# LAPD's new flashlight



## dano (Mar 30, 2007)

Chief Bratton has decided that the LAPD needs a propretary designed light, so they turned to Pelican, designated model 7060.

I haven't seen pics, yet, but it is an LED with a momentary tail cap switch AND a body on-off clickie switch and Li-Ion rechargeable battery. Looks like it's a nylon composite. Head looks a bit awkward, though

As of this posting date, I think the LAPD is the first agency in the U.S. to have a custom designed duty light.

http://video.nbc4.tv/player/?id=86824

http://pelican.com/lights_detail.php?recordID=7060

--dan

CAVEAT:  If you participate in this thread, leave politics out of it...thanks.


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## 021411 (Mar 30, 2007)

I'm pretty sure the light is going to be polymer in nature.


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## davenlei (Mar 30, 2007)

Dano, You just beat me to posting this!  

I saw it on the news this morning. I guess they are switching to a smaller, lighter light because of that filmed incident a year or so ago where they show the officer beating a suspect with their 'large metal' flashlight. So now they are switching to a small, light flashlight to help avoid the flashlight being used as a weapon. At least that is what the reporter was saying.


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## 021411 (Mar 30, 2007)

It looks too blocky for me. I guess it will be useful out in the field. Keeps your light from rolling away.


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## Lobo (Mar 30, 2007)

I can swear I posted in this thread or a similar before, déjà vu?
Anyway, anyone got any pics of it? Sounds interesting, also that they chose pelican and not one of the more usual brands. I might be wrong, but I associate Pelican more with industrial appliances.


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## 021411 (Mar 30, 2007)

If you go to the Pelican link that is listed on the first post you can see pictures of it. The site is buggy though. Scroll your mouse over the squares and a picture will pop up.


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## Gator762 (Mar 30, 2007)

I thought Pelican always made quality lights, and they seem to specialize in polymer lights. Also made in US, so it seems like a fairly natural choice.

I can see the polymer choice, the point was that is isn't so use able as a beat stick. Not sure that is a good idea or not, but they do want to clean up their image, so a Aluminum light with edges is probably not too good and more costly in that regard. Looks pretty good!


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## dano (Mar 30, 2007)

According to some sources, several manufacturers tried to make a light, but they dropped out. Pelican was the only one that stayed in the bidding process and developed a light for the LAPD. 

-dan


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## Strauss (Mar 30, 2007)

The local Police Dept. where I live has regulations on light carry as well. They are issued a SL-20X for the car, and have to provide their own belt carry(small town city police). They as well cannot carry anything as long as a 2D Mag if it's metal, because of the chance it can be used as a weapon. I bought my uncle(who is in my local PD) a Surefire L5 with the V70 holster to carry on his belt. He said all the other officers are jealous and wanted to know where he got it :naughty: Apparently, he has the most bad-*** light in his whole dept


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## qarawol (Mar 30, 2007)

I have seen and tried out that Flashlight back in Dec 2006. It was the prototype. I was at Pelican when a LAPD Personal was there to check it out. 

It is polymer, and I thought the 3-way switch was kinda neat. Tail cap and side body switch = nice. You can turn it on and off from what ever switch tickles your fancy at the time. The head was a bit on the long side so it made it front heavy. Nothing too impressive on the output for I was in their showroom and that was not enough distance to see how far the deep reflector throws out its beam.


I also saw and played with their prototype Big 'D' HID. :rock:

Njoy...


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## PoliceScannerMan (Mar 30, 2007)

Is it a luxeon, cree, SSC? Looked decently bright on the news link.


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## luigi (Mar 30, 2007)

From the Pelican Website:
"In a rare collaboration between public and private sectors..."

I guess this means "It was a pain to develop this light but we did it" 

Luigi


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## maxilux (Mar 30, 2007)

I want one, wich type of LED is it ?
Any more better pictures ?


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## KROMATICS (Mar 30, 2007)

Judging from the nasty blue beam and 130 lumen output I'd say Cree.


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## Mad1 (Mar 30, 2007)

Hmm it looks pretty cool. He said that this light is meant to be able to identify things better, but if it's an LED it won't have a better colour rendition than an incandescent beam.

Something like a G3 would be much better in my opinion.


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## KROMATICS (Mar 30, 2007)

Mad1 said:


> Hmm it looks pretty cool. He said that this light is meant to be able to identify things better, but if it's an LED it won't have a better colour rendition than an incandescent beam.
> 
> Something like a G3 would be much better in my opinion.



You're correct. Take a look at the video. The light they were using before made it easier to see things clearly. The only problem was the beam was a bit too narrow. The new light produces a very blue beam and everything sort of just blends together. The beam is wider and brighter which helps but is offset by the lack of color rendition.

So they can see more but not as clearly.


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## gadget_lover (Mar 30, 2007)

Silly. Just plain Silly.

Daniel


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## maxilux (Mar 30, 2007)

Wow, i see the price, $199,-, this is not realy cheap


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## mchlwise (Mar 30, 2007)

I tried to keep "politics" out of it, per Dano's request, but the other thread was closed. 

My opinion is here:

https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/159509

:sigh:


Edit: Dano, maybe we can have a "politics of the LAPD flashlight" thread (or reopen the other one) in the Cafe?


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## byron8 (Mar 30, 2007)

Here is the link to the PDF, page 9
http://www.pelicanaustralia.com/pdfs/07%20Lights%20Catalog%20small.pdf

I don't know why they chose Pelican except for price and that is why the other's dropped out. It doesn't even have a strobe. It is made of Xenoy resin which is plastic and not Polymer composites like guns. It will probably not hold up to temperature extreams well but the temperature in L.A. is moderate so maybe ok. The slide switch would not be waterproof it seems unless it is a no contact slide switch. It doesn't say it can use regular batteries but only "one" lithium ion rechargable. 1.5 hours run time not enough for a cop patrolling at night it seems if he got to responds to a traffic accident or 2. I had a few Pelican lights in the past and will never buy again. The twisty heads freeze up despite lubricants, switches broke, bodies cracked on me when trying to turn on the light with a semi frozen head. They would have been better off with a Surefire G2Z if they are worried about the cops hitting someone over the head. The new eveready hardcase military would be much better for same price as it has blue light for tracing blood trails, infrared, and I think it has strobe.


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## [email protected] (Mar 30, 2007)

mchlwise said:


> Dano, maybe we can have a "politics of the LAPD flashlight" thread (or reopen the other one) in the Cafe?



Wait untill the UG is back online again and start a thread there.


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## carlsjrman (Mar 30, 2007)

here's a pretty good la times article on the new light:

article


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## McGizmo (Mar 30, 2007)

I assume there was a set of design goals and criteria that drove this light from concept to reality.

When it is all said and done, the light can be evaluated on its own merits, whatever they be. 

It can also be evaluated in terms of its success at meeting the intended criteria. Knowing or guessing at what this criteria might be could be integral to such an evaluation.

The intended criteria and set of requirements themselves can be subject to consideration and discussion if the moderators choose to allow such a discussion. I would guess this is where politics might come into play?!?






At this point, it would seem that little is really known about this light yet it is open to speculation and second guessing.


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## FlashCrazy (Mar 30, 2007)

:::::note to self...Pelican lights aren't good for beating people over the head::::: :lolsign: 


I did find it funny that the Sergeant didn't appear to know how to use the tactical tail switch. He used two hands to turn the light on. At least we got some public awareness of flashlights.


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## Bonez (Mar 30, 2007)

It kind of looks like the head off of an inova radiant series light.......


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## Manzerick (Mar 30, 2007)

my buddy is an LAPD officer and this is due to the metal lights being used as a weapon and the affect on the poeple in the city(blah blah lol). All existing officers who have received an SL-20 can continute with a metal light whereas new pfficers signed a form that they will not use a metal flashlight on duty and they get the Pel in the acamedy.


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## MacTech (Mar 30, 2007)

It's funny, watching the linked news report, my reaction to the new LAPD light was "Meh..."

when the officer was using the incan, aside from being focused in to tight, it wasn't too bad, good color rendition and depth, when he switched to the "angry blue" Pelican LED, i had to stifle a laugh as it just flattened out the reporter and blended him with the background, i actually made out *less* detail with the new Pelican light than with the good ol' Beatin' Stic.....err....MagLite

pop in a good high-output Xenon bulb in that chassis and ou'd have a powerful tool to help our Boys in Blue, as it stands stock, it's too angry blue and it flattens out the subject, *obscuring* details

the screengrabs linked above are great examples of the "LED Flattening Effect"

don't get me wrong, it's a nice light and well constructed, and i do like LED's, it's just that the LED module flattens things out too much, and out in the field, dealing with potential hostiles, being able to correctly identify details on the subject from a safe distance is of paramount importance


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## KROMATICS (Mar 30, 2007)

carlsjrman said:


> here's a pretty good la times article on the new light:
> 
> article



Watch the video in that article:

"He says it's the brightest flashlight he's ever seen... the Pelican 7060 "lead" flashlight"

:lolsign:

The unenlightened can be so silly sometimes...


