# How many lumens does it take to REALLY mess up an attacker?



## Ligament (Mar 9, 2006)

Of course I would not rely on a flashlight for defense, but just how many lumens does it take to really, painfully knock out somebody's night vision? I'm thinking of a 500lumen weapon light..got a 120lumen surefire that is not bright enough.


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## Lee1959 (Mar 9, 2006)

If its relatively dark, any semi-bright light, even the lowly much maligned Minimag, if shined directly into the eyes of an attacker unexpectedly will effectively destroy their night vision long enough for you to cut and run, or use your primary line of self defense I think. One thing ot remember however, is to close your eyes prior to flashing, or it could also wreck your night vision also and you loose whatever tactical edge it gave. Of course the brighter the light the larger purple ballons they will see for a longer time period. If your 120 lumen surefire is not enough to do the job, something is wrong I say personally. Time to change batteries as that should be enough to disable any intruders night vision.

All you should ever rely upon a light for is an edge, to make an escape or bring another more effective method of self defense into play.


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## beezaur (Mar 9, 2006)

If you are looking for wincing-pain-can't-even-look type reactions, you need more than the 225 lumens that my SureFire M3-CB puts out. It is starting to get there though. Maybe an M3T as a minimum (more intense spot).

Scott


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## Ice (Mar 9, 2006)

You all are overlooking the most decisive thing:
My understanding is that lumen is a measure of the overall light output. It should be clear that for your purpose only the light shining in one's eyes is what counts, so you will need -above all- a light with a good, *tight focus*. I have a SureFire E1L (KL1 head, new generation) which outputs only about 30 lumens but has a very narrow focus. I'm sure that at night it will make someone blind for quite some seconds! I also have an U2, which outputs about 4 times the lumens the E1L does, but since it has a wider focus I guess it would be "only" about as good as the E1L at blinding someone.


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## NeonLights (Mar 9, 2006)

It's all relative. Different people will react differently, and different amounts of ambient light will require different levels of lumens. A stock Minimag might be enough in total darkness. You also have to make sure to hit the guy on the first blast of light. If you're using a tight beam (like a SF M4 or M6) and the person you're trying to disorient is very far away, you might not hit him in the eyes right off, and he may have time to look away and/or shield his eyes. Never depend on any light as a reliable means of self-defense. Sometimes it might work like you intend, sometimes you might end up on the ground bleeding. Think of a flashlight as a tool, not a weapon.

The real answer to the question "How many lumens does it take to REALLY mess up an attacker?" would be something along the lines of "how many lumens does the muzzle blast of a .45 handgun put out at night?"

-Keith


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## Ice (Mar 9, 2006)

@ NeonLights:
Well, of course with a narrow beam it is more difficult to hit the eyes at first try (and also at close distances, since there the beam is still very small), that's true... 
Therefore I have been "target practicing" a little with my E1L, something I'm sure every flashaholic would enjoy doing as well! :naughty:


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## beezaur (Mar 9, 2006)

Sorry if this is a little off topic:

When HIDs are described as "instant strike," how instant is "instant?" Can you get one up to power fast enough to use in a tactical setting?

Think of 3500 lumens in 1/2 second or less. That would mess someone up good at close range (however many cp or lux that works out to).

Scott


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## Ice (Mar 9, 2006)

One more time: It's not enough to talk only about how much lumens the light emits in general! That's just half of the story!
(Well, at least as long as you don't really press the light directly on someones eyes! )

@beezaur:
That depends. But you should know, that one needs only some hundredth of a second to close the eyelids, so half a second is a very long time compared to that...

Edit:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't a LED light generally better for blinding someone, since bulbs allways have to heat up the filament first (which takes a little time naturally)?!


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## UVvis (Mar 9, 2006)

The blue tinted color of LED's is harsher.

The effects vary greatly person to person. For example, don't ever try to predict how someone drunk will respond. From playing with lights and the pitiful level of low light hand to hand and shooting I've had, I just accept that I have lost my night vision, so I'm going to squint and try my best to follow the light and keep my self oriented in the best direction I can. On the other hand, I strobed a coworker with my Gladius and he kinda fell over and whined.

It is going to depend on the ambient light conditions. Play around, get a big mirror and a dark room, or a buddy that doesn't think you are completely insane and play around. In bright sunlight, you are going to need a huge powerful light. On an overcast new moon night in the middle of a forest, you don't need much.


