# IMR Setups



## [email protected]

Hi Guys,

There has been many questions and speculations on the new IMR setups, so I would just like to talk about it with you guys so no lamp will instaflash when it doesn't have to.

To moderators: If this is not an appropriate forum, please move the thread accordingly.

Here are some setups that we have tested and should work with no problems.

1 Cell Setups: EO-4 , EO-E1R.
2 Cell Setups: EO-9, EO-9L, EO-M3, EO-M3T, HO-R5, EO-E2R.
3 Cell Setups: EO-13, HO-M6R.

All of the above setups will have no problems used with a clickie tailcap, but we do recommend using a twisty tailcap for the IMR setups.

Please do not use 12V lamps on a 3 cell setup.

Cheers,

Mark


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## cl0123

[email protected] said:


> ...so no lamp will instaflash when it doesn't have to.
> 
> 1 Cell Setups: EO-4 , EO-E1R.
> *2 Cell Setups: EO-9, EO-9L, EO-M3, EO-M3T, HO-R5, EO-E2R.*
> 3 Cell Setups: EO-13, HO-M6R.



Mark, 

Thanks for the information, I appreciate the that. In fact, I just made through another weekend without a blown bulb. 

I'll be tuning in on the 2 cell setups, for sure. :twothumbs

Edit: Looking forward to the release of the IMR lamps as well.

With Aloha, 

Clarence


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## brighterisbetter

cl0123 said:


> Looking forward to the release of the IMR lamps as well.


+1


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## Mungon

Originally Posted by *cl0123* 

 
_Looking forward to the release of the IMR lamps as well._
_ _
_+ 2 :twothumbs_


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## cenz

hi mark,

Are these lamps just only for IMR-16340 / and IMR18650?


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## Outdoors Fanatic

Great stuff Mark!


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## Brizzler

[email protected] said:


> ...
> 
> All of the above setups will have no problems used with a clickie tailcap, but we do recommend using a twisty tailcap for the IMR setups.
> 
> ...



Why are twisties not recommended...?!?


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## bxstylez

it says he DO recommend using a twisty

.


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## [email protected]

Yes, we DO recommend Twisties if you have it and if you only have a Clicky then you can also use them on the above setups.

I say this because the Clicky setup is a NONO on the newer IMR lamp series, but for the above setups, you still CAN use a clicky. (Although we recommend the twisty for any IMR setups)

Cenz,

No, the above lamps has been around for a long time now and they are designed for the common CR123A and non-IMR 3.7V rechargeables. I am just clarifying to people that if they want to use IMR setups then that's how they should use them. I posted these setups so people do not have to go "Trial and Error" with the new IMR battery setups and kill their lamps for no reason.


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## brighterisbetter

Mark, I hope this isn't too off topic, but I've got a quick question for you.

EDIT - PM replied thanks.


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## [email protected]

Yes, it is kind of off topic.
So I will PM you on this.

Thanks.

Mark


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## Brizzler

Special achievement on my part, misreading your post Mark, sorry


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## Stage Tech

Mark ,
Just to clear my brain ,
My SF M2 comes with a press for momentary on / twist for constant light locked on.
I now use a Click on lock out tailcap , so I don't have to twist when I need always on .
With the new IMR setup , i can only use the original one ? What's the difference between momentary on use , and a click on tailcap ?
Or we cannot momentary on anymore with these new setups ? 
I'm a LITTLE Confused with how can I use these new setups with my M2.
Thanks , and sorry for the mess ,
Regards
Julian


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## shomie911

Stage Tech said:


> Mark ,
> Just to clear my brain ,
> My SF M2 comes with a press for momentary on / twist for constant light locked on.
> I now use a Click on lock out tailcap , so I don't have to twist when I need always on .
> With the new IMR setup , i can only use the original one ? What's the difference between momentary on use , and a click on tailcap ?
> Or we cannot momentary on anymore with these new setups ?
> I'm a LITTLE Confused with how can I use these new setups with my M2.
> Thanks , and sorry for the mess ,
> Regards
> Julian



The Clicky tailcap, when used with the soon to be release lamp assemblies for the new IMR rechargeable battery cells, will likely fail under the high-amp draw.

Twisty/Momentary tailcaps can operate under much higher-amp conditions.

Just to be clear, as Mark said, all the lamp assemblies designed for regular li-ion rechargeables (including all the ones he listed at the top) will work fine with Clicky tailcaps.

It's just the unreleased ones for the IMR cells that you have to worry about when using Clicky tailcaps.

Hope that helps.


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## Stage Tech

So , the problem / Weak part in this setup is the tailcap ??
I tought it was the lamp that couldn't handle a instant or continuous on / off.
Is the click on lock-out tailcap in my surfire weaker than the twist one in wich way ?
Thanks
Julian


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## shomie911

Stage Tech said:


> So , the problem / Weak part in this setup is the tailcap ??
> I tought it was the lamp that couldn't handle a instant or continuous on / off.
> Is the click on lock-out tailcap in my surfire weaker than the twist one in wich way ?
> Thanks
> Julian



No the lamp is fine being used momentarily / instant on and off.

The "clicky" tailcap has electronics inside that cannot handle what the IMR cells are capable of giving under a high-amp draw.

The "twisty" tailcap has no electronics and is much simpler.


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## Stage Tech

Interesting !
Thanks


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## foxtrot29

Any plans for an LED for the E-series?? That would be amazing.


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## Bullzeyebill

shomie911 said:


> No the lamp is fine being used momentarily / instant on and off.
> 
> The "clicky" tailcap has electronics inside that cannot handle what the IMR cells are capable of giving under a high-amp draw.
> 
> The "twisty" tailcap has no electronics and is much simpler.



There are no electronics in the SF clicky tailcap. It is a mechanical switch. Contact points move when the switch is activated, allowing current to flow.

Bill

Bill


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## Stage Tech

So , is the surefire click on tailcap an exception ?


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## shomie911

Bullzeyebill said:


> There are no electronics in the SF clicky tailcap. It is a mechanical switch. Contact points move when the switch is activated, allowing current to flow.
> 
> Bill
> 
> Bill



So why are Surefire clickies not recommended by Mark then?


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## brighterisbetter

Stage Tech said:


> So , is the surefire click on tailcap an exception ?


The 'search' feature is your friend 

https://www.candlepowerforums.com/posts/1562430&postcount=8


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## mdocod

There's a combination of things that need to be taken into consideration here:

1. The IMR16340 cells, and also 18650 size with same chemistry (soon to be sold by AW and already found in li-ion tool packs), are capable of delivering massive burst rates of current. And are also capable of sustained current draw of up to ~4A+ for the 16340 size and ~20A for the 18650 size (depending on brand). 
2. Cold filaments have very low resistance.
3. CR123s and regular LiCo chemistry li-ion cells have more resistance than LiMn chemistry cells. Protected LiCo cells also have some added resistance from the PCB circuit. 
4. The combination of lower resistance cells (LiMn) and a cold filament, is likely to cause higher initial burst rates of current on bulb startup than the clickie switches were originally designed to "switch."
5. Surefire clickie switches are designed around CR123s driving a maximum of ~2.5A, with burst rates probably never exceeding ~4A on a cold filament. (guesstimating). 
6. When using LiMn chemistry cells to drive these same ~2.5A lamp, the initial burst rate is probably more like 6 amps (guesstimating), and the running current is probably more like 2.7A. 
7. LF is releasing a new line of lamps in the near future that will probably have running current higher than the highest current SF lamps (with the exception of the MN21, which is generally only found used in the M6 with the twisty).
8. The new high current lamps are going to have both running current and initial burst rates a fair bit higher than the SF clicky is really designed to handle.

What conclusions would I draw from all this?
1. Using LiMn (IMR) cells, even with currently available high current lamps, like the EO-9/EO-M3/EO-M3T/P91/MN11/MN16, will probably slightly increase the risk of a clickie switch failure. 
2. Using LiMn (IMR) cells, with lamps that draw more power than the lamps listed above, like the new line of IMR specific lamps from LF, is going to increase the chances of causing a clickie failure even more. 

Basically, use existing lamps with IMR cells with clickies at your own risk, don't use them on the new IMR lamps.


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## [email protected]

Yes, what mdocod is "exactly" what I meant in every sense of the word. 

SO I will quote, 
*"1. Using LiMn (IMR) cells, even with currently available high current lamps, like the EO-9/EO-M3/EO-M3T/P91/MN11/MN16, will probably slightly increase the risk of a clickie switch failure. *
*2. Using LiMn (IMR) cells, with lamps that draw more power than the lamps listed above, like the new line of IMR specific lamps from LF, is going to increase the chances of causing a clickie failure even more. *

*Basically, use existing lamps with IMR cells with clickies at your own risk, don't use them on the new IMR lamps."*

Remember we have fried 3 clickies, (4 now). With the quickest fry in 2 minutes. We have done the "trial and error" testings for you, so you don't have to. So please if you have a twisty, use that to be safe even on the above setups. Clickies aren't actually cheap to buy you know.


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## NoFair

Great info Mark.

Thanks mdocod, I assumed that was the reason 

Sverre


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## brunt_sp

Thanks mdocod/Mark. So now I really want Surefire to re-release the SW01 twisty tailcap as I don't want to burn out my SW02s.


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## Stage Tech

Any word on the Surefire M series Clickie tailcap handling the IMR + new lamps ? it doesn't have eletronics....?!
Thanks ,
Julian


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## [email protected]

Julian,

If it is a clicky, it is a definate NO for the new IMR lamps that will be released, those will have model numbers that have IMR in the front.

If you are using it for a IMR battery setup with the current line-up of lamps (that doesn't have "IMR" in the model number) then you COULD use the clickies, but we recommend you to use the twisty tailcaps.


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## Mungon

Is there a twisty taile cap for SF and copys of SF ? or is it possible to make a twisty out off a clicky one ?


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## ampdude

glad I got my z52's :naughty:

I'm eagerly anticipating some 3.6v and 7.2v IMR lamps for E-series.

Have you fried any Vital Gear clickies?

I guess the Z57/Z61 is out. Was that the latest version of the switch you tried?


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## shomie911

Mungon said:


> Is there a twisty taile cap for SF and copys of SF ? or is it possible to make a twisty out off a clicky one ?



All C-series (6P, 9P, C2, C3, Z2, G2, G3) and M-series (M3, M4, M6, M2) come stock with a "Twisty" (also known as "Momentary") tailcap.

What Surefire do you have that is compatible with the lamps listed above by Mark that doesn't come stock with a "Twisty" tailcap?


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## ampdude

He might have a 6PD.


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## Stage Tech

I'm impressed to know that surefire "all terrain" M series clicky tailcap cannot handle this new setup....
Sure glad I have both models.
looking forward to get my hands on the new IMR lamps.
Thanks Mark !


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## Mungon

Well I do have a 6p but also one solarfoce l2 and it wold bee nice to get two imr setups going  
That sayed is it possible to hmm short out the tailcap on a l2 to act like a twisty ? or am I missing how it works ? I meen remov the switch and hmm plugg the cap to leed curent or ground it to the boddy and so on ?


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## mdocod

The solar-force clickie is a reverse clickie, it's *possible* it might handle the current, but IIRC the switches in them are rated for like 1.5A, but I have used a similar reverse clickie (on an ultrafire) for years on loads above that, many of the time on a P91. Reverse clickie designs tend to be more robust as far as the amount of current they can repeatedly switch before failure. 

My recommendation is as follows if you have a solarforce clicker that you want to use on an IMR setup.

1. Be prepared to sacrifice the clickie, consider it sacrificed the second you put the configuration together.
2. If it does fail, then worry about trying to modify it into a twisty- yes, it's probably possible.

Eric


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## Mungon

Thank you for that Erik Im runing my l2 with an FM d26 unit and FM 1794 bulb and it holds upp .... now .. should work with IMR to if not ,,its tomorrows problem  it looks like a bright future .


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## StarHalo

Mungon said:


> Im runing my l2 with an FM d26 unit and FM 1794 bulb and it holds upp .... now .. should work with IMR



I've been considering this setup, do report back


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## mdocod

If it's handling the 1794, then that's probably in the ballpark of where the IMR lamps are going to be current wise, (The IMRs may be a tad higher or lower, hard to say at this point, just have to wait and see). 

Eric


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## Mungon

StarHalo
iv run the setup for aproximatly 1 ½ mounth and dont see any problems yet ... its 3 or 4 sets of charging in it and still is bright  and works good .

Micke


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## StarHalo

Mungon said:


> StarHalo
> iv run the setup for aproximatly 1 ½ mounth and dont see any problems yet ... its 3 or 4 sets of charging in it and still is bright  and works good .



With the IMR cells? If so, this is very promising, thank you :twothumbs


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## Mungon

StarHalo Sorry but no not imr I run the lamp on 2 AW 18650 and yes Iv got it bored out to fit the batterys and have two exteders on it .


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## Mungon

Well now I'v run it thru 2 charges in the IMR Setups and its still working in the L2 and reversclicky so il report back when i have run thru some more charges 
Micke


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## FredericoFreire

The IMR-M3T should be used with 3x IMR123 cells or with 2x IMR cells?

The IMR-M6 could be used with 3x IMR123 cells on a SF M3T or just can be used on a SF M6 with 6 cells?

I'm pretty confused because the actual products from LF, EO-M3T for exemple, says it is compatible with M3T using 3 x CR123A or 2 x 3.7V Rechargeable. :thinking:

The IMR cells are only offered on two form factors, 18650 and 16340. So it I stick 2x16340 IMR cells with the IMR-M3T LA will drain the cells very quick!

Sorry for the mess, any anwers will be apreciated.


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## Bullzeyebill

Fred, the only real benefit of IMR16340 is that you can run the very high amp drain bulbs in small format flashlights, and then only for a short time, bulbs that would not hardly light up with regular RCR123's. Use the IMR18650 for longer runtimes, and/0r more powerful bulbs.

Bill


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## FredericoFreire

Ok. What Lumens Factory LA should I pick to install with 3x IMR-123 on a 9P + KT1 turbohead?


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## mdocod

FredericoFreire said:


> Ok. What Lumens Factory LA should I pick to install with 3x IMR-123 on a 9P + KT1 turbohead?



Depends on what your goals are:

One option is the HO-M6R, 700 bulb lumens, 13 minutes estimated runtime.
The other option is the IMR-M6, (not yet released as far as I know), which will be 1000 bulb lumen, I'm guessing closer to 8 minutes runtime on that (but don't have exact bulb information to work with on that).

The other alternative is an FM bi-pin adapter and a WA1185, which would probably be something like 1200 bulb lumen, with a runtime of maybe 7 minutes.

Eric


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## FredericoFreire

mdocod said:


> Depends on what your goals are:
> 
> One option is the HO-M6R, 700 bulb lumens, 13 minutes estimated runtime.
> The other option is the IMR-M6, (not yet released as far as I know), which will be 1000 bulb lumen, I'm guessing closer to 8 minutes runtime on that (but don't have exact bulb information to work with on that).
> 
> The other alternative is an FM bi-pin adapter and a WA1185, which would probably be something like 1200 bulb lumen, with a runtime of maybe 7 minutes.
> 
> Eric



Thanks for you answer. Maybe those lamp assemblies are more suitable to use with a M6 with 6 cells. So it will have a bit extended runtime.

If I pick one EO-M3T or one HO-M3T, my unique options with IMR-123 cells would be 2 of them? So, the runtime wouldn't be much longer... Things will be better when they release IMR18650 cells.


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## mdocod

Hi Frederico,

If you are after runtime, then you can skip the whole IMR concept. LiMn has less energy density than the current breed of LiCo cells that we are more familiar with. The ONLY reason to build an "IMR" based setup is to get more output into a compact 2-3 CR123 size light, or 2x18650 size light, with the sacrifice of runtime. 

Share with us your goals and I'll try to make some suggestions.

Eric


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## FredericoFreire

I'm still not 100% sure what I'm after. I want output, but with a minimal runtime enough to keep full light more than 10 min.

I'm thinking about 2x IMR16340 with one HO-M3T or one EO-M3T. The first one will have lower output but longer runtime. What your opinions? Witch one would you pick?

Using one of the LA's listed above wouldn't need that much current and would be indicated to use the older RCR-123 Lithium cells with much more energy density?

Fred


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## mdocod

On "CR123" *size* cells, it doesn't matter if you go with the HO-M3T or EO-M3T, you HAVE to use the IMR cells. The HO-M3T is a 2 amp load, the EO-M3T is a 2.4A load (from memory). Anything ~1.3A or higher should be used with IMR16340s instead of protected RCR123s. 

The EO-M3T *might* last right around 10 minutes (by my estimate) on IMR16340s, but IMO, the difference between the HO-M3T and EO-M3T isn't going to be big enough to change any major utility value. It's a slight difference, just enough to see with the eye (barely) and nothing more. I would opt for the HO-M3T if you wanted to have >10 minutes of runtime on the table (should be close to 13 minutes), and that runtime will stay above 10 minutes even as you age the cells through dozens of cycles. 

The only lamp option that I would offer the option of using protected RCR123s on, in a 2x16340 host, with a SF turbohead, would be the MN15, which, if I recall correctly, pulls about 1.1A, it would probably get more runtime from RCR123s, but not much. Even at this load, the IMR cells have the advantage of probably having better cycle life.

Eric

Eric


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## FredericoFreire

I understand. I'll pick the 2x IMR16340 setup with twist TC.

But I'm still not sure about the LA, HO 380 lumens x EO 450 lumens.

Maybe the highest one just to justify the use of a twisty TC to handle high current draws.

Thanks for your inputs, mdocod!


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## Mungon

well I now got 4 charges thru the l2 with fm:s reflector and 1 charge with the 22 watt axial bulb I dont know the amp on that one but the reverse clicky still works


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## mdocod

Mungon,

Thank You for the updates, I had a feeling the cheap reverse clickies would probably tolerate these loads fine for awhile...

I'll try to do some additional testing of my own when I have something setup to do so with...

Eric


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## mdocod

Not sure if this is the best place to put this, but I just did a runtime test of the new IMR16340 cells in a 6P on a Solarforce reverse clicky driving an EO-9..

Runtime was almost exactly 16 minutes before sudden major dimming. Ending open circuit voltage ~3.1V, average current ~1.9A. By my math, they delivered right around 500mAH into a ~4C load, very impressive. The last 5 minutes isn't as bright as ideal, so I would say this is a good setup for something you want to run for 10 minutes, with some reserve on tap "just in case."

Eric


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## FredericoFreire

Thanks for the info!


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## joco

Quick question:

This IMR stuff interests me a lot. One of my favorite lights is an e2e with an old Surefire e series momentary tailcap, a C bezel, and a Malkoff M30. This setup should handle the current and the heat, from the new, as yet unreleased, LF bulbs, shouldn’t it? Is the e series momentary too delicate, or is there not enough mass in the smaller e2e body??

Thanks,

John


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## mdocod

joco said:


> Quick question:
> 
> This IMR stuff interests me a lot. One of my favorite lights is an e2e with an old Surefire e series momentary tailcap, a C bezel, and a Malkoff M30. This setup should handle the current and the heat, from the new, as yet unreleased, LF bulbs, shouldn’t it? Is the e series momentary too delicate, or is there not enough mass in the smaller e2e body??
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> John



You can put 2 IMR16340 cells into an E2E body and they should fit fine. What you choose to run on the business end is going to be the biggest deciding factor.... As long as it's a simple push/twist tailcap, then it should handle the current of any option fine. The less substantial E series body will get hotter faster than a C style body, so it may not be practical for continuous runs.... but IMO, on any lamp over 10W of power, runs on small body lights longer than 5-10 minutes can really get hot pretty fast anyways, so this is just a standard issue we have to deal with. For quick bursts or short runs it really doesn't matter.....

[edit in] the only options that are going to be brighter than the M30 on a single li-ion cell, worth moving up to for the fun factor, are going to be things like the P91 and the up and coming IMR series 9V D26 lamp. 

I assume you are running either a slim 17670 or a 14670 on your M30 currently?

Eric


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## Raoul_Duke

Thought I'D post my observations.

I recived 8 IMR 123's from AW in what seemed like a nano second ( OK 4~5 days) Shipping and service A1 :twothumbs

So Loaded up a Vital gear F2 Black with two IMR 123's and a Surefire P91 and compared them against an E2D head ( old one with domed lenze) sporting a Five Mega TL3 socket ( 3rd or fourth run socket, Nice quality product) a Balrog Black 2 x 123 body and E2D tailcap. The lamp in it is a litho H1499 from the first group buy that was ages a go.

Fresh charged cells the P91 pulled 2.7A settling to 2.5A, and the H1499 pulles ~2A settling to 1.8A- 1.7A

Both nice and bright...Unsure what the tailcaps will restrict as had the tailcaps of for the current reading. ( I think the P91 should be fine @ 2.7 ~ 2.5A but I think that will be the limit. The Vital gear would have been the same switch on the three cell body so I'm assuming they must have seen the possibility of the runnign a P91 on 3 primaries when they designed them.) No noticable celing bounce change between using my meter or using a fluke to light them.


As a side note though I also had a lumens factory 3.7 to 13V warm white R2 LED module on two 'old as the hills' generic protected RCR123's and that pulled 0.66A in an old school Surefire 6P

Obviously the P91 was brightest, but that soon leveled out, and then the carley H1499 was slightly whiter that the P91, with about the same lumens output overall.

The LED was obviously blue (Tinted in comparison to the incan) But I was amaised how its hot spot throws; and more so on how It realy nearly owns the incans, and these are about the limit you are going to get 

Its not an Incan, so you dont get a real spread of even 'real' light, there is a cree 'ring' & the light is blueish....but it is Totaly good and useable for at least an hour verses the 10 or 15 minutes of the incans. :thinking:

One other observation I did make was while it was raining, realy misty and fine droplets in the air seemed to be hanging the LF LED hot spot seemed to cut throught the haze better than the E2D...which supprised me....I thought the incan would beat the LED, but I think this particular 
LF LED module is set up for throw, where as the E2D reflector I like to think of one that is for the imediate, hand reachable or close to area Light, the E2D's beam spills wider out, but what there is of the LED seemed marginaly brighter.

Out of all of them I'm most impressed with the H1499 for white colour temp and output, Its a little Hot Rod that I'm fond of as its my first decent light I cobbled together in bits here on CPF; the E2D head while small and cool looking, doesn't do the lamps justice like I think a D26 reflector may be better. 

The P91 just seems a bit of a brut...and that suits me, as initially It came out of the traps at full steam and kicking butt, But light verses runtime on a R2 to P91 versed the E2D I know which one I will have on me....

All three...( and the others I had which i didn't mention) cause I still can't make up my mind which is cooler, theay are all different.


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## Raoul_Duke

joco said:


> Quick question:
> 
> This IMR stuff interests me a lot. One of my favorite lights is an e2e with an old Surefire e series momentary tailcap, a C bezel, and a Malkoff M30. This setup should handle the current and the heat, from the new, as yet unreleased, LF bulbs, shouldn’t it? Is the e series momentary too delicate, or is there not enough mass in the smaller e2e body??
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> John



I think you will be fine...especially with a Twisty tailcap.


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## joco

Thank you, Eric and Raoul. I was hoping to be able to use the not yet available LF IMR lamp, and yes, I’m using a 17670 currently with my M30. It is a wonderful setup right now, but as you said, I’m hoping for a little “fun factor”.

John


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## Mungon

If it is a clicky, it is a definate NO for the new IMR lamps that will be released, those will have model numbers that have IMR in the front.

If you are using it for a IMR battery setup with the current line-up of lamps (that doesn't have "IMR" in the model number) then you COULD use the clickies, but we recommend you to use the twisty tailcaps.[/quote]

Well any hint on when we can get this lamps


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## brunt_sp

AW is developing softstart internals for SF clickies that can handle 75W. See post #50.

https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/210673

Perhaps we are not going to be confined to twisties for our IMR setups.


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## adirondackdestroyer

Alright, I read through a good deal of this thread and still slightly confused. The following setups sound completely awesome, but I want to make sure that I have everything right before I go out and buy anything.

SureFire 6P + 2xIMR123 cells + EO-9 or P91 bulb
Maglite 2C + 2XIMR18650 cells + ROP Hi bulb


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## mdocod

adirondackdestroyer said:


> Alright, I read through a good deal of this thread and still slightly confused. The following setups sound completely awesome, but I want to make sure that I have everything right before I go out and buy anything.
> 
> SureFire 6P + 2xIMR123 cells + EO-9 or P91 bulb
> Maglite 2C + 2XIMR18650 cells + ROP Hi bulb



The 6P option is totally drop-in and go.

The Mag 2C with 2x18650s requires some modification to the tailcap to work correctly. (spring must be removed, anodizing needs to be removed on the inside of tailcap, ideally some material milled out and a "nub" machined in to make contact with the bottom of the cell, or a very small spring installed down there... etc etc)..


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## adirondackdestroyer

mdocod said:


> The 6P option is totally drop-in and go.
> 
> The Mag 2C with 2x18650s requires some modification to the tailcap to work correctly. (spring must be removed, anodizing needs to be removed on the inside of tailcap, ideally some material milled out and a "nub" machined in to make contact with the bottom of the cell, or a very small spring installed down there... etc etc)..



Thanks for the reply.

I already have a 2C Mag ROP with a Fivemega deep tailcap. I'm just wondering if the upcoming 18650 cells will be able to fire up the ROP high bulb on the first click. 

I'm looking into this setup right here:

Surefire 6P
Five Mega D26 Bi-Pin Socket/Reflector 
FM1794 bulb
2xIMR123 cells

I've been told that it's over 600 lumens and will last around 10+ minutes. Do you think that it's over 500 lumens out the front? 
Is the bi pin socket/reflector easy to assemble and install?

Also, where is the cheapest place to buy a Surefire 6P?


----------



## Outdoors Fanatic

mdocod said:


> The 6P option is totally drop-in and go.
> 
> The Mag 2C with 2x18650s requires some modification to the tailcap to work correctly. (spring must be removed, anodizing needs to be removed on the inside of tailcap, ideally some material milled out and a "nub" machined in to make contact with the bottom of the cell, or a very small spring installed down there... etc etc)..


Why not just use 2XC-Li-ion instead of 2X18650 IMR? I don't see the advantage in using the smaller cell in a big host such as the Mag 2C.


----------



## Iliger

mdocod said:


> What conclusions would I draw from all this?
> 1. Using LiMn (IMR) cells, even with currently available high current lamps, like the EO-9/EO-M3/EO-M3T/P91/MN11/MN16, will probably slightly increase the risk of a clickie switch failure.
> 2. Using LiMn (IMR) cells, with lamps that draw more power than the lamps listed above, like the new line of IMR specific lamps from LF, is going to increase the chances of causing a clickie failure even more.


What is about remote switch? All the same?


