# Possible new multi cell Li-Ion Universal Balanced charger setup



## LuxLuthor (Mar 20, 2007)

As some of you may know, I have been looking all over for a way to safely charge a larger number of Li-Ion loose cells with individual voltage monitoring per cell charger slot that would provide safe balancing of pack voltages.

After spending about 25 hours searching for every place and forum that sells Lithium chargers, Lithium Batteries, Lithium Cell Balancers, LiPo Packs, and all the various RC communities....I have come to the conclusion that such a product does not yet exist...as there are only 2 slot cell chargers like the Pila or UltraFire both of which charge slowly.

I began a conversation today with the owner of a large RC supply company who saw an opportunity. I showed him the crappy DSD type cradle charger to give him an idea of a 2 slot model, even though that one is both cells charging together.

He was thinking it would not be that hard to setup a multi-slot charger with 10-12 spring loaded slots that would each have a "tap" lead that would go into a balancing charger setup. 

Of course you would need a separate charger that does cell balancing, but this would be the best way to resolve all the safety issues of loose cells in packs, and would even give you the capability of 1C charging rates if you wanted.

This is fun, and he can see the huge market for this. He was stunned when he saw the number of users on this forum....although check out the 1,100 users on this other vBulletin forum for RC users.

I was thinking it would make sense to have him get a cheaper balancing solution charger & power source to combine with this setup. Also to make sure it includes the capability of charging D & C Li-Ion cells safely.


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## JimmyM (Mar 20, 2007)

Bravo, Lux. That's a great idea.
I had planned on doing the same with my DSD for balance charging anything that would go into the DSD, but it would be connected to my eStation BC-8
It's a charger with built in balancing for up to 8 cells. I've got a couple of balancing adapters for it. I had planned on building an 8 cell rack for D cells.


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## LuxLuthor (Mar 20, 2007)

Yeah, I'm gonna sacrifice my 3 DSD's to do the same thing, after rewiring them to be 6S, and with tap leads coming out.

But this guy had that inventor's bright light go on when he realized there was no way to charge a large number of Li-Ion cells, including the new C cells, and D cells...more than one at a time.

He plans on sending me a prototype holder to see how the various cells will fit in it.


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## greenLED (Mar 20, 2007)

Very cool, Lux. Please keep us posted.


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## gammaray1965 (Mar 21, 2007)

Has anyone heard of Lithium-Fiber batteries?


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## LuxLuthor (Mar 21, 2007)

gammaray1965 said:


> Has anyone heard of Lithium-Fiber batteries?



Yeah it is on the horizon. There is also Saphion Lithium batteries that are available now, which use phosphate instead of cobalt-oxide on the cathode which makes them safe. They have a set of videos demonstrating their safety next to normal Lithium Ion/Lipo batteries here.


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## PhantomPhoton (Mar 21, 2007)

I would appreciate a safe solution for my C's greatly. Thanks.


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## gammaray1965 (Mar 21, 2007)

It appears that the saphion technology is the way to go! It would be nice not to have to worry about something going wrong while charging some batteries up!

I'm


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## LuxLuthor (Mar 21, 2007)

I don't know if they make a whole lineup of various cells though.


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## JimmyM (Mar 21, 2007)

LuxLuthor said:


> I don't know if they make a whole lineup of various cells though.


They don't. I've already approached them regarding different cell sizes.
Them as well as eOne Moli


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## SilverFox (Mar 21, 2007)

Hello PhantomPhoton,

To properly charge your C 3300 mAh cells, the manufacturers recommend charging in the range of 0.5C to 1.0C. You will have to refer to the data sheet for your particular cells for their recommendation, but that seems to be the range of charging rates. The ideal range seems to be around 0.7C.

Doing the math, you need a charger that is capable of charging at 1650 mA - 3300 mA. The 0.7C rate works out to 2310 mA.

A 0.5C charge rate will take roughly 5 hours to charge a cell. This seems to be the rate that most consumer products use. 

The charge termination is usually set to around 0.1C. This means that when the charging current drops to below 330 mA, for the 3300 mAh cell, the charge is terminated. Trickle charging and charging at very low rates is not recommended, and not healthy for your cells. It can also cause safety issues.

There is a gray area between the 0.1C cut off current and the 0.5C recommended charge current. While it is possible to charge at currents within that range, I am not sure what the safety and performance ramifications are.

Tom


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## lasercrazy (Mar 21, 2007)

Let us know how this works out. I'm very interested.


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## WAVE_PARTICLE (Mar 21, 2007)

I'm in.


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## greenLED (Mar 21, 2007)

Just a random thought:

How about making this charger in a physical setup similar to the Vanson, where you pull back a metal tab to secure the cells into their positions? The choice of charging algorithm would need to be different than in the Vanson, though. Could the metal tab be wired into the charger in such a way that it "sensed" the length of the cell and that way chose a given charging rate? This could be implemented in combination with the little "sensors" the Vanson has where the (+) end of the cells contact the charger.

This is a really neat project. :twothumbs


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## TMorita (Mar 21, 2007)

LuxLuthor said:


> As some of you may know, I have been looking all over for a way to safely charge a larger number of Li-Ion loose cells with individual voltage monitoring per cell charger slot that would provide safe balancing of pack voltages.
> 
> After spending about 25 hours searching for every place and forum that sells Lithium chargers, Lithium Batteries, Lithium Cell Balancers, LiPo Packs, and all the various RC communities....I have come to the conclusion that such a product does not yet exist...as there are only 2 slot cell chargers like the Pila or UltraFire both of which charge slowly.


Huh? These have been around for at least two years. All you need is a battery holder with multiple taps to use them.

Here's links to a few:

http://www.b-p-p.com/proddetail.php?prod=h_DNCharger
www.thunderpower-batteries.com/documents/TP205.pdf 
http://www2.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin/wti0001p?&I=LXPZT6&P=0
http://www.align.com.tw/shop/product_info.php?cPath=22_34&products_id=1574
http://www.rcuniverse.com/magazine/NewProduct.cfm?product_id=1644
http://batteryjunction.com/temilibachwl.htmlhttp://batteryjunction.com/temilibachwl.html


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## LuxLuthor (Mar 21, 2007)

greenLED said:


> Just a random thought:
> 
> How about making this charger in a physical setup similar to the Vanson, where you pull back a metal tab to secure the cells into their positions? The choice of charging algorithm would need to be different than in the Vanson, though. Could the metal tab be wired into the charger in such a way that it "sensed" the length of the cell and that way chose a given charging rate? This could be implemented in combination with the little "sensors" the Vanson has where the (+) end of the cells contact the charger.
> 
> This is a really neat project. :twothumbs



Green, I have never seen a Vanson before, and looking at pictures at Amondo's site is not entirely clear to me how that "pull back a metal tab to secure cells" is setup. I was not envisioning making this into an automatic charger that had the capability of sensing mAh capacities of various cells based on length. My initial thought when looking at how close some of the lengths of AW's cells are, and the liklihood that protection circuit designs of various Li-Ion makers could make a given cell model have different sizes from one brand to another.

While I agree that would be a neat feature, I am pretty sure that adding those kinds of "auto sensing" features would give a lot more things that could go wrong, and significantly delay the project. With the amount of mA current that would need to be applied to various cell types (especially larger ones) in 10S to 12S quantities, I don't see a way around needing a better quality charger that does balancing. Something like the Vanson and it's transformer....just won't safely put out the current needed.


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## LuxLuthor (Mar 21, 2007)

TMorita said:


> Huh? These have been around for at least two years. All you need is a battery holder with multiple taps to use them.
> 
> Here's links to a few:
> 
> ...



TMorita, thanks for your note. I know balancers have been around for a number of years...that's not the issue. What is missing is a loose Li-Ion cell cradle with 10-12 adjustable slots to accomodate the wide variety of Li-Ion sizes shown here (& perhaps the new C size...and maybe D Li-Ion size), and with each slot independently tap wired.

As you know, all the RC LiPo packs come with the tap wires coming out of a pack into a harness connector, ready to plug into a balancer, and having been soldered to the individual cell terminal tabs. Nothing like that exists for loose Li-Ions, or Li-Ion packs.

In researching this project, there is not even a multi-slot plastic holder that will work as a universal Li-Ion size holder to even be able to attach the taps to. I know it is hard to believe, but because there are no universal size Li-Ion holders, there is no way available to actually do multiple Li-Ion cell balancing. 

None of the various serial custom Li-Ion battery holder backs have any capability of doing balance charging....let alone 0.5 to 1.0C Li-Ion cell charging with a Schultze or my Hyperion. We Li-Ion cell users are light years behind the RC LiPo crowd.

The best option right which holds most sizes (but not all) of Li-Ion cells are the 2 slot Pila or Ultrafire low current chargers. They only put out 600 mA, and do not balance...except that they independently charge up to 4.2V

This is an example (the DSD) of what we have to deal with for charging our Li-Ion cells...including having to use brass spacer plugs.


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## greenLED (Mar 21, 2007)

Lux, that's not the "Vanson" I had in mind. Here's the link to the one I used to have:
http://www.amondotech.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=277

Here's the link to the "pull back tab mechanism" I was referring to. 
http://www.amondotech.com/images/nimh-chargers/bc1hu/BC1HU_1_lg.gif

What you do is pull that metal tab back (inside the charger, towards the bottom of the pic), insert the cell, and then release the tab. A spring brings the tab forward and secures the cell in place. Depending on the cell's size, the (+) button matches with the appropriate charging channel (those small metal rectangles you see opposite to the metal tabs).


I'm not suggesting you use the internals and power supply of the Vanson, just the battery securing/size sorting idea, if anything. You're right, with a growing number of available li-ion sizes, protection circuits, and size tolerances, it'll be tricky to get all of those right automatically.

IIRC, the last incident of a cell venting was because the user had the wrong setting on the charger.  Some type of mechanical or electronic system that would take user error out of the equation (or minimize it) would be a useful feature to have.


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## cy (Mar 21, 2007)

this junky old NHM/Nicad charger looks to be a good host for a balancer mod. 

looks like a balancer module for Schulze is in my future...

edit: note picture is only to show holder can take several size cells. you should only charge like cells when mod is done.


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## greenLED (Mar 21, 2007)

Way to go, CY! That one also has those sliding metal tabs to secure the cells in place I was talking about.


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## LuxLuthor (Mar 21, 2007)

cy said:


> this junky old NHM/Nicad charger looks to be a good host for a balancer mod.
> 
> looks like a balancer module for Schulze is in my future...



Yeah, that is another type of plastic holder with the sliding feature like Green was saying...and it gives a better idea of what is missing....but I want something that can do at least 6, and maybe up to 12 slots. You could do less cell numbers if you wanted...the empty slots will become irrelevant, since they are all wired in serial connections from slot to slot to the last one.

Maybe the best idea would be to have two 6-slot cradles that could be plugged into each other. The Hyperion balancer only does 6 cells, unless you network another balancer LBA-10, then you can do 12 cells. I think a one piece 12 slot cradle would be too large.

I'll show him that picture, Cy....the one thing though is I don't think we want to be charging various capacity cells at the same time....just so people don't get that idea from cy's image which is demonstrating size capability.


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## cy (Mar 21, 2007)

opsss.... thanks and edited to reflect you should only charge like cells in finished balanced charger mod.


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## JimmyM (Mar 21, 2007)

I really like the path this thread is taking.
The only issue I see with this (with regard to my BC-8 at least) is that the negative charging lead, of course, must be connected to the most negative connection. The positive connection is a little different.
For a 2 cell pack... the #1 tap is connected to the most negative point, #2 is connected to the battery 1/ battery 2 connection. Tap #3 is connected to the most positive end with the positive charging lead. The remaining 6 taps are left disconnected. Every time a cell is added the next tap must be connected and then the positive lead is moved. A fixed wiring arrangement would be OK for the taps, but the positive lead connection point would have to move based on the number of cells currently being charged. I was thinking that a switch connected to each of the slider mechanisms would activate a relay (MOSFET, whatever) to move the positive charging lead accordingly.


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## LuxLuthor (Mar 21, 2007)

JimmyM said:


> I really like the path this thread is taking.
> The only issue I see with this (with regard to my BC-8 at least) is that the negative charging lead, of course, must be connected to the most negative connection. The positive connection is a little different.
> For a 2 cell pack... the #1 tap is connected to the most negative point, #2 is connected to the battery 1/ battery 2 connection. Tap #3 is connected to the most positive end with the positive charging lead. The remaining 6 taps are left disconnected. Every time a cell is added the next tap must be connected and then the positive lead is moved. A fixed wiring arrangement would be OK for the taps, but the positive lead connection point would have to move based on the number of cells currently being charged. I was thinking that a switch connected to each of the slider mechanisms would activate a relay (MOSFET, whatever) to move the positive charging lead accordingly.



Yeah, that is a really important aspect of this, Jimmy. I suspect the issue of resistance increasing proportionate to the number of slots used, material & amount of contact surface of terminals, guage of wire, and that issue of # of taps used selection like you mentioned are all important. 

This RC dealer also thought it would be good to make it a 6 slot unit, with perhaps a second 6 slot cradle that could be connected in series or parallel. It would be similar to setups like you can reproduce on this handy website with customizing diagrams.

http://scriptasylum.com/rc_speed/_lipo.html Look at the bottom set of diagrams for using two 6-slot cradles.


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## JimmyM (Mar 21, 2007)

LuxLuthor said:


> Yeah, that is a really important aspect of this, Jimmy. I suspect the issue of resistance increasing proportionate to the number of slots used, material & amount of contact surface of terminals, guage of wire, and that issue of # of taps used selection like you mentioned are all important.


I don't think resistance will be that big an issue. Charging is current based (it would adjust to maintain the required current) and cell voltage is monitored at the cells themselves and the tap wires would carry little current. Plus, it would only have to carry a couple of amps.
I've put together a little schematic that would perform the required switching. The only thing required would be that each of the sliding tabs have a microswitch or magnetic switch that is activated when a cell is inserted.


LuxLuthor said:


> This RC dealer also thought it would be good to make it a 6 slot unit, with perhaps a second 6 slot cradle that could be connected in series or parallel. It would be similar to setups like you can reproduce on this handy website with customizing diagrams.
> 
> http://scriptasylum.com/rc_speed/_lipo.html Look at the bottom set of diagrams for using two 6-slot cradles.


I'd prefer 8 because I can do 8 cells simultaneously. Call me selfish.


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## LuxLuthor (Mar 21, 2007)

JimmyM said:


> I don't think resistance will be that big an issue. Charging is current based (it would adjust to maintain the required current) and cell voltage is monitored at the cells themselves and the tap wires would carry little current. Plus, it would only have to carry a couple of amps.
> I've put together a little schematic that would perform the required switching. The only thing required would be that each of the sliding tabs have a microswitch or magnetic switch that is activated when a cell is inserted.
> 
> I'd prefer 8 because I can do 8 cells simultaneously. Call me selfish.



I agree more slots is better, but an option is to have an ability to plug in additional cradles. I'm only thinking of the footprint size of a universal 8, 10, or 12 slot charger though.

I also wonder if the 6 cell Hyperion LBA-10 balancer is typical of most balancing chargers or modules for chargers. The dealer's initial thought was a 6 slot would be more adaptable to existing balancers...but he just started on this.


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## JimmyM (Mar 21, 2007)

Linking additional units using my "auto switching" design would require that there be one "high current" connector (which would be the same connector that the charger connects to while only using 1 unit) and 4 small wires to carry the "switching logic" from the second unit into the first. As far as I can see, if 2 or more units are connected, you can still use it for less than 6 cells without disconnecting the second unit.
The tap connections would be on each unit for the cells in those units. So the proper harness would have to be used depending on the charger/balancer to which the units are connected.


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## cy (Mar 22, 2007)

Tenergy li-ion charger with load balancing with four LDC to monitor output and a 5amp 12v power supply.... all for $89 looks too good to be true. http://www.all-battery.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=1644

I've already got a Schulze, so I'm already covered. but for someone without a suitable charger for C li-ion. this could be the base for a multi-cell balanced charger mod. 

really like the (almost) fool proof wire hookups. completely different output sockets for 4, 3, 2 and one cell config. 

note: cradle below show different sizes for display only.


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## LuxLuthor (Mar 22, 2007)

Cy, because that charger/transformer package looks so nice, I'm wondering if the universal cradle project would be better served by doing it as a 4 slot size, which could then be combined with this very charger w/ easy to use transformer. 

It would allow new users a more economical choice who really don't need (or want to get into) the Schultze/Hyperion type setups with balancer, 12-15V power supplies. 

I think they could have an option of getting a second (or 3rd) universal cradle that would plug into first (in series) to give power users an 8 and/or 12 slot option.

What do you think?


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## Alin10123 (Mar 23, 2007)

I've actually got one in the works that's coming up here shortly. Just a few quick specs.

-Able to charge 1-6 lithiums at a time (with balance charging capability)
-Can charge 1-14 nimh/nicd cells at a time
-lead acid batteries can be charged
-charging rate of .1-5A
-discharge rate of .1-2A
-charge/discharge cycles 1-5
-10 different memory storage options so that you can program in custom packs.
-Can hook up via USB to the computer (optional)

Price should be well under $100. It would be very well under $100 depending on the amount of interest.

Thoughts?


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## LuxLuthor (Mar 23, 2007)

Alin, that is a welcome idea and depending on the price and quality, I think a lot would be interested. What is the power source? I think it would be compared to that Tenergy model with the 5A 12V transformer in terms of performance...so you might want to get one of those to do your own comparison.

I have the Hyperion 1210i, but I just bought one of those Tenergy packages just because it is a more portable solution for trips...and a pretty good price.

