# Best light for under 1000.00?



## windstrings (Sep 24, 2006)

I am considering the X990... it appears that most of the reviews I have seen reflect the McColluch model which has been ungraded as far as water resistant and some things with the ballast.

The X990 seems to be the best bang for the buck for under 400.00, but I would consider going more if it was worth it.
The X990 has a great spill as well as distance, but I would be willing to give up some spill for a tighter beam for throw... especially if it is focusable.
I think all things considered, the X900 has pleaty of worklight spill for its wide setting and therefore should have a tighter spot setting for throw.

I appreciate the volume of light emitted by the X990 and I am wondering if there is another I should consider.
I prefer Lithium, but NiMh is ok too... I want to avoid Lead acid batteries.

I want to be able to carry it in my hands without it being too awkward.

Some of the lights out now perform well, but still seem to have ballast issues and often it takes several attempts to turn on.. I want to avoid that also.

It seems the 50W lights perform a tiny bit better, but shamefully eat up battery power for the little power illumination they give.

Does anyone have any recommendations I should consider?
I would appreciate any and all now that you have an idea of what I'm looking for.


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## blahblahblah (Sep 24, 2006)

http://candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?p=1609431

This might fit the bill.


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## frogs3 (Sep 24, 2006)

Dear Windstrings,

I have experience with the X990 for over a year now, and so far as the light output is concerned, it has lived up to the comparisons on this Forum in other threads. I strongly suggest that you check out the beamshots and comments by people with much more comparative knowledge before deciding based only on cost. In my suburban area, I have only been stopped once by a police officer, who was polite, but wondered why anyone needed such a bright light. That having been said, I am waiting for a "pre-owned" 75 watt Barn Burner to arrive, also below your threshold of $1000, which hopefully will not cause mayhem with the local police and neighbors.

As for drawbacks, the NiMH batteries leak their charge at a fairly annoying rate, after a year of use. I need to keep recharging nearly every other day to try to approach the 60 to 70 minute run time which they could deliver when new. The LiIon technology is superior in this respect, and it is available with other units as noted in this thread above.

My X990 is not suitable for even moist environments, and I do not know if the new ones are significantly different.

Aside from these issues, the light works perfectly, and functions both for my nighttime walks as well as utility work around the house. It weighs about 6lbs., which is not troublesome for me to carry when I am walking about the neighborhood. Lighter would, of course, be better.

For the higher price of the Australian unit you get a handle, which I would find valuable, and a longer run time, plus the bonus of a 50 watt overdrive if you should need more light. If you search the pre-owned Forum on this website, you may just find a better featured light at the price you want.

In summary, at its price point, the X990 is a very good performer. As always, more $$ allows newer features, more power, runtime, etc, with virtually no upper limit. You alone must decide where the cutoff should be. This stuff is addictive -- it is my duty to forewarn you.

Happy Hunting,

Harvey K.


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## windstrings (Sep 24, 2006)

frogs3 said:


> As for drawbacks, the NiMH batteries leak their charge at a fairly annoying rate, after a year of use. I need to keep recharging nearly every other day to try to approach the 60 to 70 minute run time which they could deliver when new. The LiIon technology is superior in this respect, and it is available with other units as noted in this thread above.
> 
> My X990 is not suitable for even moist environments, and I do not know if the new ones are significantly different.



yea.. I know about the addictive part.... 
The new one is supposed to be "water resistant" with no claims to be able to go underwater. http://www.magnalight.com/p-97-acro-990x-3200-lumen-hid-rechargeable-flashlight-click-to-buy.aspx

The only other light I'm scratching my head about is another 500.00 bucks..
http://www.xevision.com/

This light has longer run times.. even if you opt for the 50W version, waterproof, nicer case, comes with a DC Charger, less recharge time... etc etc... lots of nice options. Lithium Battery... "great shelf life!"
Is slightly lighter, more compact. More sophisticated battery checker, possibly a better ballast, Tighter focus "1 - 15 degrees" compared to the X990 which IMO is a bit too wide, but great if your trying to play baseball at night!!!
.. all in all the Xevision a very well built product.... But so is the x990 "for the money"

But is it over twice the light?.... Humm.. thats a hard one.. prob not.
One of these batteries would last as long as two of the X990's.


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## windstrings (Sep 24, 2006)

blahblahblah said:


> http://candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?p=1609431
> 
> This might fit the bill.




Wow... can you spell "tank!".. that looks like a monster next to the other lights... It doesn't specify whether it is a V1 or V2.

the only thing bad I've read about the razors are that they are inconsistent... but if at thier worst thier still stinkin bright, I guess that doesn't matter much.

From what I've seen, the X990 beats this light?.. http://home.earthlink.net/~kenshiro2/hid2/35comp.html

Seems the Costco HID kicks butt and takes names for the money, but I fear its too cheaply made and a monster to carry anywhere.

Thanks for the suggestion.....


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## NAW (Sep 24, 2006)

windstrings said:


> From what I've seen, the X990 beats this light?.. http://home.earthlink.net/~kenshiro2/hid2/35comp.html


 
Well the X990 is a 35W light. The Rayzorbeam is a 35W light that can go up to 50W with one hit of a button. So the X990 will beat the Rayzorbeam at 35W But it won't beat it the Rayzor when it is set to 50W.

-Thats from my understanding  -

Also I think since the review the Rayzor people made some modifications to there lights.


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## LuxLuthor (Sep 24, 2006)

As I posted in that "sell" thread of the Razorbeam, the negative problems turning on the light, and the wide zoom beamshots on the Kenshiro's review which regarded V.2 Razorbeam as "more of a prototype," left me with significant negatives about this light. 

I have not see what has actually been corrected, or if this one for sale _(admittedly at an excellent price of $500)_ has the purported corrections. 

I have not seen any revised beamshots in the zoom mode to see if "the corrected" version is now a tighter and more intense beam. 

*You would think RazorBeam would want to promote whatever improvements have been made after Kenshiro's shootout spanked it into being a prototype version...but alas, there is no mention of any revisions on their site, or how you know a prospective model is a newer version.*


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## larryk (Sep 24, 2006)

NAW said:


> Well the X990 is a 35W light. The Rayzorbeam is a 35W light that can go up to 50W with one hit of a button. So the X990 will beat the Rayzorbeam at 35W But it won't beat it the Rayzor when it is set to 50W.
> 
> -Thats from my understanding  -
> 
> Also I think since the review the Rayzor people made some modifications to there lights.



I just received the RayzorLite on Sat. The X990 and the Armondotech 3152 easily outperforms the RayzorLite, even with the 50 watt boost on. Maybe there is something wrong with my RayzorLite.


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## windstrings (Sep 25, 2006)

LuxLuthor said:


> As I posted in that "sell" thread of the Razorbeam, the negative problems turning on the light, and the wide zoom beamshots on the Kenshiro's review which regarded V.2 Razorbeam as "more of a prototype," left me with significant negatives about this light.
> 
> I have not see what has actually been corrected, or if this one for sale _(admittedly at an excellent price of $500)_ has the purported corrections.
> 
> ...



I tend to agree with your hesitation and paranoia... I am always skeptical of someone that wants to sell a brand new product that should still be under warranty for a price lower than they paid for it?..
Unless its stolen or has a funky problem the manufacturer will not honor, it doesn't make much sense...

but nevertheless.. I think the final statement from the 50w comparison link you provided gives IMO a very fair assessment of what I have found also.


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## windstrings (Sep 25, 2006)

larryk said:


> I just received the RayzorLite on Sat. The X990 and the Armondotech 3152 easily outperforms the RayzorLite, even with the 50 watt boost on. Maybe there is something wrong with my RayzorLite.



Dang Larry.. I'm really sorry to hear that... is this the light that was on sale for 500 or is this a new one?...
At any rate, there should be a money back guarantee if you just bought it.

I do remember reading that the consistency of the outputs were erratic enough that the pictures presented in the shootouts could not be trusted because with one test they would be really bright and other times not..

I don't know if you have had similiar results, but I would definately see about a refund if you can swing it.

Unless you like the light enough to keep it anyway... I"m sure its a really nice light nevertheless.

I had a hard time figuring out how much they cost? http://www.rayzorbeam.com/rayzorproducts.html

BTW... which of the two lights do you like the best?.. I'm not crazy about a lead acid battery... but I am curious to hear which light you think has the best throw... the X990 or the Amondotech?


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## NAW (Sep 25, 2006)

larryk said:


> I just received the RayzorLite on Sat. The X990 and the Armondotech 3152 easily outperforms the RayzorLite, even with the 50 watt boost on. Maybe there is something wrong with my RayzorLite.


 
If the Rayzorlite isn't focused then it wont outhrow either of the lights because the light is all flooded out. Have you tried focusing the Rayzorlite? 

Wave Particle focused his Rayzorlite. Check out post reply #511 for deatails, and post #529 for beamshots.

http://flashlight-forums.com/index.php?topic=3238.0


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## larryk (Sep 25, 2006)

I bought the RayzorLite used here on CPF. It came from the group buy on FF. I also noticed that in some beamshot photos the RayzorLite didn't fare so well and other beamshot photos the RayzorLite looked just fine. I hoped that mine would have been one of the better ones. All in all it's a nicely designed light, looks good (to me), well balanced, and built like a tank. If this was your first HID light you would be very impressed. 
NAW, yes it was focused for the best throw. 
As far as the differences between the 3152 and X990, the X990 has a nicer beam with less artifacts, and the 3152 has a tighter hot spot with a little more throw. For the money the are both good picks. Here is a link that will show beamshots of both the X990 and 3152, and some other spotlights at about 150 yards.

http://homepage.mac.com/rouses/beams/PhotoAlbum349.html


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## NAW (Sep 25, 2006)

larryk said:


> NAW, yes it was focused for the best throw.


 
Maybe you do have a defective light then...maybe you should contact Rayzorbeam or Rhino90. 

Better to be safe dan sorry.


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## mtbkndad (Sep 25, 2006)

windstrings,

The regular Polarion is also in your price range. I have seen the Rayzorbeam, Rayzorlite, X990, and Polarion. I like the Polarion the most out of those choices. Of course I like the Helios enough more then the Polarion to be saving for one of those. 

Take Care,
mtbkndad :wave:


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## windstrings (Sep 26, 2006)

NAW said:


> So the X990 will beat the Rayzorbeam at 35W But it won't beat it the Rayzor when it is set to 50W.



I don't know how its built, but it sounds like they are hitting a 35watt bulb with intermittent 50watts, which in turn would kill its bulb life if done very often?


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## windstrings (Sep 26, 2006)

mtbkndad said:


> windstrings,
> 
> The regular Polarion is also in your price range. I have seen the Rayzorbeam, Rayzorlite, X990, and Polarion. I like the Polarion the most out of those choices. Of course I like the Helios enough more then the Polarion to be saving for one of those.
> 
> ...



I thought the Polarion was more?... http://www.polarion-store.com/pd_helios.cfm

Although it does have some flat out awesome features.. I question it would beat the 50watt Xevision? http://home.earthlink.net/~kenshiro2/

It does look like its close to par however.


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## TigerhawkT3 (Sep 26, 2006)

You could try a LarryK12 - those are pretty bright.


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## windstrings (Sep 26, 2006)

TigerhawkT3 said:


> You could try a LarryK12 - those are pretty bright.


Looking at lumen value alone "1200", they are less than 1/2 that of a X900... almost 1/3!

It seems it comes right down to when you take away all the fancy bells and whistles... its all about how many lumens and how is quality of the reflector with size being a major factor regardless of quality.

Theoretically, a perfect reflector could be tiny... just enough to catch the backsplash of the bulb to reflect it forward.. but since none of them are.. the bigger they are, the less demand on the reflector per sq centimeter because less electrons are bombarding each sq centimeter of reflector. Good reflectors have little heat left over because all the energy is reflected forward.

I see many cheaper versions "Costco HID" that do an awesome job.. but you will be walking around with a mini dish and far inferior quality than the more expensive... but for the money, they are a bargain.


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## TigerhawkT3 (Sep 26, 2006)

windstrings said:


> Looking at lumen value alone "1200", they are less than 1/2 that of a X900... almost 1/3!
> ...


No no, not twelve _hundred_ lumens - twelve _thousand_.


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## windstrings (Sep 27, 2006)

TigerhawkT3 said:


> No no, not twelve _hundred_ lumens - twelve _thousand_.



Whoa.. my apologies.... I must have had a brain fart.....
http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/printthread.php?t=111545

Thanks for correcting me.....

thats a wonderful example of American "thinking out of the box"... playing around like this is what brings around new thought and projects....

As soon as someone wants to put enough money to developing this little toy with bigger better batteries, cooling ability, and a higher quality case and features we may be well on the way to a "usable" 14K lumen light. Of course it will cost a bit more than 250.00 bucks!

Its also a good example that brighter is not always better... Unless your merely trying to make a rocket that shoots to the moon and then after 5 minutes your battery is dead. But its a major fun toy!... It reminds me of playing with a fully automatic weapon.... Blllllllll... and your out of ammo! and reloading.. but wow was it fun!...

Wow.. it would be cool to have a useable light this bright!

Technology always has to have a balance of power with real life useablity..... Until battery technology improves or we are willing to walk around with more weight, we are limited if we want a light that has enough runtime for practicle use.

I would sure like a 75 watt option with an extended battery. I hate to drop to 60 minutes of runtime. If I could toggle to lower wattages to maintain runtime.. that would be perfect....
But if that is not avaliable.. then its just a dream for now.


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## larryk (Sep 27, 2006)

The larryK14 was never intended to be a practical spotlight, just something I put together for fun. It will only give you about 8 minutes of runtime, after 6 months, the light still amazes me. It is hosted in a relatively small package that weighs just under 5 pounds. It's a blast to show non-flashoholics and flashoholics alike, there jaws just drop. Sometimes you need to get a little crazy.


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## windstrings (Sep 27, 2006)

larryk said:


> The larryK14 was never intended to be a practical spotlight, just something I put together for fun. It will only give you about 8 minutes of runtime, after 6 months, the light still amazes me. It is hosted in a relatively small package that weighs just under 5 pounds. It's a blast to show non-flashoholics and flashoholics alike, there jaws just drop. Sometimes you need to get a little crazy.



Well even in its present state.. I'm sure its fun enough to be sellable...
Have you thought about selling or would that take away the fun?

What type of batteries are you finding is the most practicle to use now?.. rechargables I assume?.. prob NiMh for tons of energy dissipation?


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## mtbkndad (Sep 27, 2006)

windstrings said:


> I thought the Polarion was more?... http://www.polarion-store.com/pd_helios.cfm
> 
> Although it does have some flat out awesome features.. I question it would beat the 50watt Xevision? http://home.earthlink.net/~kenshiro2/
> 
> It does look like its close to par however.



The Polarion Helios is $1595.
The Polarion model that preceded the Helios, the Polarion PXM-35P is $950. Follow the link below to the bottom of the page.

http://www.polarion-store.com/cat_polarion.cfm

Like the Heios the 
Polarion PXM-35P1 is waterproof and has numerous other features that the other HID's do not. It is also very compact compared to anything other then the Helios.

You can also follow this link to specs on the light. 
http://www.polarion-store.com/pd_polarion.cfm

Take Care,
mtbkndad :wave:


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## larryk (Sep 27, 2006)

No, I will not be selling it anytime soon. I'm using Tanic Taps Li-Polymer batteries commonly found in the r/c community. Ni-Mh batteries will also work, and be quite a bit cheaper too. You would need high quality cells like GP's to handle the very high current draw.


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## TigerhawkT3 (Sep 27, 2006)

windstrings said:


> ...
> Have you thought about selling or would that take away the fun?
> ...


When I have mine completely finished, I'd be happy to put one together for the purpose of selling to you.


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## LuxLuthor (Sep 27, 2006)

TigerhawkT3 said:


> When I have mine completely finished, I'd be happy to put one together for the purpose of selling to you.


I just sent an email to Andrew about the same thing. If there is any economy of scale/labor, add me to your list in case Andrew doesn't want to. Thanks! _ (I would try to make it, but I would surely burn down my house or something ominous!)_

:candle:


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## windstrings (Sep 27, 2006)

mtbkndad said:


> The Polarion Helios is $1595.
> The Polarion model that preceded the Helios, the Polarion PXM-35P is $950. Follow the link below to the bottom of the page.
> 
> http://www.polarion-store.com/cat_polarion.cfm
> ...



Hey.. thanks for the link.. I'll have to study whats the big deal that they went up 600.00 bucks other than a cool body style....


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## windstrings (Sep 27, 2006)

yea.. keep my name in mind... I don't know if I will want to buy "The Bazooka".. when the time comes.. but its possible....


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## DoubleDutch (Sep 27, 2006)

What about an Arc-P? You said best, not brightest...






Kees


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## TigerhawkT3 (Sep 27, 2006)

LuxLuthor and Windstrings, I'll keep you on my "list." I won't have anything fancy like a LiPo battery or flat-output driver board, but I'm pretty certain I can manage at least a few more of what I'm making for myself.

Pricewise... maybe $300, $350? Somewhere around there, I guess.


