# AA Ragone Plot



## Battery Guy (Jun 5, 2010)

Greetings Everyone,

If you are unfamiliar with Ragone Plots, you may want to read this thread.

Here is the AA Ragone plot with the most recent data.







I will continue to update this plot as I get more data. 

Hope you find it useful.

Cheers,
Battery Guy


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## purduephotog (Jun 5, 2010)

VRML java applet and 3D... or maybe some JPS graphs  With the prevalence of stereo options coming up, this might just be a viable option now.

Or even... point clouds for display? Hrmmm. I wonder if there is a cheap player that works with standard stereo displays (such as the samsung/lg 120hz and nvidia glasses)


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## Battery Guy (Jun 5, 2010)

purduephotog said:


> VRML java applet and 3D... or maybe some JPS graphs  With the prevalence of stereo options coming up, this might just be a viable option now.
> 
> Or even... point clouds for display? Hrmmm. I wonder if there is a cheap player that works with standard stereo displays (such as the samsung/lg 120hz and nvidia glasses)




Huh??? Sorry, but I don't know wtf you just said.

Cheers,
Battery Guy


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## core (Jun 5, 2010)

purduephotog said:


> Or even... point clouds for display? Hrmmm. I wonder if there is a cheap player that works with standard stereo displays (such as the samsung/lg 120hz and nvidia glasses)



Puff puff give, man!

But seriously, I was going to suggest some kind of interactivity with the other one. But with the new dashed lines it's much easier to follow and thus being able to turn off unneeded plots is no longer needed.


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## MichaelW (Jun 5, 2010)

Wow, that Energizer Lithium marketing line of '4x' and '8x' makes sense, if you are drawing 2 watts from each cell.

What flashlight application draws 2 watts from each cell?
I don't think that the Fenix TK40 on turbo does.


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## HKJ (Jun 5, 2010)

MichaelW said:


> Wow, that Energizer Lithium marketing line of '4x' and '8x' makes sense, if you are drawing 2 watts from each cell.
> 
> What flashlight application draws 2 watts from each cell?
> I don't think that the Fenix TK40 on turbo does.



I have single AAA light that draws 2 watt from a cell, it is not that uncommon.


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## MichaelW (Jun 5, 2010)

Yes, but is that a 10440? :laughing:

The TK45 isn't even 1.5 watts per cell on turbo


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## Battery Guy (Jun 5, 2010)

A couple of things to note:

1.) I tested the Duracell LSD 2000mAh "made in Japan" cells (aka Duraloops), and the performance was right smack on top of the Eneloops. Therefore, I left the Duraloops off of this plot in an attempt to try to keep things simple.

2.) Take a look at the AW lithium-ion AA with and without the protection circuit. That circuit really kills the rate capability of that cell.

3.) I will finish up the high rate part of the Sanyo 2500 and 2700 cells, then test the Elite 1700 NiMH and the Panasonic Evolta alkaline. After that I will probably move on to filling out the 18650 Ragone Plot.

4.) If you have been following the previous thread, you might notice that I removed the Energizer 2450 mAh NiMH cell from the plot. The reason is that this data was collected about six months ago and I did not use the same charging protocol that I used on all of the other NiMH cells shown here (C/10 for 16 hours followed by a 1 hour rest before discharge). 

Cheers,
Battery Guy


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## 45/70 (Jun 5, 2010)

MichaelW said:


> Yes, but is that a 10440? :laughing:



Lights like the various LF2 versions and the Extreme III pull close to 2 Amp from a NiMH AAA on high. 2x1.2=2.2 Watts. With a 10440 it is, of course, about a third of the current and there are little or no efficiency losses due to boost circuit efficiency, but they still draw around 2 Watts, or better.

*EDIT:* BG, looking forward to the Elite 1700 plot. Those cells may not last too many cycles under the conditions they're usually used in, but they are truly "Heavy Duty". 

Dave


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## Mr Happy (Jun 5, 2010)

45/70 said:


> Lights like the various LF2 versions and the Extreme III pull close to 2 Amp from a NiMH AAA on high. 2x1.2=2.2 Watts.


It surprises me that you can pull 2 amps from an AAA rechargeable cell, especially while maintaining 1.2 V. I do not recall being able to get that kind of performance out of them.


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## 45/70 (Jun 5, 2010)

Mr Happy said:


> It surprises me that you can pull 2 amps from an AAA rechargeable cell, especially while maintaining 1.2 V. I do not recall being able to get that kind of performance out of them.



Yeah eneloop AAA's are about the only cells that really hold up to the task. I tried some Sanyo 1000 AAA's, and they were OK, barely.

A couple things about these lights. They both have excellent drivers, particularly ARC mania's Extreme III, that boost very effectively. Also, in these little tiny lights, I anyway, don't run them for very long at max output, usually for 10-15 seconds and about a minute max, as they get _really_ hot. This helps the AAA eneloop survive.  And with basically an infinitely variable output from 1-100%, I don't really need to run them at maximum output all that much.

