# Ultrafire charger overcharging cells?



## BBL (Feb 22, 2007)

I noticed my cells read up to 4.3 V after charging them with the ultrafire li-ion charger. Has someone else noticed that?

As far as i know, this is not healthy for the cells. I dont want to destroy $100 worth of cells with a $16 charger...


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## abvidledUK (Feb 22, 2007)

For 3.6v RCR123 cells that voltage is exactly correct with my chargers too.

4.3v charged is the norm using my soshine chargers.

Only thing to worry about, can your bulb, incandescent or LED take that voltage, which will reduce a bit under load.


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## Tronic (Feb 22, 2007)

I have notice the same thing with my Ultrafire charger. At the time the LED switch to green the cells read 4.2 - 4.25V. 
If I leave the cells in the charger over night the cells read up to 4.35V! 
This is really high for Li-ion and will significant reduce the cycle life!


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## Curious_character (Feb 22, 2007)

What standards have you folks used to establish the accuracy of your meters?

c_c


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## abvidledUK (Feb 22, 2007)

Curious_character said:


> What standards have you folks used to establish the accuracy of your meters?
> 
> c_c



Perhaps we all bought our meters from the same shop, so they must all be inaccurate !! :lolsign: 

I have several meters, battery testers, DMM's, and they all read similar voltages, off load, off charge.


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## SilverFox (Feb 22, 2007)

Hello BBL,

Li-Ion chargers are supposed to shut off at the end of the charge. It appears that these chargers continue to trickle charge after the green light comes on. 

Trickle charging after the full charge is not healthy for Li-Ion cells.

4.200 volts was chosen as a full charge in an effort to balance capacity and cycle life. When you charge to 4.200 volts you can expect 300 - 500 cycles from your cells.

If you charge above 4.4 volts, you are very close to the voltage that triggers rapid venting with flame.

If you charge to 4.3 volts, you will get roughly 18% increased capacity, but your cycle life drops down to roughly 10 - 20 cycles, or less. I don't think this is a worthwhile trade off.

Continuing to trickle charge at the end of a charge cycle, and charging to a higher voltage bring you closer to a rapid venting with flame incident. I prefer to use a charger with a "proper" charging algorithm. It may initially cost more, but my cells will last longer and in the end, it may actually save me some money. On top of this are the safety issues.

Tom


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## Paul_in_Maryland (Feb 22, 2007)

Life is too short to have to babysit one's charger. SilverFox, is there any chambered charger--you know, that doesnt' require alligator clips--that lets you set it and forget it? Perhaps the newest Pila charger?


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## SilverFox (Feb 22, 2007)

Hello Paul,

I use the new Pila ICB charger and it seems to follow the Li-Ion charging algorithm very well. Keep in mind that if your cells are lower than 600 mAh, it will be charging at over the 1C recommend charging rate.

Tom


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## Curious_character (Feb 22, 2007)

If your meters actually are correct, then I think you're risking the lifetime of your Li-ion cells by charging them to 4.3 volts, and maybe even risking fire or explosion if it can get any higher. Here's some general information: 

http://www.batteryuniversity.com/partone-12.htm
http://www.powerstream.com/li.htm
http://www.panasonic.com/industrial/battery/oem/images/pdf/Panasonic_LiIon_Charging.pdf

4.2 volts is the recommended charge end voltage, and 4.3 is the recommended backup safety limit to disconnect the charger in case of an internal failure.

c_c


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## abvidledUK (Feb 22, 2007)

I think we need a larger sample than 3 peoples experience.


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## bfg9000 (Feb 22, 2007)

In the olden days we had to modify Li-ion chargers to go _up_ to 4.2v with ye olde resistor trick. By _decreasing_ resistance instead (adding a trimpot in parallel would probably be easiest) perhaps initial voltage could be reduced to 4.1-4.15v (and thus hopefully terminal voltage to 4.25v tops). You'll obviously have to check to see if it doesn't work and still eventually gets to 4.35v, but it's probably worth trying to salvage the charger considering the low cost of a trimpot.


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## cmaylodm (Feb 22, 2007)

My Ultrafire WF-139 will charge my unprotected 14500s way past 4.2 volts if I leave them in there too long (4.37v is the highest I've seen). Tenergy protected 18650s get to 4.2v exactly, and AW protected RCR123 (the new black ones) get up to 4.15v.


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## lrp (Feb 22, 2007)

I have the Ultrafire charger and mine would terminate at 4.1/4.2 but I removed the cell when the light turned green.
I later purchased the Pila charger after reading some posts from Tom and I can tell you that I love the Pila charger. Guess you get what you pay for sometimes.


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## TITAN1833 (Feb 22, 2007)

just read this thread getting worried im going to test my batts and let you know results. john i have the wf-139 gharger AW 18650 AND AW RCR123 CELLS. I also have a good meter ISO TECH -IEK 67


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## waynejitsu (Feb 22, 2007)

abvidledUK said:


> I think we need a larger sample than 3 peoples experience.


 
OK, how about four?

I checked a couple cells after charging with the Ultrafire and it was OVER 4.4!!!
Looks like we may need to sit with the batteries and babysit the cheap charger.

Anyone know of a "good" charger that will not cost a week's wages?


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## AndyTiedye (Feb 22, 2007)

4.35 volts seems perilously close to putting the "FIRE" in "UltraFire" 

If they are protected cells, I would have thought the overcharge protection should
have kicked in before it got so high. Is that faulty too?


