# Calipers, Digital, Vernier or Dial?



## PEU (Oct 5, 2010)

This is my current desk caliper:






Even if it works OK and batteries last forever I want to purchase a nice caliper "for my desk" this one won't be near the machining area, mostly because there the calipers have a shorter lifespan 

Im looking at ebay and found some nice 0.01mm Mitutoyo dial calipers, I offered this seller $50 for this one shipped and he counter offered $65 There are others but all of them near this price, this one is 0.01 but others are 0.02 and 0.05mm precision.

What you guys think? should I go dial or these are very old school and digital is what will give me the best results?


Pablo


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## unterhausen (Oct 5, 2010)

for me it doesn't make sense to buy anything but a high quality digital caliper. I probably would have paid for a set with the errors I have made with dial, and that's not including my time. Verniers are just silly in my view, maybe if they came with magnifying glasses like the really precise ones do. This is one area where machinists can get macho, but I don't think that's a sensible approach.


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## mototraxtech (Oct 5, 2010)

I like digital as time is important to me and I like a number that i can punch into the calculator and move on.


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## precisionworks (Oct 5, 2010)

> I want to purchase a nice caliper "for my desk" this one won't be near the machining area


As long as there are *NO *chips nearby, it's hard to beat the Starrett 120 (English) or 120M (Metric): http://www.starrett.com/download/61_120_caliper.pdf

Battery life is forever, as there are no batteries to replace :laughing:

Pretty inexpensive on eBay, seems like I paid $53 for my 120 12". It was just a little used, the face needed polishing with SemiChrome, and I also smoothed out some of the edges with a non-woven pad. About $150 new.



> it doesn't make sense to buy anything but a high quality digital caliper.


+1

Not the place to bargain hunt


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## CLBME (Oct 5, 2010)

I don't need a lot of precision as I use mine for hobbies and reloading. I used to use a nice vernier but as noted it was tough with bifocals and I had to use a magnifying glass. I've used a dial too and that was easier for me than the vernier. I recently bought a digital set and I won't go back.


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## kromeke (Oct 5, 2010)

Digitals are my favorite with Mitutoyo at the top of the list. I think they make the best digital calipers bar none. You can spend more, but you won't get a better caliper. 

Dial calipers I avoid. I do like the aesthetics of a nice dial caliper, but I've seen too many with the needle pointing in a funny direction from where the gear has skipped on the rack.

I like vernier calipers. Dead simple, no batteries. But 2 different people will often get answers a division apart. Dirt cheap on ebay. As long as the things haven't been dropped, they should be fine (However, some of the metric ones are hard to read). 

Having said all that, I don't know if I'd trust a dial caliper to 0.01mm. I don't know if I'd trust any caliper down to 0.01mm. You're getting into micrometer (instrument) range.

I have a solar powered Mitutoyo digital that I've owned and used since 1997. They still work and measure out excellent (I check them against some gage blocks every now and then). They don't work in low light. I use them all the time.

I have a Scherr-Tumico (sp?) vernier that is inch-metric with 50 division inch scales. I never use it. I have it just in case my other calipers fail me.

I recently picked up a Tesa (B&S labeled) at the pawn shop for about ~30 dollars US. They are the newer Dura-cal IP67 rated. Nice enough calipers, the price was right, but I still prefer the Mitutoyo I own because it has an absolute scale. The Dura-cal has one button, which means I can reset zero if I don't press it right when I'm switching to the other unit (inch/mm). They passed calibration (me with some gage blocks). So I'm happy with them. They are Swiss made, and (to my surprise, read down to 0.01 mm). I even think they were made this year. 

I hear the newer Mitutoyos are made in Brazil. Haven't heard if quality has been affected. 

All said, I prefer Mitutoyos for my digital caliper needs. I think they are at the top of the game for digital calipers. 

Some people swear by the cheapo HF or equivalent $15 caliper. I'm not one of them.

Edit: just looked again at my Mitutoyo calipers. They read to 0.01mm as well. However, in the specs, they are rated as being accurate to 0.02mm I don't use the metric very often, I'm more on the inch system. Still don't think I'd trust a caliper to 0.01mm.


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## kaptain_zero (Oct 5, 2010)

I have all three types of calipers.... the verniers are now out, eyesight being what it is....<sigh>, even though my 35+ year old metric vernier caliper that I was given waaaay back when I went to Machine & Mechanics school in EU still reads as accurate today as it did back then.... but only if I can see the darn thing. 

Digital calipers...... I don't really care for them... yes, you get nice big numbers to read if you get the right one, but batteries die, cost money, and they do not read any more accurate than dial calipers which I prefer in a heartbeat. I have one that reads inch/metric at the same time on the dial, the other reads Decimal/fractions on the same scale. No button pushing to get to the right display, and most importantly, no issues with converting one fraction to another to get them all the same (in woodworking of course), just pick the right number closest to where you're at that fits. It gets frustrating with digital when you are trying to work in 32nds but the readout only shows 59/128 and you need to convert in your head. The dial lets you do that without all the mental gymnastics. Yeah, you have to keep dial calipers clean, but I've always done that so it's not an issue to me. Dials are generally large enough for me to read without problems. Did I mention that the batteries never go dead?!?! 

I don't think it matters which one you go for.... If I were working with these new digital readout displays, digital would probably be the way to go.... faster to plug the numbers into another digital device, whatever it is... confuser, calculator or digital readout on a lathe/mill....

Measurement confidence does require quality equipment, no "One Hung Lo" branded ebay special will give you that, Starrett, Brown & Sharpe or Mitutoyo and the like would be the way to go.

I would hit the local pawn shops before buying used measurement gear from Ebay.... at least I can put them in my hand and examine them for damage, wear and accuracy ( just take along a couple small parts you know the exact size of already). I've gotten a Brown and Sharp digital micrometer (at the time, local new cost was $1100.... I paid $125), various dial gauges and other gear for quite reasonable prices. 

Regards

Christian


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## PEU (Oct 5, 2010)

Local pawn shops ask ridiculous prices, I'll take my chances with ebay. Last time I purchased calipers they were Wilson Wolpert brand(dutch) did not like them much, purchased a lot of 6, already sold 3 locally at 2.5 times the price I paid for 6  So it pays to try sometimes.

Already saved some ebay searches for Mitutoyo, B&S, Etalon and Starret dials. 
Digital mitus, B&S or Starrett always get a lot of attention and can't be won at reasonable prices.


Pablo


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## leeholaaho (Oct 5, 2010)

harborfreight.com

$9.99 when on sale - they work the same as the $150 ones


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## Atlascycle (Oct 5, 2010)

In my experience if the needle is off on a Dial caliper that is a good indication that it has been dropped. My Starrett 120's read High noon at Zero.....


Jason


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## ironhorse (Oct 5, 2010)

I have never picked up my dial calipers to find the battery dead.


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## precisionworks (Oct 5, 2010)

> harborfreight.com
> 
> $9.99 when on sale - they work the same as the $150 ones


Correct :thumbsup:

PM your phone number, as I have a large tract of swampland in Arizona for sale, really cheap. Even has a view of the Pacific ocean. 

:nana::eeksign:


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## precisionworks (Oct 5, 2010)

> should I go dial or these are very old school and digital is what will give me the best results?


All three have the same accuracy spec, which is +/- .0010" (.025 mm).

None of the three are accurate enough for critical work. They help get close to a dimension on the lathe or mill, and they give a rough dimensional measurement of a part. Rough being the operative word.

If your best measuring instrument is any type of caliper, don't be surprised when parts don't fit.

*But my fancy high dollar digital reads to .0005" (.012 mm)

*Yes it does. Doesn't make it any more accurate, just takes an inaccurate reading to one additional decimal place. This allows you to be very precisely incorrect.


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## kaptain_zero (Oct 5, 2010)

Ah yes, there's nothing like the accuracy of an expensive micrometer, with it's frame firmly grasped in your hot sweaty hand, while you ignore the ratchet knob and just crank it down, til she stops.... on some freshly turned high density polyethylene ! :devil: Who needs those sissy bench micrometer holders anyway?!?!

As for the accuracy of calipers... it's "horses for courses". Sometimes you don't need better, sometimes a skilled user can even challenge a micrometer with one ( I used to be able to at times, but only with my old verniers that I had used for years and learned to compare to micrometers). The calipers I've bought in the past 10 years are nowhere near the same quality as my old pair of verniers.... but then again, with my eyesight... they tend to read about the same anyways.... <sigh>. 

Regards

Christian


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## precisionworks (Oct 6, 2010)

> Who needs those sissy bench micrometer holders anyway?!?!




When I first started working in the mine repair shop, my boss suggested that I buy an older book on inspection & measurement. He disliked anything digital with a passion, & none of the machinists in the factory had a digital caliper or mic in their tool chest. FWIW, I bought a Starrett 123 soon after using his for an ID hole measurement.

Still have that book in "the library" in the shop. Published right after WWII, 1950 or so, and the best training manual I've ever seen on every aspect of measurement. Seems like it cost all of $10.

The one point it drives home is "gauging pressure", which needs to be a consistent and in the range of 1# to 2# (454-908 grams). Same pressure is used with a mic, caliper, bore gauge, etc. Incorrect or inconsistent pressure is probably the main cause of manual measurement error, and failure to centralize the instrument is number two.


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## leeholaaho (Oct 6, 2010)

precisionworks said:


> Correct :thumbsup:
> 
> PM your phone number, as I have a large tract of swampland in Arizona for sale, really cheap. Even has a view of the Pacific ocean.
> 
> :nana::eeksign:



Well the ones I got for 9 bucks work just as well as the 175 buck ones I use at work, same reading every time - maybe I got a great one

Give them a try - you can either be out 9 bucks or just take them back

I would not have posted it if I did not have them and think they were decent for casual use, you even get a spare battery

Read the reviews at the link and then tell me about swamp land - just because you pay 200 bucks for a 20 buck item does not mean it is any better

$9.99 when on sale http://www.harborfreight.com/6-inch-digital-caliper-47257.html


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## wquiles (Oct 6, 2010)

Most everything I do is down to 0.001". I know it is an overkill for most everybody else, specially for internal parts/fit that nobody will ever see, but that is how I build everything - pretty much everything is fitted.

For OD, for quick measurements to 0.001" (90-95% of what I do) I use calipers. I started with regular digital calipers, then nicer digital calipers, and then a very nice dial caliper from Mitutoyo with carbide tipped in/out jaws:











But as nice as the Mitutoyo caliper was, in my humble opinion none had the repeatability I needed/wanted - they all seem too sensitive to pressure on the item you are trying to measure, so to me the repeatability was not there - too much flex for me.

