# What short arc for maxabeam-like searchlight?



## Enderman (Dec 3, 2016)

Hi, I'm planning to build a flashlight similar to a maxabeam, but I'm not as familiar with short arc bulbs as other people here are.
If all I'm trying to get is throw, is there any better option than the same bulb that the maxabeam uses?
Shorter arc with higher intensity maybe?

If there is no better option then it's pretty easy to get a maxabeam bulb from ebay or someplace, such as this one http://www.ebay.com/itm/Maxa-Beam-M...ght-Peak-NEW-in-Box-MBS-410-430-/171630234252
Thanks for any help


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## PolarLi (Dec 3, 2016)

I believe the 100W Osram HBO (mercury) lamp Ra used in his maxablaster has a shorter arc gap and higher intensity than the Maxabeam Xenon lamp. Not sure if you find a low voltage ballast for that one. An alternative where you do get a low voltage ballast is Ushio SMR or SMH lamps. These have a 1.2 mm arc gap and can be driven up to 100 watt using this: http://www.rotec-gmbh.com/images/lightning/downloads/Datenblaetter/Rotec-datasheet-bcs-75.pdf
The lumen output should be around 5000-6000, but I can't say for sure if this lamp actually is enough to beat the maxabeam in throw, used in the same size reflector. 
You also get the low wattage Solarc lamps from Ushio 10-50 watt, these also have low voltage ballasts you can buy directly from Ushio. Prepare to pay premium for all of the above...

Now, if you are willing to use an inverter to get mains voltage, you can builds all kinds of crazy lights using UHP video projector lamps. I was able to get 55 Mcd from a 7.9 inch reflector using a 350 Watt UHP lamp so they do throw good... But with these wattages, you need fan cooling, a hefty battery and 380 volt DC, so either an inverter to PSU to ballast, or a modified inverter where you can tap 380 volt DC. Either way, it wont be an EDC light... You also need to hotwire the ballast, and cut the lamp out of the reflector. (reflector cutting also goes for the Ushio lamps)The plus side is that these UHP systems are cheap.


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## Enderman (Dec 3, 2016)

Thanks for all the info!
I have heard a lot of talk of the osram HBO 100w/2, and it's apparently ~0.5mm arc gap and 130 000 cd/mm^2, is there somewhere I can find the spec for the maxabeam bulb?

Also what is the arc gap for UHP lamps? is it a lot shorter?
55mcd sounds great and this isn't supposed to be an EDC light, an external battery and fan cooling will be used regardless of what lamp I use, although all the inverters, ballast, etc... sound extremely inefficient and heavy...


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## PolarLi (Dec 4, 2016)

I'm not sure what the maxabeam lamp specs are. Hopefully someone else can fill you in on this. But we know it's a xenon lamp. And Xenon have a very intense hotspot at the cathode tip that is great for throw - *if* you pair it with a high precision reflector.
Another big plus is instant on. No warm up.

UHP lamps on the other hand are AC driven, just like all automotive lamps and other metal halide lamps, and have two hotspots, one at each electrode tip. This is generally not good for throw. But because of the short arc in UHP lamps, only 0.8-1.3 mm, and a lot of power, these two hotspots more or less merge into one. I actually took a picture of the arc of that 350 watt lamp I mentioned.
The arc gap you see on that lamp is 1 - 1.2 mm, and it's producing around 19000 lumens:






Btw, what is your "throw goal"? And how big reflector can you use?


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## Enderman (Dec 4, 2016)

Ah I see, I guess UHP would be great for a lot of lumens too.
I actually might still have the ballast for a 200W UHP lamp I have lying around, I will try getting the ballast to turn on later in december or january.

There is no throw goal, just something with farther throw and more lumens than my 1Mcd aspheric.
The reflector will probably be a 6" phoenix, although I found a used 9" optiforms reflector for like $50 so I might use that too. Not sure yet.
The maxabeam reflector is about 5" so I figured a bit larger would work just as well.