The thing that is really needed is a reliable universal cradle with individual taps for balance charging that I started this thread about. I have a large RC vendor interested, but who knows how long it will take for him to get a prototype...or if he will stay interested. It couldn't hurt to have a couple sticks in the fire, because there is no good way with even the Tenergy or your proposal to rig up the balance charging cradle with individual taps going to each slot, unless you customize something like Cy posted the image of.


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## Alin10123 (Mar 23, 2007)

LuxLuthor said:


> Alin, that is a welcome idea and depending on the price and quality, I think a lot would be interested. What is the power source? I think it would be compared to that Tenergy model with the 5A 12V transformer in terms of performance...so you might want to get one of those to do your own comparison.
> 
> I have the Hyperion 1210i, but I just bought one of those Tenergy packages just because it is a more portable solution for trips...and a pretty good price.
> 
> The thing that is really needed is a reliable universal cradle with individual taps for balance charging that I started this thread about. I have a large RC vendor interested, but who knows how long it will take for him to get a prototype...or if he will stay interested. It couldn't hurt to have a couple sticks in the fire, because there is no good way with even the Tenergy or your proposal to rig up the balance charging cradle with individual taps going to each slot, unless you customize something like Cy posted the image of.



Power source should be a standard AC input. Like the one you plug into the wall inside your house. As far as the voltage range is looks like it should be ok for worldwide use but i wont be positive until a few days later. 

Did i forget to mention that there's an optional temperature sensor as well?


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## cy (Mar 23, 2007)

no offense... but prefer choice is a proven one. 

hopefully a charger with lots of time in the field that proven safe with larger li-ion/lipo packs. 

with these larger C li-ion cells out in folks hot little hands. We don't need more unsafe li-ion chargers. an explosion with C li-ion would not be a minor one. 



Alin10123 said:


> I've actually got one in the works that's coming up here shortly. Just a few quick specs.
> 
> -Able to charge 1-6 lithiums at a time (with balance charging capability)
> -Can charge 1-14 nimh/nicd cells at a time
> ...


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## Alin10123 (Mar 23, 2007)

cy said:


> no offense... but prefer choice is a proven one.
> 
> hopefully a charger with lots of time in the field that proven safe with larger li-ion/lipo packs.
> 
> with these larger C li-ion cells out in folks hot little hands. We don't need more unsafe li-ion chargers. an explosion with C li-ion would not be a minor one.



This is not a brand new charger that is still on paper or anything like that. It has also been used in different fields before with good results.

This charger has many safeties built into it and has been used by quite a few already. This particular charger has an optional temperature sensor, balanced charging capability, and even USB analysis capability. It's also microprocessor controlled just like all of the other recommendations that people have also posted in this thread. 

When i said "in the works". It means as far as me getting enough information, so that i can get enough interest, so that i can get a good quantity to be able to get this charger to folks here at CPF at a good price.


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## cy (Mar 23, 2007)

apologies for being blunt.... but deeds speak louder than words... the fact that you've continued to sell your "smart" li-ion charger after repeated warnings there was possible safety issues speaks volumes. 

again the prefer choice for a safe li-ion charger for these C li-ions is a proven charger that's been out in the field with RC folks. those folks mince no words with a charger that's not safe. or that doesn't perform up to par with large capacity lipo packs. 

now back on topic!

According to Silver charging in parallel is the safest way to charge a number of like li-ion cells. one drawback I see right away is charger would have to deliver large amps. 

1c for two 3amp cells would be 6amps when charging in parallel.



Alin10123 said:


> This is not a brand new charger that is still on paper or anything like that. It has also been used in different fields before with good results.
> 
> This charger has many safeties built into it and has been used by quite a few already. This particular charger has an optional temperature sensor, balanced charging capability, and even USB analysis capability. It's also microprocessor controlled just like all of the other recommendations that people have also posted in this thread.
> 
> When i said "in the works". It means as far as me getting enough information, so that i can get enough interest, so that i can get a good quantity to be able to get this charger to folks here at CPF at a good price.


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## Alin10123 (Mar 23, 2007)

This charger HAS been proven in the field with the RC people. 
The only safety issue here with the previous smart lithium charger is only with user error. I'm sure with even the safest charger in the world somebody could still find a way set it on fire. But it's not because of the charger. It's because of user error, not the charger. It has already been said numerous times even in Luxluthors warning thread that if you set the voltage correctly that the charger works fine. There's also a warning up in the buy thread that has been there since the possibility came up of a user error occuring. 

There are numerous threads here on CPF that come up quite often on how a CR123 cell vented and exploded. Why aren't you telling everyone that sells CR123 cells to stop selling them? With those incidents, it's not even a matter of user error. It's when a light is sitting there idly, or when someone is using it as intended and they have been following the directions of the manufacturer. But things STILL happen. It's also been noted here that if you aren't careful, things can happen with certain battery holders that allow cells to be charged while still in the holder. Have you told the maker that "his deeds speak louder than words" because he continues to sell his battery holder? There are risks involved with handling any lithium batteries protected or not! But yet people still use them

What does my continuing to sell this charger have to do with speaking volumes about the safety of the new charger with all these safety features, balancing capability, and has even has been tested in the field before?

This thread was started by Luxluthor in order to find a safe way to charge lithium cells. Please, lets stay on topic. 



cy said:


> apologies for being blunt.... but deeds speak louder than words... the fact that you've continued to sell your "smart" li-ion charger after repeated warnings there was possible safety issues speaks volumes.
> 
> again the prefer choice for a safe li-ion charger for these C li-ions is a proven charger that's been out in the field with RC folks. those folks mince no words with a charger that's not safe. or that doesn't perform up to par with large capacity lipo packs.
> 
> ...


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## LuxLuthor (Mar 23, 2007)

cy said:


> According to Silver charging in parallel is the safest way to charge a number of like li-ion cells. one drawback I see right away is charger would have to deliver large amps.
> 
> 1c for two 3amp cells would be 6amps when charging in parallel.



I think these 3A Li-Ion C cells are going to present a (safe, balanced) charging challenge for 2S or 3S at a time without a Hyperion/Schultze/Triton type setup....in a reasonable amount of charging time anyway.

I'm confused why & how you would do a 2P-1S with them, given that you will be using them in series with FiveMega's 2-cell/3-cell lights...wouldn't it be safer to do them as 2S-1P or 3S-1P with balancing taps? 

Or are you saying to do them 1S at a time so they get the "poor man's balancing" with all being charged up to the same 4.2V ? If that's what you mean, then I can see running parallel wire splits to do several in parallel at the same time like you said.


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## paulsl (Mar 23, 2007)

Alin, can u respond to my PM pls. It's late in NY and I'm going to WE place tomorrow and would like to resolve now pls.


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## cy (Mar 23, 2007)

with all due respect... I disagree this is off topic. 

topic is to find a SAFE solution to charge multiple li-ion cells. I totally disagree with your attempt to trivialize the safety aspect of your "smart" charger. 

when you've come to this thread promoting your sale of a new charger. your track record for selling a charger that's questionable after safety issues is pointed out of course comes out. 

before those issues are known, it's totally understandable. but once valid safety issue are pointed out. you are incurring some real possible liability if a bad accident happens. 

and yes folks have yanked CR123 cells off the shelve once safety issues have been pointed out. witness the 5,000+ titanium cells that was yanked and are now being sold at a loss with stipulation. cells be only used in single cell applications. 



Alin10123 said:


> This charger HAS been proven in the field with the RC people.
> The only safety issue here with the previous smart lithium charger is only with user error. I'm sure with even the safest charger in the world somebody could still find a way set it on fire. But it's not because of the charger. It's because of user error, not the charger. It has already been said numerous times even in Luxluthors warning thread that if you set the voltage correctly that the charger works fine. There's also a warning up in the buy thread that has been there since the possibility came up of a user error occuring.
> 
> There are numerous threads here on CPF that come up quite often on how a CR123 cell vented and exploded. Why aren't you telling everyone that sells CR123 cells to stop selling them? With those incidents, it's not even a matter of user error. It's when a light is sitting there idly, or when someone is using it as intended and they have been following the directions of the manufacturer. But things STILL happen. It's also been noted here that if you aren't careful, things can happen with certain battery holders that allow cells to be charged while still in the holder. Have you told the maker that "his deeds speak louder than words" because he continues to sell his battery holder? There are risks involved with handling any lithium batteries protected or not! But yet people still use them
> ...


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## Alin10123 (Mar 23, 2007)

Yes, exactly. The solution is to find a SAFE charging solution for mutiple li-ion cells. Not bring up topics that have been discussed in numerous other threads. I am not trying to trivialize anything. The entire topic only came up because of user error. The user even stated that it was his fault that caused the accident and that it was in no way related to the functionality of the charger. This is not an attempt at anything. I'm stating the facts and quoting him.

I am not trying to "promote" anything for a sale either. I'm only trying to gauge interest to put together a group buy. I'm not a dealer here. I've been a member here long before i started doing any of this charger stuff. At the time there was lots of unknowns regarding nimh battery chargers when it came to people that were new to hotwires. That's when i started an interest thread in the group buy section and when i got enough interest i ordered the chargers for myself and everyone else that wanted one. The Lithium version was later on requested. There's literally no profit on that one at all. You are making it sound as if i'm getting rich of selling a questionable product. I mainly provided my knowledge of Nimh cells to people that were new to rechargeable cells and hotwire lights. No, i did not recommend any lithium cells to them nor did i recommend the charger. I specifically told them to go nimh if they were new at this and to read up on the dangers of lithium cells. 

There has been warnings in the buy thread ever since the possibility of issues came up. I have also sent numerous e-mails to the manufacturer/distributor regarding this issue and i'm told they are working on an updated solution to the small switch. I'm also putting together an e-mail list for people that have purchased the charger to warn them to double check the switch before starting to charge. Furthermore, how do you know that i'm not waiting for the last few of these to sell out? Do you know if i plan to continue purchasing anymore for the CPF GB? There isn't much else that can be done. 

If you say the titanium cells are being sold until they sell out and they have a warning when you purchase, that's pretty much what i did. I put a warning on the buy thread regarding the risks and i have not ordered anymore since. Once they are gone. They are gone unless the manufacturer makes some modifications to the charger. I dont have that many left.

There was one case here that was admittedly user error. While there have been numerous cases regarding CR123 cells. Mainly battery station cells and even a couple surefire cells have had things happen to them before too. However, it doesn't appear that they are clearing out any of their inventories or going crazy over this. Flashlight hobbyists are still buying and using their cells knowing that things have happened before with those specific brand of cells they are using.

I would appreciate it if you would stop posting behind every post that i post regarding the new charger. The one that i am trying to get details on retails for over $140 and i'm trying to get it for myself and other CPF members that would like a safe charger for well under $100. I'm sure there won't be anyone here objecting to that.




cy said:


> with all due respect... I disagree this is off topic.
> 
> topic is to find a SAFE solution to charge multiple li-ion cells. I totally disagree with your attempt to trivialize the safety aspect of your "smart" charger.
> 
> ...


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## DM51 (Mar 23, 2007)

Alin10123 said:


> But it's not because of the charger. It's because of user error, not the charger.





Alin10123 said:


> ----[snip)----
> 
> This thread was started by Luxluthor in order to find a safe way to charge lithium cells.


In the case that started all this (Norm’s thread) it may well have been user error, but it was an error that was far too easy to make on this charger. 

And that isn’t the only safety issue with this charger – a serious problem with it is that a user will assume it is safe to charge cells in series using this charger. It is *NOT* safe, and it is misleading to say or imply that it is. There is no safe balancing of cell voltages when cells are charged in series on this charger. The potential for imbalance is what makes it inherently unsafe. It should have been withdrawn from sale at once when this was pointed out.


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## Alin10123 (Mar 23, 2007)

DM51 said:


> In the case that started all this (Norm’s thread) it may well have been user error, but it was an error that was far too easy to make on this charger.
> 
> And that isn’t the only safety issue with this charger – a serious problem with it is that a user will assume it is safe to charge cells in series using this charger. It is *NOT* safe, and it is misleading to say or imply that it is. There is no safe balancing of cell voltages when cells are charged in series on this charger. The potential for imbalance is what makes it inherently unsafe. It should have been withdrawn from sale at once when this was pointed out.



I am not implying that it's safe to charge unmismatched cells. There is a warning in the thread as well near the top of the buy thread to make sure that the cells are well matched.


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## max52 (Mar 23, 2007)

Originally Posted by Alin10123
I've actually got one in the works that's coming up here shortly. Just a few quick specs.

-Able to charge 1-6 lithiums at a time (with balance charging capability)
-Can charge 1-14 nimh/nicd cells at a time
-lead acid batteries can be charged
-charging rate of .1-5A
-discharge rate of .1-2A
-charge/discharge cycles 1-5
-10 different memory storage options so that you can program in custom packs.
-Can hook up via USB to the computer (optional)

Price should be well under $100. It would be very well under $100 depending on the amount of interest.

Thoughts?

alin10123
I am certainly interested in the possibility on your new charger, I have many chargers including both your Multi-current, to my Triton. I find no significant danger in using your charger as long as people read the instructions, warnings, and follow common sense. Some people on this site are like the government. I need information, not editorials on how they are going to protect me from myself. Let the idiots blow themselves up..Morons are not my responsibility. If I only engaged in totally safe activities, I would never leave my home. I guess I should sell my motorcycle.

Attacking alin10123 to me is pompous. I am interested in new solutions.


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## JimmyM (Mar 23, 2007)

cy said:


> I totally disagree with your attempt to trivialize the safety aspect of your "smart" charger.
> 
> when you've come to this thread promoting your sale of a new charger. your track record for selling a charger that's questionable after safety issues is pointed out of course comes out.


What failed? What is the safety issue? The only thing I remember reading about is that some guy blew up a cell by charging one cell with the charger set for 2. Is there a new safety problem with this charger?

Am I to read the above posts correctly? Alin10123 is being bashed because he sells a charger that does exactly what it says it will do? User error is just that. USER error. My truck does absolutely nothing to prevent me from steering into oncoming traffic. If I do, I can't sue GM for building a truck that doesn't prevent me from driving into oncoming traffic.
There are plenty of instructions / warnings (from what I've read) outlining hazards involved with this charger.
If anyone has a bone to pick with Alin10123 regarding the lithium charger involved in the "incident", do it elsewhere. It is off topic in this thread.
The subject is "Possible new multi cell Li-Ion Universal Balanced charger setup". The charger involved in the incident was neither New, nor Balancing.


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## JimmyM (Mar 23, 2007)

Lex's suggestion of a 4 cell "universal" cradle for the 4 cell balancing charger is nice. We would have to confirm that it did the proper connecting when it sensed a cell in the cradle. The Hyperion requires different wiring arrangement for 2 or 3 or 5 cell pack.
The power supply, balancing charger, and cradle would be a great solution for most needs. Just plug in a 5 pin plug from the cradle to the charger and you're off to the races!
I might get 4 individual cell holders and wire them up using my 'auto-switching " idea to see if it works as I think it should.


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## DM51 (Mar 23, 2007)

JimmyM said:


> The charger involved in the incident was neither New, nor Balancing.


That it was not a balancing charger is precisely the point. It is unsafe to charge Li-Ions in series if they are not balanced. That is the whole point of this thread, and it is YOU who are off topic for trying to defend the sale of a charger which is inherently unsafe.


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## JimmyM (Mar 23, 2007)

DM51 said:


> and it is YOU who are off topic for trying to defend the sale of a charger which is inherently unsafe.


Give me a break. I'm done with this. There is just no explaining personal responsibility to some folks.

Soooooo. Any constructive contribution from those of us here to discuss a Universal balancing charger/cradle?


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## zehnmm (Mar 23, 2007)

I will soon receive some of AW's new protected C's. Until I learn better, I plan to charge 'em one at a time, with my Schulze charger. I have read all over these forums about charging li-ions, but I still feel I am in need of more education.

So far, all I have done with my Schulze is use FM's AA adapters for 6 and 12 nimh's. It is great for this.

I have read through all of these threads and have a couple of questions about charging li-ions, especially from those of you who are adept using the Schulze charger.

1. I am reading in these forums that it is best to charge 2 or more li-ions in parallel. Should I even consider charging, say 2, in serial? If I were to do so, I plan to with 2 like cells as best as I can and monitor like all get-out. What do you think?
2. Is there some easy way that I can charge 2 or more li-ion C's in parallel with my Schulze? Is there some easy to make "cradle" using ordinary household materials, or at least a few items from a hardware store? I must confess, alas, that I am not good at all at engineering and making things.
3. Should I wait for a possible new li-ion charger that has been discussed?

Are there other thoughts that you would like to share?

Thanks!


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## SilverFox (Mar 23, 2007)

Here are some comments on this.

Tom


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## zehnmm (Mar 23, 2007)

Tom: Thanks for the link. I posted pretty close to when you did. Your comments are most appreciated.


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## SilverFox (Mar 23, 2007)

Hello Zehnmm,

You can use a variation of Cy's charging clamp to charge cells in parallel. You simply have a bar instead of his single cell contacts. It is a bit of a trick to get more than 2 cells lined up, but with minimal gymnastics, I can usually manage 3 cells. I usually only charge 2 at a time.

If you have cells that have been discharged together in the same application, you can series charge them. If you select the Li-Ion charge setting on the Schulze, they will be charged to 4.1 volts. You can then check them to see if they are balanced, and change your setting to Li-Po for a 4.2 volt charge.

Tom


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## max52 (Mar 23, 2007)

Thank God for SilverFox. Excellent post.