Thanks to Barry I learned about the 50 division vernier master calipers (model No. 123) from Starrett, and I have never looked back ever since. It is the "best" caliper I have ever used, and I can consistently measure down to 0.001 every single time - no guess work. Due to their adjusting pressure wheel I get really consistent measurements - much more consistent than any other caliper I had before. Part of this consistency is simply due to the massive weight and construction of these master calipers - they are much stiffer than other calipers, and they stay in calibration (I regularly check mine against my 0.00005" Mitutoyo QuantuMike Micrometer and the master gauges they come with). I got various of them, in inch/inch, and in the very rare inch/metric, which gives me direct reading on both inch and metric. Yes, they are "slow" and need a consistent technique to read (directly from above and with good lighting), but once you nail the technique, it is easy - I actually take pleasure and pride in taking measurements with these "old school" measuring tools, which still to this day are "more" accurate than dial calipers (I think Barry had the link to the analysis that proves this objectively):
















I know it is a little bit "sacrilegious" but I did cut my larger inch/metric model to a more "handy" size/weight, and this is the one I now use like 90%+ of the time:






I also have (thanks to Barry again) a special version from Mitutoyo that has much deeper jaws or "long jaws" for special cases where my Starretts can't take the measurement:







For OD, for really accurate measurements to less than 0.001" (usually trying to hit 0.0005") I get out the 0-1" or 1-2" Mitutoyo QuantuMike Micrometers since my Master Starrett Calipers can't accurately distinguish those smaller variations:











For measuring ID, like most I started using the calipers, but again they are not (in my humble opinion) not good enough and nor repeatable enough for measuring ID. Instead, thanks to Barry, I purchased a very nice set of inside telescoping gage set (usually aroung $100 for a good set - stay away from the cheap sets!) to take the measurement, and then read that value directly on my Starrett Master Caliper, or my QuantuMike Micrometer if I need more accuracy (again 90-95% of the time the Starrett Vernier caliper gives me enough). You can see one of these gauges being used here:






This is the exact set that I got:
http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INSRIT?PARTPG=INLMKD&PMPXNO=22507921&PMAKA=327-2795



Will


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## precisionworks (Oct 6, 2010)

> just because you pay 200 bucks for a 20 buck item does not mean it is any better


I'll pay you $20 for your $9.99 HF digital (and you get to keep the calipers) *with only one condition*:

That they pass the certification testing showing that they have been calibrated using standards and equipment which are traceable to NIST (National Institute of Standards and Technology). My $200 Mitu's pass each time. 

Take your calipers to whichever instrument testing lab you prefer (as long as they can issue an NIST cert), have them calibrated, take a photo of the cert & post it in this thread. I'll send $20 by PayPal or Money Order, whichever you prefer. It should look something like this sample cert:






My lab returns any instrument within 10 days of receipt, so you should be able to post a photo within a couple of weeks. The certs normally cost $17, so you'll make some money on this deal :twothumbs GageSite is one of the bigger cal labs, but there seems to be one or two in any large city: http://www.gagesite.com/caliper-calibration-p-721000-l-en.html


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## precisionworks (Oct 6, 2010)

> Published right after WWII, 1950 or so, and the best training manual I've ever seen on every aspect of measurement. Seems like it cost all of $10.



Inspection and Gaging, by Clifford Kennedy. I have the first edition, published in 1951, but the newest version is the 6th addition. $35 on Amazon for the new one, $5-$10 for an older version. The best book I've ever read on this subject.

http://www.amazon.com/dp/0831111496/?tag=cpf0b6-20


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## precisionworks (Oct 6, 2010)

> I learned about the 50 division vernier master calipers (model No. 123) from Starrett ... which still to this day are "more" accurate than dial calipers


The vernier caliper with thumb wheel advance (Starrett 123 or equal) allows adjustment of the gauging pressure being applied to the part being measured. It excels during the measurement of inside diameters, when the depth to be measured does not exceed the length of the contact nibs. It also does very well for OD and length measurement, again because of the thumb wheel adjustment for gauging pressure.

Both digital calipers & dial calipers (of any cost, any brand, any age) lack this feature. A highly skilled operator *can get *repeatable readings from a digital or a dial, but only a small number of machinists are able to do this.

Most users of digital calipers don't believe this, but the test is easy. Open your set of gauge blocks, Class B or better with NIST cert. (If the blocks are Best of China brand, no cert, they are next to useless for this ... or for anything.) Using a certified gauge block set, in a shop that maintains a constant 68° F (20° C) temperature, and away from direct sunlight or drafts, pick at random a couple of dozen gauge blocks. Lay them *marked side down *on a granite flat or on a cast iron flat & let them temp stabilize for 20 minutes. Pick up one (using tweezers so your fingers don't change the size of the gauge block) measure it with the digital, record the reading, then turn the block over & record the block's marked dimension.

IF YOU SCORE CORRECTLY:

24 out of 24 (digital reading & guage block reading are identical) - you qualify for a job at any inspection department on earth.

18 out of 24 - much better than average 

12 out of 24 - not bad. Half the readings are correct, half are wrong. Pretty much the results that most digital users get, even though they think that the readings are correct because measurements display to .0005" (.012 mm). 

There's nothing inherently wrong with a digital (or dial) caliper *except that it requires identical gauging pressure for each measurement.* Without a thumb wheel to close the jaws, using exactly the same gauging pressure time after time after time is almost impossible. Again, pull out a certified guage block, but this time use the one marked 1.0000". Close it very lightly & watch it display 1.0015". Close the jaws with correct guaging pressure & watch it read 1.0000". Close it tightly and it displays .9995" or maybe .9990". *And that assumes using a high quality caliper with a recent calibration cert (less than 12 months since last cal).*

If you have the skill to use a digital (or dial) caliper, which means you can apply identical gauging pressure for every measurement, you should be proud - less than 10 people out of 100 can do this time after time, day after day. If you're like me & most everyone else, use a digital (or dial) to get into the ballpark. Then use something with the required accuracy to finish the job. As I said before, they allow the user to be very precisely incorrect. Fast - yes. Accurate - not very.


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## mototraxtech (Oct 6, 2010)

This is what I did. I took my one inch block that came with my Mititoyo mic 1"-2" range. I assume in is VERY accurate to one inch and comes with a cert. I took my digital $30 caliper(the same one could be had for about $10 if I would have looked) and it read .9985. Note I had NO problems repeating this measurement at all. In fact the only time I have troubles is when something is on the lathe in which case I just use the mic anyways. Basically I use the calipers to measure the length or thickness of something, NOT the diameter. That means that is was only .0015 off or 1.5 THOUSANDS off. I do all my work to +- .001 so that inst really that bad being off by only .0015. Its not like I trust the last digit anyways so it was really only off by .001" that to me is acceptable especially since this thing has been through a lot and has been highly abused and dropped to many times to count.

So doing my work to +- 0.001" and then add 0.001" to that gives me a range of +-0.002" which is VERY accurate for $10. And KNOWING what the measurement is off I can ad that to my measurement and it evens it back out to +- 0.001"

I have found that the inside gauge on my caliper to be very far off. I think it is almost 0.005" off. Which explains a lot why I was having a hard time making part to size when it was the only device I had to measure with. But even with it being so far off I can calculate that difference and than just add it up in the end.

So as far as the fancy mititoyos that are VERY expensive and all the veniers that are even more expensive if you are ok with plus or minus 0.001" you can get that without to much trouble from a cheaper caliper.

Of course if I had the cash I would go for the better stuff but that's not the case nor is it necessary.

With that being said mine is not waterproof and is falling apart after being in my toolbox(with dirt bike tools) for that last two years.

I'm not sure what kind of accuracy you go for but for what I do +- 0.001" is plenty.


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## precisionworks (Oct 6, 2010)

> I took my one inch block that came with my Mititoyo mic 1"-2" range. I *assume* in is VERY accurate to one inch



Micrometer standards are pretty much useless if you need any degree of accuracy. They are often in error by as much as 100 millionths. Even the cheapest Grade B gauge blocks have only half as much error (50 millionths). 

Most cheapo 1-2-3 blocks are as accurate as a micrometer standard  


> and comes with a cert


Most high end mics are available with a NIST cert - Starrett & Mitu both offer these at extra cost. The standards are a different story - they cannot be trusted to be any better than +/- .0001", and the "standard" with one of my Mitu mics is off nearly twice that amount


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## mototraxtech (Oct 6, 2010)

still we are dealing with tens at this point which is WAY more accurate than anything I do. Like I said plus or minus .001 so I have no problem calibrating with .0001. I will have to look at my mic when I get home and see what it is calibrated to but I would think that the mic bar would be pretty acurate beings that the device itself was im pretty sure to .00005 but I will have to check. Either way though we are talking about a difference that would change with a degree or two in temp which is negligible for MOST machining.


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## precisionworks (Oct 6, 2010)

> I'm not sure what kind of accuracy you go for but for what I do +- 0.001" is plenty.



Rule of thumb in all metrology is that the measuring instrument has to be 10X more accurate than the callout. If your part or print calls out +/- .00100", the instrument (mic, caliper, whatever you use) has to be accurate to .00010" (which no caliper is). 

For the instrument to be calibrated to .00010", the standard must be accurate to 10X that, or .00001"

That's 10 millionths of an inch, meaning you'll need a set of lab grade gauge blocks (minimum of Class AA) and a temp controlled room for calibration.

So what good is a caliper? Really coarse measurements are its strength. If the call out is +/- .005", any caliper works great. Anything finer than that & you're doing nothing but kidding yourself. When you spend four hours making a part to print & the customer rejects it for over size or under size *because you relied on a caliper*, don't worry. Those parts make nice (if somewhat expensive) paper weights.



> I have no problem calibrating with .0001"


Unless you have Grade AA gauge blocks, or some other reference master, it's impossible to calibrate *any* instrument to .0001". Don't be surprised when your "calibrated" mic is off enough to make lots of scrap parts.


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## wquiles (Oct 6, 2010)

precisionworks said:


> Inspection and Gaging, by Clifford Kennedy. I have the first edition, published in 1951, but the newest version is the 6th addition. $35 on Amazon for the new one, $5-$10 for an older version. The best book I've ever read on this subject.
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/dp/0831111496/?tag=cpf0b6-20



Just ordered a copy - thanks for the reference and link


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## mototraxtech (Oct 6, 2010)

so what your saying is it doesn't matter how much I spend on a measuring tool none of them are accurate so why bother.

I have made many parts and they all fit fine so I don't get what the fuse is about. Why in the world would it have to be 10X more accurate to get a measurement.

If the mic says the part A has a hole that is 0.754" and the the caliper says the other part is 0.750" and they make a decent slip then whats the problem.


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## precisionworks (Oct 6, 2010)

> Just ordered a copy - thanks for the reference


You're welcome :thumbsup: Inspection & Gaging is a classic that's survived for 59 years. I should go ahead & buy the 6th edition, as one or two things have probably changed during that time :nana:

I have dozens of machining, metalworking & welding books, all purchased used on eBay, Half.com/Books, Alibris, AbeBooks, etc. 

And from my neighbor. Neat guy, retired from teaching, moved here to The Middle of Nowhere & started selling used books on eBay, has 100% feedback (around 2500 positives so far). Stops by every now & then with an old machinery book or two, always dirt cheap.

Books are like tooling that never wears out.