----------



## adirondackdestroyer

Outdoors Fanatic said:


> Why not just use 2XC-Li-ion instead of 2X18650 IMR? I don't see the advantage in using the smaller cell in a big host such as the Mag 2C.



Because I already have a charger that charges two 18650 cells, and there aren't any chargers that can charge two of the C Li-ion that are cheap (as far as I know).


----------



## Outdoors Fanatic

adirondackdestroyer said:


> Because I already have a charger that charges two 18650 cells, and there aren't any chargers that can charge two of the C Li-ion that are cheap (as far as I know).


You can charge the C-Cells using the same charge that you already have, by plugging two small wires connected to the +/- contacts. Pretty easy and effective. 

You can even built a C-sized cradled using plastic tubes, in case you want something "fancier" than just wires plugged.


----------



## adirondackdestroyer

Outdoors Fanatic said:


> You can charge the C-Cells using the same charge that you already have, by plugging two small wires connected to the +/- contacts. Pretty easy and effective.
> 
> You can even built a C-sized cradled using plastic tubes, in case you want something "fancier" than just wires plugged.



I remember a sales thread along time ago where a guy was selling cradles to fit into the 139 charger. Some members posted how it wasn't safe because it charged the cells too slowly or something. 

Do you have a link to show me how to install the wires to the contacts?


----------



## RichS

adirondackdestroyer said:


> I remember a sales thread along time ago where a guy was selling cradles to fit into the 139 charger. Some members posted how it wasn't safe because it charged the cells too slowly or something.
> 
> Do you have a link to show me how to install the wires to the contacts?


Yep - I am using the WF-139 to charge my AW C batteries. It takes a while to charge them because of their high capacity, but it is completely safe and many are using this charger for these batteries.

I just bought a couple of $1 C cell battery holders with wire leads from Radio Shack for $1 and soldered alligator clips to the ends. Then I dremeled a small section of plastic on the WF-139 to expose the positive terminal to hook the alligator clips onto. Here's a thread I posted asking for ideas, and it has some pics of the technique. This one turned out to be the easist for me.

https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/195524

-Rich


----------



## mdocod

The issue of "multiple-clicks" that comes up with li-ion configurations has to do with the PCB tripping off due to the low-resistance of a cold filament, which causes a high inrush current when first turned on. LiMn cells are unprotected, so there will never be any issue of "multi-clicking" required for them to light up a bulb. They will light up any bulb regardless of whether it's ideal to do so or not, so the user needs to build appropriate configurations using these cells. 

I don't think the 1794 will run a full 10 minutes on these cells, Might come close though, I would estimate closer to 8-9 minutes. 

It won't be 500 torch lumens. My conservative estimate would be 350 torch lumen, diminishing to 150 torch lumen in 8 minutes. 

I don't own his bi-pin D26, but I do have a bi-pin MN socket and it works great without any problems... I'm sure it'll be fine.

Eric





adirondackdestroyer said:


> Thanks for the reply.
> 
> I already have a 2C Mag ROP with a Fivemega deep tailcap. I'm just wondering if the upcoming 18650 cells will be able to fire up the ROP high bulb on the first click.
> 
> I'm looking into this setup right here:
> 
> Surefire 6P
> Five Mega D26 Bi-Pin Socket/Reflector
> FM1794 bulb
> 2xIMR123 cells
> 
> I've been told that it's over 600 lumens and will last around 10+ minutes. Do you think that it's over 500 lumens out the front?
> Is the bi pin socket/reflector easy to assemble and install?
> 
> Also, where is the cheapest place to buy a Surefire 6P?


----------



## adirondackdestroyer

mdocod said:


> I don't think the 1794 will run a full 10 minutes on these cells, Might come close though, I would estimate closer to 8-9 minutes.
> 
> It won't be 500 torch lumens. My conservative estimate would be 350 torch lumen, diminishing to 150 torch lumen in 8 minutes.
> 
> I don't own his bi-pin D26, but I do have a bi-pin MN socket and it works great without any problems... I'm sure it'll be fine.
> 
> Eric



Well that's pretty disappointing. Another CPFer told me it was 630 lumens. That's quite a bit more than 350 I was expecting it to be at least 500 out the front. An 8 minute runtime isn't all that impressive if it only puts out 350 lumens. The Eagletac T10C2 is 280 lumens and runs for over 1 hour of regulation. 
I was hoping for something SUPER bright in a small package (size of 6P). Is there anything that is near 500 lumens in that size? Anything much less than that isn't worth it, since LED's can be nearly as bright and run 5 times as long or more.


----------



## mdocod

Keep in mind, that the difference between 350 and 500 lumens isn't as big a deal as it looks like on paper.

The 8 minutes runtime is also conservative, on brand new cells, it may stretch out to 10 minutes, but I think it would be healthier for the cells to try to terminate the discharge in the 5-8 minute range anyways. 

Also keep in mind that incan lumens are different than LED lumens as far as usefulness in many applications, and I always like to lean towards the conservative end on estimates on paper. I will admit, flat out, that my estimates could be wrong, it depends on what estimated variables I decide to use to come to my conclusions. I like to estimate more towards realistic possibilities so as not to get hopes up too high... I don't have measuring equipment, so I rely on best guess arithmetic based on the best information we have for re-rating formulas. 

If I assume less resistance in the configuration (basically none), and a perfect performance from the cells, charged to a full 4.20V resting, (most chargers will terminate these cells lower than that), then I might say that this configuration would start at 480 torch lumen, and diminish to 250 lumen in 9 minutes and 36 seconds. Achieving these numbers in a true integrating sphere would probably be difficult, as it would require that every contact was in really good shape. Keep in mind that it's a bi-pin socket, so there is a non-permanent connection to the pins of the bulb, there are also 3 springs in a SF configuration, each adds some resistance and 2 additional "contacts" per spring, then there is the switch that is chosen, ideally, it would be a Z41 to reduce resistance as much as possible. 480 torch lumens is theoretically possible to achieve on paper in this configuration, I just don't feel comfortable saying for sure that it would happen in reality. Results may vary, there is hope on the table that greater than 350 torch lumens is achievable in this configuration, if it makes you feel better  

------------------------------------------

EagleTac, from everything I understand, is quoting emitter lumens, not torch lumens, I'm pretty sure the EagleTac is closer to ~225 torch lumens. (correct me if I'm wrong on this)....

Remember, with LEDs, the conversion factor from emitter to torch lumens is somewhere around 0.8, for incan, it's closer to 0.65. Incans are undoubtedly fighting an uphill battle in these smaller size configurations. Using LiMn to build compact screamers has specialized applications, and the practicality of multi-hour runtime available in LEDs in this size is undeniable. 

IMO, the really good incan builds, that can still seriously spank LEDs, starts at ~2x18650 size. Runtimes on LiCo cells driving bulbs up to ~3.5A are reasonable, and output is comparable or beating the P7, and with a turbobezel, will handily out-throw the LEDs... Move up to a pair of LiMn cells in this size, and bulbs like the 64275 and MN21 can be driven, nearly double the output of most P7 LED lights out there with these setups.


----------



## Outdoors Fanatic

mdocod said:


> Keep in mind, that the difference between 350 and 500 lumens isn't as big a deal as it looks like on paper.
> 
> The 8 minutes runtime is also conservative, on brand new cells, it may stretch out to 10 minutes, but I think it would be healthier for the cells to try to terminate the discharge in the 5-8 minute range anyways.
> 
> Also keep in mind that incan lumens are different than LED lumens as far as usefulness in many applications, and I always like to lean towards the conservative end on estimates on paper. I will admit, flat out, that my estimates could be wrong, it depends on what estimated variables I decide to use to come to my conclusions. I like to estimate more towards realistic possibilities so as not to get hopes up too high... I don't have measuring equipment, so I rely on best guess arithmetic based on the best information we have for re-rating formulas.
> 
> If I assume less resistance in the configuration (basically none), and a perfect performance from the cells, charged to a full 4.20V resting, (most chargers will terminate these cells lower than that), then I might say that this configuration would start at 480 torch lumen, and diminish to 250 lumen in 9 minutes and 36 seconds. Achieving these numbers in a true integrating sphere would probably be difficult, as it would require that every contact was in really good shape. Keep in mind that it's a bi-pin socket, so there is a non-permanent connection to the pins of the bulb, there are also 3 springs in a SF configuration, each adds some resistance and 2 additional "contacts" per spring, then there is the switch that is chosen, ideally, it would be a Z41 to reduce resistance as much as possible. 480 torch lumens is theoretically possible to achieve on paper in this configuration, I just don't feel comfortable saying for sure that it would happen in reality. Results may vary, there is hope on the table that greater than 350 torch lumens is achievable in this configuration, if it makes you feel better
> 
> ------------------------------------------
> 
> EagleTac, from everything I understand, is quoting emitter lumens, not torch lumens, I'm pretty sure the EagleTac is closer to ~225 torch lumens. (correct me if I'm wrong on this)....
> 
> Remember, with LEDs, the conversion factor from emitter to torch lumens is somewhere around 0.8, for incan, it's closer to 0.65. Incans are undoubtedly fighting an uphill battle in these smaller size configurations. Using LiMn to build compact screamers has specialized applications, and the practicality of multi-hour runtime available in LEDs in this size is undeniable.
> 
> IMO, the really good incan builds, that can still seriously spank LEDs, starts at ~2x18650 size. Runtimes on LiCo cells driving bulbs up to ~3.5A are reasonable, and output is comparable or beating the P7, and with a turbobezel, will handily out-throw the LEDs... Move up to a pair of LiMn cells in this size, and bulbs like the 64275 and MN21 can be driven, nearly double the output of most P7 LED lights out there with these setups.





> EagleTac, from everything I understand, is quoting emitter lumens, not torch lumens, I'm pretty sure the EagleTac is closer to ~225 torch lumens. (correct me if I'm wrong on this)....



Nope. The EagleTac T10C2 delivered a solid 280 lumens in a real Integrating Sphere test. I got one, it easily beats any Fenix, Olight, Lumapower, Jeatbeam or Malkoff available in the market. It is by far, the brightest single Cree XR-E light out there. 

*Check it out*:
https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/211402


----------



## Bullzeyebill

mdocod, MrGman has tested the T10C2 at 280 lumens in an IS, but that is not the point of my post here. Like you say, there is a difference in the characteristics of an incan beam compared to and LED beam. If an LED and incan light are both measured at the same Lumens, and at the same lux, the the incan beam will appear to be brighter. At least I find that true for me, and more so since I moved into a town enviornment with streets with street lamps. In other words, a lot of ambient light at night in town. 90% of my lights are LED lights, some extremely bright, some reading 40,000 plus lux, but it is the Incan lights that are easier on my eyes and I can see better using them. Some day, maybe, LED lights will project a broader spectrum of light, which all LED lovers want anyway, I think.

Bill

I see that Outdoors Fanatic beat me to the draw on MrGman's IS results.

Bill


----------



## Outdoors Fanatic

Bullzeyebill said:


> mdocod, MrGman has tested the T10C2 at 280 lumens in an IS, but that is not the point of my post here. Like you say, there is a difference in the characteristics of an incan beam compared to and LED beam. If an LED and incan light are both measured at the same Lumens, and at the same lux, the the incan beam will appear to be brighter. At least I find that true for me, and more so since I moved into a town enviornment with streets with street lamps. In other words, a lot of ambient light at night in town. 90% of my lights are LED lights, some extremely bright, some reading 40,000 plus lux, but it is the Incan lights that are easier on my eyes and I can see better using them. Some day, maybe, LED lights will project a broader spectrum of light, which all LED lovers want anyway, I think.
> 
> Bill
> 
> I see that Outdoors Fanatic beat me to the draw on MrGman's IS results.
> 
> Bill


I find that the light generated by incandescent flashlights are MUCH more useful than LEDs outdoors, even when they are vastly less powerful. Use a common G2 with a P60 against any 200 lumens LED and feel the difference immediately... The full spectrum of incans are simply superior, the impression it gives you is that every single lumen is going to the right places, where it needs to go. No lumen is wasted.

Yeah, runtime sometimes is not that great, but I use a headlamp for night navigation and an incan for spotting, which gets no more than 5 to 10 minutes of continuous use during the whole hike, if that.


----------



## mdocod

I was basing my assumption of the EagleTac using emitter lumens on the fact that when he tested one of the other EagleTac models, it fell short of advertised output by about 20%, which translates pretty directly in my thinking to "emitter lumen claims." I did not see his test of the T10C2.

Eric


----------



## RichS

Outdoors Fanatic said:


> I find that the light generated by incandescent flashlights are MUCH more useful than LEDs outdoors, even when they are vastly less powerful. Use a common G2 with a P60 against any 200 lumens LED and feel the difference immediately... The full spectrum of incans are simply superior, the impression it gives you is that every single lumen is going to the right places, where it needs to go. No lumen is wasted.
> 
> Yeah, runtime sometimes is not that great, but I use a headlamp for night navigation and an incan for spotting, which gets no more than 5 to 10 minutes of continuous use during the whole hike, if that.


 
I've become much more of an incan guy because of that very fact. The best quality of illumination has always come from incans to my eye. I have many more incan lights than LEDs now. However, with the recent release of some very nice warm tint LEDs, my mind might be starting to change regarding the true quality of light LEDs are capable of putting out. I took a few pics with my warm LEDs, a standard Q5 LED, and a stock G2. These new warm tint LEDs are getting to be pretty impressive...here are a few beamshots I took...

https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/213984


----------



## ampdude

Thanks for the link Rich. How is the 3-D view outside with the 5A compared to an incan bulb? I can't help but feel that the warmer tint Q2 are just R2's with a lot more phosphor coating. And that they still not providing near the spectrum depth of an incan. I think what we really need is a whole new LED design because I can't see how phosphor coated blue LED's will ever be able to compete, no matter how many lumens per watt they put out.


----------



## mudman cj

While the Seoul high CRI emitter isn't as bright as the 5A, it does put out a quality of light that rivals incandescent IMO. The light from a 5A is sort of a compromise between output and spectrum IMO, while I think of the Seoul as going for maximum spectrum at the sacrifice of output. For a small light with long runtime I think this LED reaches a level not obtainable with incandescent without sacrificing function. Indeed, it could be argued that the LED light is more reliable. 

With my modded KL1 head I am getting about 55 lumens out the front by my estimate with primaries for 2 hours, or a bit less light (560mA LED current vs. 750mA) on Li-ion 17670 also for 2 hours, or 2xRCR123 for a bit less time but back up to 750mA. The flexibility is great and the E2E form factor is also a plus. 

The output of the KL1 mod is greater than the MN02 but the runtime is not quite as long (about 2.5 vs 2 hours). Runtime of the KL1 mod is 50 mins longer than the MN03 with an inconspicuous difference in output. 

Granted, some will prefer the beam of an incandescent for some situations, and I don't claim my light will win any throw or white wall contests, but walking at night it has proven itself to be great for illuminating the path ahead and beyond with a generous hotspot thanks to the TIR optic. 

I'm sorry to post an off topic comment here about what is clearly not an IMR setup, but I think phosphor coated blue LEDs will and are already beginning to compete with incandescent lights without sacrifices that I completely understand you not wanting to go without. There are still plenty of instances where incandescent is king, and I am not giving mine up either, but LEDs are gaining ground. New phosphor technologies continue to be developed that will improve the spectrum of the LED as well as the output.


----------



## RichS

mdocod said:


> It won't be 500 torch lumens. My conservative estimate would be 350 torch lumen, diminishing to 150 torch lumen in 8 minutes.
> 
> Eric


I actually think I'm going to have to disagree with you on this one Eric (makes me nervous just to say that..). _Unless_ Wolf-Eyes is extremely over-stating the lumen rating on their P7 Sniper. I did a ceiling bounce test between my P7 Sniper w/ fully charged AW 18650 and my 1794 w/ 2xIMR16340s. The 1794 was _significantly _brighter in my opinion - I'd say at least 30% more total output. They claim the P7 Sniper puts out 580 lumens. If it is even 400 lumens in reality, the 1794 in this config is 600+ for sure. I know the tint of the incan helps somewhat, but it doesn't make that much of a difference...

See what you think. Manual exposure was used with ISO 200, 1/2 second exposure, white balance set to daylight on each shot.

*C2 IMR16340 - 1794 (Left) */ *Sniper P7 (Right)*


----------



## mdocod

Hi RichS,

I was looking at your beamshots in that thread, and was also beginning to disagree with myself 

Like I said in that post above, given ideal conditions, it seems possible that 480 torch lumens could happen... But even that doesn't seem like a big enough number to justify the very significant difference in illumination between those 2 lights you compared there...

I know this may sound like an odd request... but would you be willing to take the same 2 shots again, but with the camera set to white balance itself automatically?

Also.... Is the bedspread red/brown/beige? walls beige? I don't mean to be critical of the comparison, but the difference in those 2 shots to me looks like easily double, which means there almost has to be some various factors at work that are giving the advantage to the incan in this specific comparison... I think the coloring of the objects in the room may have a lot to do with it, using auto-white balancing on the camera might help offset this effect slightly, correcting for it, so to speak. At the same time, doing the same comparison in a room with a more even balance of object colors may have a further corrective effect on the comparison 

Eric


----------



## bagman

I was working a (very unpleasant 20-04) late shift last night and decided to try out my new IMR 123A's for the first time in anger.

I popped the batteries and a LF EO-9 into a Z2 body and off I went.

For the size of the torch this is the most incredible amount of light, I always have at least 2 lights on me on duty so I was not bothered about the run time (and I had a spare set of cells anyway)

It was used in very short bursts sweeping dark areas for miscreants while out on foot patrol and it ROCKS


----------



## RichS

mdocod said:


> Hi RichS,
> 
> I was looking at your beamshots in that thread, and was also beginning to disagree with myself
> 
> Like I said in that post above, given ideal conditions, it seems possible that 480 torch lumens could happen... But even that doesn't seem like a big enough number to justify the very significant difference in illumination between those 2 lights you compared there...
> 
> I know this may sound like an odd request... but would you be willing to take the same 2 shots again, but with the camera set to white balance itself automatically?
> 
> Also.... Is the bedspread red/brown/beige? walls beige? I don't mean to be critical of the comparison, but the difference in those 2 shots to me looks like easily double, which means there almost has to be some various factors at work that are giving the advantage to the incan in this specific comparison... I think the coloring of the objects in the room may have a lot to do with it, using auto-white balancing on the camera might help offset this effect slightly, correcting for it, so to speak. At the same time, doing the same comparison in a room with a more even balance of object colors may have a further corrective effect on the comparison
> 
> Eric



Ok Eric, so it looks like you may have something here....

The bedspread is purplish/maroon with golds and tan, and the walls are an antique ivory. So I retook the beamshots using manual settings except for the white balance - I left that at Auto. The other settings were the same, with 1/4 second exposure and 200 ISO. The IMR 16340s were charged to 4.05v, and the AW 18650 in the P7 Sniper was charged to 4.11v.

This color correction absolutely made a difference in the apparent light output. The FM 1794 now appears to be only very slightly brighter than the P7 Sniper, I'd say by about 10-15%. So now the question is - which white balance setting provides the most accurate representation of true total lumens - auto or manual?? I've just always read here on CPF that to do a true comparison, all settings must be equal and set manually. In this case, it made all the difference. Which setting tells the true story??? In my own testing just using my own eyes, the FM1794 appears brighter than the P7 Sniper by a bigger margin than in these pics. But by no means does it appear brighter by the margin in the first set of pics. I guess it's just difficult to do this type of comparison between two lights with such distinctly different types of light.









Just as an added comparison, here is the *DBS 3SD Q5 *on high (same auto white balance):





-Rich


----------



## mdocod

It's always a good feeling to have a hunch, and then be right 

Yes, you will hear a ton of people tell you that you have to have the white balance set the same to compare different lights. It's a pile of crap, and you just proved it. Using the same white balance to compare light source of completely different white points will just skew the crap out of the results... If you had used the "incan" setting on the camera for white point, the incan would have looked perfectly white, while the LED would have made the whole room look like a blueberry. Eyes adjust to white point on the fly, there is no reason that the camera shouldn't be set to behave more like eyeballs. With that said, obviously, to make useful comparisons of total output using a camera, we must use fixed exposure, which works pretty good for pointing out differences between lights within the same "ballpark" of output... but as you can see from your DBS pic above, since that light is sort of "out of it's class" clocking in at less than half the total output than the other 2 lights compared, the room looks remarkably dark. The eyes would adjust for this, and it would look like the room is a "notch" dimmer than say, the P7, but not as much dimmer as the picture shows... I guess what I am getting at is, there is no way to use a camera to make accurate comparisons as to the way our eyes will see it for lumen comparisons, but that's no big deal, it's a tool we can use to try to share the differences between various lights, and if used properly, we can do a pretty darned good job of conveying some great information. 

having said that... for comparisons within the same type of light, like say for example, a bunch of incans. Setting the camera to a fixed "incandescent" white point, can be very useful as it will help reveal minor differences in the "whiteness" of the various incans, (how hard the bulb is driven etc), and again with LEDs, setting the camera fixed for a big comparison between LEDs can be handy as it will allow the comparison to show those minor tint differences between brands, find out who really is getting the cream of the crop emitters. 

Looking at those 2 pictures, I am having a really hard time seeing much difference in total output. Like you say it's pretty minimal, maybe 10-15% if much at all... I'm going to go on the hunch again, that even with the white balance set to auto, a room painted "antique ivory" is still going to favor the incan. (not that I have a problem with favoring incans, provided it's not by *too* much, lol) 

Eric -The Debunker!


----------



## DM51

This is extremely interesting. I have no doubt you are on to something there about the white balance settings, and I expect this will start quite a discussion - let's hope it's a productive one, with constructive rather than negative input.

Doesn't this all rather depend on how the camera's sensor/processor treats different types of light with different white balance settings? I have no idea how this is done, except to suppose it is by means of some kind of virtual filtering. I doubt all cameras do it the same, so there could be wide discrepancies. If it _IS_ some form of virtual filter, then how are we to know the camera is not simply suppressing the yellow component of the incan light when set to auto, instead of converting it into a whiter shade? That would account for the dimmer appearance of the incan light when the camera is set to auto. 

Could we maybe hear from a digital photo technical expert who could give us some insight into this?


----------



## jumpstat

Digital photography has been my passion since 2002. My gear has always been with Nikon. With white balance setting, for me an auto setting does not represent the true rendering of a particular subject. A balanced 'white balance' setting is crucial in order to get the perfect shot which represent the actual shot being taken at that time. I do not know the technical/engineering aspects of this but IMO getting the balanced setting will produce the output that can match the shot taken at different ambient light, night or day, with or without speedlight assist. I have even tried to use 2 Nikon D2H with the same white balance setting but both produce different outputs even within a controlled environment. 
Having looked at RichS photos above, from the point of view of a photographer it is obvious that auto white balance does not give true representation of the shot being taken and therefore I do avoid using auto. 
Furthermore there is no speedlight being used to reflect the colours from any object from the pics except from the light source, thus I for one would believe that the first set of shots is the correct one......my 0.02 cents


----------



## Icebreak

New to photography. What I've been discovering is custom white balance. Focus on a white board and set the custom balance. Maybe as some have suggested using sunlight. I haven't tried it yet but I'm interested in what would happen if it were custom set with the use of both of the flashlights shined at the white board. The flashlights are similar in lux but dissimilar in temp and CRI. Maybe the custom white balance would then find a happy medium that would show a fair estimate of the difference in lux in comparative beamshots of two very different sources.

However it's done, I would think that the exact same settings for both beamshots would be more scientific.

Interesting.


----------



## mdocod

The bedroom walls/bed/carpet/drapes are blue, the hallway walls/floor are buttery yellow/wood. Here's every possible thing my camera can do as far as white point settings. Exposure is fixed at 1/4 on the hallway and 1/2 on the bedroom shots. My camera does not seem to give any significant advantage in the total illumination when using different white points, but I doubt every camera is going to have the same behavior. This series of shots, most importantly, shows that comparing an incan and an LED with a fixed white point setting literally just causes a massive coloring of whichever light source is mismatched the most to the white point setting on the camera.






The R2 module in this comparison was from LF, and is easily the lowest CCT LED I own. I'd suspect it falls on the low end of the "5-10K" grouping. It's one of my favorites, but I thought it important to point out, that this comparison does not even begin to show how extreme the coloration effects can get when comparing light sources that are drastically different with fixed white point settings on the camera.


----------



## Icebreak

The bottom two rows could be a Warhol. Cool.


----------



## geek4christ

Very cool shots, MD. 

This is an interesting disccusion. I'd like to point out one other thing I've seen here...

UnknownVT took some shots in one of his reviews, and ended up turning the saturation down completely to compare light outputs. Doing this made it easier to tell the difference in output without complex coloring issues skewing the results.

See post #5 in this thread.

Your thoughts?


----------



## M.S

Now that the IMR18650 cells are available, what kind of setups you are planning? 
I have a standard M3 head with MN11, 2x18650 leefbody and clicky tailcap with AW softstarter. All I need is a bigger bulb I think. I can't find the lumensfactory IMR-bulbs for sale anywhere yet. I don't know if Fivemega is going to make a bipin adapter for the M3 standard head (it has been mentioned). Anything out there that I'm missing?

Other thing I'm going to try is strion bulb or EO-4 in 3P with IMR16340.


