# Confusion of each Eneloop generation.



## MarioJP (May 26, 2013)

Hey guys Its been awhile since I've been around here. Anyways. I am looking to buy a new set of cells, and have noticed that Amazon has 3 versions of Eneloops cells. How would I know which version of the cell i am going to get once i place my order?. The images does not really say much, other than what it claims to say on the description. There is even a 3rd generation that claims to have 1800 cycles. Is that even possible??


Thanks.


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## N8N (May 26, 2013)

yes, there is definitely a 3rd generation out there, the Wikipedia entry has part numbers. In fact I believe that there are now Panasonic branded Eneloops out in Japan but they don't seem to have hit Amazon yet.


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## MarioJP (May 26, 2013)

Panasonic?? what happen to Sanyo?


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## N8N (May 26, 2013)

Sanyo was bought by Matsushita/Panasonic in 2009/2010.


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## MarioJP (May 26, 2013)

Oh dam, does this means no more eneloops??


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## Knight_Light (May 26, 2013)

MarioJP said:


> Hey guys Its been awhile since I've been around here. Anyways. I am looking to buy a new set of cells, and have noticed that Amazon has 3 versions of Eneloops cells. How would I know which version of the cell i am going to get once i place my order?. The images does not really say much, other than what it claims to say on the description. There is even a 3rd generation that claims to have 1800 cycles. Is that even possible??
> 
> 
> Thanks.


Amazon is a great place to buy. Without getting overly complicated here is what I would look for.

This is the heading of the ones you should buy. “eneloop NEW 2000mAh Typical, 1900mAh Minimum, 1500 cycle, 4 Pack AA, Ni-MH Pre-Charged Rechargeable Batteries”. They are in a green and blue package. 4 pack is $10.35.

I would stay away from the ones in the blue and orange packaging. These are the older models.


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## MarioJP (May 26, 2013)

I was going to get it locally, but retail is expensive. $15 for a pack of 4 rechargeable Duracell. Noticed on the packaging now says "Duralock" white top cells. Thing is i can't tell which cells Duracell is using. Confusing.


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## N8N (May 26, 2013)

Supposedly the white top Duracells that are made in Japan are either comparable to or rebranded Eneloops depending on who you ask. But I was trying to buy local as well and just gave up and got the real Eneloops from Amazon; I know what I'm getting and they're cheaper as well so long as my order is big enough to qualify for free shipping. Amazon also has the Imedion AAs for less than I can get the Duracells for locally. So I've got 8 of those on order as well to give them a try.


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## SaraAB87 (May 26, 2013)

Do you guys think the rayovac platinum is at least passable, I have a $3 coupon so I can get a pack for like $7. I don't use my cells that heavily so I am not worried about getting 1500 recharges out of a cell. I do monitor my batteries closely with a BC 700. As long as they hold a passable charge after a year in storage I am good. Eneloops and Duraloops have not disappointed me on that front. A properly charged eneloop lasts a loooooonnnnnggggg time in my camera which is supposed to be a horrid battery hog. I have heard people getting only 50 shots out of my camera even while using eneloops, but I seem to get much more. I take pictures for eBay and I sometimes take more than 50 pictures at a time, multiple times before the batteries even start showing the low battery warning, that's at least a couple hundred shots before they even start slowing down. I use the flash too.


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## MarioJP (May 26, 2013)

I want all my flashlights AA and less proprietary so called lithium ion batteries and power packs that can run off Standard AA as well. I am quite surprised how the AA format is able to thrive, despite of every electronic devices is all proprietary lithium-ion based. I mean, don't mind certain devices to run off lithium ion like smartphones. Just as long as they're not picky of how they are being charged up.


Imedions looks like a good buy. Though i never really heard of them. Same quality as the Eneloop?


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## N8N (May 26, 2013)

MarioJP said:


> Imedions looks like a good buy. Though i never really heard of them. Same quality as the Eneloop?



I dunno. They do look like a good buy; but I haven't even received the first of the ones that I bought yet.

nate


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## spyderjohn (May 26, 2013)

3rd generation Eneloops... http://www.amazon.com/dp/B009RQJM3Y/?tag=cpf0b6-20 , just bought an 8-pack. They're doing very well so far.


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## MarioJP (May 26, 2013)

spyderjohn said:


> 3rd generation Eneloops... http://www.amazon.com/dp/B009RQJM3Y/?tag=cpf0b6-20 , just bought an 8-pack. They're doing very well so far.



Wow. That's a lot of cycles. With proper care these cells will probably outlive the owner (depending on age) lol.


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## stevieo (May 26, 2013)

link added

http://panasonic.net/sanyo/news/2011/10/06-1.pdf

eneloop version 3 was recently introduced to the USA, still marked Eneloop & distributed by Sanyo USA for now at least.

gen 2 are advertised 1500 times on packaging & the product number marking on battery is 3UTGA.

gen 3 are advertised 1800 times on packaging & the product number marking on battery is 3UTGB.

The product marking is the only way I can tell a gen 2 battery from a gen 3.

new gen 3 advertised fully charged batteries 90% charge after 1 yr, 80% after three, 70% after five.

the gen two is compared at 85% after 1 yr, 75% after three & no spec for after five.


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## Rosoku Chikara (May 26, 2013)

stevieo said:


> eneloop version 3 was recently introduced to the USA, still marked Eneloop & distributed by Sanyo USA for now at least.



Here in Japan, they have definitely switched over to the "new" Panasonic brand. And, this change is resulting in some "serious" complaints!





This photo is taken from a Japanese "Girls Blog" where there is intense complaining over the design change. They say that the "eneloop" logo was far softer and more feminine than the new "Panasonic" logo. They appear to be extremely upset over this, and suggest that Panasonic sales will plummet due to the "blowback."





