having the guilt free comparison is very useful.


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## generic808

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*

Great review! This is just the thing I was looking for! Thank you very much for your time and effort in compiling this info. I was thinking I might go with the 3x17670 HO-M6R set-up, but now it is certain I will be going this route. Well, that's if we get the 50 pre-orders 

If this review wasn't enough for every M6 owner to get on FM's list, I don't know what is.

BTW what would your guesstimate on runtime be with the 3x17670 HO-M6R?


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## Size15's

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*

Well done! :twothumbs:goodjob:


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## JetskiMark

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*

Epic thread and effort. Thank you for your time.



DM51 said:


> ....Mrs DM51 very kindly made an involuntary donation of a redundant chopping board for this purpose. When I realised the tremendous scientific (non-culinary) potential of this chopping board, I pointed out to her at some length that it had lethally unhygienic cracks in it, suggesting that from now on she should instead use one of her other boards, as they looked very much less conducive to salmonella, botulism, or other alarming and gruesome gastro-intestinal afflictions. Anyway, she has not said anything so far about the board going missing, and with a bit of luck she won’t notice.....



That was funny.



DM51 said:


> ....The target here is the large* integrating tree* on the right in the main photo...



Was that IT recently calibrated?



DM51 said:


> I hope this thread is some help to those deciding what to run in their own M6.



That was a major understatement.


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## Carpenter

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*

:bow: DM51 :bow:


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## BSBG

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*

Great job! Must bookmark this thread now .

I was bored at work the other day and made a spreadsheet of all the options with current draw, run time and output on various cells and developed a ranking system combining RT and output. My conclusion was identical to yours - the WA111 or 64250 (mine fit) may be the best all around option for an M6. And I need another M6 to keep everything set up and ready to go.

But I still love the 1185 in any host


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## JetskiMark

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*

I made an animated gif. The images are in the same order as they were posted. I made each frame 2.5 seconds which seems to be what most viewers prefer.

Edit: Removed image to reduce page load time since it is now copied in the second post.


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## Patriot

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*

Now that I've gotten past the shock & awe of DM51's thread, I was able to slow down and start absorbing some of the information. I was satisfied to see how well the HO-M6R and 1185 performed during these tests because I've always gravitated to these two set-ups. 2 of my M6's are permanently set-up in this configuration. It's been my wish for some time now that FM would make another run of HA extensions to be used in conjunction with 2 X AW C cells. This is because I'm a big WA1111 fan and would prefer running it on 2 x C's vs 2 x 18650s. Given that we may never see the FM extensions again, I'm eagerly awaiting mdocod's battery holder so that I can easily run 1111's in one of my M6's.

It's my opinion that the LF EO-M6R is the star of this review. Although great on 6 x RCR123's, it really stands out on 3 x 17670's. I recently sacrificed my permanent 1185 M6, and dropped its FM holder in my EO-M6R light, until I can get another from FM. It's been one of my most used configurations to date and I'm glad to see that DM51 had a similar appreciation for it.


Thanks a bunch David for this awesome thread! :thanks:

P.S. Hopefully this will be a sticky or at least a reference thread?


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## DM51

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*

Thank you all for your kind comments. It was an interesting project and I had been meaning to do it for quite a while. 
________

Mark, thanks very much for the gif! I have uploaded it and copied it into post #2, at the top of the post.
________




lightsandknives said:


> Where's the best place to get the WA 1111 bulb??


CPFer Litho123 has a sales thread in the MarketPlace selling popular bi-pin bulb sizes.
________




Team Member said:


> That first pic just made my day. A wild guess, a Peli 1500 case...?


Close! It's a 1520.
________




generic808 said:


> what would your guesstimate on runtime be with the 3x17670 HO-M6R?


In theory, ~43 minutes; but to be safe, no more than 30-35 mins. Li-Ions should never be drained to empty (if you do happen to drain them empty by accident, recharge them as soon as possible afterwards.)
________

BSBG: very interesting about our different experiences with variations in bulb sizes. I think it may have been Petrev who ground an oversized bulb down with a dremel to make it fit. Not sure about that.
________

Paul: Like everyone else, I had just accepted the line that the HO-M6R was “somewhere between the MN20 and MN21 in output.” That is no longer an adequate description. You are right that it was the star surprise of the review - it amazed me that it showed up so strongly against such stiff competition. It will be also be very reliable compared to the others, as bulb life will be longer.


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## FrogmanM

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*

Most Excellent! Jeeze I'd better start looking for a used M6 for HO-M6R duty! Sticky material imo

Mayo:kewlpics::goodjob:


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## Daniel_sk

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*

The HO-M6R definitely is a suprise. No bi-pin adapter needed, long bulb life and not that expensive. The bulb might be also more reliable and shock resistant than the WA1111/WA1185 + bi-pin setup. 
I recently tried the FM bi-pin adapter, but the two springs seem to be too long - there is too much tension and the shock-absorbing neoprene inside the M6 head is fully compressed...

Thank you David for this excellent review.


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## kurni

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*

sticky


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## aussiebob

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*

Great thread, thanks for this!

I think im gunna splash out for a M6 now.


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## alantch

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*

Awesome review. Bookmarked.


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## monkeyboy

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*

Thanks for this DM51  This is all the information I've always wanted to know about incan M6 mods. Hopefully this will get some people interested in the latest run of Fivemega 3 x 17670 holders.


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## :)>

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*

Fantastic! 

Nicely done DM51. That couldn't have been easy but it was super well done.


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## sledhead

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*

Just fantastic DM51!! Thanks for taking the time. I've been running the MN61 with no problems, but after seeing this I think I'll try the HO-M6R next. Seems like it may throw farther than the MN61?

BOOKMARKED!


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## jayflash

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*

DM51, be sure to show Mrs. 51 all of these accolades if she happens to complain about your use of free time. You, sir, have furthered our knowledge in a most significant and practical way. I can't thank you enough...WOW!

May I assume these larger bi-pin lamps don't suffer the tendency to fall out of their bases like the small (TL-3, Scorpion, etc.) types sometimes do when dropped?


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## Daniel_sk

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*

The fivemega bi-pin adapters from the last run have a small screw that holds the bulb in place. The bulb wouldn't fall out of the holder even without that screw, it's a tight fit.


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## CM

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*

I can't get over that picture of the case with all those M6 parts in it. You could probably trade the whole thing in for a small car :nana:

Anyway, I had an M6 and sold it and this thread makes me regret the decision.


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## Patriot

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*

Oops, never mind...:huh: I'm getting my bulbs mixed up again..


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## BlueBeam22

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*

DM51,

I absolutely love your shootout!! You did an amazing job, I really enjoyed looking at all of the beamshots, and good job with the ratings. This thread makes me wish I had an M6!
The Philips 5761 was my favorite.

You have my vote for this thread to be a sticky.:thumbsup:


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## Patriot

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*

Bluebeam, what did you like best about the 5761? Did you see the MN21 on 2 x C's just to the left of that picture? :naughty:


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## BlueBeam22

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*



Patriot36 said:


> Bluebeam, what did you like best about the 5761? Did you see the MN21 on 2 x C's just to the left of that picture? :naughty:


 
I like the 5761 for its very smooth and even illumination pattern, but now I see that the MN21 does smoke it! I also really like the beam pattern and intensity WA 1111.


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## donn_

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*

Wow! Incredible study. :bow::bow:

Does this qualify as an


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## K-T

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*

Very well done. This is an excellent and valuable review. Thanks!


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## LED61

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*

DM, I am speechless!!! I thought you were nuts with the A2's but never imagined it was a greater fever with the M6's!!!!

VERY NICE WORK!!


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## jumpstat

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*

DM51,

Thank you Sir for your indepth review on this matter. Before this it was difficult to get the full knowledge on what are on offer for the SF M6. Now its very clear which path to go for a rechargeable solution.

I have invested with the necessary stuff to run a bi pin WA01185 which IMO every M6 owners should have. 

I am currently using the LF HO-M6R 6xR123a and I can report that this is a capable setup. The beam profile is THROW! smaller hotspot than MN21 (primaries) but intense! The spill is even and useable also. It runs cooler than MN21 where extended runs can be employed. Construction of the LA is excellent.

To those on the fence about getting this, don't. Get an M6 !


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## LuxLuthor

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*

DM, seeing that collection and detailed labels & displays suddenly made me feel better about my own hoarding neurosis. Knowing the expense of those parts, that is quite a remarkable (& beautiful) collection.

I love the closeup comparison and comments of the bipin bulbs. Makes a very clear case. I could gush on and on over the quality of this shootout...but *I will just give you the very best compliment I can think of*: *Over the last 2-3 years, I have never seen the value of getting an M-6, given its expense and never using the M4 I got years ago. Your shootout now has me thinking I should probably buy an M-6. Notice I just bought requisite parts from FM's two threads.*​Outstanding job, DM51. :thumbsup:

Edit: What is the run time of that HO-M6R for the $30 price?


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## chimneycheck

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*

Very Nice DM51. And nice friggin collection. I have a mind to call you a showoff

Lux,

The HO-M6R runtime on 6 RCR123's is supposed to be 35 minutes. Based on my useage in the field I would say that is fairly accurate (maybe a bit less) with good batteries.

The 3 x 17670's should run longer but I have not noticed to be any brigher.

I have to disagree with the seemingly agreed upon opinion that this HO-M6R is a contender to the M21. In the field the M21 blows it away when I am looking in attics, crawl spaces and down chimneys.

The throw of the LF bulb is a good deal better though but output is singificantly less in actual application, based on my use.

There is no questioning the fact that the 1185 is significantly brighter than the MN21 but I certainly prefer the beam shape of the MN21. My 1185's have an ovalish beam when used with my M6 which irritates (yes, I know - nitpicky) me when using it (hence my recent "sale" of my M6 that I got cold feet on).

When I finally get the parts to use FM's 6 by 17670 holder and my 14.4 volt pack in the M6 maybe I'll try to figure out how to post beamshots of various bulbs as bright as or brighter than the 1185 (any less light and I don't see the point). Depends on time. You all must not have kids. Can't see where ya get the time to do these elaborte beam shots and then post them

Wow! That is dedication:thumbsup:

John


----------



## Icebreak

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*

Tremendous work there, DM51. This is so much better than trying to cypher my own foggy imaginations derived from many descriptions. I like that it's all done in a really nice pastoral setting.

*I*ntegrating *T*ree. Love that terminology. Can I use it?


- Jeff


----------



## Monocrom

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*



Wow! ..... That was fantastic!

Thank You.


----------



## sb_pete

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*



CM said:


> I can't get over that picture of the case with all those M6 parts in it. You could probably trade the whole thing in for a small car :nana:


LOL, that's exactly what I was thinking.

AWESOME REVIEW DM!:thumbsup: You have my vote for a sticky. This is very useful comparative info about options for a light that many people have and MANY MANY people drool over and dream of having. Well done, my friend.
-Pete


----------



## DM51

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*

Many thanks indeed, to all of you, for your extremely kind words. My aim in this exercise was to answer a few commonly-occurring questions by way of illustrations and examples, and help people in their decisions about which M6R options might suit them. OK, it was fun doing it, too!

Lux: your complimentary words are very kind and generous indeed. Coming from you, the incan specialist _par excellence_ who pioneered classics such as theVaporizer, Hyperblaster, Deathblaster, and other mega-output creations, they are especially nice to receive. 

Your question about the run-time of the HO-M6R was answered by chimneycheck, but I am wondering if maybe you meant _lifetime_. If so, Lumens Factory rate the HO-M6R at 30 hours, which means overall running cost is actually not too bad when compared to some of the ~10 hour hotwire bulbs, and certainly a lot better than over-driven SF bulbs.

Chimneycheck: you raise an interesting point about beam shape. The thing about this shootout was that all the reflectors were identical, so how could the Lumens Factory bulb have a narrower beam and better throw than the Surefire MNxx bulbs?

The answer may lie in the fact that the SF MNxx bulbs all have pointed and frosted tips, whereas the Lumens Factory HO-M6R is rounded and unfrosted. The MNxx frosted section captures a lot of the bulb’s output and becomes extremely bright, and light from it is gathered by the reflector and emitted in a slightly more “fuzzy” (smoother overall) pattern, at the expense of throw.

With the HO-M6R, all the light is emiitted from one small point, the filament, with no frosted part getting in the way, and this light is gathered by the reflector efficiently, projecting it further overall. I think it is probably as simple as that.

Icebreak: LOL! Yes, of course you may use the expression Integrating Tree. A while ago c0t0d0s0 told us about his Integrating Bathroom, which was extremely funny, and other people have used Integrating milk cartons and other objects. There’s a thread running somewhere about a Glo-Toob on an Integrating Dog-collar, lol.


----------



## generic808

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*

DM, thanks to you, I just spent a bunch on FM gear (battery holder / Bi-pin socket), 1185 bulbs, and more AW cells :shrug:

Thanks a lot!  <---- insert sarcasm there :laughing:

:nana:


----------



## LuxLuthor

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*

I did mean bulb life, DM, and that last linked chart answers that. Thanks!

In the decreasing unlikelihood  of finally getting an M6, I wonder where one would find the best M6 purchasing deal that could be had at the present time. 

_(I just had a flashback of my grammar school teacher, Mrs. Kring, telling me to now diagram that last sentence!)_


----------



## CLHC

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*

OpticsHQ


----------



## jumpstat

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*



CLHC said:


> OpticsHQ


Is there a special CPF discount?


----------



## DM51

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*



CLHC said:


> OpticsHQ


Agreed.


----------



## DM51

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*



jumpstat said:


> Is there a special CPF discount?


PM sent.


----------



## Icebreak

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*

DM51 -

I was looking at your histogram. I was trying to figure out the color setting. It says sRGB. Is that some kind of raw setting? I have a fairly new Canon IS 850 point and shoot and am realizing that it's smartness kind of turns out to be a dumbness. Anyway, I was trying to figure out how to replicate the same settings. I'm using Daylight but can't seem to find an sRGB mode.

Your 12 meg Canon G9 looks like a fine camera.

TIA

- Jeff


----------



## DM51

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*

It's amazing how much info is stored with a digital pic. A lot of it is way over my head, I'm afraid, but the photo was not shot in RAW, it was jpg (then psd when I added the text overlay, then saved finally again as jpg.) 

I'm sorry - I don't know what sRGB is. There are lots of highly skilled photographers here, and I'm sure one of them will know.

I selected manual, dialled in the settings, which (IIRC) were ISO 200, 13 sec at f3.5. Flash was obviously forced off. I don't think I actually set anything else, but I think white balance was auto.

There are so many possible settings on that camera you would need a PhD to use them all, lol. It's a very nice camera - it was a used one, previously owned by someone who had "traded up" to a EOSx (whatever) model.


----------



## Icebreak

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*

Thanks, David. Sounds like about as neutral as possible. (I don't know much about photography). Really nice shots.

You know, I thought I had got a drop or two of raspberry preserves from Sunday breakfast biscuits on my keyboard because it's all tacky feeling. My browser seemed to keep navigating to the same page. On closer inspection I found that the keyboard is clean. The problem, it seems, is this thread. It's very sticky.


----------



## LumenMan

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*

Thank you for this very informative thread ! I'm a huge M6 fan (I have 3... soon to be 4 !) :naughty::thumbsup:


----------



## djans1397

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*

AWESOME review! Thanks!:thumbsup: Great to know that the HO-M6R that I'm building with my Leef 3x18650 and M4 head will be all that I expected!

Dan


----------



## signal 13

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*



generic808 said:


> DM, thanks to you, I just spent a bunch on FM gear (battery holder / Bi-pin socket), 1185 bulbs, and more AW cells :shrug:
> 
> Thanks a lot!  <---- insert sarcasm there :laughing:
> 
> :nana:


 
Where can I pick up FM gear? Namely the 3 x 17670 holder?

You guys have me wanting to get the M6 now!

I thought I was complete with an M3, M3T, and M4...


----------



## brunt_sp

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*



signal 13 said:


> Where can I pick up FM gear? Namely the 3 x 17670 holder?


Here you go.
https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/203705


----------



## DM51

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*

Signal_13, I've put links in post #1 to these items. Where you see the item underlined in blue, all you have to do is click on that and it will take you straight to the sale thread where you can get the item concerned.

Let me know if the links aren't working.


----------



## monkeyboy

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*

Questions for DM51 (or anyone else who knows)

Have you had any problems with the 1185 instaflashing with 3 x 17670 or 3 x C li-ions? 

Do you have to make sure that the batteries don't charge above a certain level? Do they need to be rested at all?

Have you tried unprotected cells? I read that unprotected cells have slightly less voltage drop.

Thanks.


----------



## DM51

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*

I have experienced no problems like that at all. I have also used 1185s with fully charged 'C' Li-Ions, and no flashing. I have always used protected cells.


----------



## BSBG

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*

Same experience here - no problem with fully charged AW protected 17670s.


----------



## JNewell

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*



BSBG said:


> Same experience here - no problem with fully charged AW protected 17670s.


 
Same here with same parts. Beam is a little elliptical, though.


----------



## LuxLuthor

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*

Got one coming from EBay in box.


----------



## Patriot

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*



monkeyboy said:


> Questions for DM51 (or anyone else who knows)
> 
> Have you had any problems with the 1185 instaflashing with 3 x 17670 or 3 x C li-ions?
> 
> Do you have to make sure that the batteries don't charge above a certain level? Do they need to be rested at all?
> 
> Have you tried unprotected cells? I read that unprotected cells have slightly less voltage drop.
> 
> Thanks.




Mine instaflash if charged to 4.2V each whether they are 17670's or 3 C's. If I charge them to 4.1V they work fine. I'm not sure why my resistance would be that lower than what the other members are experiencing, unless it's because I clean and Progold the contacts???


----------



## jumpstat

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*



Patriot36 said:


> Mine instaflash if charged to 4.2V each whether they are 17670's or 3 C's. If I charge them to 4.1V they work fine. I'm not sure why my resistance would be that lower than what the other members are experiencing, unless it's because I clean and Progold the contacts???


Are you using the FM holder in M6 body? I am a bit worried also as my batts are new (AW's P17670) and they are at 4.21v even after rested for an hour. I am only waiting for my 1185 bulbs to arrive to test this setup.

BTW. With HO-M6R and 3x17670 there is better output and beam pattern, much rounder/brighter than 6xR123a.....and much better throw than MN21/primary.


----------



## Patriot

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*



jumpstat said:


> Are you using the FM holder in M6 body? I am a bit worried also as my batts are new (AW's P17670) and they are at 4.21v even after rested for an hour. I am only waiting for my 1185 bulbs to arrive to test this setup.



Yes, I'm using the FM holder in the M6 body. If your cells are 4.21V after resting an hour, then your charger is over charging your cells some. 




> BTW. With HO-M6R and 3x17670 there is better output and beam pattern, much rounder/brighter than 6xR123a.....and much better throw than MN21/primary.


I agree that the beam pattern and throw are better, but I'd still have to give overall output to the MN21 on fresh primaries. The secret though is that primaries aren't fresh anymore after a few minutes running with the MN21. With the HO-M6R and RCR123's top off charges keep the beam at top performance. Of course it's even better with the 3 x 17670's because of less resistance, more capacity and more convenience.


----------



## mwaldron

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*

I got my 1185 bulbs last night, so I got to play around a bit. I'm using a FM 3x17670. I have a custom charger, I set it to charge the "pack" to 12.3V (4.1V/cell) and I was a bit tense when I powered it up hot off the charger, but no insta flash. 

It's my understanding charging to 4.1V gives 90% of the capacity with a considerably longer service life. I can live with 160mA less capacity for a longer service life and a significantly reduced chance at .


----------



## brighterisbetter

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*

I like many of us am waiting for the 3x17670 holder to start production, so can't test anything yet. I've currently got the Pila IBC and found  this thread  which finds the voltage of a fully charged cell after a button reset is 4.17v consistently. Anyone's take on instaflashing at that voltage? I would imagine that +/-.03v would be negligible, however before joining this forum I thought that the difference between 4.1v and 4.2v was negligible too. It seems that each host's natural resistance has variances from one production run to the next.

EDIT - And here's a weird supposition, but what if after a few 's one were to somehow increase the resistance among spring contacts or whatever in an effort to salvage bulb life, would that lead to the much talked about double-click using protected cells?


----------



## jumpstat

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*



mwaldron said:


> I got my 1185 bulbs last night, so I got to play around a bit. I'm using a FM 3x17670. I have a custom charger, I set it to charge the "pack" to 12.3V (4.1V/cell) and I was a bit tense when I powered it up hot off the charger, but no insta flash.
> 
> It's my understanding charging to 4.1V gives 90% of the capacity with a considerably longer service life. I can live with 160mA less capacity for a longer service life and a significantly reduced chance at .


:twothumbs Good to hear it working for you! :wave: Was it worth it for all the trouble to get the holder, bulbs etc etc ?


----------



## jumpstat

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*



brighterisbetter said:


> I like many of us am waiting for the 3x17670 holder to start production, so can't test anything yet. I've currently got the Pila IBC and found  this thread  which finds the voltage of a fully charged cell after a button reset is 4.17v consistently. Anyone's take on instaflashing at that voltage? I would imagine that +/-.03v would be negligible, however before joining this forum I thought that the difference between 4.1v and 4.2v was negligible too. It seems that each host's natural resistance has variances from one production run to the next.
> 
> EDIT - And here's a weird supposition, but what if after a few 's one were to somehow increase the resistance among spring contacts or whatever in an effort to salvage bulb life, would that lead to the much talked about double-click using protected cells?


I was lucky to get a holder from a cpfer which came in the mail yesterday. Just left are the bulbs from Litho to test. I do intend to try em at 4.2v or whatever charge my WF139 puts out. See how it goes. :thumbsup:


----------



## fivemega

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*

*Does anybody have beam shot comparison of WA1331 (WA1318) with WA1111, HO-M6R or any other similar wattage bulb?*


----------



## starburst

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*

I call Mine The M85 :laughing:

I have to double tap mine to get the 1185 going does that mean
that it need's cleaning?

My MaHa C-777+ charges the FiveMega 17670 carrier to 12.3 volts
start's chirping like a bird and then stop's the charge. 18650's and
AW C cell's all stop at 4.1 volt's. No problem's instaflashing 1185.

HO-M6R comes on first time, every time! The 1185 from what I 
understand pull's the 3x 17670's pretty hard! :sweat: How many charge 
cycles do You all think We will get say if we only do a 20 to 25 
minute burn every time?

If your still waiting for FM part's your gonna Love it!! :rock:

Jeff,


----------



## LuxLuthor

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*

OK solely because of this thread, I have my very first M6 (crenelated in box) coming from EBay seller, two of the HO-M6R from Lighthound, two of the FM bipin holders, and his 3x17670 holder, even though I already have a bunch from other lights. I never thought I would bother with this light. I'll probably make a balance tap charging setup, and am even talking to AWR about his long lost project.


----------



## Monocrom

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*



LuxLuthor said:


> .... and am even talking to AWR about his long lost project.


 
Well.... That's one way of putting it.

Okay, back on topic. I've heard at least one CPFer mention that AW RCR123 cells won't fit in the M6 battery-holder. If anyone is using the LF HO-M6R with six RCR123 cells in their M6, which brand of rechargeables are you using?


----------



## alantch

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*

My AW RCR123s fit nicely into the MB20 holder. They are of the more recent type with the black top.


----------



## jumpstat

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*



alantch said:


> My AW RCR123s fit nicely into the MB20 holder. They are of the more recent type with the black top.


Same here, black tops, no probs. :thumbsup:


----------



## DM51

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*

mwaldron, your theory of keeping the pack voltage <12.3V is OK, and charging the cells to 90% in this way will indeed give longer cycle life. However I repeat I have had no instaflashing problems with a 1185 even with fully charged ‘C’ Li-Ions.

brighterisbetter, the same comment applies. And you are correct that if you increase the total resistance of the light, this will reduce the actual voltage to the bulb. However it will also result in a decrease in performance, and in the absence of reports of instaflashing, it is probably unnecessary.