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## Lips (Sep 28, 2006)

Rayzors are set to 32 watts. Press boost button and they push the 35watt bulb to 50 watts. (Ballast is programable by manufacturer) 


On a ceiling bounce test I got less light from the RayzorLite vs the X990. When boosted to 50watts I got 28% higher reading on the RayzorLite...


Rayzors stock reflector is now Stippled which is floody. SMO reflectors and larger screw on RayzorHead with bigger reflectors are accessories in the works for Max Throw.


They are not the brightest spotlights out there but they are bright. They are very rugged and have excellent runtime...


I'm hopping for a 50watt version pushed to 75 watt with SMO and premium bulb. fingers crossed!


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## windstrings (Sep 28, 2006)

Thanks for those pics.. the 50watts does indeed appear 66% brighter than the 32 in those pictures.

I would really like a 50 watts that will boost to 75 also.. but in the Xevision light.... I have seen quite a few bad reviews on the razor and I don't trust it too much.

Sounds like you like yours?


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## windstrings (Sep 28, 2006)

mtbkndad said:


> The Polarion Helios is $1595.
> The Polarion model that preceded the Helios, the Polarion PXM-35P is $950. Follow the link below to the bottom of the page.
> 
> http://www.polarion-store.com/cat_polarion.cfm
> ...



I wonder if this was the light they were using in the test that keep on par with all the other 50 watt versions?

If so.. you would have great runtime with virtually the same performance as the 50Watt versions of the other brands?

In the pic here Kenshiros shootout page 2.. the picture sure looks like the older polarion... here

The older polarion really suffers on runtime.. only 100 min at 35 watts... the battery in the Xevision is superior.


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## LuxLuthor (Sep 28, 2006)

TigerhawkT3 said:


> LuxLuthor and Windstrings, I'll keep you on my "list." I won't have anything fancy like a LiPo battery or flat-output driver board, but I'm pretty certain I can manage at least a few more of what I'm making for myself.
> 
> Pricewise... maybe $300, $350? Somewhere around there, I guess.



I think I am gonna get a more fancy one from Andrew who did reply to my email....so thanks very much for your willing offer.


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## mtbkndad (Sep 28, 2006)

windstrings said:


> I wonder if this was the light they were using in the test that keep on par with all the other 50 watt versions?
> 
> If so.. you would have great runtime with virtually the same performance as the 50Watt versions of the other brands?
> 
> In the pic here Kenshiros shootout page 2.. the picture sure looks like the older polarion... here



Yes, that is the same model. What it may lack in overall light against some 50 watt versions, it makes up in it's small size, great overall beam quality and diffferent features. If you are not using binoculars, the Polarion will light farther then many people can effectively see at night and therefore(CPF heresy coming) is bright enough  without being overkill. 
  



Take Care,
mtbkndad :wave:


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## larryk (Sep 28, 2006)

Nothing wrong with overkill, I love overkill.


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## windstrings (Sep 29, 2006)

Well to be fair, I must say the Xevision and the polarion are both stunning products.

I'm mostly talking about the older polarion.. since the new one is 1595.00 it doesn't qualify for the question of this thread.

Its a hard choice.. the Xevision excells in battery power, and the ballast used in the Xevision is aircraft quality.
The Polarion is totally water proof.. although the Xevision spotlight claims with a touch of divers gel and possibly some silicon in a few strategic spots, it too is fully waterproof.. but most people don't need to dive with their light.. only be able to drop it in a mud puddle without fear it will blow up as the water touches the bulb.

If we could get a groupbuy going, it would make it much simpler to figure this out.. but until then... its a bit of a tossup.

Both lights shine farthur than you can see with the naked eye.. 
but we do want to be able to see "what we can see" really stinkin good!

I do appreciate the intense narrow focus ability of the Xevision to pierce the darkness if needed.

I really would like to see the Xevison go ahead and commit to the two stage ballast that would allow 35/50 watts with a touch of a switch or 50/75.
That definately would make the light even more practicle to be classified as "a light for every occasion" except maybe not for reading the newspaper on the couch at night! 
But you could put it up in the backyard on wide angle so you and all your neighbors could read at night! :huh2:

Thats something the Polarion cannot do since I don't believe that version is focusable that I could see in the pdf they provide... thats a major bummer not to have for practicle usability.
In fact, I don't believe either of thier lights will focus.

The smaller battery of the Polarion "4400mah" forces thier newest more expensive light to drop to a 90 min runtime with the 40watt emission they are doing.
The Xevision kills them on battery power.. enough so that the 50 watt version still has more runtime "90-95mins" than polarions 40 watt version. "90 mins"

Although the newest polarion has a cool pretty lighted battery checker.. it checks only upon initial startup the best I can tell.
Not only is that not that accurate since the battery is totally fresh, but while using the light, you would have to turn the light off and then back on to see how much time you have left.
The Xevisions method of pressing a button anytime you want to put a load on the battery seems better to me. I don't know if this feature works regardless of whether the light is already on or not?
The reflector of the Xevison is a bit bigger, making it easier to throw light.

The Xevision is shorter and about 1lb heavier.

Both are slick attractive looking lights, but all in all, unless I'm missing something..the Xevison wins in my mind!


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## LuxLuthor (Sep 29, 2006)

I have the XeVision 50W, and the X990, and for any purpose that I would want a light in a 35-75W HID category, my preference is for brighter. I can barely stand to use my X990 anymore, which is a well made and economical light..but only because I bought the XeVision...and it pales in comparison.

Personally, I would have a very hard time wanting to get the new Polarion Helios for a price that is double the XeVision GB price I paid, but with less lumens....even though it is ergonomically sleeker. 

The XeVision is very portable, relatively light weight, and I have used it in a couple of snow & rainstorms without any problems or concerns. I have no doubt that it will last a long time...and just WORKs when you need a powerful light.


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## BVH (Sep 29, 2006)

Windstrings, my Helios battery guage is full-time, not just upon start up. By full-time, I mean it flashes the battery state-of-charge every so many seconds while on.

I had the earlier Polarion and was present at HID shootout 3D when the Xevision BB & 50 watt and the Polarion went head-to-head. For its 35 Watts, the Polarion was at least as bright as the Xevision 50 Watt and, in my opinion, had a much smoother beam and corona. The Polarion and the BB lights performed very similarly up to the target tree distance. The BB took over beyond that distance and provided additional wide-angle light. Both the Polarion and the Helios are fixed focus. But the reflectors are designed to give both a bright hotspot and an exceptional corona that, in my opinion, negates the need for variable focus. That may sound strange, (it would to me if I hadn't had them) but if you see one in person, you would understand. The original Polarion is a very, very nice light. I recommend going back and looking at the pics from Shootout 3D and compare the beamshots.


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## Lips (Sep 29, 2006)

I think what BVH is saying is born out and portrayed on this page:
http://home.earthlink.net/~kenshiro2/hid2/50comp.html
50watts (except for Polarion) - good reading



The V1 Rayzors with SMO reflectors in the compilation on this thread are the same type units shot on the above page link. The battery types were upgraded and changed in the units I shot-out. Notice the V1's performance against the X990 in the photo compilation in this thread. They are set at 28watts and 50watts on boost. 


The Xevision is a beautiful light and on my list. 50w or 75w. Love the small grip design of the Helios especially. A large group buy for the Helios at a sub $1000 sure would be nice; Ive heard rummers about one at a price way lower than that... Let's Hope!

These lights all have there pros and cons & strengths and weaknesses...


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## windstrings (Sep 29, 2006)

LuxLuthor said:


> I have the XeVision 50W, and the X990, and for any purpose that I would want a light in a 35-75W HID category, my preference is for brighter. I can barely stand to use my X990 anymore, which is a well made and economical light..but only because I bought the XeVision...and it pales in comparison.
> 
> Personally, I would have a very hard time wanting to get the new Polarion Helios for a price that is double the XeVision GB price I paid, but with less lumens....even though it is ergonomically sleeker.
> 
> The XeVision is very portable, relatively light weight, and I have used it in a couple of snow & rainstorms without any problems or concerns. I have no doubt that it will last a long time...and just WORKs when you need a powerful light.



LuxLuthor, is that the stock 50W or is that boosted to 75 with the kit?
I wasn't sure if you ever got the kit yet for Xevision.

I am really stuggling with going to 75 watts unless its a dual switch where I can toggle between the two... 60 min runtime at 75 watts is pretty quick if you are doing more than just playing with it and you really need it for something.

In fact I think I would almost prefer the toggle switch on the 35 watt model to go to 50... 150 mins of runtime would be really nice.

Of course having the best of both worlds is even better, if we could toggle between 50/75 with an extended battery to give more runtime...but it sounds like that is not an option without completly reworking things due to the needed heat sink.


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## windstrings (Sep 29, 2006)

BVH said:


> Windstrings, my Helios battery guage is full-time, not just upon start up. By full-time, I mean it flashes the battery state-of-charge every so many seconds while on.
> 
> I had the earlier Polarion and was present at HID shootout 3D when the Xevision BB & 50 watt and the Polarion went head-to-head. For its 35 Watts, the Polarion was at least as bright as the Xevision 50 Watt and, in my opinion, had a much smoother beam and corona. The Polarion and the BB lights performed very similarly up to the target tree distance. The BB took over beyond that distance and provided additional wide-angle light. Both the Polarion and the Helios are fixed focus. But the reflectors are designed to give both a bright hotspot and an exceptional corona that, in my opinion, negates the need for variable focus. That may sound strange, (it would to me if I hadn't had them) but if you see one in person, you would understand. The original Polarion is a very, very nice light. I recommend going back and looking at the pics from Shootout 3D and compare the beamshots.



You may be right.. I concur with your findings with the shootout... there is a very neglible difference between polarions 35 watts and the 50 watts of the others.

Every light I have ever played with, I honestly never use the wide beam anyway.. Its just nice to know its there if you want to set it up to work on a shed etc in the backyard or whatever..... good to know you have that option.

With that being said, the other main deterrant is runtime. Spending a 1000.00 bucks for the same runtime as the X990 "it also uses a 4400mah battery, but NiMh" is not appealing too much. The X990 is a very awesome light for the money however and from what I gather was so awesome thats it still the "standard" for for that price range even with the NiMh batt instead of LiIon!

In light of new competition I really think the polarions are a bit overpriced both on thier low end model as well as high. The Xevision is cheaper with an option to go 35 or 50watt for the same price with battery that is at least 50% longer runtime at 35 rating "comparing to polarion 35W"

I too think the Polarion is an awesome light, but like all techy things.. they now don't stand up to the competition for the price they want.


As far as the battery checker.. It must be measuring battery voltage "before" it hits the ballast.
This would be a reasonably accurate way to check voltage.... maybe the Xevision measures only voltage too?.. I don't know..

But just judging by the pics.. it looks like the Xevision has you touch a button and it may check "amperage load draw".. which would be much more accurate, but of course dissipate the battery needlessly if you use it all the time..
At any rate.. thats not really a biggy for decision making purposes anyway... if it works within reason..... it works.

Thanks for your input from a polarion owner. If not for the smaller battery they have, I think they would be on par.

*I guess a good question would be... now that you own the polarion "older and newer version", would you purchase a polarion again today at existing prices if you had it to do all over again, or would you get an Xevision 50W thats cheaper and still has a tad more runtime even at 50 watts than the polarion at 35 or 40 watts?

That may not be a fair question for Xevision if you don't also have access to one of thier 50W lights to compare.

If not, maybe you have an X990 to compare with since Luxluthor said his Xevision 50 effectively "trounced" it... love that word!
*


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## Lips (Sep 29, 2006)

windstrings said:


> With that being said, the other main deterrant is runtime. Spending a 1000.00 bucks for the same runtime as the X990 "it also uses a 4400mah battery, but NiMh" is not appealing too much. The X990 is a very awesome light for the money however!



Another thing to consider is that a brand new *Lithium Ion battery drop-in * solution should be coupleted in the next few months for the Acro *X990* giving it Lithium Ion runtime and more charged shelf life. Breathing new life, power, functionality into the X990. The X990 may even sport a new body...


Alot of these spotligt/searchlights use Lithium Ion technology but are unable to sit for months at a time and remain fully charged. End users expect to grab the lights 6 months later and have them be fully charged and their not.


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## LuxLuthor (Sep 29, 2006)

My XeVision is the one I gave you the link to on their website with that bulb which is the same as in the 35W. Dan has not had the time to gather the details, parts, prices to complete our 50W original GB upgrade to the Barn Burner, but we are next on his list before any other GB's are done by Dan....so having bought this way back in Feb, we are still waiting to be able to upgrade ours to the 75W Philips DL-50 and 75W ballast. So, my reports are all on the model which is on his website, which was originally a GB here.

I would forget the idea you keep having of any XeVision model having a dual function 35==>50W or 50W==75W switch/boost like the other model. I have not ever heard anything about this being considered, and as you will see....new projects move rather slowly. If I had to guess, I would doubt you could get a new 75W Barn Burner model from XeVision before April-June, if even that soon.

The Polarion Helios obviously looks of very high quality, and has a past reputation...but personally, I just can't justify a 35W HID light for $1500, even with its features, but lacking a spot/zoom focus adjustment. When you want that much light, the 50W HID's at much cheaper prices like the XeVision are hard to beat. It's never been a big deal to me to have a huge battery running time...as very few tasks need that much constant light between recharge intervals.

When you ask questions on what someone would want now, or new vs. old Polarion.....you have to take into account any personal interests/connection they may have in a particular light, as well as what their uses are. I have no personal interests or relationships with any of these light companies, and If I had it to do over again, I would not have bought the X990, since the XeVision 50W is so much brighter and a better overall package. I will soon upgrade it to a 75W Barn Burner model, and keep my old parts if I ever want to swap back down _(which I doubt I will do....as more light is an insatiable addiction...which is also why I'm now in line for a Larry12K from AW.)_


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## windstrings (Sep 29, 2006)

Lips said:


> Another thing to consider is that a brand new *Lithium Ion battery drop-in * solution should be coupleted in the next few months for the Acro *X990* giving it Lithium Ion runtime and more charged shelf life. Breathing new life, power, functionality into the X990. The X990 may even sport a new body...
> 
> 
> Alot of these spotligt/searchlights use Lithium Ion technology but are unable to sit for months at a time and remain fully charged. End users expect to grab the lights 6 months later and have them be fully charged and their not.



did what you mean to say " Alot of these spotligt/searchlights use NiMh technology but are unable to sit and remain fully charged"?

The existing X990 uses NiMh and unless you use it on a regular basis, you will find the battery depleted months later. They don't recommend leaving it on a charger that long.. even though it regulates it.

NiMh loses 2 to 5% a "day" just sitting based on quality.. whereas LiIon loses virtually nothing... in fact they are considered to have a 20 year shelf life.

Both have no memory issues ... esp the LiIon, but the main advantage of the NiMh is the ability to transfer huge amounts of energy at a given moment... "thats why my Two toyota prius hybrids use them".. and the LiIon technology is on the brink of fixing that solution too... but until then, that little problem can be offset by useing a "larger LiIon". Most of the stress is upon startup anyway and then your good.

But LiIon is so much more "efficient" ... given the same size, the LiIon will have much more Mah capacity... so a lighter flashlight, or more runtime for the same weight!...

I have heard rumors about the x990 second hand from the maker, but I don't know if I am free to release what I have heard yet... let just say "what you said" plus more!
The 5 inch reflector they use gives an edge. Thats bigger than both the Xevision and Polarion.
And the X990 definatly has the battery "drop in" solution figured out.... if they made one that was long and cylindrical or rectangular to easily carry in a pocket it would be even more awesome.
The existing one is very bulky.


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## BVH (Sep 29, 2006)

Hmmm, I'v driven a couple of Prius's that use LiPo's and plug in at night!

Quite frankly, I am not the person to ask about whether or not I would spend the extra money to buy the Helios again, at regular prices. I would - because I really don't need any of the lights I buy - I'm not looking for practicality - I just want the latest and greatest gadgets. (Talk about a fool and his money) And I've done my share of "buy them both". (I don't have a BB or an X990 though)


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## Lips (Sep 29, 2006)

The battery I'm talking about will go inside the stock X990 battery case and the Nimh will be replaced with Lith Ion. Same plastic battery carrier. 

Alot of these high end spot lights have lithium ion batteries but the loose there charge between a few weeks to a few months and require recharging ofton to remain ready for action.


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## windstrings (Sep 29, 2006)

BVH said:


> Hmmm, I'v driven a couple of Prius's that use LiPo's and plug in at night!



Those guys that are rigging up thier Prius's that way are "greatly" increasing the MaH capacity of their main battery bank.
The LiIon does just fine with the needed energy transfers to and from if they are bigger.

But the 99lb battery that comes with the stock prius works really hard and a LiIon that same size.. .even though more effecient prob would be much much more expensive and not be able to hold up.. I bet these guys are using 200+ lbs of batteries to pull it off.
Maybe even newer technology!
Looking back I see you said "LiPos"... Lithium Phosphate I presume? NICE!

But when you brake, a 50K generator charges the batts and coasting alone does 10K. Thats alot of juice!

But thats another subject.. I brought it up to demonstrate the different characteristics of existing LiIon and that they are definatly to be desired in a light if used intermittently.