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## PolarLi (Dec 4, 2016)

1-2 Mcd is within reach for automotive HID's, so that aint to hard to get. But definitely take a look at that 200 watt UHP system you may or may not have. I tested a so called 5R lamp and ballast in that 7.9 reflector, and with a 1 mm arc gap (approx) and 190 watt going to the lamp I got 37 Mcd. So based on that with a 6" AQ reflector, perhaps 20 Mcd? 

On aliexpress they sell packages with this 5R lamps, 200 watt 1 mm arc, complete with ballast for around $45, and if you search for "moving head power 5r" you find the 380vdc power supply for around $60.


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## Enderman (Dec 4, 2016)

$45 sounds great for a combo like that.
The 380vdc power supply is driven by 120/240v AC correct? So I would need a 24vdc to 120/240v ac converter?


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## PolarLi (Dec 4, 2016)

Correct and correct!
But there may be another, more compact and even cheaper option for the power delivery. It only require a simple circuit and some soldering. I do have the "device" here. But I never actually tried it out on the actual ballast and lamp. But I will give it a try today or tomorrow. I'll let you know how it turns out.


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## Enderman (Dec 4, 2016)

Ok thank you


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## Enderman (Dec 4, 2016)

I did more research, it seems the maxabeam uses a UXL-75PB Ushio lamp, but I sent an email to PeakBeam just to confirm that the gen3 is still using this lamp, because it might have been changed from gen 1/2.
The UXL-75PB has a 0.8mm arc gap, 1000 lumens, and 90cd horizontal (not sure about cd/mm^2)
The HBO103W/2 has a .25mm arc gap, 3000lm, and 300cd horizontal (170000cd/mm^2)

So yeah, the HBO seems like a MUCH more powerful option than the stock maxabeam bulb 
I also sent an email to osram to confirm that this is the highest cd/mm^2 bulb they sell, just in case I missed something in the spec sheets.

Now I'm going to look for some cd/mm^2 specs for UHP lamps to compare to the HBO103W/2.


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## PolarLi (Dec 5, 2016)

So I did get the UHP lamp to run on a car battery, kind of... I used a 12 volt DC-AC inverter, 500W. These put out 380 VAC and cost about $10 on ebay. On the output I have a rectifier and a capacitor. The entire thing weigh maybe 200 gram so it's a compact solution. However there is problems. There is no voltage regulation, so input must be spot on for it to actual deliver 380 volt. Small changes in input voltage send it from 300 volt-ish, to over 400 volt. So if you use this on a small battery pack, the voltage will be all over the place depending on how much juice the batteries have left. The other issues was to little power to the lamp. Was missing almost 30 watt, so the ballast is not liking it. So if you go the UHP way, I recomend to first get it to work with a normal AC-DC power supply, and do some tests with that, before you try other ways of supplying power.


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## Enderman (Dec 5, 2016)

Ok cool, thanks. PeakBeam replied and yes the maxabeam uses a UXL-75PB lamp.
I'm really tempted to go with a HBO103W/2 because it seems like there is no "proper" solution to power UHP lamps from a battery...

I was searching for ballasts for the HBO103W/2 and only found two:
https://www.aelight.com/content/ballast-mercuryxenon-short-arc-xbo-35-75w-hbo-75-103w
This is the one first used in that maxablaster or whatever it was called by Ra, but half way in the thread he said that it died on him.
It also doesn't seem great because it needs an igniter and has a bunch of plugs on the board, and little documentation.
Then he switched to the second one I found which is below:

This one actually runs on higher DC or AC voltage so I would still need a step up to run off of 24v lipo, but documentation is much better, has built in cooling, built in igniter, and seems much better quality:
http://www.celinius.com/index.php?p=portfolio-item&s_q=HBX76
It costs $500 but I want something that will work, not burn out like in the maxablaster, so maybe the loss of efficiency in the inverter will be worth it
Same brand as the first ballast you linked me, but unfortunately that one only works for ULR, SMH, SMR lamps and not HBO :C

Thoughts? Any other ballasts around that work for the HBO103W/2?
I'm guessing a random 100W ballast from ebay is not going to do the job because the lamp voltage, current, and ignition voltage need to match up.


