# SIX NEW LED lights - from Night-Ops!



## luxlover (Mar 19, 2007)

*Hello fellow Night-Ops fans,*

We have not seen a new LED based light from Night-Ops since the release of the Gladius. That has changed......

My CPF associate and friend Joe (jtr1962) were fortunate enough to receive a sample of each of the latest LED offerings by Night-Ops, for our evaluation. The models are:

*Sentinel PL-1-AA*, a 2xAA cell regulated Luxeon I light that can be powered by either NiMH, primary lithium or primary alkaline cell chemistries. It is rated at 35 lumens.

*Sentinel PL-1*, a 1x123 cell regulated Luxeon I light that can powered by either a rechargeable R123 cell or a primary CR123 cell. It is rated at 35 lumens.

*Ally PL-3*, a 2x123 cell regulated Luxeon III light that can be powered by either two rechargeable R123 cells, two primary CR123 cells or a 17650/17670 cell. It is rated at 65 lumens.

*Ally PL-3X*, the two level version of the Ally PL-3, with both levels being regulated. it is rated at 50 lumens and 12 lumens.

*Conquest PL-3-RED*, a 2x123 cell red Luxeon III light that can be powered by the same chemistries as the Ally lights. It is rated at 85 lumens.

*Conquest PL-3-GREEN*, a 2x123 green Luxeon III light that can be powered by the same chemistries as the Ally lights. It is rated at 85 lumens.

For the purposes of this review post, Joe and I split the six lights so that each of us could concentrate on three lights and give a better review. I reviewed the Sentinel PL-1, the Ally PL-3 and the Conquest PL-3-RED. Since Joe lives in a quiet and somewhat dark neighborhood, and I live in a highly lit neighborhood, Joe was able to examine the throw and sidespill of his lights, whereas I was not. My only target for beam pattern description was the far wall in my 24 foot living room. Our reviews were written completely independently of each other, and are presented here together because we examined the lights together. We were collaborators in a very interesting project. My review will concentrate on form, finish and function of the lights, as well as my unscientific impression of them in my dark apartment. Joe's review can be viewed below mine.


*Sentinel PL-1 *
This is a very rugged light, despite it having a totally round Type II anodized surface. It has a pocket clip that is removable with a small Phillips screwdriver. It provides ample pressure on any surface. But it will not tear fabric because the area under the clip is unknurled. The end of the clip has a loop for lanyard attachment. The light easily slides on or off a pant or shirt pocket.

The knurling, in three locations, is not aggressive. It will provide a solid grip without irritating your fingers during heavy use.

The tailcap houses a smooth clicky switch that requires a little more throw than is typical of clickies. But the latching mechanism is very smooth. The extra throw needed to click the switch has the benefit of allowing a more secure momentary-on function than a typical clicky switch that can allow the user to turn it on inadvertedly. I like this switch better than the clicky on most other lights. It is not a quiet clicky, but it feels very secure when on or off. Since the rubber button extends beyond the housing, it will not tailstand. The button itself has a nice molded mesh for grip. It will not irritate a finger.

The reflector is a 20mm type, with a deep dish. The top of the head is mildly scalloped. The scallops are not visible in the beam pattern, as is so often the case in other scalloped lights. The color of the tint appears white "to my eyes", but it is not a cool white. I might call it slightly creme colored white.

The lens is UCL glass with AR coating.

There are no artifacts in the beam projection, not even bonding wires, and the hotspot smoothly blends into the sidespill. There is no dark hole in the hotspot, regardless of how close one gets from a target.

Removing the tailcap demonstrates the care given to the light in making it submersible. There are two o-rings on the body for sealing purposes. The head is glued to the body, so I am not sure if there are two o-rings sealing the head to the body. Near the top of the body on the inside is a decal showing the polarity of the battery, a nice touch.

The only comment I can make regarding the quality of the beam is, from one end of my 24 foot living room to the other end, the beam was perfectly balanced between hotspot and sidespill, very pure, very round and very uniform. I was very pleased with what I saw. Note that Joe and I have provided links to our close-up beamshots of all six lights, to back up what we observed.











*Ally PL-3
*This is also a very rugged light, despite it having a round body with two flats on opposite sides, and Type II anodized surface. The pocket clip is identical to that on the Sentinel. The clip rests on a surface of raised rectangular bodies which are only seen at the center of the body. As is in the case of the Sentinel, the pattern will not tear fabric. The pattern is not sharp at any point.

The only knurling is on the head. 

The tailcap has a series of milled reliefs for a nice grip. Functionally, it is identical to the Sentinel's tailcap. There are also two o-rings on the body for sealing with the tailcap.

The reflector is identical to the Sentinel's, as is the tint.

The lens is identical as above.

The lack of artifacts also applies for this light, as well as the lack of a dark hole at any distance.

I was amazed to observe that the Ally had an identical beam pattern and tint to the Sentinel, although at a higher output level. The people at Night-Ops must have acquired a batch of Luxeon IIIs that have similar binning codes. If I recall correctly, Joe's Sentinel PL-1-AA and Ally PL-3X lights had the same appearance as the two I reviewed above.








 
*
Conquest PL-3-RED
*Of the three lights I reviewed, the Conquest is the most robust and the heaviest. It has a round body and two flats like the Ally. There is no pocket clip, and no place to mount one. Most of the body has the same knurling density as the other two lights. This light has too many patterns to describe, and the linked picture will provide all the details you need.

All the functional details are the same as the other two lights, except for the following.....
The reflector is considerably larger, and the depth appears to be less than the other lights proportionately to the diameter. Whereas the other two lights are using a 20mm reflector, this one measures 28mm.

I am not sure if one would call the lens housing section "aggressively scalloped" or "mildly crenulated." The edges are sharp, and they can cut you if you are not careful.

Now to the best part, the red light output.....
I am not a hunter, so I am not familiar with red lighting in any way. But I can tell you that this red light is so intense that when projected on any light colored surface, your brain will be overloaded with the effect on your eyes. The 85 lumen rating makes the two Conquest lights the brightest of the six new lights. For a white light 85 lumens is a huge amount of light. But for a red colored emitter, that output is beyond description. Maybe it's just the way my brain interprets the area of the red spectrum of this light. One must be careful when using this light in areas where reflective surfaces exist. My curiosity got the best of me and I shined this light on the wall in my living room. The hotspot appeared to be about 7 feet in diameter at 24 feet distance, and most of the light's energy seemed to be concentrated in it.

Since Joe's Conquest PL-3-Green light is functionally identical to my red light, with only a few cosmetic differences, I would imagine that Joe's observation would be the same as mine. These two lights are powerhouses for what they are.

I hope that the reviews of these lights by Joe and myself will help you consider these lights as strong contenders to the many other production lights currently available. Joe and I worked hard to gather the information we submitted in this post. We enjoyed this project as flashlight enthusiasts and as people who enjoy science.










*  Here is Joe’s review....*

In the course of using these lights for a while I can say I'm quite impressed with them. First off, they seem solid and reliable. My Sentinel PL1-AA especially is built like a tank. I have little doubt it could take the rigors of hard daily use. The Allys and Conquests are quite solidly constucted as well, and quite stylish. The hard-anodized clip on the Allys and Sentinel PL-1 is a nice touch usually not seen. On all the lights the switches are solid and reliable. I've never yet had any problems of a switch failing to make contact despite my many attempts at trying. Besides the solid switches the battery compartment of all these lights is made for long term reliability. There are no fancy gimmicks here but rather just a spring on the negative battery terminal to force the cells to make contact with the head. Simple and reliable. Again, the lights have never failed me when installing batteries as do some lights with flaky contact mechanisms. They just work. 

This brings me to how the lights work in actual use. I can say I'm thoroughly impressed with the consistency of the beams and tints across the board. The four white lights have beams which for all intents and purposes look identical. There is a hotspot which fades gradually into the corona without a sharp demarcation. There are no artifacts whatsoever. While a discerning eye can pick up minor tint differences when two lights are shown side by side these are indeed very small, perhaps a variation of 100K in color temperature at the most. Evidently a good job was done in selecting emitters to make the products identical across the board. Even the colored lights have no artifacts in the beams which is a major accomplishment as colored LEDs don't have the benefit of a layer of phosphor over the die to diffuse the light a bit and partially hide the die wires. In all cases output is sufficient to have decent throw out to 40 or 50 yards in a dark environment, and perhaps half that i n a well-lit urban environment. A case can be made that the fewer artifacts in the beam the longer the useful throw since you're not seeing something that isn't there, even a low light levels. This is not the case with an artifact-filled beam where once the subject is distant it's difficult to know whether what you're seeing is real or an artifact of an imperfect beam. Here again the perfect beams of these lights make them useful right up to the point where the returned light fades to the edges of one's ability to detect it. In other words, these lights make full use of whatever raw output the LEDs give them, and that output is pretty decent to begin with. Turned on their tail, any of these lights have sufficient output to decently light a large room well enough to get around. Overall, they are winners.





In order to measure the lux at one meter as accurately as possible it was necessary to correct my raw lux reading by a correction factor. This correction factor was based on the results of my light meter in the CPF Light Meter Benchmark Test relative to the standard lights which were sent to a lab for testing. The correction factor is different for different color light because my light meter doesn't respond evenly across the visible spectrum. For white LED light the correction factor was 1.116. In other words, my raw results were multiplied by 1.116 in order to obtain a more accurate value. The correction factors for red, green, and blue LEDs, respectively, were 0.852, 1.234, and 0.144. It is necessary to note that the colored LED correction factors were based on colored lights with a certain center wavelength. The standard lights don't necessary have the same center wavelengths as other colored lights I may test so the correction factors should be taken as an attempt to get somewhat more accurate results but not as gospel..

Measuring the hotspot diameter presented special problems which required developing a unique methodology to solve. Although it was relatively easy to measure the hotspot diameter by eye at 1 meter, at 5 and 10 meters it proved pretty much impossible. This is in part due to the fact that the hotspot gradually fades into the corona with no sharply defined transition. It is also caused by the very low light levels at those distances which cause the eye to operate in the region where it is far less sensitive to small differences in intensity. Since it is generally accepted that a noticeable difference in intensity to the eye occurs when one source is twice as bright as another I decided to use the point at which intensity falls off 50% from the maximum measured hotspot intensity as the basis for measuring the hotspot at 5 and 10 meters. This method replaced rough judging by eye with a test based strictly on instrumentation. Interesting, the results correlated incredibly well with the 1 meter measurements which were done by eye, at least for the four white lights. The 5 meter and 10 meter hotspot diameter measurements were very close to 5 and 10 times the hotspot diameter at one meter. The correlation didn't hold as well for the two colored lights where the 5 meter diameter was only about twice the one meter diameter, and the ten meter diameter only about four times as large. I attribute this to the decreased sensitivity the human eye has when dealing with light which is overwhelmingly one color. Since only about one third of the photoreceptors are involved, it probably takes an intensity difference of perhaps 6 times instead of 2 times for the eye to notice a significant difference.


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## Nitroz (Mar 19, 2007)

A couple of those lights look like Nuwai lights. The first one looks like a QIII. Only 35 lumens??


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## MorpheusT1 (Mar 19, 2007)

Wow,

I am surprised that Night-Ops want theire name on a Cheap host like Nuwaii..
I have had a few and they work ok,just not the route i would have gone after the sucess of theire other lights.


When i saw this thread i was exited to see what they had come up with,now im just bummed.



Benny


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## luigi (Mar 19, 2007)

I love my Gladius but I seriously think that the new line of lights is a big step backwards for Night Ops.

Both the sentinel and the ally seem to be Nuwaii lights rebranded with their normal specs but ridiculous prices.

Luigi


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## bagman (Mar 19, 2007)

luigi said:


> I love my Gladius but I seriously think that the new line of lights is a big step backwards for Night Ops.
> 
> Both the sentinel and the ally seem to be Nuwaii lights rebranded with their normal specs but ridiculous prices.



As above on all counts, disapointing or what :-(


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## Mark2 (Mar 19, 2007)

Yes, it's very sad indeed. Some of these models must be the most rebranded lights ever. I lost interest in these lights when Ombu of Spain tried to sell them at ridiculous prices...

Why can't Night-Ops just update the Gladius with a Cree? This is a unique and great light, an true innovation and worth every penny. I don't get it...


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## NoFair (Mar 19, 2007)

I saw them a while ago on Moteng's website... Going from the Gladius to this is really disappointing for Night-Ops 

A Q3 for $100..... Not even hard anodized.. 