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## FlashCrazy (Mar 30, 2007)

KROMATICS said:


> Watch the video in that article:
> 
> "He says it's the brightest flashlight he's ever seen... the Pelican 7060 "lead" flashlight"
> 
> ...


 
LOL I missed that! But wait...lead?!? I thought it was supposed to weigh less! :lolsign:


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## redledz (Mar 30, 2007)

haha it does look like a suped up black inova radiant


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## KROMATICS (Mar 30, 2007)

*L.A. police turn to a lighter flashlight*

It's quite clear from the article they didn't do any research otherwise they would have realized there are plenty of lights that already meet their needs. It's a classic case of Magliteitis.


_More than two years in the making, the 7060 LED was born as a concept in the days after the high-profile beating of Stanley Miller by LAPD officers. The car-theft suspect had been chased to a Compton creek bed in June 2004. News footage that was shot from a helicopter and broadcast worldwide showed an officer striking Miller 11 times with his 2-pound, 2-foot-long flashlight. I wonder which one that was?

In November 2005, the LAPD asked manufacturers to create a flashlight like none other. It could be no longer than 10 inches and could weigh no more than 12 ounces. It needed to provide the powerful illumination of a huge flashlight and be extra durable. And patrol officers wanted a special feature: a dual switch that would allow them to temporarily blind a suspect no matter how the flashlight was held. The dual switch is nice but everything else has been done.

At an early meeting, one potential bidder bowed out, telling representatives from the ultimate winner, Pelican Products, "Good luck."
Surefire? Streamlight? Nerf?

Hara said the specifications alone were enough to drive many vendors out. Some said a 10-inch flashlight as bright as a big flashlight could not be made. Oh?

Union officials openly doubted whether smaller lights could provide as much illumination at crimes scenes as bigger ones. Oh really?

The company devised a unique technology that manipulated and strengthened the light beam by using the mirror cone reflector that surrounded the LED. The design gave off significantly more light than even the brightest normal flashlights_._ As opposed to those pesky square reflectors? 


:lolsign:
_


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## McGizmo (Mar 30, 2007)

KROMATICS said:


> ......
> The unenlightened can be so silly sometimes...


 
Wheras the _enlightened_ are so serious, thoughtful and concise; sticking to fact and reason. 

What I find most interesting here so far in the discussion is the sense that LED's are still not viable for real illumination tasks due to their lack of full spectrum output.

It is most unfortunate that the LAPD and Pelican didn't consult with CPF prior to going forward with this light. Bummer.


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## MacTech (Mar 30, 2007)

McGizmo said:


> Wheras the _enlightened_ are so serious, thoughtful and concise; sticking to fact and reason.
> 
> What I find most interesting here so far in the discussion is the sense that LED's are still not viable for real illumination tasks due to their lack of full spectrum output.
> 
> It is most unfortunate that the LAPD and Pelican didn't consult with CPF prior to going forward with this light. Bummer.


Yeah, the Boys in Blue really should be carrying USL's, they won't have to *beat* perps if they can set them on *fire* instead 

I can only imagine the USL training course for officers....
"Don't cross the Beams"
"Why"
"It would be bad"
"I'm fuzzy on the whole good/bad thing, what do you mean 'bad' "
"Try to imagine all life as you know it stopping instantaneously and every molecule in your body exploding at the speed of light"
"Whoa, total Protonic Reversal"
"Yeah, that's bad, important safety tip, thanks Sarge"


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## MarkKLC (Mar 30, 2007)

Oo I always thought the whole point of a big flashlight was to use it as a weapon, so that you're in a dark alley and can quickly use it to strike someone if needed.

I don't get it... so they can use a baton to beat people, but not a flashlight? Is there a reason behind this?


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## dano (Mar 30, 2007)

Quick answer as to why no political drivel in this thread: It's a (hopefully) technical discussion about this light, not about policies, "beatings" anti or pro police talk. That doesn't fit in this thread or in the General Forum.

-dan


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## KROMATICS (Mar 30, 2007)

McGizmo said:


> Wheras the _enlightened_ are so serious, thoughtful and concise; sticking to fact and reason.
> 
> What I find most interesting here so far in the discussion is the sense that LED's are still not viable for real illumination tasks due to their lack of full spectrum output.
> 
> It is most unfortunate that the LAPD and Pelican didn't consult with CPF prior to going forward with this light. Bummer.



Glad you agree. 

It's too bad the LAPD didn't consider the many products already available to them be it incandescent or LED. It's like when people continually get struck by trains at a particluar crossing and they have to fund a research project to see if they need a crossing gate or not.

The article reads like something from 5 years ago. They make it sound like the most advanced flashlight ever produced, boasting about features that we've had for years. It's brighter than a 2D Maglite yet half the size! 

The only thing that makes it interesting is the dual-switch. That's something I've always wondered about. It's still a pretty big light and it has crenelations. Seems like a solution looking for a problem. Nice to see flashlights in the news though.


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## Scott Packard (Mar 30, 2007)

When I saw the news story this morning I thought I'd check out the model here (Pelican 7060) but didn't find anything. On Pelican's site they call it a Pelican M7 7060, and you can Google a lot of discussion from here on the Pelican M7.
The news ran the story again on the pm news. It is disappointing; they make it sound like a spectacularly bright flashlight heretofore unavailable to anyone. I didn't go to Flashapoluza a few weeks back but wasn't the press going to go to that? It seems the light would look underwhelming compared to the ones at that gathering.


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## LowBat (Mar 30, 2007)

Too big, too expensive, and probably yesterday's emitter.


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## Kiessling (Mar 30, 2007)

Has anyone actually checked one out before slamming it?
I mean ...l could be a rugged light with some innovative KISS switching and it might just as well sport a Cree or Seoul ... who knows?

I'd like to know if one can switch it on with one switch and then turn it off with the other ... and vice versa?
And what about primary cells  ?

bernie


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## Art Vandelay (Mar 30, 2007)

From what I can tell, this looks like a very good light. The Pelican website lists it as $200 but one of the news reports called a $100 light. They probably had to give LAPD a discount for volume and all the press this is going to give them. Somebody get one and review it please.


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## 65535 (Mar 30, 2007)

I wonder if the LAPD would ever open their eyes to far superior and nicer lights, the SF G3 is outstanding, its brighter and it is nicer. HOnestly that light is ugly.


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## yellow (Mar 30, 2007)

KROMATICS said:


> Judging from the nasty blue beam and 130 lumen output I'd say Cree.


What Cree lights have You seen in action? :thinking:
I have three bought Cree lights, a mod with a Cree and three town bike setups (mutilemitter, 2 or 3 each) and none is other than *white*. Maybe a bit on the yellow/green side. Same goes for ANY beamshot posted in here.
imho these are luxeons
very ugly, price sucks, but thats an agenciey working on public budget, right? 
Funny they did not use the "baton light" that is said to be the cause for the change. That 9P (looks like one, somehow. At least has the size of an 3 CR123 light) surely was WAY better.


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## KROMATICS (Mar 30, 2007)

Kiessling said:


> Has anyone actually checked one out before slamming it?
> I mean ...l could be a rugged light with some innovative KISS switching and it might just as well sport a Cree or Seoul ... who knows?
> 
> I'd like to know if one can switch it on with one switch and then turn it off with the other ... and vice versa?
> ...



Never said it was a bad light. It's actually pretty nice aside from the poor beam tint. Just that they are making it out to be the most advanced light in the world and that it's pretty clear they went into this thinking Maglites were the benchmark upon which all others are judged. Just read the article.

I'm pretty sure it's a Seoul but certainly not an X0 bin that's for sure. It's just way too blue. I believe either switch takes priority once activated. I'd like to see it with a different material like the "Nitrolon" that Surefire uses as opposed to the harder plastics. It's also quite large considering the runtime. They should have made it a dual mode, at least through the tailcap switch.

All in all a nice light but it could do with a better LED in terms of tint and maybe a high/low mode.


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## KROMATICS (Mar 30, 2007)

yellow said:


> What Cree lights have You seen in action? :thinking:
> I have three bought Cree lights, a mod with a Cree and three town bike setups (mutilemitter, 2 or 3 each) and none is other than *white*. Maybe a bit on the yellow/green side. Same goes for ANY beamshot posted in here.
> imho these are luxeons
> very ugly, price sucks, but thats an agenciey working on public budget, right?
> Funny they did not use the "baton light" that is said to be the cause for the change. That 9P (looks like one, somehow. At least has the size of an 3 CR123 light) surely was WAY better.



At 130 lumens it is most likely a Cree XR-E or Seoul P4. I believe the Seoul tends to be more blue than the Cree even with the higher bins so that may be it.


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## dano (Mar 30, 2007)

65535 said:


> I wonder if the LAPD would ever open their eyes to far superior and nicer lights, the SF G3 is outstanding, its brighter and it is nicer. HOnestly that light is ugly.