Fivemega, I haven’t tried a WA1331. I don’t have one. I assume from your question that it would fit? I would expect its output to be similar to the HO-M6R, but I’m just guessing. 

Starburst, the 1185 should not need a double-tap. I’m not sure what your problem may be there – maybe the over-current protection on one of the cells is a little touchy. Run-time with 1185 and 3x17670s should be limited to ~20 mins for longest cell cycle life, and best to limit it to short-ish bursts, not constant on for the whole 20 mins. The HO-M6R run-time will be longer, up to ~40 mins (but best to limit it to ~30). No problems with constant on with the HO-M6R.

Monocrom… AW RCR123s *do* fit in a MB20. It’s a tight fit, but they do go in. Here is a pic from post #1:








Incidentally, some people above have been talking about resting Li-Ion cells before use. This is not really a useful practice with Li-Ions – they don’t cool off like NiMh cells. Older Li-Ion cells may not hold a full charge, but that is a different matter.


----------



## monkeyboy

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*



starburst said:


> I have to double tap mine to get the 1185 going does that mean
> that it need's cleaning?



Are you using the new model of AW's 17670? This is the only protected 17670 that will power the 1185 with a single click. (the old AW's need more than one click).

It's always disconcerting when some people experience instaflash and others don't when seemingly using the exact same setup. I wonder if this has to do with manufacturing tolerances in the bulbs themselves? Maybe it depends on the batch?


----------



## mwaldron

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*



jumpstat said:


> :twothumbs Good to hear it working for you! :wave: Was it worth it for all the trouble to get the holder, bulbs etc etc ?



The holder, definitely 100% worth it. Otherwise would I have bought 2 more for lights I don't have [yet]? :devil:. Once you have that you have so many options open up and all guilt free. This is actually the first light I have that can take rechargeable cells, what a way to start!

I'm not so sure on the bi-pin holder. I don't regret buying it. I've wanted a Mag85 for a while but I decided the M6 was the best way to go about getting it. The 1185 is really impressive, but (hopefully I avoid the




saying this) there is a law of diminishing returns at play. Yes, the 1185 is clearly superior, but the MN61 is very impressive as well. I don't have a LF bulb, but based on the pics I've seen it's quite impressive as well. 

Long-term economey is where the bi-pin holder really shines. With free lumens, you're going to be using bright bulbs or you wouldn't be here! For slightly more than the cost of 1 MN-61 you get the ability to use WA1185's forever. The WA1185 at $5/each is much more attractive than blowing $30ea on MN-61's or LF bulbs. 



fivemega said:


> *Does anybody have beam shot comparison of WA1331 (WA1318) with WA1111, HO-M6R or any other similar wattage bulb?*



I purchased some 1331's from Litho but my only high wattage bulbs are hte MN61 nad WA1185. I don't have a HO-M6R, etc.


----------



## Monocrom

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*



DM51 said:


> Monocrom… AW RCR123s *do* fit in a MB20. It’s a tight fit, but they do go in. Here is a pic from post #1:


 
In my defense, I found this thread right after work; and was exhausted. That's my excuse, and I'm sticking to it. 

Much thanks to you, as well as to alantch and jumpstat for posting. :twothumbs


----------



## Outdoors Fanatic

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*

Outstanding job DM51! I'm speechless...

Thanks for sharing.


----------



## JNewell

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*



> Starburst, the 1185 should not need a double-tap. I’m not sure what your problem may be there – maybe the over-current protection on one of the cells is a little touchy.


 
FWIW, I have the same results with my M6/1185+FM Bi-Pin/3x17670AW+FM holder.


----------



## DM51

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*



JNewell said:


> FWIW, I have the same results with my M6/1185+FM Bi-Pin/3x17670AW+FM holder.


I think monkeyboy has put his finger on the reason:



monkeyboy said:


> Are you using the new model of AW's 17670? This is the only protected 17670 that will power the 1185 with a single click. (the old AW's need more than one click).


 My AW 17670s are all button-top, the newer version, so I can't test what happens with old ones.


----------



## monkeyboy

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*

The newer AW cells that can handle the 1185 with single click have "+ power" written on the label whereas the older ones don't. This applies to the newer 18500, 17670, 18650 and all of the C size.

You can see this in the picture on post #80 on the right most battery holder.

(BTW, the old 17670s have button tops too so you can only tell by the sticker)


----------



## starburst

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*

My cell's are the new + power one's, I'm wondering if the 1185 lamp 
could just be from a really robust lot? The battery carrier could have
some extra res. I guess or maybe even the light itself could as well.

It don't really bother me tap tap and I'm live, just wondered if anyone
else has had this to happen.

Thank's DM51 for a awsome shootout and to everyone else who posted
this is one of the coolest thread's of all time!!! :thumbsup:

Jeff,


----------



## brighterisbetter

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*

Alrighty then, in the spirit of keeping this thread bumped to the top, I've got a question for the M6 owners out there. I just received an M6 today from the postman and it's got one of those coupons from SF good for either an MN20 or MN21 free of charge since they were out of MN20's at the time of production. Based on DM51's conclusion of each LA's practicality, which one should I go for?


----------



## jumpstat

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*

MN21.......


----------



## Patriot

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*



monkeyboy said:


> It's always disconcerting when some people experience instaflash and others don't when seemingly using the exact same setup. I wonder if this has to do with manufacturing tolerances in the bulbs themselves? Maybe it depends on the batch?




I could be wrong but it's my opinion that the flash/no-flash scenario has mostly to do with different charging methods, cell state and voltages. If I charge my Mag85 3 x C cell right to 4.2V each, they will also instaflash the bulb. If I give them a good rest, then there is no problem.


----------



## fivemega

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*



monkeyboy said:


> It's always disconcerting when some people experience instaflash and others don't when seemingly using the exact same setup.



*Exact same setup doesn't mean exact same component.
Your AW's new batteries are not exact same as his AW's new batteries. Your WA1185 is not exact same as his WA1185. Your M6 resistance is not exact same as his M6, charger, bulb holder and ....
Another word, there is no two of same item exact same. Human can NOT make exact same thing.*



brighterisbetter said:


> If I get mdocod's 2x18650 holder, seems like that would overdrive the MN21 a bit too much


*Protected 18650 and 5 amps load?*


----------



## LuxLuthor

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*

DM, when I looked at the stock M6 holder that I got today, it sure looked like it was gonna be 3p2s, but like you said it is 3s2p. Has anyone taken it apart to see how they wired it (including size of wire vis-a-vis adequate current)?


----------



## DM51

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*

I've often wondered how they do it. The wires from each stack of 3s would need to be capable of >2.5A, total ~5A, and there's plenty of room in the struts to take thick enough wires. But I haven't actually dismantled one to see how it is wired up.


----------



## jumpstat

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*



DM51 said:


> I've often wondered how they do it. The wires from each stack of 3s would need to be capable of >2.5A, total ~5A, and there's plenty of room in the struts to take thick enough wires. But I haven't actually dismantled one to see how it is wired up.


Can only see one screw which is visible at the (-)ve end. Since this holder is ~$90, better off leaving it alone unless is gone kaput.


----------



## LuxLuthor

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*



DM51 said:


> I've often wondered how they do it. The wires from each stack of 3s would need to be capable of >2.5A, total ~5A, and there's plenty of room in the struts to take thick enough wires. But I haven't actually dismantled one to see how it is wired up.



But has no one taken one apart on CPF? That's hard to imagine.

You can get it pretty well figured out with continuity testing of the various terminal pads.


----------



## JNewell

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*



> My AW 17670s are all button-top, the newer version, so I can't test what happens with old ones.


 
I got mine from AW about a month ago, maybe two months tops... 



> *Human can NOT make exact same thing.
> *




And that we will take as a very authoritative statement from one who is very well placed to know! (Many thanks for your great products and service!) :thumbsup:


----------



## Lightedge

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*

I think I'm going to need an M6 for Xmas. Like many people, I've never seen the point in owning an M6 until reading this thread. So many lamp options if you use rechargeables.

Good stuff!


----------



## jumpstat

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*



Lightedge said:


> I think I'm going to need an M6 for Xmas. Like many people, I've never seen the point in owning an M6 until reading this thread. So many lamp options if you use rechargeables.
> 
> Good stuff!


:twothumbs Join the club! I too see it like you said, this is the time for *M6R! :naughty:*


----------



## LuxLuthor

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*



LuxLuthor said:


> But has no one taken one apart on CPF? That's hard to imagine.
> 
> You can get it pretty well figured out with continuity testing of the various terminal pads.
> 
> 
> DM51 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I've often wondered how they do it. The wires from each stack of 3s would need to be capable of >2.5A, total ~5A, and there's plenty of room in the struts to take thick enough wires. But I haven't actually dismantled one to see how it is wired up.
Click to expand...


Well I didn't take it all apart, but there are metal (likely brass) rods inside of the plastic struts that are soldered into PCB contacts. You can see the 3s sets of 2p cells in this photos I took. The top PCB shows the tracings of 1a & 1b joining into the top/center positive contact.


----------



## monkeyboy

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*

I used a DMM as a continuity tester on my M6 battery holder and that pretty much confirms what I'm seeing. From that diagram, (1) is next to the +ve contact, (3) is in the middle and (2) is next to the -ve contact.

interestingly the third trace from the top +ve contact goes down to a +ve ring contact at the bottom (surrounding the -ve contact) any idea what that's for? It's not used in the M6 but this suggests to me that the battery holder could be used for some sort of future head-twisty Surefire flashlight in the same way as the Surefire L7 and 8? series. It can also be used to fry your expensive LED tower module with reverse polarity but that's another story.

On a different note, I was out walking through the woods with my M6 (with 1185 and 3x17670) and actually timed 20 mins continuous use as DM51 suggested. 20 mins is a *lot *longer than I had expected and you can actually cover quite a bit of ground in that time. This light might actually be more useful than I had anticipated.


----------



## jumpstat

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*

Greetings to all,

Received my bulbs from Litho today and installed on Fivemega's MN socket. Real tight fit so I used some polishing and polished both bulb pins. Bulb slides smoothly now.

Using fairly new black button tops at 4.2v each fresh of the charger , I am happy to report that the bulb did not  on me. Instead I am welcomed with a bright output uncomparable to the LF M6R nor the MN21 on primaries.:thumbsup: Its brighter and with bigger centerspot.

The spot is not that round but I'm guessing that the bulb is not seating center and could see a minor donut which I am also guessing that the height of the bulb needs to be further fine tuned also.

As for double tapping, I have found that if I twist-on, it will come on instantly when cold as I expected :thumbsup:. Using the momentary button fares differently. When cold starting I need to initiate double tap . When its warmed up no problem though.......:thumbsup:

I am using the latest M6 generation and I used Nyogel 760G on both threads on the body.

To summarize, WA1185 works flawlessly except initial double tap during cold starting using the button and bulbs can handle the initial 12.6v subjected to it.......I'm gonna have me some fun tonight :thumbsup::thumbsup:

*For those still on the fence, this is HIGHLY RECOMMENDED !!...*


----------



## Lunal_Tic

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*

Great shootout, thanks for taking the time to do it. :thumbsup:

I picked up a Lumens Factory bulb based on a recommendation in another thread and haven't looked back. Compared to my MN21 primary powered light it appears brighter and has a better/tighter beam. I like it so much I may have to "retire" my MN21s. 

Thanks again for the work. This one goes into my reference folder.

-LT


----------



## gallagho

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*

Yep, I'm thinking of retiring my MN21 as well, by removing bulb envelope and somehow attaching (soldering?) a WA01185 in place :devil:

Has anybody tried something like this?

Owen


----------



## DM51

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*

Petrev did exactly that, and posted a thread about it. The alternative is to get one of FM's bi-pin sockets, if you can find one.


----------



## jumpstat

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*

Apart from Starburst and myself, does anyone else's WA1185 setup having double tapping operation? :sick2:

The batteries I'm using are fairly new and is the latest batch. Voltage of charger @4.21v and after resting (couple of hours)
@4.2v so that means that they are in good condition.

I even polish Fivemega's contacts on the holder and the brass tops. As for the tailcap, I used the CRC pressurised contact cleaner to clear away all the muck and grime.

As for the MN socket, I squared the bottom of large spring with abrasive paper and polished the seat in the body by polishing it.

What else is there to do? Oh I use Nyogel 760G on the threads. :sigh:


----------



## alantch

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*

Let me get this right - you're saying you need to double tap for momentary but not for constant on by twisting the tailcap? Have you tried cleaning the contacts at the tailcap end by any chance? The tailcap components are very easy to remove for the M6. My bulbs are not here yet so I can't try it out yet.


----------



## jumpstat

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*



alantch said:


> Let me get this right - you're saying you need to double tap for momentary but not for constant on by twisting the tailcap? Have you tried cleaning the contacts at the tailcap end by any chance? The tailcap components are very easy to remove for the M6. My bulbs are not here yet so I can't try it out yet.


Double tapping required when cold start. When the bulb is fired up, not so.


----------



## mdocod

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*

I COULDN'T TAKE IT ANYMORE!!!!

M6 is on the way. Will be my first high end SureFire and the First SureFire I pay for out of pocket. Well, technically speaking, I'm paying for it with proceeds from the sale of 2x18650 adapters, but hey,  

I'm skipping everything in the middle and going straight for the top on this one. Hope it's worth it 

I think I want to run the MN21 on some Emoli 18650s.

I now have a sudden urgent need to find some Emoli 18650s. Any ideas on where to get some loose ones?

Eric


----------



## jumpstat

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*

Eric, congrats! You save lots by going straight to the top!


----------



## LuxLuthor

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*



mdocod said:


> I COULDN'T TAKE IT ANYMORE!!!!
> 
> M6 is on the way. Will be my first high end SureFire and the First SureFire I pay for out of pocket. Well, technically speaking, I'm paying for it with proceeds from the sale of 2x18650 adapters, but hey,
> 
> I'm skipping everything in the middle and going straight for the top on this one. Hope it's worth it
> 
> I think I want to run the MN21 on some Emoli 18650s.
> 
> * I now have a sudden urgent need to find some Emoli 18650s. Any ideas on where to get some loose ones?*
> 
> Eric



Guess what I happen to have a bunch of? It is a hassle to find the right NEW tool pack, and remove them carefully. Send me a PM.

Isn't it funny? I was 100% certain I was never gettig one, and this thread did the same thing to me. My only wish is the one handed quick momentary of a side switch. I have to use my pinky to push M6 on, or gyrate it into a spin around with elbow cocked up and now using thumb....but I don't walk around like that. So that is my only (relatively small) criticism.

I'm most surprised that it has a very useful center spot, as I expected it to be more of a flood and minor spot. The short length, quality, and natural grip makes it the first SF I have high regards for. My L2 is nice, but IMHO, the M4 is a veritable turd on a stick. :laughing:


----------



## generic808

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*



LuxLuthor said:


> The short length, quality, and natural grip makes it the first SF I have high regards for. My L2 is nice, but IMHO, the M4 is a veritable turd on a stick. :laughing:


 
Really, you think so? I have three M6's and two M4's, and I find myself reaching for the M4's more than the M6's. Well, maybe the 6 batts had something to do with that but since I received Eric's batt holder, the M6 is seeing more playing time.


----------



## ttran97

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*



generic808 said:


> Really, you think so? I have three M6's and two M4's, and I find myself reaching for the M4's more than the M6's. Well, maybe the 6 batts had something to do with that but since I received Eric's batt holder, the M6 is seeing more playing time.



The thing that the M4 has over the M6 is the ability to use a clickie tailcap, in my opinion. Why oh why can't Surefire make a clickie tailcap for the M6??? That's always on the top of my "I wish Surefire would make..." list every year. 

Yes, I know there are the pro-twistie tailcap folks out there, but at least give us the option. Freedom of choice!


----------



## brighterisbetter

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*

I second that ttran97.


----------



## Monocrom

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*



mdocod said:


> I COULDN'T TAKE IT ANYMORE!!!!


 
Ah, the power of peer-pressure. :devil:

Just kidding. I'm sure you'll enjoy your M6 as much as I enjoy mine.


----------



## mwaldron

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*



jumpstat said:


> Apart from Starburst and myself, does anyone else's WA1185 setup having double tapping operation? :sick2:



Mine started requiring a double-tap last night. I have had a good run (Probably 30 minutes total) since my last charge so I set it charging right now. 

It will probably take a hour or two to charge before I can see if I still need to double-tap.


----------



## BSBG

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*



ttran97 said:


> The thing that the M4 has over the M6 is the ability to use a clickie tailcap, in my opinion.



That and it slips into your back pocket much easier .


----------



## mwaldron

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*

Just finished my charge cycle. It appears that for my setup double-tapping is an indication of low battery. My battery pack was down to 11.096V (rested no load, not exactly dead...) when I was having to double tap to start. Charged it back up and no more double-tapping.


----------



## BSBG

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*



mwaldron said:


> My battery pack was down to 11.096V (rested no load, not exactly dead...) .



That is 3.7v per cell (I know, there are resistance losses) which is as low as I like to let my Li Ion cells ever get...


----------



## mdocod

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*

A 3.7V bottom "limit" is an excellent practice 

I'm actually surprised there aren't more problems with the need for "double-tap" on the 3x17670>1185 setups reported, and that we don't hear more about rapidly wearing out cells in these conditions. The load of the 1185 is pretty extreme for a 17670, it's definitely over 2C. I remember when I was running a P91 on 2x17670s. Runtime was around or under 30 minutes, but anything past the 20 minute mark took double taps to crank up. That's *only* a ~2.65A load. The 1185 is what- around 3.3A?

Eric


----------



## mwaldron

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*

That's good to know. For some reason I was thinking 3.5 was bottom limit. 3.7 works well then, Double-tap = Recharge


----------



## alantch

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*

Bulbs arrived ... tried out the setup and from experimentation, I seem to have the same symptoms as described by jumpstat - double-tap needed to fire up a cold bulb and single-taps when bulb is still warm. No big deal though, just need to remember to twist or tap once more if it doesn't come on the first time. The output - WOW!! Will try in out tonight which I'm sure will light up the neighborhood.


----------



## jumpstat

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*



alantch said:


> Bulbs arrived ... tried out the setup and from experimentation, I seem to have the same symptoms as described by jumpstat - double-tap needed to fire up a cold bulb and single-taps when bulb is still warm. No big deal though, just need to remember to twist or tap once more if it doesn't come on the first time. The output - WOW!! Will try in out tonight which I'm sure will light up the neighborhood.


 You will love the output Alan, Bright, nice hotspot shape and wider than HO-M6R, goes further and brighter to boot. As for the double tapping tinghy, I wish my setup is like mwaldron, where double tapping means its time to recharge :sigh:. Polish the bulb pin a bit, it slides in much smoother.....


----------



## K-T

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*

I've received the new button-cells from AW and WA1185/WA1111. The M6 battery carrier from Fivemega is not here yet so I tested the setup with 9P and several battery adapters to get the correct lenght for the WA1185. I do need to double-tap, too. I hope though that this is mainly due to the build up resistance by using several battery adapters (A19). Hopefully with the M6 and all in one package the double tapping will be gone. :shrug: Nevertheless impressive output! :rock:


----------



## JNewell

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*

For a variety of reasons, I went back to the HO-M6R with 3x17670 in my M6, even though the 1185 is quite impressive.


----------



## jumpstat

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*



JNewell said:


> For a variety of reasons, I went back to the HO-M6R with 3x17670 in my M6, even though the 1185 is quite impressive.


I don't think I can go back to HO-M6R having seen what WA1185 is capable of.


----------



## jumpstat

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*



K-T said:


> I've received the new button-cells from AW and WA1185/WA1111. The M6 battery carrier from Fivemega is not here yet so I tested the setup with 9P and several battery adapters to get the correct lenght for the WA1185. I do need to double-tap, too. I hope though that this is mainly due to the build up resistance by using several battery adapters (A19). Hopefully with the M6 and all in one package the double tapping will be gone. :shrug: Nevertheless impressive output! :rock:


After 3 days of hard usage, I found that I could live with the double tapping. Its not that bad really. But I'm still learning to know when to start recharging. So far so good.


----------



## cenz

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*

Why would MN21 be a short life when using 2XC li-ions?

If yes, how about 2x18650s ? both of them are 3.7V ...


----------



## DM51

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*



cenz said:


> Why would MN21 be a short life when using 2XC li-ions?
> 
> If yes, how about 2x18650s ? both of them are 3.7V ...


Because the bulb runs at a higher voltage with 2x C Li-Ions than it does on primaries - it is being over-driven, which will shorten its life.

2x 18650 have insufficient capacity to run the MN21 - the bulb draws ~5A, which is >2C for these cells. Despite this, the voltage will still be more than optimal for the MN21.


----------



## cenz

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*



DM51 said:


> Because the bulb runs at a higher voltage with 2x C Li-Ions than it does on primaries - it is being over-driven, which will shorten its life.
> 
> 2x 18650 have insufficient capacity to run the MN21 - the bulb draws ~5A, which is >2C for these cells. Despite this, the voltage will still be more than optimal for the MN21.



6xCR123(3S2P)=9V & 2x18650(2S)=8.4V, why overdrive?

As I know, MN21 is rated 6.1v working voltage(?), if in 2x18650s config., it is 3.05v per each cell, which under the 3.7 nominal voltage, and is it a bad for 18650?


----------



## DM51

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*

Because of voltage sag. Under this heavy load, the primaries will sag to below 6.5V, while the Li-Ions will remain above 7V.


----------



## cenz

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*



DM51 said:


> Because of voltage sag. Under this heavy load, the primaries will sag to below 6.5V, while the Li-Ions will remain above 7V.



Ic.. thx DM51,

I'm checking about P91 w/ 2x18650s, it will sag to 3.375v each cell, so is it not suitable for 2xli-ions?

also, it is a very nice thread, beautiful bulbs and batteries!!


----------



## DM51

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*

The P91 will work very well indeed with 2x 18650s. It won't fit in an M6 though - the fitting is different (a P91 has its own reflector).


----------



## cenz

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*



DM51 said:


> The P91 will work very well indeed with 2x 18650s. It won't fit in an M6 though - the fitting is different (a P91 has its own reflector).



thanks DM51


----------



## Bullzeyebill

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*

2X18650's over power the P91. Try 2X17500's, or 18500's. Overtime, and not much at that, my P91 dropped off output, and now is sort of dark but still working. Also, a lot of heat build up in the confined space of the 6P type bezel. The MN16 seems to be more robust in the larger KT1/2, or KT4.

Bill


----------



## djans1397

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*

Just my 2 cents, but someone may have already posted the same. 

I'm running a MN61 on 3 x 18650's in my modded M$ and it is KILLER bright! I just bought an ROP that's using LuxLuthers 7.2V Eneloop battery pack with a ROP Hi bulb and my M4 is still brighter than this, or at least to my naked eyes. The M4 is even brighter than the LF HO- M6R bulb that I bought for it.

I'm sure the bulb life of the MN61 will not be as long as the ROP Hi bulb though. I'm also not sure of the runtime for th M4 while running this setup. Any thoughts on this?

Dan


----------



## openbolt1

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*



jumpstat said:


> Apart from Starburst and myself, does anyone else's WA1185 setup having double tapping operation? :sick2:




I have to report that I am running x6 of AW's RCR123's in the factory battery holder with FM's Bi-Pin bulb holder with a WA1185 with outstanding results. No double tap required and extremely bright & white as heck. Large somewhat oval hotspot with a huge wall-of-light room lighting spill. I could not be happier.

I'd like to thank all who came before me and made things easy....

openbolt


----------



## mdocod

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*

openbolt1,
The use of RCR123s in the M6 carrier to drive the 1185 is not advisable. The True capacity of an RCR123 under a ~1.65A load is probably less than 500mAH, so you're pushing 3C+ discharge rates on those cells, They won't last very long unless you are very careful to keep your usage short, only use in short bursts, and top off the cells frequently. 

