# My RiverRock Lantern Family (*pics inside*) >> Runtime graph added <<



## Wutda (Apr 6, 2007)

These RR lanterns come in very handy especially in power outages or when having evening bar-b-ques out in the backyard. Recently, one of my 1st generation 1.5 watt lanterns went dead so I decided to try my hand at replacing the LED with one of the SSC P4 USW0H LEDs. It was my first LED swap and I learned a lot of things such as:
(1) having a GOOD soldering iron is a must
(2) my soldering skills leave much to be desired, but it helps if you have (1) above
(3) After swapping LEDs and putting the lantern back together again, check the (+) and (-) with a meter BEFORE turning on the switch. Otherwise, this makes for a very HOT situation.

I haven't tested it out for runtime yet...I'm just glad it lights up 

Also, I decided to go to my local Target to check out the new RR K2 lantern. They had a couple in stock so one followed me home. I like the high/low modes and that the lens is partially frosted.

Anyway, I decided to take some pics of the family. Actually, this is just part of the family...I have a couple more 1.5 watt lanterns that I bought on clearance before the K2's came out.

On the original RR lanterns, I have used some Glad press n' seal wrap to act as a diffuser.

Original 1.5 watt on the left, new K2 on the right:






The following were taken with my camera in manual mode:





















I received my light meter and was able to get some runtime testing on my 3 lanterns above. I don't have a sophisticated test lab so I had to do everything manually i.e. take a Lux reading every 30 minutes for each lantern...phew I can't believe I did that for almost 9 hours. I used AA alkalines from Costco for this test run.





My observations:
* The graph may be a little misleading when it comes to the K2 since I am measuring lux. Though not registering a lot of lux, it was outputting a lot of light. This may be why a lot of people think it is brighter than the original - it's not necessarily brighter, BUT it is outputting more light.
* Is the K2 a regulated light? I'm not sure what the graph says about its driver.
* The SSC-P4 LED impressed me quite a bit. it consistently was the brightest for the longest time out of the 3 lanterns.
* The SSC-P4 and the 1.5 watt fell off the radar at about the 8-hour mark. They were still generating enough light to navigate a darkened room during a blackout, but not enough to register a lux reading on my meter.
* I don't know if the lanterns would perform better on duracell alkalines or with NIMHs.

Here's the runtime using 2400 mAH Titanium NIMHs. They were fully charged and allowed to settle for a few hours before starting the test.





I wanted to focus on how the K2 performed in the first couple of hours so I took readings every 15 minutes. I was surprised that the K2 went to 50% brightness within 1 1/2 hours with alkalines. It seems that this is the behavior with NIMHs as well.

Again, these are lux readings and not a measure of total light output.

I like the K2 and may get more as they become more available. I may even transplant a SSC in there. 

Let me know what you guys think.


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## Pumaman (Apr 6, 2007)

*Re: My RiverRock Lantern Family (*pics inside*)*

thanks for the pics and write-up! 
I swapped a cree emitter into the original RR 4AA, and it turned out pretty well. Original worked fine, just wanted mod something that night . The angle is different, but works ok. I need to diffuse it like yours with some press-n-seal, and it should be more effective.
cheers


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## Wutda (Apr 6, 2007)

*Re: My RiverRock Lantern Family (*pics inside*)*

Thanks Pumaman. The lantern I installed the SSC in wasn't really dead. As it turns out, the battery contacts were just a little corroded :duh2:. Oh well, good enough reason to buy some emitters a try my luck at a swap.

ETA: by the way, if you use the press n seal wrap, it will leave some residue behind if you decide to take it off later on. I removed it on one of my lanterns after about 1 1/2 years and it left some sticky residue behind.


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## JetskiMark (Apr 6, 2007)

*Re: My RiverRock Lantern Family (*pics inside*)*

Hello Wutda,

Thanks for the pic of the original next to the K2 and for the beam shots. I have yet to find any at my local Target. Now I really have to find a K2.

Regards,
Mark


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## JetskiMark (Apr 6, 2007)

*Re: My RiverRock Lantern Family (*pics inside*)*

Hello Again Wutda,

I just called my local Target and they do not have any River Rock lanterns. The guy I spoke with said that if he had the DPCI number (that is a new acronym for me), he could look it up and see where they are in stock. Do you still have the packaging with the number on it? Thanks in advance.

Regards,
Mark


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## Wutda (Apr 6, 2007)

*Re: My RiverRock Lantern Family (*pics inside*)*

Hi JetskiMark. I'm not familiar with that DPCI number either. Here are the numbers I see...

