# What is the attraction of multiple-cell AA lights?



## Disciple (Nov 5, 2013)

I don't think I understand the desirability of multi-cell AA lights. I was rather enthusiastic about the Sunwayman D40A until I realized that according to tests on http://lygte-info.dk four AA eneloops have less energy than a single 2600mah 18650 cell. The more expensive eneloop XX batteries have greater self-discharge, and still four are roughly matched by a single 3400mah 18650 cell. Further, 18650 cells can be purchased less expensively than I have been able to find four eneloops.

Possible advantages that I can discern are:


Eneloops may have a longer lifespan than Lithium Ion cells.
Eneloops are safer than Li-ion cells
Eneloops may hold a charge longer
AA batteries are widely available

These do not in my mind justify twice the weight and volume for the same capacity. Counterpoints:


They _may_ last longer, but they also cost more. In 5+ years 18650 cells will presumably be even better, motivating an upgrade.
A protected 18650 in a 1-cell light is also stable. Are four series eneloops actually safer in any practical way?
I have been unable to confirm that current Lithium Ion cells have an appreciably higher self-discharge rate than eneloops.
When does this really matter? It's just as easy and affordable to keep a supply of CR123A cells as it is Lithium AA's for blackouts. What circumstance would require commonly available batteries? (I am assuming a hybrid 18650/CR123A device.)

Surely there is something I am missing as these are apparently quite popular. Please help me to understand what it is.

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See post #32 for my replies up to that point.

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Additional pros, both from this thread and further reading and consideration:


More devices run on AA batteries than I realized, and most people here already have eneloops and chargers. It is an excellent cell to standardize upon if one wishes to do so.


When traveling charging may not be practical, and if one cannot or will not take sufficient primary cells for the duration purchasing along the way will be far easier and less expensive with AA's versus CR123A's.


Eneloops have a simple charging profile and are tolerant of trickle-charging, making solar, improvised, or unattended charging practical and acceptably safe. They are intrinsically safer than CR123A's and even protected 18650's, tolerating abuse and accident better and with less serious consequences in the event of failure or destruction.


Energizer AA lithium primaries are better than ever: the latest ones are declared to have a 20-year shelf life, twice that of CR123A cells and with comparable energy density. Perhaps the ultimate primary cell of a common size.


Alkaline cells are less expensive than I had realized. I found a 48-count box of "Maxell LR6 AA Alkaline Batteries" at Amazon.com for $11.94 shipped, or $10.15 on "subscription." (Reviews are predominantly positive.)


A 4xAA torch makes better use of AA batteries than a 1 to 2 cell one at the same output level because the current requirement is 1/2 or 1/4 as much, ameliorating the atrocious high-draw performance of alkalines. That $10-12 box of AA's could run the D40A at 260 lumens for 48 hours according to selfbuilt's numbers. (If they are good alkalines.) That's quite impressive.


Combining the two points above: while I wouldn't store potentially-leaky alkalines in a nice light they could make a good extended-outage supply paired with a multi-AA light.

I think I will be glad to have a 4xAA light in my collection.


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## mcnair55 (Nov 5, 2013)

*Re: What is the attraction of multiple-AA lights?*

Led lights are bought by ordinary people and AA cells are widely available, personally there is to much anorak wearing on hobby sites in general and worrying about more energy in an 18650 than AA is getting really deep into geek territory. Members tend to spend small fortunes on Led lights then whinge about spending a few schekles on fuel.

I like to use and enjoy my lights without being bothered and bored silly about which battery.


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## Disciple (Nov 5, 2013)

*Re: What is the attraction of multiple-AA lights?*



mcnair55 said:


> Led lights are bought by ordinary people and AA cells are widely available, personally there is to much anorak wearing on hobby sites in general and worrying about more energy in an 18650 than AA is getting really deep into geek territory. Members tend to spend small fortunes on Led lights then whinge about spending a few schekles on fuel.
> 
> I like to use and enjoy my lights without being bothered and bored silly about which battery.




Perhaps I should have said popular _here_, where people are looking for the best.

I'll be the first to admit that 700 lumens vs. 800 lumens makes little difference, and people sometimes put too much weight in small differences. However, we are looking at twice (or half) the run-time for the same weight and volume, which is not a small difference on one of the primary (practical) performance metrics of a flashlight. I don't think this is "geek territory."


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## reppans (Nov 5, 2013)

*What is the attraction of multiple-AA lights?*

Most of my light collection is AA/14500/sub-lumen, and I do own a D40A. 

I'm a camper/traveler with a little prepper mixed in and gadgets that used proprietary batteries used to drive to me nuts with the need to pack/carry dedicated chargers and spare cells. I've consolidated all my portable camping/travel/emergency gadgets around Eneloops, pretty much since they were introduced in 2006. A single charger and set spares feeds everything and I have the deep back-ups options of cannibalizing between devices, or buying in any gas station. When I'm away from home, one of the primary functions of my flashlight is to be a battery container from which to cannibalize spare Eneloops (to charge my smartphone for example). 

Lastly, I kinda like the fact that in a real pinch, a AA light can also run common household cells like AAAs and AAAAs (from a 9V) with just a piece of McGyver tinfoil. My D40A will do 266 hrs on a 9V, which was about the only cell available in stores throughout the Hurricane Sandy outage.


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## gravelmonkey (Nov 5, 2013)

*Re: What is the attraction of multiple-AA lights?*

I've always assumed it's a safety aspect more than anything, especially if CPF'ers have 'house flashlights' that are available for the family to use, so would prefer to go NiMh.

There are also probably people who like to standardise their cell type for all their devices.


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## dsmcloud (Nov 5, 2013)

*Re: What is the attraction of multiple-AA lights?*

Just my 2 cents, how many stores can you walk into and buy 18650 cells? Point AA alot easier to buy.


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## Dead Goat (Nov 5, 2013)

*Re: What is the attraction of multiple-AA lights?*



dsmcloud said:


> Just my 2 cents, how many stores can you walk into and buy 18650 cells? Point AA alot easier to buy.



For that matter how many stores can you walk into and buy a 700 lumen flashlight ?


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## subwoofer (Nov 5, 2013)

*Re: What is the attraction of multiple-AA lights?*

Isn't it wonderful that there is so much choice in the world, 'different strokes for different folks'.

There are many many things I would never buy, just because I don't see the attraction, but many people do.

Fundamentally AA powered lights open up the entire market as everyone knows and uses AA cells. The humble AA, though outperformed by li-ion, is easy to find, easy to use, cheap, familiar, versatile and safe. No need to invest in a new charger and battery type with AA lights.

Though I love the output of 18650 lights, I see them as a niche market with a dedicated user base. AA lights are easy for anyone to get on with and multi-AA lights give you outputs similar to li-ion lights (albeit at the cost of extra weight and reduced runtime).

When I travel, I will usually take an 18650 light, but will always have a couple of AA powered lights. Anywhere in the world I will be able to find AAs, in the pound/dollar shops and if necessary salvaged from a remote control.

AA is the standard cell, and its dominance will be long lived.

Alternatively think of it like this - Your car runs on petrol/gas, but would be far more powerful if fuelled with racing alcohol (90% nitromethane and 10% methanol). I can't understand why you would want to bother using gasoline when you can use racing alcohol.


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## AnAppleSnail (Nov 5, 2013)

*Re: What is the attraction of multiple-AA lights?*

Li-Ions make some NASTY fumes when they are abused. My NiMHs that I've killed violently (Short circuit, overcharge, reverse charge, overheat) ooze a bit of goo that you don't want in your eyes. Once, I got one to spray its alkaline chemical around, but it only tarnished the inside of a flashlight.

4xAA is easy to get and easy to understand. And AAs give you different shape options. Smaller, thinner, or fatter, without going to oddball lithium cells. And I feel better about AAs in series/parallel than Li-Ions in series/parallel.


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## Disciple (Nov 5, 2013)

*Re: What is the attraction of multiple-AA lights?*

I'm learning a lot. Keep the answers coming.


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## Dead Goat (Nov 5, 2013)

*Re: What is the attraction of multiple-AA lights?*

I see the AA hosts as an entry point to high end LED torches for most first purchasers. Then one gets power hungry and goes for the LI-Ion and then on to the 186500's. Yep it's pretty much a one way street to 4Sevens XM18 _18,000 Lumen two handed daylight maker! Pass the jet fuel please. 

It will be interesting to see how long it takes for the likes of Olight, nitecore, Eagle Tac etc to make roads into the broader distribution streams. I recently saw a D cell flashlight that was 22 inches long and boasted a single mode of 130 lumens and 14 hours of run time. I'd hate to see the cargo pants that baby would fit in. 

Perhaps Duracell or Energizer will enter the market and put their lights side by side with their batteries. _


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## calipsoii (Nov 5, 2013)

*Re: What is the attraction of multiple-AA lights?*

I can't be bothered with the care and feeding of li-ion cells anymore. Seems like any time I go to use an 18650 light the battery is dead. Doubly-so when the power goes out and I have no way to charge them.

This hobby started with AA lights for me. I've been through a hundred different pocket rockets since then, and if you asked me for a light now, I'd hand you a TK20 and a couple Energizer Lithium AA's. When the snow's blowing and the power's out and I just need to see what the heck I'm doing, I'll take a Costco strip of Duracell's and a Peak El Cap over everything else in my stable.


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## davesc (Nov 5, 2013)

*Re: What is the attraction of multiple-AA lights?*

Well...if SHTF do you think you could round up some 18650 cells or AA's from the local drug store? Availability is important. 
What would you do in a Katrina like situation with your dead odd celled light? 

It's like going hunting in some really wild places in the world. You don't want a rifle that shoots some obscure wildcat round. If the airlines lose your ammo on the way, the odds are good you are out of luck with that gun. That's why it's good to use what's common. When in Rome, you do as the Roman's do...


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## dc38 (Nov 5, 2013)

*Re: What is the attraction of multiple-AA lights?*



davesc said:


> Well...if SHTF do you think you could round up some 18650 cells or AA's from the local drug store? Availability is important.
> What would you do in a Katrina like situation with your dead odd celled light?
> 
> It's like going hunting in some really wild places in the world. You don't want a rifle that shoots some obscure wildcat round. If the airlines lose your ammo on the way, the odds are good you are out of luck with that gun. That's why it's good to use what's common. When in Rome, you do as the Roman's do...



No need for AA alkys, I believe the aa cells in question are rechargeable nimh. Namely, eneloops. The primary benefits of eneloops are previously mentioned. Long self discharge and can put out level power until the bitter end. Pair those together with a decent output light with minimal parasitic drain and you've got an awesome shtf light. You don't want to grab a light that has completely dead cells when you need it, nor would you want to waste valuable time swapping batteries when you need to be moving...

with some knowledge, one can harness electricity from solute rich liquids; and 'solute rich' liquids should be plentiful as long as you're alive


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## Quality (Nov 5, 2013)

*Re: What is the attraction of multiple-AA lights?*

I don't understand the reason for your questions. If you want an 18650 light then get one.

It almost sounds like you don't want other people to have AA powered lights.


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## Poppy (Nov 5, 2013)

*Re: What is the attraction of multiple Cell -AA lights?*



reppans said:


> Most of my light collection is AA/14500/sub-lumen, and I do own a D40A.
> 
> <snip> I've consolidated all my portable camping/travel/emergency gadgets around Eneloops, pretty much since they were introduced in 2006. A single charger and set spares feeds everything and I have the deep back-ups options of cannibalizing between devices, or buying in any gas station. <SNIP>.





Dead Goat said:


> I see the AA hosts as an entry point to high end LED torches for most first purchasers. Then one gets power hungry and goes for the LI-Ion and then on to the 186500's. _<SNIP>. _



Based in part on responses in this Power Outage Thread, it seems that people for the most part fall into two camps. Those who like lower lumens (primarily AA lights) and those who like sustained 100 lumens or more (the 18650 camp).

I think that the above two people: reppans, and Dead Goat, present the two *most acceptable* scenarios to recommend a 4, 6, or 8 cell AA light. 

IMO, the argument that AAs are available everywhere, is a nonsense argument. It is an especially nonsense argument for buying a multiple cell AA light. When ever anyone recommends a multi-cell AA light, they also recommend getting eneloops and a charger. So why not 18650's and a charger? 

If I am not at home, I have my car. In my car I have two chargers in the glove box, a cheap 18650 charger, that can also be used as a mobile power source (such as for charging a cell phone, or just to carry a spare battery), and a cheap 2*AA/AAA charger. A car battery can be considered an almost endless supply of energy for lighting purposes. I estimate that 10% car battery capacity will charge 20* 18650's, or 70* eneloops. At that point, there will be NO AA batteries available for sale. 

If I am in some unseen scenario where I can walk into a gas station and BUY AA batteries, I'd have to assume that the station still has electricity, (OR they would be closed) I also imagine that if I buy the attendant a cup of a coffee, he'd let me plug in my Xtar WP6-2 charger. During Sandy multiple power strips daisy chained together was not an uncommon site at coffee shops, where people charged their cell phones and laptops.

So in conclusion, I wouldn't recommend a multiple (4-8) cell AA light except for a beginner, or to consolidate everything into AA's.


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## mcnair55 (Nov 5, 2013)

*Re: What is the attraction of multiple-AA lights?*



reppans said:


> Most of my light collection is AA/14500/sub-lumen, and I do own a D40A.
> 
> I'm a camper/traveler with a little prepper mixed in and gadgets that used proprietary batteries used to drive to me nuts with the need to pack/carry dedicated chargers and spare cells. I've consolidated all my portable camping/travel/emergency gadgets around Eneloops, pretty much since they were introduced in 2006. A single charger and set spares feeds everything and I have the deep back-ups options of cannibalizing between devices, or buying in any gas station. When I'm away from home, one of the primary functions of my flashlight is to be a battery container from which to cannibalize spare Eneloops (to charge my smartphone for example).
> 
> Lastly, I kinda like the fact that in a real pinch, a AA light can also run common household cells like AAAs and AAAAs (from a 9V) with just a piece of McGyver tinfoil. My D40A will do 266 hrs on a 9V, which was about the only cell available in stores throughout the Hurricane Sandy outage.



Totally agree with you.



dsmcloud said:


> Just my 2 cents, how many stores can you walk into and buy 18650 cells? Point AA alot easier to buy.



Good answer in the UK very difficult.



Dead Goat said:


> For that matter how many stores can you walk into and buy a 700 lumen flashlight ?



In the UK becoming much easier and National radio at present are advertising a 720 lumen lamp as a xmas gift.



Quality said:


> I don't understand the reason for your questions. If you want an 18650 light then get one.
> 
> It almost sounds like you don't want other people to have AA powered lights.



Lol i got that impression as well,at least with AA your choice of AA type is even larger.


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## Ryp (Nov 5, 2013)

*Re: What is the attraction of multiple-AA lights?*

Variety.


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## davesc (Nov 5, 2013)

*Re: What is the attraction of multiple-AA lights?*



Poppy said:


> IMO, the argument that AAs are available everywhere, is a nonsense argument. It is an especially nonsense argument for buying a multiple cell AA light. When ever anyone recommends a multi-cell AA light, they also recommend getting eneloops and a charger. So why not 18650's and a charger?



You make a darned good point. 18650's and a charger. Can't argue with good logic!


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## bright star (Nov 5, 2013)

*Re: What is the attraction of multiple-AA lights?*

For what it;s worth i have the jetbeam bc40 [ 900 lumen upgrade] and although i love this light; i still reach for my jetbeam pa40 aa light as my edc. Just orded the fenix ld41. [ 680 lumen upgrade.


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## Monocrom (Nov 5, 2013)

*Re: What is the attraction of multiple-AA lights?*

I'd say that standardization on one battery type for all the lights one uses is a very attractive option for some. Not for me. But I did standardize all the lights in my BOB to AA models.


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## braddy (Nov 5, 2013)

*Re: What is the attraction of multiple-AA lights?*

I would feel pretty vulnerable if all I had was 18650 flashlights.

Even in the car, a high quality, single AA light gives me the options of buying additional batteries as used, or taking one out of a toy or my Walkman type radio, or asking another motorist for one, or using an adapter and the AAA out of my keychain light, or even robbing the solar garden lights.

