# Pandemic-the light at the end of the tunnel



## bykfixer (Mar 10, 2021)

In my home state there's a light at the end of the tunnel and it aint a train. Yippee!! 

Now the total number of cases will never be less as it is a running total like time. There will be a day when the number is frozen though. Phew! That'll be cool. 

But the rate of rise is falling while the rate of inoculations is rising. 

The point of this one will hopefully focus on putting this thing in the rear view mirror real soon. I received a text from my athsmatic son this morning that he has an appointment for his shot this week. He said he has not felt this calm in about a year. I think many who participated in previous threads can say they too feel that sense of relief. For the first time in a year many feel that the end just might be around the corner for the US. 

Thoughts?


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## ledbetter (Mar 10, 2021)

Last I heard this pandemic is likely to be endemic. I got the first shot and am hopeful all my future shots will prevent the disease.
America needs to keep making tons of vaccine and sell it cheap or give it away to our neighbors to give our border a buffer. And though I hate to say it, maybe airlines could offer some vaccine only flights? And good luck to your son, I know asthma sucks, especially when lung eating viruses are on the loose.


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## SCEMan (Mar 10, 2021)

ledbetter said:


> maybe airlines could offer some vaccine only flights?



Based on mask & passenger behavior on recent flights I've been on, wouldn't that be great!


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## idleprocess (Mar 10, 2021)

I was glad when I was able to schedule an appointment for the first dose of vaccine with a mere ~week leadtime. In about 6 weeks I can finally visit my parents again.


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## Poppy (Mar 12, 2021)

Yesterday the news reported that Moderna is starting a new set of trials... boosters against the variants etc.
1/3 will be a booster of the current vaccine
1/3 will be a booster aimed at one of the variants in particular ( I'm not sure which one, but I am thinking it is the South African variant).
1/3 will be a combined booster of the original and the variant.

Science has come a long was in the past few years. With the regular flu shot, it is a bit of hit and miss. By time they learn which strain is the most predominant for any particular season, it is too late to manufacture a vaccine to be effective for that season.

--------------------------------

another bit of news:
We may be at 40% of the US population with some level of immunity.
It was estimated that about 30% have natural acquired immunity, and 20% have been inoculated. Considering some overlap, it is estimated that 40% of us are protected.

We're getting there! 

The US is now administering over 2,100,000 doses a day.


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## bykfixer (Mar 12, 2021)

Some of the advances have resulted from AIDS research, and various things like malaria, pnuemonia and other things that plague parts of the globe us Yanks never really think about. It reminds me of all those smart weapons used in the Desert Shield situation in the 90's. As in it seemed like out of nowhere they were able to launch a missle from Florida and accurately hit an object the size of a tennis court in New Jersey. Yet those things had been being developed long before 1991 or whatever year Desert Shield happened. 
It seems the covid-19 shot uses technology developed long before 2020. Some of which has taken place in research in outter space because somehow no gravity allows scientists to disect things even more precisely in space. It's like the technology allows them to disect a molecule now so they understand the things a molecule is made of now. 

Our town had a somewhat famous arts and crafts event every year since the 1980's on Mothers Day until 2020. They announced yesterday it's back on this year. Limited number of participants was stated but it's still like 40% instead of 0. Being a roadway inspector I worked like normal the whole time. This time last years the roads were quiet. Like everyday was a national holiday. The only time I got real nervous about supply chains was when I noticed no train sounds from a nearby railroad highway. That lasted about 3 weeks. Trucks were everywhere but no trains. Now the highways are pretty normal again and it appears commerce is returned to a near normal.

Soon we can stop saying "new normal" and start saying "near normal". Maybe by fall we can say "now normal"………


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## Katherine Alicia (Mar 12, 2021)

I sincerely hope your optimism is rewarded! :thumbsup:


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## scout24 (Mar 12, 2021)

I think as spring puts in an appearance, at the very least people's outlooks will improve. We were pushing 70° here yesterday with bright sunshine. I went out for a drive in a t-shirt with the windows down and enjoyed the warmth. And we "spring ahead" this weekend!  There's a ways to go, but we're getting there.


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## KITROBASKIN (Mar 12, 2021)

Good to see this thread.

Here is (New Mexico funneled) official information regarding the three different (Pfizer, Moderna, Janssen) vaccines (including ingredients) for those who want to learn more:

https://cvvaccine.nmhealth.org/Documents/1/COVID-19-EUA.pdf

https://cvvaccine.nmhealth.org/Documents/2/COVID-19-EUA.pdf

https://cvvaccine.nmhealth.org/Documents/3/COVID-19-EUA.pdf


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## Nitroz (Mar 12, 2021)

bykfixer said:


> The point of this one will hopefully focus on putting this thing in the rear view mirror real soon. I received a text from my asthmatic son this morning that he has an appointment for his shot this week. He said he has not felt this calm in about a year. I think many who participated in previous threads can say they too feel that sense of relief. For the first time in a year many feel that the end just might be around the corner for the US.
> 
> Thoughts?



My son has asthma too and it definitely makes one more cautious. I work at a hospital and that makes things stressful at times.

I hope the Covid subsides in the near future. Wearing a mask for 8 hours, 5 days a week gets old.

Russ


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## Hooked on Fenix (Mar 12, 2021)

I hope it's over soon. I'm not that optimistic about it though as illegal immigrants are being allowed in the U.S. without covid testing. This could extend the problem further into the future. Things opening up has become a political issue and not based on science. People are fed up with the lockdown, courts are starting to favor churches and some businesses, and politicians are doing what's in their best interest to keep their jobs. We're not out of the woods yet.


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## jtr1962 (Mar 12, 2021)

Hooked on Fenix said:


> I hope it's over soon. I'm not that optimistic about it though as illegal immigrants are being allowed in the U.S. without covid testing. This could extend the problem further into the future. Things opening up has become a political issue and not based on science. People are fed up with the lockdown, courts are starting to favor churches and some businesses, and politicians are doing what's in their best interest to keep their jobs. We're not out of the woods yet.


This is exactly why I favor overhauling our response mechanism. Once a medical emergency like a pandemic is declared, the measures needed should be decided by experts in the field, and should carry the force of law until the emergency is over. Politicians or courts simply lack the expertise or will to do what is needed. The only role for politicians would be implementing whatever economic supports might be needed in the case of long lock downs or other interruptions to the economy.

I'm pretty skeptical also, to the point that I think this thing might mutate a few more times, and we'll have a surge next fall/winter which dwarfs what we just went through. We're not even close to the point where we can start relaxing. This is one time though I'd love to be proven wrong. I'm as tired of dealing with this as anybody but I'm not letting my guard down until the number of daily new cases in the US falls to the single digits.


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## jtr1962 (Mar 12, 2021)

bykfixer said:


> It seems the covid-19 shot uses technology developed long before 2020. Some of which has taken place in research in outter space because somehow no gravity allows scientists to disect things even more precisely in space. It's like the technology allows them to disect a molecule now so they understand the things a molecule is made of now.


The covid-19 vaccines are proof-of-concept that mRNA vaccines work. For a long time the medical community was skeptical. I'm thinking the concept can eventually be applied to a lot more than just novel viruses. Why not develop mRNA which causes the body to make antibodies which kill different kinds of cancer cells, perhaps all kinds, so we have a universal cancer vaccine? It might take years to develop, but if it works we'll eliminate once of the major causes of premature death in modern societies.


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## ledbetter (Mar 18, 2021)

Looks like Joe’s listening to me! White House announced sending about 4 million doses of AZ vaccine to Canada and Mexico. It’s a start.Now if I can only get a vaccine only flight.


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## bykfixer (Mar 18, 2021)

jtr1962 said:


> The covid-19 vaccines are proof-of-concept that mRNA vaccines work. For a long time the medical community was skeptical. I'm thinking the concept can eventually be applied to a lot more than just novel viruses. Why not develop mRNA which causes the body to make antibodies which kill different kinds of cancer cells, perhaps all kinds, so we have a universal cancer vaccine? It might take years to develop, but if it works we'll eliminate once of the major causes of premature death in modern societies.



A guy on the radio said the technology in the covid-19 shot may be to the medical world what vulcanized rubber was to the industrial world way back when.


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## ledbetter (Mar 18, 2021)

Fewer complaints about Big Phama now.


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## bykfixer (Mar 19, 2021)

Ha! Good point LB


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## markr6 (Mar 19, 2021)

jtr1962 said:


> The covid-19 vaccines are proof-of-concept that mRNA vaccines work. For a long time the medical community was skeptical. I'm thinking the concept can eventually be applied to a lot more than just novel viruses. Why not develop mRNA which causes the body to make antibodies which kill different kinds of cancer cells, perhaps all kinds, so we have a universal cancer vaccine? It might take years to develop, but if it works we'll eliminate once of the major causes of premature death in modern societies.




If so, we definitely need Elon to succeed with this Mars thing for more room! Population 3.6 to 7.9 billion in the past 50 years.

Nice article about the history of mRNA here: https://www.statnews.com/2020/11/10...-leading-technology-in-the-covid-vaccine-race


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## bykfixer (Mar 19, 2021)

Good read. Thanks.


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## wacbzz (Mar 19, 2021)

ledbetter said:


> Fewer complaints about Big Phama now.



As a person that is required to take a pill costing $15,000 per month to live, you’ll NEVER hear me stop complaining about Big Pharma and how they’re in it for the money. EVER. Do even the simplest bit of research into Novartis and BMS or know someone taking one of their high priced drugs and you perhaps might not be so smug with your next post.


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## ledbetter (Mar 19, 2021)

People say they want capitalism until it gets personal and then they’re socialists because the cost of saving their life is too expensive. This country has yet to figure out the balance. Also, without the financial motivation, would these drugs even have been conceived? For altruistic motivations? Sounds naive.


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## jtr1962 (Mar 19, 2021)

ledbetter said:


> People say they want capitalism until it gets personal and then they’re socialists because the cost of saving their life is too expensive. This country has yet to figure out the balance. Also, without the financial motivation, would these drugs even have been conceived? For altruistic motivations? Sounds naive.


If they stopped having drug commercials, the cost of these drugs would be a lot less. Also, there's not much value in advertising prescription drugs to laypeople, and telling them to "ask their doctor". In fact, maybe we should allow doctors to bill drug companies for all the time they waste discussing a drug their patients saw advertised on TV.

Another issue is the price charged for drugs often doesn't reflect the manufacturing cost and making a reasonable profit. Rather, it's charging whatever the market will bear. Yes, there's also the cost of R&D, but often the determinant of whether to even try to develop a new drug is based on how many people they can sell that drug to. Drugs which completely cure conditions after a few doses might not make the cut, whereas those which people have to take for life will. And then you have perverse incentives to keep drugs off the market which might cure a condition for which they weren't originally developed. Case in point is GS-441524. Gilead originally developed the drug to treat Ebola in the early 2010s. It has since been used in drugs like remdesivir to treat covid-19. Another use for the drug was discovered, namely to treat cats with FIP, which is normally close to 100% fatal. Despite thousands of people using black market versions of the drug to cure their cats of FIP, Gilead refuses to license the drug for veterinary use. I wonder how many other drugs suffered a similar fate, perhaps forcing people or animals to live with conditions which could have been cured.

Finally, while some people are born with conditions which require drugs to stay alive, the vast majority of people taking drugs would no longer need them with simple lifestyle changes. The current system however favors expensive interventions over prevention or low-cost cures because there's no money in the latter two things. That's a failure of a for-profit system. A healthcare system paid for solely by taxes would favor prevention because doing so would reduce overall tax rates. Also, no reason government funded labs can't also do drug research, then manufacture and sell the drugs they develop at cost. Look at how many things came out of research NASA did, for example. Many of these things never would have been developed otherwise because the long-term profit potential was either non-existent or poor.


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## bykfixer (Mar 19, 2021)

I had hoped this thread would remain on topic regarding light at the end of the pandemic tunnel and not go off on the usual tangents of the previous (closed) ones.
:shakehead
IBC………


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## Chauncey Gardiner (Mar 19, 2021)

bykfixer said:


> I had hoped this thread would remain on topic regarding light at the end of the pandemic tunnel and not go off on the usual tangents of the previous (closed) ones.
> :shakehead
> IBC………



You can take the dog out of the fight. :banned: 

But you can't take the fight out of the dog.  

IBC.......


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## jtr1962 (Mar 19, 2021)

bykfixer said:


> I had hoped this thread would remain on topic regarding light at the end of the pandemic tunnel and not go off on the usual tangents of the previous (closed) ones.
> :shakehead
> IBC………


Maybe the mods should put the side discussion about big pharma into another thread? I think it's a worthwhile topic, but probably doesn't belong in this thread.


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## Katherine Alicia (Mar 19, 2021)

jtr1962 said:


> Maybe the mods should put the side discussion about big pharma into another thread? I think it's a worthwhile topic, but probably doesn't belong in this thread.




Probably better in the Underground, here: http://www.cpfunderground.com/index.html


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## jtr1962 (Mar 19, 2021)

Katherine Alicia said:


> Probably better in the Underground, here: http://www.cpfunderground.com/index.html


Or just avoid anything overtly political in our discussion. I'm more interested in how profit motives determine which drugs see the light of day, and which don't, as well as what's technically possible without those motivations. For example, by guaranteeing to purchase x doses of the vaccines, the government essentially covered any risk the drug companies were taking that the vaccine wouldn't work. The gamble paid off big time. Maybe we should do this for other conditions where drug companies might be on the fence if it's worth their while to develop a drug.


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## wacbzz (Mar 19, 2021)

ledbetter said:


> People say they want capitalism until it gets personal and then they’re socialists because the cost of saving their life is too expensive. This country has yet to figure out the balance. Also, without the financial motivation, would these drugs even have been conceived? For altruistic motivations? *Sounds naive*.



Not sure who you’ve talked to, but how apropos your last bit.


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## Katherine Alicia (Mar 19, 2021)

Well I`m booked to have my first shot on Monday, YAY!


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## jtr1962 (Mar 19, 2021)

Can't get it for me or my mother until they have mobile vaccination vans. My mother has zero mobility, and I can't leave her alone long enough to go to one of the vaccination sites and wait in line for hours. Not to mention doing that is a great way to expose myself to infection, given that mask wearing is becoming a lot more lax, even in NYC. So my game plan is when they have the vaccination vans I make an appointment, and they do both of us. If it's the two-dose vaccine I assume they'll automatically book us for the second shot some weeks later.


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## Poppy (Mar 20, 2021)

I can SEE a light. I hope it's not a train 

I am currently spending some time with my sister and our dad. The three of us are now seniors, and they each got their second shot yesterday. Initially we were extremely careful and only left the house once every two weeks, but now we leave almost daily on little excursions, maybe to the bank, or pharmacy, or a quick pick up at the grocery store. We go food shopping weekly.

There are two senior ladies that we visit, or they come here, twice a week. They got their second shot yesterday also. They too have been very careful, and we all wear our masks whenever in a public place.

Still we don't eat out, and don't dilly dally in the stores.

Two High School friends are house shopping in our area and stayed here two nights. Also Seniors, and vaccinated. 

Except for my Dad, (who can in no way qualify as being young), we are young healthy seniors, and we felt comfortable spending time together without wearing masks. It felt good 

I hope that's not a train I see coming, but there is a light!


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## bykfixer (Mar 20, 2021)

If your pop can still drive himself to Florida and back I'd say that qualifies as "young enough"……Whatcha think? 

My neighbor in her mid 90's drive where ever she wants to but says "I've been everywhere I wanted to go and seen everything I wanted to see" so she gets in her little fire engine red S-10 pickup truck and takes a drive a few laps around the city to charge the battery from time to time. 

Cases in my state have dropped pretty steadily recently but still hover in the 2k per day range. I don't check the death clock anymore. No need, the one minute news updates on the radio reminds us every hour and half hour everyday. So I'll be glad when they purge that from the daily gloom report.


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## orbital (Mar 20, 2021)

bykfixer said:


> ... I don't check the death clock anymore. No need, the one minute news updates on the radio reminds us every hour and half hour everyday. So I'll be glad when they purge that from the daily gloom report.



+

Death clock? guessing specifically for people who are panicky types or become truly unglued easily.

When 9/11 happened, I could see my a couple of my roommates start to loose it, like the world was coming to an end.
There was a blood drive that popped up and one of my roommates was running around to get people to hurry & his voice was cracking in panic.

The same type of person who couldn't turn off the news this last year,,, voice cracking/panicky types.

*No, the world hasn't come to an end, 
not in 2001 or 2020*


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## SCEMan (Mar 20, 2021)

My wife and I are flying to visit our kids/grandkids (5 & 3) next week. We've had both vaccinations and feel pretty comfortable traveling. In fact we've flown 2x to visit them (pre-vaccinated) already since last November w/o issues.


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## markr6 (Mar 22, 2021)

I VERY reluctantly scheduled my shot...only a short 6 WEEKS away. That'll give me even more time to consider "should I really do this?" I was trying to get the Johnson & Johnson one-shot deal, but it's 40 minutes in the wrong direction the day I head south for a trip, so I had to pass.


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## bykfixer (Mar 22, 2021)

There may be a 4th one soon in America. Now if they can produce at the rate of the other 3 we may be at 50% by July 4th.


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## jtr1962 (Mar 22, 2021)

Hopefully that will happen. So far thanks to the rapid vaccine rollout it looks like we're mitigating the 4th wave Europe is now experiencing. New case numbers are flat. I'd rather see them declining, but flat is better than increasing. The number of deaths is still dropping, probably because the more vulnerable have been vaccinated in higher numbers. Deaths are what matters more here anyway, not case numbers.


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## markr6 (Mar 23, 2021)

bykfixer said:


> There may be a 4th one soon in America. Now if they can produce at the rate of the other 3 we may be at 50% by July 4th.



They're estimating July 31 but that depends on if things change. They're worried about the "vaccine-hesitant" which could pump the brakes on this thing. I'm still there. I have mine scheduled but deep down I really want to pass.


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## idleprocess (Mar 23, 2021)

markr6 said:


> They're estimating July 31 but that depends on if things change. They're worried about the "vaccine-hesitant" which could pump the brakes on this thing. I'm still there. I have mine scheduled but deep down I really want to pass.



Conversely, I'm eagerly awaiting my second dose in 2 weeks. I might have introverted tendencies but the year of this pandemic has reminded me that _I miss people_. I'm not entirely sure what I'm going to do 2 weeks after that second dose when immunity kicks in, but it's going to involve something other than spending almost 100% of my time within the confines of my residence.


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## markr6 (Mar 23, 2021)

I guess for me nothing has really changed so I'm just getting the shot to play along hoping it helps everyone as a whole. I go out to dinner with friends that aren't staying home, but some are. I go to work, shopping, cycle, kayak, backpacking, museum with my son, etc. It's actually nice with less people and traffic. That'll be a rude awakening when everyone goes back to work...but some are saying they no longer even have an office at work.

If I haven't already had covid-19 by this point (without knowing it) it would be the biggest miracle. I went to get an antibody test but I think they're busy with vaccines now so I passed.


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## jtr1962 (Mar 23, 2021)

markr6 said:


> They're estimating July 31 but that depends on if things change. They're worried about the "vaccine-hesitant" which could pump the brakes on this thing. I'm still there. I have mine scheduled but deep down I really want to pass.


I might pose the question of why to you and the other vaccine-hesitant. Millions of people have taken these vaccines. A tiny percentage had adverse reactions which medical personnel were able to deal with. The rest were fine. The jury is still out on whether anyone actually died from adverse reactions to the vaccine but if any did, it's a vanishingly small percentage, far smaller than the average person's chances of dying if they catch covid-19. I'm hopeful as the vaccine-hesitant see people they know getting the shot, and those people are fine, their hesitancy will evaporate. The only path back to normalcy with this thing is vaccinations. We've already saw that with mutations you can get it again even if you've already had it. So the herd immunity thing via infection will never work. If enough people don't get vaccinated we'll still be dealing with outbreaks, deaths, lock downs, and masks 5 years from now. Would people rather have that than an extremely small risk from the vaccine?


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## idleprocess (Mar 23, 2021)

markr6 said:


> but some are saying they no longer even have an office at work.



Just learned like this will likely soon be a reality for my work group. I'm disappointed because _returning to the office_ was something I was looking forward to after spending the overwhelming majority of the last year working from home; on the other hand this is motivation to change things up since WFH is no longer a long-running contingency.


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## jtr1962 (Mar 23, 2021)

idleprocess said:


> Just learned like this will likely soon be a reality for my work group. I'm disappointed because _returning to the office_ was something I was looking forward to after spending the overwhelming majority of the last year working from home; on the other hand this is motivation to change things up since WFH is no longer a long-running contingency.


Well, WFH is going to be permanent for my sister and she's thrilled with it. The only negative for her is that there's nothing much for her to do when she's not working with lots of things still being closed. You may have looked forward to returning to the office but my guess is if you had one week of sitting in heavy traffic (or delayed subway trains for NYers like myself) you'll quickly wish you were working from home again. I've worked from home since late 1990. Whatever negatives there are to not seeing as many people are outweighed by avoiding rushing out the door in the morning, then dealing with the commute both ways. That's also time I'm not being paid for. I never minded working. It was always the getting there part that annoyed me.


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## idleprocess (Mar 23, 2021)

A wee bit of OT rambling here...



jtr1962 said:


> Well, WFH is going to be permanent for my sister and she's thrilled with it. The only negative for her is that there's nothing much for her to do when she's not working with lots of things still being closed. You may have looked forward to returning to the office but my guess is if you had one week of sitting in heavy traffic (or delayed subway trains for NYers like myself) you'll quickly wish you were working from home again. I've worked from home since late 1990. Whatever negatives there are to not seeing as many people are outweighed by avoiding rushing out the door in the morning, then dealing with the commute both ways. That's also time I'm not being paid for. I never minded working. It was always the getting there part that annoyed me.



Save for a single day in October, it's been almost exactly a year of working from home, so I've got a reasonable depth of perspective on the issue. I will clarify that I'm not looking forward to an _end to WFH_ so much as _the option to go into the office *as I knew it*_.

I will miss the daily change of scenery - seeing a slice of the region driving to and from the office, the contrast between office and home, and the niceties of the office. I'll also miss the _bookends_ to the workday in term of both time and space. I'll mostly miss the direct interaction with people - far richer collaboration and socializing with co-workers, and serendipitous encounters with others in the building.

I will not miss the time sink of the 30-45 minute commute each way. I'll also not miss the ~15,000 commuting miles per year I put on the car.

However these are more conscious factors. The unconscious factor I've realized I was anticipating was _*a return to what used to be normal*_. I can adapt. A year of satisficement in my personal home office will end and I'll make some quality-of-life improvements that didn't seem worth it during the long contingency. I'll also make some adjustments to my social life _since I can see people again_ in about a month's time.

I suspect the company will condense the footprint down to workspace for those employees that must be centralized for reasons of facilities, internal customer facing roles, or cannot work remotely due to the nature of their job with the remainder of the facility being conference rooms and _hotel_ space. I hope that the the setup of the latter is better-considered than long barren tables and wifi connectivity. Onboarding and developing new employees was difficult during this period; I suspect that something will have to give in terms of having space available to work in for stretches of time during those crucial early days.


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## raggie33 (Mar 23, 2021)

the vacine is silly im still only wearing a adult diaper and football helmet when i go out. no one gets close to me


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## bykfixer (Mar 23, 2021)

Man I'll be glad when DMV goes back to normal. Spending time in an uncomfy chair while 6 of the 7 workers are on break sounds wonderful versus trying to figure out their website. 
First off, you get to guess what they call the service you want to perform. Then once you have discovered what that is then you get to guess how to fill out the form. You fill it out and BAM, WRONG……rejected. It says "please click help"……uh, where's the help button btw?"
Eventually I found out how to fill out the form with info for the blank called "customer 1", which I figured was me……nope it wants my driver license number. Well why didn't you say "drivers license number?" And why do you need that to tell me how much a new set of license plates cost? 

Now I did have the option of making an in person appointment……in mid-May. Ugh! 
This is probably sounding like an anti-DMV rant but that's not the point. The point is I'll be so glad when we can wake up on a Saturday morning, head over to DMV and set in an uncomfortable chair for an hour. That sounds like bliss after navigating their website.


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## PhotonWrangler (Mar 23, 2021)

An associate just got the Moderna vaccine. He wanted to tell one of his friends about it so he used the dictation mode on his phone to text his friend about getting the shot. But the autocorrect feature changed it from "Moderna vaccine" to "Madonna vaccine" before sending it. :laughing:


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## Chauncey Gardiner (Mar 23, 2021)

PhotonWrangler said:


> An associate just got the Moderna vaccine. He wanted to tell one of his friends about it so he used the dictation mode on his phone to text his friend about getting the shot. But the autocorrect feature changed it from "Moderna vaccine" to "Madonna vaccine" before sending it. :laughing:



Bout time they named one after her.


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## Poppy (Mar 24, 2021)

As of March 20, 2021, the US CDC said 81,415,769 people had received at least one dose while 44,141,228 people are fully vaccinated as of Sunday.

I calculate that if we have a 330 million population, then we have almost 25% having received at least one dose of vaccine. If even one dose gives a decent amount of protection, and that since they were given to the more vulnerable population, it appears to me that we are well on our way to overall reducing deaths due to covid - unless, more virulent variants pop up. 

Certainly there are a number of people who have naturally acquired immunity. The higher that number the better. Hopefully many college aged kids, already have an acquired immunity, and when partying during spring break there aren't as many repercussions as there would be if there were no immunity among them. Let's hope that more virulent variants aren't produced over the next few weeks.

Hopefully, that even if a bunch of college kids on spring break, get infected and share it around, that when they bring it back home, that the more vulnerable will have been vaccinated, and have a good amount of protection.


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## markr6 (Mar 24, 2021)

jtr1962 said:


> I might pose the question of why to you and the other vaccine-hesitant. Millions of people have taken these vaccines. A tiny percentage had adverse reactions which medical personnel were able to deal with. The rest were fine. The jury is still out on whether anyone actually died from adverse reactions to the vaccine but if any did, it's a vanishingly small percentage, far smaller than the average person's chances of dying if they catch covid-19. I'm hopeful as the vaccine-hesitant see people they know getting the shot, and those people are fine, their hesitancy will evaporate. The only path back to normalcy with this thing is vaccinations. We've already saw that with mutations you can get it again even if you've already had it. So the herd immunity thing via infection will never work. If enough people don't get vaccinated we'll still be dealing with outbreaks, deaths, lock downs, and masks 5 years from now. Would people rather have that than an extremely small risk from the vaccine?



You say extremely small risk, but that's the problem. Everyone is focused on what happens 2 hours to 2 weeks after. I don't care about a sore arm or chills, man up. But do we know, FOR SURE, that this brand new vaccine is safe long-term? Do human studies, not petri dishes or tests on rats, or 6-month small-sample trials show that long term? Of course not. They say it was thoroughly tested, but it wasn't. After developing a vaccine they watch for years afterwards for any possible implications.

"To support FDA approval, most vaccine clinical trials include substantially longer follow-up of trial participants to track both safety and efficacy. For example, for shingles vaccines, participants in Shingrix clinical trials were followed for a median of 3.1 years in one study and 3.9 years in another, and participants in Zostavax clinical trials were followed for a median of 1.3 years in one study and 3.1 years in another."

This was cooked up so quick it's not even formally approved. I understand the panic and need for the emergency use authorization. I just hope it all works out. I'd bet money it will, just not testing it myself.

I'm getting the J&J vaccine on Saturday, which I feel a little safer about. And do I recommend and hope others get it? Sure, it seems to be the only way out of this.


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## idleprocess (Mar 24, 2021)

markr6 said:


> You say extremely small risk, but that's the problem. Everyone is focused on what happens 2 hours to 2 weeks after. I don't care about a sore arm or chills, man up. But do we know, FOR SURE, that this brand new vaccine is safe long-term? Do human studies, not petri dishes or tests on rats, or 6-month small-sample trials show that long term? Of course not. They say it was thoroughly tested, but it wasn't. After developing a vaccine they watch for years afterwards for any possible implications.



In a way you're describing the gamble with _life_. We know the _first-order effect_ with COVID reasonably well - across a broad matrix of variables we can characterize its lethality rate, hospitalization rate, complication rate, etc. We've decided that these first order effects are a serious problem that demand a solution. The vaccine introduces a _second-order effect_ that while not as well understood as the first order effect of COVID, based on our current understanding will have impacts orders of magnitudes lower than COVID.