As you can see, the left 3 cells are Panasonic "evolta" and the right 3 cells are Panasonic "eneloop." The "black" evolta on the far left seems taller than the rest, perhaps due to a photographic artifact (I didn't take this photo), but it also appears to be something new and completely different from the other evoltas.

I own a bunch of the "green" evoltas (purchased about 3-4 years ago), and they are regular NiMH. Mine are rated at 2000 mAh for an AA cell, and are good for 1,800 cycles. The "orange" evoltas are rated at only about 1000 mAh for an AA cell, but are good for 2,100 cycles.

This new "black" evolta, however, appears to be a new Low Self Discharge (LSD) cell from Panasonic. (To my knowledge, none of the other evolta batteries are LSD -- Mine certainly aren't. But, perhaps Panasonic plans to switch them all over to LSD?)

Based on its 2450 mAh rating for an AA, and 900 mAh for an AAA, it would appear to be based on the "black" Eneloop "Pro" or "XX" technology. (This is also supported by their claim of 80% capacity after 1 year.)


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## MarioJP (May 26, 2013)

Wow this is crazy. So these cells are still usable after 5 years. Now i see no reason why people still buy alkalines even if they come in bulk dirt cheap. But makes you wonder though. Will these cells perform the same after 5 years. Do they lose charge cycles just by sitting?


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## SaraAB87 (May 27, 2013)

Only in Japan would girls complain about the color and logo of their batteries in an intense way! I wonder if all girls care about batteries like this in Japan!

Personally I don't really care as long as the performance is the same or better as the original eneloop.

It does help to have different colors to make it easier to organize the batteries especially when you have lots of batteries. It is easier than numbering them. But I don't really care what the colors are or what the logos look like though I would spend an extra dollar or so to get ones of a color that I don't already have since it really does make it easier to organize them.


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## N8N (May 27, 2013)

Every time I think I understand Japan and the Japanese... well... problem is I was engaged to a half Japanese type and to this day that half is a mystery.


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## MarioJP (May 28, 2013)

So between the 1500 and 1800 Eneloop. In the real world. Would one really noticed the difference?


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## SaraAB87 (May 28, 2013)

Has anyone tried to charge eneloops 1500 times say within a year or 2 I don't know about anyone else but my eneloops last so long I find I have to rarely charge mine. Even if you had kids that use the most battery draining toys I imagine it would be hard to charge eneloops 2-3 times a day with how long they last.

I doubt I would notice the difference between 1800 and 1500....


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## Mr Floppy (May 28, 2013)

SaraAB87 said:


> Has anyone tried to charge eneloops 1500 times say within a year or 2



If you charged at 2A and discharged at 1A constantly, that's around 3 hours for a cycle. Multiply that by 1500 and that's 4500 hours so half a year of constant cycling at sort of real world charge/discharge rates.


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## MarioJP (May 28, 2013)

Ok has been settled. I am going to place an order for the Eneloops 1800 the link i was provided. Hopefully these cells are the real ones as there seem to be a lot of counterfeit when buying batteries.

Would like to thank you guys for providing such information


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## ChibiM (Jun 15, 2013)

For AA eneloops here the following info to see what generation batteries they are:

HR-3UTG = 1st gen =1000cycles

HR-3UTGA = 2nd gen =1500cycles

HR-3UTGB = 3rd gen = 1800cycles

BK-3MCC = 4th gen= 2100cycles


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## MarioJP (Jun 15, 2013)

ChibiM said:


> For AA eneloops here the following info to see what generation batteries they are:
> 
> *BK-3MCC = 4th gen= 2100cycles*



Whoa..what??


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## Power Me Up (Jun 15, 2013)

MarioJP said:


> Whoa..what??



Doing a Google search reveals that the 4th generation were released in April 2013 and are indeed rated for 2,100 cycles.

There's also a 3rd generation XX but it's still rated for only 500 cycles and with the same capacity as before, so I'm not sure what has changed. In addition, there is now a 2nd generation Eneloop Lite that is rated for 5,000 cycles!


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## N8N (Jun 15, 2013)

4th generation probably not released in US yet, they seem to release the new stuff for the Japanese market first, then the rest of the world a couple months later. Not like you can get Eneloops anywhere but online


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## MarioJP (Jun 15, 2013)

N8N said:


> 4th generation probably not released in US yet, they seem to release the new stuff for the Japanese market first, then the rest of the world a couple months later. Not like you can get Eneloops anywhere but online



Costco that i know of carry Eneloops, but only if you have their "elite membership club card" or you won't be able to buy anything.


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## ChibiM (Jun 21, 2013)

If you want to know more about the different Eneloop editions , please search Google for "all eneloop batteries", and it`s about the 3rd hit, 
there you can find my very informative thread about all existing eneloop batteries. 
I gathered all the info in the last few years.


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## __philippe (Jun 21, 2013)

Eneloop Reference Table removed per ChibiM's request.

Instead, check Eneloop's releases story straight from the horse's mouth here: 

http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?364607-Overview-All-eneloop-batteries-2005-2013

Cheers,

__philippe


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## Russel (Jun 21, 2013)

I'm wondering if there is a mistake on the table. The LITE 2nd gen AAA are rated at 950 mAh and the AA cells are rated at 550 mAh?


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## __philippe (Jun 21, 2013)

Russel said:


> I'm wondering if there is a mistake on the table. The LITE 2nd gen AAA are rated at 950 mAh and the AA cells are rated at 550 mAh?



Eneloop Reference Table removed per ChibiM's request. 

See post #29 for further reference. 

__philippe


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## InHisName (Jun 21, 2013)

Russel said:


> I'm wondering if there is a mistake on the table. The LITE 2nd gen AAA are rated at 950 mAh and the AA cells are rated at 550 mAh?