Not much competition for NovaTac though

PS! Nice review, just don't like the lights


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## TOOCOOL (Mar 19, 2007)

Not much to see here ,at any price they are not going to excite me :thumbsdow


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## C4LED (Mar 19, 2007)

Are these really.... Night-Ops officially rebranded lights (the first two)...?

In that case I already have a Night-Ops equivalent light (a Q3) that I've had for a couple of years at a fraction of the price!

:laughing:


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## Grubbster (Mar 19, 2007)

Thanks for the reviews luxlover and Joe. The reviews are great and show that a lot of work was put into them. Good job! Can't say I can say the same for the lights though. They would have been quite a hit about a year ago. Today.....


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## MorpheusT1 (Mar 19, 2007)

They can be had for 30-45 bucks depending on model with the nuwaii brand...so im not biting this one..
There is another identical light sold here:




Please give us something in the league of the Gladius.



Benny


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## adirondackdestroyer (Mar 19, 2007)

Well Night Ops just took one huge step back in terms of quality! They better sell these lights cheap as dirt because they are basically just average Chinese lights from 2 or so years ago. Nothing special at all.


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## light_emitting_dude (Mar 19, 2007)

Look like the fake Surefire U2 kinda lights to me. I'm not convinced that they are actually made by night-ops! If they are they sure have taken a step down.


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## DUQ (Mar 19, 2007)

Unfortunately, this looks like the real deal. Take a look--> Strategoss Store


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## light_emitting_dude (Mar 19, 2007)




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## Telkin (Mar 19, 2007)

DUQ said:


> Unfortunately, this looks like the real deal. Take a look--> Strategoss Store



Wow at those prices, that's very disappointing. Was looking forward to seeing a Gladius II.

Great reviews though. :rock:


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## kc2ouf (Mar 19, 2007)

Couldn't Night-Ops rebadge more lights from the company that made the Gladius?


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## McGizmo (Mar 19, 2007)

A path of least resistance rarely covers new and unchartered ground.






It may well be a good path for many to trod upon though.





:yawn:


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## LifeNRA (Mar 19, 2007)

Those are very disappointing.


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## aceo07 (Mar 19, 2007)

Big stumble for Night-Ops. Most of us at CPF have at least seen or owned the 'Ally' lights before. The main body for the PL-1 seems a little different from the Q3, but the head is exactly the same. The PL-3 is exactly like the nuwai flashlight I've had on my shelf for the last 2 years. 

Looks like someone hasn't been doing their homework and just threw something together very very quickly.


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## iocheretyanny (Mar 19, 2007)

I am very suprized at these!
Not even Cree or Seoul - wow...

I hope they do not lose too much money on these...


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## HammerSandwich (Mar 20, 2007)

Damn, is it already April 1?


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## Weskix (Mar 20, 2007)

Wow overpriced junk. Wake up Night Ops, I can buy the same lights at sportsmans warehouse for $24.99. If they were going to rebrand a cheapo chinese light they could have atleast found a new one with a cree or seoul and some HA finish.


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## greenstuffs (Mar 20, 2007)

Thx very much what i was looking for  always wondered how they performed

Don't be surprised they make their tactical gear in vietnam and korea 



MorpheusT1 said:


> Wow,
> 
> I am surprised that Night-Ops want theire name on a Cheap host like Nuwaii..
> I have had a few and they work ok,just not the route i would have gone after the sucess of theire other lights.
> ...


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## mtbkndad (Mar 20, 2007)

When I saw these on the Night-Ops web site some months ago I called Vaughn at Strategos and voiced my concern since I am a regular Strategos customer and currently own 3 Gladiuses, one 9V Falcata, and two 6V Falcata's. I have also persuaded numerous friends to buy Gladiuses.

I felt these were a step back myself and was told none of these lights are made in China or Taiwan. I was also told that they would have significantly better QC and quality of components (electronics, switches, lenses, etc.) then the Nuwai lights that look like them.

So my questions are;

Are there any Made in ________ labels or markings on these lights or their packages?
Are you two familiar with the Nuwai lights that some of these seem to be rebadged models of?
If yes, do they seem to be better quality?
Do these lights have warranties?
If yes, what are the warranties?

Take Care,
mtbkndad :wave:


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## chesterqw (Mar 20, 2007)

wow, nuwai!


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## nein166 (Mar 20, 2007)

I was able to get a hands on with luxlover's 3 lights and must say the RED Conquest was very impressive and I'd love to see the GREEN version. Though I thought the clip on the Sentinel looked like it was straight off the Nuwai. The 2 AA Sentinel looks interesting. Great informative review guys :candle:


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## Mark2 (Mar 20, 2007)

They seem to claim the lights are made in Spain, which means they buy them from Ombu, a spanish company, which has been rebranding Nuwai lights for a long time. I hope Night-Ops realized that they were actually buying Chinese lights when they placed the order... 

Seriously, I would like to note that Ken probably hates this as much as we do, he has done such a good job with the Gladius and is an honest no-nonsense guy, this set of lights is most certainly something the people at Blackhawk came up with, not Night-Ops's idea. However, it's clear that the Night-Ops brand will suffer from these lights, which is sad.


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## jar3ds (Mar 20, 2007)

lol.... poor night op's... nice guys there... just can't understand their logic... they do understand that Luxeon's are completely obsolete now right?  

sad.... take that Gladius electronics and stick it into a smaller, more reliable host....


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## LEDcandle (Mar 20, 2007)

Oops... looks bad... first look, NUWAI screams in my mind. 
No new LEDs too.


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## PhantomPhoton (Mar 20, 2007)

Oh man, those overinflated Nuwai lights are absolutely pitiful. :thumbsdow

I feel sorry for Luxlover putting all that hard work in only to get thread full of disappointed responses about the manufacturer.


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## nimhpwr (Mar 20, 2007)

I have the first one, branded ledwave X-11. Who ever manufactured this thing, don't have a clue about what quality is.:thumbsdow (Emitter badly centered, not regulated, high price, switch broke after a month, surface treatment ..umm, poor pocket clip's attachment, etc..) Now I'm wating my Inova T2 to arrive and looking a couple of fenixes...


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## Mark2 (Mar 20, 2007)

BUT: The lights tested by luxlover seem to have glass lenses and a clickie with momentary function (not a reverse clickie). luxlover, could you confirm this? This would indicate that the lights were actually improved a bit compared to the original models sold under various brand names.

Link to Quickbeam's test of the Nuwai TM-301X-3 (Ally PL-3X?):
http://www.flashlightreviews.com/reviews/nuwai_tm301x3.htm

Link to the Nuwai TM-301X-3 at Amondo (Quite a deal, $42.50 vs. $169.99):
http://www.amondotech.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=816


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## xiaowenzu (Mar 20, 2007)

WARNING TO THREAD STARTER: THESE SO CALLED 'NIGHT-OPS' ARE *NOT* NIGHT-OPS. THEY ARE MERE CHINESE CLONES!!  THEY ARE *FAKE* NIGHT-OPS. EVERYONE PLEASE DON'T BE DECIEVED... THEY ARE AS *FAKE *AS THE *FAKE* SUREFIRE U2.

Everyone with doubts please visit the http://night-ops.com/ website directly. There is *NO *mention of these so called 'new lights', just the Gladius. DON'T BE DECEIVED PEOPLE!


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## luxlover (Mar 20, 2007)

Mark2 said:


> BUT: The lights tested by luxlover seem to have glass lenses and a clickie with momentary function (not a reverse clickie). luxlover, could you confirm this? This would indicate that the lights were actually improved a bit compared to the original models sold under various brand names.............


Mark,
You are correct. The lens on each light is glass. Also, the switch on each light *is a regular clickie, i.e. not a reverse clickie*. The slightly longer throw will allow you to engage momentary-on without accidentally latching the light on with a click. The sound of the clickie is more prominent than most, but the feel of the click on a fingertip is more secure than most, as well.

Jeff


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## doc_felixander (Mar 20, 2007)

@xiaowenzu: have a look at http://www.blackhawk.com/category1.asp?D=D0056&S=S0670&G=&C=&N=1&pricestart=&priceend=

They're Night-Ops branded, but sold by their partner (?) Blackhawk. 
Yet still weird.


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## luigi (Mar 20, 2007)

First of all posts in big capital letters are childish and annoying to other posters, if you have an opinion write it in the same way we write all our stuff you are not better or more informed than any of us in case you don't know.

Second you are completely wrong, they are from Night-Ops, if they are not in the website it is just because they have not updated the website yet, they even announced this lights at Shot Show and many of us commented it was a pity.
The G3 from Surefire, a company that you love so much, was in the stores before they put it in the website. I didn't see you claiming the G3 was a fake.

Third the lights are not fake as the fake U2 they are probably legitimate rebranding from Nuwai or Ombu. In case you don't know a company has the right to buy a batch of bulk lights, do some changes, put their name in the lights and resell them.

Luigi



xiaowenzu said:


> WARNING TO THREAD STARTER: THESE SO CALLED 'NIGHT-OPS' ARE *NOT* NIGHT-OPS. THEY ARE MERE CHINESE CLONES!!  THEY ARE *FAKE* NIGHT-OPS. EVERYONE PLEASE DON'T BE DECIEVED... THEY ARE AS *FAKE *AS THE *FAKE* SUREFIRE U2.
> 
> Everyone with doubts please visit the http://night-ops.com/ website directly. There is *NO *mention of these so called 'new lights', just the Gladius. DON'T BE DECEIVED PEOPLE!


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## jar3ds (Mar 20, 2007)

thanks for clearing that up... i was going to say...............


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## atm (Mar 20, 2007)

Thanks for the reviews guys!

As a big fan of the Gladius I am disappointed in Night-Ops for going down this road. I can't help but wonder if this lowering of standards compared to that set by the innovation and quality of the Gladius/Falcata will now be reflected in everything that comes from them, including future updates to the excellent Gladius.

It seems like a major shift in the whole approach by Night-Ops to selling lights. It's very hard to see them as a genuine competitor for SF now.


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## mtbkndad (Mar 20, 2007)

Okay if these lights are made in Spain, maybe the company in Spain chose to bring it's manufacturing in house. I do know there was litigation going on between Ombu or it's parent company and Nuwai regarding Nuwai's right to continue to make the Q3 looking lights. It was mentioned on the forum some time ago. I also know there was some form of settlement.

Maybe these lights really are improved and come entirely from Spain. All of my other questions still apply and none of them have been answered.

Are you two familiar with the Nuwai (and as another person pointed out LED Wave) lights that some of these seem to be rebadged models of?
If yes, do they seem to be better quality?
Do these lights have warranties?
If yes, what are the warranties?

Can you do comparsion shots between the Night-Ops and the Nuwai/LED Wave lights?
These would included bodies, beamshots, components, etc..

Take Care,
mtbkndad :wave:


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## luxlover (Mar 20, 2007)

mtbkndad said:


> Okay if these lights are made in Spain, maybe the company in Spain chose to bring it's manufacturing in house. I do know there was litigation going on between Ombu or it's parent company and Nuwai regarding Nuwai's right to continue to make the Q3 looking lights. It was mentioned on the forum some time ago. I also know there was some form of settlement.
> 
> Maybe these lights really are improved and come entirely from Spain. All of my other questions still apply and none of them have been answered.
> 
> ...


Sorry for not replying to your questions before.....
> Neither Joe nor I are familiar with either Nuwai or LED Wave lights.
> Neither Joe nor I are aware of any legal maneuvering between Nuwai and Ombu. I am sure that any settlement would have had an impact on the similarities you have seen in the lights.
> From the time we first handled these lights, Joe and I have always agreed that the build quality is very good. I for one, more of a mechanical type than Joe, who is more of an electrical type, always look for poor engineering and manufacturing in a light. We could find no examples of anybody cutting corners or making it cheaply. They are all solidly built.
> All Night-Ops products have a lifetime warranty on everything except batteries and incandescent lamps. In the case of these six lights, the Luxeon emitter is also part of the lifetime warranty.

In my answer to Mark above, it is clear that these lights do not use a reverse clickie switch as do Nuwai lights. I am sure that those who compare the Nuwais with these lights will find other differences beside this.

I would like all those viewing this thread to know that Joe and I (Jeff) do not represent the company in any way. We were not briefed on anything before we did our review or posted our results. But if Joe or I can answer any questions for you that is not accessible anywhere else, we will be happy to do so if we know the answer.......or do what we can to contact the company to find the answer. This is the least we can do as two people who were entrusted with the job of giving our honest opinions about these lights.