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## cy (Feb 22, 2007)

way back not too long ago... before all this li-ion madness started and R123 was still a twinkle in JSB's eyes. Li14430 with it's dougS custom made charger was news. 

had a few conversations with dougS concerning most cheap li-ion chargers. his take was most inexpensive li-ion chargers would not truly terminate charge at 4.2v, but would continue to trickle charge long at you left cell in charger. left long enough voltage would raise to dangerous levels. unless cell is protected like pilas. li-ion cells have no peak and will accept current for long as you deliver it to cell. 

this is the reason I've always tried using a quality charger like Triton and soon to be Schulze for li-ion cells. don't want to catch my house on fire.


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## Paul_in_Maryland (Feb 22, 2007)

No wonder few women are mad enough to join our hobby. They have too much sense.


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## Paul_in_Maryland (Feb 22, 2007)

SilverFox said:


> Hello Paul,
> 
> I use the new Pila ICB charger and it seems to follow the Li-Ion charging algorithm very well. Keep in mind that if your cells are lower than 600 mAh, it will be charging at over the 1C recommend charging rate.
> 
> Tom


Thanks, Tom. Based on your post, I've just ordered one of these Pila chargers.


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## Billson (Feb 23, 2007)

Hi Tom,

I just got this from Pila's website.

Pila IBC™ 4-stage Charger

Charging process

Stage 1 – Automatic analyzing battery status
Stage 2 – Quick charge
Stage 3 – Slow charge
Stage 4 – Standby mode, trickle charge

Since it trickle charges at the end, does it mean we can't leave it unattended?


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## Curious_character (Feb 23, 2007)

The recommendation from the battery manufacturer web site I posted earlier is to charge at 4.2 volts with a current-limited (limited to one C) constant voltage source. So the charger would produce a constant current of one C until the battery voltage rises to 4.2 volts. At that point the battery isn't completely charged, so the charger is supposed to continue applying 4.2 volts until the current drops to C/10. At that point (about 2-1/2 hours after starting), the battery is fully charged and the charge should be terminated -- no "slow charge", no "trickle charge". Terminated. Continuing to apply 4.2 volts (or higher) beyond that point can damage the cell, according to the info.

c_c


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## cy (Feb 23, 2007)

cheap chargers are .... em... cheap chargers!

before I took the leap and purchased my triton. had purchased a load of different chargers. it was not uncommon for different chargers from same mfg to have final voltages from 4.15v to 4.35v. this is as measured after light turned green indicating full charge. 

then if you left cell in cradle, cell would continued to be trickle charged. not good!

note: don't ever purchase charger in Green packaging. some would catch on fire.


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## Norm (Feb 23, 2007)

My batteries are coming off my UltraFire charger at 4.18V, measured with two different meters (I tried a third it measured 4.21V).
Norm


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## SilverFox (Feb 23, 2007)

Hello Bill,

Believe it or not, Pila is actually "stretching" the truth with their specifications... 

First of all, I was expecting their analyze function to reject primary cells. It does not.

Their terminology of fast charge and slow charge is also not totally correct. They should have stated that it follows the CC/CV algorithm for Li-Ion chemistry.

Finally, Li-Ion chemistry can not absorb an overcharge. If you continue to charge a Li-Ion cell, the voltage will continue to rise. The Pila IBC charger shuts off when the green light comes on and the voltage remains stable. There is no "trickle" charge.

So, what was Pila actually trying to say?

Their "analyze" function is to detect if the low voltage protection has latched. With some of the older Pila cells, the low voltage protection would latch quite hard and it would take an amp or so to reset it. The IBC charger is limited to 600 mA, so it can have difficulties if you run into one of these older cells. To help with this, Pila provided a Reset button that gives the cell a 600 mA pulse to get it going.

Their Fast Charge segment is actually the constant current phase of the charge. 

Their Slow Charge segment is actually the constant voltage phase of the charge.

Finally, I have no idea why they state that they have a trickle charge. They don't.

Tom


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## SoundMix (Feb 24, 2007)

Will the new Pila IBC charger properly charge RCR123 3.0 volt and 3.7 volt cells or only 3.7 volt?


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## SilverFox (Feb 24, 2007)

Hello SoundMix,

Welcome to CPF.

Only 3.7 volt cells. With 3.0 volt cells you need to get the charger designed for your particular cells. There are a few different ones out there, and I don't believe they are cross compatible.

Tom


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## doc_felixander (Feb 25, 2007)

I've noticed the same thing.
Final voltage is around 4,25-4,35V with unprotected cells (Sanyo, DLG, no difference). 

This was measured with 2 different DMMs....both cheap ones, but since it's a constant voltage and there's nothing to integrate or whatsoever, these readings are quite accurate.

I'll have a look again at the guts and maybe there's a way.....


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## ROVER (Feb 26, 2007)

Regarding these chargers not terminating charge when they should----is this only a concern when using unprotected cells? Does not a protected cell's circuit open at a certain point to save the day? 

Also, are we all talking about the Ultra Fire WF-139?


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## doc_felixander (Feb 26, 2007)

#1: yes, protected cells will open at max. 4,2V. 
#2: i think so. at least i am.

this leads me to the idea of just installing 2 small protection circuits into the charger (rather than fiddling around with the circuit itself)....this should do the job quite well, and i assume that it won't affect the charging behaviour in a bad way.
still worse than using protected cells, but most of the 18650 i have are unprotected ones from notebook packs.


