# You get what you pay for...or DO you?



## Noctis (Mar 26, 2010)

First off, I want to say that I am guilty as charged for looking at a flashlight for the purposes of non-lethal self-defense(and what a joke THAT was). I've purchased a Streamlight TL-2 LED for $75 for that reason. But I've since been convinced that the only real "tactical" advantage I can get from it would be another 2 seconds of opportunity to get in a good slice with my Emerson CQC Super 7 wave. Which was what I wanted to avoid because of potential legal repercussions, though I obviously confused a flashlight for pepper spray.

On the bright side, I'll have a fairly bright flashlight for the next time an earthquake knocks out the power here.

My coworker insisted that his Surefire is at least twice as bright(I'm thinking E2DL). To me, that was kind of like having a guy pull his pants down in front of me, and what I saw made me insanely jealous. Though when I mentioned the price tag which deterred me from buying it in the first place he said, "you get what you pay for".

But do you really?

It seems to me that Surefire is like the Sony of flashlights. You're paying more for the name than anything else.

Comparing the Surefire L5 LunaMax to my TL-2, the power output is less, the size is bigger, it weighs more, the runtime is less, they're both LED, and they both use CR 123a batteries.

From a practical viewpoint, it simply seems like the TL-2 gives me MUCH more bang for my buck.

However, I suppose I DO somewhat believe in the "you get what you pay for" policy, as I've been reluctant to buy an EagleTac for more lumens at a lower price mostly because I was afraid I would end up with a cheap "Made in China" piece of junk that would break the next time I bumped it a little too hard.

Still, what exactly would I be paying Surefire for? I'm personally tempted to buy an E2DL(at $150 on eBay), for no other reason than because it's "better" than what I have <_<

But if I could get more quality for less, I'd probably go for it. In my mind, I suppose quality=more lumens. I was really tempted by that Wicked Lasers Torch flashlight with over 4,000 lumens. Though the price is certainly up there at over $300, with a runtime of 15 minutes, and little in the ways of pocket carrying.


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## march.brown (Mar 27, 2010)

I will stick with my three Solarforces ... Most expensive including postage to the UK was £18-36 (L2 five mode) , cheapest was £14-66 (L2i single mode) ... I use 18650s in all of them ... Quality is great on all three torches ... I'm not certain how many Lumens are pushed out , but a fully charged 18650 lasts about two and a half hours on high ... They are still useable as EDC particularly with the plain bezel fitted ... The L2 is about 5.2" long plus the button (0.2") and fits in a jacket pocket ... Good thing is that you can easily put another drop-in into the torch and there are loads of them to choose from.

Solarforce quality is way above what you expect for an almost budget torch , so to me , I can't see any need to spend more except perhaps for a better drop-in ... There is a nice Solarforce three mode (high , medium and low) drop-in for about £9-00.

My normal EDC is an iTP A2 which at £17-04 is another great torch at a sensible price and is very small even for a single AA cell torch ... My most expensive torch is in the post to me from Shiningbeam and is the stainless A2 at £25-64.

Don't waste your money on "Male Jewelry" torches when these others are available at a sensible price.
.


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## kyamei (Mar 27, 2010)

I believe that you do indeed get what you pay for (generally speaking), but that also comes with diminishing returns. Once you get to a certain point you have high quality vs. higher quality, with the difference between the two being quite minute. So the question is, is that difference worth the price to YOU?


I own a couple of EagleTac lights and while I own zero Surefires, I have handled a few. I won't deny that the Surefires did seem a bit higher quality than the EagleTacs, but I did not feel the quality difference was worth the price difference. If I manage to break one of my EagleTacs (or any "high-end", non-DX Chinese made light) I'm seriously doing something wrong.


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## Squidboy (Mar 27, 2010)

I must agree with the Welshman. I have one Surefire and if I'd had to pay full wack for it then it would have stayed on the shelf.

Yes, good workmanship very reliable etc etc. But with things like Dereelight, Fenix, 4Seven, Eagletac & Jetbeam producing flashlights that easy sit on a par, why shell out silly money for the Surefire.

In the uk Surefire E1B Backup £150 - $223

try a Jetbeam Jet-III Pro ST R2 instead for £64 - $95

In my opinion of the two above the Jetbeam wins (on output and run time too)


However being Scottish I am genetically disposed to get value for money


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## march.brown (Mar 27, 2010)

Squidboy said:


> I must agree with the Welshman. I have one Surefire and if I'd had to pay full wack for it then it would have stayed on the shelf.
> 
> Yes, good workmanship very reliable etc etc. But with things like Dereelight, Fenix, 4Seven, Eagletac & Jetbeam producing flashlights that easy sit on a par, why shell out silly money for the Surefire.
> 
> ...


 
Are you 100% Scottish ???

That Jetbeam is really expensive for a true Scot or even for a Yorkshireman ! ... It was either a gift or you won the National Lottery ! ... Only Joking.

I am part Scot (Father was) , part Irish and part English too , and living in Wales now with another Welsh Wife ... I don't waste money on torches when I can invest it wisely on the "water of life" ... Purely medicinal reasons of course.

The title "You get what you pay for .... or DO you" could really apply to Wives ! ... I suppose the "Law of Diminishing Returns" really comes true when I look at my diminished assets !

p.s. First Wife was English (100%) ... I suppose that explains everything.
.


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## Ian2381 (Mar 27, 2010)

I think that Surefire is indeed the best brand in terms of quality and you indeed will get what you pay for. But in actual usage, some other brands are just enough to serve it's purpose and even more. 
3 quality lights is better than 1 surefire for me at the same price.


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## abarth_1200 (Mar 27, 2010)

Isnt part of buying a surefire is the fact that if anything does happen to go wrong with it surefire will replace it, plus years of resaerch and development into a single model, why do you think one model stays around so long, look at fenix why do they have to constantly change the designs.


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## fishx65 (Mar 27, 2010)

Reading reviews and doing research on this website is the best way to get a lot of bang-for-the buck when it comes to flashlights. You would be surprised what $30.00 or less can get you!


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## the.Mtn.Man (Mar 27, 2010)

Noctis said:


> It seems to me that Surefire is like the Sony of flashlights. You're paying more for the name than anything else.


It's true that "most expensive" does not necessarily mean "best" because "best" is a relative term. For me, the "best" flashlight is one that's relatively inexpensive ($75 is about my threshold), small, light weight, uses a single AA battery, reasonably durable (it doesn't need to be able to pound nails into a 2x4, simply survive common everyday use and the occasional drop), and has multiple modes, so for my purposes, Surefire isn't the best.


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## strinq (Mar 27, 2010)

kyamei said:


> I believe that you do indeed get what you pay for (generally speaking), but that also comes with diminishing returns. Once you get to a certain point you have high quality vs. higher quality, with the difference between the two being quite minute. So the question is, is that difference worth the price to YOU?



+1


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## the.Mtn.Man (Mar 27, 2010)

abarth_1200 said:


> look at fenix why do they have to constantly change the designs.


Different market. Their flashlights are aimed at enthusiasts and collectors who buy several flashlights a year as opposed to Surefire that appeals primarily to law enforcement or search and rescue professionals who will buy one flashlight and stick with it. Part of the reason Surefire is so expensive is not simply because of the quality but because they move less inventory than a company like Nitecore or Fenix.


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## Igor Porto (Mar 27, 2010)

I don't get it either. Surefire recently announced their new line of flashlights... and when you take a look at them, they're still putting out 150 lumens for 2 hours on 2xCR123. Nothing brighter or more efficient. The competition is way beyond them, always striving for more efficient and brighter flashlights, year after year after year.

They announced a ultramegablastingbright 400 lumens QUAD die flashlight, making it look like it's the newest technology available, but they're not.
When I look at Surefire, it remembers me of [email protected], using outdated technology (luxeons and rebels) and printing their catalogs like they discovered the fire: our NEW quad dies with ultimate technology.
I don't get it. And I don't want flames, this is just my opinion.


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## waddup (Mar 27, 2010)

a flashlight is a tube of metal, with a light engine in one and and a switch the other end, and a battery.

as long as the power from the battery can get to the L.E. there will be light.

a lumen is a lumen weather you pay big or small for it.

cheap and expensive lights fail. 

some arrive doa from the factory.

a 2010 porsche and a 1971 vw beetle will both get you there @ 70 mph.

maybe.


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## LedTed (Mar 27, 2010)

Well ...

I wanted a cheap single AA LED flashlight to use at work. I got a $13.00 UltraFire from a place with the initials of DX. Long story short, the cheap light didn't work; in operation or for my purposes.

I liked the way the UltraFire fit in my pocket. So, I updated to a $30.00 SpiderFire. This was more than I wanted to spend for something to use while at work. I realized that I was using the SpiderFire on almost a daily basis, and found that it wasn't giving me quite enough utility. So, now I had about $45.00 invested and still wasn't meeting my own lighting needs.

Lesson learned, I finally moved up to the $70.00 Jet-1 Pro; which I should have started with.

With shipping, I wasted about $50.00 on the first two flashlights; which was money that could have gone towards the very usable (for my purposes) $70.00 flashlight.

Looking back, I can tell you that I got what I paid for.


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## CampingLED (Mar 27, 2010)

You pay for the logistics chain, from R&D to delivery to end user. Some chains consist of more expensive steps.


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## carrot (Mar 27, 2010)

Without a doubt, Surefire IS better quality than Streamlight. Surefire is better quality than pretty much any other in the production world, and without equal. Anyone who says otherwise is either biased or ignorant.

That said, Surefire is not always the brightest. 

They are too large of a company, with too much internal strife, to be as fast and maneuverable as the smaller companies like 4sevens, Olight, Fenix, etcetera. 

But they also spend far more money on R&D and sell more flashlights than any of the small companies that have gained favor here. Surefire is not exactly on the leading edge of high output LEDs but that is not their promise. They are innovators in design, creating the two-stage switch, the P60 lamp/drop-in system, the lockout tailcap, and pioneered the usage of 123's in flashlights. They create reliable, tough and simple to use flashlights that you can use into the ground. They have world class customer service that will replace broken bulbs, worn out clicky boots, broken or melted windows at the drop of a hat.

I myself have dozens of Surefire. I also have 4sevens, Fenix, Olight, Inova, Streamlight, Peak, Pelican, LRI and plenty others. You want to try some real quality? Try the Surefire Saint, which is a headlamp without equal. Or try the LX2 or E2DL or E1B. Or check out a C-series Surefire of your choice and a Malkoff M61. Trust me, you'll be blown away. 

By the way, I have also seen a Solarforce L2. Not even close to the 6P. Both are dumb hosts, yes, but the Solarforce is cheap junk by a long shot.

If you want to simply have the brightest, most cutting edge LEDs, look elsewhere. But if you want quality, elegant design, and support one of the biggest innovators, Surefire is the only choice.


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## KingCanada (Mar 27, 2010)

carrot said:


> Without a doubt, Surefire IS better quality than Streamlight. Surefire is better quality than pretty much any other in the production world, and without equal. Anyone who says otherwise is either biased or ignorant.
> 
> That said, Surefire is not always the brightest.
> 
> ...



I couldn't agree more!


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## Noctis (Mar 27, 2010)

To me, it sounds like a decision between buying a Mac and a PC. Sure the Mac costs more and the PC supposedly has "better" specs, but at the very least you don't need to throw the Mac away every 2-3 years(5 if you push it) and buy a new one.

I've also never heard any complaints so far about Surefire as far as product defects go.

I was personally thinking about a Surefire 6P body with a Nailbender SST-90 drop-in, but installation seemed a bit complicated, the direct drive sounds like the light would get dimmer as the battery drained, and the inability to take RCR123 cells kind of takes out the economical(rechargable) option.


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## Igor Porto (Mar 27, 2010)

I don't think the Mac/PC is a good analogy for this case... the main difference between them is operational system, not hardware. I'm a Mac user for a very long time, and use them because Mac OS is much superior to anything else. By the way Macs don't cost more, if you take for example a good hardware like Dell, with the same specs, they're equal in price or the Dell is more expensive.


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## Saint_Dogbert (Mar 27, 2010)

Again?


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## pwatcher (Mar 27, 2010)

Igor Porto said:


> I don't get it either. Surefire recently announced their new line of flashlights... and when you take a look at them, they're still putting out 150 lumens for 2 hours on 2xCR123. Nothing brighter or more efficient. The competition is way beyond them, always striving for more efficient and brighter flashlights, year after year after year.
> 
> They announced a ultramegablastingbright 400 lumens QUAD die flashlight, making it look like it's the newest technology available, but they're not.
> When I look at Surefire, it remembers me of [email protected], using outdated technology (luxeons and rebels) and printing their catalogs like they discovered the fire: our NEW quad dies with ultimate technology.
> I don't get it. And I don't want flames, this is just my opinion.


yes, but don't some makers drive the emitters harder than Surefire, with perhaps a hit in reliability/durability years down the line?

how many of those makers have lifetime guarantee like Surefire?

like others have said, different market segment. For SHTF situations, I'd grab a SF first. For playing in the backyard, well, an Olight M30 is pretty fun!


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## uknewbie (Mar 27, 2010)

Why does this topic always relate to Surefire only?

There are other premium brands that are very high quality, Jetbeam for one.

Some of the custom made stuff and smaller company stuff is also very high quality (Lummi, Elektrolumens)

Surefre seems to be more of an issue in the USA, I think here in the UK and elsewhere, we don't really care as much about Surefire.


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## Painful Chafe (Mar 27, 2010)

I just received a T20C2 with the R5. After playing with the Surefire line up at a local tactical store, I wouldn't do a straight up trade for any of them. Sorry, but true all you Surefire guys. The only reason I would, was to put it in the BST and sell it to one of the Surefire guys mentioned above, get a T20C2 and pocket some coin to use for the upcoming EagleTAC PC20C2. 

There are some people that pay extra for Surefire quality, which may or may not be there. I have found all my Fenix, Olight and several EagleTAC's quality to be superb.


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## Noctis (Mar 27, 2010)

Igor Porto said:


> I don't think the Mac/PC is a good analogy for this case... the main difference between them is operational system, not hardware. I'm a Mac user for a very long time, and use them because Mac OS is much superior to anything else. By the way Macs don't cost more, if you take for example a good hardware like Dell, with the same specs, they're equal in price or the Dell is more expensive.


That's more or less my point exactly. The Windows PCs have much higher specs because the OS(especially Vista) NEEDs that extra power to even run regularly.

I'm also not sure if the hardware is any superior, but I can tell you that my Mac still runs as well as it did when I first bought it(a little over a year ago). Whereas all my previous PCs had a steady decline in performance as time passed, which not even a reformatting/wiping would fix.

"Once you go Mac, you don't go back" :twothumbs

Surefire certainly seems to fit that profile on a first impression. They try to do more with less. Instead of chugging out more power with more powerful LEDs or forcing more output out of the LED with 18650 batteries and whatnot, the TiR seems to take the old beam of light and teach it new tricks(getting more throw without higher beam output).


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## Noctis (Mar 27, 2010)

uknewbie said:


> Why does this topic always relate to Surefire only?
> 
> There are other premium brands that are very high quality, Jetbeam for one.
> 
> ...


From Wikipedia:


> Their model Z2 LED CombatLight is standard issue to the FBI and the United States Marshals Service.





> SureFire began as a laser sight company, Laser Products Corporation. The company is the biggest supplier of flashlights to the U.S. Armed Forces. The flashlights seen mounted on M4 carbines and M16 rifles carried by U.S. troops in Afghanistan and Iraq are almost all SureFire products. SureFire products are also extensively used by federal, state and local law-enforcement agencies. Most SWAT team use SureFire lights, and the company continues to make a variety of dedicated tactical lights for various riot guns, rifles, and machine guns. SureFire products are also used by the United Kingdom Special Forces.



Considering that Jetbeam, Fenix, EagleTac, and other brands don't even show up in Wikipedia, is it any wonder that someone completely FOB(fresh off the boat) to flashlights would look to Surefire as the mainstream?

At least now there should be no question as to why Surefire is popular in the US. The US military would put their tools through its paces more rigorously than any citizen(more by virtue of the fact that their use of tools is far more regular than the average citizen). So why not use what our troops use?


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## Surnia (Mar 27, 2010)

Noctis said:


> That's more or less my point exactly. The Windows PCs have much higher specs because the OS(especially Vista) NEEDs that extra power to even run regularly.
> 
> I'm also not sure if the hardware is any superior, but I can tell you that my Mac still runs as well as it did when I first bought it(a little over a year ago). Whereas all my previous PCs had a steady decline in performance as time passed, which not even a reformatting/wiping would fix.
> 
> ...


Until you realize you have program compatibility issues, no way to fix a mac on your own, and paying more money for a system you'll probably dual boot anyway. Besides, the resource hog known as Vista has essentially been solved by 7. I've also noticed the slowdown over time, but that's due to increased program loading on the computer, crappy thermal management from prebuilt systems (alienware is a BIG example of this, ONE fan to cool multiple GPUs and the CPU, with virtually no air intake points), and dust accumulation WITHIN the system. 
Granted I am fairly biased against Macs (I firmly believe they are excellent at marketing, but fail miserably with hardware and software.), so you can take my opinion with a grain of salt...


Back to the thread,
Another way to look at Surefire is that everyone here agrees you need at least a doubling of output to perceive a 50% increase in brightness. They don't have much need to boost the brightness until outputs of LEDs can hit 400 lumens. Its also the target market, reliability and consistency probably fits into the desires of their consumers more than pure output numbers.

Its like compound archery, hunters continually try to shoot a bow that flings an arrow as fast as possible regardless of how absurdly heavy the bow might be, or how harsh the bow might draw (70# or more on some seriously harsh cams) because they only need to use it maybe once. They then proceed to sell the bow next year, or even next product cycle for that extra rotor cuff tearing 10fps. However, once you look back to competitions, the top shooters are probably only shooting about 50# on outdoor tournaments, as they need the consistency and reliability of both the bow and their own strength to last through an entire tournament.


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## the.Mtn.Man (Mar 27, 2010)

Noctis said:


> To me, it sounds like a decision between buying a Mac and a PC.


You mean one is inexpensive, versatile, and easily upgradeable while the other is overpriced, overrated, and if you want to upgrade you need to toss the whole thing out and buy the latest model?



(For the record, I use both Mac and PC on a regular basis. Also, don't equate PC with Windows. My PC has Linux installed on it which is the best operating system in the world. Why, yes, that is a fact. )


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## jp2515 (Mar 27, 2010)

Saint_Dogbert said:


> Again?



Yes...



uknewbie said:


> Why does this topic always relate to Surefire only?
> 
> There are other premium brands that are very high quality, Jetbeam for one.
> 
> ...



Exactly.


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## kramer5150 (Mar 27, 2010)

Noctis said:


> Still, what exactly would I be paying Surefire for? I'm personally tempted to buy an E2DL(at $150 on eBay), for no other reason than because it's "better" than what I have <_<



Paying a premium for something simply because its better than what I currently have... is a good enough reason IMHO. On a more detail level, here is what you are getting for your $$$.

-Unmatched typeIII quality, and feel in the hand.
-Lifetime replacement parts warranty + customer service.
-Flat regulated output, 200+ Lumens as verified by independent CPF reviewers. 
-Support of American labor and an American company.
-Surefire reputation of durability and design robustness.
-Abundant supply of used replacement / lego parts on the CPF marketplace.
-Aftermarket designs from third party vendors that are based off the Surefire E series designs.
-Surefire accessories
-Sense of satisfaction owning a product, and backing a company that complies to the Berry Ammendment, and issued to US armed forces.
-Sense of satisfaction from supporting a design originator and original patent holder... over an imitation.
-Several very reputable CPF modders are at your disposal to transform it into whatever you want.

These are the key points in the E2DL, there are others too. Whether or not these are perks you are willing to pay for is up to you. Its a great light, I dont think you will be disappointed. I recently got the more toned down E2L and am happy with my purchase. I didn't buy it for its brightness, I bought it for its run times with RCR123 cells, at the 110 lumen level.

Another option I think you should consider would be a C2, paired with a Malkoff drop in. C2s go for ~$65 on ebay. You should be able to get a complete setup for under $150.


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## Mnementh (Mar 27, 2010)

Keep in mind that I don't own a Surefire, and haven't researched them in depth yet, so I reserve the right for my opinion to be wrong.  

From everything I've read, I think of them as the 'premium' brand of higher end flashlights as far as quality and reliability goes. Reliability would mean using proven, stable technology for the LED/Incan bulb assembly, and building a body built to last and take the punishment of the demands for its intended owners. (Police, fire and military seem to be the targeted audience of their website.) This is not to say that any of the other manufacturers like Fenix, Olight, etc etc are not good quality, or that they don't do as well in the same applications. But, in my opinion, using newer technology like the latest/greatest LEDs for a brighter beam would reduce the reliability. 

Surefire has been successfully marketed as the gold standard for the industry, and I certainly wouldn't turn my nose up at one if I found one that met the need I was shopping for, for a price I was willing to pay.

As I said, I personally don't own one, and I'm not shopping to buy one. For the money, I can get good, quality lights that fit my requirements for far less than a Surefire. 

As for quality = more lumens, I don't really think the two go hand in hand. Lumens is just how much light is being emitted, but different applications require different lighting levels. Using the Wicked Lasers Torch to read the newpaper after dark would be overkill. (And would set the paper on fire, as well!) Using a Maglite Solitaire to change a tire in the dead of night is equally futile. The phrase "the right tool for the right job" comes to mind. A light can have 5 lumens, or 5000, and it doesn't affect the quality of the light at all. Just how much light it puts out.