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## greenLED (Mar 9, 2006)

Although the amount of light plays a role, keep in mind that certain strobe frequencies can be effective at disorienting people (take the Gladius for example). At least one person I know of claims to get dizzy just by watching a regular PMW-powered LED waved before them 

Ice, filament warm up occurs so fast (fractions of a second), that for all practical purposes it's instantaneous. 

The only "instant" strike HID I've seen (SF mini-Beast) powers up "instantaneously".


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## beezaur (Mar 9, 2006)

Ice said:


> @beezaur:
> That depends. But you should know, that one needs only some hundredth of a second to close the eyelids, so half a second is a very long time compared to that...



Closing eyelids doesn't matter. If you are forcing someone to close their eyes, turn their head, shield their eyes, etc., you have totally overwhelmed their visual abilities. At that stage you have "really messed up an attacker" and have gained a tremendous advantage.

Scott


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## Ice (Mar 9, 2006)

> Closing eyelids doesn't matter. If you are forcing someone to close their eyes, turn their head, shield their eyes, etc., you have totally overwhelmed their visual abilities. At that stage you have "really messed up an attacker" and have gained a tremendous advantage.


 Very true if you want to attack him. If you however should decide to better run away it can come very handy if he doesn't see you for a few more seconds even though the light is not shining at him anymore...


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## tron3 (Mar 9, 2006)

A simple spot light of 1,3, or 5 Million CP should do the trick. 

Now the Striker-VG has that annoying strobe and is roughly 200 lumens. But even on extremely weakened batteries, that strobe was annoying. 

It's not just lumens, it' strobe too.


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## CLHC (Mar 9, 2006)

:huh: Here we go with another thread on BRIGHT lights to disorient dark adapted eyes—

I've read on one of SureFire's catalog, that an "_effective_" Lumen output to temporarily disorient a person's dark/night adapted eyes _starts_ around 65 Lumens then goes up from there. The 120 Lumens you have should be effective enough—_temporarily_—in *TOTAL* darkness. Otherwise, like what Lee1959 said.

Of course Your Modus May Vary accordingly. Enjoy! :wave:


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## TonkinWarrior (Mar 9, 2006)

For the sake of genuine reality, this question should be restated as follows:

-->> "How many GRAINS does it take to really mess up an attacker?"

-->> Answer: 230 grains of .45 ACP hollow-point... preferably placed in the center-mass boiler-room.

Anything else is just a naive appeaser's fairy tale.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

"Criminals must be taught to fear their victims."
-- Col. Jeff Cooper, pistol-craft guru, author: "Principles of Personal Defense"


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## bascodog (Mar 9, 2006)

I am a LEO and I use my Dominator 10X on the high setting to temporary blind are cause an adversery to look away. This has worked on numerous ocassions it's actually kinda funny to watch. When you hit them with 500+ lumens inside 20 feet they kinda make that Jagermeister going down the hatch face "so smooth".  However I was at a call last week with several intoxicated good'ol boys outside there house. Long story short I hit both of the intoxicated males w/ 500+ lumens at point blank range and it didn't phase either of the drunks. :buddies:Well the one Dumb*ss pushed a fellow a officer on scene who was attempting to stop him from attacking his drunk son. That resulted in instant OC to the face and a good old fashion pig pile beat down. I did chip my dominators pyrex lense on this drunks head however ..Oops.


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## colubrid (Mar 9, 2006)

I will agree to a test. I will put my boxing gloves on in complete darkness and someone shine there light into my eyes and see if I still knock you out.:naughty: :rock:


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## Lee1959 (Mar 9, 2006)

Ok, do I get to shoot you with my .45 ACP I draw or beat on you with my Irish Blackthorn walking stick while you are blinking and swinging at the spot I was in when I shined the light but have moved from? :naughty:


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## Navck (Mar 9, 2006)

I've myself stared into my HDS U60XR at night, the only thing it did was to irritate me. (Not blind, but I did get flashing spots fora bit)


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## jwl (Mar 9, 2006)

Shine a 6D Rop-Hi in their eyes and then  . That should buy you some time.


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## carrot (Mar 9, 2006)

No offense to you at all, Ligament -- but is it just me, or are these "blind an attacker" threads getting annoying? They multiply like bunnies.


