# what are the brightest 5mm LEDs currently?



## ArisaemaDracontium (Dec 10, 2008)

I am a bit more of an amature about this then most of you, so forgive my ignorance a bit. I have a Zipka and several older bike lights that are clearly out classed by newer lights, even new 5mm LED based lights. I am hoping to upgrade these lamps with some "state of the art" high efficiency LEDs to imrpove the light output.

Can anyone tell me what brand/model of 5mm LED's I should be looking for and where a good place to buy them is?

Thanks,


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## TigerhawkT3 (Dec 10, 2008)

I think the Nichia GS is the most efficient 5mm at around 10L on 20mA. That compares to most 5mms like the Nichia CS at around 5L on 20mA. I've heard that the GS has some tint issues, so you might want to look for the Nichia DS, which has efficiency between CS and GS but supposedly has a nicer tint.

No idea where to buy them. Sorry.


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## Bullzeyebill (Dec 10, 2008)

TigerhawkT3 said:


> I think the Nichia GS is the most efficient 5mm at around 10L on 20mA. That compares to most 5mms like the Nichia CS at around 5L on 20mA. I've heard that the GS has some tint issues, so you might want to look for the Nichia DS, which has efficiency between CS and GS but supposedly has a nicer tint.
> 
> No idea where to buy them. Sorry.


 Arc is driving their GS's at 80mA's to the LED and getting about 10 lumens out the front. What about Cree's 5mm's at 20mA's?

bill


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## ArisaemaDracontium (Dec 10, 2008)

OK, i'm pretty basic about this stuff. I'm just going to remove the old LED's and put in the new ones. I have no idea how much power is going to them. I just have a very old Zipka and some bike lights.

Since these are pretty old lights any ideas on the range of Lumens they might be putting out now?


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## ergotelis (Dec 10, 2008)

Amilite.kr sells them.

Tint isn't the best for me, but for that size i can't find any better performance, you can't have everything. I love my Nichia GS, even though i have so many nice flashlights these tiny keychains are the one that i use most.Ideal for almost every indoor and 1m distance application, not only to find the keyhole.And they do last for a long time with some 3V lithium batteries.


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## Illum (Dec 10, 2008)

I would guess around 28,000 Mcd at 20ma:thinking:


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## ergotelis (Dec 10, 2008)

Illum_the_nation said:


> I would guess around 28,000 Mcd at 20ma:thinking:


Maybe more. See this post and all the thread if you want. It is very interesting, jtr1962 is doing great job.
https://www.candlepowerforums.com/posts/2433007&postcount=163


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## TigerhawkT3 (Dec 10, 2008)

80mA, and they're only getting 10L? That doesn't sound right at all. Not gonna last long, either.


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## Illum (Dec 10, 2008)

ergotelis said:


> Maybe more. See this post and all the thread if you want. It is very interesting, jtr1962 is doing great job.
> https://www.candlepowerforums.com/posts/2433007&postcount=163





hmmm, wow...I'm glad my estimates was at least being conservative... 44000 mcd, good god


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## Bullzeyebill (Dec 10, 2008)

TigerhawkT3 said:


> 80mA, and they're only getting 10L? That doesn't sound right at all. Not gonna last long, either.



Might be 12L. Actually all of Arc's AAA flashlights have been lasting a long time. The time to 50% output is about 5 hours, so there is a slope there where mA's drop off. I have a five year old Arc AAA that is still running strong.

Bill

Well, I think I screwed up my facts here re mA's to LED. I check back to Arc FAQ's and see the figure 45mA's, which is way lower than 80mA's. Don't know how I came up with 80, but I will do some more research and get back here.

bill


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## TigerhawkT3 (Dec 10, 2008)

By "not last long," I meant degradation of the LED, not runtime. 45mA is still pretty overdriven.


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## :)> (Dec 10, 2008)

Bullzeyebill said:


> What about Cree's 5mm's at 20mA's?


 
The Cree LED's are not as bright as the Nichia's but they have a much nicer tint and some excellent runtimes when driven at 20mA's.


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## Sgt. LED (Dec 10, 2008)

Where is a good place to buy some of those 5mm Cree's?

I want to play with some and send some to Milky!


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## Bullzeyebill (Dec 10, 2008)

Sgt. LED said:


> Where is a good place to buy some of those 5mm Cree's?
> 
> I want to play with some and send some to Milky!



Here: http://www.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail?name=LC503FWH1-15Q-A0-ND

Cree 5mm 24,000 mcd at 20mA to LED

Bill


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## ArisaemaDracontium (Dec 10, 2008)

OK, yeah, to be clear my question should have been: What are some nice, efficient 5mm LED's that are readily available for me to purchase (in the US), in a relatively small number (~20) that I could use to upgrade my old lights?

Thanks.