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## PolarLi (Dec 5, 2016)

As you said, the ballast you found on the celinus site are the same brand Rotec sell, but they also have all the other models if you go to their main site.
And those products are definitely good quality and plug and play. Ushio also sells the same ballast called "Smartarc HBX-76" And I think that was the one Ra used. 

But I don't know of any other ballast for that lamp that could be considered compact. However, you can find used stationary units on Ebay if you search for HBO power supply, but these are big, heavy beasts. 
As for random ballasts, I wouldn't personally go down that route. I have blown up one lamp by not using the proper ballast, and I don't want to repeat that.


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## Enderman (Dec 5, 2016)

Oh yeah, rather not cheap out and have a mercury explosion xD
Thanks for the search terms, I see all the HBO power supplies now.
12/24v to 120 or 220v inverters are everywhere, so finding a good one for less than a hundred bucks is easy.
I will probably go with the HBX because I want this light to be portable, although it will take some time to save up for that.
At least I've got the parts list down now  Thanks for all the help!


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## Enderman (Dec 5, 2016)

Found another HBO100 ballast, they claim it works for the HBO100 but I sent them an email to confirm it will work with the HBO103, and also to ask about the cost.
http://www.schiederwerk.de/images/infobox/doc/id243/EVG5nDC-spec-sheet.pdf
Also well documented and looks like good quality!


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## PolarLi (Dec 5, 2016)

Yeah, forgot about Scheiderwerk. I actually have a HMI ballast from them. And their products seems to be top notch. But they don't to sell to private customers. The last time I was in contact with them, I asked them a simple yes - no question about the brand new ballast I had bought on ebay. But they basically said they had the answer, but refused to give it to me beacuse I wasn't an authorized dealer


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## Enderman (Dec 5, 2016)

Oh well that sucks...:/


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## Ra54 (Dec 6, 2016)

Hi guyzz,
I'm very pleased to see that my Maxablaster, which I created in 2006, still is going strong in your minds today.

I'm not very pleased that, probably because I was away for a long time, I could not login to my good old "Ra" account..
And so needed to re-register, now with more than 3 characters in my username.. So I'm a newbee now.. 
A newbee with a history..
It is nice to see that almost everyone who tries to make a powerful short arc torchlight, sees Maxablaster as the big example.
I'm going to do some reading now.

BTW: Maxablaster still is very alive, in my bedroom closet.. Needing new batteries, but that will happen soon.


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## PolarLi (Dec 6, 2016)

Welcome back!
Great to see you around here :thumbsup:

And there is a reason why people still bring up your light, beside the fact you made the first homemade SA light, and set the standard with that. Thing is, I can't recall there has been built many self contained, portable SA lights here or anywhere for that matter. I know one person made a similar light a few years after you, but other than that, nothing? Most SA projects seems to have been less portable lights or lights with not so good reflectors.


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## Ra54 (Dec 6, 2016)

Hi PolarLi,
It indeed involved a lot of thinking to complete Maxablaster the way I wanted.
You are totally right about the importance of the reflector, i needed to work on the front of the reflector, to prevent even the smallest deformation when the reflector was mounted touching the front window.
Indeed its a painstaking job to make the reflector send all the light of a 0.03 square mm arc into that one point at infinity..


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## Enderman (Dec 6, 2016)

OMG THE LEGEND IS BACK!
Holy crap I thought you were gone forever since your original account had been inactive for years...
I have to say, thank you so much for all the inspiration


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## Ra54 (Dec 6, 2016)

Thankyou for the warm words Enderman.
Greta is hopefully going to restore my original account.
I noticed that i have a lot of reading to do here, lots of new stuff after being away for so long.


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## Enderman (Dec 6, 2016)

Haha I'm pretty new here too, but I've been lurking and reading topics from this forum for years when researching about flashlight stuff.


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## Ra (Dec 6, 2016)

I'm back with my original account, thanks to Greta..Now the fun can restart.
I notice that i need to grab me a new avatar, well, I will do that the coming days..

