# Affordable .45 pistol suggestions?



## AlexGT (Sep 27, 2009)

Hi all!

I am interested in a good reliable pistol, Got any recommendations? I am interested in either .45 or .40, I have read about Glocks and S&W's, just want to know what else is good out there, I plan to go and rent some of the guns to test fire them and see fit and feel in my hand, I prefer semiauto than revolver. 

My price range is around $400 more or less, what do you recommend? I plan to use it for home defense but concealed carry is an option, want something easy to use under stress and reliable.

Do you have any gun forums you recommend?

Thanks!
AlexGT


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## JeffInChi (Sep 27, 2009)

Glock. Period.

There are other fantastic guns out there, including, but not limited to, Sig Sauer, Smith and Wesson, Springfield, Kimber, HK etc but they won't be as inexpensive as the Glock. 

At $400, it's possible to purchase one new, depending on where you live. If not, a used glock is also a good option. Glocks have been through hell and back, undergoing extremely strenuous tests by multiple federal, state and local agencies, including being dropped from several stories, going underwater, and being dunked in mud and sand - all of which resulted in the glock still being able to function flawlessly. I've fired about three thousand or so rounds through mine, without it needing anything but a good cleaning. I've never had a misfire, double feed or "stovetop" malfunction either.

And no, I don't work for Glock, just a big fan. Hopefully you will be too.


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## Search (Sep 27, 2009)

A Glock will cost you 400 - 600 new like Jeff said. I actually found a G21 (.45) for 450 today new.

A Glock will do everything you ask of it and more. It is easily cleaned and will work when you need it too. 

If you want to spend a little more money on something more concealable I would go with a 1911. Springfield Armory has good models for a good price (around 1100 - 1200).

I wouldn't get a compact 1911 though. They have a world of problems with malfunctions.

If you want something more compact go back to Glock.


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## glockboy (Sep 27, 2009)

Glock.:twothumbs
http://glocktalk.com/forums/


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## ARA (Sep 27, 2009)

Do go to the range and test fire a few it is important that you are comfortable with the weapon u intend to purchase. 

A Glock 30 (with a Glock 21 magazine) will suffice with your requirements for a simple, reliable home defence weapon which you can conceal carry as well.


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## 1wrx7 (Sep 27, 2009)

I seen all of those tests done on the Glock, and it's true. A Glock is the AK-47 of pistols:thumbsup:...virtually indestructable. The quote below is the best advice given though. Everybody likes something different. Personally Glocks don't feel right in my hand. I don't get the natural aiming I like with a Glock.




ARA said:


> Do go to the range and test fire a few it is important that you are comfortable with the weapon u intend to purchase.


 
If you buy a quality firearm you'll get a good one, but you have to be comfortable using it. I'm aslo looking for a .45ACP. I'll probally end up with a Springfield XD. Reasonable price and easy for me to shoot. CPF motto aplies to guns too.... buy both:twothumbs


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## Arkrokon (Sep 27, 2009)

If you are only going to have one you need to consider safety carefully. I have several and they each have different safety considerations. The Glock has no safety so you have to be very vigilant keeping close control of it. My Kimber Match 1911 outshoots them all and is my choice when in a stressfull environment but carrying it locked and loaded and having a 3# trigger requires practice to not shoot when you don't want it to.

I tried a S&W for EDC but quality and reliablility issues forced me to get rid of that one. 

I have been carrying a Taurus PT 145 for a while now and is my preference for carry. It is small but not to small for a good grip. It has a thumb safety and an integral lock. It is still double action like the Glock but the safety gives a little more control in stressful situations - it is in the same location and function as a 1911 safety which has proven over may years to be effective. The feature that drives me the most to carry this weapon is the easy to use integral lock, the key goes on your key chain and is very easy to use. You can run your finger down the side and tell if the lock is engaged and if there is a loaded round. With kids around I like to know that when the gun is not in my control it is safe. I also lock it when I leave it in a vehicle to reduce risks to others if it is stolen. It quickly becomes habit to check and unlock before carry.

The Taurus solid copper hollow point rounds are a good complement. These are the Barnes -X bullets.


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## Rothrandir (Sep 27, 2009)

I'm fond of CZ.


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## Rexlion (Sep 27, 2009)

+1 for Taurus. Good warranty, too.


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## Fulgeo (Sep 27, 2009)

I would go with the Glock 39 .45. If you want something smaller and lighter or if you have small hands check out, the Glock 36 single-stack .45. I would also suggest that you go to a gun store that has range guns available for rental so you can try the gun out before you buy. This is a better way to go since not only does it give you an idea of what the guns characteristics are like but also range guns get 10,000s of round thru them and you get an understanding of what the gun will be like once it gets used a bit. The gun store I go to offers this service and they will reimburse the cost of the rental if you buy a new gun from them. I have quite a few automatics but the only two that I actually carry are Glocks, although of the .357 sig cal variety. If you get a little more money together or in the future you want a metal automatic, like Arkrokon said get the Kimber. I have shot a Kimber a few times and not to sound like a braggard but at 25' the target had a half dollar sized hole in it. I am a good shot but the Kimber is better. Not in the scope of this thread but the problem with carrying a gun is weight and size. Alot of us buy full frame guns and find that they are at times difficult to carry. That is why I suggested the Glock 36. Good shooting to you!


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## mwaldron (Sep 27, 2009)

Arkrokon said:


> The Glock has no safety so you have to be very vigilant keeping close control of it.



Not true at all. The Glock has no _*manually operated*_ safety. All Glock pistols have 3 different safe locks built in that are automatically disengaged as you pull the trigger. In other words, it doesn't have a safety switch that can be accidentally released causing you to think it's still engaged. 