We see this dilemma elsewhere - an example that comes to mind is water quality. As far as I know every drinking water supply system has to release annual water quality reports which detail levels of specific contaminants in the water. Alongside this is a cottage industry of alarmist groups and those selling solutions to the 'problem' that nitpick the report and/or do their own assessments detailing trace levels of _other contaminants_ in the water - in both cases often suggesting safe levels of these trace compounds should be far lower than specified by the authorities. The unspoken reality of many of these _other contaminants_ is that they're unavoidable byproducts of water treatment and while potentially harmful, the risks they present generally amount to slightly elevated risks of rare cancers - assuming you chug a gallon or more of tap water for decades. Thus, the choice is either deal with very high odds of regularly contracting crypto, giardia, dysentery, and other dreadful waterborne pathogens or the very low odds of a cancer that's quite rare. I know what I'm choosing. I'm sure that someone somewhere sells filters, treatments, or special bottled water costing dollars per gallon that's free of these trace contaminants if it sets your mind at ease but that's an expensive way to remediate something that's verging on vanishingly rare.


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## markr6 (Mar 24, 2021)

I hear ya. Our tap water is excellent around here, but I also use a 3-stage filter for peace of mind. If they started using some new technology to treat the water, I would like to know before consuming that (and they did in the past)


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## badtziscool (Mar 24, 2021)

idleprocess said:


> In a way you're describing the gamble with _life_. We know the _first-order effect_ with COVID reasonably well - across a broad matrix of variables we can characterize its lethality rate, hospitalization rate, complication rate, etc. We've decided that these first order effects are a serious problem that demand a solution. The vaccine introduces a _second-order effect_ that while not as well understood as the first order effect of COVID, based on our current understanding will have impacts orders of magnitudes lower than COVID.
> 
> We see this dilemma elsewhere - an example that comes to mind is water quality. As far as I know every drinking water supply system has to release annual water quality reports which detail levels of specific contaminants in the water. Alongside this is a cottage industry of alarmist groups and those selling solutions to the 'problem' that nitpick the report and/or do their own assessments detailing trace levels of _other contaminants_ in the water - in both cases often suggesting safe levels of these trace compounds should be far lower than specified by the authorities. The unspoken reality of many of these _other contaminants_ is that they're unavoidable byproducts of water treatment and while potentially harmful, the risks they present generally amount to slightly elevated risks of rare cancers - assuming you chug a gallon or more of tap water for decades. Thus, the choice is either deal with very high odds of regularly contracting crypto, giardia, dysentery, and other dreadful waterborne pathogens or the very low odds of a cancer that's quite rare. I know what I'm choosing. I'm sure that someone somewhere sells filters, treatments, or special bottled water costing dollars per gallon that's free of these trace contaminants if it sets your mind at ease but that's an expensive way to remediate something that's verging on vanishingly rare.



That's a very good way of putting it. For the record. I'm 42 and still drink out of the water hose.


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## jtr1962 (Mar 24, 2021)

idleprocess said:


> I'm sure that someone somewhere sells filters, treatments, or special bottled water costing dollars per gallon that's free of these trace contaminants if it sets your mind at ease but that's an expensive way to remediate something that's verging on vanishingly rare.


The entire bottled water industry exists on the fear of people to drink tap water, even though as you say the risks are vanishingly small (unless you live in places like Flint). The irony is your risk of getting cancer is going to be higher drinking water that has been stored in a plastic bottle than just drinking tap water. That's not even getting into the enormous waste problem these bottles create. NYC took the first step of dealing with this problem. I just wish they would have banned the sale of bottled water in single use bottles entirely. That's probably the next step.


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## Lynx_Arc (Mar 24, 2021)

jtr1962 said:


> The entire bottled water industry exists on the fear of people to drink tap water, even though as you say the risks are vanishingly small (unless you live in places like Flint). The irony is your risk of getting cancer is going to be higher drinking water that has been stored in a plastic bottle than just drinking tap water. That's not even getting into the enormous waste problem these bottles create. NYC took the first step of dealing with this problem. I just wish they would have banned the sale of bottled water in single use bottles entirely. That's probably the next step.


I agree but am on both sides of the aisle on this issue as I've worked construction where it is hard to drag around a canteen or container that you can refill with water and for hygiene reasons PLUS this Covid stuff refilling containers is not the best thing for some people who have weaker immunity to the virus. Water fountains in most stores have been closed since this started so if you are thirsty and only need a drink of water then you either have to go to a restaurant and order a glass of water or sneak a drink out of someone's water hose or douse your face in a bird bath and hope there is no nasties there. I have a thermos that I take with me in my vehicle that is stainless and insulates anything for close to a day but it is too expensive to risk losing at a job site where you can be up on a lift and kick it off or in a ditch and forget about it or have it fall 4 stories off a building accidentally. I do think that we need more places have recycling bins just for plastics and aluminum cans that someone can call a number on the bin when it is full and get it emptied. Now that my city forced new trash service on us which includes free recycling bins (not free, they jacked the rates up and limited regular trash to 1/4 of what it was) I toss most things that are recyclable in it so as I keep my regular trash down and save 20 cents a bag for trash bags. I also save the Tshirt bags and give them to a local business that reuses them instead of buying new ones. I think this is better than just tossing them in a walmart shopping center recycle bin as it basically is like I didn't even use them to begin with and throw them away like most people do. I've now got into a habit of using the Tshirt bags in my trash cans indoors instead of tossing everything in a larger bag which saves me about $5-$10 a year I figure. One thing that some states used to do, and my state did at one time before plastic bottles came into being is charging 5-10 cents more a bottle when you buy them as a deposit and returning the money to you when you give them back. 
We used to save glass bottles and dig through dumpsters and pick up more bottles till cans came into being but we still had bottles and 32 oz glass bottles but the 2 liters wiped out the glass bottles for the most part. As much as I like glass more than plastic it can be more dangerous to deal with and heavy too. I'm guessing the amount of fuel saved by using plastic in shipping vs glass could add up to something over time. What would be cool is when plastic bottles are recycled at centers you could get points towards something that kids would love that way they would be the ones to drive their capture. The alternative is a type of bottle that is biodegradeable somehow.

The alternative to bottled water is bottled other beverages and that means more calories.


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## idleprocess (Mar 24, 2021)

Also a tad OT ...



jtr1962 said:


> The entire bottled water industry exists on the fear of people to drink tap water, even though as you say the risks are vanishingly small (unless you live in places like Flint).


Eh, tap water in the DFW area can be distinctly unpleasant during the ~4 months of peak summer heat. I gather this is because of summer treatment process switchover and the realities of algal blooms in area reservoirs. The only impact is taste, but I can understand why some would turn to alternatives.



jtr1962 said:


> NYC took the first step of dealing with this problem. I just wish they would have banned the sale of bottled water in single use bottles entirely. That's probably the next step.


The fact that bottled water is a thing in NYC confuses me since I've heard from multiple sources that NYC enjoys some of the best tap water in the nation.


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## jtr1962 (Mar 24, 2021)

idleprocess said:


> The fact that bottled water is a thing in NYC confuses me since I've heard from multiple sources that NYC enjoys some of the best tap water in the nation.


You and me both. Bottled water has a distinctly plastic taste to it. Our tap water is much better. In the summers there's a slight chlorine odor but that goes away if you let the water sit in sunlight.


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## raggie33 (Mar 24, 2021)

we just drank from the garden hose.


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## bykfixer (Mar 24, 2021)

^^after letting it run a few seconds to wash any critters out, right Ragae?


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## jtr1962 (Mar 24, 2021)

Lynx_Arc said:


> I agree but am on both sides of the aisle on this issue as I've worked construction where it is hard to drag around a canteen or container that you can refill with water and for hygiene reasons PLUS this Covid stuff refilling containers is not the best thing for some people who have weaker immunity to the virus. Water fountains in most stores have been closed since this started so if you are thirsty and only need a drink of water then you either have to go to a restaurant and order a glass of water or sneak a drink out of someone's water hose or douse your face in a bird bath and hope there is no nasties there. I have a thermos that I take with me in my vehicle that is stainless and insulates anything for close to a day but it is too expensive to risk losing at a job site where you can be up on a lift and kick it off or in a ditch and forget about it or have it fall 4 stories off a building accidentally. I do think that we need more places have recycling bins just for plastics and aluminum cans that someone can call a number on the bin when it is full and get it emptied. Now that my city forced new trash service on us which includes free recycling bins (not free, they jacked the rates up and limited regular trash to 1/4 of what it was) I toss most things that are recyclable in it so as I keep my regular trash down and save 20 cents a bag for trash bags. I also save the Tshirt bags and give them to a local business that reuses them instead of buying new ones. I think this is better than just tossing them in a walmart shopping center recycle bin as it basically is like I didn't even use them to begin with and throw them away like most people do. I've now got into a habit of using the Tshirt bags in my trash cans indoors instead of tossing everything in a larger bag which saves me about $5-$10 a year I figure. One thing that some states used to do, and my state did at one time before plastic bottles came into being is charging 5-10 cents more a bottle when you buy them as a deposit and returning the money to you when you give them back.
> We used to save glass bottles and dig through dumpsters and pick up more bottles till cans came into being but we still had bottles and 32 oz glass bottles but the 2 liters wiped out the glass bottles for the most part. As much as I like glass more than plastic it can be more dangerous to deal with and heavy too. I'm guessing the amount of fuel saved by using plastic in shipping vs glass could add up to something over time. What would be cool is when plastic bottles are recycled at centers you could get points towards something that kids would love that way they would be the ones to drive their capture. The alternative is a type of bottle that is biodegradeable somehow.
> 
> The alternative to bottled water is bottled other beverages and that means more calories.


I can agree there are niche uses to bottled water, perhaps more now thanks to the pandemic. Transitioning to aluminum might make more sense in the long run. The higher price due to the extra cost of aluminum would probably help wean a lot of people off bottled water who can just as easily drink tap water. Given that they have all sorts of faucet filters now it's hard to make a case for bottled water based on quality. Convenience? Maybe but why not do what I used to do when I worked outdoors in the heat? I put some ice and water in empty 2-liter soda bottles and bought those along. They stayed cold most of the day. I reused the same bottles over and over.


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## Lynx_Arc (Mar 24, 2021)

jtr1962 said:


> I can agree there are niche uses to bottled water, perhaps more now thanks to the pandemic. Transitioning to aluminum might make more sense in the long run. The higher price due to the extra cost of aluminum would probably help wean a lot of people off bottled water who can just as easily drink tap water. Given that they have all sorts of faucet filters now it's hard to make a case for bottled water based on quality. Convenience? Maybe but why not do what I used to do when I worked outdoors in the heat? I put some ice and water in empty 2-liter soda bottles and bought those along. They stayed cold most of the day. I reused the same bottles over and over.


I have too many heavy tools to haul around to take a lot of 2 liter bottles with me I tend to take a few 16 oz frozen bottles in an insulated pouch with 2 non frozen bottles and work that way but on hotter days I end up grabbing a few sealed bottles from the conex.
I have found the bottles water comes in not good for freezing I use 16.9oz pepsi bottles for that purpose.

I don't see no light at the end of the tunnel..... I instead hear more train noises that will continue on till probably mid next year.


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## jtr1962 (Mar 24, 2021)

Lynx_Arc said:


> I have too many heavy tools to haul around to take a lot of 2 liter bottles with me I tend to take a few 16 oz frozen bottles in an insulated pouch with 2 non frozen bottles and work that way but on hotter days I end up grabbing a few sealed bottles from the conex.
> I have found the bottles water comes in not good for freezing I use 16.9oz pepsi bottles for that purpose.


Smaller bottles work great also.



> I don't see no light at the end of the tunnel..... I instead hear more train noises that will continue on till probably mid next year.


Same here. Even if enough people in the US get vaccinated to get it under control we still have the rest of the world. Could be well into next year before most of the world's population is vaccinated.


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## Lynx_Arc (Mar 24, 2021)

jtr1962 said:


> Smaller bottles work great also.
> 
> 
> Same here. Even if enough people in the US get vaccinated to get it under control we still have the rest of the world. Could be well into next year before most of the world's population is vaccinated.


My concern is politics as this virus has been extremely profitable for a lot in power many have made billions and are continuing to make billions while others lost everything and I think some folks who are continue to profit may not want things to be normal again anytime soon.


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## turbodog (Mar 25, 2021)

Lynx_Arc said:


> My concern is politics as this virus has been extremely profitable for a lot in power many have made billions and are continuing to make billions while others lost everything and I think some folks who are continue to profit may not want things to be normal again anytime soon.



If by 'some people' you mean a fraction of a fraction of a fraction of a percent of people, then sure, outliers always exist. 

If you are talking about normal business owners who have been making money hand over fist for the last 12 months, no. All I have seen want things back to normal asap. 

I'm friends with owners of places that sell PPE. They are doing a year's worth of business each month and praying for this to be over. Also have clients in other industries that have been... buoyed upward. Same thing... when will this be over.

If you want it over ASAP, then encourage your vaccine-resistant friends/neighbors/relatives to get the shot. Probably the most effective thing you and I can actually do.


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## Lynx_Arc (Mar 25, 2021)

turbodog said:


> If by 'some people' you mean a fraction of a fraction of a fraction of a percent of people, then sure, outliers always exist.
> 
> If you are talking about normal business owners who have been making money hand over fist for the last 12 months, no. All I have seen want things back to normal asap.
> 
> ...


The way those who are "in charge" are acting about the vaccine I don't see any amount of people in the country vaccinated that will stop all this fiasco as if they don't trust it why bother with it at all?


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## idleprocess (Mar 25, 2021)

Lynx_Arc said:


> The way those who are "in charge" are acting about the vaccine I don't see any amount of people in the country vaccinated that will stop all this fiasco as if they don't trust it why bother with it at all?



Curious where you're getting this impression. The message I'm seeing from everyone I've paid attention to the government - Federal, state, local - is for almost everyone to get vaccinated. No one is claiming everything is hunky dory once you're vaccinated at present time, but as immunity is built up, precautionary measures can be scaled back.


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## markr6 (Mar 25, 2021)

Just listening to Biden talk...100million shots in 58 days I think. 50-something anyway. Way ahead of the 100-day goal. Now looking for 200M in first 100 days. Even though I'm not excited about the shot, I'm getting it in 2 days and I hope other hesitant people like me give in as well...just get this thing moving. I give up. If it _still_ doesn't get better, there will be all kinds of excuses like we waited to long to vaccinate with new variants, spring breakers, mask mandates ended too soon, etc. All of which could be real...or BS. We'll never know for sure.


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## Lynx_Arc (Mar 25, 2021)

idleprocess said:


> Curious where you're getting this impression. The message I'm seeing from everyone I've paid attention to the government - Federal, state, local - is for almost everyone to get vaccinated. No one is claiming everything is hunky dory once you're vaccinated at present time, but as immunity is built up, precautionary measures can be scaled back.


Who is immune? Is the vaccines making people immune? Is masks making people immune? If masks work then they are preventing immunity from building up, if they aren't working well then we are already having more immune people than realized. Does vaccines essentially make the majority of recipients immune? So far the so called "experts" are just dancing around and officials are doing things like double masking while they have already been vaccinated fully (twice). Is there other variants out there that the vaccines are ineffective or maybe different vaccines are not that effective or not? 
As I've said at the first all this shutting down and masking bit has IMO stifled herd immunity allowing time for new mutations to arise, the alternative would be more deaths in the past but the possibilities is more deaths in the future when some or all the vaccines are found.. ineffective and only those with natural immunity are actually immune and maybe not all of them either.
I've read that there is at least 4 different "strains" of C19, I don't know if that is true or there is more or how related these are or which of several vaccines are effective against what strains and so on. 
I may sound heartless but part of me wants a further ramp up of hospitals and let the virus more quickly make those at the least risk attack us and get natural immunity going quicker instead of waiting till next year (if we are lucky) to have this virus under control so the weak at heart won't faint when someone dies from it around them.


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## jtr1962 (Mar 25, 2021)

Herd immunity through infection will never work. People who have already been infected have gotten infected again with the variants. Estimates of trying for herd immunity in the US are 5 to 10 million deaths the first year, and 1 to 2 million deaths annually after that _forever _because people continue getting sick from the variants. To say herd immunity via infection is a reckless strategy is a gross understatement. Remember part of the reason for measures to limit spread is to keep hospitals from getting overwhelmed. With treatments the mortality rate is now likely below 1%. Without treatment, which is what happens when hospitals get overwhelmed, it's probably in the range of 5% to 10%.

The vaccines are in fact effective against most of the variants. We can test for that in less than a week.




> As I've said at the first all this shutting down and masking bit has IMO stifled herd immunity allowing time for new mutations to arise, the alternative would be more deaths in the past but the possibilities is more deaths in the future when some or all the vaccines are found.. ineffective and only those with natural immunity are actually immune and maybe not all of them either.


Your implicit assumption, which is wrong, is that a certain number of deaths are inevitable either way. That's easily proven false. So far, the countries which handled this the worst have over three orders of magnitude more deaths per capita than those which handled it the best. Eventually we'll be out of this once enough people are vaccinated. The countries which did everything right are going to come out of it with far fewer deaths. They're not going to magically catch up to the countries which handled this the worst in terms of deaths before everyone is vaccinated. Mitigation measures save lives overall. Lots of lives if done consistently. That's a fact.


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## turbodog (Mar 25, 2021)

Lynx_Arc said:


> ... allowing time for new mutations to arise...



Mutations depend on number of infections. Keep new cases down, keep new strains down.

No such thing as natural immunity against covid.

Vaccine immunity typically is far stronger than recovered immunity.

On a side note, is it just me or did we time warp back 9 months?


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## idleprocess (Mar 25, 2021)

Lynx_Arc said:


> Who is immune?


Someone whose body has possesses the means to fend off virus either through the chance of their makeup without exposure, past exposure that was successfully fended off, or via a vaccine that stimulates an immune response.



Lynx_Arc said:


> Is the vaccines making people immune?


I recall that the latest science says the Pfizer and Moderna 2-part vaccines are some ~90% effective at preventing infection at all and ~100% effective at preventing serious symptoms. The J&J vaccine isn't as effective at preventing an infection (I recall a 65% rating), however I do believe that it's almost as effective at preventing serious symptoms.

The vaccines don't have to be 100% effective at either stage to be effective - kneecapping the R naught will break the pandemic.



Lynx_Arc said:


> Is masks making people immune? If masks work then they are preventing immunity from building up, if they aren't working well then we are already having more immune people than realized.


Masks _interdict_ the virus to varying degrees, so _*no*_ they do not contribute to immunity, but they do critical work helping to prevent infection.



Lynx_Arc said:


> Does vaccines essentially make the majority of recipients immune?


Yes.



Lynx_Arc said:


> So far the so called "experts" are just dancing around and officials are doing things like double masking while they have already been vaccinated fully (twice). Is there other variants out there that the vaccines are ineffective or maybe different vaccines are not that effective or not?


Given that the vaccine rollout is slow, it can take time for the immune system response to kick in, that there are still unknowns as to whether a fully-vaccinated individual can still shed - or transport - sufficient particles to infect another non-vaccinated individual, and that even without vaccine reluctance there will be those that cannot be vaccinated it's reasonable to keep the mitigating protocols in effect.

Sucks that this doesn't just suddenly _end_ - I'd sure like it to - but that's the unfortunate reality of it.



Lynx_Arc said:


> As I've said at the first all this shutting down and masking bit has IMO stifled herd immunity


The period of time that would have to pass and the number of people that would have to die to develop 'natural' herd immunity would be ... staggering. Naturally-acquired immunity also doesn't seem to last long.



Lynx_Arc said:


> allowing time for new mutations to arise,


No, that's all about that _infection rate_ and natural selection favoring strains that reproduce faster. Had we been able to pretty solidly lock down, mask, and socially distance _a strong majority of the world_ for 6+ weeks a year ago the virus would have all but burned out. But for reasons that will surely be debated for the rest of our lives we didn't, so here we are.



Lynx_Arc said:


> but the possibilities is more deaths in the future when some or all the vaccines are found.. ineffective


As far as I know, the vaccines work on the 'spike protein' that binds to specific receptors, which is pretty fundamental to the virus and unlikely to undergo significant mutation. And while the full immunity numbers might decline as the virus mutates, the protection from serious illness _(and thus *probably* shedding enough virus to infect someone else)_ is likely to remain strong.

Expect annual booster shots to be a regular thing, akin to the annual flu shot but far better targeted.


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## bykfixer (Mar 25, 2021)

I see this thread headed in the same direction as the ones prior so I'll go off the rails a bit and ask two questions. 

1) If herd immunity through infection doesn't work then how can it be explained that the human race survived the 1918 pandemic? 

2) How can anybody be an expert on the future of a virus that just hit the world a year ago? 
2a) Is anybody here expert enough to predict such things? 

To me they are rhetorical, to others probably not.


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## jtr1962 (Mar 25, 2021)

bykfixer said:


> I see this thread headed in the same direction as the ones prior so I'll go off the rails a bit and ask two questions.
> 
> 1) If herd immunity through infection doesn't work then how can it be explained that the human race survived the 1918 pandemic?
> 
> ...



1) Influenza viruses mutate a lot more rapidly than coronaviruses. The pandemic ended in part because 1/3 of the world's population had been infected, developing immunity in the process, and the virus mutated to a less lethal form which continued to circulate for decades later.

2) Our tools are a lot better than in 1918. They sequenced this virus just weeks after it was discovered. Scientists say covid-19 is at least as deadly as the 1918 flu, perhaps even dealier. Fortunately, modern medicine has kept a lot of victims alive who otherwise would have perished.
2a) Those here mostly regurgitate the testimony of epidemiologists and/or make educated guesses based on that testimony.

Mankind obviously has survived every pandemic which hit it so far but the costs were often enormous. The black death for example killed 30% to 60% of Europe's population when it first appeared from 1346 to 1353. It reappeared on and off until the 19th century, each time exacting a gruesome toll before it burned itself out. With any luck we'll probably get out of this with 4 or 5 million deaths worldwide, or about 0.05% of the world's population. Thank modern medicine for that. Had this been 1918, the death toll likely would have been similar, perhaps 3% of the world's population, or about a quarter of a billion people.


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## bykfixer (Mar 25, 2021)

My point was just verified……


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## PhotonWrangler (Mar 25, 2021)

jtr1962 said:


> ...Our tools are a lot better than in 1918. They sequenced this virus just weeks after it was discovered..



Our tools are so much better now that we can actually see photographs of the virus thanks to scanning electron microscopes. These images are what those creepy CG coronavirus models are based on.


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## turbodog (Mar 25, 2021)

PhotonWrangler said:


> Our tools are so much better now that we can actually see photographs of the virus thanks to scanning electron microscopes. These images are what those creepy CG coronavirus models are based on.



https://www.giantmicrobes.com/us/products/coronavirus.html

Excellent gift for the medical people in your family. You can say you gave them coronavirus.


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## jtr1962 (Mar 25, 2021)

bykfixer said:


> My point was just verified……


My point is that no credible expert thinks herd immunity through infection is a viable strategy. Sure, in the past, that's how we got through pandemics simply because the technology of the time offered no alternatives. But the price was typically horrendous in terms of loss of life.

My second point is not all viewpoints should be given equal weight. There's a reason why people go through years of school, followed by decades of practical experience, to learn about a subject. Their views on that subject carry a lot more weight than those of people on the Internet who maybe spent 10 minutes learning about the same subject. It's frankly an insult to the experts when people with little knowledge on a subject act like they know everything. That includes all the elected officials who decided to ignore the advice of these experts. So when I keep hearing this "let it spread", herd immunity nonsense it strikes a raw nerve with me. I'll readily admit I'm not even close to an expert on this virus but I've at least taken the time to read about it for hours and hours in an attempt to be more knowledgeable. I may still sometimes say things which are incorrect. If offered links to information by _experts_ which refutes what I said, I'll gladly concede. That's how people learn.


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## bykfixer (Mar 26, 2021)

Allowing a cancer to spread unchecked when preventive measures are available would be foolish. So would allowing a deadly virus. We do agree on that part. 
I said it before, the human race does a helluva good job at spreading disease. No mandates, laws or scientific explanations will stop that part no matter how frustrating it is to those watching it happen. It's reality doing what reality does. 

However, if the population that is not largely harmed by covid-19 end up immune through the herd thing that in my view should not be dismissed. So to try to argue down a viewpoint of the possible benefits of the herd immunity aspect is kinda pointless really. A combination of prevention techniques, treatments, inoculation and herd immunity will eventually nip this thing in the bud. Looking at recent numbers shows that seems to be working. I use the term "seems to be" simply because it's still too early to tell. The millions who had covid with little to no effects has placed a large number into the immune category. For how long? It can only be guessed at this point. 

We have all kinds of technology we did not have 100 years ago. But we also still do a helluva good job at spreading disease. We likely always will despite mandates, treatments and inoculations. Especially in America where the population at large does not take well to being corraled, research be damned. 

One positive is polls that used to say more than half of the population says "no freaking way I'll get that shot" has now been whittled down to less than 1/5th of those asked. Around 30% say "I don't want to but, yeah ok"………


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## idleprocess (Mar 26, 2021)

bykfixer said:


> Allowing a cancer to spread unchecked when preventive measures are available would be foolish. So would allowing a deadly virus. We do agree on that part.
> I said it before, the human race does a helluva good job at spreading disease. No mandates, laws or scientific explanations will stop that part no matter how frustrating it is to those watching it happen. It's reality doing what reality does.


Upside of the hated mandates is that millions more of us _are around to complain about them_.


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## KITROBASKIN (Mar 26, 2021)

turbodog said:


> On a side note, is it just me or did we time warp back 9 months?



These are the threads of our lives. Truly a soap opera going on, amid the genuine suffering, death and sorrow. Hopefully a suitable resolution holds promise. Life is dangerous, after all.

One strain of opinion finds it convenient to not remember that the vast majority of younger, healthier humans are not prone to this disease. Some of the vehement are still proclaiming that if the human race would fall subject to a behavior-dictator, we all would have crawled into a hole for six weeks and this virus thing would have petered out way back when. 

What we are seeing here is that folks are getting more comfortable being out and about, and the Target store actually had some 91% topical alcohol in stock. Now if we can just ask Godzilla to get that container ship in the Suez Canal unstuck...


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## turbodog (Mar 26, 2021)

bykfixer said:


> ...
> 
> However, if the population that is not largely harmed by covid-19 end up immune through the herd thing that in my view should not be dismissed. ...



Given 1) current vaccine hesitancy and 2) NOT approved for <16 years old, we will NOT get herd immunity until BOTH these change.

Also, in the past, 'herd immunity' was reached (at times), but probably not in the way you envision. For things which do NOT impart lifetime immunity, the only 'herd immunity' we have was after the pathogen made enough 'rounds' to mutate to a less-lethal version.


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## jtr1962 (Mar 26, 2021)

bykfixer said:


> However, if the population that is not largely harmed by covid-19 end up immune through the herd thing that in my view should not be dismissed. So to try to argue down a viewpoint of the possible benefits of the herd immunity aspect is kinda pointless really. A combination of prevention techniques, treatments, inoculation and herd immunity will eventually nip this thing in the bud. Looking at recent numbers shows that seems to be working. I use the term "seems to be" simply because it's still too early to tell. The millions who had covid with little to no effects has placed a large number into the immune category. For how long? It can only be guessed at this point.





KITROBASKIN said:


> One strain of opinion finds it convenient to not remember that the vast majority of younger, healthier humans are not prone to this disease. Some of the vehement are still proclaiming that if the human race would fall subject to a behavior-dictator, we all would have crawled into a hole for six weeks and this virus thing would have petered out way back when.



That sounds good in theory until you consider the following:

1) The latest strains are affecting younger people more than original covid.

2) People who have been asymptomatic, or had mild symptoms, are ending up with long covid.

This disease has been nothing if not unpredictable from day one. When faced with something unknown, prudence dictates erring on the side of caution.

Also, in places which took mandates more seriously, they've largely returned to close to normal, even without a vaccine. The response in the US and some other countries, where we relax things as soon as numbers fall a little, reminds me of picking at a scab instead of just letting the cut heal. Hopefully thanks to the vaccine we're on a downward trajectory for good, but the road there didn't have to be this bumpy.


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## raggie33 (Mar 27, 2021)

should I wait for the vaccine? I hate I mean hate crowds so do you think I can wait till everyone else gets there shot ?


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## PhotonWrangler (Mar 27, 2021)

raggie33 said:


> should I wait for the vaccine? I hate I mean hate crowds so do you think I can wait till everyone else gets there shot ?




No Raggie. Get it as soon as you can. The sooner people get vaccinated the less variants can develop.


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## KITROBASKIN (Mar 27, 2021)

The vaccine destination where I got the first Pfizer was not crowded at all, with only dull, rarely distracting pain at point of injection for about 2 days. The nurse was a master of the needle. Booster next week.


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## bykfixer (Mar 27, 2021)

Check this little tool out……






A brass touch free tool. 
Staples office supply store sells these for a buck 50. Pull open doors, push open doors, flush toilets, ring door bells, use at self check out registers, punch in your code at the office printer and other stuff. Long after the pandemic is over cold and flu will still be around plus just germs in general.


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## raggie33 (Mar 27, 2021)

ok ill try to make it tomorrow I hope it don't rain my bike hates rain and I have no car


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## KITROBASKIN (Mar 28, 2021)

Perhaps some member here has a more definitive response, but I try to keep the shoulder/arm muscles soft and relaxed while getting a shot. Also low steady breathing with as relaxed a mindset as possible(?)