Edit.. No.. I apparently don't need to, but why didn't it show in my profile settings? Weird.. well never mind.


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## Enderman (Dec 6, 2016)

Woo! 

Also, Polarli, I actually got a reply back from Scheiderwerk, they seem like they will cooperate, now I'm waiting for them to tell me the cost and confirm the HBO103W/2 will work.

While I save up to build this crazy HID thrower, I'm working on my aspheric thrower 
I have almost reached 1.5M cd! If I am correct, this would be the longest throw distance LED flashlight ever made?


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## PolarLi (Dec 7, 2016)

That's pretty nice LED numbers you got there! In fact, nice numbers for anything called a flashlight. What lens diameter are we talking about here?


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## Enderman (Dec 7, 2016)

100mm, cheap lens from fasttech, I haven't found any better ones...even though I have tried like 20 others...

The only way I have managed to exceed it is using a dual lens system with one 70mm aspheric + huge 10" spherical lens from a theater spotlight, and I got over 2M lux with that.
But there is no way I consider a 10" cylinder that weighs like 20kg a "flashlight"
There was someone else that made a topic on this forum about a 2M lux led light using this same dual-lens system, also with a huge 10" lens.

That's why I still think that the 100mm light I am working on is still the farthest throwing "LED flashlight" in the world.
If something can't be held in one hand and easily pointed around, then it's not a flashlight 
Also the reason why I mention "LED", there are plenty of HID throwers that get way more than 1.5Mcd.


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## The_Driver (Dec 7, 2016)

Enderman said:


> While I save up to build this crazy HID thrower, I'm working on my aspheric thrower
> I have almost reached 1.5M cd! If I am correct, this would be the longest throw distance LED flashlight ever made?



Sorry, but somebody has already built one with substantially higher Candela values here. He uses a de-domed XM-L2 (a lot of potential improvement there), a Wavien collar and a very large asperic lens to get over 3 Million Candela.

This is a very interesting thread though .

@Ra: great to have you back! Some much has happened in the last few years (concerning LED technology). Maybe you can also check out the German TLF forum (and blf forum). We have some dutch members and a lot of custom LED throwers have been built in the last few years. Just recently the 1 Million Candela mark was reached with a single LED in a medium sized reflector.


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## Enderman (Dec 7, 2016)

The_Driver said:


> Sorry, but somebody has already built one with substantially higher Candela values here. He uses a de-domed XM-L2 (a lot of potential improvement there), a Wavien collar and a very large asperic lens to get over 3 Million Candela.


I can't see anything on that website? Is a login required or something? It's in some other language...


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## The_Driver (Dec 7, 2016)

Enderman said:


> I can't see anything on that website? Is a login required or something? It's in some other language...



It's the German flashlight forum (you need to register to see some things). Here are some (older) pictures of the light.
Here is a beamshot comparison. The last light at the bottom of the page is the one we are talking about.

You can beat the light if you use a Cree Xp-G2 LED or a Osram Black Flat Gen 2 LED (highest luminance you can get currently) and a Wavien Collar.


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## Enderman (Dec 7, 2016)

The_Driver said:


> It's the German flashlight forum (you need to register to see some things). Here are some (older) pictures of the light.
> Here is a beamshot comparison. The last light at the bottom of the page is the one we are talking about.
> 
> You can beat the light if you use a Cree Xp-G2 LED or a Osram Black Flat Gen 2 LED (highest luminance you can get currently) and a Wavien Collar.


Oh that one! Yeah I remember seeing pics of that a long time ago when researching LED flashlights 
I just googled it again, these are the specs: de-domed XM-L2, aspheric lens diameter = 208mm, 2.366.823 lux

Based on the size, I would not classify this as a "flashlight", just like I wouldn't classify my 10" (254mm) cylinder as a flashlight.
I could probably get 3 or 4M+ lux out of that, if I got 2M lux with crappy focusing, no wavien collar, and an XP-G2 at 3A.
But that's a project for a later time!
If a 208mm lens would count as a flashlight, then my 254mm lens should too, since it is less than 50mm bigger.