Jeff


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## Ken J. Good (Mar 20, 2007)

Don’t let a good story get in the way of the facts! 

I’ve been watching this get lit up by the angry mob. Group dynamics are very interesting, they take on a life of their own.

The internet can be such an awesome place to get good information, but one of the unfortunate downsides is that in some cases, folks with only a partial understanding or complete misunderstanding of the truth end up drowning out all others.

We are not going to over or under-react to some of the outlandish statements in this thread.

Contrary to much of the nonsense displayed here, we (Blackhawk and the Night-Ops Brand) are using a manufacturer in Spain to bring in what we consider our Legacy and Professional Class lights. We are reserving the Warrior Class of our light line for only best of breed offerings. A good, better, best classification of our lights. The lights reviewed here fit into the good and better category.

At Night-Ops, we have a 2-fold strategy. Find trustworthy manufacturers and work with them. Take the existing light(s) we consider high quality and distribute them. Then we work with in conjunction with that same manufacturer to improve their existing lights to create better products. In other words stand on the platform they have created and move from there. 

I for one have been around handheld and weapon mounted lights for quite some time. When I first was approached by the manufacturer of these lights, I did the mental roll of the eyes and said inside “not another one of these guys…” Then I actually scrutinized them. I kept on saying…”These are really nice…..” A relationship was formed and things have been moving in the background until now. There were other lights offered by this manufacturer, but we screened them out and selected what we consider a good mix of good lights for the end-users we serve.

This fits in well to response to our customers’ requests to provide lights that fill a larger space for a broader spectrum of users.

Secondly, we have an in-house “Skunk Works” if you will to create leading edge designs that shake the industry. That is demonstrated in our Gladius, new Xiphos XT pistol light, and several new systems that will be manifested in due time.

I for one, love breaking the box and prefer Porches to VW’s. 

Just an FYI, we conceived, designed, prototyped, manufactured and released the Gladius in-house. We later out-sourced the manufacturing to another defense products company who is now licensed to release the same light under their brand. It is a common strategic practice among companies. 

When you start your own company and make you own lights, you can do whatever you want.

You goal might be: American made, Chinese pricing, Leading edge with a full compliment of lights to meet everybody’s need within the first 2 months of your operation. 

Having established manufacturers with years of experience and possessing their own internal drive to create new things independent of our same-speak and having our own in-house manufacturing simply gives us a broader base from which to create and distribute. Not everything Night-Ops is going to distribute is going to come strictly from the internal pipeline. Not everything is going to be earth shattering.

It was interesting when we released the Gladius. The cry from the angry mob was; “This is too complicated, it is too expensive…. The strobe is a marketing gimmick!....All we want is a simple ON/OFF light!”

Now the cry is” We don’t want a simple light, we want a Gladius II with a Cree emitter!!!”.

Okay then….

Patience my friends, patience. All in due time. 

I will leave with this: Comparing these particular lights to the Nuwai lights is mistake. Nuwai has been sued for design patent violations and their importers are facing litigation as well. One by one, they are being shut down and addressed. 

It is always a battle for manufacturers to deal with a plethora of Chinese knock-off artists that morph from one location to the next. They are an evasive cancer. It is easier to steal than innovate.

If you actually handle these lights, break them down component-by-component, see the output you will note the intrinsic quality and value…

You want to buy something else, click the button on your keyboard, throw down your credit card and vote that way.

The customer chooses.


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## PhantomPhoton (Mar 20, 2007)

@ Blackhawk et al

Well I'm glad to see that there are improvements to the design. Glass lens and forward clickie. But I don't think even after the initial outrage that CPFers will appreciate a Luxeon 1 Light for $99 MSRP. A Lux 3 for $164.99? Maybe two years ago for a premium bin and tint. 

Now if this light were fitted with a more efficient Cree/ SSC everything would be fine and dandy. But there will be no competition with less expensive Chinese lights (which are using genuine crees with more complicated UIs) and still no competition for Surefire, especially after June. Surefire prices for below Chinese performance? So what segment of the market are you aiming these underperforming/ overinflated lights at? I'll leave this train of thought here to avoid getting nasty.

Other than the improved clicky and the glass lens, what else makes this light worth the money compared to it's nuwai step brother? The Nuwais are regulated, and have a good beam even on whitewall. Are these lights waterproof down to 10 meters and tougher than an HDS then? I don't get it.


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## TigerhawkT3 (Mar 20, 2007)

Why would anyone buy this new LuxIII light instead of the Gladius (well, except for the "This is too complicated, it is too expensive…. The strobe is a marketing gimmick!....All we want is a simple ON/OFF light!” crowd... I apologize for the mixed messages you're getting)? If it's simpler, shouldn't it be cheaper?

Mr. Good, there are some suggestions for the next Gladius in this thread: https://www.candlepowerforums.com/posts/1795430. I think if you produced something like that in-house, like you did for the Gladius, you'd have a lot of happy customers on your hands!

It's always nice to see you around here, Mr. Good. The Gladius (with FM34, of course) is my favorite flashlight - thanks so much!


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## Mark2 (Mar 20, 2007)

Ken, thank you for your long an enlightening post! Do you mind answering the following questions:


Where are the bodies of these lights machined?
Where are the electronics of these lights manufactured?
Where are these lights assembled?
and

Are you saying that Ombu initially designed and manufactured these lights and their predecessors in Spain and Nuwai then stole the design and produced inferior clones in China?

Thank you very much for your answers, and also for the Gladius, still the best tactical light for close quarter applications available today IMHO.


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## xiaowenzu (Mar 20, 2007)

doc_felixander said:


> @xiaowenzu: have a look at http://www.blackhawk.com/category1.asp?D=D0056&S=S0670&G=&C=&N=1&pricestart=&priceend=
> 
> They're Night-Ops branded, but sold by their partner (?) Blackhawk.
> Yet still weird.



Yep, it's hell weird!! I would not buy 'em re'branded ones. It's like buying re-constituted orange juice. Lol


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## Ken J. Good (Mar 20, 2007)

The certificate of origin for these lights is Spain. We've been there on site.
I am not willing to give the public on an open forum, the details of every part/process/strategy for the Night-Ops lights. I disclose enough.

The lights we offering with this release are Ombu Designs. If somebody wants to buy a Chinese clone at a cheaper price, despite the fact they have been informed they are a result of somebody else's design and effort, that is their decision.

In today's E-bay, clone, knock-off world, create a website in 10 minutes, it makes rougher waters for manufacturers making the investment and dealers that actually do the advertising and face-to-face/relationship marketing with customers.

As stated, we will work with our manufacturers and you will see the line continually move forward. We are acutely aware of the latest greatest emitters and there is a natural migration path for us.

We are not a custom shop making a few hundred lights. We have stock and materials that will be moved to make room for the cooler stuff.


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## luigi (Mar 20, 2007)

Can you please clarify something very simple that doesn't requiere many details:
We had the idea that Ombu was a rebranded version of Nuwai.
Do you say Nuwai is a copy of Ombu? If so then why did Nuwai appear BEFORE Ombu lights ?

Thanks for your explanations!


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## Kiessling (Mar 20, 2007)

Ombu was around for some time now, but just not that prominent. IIRC it was them who copied the intial Arc LS down to the circuit board and some guys who wanted to import those clones (made by Ombu in Spain it was said)into the US had been sued or threatened in this regard by Mr. Gransee back then. 
IIRC it was some nasty little clone affair during a time where such things weren't that common in our little flashlight paradise.

In Germany we saw some Ombu designs sold by globetrotter including this Arc clone, but they are mostly gone now.

bernie


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## Sigman (Mar 20, 2007)

Nice post Ken, indeed glad you posted! Thanks!


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## DUQ (Mar 20, 2007)

Thak you for replying Ken.


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## flashy bazook (Mar 20, 2007)

interesting thread, I'm glad it's been posted and I got to read it, even though I do not own nor do I intend to buy a gladius at present.

in the company's defence, I thought that the red and green LED lights did seem a cut above many similar lights, in that they give a (manufacturer estimated) high lumen count of 85 - most often you get the red or green light but in a very underpowered LED design (or as a secondary weak LED backup).

also the design was not unattractive, if the build quality were to indeed prove solid.

on the other hand, I am also glad many knowledgeable posters did draw comparisons with certain other brands which were indeed illuminating.

finally, I think this endless "cheap Chinese knockoff" references are getting tiresome, there are plenty of excellent Chinese manufacturers out there that are pushing the envelope, many other US-based (and not only) companies would be taking forever to introduce new technology if Fenix and co's weren't outcompeting them and forcing them therefore to innovate.


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## GarageBoy (Mar 20, 2007)

I handled the lights today, feel very well made, not nuwai-ish F&F wise


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## greenstuffs (Mar 20, 2007)

Can't believe their retail value, a glorified $20 flashlight. Thats pretty evil taking advantage of people who don't know about the latest LED technology.


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## jsr (Mar 21, 2007)

I'm curious to know more about the history of Nuwai and Ombu. Interesting stuff.


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## chesterqw (Mar 21, 2007)

i would say that they are using they fame of the gladius to sell this lights.


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## mtbkndad (Mar 21, 2007)

luxlover,

Thanks for the answers. 
A lifetime warranty sounds great.
These lights would certainly have to be made better then Nuwai products for Night-Ops to back them with a warranty like that.

I stopped buying Nuwai products because of their poor QC and what seems to be their make it cheap so it can be sold cheap mentality. Does Nuwai even offer any warranty on their lights?



Ken J. Good,

It was nice to see your post. I look forward to your next Warrior class lights to come out. 


Food for thought for everybody,

Companies like Surefire and Night-Ops that sell to military & public safety personel do at times seem to be at a disadvantage to companies like Lumapower, Huntlight and others that don't seem have these as primary markets.

Lumapower, Huntlight and others can afford to put products out quicker and find out what needs to be changed and use places like CPF for free R & D.

Companies like Surefire, Night-Ops, Streamlight, Pelican, Pentagon light, etc. really need to be sure their lights are as close to 100% as possible before sending them into the hands of people that come into harms way on our behalf.
A light that is not the latest and greatest, but is bright enough and built rock solid is better then a light that has components that are still being tested in the marketplace for reliability issues.

Two lights that I am rarely without are my Nightcutter M60L and my Gladius.
Neither were even close to being my brightest lights when I got them.
Both have proven to be very capable and reliable.
They simply are bright enough for what I need them for.

I don't seek to make any comments about the new lights since I have not personally seen them. Other then I really like the green LED model.

Take Care,
mtbkndad :wave:


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## xiaowenzu (Mar 21, 2007)

mtbkndad said:


> Companies like Surefire and Night-Ops that sell to military & public safety personel do at times seem to be at a disadvantage to companies like Lumapower, Huntlight and others that don't seem have these as primary markets.



Nice post there. Let me just add that *All *these companies you mention (from Surefire to Fenix) that provide flashlights to the niche market are at disadvantage to companies like *Maglite 
*which sells their lights like hot-cakes to mass global market. Mags are the Walmart of lights. :laughing: This is probably due to Mags being the first maker to establish a base, so to speak. The first company to come out with products are always first in the eyes of the consumer.

However I think Surefire and Night-ops are making a _very_ healthy profit selling their 'military' lights to enforcement agencies around the world. Their profit far exceeds all those Chinese makers combined together, simply because they sell more and sell *for *more.


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## easilyled (Mar 21, 2007)

I can't see these lights catching on with CPF at all.

They look exactly the same style as the Nuwai Q3 which is two years
old. 

Its big and clunky for a CR123 light compared with what's 
available now, scratches easily due to being non HA and in addition
doesn't have Cree or Seoul led's. 

As to whether Ombu or Nuwai or anyone else designed the original
prototype, who cares seriously?

Night-Ops need to take a proper look at what's on the market now
and the retail prices. 

They have completely failed to do so with these products.


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## luxlover (Mar 21, 2007)

I have been waiting until now to write something about what has been happening after I "lovingly" submitted the review composed by Joe and myself. I am well aware that no matter what I write, I, as the poster, will be looked upon as a "Night-Ops Fly Boy/Fan Boy", or a stooge of the company. Some may even think that when Night-Ops says "JUMP", I will immediately ask "HOW HIGH!" This is not true of me, nor is it true of Night-Ops. They have been most respectful of me as a beta tester...... and as a person. There has never been a push or a shove from them, on any level.

