# Remember "Top Gun"? The F-14 is Retired..



## ACMarina (Mar 10, 2006)

Linkity Link 

I can't even believe it. My dad was in Vietnam, when *the* plane was the F-4 Phantom. Top Gun was the first R-rated movie I saw, and the first DVD I purchased. Lot of good planes out there, now, though..


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## magic79 (Mar 10, 2006)

The F-14 is big, heavy, and expensive, but quite a machine.

Some of you may remember when Mohamar Qadaffi sent two of his Sukhoi jets (Su-20s) out into the Mediterranean to tangle with the U.S. fleet, maybe 20 years ago. I was working on the F-16 at the time, and we got 'news' that never made the News. The two F-14s flying MiG CAP had the Su-20s on their radar and designated as they were taxiing! As soon as they took off and made agressive moves toward the fleet, they were warned, then splashed. All this was done from over 125 miles away!

Great airplane!


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## greenLED (Mar 10, 2006)

...take my breath away...


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## ABTOMAT (Mar 10, 2006)

So what're they replacing them with now? The F/A-18 gets a lot of use but it doesn't strike me as an air superiority fighter. And it's old, too. Is the Super Hornet up to the task?


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## ACMarina (Mar 10, 2006)

Super Hornet seems to be the big replacement right now, from what I know of the current carrier fleet. I thought at some point I read that the F22 Raptor was at least prototyped to use landing hooks for carrier service, but I don't know about that for sure..


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## Kiessling (Mar 10, 2006)

Another legend that leaves us. My age starts to show ... :green:


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## watt4 (Mar 10, 2006)

http://www.navy.mil/view_single.asp?id=32651
.


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## cratz2 (Mar 10, 2006)

The F22 seems to be getting a lot of attention... but if I was a multi zillionaire, I'd want an F18 in my garage... er...hanger.

I don't know about that incident magic, but I remember when we bombed Lybia. I was at work with my mom and the owner of her company had just returned from Algiers and since I was a coin collector, he gave me some Algerian coins that very morning. I remember that distinctly.


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## Numbers (Mar 10, 2006)

Aaahhh The F14, imortalized in Top Gun (too bad TC has turned into a nut), and built right here on Long Island.
All good things must end.


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## Coop (Mar 10, 2006)

I wonder how long it will take for the first ones to show up on ebay... 


Naaaahhhh.... that would be one purchase I could never justify to my girlfriend...


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## eluminator (Mar 10, 2006)

The F-14 tomcat was a great plane. I used to work with the son of the Grumman engineer that designed the swing wing.

I saw a tomcat and another Grumman plane, the WW2 tigercat, at an airshow pull a stunt that had everyone in the audience [email protected] their pants and then standing with their mouths open staring in amazement at what they were witnessing.

The WW2 propeller driven tigercat had two monstrous 2100 HP engines and the tomcat with wings extended could and did fly with it, just a few feet apart. Those were two expert pilots we were watching.

It's sad that Grumman is no more, and no more "cats".


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## CM (Mar 10, 2006)

F-14 was (still is) an incredible carrier based air superiority fighter. I was an engineering co-op student in the mid 80's and worked on the F/A-18 and all the engineers I worked with at McDonnell Douglas had great respect for the abilities of that aircraft. An era is ending.


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## ACMarina (Mar 10, 2006)

I remember seeing the F-14 at the Dayton airshow some years back (they were still allowed to break the sound barrier, if that tells you anything). They had one come by at just a hair over stall speed, wings extended, in as tight a turn as possible, while another came by overtop that one in a high-speed pass, wings swept. It was sooooooo sweet..


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## nerdgineer (Mar 10, 2006)

F-14 was wonderful bleeding edge design in it's day, not just the swing wing but the radar and the Pheonix missile only it flew with. I loved the movie Final Countdown for the F-14's (and Katherine Ross). The part where the F-14 folds its wings before making its attack is just beautiful, like a true raptor..

I think nowadays, there is perceived to be little need for an air superiority fighter and lots of need for precision ground attack aircraft, hence the Super Hornet.


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## CLHC (Mar 11, 2006)

Fascinating planes with a lot of history, especially seeing them at the Salinas and Moffett Field airshow.