A G3 or any 123 powered light isn't a duty light, it's a tac. light, with different uses and tasks. Anyways, imagine the bill to supply 8000+ Officers with 123 cells, three each per Officer, on an hourly use basis.

-dan


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## light_emitting_dude (Mar 30, 2007)

Most departments don't supply batteries. Ours allows us to purchase batteries on our uniform allowance but who wants to spend $ on batteries all year. This is why most police officers prefer rechargeable flashlights. This light looks great. Looks like a Cree beam to me.....my guess


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## KROMATICS (Mar 30, 2007)

dano said:


> A G3 or any 123 powered light isn't a duty light, it's a tac. light, with different uses and tasks. Anyways, imagine the bill to supply 8000+ Officers with 123 cells, three each per Officer, on an hourly use basis.
> 
> -dan



A specially designed version of the 8NX Commander would be nice. If Surefire was one of the companies that participated I wonder what they proposed?


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## KROMATICS (Mar 30, 2007)

Here are some images of the light:

http://pelican7060.com/images.html


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## ErickThakrar (Mar 30, 2007)

Ok, I have to ask this... Did anybody EVER consider a particular attribute of most cameras called "White Balance"? If that camera they were using for the news segment was set for an incandescent white balance, the LED would indeed be likely to appear very blue-ish.


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## Pellidon (Mar 30, 2007)

KROMATICS said:


> A specially designed version of the 8NX Commander would be nice. If Surefire was one of the companies that participated I wonder what they proposed?



An 8NX with 3600 NIMH cells would be killer. Wait. I have one of those. It is killer.

Made the battery stick from a dead NiCd B90.


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## Scott Packard (Mar 30, 2007)

KROMATICS said:


> Here are some images of the light:
> 
> http://pelican7060.com/images.html



One of those pics says the LED is a 1 watt.
So, it's incredibly bad timing that the CREE and SSC came out a few months ago, while the conception date of this flashlight was 2004. It probably was bright by 2004 standards, but with today's 3W CREE and SSCs?
In any case, the irritating thing is the way KCAL9 and CBS2 (approximately identical news stories) hype it.


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## cave dave (Mar 30, 2007)

KROMATICS said:


> Here are some images of the light:
> 
> http://pelican7060.com/images.html



In the spec section it says 4.4 watts. If this light has been under development for a few years I seriously doubt its a cree. My guess is the emitter is a Lux V.


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## Art Vandelay (Mar 30, 2007)

My guess is they meant a Cree XRE running at 1 Ah. That would 130 lumens possible. Somebody please get one and see what is has.



Scott Packard said:


> One of those pics says the LED is a 1 watt.
> So, it's incredibly bad timing that the CREE and SSC came out a few months ago, while the conception date of this flashlight was 2004. It probably was bright by 2004 standards, but with today's 3W CREE and SSCs?
> In any case, the irritating thing is the way KCAL9 and CBS2 (approximately identical news stories) hype it.


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## 2xTrinity (Mar 30, 2007)

Art Vandelay said:


> My guess is they meant a Cree XRE running at 1 Ah. That would 130 lumens possible. Somebody please get one and see what is has.


That's way too low for a Cree or Seoul, which can put out as much as 200 lumens out the front at maximum drive (1A). My guess it it's probably an earlier generation emitter (top bin Luxeon) and they're reporting lumens at the LED. Since consumptoin is reputed to be 4.4 watts, that's about 60 lumens per watt -- about in line with typical Luxeon efficiency at high current. A Cree could produce 130 bulb lumens from less than half the power.



> At 130 lumens it is most likely a Cree XR-E or Seoul P4. I believe the Seoul tends to be more blue than the Cree even with the higher bins so that may be it.


most Seoul LEDs I've seen look VERY blue, Cree on the other hand generally produces LEDs that produce less lumens overall, but more _useful_ lumens in that they are more toward the yellow/green portion of the spectrum -- other than the red component being a little bit weak, I think they're excellent for color rendering. Also, they tend to throw warmer/yellower light out to the sides, so in reflector lights, the hotpsot ends up being a warmer white than with most LEDs.


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## Supernam (Mar 30, 2007)

ErickThakrar said:


> Ok, I have to ask this... Did anybody EVER consider a particular attribute of most cameras called "White Balance"? If that camera they were using for the news segment was set for an incandescent white balance, the LED would indeed be likely to appear very blue-ish.



I agree that the camera makes the blueness bluer than it would appear if we saw it in real life. However, the difference in color rendition between LED and incandescent is still real. Had the camera been white balanced to say daylight, or even to the LED's tint, the incandescent (while showing way more yellow) would still provide better depth perception and color rendition. This is because LEDs emit a white light that is not composed of all of the bands of light equally relative to sunlight (remember those red, blue, green graphs?). 

Regardless, I agree that everyone in the segment was quite unenlightened (esp the sergeant that didn't know how to operate the light "tactically" LOL)

Also, why not just issue Streamlight Stingers? Cheap, reliable, proven. Not cutting edge technology, but hey now theres the LED stinger! Rechargeable LED, perfect for duty use if you ask me.


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## 02Scuba (Mar 30, 2007)

The LAPD can't find there own *** with both hands. These new lights will not help them. Why do we put up with this ?


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## steve_vance (Mar 30, 2007)

PoliceScannerMan said:


> Is it a luxeon, cree, SSC? Looked decently bright on the news link.



according to my contact at Pelican, it is an SSC P4.

And to answer the question above about it being polymer, that was the spec specified by LAPD. The light has a metal section on the housing, up near the reflector, that serves as a heatsink. LAPD ordered 9100 pieces, so the availability for civilian purchase will be June 2007 or so. 

To answer another question asked above, about the original spec being for a 1-watt LED, the spec has been updated and revised along the way to account for development of higher-powered LEDs becoming available. Final selection for LED sourcing was the P4.

Hope this helps.


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## Art Vandelay (Mar 30, 2007)

Cree says "the XR-E produces luminous flux of *up to 210 lumens* at 1A, with* typical luminous flux of 176 lumens*" 176 is probably closer to the the typical measure of a random XR-E off the shelf, and those are not "out the front" numbers.
http://www.cree.com/press/press_detail.asp?i=1169819309344



2xTrinity said:


> That's way too low for a Cree or Seoul, which can put out as much as 200 lumens out the front at maximum drive (1A). My guess it it's probably an earlier generation emitter (top bin Luxeon) and they're reporting lumens at the LED. Since consumptoin is reputed to be 4.4 watts, that's about 60 lumens per watt -- about in line with typical Luxeon efficiency at high current. A Cree could produce 130 bulb lumens from less than half the power.
> 
> 
> most Seoul LEDs I've seen look VERY blue, Cree on the other hand generally produces LEDs that produce less lumens overall, but more _useful_ lumens in that they are more toward the yellow/green portion of the spectrum -- other than the red component being a little bit weak, I think they're excellent for color rendering. Also, they tend to throw warmer/yellower light out to the sides, so in reflector lights, the hotpsot ends up being a warmer white than with most LEDs.


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## GarageBoy (Mar 31, 2007)

The LED is probably fine for their purposes. Most guys drain their batteries so quickly, they're not even 1/2 as bright as the demo one. 

BTW: I was in the hardware store one day, a guy from the hood goes "hey, those are the n***a beater flashlights the cops use" pointing to a 3D mag


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## KROMATICS (Mar 31, 2007)

Is the lens glass or plastic?


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## PoliceScannerMan (Mar 31, 2007)

I wouldnt mind trying one out. Surley one of the 12,000 members here has access to an extra light, Pass Around anyone? :naughty:


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## WNG (Mar 31, 2007)

GarageBoy said:


> ...
> BTW: I was in the hardware store one day, a guy from the hood goes "hey, those are the n***a beater flashlights the cops use" pointing to a 3D mag



ROFLMAO!

I just can't believe LA city hall was allowed to get away with this. Politicising a flashlight, then taking away their 'deadly' MAGs and using tax money to spec out and buy these Pelicans. Neutered light?
Can't they just smack the perp with their issued kobutans?
What's next...spec them to be made of licorice?


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## Robocop (Mar 31, 2007)

Most police departments (including mine) really do very little research at all before purchasing anything for the officers.....I have found there are many financial and personal interests that are involved thus the final outcome is equipment that could be far better at a lesser cost.

The light "looks" fairly nice and I will not say anything about the actual performance without having one myself. I will say that Pelican as a whole do make some nice lights and the PM6 Luxeon is still one of my old "go to" lights and a rugged performer.

For patrol use a rechargeable is a must and this would be a limiting factor if using only one battery pack at 3.7 volts in a luxeon......Imagine the discount they could have had if ordering 9000 lights from Wolf-Eyes in say the 9 volt Raider set up....roughly the same size, rechargeable and incredible performance with the superior (in my opinion) color rendition and throw of an incandescent.

