# 20,000+ lumen LED, smallest size possible.



## Mitch311 (Oct 29, 2011)

Hi Guys & Girls,

I am building a DIY projector and am planning to use an LED light source. Some Key specifications:

85+ CRI, 6000-6500K, High Lumen Output (preferably 100lm/w or better), smallest sized emitting area possible.

I plan to use a PC cpu watercooling solution to cool the LED as much as possible. 

I have been looking for a while at 200w or so LED solutions, I have figured that my planned cooling setup can handle 300w of heat, so anything under than is acceptable.

I have been talking directly to a manufacturer in China who has been more than helpful, with arranging a solution of 16x12 chips on a COB frame. The emitting area is 32.5mmx24.4mm. Approx 19,200 lumen, 192watts.They are willing to charge me $105USD for one.

I have also been looking at a 200w LED from SatisLED, this one: http://www.satisled.com/200w-high-p...-white-warm-white-yellow-for-choice_p164.html avg 17,000 lumen and only 21mmx21mm emitting area. $140 USD/ea.

Can anyone recommend a manufacturer that does high power LED's like this for a good price? Does Satis LED have a history as an acceptable manufacturer? 

I'm also looking for a adjustable constant current circuit like this: http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/LED-Powe...640?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item336d484400 that can handle 48V and 10A output.

Any help is appreciated, I am just getting started in electronics, so I might be a bit slow on concepts lol.

Thanks a heap!
Mitch


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## Bullzeyebill (Oct 29, 2011)

Welcome to CPF. Let's take the emphasis off of "I want a good price" and place it on makers of the product that you want, then you can contact whoever and find out prices for your self. *So no more mention of prices. Not appropriate for this forum.*


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## deadrx7conv (Oct 29, 2011)

You will be hit/miss with the CRI and Kelvin of a generic sourced LEDs. Wanting a 200w 85CRI at 6000k with 100lm/w is NOT going to happen. And if you believe it, I'll sell you the bridge that I own in the everglades. 

Satisled LED is acceptable for what they offer:::: wallyworld quality LEDs... Perfect for my outdoor low-cri unknown kelvin unknown efficacy...will fade in a short time LED floodlights lighting my yard/driveway.... I will buy more from Satisled since they seem to be a step up on some of the ebay equivalents. Their website is great for the DIY'er, but nothing special.

If you can't find it from SSC, Cree, Philips, Bridgelux, Edison-Opto, Citizen, LedEngin, Sharp, or other name brand LED company, quality becomes a kr*pshoot. The LED fade testing threads here are worth reading. All you're getting with the generics is more of the same low quality LED. 

I think that you'd be better off trying a Luxim Plasma LEP bulb. Check their specs to see if they have the output, CRI, K temp,... that you're looking for. Only problem is that they run at 270-280watts. 

Here are some links. Notice the output, CRI, kelvin, efficiency of the LEDs: 
http://www.edison-opto.com.tw/01_led_products_detail.asp?sn=120
http://ce.citizen.co.jp/lighting_led/en/products/COB_series.html
http://bridgelux.com/products/ledarray_rs.html
http://www.sharpleds.com/megazenigata.html
http://www.cree.com/products/xlamp_cxa2011.asp
http://www.luminus.com/products/CSM-360.html
http://www.luminus.com/products/CBM-360.html
http://www.luxim.com/dynamic/display.php/31
http://www.ledengin.com/products/emitters
http://www.acriche.com/en/product/prd/acrich2.asp


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## SemiMan (Oct 29, 2011)

deadrx7conv said:


> You will be hit/miss with the CRI and Kelvin of a generic sourced LEDs. Wanting a 200w 85CRI at 6000k with 100lm/w is NOT going to happen. And if you believe it, I'll sell you the bridge that I own in the everglades.
> 
> Satisled LED is acceptable for what they offer:::: wallyworld quality LEDs... Perfect for my outdoor low-cri unknown kelvin unknown efficacy...will fade in a short time LED floodlights lighting my yard/driveway.... I will buy more from Satisled since they seem to be a step up on some of the ebay equivalents. Their website is great for the DIY'er, but nothing special.
> 
> ...


 



A second and a third on Luxim. Ideally a projector needs a point light source .... or a brilliant optical design. I am going to guess your optical options are limited, so the Luxim product with a higher source brightness is likely easier to use.

That said, white is not the way to go for DIY projector and CRI for a projector is completely meaningless. CRI ONLY matters when you are illuminating something. A projector is a direct viewed light source. CRI has no relevance. Ideally you want an RGB source somewhat tuned to the RGB of your panel, color wheel, etc. Unless you are doing black and white in which case CRI may matter, but likely a cool color temp is favorable in order to get a good eye response.

Semiman


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## MikeAusC (Oct 30, 2011)

Mitch311 said:


> . . . . smallest sized emitting area possible. . . . . . . . .