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## magic79 (Mar 11, 2006)

cratz2 said:


> The F22 seems to be getting a lot of attention... but if I was a multi zillionaire, I'd want an F18 in my garage... er...hanger.
> 
> I don't know about that incident magic, but I remember when we bombed Lybia. I was at work with my mom and the owner of her company had just returned from Algiers and since I was a coin collector, he gave me some Algerian coins that very morning. I remember that distinctly.


 
Another well executed mission.

That one used F-111s out of England. France would not allow them to fly over, so they had to fly out over the Atlantic, adding several hours to the flight.

F-111s were the first airplane to use automatic terrain following radar (TFR) and were magnificent airplanes. Also, the F-111 was the first swing-wing airplane, and many of the F-14 features were originated on this airplane. I got to sit in one when I worked at General Dynamics.


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## Santelmo (Mar 11, 2006)

As I recall, it was a long-range, multi-mission capable figthter. Definitely an asset when in comes to air-superiority and "full-spectrum" dominance. 

As I understand it, the newer F-22 seems with advance avionics is able to indentify, target and lock-on on faster. They say seconds are critical "up there".


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## Sigman (Mar 11, 2006)

As an Air Force vet, I "could" say "bout' time" - but it would be furthest from the truth! Sure "interservice rivalry" is fun...but the Tomcat was (and still is) a very respected piece of hardware!!

I started out in 1975 (oh here goes the story about being born in the woods in a little log cabin in thigh deep snow...not!)...working on F4E Phantom IIs. After 21 years of working on various aircraft, culminating with the F15E Strike Eagle...it's sad anytime when one sees an aircraft retired and mothballed. (Oh don't you forget - they can be brought back into service if need be - if they aren't used as target drones like many retired aircraft are!) 

It really is like seeing a bit of your life slip away!


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## ACMarina (Mar 11, 2006)

Sigman, is it true that the old F4 still has the Time to Climb record?? I mean, barring anything that *we* don't know about, of course..


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## Donovan (Mar 11, 2006)

Yep, the F-14's were my favorites when I serving onboard the USS Forrestal. Just a great looking plane from all angles! It just "looks" like a fighter plane! From the back those huge engines were a sight to see!

They were still used for air-to-air back in late 80's (we had F-18 Hornets, but they were not the "super" hornets) But they I believe in the later years they were used mainly for air-to-ground because they could carry so much (it really is a HUGE plane).

The successor to both the F-18 and F-14 will be the F-35C Joint Strike fighter. http://www.naval-technology.com/projects/jsf/
I have been reading up on the F-35 recently. This will be a huge change for all services...


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## Donovan (Mar 11, 2006)

I wonder what the normal carrier loadout will be in a few years??? Heck, I wonder what the loadout is NOW? Siince there are no F-14's Im guessing there are 2 additional squadrons of F-18s? Is the EA-6B still used for EW? I'm pretty sure the E2-C early warning radar plane is still there. Can anyone serving now or very recently can comment on current plane loadout?


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## ACMarina (Mar 11, 2006)

STOVL, Ye-ah!!


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## mobile1 (Mar 11, 2006)

From a design point of view, the F14 is one of the best looking planes - right after the F117...


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## ABTOMAT (Mar 11, 2006)

I don't know, I always thought the F-14 was a rather ugly aircraft. The F-117 is interesting, too, but it ain't pretty. I like many of the frequently forgotten '50s-60s jets. F-102, A-4, F-4D Skyray, etc. And of course the SR-71 is the best looking plane ever.


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## magic79 (Mar 11, 2006)

I agree with you ABTOMAT; I find the F-14 and F-117 rather ugly.

I love the looks of the F-16, probably because it looks like my alltime favorite, the F-104. Not to hijack the thread, but I can resist a "pinup":


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## Kiessling (Mar 11, 2006)

Yepp ... nothing comes even close to the SR-71 ... this one is the ultimate design ever, and looks just as gorgeous and futuristic today as it looked decades ago. A timeless marvel without any competition. Ever.
I love the SR-71. 
bernie


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## PlayboyJoeShmoe (Mar 11, 2006)

Biggest problem with the FA18 has always been "short legs".

I don't know that the Super Hornet has all that much more range, but I see "legs" as being a problem in years to come....

Sad to see the 14 go. But then it was more sad to me to see the F4 go!!!


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## watt4 (Mar 11, 2006)

the F-4 showed up in an Air Force photo this week:


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## InfidelCastro (Mar 11, 2006)

The F-4 Phantom has always been a favorite of mine!!!