Maybe avoid the times when most people are likely to be getting their vaccine.

Hopefully we can continue to use this thread as forward looking, as opposed to backward admonishing as I have done.


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## markr6 (Mar 28, 2021)

I got the Johnson & Johnson shot yesterday. Zero feeling during and after. I'm pretty wiped out today though and was cold sleeping last night. Massive headache. Each location is different but this one was very smooth overall. 10 minutes waiting in line, 45 seconds in the shot booth and 10 minutes to sit and monitor.


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## Poppy (Mar 28, 2021)

KITROBASKIN said:


> Perhaps some member here has a more definitive response, but I try to keep the shoulder/arm muscles soft and relaxed while getting a shot. Also low steady breathing with as relaxed a mindset as possible(?)
> 
> Maybe avoid the times when most people are likely to be getting their vaccine.
> 
> Hopefully we can continue to use this thread as forward looking, as opposed to backward admonishing as I have done.


You are right.

When a needle is inserted, into and through the skin, there will be a sensation, like a mosquito bite, maybe less. Once through the skin, there is fat tissue, (no pain nerve endings) and then muscle tissue (no pain nerve endings). It is possible to hit a nerve fiber, a blood vessel, or a motor endplate (where a nerve connects to a muscle group). Any of those can send a pain signal. For the short period of time the needle is in the arm, it is certainly endurable. 

If one contracts his muscle when the needle is in place, and there is no movement, there will be no pain, however if one contracts the muscle, and there is movement of the limb, then there may be additional pain. The explanation would be a little longer and of no particular benefit.

So the short story.... don't move your arm while a needle is in it. 

As a side note: When I got my second injection, I felt no pain at all, even as the needle passed through the skin. They may be using thinner needles than they did originally.


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## PhotonWrangler (Mar 28, 2021)

Staples and Office Depot/OfficeMax are offering to laminate your Covid vaccination card for free. Mine is a flimsy piece of paper so I'll probably do this. 
ll


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## bykfixer (Mar 28, 2021)

went to an all you can eat buffet with 25% capacity, which meant 75% less crazy people. :twothumbs


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## PhotonWrangler (Mar 28, 2021)

bykfixer said:


> went to an all you can eat buffet with 25% capacity, which meant 75% less crazy people. :twothumbs




Wow. I haven't seen an open buffet in my area since the pandemic started. How are they handling the high-touch stuff like spoons and ladles?


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## markr6 (Mar 29, 2021)

PhotonWrangler said:


> Staples and Office Depot/OfficeMax are offering to laminate your Covid vaccination card for free. Mine is a flimsy piece of paper so I'll probably do this.
> ll




I wondered about these. Mine is on a heavier card stock but smaller than what I've seen in photos. Maybe it just appears that way.

The place I went just slapped a standard envelope label on it with the vaccine batch and "Wayne Co. Heath Dept." No writing whatsoever. If these are going to be keys to entry anywhere, anyone with a printer could make their own.


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## bykfixer (Mar 29, 2021)

PhotonWrangler said:


> Wow. I haven't seen an open buffet in my area since the pandemic started. How are they handling the high-touch stuff like spoons and ladles?



No more community silverware bins or plates or beverages. Servers wearing gloves and mask bring you that stuff. Napkin dispensers and hand cleaners everywhere. I used a napkin to grab the tongs you use for grabbing fried chicken, fish, salad etc with. Most others did as well. It was easy to keep 6' apart and everybody wore a mask away from their table. They would not let you in the place without a mask. 
With 25% allowable only about half of that were present. Most were loading to go containers. Meanwhile traditional places like a steak house or applebees were packed, which is one reason we picked the buffet joint. 
Red Lobster for example had a 45 minute wait. The buffet joint can hold about 300 people at 100% but there was only about 50 people dining in and about 10-20 at any point filling to go containers. I just did like most others and loaded 2 plates at once and avoided standing around people.


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## turbodog (Mar 29, 2021)

markr6 said:


> I wondered about these. Mine is on a heavier card stock but smaller than what I've seen in photos. Maybe it just appears that way.
> 
> The place I went just slapped a standard envelope label on it with the vaccine batch and "Wayne Co. Heath Dept." No writing whatsoever. If these are going to be keys to entry anywhere, anyone with a printer could make their own.



Good deal on the 'reproducing' option as I shredded mine.


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## markr6 (Mar 29, 2021)

turbodog said:


> Good deal on the 'reproducing' option as I shredded mine.




Oh no!!! Hopefully you can get a copy. Looks like there may be some need for it in the future...possibly. Getting into certain venues, flying, etc.


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## turbodog (Mar 29, 2021)

markr6 said:


> Oh no!!! Hopefully you can get a copy. Looks like there may be some need for it in the future...possibly. Getting into certain venues, flying, etc.



Around here if you have all your teeth they figure you got vaccinated.


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## PhotonWrangler (Mar 31, 2021)

Poppy said:


> As a side note: When I got my second injection, I felt no pain at all, even as the needle passed through the skin. They may be using thinner needles than they did originally.



I got my 2nd dose of Pfizer today and it barely felt like a mosquito bite. I agree that it's apparently a very fine needle. I'm guessing the medication is water based, not oil based so they can get away with a smaller needle.


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## Chauncey Gardiner (Mar 31, 2021)

:hahaha::hahaha::hahaha:


turbodog said:


> Around here if you have all your teeth they figure you got vaccinated.



Oh man, that's brutal! :lolsign::lolsign::lolsign:


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## orbital (Mar 31, 2021)

turbodog said:


> Around here if you have all your teeth they figure you got vaccinated.



+

Reminds me of this  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NdCc-IEKaD0 



______________________


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## KITROBASKIN (Mar 31, 2021)

Pfizer booster this afternoon as well. A lot more younger people getting it, but still the line was moving along. 
The card stock thickness, larger than a credit card vaccine record from the first shot was used again to write down the info for the booster. I figure taking a phone camera image will suffice in case someone asks if I'm vaccinated; not worrying about it. 

With a population of about 2 million, the state of New Mexico has had almost 4000 deaths, with about 25% of people aged 16 or older fully vaccinated so far. Current hospitalizations around a hundred and we had a couple days where no one is said to have died from COVID.


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## turbodog (Mar 31, 2021)

PhotonWrangler said:


> I got my 2nd dose of Pfizer today and it barely felt like a mosquito bite. I agree that it's apparently a very fine needle. I'm guessing the medication is water based, not oil based so they can get away with a smaller needle.



Not seeing water specifically listed...

WHAT ARE THE INGREDIENTS IN THE PFIZER-BIONTECH COVID-19 VACCINE?
The Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 Vaccine includes the following ingredients: mRNA,
*lipids *((4-hydroxybutyl)azanediyl)bis(hexane-6,1-diyl)bis(2-hexyldecanoate), 2
[(polyethylene glycol)-2000]-N,N-ditetradecylacetamide, 1,2-Distearoyl-sn-glycero-3-
phosphocholine, and cholesterol), potassium chloride, monobasic potassium
phosphate, sodium chloride, dibasic sodium phosphate dihydrate, and sucrose

Speaking of needle trivia. *You know they used to re-sharpen and re-use them?!*


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## bykfixer (Apr 1, 2021)

Trials on children taking place. Would you let your child be one of the trials? 
Thoughts?


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## Poppy (Apr 1, 2021)

A friend of mine wanted to be a part of one of the trials, and I told him he was nuts!

I would not participate, I certainly would not let my minor children (at this point, grand children) participate. These have been designated as safe for adults, and are most likely safe for minors. I'd prefer to let my kids/grandkids wait for the first million doses to be injected first.


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## markr6 (Apr 1, 2021)

With a modest 16% fully immunized in the US, I wish they would have waited on mentioning the children. Keep trying to convince the remaining adults to go for it instead.

That little hump starting a few days ago...hope I doesn't take off again.


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## bykfixer (Apr 1, 2021)

Poppy said:


> A friend of mine wanted to be a part of one of the trials, and I told him he was nuts!
> 
> I would not participate, I certainly would not let my minor children (at this point, grand children) participate. These have been designated as safe for adults, and are most likely safe for minors. I'd prefer to let my kids/grandkids wait for the first million doses to be injected first.



While listening to a radio show the host interviewed a mom who is director of medical something or other and she said she gladly allowed her (iirc) 9 and 12 year old children try the pfeizer shot. I thought "obviously not a mercury mom" and I wondered how many mercury mom's would get the shot(s) but not let their kids get them. 

I don't know what I would do if they offered it to my 4 year old grandson (and I had a say-so).


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## xxo (Apr 1, 2021)

markr6 said:


> That little hump starting a few days ago...hope I doesn't take off again.




It could get a whole lot worse before it gets better. There is a new mutated strain coming out of Brasil that can infect most people who have had corona before plus the new Brazilian strain is more contagious and more deadly. It is not known how much protection the current vaccines will provide, but it is expected to be much less than against the original strain. 

The CDC director lady was crying on TV about her sense of “impending doom” and how she is scared about a fourth wave, but not much on what she intends to do to about it, aside from asking us to hold on a little while longer.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OWcXI0yWeeQ


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## jtr1962 (Apr 1, 2021)

I'm guardedly hopeful, but at the same time acutely aware that this virus could well throw us another curve ball. Our best course of action at this point is to vaccinate people as rapidly as possible, and also keep at least mask mandates in place, if not restrictions on indoor group activities. If we hunker down for a few more months it could be close to over. On the other hand, continuing to relax restrictions, combined with more mutations, could put us right back where we were a year ago.


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## turbodog (Apr 1, 2021)

xxo said:


> ... how she is scared about a fourth wave, but not much on what she intends to do to about it, aside from asking us to hold on a little while longer.
> ...



We are still in a pandemic... which by definition kills by lack of resources to a degree. We still have a limited arsenal to deploy on a wide scale, so masks/distancing/etc may still be the only realistic & effective countermeasure, especially against a new strain for which we have no current/widespread vaccine.


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## xxo (Apr 1, 2021)

turbodog said:


> We are still in a pandemic... which by definition kills by lack of resources to a degree. We still have a limited arsenal to deploy on a wide scale, so masks/distancing/etc may still be the only realistic & effective countermeasure, especially against a new strain for which we have no current/widespread vaccine.



Trained medical personnel wearing real medical masks properly for medical procedures is one thing, but the old, dirty makeshift, improperly worn masks I see people wearing seem like more of a bad joke than any realistic or effective countermeasure. I think the mask mandates should end or at the very least lift them for people who have been vaccinated, which would be an added incentive to get vaccinated for some.

Washing or sanitizing your hands after touching anything someone else, outside of your immediate family, as soon as possible is far more effective. Unfortunately it seems that some people think that their (useless) mask is a talisman against covid and that hand washing is not a big deal if you wear a mask. It also seems that hand washing/sanitizing is not being emphasized like it was a year ago and I have noticed that hand sanitizing stations are beginning to disappear.


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## turbodog (Apr 1, 2021)

xxo said:


> Trained medical personnel wearing real medical masks properly for medical procedures is one thing, but the old, dirty makeshift, improperly worn masks I see people wearing seem like more of a bad joke than any realistic or effective countermeasure. I think the mask mandates should end or at the very least lift them for people who have been vaccinated, which would be an added incentive to get vaccinated for some.
> 
> Washing or sanitizing your hands after touching anything someone else, outside of your immediate family, as soon as possible is far more effective. Unfortunately it seems that some people think that their (useless) mask is a talisman against covid and that hand washing is not a big deal if you wear a mask. It also seems that hand washing/sanitizing is not being emphasized like it was a year ago and I have noticed that hand sanitizing stations are beginning to disappear.



As the mask discussions are a year old I'm proposing tabling more talk about efficacy/application and focusing on the topic at hand...


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## PhotonWrangler (Apr 4, 2021)

So I had a tiny bit of nausea on and off for a couple of days following the second vaccine shot. It was somewhat fleeting and often a glass of cola would eliminate it. I've been trying to decide whether this was a real symptom of the vaccination or whether it was the 'nocebo effect,' essentially a fear of getting sick because of the stories I've read about the second dose. This seems to be a real thing - a generalized anxiety about getting the second dose that may or may not be warranted. I know of one individual who got head-to-toe body aches (without fever) from the second shot but I know more people, including a family member, that had zero detectable symptoms from it. 

Whatever the cause, it was still well worth it to get this over with.


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## Katherine Alicia (Apr 5, 2021)

I know everyone`s different but if you Can, get your shot in the Morning, that way if there`s any effects most will had during the night while you`re asleep so it doesn`t matter so much. I had my 1`st shot at 10Am, by about 10Pm I was seriously tired, headache, and a bit achey, I woke up at 6:30Am feeling battered like I`d been run over by a steam roller, by 10:30Am I was all back to 100% normal like nothing had ever happened, it was bizzare! LOL 
But just try to remember that you`re not Actually sick and there`s nothing really wrong with you, it`s just your immune system kicking ***.


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## turbodog (Apr 5, 2021)

Good read on the j&j version: decisions to make, etc.

https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2021/04/the-story-of-one-dose.html


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## idleprocess (Apr 5, 2021)

turbodog said:


> Good read on the j&j version: decisions to make, etc.
> 
> https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2021/04/the-story-of-one-dose.html



Fascinating read.


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## markr6 (Apr 5, 2021)

Good stuff! I still can't believe people are smart enough to figure this stuff out...chemistry, biology, all of it. Even 100 year ago. So beyond me.

I laughed at the "rounding error" regarding shipping. No kidding. UPS is a machine! Great company.

On another note, I can't figure out what the heck is going on in Michigan. Focus on the "thumb". There's not a lot going on there in general; I guess the virus is getting painted into a corner? Nowhere else to go? Really weird compared to the states around it.


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## Poppy (Apr 7, 2021)

Things are getting better. :thumbsup:

Amazon's next day delivery only took two days!


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## WarriorOfLight (Apr 7, 2021)

Poppy said:


> Amazon's next day delivery only took two days!


That sounds good. On my location also toilet paper is no issue at all.

I am quite sure that we will struggle with Covid and the mutations for a longer time, since there is no real solution if ~1.000.000.000 people are vaccinated and ~6.800.000.000 not. Than there is enough possibility for a 'bad' mutation. And we all know that only one strain is enough to shut us all down.
And it should also be clear, that we might be happy about a death rate that is between 1-5%. If the rate would be in the range of the bird flu (10-50% - it is quite 'unclear' and depending on the numbers) we would not be that relaxed and discuss here about flashlights.

My guess is at least for the next 10 years we will have the possibility of getting a vaccination every year for Covid also like we have for the flu also.

Actually everywhere vaccine manufacturing capacities are growing. I am quite sure if we have the ability to produce as much vaccine that 60-70% of all people on this pale blue dot may be vaccinated within 6-12 month than we are more on the safe side...


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## nbp (Apr 8, 2021)

My age bracket only became eligible for vaccine 3 days ago, so I hadn't been paying close attention to where I needed to go to get one. Some friends told me that Sam's Club was offering them to non-members, and you could walk in without and appointment and get the J n J shot. I kinda stopped being worried about C19 for myself a while ago as it seems almost impossible that I haven't already gotten it at this point, but I feel like I might need to have that silly card on hand to do fun things in the near future, so I may as well get vac'd. So I stopped in there today, and boom, 45 min later walked out with my vaccination card. So, I guess that is all done with. Easy peasy.


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## bykfixer (Apr 8, 2021)

I heard on the radio that Germany is looking at buying covid shots from Russia. It's called the Sputnik V. 
No kidding. 

Between my "job" and age group I could get in line but since there are still tons of people who need it worse than I do I'll wait a little while longer. In my area there are a lot of folks who deal with the public a lot more than I do and have more health conditions. So now that supply is ample they have the chance to receive the shot. Once all of the teachers, wait staff, grocery store folks and the like have had a chance I'll go. I'm pretty much a hermit so I can wait.


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## turbodog (Apr 8, 2021)

nbp said:


> My age bracket only became eligible for vaccine 3 days ago, so I hadn't been paying close attention to where I needed to go to get one. Some friends told me that Sam's Club was offering them to non-members, and you could walk in without and appointment and get the J n J shot. I kinda stopped being worried about C19 for myself a while ago as it seems almost impossible that I haven't already gotten it at this point, but I feel like I might need to have that silly card on hand to do fun things in the near future, so I may as well get vac'd. So I stopped in there today, and boom, 45 min later walked out with my vaccination card. So, I guess that is all done with. Easy peasy.



*Know for sure, donate blood. They run a c-19 antibody test.*

If you didn't feel like real crap after the shot you probably did NOT have c-19 in the past. We are seeing c-19 patients exhibit much stronger post-vaccination symptoms: higher fevers, longer fevers, much more aches, lasting days instead of hours, etc.


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## markr6 (Apr 9, 2021)

I really wish I could have taken an antibody test before getting the shot. Just to satisfy my curiosity. I would be absolutely shocked if I didn't have covid at some point without knowing in the past year. I was semi-cautious but still out and about a lot and around people at work who had it.

But I wouldn't be surprised if my immune system knocked it out cold. I'm not a fanatic but a big believer in keeping healthy with easy and rather inexpensive steps just for peace of mind - daily multivitamin, vitamin D, quercetin+zinc, raw fruits and vegetables, one clove of raw garlic per day (chop up and swallow...I'd recommend not chewing!!) And of course, enough SLEEP!! Don't cheat there...you're not fooling your body even if you feel OK after just 5 hours.


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## KITROBASKIN (Apr 9, 2021)

[FONT=&quot]From healthline website:
"On its own, quercetin has a low bioavailability, which means your body absorbs it poorly... 

some research indicates that quercetin has a synergistic effect when combined with other flavonoid supplements, such as resveratrol, genistein, and catechins...

Quercetin may improve inflammation, blood pressure, exercise performance, and blood sugar management.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]In addition, it may have brain-protective, anti-allergy and anticancer properties. Still, more research in humans is needed.

Quercetin is found naturally in many plant-based foods, particularly in the outer layer or peel

[/FONT]


capers
peppers — yellow and green
onions — red and white
shallots
asparagus — cooked
cherries
tomatoes
red apples
red grapes
broccoli
kale
red leaf lettuce
berries — all types, such as cranberries, blueberries, and raspberries"


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## markr6 (Apr 9, 2021)

That's why I take it with zinc. Could be BS but doesn't seem detrimental. I currently have everything you listed there in my kitchen except kale, capers and shallots. Blueberries...taste like candy right now!

In the vitamin aisle, there are 500 bottles that all say "may improve..." You just have to pick one or two really, if any. Sometimes I'll try different things. The multivitamin is the only permanent go-to.


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## nbp (Apr 9, 2021)

turbodog said:


> *Know for sure, donate blood. They run a c-19 antibody test.*
> 
> If you didn't feel like real crap after the shot you probably did NOT have c-19 in the past. We are seeing c-19 patients exhibit much stronger post-vaccination symptoms: higher fevers, longer fevers, much more aches, lasting days instead of hours, etc.





Yeah, I can't say for sure that I have had it, but I have been around a lot of people, so it sure seems crazy that I avoided it. Like markr6, I would not be surprised at all if I was asymptomatic. I rarely ever get sick, so it's entirely possible I had it and it wasn't enough to notice. Anyways, as far as JnJ side effects - I had some chills before bedtime, and woke up sweaty in the middle of the night. Went right back to sleep and when I got up this morning for work I basically felt back to normal. So, all in all it was not bad at all.


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## Mark Montgomery (Apr 10, 2021)

I was offered the vaccine through the college I attend, the program is next Wednesday, it will be nice to not have to worry after I have complete the vaccine series.


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## bykfixer (Apr 10, 2021)

Ok, so in a basic sense how does the shot work? Is it actually molecules of the virus in there that cause the body to go "danger danger Will Robinson" and start producing antibodies? Or is it say a synthetic DNA of said virus that does same. 
I've heard so many people say so many things like it's not vurus you get injected with. Yet many say they have mild flu like symptons after getting the shot.


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## Katherine Alicia (Apr 10, 2021)

from my understanding it`s a "look-alike" of the real thing, like an empty Trojan horse. Our immune system then makes antibodies that are matched to killing things with this exact same shape.


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## nbp (Apr 10, 2021)

bykfixer said:


> Ok, so in a basic sense how does the shot work? Is it actually molecules of the virus in there that cause the body to go "danger danger Will Robinson" and start producing antibodies? Or is it say a synthetic DNA of said virus that does same.
> I've heard so many people say so many things like it's not vurus you get injected with. Yet many say they have mild flu like symptons after getting the shot.




Correct, there is no C19 virus put inside you. For Pfizer and Moderna it is mRNA based. Messenger RNA strands are the instructions for making a protein. The lab synthesized mRNA they put in you is the instructions for a protein that looks just like the spike protein on the SARS COV 2 virus. That is the surface protein that binds with the receptors in your cells that allows it to enter them. So your cell gets those instructions and the ribosomes, which are the protein factories in your cells, make the new protein. It migrates to the surface of the cell and gets spit out where your immune system sees it as a foreign invader and begins to create antibodies to recognize and destroy it. Ones it gets practice on this benign protein, if it does see the SARS CoV 2 virus in the future your body will recognize that spike protein and know how to attack it and destroy it. The JnJ works pretty similar but it starts with using a modified adenovirus as the vector to get some DNA into the cells and the then cells read that and make the mRNA for the protein on their own. I think the main advantage there is that DNA is a more robust and durable molecule than RNA which is why you just need one dose and you can keep it at fridge temps instead of deep freeze.


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## orbital (Apr 10, 2021)

nbp said:


> Correct, there is no C19 virus put inside you. For Pfizer and Moderna it is mRNA based. Messenger RNA strands are the instructions for making a protein. The lab synthesized mRNA they put in you is the instructions for a protein that looks just like the spike protein on the SARS COV 2 virus. That is the surface protein that binds with the receptors in your cells that allows it to enter them. So your cell gets those instructions and the ribosomes, which are the protein factories in your cells, make the new protein. It migrates to the surface of the cell and gets spit out where your immune system sees it as a foreign invader and begins to create antibodies to recognize and destroy it. Ones it gets practice on this benign protein, if it does see the SARS CoV 2 virus in the future your body will recognize that spike protein and know how to attack it and destroy it. The JnJ works pretty similar but it starts with using a modified adenovirus as the vector to get some DNA into the cells and the then cells read that and make the mRNA for the protein on their own. I think the main advantage there is that DNA is a more robust and durable molecule than RNA which is why you just need one dose and you can keep it at fridge temps instead of deep freeze.



+

Good post ^

Is there data on: the effect vaccination 'instructions' have if someone carries the natural antibodies already? 

_______________________________________________________________

My brother had c19 and had two serology tests _(positive_) told me he was getting the vaccination anyway,, I asked *WHY!!??*


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## vadimax (Apr 10, 2021)

One medical biology professor that is not participating in all that making people even more stupid than they already are told me that those people that carry the Herpes group virus (those are 5) will never be affected with any COVID one. The Herpes group is extremely strong (practically no cure) and they destroy COVID virus as a competitor. There are some 60% of human beings that carry Herpes virus in active or dormant form.

This way if you carry Herpes and have made a shot, you did this in vain.

Even more funny: Russia declared that their Sputnik V is super-puper effective in The Lancet. Many governments decided to buy it. But Slovakia being ex-Soviet slave perfectly knew who they are dealing with. They ran a test and discovered that Russia sells something that is not even close to the vaccine described in The Lancet... Who could even imagine, huh?!


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## orbital (Apr 10, 2021)

+

There is vain & there is the possibility of antagonistic effect.

..likely; an antagonistic effect would not be allowed to be published, spinning to efficacy rates of vaccinations ect..


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## nbp (Apr 10, 2021)

vadimax said:


> One medical biology professor that is not participating in all that making people even more stupid than they already are told me that those people that carry the Herpes group virus (those are 5) will never be affected with any COVID one. The Herpes group is extremely strong (practically no cure) and they destroy COVID virus as a competitor. There are some 60% of human beings that carry Herpes virus in active or dormant form.
> 
> This way if you carry Herpes and have made a shot, you did this in vain.
> 
> Even more funny: Russia declared that their Sputnik V is super-puper effective in The Lancet. Many governments decided to buy it. But Slovakia being ex-Soviet slave perfectly knew who they are dealing with. They ran a test and discovered that Russia sells something that is not even close to the vaccine described in The Lancet... Who could even imagine, huh?!




If 60% of people were protected from COVID19 by Herpes virus, we would have reached herd immunity almost immediately. I don't think I believe this. Any sources for this claim?


----------



## PhotonWrangler (Apr 10, 2021)

nbp said:


> If 60% of people were protected from COVID19 by Herpes virus, we would have reached herd immunity almost immediately. I don't think I believe this. Any sources for this claim?




I'm skeptical of this claim also. While I have absolutely no medical training, I've never heard of a virus attacking another virus. A virus attacks it's host cell, not a competing virus. Please enlighten us on this claim.


----------



## Poppy (Apr 10, 2021)

A quick search of medical literature seems to indicate that Covid-19 *may bring about* herpes simplex, and herpes zoster signs and symptoms. I found NO literature that indicated previous infection with either virus inhibited ANY corona virus. 


I also doubt that herpes infection could cause herd immunity of covid-19.


----------



## cave dave (Apr 10, 2021)

Herpes zoster, also known as shingles, is caused by the reactivation of the varicella-zoster virus (VZV), the same virus that causes varicella (chickenpox). So basically someone is saying that if you ever had Chickenpox you are immune? This seems unlikely to the point of being ludicrus.


----------



## Poppy (Apr 10, 2021)

cave dave said:


> Herpes zoster, also known as shingles, is caused by the reactivation of the varicella-zoster virus (VZV), the same virus that causes varicella (chickenpox). *So basically someone is saying that if you ever had Chickenpox you are immune? This seems unlikely to the point of being ludicrus*.


Emphasis mine... OR if you have been immunized to chicken pox, you are immune.

WHY did they go through all the expense and effort to create a new vaccine?

Yes... absurd!


----------



## Scotty321 (Apr 10, 2021)

orbital said:


> +
> 
> Good post ^
> 
> ...



I don't have data, but I have two cousins on opposite coasts that work in the medical field. Both contracted the virus over the last twelve months, both recovered, and both later received a vaccination. IIRC, after the second shot one reported a headache for an hour and the other felt lethargic for about a day.

Please don't make any inferences from my statement. I'm just simply saying what happened to them.


----------



## turbodog (Apr 10, 2021)

orbital said:


> ...
> 
> My brother had c19 and had two serology tests _(positive_) told me he was getting the vaccination anyway,, I asked *WHY!!??*



In the VAST majority of vaccines, the vaccine will give you MORE protection than having gotten/recovered from a disease.


----------



## turbodog (Apr 10, 2021)

vadimax said:


> One medical biology professor that is not participating in all that making people even more stupid than they already are told me that those people that carry the Herpes group virus (those are 5) will never be affected with any COVID one. The Herpes group is extremely strong (practically no cure) and they destroy COVID virus as a competitor....
> 
> ...



This is an extremely strong assertion, which requires equally strong proof/citations.

That said, I'm calling BS on this one due to viruses not being alive and not able to attack anything.


----------



## turbodog (Apr 10, 2021)

markr6 said:


> I really wish I could have taken an antibody test before getting the shot. Just to satisfy my curiosity. ...



I was pretty sure, but wanted to check before posting.

*Current tests CAN tell the difference between infection antibodies and vaccines ones.* So, get your test and know for sure.


----------



## PhotonWrangler (Apr 10, 2021)

turbodog said:


> I was pretty sure, but wanted to check before posting.
> 
> *Current tests CAN tell the difference between infection antibodies and vaccines ones.* So, get your test and know for sure.




This is good to know. I might go for a test also.


----------



## turbodog (Apr 10, 2021)

PhotonWrangler said:


> This is good to know. I might go for a test also.



Not sure which test blood donation places use... but if they use the correct test, that's a good place to get a free test and save a life.


----------



## orbital (Apr 11, 2021)

turbodog said:


> In the VAST majority of vaccines, the vaccine will give you MORE protection than having gotten/recovered from a disease.



+

Maybe so, but if someone has the natural anti bodies, they are in the *goal Immunity* number.

_not interested in sheep or herd wording_


----------



## turbodog (Apr 11, 2021)

orbital said:


> +
> 
> Maybe so, but if someone has the natural anti bodies, they are in the *goal Immunity* number.
> 
> _not interested in sheep or herd wording_




I should have been more verbose. Vaccines typically (almost always) cause your body to exhibit a *stronger *response to a pathogen for a *longer *time than simply having recovered from a disease.

So if your desired outcome is 'goal' immunity, you're going to have a harder time reaching your goal and sustaining your goal.

In summary, get a vaccine.


