# CR2 - Side by Side



## HarryN (Sep 2, 2005)

*BREEZE TM - CR2 - Side by Side - Pics added*

Edit - 05 Dec 2008

This project has been on my mind again lately. I really like the light it gives, size, etc - That is the "pro" side.

On the "con" side - batteries / cells for it.

One of the fundamental design goals was to have a light that could be used either with protected R cells or primary cells as the power source. Primary CR2s are pretty common, but kind of expensive if you use the light much. If the cells lasted hours it would not be bad, but I found myself wanting to always be sure that I had fresh cells in the light.

For quite a while, AW offered a protected R CR2 Li Ion cell which worked not only for this light, but also for the Orb Raw and probably some other lights. The good side of this, is that having multiple users of a cell will tend to keep it in production. The down side, is that the Orb Raw pulls very hard on the cells, often resulting in only a small number of safe charge cycles. These cells are pretty cheap, so it did not bother me that the RAW is a 'race car" type setup and its consumables cost, but it did bother others. In any event, AW has not been able to get another run of protected RCR2s made in quite a while.

I looked around for a second source and have not been able to find a well protected R CR2. I am also quite concerned about offering a light that will entice customers to use an unprotected Li Ion cell. Certainly there are those who can make this work, but it defeats the purpose of making a light that my kids and wife can use safely.

I find myself with a couple of options
- Change the cell size to 123, which would increase the size of the light (but not horrible)
- Drop the project
- Other ideas - still open to suggestions.

Sorry for the people that have not seen the pics - I am not set up to post pics for this light right now.

Take care

Harry


Edit - 13 May 2007

Hi - Thank you for the interest in the light. I am having some problems with links with my server, so I have removed the pic links for now.

The machine shop I was working with kind of screwed me over on the project, and I am currently figuring out if I am going to move forward at some point of just drop the project. I have literally thousands in this thing, and hate to drop it, but that is entirely possible.

Unless I can figure out how to machine the parts myself, or find a partner with machining capability, the project will stop.

Thanks for your interest and encouragement.

HarryN

I have been working on a side by side CR2 with Lux III and multiple drive levels for a while now. (over a year). The biggest challenge was to develop some small optics with good efficiency.

I will post some pics and details over the next few weeks, and wondered if anyone would be interested in such a beast, or if I should just make enough for home and friends.

EDIT - Added May 30, 2006

Finally, a beam shot. (Thanks to Gadget Lover for his assistance)

The image shows the BREEZE on the left vs. a SF L4 on the right. The lights are held approx. 1 meter from the inside of my garage door. (The funny patterns on the door are from my using the door to clean out paint rollers)

(pic removed for now)

For reference, the vertical distance of the door sections is very close to 0.5 meters.

The central hot spot of the L4 is definitely brighter (more throw - approx. 580 Lux at 1 meter ) vs the BREEZE has almost a constant brightness level across its central beam (approx 300 Lux ). Smoothing out the Luxeon V beam cost some throw but the beam is very smooth - also more squarish than the L4.

More pictures soon.

EDIT - Added May 20, 2006

Just a comment first, I have EDC'd this proto body for almost 6 months, so it has a few marks. It has been upgraded to using a Lux V WWOS driven by 2 protected AW RCR2s.

First, a picture of the light from the side - note the 2 dimes - that is the actual cross section

(pic removed for now)


Now a picture from the edge

(pic removed for now)

Here is a picture of how I hold the light in use - knob down. It is a little difficult to see the clear knob. The hex nut is actually under the clear knob.

(pic removed for now)


This picture shows how the light fits in my hand.

(pic removed for now)


This picture shows the secondary red LED in use as a "marker" light, compared to a birthday cake candle. This LED is rated for 100ma, but is being driven at approx. 25ma. I use this feature to place the light on an obstruction / hole / fire pit when camping. The clear knob assists with 3 D light dispersion and wide angle viewing. It is quite visible in a dark area.

(pic removed for now)


With some luck - beam shots next weekend.

EDIT - Added April 28, 2006

I have changed from the Lux III / K2 to a Lux V - reason - I wanted more light. With the WWOS Lux V, the improvement effect is quite dramatic. The Lux level is not exceptionally higher, but the hot spot is a bit larger, and the sidespill is more room filling, which I like.

Changing to a Lux V means I have to make some changes to the optical system. My bench test of the required optics change was successful, so I have ordered the parts to build up an optic system which fits in the light. Parts are on order.

Changing to a Lux V allows the use of RCR2s instead of ONLY primary CR2s. I purchased some (and a charger) from AW. Received 

On the "high" setting, the discharge is just under the 2 C limit, so I am doing some cycle testing. - in progress

Allowing use of RCR2s and primary CR2s required making a few tweeks to the circuit board - no big deal, just time. Completed

Use of Li Ion RCR2s requires the use of a few more mechanical safety features and added shock isolation. Design change in progress.

There are some body pics in post 53 - As soon as the new parts all arrive, and I have some free time, I will post some pics.
Thanks for your interest.



HarryN

edit 

I should note that I did not pull this off alone. A great deal of help and moral support has come from Gadget Lover, my brother (EdN), and Georges80 who has helped a great deal with the PCB. As you know, George's own designs are sophisticated buck / boost / software based setups, but he graciously agreed to assist me with this board. I think all of these guys like to see others learn.
______________________________
Added 02 Sept 2005

Battery = 2 x CR2 Primary in series
- There are many decisions and balancing acts when developing a light. Power, safety, available electronics components, low temperature operation, timing, etc.
- When I started this project, I was not at all happy with my options in R. cells, 123 or CR2 size, and frankly, electronics - so it is designed to run on 2 each, primary cells, CR2 size, in series.
- To tell you the truth, I am still uneasy about R LiON cells and liability.
- The design can be "upsized" to 2 x 123, which was the original design actually, but since others are working on 2 x 123 and 2 x 18650, I decided to go for the smaller version. (Also my wife has been pushing for a purse light.)
- This was the only way I could have decent run conditions at the higher power levels.

Power Levels = 3
- Currenty there are three power levels selected from a rotary swith
- Approximately 600 - 700ma, 200 - 300ma, and 10 - 40 ma. Still working on the final decisions in this area.

Electronics
- I have done a number of studies of current draw and power available over a reasonably wide temp range.
- I have also looked at this from the standpoint of balancing efficiency, run time, output management, ruggedness, stealthyness (inductor whine and RFI / RF detectability are not acceptable to me ) and frankly, space available.
- Some of you (such as Andrew) know that I have some custom made power resistors which allow for exceptional performance in a very small package. When combined with the correct cell brands, and current draws, these perform nearly as well as many fully regulated designs. (Maybe Andrew will comment on the resistors as he has some of them)
- I know some of you only buy full regulated lights, so I am letting you know this up front.
- The resistors also might end up restricting where I can sell the lights, as they are aerospace grade components. Right now, I am sure I can sell them in North America and EU. Not sure about other places just yet.
- BTW - light will be ROHS compliant / lead free for those that follow that sort of thing.

_____________________________
Edit 17 Sept 2005

Board Picture, courtesy of Georges80. You can see the versatility of this board - as shown at top left - Cree Xlamp white, Cree Xlamp UV (courtesy of icebreak), some Lux III TWOKs, and a pair of the upcoming Lumileds K2s (eng. samples courtesy of Future / Lumileds). (cannot wait to fire up those V bin K2s.)

Also visible, the secondary LED (sort of A2 ish)

The large round object opposite the Primary LED is the rotary switch which is used to select the brightness and other functions. I will post more details in the electronics forum.

Not shown - an extremely good heat path away from the LED slugs.

Just for scale reference, the board is just slightly smaller than 2 dimes sitting side by side, which is why neither I nor George could figure out how to cram an inductor in there.

(pic removed for now)

________________________________-

Added 02 Sept 2005 – eve

Drawings and prints
- I am somewhat old school, and learned to make eng. Drawings before CAD was really used, so my prints are hand drawn. This makes them a little hard to post.
- If you can hold off 7 – 10 days, I will try to post actual pictures of a real proto. This is rev (cannot remember anymore)

General Dimensions
- When standing on tail head facing up
- 66mm / 2.6 in tall
- 36mm / 1.42 in wide
- 19mm / 0.75 in thick

It is a little longer than the minimum that it could be made because I have the cells shock mounted with springs on each end.



______________________________

Added 26 Sept 2005

Hi, There has been enough interest and PMs to have me start putting up a list, and hopefully, avoid drowning in correspondence.

Estimated Pricing for people who like to plan / budgets

Base Model - approximately US $ 225
- flood style beam
- Secondary RED LED
- TWOx Lux III
- Believe it or not, that is not much higher than my parts costs.

Upgrades

- U bin - Add Approximately $ 30

- K2 - Add Approximately $ 60 
(Likely only 2 or 3 of these) 

- "Improved Throw Lens (limited availabilty) 
- Add Approximately $ 50

Cree Xlamp UV - Same as base price 

If the K2 comes out in force before Xmas, I will change the price accordingly.

