# Why don't American companies build lights we want to buy?



## speedsix (Sep 11, 2011)

As far as I know the two big US flashlight makers are Maglight and Surefire. ML hasn't produced a light people want for years and Surefire is stuck with CR123 batteries even though the rest of the world is moving toward AAs and AAAs. 

Specifically I wonder why they don't produce 1AA lights with pocket clips for EDC. I know SF would sell a huge number of them just based on their rep and that they are USA made. ML could regain some of the market share that they lost in recent years if they would step into the modern day and quit holding on to the 1980s. Nobody wants to lug around a 4 D cell monster anymore. 

I sent an email to both of these companies letting them know that I would prefer to buy American and if they offered a 1AA light with pocket clip it would probably sell like hotcakes. My guess is if SF made such a light, it would outsell all there other lights combined and would be a real cash cow if they kept the price below $60 or so. 

I only have one SF light left in my collection and that is my weapon light. I got rid of all the others because of the CR123 batteries. I was tired of running out of them and having to order them or try to find a store that sells them. Not every gas station stocks them like AAs.


----------



## leon2245 (Sep 11, 2011)

speedsix said:


> As far as I know the two big US flashlight makers are Maglight and Surefire. ML hasn't produced a light people want for years and Surefire is stuck with CR123 batteries even though the rest of the world is moving toward AAs and AAAs.
> 
> Specifically I wonder why they don't produce 1AA lights with pocket clips for EDC. I know SF would sell a huge number of them just based on their rep and that they are USA made. ML could regain some of the market share that they lost in recent years if they would step into the modern day and quit holding on to the 1980s. Nobody wants to lug around a 4 D cell monster anymore.
> 
> ...


 
Yeah join the club:
http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?320080-No-AA-lights-from-any-of-the-big-3


>SureFire
>$60



I'm sure you would like that! QUestion is would you pay $200+ for an AA version of the T1A Titan, or nearly as much for an E1L-AA? I'm waiting on the former, & a single AA Mini from MagLite, or at least an LED version of their Solitaire. I think we're getting closer though. IIRC robin24k mentioned something about an upcoming AA from MagLite in the works, & SureFire at least has the 2xAA Outdoorsman for now. Maybe if it's successful enough more will follow. I just think you're dreaming at $60, if you still want it to be American Made... otherwise you always have the "SureFire" Icons in AA's. 


And Peaks (theoretically).


----------



## rmteo (Sep 11, 2011)

They absolutely do - you don't get to be big if you don't. Just perhaps not what *YOU* want. :shakehead


----------



## carrot (Sep 11, 2011)

I don't know what you are talking about. American companies very much build stuff *I* want to buy. Most of my meager collection of lights runs on CR123, and that's not by accident... I won't EDC a light that uses anything else! Understandably some people live in the AA camp... but don't forget, not everyone does.

More importantly, you forgot about a few American companies! Peak, HDS, Malkoff, Arc... 

Not to mention American makers, like McGizmo and Muyshondt.

And American-owned but not American-made: 4sevens, Zebralight...


----------



## leon2245 (Sep 11, 2011)

carrot said:


> I don't know what you are talking about. American companies very much build stuff *I* want to buy. Most of my meager collection of lights runs on CR123, and that's not by accident... I won't EDC a light that uses anything else! Understandably some people live in the AA camp... but don't forget, not everyone does.
> 
> More importantly, you forgot about a few American companies! Peak, HDS, Malkoff, Arc...
> 
> ...


 
... & EagleTac?


----------



## kelmo (Sep 11, 2011)

rmteo said:


> They absolutely do - you don't get to be big if you don't. Just perhaps not what *YOU* want. :shakehead



Roger that! 

If it don't sell it gets scrapped and somewhere out there a marketing team is updating their resumes. Market forces are relentless and unmerciful in our economic system.


----------



## jabe1 (Sep 11, 2011)

To me it depends on whether or not you want showy, gizmo, disco lights, or tools.

The lights I own that I know I can depend on are US made. Surefire and Peak.


----------



## savumaki (Sep 11, 2011)

carrot said:


> I don't know what you are talking about. American companies very much build stuff *I* want to buy. Most of my meager collection of lights runs on CR123, and that's not by accident...* I won't EDC a light that uses anything else!* Understandably some people live in the AA camp... but don't forget, not everyone does.
> 
> More importantly, you forgot about a few American companies! Peak, HDS, Malkoff, Arc...
> 
> ...




Well said.


----------



## red_hackle (Sep 11, 2011)

Personally, I won't go anywhere near an AA powered light - Most of my lights accept 18650 rechargeable batteries, but can also run on CR123 primaries. I have never had one leak on me, they can deliver more current and can be stored for a long period of time...


----------



## FatRat (Sep 11, 2011)

Because american public wont spend over $15 for a light,sad but true.


----------



## shao.fu.tzer (Sep 11, 2011)

I beg to differ... If my life depends on a light, I would prefer it to be built in the US. I've honestly never had an American made light fail on me. I've had some of the "higher end" Chinese lights fail on me at the most inopportune moments. I like to play with and mod cheap bright lights, but when the SHTF, I'm running out the door with at least 2 Surefires loaded with Malkoffs or my own creations, my Peak Logan Brass, and my Arc-AAA. I also keep another AAA battery light and a pair of AA lights in my bag at all times for compatibility reasons if it comes down to a scavenging situation.


----------



## leon2245 (Sep 11, 2011)

> Because american public wont spend over $15 for a light,sad but true.