On the UPC code there are two numbers:
The number just above the UPC is: R-LT8K23AA
The number on the bottom of the UPC is: 5948600104

In looking at my Target receipt, the number next to the RR K2 lantern is 092080744 and the description is simply "LANTERN".

I don't see anything that identifies itself as a DPCI number.

BTW, I got mine from the Irvine Spectrum target so they have to be in SoCal. 

Hope that helps.


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## JetskiMark (Apr 6, 2007)

*Re: My RiverRock Lantern Family (*pics inside*)*

Hello Wutda,

Thank you very much for the numbers. Armed with those, I am going to attempt to find one or more.

Regards,
Mark


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## fishx65 (Apr 6, 2007)

*Re: My RiverRock Lantern Family (*pics inside*)*

I just picked up 3 of the original RR lanterns for around 5 bucks each here in Michigan. Just for the heck of it I decided to compare the output of the RR lantern to those little 4aa folding lanterns made by Energizer. Looks to me like the little Energizer puts out more and smoother light! Might want to check these out if your at the local Target. Keep in mind that I have the latest version of these folding lanterns with 3 leds. The package claims 130 hours on low!!!


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## LowBat (Apr 7, 2007)

*Re: My RiverRock Lantern Family (*pics inside*)*



fishx65 said:


> I just picked up 3 of the original RR lanterns for around 5 bucks each here in Michigan. Just for the heck of it I decided to compare the output of the RR lantern to those little 4aa folding lanterns made by Energizer. Looks to me like the little Energizer puts out more and smoother light! Might want to check these out if your at the local Target. Keep in mind that I have the latest version of these folding lanterns with 3 leds. The package claims 130 hours on low!!!


The new RR definately puts out more light than the newest Energizer folding lantern, even on the low setting. I do however find the Energizer far easier on the eyes. In testing the RR on a table, I find you get glare while looking down. The glare shielding is only present when at eye level or when the lantern is hung above you. I'm still testing the lanterns in other common applications.


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## leprechaun414 (Apr 8, 2007)

*Re: My RiverRock Lantern Family (*pics inside*)*

Nice post. Nice to see pics of the whole line. Good info.


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## Sharpdogs (Apr 8, 2007)

*Re: My RiverRock Lantern Family (*pics inside*)*

Great pictures and information. I found out about the RR latern here on CPF and it has been one of my best purchases.


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## Wutda (Apr 8, 2007)

*Re: My RiverRock Lantern Family (*pics inside*)*

Thanks for your comments guys. I'm definitely not an expert at either modding or taking pictures.

One thing I noticed when looking at the pics of my original RRs w/ the press n seal is that there seems to be one hotspot. In looking at them with my naked eyes, however, there are two distinct spots - one from the reflector and one from the LED itself. I guess that the manual settings I chose for my camera is the cause of this: 1/8 & F5.0. I'm not sure exactly what those mean but since I used those same settings for all the pics in the dark, it should be a good comparison between the different lanterns. I'd be open for suggestions on what manual settings I can use in the future.

I'm fairly happy with my SSC mod. When first comparing the SSC version with the original 1.5 watt LED, it didn't seem to be that much brighter. I thought it was brighter, but it was hard to really tell. In looking at the pics, I can see how the SSC seems to fill more of the globe than the 1.5 watt.


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## jng (Apr 11, 2007)

*Re: My RiverRock Lantern Family (*pics inside*)*

Wutda,
Please update us when you get to do runtime tests.
Thanks.


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## Uncle Bob (Apr 11, 2007)

*Re: My RiverRock Lantern Family (*pics inside*)*



Wutda said:


> ETA: by the way, if you use the press n seal wrap, it will leave some residue behind if you decide to take it off later on. I removed it on one of my lanterns after about 1 1/2 years and it left some sticky residue behind.



Were you able to remove the residue with rubbing alcohol or some other agent?


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## Wutda (Apr 11, 2007)

*Re: My RiverRock Lantern Family (*pics inside*)*



jng said:


> Wutda,
> Please update us when you get to do runtime tests.
> Thanks.


jng...I have a light meter that should arrive within a couple of days. It's not a professional model or anything like that but I should be able to at least provide some relative numbers on runtime. I'll update this post with that...maybe even graph it 



Uncle Bob said:


> Were you able to remove the residue with rubbing alcohol or some other agent?


Uncle Bob...rubbing alcohol did work but I still had to put a little elbow grease into it. There's still a little residue but if I keep at it, it should come off. I may try nail polish remover also.


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## DonnyD (Apr 11, 2007)

*Re: My RiverRock Lantern Family (*pics inside*)*

I am doing some work right now by the light of my Phorm booklight and a River Rock Lantern. What is better than that? 