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## FlashKat (Oct 11, 2010)

.004" is a big difference. Most calipers in general will read fairly accurate, but it all depends on how critical the tolerance is that you are working with.
I use to machine parts, and the Quality Inspectors told me that I had 40 bad parts, and I told them to clean and recalibrate their height gauge. My parts were all good.
I have seen Machinists that use a micrometer like C-clamp when measuring and wonder why they have issues, then I have seen Machinists that could measure within .003" with a Machinists ruler.
It comes down to how careful and good you really are at measuring.



mototraxtech said:


> so what your saying is it doesn't matter how much I spend on a measuring tool none of them are accurate so why bother.
> 
> I have made many parts and they all fit fine so I don't get what the fuse is about. Why in the world would it have to be 10X more accurate to get a measurement.
> 
> If the mic says the part A has a hole that is 0.754" and the the caliper says the other part is 0.750" and they make a decent slip then whats the problem.


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## precisionworks (Oct 12, 2010)

> I have seen Machinists that could measure within .003" with a Machinists ruler.


Could you expand on that? 

English reading steel rules have graduations to either 1/64" (.015") or to 1/100" (.010"). 

Metric reading steel rules show either 1mm (.039") or 1/2mm.

It's not possible to measure to a tolerance that is more fine than the graduations on the measuring instrument, unless the instrument has an amplified scale that allows interpolation - like a dial indicator graduated in .001", but with enough distance between marks that .0005" can be interpolated.

Most metrology books (like Inspection & Gaging by Kennedy) state that 1/64" is a fine as can reliably & repeatedly measured. But if you feel you can do better, use a 1/100" rule, like this one:







On my monitor, 1" on the rule equals 5" on the screen. For me to clearly see the lines would require at least 5X magnification with 20-20 vision. If your vision is better, you'd need less magnification, perhaps none at all. That would allow reading a measurement with .010".

I worked for a year with a machine shop supervisor who could repeatedly measure & mark out to 1/64". If machinists were judged on a percentile scale, he'd probably fall around the 97th or 98th percentile. But read to .003" on a steel rule - no. If you magnify any steel rule in your drawer, you'll find that almost every one has machine engraved markings that are .003" wide, and perhaps that's where this urban legend started.


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## 350xfire (Oct 12, 2010)

precisionworks said:


> Correct :thumbsup:
> 
> PM your phone number, as I have a large tract of swampland in Arizona for sale, really cheap. Even has a view of the Pacific ocean.
> 
> :nana::eeksign:


 
Crap you mean the Harbor Freight stuff is not as good as the expensive stuff???

Guys, I think the moral of the story is buy what you need to build what you want to build. If you want to build parts like Precision and Will, buy the high dollar stuff. If you are like me and many other hobby machinists out there, get by with HFT $10 measuring tools and be off a bit! Everything has a purpose in life and that holds true for the expensive rocket-building tools and the cheap flashlight-modifying tools!


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## unterhausen (Oct 14, 2010)

I can't even stand to hold most HF measuring tools in my hand. I think the last time I was in a HF, I came to the conclusion that the best idea for most of their tools was if someone drove a dump truck through the front door and just used a front loader to fill it. It just seems to me that ebay has a lot of quality tools, and even the quality of the Chinese stuff is better from many vendors than the stuff you can get from HF. My philosophy about tools is that you are still living with the quality of a tool long after you/your wife forgets how much it cost.


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## wquiles (Oct 14, 2010)

It is great to have good, accurate instruments, that you can trust.

I recently was given these 4x sections to bore out, so that one could fit 26650 cells:






I have done this before, and last time, once indicated on the boring bar, I simply adjusted the X in the lathe to take a hair more than the 0.006" cut I used last time. The prior target was 1.041" to 1.042", but since I am doing 4 of them I wanted a slightly larger ID to make sure any combination of the 4x adapters would work well, even if they were not perfectly concentric to each other.

I measured the "before" ID with my STI inside gauges and my trusty but old fashion 50-div Starrett Vernier caliper, and I got this (mind you, these are all done by a CNC machine):
Tube 1: 1.029"
Tube 2: 1.028"
Tube 3: 1.030"
Tube 4: 1.029"

So I bored out each adapter individually, not touching the X on the lathe between tubes:











And checked with an actual cell to make sure the ID was good:






Once I was done, I measured the 4x tubes again with my STI/Starrett Vernier caliper: I got 1.044" on all them. So then I took out my 1-2" Mitu and checked to see how accurate was that Starrett measurement, and this is what I got:
Tube 1: 1.0438"
Tube 2: 1.0437"
Tube 3: 1.0438"
Tube 4: 1.0441"






So it looks like my Starrett is measuring a "tad" on the high side, but that is still pretty good or close enough for the work I do. Not bad for my "old technology" Vernier caliper 

Will


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## nfetterly (Oct 14, 2010)

Interesting read - being a chemical engineer & doing no machining. I did get a set of (cheap) calipers impounded by Canadian Security in Halifax 2 years ago (oooh, pointy) - at that point I decided HF. Last time I used mine was for measuring diameter / thickness of lens to see if I coupld get sapphire lens. Good enough for that (I hope!!)


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## OCD (Oct 14, 2010)

I don't own a mill or a lathe, but I have been acquiring measuring tools from my dad who used to be a machinist. I already had a 0-6" Mitutoyo dial calipers and 0-1" Mitutoyo tube micrometer. He just recently gave me a Brown & Sharpe No. 617, 0-3" depth micrometer (circa 1929-30) and a Brown & Sharpe No. 45, 0-2" micrometer...which used to be my grandpa's. I would like to find out more on the No. 45 to see about how old it is.

These two B&S mics may not be the most accurate by today's standards, but there is just something about using an old tool that probably cost someone a good portion of their wages and which they probably valued highly. I would love to know the stories these tools hold.


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## precisionworks (Oct 14, 2010)

A customer stopped by tonight with a rush job on a stainless steel shaft. The main shaft was 1.5000" diameter by 48" long, with one end turned down to 1.2495" and_ the other end turned to 1.2640_  Since the fittings to go on the shaft were both bored to 1.2500", he had a small problem.

My Mitu 1"-2" mic was used to check both end diameters. The Starrett 123 vernier caliper measured the end fitting bores. The 8" Set-Tru was already on the spindle, & most of the shaft was pushed through the chuck so that only the reduced section stuck out. Using a superfinisher insert (CCGT designed for aluminum, titanium, stainless, etc.) the piece was touched off, DRO set to zero, and tool advanced .0050" on the radius. The mic showed 1.2545", meaning only .0046" more needed to be removed. Fed the tool in a few tenths at a time (easy to do, as the DRO reads out in .0002" increments) and ended up at 1.2498". Good enough, even though I wanted to hit 1.2499" 

The digital caliper never came out of the drawer :nana:

Had it been relied up, that job would have turned out ugly.


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## precisionworks (Oct 14, 2010)

> These two B&S mics may not be the most accurate by today's standards ...


As long as the screw thread was accurately ground and lapped, and the tool doesn't have excessive wear, it will probably pass a NIST calibration 

If you have a mic of known accuracy (or can borrow one) it doesn't take long to verify the accuracy of the B&S mic. They made some awfully nice tools.

Victor Sewing Machine Company made some mics in the late 1800's. Victor later sold the patent rights, parts and manufacturing equipment to Brown & Sharpe in 1883. Some of the most desirable and rare are the exposed thread mics with the Victor markings:






They show up from time to time on eBay ... $350 to $400 is the usual price


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## mototraxtech (Oct 15, 2010)

precisionworks said:


> A customer stopped by tonight with a rush job on a stainless steel shaft. The main shaft was 1.5000" diameter by 48" long, with one end turned down to 1.2495" and_ the other end turned to 1.2640_  Since the fittings to go on the shaft were both bored to 1.2500", he had a small problem.
> 
> My Mitu 1"-2" mic was used to check both end diameters. The Starrett 123 vernier caliper measured the end fitting bores. The 8" Set-Tru was already on the spindle, & most of the shaft was pushed through the chuck so that only the reduced section stuck out. Using a superfinisher insert (CCGT designed for aluminum, titanium, stainless, etc.) the piece was touched off, DRO set to zero, and tool advanced .0050" on the radius. The mic showed 1.2545", meaning only .0046" more needed to be removed. Fed the tool in a few tenths at a time (easy to do, as the DRO reads out in .0002" increments) and ended up at 1.2498". Good enough, even though I wanted to hit 1.2499"
> 
> ...




Why would using the caliper have been so bad. An average nice digital caliper can read to .001 repeadadly. If you took the telescoping gauges and measured the ID of the parts and then measured them on you caliper you could have found the same number. As far as I know the Starrett 123 vernier caliper can only go down to .001 as well. I still don't understand how a device that can be used to consistently measure something to the correct amount of digits and is CONFIRMED by a MUCH more accurate device can be so bad.

I would try to prove this but I fear you would find flaws in my experiment no matter what I did. If calipers are so bad then why do so many companies keep buying them.

And you say they are good for .01 measurements but I for one don't buy tools that cost 300 or more to get to .01 as a descent machinist ruler could get you that close.

I just don't buy that they are bad as I have tested them and I can get the right measurements all day long to .001 if I try at all. I do however like your vernier but I think you MAY be slightly bias on you classic tools.


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## OCD (Oct 15, 2010)

precisionworks said:


> If you have a mic of known accuracy (or can borrow one) it doesn't take long to verify the accuracy of the B&S mic. They made some awfully nice tools.



My B&S mic is adjustable and will do 0-1" as wells as 1"-2". I was able to set it at "0" with a 1.000" gauge and it checked out at 1.000" so it still seems to be accurate and is much more accurate than using my calipers for anything I currently do.


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## gadget_lover (Oct 15, 2010)

Barry was using a micrometer for the delicate measurements. 

Using a digital caliper, you have the problems of :
1) might apply too much or too little pressure, changing the reading.
2) The 1.249 may be .1.2495 or .1.2485, and you don't know which.
3) The caliper may read the same every time, but there are errors in length too, and you don't know where those errors start.
4) A good micrometer design will cancel out expansion/contraction with heat. A cheap one is unknown.

With an analog measuring device marked in .001 divisions, I can tell when I'm near the middle of two marks, so I can come close to .0003 accuracy. With a digital marked in .0005 but accurate to .001, I can only come within .001 of what I think it is.


OCD, that's great. I like old tools too. 


Daniel


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## mototraxtech (Oct 15, 2010)

gadget_lover said:


> Barry was using a micrometer for the delicate measurements.
> 
> Using a digital caliper, you have the problems of :
> 1) might apply too much or too little pressure, changing the reading.
> ...




1) I cant speak for others but I can get very repeatable measurements if the part is sitting correctly.

2) Not sure why the measurements would change unless you are referring to the first one.

3) Is there not error in length on a vernier as well.

4) I was talking about digital calipers compared to a vernier caliper. I know a good mic is always going to be more accurate.