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## the.Mtn.Man (Mar 27, 2010)

Noctis said:


> At least now there should be no question as to why Surefire is popular in the US. The US military would put their tools through its paces more rigorously than any citizen(more by virtue of the fact that their use of tools is far more regular than the average citizen). So why not use what our troops use?


All that means is that Surefire has earned a reputation and people trust them, but it doesn't mean that there aren't other lights on the market that are just as reliable and durable. But since Surefire is established, it'll be tough for anybody else to get their foot in the door with professionals the way Surefire has.


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## jhc37013 (Mar 27, 2010)

For anyone thinking Surefire is not as bright as competitors or are behind in optic (LED) technology have you actually tried a TIR optic Surefire light like the E2DL, LX2, E1B? 

For example I just got a couple Eagletac P20C2 MKII's rated at 300 OTF(awesome lights), sounds like it would dominate the 200 lumen E2DL right? Wrong the only area it's better at is spill the TIR design of the Surefire blows the P20C2 MKII in throw it just cannot keep up with the wide bright hotspot of the E2DL and its not like the TIR doesn't have any spill because it does. 

Now take the "80" lumen E1B another great TIR optic Surefire, I put it up against one of Jetbeam's latest greatest light's the RRT-0 a heck of a light that I carry often rated at 240 lumen. Sounds like it will also beat the snot out of the E1B in output, well not really. Outside in real world use not a ceiling bounce test the E1B out throws my RRT-0 and has a wider hotspot on target at all distances, the RRT-0 has brighter spill but the E1B's spill does well enough to get the job done. Oh yes almost forgot to mention the E1B also doubles the RRT0 in runtime.

Don't always look at how many lumens it has but also consider the R&D of the optic design like the TIR. I'm not saying all Surefire's are like this their is a couple I have I wish had a more updated emitter while using a reflector design like the U2 or T1A. That's just my thought's about it to each his own.


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## Painful Chafe (Mar 27, 2010)

True. SF's have great throw to size, if that is what your looking for. This makes a great tactical and or weapon mounted light, but IMHO does not make a good light for the general user. More throw, small size and low amount of spill are important for a "truely" tactical purposes, especially weapons mount. Most people are looking for useful spill. Compare a similarly priced reflector SF to a similar Olight, Fenix, EagleTAC, Jetbeam, etc and the SF gets is rear end handed to it. I wondered what would happen if the above mentioned companies designed a similar light(bright spot, less and more narrow spill and same size) what would the outcome be? Such a light would likely require optics, and other companies probably realize they would have a hard time recouping their R and D/manufacturing cost for such a light. It would be hard to take enough business away from SF to make it financially worthy.

The lights you mentioned are a specialized, more focused towards tactical, and are an apples and oranges comparison.

This is all personal opinion. The whole SF vs. ? debate can get very contentious and I think I just added to it. Sorry. :shrug:


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## jhc37013 (Mar 27, 2010)

More specialized, apples to oranges how, it doesn't make sense. 

E1B- A pocket light, thats all it is
LX2- A EDC light, considered by many the best "EDC" light made
E2DL- small tube 2xcr123 that I easily EDC

You say they are more geared towards tactical how? What is a Olight M20, Jetbeam M, Fenix TK11. They are considered tactical lights and how is the beam on them? Tight spot geared towards throw.


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## Painful Chafe (Mar 27, 2010)

I'm speaking mostly about the spill. Spill is a distraction to the user in many/most "true" tactical situations. Reflected spill off walls, trees, buildings, ground hurts night vision and actually makes the "spot" appear dimmer. Here is a great thread with outdoor pictures. Notice the other lights compared to the E2DL: https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/214238

If the pictures were shining down a white hallway, you would see more what I'm saying. Here are some picts. 

T10C2







TK11






E2DL








Remember, I am NOT saying because of this the SF lights are inferior. On the contrary, if someone is looking for this type of beam, they are far supperior to the others. I, and I think most others want more spill.

And on further reflection. I'm pretty sure I would trade my T20 for an LX2. I just can't say it is a light that is worth 2.5 times more than the T20C2.


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## DimeRazorback (Mar 27, 2010)

the.Mtn.Man said:


> Part of the reason *Surefire is so expensive* is not simply because of the quality but *because they move less inventory* *than* a company like *Nitecore or Fenix*.



I seriously loled hard at this.



Ignorance is bliss. :shakehead


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## jhc37013 (Mar 27, 2010)

Painful Chafe said:


> Spill is a distraction to the user in many/most "true" tactical situations. Reflected spill off walls, trees, buildings, ground hurts night vision and actually makes the "spot" appear dimmer.



This is another reason I like the Surefire TIR it just feels easier on the eyes and perifial vision.


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## Painful Chafe (Mar 27, 2010)

Please click one of the Quick Reply icons in the posts above to activate Quick Reply.


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## jhc37013 (Mar 27, 2010)

Are you talking to me why?


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## the.Mtn.Man (Mar 27, 2010)

DimeRazorback said:


> I seriously loled hard at this.
> 
> 
> 
> Ignorance is bliss. :shakehead


Or you could simply offer a correction without acting like a jerk.


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## DimeRazorback (Mar 27, 2010)

Fair enough, however saying things that you obviously have no idea about lead to others suffering from the same lack of knowledge.

You did blatantly state what you made out to be a "fact", so I thought it was quite humorous how incorrect you were.

My intention wasn't to be a jerk mind you, I am just upfront and honest.


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## the.Mtn.Man (Mar 27, 2010)

DimeRazorback said:


> Fair enough, however saying things that you obviously have no idea about lead to others suffering from the same lack of knowledge.
> 
> You did blatantly state what you made out to be a "fact", so I thought it was quite humorous how incorrect you were.
> 
> My intention wasn't to be a jerk mind you, I am just upfront and honest.


----------



## waddup (Mar 27, 2010)

the.Mtn.Man said:


>


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## Painful Chafe (Mar 27, 2010)

jhc37013 said:


> Are you talking to me why?




Sorry. My Blackberry doesn't like this site(I need an Iphone)

What I was trying to say before was I just got a new job with rediculous money involved. With all this talk about Surefire's I think I'm going to have to get me an LX2. 

Maybe I'm changing my opinions on Surefire.


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## jhc37013 (Mar 27, 2010)

I am glad my phone doesn't like it either or I would really be in trouble, with the wife that is. LX2 heck yeh get one it's the nicest looking light I have I would carry it more often if it had a clicky but that's why I have a E2DL, maybe one day their will be a clicky tailcap for my LX2.


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## angelofwar (Mar 27, 2010)

Two things...

-The devil is in the details...right down to the smoothened threads, high quality o-rings, pressure tested, etc.
-Will any of these other guys replace your light, and not charge shpping, if you accidentally drop it and it quits working??? SF has some of (if not THE) best CS in the business...which is part of the price tag...


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## jimmy1970 (Mar 27, 2010)

the.Mtn.Man said:


> Different market. Their flashlights are aimed at enthusiasts and collectors who buy several flashlights a year as opposed to Surefire that appeals primarily to law enforcement or search and rescue professionals who will buy one flashlight and stick with it. Part *of the reason Surefire is so expensive is not simply because of the quality but because they move less inventory than a company like Nitecore or Fenix*.


Don't feel bad Mtn Man, your statement whilst incorrect for the total flashlight market, is probably right on the money when you consider just the CPF market. I bet the average CPF member buys more Quarks, Fenix, Olights or Jetbeam lights than Surefires!! (Excluding Surefire collectors that have hundreds of the bloody things):devil:

James.....


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## bullettproof (Mar 27, 2010)

the.Mtn.Man said:


> Or you could simply offer a correction without acting like a jerk.



FYI SUREIFRE did 500 Million US Dollar Sales last year. 

Nitecore Fenix Eagletac and all the others cant hold a stick to Surefire.


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## bullettproof (Mar 27, 2010)

Im done with all the CHINA lights for now. Ive sold all of my CHINAS and have all Surefires Night and day difference in quality.And yes the TIR is Amazing if you dont have one get one.

So far in the last 2 weeks Ive gotten the E2DL C2HA with dual XPG a 6P XPG and a Kroma on the way!!!!!!!!


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## DimeRazorback (Mar 28, 2010)

the.Mtn.Man said:


>




That is a good image.

But do you now consider yourself a jerk?

By the way, I never did try to correct you, so that image doesn't really apply to me... :ironic: :shrug:

If you wish to continue this, feel free to PM me 


P.s the ironic thing about you posting that image, is the fact that you were actually offended by what somebody said to you on the internet...


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## psychbeat (Mar 28, 2010)

I guess I "sorta" have a "surefire" -
I got a BEAUTIFUL ha grey C2 from EG
w/ mcclicky etc. from EG
even tho I know I could have gotten a
WAAAAY cheaper host for my NB sst50
it's weird how people hate on them for not
being "real" surefires. I just consider it
an expensive "custom" light made/modded
by fellow flashaholics. I know there are
cheaper alternatives and maybe better
p60 hosts BUT think of all of the lights
"we" buy just cus we WANT them for some
unknown reason... 
its a bit of a silly fetish but its FUN so lets
"lighten up"?
:nana::wave:


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## SureAddicted (Mar 28, 2010)

As for quality, fit & finish, nothing comes close to SF...that is my opinion and it has been that way since the early 90's.
As for lumens, again nothing beats SF. You have to realise, SF had a 500 lumen light on the market before the mainstream companies were in business, or when 50 lumens lights were the norm. So yeah, take that one to the bank.
What this thread represents, is a way for the unenlightened or "noob" to justify that their $10 Junkfire is just as good if not equal to a SF.


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## Noctis (Mar 28, 2010)

To be honest I was kind of drooling over this light:
http://www.lighthound.com/MKN-SST-90-MOD-Flashlight--one-26650-Battery-SST-90-LED_p_3479.html

Now I'm no expert, but looking at the 120 lumens from my TL-2 seemed barely tolerable, with plenty of ambient light. I'm thinking that 729 lumens would definitely cause physical pain if one were to look at it.

Still, a few things kept me away from it, despite only being $35 more than the E2DL.

The obvious "Made in China" body(the site says as much) leads me to question exactly how long it will last. There's no information on throw/spill. It definitely seems more "bulky". And it doesn't seem like anyone here has had any experience with the thing.

I'd get a Surefire 6P body with a Malkoff M60 dropin, but it seems like the thing is out of stock, and I have some doubts as to their ability to keep the thing in stock anytime soon.

Edit:
Just found a 500 lumens Solarforce L2M for $50. Is it just me or does that sound too frickin ridiculously good to be true?

Edit2:
After reading a HECK of a lot of threads, I was considering a Surefire 6p body with an sst-90 dropin. Problem is, the parts are scattered all over and it's giving me a titanic headache trying to figure out how to get everything into a flashlight.


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## uknewbie (Mar 28, 2010)

SureAddicted said:


> What this thread represents, is a way for the unenlightened or "noob" to justify that their $10 Junkfire is just as good if not equal to a SF.



This was my point earlier. Not everything is a comparison between Surefire or junk!

There are many other premium, expensive, quality brands and custom makers out there. In the UK at any rate, I don't really think a £130 Jetbeam is cheap, or a £55 Lummi or a £140 RA Clicky. These are not "junkfire".

If people want to buy Surefire because they are made in the USA, or because Wikipedia says that the US army uses them, then fine, whatever floats your boat. I am sure they are good quality too. None of this means that everything else is inferior though, because it isn't.


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## SureAddicted (Mar 28, 2010)

What I refer to as Junkfire is anything not made by mainstream companies.
Plus, it's my opinion....so take it on the chin.


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## the.Mtn.Man (Mar 28, 2010)

DimeRazorback said:


> But do you now consider yourself a jerk?


No.



DimeRazorback said:


> P.s the ironic thing about you posting that image, is the fact that you were actually offended by what somebody said to you on the internet...


Was I?


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## CampingLED (Mar 28, 2010)

Most product prices are reflected on a logarithmic scale of price vs. quality. Just look at the high end hi-fi components vs. price. SF is somewhere in the middle to the top.

Looking at my business, my prices are between the lowest and highest, but my quality is better. I do not advertise, but still my business is growing through word of mouth.

Best bang for the buck will probably always go to budget lights and I have many. I mostly buy them for the host and mod them afterwards. Just ordered one today for the host only.


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## the.Mtn.Man (Mar 28, 2010)

I wonder how much of Surefire's reputation is driven by the premium price tag? For instance, imagine if Surefire only charged half the price but the quality stayed exactly the same? Would people then be saying, "Yeah, Surefire lights are nice, but Brand X which costs twice as much makes better lights."


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## march.brown (Mar 28, 2010)

uknewbie said:


> This was my point earlier. Not everything is a comparison between Surefire or junk!
> 
> There are many other premium, expensive, quality brands and custom makers out there. In the UK at any rate, I don't really think a £130 Jetbeam is cheap, or a £55 Lummi or a £140 RA Clicky. These are not "junkfire".
> 
> If people want to buy Surefire because they are made in the USA, or because Wikipedia says that the US army uses them, then fine, whatever floats your boat. I am sure they are good quality too. None of this means that everything else is inferior though, because it isn't.


.
Some people are on a lower income than others and are forced by circumstance to spend less on their torches ... At 72 , I am in this sector but I still enjoy my torches even though they are "only" Solarforces , Romisen , Trustfire , iTps and Maglites ... After much research , I buy the best that I can on my limited budget.

However , particularly for most UK residents , Surefires are ridiculously expensive and must be excuded from purchase.

I don't see how a Surefire can be ten or fifteen times as good as a Solarforce ... I can replace a Solarforce if it is lost , stolen or faulty , for a few dollars ... I have yet to find one with damaged or poor threads and a little lube would help if it was actually needed ... The only one that actually needed lube was a Maglite 3AA LED.

There isn't that much to a torch ... A body , A tailcap , A dropin and a Lens unit ... The Solarforce is used by many as a host body for any dropin that you care to use ... You could put the best possible dropin into a Solarforce body and have a real top class torch , even better than the equivalent Surefire ... If you don't like the body colour or the tailcap type , just change them for a few dollars ... Easy-Peasy.

A "super-duper-hard-as-a-diamond" external finish doesn't bother me at all , as I take great care of my torches ... Even at my age , I have yet to damage a torch by dropping it onto a hard surface ... None of them are scratched or rubbed yet and I don't mind too much anyway as they are only a torch ... If they get scratched or damaged , they (or the parts) can easily be replaced at a sensible price.

It's the same as a watch ... I need my watch to tell the time accurately so I have a couple of Seikos ... The 8F56-00C8 Movement in my perpetual calendar is guaranteed to be within a just few seconds per year ... Mine was four seconds slow two years ago and now it is five seconds slow ... I can live with that ... After a few years of everyday wear , the stainless steel surface is probably duller than when new , but it is only a watch ... Contrast this with a stainless Rolex that was badly scratched after only two years of similar use and was no-where near as accurate as this Seiko ... A service on the Rolex cost more than the Seiko watch ... So in my opinion "you don't always get what you pay for" ... My few-years-old slim dress-watch is a Seiko LD in mirror finish stainless steel and is absolutely as good as new , even the bracelet ... Now *that* is value for money.

You pay your money and hope for the best ! ... I've been just plain lucky , I guess.
.


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## CampingLED (Mar 28, 2010)

Tks for the above post. Some very wise words. :wave:


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## ky70 (Mar 28, 2010)

SureAddicted said:


> As for quality, fit & finish, nothing comes close to SF...that is my opinion and it has been that way since the early 90's.


I generally have a hard time believing absolute statements like this. I don't have a Surefire nor do I have many of SFs competitors, but during these competitive times in most industries, I find it difficult to believe that the "best" in a product field does not have a serious challenger in both quality and price...especially the LED flashlight segment as it's not new and companies have had much time to close quality gaps that SF may have maintained for years.

I look forward to discovering SF lights personally and finding out for myself if they're that much better than the competition, but for now I'm just an interested observer with doubts that any "favorite" in the flashlight LED arena could be lapping the competetion .


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## mn_doggie (Mar 28, 2010)

*Re: You get what you pay for...or DO you?*

Definitely not when it comes to taxes and government.....

Someone once said, we're lucky we don't get the government we pay for....


Very new to CPF, so far I've been pretty pleased with my "imported" purchases. I've paid less that I could afford at this point 'cuz I'm still deciphering what options are available and am trying to decide just what I need. 

Look forward to buying other lights. Will buy based more on preceived value rather than source alone.


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## LeifUK (Mar 28, 2010)

the.Mtn.Man said:


> Different market. Their flashlights are aimed at enthusiasts and collectors who buy several flashlights a year as opposed to Surefire that appeals primarily to law enforcement or search and rescue professionals who will buy one flashlight and stick with it. Part of the reason Surefire is so expensive is not simply because of the quality but because they move less inventory than a company like Nitecore or Fenix.



Isn't the main reason why they are so expensive the fact that they manufacture in the US? Labour rates are much higher in the west. The quality has to be higher otherwise they would not sell, since the Chinese compete on price.


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## kramer5150 (Mar 28, 2010)

ky70 said:


> I generally have a hard time believing absolute statements like this. I don't have a Surefire nor do I have many of SFs competitors, but during these competitive times in most industries, I find it difficult to believe that the "best" in a product field does not have a serious challenger in both quality and price...especially the LED flashlight segment as it's not new and companies have had much time to close quality gaps that SF may have maintained for years.
> 
> I look forward to discovering SF lights personally and finding out for myself if they're that much better than the competition, but for now I'm just an interested observer with doubts that any "favorite" in the flashlight LED arena could be lapping the competetion .



I too have a hard time believing generalized statements. But in the case of Surefire, every one I have held has felt solid, hefty and a feel of quality, compared to similar form-factor competition. I go into CPF meets with an open mind, sampling a little of everything, and when the meet is over its the Surefire brand as a whole that remains the most impressive of the non-boutique / non-custom lights.

I also like fit/feel/finish of the Jetbeam lights I have handled. IMHO they are overall very close to SF, and one of the best chinese manufacturers.... again in terms of brands as a whole.


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## LeifUK (Mar 28, 2010)

Noctis said:


> At least now there should be no question as to why Surefire is popular in the US. The US military would put their tools through its paces more rigorously than any citizen(more by virtue of the fact that their use of tools is far more regular than the average citizen). So why not use what our troops use?



The military have very different requirements to most of us. For example, they probably require that a torch pass various tests such as surviving adverse conditions, including rain, sand, dust, extreme cold and heat etc, which are irrelevant for normal home use. It may well be that Fenix ect lights could survive the tests, but I suspect that a Chinese company would not want to spend money certifying their equipment on the off change the US government might buy some. The US government probably would not buy from China anyway, given that China is a potential enemy, and security of supply is important. 



kramer5150 said:


> Paying a premium for something simply because its better than what I currently have... is a good enough reason IMHO. On a more detail level, here is what you are getting for your $$$.
> 
> -Unmatched typeIII quality, and feel in the hand.
> -Lifetime replacement parts warranty + customer service.
> ...



I suspect that most of those benefits are irrelevant to most torch users, unless they want bragging rights. Especially since many torches will end up being left in a car only to be stolen during the annual service, or left on a bus or somewhere else for someone else to find, and so on. I don't doubt some people will prefer Surefire with good reason.


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## kramer5150 (Mar 28, 2010)

LeifUK said:


> The military have very different requirements to most of us. For example, they probably require that a torch pass various tests such as surviving adverse conditions, including rain, sand, dust, extreme cold and heat etc, which are irrelevant for normal home use. It may well be that Fenix ect lights could survive the tests, but I suspect that a Chinese company would not want to spend money certifying their equipment on the off change the US government might buy some. The US government probably would not buy from China anyway, given that China is a potential enemy, and security of supply is important.
> 
> 
> 
> I suspect that most of those benefits are irrelevant to most torch users, unless they want bragging rights. Especially since many torches will end up being left in a car only to be stolen during the annual service, or left on a bus or somewhere else for someone else to find, and so on. I don't doubt some people will prefer Surefire with good reason.



This is a little off topic, but what the heck I think I can word this without offending anyone. With the California economy in shambles, companies flocking overseas, unemployment in the double digits, and CA residents loosing jobs faster than I can remember, I find there is a certain amount of satisfaction buying a Surefire.

The NUMMI Plant in Fremont, a 25 year joint-venture between Toyota and GM is closing for good this week. ~3200 Bay area residents will be left jobless. Furthermore, everal thousand supplier employees working across the state supplying parts to the assembly lines will also be out of work.

Call it bragging rights, snobbery, racism... whatever. It is what it is... a sense of satisfaction supporting a local company, made by fellow Californians on US soil. Sure my little purchase of one SF light every 5-6 months cant really help... but it certainly does not hurt.


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## the.Mtn.Man (Mar 28, 2010)

ky70 said:


> I generally have a hard time believing absolute statements like this. I don't have a Surefire nor do I have many of SFs competitors, but during these competitive times in most industries, I find it difficult to believe that the "best" in a product field does not have a serious challenger in both quality and price...especially the LED flashlight segment as it's not new and companies have had much time to close quality gaps that SF may have maintained for years.


I agree. When you look at the number of Surefire's competitors that have survived destructive testing, it's hard to buy claims that Surefire flashlights are always the best in every way.

To put it another way, while Surefire makes great flashlights, they're not the only company to do so.