-----------------------

For folks using the 1185 in the M6, why not a 9x 2/3A NIMH welded pack. It would fit just fine with room to spare, have similar capacity compared with 3x17670, be pack rechargeable, have no protection problems, could toss an NTC on the pack to reduce bulb failures.....

Maybe Luxluthor could chime in on this idea, he has an M6 and builds packs all the time, I bet this would be the better way to go.

Eric


----------



## DM51

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*

I fully agree about using RCR123s with a 1185 - short bursts only. The 3x17670 is better, but still quite tough on the cells.

----------------

Coincidentally I just posted in your other thread suggesting Mr.Luthor would be the man to talk to about a NiMH pack!


----------



## openbolt1

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*



mdocod said:


> openbolt1,
> The use of RCR123s in the M6 carrier to drive the 1185 is not advisable. The True capacity of an RCR123 under a ~1.65A load is probably less than 500mAH, so you're pushing 3C+ discharge rates on those cells, They won't last very long unless you are very careful to keep your usage short, only use in short bursts, and top off the cells frequently.
> 
> -----------------------
> 
> For folks using the 1185 in the M6, why not a 9x 2/3A NIMH welded pack. It would fit just fine with room to spare, have similar capacity compared with 3x17670, be pack rechargeable, have no protection problems, could toss an NTC on the pack to reduce bulb failures.....
> 
> Maybe Luxluthor could chime in on this idea, he has an M6 and builds packs all the time, I bet this would be the better way to go.
> 
> Eric



Well I suppose I'm getting in a little bit of a hurry as I am waiting on a couple of FM's x3 17670 holders. Quite by accident I've been using short bursts, not because I had the information mind you but I had a vague idea it could be harmful to the lil' RCR123's. I really like your ideas on the rechargeable packs...I'm waiting and looking for any responses about that.

Thanks for looking out for me!


----------



## jumpstat

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*

I too tried like what openbolt1 did, no double taps and such but the cells are heating up faster than the 3x17670 configuration. Anyways the 3x17670 a good setup for the WA1185, only thing is that charging with a single WF-139 takes too much time....need 2 of those. (worse if charging 6xR123a to run the stock MB20 and HO-M6R)


----------



## mwaldron

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*



mdocod said:


> For folks using the 1185 in the M6, why not a 9x 2/3A NIMH welded pack. It would fit just fine with room to spare, have similar capacity compared with 3x17670, be pack rechargeable, have no protection problems, could toss an NTC on the pack to reduce bulb failures.....



js designed, manufactured, and sold such a pack quite a while ago, and it was regulated using a Willie Hunt LVR to boot. Several people copied the idea (as I believe was js' intention) but the LVR's are no longer availiable. I keep hoping for one or two to pop up so I can make one of my own but so far no luck.


----------



## mdocod

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*

I guess great minds think alike 

no, I'm not bragging, lol.


----------



## brightnorm

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*



mwaldron said:


> js designed, manufactured, and sold such a pack quite a while ago, and it was regulated using a Willie Hunt LVR to boot. Several people copied the idea (as I believe was js' intention) but the LVR's are no longer availiable. I keep hoping for one or two to pop up so I can make one of my own but so far no luck.


First of all, congratulations to DM51 for all his work on this unique thread. I reviewed and beta-tested one of JS's original M6-R packs and have to say that after all this time and many recharges my M6-R is still functioning flawlessly, running the MN21 at full brightness for nearly 20 minutes. It has proven utterly reliable. It's a shame that the LVR is no longer available. Though slightly OT I should add that I'm also using JS's regulated Tiger 1111 for about 40 minutes of consistant brightness. I remember when regulated incandescent lights were a fantasy until Surefire came out with the A2. Not that many years ago in CPF it was thought that a rechargeable M6, whether regulated or not, was simply not viable. We’ve come a long way.

Brightnorm


----------



## brunt_sp

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*



ttran97 said:


> .........Why oh why can't Surefire make a clickie tailcap for the M6??? That's always on the top of my "I wish Surefire would make..." list every year.


I totally agree. If Surefire aren't going to make one then I thought perhaps Leef could do in the style of his BigLeef system tailcap. At one stage he was thinking about one for the Mags.

https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/185405

I sent him a PM about the possibility of one for the M6 but didn't receive a reply. :mecry:


----------



## donn_

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*

I'd like to see a custom part which would screw into an M6 or M4, between the head and tube, containing a side-switch. I don't think tail-switches are practical on lights this big and long. The same goes for the BigLeef system.


----------



## Sgt. LED

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*

Donn that would push me over the edge and make me adopt the big leef big time!


----------



## LED61

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*

I think the advantages of the Lock out tailcap disappear in a forward or reverse clickie, a very useful safety feature foregone.


----------



## LuxLuthor

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*

DM, I made a post here where I tested AW's 17670 and they drop below 3.3V (10V for 3 cells) resulting in a decreased output pretty quickly. I was surprised.


----------



## mdocod

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*

~1.3AH into the load of an 1185. 

runtime 23-24 minutes, if you run it down to dead, 

~18-19 minutes if you don't want your cells over-discharged.

~2.5C discharge rate.


----------



## Ray1968

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*

Any estimates on the bulb life of a LF HO-M6R using 3x 17670?


----------



## LuxLuthor

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*



mdocod said:


> ~1.3AH into the load of an 1185.
> 
> runtime 23-24 minutes, if you run it down to dead,
> 
> ~18-19 minutes if you don't want your cells over-discharged.
> 
> ~2.5C discharge rate.



That's what I would have thought, but it was more like 0.8Ah before the output got bad from my graphs in previous post. I'll do a correlation "in the M6" to see how CBA-II discharge info pans out.


----------



## LuxLuthor

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*

Well that was a poopy experiment. 

Put in 3 freshly charged AW 16760-P cells into FiveMega's M6 holder, and a new 1185 in FM's bulb holder, and noticed a nice bright light when starting to screw down tailcap, then a sad, wimpy beam. Obviously, I should have known better given all my destructive testing, but I was excited and careless.

Starting cell voltage was 4.17V (pack 12.52V). Ending 4.15V (pack 12.46V). So let this be a warning at the very least. Trying to make lemonade out of studity, I at least had the forethought to get some pretty cool bulb failure sequence pictures that I posted in Icebreak's Failure thread here.


----------



## Ray1968

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*

Ok. And this was caused by what? Too much voltage?


----------



## Sgt. LED

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*

Just tried an LF EO-M3T on 2 18650's for the first time.

BLOWS THE MN20 OUT OF THE WATER!


----------



## Patriot

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*



LuxLuthor said:


> Well that was a poopy experiment.
> 
> Put in 3 freshly charged AW 16760-P cells into FiveMega's M6 holder, and a new 1185 in FM's bulb holder, and noticed a nice bright light when starting to screw down tailcap, then a sad, wimpy beam. Obviously, I should have known better given all my destructive testing, but I was excited and careless.





oooooo, that was brave Lux. I've found that anything over 4.1V per cell almost always flashes the 1185 in the M6.


----------



## LuxLuthor

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*



Patriot36 said:


> oooooo, that was brake Lux. I've found that anything over 4.1V per cell almost always flashes the 1185 in the M6.



Yeah, I knew better...and should have drained some voltage off the freshly charged Li-Ion's and DM may want to add that tip to first post. 

Here was my post about testing the AW 17670-P cells in the amp ranges that the 1185 uses. Note the short mA run before it drops below an acceptable level. It needs regulation.


----------



## jumpstat

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*

Last night, I charged the batts for the 10th time for the WA1185 setup. Happy to report.....

1) *I am still on my first bulb. 4.20v x 3 AWs still ok. No instaflashes .*
2) Runtime around 25 minutes till shuts off.  Free lumens..and batts are warm to the hands.
3) Still need double tap on cold starts. Got used to it by now.
4) Bulb still looks clean. No deposits can be seen.
5) *The output with M6 IS WORTH THE $$ and WAIT for parts*.


----------



## Chodes

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*

I have just tried the MN21 with 2 Ultrafire 18650s. Surprisingly good combination, but I suspect it's the cells that will suffer rather than the MN21.
I ran for 5 mins, then checked tailcap current , then put cells on BC6-10 discharging at similar current for 30 secs and repeated 4 times until 20 minutes reached. At 5,10,15,20 minutes I measured 4.8A,4.7A,4.65A,4.55A at the tailcap and 3.37v,3.28v,3.22v,3.14v after 30 secs on the BC6-10 disharging each time.
Cells were stopped at 4.2v when charging , not trickled so not fully charged.
I compared 6 x CR123 surefires supplied with the M6, measured 4.6A tailcap after 10 seconds. 
I tested all 6 CR123 cells for 10 seconds at 2.3A, 2.08v-2.13v was the range of volts under load.

So I'm guessing with the CR123s voltage at the bulb would only go above 6v for 30 seconds or so before dropping into the 5 point something. I'd be getting 6.8 for a couple of minutes , averaging about 6.5v.


----------



## Patriot

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*



jumpstat said:


> Last night, I charged the batts for the 10th time for the WA1185 setup. Happy to report.....
> 
> 1) *I am still on my first bulb. 4.20v x 3 AWs still ok. No instaflashes .*
> 2) Runtime around 25 minutes till shuts off.  Free lumens..and batts are warm to the hands.
> 3) Still need double tap on cold starts. Got used to it by now.
> 4) Bulb still looks clean. No deposits can be seen.
> 5) *The output with M6 IS WORTH THE $$ and WAIT for parts*.




Good report!

I tested mine last night at 4.15V each and it didn't flash. One difference I've noticed with mine is that no double tap is needed ever.


----------



## Daniel_sk

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*



jumpstat said:


> 3) Still need double tap on cold starts. Got used to it by now.


 
Try to clean the Nyogel off the threads, it think it might be one of the reasons. My M6 also needed double-tapping, I used a lot of nyogel on the threads - I think it adds to the resistance? It might be worth trying. (I don't have an M6 right now so I can't test it myself).


----------



## Chodes

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*

Success for my M6 1185 (so far...)
Received some 1760s from AW today, quick check on the BC6-10 charger showed they are all at 4.2V. So into the M6 with 1185 bulb and greeted by bright light! 
I've got another set of 17670s and holder so I'll put a Mag85 together so I can take check how much light output drops as voltage sags during the run.
I'll also find out if double tapping is required as the cells discharge.


----------



## Chodes

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*

So much for the 3x17670 Mag. The 3x17670 holders won't fit. 
So I swapped my mag 623 parts out and I now have a 3x AW C LION Mag85 with AW driver. Should be low resistance as I only have a small piece of rubber with braid wrapped around for connection at the tailcap. 
Fully charged cells , the M6 iwth 3x17670 is brighter! Using a Litho #3 reflector in the Mag.
I was expecting the 3 C LION to be brighter :thinking: Anyway in the time that took it has become dark , so I can now go give the M6 a run and have a good comparison.


----------



## Chodes

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*

I can confirm two 1185s are plenty of light for a bush walk 
M6 1185 with 3 x17670 ran for 21 mins 43 before shutting off. (I was planning to turn off at 22 mins)
Compared to the Mag85 with 3 C LION, the M6 appears just slightly brighter initially , but after about 1 minute they are very even. 
After 10 minutes constant run, still an even match. Only about a minute cool down then another 5 minutes - at 15mins total the M6 is dimming slightly.
Still single tapping. At 20 minutes , M6 appears about 80% (somewhere between 60% and 100% using the AW driver to compare) Still able to single tap start.
At 21:30 I judged the M6 to be at about 60% so was about to switch off but the cells beat me to it.
Cells measured 3.70,3.70,3.64v each open circuit when I got home about 10 minutes later. 
So I'm pretty happy. No poof , no double tap


----------



## jumpstat

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*



Daniel_sk said:


> Try to clean the Nyogel off the threads, it think it might be one of the reasons. My M6 also needed double-tapping, I used a lot of nyogel on the threads - I think it adds to the resistance? It might be worth trying. (I don't have an M6 right now so I can't test it myself).


I might try this later...thanks for the suggestion.


----------



## Chodes

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*



jumpstat said:


> I might try this later...thanks for the suggestion.



I lubed both ends of my M6 before trying the 3x17670/1185 bulb without double tap requirement.

I've been thinking about the different experiences we are having with similar configurations. Could there be large differences between start up current for different bulbs? I notice LuxLuthor reports consistent results for a lot of bulbs he tests , but that is output and instaflash characteristics.
While current draw/output for various bulbs of the same manufacture may be within a few percent , could the initial start up vary by much bigger amount? Could the very slight resistance variations between our setups cause large differneces in startup - eg there may be 10-50 milliohm variations between lights that results in very small normal run characteristics , but the lights with slightly more resistance suppress the spike? Could cells with slighlty lower internal resistance be the problem , allowing higher initial current therefore tripping the protection?

Does anyone know what typical spike characteristics for particular bulbs?
I'd guess an 1185 would draw 10-15 Amps for fractions of a second.


----------



## Ray1968

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*

Got my 3x17670 + 1185 set up going a couple of days ago. First I tried it with new AW cells that hadn't been charged yet (4.04). No problems, no double tapping required. Then I charged the cells (4.20, 4.20, 4.21) loaded them up and nervously twisted on the tail-cap. Still no problems. No insta-flash, no double tapping. All is well (and bright).


----------



## jumpstat

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*



Ray1968 said:


> Got my 3x17670 + 1185 set up going a couple of days ago. First I tried it with new AW cells that hadn't been charged yet (4.04). No problems, no double tapping required. Then I charged the cells (4.20, 4.20, 4.21) loaded them up and nervously twisted on the tail-cap. Still no problems. No insta-flash, no double tapping. All is well (and bright).


Congrats! :thumbsup:


----------



## jumpstat

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*



Chodes said:


> I lubed both ends of my M6 before trying the 3x17670/1185 bulb without double tap requirement.
> 
> I've been thinking about the different experiences we are having with similar configurations. Could there be large differences between start up current for different bulbs? I notice LuxLuthor reports consistent results for a lot of bulbs he tests , but that is output and instaflash characteristics.
> While current draw/output for various bulbs of the same manufacture may be within a few percent , could the initial start up vary by much bigger amount? Could the very slight resistance variations between our setups cause large differneces in startup - eg there may be 10-50 milliohm variations between lights that results in very small normal run characteristics , but the lights with slightly more resistance suppress the spike? Could cells with slighlty lower internal resistance be the problem , allowing higher initial current therefore tripping the protection?
> 
> Does anyone know what typical spike characteristics for particular bulbs?
> I'd guess an 1185 would draw 10-15 Amps for fractions of a second.


All I can see here is either of two things, batteries and bulb since everything else is the same.....I've ordered another set of new batteries from AW and when that comes in, I'll try it out with the existing bulb i'm using and if it is still double tapping then a different bulb and see how it goes....:shakehead


----------



## DM51

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*

Hi guys, I've been away 2 weeks, just back yesterday. 

LuxLuthor's posts above (#149, #153 and #157) quantify the voltage sag of 17670s with the 1185 and suggest regulation is required - very useful work.

Still some variations between those who are getting instaflashes with the 1185 and fully-charged Li-Ions, and those who are not. I think I am just lucky - it hasn't happened to me. 

However it is occurring sufficiently frequently to be a concern, which takes us back to the idea of regulation...

Maybe a factor in this is clean contacts, resistance fixes etc. It could be that those who are less assiduous in cleaning their contacts with Deoxit & Progold, and have not bothered with minimising resistance, and getting no problems, while those who are more careful are being punished with blown bulbs. Not fair, if true...

Anyway, here is a pic I took while on holiday. The lighting was by a single M6R, running a 1185 on 3x17670. 








He looked peaceful enough, but I took the pic quite quickly and then beat a hasty retreat, not wishing to have 6 tons of annoyed elephant on my hands!


----------



## donn_

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*

Cool shot! That may be the first Pachyderm illuminated with an 1185.

My guess is you didn't holiday in Iceland.


----------



## Chodes

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*

My Nirvana was short lived.
After a few days and many successful "fire ups" of the 1185 and 1331 bulb with 3x17670 I popped 3 bulbs.
First a 1331. I knew I was tempting fate , but I wanted to find out if the bulb was expired , or if I had reached higher pack volts. So another 1331 bulb - poof. Tried an 1185 - poof. Measured 12.51 volts in the holder.

I had charged these cells individually on the BC6-10 at 0.8A, stopped charge when current settled at 0.4A. Previously I had charged at 1.6A , stopped charge at about 0.3A. So I think I crammed a bit more charge by doing this , therefore the instaflashing.

2 minutes discharging at 1.6A on the BC6-10 and pack volts dropped to about 12.41v and no problems now with the 1185.

I was really happy with the 1331 , nice white beam and nicer beam shape than the 1185.

I have ordered a Lumens Factory HO-M6R - may be a better option.


----------



## Sgt. LED

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*

Yeah you made a good choice.:thumbsup:


----------



## mdocod

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*

I'm interested in both some heavy hitters and searching for some low output, longer running solution that could be used with 2x protected 18650s for more runtime when needed.

I'm prepaid for a spot in the next run of bi-pin to MN adapters from fivemega and am planning on buying the following bulbs to experiment with on 2x18650 Emoli type cells:
(all from bulb connection, listed from low wattage to high wattage). 

-----------------------

5972 (philips 31333-8): 10W, 6V, 200hr, T-3, G4

787 (GE 43115): 10W, 6V, 100hr, T-2.25, G4

ESA/FHD (philips 26126-3): 10W, 6V, 100hr, T-2.5, G4

64250 HLX (probably the Osram 54261 (ESB)): 20W, 6V, 100hr, T-3, G4

WA 01111-U (Welch Allyn): 20W, 6V, 100hr, T-2.25, G4

5761 (philips 25713-9): 30W, 6V, 100hr, T-3.5, G4

I might also order the 64275, even though it usually doesn't fit  (35W, 6V, 50hr, T-3, G4)

------------------------

So that's the plan, but it'll be at least a month or so before i can test and do a shootout as I have to wait for the bi-pin adapter, and some cash flow to buy these bulbs..

If anyone knows if some of these won't fit, or are a tight fit, I'd love to hear about it before I order. 

I'm most excited about the little GE 43115, it looks like a WA bulb, very small, maybe it'll have a nice beam to go with it's low output. 

I'm also curious to see how the Osram 54261 compares to the WA1111, considering that you can buy almost 4 54261's for the price of a single 1111. 

One thing that's strange to me, is folks say that the 5761 fits, and it's listed as a T-3.5 bulb, but the 64275 doesn't, even though it's listed as a T-3 bulb... any thoughts on this? I have seen the picts and I know the 64275 is larger in real life but was wondering if anyone knew why the strange bulb size listing discrepancy. I was under the impression that the bulb size number was closely correlated to the globe size. 

Eric


----------



## Hitthespot

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*

Dave,
Just got a chance to look through and read most of your post. Phenominal. 

I enjoyed it.

Thanks
Bill


----------



## monkeyboy

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*

yup the 1185 instaflashes with 4.2v per cell with me too. I only tried it once but it's not an experiment that I want to repeat. 4.15v per cell seems OK but I think I'll use 4.1V to be on the safe side. I've built a discharging device using the charging jack of the FM battery holder and a 21W 12V bulb.

I didn't think it was necessary before but JimmyM's PWM trim driver now looks like quite a good idea and would prolong the bulb life in any case. If only it could be built into the FM battery holder.


----------



## Wattnot

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*

Well I now have some Emoli (equivalent - from Ryobi pack) cells and mdocod's holder and I'm using the stock MN21 and I have to say I really like it . . . . so far!

Mdocod is concerned that the MN21 is getting too much voltage and it's life will be significantly reduced. The stock battery holder with primaries has a higher initial voltage than the 2 Emolis but the primaries sag quite a bit where the Emolis do not. This makes the output brighter by at least 10 percent (my guesstimate) but I haven't used it long enough to know just how much the lifespan of the lamp will be reduced.

What I do like is using the stock lamp and I'm hoping it lasts long enough to make it worth it!! Otherwise I'm just going to go with the wa1111 (or one of the ones md mentioned above) since I'm all set up with 2x18650 battery holders and cells!

:naughty:


----------



## DM51

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*

Wattnot, that is interesting and it will be very helpful if you could let us know how you get on. Try to keep a log of the total running time of your MN21, to see how long it lasts on LiMn cells. I know it is only one bulb and you need a reasonably large number of them to tell average lifetime, but it will nevertheless be interesting to hear how long it lasts.


----------



## Gerhard

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*

WOW - Nice collection of lights and excellent work. :twothumbs


----------



## cl0123

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*



DM51 said:


> The *WA 1111*
> Output………….. ðððð
> Run-time….……. ðððð
> Practicality……. ðððð
> Overall…………... :devil:
> 
> The *Lumens Factory* *HO-M6R*
> Output………….. ððð
> Run-time……….. ðððð
> Practicality……. ððððð
> Overall…………...
> 
> 
> I hope this thread is some help to those deciding what to run in their own M6.


DM51,

This thread indeed helps a great deal. My crude testing with the following combinations (all AW Protected cells):


HO-M6R + 6xRCR123 Surefire OEM
HO-M6R + 3x17670 by Fivemega
WA 1111 + 2x18650 by Mdocod
 
Shooting the photons side by side towards a white wall about 15 feet away, I can see that #3 does appear to have the ever-so-slightly more intense center spot. The difference is more visible when I did a side-by-side using #1 and #3 together. When I compare #2 with #3, I think the outputs were really very close to the naked eyes. 

Conclusions


Leisurely uses like "wow-ing" church kids, walk around the block, light-painting the midnight greens - prefer the 3x17670 or the 2x18650 holders and the appropriate bulb among the HO-M6R, WA 1111, or WA 1185. Guilt-free lumens is the major deciding factor.
Eveready kit - OEM holder with 1 set of RCR123 and a spare OEM holder with fresh primaries. HO-M6R, MN20, MN21 bulbs. Charger with additional car cord. I have a kit packed in a tiny Pelican with a small 2-cell light in it too. That's part of my grab-n-go emergency gears.
"Urban-camping (meaning no wilderness, sleeping in real beds, with internet connection, air-conditioning, etc.) kit - HO-M6R with all RCR123s and charging accessories. Only one cell format to think about. Well, a set of primary 123s too, just in case.

The HO-M6R seems to be a very versatile lamp module. 

With Aloha, 

Clarence


----------



## jumpstat

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*

I have the following setup for my M6.

1) WA1185 + FM3x17670
2) HO-M6R + FM3x17670
3) HO-M6R + 6xR123a(MB20)
4) MN21 + 6xSF123(MB20)

For Beam output and beam pattern I would say that #1 is the best. IMO HO-M6R has less spill but more concentrated spot. However HO-M6R is more versatile as it allows 3x17670 and 6R123a in the MB20 holder. I have yet to acquire the WA1111 to run with 2x18650 which practically would be more useful as only 2 batteries of higher mAh and easier to recharge..

Although my M6 do suffer from the double tap for my WA1185 setup and the 24 minute runtime, I am happy with the overall performance. 

Happy to report that I have run approximately 200 minutes on the bulbs, so far so good..


----------



## mdocod

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*



cl0123 said:


> DM51,
> 
> This thread indeed helps a great deal. My crude testing with the following combinations (all AW Protected cells):
> 
> 
> HO-M6R + 6xRCR123 Surefire OEM
> HO-M6R + 3x17670 by Fivemega
> WA 1111 + 2x18650 by Mdocod



Do you mean 6xCR123 primary cells there? (I see an "R" in there, which indicates "rechargeable") Same occurs again below...



> Eveready kit - OEM holder with 1 set of RCR123 and a spare OEM holder with fresh primaries. HO-M6R, MN20, MN21 bulbs. Charger with additional car cord. I have a kit packed in a tiny Pelican with a small 2-cell light in it too. That's part of my grab-n-go emergency gears.





When you say you have a "charger" for this configuration- I'm confused- the stock CR123 pack can not be recharged.

Eric


----------



## cl0123

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*

Eric, 

Pardon the brevity of my earlier response. Let me try again. 