I put mine under my bed so if I ever need to get up or find an intruder in the house, I would render him tee totally blind!...The other option is to blow his head off, and thats aweful messy and wakes up the neighbors ... more paperwork too!


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## windstrings (Sep 29, 2006)

Lips said:


> The battery I'm talking about will go inside the stock X990 battery case and the Nimh will be replaced with Lith Ion. Same plastic battery carrier.
> 
> Alot of these high end spot lights have lithium ion batteries but the loose there charge between a few weeks to a few months and require recharging ofton to remain ready for action.



Thats scary.. that sounds totally "non typical" for LiIon.. I wonder if they are using real crap sometimes?

It sounds like you have an "in" with your knowledge about the X990.
Are you hearing any scuttlebutt about them going to 75 Watts?
I know they are concerned with heat and want to maintain utmost quality and life of the light through time.
Thier existing head is extremely efficient at transferring light, as it doesn't even hardly get warm at 35 watts, but I suspect they would have to add heat sinks at 75 watts?...

Another negative of going 75 watts is that GE "cosidered the best" doesn't make a 75 watt bulb or even 50 watt to boost up that I know about.
Of course I know very little... this is just what I know.

They will have to go with the Phillips.


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## BVH (Sep 29, 2006)

I think they are Lith ion, not LiPo, my mistake.


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## windstrings (Sep 30, 2006)

BVH said:


> Windstrings, my Helios battery guage is full-time, not just upon start up. By full-time, I mean it flashes the battery state-of-charge every so many seconds while on.
> 
> I had the earlier Polarion and was present at HID shootout 3D when the Xevision BB & 50 watt and the Polarion went head-to-head. For its 35 Watts, the Polarion was at least as bright as the Xevision 50 Watt and, in my opinion, had a much smoother beam and corona. The Polarion and the BB lights performed very similarly up to the target tree distance. The BB took over beyond that distance and provided additional wide-angle light. Both the Polarion and the Helios are fixed focus. But the reflectors are designed to give both a bright hotspot and an exceptional corona that, in my opinion, negates the need for variable focus. That may sound strange, (it would to me if I hadn't had them) but if you see one in person, you would understand. The original Polarion is a very, very nice light. I recommend going back and looking at the pics from Shootout 3D and compare the beamshots.


Ok.. you effectively and diplomatically dodged that question! 

Let me ask you another way... It looks like on the 35 watt shootout that the polarion shot has too little contrast.. if you look closely and were to turn up the constrast to match the look of the Xevision shot, it really looks like the 35 watt Polarion may actually have more punch than the Xevison 50 watt?
I'm only judgeing from these pictures.....

It would be good to hear from someone who had both.
Luxluthor already stated the Xevision trounces the X990, but the polarion also trounces the X990... so how does the polarion 35watt stand up to the Xevision 50Watt?

the larger battery on the Xevision allows the same runtime at 50 watts that the polarion does at 35.. but the batteries on the polarion change out easy and are waterproof.

The main deterant is the price. To get on equal ground with the Xevision as far as runtime, you have to pay 100.00 more for the unit itself, then buy an extra battery to boot which is another 175.00 on top of that. After the 275.00 extra expense above the Xevision, you would end up with a total of 200 mins of runtime which is 50 min more than the Xevison on its one battery alone.

Since you were present at the shootout.. I still want to know after considering all those issues... 

*2 basic questions:
1. Do you love your polarion enough to pay the extra 275.00?
and 
2. Do you feel you would end up with a "brighter" light than the Xevision 50watt after seeing both perform at the shootout?
I did notice you mentioned the 50W extended beyond the target tree for side vision.
*
I do realize the 50 watter will have more lumens.. but as demonstrated with the Costco HID which had less lumens than them all, it still outshined them on the 50w shootout while it was only 35 watts. How it "handles" the lumens makes the difference.

*One more question:*
Do you remember how the polarion stood out against the X990?
The reason I ask, I have handled the X990 and am familiar with its beam.

thanks again for your help


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## NAW (Oct 5, 2006)

larryk said:


> I bought the RayzorLite used here on CPF.


 
I just noticed you have an AE Powerlight from another thread. I too have an AE 24W HID. How do the two lights compare? I know the rayzorlite will be brighter but is it signifigant? 

-Thanks


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## larryk (Oct 5, 2006)

Funny you should mention the PL24. I just sold it to CPF member MSaxatilus. Comparing the PL24 and RayzorLite outside, they seemed fairly close in output, the RayzorLite slightly better in boost mode. The RayzorLite's focus was set for optimal throw. But doing a ceiling bounce test with a light meter told a different story. The RayzorLite was 85% brighter than the PL24 on the standard setting, and a whopping 135% brighter in boost mode. A better reflector for the RayzorLite is in the making I've heard. Hopefully the new reflector will get all those lumens into a better focused beam.


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## mtbkndad (Oct 5, 2006)

windstrings,

I was at the same shootout as BVH and have my own photos of it.
I think you are looking a things a little backwards.
BVH already mentioned he would get the Helios again. I am planning on getting one too. For me the main consideration is compact size. I do not personally feel the extra light of the XeVision 50 watt is sufficient enough to warrant the extra size over the original Polarion when the Polarion is only a couple hundred more. The two lights do seem to be a bit of a wash in terms of light output. When Mr Ted Bear and I did the Barnburner shootout the 50 watt XeVision did seem brighter to me.
When we all got together for the Polarion/Eagleye shootout the Polarion did seem a little brighter then the 50 watt XeVision. The beauty of the XeVision is that we also tried a whole bunch of other bulbs in the light that night. It is real easy to work on that light.

Now the Helios is 40 watts and will fit into my mtb backpack and not take a lot more room then my Mag85. If I need it in an emergency, the cost of the Helios will be money well spent. The Helios reflector has also been redesigned to put more light into the corona and less into the spill then the old model Polarion.
The Helios is also under 4lbs.

The X990 is a nice light. The Polarion does out perform it both in throw and the brightness and size of the corona. Overwhelmingly so, no. When I look at your original question I think in terms of total product for dollar spent and my intended use.

In the $1,000 and below range, I personally do not think there is a "best light" and therefore look at the lights like this.

If throw is all that matters Costco/ Harbor Freight is the current king of bargain HID's. (I have two)
If small size and decent throw with a good wide corona are most important then the
Polarion is tops.
If a nice design that is easy to work on in a reasonably small size with a nice wide beam that also has decent throw is what is important to you, then the XeVision 50 watt is nice.
If you would like an adjustable head, don't mind a larger light Then a Polarion, and performance close to the Polarion in terms of light output, at a much lower price, get the X990.

If you want almost as much throw as the Costco HID with a wider more useable hotspot, a rounder and slightly larger corona, cleaner spill, a better color temp bulb, and a more manageable size, get the Amondotech Illuminator. 
For me personally, I do not have any trouble carrying the Illuminator around for extended periods. (It weighs roughly 8lbs 10 or 11oz. It is very well balanced and feels lighter to me.) As a result, anything from the X990 - the old model Polarion are not worth the upgrade for me since I have two Illuminators. 
When it comes to my mountain biking I really want a high quality HID in my pack.
For my purpose the Helios is worth the price even though it is significantly more then the Polarion (Old style Polarion $950, Helios $1595). My intended purpose for the light and the size and weight I am willing to carry make the Helios worth every penny, once I get the pennies together. 
I would never consider an AE 24 or Brightstar because of their high color temp bulbs (6,000K for AE and 7,000K for Brightstar). They are also significantly bigger then my Mag85 without it's overall illuminating capacity.
Yes they can out throw my Mag85 and last longer, but the Mag85 puts out much more light over all and I always have a Falcata 9V, a Gladius, and extra batteries with me on the solo nights rides I do.

As Larry said earlier, overkill is good. I will add to that statement.
For me, overkill is good when is significantly improves upon that which others deem sufficient. 

Take Care,
mtbknad :wave: :sleepy:


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## BVH (Oct 5, 2006)

Windstrings Quote: "Since you were present at the shootout.. I still want to know after considering all those issues... 

2 basic questions:
1. Do you love your polarion enough to pay the extra 275.00?
and 
2. Do you feel you would end up with a "brighter" light than the Xevision 50watt after seeing both perform at the shootout?
I did notice you mentioned the 50W extended beyond the target tree for side vision."

Windstrings:

1. Yes, definitely I would pay the extra money for my Polarion Helios.
2. My Polarion Helios is definitely "brighter" than the 50 watt Xevision. Let me qualify that by saying it has a very smooth, linear and even gradation and is brighter from center of hotspot to outer corona whereas when a variable focus light is moved from spot to flood, the center of the beam/hotspot tends to develop a somewhat darker hole - its not a smooth, even transition. In my opinion, from hotspot to outer corona, the fixed-focus Helios is brighter and provides a wider footprint of light than the 50 Watt Xevision no matter how the Xevision is focused - spot - spot/flood - flood.

Just noticed the last line of your quote about the 50 Watt going further than the tree. Actually, I mentioned the BB - 75 Watt went beyond the target tree, not the 50 Watt.


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## windstrings (Oct 5, 2006)

BVH said:


> Windstrings Quote: "Since you were present at the shootout.. I still want to know after considering all those issues...
> 
> 1. Yes, definitely I would pay the extra money for my Polarion Helios.
> 2. My Polarion Helios is definitely "brighter" than the 50 watt Xevision. Let me qualify that by saying it has a very smooth, linear and even gradation and is brighter from center of hotspot to outer corona whereas when a variable focus light is moved from spot to flood, the center of the beam/hotspot tends to develop a somewhat darker hole - its not a smooth, even transition. In my opinion, from hotspot to outer corona, the fixed-focus Helios is brighter and provides a wider footprint of light than the 50 Watt Xevision no matter how the Xevision is focused - spot - spot/flood - flood.



Sorry about the 50W thing.. I keep mixing up the 50W and the 75W in my terms of BB.

So I'm assuming the 75W BB would be brighter than the Helios.
You brought up a good point.... weight and shape for backpacking!

I've never considered it for that yet, but good thinking!
I just bought a bunch of nice gear last year.
The Xevision is 5.3lbs, while the Helios is cylindrical and would cram into a nice tight spot much easier "I think", it is only 4lbs, however its 12 inches long "no biggy" and only 3 3/8 front diameter.
quite I feat I must say to get a light that bright with the diameter of the front reflector only being 3 3/8!.. but 700.00 more buckaronies?... Ouch!

 How long do you think it would take to get over the pain of spending another 700.00 bucks to get the Helios vs. the Xevison?

I bet you had to buy another battery too for the Helios if you're taking it hiking?


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## mtbkndad (Oct 5, 2006)

windstrings said:


> So I'm assuming the 75W BB would be brighter than the Helios.
> You brought up a good point.... weight and shape for backpacking!
> 
> I've never considered it for that yet, but good thinking!
> ...




The Helios will just be in my pack for emergencies, I have an Elektrolumens Quad mod that I further modded for my bike headlight with two extra battery packs. The Gladius gets use when hiking at night because it can be turned down very low. I also have some cheap LED headlights. The terrrain I ride is very unforgiving and one can't have too much light in emergency circumstances. Regarding the Helios and it's price, the first time the Helios goes into my pack, I will say "now that was worth it" .

Take Care,
mtbkndad :wave:


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## windstrings (Oct 5, 2006)

mtbkndad said:


> The Helios will just be in my pack for emergencies, I have an Elektrolumens Quad mod that I further modded for my bike headlight with two extra battery packs. The Gladius gets use when hiking at night because it can be turned down very low. I also have some cheap LED headlights. The terrrain I ride is very unforgiving and one can't have too much light in emergency circumstances. Regarding the Helios and it's price, the first time the Helios goes into my pack, I will say "now that was worth it" .
> 
> Take Care,
> mtbkndad :wave:



Very good!

Another question.. do you have the handle and if so do you like it?, or doesnt it just get in the way?


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## windstrings (Oct 5, 2006)

Well I haven't seen anyone dispute that the helios is definately the "kewlest" light out there regardless of price.

But it does have a hefty price tag on it.

I've never noticed any history of them doing a Group Buy..are they not up for that?


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## BVH (Oct 5, 2006)

Those of us who have them, got them on the one and only GB - as far as I am aware. I ordered the handleless version but got the handle version by mistake. I am very happy with the handle version and think I would have been less happy with the handleless. It feels very balanced in the hand when carried by the handle.


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## mtbkndad (Oct 5, 2006)

BVH said:


> Those of us who have them, got them on the one and only GB - as far as I am aware. I ordered the handleless version but got the handle version by mistake. I am very happy with the handle version and think I would have been less happy with the handleless. It feels very balanced in the hand when carried by the handle.



I missed the group buy, but have used a Helios on a couple occasions.
The last time was when BVH and I got together for the Helios photo shoot.
I agree with BVH. The handle is very nice. With the handle the operator has a choice to use the handle or not. The light feels very front heavy without it. I plan on getting the handled version for my mtb pack. The handle provides much more benefit then the negative of the little bit of extra space it will take in my pack.

Take Care,
mtbkndad :wave:


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## LuxLuthor (Oct 5, 2006)

The obviousl answer if to just tell him to get one of each. LOL!


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## windstrings (Oct 6, 2006)

After much deliberation, studying, and sleeping on it... I was tossed between the Helios Polarion, standard polarion, and the Xray 50.
Even if I wanted to stay down a 35 watts which would have put the polarion at the top of the list, the runtime was so far inferior the the Xray, it was cast out of the runnings.

This is my final deduction:

The Helios is a marvel in engineering "it appears anyway" and I see no regrets from anyone who has bought one.. except whether to get the handle version or not, but like Luxluthor, for my needs I find it difficult to pay near double price for a 40 Watt machine. Not that its wrong for someone else as it is a beauty indeed.. just not for me.
After counting all my pennies, I got cold feet. For the money, I think they need to consider a longer running battery to be competitive.
Many do not mind paying extra for "extra", but they hate to be "losing" something in the process of paying more at the same time.

It appears the polarion is more designed for the diver in mind "waterproof to 165 ft" with a fixed beam that is dialed in perfect, yet it cannot give the user the variability a focus beam can, nevertheless, it has an excellent corona and spill for the wattage. They are not too concerned with being able to pier into where no man has gone before, but rather make a very usable beam for distances the eye can assimilate without binoculars.

The regular polarion.. "35 watt" is also an excellent product.. in fact Ken had one at a good price that had a few hours on it. But again, for the same money and not needing to dive, I decided it would not outshine 50 watts coming from the Xray, nor have the same runtime.

The Xray 50 Watt has the same if not a tad more runtime than the regular polarion running at 35 watts, or for that matter, the Helios running at 40 watts.

To make it simple as far as shootouts, the polarion excells in it's corona and spill and still maintains distance that any 35 watt can do with exception to the Costco HID's or similiar that run those gargantua size reflectors. 

Polarion does an amazing job with only 3 3/8 reflector size... it's really an excellent feat in engineering.
The Helios weighs 4 lbs.. and about 12 inches long.
The Xray is about 5.3 lbs "but has a bigger LiIon battery", 11 inches long 5.25 inches wide and 6 inches tall. Not quite as tight a package as the Polarion but looks like you could drop it off a cliff and it would survive.

If you want absolute compactness with phenominal performance for the size "as for backpacking etc" and you really are willing to pay for classy fancy smancy engineering, and the lightest weight, and solid build, the Polarion is worth looking at "Helios". Just keep in mind the runtime at 35 or 40 watts is only about 90 - 95 mins. But the Helios Polarion has a "wow factor" even before you turn on the light!

If you want a totally bulletproof light thats built rugged, comfortable to carry in the one hand for long periods, and you like the ideal of getting a nice aluminum case with the deal "worth over 100.00" , and a beam throw that is unparalled.... the Xray can't be beat.
It really is a shame to have a light that nice without a case. Xevision throws one in with the deal. Polarion also has them, but they are extra.

If your considering the polarion, check this thread... warning... the pics will make you salivate and your heart go pitter patter!.. but not all finishes are available..

If you considering the Xevision, look at these beam shots to convince yourself...*Helios,Costco,Amondotech beam shots*
75 watt Xray barn burner "not available", but has excellent comparision shots of the Xray 50 watt with X990 and regular polarion and others here.

 Helios against the X990 here.

Although there are not direct shootout comparisons with the helios and the Xray 50 watt, you can deduct from those links as you compare the Helios against the X990 and them compare that against the Xray and the X990.... you have to come up with your own assumption.

As for me I decided the right decision for me was the Xray 50 Watt.. you may be different.
This also gives my upgradability to the 75 watt level later without having to start at scratch and put this one on the shelf. Although I may be totally content with the 50 Watts.. I know the disease goes deeper and deeper. Seems the Xray is easier to work on and upgrade later.. so that was a major influence too.

Ken was so very nice on the phone, I feel a bit guilty for not purchasing one of his fine lights, I know I would not have regretted it, but my money is a bit tight at the moment. 
If I could have partaken in the GB, I think I would have stretched.

I have never spent near this much money on a light and this was a big jump for me... all you other rich guys out there can buy all three!


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## BVH (Oct 6, 2006)

Windstrings, enjoy your Wonderful HID and Welcome to the Big Leagues!