Looks like both the AA & AAA data are switched wrong.
Should be the other way. 
AA 950
AAA 550
See 1st gen and numbers match up with Min. values.


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## ALW248 (Jun 23, 2013)

Rosoku Chikara said:


> I own a bunch of the "green" evoltas (purchased about 3-4 years ago), and they are regular NiMH. Mine are rated at 2000 mAh for an AA cell, and are good for 1,800 cycles. The "orange" evoltas are rated at only about 1000 mAh for an AA cell, but are good for 2,100 cycles.
> 
> This new "black" evolta, however, appears to be a new Low Self Discharge (LSD) cell from Panasonic. (To my knowledge, none of the other evolta batteries are LSD -- Mine certainly aren't. But, perhaps Panasonic plans to switch them all over to LSD?)



It seems that all NiMH EVOLTA are Low Self Discharge.

I am actually looking for non-LSD NiMH. I wish to find something of high life span like the new 5000x Eneloop. The low capacity of 1000mAh is OK.

I feel that in my audio amps, my Eneloop AA and AAA do not sound energetic as non-LSD NiMH. My theory is that the LSD also makes them slow in normal discharge, that when the device needs a pulse increase in current supply, there is a slight delay.

I know that in constant current discharge, Eneloop is capable of high current. Maybe someone can do a test on pulse discharge to look at the pulse shapes at different frequencies.


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## ALW248 (Jun 23, 2013)

dup delete


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## Rosoku Chikara (Jun 24, 2013)

ALW248 said:


> ...It seems that all NiMH EVOLTA are Low Self Discharge...[excerpted]



That's interesting. Mine certainly aren't. But, if you have found that to be true, then Panasonic must have switched them all over to LSD (fairly recently?). I do most of my shopping on the internet, but the next time I am in Tokyo, I will try to remember to check out the "battery store" and ask someone what is going on.

By the way, and I kind of hate to even mention this, because I seem to spend so much time posting about the "black" Eneloop Pro batteries, that some people probably think I must own stock in them. 

But... You might want to "look into them." They are the "*Least* LSD" of all Eneloops, and I believe I read someone saying that they might be capable of greater current output. I don't know whether or not that is true, and how they would perform in a "pulse" situation. But, it may be worth looking into them.


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## Wiggle (Jun 24, 2013)

ALW248 said:


> I feel that in my audio amps, my Eneloop AA and AAA do not sound energetic as non-LSD NiMH. My theory is that the LSD also makes them slow in normal discharge, that when the device needs a pulse increase in current supply, there is a slight delay.



Another audio enthusiast here.

I would disagree, I suspect in double-blind testing (yes a bad word for audiophiles) you would find no difference. The Eneloops are known for low output resistance, as evidenced by high performance with larger current draws. Eneloops are not "slow". If they were, on flashlight reviews with higher frequency PWM you would see significant rounding of the pulsing pattern.

Not to mention, in most power supplies for an audio amp there is a capacitor section which is much more responsible for the quick transients required by dynamic music.

The only advantage I would see to non-LSD is potentially higher capacity.


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## ALW248 (Jun 26, 2013)

Rosoku Chikara said:


> That's interesting. Mine certainly aren't. But, if you have found that to be true, then Panasonic must have switched them all over to LSD (fairly recently?).


 
If your 1800x Evolta is not LSD, then that is most interesting. That means regular NiMH can be as robust as Eneloop.



Rosoku Chikara said:


> By the way, and I kind of hate to even mention this, because I seem to spend so much time posting about the "black" Eneloop Pro batteries, that some people probably think I must own stock in them.
> 
> But... You might want to "look into them." They are the "*Least* LSD" of all Eneloops, and I believe I read someone saying that they might be capable of greater current output. I don't know whether or not that is true, and how they would perform in a "pulse" situation. But, it may be worth looking into them.



I don't need the extra capacity. Actually I prefer the more robust 5000x new Eneloop Lite, if I want LSD. I don't want to worry about one cell going bad after half a year or so. The 500x life span makes that much more likely to happen than the 5000x of Eneloop Lite.

But if all consumer NiMH switch to LSD, then I do want the least LSD of Eneloop Pro.

There are industrial non-LSD NiMH AA that are of much lower capacity, e.g, 1500mAh. Those are hopefully more robust than consumer ones around 2500mAh. But I don't know where I can buy some 1500mAh at retail quantity.


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## mdixon (Nov 21, 2013)

should I be concerned with getting 1500x batteries in an 1800x package? I bought two 4-packs of eneloop AA and AAA from amazon: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B004UG41W8/?tag=cpf0b6-20

the packaging in that picture says "1500x/3years" (which was fine with me, I didn't know there was an 1800x). what I received though was the exact same blue/green packaging as that but with "1800x/5 years" on the front. however using this link all the batteries inside are 1500x: http://www.eneloop.info/eneloop-products/faqs/faqs-eneloop.html

all my batteries have HR-3/4UTGA and no line under the crown (the eneloop faq and this forum say 1800x have HR-3/4UTGB and a line).

the date markings of my batteries are "13 05" and "13 03" so they would seem to be new enough physically to be 1800x but aren't.

I'm not concerned with the extra 300 cycles so much but rather if mine might be counterfeits? iow having the wrong battery in the most attractive packaging? or just a factory screwup where they put new/fresh 1500x batteries into 1800x packaging? that didn't seem too likely to me since it would had to have happened with both AA and AAA products plus over a few months' time (given my batteries date markings).


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## ChibiM (Nov 22, 2013)

Hi Mdixon, please post some pics.. 
so we can see if there are some possible fakes...(which I don`t think they are)

But HR 3UTGA are 2nd generation eneloops, with 1500 rated cycles. 
and HR 3UTGB are 3rd generation eneloops, with 1800 rated cycles. 