I honestly do not understand as to how such a large Department figured a patrol light had to be a luxeon in order to be small and light....there are many incandescents that do very well and I carry one nightly (Raider) I honestly assumed that LAPD of any would already know about the many lights available however as stated above there could be many other factors involved that have nothing to do with what would actually be better for the officers.


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## depusm12 (Mar 31, 2007)

They should have taken a lesson from LASD and bought the TigerLight. I use mine often and it's too short to be a weapon (FBOP model).
:touche:


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## yellow (Mar 31, 2007)

interresting Pelican informed that there are SSCs used.
If there is some reason there no shot from the front at all within the pics?

Those *specs* clearly show a Luxeon and imho a K2.
That massive front part (with a heatsink?) is an indication for this. Maybe planned for a K2 or a Lux V and just switching to the new and better led?

Should run longer with a SSC (and less blue with a Cree) in the future


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## Art Vandelay (Mar 31, 2007)

Maybe they planned for a Luxeon, then switched to a SSC. Some of the best reviews I have seen are of lights like that.



yellow said:


> interresting Pelican informed that there are SSCs used.
> If there some reason there is no shot from the front at all within the pics?
> 
> Those *specs* clearly show a Luxeon and imho a K2.
> ...


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## boostmiser (Mar 31, 2007)

It looks 'slippery when wet' and blocky. I'm interested in the reviews.


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## 2xTrinity (Mar 31, 2007)

> Cree says "the XR-E produces luminous flux of up to 210 lumens at 1A, with typical luminous flux of 176 lumens" 176 is probably closer to the the typical measure of a random XR-E off the shelf, and those are not "out the front" numbers.
> http://www.cree.com/press/press_det...i=1169819309344


You're right, I was thinking of the Seoul numbers, but even t hose are too low, at I believe 200-240lm @1A (gross). Even a Seoul U-Bin emitter that tests 240 in hte lab will probalby be a bit under 240 real-world, and assuming 20% losses, that's back down to more like 170.

If this is tested to be 130 minimum out the front, then I'd say based on the power specs (4 watts) they'd have to be using a Seoul or a Cree. If it's idealized lumens (based on data sheets) at the bulb, probably a Luxeon. Amazing how marketing spin can basically create a 2:1 swing in reported vs real lumens.


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## Kiessling (Mar 31, 2007)

I just don't get it.

We see a new light from a very resprected manufacturer with a good track record ... a light that was ordered to be plastic by the LAPD, a light that had to be rechargeable and uses Li-Ion technology and can be cradle-charged (looking at the pics). A light that uses the newest most bad-assed LED out there. A light that is a multitude more efficient than incan lights and that has the punch to cut through the night for an extended period of time ... a punch that meake the ghostly blue from past time LEDs a thing from yesterday. A light that has two different switches ... for different situations and people.

And ... what do we see? 
CPFers slamming it. Without even knowing it.
CPFers speculating ... and slamming it in the same time. Without even knowing it.

No one has reviewed or tested this light on CPF .. yet it gets all kind of negative and nasty propaganda.

Why is that?

I am somewhat ashamed of the spirit that manifests itself in this thread. We CPFers who claim to be the "light experts" ... should we be the ones passing judgement on a light in this manner? I think not.

bernie


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## Art Vandelay (Mar 31, 2007)

I think the light sounds great so far. I'd love see a review from somebody who has actually seen one. It seems like some are reacting to the politics of the way this is being sold to the public. In this case it is the LAPD bosses who are spinning what otherwise would be hard to justify, into good press (including pictures in the paper and everything). They could have tried "Sure the budget is tight but there is no better way to spend two million dollars than buying a custom made flashlight for everybody in the department". I don't think that would have gone over very well.



Kiessling said:


> I just don't get it.
> 
> We see a new light from a very resprected manufacturer with a good track record ... a light that was ordered to be plastic by the LAPD, a light that had to be rechargeable and uses Li-Ion technology and can be cradle-charged (looking at the pics). A light that uses the newest most bad-assed LED out there. A light that is a multitude more efficient than incan lights and that has the punch to cut through the night for an extended period of time ... a punch that meake the ghostly blue from past time LEDs a thing from yesterday. A light that has two different switches ... for different situations and people.
> 
> ...


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## byron8 (Mar 31, 2007)

I thought the trend these days was "Off the Shelf" and not custom anymore because of cost, parts and proven reliability and support. They are putting these in the hands of LEO's without being street proven. I and several other's have owned Pelican's and will never buy one again because of problems. The only politics I see in this thing is having a local company design it at the lowest cost the LAPD would want to pay. For $200 who here will buy that light when it is already obsolete and not a proven performer. Not to mention no strobe, etc.


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## KROMATICS (Mar 31, 2007)

Kiessling,

It's not so much the light as what's behind it. 

(A) The hype behind the developement of the light in which pre-existing features that we've had for years are claimed as revolutionary to the flashlight industry. The "A light brighter than the 2D Maglite yet half the size was impossible until now" type of comments.

(B) The idea that a smaller flashlight solves the problem of police brutality. A violent person will use whatever is in their hands. Like I said before, it's a solution looking for a problem.

On its own it's a nice light and I may even get one.


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## Art Vandelay (Mar 31, 2007)

This month makes four years since they said they were going to take "several months" to design a light.


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## LowBat (Mar 31, 2007)

Kiessling said:


> I just don't get it.


One reason: size. Surefire and Streamlight have been making flashlights since the early 90's that can be easily worn on the belt. Gone are the days when you had to grab your flashlight whenever you got out of your patrol car. We also now have easier to carry impact weapons, such as the Asp. If you go further back in time LEOs had to screw on their hats whenever they left the car. The overall trend is to free up your hands, and large flashlights make this a problem. The only real advantage of a longer light is being able to grip it better when you hold it under your arm, and that maybe one reason why the very small Strion wasn't the success the Stinger has been.


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## JAS (Apr 1, 2007)

It will be interesting to see how well this sells to the rest of the law enforcement community. I think the street price will have a big bearing on that. I see quite a few Inova T4s in my area. I imagine the Streamlight Stinger LEDs will become popular. The Surefire L7s prices probably scares a few people away. I don't think that there are that many rechargeable LED flashlights that have a cradle charger. And the ones that specifically have lithium ion batteries probably narrows the field even more. Is the Inova T4 the most similar light in terms of:

-LED

-rechargeable lithium ion

-cradle charger

or are there others with those three specific features?


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## greenstuffs (Apr 1, 2007)

i got flattered by the TV interview, both the LAPD officer and the Reporter had no idea what they were talking about, "brightspot" instead of the hotspot or terms like "throw" were never used. It does not look like the reporters do enough research before they do anything. 

This is a step backwards IMO angry blue and ugly ubber tactical nitrolon flashlight does not make a good combo. No modes, strobe and it may even not have regulation for this POS $200 flashlight. 
Come on this is the ubber hype. 2 bills buys you a M3 =) or 2 9v falcatas. Incan will always have a place with me 
-Le


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## carrot (Apr 1, 2007)

I think this is actually a pretty cool light. Dual switches and in-body charging (right?) for a polymer light seems pretty sweet to me...


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## JAS (Apr 1, 2007)

I agree. If the street price can come down to about $100 for the general public, I think it will sell. I think that a lot of coppers will make the inevitable comparison to the Inova T4 and the Streamlight Stinger LED, and if it is more expensive than those lights, an awful lot of people will pass by this in favor of the other two. One of the big selling points for coppers right now on the Streamlight Stinger LED is the fact that it uses existing chargers. Also, Steamlight is a name that a lot of folks in public safety are already familiar with.

I also suspect that someone at Brigade Quartermasters will be arranging for a Lightsaver IQ Switch Upgrade Tail Cap for the Pelican.

http://www.actiongear.com/cgi-bin/tame.exe/agcatalog/brands3.tam?brand.ctx=lightsaver

https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/154624&highlight=Lightsaver


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## McGizmo (Apr 1, 2007)

> This is a step backwards IMO angry blue and ugly ubber tactical nitrolon flashlight does not make a good combo. No modes, strobe and it may even not have regulation for this POS $200 flashlight.


 
The "angry blue" is quite possibly to some extent due to ambient lighting as well as color balance as has been suggested. Even if the blue tint is dominant in a "neutral" setting, wouldn't this be due primarily to the specific LED in the light and its binning?!?! If the sample had had a green tinted LED would the claim that the LAPD light had a puke green tint hold for all LAPD lights?

In the utter void of information presently known, it is a possibility that the light doesn't have regulation but is there any reason to consider this to actually be the case? (beyond using this assumption as an additional mark against the light)

This project has been open for a few years it seems and it would appear that some are assuming then that the technology as well as LED used is old technology. More assumption and speculation; not necessarily incorrect but is there any information to support this either?

If the void is filled with speculation it may need to be cleared out to make room for fact once fact is known and if it is in conflict with that speculated.