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## doc_felixander (Feb 26, 2007)

sorry, double post. 
stinkin' server......


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## BBL (Feb 26, 2007)

afaik, protected cell shut off at 4.3V - just before it gets dangerous but late enough to harm the cell.


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## x2x3x2 (Feb 26, 2007)

The Ultrafire has a charging voltage of around 4.2v. (as stated on the sticker)

If this is a problem, would this mean that the good old DSD with charging voltage of 5.5V (as stated on the sticker) be an even bigger problem?

Or is the problem here actually is the batteries being used? AW or UltraFire brand are being use for these findings?

If Li-Ion 3.7 cells really cant stop charging themselves and just continue, would the 5.5V of the DSD charger has toasted a whole load of batts by now?


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## BBL (Feb 27, 2007)

The DSD charger has an input voltage of 5.5V, that has nothing to do with what the cells get... 
The charging cut off voltate of the dsd is 4.15V.


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## x2x3x2 (Feb 27, 2007)

wops my bad so sorry


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## Billson (Mar 1, 2007)

I just verified that the Ultrafire continues to trickle charge after the light turns green. My R123 was 4.15 when the light turned green so I left it in there for another 4-5 hours after which the voltage was up to 4.20v.

The DSD cuts off without trickle charging but the ending voltage is too low for me. My cells always come off the charger at 4.08v.


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## VidPro (Mar 1, 2007)

Via the most inteligent advice of Silverfox, I am including a Disclaimer.
Follow the SPECS of the manufactures data sheets to the letter, dont buy cheap junk batteries with poor protections , dont FAST charge or HEAT up a li-ion battery when charging. I am NOT an expert, so you really should not try this at home.


i charge to 4.35V on purpose, havent ruined anything yet.
in a few years and more hundreds of cycles, i will tell you if its a problem.

i never do it fast, that last bit is always sneaked up on, not pounded into the cell.

the D cells from saft want to go only to 4.1V, i dont mess with them going over, but the rest of the stuff i will take to the "edge" and see if it fails sooner.

if the stuff is in series, and being charged in seires, it sure would not be smart without balance.


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## mdocod (Mar 1, 2007)

I routinely test voltage going on a and off my chargers.. (both my vanson box for NIMH, the DSD and now the ultrafire for li-ion)... I've always gotten between 4.15 and 4.25 fresh off the charger(DSD and ultrafire) (2 different multimeter's have been used to check accuracy sometimes) I don't leave Li-Ions "in the green" on that charger.... I usually only charge large cells overnight, so I know they will not sit in the green too long before I get to them the next day- but 99% of the time I am sitting right next to the charger as it charges, so I just take the cells off when they are done- and If I develop ANY suspicions about the charge time, I pull the cells and check the voltage. 

I haven't had any problems yet with this method.


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## mdocod (Mar 1, 2007)

funny... right after posting that I just pulled some 18650s off the charger after it went green and they read only 4.01V...

tried putting them on again- red for a little while, then green....

this is really weird, cuz I just ran 2 other set of cells through, they all came off 4.18-4.22V.....

wonder if it's the charger or the cells at this point.


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## Tronic (Mar 1, 2007)

mdocod said:


> funny... right after posting that I just pulled some 18650s off the charger after it went green and they read only 4.01V...
> 
> tried putting them on again- red for a little while, then green....
> 
> ...


Do you have the version with solder on the + contacts?

If yes, check if there are any oxidation or rest of solder paste.
Clean the positive and negative contacts of the charger (with DeoxIT or similar) and check the ending voltage again.
Its possible that the charger terminate the charge too soon if there is a bad contact.

-Daniel


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## VidPro (Mar 1, 2007)

Tronic said:


> Its possible that the charger terminate the charge too soon if there is a bad contact.
> 
> -Daniel



i thought most of this LI-ION stuff doesnt terminate or stop when the light turns green, that the green light just indicates mostly charged or around 4.1-4.2 and that the voltage max is what actually stops the charging.
so the green light indicates, charged good enough to use, but left on for longer, it will be at a max charge.
AKA voltage regulated, current limited.
???


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## SilverFox (Mar 1, 2007)

Hello VidPro,



VidPro said:


> _
> i charge to 4.35V on purpose, havent ruined anything yet.
> in a few years and more hundreds of cycles, i will tell you if its a problem._



Perhaps you could provide some details on what you are doing…

Li-Ion cells are considered dead when their discharge capacity drops below 80% of their initial capacity.

When you charge over 4.2 volts, you end up with more capacity, but take a hit in cycle life. You are also getting closer to the thermal runaway point for Li-Ion chemistry. Safety concerns and cycle life drive the 4.2 volt limit for charging. You may be able to get away with it using single cells, but you can quickly run into problems with a pack. Your tolerance of cell to cell variation is greatly reduced when you charge to higher levels.

If you start with 2000 mAh cells, you should be seeing roughly 90% of the labeled capacity during a 1 amp discharge. This means that your 2000 mAh cell would have around 1800 mAh capacity. This becomes your baseline for comparison. If you haven’t done a baseline test, you can go off of the labeled capacity.

Now, when you are charging to 4.35 volts, what capacity are you observing? Also, what is the open circuit resting voltage of your cells at the completion of the charge?