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## FlashKat (Oct 16, 2010)

I did not believe him until he proved it to me. We got 5 different size blocks, and I measured each with a micrometer. Every block he measured was either a good guess, or something. I saw it with my own eyes.


precisionworks said:


> Could you expand on that?
> 
> English reading steel rules have graduations to either 1/64" (.015") or to 1/100" (.010").
> 
> ...


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## gadget_lover (Oct 16, 2010)

mototraxtech said:


> 1) I cant speak for others but I can get very repeatable measurements if the part is sitting correctly.
> 
> 2) Not sure why the measurements would change unless you are referring to the first one.
> 
> 3) Is there not error in length on a vernier as well.



When you say repeatable... are you saying that you would bet money that you will get the same reading 3 times in a row? Would you make that bet again and again? I usually measure several times and use the smallest that comes up more than 1 time. 

From the HF web site: http://www.harborfreight.com/4-inch-digital-caliper-47256.html

# Resolution: 0.0005" (0.01mm)
# Accurate to ± 0.001" (0.03mm)

So it will display to .0005 what it thinks is correct, but what it thinks is correct will only be within .001 (plus or minus) of the real length.

If my thinking is correct....

Actual length .1012
It can think it's between .1002 and .1022. ,
It will round to the nearest .0005, so it will display between .100 and .102. That's off by more than the claimed accuracy. The question is... do you take off .002 more when it reads .102 ? 

Add any inaccuracies in your measuring technique, and you easily add another .0005 Then you have up to .0015 that you can be off.

Personally, I use the cheap China calipers a lot. I realize that they are best when used as a comparator and for getting in the ball park. Since I almost never need to get down to really precise parts, it's not been a problem. 

The advantage a vernier caliper has is that you can SEE which side of .101 you are on. You can see that you are really a little bigger, or a little smaller, even if you can not accurately tell how much.

I could, of course, be all wet.

Daniel


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## precisionworks (Oct 16, 2010)

> I could, of course, be all wet.


Not at all, Daniel. You summarized well the inherent accuracy & repeatability problems with almost all calipers.

The main problem with every caliper (that lacks a thumb wheel advance) is that the frames are wimpy and that allows easy deflection of the jaws. Check this with any digi cal you have - squeeze just a little hard and read low, squeeze with medium pressure and get a middle reading, squeeze lightly and get a high reading. Frames that are _designed by the marketing department_ are the biggest problem for most calipers. If marketing departments did a market survey that indicated the color pink would outsell stainless, we'd all be using pink calipers :nana:

The only class of caliper that is made with an adequate frame is the Starrett 123 or equal:






Adequate is an understatement, as these calipers are so substantially built that jaw deflection is almost impossible. That's the reason that top machinists today continue to buy and use the thumbwheel adjusted vernier - it is much easier to get repeatable readings with a Starrett 123 (or equal) than it is with any other caliper made, either today or in the past.

Digital, dial & regular vernier calipers have their place. They excel when a fast measurement is needed and when great accuracy is not needed. Roughing down 2.000" stock in the lathe & want to end up somewhere around 1.750" - use whatever you want to get the diameter to 1.760", or perhaps (if you have perfect technique & exceptional feel) go all the way to 1.755" before switching to the proper finishing instrument. I'll admit that my skills with regular calipers are not the best, so I get the part to within ten thousandths and switch to a mic, thumb wheel vernier, or other high accuracy instrument.

Most full time machinists have little use for any caliper (except the Starrett 123 or equal). The inherent deficiencies are obvious to anyone who takes the time to find out their limitations. The biggest problem, especially with digital, is that many users believe anything digital, since that technology is so much a part of modern life. The digital odometer on my wife's bicycle is far more accurate than any digital caliper ever made:nana:

Accurate measurement is part art, part science. Quite a few people don't spend the time to learn accurate measurement, and some of their parts still work. If more than 50% of the parts you make need to be correct, it's worth the time to study basic measurement & gaging, and to buy appropriate measuring tools.


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## mototraxtech (Oct 17, 2010)

I would be the first to tell you that I generally get sucked into believing digital means correct. But at that some time I really don't see how people cannot make a repeatable accurate digital caliper.

My biggest question would be. You have decided that a digital caliper used CORRECTLY will bring you to +-.001. I do not even look at the last number as I don't trust it anyways so I don't account for that error. So my question is do these fancy starret 123's not have at least +-.001 over their length.


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## PEU (Oct 17, 2010)

to update 1st post, I have sniped a couple of auctions and failed and I have 5 searches saved on ebay for metric dials from mitu and starrett and also some verniers (etalon/mitu/starrett), lets see what luck brings home 


Pablo


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## precisionworks (Oct 17, 2010)

You'll get them sooner than later ... without a 7-segment LCD display, there's not a lot of interest from the unwashed masses


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## mototraxtech (Oct 18, 2010)

I actually find that ALOT of measuring device found on Ebay go for MUCH less than they are worth.


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## precisionworks (Oct 18, 2010)

> metric *dials* from mitu and starrett and also some *verniers* (etalon/mitu/starrett)


Pablo, 

The dial calipers, like digital calipers, are lightly built & have the same jaw deflection issues. Good for quickly roughing down, never need batteries, but watch out around a lathe or mill ... one tiny chip in the gear rack & you'll have to take the instrument apart, clean out the chip, and put back together. Not a deal breaker, and I've lost count of how many times this has happened, but something to be aware of.

The Starrett 123 (English units) often sell on eBay for crazy low prices, $25-50 sometimes. The problem is that you need either the 123M (metric only) or the 123EM (English & metric). They probably show up on eBay Europe more often than they do on eBay USA.

The Mitu thumb wheel vernier is another excellent instrument - I have one in 18" length & it was cheaper than cheap  Look for the Mitu as Series 160 ... they are pretty common inch/metric, metric only, or metric/inch. As well made as Starrett (IMO) but without the name recognition & the higher prices.







Looks just like a Starrett 123 ... wonder why  If you can't invent something better than the 123, just copy it & add your own name.

Just found this quote on the Long Island Indicator siteL



> Before we start, let's state outright that the best, most reliable, and most useful caliper you can own is a *vernier* caliper. It isn't electronic and it doesn't have a dial.
> 
> These precursors to the dial calipers can still be found in the hands of skilled tool makers. It requires mastery of reading the vernier scale. The most obvious advantage? No dial, no movement, nothing to break. The disadvantage? Generally more expensive than their dial sporting cousins, probably because it's costly to engrave all those little lines and numbers. These calipers probably never need repair, so the extra cost may be worth it. It'll also make you look truly professional (try not to have an appearance of superiority).
> 
> ...


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## PEU (Oct 18, 2010)

yep, tons of inch calipers, so few of metric only ones, but I agree, sooner than lather one will appear 


Pablo


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## precisionworks (Oct 19, 2010)

> The Mitu thumb wheel vernier is another excellent instrument ... Look for the Mitu as Series 160



Be careful ... the 160 Series is available both with and without the thumbwheel: http://www.mitutoyo.com.sg/documents/manuals/index/2-1_Caliper.pdf

Why a manufacturer would make a heavy duty vernier caliper without the fine feed feature is beyond me ... about as useless as a car without any tires 

You mentioned Etalon, which is now a part of Brown & Sharpe Metrology. I have an older Etalon 18" height gage & it is incredibly well made (Swiss). You may already know that Etalon (actually _étalon _in French) means standard, or measurement standard. What might be called a master_._


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## mototraxtech (Oct 20, 2010)

For cost saving reasons I have decided to give the vernier a try. For the digital calipers I want to get is around 700 for the three. I think I can probally pic up a nice mitu or starret vernier for under 100 easy.

Anyone use both the mitu and starret to compare them. Which ones nicer and what not.

Also could someone explain the fine feed. I assume you lock the feed bracket to the bar and then turn the fine feed into the work peice to give more even pressure and to allow the position to stay even with the part taken out.

Thanks!



PS I have two people who are coming to look at the lathe and both sound very interested so I might be looking at getting a bigger machine after all.
Of courese I will have to get a house with a garage first.:devil:


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## wquiles (Oct 20, 2010)

I only kept two of them, but I have had a total of 5 various Sttarrett #123 50-div vernier calipers, all bought from Ebay, and I still have one Mitu 50-division vernier caliper, one with the large/deep jaws. I honestly feel the Starrett is easier to read, and of higher quality, and it is still my preferred one.

Will


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## precisionworks (Oct 20, 2010)

> the Starrett is easier to read, and of higher quality


I'll post a side by side photo later of the Mitu & the Starrett ... they are both of highest quality although I prefer Starrett because that keeps jobs in the USA. Nothing against Japan, their machine tools, tooling & gages are some of the best in the world, but I cannot call the Utsunomiya Calibration center (nor the Kiyohara Calibration center, nor the Tsukuba Calibration center) and get even a simple question answered ... you think they'd learn to speak English :nana:

By and large, Mitsu master vernier calipers _sell for less on eBay USA_ than Starrett 123 calipers. Most any machinist who understands precision metrology has one or two Starrett 123's in the tool chest, so there's some continuing demand for the 123. Quite a few people in the USA are unaware of the Mitu 160, although that my not be the case in the rest of the world. Seems like my nearly new 18" Mitu 160 was well under $50 on eBay.

You'll want to carefully examine the jaw contact & jaw parallelism of any used vernier. I had one #123 with bell mouthed jaws, making it good only for ID measurements. Starrett will regrind & relap the #123, but the cost is often more than buying another #123. Of the five I had, only one was like this ... people tend to take care of something that costs $600 :thumbsup:

Any master vernier can give extraordinarily accurate ID measurements if the jaws are measured with a mic instead of reading the measurement directly from the vernier scale. The same applies to OD measurements, by using a comparative technique (like wringing together a stack of gage blocks or screwing together a length of space blocks). Both gage blocks and space blocks are awfully handy to have (as is a set of pin gages).


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## mototraxtech (Oct 20, 2010)

I just want to get it down to .001. That is really about 10 or so thousands more than MOST people NEED anyway but I am really picky. If it can do that and does not take me all week to read the number I will be happy. I am going to see if I can find a 6" and a 12". I am also going to get some mitu digital mics. Probably the qauntimics as I just found out they go up to 4".


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## mototraxtech (Oct 20, 2010)

Interesting, I just read a bit about quantization error of digital devices. Basically ALL digital devices have an error of +- the last digit displaced. Or at least accurate to.

Anybody know more about this. I would like to know what causes this error.


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## gadget_lover (Oct 20, 2010)

Just a guess....

The digital signals are on or off. There is no such thing as 'close to' so when you set the zero point, you are actually picking an arbitrary spot between two signals. When you stop moving the sensor, you are again using an arbitrary point between two signals.

Try duplicating the function with a tape measure that has 1/16ths on it. Blindly mark two spots, then count only the number of marks between them. You will miss the space to the left of the first mark and the right of the second one.

Did that make sense?

Daniel


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## mototraxtech (Oct 20, 2010)

HMMM could be. At least in theory it makes since. Like on a normal mike you can turn it in. If it start or stops between to line on the nob you can account for it but a digital would either start at one or the other.