________________________
Added Nov 06, 2005

OK, a few proto pics.

Very special thanks to Rossitron for his exceptional work here. He has been helping me with this proto quite a bit. He first created a 3D model of the light, found some mistakes in the design, and added some quite good inputs on the design. He then used his "home size" CNC mill to make the parts - It is a slow process with small mill, but nice workmanship, especially for his first try at these parts. The pics are also his.

The finish shown is a straight line finish - just one for this test. The final finish is not yet determined. I had planned originally on a black HAIII finish, but with the special Al alloy that is being used, it might not be needed for everyone.

As you can see, the battery cap on this proto is held on with 2 small screws. The actual screws will have a slot for opening with a US dime. I could not find a reliable, water tight alternative to this, but I am open to ideas. I know that people prefer to not use any tool at all to change cells, but a dime is a pretty common item to have around.

There will be a thin O Ring between the cap and the body. This O ring will slightly show on the finished light due to the lack of available space to hide it.

In one picture below, the light is standing flat on its face. This is actually not quite correct in the actual light. While the optics and switch body are entirely inside the case and front clear cover, the switch knob will stick out slightly above the top lip.

Your comments are welcome.

It appears that around 20 will be available for delivery in December, 2005.

(pic removed for now)


_____________________

Added Dec 21 2005. Sorry for not keeping this first post up to date.
- It looks like lights will start shipping in Late January, 2006.
- The light itself is now called "BREEZE TM "
- The tail cap has been modifed considerably to have a more rounded look (picture soon)
- The enhanced throw optical system is now referred to as the "Lighthouse Lens" Optical System.


_________________

This is an "Interested" list only - no payments are being accepted. I need to have the shipment locations for you to make sure I comply with some export restrictions. I am sorry to do this, but for 2005, I can only ship them to North America and Countries in the European Union (France, Germany, Italy, etc), but (not Korea, China, etc) Perhaps things will change later in 2006.

If you are interested enough for me to buy parts for a light for you, please post as below. If you have already posted an interest, please edit your post to reflect the info below.

Thank you for your support and interest.

HarryN 
Shipment Location US
20 Each - Base Model


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## LITEmania (Sep 2, 2005)

I will be anticipating your NEW invention 

warren,


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## PeterB (Sep 2, 2005)

I'm very interested! Hope it works with LiIons.


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## andrewwynn (Sep 2, 2005)

cooool.. i thought it was going to be 123-sized.. no wonder you had such small reflectors. I can't wait to see it. Ditto on the RCR2. 

-awr


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## fleegs (Sep 2, 2005)

Interested


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## jdriller (Sep 2, 2005)

Interested


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## TrueBlue (Sep 2, 2005)

Interested.


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## MY (Sep 2, 2005)

Unless you are needing more voltage, would not a simple R123 provide more capacity than two CR2s? I have also liked side by side designs though.

Regards.

MY


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## HarryN (Sep 2, 2005)

Battery question now answered in the first post.


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## 83Venture (Sep 2, 2005)

I'm watching/Interested.


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## bmstrong (Sep 2, 2005)

Yep. Cool beans!


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## JJohn (Sep 2, 2005)

I too would be interested. For me the smaller the better. I like it to go easily into a pocket.

John


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## dbedit (Sep 2, 2005)

I am very interested


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## gadget_lover (Sep 7, 2005)

It should be a pretty neat little light. I've seen the mock-up, and I've seen the circuit board that will be used. I'm looking forward to seeing the finished prototypes too.


Daniel


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## Rossitron (Sep 8, 2005)

This is going to be one hell of an output to size ratio light.
Can't wait to see it 

-Ross


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## Christoph (Sep 11, 2005)

Interested is putting it mildly where will I send the PP


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## HarryN (Sep 11, 2005)

Thanks for the kind words. I need to figure out a selling / user interest tracking method. 

I will keep the top post updated as it progresses. George assembled a few light engine boards this week and I will post some pics soon.


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## andrewwynn (Sep 12, 2005)

I have played with a bunch of 123 lights and they suffer from the same problem.. too fat to fit in a pocket! this is what inspired me to make the MiniMIghty (still progressing).. I know that if i grab a light to have with in my pocket it's one of two lights.. the KI CR2 light or one of my Nano's.. the only lights thin enough to consider holding in a pocket.. when i have my 'man purse' with me than i can fit whatever i want including a lioncub or two even with the LionHead (depending if my Palm/GPS is in there or my camera).

-awr


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## Data (Sep 12, 2005)

This sounds great. Please post some pictures soon.


Cheers
Dave


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## Icebreak (Sep 12, 2005)

Very Interested.


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## HarryN (Sep 17, 2005)

Added picture of the fully assembled circuit board and additional information on the electronics.


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## OddOne (Sep 17, 2005)

It's more like who here would NOT be interested? 

oO


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## Ledean (Sep 17, 2005)

Interesting , I love new ideas.


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## Frenchyled (Sep 25, 2005)

The smallest...the best...good work HarryN :goodjob: 
We are waiting patiently to see your progress on this new flashlight  

And my god..another flashlight I'll have to add to my collection, please take your time, like this I'll have maybe some more buck to spend in it 

Ok, count me in for one
Base Model - approximately US $ 225 + shipping to France 

Thanks


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## flashlight (Sep 25, 2005)




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## HarryN (Sep 25, 2005)

Hi - Sorry for the posting delay. I tried to make a feature a little too aggressive in the tail cap, and the wall was just too thin - worked out an edited design last night. 

My plan is to make about 20 of these for family gifts, and another 50 will ship in time for the holidays.

_________________
Edit - added Sun PM

I own all of you patiently waiting a better explanation. About 8 months ago, my 7 year old had a very bad reaction to a medication, and started to go into shock. After the "excitement" calmed down, the emergency room physician told us that Benedryl is a common (but not universal) antidote for a wide range of medications. You can imagine that this has become an "always carry" item for us.

My wife now takes a medication daily, and while missing a dose of two is not life threatening, missing it makes her feel VERY ill. We made the mistake of leaving it at home one time and had to make a multi hour drive home from a trip.

I am trying to design a small "emergency dose" pill container into the tailcap of this light, and it is a very tight fit. It will be a lot easier once I build the "big brother" version of this light in 123, (in 2006) but adding this into the light has been a challenge. I will update this thread within 2 weeks.


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## HarryN (Sep 26, 2005)

Added sign up list info. and a budgetary price. I know it is a little early for this, but I decided it was easier to do it this way than to answer all of the PMs. Please post your interest using the info in the first post. If you have privacy concerns, feel free to PM me and I will deal with it that way.

Thank you for your continued interest.


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## flashlight (Sep 26, 2005)

Might be interested if you can ship to Singapore in 2006.  (and hopefully I'd saved up enough by then! )


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## HarryN (Oct 12, 2005)

Hi - Just a quick update.

The boards were fitted into a proto body after some rather difficult assembly operations. A few design changes should make much easier. Once again, Gadget Lover's assistance was much appreciated.

The K2 definitely has a lower focal point that the "old" Lux III, which causes some interesting effects on the light measurements and beam shape. I need to resolve an assembly issue with the Cree board to test it.

A few quick and dirty measurements / indications for reference:

- Since the board is resistored, a constant voltage source was used to feed the light instead of constant current (set to 5.5. V to match the typical CR2 performance)
- For the same setup, the K2 had approx. 33 % higher lux readings than the Lux III TWOK, at 14 % higher current. The only K2 bin info is "V" bin.
- This would indicate that the K2 was roughly a J bin Vf 
- Using the same 1/2 inch (12mm) optical system (the premium version), the readings were approx 600 Lux at 1 meter with the K2 on "high" (quick measurement)
- The light from the die seems to be more evenly dispersed compared to the "pattern" seen on the normal Lux III.

The new body design is at the machine shop for quote.


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## nemul (Oct 13, 2005)




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## Amorphous (Oct 13, 2005)

Nice !!
Please sign me up. :thumbsup:


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## goldserve (Oct 13, 2005)

Does this mean more and more people are getting to play with K2s? Are they protos?


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## HarryN (Oct 13, 2005)

AFAIK, all K2s are protos / engineering samples at this stage. You have to sign a waver that basically releases LL from liability, and instructs you not to look at the dome or beam. If you happen to look at the emitter when it is on, even 50% power, you will know why. Of course, Lux IIIs are pretty bright when you work with them on a bench as well.

They are not impossible to get, but it takes time - lots of time. Reminds me in some ways of trying to get a custom light after the initial ideas is posted. It is not yet clear to me if the K2 is a lot brighter than a U Bin Lux III or not at sub 1000 ma currents. I guess I need to buy some and try.

The guys at Future are telling me at least late 2006 Q1. Hard to say if some firms will get early productions ones or not.


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## andrewwynn (Oct 13, 2005)

i think i got 'first contact' about the K2 in june.. got my samples like a week ago.. whew.. yeah 'takes time'.. i did get like 3x as many as anticipated so that's awesome. I think they knew what they were doing.. like my first 'drug fix' .. they know i'm coming back. 