On the lack of modes and strobe, we used to have an active member here on the board who was a flashaholic and homicide detective for LAPD as I recall. He really liked a few of my lights that had two stage switching and basically told me that his quest for the light he wanted had been satisfied. He also told me that it was most unlikely that the LAPD would consider a light having more than one mode because of liability issues. He seemed to be very in tune with the official stance taken by the LAPD and although he didn't agree with it, he understood its roots and accepted it for what it was. I believe that officers have some latitude in personal choice beyond "standard issue" but that standard issue has restrictions and qualifications that preclude more complex and sophisticated tools that may be available as well as arguably more versatile. For instance, it may be that a SWAT team member could elect to use a Gladius for a tactical light but I suspect that the Gladius would not be considered as a standard issue light _*because*_ of its various modes and for that reason alone.

The "three way" switch with momentary or latched on access from either tail or side is a first to my knowledge and it seems to allow two schools of thought to both have it their way. If this was one of the prime objectives in criteria then I can see why a "custom" light was required.


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## reltor (Apr 1, 2007)

I don't see a problem with the switch. Now the cops will have to shoot someone when they don't comply instead of a 11 hits with a light. 

We know whats coming next they'll have to turn in their hard firearms for foam padded ones in case they have to pistol whip someone to keep from being disarmed.


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## woodrow (Apr 1, 2007)

Nerf...Thats who needs to design both great incan and led lights...drop it, no problem...beat a suspect with it..."but your honor, it is nerf!" Great Idea. Think of how much money we all could have saved on broken SF bulbs if Surefire and nerf got together and made a light. You could even loan it to your kids with out worry. A truely great idea!



KROMATICS said:


> *L.A. police turn to a lighter flashlight*
> 
> _At an early meeting, one potential bidder bowed out, telling representatives from the ultimate winner, Pelican Products, "Good luck."_
> _Surefire? Streamlight? Nerf?_
> ...


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## bridgman (Apr 1, 2007)

>>Politicising a flashlight, then taking away their 'deadly' MAGs and using tax money to spec out and buy these Pelicans. Neutered light?

I don't know... maybe they got new LED lights because the Mag's filaments kept breaking on impact  

The new lights have serrations in what appears to be a pretty tough composite bezel and a tailcap switch which allows the light to be held "bezel down". At first glance it seems to me the new light might be a better impact weapon than the Mag it replaced.


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## woodrow (Apr 1, 2007)

In a few months, I like a good # of others here will buy one and post beamshots and know if it is a great light or not. As for me, this light is the beginning of a dream come true. A bright (cree/soul) led light made by an American company. As to the price, what do think Surefire will charge for a couple of ounces of HA-III aluminum with a Cree/Soul in it?


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## KROMATICS (Apr 1, 2007)

woodrow said:


> As to the price, what do think Surefire will charge for a couple of ounces of HA-III aluminum with a Cree/Soul in it?



Same as they do now.


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## Art Vandelay (Apr 1, 2007)

This is not the first Police equipment upgrade to cause controversy (or to be accused of actually being a downgrade) is it?


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## JAS (Apr 1, 2007)

That is quite true. I recall controversy over:

-revolvers vs. semi-automatic pistols

-conventional vs. trunked radios

-impact weapons

-Tasers

etc.


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## PeteBroccolo (Apr 1, 2007)

Is this not the first li-ion rechargeable brought out by Pelican? Maybe that was one of the reason they stuck out with this bidding and design process.

The main question I have about this light is: Why did Pelican and LAPD go with hook-charging? It goes back to the same problem of losing the use of your light while re-charging its battery pack.

I would have thought that they would have looked at either a non-proprietary power source, or Pelican would have designed and built their own brand of 18 mm x 65 mm sized 2200 mAh 3.7 volt protected unregulated li-ion cell and charge, or at least out-sourced and re-labelled. That is the main fault I find with this product, and again just from reading about it.


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## Art Vandelay (Apr 1, 2007)

Do you mean that you can't charge the battery while it is still in the flashlight, and at the same time charge the spare battery, like you can with the Stinger? I'd would think they would sell spare batteries, just so they could sell them, if nothing else.



PeteBroccolo said:


> Is this not the first li-ion rechargeable brought out by Pelican? Maybe that was one of the reason they stuck out with this bidding and design process.
> 
> The main question I have about this light is: Why did Pelican and LAPD go with hook-charging? It goes back to the same problem of losing the use of your light while re-charging its battery pack.
> 
> I would have thought that they would have looked at either a non-proprietary power source, or Pelican would have designed and built their own brand of 18 mm x 65 mm sized 2200 mAh 3.7 volt protected unregulated li-ion cell and charge, or at least out-sourced and re-labelled. That is the main fault I find with this product, and again just from reading about it.


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## Art Vandelay (Apr 2, 2007)

duplicate post


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## KROMATICS (Apr 2, 2007)

Looks like Engadget has caught wind of the story.


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## luminari (Apr 2, 2007)

MacTech said:


> pop in a good high-output Xenon bulb in that chassis and ou'd have a powerful tool to help our Boys in Blue, as it stands stock, it's too angry blue and it flattens out the subject, *obscuring* details



At 130 lumens with a Xenon bulb, you'd probably also have about 10-20 minutes of runtime and potentially burn out/break when it's needed most. (look at Surefire P61 runtimes, and that's running on higher density primaries to boot.)

I doubt that would serve LA's finest very well.

We seem to be forgetting one of the main benefits of LEDs 

Also, since when do we judge color rendition from screen caps of a TV broadcast from a local news camera? I'm sure that's a reference quality comparison. And ALL LEDs have the exact same tint and CRI as that sample, right? 

Imagine a new post in the review forum: "New Pelican SSC P4 light with dual tactical switches, lithium-ion in-light charging and integrated heat sink."

Half the people would be stoked just to see an American manufacturer adopting new SSC P4 technology.

I agree with the others, this seems to be a half decent light that is being treated like the crappiest POS ever conceived. At $200, I wouldn't buy one, but I also wouldn't be burning it in effigy.

Let's face it, though, no matter what light they selected, someone on CPF would be hating on it. :naughty:


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## pilou (Apr 2, 2007)

The most obvious stupidity here is the insistence on a non-metal flashlight, since it is supposedly the fact that it is metal that makes it a weapon. But what makes the Maglites dangerous beating sticks is their weight. A 4D with batteries weighs about 2.2-2.3 pounds! Even a rubber stick weighting that much would hurt like hell. In comparison, an Inova T4 weighs about 9 ozs, or 0.75 lbs, so it is about THREE TIMES LIGHTER.

Their assumption that you need a non-metal light is obviously flawed. So they have a plastic light with an LED that is bluer than the crappiest 0.5mm Nichias. An Inova T4, costing half as much, and probably far more durable, could have been bought instead, right off the shelf. This is called your tax dollars at work. The LAPD bureaucracy is not exactly the brightes bunch. What kind of police department needs a custom designed flashlight? The kind who has too much money to burn.


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## tussery (Apr 2, 2007)

pilou said:


> Their assumption that you need a non-metal light is obviously flawed. So they have a plastic light with an LED that is bluer than the crappiest 0.5mm Nichias.


How about you hold off your judgement on that statement until real beamshots of them are posted. It could be as simple as the white balance is set for incandescent lighting and flesh tone of a person that made the light appear so blue. Infact I would bet on that.


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## vhyper007 (Apr 2, 2007)

In today's world, the police need more, not fewer, weapons. After N. Hollywood everyone was chasing their tails that the police needed more firepower and deadlier ammunition for the shtf scenario. They largely got it.
For any of you who have never been in a situation where an opponent would kill you if you gave him one split second quit pretending to know what a cop needs in what could be the last seconds of his life. Some of you have excuses, LAPD does not.

This forum is from/by flashlight experts with seemingly a fair number of police members. This forum also knows that Pelican is a damn good product and I doubt there is a single member without any Pelicans in their repertoire. It would have been a good idea for LAPD to have consulted with CPF prior to jumping into unfamiliar waters but they did what bureaucracies do, have done, and will keep in doing ad infinitum..

And why? "Because that's the way we've always done it." I would hate to be the officer who had to inform the new widow that her husband was killed because of being vastly outgunned, fired empty, dropped his baton trying to get away from an aggressor, and was not as good with a knife as the aggressor, died because he had an item less than 10 inches, 12 oz, non metal,etc as the only item left with which to defend himself.

This side has not been touched upon and, Dano, if I became overly political please forgive me or repost this but so help me if the MSM, esp the LA Times heard my hypothetical above no one would see a word in print about it. Let a thug(car thief) get beaten and sadly die and bureaucracy wants to reinvent water.

What is next? Removing ball point pens because an officer MIGHT stick a perp in the eye or carotid? The pendulum has swung so far left it is frightening. And the left coast wants to swing it even further.

I, for one and hopefully many others, would like to see some semblence of a return to common sense and an end to knee jerk problem solving.

End of rant.

Regards to all
vhyper

and, yes, I was a cop, so I do have some idea of what I speak.