If your open circuit resting cell voltage ends up at 4.3 volts, initially, you should see roughly an 18% increase in capacity over charging to 4.2 volts, so, once again using the 2000 mAh cell as an example, you should be seeing around 2124 mAh capacity. This capacity will rapidly degrade depending on how much time is spent at 4.35 volts. I saw about a 3% loss in 20 cycles immediately discharging the cells as soon as they were charged. If you charge them, then let them sit for a day or so, your losses will be higher.

In my example with the 2000 mAh cells, they would be considered dead when their capacity dropped to 1440 mAh.

What numbers are you seeing?

The RC people have done a lot of testing on this. They have finally settled on 4.15 volts as an end point. They are finding that their packs are capable of several hundred cycles using the lower voltage as an end point for the charge. When they charged to 4.2 volts, or slightly over, they were seeing under a hundred cycles.

Tom


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## VidPro (Mar 1, 2007)

Via the most inteligent advice of Silverfox, I am including a Disclaimer.
Follow the SPECS of the manufactures data sheets to the letter, dont buy cheap junk batteries with poor protections , dont FAST charge or HEAT up a li-ion battery when charging. I am NOT an expert, so you really should not try this at home.



hi Silverfox, you know i dont get that complicated 

the PDA has 2 extra li-poly (type) batteries on it, and it gets charged to a MAX 4.35 , it runs Approximatly 15 hours after a full charge, and some program tells me the time, cause i aint gonna time it with a timer or nothin.
it gets charged to that MAX about every 4 days, and discharged to below that within THAT day, or in a max of 2 days.
i will know it sucks to do this, if the thing quits working for the ~15 hours, and i have to replace the batterys, which cost about 30$ total.

The flashlight with 4X 14500 li-ions (AA) size, gets charged via protection cutoff, with a source that is going really slow in current , when it reaches the ~4.35 cutoff. it gets charged whenever, like once every 2 weeks on average, and discharged sometime during them 2 weeks on average.
It always works whenever i use it and for as long as i need it, never failed ever, but it doesnt get used as often, but for 2 hours or more when it does.
i will know that was a dumb idea, when i grab it and it doesnt work, or am out walking and it gets low before i am done walking.
this is like one of them stick it on the charger and leave it things, the idea was that any consumer could use it in any way (leave it on the charger, drain it to protection end) and it would just blindly work for them.

The small AA flashlight uses 1 14500 type cell, and it gets charged with a Bench type power supply , that isnt perfectally accurate. it gets recharged on a average of once in 3 weeks, and when finished it RESTS at very close to the 4.35, i dont know how long it stays there. that is my pocket light, and it never runs out of power either. it is used intermittantally and often, but not for long times usuually, so it would not be High for more than a day.
I will know that doesnt work, quick, there is not a lot of juice in there and it runs at about 3W, if it starts requiring a top off more often , than its really easy to replace and cheap.

The camera batteries are different, the "Pack" is topped off and sits at ~8.48 (4.24 x2), they are 2 cell packs, and they die after about 3 years, they stay topped off ALWAYS, and are discharged on some days, then recharged right back up again. they die more often from IMbalance, when i dissasemble them one battery is higher than the other, or battereis in them have anode disconnected , and they show 0V (of course) because the were overvoltaged due to imbalance.
these things work to at least 80% everytime untill they die of this stupid imbalance. we know they arent working when the camera cant stay powered by them, or they act funkey on the Camera charger.

I have some old PDA battereis from a PDA that i increased the total capacity internally in, and stuff i bought (on ebay) that did not have the stated capacity. i keep those topped off to 4.35v they get charged at most every 2 months, and just SIT there charged, for no good reason, sometimes i might use them to test a light a laser or a curcuit, but mostly they just park fully max charged.
1 of these is BAD, it self discharges faster than the others, and has limited capacity now, the others work for what i need every time. i could test these as they have been stuck high the longest of any, about 2 years.

the headlamp uses doubble protection cutoff, the battery has protection, and is charged with solar with protection, OR with the bench supply, the cutoffs are high, with an end of 4.35v, and as you know you can sneak up on this cutoff really slow , and get a RESTING that is very close to that max.
the headlamp stays charged, gets used some , gets recharged, really sporatic, its originally a 1400ma batt, that has an actual 1300ma capacity when tested.
i will know that didnt work when it goes dim to quickly. it still works great.

There are over 120 18650s on the solar change bank, they cutoff at 4.35V and its a very slow long operation to ever get them to that max, and it would only ever stay at that max for 6-8 hours (suns out) Within the pack, some batteries will be slightly different voltages, like off by as much as .05 from others, just due to wiring and stuff.
that does not GET full very often, the OLD batteries that were in it at its inception, 50% of them had high self discharge, after 3 years of total battery life, about 2 years In that pack. the capacity of the high self discharge ones was like 50% 1000-1300ma , that just pour out of them.
the old ones were from discarded computer packs, and there is still 40-50 of them in that pack working ok (unknown capacity), any bad ones were replaced with other cheap china 2000ma cells.

the 3 Car Dorcys, have 18650s in them, these are "emergency" lights, they get charged by one of these cheeap 18650 chargers, that cuts off at ~4.35v and the batts will rest at about 4.32 or so after, (or with the power supply) . these Stay totally topped off, are using LG 2400 cells. they just sit in the car endleessly. only one of them, that had an older cell (i think cheap cell) started self discharging, that one i cant figure out. the rest of them work everytime i turn them on. 
i will know that didnt work when they wont run for 10+ hours at a time.