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## Nebula (Mar 23, 2007)

JimmyM - Thank you for your well reasoned input. KK 



JimmyM said:


> What failed? What is the safety issue? The only thing I remember reading about is that some guy blew up a cell by charging one cell with the charger set for 2. Is there a new safety problem with this charger?
> 
> Am I to read the above posts correctly? Alin10123 is being bashed because he sells a charger that does exactly what it says it will do? User error is just that. USER error. My truck does absolutely nothing to prevent me from steering into oncoming traffic. If I do, I can't sue GM for building a truck that doesn't prevent me from driving into oncoming traffic.
> There are plenty of instructions / warnings (from what I've read) outlining hazards involved with this charger.
> ...


----------



## LuxLuthor (Mar 23, 2007)

I started this thread to both point out the lack of, and to make sure we give input about the best way to have a reliable universal charging cradle for the various size Li-Ions....independent of whichever charger is used. I was shocked to realize how dangerous my Lithium charging has been, and even more shocked that there was no practical cradle in existence for doing balance charging, or parallel charging. Essentially, someone will make a few bucks for providing this needed cradle...which I don't want any part of. *I'm only interested in it being done, and done safely. I'm also interested in what is the best "home made" setup in the short term for SAFE charging of my Li-Ions.*

The types of Li-Ion chargers, or safety of chargers is really a different topic...but it keeps seeming like there is not ever going to be an easy, foolproof way to safely charge Li-Ion cells...unless a whole new safer chemistry replaces existing types for cells...which I don't see on the horizon yet.


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## Tronic (Mar 23, 2007)

I have found it!!!





Universal charging cradle for 4x AAA, AA, C or D batteries.
Max charging current: 3A
Connection with 4mm banana plug.

They also have a 1 cell universal holder:




What do you think?


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## NetKidz (Mar 23, 2007)

Tronic said:


> I have found it!!!
> Universal charging cradle for 4x AAA, AA, C or D batteries.
> Max charging current: 3A
> Connection with 4mm banana plug.


 
:goodjob: 

It look like common ground with only one negative plug. I think it's good for parallel charging and may take some efforts to wire in series. 




> They also have a 1 cell universal holder:
> 
> What do you think?


 
Any online store carries them? :naughty: 

Thanks.


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## Tronic (Mar 23, 2007)

NetKidz said:


> :goodjob:
> 
> It look like common ground with only one negative plug. I think it's good for parallel charging and may take some efforts to wire in series.


Yes, it can be used "as is" for parallel charging. But I think it should be possible to rewire it for seriell charging. I will get one and report back if it can be done.



NetKidz said:


> Any online store carries them? :naughty:
> 
> Thanks.


Yes. There is one here in switzerland but that ship only localy.

But there is also one in Germany. www.conrad.de

Unfortunate a direct link to the cradle dont work. 
Just search for 512034-62 (This is the order Number)


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## cy (Mar 23, 2007)

out standing!!! 

do I smell group buy?



Tronic said:


> I have found it!!!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## LuxLuthor (Mar 23, 2007)

Great find...you found the needle in the haystack. Hopefully this will work out, or give a platform to build upon. Great Post!!

Darn, I found this English link, but they don't ship to USA or Canada. This says it can connect multiple cradles in series too. I wonder who actually makes it, because I bet they have no idea how needed this is.


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## Nebula (Mar 23, 2007)

Caution - I opened the smaller of the two photos that Tronic posted in the other thread on this subject. My spysweeper went NUTS! Now my NIS jumped out to a full virus scan. Not making an accusation here, just letting you know that you may pick up something nasty if you open the links. KK


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## LuxLuthor (Mar 23, 2007)

That unit allows serial connection piggybacking units together to do 8 & 12 cell charging. It says it works for C & D cells, so I'm pretty sure this would be perfect.

I got the pdf file from the site, and uploaded it to my files site, so you can look at without concern of another trojan here.

I would think it already has serial slot to slot connections, or it wouldn't make much sense to promote the feature of being able to add a 2nd or 3rd cradle in series.

I can see a few improvements if someone else wanted to make a different enough version to avoid copyright infringement...or maybe the original manufacturer could do them. If we could get a GB with this the way it is, that would also be great.
1) Add a switch slider option to use slots in parallel or series.

2) Have a spring tension mechanism to give better lever contact (if not there already--I can't tell)

3) Instead of only having female plug jacks, have connection wire harness coming out of it, and another slide switch that selects # of tap leads that are occupied by cells. That would allow one harness connection to be used for 1, 2, 3, 4 cells.​


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## petrev (Mar 23, 2007)

Manufacturer
http://www.voltcraft.nl/

Instructions
http://www2.produktinfo.conrad.com/datenblaetter/500000-524999/512034-da-01-ml-Ladeadapter_f_Rundzellenakkus_de-en-fr.pdf

Retailer
www.conrad.nl
www.conrad.de
www.conrad.be

Order Info
http://www1.conrad.de/infocenter/islk/islk.php


AltaVista-Babelfish said:


> ~
> Conrad foreign service for orders and service inquiries ows ow country worries gladly our foreign service. They reach our multilingual team of telephones of Monday - Thursday 8,00 - 16,30 o'clock Friday 8,00 - 14,00 o'clock. Telephone: + 49 (0)96 04/40 88 80 fax: + 49 (0)96 04/40 86 60 email: [email protected]


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## LuxLuthor (Mar 23, 2007)

petrev said:


> Manufacturer
> http://www.voltcraft.nl/
> 
> Instructions
> ...



I can't get a good translation, Babelfish won't handle the link...but Petrev do you see one of those retailers that ship to the USA ? The Conrad.de did not give USA or Canada as possible destinations.


```
http://www1.be.conrad.com/scripts/wgate/zcop_be/~flN0YXRlPTIwNTczNzg5Mg==
```
This link says product is in *winkelwagen*....that doesn't sound good.


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## petrev (Mar 23, 2007)

LuxLuthor said:


> I can't get a good translation, but Petrev do you see one of those retailers that ship to the USA ? The Conrad.de did not give USA or Canada as possible destinations.


 
Hi LL

Did a cut and paste from the Terms/Shipping page above to get a translation.

Seems to suggest a phone call is needed ! 



Babel said:


> Conrad procurement service Conrad fulfills customer's requests world-wide and supplies to 150 countries.


 
Difficult to know but seems hopeful . . .

I could forward some if needed but probably cheaper if someone in DE or NL or BE posted on from their local delivery - Always costs more to UK ! 

The NL and BE prices are marginally lower ? local tax rate ?

I have a similarly designed Ansmann charger and the neg contacts are spring loaded and commoned - not enough space for 18670/17870 but design allows Dremel work on neg contact to get enough space !

Cheers Pete


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## petrev (Mar 23, 2007)

LuxLuthor said:


> I can't get a good translation, Babelfish won't handle the link...but Petrev do you see one of those retailers that ship to the USA ? The Conrad.de did not give USA or Canada as possible destinations.
> 
> 
> ```
> ...


 
http://www.dict.cc/?s=winkel+wagen

? ? ? Your guess is as good as mine 

Angle trolley ? Ah-Ha a Shopping cart 
http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afbeelding:Winkelwagen.jpg

Cheers Pete


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## DonShock (Mar 24, 2007)

Alin10123 said:


> I've actually got one in the works that's coming up here shortly. Just a few quick specs.
> 
> -Able to charge 1-6 lithiums at a time (with balance charging capability)
> -Can charge 1-14 nimh/nicd cells at a time
> ...


Specs look great! I really hope you go ahead and put a GB together on these.


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## LuxLuthor (Mar 24, 2007)

Here is another link but you have to input the product code in search.

http://www1.uk.conrad.com

512034-62

Still probably need to call them to see if they ship to USA


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## Nebula (Mar 24, 2007)

We have a couple of CPF'ers in Germany. I recently dealt with Martin on some lanterns. I could ask him to look into this if he has time. 

In addition, I will be in the UK from May 12 for three days. I will try to locate a couple of these to bring back. Of course that means I will have to haul them around Italy and Sicily for two weeks. But for you guys I am happy to take on the dirty jobs.


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## petrev (Mar 24, 2007)

LuxLuthor said:


> Here is another link but you have to input the product code in search.
> 
> http://www1.uk.conrad.com
> 
> ...


 
Hi LL

Thanks for that link (Why didn't UK Google find it ?)

OK - International Site (click the world map) but they won't ship to USA/Canada "Due to high liability reasons"

If you can buy in NL or DE (EU generally) then it is slightly cheaper than UK (must be an exchange rate thing as UK prices seem to be set at ~1.30€ to pound so ~10%+ now)

So best to find a friend in Germany etc. or failing that I can send on from UK a few test sample pieces if needed.

Cheers Pete


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## LuxLuthor (Mar 24, 2007)

*Pete, 

Yet another thing to thank all the lawyers in the USA for. :scowl:

If I can get you to get 2 or 3 of them to send me for testing, that would be fabulous. I can send you PayPal and my mailing address once you have a chance to check it out...including how much shipping would be.*





petrev said:


> Hi LL
> 
> Thanks for that link (Why didn't UK Google find it ?)
> 
> ...


----------



## Tronic (Mar 24, 2007)

Nebula said:


> Caution - I opened the smaller of the two photos that Tronic posted in the other thread on this subject. My spysweeper went NUTS! Now my NIS jumped out to a full virus scan. Not making an accusation here, just letting you know that you may pick up something nasty if you open the links. KK


Thanks for reporting this. I have removed the Datasheet in my original post and I have also changed the link for the pics. Sorry for any trouble!


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## LuxLuthor (Mar 24, 2007)

Tronic said:


> Thanks for reporting this. I have removed the Datasheet in my original post and I have also changed the link for the pics. Sorry for any trouble!



It wasn't your fault. Here is the link to the free Spybot Search & Destroy that works great.

It's all a part of finding the Holy Grail of charger cradles.

Oh also, here is another great free utility called "Crap Cleaner" that cleans out all those temp, cache, cookie, tracking, etc. etc. after you choose what you want removed.


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## Tronic (Mar 24, 2007)

petrev said:


> http://www.dict.cc/?s=winkel+wagen
> 
> ? ? ? Your guess is as good as mine
> 
> ...


Yes, "Winkelwagen" mean "shopping cart"
This message mean that you have to reload the onlineshop.
The onlineshop have a timeout of 25min and if your link is older than that you have to reload the shop.


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## Tronic (Mar 24, 2007)

I can also forward a few of this cradle for you guys. 
But the product is $2 cheaper in Germany. I have not compared the shipping cost yet.
Are there any German members that would take over a Groupbuy?

LuxLuthor,

I have already Spybot and a scan have found a few things. Thanks!


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## karlthev (Mar 24, 2007)

Just began reading this one--at least all the recent posts since yesterday. I'm sure in for an easier (safer?) approach to charging...never realized the potential problems... 

Karl


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## petrev (Mar 24, 2007)

Hi

I just got a BalancePro 6S charger last week and have been using it for my 3s2p M6R-Li pack (C-LiIons enroute . . .) and it is very controllable (charge rate) - not completely idiot proof - could set a very high charge rate ! for example, but perfectly balances cells and charges to 98% in about an hour - get great graphs and capacity data for each cell. I am currently building a mark 1 setup ( just got the right plugs through ) for a 2-6 cell array and these 4/1cell holders might well make for a really neat final version. A 4 cell version would be v. neat and could use the CellPro 4S for better value.

Cheers Pete


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## Tronic (Mar 24, 2007)

petrev said:


> Hi
> 
> I just got a BalancePro 6S charger last week and have been using it for my 3s2p M6R-Li pack (C-LiIons enroute . . .) and it is very controllable (charge rate) - not completely idiot proof - could set a very high charge rate ! for example, but perfectly balances cells and charges to 98% in about an hour - get great graphs and capacity data for each cell. I am currently building a mark 1 setup ( just got the right plugs through ) for a 2-6 cell array and these 4/1cell holders might well make for a really neat final version. A 4 cell version would be v. neat and could use the CellPro 4S for better value.
> 
> Cheers Pete


This is a review of this charger (but it is not labeld as BalancePro 6S)
http://www.trextuning.com/fma-cellpro_system.php


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## petrev (Mar 24, 2007)

Tronic said:


> This is a review of this charger (but it is not labeld as BalancePro 6S)
> http://www.trextuning.com/fma-cellpro_system.php


 
Hi Tronic

That's the one they (FMA) seem to have dropped the SkyVolt and have added an *A123* charging mode to the 6S.

Good review - you can see just what you can get.

The 4S version is even better (on board display) for less money if you only want to charge 4 at a time 3A max.

FMADirect.com have more info and stuff and I got my unit and cables from Aurorra.co.uk

Cheers Pete


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## Nebula (Mar 24, 2007)

Tronic - no worries. Lux is correct, it is not your fault. BTW- his advice on adaware and spyware cleaners is spot on. Freebies that work are always high on my list. Kirk 



Tronic said:


> Thanks for reporting this. I have removed the Datasheet in my original post and I have also changed the link for the pics. Sorry for any trouble!


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## jch79 (Mar 24, 2007)

So forgive my ignorance, but as I undersand it, this is just a cradle.. what charger do you hook this up to? The Tengery or Schulze? Is that all you'd need?

Thanks :wave:
john



Tronic said:


> I have found it!!!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## LuxLuthor (Mar 24, 2007)

We are really talking about the top image. You then need a charger that does individual cell balancing, and that has enough amp output to do however many cells (new "C" size are more demanding) you want to do at a time.

Some of the more advanced chargers require a separate balancing module, but there are models that come with that capability. I wish it was an easy...get this charger....type answer.

Some have suggested this might be all you need to do 4 cells safely, with the cradle. I ordered one of these, even though I already have a more elaborate Hyperion charger setup...to see how it works for the community.


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## cy (Mar 24, 2007)

running a Nippon America DVP-2212 regulated 20amp power supply here with Schulze 6-330 d 

delivering enough amps to support 4 C li-ion cells will not be a problem for me. Wall warts is not going to do it. I see no reason why used PC power supplies could not be used. 

Silver and Jar is bringing out information about under what conditions dendrites are formed. 

which is under trickle charge after cell is fully charged and during discharge at higher than current specified. 

normally lithium ions are transfered between cathode and anode in a rocker fashion. the metal lithium is normally never formed. however under above conditions the metal lithium is deposited forming as a dendrite growth. sharp points could then puncture insulating barrier, leading to rapid disassembly of cell. 

these larger cells should be charged at .5C to 1C. for 4 3amp cells that would be a whopping 12amps to parallel charge.


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## matrixshaman (Mar 24, 2007)

I haven't read the whole thread here but thought I'd throw this in. As far as cell holders go I've got an old charger made for alkalines and NiCd that can be converted but I checked eBay to see if I could find something similar and found these for around $20 and I've seen others for similar or less: Should be easy to get into it and disconnect THEIR charging power supply to hook your own up: Link to one example
Not sure but might be a way to save on the cell holder/charger - this one claims to even be a smart charger that does NiCd, NiMH, Alkaline and holds AAA, AA, C and D.


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## petrev (Mar 24, 2007)

Hi 

The DN/Tenergy as above is good for 2A 4Cells and that offer includes a small but hopefully adequate power supply.

FMA CellPro 4S - 3A upto 4Cells full auto or set it yourself rates and Data output - needs power supply

FMA BalancePro HD 6S - 0.5-10A 2-6cells set yourself max rate (pot=caution) and Data-Out - needs power supply adequate for number, size and speed desired

As stated by *cy* decent supply needed the bigger the cells and the more at once even in series balanced mode (power 4*3.3A*4.2V par or 3.3A*16.8 series = same)
eg. perfect conversion 3.3A for 4 cells is [email protected] input
6 cells = [email protected]

If we ever get D LiIons well . . . 5200mAh 



matrixshaman said:


> I haven't read the whole thread here but thought I'd throw this in. As far as cell holders go I've got an old charger made for alkalines and NiCd that can be converted but I checked eBay to see if I could find something similar and found these for around $20 and I've seen others for similar or less: Should be easy to get into it and disconnect THEIR charging power supply to hook your own up: Link to one example
> Not sure but might be a way to save on the cell holder/charger - this one claims to even be a smart charger that does NiCd, NiMH, Alkaline and holds AAA, AA, C and D.



The Universal charging cradle above is designed for series-charging so fits with balanced system perfectly (we hope) - Standard NiCad/NiMh chargers look the same but are parallel/common wired at the neg ends so would need major rewiring ( they often have a common metal bar accross all neg terminals holding the spring loaded cell clamps). If you have an old/broken one then would be a fun project. I've just got some 4way d-batt boxes to make a temp cheap starter cradle till the better stuff arrives as I expect my c-cells any day  

Hope this helps

Cheers Pete


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## LuxLuthor (Mar 24, 2007)

cy said:


> Silver and Jar is bringing out information about under what conditions dendrites are formed. which is under trickle charge after cell is fully charged and during discharge at higher than current specified.
> 
> normally lithium ions are transfered between cathode and anode in a rocker fashion. the metal lithium is normally never formed. however under above conditions the metal lithium is deposited forming as a dendrite growth. sharp points could then puncture insulating barrier, leading to rapid disassembly of cell.
> 
> these larger cells should be charged at .5C to 1C. for 4 3amp cells that would be a whopping 12amps to parallel charge.



I saw that beautiful color image of the crystal-like dendrite. I know Tom will give a great explanation, but is it basically something that happens only with trickle charging of Li-Ions? If so, any way to tell it is happening in terms of measurements?

I now understand the safety reason for doing the parallel charging, as long as the starting cell voltages are within 0.2V of each other, but if this 4-slot cradle works out with taps, is there any reason not to use charging C cells in series (with taps)? That might allow people to get a unit like the Tenergy as an easier to use, safe, and relatively affordable package?


----------



## LuxLuthor (Mar 24, 2007)

petrev said:


> Hi
> 
> The DN/Tenergy as above is good for 2A 4Cells and that offer includes a small but hopefully adequate power supply.
> 
> ...