Why the codes on your HR 3UTGA with 1500 cycles is still a question.. Have heard that more before, but have no answer to it. 
If you want to know more about the different eneloops available, please take a look at THIS eneloop overview thread.


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## mdixon (Nov 22, 2013)

mostly it's a question if the wrong batteries in the wrong package means anything. the same thing occurred with the AAA package I have but I only included scans of the AA stuff.

so it's for two different product lines, over at least a 2-month period (based on the date stamps of the AA and AAA batteries in them) - wouldn't a factory mistake be more confined, caught and corrected quickly? since it wasn't it makes me wonder. using the pictures on this board and elsewhere from everything I can determine the batteries are genuine but since this is the first time I've bought eneloop I wouldn't bet on it.

notice the package is the same as the 1500x/3 yrs package but on the left says 1800/5 yrs. I also included a scan of two of the 1500x batteries from it:


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## ChrisGarrett (Nov 23, 2013)

You seem to have been taken.

Who are you buying your batteries from? Amazon is dealing with FAKE Eneloop sales among its vendors.

Your package states 1800x, which is Gen 3 and you got Gen 2 1500x. 

If you paid more than $10/4 pack, delivered, you got ripped off IMO.

Look for the micro-embossed date codes on your batteries.

It's right need the wrapper seam.

Chris


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## ChibiM (Nov 23, 2013)

So you paid for 3rd gen, and got 2nd gen... could you see any damage to the package? Like they were opened up to change the batts inside?


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## TinderBox (UK) (Nov 23, 2013)

*All Eneloop batteries 2005-2013*

John.


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## Replicant (Nov 23, 2013)

Recently I bought 2nd generation cells from Costco that were in packaging that rated them at 1800 charges. I assume it's an error in the packaging.

If Amazon was the actual seller (sold by and shipped from), I wouldn't be concerned.


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## mdixon (Nov 23, 2013)

Replicant said:


> Recently I bought 2nd generation cells from Costco that were in packaging that rated them at 1800 charges. I assume it's an error in the packaging. If Amazon was the actual seller (sold by and shipped from), I wouldn't be concerned.


ok thanks. it was amazon sold by/shipped and if you got the same mismarked package from somewhere else then mine must be fine.

amazon was advertising gen2, that's what I intended to buy and what I received. it's just that they all came in gen3 packaging which made me wonder if they might not have come from sanyo/panasonic. because I could see if one or the other was the only one mismarked but both the AA and AAA packages/contents didn't match, plus the dates of the batteries (march - may 2013) seemed like an awful long time for a factory packaging issue to continue.


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## mojo-chan (Nov 25, 2013)

Sometimes people buy up bankrupt or old stock and simply repackage them, hoping no-one will notice. The cells might be real but the packaging fake. Unfortunately there is no way to tell, so I'd just return them and demand certifiable ones.


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## Rosoku Chikara (Nov 28, 2013)

ALW248 said:


> I am actually looking for non-LSD NiMH. I wish to find something of high life span like the new 5000x Eneloop. The low capacity of 1000mAh is OK...[excerpted]



Well, *ALW248,* it seems to me that these may be what you are looking for:





They are Panasonic Ni-MH batteries designed for use in audio equipment. Haven't found any mention of the number of recharge cycles so far, but capacities are 700 mAh for the AAA, and 2000 mAh for the AA.


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## Rosoku Chikara (Nov 28, 2013)

I must confess to remaining more than a bit confused as to what exactly is going on with the Eneloop Panasonic situation, but here is some new information I found on the Japanese Panasonic website:





(I have translated most of the writing into English, while attempting to leave their original graphic design intact.)

As you can see, Panasonic offers three models (Standard, Economy, and High-End) for both their "Eneloop" product line and their "Rechargeable Evolta" product line. And, they offer them side-by-side. The minimum mAh ratings, and approximate number of recharge cycles are as stated in the above graphic.

So, what is the difference? Well, it is not so clearly stated on that page, but if you search further you can find the following information:

- The "Standard Model" Eneloop (part numbers BK-3MCC and BK-4MCC, for AA and AAA, respectively) are said to hold about 90% of their capacity after 1 year.

- The "Economy Model" Eneloop (part numbers BK-3LCC and BK-4LCC, for AA and AAA, respectively) are said to hold about 85% of their capacity after 1 year.

- The "High-End Model" Eneloop (part numbers BK-3HCC and BK-4HCC, for AA and AAA, respectively) are also said to hold about 85% of their capacity after 1 year.

- The "Standard Model" Rechargeable Evolta (part numbers BK-3MLE and BK-4MLE, for AA and AAA, respectively) are said to hold about 80% of their capacity after 1 year.

- The "Economy Model" Rechargeable Evolta (part numbers BK-3LLB and BK-4LLB, for AA and AAA, respectively) are said to hold about 85% of their capacity after 1 year.

- The "High-End Model" Rechargeable Evolta (part numbers BK-3HLC and BK-4HLC, for AA and AAA, respectively) are said to hold about 65% of their capacity after 1 year.

I cannot find much information about capacity ratings after more than 1 year. (The product detail page for Eneloop batteries says that they hold 90% of their charge after one year, and also adds something like "and these batteries are still *usable* even after five years," without making any specific claim as to percentage capacity after five years. The product detail page for Evolta rechargeables makes no mention at all of their ability to hold their capacity over time. I did find one "inner" page in the Eneloop section that reiterates Eneloop's famous claim of 90% capacity after 1 year, and 70% capacity after 5 years, but in my opinion, this fact is not being well publicized by Panasonic.) 

This may be because most Japanese are not very concerned about whether or not their batteries retain a charge that far into the future (they probably figure, and rightly so, that most likely they would have recharged them before that long), or it may be an intentional effort by Panasonic to "mask" the most significant difference between the Eneloop and the Evolta product lines. While I couldn't find any clear statement of this fact on these Japanese websites, I believe that at the end of the 2nd year, the capacities of all the above "Rechargeable Evolta" models would be at zero, or near zero, whereas the "Eneloops" would all still be going relatively strong...