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## Vortus (Mar 28, 2010)

Howdy

Noob to this hobby but as this same discussion seems to cross forums for every hobby across the internet figure to add my .02. IE in camcorders (as Sony was mentioned earlier), some brands thats definitely true. Quite a few of my family like Panasonic video products, TV's, Camcorders etc. Though Panasonic makes some of the cheap stuff on the market today, they also make some of the best if you are willing to shell out the coin. Heh, and actually have a use for it. There is a significant difference between the top of the line consumer (HDC-HS700K) and professional products  (AJ-HPX3000). To my eye on the screen, not a bit of difference. But to my uncle who uses them for a living, huge difference. It comes down to the individual choice, details, and how much the individual cares about the details. Along with how much the individual is willing to pay for those details.


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## psychbeat (Mar 28, 2010)

kramer5150 said:


> This is a little off topic, but what the heck I think I can word this without offending anyone. With the California economy in shambles, companies flocking overseas, unemployment in the double digits, and CA residents loosing jobs faster than I can remember, I find there is a certain amount of satisfaction buying a Surefire.
> 
> The NUMMI Plant in Fremont, a 25 year joint-venture between Toyota and GM is closing for good this week. ~3200 Bay area residents will be left jobless. Furthermore, everal thousand supplier employees working across the state supplying parts to the assembly lines will also be out of work.
> 
> Call it bragging rights, snobbery, racism... whatever. It is what it is... a sense of satisfaction supporting a local company, made by fellow Californians on US soil. Sure my little purchase of one SF light every 5-6 months cant really help... but it certainly does not hurt.


 
yeah I like supporting the artisans on this board as well!!
I run a small poster printing business for indie bands and
somehow it just feels "right" to spend a little more on a
nailbender, electronguru, 4sevens (no matter where they manu)
anto, malkoff etc etc.
Its pretty cool to have direct contact with the people making yer
stuff!! NO MATTER WHAT COUNTRY they live in


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## LeifUK (Mar 28, 2010)

kramer5150 said:


> This is a little off topic, but what the heck I think I can word this without offending anyone. With the California economy in shambles, companies flocking overseas, unemployment in the double digits, and CA residents loosing jobs faster than I can remember, I find there is a certain amount of satisfaction buying a Surefire.
> 
> The NUMMI Plant in Fremont, a 25 year joint-venture between Toyota and GM is closing for good this week. ~3200 Bay area residents will be left jobless. Furthermore, everal thousand supplier employees working across the state supplying parts to the assembly lines will also be out of work.
> 
> Call it bragging rights, snobbery, racism... whatever. It is what it is... a sense of satisfaction supporting a local company, made by fellow Californians on US soil. Sure my little purchase of one SF light every 5-6 months cant really help... but it certainly does not hurt.



There's nothing wrong with that attitude. Now, which UK made torch shall I buy next, err, mmm, slight problem, ahem, errr, oh dear ...


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## SFG2Lman (Mar 28, 2010)

i look at it this way: For the price of a brand new corvette, you could probably buy 2 or 3 honda civics and drop turbo kits and such in there and make all three faster than the vette. The difference is on one hand you still have 3 economy cars, on the other hand you have a corvette. Its not all about speed (lumens/output) there are a lot of nuances in a light, and to some extent, yes, bragging rights. But who's never thought it would be great to have a vette? Odds are that vette will still be running 30 years from now, odds are also good those 3 honda civics are either wrapped around a tree or blown up and rotting in a junkyard 30 years from now. I'm not trying to say Surefire is the the absolute best, we have a few ferraris and lambo custom light-makers around (mmmm handstitched italian leather light) But as far a major manufacturer's go, Surefire has it, by a long shot. Don't get me wrong, I adore my quarks...to an unhealthy point, but my 6P is just beautiful (yes i carry both, daily)


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## lapd.erik (Mar 28, 2010)

Wow seems like this topic always gets heated around here and i always wonder why. To me i love my Surefire's. My dad used them when he was a cop in Los Angeles and now i am doing the same 20 years later. Surefire is a huge brand name and it will be hard to beat. Every shotgun in our department has a Surefire 6p led mounted on them in the gun cage, and a 9p in our crown vics. Whatever flashlight you guys love rock on, and stay safe.
-Erik


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## recDNA (Mar 28, 2010)

Assuming sf "quality" is better what exactly does that mean? I've read plenty of posts about broken sf. And what do sf owners do? Bore out the tube so I guess tube isn't perfect. Get a mcclicky so I guess clicky isn't ideal. Replace the p60 because the leds are a generation behind. And of course we'll need to replace the lens...so what's left?
If we leave it exactly as is and it lasts 20 years do you really want to be 20 years behind the technology curve?


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## TKC (Mar 28, 2010)

carrot said:


> Without a doubt, Surefire IS better quality than Streamlight. Surefire is better quality than pretty much any other in the production world, and without equal. Anyone who says otherwise is either biased or ignorant.
> 
> That said, Surefire is not always the brightest.
> 
> ...


*Well said!!

Yes, you DO get what you pay for.*


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## Ecolang (Mar 28, 2010)

lapd.erik said:


> Wow seems like this topic always gets heated around here and i always wonder why. To me i love my Surefire's. My dad used them when he was a cop in Los Angeles and now i am doing the same 20 years later. Surefire is a huge brand name and it will be hard to beat. Every shotgun in our department has a Surefire 6p led mounted on them in the gun cage, and a 9p in our crown vics. Whatever flashlight you guys love rock on, and stay safe.
> -Erik



Good point. I do not own, and probably never will, own a Surefire but my needs and wants are different from yours.

Each to his own. The brand bashing threads really do get to be a bore.

Like you say - and say very well IM(not at all humble)O - rock on, and stay safe.


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## a1penguin (Mar 28, 2010)

I put bright Junkfire on my bike because I know that someday I might crash/fall get rained on and it will stop working. For $20-40 I can replace the broken Junkfire. I would not like having to replace a $150-200 Surefire.

I have a couple of Quarks and Jetbeam and indeed the quality is better, and IMHO think the prices are fair. But I don't need a Surefire, the Lexus of flashlights, for personal use. If my life depended on my flashlight, I would made different decisions.

But I did buy myself a present.... a Lummi Raw, which I am waiting to receive. Total Bling 

Flashlights are like cars: everyone has different standards and wants. It's very personal and I respect personal decisions. As for "getting what you pay for", it's way too subjective. Define some criteria and then people can decide if a product meets the bar.


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## vasp1 (Mar 28, 2010)

a1penguin said:


> If my life depended on my flashlight, I would made different decisions.
> :
> :
> Flashlights are like cars: everyone has different standards and wants. It's very personal and I respect personal decisions. As for "getting what you pay for", it's way too subjective. Define some criteria and then people can decide if a product meets the bar.


 
Totally agree. If your livelihood depends on having reliable tools then perhaps it's safe to assume that if it's good enough for the police and the military then it's good enough for most jobs.

I'm very, very new to this whole torch "thing". I've only a few Chinese lights from DX so perhaps I'm not best placed to comment.

Earlier in this thread one CPFer says he has "dozens" of SFs. Even if he only meets the minimum threshold that's 24 torches. With the best will in the world I can't imagine why you'd actually *need* 24 torches. The gentleman is obviously a big SF fan and has the funds to support the collection. Isn't that what collecting anything is all about?


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## Greg G (Mar 28, 2010)

I think some people make too much of the Type 3 hard anodizing. My *work* L5 is covered in bare aluminum marks. It does not hold up appreciably better than Type 2 in my experience.

I have bought my last new Surefire. I will however continue to buy parted out Surefires as they make trendy hosts.


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## Noctis (Mar 28, 2010)

I've decided to try to get the best of both worlds.

A Surefire 6P bored body with a 18650 cell and an SST-50 dropin.

From what NailBender tells me(unless I misunderstood him), I ought to be able to get 550 lumens with that setup.

The great irony is that the total cost will be about $203-$207, which seems to be about the same as that SST-90 from Lighthound.


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## psychbeat (Mar 29, 2010)

yer gonna be stoked on it. the NB sst 50s have a super nice 
BIG hotspot and wide spill. mines got a nice buttery tint too!
get sum AW 18650 2600mah and yer DONE!

oh and trim the spring a bit so the head screws down without
a gap. or take the spring off and smash some foil in there (what I did)


its a SICK light- who cares what brand it is!!:nana::nana::nana:


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## Noctis (Mar 29, 2010)

psychbeat said:


> yer gonna be stoked on it. the NB sst 50s have a super nice
> BIG hotspot and wide spill. mines got a nice buttery tint too!
> get sum AW 18650 2600mah and yer DONE!
> 
> ...


I don't care much for spill. I just want to be sure that I'm not still staring at a dark spot if I point my light at something 50 feet away.

Also the description is a tad confusing really. If there's a gap(which implies empty space), wouldn't you want MORE spring(to fill the gap) instead of trimming the spring down?


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## psychbeat (Mar 29, 2010)

no empty space, just that you cant screw the head 
onto the body all of the way down without trimming
the spring and it makes the "seam" where they join
a bit wider. its still watertight and everything- just
some people, myself included, like it to screw down 
flush. you'll understand when you get the host

50ft shouldnt be a problem at all!


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## kitelights (Mar 29, 2010)

mn_doggie said:


> *Re: You get what you pay for...or DO you?*
> 
> Definitely not when it comes to taxes and government.....
> 
> Someone once said, we're lucky we don't get the government we pay for....


Welcome to CPF. Wise words.

The first production Luxeon hand held flashlights were by ARC and for the first few years ARC and others were in the $90-180 range. I was in on the first 'group buy' offering that started 4sevens for the Fenix L1P for about $40. It was an incredible value, because of what it offered for the price compared to what else was available. The same question applied then. There sure were a lot of sales for that light because of the perceived value. I didn't think less of my ARC Luxeon, but it sure did alter the perceived value for many.

I would say that was probably the start of the reverse engineered imported lights.

SF had a history of quality lights that were marketed to professionals, not hobbyists and consumers. Back then, high powered LEDs were not bright enough for tactical lights. By the time SF did their R&D and started production, they had worthwhile output from LEDs for EDC use flashlights, but they were still not bright enough to be tactical. When SF released their lights, they had done homework to know that the lights would still work reliably 5-10 years down the road and offered such a guarantee with them. That comes with a price tag and a compromise in things like brightness by not overdriving LEDs.

As LEDs evolved, SF took advantage of the technology and now has extreme tactical lights in their LED line up, but their R&D cycle is probably 3 times as long as the imports. The imports *may* hold up and last - time will tell. Time has told us that we already know, the SFs will. For some, that's not important, but for others, it is. 

I only own one SF light that has since been upgraded with an LED drop in. I can't afford them now and when I could, there were other offerings available that met my needs at a cheaper price. I'm not a professional where my life my depends on a flashlight, but if I were, I think that knowing what I know about lights, I would have justified adding a SF or two to my EDC.

I'm going to stick my neck out with a statement ....... Most everyone believes that SF is the 'gold standard' b/c it's what everyone bases their perceived value on. 

...... if it's well made, attractive, feels good, brighter, more modes, etc. and costs less than a SF, it's a better value. Some have said that they can have 2, 3 or 4 lights that 'do more' for the same as a SF. So most must think that they are 'the standard.'

Flashlights aren't any different from others goods in that there are offerings of different quality. Some businesses offer goods that are marketed as high quality based on price, but they're just overpriced and some offer items that appear to be quality at budget prices, but they're just junk. An informed consumer will do research to prevent from buying either of those extremes. Most often, I believe that you do get what you pay for, because the others don't last.

Here on CPF, there's no excuse for getting taken advantage of. There's more information available here on flashlights than any other place. CPF is *the* gold standard for being informed. 

Remember that SF is produced for and marketed to professionals. We are a largely a hobbyist community, although we have a large number of professionals among us. I consider that those that rely on lights for work as professionals, not just LEOs, rescue, armed forces, etc. and their comments weigh more heavily on my opinions than do collectors and white wall enthusiasts.

It's great that we have so many offerings in flashlights now. Competition makes for more choices for the consumer. There are lots of professional goods that are overkill, or at least their cost can't be justified for the non professional. Flashlights are just one of those. 

I personally believe that SF is worth every penny, but I'm one whose needs can be met by other offerings at less expense. For the record, I think that 'junk lights' are a complete waste for any use other than for kids as a toy, but many here will argue that. They may have been lucky and had good service out of one and even luckier not to have had problems with the retailer. Just not worth it to me, but that's the same question as the OP but at a different price point.


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## recDNA (Mar 29, 2010)

SureAddicted said:


> As for quality, fit & finish, nothing comes close to SF...that is my opinion and it has been that way since the early 90's.
> As for lumens, again nothing beats SF. You have to realise, SF had a 500 lumen light on the market before the mainstream companies were in business, or when 50 lumens lights were the norm. So yeah, take that one to the bank.
> What this thread represents, is a way for the unenlightened or "noob" to justify that their $10 Junkfire is just as good if not equal to a SF.


 
"As for lumens, again nothing beats SF"

Simply not true. Check the 2 Sphere of Truth threads.


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## DimeRazorback (Mar 29, 2010)

Those lights took how many years to accompish that?

The the high output surefires have been around since the 90's...


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## Kiessling (Mar 29, 2010)

This thread:
https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/265936

... is a perfect example that you do get what you pay for. 
A very nice product on the first glance, but with possible fatal problems expreienced my more than one user on CPF already. And the solution? A warning on the package in the future.
With proper R&D and testing and testing again, this would most likely not have happened. 
Which is why I spend the extra buck.

I am a curious flashaholic and often buy out of impulse. In most "cheaper lights" I found more or less serious issues that should have taught me not to go that route again. Well, I am a slow learner. 
But the lessons remain. 

You get what you pay for. And even the diminishing returns when opting for the very best can be worth it. Not for all of us, not all the time, but there is definitely a difference that can be worth it. 
"Going cheap" is not the problem. Pretending the high cheap stuff is equal or better than the high end stuff is a problem though. It is misleading, false and possibly dangerous for those whose lives depend on their gear. 

bernie


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## Monocrom (Mar 29, 2010)

I own a variety of lights from a variety of companies. (Far too many lights, even for a flashaholic.)

I can see and feel the difference in quality between my Surefires and those from other companies. Not saying that every light I own without the Surefire name on it is junk. I have several quality lights that don't wear the Surefire name. I even EDC those lights at times.

But when it comes to bullet-proof level of reliability, it's tough to beat a Surefire. Some of my Streamlights come close, but just fall short. Bright & cheap is something a lot of companies can pull off. You could walk onto a street corner and make the aquaintenceship of a young lady who is pretty, and cheap. If you're looking for something that'll last, she's not going to be it. Same thing with lights. 

I own a ton of lights, I can compare quality of different brands with my nearly two dozen Surefire lights . . . And the difference in quality is obvious. If you think Surefires are over-priced, buy at least a few, try them out. If you just care about bright & cheap, your opinion won't change. If you care about quality, try them out. Still not convinced? Sell them on the MarketPlace. Surefires sell fast because there are plenty of folks who want them.


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## csshih (Mar 29, 2010)

It seems that one of the reasons "chinese" lights can't be as high quality as say, a surefire, would be because of the consumer mentality on where something is made.

Honestly, would you pay, say, 200$ for a "chinese" light which has nothing "special" about it? single mode.. last gen emitter.. but high quality? I believe the quality of surefire lights can be duplicated, but companies can't do so because of the bias against "inferior" chinese products (although.. this is indeed often true). There is only so much a machine shop can do, :cut knurls vs. pressed knurls, better temperature control in an anodizing tank, wider and more carefully cut threads, -- all this would result in much longer machine shop time, and would increase the per cost light by quite a bit. -- not worth it to the chinese company. As for the warranty, all overseas companies have a harder time with those things. 

That being said, I'm glad that surefire has paid so much attention to the machining details. They must have invested quite a bit of money on their equipment -- their product shows it!


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## SureAddicted (Mar 29, 2010)

recDNA said:


> "As for lumens, again nothing beats SF"
> 
> Simply not true. Check the 2 Sphere of Truth threads.




Dude, when did the M6 get released to the public?
How many lumens is the M6?
When the M6 was available, what was the average lumens of a flashlight?
When was the Beast released to the public?
How many lumens is the Beast?
When was the Dominator 10X released?
How many lumens is the 10X?
The hellfighter, when was that released?
These lights were out before major light manufacturers were in business. Absolutely nothing to prove, the others have a lot of catching up to do.



recDNA said:


> Assuming sf "quality" is better what exactly does that mean? I've read plenty of posts about broken sf. And what do sf owners do? Bore out the tube so I guess tube isn't perfect. Get a mcclicky so I guess clicky isn't ideal. Replace the p60 because the leds are a generation behind. And of course we'll need to replace the lens...so what's left?
> If we leave it exactly as is and it lasts 20 years do you really want to be 20 years behind the technology curve?




I'd be thinking about what I post next time, your bordering on the line of trolling.


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## DimeRazorback (Mar 30, 2010)

SureAddicted said:


> I'd be thinking about what I post next time, your bordering on the line of trolling.



Don't worry, he's just one of those who refuse to hear others opinions when it comes to SF. No first hand experience either, I believe.


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## SureAddicted (Mar 30, 2010)

lol Dime, I think you hit the nail on the head.


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## csshih (Mar 30, 2010)

SureAddicted said:


> Absolutely nothing to prove, the others have a lot of catching up to do.



not the best argument here -- the "others" have caught up long ago.....

simply for arguments sake, just because Surefire was light years ahead (pun intended  ) of the competition then, doesn't mean for anything now, does it?


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## SureAddicted (Mar 30, 2010)

csshih, It's not an argument, it's a fact. Maybe to you they have caught up, but not to me. My expectations are pretty high.


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## Noctis (Mar 30, 2010)

I can see the dilemma, it's a bit like buying a computer.

If you buy the "best"(highest spec'd, most expensive, etc.) model available at the time with a reliable lifetime of 10-20 years, and a newer, better, higher spec'd model comes out in 1-2 years...what then?

For a flashaholic hobbyist who will likely buy several lights, this can be a problem depending on how deep your wallet is. For professional who will use only a single flashlight and only cares that it works for its purpose and works reliably, buying one painfully expensive Surefire isn't a problem.

I figure the best compromise is what I already did, buy a quality host body(in my case, a Surefire 6P) and have several P60 dropins. If a newer and better LED comes out, I just saved up a couple of paychecks, and my inner flashaholic is feeling itchy, I just buy myself the latest LED dropin. I doubt the "average" flashlight enthusiast needs more than 1 custom pocketlight, and 1 custom torch(biggest size, most powerful batteries, maximum light emitted).


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## csshih (Mar 30, 2010)

ah -- I was replying to your reply to recDNA about output...

as you'll see above, I already stated that Surefire machining is top notch.


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## DimeRazorback (Mar 30, 2010)

SureAddicted said:


> lol Dime, I think you hit the nail on the head.



I do my best


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## Monocrom (Mar 30, 2010)

DimeRazorback said:


> Don't worry, he's just one of those who refuse to hear others opinions when it comes to SF. No first hand experience either, I believe.


 
Well, my post vanished when I hit "submit reply." (Reminds me of the good old days of CPF.) 

In brief, cause I'm not typing the whole thing over again, some folks don't get it. You bore out a Surefire body to make an already great light better. You toss in a Malkoff drop-in to make an already great light better. You don't start out with a cheap, crappy, platform.

Saleen doesn't use a KIA Rio as a platform for making their Super cars. Nope, they use a GT Ford Mustang for that. You don't improve on greatness by building, on crap.


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## angelofwar (Mar 30, 2010)

recDNA said:


> Assuming sf "quality" is better what exactly does that mean? I've read plenty of posts about broken sf. And what do sf owners do? Bore out the tube so I guess tube isn't perfect. Get a mcclicky so I guess clicky isn't ideal. Replace the p60 because the leds are a generation behind. And of course we'll need to replace the lens...so what's left?
> If we leave it exactly as is and it lasts 20 years do you really want to be 20 years behind the technology curve?


 
All mine are stock, and have no aftermarket parts, minus 3 malkoffs...they're doing something right...


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## american (Mar 30, 2010)

i like the eagle tac more then the surefires, even made in china they are very well built and very bright with a lifetime warranty


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## DimeRazorback (Mar 30, 2010)

Monocrom & angelofwar have made excellent posts.

I think I will also add a few cents of my own.

Of my current Surefire lights, only three are modded, in the form of HA-BK coating on my Z2 & Z3, and my C2 being bored.
The Z2 sports a Surefire P61, the Z3 a Malkoff M60W.

My two M6's run Lumensfactory bulbs and rechargeable batteries, however I prefer the Surefire bulbs.

My C2 runs a Malkoff M30 & 18650 cell.

All of my other surefires are completely stock.

I even purchased a KX2C head to use on my 2x123 McClicky Pak...

I have a 6P with a stock P60 bulb in it, and that produces more than enough light for most general duties.

I think people are just getting carried away with the whole "the more lumens, the better" mind set. 
Surefires are tools, and are designed with a specific purpose.

The P60 was never designed to throw light 150m down a range.
The MN21 was never designed to be used to work under a kitchen sink.

:shrug:


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## KuKu427 (Mar 30, 2010)

I just bought my first SF not too long ago, awaiting delivery. 
I see threads like this and I have to wonder. What is it that SF is doing or did that is creating all these loyal fans? I mean I see other manufacturers have their own followers but none of are so enthusiastic. 
Is it the user interface? Customer service? Build quality? Reliability? 
Not trying to start any arguments. Just trying to understand the reasoning here.


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## nbp (Mar 30, 2010)

Is this thread still open? :sigh:

It's all been said before. People like what they like. Get over it. 