-awr


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## nemul (Oct 13, 2005)

anyone please feel free to send a K2 my way!


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## HarryN (Oct 23, 2005)

OK, time for a quick update. This light has very little room for optical components, so I have spent the past nearly year working to build some ultra compact optics that will provide a bit of "throw". (no, not like an Aleph), but much better than you would expect from a 12mm dia setup reflector.

To make sure this all worked out, and to meet various tastes, I had designed one for Lux III, as well as the Cree Xlamp.

I had this pretty well worked out, and actually had alread purchased and received a bunch of custom optical components for this light, about the time that it became clear that LL had changed the die height (and therefore, the focal point) of the Lux III. Obviously, I needed to do some verification of what impact this was going to have. Indeed, it does have some, but it is ok.

This "situation" also gave me the opportunity to test a relatively new, commercial compact optic on the market, and compare it to my own design. For me, it would be very handy if the commercial part worked well, because it is a lot cheaper than the custom setup, requires less assembly work for me, and of course, I can just buy them out of stock. As it turns out, they are OK, but not really that impressive.

So, the summary
a) The new Cree 3 watt
- The beam quality is much better than the 1 watt part I tested in Feb 2005
- The color uniformity is very nice, and the bluish ring is gone
- Availability of a decent tint bin is easy
- The price is reasonable in moderate quantity
- Vf is slightly higher than my bench test comparison (TWOK with some AHs on it)
- Light output appears to be similar to a Lux III
- The optics for this unit need to be very specific to the XLamp, but even these did not seem to have the "throw" of the Lux III with similar optics size / engineering level
- Interestingly, for "flood beams" the Cree part seemed to be better than the Lux III for Lux readings, but only by 10 %, which is within the error of my measurements.
- At least for the optical systems that will fit in this light (so far) , the Cree is not the ideal choice for a light with improved throw.

b) K2 - new die height test bed
- The beam is nice and smooth
- The die images we have seen in the past on some optical systems are gone
- Color rendering is good
- The initial Vf readings have me scratching my head (meaning, I need to re-do this in the future) At 200ma, the Vf seemed slightly higher than a TWOK, but at 700ma, the Vf seemed lower. = (confused or operator error)
- In a resistored light like this, the real issue is not "Lux readings at constant current" but "Lux readings at V bat - resistor - LED Vf." In other words, a high Vf LED, even if a higher brightness rating, may not produce more Lux - so its value declines fast.
- In the particular K2 I tested, the Lux readings were high enough in my custom optics to be comfortable with an initial spec guarrantee of 500 + Lux on "high" - with plenty of room to spare.
- When K2s become available, then that will make for an interesting setup.

c) TWOK
- This LED is at least 18 months old, so it does not necessarily represent the ultimate T bin, but it is a steady performer.
- The expected current flow on "high" is approx 700ma based on the bench tests.
- Based on the readings I took today, I would feel comfortable making a spec of 400 + Lux on "high" with room to spare, with the enhanced optics. (so very close to the center brightness of an L4, but a smaller beam)

With the "normal flood reflector", it produces a very nice, very smooth, wide area beam of approx 80 Lux at the same setting. That may not sound like a lot, but it will light up an entire room just fine, with a near perfect beam.

If you are mostly going to use this light for close up work / map reading, that would be the correct reflector to pick.

d) UxxM
- I have not had a chance to test one of these yet, but my belief is that unless the Vf is in the K range, there is no point. It would not be brighter (maybe just slightly dimmer). Run time might increase, but not by much.
- The availabily of UxxK bin Vf Lux IIIs is almost nil.
- It is possible that once I test this, I could find out that I am wrong (it has certainly happened before), or that the higher Vf will "burn off" after 30 or so hours of running them.

------------

Other news - Rositron convinced me that I really needed to make a 3 D CAD model of the light, as well as making a few changes, so he has kindly accepted a small contract to do that work. Not quite ready to post pics, but maybe next weekend.

Thanks for your continued interest, and feel free to post comments.


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## CroMAGnet (Oct 23, 2005)

Paypal armed and ready,


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## HarryN (Oct 24, 2005)

Cromagnet - I cannot seem to reply to your PM - It keeps locking up - I will try again tomorrow.


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## bmstrong (Oct 24, 2005)

Do you have a pic of the exterior of your light?


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## HarryN (Nov 6, 2005)

bmstrong said:


> Do you have a pic of the exterior of your light?



Sorry for the long wait. Please see the first post now for pics of the prototype. Comments and suggestions are always welcome.

Thanks for your patience.


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## flex76italy (Nov 6, 2005)

Hi Harry,
to my opinion is a very very pocket and useful light, but 2 CR2 Primary in series is not a good solution IMHO, i prefer rechargeable batteries in parallel connection for more runtime.
But i must say i don't know the capacity of CR2 primary cells :shrug:  
It's possible to purchase only the pcb board with switch installed? :naughty: 
:wave:


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## HarryN (Nov 6, 2005)

Hi Flex

The main cost of the entire light is to deal with the electronics board and the very small optical system that goes along with it. In reasonable volumes, the body is not the largest cost of the unit. In small quantities, the machining of such a body is very expensive, so selling the board alone is not going to save you any $s.

I will think about your request, but frankly, the board is very specific to this light's design. The only way this would be useful for you is if I also provided the complete drawings for the light body and cap - and I am not planning to do that.

I am aware of the desire by some to use Li Ion primary cells. Many CPFrs are familiar with the capacity of the much larger Pila type cells which replace 2 x 123s, and have fairly significant capacity. The RCR2 cells are frankly, not particularly useful in high draw applications. I guess my suggestion is that if you are looking for a small light with good capacity with R cells, you should consider a more conventional "2 x 123 in line cells" approach.

This 2xCR2 light I am working on is intended to work under a wide variety of temperature conditions - not necessarily equally as bright under all of them, but certainly able to turn on. This means that in order to operate under very cold conditions, there must be some excessive voltage available when the light is in "warm" conditions. That is the reason for the 2 cells to be in series.

The other light which you might find more appealing if you really like R cells types would be Rossitron's side x side 18650 twin light. That will definitely be a flashlight with some real lighting power, and able to use R cells with substantial capacity.


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## HarryN (Nov 20, 2005)

Hi - I will be opening an official BST thread on this light during this next week.

The length has grown a few mm, but not much.

The planned finish for this run is brushed aluminum. Since the Al alloy I am using is quite hard, it should be quite durable, and this allows for the end user to repair if needed.

Color Tint bins available
- For T brightness Lux IIIs - WO or XO
- For U brightness Lux IIIs - X1
- There is only 1 K2 left (one was damaged by me) It is already sold
- Cree UV's will be used for those interested in that setup. A safety waiver will be required for those who purchase this version. The reason, is that I just do not know what the effect of this light is on a person's vision.
- I am building one with a Cyan Lux III for my daughter in case someone likes that as well, I can make two of them as easily as one.

If you have already expressed interest on the thread, then I have captured your name as "interested", "signed up", or "paid". These people already have a place on the list to continue or not.

I do not have Paypal, and my wife hates ebay and pp, so I will be taking personal checks and money orders. Info will be in the thread. If this causes anyone large problems, please post it in the thread and I will try to find an alternative way of dealing with it.

There are only a limited number which will ship by Christmas. Orders will be filled first, and my personal Christmas gifts will be replaced by something else (or be late) as needed. Probably only 20 - 25 total will be built in this run.

The beam options are "Flood" and "Enhanced Throw". The optical system is quite small, but will provide reasonable throw. Some beam shots will be taken soon. More beam info is in the first post.

Thank you for your interest. Harry


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## Frenchyled (Nov 20, 2005)

HArry, thank you for the news !!!

I can pay only by paypal, so it's a big problem for me 
MAybe, a nice CPFer will accept a paypal payment and will send you a check ?
Just let me know, thanks


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## JimH (Nov 20, 2005)

Harry,

I don't know how I missed this thread. Put me down for 1 light with U bin. Is it okay if I pay you at the get together in a couple of weeks?


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## JimH (Nov 20, 2005)

Frenchyled said:


> HArry, thank you for the news !!!
> 
> I can pay only by paypal, so it's a big problem for me
> MAybe, a nice CPFer will accept a paypal payment and will send you a check ?
> Just let me know, thanks



Frenchy,

No problem. I'd be glad to help out. I live in the same area as Harry and can pay him in person. I only have a premier account so they charge paypal fees (3%) even on a cash transfer.


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## Icebreak (Nov 20, 2005)

HarryN -

The boards on these look like miniature celestial aliens may have done the work.

Did you let us know what alloy you are using? I'm just curious but don't need to know. I'm curious because it's a very nice looking metal. I used to carry a small brass Zippo and I liked being able to refinish it or not. Good strategy IMHO.

Speaking of good strategies. I like the strategy for this light. Some of my lights get the photons emptied out of them every other day. Rechargeables for them. Some of my lights use alkies. Some of my lights are "gauranteed starters" and so they have lithium primaries in them.

Thanks for bringing the CR2-SBS. I'll keep my eyes open for your BST this week. 

