# Any gunsmiths in our community?



## 1wrx7 (Nov 20, 2009)

I've been working on my own firearms for years, now I've decided to take it further. I've also been working at the same job for over 13 years... and I'm getting tired of making other people rich, while I have no room for improvement. It's not a bad job, and I've learned a lot while working there. It's just that I don't really have a future there:scowl: I can't just quit... especially in this economy... but I need to do something to try to make my life better, and prepare for retirement in the future.

So... I just signed up for a professional gunsmithing course. The course also covers welding and machining. I'm hoping as long as I put in the work I'll have the chance to learn some new skills and hopefully in the future be able to work for myself instead of working for others. The old addage "If you're doing something you love, it's not really work" definately applies here for me. I love working with my hands, and firearms should be a lot more fun than adhesive dispensing equipment

Just to add a flashlight reference... to go along with the machining course, I'll be recieving a small metal turning lathe So along with machining gun parts I should be able to start turning heatsinks, bodies and a lot of other flashlight related parts of my own

The question in the title still stands... any other gunsmiths here? Any thoughts, words of wisdom, ect....


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## TooManyGizmos (Nov 20, 2009)

Just don't take that gunsmithing course offered on TV.

or the one for Lasik surgery either.

Maybe someone with knowledge will reply now .
.
(and you better join the NRA so they don't take all your subjects away )
(the U.K. might be taking applications for gunsmiths. Did you say you wanted a job with a future ?)


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## BIGIRON (Nov 21, 2009)

Cool. Like TooMany said, join the NRA and your state affiliate.


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## 1wrx7 (Nov 21, 2009)

TooManyGizmos said:


> Just don't take that gunsmithing course offered on TV.....snip...
> 
> (the U.K. might be taking applications for gunsmiths. Did you say you wanted a job with a future ?)


 
I have a rule... never buy anything from TV I don't think I've ever seen a gunsmithing course in a infomercial. While doing research on this I found other courses that were cheaper, and there seems to be a reason for it. I really want to learn this, I don't just want to half *** it and have a piece of paper that says I can do it. I want to really do it.

I was under the impression the UK's gun laws were much more restrictive than in the US

I have a love hate relationship with the NRA. I love that they are trying to do something I agree with. I hate that even though I give them money they call me every week wanting more. Unfortunately there's only so much to go around.

I should add some ground rules here. No one has offended yet, but with a thread involving firearms, it can get turned into something that could get shut down quickly. Let's all please refrain from heavy political comments, and any other tangents that could get this topic derailed. Other than that I appreciate any input. We have a diverse community that I have grown to respect in my time here. I know we have a lot of gun guys here that might have some good tips.


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## TooManyGizmos (Nov 21, 2009)

Hi there 1wrx7 , 

I am very sorry that I derailed your thread . I will remove my post , if you like .
......................................................................................................................

Thanks for the PM , we are good-to-go , I wish you well in your endeavor !

.


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## gswitter (Nov 21, 2009)

TooManyGizmos said:


> Just an FYI type heads up , etiquette rule when quoting other members ....
> 
> After you quote someone - you should stay out of the box - or you're violating quoting rules . :thumbsup:


Relax. He probably just forgot a quote delimiter and didn't notice the results.


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## TooManyGizmos (Nov 21, 2009)

It's OK ....... it didn't un-relax me .

I am relaxed . It was just a simple heads-up.


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## BIGIRON (Nov 21, 2009)

Ok. On topic. Advice.

You've already committed to the course. You'll probably wind up with a FFL and a shop.

Years ago, I was partner in a small shop. We didn't do well because we only bought guns that we thought were neat and that we wanted to play with, not the guns that would sell quickly and be profitable. Fun while it lasted.


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## 1wrx7 (Nov 22, 2009)

TooManyGizmos said:


> Hi there 1wrx7 ,
> 
> I am very sorry that I derailed your thread . I will remove my post , if you like .
> ......................................................................................................................
> ...


 

You didn't derail it at alllovecpf I made sure to say that no one has offended yet. I'm just scared that a topic I'm looking for information on will disseminate into a gun rights issue or something else to get it closed. I'm sorry if I came off wrong

I'll have to play with the quoting a little more to get it all down. I had to get out the door earlier today, but I wanted to reply to the thread. When I did the preview post I knew it wasn't quite right:sigh: Thanks for letting me know about the quoting rules though... it was one I wasn't aware of. I'll go play with the post and see what I can learn:thumbsup:

I'm glad members are responding to the thread. I'm open to all opinions... I just want the thread to stay open so I can get everybodys opinion. I really doubt anyone here could offend me, and no one has. Again I'm sorry if I came off wrong


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## 1wrx7 (Nov 22, 2009)

BIGIRON said:


> Ok. On topic. Advice.
> 
> You've already committed to the course. You'll probably wind up with a FFL and a shop.
> 
> Years ago, I was partner in a small shop. We didn't do well because we only bought guns that we thought were neat and that we wanted to play with, not the guns that would sell quickly and be profitable. Fun while it lasted.


 

For the record, your first post in this thread was on topic. Supporting the orginizations that feel the same way you do is very important and relevant.

You bring up something I've been thinking about. Just because I like something doesn't mean anybody else will. I know part of the course I signed up for covers this topic. That's a major reason why I want to learn more. I'm very familliar with the firearms I already own, but there are so many that might not interest me. Those are the ones I need to focus more of my attention on. If I can't do what potential customers want I'm done before I started.

You're right about the FFL, but the shop could take a long time, if that even happens. I don't want to get too far ahead of myself. I have a lot to learn first. This will be a part time thing for awhile. The worst case senario I see is I only make back the money invested into the knowladge. Even if I can't turn it into a career, I'll still have the knowladge for me and my friends.

I'm sorry the shop didn't work out for you... but at least you said it was fun while it lasted. I'm all for some fun, even if it's short lived.