----------



## mdocod

here's some ideas:

---

Cell Configuration: 1xIMR16340

Bulb Options:
LF D26 HO-4: 7W, 106 - 69 lumen in 49 minutes
G&P D26 3.7V: 8W, 118 - 72 lumen in 40 minutes 
WE D26 3.7V: 8W, 114 - 69 lumen in 42 minutes
LF D26 EO-4: 9W, 122 - 70 lumen in 37 minutes
G&P D26 3.7V "DX 10W xenon": 7W, 118 - 72 lumen in 40 minut

Body options:
SureFire 3P
FiveMega 1x16340 body w/C tail and head, +SF compatible tail-cap/bezel. +++
Ultra/Super/Trust/Solar/Force/Fire 3P clones. (model number varies, good luck)

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Cell configuration: 1xIMR18650

Bulb Options:
LF D26 HO-4: 7W, 107 - 71 lumen in 68 minutes
G&P D26 3.7V: 8W, 121 - 80 lumen in 55 minutes 
WE D26 3.7V: 8W, 116 - 77 lumen in 58 minutes
LF D26 EO-4: 9W, 129 - 85 lumen in 52 minutes
G&P D26 3.7V "DX 10W xenon": 7W, 121 - 80 lumen in 55 minutes

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Cell configuration: 2xIMR16340

(these are rougher estimates than most of the others in the chart, but should be close enough to accurate for comparisons sake)

Bulb Options:
LF D26 ES-9: 7W, 110 - 70 lumen in 37 minutes
LF D26 SR-9: 9W, 150 - 85 lumen in 25 minutes
LF D26 HO-9: 12W, 195 - 100 lumen in 19 minutes
LF D26 EO-9: 15W, 240 - 110 lumen in 15 minutes
SF P90: 9W, 145 - 80 lumen in 25 minutes
SF P91: 20W, 300 - 125 lumen in 10 minutes
G&P G90: 9W, 145 - 80 lumen in 25 minutes
G&P D26 7.4V "DX 10W xenon": 9W, 145 - 80 lumen in 25 minutes
G&P D26 7.4V "DX 15W xenon": 10.5W, 165 - 90 lumen in 22 minutes
Pathfinder P90: 10W, 155 - 90 lumen in 23 minutes
WE D26 9V: 10W, 165 - 90 lumen in 22 minutes
Pila GL3 LA: 10W, 165 - 90 lumen in 22 minutes
FM1794 in FM bi-pin D26: 22+W, 350 - 150 lumen in 8 minutes

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Cell Configuration: 2xIMR16340

Bulb Options:
SF MN15: 10W
SF MN16
SF N2: 10W
SF MN20: 20W
LF HO-M3T: 16W
LF EO-M3T: 18.5W
LF IMR-M3T:
GE787 w/FM bi-pin>MN socket:
Osram 64250 w/FM bi-pin>MN socket:
WA1111 w/FM bi-pin>MN socket:

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Cell configuration: 2xIMR18650 (LiMn chemistry cells)

Bulb Options:
SF MN15: 10W
SF N2: 10W
SF MN20: 20W
SF MN21: 37W
LF HO-M3T: 16W
LF EO-M3T: 18.5W
LF IMR-M3T:
GE787 w/FM bi-pin>MN socket:
Osram 64275 w/FM bi-pin>MN socket:

(MN16, WA1111, and Osram 64250 are not compatible as they will just instaflash). 

Body Options:
FiveMega or Leefbody 2x18650 w/C tail and head, +SF compatible tail-cap, +KT1/2 ++
Leefbody 2x18650 w/C tail and M head, + SF compatible tail-cap, +KT4 ++
SureFire M6 w/2x18650 adapter

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Cell Configuration: 3xIMR16340

Bulb Options:
SF MN60: 20W
SF MN61: 32W
LF HO-M6R: 23W
LF IMR-M6:
WA1331 w/FM bi-pin>MN socket:
WA1185 w/FM bi-pin>MN socket:

Body Options:
SF M3T +++
SF M3 +KT4 ++
SF 6P, C2, D2, Z2, M2, (G2?), +1 cell extender, +SF turbohead (KT1, KT2) ++(some extenders fit 17mm cells, some don't)
SF 9P, C3, (G3?), +SF turbohead (KT1, KT2) ++
G&P T9 +SF turbohead (KT1, KT2) +
G&P T6 +1 cell extender, +SF turbohead (KT1, KT2) +
Cabelas XPG 6V 2 cell +1 cell extender, +SF turbohead (KT1, KT2) +
FiveMega or Leefbody 2x18500 w/C tail and head, +SF compatible tail-cap, +KT1/2 ++
Leefbody 2x18500 w/C tail and M head, + SF compatible tail-cap, +KT4 ++

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Cell configuration: 2xIMR16340

Bulb Option:
SF MN10: 9.5W
SF MN11: 20W
LF HO-M3: 12W
LF EO-M3: 15.5W

Body Option:
SF 6P, C2, D2, Z2, M2, (G2?), + leef C to M adapter, + M3 bezel
FiveMega or Leefbody 1x18650 adapted to M head (leef adapter) with M3 bezel and SF compatible tailcap +++
Any SF "C" thread compatible host, with C to M head adapter and M3 bezel

--------------------

Just a few ideas to ponder 

Another option might be that FiveMega 22W axial filament in his D26 bi-pin adapter on 3xIMR16340 cells in a 9P style host.


----------



## Nite

What about 2xIMR 18650 driving an fm1794?


Where are you guys buying your IMR 18650 from? 



So I need to buy the switch that comes with a 6P or 9P?


----------



## brunt_sp

Nite said:


> Where are you guys buying your IMR 18650 from?


 Here you go :
http://www.cpfmarketplace.com/mp/showthread.php?t=184887&page=7


----------



## Nite

brunt_sp said:


> Here you go :
> http://www.cpfmarketplace.com/mp/showthread.php?t=184887&page=7



thanks


----------



## lebox97

might want to re-look at Erics post?

"FM1794 in FM bi-pin D26: 22+W, 350 - 150 lumen in 8 minutes"

 that is for 16340



Nite said:


> What about 2xIMR 18650 driving an fm1794?
> 
> ...


----------



## DM51

lebox97 said:


> might want to re-look at Erics post?
> 
> "FM1794 in FM bi-pin D26: 22+W, 350 - 150 lumen in 8 minutes"


No, those figures are for 2x IMR16340, and Nite is asking about 2x IMR18650.

I'll leave Eric to give the exact figures, but you would probably get ~23 mins with a FM1794 on 2x IMR18650. However this would be working the bulb pretty hard, and there might be a risk of flashing.


----------



## mdocod

it's been tried (2x18650 LiMn>1794) and it flashed, multiples IIRC. Not going to list it as a possible configuration. LiCo on the larger cells only. IMR16340s are also fine.


----------



## DM51

Would it still flash with AW's soft-start?


----------



## M.S

I flashed 2 or 3 Fm1794:s with normal AW 18650:s when I got my first FM 2x18650 tube... But I'm interested in the soft start option too, my switch is in the mail...


----------



## ampdude

Crap! I have three MN16's I was planning on running with IMR's. Any reason why they would flash, but a P91 would not?

MN16's seem to run fine on the lithium cobalt cells.


----------



## DM51

The higher current capability of the IMRs has a downside of less voltage sag, which will flash bulbs if they are on their limit. mdocod's post confirms that is the case with the FM1794, which is OK on IMR16340s but not with IMR18650s. Of course, less voltage sag is not a downside but a definite upside if the bulb can handle the higher voltage, as it means a brighter light.


----------



## ampdude

Ya, but a P91 is on the edge, I'm still wondering why the MN16 would flash, but the P91 would not.

Anybody have the specs of both bulbs? I've read the P91 is a 6.8V bulb.


----------



## Bullzeyebill

ampdude said:


> Ya, but a P91 is on the edge, I'm still wondering why the MN16 would flash, but the P91 would not.
> 
> Anybody have the specs of both bulbs? I've read the P91 is a 6.8V bulb.



There are those that say the P91 and MN16 are the same bulb, but I am not so sure. Maybe potting is different. I can't find my MN16, but it is frosted too, while the P91 is not frosted. I think that the MN LA's are more robust than the P LA's.

Bill


----------



## Nite

ahh wheres this soft start switch and how much is it?

SO less runtime, and itll burn out my switch.

its safer, thats it?

or for use with much higher wattage and voltage bulbs, but at much lower runtimes, i guess.

I was excited for the 18650s but the 16340s have made an immediate smaller but brighter light.

one IMR in a 3P with an SF led.....or an EO 4

and two in a 6P with FM1794

At Least I have the bodies you need for these new cells.

I have spent so much money ....i have so many lights.


----------



## DM51

Bullzeyebill said:


> There are those that say the P91 and MN16 are the same bulb, but I am not so sure. Maybe potting is different. I can't find my MN16, but it is frosted too, while the P91 is not frosted. I think that the MN LA's are more robust than the P LA's.


I believe they are pretty much the same actual bulb, although obviously the assemblies are different so there may be different resistances which could account for slight variations in performance.


----------



## mdocod

ampdude said:


> Ya, but a P91 is on the edge, I'm still wondering why the MN16 would flash, but the P91 would not.
> 
> Anybody have the specs of both bulbs? I've read the P91 is a 6.8V bulb.



I'm trying to remember if I have already commented on this or not.... But it would be recommendation to avoid the MN16, MN11, P91, and 1794 on 2xIMR18650 configurations as they are all going to be pushed really hard like that. 

Tell ya what... I have a P91 here that doesn't work quite right.... It runs fine for like 10 seconds, and then when it heats up, a connection somewhere is broken within the assembly somewhere and I don't care to bother trying to fix it. In that first 10 seconds it behaves pretty normally... I'll load it up with a pair of my Emoli cells and see what happens...

Report coming soon...

----------------------

Rested cells at 4.11V per cell, no instaflash, noticeably brighter and whiter than any other batteries I've driven it with. Keeping in mind that this bulb may have a point of higher resistance somewhere in the electrical path that other P91s don't...

Now the question is... do I try the same test with fresh-from-the-charger cells? hmm....


----------



## ampdude

mdocod, I originally read your post incorrectly (#94) saying that the MN16 would flash, but the P91 was okay.

I now see the MN16 incompatibility was listed under the IMR18650 heading and the P91 is not listed at all under that.

I was planning on running MN16's and P91's on 17500 and 18500 IMR cells if they become available.


----------



## Bullzeyebill

I think that AW's new soft start tailcap setup for the Surefire C,M,P series will allow us to run our P91, MN16's, and MN61's with fully charged hi cap 18650's regular, or the IMR 18650's, without danger of instaflash. Not sure though, but I will experiment when my AW tailcap mod shows up.

Bill


----------



## RyanA

mdocod said:


> Depends on what your goals are:
> 
> One option is the HO-M6R, 700 bulb lumens, 13 minutes estimated runtime.
> The other option is the IMR-M6, (not yet released as far as I know), which will be 1000 bulb lumen, I'm guessing closer to 8 minutes runtime on that (but don't have exact bulb information to work with on that).
> 
> The other alternative is an FM bi-pin adapter and a WA1185, which would probably be something like 1200 bulb lumen, with a runtime of maybe 7 minutes.
> 
> Eric



I'm planning on trying this. Know anyone else who's tried it? Looks like it's within the cells specs.

These new li-mn cells are bringing me back to the dark side. the p7 and mc-e turned out to be a bit disappointing.

I can't wait to get 1000+ lumens out of my g3.:devil: 
I hope it works...
so awesome.


----------



## LIGHTSMAD

i have a 9P with a FM1794 bulb and 2x18500 body.
i must say this small light rocks!
its one of my favorite lights!
is there a brighter setup i can choose? by looking at some of the setups here i think the 2x16340 body and 22W axil bulb is the way to go, but im not to sure!


----------



## DM51

The 22W axial bulb needs 3x Li-Ion cells, not 2. 3x IMR16340 would fit in your 9P. It's a very interesting bulb. It gives a very good flood beam, not a spot beam at all. I wouldn't say it is noticeably brighter than the FM1794, but it is difficult to tell as the beam characteristics are so different.


----------



## LIGHTSMAD

its more spot im intrested in! if there is not much of a difference in output i think i'll just stick with my 18500 setup which i am super pleased with!

i might check tonight but how long before 50% left on the light?


----------



## DM51

I think mdocod covers that in his great incan compatibility thread - you could look it up.

If you don't have a DMM, you should get one for checking the condition of your Li-Ion cells. It will give you an accurate indication of their state of charge.


----------



## cchurchi

I purchased 3 X IMR18650 to run a Wolf-eyes M300. I will report if it instaflashes the bulb. If so, I'll use them 1 at a time with my WE D26 incan instead.


----------



## mdocod

Hi cchurchi,

I know you have already read this but I'm going to link it here for others to see as well....

Wolf-Eyes Chargers with LiMn cells?


----------



## cchurchi

Yes, and the information contained in the great incan compatibility thread was very useful, thanks!


----------



## Nite

RyanA said:


> I'm planning on trying this. Know anyone else who's tried it? Looks like it's within the cells specs.
> 
> These new li-mn cells are bringing me back to the dark side. the p7 and mc-e turned out to be a bit disappointing.
> 
> I can't wait to get 1000+ lumens out of my g3.:devil:
> I hope it works...
> so awesome.



You are so going to melt your light


----------



## Bullzeyebill

Nite said:


> You are so going to melt your light



Yeah, and quick too. :devil:


----------



## RyanA

LOL, assuming I can get that much runtime.:naughty:

I dunno, I am a bit concerned about the lens, I think it's polycarb. But then again I've actually had the light on with the p91 in it in my pocket a few times. My pants actually started to burn a bit, smelled terrible. The light was fire* though.

Well, all the parts are on the way. I'll let you guys know how it turns out. If it melts, I'll chalk it up to the cost of doing business. At least my favorite beater light will go out in a blaze of glory.:rock:

*lol, fine. Freudian slip


----------



## mdocod

I don't think you'll have too much trouble, just run it in short bursts. SF says the P91 is fine in a G3. The P91 on CR123s is ~17W, so adding another ~30% shouldn't automatically mean the end of the world for the light.

Eric


----------



## ampdude

Well, I got my IMR batteries today. It's impressive to see that kind of light coming out of a two cell. I have an unfrosted EO-9 in my Surefire C2. It's like holding a car headlight in your hands. Truly incredible! Btw, the G3 lens since it was introduced last year is pyrex, so I wouldn't worry about it.

I strongly suspect my recently purchased G2 is also pyrex so Surefire might have changed something there as well.


----------



## RyanA

I also suspect the light will be fine. It will probably will only see very short periods of use (no more than 30 seconds), if it turns out well the g3 may go back into service as my primary drunk "illuminator" light. It's good to know the lens is glass though. I'm guessing the housing material has some pretty good heat resistance as well. I can't wait till the cells get over here and into my charger.


----------



## Nite

How do you plan on getting 1000 Lumens out of a G3 again? I have one too...

I like using my FM1794 22watt bi pin setup in a 6P (1x18650)..for 8 minutes its sunlight in your hand.

its amazing...and just weeks after getting these Custom reflectors I can use it in such a small size..not a 2x18650, but a 1x. With 2xIMR16340


----------



## RyanA

3x IMR 16340 and a wa1185 in a bi-pin socket. I might throw in a McGizmo 2 stage switch if I like the performance. I guess the 60ohm. Give me about a week or so for the parts to arrive. I'll be sure to let you know how it turns out.


----------



## ampdude

Sounds interesting, what type of bi-pin socket are you going to use? Does the WA1185 work with the KT2-HA turbohead?

This might be a promising setup for my Surefire C3.


----------



## AW

My 1000 + lumens setup :

(L) Philips 5761 / 2 x IMR18650 / softstart switch , (M) WA1185 / 3 x IMR16340 / softstart switch, (R) LF - EOM3T / 2 x IMR16340 / softstart switch ( 700 lumen )


----------



## [email protected]

Hi Guys,

We will be delaying the release of the IMR Series by a couple of days.
Don't worry it will only be delayed a week at max, so it'll be nothing big.

I am going to ignore everything here about weird test and stuff that you guys might plan to do with the new lamps. So if you fry your tailswitch or melt your flashlight or something, it's not my fault and you can contact the flashlight maker about warrenty. :laughing:

If you guys have specific questions that you would like to ask me, you are welcome to drop me a line by email or PM.

Thanks.

PS. Remember the rules that I have posted on using the IMR lamps and you will have a durable, safe and reliable light source. 

PPS. I will also do some tests on the new AW tailswitch mod and will get back to you guys on how it works out.


Mark


----------



## RyanA

I plan on using Five Mega's D26 with the VLOP reflector for now. Here's a link https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/190833
It might wind up being really floody. :shrug:


----------



## M.S

Unfortunately 1185 does not fit in that socket... The biggest you can get is the FM1794 bulb.


----------



## RyanA

shoot, oh well. Pins are too wide? I've got some tl-3 lamps and wa-1185 lying around I'm suprised I didn't think of it sooner. whats the story with this FM bulb? is this a recent development? I haven't seen much data.:thinking:


----------



## RyanA

Meh, I really don't want to go with a turbo head. I guess I need to look up a used M3. I should have done more research. "Engage Brain, Then Wallet...":shrug: Oh well I'm still going to try fitting the 1185. GO-Go-Gadget-needle-nose pliers!


----------



## M.S

I bought the M3 and then found out that the fivemega bipin socket does not fit the standard M3 head, only the turboheads...


----------



## RyanA

Ow, thanks for the warning. I'd better go edit that post in the marketplace.


----------



## rtt

I was telling one of my co-worker about the IMR setup thread that I read the other day. He asked me a question that I have no knowledge about. I told him that I would ask the ican experts here on CPF.

My co-worker has a Streamlight TL-2 ican flashlight. He was wondering if a TL-3 bulb would fit the TL2 flashlight and if he can then use 2x IMR 16340 to power this setup. Will the TL-3 bulb fit in a TL-2 flashlight? Will the 2x IMR 16340 cells insta-flash the the TL-3 bulb?


----------



## Bullzeyebill

rtt said:


> I was telling one of my co-worker about the IMR setup thread that I read the other day. He asked me a question that I have no knowledge about. I told him that I would ask the ican experts here on CPF.
> 
> My co-worker has a Streamlight TL-2 ican flashlight. He was wondering if a TL-3 bulb would fit the TL2 flashlight and if he can then use 2x IMR 16340 to power this setup. Will the TL-3 bulb fit in a TL-2 flashlight? Will the 2x IMR 16340 cells insta-flash the the TL-3 bulb?



The TL3 lamp will work in the TL2, not sure about beam quality. The 2XIMR16340 should not, I would say would not, blow the bulb. I use 2X unprotected 17490's (shorter than protected 17500) in my TL3 with no instaflash problems, and these would be stronger than two IMR16340's.

Bill


----------



## alschmid

Are there plans for an IMR 14500? I have a Dexlight SKU  2888 and it would be nice to have a better battery than the junk ultrafire. Would there be a problem with the led and reverse click switch with the IMR?


----------



## Jay T

How is this for small and bright.

a 3 cell light that takes G4 bulbs. (compared to a 6P)





And it's loaded with 3 IMRs and an 1185.





Brightest pocket hotwire?


----------



## ampdude

Whoa, cool. what is that?


----------



## ampdude

alschmid said:


> Are there plans for an IMR 14500? I have a Dexlight SKU 2888 and it would be nice to have a better battery than the junk ultrafire. Would there be a problem with the led and reverse click switch with the IMR?



AW has not said, but I would be really surprised if an IMR14500 was not released, it would be pretty popular, especially for hotrodding 2AA lights.


----------



## Jay T

ampdude said:


> Whoa, cool. what is that?



Can't say. Don't ask. Forget you ever saw it.
https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/190855


----------



## ampdude

Interesting, thank you.


----------



## Nite

M.S said:


> Unfortunately 1185 does not fit in that socket... The biggest you can get is the FM1794 bulb.



No you can use the Axial bulb, higher voltage tho...


----------



## Nite

RyanA said:


> shoot, oh well. Pins are too wide? I've got some tl-3 lamps and wa-1185 lying around I'm suprised I didn't think of it sooner. whats the story with this FM bulb? is this a recent development? I haven't seen much data.:thinking:



I love that Fm1794 500 Lumens

adjustable socket

will use a streamlight tl3 bulb also...


----------



## RyanA

Nite said:


> No you can use the Axial bulb, higher voltage tho...


Interesting, what kind of voltage are we talking here?


----------



## DM51

I am running a 22W axial bulb in one of FM's D26 set-ups with 3x IMR16340. It is difficult to say whether it is as bright as (or brghter than) the FM1794, as the beam characteristics are totally different. The axial bulb gives a very wide and even flood, the 1794 more of a spot.


----------



## mdocod

rtt said:


> I was telling one of my co-worker about the IMR setup thread that I read the other day. He asked me a question that I have no knowledge about. I told him that I would ask the ican experts here on CPF.
> 
> My co-worker has a Streamlight TL-2 ican flashlight. He was wondering if a TL-3 bulb would fit the TL2 flashlight and if he can then use 2x IMR 16340 to power this setup. Will the TL-3 bulb fit in a TL-2 flashlight? Will the 2x IMR 16340 cells insta-flash the the TL-3 bulb?



Yes, this should work fine as I understand it. I have heard of many people using the TL-3 bulb in a TL-2 with RCR123s, with IMR16340s it should be even slightly brighter/whiter that those RCR123 setups, but there won't be any problems with the bulb if you ask me.

Eric


----------



## mdocod

Hey Jay T!!!

We/I demand more information about that flashlight host you have there with the G4 socket! Is that something readily available somewhere?

I'd really like to here more about that. The concept of an 1185 style configuration without the bulky turbohead might be very appealing to a number of people 

Eric


----------



## StarHalo

mdocod said:


> The concept of an 1185 style configuration without the bulky turbohead might be very appealing to a number of people


----------



## Icebreak

His link explains his unwillingness to discuss the host.


----------



## StarHalo

Icebreak said:


> His link explains his unwillingness to discuss the host.



I just want a 2-3x123 host with a bi-pin socket that will run '85s and '61s, the rest is details. It's a shame that it was poorly done before, but we're on to LiMN technology now, so out with the old..

Whoever is first to build a handful of 1000+ lumen Surefire EDCs and sell them on the Marketplace will be handsomely recompensed..


----------



## Icebreak

Me too. I'm on board with you and that concept. Quite a while back I proved to myself that a powerful HotWire lamp could project well even in a 26mm reflector. I called it the Brute66. Here's a thread with beamshots. The WA1166 works well, I think, because the filament is very tightly wound and it's total real estate is small.

I think FiveMega's FM1794 is the best example so far in a 26mm reflector. A three cell 1185 would be awesome but, of course, the runtime might not be very good. That might be OK for certain uses. I'd rather have a 26mm but I would be not be adverse to a 30mm. 36mm is too big for what I want. So a 3 cell small head Surefire hosting a ~1000 lu lamp would be stellar. For me, a 4 cell would be OK but I don't think it would be as popular as a 3 cell.


----------



## RyanA

I think that might be my new years resolution. Bug Five Mega until he makes one or I get banned:sick2:... lol


----------



## M.S

Check out this post...


----------



## RyanA

It has begun, the flashlight apocalypse is here. *queue the wrath-of-god opera music* How will it end, young children with pocket-sized 64623's vaporizing the neighbors cat on the way to the bus stop. Nay, I say it has gone too far.

I'm just kidding, I dream of that day. Cats be damned. They knew it was coming and If they wanted to avoid it they could have been less evil.:laughing:


----------



## mdocod

RyanA said:


> They knew it was coming and If they wanted to avoid it they could have been less evil.:laughing:



aye-men


----------



## Nite

Icebreak said:


> His link explains his unwillingness to discuss the host.



the photo implies not only he has one, but it works!

and i saw some of the links that still work. too bad the beamshots arent there anymore.


----------



## brunt_sp

I am also confused about why clicky tailcaps are not recommended for any IMR lamp use. I use the following example to demonstrate my confusion :

The SF M4 is supplied with an MN61 lamp and the Z58 clicky tailcap is an authorised accessory. They quote the output to be 350 lumens but of course that is torch lumens which if using the trusted factor of 0.65 equates to about 550 bulb lumens. 

My basic feelings are that Surefire will have designed this tailcap to have a good margin of reliability for this setup. I'm guessing that it would reliably withstand at least another 25% current and would therefore be OK with LF's new IMR-9 and IMR-M3 lamps, (Both of which are 500 bulb lumens) and perhaps its IMR-M3T. (Rated at 700 lumens).


----------



## mdocod

brunt_sp said:


> I am also confused about why clicky tailcaps are not recommended for any IMR lamp use. I use the following example to demonstrate my confusion :
> 
> The SF M4 is supplied with an MN61 lamp and the Z58 clicky tailcap is an authorised accessory. They quote the output to be 350 lumens but of course that is torch lumens which if using the trusted factor of 0.65 equates to about 550 bulb lumens.
> 
> My basic feelings are that Surefire will have designed this tailcap to have a good margin of reliability for this setup. I'm guessing that it would reliably withstand another 25% current and would therefore be ok with LF's new IMR-9 and IMR-M3 lamps, (Both of which are 500 bulb lumens) and perhaps its IMR-M3T. (Rated at 700 lumens).



Please read post #23 and #24 in this thread. 

The SolarForce reverse clickie may actually be better suited to handle the higher current lamps.... 

Eric


----------



## Youfoundnemo

So when are we gonna see the specs on the new IMR lamp assemblys ( some of us may want to know the specs (or ball park) before they become available for purchase)
I know I just got a P91 because I couldnt wait for the IMR lamps.... and the sad part is that I dont even have any IMR cells to run the P91 yet


----------



## effulgentOne

Youfoundnemo said:


> So when are we gonna see the specs on the new IMR lamp assemblys ( some of us may want to know the specs (or ball park) before they become available for purchase)
> I know I just got a P91 because I couldnt wait for the IMR lamps.... and the sad part is that I dont even have any IMR cells to run the P91 yet



http://www.cpfmarketplace.com/mp/showthread.php?t=185415

Gotta check more subforums.


----------



## cchurchi

Ran 3 X IMR18650 in a Wolf-Eyes M300 without any issues. The batteries were a little loose in the battery cartridge because of their shorter length but it wasn't a problem. The output seemed a little brighter then when using Li-on, but my eyes might just be playing tricks on me.


----------



## RyanA

Youfoundnemo said:


> So when are we gonna see the specs on the new IMR lamp assemblys ( some of us may want to know the specs (or ball park) before they become available for purchase)
> I know I just got a P91 because I couldnt wait for the IMR lamps.... and the sad part is that I dont even have any IMR cells to run the P91 yet



I ordered a bunch off of Lighthound.


----------



## pertinax

Wow-- I just put two IMR 16340's in a Surefire P6, with the 1794 lamp. It's ROP territory, yet fits in your pocket.

Very impressive.


----------



## brunt_sp

mdocod said:


> Please read post #23 and #24 in this thread. Eric


 Thanks Eric. I see the main problem is "the initial burst rate is probably more like 6 amps (guesstimating), and the running current is probably more like 2.7A." As this would be too much for a clicky, how about AW's softstart tailcap internals ? This makes it a clicky style function (Apart from losing the momentary on feature). He quotes it as being able to drive lamps up to 75W.


----------



## Bullzeyebill

brunt_sp said:


> Thanks Eric. I see the main problem is "the initial burst rate is probably more like 6 amps (guesstimating), and the running current is probably more like 2.7A." As this would be too much for a clicky, how about AW's softstart tailcap internals ? This makes it a clicky style function (Apart from losing the momentary on feature). He quotes it as being able to drive lamps up to 75W.



Go to AW selling thread in CPF Mods BST for more info.

Bill


----------



## brunt_sp

Bullzeyebill said:


> Go to AW selling thread in CPF Mods BST for more info. Bill


 I am aware of that thread and see that apart from the 75W he has also quoted that the custom made high tension spring will handle 8+ amp. without deforming / losing tension. I gather this will be OK for most IMR setups.


----------



## LIGHTSMAD

9P for me, with FM1794 bulb and running on AW18500's! there is 3 settings 30%-60%-100%, and even with this baby on the lowest mode its bright! 

i own a fair amount of lights but this is a must have!


----------



## mdocod

The AW switch has PWM soft-start IIRC, which totally eliminates all effect of current spike on startup. The switch is purpose designed for high power and will survive most of these IMR setups without even missing a beat.