(Therefore, it now appears that, despite my earlier post in this thread stating that I believed the new "black" Evolta to be a new LSD product, I think this line-up of three Evolta rechargeable models are all non-LSD, or perhaps, "semi-LSD" at most.)

This same webpage also provides the following update on Panasonic battery chargers and Panasonic battery compatibility:





It appears that all previous models of battery chargers, other than those listed as "new" at the bottom of the above chart (BQ-CC11, BQ-CC21, etc.), have been discontinued. Perhaps some of our battery charger experts can explain "why" (if indeed Panasonic's claim is true), but Panasonic is claiming that their "new" battery chargers are much better because you can now (for the first time) charge all your old and new, Eneloop and Evolta batteries with a single model charger. (Actually, I thought that that was never any problem to begin with.)


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## Rosoku Chikara (Nov 28, 2013)

In a previous post on this thread, I pointed out that Japanese girls were complaining about the renaming of Eneloop batteries to the Panasonic name. (They felt that the design and "look" of the word "Panasonic" on the battery, was far less feminine than the original word "eneloop" which was perceived as much softer looking...)

While they have not removed the "troublesome" Panasonic name, the following appears to be Panasonic's attempt to make the Japanese girls happy:


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## Rosoku Chikara (Nov 28, 2013)

Now, for the confusing part... or at least, the part that has got me "confused." All the info in my above recent posts came from Panasonic websites such as panasonic.com/jp and panasonic.jp that are written in Japanese. But, my information that I wrote in a previous post (which now appears to be "disinformation") about the "black" Rechargeable Evolta batteries being LSD, came from some English site. I cannot seem to find the same information again, but I have found where the English language site Panasonic.net makes the following statement about what appears to be "Standard Model" Rechargeable Evoltas:



> *Ready-to-use reliability - *The batteries are packaged with a full charge on board so you can start using them right after purchase. Our advanced self-discharge control system retains about 85% of its original capacity after a year in storage, so you can enjoy reliable EVOLTA performance when you need it most.



Furthermore, a battery review by a British website makes the following statements about what appears to be the very same "Standard Model" Rechargeable Evolta:



> For low-drain applications, the battery’s ability to hold its charge is more important than a high capacity. For this purpose, Panasonic has designed its Evolta cells, which use low self-discharge technology to hold their charge. When left unused, they should maintain their charge for a year or more.
> 
> This makes them ideally suited to being used in devices such as remote controls, clocks and wireless keyboards and mice. That's not to say that they can't be used elsewhere, though. Although they have a rated capacity of 2,050mAh, our rapid-drain test measured the batteries at 2,096mAh. This is around 102 per cent of capacity and shows that these batteries can cope with high-drain devices.
> 
> ...



Help! What the heck is going on here? Are these batteries LSD or not?

To make matters worse, Panasonic.net also shows an entirely "new" (old?) AA battery, that I had never seen before:





Here is what they have to say about it:



> *Elite performance for demanding situations - *Some specialist appliances may demand even more power, and for that, we offer a specialist solution. Our high-end Ni-MH2600 delivers very powerful current performance in a conveniently rechargeable format.



And, sure enough, when I looked around on the Japanese websites, I did manage to find the following Panasonic product line (listed under "other rechargeable batteries" but, I have no idea what they are good for, and what, if anything, is "special" about them:




(The D cell is rated at only 2800 mAh min., the C cell also 2800 mAh min., the AAs are 2400 mAh min, but 2600 mAh "typical," and the 8.4 v "9V" batteries gets only 170 mAh min.)


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## EneloopFan (Nov 29, 2013)

After reading all the above posts, it seems like Panasonic is going to abandon the "Eneloop" brand. I know that Panasonic bought out Sanyo and so calling the rechargeable NiMH batteries Sanyo Eneloop is not possible but Panasonic Eneloop was fine. Will Panasonic abandon the Eneloop brand now and rebrand the rechargeable NiMH batteries as "Evolta" or "Panasonic Evolta" instead of Panasonic Eneloop?


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## OpenGuy (Dec 14, 2013)

MarioJP said:


> Imedions looks like a good buy. Though i never really heard of them. Same quality as the Eneloop?



I purchased both Imedions and original Eneloops at around the same time. The Imedions were solid performers that reliably kept their charge, but they had higher internal resistance than the Eneloops. I used the Imedions every day in my bike lights (with a pack of Eneloops as backups) until they eventually wore out. I feel the Eneloops were better, but otherwise I would have been happy with the Imedions compared to the rapid discharge junk that I had used previously. I replaced the worn out Imedions with Eneloops.


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## ALW248 (Dec 25, 2013)

Rosoku Chikara said:


> Well, *ALW248,* it seems to me that these may be what you are looking for:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



So Panasonic knows that LSD does not sound good for audio applications?

Thanks a lot.


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## RetroTechie (Dec 25, 2013)

Rosoku Chikara said:


> That's interesting. Mine certainly aren't. But, if you have found that to be true, then Panasonic must have switched them all over to LSD (fairly recently?).


Recently bought some Panasonic Evolta's (HHR-3MVE) that came in packaging indicating they're low self discharge (otherwise I wouldn't have bought them  ). Capacity-wise they're good cells, and my voltmeter confirms they hold their charge just sitting on the shelf. But strangely enough there's nothing indicating the same on the batteries themselves. Me thinks Rosoku is right, probably they moved to lsd cells @ some point, updated packaging, but left cell wrapping / marking unchanged. Mine have a "1212" date code (dec. 2012?) embossed btw.