-------------------

- Jeff


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## HarryN (Nov 20, 2005)

Frenchy and JimH - thanks for the help.

JimH - I have you on the list.

Icebreak - the Al alloy is one of the 7000 series with a T6xxx hardness. It is almost as strong as mild steel, and about 2 x the hardness of the 6000 series alloys. I will post some data on this for the curious.


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## flashlight (Nov 20, 2005)

Please put me down for one U bin, Enhanced throw. PM sent.


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## Bob_G (Nov 20, 2005)

In case I miss the sign-up thread, please put me down as seriously interested, or almost but not quite totally committed, or really committed but I just can't admit it to myself yet.

TWOK-Flood

Thanks.


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## HarryN (Nov 21, 2005)

Flashlight - pm replied. Thanks for your interest.

For others - please post your questions here if possible. I have cleared out some space in the PM folder to try to help.

Bob G - I will put you down for interested and hold a spot on the list. Thank you for your interest.

The flood beam is a great beam for indoor use / maps. My daugher has a proto of the light which originally had the enhanced throw setup. She used it mostly to read, and it was a bit too concentrated, even at 100ma. She now uses it with the flood setup and loves it.

The enhanced throw optics are better for outdoor use.


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## Frenchyled (Nov 21, 2005)

JimH said:


> Frenchy,
> 
> No problem. I'd be glad to help out. I live in the same area as Harry and can pay him in person. I only have a premier account so they charge paypal fees (3%) even on a cash transfer.



JimH thank you for this help !! And let me know as soon as you need the payment, we just need the final price including shipping, and when Harry will need money


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## HarryN (Nov 23, 2005)

A few pics of a refined proto body. Thanks to Rossiton for his help and CNC machining.

From the battery end.

- pic removed for now


From the front (light engine not yet installed)

- pic removed for now

A few tailcap refinements are in progress to clean it up and make it easier for "Future" features.


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## Icebreak (Dec 13, 2005)

Bump this nice build to top.

I'm a thinkin' HarryN is working out some details. I missed that last photo of the body. Thought others may have too. That's some very nice work.


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## HarryN (Dec 14, 2005)

Hi Icebreak - Thanks for the bump. I have a pic of the new tail cap, but it is too large for this post - need to reduce the pixel count to post it. Nice upgrade.

The project is a behind schedule - I have run into a "December crunch" at the machine shop - they are in such overload that I cannot really get any parts to speak of until January. It is looking more like late Jan for the official sign up list, although I have a tracking list going based on interest expressed in this thread.

I am sorry to anyone who was planning for this light under the tree - now I don't even have ones for my kids either - need to buy them somekind of 2 dollar lights to hold them off.

I apreciate everyone's patience.


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## JimH (Dec 14, 2005)

Late January is perfect. I'll bet if you brought a sample to the SHOT show (9 - 12 Feb) Jon Burly would display it in his booth.


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## PhotonFanatic (Dec 14, 2005)

Harry,

Please count me in for one with a TW0x Lux III, flood version. Thanks.


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## HarryN (Dec 15, 2005)

JimH - Thanks - that is a good idea. I will ask Jon about it. BTW, save your money for the "big brother" version with an M6 head - the body you saw at lunch a few months ago. :naughty: 

Fred - Thanks for the vote of confidence. I am counting on you to find some UWOK/Ls for this project - get me some and I will upgrade yours for free.


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## HarryN (Dec 21, 2005)

Just a quick update - I have been carrying a proto with a K2 and "enhanced throw optics in it for about a week now. All three levels of the "main beam" are working well and are very useable.

The name of the light is now called "BREEZE TM".

I am playing with refinements of the knob design to take advantage of the secondary LED output. I am thinking about making that one a "flasher" instead of "steady on". Any suggestions ?


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## Bob_G (Dec 21, 2005)

I've never been clear on the secondary output - its it always on, i.e. unswitched? 

A slow flash, maybe 3 second cycle, sounds kind of cool if it was always on.


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## HarryN (Dec 22, 2005)

Hi Bob, Thanks for the question.

There are two LED locations in the light, primary and secondary LED.

The primary LED will be a Lumileds Lux III, K2, or Cree Xlamp, depending on availability and end customer preference. The primary LED has 3 brightness levels, roughly 20, 250, and 750ma. The primary LED will be configured with either a "flood reflector" or an enhanced throw optical system, also dependent on the end customer's needs. In both cases, these have been custom made specifically to deal with small form factor, and frankly, are the real technology behind this light.

I will post some beam shots of these in the near future so it is more obvious to everyone what they would receive, but a good estimate is 75 Lux for a flood beam on high, and 400 - 500 Lux for the enhance throw model (about the same as a SF L4). The enhanced throw setup consists of a reflector plus a special matching lens to obtain the enhanced throw. I personnally like this the best, even though it does not have as uniform of a beam as I would like. This was a trade off I made to obtain the improved throw.

The secondary LED is just a small LED mounted on the board. The particular one I am using is a red / orange one, rated at 120ma, and I am driving it at 20ma so far. It is a very low level light, suitable for very close night work, or a marker light. My reason for putting it in there was I was camping with my family, and we were setting up the tent at night. I ended up stepping in the (not being used) campfire pit, and landed on the ground. This would be a way to mark something like that, or I suppose night adapted use.

The light coming from the secondary LED is not all that uniform, and I am working on that, but since it is more for "marking use", I was not so worried about it. The LEDs I have found so far that "flash" pulse fairly fast - several times per second, which is a bit fast. I am continuing to look.

The light is run from a rotary switch knob at the top / front, so you sort of roll the dial between your fingers. The positions are

off - secondary LED - off - Primary High - Primary medium - primary Low - off.

The switch is a very high quality one with distinct detents at each position, butI am considering to add an OFF / OFF position at each end to reduce the chance of it being turned on accidentally. Gadget Lover and I have discussed this, and he reminded me that some people might think that the light is "broken" if you have to turn it two positions to turn it on. (Any coments ?)

I am looking into tritium vials as a way to make them "night findable".

Please feel free to ask questions or comments, I am sure that others are wondering the same things.

Thank you for your interest.


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## Bob_G (Dec 22, 2005)

Harry,

Your thoughtful summary has led to another question 

I'm assuming the switch is not continuous? So there's a stop at either end? So that a user could park it at the "far" end and go off-low-med-high and then back to off? I'm trying to visualize it in use.

As currently configured I doubt I'd use the secondary much. I believe the PD gets something like 40 hours on low at 30mA current regulated, so 20mA resistored would be a long way from the hundreds of hours I'd like, so as to use it as a permanent beacon type of thing. At least at my limited knowledge that's how it seems.

Personally I think the extra offs would be overkill and cumbersome. Flashlights are like web sites - fewer clicks is always better than more clicks  If you think about it, with two offs, if it accidentally moved from one to the other, the user wouldn't know. So then you're in the same position as not having the "safe" one to begin with, as you'd still be one click away from on. And of course, unless you parked it between secondary and high, you'd have to double click every single time you turned it on. To me that's a large penalty for an incrementally small decrease in potential inconvenience (i.e. dead batteries.)

Thanks for keeping us informed. It's fun following the progress of projects like these.


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## HarryN (Dec 22, 2005)

QUOTE=Bob_G]Harry,

Your thoughtful summary has led to another question 

I'm assuming the switch is not continuous? So there's a stop at either end? So that a user could park it at the "far" end and go off-low-med-high and then back to off? I'm trying to visualize it in use.
[/QUOTE]

Hi Bob – Thank you for your continued interest and posting your note.

Your interpretation is correct. The switch is originally built by the factory with 10 positions accessed by one complete continuous rotation. It comes with 2 mechanical stop pins that I insert as needed for the customer configuration, which will limit how far the switch will rotate in each direction. Accessing all 7 positions will required the user to "sweep" through 7/10ths of a 360 degree turn. This is achieved with a dial. 

I hate to make the comparison since we each came to this design concept quite independently, but the rotary dial concept is similar to the Spy05 from Data. This light has the reflector entirely inside of the body and the knob is more subtle.

There are 3 "park" or "off" positions for the light - "off" at each end and the "off" between the secondary LED and the primary LED. I mostly use the "low" and "medium" around the house and my small backyard, and the "high" walking around the park and looking at trees (just testing / playing really).

If you just wanted to use the primary LED, you can park the switch at the "off" position at either end of the primary LED setting. I find that if I turn a light on "high" right off the bat, my eyes like that amount of light, so it is hard to turn it back down. If I start with it on low, either low or medium often work fine.

If you just do not want to use the secondary LED at all, I can just locate the stop pin on yours at each end of the primary LED selector, giving you the off - low - medium - high - off. That would consume only 5/10ths of a 360 degree turn of the dial, and it would not turn past those points. This can easily be performed during final assembly.

The PD is a very well made, single cell light. Don makes very nice lights in general, and the PD is no exception. I have not purchased on yet, but probably will at some point.