Just about. Even the OP himself requested his desired SureFire configuration to be priced at $60, less than 1/2 of SureFire's average price. Just not going to happen.


----------



## Wrend (Sep 11, 2011)

FatRat said:


> Because american public wont spend over $15 for a light,sad but true.



I would add to this: Because most people don't know any better, not knowing what quality is, regardless of where something is made. Same is true with batteries, even high quality AAs such as Eneloops.

That being said, there's no real reason a general utility/EDC non-custom made flashlight should cost more than $100, regardless of where it's made.


----------



## firelord777 (Sep 11, 2011)

Most don't know about high powered led, they think of those 9 led lights. Lol


----------



## Robin24k (Sep 11, 2011)

speedsix said:


> As far as I know the two big US flashlight makers are Maglight and Surefire. ML hasn't produced a light people want for years and Surefire is stuck with CR123 batteries even though the rest of the world is moving toward AAs and AAAs.


Don't forget about Streamlight. If a company caters to CPF, which is a small niche enthusiast market, they're not going to do well in the mainstream. Only Chinese companies with low overhead costs can keep up with the constantly changing demands of an enthusiast group (and, do you see those brands on many retail shelves?). Maybe nobody on CPF is interested, but these American companies still sell plenty of lights. When production reaches the level of Maglite, Streamlight, or SureFire, even something as simple as changing the LED suddenly becomes very expensive.



speedsix said:


> Specifically I wonder why they don't produce 1AA lights with pocket clips for EDC. I know SF would sell a huge number of them just based on their rep and that they are USA made. ML could regain some of the market share that they lost in recent years if they would step into the modern day and quit holding on to the 1980s. Nobody wants to lug around a 4 D cell monster anymore.


Smaller isn't necessarily better, especially for professional use. Larger lights have longer runtime and are easier to operate. I tend to use mid-sized lights like the Stinger DS LED more often, and keep my smaller lights (ie. Streamlight ProTac 1AA) as backups.

Take the new Maglite ML125 for example. It wouldn't be unrealistic to say that CPF would complain about its 186 lumens, large size/weight, donut hole when unfocused, plastic window, type II anodize, etc. At one point, the ML125 was planned to have 330 lumens, but runtime is a priority for a duty light, so the XP-G wasn't driven as hard in production models. Had it been 330 lumens, runtime would probably be around 2 to 3 hours. At 186 lumens, runtime is 8.5 hours.

330 lumens might make the light more interesting for enthusiasts, but how noticeable would it really be? I find it annoying to charge lights frequently so I would prefer longer runtime, and plus, I don't even use them as heavily as the targeted market (law enforcement).

On a final note, what you're describing here doesn't just happen to flashlight enthusiasts, the same goes for computers, RC toys, and more. If you're a hobbyist, mass market just doesn't cut it anymore. Perhaps you need to re-evaluate your requirements for a flashlight, or turn to specialized builders.



carrot said:


> More importantly, you forgot about a few American companies! Peak, HDS, Malkoff, Arc...
> 
> Not to mention American makers, like McGizmo and Muyshondt.


I believe he's referring to large companies and mass production. These companies fall into enthusiast builders or small-run production. Their manufacturing capabilities are limited.


----------



## mattevt (Sep 11, 2011)

To the contrary, I prefer lights that run on CR123's; more output and runtime. I just buy in bulk from Battery Junction.


----------



## Cascade Hops (Sep 11, 2011)

All of my flashlights run on CR123's . I have no interest in AA's or AAA's .


----------



## Swedpat (Sep 11, 2011)

mattevt said:


> To the contrary, I prefer lights that run on CR123's; more output and runtime. I just buy in bulk from Battery Junction.



I do the same. The Titanium double and triple pack I find an excellent idea!


----------



## Danielsan (Sep 11, 2011)

Im with Eneloops, sold all CR123 lights. The thing is i feel not comfortable with Li/ion and Eneloops can be used in other electronical devices as well. To buy CR123 Batteries is a no go for me. You cant always buy new CR123 batteries once in a week, when you have a bike light or a headlamp for reading books your batteries last only some days, to use CR123 would be madness. Maglite do the XL200, so they offer a modern light, they just need to make it smaller and slimmer. When they do a small and slim 1xAA with 200 Lumens, real glas lens i will maybe buy one.


----------



## richpalm (Sep 11, 2011)

speedsix said:


> Nobody wants to lug around a 4 D cell monster anymore.
> 
> I only have one SF light left in my collection and that is my weapon light. I got rid of all the others because of the CR123 batteries. I was tired of running out of them and having to order them or try to find a store that sells them. Not every gas station stocks them like AAs.



Sure I do! I use a 3 or 4 cell modded Mag for walks.

I quit on 123's also. Rechargeables only.

Rich


----------



## uknewbie (Sep 11, 2011)

Why doesn't Maglite ditch the D cell and produce good multi cell AA lights? Good question. Maybe because they can still sell their old stuff and doing so is cheaper.

_Also, in the USA people would want to run AA lights on the cheapest (oh, and Chinese) AA cells they could find, and then the output and/or run time would be terrible._

As for Surefire, well they can just produce anything they like, say it is "the world's finest illumination tool" and people, especially in the USA, will flock to spend $800 on it.


----------



## carrot (Sep 11, 2011)

Robin24k said:


> I believe he's referring to large companies and mass production. These companies fall into enthusiast builders or small-run production. Their manufacturing capabilities are limited.