there is the $800 sony batterys in 14.4 packs, they are amasing, they stay topped off and refreshed continually, will run my big cam for 14+ hours with the lcd, and wireless reciever, and all that junk. they are 3 years old, purchaced USED, but replaced by sony 3 years ago. they must , have totally proper charge curcuitry (balanced). they can sit parkeed for 3-6 months, and still act like they were just charged.
i will know they dont work when i go in the HOLE by thousands 

the Dcell li-ions i have, 1 of the cheap china versions of them SUCKS, its self discharging already, all the Saft are still perfect, just one of them china things is a problem. i still use both china ones, and the saft runs for so rediculously long that the other 2 safts dont get used much. i put them other 2 in the RGB light. 

then there is the . .. other stuff, rotting away unused, i keep charged max, but have not ever applied them in anything to know anything about them doing the job i would want.

i forgot to mention, that whenever possible i use a special 50% pulse charging routine that was listed at some EDU site and posted here. it alleged that this particular type of pulse charging would keep the capacity 10% higher after many cycles.

kinda weird to do pulse charging to save cycles, while damaging them with high top-offs  but i want ALL the CAPACITY i can get, for 2-3 years or so.


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## SilverFox (Mar 1, 2007)

Hello VidPro,

It would be interesting if you could take your headlamp battery and another one that you know the initial capacity of through testing, and test them to see how they are doing.

We a Li-Ion cell is considered "dead," it doesn't just stop working. It will still have some capacity, but the voltage under load will drop, it will have reduced capacity, and it can develop higher self discharge rates. High self discharge rates indicate micro shorts developing within the cell. When these become more frequent, the cell can short out. Often with explosive results.

It is interesting that charging to a higher voltage can sometimes clear out some of the micro shorts, but the effect is usually temporary.

Tom


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## VidPro (Mar 1, 2007)

Well what i should do is send you some of them, cause my testing methods, are either USE, or a bulb or led or something that pulls a 1Amp draw, and is timed. its about as scientific as saying "Hey my light doesnt work for long enough"  which is all i really care about anyways 

li-ion is being used here more often where self discharge would be bad, lots of stuff just sits waiting to BE used, and its expected to work if its grabbed. the ni-mhy and them Huge D li-ions are being used most regularly of all (daily).

i could send you 4 particular victoms of , TIME, parked with high charge, and Cheap junk. you could test them, blow them up, or just stare at them while you root through the other 5000 batterys you test monthly


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## SilverFox (Mar 1, 2007)

Hello VidPro,

PM sent.

Tom


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## VidPro (Mar 1, 2007)

I added a disclaimer to my posts that indicate going outside of the battery manufactures specifications isnt proper.
it is important to note, that i dont FAST charge or HEAT, or BLAST, or use high currents. 
i have various protections to keep flying flaming batteries from burning things down, and dont charge li-ions or cook bacon on the stove when i am not close by. there are sprinkelers in this home, and chained together smoke alarms, and fire extinguishers easy to grab and use.
i have not YET had a li-ion incident, that i have not purposfully caused in controlled situations, although i did start a fire when i blew up some ni-mhys, from to fast of charge.


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## SilverFox (Mar 1, 2007)

Hello VidPro,

Thanks.  

Tom


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## luminari (Mar 1, 2007)

SilverFox said:


> High self discharge rates indicate micro shorts developing within the cell. When these become more frequent, the cell can short out. Often with explosive results.



Wow, Tom, thanks for posting this information. In the back of my mind, I knew it was the case, but it suddenly reminded me of a battery pack that sits in one of my older laptops; It seriously self-discharges at a rapid rate (loses maybe 100% of charge, as measured by the laptop in Windows/Linux, in a week). It goes so low that the clock on the laptop gets reset.

Anyways, just wanted to say "thanks". You may have prevented a mushroom cloud on my computer.:goodjob:


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## jsr (Mar 1, 2007)

My cheapy DSD and Nano chargers charge my cells to 4V-4.04V right when the green light comes on. If I leave the cell(s) on the charger, it goes up to 4.12V-4.15V, but never higher, regardless of how long I have it on (I've left it on for close to 24hrs). I don't mind not getting to 4.2V exactly, and don't even mind pulling it off the charger when it only reads 4V. I haven't had a problem with runtime and I have enough cells that when one's out, I have another to immediately throw in. And I figure I'm gonna get really good life out of my Li-Ions.


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## luminari (Mar 1, 2007)

yeah the DSD seems to be very highly regarded on CPF... Not bad for $4-6


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## europium (Mar 2, 2007)

luminari said:


> yeah the DSD seems to be very highly regarded on CPF... Not bad for $4-6


Highly regarded, but not fast. 

It takes approximately 6 1/2 hours to fully charge a single nearly-depleted 18650 with 2200mAh capacity.

How long does the Pila charger take to charge a nearly-depleted 600P 18650 cell? Anybody?


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## SilverFox (Mar 2, 2007)

Hello Europium,

The Pila IBC charges at 600 mA.

Tom


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## matrixshaman (Mar 2, 2007)

Where's a good place to get the Pila chargers? I thought the DSD chargers had some issues I read about here a while ago. Forget what it was but when I heard DSD I thought it was one to be avoided.


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## Paul_in_Maryland (Mar 2, 2007)

matrixshaman said:


> Where's a good place to get the Pila chargers?


I just received mine from BugOutGear USA. Others have been happy buying this and anything else from JSBurly's. And this store takes PayPal.