ALW248 said:


> I don't need the extra capacity. Actually I prefer the more robust 5000x new Eneloop Lite, if I want LSD. I don't want to worry about one cell going bad after half a year or so. The 500x life span makes that much more likely to happen than the 5000x of Eneloop Lite.
> 
> But if all consumer NiMH switch to LSD, then I do want the least LSD of Eneloop Pro.


The *only* thing you should care about, is which batteries will give _you_ the best performance over the course of the years you'll use them.

If you recharge NiMH almost daily, keep spare cells charged *religiously*, then 'classic' NiMH's _may_ work for you, and you could profit from a few extra mAh's. But say you go on 4 week holiday, forget about them, after ~2 weeks they run empty, the remainder of your holiday they sit empty and you may find they've lost significant capacity after that event. Which could give lsd NiMH's the edge after a single (or a few) of such incidents. You're sure you can avoid such mishaps over the course of years? Hmm.... :thinking:

For virtually all other use cases, low self discharge NiMH's (Eneloops in particular) are the go-to choice, and you're a thief of your own wallet if you choose otherwise. If you make heavy use of them, Eneloops Pro give you some extra mAh at the cost of cycle life. For very light use (wall clocks, remote controls, etc) Eneloop Lites offer faster recharging and perhaps a bit more robustness. Note that even for those uses, regular Eneloops will be fine.

Summarized: no reason to shy away from lsd NiMH's. Personally, I think non-lsd NiMH's have had their day - good riddance. :wave:


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## RetroTechie (Dec 25, 2013)

ALW248 said:


> I feel that in my audio amps, my Eneloop AA and AAA do not sound energetic as non-LSD NiMH. My theory is that the LSD also makes them slow in normal discharge, that when the device needs a pulse increase in current supply, there is a slight delay.
> 
> I know that in constant current discharge, Eneloop is capable of high current. Maybe someone can do a test on pulse discharge to look at the pulse shapes at different frequencies.


Oh man, you need to do a double-blind listening test. And _if_ that would actually show a difference: improve/repair your amplifier's power supply section. Maybe there's a dried up capacitor in there somewhere?


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## RetroTechie (Dec 25, 2013)

EneloopFan said:


> After reading all the above posts, it seems like Panasonic is going to abandon the "Eneloop" brand.


More like they'll replace "Panasonic Evolta" with "Panasonic Eneloop" for their NiMH's. With "Panasonic" being the most prominent on the package. "Eneloop" should have considerable marketing value @ this point, I doubt Panasonic would be stupid enough to flush that down the toilet.
:toilet:


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## N54 (Jan 4, 2014)

I recently bought eneloop packages from Costco that were labeled 1800X on the packaging....but the batteries had 2nd gen labels on them. I checked all of different packages and they were all the same. The batteries are dated 13/5


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## ALW248 (Feb 18, 2014)

ALW248 said:


> So Panasonic knows that LSD does not sound good for audio applications?



I have now tried other batteries. For audio enjoyment:
NiZn > NiCd > NiMH > Eneloop

I am very glad that NiZn is available. Now I can forget about Eneloop, NiMH, and NiCd.


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## Power Me Up (Feb 18, 2014)

ALW248 said:


> I have now tried other batteries. For audio enjoyment:
> NiZn > NiCd > NiMH > Eneloop
> 
> I am very glad that NiZn is available. Now I can forget about Eneloop, NiMH, and NiCd.



It's good to hear that you're happy with using NiZn cells. Since they do hold a significantly higher voltage than NiCd and NiMH cells, I don't doubt that they're working better for you. There are some serious caveats with NiZn cells, but as long as you're happy to live with them, then that's fine for you.

For the benefit of others reading this though, it should be noted that your conclusion of regular NiMH being better than Eneloops is only your opinion based on your non objective testing with just one audio device. 

Eneloops will generally perform better (or at least no worse) than regular NiMH cells in most applications - the main exception of course being that high capacity cells will usually last longer per cycle (until their capacity degrades below the capacity of Eneloops)


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## mojo-chan (Feb 19, 2014)

ALW248 said:


> I have now tried other batteries. For audio enjoyment:
> NiZn > NiCd > NiMH > Eneloop



Double blind tests say there is no noticeable difference in reasonable quality / well designed audio gear.


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## RetroTechie (Feb 19, 2014)

ALW248 said:


> I have now tried other batteries. For audio enjoyment:
> NiZn > NiCd > NiMH > Eneloop


"Double blind" is the keyword here. Not saying ALW248 is talking out of his neck, but I'd like to see some double blind listening tests, that -without a doubt- show one battery type's superiority over another. Preferably including schematics of the equipment used.

Lacking that, any of the above is just hearsay to me (which _I_ will ignore). 

If IIRC, NiZn are just superior in that they have a higher voltage when starting out fresh. As soon as they become depleted for a large part, the "A is better than B" picture gets blurred... Read: maybe operating voltage is the only relevant factor here. :thinking:


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## Power Me Up (Feb 20, 2014)

RetroTechie said:


> If IIRC, NiZn are just superior in that they have a higher voltage when starting out fresh. As soon as they become depleted for a large part, the "A is better than B" picture gets blurred... Read: maybe operating voltage is the only relevant factor here. :thinking:



NiZn cells hold a higher voltage throughout their discharge - when they hit 1.3V they're considered flat. Depending on the application, NiZn will generally give less run time on each charge since their capacity is lower than NiMH.


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## mojo-chan (Feb 21, 2014)

RetroTechie said:


> Lacking that, any of the above is just hearsay to me (which _I_ will ignore).



It's probably a misunderstanding that originated from the differences in voltage between cell types. I have built a few portable amps and it is certainly true that, for example, a simple unregulated one like a Cmoy sounds better with two cells in series to give a wider supply voltage for the op-amp. Any well designed amp that was built for use with, say, 3xAA cells should be designed to operate down to 3V without any noticeable loss though. Some bad designs may be affected by the choice of battery type and that then became "battery type A sounds better than B in all devices".