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## PEU (Oct 20, 2010)

Today instead of looking for new calipers I compared three measurement tools I have here at the office, the digital that is always at my desk, a wilson wolpert vernier with 0.02mm/division and an el cheapo mic 

To make things more interesting I measured with each of the instruments three pieces and with every piece I changed the order, you will see a small number before the measurement, thats the order. All units are mm

The tools:





The measured items: Dental pick shank, Tap shank and thread gage thickness






The results:






Comments:

The 3rd line (blacked out) I started with the mic, I may have pressed the part incorrectly because when I used the digital the difference was obvious, it wasn't obvious before this second measure, so the old saying applies here: measure twice, cut once 

Even with the vernier being 0.02mm accurate, the lines before and after the one I picked were extremely close to being my choice, maybe a 0.01mm/div vernier can solve this, but Im not sure such a tool exist.

The mic is not milesimal, so the 3rd digit is 5 if the measurement was inbetween two divisions

Most measurements were in the 0.02~0.05mm range of error, can I live with that? yes I can! 

do I still want a vernier, yes I do! but not for the precision, I want more easy to read values, with this model I have to tilt the caliper, the starrett for example both the fixed and moving parts are at the same level, so if you see one line, you see the other line too, no tilting.

Models I liked:

Mitutoyo 532-120 (metric/inch) with fine adjustment 0.02mm/div
Mitutoyo 531-128 (metric/inch) with Thumb Clamp 0.02mm/div

This ebay seller is running a 60% off promotion on mitutoyo items, but the ones I liked aren't on their listing, I sent them an email but no response yet, I don't want to call but I may change my mind as these prices are nice 

This 0-5" model looks great at $67 shipped

Opinions.. Sugestions?


Pablo


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## precisionworks (Oct 20, 2010)

> Opinions.. Sugestions?


I thought you'd never ask :nana:






The Starrett vernier is level with the main scale, while the Mitu vernier is angled to the main scale. Both are satin chrome finished & easy to read.






The Mitu bar is a rectangular section, ground & lapped on the upper & lower sliding surfaces. The Starrett uses a more complex section, somewhat like the V-ways on a machine tool, as shown below.










Some larger calipers have deeper jaws, like the 18" Mitu shown above.








> This 0-5" model looks great at $67 shipped


That model suffers from the same lack of rigidity as any digital or dial caliper. The thumbwheel adjuster will help apply gaging pressure, but the lightweight frame & jaws are easily deflected. Compare the construction of the 502 Series to the 160 Series (18" Mitu) shown above. The 502 is more like the 6" Starrett dial or the 6" Mitu digital.



> do I still want a vernier, yes I do! but not for the precision, I want more easy to read values


Pablo, if you don't need the precision of a master vernier caliper, buy a decent dial or digital as the lightweight dial, digital & vernier calipers are all equally inaccurate. There's no need to become proficient with a master vernier caliper if either a dial or digital satisfies your needs. The 150mm Starrett 120M (the one right above the Mitu digital in the photo) are usually found for around $75. The Mitu shown at the bottom of the photo is around $100, but the coolant proof model (rated IP67) is $139: http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INSRIT?PMAKA=328-0873&PMPXNO=25219011&PARTPG=INLMK32


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## KC2IXE (Oct 21, 2010)

I look at calipers, even a set of Master Verniers as the old joke goes - "Very Nears"

The real answer is to know your tools, and their pluses and minuses - Digital verniers are FAST, cover a wide range, and therefore have their place - Master verniers are slower, but still relatively fast, and have a wide range, and can do inside and outside - of course, then there are Mics - Hey - they only cover 1" at a time, they are slower, they are outside only, but they are a LOT less subject to the errors you see in calipers. I got lucky a few years back, and got 3,4,5,6 inch Brown and sharpe mics - for $10 each for a retired machinist who was moving - he wanted to keep is 1" and 2" , and I have more than a few 1 and 2 inch mics floating around the house and shop (I even have an old cheap pair some gave me that I use as a GASP - C Lamp just to make visiting machinist appoplectic, till they notice they are painted RED, and have the numbers removed, so they can't be used as a mic anymore


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## precisionworks (Oct 22, 2010)

> The 6" Mitu shown at the bottom of the photo is around $100, but the coolant proof model (rated IP67) is $139: http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INSRIT?P...PARTPG=INLMK32


Penn Tool Co just sent their latest sale catalog, which shows the *12" (300 mm)* Mitu Absolute (Coolant Proof) for $179.95: http://www.penntoolco.com/catalog/products/products.cfm?categoryID=7415

To call that a screaming deal is an understatement ... they sell for $288 new on Amazon, and around $150-$200 on eBay 

And no, I will not buy another digital, dial, or master vernier ... today


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## precisionworks (Oct 28, 2010)

While searching for a Starrett 123 6" today, I found a 123 E&M ...







Direct measurements are OD only, but ID can be measured by adding the thickness of the nibs to the OD reading (.250" (English) or 6.35mm (Metric). That info is from the Starrett website.

$170.00 delivered to me, plus shipping to your location. Or I'll PM the website info if you want to deal directly with the seller.


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## PEU (Oct 28, 2010)

when the metric vernier is at the bottom the ID is easier to calculate because is metric, usually you add 10mm.

I have patience, sooner or later I will get a bargain, in the meantime I have the wilson wolpert to practice.


Pablo


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## precisionworks (Apr 26, 2011)

Not too far OT for an older thread ...

I do quite a bit of ID measurement, 2" (50mm) and under, and prefer an inside mic. Even though I know better, I bought two Chinese inside mics a few years ago - they worked great until they crapped out :shakehead Since both were copies of the Starrett 700A and 700B, it seemed like a good time to buy the original.

EBay yielded a nice 700A for $81 delivered (these are $258 on Amazon).

The 700 B has been a lot tougher to find, and I've missed a few by not bidding more than they were worth. Today is my lucky day, as Grizzly Industrial (the same one that sells the cheap Chinese stuff) has an outlet store where the Starrett ID mics are half off. 

The 700B (which sells for $279 on Amazon) is $123.25. At checkout, enter coupon *11YELP$10* to get $10 off your order (must be $50 or more). The 700A is listed also, for $149.95.

Awfully close to eBay prices for brand new Starrett, who would have thought?

http://www.grizzly.com/outlet/brands.aspx


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## wquiles (Apr 26, 2011)

Thanks Barry - order placed!


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## precisionworks (Apr 26, 2011)

Everything Starrett is a pleasure to use, and I'm sure these will be no different. If the job doesn't require measuring deep inside the bore, the 700A or 700B mics are the way to go. I still cannot get over the clearance prices at Grizzly. Hardly anyone discounts Starrett ... this is the first time I've seen that.


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## RepProdigious (Apr 26, 2011)

Ive got a mitutoyo vernier for simple in and around the house use. More than accurate enough for most chores and its a simple device that does not break or has to be calibrated or whatever. 

When behind the cnc/lathe i use more precise stuff.


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## precisionworks (Apr 28, 2011)

Back on topic :devil:

Since Peu started this thread & he likes things metric, there's a very nice looking Starrett Master Vernier Height Gage on eBay ... only 100 minutes before auction ends.

http://cgi.ebay.com/STARRETT-254-M-...031?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item53e7366fcf

Listing has no details, but this appears to be a 254MZ-300 (measures up to 300mm), or possibly a 254MZ-450 (measures up to 450mm):

http://www.starrett.com/download/251_p122_125.pdf

FWIW, new retail price on the 254MZ-450 is $1997 USD


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## PEU (Apr 30, 2011)

Missed it, PM sent


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## PEU (May 3, 2011)

Well patience is a virtue they say, today I finally won an auction for a 123M (metric/metric) at a very nice price $59.90+shipping (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=170633334303) now I need to convince the seller to ship it to Argentina...


Pablo


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## wquiles (May 3, 2011)

If that does not work, see if the seller will ship to me, and then I can ship to you 

Will


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## PEU (May 3, 2011)

Gracias Will !

I just sent the invoice request and asked the seller if he can ship using express mail flat rate envelope as the box is pretty flat, let see what he replies.


Pablo


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## PEU (May 3, 2011)

That was fast, seller agreed to ship to Argentina and the total ($24) was less than the shipping cost to the US ($25.59) in any case, now I need to exercise the patience virtue as the package won't be here in less than 2 weeks... 

Again, Thanks Will for your offer.


Pablo


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## Clark (May 4, 2011)

My cousin designed the electronics, wrote the software, and got a patent, for the coolant proof calipers.
So I paid the money and got a pair so I would have that in common at the yearly reunion.
I am really glad I did, as they get used every day.


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## PEU (May 17, 2011)

Finally received my Starrett 123M-200 and now I can touch one I agree 200% about what you guys wrote about it, its heavy!

I noticed that the movements aren't as smooth as I would like, how can I make it move smoother? lube?

[edit] I noticed that there is a copper sheet on the inside so the fixing screw does not damage the bar, well the sheet was bent more than needed, a little unbending and now is smoother, I need to fiddle a little more with it, Im close to perfect now.

[edit 2] now is smooth as silk, but I wonder is copper the best material for that sheet? bushing brass would be better IMHO, but who am I to tell Starrett what to do 

In any case, it looks great, I will try to remove the engravings of the previous owner.

Thanks!!


Pablo


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## precisionworks (May 17, 2011)

> the movements aren't as smooth as I would like, how can I make it move smoother? lube?


I tend to overdo most used tooling, so take this FWIW ...

Remove both the readout scale (the longer part) and the shorter vernier adjuster. Clean out anything dark with shop towels & brake cleaner. Use a Hard Arkansas stone to deburr any sharp or rough edges that are found. Use a thin (knife blade) Hard Arkansas stone to polish any interior surfaces that look dull from rubbing.

Run your hand up & down the bar to feel for any small dings or gouges & stone these out. A grey Scotchbrite pad does a nice job on the back of the bar & closely matches the factory scratch pattern. 

The slider (longer part) needs a bit more attention ...the tiny screws at each end set the preload on the copper/brass strip, thus setting the drag to where you want it. Gently run the screws in or out to get the feel you want. The screws are probably 0-80 and tender, so don't go wild

The middle knob is the lock that locks the final reading.

If you want it to feel really nice, lap the bar & the slider together. Brownells GK-10 garnet lapping compound is good for this, 1000 grit: http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/pid=25658/Product/GARNET_LAPPING_COMPOUNDS

Check both the ID and the OD scales to make sure the OD scale reads 0.00 when the jaws are closed, and the ID scale reads whatever the thickness of the nibs is. If either scale is not correct, loosen the screws & there is a small amount of adjustment.

http://www.starrett.com/pages/74_precision_measuring.cfm


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## PEU (May 18, 2011)

precisionworks said:


> The slider (longer part) needs a bit more attention ...the tiny screws at each end set the preload on the copper/brass strip, thus setting the drag to where you want it. Gently run the screws in or out to get the feel you want. The screws are probably 0-80 and tender, so don't go wild
> 
> The middle knob is the lock that locks the final reading.