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## mudman cj (Mar 2, 2007)

europium said:


> Highly regarded, but not fast.
> 
> It takes approximately 6 1/2 hours to fully charge a single nearly-depleted 18650 with 2200mAh capacity.
> 
> How long does the Pila charger take to charge a nearly-depleted 600P 18650 cell? Anybody?



The DSD can be sped up with a Nokia phone power supply that delivers 800mA - nearly double the charging rate, but don't use the higher current power supply for cells under 1200mAh.


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## europium (Mar 2, 2007)

mudman cj said:


> The DSD can be sped up with a Nokia phone power supply that delivers 800mA - nearly double the charging rate, but don't use the higher current power supply for cells under 1200mAh.


Do you have experience with this speedup using the Nokia PS? Because it takes over 6 hours to charge a nearly-depleted cell _*no matter which*_ power supply I use. I have the DSD power supply rated at 450ma: using it, charging a depleted 18650 single cell takes over 6 hours. I also have the 800ma rated Nokia power supply: using it instead of the other, charging a single 18650 *STILL *takes 6+ hours. Is there some trick to getting the DSD to charge faster with the Nokia PS?  



SilverFox said:


> Hello Europium,
> 
> The Pila IBC charges at 600 mA.
> 
> Tom


 Yes, I understand. Still, with my experience as described above, I have to ask: How long does the Pila IBC take to fully charge a nearly-depleted 18650 with 2200mAh capacity? Are there not differences in charging algorithms between the DSD and the Pila? As I understand it from other threads on CPF, the DSD charger does not do CV after CC, but the Pila does do a CV. So, theoretically, it might well take as long for the Pila LED light to turn green as it takes the DSD light to turn green. Whether or not the total charging time for the Pila charger is the same as the DSD, the Pila will in any case charge the Li-Ion cell much closer to its full capacity.

I am exasperated with the very long charging times I experience with my protected 18650 cells. I cannot continually babysit them while in the charger for six hours in a row. I'm considering switching my lights from 18650/2xCR123 to AA NiMH because I consider the charging time to be unacceptably long. The only two 'fast' chargers of Li-Ion cells seem to be the Schulze and the Triton, both of which are made for professionals and priced accordingly.

When charging a depleted 18650, how long do you owners of the newer Pila charger have to wait for a green LED?


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## ProofTech (Mar 2, 2007)

I think the Wolf Eyes charger (model CH-02) is supposed to fully charge one or two 18650s in three hours. Its rated current per cell is 0.3-1.5 amps. I have the WE charger, but I only have 18500 cells, so I can’t test this myself.

ProofTech


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## Mike abcd (Mar 2, 2007)

There are lots of really good dedicated chargers for LiOn/LiPo in the r/c world with selectable charge currents and capable of charging multiple cells independantly that are a LOT cheaper than the Schulze and Triton but not nearly as cheap as the DSD and Ultrafire. Most of them require an extenal power supply but an old PC power supply 12 V output works fine after jumpering the power on signal. New ones keep showing up and the battery/charger forum at rcgroups.com is a great source for the latest info. I haven't kept up but there were multiple alternatives around $50 last time I checked.

My DSD under charged by a lot and I'd NEVER use a LiOn charger that charges above 4.20 V.

I opened my DSD with an exacto knife and turned it into a dumb charging cradle that I use with my r/c LiPo charger. I only charge one cell at a time because of the large initial currents that can flow when connecting multiple cells in parallel at different charge states but some folks here don't seem to think that's an issue.

Mike


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## rkonieska (Mar 3, 2007)

Hey VIDPRO where did you get your SAFT D's, I checked with a dealer in Minn.

and he said they are $47 per cell with a "new" $25 Hazmat charge plus
shipping?

:sweat: rkonieska


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## protein_man (Mar 3, 2007)

My ultrafire charger for 14500 and 10440 overchargers. I checked on the cell in the and it was upto 4.3 V measured on 2 different meters! I just tried a cell in the dsd and they came off at 4.1V.


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## VidPro (Mar 3, 2007)

rkonieska said:


> Hey VIDPRO where did you get your SAFT D's, I checked with a dealer in Minn.
> 
> and he said they are $47 per cell with a "new" $25 Hazmat charge plus
> shipping?
> ...



i got them from a saft battery dealer, and , they wouldnt sell them to "consumers" for good reason, the particular ones i purchaced are not protected in any way. since then they made up some protected ones.
i had to fill out some intent of use (type) sheet.
i paid about 50$ EACH for them.

hazmat charge ??? never heard of it. and i am in california.


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## rkonieska (Mar 3, 2007)

I think the Hazmat charge is something new and they can't be shipped via
air.....blah.....blah......darn.....thanx

 rkonieska


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## mudman cj (Mar 4, 2007)

europium said:


> Do you have experience with this speedup using the Nokia PS? Because it takes over 6 hours to charge a nearly-depleted cell _*no matter which*_ power supply I use. I have the DSD power supply rated at 450ma: using it, charging a depleted 18650 single cell takes over 6 hours. I also have the 800ma rated Nokia power supply: using it instead of the other, charging a single 18650 *STILL *takes 6+ hours. Is there some trick to getting the DSD to charge faster with the Nokia PS?