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## ALW248 (Mar 1, 2014)

ALW248 said:


> I have now tried other batteries. For audio enjoyment:
> NiZn > NiCd > NiMH > Eneloop



If you need transient power performance, e.g., for audio, it is in your own interest to try batteries other than Eneloop. It is not much trouble at all. Blindly believing those who have not tested it themselves would not do you any good.


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## Etsu (Mar 1, 2014)

ALW248 said:


> If you need transient power performance, e.g., for audio, it is in your own interest to try batteries other than Eneloop. It is not much trouble at all. Blindly believing those who have not tested it themselves would not do you any good.



As others have already pointed out, only a scientific double-blind study can back up what you claim. There's no reasonable explanation of why Eneloops would be worse than other NiMH cells, so your belief is just pseudo-science.


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## cpfdemigod (Mar 3, 2014)

Well, thought I had fake eneloops as well, as I had purchased 3 8-AA packs directly from amazon last week, and the packaging surely said 1800x recharge and 70% after 5 years, but all had serial HR-3UTGA which is 2nd generation model number. So I called Panasonic, eneloop division, and the rep told me that the 3rd generation eneloops have 2nd generation model numbers on them and to not be worried. 

I am thinking of returning them to amazon, as I could easily confuse them with my 2nd gen eneloops from years ago, and don't like mixing new with old!


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## mojo-chan (Mar 4, 2014)

ALW248 said:


> If you need transient power performance, e.g., for audio, it is in your own interest to try batteries other than Eneloop. It is not much trouble at all. Blindly believing those who have not tested it themselves would not do you any good.



For headphones the amount of energy you are talking about is easy for Eneloops to provide, and besides which any half way competent design will be providing that energy from capacitors and inductors rather than the cells directly.

The onus is on you to prove your theory with double blind tests. Where is your evidence?


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## ALW248 (Mar 5, 2014)

If you care about scientific truth, you should test it yourself, especially when it is not difficult to do. You should not believe anyone else, but your own experiments.


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## mojo-chan (Mar 6, 2014)

ALW248 said:


> If you care about scientific truth, you should test it yourself, especially when it is not difficult to do. You should not believe anyone else, but your own experiments.



If I tested every crackpot theory I heard myself I'd never do anything else. This isn't Mythbusters, if you make extraordinary claims that go against established and accepted notions you need to provide extraordinary proof. Otherwise it's just more audiophoolery.


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## markr6 (Mar 6, 2014)

I agree to some extent. There's a lot of info here I believe without trying myself. BTW, if HKJ told me you could improve battery efficiency by rolling it in dog poo, I'd probably do it :laughing:


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## HKJ (Mar 6, 2014)

markr6 said:


> There's a lot of info here I believe without trying myself. BTW, if HKJ told me you could improve battery efficiency by rolling it in dog poo, I'd probably do it :laughing:



I believe it is word a try, get someone to take photos while you do it and post them here


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## ALW248 (Mar 12, 2014)

mojo-chan said:


> If I tested every crackpot theory I heard myself I'd never do anything else. This isn't Mythbusters, if you make extraordinary claims that go against established and accepted notions you need to provide extraordinary proof. Otherwise it's just more audiophoolery.



If I tell you that I can tell the difference in blind tests, would you believe me? If not, is it better for you to try it yourself, when the trouble is minimal?

It is well established that NiZn has better power performance than Eneloop.

I am saying that for anyone who care about power performance, especially transient performance, it is worthwhile to give NiZn a try.


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## Etsu (Mar 12, 2014)

ALW248 said:


> If I tell you that I can tell the difference in blind tests, would you believe me? If not, is it better for you to try it yourself, when the trouble is minimal?
> 
> It is well established that NiZn has better power performance than Eneloop.
> 
> I am saying that for anyone who care about power performance, especially transient performance, it is worthwhile to give NiZn a try.



You specifically said that Eneloops were worse than regular NiMH batteries in the following quote:



ALW248 said:


> I have now tried other batteries. For audio enjoyment:
> NiZn > NiCd > NiMH > Eneloop




That is garbage. There is no plausible explanation why that would be the case, nor is there a shred of evidence. You're simply spouting myths you made up yourself.


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## ALW248 (Mar 16, 2014)

I am willing to wage any bet that I can tell the difference between Eneloop and non-LSD NiMH in blind tests.

But now this only has theoretical importance.

Practically, NiZn sounds even better than NiMH. And it is becoming harder to make sure that NiMH is non-LSD.


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## Power Me Up (Mar 17, 2014)

ALW248 said:


> I am willing to wage any bet that I can tell the difference between Eneloop and non-LSD NiMH in blind tests.



So you're saying that you're certain that you could tell in a blind test - even though you haven't done one yet?


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## Etsu (Mar 17, 2014)

Power Me Up said:


> So you're saying that you're certain that you could tell in a blind test - even though you haven't done one yet?



He's making a useless assertion. He knows nobody can test him on it, nor would anyone be bothered testing him on his nutty claims.


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## uk_caver (Mar 17, 2014)

Well, it is possible that even ignoring supposed transient response, a particular piece of audio equipment intended to run from AAs is so badly designed that it requires the high voltage of niche and otherwise dubious-usefulness NiZn cells to operate properly, but that seems like a topic for a separate thread.


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## Power Me Up (Mar 17, 2014)

Etsu said:


> He's making a useless assertion.



Agreed.



> He knows nobody can test him on it, nor would anyone be bothered testing him on his nutty claims.



I don't think that he believes that his claims are nutty though. I'm curious to delve a little into his thinking on this...