I do like the new Raptor though.


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## ABTOMAT (Mar 11, 2006)

How's this? F-102 prototype.


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## Warhead (Mar 11, 2006)

i









Best Air to Air fighter of its time. I've read F-15 Eagle pilots even had problems with the Tomcat at low speeds when it had its wings out.
Tomcat's saw service in the Gulf as "Bombcats" and could even carry the lase for smart bombs.


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## Santelmo (Mar 12, 2006)

Whoa! The "Blackbird"/SR-71 was mentioned (Abtomat and Kiessling)? Liked it ever since I saw it tacked on my uncle's wall when I was a kid 20+ years ago. Really sci-fi looking! Not really much of a fighter, but it's gone in a blink and can climb higher.

This site might be of some interest:

http://www.area51zone.com/aircraft/switchblade.shtml

EDIT - sheesh! I overcooked the spaghetti. . . and hey it's my 300th!


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## Kiessling (Mar 12, 2006)

OK ... time for some SR-71 soft porn, I cannot resist, this plane drives me nuts even nowadays:






















bernie


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## Warhead (Mar 12, 2006)

Bet whoever took this shot had some raw fuel raining down on them as the afterburners lit up.
He's REALLY cranking on it, and THEN the afterburners...I need a new job.


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## Kiessling (Mar 12, 2006)

This is a great shot !
Thanx!


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## jd37352 (Mar 12, 2006)

magic79 said:


> Some of you may remember when Mohamar Qadaffi sent two of his Sukhoi jets (Su-20s) out into the Mediterranean to tangle with the U.S. fleet, maybe 20 years ago. I was working on the F-16 at the time, and we got 'news' that never made the News. The two F-14s flying MiG CAP had the Su-20s on their radar and designated as they were taxiing! As soon as they took off and made agressive moves toward the fleet, they were warned, then splashed. All this was done from over 125 miles away!
> 
> Great airplane!


This was the Gulf of Sidra incident in 1981, where the Tomcats shot down the 2 SU-22's with AIM-9 Sidewinders.


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## Steve K (Mar 12, 2006)

ACMarina said:


> Sigman, is it true that the old F4 still has the Time to Climb record?? I mean, barring anything that *we* don't know about, of course..



howdy,
As a former employee of the former McDonnell Douglas, I can tell you that there was a stripped down F-15, dubbed the "Streak Eagle", that set a time to climb record. No idea if the record has been broken since then. I'd be surprised if the Su-27 didn't attempt it, or at least the MiG-25 (or one of the derivative aircraft).

I'm an engineer for Caterpillar now, and none of our products are making attempts at this record. 

Steve K.


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## Sigman (Mar 12, 2006)

Steve K said:


> ...there was a stripped down F-15, dubbed the "Streak Eagle", that set a time to climb record. No idea if the record has been broken since then.


That stuck in my mind as well, but I wanted to verify it...did some searching - then got carried away with another "project".


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## PlayboyJoeShmoe (Mar 12, 2006)

Somewhere in one of the MANY containers that haven't been disturbed in the slightly over a year since we moved is a nice F-15 book. I'm also fairly sure the Streak Eagle beat the old record by a lot. 

I'll try to get exact info.


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## Warhead (Mar 12, 2006)

From "Great Modern Warplanes"

Flights in January of 1975
ALT(ft) - TIME - Prvs.Time - Margin

9843 27.57 34.52 (F4B) 20%
19,685 39.22 48.79 (F4B) 19%
29,528 48.86 61.68 (F4B) 21%
39,370 59.38 77.14 (F4B) 23%
49,212 77.02 114.50(F4B) 33%
65,617 112.94 169.80 (MIG-25) 16%
82,021 161.02 192.60 (MIG-25) 16%
98,425 207.80 243.86 (MIG-25) 15%

Faster to 50,000 than an Apollo moonshot Saturn V


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## Flying Turtle (Mar 13, 2006)

Saw a great collection of planes at the Air and Space Museum annex (Udvar Hazy) out near Dulles airport a couple years ago. Thought this would be a good opportunity to squeeze in one more Blackbird shot. That's an actual Shuttle in the background.

Geoff


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## offroadcmpr (Mar 13, 2006)

I remember when I was 5 or 6, we would go to the el torro marine base to see the blue angels and the air show. They had a F117 there at the time. It was the only aircraft that was roped off with several soldiers holding rifles, making sure no one would get too close!