I also keep a test voltage meter in my car that runs off of a single AA.

That option of being able to use the batteries from your, or anyone's garden solar lighting, (and to recharge them during the day) is pretty cool.

AA lights are also smaller and easier to clip onto a hat.


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## CurrentlyVacant (Nov 5, 2013)

*Re: What is the attraction of multiple-AA lights?*

Granted, I am a complete beginner in buying reasonable quality torches, but the attraction for me in a multi AA unit was inter-operability with other items.
My torch takes NiMh AA, my walking GPS takes NiMh AA, the battery lanterns in my tent take NiMh AA my camera takes NiMh AA, my kid's toys take NiMh AA, hell even the remotes for the TV and Cable box take them. If needed I can buy primaries pretty much 24/7/365 should the need arise.

For me the convenience of knowing that I only have to worry about a single battery type is key.

Yes, if I wanted the brightest torch with the longest runtime and smallest size, I would need to use a different powersource; some people do want those things and there are products for that market.

Comparing the two seems almost like trying to compare a sports car to a people carrier (minivan, I think is the American term), yes they are both modes of transport, but while the sports car will do the quarter mile quicker, you sometimes need to take the family + dog + camping gear with you!


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## dealgrabber2002 (Nov 5, 2013)

*Re: What is the attraction of multiple-AA lights?*



reppans said:


> My D40A will do 266 hrs on a 9V, which was about the only cell available in stores throughout the Hurricane Sandy outage.



Do you mean the 9v battery for the smoke detectors? Also, how did you come up with 266 hrs.? Thanks.


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## amanichen (Nov 5, 2013)

*Re: What is the attraction of multiple-AA lights?*

I have (2) 1xAA lights, (2) 2xAA lights, and have a 4xAA light on the way. The 1xAA lights are EDC, 2xAA lights are all-purpose indoor/outdoor, and the 4xAA will be for throw outdoors and room lighting during power outages indoors. I prefer Eneloop AAs as a power source for a number of different reasons, and have standardized on them for many of the reasons already mentioned above. Because of this, going to a multiple AA light is generally the only way I can get higher output, longer throw, and more runtime.


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## mcnair55 (Nov 5, 2013)

*Re: What is the attraction of multiple-AA lights?*



davesc said:


> You make a darned good point. 18650's and a charger. Can't argue with good logic!



Reading the full thread i strongly disagree with the logic.18650 and a charger is great till it all goes belly up and then you are screwed.



braddy said:


> I would feel pretty vulnerable if all I had was 18650 flashlights.
> 
> Even in the car, a high quality, single AA light gives me the options of buying additional batteries as used, or taking one out of a toy or my Walkman type radio, or asking another motorist for one, or using an adapter and the AAA out of my keychain light, or even robbing the solar garden lights.
> 
> ...



I feel better off with AA in being secure i can borrow them out of my radios,scanners clocks etc if urgently needed.



CurrentlyVacant said:


> Granted, I am a complete beginner in buying reasonable quality torches, but the attraction for me in a multi AA unit was inter-operability with other items.
> My torch takes NiMh AA, my walking GPS takes NiMh AA, the battery lanterns in my tent take NiMh AA my camera takes NiMh AA, my kid's toys take NiMh AA, hell even the remotes for the TV and Cable box take them. If needed I can buy primaries pretty much 24/7/365 should the need arise.
> 
> For me the convenience of knowing that I only have to worry about a single battery type is key.
> ...



Well put.



amanichen said:


> I have (2) 1xAA lights, (2) 2xAA lights, and have a 4xAA light on the way. The 1xAA lights are EDC, 2xAA lights are all-purpose indoor/outdoor, and the 4xAA will be for throw outdoors and room lighting during power outages indoors. I prefer Eneloop AAs as a power source for a number of different reasons, and have standardized on them for many of the reasons already mentioned above. Because of this, going to a multiple AA light is generally the only way I can get higher output, longer throw, and more runtime.



Seems you prefer AA.


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## Dead Goat (Nov 5, 2013)

*Re: What is the attraction of multiple-AA lights?*



mcnair55 said:


> In the UK becoming much easier and National radio at present are advertising a 720 lumen lamp as a xmas gift.




:thumbsup: It's on my list. Just trying to convince the wife to buy it and put it in my stocking. She says "what do you need another man cave trinket for?" I respond "So you won't be buying any more shoes this year?", and she shoots me ....the look...


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## Poppy (Nov 5, 2013)

*Re: What is the attraction of multiple Cell -AA lights?*



braddy said:


> I would feel pretty vulnerable if all I had was 18650 flashlights.
> 
> Even in the car, a high quality, single AA light gives me the options of buying additional batteries as used, or taking one out of a toy or my Walkman type radio, or asking another motorist for one, or using an adapter and the AAA out of my keychain light, or even robbing the solar garden lights.
> 
> ...





mcnair55 said:


> > " Originally Posted by *davesc* You make a darned good point. 18650's and a charger. Can't argue with good logic!"
> 
> 
> 
> ...



braddy, and mcnair55,
No one is arguing whether a single or dual cell AA light has value. If you read my post, I stated that I carry in my car a 18650 charger, AND a AA/AAA charger. I also carry AA and AAA lights. 

The OP was referring to AA lights with multiple cells, 4 cells, 6 cells, or 8 cells. He was questioning... why buy them, instead of one or two celled 18650 lights?


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## samgab (Nov 5, 2013)

*Re: What is the attraction of multiple-AA lights?*



Disciple said:


> I don't think I understand the desirability of AA-cell lights. ...




Umm, did you not just recently order a D40Avn, a 4AA light?


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## braddy (Nov 5, 2013)

*Re: What is the attraction of multiple-AA lights?*

Poppy, I also see a discussion on AA batteries versus 18650s , not just 4+ battery flashlights.


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## Hooked on Fenix (Nov 5, 2013)

*Re: What is the attraction of multiple-AA lights?*

There are many reasons to take a 4AA light over a 1 18650 light, especially since you can get 700-800+ lumens in a 4AA light now.
1. Availability- You can go into any store and purchase AAs. They are in stores when you need them. They are in other devices when you need to snatch them as well.
2. Variety of uses- You can use alkalines for loan out lights or for backup batteries or emergencies. You can use rechargeables for everyday use. Eneloops get 1800 charges now with a 5 year shelf life, good cold weather performance, and proven improvements still to be soon available (2100 charge Eneloops, 5000 charge Eneloop lites). Lithium cells can be used for long term emergencies, very cold weather (AA and AAA lithiums are rated for colder temps than 123As), and backpacking trips.
3. Compatability with other devices- On a backpacking trip, I can run a flashlight, a headlight, a 4AA Steripen, a digital camera, a couple walkie talkies, and my Sierra Zip Stove all on AAs. Having to carry a light that only takes 18650s means carrying more weight and not being able to salvage batteries from other devices in an emergency.
4. Lower cost, ligher weight, and greater availability of solar charging options- With AAs, I can bring a 4 oz. Powerfilm solar charger backpacking to use for all my devices. For 18650s, I have to get one of the few special lights with a mini-USB charging option and take a larger solar charger that charges USB devices. Many of these lights have a proprietary battery that can't be changed out with a fresh one. For survival in the woods, emergencies, and power outages, the ability to charge the battery by alternative means is essential.


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## Disciple (Nov 6, 2013)

*Re: What is the attraction of multiple-AA lights?*

Thank you all; I got more answers than I could have hoped for. I shall attempt to reply to as many posts as possible (with apologies if I seem to have overlooked yours) for anyone who wishes to continue the dialog. 
First let me address this:



Quality said:


> I don't understand the reason for your questions. If you want an 18650 light then get one.
> 
> It almost sounds like you don't want other people to have AA powered lights.



You don't know me, so let me explain this to you once  : If I ask a question it is because I am sincerely interested in the answer. Other than the obvious figure of speech I do not ask rhetorical or sarcastic questions. I do not "ask" a question as a veiled disparagement or insult. I knew in this case (AA) I must be missing something, and sure enough I was. Contrary to your supposition I expect to be receiving a D40A soon and I was hoping that you all could convince me of its value in using AA cells.



reppans said:


> I'm a camper/traveler with a little prepper mixed in and gadgets that used proprietary batteries used to drive to me nuts with the need to pack/carry dedicated chargers and spare cells. I've consolidated all my portable camping/travel/emergency gadgets around Eneloops, pretty much since they were introduced in 2006. A single charger and set spares feeds everything and I have the deep back-ups options of cannibalizing between devices, or buying in any gas station. When I'm away from home, one of the primary functions of my flashlight is to be a battery container from which to cannibalize spare Eneloops (to charge my smartphone for example).



This is probably _the_ big point that I was overlooking. (The elephant in the room, if you will.) For flashlights I de facto standardized on CR123A batteries when I got my first modern one and retired the MagLites. Further, I don't have any devices I can think of that run on AA batteries besides a couple of TV remotes and a wall clock. (It seems like everything is transitioning to battery packs if it has not done so already.) AA batteries may seem as common as salt to other people but I'll have to go out and buy eneloops and charger before I can use an AA flashlight.



subwoofer said:


> Fundamentally AA powered lights open up the entire market as everyone knows and uses AA cells. The humble AA, though outperformed by li-ion, is easy to find, easy to use, cheap, familiar, versatile and safe. No need to invest in a new charger and battery type with AA lights.



Apparently I'm looking from the other side of the mirror because that's exactly what I'll have to do. (See above.)



subwoofer said:


> Though I love the output of 18650 lights, I see them as a niche market with a dedicated user base.


 Isn't all of CPF a niche market? That is why I was initially surprised at the popularity of AA power here, but I am learning.



subwoofer said:


> When I travel, I will usually take an 18650 light, but will always have a couple of AA powered lights. Anywhere in the world I will be able to find AAs, in the pound/dollar shops and if necessary salvaged from a remote control.



This is the second big point I shall take from this. My envisioning did not include travel, at least besides travel by automobile. It should have, as I recently learned that people are having trouble sending lithium batteries by air mail because of restrictions. Not being able to take lithium batteries on a trip would be disasterious for a CR123A/18650-only light. I don't know the specifics of the restrictions but I must look into this.



subwoofer said:


> Alternatively think of it like this - Your car runs on petrol/gas, but would be far more powerful if fueled with racing alcohol (90% nitromethane and 10% methanol). I can't understand why you would want to bother using gasoline when you can use racing alcohol.



If it were possible to carry all the fuel needed for every trip a strong case could be made for the racing fuel. I haven't bought flashlight batteries at the store in probably ten years. I can't see myself doing it in the future except perhaps in the case of travel as mentioned above.




gravelmonkey said:


> I've always assumed it's a safety aspect more than anything, especially if CPF'ers have 'house flashlights' that are available for the family to use, so would prefer to go NiMh.





AnAppleSnail said:


> Li-Ions make some NASTY fumes when they are abused. My NiMHs that I've killed violently (Short circuit, overcharge, reverse charge, overheat) ooze a bit of goo that you don't want in your eyes. Once, I got one to spray its alkaline chemical around, but it only tarnished the inside of a flashlight.



I need someone to describe precisely the scenarios in which 4xAA would be safer than a single protected 18650. I can only think of fire (external, e.g. house fire), mechanical damage, and trickle charging. The last can be simply avoided by using a good charger. Are the first two enough to justify Ni-MH over Li-ion? I have yet to hear about an 18650 flashlight that turned pipe-bomb because someone dropped it down a flight of stairs; is this a realistic concern?



AnAppleSnail said:


> 4xAA is easy to get and easy to understand. And AAs give you different shape options. Smaller, thinner, or fatter, without going to oddball lithium cells. And I feel better about AAs in series/parallel than Li-Ions in series/parallel.



How often does this practically result in a superior light? I naievely thought 4xAA would have greater capacity than 1x18650, but since that's not the case there doesn't seem to be much advantage from the shape department. The 18650 is some 18mm longer but otherwise half the size of a 4xAA cluster. As nice as the D40A looks it appears no more and arguably less convenient than many 1x18650 40MM-head flashlights. AA's can be laid out flat with a thickness of about 14.2mm compared to 18.5mm. Can you point to a case where this results in a superior form factor?



Dead Goat said:


> I see the AA hosts as an entry point to high end LED torches for most first purchasers. Then one gets power hungry and goes for the LI-Ion and then on to the 186500's. Yep it's pretty much a one way street to 4Sevens XM18 _18,000 Lumen two handed daylight maker! Pass the jet fuel please._



That was my original perspective but I'm starting to understand why veteran users might (also) choose AA power.



calipsoii said:


> I can't be bothered with the care and feeding of li-ion cells anymore. Seems like any time I go to use an 18650 light the battery is dead. Doubly-so when the power goes out and I have no way to charge them.


 I don't understand this; any of it. Why would 18650 cells be flat? Why wouldn't you use a 12V charger or primary cells (CR123A) when the power is out?



calipsoii said:


> When the snow's blowing and the power's out and I just need to see what the heck I'm doing, I'll take a Costco strip of Duracell's and a Peak El Cap over everything else in my stable.



Given the especially poor performance of alkaline batteries in cold weather I think I'd reach for just about anything else. Seriously, I'm not trying to be confrontational, but this doesn't make sense to me. You have owned a lot more lights than I have so I stand to learn something. Why would you choose this?



davesc said:


> Well...if SHTF do you think you could round up some 18650 cells or AA's from the local drug store? Availability is important.
> What would you do in a Katrina like situation with your dead odd celled light?



I find it hard to believe that anyone planning for a "Katrina" would plan on running to the store to scrap for batteries, or raiding remote controls and toys for that matter. _If you are planning ahead lay in a supply!_ 



dc38 said:


> with some knowledge, one can harness electricity from solute rich liquids; and 'solute rich' liquids should be plentiful as long as you're alive


 Pardon me if I'm reading this wrong, but did you just describe a urine-cell? :huh:



reppans said:


> Lastly, I kinda like the fact that in a real pinch, a AA light can also run common household cells like AAAs and AAAAs (from a 9V) with just a piece of McGyver tinfoil. My D40A will do 266 hrs on a 9V, which was about the only cell available in stores throughout the Hurricane Sandy outage.



If we're getting into tinfoil MacGyvering you could run an 18650 light on 3xAAAA as well, or take the head off and run it on any 3-series source. (Stick it all in a Zip-Loc to keep the rain out!) I plan to avoid such dire measures with a stock of primary cells and a 12V charger.



Poppy said:


> IMO, the argument that AAs are available everywhere, is a nonsense argument. ...
> 
> If I am not at home, I have my car. In my car I have two chargers in the glove box, a cheap 18650 charger, that can also be used as a mobile power source (such as for charging a cell phone, or just to carry a spare battery), and a cheap 2*AA/AAA charger. A car battery can be considered an almost endless supply of energy for lighting purposes. I estimate that 10% car battery capacity will charge 20* 18650's, or 70* eneloops. At that point, there will be NO AA batteries available for sale.
> 
> If I am in some unseen scenario where I can walk into a gas station and BUY AA batteries, I'd have to assume that the station still has electricity ...



I see I'm not alone in failing to accept the advantage of AA "availability" in an emergency. I don't want to be part of the unprepared stampede clearing the shelves. (I thought people here generally shook their heads at those rushing out to buy a flashlight before a hurricane; why would needing to rush out to buy batteries before one be any smarter?) If I am not allowed to take a box of CR123A cells on an airplane then AA's clearly would be an advantage, but I'd still either bring my own supply or buy one after landing, _before _ an emergency.



braddy said:


> I would feel pretty vulnerable if all I had was 18650 flashlights.
> 
> Even in the car, a high quality, single AA light gives me the options of buying additional batteries as used, or taking one out of a toy or my Walkman type radio, or asking another motorist for one, or using an adapter and the AAA out of my keychain light, or even robbing the solar garden lights.
> 
> ...



I specifically said multiple-AA lights because I already agreed that single AA lights have nice qualities.
If you are raiding your own toys etc. for batteries that seems like a failure to plan. In other scenarios car batteries seem like a far better source of power. I must say however I've never considered garden lights.  What kind of cell do these usually contain?