Like all single primary cell lights, the voltage must be "boosted" to drive a white LED, which actually causes it to draw more current from the cell than is reaching the LED. As the cell depletes, the cell voltage drops, and the cell must supply even more current. There is also a practical limit to how low the cell can go, and still supply enough voltage to make the circuit work – usually around 2 volts. This is usually fine, as these cells cannot produce substantial current once they reach that point, but at 20ma, the difference can be significant.

There are a couple of interesting things that happen when you use a RED secondary LED which is rated at 120ma with a 2 x CR2 or 2 x 123 configuration and a resistor based design:
- Since LEDs tend to be more efficient when under driven, and I am using it at approx. 20ma vs. its 120ma rating, it is reasonably more efficient than one might expect.
- RED LEDs have a Vf of approx 2.0 V compared to 3 – 4 volts of a white, so they can naturally run when the batteries are almost dead.
- Since there are two cells in series, and only 2 volts are needed for full power, in theory, each cell only needs to supply 1 volt to keep the LED on, although at a diminished level.

I went back and looked again at the Duracell charts for the CR2.



While I cannot guarantee their results, their data is usually reasonable. For current draws of 10ma, their data indicates that the light output would be +/- 10% over the majority of 80 hours, and some light output out to 100 hrs. At 50ma, the flat part of the curve decreases to around 10 hours. With the existing approx. 20ma setting, it will be somewhere in between. I have of course interpolated the data for my own use, but I am not entirely confident that this region of the graph is linear.

I have not found data for lower current draws than 10ma for CR2s, but CPF Milkyspit has built “Milky Candles” which draw around 1-2ma from 123s and achieved multiple month runtimes. He has protos which he told me ran 9 months continuously on a pair of 123s. Of course I am on his sign up list. This kind of runtime starts to rival the value of tritium markers. 

The “flashing” LEDs I use include the flasher circuitry inside or their housing. If I can find one with a duty cycle of 5 – 10 %, that would in theory substantially lengthen the amount of time it runs as a “locator”. Right now, I am thinking about this “flashing” secondary LED as more of a “change the tire” / “put on snow chains” kind of thing, maybe a few evenings at a camp site. 

Please keep the comments / questions coming. They make me think again about the original design decisions that seem obvious to me, but not to other people.


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## Bob_G (Dec 22, 2005)

General question - will the user be able to specify the current for the secondary or is that going to be fixed? Same for flashing v. constant on.

I'm wondering so that I'll have something to think about if it is so. I hadn't thought of the idea that the secondary would light when the primary wouldn't, so that's interesting. On the other hand, it seems to me that with two CR2 cells at 20mA, the discharge curve for a single cell at 10mA would be fairly accurate. If that's the case, then 2mA should be good for ~1000 hours, or more if the increase in efficiency at those level is significant. At 8 hrs a day, that's about 3 months. And of course at a true 1mA it should increase dramatically (~equivalent of .5mA on one cell?) Kind of intriguing, but also, at least if any of this is remotely right, a question the user would have to answer for himself - Do I want an emergency light or a beacon light for the secondary function? Of course if the final setting for the secondary is to be fixed, it doesn't matter.

My thinking right now, assuming there would be a choice, is that since the primary low is quite low, it would light when the others wouldn't, giving both useful light as well as warning of low batteries, so a 1-2mA secondary as essentially a dedicated beacon, would be nice.


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## HarryN (Dec 23, 2005)

Hi Bob

For at least this first batch, yes, the end user can select flash vs continuous for the secondary LED. I am not sure about how long I will do that, as the logistics can be a pain. I am not sure if there will be a second batch or not, it depends on how much money I loose on this one.

At currents of 2 ma or so, perhaps putting a tritium vial in there might start to be in the same brightness range. Would you consider that as an alternative to a very low brightness LED setting ? That makes the run time on "very low" in the years range, without using the cells at all.

I haven't thought about the "end user pick the secondary LED brightness" question. That was a bit more detail than I had planned to offer. I am not so concerned about offering it from a price perspective, as I am about getting all the orders right and the board assembled for each user correctly. (I hire out the soldering to someone that does it for a living, but manually solders the parts) 

It all sounds easy, until you realize that the production yield may not be 100% at each step. So far, it is not, and it is unlikely that it will be in the near future. It is remarkably easy to accidentally get adhesives, etc, where they do not belong, and ruin an entire light engine module. ( I have a K2 light engine module to prove it)


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## Bob_G (Dec 23, 2005)

Harry,

I'm not crazy about tritium vials, mostly for the installed cost, and I don't find them particularly useful, except for say a dedicated night stand light. I guess I was thinking of white LEDs as I've seen several people say they get useful light at vanishingly low current from them. It still seems that a LED capable of putting out useful light at 20mA would, at a lower current, have to put out more light than tritium (in the tiny size normally used on lights - I have a "safety marker" for my dog's collar that I can see from 100 feet or so.) Of course we're talking about red, so not very visible to begin with. So to answer your question, I'd rather have the 20mA secondary than tritium - at least you've got a light of some sort. Hard to read a map by tritium 

I'm just thinking out loud here - postulating stuff for the sake of the argument. The argument being, what's the best use of a secondary LED? I've never seen one on a light I've been interested in before, or any light really, so the idea is new to me and kind of fun to think about. So I wasn't saying you should in any way offer various outputs for the secondary, just using that as a way in to thinking about the idea of a beacon instead of something brighter, especially since there's already the 20mA primary low. I don't know if limiting any potential option to two choices (say 20 or 2mA) makes it worth considering or not. I think the guys that have the most luck with designing small run custom lights are the ones that decide on what they want and leave it at that - you can't please everyone. Just be glad I'm not asking about a different color secondary :devil: I have a green T-bin with a low that makes a beautiful bedroom-ceiling bounce light. Gotta have that last smoke you know.

Oh, it doesn't sound easy to me at all. A FUBAR inside a SNAFU in a box of good intentions, wrapped with a pretty bow of unintended consequences. My hat's off to anyone who attempts it


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## HarryN (Dec 23, 2005)

Hi Bob - If I decide to do another batch, I will likely off it with a different secondary LED color. Not sure about this one.

You will get a kick of this - The project started (a long time ago) as a Birthday gift for my daughter. I thought it might be fun to make a father / daughter flashlight project, sort of like building a model airplane.

I asked her "what colors would you like", thinking "white" and "red" LEDs. Her answer, "Cyan" and "purple" or "pink". I actually tracked down a few purple ones for hers, when ever that actually gets built.

Perhaps I am delusional, but I think that once people actually see the beams, the setups desired will narrow. You might even find yourself wanting the "enhanced throw" beam.

I am going to take kind of a long Christmas break from all of this, so if I don't answer as fast as before, please don't think I am ignoring you.

Take care everyone and happy holidays. HarryN


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## Bob_G (Dec 23, 2005)

Enjoy your family and have a happy holiday season Harry


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## greenLED (Dec 23, 2005)

Looking forward to see your new light at SHOT!


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## HarryN (Jan 30, 2006)

Hi, life has been a bit busy lately, and my 8 yr old has gotten deep into scouting - and so have I. Last week we had the Pine Wood Derby (a car race with cars made from a block of pine wood / gravity run). I ended up building helping my son build his (although pretty much on his own), same for my daughter, who also just had to join the fray, as well as 8 (yes, that really is the number eight) other cars. Our den leader has both arms missing, so I built that one, as well as various help /cutting, etc for other kids with parent related deficiencies.

As luck would have it, 2 of the 3 cars I built took 1st and 3rd place (just not my kids cars ) Anyway, we all had fun, but it took up some time, as has job hunting.

I did have a chance to take the light to the Photonics West trade show in San Jose last week, and ran a few Lumens tests. Using the compact optical system in this light, I had been concerned that it was not as efficient as it could be, but it has actually come out pretty well. A few readings:

ma (approx) Lumens
15-20 2 
130 11
390 30
800 ran out of time

These results were taken on a Lab Sphere integrating sphere calibrated ? to LEDs. The LED is a V bin K2. Thanks to the kind folks at Lab Sphere for patiently helping someone who is not likely to buy a sphere in the near term.

More info and pics will be coming in Feb. Yes, I know I am behind schedule, but then again, I haven't taken anyones money, so Scouts came first.


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## jar3ds (Mar 13, 2006)

woah! very interested in this light! awesome idea! love more pics and info!


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## HarryN (Mar 14, 2006)

Thanks for the interest. I have been EDC ing a proto, and playing more with optics and LED selection. The version I am carrying right now has a Lux V WWOS in it, which is a lot more flood, less throw, but way more run time. (it is under driven) 

Life has been a bit busy, so this has project is a bit behind schedule, but still active. Improving my employment situation has been slightly higher on my list. Some more pics will come in the next 2 weeks.


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## russtang (Mar 16, 2006)




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## jar3ds (Mar 16, 2006)

good idea to use a luxV... i always thought that a 2 cr2 tube (not side by side) running a luxV would be an awesome light...

i think the only thing that may bother me about the design is having the switch exposed... i LOVE the idea of a primary and secondary LED... makes so much sense...

can we see some pictures?! Thanks!