This was not my first evaluation of Night-Ops products prior to their release. Last January, I did a runtime evaluation of their Falcata 6V ad 9V incandescent lights, with the aid of my LM-631 luxmeter. Fellow CPF member _JasonC8301_ assisted me. The first thing that the company told us before we started, was to be honest and let whatever we find about the lights, good or bad, be presented. That is what Jason and I did then.....and this is what Joe and I did now.

Of all the posting I have read, the one sentence that is most meaningful to me, which I think should be stressed, is that made by Ken J Good in post #42. He said "If you actually handle these lights, break them down component-by-component, see the output you will note the intrinsic quality and value…" Although the Ally and Sentinel have their heads locked to the body and I was not able to break them free (so far!), I did disassemble the head of the Conquest PL-3-RED to it's elemental parts (as did Joe with his GREEN Conquest), and did my own cleaning and lubricating to make them "Luxlover Approved!" The head is solidly constructed, and the workmanship is flawless. There was no dust, lint or fingerprints on the reflector or lens on any of the lights, which means that they must be assembling them in some type of clean room environment. I recall that whenever I opened any light for maintenance in my apartment on the 11th floor of a 23 story building, if I so much as "looked at it the wrong way " then I would see dust where there was none before. Rarely have I seen a light that has no dust inside the head straight from the factory, regardless of price, notoriety of the manufacturer or complexity of design.

I admit that these lights are simple, but that does not make them bad. They are not for everybody, and no light can ever be! My local CPF buddies _garageboy_ and _nein166_ (both have posted in this thread) have had them in their hands, and commented that they are very nice lights, are solidly constructed and put out a very clean white uniform beam pattern with absolutely no artifacts or projection of die wires. Oh, there is no donut hole either......even at "point blank range." Did I mention the "light orange peel" coating on the deeply dished reflector, as a means of smoothing out the beam? You can see this in the beamshots of the review.

The more I examine these lights, looking for negatives as I always do, the more I am disappointed that I can't seem to find any! I always look for the negative in manufactured items to see how it can be made better, and I have the background to qualify this habit. I have been a board/AutoCAD drafter since 1978, and have worked with more mechanical products in 29 years than most people have tackled in a lifetime. Working at the location of over 51 different engineering based companies does wonderful things toward the understanding of "how and why things work!"

In closing, my advice to all those doubting the integrity of the new lights is to "somehow" get to a local brick and mortar store that happens to be a Blackhawk dealer, and examine them for yourself. They will be at those locations anyday now, if they are not there already. If that is not possible, instead of rejecting these lights as you have done here, wait until CPF members acquire them and post their ownership experiences. Then draw your own conclusions based on their comments. That is the ONLY "fair" way to approach this matter. Give them a chance to demonstrate their merit!

Jeff


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## easilyled (Mar 21, 2007)

Jeff, I have absoloutely no doubt that everything you have said is
correct and you have put a lot of time and effort into writing a very
good and thorough review which hopefully we all appreciate.

This still does not get away from the facts that the lights are
old fashioned, not HA and use old technology. They are not cheap either.

This is just not satisfactory to me and most other CPFers I suspect.


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## atm (Mar 21, 2007)

easilyled said:


> This still does not get away from the facts that the lights are old fashioned, not HA and use old technology.


Agreed. These are not characteristics I expected in newly released Night-Ops lights. This has more to do with my perception of Night-Ops than anything else though, not realising that "good" and "better" were also part of the company philosophy having only experienced the in-house products.

Thanks for explaining things Ken, it's good to see you back on the boards. I look forward to your future in-house products.


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## luigi (Mar 21, 2007)

Assuming the lights have been improved to Surefireish quality from the Nuwai design, something that I seriously doubt, even then the specs per price ratio is really impossible to understand. When I saw the estimated prices in the Shot Show Report I thought it was an error but now I'm perplexed.

Luigi


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## Nyctophiliac (Mar 21, 2007)

I've always liked the design of the Q3!

Interesting what Ken J. Good says about Ombu vs Nuwai. Wonder if we'll ever know.

Anyone checked the new lights advertised by www.brite-strike.com? Take a look at their "only to LEO" 'Protector' series...

I'm sure I've seen that design before somewhere.

What can be going on.

Read the article on Flashlightnews.



Be lucky...



PS - Love the design and look of the 'Blue Dot' series though.


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## GJW (Mar 21, 2007)

luxlover said:


> The first thing that the company told us before we started, was to be honest and let whatever we find about the lights, good or bad, be presented. That is what Jason and I did then.....and this is what Joe and I did now.]



I would have thought it obvious that making no mention at all of the lights obvious similarities to some of the most recognizable lights around would lead to [fill in the blank] speculation by others.
A lot of good will could have been earned or lost in this, most CPFers first exposure to these new lights, and in that respect I think you have done yourself and Night-Ops a disservice.


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## AZLight (Mar 21, 2007)

mtbkndad said:


> luxlover,
> 
> Thanks for the answers.
> A lifetime warranty sounds great.
> ...



From my experience with Chinese manufacturers it is possible that those that pass quality inspections are shipped to Ombu, Gladius, etc. The quality reject lights (seconds due to one reason or another) are then being resold as the house brand. All lights are priced accordingly.

Streamlight, Inova, and HDS customer services have been top notch for me in the past on some of their Made In China lights. I don't mind paying more for a lifetime warranty.


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## luxlover (Mar 21, 2007)

GJW said:


> I would have thought it obvious that making no mention at all of the lights obvious similarities to some of the most recognizable lights around would lead to [fill in the blank] speculation by others.
> 
> A lot of good will could have been earned or lost in this, most CPFers first exposure to these new lights, and in that respect I think you have done yourself and Night-Ops a disservice.


GJW,
In my post above, #41, I answered one of mtbkndad's question with "> Neither Joe nor I are familiar with either Nuwai or LED Wave lights." This means that neither Joe nor I knew of any lights to which we could compare our samples. We are innocent of withholding information about similar lights on the market. If I have not understood your point, please clarify it!

Jeff


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## GJW (Mar 21, 2007)

Your post #41 was edited after my posting and the original had a double-negative implying that you *were* familiar with the other lights.
That is how I took it and that is what prompted my comment.
I stand corrected on your correction.


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## luxlover (Mar 21, 2007)

GJW said:


> Your post #41 was edited after my posting and the original had a double-negative implying that you *were* familiar with the other lights.
> That is how I took it, and that is what prompted my comment.
> I stand corrected on your correction.


Very good that we cleared that up. Your perception was correct pertaining to my wording *before* I changed it. I must have experienced a brain fart when I wrote it. You can see how a minor error can create a problem. I must be more careful from now on.

Therefore, I stand corrected on your correction of my correction. :laughing:

Jeff


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## mtbkndad (Mar 21, 2007)

AZLight said:


> From my experience with Chinese manufacturers it is possible that those that pass quality inspections are shipped to Ombu, Gladius, etc. The quality reject lights (seconds due to one reason or another) are then being resold as the house brand. All lights are priced accordingly.
> 
> Streamlight, Inova, and HDS customer services have been top notch for me in the past on some of their Made In China lights. I don't mind paying more for a lifetime warranty.



I agree about the lifetime warranty and paying more. I know what you are saying about Chinese manufacturers sending different quality products to different companies based on those companies requirements, but in this case it does not even seem to be an issue.
This is because the Night-Ops lights are being made in Spain and not China. 


Take Care,
mtbkndad


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## jtr1962 (Mar 22, 2007)

So far I've been a "silent partner" in this thread but I want to state for the record that these are NOT cheaply made clone lights. The beam quality and tint are excellent-about the best I've seen in a production light so far. The lights are also quite durable. I've been using my Sentinal PL-1 AA regularly since the testing. Thanks to my carpal tunnel syndrome, I've unfortunately dropped it a few dozen times, sometimes on my concrete driveway. It didn't flinch once, and still works flawlessly. It also looks none the worse for wear.

While I agree these lights may not be groundbreaking, I know from personal experience that products designed to cope with the daily rigors of a hostile environment rarely are. Those who put their lives on the line can't afford to be beta testers for new and unproven technology. Even in non-life threatening situations, industrial strength equipment is seldom cutting edge. Just look at enterprise level hard drives, for example. They are usually a generation or two behind their home/office counterparts in areal density precisely because they need to work day in and day out using tried and proven technology. So it is with these lights. Also note that if I found any glaring negatives in the construction or performance of these lights, I wouldn't have hesitated to say so. What we have here are lights which will perform day in and day out under harsh conditions. And all who have handled them personally seem to agree with that assessment.


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## aceo07 (Mar 22, 2007)

I'm disappointed in where this thread is heading.


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## Barbarin (Mar 22, 2007)

For ANY manufacturer is a temptation to have things done in Asia. Not too many customers do appreciate the effort of having things done at home, specially when cost is three or four times higher.


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## easilyled (Mar 22, 2007)

For all that the lights may be Nuwai's "better" Q3 lights passed on to Ombu
and that they are durable, I would be looking for something more when
I am buying a new light.

Firstly it would *have* to have a Seoul/Cree emitter in it. Nearly all the new
production lights do now. These are about twice as bright as luxeon 3W 
leds but are still retailing at very affordable prices so there is no excuse
not to provide them. 

I understand that old stock has to move, but I don't want to aid in that
process, sorry.

Secondly, it needs to have something a little different from the same design
that's been around for years.

I already have a Nuwai Q3 that I put a mineral glass lens on and upgraded
to a Seoul. I spent far less in total on this (including the upgrade)
than the asking price for the Q3 lookalike here. However I have a light
that's probably twice as bright (it measured 132 lumens). 
Its also durable and reliable like 95% of the lights that I have owned.
I've had it for over 2 years and there's never been a problem.

Let's draw an analogy with buying cars.....

Suppose Ford or VW brought out a model reminiscent of those
a few generations back and also lacked all the mod cons of the current
models, yet were charging more than their competitors, would anyone
be that interested?

Sorry, but the instinctive reaction would be "You must be joking!"


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## mtbkndad (Mar 22, 2007)

easilyled,

Your example above is not complete and to the extent it is not complete you are not being fair. It would only be complete if one of these automakers found a way to improve the old model enough to give it a Lifetime Warranty and then charged modern prices.
I think any auto that gets the job done and comes with a Lifetime Warranty is worth looking at  , even if it's design is not the latest and greatest in terms of what is currently being sold in the new car marktet.

Once again, I have not seen these lights. I just do not want to proclaim them bad before actually using any of them. That is just not fair. I may never get one since I definitely tend to buy "Warrior Class" items anyway.
That still does not change the fact that I refuse to pass judgement on them until I actually have a chance to see them in person.



Take Care,
mtbkndad :wave:


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## luigi (Mar 22, 2007)

aceo07 said:


> I'm disappointed in where this thread is heading.



Why? I'm learning many things from this.

Luigi


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## aceo07 (Mar 22, 2007)

While Lifetime warranty is great, I doubt I would ever make use of it. I have never really needed a warranty on any of the items I've bought. Unless they cover theft or loss, then it's not a real seller for me. Instead of going for the higher price, I could just buy a replacement or a flashlight. Probably quicker to buy a replacement then to wait for warranty service.

I never thought of the Q3 quality as being poor at all. It was sturdy and a great value for the price. While the Q3 has been improved in construction, I still do not think it justifies the much bigger price. The clickie improvement shouldn't cost much, nor the glass or anything else.

I highly doubted that any long time CPF member would NOT be familiar with the Nuwai Q3, so I double checked. https://www.candlepowerforums.com/posts/1100947&postcount=29


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## luxlover (Mar 22, 2007)

mtbkndad said:


> easilyled,
> Your example above is not complete and to the extent it is not complete you are not being fair. It would only be complete if one of these automakers found a way to improve the old model enough to give it a Lifetime Warranty and then charged modern prices.
> 
> I think any auto that gets the job done and comes with a Lifetime Warranty is worth looking at  , even if it's design is not the latest and greatest in terms of what is currently being sold in the new car market.
> ...


Joe and I appreciate your suggestion that all viewers of this thread reserve judgment for now. As I stated in a post above, to be totally "fair" to the lights viewers should arrange for a hands-on examination of them, should wait for the comments of users, or should wait for a formal evaluation by one of CPF's respected reviewers.

Jeff


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## easilyled (Mar 22, 2007)

mtbkndad said:


> easilyled,
> 
> Your example above is not complete and to the extent it is not complete you are not being fair. It would only be complete if one of these automakers found a way to improve the old model enough to give it a Lifetime Warranty and then charged modern prices.
> 
> ...



Hi mtbkndad,
:wave: 

Actually I think that you are being slightly unfair expecting any analogy to
be able to be completely equivalent. 