 What does it matter to us if their manufacturing capabilities are limited? They still can produce what we want, at reasonable prices we're willing to pay, and offer as good or better customer service.


----------



## AutoTech (Sep 11, 2011)

I was thinking about this the other day, more regarding maglite and why they don't just start producing a larger range of cree lights. Everyone that collects cree lights and doesn't have a maglite because they think they're rubbish would suddenly have to get one. I know they do a small cree light but it's a pretty poor performer from what I've seen, probably because they don't want to make a small light that totally negates their entire collection of incandescent lights.

Seems strange to me really, especially after joining here and seeing how many people just buy cree lights for nothing more than collections (myself included.. Up to 10 now, 6 of those bought in the last week after since here)


----------



## speedsix (Sep 11, 2011)

My point is, Maglight was huge 15-20 years ago. They must have have had a large % of the market share in the late 1980s to early 1990s. Everyone I knew carried one or had one or two of them. I only know a couple of people that use them now. Same is true for Surfire. 5-10 years ago most people I knew had moved to something from Surfire like the 6P (which was around $60 BTW) and they were happy because it was the best at the time. Now you can buy a $12.00 Rominsen that runs on 1AA that is brighter than any ML and brighter than the common Surefire lights like the G2 or 6P plus it never needs a new bulb because it is led and batteries last longer and are cheaper. 

Is a $12.00 Rominsen as good as an old ML or SF? No, it is better. My Maglights and Surefires sways burned out bulbs and left me with no light. My Surefires with the silly twist cap were prone to being bumped on in my bag which burned out the batteries. 

I remember getting a Surefire G2 and being amazed at how much smaller, brighter and better it was than my old 3 C cell Maglight. When I got the Rominsen ( my first decent LED light that was not cheap junk) I had the same feeling toward the Surefire. It was smaller, brighter and worked better. I just kind of wish that some American company would step up and be the next Surefire rather than see millions of Chinese lights being sold. 

CR123s are a deal breaker for most people because it is a specialty battery. For most people buying a light that takes a different battery than everything else they have doesn't make sense. 99% of the public just want a light to use, they are avid light hobbiests. The fact that Maglight and Surefire dont seem to grasp this doesn't bode well for them. They will be sidelined in a few years and some other company will take a huge part of their market share just because they are slow to advance or change.


----------



## LEDninja (Sep 11, 2011)

speedsix said:


> As far as I know the two big US flashlight makers are Maglight and Surefire.


There are other companies like Streamlight, UK, pelican.



speedsix said:


> ML hasn't produced a light people want for years


The light people want is the plastic 2D incan.
The 2nd most popular light is the 6V lantern.
Maglight is #3. They outsell Fenix thousands to one. Forget about the tiny shops like 4sevens, Nitecore, Olight, etc, etc, etc.
Only flashaholics think Maglight is out of date.



speedsix said:


> Specifically I wonder why they don't produce 1AA lights with pocket clips for EDC. I know SF would sell a huge number of them just based on their rep and that they are USA made. ML could regain some of the market share that they lost in recent years if they would step into the modern day and quit holding on to the 1980s. Nobody wants to lug around a 4 D cell monster anymore.


LEDs need 3.4-3.6V to operate properly.
1AA 1.2-1.5V. You need to pay for a strong boost circuit to get light out of 1AA.
ML has gone 3AAA for their small lights. 3.6-4.5V do not need a boost circuit.
The MagLED 2D out throws the MagLED 3D. No need to carry around a 4D Mag anymore.



speedsix said:


> I sent an email to both of these companies letting them know that I would prefer to buy American and if they offered a 1AA light with pocket clip it would probably sell like hotcakes. My guess is if SF made such a light, it would outsell all there other lights combined and would be a real cash cow if they kept the price below $60 or so.


Surefire have been experimenting with 1AA in the ICON range. 
ML makes millions of every model. Finding millions of customers willing to pay $60 is hard. Until ML figures how to make a 1AA in the $25 range you probably won't see any. Remember US wages are much higher than in China. A $60 Quark AA would cost $120+ if built in the USA.



speedsix said:


> and Surefire is stuck with CR123 batteries even though the rest of the world is moving toward AAs and AAAs. ...
> ...I only have one SF light left in my collection and that is my weapon light. I got rid of all the others because of the CR123 batteries. I was tired of running out of them and having to order them or try to find a store that sells them. Not every gas station stocks them like AAs.


Surefire started out making laser sights for SWAT. At the request of LAPD SWAT they developed a light that took the recoil of a shotgun for the 1980 Olympics. (There were no power LEDs until this century.) Then they worked on the pistol lights. It takes 4AA to equal 2CR123A in voltage. Try and hang a 4AA torch under your pistol. To make it simple for SWAT and especially the special forces Surefire standardized on CR123A. As Surefire is now starting to cater to outdoors people they are changing and introduced 2AA lights. As they have designed 1AA ICON lights 1AA will follow. As their main customer is still the military Surefire tends to follow military development procedures.
_(I remember a case where a concept of a tank came up. 10 years later the design was complete. 20 years later they built a prototype. 30 years later production started rolling. Unless there is a war going on and something needed to be built right away military development takes their sweet assed time.)_
Patience grasshopper!

BTW most Chinese companies are not pushing 1AA torches. They are going 18650.


----------



## gcbryan (Sep 11, 2011)

My take on this would be why worry that your flashlight isn't made in the US when just about everything else you own and buy isn't made in the US either? When they figure out how to profitably make TV set in the US again then maybe they'll tackle the flashlight issue.