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## Bullzeyebill (Dec 11, 2008)

ArisaemaDracontium said:


> OK, yeah, to be clear my question should have been: What are some nice, efficient 5mm LED's that are readily available for me to purchase (in the US), in a relatively small number (~20) that I could use to upgrade my old lights?
> 
> Thanks.



Try digikey.com

Bill


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## Holepuncher (Dec 11, 2008)

Bullzeyebill said:


> Here: http://www.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail?name=LC503FWH1-15Q-A0-ND
> 
> Cree 5mm 24,000 mcd at 20mA to LED
> 
> Bill



Look up C503B-WAN-CCACB231-ND on digikey - Cree 5mm 28200mcd 20 ma. I have a batch of these and while I cant do a direct comparison (I dont have any loose nichia's) I find they blow away the Nichia in every aspect. I can only compare them to lights I have that use the fabled, out of this world Nichia. I assume the lights I have are driving the nichia at much more than 20 ma. Driving the Cree at 50 - 100 ma it maintains a white, bright clean round beam. I'll never understand what is so great about the nichia with is purple cigar shaped beam.


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## chimo (Dec 11, 2008)

Bullzeyebill said:


> Might be 12L. Actually all of Arc's AAA flashlights have been lasting a long time. The time to 50% output is about 5 hours, so there is a slope there where mA's drop off. I have a five year old Arc AAA that is still running strong.
> 
> Bill
> 
> ...



Link The ArcAAA is a boost circuit. The Iout depends on Vin. Check the blue line of the last graph in the first post.

Starting LED current is approximately for a fresh battery (note that the actual current will also depend on the particular Vf of the LED): 

NiMH: 50mA
Alkaline: 65mA
Lithium (E92): 80mA


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## jtr1962 (Dec 11, 2008)

Holepuncher said:


> Look up C503B-WAN-CCACB231-ND on digikey - Cree 5mm 28200mcd 20 ma. I have a batch of these and while I cant do a direct comparison (I dont have any loose nichia's) I find they blow away the Nichia in every aspect. I can only compare them to lights I have that use the fabled, out of this world Nichia. I assume the lights I have are driving the nichia at much more than 20 ma. Driving the Cree at 50 - 100 ma it maintains a white, bright clean round beam. I'll never understand what is so great about the nichia with is purple cigar shaped beam.


The price seems pretty reasonable too compared to Nichias if you order large quantity. Nichia CS is something like $80 for 100 at the Nichia store while these are only $47 for 100. In 5000s they're only $0.26 each, about on par with the better eBay LEDs.

Anyone else besides Digikey sell these? To make a long story short I stopped dealing with Digikey 2 years ago but would like to try some.

Same LED but with wide (110°) viewing angle


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## JohnR66 (Dec 11, 2008)

A few weeks ago, in this LED forum, I did some fade tests you might want to see. Unfortunately, no Nichias tested, but I tested some ebay (and other's) LEDs:

Avoid the 10-12 cent per LED ones (usually sold in 100 or 50 packs). While these are brighter than the LEDs from earlier this decade, they are not as bright as many decent ones now. Some of them showed significant lumen depreciation after my 192 hour test when driven at 30ma.

The best 5mm LEDs I've tried so far were from Light of Victory (ebay). These are 55kcmd 5mm 50 pack for around $17. While I question the intensity number, they are brighter than the cheaper ones and they held up in my overdrive test better.


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## jtr1962 (Dec 11, 2008)

JohnR66 said:


> A few weeks ago, in this LED forum, I did some fade tests you might want to see. Unfortunately, no Nichias tested, but I tested some ebay (and other's) LEDs:
> 
> Avoid the 10-12 cent per LED ones (usually sold in 100 or 50 packs). While these are brighter than the LEDs from earlier this decade, they are not as bright as many decent ones now. Some of them showed significant lumen depreciation after my 192 hour test when driven at 30ma.


Interesting results for your fade tests. I just want to point out that I personally consider 10 mA the maximum for indicator-type LEDs in any application where you're looking for longevity. 5 mA is even better. I'm aware of 5mm LEDs underdriven lasting tens of thousands of hours without much fading. The downside of running at 5 mA is that you need about 3 times the number of LEDs. However, it's about 40% more efficient than running at 20 mA. Just doing the math, a typical 5mm white LED might be about 20% efficient at 20 mA (the best ones are around 30%). That means roughly 50 mW of waste heat assuming Vf in the 3.2V area. At 5 mA the same LED might be around 28% efficient. Moreover, the Vf is lower by about 0.25V. You end up with perhaps 10 or 11 mW of waste heat. Basically, light output drops to about 30% running at 5 mA but waste heat and die temperature rise drops to 20% compared to 20 mA. Typical junction-to-ambient thermal impedance is around 300W/°C for 5mm LEDs. Assuming an ambient of 25°C, then junction temperature would be around 40°C at 20 mA but only 28.3°C at 5 mA.

Note that running at 80 mA as you did in your tests junction temperature probably exceeded 125°C. No wonder the LEDs faded quickly.