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## windstrings (Oct 7, 2006)

Hey, Thanks BVH.. your post have been quite helpful and informative....
I would love to be able to participate more and actually conduct test etc but I think I would have to mortgage my home to get enough lights to really help out.

Its hard to find folks "especially wives" who appreciates the value in these phenominal lights.

My only experience with an HID so far is the X990... and that blew me away!

People are quite impressed with the light allright, but if you tell them the price their mouth falls open.

So, I do appreciate your warm invitation. We fanatics are a rare breed and have to stick together!

I do feel a sense of buyers remorse and wished I could have figured a way to get the Helios... but I suppose if I would have bought the Helios, I would feel the same remorse and want the Xray50 thats upgradable.

Both lights are complete enough to be totally sufficient by themselves, yet it would sure be fun to play with both.

Maybe someday I'll find someone in my area that has a Helios.. I think If I could just play with it for about 10 minutes I would be satisified by knowing what I missed.

I love to fish.. .if I get a really really big one on the line and lose it... I never mind it near as much if I just got to see what it was before it broke the line!


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## LuxLuthor (Oct 7, 2006)

The honest truth is there are all the tradeoffs you mentioned...but you would have been happy with either one. I do suspect that eventually Dan will have parts to allow you to upgrade to the 75W if you choose to do that. I have to be careful where I use the 50W....it freaks people out in many areas....like space invaders are coming to get them...lol! The 75W will have them hiding in their basements. Then just wait until I get the Larry12K from Andrew !!!

Those links you posted are all incomplete...they are like:

http://www.showthread.php/?t=134293 instead of

http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php/?t=134293


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## BVH (Oct 7, 2006)

I want the Larry14+ from Andrew! I bought a couple of the hosts and 2 Q4559x's but have not gone after the battery pack at this point. Its probably not a very "useful" light but what fun it would be to light up the whole block! Maybe when I retire, I'll get them done.

I agree with what Lux says about it freaking people out. I sneak out after 9 PM and do some quick illuminations before people can come out and see whats disturbing the peace. Why should I feel guilty?


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## FILA BRAZILIA (Oct 7, 2006)

Windstrings; I have done some research on HID lights this week, and I agree with your conclusions. I haven`t seen ONE HID light in action, though.  
But I have seen some beamshots, and if they are right, i don`t like the Freight Harbor/Costco HID. Personally; my favourites are- OLD Polarion, Xevision XeRay and Amondotech Illuminator. The NEW Helios is surely better than the old one, but is it worth paying 645$ more- NO, I can`t imagine that...Maybe if I see both lights in action at the same time.
I agree with you that the case XeVision offer with the XeRay 50W, without cost, is a big advantage, in comparision with the Polarion.
I have 2 questions in mind, I hope you can answer them (question #1 is for all you out there)  
1) Have you seen the old Polarion, and the new one (HELIOS W), side by side, in the field? Is there any beamshot pictures of these 2, at the same place, to compare?
2) Why don`t you consider the Amondotech Illuminator 35W HID? It is, in fact, only 129$ for that light (CPF Price), that is only 1/6 of the XeVision price. 
FB


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## FILA BRAZILIA (Oct 7, 2006)

Missed 1 word at the end of question #1, should be: ...TAKEN at the same place, to compare?
(Place or location).
FB


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## windstrings (Oct 7, 2006)

> Windstrings; I have done some research on HID lights this week, and I agree with your conclusions. I haven`t seen ONE HID light in action, though.


  
I'm not the best to ask, but I'm sure some of the others will help.
I've played with the X990, and believe me, it blows away "any" other normal flashlight thats non HID!

That being said, there are no direct comparisons between the Helios and the regular Polarion side by side that I know of, but I provided links for both.
Keep in mind the Helios is only 5 more watts and quite possibly the same reflector "but I don't know that for sure".
They are both submersible to very deep and both have the same or near the same AH LiIon battery "although they will not interchange".
The main advantage I see with the Helios is the "even more compactness" as it only has a 3 3/8 diameter reflector and the regular polarion is about the same BUT has an outer ring that effectively adds another inch to the OD of the ring.
I think they should have called it "the gernade"... it sure looks like you are hold a hand gernade "esp with the handled on" and the picture cropped!

If you really "really" study all the beam shots like I did, you will see a slight difference in wattage whereas the Helios is brighter than the regular polarion, but the main advantage I see to both units is the wonderful job they did on the corona and reflector.
Look at the ground as see just how much is covered and covered very evenly and a very large area.
This may be the best light for real use spotlighting because it is so easy on your eyes with the smooth blend between the hotspot and the large distance to the outer corona before is gradually drops to the spill area and then disappears.
I could see police etc using this light to find bad guys behind house and apartments more effectively than the other lights.

The "wow effect" may be more impressive since it covers such a large area "where" you can actually see. The Xray 50 watt "from what I'm told" piers into depths that you cannot really see with your eyes unless you aid them with binoculars...at thats at the expense of less corona area.
BUT, since the Xray has a focusable beam, thats a non issue.

If you are wanting to use your light for distances that are usual to look for.. like across great distances in canyons at night or tops of trees "for coons" at great distances like the other side of the lake and still be able to blind your target, the others may be better since they project a bit farthur with the added wattage and total lumens.
Polaron has the others beat as far as what they do with thier wattage.
But I feel for the money they need to get a bigger battery or lower the cost.. but only the market will tell the real story.

I just couldn't see how "even the 40 W Helios" would "outperform" the Xevision 50W for general wow effect and blasting into the darkness.
Its one thing being able to see an object at 300 yards, its another to see it "good". Plus I liked the warm and fuzzy feeling of knowing "just in case" I could upgrade later to the 75W if I wanted. Of course I would have the cost of a ballast and bulb, but thats still way cheaper than buying a whole new light and letting this one sit.

To each his own.
I would have been a very proud owner of a Helios should I have gotten one, but like you, I just felt that the Xevision was far more light when the money is considered.

Even if they were the same price.. I would have a stuggle as to which one to pick....

The Helios is definately an impressive piece of hardware...no doubt!
But I think the real meat is in the Xevision "with exception to diving abilities"
That Just my opinion... "which is not very informed".. so take it as a grain of salt.




> 2) Why don`t you consider the Amondotech Illuminator 35W HID? It is, in fact, only 129$ for that light (CPF Price), that is only 1/6 of the XeVision price.


Although the illuminator "like the costco unit" does a great job for the money, I wanted higher in quality.. and type of battery.
Lead Acid stinks for real use, unless you can charge it right back up when your done.
The plates naturally get sulfates on them during normal discharge.. if you don't charge them back up promtly the sulfates stick to the plates and won't come back off to go back into solution and you effectively lose that much of the plate for future use.
In other words...every time that happens, your battery gets smaller, but you carry the same weight!

NiMh has stinky shelf life.. they lose around 2 - 5 % in one day just sitting there.

Only LiIon at this time is practicle unless you are a frequent user, charger upper, of your light on a near daily basis.

Plus LiIon is much more efficient to carry Amp Hours worth of energy for thier size.
They do have a negative side in that they cannot dissipate or accept vast volumes of energy at once very well like the other two, but if the battery is big enough, thats not an issue because they are not taxed for thier size.

If I was wanting to only spend less than 400, then the Illuminator would be a consideration, but I'm sure it would get beat out by the X990, which is built well and has has a high tech focusable aluminum head with a glass reflector "supposedly non breakable" , and the light BTW is in the process of getting revamped to a LiIon battery with possibly larger capacity.
I was impressed in that during use, the head barely gets warm due to reflecting all the energy so well out the 5 inch front.
The X990 is the only HID light I have direct "hands on" experience with.


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## mtbkndad (Oct 7, 2006)

FILA BRAZILIA said:


> Windstrings; I have done some research on HID lights this week, and I agree with your conclusions. I haven`t seen ONE HID light in action, though.
> But I have seen some beamshots, and if they are right, i don`t like the Freight Harbor/Costco HID. Personally; my favourites are- OLD Polarion, Xevision XeRay and Amondotech Illuminator. The NEW Helios is surely better than the old one, but is it worth paying 645$ more- NO, I can`t imagine that...Maybe if I see both lights in action at the same time.
> I agree with you that the case XeVision offer with the XeRay 50W, without cost, is a big advantage, in comparision with the Polarion.
> I have 2 questions in mind, I hope you can answer them (question #1 is for all you out there)
> ...




I believe there are pictures of Polarion Old model and Helios, but the persons that would have them are not around CPF very much anymore.
I was invited to a photo shoot in August that would have had both, but was at the YMCA of the Rockies in Estes Park Colorado at the time.
I have seen both on a couple of different occasions each. BVH has owned both. I do not know that most shots would show much difference unless they are shot from behind the stand holding the light. I started doing this because without doing shots from well behind the stand holding the lights the brightness, and useability of the spill cannot be seen. Light's like the Amondotech Illuminator loose points for their smaller corona, but gain points for their wide and very useable spill with regard to my purposes when using them.
If I could get access to both Polarion models, I would love to do beam shots side by side at a couple of different locations.
Regarding the price difference, I believe you are looking at this backwards like I mentioned to windstrings earlier in this thread. If light output is all you are concerned with for $ spent, then the old Polarion is the better buy then the Helios, and the 50 Xevision is a better buy then the Polarion. 

The persons that will find the Helios a bargain are people that need the absolute best combination of Small Size First and then good light output second. In these terms, the Helios has no equal even near it's price range at the present time. For that Matter the Helios is an absolute steal compared to it's only real competitor, which would be the Surefire Beast.

Regarding 2
While specifically directed at windstrings, since I own two Illuminators and have seen all of the others mentioned on a couple of occasions, I will give my take on this.

For sheer balance of really nice throw from it's bright hotspot and a good light output from it's bright, though not large compared to the smaller reflector lights, corona and wide useable spill. The Amondotech Illuminator is the best HID bang for the buck available right now. Yes it is a little bulky at over 8 lbs, but it will outhrow nearly all of the under $1,000 lights. The only one that it will not out throw is the Costco HID. For sheer throw it will slightly best the Barn burner. Where the Barn Burner wins is in overall wide, bright, very bright  , light. Lest everybody get too enamoured with the Barn Burner, the not for sale Ken 4 is smaller and spanks it. :whoopin: :whoopin: :whoopin: . When I first saw the Ken 4 all I could think was "so much light should not be able to come out of something so small". Kenshiro's creations are truly remarkeable! :bow: :bow: :bow:

Since the weight of the Illuminator is not an issue for me, none of the above mentioned lights are enough of a performance gain for me to upgrade in the under $1,000 range. The one light that will fill my needs that the Illuminator and Costco HID's don't fill, is the Helios which is well over $1,000 and worth every penny.

The Helios is the "Apple of my HID eye". 
For lighting my yard for night croquet and other games with the family, some well placed Costoc HID's and Illuminators give 60 to 90 minutes of "home stadium lighting". For lighting up a rural roads hundreds of yards in the distance while walking dogs, the Amondotech Illuminator would be great as long as it's weight is not an issue for you. The original Polarion and 50 watt Xevision are very nice lights from two very good companies.
They just do not meet my personal needs well enough to justify the upgrade cost.

Take Care,
mtbkndad :wave:


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## mtbkndad (Oct 7, 2006)

Quick post,
The Helios reflector was designed to put less light into the spill and more light into the corona then the original Polarion. That is why beam shots that are direct comparisons would need to be done from behind the stand holding the light.

Take Care,
mtbkndad :wave:


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## FILA BRAZILIA (Oct 7, 2006)

windstrings; if you, some day, will have the XeRay in the house, let us know, and write a review here  mtbkndad; You are the beamshot-man, if someone will take side-by-side beamshot pictures of the 2 (Polarion/Helios), I hope you will do it. Maybe you could get together with BVH? I want a KEN 4, Kenshiro, do you hear me?


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## BVH (Oct 7, 2006)

I've had the old Polarion & EagleEye, I have the Helios and Amondotech and Costco HID's. I Love my Helios but I also love my Amondotech! Yes, its 8 lbs and my 150 pound body would get tired hauling it around for an hour, but there's just something about it that I love. It is an excellent light with great output, great throw and its 4300K color temp is really perfect for me.

I really can't say that I "see" a difference in output between my old 35 Watt Polarion and 40 Watt Helios - I think they're very close. But I can definitely tell the difference in the corona - at least from my memory of the Polarion.

If someone local has a Polarion and wouldn't mind the drive to Glendale/La Crescenta, I would think that Mtbkndad & myself could meet up and do some nice comparisons for the board. An EaglEye would also do. What the heck, if there's a Xevision 35 & 50 Watt and BB local, lets throw them into the mix, too.


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## Lips (Oct 7, 2006)

mtbkndad

I do not know that most shots would show much difference unless they are shot from behind the stand holding the light. I started doing this because without doing shots from well behind the stand holding the lights the brightness, and useability of the spill cannot be seen. Light's like the Amondotech Illuminator loose points for their smaller corona, but gain points for their wide and very useable spill with regard to my purposes when using them.
If I could get access to both Polarion models, I would love to do beam shots side by side at a couple of different locations.
Regarding the price difference, I believe you are looking at this backwards like I mentioned to windstrings earlier in this thread. If light output is all you are concerned with for $ spent, then the old Polarion is the better buy then the Helios, and the 50 Xevision is a better buy then the Polarion. 

The persons that will find the Helios a bargain are people that need the absolute best combination of Small Size First and then good light output second. In these terms, the Helios has no equal even near it's price range at the present time. For that Matter the Helios is an absolute steal compared to it's only real competitor, which would be the Surefire Beast.

Since the weight of the Illuminator is not an issue for me, none of the above mentioned lights are enough of a performance gain for me to upgrade in the under $1,000 range. The one light that will fill my needs that the Illuminator and Costco HID's don't fill, is the Helios which is well over $1,000 and worth every penny.

Take Care,
mtbkndad :wave:
--------------------------------------------------------------

mtbkndad


I'm a _little_ surprised that you discount the RayzorLite in this Class of Lights. 2.5hr Runtime, Rugged-Armoured-Durrable-Shock Proof - water proof, quick change batteries, fast start up with instant restrike, switches and gauges at the fingertips, comfortable armored grip with multiple holding angle design, 2 stages of output 32w for battery conservation and 50w with boost, upgradeable bulbs with multiple reflector options and a RayzorHead screw-on attachment for super-throw with a\c & d\c charger that runs the unit while simultaneously charging the unit. A nice case and strap at a fair price ($400 to $600). Not the prettiest unit or the shiniest light but a damn fine field performer. It weighs virtually the same as the Helios even though its two inches longer. 

Maybe I'm missing something...  

LIPS


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## BVH (Oct 7, 2006)

Lips, from my perspective, I remember the terrible showing they had at shootout 3 A&B. Mr. Ted Bear gave them the hit list but I don't ever remember seeing anything on the board indicating they had fixed their problems? Maybe there was and i just missed it?

The feature set you cite is very desireable and if its all there and works as it should, this should also be an excellent light for the money.


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## mtbkndad (Oct 7, 2006)

LIPS,

The Rayzorbeams and Rayzorlites I saw were not that great and I was told they were still being improved. Even on the group buy thread there was mention of QC problems and batteries depleting themselves. 
See Waion's post #140

https://www.candlepowerforums.com/posts/1625210#post1625210

They are very tough. I would say that is their strong point. They are not waterproof. They are WATER RESISTANT to 1meter for the Rayzorlite and 2 meters for the Rayzorbeam. That is a far cry from Waterproof to 165 feet.

Two inches longer with a larger reflector/head and a larger battery = significantly bulkier and less packable in my Hydrastorm Cyclone backpack then a Helios.
If the quality control issues have been addressed, I would consider them decent lights, but other then toughness, not best in any specific catagory.
I would purchase an X990 before I would buy either the Rayzorbeam or Rayzorlite. 

Once a light is not packable, then I do not see upgrading beyond my Illuminators or Costco HIDs with the current lights that are available. All of the lights I mentioned I listed because I personally find them best in these different areas

original Polarion- 
Under $1,000 size champ, great light output for it's size.
Actually very good light output period. Waterproof design below what I will ever need.

XeVision - 50 watt XeRay-
Well designed and reasonably small. Very good light output. Easily upgradeable when the time comes. Easy to work on even in cold driving 40+ mph winds (personal experience here).

X990-
Near Polarion light output in a larger, less expensive, very adjustable package.


Costco/Harbor Freight-
Completely self contained
The Current under $1,000 throw champ.

Amondotech Illuminator-
All around bargain basement bang for buck champ.
It's hotspot is larger and more useable then the Costco/HID and the Illuminator itself is smaller. While at over 8 lbs it is bulky, it is very well balanced and feels lighter then it is when carrying it.
As numerous Illuminator owners have mentioned, it does not throw much less then the Costco/Harbor Freight.
It also has a 4200K bulb that is much better for illuminating outdoor objects then the 6,000k bulb of the Costco/Harbor Freight. 

At $1595 the Helios is in a league of it's own. Both in size to performance and features to price. It is not fair to compare the Helios to the under $1,000 crowd and say it is expensive. Compare it with the Surefire Beast and the other lights made for the military that are in the $2,000 to $4,000 range and you will see that it is a steal at $1595.