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## pilou (Apr 2, 2007)

tussery said:


> How about you hold off your judgement on that statement until real beamshots of them are posted. It could be as simple as the white balance is set for incandescent lighting and flesh tone of a person that made the light appear so blue. Infact I would bet on that.



Maybe you are right on the blue tint. But then we are looking at TV camera footage, not something shot with a consumer video with incandescent light mode. Still, I will hold off on that, but not on the rest


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## pilou (Apr 2, 2007)

vhyper007 said:


> IThe pendulum has swung so far left it is frightening. And the left coast wants to swing it even further.



Be careful about senselessly politicizing something like this. It has nothing to do with swinging left or "left coast" tendencies, but probably every thing to do with lawsuits and liability. Yes, it is all stupid, as if a beating-happy cop could not grab something else to beat the crap out of someone. But at the end, the few bad cops have no one but themselves to blame for using mags to bash a few skulls (sometimes of innocents).


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## Art Vandelay (Apr 2, 2007)

About the incident that got this ball rolling. Lots of people assume they are talking about a 3 or 4 cell Mag, even the descriptions some of the reporters give of the flashlight are based on that assumption. 

The DA's office produced a report stating why were not pressing charges against LAPD Officer John Hatfield. They describe it as a 13 inch long aluminum Streamlight. I think that is the Streamlight SL-20X.

http://da.co.la.ca.us/pdf/JSID04-0620R.pdf
http://209.85.165.104/search?q=cache:_do3jZgwjsEJ:da.co.la.ca.us/pdf/JSID04-0620R.pdf+John+Hatfield+struck+Stanley+Miller&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=us


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## ernsanada (Apr 2, 2007)

I emailed Pelican to find out what kind of bulb is being used. The reply was it is not a SSC P4. He thought it was very amusing the speculation that was going on but he would not divulge what was being used.

The Pelican 7060 will go on sale to the public in June.


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## Uncle Bob (Apr 2, 2007)

vhyper007 said:


> This forum also knows that Pelican is a damn good product and I doubt there is a single member without any Pelicans in their repertoire.



No Pelicans in my stable...yet. I've considered them but have gravitated more to Princeton Tec as a line of lights.


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## McGizmo (Apr 2, 2007)

Hi guys,

I received a beta unit some time ago for evaluation. I asked if I could at least offer some type of review here that would be limited in scope and specs appropriately but hopefully at least partially fill the void with some fact and comparitive information. I have been given a go ahead so I will work on this in the next couple days. 

I can add at this point that the light has a constant current converter that drives a Cree XR-E. I don't know what bin is in my beta sample and could really care less. _My_ sample seems to be essentially LED "white" and if anything a hint of warmth in the spill. My eyes are abused and 55 years old so YMMV. The key here is that the tint is a function of the Cree XR-E in a particular sample and not a function of the material used for the flashlight body, not a function of any press release or video sampling, etc. The light is what it is and it likely will improve over time as the LED's them selves improve. 8 months ago, this light would not have been possible, realistically. I believe calling it obsolete because the program itself is 4 years old is a mistake. JMHO.

I'll do some relative lux and flux measurements with a couple other lights as well as some relative beam shot comparisons.

Any opinion I may express will be my opinion; nothing more and nothing less. As to a fit with LAPD's needs or this light's merit in a LEO atmosphere, I leave that to you who know these things; I don't.


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## Art Vandelay (Apr 2, 2007)

That's fantastic. I look forward to reading your observations. I was hoping somebody from CPF would get a look at one soon.



McGizmo said:


> Hi guys,
> 
> I received a beta unit some time ago for evaluation. I asked if I could at least offer some type of review here that would be limited in scope and specs appropriately but hopefully at least partially fill the void with some fact and comparitive information. I have been given a go ahead so I will work on this in the next couple days.
> 
> ...


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## woodrow (Apr 2, 2007)

As someone who has had a T3 (new) and t4 and t5 (old) I would not take any of the three over what the new Pelican looks to be. None of the T lights currently in production even aproach 100 lumans. Besides, Inova can't even figure out how to update an out of date website. How do you expect them to promote their products in a bidding contest. "here are pictures of our old designs. The pictures of our new designs will be out in a few months...you will wait won't you?"





pilou said:


> The most obvious stupidity here is the insistence on a non-metal flashlight, since it is supposedly the fact that it is metal that makes it a weapon. But what makes the Maglites dangerous beating sticks is their weight. A 4D with batteries weighs about 2.2-2.3 pounds! Even a rubber stick weighting that much would hurt like hell. In comparison, an Inova T4 weighs about 9 ozs, or 0.75 lbs, so it is about THREE TIMES LIGHTER.
> 
> Their assumption that you need a non-metal light is obviously flawed. So they have a plastic light with an LED that is bluer than the crappiest 0.5mm Nichias. An Inova T4, costing half as much, and probably far more durable, could have been bought instead, right off the shelf. This is called your tax dollars at work. The LAPD bureaucracy is not exactly the brightes bunch. What kind of police department needs a custom designed flashlight? The kind who has too much money to burn.


----------



## dano (Apr 2, 2007)

I'm going to re-state what I said in the initial post: NO POLITICAL TALK. 

Keep this thread about the light and NOT the reasons as to why it came about, as this will eventually lead to a flame war, and is out of scope with the technical discussion of the 7060.

-dan


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## ringzero (Apr 2, 2007)

pilou said:


> Be careful about senselessly politicizing something like this. It has nothing to do with swinging left or "left coast" tendencies, but probably every thing to do with lawsuits and liability.



American trial lawyers donate staggering amounts of money to elect politicians - including judges - who will be very friendly to the plantiff's bar.

Well over 90% of trial lawyer donations go to one political party. Care to guess which party? Hint: starts with D.



pilou said:


> Yes, it is all stupid, as if a beating-happy cop could not grab something else to beat the crap out of someone. But at the end, the few bad cops have no one but themselves to blame for using mags to bash a few skulls (sometimes of innocents).



Ah yes - it must always be the fault of the cop when someone is struck with a flashlight.

Imagine yourself attempting to arrest a large, powerful male suspect who refuses to submit. Your attempt at a restraint hold fails and the suspect begins to struggle in earnest.

At this point, you may be in a struggle for your very life.

If the suspect overpowers you, he may take your handgun and shoot you dead. If a flashlight were handy, I would surely use it to strike the suspect.

.


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## pilou (Apr 2, 2007)

woodrow said:


> As someone who has had a T3 (new) and t4 and t5 (old) I would not take any of the three over what the new Pelican looks to be. None of the T lights currently in production even aproach 100 lumans.



We don't know how many lumens this LAPD will really achieve either. The old T4 has very respectable throw and the new K2-based one is noticeably brighter. Inova's website is indeed patheticly outdated, however, it seems like they have no problem selling their lights to law enforcement people all across the country.

The fact that so many other bidders widthrew does not speak well to how the LAPD ran this. For a small limited run production, I am sure Inova would not have had any problems fitting a Cree or P4 in a semi-custom LAPD T4.

In any case, I am not questionnning the quality of the light, aside from the tint on the picture that is probably not very representative. Pelican is a great company. It is the apparent need for the light not to be made out of metal that I question. This light apprently weighs over ten ounces, which is a little more than the weight of a T4. But if, as they claim, this LAPD light can survive being driven over, it doesn't matter whether it is made out of plastic or metal. It will be just as hard on someone's skull. Once the light is hard enough, it is its weight that will determine how much damage it can cause. Also, I see conflicting info on the price. is it $100 or $200. If $100, then it is reasonable and competitive with what's on the market.


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## pilou (Apr 2, 2007)

ringzero said:


> Ah yes - it must always be the fault of the cop when someone is struck with a flashlight.
> 
> Imagine yourself attempting to arrest a large, powerful male suspect who refuses to submit. Your attempt at a restraint hold fails and the suspect begins to struggle in earnest.
> 
> ...




You need to read others' posts more carefully. As I clearly wrote earlier, the motivation behind this new light sounds a little ridiculous to me. And when did I say a cop shouldn't defend himself??? And if lethal force is justifiable in a situation, beating with a flashlight, or with anything else for that matter, is also fully justifiable. I am merely stating what seems to be the motivation of the LAPD: to avoid a flashlight from being used inapropriately as a weapon. The key word is inappropriate, meaning this is to prevent inappropriate use of force. What makes it ridiculous though is that if a bad cop wants to be abusive, he can find something other than a heavy flashlight.


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## Scott Packard (Apr 2, 2007)

KROMATICS said:


> Looks like Engadget has caught wind of the story.



I checked Engadget's graphic and checked www.pelican7060.com's graphic.
Pelican's has changed today; Engadget used the old graphic that I had seen and commented about Friday.
The new Pelican graphic now claims a 130 lumen LED, and aluminum cooling fins around the area where the die/regulator would be.
That brings it more in line with the other bright LEDs CPF has been going on about for the last several months.