To copy something I read a long time ago on another forum, "Keep your booger hook of the bang button and it will not fire."

Treat any gun Glock, Springfield, or 1911 with the respect it deserves and as if it were loaded at all times regardless if you _*know*_ it is or isn't. If you don't want to destroy something, don't aim at it. You are the #1 safety on any firearm, never forget it.


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## Illum (Sep 27, 2009)

mwaldron said:


> Not true at all. The Glock has no _*manually operated*_ safety. All Glock pistols have 3 different safe locks built in _that are automatically disengaged as you pull the trigger._ In other words, it doesn't have a safety switch that can be accidentally released causing you to think it's still engaged.




I don't have any experience with guns but doesn't that sort of defeats the purpose of a safety?


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## mwaldron (Sep 27, 2009)

Illum said:


> I don't have any experience with guns but doesn't that sort of defeats the purpose of a safety?



No, actually it doesn't. I am not the best person to explain this, but I will try. I may get some details wrong. 

A safety is designed to prevent accidental discharge of a firearm. It's primarily there to protect the person carrying the gun. There are many different designs and they work different ways. When the first semi-automatic pistols were designed, there were no safetys at all. Any jostling, jarring or sudden bump could cause the firing pin to impact the primer and the gun would go off. Essentially, something as small as dropping the gun on the ground or getting kicked in the gun could cause it to go off. 

The most common kind of semi-automatic pistols are generically lumped into a category called 1911s because their design hasn't really changed much since around 1911 when they were first mass produced. The design of this pistol is inherently unsafe due to the above. In the last couple decades manufacturers and engineers have retrofitted additional types of safeties into these guns such as grip safeties (won't fire unless you are holding the grip) and mechanical safeties that you disengage with your thumb prior to shooting. They're good, they generally work well. 

Now, modern designed firearms, they designed them with this level of safety from the ground up. There are a number of ways to accomplish this often involving physically removing the firing pin until the very last part of the trigger stroke. The firing pin is the part that actually strikes the primer (very small explosive charge on the rear of the round that ignites the gunpowder) and fires the bullet. If it's not physically there, nothing can hit that primer and this the gun cannot fire. No amount of jostling or jarring can make it hit or resale the tension on the spring if it's not there. 

There are several other methods as well, Glock uses 3 different ones on their pistols. Most manufacturers with modern designs use several different independent methods. 

The other aspect of gun safety is preventing someone else from using your gun. That's what most people think of when you say gun safety.

For that, there is an archaic device known as a safe. You buy a very large one and then you have a place to store your McGizmo collection as well. On a smaller scale there are various trigger locks and steel cables that prevent a round from being put into the chamber until they are unlocked and removed.


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## Lightraven (Sep 27, 2009)

I had a Glock 27 but it was unreliable, for some reason and broke shortly after I bought it. I got a Springfield XD to replace it and it has been much better--no malfunctions that I recall. I carry it every day.


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## Illum (Sep 27, 2009)

mwaldron said:


> No, actually it doesn't. I am not the best person to explain this, but I will try. I may get some details wrong.
> 
> A safety is designed to prevent accidental discharge of a firearm. It's primarily there to protect the person carrying the gun. There are many different designs and they work different ways. When the first semi-automatic pistols were designed, there were no safetys at all. Any jostling, jarring or sudden bump could cause the firing pin to impact the primer and the gun would go off. Essentially, something as small as dropping the gun on the ground or getting kicked in the gun could cause it to go off.



thats interesting to know:candle:
Although without looking at the internal mechanisms I wouldn't have a clue why the firing pin would travel if the hammer is not in the open position. 

I thought this sudden bump misfire business got eliminated after pinfires were replaced by rimfires but guess not.

ya learn something everyday


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## LukeA (Sep 27, 2009)

There's no beating any Kahr pistol for CC.


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## LukeA (Sep 27, 2009)

mwaldron said:


> To copy something I read a long time ago on another forum, "Keep your booger hook of the bang button and it will not fire."



I always heard it as, "The safety is between the ears--keep your booger hook off the trigger until you want to fire."


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## Search (Sep 27, 2009)

The only safety is your finger. 

Glocks are desgined to not accidentally go off. If you misfire one it's because you pulled the trigger, period.

That's a pretty good safety


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## Mike Painter (Sep 27, 2009)

mwaldron said:


> The most common kind of semi-automatic pistols are generically lumped into a category called 1911s because their design hasn't really changed much since around 1911 when they were first mass produced. The design of this pistol is inherently unsafe due to the above. In the last couple decades manufacturers and engineers have retrofitted additional types of safeties into these guns such as grip safeties (won't fire unless you are holding the grip) and mechanical safeties that you disengage with your thumb prior to shooting. They're good, they generally work well.


The grip safety was on 1911's since well before the 1960's and as far as I know was always there. There is also a manual one, the floating firing pin, and one that (is supposed to) prevent the weapon from firing if you push on the front of the weapon.
The barrel moves back and depresses something. However after a few thousand to tens of thousands that feature tends to stop working as an MP in Germany found out when he demonstrated it with a live round...
Mine rattled when you shook it but always went bang.
The only time I ever saw one jam was when somebody left out the part that attaches the barrel to the stock, and even then it fired twice.

\I've always wished I pulled a Radar and mailed one home to me one piece at a time.


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## StarHalo (Sep 27, 2009)

What about this guy;







The Taurus Tracker .45 ACP; I'd wager with the heavy/ported barrel and rubber grip it's a bit easier to manage than a 1911 (as long as you don't want to carry it), plus revolver reliability..