CurrentlyVacant said:


> Granted, I am a complete beginner in buying reasonable quality torches, but the attraction for me in a multi AA unit was inter-operability with other items.
> My torch takes NiMh AA, my walking GPS takes NiMh AA, the battery lanterns in my tent take NiMh AA my camera takes NiMh AA ... For me the convenience of knowing that I only have to worry about a single battery type is key.



As acknowledged a common battery for all devices is a powerful incentive. I am apparently the oddball not owning AA devices. (Don't most cameras have Lithium Polymer packs now?)



Poppy said:


> No one is arguing whether a single or dual cell AA light has value. If you read my post, I stated that I carry in my car a 18650 charger, AND a AA/AAA charger. I also carry AA and AAA lights.
> 
> The OP was referring to AA lights with multiple cells, 4 cells, 6 cells, or 8 cells. He was questioning... why buy them, instead of one or two celled 18650 lights?



Thank you for comprehending the subtlety of my question. 



samgab said:


> Umm, did you not just recently order a D40Avn, a 4AA light?



Yes siree! :devil: (vn54 has a singular way of separating people from their money and leaving them happy.) I wanted CPF to tell me why I had made the right choice. :naughty:



braddy said:


> Poppy, I also see a discussion on AA batteries versus 18650s , not just 4+ battery flashlights.



That is inevitable as I did ask for strengths of LSD-NiMH cells but I wanted to focus on high-power multi-AA lights.



Hooked on Fenix said:


> (AA and AAA lithiums are rated for colder temps than 123As)


 That is news to me. I thought the only types that topped CR123As were some Saft military cells.



Hooked on Fenix said:


> 3. Compatibility with other devices- On a backpacking trip, I can run a flashlight, a headlight, a 4AA Steripen, a digital camera, a couple walkie talkies, and my Sierra Zip Stove all on AAs. Having to carry a light that only takes 18650s means carrying more weight and not being able to salvage batteries from other devices in an emergency.



Thank you for yet another voice confirming the primary AA advantage in my mind. My camera takes a Li-Poly pack. A flashlight and headlight can be CR123A or 18650. I have image-stabilized binoculars that take a CR123A as well. However I don't have a Steripen or 2-way radios. Things to think about...



Hooked on Fenix said:


> 4. Lower cost, lighter weight, and greater availability of solar charging options- With AAs, I can bring a 4 oz. Powerfilm solar charger backpacking to use for all my devices. For 18650s, I have to get one of the few special lights with a mini-USB charging option and take a larger solar charger that charges USB devices. Many of these lights have a proprietary battery that can't be changed out with a fresh one. For survival in the woods, emergencies, and power outages, the ability to charge the battery by alternative means is essential.



More interesting things to consider. Assuming for a moment it were possible to get all 18650-powered devices, is there some reason these cells cannot be (easily) charged with solar power? Do the devices simply not exist? (Yet?)


----------



## braddy (Nov 6, 2013)

*Re: What is the attraction of multiple-AA lights?*



> If you are raiding your own toys etc. for batteries that seem like a failure to plan. In other scenarios car batteries seem like a far better source of power. I must say however I've never considered garden lights. What kind of cell do these usually contain?



OHhhh, don't worry, I plan, but the more that something is free and scattered around for the taking, the better in a prepper situation, that is why I bought the 9 volt Pak-lite, because it is a basic part of the scavenging battery niche, redundacy.

Most of the garden lights take one or two rechargeable AAs, just as those batteries are interchangeable with your flashlight AAs, your alkaline batteries can power the solar lights.

Those cheap little single led solar lights that are pretty much useless in your garden, make nice little lights inside of your house during blackouts, with an alkaline in it.
Some of those lights can run for a few hundred hours on a fresh alkaline, and are super battery vampires.

I EDC two lights, one Fenix LD01 that uses an AAA battery, and a PD35 that uses a 18650, I do like the five year shelf life of eneloops, and the fact that they charge faster and easier than 18650s, and that if I needed to, I could raid a solar charger from countless yards in America.


----------



## Disciple (Nov 6, 2013)

*Re: What is the attraction of multiple-AA lights?*



braddy said:


> I do like the five year shelf life of eneloops, and the fact that they charge faster and easier than 18650s, and that if I needed to, I could raid a solar charger from countless yards in America.



It is also news to me that eneloops can charge faster. What is the recommended and maximum charge rate for eneloops?

I have to admit the free solar charger idea is kinda cool. How many hours of full sun would it take to charge an eneloop to 95% in one of these?


----------



## braddy (Nov 6, 2013)

*Re: What is the attraction of multiple-AA lights?*

My eneloops charge faster than my 18650s, especially my AAAs, as far as the garden solar chargers, it would depend, but in a situation where you are using those, a full charge wouldn't be much of an issue.

You charge your battery during the day and use it at night, then finish it the next day if needed, I also keep lots of the AAA to AA adapters, which in effect, makes any AAA that falls into my hands, usable as a AA battery, and of course they would fit into the garden light as well.


----------



## Jash (Nov 6, 2013)

*Re: What is the attraction of multiple-AA lights?*



Disciple said:


> I don't think I understand the desirability of AA-cell lights.



The average person who wants a good light will buy something AA, AAA or D powered. They do not want to bother with the expense of li-ion cells and a specialised charger. Flashlight making companies cannot make just 18650 lights and stay in business (custom makers exempt). 

Fenix makes about twice as many AAA, AA and D cell lights as they do CR123 and 18650 lights. They are just one of many manufacturers that know what sells, and at the moment the bulk of it is not lithium/li-ion based lights. And consider Fenix is not even widely known about compared to makers like Maglite, Energizer, Duracell, Dorcy etc.

I can go into any hardware store, super market, service station and buy a flashlight and AA batteries. There's only a handful of stores in my state (only two I can think of) that even know what an 18650 is, let alone sell a lot of them.

I love my 18650 lights, but if I had to choose between AA and li-ion, AA wins hands down.


----------



## greeny1 (Nov 6, 2013)

*Re: What is the attraction of multiple-AA lights?*

I don't agree with your original assertion that 18650 are cheaper than AA Nimh. In the UK this certainly is not the case. A decent 18650 (3400 mah Eagetec) is £14 each in the UK. 4 AA eneloops can be bought for £7.99 (sometimes cheaper). Good quality 7dayshop staycharged AA can be had for as little as £3.99 for 4. In addition many people already have an AA charger, whereas a decent LiIon charger is £20+.

So I bought a LD41 for my sister last year and gave her a pack of 7dayshop AA's to go with it (she already has charger). To buy a 18650 light I would have added approx £30 to the cost!!

I agree for the ultimate in performance 18650 is the way to go, But the power available from AA lights is more that sufficient for 95% of typical uses. Most of the other AA advantages have been covered by other responses.

For a flashlight newbie I would definitely recommend AA over 18650s


----------



## AnAppleSnail (Nov 6, 2013)

*Re: What is the attraction of multiple-AA lights?*



Disciple said:


> I need someone to describe precisely the scenarios in which 4xAA would be safer than a single protected 18650. I can only think of fire (external, e.g. house fire), mechanical damage, and trickle charging. The last can be simply avoided by using a good charger. Are the first two enough to justify Ni-MH over Li-ion? I have yet to hear about an 18650 flashlight that turned pipe-bomb because someone dropped it down a flight of stairs; is this a realistic concern?



Not all battery fires are bad batteries, chargers, or abuse. But gladly accepting a new failure mode into my life (New ways to burn the house down) is something I want to go into with Both Eyes Open. Several posts in that subforum are things that should have gone right and didn't. The same high energy density in Li-Ion cells makes them more dangerous when something does go wrong. Many failure modes are common between NiMH and Li-Ion chemistries failing. More chemical energy (And worse fumes) makes the Li-Ion more troubling to me.



> How often does this practically result in a superior light? I naievely thought 4xAA would have greater capacity than 1x18650, but since that's not the case there doesn't seem to be much advantage from the shape department. The 18650 is some 18mm longer but otherwise half the size of a 4xAA cluster. As nice as the D40A looks it appears no more and arguably less convenient than many 1x18650 40MM-head flashlights. AA's can be laid out flat with a thickness of about 14.2mm compared to 18.5mm. Can you point to a case where this results in a superior form factor?


The 18650 is much larger than a single AA. My L3 L10 gives me days of light or an hour of plenty of light on one AA. That's convenience and a superior form factor for small-pocket carry than even a bare 18650 cell. Demanding that all lights have the most possible available power has me asking, "Where is your generator in the Radio Flyer wagon?"



> More interesting things to consider. Assuming for a moment it were possible to get all 18650-powered devices, is there some reason these cells cannot be (easily) charged with solar power? Do the devices simply not exist? (Yet?)



You can charge anything with solar power. But your solar charger needs a charge controller and a simple 'float' battery to keep it from resetting when a cloud passes overhead. I like AAs because I don't have any problems keeping 20 or 30 around the house in various places. My toddler won't damage things with them (Unless she pitches them at the cat) or damage the battery by using a flashlight. AAs allow small and big lights, and are common enough and unlikely to become unavailable after several more plane fires.


----------



## whiteoakjoe (Nov 6, 2013)

*Re: What is the attraction of multiple-AA lights?*

When I walk out of the house at night on the farm an 18650 is the way to go. But when I have to travel, (my job has me heading from state to state often) along the interstate system, I want AA lights in the car. I edc a 14500 light on these trips, and have a 4xAA PA-40 in the vehicle, along with a 8 pack of lithium energizers I could pack 18650's and charger but its so much easier to just run lithium AA's or 14500 and have the security of knowing that every gas station and supermarket along the route has AA's cheep if I ever run dry.


----------



## mcnair55 (Nov 6, 2013)

*Re: What is the attraction of multiple-AA lights?*



greeny1 said:


> I don't agree with your original assertion that 18650 are cheaper than AA Nimh. In the UK this certainly is not the case. A decent 18650 (3400 mah Eagetec) is £14 each in the UK. 4 AA eneloops can be bought for £7.99 (sometimes cheaper). Good quality 7dayshop staycharged AA can be had for as little as £3.99 for 4. In addition many people already have an AA charger, whereas a decent LiIon charger is £20+.
> 
> So I bought a LD41 for my sister last year and gave her a pack of 7dayshop AA's to go with it (she already has charger). To buy a 18650 light I would have added approx £30 to the cost!!
> 
> ...



As a long time user of Eneloop type the 7day shop brand are not bad for the price but to be honest will not be buying anymore as i find the brand Instants far better. Maplins have a very good deal at the moment with an 18650 light with 2 batteries and mains /car charger for £29.99


----------



## reppans (Nov 6, 2013)

*What is the attraction of multiple-AA lights?*



Disciple said:


> ....
> If we're getting into tinfoil MacGyvering you could run an 18650 light on 3xAAAA as well, or take the head off and run it on any 3-series source. (Stick it all in a Zip-Loc to keep the rain out!) I plan to avoid such dire measures with a stock of primary cells and a 12V charger.
> ....
> I see I'm not alone in failing to accept the advantage of AA "availability" in an emergency. I don't want to be part of the unprepared stampede clearing the shelves. (I thought people here generally shook their heads at those rushing out to buy a flashlight before a hurricane; why would needing to rush out to buy batteries before one be any smarter?)
> ...



As a ultra-light camper/traveler (and former NYC train commuter), I can often be away from my home and car, and can only depend on what I have on my person and in my bag, so the effectively endless back-up options of buying in stores and cannibalizing/scavenging cells are crucial to me. (At home, I have an RV generator, and a few AA solar/12V chargers, so no worries there). Depending upon how lightweight you like to travel, and where or how long you are going, buying as you go sometimes makes more sense than carrying enough spares and/or chargers. Except for the 9v, which I found readily available in stores during the Sandy outage (power companies always bring commercial areas up first), I do agree buying cells in a SHTF event is kinda useless, but that's were the McGyver scavenging option comes into play. The key is that all the power options (cell hoarding, charging, chemistries) that are available to 18650 users, are also available to the AA users, but it's not vice versa. 

With regard to the McGyver thing, I guess I was really referring more to my 1xAA collection which will run single cells down to 0.9v (as a sub-/low- lumen enthusiast, the D40A was more a novelty purchase for me). But to the point of this thread and multi-cell AA lights, you do make a good point that 3xAAAAs (or AAA/AAs) can equally power your 18650. I guess the big difference is that, with the D40A, you won't need a Ziplock bag ;-). That said, for my ultimate SHTF light - a Quark AAX - I guess I would need a Ziplock when McGyvering CR123s and 18650s, but you gotta pick your spots.

Anyways I like these threads, lots of good discussion, thoughts, and respect going around.


----------



## dss_777 (Nov 6, 2013)

*Re: What is the attraction of multiple-AA lights?*

I finally made the jump to 18xxx rechargeables, and spent close to $100 on a charger and just 2 18650 cells. Being me, I went with an Xtar VP1 and AW protected cells cause it's what all the cool kids have. My goal is optimal performance, and I'm willing to pay for it. And I like thinking I'm cool. 

However, if you're willing to live with decent (but not great) light performance, that'd buy an awful lot of AA cells. And that's not counting the cost of the 18xxx based lights.

I would dare any one of you to add up ALL the money you've spent on your gear, and compare it to the "decent (but not great)" AA alternatives. It's expensive being so cool sometimes. 

Just a thought...


----------



## Cunha (Nov 6, 2013)

*Re: What is the attraction of multiple-AA lights?*

I like AA lights because Eneloops are really good batteries. If I could get D cell eneloops I would probably have some 2d mag with malkoff dropin or something. 

Its just a really robust power source, and yeah, L91's can be had for 2 dollars a piece at any drug store versus mail order only or 5 or 6 dollars a piece at the same store for CR123a's.

Sometimes form factor comes into play, too.


----------



## braddy (Nov 6, 2013)

*Re: What is the attraction of multiple-AA lights?*

I'm also reminded of being able to use old outdated alkalines, for blackout lighting.

My first quality lights were the old battery vampires, the CMG Infinity, the Lightwave 2000, the Lightwave 4000, so I got used to never throwing away batteries, even my pretty well used up Alkalines are usable in those lights, during blackouts.

So I have Eneloops for my top lights, and a permanent junk box of used, and old Alkalines for my cheap long run, lights (and loaners). During a blackout, I can lend cheap lights and a fist full of old batteries, and tell them to just use the light as a lantern and use up as many batteries as they want.

I'm testing what I hope is a battery vampire right now. that I bought from a thrift shop for a dollar, it runs on 2 AAs and I am testing it with two batteries, one of which was "best used by" 2008, if I get 150 or more hours out of it, then I will make a diffuser for it and put it with my blackout lights, for my use, or as a loaner, if the battery leaks, it isn't important.


----------



## reppans (Nov 6, 2013)

*What is the attraction of multiple-AA lights?*

I did some 2xAA vampire testing with Alks and found it to be very good at popping cells (aka, battery "fart" - puffing out the rubber boots) via reverse charge.


----------



## Disciple (Nov 7, 2013)

*Re: What is the attraction of multiple-AA lights?*



greeny1 said:


> I don't agree with your original assertion that 18650 are cheaper than AA Nimh. In the UK this certainly is not the case. A decent 18650 (3400 mah Eagetec) is £14 each in the UK. 4 AA eneloops can be bought for £7.99 (sometimes cheaper). Good quality 7dayshop staycharged AA can be had for as little as £3.99 for 4. In addition many people already have an AA charger, whereas a decent LiIon charger is £20+.
> 
> So I bought a LD41 for my sister last year and gave her a pack of 7dayshop AA's to go with it (she already has charger). To buy a 18650 light I would have added approx £30 to the cost!!





dss_777 said:


> I finally made the jump to 18xxx rechargeables, and spent close to $100 on a charger and just 2 18650 cells. Being me, I went with an Xtar VP1 and AW protected cells cause it's what all the cool kids have. My goal is optimal performance, and I'm willing to pay for it.



I am looking at really different numbers. The lowest price I have found for a 4xAA pack of eneloops is about $11.50 shipped. For less than that I can get TWO protected 18650 2600mAh cells from FastTech (shipped), each with more capacity than the four eneloops combined. (I also got TWO protected Panasonic 3400mAh cells from Illumination Supply for under $22 shipped, if you want to compare eneloop XX prices.) My Xtar VP1 charger was $31.25. For $71 shipped I have 60 watt hours of storage from good cells (Sanyo, Samsung, Panasonic) and a good quality charger to match. Can you show me better with eneloops?