> The best 5mm LEDs I've tried so far were from Light of Victory (ebay). These are 55kcmd 5mm 50 pack for around $17. While I question the intensity number, they are brighter than the cheaper ones and they held up in my overdrive test better.


I'm pretty sure both Light Of Victory and Jeled sell the same LEDs. Comparing lead frames and beam patterns they seem very similar.


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## Oznog (Dec 11, 2008)

5mm will always be limited no matter what you do though.

They can only take a limited amount of power before thermal problems set in, because they have very little ability to dissipate heat properly relative to the power packages.

The large arrays do sort of get around the problem but become somewhat more difficult to drive off of batteries. Sufficiently long strings require high-ratio boost converters which get complicated. Lots of singles in parallel always involve ballast resistors which are much less efficient than small current shunt resistors controlling a buck converter. 

But that's not to say it won't work ok, all the cheap lights commonly use single LED strings in parallel with ballast resistors. A lot of the good ones, too. But a single power package will typically outperform quite handily.


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## Holepuncher (Dec 11, 2008)

jtr1962 said:


> Interesting results for your fade tests. I just want to point out that I personally consider 10 mA the maximum for indicator-type LEDs in any application where you're looking for longevity. 5 mA is even better. I'm aware of 5mm LEDs underdriven lasting tens of thousands of hours without much fading. The downside of running at 5 mA is that you need about 3 times the number of LEDs. However, it's about 40% more efficient than running at 20 mA. Just doing the math, a typical 5mm white LED might be about 20% efficient at 20 mA (the best ones are around 30%). That means roughly 50 mW of waste heat assuming Vf in the 3.2V area. At 5 mA the same LED might be around 28% efficient. Moreover, the Vf is lower by about 0.25V. You end up with perhaps 10 or 11 mW of waste heat. Basically, light output drops to about 30% running at 5 mA but waste heat and die temperature rise drops to 20% compared to 20 mA. Typical junction-to-ambient thermal impedance is around 300W/°C for 5mm LEDs. Assuming an ambient of 25°C, then junction temperature would be around 40°C at 20 mA but only 28.3°C at 5 mA.
> 
> Note that running at 80 mA as you did in your tests junction temperature probably exceeded 125°C. No wonder the LEDs faded quickly.


 
Actually I think he said 30ma for his test. I think JohnR66 did a good peice of work with his test but I also think the led's he tested were of questionable quality. No 5mm led from any of the major manufacturers would dim significantly with a slight overdrive after less than 200 hours. I know this is not the flashlight forum but I have at least 6 single 5mm led flashlights, made by the better names in flashlights, and every one is significantly overdriving the led - some are over 100ma. I have driven the Cree that I mentioned in my earlier post at 150 ma for 24 hours and saw no detectable damage to it. On the other hand I once had some no-name 10mm white leds that I placed in a light fixture in a room downstairs that has the light switch in an inconvenient place. These ran 24/7 at 25 ma and dimmed to nothing after a couple of months. I replaced them and ran them at 15ma and they dimmed to nothing in no time as well.


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## 2xTrinity (Dec 11, 2008)

> I think the Nichia GS is the most efficient 5mm at around 10L on 20mA. That compares to most 5mms like the Nichia CS at around 5L on 20mA. I've heard that the GS has some tint issues, so you might want to look for the Nichia DS, which has efficiency between CS and GS but supposedly has a nicer tint.


Let's assume forward voltage of 3.3 (pretty typical for white LEDs)

20 mA is 66 mW. 10 lumens/ 66mW = 150lm/watt. 

I'm certain that the GS's are not 150 lm/watt at their peak rated current. 

I recall that the new Fenix E0, which was taken apart by some members here, got 7 lumens @ 30mA, or almost 70lm/watt despite being overdriven. Which is still very good.


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## ArisaemaDracontium (Dec 11, 2008)

how would all of this compare to the light output of the old LEDs in my Zipka?


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## cave dave (Dec 11, 2008)

I replaced the 5mm LED's in my Tikka a while back with Nicha CS and almost doubled the brightness. The GS should triple or quadruple the brightness. It is a pretty easy mod.
I'm guessing the your old Zipka would be about 12 lm stock and near 40lm with GS LED.

The Nicha GS is the most efficient LED but has a more diffuse beam. The other LED's being recommended have a more pronounced moon type beam with a sharp transition from spot to spill. It may appear brighter because of the spot but there is actually less total light coming out the front. I prefer the floodier Nichia that has a better transition form spot to spill.

I would just post a WTB over on marketplace that I was looking for some. I got some DS LED's cheap that way.