(Note- The throw of the original Polarion, Helios, & 50 watt XeRay are very comparable, it is the difference in the size, shape, and brightness of the corona's where you will see the most difference in the photos of these lights. Any one of these lights will be great for searching for people and other low contrast items within 300+ yards. Any one of these lights will illuminate a decent area farther then the average person can see well at night.
High contrast items(rocks, light tree trunks, etc.) can be seen significantly farther then 300 yards. Decisions regarding the purchase of these three lights really needs to be made on the other features of these lights and needs one may have. )

I am not concerned with owning the toughest most throwable, literally throwable, light around and these are only my personal opinions.
Since I do not like saying bad things that may or may not be true and since I personally do not see the Rayzorbeam or Rayzorlite as the best in any of the areas that are important to me, I did not include them.

Take Care,
mtbkndad :wave:


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## Mr Ted Bear (Oct 7, 2006)

mtbkndad said:


> I believe there are pictures of Polarion Old model and Helios, but the persons that would have them are not around CPF very much anymore...
> Take Care,
> mtbkndad :wave:



I am here everyday, but I learned it is best to observe.

Buy both? No, I have bought them all. My favorite is a one of kind prototype, which can hardly throw 50 yards but there is no corona.... it has a perfectly even, 180 degree light pattern... best video light I have ever used

So you tell me, what is the best light?


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## BVH (Oct 7, 2006)

Hey Jeff, good to see you're still hanging around here! Miss your expertise a lot!


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## NAW (Oct 7, 2006)

Lips said:


> upgradeable bulbs with multiple reflector options


 
Hi LIPS, 

I never knew the Rayzorlites had upgradeable bulbs. Are the bulbs made directly from the manufactuers(the Rayzorbeam guys)? What type of bulbs are they? Whats the lumen output of the standard bulbs that come with the Rayzorlite? Whats the lumen output of the brighteset bulb possible? Do you know how much they cost?

-Okay I'll stop now...

-Thanks


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## windstrings (Oct 8, 2006)

FILA BRAZILIA said:


> windstrings; if you, some day, will have the XeRay in the house, let us know, and write a review here  mtbkndad; You are the beamshot-man, if someone will take side-by-side beamshot pictures of the 2 (Polarion/Helios), I hope you will do it. Maybe you could get together with BVH? I want a KEN 4, Kenshiro, do you hear me?



Oh Fila Fila!.. you got the wrong man!..these other guys are far more experienced than me!!.. I'm trying to learn what I can from them!

I've never participated in a live beamshot... I just studied the existing threads like crazy in order to decide which light to buy that best fit my needs and pocketbook.

I would love to get with these guys to do a beamshot.. but I would be asking tons of questions and driving them crazy!
I do tend to drive people crazy with details and being a perfectionist in many areas, but I am a novice in this field.

I know just enough to know I don't know much at all! :laughing: 

But thanks for you vote of confidence......

BTW...Ken said he had a nice "regular Polarion" that he will sell at a discount since its got a little "demo" use on it.
Around 700.00 I think if your interested.


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## mtbkndad (Oct 8, 2006)

Jeff,

It is great to hear from you. Clearly when shooting video, yours is the best  .
So do you have an original Polarion / Helios beam comparison you could post from the August shoot?

Take Care,
Daniel
mtbkndad :wave:

Added section-

Mr Ted Bear's garage is spotlight heaven :bow: :bow: :bow: .
He is a terrible influence on me    .
If there is a possibility of getting together in the next month or so with BVH and me, so I can take some "behind the camera stand" shots, give me a call when you get a chance.


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## Mr Ted Bear (Oct 8, 2006)

Daniel,

As you know, I was there. We studied the results on my computer, but I was not allowed to make copies of the originals.

If you study our prior work, you know that at an intermediate range (<100 yards) you know that the BEAST out performed all other lights. The Helios is more simular to the BEAST than the POLARION in this regards, while at the same time, the Helios is #1 in throw.

Sorry, but I am not allowed to make any further comment on that shootout


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## windstrings (Oct 8, 2006)

Lips said:


> I'm a _little_ surprised that you discount the RayzorLite in this Class of Lights. 2.5hr Runtime, Rugged-Armoured-Durrable-Shock Proof - water proof, quick change batteries, fast start up with instant restrike, switches and gauges at the fingertips, comfortable armored grip with multiple holding angle design, 2 stages of output 32w for battery conservation and 50w with boost, upgradeable bulbs with multiple reflector options and a RayzorHead screw-on attachment for super-throw with a\c & d\c charger that runs the unit while simultaneously charging the unit. A nice case and strap at a fair price ($400 to $600). Not the prettiest unit or the shiniest light but a damn fine field performer. It weighs virtually the same as the Helios even though its two inches longer.
> 
> Maybe I'm missing something...
> 
> LIPS



Lips, I tried to consider the rayzorbeams in my studies and I read the negative remarks too when they tried several at the shootouts and they just kept malfunctioning.. because I too thought they may have fixed thier problems...

But I got the impression thier marketing was either slow or they were still working on it.

I went to thier site "the only one I could find" and I couldn't even find a price.. seems I did find something and it said "pending" for the price, so I didn't pursue it furthur.
http://www.rayzorbeam.com/rayzorproducts.html

I wasn't into calling Australia to find answers and I figured it could be a warranty nightmare should I have problems from so far away.

I downloaded thier pdf's and still could find prices.. no contact information besides overseas? Tel: +613 9419 0088 Fax: +613 9419 0223
The only address I found was:
69 Little Oxford Street, Collingwood
Melbourne, VIC 3066


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## mtbkndad (Oct 8, 2006)

Jeff, 

Would it be possible for BVH and I to come by and do a shootout with his Helios and your Polarion, & some other lights again. If the answer is yes, then give me a call this week some time. I did notice how wide and even the corona of the Helios was when I saw BVH's and the other one I was able to test. Now that the Helios is out, there certianly should be no problem with a Helios owner bringing his light for a photo shoot.  . Plus if you can get the Ken 4 again I would love to get a picture when it has a full charge. As you know from my posts on this thread the Helios is definitely on my MUST HAVE list.

Take Care,
Daniel
mbkndad :wave:


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## Lips (Oct 8, 2006)

Adam

I think Waion has a group buy ongoing...


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## spyderknut (Oct 8, 2006)

How can I get the CPF price on the Amondotech Illuminator?


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## mtbkndad (Oct 8, 2006)

spyderknut said:


> How can I get the CPF price on the Amondotech Illuminator?



Click on the link below and then click on the link in either post #4 or #5.

http://candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=118392

Take Care,
mtbkndad :wave:


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## spyderknut (Oct 8, 2006)

Thank you mtbkndad:thanks:


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## NAW (Oct 8, 2006)

windstrings said:


> Lips, I tried to consider the rayzorbeams in my studies and I read the negative remarks too when they tried several at the shootouts and they just kept malfunctioning.. because I too thought they may have fixed thier problems...


 
I was told that the Rayzorbeam guys knew that there was a problem with the V2 units so before they sent it to the shootout they they labeled those particular V2 units "prototypes". I also heard the Rayzorbeam guys informed them about the problems before he received the lights. I have no idea if its true or not though...

-I for one am receiving a Rayzorlite soon so I'll give my comments on it when it arrives. I can't wait to get it. I'll be using it alot so if I find anything wrong I'll report it.


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## BVH (Oct 8, 2006)

Windstrings, never worry about asking too many questions. We all do it, especially when we we're new here. I, for one, don't ever get tired of answering them if I know the answers. Shootouts are great because you get to see a "live" beam. Sometimes the photo's tend to give a better picture than is seen in real life. Maybe because of the long time exposure. I tend to see things lit up in photos in the distance that aren't lit up when I'm there.

Daniel, Jeff, I'm game for a Polarion-Helios shootout.


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## mtbkndad (Oct 8, 2006)

Waion's problem light was WAY after the shootouts that I know of that were posted on this forum.

When Rhino90 introduced the Rayzorbeam and Rayzorlite on this forum HUGE claims were made that were never delivered upon. 
Statements like-

"The final versions will be available in approx 2 weeks. We are in Australia and the manufacturer. I'm glad to also say our units are currently under evaluation against MaxaBeams for use onboard navel ships/cost guards. The MaxaBeams don't have a chance and I'll get beamshots up by sometime next week." Post #9

By page two this was changed to -

"we are pretty sure we will get the tender. From reports, the Maxabeam is just to heavy/combersome, it has great throw but they want lumens and area coverage as well. I think the size and weight of our lights are also a big advantage." Post 48

Post 61 on page 3 had the original CPF price of $850.

http://candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=83955&page=1&pp=30

Anybody interested in Rayzorbeams and Rayzorlites that has not read this thread will find some good reading. I also do not care for companies that discount competitors products without having ever seen them. See post 50 on page 2.

Anybody that owns a Razorbeam or Rayzor light that is working well and is pleased with their purchase, great. You have a nice tough practical light. Once again, if you are not familiar with the thread above it will be an interesting read.

Take Care,
mtbkndad :wave:


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## windstrings (Oct 8, 2006)

BVH said:


> Windstrings, never worry about asking too many questions. We all do it, especially when we we're new here. I, for one, don't ever get tired of answering them if I know the answers. Shootouts are great because you get to see a "live" beam. Sometimes the photo's tend to give a better picture than is seen in real life. Maybe because of the long time exposure. I tend to see things lit up in photos in the distance that aren't lit up when I'm there.
> 
> Daniel, Jeff, I'm game for a Polarion-Helios shootout.



Thanks..I would have given The Razor much more serious consideration, but I think my timing was premature... "I hate it when that happens!".. no anyway, It will also be helpful and to get some Helios shots out there.

If you guys are going to do one, I would appreciate you throwing in the Xray 50W too, since thats one of the most powerful lights available at this time in this price range.
I think without that element, there will be a missing valuable part of the equation.
People will be forced to "assume" things and thats always frustrating if its unnecessary.

Thanks..


----------



## mtbkndad (Oct 8, 2006)

windstrings,

Personally I think you did your purchasing all wrong.
Your first light should have been a Surefire HellFighter for $6,499.

http://www.lapolicegear.com/suhehegunli.html

That way if you have a significant other, EVERY other light purchase after that would be down right cheap!    .

Actually, you will really enjoy your XeVision light.

Take Care,
mtbkndad :wave:


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## windstrings (Oct 8, 2006)

I did see that one believe it or not.... but They didn't include the all Chrome/gold plated machine gun thats supposed to go with it for that price, so I declined.....:laughing:


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## Knight Lights (Oct 9, 2006)

And where did this "HellFighter" name come from, that's a HELLFIRE!


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## cmacclel (Oct 9, 2006)

mtbkndad,

You said

"Polarion/Eagleye shootout the Polarion did seem a little brighter then the 50 watt XeVision"



I have owned the X990, Polarion / Eagle Eye and the XeVision 50 watter. Comparing them side by side the X990 and Polarion where comparable. The XeVision was on a whole different level and was MUCH brighter. Did you get things mixed up in your post??


Mac


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## mtbkndad (Oct 9, 2006)

cmacclel said:


> mtbkndad,
> 
> You said
> 
> ...



No I did not get anything mixed up in my post. I am sure you remember my statement prior to the one you quoted where I said in the previous shootout the 50 watt XeVision seemed brighter. I mentioned in one shootout the XeVision seemed brighter and in another shootout the Polarion seemed brighter. Also, I was referring to the hotspot itself, not the overall light output. I may not have been clear on that. I was not the only person that noticed this either. Unfortunately, my photos from the first shootout did not turn out real great so I could not compare the two shoots.

Take Care,
mtbkndad :wave:

Added Section-
Regarding the comparison mentioned above, it was the DL50 bulb at 50 watts that did not have quite as bright a hotspot as the Polarion in the second shootout. It did have a very wide and bright corona. We tried numerous bulbs and configurations in the Xevision, My favorite what I believe was a 50 watt settup was with a Philips Bulb that came in a white box. That is all I know about it. All of the 50 watt bulbs except the DL50 that night out threw the Polarion. While it was noticeable it was not overwhelming.
The fact that we could change out 7 different bulb and ballast configurations and there were all these different bulbs that could be tested is what I mentioned before about the strongest point of the XeVision XeRay from my perspective. It is not until we got to the Barn Burner that the difference
between Polarion and XeVision configurations became real dramatic to me personally.


----------



## Sway (Oct 9, 2006)

BVH said:


> Shootouts are great because you get to see a "live" beam. Sometimes the photo's tend to give a better picture than is seen in real life. Maybe because of the long time exposure. I tend to see things lit up in photos in the distance that aren't lit up when I'm there.



This is so true, as hard as we try to capture the *live beam* nothing can replace being there in person to see what the lights will actually do, it's a much different setting. Too many variables enter, the camera, exposure levels and height of the light from the ground plays a *big* part as to how the beam shot turns out with really bright lights.

I would like to suggest that future beam shots be made at a real reference level from the ground, like how high do we normally carry a light, guess it all depends if it's a lantern or pistol grip style but some where between 3 to 4 feet off the deck is a place to start.

Yea’ this topic needs a new thread 

Later
Kelly


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## windstrings (Oct 9, 2006)

Plus if you look at this shootout,
You will notice that the Xray50 with the "AZ" bulb.. basically was pathetic....
Fortunately they normally ship with the GE bulb.

I personally think the DL bulb is the way to go...if you look very closely at the ground pattern in the distance telephoto shot, you will see the corona is brighter and wider with that bulb, while not losing anything for distance at all.
In fact, the ground pattern is the same as the BB "75Watt"... obviously not quite as bright.
Since the BB is using that same bulb, that makes sense.

But if you look at the wide angle, the GE seems to cast more light in the wide angle corona.. 
I may be imagining it, but the spill of the DL seems a bit brighter too.

Hitting the DL50 With only 50W will give it about 50% more life over the 35W GE bulb "getting hit with 50W" over its lifetime.

The only catch is, those bulbs cost more "About X3" and are harder to get.

The physical characteristics "size of arc etc." of the DL50 appear to cause a slightly different "spray" of light in the reflector.

So cost wise alone for the bulb, its not efficient to buy the DL50, since you could buy almost 3 of the GE's for the same price and have spares, but if your considering upgrading later to 75 watts, then all you have to add is the ballast.

So, if you like the wide angle pattern the Polarion throws and want to buy the Xray, the GE bulb seems to match that the best, but if you want farther throw, in my opinion, the DL is a better choice.


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## Mr Ted Bear (Oct 17, 2006)

Dan and BVH,

How about Sunday 11/05...


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## BVH (Oct 17, 2006)

Mr. TB, works for me. This will be fun!


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## mtbkndad (Oct 17, 2006)

I believe that is good for me!

mtbkndad :wave:


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## windstrings (Oct 17, 2006)

Bummer.. I wanna come! :huh:

I can hope in my Lear and be right over!


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## blahblahblah (Oct 17, 2006)

Are you guys only testing the helios and razors? Or is this a comprehensive shootout?

If you need to borrow any of the bright lights in my collection, you're welcome to them:
Helios 40w
Costco 35w
Darkbuster 24w
AE PL Shorty 24w
UFO mini-HID 10w
DiveRite flashlight 10w
Barbolight U-15 (Led that's supposed to beat 10w HID)
Some automotive HIDs that are on my garage floor (early gen 30w Trailtech and 35w ???)


PM me if you want any.


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## mtbkndad (Oct 17, 2006)

blahblahblah said:


> Are you guys only testing the helios and razors? Or is this a comprehensive shootout?
> 
> If you need to borrow any of the bright lights in my collection, you're welcome to them:
> Helios 40w
> ...



The main thing people have been asking for is Polarion original model to be compared with the Helios. We will see what Mr. Ted Bear pulls out of spotlight heaven, I mean his garage  . I personally want to get another pick of the Ken 4, this time with a full charge. 

Take Care,
mtbnkdad :wave:


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## windstrings (Oct 17, 2006)

mtbkndad said:


> The main thing people have been asking for is Polarion original model to be compared with the Helios. We will see what Mr. Ted Bear pulls out of spotlight heaven, I mean his garage  . I personally want to get another pick of the Ken 4, this time with a full charge.
> 
> Take Care,
> mtbnkdad :wave:



I can't speak for anybody else, but if I was asking that.... it would be because I first want to know if the Helios really performs better, but I was be stuggleing with the Xeray 50w also since that the main competion with the older Polarion... at least that I know about.

But that may not be your objective.


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## FILA BRAZILIA (Oct 17, 2006)

Me neither, windstrings, but my guess is there are quite a few people out there who want to know the EXACT difference in performance between the 2 polarion lights. To be honest- we have already seen side-by-side beamshots of all the others, haven`t we? But we have NOT (yet) seen beamshots of the 2 Polarion lights, at the same location, to compare. 
Mtbkndad, BVH and T. Bear- looking forward to your field test. Really appreciate.


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## LuxLuthor (Oct 17, 2006)

mtbkndad said:


> Waion's problem light was WAY after the shootouts that I know of that were posted on this forum.
> 
> When Rhino90 introduced the Rayzorbeam and Rayzorlite on this forum HUGE claims were made that were never delivered upon.
> Statements like-
> ...