By the way, I have learned from other CPF threads that eneloops should be charged at between 0.5C and 1C for reliable detection of cycle completion so the bundled chargers are not good. More $$$ to board the eneloop train. (Again I acknowledge that I am the oddball to whom NiMH AA is exotic.)



AnAppleSnail said:


> Not all battery fires are bad batteries, chargers, or abuse. But gladly accepting a new failure mode into my life (New ways to burn the house down) is something I want to go into with Both Eyes Open. Several posts in that subforum are things that should have gone right and didn't. The same high energy density in Li-Ion cells makes them more dangerous when something does go wrong. Many failure modes are common between NiMH and Li-Ion chemistries failing. More chemical energy (And worse fumes) makes the Li-Ion more troubling to me.



This is very important to me. (You know I have asked you safety questions before.) Would you please show me where protected 18650 cells failed dangerously without serious mishandling? I _need_ to read that.



AnAppleSnail said:


> The 18650 is much larger than a single AA. My L3 L10 gives me days of light or an hour of plenty of light on one AA. That's convenience and a superior form factor for small-pocket carry than even a bare 18650 cell.



I specifically said multiple-AA lights because there is obvious utility in single-cell AA and AAA lights. Instead I wondered (originally) why anyone would choose 4xAA over 1x18650, and from purely a form factor perspective I still wonder. (BTW, I gave a 5mm LED converted mini Mag with lithium AA's to each immediate family member about six years ago so they would have something to reach for in need. I think most of them are still running on the original batteries!)



reppans said:


> As a ultra-light camper/traveler (and former NYC train commuter), I can often be away from my home and car, and can only depend on what I have on my person and in my bag, so the effectively endless back-up options of buying in stores and cannibalizing/scavenging cells are crucial to me. ... Depending upon how lightweight you like to travel, and where or how long you are going, buying as you go sometimes makes more sense than carrying enough spares and/or chargers.



Great point! Soon I'll update my original post with a "what I learned" section and this will be included.



reppans said:


> With regard to the McGyver thing, I guess I was really referring more to my 1xAA collection which will run single cells down to 0.9v (as a sub-/low- lumen enthusiast, the D40A was more a novelty purchase for me). But to the point of this thread and multi-cell AA lights, you do make a good point that 3xAAAAs (or AAA/AAs) can equally power your 18650. I guess the big difference is that, with the D40A, you won't need a Ziplock bag ;-). That said, for my ultimate SHTF light - a Quark AAX - I guess I would need a Ziplock when McGyvering CR123s and 18650s, but you gotta pick your spots.
> 
> Anyways I like these threads, lots of good discussion, thoughts, and respect going around.



Although a number of people have inferred from my original question that I have an anti-AA stance it's not true. I too consider AA lights an important part of an emergency plan. In my case they are the 5mm LED converted incan mini MagLites I mentioned above which appear to run for a very long time on lithium AA cells. Based on your "2xAA vampire testing" I may need to reconsider this, but I do like the fact that there is no driver to fail in the direct drive mini Mags and that 5mm LEDs are about as robust as it gets. (Does anyone else still have one of these conversions?)


----------



## AnAppleSnail (Nov 7, 2013)

*Re: What is the attraction of multiple-AA lights?*



Disciple said:


> This is very important to me. (You know I have asked you safety questions before.) Would you please show me where protected 18650 cells failed dangerously without serious mishandling? I _need_ to read that.



The legendary laptop fires were mismanufactured 18650 cells. However, ignoring safety issues caused by mistakes, carelessness, or negligence may be inappropriate. This depends on your situation. Most quality batteries are extensively counterfeited, leaving you (And even your vendors) little knowledge that a given cell is even reasonably well-made.

Most 18650 failures happen during charging or short-circuit events. These are the main times when a lot of energy is around. Excess energy + enclosed chemicals = bomb. A short-circuit risk is just a shrinkwrap-tear away, and careless charging is one long night up with a sick toddler away. I don't keep a lot of Li-Ion cells around for these reasons.

Here is some great reading on Li-Ion safety (failures) Click PDF with an overview of the most common failures. It's difficult to get good statistics on failure rates of hobbyist cells. Most people immediately dismiss all failures as user error... As if no users will ever make errors.


----------



## Theron (Nov 7, 2013)

*Re: What is the attraction of multiple-AA lights?*

I like CR123A and 18650 personally. CR123As are about the same size as AAAs and deliver more power and 18650s are about the same size as AAs and deliver more power. 

I do like some AAA lights though like the Fenix E05 and the Prometheus QR that's coming soon. AAAs are also better for remotes because they are thinner.


----------



## El Camino (Nov 7, 2013)

*Re: What is the attraction of multiple-AA lights?*

I like both. I typically EDC an 18560 light. I often keep a spare battery in an airtight container in my car. If I'm in a pinch, I can get some CR123s from most drug stores or Lowe's.

When I travel, I also take a long a 2x AA light, some spare eneloops, and a charger. In a pinch I can get Energizer lithiums or reguklar alkies (which I don't like, but it's better than nothing).

I usually have a 2x AAA light as a backup, in case I run out of juice, but can't find AAs. I like to have options.


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## dss_777 (Nov 7, 2013)

*Re: What is the attraction of multiple-AA lights?*



Disciple said:


> I am looking at really different numbers. The lowest price I have found for a 4xAA pack of eneloops is about $11.50 shipped. For less than that I can get TWO protected 18650 2600mAh cells from FastTech (shipped), each with more capacity than the four eneloops combined. (I also got TWO protected Panasonic 3400mAh cells from Illumination Supply for under $22 shipped, if you want to compare eneloop XX prices.) My Xtar VP1 charger was $31.25. For $71 shipped I have 60 watt hours of storage from good cells (Sanyo, Samsung, Panasonic) and a good quality charger to match. Can you show me better with eneloops?
> 
> ...
> 
> Although a number of people have inferred from my original question that I have an anti-AA stance it's not true. I too consider AA lights an important part of an emergency plan. In my case they are the 5mm LED converted incan mini MagLites I mentioned above which appear to run for a very long time on lithium AA cells. Based on your "2xAA vampire testing" I may need to reconsider this, but I do like the fact that there is no driver to fail in the direct drive mini Mags and that 5mm LEDs are about as robust as it gets. (Does anyone else still have one of these conversions?)



Just to make the point, I was referring to retail pricing on top tier rechargeable stuff, and comparing it to how many off the shelf Alkalines primaries you could get for that. We're the 1%-ers when it comes to flashlights, willing to invest in good tech and keep it running. While there are certainly value-priced options, it struck me how many AA batteries you could get for a basic rechargeable LiIon setup. And, since the well-performing lights that use them are also less expensive, you can get a great deal of use out of that combo.

FWIW, I'm also glad to have both, and see real value in both solutions. I'd also agree that 4xAA vs. 1x18650 definitely crosses the line as far as utility goes. While there is a case to be made (as many have said), for the AA equivalent of the 18650 lights, my preference is for 1x or 2xAA lights for the 99%-ers and other special use situations. Then, it's rechargeables for everything else expected to do serious work, regular duty, and/or perform at the higher levels we want and expect.

Just so you know, my winter travel plans require ultra-light packing. That means I'm following reppans lead and taking a single Fenix EO1 with a few AAA lithium primaries for backup. All the cool stuff stays at home. After the intial detox, I should be fine.


----------



## markr6 (Nov 7, 2013)

*Re: What is the attraction of multiple-AA lights?*

I don't like multiple-AA lights at all. But I love single-AA lights for the size and adequate output. Anything beyond that for runtime and output you might as well use an 18650.


----------



## reppans (Nov 7, 2013)

*What is the attraction of multiple-AA lights?*



dss_777 said:


> Just so you know, my winter travel plans require ultra-light packing. That means I'm following reppans lead and taking a single Fenix EO1 with a few AAA lithium primaries for backup. All the cool stuff stays at home. After the intial detox, I should be fine.



I'd suggest using a Preon P0 as a spare battery container for one of those cells - just in case you need insane runtime, and "two is one, one is none" and all. And carry a little piece of tinfoil in your wallet, in case all you can find is a 9V ;-)


----------



## litlmh (Nov 7, 2013)

*Re: What is the attraction of multiple-AA lights?*

For me, buying multiple-AA lights boils down to this thought process:
- I already have other lights that use AAs, so I have a bunch of NiMH LSD cells on hand.
- I always have spare AA NiMH LSD cells charged up at home, and in my backpack, because most of my devices use AA batteries, and my EDCs can run AA batteries. So I am already carrying spares in case I run out of power.
- I don't own any 18650 batteries, and I don't want to worry about Li-Co and Li-Mn chemistries, charging them, the potential for venting with flames, etc.
- Even if 3xAA or 4xAA is slightly larger than 1x18650, it's not significantly cumbersome, provides me as many lumens as I need, and I can just recharge them at the end of the day, so runtime is never an issue.

So there's my reasoning! :thumbsup:


----------



## Rexlion (Nov 7, 2013)

*Re: What is the attraction of multiple-AA lights?*

Suppose you're going camping in the boondocks, or you are faced with a lengthy power outage (days or weeks). You could find yourself having to push your cells to the limit and running them down completely, because you need the light. Well, if you exhaust a Li-Ion, you've probably trashed it. But if you run your Eneloops flat, no harm done.

And in those situations, chances are good that you can rob some AAs out of some other device to squeeze out more light when you need it. They're ubiquitous.

I use AA and AAA lights every day. The 18650 lights, well, they get occasional use.


----------



## dc38 (Nov 7, 2013)

*Re: What is the attraction of multiple-AA lights?*

To this question : Pardon me if I'm reading this wrong, but did you just describe a urine-cell? 

Yes, yes I did.


----------



## AMD64Blondie (Nov 8, 2013)

*Re: What is the attraction of multiple-AA lights?*

Although I like other battery types..(The HDS Rotary 200 I just ordered is a CR123A light)..I always reach for my AA lights first.

Case in point:my Nitecore EA4,a 4AA light.


----------



## Disciple (Nov 8, 2013)

*Re: What is the attraction of multiple-AA lights?*

AMD64Blondie: Why?


----------



## eff (Nov 8, 2013)

*Re: What is the attraction of multiple-AA lights?*



Disciple said:


> I don't think I understand the desirability of AA-cell lights. I was rather enthusiastic about the Sunwayman D40A until I realized that according to tests on http://lygte-info.dk four AA eneloops have less energy than a single 2600mah 18650 cell. The more expensive eneloop XX batteries have greater self-discharge, and still four are roughly matched by a single 3400mah 18650 cell. Further, 18650 cells can be purchased less expensively than I have been able to find four eneloops.



I don't know if it's been mentioned already, but another reason to prefer AA over lithium ion (note that I'm not talking about CR123 here) is readiness in case of a disaster scenario.

If you're using 18650 lights (or any other lithium rechargeable lights), you'll need to rotate your batteries regularly (to prevent them from swelling). With a small number of 18650s this may be easy. But with a fair number of batteries it might be more problematic. You'll then have to charge them for storage, at around 40 to 50% of their capacity (ie batteryuniversity). In the case of a hurricane you may get a few hours or more of warning, to charge them all to 100%. But in the case of an earthquake, etc... you might not have that time. So the question is, would you run around with only half charged batteries ?


You can always switch over to CR123. But in this case, better use a 1 cell flashlight, to prevent from having a cell reversal incident. The last thing you'd want while bugging out, is being injured or ending up with a damaged light. In the case of 1xCR123, you won't get the power of 16340, 18650, etc. .., and your options will be a bit more limited

Another solution would be to use lights with multiple AA, preferably Low self discharge Nimh.


----------



## markr6 (Nov 8, 2013)

*Re: What is the attraction of multiple-AA lights?*

I have a feeling we're getting off topic and merging into a "AA vs 18650" thread. Maybe the OP would like to clarify.

Are we talking about "multiple-AA lights" as in 2xAA, 3xAA etc? Or multiple-AA lights such as a handful of 1xAA lights? I'm assuming the former since he mentioned the 4xAA D40A.


----------



## Poppy (Nov 8, 2013)

*Re: What is the attraction of multiple Cell -AA lights?*



markr6 said:


> I have a feeling we're getting off topic and merging into a "AA vs 18650" thread. Maybe the OP would like to clarify.
> 
> Are we talking about "multiple-AA lights" as in 2xAA, 3xAA etc? Or multiple-AA lights such as a handful of 1xAA lights? I'm assuming the former since he mentioned the 4xAA D40A.


markr6,
The OP already clarified that he meant MULTIPLE CELL AA lights in post# 32


> > Originally Posted by *Poppy*
> >
> > No one is arguing whether a single or dual cell AA light has value. If you read my post, I stated that I carry in my car a 18650 charger, AND a AA/AAA charger. I also carry AA and AAA lights.
> > *
> ...


----------



## Disciple (Nov 9, 2013)

*Re: What is the attraction of multiple-AA lights?*



eff said:


> If you're using 18650 lights (or any other lithium rechargeable lights), you'll need to rotate your batteries regularly (to prevent them from swelling).



I am not familiar with this issue. Would you please explain it to me? I have read that storing Lithium Ion cells fully charged causes them to age faster (inquiry) but I haven't heard of swelling. Is swelling a sign of aging? Is there danger in it?



eff said:


> You can always switch over to CR123. But in this case, better use a 1 cell flashlight, to prevent from having a cell reversal incident. The last thing you'd want while bugging out, is being injured or ending up with a damaged light.



As far as I know this problem has not been recurrent with US made CR123A's from the same batch and both new. If you have information to the contrary I want to know because at the moment I am comfortable using US CR123A's in 2 cell lights. (Though I would not use a 2xCR123A headlamp.)


----------



## eff (Nov 9, 2013)

*Re: What is the attraction of multiple-AA lights?*



Disciple said:


> I am not familiar with this issue. Would you please explain it to me? I have read that storing Lithium Ion cells fully charged causes them to age faster (inquiry) but I haven't heard of swelling. Is swelling a sign of aging? Is there danger in it?



This issue can occur when the lithium battery is overcharged, overdischarged. It can also occur on li ion charged up to 100%, and stored for a long period of time. I had some 18650 panasonic red label, that were initially charged to 100%, and I forgot about them for about 1 year or 2 . After this rather long period of time, I decided to check on them. And to my surprise, they had bubbles and there were some small leaks under the plastic package (FYI I have no idea when they started bubbling). 

Next time you purchase a brand new 18650, 16340, etc... simply do a battery check with a multimeter. You'll see that you won't get a 4.2v reading (100% charged) but rather a value around 3.75-3.8 volt, which indicates that your battery has been charged for storage (40%-60%).

I'm not 100% sure there's some danger to this bubbling/swelling issue. I did not have any venting w/ flame.



Disciple said:


> As far as I know this problem has not been recurrent with US made CR123A's from the same batch and both new. If you have information to the contrary I want to know because at the moment I am comfortable using US CR123A's in 2 cell lights. (Though I would not use a 2xCR123A headlamp.)



Here's some info on cell reversal : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rechargeable_battery
I never had a cell reversal incident, but rather got my information from cpf threads. 
Here's a a link to one of these incident (I think the guy was using CR123 cells from Surefire) :
http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb...6-123-Primary-Lithium-cell-info-testing-links


I'm not dissing the lithium technology (I do have a few 18650, CR123 lights). But after my bubbling batteries incident, I decided to charge my lithium cells to only 50%, and rely mostly on AA and AAA when I'm not at home.


----------



## mcnair55 (Nov 9, 2013)

*Re: What is the attraction of multiple-AA lights?*

@eff

Buying and running a light should be a pleasurable experience,i should not have to check voltages with volt meters and all that other geeky stuff.If i buy an 18650 light this afternoon from Maplins in the UK there will be no talk of telling me i need to buy a volt meter.

I just want to use it and enjoy it and not think of it as an Exocet missile as the anorak crowd do,sometimes people spoil there own hobby for no real reason,surely common sense is order of the day.