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## JohnR66 (Dec 12, 2008)

Holepuncher said:


> Actually I think he said 30ma for his test. I think JohnR66 did a good peice of work with his test but I also think the led's he tested were of questionable quality. No 5mm led from any of the major manufacturers would dim significantly with a slight overdrive after less than 200 hours. I know this is not the flashlight forum but I have at least 6 single 5mm led flashlights, made by the better names in flashlights, and every one is significantly overdriving the led - some are over 100ma. I have driven the Cree that I mentioned in my earlier post at 150 ma for 24 hours and saw no detectable damage to it. On the other hand I once had some no-name 10mm white leds that I placed in a light fixture in a room downstairs that has the light switch in an inconvenient place. These ran 24/7 at 25 ma and dimmed to nothing after a couple of months. I replaced them and ran them at 15ma and they dimmed to nothing in no time as well.


 
Yes, it was the 30ma test. My test was using a camera. By eye, it was hard to tell any fading on some, but the camera's sensor showed the difference more. It is really hard to tell the difference unless you have a matched control set. Yes, some of those LEDs were really poor, but I think the others held out well. I did not heat sink them either.

Since the little 3mm Philips LED from the light string was so bright and did not fade in the 192 hour test at 30ma, I'd expect the Nichias to perform well too. I'd like to put my hands on some, but they are costly. I think the "Light of Victory" LEDs performed admirably for their price.

I have three different "fade" tests posted over the last month or so. Be sure to check them all. As I found, LED quality varies greatly.


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## Holepuncher (Dec 12, 2008)

JohnR66 said:


> Yes, it was the 30ma test. My test was using a camera. By eye, it was hard to tell any fading on some, but the camera's sensor showed the difference more. It is really hard to tell the difference unless you have a matched control set. Yes, some of those LEDs were really poor, but I think the others held out well. I did not heat sink them either.
> 
> Since the little 3mm Philips LED from the light string was so bright and did not fade in the 192 hour test at 30ma, I'd expect the Nichias to perform well too. I'd like to put my hands on some, but they are costly. I think the "Light of Victory" LEDs performed admirably for their price.
> 
> I have three different "fade" tests posted over the last month or so. Be sure to check them all. As I found, LED quality varies greatly.


 
Oh. I only seen 2 of your fade tests. I'll look for the other.

Where does one obtain these nichia's and how much are they? Everything about them seems elusive including specs.

Next time I order parts from digikey for the company I work for I am going to "sneak" in 25 more of the Cree 5mm's. Maybe I can send you a couple to do your fade test on. You are now the king of fade.


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## Holepuncher (Dec 12, 2008)

cave dave said:


> I'm guessing the your old Zipka would be about 12 lm stock and near 40lm with GS LED.


 
Where do you get 40lm from. I'm not sure but I think thats impossible. Hit me over the head if I'm wrong I have 2 Coast 7830 flashlights. I'm pretty sure they have a nichia in them because of the purple oval center spot. These are the brightest single 5mm lights I have seen. They are being direct driven from 4 coin cells at 125ma or approx 0.4 watts (with fresh batterys). Coast claims on the package that it is .77watt/5.5 lumens. I find that interesting because these are at least twice as bright as a fenix E01 which is rated at 10 lumens. Obviously someone is either overating or underating their product. But no way is the Coast putting out anyways near 40lm.


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## Holepuncher (Dec 12, 2008)

cave dave said:


> The Nicha GS is the most efficient LED but has a more diffuse beam. The other LED's being recommended have a more pronounced moon type beam with a sharp transition from spot to spill. It may appear brighter because of the spot but there is actually less total light coming out the front. I prefer the floodier Nichia that has a better transition form spot to spill.


 
Agreed on the cree having a more defined spot. Not sure if the nichia would best the cree in total light output by a large margin though. I'll have to see if there is any way to get one of my coast 7830's apart and put a cree 5mm in there.


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## Black Rose (Dec 12, 2008)

Holepuncher said:


> Where does one obtain these nichia's and how much are they? Everything about them seems elusive including specs.


I can't say 100%, but I believe that these are Nichia DS 5mm LEDs.

The specs provided match that of the spec sheet from the Nichia site.


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## Holepuncher (Dec 12, 2008)

Black Rose said:


> I can't say 100%, but I believe that these are Nichia DS 5mm LEDs.
> 
> The specs provided match that of the spec sheet from the Nichia site.


 
Interesting. I have 2 of those from led supply. If they are in fact nichias, the cree 5mm blows them away in every aspect. When I got them I said to myself "I just paid $2 each for this crap". I'll have to go play with them but now that you metion this I remember them having a distinct purple color and a funny shape center spot. If I take a picture can anyone here tell if its a nichia or not?


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## Cydonia (Dec 12, 2008)

This is where you get the GS ones:
Nichia 5mm GS B2V (5-pack) from the original CPF Sandwich shoppe. (Seems people have forgotten about this great source!)
Or buy the older Nichia CS 5 packs for $7.

People used to scavenge the DS leds from DX key chain lights - but since these appear to be in a permanent state of back order... and did the price go up?