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## NeonLights (Mar 9, 2006)

beezaur said:


> .........If you are forcing someone to close their eyes, turn their head, shield their eyes, etc., you have totally overwhelmed their visual abilities. At that stage you have "really messed up an attacker" and have gained a tremendous advantage.
> 
> Scott



.......and if the attacker has a gun, he shoots at the light. Advantage attacker. If the attacker is close enough and aggitated enough, he lunges towards the person with the light (doesn't require much visual acuity) and tackles them, advantage attacker. If the attacker has a knife and can run faster the person with the light and a light in his face pisses him off, the person with the light gets stabbed. Advantage attacker.

I'd invite anyone who thinks a light is a good self defense weapon to try and "mess me up with it" at a range of 20-30'. Assuming the flashlight in question isn't a Tigerlight or ASP batonlight, I'll bet good money I can mess up the person with the flashlight a whole lot more than 500+ lumens would mess me up.

-Keith


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## tsask (Mar 9, 2006)

NeonLights said:


> .......and if the attacker has a gun, he shoots at the light. Advantage attacker. If the attacker is close enough and aggitated enough, he lunges towards the person with the light (doesn't require much visual acuity) and tackles them, advantage attacker. If the attacker has a knife and can run faster the person with the light and a light in his face pisses him off, the person with the light gets stabbed. Advantage attacker.
> 
> I'd invite anyone who thinks a light is a good self defense weapon to try and "mess me up with it" at a range of 20-30'. Assuming the flashlight in question isn't a Tigerlight or ASP batonlight, I'll bet good money I can mess up the person with the flashlight a whole lot more than 500+ lumens would mess me up.
> 
> -Keith


Excellent points !!I've the exact same thing.
a lot of very good points here. My pal "Radar", a 40 Kg Ger Shep has good night vision and can also smell and hear the location of an invading assailant murderer etc .His innate familaity of the domicile and his knowledge of likely paths of human movement are outstanding attributes as well! Two more things I like about Radar are that he doesn't drink (he'll never be too impared to react and use judgement) 
and he does not "go off" accidently!
I've often wondered about lighting up or exposing the defender's position when watching an self illuminated Cop on TV etc walking thought a darkend warehouse etc etc. The thought of walking into a room, hallway, or down a staircase, telescoping my arrival and precise location,is then followed by thoughts of war film footage depicting bloody ambushes and unexcpected slaughter. it make sense that a hidden adversary would benefit from a easily visable target. OTOH is seems possible that enough brightness or power could blind or stun an attacker. I dont have any suggestions as to how this much power could be packaged, powered?:thinking: 
It appears that something MUCH more powerful than 500 lumens would be needed. of course all bets are off if the adversary has eye protection in anticipation of such a counterstrike.
I would think there could be much speculation and need? for this type of capability in places where "projectile based kinetic weaponry" is not allowed for the citizenry.:help:


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## hquan (Mar 10, 2006)

I believe that this will do the job very nicely.

https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/92396&page=1

Of course, you'll want the optional tank that goes with it.


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## Flakey (Mar 10, 2006)

i think a mag100 would do very nicely especially in a 4d host. i know from experiecne that the 1300L from my mag35 is impossible to look at from less than 10 feet. also the mag body makes a good impact weapon. just blinding an assailent is useless if you dont use your moment of opportunity to do somthing!


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## beezaur (Mar 10, 2006)

This drives me nuts. Someone asks about the effects of lights, even states


> Of course I would not rely on a flashlight for defense . . .


yet the answers always tend toward weapons.

Some of the logic here. . . I think some opinions would change with the opportunity to try some of these theories in person.

Scott


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## The Porcupine (Mar 10, 2006)

Can't contribute much in the "hard facts" department of this, but on new years eve, my wife flashed my KL1/VG combo at two drunks trying to blow up a mailbox!
One of them looked away and was just suprised, while the other guy turned more or less blind and almost fell face down in the snow, trying to get away!
Both of them ran, so it obviously worked and my wife was amused to say the least! Of course she swore her G2 would have been better!:lolsign:


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## uz2busmc (Mar 10, 2006)

Just flip the light switch and give your intruder the opportunity to see what is being pointed at them. Hopefully the lightbulb provides enough "lumens" for them to see the way out.

.45 cal brightness, depends on powder type, length of barrel, porting... brightness might not register as other things will be racing through your mind at the time you pull the trigger in actual SD situation.


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## Lunal_Tic (Mar 10, 2006)

I was under the impression that the tactical effect of a light, particularly at close range, was the surprise element. If they look away for an instant the advantage is yours to use.