Fact: Surefires are expensive. Fact: To some, Including me, they're worth it. Fact: To some they're not. 

Nothing else need be said.


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## KuKu427 (Mar 30, 2010)

nbp said:


> Is this thread still open? :sigh:
> It's all been said before. People like what they like. Get over it.
> Fact: Surefires are expensive. Fact: To some, Including me, they're worth it. Fact: To some they're not.
> Nothing else need be said.


Yup it is. 

Of course people like what they like. What I want to know is why SF fans are more adamant about their support than others. 

Was a particular incident that sealed the deal for them? Or did they open the box and fell in love with the sheen on the anno? Did they love the utter simplicity of the design? Can someone one telling me why without resorting to "it just is"?


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## csshih (Mar 30, 2010)

As a small time struggling manufacturer once asked me, but why?

Think about it this way-- perhaps this thread may somehow be stumbled upon by a manufacturer seeking to improve their products to a surefire level.... How can they do that? 
Quality can't be measured, how is a sf above all the rest, is it the aluminium? Anodizing? Large threads? Optics? Tailcap? American made-ness? Orings? 
Can anyone go into detail ?


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## DimeRazorback (Mar 30, 2010)

KuKu427 said:


> Is it the user interface? Customer service? Build quality? Reliability?



All of the above, and more! 

I don't think people realise how many years of development have gone into Surefires lights.

This is one of the reason they have so many delays.

Every little detail is stringently analyzed.


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## KuKu427 (Mar 30, 2010)

Care to elaborate? 

What about the UI do you like? 

How is their customer service so attractive?

How is the build quality better? Super tough anno? Hammer in nails durability? 

Had it for 10 years and never failed to light up once reliability?

Which details are you referring to? I don't care about the costs or the delays. I know first hand how that could happen.


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## DimeRazorback (Mar 30, 2010)

KuKu427 said:


> Care to elaborate?
> 
> What about the UI do you like?
> 
> ...



Well they have several UI's.
All of which are fool proof.
Single mode momentary with constant on via twisting is extremely valuable in high stress situations. Plus there are a very small number of physical things that can cause failure... basically fail safe.
The 2-stage twisty UI is great for EDC lights. Push a little for low, further for high. Same with the twisting. Twist a little for constant low, twist further for constant high or simply press the tailcap for momentary high, when on constant low.

I previously threw an A2 aviator into the air and onto concrete, causing the lamp to explode and destroy the reflector and lens. I sent it to SF and had it returned with a brand new head, lamp assembly & 2 fresh batteries (was sent to them without batteries) all up it cost me $15 for postage to them. Returned for free via Express Courier. No questions asked.

The ano is super tough! Very hard to damage with normal use. I had an Olight in my pocket for one week. It basically has no ano left on the tailcap... my E2DL did the exact same duty for over 2 months and looks brand new.

I have thrown my LX2 10m into the air (it was raining extremely heavy at the time), and onto concrete, the only damage was a few small dings on the bezel edge. It sat there in a pool of water for a while, and there was not water intrusion.

I have never had any thread issues with my SF's.
They have all worked 100% out of the box.

I think you will find people don't go to in depth with the positives of their surefires as they would be typing all night long


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## KuKu427 (Mar 30, 2010)

DimeRazorback said:


> Well they have several UI's.
> All of which are fool proof.
> Single mode momentary with constant on via twisting is extremely valuable in high stress situations. Plus there are a very small number of physical things that can cause failure... basically fail safe.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the input DimeRazorback.

OK, So how is that UI better than a forward clicky? Because you don't accidentally press too hard and have it latch on when you only wanted a brief flash? What about the what some people have told me about SF switches failing like any other switch? Isolated incidents?

Wow... that's pretty kick xxx service. And it would go a long way to explaining the pricing on their lights. They didn't ask you how it was damaged or did you tell them? Was it thrown through normal use or were you testing? 

Thrown into the air with only small dings? How high was it? As I understand, surface treatment is only as tough as the underlying metal in terms of impact. Do they do something to the Al before coating?

EDIT: I see your point about the anno and about the typing all night. But if they did maybe the number of "Why SF" threads would decrease because they would finally know why.


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## Noctis (Mar 30, 2010)

DimeRazorback said:


> Monocrom & angelofwar have made excellent posts.
> 
> I think I will also add a few cents of my own.
> 
> ...


To be honest, I doubt anyone aside from the military or LEO needs 150m of throw(hunters maybe, but why they would choose to hunt at night I don't know).
And anyone who needs a light to work under a kitchen sink likely isn't a flashaholic.

I'm fully aware that aiming for 400+ lumens in a POCKETlight is more than a little overkill, but I doubt anyone ever accused someone with a hobby of going too far(unless they spend more money than they can afford, or the missus asks you why you won't buy her more jewelery).

I mean, I doubt I'd "need" my pocketknife to be as sharp as a surgical scalpel, but I made it that sharp anyways.

This is like some men and their ridiculously expensive and powerful sports cars. You don't NEED a car that goes from 0 to 80 in however many seconds or to reach a top speed of 160 mph, but people will do it anyway.

Plus you know what women say about boys and their toys.


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## kramer5150 (Mar 30, 2010)

KuKu427 said:


> I just bought my first SF not too long ago, awaiting delivery.
> I see threads like this and I have to wonder. What is it that SF is doing or did that is creating all these loyal fans? I mean I see other manufacturers have their own followers but none of are so enthusiastic.
> Is it the user interface? Customer service? Build quality? Reliability?
> Not trying to start any arguments. Just trying to understand the reasoning here.



For me the involvement in threads like this stems from the desire to help others better understand the strengths and weaknesses of a product or brand.

I have always said Surefires are good at what they do well and bad at what they don't. I try to present their strengths, so others can better understand what they are paying for... and make educated decisions on where to spend their $$. I try not to come across as over-fanatic. But its hard not to be biased, after having owned a few.

I think this is just a natural reaction. Humans are emotional, passionate creatures. To be openly fanatic about "something" in ones life is perfectly human.

What I don't understand is the desire of some members to attack others for having different values and preferences... that's usually when threads get locked.


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## DimeRazorback (Mar 30, 2010)

KuKu427 said:


> Thanks for the input DimeRazorback.
> 
> OK, So how is that UI better than a forward clicky? Because you don't accidentally press too hard and have it latch on when you only wanted a brief flash? What about the what some people have told me about SF switches failing like any other switch? Isolated incidents?
> 
> ...



I do like forward clickies, my McGizmos use them 
However, I am never as confident in a forward clicky as I am a pressure switch or twisty. Every mechanical objective increases failure rates. Therefore, a clicky switch, to me is more risky than a twisty. (good pun, I know )
I have only heard of one surefire twisty failing, out of the millions out there, that is pretty darn good.
Surefire clickies I am sure have more complaints of failure, like I said, more mechanical parts increase failure risk. With that said, I have used SF clickies with no dramas, and they are still working strong. The Fenix, Quarks, Jetbeams & Olights lights that I have owned have all had small or rather major issues due to their clickies. The only clickies I trust (as of now, as I have not found any others) are the McClicky & the Surefire clickies.


With regards to my A2, I told them that I threw it in the air, and that it fell from a height and the result, and they sent me a reference number. I admitted that it was my fault and was simply asking for their advice on where to get a new reflector. 
They basically didn't care how it happened, just that the lamp had exploded!

The thing is, as soon as someone says anything pro surefire, someone derails the thread (and vice versa) so it is very hard to convey good impressions of surefires.
The "Why SF" threads will always exist. As proven in this thread, even people with no idea what they are talking about give their negative opinions on SF... even without ever using one. So as soon as a thread is started, it is shut down by anti-SF people.


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## KuKu427 (Mar 30, 2010)

kramer5150 said:


> For me the involvement in threads like this stems from the desire to help others better understand the strengths and weaknesses of a product or brand.
> I have always said Surefires are good at what they do well and bad at what they don't. I try to present their strengths, so others can better understand what they are paying for... and make educated decisions on where to spend their $$. I try not to come across as over-fanatic. But its hard not to be biased, after having owned a few.
> I think this is just a natural reaction. Humans are emotional, passionate creatures. To be openly fanatic about "something" in ones life is perfectly human.


Thank you Kramer. Your post does offer a lot of insight into SF's fan-base. It's only natural to be biased towards a product you like. I just wish it can be put into words and communicated to one who doesn't feel the same way.


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## DimeRazorback (Mar 30, 2010)

kramer5150 said:


> Humans are emotional, passionate creatures.



Ding ding ding!!!

That is it in a nutshell.

Someone can say something, in pure innocence, and another person will take direct offense... it is hard to be neutral all the time, and/or for others to appreciate that neutral point of view


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## KuKu427 (Mar 30, 2010)

DimeRazorback said:


> I do like forward clickies, my McGizmos use them
> However, I am never as confident in a forward clicky as I am a pressure switch or twisty. Every mechanical objective increases failure rates. Therefore, a clicky switch, to me is more risky than a twisty. (good pun, I know )
> I have only heard of one surefire twisty failing, out of the millions out there, that is pretty darn good.
> Surefire clickies I am sure have more complaints of failure, like I said, more mechanical parts increase failure risk. With that said, I have used SF clickies with no dramas, and they are still working strong. The Fenix, Quarks, Jetbeams & Olights lights that I have owned have all had small or rather major issues due to their clickies. The only clickies I trust (as of now, as I have not found any others) are the McClicky & the Surefire clickies.
> ...


IC, I gather that the parts in the SF twist-constant on mechanism are larger and therefore more inherently robust than the parts in a regular forward clicky?

SF's CS really is hard to beat. 

It may very be true that there will always be Why SF threads. But I'm here to learn and I hope more people are willing to have a civilized discussion about this. 

I'd have to admit when I looked at SF's specs I wasn't too impressed. But the large number of supporters persuaded me to give them a try. I guess SF's strengths lie somewhere other than raw numbers and are of a qualitative nature.


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## kramer5150 (Mar 30, 2010)

KuKu427 said:


> IC, I gather that the parts in the SF twist-constant on mechanism are larger and therefore more inherently robust than the parts in a regular forward clicky?



https://www.candlepowerforums.com/posts/3287012&postcount=15


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## CarlR (Mar 30, 2010)

Well the original question was whether you really get what you pay for.

In the age of the internet, you do get what you pay for for any product that has been around for a while. If a Surefire was really not worth the price, we wouldn't have a debate, we would have 90% of the people in agreement, not buying them, and SF would lower the cost and/or go out of business.

Likewise if a Fenix was not worth it's $50, 90% of the people on CPF would be saying so.

There are so many people using these lights that if any of them were truly bad - i.e. you would not get what you pay for - the consensus would quickly spread and nobody would buy them, forcing the company to change. I'm pretty new on this scene but I would guess there are manufacturers that have had this happen to them.

What everyone has discovered regarding Surefire is that while another person's idea of "getting what you paid for" may not match your own, as long as enough people they are worth it, the product will happily live on. 

And you can use this argument to end pretty much any product vs. product debate. Although I bet it doesn't end this one.

CarlR



(For what it's worth I don't own a SF but based on this thread I think I need to pick one up and see what all the fuss is about...)


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## Noctis (Mar 30, 2010)

Hmm, then I suppose I got exactly what I paid for when I bought the Streamlight TL-2.

On another topic, I just found out that the *** who's been depriving me of sleep with his loud bass and horrible music for the past 2 months(interestingly, there are 5 neighbors that should've heard it before I did and never called the cops) was non other than my dear older brother. I figure the next time he blasts his damn music at 12:30 am I'd wait til 3 in the morning and shine 400+ lumens of light into his bedroom jalousie window from outside. The windows are fairly dirty with orange peel texture on one side, so I'm kind of curious as to whether or not the light will be enough to give him one hell of a nasty surprise.


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## carrot (Mar 30, 2010)

Let me just say, if Surefires weren't already such good lights we wouldn't spend hundreds of dollars upgrading them.

And anyone who doesn't think Surefires are great clearly have not used them long enough. 

DimeRazorback and SureAddicted and Kramer and CarlR have all made excellent points and I would be doing a disservice trying to paraphrase them. Additionally I already said most of what I wanted to say right at the beginning.

I think we can all agree that Surefire is a cut above in quality and engineering and design than pretty much all the other popular manufacturers out there. Doesn't mean they have the best output, which is a moving target. The quality is there and that's what matters.


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## march.brown (Mar 30, 2010)

Unfortunately I have never even seen a Surefire torch , but if they are perhaps the best torches in the World , why do people put non-Surefire parts in them ? ... Surely if they are the very best , then there should be no need to alter them.

Rolls Royces and Bentleys are pretty well the best quality cars in the World but I haven't heard of anyone changing their headlamps or engines (or any other bits) for some other manufacturers products.

Rolex are supposed to be one of the best watches in the world , so why are my Seikos better ? ... Seiko stainless steel doesn't scratch as badly as Rolex and my Seiko has only lost one second in the last two or three years ... For the cost of a service on a Rolex watch , I can buy another of my superbly accurate Seiko watches.

So there are cases where you may not get what you pay for.

If I could justify the high prices of the Surefires perhaps I would buy one , But I can't justify it ... And I couldn't afford one anyway.

In the meantime , I will stick with what I can afford.
.


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## jhc37013 (Mar 30, 2010)

march.brown said:


> Unfortunately I have never even seen a Surefire torch , but if they are perhaps the best torches in the World , why do people put non-Surefire parts in them ? ... Surely if they are the very best , then there should be no need to alter them.



If you look above at post #97 *Monocrom* already gave a pretty good explanation on this. Many people I know who buy really nice cars and can afford it put aftermarket parts on it when the regular non- car enthusiast would probably never think of it. Also many of the people who put after market parts in a Surefire are flashaholics and may have many Surefire's to mod. Like Monocrom said the Surefire provides such a great platform and in with the flashaholics who like to mod why wouldn't they start with the best host or platform if they can afford it.

I own several Surefire's and really have had nothing "upgraded" maybe except a custom tailcap on a E1B that is more to my liking then the factory tailcap.


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## nbp (Mar 30, 2010)

The last few posts esp 107 from DR and 110 from Kramer have been very objective and fact based. If these sorts of threads could remain that way, I doubt they'd get locked, and they'd actually be useful. Unfortunately they often turn to name calling and insults. 

It is refreshing to see the conversation take a turn toward civility and objectvity. I hope it stays that way. 

And I agree with those who recommend trying a certain light before bashing it. Buy a surefire. See if it's worth it to you. If it is, great! If not, sell it and don't buy any more. Otherwise trying to convince someone who prefers cheaper lights that the expensive one is worth it is like trying to tell someone who hates mustard that they should like mustard. How can you convince them? You can't. They don't like it. Further pressure will only lead to fights. 

Anyways, stick to facts and be nice is what I'm getting at.


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## rokspydr (Mar 30, 2010)

For me the appeal of surfire over others is consistency. You never hear people who buy a surefire say( hope I don't loose the tint lottery). They may not have te latest emmiters but they do have a consistently good quality product. In the grand scheme of flashlights whats so great if you have a boat load of lumens but no reliability. I would rather have a light that I know will work when I need it and provide light. 

just my .02c


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## the.Mtn.Man (Mar 30, 2010)

CarlR said:


> Well the original question was whether you really get what you pay for.
> 
> In the age of the internet, you do get what you pay for for any product that has been around for a while. If a Surefire was really not worth the price, we wouldn't have a debate, we would have 90% of the people in agreement, not buying them, and SF would lower the cost and/or go out of business.
> 
> Likewise if a Fenix was not worth it's $50, 90% of the people on CPF would be saying so.


I think you greatly overestimate the influence of CPF. You lot have been bashing Maglite for years, but last I checked they're still going strong.


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## the.Mtn.Man (Mar 30, 2010)

carrot said:


> Let me just say, if Surefires weren't already such good lights we wouldn't spend hundreds of dollars upgrading them.


I fail to see how this is a logical statement.


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## KuKu427 (Mar 30, 2010)

the.Mtn.Man said:


> I think you greatly overestimate the influence of CPF. You lot have been bashing Maglite for years, but last I checked they're still going strong.




BTW, Got my E1e today. Great clicky... dim enough to remind me why I only have LED lights...


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## uknewbie (Mar 30, 2010)

I love how when people use cars as analogies, the benchmark for quality several times has been Ford or Chevrolet! I think people should look closer when considering what is or is not quality. Try an Audi, Lexus or Bentley and re-consider your Ford.

I am sure that Surefire are very high quality. The question is if they are better than everyone else as they seem to claim and if they are worth the money.

I have noticed the only time people accuse others of "product bashing" it is when talking about Surefire or Maglite.

As far as I am concerned the whole point in a forum is for discussion, good or bad. If someone thinks a product is over-priced, over-valued or poor quality, they are just as entitled to say as if they thought it was good, otherwise, what's the point?


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## jhc37013 (Mar 30, 2010)

The analogies I feel is it's like if you have a non-CPF friend or family member you try to convince that buying a $50-$70 Quark or Fenix is well worth the money. Well that is how I feel sometimes when trying to convince a CPF member who has never had a chance to try a Surefire that $130-$200 is worth it.


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## Greg G (Mar 30, 2010)

rokspydr said:


> For me the appeal of surfire over others is consistency. You never hear people who buy a surefire say( hope I don't loose the tint lottery).
> 
> just my .02c


 

I lost the tint lottery with them. It was the only foreign made part in the light too (to my knowledge), a Seoul P4. Bluest LED I have seen to date. 

It's not even close to being usable. You know how our eyes adjust to specific LED's when using them alone? This light is creepy blue even when it's the only light I'm looking at. Put it up next to a WC XR-E and the WC looks very white compared to it.

The Surefire lights have a lot going for them. There's a lot about their lights that is great. But..........I think many hop on their bandwagon simply because Surefire is popular with the military, which makes it fashionable. It's like having Oakley glasses and an M4 Colt carbine (which I have a couple of  ).


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## was.lost.but.now.found (Mar 30, 2010)

Greg G said:


> It's like having Oakley glasses and an M4 Colt carbine (which I have a couple of  ).


 
If we're talking about sport Oakley's as opposed to the fashion lines, I'm going to have to disagree with you. What kind do you have? Because I'm on my 3rd pair over the course of 10 years and I am convinced they are hands down better than 99% of the junk out there.

I can count the ways they are superior:

1. Customer service
2. Quality control
3. Optical lens quality
4. Frame strength
5. Attention to detail
6. Fit and finish
7. Light weight

Need I go on? Do we see any parallels with Surefire?


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## the.Mtn.Man (Mar 30, 2010)

jhc37013 said:


> The analogies I feel is it's like if you have a non-CPF friend or family member you try to convince that buying a $50-$70 Quark or Fenix is well worth the money. Well that is how I feel sometimes when trying to convince a CPF member who has never had a chance to try a Surefire that $130-$200 is worth it.


And honestly, I can see the non-flashaholic's point. "I bought this flashlight for a buck at the hardware store. Push the button on this end, light comes out of that end. What more do I need?"

Trust me, I've had those discussions with my wife, and in the end my only response is to grin sheepishly and reply, "What can I say, I love gadgets." Then she'll smile and say, "And I'm glad your flashlights make you happy, but I have no need for one and no desire to own one."

Can't argue with that.


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## Greg G (Mar 30, 2010)

was.lost.but.now.found said:


> If we're talking about sport Oakley's as opposed to the fashion lines, I'm going to have to disagree with you. What kind do you have? Because I'm on my 3rd pair over the course of 10 years and I am convinced they are hands down better than 99% of the junk out there.


 

Are Oakley's better than Gucci? Yeah, sure, but that's not what I was saying. 

There are less popular brands of glasses out in the field that are every bit as good, and some think are even better, than Oakleys. ESS, Revision Sawfly, etc. I can't walk into a store and buy those, but I can the Oakleys because they are more *fashionable/popular* with the masses. And why do you think Oakley lenses cost more than ESS? It's simply the name.

Get it?


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## march.brown (Mar 30, 2010)

was.lost.but.now.found said:


> If we're talking about sport Oakley's as opposed to the fashion lines, I'm going to have to disagree with you. What kind do you have? *Because I'm on my 3rd pair over the course of 10 years* and I am convinced they are hands down better than 99% of the junk out there.


My cheap sunglasses are as bad as that too !

It's difficult to get a cheap pair of sunglasses to last much over about five years , even with careful cleaning.

So in this case it looks as though the manufacturer doesn't really matter unless you really want the designer look.

My more modestly priced torches will last forever ... There isn't anything to go wrong with a torch is there ? ... The body is a metal tube , so nothing to go wrong there ... If the drop-in fails , then for £8 or so I can get another Solarforce one ... If the tailcap fails , then I can get another ... If the lens gets scratched , I can get another ... Hence , my torches will last forever.

Some people replace perfectly good components anyway , just for the fun of it.

I'm 72 now and still have my Grandfathers favourite hammer , handed down to me by my Father ... It has had six new handles and three new heads but is still as good as when it was brand new.


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## kitelights (Mar 30, 2010)

the.Mtn.Man said:


> I think you greatly overestimate the influence of CPF. You lot have been bashing Maglite for years, but last I checked they're still going strong.


I don't believe that his statement about the internet referred to CPF, but does include CPF as part of the internet. 

The point he's making is the information that is readily available via the internet would eventually weed out companies and products where 'you don't get what you paid for.' With the internet, it simply happens faster.

It is a common practice for me to check out products and companies before doing business with them.