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## TooManyGizmos (Nov 22, 2009)

You didn't come off wrong at all , I DID . And I did apologize . I was feeling a bit too squirrely during my first post . I made some silly comments , as the first reply to your thread , but my first sentence was genuine to your topic . I really have seen some gunsmithing courses offered on TV. I'm sure they are useless for your needs. My UK comment was a hint that gun bans could someday also be attempted here in the USA . If so , and if they succeeded , you wouldn't have anything to smith on . The UK citizens are now defenseless , and at the mercy of the criminals . I hope they someday recover their most basic human rights to self defense . And I hope that crap is never tried here . I think it would turn out to be a blood bath. ( my cold dead fingers )

Thanks for the PM , I'm glad we got it all cleared up , and I edited my previous post. (as you did also)

We do NEED more good gunsmiths . I hope you are successful in your journey !






1wrx7 said:


> You didn't derail it at alllovecpf I made sure to say that no one has offended yet. (snip ,snip) .... I'm sorry if I came off wrong
> 
> (snip)
> 
> I really doubt anyone here could offend me, and no one has. Again I'm sorry if I came off wrong


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## Diesel_Bomber (Nov 22, 2009)

Hey, I think the NRA membership is worth it just for the magazine subscription. Love my American Rifleman............

Have fun with the course, 1wrx7! :buddies:


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## gorn (Nov 22, 2009)

I'm not a "gun smith", but I am a factory Smith and Wesson and Beretta armorer. I love working on pistols. I could have made a good deal of money fixing pistols over the years but I’m the type of person that has a hard time charging to do something that I know how to do.

I just like the satisfaction of taking something that doesn't work and making it work. I had a deputy bring his Beretta to me because it "quit shooting". After checking it out it turns out he used gun scrubber to clean it every time he shot it. The gun scrubber removed all the residue from the gun but the gunk went into the firing pin channel and locked it up solid. He had been carrying a pistol that wouldn't fire for probably a couple of weeks. I had to drift the pin out to clean it. 

The next night he made a traffic stop on a car he didn't know was stolen. Fortunately for him his pistol fired and he beat the animal driving the car to the draw.


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## TooManyGizmos (Nov 22, 2009)

I like happy endings :twothumbs


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## 1wrx7 (Nov 23, 2009)

gorn said:


> I'm not a "gun smith", but I am a factory Smith and Wesson and Beretta armorer. I love working on pistols. I could have made a good deal of money fixing pistols over the years but I’m the type of person that has a hard time charging to do something that I know how to do.
> 
> I just like the satisfaction of taking something that doesn't work and making it work. I had a deputy bring his Beretta to me because it "quit shooting". After checking it out it turns out he used gun scrubber to clean it every time he shot it. The gun scrubber removed all the residue from the gun but the gunk went into the firing pin channel and locked it up solid. He had been carrying a pistol that wouldn't fire for probably a couple of weeks. I had to drift the pin out to clean it.
> 
> The next night he made a traffic stop on a car he didn't know was stolen. Fortunately for him his pistol fired and he beat the animal driving the car to the draw.


 
Awsome reply:thumbsup: The $$$ thing is also something I've thought about. I have people in my life who I will help because they help me:grouphug: On the other hand... there are people who will get charged full price, or discounted untill I know 100% that I know what I'm doing. Since I know a lot of gun people I already have donors for several projects Problem is I can't take them up on the offer until I'm sure I know what I'm doing:green: I can always replace stock parts, but I don't want a mistake to happen with someone else's firearm. I also feel that if someone who actually uses their firearm for their job hires me they will get a discount. All in all this is something I enjoy and something I'll use the rest of my life... if I can make a career out of it then I'lll finally be living the american dream If not at least I didn't quit my day job over a pipe dream. I need to be careful though... if my job realizes I've learned how to weld and machine parts, they might want me to do a lot more work for them:duh2:

So Gorn, did you go to S&W and Berreta and take their in house courses? That must have been a lot of fun I'm also glad that you took the inititive.... gunsmiths seem to be in high demand today.


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## 1wrx7 (Nov 23, 2009)

Diesel_Bomber said:


> Hey, I think the NRA membership is worth it just for the magazine subscription. Love my American Rifleman............
> 
> Have fun with the course, 1wrx7! :buddies:


 
Rifleman has always been my choice:buddies:... and thank you for the support:twothumbs Fun is what life is all about... I hope I have a lot of it


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## gorn (Nov 23, 2009)

I took the Smith and Wesson and Beretta law enforcement/military training. I was a lead firearms instructor for my Department. Beretta came to my headquarters for the class. Smith and Wesson put on the class in an old civil war era prison in Carson City Nevada. The training from both was first rate. Even the instruction on hand fitting parts where you have to file of 1/100th of an inch was fun once you got the hang of it


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## 1wrx7 (Nov 24, 2009)

gorn said:


> I took the Smith and Wesson and Beretta law enforcement/military training. I was a lead firearms instructor for my Department. Beretta came to my headquarters for the class. Smith and Wesson put on the class in an old civil war era prison in Carson City Nevada. The training from both was first rate. Even the instruction on hand fitting parts where you have to file of 1/100th of an inch was fun once you got the hang of it


 

Leave it to a company with an amazing history like S&W to do something that cool:twothumbs I'm actually kind of jealous... if things work out well, I'll probally try to take some factory courses too.


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## Justintoxicated (Nov 24, 2009)

Don't forget about California. You can make a lot of money having guns shipped to you, replacing the mag and bullet button etc to make them cali legal, charging a fee and shipping them on their way.


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## Patriot (Nov 24, 2009)

Hey 1wrx7. No gunsmithing professionally but for the most part I do everything besides welding and rebarreling. I refurbish old military rifles including wood, do my own repairs and parts replacements, tune 1911's and do my own trigger's, including double action S&W's. I just finished my second glass smooth, 10.5 pound trigger on an N frame and have done a couple of K and L frames as well. Maybe I'll post a video of it later. I'm just an enthusiast and I learned everything from my dad growing up in my teenage years. He's the wood refinishing expert and probably one of the best in our state. Another local fella taught me the basics of S&W DA revolver trigger jobs. Anyhow, I think it's very cool that you're getting into this field as I already know you're a shooter and enthusiast. I'll be eager to hear how this unfolds for you.