Not having an electrical background, for some reason, I'm still not figuring out those series V * A calculations for "C Cells 3300mAh" example you posted. Here's my simpleton's understanding with my Hyperion 1210i setup if I was going to charge three of the 3300 mAh cells in series with balancer taps.

I would set it for 3S (11.1V) and up to 3.3A if I wanted to charge at 1C rate. I am assuming that this would be as safe (with balancer) as charging them in Parallel, but take longer.

My Pyramid power supply (which I got from CheapBatteryPacks.com on bottom of link here) says that it delivers 10A constant with 12A peak, so theoretically I could use it to charge three of the C cells in parallel.

If my understanding is correct, and if these 4 slot cradles are wired in series, and if balancer is used, wouldn't it allow people to use this Tenergy w/ 5A AC power supply package?

matrixshaman, I think there are a number of those kinds of holders that could be re-wired like you linked, but we are trying to find a relatively simple combination of cradle & balancing charger that will allow people to start charging most of their Li-Ion cells safely, & without having to remove the various PCB's, and rewiring correctly. Again, the most amazing thing to me is the total lack of a cradle setup for all the Li-Ion cells out there. Even the Voltic brand we are looking at specifically says it is for NiCd and NiMH on the package. Clearly, this is an opportunity for some manufacturer/dealer.

I'm also thinking it might be nice to have a safe way to use the 4 slot cradle we are looking at to switch it between series and parallel. That would open up even more capability for those who don't have (or want) a balancing charger to do multiple cells (assumes a higher Amp PS though).


----------



## petrev (Mar 24, 2007)

Hi LL

Yes - that package should be fine - I am just doing rough calculations using good old P=IV
eg P=2(A)*4(V)*4(cells)=32W
input=12V
Iin = 32/12 = 2.7A 
So 5A should be OK 
10A supply should be good for [email protected] 

but I am no expert . . .
Cheers Pete


----------



## petrev (Mar 25, 2007)

Hi All

*Heath Robinson designed Charger Cradle
*




*CellPro 4S PigTail*




* SIZES - C - D - 17500 - 17650 - * (Caution: sizes for demonstration purposes only / do not mix cells / LiIon charger not for NiMh / etc . . .)




*2 Cell Balanced Charging (spare nodes parked) * (Caution: do not attempt to charge NiMh with LiIon charger etc.)




Not Idiot Proof - but straightforward ? Oh Yes - I will label the Sockets - *. 0 . 1 . 2 . 3 . 4 .*

Available to purchase at cost (parts)  when I get my Voltcraft ones and wire them for 6S ! ! ! in the mean time - hope my "C" cells arrive Monday/SOON  

Cheers Pete


----------



## cy (Mar 25, 2007)

I'm so in for one!!!

thank YOU!



petrev said:


> Hi All
> 
> *Heath Robinson designed Charger Cradle
> 
> ...


----------



## petrev (Mar 25, 2007)

Thank you *cy*

*Now adapted to fit - Protected AW17670 and AW18670* (Thank you Mr. Dremel)





Cheers Pete


----------



## LuxLuthor (Mar 25, 2007)

Ha! Well that will do the job, and as they say "Necessity is the Mother of Invention." Rube Goldberg would be proud!


----------



## Nebula (Mar 25, 2007)

Pete - I have that same holder as well as a few single holders. I would like to take a shot at duplicating your work on this side of the pond. Can you can ID the circuit board and pig tails by their part numbers, and supplier? Better yet, can you post a diagram of your rig? 

BTW - Nice job. You may have more orders than you can keep up with. 

Cheers

Kirk


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## petrev (Mar 25, 2007)

Nebula said:


> Pete - I have that same holder as well as a few single holders. I would like to take a shot at duplicating your work on this side of the pond. Can you can ID the circuit board and pig tails by their part numbers, and supplier? Better yet, can you post a diagram of your rig?
> 
> BTW - Nice job. You may have more orders than you can keep up with.
> 
> ...



Hi Kirk
Thanks

FMADirect.com - (UK Aurorra.co.uk call Mike for any unlisted parts - very helpful)

*Deans Ultra, 5 Position Series Connector Module* Part Number: CMS-HC-5

*5 X Deans Ultra Connector (Female)* Part Number: DNS-7092

*Cellpro battery pigtail 7" * Part Number: CPBP7

Only connect PCB-Pos Terminals and Pos-lugs on female plugs.
Black and Red heat-shrink as per photo
Wire as per photo (colours as you wish)
Solder to Tabs (+) and (-) and the three spring connector wires for Nodes 1-2-3 (drill small holes at appropriate points)

4 x Black Philips head screws to mount carrier
4 x Smaller Philips head screws to mount Connector Module
2 x Plastic ring-standoffs to match height of under-side lugs

1 x Piece of 15mm plywood (Grey Speckled Melamine laminate optional)

4 x pieces 3.5mm rubber foam-mat support C-cells at correct height (optional)

Cuts to allow long sides to "flex" fit for 17670 and 18670 cells.

Number module connectors 0 - 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 
0=Neg 
N=Cell.N+ (or node.N)
Fit POS connection to last Cell+ and connect intervening nodes - see photo 4
Park unused Node-Connectors - see photo 4

Any questions - just ask

Cheers Pete


----------



## Nebula (Mar 25, 2007)

Pete - Many thanks for the excellent info, and thorough post. I will let you know how things turn out. Cheers. Kirk


----------



## petrev (Mar 26, 2007)

Nebula said:


> Pete - Many thanks for the excellent info, and thorough post. I will let you know how things turn out. Cheers. Kirk


 
Good luck - Keep us posted
Pete


----------



## Tronic (Mar 26, 2007)

A few pics of the voltcraft cradle that I have purchased today. 



 

 



with 10280 battery .....the max lenght is 62mm


 



the slots are all wired in serial


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## petrev (Mar 26, 2007)

Great Pics - Thanks Tronic

Must have a store near you ? I Just ordered some and it's 5-6 day delivery within UK.

Just about as good as we could expect. Like the wires down the springs - I'll get to that in a minute . . .

Some of my NiMh-D 7000mAh are 61.3mm long - so much for standards - Guess there will be some Dremeling to fit longer cells !

But overall they look great :goodjob: .

Now to my work today -
My "C" cells arrived - brilliant service *AW* - Ta.

They are great little beasts - look loverly.
So fitted into Batt-Cradle and start charging at 3A - All well - then ERROR.

Spoke to the man at SMADirect who designed them - great chap - and he looked at my photos from this thread and it turns out the BalancePro-6S is so clever that it worked out the springs are a bit on the resistive side and the Volt drop accross them upsets it so it won't charge at more than about 2A as it thinks it might melt some thin wires. This is very sensible as it can charge at upto 10A and that would heat things up very nicely.

Charges perfectly at 2A but still warns you about the "Thin" wires.

The CellPro-4S (also his baby) will apparently charge 4 cells at 3A without worries as it never expects to heat things up too much at that max-rate.

Charged my first 4 cells at 2A and this is what the data looks like



 . 



Started out reading about 45-50% "Fuel" 
Reached 98% at about 45 - 50 minutes at 2A rate
Topped off to 100% 4.2V after 1hr 16min

Charged a second set and put 5 in my 6C-5LiIon-IRC50.
Took a couple of clicks - no surprise - and it looks great.

More testing follows.

Back to the point - can't wait for my Voltcraft cradles to arrive . . .

Cheers Pete


----------



## aosty (Mar 26, 2007)

cy said:


> I'm so in for one!!!
> 
> thank YOU!



Me too, please!!


----------



## LuxLuthor (Mar 26, 2007)

Great pix, Tronic ! These will work perfectly, and be easily hooked up in series. I can see how easy it would be to convert one to parallel for those who don't have a balancing charger, but I'm seeing this as a nice combination with that Tenergy/converter package that was mentioned earlier.

It looks like my Pila 600s cells are 68mm long, so I'll need to get 7mm somewhere...probably the metal contact arms. Hmm...standing it next to a D-cell, it only looks about 5mm taller than the D cell nipple.


----------



## Nebula (Mar 26, 2007)

Lux, Pete and Tronic - I just want to THANK YOU for your dedication and determination in locating, testing and modifying these devices. I really do hope that we can find a way to get a GB on the holders. It would also be nice if we could have the option of purchasing the single cell holders as well. I am more than happy to assist in any way that I can. Just say the word. 

Thanks again for your efforts. We may just find a safer, albeit never entirely safe, method of charging our Li-ion cell. 

Cheers

Kirk


----------



## LuxLuthor (Mar 26, 2007)

Thanks Kirk. Through the kindness of some European members, I am getting samples of these trays. The RC Dealer/Supplier is following all these developments and talking to his company that has made a number of fabricated parts for him.

I have suggested these ideas to him so far (which may lead to an even better product):*1) Make sure they fit at least 67mm and probably a bit longer (I'm not sure what length including nipple of D Lithium cell is).

2) Have all the wires go into a single output that could connect to a standard balancing plug harness, rather than the female input plugs it has now.

3) Possibly put a switch for serial or parallel configurations....this may be too risky if incorrect selection is used however...so not sure about this one.

4) Put a switch to select number of active slots, which essentially will reduce any resistance of unneeded serial slots in the daisy chain.

5) Use adequate thickness of terminals and wiring to avoid any resistance issues

6) Preserve the ability to "Daisy Chain" 4 unit boxes to get 8 or 12 cell charging capability.

7) Use these types of sliding contacts which have a spring tension underneath.

8) Use a more heat resistant type plastic composite, to avoid warping over time.*​Any other ideas? Even if this guy doesn't want to make an improved version, we can probably make the Voltcraft one work...or find someone else to add enhancements...including the Voltcraft people...but I'm not talking about it with anyone else.


----------



## JimmyM (Mar 26, 2007)

LuxLuthor said:


> *1) Make sure they fit at least 67mm and probably a bit longer (I'm not sure what length including nipple of D Lithium cell is).*​



Check.


LuxLuthor said:


> * 2) Have all the wires go into a single output that could connect to a standard balancing plug harness, rather than the female input plugs it has now.*


Use banana connectors for pos and neg charger connections. Don't incorporate them into a balancing tap.
Use a 5 pin balancing tap connector on the back of each unit.


LuxLuthor said:


> * 3) Possibly put a switch for serial or parallel configurations....this may be too risky if incorrect selection is used however...so not sure about this one.*


Personally, I'd say skip the paralleling. Charge in series with balancing. That's what the balancing taps are for.


LuxLuthor said:


> *
> 4) Put a switch to select number of active slots, which essentially will reduce any resistance of unneeded serial slots in the daisy chain.*


This can be done automatically with minimal complexity, and it will allow daisy-chaining as well.


LuxLuthor said:


> *
> 5) Use adequate thickness of terminals and wiring to avoid any resistance issues*


Spaghetti wire will allow high current and free movement of the slider mechanisms. Chromed steel isn't exactly the best conductor. It would be nice to have copper alloy and then small brass or gold plated buttons for contacts.


LuxLuthor said:


> *
> 6) Preserve the ability to "Daisy Chain" 4 unit boxes to get 8 or 12 cell charging capability.*


This only needs 1 high current connection (banana plug jumper), and 4 "signal level" connections. It could be extended indefinitely. All the while incorporating the automatic switching functionality.


LuxLuthor said:


> *
> 7) Use these types of sliding contacts which have a spring tension underneath.*


Just make sure the spring tension is adequate but I like the metal versus plastic construction.


LuxLuthor said:


> *
> 8) Use a more heat resistant type plastic composite, to avoid warping over time.*


A very good idea. Maybe include a thermal fuse.​


----------



## LuxLuthor (Mar 27, 2007)

JimmyM said:


> Use banana connectors for pos and neg charger connections. Don't incorporate them into a balancing tap.
> Use a 5 pin balancing tap connector on the back of each unit.


I'm not clear on this point.



JimmyM said:


> Personally, I'd say skip the paralleling. Charge in series with balancing. That's what the balancing taps are for.


Check back at ya!



JimmyM said:


> This can be done automatically with minimal complexity, and it will allow daisy-chaining as well.


Would be nice, but again I'm not clear how....and I don't know much about electronics.



JimmyM said:


> This only needs 1 high current connection (banana plug jumper), and 4 "signal level" connections. It could be extended indefinitely. All the while incorporating the automatic switching functionality.


Again, not quite sure how it would work...only because of my own electrical ignorance. 

Thanks for input


----------



## cy (Mar 27, 2007)

charger/power supply combo choice will determine amps available. And number of cells your charger/PS will support in parallel. 

chargers with built-in fans like Triton are designed to handle higher current throughput. but need a balancing module to support balance leads. 

minimal costs seems to be Tenergy type 4 channel w/power supply for $65-$90 range. with hopefully upcoming balanced charging cradle.


----------



## JimmyM (Mar 27, 2007)

LuxLuthor said:


> I'm not clear on this point.


It would allow the positive lead (not jack/socket) of the cradle to plug into the standard banana jack on most RC type chargers. The negative should be a jack. If using one cradle, use a double ended banana plug jumper to go from cradle negative to charger negative. To add another cradle, just disconnect the negative jumper from the cradle and reconnect it to the negative of the second cradle. Then use the positive lead, which is hard wired to the cradle positive like the first unit, and plug it into the negative jack on the first unit. Then a small 4 conductor wire/jumper connects the two units to relay switching info.



LuxLuthor said:


> Would be nice, but again I'm not clear how....and I don't know much about electronics.


It's really simple. I mean really simple. The last cell, in whatever length cradle, switches the positive connection directly to itself and disables the positive connection to the bays before it. Once you see it in schematic form, it's like "Duh! Of course!"



LuxLuthor said:


> Again, not quite sure how it would work...only because of my own electrical ignorance.


Like above. Once you see it...


----------



## petrev (Mar 27, 2007)

Hi

Just a couple of points

Nodes are not just signal level - they are charging wires even the "thin" ones carry upto 4A.

I find these make interesting reading matter

BalancePro-6S Overview

BalancePro-6S Manual

CellPro-4S Manual

Large currents may only occur with seriously unbalanced packs but people will be charging individual cells that may have come from different torches and with different charges - these chargers should cope with that because the node connectors are more than just signal level paths effectively making them individual charging paths and hence can be carrying large currents under these circumstances. Am I going over this again ?

None of the 3 chargers so far mentioned - DN/Tenergy-4s(2A) or CellPro-4s(3A) or BalancePro-6s(10A) are fully auto sensing. They rely on the idea of "Packs" thus count nodes between NEG and POS with unused nodes Floating/NotConnected.
(Correction: DN/TEnergy is 4 individual chargers wired in series for concurrent multi-path charging ("parallel") via nodes of packs or cells in a cradle, and/or series charging of packs using power connectors. Hence will "detect" cells loaded in cradle )

Personally switches and sliders can be more likely to introduce errors - albeit not fatal as these chargers will just fail to charge if thay don't find everything to their liking - or just fail to charge some of the inserted cells.

To my mind (such as it is) the Voltcraft Cradle plus any of these chargers is just great -

One NEG - Input
A numbered NODE connector per inserted cell.
Link two Cradles together using stacking banana plug.
Last Cell - POS Connector.
I'll post a photo when I get mine.

Highly visual system - failsafe - too few cells loaded - charger reports cell mismatch !
too many cells in cradle(s) - extra cells don't get charged - and you have just put cells in bays where there is no node or POS connector !

Absolutely great if *JimmyM* or other can work out the electronics and we can get a fully auto - simple linking system together that would use these existing chargers.

The designer at FMADirect is also working on the next gen. charger 6 months down the line and we can no doubt let him know anything we might really like included - like full auto sensing for unfilled charge bays etc. These guys didn't really think of us, and our individual cells, so some of this may be the first they have heard of our particular needs. We are adapting RC technology to our needs but the next gen could easily ? be designed with us in mind if we work out what we want and let them know.

Cheers Pete


----------



## cy (Mar 27, 2007)

Pete, nice job! 

don't you just love it! what started out as warnings for unsafe Li-ion charging practices. is now leading into creation of an entirely different breed of charging systems for individual li-ion cells.


----------



## petrev (Mar 27, 2007)

Back to my day job

"Today I are mostly bin charging and discharging, batteries"

Fixed the spring resistance issue




Charged a set of four that had been discharged to auto cut-off in a 5C-IRC50
18.4V 5.12A Start - 16.6V 4.17A Finish 
(Note : IRC50 takes 2 blips to start ! ! ! Nice and bright - slightly more flood than 35W not as floody as 25W )

Start at 3.75V, 15% Charge, 3.3A rate 
(starts a bit lower but quickly ramps to set value)


 . 

 . 

 . 



34minutes later ~80%

72minutes 98% and fully balanced (CV charging - reducing current started at 45min)

97minutes 100% (topped off - cell 1 got a little bit more ! )

I guess this shows that at 4-5A draw the protection circuit cuts in due to voltage sag and a bit of power is left in the cells for lower current drain applications to use (or not)

and one from yesterday which seems to show that 1 cell cut off early for some reason (run time for IRC50 32Min and 33.5min for IRC35 ? ? ?)
IRC35 18.V 4.11A Start - 17.2V 3.8A

Still got to work out which cell ! ! ! Any clues/ideas ?




Anyway - seems to show divergent/errant cell/cells being balanced nicely
- I wonder what would happen in a pack being charged over time without any balancing ?

The Voltcraft Cradles I ordered are apparently en-route - I hope they get here soon . . .

Cheers Pete


----------



## JimmyM (Mar 27, 2007)

petrev said:


> (Note : IRC50 takes multi-multi blips to start ! ! ! Nice and bright but a bit difficult to get going )


OK. How about a PWM softstarter?
Use an International Rectifier PWM controller IRF3034 
and irlr7843 MOSFET. Don't worry about catch diodes or inductors.