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## ARA (Sep 27, 2009)

My own experiences with Taurus's have been less than spectacular. In terms of reliability the Glock is far superior any day. The XD and 1911 platform are equally good and worth taking a look. You could check out a Sig as well but will be pricy


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## Lightraven (Sep 27, 2009)

Actually, safety is a little more nuanced.

If we're just talking about handguns, you may have:
1. Drop safety--prevents gun from firing when subjected to shock
2. Trigger safety--prevents gun from firing when trigger is subjected to drag from the side (Glock style), or prevents the trigger from moving at all (most other trigger safeties) 
3. Grip safety--prevents gun from firing when a firm grip isn't held
4. Hammer safety--half **** and other designs to prevent gun from firing when hammer is released by something other than the sear
5. Magazine disconnect--prevents gun from firing without a magazine seated

But also think about:
1. Safety of having a gun fire without mental overhead, such as flipping a safety lever.
2. Safety of having gun not fire when taken by an enemy because he doesn't know how the safety works.
3. Safety of not having to pull the trigger to disassemble the gun.
4. Holster safety--does the holster design encourage or discourage an accidental trigger pull (by the retention strap or a trigger finger)
5. Safety to prevent gun from being fired by children
6. Safety of a long or strong trigger pull to require more effort to fire the gun.
7. Safety of having gun unfirable while asleep, drugged or unconscious.
8. Safety of identifying a target
9. Safety of accuracy to hit the target and not innocents

I didn't just make this stuff up. A lot of rounds have been fired accidentally (or in #1, not fired when needed) or deliberately at the wrong person to make this list. I wish it were simple.

It isn't always the obvious reasons. Safety means considering everything and not taking it for granted. Triggers have been pulled by animals and foreign objects (like holster retention straps or vest mounted equipment). They have been pulled by wounded soldiers/LEOs who regain consciousness and spastically pull the trigger.


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## QtrHorse (Sep 27, 2009)

I have a Glock and do not like it but that is just a personal preference.

Before buying one, make sure you read both the good and bad about them before deciding.

If you buy one used, make sure you read about the difference between the generations. 

The best advice given here so far is to find a range that will let you try mutliple brands/ manufactures.


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## paintballdad (Sep 27, 2009)

AlexGT said:


> Hi all!
> 
> I am interested in a good reliable pistol, Got any recommendations? I am interested in either .45 or .40, I have read about Glocks and S&W's, just want to know what else is good out there, I plan to go and rent some of the guns to test fire them and see fit and feel in my hand, I prefer semiauto than revolver.



Try out as many guns as you can, either renting at the range or maybe some of your buddies has one you can try out. Go out and shoot but at the very least handle them. Fit is just as important as reliability, reliability goes out the window if you can't properly shoot the firearm due to it being too big or too small for your hands and so on.



> My price range is around $400 more or less, what do you recommend? I plan to use it for home defense but concealed carry is an option, *want something easy to use under stress and reliable.
> *
> Thanks!
> AlexGT


In my opinion, a revolver is the easiest and most reliable firearm to use under stress. You won't have to rack the slide if you don't have one up the pipe when you need it, no manual safety to flick off and limp wristing a revolver won't cause a jam.
Your price range will limit your choices quite a bit. In the $500 range, your choices would be Glocks, Smith & Wesson M&P and the Springfield Armory XDs. These have a pretty good track record.
I've owned and shot quite a few different semi auto pistols over the years, Sigs, Glocks, Berettas, Brownings, CZ and so on. Of the pistols i've used I find Sigs, Glocks, Berettas and HKs to be very reliable out of the box. I'm sure there are other choices out there but i'll limit my suggestions to those I have experience with.

And if you do end up owning a firearm, pleae make sure you get proper training. It's the least you can do for yourself to be completely prepared.


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## Patriot (Sep 27, 2009)

> *mwaldron
> *I am not the best person to explain this, but I will try. I may get some details wrong.


Actually, I thought you did great! :thumbsup:


All of the comments about the Glock have been very good. I'm a triple owner of glocks and they are indeed very nice beyond their price. That is to say, you get a lot for your money and I consider them a good value. 

Even the Glock is a bit over your budget but you may be able to find one used, in good condition. Sometimes police trade-ins are sold by certain dealers. Given their popularity you're probably more likey to find a $400 for sale than almost any other of it competitors that retail for about the same price. Yes, there are alternatives at various prices, but their aren't going to be many alternatives at $400.










My history with the Glock and why I'm fond of them:

I come from a family with deep 1911 roots and didn't even start shooting Glocks until 12-13 years ago when I had to borrow one for a police invitational. 12 local civilian competition shooters were invited to a shoot off with DPS and a few members from other mixed LEO groups. In order to keep the playing field even the target shooters had to shoot a stock LE type handgun. I didn't have anything like that and had to borrow a G22 and holster just to compete. Other than evening drills and some morning live fire practice I didn't have much preparation. To my great surprise I was blown away to have finished 2nd overall. I own several custom competition handguns costing thousands but when it came time to choose a new carry gun I chose the Glock for its mix of great attributes. In fact, the week after that shoot I ordered my first glock through my dealer. I'll always be a 1911 fan, but when it comes to an everyday carry arm I now prefer the glock.


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## vb14 (Sep 27, 2009)

If anyone is wondering how durable and dependable glock is, check this out.

To the OP, if you want 45acp, G30 would be a good choice. As much as I love glock, stay away from 45gap. I just can't find them. If you prefer 40S&W, G23 would be my choice.