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## JAS (Apr 2, 2007)

If this light becomes popular, perhaps Pelican will offer this in a metallic version as well as a non-metallic version. I know that sounds kind of unlikely, but Streamlight offers at least one or two poly lights. I think they have a Polystinger and a poly SL-20XP LED, etc.


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## Art Vandelay (Apr 2, 2007)

What would be the advantage in a metallic version? It seems the Cree LED does not have as many heat problems, and the poly model already has metal heat fins.



JAS said:


> If this light becomes popular, perhaps Pelican will offer this in a metallic version as well as a non-metallic version. I know that sounds kind of unlikely, but Streamlight offers at least one or two poly lights. I think they have a Polystinger and a poly SL-20XP LED, etc.


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## Russianesq (Apr 2, 2007)

it seems all the comments are negative.

there seems to be no good points?

what where the specs that LAPD requested that no other company wanted to deal with?


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## PeteBroccolo (Apr 2, 2007)

Art Vandelay said:


> Do you mean that you can't charge the battery while it is still in the flashlight, and at the same time charge the spare battery, like you can with the Stinger? I'd would think they would sell spare batteries, just so they could sell them, if nothing else.


Well, I certainly hope that Pelican comes out with a piggy-back style charger, like the Streamlight Stinger/Polystinger, but again, the Streamlight piggy-back charger is a VERY rare critter up here, and I do not even see them advertised much on the various webtailers.

As far as spending money on a custom light, it sounds like Pelican is giving LAPD a bulk-buy deal, but will offer it to non-LEO at a higher price. That does not sound much different than any deal that the US Army, Navy, Air Force, Marines, Coast Guard, FBI, DEA or whatever other Federal Agency does - one manufacturer's design wins out, the Agency or several Agencies buy a whack of them, then the manufacturer sells to the civilian market.

It actually sounds like Pelican is carrying the R&D cost load on this, and LAPD will benefit from a bulk-deal. In the end, the light-buying public will also benefit as the product comes to the retail market.


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## 2xTrinity (Apr 3, 2007)

> Once the light is hard enough, it is its weight that will determine how much damage it can cause. Also, I see conflicting info on the price. is it $100 or $200. If $100, then it is reasonable and competitive with what's on the market.


I coudl actually see this light as still being potentially potent as a club. The fact that the handle is plastic and the battery is lightweight means that most of the weight is probably concentrated up in the head -- where the finned aluminum heatsink is located. Since the whole thing is fairly lightweight though, that means it can be swung _fast_. I suspect getting a face full of that aluminum heatsink at high speed would still be fairly painful.


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## Robocop (Apr 3, 2007)

Can anyone say if the current version the LAPD will be issued powers from a single Li-Ion cell making it a 3.7 volt set up?


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## depusm12 (Apr 3, 2007)

Robocop said:


> Can anyone say if the current version the LAPD will be issued powers from a single Li-Ion cell making it a 3.7 volt set up?


 
YES from the Pelican 7060 Specs 1 (3.7 volt Li-Ion 2200 mAh) charging time 4-5 hrs, run time 1.5 hrs. Actually if its as good as it sounds I might pick one up once they are available and use it on patrol.


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## 2xTrinity (Apr 3, 2007)

> I received a beta unit some time ago for evaluation. I asked if I could at least offer some type of review here that would be limited in scope and specs appropriately but hopefully at least partially fill the void with some fact and comparitive information. I have been given a go ahead so I will work on this in the next couple days.
> 
> I can add at this point that the light has a constant current converter that drives a Cree XR-E. I don't know what bin is in my beta sample and could really care less. My sample seems to be essentially LED "white" and if anything a hint of warmth in the spill. My eyes are abused and 55 years old so YMMV. The key here is that the tint is a function of the Cree XR-E in a particular sample and not a function of the material used for the flashlight body, not a function of any press release or video sampling, etc. The light is what it is and it likely will improve over time as the LED's them selves improve. 8 months ago, this light would not have been possible, realistically. I believe calling it obsolete because the program itself is 4 years old is a mistake. JMHO.


Interesting. I wonder why their website claims that the LED is a 1W emitter, yet at the same time, mentions that it burns something like 4.7 watts power consumption. The 4.7W figure makes sense given the low (1.5hr) runtime, but so much power consumption sounds high even with an inefficient regulator and 1A drive current. Lowering the current to 750mA (only a marginal drop in lumens, thanks to diminishing returns) and using a more efficient regulator would probably extend runtime to almost 2.5 hours.

Another option is that A light that length (almost 10") could easily fit 2x18650, or 2x18500 and deliver well over 3 hours runtime even at the current fairly high drive current, or well over 4 hours at my reduced spec.


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## dano (Apr 3, 2007)

Russianesq said:


> it seems all the comments are negative.
> 
> there seems to be no good points?
> 
> what where the specs that LAPD requested that no other company wanted to deal with?




I think the main Spec point that LAPD wanted, based upon field eval/interviews was the dual switch.

Most major cities have ordinances and rules that have been passed by their respective city/county councils which outline who the municipality can buy from. For example, some cities will give preference to minority owned businesses, where the business is located, what type of benefits the company offers, etc. Los Angeles has many of these types of rules, and I bet quite a few light companies didn't qualify.

Irregardless, I'm looking forward to trying one out.

--dan


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## yellow (Apr 3, 2007)

I carefully thought about the statements why most in here beat that light.
But I think we are right on doing so.
Being a backpacker (mostly) I think the needs of an officer are quite similar and these do have a much more need for a 
small, lightwheight, easy to carry on belt light.

Sure, that recharge-in-mount feature is good, but that should only add 1 cm / 0.5" in lenght, not more. That head is also a joke and ugly.
All the features can fit into that 9P sized light the officer shows as comparison without problems and would make for the better (better heatsinking! Why do we all use metal flashlights for our mods?), nicer and way better withdrawable light.

That overly large, widened head-with-added-weight product is only a camouflaged baton.

Hey, that is a *ONE 18650 light*, with the size of ... :thinking: ... a 2D-Mag?


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## vhyper007 (Apr 3, 2007)

...when I was on the street I couldn't have cared less about switches on the tail and body. A simple tactical switch was fine. Then again, so was a body switch. You adapted to what you had and managed pretty damn well MOST of the time. Now a strobe function...that would have been the cat's meow.
Any cops/ex cops agree/disagree?

vhyper


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## depusm12 (Apr 3, 2007)

vhyper007 said:


> ...when I was on the street I couldn't have cared less about switches on the tail and body. A simple tactical switch was fine. Then again, so was a body switch. You adapted to what you had and managed pretty damn well MOST of the time. Now a strobe function...that would have been the cat's meow. Any cops/ex cops agree/disagree?
> vhyper


 
Most defiantly I have both types of switches. But I miss my Gladius with the strobe function which was stolen. I may replace it with a Insight H2X Typhoon, (same light but cheaper).


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## jayflash (Apr 3, 2007)

Thinking about Kiessling's observations, the "Angry Blue" may be a more apt description for some of the rant-till-you're-blue-in-the-face posts found in this thread then the light itself. My, we've become a jaded bunch.


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## byron8 (Apr 3, 2007)

Ya, I agree and that's politics at it's max. Local company, lowest bidder, cheapest price, maybe minority owned. I have one Pelican underwater diving light left, the other 3 Pelican lights broke in a short amount of time. The light was designed before they even heard of Cree, Seoul, etc. Don't need beam shot tests for this political procurement junk. Find out how they keep water and moisture out of the slide switch also. Notice on their website under the technical spec. for the 7060 they don't tell you what kind of LED they use http://pelican7060.com/specs.html The Pelican folks were also the only one's available that had time to make a light. The rest were too busy supplying the military with their much more reliable lights and didn't need LAPD business.



dano said:


> I think the main Spec point that LAPD wanted, based upon field eval/interviews was the dual switch.
> 
> Most major cities have ordinances and rules that have been passed by their respective city/county councils which outline who the municipality can buy from. For example, some cities will give preference to minority owned businesses, where the business is located, what type of benefits the company offers, etc. Los Angeles has many of these types of rules, and I bet quite a few light companies didn't qualify.
> 
> ...


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## Size15's (Apr 3, 2007)

byron8 said:


> The Pelican folks were also the only one's available that had time to make a light.


I'm not sure that is accurate for all the other manufacturers.
Perhaps other companies decided that the LAPD specs/desires/attitude towards a dutylight were not consistant with their own.
Certainly you can see that MagLite don't appear to be bothered about going polymer or even entering the standard dutylight size market (Stinger, 8NX etc) - two important features.
Streamlight would appear to be best placed to have a flashlight made to LAPD's specs since their Stingers are almost there as it is.

Just like with Insight Technology's Visible Light Illuminator (VLI) which became part of the SOPMOD Block-I kit, the selection of the Pelican 7060 as LAPD's dutylight could be under similar circumstances. The reality of the VLI was that it was junk and that Operators used SureFire's M95 & M96 WeaponLights instead and SureFires were selected for the next SOPMOD kit.