Use a good size soft start capacitor and tie the FeedBack to ground. It will soft start all they way to 100% duty. The amps and time to soft start are irrelevant. Calculate the softstart capacitor to take about 100-250 mS (hell, 10 seconds is possible). No worries about the MOSFET burning up on repeated starts.
I'm still researching PWM controllers.


----------



## petrev (Mar 27, 2007)

Hi Jimmy

Sounds good to me: a PWM softstarter or regulator - I keep pestering Winny to make the PIR2 as I really would like to run a 65W-IRC regulated from 6 LiIons. I'm afraid my electronics skills are not up to it . . . So I'm just waiting . . .

Cheers Pete





JimmyM said:


> OK. How about a PWM softstarter?
> Use an International Rectifier PWM controller IRF3034
> and irlr7843 MOSFET. Don't worry about catch diodes or inductors.
> 
> ...


----------



## JimmyM (Mar 27, 2007)

petrev said:


> Hi Jimmy
> 
> Sounds good to me: a PWM softstarter or regulator - I keep pestering Winny to make the PIR2 as I really would like to run a 65W-IRC regulated from 6 LiIons. I'm afraid my electronics skills are not up to it . . . So I'm just waiting .
> Cheers Pete



We're a little off topic now, so I'll close with this... The PIR1/1.1/2 are great but complicated. They're real micro-controllers that are programmed, etc.
What I'm proposing is a hotdriver simple device, with power handling of the PIR. It's looking more and more like a single device wouldn't work for everything, or would be expensive. So it might work out that there would be a PWM device for 5-15 volt sources and one for 12-50 volts. Maybe one for 6V-40V would be possible but I'd have to work it all out with a separate LDO regulator to power the PWM controller, etc. The design I like is a Texas Instruments TL5001 with a TPS2816 MOSFET driver and an IRF2804 power MOSFET. There would only be one power level, not 3 like the PIR. It would have an adjustable softstart. No fancy computer program, etc. Just a nice, simple device. No catch diodes, no inductors in the power side of things. Only in a small "sample" circuit.
The major parts for "my design" cost about $5.59 to $8.42. The $8.42 parts add up to a serious power handling capability. Pack voltages up to 40V would be possible.


----------



## LuxLuthor (Mar 28, 2007)

I feel like Jimmy and Petrev were just talking in an obscure African dialect. I'm like...Yeah but where is the "On" switch?


----------



## karlthev (Mar 28, 2007)

Thanks! Which way does the pointy-end go? :lolsign: 


Karl


----------



## petrev (Mar 28, 2007)

LuxLuthor said:


> I feel like Jimmy and Petrev were just talking in an obscure African dialect. I'm like...Yeah but where is the "On" switch?



 

Actually I only know some of the the words of this obscure dialect - I can't make a sentence out of them !

Last bit of "Off Topic" if no one minds - let me know if you do and I'll edit this out and stick it somewhere else (no witty quips needed !-)

Jimmy simple 1 level, soft-start, PWM regulator - Gimme Now . . .

This was what I had thought on the idea previously - just an idea really ! trying to think of something that would be universal and not need special fitting - A Total-Drop-In Regulator (TDI-R ?) C-Tube size (?expanding springs for bigger tubes) with as many or few of these features as is possible or practical - I'm just an ideas man ? Maybe ? ? ?





Hope this isn't too annoying for anyone/everyone

Still waiting for the Voltcraft Cradles  

Back to the topic ! ! !

Pete


----------



## Tronic (Mar 29, 2007)

My "C" cells arrived today. And they fit perfectly in the cradle! :rock:
Now I have to wait for the Tenergy charger that in on the way.



 



petrev,
My local Conrad store is 5km away.  
Your idea of a PWM regulator look very good! Paypal ready.


----------



## petrev (Mar 29, 2007)

Hi Tronic

Looks perfect  

We don't have any stores over here just mail order - lucky you.
Where is your T-Energy coming from ?

Yep - Hope someone makes a drop-in regulator (soon)  

Cheers Pete


----------



## 65535 (Mar 29, 2007)

You know what would work, after reading my old favorite RCgroups.com forum, I decided that it would be best to use a CV VC parallel balancer, you would need a high current power supply set to 4.2 volts. and you would dial in the charge current depending on the number of cells and how fast you want to charge them. You could add a simple circuit that would turn on a green LED when it hits 4.2 volts, which like wise will cut the output power down to about .5 amps or less. You could use that battery tray if you just rewired it for parallel holding. Probably what I will do after I get some stuff done first.


----------



## LuxLuthor (Mar 29, 2007)

Got my Tenergy with smaller AC power adapter, and this combined with cradle is gonna be a great turnkey combo-package for simple, safe, 4 cell uses...and for portable on the road applications (with AC or 12 car battery). Instructions are in a Chinese version of English that is best described as "Chenglish."

Trying to figure out what all those improvements that Petrev, Tronic, and Jimmy are talking about.


----------



## jch79 (Mar 29, 2007)

I love the collaboration that's going on here! :thumbsup: CPF at its finest.

 john


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## Tronic (Mar 29, 2007)

petrev said:


> Where is your T-Energy coming from ?Cheers Pete


b-p-p.com $65 shipped worldwide.


----------



## petrev (Mar 30, 2007)

LuxLuthor said:


> Got my Tenergy with smaller AC power adapter, and this combined with cradle is gonna be a great turnkey combo-package for simple, safe, 4 cell uses...and for portable on the road applications (with AC or 12 car battery). Instructions are in a Chinese version of English that is best described as "Chenglish."
> 
> Trying to figure out what all those improvements that Petrev, Tronic, and Jimmy are talking about.


 
Hi Lux

Page 22 post #327
English translation . . . Thank you RS



Tronic said:


> b-p-p.com $65 shipped worldwide.


 
It's a steal . . .


----------



## LuxLuthor (Mar 31, 2007)

Tronic said:


> A few pics of the voltcraft cradle that I have purchased today.
> 
> ..the max length is 62mm



But eyeballing, it looks like the actual space between plastic ends is more like 70mm....so would need to dremel back the metal contact arm, or add an additional contact for longer cells.

The other thing that Jimmy and I are realizing with the Tenergy/DN charger is you don't need any auto-sensing. You can run a single 5-wire harness coming from the holder's 5 contact points, and plug it into the 5 pin (4 cell) input slot on the Tenergy.

Because the Tenergy/DN is comprised of 4 separate parallel chargers, it is able to independently test each incoming lead, and will ignore "empty leads" where no battery is being used...say in slot 3 and 4.

It should be easy to solder a 5 wire harness that attaches to the Neg-Pos-Pos-Pos-Pos contacts on bottom of cradle and goes into the JST connector on the Tenergy. This would not use the top plug holes on the cradle...since the Tenergy uses the "tap wires" we would install from bottom into harness.

For a Hyperion/Schultze type charger where you wanted to use more current, you could attach the main Red(+)/Black(-) leads into banana jack holes on top of holder, and balancing leads to our custom harness. 

It's not that much harder to piggyback a 2nd cradle in series to get an 8-S setup using a wire with dual banana jacks stuck into neg/pos holes of adjacent holders, and another set of tap wires...for those with more advanced chargers.


----------



## petrev (Mar 31, 2007)

Hi Lux

Well I've spent some quality time over on the RCGroup forum and its well worth it, in research terms. So 37 pages later (actually rather more with all the cross links ! and related threads !!! ) I finally have a good idea of the options for us as flashlight people - to my mind anyway.

The DN/TEnergy is 4 charging channels that charge independently and work in a temporal way in "parallel" but are physically wired in series. This means that they will charge 4 single cells each to their own full value in their own time - eg. poor cell charges quickly - bigger cell more slowly etc. so you can mix different cells of different capacities, and/or charge states, at will - only proviso being that max. charge rate must be less than the 1C rate of lowest nominal capacity cell being charged for safety and longevity.

The series wiring of the charge channels means that you can also charge series packs that have no balancing taps eg..HDM6 using say output-pins 3+5 giving the 8.4V required - it will read as two cells with the voltage split across them on the display. At the same time you could also charge 2 individual cells in the Voltcraft Charger cradle (or just one cell of course) using output-pins 1-2-3. Personally, having now seen how unbalanced my cells get in normal use, while not even trying to series charge them, I would wire in a tap/node on any series pack that I had, even the semi-balanced HDM6. 

Note: I was told by an "expert" that packs should always be described NsXp eg. 2s3p but I feel the order should reflect the true wiring of the pack so an FM 2 high carrier pack with no centre plate is a 2s3p ie. 2cells in series 3 parallel times (2-cells on top of each other, stacked in a triangle) while the newer model HDM6 is a 3p2s pack as it apparently has a balancing disk in the middle so has 3-cells in parallel, twice. The first configuration probably shouldn't be pack charged as could go way out of balance while the second config. is slightly better in that each set of 3 cells is intrinsically balanced - each set can still get out of balance with the other though !

So for everyday use the DN/TEnergy is the one for cell charging. 
Auto cell count - use any available bay at will.
Charge a pack and some cells at the same time.
Mix cells - just remember to set the right max. rate ! Adaptable to series and/or "parallel". 
Useful / Annoying bleeper ! ! ! 
Relatively quick 2A max. rate (Can be faster than 3A rate using a balance charger if charging very unbalanced cells - eg. part used and fully discharged from different flashlights). 
Good display with reasonable amount of info.
Nice cheap package with power supply (and Voltcraft/JimmyM/LuxLuthor enhanced-system cradle) for use at home, or in the field.
All connections are full 2A potentially and wires need to be fitted as such or better. Note: Voltcraft Cradle is rated at 3A.


The FMA/CellPro/BalancePro models have some advantages, mostly for pack use so I can see why so many RC-Bods like them. 
Auto 1C mode. (Auto1.5C mode not for us yet) [NOT BP-6S]
Other pre-set modes for maintainance etc. [NOT BP-6S]
They will not over charge in cold climate use.
Will restore fairly (0.5V +) over-discharged cells/packs. 
If a pack/set of cells is removed before it is fully charged then it will normally be better balanced than it was before charge and may be better balanced than at a similar stop-point using "parallel" charging.(Moral: Don't stop 'til they're all full)
Can use long charging/node leads and the CellPro/BalancePro detect cell voltages correctly and balance-charge accordingly - not much of an issue with the Voltcraft Cradle and appropriate leads.
Have the capability to produce great graphs of your charging experiments. You can even collect sets of data over time for each pack/set of cells and keep an eye on how they are performing !
BalancePro-6S will charge big cells (5500 D whan available ?) faster and upto 6 at a time but no onboard display panel.

I'm sure there are other pros and cons . . . :thinking: 

but these are the main ones I can think of - hope it helps . . .

Cheers Pete


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## Tronic (Mar 31, 2007)

petrev, Thank you very much for the research in the RCGroups! :thumbsup:
This are very usefull inforamtion!


LuxLuthor said:


> But eyeballing, it looks like the actual space between plastic ends is more like 70mm....so would need to dremel back the metal contact arm, or add an additional contact for longer cells.


The space between plastic ends is 73mm. 
A little dremel and the 18650 fit perfectly. Even a Pila 600P (68mm long) fit with a modified negative contact.
If you have flat top cells you must also cut the fins on the + contact.


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## LuxLuthor (Mar 31, 2007)

petrev said:


> Well I've spent some quality time over on the RCGroup forum and its well worth it, in research terms. So 37 pages later (actually rather more with all the cross links ! and related threads !!! ) I finally have a good idea of the options for us as flashlight people - to my mind anyway.


Yeah, same here. Long read, but very educational in many respects.



petrev said:


> The DN/TEnergy is 4 charging channels that charge independently and work in a temporal way in "parallel" but are physically wired in series. This means that they will charge 4 single cells each to their own full value in their own time - eg. poor cell charges quickly - bigger cell more slowly etc. so you can mix different cells of different capacities, and/or charge states, at will - only proviso being that max. charge rate must be less than the 1C rate of lowest nominal capacity cell being charged for safety and longevity.


Understood and agree.



petrev said:


> The series wiring of the charge channels means that you can also charge series packs that have no balancing taps eg..HDM6 using say output-pins 3+5 giving the 8.4V required - *it will read as two cells with the voltage split across them on the display*. At the same time you could also charge 2 individual cells in the Voltcraft Charger cradle (or just one cell of course) using output-pins 1-2-3. Personally, having now seen how unbalanced my cells get in normal use, while not even trying to series charge them, I would wire in a tap/node on any series pack that I had, even the semi-balanced HDM6.


Well you are back to talking about series charging again, which I want to avoid. Yes it will charge 2S...but divides the current and assumes they are each at the same average voltage..which is a mistake. 

Even the HDM6 without true per cell taps (which AWR does not want to appreciate in other thread on Li-Ion balance charging) is not an ideal setup for charging....similar to the XeRay 4S-3P setup that only has PCB balancing that compares each of the 4S against the other two...better than no balancing, but not ideal.

Ideally, I would like to try and figure out a way to safely run individual cell taps to the FM battery holder contacts....short of that, I am ALWAYS going to remove and individually charge each cell in Pila charger, or together in our Voltic type cradle setup. Have you figured out a good way to drill some holes in FM's battery packs to run wires, possible take out the connectors to drill a hole in side for spot weld, and then get wires out the bottom tailcap hole. I'm trying to think of good ways to do it without have a harness dongle sticking out.



petrev said:


> Note: I was told by an "expert" that packs should always be described NsXp eg. 2s3p but I feel the order should reflect the true wiring of the pack so an FM 2 high carrier pack with no centre plate is a 2s3p ie. 2cells in series 3 parallel times (2-cells on top of each other, stacked in a triangle) while the newer model HDM6 is a 3p2s pack as it apparently has a balancing disk in the middle so has 3-cells in parallel, twice. The first configuration probably shouldn't be pack charged as could go way out of balance while the second config. is slightly better in that each set of 3 cells is intrinsically balanced - each set can still get out of balance with the other though !


I don't think it makes that much difference if you do "PS" or "SP"
as long you know the numbers of each.

Fortunately, I didn't get entangled in the HDM6 or Nano mess...so I'm not going to say much about the less than ideal safe charging scenario of such a pack...nor AWR's attempt to justify non-balanced Li-Ion charging.



petrev said:


> So for everyday use the DN/TEnergy is the one for cell charging.
> Auto cell count - use any available bay at will.
> Charge a pack and some cells at the same time.
> Mix cells - just remember to set the right max. rate ! Adaptable to series and/or "parallel".
> ...


Good to know. You can plug the beeper if you want to decrease volume...but it is about as loud as my Hyperion 1210i.



petrev said:


> The FMA/CellPro/BalancePro models have some advantages, mostly for pack use so I can see why so many RC-Bods like them.
> Auto 1C mode. (Auto1.5C mode not for us yet) [NOT BP-6S]
> Other pre-set modes for maintainance etc. [NOT BP-6S]
> They will not over charge in cold climate use.
> ...


True about those points, but for me...using the Tenergy/DN unit with 4 battery cradle is a nice solution. For more advanced, I forsee the need for a 6 battery holder (to match up with the 6S output of my Hyperion LBA-10 Balancer) with primary pos/neg lead charging & tap leads for balancing. Would need to wire it for higher amp into the cradle safely.


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## LuxLuthor (Mar 31, 2007)

Tronic said:


> The space between plastic ends is 73mm.
> A little dremel and the 18650 fit perfectly. Even a Pila 600P (68mm long) fit with a modified negative contact.
> If you have flat top cells you must also cut the fins on the + contact.



Sweet. Now I think the only other improvement I would want is to make a single harness that goes to the Tenergy/DN 4 cell white port. No need for the autosensing modification that Jimmy mentioned for this charger.

Still would like to have a better 6 cell solution for primary (high current) pos/neg lead charging, with secondary balancing tap leads to use with better quality balancing chargers. Hopefully with these customizations we can get a manufacturer interested in cranking some of these out. I would think this is a pretty low cost item.


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## petrev (Apr 1, 2007)

LuxLuthor said:


> Yeah, same here. Long read, but very educational in many respects.
> 
> 
> Understood and agree.
> ...


Yes - Series Charging - Don't Do It - That's what this is all about.
Just trying to explain to people what the heck this meant in the DN blurb . . .


DN-BLURB said:


> Charge mode of the balanced parallel connection
> charge in parallel connection for one single cell or four single cells at one time
> charge in parallel connection for a pile of two series-wound lithium cells or two piles of two series-wound lithium cells at one time
> charge in parallel connection for a pile of three series-wound lithium cells or one single lithium cell at one time
> charge in parallel connection for a pile of four series-wound lithium cells





LuxLuthor said:


> Even the HDM6 without true per cell taps (which AWR does not want to appreciate in other thread on Li-Ion balance charging) is not an ideal setup for charging....similar to the XeRay 4S-3P setup that only has PCB balancing that compares each of the 4S against the other two...better than no balancing, but not ideal.


Yes - Need to add a tap/node conn. to the central copper disk that I believe he now puts in the HDM6 packs. You can then add a balanced connector to the side of the pack sited like the M6-R connector is. Need to chop out some of the shrink wrap. (Lucky you to not get involved by the way).



LuxLuthor said:


> Ideally, I would like to try and figure out a way to safely run individual cell taps to the FM battery holder contacts....short of that, I am ALWAYS going to remove and individually charge each cell in Pila charger, or together in our Voltic type cradle setup. Have you figured out a good way to drill some holes in FM's battery packs to run wires, possible take out the connectors to drill a hole in side for spot weld, and then get wires out the bottom tailcap hole. I'm trying to think of good ways to do it without have a harness dongle sticking out.