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## Kestrel (Sep 27, 2009)

Definitely try out a Glock before deciding on one. I've shot a number of different makes side-by-side and thought that the SIG's were nicer to shoot and just overall a nicer pistol IMO. After shooting a Glock I wasn't all that impressed. But everyone has different tastes, YMMV - I'd take a Smith & Wesson revolver over anything else.  Bait alert! Bait alert! Bait alert! ...


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## Sgt. LED (Sep 28, 2009)

I've owned everything, really. I kept the Colt defender for my .45 and switched the parts over to Wilson Combat. Flawless performance but I had to hand fit all the parts, nothing drops in!

I like Sig in 9/40/357sig, Colt in 45, Springfield in 9/40, Glock in 9/45, HK in 9/40/45. 
I did not like Taurus auto's, Kimber, Rock River, or Kahr.
I have mixed feeling about a lot of other brands, Bertetta comes to mind first.

Don't buy anything without shooting it along with a few others in the same class first, you'll save yourself some money. Going used is a mixed bag of pain and joy. You can win big or land a lemon. If they sell used pistols but won't let you inspect it carefully then pass.




Lightraven said:


> I had a Glock 27 but it was unreliable, for some reason and broke shortly after I bought it. I got a Springfield XD to replace it and it has been much better--no malfunctions that I recall. I carry it every day.


What broke? 
I like the Glock because of how fast and simple it is to fully tear down and replace parts in. It's not pretty, fancy, special, or cool but it does work well and take a beating if need be.


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## Lightraven (Sep 28, 2009)

The recoil spring guide rod broke, locking up the pistol during some shooting at the range after only a couple hundred rounds fired, ever, from that gun. The range officer (a Glock armorer) ordered a new one and Glock sent two. 

I started using a Laser Max internal guide rod, but started getting failure to go completely into battery. Easily reduced through slapping the magazine floor and racking the slide. I put each of the Glock recoil guide rods back in but still had the problem. I changed one magazine spring to a Wolff spring and still had problems every 20-30 rounds. Glock accused me of limp wristing. I know limp wristing and this wasn't it.

I sold the weapon to a coworker with the warning about the malfunctions, but he bought it anyway. He and his son both had the same problem, but were basically satisfied as it was a range gun for the son, not a carry piece.

I just saw a Glock 9mm break that was being shot by a SEAL during a training course. I spotted the broken piece when we did a side-by-side inspection. It was the metal-over-plastic piece that disassembles the gun. Somebody mentioned that those pieces are prone to breakage.

That and the well known issue of Glock .40's and weaponlights makes me reluctant to go back to a Glock.


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## Sgt. LED (Sep 28, 2009)

Several problems in one gun and with different shooters too.....

:sick2: Lemon! They pop up from every maker.

I had a Kimber that always ran but I couldn't find anyone who could get it to pattern for them. It was all over the place. I sold it after 2 months of fiddling.

The Glock .40 issues are mainly from shooting lead and reloads last I remember, is it still the same?


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## Search (Sep 28, 2009)

I'm curious if you used the same ammunition or the same type throughout your shooting.


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## Patriot (Sep 28, 2009)

So odd for me to hear of these accounts since I never get to experience any of them first hand. So many people here have them and shoot the heck out of them and I never meet anyone with glocks that don't run correctly. I'd almost love to get a hold of one that didn't work, just so I could diagnose and fix it...lol. They're so simple that I can't imagine a problem that a simple part replacement wouldn't fix.


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## Sgt. LED (Sep 28, 2009)

Yes. It sucked with FMJ and hollowpoints of every brand stocked at my local shop. Because of the cost of it I really tried to work it out and keep the thing. It was an early Pro Carry II.

I even started splitting 50 round boxes with people, we would each shoot half the box and still got nowhere. I'm sure Kimber makes good pistols but I'm not going back to try them on my dime just in case.

My current fun gun is an HK USP Tactical .40. A bit $$ but Mmmmmmmm is it sweet!


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## Lightraven (Sep 28, 2009)

All department issued 155 grain jacketed hollowpoint .40 S&W from Federal or Remington. I don't buy or reload .40 since I can get all I need (in duty use JHP) from my agency.

I know Glock has a pretty good reputation, (unlike Kimber these days), so maybe it was early teething problems with the 27's. I got it in 1996.

Still, my experience with Beretta, Springfield XD and H&K .40's has been very good from a reliability standpoint. I've only gotten a half dozen or so minor malfunctions, and always during intense private combat courses, not quals or agency training, often during the weak hand only drills, which are likely limp wristing. Still never had a problem with weak hand quals though. This was with nearly a thousand rounds fired during the course without a drop of oil. I do that deliberately to test the guns during hard training, then lube them up for carry.


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## Search (Sep 28, 2009)

I see. We too use Federal and it is pretty good stuff. I've only shot it through training and qualifying (as most) but the hundreds (or maybe thousands) of rounds I've seen fired was all good stuff.

I've yet to see a Glock malfunction but that's probably just unthinkable. Even with any manufacturer.

I trust the Glock. However, for personal use I plan to buy a Springfield 1911. I think they are superb handguns and, if made right, very reliable. I would trust it more than a Glock but with the limited round capacity not something to fall back on. A Wilson Combat is in the future 

I think for the price a Glock would do the OP just perfect. Good reliability for a good price. Yes, there are flukes, lemons, and duds, but that's to expect from any company.


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## Sgt. LED (Sep 28, 2009)

I love this thread.


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## Search (Sep 28, 2009)

Sgt. LED said:


> I love this thread.