Regarding your specific question. Maglite isn't really in the business of making cutting edge lights for hobbyists. Target isn't in the business of supplying cutting edge clothes for the fashion conscious. They're doing well however.


----------



## speedsix (Sep 11, 2011)

Maglight may out sell Fenix and others but there are dozens of Fenix type companies and added together they are stealing market share. That market share should and could belong to an American company or at least some of it could. Why leave so much money on the table? 

Maybe I am wrong but I really think if ML and SF would make a few AA and AAA lights in one and two cell format, they would really be rewarded for their effort. 

I don't know too many people who would be willing to spend $60 for a AAA "key chain" light but a decent AA that performed like the better led lights now made would surely open some eyes in the public. My brother didn't even know lights like my Rominsen existed and was blown away. There are even better lights out there with more power. My Zebralighit H51 was amazing for the size. It was only $60 and I would be willing to pay much more for if it had the quality of a Surefire and I could count on it when the chips were down.


----------



## Tempest UK (Sep 11, 2011)

The number of CPFers buying their products would suggest that SureFire does make light "we" want to buy...


----------



## uknewbie (Sep 11, 2011)

speedsix said:


> Maybe I am wrong but I really think if ML and SF would make a few AA and AAA lights in one and two cell format, they would really be rewarded for their effort.


 
How so? People would just but the new lights they then made instead of the current ones, and half decent lights like you describe would have less profit margin than the things they sell just now. Only people that would be happier would be the consumers, not anyone in the company.

If I could run a company producing cheap stuff without really needing to upgrade and people still bought it, and make a lot of money, why would I change this?


----------



## Monocrom (Sep 11, 2011)

I'm happy with the nearly two dozen SureFire lights I own. 

I plan to pick up both an N-cell, and a AAA Peak in the near future. Very happy with my Peak Eiger penlight.

I no longer buy [email protected], but only because I don't want to support a company run by such a ridiculously sue-happy individual who, apparently, genuinely believes that he invented every flashlight innovation that exists in the world. I do believe in supporting American business, but not to the extent of supporting one blindly by looking the other way; just because it's based in America.

I used to do that. My first car was a used Ford Escort. No anti-lock brakes. Had I bought a cheaper Hyundai Elantra with standard anti-lock brakes, I'd still be driving it. The brakes on my Ford Escort locked up and it was totaled when a guy in a mini-van side-swiped me into the stone wall of an exit ramp. 

Look for what you need from American companies. If they don't make it or have it, nothing wrong with looking elsewhere.


----------



## rmteo (Sep 11, 2011)

speedsix said:


> ....Maybe I am wrong but I really think if ML and SF would make a few AA and AAA lights in one and two cell format, they would really be rewarded for their effort.


Again, they absolutely do. And have been doing so for many, many years. Have you seen these? Walk into any of the many thousands of Wal-Mart, Target, Sears, K-Mart, Home Depot, Lowes, etc. stores and you will find them.


----------



## JacobJones (Sep 11, 2011)

It doesn't bother me that American companies don't make lights I want to buy because Asian manufacturers cater to my every need, and at reasonable prices. I used to be one of the people who thought made in china meant crap untill I got a fenix ld20 and realised I shouldnt listen to the lies of biased nationalists. Now I always try to buy chinese when I can, I like to think my money is helping a poor Chinese man feed his wife and children, not helping somebody in the western world buy that 42 inch tv


----------



## Bullzeyebill (Sep 11, 2011)

Let's keep on topic here. The thread title is, Why don't American companies build lights we want to buy? No more comments about Chinese vs US lights. We have had several threads re that topic and many went very sour.

Bill


----------



## JacobJones (Sep 11, 2011)

You are absolutely right, let's not get this thread closed.

I really don't know why American companies insist on making lights with outdated emitters and lithium batteries. I think that if maglite made some small Cree lights they may be able to regain the some of the market and reputation that they have lost over the years, I've been waiting for a Cree solitaire for several years now and i'm sure many others have too.


----------



## brembo (Sep 11, 2011)

JacobJones said:


> You are absolutely right, let's not get this thread closed.
> 
> I really don't know why American companies insist on making lights with outdated emitters and lithium batteries..



What's wrong with lithium cells? They have some very compelling advantages over alkaline, NiCad and NiMH. Not saying they are the best all the time, tho in some applications lithium cells are superior.


----------



## CamoNinja (Sep 11, 2011)

Your money isn't going to the poor. It goes to the rich leaders.



JacobJones said:


> It doesn't bother me that American companies don't make lights I want to buy because Asian manufacturers cater to my every need, and at reasonable prices. I used to be one of the people who thought made in china meant crap untill I got a fenix ld20 and realised I shouldnt listen to the lies of biased nationalists. Now I always try to buy chinese when I can, I like to think my money is helping a poor Chinese man feed his wife and children, not helping somebody in the western world buy that 42 inch tv


----------



## PayBack (Sep 11, 2011)

lol it cracks me up the number of times I see people saying "If I use anything but an american light I'll die!!! My life depends on a flashlight!" Sure there are cops etc who use lights in life or death situations, but you're more likely to be struck by lightning than have your light fail just at the wrong time unless you go for a D grade knock off.

FYI I'd never touch an American light. I had one fail on me once so I'll never touch any american brand again ever (hmmm that sounds kind of silly doesn't it... regardless of what country the light came from). Almost makes me sound biggoted.