----------



## markr6 (Apr 12, 2021)

AHhh!! So sick of hearing about this 24/7 for over a year now. I wish they would send a bunch of stealthy ninjas with blow darts to hit everyone with the vaccine. Or some kind of crop dusting method. Get this thing over with.

Michigan is now above where it was back at the peak in Nov/Dec. Crazy!


----------



## bykfixer (Apr 13, 2021)

Blood clots?!?? Yikes!! 

If I recall correct the words blood clots were used before the J&J shot was released to the public. Not like 1 out every 22 or anything like that but it was mentioned if I recall correct. 
So why is it now a big deal? Is it because a prominent American Senator's grand mother has a side affect? Or is it a growing trend where it went from something like 1 per million to 1 per 200,000?
I have not found any info that I find credible and every time I try to read Web MD I get a pop up that says my device has spyware.……


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## Katherine Alicia (Apr 13, 2021)

I`ll bet most of those yapping on about clots would think nothing of taking a long flight to a holiday destination, something known to increase DVT far above that of any vaccine.


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## ledbetter (Apr 13, 2021)

One dead and one critical out of over 6 million doses. Lower numbers than deaths caused by annual flu shot. Hold on vaccine looks like a combination of hyper caution and the destruction of a million plus doses at the faulty Baltimore lab. Pfizer and Moderna are equal to the task of taking up the slack as long as people are willing to take it. J&J is only 5% of jabs before this problem. On a personal note, second jab of Moderna kicked my butt and was in bed for almost three days with flu like symptoms. Doctors say this is a healthy response of immune system!?! Wish I got J&J.

That light at the end of the tunnel is looking more like my old maglite before I malkoffed it...


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## markr6 (Apr 13, 2021)

6 out of almost 7 million. If you took 7 million people and gave each of them an Advil, I would imagine the number would be similar. Can they directly blame it on the vaccine? And who are these people? They only said women 18-48 that I can see. Is it possible all 6 individuals do not exercise at all and eat at Waffle House twice a week?

It would be important to know more information. Instead the news sites plaster this all over, which is doing absolutely nothing to further the vaccination efforts.


----------



## jtr1962 (Apr 13, 2021)

Yeah, I saw the gloom and doom news stories about this today. Then I found out it was only 6 people. I understand they're doing this out of "an abundance of caution" but haven't they considered that one possible side effect of pulling the vaccine now will be to make some of those on the fence more reluctant to get vaccinated, even with Pfizer or Moderna? Like you said, 6 complications out of almost 7 million doses could easily be chalked up to random health issues.


----------



## bykfixer (Apr 13, 2021)

A guy on the radio said 38 million cases of flu were reported in the US in 2019. He followed it up by saying one thousand eight hundred cases have been reported this year as of mid-March. 
That's crazy... in a good way. 

Last year I had the worst allergy issues in years. This year, so far nowhere near as bad even though the air where I live has a yellow tinge when seen at a distance. 

I don't know if the mask works to help with the pandemic or not but it sure does seem to have made an impact on the flu and allergy conditions in the US. Well that and office dwellers working at home.


----------



## PhotonWrangler (Apr 13, 2021)

I heard a physician on the radio this morning who said that you're far more likely to get a blood clot from Covid than from the vaccine. This lines up with other information I've seen last year where they found that Covid was causing clotting in some patients.


----------



## jtr1962 (Apr 13, 2021)

bykfixer said:


> A guy on the radio said 38 million cases of flu were reported in the US in 2019. He followed it up by saying one thousand eight hundred cases have been reported this year as of mid-March.
> That's crazy... in a good way.
> 
> Last year I had the worst allergy issues in years. This year, so far nowhere near as bad even though the air where I live has a yellow tinge when seen at a distance.
> ...


Here's how I look at it. They regularly wear these masks in Chinese cities where the pollution looks thick enough to cut with a knife. Evidently the masks help a lot with that, so doubtless they're also helpful for allergies, as well as the flu. The flu numbers are amazing if true. And yeah, people staying home more helps a lot also.


----------



## Chauncey Gardiner (Apr 13, 2021)

bykfixer said:


> *A guy on the radio said 38 million cases of flu were reported in the US in 2019. He followed it up by saying one thousand eight hundred cases have been reported this year as of mid-March.
> That's crazy... in a good way. *
> 
> Last year I had the worst allergy issues in years. This year, so far nowhere near as bad even though the air where I live has a yellow tinge when seen at a distance.
> ...



Did the guy on the radio offer any explanation for this? If the low number of flu cases is due to people wearing masks and all the other precautions why are people still becoming ill from COVID? Common sense leads one to believe, either a lot of those COVID cases were actually the flu or masks work better at preventing the flu than they do preventing COVID.


----------



## jabe1 (Apr 13, 2021)

Mask wearing, hand washing and “social distancing” are generally a good way to prevent infectious disease spread. The numbers are still high due to the fact that Covid specifically is more contagious than an average flu, and there is still a portion of the population that don’t understand or care about protecting themselves
or others; along with the many people who must remain out and about so that we all may keep living the way we are used to.


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## bykfixer (Apr 13, 2021)

The guy on the radio said "we've evidently cured the flu" lol. 
CG, it was a replay by a prominent talk show host who just went to the golden EIB microphone in the sky.


----------



## raggie33 (Apr 13, 2021)

i went to pharmacy friday and forgot to put on mask now i know i may have dementia


----------



## scout24 (Apr 14, 2021)

Raggie- A couple of weeks ago I made it about 50 feet into our grocery store with a cart before realizing I'd left my mask in the car. You'd think after a year it would be second nature. It's not just you...


----------



## Lynx_Arc (Apr 14, 2021)

raggie33 said:


> i went to pharmacy friday and forgot to put on mask now i know i may have dementia



I've forgotten my mask a dozen times or more. I took a walk last night and was going to go into several stores but realized I didn't take a mask with me. People have spent 20-50+ years without ever masking and to expect them to be able to fend off a "maskless" habit is expecting a lot IMO.


----------



## markr6 (Apr 14, 2021)

jtr1962 said:


> Yeah, I saw the gloom and doom news stories about this today. Then I found out it was only 6 people. I understand they're doing this out of "an abundance of caution" but haven't they considered that one possible side effect of pulling the vaccine now will be to make some of those on the fence more reluctant to get vaccinated, even with Pfizer or Moderna? Like you said, 6 complications out of almost 7 million doses could easily be chalked up to random health issues.




_ ‘It felt like I couldn’t breathe’: Personal reaction to the Johnson and Johnson vaccine_

Big bold headlines like this on my local news site are totally counterproductive to what we're trying to accomplish. Report the news. Don't hide the fact people had a reaction, but don't make a huge spectacle of it either.

Sexy news headlines and clickbait always win.


----------



## turbodog (Apr 14, 2021)

PhotonWrangler said:


> I heard a physician on the radio this morning who said that you're far more likely to get a blood clot from Covid than from the vaccine. This lines up with other information I've seen last year where they found that Covid was causing clotting in some patients.



Of the 4 family members we lost to covid, one lost all 10 toes from *clots *and half of one finger before they succumbed to it. I'd take my chances with any vaccine before getting covid.


----------



## nbp (Apr 14, 2021)

CDC website says some 900,000 Americans get blood clots annually with 60,000-100,000 dying from them. So, 1 death out of 7,500,000 is several orders of magnitude better than your normal odds of getting and dying from blood clots. If there is any connection it must be an exceptionally rare condition those ladies have that would cause that reaction.


----------



## markr6 (Apr 15, 2021)

In my age range, 2143x more likely to die from covid than a clot from the shot.

Both Rona and J&J shot are trying to kill me! Take a number and get in line...behind the flaming meteor.


----------



## badtziscool (Apr 15, 2021)

Chauncey Gardiner said:


> Did the guy on the radio offer any explanation for this? If the low number of flu cases is due to people wearing masks and all the other precautions why are people still becoming ill from COVID? Common sense leads one to believe, either a lot of those COVID cases were actually the flu or masks work better at preventing the flu than they do preventing COVID.



I can't say whether the numbers quoted are exactly true, but it does make sense. You have to consider how contagious a particular disease is. If something is extremely contagious, then you would expect that even with mitigation efforts, you're still going to have infections, though it probably won't be as high as without mitigation. If those same mitigation efforts also prevents the spread of another disease but is much less contagious, then you'd expect infection numbers of that disease to be much lower and mitigation efforts to be more effective.

And that's what we have here. COVID-19 is found to be more contagious than Flu.


----------



## Katherine Alicia (Apr 15, 2021)

Ok, so I`m curious now, Hypothetically, if the planet had a complete lockdown for say 4 weeks or so, would it be possible to have gotten rid of flu entirely? A bit like we`re hoping to do with covid.

It would be kinda nice to have a flu as something written about in history books.


----------



## badtziscool (Apr 15, 2021)

Katherine Alicia said:


> Ok, so I`m curious now, Hypothetically, if the planet had a complete lockdown for say 4 weeks or so, would it be possible to have gotten rid of flu entirely? A bit like we`re hoping to do with covid.
> 
> It would be kinda nice to have a flu as something written about in history books.



I wouldn't think so. You'd have to have every single person in the entire world isolated for that time period. And that's assuming that there does not exist any other carriers of the disease, because there might be other animals or insects that is not necessarily be affected by the disease but can carry it and keep it alive until it infects a human host.

And to add to that, there very well could be certain surfaces, environments, or circumstances that can harbor the disease for an extended period of time just waiting to infect a human host.


----------



## turbodog (Apr 15, 2021)

Katherine Alicia said:


> Ok, so I`m curious now, Hypothetically, if the planet had a complete lockdown for say 4 weeks or so, would it be possible to have gotten rid of flu entirely? A bit like we`re hoping to do with covid.
> 
> It would be kinda nice to have a flu as something written about in history books.



Would have to see how long can it live on surfaces and other long-dormant infection vectors.


----------



## turbodog (Apr 15, 2021)

FYI, the 2 tests out that can tell the difference between 'natural' covid and 'vaccine' covid are called...

sars cov 2 antibody and sars cov 2 spike antibody

Saw lab results yesterday from a patient that had both test run simultaneously.


----------



## jtr1962 (Apr 15, 2021)

Katherine Alicia said:


> Ok, so I`m curious now, Hypothetically, if the planet had a complete lockdown for say 4 weeks or so, would it be possible to have gotten rid of flu entirely? A bit like we`re hoping to do with covid.
> 
> It would be kinda nice to have a flu as something written about in history books.


Well, there are universal flu vaccines in the works. If successful, we could be on the way to dramatically reducing the number of flu cases. We probably won't get rid of it entirely, however. We've only successfully eradicated a few diseases. The idea is to make it so uncommon that it's no longer a problem.


----------



## xxo (Apr 15, 2021)

Katherine Alicia said:


> Ok, so I`m curious now, Hypothetically, if the planet had a complete lockdown for say 4 weeks or so, would it be possible to have gotten rid of flu entirely? A bit like we`re hoping to do with covid.
> 
> It would be kinda nice to have a flu as something written about in history books.



Flu usually starts in birds and spreads to people as it mutates, sometimes going through another animal in between birds and humans. Flu usually breaks out first in places where high densities of people and birds/farm animals are close contact such as parts of China. So as long as birds/farm animals have flu people will get it too.


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## Katherine Alicia (Apr 15, 2021)

Pity really, I thought Now would have been a good time to finish it off while it`s on the back foot so to speak.


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## jtr1962 (Apr 15, 2021)

Katherine Alicia said:


> Pity really, I thought Now would have been a good time to finish it off while it`s on the back foot so to speak.


I'm wondering if we might have very low flu numbers at least for the next few years because we have flu "on the ropes" now, so to speak. Some of the measures we've taken during the pandemic, especially washing hands, will probably stay with us for a long time. I plan to wear masks when going in indoor public places for a while, maybe forever, even once this is officially over. I figure it can't hurt. It might actually keep me from getting sick. Then you have the improvements to air filtration some places made. So long as the filters are maintained (that's a big if), then that could help, also. And it looks like hand-shaking might actually be a thing of the past. Can't say how happy I am about that. Not a custom I really cared for to start with.

The nice thing is most contagious diseases spread a lot less easily than covid. We have measures to greatly slow their spread without affecting how we live, or killing the economy. Point of fact, these measures easily pay for themselves. Sick people represent a lot of lost productivity.

Covid also helped us advance the state of vaccination technology. Who knows what else mRNA vaccines will be used for in the future? Now modern medicine has another tool in the tool box.


----------



## Monocrom (Apr 15, 2021)

Honestly, the flu numbers are likely to stay the same. Folks get the flu because it mutates and changes just enough year from year to keep causing infections. Causing folks to get flu shots every year. Even with Covid, there are now different strains of it. And, I suspect those strains were around much earlier than initially reported in the news. Maybe scientists knew about them back then, but didn't want to cause a mass panic. 

I did mention seeing examples of discharged patients coming back a week or two later, re-infected with Covid; in a different topic on CPF. Caught a lot of heat for saying that, from some members. They insisted there was absolutely no way that could medically take place. Sure, I guess I shouldn't believe my lying eyes during my day-shift job at the medical facility. Now it all makes sense though. Many of the ones who got infected were those who treated Covid like it was just a mildly stronger flu to begin with. Didn't take it seriously. Got infected, got better, thought they were now immune; went back to the same reckless behavior as before. A week later, they were back at the facility; "re-infected." In truth, infected with a different strain of Covid. Which we now know, different strains are existing at the same time.

Unlike the flu, which thankfully usually shows up in one form any given year. Making it easier to deal with. But the numbers aren't likely to be less.


----------



## markr6 (Apr 16, 2021)

jtr1962 said:


> Covid also helped us advance the state of vaccination technology. Who knows what else mRNA vaccines will be used for in the future? Now modern medicine has another tool in the tool box.



Very interesting technology. They're even talking about cancer vaccines. But if we do start putting an end to more and more diseases, we're going to need more "big bad Monsanto" companies to keep up. Add in more housing and development, less farming, more people, climate change, the existing world hunger...whew, that's a whole other topic.

Pfizer says a third shot will likely be necessary within 12 months. We'll have people getting that before others even get their first. Welcome Rona, you are going nowhere, unfortunately.


----------



## jtr1962 (Apr 16, 2021)

markr6 said:


> Very interesting technology. They're even talking about cancer vaccines. But if we do start putting an end to more and more diseases, we're going to need more "big bad Monsanto" companies to keep up. Add in more housing and development, less farming, more people, climate change, the existing world hunger...whew, that's a whole other topic.


That's interesting about the cancer vaccine. I had mentioned that somewhere in the thread but I didn't know they were already thinking about it.

Don't sweat it too much about an "end to all diseases" scenario. Even if we do that, unless we also find a way to slow aging, most people will die from their organs wearing out somewhere between the age of 100 and 110, instead of 70s to 90s now. That will increase the population slightly, but not by much. I actually hope they find a cure for aging while I'm still alive. Life is too short, plus we're in really interesting times. We'll worry about the problems that creates as we go along.



> Pfizer says a third shot will likely be necessary within 12 months. We'll have people getting that before others even get their first. Welcome Rona, you are going nowhere, unfortunately.


Hopefully though we'll at least get down to manageable numbers and stay there. A few hundred new cases weekly, and a handful of deaths per week, is manageable. Where we are now isn't.


----------



## markr6 (Apr 16, 2021)

jtr1962 said:


> Hopefully though we'll at least get down to manageable numbers and stay there. A few hundred new cases weekly, and a handful of deaths per week, is manageable. Where we are now isn't.



Right now is insane. Michigan has me stumped. India, unreal.


----------



## bykfixer (May 4, 2021)

Seasonal allergies have plagued millions this year. Oh I suppose it's like any year. Mine had been less bothersome this year until recently. All at once WHAM! Major headache, dizziness, the works. The usual medicine did help but then I pulled a triathelon of hours at work and "uh oh"……I'm sick. Fever of 99.4. Then yesterday 99.6. My regular doctor was booked up so I went to a dox in a box figuring on getting some pills and be on my way. Their scale said I had lost some weight, which I kinda figured since my trousers feel a little looser. Their thermometer said my temp was a little below normal. 

The doc walks in "what seems to be the problem?" so I begin to describe my symptoms. Headache, sneezing, dizzy, you know seasonal allergy stuff……but I've had a slight fever for 48 hours. "Any trouble breathing?" "Any cough?" "Been around anybody with covid?" no, no and no. She walks around me "lets see here" and listens to my lungs. "Any trouble breathing, any cough, been around anybody with covid?" uh, no. "we're going to give you a covid test"……but doc my ears are clogged, are you going to check my ears? 
This nice lady enters the room and jabs a cactus q-tip up my nose until it pushed out of my belly button……twice. Yikes! Some fifteen minutes goes by and another lady comes in and says "follow me to the xray machine". Huh? For clogged ears? She does a chest xray and says your covid test shows negative. Well duh. So here's comes this little Asian dude who says "we take blood"……again I'm thinking for clogged ears? He gets his sample and in comes the lady with the cactus qtip. We need to double check. So rinse and repeat. Ok so by now 2 hours have passed and nobody has checked my ears. 

The doc comes back "are you sure you don't have trouble breathing, have a cough or been around anybody with covid?" I looked at Mrs Fixer as she's got this look of amazement on her face and say "well, when I have 35 minutes of intercourse with her (pointing to my wife) yeah I get winded"……"are you going to check my ears?" Another 30 minutes passes and here comes cactus qtip lady again. "We need to get one more to send to the lab, sometimes the quick tests aren't acurate." I said "last one today lady, my eyes are still watering from the first one. Then the doc comes back. She says "xrays show you have pnuemonia, so take these pills and if you do actually have an ear infection it'll clear that up too." 

For some reason that woman has it in her head that I have covid 19 even though I live like a hermit, stay at least 6 feet from the few people I do see and wear a mask like you're supposed to. If it does turn out I have it I have no idea where it came from. 

Oh and at 2am this morning my fever broke and I feel normal again except for clogged ears.


----------



## markr6 (May 4, 2021)

Sounds like she really wanted to find that Rona!

Looking at the recent news, it seems like everyone is kind of giving up on the herd immunity thing. I knew we'd hit a wall of reluctant people at some point, but I figured that would be around 50%. Only at 32% right now. Weak.


----------



## bykfixer (May 4, 2021)

I'm not a scientist so it baffles my mind how a shot loaded with a liquid to fool the body into thinking it had covid provides more protection than the body's immune system that actually fought off the real virus. 

Point being, at least to this non scientist is that the numbers of those who had and and recovered should be combined with those who got the shot(s) to determine the real herd immunity numbers.


----------



## markr6 (May 4, 2021)

bykfixer said:


> I'm not a scientist so it baffles my mind how a shot loaded with a liquid to fool the body into thinking it had covid provides more protection than the body's immune system that actually fought off the real virus.
> 
> Point being, at least to this non scientist is that the numbers of those who had and and recovered should be combined with those who got the shot(s) to determine the real herd immunity numbers.




Yes that's true. So I wonder what the effective percentage is combining those? Just guessing 60%? If so we're getting somewhere.


----------



## bykfixer (May 4, 2021)

The world-o-meter says 25.9 million Americans had it and recovered.


----------



## xxo (May 4, 2021)

bykfixer said:


> I'm not a scientist so it baffles my mind how a shot loaded with a liquid to fool the body into thinking it had covid provides more protection than the body's immune system that actually fought off the real virus.
> 
> Point being, at least to this non scientist is that the numbers of those who had and and recovered should be combined with those who got the shot(s) to determine the real herd immunity numbers.




What herd immunity? Herd immunity is _so_ last week, just like 15 Days to Slow the Spread is so last year. Now they are saying herd immunity is not attainable -

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/05/03/health/covid-herd-immunity-vaccine.html


----------



## bykfixer (May 4, 2021)

So are you saying that in the 2030's those 2020 masks will be back in style like 1970's low rider jeans came back in the 1990's? 

I like the face shield. So storm trooper-esque. 







Note the Fauchi approved double mask with face shield………


----------



## turbodog (May 4, 2021)

bykfixer said:


> I'm not a scientist so it baffles my mind how a shot loaded with a liquid to fool the body into thinking it had covid provides more protection than the body's immune system that actually fought off the real virus.
> 
> Point being, at least to this non scientist is that the numbers of those who had and and recovered should be combined with those who got the shot(s) to determine the real herd immunity numbers.



If you combine those numbers you assume that c-19 recovered is as effective (or better) than vaccine protection. Generally speaking, that's NOT the case regarding vaccines. They almost always provide superior protection against a pathogen then having recovered/survived.


----------



## bykfixer (May 4, 2021)

Please explain how something you did not actually have but your body thinks you did is better than something your body did have and beat. I mean to me at least that's like saying powdered brocolli from a laboratory is better for you than real brocolli. 

My brother posed the question: if you get the shot then contact covid, then your body did not get sick so you never knew you had it does that person become a super spreader without even knowing it like Typhoid Mary did way back when?


----------



## orbital (May 4, 2021)

+

*You just have to read the mission statement.*

Pfizer will take in $28,000,000,000 this year for covid vaccine,, just Pfizer.


----------



## turbodog (May 4, 2021)

bykfixer said:


> Please explain how something you did not actually have but your body thinks you did is better than something your body did have and beat. I mean to me at least that's like saying powdered brocolli from a laboratory is better for you than real brocolli.
> 
> ...



Article below does a good job answering your question.

Excerpt: "For instance, the human papillomavirus (HPV) vaccine elicits a stronger immune response than infection by the virus itself. One reason for this is that the vaccine contains *high concentrations of a viral coat protein*, *more than what would occur in a natural infection*. This triggers strongly neutralising antibodies, making the vaccine very effective at preventing infection."


https://theconversation.com/why-a-vaccine-can-provide-better-immunity-than-an-actual-infection-145476


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## turbodog (May 4, 2021)

bykfixer said:


> Please explain how something you did not actually have but your body thinks you did is better than something your body did have and beat. I mean to me at least that's like saying powdered brocolli from a laboratory is better for you than real brocolli.
> 
> ...



And to answer your broccoli comment. If we could take the stuff about broccoli that makes it great, and make a new, condensed, supercharged broccoli... then yes, that would be better than farm-grown.


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## turbodog (May 4, 2021)

orbital said:


> +
> 
> *You just have to read the mission statement.*
> 
> Pfizer will take in $28,000,000,000 this year for covid vaccine,, just Pfizer.



That's _really_ not that much money for something of this scale.


----------



## nbp (May 4, 2021)

News said 56% of adults have gotten at least one shot, and I would think that if you got the first you’ll get the second, so you could say at minimum that percentage of adults will get vaxxed if no new people choose to. Those under 16 remain to be seen I guess as they become eligible. I have to assume being infected would impart at least some immunity and there could easily be 70-100 million of those foks.


----------



## bykfixer (May 4, 2021)

turbodog said:


> And to answer your broccoli comment. If we could take the stuff about broccoli that makes it great, and make a new, condensed, supercharged broccoli... then yes, that would be better than farm-grown.



Do you really believe that?


----------



## turbodog (May 4, 2021)

bykfixer said:


> Do you really believe that?



100%. Might not taste, feel, or look better. But as far as health benefits, yes, better.


----------



## orbital (May 4, 2021)

+

Washing down a multivitamin is not more healthy than a big salad with a piece of grilled chicken & some of my neighbors internationally acclaimed Parmesan https://www.sartoricheese.com/our-cheese/classic-cheese/parmesan.html

had to, I 'm hungry


----------



## turbodog (May 4, 2021)

nbp said:


> News said 56% of adults have gotten at least one shot, and I would think that if you got the first you’ll get the second, so you could say at minimum that percentage of adults will get vaxxed if no new people choose to. Those under 16 remain to be seen I guess as they become eligible. I have to assume being infected would impart at least some immunity and there could easily be 70-100 million of those foks.



Rumor is that 12-16 opens up next week.


----------



## turbodog (May 4, 2021)

He threw out a poor anecdote and I poked some easy holes it in. We can quibble about vitamin absorption another time.

Fact still stands that overall, with the occasional exception, vaccines provide superior protection. 

Mumps vaccine is one of those exceptions... but I'd rather take my chance with a 98% mumps vaccine than a 100% protection from actually catching it.


----------



## cave dave (May 4, 2021)

orbital said:


> +
> 
> *You just have to read the mission statement.*
> 
> Pfizer will take in $28,000,000,000 this year for covid vaccine,, just Pfizer.



Curious about this I looked up a source. 
Sourced from NYT: 
"The vaccine brought in $3.5 billion in revenue in the first three months of this year, nearly a quarter of its total revenue, Pfizer reported. The vaccine was, far and away, Pfizer’s biggest source of revenue.
The company did not disclose the profits it derived from the vaccine, but it reiterated its previous prediction that its profit margins on the vaccine would be in the high 20 percent range. That would translate into roughly $900 million in pretax vaccine profits in the first quarter.
... Johnson & Johnson and AstraZeneca both vowed to sell their vaccines on a nonprofit basis during the pandemic. Moderna, which has never made a profit and has no other products on the market, decided to sell its vaccine at a profit.
... Pfizer said on Tuesday that it expects its vaccine to generate $26 billion in revenue this year, up from its previous estimate of $15 billion...."

The rest of the article is worth reading
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/05/04/business/pfizer-covid-vaccine-profits.html


----------



## orbital (May 4, 2021)

+


It was from today, what they were telling investors or potential investors,
which I am not one of.


----------



## turbodog (May 4, 2021)

cave dave said:


> ... did not disclose the profits it derived from the vaccine, but it reiterated its previous prediction that its profit margins on the vaccine would be in the high 20 percent range...



A quick skimming of the *2020 10K form* tells me their profits run approx 55%, so 20% is low. Their stock is not attractive either, still not having regained its dot com peak 20+ years ago.


----------



## bigburly912 (May 4, 2021)

Their profits from what run 55%? You’d be hard pressed to find any company on earth with an operating profit at 55%. Theirs is around 2%


----------



## turbodog (May 4, 2021)

Their 2020 10K showed income of ~40B with profits of ~14B. Approx 55%.

Microsoft runs similar numbers.

2% doesn't sound reasonable for ANY business that's going to remain in business.

If I read correctly, my numbers were net profit. Here's their gross profit:

Fiscal Year	Gross Profit	Revenue	Margin
2016-12-31	40.906 B	52.824 B	77.4%
2017-12-31	41.72 B	52.546 B	79.4%
2018-12-31	31.953 B	40.825 B	78.3%
2019-12-31	33.129 B	41.172 B	80.5%
2020-12-31	33.334 B	41.908 B	79.5%


----------



## bykfixer (May 5, 2021)

turbodog said:


> He threw out a poor anecdote and I poked some easy holes it in. We can quibble about vitamin absorption another time.
> 
> Fact still stands that overall, with the occasional exception, vaccines provide superior protection.
> 
> Mumps vaccine is one of those exceptions... but I'd rather take my chance with a 98% mumps vaccine than a 100% protection from actually catching it.



Actually you put a nice sharp tip on the point I was making. Thank you.


----------



## markr6 (May 5, 2021)

Target is giving $5 gift cards. Not sure that's enough incentive for the fence-sitters. But just look at it as 5 free boxes of Good & Plenty. That's a nice juicy carrot.


----------



## idleprocess (May 5, 2021)

bykfixer said:


> Actually you put a nice sharp tip on the point I was making. Thank you.



How the gut handles vitamins formulated at a low cost to be able to claim some nonsense like 700% RDA for vitamin C _(primary tell: you **** *florescent*)_ vs an engineered immune response in the bloodstream are entirely different things.


----------



## bigburly912 (May 5, 2021)

turbodog said:


> Their 2020 10K showed income of ~40B with profits of ~14B. Approx 55%.
> 
> Microsoft runs similar numbers.
> 
> ...



I think you are looking at your numbers wrong. 2% profits on 40b is a lot of money. And 14/40 is 35% anyway.


----------



## bigburly912 (May 5, 2021)

bigburly912 said:


> I think you are looking at your numbers wrong. 2% profits on 40b is a lot of money. And 14/40 is 35% anyway.



I think we may be talking about two different things so I’ll just say GO world beat them Coronas!!


----------



## turbodog (May 5, 2021)

bigburly912 said:


> I think you are looking at your numbers wrong. 2% profits on 40b is a lot of money. And 14/40 is 35% anyway.



I'm used to doing it as a function of costs, so 14/26 or ~55%.


----------



## turbodog (May 5, 2021)

On the encouraging side... looks like FDA approval for 12-16 is coming VERY soon. So get those kids (walking vectors) an appt.


----------



## PhotonWrangler (May 5, 2021)

turbodog said:


> On the encouraging side... looks like FDA approval for 12-16 is coming VERY soon. So get those kids (walking vectors) an appt.


Yes, Canada just approved it for 12-15 year olds. I can't imagine the US will be far behind. Pfizer claims 100% effectiveness for this age group using the same dosage given to adults. Reported side effects have been sore arms and fever.


----------



## bykfixer (May 13, 2021)

The other day I had a radio program on in my vehicle when a contractor walked up to ask a question. He heard a guy on the news flash saying "we could return to normal soon". He chuckled and said "return to normal? Heck I never left there".