OMG, I can't believe I just read all 15 pages of that thread...expecting, then being crushed, over and over. That was painful....but I'm left totally unfulfilled. Did they get the NATA contract and crush the MaxaBeam as was predicted on page 1? Did they finally get the proper courier, customs, duty issues all worked out without more explosive gamma microwaves obliterating their contents? Was there ever a sucessful group buy? 

That really was an amazing sequence of claims, trashing of competitors lights, questioning of websites & corporations, many many updates & failures to read about. I hope it all had a happy ending somehow. I would have given up on the whole project on about page 10, and went back to water sterilization & beauty products.

It would be nice to also see the XeVision 50W & 75W BB in this shootout.


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## BVH (Oct 17, 2006)

If I remember correctly, after the Razor's less than stellar performance in Shootout 3 A and/or B and/or C, most of the chatter about them faded away. I think the group buy for the older style Polarion which became a group buy for the Eagleye started up after shootout 3D and I think it diverted attention from the Razors. Once in a while I saw something about the Razors but I never learned if they fixed all their issues. But I AM getting old and maybe my memory is fading?


----------



## windstrings (Oct 17, 2006)

BVH said:


> If I remember correctly, after the Razor's less than stellar performance in Shootout 3 A and/or B and/or C, most of the chatter about them faded away. I think the group buy for the older style Polarion which became a group buy for the Eagleye started up after shootout 3D and I think it diverted attention from the Razors. Once in a while I saw something about the Razors but I never learned if they fixed all their issues. But I AM getting old and maybe my memory is fading?



Seems I remember a discussion you or someone had with Lips and that issue was brought up.. I don't recall if anyone ever gave a rebuttal.

I expressed the frustration I had in even finding a price on their web page and a few other issues, but I never saw a resolution.


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## BVH (Oct 18, 2006)

Windstrings, I'm afraid you can't bring you Lear over because I have a 2" x 4" piece of your windshield sitting on my desk, sorry.


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## windstrings (Oct 18, 2006)

FILA BRAZILIA said:


> Me neither, windstrings, but my guess is there are quite a few people out there who want to know the EXACT difference in performance between the 2 polarion lights. To be honest- we have already seen side-by-side beamshots of all the others, haven`t we? But we have NOT (yet) seen beamshots of the 2 Polarion lights, at the same location, to compare.
> Mtbkndad, BVH and T. Bear- looking forward to your field test. Really appreciate.



Yes, but the Xray 50w will most likely outperform the Helios.. if it does not, it will be merits for the Helios since it uses 5 less watts output.
And I'm feel quite sure the 75W BB will.

but like you said this may be simply for the purpose of comparing the two, rather than with the competition.


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## cy (Oct 18, 2006)

best light for under $1,000 is ...... Mclux ti PD


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## windstrings (Oct 18, 2006)

cy said:


> best light for under $1,000 is ...... Mclux ti PD



Definately a beauty for a pea shooter!.....A nice peice of Machine work!

But the lights we have been comparing here will not fit on your keychain and cast thier beam thousands of feet!

This looks like a collectors item since there was a short run made.

I didn't see any runtime, beamshots, or lumen charts of this little bugger....
Being 560.00, I wonder how it stacks against the 45.00 P1?

But these little guys are LED's and belong elsewhere than the HID forum.

Its funny, because we have been weighing the 1600.00 Polarion Helios which is the king daddy for beauty and looks.... but it appears the Mclux ti PD is "all" about looks since they don't seem to advertize any of the specs?


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## cy (Oct 18, 2006)

hey... poster didn't state best HID light  

lucked out and participated in a HID shootout at shotshow this year. generously hosted of course by Mr. TB. 

amazing how well cosco HID did compared to the big guns...


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## windstrings (Oct 18, 2006)

cy said:


> hey... poster didn't state best HID light
> 
> lucked out and participated in a HID shootout at shotshow this year. generously hosted of course by Mr. TB.
> 
> amazing how well cosco HID did compared to the big guns...



yep, you can spend a ton of money trying to fight physics dealing with imperfect properties of our current technology in reflectors.... a large reflector does gives an edge.... but in a perfect world... we all know size doesn't matter!


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## BVH (Oct 18, 2006)

Quote by Windstrings - "Yes, but the Xray 50w will most likely outperform the Helios"

I say "Bunk"  :nana: The old Polarion at a minimum, performed equally with the 50 watt and, in my humble opinion, better than the 50 Watt in Shootout 3D. With 5 more Watts and the improved reflector, I'm sure it will out shine the 50 Watt. :nana:


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## windstrings (Oct 18, 2006)

BVH said:


> Quote by Windstrings - "Yes, but the Xray 50w will most likely outperform the Helios"
> 
> I say "Bunk"  :nana: The old Polarion at a minimum, performed equally with the 50 watt and, in my humble opinion, better than the 50 Watt in Shootout 3D. With 5 more Watts and the improved reflector, I'm sure it will out shine the 50 Watt. :nana:



Well if it does, it will sure make someone feel better about spending 700.00 more dollars! I do admit the polarion does a nice job considering their reflector is actually smaller.

I think if your comparing the regular polarion with the 50W GE bulb and only considering wide corona angle on the ground, I somewhat agree, however the Xeray GE bulb had a "hotter" center to that corona and the tree was brighter too as well as background objects, but if your looking at the DL50 bulb and looking at distance, I totally disagree...the brightness of the tree is notically with Xeray than the polarion.... but I only have the photos to go by.. I wasn't there.

You guys carry alot of weight when you do those shootouts.... People buy based on what they show. 
If you saw different in person, I'm not getting the benifit of that.

I guess you'll have to prove it.. side by side... no cheating! :laughing:


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## LuxLuthor (Oct 18, 2006)

At best, the Helios and XeVision 50W will be very similar as it was in the shootout with the old Polarion, but does the Helios have a focus zoom beam feature? And how about run times & indicator lights? For that much extra money, it should trounce the Xevision, and have better (and more) features. Can you easily take it apart and replace parts? Oh yeah, can the Helios be upgraded to a Barn Burner? Careful how we promote various lights. There are many pro's and con's, and if a light is twice what I bought my 50W XeVision, it better be twice as good in most areas.


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## windstrings (Oct 18, 2006)

BVH said:


> Quote by Windstrings - "Yes, but the Xray 50w will most likely outperform the Helios"
> 
> I say "Bunk"  :nana: The old Polarion at a minimum, performed equally with the 50 watt and, in my humble opinion, better than the 50 Watt in Shootout 3D. With 5 more Watts and the improved reflector, I'm sure it will out shine the 50 Watt. :nana:



Ok... BVH, Ill comprimise..... I'll bet you my lear jet against your Helios if I'm wrong!

You already have part of it as a downpayment on your desk!


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## windstrings (Oct 18, 2006)

deleted.. wrong post


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## cmacclel (Oct 18, 2006)

Yes the Polarion / Helios shootout should be a good match. XeVision 50 watter should be no competition. I have had each light in hand side by side and there was NO COMPARISON The XeVision was much brighter as it should be it has 15 watts more power.

I have a Helios coming in Friday and will post my obervation then 


Mac


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## BVH (Oct 18, 2006)

I'm glad to see others posting smilies because bantering back and forth in this thread is totally in fun. In my work environment, I have seen so many email exchanges turn sour and feelings get hurt because it is sometimes difficult to get a sense of the tone of the exchange - be it humorous, neutral or negative and getting worse with each email. All of my assertions, opinions, comments are strictly my own and may or may not represent reality. And most, if not every post has a lot of humor in it. Maybe its obvious, maybe its not.

OK, got that out of the way. Windstrings, i completely understand your statement that people can base their buying decisions on what the "experts" say in these threads. I, too, based my original purchase of the old style Polarion on the Shootout 3 thread. I bought it before I attended the "D" phase. I was lucky enough to be able to validate that decision (in my opinion) because I was able to attend the last phase of it (when I picked up my light) and see it and others in action.

For me, form factor is every bit as important as performance when I'm considering these high-end lights. In the old Polarion decision, I liked the looks of it more than the Xeray. They both put out tons of light so I bought the one i thought looked better. With the Helios, I love its looks, the fact that it is waterproof to 165 ft and the very usable and wide hotspot/corona transition. It seems they have taken some of the lumens of the extreme bright hot spot (which to me, is not that usable in any high perf. HID) and spread it out over the corona, making it brighter than coronas of the other comparable lights.

Also remember, I was lucky enough to be in on the GB so the cost difference you cite is not the difference I experienced and I don't discount the fact that some of my opinions and comments are based on that. I was just lucky. I don't know if I would make the same decision if i had to pay retail. I think I would.

I only hope that someone comes forth with an Xeray 50 Watter and BB. I don't have either, I don't think Daniel does either. Not sure about Mr. TB.

As for betting my Helios against an Xeray 50 Watter, if I lose, can I give you back the segment of your windshield instead? At least then, you could fly it again.

Mac, I'll be most interested to hear your thoughts when you have both in-hand.


----------



## windstrings (Oct 18, 2006)

I must admit, if I thought I could get away with it.. I would love to own the beautiful and "quite talented" Helios!
But she's too expensive for me..... I can only afford cheap women!

But mine can heat up the night along with the best of them!

I would loan you mine if you were close, or I would just show up... unless someone want to mail you one as a loaner?

Dan may be up for the task if you ask?


----------



## cmacclel (Oct 18, 2006)

I myself had to make the XeVision vs Polarion decision and I liked the XeRay looks better as the Polarion was a little to futuristic looking for me with the 2-tone Silver / Black. Also I found the handle of the Polarion to be uncomfortable. I do wish the XeVision was waterproof  There Both EXCELLENT lights and anyone would be happy with either. Also I may have a Crocodile coming which has a newer 40 watt ballast and upgraded reflector.



Mac


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## BVH (Oct 18, 2006)

Mac, what color temp will the lamp be on the Croc?

I wish all the lamps in these lights had the Amondotech Illuminator color of 4300K. It is cooler than the Costco (which I would guess is at about 5000K) but not quite like an incandescent. Its perfect for me. The Polarions are that color until about 5 seconds before full on. Then they settle down to I'd guess around 3500K to 3800K ? But the lower temps give more lumens for a given number of Watts so that is the trade-off.


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## cmacclel (Oct 18, 2006)

The Crocodile color temp is listed at 6000k. The Nice thing about the Croc is the fact the brightness is adjustable from 2000 lumens to 3400 lumens. And it's about half the price of the Helios 


Mac




BVH said:


> Mac, what color temp will the lamp be on the Croc?
> 
> I wish all the lamps in these lights had the Amondotech Illuminator color of 4300K. It is cooler than the Costco (which I would guess is at about 5000K) but not quite like an incandescent. Its perfect for me. The Polarions are that color until about 5 seconds before full on. Then they settle down to I'd guess around 3500K to 3800K ? But the lower temps give more lumens for a given number of Watts so that is the trade-off.


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## windstrings (Oct 18, 2006)

cmacclel said:


> Also I may have a Crocodile coming which has a newer 40 watt ballast and upgraded reflector.
> Mac



Croc eh?.. do you have a link to this.. or is it not for sale anymore?

I want to see what you like about it for 800.00 since you already have an Xeray.


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## mtbkndad (Oct 19, 2006)

Mac,

I am glad I am not the only person that found the old model Polarion handle uncomfortable. I also did not like how front heavy it felt. The Helios has a very comfortable handle and feels much more balanced when holding it by the handle then the original Polarion.

BVH,
You are close about the Illuminator color temp, it is 4200K.
I also really like the color temp of the Illuminator for use outdoors.
It just seems to be the right color to make natural outdoor objects really show up.

Regarding the upcoming Photo Shoot,
I really think the Helios and XeRay beams are quite different and more of an apple vs oranges type comparison. Even at the same wattage the throw, the size of the hotspots, the size and shape of the corona's would still be different. What I do know is that it will be a fun evening.

Take Care,
mtbkndad :wave:


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## Lips (Oct 19, 2006)

*RayzorLite = 4.14 lbs* 

*RayzorBeam = 4.58 lbs* 

*Xeray = 5.62 lbs*

*Helios = 3.90 lbs* (per BVH)
(Handle Version)


Click photos to expand them

RayzorLite






RayzorBeam






Xeray






Cheers


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## BVH (Oct 19, 2006)

Helios, about 3.9 lbs or 3 lbs, 15 oz (handle version)

It definitely will be a fun evening.


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## larryk (Oct 19, 2006)

windstrings said:


> Croc eh?.. do you have a link to this.. or is it not for sale anymore?
> 
> I want to see what you like about it for 800.00 since you already have an Xeray.



Here'a a link,

http://www.pts-flashlights.com/products/product.aspx?pid=1-17-6026


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## LuxLuthor (Oct 19, 2006)

BVH said:


> I'm glad to see others posting smilies because bantering back and forth in this thread is totally in fun. In my work environment, I have seen so many email exchanges turn sour and feelings get hurt because it is sometimes difficult to get a sense of the tone of the exchange - be it humorous, neutral or negative and getting worse with each email. All of my assertions, opinions, comments are strictly my own and may or may not represent reality. And most, if not every post has a lot of humor in it. Maybe its obvious, maybe its not.



Well said!!! It's also pretty obvious that once any of us buys or plans to buy (or even promote) a particular one...our objectivity pretty much goes out the window. Several of us are now "married" to the XeRay, and probably sing her praises a bit more than we should.

I think the Helios is probably the most aesthetically appealing and well designed light...but I honestly think it has priced itself out of the market with its competitors. This seems to be the chief complaint on these forums about it. 

I don't know what the Helios fixed costs are but IMHO, they may need to rethink their pricing structure to generate profit from higher volume sales at a cheaper price. Again, IMHO, I just don't feel that the Helios is unique enough, or notably superior in its functionality to separate it from the lower priced competing HID lights. 

Examples of radical differences in functionality are the MaxaBeam with greater throw, & the BarnBurner with its overall output/throw...both of which have unique lighting functionality justifying a higher price.


----------



## mtbkndad (Oct 19, 2006)

As I have mentioned before, Helios is not made to compete with the under $1,000 offerings. It has much more going for it then just light output. I really do not think Polarion is too concerned with whether most CPF members can get one  .
I agree that many activities do not require it's VERY compact size, underwater capabilities, robust Al 6061 T6 body and bezel, and the other unique features. For those activities there are cheaper lights available which are high quality products in their own right. As a consumer I recognize the Helios will primarly be marketed to government agencies. That itself will require a specific pricing structure. I do not think a government agency purchasing 100 Helios searchlights will be paying the $1595 for a single light price. I also do not believe an agency buying 1000 will pay the same price as the agency that bought 100. 

The Helios is more capable and less expensive to run then the Surefire Beast at around Half the price. I feel it is priced VERY WELL for it's intended market. The Last time I could find a price on the REVA RI 2200 it was in the $2,000-$3,000 range and it is a 24 watt light.

In summary, the average recreational user of HID products will certainly find lights that will suit their needs at a much lower price then the Helios. Military, law enforcement, and rescue agencies will be very pleased with it's price and feature set and I think this light will be quite successful in those arenas. I have a very specific intended purpose for mine when I finally get it and it will be worth the price to me when that time comes.

Take Care,
mtbkndad :wave:


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## LuxLuthor (Oct 19, 2006)

Yeah, all great points. I fell into the trap of it being discussed and promoted here...and didn't think most of us were military buyers...so my issues are mainly speaking about CPF members. For the same reason, I would never even think about buying a SF Beast.


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## mtbkndad (Oct 19, 2006)

LuxLuthor,

I don't mean to change the subject, but I have been meaning to tell you the following for some time.
I have to say my wife, kids, friends, etc. all agree that your avatar is one of the cutest baby pictures we have ever seen. Everybody I have shown it to I have first said, "Do you want to see one of the cutest baby pictures I have ever seen?". Then they say sure, when they see it they bust up laughing and say I am right that is truly one of the cutest baby pictures they have seen too. 

Now for anybody that will say this post does not pertain to this thread.
Helios, XeRay, AI, Costco/Harbor Freight, Razyobeams & Razyorlites, Polarion (orignial), X990's, etc. all have their pros and cons. 
  

Take Care,
mtbkndad :wave:


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## windstrings (Oct 19, 2006)

larryk said:


> Here'a a link,
> 
> http://www.pts-flashlights.com/products/product.aspx?pid=1-17-6026



I Can't decide if it looks more like the club of Thor, or one of those hand gernades you see in the movies.


----------



## windstrings (Oct 19, 2006)

mtbkndad said:


> LuxLuthor,
> 
> I don't mean to change the subject, but I have been meaning to tell you the following for some time.
> I have to say my wife, kids, friends, etc. all agree that your avatar is one of the cutest baby pictures we have ever seen. Everybody I have shown it to I have first said, "Do you want to see one of the cutest baby pictures I have ever seen?". Then they say sure, when they see it they bust up laughing and say I am right that is truly one of the cutest baby pictures they have seen too.



*Show her my baby picture in my avatar.. I bet she'll think its cuter! :naughty:*

Don't worry about the joking around.. I've always enjoyed being the center of attention... thats why it was an honest real challenge for me to go one week without being sent to the principles office for swats.