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## 1wrx7 (Nov 25, 2009)

Patriot said:


> Hey 1wrx7. No gunsmithing professionally but for the most part I do everything besides welding and rebarreling. I refurbish old military rifles including wood, do my own repairs and parts replacements, tune 1911's and do my own trigger's, including double action S&W's. I just finished my second glass smooth, 10.5 pound trigger on an N frame and have done a couple of K and L frames as well. Maybe I'll post a video of it later. I'm just an enthusiast and I learned everything from my dad growing up in my teenage years. He's the wood refinishing expert and probably one of the best in our state. Another local fella taught me the basics of S&W DA revolver trigger jobs. Anyhow, I think it's very cool that you're getting into this field as I already know you're a shooter and enthusiast. I'll be eager to hear how this unfolds for you.


 

I knew you'd drop in sooner or later Some of your pics have definately inspired me. Particularly your M1 and 1911 race gun pics. I mentioned in another thread I wanted to refinish my M1 Garand's wood, and I still do, but now I think I'll wait a little longer until I get through that part of the course. While I've never been a big 1911 guy, it's one of the firearms I need to know inside and out. Seeing your pics made it easy to figure out that I just need to build my own and learn... and end up with something I love.

You mentioned trigger jobs:devil: When I took my CCW class my instructor brought a couple of S&W revolvers that had trigger work done. I've never felt a double action that felt like that I think trigger jobs will be one of my favorite things to do. I need to get one of my own to work on first... the revolvers I own now are single action, but friends of mine have several S&W revolvers. I'm betting once they shoot one with a trigger job, they'll be lining up The stock triggers don't feel bad, but there's something special about a glass smooth DA trigger pull.


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## 1wrx7 (Nov 25, 2009)

Justintoxicated said:


> Don't forget about California. You can make a lot of money having guns shipped to you, replacing the mag and bullet button etc to make them cali legal, charging a fee and shipping them on their way.


 

You bring up a good point. The CA laws are a little different:tinfoil: along with a few other states. I wonder if I could do this any cheaper than the dealers in CA already do:shrug: It's easy enough to put a 10rnd mag into an AR or AK, but to rework a Hi Cap gun to only allow Low Cap mags would probally take some serious work. I'll add that to the list of things to research, Thanks:thumbsup:


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## TooManyGizmos (Nov 25, 2009)

Just be careful you don't do trigger jobs like I did , as a non-gunsmith.

After doing what I thought was a trigger job on my Match grade M1A ... I was called off the firing line for double-fires. ( I should have known that match grade was good enough )

Just a little more honing and it probably would have been going full-auto !

That was a little embarrasing ..... but I was shooting very tight double-groups. I had to buy another sear and trigger group assembly . I learned my lesson ....call on a professional !

I decided not to try trigger jobs on the two select wood M1 Garand's I have. That was a long time ago.
.


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## 1wrx7 (Nov 25, 2009)

TooManyGizmos said:


> Just be careful you don't do trigger jobs like I did , as a non-gunsmith.
> 
> After doing what I thought was a trigger job on my Match grade M1A ... I was called off the firing line for double-fires. ( I should have known that match grade was good enough )
> 
> ...


 

Supposedly... I can't verify it because my course materials won't be here until the 30th ...the course I'm taking has extensive trigger job information I certainly hope their claims are accurate While full auto is fun, it's illegal. And even if I were to get my class III firearms license I can't do simple mods to firearms to make them full auto. I would have to spend thousands to buy legal full auto guns. In a way I know what you're talking about. My Walther P99 .40S&W pistol (completely stock) can produce a rate of fire that makes you think it's a sub-machine gun:devil: On privite property where we've been able to take advantage of it... the Walther always shocks people.

A good friend just got a custom Kimber 1911. The trigger pull is great so I doubt I could improve on that. Although maybe down the road he will let me play with the chamber so it will feed HP ammo reliably. If I build my 1911 race gun and it feeds right I'm sure he will give in. If I spent the money on a custom Kimber I doubt I would want to have someone work on it either:sweat:

On the bright side... at least your double tap groups were tight:naughty:


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## TooManyGizmos (Nov 25, 2009)

Yes - full auto is illegal without the stamp of approval.

I was not trying to make it full-auto ...... I just messed up.
And was told to get it off the firing range - pronto.

That's what can happen when you try to be a do-it-yourselfer.
.
(the range-master was not impressed and didn't think it was funny)


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## Patriot (Nov 26, 2009)

TooManyGizmos said:


> I decided not to try trigger jobs on the two select wood M1 Garand's I have. That was a long time ago.
> .




My dad and I do full trigger jobs on M1A's and M1 Garands. We can tune them anywhere from 3.5 - 5.5 lbs which is usually a huge improvement from a 6-7 lb trigger. Additionally all the creep is eliminated and the engagements points are all re-honed for squareness. The break ends up being much more crisp than the stock as well. When it's finished you can actually here the difference by ear alone. Anyhow, PM me if you'd ever like one done, I only need the trigger assembly itself. Turn around time is typically less than two weeks. I've done 7 or 8 full triggers jobs on M1's myself and my dad has done about 30.

All of these have 4.0-4.5 lb match triggers except for two .308 chambered guns that have 3.5 lb triggers.








1wrx7, here is some of our woodwork.....













Regarding the Kimber trigger that you mentioned, like you said most are pretty good but it's fairly easy to improve upon them a bit. If you're just shooting matches or casual target that extra bit of work can make a huge difference. For that gun a carbon fiber trigger body reduces the mass enough that lightening pull weights is cake. For general purpose or defense I'd never take it below 4.0lbs though.


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## TooManyGizmos (Nov 27, 2009)

Oh-Mye ..... that's some SERIOUS eye candy , Patriot .

My mouth is watering

.


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## 1wrx7 (Nov 27, 2009)

TooManyGizmos said:


> Oh-Mye ..... that's some SERIOUS eye candy , Patriot .
> 
> My mouth is watering
> 
> .


 
+10000000, those are the M1 pics I mentioned earlier. Thanks for posting them again here:thumbsup: They give me insiration:naughty: Every time I see them I want to srtip down my Garand and see what the grain looks like under the flat black finish the previous owner put on the wood. 

The wood on my AK came out good when I finished it, but Patriot's M1 pics make me want to wait until I learn a little more about refinishing. Then I'll work on the M1.