And yes AA's leak... but CR123's explode!! Neither has happened to me. Well I had an AA leak in a remote I'd not used for 8 years but hey, who's fault is that.

What's truely amazing is the thread hasn't been locked yet. *hides*


----------



## uknewbie (Sep 11, 2011)

PayBack said:


> lol it cracks me up the number of times I see people saying "If I use anything but an american light I'll die!!! My life depends on a flashlight!" Sure there are cops etc who use lights in life or death situations, but you're more likely to be struck by lightning than have your light fail just at the wrong time unless you go for a D grade knock off.
> 
> FYI I'd never touch an American light. I had one fail on me once so I'll never touch any american brand again ever (hmmm that sounds kind of silly doesn't it... regardless of what country the light came from).
> 
> What's truely amazing is the thread hasn't been locked yet. *hides*


 
Well said. Btw, I am a cop, and use a Jetbeam light at work, without fail.


----------



## ganymede (Sep 11, 2011)

Why don't American companies build lights we want to buy? Because "we" only represent a very small portion of their entire business.


----------



## JacobJones (Sep 11, 2011)

brembo said:


> What's wrong with lithium cells? They have some very compelling advantages over alkaline, NiCad and NiMH. Not saying they are the best all the time, tho in some applications lithium cells are superior.


 
There's nothing wrong with lithium cells. Just thinking that surefire could do a range of AA or AAA lights for a more general market, people who want tough high quality American lights without worrying about losing a few fingers or their house and batteries that are cheap and easy to find.


----------



## Robin24k (Sep 11, 2011)

brembo said:


> What's wrong with lithium cells? They have some very compelling advantages over alkaline, NiCad and NiMH. Not saying they are the best all the time, tho in some applications lithium cells are superior.


Price. How expensive are Energizer Lithiums? They're about the same price as an Eneloop, and can only be used once. If you're referring to lithium CR123, they are also dangerous (especially in multi-cell configurations).


----------



## PhillyRube (Sep 11, 2011)

Why doesn't Streamlight build a light that doesn't eat expensive battery packs once a year, regardless if you use or don't use the light. Pure trash!!!


----------



## Monocrom (Sep 12, 2011)

I have more CR123-based lights than I can count, started buying them up about 6 years ago. Use them all the time. 

Number of explosions I've encountered: Zero.

Just like the Gremlins movie, as long as you follow just a handful of basic rules when it comes to these cells, you'll be fine. No explosions, no vent with flame; none of that. Folks usually get into trouble when they decide to save every last cent, instead of following the rules. 

As for light failures, I've had that happen to me a handful of times. Never been struck by lightening. Worst failure was indeed with a high-end light that generally enjoys a very good reputation here on CPF. That's why you always carry at least one back-up light, if not more.


----------



## JacobJones (Sep 12, 2011)

Monocrom said:


> Just like the Gremlins movie, as long as you follow just a handful of basic rules when it comes to these cells, you'll be fine.


 
Never feed them after midnight?

Joking aside I don't think it's a good idea for the average person to he using lithiums and Li-ions.
Most won't take the dangers seriously and risk hurting themselves


----------



## PayBack (Sep 12, 2011)

Monocrom said:


> I
> As for light failures, I've had that happen to me a handful of times. Never been struck by lightening.



Note I said you have more chance of being struck by lightening than have a light fail just when it's failure would result in your death... so unless this post is from beyond the grave my point still stands 

While not a cop like uknewbie, I am a police emplyee (with about 9,000 front like cops) and have never once in my carreer heard of anyone snuffing it with a dead torch in their hand.


----------



## LightJaguar (Sep 12, 2011)

Maybe because most Americans want cheap lights that cost lest then $10 dollars. Its not a fluke that Walmart and Target are so big and popular. I think that American manufacturers have pretty much given up on the American market (except for maybe maglite) that wants cheap things that only very poor people in China would be willing to make for very low pay. 
Today I got some Surefires at a local store for around $40 each. It was a killer deal and got some nice flashlights that are not made anymore. I can already see it years from now people wondering why they don't make quality lights like they used too. I already know that incan Surefire are on Sale everywhere but faked ignorance and asked the guys at the store why they were so cheap. He told me that they are losing money on the sale and that their profit margin is very low on SF. He told me that they were making space for Fenix lights. Funny while I was buying the lights a Hispanic guy came in and saw the commotion that I was causing. He bought a SF too after seeing that they were on sale. He asked me if I sold them or if I collected them. I told him that I collected them. He told me that he collected knifes and was looking into buying a SF but that they were too expensive. He ended up buying a G2L and was dishearten when he saw that I took the last G2Z cause he wanted one too.
I think Surefire is concentrating on the Military and LEO market were there is still demand for quality lights. 
I have a coworker who admires Surefire but doesn't buy one cause of their high price. Instead he likes to show his Harbor freight LED lights that he got for free. I told him about the SF sale going on right now and he expressed interest but hasn't bought one.


----------



## DM51 (Sep 12, 2011)

Good and interesting post there by LightJaguar ^.

Some other posts have gravitated to a discussion of CR123 vs. AA cells, and the perceived safety issues with Lithium-based batteries. While battery type is one factor affecting sales of lights, particularly those of one major US manufacturer (SureFire), it is not the only factor and it would not be appropriate to labor the point any further in this thread. 

Discussions of batteries belong in the Batteries section. Please refer to one of the many threads in that section, or start a new one there.