I was never mean or anything.. just always in trouble.


----------



## windstrings (Oct 19, 2006)

mtbkndad said:


> In summary, the average recreational user of HID products will certainly find lights that will suit their needs at a much lower price then the Helios. Military, law enforcement, and rescue agencies will be very pleased with it's price and feature set and I think this light will be quite successful in those arenas. I have a very specific intended purpose for mine when I finally get it and it will be worth the price to me when that time comes.
> Take Care,
> mtbkndad :wave:



The market always tells the real story.. in spite of our opinions... if they do well in those markets... I too wouldn't lower my price.. it would only cut my throat....

They may not be able to handle the sheer numbers of orders that my open up with a lower price anyway.


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## MorpheusT1 (Oct 19, 2006)

Hi guys,



This may be a peashooter VS the lights you are talking about.
But howcome the Microfire K2000R arent mentioned at all in this thread.
I think the price of it is very appealing and size too.
Im not sure about the output of it but i sure would like to see it in a upcoming shootout.



Regards,
Benny


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## BVH (Oct 19, 2006)

I haven't mentioned it because I got the impression that Windstrings was looking at 35 Watt lights to buy.

I'd buy a K2000R in an instant if it came with a 5000 Kelvin or less lamp. I just can't get into the violet/blue >5000 Kelvin temp lamps. I really wish it did!


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## windstrings (Oct 19, 2006)

BVH said:


> I haven't mentioned it because I got the impression that Windstrings was looking at 35 Watt lights to buy.



Well got my first taste of HID with the X990 and its 399.00
By all records, it does quite well for the money and it blows away the 24 watters... like the AE 24 According the the owner of this site. So I never even considered a 24 watt.

Then I got my eyes on the Xeray and the older Polarion... not knowing what else was out there and all the considerations.. I started this thread.

So Its been an unspoken understanding that 24 watters were not in consideration since we have 1000.00 to get the best light with.


----------



## NAW (Oct 20, 2006)

mtbkndad said:


> Regarding the upcoming Photo Shoot,


 
Not entireley related to this thread but you guys will post pics of the shootout in a different thread right?


----------



## mtbkndad (Oct 20, 2006)

Yes, I think the pics will definitely need their own thread.

Take Care,
mtbkndad :wave:


----------



## NAW (Oct 20, 2006)

mtbkndad said:


> Yes, I think the pics will definitely need their own thread.
> 
> Take Care,
> mtbkndad :wave:


 
:buddies: :buddies: 

Sounds great. As the owner of the 10, 15 MCP spotlight, AE 24W HID, and soon to get Rayzorlite, its going to be interesting to see how my lights will compare to the new competition out there. 

Although I know none of my lights are going to compare to the big boys it would be nice to see how they stack up against them.


----------



## LuxLuthor (Oct 20, 2006)

mtbkndad said:


> LuxLuthor,
> 
> I don't mean to change the subject, but I have been meaning to tell you the following for some time.
> I have to say my wife, kids, friends, etc. all agree that your avatar is one of the cutest baby pictures we have ever seen. Everybody I have shown it to I have first said, "Do you want to see one of the cutest baby pictures I have ever seen?". Then they say sure, when they see it they bust up laughing and say I am right that is truly one of the cutest baby pictures they have seen too.



My inner child thanks you! :laughing:


----------



## cmacclel (Oct 20, 2006)

I received my Helios and am impressed  more on that later!


MAc


----------



## ChrisDallas (Oct 20, 2006)

Here's a Barn Burner for sale if interested

https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/137782


----------



## windstrings (Oct 21, 2006)

Humm...I guess that answered the main question of this thread!


----------



## FILA BRAZILIA (Oct 21, 2006)

Yeah!


----------



## LuxLuthor (Oct 21, 2006)

ChrisDallas said:


> Here's a Barn Burner for sale if interested
> 
> https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/137782



SOLD !


----------



## FILA BRAZILIA (Oct 21, 2006)

Congratulations with your new light LuxLuthor, and for gods` sake- keep it away from children!!


----------



## BVH (Oct 21, 2006)

Hey Mac, we're waiting for your thoughts on your new Helios?


----------



## windstrings (Oct 21, 2006)

LuxLuthor said:


> SOLD !



Let us all know how fast you can burn paper... "as if you're actually gonna tell the truth!" :laughing: :laughing:


----------



## LuxLuthor (Oct 21, 2006)

I had you going with the 50W model. Actually, I didn't ever think it was possible with anything but a laser, so have not even tried with any lights. My luck, I would catch the paper on fire, panic, and burn the whole house down! 

:candle::huh:


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## windstrings (Oct 21, 2006)

LuxLuthor said:


> I had you going with the 50W model. Actually, I didn't ever think it was possible with anything but a laser, so have not even tried with any lights. My luck, I would catch the paper on fire, panic, and burn the whole house down!
> 
> :candle::huh:



I used to be a fireman once upon a time... I am the most dangerous because I don't fear it as much... but I did try it outside the first time.

I wouldn't be surprised if 50% more power would do the trick.. I can smoke paper in 5 to 10 seconds.. it just won't ignite... at least not yet.. 
I haven't tried dried leaves yet...

I wonder if cat hair will ignite!..... Humm!!!! :devil::devil:


----------



## BVH (Oct 21, 2006)

Naughty, Naughty, Windstrings. Poor kitty!


----------



## windstrings (Oct 21, 2006)

BVH said:


> Naughty, Naughty, Windstrings. Poor kitty!



Sorry.. the devil made me think of that!... I would never really want to fry a poor little kitty.... it would break my heart to see it flying across the neighbors yard catching thier yard on fire... I would have nightmares thinking of how that poor cat would be disturbed forever....

Please forgive me...... 

Maybe I'll just pick on thier dog instead! 

No but seriously folks.... I was walking down the street the other day with my Xeray 50W and came by this area where there are 3 dogs that are always a complete noisy menace and act like they want to eat the fence to get at you.

So I just turned on my little Xeray and shined it at them and they shut right up and turned the other way and wouldn't look towards me at all... nothing like the art of intimidation!


----------



## cmacclel (Oct 22, 2006)

The Big Boys  More later


----------



## BVH (Oct 22, 2006)

Oh, what a teaser! More, please! What do you think of the Helios's performance?


----------



## LuxLuthor (Oct 22, 2006)

Great pix, MAC.....all beauties. Is that 3rd one a MaxaBeam ? That Helios really does stand out as a sleek supermodel on the runway.

This is the best pix on your website.

http://public.fotki.com/cmacclel/lights-1/hid/big_little2.html


----------



## windstrings (Oct 23, 2006)

Maybe Lux will be easier to live with now that he has "two" Xerays!... one of which is the BB.... am I jealous?... well maybe.....


----------



## cmacclel (Oct 23, 2006)

LuxLuthor said:


> Great pix, MAC.....all beauties. Is that 3rd one a MaxaBeam ? That Helios really does stand out as a sleek supermodel on the runway.
> 
> This is the best pix on your website.
> 
> http://public.fotki.com/cmacclel/lights-1/hid/big_little2.html




The Third light is the SuperNova which is a MaxaBeam clone. Boy does it throw!

Mac


----------



## windstrings (Oct 23, 2006)

cmacclel said:


> The Third light is the SuperNova which is a MaxaBeam clone. Boy does it throw!
> 
> Mac



You have a link that shows pricing on the Supernova?
I didn't have any google success.


----------



## cmacclel (Oct 23, 2006)

windstrings said:


> You have a link that shows pricing on the Supernova?
> I didn't have any google success.




I don't think they are available anymore. A forum member setup a group buy. If you do a search you should be able to find the thread. His name was SolomonMk2 I believe.

Mac


----------



## LuxLuthor (Oct 23, 2006)

windstrings said:


> Maybe Lux will be easier to live with now that he has "two" Xerays!... one of which is the BB....



You sound like we are married or something! :huh:


----------



## windstrings (Oct 23, 2006)

cmacclel said:


> I don't think they are available anymore. A forum member setup a group buy. If you do a search you should be able to find the thread. His name was SolomonMk2 I believe.
> 
> Mac



thanks..found a couple of links here and here

The throw is indeed quite amazing.. no spill, no corona... just a laser type focus. With that tight of a focus and no spill or corona.. it would be hard to find someone or use in many applications.
Of course if you found them.. they would know they were found!

Here is a mini spec sheet:
Comparing the official specs of the Maxabeam and the Supernova:
Maxabeam Supernova
Beam angle: (1°/2°)-40° 1.5°-20°
Lamp: 75w XSA 75w XSA
Colour Temperature: 6000K 6000K
Battery Chemistry: NiCd NiMH
Battery Capacity: 7Ah? 8Ah
Battery Configuration: 10 x F cells 10 x D cells
Cost: $1800US $400US

Light Length: 11" (279.4mm) 11.02" (280mm)
Light Width: 5.75" (146.05mm) 6.3" (150mm)
Light Height: 5.75" (146.05mm) 6.3" (150mm)
Light Weight: 3.2lbs (1.45kg) 3.3lbs (1.5kg)

Battery Length: 14.75" (374.65mm) 14.96" (380mm)
Battery Width: 2.25" (57.15mm) 1.97" (50mm)
Battery Height: 4.5" (114.3mm) 3.15" (80mm)
Battery Weight: 5.4lbs (2.5kg) 5.06lbs (2.3kg)


----------



## cmacclel (Oct 23, 2006)

The light has a knob on the side which moves the lamp up and down for Flood and a Spot beam. The Flood does have a black hole in the center but it's still a flood beam 

Mac


----------



## LuxLuthor (Oct 23, 2006)

Here ya go...knock yourself out importing a slew of them!


----------



## windstrings (Oct 23, 2006)

LuxLuthor said:


> Here ya go...knock yourself out importing a slew of them!



That one has a LiIon battery.
Output: 45~80W
Power: 10.8V 10AH li-ion battery
Irradiating angle: 1.5~20
Color Temp: 6000K

Don't like the color temp though.


----------



## larryk (Oct 23, 2006)

Looks like they have 2 available, one with a Li-Ion 10.8V 10AH pack that fits on the light and if you scroll down they show one with a 12V 8Ah Ni-MH belt pack.


----------



## windstrings (Oct 23, 2006)

Looks like they don't say price and they only deal with dealers maybe.

I don't know how much runtime that would be...because I don't know all the efficiency losses, but 10AH at 8 amp draw may be around 70 min?


----------



## larryk (Oct 23, 2006)

Min Order, 50 sets. Who wants to start a group buy ?


----------



## Lips (Oct 23, 2006)

I'm in Larry.


----------



## windstrings (Oct 23, 2006)

Did you get a price?


----------



## LuxLuthor (Oct 23, 2006)

LOL...so this is how it all starts then.


----------



## windstrings (Oct 23, 2006)

So anyone care to give a quick education of what the deal is with "short Arc"?

I understand they are a higher blue frequency "6000K" and they run pretty hot eh?

Why is the throw so far?.. reflector? or properties of the short arc light?

I got some of the skinny here, but why would I want one of these verses the HID lamps?


----------



## lasercrazy (Oct 23, 2006)

The xsa bulbs are instant on and have a really tiny arc gap, that's why they can throw very far. I had a SN and sold it, it's cool but other than that not very useful.


----------



## windstrings (Oct 23, 2006)

The instant on stobe abilities are nice...

Did you find it was so dark everywhere except the actual beam that it was hard to find things?

What do you mean it wasn't very useful?


----------



## BVH (Oct 23, 2006)

I would think kind of like using a high-powered laser pointer to find your way in the dark. Not too useful.


----------



## windstrings (Oct 23, 2006)

I agree, but why aren't they making them with the typical spill/corona type beams too?

Why have they not been competition for the HID's?

Whats holding them back?.. heat..... there is something I'm missing here.

With instant on, I could see them being more desirable than the HID's, but will the HID's longer arcs do things the short arc won't?


----------



## cmacclel (Oct 23, 2006)

The cheapest farthest throwing light in existance being called "Not very usefull"  If you want a flood beam your correct 


Mac


----------



## Lips (Oct 23, 2006)

larryk said:


> Min Order, 50 sets. Who wants to start a group buy ?





I sent *Tacticalsupply.com* a PM with Lux's link to see if he would be interested in checking price on 50 units and handling a group buy for the SuperNova...


----------



## Sway (Oct 23, 2006)

The MaxaBeam and Supenova will open up into somewhat of a flood beam but it's not very bright, think of a high powered flashlight in the 700 lumen range (I could be off a little so don't hang me) but that's about what you get when you open up the focus for flood, they are not very bright lights but the light source is very small in intense.

The small arc gap lends to throw much better than flood/corona/spill than the larger automotive type HID's and the reflector size and design plays a big part.

You can make a HID throw like a 70W short arc but it takes a much larger reflector.

Hope this helps 

Later
Kelly



windstrings said:


> I agree, but why aren't they making them with the typical spill/corona type beams too?
> 
> Why have they not been competition for the HID's?
> 
> ...


----------



## BVH (Oct 23, 2006)

Oh heck, I would consider buying a Super Nova if the GB price was reasonable.


----------



## windstrings (Oct 23, 2006)

Sway said:


> Hope this helps
> 
> Kelly



yea.. it does help .. thanks.. sounds like the size of the arc has alot to do with what latitude you have on the throw.

So far, the main thing I like about it is the instant on....

It would be cool to have the laser type beam too.. but not as my main light.

Its nice to see they moved up into the modern age of LiIon.

Humm.. did we get a price yet.. sounds like its gonna take 50 buyers to pull this off?


----------



## lasercrazy (Oct 23, 2006)

cmacclel said:


> The cheapest farthest throwing light in existance being called "Not very usefull"  If you want a flood beam your correct
> 
> 
> Mac


 To each his own.  I found the sn not very useful where I live. It does indeed throw very far buts it's not very bright and the wide beam on mine was horrible.


----------



## LuxLuthor (Oct 23, 2006)

Just for the heck of it, I filled out their order inquiry form, and already got a reply back:



> Thank you for your enquiry!
> 
> The FOB Shanghai unit price of our handheld searchlight is USD450.00 with Ni-Mh belt battery and USD500.00 with Li-ion battery with a minimum order of 50 units. For samples, it's USD500.00 and USD600.00 with freight collect.
> 
> ...


 
So it almost sounds like you could get a sample unit of one for those prices.


----------



## Sway (Oct 24, 2006)

windstrings said:


> yea.. it does help .. thanks.. sounds like the size of the arc has alot to do with what latitude you have on the throw.



I think you have it 

Look at it this way, the Short Arcs we are talking about have a very small arc gap length something in the range of 0.7mm where the HID is like 4.2mm (again I’m grabbing numbers out of the air but it’s close).

The Short Arc only hits a very small part of the reflector so it’s much easier to focus into a very tight beam but it’s not much good for flood. HID with it much longer arc gap length hits a larger area of the reflector wall, as it goes up the reflector wall the diameter increases so it has more area to cover spreading it’s self out making it less brighter the farther up it goes. 

Kind of like spreading butter all over your toast or putting in one corner to melt  

Later
Kelly


----------



## rufusdufus (Oct 24, 2006)

ChrisDallas tried a group buy 2 months back.

https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/128509&highlight=supernova


----------



## ianb (Oct 24, 2006)

But that Groupbuy didn't seem to go anywhere, if you can just get a sample sent at the prices quoted above by LuxLuthor its not a great increase over a single unit 
I'll have to save up 

Ian


----------



## Lips (Oct 24, 2006)

LuxLuthor said:


> Just for the heck of it, I filled out their order inquiry form, and already got a reply back:
> 
> USD $450 and USD $500 with Li0ion min 50 units Sample $600 + Freight
> 
> So it almost sounds like you could get a sample unit of one for those prices.





Hard to believe they would ship everyone a sample unit without some kind of commitment or dealer proof…


Solomons group buy was for $530. He must have had a better source than the one above to offer for that price...


50 units may be too large of a number. Maybe price and minimum quantities are negotiable to move inventory...


.


----------



## windstrings (Oct 24, 2006)

Sway said:


> I think you have it
> 
> Look at it this way, the Short Arcs we are talking about have a very small arc gap length something in the range of 0.7mm where the HID is like 4.2mm (again I’m grabbing numbers out of the air but it’s close).
> 
> ...



Well guys thanks for your honesty... seems the farthur you can get the arc to jump, the more light you will get for a given amount of energy, wattage, or whatever.

To exaggerate the idea. I"m sure a lightening bolt jumping 6 feet would not light up the world the same as one that jumps 6 miles.
I know with lightening we are dealing with voltage differences etc but the idea is the same.

One technology in a tube bathed with certain gases can jump X distance while another with the same voltage and current cannot.

Must be why it can be "instant on" too.. it doesn't take much to make it arc.. other than some serious volts. 
The HID's need serious volts and time for the gases to do thier thing to get that long of an arc. So initially they get hit with a level of volts that would burn up the bulb if sustained, but quickly drops down once the gases are excited and heated.

I may not have it exact, but at least I have an idea now......


----------



## lasercrazy (Oct 24, 2006)

Lips said:


> Hard to believe they would ship everyone a sample unit without some kind of commitment or dealer proof…
> 
> 
> Solomons group buy was for $530. He must have had a better source than the one above to offer for that price...
> ...