We have yet to see what the reality of the Pelican 7060 is.
One outcome that could be possible is that since there _are_ existing lights that fit the LAPD specs then Officers will continue to purchase and use their own and in the future the Pelican 7060 will be replaced.
Another outcome is that other companies see the success of the Pelican 7060 and make their own products to compete with it.

The important thing about dutylights is durability and robustness. Officers have better things to concern themselves with than their flashlight. It needs to be able to handle a hard life of constant carry and use.

I suggest the best reviews of the Pelican 7060 will come after they have been issued for 6 months. Officers will have plenty of time to compare them to their existing Streamlight [PolyStingers] and SureFires [8NX's] to see how they stack up.

Al


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## dano (Apr 3, 2007)

I'm not sure what to make out of the overly negative discussion of a light no one has seen, except Mcgizmo.

There's been a few comments as to why they did not "consult" with CPF. Reading this thread, I'd be afraid to ask anything.

I'm very close to just closing this thread, and let it float away. The tone of this thread places CPF in a negative light (no pun intended).

-dan


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## pilou (Apr 3, 2007)

Size15's said:


> I suggest the best reviews of the Pelican 7060 will come after they have been issued for 6 months. Officers will have plenty of time to compare them to their existing Streamlight [PolyStingers] and SureFires [8NX's] to see how they stack up.l




The L.A. Times article someone linked to claims it has been field tested quite a bit and refined based on officer suggestions. But as we all know, once the entire force starts using it, things may look different.


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## pilou (Apr 3, 2007)

dano said:


> I'm not sure what to make out of the overly negative discussion of a light no one has seen, except Mcgizmo.




I may be reading things wrong here, but my feeling is that, more than the light, it is the requirements laid out by the LAPD and the how the whole thing was run that have been criticized. The presmise that a plastic/polymer light cannot inflict serious damage seems wrong to me. So why insist on a plastic body that can be almost as hard as a metal body? 

I think the most direct complaint about the light was the tint on the video frame, and some pointed out wisely that we shouldn't make to much out of those.


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## SQ40 (Apr 3, 2007)

All it needs is a Flashcap and a Low-High Selector Switch and it would be golden.


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## McGizmo (Apr 3, 2007)

[OT] Well I'm pissed! I have a composed post that took about an hour to make and it is hung in a IE not responding window. I switched to IE because of problems I have been having with Netscape browser and CPF. At least in Netscape, I could go in and copy my text to the clipboard if the preview post didn't want to go through. I can't scroll or do any copy with the not responding window. Yeah, I know, my bad for not composing in some other software.




[/OT]

I don't pretend to know the politics, rules and laws that shape the landscape for LAPD. I have no idea how well suited the 7060 is for its intended use.

As an ignorant though, I too have opinions. The light itself is what it is and until we know what it is, we are premature in drawing conclusions on its fit and function for any application. In this thread the light has been claimed to be obsolete as well as state of the art. There seems to be some contridiction there?!?

To my knowledge, the LAPD is tasked to serve and protect as are other police departments. The department as well as its members are accountable for their activities and actions. They are given rules and laws to obey as well as enforce. They are given tools and training to aid them in their duties. A flashlight is one such tool and one of interest to us. Obviously a flashlight, first and foremost is an illumination tool. It would seem that dependability as well as ability to serve its primary role would be paramount. Beyond its primary role, one would assume versatility and viability as a tool capable of secondary functions would also be advantageous. It would seem but then perhaps not. Herein seems to be the rub. Flashlights have been successfully used as weapons and physical deterrants in the past but such a role is now frowned upon. Seems stupid to me. A flashlight with variable output levels and perhaps a strobe also seems more versatile and especially if these various modes were user accessable and easy to impliment. But if the defense could suggest the wrong mode were used then it's best there be only one mode available.







I place the foolishness in rules and laws that cater to a litigious society and are self fulfiling and perpetuated by those who stand to gain; not necessarily those serving and protecting or those served or protected.





A skilled person can use a tool for many functions beyond its primary use and design. I want a skilled person serving and protecting me. Duh! If task completion and work require tools then the better the tools and the better equipped and trained the person doing the task, the better the task is performed. Is this not true?!?! If there are restrictions placed on the tools or the tools are intentionally designed with lack of versatilty in mind then what impact does this have on the task at hand?

A ball point pen is a viable weapon in than hands of one properly trained. It is also a viable life saver (trachiotomy [sp]) in the hands of one properly trained. If I were in a position to be saved by a ball point pen in the hands of one so trained, I would be really bummed if not dead if the ball pont pen were not used because of some rule stating a ball point pen was restricted to use for filling out reports and to be used for nothing else! There are laws that protect us and yet there are lawsuits that insure our demise in many cases. I think it boils down to money and who is the beneficiary? There used to be a saying: "Damn the torpedos, full speed ahead!" Well I suggest a contemporary saying could be: "Damn the lawyers, do what needs to be done!"

I said I would do a simple review on the 7060 and I will do what I said. It is clear for many vocal in this thread that I will be wasting my time and certainly this is something to consider.


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## Size15's (Apr 3, 2007)

dano said:


> I'm not sure what to make out of the overly negative discussion of a light no one has seen, except Mcgizmo.
> 
> There's been a few comments as to why they did not "consult" with CPF. Reading this thread, I'd be afraid to ask anything.
> 
> ...


Dano, 
You're right - this thread is exactly why companies such as Pelican, Streamlight, SureFire, Princeton Tec, Inova, Photon, MagLite etc etc etc don't overtly ask CPF members for advice or feedback.
It is very sad for CPF but it's a bed long made by members and they seem very happy to sleep in it. It's almost as if they enjoy being disappointed or something.

CPF members are their own worst enemies. Nobody but themselves is stopping the various flashlight companies from being part of the CPF community.

Al


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## Kiessling (Apr 3, 2007)

Dito to dano and Al.
I always chuckle when I read comments about the wisdom of CPF and how wise it would be for a manufacturer to "consult" with us. Like hell.
bernie


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## revolvergeek (Apr 3, 2007)

Bonez said:


> It kind of looks like the head off of an inova radiant series light.......



I was just thinking the same thing. Why not just buy everbody Inova 2C Radiants and be done with it?? :touche: I guess that's what you have to end up with if you want some cooling fins in an anti-roll design. The two switch setup is interesting. I am curious how reliable it will be long term. Pelican lights are normally pretty tough lights (I have used a couple incandescents for better part of 10 years on the original bulb!), but MSRP of $199.95 seems kinda high to me. I wonder what street price will work out to be?


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## Art Vandelay (Apr 3, 2007)

I think we should just ignore the political stuff. 

I found this interesting. After WWII some police learned how to use the Yahawa stick, from classes and the book How to Use the Yawara Stick for Police by Prof. F. A. Matsuyama. A Yahawa is a short plastic or wood rod used to hit nerve and pressure points.
Check this link out for a classic Yahawa picture. What the Officers are holding in their hands look like the new LAPD flashlights, but they are Yahawa sticks. Ashley Judd used one in the movie Twisted. http://www.plumpub.com/info/Fun/yawara.htm , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yawara

In the 1970’s the Yahawa stick was shorted into the Kuboton by Grandmaster Takayuki Kubota, who taught the LAPD how to use it. You may have seen these on keychains.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kubotan


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## McGizmo (Apr 4, 2007)

Hi guys,

As promised, I posted a preview of the LAPD light in the review forum, HERE. Since I have a beta version and not a production sample, nothing should be carved in stone.


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## vhyper007 (Apr 4, 2007)

.....
as one who suggested consulting CPF I feel a clarification is in order esp regarding the last several posts.

Obviously, there are people in here whose opinion is worth less than zero. I own up to being one of those from an electrical point of view but not from a usage standpoint. On the other hand there are some people who regularly contribute, editorially and product wise, and most of the more mature(profession and age wise) know who they are. These are the FEW whom I was suggesting when I suggested consulting CPF at all. 

Having read some of the near hysterical rants on this light from God knows whom and with little or no information of that which they speak, I really see why the latter posters said CPF is its own worst enemy.

Out of appreciation for what is good here when did it become this way?

Curiously,
vhyper


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## SaratogaWay (Apr 4, 2007)

Pelicans guarantee has been (for 30 years) and continues to be 'Unconditional Lifetime Guarantee'. Sounds like to me 'byron8' that you bought something other than a Pelican.


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## byron8 (Apr 4, 2007)

It was many years ago. All I know my plastic Pelican lights broke and cracked. Others had the same problem as me. I have been buying Pelican since the 1970's. I don't care about warranty. When I twist the head of the light, the body breaks because of too much pressure on the plastic. Maybe now the quality is better but when I need a diving light it better be reliable.


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## dano (Apr 4, 2007)

I'm closing this thread.

The TECHNICAL discussion about this light can be followed in McGizmo's review thread, posted above.


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