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## HarryN (Mar 17, 2006)

There are some proto pics in the first post. More are coming.


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## jar3ds (Mar 24, 2006)

waiting with eager eyes


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## Lunarmodule (Mar 29, 2006)

Hi Harry!

I'm SO interested in a WW0S version of this light. How soon until you have versions available to sell? I'm chomping at the bit for this design since I first encountered you on the series LiIon to power MN21 battery tube thread months ago. Cant wait to see this available! Great work! Love the side by side!


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## HarryN (Mar 29, 2006)

Hi - I am studying which version is the way to go as we speak.

I have tried the K2 V and U bins, as well as the Lux III TWOKs. As far as I can tell, a U bin K2 is more or less the same result as a Lux III TWOK (which makes sense) except that I cannot spec tint on K2s.

The V bin K2 is brighter, but no so much that it really impressed me over a Lux III. I could easily see all over my attic, to the furthest reaches, so that was very nice. The Lux readings were fine, but I just wanted more light so I can actually have a chance to impress JimH.

I am experimenting with a WWOS version (carrying it EDC now). It will run on primary CR2s and give 3 levels, and be underdriven - so very efficient, but there is more beam spread and a lower Lux level than the Lux III / K2 version.

It also needs a slight (but expensive) optical assembly change, so I am in the middle of obtaining some new parts. I spend way to much on development of this thing.

The WWOS design should allow for RCR2 use (at least under emergency conditions), but only 2 brightness levels vs 3 with primaries. The RCR2s will really bring it alive for brightness, but also, it will be running 5 + watts of heat through a relatively small light, which might be a bit warm - so that is why I am thinking of releasing the RCR2 aspect for emergency use only.

Of course, what someone does with products they own is up to them, I can only suggest things.

I will be buying some RCR2s and a charger from AW very soon and get the testing done. I am also adding a few safety features to better manage the RCR2 aspects.

Sorry for the wait. I think sometime in May is realistic for early shipments. If you have posted an interest in this thread, I have you on my list.


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## Archangel (Mar 29, 2006)

A WWOS version sounds pretty interesting. (smirk) If only because nearly every pocket torch released these days is using TWOH. Definitely add me ye olde list.


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## JimH (Mar 29, 2006)

HarryN said:


> The Lux readings were fine, but I just wanted more light so I can actually have a chance to impress JimH.


It's already pretty impressive, but if you could find a way to power it with a nuclear fusion fuel cell, that would really get my attention. :laughing:


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## jar3ds (Apr 27, 2006)

is this project dying ?


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## HarryN (Apr 27, 2006)

Hi Jar

Thanks for the bump. No, the project is not dying, but I have made some design changes, which are taking a little bit of time, testing and money.

I have changed from the Lux III / K2 to a Lux V - reason - I wanted more light. With the WWOS Lux V, the improvement effect is quite dramatic. The Lux level is not exceptionally higher, but the hot spot is a bit larger, and the sidespill is more room filling, which I like.

Changing to a Lux V means I have to make some changes to the optical system. My bench test of the required optics change was successful, so I have ordered the parts to build up an optic system which fits in the light. Parts are on order.

Changing to a Lux V allows the use of RCR2s instead of ONLY primary CR2s. I purchased some (and a charger) from AW. Received 

On the "high" setting, the discharge is just under the 2 C limit, so I am doing some cycle testing. - in progress

Allowing use of RCR2s and primary CR2s required making a few tweeks to the circuit board - no big deal, just time. Completed

Use of Li Ion RCR2s requires the use of a few more mechanical safety features and added shock isolation. Design change in progress.

$s spent on just the changes listed here on the proto - around $ 300. Since this is somewhat of a hobby project, I can only throw so much at it at a time, as I am doing this all out of pocket.

There are some body pics in post 53 - As soon as the new parts all arrive, and I have some free time, I will post some pics.
Thanks for your interest.

HarryN


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## Cmoore (Apr 27, 2006)

Thanks for the update HarryN. Please keep us posted on progress. I and I'm sure several others are quite interested in this project. I've not considered buying a Lux V in a long time -- you have stirred my interest again.

Cheers,
Charlie


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## Archangel (Apr 27, 2006)

(grin) I'm one of the others...


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## jar3ds (Apr 27, 2006)

awesome! i love LuxV's... the beam pattern that you discribe is exactly why i like it too ...

using rc2 and rcr2's really will make this thing much more appealing... looking forward to the news! ...

(BTW pictures really help the waiting process, even if there just simple ones  )


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## russtang (Apr 30, 2006)




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## Rudi (Apr 30, 2006)

Fascinating to follow the progress of this light.


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## russtang (May 10, 2006)

anything new?


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## HarryN (May 11, 2006)

Some new parts for cleaning up the 5 watt version are almost in. I made a mistake (basic geometry error). New parts are on order.

I am hoping to post some proto pics and beam shots within 10 days.

In the first post, I added a few pics of the tail cap - a bit old, but I realized that I had not posted them on CPF.

I have been EDCg it with 2 x AW RCR2s + WWOS Lux V. I personally like it, but then again, I am pretty biased.  

Thanks for the bump.


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## HarryN (May 21, 2006)

Just a comment first, I have EDC'd this proto body for almost 6 months, so it has a few marks. It has been upgraded to using a Lux V WWOS driven by 2 protected AW RCR2s.

First, a picture of the light from the side - note the 2 dimes - that is the actual cross section.


Now a picture from the edge


Here is a picture of how I hold the light in use - knob down. It is a little difficult to see the clear knob. The hex nut is actually under the clear knob.

This picture shows how the light fits in my hand.



This picture shows the secondary red LED in use as a "marker" light, compared to a birthday cake candle. This LED is rated for 100ma, but is being driven at approx. 25ma. I use this feature to place the light on an obstruction / hole / fire pit when camping. The clear knob assists with 3 D light dispersion and wide angle viewing. It is quite visible in a dark area.


With some luck - beam shots next weekend.


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## HarryN (May 22, 2006)

pictures added to last and first post.


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## gadget_lover (May 23, 2006)

It's looking nice Harry. 

That blue seal at the tailcap looks even better than you said. Is the knob the final configuration?

Daniel


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## HarryN (May 25, 2006)

Hi Daniel - sorry for the long wait to reply.

The clear knob is my current planned implementation. The nice thing is that it is a standard 1/8 in dia shaft with a flat - so there are literally hundreds of knobs out there for anyone who wants to change it. Most are $ 1 - 5.

The blue O ring seal does look nice - actually makes for a nice break in the design. The actual purpose was not aesthetic, but technical. That O ring is mil spec fluorinated silicone rubber. It is gas permeable, but liquid tight so it will vent small amounts of gas from the cells without build up. Last but not least, it is designed to hold tight against outside water pressure, but will blow out if a cell decides to "vent", preventing the light from becoming a bomb.

The special O ring design is a very handy safety feature, esp. for R cells, but I don't think it will become too common - those O rings cost more than some flashlights at target.


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## andrewwynn (May 25, 2006)

this is such a great little light.. are you already taking a sign-up list, or even planning a production run of a particular quantity? i totally can't remember.. (betting it's on post 1)  the latest prototype doesn't look prototype-ish anymore.. it'd just a beautiful finished light.

-awr


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## karlthev (May 25, 2006)

Hmmm....just saw this thread this morning! Very nice although I will admit, I didn't get the time to read the entire piece. If there is a sign up list though, I'd sure like to be on it.


Karl


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## flashlight (May 25, 2006)

HarryN said:


> Hi Daniel - sorry for the long wait to reply.
> 
> The clear knob is my current planned implementation. The nice thing is that it is a standard 1/8 in dia shaft with a flat - so there are literally hundreds of knobs out there for anyone who wants to change it. Most are $ 1 - 5.
> 
> ...



So will the blue O ring be included in the final production light or availabe as an option/upgrade?


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## HarryN (May 25, 2006)

Hi

Flashlight - The blue mil spec o rings are standard. I consider it to be a safety feature. You can think of them as a passive venting system. I don't want any fellow flashlight buddies to get hurt from flying metal parts.

Another safety mechanism are the protection in the AW protected RCR2s. This Li Ion cell is the only one currently approved for use. If anyone finds another supplier, I will test it. Nother wrong with AW, just nice to have more than one supplier for cells.

There have been reports of a similar light (the SF X200) where the owners can hardly open them if they are closed without cells in them. (due to suction) This design eliminates that problem.

Not shown in the pics, but recently added internally are some elastomer parts which act as shock absorbers for the cells. I am approaching the Li Ion cell aspect very carefully.

Karlthev - Thanks - The first post is relatively up to date. As far as a sign up list, anyone who has posted in this thread (and in another forum) and expressed any interest at all I am putting in an off line spreadsheet in a column marked "interest expressed". No committment of course.

Andrew - thanks for the comments. I have purchased 25 Lux V WWOS emitters and am slowly accumulating the parts for a 25 light batch. People should consider these home made protos / engineering samples - not a production quality light.

Some of these lights are already committed to family (wife, etc) I have the gold plated PCBs and other electronics to build more (you know how PCB guys are with economy of scale orders). I also have plenty of the custom made reflectors.