----------



## eff (Nov 9, 2013)

*Re: What is the attraction of multiple-AA lights?*



mcnair55 said:


> @eff
> 
> Buying and running a light should be a pleasurable experience,i should not have to check voltages with volt meters and all that other geeky stuff.If i buy an 18650 light this afternoon from Maplins in the UK there will be no talk of telling me i need to buy a volt meter.
> 
> I just want to use it and enjoy it and not think of it as an Exocet missile as the anorak crowd do,sometimes people spoil there own hobby for no real reason,surely common sense is order of the day.



I did not want to spoil anybody's experience with li ion flashlights. I simply replied to Disciple's questions. That's all.


----------



## dc38 (Nov 9, 2013)

*Re: What is the attraction of multiple-AA lights?*



mcnair55 said:


> @eff
> 
> 
> Buying and running a light should be a pleasurable experience,i should not have to check voltages with volt meters and all that other geeky stuff.If i buy an 18650 light this afternoon from Maplins in the UK there will be no talk of telling me i need to buy a volt meter.
> ...



ID like to think that every hobby has a level of responsibility and pride involved, and flashaholism is no exception. That's why we try to buy the best we can afford. Hobby chargers, power cells, even grease and lube! There's an inherent joy when you sit down to a personal evaluation of your equipment to check for consistency and reliability, much like a good boss does with his employees. The more you get to know your gear, the more comfortable you will become using them. You will not only learn their quirks and their strengths, but their personalities as well. Should anybody assume that the user experience is "ruined" by meticulous attention to our lights, they could not be more wrong. Especially with abused gear(combat tested and proven) and specialized cells, the most reliable troopers need a few check ups to ensure they are in good operating order.


----------



## gravelmonkey (Nov 9, 2013)

*Re: What is the attraction of multiple-AA lights?*



mcnair55 said:


> @eff
> 
> Buying and running a light should be a pleasurable experience,i should not have to check voltages with volt meters and all that other geeky stuff.If i buy an 18650 light this afternoon from Maplins in the UK there will be no talk of telling me i need to buy a volt meter.
> 
> I just want to use it and enjoy it and not think of it as an Exocet missile as the anorak crowd do,sometimes people spoil there own hobby for no real reason,surely common sense is order of the day.



So angry! No-one's _forcing_ you to measure voltages, it's just common sense . If you just want that fit and forget approach, why not just use multiple NiMh AA's?

Single cell light, good quality 18650's and a decent charger are pretty safe combination, I'm not quite sure it is completely 'idiot proof' consumer tech though.

Multiple 18650 lights, especially with unprotected cells NEED measuring unless you're desperate for a trip to A&E or worse... It's not a missile, just a pipe bomb.


----------



## Disciple (Nov 9, 2013)

*Re: What is the attraction of multiple-AA lights?*

eff, thank you. Serious stuff to think about.

mcnair55, I don't believe you need to check cell voltage for use in a single-cell 18650 light, which is most common. If I understood the charging-in-parallel thread correctly parallel 18650 configurations should also be pretty safe. Some chargers such as the Xtar VP1 that I have include voltage meters now. And I guess I have to ask: what do you mean by "anorak crowd" anyway?


----------



## cerbie (Nov 9, 2013)

*Re: What is the attraction of multiple-AA lights?*



Disciple said:


> How often does this practically result in a superior light?


How often does it result in an _inferior_ light? Only during extended power outages do I ever find the total energy in the battery to matter, and my solution for that is spare cells. When a single charge won't do, spare cells include charged rechargeables.



> Can you point to a case where this results in a superior form factor?


Any time someone buys 2xAA flashlight, in part for the thinness of the body? If you don't have pockets made for tools (all of my pants do ), CR123 can be just a bit too wide, compared to slim AA bodies. Or, in the case of soup can or box shapes, they might fit in the hand better, for some. Just as I find 25-30mm bodies to be about right for my hand, others find wider, or thinner, or flash/flat shapes, etc..



> Given the especially poor performance of alkaline batteries in cold weather I think I'd reach for just about anything else.


Like Lithium AAs?  Even in the South, in barely freezing temperatures, I've had alkalines and NIMHs fail me, but then be fine after arming up. Lithium types also perform poorly in cold weather, but they _do perform_.



> I find it hard to believe that anyone planning for a "Katrina" would plan on running to the store to scrap for batteries, or raiding remote controls and toys for that matter. _If you are planning ahead lay in a supply!_


AAs, AAAs, and 9Vs will be *gone* ASAP. I've seen itself, with the forecast only having a small chance of a tail of a hurricane coming in, before. What you (and family and neighbors) have at home is what you'll have to work with. Scavenging from remotes I have done, and will do again, before using new cells. Part of the thing there is that AAs can feed multiple devices, so you can have one large stash, big enough to handle days without power, but small enough to go through before they become out of date.



> As acknowledged a common battery for all devices is a powerful incentive. I am apparently the oddball not owning AA devices. (Don't most cameras have Lithium Polymer packs now?)


Yes, quite the oddball in that. Most cameras use their own proprietary batteries, but they are still readily available using AAs, and those that use AA NIMH for their cameras often don't even consider any other power source, now that they are accustomed to it.


----------



## samgab (Nov 9, 2013)

*Re: What is the attraction of multiple-AA lights?*



cerbie said:


> ...
> 
> 
> > _As acknowledged a common battery for all devices is a powerful incentive. I am apparently the oddball not owning AA devices. (Don't most cameras have Lithium Polymer packs now?)_
> ...



Just one point further to the above, many people who use the kind of DSLR cameras that use Li-ion battery packs also use additional flash/es, many of which use multiple AA's (and NiMH cells are the fuel of choice for those too, because they suck current in high bursts, and use a lot of energy. So many of the subset of camera users that have cameras that don't use AA's are still big users of NiMH AA's for this reason). So they'd also have a store of spare, charged AA cells - usable in a multi-AA flashlight in a time of need.


----------



## Poppy (Nov 9, 2013)

*Re: What is the attraction of multiple-AA lights?*



eff said:


> > Originally Posted by *Disciple*
> >
> > I am not familiar with this issue. Would you please explain it to me? I have read that storing Lithium Ion cells fully charged causes them to age faster (inquiry) but I haven't heard of swelling. Is swelling a sign of aging? Is there danger in it?
> 
> ...



I read through much of the material at Battery University regarding Li-Ion cells, and I agree with Disciple's comment above. One of the factors leading to aging is the average percentage of charge they are stored and used at. Nothing was mentioned at Battery U, nor on the wiki linked to above, that storing a battery fully charged will lead to battery damage. eff admits "(FYI I have no idea when they started bubbling)" I'd like to suggest that they were most likely *damaged prior* to being put away.

Cell reversal type Battery damage occurs from over discharging a battery, typically by way of putting them into a charger backwards, or by having unmatched cells in series, (like in multi-cell lights). 

Most of the fire incidents listed in the CPF battery section are of CR123's in flashlights *in series*. OR they were *purposefully over-discharged as part of an experiment*. IIRC most of those threads are from 2006, or earlier.



> Next time you purchase a brand new 18650, 16340, etc... simply do a battery check with a multimeter. You'll see that you won't get a 4.2v reading (100% charged) but rather a value around 3.75-3.8 volt, which indicates that your battery has been charged for storage (40%-60%).


Storing at 40%-60% is to maximize the battery life.

I store mine at about 90% charge. I want them ready to go when I need them.


----------



## samgab (Nov 10, 2013)

*Re: What is the attraction of multiple-AA lights?*



Poppy said:


> ...Storing at 40%-60% is to maximize the battery life.
> 
> I store mine at about 90% charge. I want them ready to go when I need them.



Very good common sense approach. What's the use of a cell that lasts for years and years but can't be used at the moments you need it? I'd also rather take a small hit on longevity of cells for the functionality of them being instantly ready to go when I need them.


----------



## Poppy (Nov 10, 2013)

*Re: What is the attraction of multiple-AA lights?*

Disciple,
I want to thank you for starting this thread.
At first I thought it was a trolling thread, but you convinced me otherwise.

After reading the first 30 posts or so, I softened my position on multi-cell AA lights. However, so many people missed the point, which was... why?, 4 cell - 6 cell or 8 cell AA lights, and went on and on about the wonders of the AA battery, and its energy sipping single and dual cell lights, and having the ability to scavenge partially depleted cells from toys, radios, and walkie-talkies; that I took a second look at my AA/18650 battery strategy.

I have, I think, 20 made in China, NiMH AA's. They self discharge and are of low capacity. Not impressive 
Reading here of the quality of Eneloops, I bought 16 AAs, and 8 AAAs. (when I find them on sale, I'll buy more)

My quality AAA is a Thrunite Ti (single cell)
My quality AA is a 2 cell Mini Maglight LED 2 mode with blinkies.
I also have a few cheap 2 AA rayovacs.

I also have head lamps of the AA, AAA, and 18650 variety.

The eneloops, while impressive are in various states of discharge all over the house. I'm not even sure where they all are. I do have four fully charged ones in a drawer in my desk. In the event of a power outage, I wouldn't want to have to go around the house, pulling toys apart, or remotes, etc, looking for them.

On the other hand, I have 17* 18650 batteries @ ~ 90% charge, and I know where each and every one of them is.


----------



## Disciple (Nov 10, 2013)

*Re: What is the attraction of multiple-AA lights?*



cerbie said:


> How often does it result in an _inferior_ light? Only during extended power outages do I ever find the total energy in the battery to matter, and my solution for that is spare cells. When a single charge won't do, spare cells include charged rechargeables.



You never run down a set of cells in normal use? I find that surprising. Do you usually avoid using the "high" mode on your lights? If so why not choose a smaller, lighter one for the task at hand?



cerbie said:


> Any time someone buys 2xAA flashlight, in part for the thinness of the body? If you don't have pockets made for tools (all of my pants do ), CR123 can be just a bit too wide, compared to slim AA bodies. Or, in the case of soup can or box shapes, they might fit in the hand better, for some. Just as I find 25-30mm bodies to be about right for my hand, others find wider, or thinner, or flash/flat shapes, etc.



Another gap in my collection I suppose. The classic Mini Mag is a nice size, but not really much different from slim 2xCR123A 18650 torches in use. I don't have any 1xAA lights in my collection at the moment, but the ones I've handled seemed no more convenient than CR123A lights. AAA is in a different class of course.



cerbie said:


> Like Lithium AAs?  Even in the South, in barely freezing temperatures, I've had alkalines and NIMHs fail me, but then be fine after arming up. Lithium types also perform poorly in cold weather, but they _do perform_.



I really like the L91 lithium AA's. As a result of this thread I intend to get a supply of those.



Poppy said:


> Disciple,
> I want to thank you for starting this thread.
> At first I thought it was a trolling thread, but you convinced me otherwise.



You're welcome. As stated I don't troll, and I have learned a lot from it.

Do you worry about the lifespan of those 17 18650's? Should they last only 3-4 years at your chosen charge level are you prepared to replace them that often?


----------



## eff (Nov 10, 2013)

*Re: What is the attraction of multiple-AA lights?*



Poppy said:


> I read through much of the material at Battery University regarding Li-Ion cells, and I agree with Disciple's comment above. One of the factors leading to aging is the average percentage of charge they are stored and used at. Nothing was mentioned at Battery U, nor on the wiki linked to above, that storing a battery fully charged will lead to battery damage. eff admits "(FYI I have no idea when they started bubbling)" I'd like to suggest that they were most likely *damaged prior* to being put away.


No way to know if they've been damaged at some point before storage, even though they've always been treated gently, and have always worked perfectly.
I agree there's not much data on the web regarding 100% charged lithium batteries, that have been stored away for a long time.
The only information I could dig on the subject was a video posted on youtube.
The video was posted by a retired engineer in N-Z, doing RC models. The video is about LIPOs (storage explanation starts at 12:00, and fully charged lipo info at 13:40). Here's the link : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZJHlJYDJohc

The information given in the video did match what I did and what happened to my 18650s.


----------



## mcnair55 (Nov 10, 2013)

*Re: What is the attraction of multiple-AA lights?*



Disciple said:


> eff, thank you. Serious stuff to think about.
> 
> mcnair55, I don't believe you need to check cell voltage for use in a single-cell 18650 light, which is most common. If I understood the charging-in-parallel thread correctly parallel 18650 configurations should also be pretty safe. Some chargers such as the Xtar VP1 that I have include voltage meters now. And I guess I have to ask: what do you mean by "anorak crowd" anyway?



The anorak crowd my dear chap is you me and other members of any specialist hobby board,we all go so deep into the hobby we clinically examine everything we do and read.Grease and lube for example,you need a first class honours degree to understand it. When you think about it all you need is a decent lube that is o ring and electrical safe nothing more and nothing less yet you will read countless threads recommend this that and the other,all very confusing for the newbie.

How often do you read the guy nipping out shopping and armed to the teeth with an edc and three back up lights,he is going to buy groceries not on the next covert ops mission in the desert.

Anoraks and i include myself.


----------



## Disciple (Nov 10, 2013)

*Re: What is the attraction of multiple-AA lights?*



eff said:


> Here's the link : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZJHlJYDJohc
> 
> The information given in the video did match what I did and what happened to my 18650s.







Interesting, but for now I'll still keep my cells at about 90%. We'll see what happens. :sweat:


----------



## Disciple (Nov 10, 2013)

*Re: What is the attraction of multiple-AA lights?*



mcnair55 said:


> The anorak crowd my dear chap is you me and other members of any specialist hobby board.



Got it. I like to "geek out" on stuff; what can I say.


----------



## reppans (Nov 10, 2013)

*What is the attraction of multiple-AA lights?*

Regarding Li-ion charging and storing - 

I always found this military study of different charging habits to be very useful, and it does support Battery University findings as well. While it doesn't exactly address storage, I consider average state of charge during long term usage to be a fair proxy. The big Li-ion killers I takeaway from the chart and BU, in order, are:

- maintaining higher average states of charge
- charging to 100%
- deeper charge/discharge cycles
- and of course the usual # of cycles/age thing. 

I don't care as much about flashlight batts since they're relatively cheap and easily replaced, but I do closely manage charging on my smartphone/tablet that have non-removable batteries, and more frequent cycling. I use a light timer to cycle on a 70-30-70 basis (since I average 40% per day) and set it to start charging on an hour or 2 before I wake.


----------



## Poppy (Nov 10, 2013)

*Re: What is the attraction of multiple-AA lights?*



Disciple said:


> Do you worry about the lifespan of those 17 18650's? Should they last only 3-4 years at your chosen charge level are you prepared to replace them that often?


The percent charge is only ONE of four categories of things that kill a cell, the others being AGE, TEMPERATURE/HEAT, and charge cycles. I believe that heat is the most destructive, coupled with percent charge. I keep my cells in storage in the refrigerator.


eff,
That was an interesting video, thanks for presenting it. I'd like to point out that cells for R/C flying are typically LiPO cells, because in part, they are lighter. Their chemistry is a little bit different from the typical 18650 battery, and therefore the statements in the video are not necessarily directly transferable.... maybe. I really don't know.


----------



## Disciple (Nov 10, 2013)

*Re: What is the attraction of multiple-AA lights?*



Poppy said:


> So I guess the discussion comes down to this:
> Do you have extra cells that you can store that you can charge up:
> 1. in anticipation of an impending event (such as a predicted hurricane), or,
> 2. even in the event of an unexpected outage, you can charge them while using those that are in your daily rotation?
> Again, I am assuming that you have a car charger for those cells that are in long term storage, so that they can be charged when the grid is down.



No offense intended but I suggest you take this to a new thread as it is off topic for mine. I'd like to keep this one concise enough to be useful to future readers.


----------



## eff (Nov 10, 2013)

*Re: What is the attraction of multiple-AA lights?*



Poppy said:


> eff,
> That was an interesting video, thanks for presenting it. I'd like to point out that cells for R/C flying are typically LiPO cells, because in part, they are lighter. Their chemistry is a little bit different from the typical 18650 battery, and therefore the statements in the video are not necessarily directly transferable.



Ok thanks for the info . All this stuff does not prevent me from using my lithium lights, it's just that I'm a bit more careful now


----------



## Petir (Nov 10, 2013)

*Re: What is the attraction of multiple-AA lights?*

Off topic question: how do you do that mcgyver thingy with a 9V battery and tinfoil?
I did not watch the entire TV show....