Yes, I do have six AW protected RCR123 cells (came from another fellow CPF'er, not sure about condition of the cells because, :shakehead, I do not have an accurate DMM, but these cells do look very new) installed in the SF holder. It seems to fire up the HO-M6R lamp just fine. So far, I've had recharged twice. Please let me know your concerns as I know little about electronics. 

Due to work needs, I do have a ready-to-go kit packed. I include a Pila charger and its accessory car cords into the light kit so that whenever I have access to a wall outlet or a car, I can recharge the batteries. Otherwise, I have at least a dozen primary SF batteries in the kit for those extended emergency uses. Come to think of it, I should stash another dozen cells in my car, just in case. 

Hope the helps!

With Aloha, 

Clarence



mdocod said:


> Do you mean 6xCR123 primary cells there? (I see an "R" in there, which indicates "rechargeable") Same occurs again below...
> 
> 
> 
> When you say you have a "charger" for this configuration- I'm confused- the stock CR123 pack can not be recharged.
> 
> Eric


----------



## DM51

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*

No... he _does_ mean RCR123s in that context. 6 of these in the MB-20 holder will give him 3s2p, which is OK for the HO-M6R - not as much capacity as 3x17670, but perfectly OK.


----------



## cl0123

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*

3s2p = 3-in-series-2-in-parallel. :laughing: (laughing at myself) It did take me a long while to finally understand this acronym. Thanks. 

I have not done any run-time tests yet for fear the batteries will blow or something. Someone wrote that it is a good idea to test-run the light down until the battery fails (protection kicks in) to get an estimate. AW's figures on his CPF Market thread suggest that two RCR123 running in parallel should deliver 750+750 mAh, which is very close to the 17670. 

Sigh! Before last week, I was happy with my ancient hand-me-down DMM. Running the Chinese DMM in the 20v range, is it really possible that the error exceeds a full volt? Don't answer that.... one step at a time, I am in no rush to learn, this is a good I-see-da-light hobby for me. :candle:

With Aloha,

Clarence



DM51 said:


> No... he does mean RCR123s in that context. 6 of these in the MB-20 holder will give him 3s2p, which is OK for the HO-M6R - not as much capacity as 3x17670, but perfectly OK.


----------



## DM51

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*



cl0123 said:


> Someone wrote that it is a good idea to test-run the light down until the battery fails (protection kicks in) to get an estimate.


You can do that once or twice, but don't do it often unless you have to, as it is not good for the cells. It is better to top up the cells after each use, not run them right down.


----------



## gallagho

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*

Just been out for a walk around my local marina with my 'M6R' (3*17670 & WA1185) really nice! Thanks for the idea/research DM51 

Just wondering how many lumens do you think this setup puts out??

Thanks.


----------



## Wattnot

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*



DM51 said:


> Wattnot, that is interesting and it will be very helpful if you could let us know how you get on. Try to keep a log of the total running time of your MN21, to see how long it lasts on LiMn cells. I know it is only one bulb and you need a reasonably large number of them to tell average lifetime, but it will nevertheless be interesting to hear how long it lasts.


 
I'll try and do that. I was taking some beamshots for an upcoming review and threw in a couple for you guys for this subject.

The first is the M6 with Primaries. These have around 5 minutes cumulative time on them . . . not fresh but well over 1/2 full. 








This next one is with the Emoli type cells. They were charged over a week ago but had no time on them for this shot.







Both shots were at 100 feet with the same manual exposure setting and I set the camera to the primaries so the rechargeables might have overexposed it a little. This was my first real workout with the new camera.

The difference is more drastic than I first guessed. I'm already used to the brightness on the rechargeables. The brightness on the primaries looked lethargic in comparison . . . so much so that I'd sell it if primaries were my only option!! So I'm SPOILED already!


----------



## cl0123

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*



DM51 said:


> You can do that once or twice, but don't do it often unless you have to, as it is not good for the cells. It is better to top up the cells after each use, not run them right down.


:naughty: It was dark outside and I thought it would be a good time to test the cut-off time. Laying them out on the cold kitchen floor side by side:


2x18650 + WA1111
3x17670 + WA1185

I actually put an oscillating tower-fan hoping to create some cooling draft. Both light began to feel lukewarm at around the 10 minutes mark. At around the 18th minute mark, while browsing CPF in front of my mac close by, I heard a faint click. Sure enough, one of them lights went . #2 light was warmer but still very hand-holdable. Taking a closer look into the bezel; however, I saw a few pieces of glass fragments and burnt wires tattering on the reflector. It was not the PCL that got tripped. 


3x17670 readings*:


Before = 12.54v
After = 11.58v
Only have 1 each of the WA1185 and WA1111 left. I contemplated and decided to stop the test and turned off #1 as well. Ruining one bulb a week so far, I'm embarrassed to admit. 

Unscientific conclusions:


Do not plan to run the 3x17670 + WA1185 for more than 20 minutes without backup - including another ready-to-go bi-pin holder with bulb already installed, with spare batteries in another FM holder, of course.
Setup #1 and #2 provide essentially very close illumination intensities, for most of my practical purposes (nothing beyond 50 yards).
Setup #2 ran appreciably hotter than #1. More than likely making the 1185 bulb more fragile and failure-prone.
Setup #1 feels like the safer and more reliable between the two wow-light options.
Well, for my own uses, anyway.

The WA1185 is still my favorite wow-light the resembles the beams from a motorcycle's headlight. However, I just really need to hone my techniques in using those. 

With Aloha, 

Clarence

*I finally retired my old hand-me-down DMM which still gave 15+ volts reading.


----------



## DM51

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*

Sorry about your bulb, Clarence - pop goes $6, but that’s less painful than a $30 MNxx.
 
Be careful cleaning the bits of bulb out of the reflector. I hope it's not damaged. If you have a gentle air-jet, use that, but nothing else. Don't use any cleaner fluid or anything. If a few tiny pieces of glass are left inside... well, just leave them there, would be my advice.
 
Was the bulb completely clean, or had you touched it with your fingers when putting it in the bi-pin holder? If you handled it, that could be the cause, as grease from your fingers can make them blow. It’s worth getting a can of iso-propyl alcohol and using it to clean the bulb after handling it.
 
Good test – I would agree with the 20 mins for the 1185 / 3x17670.


----------



## AW

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*

One question. Are the flashed 1185 reported here newer batch ? I am asking because I have been running some 1185s that I got couple years ago without any problem ( on 3 x 18650s, 3 x Cs and 6 x 17500s ( 3S2P ) ). I 'll test some recently ordered 1185s to see if they'll  on the same setups. Even a couple coils shorter filament between batches makes a difference.


----------



## Sgt. LED

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*

Hey, if the reflector is really screwed up Surefire will fix you back up. No hassles.


----------



## cl0123

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*

Wattnot, 

Thanks for posting the pics. I found similar results too. For anything indoor within say, 10 to 20 feet, I wonder if there is such a thing of "law of diminishing returns"? Indeed the 17670x3 + WA1185 is appreciably brighter than the R123(SF primary)x6 + MN21; however, I think the MN21 is actually good enough. I guess I am trying to say that perhaps the hotspot from the WA1185 "may" even be too bright which makes my eyes squint. (Ah, note to self, need to try shining the beam on something non-white-wall to see if my eyes still saw "white spots" after the flashlight was turned off.)

Once you get outdoors, and with a target distance of a good 100 feet or so, my eyes WANT that extra light-intensity from the WA1185 bulb to see things clearly. The WA1185-illuminated target simply shows a cripser outline and better contrasts - which is one of best rewards of this CandlePower hobby! :twothumbs

(Maybe blasphemy to this incan forum, but oh boy do I wish one day there is a LED or whatever technology alternative that can deliver this kind of output without the heat and battery-exhaustion.... :candle

With Aloha, 

Clarence 


Wattnot said:


> Both shots were at 100 feet ...
> 
> The difference is more drastic than I first guessed. I'm already used to the brightness on the rechargeables. The brightness on the primaries looked lethargic in comparison . . . so much so that I'd sell it if primaries were my only option!! So I'm SPOILED already!


----------



## cl0123

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*

Thanks for the tips. Last night I looked, but I don't think I figured out how to remove the reflector from the metal bezel yet anyway. I did recall seeing another thread by a fellow CPF member mentioning the disastrous results by trying to clean the reflector. It makes sense to use something highly reflective to coat the reflector. The COST is that it is very fragile similar to mirrors inside an SLR. I did actually use a small hurricane blower to help blow out and dislodge a chunk of glass shard that was wedged between the lenses and the bezel. 

Good _catch_ on the dirty fingers, and indeed that's the primary suspect. However, (trying not to blame my ignorance) I really thought I DID NOT NEED to do that because I cannot see how a soldier would clean their hands, install the bulb, alcohol-swab the bulb, tighten the bezel.... 

Which brings another question? Are the OEM MN20 or whichever version bulbs more robust than the aftermarket MN Bi-Pin holder + bulb? How about the pre-assembled LF bulbs? I am asking because I am contemplating to include the WA1185 bulbs into my emergency kit at all. It' super-bright, but so far it does seem to require extra care and precaution to run them. 

With Aloha, 

Clarence 

:sigh: Time to look for more bulbs.



DM51 said:


> Sorry about your bulb, Clarence - pop goes $6, but that’s less painful than a $30 MNxx.
> 
> Be careful cleaning the bits of bulb out of the reflector. I hope it's not damaged. If you have a gentle air-jet, use that, but nothing else. Don't use any cleaner fluid or anything. If a few tiny pieces of glass are left inside... well, just leave them there, would be my advice.
> 
> Was the bulb completely clean, or had you touched it with your fingers when putting it in the bi-pin holder? If you handled it, that could be the cause, as grease from your fingers can make them blow. It’s worth getting a can of iso-propyl alcohol and using it to clean the bulb after handling it.
> 
> Good test – I would agree with the 20 mins for the 1185 / 3x17670.


----------



## Wattnot

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*



cl0123 said:


> Good _catch_ on the dirty fingers, and indeed that's the primary suspect. However, (trying not to blame my ignorance) I really thought I DID NOT NEED to do that because I cannot see how a soldier would clean their hands, install the bulb, alcohol-swab the bulb, tighten the bezel....


 
Dirt would probably be okay. It's the oils we secrete from our skin (even clean skin) that get on the lamp and when high heat is applied, cause different expansion/contraction characteristics in the spot where you may have touched it. 

Take a look inside a grand piano. Look at the copper wound bass strings. You can almost pull fingerprints as it will be obvious where the strings were touched by a human hand. 

A little rubbing alcohol immediately after unprotected skin contact works wonders.


----------



## DM51

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*




cl0123 said:


> I cannot see how a soldier would clean their hands, install the bulb, alcohol-swab the bulb, tighten the bezel....


A soldier would probably be using a stock MNxx lamp assembly, so he would not actually need to touch the glass of the bulb itself.




cl0123 said:


> Are the OEM MN20 or whichever version bulbs more robust than the aftermarket MN Bi-Pin holder + bulb? How about the pre-assembled LF bulbs? I am asking because I am contemplating to include the WA1185 bulbs into my emergency kit at all. It' super-bright, but so far it does seem to require extra care and precaution to run them.


I would say the Surefire & Lumens Factory MNxx LAs will be more robust, if only because of their rated ~30 hour lifetime. The WA1185 driven by 3x17670 will probably last ~10 hours. Of course those figures are very approximate average life expectancies, and you will get some bulbs failing a lot earlier and others lasting a lot longer. Another possible factor would be that the MN series are designed for this sort of use, whereas the Welch Allyn bulbs are designed for medical use; however the M-series heads are fully shock-protected.


----------



## DM51

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*



AW said:


> One question. Are the flashed 1185 reported here newer batch ? I am asking because I have been running some 1185s that I got couple years ago without any problem ( on 3 x 18650s, 3 x Cs and 6 x 17500s ( 3S2P ) ). I 'll test some recently ordered 1185s to see if they'll  on the same setups. Even a couple coils shorter filament between batches makes a difference.


 I can't answer for the flashed WA1185 bulbs as I haven't had any fail prematurely. The last batch I received from Litho was in April this year IIRC. I've been using them on 3x17670, 3x18650 and 3xC (all your cells, naturally!!) and no problems at all. 

I would guess that being for medical use, they are precision items manufactured to a fairly strict and consistent specification, but I really can't say for sure.


----------



## JNewell

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*



DM51 said:


> whereas the Welch Allyn bulbs are designed for medical use; however the M-series heads are fully shock-protected.


 
Really? What use??? (Curious, not disputing)


----------



## DM51

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*



JNewell said:


> Really? What use??? (Curious, not disputing)


Sorry - I have no idea! But medical instruments are what Welch Allyn specialise in. 

For all I know, they could be the bulbs used to light up the fiber-optic flexi-thing they shove down your throat with a mini-camera on the end to see what you've been eating, lol. Throat-o-scope, or whatever they call it. Maybe it doubles as a Butt-o-scope, if they need to view matters from a different angle. Just so long as they clean it each time, lol.


----------



## lebox97

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*

http://www.welchallyn.com/apps/products/product_category.jsp?catcode=LTG

looks like they have some cool headlamps and such that will need some testing done...




DM51 said:


> Sorry - I have no idea! But medical instruments are what Welch Allyn specialise in.
> 
> For all I know, they could be the bulbs used to light up the fiber-optic flexi-thing they shove down your throat with a mini-camera on the end to see what you've been eating, lol. Throat-o-scope, or whatever they call it. Maybe it doubles as a Butt-o-scope, if they need to view matters from a different angle. Just so long as they clean it each time, lol.


----------



## mdocod

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*

Many of the bulbs we use in flashlight modifications are specified for use in projectors, microscopes, and basic observation lamps in the medical field, along with many research fields. The concept, as I understand it, is that a god wide spectrum light source with predictable consistency is needed for making good observations and drawing conclusions and diagnosis etc etc. A good halogen lamp pushed hard, (down to the 25-100 hours of life expectancy) provides the best lighting for these critical applications. Cost is not a significant consideration in these applications, so low-life, high CRI configurations are desired. Most of the WA bulbs fall into these categories, however, many of the bulbs they sell, are also listed in a grouping on their website for use in "torch" applications. (flashlights). I think they came to realize the duel purpose of many of their compact lamps


----------



## cl0123

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*



DM51 said:


> ...Just so long as they clean it each time, lol.


...with clinical isopropyl alcohol too?  _(pun intended)_
Thanks for organizing and publishing some good (economically more sensible) alternatives in powering the M6. On *Fivemega*'s 3x17670 battery carriers post, there were mentions of 1185, 1331, and lately a 1166 "for long life". I tried but not sure where to find the reviews and characteristics of each. All I could find was some ampere-draw and voltage-to-output numbers, well, and hints of beam shape or tint. Going through *DM51*'s test results again on the first page, I am glad that the used M6 kit I picked up included three WA 1111 bulbs. They turn out to be very useful to me when coupled with *mdocod*'s 2x18650 holder. 

Hopefully, we shall see a part two of this shootout test perhaps with some (1) long-term user reviews (which we are doing right now) and more (2) results with other bulbs. Actually, is there another thread covers other incan instruments like the M3/M4 perhaps? That's what the search function is for. 

Time to go to church to see the real light (see *Brighterisbetter*'s sig line)!

With Aloha, 

Clarence


----------



## PaulZR-1

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*

Hi,
sorry if the question already has been asked. 
but does the HO-M6R run on AWs RCR 123 in a M6 without any problems?
i mean that it starts as a "single click".
two RCR 123 parallel have 750+750 mAh and one 17670 has 1600 mAh. so thats only a difference about 6,3 % or so.
this would be s a good solution for me. then i can use the stock batterieholder.

Thanks
paul


----------



## jumpstat

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*



PaulZR-1 said:


> Hi,
> sorry if the question already has been asked.
> but does the HO-M6R run on AWs RCR 123 in a M6 without any problems?
> i mean that it starts as a "single click".
> two RCR 123 parallel have 750+750 mAh and one 17670 has 1600 mAh. so thats only a difference about 6,3 % or so.
> this would be s a good solution for me. then i can use the stock batterieholder.
> 
> Thanks
> paul



Paul, Welcome to CPF, the LF Ho-M6R is made to be used with 6x3.7v rechargeables. I have that setup and single click usage. No problems reported.

Only reason to use 3x17670 is that you only have 3 batts to recharge compared to 6 x R123a if you are using the stock battery holder.......:naughty:


----------



## PaulZR-1

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*

Hi
thanks for your quick answer :wave:
so i have to think a little bit about what i need!


----------



## Monocrom

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*



PaulZR-1 said:


> Hi
> thanks for your quick answer :wave:
> so i have to think a little bit about what i need!


 
If you want to use the stock battery-carrier, all you need is 6 AW RCR123 cells, an HO-M6R, and 2 or 3 inexpensive chargers so you don't have to wait nearly as long for the cells to charge up.


----------



## mdocod

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*



PaulZR-1 said:


> Hi,
> sorry if the question already has been asked.
> but does the HO-M6R run on AWs RCR 123 in a M6 without any problems?
> i mean that it starts as a "single click".
> two RCR 123 parallel have 750+750 mAh and one 17670 has 1600 mAh. so thats only a difference about 6,3 % or so.
> this would be s a good solution for me. then i can use the stock batterieholder.
> 
> Thanks
> paul



True capacity and label capacity are 2 very different things.

RCR123s tend to be around 550mAH of TRUE capacity, while the 17670s tend to be closer to 1500mAH true capacity. 

The difference between 3 17670s and 6 RCR123s is actually closer to 30%.

Eric


----------



## JNewell

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*



mdocod said:


> True capacity and label capacity are 2 very different things.
> 
> RCR123s tend to be around 550mAH of TRUE capacity, while the 17670s tend to be closer to 1500mAH true capacity.
> 
> The difference between 3 17670s and 6 RCR123s is actually closer to 30%.
> 
> Eric


 
Eric, can you comment on the true difference between a 3x17670 setup and a 2x18650 setup?


----------



## cl0123

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*



PaulZR-1 said:


> but does the HO-M6R run on AWs RCR 123 in a M6 without any problems?


Paul, 

I have no problem with 6xRCR123(AW Protected) either. This is in fact part of my emergency kit, backed up by a dozen primaries. 



Monocrom said:


> ...and 2 or 3 inexpensive chargers so you don't have to wait nearly as long for the cells to charge up.



2 or 3 chargers? :sigh: Hopefully, there will be a 6- to 8-bays lithium-ion charger someday like those Maha chargers for NiMH cells. Since the HO-M6R works with 3x17670, I would also suggest getting a FM battery magazine as well so that you don't have to wait.

Going through the incan compatibility guide again, it seems like the mdocod 2x18650 configuration is not recommended for powering the HO-M6R. Nonetheless, the HO-M6R is still a very versatile lamp module. 

With Aloha, 

Clarence


----------



## Patriot

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*



cl0123 said:


> Going through the incan compatibility guide again, it seems like the mdocod 2x18650 configuration is not recommended for powering the HO-M6R. Nonetheless, the HO-M6R is still a very versatile lamp module.





2x18650's don't provide nearly enough voltage for the HO-M6R. It's a li-ion short. It sure does nicely on 3x17670's though.


----------



## DM51

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*



JNewell said:


> can you comment on the true difference between a 3x17670 setup and a 2x18650 setup?


There is a very clear difference - voltage. 

The cells in both cases are in series, so the 2x18650 pack is 8.4V at full charge (7.2V nominal) while the 3x17670 pack is 12.6V at full charge (10.8V nominal). 

Obviously the actual voltage delivered to the bulb/LA will depend on the state of charge of the cells, the resistance of the light, and the current draw of the bulb itself. 

The HO-M6R is designed for 3-series set-ups, ie 3s2p RCR123 or 3x17670. It will light up on 2x18650, but the voltage with only 2x Li-Ions is too low for it and it will look quite yellow and dim.

_Edit: LOL - Patriot36 got there first, and made the same point just as well and in fewer words!_


----------



## cl0123

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*

According to the specs on LF site, it only says 10.8v, 2.1A. How does one know the actual input voltage range of the HO-M6R bulb? Is there a reference on CPF somewhere?

I have not tried but if 2x18650 can power up an HO-M6R, it just makes it the most versatile bulb in my own M6 setup. 

Battery options:


6 x CR123 (primaries)
6 x RCR123 (rechargeable)
3 x 17670 (rechargeable)
2 x 18650 (rechargeable)

Of course, I do need to actually see the light output produced by the 2x18650 to determine whether it is acceptable. Still yet, just the fact that it will light up and not blowing any bulb is good news to me. 

With Aloha, 

Clarence


----------



## DM51

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*

Clarence... please believe me, the HO-M6R will be way below optimum output on only 2x Li-Ions, as I have said above. It won't be good for the bulb either. You _can_ use it like that, but I would only do so in a true emergency. Sorry, but there just isn't any one single bulb you can satisfactorily use with all the battery options you list.


----------



## JNewell

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*

Thanks - though I was actually thinking in terms not of voltage differences between a 2x and a 3x setup but wondering whether the stated vs. actual mAH difference with the 18650 cells is as great as the difference for the 17670 cells. (???) The ultimate question in the back of my mind (I guess it stayed to far in the back) was really just runtime, but obviously that depends on how much current the bulb is drawing, so...futile question, probably, at the end of the day!



DM51 said:


> There is a very clear difference - voltage.
> 
> The cells in both cases are in series, so the 2x18650 pack is 8.4V at full charge (7.2V nominal) while the 3x17670 pack is 12.6V at full charge (10.8V nominal).
> 
> Obviously the actual voltage delivered to the bulb/LA will depend on the state of charge of the cells, the resistance of the light, and the current draw of the bulb itself.
> 
> The HO-M6R is designed for 3-series set-ups, ie 3s2p RCR123 or 3x17670. It will light up on 2x18650, but the voltage with only 2x Li-Ions is too low for it and it will look quite yellow and dim.
> 
> _Edit: LOL - Patriot36 got there first, and made the same point just as well and in fewer words!_


----------



## mdocod

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*



JNewell said:


> Eric, can you comment on the true difference between a 3x17670 setup and a 2x18650 setup?



I'd be happy to (DM51, if you feel this is to far off topic let me know, I think this is as good a place as any to discuss this)....

Ok... A nice consolidated short answer... umm... yea right 

--------------

*3x17670s:*
For comparisons sake, I'm going to label the "17670" lithium cobalt cell as having a capacity range of 1.25-1.65AH depending on the brand of cell and the load in question, which translates to anywhere from 12 to 18 watt hours of total stored energy in a 3x17670 adapter. (Figures determined by examining SilverFox's shootout) The higher end of the quality range for these cells will be able to power up lamps up into the 30-35W range safely. The WA1185 is right on the limit for even the best cells, and technically over the limit for some cells. I haven't seen a discharge graph for the popular AW17670, but based on the performance of his 17500s, I have no doubt that the AWs are probably closer to the top end of that capacity and capability range. 

If a bulb was found, that could run on this pack at a lower drain rate, like around an amp or less, then the 3x17670 option would have the best watt-hour stored capacity of the 2 battery configuration options being compared here. Under the load of the HO-M6R, a 3x17670 pack will achieve ~16 watt-hours with good cells, or right around 45 minutes runtime. Not bad for ~700 bulb lumens. Considering that this is nearly as bright as the MN21 on CR123s, and runs more than twice as long, it's a very competitive setup that is also very practical. 

One draw-back of the 3x17670 option, is the somewhat limited options for bulbs. Many of the bulbs used in this configuration, are not something that would be considered ideally reliable options, The 1185, 1331, MN60, and MN61 are all options, but very heavily overdriven and at greater risk of instaflash. The WA lamps are also not the most cost friendly bi-pin bulbs out there. The HO-M6R is the only commonly discussed bulb that operates at a conservative balance between drive level, current draw, and bulb life. 

I should point out, that there are probably other bulb options out there that have yet to be found for the 3x17670 setup. I was just looking through the WA bulb lists on their site, and see at least a few that might be worth testing as alternatives in a FM bi-pin>MN socket. 