I was using it to make a point about regressive style and technology
not being likely to catch on. (unless you like antiques)

I really don't believe you'd go back to a Ford Escort without alloy wheels,
satellite navigation, climate control etc., if you could have all that in
a Ford Focus for less money, even if the Ford Escort had a lifetime warantee,
and the Ford Focus didn't. 

Why would you want the Escort if it could only go at half the speed,
and didn't make you feel special in it, even if it rumbled along forever?

As far as reserving judgment, what is this being reserved for? ....

My reaction was to the facts already presented by the review.

One of the purposes of a review is to make me question whether the
reviewed article would be one I desire or not. This has helped me
make up my mind by irrefutable facts that I don't need to reserve
any judgement for.

ie. non-HA ... non-Cree ... non-Seoul ... old design.


----------



## luxlover (Mar 22, 2007)

aceo07 said:


> While Lifetime warranty is great, I doubt I would ever make use of it. I have neve





aceo07 said:


> r really needed a warranty on any of the items I've bought. Unless they cover theft or loss, then it's not a real seller for me. Instead of going for the higher price, I could just buy a replacement or a flashlight. Probably quicker to buy a replacement then to wait for warranty service.
> 
> I never thought of the Q3 quality as being poor at all. It was sturdy and a great value for the price.  While the Q3 has been improved in construction, I still do not think it justifies the much bigger price. The clickie improvement shouldn't cost much, nor the glass or anything else.
> 
> I highly doubted that any long time CPF member would NOT be familiar with the Nuwai Q3, so I double checked. https://www.candlepowerforums.com/posts/1100947&postcount=29



Nice find! Indeed that was my post. Indeed I am "familiar" with the Nuwai Q3.  Nevertheless, I have not examined one to this day.The following was extracted from the post . My comment about it being a "super duper dollar value" was based on comments I read on CPF and those of my acquaintances who owned the light.
"I am sure that none of us are purposely deluding ourselves by thinking that a QIII is not a _great super duper dollar value_. It is, just like you stated. So why do we insist on buying an HDS light instead of chancing that our first QIII buy will last a lifetime? I think it is that a QIII has only a 90 day warranty, rendering it ALMOST A DISPOSABLE LIGHT."
I can see your point that a lifetime warranty is overkill in your case, and that you would rather pay less for a a short warranty or none and replace the light when it dies. But consider that 90 days is a short period of time for any consumer product, and most of us would like to be confident that the company that makes the light _is also confident _of it's integrity. If a product offers only 90 days of company confidence, then how are we to feel about that product after 90 days? Along with a short warranty period, comes the belief that the product will not be reliable, and may fail us at any time. I think that the better the warranty for a product, the greater the "perception" that it will be reliable. 

If an end user of a product uses it in life threatening situations, then the product with the longest warranty will _most probably_ have the lowest failure rate. Obviously, your use of lights is not in this category, and it doesn't matter to you if a light fails.....or not. Then again, a smart flashaholic _will plan on a light failing_, and have a few backup lights in case it does. You brought up a good point, that maybe a lifetime warranty is not necessary for every end user. Have you ever asked yourself if there is a direct relationship between reliability and warranty? In my life I have observed that it usually is directly proportional, and although I don't need my lights to work in life threatening situations.....I still want them to demonstrate the companiy's confidence in it, and have that confidence last almost "forever!" That's a long time!

Jeff


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## luxlover (Mar 22, 2007)

easilyled said:


> Hi mtbkndad,
> :wave:
> 
> Actually I think that you are being slightly unfair expecting any analogy to
> ...


The bottom line of your post is valid reason for you to NOT reserve judgment! You clearly stated that a light that doesn't have an HAIII finish, doesn't use a higher efficiency Cree or Seoul emitter and has old design characteristics, is not a light you would be happy to own. You are a man who knows himself, and that is a respectable quality.

Mtbkndad meant that those who read the review and think that the lights are not of high quality, or rather higher quality than those to which they have been compared, should reserve judgment until they get more feedback. As for all those who feel like you do, they have already made the decision not to own these lights.

Jeff


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## easilyled (Mar 22, 2007)

Jeff,

With all due respect one could use your argument about a lifetime
warrantee a completely different way. 

One could argue that the Nuwai Q3 didn't need a lifetime warrantee
because it wasn't anticipated that it would fail in the first place.

Maybe Night-Ops are worried that these lights may fail?

I think you are clutching at straws here.

The term "lifetime" warrantee is usually meaningless anyway - If Night-Ops
is bought out or sold, this warrantee won't apply and therefore won't
be "lifetime".

Your notion of taking one flashlight and using it in a "life and death" situation
sounds a bit fanciful to me too.

If it was that important, then I wouldn't be using "non-warrior class" lights
anyway.

If the light broke down while I was being fatally attacked, the "lifetime
warranty" would be scant consolation.


----------



## luxlover (Mar 22, 2007)

easilyled said:


> Jeff,
> With all due respect one could use your argument about a lifetime
> warrantee a completely different way.
> 
> ...


We obviously differ on what we think is the driving force behind a company's selection of warranty period duration. This post was intended to showcase six lights of which Joe and I think very highly. I am not willing to philosophize about how a company impliments their perception of their products. Let's utilize our intellectual energy in a better way. By me bowing out of this conversation gracefully, this in no way should be looked upon as a sign that I am in agreement with you. It just means that it is not that important a subject matter for me. This is not to say that I don't appreciate your input.

Having phone and email contact with the guys at Night-Ops almost daily, I can tell you that they are watching the development of this thread with great interest, and are taking each poster's comments seriously. This doesn't mean that the lights will be redesigned to suit the masses, or that they feel that the reputation of their lights has been tainted before they are even in the hands of the consumer market.

Jeff


----------



## easilyled (Mar 22, 2007)

No problem Jeff. I appreciate that you are in a difficult position having
done the review for these lights.

I also don't take it as a sign of weakness that you don't wish to continue
this debate.

I hope that my criticisms will be considered to be constructive and not
because I want to win an argument or to prove a point.

I want my fellow CPFers to realise that there are other manufacturers
out there offering very high quality, reliable lights while also utilising
cutting edge technology and all at very reasonable prices.

Lumapower is a prime example of this but there are many others too.

Perhaps Night-Ops may also benefit from this by taking a look
at the products on offer from their rivals and trying to match their
own products to customer expectations.


----------



## who (Mar 22, 2007)

I am a newbie in this forum, but an old timer in flashlight usage models , dating back to the early 70’s, real life and death situations in a famous conflict in Southeast Asia. I enjoy the debate, especially from easilyled.


----------



## Marcus Aurelius (Mar 22, 2007)

I post here with some trepidation but I have read all the posts and I can see both sides. From the standpoint of Night-Ops I can see why they would want to use the design of the Q-III. I love that design; I know that others do too. It is attractive. So making a high quality version with a better switch etc., might be a good idea. Similarly, not all consumers will be as knowledgeable about their options as CPF members. So they may see these lights and be as attracted to them as much as I was to my Q-III when I first bought it. I can also see some sense in their price point and choice to use the old Lux IIIs. If this brand has greater penetration into brick and mortar retailers then they may reach consumers who will pay that price. The popularity of these lights on the net is a kind of informal market research for them. And if they have a backlog of older Lux IIIs they may want to unload them. From a business standpoint, I can see all of this. 

At the same time, I agree entirely with the criticisms that have been made here. An old Lux III for this price without HA III is not a good value and does not win the confidence of knowledgeable consumers. In that sense, I thought that Ken's post put too much emphasis on what he can get away with from a business standpoint and not enough emphasis on the concerns of the people who frequent CPF, namely, what his company is doing to innovate and to give knowledgeable consumers a high-quality product that blows away the competition. In that sense, although I can understand the introduction of these lights from a business standpoint, I don't think that it is a particularly good business decision.

Personally, I would not buy one of these lights. For the price, I would go for a SureFire. If they had the new generation LEDs, I might consider it. If they had a high quality HA III and a Cree, I might actually do it, since I would love to have a higher quality Q-III with a good HA-III and a Cree. As it is, I'm about to mod my Q-III with a SSC P4. 

One last point. It is interesting to contrast the introduction of these lights, at this price, with the new $500 SureFire Titan. That is a ton of money for a key chain flashlight. But look at the quality, the innovative features--you pay to be on the cutting edge. That, to me, is smart business. What Night-Ops is doing is more like a page out of Ron Popeil's book. Just my humble 2 cents.


----------



## luxlover (Mar 22, 2007)

easilyled said:


> No problem Jeff. I appreciate that you are in a difficult position having done the review for these lights.
> 
> I also don't take it as a sign of weakness that you don't wish to continue
> this debate.
> ...


Thank you for a pleasant post. When I wrote this post, I didn't think that everybody would be writing "these lights are the greatest things since white bread!" I had no idea what to expect. Although most comments are not positive, at least nobody has had to post *BUMP* yet. :naughty: The thread is moving slowly, and I hope that if it slows down further that it will pick up again as soon as the lights are "on the street!"

There is nothing that you have been writing that could be taken in a bad way. Freedom of speech is a wonderful thing, as long as the speech doesn't become abusive. All posters have been pretty decent, and I am thankful for that.

Whatever is best for the most people, is the right path for you to take. The business of discussing these new lights should blossom as soon as somebody acquires them. I am looking forward to that as much as anybody else, and I say that as one who already thinks that they are fine lighting tools. I am sure that even though Joe and I have had our hands on these lights before any of you, except other beta testers, we will learn something new from the experiences others will have as owners.

I am sure that when Night-Ops decided to offer these lights, they had already done the proper research to evaluate their competition. I can't imagine the release of no less than six LED based lights on a whim!

Jeff


----------



## luxlover (Mar 22, 2007)

who said:


> I am a newbie in this forum, but an old timer in flashlight usage models , dating back to the early 70’s, real life and death situations in a famous conflict in Southeast Asia. I enjoy the debate, especially from easilyled.



Welcome newbie "who?" Sorry that easilyled and I have called a truce in our debate. You will have to start another debate with somebody, to keep your intellectual juices flowing! 

I, being one who avoided Viet Nam because it ended before my lottery number was called, very much enjoy stories of lights in action other than shining them against lily white walls!  I am not confining this to war use. There are many threads dedicated to the real life experiences of flashlight use. Maybe when the lights become available, some of those stories can be shared.

Jeff


----------



## mtbkndad (Mar 23, 2007)

easilyled said:


> Hi mtbkndad,
> :wave:
> 
> Actually I think that you are being slightly unfair expecting any analogy to
> ...




Hi easyled,

Don't blame be because you came up with a bad example again  .
A Ford Escort that only goes half speed would be fine for me as a go to the supermarket high mileage easy to park car. I would feel great that I am not driving my 1 ton Dodge Van for these mundane trips  . I would really feel great if that same Ford Escort was guaranteed for life  .
However your example would only be fair again if the Ford Escort could go full speed per it's original speed limit and just not as fast as the current models. 

I have lots of LED lights from single 5mm to multi LED monsters and use all of them. If I need loads of real bright light I pull out one of my 9 soon to be 10 HID's. If I need medium light my Mag85 does fine. I use all of my lights. One of my favorites is a 1 watt Chinese prototype I was given several years ago. It will never be upgraded because it is a perfect around the house light.

Clearly if you do not want any light that does not have a SSC P4 or Cree then these new Night-Ops light are not for you. I have already stated that I am looking forward to buying future Warrior Class products from Night-Ops.
I also own most of the LumaPower line too, so I do appreciate the power of Cree and SSC P4's.

Just because the new lights don't meet my personal needs does not mean that Night-Ops should not be selling them. I have a Pelican 1 watt M6 that is a wonderful light. I don't think it is any less useful since Cree's came out.

Jeff interpreted my post correctly. Just because there are new more powerful LED's does not mean all less powerful LED lights are now "low quality" and any light that has them is "low quality". It may mean that you are not interested in them. If that is the case then just say that. 
If you think they are over priced, say that too.

But don't make ridiculous statements like Nuwai does not offer lifetime warranties because their lights are too good to need them. I have two Q3's in my wardrobe with LED's that fell apart. Two 5 watt Nuwai's that have terrible beams and ridiculously hard switches to push. I would not have known their beams were terrible had I not bought one that had a great beam first. I would not have known how bad the QC of their switches was if I did not indeed aquired 6 different Nuwai lights.

Companies give lifetime warranties because the believe in their products.
Many companies may count on people not taking advantage of the warranty, but I have great confidence in Night-Ops.