Maybe a Wilson Combat Professional with Star Burst grips is in your future


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## Sgt. LED (Sep 28, 2009)

Go ahead, make me cry. oo:


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## Search (Sep 28, 2009)

Sgt. LED said:


> Go ahead, make me cry. oo:



I'll give you a shoulder, because I'll feel your pain.


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## Lightraven (Sep 28, 2009)

During private training courses, I see more 1911 malfunctions than all the rest put together even though only about 10% of the students show up with one. No surprise to anyone who follows the 1911 saga online.

Of course, that's many different makers, not just one. 

I put reliability as the top priority for any combat gun. 

As a former American Armor Officer, I feel a twinge of guilt for having never fired a 1911. What would George Patton say if he caught me qualifying with an Italian piece at Armor Officer school, Fort Knox, Kentucky? Probably slap my face.


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## Search (Sep 28, 2009)

As of late 2007 these are a few names to add to the groups of people who use a 1911:

Marine MEU-SOC .. That's an oooohhhhh
A certain LAPD SWAT team .... :nana:
FBI SWAT teams and...
FBI HRT


The list goes on but those speak for themselves. I believe a quality 1911 in good condition will perform. I think many back me up 

However, that is personal belief. I respect your opinion and understand it. I've had good results from my Dell. Who would have known


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## tygger (Sep 28, 2009)

mwaldron said:


> "Keep your booger hook of the bang button and it will not fire."



Now that is frickin hilarious.


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## Patriot (Sep 28, 2009)

Search said:


> I believe a quality 1911 in good condition will perform. I think many back me up


 

Absolutely. In fact, you don't have to "believe" blindly, as it's one of the most tested sidearms of the past century. The original design was sound and always has been. Over the past few decades, manufacturers have been building features into factory 1911s that were originally custom modifications by target shooters. As these are all departures from the primary design some manufacturers incorporated these modifications correctly and some have not. 



It makes sense that instructors will see a higher number of malfunctions in the environment of a training course because these people are often shooting modified 1911s with a lack of thorough testing and tuning having been performed. Glocks and XD's aren't "tuned" modified designs unless someone goes out of their way to tune or modify them. In contrast nearly every popular 1911 sold today has some level of tuning done to them, either actual or built in. Imagine if 20 or 30 different companies were making "glock" pistols, each with it's own twist of modifications like different extractors, ejectors, recoil springs, slide cut tolerances, trigger weights, hammers, barrels, ramps, etc. We'd certainly be seeing a much higher failure rate than we do now with the current, repeatable, consistent design. 

This isn't to say that 1911s can't be made to perform as reliably as a glock (in standard conditions) it's just that the average, once a month shooter doesn't know what to do or where to start with a pistol that's occasionally experiencing stoppages. All too often the owner either lives with the problem if it's rare, or they sell the gun. Properly built 1911's will run perfectly with only verification testing needed. Others will require some simple adjustments, tedious tuning or "trouble shooting." My last full custom 1911 in .38 super maj. has never had a single stoppage in 17K-19K rounds fired, and that's shooting all reloads. So, 1911 reliability can be achieved and they'll outperform the XD's and Glocks in traditional IPSC and USPSA type, simulated combat shooting. Still the best after nearly 100 years.


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## 270winchester (Sep 28, 2009)

a bone stock 1911A1 replica with series 70 structure is one of the most reliable pistol in existence.

The malfunction start when people tighten the slide-to-frame fit, put in FLGR, put in super tight fitting barrel bushing, and "match" or "tactical" parts, and don't clean them after use.

There is a reason why one of the best selling 1911 on the market is from Brazil, i.e. the Springfield GI, as well as its cousin the Mil Spec(Not the GI Mil SPec). THey followed the original design and created a very cheap and very reliable pistol. And they shoot 3-4 inch groups at 25 yards when the "match" pistols can do 1.5-2.5 inch groups. The difference in reliability is sometimes not comparable.

It's a shame that Colt went to Series 80 design and all the lower end Kimbers are as well. That means the most authentic 1911s that most people can afford come from Brazil and the Philipines(RIA, Armscor, etc).


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## Lightraven (Sep 28, 2009)

Everything you guys have said about the 1911 is what I've read myself, so I believe it.

The training courses I go to are run by former and current LAPD SWAT guys, and their Kimbers seem fine.


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## Mike Painter (Sep 28, 2009)

Lightraven said:


> Everything you guys have said about the 1911 is what I've read myself, so I believe it.



The ones we shot in Germany in the 60's were old and all rattled but were good enough to shoot rats with at the dump.
Two jeeps about 20 yards apart facing in slightly different directions. One .45 per person and all the magazines we could find. 
Turn off jeep lights.
Load all the magazines.
Turn on one set and shoot until you were empty or no more rats were seen.
Turn off lights, move to second jeep and repeat.
Go home after 1000 rounds.

But sometimes they shoot back. I was shooting at something shiny at a good distance and heard a noise a bit later. About the third time we realized that what we were shooting at had three corners at right angles to each other, like the corner of a room.
I remembered my high school physics and stopped shooting at it. A beam of light entering such a configuration will come out parallel to itself. A tennis ball or a bullet will do about the same...


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## Hitthespot (Sep 28, 2009)

Illum said:


> I don't have any experience with guns but doesn't that sort of defeats the purpose of a safety?


 
These types of firearms (Glocks, some Sigs, ) are really from a very generic stand point no different than revolvers that have been around since before the turn of the century. You pull the trigger the gun fires. No safety to take off manually. Now having said that and the fact that I own one (A Sig Arms 357 Sig model 239) I would much prefer a 1911 style pistol with at least two manual safety's that must be actuated on for the pistol to fire. I plan on getting my CCP soon and will probably buy a Kimber to carry. ( If I can find one--3 to 6 month wait in my area)

It really is a matter of preference. Most of the new people ( Younger folks / police / Military ) are growing up with the new pistols like Glocks and Sig Arms. They wouldn't be comfortable with a 1911 style pistol. Us old timers love em.