----------



## brunt_sp

Thanks Mdocod.


----------



## gswitter

mdocod said:


> The concept of an 1185 style configuration without the bulky turbohead might be very appealing to a number of people


How about 3x IMR16340 in one of fivemega's 2x18500 Prince hosts?


----------



## RyanA

gswitter said:


> How about 3x IMR16340 in one of fivemega's 2x18500 Prince hosts?



Good point. I've got dibs on the last black one. Back off you... incandescent loving animals...:nana:

Edit: Gs, I see you scooped up the first. Hows that working out?


----------



## gswitter

I don't have the cells yet (they're wrapped and under the tree), but I've tried three primaries, and they fit fine. I imagine the concern about the clicky switch applies to this as well?

_Edit: So is the concern about IMR cells and clicky switches the current or the power? I haven't seen any reports of problems with this switch in the 2x "C" Prince (1111), and fivemega claims to be using it nightly without issue. With an 1185, the switch will be subjected to more power than with an 1111, but less current. I imagine if it can hold up to a 2x "C" 1111 set-up, it will probably be fine in a 3x IMR16340 1185. Thoughts?
_


----------



## mdocod

I don't see how anyone would be qualified to throw out guesses for which switches are going to work and which aren't. There's only going to be one way to find out in the end. 

Please take into consideration if the bulb you are going to be running was a bulb that the flashlight was originally intended to be used with (or if your flashlight shares a switch from a larger flashlight that can use it). If it's designed to handle that current, then there is a very good chance it will work fine, my personal feeling is that most switches out there are probably not going to be effected by the higher power cells unless they are matched to substantially higher power bulbs, I think it's just the SF clicky switches.... which have some strange "issues" ... hard to describe, I can make my Z59 do very strange things, sometimes it comes on and it appears to have dimmed about 50%... If it can cause output to dim by 50% all the sudden on "some" "turn-ons", then something is wrong with the design. We've literally had hundreds of people report lousy Z59s on this forum, so it's just not a switch to trust period, using IMR cells on it probably just makes it's failure rate even higher. I I strongly believe that many of them are just defective and the imr cells throw them over the edge and reveal their truly junky nature..... hehe.


----------



## gswitter

Fair enough. At least in the case of the Prince hosts, the switch is replaceable. And, I don't mind potentially sacrificing one in the name of research. :devil:


----------



## Jay T

gswitter said:


> Fair enough. At least in the case of the Prince hosts, the switch is replaceable. And, I don't mind potentially sacrificing one in the name of research. :devil:



From fivemega's sales post.


> All switches, boots and 40mm lenses are same as these



The 3x17670 1185 prince would be using the same switch as the 2x18500. There should no switch problem using an 1185 in the 2x18500.


----------



## OrlandoLights

Can someone give me a little guidance here? I've been reading here about hosts, IMRs, Incans, and drop-ins, and am having trouble figuring how all these parts relate. This is what I would like to do: Put together a good quality P60 host for both Incans and warm-tinted LEDs, using 2 x IMR 16340 or 1 x IMR 18650, so I can try different beams for walking and hiking, seeing what gives the most natural light outdoors.

These are the components I've seen here that might work together:

1. Surefire 6P host.
2. Lumens Factory EO-9
3. 1794? A bulb, I'm guessing, but I still need to do a search on that one.
4. Malkoff and Dereelight warm LED drop-ins, and something called Seoul high CRI, which I think would need modding, but that's a total mystery at the moment.
5. AWs soft start, or would the Surefire tailcap work as is? Would either change levels on drop-ins that have levels?
6. And of course IMRs, though I wonder how to keep from over-draining them when the drop-in module doesn't have a protection circuit.

Am I on the right track? Any suggestions or corrections would be very much appreciated.


----------



## RyanA

1. The 6p would be a good host. I would suggest getting a 6p with the led module.
2. I haven't looked into the LF lamps for a while. But with the IMRs it should run the the lamp so long as it's within the voltage specs. This lamp has been designed with Li-ions and lower discharge rates in mind, Normally I believe you would need at least an 18500 size li-ion cell to run that lamp. But the IMR 16340s should be capable of delivering the required amperage, although with reduced runtime.
3. You can buy this bulb from FiveMega, it works in conjuction with this
https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/190833
4. I don't know of any drop-ins using the seoul high cri. There is additional information about it in this thread:
https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/202363
I suggest getting a 6p with the surefire led dropin because it also uses a seoul led of the same size, you could transplant a high cri into the module, or possibly send it off to milkyspit (a member here, you can see his posts on customs b/s/t) if hes not to busy. there may be modules that are easier to hack but I'm not aware of them, (I'm a cree man myself) I thought I saw a thread about hacking the SF module, I'll see if I can look it up.
5. The stock twist/push lock out momentary tailcap should be fine, Where I you, I would go with that for a bit and see how you like it. I'm not sure the soft start will be nessicary but others probably know better than I do, I've been slacking lately (lured off by those tricky devils in the led forums) and don't have much experience with new setups like the 1794. If you decide a stock switch just won't do. You may also want to look into a 2 stage switch as another possible path. It basically makes the light function like a Surefire L1 (wich is a pretty cool thing) but without the dual driver technology. Here is more info:
http://candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=83844&highlight=McC2S
6. Well youd have to keep track of runtime. or with lower current apps (like led) you can use protected rcr's. available here:
http://www.lighthound.com/AW-RCR123a-Protected-750-mAh-Battery_p_0-114.html

All in all though I'd say you're on the right track and off to a pretty good start.

EDIT

#4. Here we go, modded p60l dropin!
https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/202548
It looks quite difficult to mod the SF module. For something easier look for a 2 part seoul module with a removable pill and reflector.
You could also have the seoul emitter fitted into older luxeon applications using shims. For example I know that Milky sometimes puts shimmed seoul emmiters into these. 
http://www.surefire.com/KL3-LED-Conversion-Head
I'm not sure if the optic (this part uses a polymer colaminating lens, instead of a typical reflector, as does the malkoff) would effect the CRI at all though.


----------



## mdocod

RyanA!

Great response! I know that tracking down links is always a bear, a lot of work went into formulating that! :twothumbs

--------------

Hello OrlandoLights!

I wanted to start by saying how good it is to see that you have in fact, already done a lot of the homework, I can tell that you have put in a lot of work getting to this point and I would love to help fill in some voids for you. This can get complicated really fast... so I'll try to do what I can to throw in my 2 lumens:

1. 6P host: The 6P can take up to 17mm diameter cells, so the 18650 option isn't available here.
2. The EO-9 is a nice performer in the incan world. And on IMR16340 cells, it runs for about 15 minutes.
3. See RyanA's link  , it's the highest power bulb available, that I am aware of, that can be mounted into a D26 size module and run on just 2 li-ion cells. Runtime is short, like, maybe 8-9 minutes. Output is really great for the first few minutes, 400+ torch lumen is actually possible here if the resistance in your flashlight is low enough, (sticking to the stock twisty of the 6P helps towards this end dramatically). 
4. The modding option might be tough.... depends on your skill level of with a soldering iron..... but it could be done. If It were me, i would buy one of the "blank" D26 modules from DX (comes with brass "pill" and aluminum reflector) and try to rig something up from that, try to use a decent buck regulator that will run the LED of choice within spec..... all this might be more complicated that you want to get into, so the DereeLight and MalkOff warm emitter options are probably the more practical solution at this time..
5. The AW soft-start is certainly an option if you want multi-mode.... but for regular setups, there is nothing that can beat the stock Z41 of a 6p for reliability. There's basically no place for failure in that setup.
6.
6. 
6. ..... hmmmm... how to say this.... Honestly..... I would focus on using IMR cells for drag strip style super compact incan performers, like the 1794, and keep the LED configurations totally separate if possible. As said, there is really no way to prevent an over-discharge of an IMR cell with an LED module unless you time the discharge and terminate it on time. 

And yes, you are definitely on the right track overall, just a few bugs to work out for what you want to do....

IMO: Get a SolarForce L2 with 18650 body, and use it to run a DereeLight or M30 (with warm emitter, if available) or a "selected tint" 3.7V LumensFactory LED module, with a protected LiCo 18650.... Then have a separate option of running a pair of IMR16340s with some high power incans to try out.... sell whatever you don't like and standardize around what you do like.....


----------



## cchurchi

I'm getting 45 minutes out of 3 X IMR18650 in my Wolf Eyes M300. I just wish there was a much higher output bulb available for this light with a 15 minute or so run time!


----------



## OrlandoLights

Thank you RyanA and mdocod for taking the time for those in-depth responses! I'll follow the links tonight.

I had done a search for FiveMega, but had missed his socket/reflector for sale, along with the bulbs. That opens up a lot of possibilities.

For some reason I thought the 18650 was the same size as 2 x 16340s. After checking on dimensions, I now see how they get their numerical designations.:thinking: So I'll need to get two hosts it seems, and use one for LED and one for Incan.

I don't think I have the skills to do the Seoul high CRI mod, so I'll probably have to save that for later, or find one already built. Looks like someone used a Fenix for the Seoul. I have an L2D, maybe that would work.

3 x IMR 16340s are sitting here, charged up and waiting for Christmas, when my GF is giving me an LF3XT. That light can be used to test runtimes and battery drain on the IMR 16340 cells in other lights, since the LF3XT has an accurate battery test circuit.

Thanks again, I think once I get my bearings this is going to be very interesting, trying different bulbs and comparing the quality of the light outdoors.


----------



## RyanA

mdocod said:


> RyanA!
> 
> Great response! I know that tracking down links is always a bear, a lot of work went into formulating that! :twothumbs


Thanks!



OrlandoLights said:


> For some reason I thought the 18650 was the same size as 2 x 16340s. After checking on dimensions, I now see how they get their numerical designations.:thinking: So I'll need to get two hosts it seems, and use one for LED and one for Incan.



I hear you on the led mods, they can be kind of complicated. That's one of the reasons I came back to the incan forums. So long as the numbers are right incans are quick, simple, and brutally effective. and now with the LI-MN cells we can add compact to the description.:devil:
As far as the 18650 and 16340 you would really only need a host designed to fit one 18650, as it is the wider cell. 2 16340s should pretty much always fit in a space designed for an 18650. But due to it's larger diameter an 18650 may not always fit in a space designed for 2 16340s. There might be an issue with the cells rattling in the larger body, but that can be fixed with a few sheets of printer paper. Maybe not the most aesthetically pleasing, but effective.


----------



## OrlandoLights

mdocod said:


> Then have a separate option of running a pair of IMR16340s with some high power incans to try out....



So you don't have to worry so much about the IMR's lack of a protection circuit with Incan, because you can tell how low the battery has discharged by the level of light output?


----------



## Youfoundnemo

exactly, once it begins to dim stop using it


----------



## naked2

I've been following about 5 other IMR threads, including LF's (new lamps) and both of AW's (new cells and new switches). I can't believe I hadn't found this one before today. I've just finished reading through all 7 pages, and it's been very interesting, informative, and above all, fun! 

Below I listed pretty much everything that's been mentioned about switches up to this point, just for reference. At the bottom of the quotes, I have some questions.


[email protected] said:


> Yes, what mdocod is "exactly" what I meant in every sense of the word.
> 
> SO I will quote,
> *"1. Using LiMn (IMR) cells, even with currently available high current lamps, like the EO-9/EO-M3/EO-M3T/P91/MN11/MN16, will probably slightly increase the risk of a clickie switch failure. *
> *2. Using LiMn (IMR) cells, with lamps that draw more power than the lamps listed above, like the new line of IMR specific lamps from LF, is going to increase the chances of causing a clickie failure even more. *
> 
> *Basically, use existing lamps with IMR cells with clickies at your own risk, don't use them on the new IMR lamps."*
> 
> Remember we have fried 3 clickies, (4 now). With the quickest fry in 2 minutes. We have done the "trial and error" testings for you, so you don't have to. So please if you have a twisty, use that to be safe even on the above setups. Clickies aren't actually cheap to buy you know.


 


mdocod said:


> The solar-force clickie is a reverse clickie, it's *possible* it might handle the current, but IIRC the switches in them are rated for like 1.5A, but I have used a similar reverse clickie (on an ultrafire) for years on loads above that, many of the time on a P91. Reverse clickie designs tend to be more robust as far as the amount of current they can repeatedly switch before failure.
> 
> My recommendation is as follows if you have a solarforce clicker that you want to use on an IMR setup.
> 
> 1. Be prepared to sacrifice the clickie, consider it sacrificed the second you put the configuration together.
> 2. If it does fail, then worry about trying to modify it into a twisty- yes, it's probably possible.
> 
> Eric


 


mdocod said:


> Mungon,
> 
> Thank You for the updates, I had a feeling the cheap reverse clickies would probably tolerate these loads fine for awhile...
> 
> I'll try to do some additional testing of my own when I have something setup to do so with...
> 
> Eric


 


mdocod said:


> Not sure if this is the best place to put this, but I just did a runtime test of the new IMR16340 cells in a 6P on a Solarforce reverse clicky driving an EO-9..
> 
> Runtime was almost exactly 16 minutes before sudden major dimming. Ending open circuit voltage ~3.1V, average current ~1.9A. By my math, they delivered right around 500mAH into a ~4C load, very impressive. The last 5 minutes isn't as bright as ideal, so I would say this is a good setup for something you want to run for 10 minutes, with some reserve on tap "just in case."
> 
> Eric


 


brunt_sp said:


> AW is developing softstart internals for SF clickies that can handle 75W. See post #50.
> 
> https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/210673
> 
> Perhaps we are not going to be confined to twisties for our IMR setups.


 


Bullzeyebill said:


> I think that AW's new soft start tailcap setup for the Surefire C,M,P series will allow us to run our P91, MN16's, and MN61's with fully charged hi cap 18650's regular, or the IMR 18650's, without danger of instaflash. Not sure though, but I will experiment when my AW tailcap mod shows up.
> 
> Bill


 


mdocod said:


> The AW switch has PWM soft-start IIRC, which totally eliminates all effect of current spike on startup. The switch is purpose designed for high power and will survive most of these IMR setups without even missing a beat.


My first question is about a lamp I have that I'm trying to identify, so I have a reference point to compare to all the lamps mentioned. (I know, everything I quoted is about switches, but I'll link the questions).

I bought a G2 complete host from nikon at CPFMP, and when I recieved it, he had thrown in a lamp. It's marked "UltraFire G74 7.4V lamp" In the G2 with 2 fresh protected 16340s it draws about 1.4A. In a G3 with 2 fresh protected 17500s, it draws about 1.5A. If my math is correct, that makes it 5 or 6W, correct? 

In either setup, I had to double tap the switch. I had recently gutted one of the Nitrolon caps and replaced them with a SolarForce reverse clicky, although I keep trying to justify buying AW's version B soft start. Anyways, I was trying the innards from various switches to see if one might find a permanent home in the Nitrolon cap, and I remembered my G&P AI strobe switch; it fit perfect! And much to my surprise, the "G74" LA fired first click! And press and hold worked its strobe function.

It seems that this switch works like a soft start! Single mode with click on/click off, except it adds momentary with strobe! My second question is, since it *IS* electronic like AW's, and *IS NOT *mechanical like Z59's, shouldn't it be able to power up an IMR-9 (if they're ever released! ) with 2x IMR16340s, even if it only does run 8 mins.? I'm in for the fun factor! :devil: And like Eric mentioned above, I'm prepared to sacrifice the switch  (I have two! :naughty.

Thanks, Tony


----------



## mdocod

Hello Tony,



naked2 said:


> My first question is about a lamp I have that I'm trying to identify, so I have a reference point to compare to all the lamps mentioned. (I know, everything I quoted is about switches, but I'll link the questions).
> 
> I bought a G2 complete host from nikon at CPFMP, and when I recieved it, he had thrown in a lamp. It's marked "UltraFire G74 7.4V lamp" In the G2 with 2 fresh protected 16340s it draws about 1.4A. In a G3 with 2 fresh protected 17500s, it draws about 1.5A. If my math is correct, that makes it 5 or 6W, correct?



It's about a 10-12W bulb depending on the cells you use to drive it. (~7.4V x ~1.45A) It would probably be comparable to an HO-9, or Wolf-Eyes "9V" D26. Somewhere in that range. 



> In either setup, I had to double tap the switch.



1.4A is going to be over the 2C maximum recommended discharge rate for RCR123 size LiCo cells. You could benefit a lot here to be running this on IMR16340s, you'd probably get the 1.5A+ through the bulb on the IMRs. 

I'm curious to know what brand of RCR123s and 17500s you have, as most of the modern protected LiCo cells that are intended for use in flashlight applications have higher current limits set on the PCBs, even AWs little RCR123s will light up an EO-9 (2 amps) on the first click, (not advisable as that would be far over the maximum safe discharge rate). 




> I had recently gutted one of the Nitrolon caps and replaced them with a SolarForce reverse clicky, although I keep trying to justify buying AW's version B soft start. Anyways, I was trying the innards from various switches to see if one might find a permanent home in the Nitrolon cap, and I remembered my G&P AI strobe switch; it fit perfect! And much to my surprise, the "G74" LA fired first click! And press and hold worked its strobe function.
> 
> It seems that this switch works like a soft start! Single mode with click on/click off, except it adds momentary with strobe! My second question is, since it *IS* electronic like AW's, and *IS NOT *mechanical like Z59's, shouldn't it be able to power up an IMR-9 (if they're ever released! ) with 2x IMR16340s, even if it only does run 8 mins.? I'm in for the fun factor! :devil: And like Eric mentioned above, I'm prepared to sacrifice the switch  (I have two! :naughty.
> 
> 
> Thanks, Tony



I'm not sure if it has a soft start, or if it's just adding a lot of resistance which would help reduce the initial current spike just enough maybe... Definitely be ready to sacrifice the switch in this case  If it is truly electronic, then it's just going to depend on how much current those electronics can take, and how much resistance they have. If they do have more than an ideal amount of resistance, then they may be prone to over-heat and fail when run at higher power...

Eric


----------



## Nite

mdocod said:


> RyanA!
> 
> Great response! I know that tracking down links is always a bear, a lot of work went into formulating that! :twothumbs
> 
> --------------
> 
> Hello OrlandoLights!
> 
> IMO: Get a SolarForce L2 with 18650 body, and use it to run a DereeLight or M30 (with warm emitter, if available) or a "selected tint" 3.7V LumensFactory LED module, with a protected LiCo 18650.... Then have a separate option of running a pair of IMR16340s with some high power incans to try out.... sell whatever you don't like and standardize around what you do like.....



Id have to disagree and say go with FiveMega over Solarforce on the body.

but i am biased


----------



## naked2

Thanks one more time for your reply!


mdocod said:


> Hello Tony,
> 
> It's about a 10-12W bulb depending on the cells you use to drive it. (~7.4V x ~1.45A) It would probably be comparable to an HO-9, or Wolf-Eyes "9V" D26. Somewhere in that range.


Doh!  Man, I took one look at that and I was embarrassed, and thought "Has it been that long since I've used Watts Law?" P= I x E, where P= power (watts), I= current (amps), and E= electromotive force, or potential (volts)- learned that In Basic Electricity (of course that was in 1982!). At any rate, It's good to now have a LA that I know it's wattage and can compare it to other LAs you guys are talking about. Kudos to nikon for "throwing that in" with the G2! :thumbsup: And again, just for comparison, what are the 6V P61's specs, since it's a SureFire "listed accessory" for the G2? 


mdocod said:


> 1.4A is going to be over the 2C maximum recommended discharge rate for RCR123 size LiCo cells. You could benefit a lot here to be running this on IMR16340s, you'd probably get the 1.5A+ through the bulb on the IMRs.
> 
> I'm curious to know what brand of RCR123s and 17500s you have, as most of the modern protected LiCo cells that are intended for use in flashlight applications have higher current limits set on the PCBs, even AWs little RCR123s will light up an EO-9 (2 amps) on the first click, (not advisable as that would be far over the maximum safe discharge rate).


I'm gonna have to break down and buy two pairs of IMR16340s, but I still don't think I have any setups that will benefit from IMR18650s (yet! :devil. My bet is the next size IMR cell AW releases will be 17500. 

Most of my stuff is LED. The only other incans I have right now are an EO-E1R in my old E2 with an UltraFire protected 17670 that fires first click every time and draws 1.35A. I've also tried it in my old E1 with one of my RCR123s, but have a hard time getting it to light up at all; when it does, it also draws 1.35A. I also have the P90 that came with my G3 in an old Brinkman with (I think) unprotected 700mAh MPs. It's in my wife's car, and she's not here right now; I need to test it to make sure that set up's not above 2C either.

The RCR123s I have are blue Chinese generic "Li-ion 3.6V 750mAh". I bought them from Lighthound when I first got into rechargables about two years ago. Somewhere I read something that led me to believe they were AW's old blue RCR123s with the label removed, I don't know. I've had good luck with them; I bought 10 of them and not one problem. Of course I haven't used all 10, as a matter of fact, I think other than checking their state of charge, 4 of them have never been used. In that same time period however, I've had three pairs of Ultra/TrustFires go bad on me, mostly PCB failure.

The 17500s are gray "UltraFire LC 17500 1300mAh 3.6V Li-on" Same thing, no problems. Bought two pairs about a year and a half ago after I bought my G3. So I recently bought four more for 10 bucks on CPFMP.


mdocod said:


> I'm not sure if it has a soft start, or if it's just adding a lot of resistance which would help reduce the initial current spike just enough maybe... Definitely be ready to sacrifice the switch in this case  If it is truly electronic, then it's just going to depend on how much current those electronics can take, and how much resistance they have. If they do have more than an ideal amount of resistance, then they may be prone to over-heat and fail when run at higher power...
> 
> Eric


It's truly electronic, there's nothing mechanical about it. Plus it's got a pretty heavy gold plated sping. What ohm value would be considered "alot of resistance", and how can I measure it? For example, with an UltraFire reverse clicky, when I click it on and check it with a DMM, it reads zero ohms. With the AI switch, when I click it, I get no reading; when I press and hold, the readout dances around, setles VERY briefly to around 50 ohms, then back to no reading. So I'm not sure if the 50 ohm reading is accurate or not.

And as far as the "fun factor", since the IMR-9 has yet to be released, no one knows if it will out perform a 1794. Do you think it's worth the wait? I've been this long without a D26 EOLA, so a little while longer won't bother me, but the more I read about the 1794, the more I like it.

Thanks in advance, Tony


----------



## Nite

And as far as the "fun factor", since the IMR-9 has yet to be released, no one knows if it will out perform a 1794. Do you think it's worth the wait? I've been this long without a D26 EOLA, so a little while longer won't bother me, but the more I resd about the 1794, the more I like it.

Thanks in advance, Tony"


Dudeman Tony

The FM 1794 wont disappoint you.

its a "wall of light" in an HS reflector....or a great thrower at LS to MOP and VLOP. you can adjust the focus of the spot. use different bulbs in that thing if you want. Did you read that thread? 

I am now running a 2x18650 With a pair of LiCoLion AW driving a FM 1794
with HS or LS reflectors. With an AW softstart, the fully charged cells will not blow the bulb.

Before softstart i had to babysit my cells and pull them at 4.10 volts or id flash the 1794

im getting amazing brightness.....great runtimes.

Only advantage for LiMR is I guess safety, until the IMR-9 comes out, LiCo is better for me, 33% more capacity.

I use IMR in my 1x18650 only in 16340 size now. driving an FM1794 or a 6P/P91, but for alot less time.

I own two IMR 18650 cells but havent got a use for them yet.

You really cant go wrong with a FiveMega Bi PIn module. The bulbs are only 10$ each. 

I suggest, You must buy an FM body however..the super strong hi current spring in the FM D26 lamp assembly is very strong and long. If you try any other body expect crushed springs and needing to use Shorter unprotected cells. I first tried it in a LEEF which I LOVE, but it wasnt long enough for newer AW button top cells and the FM D26 drop in.

no other body has the extra room for protected button tops and that long spring.

whatever 18650 -> chemistry you use, if using fully charged cells and an FM 1794 get the soft start switch.


----------



## naked2

Like I said, the more I readie, the more I likie! :twothumbs I'm gonna have to get me a 1794 kit. And if I do, I think I'll try it with my G&P switch, 'cause like you said, the bulbs are only 10 bucks, and if I instaflash one, I'm not out very much. But if I instaflash a IMR-9, I'm out probably twice as much!

And it's more versatile; I could use the socket in a single cell setup with a Strion bulb! Aren't there 3 cell applications for the socket also?


----------



## Nite

naked2 said:


> Like I said, the more I readie, the more I likie! :twothumbs I'm gonna have to get me a 1794 kit. And if I do, I think I'll try it with my G&P switch, 'cause like you said, the bulbs are only 10 bucks, and if I instaflash one, I'm not out very much. But if I instaflash a IMR-9, I'm out probably twice as much!
> 
> And it's more versatile; I could use the socket in a single cell setup with a Strion bulb! Aren't there 3 cell applications for the socket also?



Yes, you can use liCo-ion cells or LiMh in one two or three cell setups with a FiveMega Bi Pin 1.5MM Bulb D26 assembly, there are bulbs that go in there for 1, 2, and 3 cells. All on his thread. Im told by FM himself the 1794 is brighter and whiter than his higher volt axial bulb.

at 22+ watts its a real draw on cells. So its only 18500x2 or 18650x2, or little 16340s Limns

You wont flash the 1794 if you do one of two things, using 2x18500 or 18650x2 LiCO or 16340 Limn....charge cells to only 4.10...two cells at 8.2 volts is the MAX on an FM1794. If you charge beyond 4.10 you will need a soft start switch. 8.3-8.4 volts will flash a 1794

it doesnt matter what kind of cells you use or fully charge if you have a soft start.

anyway its only 26$ and the assembly will fit any FiveMega body no problem. It has even been squeezed into LEEFS and SF bodies and worked fine. however this will crush your springs and cells based on my experience..I had to use unprotected with it until i got Fm bodies.

then you can put like 50 different bulbs in there..the earth has thousands of 1.5 MM bulbs around. I suggest three or four types..the ones FM sells or Litho but at 10$ the FM1794 is my favorite, followed by P91, then EO-9, I like the EO-9 simply because it wont flash at 8.4 volts on liCO lion.


----------



## Nite

its only 36$ for the bulb and reflector and socket. He will put it together for you so when it arrives just drop it in,.

at 10$ the 1794 is also the brightest bulb I own.

If you touch the bulb it will flash from your fingerprint oil.

I suggest a Light Stipple reflector for your first. Then you can go HS for more flood, or MOP for more throw. I think LS is the best balance of both, because you can focus the spot in that setup.


----------



## naked2

Nite said:


> its only 36$ for the bulb and reflector and socket. He will put it together for you so when it arrives just drop it in,.
> 
> at 10$ the 1794 is also the brightest bulb I own.
> 
> If you touch the bulb it will flash from your fingerprint oil.
> 
> I suggest a Light Stipple reflector for your first. Then you can go HS for more flood, or MOP for more throw. I think LS is the best balance of both, because you can focus the spot in that setup.