Love your green colored pictures, they look teriffic, so I think I'll visit Target soon an see about a new K2 lantern. 

Thanks for the nice post.


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## CLHC (Apr 11, 2007)

*Re: My RiverRock Lantern Family (*pics inside*)*

Hey nice writeup. Thanks for sharing *Wutda*!

Now I'm going to have to pick me up some of these since I now know the size comparison with the 1st gen and 2nd gen RiverRock LED Lanterns.

Enjoy!


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## Wutda (Apr 13, 2007)

Added a runtime graph to my first post.


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## LowBat (Apr 13, 2007)

Thanks for the runtime graph Wutda. The decline in the new RR K2 concerns me. It looks like it reaches the 50% mark in just 1:15 minutes.


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## Wutda (Apr 13, 2007)

Yeah...I was a bit surprised with the K2's performance also.

Just started another test run using 2400 mAH Titanium NIMHs to see if it behaves similarly. I'm just going to test the K2 and my SSC-modified lantern. I also won't be able to monitor it as long as the first test, but I'll update my 1st post with any results.


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## jng (Apr 13, 2007)

Wutda,
Thanks for the runtime plots. Do you happen to have pics & step by step instructions on how you swapped to the Seoul LED?


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## RdlyLite (Apr 13, 2007)

Dang it, I just shelled out fifty bucks for two of the RR K2 and to see this runtime graph really concerns me.


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## Wutda (Apr 13, 2007)

jng,
This was a pretty simple swap. Once you have the board and heatsink out of the lantern, you can pretty much picture what you will have to do.

Unscrew the top to reveal the driver board. Remove the 2 retaining nuts and gently pry up the board and remove it and the heatsink.

I tried removing the original 1.5 watt led from the heat sink without destroying it, but I failed miserably. Oh well, I just took a pair of pliers to it and it came out without complaint.

This left me with the board connected to the destroyed led by a couple of wires. The heatsink can now be scraped clean of the original epoxy. I also cleaned it with rubbing alcohol afterwards.

I didn't think I could reuse the 2 wires from the board so I desoldered them and put new, longer wires in their place.

Before AA epoxing (and isolating) the SSC emitter to the heatsink, I wired everything up to make sure things were working. Once satisfied, I epoxied the SSC to the heatsink, soldered the 2 wires from the board to the SSC and then put them all back into the lantern.

The only thing to note here is that there is a notch on the board that mates to a tab in the lantern. The post closest to this tab is (+). Before hitting the switch and expecting light, double check this with your meter. I made the mistake of not doing this and when I hit the switch all I got was a lot of heat and no light. Just rotate the board 180 degrees so that the (+) post is next to the notch.

I'm no expert modder so if I could do this a cavemen can do it. 

Good luck. Hope that helps.


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## jar3ds (Apr 14, 2007)

Very nice... thank you very much for sharing! I almost bought a K2 Lantern and I'm really glad I didn't! 

Very impressive SSC Modded Lantern... I might have to do that mod myself! 

Thanks again!


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## Wutda (Apr 14, 2007)

Hey guys don't get me wrong...I like the K2 lantern. Even though the brightness diminishes within the first 1 1/2 hours, it still puts out a fair amount of light. Maybe if RR stayed with a 4xAA instead of a 3xAA design, I would see a different runtime plot.

I like the design changes they made: semi-frosted globe, bigger reflector, capable of standing right-side-up or upside-down...

Things I would consider changing: get rid of the flashing green led beacon, more frosting to diffuse the light, and most of all: overhaul the driver.

As I was taking lux readings during both test runs, I found myself wanting and hoping that it would do well. I was actually rooting for it to give me some good readings.

So what would be my final verdict on the K2? Let's just say I have 5 of the original RR lanterns. I like the K2, but not enough to replace all 5 of my originals with it. I'd consider getting one more K2 - so that I can swap it with an SSC or a Cree :naughty:

As usual, YMMV.


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## SuperNinja (Apr 14, 2007)

*Re: My RiverRock Lantern Family (*pics inside*)*



Wutda said:


> Uncle Bob...rubbing alcohol did work but I still had to put a little elbow grease into it. There's still a little residue but if I keep at it, it should come off. I may try nail polish remover also.


Nail polish remover on plastic?


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## jng (Apr 14, 2007)

Wutda,

Thanks for the great info. I plan on doing this mod as soon as I get some LEDs ordered.


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## Flying Turtle (Apr 14, 2007)

Like SuperNinja pointed out, I would definitely question nail polish remover on plastic. It is basically acetone and will dissolve many plastics. Might be a way to intentionally frost the globe.