As to your statement regarding CPF, just like your statement about SF's sales, you are quite wrong. There are several businesses that started, continue to exist, or have ended due to the direct influence of CPF.


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## was.lost.but.now.found (Mar 30, 2010)

Please don't misinterpret my post; honestly I've had cheap sunglasses before and it's tough to get them to last a year let alone three or even five. but that's entirely dependant on the user - sunglasses do not scratch themselves, and I don't rate the quality of my shades by the level of scratch resistance.

Regarding ESS, who admittedly I'd not heard of before, they seem nice, but offer few if any products with polarization which is a deal killer for me.

But that's not the point, the point I'm making, and to try and get this back on topic, is some companies have been in it from the beginning. These companies continue to plow the way and be the innovators which everyone else wants to copy. They may not have the hyper-latest stuff, but be sure when they do come out with a product it's going to be ready for duty.


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## the.Mtn.Man (Mar 30, 2010)

kitelights said:


> There are several businesses that started, continue to exist, or have ended due to the direct influence of CPF.


Niche companies that only exist (or existed) to serve the enthusiast. The big companies don't seem to pay us much mind. Which was precisely my point.


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## SuPpAvIlLiN (Mar 30, 2010)

I was also a VERY Firm believer in you get what you pay for ONLY made in USA flashlights. So after owning a surefire that I paid big $$ for (although I do LOVE it) I went for an imported "made in china Tiablo ACE-G. Now I never! buy things made in china, but I did this time an I absolutely LOVE this flashlight. 700 lumens reliable well made awsome light. So from one USA lover to another, when are own USA company's are robbing us sometime your better off over seas. Never thought i'd say that.


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## Vesper (Mar 30, 2010)

If things were screwed for a while by an earthquake or similar, I would trust my Surefires without question. The only other light I own that I feel the same about is my Malkoff drop-in/MD2. I have tons of less expensive / lower quality lights and they're fun to own, but at least one of your go-to lights should be able to take a trip to hell and back. With Surefire lights you definitely do pay, and you definitely do get. Always fun to joust over such topics though.


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## recDNA (Mar 30, 2010)

If Fenix and Olight were sold in American Hardware stores I don't think Maglite would be long for this world. Why Fenix and Olight are NOT sold at Home Depot and Lowes is the real question IMO.

I also wonder how many Surefire fans here would have ever been Surefire fans if the Surefire were manufactured in Asia...or even Mexico.


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## psychbeat (Mar 30, 2010)

this is funny-
why are people trying to talk "sense" into
those of us who "really really like"
surefires...
who cares?
I likes em
:nana::nana::nana::nana:


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## carrot (Mar 30, 2010)

recDNA said:


> If Fenix and Olight were sold in American Hardware stores I don't think Maglite would be long for this world. Why Fenix and Olight are NOT sold at Home Depot and Lowes is the real question IMO.
> 
> I also wonder how many Surefire fans here would have ever been Surefire fans if the Surefire were manufactured in Asia...or even Mexico.


Find me something as good as Surefire made outside of the USA and I'll let you know how I feel about it.

I agree that 4sevens, Fenix, and Olight need to find their way into big box stores.


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## gswitter (Mar 30, 2010)

A few Fenix lights _are_ in the local Fry's Electronics, and they don't appear to be flying off the shelves.

I think we tend to overestimate the number of regular folk who are willing to spend even $40-$60 on a flashlight.


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## recDNA (Mar 30, 2010)

That's WHY I said Lowes and Home Depot! They can buy so much of a product that they can negotiate better prices. If a Maglite costs $20 and a Fenix $30 and the customer can try each Fenix WILL sell. There will always be a market for $2 flashlights too - but IMO, from what I've read, you get more for your $2 at DX than at Home Depot.


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## gswitter (Mar 30, 2010)

Special sales aside, Mags are no cheaper at my local Home Depot and Lowes than anywhere else.

And I don't think it's an issue of trying them. I don't believe Fry's has any restrictions on returns of lights, and half the boxes on the shelf of my local Fry's are either open or returned/re-sealed.


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## was.lost.but.now.found (Mar 30, 2010)

recDNA said:


> That's WHY I said Lowes and Home Depot! They can buy so much of a product that they can negotiate better prices. If a Maglite costs $20 and a Fenix $30 and the customer can try each Fenix WILL sell. There will always be a market for $2 flashlights too - but IMO, from what I've read, you get more for your $2 at DX than at Home Depot.


 
You forget that the internet sales channel has a lower cost than B&M retail; my guess is prices might even go up in retail stores.


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## jhc37013 (Mar 30, 2010)

recDNA said:


> I also wonder how many Surefire fans here would have ever been Surefire fans if the Surefire were manufactured in Asia...or even Mexico.



This makes no sense to me I love my Jetbeam light's that are made in China they are close to Surefire quality but still not as good and Jetbeam is certainly not cheap in price. So I still like Surefire better and therefore carry and praise them a bit more, I am a flashlight enthusiast I like the best made lights and if Jetbeam was better quality than Surefire then I would say Jetbeam is better and that would be my favorite. Until a manufacture can one up Surefire they will continue to be the best to me and being made in the US is just a bonus.

You really have to own one because no another brand I have feels as good in the hand the finish feels so good and the knurling is perfect. I don't see what there is to argue about and as a flashlight collector I would think you would want to give one a try even if it means passing on a few other lights that cost $50-$60 if you can't afford to buy them all.


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## angelofwar (Mar 30, 2010)

"You get what you pay for..or DO you?"

Yes...and will from here on out. I didn't once, but am looking to get some of my money back by getting rid of my non-SF lights. I don't use them cause the military uses them either...I use them cause I am in the military, and got tired of crap breaking/failing to function on me...



Edit: Glad this one is staying civilised...good on us!...LOL!


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## recDNA (Mar 30, 2010)

was.lost.but.now.found said:


> You forget that the internet sales channel has a lower cost than B&M retail; my guess is prices might even go up in retail stores.


 
Most people won't spend extra money for something unless they see and feel how much better it is. Let people play with quality flashlights at places they actually visit often, like Home Depot or Lowes or even Target or Walmart. Quality sells IF and only IF the purchaser can SEE the quality. Shine a Fenix and a Mag - a LOT of people will buy the Fenix IMO. The thing is the Fenix can't cost 5X more. That's why the big stores need to get together with the Chinese manufactures (Walmart may have a leg up there) and work out a deal for some flashlights Americans will buy.

Most guys really DO like nice flashlights. (The only women I know who do I've "met" here) All of my friends wanted to know where to buy some of mine until I confessed to how much they cost. My best friend once exclaimed, "I'd spend $50 for that flashlight!" "That looks brighter than my Maglite." It was my TK40. When I told him it cost 3X that much he said that I'm nuts. Of course he's right. 

You know the only one a couple of my friends actually BOUGHT? EZCR2! That was the one that impressed them most. I think that's funny. I mean they're paying retail for CR2 batteries! The EZCR2 is nice but of all my flashlights they liked that the best? Even a waiter at my favorite restaurant asked me where to buy one when I used it to find my wife's glove under the table.


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## the.Mtn.Man (Mar 30, 2010)

recDNA said:


> Quality sells IF and only IF the purchaser can SEE the quality. Shine a Fenix and a Mag - a LOT of people will buy the Fenix IMO.


For the average consumer, the only thing they care about is 1) does it light up whatever I point it at; and 2) is it cheap. To these folks, spending top dollar on a flashlight doesn't make sense because it's just a flashlight. "Why do I need to spend $50 on a flashlight when this $5 flashlight lights up my tool shed just as well?"

The only way Fenix, Quark, Nitecore, etc. will get a leg up in retail shops is if they are priced competitively, and to the average Joe that means Maglite prices. A Fenix LD20 for $19.99? I'd love to see the day.


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## Noctis (Mar 30, 2010)

the.Mtn.Man said:


> For the average consumer, the only thing they care about is 1) does it light up whatever I point it at; and 2) is it cheap. To these folks, spending top dollar on a flashlight doesn't make sense because it's just a flashlight. "Why do I need to spend $50 on a flashlight when this $5 flashlight lights up my tool shed just as well?"
> 
> The only way Fenix, Quark, Nitecore, etc. will get a leg up in retail shops is if they are priced competitively, and to the average Joe that means Maglite prices. A Fenix LD20 for $19.99? I'd love to see the day.


True enough. It's why my aunt wanted to buy those two-pack Costco LED lights. She wasn't the least bit interested(or even knew how bright) in the 160 lumens output(supposedly), just that they were cheap.

Personally, I think Maglites fell out of favor after police brutality finally banned officers from using the things. On the other hand, everyone should know for sure now that those things are made rugged and durable :devil:

Some of us take for granted that you can crack someone in the skull with a flashlight and still have it work afterwards.


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## psychbeat (Mar 30, 2010)

hmmm....
sounds like a race to the bottom. not 
good for innovation, just cost cutting so
you can sell them to walmart at the wholesale
price they demand. 
Its got to be tough to find the right niche for all of these 
"middle end" light manufacturers.
and probably pretty tough to get GOVT 
contracts too.
that said; I do LOVE my quarkmini123 which I would 
consider "middle end", but its no where near
as nice as a Surefire fit and finish wise (mode skip, green etc)
I use my lights ALOT and I KNOW my EG "Surefire" is
going to light up 
my quark PROBABLY will


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## Anak (Mar 30, 2010)

A perspective from a relative newbie:

I have bought five Surefire flashlights. The first one I purchased new, the other four were purchased used through CPF Marketplace.

I view Surefire flashlights as a safe bet. Yes they cost more, but I am not likely to regret my purchase. Furthermore, I can buy them used and expect them to perform well. Even further, if circumstances were to dictate that I needed to sell them for the sake of cashflow I could expect to recoup whatever I paid for those which I purchased used, i.e. they hold their value. They are a known quantity with a stellar reputation.

If I may add a comparison which has a long historical track record: Disston saws. These are also a tool upon which livelihoods once depended (up until the popular advent of the 7 1/4" circular saw) and which still are highly regarded by those who appreciate handtools. The Disston D8 would be comparable to the Surefire 6P, while models like the Disston no set Acme 120 would compare to perhaps the Surefire Porcupine. In their heyday, Disston had plenty of competition: Atkins, Robertson Bros, Bishop, Spear & Jackson. Arguably the competitors produced saws of equal and perhaps even better quality. Disston built a very solid brand though, and they were the established standard.

Although handsaws are virtually obsolete today, you will find that Disston saws still sell well on ebay. They probably haven't held their value relative to inflation (although a mint Acme 120 would probably now prove to have been a good investment), but they are more likely to get bid up to higher prices than are the products of their contemporaries. They are sought out and highly valued by those who appreciate such things. Their competitors are typically only sought by collectors at this point. Disston still has name recognition although they have been gone for decades.

I think Surefire lights have a better chance of being valued 100 years from now than do Fenix, 4 Sevens, Eagletac...


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## recDNA (Mar 30, 2010)

CarlR said:


> Well the original question was whether you really get what you pay for.
> 
> In the age of the internet, you do get what you pay for for any product that has been around for a while. If a Surefire was really not worth the price, we wouldn't have a debate, we would have 90% of the people in agreement, not buying them, and SF would lower the cost and/or go out of business.
> 
> ...


 
"In the age of the internet, you do get what you pay for for any product that has been around for a while. If a Surefire was really not worth the price, we wouldn't have a debate, we would have 90% of the people in agreement, not buying them"

So far I agree with you and 90% of people DON'T buy Surefires. The thing is at those prices Surefire isn't TRYING to sell to 90% of the people anyway. 

I've yet to hear a good argument that explains why (If Surefire is so good) many Surefire buyers cannot wait to replace the LED with a brighter drop in, bore the tube to fit a better energy source, and add a McClicky to get a better clicky IF the Surefire is so good as is? I mean when they're done all that's left of the Surefire is the name on the modified tube?

As far as "worth" the price. You know what? If you enjoy the tool and trust it and take pride in it of course it IS worth the money to YOU but may not be worth the money to ME. Does that make sense? It's like watches. Some argue that a Seiko is better than a Patek Phillippe because the Seiko keeps time more accurately...and it does. Which will be more valuable in 100 years? Well, we know the Patek will but if my life depended upon the correct time I'd want the Seiko.

By the way, I don't see this as derailing the thread nor disrespectful of Surefire collectors. This is a discussion. It's a darn good one. We have different points of view yet I see no name calling nor profanity, just some folks who are passionate about our hobby.


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## ElectronGuru (Mar 30, 2010)

recDNA said:


> I've yet to hear a good argument that explains why (If Surefire is so good) many Surefire buyers cannot wait to replace the LED with a brighter drop in, bore the tube to fit a better energy source, and add a McClicky to get a better clicky IF the Surefire is so good as is?



Continuing the automotive analogy, I like to think of it like tuning. Like taking a $100K car and making it into a $200K car. The kind of componentry this includes simply isn't available in a turnkey setup. And since you're choosing a platform, why not make it a good one?:


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## fizzwinkus (Mar 30, 2010)

Noctis said:


> This is like some men and their ridiculously expensive and powerful sports cars. You don't NEED a car that goes from 0 to 80 in however many seconds or to reach a top speed of 160 mph, but people will do it anyway.
> 
> Plus you know what women say about boys and their toys.



it's not how fast you can go from 0-60 that matters, but how fast you can go from 60 to 90. it's maneuverability at speed when you need it. and i'm not saying you're wrong at all, but it's an example of how quality or performance can be overlooked in high end gear when comparing.

i imagine it's this way for a lot of high end things. they're performance in basic situations are unimpressive, but all the little details really show in fringe environments.

and i absolutely love my toys


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## recDNA (Mar 30, 2010)

Ya, but there is more left of the car than the nameplate! I mean if you replace the clicky and the drop in and bore the tube what's left of the Surefire?


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## CarlR (Mar 30, 2010)

recDNA said:


> I've yet to hear a good argument that explains why (If Surefire is so good) many Surefire buyers cannot wait to replace the LED with a brighter drop in, bore the tube to fit a better energy source, and add a McClicky to get a better clicky IF the Surefire is so good as is? I mean when they're done all that's left of the Surefire is the name on the modified tube?


 
Well that's a good question - I didn't even know people did that until I joined this forum.



recDNA said:


> As far as "worth" the price. You know what? If you enjoy the tool and trust it and take pride in it of course it IS worth the money to YOU but may not be worth the money to ME.



I think recDNA hit the nail on the head - to answer the original question - "Do you get what you pay for", you need to define what something is "worth", which is waaaaaaaayyy different for everyone.

I know someone that has a $28,000 stereo system at home. And it only plays CDs. To him it's worth it, but he might think I'm an idiot for spending $50 on a flashlight. I love music but I will guarantee you right now there is no way he will ever convince me it's worth MY money to spend that much on a stereo.

Sorry to get all philosophical about the relative "Worth" of things, but I think that's what's behind this healthy debate - you can't impose your sense of worth on someone else - don't even try.


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## angelofwar (Mar 30, 2010)

recDNA said:


> I've yet to hear a good argument that explains why (If Surefire is so good) many Surefire buyers cannot wait to replace the LED with a brighter drop in, bore the tube to fit a better energy source, and add a McClicky to get a better clicky IF the Surefire is so good as is? I mean when they're done all that's left of the Surefire is the name on the modified tube?


 
Not much of an argument to be had...as several have stated, as have I, I have 22 stock SF's, and only 3 with malkoff's. I did replace the standard Lamps because the lights at the time came with there battery draining incans...but, that's the way SF designed them...as "tactical lights". It's not that the malkoff's were the brightest thing...SF has comparable lights...I just don't own them...yet . 

So many of "us" "mod" them (not myself, inparticulary) becasue the SF's are "purpose built". The M3 is not a "walk in the woods lights". It's designed as a force multiplier meant to be used by SWAT/L.E....but if I like the style of the M3 and want to use it as a walk in the woods light, why can't I mod it to suit my needs? Or I could just use a stock E2L...a purpose driven light.

One I hear alot is complaining about the Kroma..."$XXX for 50 LUMENS!!! They're nuts!!!". Two Words..."Light Discipline"...the military doesn't necessarily want one option of 200 lumens from a hand-held. I'm glad they made a "purpose driven" light like this for preserving night vision/map reading in hostile areas...other-wise I'd have to use an unreliable option...

We mod them becasue it's fun (my name is bob, I'm a flashaholic)...not because we have too...I swapped my 3 lamps for Malkoff's becasue they were different and weren't offered by SF in that specific set-up. Not that they don't have somethnig that can't equal it.


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## waddup (Mar 30, 2010)

recDNA said:


> Ya, but there is more left of the car than the nameplate! I mean if you replace the clicky and the drop in and bore the tube what's left of the Surefire?



the name


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## DimeRazorback (Mar 31, 2010)

waddup said:


> the name



How about the super tough foundation?

Every house needs a strong foundation, before the walls can be built around it.


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## waddup (Mar 31, 2010)

DimeRazorback said:


> How about the super tough foundation?
> 
> Every house needs a strong foundation, before the walls can be built around it.



is the metal used in a surefire body significantly better then other hosts?

or the same.


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## DimeRazorback (Mar 31, 2010)

Try boring out a Fenix, see what happens.

Surefire's are thicker, and stronger.
A better grade of Al is possibly used however I don't know much about metal grades.

My point was not to start another poo slinging contest, more to offer the idea that if you want to start with a foundation, why not start with a good one?


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## Greg G (Mar 31, 2010)

was.lost.but.now.found said:


> Regarding ESS, who admittedly I'd not heard of before, they seem nice, but offer few if any products with polarization which is a deal killer for me.


 

Well........in your defense, my example was a poor one.....because ESS is a subsidiary of Oakley! :sick2:


So...anywhooo.....you'd pass on a pair of ESS because of lack of polarizing, which affects the WAY THINGS LOOK?

I will pass on Surefire in the future for the very same reason, the way things look when using one. 

I don't want to shine a light on someone and wonder if they've been drinking too much colloidal silver!


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## DimeRazorback (Mar 31, 2010)

Greg G said:


> So...anywhooo.....you'd pass on a pair of ESS because of lack of polarizing, which affects the WAY THINGS LOOK?



I only wear polarized oakley's for the fact that they are the maximum protection for my eyes against the sun.
Anything else, and my retinas feel like they are melting.


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## ElectronGuru (Mar 31, 2010)

recDNA said:


> Ya, but there is more left of the car than the nameplate!



Sorry mate, I'm not being clear. The examples I'm thinking of are not cat back exhaust + low profile tires. 
I'm talking about taking a perfectly good, brand new, high end car, and outright replacing...

Drive train: engine + transmission + brakes + wheels + tires
Interior: seats + upholstery + dash/gauges + audio/nav
Paint: every panel, every part, inside and out​
At this level, the result is not so much a modification of the original car but a new car, based on the original. 
Shops like Brabus have been doing this to cars for years. This is still a pretty new concept in the world of flashlights.


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## waddup (Mar 31, 2010)

ElectronGuru said:


> Brabus



some people just have toooooo much money :shakehead

if i had the money to do anything like that, id buy 50 people (that need one) a used car.


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## Greg G (Mar 31, 2010)

DimeRazorback said:


> I only wear polarized oakley's for the fact that they are the maximum protection for my eyes against the sun.
> Anything else, and my retinas feel like they are melting.


 

There are quite a few servicemen in Iraq and Afghanistan that favor the ESS. 



I wonder why that is? 

I wonder which light that same group (non-lemmings) are carrying? A (gasp!) non-Surefire? :twothumbs

ETA: Those guys are easy to spot on the news. They're the ones carrying *liberated* AK's.


----------



## DimeRazorback (Mar 31, 2010)

Greg G said:


> There are quite a few servicemen in Iraq and Afghanistan that favor the ESS.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



That's cool, not questioning the ESS's, just you made a comment that was.lost.but.now.found only wears polarized glasses for the "WAY THINGS LOOK?" and I was just adding that there is more to wearing polarized glasses than how things look through them


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## Greg G (Mar 31, 2010)

Like the name on the frame? :thumbsup:

I took a look at the MP a minute ago. About every third ad is for a Surefire. 


Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm.........


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## DimeRazorback (Mar 31, 2010)

Greg G said:


> Like the name on the frame? :thumbsup:
> 
> I took a look at the MP a minute ago. About every third ad is for a Surefire.
> 
> ...



There are more polarized sunnies out there other than Oakleys :thinking:
I just wear Oakleys, as they are good for running, cycling etc etc. 
The 3 pairs I own are all designed for cycling, and work well lol. :shrug:

This thread is sooooo off topic.


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## kramer5150 (Mar 31, 2010)

recDNA said:


> "
> 
> I've yet to hear a good argument that explains why (If Surefire is so good) many Surefire buyers cannot wait to replace the LED with a brighter drop in, bore the tube to fit a better energy source, and add a McClicky to get a better clicky IF the Surefire is so good as is?



... because the fit, finish, heft, feel and overall quality is the best, and hence Surefires are the only ones worth the effort to mod. I would mod EVERY flashlight if it were rewarding enough, but most are not worth the effort.

Not every SF even needs to be modded. The A2 and E2L are perfect lighting tools box-stock. The M2 is a perfect incan with a 7.4V LA and RCR123 cells. I have never felt the need to replace any surefire switch with a McClicky, doing so would be a step down in reliability from the Z41. I only have one 18650 bored SF... thats enough for me.


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## Greg G (Mar 31, 2010)

You continued the sunshade part so don't complain.

http://www.cpfmarketplace.com/mp/forumdisplay.php?f=123

As of 11:28 P.M. Central Standard Time, 12 of the first 20 ads are for Surefires. That's over 50%.