 
Indeed they are tiny, I dont have this small screwdrivers at home (were I received the caliper) so later today at the office I will be able to fiddle with them, using a clockmaker loupe over my reading glasses!, how these screw work? I found no explanation online.

Overall after an hour of inspection the caliper its in excellent condition, no dings I can feel, later in the week I will go to my partners shop and try to remove the previous owner engravings with a surface grinder.

Thanks Barry!


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## wquiles (May 18, 2011)

PEU said:


> Thanks Barry!


 
+1

I like mine a lot. I have one smaller one in the inch only, and the next larger one, the mixed inch-metric, which is the one that sees heavy duty (99% of the time) use in my shop. Except when I am measuring batteries/cells, where I use my cheap/plastic Horror Freigth "Cen-tech" to prevent a short circuit, I always use my Starrett #123 inch/metric - it is the one you see in most of the pictures I take on my projects 











Will


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## PEU (May 18, 2011)

Now that I removed the top vernier scale I don't understand your explanation as I dont see the screws you refer to, check this pic:






*[EDIT]* Made a custom tension piece using spring steel sheet:






Thanks!!


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## gadget_lover (May 18, 2011)

I would think that there should be at least one screw on the right side of that spring to allow you to adjust the pressure. The screw would push the spring down towards the sliding part. The knurled knob is for locking it in place, right?

Daniel


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## PEU (May 18, 2011)

gadget_lover said:


> The knurled knob is for locking it in place, right?


 Yes, and with less than a turn it remains pretty locked.

There are only 6 screws that I can detect: 4 for holding the vernier scales, the one you asked and the similar one that's used for the fine adjustment supplement. 

In any case the spring steel part I made provides enough preload so the movable part of the vernier does not fall, you may have noticed that there is no stop screw at the end of the caliper, so the preload is certainly needed.


Pablo


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## PEU (May 21, 2011)

With patience I removed most of the marks by hand, there was no point in filing deeper. I did not use the surface grinder as I didn't want the caliper to become magnetized. Used already used fine grit paper with a flat small file as backing for keeping flatness.







Now is ready to be inherited by my son when I retire 


Pablo


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## wquiles (May 21, 2011)

Muy buen trabajo Pablo 

(Nice job Pablo)


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## metalbutcher (May 21, 2011)

A vernier caliper is going to be my next tool acquisition. I've wanted one for some time now. I'm partial to the Mitutoyo so I'll be keeping my eye open on ebay for a good deal. 

Ed


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## precisionworks (May 21, 2011)

That's impressive, Pablo. Most etching marks run as much as .010" deep (.25mm). +1 on a great job


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## PEU (May 21, 2011)

Thank you guys, without your recommendation I would be lost in the sea of China 

This one is only 40 minutes away, A mitutoyo 160 its 12 inches if you check the pictures , but the description implies its metric, maybe thats the cause of the low price, a good candidate for a snipe 

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=150606205402

If the item ends up being mm I will consider buying it 


Pablo


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## precisionworks (May 21, 2011)

Don't you love it when the seller is clueless 

Mitu makes two series of Master Vernier Calipers, the "standard" 160, and the heavy duty (long jaw) 534. Funny thing is that the instruction manual applies to both. The photo below is snipped and enlarged from the eBay listing:






The caliper in the listing is a 160-xxx, which is called an inch/metric model. IF he's correct that the measuring range is 60cm, then the caliper is a 160-103. IF the range is 30cm, it's a 160-125.

Whichever it is, one scale is graduated in .001" and the other scale reads 0.02mm 

Did you win it?


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## PEU (May 22, 2011)

Nope because I also zoomed like you did and noticed that both scales were in inches, and the bar only graduations were in inches too, it was listed as 60cm but pictures show its actually 12in or about 30cm






Unless the seller posted the wrong pictures, in that case if it was really a 60cm the sold price was a steal.


Pablo


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## jtr1962 (May 27, 2011)

Very interesting reading here. I've been using a 6" digital caliper from DX for a while and it's good enough for my purposes (basically matching thermoelectrics within 0.001" when mounting them in the same heatsink assembly). I usually can obtain repeatability within the 0.0005" resolution of the device. For my purposes, this is good enough. Yesterday I bought a 12" digital on eBay for larger measurements.

Question-should I bother buying a set of gage blocks? A decent set of grade 2 can be had on eBay for under $70. I have no idea right now how accurate my caliper is, only that it has good repeatability.

I'm thinking of getting a digital mic also, although I'll admit at this point I'm not sure there's anything I do requiring that kind of precision. It just seems like a cool thing to have.

Anyone else hear of digital calipers reading to 0.001mm? I read about them. Fascinating that you can make a device with a 6" range that precise. Sort of the best of both worlds if they work as claimed. I'm not planning on buying one, but wondering if anyone here has any experience with them.


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## precisionworks (May 27, 2011)

To calibrate any instrument requires a standard that is at least 10X more accurate than the item being calibrated. The minimum accuracy needs to be Inspection Grade A, and those are expensive. Probably cheaper to send them to a Cal Lab.


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## jtr1962 (May 27, 2011)

The grade 2 blocks I'm looking at are +4 millionths, -2 millionths. That's way less than 1/10th the 0.0005" resolution of my calipers.


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## KC2IXE (May 27, 2011)

there ARE some exceptions to this, but require wavers

Back when, I worked for an electronics company that made THE most accurate syncro/resolver standard in the world - yes, out unit was used by the NBS - Now, how do you callibrate THAT - We had TWO - they were custom made, and basically were ONLY used when calibrating the units that were 'one digit' up

In this case, we had to go back to 1st principals of "what does a syncro/resolver standard actually do" (put out voltage ratio based upon sine waves and a phase angle), and had to do it by "OK, voltage from terminal A to Ref is P, from B is Q, from C is R - the theoretical voltages should be xyz, so we are off by N" and go through all the settings necessary to prove that it was right (the way we designed it, you had to do 36 10 deg increments, and 10 for each decimal place after that) Took a LONG time to pre tune the unit when making it, get it RIGHT, then pot the whole thing, and then do the final test - like a week. The GOOD news was despite us having to do that job every 5 years, we really KNEW it wouldn't go bad, unless it became totally inoperable - we did it with toridal core transformers, nothing to drift


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## KC2IXE (May 27, 2011)

jtr1962 said:


> The grade 2 blocks I'm looking at are +4 millionths, -2 millionths. That's way less than 1/10th the 0.0005" resolution of my calipers.



The problem with those gauge blocks is - do they come with a valid, traceable certificate of calibration (assuming you need tracing)

Then there is the fun - for instance, you are really going to want to check different stacks, but in such a way that you cycle through the entire vernier scale, so each div gets checked

BTW - My daughter is going to our High School - She'll be 'Class of 2015'


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## precisionworks (May 27, 2011)

What you described are Class 1 (AA Grade) blocks. Any reputable manufacturer charges $5000-$7000 for a set in this grade.

For $60-$70, it's almost impossible to find a Grade B set with NIST Cert. Without a cert, they are worth nothing...


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## jtr1962 (May 28, 2011)

KC2IXE said:


> there ARE some exceptions to this, but require wavers
> 
> Back when, I worked for an electronics company that made THE most accurate syncro/resolver standard in the world - yes, out unit was used by the NBS - Now, how do you callibrate THAT - We had TWO - they were custom made, and basically were ONLY used when calibrating the units that were 'one digit' up
> 
> In this case, we had to go back to 1st principals of "what does a syncro/resolver standard actually do" (put out voltage ratio based upon sine waves and a phase angle), and had to do it by "OK, voltage from terminal A to Ref is P, from B is Q, from C is R - the theoretical voltages should be xyz, so we are off by N" and go through all the settings necessary to prove that it was right (the way we designed it, you had to do 36 10 deg increments, and 10 for each decimal place after that) Took a LONG time to pre tune the unit when making it, get it RIGHT, then pot the whole thing, and then do the final test - like a week. The GOOD news was despite us having to do that job every 5 years, we really KNEW it wouldn't go bad, unless it became totally inoperable - we did it with toridal core transformers, nothing to drift


Ah yes, the old problem of figuring out if a standard is really as accurate as claimed without having a more accurate reference. Kind of reminds me of something I did last month. I "upgraded" a frequency counter I had built a while back with an ovenized quartz oscillator. Prior to that it had just used a standard crystal oscillator, and I really couldn't count on it holding anything better than 10 ppm. The OCXO is stable to about 1 part in 10-9, more than enough for what I need, 1000 times better than what I was using, but was it accurate? No way of knowing without a more accurate, stable reference. Fortunately, I purchased a surplus rubidium frequency standard off eBay for exactly the purpose of calibrating lesser devices like OCXOs _but_ once again I was faced with the same question-_is my rubidium standard accurate_, at least to the degree I need it to be (say 1 part in 10-10)? Well, once it "locks", as indicated by one of the output pins going low, it's supposed to be no worse than 5x10-8, and it approaches rated accuracy as it warms up over the next hour or so. But still, no direct way to verify accuracy since I don't have access to something like a primary cesium standard. Some have used a GPS or WWVB 1 pulse per second signal but again, I don't have such a setup. Well, I did some backwards reasoning. The device was factory calibrated to 5x10-11. Aging rate was supposed to be no more than 10-11 per month. Moreover, the unit was less than a decade old, and the lamp voltage was still pretty good (7.42 volts IIRC), so in all likelihood the unit aged way less than the maximum spec (which is quite conservative from my understanding). I came up with a high probability the unit was within 10-10 of nomimal, so plenty good for my uses. Digging around the Internet, most of the people who bothered to verify the accuracy of their surplus standards came up with numbers no worse the 10-10, and frequently within a few parts in 10-11. So plenty good for my uses.



> The problem with those gauge blocks is - do they come with a valid, traceable certificate of calibration (assuming you need tracing)
> 
> Then there is the fun - for instance, you are really going to want to check different stacks, but in such a way that you cycle through the entire vernier scale, so each div gets checked


This is all just for my own sanity, to see how much, if any, my calipers are off. No need for NIST certification for anything I do, or else I would just send the calipers to a lab as Barry suggested. Even if those blocks are off by ten times as much, it's still less than 1/10th the resolution of my caliper. And so far, I haven't had need to be closer than 0.01" to absolute in anything I do, so a 0.001" accurate caliper is plenty good for my needs.



> BTW - My daughter is going to our High School - She'll be 'Class of 2015'


That's great news, and I hope she finds the school as good as we both did! Please give her my congratulations, and also best wishes for her future studies.


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## jtr1962 (May 28, 2011)

precisionworks said:


> What you described are Class 1 (AA Grade) blocks. Any reputable manufacturer charges $5000-$7000 for a set in this grade.
> 
> For $60-$70, it's almost impossible to find a Grade B set with NIST Cert. Without a cert, they are worth nothing...