Another issue of the 3x17670 setup, is dealing with charging 3 cells. While not anywhere near as bad as trying to charge 6 RCR123s, the 3 cells create a bit of a complication. Pack charging can be done, but shouldn't be done for every charge as the cells are likely get get out of balance eventually which can lead some some cells being overcharged. So then the option is to charge them in a cradle charger like the Pila IBC, which means either owning 2 chargers, or waiting for the first pair to finish, then charging the 3rd separately. This makes charging either more expensive or less practical. Personally, I think I would build a custom multi-cell charging bay (all bays in parallel), and rig it up to a higher current single channel/cell charger. 

---------------

*2x18650*
For comparisons sake, I'm going to label the "18650" lithium cobalt cell as having a capacity range of 1.9 - 2.2AH depending on brand of cell and load in question, which translates to anywhere from 14-16 watt-hours of total stored energy in a 2x18650 adapter. (Figures determined by examining SilverFox's shootout)

Here are some advantages and disadvantages mixed into a running thought process here. 

With protected cells, there is no way to compete with the 3x17670>1185 setup output wise. The reason for this is the current limit on the PCB, which makes it pretty hard to activate any bulb with a single click that draws ~4A or more. The highest output options on protected cells that run reliably with a single click activation are the 6V 20W 100 hour lamps out there, like the WA1111 and Osram 64250. These are great lamp options, and many people absolutely love them. They run pretty reliably on protected cobalt chemistry cells while producing brilliant white output, but they are still behind the 1185 by about 35% output. However, these lamps are not pushing the 18650s to the brink of the absolute current limit as far as the cells chemistry is concerned, 35+ minutes runtime is almost guaranteed with good cells. 

The 2x18650 configuration has more available bulb options, and some are much cheaper options. With a FM bi-pin>MN socket, the 64250 can be replaced for about $3 a pop. In a bi-pin adapter, The options aren't bad. There are bulbs from 6V 5W ranging up to 6V 20W that will work, just to name a few, the WA1111, Osram 64250, GE 787. Without the bi-pin socket, there are still a number of options. The MN15, MN16, MN20, HO-M3T and EO-M3T. The wider assortment of known working bulbs for 2x18650s means that you can fine tune a balance of runtime and output and bulb life to your specific needs. There are more options on the lower end of the output range here, bulbs like the MN15 can run for over 100 minutes with good cells. 

Charging 2 18650s is less complicated than charging 3 17670s, requiring just a single common 2-bay li-ion charger. 

With a the 2x18650 setup, those who wish to push into the realm of the 1185 output, can do so by taking a hit on energy storage, and move to a Manganese chemistry cell. These safe chemistry cells don't have the watt-hour capacity of the cobalt cells, but can deliver high current without a hitch, and don't absolutely need protection circuits for safety, so they are very reliable with no internal circuits to fail, and a stable chemistry that can deliver hundreds of abusive cycles. At the higher loads you would use these cells for, they range from ~1AH-1.5AH depending on the brand of cell, load in question, and condition of cells. Or about 7-11 watt-hours of stored energy. With these cells, high power lamps like the 5761 and 64275 can be run, (they don't always fit, I found the 64275 to be a better fit with some grinding on the base of the lamp, some people report 5761s fitting just fine, others, like myself, can't get them to fit at all). Runtime on more powerful lamps like this is usually going to be in the 10-15 minute range, but the output is pretty impressive and very flat. Many people report that there is a lot of noticeable dimming on the 1185 on 3x17670s after a few minutes, On the 2xLiMn setup, those 10-15 minutes are pretty solid bright all the way through, there is some mild dimming but it is almost impossible to distinguish in use. Have to be careful what bulbs you try with these cells though, the lower resistance of the cells when compared to protected cobalt cells means that many bulbs ordinarily well suited for the 2x18650 cobalt cells will just flash on these, I've already flashed a 64250, and suspect the 1111 would also be likely to flash. According to LuxLuthors destructive bulb comparisons, the 64275 and 1185 are going to be very similar in output when comparing these 2 options. LiMn cells also seem to be a way to run the stock MN21 bulb on a rechargeable option. (~15 minutes runtime). The MN21 is overdriven like this so bulb life is hard to predict. 


-------------

That's all I can think of right now. Both have advantages and disadvantages. 

Eric


----------



## cl0123

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*

David,

:twothumbsOf course, I believe, which is also the numero-uno primari-lo benefit of participating in CPF. With that, most likely my curious side would at least light up M6 for a few seconds, just to see. :naughty:

Sigh! Why doesn't WA or other manufacturer make a versatile, yet economical, bi-pin bulb just like that? I am looking forward to seeing more bulb and battery shootout findings on CPF! 1111, 1166, 1331, 1185...  so many numbers to know...


With Aloha, 

Clarence



DM51 said:


> Clarence... please believe me, the HO-M6R will be way below optimum output on only 2x Li-Ions, as I have said above. It won't be good for the bulb either. You _can_ use it like that, but I would only do so in a true emergency. Sorry, but there just isn't any one single bulb you can satisfactorily use with all the battery options you list.


----------



## ICUDoc

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*

mdocod, that is a cool post. Many thanks.


----------



## wquiles

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*



DM51 said:


> Sorry, but there just isn't any one single bulb you can satisfactorily use with all the battery options you list.



Things will be better once the PhD project is completed and we develop a version for the M6 - that is my own personal goal, the variant I am calling the PhD-M6. With the PhD-M6, then yes, you will be able to use a single bulb with "many" battery options, even some that would be impossible to use today. 

Of course, you might have to program/adjust the PhD-M6 so that it knows that battery is being used, but it should work. In fact, I now have a 5V bulb being run on a prototype PhD from a 13V PS - PWM simply works 







Will


----------



## JNewell

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*

Eric, wow - thanks!


----------



## DM51

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*

Great post, Eric - beautifully explained, and since you ask, spot-on-topic IMO. Many thanks!

And a fascinating one from Will, too - the PhD-M6 concept opens up all sorts of exciting possibilities. I'm looking forward to hearing more about it.


----------



## wquiles

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*



DM51 said:


> And a fascinating one from Will, too - the PhD-M6 concept opens up all sorts of exciting possibilities. I'm looking forward to hearing more about it.



We still have work to do, but it is very promising and Alan is making great progress on the software for the Mag platform - definitely exciting times for us who love hotwires :thumbsup:

Will


----------



## PaulZR-1

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*



mdocod said:


> True capacity and label capacity are 2 very different things.
> 
> RCR123s tend to be around 550mAH of TRUE capacity, while the 17670s tend to be closer to 1500mAH true capacity.
> 
> The difference between 3 17670s and 6 RCR123s is actually closer to 30%.
> 
> Eric




Ok, 
this is a BIG difference. I ordered the 17670.

Thanks
Paul


----------



## Tessaiga

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*

OK.. I found one more bulb that works in a M6 running on 3 x 17670...

an *Osram 64410*....

Its a 6V bulb... fits into the KT4 with no problems... 4000 hours life but severely overdriven... with a head to head comparison with a WA1111, it has a slightly more focused spot and appears whiter than the WA1111.

Before anyone asks, sorry... no beamshots... 

I just met a friend... he ran the WA1111 on 2C in a big leef setup using a KT4 head and I ran the 64410 in my M6 with 3 x 17670 and we compared the 2 beams side by side.... 

runtime on the 64410 is about 34 minutes continuously on a full charge... 

a tad short if you ask me...

I also ran into a no model 12V 20W Philips bulb that can fit into the KT4, no problems as well... it's cheap as dirt, only problem is that there is currently no battery configuration that we can run in the M6 that will drive it to its potential.... am thinking that we will need at least 14-18V for us to see any action?? Any viable power source for this bulb....

it is dirt cheap and plentiful over here....


----------



## mdocod

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*

Hi Tessaiga,

I've actually thought about the concept of overdriving 12V lamps in the M6. 

I think the best way to do it would be to get 6 3.7V RCR123 LiMn cells that AW is coming out with soon in a series adapter. 

This would offer up ~22V nominal, and should work on some long life 12V halogens. 

Runtime wouldn't be too impressive, but it might very well be an option none-the-less. 

Or some sort of boost circuit and a pair of LiMn 18650s.


----------



## Tessaiga

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*

Hey mdocod, thanks for your input... what do you think of overdriving the Osram 64410 on 3 x 17670???


----------



## lebox97

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*

me thinks it will 



Tessaiga said:


> Hey mdocod, thanks for your input... what do you think of overdriving the Osram 64410 on 3 x 17670???


----------



## [email protected]

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*

If you want the absolute best from your HO-M6R, here is the formula:

A 3xC BigLeef with 3xAW C cells on a HO-M6R.

For an even better setup, use the "C" neck on the BigLeef.
Then use the old 2.5 inch turbohead. (for medium to long range)
If you want maximum throw, use the old 3 inch turbohead. (for long to really long range)

Of course, you can get a brighter bi-pin lamp setup on a BigLeef through overdrive (bright, but unstable). But you can try this setup if you have all the components already.

Another approach would be: A 3x18650 body with a "C" head, use the old 2.5 or 3 inch head.

Cheers, :laughing:

Mark


----------



## shomie911

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*

I have a FiveMega 2 x 18650 body and I'm about to buy a KT2 for it.

Am I safe to assume that this is basically the same thing as the M6 with a 2 x 18650 battery holder?

I'm planning on buying some AW IMR LiMN 18650 cells when they come out soon. 

What would be the brightest (without sacrificing bulb life) setup I could get?


----------



## mdocod

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*



shomie911 said:


> I have a FiveMega 2 x 18650 body and I'm about to buy a KT2 for it.
> 
> Am I safe to assume that this is basically the same thing as the M6 with a 2 x 18650 battery holder?
> 
> I'm planning on buying some AW IMR LiMN 18650 cells when they come out soon.
> 
> What would be the brightest (without sacrificing bulb life) setup I could get?



The only main difference between that setup and the M6 with 2x18650 adapter is going to be these 2 things:
1. Body style different (obviously)
2. No shock isolation.

The KT1/2 will take all the same lamps that the Millennium turbohead will, but just doesn't have the built in "cushion" of the larger millennium series head. 

---------------------------------------

As for what bulbs to run, it's a tough call. So far I'm really liking the 64275 (requires some grinding to fit). It has survived for awhile. But I have no idea how long it will keep on going. It's definitely driven nice and hard on a pair of Emoli cells, and the discharge charts I've seen for the up-and-coming AW IMR cells appear to be even better than the Emoli cells, which may push this bulb over the edge. 

Eric


----------



## shomie911

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*



mdocod said:


> The only main difference between that setup and the M6 with 2x18650 adapter is going to be these 2 things:
> 1. Body style different (obviously)
> 2. No shock isolation.
> 
> The KT1/2 will take all the same lamps that the Millennium turbohead will, but just doesn't have the built in "cushion" of the larger millennium series head.
> 
> ---------------------------------------
> 
> As for what bulbs to run, it's a tough call. So far I'm really liking the 64275 (requires some grinding to fit). It has survived for awhile. But I have no idea how long it will keep on going. It's definitely driven nice and hard on a pair of Emoli cells, and the discharge charts I've seen for the up-and-coming AW IMR cells appear to be even better than the Emoli cells, which may push this bulb over the edge.
> 
> Eric



I might just use my AW 18650 cells with a FiveMega MN bi-pin adapter and a WA1111.

I have to find a Bi-pin adapter first, but I think that would be a nice and bright little package.

Here's a picture of the light I'm working with just in case any one wanted to see.

Just need to add the KT1/2 turbohead and it will be perfect:


----------



## cl0123

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*

*Shomie911*, 

*GenEric808* happens to be selling a C-compatible Turbo Head KT2-BK that perhaps you would like to check out. You're talking about the 9P or FM 2x18650 black looking flashlight on the right, I assume? 

By the way, although the batteries and lamp module configurations resemble the _M6 Shootout_ *DM51* put together on page 1 of this thread, the resulting beam pattern may differ depending on the reflector that you will install. Hope you can find the right gears soon. 

With a 9P bezel and reflector on, your WA1111 may emit a true _warm wall of light_ that I crave. The parabolic M6 reflectors are great in redirecting and focusing the output to really reach out, but other applications may call for different patterns. 

With Aloha, 

Clarence



shomie911 said:


> Just need to add the KT1/2 turbohead and it will be perfect:


----------



## shomie911

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*



cl0123 said:


> *Shomie911*,
> 
> *GenEric808* happens to be selling a C-compatible Turbo Head KT2-BK that perhaps you would like to check out. You're talking about the 9P or FM 2x18650 black looking flashlight on the right, I assume?
> 
> By the way, although the batteries and lamp module configurations resemble the _M6 Shootout_ *DM51* put together on page 1 of this thread, the resulting beam pattern may differ depending on the reflector that you will install. Hope you can find the right gears soon.
> 
> With a 9P bezel and reflector on, your WA1111 may emit a true _warm wall of light_ that I crave. The parabolic M6 reflectors are great in redirecting and focusing the output to really reach out, but other applications may call for different patterns.
> 
> With Aloha,
> 
> Clarence



Yep, GenEric808's KT2 was the one I was in the process of buying for my build. I'm just waiting for a return PM. :twothumbs Thanks for the help though!

I didn't think it was possible to use the FiveMega MN Bi-pin adpater on a P series bezel?

I'm going to be using it solely with the KT2 though because I'm going to be using it as my "reach out and touch somebody" flashlight.

I already have a 3D Aspherical Maglite that I built and it outthrows everything I've ever seen so far, but it's pretty big and bulky. The KT2 and 2 x 18650 body will be a nice light to have when I need throw but size is a concern.


----------



## DM51

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*

Guys, let's keep this thread for the *M6 only* please - if you want to discuss other set-ups, please do it in a different thread.


----------



## wquiles

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*



DM51 said:


> Guys, let's keep this thread for the *M6 only* please - if you want to discuss other set-ups, please do it in a different thread.



+1


----------



## mwaldron

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*

So back to the M6...

The giddy feeling I get when I click on my of my M6 with an 1185 on 3x17670's still hasn't gotten old but I think I need to look at a more practical solution now. The 1185 is too bright for many applications (I can just see you all going :huh2:at that comment) and I'd like some additional run time and something that would be a bit less brutal on my batteries.

Planning ahead for this when I bought my 1185's from Litho I also picked up some 1331's. I popped one in my spare bi-pin holder and tried it...  They weren't even fresh off the charge batteries (11.0v pack voltage). So I figured must be a bad bulb. I put in another, this time I tested it with my bench supply and brought it up slowly. I got it up to 12v and everything was OK so I decided to install it in my M6.  So I figured I'd come get some advice.

What's reasonably bright (we'll call anything that can be compared to MN21 reasonably bright), reasonably reliable, and long lasting on a 3x17670 setup? I'm aware of the LF bulb which is probably the top option, but is there any bi-pin?

I also have a couple of mdocod's excellent looking 2x18650 adapters that I still havn't used so I have some options there if there is a better fit in the 2x arena.


----------



## Gunnerboy

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*



mwaldron said:


> Planning ahead for this when I bought my 1185's from Litho I also picked up some 1331's. I popped one in my spare bi-pin holder and tried it...  They weren't even fresh off the charge batteries (11.0v pack voltage). So I figured must be a bad bulb. I put in another, this time I tested it with my bench supply and brought it up slowly. I got it up to 12v and everything was OK so I decided to install it in my M6.  So I figured I'd come get some advice.
> 
> What's reasonably bright (we'll call anything that can be compared to MN21 reasonably bright), reasonably reliable, and long lasting on a 3x17670 setup? I'm aware of the LF bulb which is probably the top option, but is there any bi-pin?



That's discouraging when you blow two bulbs just like that.

1331 w/3x17670 is my favorite setup, having also used the 1185. About 50% more runtime, plus it's nearly as bright (screaming white).

Try an NTC, or see if Greg can fix you up.

Cheers,
Gary


----------



## cl0123

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*



mwaldron said:


> ...also picked up some 1331's. I popped one in my spare bi-pin holder and tried it...  They weren't even fresh off the charge batteries (11.0v pack voltage). So I figured must be a bad bulb. I put in another, this time I tested it with my bench supply and brought it up slowly. I got it up to 12v and everything was OK so I decided to install it in my M6.  So I figured I'd come get some advice.
> ...I also have a couple of mdocod's excellent looking 2x18650 adapters that I still havn't used so I have some options there if there is a better fit in the 2x arena.


1331 insta-flash incident? You don't say! I just placed an order with Litho last weekend and will be getting some 1166, in addition to the 1185 that I blew out on a one-per-weekend frequency :shakehead. I remember looking at the *Fivemega*'s 3x17670 M6 magazine thread and seeing "*or WA1331 in same socket as LOLA or WA1166 for long bulb life application*". I was thinking about durability (=costs too) probably and thus chose the 1166 instead of the 1331. Once I get the bulbs from Litho, I will sure report back. *mwaldron*, were you using protected or unprotected 17670 cells? I blew my first 1185 by switching from protected to freshly charged unprotected AW 17670 cells. 

Try an WA1111 using Eric's 2x18650 magazine. I have one standby in my M6 at home. The only complaint is that an 1111 costs $4 more than an 1185. 



DM51 said:


> Guys, let's keep this thread for the *M6 only* please - if you want to discuss other set-ups, please do it in a different thread.


David, 

Thanks for re-focusing this excellent thread.

With Aloha, 

Clarence


----------



## mdocod

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*

In post #215 above, I grouped the 1331 with bulbs I felt were heavily overdriven and with rather unpredictable behavior. Hearing your experience confirms that my guess was correct (I haven't heard hardly any reports of people running 1331 with success or failure, so I had nothing to go on but looking at the bulb specs and making an educated guess). Your experience, unfortunately, confirms my suspicions that so many of the bulb options for the 3x17670 are not the most reliable (when used in this configuration) at best. I think at this point, the HO-M6R is probably looking like the best bet for a more conservative option. 

I too have found myself questioning my use of the 64275 in my M6, (it's on par with the 1185 for output, and it's remarkable), but with a runtime of like 10 minutes or so, and a level of output that in close quarters actually feels like I am going to light the walls on fire, I find myself second guessing the use of this lamp. On a few occasions I have switched out to a little bi-pin lamp from DX or KD (can't remember which it came from, not sure if they sell have em anymore). It's only running at ~1.3A, gives about an hour on Emoli cells, or about 90 mins on AW cells, produces a great tight beam and output stays nice and steady, but then all the fun factor is gone. So I quickly go back to the 64275. I'm in the process of putting together a number of other smaller configurations based around surefire P compatible parts and LED modules and li-ion cells so that I have more options that I can carry on my person that will have a more conservative balance between output and runtime. This way I can keep the M6 setup with the 64275, and reserve that for when I REALLY need to get some serious lumens projected 

Eric


----------



## mwaldron

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*



cl0123 said:


> *mwaldron*, were you using protected or unprotected 17670 cells? I blew my first 1185 by switching from protected to freshly charged unprotected AW 17670 cells.



I was using AW Protected 17670's. They probably have 10 cycles on them now. Maybe I'll try a 3rd bulb when I get home, if they don't work in my M6 I might as well  them all because they're not useful to me anywhere else.



cl0123 said:


> Try an WA1111 using Eric's 2x18650 magazine. I have one standby in my M6 at home. The only complaint is that an 1111 costs $4 more than an 1185.



I need to make an order pretty soon anyway, I'll try for some 1111's and 18650's. Both Litho and AW can get more money that way


----------



## mdocod

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*

On the cost issue of the 1111...

I know the 1111 gets a lot of praise for producing a good beam and having good efficiency, but an alternative, coming in at a price of around $3 per bulb is the Osram 64250. 

They are both 6V 20W 100 hour bulb.

I have no compared them side by side, so I can't say whether there is something about the 1111 that makes it worth an extra ~$8 on top of the cost of a 64250.

My 64250 didn't last but a few turn-on/off cycles on a pair of Emoli cells, but on a pair of AW protected cells I would imagine that the results would be better with more voltage drop. 

Eric


----------



## DM51

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*



mdocod said:


> I have no compared them side by side, so I can't say whether there is something about the 1111 that makes it worth an extra ~$8 on top of the cost of a 64250.


I have compared them under a high-power magnifying loupe. The filaments seem identical, and in LuxLuthor's Destructive Incan Bulb Tests the results for the 2 bulbs are pretty well identical too. I would be prepared to bet no-one would be able to tell one from the other in actual use. 

The only difference I can see is in physical size - the 64250 is larger. I haven't had one that fits through the KT4 hole, but most others have, indicating variations in the Osram batches. Certainly the price of the 64250 is very much better.


----------



## cl0123

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*



DM51 said:


> *SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*
> 
> WA 1111 vs. WA 1185
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I hope this thread is some help to those deciding what to run in their own M6.


mwaldron, 

Look at the images above again. It all boils down to usage. In an outdoor environment where the target is distant, the WA1185 + 3x17670 does make a visible difference. I confirmed that by aiming from the ground towards an 18th floor penthouse with a white/beige walls. There was indeed a visual difference at least in tint. The WA1185 shows a whiter wall and the target appears to be better illuminated. [Touch wood]My one and only last 1185 has been good for the last two weeks in a roll.  On another M6, I also have the WA1111 powered by 2x18650 set up since three weeks ago and receiving about the same amount of light time. Hope none of them will blow ever again, but then by tracking their lifespan I will probably get a good idea on their longevity (in my hands) soon. [/Touch wood]




mwaldron said:


> I need to make an order pretty soon anyway, I'll try for some 1111's and 18650's. Both Litho and AW can get more money that way


Thanks for contributing to the economy? Hope there is a tax exemption category called M6.


----------



## BSBG

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*

Let me post a couple of data points...

A 1331 on 3x AW Protected 17670 is my favorite setup. The beam shape is a broad, even hotspot, similar to an MN21 . No insta flash with a recent Litho shipment. I love the 1185 but feel it is too much to ask from these cells. An MN60 is no slouch either and does not draw too much current.

I have tried both the 1111 and 64250 and they are, for all intents an purposes, almost identical. The 64250 seems to have a few more artifacts, but that might just be my not having it shimmed perfectly.


----------



## cl0123

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*



DM51 said:


> The only difference I can see is in physical size - the 64250 is larger. I haven't had one that fits through the KT4 hole, but most others have, indicating variations in the Osram batches. Certainly the price of the 64250 is very much better.



DM51, 

Your image of the oversized 64250 adjacent to the WA bulbs is somehow stuck in my head. However, the Osram does receive quite a few mentions here and there especially by Eric. I do not know where to find this kind of bulbs locally (autoparts stores?), but hopefully, I will find some slim down versions of the bulb. Certainly, I will bring my M6 turbo head along to test fit before buying any. 

With Aloha, 

Clarence


----------



## mdocod

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*

I ordered my 64250 from bulbconnection. Only problem there is shipping costs are a minimum of around $8 (IIRC) even if you are only ordering one bulb, so best thing to do is buy a handful of lamps all at once, distributing that shipping cost over many bulbs (the shipping cost doesn't change much from 1 to 10 bulbs, or maybe more for all I know). The 64250 I received fit very freely, it was all of the philips lamps I received that did not fit. Strange stuff. Nice thing about bulbconnection is that they always ship the brand you order, so you never have to worry about getting what the industry might consider to be an "equivalent" from another maker. Might make it easier to determine a brand that fits....

On a side note (that I may have already mentioned here I can't recall ATM) another conservative option bulb is the GE 787. It runs good on my Emoli cells, but I haven't tried it on AW protected so not sure if it would run as bright, (should be close, as it's a lower current bulb). 

Eric


----------



## Tessaiga

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*

Osram 64410
Osram 64410
Osram 64410

running on 3 x 17670.... no one tried this??? it is at least as bright if not brighter and whiter than a WA1111 and its a 4000 hour bulb... with a continuous 34 min runtime.... :thumbsup:

Thoughts anyone????