Take Care,
mtbkndad :wave:


----------



## woodrow (Mar 23, 2007)

To most companies who produce a product, the bottom line question simply has to be...did all our research and development produce a product people will buy in the numbers we need them to buy them. 

These may be vastly differnt numbers for differn't companies. Rolex may not sell as many of a certian type of watch as Seiko, but Seiko may sell 25 times more of a certian watch than Rolex and not hit its target goal while Rolex did.

My point is, that while I TRUELY do wish Night Ops the very highest level of success, I have to wonder if they have ANY chance of hitting a target goal with these lights. When I saw them for sale (before I ever read this thread tonight) at LA Police...I immediatly was attracted to them BECAUSE of their price...I thought these must be some well made Bright lights. When I did a little research on them (the night ops site was not very helpful) I could not spend the money.

For all the challanges that those who have been hostile in this thread have received, those posting should remember one thing. Often the loudest critics are simply fans who rightfully expected better.

I had a good day at work. (which for me means people bought the products I was selling so I have some extra money) I would love to send a few hundred dollars to Night-Ops. I like others, I am just dissapointed that I cannot justify sending them even $100 for any of their new lights. I think most other potential buyers will vote with their funds the same way.

Many of us 'traitors' (to surefire ect...) are buying Chinese not because they are cheaper, but because they are the only ones playing the game at the next level. I would love to see the American companies step up and really play todays game, not just yesterdays.


----------



## mtbkndad (Mar 23, 2007)

woodrow said:


> To most companies who produce a product, the bottom line question simply has to be...did all our research and development produce a product people will buy in the numbers we need them to buy them.
> 
> These may be vastly differnt numbers for differn't companies. Rolex may not sell as many of a certian type of watch as Seiko, but Seiko may sell 25 times more of a certian watch than Rolex and not hit its target goal while Rolex did.
> 
> ...



You have made several good points.
I think one of the biggest price problems with the lights is that the Licensed Gladius, which is a "Warrior Class" light is selling for $159.
I never said I, as a consumer, am comfortable with the list prices of these lights. I have not taken the time to find out what their selling prices will be. I think with the selling price of an official licensed Gladius at $159.
The list and selling prices of these lights should be proportionately lower then that.
Of course I am a consumer and that is not my decision.
I am also not concerned because if they are priced too high.
The market will force them to self correct  .

I also agree that Chinese companies like LumaPower and Huntlight are offering the best price/performance/design combinations right now.
But I posted earlier, and several people misunderstood what I was trying to say, Chinese companies like LumaPower and Huntlight can take chances with new LED's before there reliability has been thoroughly tested. Companies like Surefire, Night-Ops, Pelican, Streamilight, that have customer bases in military and law enforcement really need to be sure the new LED's will be reliable as well as brighter BEFORE implementing them.

I know Surefire has Cree lights coming out because PK showed them at the Los Angeles Get together (light, or modules, or both). Ken J. Good at least inferred that there is a new Gladius revision coming at some point. These companies need to be completely sure the new LED's in these products are reliable before they start sending them out to duty personel so they will always be behind the "lastest and greatest" of the new companies that do not have the same concerns.

Take Care,
mtbkndad :wave:


----------



## SkinlessMonkey (Mar 23, 2007)

I think they should come out with a blue sentinel. When I saw PK's Titan at the LA get-together the output and functionality compared to my white Photon Freedom. It was a bit larger though.


----------



## easilyled (Mar 23, 2007)

Hi mtbkndad, 

Regarding your post #89, I think that you must have misinterpreted
my remark about the Ford Escort.  

The Escort in my example was a perfect Escort for its time, very durable
and reliable but only capable of going half the speed of a current day Focus.

ie. like a perfectly good lux3 only has half the brightness of a SeoulP4.

(maybe you would have preferred me to choose a slower car than an
Escort to illustrate the analogy more realistically, but I was trying
to err on the side of generosity towards the lights) 


As for my statement about Nuwai Q3 not needing a lifetime warrantee
because they had faith in their light, well that was clearly partly tongue
in cheek. Sorry if my attempt at a bit of humour bypassed you there.
However I thought that this only advantage about these lights had pretty
much been beaten to death and the importance of the warrantee far
overplayed compared to the shortcomings.

When you say that Night-Ops use the older luxeons because it
may be safer in a military environment to stay with something that has
withstood the test of time, you are implying that their motives
are very noble indeed.

What a pity then that the manufacturer didn't think of this first before
giving *their* reason ...




Ken J. Good said:


> We are not a custom shop making a few hundred lights. We have stock and materials that will be moved to make room for the cooler stuff.



See post #47 in case you think I'm quoting this out of context.

Perhaps you should help them with their PR in the future. :wave:


----------



## mtbkndad (Mar 23, 2007)

easilyled,

Thank you for the clarifications.
Your quote from Ken does not negate what I mentioned. Since he was speaking about lights based on the Ombu designs, there must be more lights coming from Ombu that will be Night-Ops lights that are newer designs and have been tested to Night-Ops QC standards in addition to the other Warrior Class lights that seem to be in the works.

This could be good news depending on the pricing of the new lights. 
:thinking: It also begs the question of how long these six lights will have their current prices.

Time and the market will tell.

Take Care,
mtbkndad :wave:


----------



## StefanFS (Mar 23, 2007)

I am wondering about this manufacturer in Spain, I'd love to hear more about that company. Starting with a name. During the last few years I have been visiting EU-countries from Poland to Greece, sometimes for extended periods, and during these visits I have invariably found myself in a lot of gun/security/sports/camping/outdoors/hiking/mountaineering/mountainbiking shops. Nowhere, ever, have I seen any lights of any kind (led or otherwise) that are Made in Spain. Does this manufacturer export all of it's products? Or did they just pop up? Just wondering. Would be great with a "local" maker of led flashlights.
Stefan


----------



## Mark2 (Mar 23, 2007)

mtbkndad said:


> It also begs the question of how long these six lights will have their current prices.



Not long IMHO. Flashlight enthusiasts know that they can get much more for this kind of money (including Night-Ops' own Gladius) and "normal" people do not pay $169 for a small pocket flashlight.

I must admit that the prices are what really annoys me. I think it's fair to ask a high price if manufacturing costs are high where you produce them, and it's also fair to produce lights in far-away countries to get the cost down so that you can offer them at lower prices. However, it's not fair to make the lights at a very low cost far away and then sell them at home for premium prices. Some of the Chinese made lights (not the lights discussed here, since these have a 'certificate of origin' from Spain) are sold at 10 times the wholesale cost in Europe and the USA. I think we all agree that this is rip-off. Makes you glad to pay $139 for a Surefire A1 knowing that their margin is probably pretty small because their production is in the USA (and maybe not "optimized" to the last...)


----------



## StefanFS (Mar 23, 2007)

I found the alleged manufacturer in Spain. *Ombu comercial disribuidora S.A.* In plain english, Ombu Distribution/Wholesale company. Please check the company via the link. Ombu/Ledwave homepage:
http://www.led-and-xenon.com/index.html

Be sure as to check the company details..
Distributors of imported goods, probably good quality, but made elsewhere. 

There are lots of rebranded lights, Ombu/Camillus etc. still sold over the internet.
Here is some marketing text cited from Batteryjunction.com about the OMBU line: "LEDWAVE, formerly known as Camillus Flashlights are manufactured by Ombu of Spain and are quickly becoming the choice light source for law enforcement, military and discriminating professionals as well. Although the Ombu flashlights are well known in Europe, they are fairly new to the USA market."

Batteryjunctions prices of these lights are a bit more realistic compared to what is cited in this thread, with another name/logo printed on the lights (I have no relation to Batteryjunction, never even bought anything). Since the origin is the same on the Ledwave lights, so should the quality be. These lights have also been around for a while. Years? I don't know how long, but a fair guess is as long as the Nuwai QIII and others have been available.
I still contend the notion that OMBU is well known in Europe. That's only a marketing spiel made up for the US market.

This homepage is sometimes useful when in doubt..
http://www.jlund.dk/linkpage/flashlights.html
Stefan


----------



## Kiessling (Mar 23, 2007)

Stefan ... as I said ... Ombu is at last known to some people in Germany, the LedWave brand is sold here. Or was. They not exactly "popular", but kown.
Some of those didn't receive good critics in the past years, but I stopped following that quite some time ago, so maybe quality has improved after all.
bernie


----------



## KROMATICS (Mar 23, 2007)

kc2ouf said:


> Couldn't Night-Ops rebadge more lights from the company that made the Gladius?



Who is the mystery manufacturer of the Gladius these days?


----------



## StefanFS (Mar 23, 2007)

Kiessling,
I've been through this thread a number of times. Missed your post completely. Illuminating, explains why I haven't seen these lights around.
Stefan


----------



## mtbkndad (Mar 24, 2007)

kc2ouf,

Night-Ops did not re-badge the Gladius. They designed it and then sought a manufacturer to produce it. Originally the manufacturer made it exclusively for Night-Ops. Now they have been licensed to sell it themselves in addition to making them for Night-Ops. Technically they are re-badging the Night-Ops designed Gladius.

KROMATICS, 

I tried to find the thread that had the link but could not find it.
It was called something like "Is This a Gladius?".
It is not a secret, I just can't find it but it the thread is on CPF somewhere.
I have noticed numerous resellers selling Gladiuses for $165.

Take Care,
mtbkndad :wave:


----------



## luxlover (Mar 25, 2007)

_*BUMP!



*_


----------



## batman (Mar 26, 2007)

i can't stand to even look at these goofy clowns trying to make cheap electronics. Nuwai sounds a lot like No-way to me.


----------



## easilyled (Mar 26, 2007)

mtbkndad said:


> Your quote from Ken does not negate what I mentioned.



I beg to differ. 

If safety within a military environment had been the main reason for using old
luxeons, Ken would have said so rather than saying that its to clear stock
because let's face it, it would have sounded better.

Do you know more about the manufacturer's reasoning than they
do themselves? :thinking:


----------



## KROMATICS (Mar 26, 2007)

Ken J. Good said:


> It was interesting when we released the Gladius. The cry from the angry mob was; “This is too complicated, it is too expensive…. The strobe is a marketing gimmick!....All we want is a simple ON/OFF light!”
> 
> Now the cry is” We don’t want a simple light, we want a Gladius II with a Cree emitter!!!”.



I don't see how upgrading the Gladius to a Cree or Seoul would make it more complicated. I think what people want from a Gladius II is a brighter LED and maybe a less finicky tailcap.


----------



## mtbkndad (Mar 26, 2007)

easilyled said:


> I beg to differ.
> 
> If safety within a military environment had been the main reason for using old
> luxeons, Ken would have said so rather than saying that its to clear stock
> ...



I am speaking in principle, companies like Surefire, Pelican, Streamlight, Night-Ops, etc. need to take time to be sure new LED products are reliable before adopting them. These companies will always be slower to adopt new technologies then companies who do not have the same target market base. 

These new Night-Ops lights have been on the Blackhawk's web site for quite some time(Very early fall 2006) and just not available yet. They were clearly in final development or early production by then. There obviously seemed to be unfortunate timing between these lights being produced for Night-Ops and new Crees and SSC P4's becoming readily available.

Now, readily available and proven reliable are not immediately the same thing. I do not doubt that there will be Cree or SSC based Night-Ops lights in all of their product classes in time as these LED's prove to be reliable. As these and other new LED's prove reliable Night-Ops will have to adopt them in all of their lines just to remain competitive.

That does not change the fact that, as Ken mentioned, a substantial inventory seems to have been created with the lights that are available now. I do not have any special knowledge of these lights or Night-Ops operation in specific.

I do find it interesting that you are very vocal about not liking these lights and just cannot leave it at that.
You do not like these new lights fine.
You are not going to get them fine.
I already mentioned I won't be getting any of them either because I am waiting for new Warrior Class lights. I certainly won't refuse receiving one of any of my friends gives me one  .
What I refuse to do is take their marketing decisions personally.
Life is too important and these lights not meeting my needs is to small a matter for me to fret over.

You making comnents that I consider disparaging is something I will take to task.



easilyled said:


> Do you know more about the manufacturer's reasoning than they
> do themselves? :thinking:



I feel your assesment of the decisions behind Blackhawk and Night-Ops bringing out this line is very simplistic. 
I am not trying to attack you, but rather have tried to explain how the general principle of needing to wait for new LED technologies to be proven reliable can easily create a circumstance to where a company has a large inventory that now itself will hinder the speedy introduction of more new products. 