BTW--Sig Arms and Glocks are superb pistols. I have never had a misfire or Malfunction with a Sig.

Bill


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## corvettesR1 (Sep 28, 2009)

You may wish to take a look at the Beretta 8045 Cougar.I have found mine to be accurate and utterly reliable.This pistol has a decocking safety, loaded chamber indicator and a double action trigger.


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## chaoss (Sep 28, 2009)

glockboy said:


> Glock.:twothumbs
> http://glocktalk.com/forums/


 

This :thumbsup::thumbsup:.


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## AlexGT (Sep 28, 2009)

Wow thanks so much for all the information! keep it coming! I will take the time to process and decide, I definetly will check out the recomendations you all gave me at the shooting range.

Thanks!
AlexGT


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## OfficerCamp (Sep 28, 2009)

FN FNP45? I have the same model chambered in S&W .40 and love it to death. I've tried almost every major handgun manufacturer and I have to say, the FNP is the tops as far as quality goes for the price. Used they can be had for under $450 (new is only around $6 ish), and even used, reliability will not be an issue. My model came with three (3!!!) magazines and replaceable backstraps to fit your hand size. The finish is beautiful, and the sights are stellar. The only thing I do not like about this piece is the price of ammo these days, but...... I don't think that's FN's fault. 
Honestly, get ANY major manufacturer (Glock, Sig, S&W, etc...) and you will be happy, just find the one that fits your hand and points naturally when you present it to your target.


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## Robocop (Sep 29, 2009)

Personally I carry an H&K USP40 on duty and have done so for over 12 years now. I have to keep up with my range scores for certification and this also includes total rounds fired on all courses. It is not un-usual to fire 300 to 500 rounds on certain courses over a two day time.

Adding up all of my years, extra courses, speciality training, and even off duty practice I have put 10k rounds through my weapon and never had one single malfunction. My dept. is not known to supply the best quality ammo. for training either and the big H&K feeds it all without any issues. I am truly amazed with this weapon however there are other officers with the same results using Glocks as well.

Whatever you choose I truly believe the key to reliability relies in good shooting form and proper maintenance of your weapon. Learn to clean it well and keep the habit of checking it often. Keep it simple and do not get into the mind frame that you need every bell and whistle available for it as simple is always better. Proper practice combined with a decent simple weapon will get you out of most any situation you may encounter as a civilian.

Honestly you can not go wrong with several of todays choices. As an officer the chances of me using my weapon are much greater than a civilian and as such I did much research for my choice. It was costly however for my most important,yet least used, tool it was well worth it. If you are truly forced to keep your 400 dollar budget you may have to go with a different cal. weapon yet keep the quality high. My back up weapon is a Kel-Tec 32 cal. and I really like that little weapon. It is slim and light and fits my pocket well and most important it is easy to conceal. I often carry it off duty and feel just fine knowing I have it and if needed it would probably do all I asked of it. 

Reliability is hard to beat with a small revolver however limited shot capacity and reloading speed suffer. This is usually honestly never an issue with most confrontations with civilians on the street. The threat is usually over very quickly and most always at close range. If you are set on an auto then again learn the functions of the weapon and practice often. Find a system of carry that works and never change it as you want it to be as familiar as possible.

I see many who constantly change to the next best thing out there. Many will change holsters or even weapons just to have something new. The problem is that after learning one system it is hard to do something different under stress. Something as simple as a new holster with a different finger snap will cost many there lives. If my weapon were to break tomorrow or my holster I would buy the exact same set up without question.

I can go on and on about this all night however I do like the idea you have of trying out various weapons before you decide. You are smart to do that as simply holding one in the store is very different from actually firing one. There again have been many choices given here by many educated persons. Thus far all are pretty good choices for your stated usage. Now you have to either find something new within your budget or maybe a well kept used model.

Good luck and keep us posted.


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## Diesel_Bomber (Sep 29, 2009)

I lean towards Glock. I like the point and click interface. The G30(subcompact .45) is a fine gun, but (to me at least) kicks too hard to be much fun at the range.

A couple thoughts I had...

Training is of utmost importance. I recommend ALL handgun shooters acquire a .22 handgun in addition to the rest of their collection; this will allow training on everything except recoil management and will stretch your training dollar a long way. I have two Walther P22's which are easily my most fired guns, and didn't take long at all to pay for themselves vs. firing my bigger caliber guns the same amount. There are .22 conversion kits for most service caliber guns, as well.

If you're going to CCW, don't discount a smaller caliber. the Glock 21(full size .45) that's sitting on the night stand because it's too big to carry comfortably is useless compared to the G26(subcompact 9mm) that's actually on your person when those thugs give you a problem outside the quicky mart. With modern self defense ammo there isn't as much difference in effectiveness in service calibers as there used to be.

Good luck, and welcome to the world of shooting. :buddies:


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## doktor_x (Sep 29, 2009)

If you're comfortable with the 1911 platform, the Rock Island Armory pistols are a fantastic value. I've also been very happy with my Commander-sized (4.25" barrel) Shooters Arms Manufacturing 1911.

I like Glocks from an engineering perspective, but they've always felt strange to me. It's an individual preference thing. Go with what feels right and you're that much closer to shooting well.