I've seen some brand new grade B block sets with certs on eBay going for about $70 (I can even get Class 2 with a cert for under $300) but as just mentioned in my last post, no need for NIST certification for anything I'm currently doing. Even if the blocks I'm looking at are ten times worse than claimed, that's still under 1/10th the resolution of my caliper. I probably wouldn't trust these blocks to accurately calibrate a mic, but for a caliper, I'm just not seeing why they wouldn't be good enough, even without a cert.

BTW, on page 8 of this document are the tolerances for different classes of blocks (and the document is interesting reading, at least to someone fairly new to all this like myself). Class 2, as in the auction I linked to, is more or less equivalent to A Grade under the old system, not AA Grade, as stated here. Yes, AA and above is where the prices seem to go through the roof, but I just don't need that kind of precision (or NIST traceability).


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## will (May 28, 2011)

One advantage of having a block of a 'Known' dimension is to check your own feel for using different measuring tools. For example, using a caliper with a very forceful touch will give a result that is actually smaller than the actual dimension. Using a too loose touch will give a larger measurement. You also have to make sure you are 'square' on the part being measured. Sometimes you have to rock the tool back and forth to get it square on the part. 

You can generally use a hardened dowel pin to check your feel on round objects. Dowels are usually ground to a dimension that is accurate to less than .001 inch.( from what I remember the tolerance is something like .0001 inch, but I am not 100% sure. ) Certainly not the same as a certified block, but may be useful for most of us here.


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## precisionworks (May 28, 2011)

Most of the eBay Chinese/Pakistani /etc. blocks that bear no manufacturer's name are not worth the cost of shipping. The reason is that the no name factories have no master reference standard for calibration. The "cert" that accompanies those blocks is NOT an NIST traceable cert, but rather a piece of photocopied paper from a non existent "authority ".

You'd be better served by purchasing one or two Starrett or Mitu blocks of known accuracy, traceable to a standards agency that is accountable. In the USA, that's NIST.


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## precisionworks (May 28, 2011)

Double


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## jtr1962 (May 28, 2011)

Does this set seem OK? It has a certificate with serial numbers and tolerances for each block, not a generic "certificate of accuracy" that I see with some sets. Not much more money than the uncertified set I was looking at, plus it's 81 piece instead of 36 piece. The downside is it's only grade B (still good enough for my purposes), but I'm guessing by what you're saying that the supposed Grade 2 blocks I was looking at before might not even meet grade B standards.


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## precisionworks (May 28, 2011)

That is not a bad set. All the blocks that are 1 inch and under are guaranteed to 50 millionths. The listing does not state the accuracy of blocks that are over 1 inch, Meaning that the larger blocks probably do not meet the accuracy specification.

Unless you need to build a stack of gage blocks for setting a jig or fixture, or to set a height gage, a few individual blocks are the best bet.

The 81 piece Starrett set is $314 at MSC in Grade B. Those you can trust


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## jtr1962 (May 28, 2011)

precisionworks said:


> Unless you need to build a stack of gage blocks for setting a jig or fixture, or to set a height gage, a few individual blocks are the best bet.


I might want to build a stack to check my calipers for accuracy on a critical dimension. Yeah, I looked at individual blocks. Not much on eBay, and elsewhere it seems a few blocks cost as much as a set. I'll probably just order the set I linked to for now. If I need higher accuracy later (say to calibrate a mic, assuming I purchase one down the road), I can always order an individual AA block or two.

Yeah, I'm sure the Starrett set is better, but I'm on a pretty tight budget here.  If money were no object, I'd get a set of AAA ceramic blocks. 

Thanks for the help! With so many options out there, it's confusing for a novice like me to decide what's decent and what isn't.

I'll report back when the blocks arrive, and also how my el cheapo DX caliper fares. As I said earlier, so far nothing I've done even requires 0.01" absolute accuracy, so I should be good. To give you some idea of what I do, my drill press, bench grinder, and Dremel are what I use for metalworking. Obviously not precision instruments.  I'm really in awe at you guys who make parts to the ten thousanths. I don't even have tools capable of that kind of precision.

I'm actually kind of proud of this GPS bracket I made out of a solid chunk of aluminum after the plastic one broke:







Sure, it's not pretty, but keep in mind that I used only my dremel, drill press, vise, and calipers. It's a nice tight fit in the bike mount which is all I care about. And it won't break next time I hit a pothole.


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## precisionworks (May 28, 2011)

Very nice job on the gps bracket 

Gage blocks are a peculiar type of measuring tool. Everytime 2 or more blocks are wrung together, There is some measurable amount of wear. Probably in the neighborhood of 1/50th of one millionth of an inch. After 50 wringings, a block is one millionths smaller than it was to start with. For that reason alone used blocks are always a gamble.


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## jtr1962 (May 29, 2011)

gadget_lover said:


> From the HF web site: http://www.harborfreight.com/4-inch-digital-caliper-47256.html
> 
> # Resolution: 0.0005" (0.01mm)
> # Accurate to ± 0.001" (0.03mm)
> ...


I found some interesting reading on how these low cost calipers work. Although they only display to the nearest 0.0005" or 0.01mm, internally they calculate the measurement to 20,480 positions per inch. That equates to an internal resolution roughly ten times the smallest displayed resolution if using inches, or eight times if using mm. And this makes sense. Many digital instruments internally calculate the value to roughly an order of magnitude more than the displayed value in order to keep quantization error low, and insure reliable repeatability.

Going by the example you gave, the displayed value might still be more than 0.001" more or less than the actual value even though the accuracy is as claimed (i.e. within 0.001"). With digital instruments, the maximum the reading can be off is the accuracy _plus or minus one count_ before any rounding. Suppose the true measurement is .10125". Since the device internally measures to the nearest 0.00005", the caliper will think this is anywhere from 0.10020" to 0.10230" (i.e. +- 0.001" plus 0.00005"). Rounding off to the nearest 0.0005", you could end up with anything from 0.1000 to 0.1025. Worst case you're reading 0.00125" off the true value but are still within the 0.001" accuracy spec. Note however that this greater discrepancy from the true reading than indicated by the accuracy spec is simply an artifact of the instrument rounding to the nearest 0.0005". This adds a maximum discrepancy of 0.00025", or half the rounding increment. If the instrument displayed to the same value it used internally, the reading would be at most 0.00105" off. Obviously this isn't done because the physical design of the caliper precludes making measurements with 0.00005" repeatability. Quantizing internally to 0.00005" also ensures repeatability to 0.0005", whereas quantizing to 0.0005" wouldn't (it would only give 0.001" repeatability).


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## jtr1962 (May 29, 2011)

precisionworks said:


> Very nice job on the gps bracket


Thanks! It took a good 4 hours to make, mostly because I lacked the proper tools.



> Gage blocks are a peculiar type of measuring tool. Everytime 2 or more blocks are wrung together, There is some measurable amount of wear. Probably in the neighborhood of 1/50th of one millionth of an inch. After 50 wringings, a block is one millionths smaller than it was to start with. For that reason alone used blocks are always a gamble.


Well, that set I linked to is new. I'll have to remember not to wring them too many times, although I can certainly live with a 1 millionth of an inch error. That's only a fraction of a visible light wavelength.


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## KC2IXE (May 30, 2011)

Nice job on that GPS mount

Now, remember that you know someone with a lathe and mill who lives what, a mile from you....

Charlie


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## etard (May 30, 2011)

Ok, now I want a master vernier caliper! I saw these:

http://cgi.ebay.com/Starrett-Master...aultDomain_0&hash=item20b6448f81#ht_500wt_922

One has a sticker on it, saying, "do not use" I couldn't blow it up, but why would it say that? Does anybody recognize the sticker as some sort of inspection standard?

These are going for $125, and there are a few that can be had as low as $80 and as high as $500. Why the wide gap here?

Thanks guys, I have enjoyed this thread, I also use the HF calipers and have seen very little variations in measurements between 5 or 6 HF cheapos, a Mitu, and even a Starret digital height gauge. But, I've never worked in the industry, where the instrument is used dozens of times a day, that would make all the difference I'm sure.


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## PEU (May 30, 2011)

Its a one way ride, now I do not trust my digital caliper 

I saw many spotless 123s go for less than that in the many months I waited for my unit in mm, what you can do is name your price and start sniping until you succeed. If the engravings aren't very deep, you can remove them as I did


Pablo


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## precisionworks (May 30, 2011)

A DNU (do not use) sticker is placed right over an expired calibration sticker. They are often bright red, while the "normal" cal sticker is black on white. Sometimes an out of cal instrument gets put into the box to be sent to the cal lab, and then someone needs that instrument (usually on 2nd or 3rd shift, when no one is around to open the instrument bin). 

Get caught using one of those and it's a write up on the first offense, if luck is smiling upon you


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## precisionworks (May 30, 2011)

> many spotless 123's go for less than that in the many months I waited for my unit


+1

No dial, no digits, no flashing lights, no Gee Whiz ... who would want one of those dinosaurs? The answer, of course, is anyone who needs the capabilities that only a Starrett 123 (or the Mitu equivalent) can bring to the table. $75-$100 will often buy a pristine one if you aren't in a rush. 

Sold for $100 and really clean: http://cgi.ebay.com/STARRETT-12-MAS...241?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3f0a1231f1

Nice looking for $35: http://cgi.ebay.com/Starrett-Calipe...210?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2310d28042

How about a 36" version for $99: http://cgi.ebay.com/Starrett-38-Hei...529?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3367cc93d1


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## PEU (May 30, 2011)

Nice mitu 160 24" for $75+Shipping http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=250828299633


Pablo


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## precisionworks (May 30, 2011)

I have the identical caliper in 18". It is very sturdy & comparable in quality to Starrett. The 18" and above have longer jaws that allow reaching farther into a recess to check a bore.


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## metalbutcher (May 31, 2011)

What do you guys think of this 12" Mitu? Seems like a decent price.

http://cgi.ebay.com/130524849960?ru...49960&_sacat=See-All-Categories&_fvi=1&_rdc=1

Thanks,
Ed


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## precisionworks (May 31, 2011)

That's a sweet looking Mitu 160. Because there is no "Starrett" in the listing, it may go for not much more than the starting bid. Easily worth $75.


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## PEU (May 31, 2011)

another one but 6 days auction: http://cgi.ebay.com/Mitutoyo-long-jaw-caliper-24-/320707202893

None in mm, the only thing I envy about inches is the availability of cheap used tools, otherwise: go metric! 


Pablo


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## precisionworks (May 31, 2011)

> the only thing I envy about inches is the availability of cheap used tools


There has to be the European equal to Starrett. Not sure who that is, but there must be at least one maker of best quality precision tools.

Everyone knows about the quality of the Kurt vises, but few people have heard of Eron, a Japanese company that's been casting iron since 1560. Nabeya Co., Ld of Gifu, Japan owns the Eron name. http://www.nabeya.co.jp/com_E/index.html

I bought two sets of their thick parallels on eBay, maybe $20 per set, easily equal to Starrett or Brown & Sharpe that cost $200. Same with a quick acting drill press vise, dead copy of the Henirich for 10% of what Heinrich costs. Angle plates, V-blocks, etc. Must have 100# of Eron iron that probably cost $100.