What sort of image are you projecting ?


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## Mitch311 (Oct 30, 2011)

I am projecting through a 15.4" LCD. The closest to a point source possible is preferred for the optics, but I believe anything under 30mm square can be utilized. The LEP would be perfect but,

It seems that LEP, is far outside my price range. I only found some 2nd hand setup and it's not cheap....

Does anyone know of reputable companies that actually produce very high output LED's? All the ones Linked above are essentially under 10,000 lumens. Ignoring CRI, I need good color, output and preferably 6000+ hr lifespan.

Thanks for your time guys.

Mitch


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## JacobJones (Oct 30, 2011)

Why LED? Mercury vapour would be much better, tiny emitting area so you'd get a nice sharp image.


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## Mitch311 (Oct 31, 2011)

I have been looking at using a 400w MH, which is what is fairly standard in the DIY projector game. The problem is the sheer amount of wasted light even with reflector and pre condenser lens. 

Led is much more directed, instant on/off, cooler, longer useful life and from accounts produces a better picture full stop. 

Still waiting for my replies to be authorized.


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## blasterman (Oct 31, 2011)

Phlatlight LED's as per the best of my knowledge still are the kings in terms of light density at the several thousand lumen level. They seem to be the LED of choice for mid to high end effect and theatrical lighting for this reason. Not the most efficient at their higher currents (50-60 lumens per watt), but this is a secondary problem when you are design limited to emitter size.

Pretty much all the other LED's are actually small arrays.


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## CKOD (Oct 31, 2011)

How much light would you be wasiting trying to homogenize a very non-point source LED consisting of many dies, or even just a huge die vs a reflector and collimating/focusing a MH bulb? The largest single die LED that Ive seen is the SST-90, and thats an order of magnitude under what youre looking for in terms of output. 

Youre probably going to be looking at 70-80lm/W if you get a custom LED made (i.e. lots of dies attached and wirebonded to a substrate) So youre still looking at 250W of power, and 200W+ of heat to dissipate from the LED, which you'd have to keep the die under 150C, which would be just as demanding as cooling a 400W MH bulb


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## Mitch311 (Oct 31, 2011)

Sorry, yes I am looking at an array of led chips on a single cob frame. 

The optics that I plan to use are simply a collimating fresnel paired with a spotlight lens on the led and a pre condenser lens. 

The problem with a high powered Metal Halide build is that roughly 50% of its light is immediately lost even with precon and reflector. Where as with the LED array nearly all output can be captured, the system over all runs cooler and is instant on and off. 

As I mentioned I intend to us a PC waterproofing kit to cool the LED array. 

I am beginning to think LED is just too much hassle to get at high power which is very disappointing.


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## SemiMan (Oct 31, 2011)

I think you will run into similar issues with the LED array in that you will lose much in the way of light just to attempt to get a collimated homogenous beam.

Semiman


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## Harold_B (Nov 1, 2011)

Not a simple, cheap or easy system but..., what about putting three CSM360 Luminus Devices LEDs in a configuration like that of a DLP projector? Basically each LED is collimated with a couple of aspheric lenses, the outputs combined using dicroic filters/mirrors and homogenized using a pair of fly's eye lenses before the focus lens system. There are a few papers from TI on DLP that show how their chip is used and the optical system I am referring to.


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## Mitch311 (Nov 1, 2011)

My information source on the optics involved, believes that if I use a spot light lens over the LED, I can essentially have the thing as big as I want, I would run a Spotlight lens into a precondensor into the collimator. He basically said, that I have to remember that people are already currently using MH bulbs in these thing which often have rather large arcs etc and they get ok focus.

But anyway this is all a pointless talk at this point as no one seems to think I can get a high output LED like this, especially the companies that produce high quality LED's. Even with a larger emitting size, it just doesnt seem that many of the China companies produce quality LED and I can't afford to trial items to find a good one.

Hmmm, thanks everyone.


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## evilc66 (Nov 2, 2011)

Why not set your lumen target lower? Sure, matching a 400W MH in lumen output is an admirable goal, but it's not a practical one. Take a look at the Bridgelux C8000. At it's max DC current of 3750mA, it can produce up to about 11,000lm (if you can keep the LED cool enough) at 5600K color temperature. It's a far higher quality LED than you would get from a Chinese manufacturer, and not horribly expensive for what you get ($75.65 at Newark currently).


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## Kinnza (Nov 2, 2011)

I think the same as evilc66. You took a projector system with MH as reference and, as you well know, it losses a lot of light due reflector.

On the other hand, light output in a projector is greatly minimized by the use of filters. Going LEDs would worth if you use colored LEDs for the task, so your output on the RGB channels are directly from the light source with small losses. That way, a reflector using way less power than you planned could be realized. So I believe currently the right way to build a projector system with LED lighting is by using an imaging system which already uses RGB light, as it allows you to use way less gross light output.