Not sure which exact packs ? Part answer - I made some disks, (but I can't find them now !) Copper or PCB, that fit in the plastic parts - you have to Dremel out a channel in the thin fillets - they end up looking like this



The disk fits in the three-lobed hole and is 3 joined circles with flat outer edges and a hole in the middle - add solder pips or soldered magnets as appropriate to make contacts (plus common the two sides of PCB version). This commons the 3 cells at each level (add disk at each level of longer packs) and provides a tap point. You can run a wire through one of the screw holes at the end as only 2 screws will definitely suffice (I lost one for a while and it still stayed together) and run the wire if needed through a similar hole drilled in any intervening middle plastic pieces. 
Maybe try to fit a little 3-pin white plug on the side of the pack but don't know if enough room in a Mag ? Otherwise ? ? ? Harness dongle ? or Mini Stereo Jack ? or ? ? ? 



LuxLuthor said:


> I don't think it makes that much difference if you do "PS" or "SP"
> as long you know the numbers of each.



True the numbers mean the same in overall voltage and capacity terms but the order tells the wiring/assembly pattern of the pack/carrier.
For example take the FM 2s3p carrier I was just modifying to centre balancing-tap - it starts out 2s3p and becomes 3p2s.



LuxLuthor said:


> Fortunately, I didn't get entangled in the HDM6 or Nano mess...so I'm not going to say much about the less than ideal safe charging scenario of such a pack...nor AWR's attempt to justify non-balanced Li-Ion charging.


  




LuxLuthor said:


> Good to know. You can plug the beeper if you want to decrease volume...but it is about as loud as my Hyperion 1210i.


Yes - just mentioned so people are aware - I put gaffer tape/+felt over these sort of things . . . but some people find them useful . . .




LuxLuthor said:


> True about those points, but for me...using the Tenergy/DN unit with 4 battery cradle is a nice solution. For more advanced, I forsee the need for a 6 battery holder (to match up with the 6S output of my Hyperion LBA-10 Balancer) with primary pos/neg lead charging & tap leads for balancing. Would need to wire it for higher amp into the cradle safely.



Absolutely - This DN/TEnergy+PS +Voltcraft combo is just great for simplicity and utility and price. 

Like you said - can be improved but for now great. Fitting a little 5-pin socket somewhere would be a simple little mod for greatly improved neatness and then . . . Up-grade the internal wiring (will the contacts be up to it or will they need to be done too? Brass ? Nickle plated copper) Weld 2 cradles together for a 6 bay system (or 8) and . . . . . . .

Keep up the good work Lux

Pete


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## LuxLuthor (Apr 1, 2007)

I'm curious to see more how you did the FM battery packs. There are many types, including those that stack batteries on top end to end, others have the terminal posts in the plastic. I can take some pictures of all the various FM battery packs I have.


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## petrev (Apr 1, 2007)

LuxLuthor said:


> I'm curious to see more how you did the FM battery packs. There are many types, including those that stack batteries on top end to end, others have the terminal posts in the plastic. I can take some pictures of all the various FM battery packs I have.



Hi Lux

I only have one of the simple carriers for 6x17500 so it's designed to be dis-assembled for charging. It's a parallel pack like this 





but with no tail charger socket - so I don't know how i could adapt one like that ?

The disk fits in on the neg side of the middle plastic piece - connection wire to be attached and routed through a hole in the plastic piece in one of the big triangular areas - if you get my drift ? see below ! Other tap wires could be trapped between plastic and end pieces at appropriate point and routed similarly.





To make a disk I made a template by rubbing graphite (pencil) on the newly Dremeled piece and transfered it onto a piece of paper as shown above.

The plastic pieces shown are for illustration purposes only - the applicable piece(s) will be the one (or two) in the middle of the pack to be adapted.

Cut commoning disk to fit plastic with connection pad next to hole to be used/drilled. Centre hole can be a simple drill hole (not necessary to be triangular). Cut slot / Drill diagonal hole in plastic piece to fit disk and pass connecting wire through as needed. Solder connection to disk and common both faces if using PCB. Build solder pads and/or solder magnets to provide suitable contact points for cells on both faces.



Any pictures of your FM packs would always be interesting . . .

Cheers Pete


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## petrev (Apr 1, 2007)

Tronic said:


> petrev, Thank you very much for the research in the RCGroups! :thumbsup:
> This are very useful information!
> The space between plastic ends is 73mm.
> A little dremel and the 18650 fit perfectly. Even a Pila 600P (68mm long) fit with a modified negative contact.
> If you have flat top cells you must also cut the fins on the + contact.



Forgot to say - :goodjob: 

Quality bit of Dremel work there Tronic - especially the removal of those pesky anti reverse-insertion fins ! ! !

Did you remove the metal neg-contact sliders to modify them (even more kudos if you did them in-situ ! ! !)

Pete


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## LuxLuthor (Apr 1, 2007)

I think this is most of the Li-Ion lineup that covers his variations. click for larger images. I took two shots of each, except first one. I was thinking on some cases it might be possible to remove his contact brass contacts, and if thick enough, possibly drill a small hole in side, and solder wire into hole, then figure out how to get wire into a channel in the plastic, and down into harness. 

In other versions, it may require a thin flat piece of round copper with a tiny side tab that the wire would be soldered onto. This copper wafer would become the new battery contact. in the holder. Some like the 3P-1S holder can be charged in holder...probably can be dropped into the voltic cradle simulating a single D cell, since the 3P together are self-balancing. I have two 3D 1185 Mags that each have three of the 3P-1S holders from this thread. What I had been doing is charging two at a time in Pila. So with the Voltic cradle, I can charge all 9 at once, since they will appear as 3 x D cells. Each of them is a 17500 1100 mAh Li-Ion, so it should appear as a 3300 mAh single D cell for each one to the charger.


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## paulsl (Apr 1, 2007)

That Tenergy charger is available at Battery Junction for less. $79 - 5% CPF discount. I haven't bought it yet but Matt told me he has several holders for it.

Thought you'd like to know.




cy said:


> Tenergy li-ion charger with load balancing with four LDC to monitor output and a 5amp 12v power supply.... all for $89 looks too good to be true. http://www.all-battery.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=1644
> 
> I've already got a Schulze, so I'm already covered. but for someone without a suitable charger for C li-ion. this could be the base for a multi-cell balanced charger mod.
> 
> ...


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## petrev (Apr 1, 2007)

Thanks Lux

Great pieces of metalwork milling and logic !

3p1s . . . Yes - hopefully just fits in the Voltcraft cradle like a D

3s1p . . . I might just disassemble !

3s3p . . . Fit two balancing disks (as per previous post) in two middle plastic guides (as long as there is movement for assembly) and attach node leads - I'd probably make up a lead with a Charging jack and node connector(s)

4s2p . . . More fun ! Nodes 1 and 3 are in the middle and need to be paired appropriately and taken to node leads or such. Node 2 is all 4 pads at the Pos head end so the two strips need to be commoned and a node lead etc. Connector strip at tail end is common POS. Again maybe Charge lead and this time 3-node connector(s) my thought - but I'm sure there must be a few other ways to skin both these cats !

Hope to see what you come up with soon.

Describing things is just not as easy to see as pictures.

Cheers Pete


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## petrev (Apr 1, 2007)

paulsl said:


> That Tenergy charger is available at Battery Junction for less. $79 - 5% CPF discount. I haven't bought it yet but Matt told me he has several holders for it.
> 
> Thought you'd like to know.



Cheaper inc. post . . .


Tronic post #120 said:


> b-p-p.com $65 shipped worldwide.




AllBattery.com offer is $89 including Power Supply 


cy said:


> Tenergy li-ion charger with load balancing with four LDC to monitor output and a 5amp 12v power supply.... all for $89 looks too good to be true. Charger +PS Combo



Check availability . . . Take your pick !


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## LuxLuthor (Apr 2, 2007)

Your link was bad to the $89 All-Battery.com combo package. I got one from them too, and has the advantage of a better translated manual.

I don't see any cradles that are half as good as the Voltic model, and that one needs some minor improvements to work.


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## cue003 (Apr 2, 2007)

Excellent work by everyone. Wealth of information. I do have a couple questions....

1) Thanks for the all the charger links Petrev. Are you saying that your last link is the only one of the 3 so far that actually comes with the power supply? The cheapest being $65 or so but does that also come with the power supply? I am unable to tell from the link.

2) it seems that every site that lists the Tenergy/DN charger also has a drop down for what they are calling Thunder power adapter options..... are any of these needed for charging any of the battery stuff we are talking about?

3) it seems straight forward and easy to get the charger, but how do we get the cradles and then wire them up to the appropriate connector? 

4) how do we jumper more than one cradle to say total 8 devices and what is needed from the charger side? Will it still plug into the "4 connector" option on the charger?

5) will the standard power supply that comes with the Tenergy be able to support 8 batts charging at once? ex. 3x18650 and 3x"C" and 2x17500

6) can the cradle hold R123 cells and RCR2 cells as well? Can the charging rate be adjusted to charge these cells safely?

7) this will only be for charging Li-ion correct? No NiMH at all, right?

Thanks and sorry for the "newbie" charging questions.


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## cy (Apr 2, 2007)

cue, short answer is power supply that comes with tenergy is marginal at best. 

safest way to charge li-ion according to silver is parallel. but drawback is higher amps, charger and power supply has to support. 

since I've already got schulze and triton with 20amp power supply. it's not an issue for me. but wall wart type power supplies can only deliver so much current. 

tenergy unit has four channels, not sure how much current each channel will support with original power supply. not much chance original power supply will support charging 8 large li-ion cells. 

it would not be hard to find out. post this question on RC forums. 

Drawback of multi-cell li-ion packs has always been about safety of charging packs. higher the number in series, higher risks of charging in series without balancing. 

safest of course is to charge in singles. not too practical when you've got 6+ cells to charge. 

if I didn't already have schulze and triton. I'd still purchase them over tenergy unit. no way I'd invest this kind of funds and be only able to charge li-ion cells. being able to charge other chemistries is a requirement for me. 

A123 cell technology is maturing fast. having a charger that can be upgraded via firmware is bonus.

since this discussion is resulting a custom balanced charger cradle that can charge loose li-ion cells. we are all newbies on this topic...


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## LuxLuthor (Apr 2, 2007)

Cy is mostly correct on everything, but let me give you a bit more specific answers point by point.



cue003 said:


> 1) Thanks for the all the charger links Petrev. Are you saying that your last link is the only one of the 3 so far that actually comes with the power supply? The cheapest being $65 or so but does that also come with the power supply? I am unable to tell from the link.


This link from all-battery.com is the only one I have seen that includes the 5A output wall transformer into an $89 package. You can get the same AC==>DC 5A PS for $20 on the same site, so your only savings would be combined shipping. The $65 offers do not include the PS...but you do not need this transformer PS if you already have a 12V PS. The Tenergy accepts 11 to 15V input power source.



cue003 said:


> 2) it seems that every site that lists the Tenergy/DN charger also has a drop down for what they are calling Thunder power adapter options..... are any of these needed for charging any of the battery stuff we are talking about?


The Thunder power adapter is only a specific plug for that common RC LiPo battery pack connector, so they can plug it right into their pack. None of those connectors is needed for our purpose. We are connecting whatever charger (Schultze, Hyperion, Tenergy/DN, etc.) to a custom battery cradle.



cue003 said:


> 3) it seems straight forward and easy to get the charger, but how do we get the cradles and then wire them up to the appropriate connector?


Ahhh....now you put your finger on the dilemma. Nowhere in the entire world has anyone made a universal cradle to accept the various sizes of Li-Ion cells (i.e. all those sold by AW) for loose cell charging. Tronic recently found the cradle we are all excited about made by German Voltcraft company for NiMH/NiCd common sizes.

It needs some modifications even as a temporary measure to be able to fit Li-Ion batteries. The cradle states it has a 3A current limit for safety reason. They used 22g wire which can be easily replaced with 14-16g which should resolve most of the 0.5 to 1C needs we would want. The tap leads do not need much more than 16-18g, but from Jack to terminal, and terminal to terminal, I think 14g would be better for using a higher power Schultze/Triton/Hyperion setup.

During the wire replacement, I would additionally solder a set of 5 color coded wires that would exit the box through a drilled hole, wrapped in shrink, and terminated either with plain soldered wire ends, or into a JST connector that would fit into the 4 cell input on Tenergy/DN. These are the so called "Tap Leads" and only need to carry 2-3A of current.



cue003 said:


> 4) how do we jumper more than one cradle to say total 8 devices and what is needed from the charger side? Will it still plug into the "4 connector" option on the charger?


This cradle is wired in series, so to connect two cradles (8 cells in series), you only need to insert dual end banana jack wire from last POS hole on cradle one to first NEG hole on top of cradle two.

The Tenergy/DN as CY says has a 4 cell limitation of its output. It charges through "tap leads" which are generally lower current wires in LiPo RC packs. It has a maximum of 2A output per cell, but 6A total over 4 cells (i.e. 1.5A max output if 4 cells used)...which is further limited to 5A output if the $20 transformer is used with the Tenergy. 

Keep in mind that the Pila and AW's charger only put out 0.6A, so this is still quite a bit faster.



cue003 said:


> 5) will the standard power supply that comes with the Tenergy be able to support 8 batts charging at once? ex. 3x18650 and 3x"C" and 2x17500


It is always best to only charge like sized batteries, but because this Tenergy/DN is 4 parallel chargers in one unit, it is able to charge 4 different size cells, but only at the same amp rate for all of them. You have to choose the safest 0.5 to 1C rate for the smallest cell used...but you could charge three C size Li-Ions at 2A each. It senses and treats each battery separately, and terminates each at 4.2V. 

It would work fine to use one of FM's D-cell size 3.7V battery holder that has all 3 x 17500 (1100 mAh) cells facing same direction in parallel. It would see that as a single cell with 3300 mAh and would charge them in that holder.



cue003 said:


> 6) can the cradle hold R123 cells and RCR2 cells as well? Can the charging rate be adjusted to charge these cells safely?


There are problems getting some batteries to fit, which is ultimately why we need a properly made Li-Ion holder to include all the sizes. For example a 2/3A NiMH battery will not fit in this, nor a SF123A cell. The back metal spring loaded contact arm also needs to be manually shortened to allow the 67mm 18650 longer type Li-Ion cell. With modifications of the plastic tray & metal contact arm, all these cells can fit. Ideally, a properly made unit would be ideal. They just don't exist anywhere yet.



cue003 said:


> 7) this will only be for charging Li-ion correct? No NiMH at all, right?


This charger is only for Li-Ion/LiPo charging. Cy makes a good point, but I see this or the Cell-Pro 4S (which outputs 3A max/cell) as a safe, entry level solution for Li-Ion charging...way faster than the Pila 2 at a time manner. This also gives a portable way to charge your Li-Ion cells, since either the A/C transformer or your car battery can be used. 

Not that many CPF users will want to venture into the Schultze/Hyperion/Triton using a balancer & the main power POS/NEG charging leads type setup. 

It is more complicated, more expensive, and requires careful operation. However once we replace with heavier guage wire, you could connect two of these cradles and use banana connectors from your Schultze/Triton into the jacks for higher AMP charging rates, and still have the separate balancing wires coming out to balance at higher charge rates. Even with those better chargers, there is still no easy to use universal battery cradle.


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## karlthev (Apr 2, 2007)

Well, that's certainly helpful!


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## cy (Apr 2, 2007)

let's put things into perspective size wise for power supplies. 

this is a real 8amp power supply. my 20amp regulated PS is larger yet. 
another common item size wise is a PC power supply which typically supplies 15-20amps.

wall warts are a fraction of this size. 5amps from a wall wart is outstanding. assuming it's correct and not rated at peak only.


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## petrev (Apr 2, 2007)

cue003 said:


> Excellent work by everyone. Wealth of information. I do have a couple questions....
> 
> 1) Thanks for the all the charger links Petrev. Are you saying that your last link is the only one of the 3 so far that actually comes with the power supply? The cheapest being $65 or so but does that also come with the power supply? I am unable to tell from the link.



A. No PS for $65 - only combo from All-Battery found so far. Comes with Croc-clips as standard.




cue003 said:


> 2) it seems that every site that lists the Tenergy/DN charger also has a drop down for what they are calling Thunder power adapter options..... are any of these needed for charging any of the battery stuff we are talking about?



A. As of Right Now - You have to make up a lead suitable for the charger and cradle.
2+ ways but favourites are 
1) Green output socket to 4mm Bananas via 5 leads (PVC/Silicon test lead wire) 
2) Solder on multi pin JST lead to inside of cradle and run out as flying lead to plug straight into Charger 4-cell output (or fit a multi-pin socket to cradle and use appropriate lead.)




cue003 said:


> 3) it seems straight forward and easy to get the charger, but how do we get the cradles and then wire them up to the appropriate connector?



A. DIY guides will no doubt be here soon . . . see above for some ideas on wiring. Lux will soon have more I feel . . . 
Tronic can get the best deal so far found (unless someone steps up from Germany ?) as he has a Conrad store near him - Downside he is in Switzerland and I don't know how many he would like to forward ( get in quick with grovelling importunings) maybe a moderate fixed number sent to one person statside for forwarding ? Conrad will send direct to Mexico but not US/Canada ! ! !



cue003 said:


> 4) how do we jumper more than one cradle to say total 8 devices and what is needed from the charger side? Will it still plug into the "4 connector" option on the charger?