----------



## Disciple (Nov 10, 2013)

*Re: What is the attraction of multiple-AA lights?*



Petir said:


> Off topic question: how do you do that mcgyver thingy with a 9V battery and tinfoil?
> I did not watch the entire TV show....



Damnit guys, it's M*a*cGyver.

If you crack open most 9V batteries you get six smaller cells in series, each about "AAAA" size. I presume tinfoil would be used to extend the length of the cell to match a AA, then the whole thing would be wrapped in e.g. paper to keep it together, insulate, and fill the battery tube. I've never done it. With a bit more care you could keep three of the cells in series and replace an 18500 or 18650 cell. (Only for very low power of course.)


----------



## cerbie (Nov 10, 2013)

*Re: What is the attraction of multiple-AA lights?*



Disciple said:


> You never run down a set of cells in normal use? I find that surprising. Do you usually avoid using the "high" mode on your lights? If so why not choose a smaller, lighter one for the task at hand?


I try to use what I need, with multimode lights, and don't buy pocket rockets--my work flashlight is a <100lm (by comparison) M61LL 219 in a G2, to give you an idea. What I mainly avoid are flashlights that can't hold enough Wh inside them to give at least a couple hours of constant on time, not counting small single-cell torches. A mutli-18650 "soup can" or the like would be what I would go to if I wanted 1000lm, FI, rather than 1x123 or 2x123/1x18650.


----------



## reppans (Nov 10, 2013)

*What is the attraction of multiple-AA lights?*



Petir said:


> Off topic question: how do you do that mcgyver thingy with a 9V battery and tinfoil?
> I did not watch the entire TV show....



Includes using AAAs, CR123s, 18650s (or any other cell <19mm diameter).... and also the reverse - using flashlight cells (ie, 14500s, 3v CRAAs) in other AA devices. Course, having the right AA light helps ;-)

clicky


----------



## Poppy (Nov 10, 2013)

*Re: What is the attraction of multiple-AA lights?*



Disciple said:


> No offense intended but I suggest you take this to a new thread as it is off topic for mine. I'd like to keep this one concise enough to be useful to future readers.



Sorry Disciple,
I thought that the thread was already off topic with so much discussion of single cell AAs.

I'll edit my posts.  easy enough


----------



## RetroTechie (Nov 10, 2013)

*Re: What is the attraction of multiple-AA lights?*

Just wondering how I'd do if I were one of the people hit by that cyclone in the Philippines... :mecry:Say for example, your house reduced to rubble, dead people laying about, power out everywhere, and 200+ km/h winds still going on.

When you need light in such a case, *ANY* working light+battery combo would do (for starters). So in that case, redundancy would rule: many flashlights & batteries scattered around the house to maximize you chances of finding one. Sharing the same type of battery across flashlights (+ other devices!) would help in that scenario. When you get to the point of scavenging other devices, single-cell lights rule as the first matching battery would do. And no difference there between (charged) rechargeables and primaries, until you've also retrieved a charger *and* a backup power source like a generator or 12V car battery. +1 for primaries there as they are cheaper & generally keep charge longer, so it's easier to scatter enough of those around the house & find them in useable condition when disaster strikes.

Outside such extreme conditions, it's more of matter of taste, typical uses, and how a light complements your existing inventory. Personally I have a preference for smallish single-cell lights, rechargeable cells, and having at least one for each type of battery would be nice. But can understand the attraction of a 4x AA light for someone who has AA Eneloops everywhere...


----------



## ven (Nov 11, 2013)

*Re: What is the attraction of multiple-AA lights?*

For me there are a few reasons in choosing an AA light. Size and compactness is good on the AA lights in general,can still get a good powered light of easy to get hold of batts. I get free AAs in work(along with AAA/C/D ) so that helps,to add if i like the flashlight then i will buy it,simple as that(within reason obv).I got an ea4 for work(along with a t7),however i thought its too nice to be dropped,covered in oil and dust, so it came home and eneloops now fuel it.Also bought the ea8 with same mindset and that is at home too again with eneloops.Using an 18650 in work is not practical for me for charging/safety reasons so AAA or AA cell are better suited.


----------



## Jash (Nov 11, 2013)

*Re: What is the attraction of multiple-AA lights?*



Disciple said:


> You never run down a set of cells in normal use? I find that surprising. Do you usually avoid using the "high" mode on your lights? If so why not choose a smaller, lighter one for the task at hand?



Why is it surprising to never fully discharge a set of cells from normal use? That's like running your car to empty. I never want to run out of juice in a flashlight, unless it's under circumstances that are labelled a disaster, upon which the spare cells are used to keep everything lit up.

As for never using "high" mode, well, that's like driving everywhere with your engine always at the redline. Sometimes you need it, mostly you don't. Probably why I haven't bought anything brighter than a TK41 as I use the turbo mode maybe once or twice during a walk at night, and usually just to see how awesome turbo mode indeed is. 

For anything but S&R I find 200-300lms all I need for night activities. Even when walking the dog it's usually around the 150-250lm mark I find most comfortable on the eyes. Otherwise there's too much eye strain between the beam you're shining and the surrounding darkness.

And to keep this post on topic - I think the 4xAA plastic body on the LD40/E40 is probably the most comfortable body style to hold in your hand. Another reason why multiple AA cell lights have attraction.


----------



## mongogeek (Nov 18, 2013)

*Re: What is the attraction of multiple-AA lights?*



Poppy said:


> On the other hand, I have 17* 18650 batteries @ ~ 90% charge, and I know where each and every one of them is.



I love it!

My experience with AA flashlights has been mediocre. Sure AA batteries are getting cheap and better, but for me and my "green" attitude, I like to recharge and recycle my batteries. I have bought a dozen or so AA energizer rechargables with mixed results. They are good for a few things like the kids electronics toys and flashlights. Sometimes nice to have around for Christmas gifts and such, but when it comes to my flashlights, I want something that works.

Call me a cheap a$$, but my interest in 18650 cells came about from a few laptop batteries I had from my old company laptops. I decided to tear them apart to see what's inside and what I could recycle. Boy was I surprised at the number of cells and that very few of them were unusable. I must have 12 or 15 cells laying around for me to swap into flashlights when I need too. I opted to spend a little extra care in charging them, storing them and using them since they are unprotected, but they seem to perform almost as well as the protected 3000mah cells I've bought in the past.

Ok, so my drawers are stocked with AA, AAA, 18650, C and D cell flashlights, but I prefer the 18650s over all the others.


----------



## Treeguy (Nov 18, 2013)

*Re: What is the attraction of multiple-AA lights?*

Why AA? As Henry David Thoreau said, “Simplify, simplify!”

Though it may be boring, having mulitple flashlights of the same type is best in an emergency situation. And having those flashlights function on batteries that can be bought or salvaged almost anywhere is even better.

When things get rough for a short period, being fancy is fine. But when things get funky for days and even weeks, a simple plan is the best plan. Right now, 20,000 people are without power in my area. (I’m amazed I haven’t lost it yet.) And twice in the last year we’ve had storms that left fairly large areas where I am without power for up to two-weeks – once in the winter and once in the summer. Just buying gas at the one open station was a twenty-kilometer trip and then you had line ups.

A fancy flashlight is great for having on you when you are out and about. But in the emergency drawer, reliable AA lights with lots of batteries and hundreds of hours of available usage is the way to go. Simplify, simplify!


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## Poppy (Nov 18, 2013)

*Re: What is the attraction of multiple-AA lights?*



Treeguy said:


> Why AA? As Henry David Thoreau said, “Simplify, simplify!”
> 
> Though it may be boring, having mulitple flashlights of the same type is best in an emergency situation. And having those flashlights function on batteries that can be bought or salvaged almost anywhere is even better.
> 
> ...


With all due respect, I think that it has been pretty clearly stated in multiple threads that in wide spread power outages, and other emergencies, batteries are NOT FOR SALE. You had better have them before the emergency, OR have rechargeables, and a means to charge them, especially if things "get funky for days and even weeks!"

Once you have rechargeables, and a means to charge them, then for all intents and purposes, it doesn't matter which battery format you choose. For example, I just bought a 3 mode 5% 40% and 100% output levels, single 18650 battery light driven at 1400 ma. I estimate that the 5% level will deliver about 40 lumens for about 36 hours on one battery. That's almost a week @ 40 lumens. You could probably do about the same with a 6 cell or 8 cell AA light.


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## sflate (Nov 18, 2013)

*Re: What is the attraction of multiple-AA lights?*

It's true that during an emergency many stores will run out of AA batteries first, which is exactly why I DO keep AA flashlights around. Years ago I standardized on only buying devices that ran on AA batteries if at all possible. At any given moment I have a digital camera, AM/FM/Shortwave Radio, Police Scanner, Tekcharge 4AA emergency charger w/USB jack for iPhone or GPS, and a host of other devices. I also carry adapters to convert AA's to C and D cell size. I carry a Fenix LD22 in my pocket (2AA), a Nitecore EA4 (4AA) and an 8AA to 2D adapter in a cutdown/bored out maglite with a Superbulb with me because more often than not I'm not looking for batteries to run my flashlights but usually looking for batteries for one of my other devices. I mostly use the LD22 but always know I have the EA4 and Maglite with me to hold my spare batteries for my other devices. And, oh yeah, I sometimes use those as flashlights too.  Years ago I used to carry little plastic containers of AA batteries as spares but soon realized I could carry another devices as my spares. The Tekcharge USB charger for example is only slightly larger than a 4AA plastic holder. And the Nitecore EA4 is pretty small too. May as well carry those than a useless plastic holder. That's my theory anyways.


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## braddy (Nov 18, 2013)

*Re: What is the attraction of multiple-AA lights?*

Even if you assume that you can't be one of the people who helped clear the shelves of the AAs and AAAs, then they will also be the batteries shipped in from stores outside of the emergency area.

Plus other people have them for trade or for sale who do have a good supply, or bought in bulk and helped clear the shelves, there is an advantage in a battery being so common that most everyone has some, it can be a sort of currency.

AAs are so common that even the kid's closets and grandma's house has them laying around, many people buy them in bulk, and they are stashed in things all around the house, like remotes, clocks, radios, they are interchangeable when switching from lanterns to flashlight, even cooking stoves like the ZZStove use them.

Rechargeable AAs are easier to charge than 18650s because so many chargers and car chargers do it, including the little solar lanterns out in the yard.

For emergencies, I would feel naked without lights that take the ubiquitous AA, which means they also take the AAA of course, it is one reason that I am glad that one of my test meters takes AA batteries.

If I had to give up either my 18650s or my AAs for a long term emergency, it would be the 18650s.


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## carlb (Nov 18, 2013)

So I'm going to buy my first good light. I'm not a collector, I just want a good bright light that I can carry or keep in the truck/house. I was all ready to order the fenix ld-35 then I read this thread. Should I get the fenix Ld-41-xm instead since it takes aa batteries?

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N900A using Tapatalk


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## Poppy (Nov 18, 2013)

*Re: What is the attraction of multiple-AA lights?*



sflate said:


> It's true that during an emergency many stores will run out of AA batteries first, which is exactly why I DO keep AA flashlights around.


During Sandy, for some reason, some parts of my state ran out of C and D batteries, and other parts AA batteries faster, however it wasn't long before the only batteries available were button cells, CR123s (at $3-$4 each) and 9V.



> Years ago I standardized on only buying devices that ran on AA batteries if at all possible. At any given moment I have a digital camera, AM/FM/Shortwave Radio, Police Scanner, Tekcharge 4AA emergency charger w/USB jack for iPhone or GPS, and a host of other devices. I also carry adapters to convert AA's to C and D cell size. I carry a Fenix LD22 in my pocket (2AA), a Nitecore EA4 (4AA) and an 8AA to 2D adapter in a cutdown/bored out maglite with a Superbulb with me because more often than not I'm not looking for batteries to run my flashlights but usually looking for batteries for one of my other devices. I mostly use the LD22 but always know I have the EA4 and Maglite with me to hold my spare batteries for my other devices. And, oh yeah, I sometimes use those as flashlights too.  Years ago I used to carry little plastic containers of AA batteries as spares but soon realized I could carry another devices as my spares. The Tekcharge USB charger for example is only slightly larger than a 4AA plastic holder. And the Nitecore EA4 is pretty small too. May as well carry those than a useless plastic holder. That's my theory anyways.


reppans made this point earlier, and I agree. 

Personally, I am looking forward to the day when all those "tools" are offered in the 18650 format so that I can standardize all in one cell.


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## Poppy (Nov 18, 2013)

*Re: What is the attraction of multiple-AA lights?*



braddy said:


> Even if you assume that you can't be one of the people who helped clear the shelves of the AAs and AAAs, then they will also be the batteries shipped in from stores outside of the emergency area.



If I helped clear the shelves, it would be to help my neighbors who didn't prepare.
However since I have enough rechargeables and lights to supply my house, and four other neighbors, or more, I'd probably leave them for the more unfortunate.

After Sandy, the shelves were BARE for two weeks. They may have shipped batteries in from other stores, but if they were, they were bought up FASTER THAN IMMEDIATELY.



> Plus other people have them for trade or for sale who do have a good supply, or bought in bulk and helped clear the shelves, there is an advantage in a battery being so common that most everyone has some, it can be a sort of currency.


I'm all smiles 
"What? A dollar a piece? Hmmm... Sorry, no. I have rechargeables."



> AAs are so common that even the kid's closets and grandma's house has them laying around, many people buy them in bulk, and they are stashed in things all around the house, like remotes, clocks, radios, they are interchangeable when switching from lanterns to flashlight, even cooking stoves like the ZZStove use them.



I have AAs, AAAs, Cs, Ds, and 6V SLAs lying around the house. So what? I also have four cars with fully charged 12V batteries, and an extra in the garage. So what?... well they can be used to recharge smaller batteries... AAs and 18650s etc.


> Rechargeable AAs are easier to charge than 18650s beco many chargers and car chargers do it, including the little solar lanterns out in the yard.



The NitecoreIntellicharger works out of the car, and can charge both AAs and 18650s at the same time. 
I have car chargers. One is for LiIon, such as for the 18650's
The other for NiMH, my AAs and AAAs.


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## thedoc007 (Nov 18, 2013)

*Re: What is the attraction of multiple-AA lights?*

Additional thanks to Disciple for starting this thread. I just read through the entire thing, and it was informative. It has not changed my mind in the least about 18650s being the best available cell, but I do better appreciate why others like AA better (given different priorities). To each her own! Either type is leaps and bounds better than it was even 10 years ago, and will cover most needs and then some. Nice to have options...


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## braddy (Nov 18, 2013)

*Re: What is the attraction of multiple-AA lights?*



carlb said:


> So I'm going to buy my first good light. I'm not a collector, I just want a good bright light that I can carry or keep in the truck/house. I was all ready to order the fenix ld-35 then I read this thread. Should I get the fenix Ld-41-xm instead since it takes aa batteries?
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N900A using Tapatalk



What are you looking for in the light?


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## braddy (Nov 18, 2013)

*Re: What is the attraction of multiple-AA lights?*

I have all the 18650 I need, I edc a PD35, and I own the Nitecorecharger with car plug, but as an almost lifelong survivalist and prepper, I would give up my 18650s before my AA/AAAs, which I count as the same battery almost, since I own many AAA to AA adapters, and D and C adapters of course for the AAs.


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## phosphor (Nov 18, 2013)

*Re: What is the attraction of multiple-AA lights?*

By implication a disaster offers uncertainty and unpredictability. I bet there were plenty of folks in the areas struck hardest by the recent typhoon in the Philippines who had extra batteries of all types stashed way for an emergency. Good luck trying to get to them when your dwelling is buried in rubble, and restocking is impossible because every retail establishment has been demolished. My point is you can be prepared, but one will still be none.....and sometimes twenty will be none as well !

Buy whatever makes sense and hope for the best.....because no matter how well you prepare Mother Nature can throw you a curve ball that will FU your best laid plans.

I mostly own AA lights. I just like 'um. I don't pretent I'm any better prepared than the man that owns a light that runs on 18650s.


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## carlb (Nov 19, 2013)

*Re: What is the attraction of multiple-AA lights?*



braddy said:


> What are you looking for in the light?