Well, you caught me. I have been passing along this info without having performed careful testing. Even though I have been using the higher current PS (LG 5.2V, 800mA), I have not timed cell charging. I have noticed that the higher current PS causes charging to terminate at a lower voltage with only one cell, but two in parallel allows full charging. So, I rarely ever charged just one cell with the higher current PS since I found that I was just switching back to the DSD anyway for a full charge.

Well, I have started some testing now, and while I don't yet have the charging times to report, I thought this result was worth sharing. One of the newest 1185-capable AW 18650 protected cells was depleted and rested to give an open circuit voltage of 3.31. Then I started charging with the high current PS. One hour into charging I realized that I could measure the current passing through the cell during charging, and that is when I measured these charging currents on that same cell using the two different power supplies:

LG 5.2V 800mA: 0.85 Amps
DSD 5.5V 350mA: 0.27 Amps

So, clearly the higher current PS is charging the same cell at a higher current.

Edit: The above cell charged to a lower voltage than I get using the DSD PS (as expected): 15 min rested open circuit reading of 4.10 Volts in about 2 hours. With that voltage it should be at around 90% capacity, which helps explain why it only took 2 hours.

2nd Edit: I charged two 18650s in parallel on the DSD using the higher current PS. Starting open circuit voltages were 3.46 and 3.48 (very well rested). These cells charged to 4.18 and 4.19 Volts in about 4 hours.

I wish I could offer a suggestion as to why you experience such long charging times. Maybe silverfox has an idea..


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## VidPro (Mar 5, 2007)

rkonieska said:


> I think the Hazmat charge is something new and they can't be shipped via
> air.....blah.....blah......darn.....thanx
> 
> rkonieska



the last time i read the shipping regulations on this stuff, its based on Weight, meaning how much Lithium metal PER shipment?
so a smaller order might get less attention, problems.


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## jsr (Mar 9, 2007)

Is this the Ultrafire WF-139 charger that AW sells that this threads about? Or is it another UF charger?


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## doc_felixander (Mar 9, 2007)

Yes, that's the one.

btw, I noticed that my AC input doesn't work. 
When no battery is inserted, both LEDs are green. When I drop in a battery, both LEDs start to flicker/blink green (not depending on size, capacity or the discharge state of the battery). The flicker is synchronous, despite the independent channels.
With a 12V adapter, everything's "normal"....

Anyone else ?


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## radar696 (Dec 3, 2008)

I know this is an old thread but I just had to reply after reading thorough to the end.

If someone can't afford to spend the extra money for the Pila charger and already has the WF-139 from AW wouldn't an easy fix be to just use a timer?

I mean you can get a 120v timer from any drug store for about $6.00 now so if you are worried about over charging or if you run the chance of just not remembering or being able to remove the cells at the proper time just set the timer.

It would seem that setting for 6 or 7 hours should be sufficient. If not you can just test the cells and place them back in the charger for another cycle.

It sure seems like the safe way to go.


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## Bonky (Dec 4, 2008)

I throw a DMM on WHILE the batts are charging on my crappy 2 Ultrafire chargers.

When the DMM reads 4.2 or a little less, I pull 'em off.

It's a pain getting the DMM leads to stay put between the battery terminals and the charging points though.

Sad, man, sad.


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## 325addict (Feb 9, 2009)

When I read more and more about these chargers.... I'm more and more at the point of designing one myself (again!)

You start with an L200 IC from ST (SGS-Thomson).

In this, a constant-voltage AND a current limiter-part is integrated. This means: it's a regulated power supply IC with variable I max.

Then top it off with a low voltage / reverse polarity system (simple to build with a transistor, some resistors and a relay).

For your safety, build in a "safety catch" for the situation, that, for whatever reason, the cell voltage comes over 4,25V per cell. In this situation, the output relay is switched off. Control of this is by means of a reference voltage-source (LM385Z-2,5) and an opamp.

Set the switch-off point in such a way, that it switches off when current has dropped to less than 3% of the capacity. An Opamp in combination with a S/R Flipflop (HEF4027) does the job 

A simple "START" buttons sets the Flipflop, the opamp resets it. On my PCB, you could simply change operation from "hand-start" with the button (in which a LED lit up stronger during charging) to "automatic" upon powering the charger. Just use the other position of the jumper....

I did this for one of our customers, who had to charge a huge pack (14,4V / 190Wh) in LESS than the 8 hours or so, the standard charger needed. Mine did it in less than 4 hours, customer totally satisfied.
(However, the L200 IC proved worthless in this design. I needed a current in excess of 4 Amps, the L200 does no more than 2 Amps....) I had to design a "semi-discrete" power supply, and for safety's sake I used the virtually indestructible 200W Sanken power transistors.

I set the voltage at 4,100V per cell, as this only means 7....10% loss in capacity, but hugely benefits to the number of cycles you get from the battery. You may guess, a 190Wh Li-ion battery costs serious money.... you want them to last as long as possible of course!


Timmo.


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## cy (Feb 9, 2009)

it's an old thread... but certainly well worth reading! 

hobby grade chargers typically will have built in charge timer and total milliamp charged shut off trigger. 

this in addition to what ever charge algorithms for each chemistry. 

a LOT of changes has happened since this old thread... new safer chemistries, protected cell becoming common, etc. but has loose li-ion cells has truly reached the masses? 



radar696 said:


> I know this is an old thread but I just had to reply after reading thorough to the end.
> 
> If someone can't afford to spend the extra money for the Pila charger and already has the WF-139 from AW wouldn't an easy fix be to just use a timer?
> 
> ...