----------



## gcbryan (Sep 12, 2011)

Companies (American or otherwise) do what is profitable for them to do and we should do the same. If something is a good product or a good deal buy it because it's benefiting you in some way. 

If everyone does that then the best products or the best deals with be rewarded and the others will go away.

There's no point rewarding an American company by paying too much. What kind of message is that sending. Money in your pocket is better than money in someone else's pocket.

Worrying that the average American doesn't want to pay as much for a "quality" flashlight as you do is a waste of time. Why should anyone pay more for anything than they have to anyway? Everyone generally benefits more in a low inflationary environment.

All this talk about a light I can trust my life on is nonsense anyway. "Quality" has nothing to do with price either. "Luxury" is another matter. That generally does depend on price.

The military doesn't buy quality. They just generate bureaucratic requirements that drive up the costs and profit margins for the winning supplier.

The time to worry is when no company makes what you want.


----------



## Lou Minescence (Sep 12, 2011)

4 Sevens is an American company making flashlights we want to buy. They happen to be manufactured in China. 
I wonder what percentage of a flashlight made anywhere in the world are domestic or foreign parts. Chinese light with American emitter. How about the raw materials for a US light ?


----------



## LEDninja (Sep 12, 2011)

The danger of exploding lithium batteries is not a problem with 1*CR123A torches like the Surefire E1B with a primary battery. No mismatched cell danger. No overcharge / over-discharge danger with non-rechargeable batteries. Surefire does not run their lights where over-current is a problem.


----------



## davecroft (Sep 12, 2011)

The question is, why should they? Flashlight enthusiasts and specialist users make up a tiny percentage of the public. Last month a colleague got a mini Maglite AAA in a presentation box from his wife. He was over the moon with it, treating it like it was some sort of special jewel. Like 99% of the population in the UK he has never heard of or seen a Fenix or a Nitecore etc (and I'm not whipping mine out just to do a bit of showing off!)
Look at the feedback on Amazon for Maglite. Most purchasers love them ('perfect beam' 'good quality' 'the Swiss Army Knife of flashlights' 'fantastic quality brand' etc). They have an excellent reputation among the general public who have no awareness (at least in the UK) that there is anything better out there.


----------



## the.Mtn.Man (Sep 12, 2011)

speedsix said:


> As far as I know the two big US flashlight makers are Maglight and Surefire. ML hasn't produced a light people want for years and Surefire is stuck with CR123 batteries even though the rest of the world is moving toward AAs and AAAs.


 
I'm not sure what you're getting at here because both companies are undeniably successful and sell thousands of lights a year.


----------



## NOREAT (Sep 12, 2011)

Missed word in quoted passage, deleted as irrelivent.
(Moderator, if you could remove this post entirely, I would appreciate it)


----------



## NOREAT (Sep 12, 2011)

davecroft said:


> Look at the feedback on Amazon for Maglite. Most purchasers love them ('perfect beam' 'good quality' 'the Swiss Army Knife of flashlights' 'fantastic quality brand' etc). They have an excellent reputation among the general public who have no awareness (at least in the UK) that there is anything better out there.


That was me a year ago!


----------



## rmteo (Sep 12, 2011)

the.Mtn.Man said:


> I'm not sure what you're getting at here because both companies are undeniably successful and sell thousands of lights a year.


 MAG probably does at least 5+ million lights a year.


----------



## the.Mtn.Man (Sep 12, 2011)

Yeah, that "thousands" should have probably read "millions".


----------



## Robin24k (Sep 12, 2011)

Lou Minescence said:


> 4 Sevens is an American company making flashlights we want to buy. They happen to be manufactured in China.


I would hesitate to call them an American company. Yes, technically they are, but it's just a couple employees in the US and the majority of the operation is outsourced to an ODM. It's embarassing when a company takes advantage of their HQ location to be an American company, but in reality they don't have much to do with Americans at all.



Lou Minescence said:


> I wonder what percentage of a flashlight made anywhere in the world are domestic or foreign parts. Chinese light with American emitter. How about the raw materials for a US light ?


Cree makes LEDs in both US and China, so your Chinese-made light is probably 100% Made in China. It's hard to say where the LED for a US-made light comes from (for example, SureFire uses US XR-E, and Streamlight uses China XR-E), especially as there are no visible differences in newer LEDs.


----------



## gallonoffuel (Sep 12, 2011)

Robin24k said:


> I would hesitate to call them an American company. Yes, technically they are, but it's just a couple employees in the US and the majority of the operation is outsourced to an ODM. It's embarassing when a company takes advantage of their HQ location to be an American company, but in reality they don't have much to do with Americans at all.


 
Same with Eagletac. Although they are much more bold about it. Read the first line in their 'About EagleTac' section on the website. 

To the OP, American companies make EVERY light I want to buy.


----------



## NOREAT (Sep 12, 2011)

Post deleted and saved for record. Not pertinent to thread. Keep on topic.


----------



## Lou Minescence (Sep 12, 2011)

Robin24k said:


> I would hesitate to call them an American company. Yes, technically they are, but it's just a couple employees in the US and the majority of the operation is outsourced to an ODM. It's embarassing when a company takes advantage of their HQ location to be an American company, but in reality they don't have much to do with Americans at all.
> 
> 
> Cree makes LEDs in both US and China, so your Chinese-made light is probably 100% Made in China. It's hard to say where the LED for a US-made light comes from (for example, SureFire uses US XR-E, and Streamlight uses China XR-E), especially as there are no visible differences in newer LEDs.