Someone in Europe makes (or has made) a nice Master Vernier Caliper. The Swiss Etalon brand, purchased by B&S, might be one to search for. Moore & Wright (from the UK) is one Starrett equal. Steinmeyer (German) made very nice mics, not sure about calipers. Also Tesa (Swiss). 

Also, you can use a thousandth reading Master Vernier as a comparator gage with your metric reading mic (for ID and bore measurements). Measure the ID of the part with the Starrett or Mitu Master Vernier, lock the slides, and read with your mic.


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## metalbutcher (Jun 1, 2011)

precisionworks said:


> That's a sweet looking Mitu 160. Because there is no "Starrett" in the listing, it may go for not much more than the starting bid. Easily worth $75.


 
I like the fact the it's only 12". I don't need one longer than that. I sent the seller an email asking if they accept money orders as payment since I don't have a PayPal account.

Ed


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## PEU (Jun 29, 2011)

Nice 123M http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=270774039277

Offered the guy $60 and he accepted but insisted on shipping via flat rate box at $45 told him that I want a flat rate envelope $25, as I received my previous unit this way, but stubbornly he refused, insisted 3 times with no luck. Its not the $20 difference, a flat rate envelope clears customs automatically here, a box I need to spend at least 3 hours at customs plus customs duties...


Pablo


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## precisionworks (Jun 29, 2011)

> insisted on shipping via flat rate box at $45


I sell quite a few items on eBay, and would never use an envelope for anything larger than perhaps a package of carbide inserts. Damage is always the fault of the seller who does the packaging, as it should be, and shipping problems cause more negative feedback than any other category. Just like the seller of the metric mic, I would ship only in a box.


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## PEU (Jun 29, 2011)

if you check the item photo it includes the wooden box and an extra cover over the wooden box, even if a fat ******* like myself (300lbs/6.2') steps over the envelope, the caliper inside the box would remain intact, I tried to explain this and seller declined, but hey! its a free world and a free market, another one will appear, its just a matter of time... 


Pablo


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## precisionworks (Jun 30, 2011)

> includes the wooden box and an extra cover over the wooden box



Argentina certainly must have a better delivery system than the USA. Here, the letters USPS (US Postal Service) actually mean _U S Parcel Shredders_ :shakehead

Wooden box? Not a problem, *if *it stays inside the envelope (questionable) it will look like a wooden hulled ship that ran aground. Even then, the box will be more useful than the caliper, which most likely will fall out of the envelope, get run over by a truck, thrown into the garbage, retrieved from said garbage, thrown back into the envelope (which is then patched up with a couple of rolls of shipping tape), and safely delivered to you.

The above description is not a joke, although it happens no more than 10%-15% of the time. I buy mostly on eBay, and USPS is the shipper normally used. They are the only shipper that will either destroy an anvil, or lose it entirely, then find it a year later broken into two pieces which they'll try to deliver.



> I tried to explain this and seller declined


Most sellers value their eBay reputation, and want to keep their feedback number at 100% or close to that. Shipping anything in an envelope, even a piece of paper, is an invitation for disaster - especially for an international shipment. Think this is all made up? Watch these videos:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-moDJi7Qci8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xKUyURcCXpQ

Or this envelope, showing fresh tire marks where it was run over by the truck:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SZ4BoYZF1EE&feature=related


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## precisionworks (Jun 30, 2011)

> includes the wooden box and an extra cover over the wooden box



Argentina certainly must have a better delivery system than the USA. Here, the letters USPS (US Postal Service) actually mean _U S Parcel Shredders_ :shakehead

Wooden box? Not a problem, *if *it stays inside the envelope (questionable) it will look like a wooden hulled ship that ran aground. Even then, the box will be more useful than the caliper, which most likely will fall out of the envelope, get run over by a truck, thrown into the garbage, retrieved from said garbage, thrown back into the envelope (which is then patched up with a couple of rolls of shipping tape), and safely delivered to you.

The above description is not a joke, although it happens no more than 10%-15% of the time. I buy mostly on eBay, and USPS is the shipper normally used. They are the only shipper that will either destroy an anvil, or lose it entirely, then find it a year later broken into two pieces which they'll try to deliver.



> I tried to explain this and seller declined


Most sellers value their eBay reputation, and want to keep their feedback number at 100% or close to that. Shipping anything in an envelope, even a piece of paper, is an invitation for disaster - especially for an international shipment. Think this is all made up? Watch these videos:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-moDJi7Qci8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xKUyURcCXpQ

Or this envelope, showing fresh tire marks where it was run over by the truck:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SZ4BoYZF1EE&feature=related


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## Davo J (Jul 1, 2011)

He sounds like an honest seller and understands the postal system, does he have anything else your interested in buying off him to ship with it? That way it will offset the postage price over a few items. I would not ship this item in an envelope even with in Australia or the US. Some sellers will even devaluate the price on the customs form so you don't pay as much in duties.

I buy a lot of gear from ebay US and have it sent to Australia in flat rate boxes. It arrives safe and has to be signed for which protects both the seller and the buyer.

Dave


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## PEU (Jul 6, 2011)

I never said the seller was dishonest!

In any case I purchased the caliper using a friends account for $60, she will bring the caliper from the states in october, so no customs, no problems, just patience for 3 months 


Pablo


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## precisionworks (Jul 6, 2011)

> she will bring the caliper from the states in october, so no customs, no problems


Not until that huge chunk of metal sets off every detector in the airport :nana:


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## darkzero (Jul 6, 2011)

PEU said:


> In any case I purchased the caliper using a friends account for $60, she will bring the caliper from the states in october, so no customs, no problems, just patience for 3 months
> 
> 
> Pablo


 
Pablo, if you never need anything fowarded, I'll be happy to help again. I used to do it all the time for my long lost CPF friend in Belgium & I still do it on a regular basis for my buddy in Norway.

Just as long as it's not an 8" chuck or an indexer, etc, it's just might not make it there & find a new home in my garage. 

Some of my good friends who I used to work for at the race shop are Argentinian. All ask I is is that you send me some empanadas, milanesa, or morcilla in return! J/k of course but serious about the forwarding.

:wave:


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## PEU (Jul 6, 2011)

Thanks Will! You sure know whats good here 

if some of them come here let me know a few days in advance so they can bring some small and non electronic stuff (custom agents look mostly for electronics at the airport) and you will receive a very nice bottle of our world class Malbec wines when they return, better than milanesas or morcillas that would be confiscated at their return to USA 



> Not until that huge chunk of metal sets off every detector in the airport


Already told her not to carry it onboard. 
Last december I asked a friend if he was willing to bring some carbide endmills for a colleague here, he would be rewarded $350 for the favor. He was carrying too much weight so he decided to put some of the heavier (and more expensive) endmills in his pocket, long story short, they didn't pass pre-board inspection and ended in the scissors/knifes bin... $150 dollars to the dumpster... his reward was only $200...


Pablo


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## precisionworks (Jul 23, 2011)

While doing my daily eBay searches, one item popped up worthy of mention. It's a Mitu Master Vernier caliper, model 160-124 (12", .001" graduations). About $325-$350 online, but Travers has three available at just $99.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=220810710805&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT

Travers is usually sky high on everything, but their sale prices are really cheap.


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## PEU (Jul 23, 2011)

nice unit & nice price, yesterday I had in my hands a mitutoyo 160 x 500mm, very nice chunk of metal!!  But now that I saw the starrett style of verniers I don't want to go back to the traditional style. 600mm starretts appear every now and them at nice prices, and Im sure I do NOT need one 


Pablo


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## metalbutcher (Jul 23, 2011)

Barry,

Thank you very much for the heads up on the Mitu vernier caliper. Now there are only two left. :wave:

Ed


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## metalbutcher (Jul 25, 2011)

precisionworks said:


> While doing my daily eBay searches, one item popped up worthy of mention. It's a Mitu Master Vernier caliper, model 160-124 (12", .001" graduations). About $325-$350 online, but Travers has three available at just $99.
> 
> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=220810710805&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT
> 
> Travers is usually sky high on everything, but their sale prices are really cheap.



They've gone up to $199 now so I'm glad I didn't hesitate and bought one right away.

Ed


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## precisionworks (Jul 26, 2011)

I saw that price this morning. At Travers, it's all over when the fat lady sings


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## metalbutcher (Jul 28, 2011)

I got my Mitu vernier caliper from Travers today. Definitely worth the $113. :thumbsup:

Ed


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## precisionworks (Jul 29, 2011)

I used the exact same caliper ( 18 inch model) to reach the final bore size on the d r o tail stock adapter. The master vernier caliper is often paired up with the Starrett 12 inch dial caliper. The dial caliper ( or digital caliper if you have 1 with long jaws) gives a quick reading. The last .010" is measured with the master vernier.

Anyone willing to invest time to learn how to use this instrument will be rewarded with work that is highly accurate.


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## wquiles (Jul 29, 2011)

precisionworks said:


> Anyone willing to invest time to learn how to use this instrument will be rewarded with work that is highly accurate.


 
+1

The "only" type of caliper that I use


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## metalbutcher (Jul 29, 2011)

When I went to electronics school they didn't give us calculators. We were given slide rules and once you got the hang of them, they were fast to use. 

Ed


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## PEU (Aug 8, 2011)

My name is Pablo and I'm addicted to 123's  sniped another bargain: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=400233200493


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## wquiles (Aug 8, 2011)

My name is William, and I am a recovering 123 addict - I only own 3 of them at the moment


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## precisionworks (Aug 8, 2011)

$41 Pablo ... that's grand theft caliper


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## PEU (Sep 5, 2011)

Received it, luckily customs charged me nothing 

It has some minor pitting on the inches scale, no problem for me as I will use only the mm scale, also some brown blotches, they don't appear to be oxide, tried some wd40 and similar oils and they remain there, tried also thinner no luck either












Pablo


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## rwolff (Nov 5, 2011)

For anyone considering digital calipers, I've run into a few issues with digital measuring equipment (most often with genuine Hu Flung Dung, the sort you'd find at HF).

- Some digital encoders are speed-sensitive. I've encountered a digital height gauge that, when run up from zero to 5 or 6 inches quickly, then back down slowly, would show a negative height, as if it had skipped counts on the run-up (zero reading was from a dial indicator, and the setup was on a surface plate, so my zero was repeatable).

- With wear/dirt/etc, an encoder can start skipping counts. When I worked in a machine shop, I'd do a "sanity check" on the DRO whenever I set up on a milling machine. I'd turn the X and Y (individually) handles until the collar was reading zero, zero the appropriate axis on the DRO, then turn the handle 30 times, stopping with the collar reading zero again. On occasion, I'd catch (and report) one that was out by over 100 thousandths, and go to another mill. Saved me from making scrap.

Digital measuring equipment may be precise, but that doesn't guarantee that it's accurate.


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