I wonder why people are not holding onto them?


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## jhc37013 (Mar 31, 2010)

Greg G said:


> You continued the sunshade part so don't complain.
> 
> http://www.cpfmarketplace.com/mp/forumdisplay.php?f=123
> 
> ...



I don't understand why you continue and try to discredit Surefire by suggesting people buy them because the military uses them so we think their cool. Is it a bonus yes because it proves reliability also the Marketplace has so many Surefire up for sale because Surefire sells so many of them their is alot out in the market. If you need some funds and have a Surefire what better light to have to sell, why because people want it. Also all the great factory and after market parts for sale again why sell them because they will sell and people love them, your link only provides a argument that Surefire dominates the market and people love them.


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## kramer5150 (Mar 31, 2010)

Greg G said:


> I wonder why people are not holding onto them?



Because everyone wants them and is willing to pay for them.


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## DimeRazorback (Mar 31, 2010)

Greg G said:


> You continued the sunshade part so don't complain.
> 
> http://www.cpfmarketplace.com/mp/forumdisplay.php?f=123
> 
> ...




Excuse me?
You made an arrogant statement about why was.lost.but.now.found wears polarized glasses, it had nothing to do with *brand*.
I then stated that I will only wear polarized lenses, which just happen to be oakleys due to the fact that I do a fair amount of cycling.
To which you brought back the _brand_ issue.
I then stated that it is not about brand, it is about the polarization that is important to me.
You obviously have no understanding as to what polarization of lenses actually _does_.

Complain?
Lets just see what the mods say about this thread. I bet one thing will be how off topic it is...

You sir are very rude, and arrogant.


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## Greg G (Mar 31, 2010)

I have a difference of opinion with you, and I'm rude and arrogant?

Ok, sounds logical. 

We have different criterion for a $200 flashlight, but I will not call you names or insult you. I come from the Land of Free Speech. Well, my country's Bill of Rights protects political speech, but the subject of flashlights ranks right up there if not higher I think, don't you? Or maybe you think we need a Constitutional Amendment to protect Surefire Speech? 

Make sure and alert the mods to my *opinion*. 

FWIW.........I just received in the mail yesterday another Surefire C2. This one is marked *Emerson*. I paid $150 for this *host*. It's a great one too. All of my friends will OOOOO and AHHHH over it because of the logo. Will I even light it up before modding it? Nope. Wouldn't waste the wattage, being green and all that. A real LED is going in it. And Lighthound *found* a couple of IMR 18650's so I'm in business. Maybe I'll post up some pics for you to dream about 

Perhaps you'll be interested in buying it once modded?  A hint........you'll need your Oakleys before turing it on. Polarized of course. Nothing else would do (although many USGI's wear ESS). 


Aren't these Surefire threads so much fun?! :naughty::laughing::thumbsup:


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## DimeRazorback (Mar 31, 2010)

Greg G said:


> I have a difference of opinion with you, and I'm rude and arrogant?
> 
> Ok, sounds logical.
> 
> ...



We were not personally discussing flashlights, or opinions as a matter of fact.

You were telling myself and others that we were basically stupid for wanting to wear polarized sunglasses. ESS or nothing, was your mentallity.

I have repeated myself three times now, expressing that I was mearly talking about how I like polarized lenses. Each time you come back with some x brand vs y brand response, and fail to show any comprehension on what it was I was actually saying.

It appears you really have no idea what it is you have said, after you say it.

I will not retract my opinions of you based on what you have said to me in the last four responses.
Also, your latest response has just confirmed and strengthened my opinions and statements about you.


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## Greg G (Mar 31, 2010)

I don't care what YOU wear for sunglasses, nor do I care what YOU use for a flashlight.

Just don't tell ME how great Surefire is when I paid $200 out of MY POCKET for an L5 that made any normal person look like a Smurf. 

Ok? 

Deal?


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## DimeRazorback (Mar 31, 2010)

I haven't told you a thing... 

Once again, you're proving my points...

You really are hell bent against some things aren't you?


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## nbp (Mar 31, 2010)

You could probably return it. :shrug:


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## Greg G (Mar 31, 2010)

DimeRazorback said:


> I haven't told you a thing...
> 
> Once again, you're proving my points...
> 
> You really are hell bent against some things aren't you?


 

Marketplace is still holding steady at 12 out of the top 20 ads containing Surefire. Ranks right up there with SUV's on a used car lot during a gas crunch in the U.S.


There is a strange inconsistency in your posts. You call me *Sir* followed by *rude* and *arrogant*. Is that a polite insult or something? 

Do you think I have not fairly formed my opinion? Should I buy more Surefires hoping for a different outcome?


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## DimeRazorback (Mar 31, 2010)

:tired:


p.s "Sir" is simply a respectful way to address someone, it can be used when you do not know them.


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## Greg G (Mar 31, 2010)

nbp said:


> You could probably return it. :shrug:


 
Perhaps you would take this orphan of a light in.

$150. That is a $50 loss on my end. It's the closest thing to a cyan light you will get without the name.


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## Greg G (Mar 31, 2010)

DimeRazorback said:


> :tired:


 

Just funning around with ya' Bloke.

It's all good. 

Good night friend.


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## DimeRazorback (Mar 31, 2010)

Greg G said:


> Just funning around with ya' Bloke.
> 
> It's all good.
> 
> Good night friend.




No problem, I do not take any of it personally.

Also I am not physically or mentally tired, just tired of your "banter"... if you can call it that


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## Greg G (Mar 31, 2010)

Sorry!


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## march.brown (Mar 31, 2010)

DimeRazorback said:


> I then stated that it is not about brand, it is about the polarization that is important to me.
> You obviously have no understanding as to what polarization of lenses actually _does_.


 
Sorry to but-in to this two-way discussion , but there certainly are times when polarised lenses are distinctly advantageous ... Yellow-tinted polarised lenses are ideal for cutting through the reflections off the water when fishing ... Couldn't manage to spot the trout as well without them ... I would also point out that they are used for minimising reflections off glass surfaces ... However they are no good for use in cars that have toughened windows as the stress patterns in the glass become very visible ... OK for laminated glass though.

Mine are clip-on lenses and have served me well for about fifteen years or so ... They are made by a company called Optix and are still in perfect condition , as I keep them in their hard case when not in use ... I only ever clean them with a cloth as paper tissues , which are made from wood , can abrade the polished surfaces of the lenses.

You can also use two polarised lenses as an effective variable neutral-density filter , so they do serve many useful purposes that the other lenses couldn't.

I also take great care of my torches , which is why I said in an earlier post that they will last forever even though they are not Surefires ... In my particular case , a Surefire could not possibly last longer than my more modestly priced ones ... Consequently I will not be "investing ?" in a Surefire ... My £18-36 Solarforces are absolutely top value for money , though I am changing the five mode drop-in to a three mode as I am not too keen on the strobe or S-O-S modes ... At just over £8 , including postage , I can justify this expenditure easily.

My torches consist of two Solarforce L2s plus a L2i ... A Romisen RC-U4 and Trustfire F20 both kept in the car , An iTP A2 for personal carry which will be superceeded by the stainless version when it arrives (because I like it) and the good old Maglite 3AA LED that lives in the kitchen ... I can't actually call these torches a collection , as they are all "users".

Well , I hope this thread is now back on the original subject as I enjoy the (normally) good-humoured banter of the pro-Surefires versus the rest of the World ... A bit like the "Flat-Earth Society" versus the rest really.





.


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## angelofwar (Mar 31, 2010)

Greg G said:


> You continued the sunshade part so don't complain.
> 
> http://www.cpfmarketplace.com/mp/forumdisplay.php?f=123
> 
> ...


 
90% of the time that's not the case...I would get rid of alot of my lights...unforunately no one wants to buy my other lights. I occassionally sell spare SF parts...only to get another Surefire light. :nana:


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## was.lost.but.now.found (Mar 31, 2010)

march.brown said:


> ... However they are no good for use in cars that have toughened windows as the stress patterns in the glass become very visible ... OK for laminated glass though.


 
Just my opinion of course, but the benefit of preventing me from being blinded by refracted sun light more than makes up for this little nuance. Until you wear a pair of polarized shades outside on both overcast and sunny days, you truly don't know what you're missing. And this will be my last off topic post, promise.


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## Gene43 (Mar 31, 2010)

I remember when Cathy and I first started dating, she came to my apartment to eat hamburgers one evening. She searched high and low for the ketchup and mayonaise. I, of course being a reasonable person, don't eat such crap. Ketchup is too sweet and mayo is simply white grease. I proceeded to explain to her that she was an idiot. She thankfully overlooked my bone headedness and brought some with her and stocked my refrigerator the next time.

We have now been married almost 19 years. She still eats that crap. I still don't, and I still don't understand her reasoning for liking it. She just does. 

Most important I have learned to shut my mouth and allow her to enjoy what she enjoys. She continues to allow me to be boneheaded, about certain things, and loves me anyway.


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## was.lost.but.now.found (Mar 31, 2010)

ElectronGuru said:


> Continuing the automotive analogy, I like to think of it like tuning. Like taking a $100K car and making it into a $200K car. The kind of componentry this includes simply isn't available in a turnkey setup. And since you're choosing a platform, why not make it a good one?:


 
I got a little chuckle that this was taken in front of a Chrysler dealer.


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## Mr Bigglow (Mar 31, 2010)

If this is still the Surefire thread I started reading...... I'm one of those hands-on folks whose workaday safety depends on things like flashlights, and following a decade or so of scary/crappy unreliable lights that were in fact about as reliable (and useful) as Ladas, a Streamlight, specifically an incan Scorpion with a 2 hour life bulb, seemed like the most holy of holy grails- until I discovered Surefire incan, which was even better- and don't even ask about SF LED, which feature amazes me still and is directly responsible for my current flashaholism. SF's almost total reliability is easily worth 50% or more more cost to me, and the very obvious special quality of SF components is a sign of that, also a significant added pleasure to ownership. That said, I do feel for the earlier contributors here from the UK, who have to pay a extra and huge amount of duty and other barrier tariffs I'm sure, plus VAT and so on. I probably would not be a SF owner under those circs, but I would be looking for a way around such nonsense. Otherwise, any quality maker from a non-slave-based society needs and deserves support from buyers and SF ownership is not a guarantee of entry into heaven or anything like it. They're just flashlights, very very tough and reliable flashlights.


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## carrot (Mar 31, 2010)

It is both refreshing and frustrating to have a Surefire vs. * thread that is civil but full of misguided opinions on both sides of the fence.

Yes, it is possible for a non-Surefire to be reliable, high quality, etcetera.

However, Surefire is simply a cut above in build quality and design. The machining, the high quality anodize, precision cut threads and all sorts of other little details is what makes them so attractive. It is difficult to see this when you compare specifications on paper but in person these details are readily apparent. The minute I first held a Surefire I knew this was something different. 

They are too large of a company, with too much internal strife, to be as fast and maneuverable as the smaller companies like 4sevens, Olight, Fenix, etcetera, so they cannot offer the latest and greatest LED bins like they used to advertise.

If you want to simply have the brightest, most cutting edge LEDs, look elsewhere. But if you want quality, elegant design, and support one of the biggest innovators, Surefire is a top choice. Hence, Surefire is a great host for all sorts of wonderful additions, like Malkoff and Nailbender drop-ins. Heck, many Surefires are awesome even without upgrading, like the E1B, E2DL, LX2, A2L...


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## the.Mtn.Man (Mar 31, 2010)

carrot said:


> Surefire is simply a cut above in build quality and design.


But the question is, does it _matter_? I think for most people the answer is no and they will not find a non-Surefire light to be any less rugged and reliable for their purposes.


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## carrot (Mar 31, 2010)

the.Mtn.Man said:


> But the question is, does it _matter_? I think for most people the answer is no and they will not find a non-Surefire light to be any less rugged and reliable for their purposes.


Well whether it matters and is worth it is simply subjective, to which no objective answer can be arrived. And I wouldn't bother to argue this point in either direction because it will get nowhere.

E: But the OP asks whether you get what you pay for, which you implicitly agree that you do get what you pay for.


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## Rocketman (Mar 31, 2010)

I think the answer here is that Surefire builds lights that are meant to be used in military operations, in police operations, fire and rescue. I think they may be worth their cost for use in those areas. For other uses, perhaps if they suite you. Myself, Fenix is top quality for my uses, and Jetbeam. I do use a 6P Led but it has a Malkoff M60LL. I think that it is perhaps worth what I paid for it. But I also think that for many folk, many Surefire lights will not be worth their cost.

I'm off to work, good day.


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## ElectronGuru (Mar 31, 2010)

Gene43 said:


> Most important I have learned to shut my mouth and allow her to enjoy what she enjoys.
> She continues to allow me to be boneheaded, about certain things, and loves me anyway.



Priceless Gene, priceless.


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## vvs (Mar 31, 2010)

We're looking for perfection every time using something, the same for cars: we started with something relatively simple, then start to compare while using it, then things ends up with audi/bmw/etc. Every time we reach horizon, we see new one, once we reach second horizon, we'll see next one.

I think the same with flashlights: start with something very simple, like AAA energizer or 2AA simpliest incan, then we go for multiled, then for DX/KD, then for Fenix'ish and still looking for perfection resulting in SF. And I'm sure, following this theory flashaholics can't stop on SF 
The human mind wants new new impressions, and stimulate owner to get it. So for money we got new impressions and got stimulated by brain-emitted chemicals: "youre good, keep going!" 
It's a question of quality AND overall good subjective impressions related to product (flashligt - whatever).
The same dilemma I have with my WV passat B6, when I sit first time, there was WOW! Now I'm looking for A6 Avant quattro or C230 Kompressor, and it's difficult to deal with myself on "passat is more than meet my demands", you don't need those $55k cars". It's a question of selfcontrol, but mind want new turn and we must provide new impressions and learn something important every day we live, othervise the brain will torture us ends with bad mood etc. 

Something like that. 

PS: don't throw rotten tomatoes, English far from mine native


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## the.Mtn.Man (Mar 31, 2010)

carrot said:


> Well whether it matters and is worth it is simply subjective...


Exactly my point. 



carrot said:


> But the OP asks whether you get what you pay for, which you implicitly agree that you do get what you pay for.


So the answer is, "Yes, you get what you pay for, but so what?"


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## uknewbie (Mar 31, 2010)

I think almost everyone would agree that Surefire are better quality than all the cheapo efforts that are around. I wish people would stop mentioning this, we all know.

More interesting, is how they compare to other *premium, expensive brands?*

As far as I have been able to compare, Jetbeam seem every bit as high quality as Surefire, at less money too.

They also have a better UI with their control ring, are better looking and have higher output.

Despite not being tempted to buy a Surefire, that does not mean I would consider something "cheap".


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## fizzwinkus (Mar 31, 2010)

vvs said:


> Every time we reach horizon, we see new one, once we reach second horizon, we'll see next one.



which begs the question, what manufacturers are the next horizon after surefire?


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## Kiessling (Mar 31, 2010)

uknewbie said:


> More interesting, is how they compare to other *premium, expensive brands?*
> 
> As far as I have been able to compare, Jetbeam seem every bit as high quality as Surefire, at less money too.
> 
> ...




An example that is not Fenix vs SF and where I do have a light in question (the new Jet RRT-0) ... I can comment.

The control ring is a SF invention and was introduced on the U2. Jetbeam just uses it now. But they implemented a stupid hidden setting for a low-low, thus defeating the purpose of such a KISS UI. Not well executed. 

Then ... the lens/head assambly is way less sturdy and clever then SFs ... I had two lenses crack on mine without me even touching it. 

Higher output is easy. You just put more current through the emitter and give up runtime. It is a choice, not a marker of quality. 

Better looking is subjective and irrelevant. What is relevant though is that the Jet has a delay of 100-200ms between clicking and turning on ... which makes signaling impossible and which might well be deadly for someone in the LEO business. Very uncool for a "tactical" light. Not well executed.

So ... we have a light that copies a SF UI and ruins it in the process with some useless add-on "feature", which has a delay in the switch and some build quality problems at the business end. And that should be a contender for the top quality segment? I beg to differ. The only top feature is the somewhat high price.




What we get with SF is not just good materials, fine ano, perfect machining, the best UIs available, unmatched CS etc. We get all of this and much more ... we get a concept that just works. A light that is so well thought out and tested that it excels, that it gets the intended job done, and reliabley so and in the best possible way. It ismroe than just the sum of its parts on a spec sheet.
For that, we pay. For that perfect tool, for the innovation that brought us to that tool, we pay. 
Some don't need or want it, and that is perfectly fine. But if you want or need the best, in SF you find it. 

bernie


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## jhc37013 (Mar 31, 2010)

uknewbie said:


> As far as I have been able to compare, Jetbeam seem every bit as high quality as Surefire, at less money too.
> 
> They also have a better UI with their control ring, are better looking and have higher output.



You need to compare a little more if this is what you believe because Jetbeam is not every bit as high quality as Surefire. I own some of each and even though in my book the Jetbeams are the best Chinese made light that I own their ano, switch and optics are not as well made as Surefire. As far as more output what models are you comparing? Size wise the best comparisons I can make with the lights I own is the Jet III Pro ST compared to a E2DL or LX2 and the Surefire's don't have as much bright spill but more then make up for it in throw and in the size of the hotspot.

As for comparing smaller light's I have the RRT0 and a E1B, I love the RRT0 and use it often it does have brighter spill then the E1B but the E1B out throws it by a small margin but again it's hard to beat the wide spot of the E1B's TIR optics. I think I may have mentioned in a earlier post the E1B also doubles the RRT0 in runtime. You are right about the selector ring I love them on my RRT0 and RRT2 it is one of my favorite features out of everything I own but as mentioned by another member above it's something Surefire has been doing a long time.


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## Greg G (Mar 31, 2010)

One thing that would make the high end models of the Surefire line more desirable to me would be for them to be user serviceable in the field. For instance, if you crack a bezel on an L5, you have to send it in to the factory to have it replaced. You can't open the head on a lot of their lights unless you have special tools. 

So what do our soldiers do when they break a Surefire light, just go to supply and get a whole new light? Is that practical? 

Military weapons are designed to be user friendly in the field, why not the lights as well?

I like to be able to replace broken parts from my stash of spare parts, and with almost all of my lights that is the case.

Just a thought.


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## sabre7 (Mar 31, 2010)

You get what you pay for with a Mag lite. For those of us that need a tool for light nothing is more rugged at such a reasonable price. When ruggedness counts, I'll take a cheap plastic lens and plastic reflector and thick heavy aluminum any day. 

Connoisseurs & white wall hunters can quibble and nitpick over ringy beams, quality of knurling, quality of engraving, centered logos, and great "feel" of their light and how all that justifies how much they spend is actually an investment in superior quality all they want.

My 20 year old 4D Mag is scratched up, nicked, beaten up, been dropped, tumbled down stairs, dropped in mud, laid out in the yard in the rain/snow etc. I clean the badly scratched original plastic lens with spit and what ever paper towel or rag happens to be around and it still does what I bought it for--light. $20 well spent. :nana:


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## carrot (Apr 1, 2010)

fizzwinkus said:


> which begs the question, what manufacturers are the next horizon after surefire?


Custom makers, of course.

Not all custom makers are at the level of Surefire and beyond, but McGizmo, Valiant/Malkoff, Muyshondt, and Cool Fall certainly are, speaking from my own experience.



Greg G said:


> One thing that would make the high end models of the Surefire line more desirable to me would be for them to be user serviceable in the field. For instance, if you crack a bezel on an L5, you have to send it in to the factory to have it replaced. You can't open the head on a lot of their lights unless you have special tools.
> 
> So what do our soldiers do when they break a Surefire light, just go to supply and get a whole new light? Is that practical?
> 
> ...



To *Greg G* with regards to needing spare parts, if you have as many Surefires as I do, you have plenty of spare parts. Please advise me as to which lights you own that you can user service, and what spare parts you expect to have? Can you replace the lens on (insert light here)? How about a fizzled out circuit? Broken clicky? Looking at ALL of the other non-Surefires I own, I can't say I have spare parts for ANY of them, unless you count swapping parts with other compatible models. All I've got are o-rings and a few rubber boots.

More importantly, have you broken a Surefire? Since you seem to hate your L5, I invite you to attempt to break it, I think you will find it will survive as well if not better than any competitors. If you do break it, Surefire has you covered.



Kiessling said:


> An example that is not Fenix vs SF and where I do have a light in question (the new Jet RRT-0) ... I can comment.
> 
> The control ring is a SF invention and was introduced on the U2. Jetbeam just uses it now. But they implemented a stupid hidden setting for a low-low, thus defeating the purpose of such a KISS UI. Not well executed.
> 
> ...



To *Kiessling*, I agree with your assessment 100%. The Jetbeam RRT-0, while nice, and a good light, is certainly not up to the Surefire standard. The UI is flawed, thanks to the idiotic addition of a poorly implemented customization "feature", and I also noticed a slight delay with switch activation. I cannot speak to its durability as it is my friend's and he babies it, but I did notice some potential design pitfalls with regards to strength.



sabre7 said:


> Connoisseurs & white wall hunters can quibble and nitpick over ringy beams, quality of knurling, quality of engraving, centered logos, and great "feel" of their light and how all that justifies how much they spend is actually an investment in superior quality all they want.
> 
> My 20 year old 4D Mag is scratched up, nicked, beaten up, been dropped, tumbled down stairs, dropped in mud, laid out in the yard in the rain/snow etc. I clean the badly scratched original plastic lens with spit and what ever paper towel or rag happens to be around and it still does what I bought it for--light. $20 well spent. :nana:



To *sabre7*, I am glad that you enjoy your Maglites. In fact, I strongly admire your steadfast adherence to a nostalgic light that you have clearly loved for decades, that I will avoid mentioning any of your "issues" with modern lights, such as "beam quality", "machining quality", "feel" and "aesthetics" in my response to your sensible comment. If you are satisfied with your Maglites who am I to convince you otherwise, so please don't take this as me trying to get you to abandon your faithful tool.