I'll go and find your Heavy Ordinance thread because I think you mentioned it, but I'll ask here too. Theres a couple of the M1's where you reworked the metal finish on the actions. Is that a nitre blue finish? The course I'm taking teaches how to do cold bluing, parkerising, and nitre bluing. Appperently the nitre finish is in very high demand and can pull in a nice price tag if you can do it right. Not to mention the pride in making something look even more beautiful.

EDIT... In the Heavy Ordinance thread you said the bluing was done by a master, but didn't mention the process type. Do you know what type was used? Thanks again for posting the M1 pics. If you have any other pics you might think apply to this thread please post them... if you have the time.


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## Patriot (Nov 27, 2009)

1wrx7, the work you did on your AK forward grip looks excellent! It appears to be very smooth and dense as if you filled all of the pores in the grain. I'm not sure what product you used but it looks like a very hard finish. Nice work man. I think you should strip that black M1 stock and see what's under the surface. You're obviously skilled enough to proceed with what ever you'd like to do with it. Chances are you'll find some beautiful walnut or birch underneath...and hey, nothing you do to the stock will be permanent. You could certainly refinish it now and if you do it again later if you decide too. This is the best way of learning. I've got Enfield and Mauser stocks that have been refinished 6 or 8 times...no sweat. 


The blued finishes on the M1s are regular or rust blued. Nitre blueing is fine for smaller, non stressed parts but you don't want to Nitre blue bolts or other stressed pieces due to the high temp process of Nitre blueing. Heating metal to over 600F can change its properties. Also, Nitre blueing isn't quite as durable and isn't ideal for parts that will be handled a lot. Screws, triggers, and other small pieces are fine though. 

The barreled actions of our M1's were outsourced to a blueing pro so we didn't do those. We do cold blueing which turns out amazingly good when we do our job correctly with the metal prep. 


I made a couple of video's about my most recent trigger job on a S&W Model 629. It's not a technical video since I wasn't showing the actual steps. That's just too detailed and my camera doesn't focus that close up. In any case I did share the results of the trigger break weights and shared some discussion about a few different S&W models. I guess any gun enthusiast might enjoy. I try to get that posted later here if you'd like.


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## da.gee (Nov 27, 2009)

This Thanksgiving I photographed a few of my Dad's M1s. There's a couple in the gun sacks behind too. I think he's misfiled a few as well as I saw one in with the gazillion Enfields and maybe one in the Mauser section on the other side of his gun room. They're all shooters says Dad so I'm not sure how he'd feel about prettying them up. He's looking for more too! I have M1 envy.

Good luck with your gunsmithing!


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## 1wrx7 (Nov 27, 2009)

Thanks for the kind words Patriot:thumbsup: I hope I can make the most of the education. 

The AK was my first firearms wood refinishing project. The butstock was done with the same Minwax Bombay Mohagany stain/sealer I used on the foregrip... along with lots of sandpaper and steel wool. The finish did come out very smooth and dense. Unfortunately I thought I needed one more coat on the butstock Thankfully when I get the time I can make it right:sweat: It's not too bad, but it doesn't look the way it should... notice I only pictured the foregrip Like you said wood if forgiving, and you can work on it over and over if needed. Experience is the best teacher.

I'm very torn on the Garand. The guy who refinished it did an excelent job Since I have several other "tactical"... ie... "black rifles" I think the Garand should show off it's wood grain. On the other hand I've been so busy that I don't want to rush a project that I want to come out great. Looking at all of the different grains shown in your picture, it's not a matter of if... it's a matter of when:devil: It will be like Christmas finding out what the wood looks like bare... let alone finished

Thanks for the info on the metal finishing, and feel free to post videos or whatever when you get the chance. I said before... I'm open to all opinions and ideaslovecpf


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## 1wrx7 (Nov 27, 2009)

da.gee said:


> This Thanksgiving I photographed a few of my Dad's M1s. There's a couple in the gun sacks behind too. I think he's misfiled a few as well as I saw one in with the gazillion Enfields and maybe one in the Mauser section on the other side of his gun room. They're all shooters says Dad so I'm not sure how he'd feel about prettying them up. He's looking for more too! I have M1 envy.
> 
> Good luck with your gunsmithing!


 
Man... you guys are killing me with these Garands... but I like the pain:green: Keep it comming


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## Patriot (Nov 27, 2009)

da.gee said:


> This Thanksgiving I photographed a few of my Dad's M1s. There's a couple in the gun sacks behind too. I think he's misfiled a few as well as I saw one in with the gazillion Enfields and maybe one in the Mauser section on the other side of his gun room. They're all shooters says Dad so I'm not sure how he'd feel about prettying them up. He's looking for more too! I have M1 envy.




Very Cool da.gee!

Btw, there's really nothing that your dad could do to devalue these M1 with some TLC if he so chose so. In practical terms, there's really no such thing as an "original" Garand when it comes to DCM/CPM guns for example. These parts have likely been replace many times and it's not uncommon to find SA parts on Winchester guns and visa-versa. If you refinish wood, you'll want to be mindful not to sand down stamps or cartouches but oven very little sanding is required anyhow. I simply place a layer or two of masking tape over sensitive areas. When the stocks are stained the cartouche is typically enhanced some which tends to looks very nice. in the first of my previous pictures you can see a cartouche on the 5th rifle, right below the the rear lugs of the receiver (below the rear sight block). 

Here are all of the various stock stamps...



This same thing typically goes for reparkerizing since DCM guns were often refinished or have stained parkerizing from sitting in 55 gallon preservation drums for so long. Some parkerizing starts to turn bronze colored after a while.


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## da.gee (Nov 27, 2009)

Thanks for the link Patriot. I will share it with my Dad and also link to your work. You've got some great looking pieces there. 

Dad is well schooled on historical and practical knowledge of his hobby and has surely CMPed more than I (or Mom) know. He would definitely know what not to do with a gun that was being refurbished. He's waiting for a Greek M1 from CMP right now because clearly he does not have enough M1s. His main interest is shooting his guns but he's also spent a lot of time over the decades matching and combining parts on his rifles to make them "correct". Where ever there is not a gun in his overcrowded gun room there is a book shelf or stack of books on firearms or some aspect of the military. He's dedicated to the task for sure and I'm glad he can enjoy his hobby and I'm always happy to tag along and shoot all the fun firearms he owns. :naughty:

It is a little annoying when I mention I'm interested in a particular gun and he pulls out four variations of the same model or five from the same manufacturer. I know where my tendency to go full bore into a hobby comes from. At least I have better flashlights than him! Ha!