 
The only unaswered question is where do the raw materials come from for our domestic lights ? The lithium for the domestic batteries ?

What I am getting at is it is very much a world market as far as manufacturing. Most of these " Chinese lights " are based on American innovation. 

Speaking for myself, one holdback on buying Surefire is I like to use rechargeable batteries. The less batteries in landfills, the better.


----------



## Grizzlyb (Sep 12, 2011)

LightJaguar said:


> I think Surefire is concentrating on the Military and LEO market were there is still demand for quality lights.
> .


They will have to do better then. I am in the LEO market. We bought 100 SF E2e in 2008, about 20 won't function anymore. Same time we bought 20 pcs of a well known Chines brand, only 1 fail. 
Now we are in the market of buying over 50pcs more this year and 3000 pcs in 2012. The Chinese brand has 5 times the lumens, has special features according to our needs, and not even half the price. 
Needles to say that it won't be SF.
So, it will probably come donw to price/quality, and now days the Chinese are getting hard to beat in quality.
BTW it will have 18650's and never AA or AAA's.


----------



## gallonoffuel (Sep 12, 2011)

Grizzlyb said:


> They will have to do better then. I am in the LEO market. We bought 100 SF E2e in 2008, about 20 won't function anymore. Same time we bought 20 pcs of a well known Chines brand, only 1 fail.
> Now we are in the market of buying over 50pcs more this year and 3000 pcs in 2012. The Chinese brand has 5 times the lumens, has special features according to our needs, and not even half the price.
> Needles to say that it won't be SF.
> So, it will probably come donw to price/quality, and now days the Chinese are getting hard to beat in quality.
> BTW it will have 18650's and never AA or AAA's.


 
Are they an apples to apples comparison? An incan light will always be less reliable then an LED, by their nature. Also, did you try customer service? How was your warranty experience with SF vs this unnamed chinese company?


----------



## Roger999 (Sep 12, 2011)

JacobJones said:


> Never feed them after midnight?
> 
> Joking aside I don't think it's a good idea for the average person to he using lithiums and Li-ions.
> Most won't take the dangers seriously and risk hurting themselves


 What about the average person using a Camera running on CR123 cells 2inches from their eye? or the person with a SF Saint with a CR123 behind his head? or the Soldier with a SF HL-1 mounted next to their head? or with the M952/M962 running CR123s next to their hand and the AN/PEQ 15/16 next to their hand?

Don't mix in old/used batteries with new batteries, done, finito.


----------



## NOREAT (Sep 12, 2011)

NOREAT said:


> Post deleted and saved for record. Not pertinent to thread. Keep on topic.


 Thank you, I'll try.


SpeedSix:
Would you consider the new lights from SF, (UNR, UAR, R1, UB3T etc.), as something you would not want to buy?


----------



## gcbryan (Sep 12, 2011)

Robin24k said:


> I would hesitate to call them an American company. Yes, technically they are, but it's just a couple employees in the US and the majority of the operation is outsourced to an ODM. It's embarassing when a company takes advantage of their HQ location to be an American company, but in reality they don't have much to do with Americans at all.
> ...


 
What's embarrassing about someone who lives in the U.S. starting a company with manufacturing outsourced to China? That's not a Chinese company when the owner lives in the U.S..

There are very few companies that get no labor or materials from outside their own country.

What difference would it make anyway. How many people in the U.S. want a job turning out flashlights?


----------



## carrot (Sep 12, 2011)

gcbryan said:


> What's embarrassing about an *AMERICAN* who lives in the U.S. starting a company with manufacturing outsourced to China? That's not a Chinese company when the owner lives in the U.S..
> 
> There are very few companies that get no labor or materials from outside their own country.


Fixed that for ya


----------



## gcbryan (Sep 13, 2011)

carrot said:


> Fixed that for ya



If he was from Ireland would it be any different?


----------



## nbp (Sep 13, 2011)

American companies build almost every light I want to buy. Most of the others have been sold off and replaced by lights from US manufacturers, both large and small.


----------



## Monocrom (Sep 13, 2011)

gcbryan said:


> . . . How many people in the U.S. want a job turning out flashlights?


 
Have you seen the economy lately? I'd say you'd be able to find a ton and a half of folks who would be more than happy to have a decent-paying job. Especially if they've been unemployed for a few months. Then there's the people who would work the phones in the customer service dept., the Americans who would have jobs as executives, and so on. 

Nothing wrong with an American who decides to open up his own business in the world of lights. Does that automatically make his company an American one? No. 

A Toyota Camry built in an American plant by American workers is an American car. Doesn't matter that Toyota is based in Japan. American workers are the ones who benefit. Let's take an American company. GM has their iconic Chevy Impala model built in Mexico, by Mexican workers. Is it an American car? I don't think so. The Camry built in America is far more American than the Impala that is built in Mexico. 

Another way of looking at it . . . I have a Paralegal diploma. It's genuine. But I haven't had an interest in practicing that aspect of the Law in years. Technically, I'm just as much of a paralegal as the guy who has worked at the same law firm in that role, for over a decade. From a practical perspective though, obviously I'm not. Just one in name only.

Nothing wrong with buying an Impala. But if you do, and you want to support American business, just realize you're supporting the business; and not actual American workers.


----------



## gcbryan (Sep 13, 2011)

If you buy the best product for you then the rest will take care of itself. Would you buy an inferior product because it was made by American workers? That's not really helping anyone in the long run.