Then a car wizzed past driven by a guy wearing a mask. Dude remarked "he probably won't be back"…… he said "I like it here in normal now that all those crazy people have left". I understood what he meant. Life moves on. You adapt, enjoy what you can and keep going until the day your number is drawn for the big lottery in the sky.


----------



## idleprocess (May 13, 2021)

CDC Guidelines have been updated. The TL;DR looks to be _if you're vaccinated you very nearly can live like it's The Before Times again_.


----------



## wacbzz (May 13, 2021)

I hate to ask the obvious, but how do I know that the guy standing across from me wearing no mask has _actually_ been fully vaccinated, and just isn’t one of those anti-maskers/anti -vaxxers anyway, and now has an “excuse?”

I’m editing this post to point out the very real current case of the 8 New York Yankee team members that have come down with COVID _*after* the whole team had been fully vaccinated with the J&J vaccine. _The CDC wants, no, expects me to trust that guy across from me with no mask? Are they just nuts?


----------



## idleprocess (May 13, 2021)

wacbzz said:


> I hate to ask the obvious, but how do I know that the guy standing across from me wearing no mask has _actually_ been fully vaccinated,


Short of inspecting a vaccine card _(easily forged)_ *you don't*. But if you're vaccinated you also largely don't have to care.



wacbzz said:


> and just isn’t one of those anti-maskers/anti -vaxxers anyway, and now has an “excuse?”


VICE had an amusing story on the subject two days ago...


----------



## Chauncey Gardiner (May 13, 2021)

wacbzz said:


> I hate to ask the obvious, but how do I know that the guy standing across from me *wearing no mask* has _actually_ been fully vaccinated, and just isn’t one of those anti-maskers/anti -vaxxers anyway, and now has an “excuse?”
> 
> I’m editing this post to point out the very real current case of the 8 New York Yankee team members that have come down with COVID _*after* the whole team had been fully vaccinated with the J&J vaccine. _The CDC wants, no, expects me to trust that guy across from me with no mask? Are they just nuts?



What's a no mask, and how does one go about wearing one? :laughing:


----------



## turbodog (May 13, 2021)

wacbzz said:


> I hate to ask the obvious, but how do I know that the guy standing across from me wearing no mask has _actually_ been fully vaccinated, and just isn’t one of those anti-maskers/anti -vaxxers anyway, and now has an “excuse?”
> 
> I’m editing this post to point out the very real current case of the 8 New York Yankee team members that have come down with COVID _*after* the whole team had been fully vaccinated with the J&J vaccine. _The CDC wants, no, expects me to trust that guy across from me with no mask? Are they just nuts?



My 'give a crap' meter has been bottomed out for a long time now... so I simply ask people, masked or not, near me if they have a vaccine yet. Then I sort of go from there. After losing 4 family members to this... I just don't care anymore.

On a good note, MS opens up 12+ vaccines tomorrow.


----------



## Lynx_Arc (May 13, 2021)

You folks do know that vaccinated people can be infected and infect others even those who are vaccinated.


----------



## turbodog (May 14, 2021)

Lynx_Arc said:


> You folks do know that vaccinated people can be infected and infect others even those who are vaccinated.



Current CDC breakthrough data says there's about a 1:10,000 chance. Better odds than any other option. And it's a moot point regardless. Get your shot(s). Encourage everyone you know to do the same.

https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/covid-19/health-departments/breakthrough-cases.html


----------



## nbp (May 14, 2021)

So 1% of .01% of vaccinated people died of COVID. I like those odds.


----------



## markr6 (May 14, 2021)

I got vaccinated about 2 months ago. I don't really care about the other guy lying about being vaccinated without a mask. If I was really worried I would keep wearing mine. If I was REALLY worried I would retire back to my sealed up home.

If we have to get tattoos proving vaccination, at least let me choose the color and design. Plain old numbers are boring.

I bet there are people that just won't let this go, though. The CDC, not exactly the bastion of careless decisions, announces this yesterday. I believe some people are so miserably negative and enjoy being under the thumb that they will argue against this. Keep "masking up" or else you're killing grandma. The excuses are out there, wait for them to come full force.


----------



## Lynx_Arc (May 14, 2021)

nbp said:


> So 1% of .01% of vaccinated people died of COVID. I like those odds.


So far..... you also have to add that figures for the 1% are cumulative adding in those who died early on and now with greatly improved medicine and treatment likely the chance of death for all but those who really need the vaccine is in the range of 0.2% and the chance of death because of reaction to the vaccine isn't added into the mix but likely insignificant.


----------



## Lynx_Arc (May 14, 2021)

markr6 said:


> I got vaccinated about 2 months ago. I don't really care about the other guy lying about being vaccinated without a mask. If I was really worried I would keep wearing mine. If I was REALLY worried I would retire back to my sealed up home.
> 
> If we have to get tattoos proving vaccination, at least let me choose the color and design. Plain old numbers are boring.
> 
> I bet there are people that just won't let this go, though. The CDC, not exactly the bastion of careless decisions, announces this yesterday. I believe some people are so miserably negative and enjoy being under the thumb that they will argue against this. Keep "masking up" or else you're killing grandma. The excuses are out there, wait for them to come full force.


I don't think they will get by with tattoos, and the imaginary number of grandmas that would die by not masking with many people vaccinated may go below the imaginary number where people don't get all bent out of shape over.


----------



## nbp (May 14, 2021)

Lynx_Arc said:


> So far..... you also have to add that figures for the 1% are cumulative adding in those who died early on and now with greatly improved medicine and treatment likely the chance of death for all but those who really need the vaccine is in the range of 0.2% and the chance of death because of reaction to the vaccine isn't added into the mix but likely insignificant.



No. There was no vaccine early on so that is obviously not what I am talking about. Look at the page cited. Of 95 million vaccinated, there were about 9500 breakthrough cases. Of those, about 132 died. That’s where my numbers came from.


----------



## Hooked on Fenix (May 14, 2021)

They have finally said that we can go without masks after having the vaccine at some point in time (June 15 where I live). With all of my health problems including difficulty breathing while wearing a mask, I'm now going to get the vaccine soon. Hopefully, I'll be able to go to my doctor appointments maskless so I can breathe. They won't let me wear a face shield instead despite my breathing difficulties. I just hope they don't pull the rug out from under us after everyone gets vaccinated and say we still have to wear a mask anyways. People are bound to revolt then.


----------



## markr6 (May 14, 2021)

And there it is. Home Depot, Starbucks, Kroger, to name a few are holding the requirement. Not a big deal, but it's a great time to virtue signal to the max and not go along with the city, county, state, and now CDC. But in the end I guess it's their property; _no shoes, no shirt, no mask, no service._


----------



## Lynx_Arc (May 14, 2021)

markr6 said:


> And there it is. Home Depot, Starbucks, Kroger, to name a few are holding the requirement. Not a big deal, but it's a great time to virtue signal to the max and not go along with the city, county, state, and now CDC. But in the end I guess it's their property; _no shoes, no shirt, no mask, no service._


I've been in Home Depot here without a mask, and Walmart too, before and after they changed their signs. Before they had signs that said local authorities mandated masks but it was 2 weeks before they finally took them down and replaced them with signs that they demand them but they didn't say a thing when I went there without a mask and there was a few others at that time without them there. 
I agree it is virtue signaling at this time when here in the city/state our infection rates were dropping before vaccines started already.


----------



## Chauncey Gardiner (May 14, 2021)

Wearing a mask, I no longer "shop" anywhere. I go in. Get what I want, and get on out the door ASAP. My mask is in my pocket within seconds of leaving the establishment. I just returned form a Home Depot. They have Mask Mandatory signs in place. Get in. Get out. Save money.


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## markr6 (May 14, 2021)

Chauncey Gardiner said:


> Get in. Get out. Save money.



LOL, so true!


----------



## Chauncey Gardiner (May 14, 2021)

markr6 said:


> LOL, so true!



Straight up! When our sons were young .... back when they still wanted to spend time with dad, we'd walk every isle in Home Depot, and I'd let um touch anything they wanted. Those were some expensive outings. It's amazing the things you never knew you needed.


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## badtziscool (May 14, 2021)

Chauncey Gardiner said:


> Get in. Get out. Save money.



And buy flashlights!


----------



## badtziscool (May 14, 2021)

markr6 said:


> But in the end I guess it's their property; _no shoes, no shirt, no mask, no service._



Very true but they have to run a business as well and they will eventually go which ever way their customer base wants them to go. If Lowe’s decides to say the heck with masks and everyone goes there instead of HD, you can be sure HD will rescind their mask requirement. And likewise for any other establishment with competition.


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## turbodog (May 14, 2021)

badtziscool said:


> Very true but they have to run a business as well and they will eventually go which ever way their customer base wants them to go. If Lowe’s decides to say the heck with masks and everyone goes there instead of HD, you can be sure HD will rescind their mask requirement. And likewise for any other establishment with competition.



I figure legal dept & insurance carrier w/ have a significant say in these decisions.

Also, with pfizer/moderna applying for full approval... how long till employers require the vaccine...


----------



## badtziscool (May 14, 2021)

turbodog said:


> I figure legal dept & insurance carrier w/ have a significant say in these decisions.
> 
> Also, with pfizer/moderna applying for full approval... how long till employers require the vaccine...



Oh no doubt. I think the “return to normal” is going to be just as turbulent as it was when we went into “pandemic life”. It’ll be interesting for sure.


----------



## Poppy (May 15, 2021)

I imagine that in a couple of weeks, masks will be a thing of the past for most people, and pretty much all establishments.

Yesterday, we went into a supermarket, Publix, and the sign was down, but we, and most people still wore masks. Some wore chin straps, and others mask hats, but for the most part they were worn properly.

Last night I did a pick up at a pizza place. Their sign was also down. The place was more full than I had seen before, and of course no one seated was masked. The waiting staff still was, as was the three of us waiting in line for pick ups.

That'll change.


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## bykfixer (May 15, 2021)

The other day on the radio a guy said less than 700 had perished from covid in the US and that was the best day since last March (as in 2020). Down an average of 22% in the last seven days. 
Meanwhile it rages on in other countries. 







Sadly India seems to be like California was to New York a while ago, racing for the top spot in cases and deaths. 2 million new cases A WEEK!! Jiminey Cricket that's a lot.

Is it time to stop standing 6' apart, wearing a mask when unable and washing your hands often? 
Eh, I don't think so. If I'm in a gas station in line, a Home Depot or that sort of thing I'll still stand 6 feet away. Last evening the Mrs and I were in a store where nearly everybody had a face cover on. Shoot, right now where I live the pollen is so bad I wear one anyway.


----------



## Katherine Alicia (May 15, 2021)

yeah, it`s really sad for India  they`re like 10x the infection rate you guys have and yet their counrty is tiny compared to yours (in land mass terms), and what makes it worse is that they`re the least well equiped to deal with it too.

On a Brighter note, We`re all booked for a meal on the 14`th June this year for my daughters birthday, and it`ll be a week after my second shot (so not too bad), it`ll be so nice just to drink a coffee and eat a meal that someone else has made for a change!


----------



## turbodog (May 15, 2021)

bykfixer said:


> ...
> Meanwhile it rages on in other countries.
> 
> 
> ...



I had followed the stats _very_ closely since day 1. India had done quite well much to my surprise. I had though that due to their population density... it would be really bad there. Then I learned that their population is all pretty young... so they were going to dodge the bullet due to that. Well so much for that...

Time and time again covid has shown that the places that are doing well... have simply not gotten bad _yet_.

It also shown that places in decline will ramp back up at a moment's notice.

Edit: and if India is having 2M/week... that's still less than our new infections on a percentage basis. About 25% of our rate actually... so it could get a LOT worse for them.


----------



## PhotonWrangler (May 15, 2021)

Signage requiring masks in retail areas are still up in the stores that I've seen and I think that's appropriate. I'm concerned that the CDC's statement the other day is going to cause some un-vaccinated people to throw caution to the wind. Let's get it right this time.


----------



## SCEMan (May 15, 2021)

PhotonWrangler said:


> Signage requiring masks in retail areas are still up in the stores that I've seen and I think that's appropriate. I'm concerned that the CDC's statement the other day is going to cause some un-vaccinated people to throw caution to the wind. Let's get it right this time.



Since IMHO a large percentage of the unvaccinated will lie and go maskless. I'll bet most wearing masks (myself included) will be vaccinated.


----------



## Poppy (May 16, 2021)

Yesterday, I went to the supermarket to pick up a few things for dinner. There was no sign, so although I had a mask in my pocket, I didn't put it on. I am vaccinated. Some were wearing masks, some not. Most, if not all of the employees were wearing masks. 

I felt guilty, not wearing a mask, when I had to approach a masked clerk, to ask... where the Gnocchi is in the store.


----------



## Chauncey Gardiner (May 16, 2021)

Poppy said:


> Yesterday, I went to the supermarket to pick up a few things for dinner. There was no sign, so although I had a mask in my pocket, I didn't put it on. I am vaccinated. Some were wearing masks, some not. Most, if not all of the employees were wearing masks.
> 
> I felt guilty, not wearing a mask, when I had to approach a masked clerk, to ask... where the Gnocchi is in the store.



You shouldn't feel guilty for not knowing where the Gnocchi was located, supermarkets are big places.


----------



## bykfixer (May 16, 2021)

The "mask required" sign was gone at my local grocery store, but (I'm supposing) out of habit 99 of 100 folks had a face cover. All employees did and I'm supposing that won't change soon. The governor of my state lifted the mandate somewhat. Places like Home Depot won't be required to ensure patrons wear them but employees will still have to. Kids in schools will still be required. Stuff like that. But I suspect the majority of places I go will still largely be filled with face covered patrons until at least Fall when by then that "magic number" of herd immunity will be reached according to the parrot chorus of alphabet soup news media outlets.


----------



## turbodog (May 16, 2021)

bykfixer said:


> The "mask required" sign was gone at my local grocery store, but (I'm supposing) out of habit 99 of 100 folks had a face cover. ...



That's a frustrating part of all this. Mask usage seems to be at its highest since this all started, and I'm asking myself where all this responsible/adult behavior was when people were dying by the truckload (and hospitals were bursting at the seams) around Thanksgiving/Christmas.


----------



## xxo (May 16, 2021)

bykfixer said:


> The "mask required" sign was gone at my local grocery store, but (I'm supposing) out of habit 99 of 100 folks had a face cover. All employees did and I'm supposing that won't change soon. The governor of my state lifted the mandate somewhat. Places like Home Depot won't be required to ensure patrons wear them but employees will still have to. Kids in schools will still be required. Stuff like that. But I suspect the majority of places I go will still largely be filled with face covered patrons until at least Fall when by then that "magic number" of herd immunity will be reached according to the parrot chorus of alphabet soup news media outlets.



Herd immunity like the NY yankees -

https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id...sitive-covid-19-bringing-team-total-nine-week


----------



## turbodog (May 16, 2021)

xxo said:


> Herd immunity like the NY yankees -
> 
> https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id...sitive-covid-19-bringing-team-total-nine-week



I wonder how far past shot #2 they all were. IIRC, you need 2-3 weeks after #2.


----------



## xxo (May 16, 2021)

turbodog said:


> I wonder how far past shot #2 they all were. IIRC, you need 2-3 weeks after #2.



They all got J&J shots a month ago.

Though the shots may reduce morbidity for people how get covid by 90%, at best they prevent 50-60% of fully vaccinated people from getting covid - that's why you will won't get "herd immunity" even if everyone in the world was vaccinated. If enough people get the virus and recover, we might get herd immunity, but there is some question of that due to mutations and the possibility that some people don't seem to develop strong immunity after they have had the virus.


----------



## nbp (Aug 4, 2021)

A more suitable place for vaccine efforts discussion.


----------



## PoliceScannerMan (Aug 4, 2021)

Just getting over the delta variant, had "regular" covid last year. Personally speaking first hand, delta was easily 3x as worse as it was the first go around. Luckily both of my cases are considered mild, even though I was sick as hell. I didnt go to the doctor or anything like that.


----------



## Brettjack (Aug 4, 2021)

bykfixer said:


> In my home state there's a light at the end of the tunnel and it aint a train. Yippee!!
> 
> Now the total number of cases will never be less as it is a running total like time. There will be a day when the number is frozen though. Phew! That'll be cool.
> 
> ...


Bykfixer, new member "brettjack" new as in 1 hour. Subscribed for other info, but saw your lead thread and have an elephant in the room question. What (if anything) should the goal be with those who do not want this particular vaccine? Upfront as a recipient I still say by "rights" that choice is their choice. Told you this is an elephant in the room, cause "it" will happen. The proverbial unstoppable force (pandemic/logic) to immovable object (constitution) what say you? Or anybody's opinion or better IDEA's on what to do? Thnx!


----------



## Brettjack (Aug 4, 2021)

nbp said:


> A more suitable place for vaccine efforts discussion.


Completely brand new, sorry! No need to post, came for complete other reason, looking for advice on Portable! solar panels. Also know how to reply to another's post but do not know how to post general question to group. 61 yrs old and forum illiterate. Thnx for any help 
Brett


----------



## nbp (Aug 4, 2021)

Brettjack said:


> Completely brand new, sorry! No need to post, came for complete other reason, looking for advice on Portable! solar panels. Also know how to reply to another's post but do not know how to post general question to group. 61 yrs old and forum illiterate. Thnx for any help
> Brett



Hi Brett, welcome to CPF. You can feel free to start threads in suitable subforums by navigating to the subforum and then clicking the Post Thread button or you can use the box at the top of the thread list to create a new thread. I hve circled them in red for you in this screenshot.


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## bykfixer (Aug 4, 2021)

Brettjack said:


> Bykfixer, new member "brettjack" new as in 1 hour. Subscribed for other info, but saw your lead thread and have an elephant in the room question. What (if anything) should the goal be with those who do not want this particular vaccine? Upfront as a recipient I still say by "rights" that choice is their choice. Told you this is an elephant in the room, cause "it" will happen. The proverbial unstoppable force (pandemic/logic) to immovable object (constitution) what say you? Or anybody's opinion or better IDEA's on what to do? Thnx!


Brett, I wonder if you remember in 1976 the US government tried to convince the population to take a flu shot……that debacle still lingers with many. There are some who see some numbers and cower in fear. Others say "pfft, if the water and food don't kill now that new head cold will" and just carry on. Some are in between. 

Now it seems as though the louder so-called conventional wisdom hollers "get the shot dammit" the more dug in some will become about not taking it. 

One thing most aren't discussing is that around 40% of the nay sayers say they will gladly get the shot once it's FDA approved. And it has been said that the FDA could approve 2 of the big 3 by the end of this month (August 2021). 

I'm on the fence about the matter. The rebel in me says screw you king Fauchi, you aint going to tell me where the bear poops. The old guy in me says the trouble with being dead is it lasts so long. 

To me if this one had a 14-15% death rate overall with 50% for those over 64 like the 03 SARS did I seriously doubt this conversation would be taking place. If so it would be in between folks in line getting the SARS shot. ……

Welcome aboard.


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## xxo (Aug 4, 2021)

Dr Malone, the virologist that invented the mRNA vaccine technology thoughts on the spread of the virus, vaccines, treatments and Authoritarian Messaging:



full interview:


----------



## orbital (Aug 4, 2021)

+

There is _Regular r_ecipe & _Extra CRISPR_


----------



## idleprocess (Aug 4, 2021)

> “Politics is the art of the possible, the attainable — the art of the next best”
> ― Otto von Bismarck


For me, the last 18 months convinced me that there's a _stubbornness_ in large swaths of the American public. No matter how overwhelming the evidence, how convincing the rhetoric, how emotional the appeal, how persuasive the incentives, how unpleasant the disincentives there is going to be a slice that responds with *I ain't gonna*.

With the leading quote in mind, I'm not sure that there's enough _constituency_ to push a vaccine mandate. Employers might require them. Some establishments might have the pull to demand their patrons be vaccinated. But attempting to channel the unvaccinated into a situation that walks and quacks like a vaccine mandate without actually _legally_ being one seems like it's just going to harden resistance all around.

And truly, I mean it when I say _*all around*_. The populace will resist. Local government - surely possessing a better sense of the pulse of locals than anyone else - will resist. And state government will resist. The facts be d_mned - the Overton Window is where it is.

It's unfortunate that an otherwise simple public health issue has been caught up in our highly polarized social/political environment but it has and there's no unringing that bell.

If it happens before flu season, I suspect that the FDA fully approving vaccines _without being hurried_ will be the next thing that moves the needle in regards to improving vaccine uptake. Otherwise it seems like the die has been cast and we're going to move into flu season in a posture similar to where we're at now.


----------



## bykfixer (Aug 4, 2021)

Politics: 
Poly meaning many
Ticks meaning blood sucking parasites
- my 3rd grade teacher

Wash your hands, stay 6' apart and wear a face cover when congregating near people.


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## turbodog (Aug 4, 2021)

Brettjack said:


> ... The proverbial unstoppable force (pandemic/logic) to immovable object (constitution) ...



From what I understand, the founders were proponents of common healthcare goals & mandates.


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## turbodog (Aug 4, 2021)

xxo said:


> Dr Malone, the virologist that invented the mRNA vaccine technology
> ...



That assertion doesn't jive with the facts. We have a woman researcher to thank for carrying the torch for mrna for decades.


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## Splitrail (Aug 4, 2021)

lemmings will be lemmings.
sheep will be sheep.
the cliff is THAT way.
The sheep dip is down the chute on the left!
As they say in Wuhan........................"Rotsa ruck!"


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## turbodog (Aug 4, 2021)

I'm going for a booster shot early next week. Would suggest everyone consider it.

The numbers, which were reported to be in decline (sort of... the rate of increase was dropping, the numbers themselves were still going up like a rocket) are not in decline. Rate of increase has begun to increase... which means *bad *things.

Reminder that masks/countermeasures are dropping, infections are skyrocketing, school restarts SOON, and flu will probably be a factor this year.

*Don't get sick (from anything) and need hospitalization. It's not gonna be there.*


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## turbodog (Aug 4, 2021)

bykfixer said:


> ... There are some who see some numbers and cower in fear. Others say "pfft, if the water and food don't kill now that new head cold will" and just carry on. Some are in between.
> 
> ...
> 
> ...



I hate to be right... but the lack of healthcare is starting to hit. Got off the phone couple of hours ago with an older friend (mid 50's). He's got chest pain and needs a trip to the cath lab for a stent. Can't get in... no room.


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## xxo (Aug 4, 2021)

Apparently Dr Malone was first to publish back in the late '80's and he has several patents which is part of technology on which the mRNA vaccines are based.


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## nbp (Aug 4, 2021)

Splitrail said:


> lemmings will be lemmings.
> sheep will be sheep.
> the cliff is THAT way.
> The sheep dip is down the chute on the left!
> As they say in Wuhan........................"Rotsa ruck!"


I see your join date is recent so maybe you don’t know how things work here, but we’re not going to tolerate insults or jokes about other countries or cultures. Similar posts will be deleted without comment. Thank you.


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## turbodog (Aug 4, 2021)

xxo said:


> Apparently Dr Malone was first to publish back in the late '80's and he has several patents which is part of technology on which the mRNA vaccines are based.



My take is that whatever paper(s) he published decades ago... were, at most, a firmed up idea of what might be possible.

The Hungarian lady spent ~30+ years working on mrna, actually figuring out how to make it evade our immune system, enter the cells successfully, and be effective. Then she directly worked on the current vaccine we have now.

Given his lack of work & progress combined with known vaccine skepticism and, finally, an admission he did NOT invent mrna vaccines... I would have to say he wrote an interesting paper, at most.

https://www.logically.ai/factchecks/library/3aa2eefd


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## raggie33 (Aug 4, 2021)

im fully vacanated but i am still wearing my mask. i hate wearing mask but being sick is worse


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## turbodog (Aug 5, 2021)

raggie33 said:


> im fully vacanated but i am still wearing my mask. i hate wearing mask but being sick is worse



Well be careful dude. Cause it ain't over yet. I wish it were.


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## JimIslander (Aug 5, 2021)

PoliceScannerMan said:


> Just getting over the delta variant, had "regular" covid last year. Personally speaking first hand, delta was easily 3x as worse as it was the first go around. Luckily both of my cases are considered mild, even though I was sick as hell. I didnt go to the doctor or anything like that.



When they test, how do they know if it is the Delta variant?


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## PoliceScannerMan (Aug 5, 2021)

I am assuming it is the Delta, spreading like wildfire here in FL. Way sicker than last time, first go around was barely sick. Felt about like the flu. I am healthy and younger though. Covid seems to be rough on older or overweight people.


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## turbodog (Aug 5, 2021)

PoliceScannerMan said:


> I am assuming it is the Delta, spreading like wildfire here in FL. Way sicker than last time, first go around was barely sick. Felt about like the flu. I am healthy and younger though. Covid seems to be rough on older or overweight people.



I missed it... did you have full course of shots? Did they confirm covid both times?

Reason I ask about confirmation. I asked my cousin (MD) about the "I'm sure I already had covid" comment I used to hear so much. He commented that every couple of years we get a ILI (influenza like illness) that goes around, yet tests negative on flu test.

In any case, sorry you went through it and glad you made it.


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## PoliceScannerMan (Aug 5, 2021)

Yes confirmed both times. Thank you.


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## KITROBASKIN (Aug 5, 2021)

State of New Mexico, USA posted today. Trend is going up yes, but medical facilities currently overwhelmed because of COVID?


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## idleprocess (Aug 5, 2021)

KITROBASKIN said:


> Trend is going up yes, but medical facilities currently overwhelmed because of COVID?



Denton County, TX 2021 hospital bed usage, COVID-19 vs other:





Slightly exceeded 25% during the winter peak, dropped to somewhat negligible levels by April, creeping up again, nearing ~12.5%.

Not a good trend, for sure, but nothing approaching inundation at the moment.


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## Alaric Darconville (Aug 5, 2021)

xxo said:


> Though the shots may reduce morbidity for people how get covid by 90%


That word (morbidity) doesn't mean what you think it means.


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## turbodog (Aug 5, 2021)

KITROBASKIN said:


> State of New Mexico, USA posted today. Trend is going up yes, but medical facilities currently overwhelmed because of COVID?
> 
> View attachment 14409



We are covered up here in MS. This morning, only 6 ICU beds available in the entire state.

State health officer mentioned that beds/ICU are already pretty full as people were proceeding with deferred stuff now that covid had died down. Well so much for that plan guys!

Any procedure that has a projected overnight hospitalization has been cancelled statewide... and this was last week. The hospitals are practically pushing people out the door to free up beds.


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## Poppy (Aug 7, 2021)

In yesterday's news, a Houston Texas hospital had to airlift a 11 month old baby to another hospital 150 miles away because there was no room left in the pediatric ICU.

In another news segment, today, there were dire warnings, that the virus is now so rampant in half a dozen states, including Texas, Arkansas, Alabama, and Florida, that no mitigation attempts will slow it enough to prevent hospital failure. The states need to start ramping up overflow sites, and that they'll need federal help.

FEMA took weeks to set them up in New York, and New Jersey during the initial surge. Now that they have done it once, I imagine that they should be able to do it more quickly, yet I haven't seen any news reports that they are getting ready to set them up.

The good news for the NE is that the vaccination percentage is high enough that remediation efforts such as distancing, and mask wearing (where appropriate) may still be effective enough to keep the hospitals from being overwhelmed.

It appears to me that more vaccine resistant people are getting vaccinated. The country is up to just shy of a million shots a day.


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## turbodog (Aug 7, 2021)

Poppy said:


> ...
> 
> In another news segment, today, there were dire warnings, that the virus is now so rampant in half a dozen states, including Texas, Arkansas, Alabama, and Florida, that no mitigation attempts will slow it enough to prevent hospital failure. The states need to start ramping up overflow sites, and that they'll need federal help.
> 
> ...



That's the reality. We are headed for disaster and it's impossible to avert it. The biggest & best hospital in the state... has 14 ICU beds available but nobody to staff them.

Just realized my sister (un-vaccinated along with her nurse-practitioner husband) has missed the window of opportunity to get the shot. Their kid will hit school next week, promptly get infected, and bring it home.


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## MannyScoot (Aug 7, 2021)

Take a trip to the hospital and it will be empty. I did it here in Arizona, filled and no beds and they were empty..... My Buddy works in a morgue in Phoenix and he told me he has not seen an increase in deaths in the last (18) months.......like advertised......


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## bykfixer (Aug 7, 2021)

When my pop konked his head pretty good one day he was placed in ICU while the proffesionals took care of a brain bleed. He was taking blood thinner medication so a small wound was like a big one. He was on a 150ml (iirc) liquid intake restriction due to heart issues. They had to pump in like 500ml or something of plasma to "water down" the blood he had in him with the thinner med. (The numbers and type of quantity may be incorrect but basically he had to keep up with fluid oz he took in and eliminated each day.) Basically that nearly drowned the poor man but that's why he was in ICU. He came through it fine.