Based on the pictures of the photon mod, it doesn't look like a "flashlight" either, it is just the lens mounted to an aluminum stand with the LED in it?
Not sure because I can't see any pics of the full or finished light on google images.

I guess it really depends on the subjective definition of a flashlight though...


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## The_Driver (Dec 7, 2016)

The collar was added later, No pics yet. Now over 3Mcd, you can believe me. He is just the first guy to combine the collar with such a big lens. I know the man personally.

Scheinwerfer means spotlight in German. I consider everything a flashlight as long as it has no cable and can be carried.


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## Enderman (Dec 7, 2016)

The_Driver said:


> The collar was added later, No pics yet. Now over 3Mcd, you can believe me. He is just the first guy to combine the collar with such a big lens. I know the man personally.
> 
> Scheinwerfer means spotlight in German. I consider everything a flashlight as long as it has no cable and can be carried.


So in your opinion a hellfighter 4 is not a flashlight because it has a cable?
Anyway, the definition of a flashlight is subjective I guess.

Do you have any pics of the photon mod finished?
The only pics I can see of it are just a head with the lens sitting on an aluminum stand, no battery or flashlight body or anything.


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## The_Driver (Dec 7, 2016)

Enderman said:


> So in your opinion a hellfighter 4 is not a flashlight because it has a cable?
> Anyway, the definition of a flashlight is subjective I guess.



In my opinion: yes, but who cares .
Calling it a flashlight or not doesn't really change anything. 



Enderman said:


> Do you have any pics of the photon mod finished?
> The only pics I can see of it are just a head with the lens sitting on an aluminum stand, no battery or flashlight body or anything.



Not really, maybe someone took some at one of the local meets we had here (Photon has attended some of them). 

I think the batteries are mounted at the back. It's a very crude design. He just built it because he found the optic at some ham-radio flea market (apparantly all kinds of random stuff is sold there). 

Concerning the topic of the thread:
Please keep in mind the high amounts of uv radition that the HBO puts out. Ra talks about this in his thread. It's very dangerous and can also degrade some materials inside the light if it isn't constructed properly.


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## Enderman (Dec 7, 2016)

The_Driver said:


> In my opinion: yes, but who cares .
> Calling it a flashlight or not doesn't really change anything.
> 
> Not really, maybe someone took some at one of the local meets we had here (Photon has attended some of them).
> ...


Ok, well I guess I can settle for longest throw led flashlight in the 100mm class then 
Or build a 4Mcd thrower with the 10" lens I have and call it a flashlight.

Also, I double checked the definition of a flashlight, and it says anything portable, so technically I could still use an external battery inside a backpack or briefcase and it would still be a flashlight 
Just no cable that goes to wall power or stuff like that.

Would the UV degrade the interior of a rhodium coated reflector?
Do I need to go with silver or aluminum or something like that?
There will be a UV filter on the front of course.


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## The_Driver (Dec 7, 2016)

Enderman said:


> Ok, well I guess I can settle for longest throw led flashlight in the 100mm class then
> Or build a 4Mcd thrower with the 10" lens I have and call it a flashlight.



Do you by any chance have a Wavien Collar? It makes all the differance (it doubles the luminance of small LEDs in combination with aspheric lenses). 



Enderman said:


> Also, I double checked the definition of a flashlight, and it says anything portable, so technically I could still use an external battery inside a backpack or briefcase and it would still be a flashlight
> Just no cable that goes to wall power or stuff like that.
> 
> Would the UV degrade the interior of a rhodium coated reflector?
> ...



No, rhodium is used precisley for this reason - it's very robust. Optically it's not as good as other coatings (only 75% reflectance in the visible spectrum). 
Aluminium is the most fragile coating (it will degrade under UV), but the cheapest one with high reflectance (90% reflectance in the visible spectrum). 
There are coatings like "enhanced rhodium" which are the best of both worlds. There are more expensive though (as are large mirrors in general).

If you want to use a cable to power your light - go ahead. Nobody will stop you. I wouldn't worry so much about that.