IIRC size15s was taken down by a Surefire rep and a E1e and he's not small. The key would be surprise and immediate follow-up action IMO.

-LT


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## mdocod (Mar 10, 2006)

In my own personal tinkering with lights... I had to try looking into my thor... I set it accross the room on a chair- stepped back about 10 feet, and slowly lowered myself into the beam.

My eyes were open while looking into the light, but not looking into the focsed light (just spillbeam, basically just looking into the filament from the side at 10 feet away)... so at this point my eyes were very adjusted for the bright light... I slowly lowered myself so that the beam would be on my face, and as I came close, I SHUT my eyes (on purpose, don't want to cause perminant damage), then moved in front of the beam. 

Even with my eyes shut, the light and heat going through my eyelids was extremally uncomfortable. The back of my eyelids were bright, when I tried to squint an eye open I had to move out of the beam.

even having said that- I would not rely on even the thor to garantee any advantage in a combat senario. (it would still do more damage as an impact weapon).


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## mdocod (Mar 10, 2006)

oh- and on a sidenote:

it does seem that lumen-per-lumen, LEDs are much more devistating to the eyes than incan... The lensed river rock 2xAA and my LEDBEAM both are similarly blinding as the HP-G90 lamp (which has significantly more lumens)


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## NeonLights (Mar 10, 2006)

The key to using a light for a "tactical" purpose is to have something to back it up. LEO's will typically have a gun handy, if not in hand when illuminating an attacker. If the situation doesn't warrant a lethal weapon, they'll probably have a baton or OC spray in hand. Sometimes a light alone will discourage a person from messing with you, but a person intent on doing you harm will likely not be deterred by a light alone. What if it is more than one person coming at you? Can you temporarily blind more than one person with any light effectively enough to ensure your safety?

-Keith


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## LEDcandle (Mar 10, 2006)

Ice said:


> You all are overlooking the most decisive thing:
> My understanding is that lumen is a measure of the overall light output. It should be clear that for your purpose only the light shining in one's eyes is what counts, so you will need -above all- a light with a good, *tight focus*. I have a SureFire E1L (KL1 head, new generation) which outputs only about 30 lumens but has a very narrow focus. I'm sure that at night it will make someone blind for quite some seconds! I also have an U2, which outputs about 4 times the lumens the E1L does, but since it has a wider focus I guess it would be "only" about as good as the E1L at blinding someone.



Yesh yesh, its lux that counts more for blinding, not lumens. Of course more light is always better for this purpose, but the collimation matters most.

I can look into my 50w 38º magmod with squinted eyes but when I swap it to a 10º version (21,000 lux), no way I can look into tat, esp not at near distance.


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## CM (Mar 10, 2006)

Ice said:


> ...so you will need -above all- a light with a good, *tight focus*...


 
If you're totally in the dark, the tight focus is to YOUR detriment. Are you going to be able to hit that pair of eyes exactly (remember you have very little sidespill) with that tight focus? Try hitting a five inch circle with a thin beam from 7 to 10 yards. Do it within one second or less. Remember, it's totally dark and you don't know with 100% certainty where that 5 inch circle is in front of you. Also, remember you're under a lot of stress. Fine motor skills diminishing rapidly. You probably can't do it reliably. Now grab a 500 lumen M6. Do the same thing. That beam is so huge, you have an incredible margin of error where you point it at. Try that experiment in front of a mirror. It's very ummm, eye opening.


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## Nyctophiliac (Mar 10, 2006)

I remember a few years ago I saw in the local spyshop something that I took to be a torch, I think it was even called 'ultimate flashlight' or similar.

On examination it was a kind of torch, its bulb was appx the size of a household bulb and filled with thin silver wire (Magnesium?) like an old flash bulb.

They claimed that if fired at an attacker at close range, even if they shut their eyes tightly, it would temporarily blind them for several minutes!!!!

That's quite impressive...

Runtime is a bit of an issue though!!!


I think they're illegal around here now (You know how the UK government believes in individuals defending themselves!!!!)




...Renew!...Renew!...Renew!.....


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## xochi (Mar 10, 2006)

UVvis said:


> The blue tinted color of LED's is harsher.
> 
> On the other hand, I strobed a coworker with my Gladius and he kinda fell over and whined.