 This is with the li-ion pack, solomon's gb had the nimh pack.


----------



## LuxLuthor (Oct 24, 2006)

My email gave their prices for both lights...in quantity of 50 and for a sample. Hard to know how much due diligence they would do to verify qualifications for a "dealer sample." 

I'm not really interested in this light, but just spent a couple minutes using google, and filling out their form price request for the heck of it.

I now have some serious barnburner testing to enjoy.


----------



## windstrings (Oct 24, 2006)

LuxLuthor said:


> My email gave their prices for both lights...in quantity of 50 and for a sample. Hard to know how much due diligence they would do to verify qualifications for a "dealer sample."
> 
> I'm not really interested in this light, but just spent a couple minutes using google, and filling out their form price request for the heck of it.
> 
> I now have some serious barnburner testing to enjoy.



Burnin down the house!..... lets see if you can light up the funny's!


----------



## BVH (Oct 24, 2006)

Hey Mac, what's your thoughts on the performance of the Helios?


----------



## cmacclel (Oct 24, 2006)

BVH said:


> Hey Mac, what's your thoughts on the performance of the Helios?



The Performance is great for a light of it's size. Though I'm getting sick of everyone asking me if it's a THERMOS! I say ya a $1500 Thermos 

The Helios hotspot is pretty much as bright as the XeRay 50 watt model though the XeRay has more flood and the hotspot is 10x the size.

One thing I noticed about the Helios is the bulb seems to be offset in the reflector reem. Is yours centered?

I will put together a beam shot package as soon as the Croc arrives 

Mac


----------



## LuxLuthor (Oct 25, 2006)

Well, I just had a blast testing the 50W XeRay vs. the Barn Burner, and all I can say is I had no idea how much more powerful this BB is !!! 

I went down to the beach and was shining it out in the ocean at this 3 story Lighthouse that is 1.9 miles from my location, and I could easily see it with the Barn Burner, but not at all with the 50W. I then was shining it out at Fisher's Island which is about 6 miles away, and I caught someone's attention who started shining some other weak spotlight back right at me...so I thought I better close down my testing.

The beamshots on a 50 foot white building is not a big difference, except the center hotspot is dramatically brighter with the BB. Once you get to 100+ feet, there is a huge difference between the two.

I wish I knew how to take beamshot photographs with my Canon Powershot S45, and I could make it a lot clearer. I don't know even if I put it on a tripod what F stop and shutter time to use in the dark.


----------



## LuxLuthor (Oct 25, 2006)

cmacclel said:


> The Helios hotspot is pretty much as bright as the XeRay 50 watt model though the XeRay has more flood and the hotspot is 10x the size.
> 
> * One thing I noticed about the Helios is the bulb seems to be offset in the reflector reem. Is yours centered?*



:huh2:

*I hope you can open it up to center the bulb properly.


*.


----------



## larryk (Oct 25, 2006)

cmacclel said:


> One thing I noticed about the Helios is the bulb seems to be offset in the reflector reem. Is yours centered?
> 
> 
> 
> Mac



The bulb on my Helios is centered perfectly, there is a photo of mine on FF comparing it to the RayzorLite reflector posted by LIPS. I'm not sure how easy it is to remove the head to get at the bulb, I have not tried it on mine. Or you could just trade me your handled version for my non handled version, and I'll deal with the bulb. (Just kidding.)


----------



## BVH (Oct 25, 2006)

My lamp appears perfectly centered also.


----------



## windstrings (Oct 29, 2006)

Hey, Lux..... haven't heard from you in a while.. have you burnt off your foot "or anything else" :naughty: yet with your new BB?


----------



## LuxLuthor (Oct 29, 2006)

Actually, I took it to a city sponsored halloween party last night near the US Naval Submarine Base in Groton, CT to show some Navy friends of mine. They were all stunned at how bright it was.

Unexpectedly, there were also some U.S. Coast Guard officers _(The U.S. Coast Guard Academy is in SouthEast Connecticut)_, and they were also shocked at its performance. Two of them taling about the Coast Guard Sailing Ship: The Eagle wanted to know what brand it was, and where I got it. They had no idea such bright lights were available in such small portable packages.


----------



## windstrings (Oct 29, 2006)

Yep..theres definately a big market for lights of this quality, performance and price.... Xevision just needs to get the word out.... 

I'm sure I'll do my part! :rock:


----------



## Mr Ted Bear (Oct 30, 2006)

For Sunday, got the XeRay50, 75 and Polarion; just need the Helios


----------



## BVH (Oct 30, 2006)

I'll bring the Helios! This is gonna be fun! Thanks again, Jeff


----------



## NAW (Oct 31, 2006)

*sniff* *sniff*.

Is that Superlights Shootout number 4 that I smell?


----------



## windstrings (Oct 31, 2006)

NAW said:


> *sniff* *sniff*.
> 
> Is that Superlights Shootout number 4 that I smell?



I wanna sniff! :huh2:


----------



## Mr Ted Bear (Oct 31, 2006)

With just the Helios being the only new comer, I don't consider this a SuperShootout IV. 

Only those mentioned, not the entire collection


----------



## windstrings (Oct 31, 2006)

Mr Ted Bear said:


> For Sunday, got the XeRay50, 75 and Polarion; just need the Helios



That ought to be a good shootout... however, I expect the range may need to be increased with these big boys to really get the effect.

With normal lights, you have a few hundred yards to thier limit, wide and spot, but maybe we could get some "far" shots to see real throw limits and saturation at those great distances?

I know my 50W will shine a good 1/4 mile and still really light up the tree tops!

Maybe get some "double the normal distance" shots and go at least 300 yards?
Thats definately still within the range of "seeable distance with the naked eye" and a good distance for spotting wildlife, or terrain.

This shootout looks like about 100 - 125 yards at most.... 
and in post # 2, it looks like only about 50 yards at best.

These are the big boys... we need big boy distances!

All lights look pretty good up close.

If we were testing high powered rifles, we wouldn't do it on a 100 yard course, we would want at least 300 -400 yards.

Some competitors won't want thier light tested at such distances because maybe they were not made to illuminate that far.... but if your gonna play with and be called among the big boys.. that should be the rules. IMHO! :laughing:


----------



## larryk (Oct 31, 2006)

I beleive all of the shots Mr Ted Bear took are at 150 yards away.


----------



## windstrings (Oct 31, 2006)

larryk said:


> I beleive all of the shots Mr Ted Bear took are at 150 yards away.



Thats a good range when your doing many different lights, but when they are all big guns I think you will get better results farthur away.

Have you ever tried to test a light indoors by shining it on a wall?... its really hard to tell which really has the most punch... but go some distance and its different.

I noticed Luxluthor had to shine his out across a great distance "1.9 miles" to really see the big difference in the 50W vs. the 75watt.

I believe he said the 50W wouldn't even hit a target the 75W would.
Look here at post # 200

These lights are really too bright to be using at 150 yards.. they light up the whole world... farthur is the better acid test.


----------



## LuxLuthor (Oct 31, 2006)

windstrings said:


> I wanna sniff! :huh2:



I know something you can sniff! :lolsign: (You so teed that one up)


----------



## windstrings (Oct 31, 2006)

Maybe later.... for now, let me go throw up first!


----------



## LuxLuthor (Nov 1, 2006)

Mr Ted Bear said:


> For Sunday, got the XeRay50, 75 and Polarion; just need the Helios



 :rock:


----------



## windstrings (Nov 1, 2006)

Meanwhile back to the shootout..... I know in the past opinions have been that the need for over 150 yard shots is useless since the naked eye can't see that far!

And anyone has the right to do any kind of shootout they want, since no one is paying them to do it thier way that I know of.

But don't we see much farthur than 150 yards during the day and gather useful information?

*My arguement is that they couldn't see farthur than 150 yards because the previous lights wouldn't shine farthur without magnification assist with binoculars.

*In todays world with the entrance of more powerful lights, many who are trying to decide what to buy because they really "want" the throw cannot make an intelligent decision with only data from 150 yards.

Yes, you could buy a maxabeam and hunt for a needle in the haystack, but we need a light that has larger throw beam, corona and spill.. that meams lumens!

Lets exaggerate my point. Don't alot of lights look great at 20 feet?... but its the distance shots seperates them.


Why shouldn't lights get credit and merit for thier performance beyond 150 yards?
Maybe a Firefighter cannot appreciate it, but a coastguard patrol sure can!

I would much rather try to find a man down in the black waters of the night with a light that turns night into daylight, even with its corona and spill.
And if someone wants to use binoculars to assist... so be it, 

but if we can see someone in the ocean at 300 yards in the day, then its possible at night if the light is bright enough.

*Personal question:*
If you were the one drowning in the water... which light do you want them to have when they look for you?
One that has massive lumens to remove shadows and things they might confuse you with, or one that only you can see as your pedaling water, but they can't see you?

Why not bring attention to a light that has good spill, corona, and useable light up to 150 yards and beyond also?

If this shootout is not mean't to show that great a distances I can respect that since anyone can do any kind of shootout they want....

I'm just pointing out that we now have the need to do a shootout at greater distances now that lights have improved in order to make an intelligent discision in buying considerations.

Whether its done here or someone else is not the point.

Shootouts will not bring out any of the good points of being waterproof, comfortable to carry, compact, how well built, how good is the battery, runtime, quality of bulb, ballast or any of that.. its only about how well it functions in its light casting abilities.

No spotlight company should be threatened by a longer shootout.


----------



## cmacclel (Nov 1, 2006)

Windstrings I understand what your saying and agree about longer distances would be nice for a shootout. Mr Ted Bear already has comparable beamshots at 150 yards with pretty much all of the HID lights available. So when a new contender comes in he can go to the same location with the same camera settings and take a beamshot of a single light and be able to compare the beamshots of lights that he no longer has in his posession.

Also another point is at 150 yards you can already tell which light will throw the furthest or will have the beam you prefer.


Mac


----------



## LuxLuthor (Nov 1, 2006)

I'm just grateful that Ted Bear is doing any shootouts. If anyone wants different shootouts, they can always do them on their own....but I doubt it will be as objective & respected as Ted's. 150 yards is 1 1/2 football fields....plenty of distance. 

If I was drowing, it wouldn't matter what light was being used, since I would be underwater, and moving towards that big light in the sky. Maybe you meant if I was treading water....but I wouldn't be treading water at night.


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## mtbkndad (Nov 1, 2006)

150 yards at the park is very good because the grass field leading up to the tree will enable me to get great shots of the complete beam profiles of each light. Remember that there are obects that go hundreds of yards farther back in this same canyon that all of these lights will light up to varying degrees when pointed at the tree. 

Take Care,
mtbkndad :wave:


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## windstrings (Nov 1, 2006)

mtbkndad said:


> 150 yards at the park is very good because the grass field leading up to the tree will enable me to get great shots of the complete beam profiles of each light. Remember that there are obects that go hundreds of yards farther back in this same canyon that all of these lights will light up to varying degrees when pointed at the tree.
> 
> Take Care,
> mtbkndad :wave:



I appreciate the benifit of not having to reinvent the wheel and by using the same F stops and shutter speeds and iso settings you can actually blend these results in with the ones in the past. 

But that tree is pretty fat and it really blocks the main portion of the beam.
Often the hottest part of the beam is in the center and goes quite a bit farthur than its surrounding corona.

But like Lux said.... we can always start from scratch and do a long throw shootout somewhere.

Just a suggestion and nothing more.. 

If its a bad idea or not fit for this application I'm not gonna cry too hard.


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## mtbkndad (Nov 1, 2006)

windstrings said:


> I appreciate the benifit of not having to reinvent the wheel and by using the same F stops and shutter speeds and iso settings you can actually blend these results in with the ones in the past.
> 
> But that tree is pretty fat and it really blocks the main portion of the beam.
> Often the hottest part of the beam is in the center and goes quite a bit farthur than its surrounding corona.
> ...



You have made numerous good points.
I do not disagree and will have my laser Rangefinder at the shoot too.
I do plan on returning to the canyon BVH and I went to a couple of months ago in the relatively near future. There are numerous targets in the canyon at varying distances. Now that I have a laser Rangefinder I can give precise distances for the objects being photographed.

The beauty of the park is that there is a very large grass field that makes a great backdrop for the overall beam patterns. The fact that lights like the Costco HID have hotspots and coronas that are so tight the canopy of the tree nearly completely obstructs them is in itself very usefull information.

I have a tower I like to shoot at in another location that is 546 yards from where we place the lights.

Just remember that those of us doing these shoots are volunteers with busy schedules and not all locations or times are great for everybody.
The canyon is between 1/2 and 3/4 of a mile hike up a rather steep fireroad. The park is a park your car and shoot site.

The reason I chose the canyon for the Helios shoot I did was mentioned in the thread I made about it. 
I do think there is merit in having shots that show the point where one light seems to "fade" while another is still illuminating well.
Only this has to be done in two different ways

1. Width of beam and distance up a hill the corona can light.
2. Throw of the hotspot.

Another factor to take into account is that the farther away the target is the harder it is to get lights with different beam characteristics focused on exactly the same spot.

Take Care,
mtbkndad :wave:

Mr Ted Bear & BVH, what time on Sunday?


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## BVH (Nov 1, 2006)

I'll defer to Mr. TB for the time. I don't quite remember directions to the park. Its at the very end of Nordoff or Devonshire? I can probably find it with GoogleEarth though. EDIT: I found it. I think our target tree is at:

34 degrees, 15 minutes, 37.81 seconds latitude &
118 degrees, 37 minutes, 9.73 seconds longitude

Daniel, let me know when you want to do another canyon shoot. Too bad you and I don't have access to any Xerays for that.


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## Mr Ted Bear (Nov 3, 2006)

Let's eat at 5, shoot at 6


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## mtbkndad (Nov 3, 2006)

Mr Ted Bear said:


> Let's eat at 5, shoot at 6


Sounds great, should we meet at your house?
Daniel
mtbkndad :wave:


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## LuxLuthor (Nov 3, 2006)

:candle:  :rock:


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## Ra (Nov 3, 2006)

BVH said:


> I'll defer to Mr. TB for the time. I don't quite remember directions to the park. Its at the very end of Nordoff or Devonshire? I can probably find it with GoogleEarth though. EDIT: I found it. I think our target tree is at:
> 
> 34 degrees, 15 hours, 37.81 minutes latitude &
> 118 degrees, 37 hours, 9.73 minutes longitude
> ...




Its Degrees, minutes, secs.. not degrees, hours, minutes..!!!


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## windstrings (Nov 3, 2006)

Ra said:


> Its Degrees, minutes, secs.. not degrees, hours, minutes..!!!



Thank goodness.. they could have ended up in Tokyo!


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## BVH (Nov 3, 2006)

Thanks, RA. Its been 37 years or so since I had a geography class. Guess I didn't learn much, did I! No excuses, though! Maybe I have too many GPS's and have gotten lazy. Hopefully, I'll make it to the right place with my Helios. Mr. TB and Daniel, point all the other lights to the sky to guide me in, please.


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## Ra (Nov 4, 2006)

BVH said:


> Mr. TB and Daniel, point all the other lights to the sky to guide me in, please.




Wouldn't it be nice if all CPF-members got together and point all their lights to the sky !!!! (they probably need to bring alot of friends and family to hold all those lights !!)

Regards,

Ra


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## LuxLuthor (Nov 4, 2006)

That would only be impressive if we all lived in North Korea.


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## BVH (Nov 4, 2006)

Thats amazing! What a dark place - probably in more than one way.


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## windstrings (Nov 5, 2006)

Wow.. a picture says a thousand words!


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## Mr Ted Bear (Nov 5, 2006)

slight change... eat at six, shoot at seven..
my son's team took a playoff slot at 4pm


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## mtbkndad (Nov 5, 2006)

That sounds fine as I will be working up till I leave for dinner.
Do we meet at your place or at same restaurant we went to last time?

Take Care,
mtbkndad :wave:


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## BVH (Nov 5, 2006)

Just let me know where to go and I'll be there. I think the restaurant we ate at last time was in the shopping center on Devonshire, right? Don't remember its name.


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## mtbkndad (Nov 5, 2006)

I believe it was Carrow's. You are right about the location. I will check this board one more time before I leave. Right now I am heading to my shop.
If I get a break I will call Mr. Ted Bear and then call you.

Take Care,
mtbkndad :wave:


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## mtbkndad (Nov 6, 2006)

The photo shoot went very well. 
I will let Mr Ted Bear start the new thread with his picks as it will take me a little time to get mine sized, uploaded to photobucket, and then posted. I will do each individual shot as is my custom. He will be able to post his roll shots faster. So far I have deleted my duplicate shots and named the remaining while the shoot is fresh in my mind.

Take Care,
mtbkndad :wave:


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## Mr Ted Bear (Nov 6, 2006)

Contact sheets completed, but can't get the ftp to work..... tommmorrow will have to do


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## adamlau (Mar 18, 2008)

windstrings said:


> ...X990...water resistant[ance]...


Acro has mentioned that the swivel joint is the area most vulnerable to moisture infiltration and subsequent shorting of the pack.


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