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## jtr1962 (Dec 12, 2008)

Holepuncher said:


> Next time I order parts from digikey for the company I work for I am going to "sneak" in 25 more of the Cree 5mm's. Maybe I can send you a couple to do your fade test on. You are now the king of fade.


Can I buy a few off you for lumen testing? I've already tested the Nichia GS and I'd like to do a direct comparison. If these really blow away the GS then they're a bargain.


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## Holepuncher (Dec 12, 2008)

jtr1962 said:


> Can I buy a few off you for lumen testing? I've already tested the Nichia GS and I'd like to do a direct comparison. If these really blow away the GS then they're a bargain.


 
When I get them I'll send you a few no charge. See my next post. I'm gonna need backup.


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## Holepuncher (Dec 12, 2008)

Ok. I'm gonna catch hell here. If the nichia is the king of 5mm on this forum I herby dethrone it.

Black Rose pointed out the LED's at ledsupply.com. I checked the ones I have and they appear to be the same as the ones in the six or so 5mm flashlights I have. A couple I cant see to good because they use lenses rather than a reflector. The ledsupply.com led appears identical to the one in a Fenix E01 which definetly uses the nichia and the beams are quite similar as well. Playing around with the cree and the nichia these two are most certainly on equal ground. I was probably wrong in saying the cree blows away the nichia. The cree has the same amount of spill and just as bright. The center spot on the cree IMO is brighter, more defined and cleaner with only slightest hint of blue. The only place the nichia wins is in the very center of the nichias beam, where it is the most blue, it may be a tad brighter. I'll take the Cree any day for 50 cents. Its more pleasing.


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## jtr1962 (Dec 12, 2008)

Holepuncher said:


> When I get them I'll send you a few no charge. See my next post. I'm gonna need backup.


Thanks! Just going by the spec sheets I'd say the Cree should more or less be close to or even better than the GS in terms of output but testing will confirm it one way or the other. Even if it isn't, all the other things you've mentioned, plus the much lower price, pretty much seal the deal.


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## Bullzeyebill (Dec 12, 2008)

Holepuncher said:


> Ok. I'm gonna catch hell here. If the nichia is the king of 5mm on this forum I herby dethrone it.
> 
> Black Rose pointed out the LED's at ledsupply.com. I checked the ones I have and they appear to be the same as the ones in the six or so 5mm flashlights I have A couple I cant see to good because they use lenses rather than a reflector. The ledsupply.com led appears identical to the one in a Fenix E01 which definetly uses the nichia and the beams are quite similar as well. Playing around with the cree and the nichia these two are most certainly on equal ground. I was probably wrong in saying the cree blows away the nichia. The cree has the same amount of spill and just as bright. The center spot on the cree IMO is brighter, more defined and cleaner with only slightest hint of blue. The only place the nichia wins is in the very center of the nichias beam, where it is the most blue, it may be a tad brighter. I'll take the Cree any day for 50 cents. Its more pleasing.



Emdeavor is using the Cree 24,000 mcd for the Mako. Do you have any experience with it?? He is running it at 20mA high mode, and 6mA low mode.

Bill


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## Black Rose (Dec 12, 2008)

Of the two types of Cree 5mm I found at Digikey (P and Q), which would be the better one (i.e. less blue)? 

They are both 54 cents a piece (cheaper than the 88 cents I paid for Nichia DS and GS).


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## JohnR66 (Dec 12, 2008)

If anyone one wants me to "fade" test Nichia LEDs, I'd be happy to do that. I would need two pre matched LEDs of the same model. Please be certain beyond a reasonable doubt they are the correct model. It would be unfair to to test a Nichia XX model when it is not.

On another note, Sometimes a LED can be identified by the patten stamped on the "die cup" (cathode) lead. Some are plain, some have horizontal ridges at various position, some have a diamond pattern of dots on one side, some on both and so on. You would have to know what they use first.

Superbrightleds.com 5mm whites are stamped on one side with a diamond pattern of dots. I wonder where they get their LEDs?

jtr1962, have you looked at the Radio Shack 276-0017 LEDs? They are neutral white (4,100K perhaps) 30 Deg. They are just a tad warmer than the Osram Golden dragon LED. I tried one pack and assume they are all this lovely shade of white.


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## jtr1962 (Dec 12, 2008)

JohnR66 said:


> jtr1962, have you looked at the Radio Shack 276-0017 LEDs? They are neutral white (4,100K perhaps) 30 Deg. They are just a tad warmer than the Osram Golden dragon LED. I tried one pack and assume they are all this lovely shade of white.


No, I haven't been to Radio Shack in ages actually. I pretty much gave up on them for LEDs after seeing their white LED selling for $5. I just checked that part number online and price is $1.99 for two. Next time I walk that way I'll see if they have it in stock. BTW, I'm pretty sure going by the tapered shape I've seen for Radio Shack white LEDs that they are Nichia. If so, then $1 each isn't a horrible price.