I am not really sure how much demand there actually will be. I might try to firm this number up by asking for a down payment of $ 50 - 75 and see what happens.

End of July / early August is a realistic date for the first batch of 25 to ship.


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## andrewwynn (May 25, 2006)

i would be very interested in one of those 25.. do you have an official sign up list yet? 

-awr


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## HarryN (May 25, 2006)

Hi Andrew- I have you on my "interested" list. There is no formal sign up - so far, just capturing names of people who have PMd or posted general interest. Basically, if you have posted in this thread, I have put you on my list of "maybe's".

Thanks

Harry


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## Radio (May 25, 2006)

Interested as well, great job!!!


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## SteveStephens (May 26, 2006)

HarryN, please add me to your list for one light. Thank you.

Steve


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## W4DIZ (May 27, 2006)

I am Interested as well for one with a WWOS.


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## patrick6 (May 29, 2006)

Please add me to the interest list, thank you.


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## HarryN (May 30, 2006)

Thanks everyone for the interest. A bit more than I expected actually.

Finally, a beam shot. (Thanks to Gadget Lover for his assistance)

The image shows the BREEZE on the left vs. a SF L4 on the right. The lights are held approx. 1 meter from the inside of my garage door. (The funny patterns on the door are from my using the door to clean out paint rollers)

pic removed

For reference, the vertical distance of the door sections is very close to 0.5 meters.

The central hot spot of the L4 is definitely brighter (more throw - approx. 580 Lux at 1 meter ) vs the BREEZE has almost a constant brightness level across its central beam (approx 300 Lux ). Smoothing out the Luxeon V beam cost some throw but the beam is very smooth - also more squarish than the L4.

More pictures soon.


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## Sturluson (May 30, 2006)

Please add me to your interest list.

What a great concept, and thanks for the beamshot!


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## karlthev (Jun 13, 2006)

Any word?


karl


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## HarryN (Jun 14, 2006)

Hi Karlthev - I have been working on a detail related to the tail cap battery springs. I will post some pics - the experiment so far was not an improvement over what I had, but would have been nice from a builder perspective.

In light of Lunar Module's "event" I have also decided to conduct another "risk assessment" - but this time, instead of just doing it myself, I am going to show details of the light from a "risk / risk reduction" perspective and ask for comments back from the group. I am thinking of doing this in a separate thread to keep from clogging this one up.

I know that this potentially delays things, but I am doing this project entirely as a hobby - it will never make money of any kind, and I at least 1/2 of these are going to close friends and family. I would feel really bad if someone were to get hurt from something I built.

Thanks for your interest. HarryN


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## karlthev (Jun 14, 2006)

Hey, thanks for the update!

Karl


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## andrewwynn (Jun 14, 2006)

wasn't LM's using primary 123s? they are 1.3AH cells.. not made for high-drain but that's how they are too often used. The M6 pumps about 10-12W of heat into the batteries just as an example because of how hard they are pushed. IIRC your design is very kind to the batteries and emitter using very conservative drive levels. 

Take a CR123 and fully charge it.. put it behind some plexiglass and short it dead-short.. i doubt it'll do anything but get hot and open-ckt when it gets too hot.. one of the nice things about small cells.. they tend not to get too ugly when things go south. 

-awr


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## karlthev (Jun 23, 2006)

How are you out there in Sunny Ca?

Karl


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## karlthev (Jun 23, 2006)

sorry, double post


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## XFlash (Jun 23, 2006)

Been watching your progress, put me on the interest list also.
Thanks


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## jeffb (Jun 23, 2006)

Interested, as well.

Thanks,

jeffb


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## HarryN (Jun 24, 2006)

Thanks guys. I took a few days for a much needed vacation (2 actually). One was a 1 night camp with the flash light group in San Jose, then took the family this week to Big Basin RedWoods State Park (near Santa Cruz, CA) Nice area, too many mosquitoes - as in swarming.

Hot - around 98 F by lunch, so we went to the beach a lot. Used my BREEZE a lot - until a small problem - loaned it to my wife. She stuck it in her pocket and I still don't have it back. Maybe that is a good sign.

Interestingly, after frequent use at the get together, and 5 days / nights of camping, it is still on the first set of cells. We ended up using on low most of the time, and high was more for fun than actual use.

I will get back to business on it this week.

Harry


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## andrewwynn (Jun 24, 2006)

I have had a very similar problem with loaning nanos.. with only 1/2 way through the production though fortunately.. very soon to be on a sprint to the finish as i shaved off about 90% of the difficulty of the hardest part.. hope you've optimized assembly, though it looks like you did with the clean ckt board solution. I have a bro who's nano broke and he's bummmin'.. so i can anticipate you'll be going through withdrawal pretty quick to get the breeze back.. just tell her you need a mint or something 

-awr


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## flashlight (Jun 24, 2006)

HarryN said:


> Thanks guys. I took a few days for a much needed vacation (2 actually). One was a 1 night camp with the flash light group in San Jose, then took the family this week to Big Basin RedWoods State Park (near Santa Cruz, CA) Nice area, too many mosquitoes - as in swarming.
> 
> Hot - around 98 F by lunch, so we went to the beach a lot. Used my BREEZE a lot - until a small problem - loaned it to my wife. She stuck it in her pocket and I still don't have it back. Maybe that is a good sign.
> 
> ...



Hey Harry, you weren't vacationing - you were doing 'field testing'.  Now get back to the workshop. :lolsign:


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## karlthev (Jun 28, 2006)

karl


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## Data (Jun 28, 2006)

HarryN said:


> Hi Andrew- I have you on my "interested" list. There is no formal sign up - so far, just capturing names of people who have PMd or posted general interest. Basically, if you have posted in this thread, I have put you on my list of "maybe's".
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Harry




Well good, that should put me near the top of the list. :thumbsup: Prepay is OK by me but I doubt you will need it to sell only 25.


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## Bogus1 (Jun 28, 2006)

Hi Harry,

If you are still adding interested parties I'd be interested in one or two. Thanks


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## HarryN (Jul 2, 2006)

Bogus - You are added to the list.

Data - I have about $ 8 K invested in optics / electronics development in this light. There are essentially no off the shelf components in the light. I am selling them for essentially parts cost, so I want to be sure that people really are committed to taking them. I am still thinking about the pre-payment thing.

I am very close to an arrangement with Photon Fanatic to help with the distribution / payments so I don't have to reinvent that wheel.

All
- I will be meeting this next week with the machine shop about doing an initial run of 3 protos. (the first ones were done on a model shop CNC.
- I am spending quite a bit of time on loose ends and a safety review analysis / document, which has become painfully long. I will post this for comments when it is finished or at least close to finished. So far I have only found 2 items which need additional consideration.


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## karlthev (Jul 2, 2006)

Well, be sure to keep us all posted!


Karl


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## SteveStephens (Jul 2, 2006)

Harry, I want to comfirm that I still want one of your Side by Sides. Any time, ready with Paypal.
Steve


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## Archangel (Aug 21, 2006)

So what's the latest, Henry?


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## Pumaman (Aug 21, 2006)

put me down as well!


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## HarryN (Aug 24, 2006)

Hi Guys

Hate to say this, but I have been pretty busy with work and family - the light is still going to happen (come heck or high water) but I think I will hold off on making any more date commits until I can get back to working on it.

Thanks everyone for your continued interest. Sorry for the delay.


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## europium (Oct 13, 2006)

Any possibility of using the New* Cree XR-E*?


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## HarryN (Oct 16, 2006)

Hi Eu

I did a bit of research on the new Cree part you noted. If I understand it correctly, Cree has put a large die in the package, a great way to gain some output and efficiency.

From an optics viewpoint, I don't think it is a problem, as I have a solution which can handle fairly large die (currently using Lux V, so large area is "normal".

From a thermal viewpoint, no problem.

From an electrical viewpoint, a challenge. The light is currently designed to handle 2 x primary CR2 or 2 x RCR2 with a WWOS Lux V emitter. The S bin Vf is a pretty fundamental part of the design to make this all work. Also, I am not that excited about going from a W bin brightness to something lower.

Of course, the door is never closed, but at least the first batch of lights needs to stay with a pretty fixed setup with the Lux V or I will never get these out the door. It is hard enough as it is.

I do appreciate your pointing this LED out though. I need to keep up on the technology and not ship anything which has slipped through the cracks.

For those asking the obvious question about delivery, I really don't know the answer. Sorry.

Take care 

HarryN


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## HarryN (Apr 30, 2007)

Hi, I guess I should update this thread, since so many of you have been patient.

Frankly, I am not sure what I am going to do with this project. I have a bit invested in this thing
- over $ 1 K in PCBs
- another $ 1 K in various related electronics
- About $ 1.5 K in optics / reflectors
- Lots in LEDs
- about $ 5 K in design / machining
- lots of personal time.

It has been a big learning experience, but after all of this, I only have one working unit. The machine shop in MI that I was working with ripped me off big time, and I have no real way to recover it. I am pretty unhappy about this right now. The shop is really first class technically, but their business approach has left me with a bad taste.