Now, this particular medical facility is in the capital city of my state. It had 14 ICU beds. That's it. Similar to all of the others in the capital city and surrounding counties. At one point while he was there they were all full. That was around 2005 or so when there was no pandemic. It was summer so no flu outbreak issue was in play either. What I'm saying is nearly all medical facilities have very few ICU beds. And year round people in the US occupy most of the capacity. So when the manakin looking guy on tv with the gleem in his eye says "ICU beds are filled to capacity as the pandemic rages on" it's true, but they were already near full anyway. Car crashes, drug over doses, cancer, heart attacks etc.

ICU facilities are extremely expensive and hospitals don't just have a bunch of extra beds laying around. Yet the story right now seems to be that suddenly all 300 previously empty beds at facility X are loaded with covid-19 patients with 673 more people outside in the lobby laying there dieing. So much drama is going around as the D word gets all bantied about. And now this Fauchi character is back on tour stating "you aint seen nothing yet"……again.

Suddenly the light at the end of the tunnel is blowing it's horn saying "the end is near, go back to your basements, but first buy toilet paper"……
Here we go again.

For a year old people and unhealthy people were the big target with outliers here and there. This new Delta thing so far seems to now be affecting pre-teens unlike the previous variants. It's sorta the inverse affects of the Spanish 100 years ago where kids and young people got it first and at stage 3 the seasoned citizens fell from it. Part of that was the war going on. Many people did not know it but back then the US President had the Spanish flu during some of the peace talks. 
I wonder how many perished from that one but were labeled as a KIA victim of the war to end all wars. Perhaps we'll never know.


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## PhotonWrangler (Aug 7, 2021)

I heard an immunologist on the radio yesterday who said that this is largely a pandemic of the unvaccinated. While vaccinated people can get it, those breakthrough infections are usually mild in the same way that traditional viral infections can be. This offers a glimpse of what "normal" can look like again, assuming we don't see a large spread of a variant that can completely escape the current vaccine. 

The regular seasonal flu has new variants every year and the flu vaccines have traditionally been a little less effective than the Covid shots. That's not a fault of the vaccine but an indicator of how quickly the regular flu changes. I know that someone somewhere is working on a universal flu shot; assuming this is possible, maybe there will be a similar shot for Covid someday.


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## turbodog (Aug 7, 2021)

bykfixer said:


> ... And now this Fauchi character is back on tour stating "you aint seen nothing yet"……again.



The exact thing happened that one would expect, a mutation happened. This will continue until herd immunity, or we will be this way forever until the virus mutates into a less-lethal, less-healthcare-overwhelming version.

Pathogens tend to mutation into more communicable, less lethal versions over time. But that time can be decades. There are examples of this already.


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## xxo (Aug 7, 2021)

Some potential good news: preliminary studies suggest fenofibrate may be effective in preventing and treating covid virus.



Oral Drug Used to Treat Blood Fats May Reduce COVID-19 Infection by 70 Per Cent, Says Study


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## raggie33 (Aug 7, 2021)

i just inject disfectant. and use uv light...... ps im joking no one i mean no one inject ya self


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## raggie33 (Aug 7, 2021)

or let anyone else inject you lol


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## raggie33 (Aug 7, 2021)

dont do this but i know everyone here is smart enough to know not to do it


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## mjlamb (Aug 7, 2021)

Natural infection vs vaccination: Which gives more protection?


Nearly 40% of new COVID patients were vaccinated - compared to just 1% who had been infected previously.




www.israelnationalnews.com


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## turbodog (Aug 7, 2021)

mjlamb said:


> Natural infection vs vaccination: Which gives more protection?
> 
> 
> Nearly 40% of new COVID patients were vaccinated - compared to just 1% who had been infected previously.
> ...



I read the link. *The stats listed there are incredibly bad.*

They compared TOTAL recovered/vaxxed against breakthrough infections in both groups and perform math as a percent of the totals. 

You _can't_ do this. They do not know how many of the recovered/vaxxed groups were exposed. Period. Full stop.

On another note... I question a single/first post from someone who joined 1.5 years ago.


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## raggie33 (Aug 7, 2021)

you can chop of your arm becuase ya have a wart on your hand. but i go the easy route


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## mjlamb (Aug 8, 2021)

And so the lawsuits begin. 

Just wait till the CDC tries to vaccinate the little kids at school. More lawsuits and mass pull outs.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/g...tibodies-sues-over-vaccine-mandate/ar-AAN1UTO


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## mjlamb (Aug 8, 2021)

turbodog said:


> I read the link. *The stats listed there are incredibly bad.*
> 
> They compared TOTAL recovered/vaxxed against breakthrough infections in both groups and perform math as a percent of the totals.
> 
> ...


So, the Israeli health ministry is doing something wrong with their numbers? What are you trying to say?







I think they lay it out quite clearly. 











This will all play out in the coming months that the vaccination does not provide the broad and long lasting immunity that actually getting the virus does, almost no vaccinations do, or at least rarely. The Pfizer vaccine needs even another booster. This will be an every 6 month booster to keep up the immunity this vaccine provides as their own data shows it is waning after 6 months. Recovered Covid patients with no vaccine are showing robust immunity against Sars COV2 and many other Coronavirus variants including the common cold even a year and half later. 

This will all work out great for the pharmaceutical companies, they now get to use the Microsoft subscription based business model, a never ending revenue stream.... 

We will also find out if any of the Sars COV2 vaccines have caused Antibody/Vaccine Induced Enhancement. Every other Coronavirus vaccine has. This will be a nightmare for all. 

The inventors of this vaccine meant well, they did the best they could with the time they had. The most important parts of a clinical trial were skipped, the human studies. Everyone reading this post is a part of that study now, regardless if you received the vaccine or not. We will always Monday morning quarterback everything in human history, including this virus, the vaccines, and any future treatments, AND WE SHOULD. 

The scary part is the censorship from anyone that disagrees with the effectiveness or safety of these vaccines. This includes very respected research clinicians, Nobel prize winners, inventors, etc. There is no such thing as settled science. There must be a robust open debate on any and all topics that effect the future of mankind.


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## Poppy (Aug 8, 2021)

Last year I advocated that the feds should buy out a home schooling program, and add a virtual component. Then any parent who does not want to send their child to "in person" schooling, they have that option.

I'm glad that I am no longer an employer. Damned if you do, and damned if you don't mandate vaccinations. I wonder if there is a worker's comp / liability coverage for such suits, or if the carriers will even offer/require some kind of rider.


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## turbodog (Aug 8, 2021)

mjlamb said:


> So, the Israeli health ministry is doing something wrong with their numbers? What are you trying to say?
> ...
> does not provide the broad and long lasting immunity that actually getting the virus does, almost no vaccinations do, or at least rarely. ...



As the article reads, the stats calculation is laughably bad, and I already detailed why.

And that second statement is just flat out wrong. Vaccines almost always provide better and longer lasting protection (with mumps being a notable exception).

*I'm calling your posts as very, very suspect. Registered 18 months ago, and just _now_ posting... posts which just happen to be in the covid thread? No customary "hi everyone" type introduction... I smell a rat... *


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## mjlamb (Aug 9, 2021)

turbodog said:


> As the article reads, the stats calculation is laughably bad, and I already detailed why.
> 
> And that second statement is just flat out wrong. Vaccines almost always provide better and longer lasting protection (with mumps being a notable exception).
> 
> *I'm calling your posts as very, very suspect. Registered 18 months ago, and just _now_ posting... posts which just happen to be in the covid thread? No customary "hi everyone" type introduction... I smell a rat... *


A rat in what respect? Because someone is new to you they can't have an opinion? Or just not an opposing opinion to yours.

Maybe the Iceland data may meet your approval.









What Iceland's rising Covid-19 case count tells us about vaccine efficacy


Iceland has such a high vaccination rate that it's seeing more Covid-19 cases among the vaccinated than the unvaccinated. But the death rate is still zero.




qz.com





Long ago I was a member at cpfmarketplace with many registered sales and purchases. If that makes you feel any better....


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## bykfixer (Aug 9, 2021)

My son joined a forum in 2010 and made his first post in 2015. His first post was how to install motor B into car A without any of the usual complications. Eight years later his project is still flawless. Was his join date versus first post meaning his info was irrelevant or was it perhaps he enjoyed the membership/logged in priveledges versus visitor status until the day he decided to join a conversation about an issue that was popular at the time and he could add an aspect not mentioned previously?

Although I may not agree with every word in post 292 there are certainly things to ponder. Afterall once upon a time conventional wisdom dictated alluminum chlorohydrate was a good thing in under arm deodarant. Lead was thought of as safe in paint, and my favorite……the sun revolves around earth.

To add, just 3 weeks ago who had heard of this Jelly character. Now he owns CPF. Does his post count make him less viable to have an opinion in a thread where a bunch of flashlight nuts discuss a novel virus?


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## turbodog (Aug 9, 2021)

The Iceland article is just as bad as the Israel one. Iceland's talking gross number of infections w/o calculating those as a percent/rate. You just can't do that. Faulty math. Faulty assumptions.


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## Poppy (Aug 9, 2021)

turbodog said:


> The Iceland article is just as bad as the Israel one. Iceland's talking gross number of infections w/o calculating those as a percent/rate. You just can't do that. Faulty math. Faulty assumptions.


Garbage in... garbage out.


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## raggie33 (Aug 9, 2021)

sarah cooper is the woman in the video i been following her from the start when she had like 500 followers i think she has a netflix show now


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## bykfixer (Aug 9, 2021)

mjlamb said:


> And so the lawsuits begin.
> 
> Just wait till the CDC tries to vaccinate the little kids at school. More lawsuits and mass pull outs.


Right now the "mercury mom's" are freaking out because the Delta thing has begun to show signs of affecting little kids. "oh no, to vax means little Graham will have mutated children"……"to not vax and little Graham is going to die"……"what to do, what to do?" 

It sounds like people who got the shot and those who had the virus then recovered are BOTH likely to fight off the variants.
Percentages? Who cares? What matters is both are largely fighting it off.


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## bigfoot (Aug 9, 2021)

mjlamb said:


> The scary part is the censorship from anyone that disagrees with the effectiveness or safety of these vaccines. This includes very respected research clinicians, Nobel prize winners, inventors, etc. There is no such thing as settled science. There must be a robust open debate on any and all topics that effect the future of mankind.



**This.*  Boom, nailed it!*

We are watching this bizarre movie play out in real-time. (And sadly, I don't think the credits are about to roll.) IMHO, the best thing folks can do is to look out for family, friends, neighbors, and their community.

Unfortunately, politics, science, money, information, and control have become intertwined in a big jumbled mess. Statistics are going to come and go. Regulations and restrictions are going to come and go. Medical approaches are all over the map. But being prepared and staying as healthy as possible will always pay dividends.

(Although I still don't understand the TP shortages... 😄)


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## turbodog (Aug 9, 2021)

mjlamb said:


> I don't know.... This chart from the article seams pretty simple and self explanatory...



If one thinks that chart is self explanatory, then that person does not appear to be capable of understanding the data presented. The chart, by itself, is meaningless, and must be combined with another data point (the article) to be relevant.

For those able to read and understand:

The chart shows raw numbers, approx 3x as many breakthrough infections in vaxxed as unvaxxed.

However, Iceland is ~98% vaxxed, *so 2% (the unvaxxed) of the population is creating 1/3 as many breakthrough infections as the other 98% of vaxxed are*.

*So yes, this is absolutely a surge in the unvaxxed group.*

If one missed this crucial & glaringly obvious distinction, then one must ask themselves what other more subtle things they might have missed.


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## bykfixer (Aug 9, 2021)

bigfoot said:


> **This.*  Boom, nailed it!*
> 
> We are watching this bizarre movie play out in real-time. (And sadly, I don't think the credits are about to roll.) IMHO, the best thing folks can do is to look out for family, friends, neighbors, and their community.
> 
> ...


Well put


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## Mister Ed (Aug 9, 2021)

I highly suggest some of you take it to the underground. https://www.cpfunderground.com/


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## PhotonWrangler (Aug 9, 2021)

...and I'm guessing that the severity of the disease in those vaccinated residents of Iceland is far less than the unvaxxed. My understanding is that the vaccine doesn't prevent infection in all cases, but it does prevent severe illness, hospitalization or death in nearly all.


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## Poppy (Aug 9, 2021)

Fact Check-COVID-19 cases in Iceland are not proof that vaccines are ineffective​Reuters August 2, 2021

This article supports the comments made by TurboDog








Fact Check-COVID-19 cases in Iceland are not proof that vaccines are ineffective


Rising COVID-19 cases in Iceland are not proof that vaccines are a “failure”, despite claims made online.




www.reuters.com


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## Poppy (Aug 9, 2021)

I don't know where we are in the country regarding percentage of the population who has a certain level of immunity, I.E. those who have been vaccinated plus those who have naturally acquired immunity. Nor do I know where we will be in a month after this surge, of primarily the unvaccinated. Hopefully we will have attained herd immunity.

However the scare is, will we (or rather will the virus) create a new variant or two, or ten, that will make us start all over again, before *global herd immunity* is attained? Variant production may not happen here in the US, it may happen in a unvaccinated country, one who's only defense is for everyone to get the disease and acquire natural immunity. That'll translate into my estimate, 3 billion infected people. Each infection presents a possibility of a mutant.

Has anyone heard of a plan to vaccinate the globe?

I know that the US and other countries have bought some vaccine shots for other countries, but is it anywhere near enough? If not, there will certainly be more, new variants.

Now that we have the knowledge, and ability to create mRNA vaccines, could a new vaccine be created and produced within a few months?


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## mjlamb (Aug 10, 2021)

There will never be a successful Covid vaccine. No different than there will never be a successful flu vaccine. We are stuck with it as we are with the flu and other respitory viruses. This isn't like Polio... These respitory viruses have animal reservoirs, even if we stamp it down in humans it will be back. What are you going to do vaccinate all the bats too? Years from now when they've taken it as far as they can and the patents on all the new Covid drugs have timed out there will be a Covid section at Walgreens right there with the cold/flu/allergies section. We'll look back at this and say wtf?


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## mjlamb (Aug 10, 2021)

Roughly 3 million flu infections annually. Roughly half a million flu hospitalizations annually. Roughly 50,000 flu deaths annually. These are US only estimates from CDC.

For those of you that do not know this.... The flu that we have circulating today is descendent mutations of the 1918 pandemic virus. We never beat it or fixed it. We merely survived it.

Influenza... Going strong since 6000 BC.


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## bykfixer (Aug 10, 2021)

I had what was called a decendent of the spanish flu in the 90's MJ. I was down for weeks. 

I did not know that's what it was until the covid first hit. Still don't know for certain, but I read up on the spanish flu and saw that 10's of thousands died from it in the 1990's. Thinking back last year to the number of people around me at the time who were also nearly wiped out I figured "musta been that pesky 1917 flu". 
Some scholars believe that one began in the 13th century in China. Others believe it came from a pig farm in Kansas USA. Like this novel virus of the 21st century perhaps we'll never know for certain it's actual origin. But like any virus that made it around the world in 80 days this one won't be mitigated anytime soon.


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## mjlamb (Aug 10, 2021)

But what’s truly incredible, according to genetic analyses, is that the same novel strain of flu first introduced in 1918 appears to be the direct ancestor of every seasonal and pandemic flu we’ve had over the past century.

“You can still find the genetic traces of the 1918 virus in the seasonal flus that circulate today,” says Taubenberger. “Every single human infection with influenza A in the past 102 years is derived from that one introduction of the 1918 flu.” 

Jeffrey Taubenberger, MD PHD
Chief, Viral Pathogenesis and Evolution Section NIH NIAID









Why the 1918 Flu Pandemic Never Really Ended


After infecting millions of people worldwide, the 1918 flu strain shifted—and then stuck around.




www.history.com


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## ledbetter (Aug 11, 2021)

So it’s get vaccinated or get sick, and the faster either happens the better, though I do sympathize with healthcare workers. Then another break between waves so everyone can travel and party again before the next wave or bug bites us again. I foresee wearing a mask indoors for a long time.


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## idleprocess (Aug 11, 2021)

ledbetter said:


> Then another break between waves so everyone can travel and party again before the next wave or bug bites us again. I foresee wearing a mask indoors for a long time.


Same. The roller coaster will probably make at least one more loop.


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## turbodog (Aug 11, 2021)

I'm curious about delta. It's spreading more rapidly than any other variant... and at some of the highest R0 levels seen. So... seems like anything new would be out-competed by delta, unless a new variant has an even higher R0 or evades all known biological countermeasures (vaccines, recovered infected).


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## raggie33 (Aug 11, 2021)

its a rough time to be ocd and germ phobic. and i keep forgeting my darn mask


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## bykfixer (Aug 11, 2021)

I use the dental kind Raggae and tie string to the ear loops so I can wear it like a necklace. Any old string will work.

Recently I carry one in my shirt pocket at work but that's because my dressy bessy office dweller atire usually has a shirt pocket. But when not at work the necklace mask goes with me.


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## Poppy (Aug 11, 2021)

ledbetter said:


> So it’s get vaccinated or get sick, and the faster either happens the better, <SNIP>


IF and when everyone gets vaccinated and or infected (and sick) we'll attain herd immunity, hopefully. Except, while those who are not vaccinated, are getting infected and working on getting natural acquired immunity, they may also be creating a new mutation, AKA variant.

That's how we got the delta variant.
Now there's a lambda variant.
And the wheel keeps turning round and round.


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## raggie33 (Aug 11, 2021)

im afraid this me be are generations black plague


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## ledbetter (Aug 12, 2021)

From what I’ve read, herd immunity is a pipe dream that will never happen with COVID, especially with the delta variant. With a significant percentage of the population unvaccinated, including children who are unable, and the vaccinated who are able to contract and transmit the virus, there’s no way to achieve textbook herd immunity. So it goes.


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## Mister Ed (Aug 12, 2021)

Just a reminder, CPF is not a political forum, and if you'd like to discuss them further, feel free to visit the underground.


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## jtr1962 (Aug 13, 2021)

bykfixer said:


> To me if this one had a 14-15% death rate overall with 50% for those over 64 like the 03 SARS did I seriously doubt this conversation would be taking place. If so it would be in between folks in line getting the SARS shot. ……


Umm, as near as I can tell based on what happened in spring 2020 when hospitals were overwhelmed the death rate without treatment is in the 5% to 10% range. It looks like the hospitals are getting overwhelmed again in some states. If you happen to get it in those states you won't be able to count on getting treatment. The vaccine reduces the chance of severe disease and death. By how much is an open question because the numbers are in flux but here's a good read on breakthrough cases.


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## jtr1962 (Aug 13, 2021)

Poppy said:


> IF and when everyone gets vaccinated and or infected (and sick) we'll attain herd immunity, hopefully. Except, while those who are not vaccinated, are getting infected and working on getting natural acquired immunity, they may also be creating a new mutation, AKA variant.
> 
> That's how we got the delta variant.
> Now there's a lambda variant.
> And the wheel keeps turning round and round.


Now the experts are saying herd immunity might not be attainable. It's looking like the rest of my life is going to be staying in my house and going to the local grocery store every other week. I'm debating whether to kill myself now or later.

It didn't have to be this way if only people had listened.


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## bykfixer (Aug 13, 2021)

Does anybody here honestly believe that 7 billion people would get an experimental shot before the virus mutated into several variations?

I mean seriously, if every man women and child on planet earth said "what the heck, I'll take one" do folks really think all versions of this thing would just say "ok you win" and just vanish?

Best we can hope for is supression through natural immunity and the shot soon to be FDA approved. But unlike the measles, this pesky little bug is a chameleon-like gene and can adapt. 

If history shows us anything, history shows that history will teach us nothing.


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## raggie33 (Aug 13, 2021)

all i know is philly cheese steak pizza is yummy and and many chinease people live in asia


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## turbodog (Aug 13, 2021)

Heads up... for those that get a 3rd shot... I am hearing that they can be ROUGH, many times worse than the initial series. Of course... it's still worth it.


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## nbp (Aug 13, 2021)

jtr1962 said:


> Now the experts are saying herd immunity might not be attainable. It's looking like the rest of my life is going to be staying in my house and going to the local grocery store every other week. I'm debating whether to kill myself now or later.
> 
> It didn't have to be this way if only people had listened.


That sounds worse than death. Get your vaccine, wear a mask if you want, and go live your life. I’m going to die one day of something. I’d sure like to enjoy it in the meantime. Being miserable and then dying sounds a lot worse than being happy and then dying.


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## jtr1962 (Aug 13, 2021)

nbp said:


> That sounds worse than death. Get your vaccine, wear a mask if you want, and go live your life. I’m going to die one day of something. I’d sure like to enjoy it in the meantime. Being miserable and then dying sounds a lot worse than being happy and then dying.


It's not enjoyable running around with a mask. I'd rather just stay home. Unfortunately, being vaccinated only decreases your odds of dying. The decrease was huge prior to the delta variant. Now it might be as low as a factor of 7 or 8.

Time to just accept that I'll never be able to do any of the things I used to do.

We all die of something. I want that something to be when my organs wear out when I'm 100 to 110, not from a stupid respiratory virus when I'm a lot younger.


----------



## jtr1962 (Aug 13, 2021)

bykfixer said:


> Does anybody here honestly believe that 7 billion people would get an experimental shot before the virus mutated into several variations?
> 
> I mean seriously, if every man women and child on planet earth said "what the heck, I'll take one" do folks really think all versions of this thing would just say "ok you win" and just vanish?
> 
> ...


It actually doesn't mutate all that fast compared to the flu. Look how much it had to spread to get to a really nasty mutation like delta. If people would have just listened when this started, the number of cases would have been far less, and there would be no delta mutation. The vaccine would have let at least most first world countries get to herd immunity by now. We restrict travel from the countries where it's still spreading until they reach herd immunity via vaccination.

3 orders of magnitude difference in deaths and cases between countries which handled this the best versus those handling it the worst. If everyone did as well the best countries, ~1/1000th the number of cases, 1/1000th the odds that a nasty mutation would have appeared. Then administer the vaccine, get to herd immunity, and we're done. We killed off SARS with only about 800 deaths.


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## jtr1962 (Aug 13, 2021)

turbodog said:


> Heads up... for those that get a 3rd shot... I am hearing that they can be ROUGH, many times worse than the initial series. Of course... it's still worth it.


Aren't they going to make a variant-specific vaccine first before having large numbers of people getting their third shot? For now I thought the third shot was mainly for immuno-compromised people who didn't develop enough antibodies from the first two shots.


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## mjlamb (Aug 13, 2021)

jtr1962 said:


> It actually doesn't mutate all that fast compared to the flu. Look how much it had to spread to get to a really nasty mutation like delta. If people would have just listened when this started, the number of cases would have been far less, and there would be no delta mutation. The vaccine would have let at least most first world countries get to herd immunity by now. We restrict travel from the countries where it's still spreading until they reach herd immunity via vaccination.
> 
> 3 orders of magnitude difference in deaths and cases between countries which handled this the best versus those handling it the worst. If everyone did as well the best countries, ~1/1000th the number of cases, 1/1000th the odds that a nasty mutation would have appeared. Then administer the vaccine, get to herd immunity, and we're done. We killed off SARS with only about 800 deaths.


SARS COV is much less infectious but more deadly than SARS COV2. Only 8000 cases worldwide with a 10% death rate. 8 confirmed cases of SARS in the US.... Apples and oranges to SARS COV2. SARS COV2 is more comparable to Influenza, highly infectious with a low death rate.


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## turbodog (Aug 13, 2021)

jtr1962 said:


> Aren't they going to make a variant-specific vaccine first before having large numbers of people getting their third shot? For now I thought the third shot was mainly for immuno-compromised people who didn't develop enough antibodies from the first two shots.



From what I read, those are in the works. Thankfully pfizer/moderna are extremely useful against all current strains.

I expect that most efforts are focused on FDA approval and trials for under 12.

3rd shot... useful for certain people. The US is oversupplied with shots.


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## jtr1962 (Aug 13, 2021)

turbodog said:


> 3rd shot... useful for certain people. The US is oversupplied with shots.


That I know. If it's a choice of letting the vaccine expire, versus giving some people a third shot, the latter is preferable by far.


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## bykfixer (Aug 13, 2021)

jtr1962 said:


> It actually doesn't mutate all that fast compared to the flu. Look how much it had to spread to get to a really nasty mutation like delta. If people would have just listened when this started, the number of cases would have been far less, and there would be no delta mutation. The vaccine would have let at least most first world countries get to herd immunity by now. We restrict travel from the countries where it's still spreading until they reach herd immunity via vaccination.
> 
> 3 orders of magnitude difference in deaths and cases between countries which handled this the best versus those handling it the worst. If everyone did as well the best countries, ~1/1000th the number of cases, 1/1000th the odds that a nasty mutation would have appeared. Then administer the vaccine, get to herd immunity, and we're done. We killed off SARS with only about 800 deaths.



I see rainbows and unicorns in this post……


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## jtr1962 (Aug 13, 2021)

bykfixer said:


> I see rainbows and unicorns in this post……


Until the delta variant came most experts believed we could eventually attain herd immunity. Many thought we would get there in first-world countries by the end of this year, perhaps everywhere a year or two later. Polio and smallpox were endemic worldwide and we eradicated them.


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## nbp (Aug 13, 2021)

jtr1962 said:


> It's not enjoyable running around with a mask. I'd rather just stay home. Unfortunately, being vaccinated only decreases your odds of dying. The decrease was huge prior to the delta variant. Now it might be as low as a factor of 7 or 8.
> 
> Time to just accept that I'll never be able to do any of the things I used to do.
> 
> We all die of something. I want that something to be when my organs wear out when I'm 100 to 110, not from a stupid respiratory virus when I'm a lot younger.


Sorry but living until I’m 100 but being miserable every day sounds terrible. No thanks. Gotta find a balance in there.


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## jtr1962 (Aug 13, 2021)

nbp said:


> Sorry but living until I’m 100 but being miserable every day sounds terrible. No thanks. Gotta find a balance in there.


Sadly that _is_ the balance. Right now the alternatives are:

1) go out, wear a mask, be uncomfortable(especially in hot weather), not enjoy it one bit
2) not wear a mask, worry for the next week if you caught covid or not
3) just go out if you absolutely have to, and take every precaution when you do

For now #3 is the most attractive option. I didn't make the world this way. I'm just living in it.
A respirator is less uncomfortable than a mask, but still quite uncomfortable in warmer weather.

The longer I live the better chance I have of living in a world where covid is a distant memory.

Don't forget I have my 82 year old mother living here who hasn't been vaccinated. We were going to do that at her next doctor's appointment. Unfortunately, her doctor passed away suddenly.


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## turbodog (Aug 14, 2021)

It's been posited that if it mutates enough for current vaccines to be useless then it won't be infective anymore. Remember, the spike isn't there for looks... it's very functional.

From what I read, pfizer/moderna vaccines are targeting multiple parts of the spike. The vaccine makers are pretty sharp people.


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## mjlamb (Aug 14, 2021)

jtr1962 said:


> Aren't they going to make a variant-specific vaccine first before having large numbers of people getting their third shot? For now I thought the third shot was mainly for immuno-compromised people who didn't develop enough antibodies from the first two shots.


Folks holding on to this idea that a vaccine is going to fix this problem are going to be let down. They (CDC) know this, they've known this. Please read the interview I linked with Fauci a few posts ago. The NIH will soon transfer their main focus towards a pill for treatment, not prevention. Oh sure, they will still try to sell the American public on getting vaccinated, follow the money.... What they are calling a vaccine doesn't meet the definition of vaccine, inoculation, or immunization. It is a treatment. It doesn't prevent you from getting or spreading SARS COV2, it merely eases the symptoms you experience if you are infected. They have also known this all along as well. They string their messaging to get your to do what they want for the good of all... If people knew that the Covid vaccine wasn't really a vaccine and wouldn't prevent transmission or infection would this many people have gotten a totally unknown untested drug? The answer is no.

Viruses are living organisms and are very good at doing what they must do to survive... change. This virus will mutate as needed, just as the Flu has and does.

No different than the 1918 Flu genetic descendants kill 50,000 people yearly in the US on average, Covid-19 will be killing people 100 years from now as well.

The "approved" messaging by the media changes all the time. Remember when everyone was leaving their packages in the garage to "decontaminate" until the CDC figured out surface to surface transmission doesn't happen? Remember when there was no way this came from the lab until it did? Remember when Fauci didn't fund the Wuhan lab until they found the grant papers? 

________________________________________________________________




https://archive.is/t3yv4#selection-1431.0-1431.272


New York Magazine 8-12-2021

*"The vaccines were never tested to prevent transmission, only symptomatic disease, and those who knew the science expected, from the outset, that we would see some number of such cases, *and that they would be, overwhelmingly, mild. But Delta appears to have changed things."