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## cave dave (Dec 12, 2008)

I can sort of tell Nichia LEDs from other brand LEDs by looking at them but I don't think there is a way to identify BS, from CS or DS, except brightness of light they put out. I think the GS might be a bit longer but I haven't seen on of those uninstalled.

If I recall correctly in a ArcAAA they had guaranteed the following *minimum *outputs.
BS = about 3 lumens
CS = 5.5 lm
DS = 9 lm
GS = 10 lm

The 40 lm figure was 10lm x 4 LEDs, a bit less than the 45lm princeton Tec Quad because I think the PT quad is being driven harder.

If I were the original poster I would give away the zipka and buy the new EOS.


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## Black Rose (Dec 12, 2008)

cave dave said:


> I can sort of tell Nichia LEDs from other brand LEDs by looking at them but I don't think there is a way to identify BS, from CS or DS, except brightness of light they put out. I think the GS might be a bit longer but I haven't seen on of those uninstalled.


The LED portion of the GS is a couple of mm taller than the DS.

I'd post a pic of them side by side, but my wife's boss has our camera at the moment.


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## milkyspit (Dec 13, 2008)

The GS light-producing element is slightly rectangular, whereas in BS and Cs it is square... note this is BENEATH the phosphor layer, so you'd want to light the LED very dimly and look into the top, or perhaps look at the hotspot from very close distance on a white wall.

As for the Cree 5mm, there have been two of them mentioned and it isn't immediately clear what the difference between them is... do they contain different dice?

:thinking:


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## chimo (Dec 13, 2008)

milkyspit said:


> The GS light-producing element is slightly rectangular, whereas in BS and Cs it is square... note this is BENEATH the phosphor layer, so you'd want to light the LED very dimly and look into the top, or perhaps look at the hotspot from very close distance on a white wall.
> 
> As for the Cree 5mm, there have been two of them mentioned and it isn't immediately clear what the difference between them is... do they contain different dice?
> 
> :thinking:



Bingo! Here is a thread I did a whiel back showing the die of a GS.


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## Black Rose (Dec 13, 2008)

I've been looking at the Cree 5mm datasheets and notice they mention that the LEDs either do or do not have a stopper.

What do they mean by "stopper"? The little bulges on the leads?


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## ArisaemaDracontium (Dec 18, 2008)

*what about red?*

Just to stir the pot a little bit, what about red LED's? What are the brighest ones I can buy and where do I get them?

Thanks for all the input so far!


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## Cydonia (Dec 18, 2008)

*Re: what about red?*



ArisaemaDracontium said:


> Just to stir the pot a little bit, what about red LED's? What are the brighest ones I can buy and where do I get them?
> 
> Thanks for all the input so far!




That's a good question. They would be around 620nm, cherry red, almost a hint of orange to some eyes. The brightest I found in a standard 5mm T 1-3/4 package were "only" about 6000mcd. Yep... they are nice. But I do not believe for a second that there are not brighter ones available though!

There really ought to be a sticky in this forum section with links to all sources for Nichia CS LED's etc., because everyone asks "where do I buy so and so LED?" every few days. :shrug:


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## Lynx_Arc (Dec 18, 2008)

Black Rose said:


> I've been looking at the Cree 5mm datasheets and notice they mention that the LEDs either do or do not have a stopper.
> 
> What do they mean by "stopper"? The little bulges on the leads?


probably the bottom lip of the LED typically where an Oring can be inside a light with no lens to help seal it.


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## Illum (Dec 19, 2008)

Black Rose said:


> I've been looking at the Cree 5mm datasheets and notice they mention that the LEDs either do or do not have a stopper.
> 
> What do they mean by "stopper"? The little bulges on the leads?







they could also be referring to the bulges on the lead pins, which is quite useful if the mounting option is thru-hole


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## codypop (Dec 22, 2008)

These Nichia are supposed to be typically 30,000 mcd at 20 mA. The best bin are rated up to 44,000 mcd!

They're currently out of stock at LEDSales. I'm going to get some and mod the flood beam of my Apex...


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## JohnR66 (Dec 22, 2008)

Illum_the_nation said:


> http://imageshack.us
> 
> they could also be referring to the bulges on the lead pins, which is quite useful if the mounting option is thru-hole


 
Unless you are referring to a certain part of the flange, the rim around the bottom is the flange as many LED are sold as "flangeless". I guess Nichia can have their own definition.

When I read their specs, I kind of got the impression the "stopper" was the bulges on the leads.


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## Resqueline (Dec 22, 2008)

I ordered a 5 pack NSPW500GS-K1 b2v 5mm LED's rated at 31000mcd-44000mcd for $15 from TheLEDguy's Sandwich Shoppe almost a week ago (guess they're here soon). Expensive, but then I believe it should be the best. I see the net shop is out of stock right now but it's just a matter of an email to them & they'll restock.