Able to carry it fairly comfortably, dependable, decent battery life. Needs to be bright. More or less just want one good light to cover most of my needs. Camping, out in the yard at night, power outages, etc...

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N900A using Tapatalk


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## Treeguy (Nov 19, 2013)

*Re: What is the attraction of multiple-AA lights?*



Poppy said:


> With all due respect, I think that it has been pretty clearly stated in multiple threads that in wide spread power outages, and other emergencies, batteries are NOT FOR SALE. You had better have them before the emergency, OR have rechargeables, and a means to charge them, especially if things "get funky for days and even weeks!"


 
I understand that you need to have batteries prior to an emergency – which I do - but should there be a further need of batteries, needing the type that will be most readily available and work in several different types of devices makes the most sense. And batteries ARE FOR SALE here, granted they are not always easy to find in an emergency.

As for a means of recharging batteries; when the power was out here for a few weeks last December, and the temperature was in the -10 to -20 range, and it was cloudy and snowing and windy, and finding an open gas station was problematic at best if you weren’t willing to drive 30 kilometers just to get there, may I ask for your suggestion as to how one should best have recharged his batteries?


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## dss_777 (Nov 19, 2013)

*Re: What is the attraction of multiple-AA lights?*



Treeguy said:


> As for a means of recharging batteries; when the power was out here for a few weeks last December, and the temperature was in the -10 to -20 range, and it was cloudy and snowing and windy, and finding an open gas station was problematic at best if you weren’t willing to drive 30 kilometers just to get there, may I ask for your suggestion as to how one should best have recharged his batteries?



I think anyone faced with that as a possibility should have redundant preps. "Hope for the best, but prepare for the worst."

That would mean plenty of primaries plus rechargeables with chargers for AC mains, solar, car. Very appropriate to consider a generator and stored fuel. I'd also stock extra fuel for the car as a last resort for maintaining charging if homebound, or for the need to drive when the gas stations are closed.

You could easily prep for several weeks of no power, and much longer depending on how deep you were willing to go with your preps.


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## Poppy (Nov 19, 2013)

*Re: What is the attraction of multiple-AA lights?*



Treeguy said:


> I understand that you need to have batteries prior to an emergency – which I do - but should there be a further need of batteries, needing the type that will be most readily available and work in several different types of devices makes the most sense. And batteries ARE FOR SALE here, granted they are not always easy to find in an emergency.
> 
> As for a means of recharging batteries; when the power was out here for a few weeks last December, and the temperature was in the -10 to -20 range, and it was cloudy and snowing and windy, and finding an open gas station was problematic at best if you weren’t *willing to drive 30 kilometers* just to get there, may I ask for your suggestion as to how one should best have recharged his batteries?


Treeguy my friend, you seem to be going to extremes to make your point, but I'll play 
Snowy, cloudy and windy rules out solar.
I don't have a Peltier thermoelectric generator so I wouldn't be able to charge them while heating the house or cooking some nice warming soup.
Hand cranking generator is too much work.
Oh... I know  when you go out into the cold to buy some AAs, I'll hand you my chargers, and ask you to plug them into your cigar lighter! Boy... that was easy 

Seriously, with temperatures that cold, your car/truck battery will be struggling to crank the engine over. I didn't look the numbers up, but they really loose cranking amps when they get below freezing. You might consider installing quick disconnects on your battery, so you can bring it in the house and keep it warm. If you typically use a battery warmer, when the power is out, the warmer will not be working. Now... with the car/truck battery inside the house, one can easily charge his little flashlight batteries without significantly draining it. For a more thorough discussion of using the car battery, see this power outage thread.

One more thing, when you go for gas, go to this one, it is 10 km closer 



Treeguy said:


> Just buying gas at the one open station was a *twenty-kilometer trip* and then you had line ups.


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## Treeguy (Nov 19, 2013)

*Re: What is the attraction of multiple-AA lights?*

Well if I can’t play with my friends from New Jersey, who can I play with? 

And you got me on the gas stations, so I Google Earthed it: a tad over 20 kilometers if I go south and 30 if I go north. Thank you adhering to accurate standards.

As for the cold and the car, I can assure you it starts. -30, it still starts, though it does make the same noise you or I would getting out of bed on a morning that cold. -30 is not rare here. -40, that’s something else. -20 is routine. And we never bring the battery into the house. As for charging batteries in the car, you have to remember that in a winter emergency gasoline (like batteries) is at a premium, being shared with generators and tools, and driving conditions are usually bad – traffic lights down, road crews overworked and roads uncleared of snow, hydro lines and trees on the roads. And running your car in the driveway just to charge batteries could be seen as... inefficient. In the end, hunkering down and preserving your supplies is usually the best option. 

Anyway, I don’t feel I am going to extremes, I’m merely voicing an opinion based on my experiences. And as I have lived and worked through many a blackout, including some situations that could realistically be viewed as emergency situations, I figure my opinion is at least as relevant as the next person’s. And yours.


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## Poppy (Nov 19, 2013)

*Re: What is the attraction of multiple-AA lights?*



Treeguy said:


> Well if I can’t play with my friends from New Jersey, who can I play with?



 LOL... the check's in the mail :thumbsup:


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## Disciple (Nov 19, 2013)

*Re: What is the attraction of multiple-AA lights?*



phosphor said:


> By implication a disaster offers uncertainty and unpredictability. I bet there were plenty of folks in the areas struck hardest by the recent typhoon in the Philippines who had extra batteries of all types stashed way for an emergency. Good luck trying to get to them when your dwelling is buried in rubble, and restocking is impossible because every retail establishment has been demolished.



This could be a good reason to EDC a flashlight with a built-in charger and a standard micro-USB interface such as the NiteCore MH2C. Even if you get separated from your supply of batteries and even chargers you would still likely be able to recharge your flashlight with found USB power.



thedoc007 said:


> Additional thanks to Disciple for starting this thread.



You're welcome!



Treeguy said:


> As for a means of recharging batteries; when the power was out here for a few weeks last December, and the temperature was in the -10 to -20 range, and it was cloudy and snowing and windy, and finding an open gas station was problematic at best if you weren’t willing to drive 30 kilometers just to get there, may I ask for your suggestion as to how one should best have recharged his batteries?



Were you on wood fire during this time? How were your other needs met?



Treeguy said:


> ]Anyway, I don’t feel I am going to extremes, I’m merely voicing an opinion based on my experiences. And as I have lived and worked through many a blackout, including some situations that could realistically be viewed as emergency situations, I figure my opinion is at least as relevant as the next person’s.



Yes, and I thank you for it. I'm here to learn.


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## wjv (Nov 19, 2013)

*Re: What is the attraction of multiple-AA lights?*

I like AA's for traveling because:

- Some of my 1xAA lights have REALLY low 0.09-1.5 lumen modes which makes a nice night light for a hotel room
- The people at TSA don't get bent out of shape with AA lights going through security. Though in all honesty they are MUCH better about rechargeable 18650s than they use to be
- Carrying 8 spare batteries requires little effort/luggage space
- Can buy AA batteries almost everywhere (even in China, India and such)
- The 1xAA and 2xAA lights also are easy to carry in a pocket as a EDC, when traveling
- Most 1xAA lights are a good mix of flood/throw so they are good general purpose lights


I like my 18650 and CR123 lights, but I do have a couple AA lights
ITP C8T
Jetbeam BA20
EagleTac D25A click in NW
Fenix E11
Fenix LD10
ITP A2-EOS
L3 Illumination L10 in NW

The LD10 gets used the most, but for traveling the L10 has the 0.09L mode, the D25A has a 0.45L mode, and the A2-EOS has the 1.5L mode. The E11 is kept in my Get Home bag (empty) with a 10 pack of alkalines. I wanted the light in my Get Home bag to be a simple to use light with a clicky and momentary capability.


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## Treeguy (Nov 19, 2013)

*Re: What is the attraction of multiple-AA lights?*



Disciple said:


> Were you on wood fire during this time? How were your other needs met?


 
No, a generator. We renod the house and our new roof is made of stress skin panels and there is no way anyone is going to drill a hole through those things. One little leak and you’re doomed. 

For the rest, we try to always keep the car full of gas in the winter, and we have plenty of propane for lights and cooking. Also, the nature of my work puts me with a great group of guys who are, by the nature of our work and where we live, mobile, skilled with tools, and pretty independant. So there is a lot of help available if any one person gets into trouble. A 10-pack of AA friends, if you will. 





Disciple said:


> Yes, and I thank you for it. I'm here to learn.


 
Me too. :thumbsup:


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## thedoc007 (Nov 19, 2013)

*Re: What is the attraction of multiple-AA lights?*



Treeguy said:


> I understand that you need to have batteries prior to an emergency – which I do - but should there be a further need of batteries, needing the type that will be most readily available and work in several different types of devices makes the most sense.



Actually, this might be a reason to use unusual battery types, especially if you know there is a place nearby which stocks the weird stuff. EVERYONE will be going after the common sizes and types - if you are the only one in your area using a certain type, they might become EASIER to find than the common types. 

If you are really serious about disaster prep (I am not) then you need a solar or wind powered charger, and having massive stockpiles is moot. Eventually you'll run out of cells to scavenge, regardless of type. If you are just planning for "normal" outages, it is pretty easy to stock enough cells to give you a couple weeks of runtime at decent levels (not running your entire collection on high, but enough to be useful).



Treeguy said:


> And running your car in the driveway just to charge batteries could be seen as... inefficient.



A masterful understatement. Well said sir!


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## Poppy (Nov 20, 2013)

*Re: What is the attraction of multiple-AA lights?*



thedoc007 said:


> <SNIP>
> 
> 
> 
> ...



thedoc, I think that Treeguy was referencing 


> the engine would have to run about a minute for each battery.
> If we do the math, and extrapolate out, 7 X 8= 56 days (of 6-7 hours @ 100 lumens) times 1- 18650 battery / day= 56 batteries, and 56 minutes of engine running - burning between 2-3 gallons, and in my car that is 1/8 to 3/16ths of a tank.
> 
> In two months, I would hope that I was able to make a few trips to the grocery store, or HUNGER will be my bigger concern. While going for groceries, I would be recharging the car battery.


 from THIS POST 
I agree... *inefficient* was a beautifully delicate adjective to use. 

The point I was making was for 8 weeks off grid, and that the car, while running to and from the grocery store, can be an efficient means of supplying battery power. Also, that you should keep your car well fueled especially when there is a prediction of an impending storm. I wasn't really suggesting that one should just let the car idle in the driveway, yet, if one does not have a generator, and does have a full tank of gas, it will work.

Please Note: The math was done for 18650 batteries as an example. The same can be done for AAs. The point is that rechargeables can be used for EXTENDED off grid scenarios.


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## Treeguy (Nov 20, 2013)

*Re: What is the attraction of multiple-AA lights?*

I wasn’t implying that you suggested letting the car run in the driveway for two-hours just to recharge a few batteries; I was implying only that if one was hunkered down and not going anywhere, yet had batteries that could only be recharged in the car, that charging the batteries could be problematic.

I’m not arguing against the merits of what you are saying in general, just seeking an explanation I can understand better. And to be honest, if one is hunkered down in bad weather, I am still at a loss as to how one will recharge batteries.

Don’t get me wrong, I’d love to have a $100 fancy-shmancy charger and a drawer full of Eneloops, but my budget, and to some extent my reasoning, dictates otherwise. But I am always open to new and better ideas.


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## Poppy (Nov 20, 2013)

*Re: What is the attraction of multiple-AA lights?*

Treeguy,
As you know, I am in New Jersey. We don't get snowfalls deep enough that I couldn't get out to my car, even if we were "hunkered down". Even if you had to climb out a window, and shovel your way to your car, I imagine that you could get to it.

Its my understanding that the AVERAGE car battery has about 1000 watt hours of energy.
I calculate that a 3000 ma 18650 has 12 watt hours, and a 2000 ma eneloop has 3 watt hours.

If you deplete the car battery by less than 10%, it should still start. If its not too cold out, you could probably deplete it more.
If you charge 6 fully depleted 18650s, or 24 fully depleted AA eneloops, you'd deplete the car battery about 8%.

If your cigar lighter outlet/power port works without the key ON, then it is really simple.
The nitecore intellicharger is less than $30 with the car plug adapter. (The Xtar WP6-2 was about the same.)
Just plug it in, insert 4 AA batteries, or 4 18650 batteries, and come back in about 40 minutes for the AAs or 90 minutes for the 18650s. (I'm only guessing at the times)

Depending upon how much light you want/need, 6 fully charged 18650s or 24 fully charged eneloops can last one to six weeks. Just to be clear, you can have only four eneloops, or one or two 18650s, and recharge them multiple times during the course of the outage, and it will not be any additional drain on the car battery. So, it doesn't matter if you have a stock-pile of eneloops, or only four or eight.

AND, if you take the car anywhere, the alternator will replace the energy in about 6 minutes.


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## bassopotamus (Nov 20, 2013)

*Re: What is the attraction of multiple-AA lights?*

I recently purchased my first quality light, and I have to say, sourcing 18650s at a decent price on short order has been a total drag. Came in a package with 1 18650, and since the day it arrived, I've been trying to add a couple more, without success. I still don't have my batteries from a recommended seller almost 3 weeks later (I think they really shipped them fast, but they are somewhere between Hong Kong and Iowa). Battery 2, from amazon, had a less prominent button top than it appeared in pic, and doesn't work with said light, so it is headed back. Battery 3, ordered with 2 day shipping, may or may not make it to me in before I leave on the trip I bought the battery for. Should work, but double the price of the others. 

Bottom line, In a multiple AA light, I could have used any of the dozen eneloops I have sitting around the house, and in a pinch I could get more batteries in pretty much anywhere. I'm sure I will get this all squared away eventually, but It's not like I can walk into a drug store and walk out with an 18650


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## thedoc007 (Nov 20, 2013)

*Re: What is the attraction of multiple-AA lights?*



bassopotamus said:


> ...sourcing 18650s at a decent price on short order has been a total drag. Came in a package with 1 18650, and since the day it arrived, I've been trying to add a couple more, without success. I still don't have my batteries from a recommended seller almost 3 weeks later (I think they really shipped them fast, but they are somewhere between Hong Kong and Iowa). Battery 2, from amazon, had a less prominent button top than it appeared in pic, and doesn't work with said light, so it is headed back. Battery 3, ordered with 2 day shipping, may or may not make it to me in before I leave on the trip I bought the battery for. Should work, but double the price of the others.



I hear you, man. The lack of a clear (enforced or respected) standard is very unfortunate. It is bad enough in a niche market like CPF (where we can research and get advice from real experts), but for the average person, it is a deal-breaker. If you buy an AA battery, you know it will fit properly...cannot fathom why 18650s don't have the same guaranteed compatibility. If you are willing, go ahead and name the specific light/cells you bought - someone else may learn from your experience.



bassopotamus said:


> Bottom line, In a multiple AA light, I could have used any of the dozen eneloops I have sitting around the house, and in a pinch I could get more batteries in pretty much anywhere. I'm sure I will get this all squared away eventually, but It's not like I can walk into a drug store and walk out with an 18650



I am actually the other way around - I have more than 20 18650s within reach right now, and only a few AA/AAA cells that get used in remotes, clocks, meters, etc. Once you get a decent number of cells (how many depends on usage, might only be a couple for some people) it will become a non-issue. So for me, the bottom line is, I always have 18650s on hand, and the AA/AAA batteries I do have are likely to be in use, and at least partially drained. I don't think this is a valid reason to go with either type...just a matter of preparation.

Also, you may not be able to walk into a drugstore, but there are some retail shops that do carry them. I have a battery store less than ten miles away that does carry 18650s. If sourcing them locally is that important to you (and you have no stores around that carry them), certainly AA might be better for you - but again this an issue that depends entirely on your situation, and not a good reason to avoid using 18650s as a general rule.

My point is simply that it can go either way, and being prepared well ahead of time would avoid some of the problems you are experiencing now. Thanks for sharing your experience!