Dave


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## LED_Thrift (Jun 12, 2010)

WOW ! 
Thanks for all the work that went into getting and presenting this great info. I read the original thread so I could understand the graph better.
I'm a big fan of Eneloops & Duraloops [and even Hybrids for that matter] and it's good to see how they stack up to other cell chemistries. The NiZn cells also seem to have great performance, I had never seen them. Does anyone know their self-discharge characteristics?


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## Battery Guy (Jun 12, 2010)

LED_Thrift said:


> WOW !
> Thanks for all the work that went into getting and presenting this great info. I read the original thread so I could understand the graph better.



I am really glad that you find value in it. I find that a properly constructed Ragone plot is a fantastic tool.



LED_Thrift said:


> I'm a big fan of Eneloops & Duraloops [and even Hybrids for that matter] and it's good to see how they stack up to other cell chemistries. The NiZn cells also seem to have great performance, I had never seen them. Does anyone know their self-discharge characteristics?



The self-discharge rate of the PowerGenix AA NiZn cells is 8% per month according to the packaging, which is faster than the LSD NiMH cell like the Eneloop, but better than standard NiMH cells.

I was extremely impressed with the PowerGenix NiZn cells with respect to performance. They have the highest power capability of any other AA I have tested, and I am currently working on a few flashlight mods to take advantage of the higher power an higher voltage of these cells.

I just hope that PowerGenix stays in business. I have my doubts, because the advantage of these cells is only at very high power demand. Very few applications require this kind of power, and it is very difficult for a battery company to survive if they cannot show superiority or parity over a wide range of applications.

My recommendation is that if you like the PowerGenix cells, buy them now and store them in your refrigerator. I am betting that they will not be available in a year or two.

Cheers,
Battery Guy


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## LED_Thrift (Jun 12, 2010)

8% per month is not bad for most of my applications. I guess the lights in the glovebox will still get Eneloops, but I'll have to get some NiZn for my Eagletacs and camera. Do any of the active CPF dealers sell them yet? I did not see them on the BatteryJunction site yet. 

I sure hope they can stay afloat until their product finds the popularity it deserves.


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## Battery Guy (Jun 12, 2010)

LED_Thrift said:


> 8% per month is not bad for most of my applications. I guess the lights in the glovebox will still get Eneloops, but I'll have to get some NiZn for my Eagletacs and camera.


For high temperature applications, such as those in your car, I strongly recommend a flashlight solution that utilizes the Energizer e2 lithium AA cells. The high temperatures that most cars experience will rapidly kill standard alkaline cells and most NiMH cells (although LSD NiMH cells appear to do better at high temperatures).

As far as I am concerned, my vehicle flashlight there for the rare situation where I need a flashlight, and I need it to work. Therefore, all of my vehicle flashlights are setup to use a lithium AA battery solution.

In the US, the only option is Energizer, but apparently Philips and Duracell offer lithium AA products on the Continent. 

Cheers,
Battery Guy




LED_Thrift said:


> Do any of the active CPF dealers sell them yet? I did not see them on the BatteryJunction site yet.
> 
> I sure hope they can stay afloat until their product finds the popularity it deserves.


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## Battery Guy (Jun 12, 2010)

LED_Thrift said:


> 8% per month is not bad for most of my applications. I guess the lights in the glovebox will still get Eneloops, but I'll have to get some NiZn for my Eagletacs and camera.



For in the car flashlights, I recommend using lithium AA batteries. The assumption is that a vehicle flashlight will be exposed to large temperature extremes, and still need to operate in case of an emergency. Besides the Energizer e2 Lithium (Ultimate and Advanced varieties) I am not aware of any other battery chemistry (Eneloops included) that can meet this requirement.

Cheers,
Battery Guy


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## Burgess (Jun 12, 2010)

to Battery Guy --


Thank You for your time and effort in bringing us this Very Useful information.


:goodjob::kewlpics::thanks:

(kewl graph !)


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## Battery Guy (Jul 6, 2010)

Duracell Ultra Lithium test results added to the Ragone plot in the the original post.

All I can say is WOW! Although it appears that the total energy is a bit lower than the Energizer lithiums, the Duracell lithiums are the clear winner when it comes to high power draw.

Very impressive results for a primary battery. At a 3W discharge they lasted 1 hour! Although, even at a 2W continuous discharge, the cell was too hot to touch, so I would be cautious about using these for high power, continuous drain applications.

Special thanks to *Dusty*, who was willing to send these to me from the UK since they cannot be purchased in North America.