While I am not involved with Blackhawk or Night-Ops in specific, I do have a good amount of experience dealing with manufacturers of different products and helping different products along in varying stages of development.

Take Care,
mtbkndad :wave:


----------



## easilyled (Mar 26, 2007)

To be fair, I think you labelled a humorous remark of mine in a previous
post "ridiculous", which I also found disparaging.

These are simple lights and the manufacturer has not made any claims
which suggest otherwise.

Perhaps you find my assessment "simplistic" because there is 
no unsubstantiated conjecture in it. 

I would also like to point out that I don't "dislike" the lights. I just
think that they should offer a lot more for the price.

My primary purpose was to try to point this out to newbies or those
without much knowledge about what was available.


----------



## mtbkndad (Mar 26, 2007)

easilyled said:


> To be fair, I think you labelled a humorous remark of mine in a previous
> post "ridiculous", which I also found disparaging.
> 
> These are simple lights and the manufacturer has not made any claims
> ...





easyiled,

My goal is not to have an arguement with you but to merely point out that for any product, even a re-badged product, to come to market is often a very complicated and time consuming process.

I did not interpret your original "warranty" statement as a joke and responded accordingly.

What I find simplistic is the "either or mentality" regarding my statement and Ken's statement. As a regular StrategosIntl.com customer and a user of numerous Night-Ops and Blackhawk products, I do have some understanding of the mentality of these companies and the importance of products that do not fail is to anything under the Blackhawk umbrella.

http://www.blackhawk.com/prod_details.asp?pid=About_us


What I mentioned in my post above is based on personal experience working with different companies in different industries. Even the two HID's I recently introduced took almost a year and a half to get to where they are now from the original artist renderings. 

Take Care,
mtbkndad :wave:


----------



## easilyled (Mar 27, 2007)

mtbkndad,

I am more than well aware that numerous decisions must be taken for each product at every stage. 
(I work for a huge market research company  )

*Every * wholesaler, manufacturer and retailer has been caught
by surprise at the speed at which the new generation of leds have
emerged and they are all faced with the same problem.

The consumer will gravitate towards those that adapt the quickest.

When evaluating a product, it should be compared to rival products
on the market at that price range rather than dwelling on business decisions
and the reasons for lack of progress or innovation, whatever they are.

I certainly didn't intend to be drawn into an argument about the reasons
for the inertia but did find it interesting the manufacturer quoted 
a different reason from the one you hypothesized about.

I'm not ruling out that they may be related but the fact that they
have also implied that "cooler stuff" will be used in their other lights tells
me that the prime reason is for moving stock in these particular lights. 

In any case this conjecture is not very relevant to the thrust of my
original debate.

As woodrow so correctly stated, the bottom line is if the product
measures up.

You can see how responsive Lumapower have been not just in upgrading
but by staying in constant communication and adjusting their products
accordingly.

I think its a no-brainer that the Lumapower-M1 or D-mini
are great products at great prices. Personally from all the specs,
they seem far superior to the lights in this review.

This is all the customer is concerned with.


----------



## mtbkndad (Mar 27, 2007)

easyiled,

Everything you are saying ignores the motivation as to how and why the original stock was chosen in the first place. You complain about the product in terms of performance and refuse to acknowledge that there was any reasoning behind it's choice. You refuse to recognize that choices were made and products were ordered and publicized months before Crees were readily available. When I give you a link to an explanation of how Blackhawk came about and the importance of everything they have being completely reliable first and formost most, you try to ignore it.
You simply cannot reasonably keep saying I hypothosized about the reason I gave when I have given a link to the words of the founder of Blackhawk himself. 
Did you even take the time to read it?
Did you consider his experience of having a pack fail in a mine field and deciding to make gear that WOULD NOT FAIL when needed most senseless babel?
As a regular Strategos customer and Blackhawk product user I have had many opportunities to speak with people from both companies and do have an understanding of what is important to these companies that goes beyond conjecture.

You try to dismiss what I say as conjecture even when I give documentation for the reasoning I have given.

Do you know what conjecture means?

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/conjecture

Your last sentence in the statement that I have quoted in green-

I think its a no-brainer that the Lumapower-M1 or D-mini
are great products at great prices. Personally from all the specs,
they seem far superior to the lights in this review.
This is all the customer is concerned with.


was an over generalization where you were applying your own purchasing criteria to all customers. 

That is conjecture.

Your statement was certainly not objective or fair. Let's look at the general specs of the Mini-D with the lights above and see if it clearly wins in ALL areas.

1. The Mini-D is only type 2 anodized. 
(Until the new Type 3 model comes out as a more expensive option.) 
So it is not better in terms of type of anodizing.

2. The Mini-D and LP-Mini are very difficult to twist on when using the tactical momentary switch and the other switch that comes with them is a reverse clickie. 
The new Night-Ops lights use a normal clickie with momentary on capability.
So Mini-D's certainly are not better in terms of switch design. 

3. The Mini-D has a short body and Large head to make room for it's 26mm diameter by 28mm deep reflector. As a result the people I have shown my 2 Mini-D's and 1 LP-Mini to, that have large hands, say it feels awkward. Several of these same individuals feel the Q3 type design feels very good in the hand.
So the Mini-D cannot be proclaimed better based on ergonomics.
This is clearly a preference issue.

4. The Mini-D is clearly a little throw monster.

But I know people that do not like it's tight hotspot.
I also have friends that feel the light output of a Mini-D is overkill for their needs and prefer a beam that is more flood and less bright.
Do they not count as consumers because you disagree with them?

Still, objectively speaking, the one area a Mini-D would clearly win would be total light output.

5. The Mini-D and M1 are white LED's so they certainly will not fill the needs of somebody that needs a red or green LED light better then those new Night-Ops lights.

6. The Mini-D and M1 are modular and affordably upgradeable.
There I believe they beat most other competitors.

7. The Mini-D and M1 have not been without problems, but Ricky has been good about taking care of customers. But how long will that last since there is no official warranty information to be easily found.

The Night-Ops lights have a lifetime warranty so I will give the edge to the New Night-Ops lights in this area.

Numbers 1,3, 5, seem to be a wash to me.
I would have to give numbers 4 and 6 to the Mini-D
I would have to give numbers 2 and 7 to the new Night-Ops lights.

The purchasing decision would then be made on which numbers in the list above are most important a specific customer.

For some people the new Night-Ops lights will be the clear winners and justify the extra cost.
For others the Lumapower Mini-D will be what they want.
For some people budget alone will determine their purchases and neither company's lights will be considered.
But, stating one is clearly superior to the other in All of the specs. is not true. That the Mini-D is better in all of the areas that are important to you is very obvious to everybody that has been following this thread.
I don't have any problem with that. I just do not see the value in attacking products that do not seem to meet your expectations.
As I mentioned in an earlier post, I will not make specific comments about these lights because I have not used any of them.
Have you actually used any of these lights, or are all of your arguments against them based on conjecture  ?

Take Care,
mtbkndad :wave:


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## StefanFS (Mar 27, 2007)

Is this for real? I'm amazed! I'm not going to waste more time on this thread, it was entertaining for a while. Now it's just sad.


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## easilyled (Mar 27, 2007)

I don't think there's much point in me adding to what I've already said
so I will be bidding this thread farewell now.


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## luigi (Mar 27, 2007)

Question for the reviewers:
Can you compare the Sentinel with the QIII we all know? What are the differences, etc ?
That will surely help me understand the differences between the Nuwai original models and these new lights.

Luigi


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## Art Vandelay (Mar 27, 2007)

What's going on here? I thought Night-Ops was trying to be in the same league as Surefire and HDS? This just brings shame on the Gladius. Since they have the same brand and cost about the same, won't these just bring the proud Gladius name down with them?


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## kc2ouf (Mar 28, 2007)

mtbkndad said:


> Night-Ops did not re-badge the Gladius. They designed it and then sought a manufacturer to produce it. Originally the manufacturer made it exclusively for Night-Ops. Now they have been licensed to sell it themselves in addition to making them for Night-Ops. Technically they are re-badging the Night-Ops designed Gladius.


 
Clarification appreciated. Also, I am very happy with my Gladius. Regardless of advances in emitters, I find the current Gladius does what I need it to do reliably and competently.


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## Lobo (Mar 28, 2007)

Art Vandelay said:


> What's going on here? I thought Night-Ops was trying to be in the same league as Surefire and HDS? This just brings shame on the Gladius. Since they have the same brand and cost about the same, won't these just bring the proud Gladius name down with them?


 
Exactly my sentiment also, but there are other opinions.


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## KROMATICS (Mar 28, 2007)

luigi said:


> Question for the reviewers:
> Can you compare the Sentinel with the QIII we all know? What are the differences, etc ?
> That will surely help me understand the differences between the Nuwai original models and these new lights.
> 
> Luigi



Good idea. So Blackhawk is buying them from Ombu but I'm still unclear as to whether the Nuwai is a copy of the Ombu or the Ombu is a copy of the Nuwai. Is the Blackhawk/Ombu just a Nuwai with a different lens and tailcap? Is it simply a Nuwai that has been modified by them and therefore labeled as made in Spain? The first thing that struck me in the original post was the gawdy "1 Watt LED" designation on the clip as I've seen the exact same thing on a variety of cheap lights. It doesn't exactly inspire confidence.


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## mtbkndad (Mar 28, 2007)

kc2ouf said:


> Clarification appreciated. Also, I am very happy with my Gladius. Regardless of advances in emitters, I find the current Gladius does what I need it to do reliably and competently.




From what I understand, and Ken posted, the Gladius was designed by Night-Ops 
and then Night-Ops sought a manufacturer to make it.

Insight Technologies has been manufacturing the Night-Ops designed light and recently was licensed by Night-Ops to sell it under their own label. So while Insight is the manufacturer, Night-Ops is the designer and holds rights to it and therefore Insight is marketing a re-badged Gladius.
If you want to take your chances with a company that regularly ends up in the jeer section, Botac tactical has the cheapest price I have found.

http://www.insightlights.com/

http://www.insightlights.com/products/showProduct.asp?id=33

http://www.botac.com/insight.html

I agree with luigi about the value of a comparative review and will go even farther. I think it would be good for somebody to review all of the Night-Ops & Nuwai look alikes side by side. I would be willing to do this but after writing a very critical email around 5 months ago, detailing my concerns about the new lights(price, country of origin, quality, Nuwai association, etc.), when these first appeared on the Blackhawk web sight, I do not know that Night-Ops would trust me to be objective.

While I do not think any less of my Gladiuses or Falcatas because of these new products, I certainly will not instantly proclaim the new lights really good because of my Gladiuses or Falcatas either.
I do know Ken and Vaughn of Night-Ops to be men of very high integrity so if they say these lights are better quality, I will give both the lights and Night-Ops the benefit of the doubt until I can form my own opinion through personal experience with these products.
I would buy one just to test, but recently purchased a Polarion X1 and just put myself on the list for a new Wee Raw, so my descretionary funds are a little below low right now.
I will just have to wait until I can get my hands on one of them.


I have heard limited versions of both sides of the Nuwai / Ombu saga and it makes my head spin. I actually sought people out to ask and the info is not worth repeating for following the reason. My personal take on it is that no matter who is right or who "owns" the body design. Nuwai has driven their versions of these lights over the low cost cheap hit and mis QC cliff. I stopped buying Nuwai's because of Q3's and the 5 watt version of these lights. Ombu and Night-Ops could put Gladius features into these models with, a 50 miliwatt green laser too, and people will still associate them with cheap Nuwai lights when they first see them.


Take Care,
mtbkndad :wave:


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## KROMATICS (Mar 28, 2007)

Is a higher-quality version of a low-quality light considered high quality?

I don't think this is going to do Blackhawk any good. If they were designing their own "good" and "better" lights I could understand it but rebadging and modifying a light that sells for $30 and charging $150 for it is not going to go over very well. It reminds me of when car manufacturers sell mountain bikes. They're usually of very low quality but people think they're high-end because of the name slapped on them.


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## mtbkndad (Mar 28, 2007)

KROMATICS said:


> Is a higher-quality version of a low-quality light considered high quality?
> 
> I don't think this is going to do Blackhawk any good. If they were designing their own "good" and "better" lights I could understand it but rebadging and modifying a light that sells for $30 and charging $150 for it is not going to go over very well. It reminds me of when car manufacturers sell mountain bikes. They're usually of very low quality but people think they're high-end because of the name slapped on them.