Geoff


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## Wutda (Apr 14, 2007)

SuperNinja, Flying Turtle...Good point about the nail polish remover on plastic. Good thing I haven't attempted that yet. I forgot the globe is plastic and not glass.


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## SuperNinja (Apr 14, 2007)

Wutda said:


> SuperNinja, Flying Turtle...Good point about the nail polish remover on plastic. Good thing I haven't attempted that yet. I forgot the globe is plastic and not glass.


I read on the internet that some nail polish remover is made without acetone. I don't know if that means those are safe for plastics though.


From personal experience, I thoroughly recommend un-du for removing adhesives, on virtually any surface.
It works just as well as goo gone, without leaving behind any residue or smell.

Last time I got it (a few years ago), I got a 4oz bottle for $5 at Walmart.
I haven't seen it recently at Walmart, so they might not sell it anymore.
The un-du website seems to be down too. www.un-du.com

In any case, if you ever run across it in a store, I recommend you pick up a bottle to keep on hand.


un-du reviews:
http://scrapbooking.about.com/library/reviews/blundu.htm


http://www.kk.org/cooltools/archives/001194.php
(Someone there says "grip solvent" is a cheaper alternative, but a review at Amazon says grip solvent is oily and no good for porous surfaces http://www.amazon.com/Grip-Solvent-1-Quart-160/dp/B0000BYNVS )


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## Turbo DV8 (May 5, 2007)

Wutda said:


> Even though the brightness diminishes within the first 1 1/2 hours, it still puts out a fair amount of light. Maybe if RR stayed with a 4xAA instead of a 3xAA design, I would see a different runtime plot.


 
Nope, from your output graphs, it has nothing to do with the number of cells. It has everything to do with regulation. The original 1.5w lantern is regulated. The New K2 isn't. Period. I hate it when a manufacturer brings out a "new, improved" only to find that they cut corners somewhere else. Just like Fenix did with the LOD-CE. Their E1 is regulated ruler-flat, but their identically packaged LOD-CE is basically poorly regulated, or not at all.


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## Patriot (May 5, 2007)

Yeah, you've got a good point Turbo. It's purely corner cutting too. I have two of the old ones and one of the new K2s. I'm glad that I kept the old ones because I like them better, primarly because of the excellent regulation.


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## Canuke (May 8, 2007)

I just completed this same mod myself, and got similar results with a USV01 emitter.

The regulation circuitry that drives the emitter is the sort that lowers the voltage until the current meets a specific value, in this case about 300mA. That means that the lantern is running at its most efficient when the batteries are just about to drop out of regulation. The new emitter ran on the same current, but at a lower Vf (3.2V versus the Jupiter's 3.4V). The batteries see a constant 300mA current draw, regardless of their voltage. (I tested this using a variable supply with current readout).

This means that swapping in a Seoul, especially one with a lower Vf, gives more of a runtime benefit than a brightness boost in this design -- but there's a small gotcha.

Overall, batteries will go on longer before dropping out of regulation with the lower Vf, and the light will last longer overall. The drawback is that the excess voltage of 4 fresh cells is being wasted in the regulation circuitry. So, the lower Vf Seoul actually makes the whole setup *less* efficient with fresh cells 

So, I plan to modify mine to work with 3 cells. At 3.2V, 3 cells are down to about 1.067V each before dropping out of regulation, which is decent for alkalines and perfect for NiMH's. A lower Vf USWOH would stretch it out even further.

Ironic that this is the one they built with 4 cells, when it's the K2 that needs it 

Regarding the light pattern, my modified RR is the last of the old design, with a partially textured dome; with the Seoul, the biggest change was that a greater percentage of the light is emitted downward than before, where it's useful. The Seoul also gives a smooth white light, without the bluish hotspot of the previous emitter.

I did not find it necessary to isolate the slug, as the heatsink in mine was already insulated on its bottom where it faces the circuit board.


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## Canuke (May 8, 2007)

*Re: My RiverRock Lantern Family (*pics inside*)*



Wutda said:


> Thanks Pumaman. The lantern I installed the SSC in wasn't really dead. As it turns out, the battery contacts were just a little corroded :duh2:.



The battery contacts are by far the weakest part of the older design. I have one that just stopped working -- no corrosion, nothing; it just won't connect. I plan to pull the battery holder in favor of a new 3-cell unit, and swap the emitter with another USVOI Seoul.


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## Wutda (May 8, 2007)

Canuke...good info you posted. Just for fun, i replaced one of my NIMHs in the Seoul RR lantern with a dummy AA cell and there doesn't seem to be any degradation in light quality. I guess this is to be expected based on your analysis.