Cheers,
Battery Guy


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## 45/70 (Jul 6, 2010)

Battery Guy said:


> All I can say is WOW! Although it appears that the total energy is a bit lower than the Energizer lithiums, the Duracell lithiums are the clear winner when it comes to high power draw.



Yes, they do seem to clearly have a bit more "oomph". I can't say that it appears to be a really "wowie zowie" difference though.  Just curious, what are the dates on the Duracell's vs. the Energizer's?

Also, unrelated to lithium performance, but I'm curious as to how the Elite 1700's will fare in this test. Do you think you will be able to test them anytime soon?

Nice job, BG. :thumbsup:

Dave


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## Battery Guy (Jul 6, 2010)

45/70 said:


> Yes, they do seem to clearly have a bit more "oomph". I can't say that it appears to be a really "wowie zowie" difference though.  Just curious, what are the dates on the Duracell's vs. the Energizer's?



Pretty "wowie zowie" for a primary battery. Best I have seen so far. Although, it looks like Duracell gets the extra power by sacrificing total energy. 



45/70 said:


> Also, unrelated to lithium performance, but I'm curious as to how the Elite 1700's will fare in this test. Do you think you will be able to test them anytime soon?



I know! That Elite 1700 cell was looking at me today saying "test me, test me!". The problem is that most of my test systems are busy doing "real" work (the kind that pays the bills). I was able to squeeze the Duracell lithiums in because they are quick. 

I will make a serious effort to get the Elites on test this week. 

Cheers,
Battery Guy


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## 45/70 (Jul 6, 2010)

Yeah, OK. It looks like they may have close to a Watt advantage, at high rate. I was just wondering if their was a difference in age, and that might have had anything to do with it.

Looking forward to the Elite 1700 results. They are obvoiusly not capacity Kings, by any means, but I've always been impressed with their current ability. Using them hard however, does have an impact on their cycle life. :sigh:

Dave


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## *Dusty* (Jul 8, 2010)

The only time that I, in my absolutely limited knowledge of all things digital and technical, will be able to claim I was a key part in a battery test.

Unless you can test batteries by licking them.........

Good stuff Battery Guy, everyone appreciates your efforts!


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## Battery Guy (Jul 9, 2010)

45/70 said:


> Looking forward to the Elite 1700 results. They are obvoiusly not capacity Kings, by any means, but I've always been impressed with their current ability. Using them hard however, does have an impact on their cycle life.



The Elite 1700 testing was started yesterday. Nothing exciting to report yet as only the .25 W and .5 W discharge tests are complete. Total energy is ~2.1 Wh. I should have results up through 8 W complete and posted by Monday.

Cheers,
Battery Guy


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## 45/70 (Jul 9, 2010)

Sounds good, BG. The most common use that I have for the Elite 1700's is about 28-32 Watts for 6 in series (fully tricked ROP).

Dave


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## Battery Guy (Jul 10, 2010)

45/70 said:


> Sounds good, BG. The most common use that I have for the Elite 1700's is about 28-32 Watts for 6 in series (fully tricked ROP).
> 
> Dave



That's only ~5 Watts per cell. If these live up to their reputation, that should be nothing. In fact, Eneloops should do pretty well at that drain.

Cheers,
Battery Guy


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## 45/70 (Jul 10, 2010)

Battery Guy said:


> That's only ~5 Watts per cell. If these live up to their reputation, that should be nothing. In fact, Eneloops should do pretty well at that drain.



Yes, they do OK. The advantage of the Elite 1700's though, while the 3854H is definitely not the whitest incan bulb around to start with, it is much whiter (as well as brighter) with them, than with the eneloop's due to the higher voltage maintained. As I know you are familiar with hotwires, it's all about voltage, not current. 

Dave


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## Battery Guy (Jul 10, 2010)

45/70 said:


> Yes, they do OK. The advantage of the Elite 1700's though, while the 3854H is definitely not the whitest incan bulb around to start with, it is much whiter (as well as brighter) with them, than with the eneloop's due to the higher voltage maintained. As I know you are familiar with hotwires, it's all about voltage, not current.
> 
> Dave



Being new to the whole flashlight mod/hotwire hobby, I am slowly beginning to realize that it IS all about voltage (voltage under load, to be specific). 

That, and that the difference between a yellow light, a brilliant white light, and an instaflash  can all be in the series resistance within the flashlight.

I find the hotwire mod hobby to be quite fun and challenging. There are many design constraints for the power source (i.e. battery): volume and form factor of the battery, voltage, energy and power... And then, there is a rather limited selection of bulbs and reflectors.... And then that limited selection is even more limited because some companies discontinue certain bulbs.... And then that limited selection is even more limited because some bulbs are only available from CPF members.... And then, there is the whole instaflash  problem, that can make an otherwise excellent hotwire design unusable without some kind of soft-start solution....And then you find that the perfect battery for your hotwire mod is completely unreliable and leaks all over the inside of your flashlight....And then....