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## Santelmo (Mar 13, 2006)

Thanks for the sweeeeet pics Kiessling!!!


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## DieselDave (Mar 13, 2006)

Yea, Yea, yea, all those lawn darts look cool but....can anyone argue the best looking, (choke, choke) fastest, (choke, choke) chick magnet (choke, choke) of a plane ever built was the mighty A-6E Intruder? Try and tell me the "Flying Drumstick" wasn't a work of art and I, and I.........will reluctantly be forced to agree. 



A6E
Carried more ordinance than any other aircraft on the carrier. The only modern aircraft to date that carried more were the B52 and B1B. 

Don't know about now but it was the only aircraft with "Terrain Recognition and Mapping Radar" (TRAM) The easiest way to explain "TRAM" verses "Terrain Avoidance" or "Terrain Following Radar" is, Using TAR or TFR you would fly at a selected altitude above surrounding terrain. The aircraft would give you climb and descend cues to keep you at a selected altitude above the terrain. TRAM allowed you to fly below the surrounding terrain. You could fly up a narrow, winding, mountain valley at night with no moon in a blinding snow storm with the walls of the valley thousands of feet higher than your altitude and 1/4 of a mile to your left and right. TAR and TFR could do it if the valley was straight but they couldn't make corners, there radar would cue them to climb over the wall in front of them instead of giving them data allowing them to make the blind turn. The reality of that flight is it's the second most scary thing I can think of in normal aviation ops, right after the last 10-15 seconds of a low vis., pitching deck, night carrier landing.









Photos courtesy of Nettie Dye and Thomas Tye

OK, I'm over it. The F14 looks cool and IMO is a top 3 airshow flight demo.


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## pedalinbob (Mar 13, 2006)

Sad to see the Tomcat go...but, the F-22 and JSF will be excellent replacements (hopefully).

The F22 has supercruise, thrust vectoring, better radar/avionics, stealth, etc.
It will be unmatched in the air. Truly sick technology.

I used to watch the F4's and F16's fly at Selfridge ANG (north of Detroit) when I was a kid. Mom would be shopping, and I was totally into watching the jets.

Thanks for the pics! Great stuff...

Bob


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## Kiessling (Mar 13, 2006)

Yeah DD ... what a ... nice, ahem ... airplane. :green:

And guys ... keep the pics coming !!!!! :thumbsup:

I am particularly interested in:

- SR-71 ... duh!
- B1B
- Hercules transporter and ... the gunship version

Thanx! 

bernie


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## magic79 (Mar 13, 2006)

C-130 Hercules, eh? That airplane was quite a TRUCK!


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## KC2IXE (Mar 13, 2006)

DieselDave said:


> Yea, Yea, yea, all those lawn darts look cool but....can anyone argue the best looking, (choke, choke) fastest, (choke, choke) chick magnet (choke, choke) of a plane ever built was the mighty A-6E Intruder? ...snip...



One of my parents neighbors was a LONG time Eng at Grumman - worked on the F-14 and the A-6 (I remember him working on the TRAM mod) - his stories of watching the prototype F-14 going in out at Calverton were interesting

Back when I was in college, then Electronics Tech school, I was working for a crane company - we had a contract to install the new cranes in Hanger 1 in Bethpage - the built the cockpit section of the F-14 there, and the main fusilage of the E2C

Here we are - we have JUST gotten the new 22 speed crane with creep installed, when they go to mate the front and rear sections of an E2 - and they start "Jogging" the the controls - made my foreman flinch. He told the Grumman guys "Let US show you how it's done" - He got the controls - I was the guy signalling the move. We PERFECTLY mated the 2 halves (rivet holes lined up) in ONE move, and about 40 seconds. The Grumman guys looked at us with AWE - it was funny - it's just that moving things with cranes is what we did all day, and we KNEW each other, and how we would signal and react

After that, they were a TAD more willing to LISTEN to us when we were explaining HOW to use the new crane


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## Warhead (Mar 13, 2006)

Here are some B1 shots for you, Kiessling.
http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f13/warhead4u/lance.jpg
Too big to post









Look out below




Going supersonic


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## EVAN_TAD (Mar 13, 2006)

http://www.cgaux.com/C-130carrierlanding.htm

The C-130 might not be able to drop much ordanance if none at all, but i could definitely carry bombs internally.