You read my mind,as that was going to be my next question, thanks. So, correct me if I'm wrong, or if I missed any:

HS= high stipple= flood
LS=light stipple= combination flood and throw
MOP= medium orange peel= more throw
VLOP= very light orange peel= most throw

Does that look about right?


----------



## pete7226

Nite, with what batts are you flashing the 1794 with? I've used mine hot off the charger at 4.20 volts with 2xAw18650 dozens of times without any problem. A little puzzled as to why you are flashing this bulb, charger probelm maybe(overcharging)?


----------



## Nite

pete7226 said:


> Nite, with what batts are you flashing the 1794 with? I've used mine hot off the charger at 4.20 volts with 2xAw18650 dozens of times without any problem. A little puzzled as to why you are flashing this bulb, charger probelm maybe(overcharging)?



Maybe they were near the end of their life..or I touched them.

happens to often to risk it.

Also FM himself told me what your doing is a No-no as LiCo 18650 and LIMN 16340 dont sag as much as 18500 and smaller, cells.

SO you are almost operating outside of the 1794s, pushing the envelope.

He said that Bulb depends on the immediate sagging of voltage on the 22+ watt 1794 to not burn out. Also all my cells are brand New. 

Fresh off the charger at 8.4 volts? No flashes? 10 Hours? Wow, thats cool

I would ask MDOCOD to chime in on this..besides he prefers we pull the cells b4 4.2 to enhance their life. Which I have been doing, perhaps im getting less sag since I babysit my cells. However I once read someone say lifes to short and he doesnt care of he gets 300 instead of 1,000 cycles.

I even had one defective bulb which FM replaced at no charge.


----------



## Nite

naked2 said:


> You read my mind,as that was going to be my next question, thanks. So, correct me if I'm wrong, or if I missed any:
> 
> HS= high stipple= flood
> LS=light stipple= combination flood and throw
> MOP= medium orange peel= more throw
> VLOP= very light orange peel= most throw
> 
> Does that look about right?



that right....

what are you going to use your light for is the determiner of the reflector.

impressing friends with throw? Law enforcement? Camping? these are all different reflectors.

I find the MOP and sometimes the LS hotspot blinds myself with reflected light at close range, often when walking my dog,..just too powerful..a malkoff flood does the job..but the versatility of a 1794 plus soft start is just great.

i keep either an IMR 2x16340 1794 LS or P91 for self defense.

and a big 2x18650 in my car with LS or MOP

around the house HS is great..walking the dog.

HS is not best at blinding an enemy as a more focused beam, p91 or LS, but he still wont be able to see.

last time I had to use my light for self defense I was using a pair of 18500 in a LEEF body running a P91..the amount of physical pain i caused to his eyes while he was being blinded, twice, made him stop coming back for more.

i didnt even have to Mace either of them.




Lighting up an entire House at once with HS is awesome.


----------



## gswitter

pete7226 said:


> Nite, with what batts are you flashing the 1794 with? I've used mine hot off the charger at 4.20 volts with 2xAw18650 dozens of times without any problem. A little puzzled as to why you are flashing this bulb, charger probelm maybe(overcharging)?


What host are you using? Both times I tried a 1794 with two fresh AW18650's (black label, button-tops), it flashed. Partially depleted cells (4.0v) were fine.


----------



## naked2

Nite said:


> that right....
> 
> what are you going to use your light for is the determiner of the reflector.
> 
> impressing friends with throw? Law enforcement? Camping? these are all different reflectors.
> 
> I find the MOP and sometimes the LS hotspot blinds myself with reflected light at close range, often when walking my dog,..just too powerful..a malkoff flood does the job..but the versatility of a 1794 plus soft start is just great.
> 
> i keep either an IMR 2x16340 1794 LS or P91 for self defense.
> 
> and a big 2x18650 in my car with LS or MOP
> 
> around the house HS is great..walking the dog.
> 
> HS is not best at blinding an enemy as a more focused beam, p91 or LS, but he still wont be able to see.
> 
> last time I had to use my light for self defense I was using a pair of 18500 in a LEEF body running a P91..the amount of physical pain i caused to his eyes while he was being blinded, twice, made him stop coming back for more.
> 
> i didnt even have to Mace either of them.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Lighting up an entire House at once with HS is awesome.


I think I might have to go with your original recommendation of LS, mainly because I have any one of 10 or more LED medium to long range throwers, plus 10 or more pocket sized LED flashlights with various beam types. And since my main goal with my new incan endeavor is the "Fun Factor", :twothumbs I think I'd like to try something different.

Thanks for all your help, Jason! :thumbsup:
Your fellow flashaholic, Tony


----------



## Nite

gswitter said:


> What host are you using? Both times I tried a 1794 with two fresh AW18650's (black label, button-tops), it flashed. Partially depleted cells (4.0v) were fine.



See I knew it!

I bet his setup has some built in resistance..maybe due to old age.

Safe voltage threshold on a FM1794 based on my using them exclusively lately...8.2 volts. Maybe 8.25 after settling. And letting them settle after charging first is a MUST.

man every 40$ Z59 I own is about to get very expensive as each one needs a soft start for my favorite config, until the IMR-EO-9 etc


----------



## Nite

naked2 said:


> I think I might have to go with your original recommendation of LS, mainly because I have any one of 10 or more LED medium to long range throwers, plus 10 or more pocket sized LED flashlights with various beam types. And since my main goal with my new incan endeavor is the "Fun Factor", :twothumbs I think I'd like to try something different.
> 
> Thanks for all your help, Jason! :thumbsup:
> Your fellow flashaholic, Tony



if you like flood
go crazy and add an extra HS reflector youll be glad you did its only extra 16$ if that

remember they are very adjustable. From disgusting to far out and everything in between, hotspot to no spot.!


----------



## naked2

Nite said:


> if you like flood
> go crazy and add an extra HS reflector youll be glad you did its only extra 16$ if that
> 
> remember they are very adjustable. From disgusting to far out and everything in between, hotspot to no spot.!


Oh, I went crazy and ordered all this:

*$urefire C head, "C" cell Body, Clickie Tail Switch, 1C*
*$urefire C head, "C" cell Body, Clickie Tail Switch, 2C*
*FM-D26 Bi-Pin socket/Reflector *
*FM1794 bulb, x2 (in case of instaflash!)*
*E2e Bi-Pin socket* 

Plus I've gotta place an order each with Lighthound, and AW!

Merry Christmas to me! :santa:


----------



## pete7226

I guess I've been lucky and gotten some stellar bulbs in. I use a Leef body 2x18650 with z41 tailcap. In addition, I've never burned out a bulb, SF or otherwise from use, despite the 10-20 hour lamp-life reported, and that goes with daily use in 13 years as a PO, so I guess there is definitely some variance between bulbs. FM's products and service has been great, I also received a bad 1794 bulb which he promptly replaced. 
If a cell lasts me 2 years Im happy, they get charged about twice/week. BTW, I'm not using IMR18650, just the regular protected ones.


And yes, this particular set of batts are about 1 year old


----------



## Bullzeyebill

Nite said:


> if you like flood
> go crazy and add an extra HS reflector youll be glad you did its only extra 16$ if that
> 
> remember they are very adjustable. From disgusting to far out and everything in between, hotspot to no spot.!



Where does one buy these extra reflectors? These are for mag mods, or for Surefire lights?

Bill


----------



## Nite

Bullzeyebill said:


> Where does one buy these extra reflectors? These are for mag mods, or for Surefire lights?
> 
> Bill



https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/190833


these are for SF lights (he makes them 4 mag as well)


----------



## brunt_sp

Mark has just confirmed the IMR-E2 for E series torches. I'm reading that the output will be comparable to the EO-9 so that will really make the SF E2E into a pocket rocket.


----------



## Nite

DO I need to spend 150$ for a COnversion turbo head and bulb?

If the IMR bulbs were available I think not.


----------



## Youfoundnemo

they are available look at the IMR thread in the marketplace


----------



## naked2

Well, I just couldn't wait any longer for the STILL yet to be released D26 sized LF IMR LAs, let alone the E series ones, so I ordered the fivemega stuff.

Hey, fivemega, if you're following this thread (I know Nite is!), how 'bout beating LF to the punch with some "FMIMR" bipin bulbs for our D26, E2, etc. sockets? :twothumbs


----------



## naked2

Youfoundnemo said:


> they are available look at the IMR thread in the marketplace


Available? NOT!!


[email protected] said:


> Hi Guys,First, Release Date:
> We are currently waiting for the studio to finish the product photos for us, then we can put it on the website.
> We still need to finish up final bits and pieces before we can release it, so it might be delayed until January at the latest.


----------



## Nite

Youfoundnemo said:


> they are available look at the IMR thread in the marketplace



your wrong!:thumbsdow

show me where to send the money!!!!


----------



## Youfoundnemo

Mkay so I read it wrong, shoot me why dont ya


----------



## Nite

Youfoundnemo said:


> Mkay so I read it wrong, shoot me why dont ya



For a few minutes I believed you!

THen when I found out you were wrong I was so dissapointed :mecry:
:candle:

Firing squad on the way....Do you want a blindfold or a cigarrette?


----------



## Youfoundnemo

Ehhh I was thinking more along the lines of a dip and an old hat


----------



## gswitter

gswitter said:


> How about 3x IMR16340 in one of fivemega's 2x18500 Prince hosts?


Update: I got a half dozen IMR16340's from my wife for Xmas. A fivemega 2x 18500 Prince host with a WA1185 powered by 3x IMR16340 is a very nice set-up. :devil:

So far, I've only tried it with partially depleted cells measuring 12.2v total. My only concern is if there's enough resistance in the host to keep the bulb from ing on fresh cells. I'll update again when the cells are topped off.

_Edit: No problem with fresh cells (12.58v total).

It's funny, I originally asked for these cells with the intention of using an 1185 in my M6, but now that I've built this 1185 Prince, I probably won't even bother with the M6. I'd still like to figue out a compact 1111 set-up, and I'm waiting for a P91 to arrive. What next... ?
_


----------



## RyanA

Nice, my light hasn't arrived yet. I was kinda hoping to beat you to it. :engage fist shake emoticon:


----------



## Nite

RyanA said:


> Nice, my light hasn't arrived yet. I was kinda hoping to beat you to it. :engage fist shake emoticon:



Soon now, very soon.

Santas coming for ya!


----------



## RyanA

Nite said:


> Soon now, very soon.
> 
> Santas coming for ya!



I forgot all about that. I'm still interested.
Shoot me a PM.


----------



## Nite

Mark- "For 3 IMR Cell Setups:
1. IMR-M6, M3T Lamp Assembly, 1000 Lumens, 3350 K, 25 Hours Life. (For SF M3 Turboheads)"

I have heard of people proposing to run this off three IMR 16340, is this possible? whats the runtime?

This would work better with 3x18650 i think.

MDOCOD would know.

I was thinking if I need 3x18650 for a KT SF turbohead, i think It will fit in a KT2


----------



## william lafferty

gswitter said:


> Update: I'd still like to figue out a compact 1111 set-up, and I'm waiting for a P91 to arrive. What next... ?
> [/I]



Hello gs:

Some 1111 possibilities:

2C Mag with a Lighthound extender (12.95) or a deep tailcap and 2 AW C cells

An M6 with extender and 2xAW C cells

The Big Leef setup with 2xAW C cells


----------



## mdocod

Nite said:


> Mark- "For 3 IMR Cell Setups:
> 1. IMR-M6, M3T Lamp Assembly, 1000 Lumens, 3350 K, 25 Hours Life. (For SF M3 Turboheads)"
> 
> I have heard of people proposing to run this off three IMR 16340, is this possible? whats the runtime?
> 
> This would work better with 3x18650 i think.
> 
> MDOCOD would know.
> 
> I was thinking if I need 3x18650 for a KT SF turbohead, i think It will fit in a KT2



It could be run just fine in an M3T style build on 3xIMR16340 cells for about 9 minutes. I'm estimating it will be a ~10.8V (+/- 0.3V), 3.0A (+/- 0.2A) bulb. It would certainly perform better on a set of 6 IMR16340s in an M6 stock battery adapter, or on 3xIMR18650s. It could also probably be run reasonably well on 3xLiCo 17670 or larger cells. Might prove to be a nice alternative to the 1185 for folks running 3 LiCo 17670s in their M6. We'll just have to wait and see how these bulbs pan out. 

The IMR-M6 will fit fine in the KT2 style turbo-head, and the millennium turbo-head found with the KT4, M3T, M4, and M6. 

Eric


----------



## gswitter

william lafferty said:


> Some 1111 possibilities:
> 
> 2C Mag with a Lighthound extender (12.95) or a deep tailcap and 2 AW C cells
> 
> An M6 with extender and 2xAW C cells
> 
> The Big Leef setup with 2xAW C cells


I've tried all those. I want a 2x IMR16340 1111 in as small a host as possible. The best options I can come up with currently are an FM 2x18500 Prince with a 123 dummy cell, a Mag 2C with a spacer/dummy or a two cell Surefire with a KT turbohead. I want something that's actually pocketable.


----------



## shomie911

gswitter said:


> I've tried all those. I want a 2x IMR16340 1111 in as small a host as possible. The best options I can come up with currently are an FM 2x18500 Prince with a 123 dummy cell, a Mag 2C with a spacer/dummy or a two cell Surefire with a KT turbohead. I want something that's actually pocketable.



Anything with a Turbohead isn't going to be pocketable.

I've tried. :laughing:


----------



## Nite

mdocod said:


> It could be run just fine in an M3T style build on 3xIMR16340 cells for about 9 minutes. I'm estimating it will be a ~10.8V (+/- 0.3V), 3.0A (+/- 0.2A) bulb.
> 
> It would certainly perform better on a set of 6 IMR16340s in an M6 stock battery adapter, or on 3xIMR18650s.
> 
> It could also probably be run reasonably well on 3xLiCo 17670 or larger cells. Might prove to be a nice alternative to the 1185 for folks running 3 LiCo 17670s in their M6. We'll just have to wait and see how these bulbs pan out.
> 
> The IMR-M6 will fit fine in the KT2 style turbo-head, and the millennium turbo-head found with the KT4, M3T, M4, and M6.
> 
> Eric



6 cells? the IMR can handle a large range of voltage? Your including the sag on 6 tiny cells...so then 4 cells would work better than 3 in 16340 size in a long body?

So I also just realized I wont need a soft starter as the bulb is designed to take it?


----------



## shomie911

Nite said:


> 6 cells? the IMR can handle a large range of voltage? Your including the sag on 6 tiny cells...so then 4 cells would work better than 3 in 16340 size in a long body?
> 
> So I also just realized I wont need a soft starter as the bulb is designed to take it?



No.

The M6 pack is the equivalent of running 3 cells. It's a parallel setup.


----------



## Nite

shomie911 said:


> No.
> 
> The M6 pack is the equivalent of running 3 cells. It's a parallel setup.



whoa i had no idea! I have never held an M6 or seen one in real life.

thats the stock pack? explains alot.


----------



## JasonC8301

SF C3 with KT2 turbohead is pocketable in a rather large jacket pocket, but it does protrude a lot. That light also weighs a good amount and I have scaled back. I wanted something that will be of decent size (ie not too small like an E1e or E1B) but not too big (C3 with stock bezel, or Pelican M3 3370 (3 X CR123.))

I have 2 X IMR 16340's and 2 X Lumens Factory EO-9 lamps on the way to me for an empty SF 6P. 

Here is a picture of my C3/KT2 head combo along with a 6P, G2, Mag 2C with Fivemega 18650 extender (2X), and Pelican M3 3370.


----------



## william lafferty

gswitter said:


> I've tried all those. I want a 2x IMR16340 1111 in as small a host as possible. The best options I can come up with currently are an FM 2x18500 Prince with a 123 dummy cell, a Mag 2C with a spacer/dummy or a two cell Surefire with a KT turbohead. I want something that's actually pocketable.



OK gs, let's try again. Here's a picture:








This is a Mag head and a Big Leef C body with a one cell extension housing 2 x IMR16340's. It's a nice setup. Probably pocketable, at least in big pockets.

If you like this setup, you will need to have Mac or someone make you a bipin adapter that screws into the Leef Mag adapter. The Leef Mag adapter (which allows you to screw a Mag head on the Big Leef body) is just an empty shell, and it needs a screw-in platform on which to mount the bi-pin holder. I have one made by Mac and he did his ususal excellent work.

bill


----------



## Owen

mdocod said:


> It could be run just fine in an M3T style build on 3xIMR16340 cells for about 9 minutes. I'm estimating it will be a ~10.8V (+/- 0.3V), 3.0A (+/- 0.2A) bulb.


Shoot, I might buy this just for a toy. It just hit me that it's rated for 1000 bulb lumens, as opposed to 380 for the HO-M3T that I normally use(fairly frequently, but usually for just a few seconds at a time). That should be pretty spectacular...

I ordered a couple of P91s to try on 2xIMR16340, too


----------



## gswitter

william lafferty said:


> OK gs, let's try again. Here's a picture:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is a Mag head and a Big Leef C body with a one cell extension housing 2 x IMR16340's. It's a nice setup. Probably pocketable, at least in big pockets.


Mag C & D heads are too big for my pockets.

I want something closer to the size of a E2e or 6P. The FM 2x18500 Prince is the closest I can build right now, but that requires a dummy cell. I want something that size or smaller with an actual 2x123 tube.


----------



## Nite

gswitter said:


> Mag C & D heads are too big for my pockets.
> 
> I want something closer to the size of a E2e or 6P. The FM 2x18500 Prince is the closest I can build right now, but that requires a dummy cell. I want something that size or smaller with an actual 2x123 tube.



All you need is a 6P two IMR 16340 and a P91 or D26 FM 1794 in a FM 1x18650


----------



## jimhoff

Nite said:


> All you need is a 6P two IMR 16340 and a P91 or D26 FM 1794 in a FM 1x18650



Wild guess, how many SF lumens would these do?


----------



## JasonC8301

gswitter said:


> Mag C & D heads are too big for my pockets.
> 
> I want something closer to the size of a E2e or 6P. The FM 2x18500 Prince is the closest I can build right now, but that requires a dummy cell. I want something that size or smaller with an actual 2x123 tube.



If the Mag head is too big for your pockets, don't even try the KT1/2 turbo head. 

If you want something close to an E2e size or 6P, get either a E2e or 6P, then mod it to suit your needs. 

LF EO-9 and 2 IMR 16340's in a 6P seems like a decent pocket rocket without having too short of a run time. 

I was tempted to go with an EO-2R (high output lamp) for my E2e, but I am not tempted to have the Z57 clickie go bad on me and then spend ~$40 to get a new one. I wish I would have kept my E2e with Z52 LOTC.


----------



## JasonC8301

jimhoff said:


> Wild guess, how many SF lumens would these do?



Jimhoff - the SF P91 is listed as doing 200 lumens on Surefire's website but they are conservative about their #'s. I am not sure about FM1794. 

I can't give you integrating sphere numbers but I can give you an estimation of what my eyes see (as I do have a 6P and G2 host, the SF P90, P91, and the LF EO-9 lamps (well the LF lamps are on the way, along with the cells.))


----------



## Nite

jimhoff said:


> Wild guess, how many SF lumens would these do?


https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/161536

MDs Lithium-Ion > Incandescent guide + compatability/comparison chart

Cell configuration: 2xIMR16340

(these are rougher estimates than most of the others in the chart, but should be close enough to accurate for comparisons sake)

Bulb Options:
LF D26 EO-9: 15W, 240 - 110 lumen in 15 minutes
SF P90: 9W, 145 - 80 lumen in 25 minutes
*SF P91: 20W, 300 - 125 lumen in 10 minutes*
G&P G90: 9W, 145 - 80 lumen in 25 minutes
G&P D26 7.4V "DX 10W xenon": 9W, 145 - 80 lumen in 25 minutes
G&P D26 7.4V "DX 15W xenon": 10.5W, 165 - 90 lumen in 22 minutes
Pathfinder P90: 10W, 155 - 90 lumen in 23 minutes
WE D26 9V: 10W, 165 - 90 lumen in 22 minutes
Pila GL3 LA: 10W, 165 - 90 lumen in 22 minutes
*FM1794 in FM bi-pin D26: 22+W, 350 - 150 lumen in 8 minutes*


----------



## JasonC8301

Thank you for the post Nite! Looks like I gotta keep an eye out for the cells and bulb for dimming.


----------



## brunt_sp

LF IMR LAs are now on their website but not yet available to buy online,
http://www.lumensfactory.com/new_products.php


----------



## jimhoff

JasonC8301 said:


> I was tempted to go with an EO-2R (high output lamp) for my E2e, but I am not tempted to have the Z57 clickie go bad on me and then spend ~$40 to get a new one. I wish I would have kept my E2e with Z52 LOTC.




The clickie on my E2D is holding up with the EO-2R lamp and IMR 16340's after a month and maybe 500 clicks. If it fails I will deal with it by installing an upgrade


----------



## JasonC8301

That is good to hear. Thanks! Depending on how well the EO-9 and IMR16340 run, I might just make my E2e a pocket rocket also.



jimhoff said:


> The clickie on my E2D is holding up with the EO-2R lamp and IMR 16340's after a month and maybe 500 clicks. If it fails I will deal with it by installing an upgrade


----------



## naked2

JasonC8301 said:


> That is good to hear. Thanks! Depending on how well the EO-9 and IMR16340 run, I might just make my E2e a pocket rocket also.


To use the EO-9 in an E series light you would need an E to C adapter and a C bezel, or you can just wait for LF to release the IMR-E2 LA @ 350 lumens. It will "drop right in" your E2e.


----------



## JasonC8301

naked2 - I apologize for not being clear. I have an empty SF 6P host to drop the EO-9 and 2 X IMR16340's into. 

I was referring to LF's EO-E2R bulb for the E2e when talking to jimhoff. I guess I have a fear of burning up the Z57 clickie tailcap. 

I have a 3 X CR123 E series tube that I have been wanting to stick the KT head on and run it with the IMR cells and the MN21 but not right now due to other projects.

Thanks for the concern though and preventing me from having the wrong parts/set-up.


----------



## naked2

Somewhere else in this thread, or in one of the other 4 or 5 IMR threads between here and CPFMP that I'm subscribed to, mdocod talked about the IMR-9 and 2x IMR16340s and Z59 clicky being "compatible", even though LF says don't do it.

But here's my theory:
Forget the IMR-9 for this comparison. Since an EO-9 and the yet to be released IMR-E2 will probably draw the same current, and the EO-9/2x IMR16340/Z59 setup has already been proven, an IMR-E2/2x IMR16340/Z57 setup _should _be feasable.

I'll probably be trying it anyway, since I don't have a stock Z57. I have a stock twisty LOTC retrofitted with a $10 McClicky, and if it fails, I have the stock twisty guts to reinstall, and I'll be out less than the cost of *ANY* E series replacement LA.


----------



## Nite

naked2 said:


> Somewhere else in this thread, or in one of the other 4 or 5 IMR threads between here and CPFMP that I'm subscribed to, mdocod talked about the IMR-9 and 2x IMR16340s and Z59 clicky being "compatible", even though LF says don't do it.
> 
> But here's my theory:
> Forget the IMR-9 for this comparison. Since an EO-9 and the yet to be released IMR-E2 will probably draw the same current, and the EO-9/2x IMR16340/Z59 setup has already been proven, an IMR-E2/2x IMR16340/Z57 setup _should _be feasable.
> 
> I'll probably be trying it anyway, since I don't have a stock Z57. I have a stock twisty LOTC retrofitted with a $10 McClicky, and if it fails, I have the stock twisty guts to reinstall, and I'll be out less than the cost of *ANY* E series replacement LA.



could you please provide the links to the 4 or 5 other threads?

also, I am using 2x IMR 16340 to drive a P91 and a FM1794.

The switch works fine, my Z59s, all of them.

I had to buy a Soft Starter bcuz it worked so well It would insta flash the 1794, one was enuff.


----------



## jimhoff

naked2 said:


> or you can just wait for LF to release the IMR-E2 LA @ 350 lumens. It will "drop right in" your E2e.



OK so my E2D has the LF EO-E2R bulb at 150 bulb lumens and I love it. If I get one of these IMR E2 at 350 lumens will my life get even better? Can I use the stock clickie in the following fashion: unscrew it, click it on and leave it, screw tight to turn on lamp, unscrew to turn off lamp. Or is there a drop in upgrade that will allow me to keep the deadly E2D stock tailpiece and maybe add a feature?


----------



## naked2

Nite said:


> could you please provide the links to the 4 or 5 other threads?
> 
> also, I am using 2x IMR 16340 to drive a P91 and a FM1794.
> 
> The switch works fine, my Z59s, all of them.
> 
> I had to buy a Soft Starter bcuz it worked so well It would insta flash the 1794, one was enuff.


 
Yeah, I'll look up all the links and post them here, but I have a question about flashing a 1794. I just got mine with a FM D26 bi pin socket (BTW, I really like the LS, thanks!), and also a FM SF C head, 2C cell body, but I don't have any C Li-ion cells yet.

For now, I've been using it in an UltraFire WF-501C 2x 18500 host with 2x UltraFire 18500 1600mAh protected cells. First I tried it with 2 cells @ 4.05V ea. for a total of 8.1V; worked perfect, first click. Then I tried it with 2x 4.1V= 8.2V; first click, ran for 22minutes.

Should I not risk going any higher than 8.2V? Or would 2x 4.15= 8.3V be fine?


----------



## naked2

jimhoff said:


> OK so my E2D has the LF EO-E2R bulb at 150 bulb lumens and I love it. If I get one of these IMR E2 at 350 lumens will my life get even better? Can I use the stock clickie in the following fashion: unscrew it, click it on and leave it, screw tight to turn on lamp, unscrew to turn off lamp. Or is there a drop in upgrade that will allow me to keep the deadly E2D stock tailpiece and maybe add a feature?


I think you _might _be able to use it with an IMR-E2 the way it is, at your own risk, of course!

I'm not familiar with the innards of your tailcap, but the McClicky _might_ fit in there. But as far as something fancy, like AW's soft start switches for SF C series tailcaps with extra features, I don't know of anyting. But to be safe, you could try to find a stock black twisty LOTC and use it, or see if its guts fit into your Defender tailcap.


----------



## Nite

naked2 said:


> Yeah, I'll look up all the links and post them here, but I have a question about flashing a 1794. I just got mine with a FM D26 bi pin socket (BTW, I really like the LS, thanks!), and also a FM SF C head, 2C cell body, but I don't have any C Li-ion cells yet.
> 
> For now, I've been using it in an UltraFire WF-501C 2x 18500 host with 2x UltraFire 18500 1600mAh protected cells. First I tried it with 2 cells @ 4.05V ea. for a total of 8.1V; worked perfect, first click. Then I tried it with 2x 4.1V= 8.2V; first click, ran for 22minutes.
> 
> Should I not risk going any higher than 8.2V? Or would 2x 4.15= 8.3V be fine?



the bigger the batteries the less their voltage sags under the strain of the 22 watts of a Fm1794.