Sorry to derail the thread.


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## BIGIRON (Nov 29, 2009)

De ja vu' all over again! I was the last BCT cycle to go thru Ft Polk w/ M1's. I can remember the serial # but not my wedding anniversary.


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## 1wrx7 (Dec 4, 2009)

The other night a couple of friends stopped by with some new toys:devil: One brought his first AR he just bought. They wanted to stop by a shop in my area to see if they had some parts in stock. I'm trying not to spend any more $$$ right now, so I couldn't go with them.... that would be like dropping a crackhead off in a bad neighborhood:tsk: While they were gone I decided to do a basic strip down of the new AR... it's a piston driven version. I haven't had the chance to check one out in person yet, and most gun stores don't want you to take them apart. I like the simplicity of the design and I can't wait to shoot it I snapped a few pics, the first is a shot of the gas block/piston housing....







This one is a comparison of some BCA's....






Notice the staking of the gas keys. Looks like I need to stake the AR10 BCA properly since it wasn't done right at the factoy:thumbsdow... more tools to buy:naughty: The top BCA is from my S&W AR15... great staking job. The middle is from my new DPMS AR10... bad staking job. The last is my friends which requires no staking because there's no gas key:thumbsup: I love the concept of piston driven AR's but, I really have no experience with it yet. It should be fun to see if the concept lives up to the hype.

The only smithing, or should I say swapping, I got to do on the AR was replacing the pistol grip. Somehow I'm sure he will want to do some more work after he get's used to the rifle. Since he's new I'm trying to convince him to wait to see what he really want's from the rifle instead of seeing something that looks cool and buying parts he'll regret later. I'm also wondering about the cutaway difference between the AR15 BCA's. My friends looks more like the AR10, while mine has more material removed. Does the weight difference make a difference either way:thinking:... more research to do.

I also recieved my Gunsmithing course I've been busy this week:tired: and just going through the 52lb of stuff and 140 line items on the invoice took a lot more time than I thought it would. Thankfully I don't have to work this weekend so I should be able to devote a lot of time to my education, and I need to reorganize the safe a little bit. I hope everybody has a good weekendlovecpf


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## Patriot (Dec 5, 2009)

Great stuff 1wrx7. I enjoyed the pics. For recreational and competitive shooting the lighter the bolt the better. I'm only guessing but I think the extra beef in the piston BCA probably has something to do with the extra hammering it takes from the back of the piston. A certain mass has probably been established that's ideal for the piston weight and gas volume for that particular manufacturer. To my knowledge, there is no standard gas port size and it seems that each maker is making up specs for their own systems. I don't own a piston AR myself but I come from the M1A and FAL school of hard knocks so needless to say I love the design and only see it as a win/win situation whether it's necessary in the AR or not. Who wouldn't love the simplicity and robustness? Btw, I just noticed that it looks like they're using the gas plug directly from a FAL. Wow...how cool is that!


I'm very glad to hear about your course training and materials. I think this is a fantastic move that your making and I'm excited to hear about your progression. I'm sure you'll be teaching us some great stuff soon. Also, if you end up staking your gas key, please take some pics of it. It looks like DPMS uses the indentation method from the side but they sort of missed the forward screw didn't they.


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## 1wrx7 (Dec 6, 2009)

Thanks for the encouragement Patriot:thumbsup: and for confirming my thoughts on the BCA designs. I was assuming what you had said, but I hate to assume. The extra mass on both the piston system and the 7.62 makes sense. 

Awhile back I read about a tool specificly for staking gas keys called the mother of all staking tools. I blew it off at the time because I had no real need for it. When I got the DPMS I thought about it again... thankfully the hamster didn't fall off the wheel Now I need to look into it to make sure it will handle the larger BCA's as well. When it's done I'll make sure to take pics... and now that I think of it I bet the 24" DPMS my friend has is suffering from the same kind of staking:thinking:

I'm not familliar with the FAL system yet, but the plugs do look alike. I didn't photograph itbut you press the plunger on the side and rotate the plug 90deg to remove it. Then a ported plug about 1 1/2" long comes out, followed by the piston which is nothing more than a disc/piston face attatched to a long rod. If nothing else I love the thought of not having hot dirty gas being shot into the chamber:green: It should run much cooler and cleaner.

Yesterday I spent over eight hours learning basic nomenclature used in the course and the design and function of single action locked breach pistols, specificly the 1911. Before yesterday I knew nothing more than how to operate a 1911... and it's amazing history. Today I feel I could strip one down, identify the majority of the parts and depending on the problem, diagnose some of the more common issues that occur with it I was real nervous about spending the money to do this, but starting yesterday all doubts are gone. The course is for real, and now it's all on me to make the most of it. Today I'll be continuing with the 1911 system, moving on the the Browning High Power, and then double action auto pistols.

Here's a couple more pics of the travel of the piston rod in the upper reciever, they're kind of blurry but you'll get the idea


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## Patriot (Dec 11, 2009)

I can see you pictures perfectly well 1wrx7. Haha...everything looks so small and delicate compared the the M1A and FAL. But yeah, a very nice design and it's neat that the AR just keeps getting better with age. 

I'll be eager to see your gas key re-staking if you get that tool. Anything called the "Mother of All" has got to be cool! Be sure to show us the tool as well. 

Eight hours of straight study...man you are really getting into it and I think that's great. If you even just learn 1911's inside out you can almost start a business off that alone these days. I feel like posting 1911 parts now like flash cards and having you call them out...lol.

I was looking at the gas plug again on that at and it does look like a stock FAL plug but I'm not sure. How about I post a vid of some various FAL's and show that plug?

........actually I think I can upload something right now for ya.