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## Etsu (Mar 17, 2014)

Power Me Up said:


> I don't think that he believes that his claims are nutty though. I'm curious to delve a little into his thinking on this...



People who spout nutty theories seldom believe they are nutty. I'm not sure what benefit looking inside the mind of a nut has, other than psychological interest.

Even if you could prove to him that his crackpot theory is wrong, he'd never believe it. His conspiracy theory would just expand to accuse you of running a flawed test. You'll never win. It's like trying to convince someone that believes the moon landing was faked he's wrong. Every bit of evidence you provide to show we really did land people on the moon, would be used against you as an ever-expanding conspiracy.


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## Power Me Up (Mar 17, 2014)

Etsu said:


> People who spout nutty theories seldom believe they are nutty. I'm not sure what benefit looking inside the mind of a nut has, other than psychological interest.
> 
> Even if you could prove to him that his crackpot theory is wrong, he'd never believe it. His conspiracy theory would just expand to accuse you of running a flawed test. You'll never win. It's like trying to convince someone that believes the moon landing was faked he's wrong. Every bit of evidence you provide to show we really did land people on the moon, would be used against you as an ever-expanding conspiracy.



You could well be right, but I want to try giving him the benefit of the doubt and see where that goes.


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## ALW248 (Mar 19, 2014)

Etsu said:


> People who spout nutty theories seldom believe they are nutty. I'm not sure what benefit looking inside the mind of a nut has, other than psychological interest.
> Even if you could prove to him that his crackpot theory is wrong, he'd never believe it. His conspiracy theory would just expand to accuse you of running a flawed test. You'll never win. It's like trying to convince someone that believes the moon landing was faked he's wrong. Every bit of evidence you provide to show we really did land people on the moon, would be used against you as an ever-expanding conspiracy.



It is you who use empty words and refuse to do any tests by yourself.

My NiMH were aging. So I went on internet and found Eneloop. I was excited by the high voltage and high current capabilities. I hoped that Eneloop would improve the sound of my audio devices.

But actually Eneloop sounds worse. A lot worse. I could not believe it. I was confused. I thought it possible that Eneloop would not improve the sound, because maybe the devices are not that demanding that all batteries sound the same. But the healthy Eneloop sounds worse, with their measured higher voltage and current capabilities?

The theory I came up with is that Eneloop is slower in transient power supply. When the devices ask for power, the chemical reaction in batteries can be slower than the speed of light. Eneloop makes LSD possible by creating lattice that fits hydrogen more snugly, that hydrogen is less likely to escape from the lattice and cause self discharge. This might also make the hydrogen to be slower to be released from the lattice in transient discharge. Note that the slower transient discharge does not hinder the constant discharge performance. Repeated cyclic pulse discharge might not be affected either.

I don't claim that my theory is correct. I am in electrical engineering, not chemical engineering. It is just an explanation of what I observe in practice. But I do believe that what I observe is real.

After I realized that not all batteries sound the same in my devices, that the all mighty Eneloop sounds much worse than my aging NiMH, I want to try to find batteries that sound even better. The obvious choice is new healthy non-LSD NiMH. They do sound better. But most NiMH are switching to LSD.

Then I tried NiCd and NiZn. NiZn is the best.

I think it is not controversial at all to say that NiZn might have better transient power performance in your devices, that NiZn is worth a try. Blindly believing Eneloop to be the best won't do you any good.


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## HKJ (Mar 19, 2014)

Just for fun, here is a eneloop with puls loads at different frequencies:














The 10 Hz was to get a baseline, i.e. how much does the voltage drop when loading with a bit above 2A.
Anything above 10kHz is not really relevant, the equipment will probably be using capacitors to handle that.

To make the curves I uses a electronic relay controlled from a function generator.


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## uk_caver (Mar 19, 2014)

So it would seem that at short timescales, the voltage drop under transient loading is initially _delayed_ (possibly due to there being enough ions/reactants/whatever in the vicinity of the electrodes?).


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## HKJ (Mar 19, 2014)

uk_caver said:


> So it would seem that at short timescales, the voltage drop under transient loading is initially delayed (possibly due to there being enough ions/reactants/whatever in the vicinity of the electrodes?).



No, that is the switching speed of my relay.


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## Power Me Up (Mar 19, 2014)

ALW248 said:


> I don't claim that my theory is correct.



Actually, you did:



ALW248 said:


> I have now tried other batteries. For audio enjoyment:
> NiZn > NiCd > NiMH > Eneloop
> 
> I am very glad that NiZn is available. Now I can forget about Eneloop, NiMH, and NiCd.



You didn't add any disclaimers such as YMMV, or "In my experience" etc, just a statement of fact.

Can you articulate some possible reasons why you might be wrong?


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## Power Me Up (Mar 19, 2014)

HKJ said:


> Just for fun, here is a eneloop with puls loads at different frequencies:



That's interesting to see. Would it be possible to do additional tests that also measure current over time and also repeat the same tests with a non LSD cell?


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## Power Me Up (Mar 19, 2014)

ALW248 said:


> I don't claim that my theory is correct.



I meant to say before that I applaud you for being honest enough to admit that you could be wrong. At the very least, it indicates to me that you're not completely crazy! ;-)


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## HKJ (Mar 20, 2014)

Power Me Up said:


> That's interesting to see. Would it be possible to do additional tests that also measure current over time and also repeat the same tests with a non LSD cell?



Yes, that will be possible, but it will be a separate thread. This puls load is used very much in flashlights (pwm).
If people has good ideas what to include in this kind of test, please send an email or a PM. My ideas until now is: eneloop, Tensai (non lsd), alkaline, 18650 LiIon and also to include a test at a lower frequency.


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## Albinoni1967 (Mar 23, 2014)

Is it true though that most people would rather use Eneloops in a torch over Alkaline


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