*Perhaps your coworker is a nine year old girl? :laughing:*


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## LEDcandle (Mar 10, 2006)

CM said:


> If you're totally in the dark, the tight focus is to YOUR detriment. Are you going to be able to hit that pair of eyes exactly (remember you have very little sidespill) with that tight focus? Try hitting a five inch circle with a thin beam from 7 to 10 yards. Do it within one second or less. Remember, it's totally dark and you don't know with 100% certainty where that 5 inch circle is in front of you. Also, remember you're under a lot of stress. Fine motor skills diminishing rapidly. You probably can't do it reliably. Now grab a 500 lumen M6. Do the same thing. That beam is so huge, you have an incredible margin of error where you point it at. Try that experiment in front of a mirror. It's very ummm, eye opening.



Of course if I could get a high lumen AND high lux light, I would take that. If I had to choose between a Lux V flooder at 100 lumens or a KL3 at 30 lumens, I'd still take the KL3 for blinding purposes 

The M6 rocks not only because its 500 lumens, it is using a turbohead, which collimates the 500 lumens to devastating effect. As in, it has high lux too, that's why its effective.


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## Paladin (Mar 10, 2006)

I think using light for offensive purposes is highly over-rated. In many cases, "lighting someone up" with a painfully bright light is going to do more to inspire their animosity than calm them down.

The original concept involved TWO PARTS. A multi-cell Maglite is held near the bezel end, with the body pointing rearward over the LEO's right shoulder. The oft used authoritative phrase "Let me see your eyes" was accompanied (FIRST) by a blast of light, WHILE THE WRIST WAS SNAPPED and (SECOND)the flashlight body strikes their forehead. An experience best learned by watching.

Mid's 70's Northern Virginia local LEO's taught this method to several friends of mine as "character building lessons". What I learned was to never stand within an arms length of someone with a flashlight in their hand. And to say "Yes sir" politely.






Paladin


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## Unicorn (Mar 11, 2006)

A bright light can disorient an attacker long enough to allow you to use a follow up technique more effectively. OC, strike, gunshot, run like hell, whatever. They wince, close their eyes, or shield them. If they are doing that, they can't hit you, shoot you, or stab you as easily. It also lets you surprise them with the OC, or the kick to the groin. By itself, it will just **** off the person after their eyes adjust.

But, and this is part of my eternal "lumens don't mean jack," tirade, LUMENS DON"T MEAN JACK! By itself they tell you nothing, just like by itself, candlepower doesn't tell you anything. 500 lumens from an SF M6 might be enough to cause pain and disorient an attacker. But that's because it's focused. Next time you are in a store that sells light bulbs, look at the lumens produce by the various wattages. Especially the higher powered ones. Anybody ever get totally and painfully blinded by a desk lamp? Maybe if you've been asleep and it's pitch black in the room.


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## asdalton (Mar 11, 2006)

This light would mess up an attacker. :devil: :laughing:


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## beezaur (Mar 11, 2006)

asdalton said:


> This light would mess up an attacker. :devil: :laughing:



It would mess up the inside of your house too.

Remember the first attack scene in War of the Worlds?

Scott


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## TonkinWarrior (Mar 11, 2006)

asdalton said:


> This light would mess up an attacker. :devil: :laughing:



Nice find, Andrew!

Do they take PayPal?


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## Meduza (Mar 11, 2006)

A CP77 lamp messed me up and nearly made me loose my balance, not so nice, especially as i was looking in it from 0,5m distance and standing on a ladder 7m up over a stone floor 

CP77 is a theatre spotlight lamp at 1kw, rated at 25000 lumens i think


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## Glass (Mar 12, 2006)

I have had people go sideways when I accidently flashed them with my SL-20.

Personally, I don't buy the huge "disorientation" effect that a flashlight supposedly has. If anything, I think it could have the opposite effect because BG knows that if he charges at that bright light, you'll be behind it and he'll get to you.

Yes, when a normal person gets hit with 200+ lumens of light, they close their eyes and turn away. However, add drugs, alcohol, or anger to the mix and a person becomes far less sensitive to things like that. 

Example: a month or two ago I had a guy who was drunk and POed absorb 7 (yes SEVEN) contact shots from the TASER without effect. He forced us to go old school on him before he stopped fighting. If someone wants to, they can fight through incredible levels of pain.

I do believe bright light can be used to mask an inbound strike, but I would not even hope that it alone would give me a chance to escape.

One more thing, Gabe Suarez has recently found, through numerous FOF tests, that the strobing lights have little or no advantage in an armed conflict. In fact, he and his associates have found that it can be a disadvantage for the operator. 
http://www.warriortalk.com/showthread.php?t=11858

Just food for thought.