So If you charge two C cells or two 18650 to 4.2 volts I can guarantee you an instaflash.

But as you go down in size the cell sags faster, like with the 18500. You could charge them all the way to 4.2, let them settle down to 4.16 after 12 hours, and Maybe they wont flash the bulb. Maybe. 

When I was using 18500s I was babysitting them and pulling them at 4.11 or as soon as I remembered. There were times I forgot and they fully charged, but then id pair the cells with other cells that werent fresh off the charger. Im sure you can charge to 4.15 then get away with it depending on how long you let the cells calm down afterwards, so if you have two pairs, always use the spare pair first, the fresh ones need to settle.
your pushing the limits of the bulb tho when you first turn it on..so try it before you leave the house.
if it works then , your ok until you recharge. remember 4.11 makes the cells triple their lifetime.


----------



## naked2

I think I'll stick to 8.2V, I'm chicken! Anyways, here's some more IMR threads:

*AW IMR-123 cells performance?*, by gunga.
*IMR and surefire lights*, by Youfoundnemo.
*Softstart / 3 level Incan Driver Switch For SF P/C/M series Tail Cap*, by AW

These two are at CPFMP:
***Lumens Factory** New IMR Series and other New Products.*, by [email protected]
*IMR16340 / IMR18650*, by AW


----------



## Nite

naked2 said:


> I think I'll stick to 8.2V, I'm chicken! Anyways, here's some more IMR threads:
> 
> *AW IMR-123 cells performance?*, by gunga.
> *IMR and surefire lights*, by Youfoundnemo.
> *Softstart / 3 level Incan Driver Switch For SF P/C/M series Tail Cap*, by AW
> 
> These two are at CPFMP:
> ***Lumens Factory** New IMR Series and other New Products.*, by [email protected]
> *IMR16340 / IMR18650*, by AW



Just add a soft start


----------



## pete7226

Nite, more good news, I just charged my newer AW C cells to 4.2, and hot off the charger they did NOT flash my FM1794 in FM's 2xC cell body. That was 8.4 in series. I would double check your charger if you are flashing this bulb or a p91 for that matter with C cells or 18650's.


Batts are about 3 months old and have less than 5 charges on them


----------



## naked2

This is good news, as I have a spare 1794, except I don't want to have to use it 'til I've gotten at least 10 hours of good clean fun out of my first one! :devil:


----------



## maxspeeds

* IMR Bulbs are NOW available at lumensfactory! Come and get 'em! :wave:*

http://www.lumensfactory.com/cart.php?cat_id=9


----------



## jimhoff

I just ordered the IMR E2 lamp. 350 bulb lumens from my E2Doo: I'll post when I get it. Thanks for the $1.85 ship to Alaska from Hong Kong, LF:twothumbs


----------



## JasonC8301

Just recieved 2 X IMR16340's and 2 X LF EO-9 bulbs from lighthound! Wasn't expecting it to arrive today. I have the cells in my charger right now. Beam shots tonight.


----------



## Nite

Unhappy, a risk i didnt know about.

I just bought 2 pair IMR 18650

Bodies

150$ for turbohead / MN21

Now i find out if your IMR cells hit 140 Deg F they start to fail,(60C) over 150 they CAN burst and leak toxic chemicals out and destroy your light.

Not just "fail"

DO you know how quickly a Lower powered bulb and LiCo cells get up to 150 degrees right behind the lamp in cell #1? in the summer? try a few minutes! How are we to protect cell 1 by the bulb from this disaster scenario?

(I know of some major retailers who will only sell these cells and lamps with MAJOR warnings)


----------



## Owen

Crap. I just put in for a body and bezel for sale on CMP to use with the 16340s. Did that happen to you just now, and where did the 140 degree number come from?


----------



## Nite

Owen said:


> Crap. I just put in for a body and bezel for sale on CMP to use with the 16340s. Did that happen to you just now, and where did the 140 degree number come from?



no, no problems yet.

i dont see a problem with the 16340 

im a little worried about the heath of a 18650 cell behind a 1000 lumen bulb tho.


----------



## BSBG

Nite said:


> Unhappy, a risk i did know about.
> 
> 
> Now i find out if your IMR cells hit 140 Deg F they start to fail,(60C) over 150 they CAN burst and leak toxic chemicals out and destroy your light.



Can you cite a source for this, or are you just repeating something a guy told a friend of your sister's boyfriend at 31 Flavors last night?


----------



## Owen

Yeah, Nite, you made it sound like you'd cooked off a battery and ruined your light.


----------



## StarHalo

Nite said:


> Now i find out if your IMR cells hit 140 Deg F they start to fail,(60C) over 150 they CAN burst and leak toxic chemicals out and destroy your light.



What battery type can withstand 140+ F degrees?


----------



## Nite

StarHalo said:


> What battery type can withstand 140+ F degrees?



I thought laptop batteries, the one under the hood of my car, etc


----------



## Nite

BSBG said:


> Can you cite a source for this, or are you just repeating something a guy told a friend of your sister's boyfriend at 31 Flavors last night?



I will quote my source but I will not cite him without permission, which I just asked for.

Lets just say he is a very very reliable source. An expert in the field. 

_"I am a bit nervous about them, because if you just leave them running they ruin the batteries."

-Snip edit-

"The problem is that the IMR cells are not very temperature resistant. If they get too hot they break and the fluid leaks out, ruining them."

signed by : my sister's boyfriend at 31 Flavors
_


----------



## QtrHorse

I'm a little nervous now about these batteries with the storage temp only being 70F. I wonder if AW made a mistake in quoting those termperatures.

Storage Temperature : -20 to 25 degree C


----------



## Bullzeyebill

See this data sheet for the IMR18650E. Might clear up a few things, or bring up some issues. http://www.molienergy.com/pdf/IMR18650E.pdf

Bill


----------



## naked2

Nice link; is that what's under AW's red label, or are his from a different mfr.?


----------



## Bullzeyebill

naked2 said:


> Nice link; is that what's under AW's red label, or are his from a different mfr.?



Not sure, but capacity specs are the same. It would be good if AW used those cells, made by a reputable company. 140F is recommended discharge temperature limit, but probably some built in leeway there.

Bill


----------



## naked2

Are those cells available directly from that company?

Thanks, Tony


----------



## Bullzeyebill

Not sure, but go ahead and do a google and see what you come up with. I'm hitting the sack.

Bill


----------



## mdocod

The cells AW is using are probably not made by Emoli. In fact, AWs cells test out with higher capacity than the Emoli brand, based on LuxLuthor's testing. It also wouldn't make much sense to have Molicel (in canada) make cells for someone who has contacts in asia.


----------



## AW

*All lithium based batteries have an max. operating temp. of 60 degree C. You will find the same operating temp. spec. on Emoli, A123, Sanyo, Samsung batteries with LiCo / LiFePO4 / LiMn chemistries. The electrolyte will start to degrade when exceeding the max. operating temp. Reaching higher temperature conditions ( either from external sources or cell discharging / charging ), the liquid electrolyte will expand and pressure will build up inside the cell. When the pressure build up is approaching the safety threshold, the safety valve will disconnect separating the anode / cathode ( cell dies showing 0 Volt ). If the pressure keeps rising, the laser welded vent will open and release gas/electrolyte to prevent an explosion. The common observation you 'll see is leaking of electrolyte when a vent occurs. If it was a mild vent, leaking may come after a day or two.

A safety vent/ mechanical thermal protection is a standard feature of all my lithium secondary batteries.

The IMR cells will not reach above 60 degree C even when discharged @ 8 - 10C by themselves. The heat from outside sources such as lamp, lamp assembly spring contact or flashlight body is something you may have to consider when using them in a high power incan light that will generate tremendous amount of heat. *

*In a lab regulated oven test, the safety disconnect triggers at 80 degree C after 3 minutes. The vent opens at 100 degree C after 5 minutes.* 

*The storage temperature range of -20 to 25 degree C ( 40% charged ) is the optimum where you 'll recover 90+% capacity after 1 year of storage. Storing at 40 degree C will get you ~80% capacity after 1 year. At 60 degree C, you 'll get ~70% after 1 year.*


----------



## QtrHorse

Thank you very much for explaining this AW. 

I was hoping the lab tests actually used higher temperatures for testing but you never know. Thank you for explaining the storage temp as well. I thought it was for the explosion prevention from heat, not related to the stored power and the rate of disscharge.


----------



## Nite

mdocod said:


> The cells AW is using are probably not made by Emoli. In fact, AWs cells test out with higher capacity than the Emoli brand, based on LuxLuthor's testing. It also wouldn't make much sense to have Molicel (in canada) make cells for someone who has contacts in asia.



Dont AWs cells have a higher MAH reserve of power? higher than pictured Emoli

oh yeah you said they do in testing, and i see higher in specs
thanks MD

thanks AW.


----------



## mdocod

Thanks for the update on that AW, that clears a lot up


----------



## OrlandoLights

*IMR 16340 Setups, which bulbs?*

The 6P got here yesterday, I immediately ed the P60 bulb. Guess it can't handle 2 x 16340. Luckily, the IMR-9 from LF is on the way. 

I would like to get the FiveMega module with some bulbs, but I can't figure out which ones to get for 2 x IMR 16340 in a 6P. Can someone suggest which bulbs of his to get, or any others that are 1.5 (I think I have the size right) that would work with this combination?


----------



## Bullzeyebill

*Re: IMR 16340 Setups, which bulbs?*



OrlandoLights said:


> The 6P got here yesterday, I immediately ed the P60 bulb. Guess it can't handle 2 x 16340. Luckily, the IMR-9 from LF is on the way.
> 
> I would like to get the FiveMega module with some bulbs, but I can't figure out which ones to get for 2 x IMR 16340 in a 6P. Can someone suggest which bulbs of his to get, or any others that are 1.5 (I think I have the size right) that would work with this combination?



Search for Fivemega's threads. Click on his user name and go to statistics and click on threads. You will find his selling threads. Saying this to encourage you to look for info on CPF.

Bill


----------



## OrlandoLights

*Re: IMR 16340 Setups, which bulbs?*



Bullzeyebill said:


> Search for Fivemega's threads. Click on his user name and go to statistics and click on threads. You will find his selling threads. Saying this to encourage you to look for info on CPF.
> 
> Bill



Thanks for the encouragement, Bill. I've had FiveMega's sales thread bookmarked, and have been following it, for a week or so. Also have been following mdocod's thread: https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/161536 

Maybe I overlooked something, or just don't understand the terminology being used (probable, since I'm new to Incans), but I am still unclear about how to know what bulbs of FiveMega's or other 1.5 bulbs to get for a 6P and 2 x IMR 16340. Is there an IMR 16340 and 1.5 bulb compatibility list somewhere? I am assuming I can't go by which 1.5 bulbs work with regular 123s, since IMRs are high-drain.


----------



## naked2

I know Bill want's you to look, but I can't help myself! For a 6P and 2x IMR16340 and a FM D26 bi pin socket, you can't do any better than a FM 1794 bulb. The only other thing that _might_ have more output is the just released IMR-9 from Lumens Factory (where the author of this thread is from!).

The reason I say _might_, is that I haven't seen any reviews of it yet.


----------



## OrlandoLights

naked2 said:


> I know Bill want's you to look, but I can't help myself! For a 6P and 2x IMR16340 and a FM D26 bi pin socket, you can't do any better than a FM 1794 bulb. The only other thing that _might_ have more output is the just released IMR-9 from Lumens Factory (where the author of this thread is from!).
> 
> The reason I say _might_, is that I haven't seen any reviews of it yet.





Thanks naked2, very helpful. Thought the FM 1794 would take more power than I'm using, but I'll try that one. Edit: I now see that I had misread posts #94-#104 on this thread, where there was a mix-up about 18650 and 16340 with the 1794. Thanks for the suggestion.

Yes, I know Bill wants me to look. And I followed his advice, I looked again at the threads I've been reading for almost 2 weeks now.

I think part of the problem is that I'm coming from LED lights, and there they are specific about which batteries can be used with which lights. Maybe with Incans there's more leeway, just so long as you don't go too high and burn out the bulb.

Lumens Factory made it easy: I could see right away what module to get, the IMR-9. So I ordered it a couple of days ago.


----------



## mdocod

Hi OrlandoLights,

I don't think there is really a list anywhere of all the T1.5 bulbs you could use..

Matching bulbs to batteries is tricky business sometime, the world of LEDs can be simpler in many ways because most lights are either boost or buck regulated (a few are boost/buck) so you usually have a pretty wide selection of battery options available. 

With bulbs, what you are trying to do, is match a bulb to a power source, such that it will be driven hard, without being really un-reliable. Most of the super powerful mag-mods that are built for sheer enjoyment are targeting ~5 hours bulb life give or take. For most configurations in a tactical light, you'll want to shoot for ~10-40 hours estimated bulb life...

There's a lot of in-depth stuff to consider to make this happen, but I'll try to simplify. You are using a pair of 3.7V cells, so you are looking for a bulb that runs with ~10-40 hours bulb life at ~7.4V. Consider that some bulbs run at higher current, and therefor will have a lower operating voltage on a particular cell configuration as a result of voltage sag of the cells. Also consider, that with a higher life rating on a bulb, it's going to require more voltage than the rated voltage to drive it within that ideal range. So a 6V bulb rated ~100 hours is usually a pretty good candidate to drive to ~7.4V, it results in a new target bulb life around 10 hours and a nice bright white output. A 6V 2000 hour bulb on the other hand, would re-rate to ~200 hours on a 7.4V battery, and would not really be all that impressive or worth running in this configuration. 

If you read the li-ion/incan guide, then you are likely aware that CR123s are not 3V cells when loaded, that most "9V" type tactical lamp assemblies are actually ~7.5V bulbs (give or take). (FYI your blown P60 was a ~5V bulb). With that in mind, one option is to run the bulb from a streamlight TL-3. It will give you a ~25+ minutes runtime and probably produce a pretty nice beam. Won't be a super-screamer as far as output goes, it's about the same as an SR-9 or P90 or G90 etc etc.

As already mentioned, the 1794 is certainly an option, and is probably going to be the brightest bulb that can be run in a D26 application. It's rated 630 bulb lumen at 7V, it's a real screamer.

Finding a large selection of T-1.5 bulbs out there can be tough. Here's the few from carley (that I can think of) that would work for your application:

Carley lamp ideas for 2xIMR16340 cells:
#928, 7.1V, 25 hour: ~200 lumen diminishing to ~100 lumen in ~25 minutes.
#819, 7.5V, 20 hour: ~160 lumen diminishing to ~90 lumen in ~40 minutes.


----------



## OrlandoLights

Thanks for taking the time again to answer my stumbling questions. Volts/amps/watts is like Greek to me, so your straightforward explanations help a lot.

If I understand this, a 6v bulb will work with 2 x IMR 16340s, even though fully charged they can be 8.4v. And that will provide good light so long as the bulb isn't built for really long run-time.

Since throw and extreme brightness aren't what I'm looking for, but rather a warm flood beam for walks outdoors, I will try the TL-3 bulb and the 2 Carley bulbs you listed. I will get FiveMega's HS reflector for those, and use some diffuser material over the LF IMR-9 to get a flood beam.

Thanks again.
Charles


----------



## Stage Tech

Anybody got their New IMR lamps ?? comments ??
Also , who makes this mighty "1794" 630 lumens lamp ? I can't find the manufacturer or pictures of the LA.
Thanks
Julian


----------



## foxtrot29

Just ordered a pair of IMR 16340 batteries and the IMR-E2 (7.4V, 350 Lumens).

Gonna try this setup in my E2D with stock tailcap. I know it's a clicky, but I don't know of a twisty available for this light. Lumens factory website seems to say it's ok, but not for extended use.,,,

This should be the pocket rocket from hell!


----------



## naked2

Stage Tech said:


> Anybody got their New IMR lamps ?? comments ??


I would especially like to here how the IMR-E2 compares to the TL-3!


Stage Tech said:


> Also , who makes this mighty "1794" 630 lumens lamp ? I can't find the manufacturer or pictures of the LA.
> Thanks
> Julian


CPFer fivemega sells them. Here is his sales thread.


----------



## foxtrot29

naked2 said:


> I would especially like to here how the IMR-E2 compares to the TL-3!
> CPFer fivemega sells them. Here is his sales thread.



I've the the IMR-E2 on the way for my E2D... I just hope it doesn't make the stock clicky go


----------



## Stage Tech

I was thinking about try and use the IMR setup with the Click tailcap from my M2 , but you know , since Mark reccomended so much , and in my Job I can't have an option of light failure during use , not at least from my own negligence in not follow the manufacturer recomendations , so I'll try out but for my real use , I'll be using the Original twist tailcap as described by Mark.


----------



## foxtrot29

Does anyone know -- is there a twist tailcap switch for the e-series Surefire lights? I've never heard of one...


----------



## gswitter

Z52/Z53/Z54

Used to be stock on the E1e and E2e.

I didn't even realize these had been discontinued. I probably wouldn't have converted mine to clickies if I had.


----------



## BSBG

foxtrot29 said:


> Does anyone know -- is there a twist tailcap switch for the e-series Surefire lights? I've never heard of one...



Yes, there is. It came on the early E series and was replaced by the clicky, I forget the numerical designation but I'm sure someone will know.


----------



## jimhoff

BSBG said:


> Yes, there is. It came on the early E series and was replaced by the clicky, I forget the numerical designation but I'm sure someone will know.



Can we rebuild our E clickies stronger - I have an E2D and want to keep the deadly crenelated tailcap.


----------



## foxtrot29

jimhoff said:


> Can we rebuild our E clickies stronger - I have an E2D and want to keep the deadly crenelated tailcap.



Maybe the McClicky? I dunno... I'd really like to know as well.


----------



## foxtrot29

I was just told by a sales rep at Lumens Factory that the stock clicky on the E2D would be fine with the IMR setup, just to watch the heat and use for short bursts only. Only issue is the spring shortening due to excessive heat -- but the electronics don't fry.


----------



## jimhoff

I'll be the guinea pig as for the 'short bursts' thing. My lights stay on sometimes and I welcome magic smoke 





foxtrot29 said:


> I was just told by a sales rep at Lumens Factory that the stock clicky on the E2D would be fine with the IMR setup, just to watch the heat and use for short bursts only. Only issue is the spring shortening due to excessive heat -- but the electronics don't fry.


----------



## foxtrot29

jimhoff said:


> I'll be the guinea pig as for the 'short bursts' thing. My lights stay on sometimes and I welcome magic smoke




Ha, it says not to leave on for more than 10min -- the runtime on two IMR (cr123 size) is only 10-15 min anyway...


----------



## Outdoors Fanatic

Stage Tech said:


> Anybody got their New IMR lamps ?? comments ??
> Also , who makes this mighty "1794" 630 lumens lamp ? I can't find the manufacturer or pictures of the LA.
> Thanks
> Julian


*Welch Allyn :*

http://www.walamp.com/lpd/webstore/searchbylamp.tpl?SKU=17345948104771&cart=12313587891595289


----------



## mdocod

Outdoors Fanatic said:


> *Welch Allyn :*
> 
> http://www.walamp.com/lpd/webstore/searchbylamp.tpl?SKU=17345948104771&cart=12313587891595289



I'm pretty sure the 1794 is a custom bulb made for FM by carley lamp.


----------



## edc3

I've got an extra Wolf Eyes Sniper body that I'm not using and I'd like to use it with some IMR batteries. From what I've read, others are using this body as a host. Would EO-9 or P91 be a good LA for this? From MD's guide it looks like these would be similar in output. Would another lamp bring me more incan fun for my money? Thanks.


----------



## Nite

edc3 said:


> I've got an extra Wolf Eyes Sniper body that I'm not using and I'd like to use it with some IMR batteries. From what I've read, others are using this body as a host. Would EO-9 or P91 be a good LA for this? From MD's guide it looks like these would be similar in output. Would another lamp bring me more incan fun for my money? Thanks.



Youve just selected two LiCo Lion LAs for use with new IMR chemistry. A total waste as IMR has 33% less power...in fact it wont work the IMRs will blow those bulbs.

IF you goto the lumens factory website, select the IMR-EO9, 500 lumens..in new products..buy there or if you want it faster order from Lighthound in USA


----------



## edc3

I'm looking at those two lamps for three reasons:

1. I don't know what I'm doing. :shrug:

2. The only switch I have for my Sniper is a clicky and apparently clicky is a no-no for the LF IMR lamps.

3. Based on MD's 2xIMR16340 Cell configuration they looked like the most interesting. 

I'm an addict on a budget this year, so I'm trying to make use of the bodies I already have and so I'm a bit limited in my options. Any more ideas?


----------



## Nite

edc3 said:


> I'm looking at those two lamps for three reasons:
> 
> 1. I don't know what I'm doing. :shrug:
> 
> 2. The only switch I have for my Sniper is a clicky and apparently clicky is a no-no for the LF IMR lamps.
> 
> 3. Based on MD's 2xIMR16340 Cell configuration they looked like the most interesting.
> 
> I'm an addict on a budget this year, so I'm trying to make use of the bodies I already have and so I'm a bit limited in my options. Any more ideas?



Ahh you didnt say 16340 did you? those are fine! they sag alot more than the 18650 size! If you dont mind the 10 minute or less runtime, both FMs1794 680 lumens 22watts or SF P91, my favorite for self defense, both run fine on two IMR16340 and you need a bigger custom body..just a 2 cell SF body. or a 3 cell with spacer.

BTW..do not charge the IMR16340 all the way up to 4.21 volts and then use them fresh off the charger..the risk of instaflash is very hi. Try charging to 4.10 volts each if u need em right away..or let them rest overnight before using them.

I have flashed one FM 1794 by using two IMR16340 at 4.2 volts each Fresh off the charger.


----------



## Nite

also, dont worry about your switch with two IMR 16340 and a P91. Mines been fine.

I use AWs softstarter for bigger cells when they are fully charged just to drain a little voltage off so I dont blow all my bulbs.

if you want a LA that uses more power than a P91 or FM1794 then you risk blowing the switch in your clicky.

The rules for IMR 18650 and IMR 16340 are somewhat different.


----------



## edc3

Thanks for the info, Nite. From the reading that I've done, I think I'd prefer the P91, but since it's twice the cost of the EO-9 I'm sort of leaning that direction. We'll see.


----------



## Nite

edc3 said:


> Thanks for the info, Nite. From the reading that I've done, I think I'd prefer the P91, but since it's twice the cost of the EO-9 I'm sort of leaning that direction. We'll see.



Well the EO9 will handle that surge much better than a P91 as it was designed to be used with lion black LiCo cells and not the sf primary 123 cells like the P91. also its 380 lumens will give u more runtime than an IMR-EO9 500

the LF EO9 should be able to take 2x16340 fresh off the charger at 4.2volts...id have to ask you to ask MD about that for a definitive confirmation.


----------



## divine

I'm running an EO-9 with two IMR 16340's, it runs really nice.

*edit* I do use it sparingly, though.


----------



## edc3

divine said:


> I'm running an EO-9 with two IMR 16340's, it runs really nice.



Thanks, it's very tempting for <$20 shipped.


----------



## Paul5M

edc3 said:


> I've got an extra Wolf Eyes Sniper body that I'm not using and I'd like to use it with some IMR batteries. From what I've read, others are using this body as a host. Would EO-9 or P91 be a good LA for this? From MD's guide it looks like these would be similar in output. Would another lamp bring me more incan fun for my money? Thanks.


FYI: You can't use a SF lamp in your WE without a major mod


----------



## edc3

Paul5M said:


> FYI: You can't use a SF lamp in your WE without a major mod



I thought it was the the spring that needed to be removed. Well, that'll pretty much cinch it for the EO-9. Thanks!


----------



## naked2

The EO-9 and P91 are the same configuration, just that the EO-9 is aftermarket. If paul5M says a P91 won't work, then an EO-9 won't work either. LF makes LAs just for WE lights. I _think_ you need the EO-9L.


----------



## Nite

naked2 said:


> The EO-9 and P91 are the same configuration, just that the EO-9 is aftermarket. If paul5M says a P91 won't work, then an EO-9 won't work either. LF makes LAs just for WE lights. I _think_ you need the EO-9L.



thanks for catching my mistake

Im not familiar with his sniper series light.


----------



## naked2

I don't own any lights that take D36 size LAs either, I just noticed the EO-9L while browsing the LF website. Interesting thing though; it's rated at 450 lumens, and there's no disclaimer about excessive heat or using twisty only like on the IMR page, though they do give the standard warning about not using it for more than ten min. straight.

Sounds like a really nice LA, and makes me want a WE!


----------



## edc3

Looking at the EO-9L, it's a D36 lamp. The Sniper takes a D26. I've used an HO-4 with a 18650 in my Sniper. It had a removable spring for Surefire lights. I _think _that the EO-9 also has a removable spring. I have a couple of P61 lamps and their spring is not removable, so I assume the P91's spring is also not easily removable??? Now I'm REALLY confused. Borrowing from MD's compatibility chart:



> Cell configuration: 2xIMR16340
> 
> (these are rougher estimates than most of the others in the chart, but should be close enough to accurate for comparisons sake)
> 
> Bulb Options:
> LF D26 EO-9: 15W, 240 - 110 lumen in 15 minutes
> SF P90: 9W, 145 - 80 lumen in 25 minutes
> SF P91: 20W, 300 - 125 lumen in 10 minutes
> 
> Body Options:
> Wolf-Eyes 6 series sniper (non-turbo). +++


----------



## Nite

edc3 said:


> Looking at the EO-9L, it's a D36 lamp. The Sniper takes a D26. I've used an HO-4 with a 18650 in my Sniper. It had a removable spring for Surefire lights. I _think _that the EO-9 also has a removable spring. I have a couple of P61 lamps and their spring is not removable, so I assume the P91's spring is also not easily removable??? Now I'm REALLY confused. Borrowing from MD's compatibility chart:



Now I am also confused...if its a D26 why wont a P91 fit?
if MD says itll fit in that guide then it will.

thats my flashlight Bible


----------



## edc3

My P61 looks like it would fit - except for the spring. It's not a lot of money. I'll probably just buy one and see if it fits. I'll put my faith in the guide as well.


----------



## mdocod

I based that compatibility on reports of Paul_In_Maryland reporting having done the P91 in a sniper with a 1x18650 extension (with contact mod) on 2x18650 cells many years ago. I'm not sure if the lamp dropped right in or if he had to modify it somehow.... I'm wondering, maybe the outer spring has to be cut down shorter...