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## PlayboyJoeShmoe (Mar 13, 2006)

I gotta admit DD, that is/was a SEXY airplane!

If I could digitize a lot of my stuff.....


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## Warhead (Mar 13, 2006)

The spectre




&


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## watt4 (Mar 13, 2006)

.









.


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## Sierra_Bill (Mar 14, 2006)

magic79 said:


> I love the looks of the F-16, probably because it looks like my alltime favorite, the F-104. Not to hijack the thread, but I can resist a "pinup":



I had a toy F-104 as a kid and it was one of my favorites. That was my idea of what a fighter should look like. Guess I'm showing my age.

My all-time favorite is still the SR-71. I actually got to see one at Redstone some years ago, but not in action as they'd already been decommissioned. I was so unhappy when the Air Force made that decision!

What really blew me away was an experience I had when I was working as a housecleaner in college. The husband of the woman I was working for had a study and he invited me in. There were photos of all kinds of aircraft on the walls, including the SR-71 and the X-15. Turned out he was a retired Air Force test pilot and he'd flown *every* one of those aircraft. Yes, even the X-15!

Come to think of it, the X-15 was my favorite as a kid.

Bill D.


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## Kiessling (Mar 14, 2006)

Warhead said:


> Here are some B1 shots for you, Kiessling.
> http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f13/warhead4u/lance.jpg
> Too big to post
> Look out below
> Going supersonic


 
Warhead ... your link only leads to teh (cool) supersonic pic ... should there be any more?
Thanx btw ! 

EVAN ... now *that* is a story!

X-15 ... yepp. What a nice little rocket. With daring pilots I'd have to say ...

bernie


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## Icebreak (Mar 14, 2006)

Great pics, guys.

Tomcats are impressive.

I saw an SR-71 coming in hot (emergency landing, everybody OK) while I was on a lake fishing. It didn’t look real as it banked over the lake. Breathtaking.

My high school buddy’s dad flew Aardvarks during development. Interesting stories about hugging the Pacific and how it reacted to small islands.

My dad was an AF pilot. Did a lot of shuttle work so he flew many different WWII aircraft. He was a HUMP pilot. I have his journal. Interesting stories.










Later he flew a KC-97. It makes Dave’s A6 look like a super model.










It had to be in descent to be fast enough to refill a B-47.










Here’s one modified for carrying stuff for NASA.










X-15 launching from B-52.










How about the RAF? I’ve seen this fly at an air show. Beautiful.










As a kid I got to see all kinds of stuff up close. I was allowed to climb up the ladder and peak inside the forward cockpit of a B-58 Hustler. The commander explained all its capabilities. At the time it was arguably the most feared warplane in the skies.










Here’s a nice shot of a C-130J Hercules and the Thunderbirds over the Arkansas State Capital last year. My office is four blocks from there.










At a different air show, here’s a pilot escaping a Thunderbird right before it goes splat.










He made it.


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## ABTOMAT (Mar 14, 2006)

Ooooh, I forgot about the B-58. Lovely plane.

That RAF aircraft is a Vulcan, right? Speaking of the English jobs, how about the Handley Page Victor, one of the Vulcan's stablemates?






And while we're in the '50s, here's a Nord Griffon, a French ramjet-powered experimental.


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## ACMarina (Mar 14, 2006)

I got to watch the B2 Flying Wing land at our local airport one day. THAT was an incredible sight..


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## Seth (Mar 14, 2006)

Now that all those "classics" are mentioned...

Besides the SR-71, one plane that caught my eye for decades is the Saab Draken ( Dragon )








more pictures can be found here: Saab Draken and here more Saab Draken ( Dragon ) 

Seth


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## Icebreak (Mar 14, 2006)

Right, ABTOMAT, a Vulcan. This one's camo is remarkably similar to the Tiger Moth. I would post a pic but I didn't want to OT this into my fascination with the shapes of some moths. 

I looked it up and sure enough you are right again. They called the Vulcan, Victor and the Valiant the "V" bombers. I like that Victor. Rocketeer nose. Stealthy power plants. I want one.

That Griffon...wow. Talk about building the plane around the engine.