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## Battery Guy (Jul 13, 2010)

Data for the Elite 1700 cells has been added up to 10W discharge.

And they definitely live up to their reputation for a high drain cell. Testing will continue up to 16W. I am hoping they will surpass the PowerGenix and that we will have a new King of Power for the AA. Stay tuned!

Cheers,
Battery


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## 45/70 (Jul 13, 2010)

Looks like the Elite is starting to head south though. I would have thought it would do better than that.

I just realized that there isn't anyway to determine voltage under load on the plot. As we were discussing, that's the real advantage to the Elite's in some applications.

Nice job, BG.

Dave


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## drmaxx (Jul 14, 2010)

Thanks for these fantastic wealth of information. Takes a while to get used to reading the chart, but then it is just simply amazing.

Great work:thumbsup:


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## Battery Guy (Jul 16, 2010)

Well, we have a new "King of Power". Discharge results for the Elite 1700 have been added to the AA Ragone Plot in the first post. Looks like I will need to discharge at higher than 16 W if I want to see where these cells finally give out.

I don't quite understand the strange shape of the Elite 1700 curve. Actually, the 16 W discharge was slightly better than the 14 W discharge. Perhaps these cells need many cycles to be broken in properly.

I can go up to 32 W with a 0.8 V cut-off on my setup, but it might take a few more days for me to get to it. 

But for now, the Elite 1700 are definitely the highest power AA cells I have seen. 

Cheers,
Battery Guy


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## Bullzeyebill (Jul 16, 2010)

Battery Guy said:


> Well, we have a new "King of Power". Discharge results for the Elite 1700 have been added to the AA Ragone Plot in the first post. Looks like I will need to discharge at higher than 16 W if I want to see where these cells finally give out.
> 
> I don't quite understand the strange shape of the Elite 1700 curve. Actually, the 16 W discharge was slightly better than the 14 W discharge. Perhaps these cells need many cycles to be broken in properly.
> 
> ...



Remembering back, I think when js was working with development of the USL battery pack, js found that the hotter the CBP 1700AA's, he was using then, the better they performed. It was the higher current, 8+amps that brought them to life. This may be the case with other such high current AA's, such as the Elite 1700's. Jim later ended up with another brand cell, when the CBP's started leaking, not because of the current, but because of a design flaw of the cells.

Bill


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## Justin Case (Jul 16, 2010)

The Elite 1700s reportedly perform best when testing at high drain rates when the cells are "hot off the charger". If you let the cells rest even for a few minutes, that affects performance negatively. Also, charging them at 2C appears to improve high current performance as well.


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## Battery Guy (Jul 23, 2010)

Results for Imedion 2400 mAh AA NiMH cells added to the Ragone plot in the first post of this thread.

These cells had nearly identical voltage response to Eneloops up to ~6W. As expected, the higher capacity does reduce the power capability of these cells slightly.

I measured a total capacity of 2.35 Ah at a discharge of 250 mW.

Cheers,
BG


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## MichaelW (Jul 28, 2010)

What about the 3 volt primary cell inside the CR-V3 battery, should it more/less provide CR123 performance?


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## Battery Guy (Jul 28, 2010)

MichaelW said:


> What about the 3 volt primary cell inside the CR-V3 battery, should it more/less provide CR123 performance?



I don't know, to be honest. I have never tested the CR-V3 cells. Most manufacturers use two 3V Li-MnO2 AA cells in parallel for this battery, but Energizer uses two 1.5V Li-FeS2 AA cells in series. 

Is is common for people to harvest 3V Li-MnO2 AA cells from CR-V3s? If so, I guess I could run a few tests and add them to the Ragone plot if people find them useful.

Cheers,
BG


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## MichaelW (Jul 29, 2010)

Would it be easier to get these?
http://www.lisun.com/product_1.jsp?nId=48
http://www.lisun.com/manage/01Info/0101news/uploadpic/20091012104837.pdf
rather than dividing CR-V3.


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## Battery Guy (Jul 29, 2010)

MichaelW said:


> Would it be easier to get these?
> http://www.lisun.com/product_1.jsp?nId=48
> http://www.lisun.com/manage/01Info/0101news/uploadpic/20091012104837.pdf
> rather than dividing CR-V3.



I'm not even sure how one would go about buying those. 

I tried to focus on AA cells that are more commonly available and/or of significant interest. With respect to the 3V Li-MnO2 cells, they don't seem to be commonly available, nor does there appear to be a great interest in having them tested. However, if someone can point me in the right direction, I would be happy to purchase a few, test them, and post the results.

Cheers,
BG


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## MichaelW (Apr 16, 2012)

It seems like Energizer marginally upgraded both the L91 & EA91, and they can now be marketed as 9x & 6x, so any chance for a 2012 retest?


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