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## alpg88 (Sep 29, 2009)

Rothrandir said:


> I'm fond of CZ.



that makes 2 of us.
cz 97b is the best .45 auto i've ever shot, after few hundred rounds out of cz, i felt like throwing my ruger in the garbage. not that it is bad, just doesn't feel nearly as comfortable as cz does.


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## Owen (Sep 30, 2009)

I'm not a fan of setting a budget for a weapon.
That said, buy what you feel most comfortable with. 
As long as you get something reliable, the gun you choose is the LEAST important part of defensive wear or use.

However, any confidence you have that isn't based on competence is a fantasy, and developing that competence will cost more $, not to mention time, than buying the handgun will.


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## paintballdad (Sep 30, 2009)

Owen said:


> However, any confidence you have that isn't based on competence is a fantasy, and developing that competence will cost more $, not to mention time, than buying the handgun will.



Well said. There just isn't any substitute for proper training and practice.


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## MSaxatilus (Oct 1, 2009)

I'm a big fan of Glocks too.

My only suggestion is to stay away from the .45 GAP pistols and stick with the .45 ACP versions. That being said, those are pretty big for concealed carry. Home defense and target practice, the G21 is a total blast to shoot. I love mine.

I did read carefully about the other CPFer that had problems with his Glock. I agree with Sgt. LED, that must have been a lemon. I've shot litterally thousands if not tens of thousands of rounds through Glocks and not only have I never broken a part, I've only seen it FTF/FTE once!!! And that was in the first magazine in which my brother ever fired a gun. I equated it to his limp-wristing. Simple fact with Glocks is that they go bang when you want them too. Very simple gun. Very very reliable.

I also have a bunch of nice 1911s and I enjoy shoot those more, but when a bad guy breaks in, I'm reaching for my Remminton 870 with #00 buck. For home defense there is nothing more devastating. 

My G34 (9mm) would be my next choice. Only because I'm absolutely deadly with that thing and it holds LOTS of rounds.

Good luck with your decision. There are tons of choices out there.

MSax


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## Shreklight (Oct 2, 2009)

I have a Glock, a Sig Sauer, and a S&W m&p all of them are good. I bought the sig used for $400. The S&W are around $500 and are available in a compact, good for ccw. But like someone else said test em out and you will know which is right for you.


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## 270winchester (Oct 2, 2009)

MSaxatilus said:


> My G34 (9mm) would be my next choice. Only because I'm absolutely deadly with that thing and it holds LOTS of rounds.
> 
> Good luck with your decision. There are tons of choices out there.
> 
> MSax



isn't the Glock 34 a long version of the 17 with a 17 round magazine? Do they make special 15 round magazines for NJ?

(BTW here is California you are limited to 10. Imagine a Glock 34 with only 10 round capacity. :green


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## Patriot (Oct 2, 2009)

270winchester said:


> (BTW here is California you are limited to 10. Imagine a Glock 34 with only 10 round capacity. :green





It's silly when laws override design. The 34 and 35 are very popular in the practical shooting crowd, it's just that in CA you'll have to reload more often, thus shooting it in IDPA is more suited to it over there. In NJ, the G35 is a better option, design wise since it's limited to 15 rounds by design. As you stated the G34 carries 2 more rounds, so I'm not sure how they get around the capacity issue back there if your not LE.


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## Databyter (Oct 2, 2009)

I'm in the market myself and have done extensive reading about this lately.

I like glocks on paper but they feel like 2x4's in my hands so it's just not for me. I demand a natural pointer and my hands just don't fit.

So I've narrowed it down between a Sig Sauer .40 S&W and a Springfield Armory XD or the new XDM Polymer .40 all of which get excellent reviews.

The XD's come with three backstrap inserts for the grip so you can customize the hand-fit which I like alot.

Both of my choices are deemed to be accurate and reliable by the shooting community and although not as expensive as glock they are a bit pricey unless you really shop around. 

It's a sellers market right now so under $400 is challenging for my choices but you can get real close if you look around. Especially in the I just bought this but need to sell it to pay my gas bill classifieds.

The only thing annoying about the XD's is that they have an old school grip safety which is completely unecessary due to the other safety features on the gun, but, I don't think it would bother me that much, I just don't like stuff PUSHING on me when I shoot no matter what the purpose.


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## Kestrel (Oct 2, 2009)

270winchester said:


> (BTW here is California you are limited to 10. Imagine a Glock 34 with only 10 round capacity. :green


Heck, you got me at 'imagine living in California' :green:



Databyter said:


> So I've narrowed it down between a Sig Sauer .40 S&W [...]


I helped a friend shop for an autoloader & he settled on a Sig .40. I was impressed with the gun.


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## Patriot (Oct 2, 2009)

Databyter said:


> I'm in the market myself and have done extensive reading about this lately.
> 
> I like glocks on paper but they feel like 2x4's in my hands so it's just not for me. I demand a natural pointer and my hands just don't fit.
> 
> ...





If you think you might be taking up any competition or IDPA shooting, the Sigs can be a bit of a handicap. This is only a factor if you're interested in comparing your own shooting skills to other shooters, otherwise it's all in fun and practice so doesn't really matter. The XD on the other hand is pretty well suited to IDPA but still suffers from a higher bore centerline than the glock. The higher bore center contributes to muzzle flip, a specific component of felt recoil. The closer the bore axis is the web of the hand the lesser the effect of muzzle flip. Twist or recoil torque is another component which causes the larger bore diameters to have a greater felt twist... .45 more than .40, more than 9mm. The higher the bore centerline the greater the torquing component. Most of these effects are not easily seen with iron sights, but when using an electronic sight the amount of shot to shot deviation is easy to see. Ultimately this means more fractions of a second between shots on targets requiring two or more hits. Again, it's not very important other than in practical shooting events.