*“The message that breakthrough cases are exceedingly rare and that you don’t have to worry about them if you’re vaccinated — that this is only an epidemic of the unvaccinated — that message is falling flat,” Harvard epidemiologist Michael Mina* told me in the long interview that follows below. “If this was still Alpha, sure. But with Delta, plenty of people are getting sick. Plenty of transmission is going on. And my personal opinion is that the whole notion of herd immunity from two vaccine shots is flying out the window very quickly with this new variant.”


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## Poppy (Aug 14, 2021)

Conspiracy theories are tiring. 

The takeaway from the above post is:
This leopard has changed its spots.

It is still a Corona Virus with spikes, and these vaccines are aimed at Corona Virii with spikes.

It has always been expected, that there will be some breakthrough infections, and suspected, that they will typically be relatively mild. Most importantly for the most part they will not be hospitalized, and even so, a smaller percentage will die. It appears that the Delta variant is causing more breakthroughs than hoped.

It was unknown if an infected vaccinated person would shed enough virii to infect others. With the mutated version called the Delta Variant, it has shown that one can. It is still unknown what the percentage of vaccinated people are asymptomatic breakthrough cases, nor how likely they are to spread the disease.

What is known is that a very small percentage of the hospitalized and die-ing are vaccinated breakthrough cases. Almost all are unvaccinated.

It is also known that wearing even an inefficient cloth mask reduces the rate of spread from an infected to others. Therefore we have seen more frequent calls for mask wearing once again.


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## xxo (Aug 14, 2021)

Poppy said:


> It is also known that wearing even an inefficient cloth mask reduces the rate of spread from an infected to others. Therefore we have seen more frequent calls for mask wearing once again.




Known to who? Do you have any peer reviewed medical studies that support this?


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## Poppy (Aug 14, 2021)

Efficacy of face mask in preventing respiratory virus transmission: A systematic review and meta-analysis - PubMed


This study adds additional evidence of the enhanced protective value of masks, we stress that the use masks serve as an adjunctive method regarding the COVID-19 outbreak.




pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov






*Results: *A total of 21 studies met our inclusion criteria. Meta-analyses suggest that mask use provided a significant protective effect


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## Poppy (Aug 14, 2021)

You may also look earlier on in this thread or the covid threads here at CPF where videos of studies were presented of particulate matter spread in a confined space and how the use of masks reduce the spread.


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## jtr1962 (Aug 14, 2021)

Poppy said:


> You may also look earlier on in this thread or the covid threads here at CPF where videos of studies were presented of particulate matter spread in a confined space and how the use of masks reduce the spread.


Not to mention masks have been used in the medical profession for well over a century to prevent the spread of pathogens.



> Conspiracy theories are tiring.


+1. It's getting really old at this point.


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## xxo (Aug 14, 2021)

Poppy said:


> Efficacy of face mask in preventing respiratory virus transmission: A systematic review and meta-analysis - PubMed
> 
> 
> This study adds additional evidence of the enhanced protective value of masks, we stress that the use masks serve as an adjunctive method regarding the COVID-19 outbreak.
> ...


 
Interesting that the NIH site that you linked to, (where Dr. Fauci works), doesn't seem to mention ordinary cloth masks or even links to published studies or their conclusions. Apparently Dr Fauci wasn't all that convinced, since he advised a colleague not to wear a mask in private emails.

And the best the CDC could come up with to justify their new mask guidelines was a junk science study from India that was rejected for publication after failing to pass peer review.

https://justthenews.com/politics-po...dance-based-vaccine-study-listed-failing-peer

We have been down this road back in 1918 during a much more deadly pandemic and masks were found to be ineffective at best and a vector to spread the flu virus at worst, for many of the same reasons cloth masks as worn today are ineffective – they don't stop the virus, they give a false sense of protection and they promote increased touching of the face.


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## Poppy (Aug 14, 2021)

I don't know how one can make a valid comparison to the 1918 flu.

It has been estimated that the rate of growth of medical knowledge has geometrically increased.
In 1900 it would double in 100 years.
In 1950 - 50 years
in 1980 - 7 years
in 2010 - 3.5 years
and now in 2020 it is estimated that medical knowledge doubles every 73 days!

Back in 1918, they didn't have any antibiotics, and certainly no anti-viral medication.
In fact one of the drugs that was frequently prescribed was whiskey.

Follow the money, perhaps the whiskey brewers made a lot of money then.


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## jtr1962 (Aug 14, 2021)

mjlamb said:


> The "approved" messaging by the media changes all the time. Remember when everyone was leaving their packages in the garage to "decontaminate" until the CDC figured out surface to surface transmission doesn't happen? Remember when there was no way this came from the lab until it did? Remember when Fauci didn't fund the Wuhan lab until they found the grant papers?


Of course the messaging changes as we learn more about the virus, and also as it mutates. That's basic science and medicine, but you're trying to spin it into some kind of grand conspiracy.

Here's the fact check on what you're referring to about Dr. Fauci:



Fact-check: Did Dr. Fauci fund research that created COVID-19?



_Although the NIH did fund a project at the Wuhan lab, there’s no proof that the coronavirus was bioengineered. Both the WorldNetDaily article and Hilton’s segment rely on a series of unsubstantiated allegations to spin a conspiracy theory about the virus being a lab creation._


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## xxo (Aug 14, 2021)

Poppy said:


> I don't know how one can make a valid comparison to the 1918 flu.
> 
> It has been estimated that the rate of growth of medical knowledge has geometrically increased.
> In 1900 it would double in 100 years.
> ...


 
And yet all we get lies, lies and more lies from Dr. Fauci and junk science from the CDC.

Follow the money is right.

The money trail leads to big tech oligarchs, big pharma and their politician/bureaucrat shills and lapdog media that they bought off.

They closed down small businesses and kept amazon and walmart open.

They demonized or ignored potential cures/preventives like Hydroxychloroquine/zinc, ivermectin, and fenofibrate and censored anyone that even mentioned them on social media. These are all safe drugs taken by millions of people around the world everyday that are off patent and cost pennies. It is because of this that big pharma wants nothing to do with them and they use their flacks like Dr. Fauci from letting them be used as treatments or preventatives for covid. Instead Fauci pushed remdesivir which cost over $3,000.00 and failed as a treatment for covid but did cause many serious side effects and killed many people as it did in 2018 when Dr. Fauci fast tracked it as a cure for ebola. Despite the dismal failures of remdesivir, thanks to Dr. Fauci big pharma still made 6 billion dollars (much of it from taxpayers) off of it.

Now big pharma is said to be working on a way to re-invent ivermectin so that they can patent it and rake in more billions.


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## jtr1962 (Aug 14, 2021)

So the latest fad is character assassination of Dr. Fauci? Whatever his flaws, I'll take his advice on handling the pandemic over that of the talking heads doing puff pieces on him.



> They demonized or ignored potential cures/preventives like Hydroxychloroquine/zinc, ivermectin, and fenofibrate and censored anyone that even mentioned them on social media.



Maybe it had to do with peer-reviewed studies showing they were ineffective? Doctors would have jumped at an inexpensive treatment for covid if any of the drugs you mentioned actually worked. Heck it would have been great if aspirin worked. Everything isn't a conspiracy theory. And repeating the same lies over and over and over isn't going to make them true.

The censorship, if you want to call it that, existed because these lies were getting people killed, same as the junk you've been spewing here. BTW, it's not even censorship. You go on any social media website, including this one, you're subject to their terms of use. They can ban you or remove your posts for any reason they wish. First amendment rights don't guarantee you an audience.


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## Poppy (Aug 14, 2021)

I'm done with this line of discussion, neither of us will win, and it will take too much energy, all of it negative.


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## jtr1962 (Aug 14, 2021)

Poppy said:


> I'm done with this line of discussion, neither of us will win, and it will take too much energy, all of it negative.
> 
> View attachment 15030


I did the same with xxo in the other thread. The old saying you're entitled to your own opinion but not your own facts applies in this case. Hard to argue with a person who keeps trying to push an alternate reality.


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## nbp (Aug 14, 2021)

I find it fascinating that near 70% of Americans happily chug down prescription drugs every day despite knowing next to nothing about them, and there being tens of thousands of cases of adverse drug reactions and even deaths annually, but suddenly freak the heck out when offered a vaccine that may save their life, made by the same companies they already get drugs from, because they don’t know much about them and there is a tiny chance of an adverse reaction. I cannot brain this. Why don’t the anti vaxxers reject all pharmaceuticals they don’t understand and might possibly hurt them?


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## jtr1962 (Aug 14, 2021)

nbp said:


> I find it fascinating that near 70% of Americans happily chug down prescription drugs every day despite knowing next to nothing about them, and there being tens of thousands of cases of adverse drug reactions and even deaths annually, but suddenly freak the heck out when offered a vaccine that may save their life, made by the same companies they already get drugs from, because they don’t know much about them and there is a tiny chance of an adverse reaction. I cannot brain this. Why don’t the anti vaxxers reject all pharmaceuticals they don’t understand and might possibly hurt them?


Thank you! Exactly what I was thinking of writing. Prescription drugs are responsible for over 100,000 deaths per year. Yet the same people whose medicine cabinet probably looks like a pharmacy are finding excuse after excuse not to get vaccinated.

Incidentally, the only issue I had getting the vaccine was fear of needles, and this was due to something that happened in grade school. When the school nurse was vaccinating kids, she stuck the needle in me as if she was vaccinating a cow. Hurt like crazy, probably hit the bone. Next time I had to get a needle, it took 3 people to hold me down. So my fear was more of any pain but I didn't even feel the needle go in. I actually said "that's it?" after I got the shot.


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## turbodog (Aug 14, 2021)

nbp said:


> I find it fascinating that near 70% of Americans happily chug down prescription drugs every day despite knowing next to nothing about them, and there being tens of thousands of cases of adverse drug reactions and even deaths annually, but suddenly freak the heck out when offered a vaccine that may save their life, made by the same companies they already get drugs from, because they don’t know much about them and there is a tiny chance of an adverse reaction. I cannot brain this. Why don’t the anti vaxxers reject all pharmaceuticals they don’t understand and might possibly hurt them?



Because coherent, fact-based, logic-based debates obliterate their position. They _think_ they are thinking, but they are not. They bought into a failed position from the get-go.

It's a tactic I use in my sales/close the deal meetings. I give 2 choices, which gives the appearance the customer chooses, but either case is a win for me as I picked the constraints of the game.


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## idleprocess (Aug 14, 2021)

nbp said:


> I find it fascinating that near 70% of Americans happily chug down prescription drugs every day despite knowing next to nothing about them, and there being tens of thousands of cases of adverse drug reactions and even deaths annually, but suddenly freak the heck out when offered a vaccine that may save their life, made by the same companies they already get drugs from, because they don’t know much about them and there is a tiny chance of an adverse reaction. I cannot brain this. Why don’t the anti vaxxers reject all pharmaceuticals they don’t understand and might possibly hurt them?


Yeah, much of the demo that's suddenly oh so very concerned about vaccine safety has really _stepped out of character_. Any other situation this same group is upset about the very existence of the likes of seatbelts, antilock breaks, and any sort of warning label or marginal idiot protection - and simultaneously complains about the lack of leaded gas, and lawnmowers without deadman switches on the market.


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## Stress_Test (Aug 15, 2021)

nbp said:


> I find it fascinating that near 70% of Americans happily chug down prescription drugs every day despite knowing next to nothing about them, and there being tens of thousands of cases of adverse drug reactions and even deaths annually, but suddenly freak the heck out when offered a vaccine that may save their life, made by the same companies they already get drugs from, because they don’t know much about them and there is a tiny chance of an adverse reaction. I cannot brain this. Why don’t the anti vaxxers reject all pharmaceuticals they don’t understand and might possibly hurt them?


Similar thoughts occurred to me. But heck, what about all the *non-prescription* "recreational drugs" that millions(?) of Americans use or have used. 

I bet a lot of those people screaming that the vaccines are "unsafe" have also done their fair share of pot, coke, LSD, and probably a bunch of other stuff I don't even know the names of! 

(I'm one of the rare people who never tried any of that, but it seems like almost *everyone *I know has at some point)


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## jtr1962 (Aug 15, 2021)

idleprocess said:


> Yeah, much of the demo that's suddenly oh so very concerned about vaccine safety has really _stepped out of character_. Any other situation this same group is upset about the very existence of the likes of seatbelts, antilock breaks, and any sort of warning label or marginal idiot protection - and simultaneously complains about the lack of leaded gas, and lawnmowers without deadman switches on the market.


Cognitive dissonance is the proper name for it. Another manifestation I just thought of is the latest conspiracy theory blaming Dr. Fauci for covid. Not long ago these same people were claiming covid is a hoax, it's no worse than the common cold. If so, then who cares if it's manmade or not, and why make a villain of the person you claim created it unless you really do believe it's real and dangerous? Literally every time these people open their mouths there's more holes than swiss cheese.

I encountered a similar thought process in NYC when we were installing bike lanes. Some of the people against them were saying stuff like "bikes kill untold numbers of people and pets". Then they were saying the bike lanes should be removed because "hardly anyone uses them". So which is it? Either there's lots of bikes supposedly causing harm, or they're hardly used (and by extension can't be causing the mass mayhem the opponents claim because nobody is using them).


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## jtr1962 (Aug 15, 2021)

Stress_Test said:


> Similar thoughts occurred to me. But heck, what about all the *non-prescription* "recreational drugs" that millions(?) of Americans use or have used.
> 
> I bet a lot of those people screaming that the vaccines are "unsafe" have also done their fair share of pot, coke, LSD, and probably a bunch of other stuff I don't even know the names of!


Well, that would account for a lot of the thought patterns I'm seeing. Those drugs are known to cause brain damage when used in excess.


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## xxo (Aug 15, 2021)

jtr1962 said:


> Maybe it had to do with peer-reviewed studies showing they were ineffective? Doctors would have jumped at an inexpensive treatment for covid if any of the drugs you mentioned actually worked. Heck it would have been great if aspirin worked. Everything isn't a conspiracy theory. And repeating the same lies over and over and over isn't going to make them true.


 
Their have been many doctors who have had success treating patients with hydrochloquine/zinc, most notably Dr. Zelenko who treated 2200 covid patients with only two deaths, but this is probably the least effective of the drugs that I mentioned and Dr. Zelenko now uses ivermectin as part of his protocol.

Ivermectin is the most promising so far with 63 studies showing it to be 75-92% effective at preventing covid and 56-84% effective in early treatment. Ivermectin could be a game changer if they got it out to large numbers of people at high risk along with other measures like vaccines, hand washing/sanitizing and social distancing.



https://ivmmeta.com/



Early studies on fenofibrate suggest that it may reduce covid infection by up to 70%.









Fenofibrate could reduce COVID-19 infection by 70%


According to a new study, fenofibrate, a drug used to treat abnormal levels of fatty substances in the blood, could reduce COVID-19 infection by up to 70%




www.openaccessgovernment.org


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## Coyotease (Aug 15, 2021)

nbp said:


> I find it fascinating that near 70% of Americans happily chug down prescription drugs every day despite knowing next to nothing about them, and there being tens of thousands of cases of adverse drug reactions and even deaths annually, but suddenly freak the heck out when offered a vaccine that may save their life, made by the same companies they already get drugs from, because they don’t know much about them and there is a tiny chance of an adverse reaction. I cannot brain this. Why don’t the anti vaxxers reject all pharmaceuticals they don’t understand and might possibly hurt them?


That's a very valid point. For whatever reason, vaccines have become a political weapon. I wonder how long before we have preferred drug companies for the right and left.


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## jtr1962 (Aug 15, 2021)

Coyotease said:


> I wonder how long before we have preferred drug companies for the right and left.


Please, let's not go there. We're all Americans. Let's stop letting the politicians pit us against each other for their political careers.


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## bykfixer (Aug 15, 2021)

When I was staying out of town for work I used to stand in the lobby of a hotel at times where they had a few televisions tuned to different stations. Sports and news channels. 
On the news channels in between the propaganda disguised as info-tainment being spewed by some manakin looking person were the exact same comercials for the exact same pills for the exact same condition. 
Oh each one promised to make your hair grow again, make the blind see, allow a diabetic to eat snickers bars all day……you know, but what I enjoyed most was at the end an auctioneer sounding voice would whisper the potential "rare" "but potentially deadly" side affects. The athsma pill for example "maycausedrowzinessdizzynessathsmaheartattackordeath"… "consultyourdoctorandstoptakingnoxillbreath"

I used to wonder if the CNN viewer and FOX viewer knew they agree on many topics like hair gel or toothpaste while hurling political insults at one another.
Ah, but then the pandemic occured. We now have that to argue about. So the light at the end of the tunnel seems to be the Delta bug carrying a really bright flashlight.


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## xxo (Aug 15, 2021)

All those medicine ads and the $ that the bring in is why you never see any negative reporting on the big pharmaceutical companies on those networks.


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## GoVegan (Aug 15, 2021)

Nitroz said:


> My son has asthma too and it definitely makes one more cautious. I work at a hospital and that makes things stressful at times.
> 
> I hope the Covid subsides in the near future. Wearing a mask for 8 hours, 5 days a week gets old.
> 
> Russ


FYI I used to have bad asthma, but have never had any symptoms for the past 18 years after going vegan. A good friend of mine too had it really bad, was on medication for years and I saw for myself their condition after running just 30 meters. After 6 months on a vegan diet they were running 5km in under 35 mins, that was about 12 years ago, and still vegan and off the medication to this day (in fact they have never been sick with even a cold in 12 years! That's the truth).


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## turbodog (Aug 15, 2021)

GoVegan said:


> FYI I used to have bad asthma, but have never had any symptoms for the past 18 years after going vegan. A good friend of mine too had it really bad, was on medication for years and I saw for myself their condition after running just 30 meters. After 6 months on a vegan diet they were running 5km in under 35 mins, that was about 12 years ago, and still vegan and off the medication to this day (in fact they have never been sick with even a cold in 12 years! That's the truth).



Maybe some weird, atypical, food allergy. Case in point, I'm allergic to chicken. But no problems with typical stuff: shellfish, peanuts, milk, etc.

Having been around chickens being grown... I'm not missing them much.


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## bykfixer (Aug 15, 2021)

xxo said:


> All those medicine ads and the $ that the bring in is why you never see any negative reporting on the big pharmaceutical companies on those networks.


I was listening to a motivational speaker not long ago who said "did you know that average Americans agree on 24 things for every one thing they disagree on?" 
"Yet that one thing they disagree on is now being broadcast very loudly and is very effective at dividing us"……

Everybody reading this probably agrees that this novel SARS virus sucks, can be dangerous, can spread easily, can NOW be treated in many instances, spread can be reduced with a few simple steps, has mutated, will probably continue to mutate, should be avoided if possible, will be remembered for decades to come, has changed life as we once knew it, and so on and so on……


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## nbp (Aug 15, 2021)

jtr1962 said:


> Thank you! Exactly what I was thinking of writing. Prescription drugs are responsible for over 100,000 deaths per year. Yet the same people whose medicine cabinet probably looks like a pharmacy are finding excuse after excuse not to get vaccinated.
> 
> Incidentally, the only issue I had getting the vaccine was fear of needles, and this was due to something that happened in grade school. When the school nurse was vaccinating kids, she stuck the needle in me as if she was vaccinating a cow. Hurt like crazy, probably hit the bone. Next time I had to get a needle, it took 3 people to hold me down. So my fear was more of any pain but I didn't even feel the needle go in. I actually said "that's it?" after I got the shot.


And that doesn't even include the $45 billion they will spend this year on supplements like vitamins, minerals, herbs, or sports and weight loss products, and the $90 billion they will spend on cosmetics, skincare, hair care etc., all of which are not FDA approved. So I sure hope no one avoiding the vaccines because they are "emergency use authorized" but not quite yet "FDA approved" ever takes a vitamin, a protein powder shake, or puts shampoo or deodorant on their body since none of those are "approved" as safe by the FDA either.


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## Stress_Test (Aug 15, 2021)

nbp said:


> ............. So I sure hope no one avoiding the vaccines because they are "emergency use authorized" but not quite yet "FDA approved" ever takes a vitamin, a protein powder shake, or puts shampoo or deodorant on their body since none of those are "approved" as safe by the FDA either.



But unlike those everyday products, the covid vaccine has not yet been used by millions and millions of people OH WAIT, IT HAS!!


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## Stress_Test (Aug 15, 2021)

I typed this into Google "number of covid vaccinated people in the usa" and it also had this handy graphic in the results:








The world-wide number is MUCH higher than I thought, at 1.8 *BILLION *people. 

It really is a miracle of modern science, manufacturing, and transportation (and divine intervention if you like) that we were able to produce and distribute so many doses in such a short time, in response to this new infection that we'd never dealt with before. 

And to top it off, the high effectiveness of the vaccine! Remember some of those years when the flu vaccine was only something like 15% effective? To achieve +90% is mind-boggling.


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## turbodog (Aug 15, 2021)

Stress_Test said:


> ...
> 
> And to top it off, the high effectiveness of the vaccine! Remember some of those years when the flu vaccine was only something like 15% effective? To achieve +90% is mind-boggling.



To achieve ~99% against the initial strain is indescribable. To still have 88% efficacy against strain #4(?), delta, is a home run.


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## xxo (Aug 15, 2021)

The problem is “fully vaccinated” does not mean immune like they led us to believe - fully vaccinated people can still get the virus and transmit it to others almost as easily as the unvaccinated. We are not going to vaccinate ourselves out of this pandemic with the vaccines that we have now - that was never going to happen.

Targeting the vaccines to the elderly and people with health problems that put them at high risk of death makes sense. Vaccines for young, healthy people is incubating vaccine resistant variants.

What we need is more treatments and prophylactics. 69 existing drugs which have been proven to be safe and effective for treating other conditions have been identified as possible treatments for covid and could be fast tracked if they are fully tested and found to be effective. The problem is even with all of the billions being spent on covid research, many of these drugs have not been tested because they have to get funding from the private donations. The government is not funding these studies and big pharma never will.



https://californiahealthline.org/news/article/fluvoxamine-antidepressant-covid-treatmerepurposed-drugs-generics/


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## raggie33 (Aug 15, 2021)

i trully quit watching the news it made me go to a dark place. i like the history channel instead or impratical jokers


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## Stress_Test (Aug 15, 2021)

xxo said:


> The problem is “fully vaccinated” does not mean immune like they led us to believe - fully vaccinated people can still get the virus and transmit it to others almost as easily as the unvaccinated. ..................................



I did cringe a bit during the early vaccination effort, when people thought "fully vaccinated" meant you could just throw caution to the wind. And that was before Delta took over. (I'm glad now that I kept wearing my mask when I was around bunches of people at work, and at the store)

It does seem that it was over-sold a bit at the time. 95% is awesome but still not foolproof. I know they wanted to do everything they could to encourage people to get the shot, but in the long run it was probably a mistake to let people think that vaccine = total free-for-all in any conditions. 

It's like the people who make body armor and armored glass will tell you: The term is "bullet-*resistant*" NOT "bullet-*proof*". That vest *should* stop the rounds it's rated for, but if it's hit with a big enough round, or enough repeated hits, you'll still be in trouble.


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## PhotonWrangler (Aug 15, 2021)

I can remember when wristwatches used to be advertised as waterproof ("It takes a licking and keeps on ticking") but then they changed it to "water resistant" instead for the same reason - nothing is perfect. Not in technology or medicine. But they're still far better than nothing.


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## jtr1962 (Aug 15, 2021)

Stress_Test said:


> I did cringe a bit during the early vaccination effort, when people thought "fully vaccinated" meant you could just throw caution to the wind. And that was before Delta took over. (I'm glad now that I kept wearing my mask when I was around bunches of people at work, and at the store)
> 
> It does seem that it was over-sold a bit at the time. 95% is awesome but still not foolproof. I know they wanted to do everything they could to encourage people to get the shot, but in the long run it was probably a mistake to let people think that vaccine = total free-for-all in any conditions.
> 
> It's like the people who make body armor and armored glass will tell you: The term is "bullet-*resistant*" NOT "bullet-*proof*". That vest *should* stop the rounds it's rated for, but if it's hit with a big enough round, or enough repeated hits, you'll still be in trouble.


Here's how I look at it. The vaccine alone was never advertised as being able to stop the pandemic. Even before delta I think they said you needed 60% to 70% vaccinated to reach herd immunity. Given the anti-vax movement getting to even that number was in doubt. Now along comes delta. The experts are saying we may need over 90% to reach herd immunity, unless we give a booster which is as effective against delta as the original vaccine was against the original strain. So even best case, relying on vaccinations alone to end this won't cut it.

However, let's look at R0. Vaccines decrease R0. So do masks and social distancing and lock downs. A vaccine in combination with some or all of these measures can end the pandemic. Get R0 under 1, and keep the measures in place until the disease is no longer circulating in the wild. Relax the measures slowly, be prepared to re-implement them in places where flare-ups happen. And hope no new vaccine-resistant variants pop up. It may well be that with delta the virus is out of tricks. That means a booster targeted at delta, plus other measures, could eventually end this.

You're right. We did relax things too soon. For the third time. You would think we would have learned by now.


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## GoVegan (Aug 15, 2021)

turbodog said:


> Maybe some weird, atypical, food allergy. Case in point, I'm allergic to chicken. But no problems with typical stuff: shellfish, peanuts, milk, etc.
> 
> Having been around chickens being grown... I'm not missing them much.


In both cases I'm certain is was down to the dairy, as dairy asthma link is well documented these days.

Although, not an allergy, as we had both had blood tests, including for everything, dust, wheat, dairy, animals, nuts etc, about 25 different alergens as far as I recall.


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## raggie33 (Aug 15, 2021)

off topic can you out grow alergies? as a kid i was alergic to a bunch of stuff i forget what most of them where but i fo recall milk and i drink it a lot


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## knucklegary (Aug 15, 2021)

GoVegan, how do you get your protein


GoVegan said:


> FYI I used to have bad asthma, but have never had any symptoms for the past 18 years after going vegan. A good friend of mine too had it really bad, was on medication for years and I saw for myself their condition after running just 30 meters. After 6 months on a vegan diet they were running 5km in under 35 mins, that was about 12 years ago, and still vegan and off the medication to this day (in fact they have never been sick with even a cold in 12 years! That's





raggie33 said:


> off topic can you out grow alergies? as a kid i was alergic to a bunch of stuff i forget what most of them where but i fo recall milk and i drink it a lot


Raggie, have you tried almond milk? I get the unsweetened because it's naturally sweet enough as is.. Animal milk makes me asthmatic since a little tyke and still does now as adult


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## raggie33 (Aug 15, 2021)

knucklegary said:


> GoVegan, how do you get your protein
> 
> 
> 
> Raggie, have you tried almond milk? I get the unsweetened because it's naturally sweet enough as is.. Animal milk makes me asthmatic since a little tyke and still does now as adult


im weird about trying new stuff unless its free. since i live on a budget. but i did try healthy choice soup becuase i miss read label. it was awful lol


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## mjlamb (Aug 16, 2021)

I have a question for the vaccine experts. How exactly do they create a new vaccine that "targets" the delta strain?


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## idleprocess (Aug 16, 2021)

mjlamb said:


> I have a question for the vaccine experts. How exactly do they create a new vaccine that "targets" the delta strain?


Hardly a _vaccine expert_, but based on my _(limited, casual)_ knowledge of the subject I'm not sure how a vaccine can 'target' the delta strain specifically.

I gather that the mRNA vaccines (Pfizer, Moderna) work on alpha, delta, (whatever variant) because they stimulate an immune system response to the spike protein that's *fundamental* to the virus. The virus's spike protein binds to a receptor on cell membranes then _Bob's your Uncle_ and the virus hijacks the cell's DNA replication equipment to make more copies of itself. If the virus undergoes a mutation that significantly changes the spike protein then it's _basically a different virus_ that's apt to be nonviable unless it happens to align with another receptor that it both can attach to and has a vector to reach.

Delta is more contagious than other variants, seemingly because it makes more copies of itself. Since vaccines stimulate an immune system response, there are only so many defenders to go around, and more viral particles means a higher potential for success getting past the first layers of defenses (this article describes the body's viral defenses).

Absolutely spitballing here, but perhaps the interferon response can be boosted to counter delta since I gather the mRNA vaccines already trigger the production of _heaps_ of antibodies.


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## turbodog (Aug 16, 2021)

mjlamb said:


> I have a question for the vaccine experts. How exactly do they create a new vaccine that "targets" the delta strain?



Sequence the delta variant. Make new mrna version that targets numerous critical areas on the spike.

But current mrna pfizer/moderna is still 90% effective against it... and we've got MUCH more low hanging fruit to harvest.

One of the hospitals in my 'circle' is preparing to activate their mass casualty protocol and ethics protocol (to decide who gets treatment and who does not).


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## xxo (Aug 16, 2021)

The more people get vaccinated the more vaccine resistant strains will be created and spread until the vaccines no longer protect the people who really need a vaccine. Which is why the vaccines should be targeted to the elderly and the immune suppressed and we should seek out better treatments and prophylactics for everyone else.