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## bassopotamus (Nov 20, 2013)

*Re: What is the attraction of multiple-AA lights?*



thedoc007 said:


> I hear you, man. The lack of a clear (enforced or respected) standard is very unfortunate. It is bad enough in a niche market like CPF (where we can research and get advice from real experts), but for the average person, it is a deal-breaker. If you buy an AA battery, you know it will fit properly...cannot fathom why 18650s don't have the same guaranteed compatibility. If you are willing, go ahead and name the specific light/cells you bought - someone else may learn from your experience.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I'm just a little ranty tonight, I'm sure it will all work out, and under normal circumstances, there wouldn't even be the time pressure. And someday, like you, I'll probably have a decent stash of 18650s to use. I live in a kind of mid sized city, and I can't think of any place locally that would stock 18650s, but I'm sure in a bigger metro, there probably are places. 

As for the specific's of my tale of woe (may as well continue to be melodramatic): Flashlight is a Nitecore SRT7 (I don't own any other fancy flashlights, but this one seems awesome). 

Battery one, are a couple Protected 3400 Panasonics from Fasttech. It appears that they have a decent button top to them and hopefully will work. Battery 2 was a 2 pack of unprotected Panasonic 3400s from Amazon, which are basically flat tops, and a no go in my light. battery 3, which hopefully will get here before I leave on my hunt is a nitecore 3400, which I'm sure will work (I have another nitecore battery already). Only gripe is that it is 20 bucks for one...


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## Treeguy (Nov 22, 2013)

*Re: What is the attraction of multiple-AA lights?*



Poppy said:


> Treeguy,
> As you know, I am in New Jersey. We don't get snowfalls deep enough that I couldn't get out to my car, even if we were "hunkered down". Even if you had to climb out a window, and shovel your way to your car, I imagine that you could get to it.


 
Yes, we can always get to the car. No, we cannot always get out with the car.

If a blizzard and bad roads (and power outage) are compounded by heavy storm damage, trees and powerlines down, then a bad day or two with limited mobility can turn into several bad days with very limited mobility. And as sure as night follows day, when the skies clear after the blizzard, the temperature is going to plummet. It can be a very uncomfortable challenge if you're not prepared. 




Poppy said:


> Its my understanding that the AVERAGE car battery has about 1000 watt hours of energy.
> I calculate that a 3000 ma 18650 has 12 watt hours, and a 2000 ma eneloop has 3 watt hours.
> 
> If you deplete the car battery by less than 10%, it should still start. If its not too cold out, you could probably deplete it more.
> ...


 
Well you know a lot more about that than I do. I appreciate the info. :thumbsup:


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## thedoc007 (Nov 22, 2013)

*Re: What is the attraction of multiple-AA lights?*



Poppy said:


> Its my understanding that the AVERAGE car battery has about 1000 watt hours of energy.
> I calculate that a 3000 ma 18650 has 12 watt hours, and a 2000 ma eneloop has 3 watt hours.
> 
> If you deplete the car battery by less than 10%, it should still start. If its not too cold out, you could probably deplete it more.
> If you charge 6 fully depleted 18650s, or 24 fully depleted AA eneloops, you'd deplete the car battery about 8%.



Actually, you need to at least double that drain. Rule of thumb, you need twice as much energy going into a battery, as you will actually get out. So your 12 watt hour cell will take more like 24 watt hours from the car battery (to charge fully from empty), or more if you also account for inefficiencies in the charger. 



Poppy said:


> The nitecore intellicharger is less than $30 with the car plug adapter. (The Xtar WP6-2 was about the same.)
> Just plug it in, insert 4 AA batteries, or 4 18650 batteries, and come back in about 40 minutes for the AAs or 90 minutes for the 18650s. (I'm only guessing at the times)



The Nitecore will take around 10 hours to fully charge 4 18650s (if they are fully depleted). That is why people complain about it sometimes - it IS a slow charger, no doubt about that. If you want a 90 minute charge, look elsewhere. I like the slow charge, because it is easier on the cells. Only about 1/6C if you have both channels loaded, or a still modest 1/3C with only one cell per channel (with 18650).



Poppy said:


> Depending upon how much light you want/need, 6 fully charged 18650s or 24 fully charged eneloops can last one to six weeks. Just to be clear, you can have only four eneloops, or one or two 18650s, and recharge them multiple times during the course of the outage, and it will not be any additional drain on the car battery. So, it doesn't matter if you have a stock-pile of eneloops, or only four or eight.
> 
> AND, if you take the car anywhere, the alternator will replace the energy in about 6 minutes.



This is why it is actually sensible, despite the numerical errors in your post. You don't need to sit in the driveway with it running to charge, just have to run for a few minutes at idle (which burns relatively little gas, especially with a modern engine) every so often to make sure you aren't discharging your car battery too much.


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## Poppy (Nov 22, 2013)

*Re: What is the attraction of multiple-AA lights?*



thedoc007 said:


> Actually, you need to at least double that drain. Rule of thumb, you need twice as much energy going into a battery, as you will actually get out. So your 12 watt hour cell will take more like 24 watt hours from the car battery (to charge fully from empty), or more if you also account for inefficiencies in the charger.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



TheDoc007,
I bow my head to your greater knowledge :thumbsup:
As I stated in my post, I was guessing at the charge times.

Now, I'll admit, that I was also guessing at the allowable discharge for the car battery that would still allow it to start an engine. Certainly this can not be written in stone, because how healthy the car battery is, (how old the battery is) is a huge part of the determining factor. At any rate. Using Treeguy as an example, he states that his car will start even at -30 degrees, I assume Celsius. According to this source, 


> The standard rating for batteries is at room temperature... 25 degrees C (about 77 F). At approximately -22 degrees F (-27 C), battery AH capacity drops to 50%. At freezing, capacity is reduced by 20%. Taken from source


; with that information, my statement that one could drain the car battery by 10% appears to be quite conservative.
Please consider this MacGyverism, if you pull too much energy out of your car battery while it is sitting in the driveway, that it can not crank the engine over fast enough for it to start, if you pull the battery out, and bring it inside to warm up, it may regain enough energy to start the car. You might regain 20-50% capacity depending upon how cold it is outside.


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## thedoc007 (Nov 22, 2013)

*Re: What is the attraction of multiple-AA lights?*

Let's collectively bow to CPF. Just about everything I know about cells/batteries, lights, chargers, and more, I learned here. Without others who have posted before me, I wouldn't know any of that!


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## Poppy (Nov 22, 2013)

*Re: What is the attraction of multiple Cell -AA lights?*



thedoc007 said:


> Let's collectively bow to CPF. Just about everything I know about cells/batteries, lights, chargers, and more, I learned here. Without others who have posted before me, I wouldn't know any of that!



OK... a collective bow to the CPF. lovecpf
There are times when I am impressed by the knowledge of some, but there are times that I am humbled by the knowledge of some, and not only humbled, but stunned by the depth of knowledge of the collective.


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## adnj (Nov 23, 2013)

Go to a small town or an island country and you may find that AA may be the only size of any battery that you can find. Rechargeable or not. 

Sent using Tapatalk


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## Treeguy (Nov 23, 2013)

*Re: What is the attraction of multiple-AA lights?*



Poppy said:


> At any rate. Using Treeguy as an example, he states that his car will start even at -30 degrees, I assume Celsius.


 
I can assure you that starting a car at -30 (Celsius or Farenheit) is not a big deal at all.

It might not be too happy about it, but it will start. It often makes this sound when you turn the key: _“Leemee-alo-alo-alo-alo-alo-alo-alo-alone vrOOOOm... “ _


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## RetroTechie (Nov 23, 2013)

*Re: What is the attraction of multiple-AA lights?*

Hehe, I recollect a story about some Russians out in a super-cold place, who would poor some *gasoline under their car and light it* to heat fueltank / lines / engine to the point where fuel would flow & car could be started. Might be diesel, but perhaps story even referred to regular gasoline in case temps where low enough.

FWIW: in conditions extreme enough, the above doesn't even sound unreasonable to me...  Think the kind of temps where you can't pee in the snow 'cause some parts might get frostbitten, or where attempting to lick a metal pole would get your tongue stuck (well that's dumb in freezing weather anyway).

Buy the time you really can't find AA's _anywhere,_ I think you'll have other things to worry about.


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## Treeguy (Nov 23, 2013)

*Re: What is the attraction of multiple-AA lights?*



RetroTechie said:


> Hehe, I recollect a story about some Russians out in a super-cold place, who would poor some *gasoline under their car and light it* to heat fueltank / lines / engine to the point where fuel would flow & car could be started. Might be diesel, but perhaps story even referred to regular gasoline in case temps where low enough.


 
I’ve seen that here. Kind of. You light a BBQ chacoal fire on a cookie sheet or on tin foil, and then slide it under the oil pan for a while. It works.




RetroTechie said:


> Buy the time you really can't find AA's _anywhere,_ I think you'll have other things to worry about.


 
Ain’t that the truth. :wave:


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## dss_777 (Nov 23, 2013)

*Re: What is the attraction of multiple-AA lights?*



thedoc007 said:


> This is why it is actually sensible, despite the numerical errors in your post. You don't need to sit in the driveway with it running to charge, just have to run for a few minutes at idle (which burns relatively little gas, especially with a modern engine) every so often to make sure you aren't discharging your car battery too much.



This suggests a good strategy to use the car to charge batteries: Use the car's battery to recharge the AA's/18650's (with the car off), and only run the car to use the alternator to recharge the car's battery. Much shorter run-times, it seems. 

Am I correct?


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## thedoc007 (Nov 23, 2013)

*Re: What is the attraction of multiple-AA lights?*



dss_777 said:


> This suggests a good strategy to use the car to charge batteries: Use the car's battery to recharge the AA's/18650's 9witht eh car off), and only run the car to use the alternator to recharge the car's battery. Much shorter run-times, it seems.
> 
> Am I correct?



Yes, this is the point I was making earlier. There is no need to run the run's engine while charging, and if you do, you are wasting a LOT of fuel. Alternators can replace lost energy quite quickly.


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## Poppy (Nov 24, 2013)

*Re: What is the attraction of multiple Cell -AA lights?*



dss_777 said:


> This suggests a good strategy to use the car to charge batteries: Use the car's battery to recharge the AA's/18650's (with the car off), and only run the car to use the alternator to recharge the car's battery. Much shorter run-times, it seems.
> 
> Am I correct?



Absolutely!

I guess I didn't spell it out clearly enough that the car engine does not need to be running while charging flashlight batteries. It doesn't matter if they are 18650s, eneloops, or your cell phone.


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## Poppy (Nov 24, 2013)

*Re: What is the attraction of multiple Cell -AA lights?*

The topic of the Power outage thread discusses how many lumens and how many batteries (for lighting and other needs) are needed for a family of four for an extended outage.

Regarding the topic of this thread, the OP was asking why buy *AA lights with multiple cells, 4 cells, 6 cells, or 8 cells*, instead of one or two celled 18650 lights?

I have a few 2*AA cell lights, but no 4,6, or 8 cell AA lights. Those of you who have them, do you use them during power outages? OR are they containers for batteries that you can use in your single cell AA lights?

If you do use them, during a power outage, do you typically use them on low, medium, or high? I.E. at what lumen level?


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## Jash (Nov 24, 2013)

*Re: What is the attraction of multiple Cell -AA lights?*

To answer your question Poppy, I have several 4xAA, and several 8xAA lights that I use fairly regularly. Earlier this year we lost power for three days after cyclone Oswald hammered the region and tore down power lines. I used my TK40/41/60 flashlights on medium mode to generously illuminate the main living areas, and a couple of 4xAA lights for bathroom and toilet.

Having charged up ALL my eneloops (got about 120) a few days before, knowing what was coming, I had plenty of light and didn't even have to recharge anything, or even change any cells as the capacity of the lights battery configuration was more than adequate for the period without power.

The best thing is how stable the larger lights tail stand. The only 18650 light I've got that tail stands is the E50, and I'd likely save my 18650/CR123 lights until all my AA options were exhausted during an emergency, and that would take months to become a problem.


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## Poppy (Nov 25, 2013)

*Re: What is the attraction of multiple Cell -AA lights?*



> I used my TK40/41/60 flashlights on medium mode to generously illuminate the main living areas, and a couple of 4xAA lights for bathroom and toilet.


Thanks Jash. 

Medium mode on those lights is about 100-120 lumens. Its a comforting feeling for a person, when he knows, that he has sufficient reserve power, that he can light the main room/s at that level of light, for the anticipated duration, and longer.


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## moldyoldy (Nov 26, 2013)

*Re: What is the attraction of multiple-AA lights?*



RetroTechie said:


> Hehe, I recollect a story about some Russians out in a super-cold place, who would poor some *gasoline under their car and light it* to heat fueltank / lines / engine to the point where fuel would flow & car could be started. Might be diesel, but perhaps story even referred to regular gasoline in case temps where low enough.
> 
> FWIW: in conditions extreme enough, the above doesn't even sound unreasonable to me...  Think the kind of temps where you can't pee in the snow 'cause some parts might get frostbitten, or where attempting to lick a metal pole would get your tongue stuck (well that's dumb in freezing weather anyway).
> 
> Buy the time you really can't find AA's _anywhere,_ I think you'll have other things to worry about.



Continuing somewhat off topic so as to refine cold-weather operations knowledge just a bit: 

When the free-air temps go below minus 40 degrees, such as north of Fairbanks, keeping a vehicle operable is a bit dicey. At those temps and below, engines are simply never shut off. Engines are left to idle all night long and the drivers hope that the engine does not kill for any reason. The vehicle's exhaust pipe was angled down-wind to avoid any wind-driven reflow back to the vehicle. Flashlights? 4-D Headlamps used battery body-packs wired past the neck from under the parkas.

Another reason for idling is to keep the windshield relatively clear of ice/frost. Windshields often were double-paned, sometimes the side windows as well. 

If the driver/crew was faced with a non-op engine, a camp stove was lit and pushed under the oilpan for a while - how long depend on how long the engine was dead. If available, a rug or blanket was tossed over the hood/radiator. More primitively, the Russians will chop out a shallow hole in the ground/snow and pour some kind of fuel in the hole and push (if possible) the vehicle over that hole such that the oilpan was directly above the burning fuel. 

Part of the problem is that the US Military in Alaska used "Quartermaster" gas, which was dismally low on octane. The military truck engines were tolerant of such fuel. However in the '60s when I was up there, many cars simply would not idle on that fuel, meaning that the RPM had to be bumped up (old fashioned throttle cable or a snow-brush stick appropriately jammed on the fuel pedal.) 

Down in the lower-48, such as NW Montana where temps routinely drop below minus 30 F, the standard lubricant for modern cars is synthetic oil. Standard dino-oil has about no chance at those temps. I have walked outside in minus 40 temps more than once - no fun. Where I grew up in Northern MN, the standard winter weather was 20 below, 20 MPH wind. which is common all across northern MN, N.Dakota, northern Montana. You do not think about flashlights for long at those temps - reduced to dim yellow beams. 

Back on topic: At that time, the US Gov (eg: USFS) recycled primary D flashlight batteries every 2 years since they were mostly dead by then. One time I requested permission to save some from the 'latest' disposal, and obtained a useable rate of about 10%. Rechargeables were the Ni-CD (sub-C inside a D pkg) from GE which had an unuseably low capacity for remote operations. Solar cells were a gleam in the eyes of designers.


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## Rexlion (Nov 26, 2013)

*Re: What is the attraction of multiple-AA lights?*



bassopotamus said:


> I recently purchased my first quality light, and I have to say, sourcing 18650s at a decent price on short order has been a total drag. Came in a package with 1 18650, and since the day it arrived, I've been trying to add a couple more, without success. I still don't have my batteries from a recommended seller almost 3 weeks later (I think they really shipped them fast, but they are somewhere between Hong Kong and Iowa). Battery 2, from amazon, had a less prominent button top than it appeared in pic, and doesn't work with said light, so it is headed back. Battery 3, ordered with 2 day shipping, may or may not make it to me in before I leave on the trip I bought the battery for. Should work, but double the price of the others.
> 
> Bottom line, In a multiple AA light, I could have used any of the dozen eneloops I have sitting around the house, and in a pinch I could get more batteries in pretty much anywhere. I'm sure I will get this all squared away eventually, but It's not like I can walk into a drug store and walk out with an 18650


Try the local vapor store (selling fake cigarettes, if you don't know). I now can buy AW 18650s in at least one of the vape shops in Tulsa; I haven't checked them all because there are a bunch of them!


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