Although Osram discontinued its Ostar Projection model, visit the page, application notes at the bottom should be very useful for you: http://catalog.osram-os.com/catalogue/catalogue.do?favOid=000000020002369d00510023&act=showBookmark


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## MikeAusC (Nov 2, 2011)

Mitch311 said:


> I am projecting through a 15.4" LCD. . . . . .



It would have saved a lot of tangential suggestions, if you'd stated this in your initial post. Most Projection systems use radically different optical arrangements.

Illuminating a 15" diag rectangle is hardly an optical challenge - just a single aspheric will do it.

You can test the concept cheaply by buying a 100watt LED array from DX or SatisLED for $60 and a 12volt Driver for $10. They do sell up to 300 watts.


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## MikeAusC (Nov 2, 2011)

Kinnza said:


> . . . . . Going LEDs would worth if you use colored LEDs for the task, so your output on the RGB channels are directly from the light source with small losses. . . . . .



For maximum efficiency, if you do use three R,G, B LEDs instead of one White, you will need to make sure they are spectrally centred on the colour of the R, G, B filters in the LCD. 

This would also allow you to finetune the White Balance.

You will also need to use three lenses - although they're not expensive.


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## Mitch311 (Nov 2, 2011)

Hey MikeAus, kinza, evil.

The concept has been proven here: http://z6.invisionfree.com/diyprojectorphils/index.php?showtopic=712&view=findpost&p=14990337 using a 10,000 lumen LED, no precondensor lens, no spot light lens etc.

I am trying to build on this concept, to increase lumen output to roughly this level: http://z6.invisionfree.com/diyprojectorphils/index.php?showtopic=759 which is my benchmark of 400w MH performance. 

I don't quite understand how using RGB led would be more effective then using the kind of light source LCD screens are designed for, but regardless, what optical magic would I have to do to combine 3 seperate LED into a single light source for the purpose of entering a Collimating fresnel lens? Aim 3 spotlight lens covered leds into a pre condensor lens and hope for the best? Because they still need to act at least close to a point source light to get effect distribution of light across the screen. And if I can pull of a stunt like that (cheapishly) why not use 3 of those bridgelux and pump 33,000 lumens into the system?

The whole idea though was to try and keep this all Affordable and simple and 3 led array 3 drivers and 3 sets of optics doesnt sound like either?

Thank-you again for everyones help, this really has me stumped and basically it seems I have to wait for technology to meet expectations, but I am still keen to look at any possible solution, even just to note for those DIY'ers that have more $$ than me lol.


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## SemiMan (Nov 2, 2011)

Mitch311 said:


> Hey MikeAus, kinza, evil.
> 
> The concept has been proven here: http://z6.invisionfree.com/diyprojectorphils/index.php?showtopic=712&view=findpost&p=14990337 using a 10,000 lumen LED, no precondensor lens, no spot light lens etc.
> 
> ...




The point of using RGB LED sources in a projector is via sequential color .... basically projecting one color after the another and using a monochrome modulator (or your LCD in this case). A monochrome panel could have 30-40% light transmission (and better extinguishing ratio) versus 10% or less for a color panel. Hence you get a much more efficient system.

No offense, but the DIY projector concept for me at least ran out of steam completely about 4 years ago when 720P projectors dropped below $1,000. You just can't even come close to matching the performance of an off the shelf system any more.

Semiman


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## MikeAusC (Nov 2, 2011)

Mitch311 said:


> . . . . .I don't quite understand how using RGB led would be more effective then using the kind of light source LCD screens are designed for, . . . .



An LCD Panel doesn't transmit the full spectrum, it only transmits Red Green and Blue through the LCD filters. LCD Displays and TVs use a white LED or CCFL because the backlight needs to be very thin.

A White LED generates Blue Light, then fills in the spectrum using Phosphor Conversion - and a lot of this light gets wasted in the LCD filters. It would be more efficient to only generate the light that will pass through the Filters - but everything else gets more complicated.





Mitch311 said:


> . . . . .what optical magic would I have to do to combine 3 seperate LED into a single light source for the purpose of entering a Collimating fresnel lens? Aim 3 spotlight lens covered leds into a pre condensor lens and hope for the best? Because they still need to act at least close to a point source light to get effect distribution of light across the screen. And if I can pull of a stunt like that (cheapishly) why not use 3 of those bridgelux and pump 33,000 lumens into the system?
> The whole idea though was to try and keep this all Affordable and simple and 3 led array 3 drivers and 3 sets of optics doesnt sound like either? . . . . . .



Here, and in your other posts, I'm not sure which optics you're talking about - focussing the LED light onto the LCD - or focussing the LCD image onto a viewing screen ?