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## raggie33 (Mar 14, 2006)

i like planes they used to fly over my house but not in this area they was so loud but cool .they musta been flying to dobbins and lockhead


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## ABTOMAT (Mar 14, 2006)

I think the Victor had a pretty long service life. They outfitted them with various pods and bulges and use the things as tankers. Talk about visual overkill for such a mundane job.

The Griffon was a pretty strange plane. I think it had a normal just engine mounted inside the intake, so it blew through the ramjet until it lighted.

If you're looking for a great book for this stuff there's a beautiful one out there. I have it but it's buried somwhere in the house and I can't remember the name. Published about 1970 the UK, it's a massive (huge!) book chock full of incredible color photos and detailed articles on different important planes, companies, and events. Amazing book. I've been thinking about getting another just in case. "History of World Aviation" or something like that. Can't find anything via Google.


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## Sigman (Mar 14, 2006)

Man, there's some REALLY NICE EYE CANDY in this thread! Thanks folks!


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## ABTOMAT (Mar 14, 2006)

And let's not forget the Avro Arrow. Canada developed this super-advanced interceptor in the '50s, only to have the whole program scrapped right before deployment due to some kind of political conspiracy.


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## DieselDave (Mar 14, 2006)

Want to read a hard to believe but I promise it's true airplane story? I went through training with this unlucky or is it lucky sucker.

http://www.fastpacific.com/scuttlebuttdocs/badflight.html


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## Icebreak (Mar 14, 2006)

Avro Arrow...sweet! 

Nice one on the Saab Draken, Seth.

Hard to believe the design began in 1949, it flew in the early '50s and served in the '60s. With that combo delta it looks very modern, very (dare I say?) F-22ish.

I read it was replaced by the Viggen.


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## magic79 (Mar 15, 2006)

DieselDave said:


> Want to read a hard to believe but I promise it's true airplane story? I went through training with this unlucky or is it lucky sucker.
> 
> http://www.fastpacific.com/scuttlebuttdocs/badflight.html


 

*O M G*


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## flashgreenie (Mar 15, 2006)

They did this global strike mission simulation with four F22, F117s and the B2s against a group of eight F15(simulation the red team). Part of the mission rules was the red team was allow to regenerate at regeneration points. The F22 was used as first wave to 'break down the door' . The F22 team killed the F15s 30 times with no kill on their part!!!!


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## Flying Turtle (Mar 15, 2006)

Here's a few more pretty birds from the Air and Space Museum. The first one is hiding under the tail of a Concorde.

Geoff


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## pedalinbob (Mar 15, 2006)

WOW! That pic of the Thunderbird pilot ejection is incredible!

It appears he waited to the very last second before ejecting, probably trying to guide his jet away from people. I wonder if his chute had time to open?

Nerves of STEEL.

Bob


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## magic79 (Mar 15, 2006)

Bob

If you think that picture is incredible, check this video out...from *INSIDE* the cockpit!

http://www.alexisparkinn.com/photogallery/Videos/TBeject.mpeg

And here is a video from the ground of the same:

http://www.alexisparkinn.com/photogallery/Videos/tbird.wmv

He actually ejected LESS than one second before impact!

Zero-zero ejection seats really do work (in other words, the work at zero altitude-zero velocity). He was fine.


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## Kiessling (Mar 15, 2006)

Oooohhh ... yes, the Vulcan and the Saab jets ... some other classics that are beyonf beautiful and cool. Thanx for the pix!! :thumbsup:


Going back in time ... one of the first jet planes ever ... with a staggering futuristic look for the time:

Me262





bernie


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## PlayboyJoeShmoe (Mar 15, 2006)

That ME262 WAS a cool looking early jet!!!

Oh if I could digitize some of my 35mm stuff!!!

Let me see if I can find something on this 'puter.... nope, must be on old one... :sad:


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## raggie33 (Mar 15, 2006)

who has the best fighter now?usa or rushia? or gb?


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## KC2IXE (Mar 15, 2006)

Seth said:


> ...snip...
> Besides the SR-71, one plane that caught my eye for decades is the Saab Draken ...snip...



I always prefered the Viggen, particularly in the splinter Cammo schemes

http://hem.passagen.se/weasle/eng_index.html


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## ABTOMAT (Mar 16, 2006)

My favorite Saab has always been the Tunnan. Sure it's ugly, but in a cute way.






And who can forget the never-completed German flying wings?






Oh yeah, got pancakes? I couldn't find a good photo of the real thing so here's a model:


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