----------



## cl0123

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*

"_64410/OSRA_ 10W 6V G4 BASE AXIAL STYLE FILAMENT"

Do tell. But first, what does "6V G4 Base" mean? Does that mean it will fit onto the FM MN Bi-Pin with an input voltage of 6V? Does 3x17670 push out too much voltage for this?

Any image of your set up? US price seems to suggest $3 a bulb. 

With Aloha, 

Clarence


----------



## zubee

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*

I just met a friend... he ran the WA1111 on 2C in a big leef setup using a KT4 head and I ran the 64410 in my M6 with 3 x 17670 and we compared the 2 beams side by side....


----------



## BSBG

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*



zubee said:


> I just met a friend... he ran the WA1111 on 2C in a big leef setup using a KT4 head and I ran the 64410 in my M6 with 3 x 17670 and we compared the 2 beams side by side....




And your conclusion is?


----------



## jumpstat

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*

Would AW's new 6xIMR16340 cells in MB20 be better or stick to 3xP17670 in FM's to run with WA1185 in M6?

What would be the estimated runtime of such a setup if it is possible? Thanks.


----------



## mwaldron

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*

I got home today and decided to fire up my last 2 1331 bulbs. Turns out the first I tried works! No  this time!

Anyway, I see what you mean by a different beam shape. 

This should tide me over for a while till I get my LF order done.

Thanks for mentioning that AW had IMR16340 batteries! Those have me really excited for A2, L2, and maybe M6/MN20 use...


----------



## mdocod

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*



jumpstat said:


> Would AW's new 6xIMR16340 cells in MB20 be better or stick to 3xP17670 in FM's to run with WA1185 in M6?
> 
> What would be the estimated runtime of such a setup if it is possible? Thanks.



Probably not, with a true capacity of ~0.35-0.4AH (per cell, I know it's doubled) at this load, I think you would find that the 6xIMR setup would have less runtime, but would also likely be more apt to pop the 1185. 

Eric


----------



## mwaldron

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*



mwaldron said:


> I got home today and decided to fire up my last 2 1331 bulbs. Turns out the first I tried works! No  this time!



Spoke too soon. I got some time on the bulb, but  after it rested for a few minutes.

Maybe I shouldn't have Pro-Gold'ed my M6... I always thought that stuff was snake oil...


----------



## BSBG

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*

I tseems yesterday was a bad day for 1331s - I popped two using a new battery holder I bought on B/S/T .

The second one went even after several minutes of runtime on an MN60


----------



## jumpstat

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*



mdocod said:


> Probably not, with a true capacity of ~0.35-0.4AH (per cell, I know it's doubled) at this load, I think you would find that the 6xIMR setup would have less runtime, but would also likely be more apt to pop the 1185.
> 
> Eric


Thanks for the heads up.:candle:


----------



## mdocod

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*



Tessaiga said:


> Osram 64410
> Osram 64410
> Osram 64410
> 
> running on 3 x 17670.... no one tried this??? it is at least as bright if not brighter and whiter than a WA1111 and its a 4000 hour bulb... with a continuous 34 min runtime.... :thumbsup:
> 
> Thoughts anyone????



I looked it up on Osram.com, appears to be an axial filament 6V 4000hr 110lm bulb.

Do you like the beam of the axial filament setup? I think it's neat on the 64275 

By what calculations I know, the bulb shouldn't be surviving that overdrive, but I have found that many "long-life" halogens don't seem to follow any rhyme or reasons on what they will handle overdrive wise, they just require experimentation to see what happens. 

In theory, with that bulb, you should be making ~600 bulb lumen, (400 torch lumen) with a power consumption around 26.5 watts. 

Eric


----------



## Tessaiga

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*



mdocod said:


> I looked it up on Osram.com, appears to be an axial filament 6V 4000hr 110lm bulb.
> 
> Do you like the beam of the axial filament setup? I think it's neat on the 64275
> 
> By what calculations I know, the bulb shouldn't be surviving that overdrive, but I have found that many "long-life" halogens don't seem to follow any rhyme or reasons on what they will handle overdrive wise, they just require experimentation to see what happens.
> 
> In theory, with that bulb, you should be making ~600 bulb lumen, (400 torch lumen) with a power consumption around 26.5 watts.
> 
> Eric


 
Hi Eric, thanks for chiming in with your thoughts.. the beam shape is elongated, but defininitely useable... I can definitely see myself using that beam...

You are right in saying that the bulb should not survive that amount of overdrive.. in fact I was just trying my luck since I know that longer life bulbs typically have higher tolerances for overdrive...

I'm not sure how you arrive at the calculations... I have problems calculating even simple stuff like P=IV.... :thinking:

Anyway, head to head with a WA1111, the 64410 appears whiter and just a tad more penetrating sort of beam tahn the WA1111.... brightness wise... rather close to call...


----------



## mdocod

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*

The calculations are rough estimates, real testing is the only way to arrive at a true conclusion, but based on the study of the destructive incan charts, I think many of us have come to agree that for lumen re-rating on most halogens, a formula as follows will give a reasonably good estimate:

[(Va/Vd)^2.9]xLd=L

where Va is applied voltage, Vd is design voltage, Ld is design lumens, and L is re-rated lumens. 

The use of an exponent is the closest thing we have to closely matching the behavior of bulbs, but the true output does not follow that perfect logarithmic scale that the equation produces. The use of ~2.9 as the exponent generates conservative results that tend not to be way over estimated, but some bulbs are closer to ~3-3.3, while others are ~2.8 or lower. 

For current the formula is the same, but with 0.55 as the exponent. current instead of lumens.


----------



## pete7226

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*

Would running 3x18650 make a difference in how hard the cells are being pushed vs 3x17670? How about a bump in output? I know this is regarding the m6 body, but I've been wondering for awhile if getting a Leef 3x18650 w/1185 is worth it.


----------



## william lafferty

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*



pete7226 said:


> Would running 3x18650 make a difference in how hard the cells are being pushed vs 3x17670? How about a bump in output? I know this is regarding the m6 body, but I've been wondering for awhile if getting a Leef 3x18650 w/1185 is worth it.





If you are thinking of the Leef setup, why not go with 3 x C in the BigLeef configuration. The C li-ion, as I recall, gives you about 3300 mah as opposed to about 2200 for the 18650. Have to be careful with either setup not to flash the bulb, however. Lux's chart indicates that the 1185 will flash at 12.3 v.


----------



## pete7226

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*

The Bigleef is just too fat for my liking, any info on the 18650's being better suited for the 1185 over the 17670 as far as load goes?


----------



## Patriot

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*



pete7226 said:


> The Bigleef is just too fat for my liking, any info on the 18650's being better suited for the 1185 over the 17670 as far as load goes?




Either combination of cells has sufficient voltage to potentially insta-flash the bulbs. The main difference is going to come in the form of 2100mah additional capacity for the 18650's.


----------



## mdocod

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*

The higher capacity 18650s are very much more well suited to drive an 1185, but not without the increased risk of instaflash that comes with having larger cells. Terminate charging at ~4.10V and that should help.

Eric


----------



## Monocrom

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*



william lafferty said:


> If you are thinking of the Leef setup, why not go with 3 x C in the BigLeef configuration. The C li-ion, as I recall, gives you about 3300 mah as opposed to about 2200 for the 18650. Have to be careful with either setup not to flash the bulb, however. Lux's chart indicates that the 1185 will flash at 12.3 v.


 
A good idea. But Lighthound is currently out of tailcaps for the BigLeef system. Every other part is in stock.... except the tailcaps.


----------



## cl0123

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*



fivemega said:


> Please use with approprite bulb assembly like WA1185 in MN bi pin socket as HOLA or WA1331 in same socket as* LOLA or WA1166 for long bulb life application.
> *



:twothumbs No issue with testing the WA1166, which is a new bulb to me. 

I saw mentions of the WA1166 on FM's 4th run B/S/T thread and decided to give it a try. 
WA1166 + 3x17670 AW Protected lit up with no issue and I followed the advices from other CPF enthusiasts to gently clean the bulb with isopropyl alcohol each time before inserting it into the turbo head. 

Although it's a LOLA, the output is still plenty bright to my eyes. Shining the beams on a white wall 15 feet away side by side with a WA1185, the differences in the center-spot intensities are slight but visible. I see that WA1166 can make quite a good lamp for indoor uses since the resulting glares are actually not as overpowering as the WA1185. However, the differences in the spill is quite significant, with the WA1185 literally "spilling" a lot more useable soft beams to illuminate the surrounding areas. 

So far, for my M6 uses:


1185 is still the brightest.
HO-M6R is the most versatile.
1166 is a good LOLA alternative to the 1185 since it also runs on 3x17670.

With Aloha, 

Clarence


----------



## mwaldron

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*

What is the current draw of the 1166? It's a new bulb to me also!

Since I insta-flashed all of my 1331's (Ok, one took a day before it died) I have no long-life alternative. I'd like something that could last a long time on 3x17670's.


----------



## BSBG

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*



mwaldron said:


> What is the current draw of the 1166? It's a new bulb to me also!
> 
> .



Around 2 amps - see LuxLuthor's test thread:

https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/179748


----------



## tumblingdice

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*

This entire thread is a brilliant read from start to finish. I've got an M6 and am thinking of using the HO-M6R with the 3x17670 if Fivemega will only make more of these adapters available. Does anyone know how well mdocod's 2x18650 battery adapter would compare for output, runtime & bulb durability?


----------



## tumblingdice

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*

Please ignore my last post. On reviewing info in thread have just found the answer at https://www.candlepowerforums.com/posts/2655255&highlight=2x18650#post2655255. Lots to absorb in this thread.


----------



## Wattnot

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*



tumblingdice said:


> This entire thread is a brilliant read from start to finish. I've got an M6 and am thinking of using the HO-M6R with the 3x17670 if Fivemega will only make more of these adapters available. Does anyone know how well mdocod's 2x18650 battery adapter would compare for output, runtime & bulb durability?


 
I believe the 2 18650's would be brighter if you're talking about using the stock MN21 with the 2 18650's. 

I have some beamshots in a for sale thread of mine in the Marketplace section. I believe I put those same shots a few pages ago in this thread too.

I can't speak for runtime as I'm using Emoli type cells and they have a lower capacity. I believe my runtime is about 18 minutes but I have not carefully measured it. If you use regular 18650's, it would be longer but you will strain the cells from the high current draw and might run into the double tap scenario.

There are many, many options available for both the two cell and three cell rechargeables but I really like being able to use the stock lamps the way I am.


----------



## ToeMoss

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*

Has anyone had success solving their M6 double-tap problem?

I've got the WA 1185 setup with the (3) 17670 cell+ FiveMega battery holder.

Battery pack is producing 12.36 V
When lit, lamp is drawing 3.1 A

Can someone tell me:
Is the voltage too high?
Is the lamp drawing the proper amperage?
Could the source of the WA 1185 lamp be an issue?

I've experimented with the different components to try and isolate the problem. Bypassing the battery holder, the switch, and the lamp holder (independently and together) have had no effect, double-tapping is required under all configurations. 
Batteries are the new AW 17670 cells with the "+Power" graphic.

Any Ideas?
I really hate double-tapping, I'd be so grateful for help finding a solution.

Thanks!

Tom


----------



## Daniel_sk

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*

I had the same problem on my M6, but I sold it a while ago. One thing you could try - clean any grease on threads, maybe it will help. I usually put a lot of nyogel on flashlight threads, maybe this can lead to a higher resistance? It's worth a try...


----------



## fivemega

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*



ToeMoss said:


> I really hate double-tapping, I'd be so grateful for help finding a solution.
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> Tom



*One of your batteries is bad. New battery does not mean healthy battery.*


----------



## ToeMoss

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*

Thanks FiveMega,
I'll order new batteries and find the culprit.


----------



## monkeyboy

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*

I agree that the batteries are the most likely culprit. It's probably just one protection circuit on one battery that is not operating within spec. 

BTW, *Higher* resistance in the circuit would make this *less* likely to happen.


----------



## PapikAldo

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*

Excelent work !!!
I'll try some mods with my SF M6 CB
CPF rules !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## Solscud007

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*

If I use mdocod’s 2x18650 holder can i use 1x18650 and 2x RCR123 to get three cells and run a MN61?


----------



## mdocod

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*

no. 

The MN61 on 3xli-ion runs ~2.9 amps. 

For an RCR123, that would be about a 6-10C discharge rate. Lithium Cobalt cell manufactures recommend discharge rates of no higher than 1.5-2C for most of their cells. 

Protected cells wouldn't even allow it....

You could theoretically do it with 2xIMR16340 cells with an 18650... but please understand that I am not recommending this configuration. There are a number of reasons I don't think it would be a great idea. 

Eric



Solscud007 said:


> If I use mdocod’s 2x18650 holder can i use 1x18650 and 2x RCR123 to get three cells and run a MN61?


----------



## Solscud007

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*

Ok, just checking thanks.


----------



## alschmid

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*

How would the IMR 2x18650 bulb life/run time differ with the MN21?


----------



## wquiles

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*

I started a thread regarding a rechargeable, regulated driver/pack for the M6 which also uses soft-start in the Electronics sub-forum. It would be great if you can stop by and give your feedback as to what you would like to see in this project for the M6 

*DM51* my apologies if this is considered off-topic or a distraction to your main thread.

Will


----------



## mdocod

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*



alschmid said:


> How would the IMR 2x18650 bulb life/run time differ with the MN21?



Output jumps to about 750+ torch lumen (in surefire-ish output terms), bulb life drops to a totally approximated 5-10 hours (assuming the cells are rested before use). Runtime is somewhere around 15-18 minutes.


----------



## DM51

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*



wquiles said:


> I started a thread regarding a rechargeable, regulated driver/pack for the M6 which also uses soft-start in the Electronics sub-forum. It would be great if you can stop by and give your feedback as to what you would like to see in this project for the M6
> 
> *DM51* my apologies if this is considered off-topic or a distraction to your main thread.
> 
> Will


Will - this looks a very exciting project. Far from it being off-topic or a distraction, I've added a link in your post, so people can find your thread more easily.


----------



## greenpea76

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*



mdocod said:


> Output jumps to about 750+ torch lumen (in surefire-ish output terms), bulb life drops to a totally approximated 5-10 hours (assuming the cells are rested before use). Runtime is somewhere around 15-18 minutes.


 

Argghhhhhh.......I just insta-flashed my MN21 with the IMR18650's. The total voltage was at 8.16 volts in the holder. The cells had been resting for 5 hours. What does this mean? Was my bulb too old?


----------



## mdocod

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*

It might mean that IMR18650s can't be used with the MN21, as I had said previously, I have only tested this setup on Emoli brand LiMn cells, and most of the time my pack has been rested for 12-24 hours or more before firing up the bulb. But my pack usually measured ~8.2V open circuit before firing up. 

Me and a few other people have tested it with Emoli cells, which are the same chemistry but made in a different factory with slightly different performance characteristics. I have not had an instaflash and a few others have had reported success as well. You may be the first person to try the AW brand of LiMn cells in this configuration, so you have tried something new.... and it may have failed horribly. 

I'll take your instaflash into consideration for future reference.... consider the bulb a sacrifice for the greater good of flashaholism


----------



## pete7226

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*

Would running the 1185 on 3xAW C cells cause a problem? What would run-time be?


----------



## DM51

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*



greenpea76 said:


> Argghhhhhh.......I just insta-flashed my MN21 with the IMR18650's. The total voltage was at 8.16 volts in the holder. The cells had been resting for 5 hours. What does this mean? Was my bulb too old?


Resting lithium chemistry cells has no effect. This only makes a difference with NiMH cells. 

You get less voltage sag with IMR (LiMn) cells than with conventional LiIon (LiCo) cells. Higher voltage means a higher current delivered through the bulb filament, which means brighter output but a (sometimes very) short bulb life.


----------



## DM51

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*



pete7226 said:


> Would running the 1185 on 3xAW C cells cause a problem? What would run-time be?


Some people have reported 1185s flashing on 3x 17670, so the voltage on 3x AW C cells will hold up more, making flashing more likely. Having said that, I run a 1185 in a BigLeef setup without any problems. 

Runtime can be worked out by dividing the capacity of the cells by the amperage. With C cells, the capacity is 3,300 mAh, and the 1185 draws ~3.35A. The run-time is therefore _in theory_ ~1 hour. However, you should never run LiIon cells down to empty - don't use more than 80% of capacity. To stay on the careful side I would restrict use to 45 mins from full charge. If you decide to charge to only 4.1V to lessen the risk of flashing the bulb, this will reduce the capacity by a further ~10%, so reckon on perhaps 40 mins run-time.


----------



## mdocod

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*



DM51 said:


> Resting lithium chemistry cells has no effect. This only makes a difference with NiMH cells.
> 
> You get less voltage sag with IMR (LiMn) cells than with conventional LiIon (LiCo) cells. Higher voltage means a higher current delivered through the bulb filament, which means brighter output but a (sometimes very) short bulb life.



Resting LiCo cells has very little to no effect unless they are older cells. However LiMn cells drop about 0.1V after 12 hours of resting from a full charge and settle ~4.1V instead of holding that 4.20V we are so familiar with. I've seen it with both Emoli and AW IMR16340 cells and I'm not the only one to have made this observation...

Eric


----------



## DM51

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*

Thanks, Eric - that's something I have missed and useful to know.


----------



## greenLED

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*

Anybody else running Pila cells with Eric's 2x18650 holder and the 1111 bulb?

I can't make the darned bulb light up! 

I've checked all voltages and continuities separately, and things are where they should be. However, once I try to put everything together, the bulb doesn't light up. 

Actually, that's not entirely true, I've gotten it to light up (more like flash) a couple of times by just placing the tailcap on the battery tube and fiddling with it a bit. Unfortunately, I can't get it to work consistently with the tailcap fully in place. I've also tried by-passing the tailcap and that didn't work either.


I'm starting to think there's something wrong with the cells (although they work fine in my U2 and charge normally). They're somewhat older cells (older than 2 yrs). The protection circuit might not handle the current?

What's the current load on 2x18650 and the 1111?

Do I need newly made 18650's with more up-to-date protection circuits? What say ye?

:thanks:


----------



## zx7dave

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*



ToeMoss said:


> Has anyone had success solving their M6 double-tap problem?
> 
> I've got the WA 1185 setup with the (3) 17670 cell+ FiveMega battery holder.
> 
> Battery pack is producing 12.36 V
> When lit, lamp is drawing 3.1 A
> 
> Can someone tell me:
> Is the voltage too high?
> Is the lamp drawing the proper amperage?
> Could the source of the WA 1185 lamp be an issue?
> 
> I've experimented with the different components to try and isolate the problem. Bypassing the battery holder, the switch, and the lamp holder (independently and together) have had no effect, double-tapping is required under all configurations.
> Batteries are the new AW 1767 cells with the "+Power" graphic.
> 
> Any Ideas?
> I really hate double-tapping, I'd be so grateful for help finding a solution.
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> Tom





Tom - I am running the exacxt same setup and have never had to double click.. Are you using AW batteries?


----------



## mdocod

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*

Hi GreenLED!

The 1111 draws about 3.7A! 

As far as I know, AWs 18650s are the only protected 18650s on the market that are going to reliably light that sucker up... You mentioned that you have got a few flashes out of it will installing the tailcap... I had another customer with the exact same problem and exact same experience who was trying to use some ultrafire cells that didn't quite have the PCB to handle the load. He switched to AWs and it worked perfectly. 

While waiting for some AW cells... you might try running the MN20 for the time being... while not the brightest, it should help determine if there is anything else wrong with the setup, and give you a chance to play with the M6 while you wait 

Eric


----------



## ToeMoss

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*



zx7dave said:


> Tom - I am running the exacxt same setup and have never had to double click.. Are you using AW batteries?



Yes, I was using the AW protected 17670 batteries.
I replaced the batteries with new ones and the double tap problem has gone away. 
I tried to identify the offending cell by using the original three cells one at a time with two of the new cells, turn out that if I use any of the three original cells, the double tapping is necessary. 
I believe the protection circuit on those cells must be faulty, I have sent them back to AW for replacement.


----------



## greenLED

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*



mdocod said:


> Hi GreenLED!
> 
> The 1111 draws about 3.7A!
> 
> As far as I know, AWs 18650s are the only protected 18650s on the market that are going to reliably light that sucker up... You mentioned that you have got a few flashes out of it will installing the tailcap... I had another customer with the exact same problem and exact same experience who was trying to use some ultrafire cells that didn't quite have the PCB to handle the load. He switched to AWs and it worked perfectly.
> 
> While waiting for some AW cells... you might try running the MN20 for the time being... while not the brightest, it should help determine if there is anything else wrong with the setup, and give you a chance to play with the M6 while you wait
> 
> Eric


Hi, Eric!

Thanks, man. I was afraid that'd be the case. Just for the record, generic protected 18650's from markcm won't light up the 1111 either.

Lucky for me, I have an MN20... just tried it and it works!! 

 <---- Me grinning at the free lumens.

I'll order some AW cells right away. Thanks for the help!


 <---- Me can't stop grinning. Rechargeable M6... TOO cool!


----------



## greenLED

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*

My cells must be really old (can't even remember when I bought them). Even with the MN20 I need to double tap to get the Pila cells to work. Markcm's cells will light up on the first go, though (although it's not consistent - sometimes double-tap needed).


----------



## mdocod

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*

yep, PCBs in the Pila/AW/WE line had steady improvements in current limits over the years, very likely that an older cell would run into those limits on lower powered bulbs.


----------



## TheSteve

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*



mwaldron said:


> js designed, manufactured, and sold such a pack quite a while ago, and it was regulated using a Willie Hunt LVR to boot. Several people copied the idea (as I believe was js' intention) but the LVR's are no longer availiable. I keep hoping for one or two to pop up so I can make one of my own but so far no luck.




Its been forever since I posted on CPF - just wanted to say that regulated pack I made for my M6 is still working. I still love it. I was always planning to make a lithium version but have yet to complete it with my second Willie Hunt LVR.

http://candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=117919

If the LVRs are no longer available at all from Willie Hunt has anyone asked him for the code so we can make our own? I guess we could also scope the circuit and copy it...

Sure was a nice way to make a rechargeable pack using the MN21


----------



## DM51

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*



TheSteve said:


> ... just wanted to say that regulated pack I made for my M6 is still working ... has anyone asked for the code so we can make our own?


There's a very good new thread I can recommend to you: The PhD-M6 thread (programable hotwire driver for the SF-M6)


----------



## jumpstat

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*



ToeMoss said:


> Has anyone had success solving their M6 double-tap problem?
> 
> I've got the WA 1185 setup with the (3) 17670 cell+ FiveMega battery holder.
> 
> Battery pack is producing 12.36 V
> When lit, lamp is drawing 3.1 A
> 
> Can someone tell me:
> Is the voltage too high?
> Is the lamp drawing the proper amperage?
> Could the source of the WA 1185 lamp be an issue?
> 
> I've experimented with the different components to try and isolate the problem. Bypassing the battery holder, the switch, and the lamp holder (independently and together) have had no effect, double-tapping is required under all configurations.
> Batteries are the new AW 17670 cells with the "+Power" graphic.
> 
> Any Ideas?
> I really hate double-tapping, I'd be so grateful for help finding a solution.
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> Tom


New cells from AW don't mean they are good cells. Don't get me wrong, what I meant is that the WA1185 setup requires exceptional cells that are equally efficient that can run in threes perfectly to deliver/sustain the juice required to run the bulb. If it was any other bulb/config this wouldn't matter. 
I had the double tap problem much earlier and I got frustrated as I am using the '+ power' newer version with the black top and after FM's comments above, I tried experimenting with some other 17670 cells. Funny enough after mixing the cells with some from my friend I managed to get three that works without double tapping. I have also noticed that the three also charged evenly on the UF139 charger. So I went back to the original cells and found that two of them behave the same whilst the odd one out seem to achieve full charge faster than the other two which I believe is the non performing cell. However using this particular cell in other lights does not effect its performance.
So getting the rigfht combination of the batts is essential :candle:


----------



## openbolt1

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*



ToeMoss said:


> Has anyone had success solving their M6 double-tap problem? I've got the WA 1185 setup with the (3) 17670 cell+ FiveMega battery holder. Batteries are the new AW 17670 cells with the "+Power" graphic.
> 
> I really hate double-tapping, I'd be so grateful for help finding a solution.