I joined CPF because I wanted something where I wouldn't have to replace the bulb every five hours and I wanted something brighter. I will carry on using lights that I can pocket, because a light comes in most handy when you have it with you.

I also think it is amusing that my $39 Quark MiNi is several times brighter than your Maglite 4D, runs longer, is no less durable, and is smaller than even a single one of your batteries. :nana:


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## nbp (Apr 1, 2010)

After having my new Ra Clicky for a couple weeks, I would say that it is pretty comparable to my SFs in quality and ruggedness. But I guess it may not count in this thread, because I had to "pay for it". They aren't exactly cheap either. But was it worth it? Absolutely! For all the reasons we have mentioned we like SFs, I think I could say the same for the Ra. 

Just a general observation for those who were wondering about other manufacturers on par with Surefire. YMMV. :tinfoil:


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## fizzwinkus (Apr 1, 2010)

carrot said:


> Custom makers, of course.
> 
> Not all custom makers are at the level of Surefire and beyond, but McGizmo, Valiant/Malkoff, Muyshondt, and Cool Fall certainly are, speaking from my own experience.



I will definitely have to check them out. It's almost a shame starting out with surefires... The upgrade from L2 to LX2 was fantastic and completely normal.
Hopefully soon, I can add a chimera mini...


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## jhc37013 (Apr 1, 2010)

carrot said:


> The Jetbeam RRT-0, while nice, and a good light, is certainly not up to the Surefire standard. The UI is flawed, thanks to the idiotic addition of a poorly implemented customization "feature", and I also noticed a slight delay with switch activation.



With my RRT0 the only thing I can customize is the low mode which can be changed to a low-low I don't understand the comments with regards to a UI flaw, please advise.


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## Greg G (Apr 1, 2010)

Carrot wrote:

*"To Greg G with regards to needing spare parts, if you have as many Surefires as I do, you have plenty of spare parts. Please advise me as to which lights you own that you can user service, and what spare parts you expect to have? Can you replace the lens on (insert light here)? How about a fizzled out circuit? Broken clicky? Looking at ALL of the other non-Surefires I own, I can't say I have spare parts for ANY of them, unless you count swapping parts with other compatible models. All I've got are o-rings and a few rubber boots.*

*More importantly, have you broken a Surefire? Since you seem to hate your L5, I invite you to attempt to break it, I think you will find it will survive as well if not better than any competitors. If you do break it, Surefire has you covered."*


My stock L5 has a cracked bezel. It happened while out on loan to a buddy. I'm not going to send it back in to Surefire for that. I'll get around to making the appropriate tools to disassemble it, clean out the thread locking compound, then I'll be set for life. I'll screw it back together without thread locker, so I can get back into MY LIGHT........when I need to............for repairs.

As for all of my other lights....I have boxes upon boxes of spare parts, and I can repair or mod just about any of them. I have emitters, drivers, refectors, optics, batteries, lenses, o-rings, the list goes on. Bunches of tools, a lab power supply, a full machine shop at my busniess (I'm a machinist), so there isn't much I can't do to a light on a whim. 

You *invite* me to break it? I'll keep my post mature and simply ask..... "why would you say that?"


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## sabre7 (Apr 1, 2010)

carrot said:


> To *sabre7*, I am glad that you enjoy your Maglites. In fact, I strongly admire your steadfast adherence to a nostalgic light that you have clearly loved for decades, that I will avoid mentioning any of your "issues" with modern lights, such as "beam quality", "machining quality", "feel" and "aesthetics" in my response to your sensible comment. If you are satisfied with your Maglites who am I to convince you otherwise, so please don't take this as me trying to get you to abandon your faithful tool.
> 
> I joined CPF because I wanted something where I wouldn't have to replace the bulb every five hours and I wanted something brighter. I will carry on using lights that I can pocket, because a light comes in most handy when you have it with you.
> 
> I also think it is amusing that my $39 Quark MiNi is several times brighter than your Maglite 4D, runs longer, is no less durable, and is smaller than even a single one of your batteries. :nana:



Sorry, but I don't have "issues" with "modern" lights, I have several, including the Quark Mini. It is also pointless to engage in the brand and feature bickering that has dominated this thread, despite your subtle invitation to do so by comparing the Quark Mini to the Mag. I'm not a rabid fanboy of any one brand, old or new.

Since the original topic was about getting your moneys worth, my point was: as much abuse as the old Mag has seen for 20 years, and still be working as intended, and despite its "inferiority" on so many levels, I feel that for the comparatively low price, it was well worth what I paid for it. Now about that old box of candles in the drawer... :candle:


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## jhc37013 (Apr 1, 2010)

A cracked bezel or lens? And how in the world did your buddy manage to do that?


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## Greg G (Apr 1, 2010)

jhc37013 said:


> A cracked bezel or lens? And how in the world did your buddy manage to do that?


 
Lens. I call them bezels sometimes. He dropped it at the airport, I'm guessing concrete. Customs agent.

The driver didn't fail. That is one thing that is bulletproof about the Surefires, the electronics. They take a lot of abuse.


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## vvs (Apr 1, 2010)

fizzwinkus said:


> which begs the question, what manufacturers are the next horizon after surefire?



You askin a wrong question 

The proper question should be like "what flashlight would be better than mine whole zoo, regardless of usage scenario". If we clarify our usage scenarios, there will be few of them (try to remember last 10 different scenarios of usage, I'm sure it even be less than fingers on one hand), and we can choose best and best backup flights to every scenario. Every time we are looking the best to get new impressions for what ?  We already have flashlights that meets all of our demands with 200% coverage. When surefire passes automatic rifles recoil tests, underwater usage, dust and mud test, that means it passes every usage scenarios in civil life. And that mean it can be used for most real life applications, where ligt is sufficient, another market is spotlight/searchlight, where EDC is not in.
Another question is look, feel, runtime, color temp, CRI and UI: there we should decide, which combination of knurling, balance, LED and UI we prerfer and THEN choose the best one. Does not exist, okay! Look for something that spot closer to what we looking for, there will be few, by all of them, compare them, and choose best one as primary and another best for backup and swap them every day 
The main idea when dealing with flashaholism is to setup a usage scenario and stop buying new for at least 1 year, coz' Moore law is for flashlights too :devil:


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## jhc37013 (Apr 1, 2010)

Greg G said:


> Lens. I call them bezels sometimes. He dropped it at the airport, I'm guessing concrete. Customs agent.
> 
> The driver didn't fail. That is one thing that is bulletproof about the Surefires, the electronics. They take a lot of abuse.



Its a $195 flashlight send it back and get a new one, who knows maybe you will even get a better tint.


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## march.brown (Apr 1, 2010)

I may be getting this wrong , but , do Surefire replace the broken ones with brand new ones ?

If so , what do they do with all the returned items ? ... Do they repair them or do they scrap them ? ... If they repair them , do they then sell them on as used torches ? ... Maybe they give the repaired ones to deserving causes ? ... If so , I am a 72 year old pensioner and would love to own a torch that I would never otherwise be able to afford ... I wouldn't care if it was scratched , as long as it worked and the optics were OK ... I would just like to be able to own one and compare it personally against my cheaper brands.

In my case it would have been one (possibly used) Surefire or all my cheaper torches ... I needed several torches , so the cheapies won !

Fingers crossed that the kind Mr Surefire reads this.
.


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## the.Mtn.Man (Apr 1, 2010)

Not every Surefire is astronomically priced. The G2 and 6P available at Lowes and Home Depot are priced at $69 and $89 respectively, though I have no idea why there's such a substantial price difference since for all intents and purposes they appear to be the exact same light with only minor, cosmetic differences.


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## DimeRazorback (Apr 1, 2010)

The 6P is made of metal, the G2 is made of nitrolon polymer.


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## DimeRazorback (Apr 1, 2010)

Greg G said:


> My stock L5 has a cracked bezel.



If by bezel you mean lens, they are easy to remove.

Just turn the top of the head (the bezel), with a bit of force and the lens will fall out.
There may be some thread lock on there, but a strap wrench will fix that


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## march.brown (Apr 1, 2010)

Sorry to ask what might seem to be a silly question , but I don't know anything about Surefire Torches.

What batteries do the Surefires use ? ... The ones I've been looking at all seem to use 123s ... Are there any that use 18650s or AAs without changing drop-ins or resorting to boring out the body ?
.


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## fizzwinkus (Apr 1, 2010)

vvs said:


> You askin a wrong question
> 
> The proper question should be like "what flashlight would be better than mine whole zoo, regardless of usage scenario". If we clarify our usage scenarios, there will be few of them (try to remember last 10 different scenarios of usage, I'm sure it even be less than fingers on one hand), and we can choose best and best backup flights to every scenario. Every time we are looking the best to get new impressions for what ?  We already have flashlights that meets all of our demands with 200% coverage. When surefire passes automatic rifles recoil tests, underwater usage, dust and mud test, that means it passes every usage scenarios in civil life. And that mean it can be used for most real life applications, where ligt is sufficient, another market is spotlight/searchlight, where EDC is not in.
> Another question is look, feel, runtime, color temp, CRI and UI: there we should decide, which combination of knurling, balance, LED and UI we prerfer and THEN choose the best one. Does not exist, okay! Look for something that spot closer to what we looking for, there will be few, by all of them, compare them, and choose best one as primary and another best for backup and swap them every day
> The main idea when dealing with flashaholism is to setup a usage scenario and stop buying new for at least 1 year, coz' Moore law is for flashlights too :devil:



i have an LX2 in my toolbag, a saint minimus and Glotoob in my emergency bag, an m2sc4 in the car, and hopefully soon a chimera mini for edc. back when i had a team checking construction, i gave them pd20s. i've standardized on cr123 batteries, and only put them where needed. 

usage requirements don't necessarily preclude one manufacturer from being rated highly in general over another, it's actually a reason they have more than one product.


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## Greg G (Apr 1, 2010)

DimeRazorback said:


> If by bezel you mean lens, they are easy to remove.
> 
> Just turn the top of the head (the bezel), with a bit of force and the lens will fall out.
> There may be some thread lock on there, but a strap wrench will fix that


 

I've tried that.


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## Greg G (Apr 1, 2010)

jhc37013 said:


> Its a $195 flashlight send it back and get a new one, who knows maybe you will even get a better tint.


 

I'm going to mod this one like my other L5 to accept replaceable light engines.


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## DimeRazorback (Apr 1, 2010)

Greg G said:


> I've tried that.




Try it with heat :thumbsup:


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## DimeRazorback (Apr 1, 2010)

march.brown said:


> What batteries do the Surefires use ? ... The ones I've been looking at all seem to use 123s ... Are there any that use 18650s or AAs without changing drop-ins or resorting to boring out the body ?
> .



Surefire use CR123 batteries.
They, alongside Duracell designed them.

No SF's use 18650's in their stock form, hence why people bore them out to use certain after market drop ins. For example the Malkoff M30, Malkoff M60 etc.

There is only *one* AA prototype in the works by SF at the moment, that being the E2L AA Outdoorsman.


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## jefierro (Apr 2, 2010)

You get what you pay for...or DO you?

For us the ones that research every aspect of the light we buy, I think there's little to be gained from one specialized manufacturer to the next. For the collector and EDC Lights user point of view, we will not loose time or money on "substandard" flashlights. is it worth the $5 bucks you spend on an energizer LED flashlight or the +$600 Titanium special edition collector's item flashlight. well how much do you want it? For me it's silly to justify why I pay $210 for a 100Lm flashlight, when you can get a 500Lm for half. Because I love flashlights, also because I sometimes can. Simple, no? 
It's hard for me to comprehend the urge to justify ones purchases, if we where to use a flashlight only one will suffice why then we have collections of them. 

Now to the point, is it expensive enough? will it outlive me? silly things flashlights, they are so simple devices, I still have my first Mag after ~20 years, I can't imagine how much will this new generation of rugged flashlights last, they certainly will outlast me, and hopefully serve my children in a very distant future.
Quality is, in a nut shell, in the eye of the beholder, for me a 7075 Al alloy flashlight with a type III anodize finish equally colored in all their parts, machined of a single Al block is to the next guy a black aluminum tube. If you don't know quality you can't appreciate it. does it cost more to have the best, hell yeah, does it need to be the best?. well is up to you to decide.

I have never owned a surefire, I intend to. But I hate the fact that they are so over priced, I don't mind spending a buck more for the name, R&D is important to me and I support them, But man!, wow, that much?
Also I hate the fact that you need to, in some cases, upgrade your rugged SF with drop ins and the likes to be in trend with the actual market. I have lost to much money on upgrades in other hobbies to start again. So I'll like a SF that needs no mods, and it's worthy to be the first SF light to buy and hopefully not the last.

you get what you pay for, did you know what you got?


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## march.brown (Apr 2, 2010)

DimeRazorback said:


> Surefire use CR123 batteries.
> They, alongside Duracell designed them.
> 
> No SF's use 18650's in their stock form, hence why people bore them out to use certain after market drop ins. For example the Malkoff M30, Malkoff M60 etc.
> ...


 
Thank you DR for answering this query ... Unfortunately , I don't like CR123 cells ... The only multi-cell torches that I would use are either AA or AAA orientated ... In fact the only multi-cell torch that I own is a 3AA Maglite LED that I got cheaply in a sale ... It resides in the kitchen cupboard equipped with Eneloops ,"just in case".

My personal preference is for a single cell 18650 or AA or AAA torch ... I certainly wouldn't consider buying a very expensive torch just to have the body bored-out and a new drop-in added , when there are already a great many torches available that fill the bill perfectly.

I just can't see the point in paying a couple of hundred dollars for an aluminium body-tube with the wrong size hole ... Literally any piece of alloy tubing would suffice when fitted with a top and a tail ! ... You could even choose the wall-thickness to suit its purpose ... If you want one that an elephant can stand on , use a better wall thickness.

I realise that the armed forces and security forces etc prefer to use (throw-away) primary cells and that this sector is the largest volume of sales for Surefire , but this does not affect people like myself ... I just want a reliable single cell torch ... If you are using your torch as in Armed Services or Police , does it matter if the body gets scratched ? ... No of course not ... It just has to work every time ... Any old body tube would do as long as the drop-in and the switch and the battery connections are perfect.

I can understand collectors wanting to have a perfect torch in beautiful condition ... I was like that with my handguns ... My 44 Magnum S & W in high-blue in the fitted cherry-wood casket , My (matching numbers & mint) Luger 1915 , My beautiful Colt 1911 45ACP stainless with compensator and match barrel , My beautiful original 45ACP 1941 , plus several other collectors items that I used several times each week ... Unfortunately for people in the UK , the Dunblane massacre meant that all handguns had to be handed in to the Police to be destroyed ... We all lost many thousands of pounds as the compensation did not cover the true costs ... The people of Dunblane of course lost much more than this ... They lost friends and family.

I do look after my torches now and keep them in perfect condition even though they are all used regularly.

I chose 18650 because it lasts a long time in my torches ... Two and a half hours on full power with considerably more on the lower powers ... The single AA or AAA iTP is perfect for my EDC , particularly the single AA version.

The only modification that I have ever done to a torch (so far) was to my Solarforce L2i ... I extended the body by about 5mm to accept a single 18650 cell rather than the three AAA format ... The 5mm collar and the plastic battery tube cost me nothing ... The torch has a single mode drop-in as standard and lasts for two and a half hours before the cell voltage gets down towards 3.6 volts ... Perfect for my use in the Living Room (just-in-case).

Sorry to go off-thread with the handguns , but I was upset at the loss of my handguns and I miss all the friends that I made when shooting in competitions and at the (now closed) gun-clubs.

Life must go on ... In my case without Surefires !
.


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## the.Mtn.Man (Apr 2, 2010)

jefierro said:


> I have never owned a surefire, I intend to. But I hate the fact that they are so over priced, I don't mind spending a buck more for the name, R&D is important to me and I support them, But man!, wow, that much?


It's all about perceived value and the notion that spending more gets you a better product. I imagine if Surefire were to cut their prices in half that overtime they would be perceived as a lower quality manufacturer than another company that charged twice as much regardless of whether or not that was actually true.


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## yuk (Apr 2, 2010)

If Surefire cut their prices in half I'll buy all their freakin range.


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## Armed_Forces (Apr 2, 2010)

I’ve been gone awhile and low and behold, the first thread that gets me in the mood to post is a friggin’ Surefire blah, blah, blah thread that has plagued this forum like a bad case of VD that just keeps on giving.


Let me break it down for y’all.


All of these Imports, and I mean EVERY SINGLE ONE, from any third world country, not just flashlights(!), has lowered the public’s expectations on what *they* think *they* should have to spend on something. I don’t give a damn if you’re buying a friggin’ pair of shoes, a bloody wrench, a multimeter, sheetrock/granite/cabinets for your stinkin’ house, et. al. You’ve got your choice of buying USA or “other” nearly every time. We’ve been spoiled by these “artificially” low prices that are the direct result of a de-valued currency and gross exploitation of impoverished people and natural resources. If your conscience lets you sleep good at night knowing that then keep on keepin’ on but quit yer bitchin’ n moanin’ about the stuff that costs more. If the tables were leveled, this topic would never come up!


When you buy from the likes of a company such as Surefire, Fluke, Snap-On, etc. you are buying from a USA company that has drawn a line in the sand and is trying to do their best to support American workers in NORTH America. We should probably just add Mexico as the 51st State! Canada could be number 52. LOL


The seemingly high price of that shiny new E2DL, AZ2, M6, etc. reflects the total cost of manufacturing a QUALITY product within the USA. You either give a poop about that kind of thing or not but a big chunk of that fat price goes to paying skilled workers a living wage, sky high TAXES, EPA regulations, OSHA safety, INSURANCE, 401K, mil-spec materials and R&D. These fly-by-night upstart companies from Asia have nearly none of that to add to their cost of doing business! THAT'S WHY THERE'S SUCH A PRICE DISCREPANCY! Think about what 4Seven’s is actually paying for those Chinese lights that you flashaholics are sucking up like Manna from heaven and consider for a minute what that torch would have to cost if it were made in the USA. And be sure to think of all the dollars you are sending to Chairman Hu. Now after saying all that, if you don’t need that kind of quality, nor give a poop about the "real price" of manufactured goods and/or just don't have the disposable income to shell out for Surefire, then by all means, keep buying your Commiepinko manufactured torches/products, BUT QUIT BITCHING ABOUT/POSTING THREADS/COMPARING THE HIGH PRICES OF USA MADE PRODUCTS!!!


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## 4sevens (Apr 2, 2010)

You sir, Armed_Forces have no clue what you're talking about. Your rant is filled with mis-information, outrageous presumptions and bullish statements. You have no idea what is involved in our design and our costs, neither the process we go through (state-wise) to get the highest performing products in people's hands (thats not marketing, thats the truth). 

You sir don't even know whether the products we sell are putting more jobs in the USA or in China. You simply have no clue, yet you make such bold statements. I didn't come here to debate and I won't even begin to validate your rant by responding to them. I'm only here because you dropped our name and I have to come here to say that you do not know what you're talking about.

Are you in the armed forces? Well, we've had multiple reports from armed forces who requested our products for testing and evaluation. They totally rave about it - NOT because of any origin but because they blow away anything else they have. If you don't believe me I'll start quoting them here in this thread after we obtain permission to quote them.


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## Ecolang (Apr 2, 2010)

Not to mention why should I as an EU citizen care to pay considerably more for something made in the USA. Cuts two ways the nationalistic argument. There are way more people in the EU than the USA.

Not to mention the laughable exchange rate that most importers use - my currency is worth way more than the US dollar and I'm not interested in paying more in my currency than the US$ price.


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## Armed_Forces (Apr 2, 2010)

Oh, I don't have a clue ehh?!!
I've been directly involved in manufacturing since long before you were even a member here! 

Well I probably shouldn't have singled you out directly like that but what I've said is absolutely true. You're just taking things personally and I simply posed the question of what the price difference would be if you had to source your lights in the USA. Everybody always complains about the high friggin' price of Surefire and I get sick of it. There's a reason they cost what they do and what I laid out is the gist of it and that's no bull nor disinformation! And for your info I've purchased from you in the past and will continue to do so! Sorry to get you in the crossfire but what I said stands.


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## 4sevens (Apr 2, 2010)

Armed_Forces said:


> Oh, I don't have a clue ehh?!!
> I've been directly involved in manufacturing since long before you were even a member here!
> 
> Well I probably shouldn't have singled you out directly like that but what I've said is absolutely true. You're just taking things personally and I simply posed the question of what the price difference would be if you had to source your lights in the USA. Everybody always complains about the high friggin' price of Surefire and I get sick of it. There's a reason they cost what they do and what I laid out is the gist of it and that's no bull nor disinformation! And for your info I've purchased from you in the past and will continue to do so! Sorry to get you in the crossfire but what I said stands.


So you're not in the armed forces, but you're a manufacturer?

Let me qualify - you have not clue how my company works, yet you presume to make bold statements that presume certain things.