A. These cradles can be added in series using a simple 4mm Banana - Banana plug (stacking plug one end min.) but then a different charger is required eg. 6S-BalancePro for 6 cells.
But you could just buy two DN chargers and 2 cradles (3DN+3 etc.) for more cells - or charge in two lots or . . . its only when they are built into packs that the charger+/balance system must match the cell count.



cue003 said:


> 5) will the standard power supply that comes with the Tenergy be able to support 8 batts charging at once? ex. 3x18650 and 3x"C" and 2x17500



A. No just the 4 x 2A channels of the DN - it's cheap and cheerful and just does the job is my guess.




cue003 said:


> 6) can the cradle hold R123 cells and RCR2 cells as well? Can the charging rate be adjusted to charge these cells safely?



A. Need spacers for LIR/RCR123 (don't know RCR2 ?) Charging rate is fully adjustable from 0.2A to 2.0A (0.2A step)



cue003 said:


> 7) this will only be for charging Li-ion correct? No NiMH at all, right?



A. Actually the cradle is originally meant for Series charging of NiMh/NiCad so a Triton or similar can be hooked up and the appropriate overall Voltage set for 1-12 (or more ?) . . . using linked cradles. 3A max current Cradle Manual 




cue003 said:


> Thanks and sorry for the "newbie" charging questions.




A. Just another Newbie too - still lots to find out about this stuff 

Cheers
Pete

ps. All that hard typing and you guys get in first - now I've got to go back and see if my post is totally redundant ! ! !


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## LuxLuthor (Apr 2, 2007)

I would think it would be 5A because it is specifically packaged with this Tenergy charger which can do 6A. They also rebranded this wallwart as their Tenergy brand...so I would be surprised if it didn't put out a reliable 5A. But I'll find out soon when the cradle I just got today is put to the test.


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## Nebula (Apr 2, 2007)

Lux, Pete, Tronic & Cy - I cannot tell you how much your collaborative efforts are appreciated here. I had to take a few days off from the thread (my head was starting to spin), and I come back to a find the four of you rolling with this project. Great team work! 

I must confess that some of this stuff makes my head hurt. That being said, I would like to assist if I can. If you need my Trition2 or anything else - batteries etc., let me know as I am happy to ship it out to you for testing these battery holders. 

Thanks again for your work. 

Kirk


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## petrev (Apr 2, 2007)

LuxLuthor said:


> I would think it would be 5A because it is specifically packaged with this Tenergy charger which can do 6A. They also rebranded this wallwart as their Tenergy brand...so I would be surprised if it didn't put out a reliable 5A. But I'll find out soon when the cradle I just got today is put to the test.



Don't forget Amps-in is not the same as Amps-out as input is 12V and output is 4.2V (x4)

so Output is 4 x 2A x 4.2V = 33.6W
and Input is 5A x 12V = 60W

so even with losses in conversion should be OK for 2A charging. Just.

My reading of the manual suggests never more than 6A input current at max charging rate - probably at lower Voltage-in limit of ~11V

?

Cheers Pete


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## LuxLuthor (Apr 2, 2007)

So Pete, are you saying that if the WallWart transformer only puts out 5A @12V to supply the Tenergy, that the Tenergy can then convert that up to 6A when applied to the cells charged (assuming 3 or 4 cells)? 

_(I'm showing my limited understanding of electronics here, but that's ok.)

What seems confusing...is if they used a REALLY crappy transformer that only put out 2 Amps, then to follow your example that would still be enough to power this Tenergy the same as the 5A supply:

_(Tenergy) Output is 4 x 2A x 4.2V = 33.6W (actually it says it is limited @ 6A for all cells, so it should be 6 x 4.2V = 25.2W)
and if charger Input power is 2A x 12V = 24W​


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## petrev (Apr 3, 2007)

LuxLuthor said:


> So Pete, are you saying that if the WallWart transformer only puts out 5A @12V to supply the Tenergy, that the Tenergy can then convert that up to 6A when applied to the cells charged (assuming 3 or 4 cells)?
> 
> _(I'm showing my limited understanding of electronics here, but that's ok.)
> 
> ...



OK - A proper expert should step in now (PLEASE) and stop me making a complete . . .

Transformers do this all the time High voltage/Low current becomes Low voltage/High current. Simple WallWarts can be just a transformer and 4 diodes to convert the AC in to a simple DC out. Look at a WallWart and see something like this
Input 110V ~0.3A Output 5V -2.0A

Or this one 2A in 5A out (simplified)






The PS I am using is 210-250V 0.9A In and 14.1V 8A Out

Lots of the recent PowerSupplies are "Switch Mode" using fancy electronic stuff so that they work off 100-250V-In for worldwide use and are much smaller than ones with real wire wound transformers in them (DN-PS is a switch mode one) and still output the appropriate DC.

There are always losses and inefficiencies in these systems so my perfect case method is always wrong in reality so I use a rule of thumb that is Double-It (or Triple-It for some headroom !)

The Chenglish Manual says 

Ⅰ. Main technical parameter
1. Input voltage: DC 11V~15V. The working electric current is less than 6A when it is charged in full load. The current of the fuse is 10A,which could prevent short circuit.

This refers to input parameters under max load not output - so it is just saying Charger Max-In is 6A with an inline fuse at 10A just in case of short-circuit.
[6A In => 8A Out (4 by 2A channels)]

This does suggest a 5A supply would not be enough for all cells at 2A because that is what it says ! ! !

Nowhere I can see does it say that at this 6A input current it would not drive all channels at 2A. 

My simple power formula is
P=IV

12V x 5A = 60Watt PS

4 x 2A x 4.2V = 33.6W Charger-output

so using a double it rule then just about OK was my guess.
Triple-it and it is a bit under powered.

And the manual says it may draw 6A input so maybe they are saying 

10.6V (absolute min Vin as switches off at 10.5Vin)

10.6V x 6A (63.6W) ~> (sort of becomes!) 4 x 2A x 4.2V (33.6W)

So the 60W nominal PS is just about in the ball-park.

Sorry I am just guessing about all this really - my hope is that as they sell them together they should work OK together !

Like the real experts say - real power supplies are BIG 

This power supply is a medium-small size unit so don't expect it to do anything more than it is sold to do (Hopefully).

Tell you what - If Lux can buy me a DN PS-Charger Combo-Kit and send it over the pond (I will send you relevent dosh Lux) I will do some empirical testing and get back to you in about 1-2 weeks.

Hope this is more illuminating than confusing (but I'm not sure) . . .
Cheers Pete


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## LuxLuthor (Apr 3, 2007)

Pete, you kinda lost me with some of that....not saying you are wrong...just lost me. Once I get my wires replaced with 14g, and tap wires coming out, then dremel the back contact so I can run 4 x 18650 set at 2A the real test will be seeing what amp is used by the WallWart 5A output....then I will hook the Tenergy to my large Pyramid 10A PS and see what the current is.

Right now I am focussed on change the wiring, getting some banana clips, getting the balancing harness setup.


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## cy (Apr 3, 2007)

last but certainly not least is where these cells should be charged. 

a fireplace is the best inside location and the only place a venting event gases could have a place to escape. 

check out this ceramic charging container from bishop power. looks much safer than a charging bag. 

http://www.b-p-p.com/proddetail.php?prod=1_BB


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## petrev (Apr 3, 2007)

LuxLuthor said:


> Pete, you kinda lost me with some of that....not saying you are wrong...just lost me. Once I get my wires replaced with 14g, and tap wires coming out, then dremel the back contact so I can run 4 x 18650 set at 2A the real test will be seeing what amp is used by the WallWart 5A output....then I will hook the Tenergy to my large Pyramid 10A PS and see what the current is.
> 
> Right now I am focussed on change the wiring, getting some banana clips, getting the balancing harness setup.



Yes - Get on with having fun doing the mods . . . can't wait to see your take on it all . . .

PM Sent 

Cheers Pete


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## LuxLuthor (Apr 3, 2007)

What would our escapades be without one of those charging barrels? Gotta get one of those. Is there a discount code to use with them?


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## DM51 (Apr 3, 2007)

petrev (heavily edited) said:


> Input 110V ~0.3A Output 5V -2.0A
> Or this one 2A in 5A out (simplified)
> The PS I am using is 210-250V 0.9A In and 14.1V 8A Out
> 1. Input voltage: DC 11V~15V…
> ...


----------



## petrev (Apr 3, 2007)

LuxLuthor said:


> What would our escapades be without one of those charging barrels? Gotta get one of those. Is there a discount code to use with them?



Yeah - Love the Alien Death-Mask design on the lid . . .

Pete

Keep your  in it too !


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## petrev (Apr 3, 2007)

DM51 said:


> PIC




 ROTFLMAO :lolsign: 

Probably went wrong when you started mixing Natural Log and Log Base10

:thinking:

Most fun in days . . . Thanks DM51


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## petrev (Apr 3, 2007)

Radical Surgery

I have modified the moving clamp more than Tronic did for a couple of reasons - 
My C-cells have too much heat-shrink on the base so the lower contact which takes over the duties in the Tronic mod would have to be cut upwards a bit to contact.
I wanted my 18680s to sit all the way down in the cradle and use the middle contact. 

But the Tronic mod is much quicker and takes off less metal - mine also runs the risk of falling off the back of the rails internally ! Maybe a slight compromise - a little bit less off the back and a little bit more off the front (above and below the middle contact prong) ?

Anyway these are the Pix . . .



 . . 

 . . 



I took the front of the slider base back a bit as well (and a notch in the front base of the post) so that AAA will still fit (if you have any LiIon AAA ?)

The back face of the pillar is easier to Dremel neatly than the front - but if you cut from the front then the "dropping off the rails" is not an issue !

18680s fit under the top contact.

C and D cells use the top contact.

I put solder on all the Dremeled areas for a better contact, to inhibit any rust formation, and so that the runners are nice and smooth !

Some of my flat-top raw 17650s are so flat that even without the anti-reverse insertion flanges they will need magnets to contact ! ! !

In future to get the same result I will probably try the slight compromise method - a little bit less off the back and a little bit more off the front (above and below the middle contact prong) ? 

Cheers Pete


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## petrev (Apr 3, 2007)

For DN/Tenergy Charger + Voltcraft Cradle

Simply wire 5 x 4mm Banana plugs to the 5-output green plug

and insert in cradle thus (until Lux wires up his JST-Plug harness !)





for FMA Balance Pro 6S insert as needed up to 6





Pete


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## LuxLuthor (Apr 3, 2007)

Ahhh some very nice custom work there. I'll have something to show you soon.


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## cy (Apr 3, 2007)

simple is good!


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## Nebula (Apr 4, 2007)

I just ordered one of these to tide me over until I can get the Voltcraft set up. I can also use this as a portable "on the road" charger. Link - http://candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?p=1949580#post1949580. Kirk


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## ryball (Apr 4, 2007)

So are we at the point where we can set up a group buy on the voltcraft cradles?


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## rdh226 (Apr 5, 2007)

ryball said:


> So are we at the point where we can set up a group buy on the voltcraft cradles?


I'm certainly up for a couple!

-RDH


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## cue003 (Apr 5, 2007)

petrev said:


> For DN/Tenergy Charger + Voltcraft Cradle
> 
> Simply wire 5 x 4mm Banana plugs to the 5-output green plug
> 
> ...



Pete, did you upgrade the internal wires of the cradle or are you using the stock wiring?


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## petrev (Apr 5, 2007)

cue003 said:


> Pete, did you upgrade the internal wires of the cradle or are you using the stock wiring?



Hi Cue

Not yet - trying to find the perfect wire ? In the meantime works fine with existing wiring but does report thin wires using BalPro-6S - still charges at 3.3A though.

Cheers Pete


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## LuxLuthor (Apr 5, 2007)

I'm replacing the existing wire with 14AWG, and adding five multi-colored 20AWG wires as taps going out in a harness. I want to be able to use my Hyperion on these as well as the Tenergy/DN.


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## Mark_Paulus (Apr 5, 2007)

I would be in for one cradle. Especially if it would come pre-modded to support the Tenergy charger, which I already own.


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## Mike abcd (Apr 5, 2007)

I'd be interested in 2 cradles.

Mike


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## cy (Apr 5, 2007)

here's some reading for those of you who care about lithium cell balancing issues. papers are from Newbie and are applicable to balanced loose cell li-ion charger cradle project. 

with C li-ion cells freely available from AW arriving at cpf members. pretty safe to say most C li-ion cells are headed for hotwire applications. folks will be needing to charge multiple cells. 

it's unfortunate, some if not most of these folks have no clue of real dangers of large cell li-ion usage. ie, large portion of risk occurs during re-charge phase. C li-ion cells are protected from high discharge, but unless I'm mistaken. no overcharge protection. 

li-ion cells when discharged in series will become unbalanced. naturally charging these same cells unbalanced in series, could result in rapid disassembly of cells. higher the cell count, easier it is for an unbalanced cell to be hidden by other cells. charger normally only checks total voltage and has no way of detecting unbalanced condition.

New schulze charger spec's indicates a type of active balancing methodology. vs passive balancing seems to be cheapest/simplest to build, but most costly in terms of efficiency. dynamic capacitive load balancing is beyond scope of this project. 

note in article, folks are choosing termination points well below max charge point, to allow headroom for hard to control surge from regen. 

this goes well with silver's recommendation of terminating at 4.1 instead of 4.2 for lithium cells. 

this paper covers basics and mentions copper dendrite issue. 
http://www.americansolarchallenge.org/tech/resources/lithiumcontrol.pdf

solar EV racing team lost their car and could have lost their life. 
http://www.americansolarchallenge.org/tech/resources/lithium_concerns.pdf

Delphi Automotive tips on cell balancing
http://www.americansolarchallenge.org/tech/resources/SAE_2001-01-0959.pdf


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## LuxLuthor (Apr 6, 2007)

Very useful information references. Thanks


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## Tronic (Apr 7, 2007)

petrev said:


> I have modified the moving clamp more than Tronic did for a couple of reasons -
> My C-cells have too much heat-shrink on the base so the lower contact which takes over the duties in the Tronic mod would have to be cut upwards a bit to contact.
> I wanted my 18680s to sit all the way down in the cradle and use the middle contact.
> 
> ...


Nice work! You have found the perfect solution for charging 18650 and C-LiIon!


petrev said:


> Tronic can get the best deal so far found (unless someone steps up from Germany ?) as he has a Conrad store near him - Downside he is in Switzerland and I don't know how many he would like to forward ( get in quick with grovelling importunings) maybe a moderate fixed number sent to one person statside for forwarding ? Conrad will send direct to Mexico but not US/Canada ! ! !


I can forward a few to you guys, but shipping is very expensive!

The cheapest option for 1 cradle with economy mail without insurance (7-15 day to US) is $16
Priority mail (3-7day to US) for 1 cradle without insurance is $28
Priority mail (3-7day to US) for 1 cradle with insurance is $32 (2-3 cradle $38)

It would be better if I could make a bulk shipping of around 20-50 cradles.
That would cut down the shipping price to around $4-5/cradle. (shipped priority insured. 4-10 day to US)

Is there someone in US that would forward the cradles?


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## cue003 (Apr 7, 2007)

I will like to be in on the bulk order. What would it cost for each cradle? Could you work something out with where you buy the cradle so you can get a reduced price on a bulk purchase?

I will be willing to take the bulk shipment here in the US as the first stop and then everyone can send me payment for shipping to them via Priority mail no problem.... I will ship it anywhere as long as the person is willing to pay the shipping charges and any paypal fees that apply.

Thanks.

Curtis


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## Tronic (Apr 7, 2007)

cue003,

Thanks for the help. 
There is also a other US member that have offered his support on this.
But I would be glad to deal with you, because you have already done a few CPF sales.

I can ask the shop for a bulk discount on Tuesday and calculate the total cost.


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## LuxLuthor (Apr 7, 2007)

It is really too bad there is not a U.S./Canada location to get these. Tronic was a great price....eventually I think someone will see this need and manufacture them. The RC website dealer I talked to is still waiting on a quote for his manufacturer to get back to him.

The biggest problem with these Voltronic cradles is their bulk. Each box weighs just over 1.5 lbs, & size of 7.5" x 2.5" x 4.5" The box would be huge if more than 15 were shipped. Then you still need to redo the wiring and cut back the contacts.

I also sanded down the POS (+) plastic guides running on both sides of the metal strip which pushed back the flat top batteries just enough to prevent contact.

This chart is why I am updating my internal wire with 14AWG, because I will be using my Hyperion with higher currents.


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## Nebula (Apr 8, 2007)

I have previously offered to help in any way that I can, and I renew that offer now. I have sent a PM to another CPF'er in Germany about a possible purchase/shipment but have yet to hear back. If something materializes I will post here. In the meantime, I would like to go in on a bulk purchase if it helps reduce the cost to others that are interested. As to re-wiring, well I leave it to the experts in the hope that a tutorial will be posted. 

Kirk


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## LuxLuthor (Apr 8, 2007)

I will post pictures. I'm waiting on some connector parts I ordered, then will do step by step of what I did.

I think a number of people with higher quality chargers are going to want to use the 14 gauge wire for internals. The "balancer" (aka: "Tap Wires") which will also go to the DN/Tenergy/CellPro 4S type chargers can be smaller diameter...like 20-22 gauge.

I will also venture to say that it is impossible to mod this cradle unless you have a dremel, vise, & soldering iron. It's not hard to do any of this, just takes a little time getting the back battery contact sanded down. 

I now have all the contact arms fitting every battery I own, including the FM 3 x 17500 D sized parallel battery holder from this light....so I will be able to charge 12 batteries in one Voltcraft cradle since they are in parallel sets of 3....BALANCED for safe charging. :rock:

I'm waiting for a few parts this coming week which will give an easy way to go between a single Voltcraft 4S cradle, to a second or third cradle if I want to use higher cell number balancing features of my Hyperion.

I ordered some extra parts of everything I need, so maybe after I get these done, I might be able to mod some for those who never heard of a Dremel.