Tom,

I'm in the same exact situation as you are. I actually have two identical set-up's: M6/WA1185/x3 17670's/=Double Tap required.

I will swap around the AW 17670's that I have on hand and see if I can get one to work without the double tap.

openbolt


----------



## greenLED

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*

My AW cells finally came...

I thought the MN20 with 2x18650's was cool. I'm   using the 1111. 



greenLED said:


> <---- Me can't stop grinning. Rechargeable M6... TOO cool!



Can't imagine how the 1185 looks like. 


David & Eric, y'all are such bad influences. :kiss:


----------



## cl0123

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*



greenLED said:


> I thought the MN20 with 2x18650's was cool. I'm   using the 1111.



That's one of my favorite configurations. I always have at least one WA1111 + 2x18650 on standby. 



greenLED said:


> Can't imagine how the 1185 looks like.



Actually, the brightness differences while visible, are almost negligible in most situations. Both lamps are just really bright bright! :candle: The extra capacity and the ease of recharging only 2 vs 3 cells make the WA1111 more practical for my uses. However, the WA1185 is a lot of fun when you ceiling-bounce it. Talk about "wow!"

With Aloha, 

Clarence


----------



## greenLED

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*



cl0123 said:


> Actually, the brightness differences while visible, are almost negligible in most situations. Both lamps are just really bright bright! :candle: The extra capacity and the ease of recharging only 2 vs 3 cells make the WA1111 more practical for my uses. However, the WA1185 is a lot of fun when you ceiling-bounce it. Talk about "wow!"
> 
> With Aloha,
> 
> Clarence


Mahalo, Clarence! Yeah, the light-geek in me would like to have a 1185 set up, but the ease of use of the 1111 won me over. I may not have the brightest out there, but it's bright enough for me, and I don't have to worry about charging odd numbers of batteries, double-tapping, etc.


Now, is there a dummy guide to focus the 1111 in there? Using the washer provided by Fivemega made things :green: (floodier beam, not a lot of artifacts, but reminded me of an out of focus Mag). 

Without the spacer and the bulb fully inserted, I get a slight donut in the middle of the beam. Any hints?


----------



## BSBG

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*



greenLED said:


> Without the spacer and the bulb fully inserted, I get a slight donut in the middle of the beam. Any hints?



Try loosening the set screw and moving the bulb up a couple of millimeters and see if that helps. For me, I always set the bulb down as far as it will go and I usually still need a couple of shim washers.


----------



## NotSoBrightBob

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*

_DM51 - Great article and I believe I have read all of it and used the search for other research to my questions but most tends to center around changing bulbs and getting the absolute max lumens. I applaud that quest and it makes for interesting reading but for me is there an optimal configuration to use a relatively inexpensive battery holder and betteries while still retaining the stock MN21 bulb?_

_My M6 use is purely play and impress my buddys so I prefer not to chew through primaries regularly and I don't need the very last minute of run time or the very max lumens.

I think I understand why the RCRs are not a great choice due to the 4.2 voltage they reach and I was unable to find any regulated and protected LiON 123 cells so I assume I live with NiMH. 

Can someone point me to the best battery / holder drop in solution available today for the M6 - MN21.

Thanks

Bob_


----------



## DM51

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*

Thanks, Bob! This thread is still valid for the applications and combinations lsted, but things have already moved on, with new developments such as the IMR batteries from AW, which open up numerous other bulb possibilities.

Probably the most exciting development is one that is currently in the pipeline, described in this thread: The PhD-M6 thread (programable hotwire driver for the SF-M6). 

Some of CPF's most expert minds are working on this project. It will provide regulated power for the M6, and will enable the use of the MN21 (among other bulbs) without instaflash problems.

Until then, the MN21 is such a brute of a bulb with rechargeable cells, and so picky about its voltage, that for the time being I'm afraid it should realistically be regarded as a "primaries only" bulb.


----------



## JNewell

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*

But the LF HO-M6R and various bulbs in FM's bi-pin holder do open up lots of other vistas with the M6!


----------



## kongfuchicken

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*

Dm,
Thanks for doing this test!

Have you tested the mn60 12v lola on 3x16750s yet?
It drops right in the M6 and has been my go-to setup for a few months now with over 30 charges and no failure which seems fairly robust (but granted only in my insignificant sample); in fact, I believe it's much more so than the mn16 on 2 li-ion cells which has so far earned me 2 instaflash and one explosion.

The beam of the mn60 on rechargeable cells is basically the same intensity and color as the mn61 but a bit smaller and perfectly round but it gets twice the runtime on the same charge at 45mins in average and I imagine is much easier on the cells.


----------



## cl0123

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*



JNewell said:


> But the LF HO-M6R and various bulbs in FM's bi-pin holder do open up lots of other vistas with the M6!


Agreed. Especially the LF HO-M6R. That's the lamp living in my emergency kit. It can take either 6 primaries or 6 AW protected RCR123 in the Surefire magazine. 

With Aloha, 

Clarence


----------



## greenLED

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*



BSBG said:


> Try loosening the set screw and moving the bulb up a couple of millimeters and see if that helps. For me, I always set the bulb down as far as it will go and I usually still need a couple of shim washers.


Thanks for the advise, BSBG. I had the bulb all the way down, but moving it upwards a little helped *a lot*. The dark hole is gone, and I now have a much, much nicer beam (with an elongated hotspot). I think I could still tweak the positioning a bit (the beam makes fuzzy shadows in the middle of the hotspot, but crisp on the edges), but I got tired of the (re-)assembly process. It's good enough for me as is.

I've already gone through 2 cycles with these new cells.


...can't stop grinning.


----------



## DM51

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*



JNewell said:


> But the LF HO-M6R and various bulbs in FM's bi-pin holder do open up lots of other vistas with the M6!


That is already covered in the shootout in post #1. I gave the HO-M6R a very good rating...



kongfuchicken said:


> Have you tested the mn60 12v lola on 3x16750s yet?


I didn't test the MN60, in fact. It should do well, and certainly much better than it does on primaries. It'll be overdriven, though, so its life will be shortened, but probably not as badly affected that way as the MN61. Thanks for your report on it!


----------



## Bullzeyebill

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*

Have been running the MN60 on three AW unprotected 18500's fully charged, with AW's soft start 3 way switch ( fivemega 2X18650 + bored A14) and it is just awesome, even on first two levels. (Don't worry, I check the Li Ions regularly for voltage).

Bill


----------



## Outdoors Fanatic

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*



NotSoBrightBob said:


> _DM51 - Great article and I believe I have read all of it and used the search for other research to my questions but most tends to center around changing bulbs and getting the absolute max lumens. I applaud that quest and it makes for interesting reading but for me is there an optimal configuration to use a relatively inexpensive battery holder and betteries while still retaining the stock MN21 bulb?_
> 
> _My M6 use is purely play and impress my buddys so I prefer not to chew through primaries regularly and I don't need the very last minute of run time or the very max lumens.
> 
> I think I understand why the RCRs are not a great choice due to the 4.2 voltage they reach and I was unable to find any regulated and protected LiON 123 cells so I assume I live with NiMH.
> 
> Can someone point me to the best battery / holder drop in solution available today for the M6 - MN21.
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Bob_





> _I think I understand why the RCRs are not a great choice due to the 4.2 voltage they reach and I was unable to find any regulated and protected LiON 123 cells so I assume I live with NiMH. _


 
Actually, they are a great choice as long as you use a 13v lamp assembly... Such as the excellent Lumens Factory *HO-M6R*.


----------



## BSBG

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*



NotSoBrightBob said:


> _
> 
> Can someone point me to the best battery / holder drop in solution available today for the M6 - MN21.
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Bob_



AS DM51 said, the MN21 is a picky bulb. I have had good luck using Mdocod's 2x18650 holder with 2 IMR 18650s. There is the possibility of insta-flashing your $25 lamp, but it is very impressive for 12-15 minutes.

Standard Li-Co Li Ions are not up to the current demands of this lamp assembly.

You must take care not to overly deplete the cells, so a few spares is a good idea, but again you are on the bleeding edge of performance, which can get expensive in terms of bulbs. You can buy two dozen SF CR123s for the price on one lamp assembly and be sure the lamp will survive, but where's the fun in that?


----------



## jlemmy

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*

After reading for days on the M6 , I have one on the way :naughty: . My question is since the modded battery holders seem rather difficult to come by . I was thinking of loading six AW IMR16340 batteries into the factory holder . What bulb options would I have with this ? Any suggestions ?


----------



## DM51

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*



jlemmy said:


> After reading for days on the M6 , I have one on the way :naughty: . My question is since the modded battery holders seem rather difficult to come by . I was thinking of loading six AW IMR16340 batteries into the factory holder . What bulb options would I have with this ? Any suggestions ?


I think the Lumens Factory HO-M6R would probably be the best option.


----------



## jlemmy

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*

Thanks , Should the Lumens Factory IMR flavor M6 Bulb be avoided or any of the Surefire bulbs ? Or is the HO-M6R the best balance of runtime vs. lumens ? Runtime isn't a huge concern as I'd only get 20 minutes off primary cells with the factory HO bulb anyway . Are there any other battery options with the factory holder that should be considered ?


----------



## Patriot

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*



jlemmy said:


> Thanks , Should the Lumens Factory IMR flavor M6 Bulb be avoided or any of the Surefire bulbs ? Or is the HO-M6R the best balance of runtime vs. lumens ? Runtime isn't a huge concern as I'd only get 20 minutes off primary cells with the factory HO bulb anyway . Are there any other battery options with the factory holder that should be considered ?



The "factory HO bulb" (MN21) won't handle the voltage. It would either have to be the HO-M6R (best option by far) or MN61 or WA1185 which requires a bi-pin bulb holder and wouldn't be a good match for your batteries anyhow. 

I'm so impressed with the HO-M6R that I leave one of my 5 M6's set up that way all the time. It's very white, bright, and throws very well.


----------



## Outdoors Fanatic

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*



Patriot36 said:


> The "factory HO bulb" (MN21) won't handle the voltage. It would either have to be the HO-M6R (best option by far) or MN61 or WA1185 which requires a bi-pin bulb holder and wouldn't be a good match for your batteries anyhow.
> 
> I'm so impressed with the HO-M6R that I leave one of my 5 M6's set up that way all the time. It's very white, bright, and throws very well.


*+1!*

Well said.


----------



## jlemmy

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*

HO-M6R ordered ! Thanks Guys !


----------



## Edwood

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*

I was thinking of running a WA1185 set up in an M3T with 3x IMR RCR123's.

Would that be feasible? What kind of runtime could I expect? I know it won't be a lot. It would mostly be used in small bursts.

-Ed


----------



## whitedoom34

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*



Edwood said:


> I was thinking of running a WA1185 set up in an M3T with 3x IMR RCR123's.
> 
> Would that be feasible? What kind of runtime could I expect? I know it won't be a lot. It would mostly be used in small bursts.
> 
> -Ed



I am doing it. It is definetly feasable! Runtime should be limited to 7-8 minutes. I run my kt4 and 1185 combo on my l6 body when I dont feel like lugging around the M6.


----------



## Snow

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*

Well I snagged an M6 for a great price late last night on the marketplace, so I've been scouring this thread, trying to decide which rechargeable option to use. I am down to these two options:

3x17670 holder
HO-M6R

or 

2x18650 holder
bipin adaptor
WA 1111 bulb

For those of you who have made the same decision, which did you pick? I like the ease of dropin of the HO-M6R and the longer runtime, but the ease of charging 18650s and the cheaper replacement cost of the 1111 bulb is tempting as well. Decisions...


----------



## openbolt1

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*

No doubt in my mind. Go with the FM x3 17670 holder/battery combo and either use the Lumens Factory HO-M6R bulb or the WA1185 bulb & holder combo. I have 2 M6's and have one of each set-up this way. One is for maximum brightness but takes a double tap to fire it up.

The L/F HO-M6R is almost as bright but only requires a single push of the button or a twist of the tailcap.

_I would pass on the x2 18650/WA1111 combo just because it just not as bright as either of the above set-ups._

I mean that is why you bought an M6 right? You wanted a really bright light...

If I had to make a choice of only one...I would use the x3 17670/WA1185. It's really all one could ask for without getting into the more complex lights.

openbolt


----------



## Snow

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*



openbolt1 said:


> No doubt in my mind. Go with the FM x3 17670 holder/battery combo and either use the Lumens Factory HO-M6R bulb or the WA1185 bulb & holder combo. I have 2 M6's and have one of each set-up this way. One is for maximum brightness but takes a double tap to fire it up.
> 
> The L/F HO-M6R is almost as bright but only requires a single push of the button or a twist of the tailcap.
> 
> _I would pass on the x2 18650/WA1111 combo just because it just not as bright as either of the above set-ups._
> 
> I mean that is why you bought an M6 right? You wanted a really bright light...
> 
> If I had to make a choice of only one...I would use the x3 17670/WA1185. It's really all one could ask for without getting into the more complex lights.
> 
> openbolt


 
Yeah I bought the M6 for a ridiculous, over the top light, but I also wanted a little bit better runtime. Theoretically, I could achieve the same brightness in my M3T but the runtimes are so abysmal that it isn't practical. A crazy bright light still needs to run for 20 minutes or so or else it isn't worth carrying IMO. Then I like to have a more practical option with 35+ minutes of runtime. Thanks for the advice. I will have to think about my charger options should I get the 17670 holder.


----------



## greenLED

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*



openbolt1 said:


> _I would pass on the x2 18650/WA1111 combo just because it just not as bright as either of the above set-ups._
> 
> I mean that is why you bought an M6 right? You wanted a really bright light...





Snow said:


> Yeah I bought the M6 for a ridiculous, over the top light, but I also wanted a little bit better runtime. Theoretically, I could achieve the same brightness in my M3T but the runtimes are so abysmal that it isn't practical. A crazy bright light still needs to run for 20 minutes or so or else it isn't worth carrying IMO.



Brighter would be fun but, like Snow says, the limits of practicality start getting pushed. That's why I decided that I liked the lower output from the 1111 bulb because it allowed for greater runtime.


----------



## Kestrel

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*



Snow said:


> Well I snagged an M6 for a great price late last night on the marketplace, so I've been scouring this thread, trying to decide which rechargeable option to use. I am down to these two options:
> 
> 3x17670 holder,HO-M6R
> 2x18650 holder, bipin adaptor,WA 1111 bulb
> For those of you who have made the same decision, which did you pick? I like the ease of dropin of the HO-M6R and the longer runtime, but the ease of charging 18650s and the cheaper replacement cost of the 1111 bulb is tempting as well. Decisions...


I saw that M6 sales thread as well (too late for me though).:mecry: I would have then went with the 3x17670 & LF setup, I wouldn't like to double-tap and also fiddle with vertical positioning of the bulb in the bi-pin adaptor for every bulb change. Perhaps the LF might last longer if it's not overdriven so much? Just a guess, since I (of course) don't own an M6.:mecry:
It seems to me that sometimes the FM stuff isn't available (hands full making other stuff, I assume), so buy them while you can.:thumbsup:


----------



## LuxLuthor

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*



Patriot36 said:


> I'm so impressed with the HO-M6R that I leave one of my 5 M6's set up that way all the time.



What? You only have five M-6's? Noob! LOL! Think of all those starving children in Ethiopia. Oh wait, umm....that might be about something else.


----------



## Patriot

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*



LuxLuthor said:


> What? You only have five M-6's? Noob! LOL! Think of all those starving children in Ethiopia. Oh wait, umm....that might be about something else.




lol....you called me a "noob"....lol. ...and yes, I usually feel like one when I read one of your in depth threads. I'm just glad that you own one now also that way you can't make too much fun of me. :kiss:


----------



## Edwood

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*

Wait, do all set ups with the WA1185 require double tap to get it started? 

I just ordered 3x 17670 and 3x IMR RCR123's. 

I plan to Surefire lego between my M6 and M3T. 

I have a LED Zep M6 mod planned. I wanted to the best of both worlds. Solid state and Vacuum tube. 

-Ed


----------



## Patriot

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*



Edwood said:


> Wait, do all set ups with the WA1185 require double tap to get it started?
> 
> I just ordered 3x 17670 and 3x IMR RCR123's.
> 
> I plan to Surefire lego between my M6 and M3T.
> 
> I have a LED Zep M6 mod planned. I wanted to the best of both worlds. Solid state and Vacuum tube.
> 
> -Ed




Nope, shouldn't need a double tap at all. They may have been referring to something else.


----------



## Monocrom

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*



Snow said:


> I will have to think about my charger options should I get the 17670 holder.


 
I use a ShoShine charger for when I want to charge up more than two cells at a time.

Here's a link: (It's the one on the right).
http://www.lighthound.com/search.asp?keyword=Shoshine&search=GO


----------



## Snow

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*

Well I decided to go with the 3x17670 setup. I weighed the pros and cons for a long time, but decided I really want to run the 1185 and the HO-M6R. They were the two best looking lamps in the shootout IMO and I still have the M3T + 2x17500 cells for running all of the 2 cell lamps, albeit with a shorter runtime. Now I just need to wait for everything to get here.:devil:


----------



## jumpstat

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*



Patriot36 said:


> Nope, shouldn't need a double tap at all. They may have been referring to something else.


Batteries for the WA1185 setup is important. AW's high current black 17670 would not require double taps.


----------



## BSBG

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*

Here's another option: Petrev's 6s carrier with eneloops and his short tail cup. The short tail cup allows the use of AW C cells without an extender as well.


----------



## Edwood

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*



BSBG said:


> Here's another option: Petrev's 6s carrier with eneloops and his short tail cup. The short tail cup allows the use of AW C cells without an extender as well.



What are you able to run with the 6x AA Eneloop set up?

And what kind of run times are you getting?

-Ed


----------



## BSBG

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*



Edwood said:


> What are you able to run with the 6x AA Eneloop set up?
> 
> And what kind of run times are you getting?
> 
> -Ed



You can run any of the "6v+" options - MN20, MN21, WA1111 w/ bipin adapter, etc. Basically, anything you would run with the stock pack or 2xLi Ion.

Run time on an MN21 is around 20 minutes.


----------



## RobertM

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*



BSBG said:


> You can run any of the "6v+" options - MN20, MN21, WA1111 w/ bipin adapter, etc. Basically, anything you would run with the stock pack or 2xLi Ion.
> 
> Run time on an MN21 is around 20 minutes.



Now that is an interesting option! Can you measure the current draw with a DMM from that setup on the MN21? I'm guessing it's probably pretty close to what it draws from 3S2P primaries.

Also, do you have a link to the holder and tailcup?

-Robert


----------



## Kestrel

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*

Here's the link I had marked to purchase those:
https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/221725

You know, it should be possible to configure 8 eneloops in this way instead of six, as there is a 4x14670 carrier configuration elsewhere. That would be pretty cool too, you could run the WA1185 without overdriving, getting 800 bulb lumens and the rated 50 hours life @ 9.6 volts. You could have the first M6/1185/8xEneloop on CPF, maybe Petrev could be persuaded to modify the 6x17500 carrier he makes. And having the ability to run 8xAA alkaline primaries for backup in an M6, how cool is that! :huh:


----------



## Patriot

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*

Move from another thread:

I recently purchased 2 more M6's from CPF members for a total of 7 and I'm beginning to think that I have a problem.  At least I can try to convince myself that there's some kind of justification since there are the M6 variations and set-up combinations. 

Currently my M6 lights are set up like this:

MN15, primaries
KL6 Milky Q5 mod, AWRCR123's 
M3 head with LF EO-M3 bulb, primaries
EO-M6R, 3 x 17670's
1185, 3 x 17670's

I'd like to get everyone's thoughts on how I might set-up the other two. I'm familiar with most of the configurations, I just thought it would be fun to see what CPFers think would be the best while taking into consideration what I have now.

:thanks:


----------



## william lafferty

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*

My favorite M6 setup is 2 x C li-ions and MN 16 lamp. If I am right that the lamp is drawing 2.6 amps, runtime is over an hour. Approaches the 1185 in brightness, but runtime of the 1185 on 3 x 17670's is about 30 min.

bill


----------



## DM51

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*

You've got me thinking now! So... what would I have fun with if I had another M6? I'm not sure, but I think it would probably be earmarked for 2x IMR26500 and petrev's short tailcap insert, running the brightest bulb I can find to fit in there - 64275 maybe...


----------



## Patriot

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*



DM51 said:


> 64275 maybe...



Hmm. I hadn't even considered that. Now, I'd still have to grind the bulb or open the reflector hole some correct?


William, thanks for the ideas. That's another that I hadn't considered.


----------



## DM51

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*



Patriot36 said:


> Now, I'd still have to grind the bulb or open the reflector hole some correct?


I'm not sure of the diameter of the bulb, but drilling out the reflector hole to make it slightly larger is not too difficult.


----------



## Edwood

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*

I now have an ultimate LED and Incan combo.

M6 with an LED Zeppelin MZXR-7 and an M3T with WA1185 (running 3x IMR16340). I swap between the two, but use the M6 body the most.

One thing that really bugs me about the FM 3x17670 battery set up is the battery rattle in the M6 tube. I also notice that it causes wear on the edges of the AW 17670 cell's outer wrap. I found that rotating the batteries so that the silver label is facing out helps a bit. But the battery carrier rattle is still there. 

I had a scrap sheet of teflon lying around, so I cut it to shape and put is inside the M6 body tube. Now the FM carrier fits perfectly snug, and it slides out easily, just need to pull it out from the charging plug end.  The teflon sheet stays put inside, and can be easily removed when I want to use the stock MB20 carrier.

-Ed


----------



## Patriot

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*

Very nice combo Edwood. Run-time is pretty limited on the three small IMR's though huh. Sounds to me like you need another M6


----------



## Edwood

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*



Patriot36 said:


> Very nice combo Edwood. Run-time is pretty limited on the three small IMR's though huh. Sounds to me like you need another M6



Heheh, yeah, runtime is realistically less than 10 minutes so as to keep the IMR's in decent shape. The extra spring compression of the FM Bi Pin holder also makes it a pain to swap heads. 

I missed out on the Megallenium and a nice mint M6 body on the marketplace.

Oh well. I really like the balance between the two, however. The M-Zep head is quite heavy compared to stock head, so it balances better with the M6. The standard KT4 head is quite lightweight with the WA1185, so it balances great on the M3 body. 

The WA1185 is more of a back up solution and incan fun time solution for me. As the M-Zep with 7x R2 Crees blows it out of the water. But's a bulky and heavy combo.

The M3T with WA1185 is a much lighter weight combo. (not to mention much much cheaper). It gets a bit too long paired with an SW02, but I love the sexy combo, even though I barely ever use it. 

-Ed


----------



## Patriot

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*



Edwood said:


> It gets a bit too long paired with an SW02, but I love the sexy combo, even though I barely ever use it.




So true, the SWO2 finishes the M3 imo.


----------



## Patriot

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*



Edwood said:


> I missed out on the Megallenium and a nice mint M6 body on the marketplace.
> 
> /quote]
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here is another from DaFAB.......
> 
> http://www.cpfmarketplace.com/mp/showthread.php?t=192977


----------



## Edwood

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*

I snagged a Megalennium from Varooj. 

Now I need to decide if I want IMR 18650's or Protected 18650's. 

I'd go with Protected AW cells if I stick with WA1185's. But I keep wondering what other crazy bulb I could go with. But it would require enlarging the hole in the stock reflector. Hmmmm. I do have an extra reflector lying around I could try. Although it would probably be easier to mod the bulb.

Any bulb recommendations? 