Patrick


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## rgp4544 (Mar 12, 2006)

Patrick,

Granted the light might not affect some people and it would be necessary to go medieval on them, but some of us peace loving types with good eyes are stunned by candlelight...shine your light in an airline pilot's eyeball and he is out for a good while.

Last night while planting some asparagus roots in my garden after dark (don't ask) I dropped my Surefire and it landed in the dirt with the lens pointed up. I was seeing spots for about an hour.

My vision is 20/10, perfect for color, no eye defects at all.

Still I wouldn't trust a light for defense unless in a country where the light is all you're allowed to have. Witness all the blind bats with bad eyes who drive at night when they can't see where they're going...I don't think their behavior is affected by a light.

Richard


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## carrot (Mar 12, 2006)

asdalton said:


> This light would mess up an attacker. :devil: :laughing:


Group buy, anyone?


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## Glass (Mar 12, 2006)

Richard, 
I agree with you that a normal person's eyes are effected by a bright light, but normal/peace loving people don't go attacking strangers. 

I would never think of harming someone just because I wanted what they had. However, take a meth user and he'll rob/assault his own mother (literally) to get his next fix.

Basically, though I have used blinding light to gain a tactical advantage over a suspect, I really hate all the marketing b/s that is trying to convince good people that a bright flashlight can keep them safe. 

Yeah, there are those muggers that will be scared off by a blinding blast of bodacious light, but, there are plenty of predators that'll just get POed when you shine a light in their eyes. So, you'd better have a plan B through Z which includes killing the SOB if he pushes it to that. I don't just mean using guns, I mean killing him with your bare hands, if you must, because that is his plan for you.

I like flashlights a lot (probably waaay too much) but I don't believe for a second that they can protect me like good tactics/mindset and purpose designed weapons can.

Patrick


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## kennyj (Mar 12, 2006)

You have to remember, the real Bad Guys believe that they have an inalienable RIGHT to victimize you, and that you have no right to do anything to resist. Actually resisting is a mortal sin on your part, punishable by death at their discretion, and not necessarily a fast one. You need to be prepared for that possibility.

For blinding effect, you need either a very bright smooth, well-collimated, yet not-too-focused incandescent or a very bright LED weighted towards the blue end of the spectrum. Royal Blue luxeons are GREAT at blinding because of the human eye's difficulties with blue light (short version: your eyes really suck at dealing with blue. Chronic exposure to blue light has even been implicated in a number of vision problems, in fact.) Single-color LEDs also put out more light than their white counterparts thanks to the lack of phosphors.


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## city cop (Mar 13, 2006)

It's the element of surprize ! I have trained with low light tactics and can tell you at close quarter combat it's not just how bright the light is but how you use the light! You have to train with the light like anything else. "Shall how we train shall how we fight".


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## lasercrazy (Mar 13, 2006)

A mag85 would mess someone up pretty good.


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## Flakey (Mar 14, 2006)

again i have to vote for a mag100 in a 4d host. you give them 3000 lumens in the face and then swing immediately for the head with your flashlight/nightstick. even if the 3000 lumens do NOTHING (which i highly doubt) a firm smack on the head with a mag100 would probably be deadly ...... kinda scary


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## Manzerick (Mar 14, 2006)

i know i always thinkof the "blindability" of a light. Even if never needed i was blinding myself witht he E1L today at work off of a mirror... just htinking of the shock someone would feel if blinded... 


Now the Dominator would be a crazy....crazy light to "night blind" someone with... I can't even imagine


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## KevinL (Mar 14, 2006)

I was actually thinking of someone else's 1KW tank spotlight. HIDs are a UV hazard without proper filtration installed, and stepping in front of a 1KW HID at close range would immediately cause horrific radiation burns. 

Kinda like stepping in front of a few hundred watts of high performance wireless transmission systems WILL assuredly microwave you. (I do wireless at work, thankfully, NOT in this power class.. PHEW!!)


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## Glass (Mar 14, 2006)

Again, I believe that a bright light can give a tactical advantage if used in conjuction with other tactics/weapons. But, a light alone, I don't care if it is a USL, is not a weapon or a "Force Option" as many marketing campaigns would have you believe.

The Beast, Thor, USL, etc. are still only devices that allow you to see in the absence of natural light. Can they cause someone to close their eyes if shined in the face? Yes, until they re-orient themselves and change their tactics exactly like every mammal is programmed to do.