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## 1wrx7 (Dec 12, 2009)

Since I'm only 31yo. the military rifles I've grown up with are the M16 and the AK-47. Of course there are others in use like the M1 variants and of course the FAL design. The M16 vs AK battle is a great study of almost direct opposite desings. The M16 is a very tight tolerence design that can be very accurate, but can also be problematic because of the lack of slop. On the other hand the AK is generally not as accurate because of it's slop, but perhaps one of the most reliable rifle designs ever. I remember a Vietnam vet recalling an AK found in a village that was hidden away. It was very dirty and probally hadn't been shot for a long time. The soldier broke the action free with his boot, and it cycled like a champ. I doubt a M16 would be so robust. What I'm getting to is the fact that the M16/AR rifle has gone through many changes over the years to make a great design even better. There's been a lot of talk of what the next military battle rifle will be. There have been a lot of contenders but the AR platform keeps proving it has a lot of staying power. While not perfect the design can be modified to perform even better:thumbsup: I don't see the M16 going away anytime soon, or the AK for that matter. If it ain't broke...don't fix it.

I stated earlier I'm trying not to spend more money, but I'll be heading off to the gunshop with some friends in a little while. When I bought my DPMS I was actually looking for a GSG-5 carbine. They only had the pistol version in stock... so I bought the AR-10 instead:naughty: Well it turns out they got some more in stock and they're holding the last one for me. I've always wanted a MP5 but they're a little out of my price range:sick2:.. not to mention all the extra paperwork. With the GSG I'll get the feel of the MP5 but the joy of cheap shooting with .22LR.

Since all the friends are getting together I'll be able to play with several guns I don't own myself. I hope they don't get mad when I start taking them apart further than what you would to for a simple cleaning Besides the GSG the two I'm looking forward to playing with the most are a Kimber 1911 and a S&W R8. Today should be a great day 

Tomorrow I want to work on the gunsmithing, but I'll try to take some photos and post up what should be the first projects I plan on doing with the guns I already own. They include stock refinishing and trigger jobs, I even had one of the lathe hands at my work make me some tools to make the trigger job work easier. I just need my Brownells catalog to get here so I can get some more tools I need. Apperently they'll give me a discount now because I'm a student:naughty: I'm betting they are going to take a lot of my money.


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## Patriot (Dec 12, 2009)

Good luck with the GSG. Nice concept, mostly positive reviews. I hope you can tell us more soon. Perhaps you'll come home with it. 


My video upload failed last night so I'll post it now. 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eMVsyCBx_t0


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## 1wrx7 (Dec 12, 2009)

That's a great video, thanks for taking the time:thumbsup: I knew right away the top one was a DSA, but I had no idea that Springfield made FAL's. While the plugs look similar, the piston system in the Bushmaster I pictured is different. Mainly the lack of a spring. I think I read that Bushmaster based their piston system off of the HK design, but their retrofit kit for DI AR's is a different system. I love the robust designs of the older firearms. These days with advancements in machining and materials we can build things that may look flimsy, but work perfectly fine. Back in the day:laughing: everything was built like a tank. I have a refridgerator in my basement thats older than I am and looks like it could survive a nuclear blast... I can see the ad now... not only does it keep your food cold but....

Is the HK G3 based on the same system as the FAL? Outside appearance looks similar but the insides could be a completely different story. I've wanted one for awhile and almost bought one recently. Then I saw the DPMS and it was more of what I was looking for. Seeing the price jump I wish I would have jumped on a FAL variant when they were $400 at the gun shows.

I did get the GSG today My only complaint is the cheap plastic furniture it comes with, but I knew that going in. My co-worker who has two bought the colapsable stock which seems to be much more robust, and a SF MP5 front handguard. The Handguard doesn't fit though. Since we have machining equipment at work I'm sure we can make it fit, he just keeps forgetting to bring it in to work on. The GSG railed handguard is a complete waste of money so I need to get him to bring his in to modify, that way I will know if I want to do the same. It seems like a fun little plinker with a little more character than the run of the mill 10-22.

Thanks again for the video, but now you have me wanting to take another trip to the gunshop


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## Patriot (Dec 13, 2009)

Congrats on your GSG man!!! I want to see  I'll bet you're excited tonight. Can't wait to hear more because that looks like a really fun plinker. 

Glad that you liked the vid. I saw after I made it that the light was pretty bad but oh well. At least you could get the general idea. 

The G3 / HK91 is a different design and doesn't use a gas system. It uses delayed blow-back of the roller bearing type. Very robust and reliable but heavier recoil. The felt recoil of the FAL is noticeably less and is also more controllable in full auto although both are useless except while prone from the bi-pod. The FAL is a more elegant and slim design and so I favor it.

Springfield imported the FAL from Imbel of Brazil and called it the SAR-48. It was one of the finest FAL examples ever made and the Imbel receivers were known for their strength. The DSA is probably its equal though from what I've seen and heard. Springfield also imported the HK91 during the same time period and called it the SAR-8. I've fired them but never owned on. The HK was just never my bag.

Century Arms sold parts gun FAL's for a while and they were typically the least expensive floating around the market. The quality was rough though. I still see them here and there for $600-800. Also, most of them were inch guns instead of metric so parts aren't as abundant. 

Please pass us a report of the GSG when you get the chance. Better yet shoot it because I'm curious about the reliability. :twothumbs


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## 1wrx7 (Dec 13, 2009)

Here's the GSG along with the DPMS







I'm kind of torn on the finish. All that was available was their first anniversary version that comes with the two tone grey/black finish. Sometimes I like it, and sometimes I wish it were all black. I told a co-worker as long as I can get one I wouldn't care if it was pink:laughing: I can always refiinish it. If the rumors are true and these won't be avaialbe anymore maybe the anniversary edition will be worth more money:shrug:... not that I plan on selling it.

There's a new indoor range right down the street from me. I'm not sure if I'll have the time before the holidays, but my company shuts down between X-mas and new years. I plan on doing a lot of studying in that time, but I'm sure I'll take a field trip or two to the range. I have to call to make sure, but I think I can shoot anything up to a 30-06 there... indoors:devil: That will be a change, I'm used to only being able to shoot pistols indoors. I also have a .22 trap in my basement. I used to shoot my air rifle down there... until I noticed the ricochet My air rifle weighs more than my Garand does, and it's pretty high power. I might actually be safer shooting sub sonic .22's down there... but I think I'll wait until I know how the GSG aims

The Century FAL's were the ones I used to see cheap at the gun shows. Good to know there are inch and metric versions. It always drove me crazy when working on a car that used both:shakehead The FAL has been on my to buy list for years, along with about 50 other firearms. A co-worker and I were talking about the G3 and FAL on friday. Now I have a little bit better info to give him. He's on the fence between the two... want's a 7.62mm NATO but want's something other than an AR-10. 