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## dudu84 (Jun 13, 2009)

cy said:


> it's an old thread... but certainly well worth reading!
> 
> hobby grade chargers typically will have built in charge timer and total milliamp charged shut off trigger.
> 
> ...



How does a timer work if the cell is recharged before it's emptied? :thinking:


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## Bonky (Jun 13, 2009)

dudu84 said:


> How does a timer work if the cell is recharged before it's emptied? :thinking:



Not well


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## e90 (Dec 18, 2009)

My Wf-130 meassured at the charging terminals shows 4.9 - 5.0 volts.Is it normal?
I use 3Ah protected ultafire batteries, and when fully charged they are 4.2V.Also when i put two batteries at the same time ,and nearly in the same charging condition, one of the slots charges 1-2 hours faster than the other.:mecry:


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## cy (Dec 22, 2009)

timer's function is to serve as an overall safety. although it could be used to meter charge. 

for instance if normal charge cycle take approx. 3 hours to complete. set your timer at 5 hours... the idea is not to hit time exactly to charge but to provide a safety for charger to shut down if total time has elapsed. 

more than likely if charger has a timer function, then it's a hobby grade charger with a proper termination at end of charge feature. 



dudu84 said:


> How does a timer work if the cell is recharged before it's emptied? :thinking:


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## Billy Ram (Dec 22, 2009)

I have 4ea. aw18650 2600mha protected cells that I charge in my WF-139. When the light turns green all of them have 4.19v. when plucked from the charger. I believe the protection circuit in these batterys may be terminating the charge. When I charge my IMR26500s in this charger and leave them till the light turns green they will have 4.21-4.22v. I try to monitor at the end of the charge with my volt meter and pull them when I read arround 4.25v. in the charger. This way they have 4.19-4.20v. right out of the charger. I don't plan on using this charger any more to charge unprotected cells exept as a back up.
Billy


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## SAVAGESAM (Mar 6, 2010)

I know this is an ancient thread, but I just bought a new flashlight (surefire G3LED) and put my AW17500's on my ultrafire 139 and both sets blinks red/green but only for ten minutes then went solid green. I took them off right away. But the batteries had been sitting for six months????. I need to let them rest overnight correct? I don't want to burn up my new LED toy. Any advice would be much appreciated. Thanks in advance.


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## Font size (Mar 29, 2010)

*Re: Ultrafire charger damage?*

*[FONT=&quot]


mdocod said:



As for when and how much cell "wear-and-tear" occurs during CC-only charging.

Click to expand...

I hear a lot about the different ways of charging affecting the useful lifespan of a cell. What is it?

Does the lifespan go from 600 cycles down to 450 cycles? *[/FONT]

 *[FONT=&quot]I can lose a flashlight before I recharge it 450 times. It would take forever alternating two cells per light. Just what is the increased cost of a different algorithm?


KiwiMark said:



How much damage would their be to a Li-ion cell if its voltage is allowed to exceed 4.2V while charging?

Click to expand...

Anybody have an answer for Mark?*[/FONT]

 *[FONT=&quot]How much damage?*[/FONT]


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## SilverFox (Mar 30, 2010)

*Re: Ultrafire charger damage?*

Hello Font size,

Unfortunately there are no hard answers to those questions.

Some cells will die the first time they exceed 4.2 volts. Other cells may only loose around 0.2% of their capacity with each overcharge. However, this rate is not linear and the degradation seems to increase the more often the cell is abused.

If you feel lucky, and end up with a good performing cell, you may not notice any difference at all. If you are unlucky, you could have the cell die the first time it is overcharged. Most people experience something in between those two extremes.

We do know that if you follow the rules and limit the charge to 4.2 volts it is possible to get around 500 charge/discharge cycles from a cell. We also know that there is a very high probability that when following the rules there will be no rapid venting with flame incident during charging. When you step outside the rules the probability of excitement increases.

The best value is to find a charger that follows the rules, and then find the best price on that charger.

Tom


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## SAVAGESAM (Mar 30, 2010)

*Re: Ultrafire charger damage?*



SilverFox said:


> Hello Font size,
> 
> Unfortunately there are no hard answers to those questions.
> 
> ...


 
Sounds like great advice to me Tom. I take it from what I've read that the ultra-fire charger is NOT a rules follower? Please give me your opinion on a good value charger. T.I.A.


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## SilverFox (Mar 30, 2010)

*Re: Ultrafire charger damage?*

Hello Savagesam,

I use my Schulze charger for charging Li-ion cells most of the time. I also use a Pila IBC charger when I am traveling. 

Tom


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## SAVAGESAM (Mar 30, 2010)

*Re: Ultrafire charger damage?*



SilverFox said:


> Hello Savagesam,
> 
> I use my Schulze charger for charging Li-ion cells most of the time. I also use a Pila IBC charger when I am traveling.
> 
> Tom


 
Schulze, Thanks Tom.


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## Font size (Mar 30, 2010)

*Rules, what rules?*




SilverFox said:


> Find a charger that follows the rules, and then find the best price ..


Find a charger that follows the rules.


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## klorsey (Jul 3, 2010)

Thanks a lot Paul in Maryland,I've been looking for a week for a seller of a Pila IBC Charger who would ship to Australia without rip-off shipping prices.

Your suggestion ofjsburlysflashlights.com with a shipping price of US$10.00 is a godsend.

Thank You!


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## pae77 (Jul 4, 2010)

Deleted, sorry.


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