I think we are making the same point, but lets be fair the Q3 which sells for $30 would be Nuwai's equivalent to the Sentinel 1 which sells for $84.99 not $150.
The TM-301X-3 which sells for $42.50 is the 2 cell 2 level Nuwai that would be Nuwai's equivalent to the Ally PL-3x which sells for $144.95.

I have a different question for everybody.
Since nobody reading these reviews, including myself, has been very complimentary of these lights.

Is there anything that can ever be done to these light models (body styles) that Nuwai has, in my opinion from my own personal experience, so successfully associated with mediocrity that would cause people on this forum to think differently of them?

At what price would a lifetime warranty make these lights worth purchasing?

I must admit that with my Gladiuses I was concerned with the lifetime warranty, but since I can mod my own lights when I want to I do not have much concern for such things with my "lesser" lights.
That is why I own most of the LumaPower line in spite of numerous flaws in each model  .

Even if these lights came with Cree's or SSC P4's would that be enough in itself to justify higher prices?
How much and at what point would you consider purchasing one of these lights?

I do not work for Night-Ops and was not asked to post these questions.
For that matter I do not know if they will particularly appreciate me posting these questions.

My questions actually come from something that easilyled said in post #107.



easilyled said:


> I would also like to point out that I don't "dislike" the lights. I just think that they should offer a lot more for the price.



For me personally the, the Nuwai equivalents of these lights did not feel real great in my hands independant of the other glaring QC issues that I have mentioned before. I would not grade a light down when reviewing it just because I do not like its ergonomics, but it would keep me from purchasing these for personal use.

However, clearly lots of people do like these basic body designs so once again.
Knowing they are made in Spain and have a lifetime warranty, what price points to you personally think these lights would be worth?
If they are upgraded at some point, what price points do you think they would be worth?

I personally would like to see completely different designs leaving the whole Nuwai/Ombu look and feel behind.
Are there others that agree with me or do you disagree?

Take Care,
mtbkndad :wave:


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## Art Vandelay (Mar 28, 2007)

The problem with a lifetime warranty as justification for a high price is that the the warranty is only good until I'm gone or the company is gone. When I see lights like these, I have serious doubts about how long the company is going to last.



mtbkndad said:


> I think we are making the same point, but lets be fair the Q3 which sells for $30 would be Nuwai's equivalent to the Sentinel 1 which sells for $84.99 not $150.
> The TM-301X-3 which sells for $42.50 is the 2 cell 2 level Nuwai that would be Nuwai's equivalent to the Ally PL-3x which sells for $144.95.
> 
> I have a different question for everybody.
> ...


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## Patriot (Mar 28, 2007)

It still doesn't seem real but it is. I've lost all respect for the company. Unfortunately they're pretty committed to their decission at this point. It would be a huge loss for them to scrap their campaign but I don't know what else they can do. I hope they have a lot of money because this is going to hurt.


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## mtbkndad (Mar 28, 2007)

Art Vandelay said:


> The problem with a lifetime warranty as justification for a high price is that the the warranty is only good until I'm gone or the company is gone. When I see lights like these, I have serious doubts about how long the company is going to last.




You have a great point and my NightCutter M60L is a perfect example.
I did have the original replaced under warranty once and luckily just before the company ceased doing business. The replacement has worked great since, but if it dies it will need to be modded because the light has a warranty with a company that no longer exists  .

What about my other questions?
Do you have any thoughts on those?



Take Care,
mtbkndad :wave:


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## Lobo (Mar 28, 2007)

mtbkndad said:


> That is why I own most of the LumaPower line in spite of numerous flaws in each model  .


 
This is no attack and I do respect your opinions, which makes me curious about what numerous fault you think each model of Lumapower has? Especially since almost everybody raves about Lumapower(M3 might be the exceptions since it's not bright enough, but that shouldnt be a problem for you, considering the brightness of Night-Ops latest) and the opposite, most people are dissapointed with Night-Ops latest, except for you that vigorously defends them.

Regards.


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## Art Vandelay (Mar 28, 2007)

I would be upset if I bought one of those new lights at those high prices. I would be expecting something like the Gladius. I would wish I had bought a better performing light that costs less instead. 

People can buy these for $85 or so
http://www.flashlightreviews.com/reviews/huntlight_ft01xse.htm
http://www.flashlightreviews.com/reviews/lumapower_m1.htm

Or they could buy this for less than $25 
[size=-1]http://www.kaidomain.com/WEBUI/ProductDetail.aspx?TranID=1334[/size]

The UltraFire C2 is reviewed at lightreviews.info but that site is down as of 10:50 pm tonight.
[size=-1][/size]


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## mtbkndad (Mar 28, 2007)

Lobo said:


> This is no attack and I do respect your opinions, which makes me curious about what numerous fault you think each model of Lumapower has? Especially since almost everybody raves about Lumapower(M3 might be the exceptions since it's not bright enough, but that shouldnt be a problem for you, considering the brightness of Night-Ops latest) and the opposite, most people are dissapointed with Night-Ops latest, except for you that vigorously defends them.
> 
> Regards.



Lobo,

I suggest you re-read All of my posts before you inadvertently make false statements or incorrect interpretations of what I have said. I have not been vigorously defending the new Night-Ops lights.
I have merely been vigorously stating that everybody, including me, that has not actually used these lights needs to wait to pass judgement on them.
I simply refuse to pass judgement on products until I have had an opportunity to test them myself. 

Or until another known reviewer can do a point by point comparison of the lights in an objective manner. Photos (including component by component comparisons), lux readings, light box measurements,beam shots, etc..

I just do not feel any constructive end comes from jumping to conclusions. 
That is why I posted the questions above. Night-Ops may never pay attention to the answers but these lights certainly do not seem to be setting any "I will take it" records so I figure maybe we could help make what seems to be a real negative into a positive. 

Regarding the LumaPower lights, I will soon be posting in the review section my critiques of my LumaPower lights complete with photo documentation. If you read my post number 91 in this thread then you read-



mtbkndad said:


> I also agree that Chinese companies like LumaPower and Huntlight are offering the best price/performance/design combinations right now.
> But I posted earlier, and several people misunderstood what I was trying to say, Chinese companies like LumaPower and Huntlight can take chances with new LED's before there reliability has been thoroughly tested. Companies like Surefire, Night-Ops, Pelican, Streamilight, that have customer bases in military and law enforcement really need to be sure the new LED's will be reliable as well as brighter BEFORE implementing them.



While I stand by what I said in post 91 that is not without being aware of numerous shortcomings in each of my LumaPower lights except my 5 watt DX1. For the record I have 9 LumaPower lights and two more on the way so I have plenty of experience with these lights to make accurate assesments of them. As a Lumapower owner I feel their price makes them worth their shortcomings.

When I post you will see that I am being fair in my assesment of the LumaPower lights. The F1's I got just because I thought they look great.
Hey , I like flashlights  .

Take Care,
mtbkndad :wave:


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## Schnotts (Mar 29, 2007)

What were they thinking....


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## Lobo (Mar 29, 2007)

mtbkndad said:


> Lobo,
> 
> I have merely been vigorously stating that everybody, including me, that has not actually used these lights needs to wait to pass judgement on them.
> I simply refuse to pass judgement on products until I have had an opportunity to test them myself.
> ...


 
Fair enough.

And I'm looking forward to read your review.





Cheers.


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## Art Vandelay (Mar 29, 2007)

I would like to see a point by point comparison between these lights and the original Nuwai lights. I'd also like to see point by point comparison with other "tactical" lights in the same price range. Maybe Gladius could do a pass around of the lights. 



mtbkndad said:


> Or until another known reviewer can do a point by point comparison of the lights in an objective manner. Photos (including component by component comparisons), lux readings, light box measurements,beam shots, etc..


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## Heck (Apr 1, 2007)

After having quite a few problems regarding SF's over time I've been looking at Night Ops as an alternative. Now after reading all this, I'm not exactly fond of the direction the company is heading or standing, I'm going to pass, and look for another alternative.


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## Marcus Aurelius (Apr 1, 2007)

Now that I have upgraded my old Q-III to an SSC P4, there is no way I could see spending this kind of money on one of these lights. The output on my mod is spectacular and it only cost $11 for the star. Because I like the shape and feel of his host, I might be willing to step up to something in a high quality HAIII, but since these lights don't have that, my vote, with my money, is to stay away. I'm sure that more consumers will do the same and then perhaps the price will change to bring equilibrium back to supply and demand. Let me know when they are in the $40 range.


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## mtbkndad (Apr 1, 2007)

Marcus Aurelius said:


> Now that I have upgraded my old Q-III to an SSC P4, there is no way I could see spending this kind of money on one of these lights. The output on my mod is spectacular and it only cost $11 for the star. Because I like the shape and feel of his host, I might be willing to step up to something in a high quality HAIII, but since these lights don't have that, my vote, with my money, is to stay away. I'm sure that more consumers will do the same and then perhaps the price will change to bring equilibrium back to supply and demand. Let me know when they are in the $40 range.




I am planning on doing the same with my broken Q3's :thumbsup: . How do you like it's performance with a SSC P4?

Heck,

I am very pleased with my Gladiuses and Falcatas.
I just plan on seeing what is coming out next in the Night-Ops Warrior Class line. As long as the Warrior Class line stays top notch I will continue to purchase Night-Ops products.

Food for thought in Case Night-Ops or Blackhawk personel read this

I really think Night-Ops made the mistake of Black & Decker.
Years ago Black & Decker Industrial power tools were known to be top notch. Then Black & Decker decided to really aggressively attack the home market. These products were sometimes decent and often cheap. The net effect is that people associated the Black and Decker Name with "cheaper then profesional" quality consumer grade products. As a result the Black & Decker Industrial tools line really tanked in sales.

Black & Decker's solution was to resurect a name that was once synonomous with the best Radial arms saws in the industry and the Dewalt line of power tools was born. These came with great warranties and very solid construction if not always innovative designs and the rest is history.
Today Dewalt is one of the biggest names in power tools.

Totally independent of whether these new lights are good or bad, I personally think it was a mistake to attach the Night-Ops name to less then "Warrior Class" lights. Particularly lights with body designs that Nuwai has made synonomous with cheap, both in price and quality control. This is also not consistent with Blackhawk's strategy in at least one other area. There are two different brands under the Blackhawk umbrella for knives. There is the top tier MOD brand and then the Blackhawk Blades brand. Why didn't they have the top tier Night-Ops lights and then another name for the "lower classes" of illumination tools.

It will be hard enough to follow the Gladius with future equally innovative "Warrior Class" illumination tools. Why dilute the Night-Ops brand name with "professional and legacy" lines of lights of any type. Blackhawk did not seem willing to dilute the MOD brand name. Why were they willing to dilute the Night-Ops brand name? 
To make matters worse, when you look at the Blackhawk web site there is no distinction as to what is what regarding the different lines of lights.

http://www.blackhawk.com/category1.asp?D=D0062&S=S0533&G=&C=&N=1&pricestart=&priceend=

Take Care, 
mtbkndad :wave:


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## atm (Apr 2, 2007)

Excellently put mtbkndad, my feelings exactly.


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## gorn (Sep 5, 2007)

Heck said:


> After having quite a few problems regarding SF's over time I've been looking at Night Ops as an alternative. Now after reading all this, I'm not exactly fond of the direction the company is heading or standing, I'm going to pass, and look for another alternative.



I purchased a gladius a about a year ago. It came with a nice snap in holster for $125 from LA Police gear on sale. I love the light. About 8 months ago I bought the Insight typhoon version of the gladius for my son in Iraq. I paid $120 for it from Botach. (yeah i rolled the dice on them, but ordering by phone it turned out real good). 

If I hadn't done some research on the gladius prior to the purchase and seen the new rebranded nuwai's that are being sold at an outrageous price I would probably feel the same way you do. But if you are looking for a great light the gladius is one to consider.


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## j3bnl (Sep 7, 2007)

The Gladius was/is a great light and piece of technology. These lights to me would seem to be a backward step for the company. Cant see these selling in huge numbers but you never know!!


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## kc2ouf (Oct 11, 2007)

Has anyone purchased any of these lights?


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## toolguru3 (May 24, 2013)

How do these compare to the LED Lenser? I have been searching for a couple of new lights for me and a couple of lads who work for me and have been informed that led lenser torches are the way forward. Does anyone have any experience with this?


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## Lighthouse one (Jun 10, 2013)

I would spend more time looking at some more manufactures. There are a number of high quality manufactures who advertise here...take your time and read lots of reviews. Led lensers have mixed reviews. Can be good, but look around more first.

Good luck!


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