Which brings us to the next pic, it's some of the books that came with the gunsmithing course. Specificly the three Jack First books on the bottom of the stack. They're a collection of exploded view diagrams of hundreds of different firearms. One book for pistols, shotguns, and rifles. I'm about to grab the rifle book and look up the FAL and G3.







I did a quick check and couldn't find the FAL or the G3:thinking: the only HK in the book is the 93 and there were only two FN's I think this is the 49' you showed in your video.






For copyright purpose this image was taken from the Jackfirst gun parts book 13, volume 2 rifle parts.


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## Patriot (Dec 15, 2009)

That's sort of strange that the FAL and G3 weren't in the book. That's the FN49 though!

For the G3 you might also look under Cetme or HK41. In can't imagine the FAL being under anything but Fabrique National.

The GSG would like nice all black and wouldn't involve too much. You could use Aluma HydeII or DuraCoat.


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## Patriot (Dec 20, 2009)

Not exactly "smithing" but friends have asked that I do a detailed field strip sequence of the main assemblies of the Ruger Mark II & III type pistol. Besides, I'm tired of putting their guns back together for them. You know who you are...lol.

It's finally finished.

Part 1

Part 2 

Part 3


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## 1wrx7 (Dec 28, 2009)

Nice walkthroughs Patriot:twothumbs I know some people aren't gunguys... but the Ruger seems pretty simple. I almost bought one years ago, but then a small Taurus caught my eye. In hindsight I wish I bought the Ruger:thinking: Maybe the videos will get your friends to realize how easy it is to take down their pistols. In my expierience the first couple times you strip a gun it's a slow process. Once you're used to it it's scary how quickly you can do it. One thing I love about a new firearm is taking it apart and seeing how things work. With my two new ones, the DPMS and the GSG... the DPMS is the same as what I'm used to, just bigger. The GSG is a new beast, but pretty simple. Even more so now that I've done some work to it:devil:

I've been doing research on the GSG to find out all the basic issues that people have experienced. Most problems seem to be attributed to things GSG should have done themselves. Most noteably is their use of probally the crappiest hardware you can use when building a firearm. Soft self-tapping type screws are used when a quality hard bolt is needed. I bought a replacement hardware kit and I've replaced about 85% of the hardware so far. The odd thing is in the frame and BCA, for lack of a better term, there are hex shaped notches for nuts:shrug: So why on earth would they cast these notches and then use a self tapper with no nut:hairpull: There have been examples of cracked BCA's attributed to the use of these soft screws. I'm hoping that the upgraded hardware kit will keep this from happening to me. If nothing else I read it would be a good idea to locktite all stock hardware and make sure everything was tight. While replacing the hardware I found several screws that weren't even tight:sigh: I've warned everyone I know who owns a GSG about this.

The other thing GSG should have done was dampened the charging handle tube. There are cheaper ways of fixing the problem, but I bought a delrin buffer designed for the GSG that gets installed into the cocking tube. This keeps the charging handle from smacking the reciever when manually cocking the action. I guess this puts a lot of stress on the charging handle sometimes causing it to break... not to mention all the extra wear on the reciever. Now that the battery for the camera is charged let's see some pics.

The first pic is of the difference in hardware. On the left is the stock screw in screw vs. the HK push pins that I replaced them with. There are three of them to remove the stock, front foregrip and trigger housing assy. The top one is the stock stuff and the bottom is the push pin. On the right is stock hardware vs. the stuff I relaced it with. The push pins aren't needed but it makes take down much easier.






The next couple of pics show an example of where I replaced hardware... note the recesses for the nuts. I have to ask again... why did GSG use the crappy hardware:shrug:











The next one shows how there is now a gap so the charging handle cannot hit the reciever when the action is manually charged. Before the delrin buffer the handle would smack the notch in the reciever






The last pic is the complete carbine now that I'm done with it. The colapseablle stock and the railed front grip weren't needed... but I like them:devil: I had to be able to mount a light didn't I?... I am a flashaholic. And while I'm not a fan of lasers on firearms, .22's are a different story. I think the GSG will end up with a laser for some cheap fun shooting.











Right now there is a SF M600 scoutlight with an E-C adaptor so it can use a Cree drop-in. The M600 is one of my faviorites because of it's versitillity. I have a lot of different E series type heads to swap around. I might add a claw mount so I can add a cheap red dot sight in the future. Since I've read that the stock iron sights are great, I'll hold off on optics for now.

Happy Holidays everybody... I know I'm having fun...


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## jmcf1949 (Dec 29, 2009)

Not a gunsmith here just enjoy shooting and being a 2nd Ammendment advocate. If I ever need my Sig P226 worked on I'll send you an e-mail. I appear to be from your neck of the woods.

Jim - Semper Fi


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## Patriot (Dec 31, 2009)

Hey there 1wrx7. Your pictures are excellent! Well, before I say anything bad about the GSG I just want to say that you've done a wonderful job of upgrading and changing out critical parts. It seems that you've been very thorough and meticulous about the entire process and haven't missed any steps. Just like a Gunsmith should be! :thumbsup: 

On the bad side it is a shame that GSG didn't place a little bit more thought and parts decision effort into this gun. The core workings of any gun should be solid, reliable and be able to stand up to many tens or hundreds of thousands of rounds, especially a .22 where the stresses are low. No firearm should have to be "upgraded" like you would have to do with a budget paintball or airsoft gun. As much as I like the cool factor of the GSG in the looks department, it would be very difficult for me to choose it given the choice of a nice Ruger 10-22. A person could get a Ruger, put a Volquartsen barrel on it, a tuned trigger, and purchase half a dozen 25rd Butler Creek mags and have a high cap, precision .22 tack driver, all for about the same price. Obviously it would need an optic but neither gun comes with one of those. You've taken the steps yourself to make the gun what it should have been and that's great. I just don't know if I'd be willing to do the same given the price point of this .22. With that said, you've made a great investment and this gun will probably operate wonderfully now. You'll never lose any money on it either.