----------



## edc3

I could sacrifice one of my P61 lamps for science...


----------



## edc3

The P61 works in my Sniper, after removing the outer spring and trimming the inner spring. :naughty:


----------



## naked2

edc3 said:


> Looking at the EO-9L, it's a D36 lamp. The Sniper takes a D26. I've used an HO-4 with a 18650 in my Sniper.


Since I'm not familiar with WE lights, I didn't realize that the Sniper takes D26. Having said that, if the HO-4 fits your light, then the EO-9 will definitely fit.

Also, since you're wanting to use 2x IMR16340, you can use a FM D26 socket with a FM1794 bi pin bulb. It would cost more initially than the EO-9, but replacement buls are only ten bucks, and it is brighter than both the EO-9 _and_ P91. That's what I bought, after waiting too long for the IMR-9.


----------



## Paul5M

edc3 said:


> The P61 works in my Sniper, after removing the outer spring and trimming the inner spring. :naughty:


Yes, it's a one-way mod!
That P61 will no longer work in your 6P :shakehead


----------



## Paul5M

naked2 said:


> Since I'm not familiar with WE lights, I didn't realize that the Sniper takes D26. Having said that, if the HO-4 fits your light, then the EO-9 will definitely fit.
> 
> Also, since you're wanting to use 2x IMR16340, you can use a FM D26 socket with a FM1794 bi pin bulb. It would cost more initially than the EO-9, but replacement buls are only ten bucks, and it is brighter than both the EO-9 _and_ P91. That's what I bought, after waiting too long for the IMR-9.



 Any lamp that does not use outer spring is too long for the Sniper's shallow head


----------



## naked2

Paul5M said:


> Any lamp that does not use outer spring is too long for the Sniper's shallow head


I guess that makes the EO-9 the final candidate!


----------



## edc3

Paul5M said:


> Yes, it's a one-way mod!
> That P61 will no longer work in your 6P



Oh well. A Malkoff M60 lives in my 6P and I still have another P61 for when I want to use it.



naked2 said:


> I guess that makes the EO-9 the final candidate!



The cheapest solution it is.

Thanks everyone for the helpful information.


----------



## Owen

This thread has me dreaming of a SRTH on a Z2, or a KT2-HA on a C2....with a IMR-M3T.
Why, oh why, did I ever sell that KT2?


----------



## naked2

Owen said:


> This thread has me dreaming of a SRTH on a Z2, or a KT2-HA on a C2....with a IMR-M3T.
> Why, oh why, did I ever sell that KT2?


Yeah, I'm just now venturing into the "dark side?" of incans, and just found myself buying a bezel for a body I don't even have yet!


----------



## Bullzeyebill

naked2 said:


> Yeah, I'm just now venturing into the "dark side?" of incans, and just found myself buying a bezel for a body I don't even have yet!



You bought a KT4?

Bill


----------



## naked2

Bullzeyebill said:


> You bought a KT4?
> 
> Bill


No (I wish!), nothing that exciting, just a black E2e bezel for an IMR-E2; hoping FM will make more 2x 18500 black E bodies!


----------



## Brizzler

Where are the IMR-bulb reviews and comparisons that I've been hoping for? - a few people must have received their bulbs by now!


----------



## jumpstat

The IMR-M6 looks interesting. Have anyone tried this LA in their M6? The runtime according to LF's website is around 18 minutes on 6xIMR cells ( i am assuming with the stock M6 battery holder).....


----------



## jimhoff

I'll be putting that bulb (IMR-M6) in my M3T for a whopping 9 minutes runtime. 




jumpstat said:


> The IMR-M6 looks interesting. Have anyone tried this LA in their M6? The runtime according to LF's website is around 18 minutes on 6xIMR cells ( i am assuming with the stock M6 battery holder).....


----------



## digitaldave

jumpstat said:


> The IMR-M6 looks interesting. Have anyone tried this LA in their M6? The runtime according to LF's website is around 18 minutes on 6xIMR cells ( i am assuming with the stock M6 battery holder).....



I'm hoping that it's a really poor performer, with only a few lumens out the front and a run time of seconds, so I can bypass the whole M6 thing and save some money.

LOL, who am I kidding, I know I'm going to end up with an M6 sometime . If it works out well, it'll give another rechargeable option for those with an M6, without having to use another type of battery or adaptor.


----------



## Owen

naked2 said:


> Yeah, I'm just now venturing into the "dark side?" of incans, and just found myself buying a bezel for a body I don't even have yet!


Know exactly what you mean. I recently bought another Leef 2x18650 body, then another KT-4 to go with it, and now an extra Z46 is on the way to probably use this IMR-M3 bulb in, plus have a M2 bezel on the way that I'm not even sure why I ordered, but am considering another Leef body for that.
What ticks me off is I've already had all this stuff or its equivalent and more, sold it for a loss on the Marketplace, and am buying pretty much the same crap all over again. Duh.
And I wonder why I never get the credit card paid off...
Haven't ordered them yet, but can't wait to see the IMR-M3 and IMR-M3T now that RobertM has posted beamshots of the IMR-9.


----------



## jumpstat

digitaldave said:


> I'm hoping that it's a really poor performer, with only a few lumens out the front and a run time of seconds, so I can bypass the whole M6 thing and save some money.
> 
> LOL, who am I kidding, I know I'm going to end up with an M6 sometime . If it works out well, it'll give another rechargeable option for those with an M6, without having to use another type of battery or adaptor.


I am already happy with LF's HO-M6R. Its a bit brighter with MN21 and it partners well with AW's P17670 in FM's custom holder. I was hoping for a EO-M6R than can fully utilize the existing battery setups.


----------



## [email protected]

Happy that you like the HO-M6R Jumpstat. :twothumbs
The IMR-M6 is really in another league, so wait for the beamshots from the guys and see if you wanna go the IMR route.
It will partner good with the AWs because they are designed around it.

As for an EO-M6R, there are no Li-Ion battery that have the discharge rate to be able to support such a lamp.
Actually, you can view the IMR-M6 as the EO-M6R, but you just need new batteries.


Owen,

Never sell SF parts, put them in a box because you will definately need to use it someday. Actually that goes for any flashlight parts I guess. 


Cheers,

Mark


----------



## digitaldave

jumpstat said:


> I am already happy with LF's HO-M6R. Its a bit brighter with MN21 and it partners well with AW's P17670 in FM's custom holder.



That's the setup that got me interested in an M6. I've been reading through DM51's rechargeable M6 shootout thread, and I'm still amazed that a torch can fully illuminate an 80' tall tree, 400' away! Must resist... Willpower fading... ARGH!!!


----------



## naked2

Mark, why wouldn't an IMR-M3T work with 2x AW C LiCo cells?


----------



## jimhoff

I just got my IMR-E2 350 bulb lumens. It's in my E2D with IMR 16340 batts. Seems about right for what I would expect....


----------



## mdocod

naked2 said:


> Mark, why wouldn't an IMR-M3T work with 2x AW C LiCo cells?



It probably would work, and be perfectly safe, but we won't know the exact current draw of these lamps until someone tests it. So we won't know for sure until more testing is done. 

I made a post in one of the other IMR threads along these lines, I'll try to remake the point....

Is a WA1111 or an 1185 specified for use with various configurations of li-ion cells? Did we give a flying crap? By applying an appropriate logic and understanding, we can match bulbs and batteries and get good safe reliable results just have we have been doing for years. 18650 size and large protected LiCo cells with high current PCBs will *probably* light up any of these new IMR lamps perfectly well. The issue us that, many brands of 18650s out there would not work with the IMR lamps as it would just trip the protection circuit, so it's a lot easier to just sell the lamps as "IMR only" lamps, rather than have to answer a gagillion questions about whether "these" or "those" cells will work with these lamps. With the number of possible 18650 and larger li-ion cells out there, it would be impossible to accurately answer every question.

Lets find out how much current the lamps draw when some people get them and test them, then we can start looking at other possible battery configurations. 

Eric


----------



## mudman cj

I also just got my IMR-E2. With a multimeter in 10A mode it drew 2.15A. Using a shunt resistor and compensating (by calculation) for the voltage drop across the shunt, I got an operating current of 2.25A, by which I mean the light is running at about this current without the extra resistance of wires or resistors. This was on 2 AW IMR16340 cells charged to 4.16V each.

I'm using a Z57 but operating it like a twisty in an attempt to avoid degrading the switch.


----------



## jimhoff

Further IMR-E2 remarks....

Bulb glass is longer, some artifacts & rings inside of 4'. 

I had to re-tension the tailspring to restore function. Heat must have discolored & softened it. Pulling this spring 2 or 3 mm longer seems to be a permanent fix.

Bulb seams to yellow at ~6 minutes so I pulled cells and measured 3.55.

Charging up now for a long burn....


----------



## jimhoff

Further IMR-E2 remarks....

1-2 min super bright. 

3-4 min very bright, head too hot to hold--tailstanding

5-6 min head is burning hot tube is almost too hot to hold dimming a bit more. 

6 minutes - head measures 150 degrees with IR therm. Mid-body 125 deg f. 

7 min 155* head

8 min 160* head, 135* mid-body

9 min dimming to "[email protected]"

batts measure 132* and 3.62 volts each

all 4 IMR 123's still charging


----------



## Bullzeyebill

Sounds like it is good for short bursts. Watch the temp of those cells. 140 degrees F is about the limit for them. Actually best not to do that ever again. If it becomes too hot to hold that is a signal to you to back off. Please use caution. :shakehead

Bill


----------



## Owen

Please quit trying to mommy someone who obviously knows what they are doing, and is trying to put out valuable information.
It's bad enough we can't get a current draw rating from the manufacturer, plus all the resulting BS about the tailcaps and battery suitability being spread around, already. 
No need to treat everyone who goes to the trouble of buying these specialty cells and lamps as if they're too stupid to function on a basic level.


----------



## jimhoff

I kinda liked it actually. Light is cold now and it's dark out. I'll see about a iphone beamshot overnight....


----------



## naked2

Well jimhoff, you convinced me! :devil: I just ordered a IMR-E2!


----------



## jimhoff

iPhone won't lock exp or white bal:

15' to grill, 45' to tree






55' to car





80' to tree


----------



## Bullzeyebill

Owen said:


> Please quit trying to mommy someone who obviously knows what they are doing, and is trying to put out valuable information.
> It's bad enough we can't get a current draw rating from the manufacturer, plus all the resulting BS about the tailcaps and battery suitability being spread around, already.
> No need to treat everyone who goes to the trouble of buying these specialty cells and lamps as if they're too stupid to function on a basic level.



We got the info from jimhuff's testing. I am suggesting that he does not repeat the test. He noted 132F for the cells after removing them froim the flashlight. Specs for the IMR note that 140F is the max that the batteries should be subjected to. jimhuff has 24 CPF posts and may not have a lot of experience using LiIon cells, or he may have experience, but a word of caution is not a bad thing. I have experience with LiIon, but not IMR's. I would not repeat the test again after the first run unless I knew that I could keep the cells cooler during long runtimes. Yes, I was also sort of miffed that we could not get the current draws for the new IMR LA's. We need all the info we can get.

Bill


----------



## william lafferty

I just got the LF IMR M3 bulb rated at 500 lumens. Recommended use is 2 x 3.7 v. LiMN rechargable batteries. 

I mounted the light in an M6 with an M3 head, powered by 2 x IMR 18650 batteries. Amperage as measured at the tailcap was 2.23amps. 

Then I put the M3 head and the IMR M3 bulb in a two-123 cell Leef body (M head and C tail)powered by 2 x IMR 123's. Amperage measured at the tailcap was 2.25amps. 

This setup doesnt seem very impressive in the M6 body, but it's fairly interesting in the 2 x IMR123 size body.


----------



## william lafferty

Bullzeyebill said:


> a word of caution is not a bad thing.
> 
> Bill




Totally agree. The most experienced handler of dangerous materials can make a mistake. We're here to help each other


----------



## mdocod

wow, only ~2.25A?

The EO-M3T rated at 450 lumen draws more than that, something isn't right here.... either with your lamp, or with your measuring equipment... is this on fresh cells?

Eric


----------



## william lafferty

Hello Eric,

Just checked the cells. The IMR 123's were 100% on the ZTS tester, but the IMR18650's were only 80% on one cell and no reading on the other. (Not sure how that happened). Will recharge and try again. 

bill


----------



## Paul5M

*Overhyped? *:whoopin:


----------



## jimhoff

I'm glad I got mine. I'm going for the IMR-M6 deal for my M3T. Haven't seen any hype but my own....


----------



## william lafferty

mdocod said:


> wow, only ~2.25A?
> 
> The EO-M3T rated at 450 lumen draws more than that, something isn't right here.... either with your lamp, or with your measuring equipment... is this on fresh cells?
> 
> Eric



Eric,

I recharged all the cells and they work fine in both lights. Now that both 18650's are working, the 2 x IMR18650 is much brighter. But now I cant get an amp reading at the tail of either light. Obviously, I am doing something wrong, but I have no idea what it is. 

If you would be willing to take a proper reading on this bulb, Eric, I will be glad to send it to you with pre-paid return postage. 

bill


----------



## mdocod

william lafferty said:


> Eric,
> 
> I recharged all the cells and they work fine in both lights. Now that both 18650's are working, the 2 x IMR18650 is much brighter. But now I cant get an amp reading at the tail of either light. Obviously, I am doing something wrong, but I have no idea what it is.
> 
> If you would be willing to take a proper reading on this bulb, Eric, I will be glad to send it to you with pre-paid return postage.
> 
> bill



Don't worry about it, I'm sure others will be getting these bulbs who own a multi-meter, and I may even go ahead and order a couple to play with at some point here. 

[edit in] I just read over in another IMR thread that others are getting the same ~2.3A reading, you are not alone. 

Eric


----------



## [email protected]

Okay, I am pi**ed off, I just deleted the entire reply which I was gonna post and I am going to write it again in a calm manner.

1. I will post the specs a bit later, I do not want any more speculations.

2. Stop pointing a finger at me for not posting the lamp current draws and such for the IMR Series, NO other companies post detailed lamps specs except for us. And I am getting bashed at by not doing it for one series? 

3. Why don't I do it? I have said before, because I don't want you guys to "try" weird setups and hurt yourself or break your assets (light, tailcap, batteries, etc). AND people think it was BS.

So I am not gonna care anymore, you can have your fun.


Have a nice day,

Mark


----------



## Nite

I just bought two IR non contact thermometers, ones a keychain model, others a big one with laser

I foresee some problems when summer comes and people who are comfortable with these setups in the winter, encounter high heat and humidity away from home.. summertime.

Remember the only two LiCo explosions i know of during charging was two "experts" using hobby grade chargers, on the wrong settings.

When I try a 1000 Lumen bulb with 3xIMR16340 cell # one will be a dummy, in a 12P.

I need some type of Larger body for 3x18650....


----------



## jimhoff

I was warned. I'm not whining.

Playing with my E2D with the new IMR-E2 bulb and IMR-16340 batts. A couple times the light wasn't lighting and would make the "rattle" when I moved it. Because of the construction of the E2D and maybe the shorter terminal nub on the LA, there has to be good spring tension to make a circuit--otherwise, a rattle and no light.

I turned the light off and put it in my pocket. then i notice my pocket getting warmer. I take the tailcap off and noticed the spring has collapsed again and is very hot. 






A couple questions:

how can the tailspring present it's self as a load when the switch is off?

Can I repair/upgrade this tailspring? The switch seems good.

The inside stinks now too  like magic smoke.

Thanks.


----------



## Bullzeyebill

Looks like your spring has lost its spring due to the heat, has collapsed, and the switching mechanism is compromised. Probably more damage you can not see.

Billl


----------



## jimhoff

Fluke multimeter set to continuity beep demonstrates good switch. I know there's a mystery and I could have put it in my pocket while on, but the light had a warm tailcap and not a hot head. 

Anyway, the spring was brittle and broke off. I believe I can attach a magnet to make the battery meet the clickie with the spring gone....


----------



## [email protected]

And there goes our first clicky.

I am sure you have read the information posted by AW about holding the light at all times to keep the heat in check. Also, my info posted about keeping the heat in check. Also info about the spring losing tension.

This is exactly why I got angry because I saw it coming. You were lucky nothing happened to the batteries leaving them rattling like that.

Can anyone in class tell me what happened when the batteries rattle and what it did to the tailswitch? :wave: (no reward for answering it correctly) 

Let me tell you, you basically already wrote the batteries off the moment you used an IR therm and found the mid-body is 125 deg f. Read what AW and me both said. Keep the temperature in check and turn off the light when you feel is too hot (you "FEEL" meaning that your hands should be holding it). Simple instructions that is somehow so hard to follow. 

"3-4 min very bright, head too hot to hold--tailstanding"
Should've stopped right here and nothing would happen. Why are you tailstanding it when the indications of overheating is so evident?
I guess there are things you must sacrifice in the name of science, eh?

My last 2 advice for you:
1. Don't try to "upgrade/repair" it by yourself, call SF and get a replacement.
2. Don't use a magnet to "fix" the contact, it is really dangerous.

Safety first!


Mark


----------



## jimhoff

Yes it's science. 

I don't at all fault the products and I understand you not wanting them abused and the results posted. Yes all LF/AW warnings were readily apparent and understood by me as evidenced in my earlier postings. 

I don't plan on any more cook-offs. Maybe my experiment will prevent other tragedies.

Now, class, rattling batteries? Tailcap spring hot while clickie off?


----------



## [email protected]

That's good, because it really hurts me to see my customer's properties being destroyed and good people such as yourself losing their hard earned money. 

Most of all, I would like to stop any potential dangerous setups whenever I see one.

I am sorry if I have overreacted on this, but safe use of new setups are really important.


Cheers,

Mark


----------



## chewy78

jimhoff





Enlightened
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 28 





*Re: IMR Setups* 
Further IMR-E2 remarks....

1-2 min super bright. 

3-4 min very bright, head too hot to hold--tailstanding

5-6 min head is burning hot tube is almost too hot to hold dimming a bit more. 

6 minutes - head measures 150 degrees with IR therm. Mid-body 125 deg f. 

7 min 155* head

8 min 160* head, 135* mid-body

9 min dimming to "[email protected]"

batts measure 132* and 3.62 volts each

all 4 IMR 123's still charging 


:thumbsdow:thumbsdow:thumbsdow:thumbsdow:thumbsdow:whoopin::whoopin::whoopin:




.


----------



## Fusion_m8

Hi Mark:

Is the HO-M6R safe to use with 6xIMR16340s in the MB20?

**Apologies if this has been asked somewhere in this thread before, but i just couldn't find it.**


----------



## AW

Hi jimhoff,

Thanks for doing this test in the name of science :devil:. Mark didn't put the ' heat warning ' in all IMF lamps for no reason at all. It is for situation like this. Please note running a high power lamp in a small E2D will produce a large amount of heat which the light body will not dissipate adequately unless you are holding it in your hand during the entire burn. If the batteries are allowed to heat up to 60 degree C ( 140F ), you may run the risk of killing the cells. In your case, you are getting very close @132F. Judging from the discoloration of your tail cap spring, your switch is toasted from a ' short '. The bad smell and heat with no light should confirm it. Please see similar shorted switch here. Don't try to use a magnet in the switch to make up for the length or attempt to using the switch again. The hazard is not worth it. Please also follow the safety warning from equipment manufacturers.

Have fun and be safe!

AW







jimhoff said:


> I was warned. I'm not whining.
> I turned the light off and put it in my pocket. then i notice my pocket getting warmer. I take the tailcap off and noticed the spring has collapsed again and is very hot.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A couple questions:
> 
> how can the tailspring present it's self as a load when the switch is off?
> 
> Can I repair/upgrade this tailspring? The switch seems good.
> 
> The inside stinks now too  like magic smoke.
> 
> Thanks.


----------



## [email protected]

My thanks to AW for clearing things up. 

Fusion_M8,

Using the HO-M6R on the stock M6 battery holder with 6 x IMR16340 cells will be perfectly fine. Just make sure you rest the batteries after the charge before you use the cells.

But why use HO-M6R when you have the IMR batteries and could use the IMR-M6?

Cheers,

Mark


----------



## foxtrot29

chewy78 said:


> jimhoff
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Enlightened
> Join Date: Nov 2008
> Posts: 28
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Re: IMR Setups*
> Further IMR-E2 remarks....
> 
> 1-2 min super bright.
> 
> 3-4 min very bright, head too hot to hold--tailstanding
> 
> 5-6 min head is burning hot tube is almost too hot to hold dimming a bit more.
> 
> 6 minutes - head measures 150 degrees with IR therm. Mid-body 125 deg f.
> 
> 7 min 155* head
> 
> 8 min 160* head, 135* mid-body
> 
> 9 min dimming to "[email protected]"
> 
> batts measure 132* and 3.62 volts each
> 
> all 4 IMR 123's still charging
> 
> 
> :thumbsdow:thumbsdow:thumbsdow:thumbsdow:thumbsdow:whoopin::whoopin::whoopin:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .



Well, thanks for sacrificing your clicky in the name of science! 

I plan to run the same setup, but for short 1 minute bursts of "WOW!" only... lol As soon as I saw the runtime and lumen value I knew the E2D with the IMR bulb and a clicky would just be a great toy, but not really a useful EDC light. Still amazing that this kind of light can now come from an E2D, even if it is only for a couple of minutes.


----------



## lctorana

jimhoff said:


> Fluke multimeter set to continuity beep demonstrates good switch...


No it doesn't.

Try the ohmmeter function instead - you need less than 0.4 ohms' resistance, and preferably a lot less.

Continuiity beepers beep with anything up to 200 ohms in circuit.


----------



## jimhoff

0.0 ohms on the Fluke 85 zero'ed with shorted leads then test the switch. I think it's just the spring not up to the current. A better spring and a means to attach it are what I am seeking. It *appears* the McClickie might fit and it *appears* the spring might be heavier.


----------



## Paul5M

I’m sorry if I pissed you off. 

Am I a “basher”? :shakehead Hell no
Am I a “straight shooter”?  You're damn right I am


I like “science” but I don’t like “fiction”.


----------



## Nite

Just ran a MN21 With a pair of AW 18650 IMR in my new turbohead.

It worked because I used an AW soft start, no flash. The cells were also at 4.05 Im gonna try them full charged next.

Mark one problem tho. When trying to use the 700 lumen IMR M3T...the spring was 2-3MM shorter than the SF MN21..I was unable to get a circuit in a FiveMega body until I either switch to a SF lamp, or Had to use MAGNETS AT the tail end to make up for the space to the tailspring.

Normally when using magnets I put them in between the cells (cause theres no button top when I do) and then use a bit of painters tape to make sure they are isolated and insulated and wont move if I drop the light due to the inherent danger of magnets. I hate to have to do this at this power level to make an LF lamp work.

Mark, Solution? stretch the spring a bit?

I had no problem when using an IMR-9

MD how many lumens do you think Im getting from the 37 watt MN21?

also it came with an MN15 I think also. how much is that one>? time to check your guide..


----------



## Nite

wheres John Goncz:devil: when you need him:devil:

I wonder where he is and what he is doing today.


----------



## Bullzeyebill

Paul5M, it is over with. Mark apologized for his upsettness. Please do not continue it, particularly with such an attitude. You are now "baiting" Mark.

Bill


----------



## DM51

Paul5M... that attitude will get you nowhere. Your post is aggressive, confrontational and unpleasant. Please edit it and tone it down.


----------



## mdocod

Hi Nite, 

An MN21 over-driven on LiMn cells should be achieving 700-800 torch lumens fresh from the charger.


----------



## Nite

mdocod said:


> Hi Nite,
> 
> An MN21 over-driven on LiMn cells should be achieving 700-800 torch lumens fresh from the charger.



thanks..this things blazing!

It seems way brighter than the 680 of an FM1794, but this a 2.5" diameter dish.

I wanna try the 1000 lumen IMR bulb from LF but right now im not getting contact without magnets in this turbohead configuration.

I also bought Non contact IR thermometer just to keep an eye on things, I also made sure its F and C

I spent alot on cells, softstart, new head, lamp, just to go bit brighter than what I have now..with less runtime. However it seems quite impressive and is now my brightest light. Im glad I can order more bodies from florida for myself and have both configurations ready when I walk out the door,.

If im going to walk my dog id bring an FM1794 driven by two LiCo with FM HS for super flood. Also soft start equipped. However in that case id have a SF 6P or FM body with two 16340 driving a P91 should i need it, added an off color cigar "LEEF" holder. i think its natural color.

I bet the LF lamp will work better in a 6P body with 2x16340 and a twisty.

I wonder if the Fivemega body is too long for that spring on an LF LA. I wish the main positive spring was a bit longer right now.


----------



## divine

Paul5M said:


> I don’t care what power source you use. If you apply 7.4V, you’ll get 2.3A, period!


Not all batteries can put out 2.3 amps, and all batteries will dip in voltage when you put a big load on them. Did you ever notice how a car's headlights will dim when you start the car?

I can give you a watch battery setup that will be 7.4 volts and it will be about the size of one CR123 cell, I would like to see how someone can run a 7.4 volt, 2.3 amp setup with that battery setup.

IMR 18650s will handle a 2.3 amp draw much better than 16340's. Just like Mark says, bigger batteries.

The Battery Forum has lots of useful information.


----------



## mdocod

Analogy time!

16340 cell:
2 gallon tank, filled with air to 100PSI, 25' of 3/8" line, all 3/8" fittings.

18650 cell:
6 gallon tank, filled with air to 100PSI, 25' of 1/2" line, all 1/2" fittings.

Both tanks are filled to 100PSI (lets call it ~4.10V from the charger), but...

Which one runs a tool at the end of the line better?

Replace *tool* with *bulb* and it all becomes perfectly clear.

Eric


----------



## [email protected]

Paul5M,

My post was not pointing at anybody and you have decided to take it personally. Your post is very aggressive indeed, probably the most aggressive thread that I have to put up with since I got on CPF. If you have some questions you would like to be answered, ask it in a well mannered way and I will do my best to help you it like I have always been over the years.

1. Who and when did anybody told you I melt my clicky on a 17 watt (IMR-9) lamp? I did say clickies were melt, but did I say which model of lamp I am using? And most of all how I managed to melt it? 

When you are testing a product you have to test it in the most extreme conditions. I was using the IMR-M6 (10.8V, 3A) lamp and was using 3 sets of 3xIMR18650 testing it in a role on a custom 3x18650 body. The body got extremely hot, it killed the batteries and the clicky as a result. Therefore, I made it my responsiblity to warn users about this, it is much easier and reassuring to rule the clicky out for the entire line, so nobody will have the slightest chance to kill batteries or clickies. Many users depend their life on the torch in their line of work. 

2. The IMR-9 was designed to be 7V 2.4A. Feeding it with 7.4V and higher should increase the current draw, not decrease it.

Naturally, one will now notice that he must put the resistence of the parts in between in mind when using a multimeter to check current draw, right? 