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## petrev (Apr 8, 2007)

Hi All

Don't forget . . .

If you only want to charge AAA, AA, C, D, 10280, 17500, 18500 or LIR123 (123A with brass AW spacer designed for 17500 in DSD) then you do not need to do any mods. 

For flat top cells then the Anti-Reverse-Insertion Ribs have to be removed (or maybe solder-bumps placed strategically if preferred ? steady hand required ! )

Internal rewiring is only needed for higher current uses - not needed for DN/Tenergy or CellPro-4S.

No harness needed if you don't mind wiring (screw terminals only) 5 x 4mm Banana terminated leads to the DN green plug.

1 x *Black* and 2 x *Red* 4mm to 4mm test leads (available at Conrad ~€3.50 and all good local . . . ) - simply cut the Reds in half to make 4 x Red single Banana to bare ends and similarly chop the Black one to get one and a spare !! !!!

As to a Group-Buy - Cheapest Tax inclusive prices are in Holland then Germany then Switzerland but cheapest method is via Mexico or other Non-EU country, the VAT is not payed and is Tax Free (eg less 19% German VAT) and Conrad arrange delivery at whatever it costs. 

Just need a mate with a Mexican delivery address (and a truck ?)  

Cheers Pete

ps. I haven't got a vice (not the kind that holds things anyway) but I may lose a finger soon ! ! !


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## dca2 (Apr 10, 2007)

OK, I think I am convinced about balanced charging. My head is also spinning from reading and re-reading and jumping threads and! 

Has anyone come up with a working solution (not just a plan) for safely charging a fivemega 3s3p? I saw some refrences to adding a disk with leads coming out but has anyone been successful?

The easy solution appears to be use 3 of his 3x1450 ->D but I don't have the $ to buy 3 of those. I spent it all on the other parts to my Mag85.

I also would like to be in on a battery tray if it comes to a group buy.

Thanks Lux for your persistance and to all the others working on this project.


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## Tronic (Apr 10, 2007)

cue003 said:


> Could you work something out with where you buy the cradle so you can get a reduced price on a bulk purchase?


I was at my local conrad store today, but they don't give a discount for a bulk purchase.


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## cue003 (Apr 10, 2007)

Tronic said:


> I was at my local conrad store today, but they don't give a discount for a bulk purchase.



Tronic, we all appreciate you at least giving it a shot. Thanks for that. What is the regular price for each cradle?

Curtis


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## cue003 (Apr 10, 2007)

** Double post **

Sorry


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## LuxLuthor (Apr 10, 2007)

dca2 said:


> Has anyone come up with a working solution (not just a plan) for safely charging a fivemega 3s3p? I saw some refrences to adding a disk with leads coming out but has anyone been successful?
> 
> The easy solution appears to be use 3 of his 3x1450 ->D but I don't have the $ to buy 3 of those. I spent it all on the other parts to my Mag85.



dca2, thanks for your comments. Which 3s3p did you mean...just so we are clear? I think you meant these 3 x 17500 battery holders? Click on thumbnail to see how those 3-p holders now fit in the Voltcraft. Since they are each 1100mAh 17500's, these 3p holders now have a combined 3300 mAh capacity, so I can charge them at a 3A rate & 3s voltage of 11.1V in my Hyperion.





My next project is to see if there is a SAFE way to get wire taps into FM's battery holders. I think the easiest way would be to use a wafer thin small disc with wire soldered to edge and protected from any short in plastic holder and run down center into tail end with JST recessed/flush with tailcap. Then just use an adapter to plug into that JST connector and over to charger. I have visualized how to do this, and some of Petrev's posts show some good ideas too.

Here is a preliminary shot of the bottom where I replaced all the existing 22 guage white/black wire with 14AWG high quality, silicone wire, and made red/blue/green/yellow/black 20 AWG taps that I will put in a shrink harness with connection adapter. They are now exiting via a hole in middle of side that I drilled in the plastic, while I wait for the shrink and connectors.







I think my next one, I will use 16AWG wire just so it is easier to move the spring holder ends.


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## petrev (Apr 11, 2007)

Hey . . .

- all your Voltcraft Modding Desires in one handy place (with photos)

Thanks Lux  

Voltcraft Li-Ion Battery Holder - Newbie Modding Guide

.


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## dca2 (Apr 11, 2007)

This is what I have:





I recall somewhere someone talking about adding discs with dongles to allow balance monitoring. I am trying to keep away from buying three more adapters.


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## petrev (Apr 11, 2007)

Hi *dca2*

Post #129 shows a copper disc suitable for the job. Or could use a simple ring as long as it commons all the stacks at each level.

Need to make 2 and fit into middle 2 plastic guides to balance the stacks. 

My method would be to attach a 2 way JST 2mm connector to these two discs (1 wire to each) and this would sit alongside the pack. Make a lead for the DN/Tenergy using the existing plug/socket on the pack for Pos and Neg and a 2 wire cable to 2 pin JST socket to connect the nodes. Connect to green DNplug thus 

Neg=DN1
node1=DN2 (first disc from the tail)
node2=DN3 (second disc from the tail)
Pos=DN4

Hope this helps ?

Cheers Pete


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## LuxLuthor (Apr 11, 2007)

Like Petrev said, this would be relatively easy to setup. Each set of 3 cells would appear as a single cell to the charger with a capacity of 2250mAh (750 x 3). You would need 4 wires coming from each level of 3 batteries down through a hole in plastic, and remove the bottom center charging pin and mount a small 4 or 5 pin JST which plugs into the Tenergy charger.


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## dca2 (Apr 11, 2007)

Slap me on the back of my head if I am missing something obvious...

The copper discs with the wires (for hooking to the balancing circuit) would sit between the cells and still connect the cells to the cells above or below them -- pos. to neg.? 

The Tenergy charger is "smart" and will recognize each group of 3 cells, even though they are still connected to the other groups of 3?

If I've got it right so far...

I would still use the jack at the bottom of the battery holder for the main charging circuit and add the JST x 3 pin OR remove the old jack and add a JST x 5 pin. (will the JST handle the charging load?) :candle: 

Thanks petrev/Lux :goodjob:


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## petrev (Apr 11, 2007)

dca2 said:


> Slap me on the back of my head if I am missing something obvious...
> 
> The copper discs with the wires (for hooking to the balancing circuit) would sit between the cells and still connect the cells to the cells above or below them -- pos. to neg.?
> 
> ...



Hi *dca2*

JST 4 pin or Std. FM Jack plus JST 2 pin for a three stack.

The Balancing charger is connected to each layer - top and bottom and puts the correct voltage on each level too charge it.

Like this . . . 

Before 3s3p (3series x3)
After 3p3s (3parallel x3)





With normal series charging the total voltage/current is applied over the whole pack and distributes itself according to the state of each cell - thus one poor cell [RED] can cause problems and can get more voltage than it should - overcharge - DANGER.

With balance charging each layer acts as one battery and each layer is charged correctly for its own charge level and condition and at the correct rate for it with no overcharging.

The DN charger is connected to the pack at all levels whichever way you prefer new 4-pin or new 2-pin and existing jack. 

Note the plugs attached to the pack are the kind with holes so that no pins can contact any metal and cause a short whilst in the flashlight.

Hope this helps

Pete

ps. DN/Tenergy charger is rated at 2A max per circuit and JST are rated at 3A so no problems.


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## dca2 (Apr 11, 2007)

Petrov---Exactly what I needed to see! Thanks a bunch. 

Payday, I will be ordering the charger. While waiting, it's solder time.

Dave


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## LuxLuthor (Apr 12, 2007)

To avoid confusion, that left drawing that Petrov just posted...the red battery should be blue like those above/below it.

I was intending that you ONLY use a 4 pin JST jack with the wires going like I drew. Between each level the wire is isolating that set of 3 cells. The 4 pin is shown sticking through the existing hole, and you would no longer use the pin.

If you have a dremel, you could adjust the end cap and the solid aluminum bottom to allow the wires to come into a JST connector that could be made flush with cap, and anchored in a dremelled slot on bottom aluminum so it would not twist as you unscrewed tailcap...and would be able to rotate in the existing tailcap hole when unscrewed. Would need some filler to block up the rest of the tailcap hole, and yet allow the center charging post to stay stationary.

I have this same holder which I'm not using. The middle black sections pull off. The bottom end of rod unscrews from plastic. The bottom plastic piece unscrews with 3 small hex set screws into the bottom solid piece of aluminum.

Those silver sets of wire loop contacts was the kind of thing I was thinking and could be soldered together as Petrev's drawing illustrates and a "tap wire" attached to each set, and run down through a hole in plastic. I didn't have any without the holes, but that would be ideal...these are just for illustration of the idea. 

Hopefully my shots will let you see how to do it. I don't see the reason to keep the old charger plug & pin, as that will only give you two leads, and you need 4 coming out.


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## petrev (Apr 12, 2007)

Hi All

Yes the Red Cell was to indicate a bad Cell that can happen with series charging as noted by Lux.

Great "exploded" pictures Lux showing full components and construction - Thanks as I don't actually have one of these packs.

Just to clarify my method is almost identical to LL method simply choose your commoning method - Disk or Wire Loop contacts.

I offer this alternative so that the original series single jack charging is still an option (in extremis) if you haven't got your balance charger handy (Just for an occasional single charge)

Lux method is very neat and allows for in flashlight charging. My method requires at least partial removal from flashlight to get to the 2pin plug that sits in by the cells.





Note there are 2 sizes of JST connector available ! ! !

The DN/Tenergy charger has XH range 0.1"(2.54mm) pitch connectors on it. 
As shown in the LL picture on the short extension cable.
My drawing shows 2Way PA Range 2mm pitch connectors but there are also 2Way 0.1" connectors - just slightly bigger. Depends what you can find !
My local supplier only has 2mm pitch but Lux found this supplier of 0.1" pitch here and in his discussion over on the RCGroups forum another member posted another link here

To slightly confuse the matter more the official JST terminology seems to be Connector (holes) and Recepticle/Header (pins) - the recepticles are originally designed to be board mounted but are soldered to wires and heat shrink wrapped. If ordering from an RC website or referring to an RC forum then beware - they call the Plug-Connectors(holes) Male and the Recepticle/Header(pins) Female.

When assembling make sure all cells contact commoning device (above and below) as a cell could be left out of the circuit causing more current than expected to be delivered to the other 2 cells in a level. Charge current as displayed on the charger is shared between the cells in a common level.

I'm sure there is more that I have forgotten to mention but . . . Tempus Fugit

Cheers Pete

ps. if you can only find 3way plugs then just use 2 of the connections and make it handed so that wrong connections are even less likely ( works for 4 using 5way too)

pps. Any safe, 2-way(or more) connector system rated at 3A that fits can of course be substituted for internal plug assembly !


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## petrev (Apr 13, 2007)

Hi

Lux just sent me a link to these other connectors, 
available here - with wire pre attached (Just click the JST link)






Made by JST, they look really nice for 2way connections upto 8A 

(hopefully small enough ! can't find them in the online JST catalogue ? let me know if you find them and their reference number) 

Cheers Pete


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## Supernam (Apr 14, 2007)

http://www.powerstream.com/Produz13.htm


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## LuxLuthor (Apr 14, 2007)

Supernam said:


> http://www.powerstream.com/Produz13.htm



This CPF crowd would not have a use for a generic 20 cell charger that has a questionable setup and non-verified track record by the RC crowd. The problem has never been finding a charger. The problem is finding a universal cradle to hold and adapt all of the various Li-Ion cell sizes that our chargers can then charge with balancing. This PS link does nothing to address the problem, let alone something that deals primarily with Moli cell packs.


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## JimmyM (Apr 14, 2007)

I just received a pair of AWs lithium C cells. I hooked them up to my BC-8 and balance charged them. They started at 3.81 and 3.85 volts and then ended up at exactly 4.10 volts each. I love the balance charging thing. My setup was bit Rube Goldberg-ish but it worked in a pinch. I definitely need a proper charging setup.


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## LuxLuthor (Apr 14, 2007)

Jimmy, this cradle is working great. We just have to find a US manufacturer to make one that does what we have made this do with our customization. 

There is too much work that has to be done on the Voltcraft if you want to charge at higher than 2A rates. I'm gonna try contacting some other battery companies on Monday...including Powerstream.


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## LuxLuthor (Apr 14, 2007)

BTW, anyone who is using the Tenergy/DN 4S charger that we discussed in this thread, the fan does not come on until you set it for 0.6A or higher charging rate. This was Ido's mention of that detail in the RC Groups 37 page thread where he introduced this charger.


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## Supernam (Apr 14, 2007)

LuxLuthor said:


> This CPF crowd would not have a use for a generic 20 cell charger that has a questionable setup and non-verified track record by the RC crowd. The problem has never been finding a charger. The problem is finding a universal cradle to hold and adapt all of the various Li-Ion cell sizes that our chargers can then charge with balancing. This PS link does nothing to address the problem, let alone something that deals primarily with Moli cell packs.





LuxLuthor said:


> I have been looking all over for a way to safely charge a larger number of Li-Ion loose cells with individual voltage monitoring per cell charger slot that would provide safe balancing of pack voltages.



Hmm, according to the very first sentence of your original post, I found exactly what you were looking for. Read your own title, it doesn't say anything about a universal cradle, but a "multi cell Li-Ion Universal Balanced charger setup" which is exactly what I found. 

Also, there IS no track record with Li-ion cells in the RC community. I have been part of this R/C community for quite some time now since 1995, it wasn't very long ago that we switched over to NiMH batteries. Li-Ions didn't even come into mass production until 1991 by SONY, let alone be widely used in R/C crowd. Additionally, if you explored the site I linked to, these are CUSTOM chargers that can be made for ANY type of batteries. In other words, they build the cradles that you're looking for.


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## LuxLuthor (Apr 14, 2007)

Sorry, I didn't mean to slam you with your suggestion, but that two contact - 20 cell fixed size setup is not what we have been discussing, and *will not work with Li-Ion loose cells which is in my first sentence & title (emphasis on the word Li-Ion cells...not LiPo that have the two contact points on the same end) * since they have their POS/NEG contact points on opposite ends similar to a AA battery, and which I described in my first post. 

Your suggestion is for Moli type LiPo cells, but I did send them an email to see if they were interested in making a universal cradle that will fit all the various Li-Ion individual cells. 

The closest thing we have found so far is the Voltcraft NiMH cradle that can be modified and made to work for 4 cells at a time. It was first mentioned by Tronic in post #55 in this thread.


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## SilverFox (Apr 15, 2007)

Hello LuxLuthor,

The MC-1821C Molicell battery pack has been superseded by the MC-1821J pack. It consists of 2 18650 2400 mAh Li-Ion cells. Here is the specification sheet for it.

When you contact PowerStream, make sure they understand that you are interested in charging single cells.

Tom


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## cy (Apr 16, 2007)

This may be worth a read...

"greatest danger using li-ion cells occurs during re-charging"

http://candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=161549


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## dca2 (Apr 16, 2007)

Quick question about modding the Fivemega pack:

I am going to use sheet copper to make the plates for each "stack" Do I need to isolate these plates from the pos. rod in the middle of the stack? I think yes because that becomes the lead for the top stack.

Thanks again,
Dave


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## petrev (Apr 16, 2007)

dca2 said:


> Quick question about modding the Fivemega pack:
> 
> I am going to use sheet copper to make the plates for each "stack" Do I need to isolate these plates from the pos. rod in the middle of the stack? I think yes because that becomes the lead for the top stack.
> 
> ...



Hi Dave,

Yes - each node is at it's own voltage - The Pos is the highest voltage.

Just keep some plastic in the way round the middle.

Cheers Pete


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## dca2 (Apr 16, 2007)

prototype: need to make it more symmetrical and dremel the plastic part


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## petrev (Apr 16, 2007)

dca2 said:


> prototype: need to make it more symmetrical and dremel the plastic part
> 
> - - - PICS - - -



Hi Dave

That's the ticket

Found the ones I made for a different pack and for a slightly different purpose ! ! ! 





Yours should fit down in the recess grooved into the guide pieces very neatly.



 . or . 



Add wire in groove as described before . . . etc. Should be OK as made but if you have any problems with wire getting in the way of batteries, once soldered on, you can try the righthand version - bit more Dremel work ! ! !

Cheers Pete


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## dca2 (Apr 17, 2007)

I am ready to mod my FM battery pack with the plates for balancing. I found those connectors from POST #189 ( https://www.candlepowerforums.com/posts/1966118&postcount=189 ) at a local RC Hobby Shop for $2.39 each. They were packaged as JST/BEC Male and JST/BEC Female from ElectroDynamics www.electrodynam.com stock # EDC5010 and EDC5120. Didn't find the exact part on their website, but a link none the less:shrug:


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## dca2 (Apr 17, 2007)

Will be assembling my modded battery pack soon. Any pros or cons to using solder bumps on the copper plates? charging magnets on either side? I am using unprotected 14500's with flat ends.


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## petrev (Apr 17, 2007)

dca2 said:


> Will be assembling my modded battery pack soon. Any pros or cons to using solder bumps on the copper plates? charging magnets on either side? I am using unprotected 14500's with flat ends.


 
Just make sure all batteries contact the plates on both sides - if you need a lot of height then the little magnets make great pips but normally I find I can build solder bumps high enough. 

If you prepare the disks using some carborundum type paper - pressing thumb in centre of bump position and twisting to make a little circular scratched patch then the solder tends to form a little round patch too . . .

Have fun 
Pete


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## petrev (Apr 18, 2007)

New Thread

*Day to Day - DN/Tenergy4P, FMA-Cellpro/HD6S and Voltcraft Balanced Sys. Charging*


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