Please keep us informed and give us your shooting impressions!


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## Vee3 (Dec 31, 2009)

Gunsmithing is a great hobby. You never stop learning, and after ~10 years doing it you can have more practical knowledge than some PhD's. There's sooooo much to learn about mechanical design, science/math, chemestry, machining, metallurgy, foundry/blacksmithing, woodworking, welding/soldering, even art. All of these skills will cross over to other areas where you can use them for other work.

I learned from my Dad; aerospace engineer, shade-tree gunsmith, and general tinkerer. Only man I've ever known that never had anyone to the house to fix anything, and never took a car or anything else to a shop (except for waranty work or tire installation). 

I still have some of the sporter Springfields, Mausers and other rifles he built in the 50's - 80's. I've done all of the work on my guns (about 75 presently, but many more have passed through my hands). Most of mine are older ones from the late 1800's - 1960's.

One way I've learned a lot about specific models is simply by taking them completely apart for cleaning and/or refinishing and puting them back together. I get a lot of satisfaction out of taking an old rusty clunker apart and making it work and look beautiful again.

Black powder cannons are fun too. Here's a mould I recently built for a guy with a Civil War style ~1/3 scale Parrott rifle he made from a surplus 30mm GAU-8 rifled barrel section. He claims to have gotten a 5" 3-shot group at 75 yds. Not bad for something on wheels...






Slug (3460 grains) next to a 40mm ball (crummy castings, but I was just testing moulds)...


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## 1wrx7 (Dec 31, 2009)

Vee3 said:


> Gunsmithing is a great hobby. You never stop learning, and after ~10 years doing it you can have more practical knowledge than some PhD's. There's sooooo much to learn about mechanical design, science/math, chemestry, machining, metallurgy, foundry/blacksmithing, woodworking, welding/soldering, even art. All of these skills will cross over to other areas where you can use them for other work.


 
I couldn't have said it better myself:twothumbs When I'm interested in something I love to learn as much as I can about it. Like your list states, there are so many concepts that apply to gunsmithing I won't run out of learning oppourtunities for years And of course I should be able to use the knowladge in many other situations. Awsome molds too... I can't imagine how much fun it is to shoot a cannon... even a 1/3 scale version.

I'm hoping to find a few guns that people don't want to deal with anymore and turn an ugly duckling into a swan.

jmcf1949.... If you ever need anything done I would be happy to help a fellow CPF'er. First I need to make sure I know what I'm doing though:tinfoil:

Patriot... I feel the same as you on the shortcuts GSG made. Replacing the hardware and making a buffer are very cheap fixes though. While I bought comercial fixes, if I got a list of all the bolt sizes I could have found them locally for even cheaper. There's also another buffer fix you can do for around $1 with a trip to the hardware store. Since I was ordering stuff anyway I just went with the fixes they had available. Sometimes convienence is worth a couple extra bucks. Even knowing the GSG had some issues to deal with, I couldn't help buying it. I love the MP5 form and the GSG allowed me to get my fix. I've also read that their customer service is very good.... hopefully I'll never need to find out myself.

On the 10-22, I've been meaning to buy one for awhile. If nothing else, there are so many of them out there I'll need one to use as an example of work I'm able to do to them. Besides the AR platform I don't think there is another rifle that you can customize as much as the 10-22. Wether you want a tack driver target gun, or a MG42 lookalike:devil:... the 10-22 delivers. One of the instructors in the course talked about how his customized 10-22 was one of the best selling points for his buisness. People would see what he did and then...."Can you do that for me?" I've experienced some of that with my S&W AR-15. Now if these people actually wanted to spend the money, I would have built a handful of custom AR's already.

On a completely different subject...AMC is showing the Three Stooges all day long today I forgot how funny they are...Nyuck, Nyuck, Nyuck:nana:.... and a happy new year to everyone here at CPF. I almost hate to say it but, I doubt 2010 could be as bad as 2009


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## Patriot (Jan 3, 2010)

Vee3, I love those big castings. I grew up casting lead bullets by the tens of thousands to feed several family machine guns. The largest that we casted was 1 ounce 12 gauge slugs but it was a single place and it took a long time for the mold to warm up to operating temperature. I can tell that the mold was too cold on you big projectiles too due to the layering effect, but like you stated, you were just practicing. Very cool, and nice work.  The larger the projectile and the mold, the more difficult to get them perfect.


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## Vee3 (Jan 3, 2010)

Yeah, it takes a bit of heat to get large aluminum moulds up to speed. I had to hit the 30mm one with a propane torch for 5 minutes before I could get good slugs out of it. Sometimes I just dip a corner of the mould into the pot for a few minutes.

Here's one of my model cannons; a ~1/4 scale French 75 Mod 1897. Barrel was made using a Hastings 12 ga rifled slug barrel blank. For legal requirements, it's a muzzle-loader with a caplock unlike the original breech-loader...
















Couple of my Civil War style mortars...
















Just bought my 1st ever plastic fantastic "EBR" (evil black rifle) today; a Sig 522.


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## Patriot (Jan 15, 2010)

Great pictures Vee! Thanks for posting them. :thumbsup:











Here's my latest on the Browning Buckmark......

1 of 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9uKc7JxyJ8g

2 of 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_nhqxzPNLLE


.


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## Patriot (Feb 24, 2010)

1wrx7,

I was just curious how your GSG is holding up. I'm seeing a lot of them returned to ATI lately for warranty work.


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## burgessdi (Feb 24, 2010)

1wrx7 said:


> I should add some ground rules here. No one has offended yet, but with a thread involving firearms, it can get turned into something that could get shut down quickly.



Well you wont find ME objecting to firearms. Good luck. Sounds like a rewarding profession. :twothumbs


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## IcantC (Sep 23, 2011)

1wrx7 it's been a while now, how are things going?


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## shao.fu.tzer (Sep 27, 2011)

I'm not formally trained, but I've been doing all of my own work since I was 11... never paid a gunsmith... probably never will...


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## cdrake261 (Sep 28, 2011)

I always wanted to gunsmith 1911's...have to wait till I make more money


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