"It hurt my eyes" is not a good enough argument for me to rely on a light as my main "force option." It is only a tool that allows me to better orient myself to the situation and apply whatever option I think will save my skinny a**.

Use the flashlight to ID your target and get midevil. Using a light in that capacity, will have far better results if you are trying to save your butt.

Patrick


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## Blindspot (Mar 14, 2006)

To settle this thread once and for all, I fired up my 35,000,000CP HF HID and pinned my eyes open Clockwork Orange style, then placed myself in front of the beam for an hour. Simultaniously, I had a friend hit me in the head with a 6D mag swung like a baseball bat. I can confirm that I can't see anything, and I have a headache. :wow:


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## lightplay22 (Mar 14, 2006)

Blindspot, LOL Now if someone else attacks you, you won't see him coming. Too funny!
How many swings before you became REALLY messed up?


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## carrot (Mar 14, 2006)

How many lumens does a flamethrower put out? :devil: 
Now that's a torch that'll really mess up an attacker.


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## BlackFox (Mar 17, 2006)

the *Streamlight BatonLite is build for self-defense flashlight

*ONLY 42 LUMENS !!

http://www.donrearic.com/batonlite.html







your opinion ?


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## Glass (Mar 17, 2006)

I like it.

This is a purpose built weapon. However, you can use any sturdy cylindrical object and that includes a huge selection of flashlights. But, this one is a multitasker and I dig that.

Use the light to change his focus from you to the light (not "blind" him) and and almost simulataneously deliver several blows to the fragile facial bones. That is a tactically sound use of a flashlight that will work in the real world in a real fight for survival.

Patrick

[edited to add]

Also, Don Rearic is a wealth of knowledge on real world self defense. His site has a bunch of good info on it.


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## kennyj (Mar 18, 2006)

The Batonlite isn't 42 lumens. There is no direct translation between lumens and CD, MCD, or lux. It's actually somewhere in the vicinity of 7.4 lumens, extrapolating from the Overall Output test results on flashlightreviews.com. Roughly the same as an ARC AAA-P, in fact. It's a good "keychain" light, if large, with exceptionally good runtime. Could be considered an alternative to the minimag as well for many individuals, and has similar carry options. LEOs often value it as a ticket-writer light. For tactical purposes, looking at it purely from a lighting perspective, it's only useful for close-range threat assessment. Any other defensive value it has is as a kubotan.

The use of a light like the Streamlight Batonlite or the Streamlight Stylus as a kubotan can be effective, but it requires training. In any case, as with any other light, use of a flashlight as an impact weapon is something to be considered very carefully and trained for (among the considerations: do I really want to risk screwing up this expensive light when a much cheaper and less delicate instrument could do the job better? Also, if it gets damaged in a fight, at what point does it cease being useful?) I'd consider the Batonlite a rare exception to the rule in that it's designed with self-defense in mind and is damn near indestructible (moreso than most other tactical lights) but generally, flashlights are usable as impact weapons only as a last resort.

Another consideration is that you can use a flashlight *in conjunction with* an impact weapon or kubotan that will do a better job. Well-timed direct flashes to the face with something very bright in very dark conditions could help throw an attacker's aim or timing off, for example. You can easily dazzle yourself at the same time, but at least your finger is the one on the button (so you'll know when to blink.) You also get the option to dual-wield if you're going the impact device route (not an option most people would want to consider in most cases, but there are uses for such a tactic.)

If you really want to use any sort of pain-compliance device or impact weapon for self-defense, though, you're probably better off getting something lent better to the task. There are some really good kubota out there that will work FAR better than the Batonlight, and almost any real club or baton will fulfill the role better than a maglite for a number of reasons. There are even times when other common non-weapon objects can be used as weapons more effectively; for example, pens can make extremely effective kubotans and many can also be used as stabbing weapons if you're in a severe SHTF scenario. Anything with some mass (like a coin purse) can be adapted for use as a sap, or have cord attached in some way to be used as a mace. Strong cord can even be used as a garrote, and can be carried in simple and sensible ways (see the Chain Knot, or simply get a sturdy retractable lanyard and put keys on it.) DR's site has some interesting ideas, and there's a wealth of information on the subject out there.


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## frisco (Mar 18, 2006)

How many Lumens?
Kind of a trick questions because of variables. 

- Distance away from subject
- Dilation or lack of subjects eyes. 

frisco


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