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## shortstack (Dec 22, 2008)

just get the multi-chip off ebay


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## Sgt. LED (Feb 18, 2009)

OK we have these 2 5MM cree options at DIGIkey and 1 seems like it will be a tad brighter but what I am interested in is the tint. I want to pick whichever one has the least center blue. I understand the cree 5mm is a better looking spot that the Nichia's funky square in a circle pattern.

Any info for me?

http://www.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail?name=LC503FWH1-15Q-A0-ND

http://www.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail&name=C503B-WAN-CCACB231-ND

If you have a source for another bright, efficient option with a nice clean spot that isn't blue tinted by all means let me know.


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## Bullzeyebill (Feb 19, 2009)

Sgt. LED said:


> OK we have these 2 5MM cree options at DIGIkey and 1 seems like it will be a tad brighter but what I am interested in is the tint. I want to pick whichever one has the least center blue. I understand the cree 5mm is a better looking spot that the Nichia's funky square in a circle pattern.
> 
> Any info for me?
> 
> ...



Not sure, but I bet that the first Cree 5mm is the one that Endeavor is using for the Mako. He mentioned a Cree 5mm and 24,000mcd, if I recall right.

Bill


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## Sgt. LED (Feb 19, 2009)

Ah that is a little telling, thank you for that tidbit!


I got to purchase a good number of these so I want to be really sure before the $$ is gone!


Digikey's ordering system looks interesting bordering on impossible....................................


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## milkyspit (Feb 19, 2009)

Sgt. LED said:


> Ah that is a little telling, thank you for that tidbit!
> 
> 
> I got to purchase a good number of these so I want to be really sure before the $$ is gone!
> ...




If you're used to ordering at a site like Amazon.com or NewEgg.com, the Digikey order system will seem pretty unwieldy, with its multiple references to PDF catalog pages, flaky search engine, cryptic product descriptions, obscure datasheet links (or sometimes none at all), semi-useless photos, etc.

Believe it or not, the other electronics distributor websites (Arrow, Avnet, Future, Newark, etc.) are even worse! oo:

It sometimes seems as if some of these places don't want anyone to order... or that in their bloated corporate minds they're doing you a favor by choosing to accept the order at all. That said, Digikey IMHO is one of the best of the worst, so to speak!


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## Sgt. LED (Feb 23, 2009)

:thumbsup: Thanks Scott!

I'm just gonna call them and be done with it. These cree 5mm are so much better than the slightly more efficient nichia for what I am going for.


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## Cemoi (Feb 23, 2009)

Sgt. LED said:


> Digikey's ordering system looks interesting bordering on impossible



I couldn't find their shipping fees on their website.
Does anyone know how much they charge to the US on the one hand, and to Europe on the other hand?


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## milkyspit (Feb 23, 2009)

Sgt. LED said:


> :thumbsup: Thanks Scott!
> 
> I'm just gonna call them and be done with it. These cree 5mm are so much better than the slightly more efficient nichia for what I am going for.




If you have the chance, please drop a couple in an envelope and mail to me for testing, if you don't mind sparing a couple pieces... I'd like to mount them on some test MC2 units and see how they stack up to the Nichia GS for that application. Who knows... you might end up with them in your unit in the end!


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## Sgt. LED (Feb 23, 2009)

I will send some to you! :twothumbs

You should like them.


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## Cemoi (Feb 26, 2009)

ArisaemaDracontium said:


> how would all of this compare to the light output of the old LEDs in my Zipka?



See this post.


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## JohnR66 (Feb 26, 2009)

Could someone perform a 30ma 192 hour test on the Crees? If they fade, then there would be not much use for them long term.

I can do this if you guys don't have the time.


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## milkyspit (Feb 26, 2009)

I'd do it if I had some.


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## Bullzeyebill (Feb 26, 2009)

JohnR66 said:


> Could someone perform a 30ma 192 hour test on the Crees? If they fade, then there would be not much use for them long term.
> 
> I can do this if you guys don't have the time.



Please do that. Thanks,

Bill


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## JohnR66 (Feb 26, 2009)

Bullzeyebill said:


> Please do that. Thanks,
> 
> Bill


 
I should mention I'd need two LEDs to test with. I'd buy some but I have spent so much on LEDs lately, my budget is blown. I hoping for donations for testing.

I test LEDs for my use, but share the results on this board so others don't need to waste money on a product that won't hold up.


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## Sgt. LED (Feb 26, 2009)

I will shoot you 2 of them for testing. No problem.

If you could, I'd love to see a runtime/output graph of these alongside those RS 5mm's. 

Just shoot me your address in a PM.

:thumbsup:

I'd like to see the data from your and Scott's testing! The more testing data the better I say.

The shipping to me on these was $4 and some change. Not terrible but I did order 75 of them.


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## ledstein (Feb 27, 2009)

I have some Nichia White 5mm LED, 44000mcd, 10°, 20mA, NSPW500GS-K1-b1/b2-V/W left from a project. I could do 192hr burn up test at 30mA if you want....