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## outersquare (Oct 2, 2009)

i don't care for the shape of the grip on glocks

but like they say, rent everything at the range and try it all before you decide.
my favorite is still sig..


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## gswitter (Oct 2, 2009)

270winchester said:


> (BTW here is California you are limited to 10. Imagine a Glock 34 with only 10 round capacity. :green


Have pre-ban mags become that hard to come by here? It's been a while since I looked.


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## Patriot (Oct 2, 2009)

gswitter said:


> Have pre-ban mags become that hard to come by here? It's been a while since I looked.



That's the max capacity allowed by CA law. Normal capacity mags are available in abundance.


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## gswitter (Oct 2, 2009)

Patriot said:


> That's the max capacity allowed by CA law. Normal capacity mags are available in abundance.


Last I checked (admittedly a while ago), the 10-round limit only applies to non-LE mags made/imported after the law went into effect. Mags in stock/posession before that (pre-bans) are legal.

The last time I bought a handgun, pre-ban mags for every model I was interested in were readily available - for a healthy premium, of course.


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## DaveN007 (Oct 2, 2009)

I am a big Glock fan, but it is interesting that the generation raised on Glocks often don't know the pleasure of a nice single action trigger on a quality 1911. My standard stainless Kimber is a blast to shoot at 25 yards. There is nothing like the stunned look on the face of a Glockster who has spent his life in front of 7 yard targets when he sees his 2 inch groups at 25 yards the first time he hefts an "old .45"

Inevitably the first shot comes as a surprise since the trigger pull is so different than a Glock. After that, even the most hardcore plastic gun fan has to admit that Browning got his design right oh so many years ago.

One of my favorite pistols is my Glock 19 with a finger rest magazine and 17 rounds of 9mm. 

Whether or not the "safe-action" trigger is safe enough to carry with a round in the chamber is frankly a personal opinion. There are a lot of "depends" in that answer.


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## 270winchester (Oct 2, 2009)

gswitter said:


> Have pre-ban mags become that hard to come by here? It's been a while since I looked.


In California the possession of pre-ban mags is not prohibited, but it's illegal to sell them to anyone else, not even to one's family members.

So any magazines you have from prior to 2000 can only be owned by you, and after you die they have to be disassembled into part kits.


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## Patriot (Oct 2, 2009)

gswitter said:


> Last I checked (admittedly a while ago), the 10-round limit only applies to non-LE mags made/imported after the law went into effect. Mags in stock/posession before that (pre-bans) are legal.
> 
> The last time I bought a handgun, pre-ban mags for every model I was interested in were readily available - for a healthy premium, of course.




They've been grandfathered in, so if there's no buying and selling allowed.........you get the idea. It's one of the silliest anti-second amendment measures in existence.


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## StarHalo (Oct 3, 2009)

Patriot said:


> They've been grandfathered in, so if there's no buying and selling allowed.........you get the idea. It's one of the silliest anti-second amendment measures in existence.



Hm, what about the police sign-off rule; You can own a firearm that's not on the legal list so long as a police officer signs off on it, I'd imagine you could do this with magazines as well..


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## 270winchester (Oct 3, 2009)

StarHalo said:


> Hm, what about the police sign-off rule; You can own a firearm that's not on the legal list so long as a police officer signs off on it, I'd imagine you could do this with magazines as well..



no such thing in California.

If a semiautomatic handgun or double action revolver is not on the approved list, you can only get it if:

1: you buy it from someone who is a resident of CA in a PPT(at a price premium)
2: from a cop who is allowed to buy off list handguns who then decides to sell his personal gun(at a price premium)
3: Have a parent from out of state gift you one, that one is tricky with some paperwork involved
4: you own the gun as a resident of a different state an move to CA with it.
5: a C&R gun older than a certain date
there might be other limited circumstances, but you cannot get a gun off the list signed off in anyway by a cop.

in California, if you are not a cop, the importation of a non-tubular magazine(pistol, rifle, shotgun, belt, for rim fire and center fire) with over 10 round capacity is a felony, so is manufacturing of a magazine over 10 rounds. No exceptions. In fact you cannot even lend it to anyone, that also constitute a felony.

http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/index.php/Large-capacity_magazine_restrictions


> 12020 (c)(25) As used in this section, "large-capacity
> magazine" means any ammunition feeding device with the capacity
> to accept more than 10 rounds, but shall not be construed to
> include any of the following:
> ...


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## 1wrx7 (Oct 3, 2009)

DaveN007 said:


> I am a big Glock fan, but it is interesting that the generation raised on Glocks often don't know the pleasure of a nice single action trigger on a quality 1911. My standard stainless Kimber is a blast to shoot at 25 yards. There is nothing like the stunned look on the face of a Glockster who has spent his life in front of 7 yard targets when he sees his 2 inch groups at 25 yards the first time he hefts an "old .45"
> 
> Inevitably the first shot comes as a surprise since the trigger pull is so different than a Glock. After that, even the most hardcore plastic gun fan has to admit that Browning got his design right oh so many years ago.
> 
> ...


 
Trigger pull is one of the main reasons I bought my Walther P99 in .40S&W. I get all of the joy of a polymer frame with both single and double action trigger pulls. When the slide is actuated the striker is cocked and the trigger goes to a short single action pull. For loaded chamber carrying I can press the decocker and it's ready with a long heavy double action trigger. I can easily go back to single action by pulling the slide back about 3/8 of an inch. The single action trigger pull isn't as nice as my Ruger .44mag, but it's shorter than a Glock. The double action pull with the P99 is much longer and heavier than a Glock.


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