So I'm taking things personally? You drop my company name and refer to it as sucking manna from heaven. Dollars from chairman hu? You really do have no clue. Theres more dollars retained in the USA - more dollars are applied to workers in the USA than china. You infer that we're a fly-by-night business. I think if you were in my shoes you wouldn't react my different. 

You throw around fiery terms like - artificially low prices - exploitation of impoverished people. Let me ask you this since you're so experienced and knowledgable. How many times have you visited china and observed things with you own eyes and ears? If so, how many cities? And what did you do there? 

One more question, have you ever handled one of our products?

By, the way, I love surefire products. I have the highest respect for their company, their products and the executives that I often wine and dine with. Just because I'm defending myself from your generalization and ranting doesn't mean I agree with the surefire bashing.


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## LeifUK (Apr 2, 2010)

Armed_Forces said:


> I’ve been gone awhile and low and behold, the first thread that gets me in the mood to post is a friggin’ Surefire blah, blah, blah thread that has plagued this forum like a bad case of VD that just keeps on giving.
> 
> 
> Let me break it down for y’all.
> ...



Referring to the Chinese as Commiepinkos is a nice way to offend any Chinese people who might read this forum. I've worked alongside the Chinese, and found them to be very pleasant people. 

As a Brit (I hate the term, but you Americans use it) why should I pay expensive American prices? 

Incidentally the Chinese are probably grateful for the jobs sales of torches creates. It means that their country can develop, and their children can get a good education, and a good future. Our manufacturing sector largely disappeared in the 70's and 80's, and now we survive on intellectual capital, services, and tourism. 

Psst: The Cold War is over.

Another psst: have you seen Dr. Strangelove? Are you related to the officer played by George C. Scott?


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## Greg G (Apr 2, 2010)

Armed_Forces said:


> I’ve been gone awhile and low and behold, the first thread that gets me in the mood to post is a friggin’ Surefire blah, blah, blah thread that has plagued this forum like a bad case of VD that just keeps on giving.
> 
> 
> Let me break it down for y’all.
> ...


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## Armed_Forces (Apr 2, 2010)

4sevens said:


> So you're not in the armed forces, but you're a manufacturer?
> 
> Let me qualify - you have not clue how my company works, yet you presume to make bold statements that presume certain things.
> 
> ...



I've retired from the USAF after giving over 20 years of devotion and duty to this country! Presently serving as a private contractor/consultant with the "Armed Forces", thus the moniker. All the while running a manufacturing business on the side that will be what I continue to do when I finish my present obligations.


Like I said, because you're taking things personally, you're taking things out of context and reading things that aren't there, e.g. the Manna sucking is *from* the flashaholics. I see that really got your goat. I'm glad you liked that. I don't have time right now for a bunch of back 'n forth but suffice to say, I've been to Shenzhen, Shanghai, Hong Kong, Taiwan, Manila, Okinawa, hell, all over Asia/Indonesia! so don't even try to go there. I've been there on duty as well as doing private sector recon. Seen the good and the bad and know it's not like some backwoods dump like you're probably thinking I'm trying to imply. My point is that the political/economic playground isn't nowhere near even and that's why everyone is doing business there. Not just the US! ..and I know good and well that you can get any type of quality you're willing to pay for, not just crap like a lot of people think. I've posted about this before. Never handled one your lights but plan on seeing some now that I'm stateside for a bit. That's all I got time for right now, got an appointment.


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## march.brown (Apr 2, 2010)

If everyone in America buys a non-American torch , the American torch manufacturers will just go out of business ... In the days when Fountain Pens were the ideal writing instrument , the UK had a lot of pen manufacturers ... As cheap imports came into the country after the war , our pen manufacturers had to reduce prices and quality and eventually they went into liquidation ... All the pen manufacturers went bankrupt ... This was not helped either by the introduction of the new-fangled ballpoint pen by Lazlo Biro.

In the UK , we don't seem to have any Flashlight manufacturers so we tend to buy from the most cost-effective source which just happens to be the Far East ... I can't justify spending the high prices asked for American torches when in my opinion a perfectly satisfactory Solarforce (for example) can be bought for about a tenth of the price.

If I was American then I would probably think differently ... I am 72 now and have seen the problems caused by the influx of cheaper goods into the UK.

As far as the American Flashlight industry is concerned ...* Support them or lose them.*
.


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## the.Mtn.Man (Apr 2, 2010)

4sevens said:


> You sir don't even know whether the products we sell are putting more jobs in the USA or in China.


 Armed_Forces' comments remind me of the rants against foreign automakers that seem oblivious to the fact that a foreign maker like Toyota employs more American workers than any of the American auto companies (perhaps combined). Not only do they employ American workers in US factories but also at the thousands of dealerships across the country.

Patriotic chest-thumping is all well and good if someone knows what they're talking about, but doing it ignorantly grates on my nerves.


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## Greg G (Apr 2, 2010)

Hmmmm. Am I an un-patriotic American because I mod my Surefires with better LED's? Sometimes taking out Korean LED's and replacing them with U.S. made ones is what a flashaholic has to do to have a 100% American light.

If I'm taking out foreign parts and repalcing them with U.S. parts that work better, who is the un-patriotic party in this deal? The maker or the modder?

I despise paying a premium price and not getting a premium product. I live in a capitalist country. If a company can't deliver the goods I pay for then I move on. How many chances do you give a company until you realize they can't make you happy?

I don't know. It really pisses me off when someone tells me I'm unpatriotic because I don't I refuse to bend over anymore.

If that's the kind of arrogance American companies continue to show they will go out of business. Let someone else take their place.


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## Mr Bigglow (Apr 2, 2010)

Armed_Forces, you have my vote. You other guys with the remarks about the cold war etc, at such times you are actually using leftist style cold-war tactics to stifle your opponent! :huh: ...which suddenly makes me seriously wonder about 4Sevens, I mean the company- although I submit they do make pretty good flashlights that are worth what they charge for them- just like Surefire does on both counts, only their lights are disproportionately better. The root difference, the socially important one, is that at the manufactoring end the paid value does not return to the workers of one of the companies, and I don't mean the ones in the Capitalist country.

Anyway Lads let's not have the flashlight cold war go nuclear. Coffee and flashlights at dawn, that's the answer!


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## jefierro (Apr 2, 2010)

Armed_Forces said:


> QUIT BITCHING ABOUT/POSTING THREADS/COMPARING THE HIGH PRICES OF USA MADE PRODUCTS!!!



AF I salute you, you are a prime example of what a proud American should be. 



4sevens said:


> You sir, Armed_Forces have no clue what you're talking about.



Shame on you, you are the head of a company and certainly not acting like one, you take to seriously the opinions of outside people that by all means they are entitled to have by right. Chill Out. If you haven't reed the Art of War, it's a nice read and applies to every aspect of life, especially in business.

Jorge


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## csshih (Apr 2, 2010)

jefierro said:


> Shame on you, you are the head of a company and certainly not acting like one, you take to seriously the opinions of outside people that by all means they are entitled to have by right. Chill Out. If you haven't reed the Art of War, it's a nice read and applies to every aspect of life, especially in business.



Doesn't the head of a company have the right to defend the integrity and honor of his company when it's directly attacked?


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## DimeRazorback (Apr 2, 2010)

csshih said:


> Doesn't the head of a company have the right to defend the integrity and honor of his company when it's directly attacked?



Definitely, although they normally keep a low profile to limit bad publicity/feelings.

Imagine PK commenting on all the anit-SF comments that are posted...


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## angelofwar (Apr 2, 2010)

DimeRazorback said:


> Definitely, although they normally keep a low profile to limit bad publicity/feelings.
> 
> Imagine PK commenting on all the anit-SF comments that are posted...


 
Well said, DRB...in those circumstances, they're usually better-off taking the moral high-ground in these situations...

To keep the thread on topic, and before a full scale nuclear war breaks out, I just got my M962, and I definitely got what I paid for (although it was a trade). This thing is sweet! The ano is flawless, all the pieces fit together so snug, with NO play (none of my SF's have ever had any play in them come to think of it)...if I didn't know any better, I say it was one solid piece. No blemishes...nothing...although I do miss the chemical coating they used to put on them to prevent corossion, that gave the inside that gold color.


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## csshih (Apr 2, 2010)

DimeRazorback said:


> Definitely, although they normally keep a low profile to limit bad publicity/feelings.
> 
> Imagine PK commenting on all the anit-SF comments that are posted...



but ahhh, surefire has a much larger following to defend him.. you could still consider 47s a small/medium sized manufacturer.


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## Greg G (Apr 2, 2010)

DimeRazorback said:


> Definitely, although they normally keep a low profile to limit bad publicity/feelings.
> 
> Imagine PK commenting on all the anit-SF comments that are posted...


 

The man has every right to confront a direct attack. Anyone that takes pride in his work would. 

You defend a company you don't even own. Weird huh?


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## Greg G (Apr 2, 2010)

angelofwar said:


> To keep the thread on topic, and before a full scale nuclear war breaks out, I just got my M962, and I definitely got what I paid for (although it was a trade). This thing is sweet! The ano is flawless, all the pieces fit together so snug, with NO play (none of my SF's have ever had any play in them come to think of it)...if I didn't know any better, I say it was one solid piece. No blemishes...nothing...although I do miss the chemical coating they used to put on them to prevent corossion, that gave the inside that gold color.


 
Just curious, will you be installing a Malkoff in this light too?


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## Let It Bleed (Apr 2, 2010)

> . . . the introduction of the new-fangled ballpoint pen by Lazlo Biro.


Thanks march.brown, now I know why they refer to it as a Biro on The Office. I wish the original British version had lasted longer, but I love the American version also.


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## angelofwar (Apr 2, 2010)

Greg G said:


> Just curious, will you be installing a Malkoff in this light too?


 
Yeah, it's call the M90WF (Won't Fit), because malkoff doesn't make drop-ins for this style of light...

I think I'll keep this one stock...it's good enough for the 7k plus soldiers that I worked with over in the sand-box..I guess "I" can trust it too...and the ones that didn't get these issued, bought them with there own money.


You won't see anything like this from other companies for awhile, BTW, as SF has patents on some of the "most" that make up this design...(that's right...they pioneered THIS as well)

Yeah...these are fine..."Stock"...along with my other 25 SF's.

:touche:


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## Greg G (Apr 2, 2010)

I guess I'm going to have to go to Iraq to learn how flashlights really work.


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## Greg G (Apr 2, 2010)

angelofwar said:


> Yeah, it's call the M90WF (Won't Fit),
> Yeah...these are fine..."Stock"...along with my other 25 SF's.
> 
> :touche:


 

Your sigline says a different story. 

Just sayin'.


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## Greg G (Apr 3, 2010)

Just googled an M962. Looks like a 3 cell incan light with a throw lever mount that sells for $460? 


I don't see anything new about that. Maybe the patent is for the advertising employed to persuade people to click on *Add to Cart*?


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## csshih (Apr 3, 2010)

angelofwar said:


> although I do miss the chemical coating they used to put on them to prevent corossion, that gave the inside that gold color.



that's cause they switched from chemkote to chemfilm. the corrosion resistance is still there 
though, personally, I like the gold color


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## Rocketman (Apr 3, 2010)

4sevens said:


> You sir, Armed_Forces have no clue what you're talking about...



It's ok, Mr. 4sevens. I'm going to buy one of your flashlights, I'm sure I'll like it a lot. And I also going to buy another Surefire when I save up enough money. LOL. I think I'm liking this forum.


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## angelofwar (Apr 3, 2010)

csshih said:


> that's cause they switched from chemkote to chemfilm. the corrosion resistance is still there
> though, personally, I like the gold color


 
Thanks csshih! Nice to know, even when enviromental policies change, they still try their best to maintain their standards...but, yes, the gold tint was nice! And the corossion resistance is nice for the long term life of the light as a whole...one of the small details we pay for...


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## Rocketman (Apr 3, 2010)

Mr Bigglow said:


> Armed_Forces, you have my vote. You other guys with the remarks about the cold war etc, at such times you are actually using leftist style cold-war tactics to stifle your opponent! :huh: ...which suddenly makes me seriously wonder about 4Sevens, I mean the company- although I submit they do make pretty good flashlights that are worth what they charge for them- just like Surefire does on both counts, only their lights are disproportionately better. The root difference, the socially important one, is that at the manufactoring end the paid value does not return to the workers of one of the companies, and I don't mean the ones in the Capitalist country.
> 
> Anyway Lads let's not have the flashlight cold war go nuclear. Coffee and flashlights at dawn, that's the answer!



But look. Companies like 4Sevens could, if they worked on it, use US manufactured parts. They could perhaps get Maglite to manufacture some parts. Rather than thinking that we can't compete, I think we should build up again and make things. We must compete in a global market, however. That isn't going away.


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## DimeRazorback (Apr 3, 2010)

csshih said:


> but ahhh, surefire has a much larger following to defend him.. you could still consider 47s a small/medium sized manufacturer.



Definitely, but I am sure that it is in his business plan to expand and become a much larger company.




Greg G said:


> The man has every right to confront a direct attack. Anyone that takes pride in his work would.
> 
> You defend a company you don't even own. Weird huh?



Greg, you are once again showing a lack of comprehension.
I said that he most definitely has a right to defend himself & his business.

I simply stated that companies normally try to keep out of the mud slinging and take the moral high ground, as stated by angelofwar.

I do not find it weird, that I defend a company I don't own, at all. I am a *fan*.
Does that mean that all of the sports fans in the world, are wrong for defending their favorite team, just because they don't own it??

If I ever see a CEO of a company reply to an internet forum complaint, I will laugh. It is ridiculous. Business is business. 
In business, sometimes people make things up about companies they don't like... it is all part of the game.


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## LeifUK (Apr 3, 2010)

Mr Bigglow said:


> Armed_Forces, you have my vote. You other guys with the remarks about the cold war etc, at such times you are actually using leftist style cold-war tactics to stifle your opponent! :huh:



Sorry but you lost me there. Armed Forces made some racist remarks which are out of line with the general forum 'tone'. He also made some offensive remarks about a US company that designs and sells flashlights. And I do not care for your derogatory remark above. I am not a 'leftist' and I am not stifling anyone. 



Mr Bigglow said:


> ...which suddenly makes me seriously wonder about 4Sevens, I mean the company- although I submit they do make pretty good flashlights that are worth what they charge for them- just like Surefire does on both counts, only their lights are disproportionately better. The root difference, the socially important one, is that at the manufactoring end the paid value does not return to the workers of one of the companies, and I don't mean the ones in the Capitalist country.



Our car industry went under despite the company asking us to buy British. And your car industry is in trouble because they stayed with the large cars of the past, rather than moving to more energy efficient European sized cars. Unfortunately relying on patriotism to sell an inferior product (our cars were often quite bad) does not work. The truth is that a product must be good value or it will not sell. Surefire are expensive, but it is up to you to decide whether or not they are good value. They might be, I don't know. 

I take it you don't buy an iPod (made in China), or bathroom scales (probably made in China), or cooking pans (probably made in China), or a digital camera (probably made in China or Japan) and so on. 



Mr Bigglow said:


> Anyway Lads let's not have the flashlight cold war go nuclear. Coffee and flashlights at dawn, that's the answer!


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## uknewbie (Apr 3, 2010)

Well the thread has finally descended into the "getting closed any second" stage I see.

For the _few _here who seem to constantly quote the USA as the prime benchmark of quality manufacturing, I think you need to open your eyes and remember that there is this whole world outside your country.

Germany, Japan, United Kingdom, Scandinavia and many other areas of the world are involved in quality manufacturing of many products, and are well known for it. The USA is not. You guys _generally _seem to want budget, low cost goods.

Surefire may well be an exception to this, and if so then great. I hope that continues.


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## LeifUK (Apr 3, 2010)

uknewbie said:


> Germany, Japan, United Kingdom, Scandinavia and many other areas of the world are involved in quality manufacturing of many products, and are well known for it. The USA is not.



Cough cough. Ahem. Actually America is known for many high quality products. Really Right Stuff and Kirk make first rate equipment for photography. Celestron and Meade make highly regarded telescopes used by amateurs and some professionals. Some of the most highly rated telescopes are made in America. Boeing aircraft ain't too bad either. And American space rockets are supposed to be okay. There is a common theme here. America (and the UK) cannot compete at the low end. So they must go to the high end, where quality and design are paramount, and countries with cheap labour cannot compete.


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## 4sevens (Apr 3, 2010)

DimeRazorback said:


> I do not find it weird, that I defend a company I don't own, at all. I am a *fan*.
> Does that mean that all of the sports fans in the world, are wrong for defending their favorite team, just because they don't own it??
> 
> If I ever see a CEO of a company reply to an internet forum complaint, I will laugh. It is ridiculous. Business is business.
> In business, sometimes people make things up about companies they don't like... it is all part of the game.


Here is what I disagree with you. Two points.

Firstly, whether I express my thoughts to someone in public regarding anything whether positive or negative, it's *my prerogative*, it's my right express myself as long as it's not libelous and doesn't violate the grounds of the medium (the rules of this privately owned forum) - I am exercising my freedom of speech.

Secondly, I have a problem with people who think they can tell others what they should or should not do, what they can or cannot do, what I should say or should not say, what I can say or cannot say? It's one thing to have an opinion about something, it's another to demand, insist, and ridicule as if you own someone. *Who are you to force your opinion on others?*

As I said again I have full respect for the american companies discussed here. But I will not stand by watching while my company and I get insulted with racist remarks and lumped in with broad sweeping generalizations that do not apply to our company. The attacks were specific enough that without my interaction will wrongfully harm my company's reputation to those who do not know the real situation. The directly implications were harmful and down right incorrect. As the attacker has said, he has *never* handled one of our products and neither does he know the specifics about how our company is run, where specific costs lie and even how our products are designed.


Back to the original topic - getting what you pay for has two components. The subjective (or as some call it "emotional) part and the objective, scientific facts related to materials and repeatedly measurable performance.

The second component is relatively simpler - it's the sum of all objective facts and all products available on the market can be compared and measured against each other on the same level as "flashlights" to "flashlights"

The first component is as I said subjective and includes factors like brand loyalty, origin of materials, origin of assembly, where jobs are created, whether someone already has a collection of a particular brand, personal experience with a particular brand, peer recommendations, and all other meta-factors related to the product. People have their reasons and that will vary from person to person.

So do you get what you pay for? Depends what you expect from these two components but it's important to differentiate between two. For some a certain brand is worth every penny simply because the brand is slapped on the product - and that is no less important than someone who appreciates something according to the second component - value in the actual physical characteristics. Both are just as important.

I think if we are to continue this debate/thread in a civilized way, it's important to qualify and preface what we say with these two components.

My early Saturday morning two cents :wave:


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## Nautic (Apr 3, 2010)

uknewbie said:


> Well the thread has finally descended into the "getting closed any second" stage I see.
> 
> For the _few _here who seem to constantly quote the USA as the prime benchmark of quality manufacturing, I think you need to open your eyes and remember that there is this whole world outside your country.
> 
> ...


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## Rocketman (Apr 3, 2010)

uknewbie said:


> ...Germany, Japan, United Kingdom, Scandinavia and many other areas of the world are involved in quality manufacturing of many products, and are well known for it. The USA is not. You guys _generally _seem to want budget, low cost goods....



From my perspective, the low cost goods that fill our stores is not something that I have asked for. I am thankful in many ways because I cannot afford more, mostly, but we need to have more companies like Surefire making high quality goods. I'm not saying that Surefire doesn't need improvement, because Surefire does, but they are a kind of company we here in the USA need more of. I have bought three Surefire lights and sent one back. I'm looking for a third. Must have a medium brightness mode.

And try to remember. America is a diverse culture. The idiots don't speak for me. Although I do come from a line of men who have fought for this country.


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## Rothrandir (Apr 3, 2010)

I've only read a few posts in this thread, but I'd just like to say that I think everyone reads posts and applies their own perspective to what they think the other person is trying to say.

I think the main point of Armed_Forces comment was that America and China do not play on a level playing field, China has all sorts of "advantages" that make it much easier to produce for a cheaper price.
I don't think he should have dropped any names, especially not 4Sevens. 4Sevens is a very reputable company putting out very good stuff and I've met David personally on several occasions. I am a *big* supporter of American manufacturing (and by that I guess I really mean non Asian manufacturing), and I really wish David was having his stuff made in America or another responsible country, but the way I look at it is if people are going to buy lights made in China, at least David's stuff is designed and controlled from the US by intelligent and dedicated people. They make good stuff.

From my perspective at least, buying American has nothing to do with patriotism, I would be just as likely to buy a Swiss or German item. The fact is that these countries are being forced to compete with countries that are held to much lower standards.
People blame American companies for being too expensive, but IT'S NOT THEIR FAULT. American companies are bogged down with all kind of restrictions and inefficiencies that many foreign companies are not, and ultimately the consumer (and EVERYONE else) loses in the long run.


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## Greg G (Apr 3, 2010)

DimeRazorback said:


> Greg, you are once again showing a lack of comprehension.
> I said that he most definitely has a right to defend himself & his business.
> 
> I simply stated that companies normally try to keep out of the mud slinging and take the moral high ground, as stated by angelofwar.
> ...


 

Without insulting you, I will just say, once more, that Four 7's have every right, and even a duty, do defend his company when called out by name.

You may think it silly, that is your right. But you do not get to set the rules of engagement in business from your computer chair.


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## Kiessling (Apr 3, 2010)

As has been said, it is time to close this one for obvious reasons. 

Some of the recent posts are a shame for this place.

bernie


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