My wife is all over me to drop the project, and stop making flashlights. Occassionally, she is right, so I cannot entirely ignore her.

The good things about the project have been the great learning experiences, and the friends / interested CPFrs that are fun to work with.

I am fortunate in that at least all of the money has been mine, although I do still owe one more person some $s on this project, but that is my debt to him for work performed, and this will go out very soon.

If I do revive this project, it will be under one of three ways
- I find a local partner with a CNC machine
- I find a way to use a small CNC myself on a fee basis
- I buy a small CNC machine and do it myself

I guess in summary, if you are delaying a purchase waiting on this light, that might be a mistake. If I can make some real progress going forward, I will post it.

Take care and thanks for your interest.

HarryN


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## Greta (May 1, 2007)

Harry... Please remove or edit the link in your first post of this thread. It goes to a protected directory that requires a password and it locks up browsers.


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## carbine15 (May 1, 2007)

Sasha said:


> Harry... Please remove or edit the link in your first post of this thread. It goes to a protected directory that requires a password and it locks up browsers.



What she said!


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## milkyspit (May 1, 2007)

Harry, I'm sorry to hear about your project, though it sounds like you've got a good perspective on things. Wishing you better in the future!
:thumbsup:


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## modamag (May 1, 2007)

Harry, when ever we go thru a design project it's a great learning experience.
Either way you'll have to pay, either up front thru education, experimentation, or for someone else expertise. If we choose to pay later, it's basically alot of time loss and rework parts.

But, hopefully the $10K loss for you did not affect your "way of life".

If there is anything I can do to help, you know where I am and what my number is.

Best Wishes,
Jonathan


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## HarryN (May 14, 2007)

Hi - I removed the picture links for now. Hopefully, this will prevent the lock up problem.

HarryN


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## bombelman (May 15, 2007)

*Re: BREEZE TM - CR2 - Side by Side - Pics added*



HarryN said:


> Edit - 13 May 2007
> I am having some problems with links with my server, so I have removed the pic links for now.


Let me know if I can help.


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## 270winchester (May 15, 2007)

darn, sorry to hear that Harry, I saw the portotype and it worked great as far as I'm concerned.

so that will give you more time to run for the county sheriff no?


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## precisionworks (Sep 9, 2008)

What an interesting thread ... I saw the link in the Machining Forum.

Any plans for the future at this point?


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## karlthev (Sep 9, 2008)

I received a PM from Harry some time ago and he indicated that he wasn't going forward with this project. I haven't heard from him in quite a long time though.


Karl


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## HarryN (Sep 10, 2008)

Hi, thanks for finding and warming up this thread a bit. I do really appreciate the support, fun, and interest from others. I still EDC this light and like it, but of course I am biased.

I really would like to move this light along again, but a few things need to be dealt with first:

- I need to bring some basic machining capability in-house, at least for proto work. It is just too slow, expensive, and painful to make changes without at least some capability in house. This is in progress and might be in place by the end of the year (2008 for those who like to poke me about this project  )

- My business development consulting work is finally profitable, so I am finally cash flow positive, and can start to think about hobbies and toys that are not profitable, like this light project. This project will never break even, even on parts cost, but perhaps if I ignore what I have spent on it so far, and just focus on "new spending", then it might make sense.

- My wife has me working on some projects around the house in preparation for our oldest daughter getting married this spring. This has some small effects on my time and money as well. 

- The quality of workmanship and finish that is coming from both commercially made and especially from the small run suppliers is just amazing. I am reasonably sure that I cannot consistently achieve this result doing the machining myself - even in Al. In Ti - forget it.

- It would be nice to have an active joint partner in this project to help with some of the capabilities I lack. This is not a must, but it would be handy. There are not all that many hobby people with serious cnc machining capability and lots of spare time.

I will start going again to some local CPF meets and looking at lights again. Maybe I will have some lights ready for Christmas - 2009. 

Yes, I am serious.


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## karlthev (Sep 10, 2008)

Well Harry, some of us still around and waiting!! I suspect we will continue to do so into the foreseeable future.



Karl


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## GVS_Lakers (Sep 10, 2008)

I went to check this light out, but none of the pics show up in the thread...


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## karlthev (Sep 10, 2008)

No, I don't believe that I have ever seen it either. As a matter of fact, I wouldn't be surprised if Harry owns and carries the sole example of this light! With a bit of good luck though, maybe many of us will have the same opportunity with clones of it!



Karl


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## Frenchyled (Sep 10, 2008)

Since 2005...I am still waiting   

Take your time man, my collection could wait :thumbsup:


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## GVS_Lakers (Sep 10, 2008)

Can we see the prototype.....PLEEEEEASE:kiss:


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## Rudi (Sep 12, 2008)

+1


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## Christoph (Sep 12, 2008)




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## HarryN (Sep 13, 2008)

I had pictures of it up at one time, but it was messing up cpf somehow, and I was getting a lot of wierd hits on my server from "various counties" where there was not a reason for hits.

Yes, I do have the only living proto of it.

While I appreciate the interest, it is not practical or useful for me to post more info on it at this point - it would just spawn copies from you know where.

I will give you a visual description though - go look at a CR223 battery - imagine that made from Al, including the entire optical system, etc.. That is REALLY close. 

Down the road, I will post some pics on my web site, and pm those interested with a link. Don't hold your breath - go buy something that exists from one of the great modders on the forum. There is really nice stuff out there.


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## karlthev (Sep 14, 2008)

Thanks Harry for keeping us all in mind. I will, and I certainly hope all others will also respect your decision to go forward (or not!) with this at your own pace and ability. Thanks for keeping us all in mind!:twothumbs


Karl


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## HarryN (Dec 5, 2008)

This project has been on my mind again lately. I really like the light it gives, size, etc - That is the "pro" side.

On the "con" side - batteries / cells for it.

One of the fundamental design goals was to have a light that could be used either with protected R cells or primary cells as the power source. Primary CR2s are pretty common, but kind of expensive if you use the light much. If the cells lasted hours it would not be bad, but I found myself wanting to always be sure that I had fresh cells in the light.

For quite a while, AW offered a protected R CR2 Li Ion cell which worked not only for this light, but also for the Orb Raw and probably some other lights. The good side of this, is that having multiple users of a cell will tend to keep it in production. The down side, is that the Orb Raw pulls very hard on the cells, often resulting in only a small number of safe charge cycles. These cells are pretty cheap, so it did not bother me that the RAW is a 'race car" type setup and its consumables cost, but it did bother others. In any event, AW has not been able to get another run of protected RCR2s made in quite a while.

I looked around for a second source and have not been able to find a well protected R CR2. I am also quite concerned about offering a light that will entice customers to use an unprotected Li Ion cell. Certainly there are those who can make this work, but it defeats the purpose of making a light that my kids and wife can use safely.

I find myself with a couple of options
- Change the cell size to 123, which would increase the size of the light (but not horrible)
- Drop the project
- Other ideas - still open to suggestions if anyone has some.

Changing to a 123 size light might allow me to use all of the circuit boards and optics I have. Since the light is a multi level resistored design (due to space and some other limitations) the primary and R cell need very similar voltage ranges, so changing to an AA size for example doesn't really work AFAIK.

Sorry for the people that have not seen the pics - I am not set up to post pics for this light right now.

Take care

Harry


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## griff (Dec 5, 2008)

Harry,
This is hard to follow without photos!!
I would be glad to host your photos !!
PM me and I'll give you my email addy or you can snail mail them to me.
Let's get some pictures up so everybody can see them.


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## karlthev (Dec 5, 2008)

Griff, I believe Harry may feel that posting is premature at this point...


I'm all go for a 123 design!!!


Karl


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## griff (Dec 5, 2008)

9-2-2005 is when this thread was started. I didn't think posting pictures 3 years after the the project was announced would still be a problem?
I just want to see what the thing looks like. At one point there were pictures,


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## karlthev (Dec 5, 2008)

I guess I forget...I don't remember any but...:thinking:



Karl


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## HarryN (Dec 5, 2008)

Hi - ok, here is something of similar size. It is an energizer photo battery 223 size. Think of taking 2 x 123 cells side x side and taping them together with Al tape - that is close to the size and shape of the existing light. It was also the inspiration.

http://www.energizer.com/products/s...mera-button/Pages/lithium-digital-camera.aspx

Using 2 x 123 cells will make it just that much bigger than the current 2 x 123 size..

Thanks

Harry


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## HarryN (Dec 7, 2008)

*Re: CR123 - Side by Side*

Karl - I think you are right. I am going to convert this light design to a 2 x 123 side x side. This provides a lot more options for users, and of course, longer run time on primary or R. cells.

Now for the complex part - changing the title of the thread.


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## karlthev (Dec 7, 2008)

Call me, we'll work on it together!



Karl


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## dudemar (Jan 2, 2009)

After reading this thread I am now excited about this light! I would definitely buy one when it comes out, would be exciting to see it come to fruition!:twothumbs


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