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## Empath (Aug 16, 2021)

xxo said:


> The more people get vaccinated the more vaccine resistant strains will be created......


No; for that to be, the virus would need to act purposefully. In order to do that the virus would need to have intelligence and be alive; which it is neither.

The variants are the results of the proverbial monkeys at a keyboard eventually typing out every written literary work. For that it needs time. The vaccine deprives the virus of the time it needs to blindly go through all the random variations.


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## raggie33 (Aug 16, 2021)

all i know is i rely on doctors and the cdc to tell me medical stuff not random people on the internet. ps this is not dirrected at anyone i love you all. well at least like lol


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## xxo (Aug 16, 2021)

Empath said:


> No; for that to be, the virus would need to act purposefully. In order to do that the virus would need to have intelligence and be alive; which it is neither.
> 
> The variants are the results of the proverbial monkeys at a keyboard eventually typing out every written literary work. For that it needs time. The vaccine deprives the virus of the time it needs to blindly go through all the random variations.


No, not at all, it is natural selection. Create an environment that favors vaccine resistance and the vaccine resistant virus will survive and replicate. Same thing happens with antibiotics when they are over prescribed and the bacteria becomes resistant and eventually the antibiotic stops working.


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## bykfixer (Aug 16, 2021)

So once upon a time a vaccine was used so that people did not get said germ, disease or what-have you. Nor could they spread it.
The so-called vaccine for covid is not much different than a treatment. It does not prevent one from catching the virus, nor does it stop someone from spreading it. It simply reduces the awful reactions the body causes in some people. So those people do not suffer greatly or die from it.

The experts that now say "mask up again" told us a long time ago this shot does not halt the spread. They told us exactly what it does do. Yet somehow folks have been led to believe it is a cure for this novel virus if only everybody on planet earth gets one. It's not much different than a flu "shot" or a pnuemonia "shot". It protects the receiver from potentially dieing from a previous strain of it. It is NOT a cure.

Those experts thought that by now between herd immunity and the treatments including the shot, that the rate of dreadfully ill or deaths would wane enough to go back to normal. Figuring the conventional way a virus acts, mutations would become weaker, but they knew there would be variations. They also knew based on history that chances were good the variations could begin to affect the groups who had previously never had any issues. Much of that was drowned out by talking heads trying to pit their side against the other side, be it left or right. The statements were taken out of context or simply ignored based on what impression those people wanted to present as fact. And all those charts & graphs just made for good theatre along the way. 

Much of the technology we have to fight this thing came from trying to treat the virus that causes AIDS. Notice I said treat, not cure. They have managed to create things that means the HIV is no longer an automatic death sentence. And this same technology can ensure the novel corona is not an automatic death sentence for the group(s) that a year ago would likely suffer greatly or die. Now there are "pills" for HIV and someday there will be pills that target a corona virus too.

Viruses are like roaches and alligators. They survive despite man's best efforts.


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## turbodog (Aug 16, 2021)

Point of clarification... currently the vaccine is preventing infection in the large majority of vaccinated individuals. Yes, there are breakthrough infections, but they are just that, breakthrough, not walk through the front door.

Another difficulty we deal with is that things are moving (infection, mutation, treatment protocols, etc) are moving at light speed relative to what healthcare is used to moving at. Gathering, parsing, and disseminating the data is a major job, an important job. This is part of the problem with the information being presented. It is incomplete and changes before you can do a proper analysis on it. Then people take part(s) of it out of context.

Meanwhile, the virus doesn't care about our bickering... it just goes on infecting, killing, crippling, and wreaking havoc on the economy.

Edit: To expand on paragraph #1. Initial data, for a long time, said vaccinated were immune to infection. Then, we started seeing breakthrough infections. The current 'jump to conclusion' is that vaccinated are just as able to be infected as non-vaccinated. The _data_ is showing a different picture though... one in which vaccination still provides about 80% effectiveness against infection and higher than that against serious problems.


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## nbp (Aug 16, 2021)

xxo said:


> No, not at all, it is natural selection. Create an environment that favors vaccine resistance and the vaccine resistant virus will survive and replicate. Same thing happens with antibiotics when they are over prescribed and the bacteria becomes resistant and eventually the antibiotic stops working.


Except that unlike bacteria, viruses are not living things, and do not decide anything. The mutations are the result of errors in the replication of their genetic material. Errors happen all the time when millions of copies are made; they happen in us too. There are tools your body uses to find them and cut out those errors in your DNA. In the viruses most of the mutations either do nothing exciting, or they make the the virus unable to do what it does rendering it harmless. Occasionally the mutation in the genetic material will make it different in a way that makes the virus more nefarious in some way. Cue Delta. It isn't "adapting" to the vaccines; it is just freak chance that Delta mutation was worse for us. There were probably thousands of variants of this virus that varied in a way that is unnoticeable or caused that genetic material to just fail to replicate or infect people and it ceases to exist. 

Also, as was pointed out, the vaccines target the point at which this virus is able to attach to your cells, the spike protein. This is what your body is creating a response to. If the virus mutates in such a way that that spike protein is so different that your vaccine induced antibodies cannot recognize it, it probably is also too different to be able to attach to the specific receptor it needs to in order to infect you. In this case it would be like the many millions upon millions of viruses that you encounter during your life that are not at all dangerous. In order to be a concern to us, a virus needs to be both able to enter a particular human cell intact, and needs to be able to actually have the hardware to hijack that cell and replicate. Only the tiniest fraction of viruses on earth can do both of these things in humans. And any significant changes in the structure or genetic material of a virus that would prevent one or both of those things from being possible renders the virus not a threat. So it is not as easy as you might think for this virus to just change willy-nilly to adapt to the vaccines.


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## raggie33 (Aug 16, 2021)

btw the movies that scare me the most involve these mutations . i admit i see one of them movie plots coming true. ps im also terified of the inbred redneck movies. the hills have eyes was so damn scary


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## raggie33 (Aug 16, 2021)




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## Poppy (Aug 16, 2021)

xxo said:


> No, not at all, it is natural selection. Create an environment that favors vaccine resistance and the vaccine resistant virus will survive and replicate. Same thing happens with antibiotics when they are over prescribed and the bacteria becomes resistant and eventually the antibiotic stops working.


Sorry, this is just wrong.
Please speak with your doctor about this line of thought, and I am sure he will explain it to you.

Also, you may look at the response that nbp wrote. IMO it is a good explanation.
Cheers.


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## xxo (Aug 16, 2021)

Poppy said:


> Sorry, this is just wrong.
> Please speak with your doctor about this line of thought, and I am sure he will explain it to you.
> 
> Also, you may look at the response that nbp wrote. IMO it is a good explanation.
> Cheers.


 Cheers Poppy, glad to see that you have rejoined the conversation.


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## turbodog (Aug 17, 2021)

For a good dose of reality... some of you live in red states, some blue.

I compared MS new infection stats with a random blue state, PA.

We are 35% vaxxed, they are 53% vaxxed. We are on fire and are pouring gasoline upon ourselves. PA is cool as a cucumber.

*Being vaccinated is really the only option where your healthcare system doesn't collapse. If there is another... please tell me.*

Keep an eye on us... gonna be bad.

https://mississippitoday.org/
https://www.clarionledger.com/


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## GoVegan (Aug 17, 2021)

turbodog said:


> *Being vaccinated is really the only option where your healthcare system doesn't collapse. If there is another... please tell me.*



OK, well the other option where the healthcare system doesn't collapse, is for everyone to switch to a healthy vegan diet. Sadly however that would be far too hard for many people to comprehend and they'd rather continue dying.

It was clear from early on in the pandemic, that the people that are getting seriously sick and dying are mainly people with pre-existing conditions such as diabetes, high-cholesterol, high blood pressure, asthma etc, all of which can be reversed and cured on a healthy low fat plant based diet.
(I'll be happy to back these claims up if anyone PMs me, or if anyone wants serious info here rather than just trying to bait).

For instance, those with Type 2 diabetes (the most common type), if they switched to a low fat vegan diet would enable most to come off of all medication within a couple of months.

I'm speaking from experience too, I used to be the sickest person you could imagine. Now I don't even catch a cold any more (and in case you are wondering, no I don't take vaccinations either).


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## turbodog (Aug 17, 2021)

GoVegan said:


> OK, well the other option where the healthcare system doesn't collapse, is for everyone to switch to a healthy vegan diet. Sadly however that would be far too hard for many people to comprehend and they'd rather continue dying.


We need a realistic option. There's not enough vegan food available to feed the entire state/US/world. It's just that simple.

And the economic fallout from the entire US switching overnight to a new type/brand/source of food would crash the economy.

So... efficacy and realism are needed.


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## nbp (Aug 17, 2021)

It’s primarily been old people dying so unless your diet can also make 80 year olds 20 again, I’m afraid it isn’t the panacea you’re looking for. And while I don’t think anyone would argue that people don’t need to eat healthier and take better care of themselves than they currently do, it takes quite a bit of time for people to get significantly healthier after making lifestyle changes, so perhaps they ought to get their vax in the meantime so they stay alive long enough to try your fancy diet. Seems reasonable hey?


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## GoVegan (Aug 17, 2021)

turbodog said:


> We need a realistic option. There's not enough vegan food available to feed the entire state/US/world. It's just that simple.


LOL do you realize what you just wrote?
In fact most land in the US and the whole world is used for animal agriculture. I would understand anyone now knowing this say 20 years ago, even 5... maybe, but it is well publicized these days. In news articles all the time, same with all the documentaries.









If the world adopted a plant-based diet we would reduce global agricultural land use from 4 to 1 billion hectares


If everyone shifted to a plant-based diet we would reduce global land use for agriculture by 75%. This large reduction of agricultural land use would be possible thanks to a reduction in land used for grazing and a smaller need for land to grow crops.




ourworldindata.org





Just to be clear here, I'm talking about vegetables and fruit, mainly, not processed vegan bugers and hot dogs etc, although production of processed vegan food could be ramped up of course if there was more demand.


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## xxo (Aug 17, 2021)

GoVegan said:


> OK, well the other option where the healthcare system doesn't collapse, is for everyone to switch to a healthy vegan diet. Sadly however that would be far too hard for many people to comprehend and they'd rather continue dying.
> 
> It was clear from early on in the pandemic, that the people that are getting seriously sick and dying are mainly people with pre-existing conditions such as diabetes, high-cholesterol, high blood pressure, asthma etc, all of which can be reversed and cured on a healthy low fat plant based diet.
> (I'll be happy to back these claims up if anyone PMs me, or if anyone wants serious info here rather than just trying to bait).
> ...


 
I'm not down with a vegan diet myself, but I am glad that you found something that works for you. Unfortunately, I had to learn the hard way about poor diet but have found something that works for me that I can live with, though I'm sure it could be better.

Same with vaccines, I think I was about as pro vaccine as could be and I have probably had just about every vaccine available at one time or another, or at least it seems that way. After all of the lies about the covid vaccines, I would never take another vaccine without researching it first, but I am still pro vaccine for the most part - I just don't believe in forcing vaccines on people against their will.


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## GoVegan (Aug 17, 2021)

nbp said:


> It’s primarily been old people dying so unless your diet can also make 80 year olds 20 again, I’m afraid it isn’t the panacea you’re looking for. And while I don’t think anyone would argue that people don’t need to eat healthier and take better care of themselves than they currently do, it takes quite a bit of time for people to get significantly healthier after making lifestyle changes, so perhaps they ought to get their vax in the meantime so they stay alive long enough to try your fancy diet. Seems reasonable hey?



Well the pressing need for older people to switch to a low fat plant based diet has always been there, even before the pandemic. The biggest killer in the 1st world has always been heart disease, which can not only be stopped but reversed by diet.
Cholesterol is what has been killing people especially the old, doctors know this, I've even heard on medical podcasts that doctors realize that a low fat vegan diet could save their patients but they don't even recommend it to people as they think people won't stick to it, so instead they recommend the surgery. Crazy!

Dr Ornish's research has shown, that there has never been any documented cases of heart disease in anyone with a Total Cholesterol of under 150, mine was about 138 AFAIR on my last checkup last year. So at least I won't be dying as my grand parents and other family members died (all heart attacks).

Anyway speaking as someone who used to regularly eat 4 Big Macs for lunch many years ago, I can tell you if I can do it anyone can.

BTW I've never though of my diet being "fancy". 
Honestly sometimes I just eat fruit for a single meal, nothing fancy about that.

Actually I kind of feel bad for thinking this way, but I'm in two minds to even discuss a vegan diet as an option for people, as that would potentially be a eye opener for some, and while it would be nice if I can help educate people, I also beleive that there are far too many people on this planet, so better to let nature take it's course. Less people = a healthier planet.


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## turbodog (Aug 17, 2021)

GoVegan said:


> LOL do you realize what you just wrote?
> ...



You're not getting it. Can you deliver than in the next 30 days, maximum? 2-3 days preferable.


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## GoVegan (Aug 17, 2021)

turbodog said:


> You're not getting it. Can you deliver than in the next 30 days, maximum? 2-3 days preferable.


1. Fruit and vegetables are not in short supply. So yes, possible to get delivered to anyone and everyone, everyday.
2. It's hypothetical that everyone would switch to a vegan diet over night, even if Biden stood up on TV and told everyone to do so (you'd have a least 38.6% of the country then doing the opposite haha). Anyway if there is demand, food companies and store will switch production lines and supply chains, so yes again. Some jobs would be lost, others jobs would be created, same with any change.
3. You'd be surprised how much of the food already available in every store (large and small nation wide), is already vegan, although that doesn't necessarily mean it's healthy too. For instance just because Ben and jerry's have about 20 different vegan ice cream flavors, it isn't exactly a health food (although way more healthy that the dairy ones of course).


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## turbodog (Aug 17, 2021)

And again, efficacy and realism are needed. 

And if these miracle veggies appeared... would people's health problems also disappear overnight?

If not, then I guess we are back to vaccines.


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## GoVegan (Aug 17, 2021)

turbodog said:


> And again, efficacy and realism are needed.
> 
> And if these miracle veggies appeared... would people's health problems also disappear overnight?
> 
> If not, then I guess we are back to vaccines.


Well not just veggies, but grains/rice, legumes/beans, seeds/nuts etc. that are already on shelves.
As for people's health, not exactly overnight, but within weeks people would see huge health benefits, and within 2 months most could be off of diabetes medication, and a couple more most could be off of their cholesterol lowering medication, obesity rates would instantaneously start to drop too.
[EDIT: actually even overnight people would see benefits, as I was just thinking about the documentary Game Changers (on Netflix etc, about the benefits of a vegan diet for athletes, well worth watching!!), people's cholesteral levels droped over night after eating a plant based diet.]

I'd say realism is coming to terms with the fact that the US along with many other countries have a high percentage of the population that are extremely unhealthy, and sadly most of these people have chosen to be this way through their own dietary and lifestyle choices (although public education or lack of is as much to blame).

However it doesn't have to be this way, the best time to switch to a plant based diet would have been yesterday, the second best time is today. 

I think it all has to start first with people doing their own research into the matter, as understanding the benefits is key. Fortunately it isn't hard these days, there is lots of scientific evidence proving that vegans live longer and healthier lives, and even research from The BMJ proving that vegans are way less likely to get sick from Covid (which was obvious to me from Jan 2020 even to be honest).

[2nd Edit: Like I said I'll back all these claims with links to factual information for any of the things I mention here, just PM me, as I wouldn't want to Spam the forum here, come to think of it nor do I actually care that much lol].


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## turbodog (Aug 17, 2021)

Dude, give it up. In case you missed it (yup), my original question was rhetorical.


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## mjlamb (Aug 17, 2021)




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## jtr1962 (Aug 17, 2021)

I got as far as the "smiling faces not covered with unnecessary cloth that does nothing".


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## xxo (Aug 17, 2021)

Vaccinating without covid testing is criminal - giving a vaccine to someone who has covid can trigger a cytokine storm, the hyper immune response that often causes death.


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## mjlamb (Aug 17, 2021)

I listen to the doctors too....


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## mjlamb (Aug 17, 2021)

xxo said:


> Vaccinating without covid testing is criminal - giving a vaccine to someone who has covid can trigger a cytokine storm, the hyper immune response that often causes death.



Not only could it be potentially dangerous, there is no need to. If you have been infected with Sars-Cov2 you will have a better immune response than the mRNA treatment, possibly for lifetime. No boosters needed! 

*SARS-CoV-2 infection induces long-lived bone marrow plasma cells in humans*








SARS-CoV-2 infection induces long-lived bone marrow plasma cells in humans - Nature


SARS-CoV-2 infection induces long-lived bone marrow plasma cells that correlate with anti-SARS-CoV-2 spike protein antibody titres in individuals who have recovered from COVID-19.




www.nature.com





*Lasting immunity found after recovery from COVID-19*








Lasting immunity found after recovery from COVID-19


The immune systems of more than 95% of people who recovered from COVID-19 had durable memories of the virus up to eight months after infection.




www.nih.gov





*Substantial immune memory is generated after COVID-19, involving all four major types of immune memory.*​




__





Science | AAAS







science.sciencemag.org





Had COVID? You’ll probably make antibodies for a lifetime​








Had COVID? You’ll probably make antibodies for a lifetime


People who recover from mild COVID-19 have bone-marrow cells that can churn out antibodies for decades, although viral variants could dampen some of the protection they offer.




www.nature.com


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## xxo (Aug 17, 2021)

Former pfizer VP Dr. Yeadon on covid lies -



If you are running an ad blocker, click this link


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## PhotonWrangler (Aug 18, 2021)

I stopped listening as soon as he said that masks don't work.


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## mjlamb (Aug 18, 2021)

PhotonWrangler said:


> I stopped listening as soon as he said that masks don't work.


He said cloth masks don't work. They don't.


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## raggie33 (Aug 18, 2021)

its very bad in my town there is zero hospital beds! they just leave the patients in ambulance .treat them in ambulance


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## idleprocess (Aug 19, 2021)

PhotonWrangler said:


> I stopped listening as soon as he said that masks don't work.


Doctor Yeadon has been making some improbable claims.


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## turbodog (Aug 19, 2021)

raggie33 said:


> its very bad in my town there is zero hospital beds! they just leave the patients in ambulance .treat them in ambulance



Yes. Be careful dude. You and both live in the south, and unless something changes a lot... things are gonna get rough.


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## raggie33 (Aug 19, 2021)

my new mask not sure why but folks are giving me my 6 feet for once https://photos.app.goo.gl/NvbAnRbP2bksw2CL8


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## raggie33 (Aug 19, 2021)

turbodog said:


> Yes. Be careful dude. You and both live in the south, and unless something changes a lot... things are gonna get rough.


its crazy here


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## mjlamb (Aug 19, 2021)

Top 5 deadliest states concerning Covid 19.

#1 New Jersey, #2 New York, #3 Mississippi, #4 Massachusetts, #5 Rhode Island. 

Keep in mind this not totals but per capita.

I think we can all agree four of the top five had very tight lockdowns, mask mandates, and likely a much higher vaccination rate. 

My poor uneducated, unsophisticated, knuckle dragging state of Missouri ranks 29th. We had no statewide lockdown or mask mandate. Some counties and cities locked down and mandated masks. My particular county, Jefferson, has had no lockdowns or mask mandates and believe me, nobody wears the masks.. When St. Louis City and County shut down all the restaurants those folks flocked to shop and eat in our county as we butt up to St .Louis. We've had a little more than two hundred total deaths in a year and half. 

Even with all the "super spreaders" at Lake of the Ozarks on national news we managed to do something right....

I know, we're just fly over country...


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## jtr1962 (Aug 19, 2021)

You're comparing apples and oranges. The East Coast was hit first and hit hard. We had a bunch of things working against us. No real treatments at the time, much higher population density, an influx of travelers from overseas. It hit us so hard we needed a lock down to get things under control. As it was, NYC had over 25,000 deaths in the first wave. Without the steps we took to slow it down, that number easily would have been a quarter million. Covid didn't really start hitting the rest of the country until mid summer last year. By then we had some treatments.

Look at how the northeast has fared since that first wave in spring 2020 compared to the rest of the country. You're bragging about being #29 but let's look at the difference in per capita death rates. NJ is 3010 per million people. Missouri is 1757 per million people. That's about 40% less. This is despite being hit later when we had more treatments. It's also despite having a MUCH lower population density which should have greatly worked to your advantage. But the bottom line is there aren't huge differences amount US states at this point compared to the rest of the world. New Hampshire is #44 at 1027 deaths per million people. That's only 1/3 the death rate of the worst state. The US overall was 1926 (20th worst in the world out of over 220 countries). Let's look at some figures for the rest of the world:

Deaths per 1 million persons:
Canada: 703
Finland: 182
Japan: 123
Australia: 85
Vietnam: 73
South Korea : 43
Hong Kong: 28
Singapore: 8
New Zealand: 5
China: 3 (I take this number with a huge grain of salt)
Tanzania: 0.8

The country which did the worst so far was Peru at 5902. More than 3 orders of magnitude difference from worst to first. Same disease everywhere. Maybe masks, lock downs, and vaccinations really do make a difference. Bragging that your state was somewhere in the middle of the pack in a country which handled the pandemic horribly by any objective measure is like putting lipstick on a pig. Even more so when you consider that being hit later, combined with a lower population density, were already working in your favor. If you took similar measures as the northeast states did your state probably would have had a death rate of 100 or 200, not 1757. Your lax attitude easily resulted in 10 times as many deaths. Delta isn't done with us, either. The deaths are still ticking up fastest in the states which are refusing to adopt measures recommended by experts.


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## Poppy (Aug 19, 2021)

This was reported August 17, 2021



> CDC information shows Louisiana has the worst seven-day COVID-19 death rate with six deaths per 100,000 residents, followed by Arkansas (5.5 deaths per capita); Nevada (4.3 deaths per capita); and Missouri (3.3 deaths per capita).
> 
> The delta variant began ravaging Missouri in June, causing a big rise in cases, hospitalizations and deaths. Experts lay much of the blame on Missouri’s low vaccination rate. The CDC says 50.2% of Missourians have initiated vaccination, compared to 59.8% of all Americans.











Missouri’s COVID death rate among nation’s worst


Only three states — Louisiana, Arkansas and Nevada — have higher rates, according to the CDC.




www.stltoday.com


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## Poppy (Aug 19, 2021)

mjlamb,
As jtr1962 stated you are comparing apples to oranges, and he makes many points.

The population density in Hudson County NJ is 15,000 per square mile
The density in NJ overall is 1,200 per square mile
The density in Missouri is a mere 89 pre square mile.

In comparison to Missouri, all of New Jersey is a continual super spreader event.


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## raggie33 (Aug 19, 2021)

yep your all better with words then me but that is what i wanted to say


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## mjlamb (Aug 19, 2021)

According to the CDC 99.9% of those 65+ in Hawaii have been vaccinated. Also, according to the state of Hawaii, cases for those 65+ in Hawaii are at an all-time record and growing "exponentially". Must be the 0.1% ruining it for everyone.


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## raggie33 (Aug 19, 2021)

mjlamb said:


> According to the CDC 99.9% of those 65+ in Hawaii have been vaccinated. Also, according to the state of Hawaii, cases for those 65+ in Hawaii are at an all-time record and growing "exponentially". Must be the 0.1% ruining it for everyone.


post a link not just a jleg. i can post a jpeg that im.miss america. but that dont make it true


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## boo5ted (Aug 19, 2021)

raggie33 said:


> post a link not just a jleg. i can post a jpeg that im.miss america. but that dont make it true




You've got my vote for Miss America, just sayin'. 😘


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## mjlamb (Aug 19, 2021)

I'm one of the few folks that post links in this thread. I'm not interested in fact checkers or what the news says, they lie. Let's see some links to studies, medical journal articles, doctor interviews with some findings. etc.


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## mjlamb (Aug 19, 2021)

Poppy said:


> This was reported August 17, 2021
> 
> 
> 
> ...


And yet still ranked 29th as of today in overall in per Capita covid deaths.


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## Poppy (Aug 19, 2021)

current information is more important than historical info. IMO. 
The states that you mentioned were hit hard early on when there was NO treatment. Therefore that slants their numbers negatively, when you include numbers from the beginning of time. More than a year later, look at the numbers, for the last few months. The North Eastern states are doing better than your state. That is despite the fact that their population has a density ten times yours.

I don't know... what are you trying to prove? Masks and vaccines are a ruse?


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## turbodog (Aug 19, 2021)

You can waste tons of time looking at the input side of equation, or you can take the aggregate of all that by looking at current stats compared to prior time, other states, and other countries.

We are preparing for the collapse of MS hospital system.

The real question is... although blue (or better vaccinated) states aren't climbing as quickly as TX, LA, MS, AL, FL... will they eventually rise to unsustainable levels also, just not as quickly as we have? My bet is 75% yes.


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## raggie33 (Aug 20, 2021)

o boy are governor is out of his damn mind im in georgia i worked to get stacey ellected but i guess i was out of luck


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## mjlamb (Aug 20, 2021)

raggie33 said:


> o boy are governor is out of his damn mind im in georgia i worked to get stacey ellected but i guess i was out of luck


Wow!


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## jtr1962 (Aug 20, 2021)

Poppy said:


> I don't know... what are you trying to prove? Masks and vaccines are a ruse?


That pretty much seems to be his/her only purpose for posting here. One flashlight-related post, the rest in this thread.


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## jtr1962 (Aug 20, 2021)

turbodog said:


> The real question is... although blue (or better vaccinated) states aren't climbing as quickly as TX, LA, MS, AL, FL... will they eventually rise to unsustainable levels also, just not as quickly as we have? My bet is 75% yes.


The positive test numbers have leveled off in NYC after rising from 0.5% to 4%:





__





COVID-19: Latest Data - NYC Health






www1.nyc.gov





Of course, school hasn't started yet. I'm predicting another bump, and then we go back to remote learning because in-person school is untenable. Then the numbers start back down. A lot of the vaccine holdouts also seem to be getting vaccinated. Hopefully things won't get out of control here.


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## mjlamb (Aug 20, 2021)




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## turbodog (Aug 20, 2021)

jtr1962 said:


> That pretty much seems to be his/her only purpose for posting here. One flashlight-related post, the rest in this thread.



Yup. I still smell a rat.

Highly improbable and coincidental that a zero-post person just happens to show up in probably the most highly-contentious thread on the platform.

Historically, this action tends to be a secondary account by an existing member.

We didn't even get a 'hi everyone' intro post.


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## mjlamb (Aug 20, 2021)

turbodog said:


> Yup. I still smell a rat.


What is your definition of a rat?


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## bykfixer (Aug 20, 2021)

turbodog said:


> Yup. I still smell a rat.
> 
> Highly improbable and coincidental that a zero-post person just happens to show up in probably the most highly-contentious thread on the platform.
> 
> ...


Why does that matter?


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## raggie33 (Aug 20, 2021)

rats are one of my fav pets some are so smart smarter then many dog breeds .


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## raggie33 (Aug 20, 2021)

btw the light at the end of the tunnel is a train. we are so screwed . .


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## Chauncey Gardiner (Aug 20, 2021)

turbodog said:


> Yup. I still smell a rat.
> 
> Highly improbable and coincidental that a zero-post person just happens to show up in probably the most highly-contentious thread on the platform.
> 
> ...


Your continuing to cast aspersions is bad form. Post reported.


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## mjlamb (Aug 20, 2021)

turbodog said:


> Yup. I still smell a rat.
> 
> Highly improbable and coincidental that a zero-post person just happens to show up in probably the most highly-contentious thread on the platform.
> 
> ...


Post history is important for sure. While you speculate about me due to my lack of one... Yours is extensive and telling.


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## jtr1962 (Aug 20, 2021)

bykfixer said:


> Why does that matter?


It normally wouldn't if the person in question (actually two people, mjlamb and xxo, although I suspect this might be the same person posting under two accounts) wasn't posting easily disproven conspiracy theories. Moreover, posting stuff like this has already unnecessarily cost the lives of people who actually believe it. There are plenty of other places to post this kind of garbage. Most are echo chambers where you won't even get people disagreeing with you.

The rest of us here are open to discussing things like vaccines being less effective against the delta variant, or maybe that some masks work better than others. But when the tone is "no masks, no vaccines, no distancing, no restrictions" because "freedom", you just lost any credibility. Why is there three orders of magnitude difference in death rates between countries which handled this the worst versus the best? Maybe these measures actually are effective? If not, death rates might be similar everywhere, or at least within the same order of magnitude.


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## raggie33 (Aug 20, 2021)

this is a rough subject but i know all the posters in this thread are good humans. we all love lights. its just a crazy subject


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## Empath (Aug 20, 2021)

There is a point that the participants of a thread become the subject of the thread, rather than the intended topic If the thread becomes a negative portrayal of others, it loses it's value.

As usual, you may still discuss this in the Underground. It's closed here.


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