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## JohnR66 (Feb 27, 2009)

ledstein said:


> I have some Nichia White 5mm LED, 44000mcd, 10°, 20mA, NSPW500GS-K1-b1/b2-V/W left from a project. I could do 192hr burn up test at 30mA if you want....


 
Yes, please do. I'd be interested in the results.


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## ledstein (Mar 2, 2009)

I did better. Here are the results from a professional 1360 hour test:

https://www.candlepowerforums.com/posts/2860007#post2860007


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## metlarules (Mar 3, 2009)

Sgt. LED said:


> Ah that is a little telling, thank you for that tidbit!
> 
> 
> I got to purchase a good number of these so I want to be really sure before the $$ is gone!
> ...


 I don't know if you ordered them yet but in the description of the leds one says white the other says cool white. It sounds like you want the white ones. The white is 24,000 and the cool is I think 28,000 +.


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## Sgt. LED (Mar 4, 2009)

I noticed that and ordered the white ones.

30 of those are on thier way to Milky's now for MC2 viability testing.


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## bretti_kivi (Mar 4, 2009)

... and a comparison between the crees and Nichias would be really nice. 24k vs 44k is a big difference; CRI might compensate for some of this, but...


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## Sgt. LED (Mar 4, 2009)

True


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## Blue72 (Mar 4, 2009)

Can't Wait


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## kuksul08 (Apr 2, 2009)

Any updates?

I am looking at 

C503B-WAN-CCACB231 
and
LC503FWH1-15Q-A0

Has anyone purchased these that can tell me the differences in tint, brightness, etc?


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## JohnR66 (Apr 3, 2009)

Some thoughts on the cree 24cd at digikey.

Looking at Cree's datasheet, they are binned and 24cd seems to be the max brightness. Also says NFND (not for new design). A new part number shows for similar product.

Did anyone see my "fade" test of them a few weeks ago. (Thanks Sgt. LED for sending a couple to try) They did not fade, but they did not stand out in brightness. I also compared several LEDs against the Nichia GS in another test (also posted here). The GS pretty much put them all to shame. It is just friggen bright and by quite a margin.

A couple nice things about the 24cd Cree is that it has a white tint without being too cool or violet/blue. A tight beam makes good use of its output, so it is fine for flashlight projects.


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## kuksul08 (Apr 3, 2009)

JohnR66 said:


> Some thoughts on the cree 24cd at digikey.
> 
> Looking at Cree's datasheet, they are binned and 24cd seems to be the max brightness. Also says NFND (not for new design). A new part number shows for similar product.
> 
> ...




Are you referring to cree 5mm?

I'm assuming it's quite similar to cree 5mm LED 2

The only white LEDs I have played with are those 14cd from DX, and they aren't very bright.


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## Bullzeyebill (Apr 3, 2009)

kuksul08 said:


> Are you referring to cree 5mm?
> 
> I'm assuming it's quite similar to cree 5mm LED 2
> 
> The only white LEDs I have played with are those 14cd from DX, and they aren't very bright.



Have you read this thread, which is about 5mm LEDs? What are similarities/differences of the Cree 24,000mcd and the 28,000mcd, besides higher mcd? Similar Kelvin temp?

Bill


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## JohnR66 (Apr 3, 2009)

kuksul08 said:


> Are you referring to cree 5mm?
> 
> I'm assuming it's quite similar to cree 5mm LED 2
> 
> The only white LEDs I have played with are those 14cd from DX, and they aren't very bright.


 
Yes to the first one. The second ones will be more blueish white, but brighter. I'd like the 24cd ones because of less blue in the light.

I think you would be happy with these considering the DX LEDs you have. I've heard the DX LEDs were purplish white (ugh).


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## Cemoi (Apr 10, 2009)

Holepuncher said:


> Look up C503B-WAN-CCACB231-ND on digikey - Cree 5mm 28200mcd 20 ma.


Thanks for the link. When I placed my order this one was out of stock, so I ordered C503B-WAN-CCACB151-ND instead, which is apparently exactly the same item, and marginally cheaper.


> I have a batch of these and while I cant do a direct comparison (I dont have any loose nichia's) I find they blow away the Nichia in every aspect.



I did a direct comparison with a loose Nichia GS, and I find the Nichia to be much brighter: when pointed towards my ceiling, the Cree will slightly light the room and I see no hotspot on the ceiling, whereas the Nichia makes the room significantly better lit, and there is a very bright hotspot on the ceiling.
While the Nichia hotspot is quite blueish, the spill light from the Nichia is warmer than that from the Cree, and the color rendition of objects in the room is better with the Nichia.


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## metlarules (Apr 10, 2009)

I tried a few of the Cree leds( http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail&name=LC503FWH1-15Q-A0-ND). The color tint is nice but they don't have much spill beam at all. Mostly spot. I'm comparing them to the led in my Gerber IU.


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