If American workers are making the best product then it's not necessary for you (or anyone else) to have to figure out if it's made by American workers. You're just buying the best product. Non-Americans will buy the best product as well. That's the only sustainable way.


----------



## whiteoakjoe (Sep 13, 2011)

Streamlight is probably selling more of the microstreams than all Jetbeam's total U.S. sales combined. I just don't want one.


----------



## Monocrom (Sep 13, 2011)

gcbryan said:


> If you buy the best product for you then the rest will take care of itself. Would you buy an inferior product because it was made by American workers? That's not really helping anyone in the long run.
> 
> If American workers are making the best product then it's not necessary for you (or anyone else) to have to figure out if it's made by American workers. You're just buying the best product. Non-Americans will buy the best product as well. That's the only sustainable way.



If I want a certain product, and I can get my needs met by either an American company or one that isn't; I'll go for the former every time. It's only if I cannot have that need met by an American company that I'll look elsewhere. 

However, it's not always about having the best product or building the best product. There are aspects that tend to muddy the waters. I won't get into some of the more controversial ones. (I don't want this topic getting locked.) Let's just say they're out there and we're aware of them. A less controversial one would be marketing. 

For example, if I asked you the name of the German pen company that makes excellent quality, high-end, handmade, pens; you'd say MontBlanc.

It would be the wrong answer. But such is the power of marketing. It isn't about "Make the best product and people will buy it." If that were true, then only the most intelligent people would be filthy rich. Personally, I've met more than a few wealthy individuals whose only real talent was taking advantage of others, and getting rich because of it.


----------



## Grizzlyb (Sep 13, 2011)

I should not go this path, but a short explanation about buying oversea's. 

I used to be a bit ignorant when it came to names and brands. So I went with the brand that was recommended by the " specialists". In the end it turned out to be the brand he made the best profit. 
So I learned to do it the hard way. Test and trial myself. An extra problem with lights is, We live outside the US and don't produce good lights in our country, or even continent. 

Ever tried to get service outside the US from a US company? Well, lets say it a bit harder then expected. Probably they have a great service in the US, but the rest of the world is a to small a place to bother. (nothing wrong there, probably goes the same around with Europe company's that sell stuff to the US) There is a big piece of water between the 2 shores, that make communications and delivery bit more difficult. 

About the question on the batteries'. 
The Lithium CR123a have a great shelf time. So, for the back-up it is a great battery. I have them laying around for Years doing nothing, but being ready to be used. 
Normally the 18650 are used on a daily base. The CR123a's are there for the backup. If the 18650 start loosing power, I order new. The CR123a's hardly see any functional time.


----------



## gcbryan (Sep 13, 2011)

Monocrom said:


> If I want a certain product, and I can get my needs met by either an American company or one that isn't; I'll go for the former every time. It's only if I cannot have that need met by an American company that I'll look elsewhere.
> 
> However, it's not always about having the best product or building the best product. There are aspects that tend to muddy the waters. I won't get into some of the more controversial ones. (I don't want this topic getting locked.) Let's just say they're out there and we're aware of them. A less controversial one would be marketing.
> 
> ...



When I'm talking about the best product I'm talking about the best product for you. That may be something that is adequate and is very cheap or it may be something that performs exceptionally well or however you define your wants at the time.

I quit buying America cars because they were crap (to me). It had nothing to do with marketing. I paid much less for a Toyota and it last much longer and with no surprises. That would be one example. I'd rather have a few extra thousand dollars in my pocket rather than the pocket of someone in Detroit.

I don't mind helping to send someone from Tokyo's kid to school as long as I got the best product (for me).

Everyone else agreed since people outside Japan continue to buy Toyota's (recent issues notwithstanding).

If an American product is well made and priced then I will buy that as well and people from other countries will buy that as well. So the key is to making a good product. If you do everyone will buy it. If you don't on those who "buy American" will buy it and they won't exactly be helping anyone really since it's sending the wrong message..buy because it's American rather than because you've got it right and it's a good product.


----------



## Grizzlyb (Sep 13, 2011)

gallonoffuel said:


> Are they an apples to apples comparison? An incan light will always be less reliable then an LED, by their nature. Also, did you try customer service? How was your warranty experience with SF vs this unnamed chinese company?


Don't jump to conclusions, It is apples and apples.
It had nothing to do with incan vs led.
It was pure mecanics (switch fail) and the unnamed had only 1 same fail.
Customer Service does not exsist outside US. I just had to buy many failing switches over and over again.
I still have about 10 laying around broken. The rest I through away.


----------



## Roger999 (Sep 14, 2011)

Grizzlyb said:


> Don't jump to conclusions, It is apples and apples.
> It had nothing to do with incan vs led.
> It was pure mecanics (switch fail) and the unnamed had only 1 same fail.
> Customer Service does not exsist outside US. I just had to buy many failing switches over and over again.
> I still have about 10 laying around broken. The rest I through away.


 I'm in Australia, I emailed Surefire about a stiff tailcap and got a new tailcap within 10 days. Best customer service I've seen.

And what is the Surefire light you have owned that has had the tailcap fail over 10 times?


----------



## DM51 (Sep 14, 2011)

This a is a pretty bad thread. Members have failed to stay on topic, and there have been tangential arguments about AA vs. CR123, US vs. China, LED vs. Incan, protectionism vs. free trade, etc., etc. 

When a thread can't stay on topic, there's no point in persevering with it. It's closed.


----------