-Ed


----------



## william lafferty

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*



Edwood said:


> I snagged a Megalennium from Varooj.
> 
> Now I need to decide if I want IMR 18650's or Protected 18650's.
> 
> I'd go with Protected AW cells if I stick with WA1185's. But I keep wondering what other crazy bulb I could go with. But it would require enlarging the hole in the stock reflector. Hmmmm. I do have an extra reflector lying around I could try. Although it would probably be easier to mod the bulb.
> 
> Any bulb recommendations?
> 
> -Ed





I'm running 3 x IMR 18650's with an MN61 bulb and am pleased with the results in the Megalennium. Good throw, very bright, excellent beam shape. The soft start probably lengthens bulb life, and although the retail is $30 + I often see this MN 60 and MN 61 for $20 or less on CPF.


----------



## GunSmoke16610

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*

Thanks to DM51 for all the work on this post. As a result my M6 with WA 1185/3s 17670 (Fivemega) light recently arrived. The beam and throw are amazing! 

Will follow up with beam shots, until then here it is (Along with my Milky)


----------



## cryhavok

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*

nice light :thumbsup:


----------



## Patriot

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*

GunSmoke those are great! Hey, let me know if you ever get rid of that Milky KL2 as it's one of my favorite M3 heads ever.


----------



## Patriot

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*



Edwood said:


> I snagged a Megalennium from Varooj.
> 
> Now I need to decide if I want IMR 18650's or Protected 18650's.
> 
> I'd go with Protected AW cells if I stick with WA1185's. But I keep wondering what other crazy bulb I could go with. But it would require enlarging the hole in the stock reflector. Hmmmm. I do have an extra reflector lying around I could try. Although it would probably be easier to mod the bulb.
> 
> Any bulb recommendations?
> 
> -Ed




I'd run the protected 18650's since there's really no advantage to the IMR's in this application...well, other than safe chemistry. I'd go for capacity since even the 1185 is well within their discharge rate.


----------



## GunSmoke16610

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*



cryhavok said:


> nice light :thumbsup:


 
Thanks bro!


----------



## Patriot

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*



DM51 said:


> You've got me thinking now! So... what would I have fun with if I had another M6? I'm not sure, but I think it would probably be earmarked for 2x IMR26500 and petrev's short tailcap insert, running the brightest bulb I can find to fit in there - 64275 maybe...




Now that the 3 x 18650 is available, the "M6-allenium" as you call it...lol, what's you're take on 3 x 18650 IMR's and 64623? The voltage is on the low end of the scale and draws 8.8A at 12v @ 2800 lumens, but.......your thoughts?


----------



## BSBG

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*



Patriot said:


> Now that the 3 x 18650 is available, the "M6-allenium" as you call it...lol, what's you're take on 3 x 18650 IMR's and 64623? The voltage is on the low end of the scale and draws 8.8A at 12v @ 2800 lumens, but.......your thoughts?



Underwhelming - yellow and not as bright as you might think as the 3 cells will sag well below the nominal 12v. The 623 won't fit in a SF head without some serious reaming as well. You need 4 18650s to make the 623 really shine, as in an Elephant II, Colossus or Mammoth.


----------



## Patriot

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*



BSBG said:


> Underwhelming - yellow and not as bright as you might think as the 3 cells will sag well below the nominal 12v. The 623 won't fit in a SF head without some serious reaming as well. You need 4 18650s to make the 623 really shine, as in an Elephant II, Colossus or Mammoth.




Ok, thanks BSBG. I'm looking for a bulb that's brighter than the 1185 and will work on 3 x IMR's. Reaming is no problem. I've run out of ideas.


----------



## DM51

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*

I agree with BSBG there. The other (perhaps more serious) problem you would find would be with heat management. The KT4 head is not good at heat dissipation, due to the shock isolation. Don't forget that this is achieved with a damper made of neoprene, and if the neoprene got too hot it could be severely damaged, or it could even melt.


----------



## DM51

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*

@ GunSmoke16610... please could you resize your photos in post #353 - they are nice pics, but too large.


----------



## Patriot

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*

Thanks guys and great points about thermal issues. I guess I've just been pondering the next M6 step beyond the 1185 even if the safe run duration was cut to a 30 second duty cycle. In other words I'm just curious about whats possible and not necessarily what's practical. After scrolling through Lux Luthor's charts it doesn't appear that there's any bulb that would fit the bill so going beyond the 1185 might just be a dead end. I'm afraid that exploring 2C options might not get me any further either.


----------



## max52

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*

Did I miss something? I have the fivemega 6 17670 with extension running the MN21.


----------



## DM51

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*



max52 said:


> Did I miss something? I have the fivemega 6 17670 with extension running the MN21.


The configuration for that will be 2s3p. It should be very bright, but I doubt your MN21 will last very long as it will be severely over-driven.


----------



## Patriot

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*



max52 said:


> Did I miss something? I have the fivemega 6 17670 with extension running the MN21.




Basically the same as a 2C set-up which I decided against because of very short bulb life and multiple clicks to start.


----------



## Tim W

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*

Just a heads up for anyone who may want a FM bi pin socket.

So far there are nearly 20 who have committed to one. If we get the list up to 50, Fivemega will do another run of these.

Sign up in this thread: https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/206837

Tim


----------



## RobertM

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*

It wouldn't run for very long, but would 2x LiFePO4 18650 cells in one of Eric's holders work with the MN21? Would it be too under-driven?


----------



## Bullzeyebill

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*



RobertM said:


> It wouldn't run for very long, but would 2x LiFePO4 18650 cells in one of Eric's holders work with the MN21? Would it be too under-driven?



They have the potential to flash the MN21, which likes to run at about 6.8 volts or so. Do some research, even in this thread, regarding the voltage requirements of the MN21.

Bill


----------



## Patriot

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*

EDIT: Yes, a little under driven with LiFePO4.


----------



## RobertM

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*



Bullzeyebill said:


> They have the potential to flash the MN21, which likes to run at about 6.8 volts or so. Do some research, even in this thread, regarding the voltage requirements of the MN21.
> 
> Bill



I'm confused, LiFePO4 cells should be ~3.2-3.3v under load, correct? 2x LiFePO4 cells in series should be 6.4-6.6v compared to the MN21's operating voltage of 6.8. Wouldn't they be under-driven rather than overdriven? Is the initial, open voltage of ~3.7v per cell before they settle enough to flash or shorten the life of the lamp?


----------



## Bullzeyebill

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*

Yes, I believe you are right. Two should be ok, and short lived. Thinking of another cell.

Bill


----------



## Jay T

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*



Patriot said:


> Thanks guys and great points about thermal issues. I guess I've just been pondering the next M6 step beyond the 1185 even if the safe run duration was cut to a 30 second duty cycle. In other words I'm just curious about whats possible and not necessarily what's practical. After scrolling through Lux Luthor's charts it doesn't appear that there's any bulb that would fit the bill so going beyond the 1185 might just be a dead end. I'm afraid that exploring 2C options might not get me any further either.



How about this for wild bright. Take an FM 3x17670 holder and load it with 6 IMR16340 cells. Then use a Hikari JC5033 G4 12V 35W bulb. Looking at Lux's charts this should get you up into the 3K lumen range. Not much run time, but, it should be bright.


----------



## Patriot

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*



Jay T said:


> How about this for wild bright. Take an FM 3x17670 holder and load it with 6 IMR16340 cells. Then use a Hikari JC5033 G4 12V 35W bulb. Looking at Lux's charts this should get you up into the 3K lumen range. Not much run time, but, it should be bright.





LOL....If I told you I had already thought of this combo you'd immediately know I was lying to you...

That's definitely one set-up I hadn't considered yet. Thanks Jay T.


----------



## bigchelis

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*

I have a crazy idea, but I do not know if it will work.

First. Where do I get this
*"The Fivemega 2C extender comes with a plastic sleeve "*

*If I have the extender and I use the modified tailcap mod that comes with the 6 17500 holder from Pete.*

*Would I be able to fit 2 li-on D cells from KD. The black protected versions claim 5000mAh. *

*I would want to run the wa111 and my 5 R2 drop-in which runs from 3 to 24v fully regulated. Dennis's drop-in creation.*

*Thanks,*
*Jose*


----------



## jslappa

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*

Closed now, but it was here
https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/177911


----------



## DM51

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*



bigchelis said:


> I have a crazy idea, but I do not know if it will work.
> 
> First. Where do I get this
> *"The Fivemega 2C extender comes with a plastic sleeve "*
> 
> *If I have the extender and I use the modified tailcap mod that comes with the 6 17500 holder from Pete.*
> 
> *Would I be able to fit 2 li-on D cells from KD. The black protected versions claim 5000mAh. *
> 
> *I would want to run the wa111 and my 5 R2 drop-in which runs from 3 to 24v fully regulated. Dennis's drop-in creation.*
> 
> *Thanks,*
> *Jose*


It won't work, I'm afraid. 

First, the plastic sleeve is for 26 mm diameter 'C' cells, so a 'D' cell won't fit in it.

Second, C-cells are ~50 mm long. D-cells are ~65 mm long, so with 2 of them you would need an extra 30 mm length over and above the ~20 mm you get with the FM extender. In other words, you'd need a total ~50mm extension to take 2x D's. I'm not sure how much saving in length Pete's modded tailcap insert gives you, but that + the 20mm FM extension just won't be enough.

Third, I personally will never recommend those D-cells from KD. That's just my own opinion, though.


----------



## bigchelis

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*



DM51 said:


> It won't work, I'm afraid.
> 
> First, the plastic sleeve is for 26 mm diameter 'C' cells, so a 'D' cell won't fit in it.
> 
> Second, C-cells are ~50 mm long. D-cells are ~65 mm long, so with 2 of them you would need an extra 30 mm length over and above the ~20 mm you get with the FM extender. In other words, you'd need a total ~50mm extension to take 2x D's. I'm not sure how much saving in length Pete's modded tailcap insert gives you, but that + the 20mm FM extension just won't be enough.
> 
> Third, I personally will never recommend those D-cells from KD. That's just my own opinion, though.


 
I sent a PM to fivemega regarding the need for a D cell extention now that KD sells the dedicated chargers and the 5000mAh 3.7v cells:thumbsup:

His response
"*In fact, I am studying and will consider about this mod."*

I think this means he was already considering making this mod for us. I sure hope so.:candle:


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## DM51

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*

Good news for those of you who have been having instaflash problems - AW's M6 Softstart is now available.

This fits inside the regular M6 tailcap, and will give a better lifetime on bulbs such WA1185. 

Also a very good solution for those who would like to use the Philips 5761, which is normally very prone to instaflash on 2x Li-Ions.


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## 325addict

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*

@ DM51: now you tempted me to buy an M6 :green:

I always regarded it as "non-practical" because of powering-problems, but whoow, since I read your most-extensive thread on the M6 I've ever seen, I changed my mind.... drastically! Now I want one :green: :green: :green:

Without going through all these pages of replies, I've got one single, but important question: there seem to be no less than FIVE original MN-XX lamps around, only two of those are originally intended to be used with the M6 (correct me if I'm wrong here).
The question is: which lamp has been designed for which voltage (or number of series-connected primary CR123s)?

I'm not looking for the last Lumen to squeeze out of it, I want to be on the safe side, and I want a decent runtime (about an hour or so, a little less is OK) so I thought of using the 2X 18650 holder. A bulb that has been designed to run on 3X primary CR123s is right in this case, isn't it? If this is no good (no matching MN-XX lamp) I can also use the 3X 16760 holder, but I think, there's no lamp to match this one in the SF-assortment.
Alternatively, I could use the Lumens Factory bulb, this one has been designed to operate on 10.8V (that means: 3X Li-ion in series) so, in this case the 3X 16760 will do?
There's no 3X 18650 holder, as this won't fit I suppose?

Final question: I see, this LF-bulb also throws out 700 Lumens, just like one of their D36 dropins for the M90 Rattlesnake.
Do you have any idea on how these two lamps will perform, does one have the better throw, spill, overall brightness out of the front etc etc??
If they are quite equal, there's little need to buy an M6... I already have an M90 with the conversion kit ("150" extender, three batts, charger etc etc).


Timmo.


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## DM51

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*

The bulbs/LAs that will run on 2x or 3x Li-Ions are mostly listed in Post #1. There are a few more recently introduced ones, such as the LF IMR series.

For ~1 hour on 2x18650, the MN20 or MN16 would be OK. They will be over-driven though, so bulb life will be reduced.

For the 3x17670, I would strongly recommend the excellent Lumens Factory HO-M6R. Bear in mind LF rate their output differently to SF. The HO-M6R performance is shown in post #1. 

There IS a 3x18650 option - Fivemega's sensational Megalennium body!


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## 325addict

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*

So, nearly all of these MN XX bulbs are designed to be driven from 3 CR123s in series (9 volts).
As they can be an immense load, one series-stack doesn't make it, voltage will sag in too far, for that reason SF will have decided to parallel another 3-series stack. That's how I see it.

Now, as far as I know, voltage of 3 CR123s in series pretty much is the same (under load) as 2 Li-ions in series. 
But in this case, that's different? You wrote, they will be overdriven.

When I put in 2X 17500 in my C3 Centurion instead of 3X CR123A, do I overdrive the P90 also then? I didn't see a big difference in light output. I'll go on using the 17500s anyway... I've got 7 spare P90s 

EDIT: now I took a very close look at those MN16 and MN20 beamshots and.... to me, it looks like the beams are LESS bright with 2X 18650s compared to primaries.... but you tell me, at least the MN16 is "clearly overdriven". What do I interpret wrong here?


Thanks in advance,

Timmo.


Timmo.


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## DM51

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*

Good points... I didn't explain very well. There will be more voltage sag with 3x primaries than with 2x 18650s. 

The MN16 is designed to work with 3x primaries, so will be brighter with 2x 18650s.

However, as you correctly point out, the M6 stock MB20 battery holder uses 2 stacks of 3 primaries (3s2p). This arrangement will hold its voltage better, so the MN16 will be overdriven in this configuration. That is why it looks so bright with both 2x 18650 and 3s2p primaries.

The MN20, on the other hand, is designed for the 3s2p primary configuration and will not be noticeably overdriven.

Your 2x 17500s in your C3 have about half the capacity of 2x 18650s, so there will be more voltage sag. The P90s will work fine with them.


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## 325addict

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*

OK DM51, thanks for these reassuring words. I did my investigations in the meantime, the MN16 lamp assembly has been designed for the M3T, that uses 3 series CR123s. So, in this case, there'll be more voltage sag than when used with the standard M6 battery-holder, that holds two of these stacks in parallel, so the batteries in it can (no, MUST) deliver twice the current in order to encounter a similar voltage sag.... resulting in a higher voltage for a given load, read: the lamp will be overdriven.... I now fully understand!

It's fine the C3 and P90 will work fine with the 17500s... until now, not one lamp flashed. I am still blown away by the performance of that C3 with standard P90 lamp assembly.... let's face the facts, not so long ago only a MagCharger was capable of delivering this amount of light, now the C3 gives that big, heavy monster a good run for its money :thumbsup:


Thanks!

Timmo.


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## mdocod

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*

The MN16 on a pair of 18650s is driving the **** out of the bulb. Pushing it into 1111 territory on the output scale but with less power consumption and bulb life. 

As far as 3x17670 options go, the new IMR-M6 bulb from LF is IMO the way to go for maximum output as it has a lower chance of pre-mature failure than an 1185 and is almost the same output. The HO-M6R offers a more conservative output (still plenty as most will attest) but offers a runtime that is easier on the cells and more practical in most applications.

-Eric


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## kungfumo

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*

I hope this is the right place to put this question. I just put together an M6 with a HO-M6R bulb and I'm using some brand new UltraFire 16340's in it and its bright as all get out. 

Problem now is that I went to play with it 2 days ago, and the 16340's were dead, so I put them in the charger and they showed green. I thought this was weird so I checked them with a volt meter and 3 showed 2 volts the others showed "0". I looked the 16340's over and they are dented at the bottom from having to push them so hard into the bat holder, so I wonder if that cooked them?

At any rate I have a few more 16340s that I put in the light all with a freash charge and they did the same thing again. Is it because they are denting on the neg side from being pushed into the holder? What 16340's would you recommend for this setup?

Thanks
Jake


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## bigchelis

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*



kungfumo said:


> I hope this is the right place to put this question. I just put together an M6 with a HO-M6R bulb and I'm using some brand new UltraFire 16340's in it and its bright as all get out.
> 
> Problem now is that I went to play with it 2 days ago, and the 16340's were dead, so I put them in the charger and they showed green. I thought this was weird so I checked them with a volt meter and 3 showed 2 volts the others showed "0". I looked the 16340's over and they are dented at the bottom from having to push them so hard into the bat holder, so I wonder if that cooked them?
> 
> At any rate I have a few more 16340s that I put in the light all with a freash charge and they did the same thing again. Is it because they are denting on the neg side from being pushed into the holder? What 16340's would you recommend for this setup?
> 
> Thanks
> Jake


 

The problem I see and I have the same set-up too; is that the 2A of current the lamp produces is too much for those Ultrafires. I use IMR 16340's. They fit right in and can handle the high amp draw. 


I used to have a Solarforce 1200 lumen incandescent with 3 trustfire 18650's in series. I killed 3 or 4 cells and when I took them out the voltages were all over the place too. The IMR 18650's would have solved the problem, but I sold the light:shrug: Rookie mistake, but now I know.


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## kungfumo

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*

I'm just wondering why they are discharging while the light it off? its not shorting out that I can see?


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## Wattnot

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*



kungfumo said:


> I'm just wondering why they are discharging while the light it off? its not shorting out that I can see?


 
I don't believe there is a short or a parasitic drain. I believe THIS is the problem:




kungfumo said:


> I'm using some brand new UltraFire 16340's


 
He toasted the cheapie batteries, that's all. Trustfires are ok and of course AW's or the ones PTS-Flashlights sell should work great.


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## Patriot

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*



kungfumo said:


> Problem now is that I went to play with it 2 days ago, and the 16340's were dead, so I put them in the charger and they showed green. I thought this was weird so I checked them with a volt meter and 3 showed 2 volts the others showed "0". I looked the 16340's over and they are dented at the bottom from having to push them so hard into the bat holder, so I wonder if that cooked them?




I'm not exactly sure why your individual cell voltage is so low unless it has to do with the batteries being dented/crushed. I thought those Ultrafire cells were protected from over discharge so damage is my only guess. Btw, Ultrafire cells are 1-2mm longer than any other RCR123 and the ones I've had in my possession were of terrible quality. If you're going to run RCR123s with a demanding bulb like the HO-M6R get some good quality AW cells and save yourself some headache. 







> *Bigchelis
> *The problem I see and I have the same set-up too; is that the 2A of current the lamp produces is too much for those Ultrafires. I use IMR 16340's. They fit right in and can handle the high amp draw.



The HO-M6R was designed to run specifically from 6 AW RCR123's. That 
2A load is spread over 6 cells and in within their discharge rate. IMR 16340s also work if you don't mind loosing 30% of your run-time. Certainly and option but not for everyone, including myself.


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## DM51

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*

Kungfomo... Ultrafire cells have a terrible reputation for inconsistency and unreliability. If in addition to that, they had to be compressed quite hard (probably damaging them) to fit into the MB20 battery holder, so you have a problem which I think will best be solved by tossing those cells and getting some that are (a) reliable and (b) will fit.

It sounds as if you have mashed the protection circuits on the ones that are reading 2.0V, and I can't speculate about the others except to say the low-voltage protection circuit may have tripped. 

It is dangerous to recharge any Li-Ion cell that reads much below 3.0V after resting, so I wouldn't try it.

------------------

In posts #383-385 above, mdocod has corrected me on an issue with the SF MN16 bulb - please listen to what he says, as he is more knowledgeable about bulbs than I am.


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## bigchelis

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*

Patriot,

The stock holder is a 3s2p. I was under the assumption that the current is only shared with cells in parallel. If it was a 6s holder all cells would get hit with the same current. Since this is 2P holder does that mean that half the current is applied to all cells?

I have the Petrev 6 17500 holder which is 2s3P and I think the current will be divided by 3 before it hits the cells. 


What will be the current with these holders? 
Jose


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## kungfumo

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*

Thanks for the help guys, I will order some better bats for it. Ya I had to mash those cells to get them to fit so I guess I got what was coming to me

Any one point me in the right direction for some better bat's?

Thanks again,
Jake


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## bigchelis

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*



kungfumo said:


> Thanks for the help guys, I will order some better bats for it. Ya I had to mash those cells to get them to fit so I guess I got what was coming to me
> 
> Any one point me in the right direction for some better bat's?
> 
> Thanks again,
> Jake


 
The only place I purchase is lighhound.com. You could also go to the market place and one of the venders is AW himself. I choose lighthound because here in CA; the stuff arrives within 2 days.:thumbsup:

IMR 16340
IMR C cells with Petes tail mod STC check the custom section. The STC mod is $25 and allows you to use 2 C cells in the M6.


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## Patriot

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*



bigchelis said:


> Patriot,
> 
> The stock holder is a 3s2p. I was under the assumption that the current is only shared with cells in parallel. If it was a 6s holder all cells would get hit with the same current. Since this is 2P holder does that mean that half the current is applied to all cells?
> 
> I have the Petrev 6 17500 holder which is 2s3P and I think the current will be divided by 3 before it hits the cells.
> 
> 
> What will be the current with these holders?
> Jose





Sorry for the delayed response Jose, I didn't see your post until until just now. 

...um let's see, yes the stock MB20 holder is a 3s2p holder and the 2.1A current is shared with the cells in parallel. In this case 2 x 750mah cells x 3 combine to share the load. The capacity of the two shared cells is just slightly short of being equal to using one 17670. The 17670's in an FM holder will work even better because there is slightly more capacity with that later arrangement. Still, 3s2p RCR123s can be safely used with the HO-M6R and it was actually designed with this set-up in mind. When I mentioned the 6 cells, I was just speaking generically of they total capacity while combining to work at "13V."

Paul


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## DFLO281

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*

How about useing Lumens Factory IMR-M6 1000 with 3x17670?


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## bigchelis

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*



DFLO281 said:


> How about useing Lumens Factory IMR-M6 1000 with 3x17670?


 

I just used that set-up last night for a walk around the block after dinner. The IMR-M6 is primarily a great throw light. It has great spill, but the throw is awesome. I used the 3 17670 holder with 3 protected AW black cells. The only issue I had was my girlfriend was walking with me using a P7 Mag Mod and teasing me about her light being better and more efficient.


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## Patriot

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*



bigchelis said:


> The only issue I had was my girlfriend was walking with me using a P7 Mag Mod and teasing me about her light being better and more efficient.




LOL, it sounds like you've trained her well. Don't you just love good women who talk "flashlight!" :thumbsup:

I still haven't tried the new IMR bulb in the M6 but I think you just pushed me over the edge. I think I'll order that lamp in the morning.


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## Nanomiser

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*

*DM51 *fantastic job on the shootout! :thumbsup: Thanks so much putting this together it has answered all of my questions and so much more. lovecpf

I was having a very similar problem with my MB20 holder and six AW RCR123A cells when running my HO-M6R. They just fit too tight for my comfort level; the holder looked like it was going to fly apart at any moment. After I pried the cells out a few of them also had some indentations left on the negative side and I started to have trouble with their performance as well.  Thanks to AW’s help I finally got these cells out of the 0.00 volt dead zone back to a fully recharged 4.10V using my WF-139 charger. :twothumbs I tried using my Triton2, but it just wouldn’t reset the PCB protection circuit. I will see how these cells behave from here on.

Here I am still messing around with trying to make my HO-M6R work properly and you guys go and turn me on to the IMR-M6 1000. oo: Good thing I just order one of FM’s 3x17670 holders and now I will also have to order a IMR-M6 1000 in the morning.


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## DM51

*Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT*

Thanks, Nanomiser. I think you'll be much happier with the 3x17670s, and you won't risk further damaging your RCRs or the MB20 holder.

This is post #400, so we'll continue in Part 2.


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