Let's only talk about focussing a single White LED light onto the rear of the 15 inch LCD panel. All you need is an Aspheric lens like a normal torch - just moved closer to the LED since you don't want a parallel beam. You may want a Fresnel lens on the LED side of the LCD to direct the light through the LCD.


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## Mitch311 (Nov 3, 2011)

Sorry for being obtuse, yes I have been refering to the optics stage between the light source and the LCD panel. I would be using a collimating fresnel lens to pass the light through the LCD panel, and whatever optics necessary to align the light into the collimator, eg a pre condensor lens which is often PCX or DCX. 

So an LCD panel will only let a very small range of colored light through, and a white LED is essentially faking those colors, therefore not producing the brightest light that could go through and wasting a lot which is just hitting the LCD and converting to heat. If you were to make an array using those the right RGB chips in combination, would that theoretically produce more usable transmissive light than an array of white chips? In other words do they have to be sequential or can you illuminate them all at once.

Semiman,
I understand that DIY projectors have fallen in usefulness in the last few years, even though I only started looking at them a month ago I have noticed that the community is much smaller than it used to be by all accounts. And yes I could get a nice 720p projector for $600ish such as the Optoma HD66, but I enjoy building things, I'm that kind of diy geek. And $350-$400 will get me functional, watchable 1080p projector that if I wanted too could leave on for days and days and not worry about. Bulb life as its cheap!. If portability or space was an issue maybe I'd lean towards a commercial offering, but they aren't and learning new stuff and building things is fun  So definetitly no offence taken, I understand your sentiment, and I did consider buying a commercial one, but I like making stuff too much.


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## CKOD (Nov 4, 2011)

Mitch311 said:


> So an LCD panel will only let a very small range of colored light through, and a white LED is essentially faking those colors, therefore not producing the brightest light that could go through and wasting a lot which is just hitting the LCD and converting to heat. If you were to make an array using those the right RGB chips in combination, would that theoretically produce more usable transmissive light than an array of white chips? In other words do they have to be sequential or can you illuminate them all at once.



Perhaps look at luminus devices color LEDs so you can have less losses in the panel and not need 20k lumens. The CBT120, PT-120, and PT-121 LEDs are all big individual color LED. focus/collimate them as needed then use some dichroic mirrors (find a 3 chip DLP engine and steal parts from that?) to combine them into a white beam.


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## MikeAusC (Nov 4, 2011)

CKOD said:


> . . . . focus/collimate them as needed then use some dichroic mirrors (find a 3 chip DLP engine and steal parts from that?) to combine them into a white beam.



There is no need for fancy optics. All that's needed is to concentrate the light from the three LEDs onto the back of a 15 inch diagonal LCD. One aspheric in front of each LED is all that's needed.

I believe all LCD panels have the R,G and B cells on simultaneously, so there's no need for any sequencing either. If you did need it. I don't know if you'd be able to access a signal to do it.


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## MikeAusC (Nov 10, 2011)

I just realised that an Overhead Transparency Projector has the EXACT optics you need - get as much light as possible onto a 250mm square and then project the image of the transparency/LCD.

There is a 58mm dia 22mm thick aspheric lens which collects the light from the filament and focuses it onto a flat mirror, that redirects it onto the Fresnel Lens below the transparency glass holder.

There is also a concave spherical front-silvered mirror behind the bulb, but that would be no use for an LED since it directs all light out the front anyway.

In fact, if I was you, I would test out the concept by putting the LCD on the Projector glass. The one I'm scavenging for lenses and mirrors uses a 250 watt globe - FIVE TIMES the power of car headlight !


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## CKOD (Nov 10, 2011)

MikeAusC said:


> In fact, if I was you, I would test out the concept by putting the LCD on the Projector glass. The one I'm scavenging for lenses and mirrors uses a 250 watt globe - FIVE TIMES the power of car headlight !



http://education.ti.com/educationportal/sites/US/productDetail/us_viewscreen_calculator.html
Yep, it works


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## MikeAusC (Nov 15, 2011)

MikeAusC said:


> An LCD Panel doesn't transmit the full spectrum, it only transmits Red Green and Blue through the LCD filters. LCD Displays and TVs use a white LED or CCFL because the backlight needs to be very thin.
> 
> A White LED generates Blue Light, then fills in the spectrum using Phosphor Conversion - and a lot of this light gets wasted in the LCD filters. It would be more efficient to only generate the light that will pass through the Filters - but everything else gets more complicated. . . . . . .



I knew I would find the answer eventually . . . . and thanks to some of the brilliant work that gets published on CPF of course !!!!.

In Post #1388 on this page, you'll see a Spectral Plot of the output of an LCD Panel - the last one for a white screen shows the R, G and B peaks from the 3 filters.
http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?220118-Spectrographic-analyses-pg.-4/page47. 
For maximum efficiency, you would select power LEDs with maximum energy at these peaks of transmission.


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