That is exactly what I wanted to say when everybody is deadhard on "it is 2.3A on the meter" so the lamp is drawing 2.3A without considering any resistence issues, so I said on the other post that the designed current was not 2.3A. I wanted someone to come out and remind people that there are resistence in between, that's all. And it went out of hand up till this point.

I hope it will clear up on things as I am trying my best to explain it as calm as possible after your aggressive comment and questioning. 


Mark


----------



## Bullzeyebill

Mark, sometimes you have just got to ignore what some people say, and try not to respond to them, particularly when they are so rude in their comments.

Bill


----------



## cenz

[email protected] said:


> 2. The IMR-9 was designed to be 7V 2.4A. Feeding it with 7.4V and higher should increase the current draw, not decrease it.
> 
> Naturally, one will now notice that he must put the resistence of the parts in between in mind when using a multimeter to check current draw, right?
> 
> That is exactly what I wanted to say when everybody is deadhard on "it is 2.3A on the meter" so the lamp is drawing 2.3A without considering any resistence issues, so I said on the other post that the designed current was not 2.3A. I wanted someone to come out and remind people that there are resistence in between, that's all. And it went out of hand up till this point.
> 
> I hope it will clear up on things as I am trying my best to explain it as calm as possible after your aggressive comment and questioning.
> 
> 
> Mark



Hi Mark,

About resistence of multi-meter, I have a super cheap multimeter that it measured N62 is 3.25~3.45A @ a pair 4.17v IMR18650s. Then I changed to another "normal-price" multi-meter which measured a highter current 3.6~3.7A, is it a factor of "quality"?

Thanks


----------



## [email protected]

Now that is something I don't know. :shrug:
Might wanna ask AW on it since he is the expert. 

Cheers,

Mark


----------



## Jesseri

Those cheap DMMs tend not to be so accurate as expensive ones. Of course uncalibrated meters can show erroneous results but one additional source of error is test leads and their connections (adds resistance to measured circuit) etc. on measurements like these with high currents. 
ie. in your case, only 0.3ohm difference in the measured circuit (DMM series resistance, test leads resistance, connection resistance) made the difference in the numbers.





cenz said:


> Hi Mark,
> 
> About resistence of multi-meter, I have a super cheap multimeter that it measured N62 is 3.25~3.45A @ a pair 4.17v IMR18650s. Then I changed to another "normal-price" multi-meter which measured a highter current 3.6~3.7A, is it a factor of "quality"?
> 
> Thanks


----------



## lctorana

It is not a question of accuracy, or even of meter quality.

The effect we are discussing is "burden voltage".

Most meters, on the DC current range, will drop anything up to 0.35 volts across the meter.

Even expensive DMMs, fancy VTVMs and FET VOMs.

Now, with incan bulbs with their current-regulating characteristic, this is self-regulating to a degree, but unless you are blessed with a vintage Avo Model 7, you cannot accurately measure current at the tailcap with an ammeter.

It's a classic case of Schroedinger's Cat - the act of observing a phenomenon changes the phenomenon observed.


----------



## mudman cj

It is possible to accurately measure the current using a shunt resistor. I used a 0.1 Ohm resistor that was rated to handle the power levels in question, and placed it in series with the circuit. The voltage measured across the resistor can be used to calculate the current by Ohms law. This is still not entirely accurate though unless you also correct for the voltage that is dropped by the 0.1 Ohm resistor. To correct for that lost voltage, which would have otherwise been applied to the lamp and therefore driven it harder, you can use multiple methods. I prefer to measure the voltage of the batteries under the load of the aforementioned circuit, add the voltage that was dropped by the shunt resistor, and then using bulb re-rating formulas to calculate the true current. There are simpler approximations though just using ratios that will get you close enough for the scrutiny of most people.


----------



## Bullet Bob

I know that these bulbs were designed to be used with the IMR cells But I have a question. Isn't 2.4 amp draw within the range for protected 18650 LI/ION cells? or is that outside the range for protected cells? What is the range for protected cells? The reason I ask is I'm running Lumens Factory D36 450 lumen module in a WE Rattlesnake with protected cells with no issues and a 550 lumen in another WE Rattlesnake on 123 primaries with no issues. Someone please explain.


----------



## Nite

Just ran a MN21 With a pair of AW 18650 IMR in my new turbohead.

It worked because I used an AW soft start, no flash. The cells were also at 4.05 Im gonna try them full charged next.

Mark one problem tho. When trying to use the 700 lumen IMR M3T...the spring was 2-3MM shorter than the SF MN21..I was unable to get a circuit in a FiveMega body until I either switch to a SF lamp, or Had to use MAGNETS AT the tail end to make up for the space to the tailspring.

Normally when using magnets I put them in between the cells (cause theres no button top when I do) and then use a bit of painters tape to make sure they are isolated and insulated and wont move if I drop the light due to the inherent danger of magnets. I hate to have to do this at this power level to make an LF lamp work.

Mark, Solution? stretch the spring a bit?

I had no problem when using an IMR-9

Maybe I should be in the LF thread?


----------



## mdocod

Bullet Bob,

Please read post #336 in this thread. 

Short answer: 
yes all of these new IMR lamps have a protected LiCo powered option possible, just like we can look at any other bulb on the market, test it, and mate it to li-ion cells in a safe manner, we can do the same thing here. Not all of those LiCo options are possible in a stock body though, and many are going to be restricted to just a single brand and size to actually work. Unprotected cells in appropriate sizing could also be used to power these lamps. I will try to make a point to start a thread in the next couple days with a compatibility chart arranged specifically for IMR cells and IMR lamps.

Long Answer:
Lets remember here guys, what SureFire's official position is on battery and lamp matching. You will never get a recommendation past using SureFire brand CR123s with SureFire bulbs in a SureFire product. They have to control liability and this is the best way to do so. For LumensFactory, building these high power lamps introduces a whole slew of liability that must be controlled, and the best way to do this is to ONLY recommend the use of IMR cells and twisty tailcaps for the entire line of new high power lamps. We can come along and do our independent testing, and figure out where there are exceptions to the rules, but if you experience a battery or clicky failure while using a configuration that isn't officially recognized by LF, you have to treat it the same as you would with using a SF host to do something they do not advise. 

My advise at this time, if you aren't absolutely confident in an alternative configuration, don't do it.

Eric


----------



## lctorana

mudman cj said:


> It is possible to accurately measure the current using a shunt resistor. I used a 0.1 Ohm resistor that was rated to handle the power levels in question, and placed it in series with the circuit. The voltage measured across the resistor can be used to calculate the current by Ohms law. *This is still not entirely accurate though unless you also correct for the voltage that is dropped by the 0.1 Ohm resistor. To correct for that lost voltage, which would have otherwise been applied to the lamp and therefore driven it harder, you can use multiple methods. I prefer to measure the voltage of the batteries under the load of the aforementioned circuit, add the voltage that was dropped by the shunt resistor, and then using bulb re-rating formulas to calculate the true current.* There are simpler approximations though just using ratios that will get you close enough for the scrutiny of most people.


And added to this is:
a) the tolerance on your 0.1 ohm power resistor wil be +/- 5% at best
b) an unknown and variable resistance added in the connections either end of the 0.1 ohm resistor. This could be significant.

There is only one really accurate way of measuring flashlight current.
1) measure the bulb voltage under load using a high-resistance voltmeter.
2) using a separate power supply, measure the current flowing through the bulb at exactly this bulb voltage. The caveat is that the ammeter must be upstream of the voltmeter. The voltmeter should apply a negligible extra load on the circuit - less than a microamp. Let me say that again. The voltmeter needs to be directly in parallel with the bulb, and the ammeter needs to be in series with both.

_PS I'm not sticking my tongue out at anybody. This post is intended for educational purposes._


----------



## mdocod

Nite said:


> ....
> 
> Maybe I should be in the LF thread?



I was just noticing that you have posted this same question in both this thread and the marketplace thread for these lamps. This could be considered a form of cross-posting and is often counterproductive and can create confusion for folks trying to get caught up on answering questions. 

Like when people ask a question in a thread, then start a new thread with the same question, and then PM me looking for an answer, all before I have even gotten home from work to find the first question. In the end it translates to clutter. 

Eric


----------



## DM51

mdocod said:


> ... you have posted this same question in both this thread and the marketplace thread ... this could be considered a form of cross-posting and is often counterproductive and can create confusion


Correct. Nite, please also note that this is a violation of Rule #9, and it will earn you a suspension if you do it again.


----------



## mudman cj

lctorana said:


> And added to this is:
> a) the tolerance on your 0.1 ohm power resistor wil be +/- 5% at best
> b) an unknown and variable resistance added in the connections either end of the 0.1 ohm resistor. This could be significant.
> 
> There is only one really accurate way of measuring flashlight current.
> 1) measure the bulb voltage under load using a high-resistance voltmeter.
> 2) using a separate power supply, measure the current flowing through the bulb at exactly this bulb voltage. The caveat is that the ammeter must be upstream of the voltmeter. The voltmeter should apply a negligible extra load on the circuit - less than a microamp. Let me say that again. The voltmeter needs to be directly in parallel with the bulb, and the ammeter needs to be in series with both.
> 
> _PS I'm not sticking my tongue out at anybody. This post is intended for educational purposes._



I meant no offense by using the emoticon - he is smiling after all. I was just poking fun at the tendency for internet discussions to occasionally evolve into attempts to humiliate another person.

Thanks for offering a good method of checking bulb current. I will have to try it and compare results for fun. 

As for the method I described, I use a 1% resistor and solder connections to eliminate the resistances, but your concerns are valid nonetheless and should be given consideration.


----------



## Nite

mdocod said:


> I was just noticing that you have posted this same question in both this thread and the marketplace thread for these lamps. This could be considered a form of cross-posting and is often counterproductive and can create confusion for folks trying to get caught up on answering questions.
> 
> Like when people ask a question in a thread, then start a new thread with the same question, and then PM me looking for an answer, all before I have even gotten home from work to find the first question. In the end it translates to clutter.
> 
> Eric



I shouldnt have posted the same question in two threads, sorry.
I was sure there was no way he'd scroll up far enough to see my now buried post. So I guess  i couldve pmd him. SHouldve. Now that I know posting the same question twice is a violation of rules I must re-read. thanks for the link 51...:thinking:


----------



## lctorana

I'll add a calculation to reinforce this point.

Let's take the mudman's 0.1 ohm resistor, and assume that it is a laboratory-calibrated 4-terminal current shunt _(no, that's not rhyming slang)_, with perfect resistanceless connections including those to the flashlight. Let's assume all that and make the measuring setup ideal.

Now, at 2.3A, that will drop 0.23V across the resistor. Now this figure is also typical of most multimeters, analog or digital, new or old, high-quality or cheap. _(With the odd exception like ye olde Avo Model 7.)_

If, without the measuring equipment in circuit, the bulb was seeing (to quote [email protected]) 7.0V @ 2.4A, *then with the extra 0.1 ohms of resistance in circuit, the bulb will now see 6.80V @ 2.33A* by my calculations, after you allow for the internal resistance of 16340 batteries.

Quod Et Demonstrandum.


----------



## [email protected]

Nite, 

your question has been answered over at the marketplace forum. 


Bullet Bob,

I couldn't have explained it clearer then what Eric said. 

If you guys are looking for the specs, I have it on the Marketplace thread.
I edited it into the first post.


Cheers,

Mark


----------



## mudman cj

lctorana said:


> I'll add a calculation to reinforce this point.
> 
> Let's take the mudman's 0.1 ohm resistor, and assume that it is a laboratory-calibrated 4-terminal current shunt _(no, that's not rhyming slang)_, with perfect resistanceless connections including those to the flashlight. Let's assume all that and make the measuring setup ideal.
> 
> Now, at 2.3A, that will drop 0.23V across the resistor. Now this figure is also typical of most multimeters, analog or digital, new or old, high-quality or cheap. _(With the odd exception like ye olde Avo Model 7.)_
> 
> If, without the measuring equipment in circuit, the bulb was seeing (to quote [email protected]) 7.0V @ 2.4A, *then with the extra 0.1 ohms of resistance in circuit, the bulb will now see 6.80V @ 2.33A* by my calculations, after you allow for the internal resistance of 16340 batteries.
> 
> Quod Et Demonstrandum.



That is of course quite true, but I don't know what you think you are proving except that if one does not bother to account for the voltage dropped across the resistor then the reading will be in error. You seem to be ignoring that portion of the method I posted. Regardless, your calculation does give an approximation of the error that people introduce when using their meter in series with the circuit in an attempt to directly measure the current.


----------



## roadie

mark or (anyone),

had u ever run the IMR-M6 with 3 AW C cells before?

will it work?


----------



## [email protected]

Roadie,

Who me?
Yes, I did and it is actually my favorate setup.
IMR-M6 or HO-M6R on a BigLeef, awesome setup with the safe protected AW C Cells.

Long Runtime, Awesome Output, Safe to use (protected batteries), Perfect size (skinner then the M6, which I always think is too fat), it's an uncommon light, the cool design, has good heat dissipation, and it's modular meaning I can switch it to a 2 cell and use a different lamp or head or whatever.
What more do you want? :devil:

The exact setup I liked would be:

BigLeef with C neck
Surefire SRTH Head
IMR-M6 or HO-M6R modded a bit to fit and focus on the SRTH
3 x AW C cells

You can use a KT head or an M Turbo head instead(need M neck), but the SRTH is the sh*t. :devil:
Throws so much better, plus it's COOL.  

Cheers,

Mark

PS. It still doesn't mean I said it's okay to use Non-IMR cells on IMR lamps.


----------



## M.S

[email protected] said:


> Roadie,
> 
> Who me?
> Yes, I did and it is actually my favorate setup.
> IMR-M6 or HO-M6R on a BigLeef, awesome setup with the safe protected AW C Cells.



Ok, is it brighter than 1185? Current draw looks similar... I may have to find out in my 3C BigLeef.


----------



## mdocod

M.S said:


> Ok, is it brighter than 1185? Current draw looks similar... I may have to find out in my 3C BigLeef.



I would venture to guess that the 1185 is going to be slightly brighter, as it is more heavily overdriven on 3 li-ion cells and runs higher current (see LuxLuthor's destructive incan testing). However, the IMR-M6 wouldn't be far behind, and would be a far more reliable setup with much less risk of insta-flash. We've had lots of reports of insta-flashes on the 1185 with 3 li-ion cells. The IMR-M6 is like a practical version of an 1185 IMO. 

Eric


----------



## dradee1

mdocod said:


> I would venture to guess that the 1185 is going to be slightly brighter, as it is more heavily overdriven on 3 li-ion cells and runs higher current (see LuxLuthor's destructive incan testing). However, the IMR-M6 wouldn't be far behind, and would be a far more reliable setup with much less risk of insta-flash. We've had lots of reports of insta-flashes on the 1185 with 3 li-ion cells. The IMR-M6 is like a practical version of an 1185 IMO.
> 
> Eric


 
Are these IMR 18650 batteries really that much better than the protected AW 18650 batts? I just ordered a Leef 3x18650 C tail M head body and HO-M6R bulb for my M4. 

Would the IMR-M6 bulb and IMP batteries be that much brighter? or run much longer?


----------



## mdocod

dradee1 said:


> Are these IMR 18650 batteries really that much better than the protected AW 18650 batts? I just ordered a Leef 3x18650 C tail M head body and HO-M6R bulb for my M4.
> 
> Would the IMR-M6 bulb and IMP batteries be that much brighter? or run much longer?



I'm not sure where the notion of them being "better" got mixed in there. IMR cells are different, not better. Each cell type has it's own good and bad points.

An IMR cell is a tradeoff, it's a cell that can deliver more demanding loads, with less voltage sag, and higher safety, at the tradeoff of energy density.

The IMR cells coupled to a IMR-M6 will have a lot less runtime than protected 18650s driving an HO-M6R, but would be a fair bit brighter. 

Technically speaking, you can run the IMR-M6 on either AW protected 18650s or IMR18650s, with the IMR cells the bulb would run slightly brighter, with the protected cells, the runtime would be slightly longer. 

IMR cells are also considered a bit safer generally speaking. They are a "safe" chemistry that is not prone to vent-with-flame when things to haywire. Using protected 18650s is generally only considered unsafe when they are used in applications that they are not intended to be used in. Following manufacture guidelines on charge and discharge methods should be followed for both cell types for maximum safety and cell health. 

For a complete run-down on my opinion of what combinations can and can't be used with the new IMR bulbs, click the following link:
https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/219435

Eric


----------



## dradee1

Thanks for the info, I might aswell get the IMR bulb and batts since its a easy swap in the Devastator. 

Love the M4 Devastator , its gonna be awsome with the 3x Leef body.


----------



## roadie

thanks ... 

u 'light' me up 




[email protected] said:


> Roadie,
> 
> Who me?


----------



## cenz

[email protected] said:


> BigLeef with C neck
> Surefire SRTH Head
> IMR-M6 or HO-M6R modded a bit to fit and focus on the SRTH
> 3 x AW C cells
> 
> Mark



wow.. I would like to order IMR-M6/M3T for my SRTH , would you mind to help me to modify for focusing? (did it add thing or cut thing?)

btw, I will go to your office for comparing of 3"T and SRTH :devil:

Thanks!
Tony


----------



## roadie

-_-||| 


(checking singapore to HK airline ticket ....... )





cenz said:


> ......modify for focusing? (did it add thing or cut thing?)
> 
> btw, I will go to your office for comparing of 3"T and SRTH :devil:
> 
> Thanks!
> Tony


----------



## naked2

*Pocket Rocket!*

I finally got two pairs of IMR16340s from Lighthound, so I've tried my first _actual_ IMR setup. It's a FM D26 LS socket w/1794 in a G2. For now I'm using a G3 bezel with its Pyrex lens, and a G&P A.I. Tailcap Switch with STROBE Function, which acts as a "poor man's" soft start.  I've used it @ 8.3V (too chicken to try 8.4! ) without instaflash. :thumbsup:

I removed the stock switch from the Nitrolon cap and replaced it with the switch from the G&P. While I had it open, I replaced the stock switch boot with a GITD one. Although I'm not a big fan of GITD buttons since they don't really glow very long, it does look pretty cool against the Nitrolon.  But what I'd _really_ like to do with this setup is replace the stock Lexan lens in the G2 bezel with a UCL, and reinstall the black switch boot, for a *totally* stealth pocket rocket! :devil:

Since this setup runs less than ten minutes before it rapidly dims, the heat isn't really an issue for the Nitrolon; it never got too hot to hold, so I think the cells will be fine too. It's really more fun than practical! :rock:


----------



## jumpstat

*Re: Pocket Rocket!*



naked2 said:


> I finally got two pairs of IMR16340s from Lighthound, so I've tried my first _actual_ IMR setup. It's a FM D26 LS socket w/1794 in a G2. For now I'm using a G3 bezel with its Pyrex lens, and a G&P A.I. Tailcap Switch with STROBE Function, which acts as a "poor man's" soft start.  I've used it @ 8.3V (too chicken to try 8.4! ) without instaflash. :thumbsup:
> 
> I removed the stock switch from the Nitrolon cap and replaced it with the switch from the G&P. While I had it open, I replaced the stock switch boot with a GITD one. Although I'm not a big fan of GITD buttons since they don't really glow very long, it does look pretty cool against the Nitrolon.  But what I'd _really_ like to do with this setup is replace the stock Lexan lens in the G2 bezel with a UCL, and reinstall the black switch boot, for a *totally* stealth pocket rocket! :devil:
> 
> Since this setup runs less than ten minutes before it rapidly dims, the heat isn't really an issue for the Nitrolon; it never got too hot to hold, so I think the cells will be fine too. It's really more fun than practical! :rock:


Cool setup! Just be aware that Nitrolon sucks at dissipating heat so if there is heat buildup whilst operating it can either go through the lens or down towards the batteries. A proper temp test on the batts after a long burst would be suggested


----------



## leukos

Looks like FM just came up with a D26 option for using WA1111 and WA1185: http://candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?p=2793712#post2793712


----------



## naked2

All LF IMR LAs and AW IMR cells now in stock at the Hound!


----------



## signal 13

naked2 said:


> All LF IMR LAs and AW IMR cells now in stock at the Hound!



Just made my first IMR purchase after I saw this post! Bought 2xIMR18650 and the IMRM3T as well as some IMR16340s to use with a P90+SF M951 for my AR15. 

These setups are gonna come in real handy out there in the dark, even if only for 25 minutes of runtime.


----------



## RyanA

leukos said:


> Looks like FM just came up with a D26 option for using WA1111 and WA1185: http://candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?p=2793712#post2793712



Oh yeah! Thoroughly awesome!:twothumbs


----------



## roadie

jus recieved my imr-m6 2 days ago .... using it with the aw 18650s ... my imr18650 hasnt arrived ....

hmmm compare with my 'old' setup with the mn61, the light off ceiling bouncing is slight more spoty in the centre but has some floody outer ring.


----------



## Nite

I will not post an identical Post in another thread....but I hope its ok to quote myself from another thread, this is where this post belongs, and im quite proud of myself for this common sense simple solution to Overheats.

lovecpf


> I ran a LF 1000 Lumen IMR Tubrbohead lamp, IMR-M6 - 10.8V, 3A, 25 hours life, 3350K continuously over ten minutes without a failure, off 3x16340 cells even though the head and body were very hot.
> 
> I made one simple change to my 3x setup to prevent an overheat of the cells. My first Cell next to the lamp was a dummy AW CR123 spacer. Of course I had to use a 2x18650 body instead of a 2x18500.
> 
> I use this for all my 3xIMR Ultra super extreme high output lamps, like 1185 etc.
> 
> I used my non contact IR thermometer for some readings and no cells went near 60C as the first dummy cell reached about 38C just as a heat sink for the lamp..if this heat had been added to cell number one and cell 1 was an IMR cell it would've been destroyed as they heated to about 40-45C (based on distance from head)
> 
> I urge people to use caution when playing with IMR cells and the new lamps. Especially newbs like me.


lovecpf

this is where I shouldve made this post. In this thread.


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## maxspeeds

Mark, is it possible to make a IMR-*M3* 13 Volt 1000 lumen bulb? Or is the bulb opening in the reflector limiting this?


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## [email protected]

Yes, Max.
The main concern is the lamp size limitations here, I have a more in depth explanation on my reply from your PM.

Cheers. 

Mark


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## Youfoundnemo

I remember seeing something about why you choose to not make an IMR E1e but I cant find it for the life of me (yea tried the search function too) Why is it that you choose to not make one again, was there not too much that could be dont as far as improving bulb lumens or was there not enough request for one or what?


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## [email protected]

Youfoundnemo,

Simple, 

1. LED can give better output in that range, the IMR series is targeted for super output fanatics, there is really no point making one.

2. Heat might be a serious issue for the E1 since it is quite small.

But we can probably create something that is comparable to a SF P60 safely on the E1e, so I MIGHT give it a try.

If I am going to make one it will be much more conservative then the IMR-E2 because I want it to be something you can use for a long time and not worry about anything. So output wise I will set it to around the P60 mark.

Anyhow, if you have suggestions, I am here for you guys.


Cheers, 

Mark


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## Youfoundnemo

I know that the eo e1r is in the P60 range for output so perhaps we can try P61 range for the IMR, I know that I am indeed a lumen nut and love incan (tried led for a while but it doesnt really suit me) as for the IMR trying to achieve decent runtime, I believe its kindof besides the point, it already has reduced capacity so if we were going for runtime we would stick to regular lico batts. and 2 people (myself included) are running the IMRs in configurations that give only 5 to 10 min run time....if we werent going for all out brightness we wouldnt even try the "IMR way" we would stick to those sickly looking LEDs.

Your motto is "how bright do you want it" I say 120 OTF lumen range, If you do testing and find it to be unprofitable to market so be it but I thought I would make the want for such a thing expressed


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## Nite

this thread should be discussing 18500 imr now!


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## GarageBoy

Hey- using IMR E2s on a Z57 light- will the high current arcing on the switching surfaces be a problem or do I just worry about heat?


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## FredericoFreire

I've heard that headlight car bulbs should not be touched with bare hands, if done, it should be wiped with alcohol and cloth.

What about the LF IMR series? I handled by the metal base, but I'm afaid that I grabs some grease from the SF turbohead collar. Should I wipe it or leave as it comes from factory?


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## DM51

FredericoFreire said:


> I've heard that headlight car bulbs should not be touched with bare hands, if done, it should be wiped with alcohol and cloth.
> 
> What about the LF IMR series? I handled by the metal base, but I'm afaid that I grabs some grease from the SF turbohead collar. Should I wipe it or leave as it comes from factory?


Buy a small can/bottle of Isopropyl alcohol (IPA). If in doubt, use this on a tissue to clean any possible trace of grease off the glass envelope of the bulb.


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## FredericoFreire

DM51, thank you for your prompt answer.

I also had to build a spacer to fit 3x IMR18650 on a Leefbody properly. Used a 6mm rod of copper and a 18mm nylon washer. Now it works like a charm.


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## Raoul_Duke

Youfoundnemo said:


> I know that the eo e1r is in the P60 range for output so perhaps we can try P61 range for the IMR, I know that I am indeed a lumen nut and love incan (tried led for a while but it doesnt really suit me) as for the IMR trying to achieve decent runtime, I believe its kindof besides the point, it already has reduced capacity so if we were going for runtime we would stick to regular lico batts. and 2 people (myself included) are running the IMRs in configurations that give only 5 to 10 min run time....if we werent going for all out brightness we wouldnt even try the "IMR way" we would stick to those sickly looking LEDs.
> 
> Your motto is "how bright do you want it" I say 120 OTF lumen range, If you do testing and find it to be unprofitable to market so be it but I thought I would make the want for such a thing expressed




I have to aggree, I have an LED dropin for E1e if I were looking for long cool runtime.

I want to see what can be had from one IMR123 in the E1e.

Its a single cell set up, so safe on one cell (the only risk is loosing one cell)

I remember some 3.7V 5A lamps, but thats a touch to much for an IMR 123, ( Max 4.5A :thinking..... and I know high current low voltage lamps are not great, and hot....but with the tiny runtime who cares about heat, as the cell will soon run out of juice before its too hot.


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## tundratrader

I have scanned through this thread. Can anyone confirm that the mn61 works with 3x imr16340 cells? What would my runtime look like? Bulb life?
Is the imr-m6 a better option? How about IMR-m3t on 2 x 18500 imr cells? This is going to be in a KT-2 head 3 cell body. I am looking for mega throw. 

Thanks
Zach


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## bagman

IMR-M3T will work on 2 x 18500 IMR cells.

I am running one of these on 2 x IMR 18650.

I have just ordered a HO-M3T lamp though as I've read a couple of posts here recently saying that it throws even better than the EO or IMR lamps. Not as much light of course but more range and longer run time.


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