With my USWOH SSC and 3 NIMH's, would you expect even better runtime in regulation than with 4 cells? Do you think there would be a difference if I simply used a dummy AA versus purposely modifying the lantern to use only 3 cells as you are going to do? If I can run my SSC-modded RR lantern with 3 cells, I'm finding more reasons NOT to get the K2.


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## Canuke (May 8, 2007)

Wutda said:


> Canuke...good info you posted. Just for fun, i replaced one of my NIMHs in the Seoul RR lantern with a dummy AA cell and there doesn't seem to be any degradation in light quality. I guess this is to be expected based on your analysis.
> 
> With my USWOH SSC and 3 NIMH's, would you expect even better runtime in regulation than with 4 cells? Do you think there would be a difference if I simply used a dummy AA versus purposely modifying the lantern to use only 3 cells as you are going to do? If I can run my SSC-modded RR lantern with 3 cells, I'm finding more reasons NOT to get the K2.



Since the regulation circuit merely dissipated the voltage "overflow" as heat, runtime with 4 cells will always be better than with the equivalent 3 cell setup; just not 25% better.

Also note that when the voltage drops below regulation, it will be direct drive, and will still give usable light to a pretty low level -- which you don't want to do with NiMH's; the consensus for cell longevity is to recharge when they get to 1V each. So, if your lantern is visibly dimmer, it's time to recharge. This is even more the case in the default 4 cell config; by the time *that* starts to dim, the cells are really whacked, at 3.2/4=0.77 or so volts. Not good.

Alkalines, on the other hand, can be sucked down to nothing if you want... those can just linger for hours and hours before they give up the ghost. Here, a 4 cell config is better, as it will squeeze every bit out of them. 

If you use alkalines and are looking for the absolute max runtime between cell swaps, and don't mind moon mode, stick to 4 cells. The 3 cell config is better for NiMH's and for efficiency geeks like me.

If your battery holder is working fine, stick with the dummy cell. I plan to do the permanent 3-cell mod + emitter swap on one with the failed battery contacts and run NiMH's in it, and use a flex config with the currently modded unit (alkaline cells usually come in 4-packs, might as well use the extra).

I wouldn't get the K2 except perhaps as a mod host; I was fortunate to have skipped that phase of development, going from LuxIII lights to the new Cree/Seoul era 

BTW, has anyone given any thought to where the flash mode frequency control is? I'd love to run the frequency up high enough to turn the strobe mode into a low mode.


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## Wutda (May 8, 2007)

Excellent Canuke...with my 12 NIMHs, I will be able to power up to 4 SSC-modded lanterns with just 3 cells. For my purposes, this will work just fine. I'll test out the runtimes with this configuration. Thanks for posting all that info - very helpful to me indeed.

Let us know how your 3-cell mod goes.


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## speederino (May 8, 2007)

Canuke said:


> BTW, has anyone given any thought to where the flash mode frequency control is? I'd love to run the frequency up high enough to turn the strobe mode into a low mode.



See this thread:
https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/92909

there is some discussion about turning the strobe into a low mode. Quite a long thread, some details around post 15 and again starting with post 82.


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## Canuke (May 11, 2007)

Thanks for the pointer speederino... it appears that hacking the strobe mode is a bit problematic in terms of getting the flash rate fast enough.

On the other hand, I wonder whether that 20k resistor mod combined with a cap across the main power posts would do enough to smooth it out?

A different question: does anyone know whether the regulation circuitry can be tweaked to alter the current to the emitter?


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## LEDAdd1ct (Oct 9, 2007)

I posted a "Wanted to Buy" in the marketplace for an original River Rock, modded with a SSC P4 and sanded down globe. However, in the event no one replies with one for sale, does anyone here know of a source where I can purchase the *original* River Rock, the one with the regulation?



~Many thanks!

LEDAdd1ct


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## EngrPaul (Nov 8, 2009)

I just purchased one of these River Rock K2 lanterns at Target closeout, $10.88

It says "powered by Luxeon" on the outside, but inside there is a Cree XR-E LED.

A good surprise


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## Patriot (Nov 8, 2009)

EngrPaul said:


> It says "powered by Luxeon" on the outside, but inside there is a Cree XR-E LED.





That's a nice score. I've got two of the old style luxeons, two of the newer style with K2s, but the XR-E makes it a near perfect little lantern for the price. I really just need to just upgrade the 4 that I have but I need to research about opening them up.


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## EngrPaul (Nov 8, 2009)

The other notable thing is the light has PWM on low mode. This is obviously not resistored... perhaps it's regulated.


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