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## Enderman (Dec 7, 2016)

The_Driver said:


> Do you by any chance have a Wavien Collar? It makes all the differance (it doubles the luminance of small LEDs in combination with aspheric lenses).
> 
> No, rhodium is used precisley for this reason - it's very robust. Optically it's not as good as other coatings (only 75% reflectance in the visible spectrum).
> Aluminium is the most fragile coating (it will degrade under UV), but the cheapest one with high reflectance (90% reflectance in the visible spectrum).
> ...



1) yeah I have a collar, that's what boosted me from 900k lux to 1.46m lux

2) cool, now I know, rhodium it is 

3) For a handheld one like my throw LED one probably not, but for this HID one I definitely will, I just build a nice tiny battery supply inside a pelican 1120 with a really nice cable and connector.
Battery case in one hand (or backpack) and flashlight in the other will help relieve weight from one arm for long carrying sessions 

4) I just got an email back from Schiederwerk, apparently they only mass produce their ballasts when they get an order for many of them from a company, and it isn't cost efficient for them to build only one.
I guess I could have asked them to add 1 unit for me to the next company that orders a bulk order, but I doubt it would end up below $500 anyway so it's easier to stick with the HBX76 which Ra already confirmed works great.

5) I just realized I've been calculating lux and cd wrong this whole time, and my numbers don't really mean anything because the farther I take my measurement, the more cd I get.
http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb...ula-for-calculating-throw-using-aspheric-lens
I should be using this instead: http://nightsword.com/uniformbeamcalc/

I tested this with a small aspheric flashlight, I got 12000 lux at 1m which is 12000cd, but 4500 lux at 2m which is 18000cd.
A point source of light should be 3000 lux at 2m because of the 1/r^2 equation.

Maybe if I took my measurements at 100m I would get 10 million cd? xD
I will take some longer distance measurements soon and measure the diameter of the spot so I can calculate the TRUE candela / candlepower/ lux at 1m / whatever you want to call it


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## The_Driver (Dec 7, 2016)

If you tell me some specifics of your light I can calculate you your candela.
The two most important things are the diameter of the optic/reflector and the luminance of the light source (for LEDs I can help you with this, a guy in the German forum has measured this for many LEDs).
I can then calculate the Candela rating of the brightest part of the beam.

If you want a more precise calculation I need to know more specifics, like if your lens is coated, how you heatsinked your LED etc.


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## Enderman (Dec 7, 2016)

The_Driver said:


> If you tell me some specifics of your light I can calculate you your candela.
> The two most important things are the diameter of the optic/reflector and the luminance of the light source (for LEDs I can help you with this, a guy in the German forum has measured this for many LEDs).
> I can then calculate the Candela rating of the brightest part of the beam.
> 
> If you want a more precise calculation I need to know more specifics, like if your lens is coated, how you heatsinked your LED etc.



Well the LED is 1.45mm x 1.45mm, which is 2.1025mm^2 and produces 1000-1200lm, so that is 475.62 to 570.75 lumens/mm^2
However 1 lumen = 1cd per steradian, so idk how you would get the cd/mm^2 from that ^

The lens is uncoated borsilicate glass, and the LED is on a fan cooled CPU heatsink that keeps it at less than 40C under full load.

I think the most accurate way of measuring the true candlepower would just be measuring the size of the spot at 50m or something like that, then easily finding how far behind the lens the rays converge with simple trig.

Thanks for the help though!


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## PolarLi (Dec 7, 2016)

The UV degradation of aluminium quartz coatings is slow. You will have several hundreds hours of burntime before noticable degradation occurs.
In other words, several lamp changes.
Just make sure you keep the reflector below 250F. That's atleast the information I got from Phoenix. 

As for UV, regular soda lime glass block everything below approx 320 nm. Borosilicate go down to 290-300 nm. 
You can check the glass datasheets for more details. Either way, you are basically left with the same type of UV you get from the sun, mostly UVA, and a little bit of UVB depending on the Ozone layer. 
But still, it ain't a toy, and it can burn you more than one way so to speak.


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## NoNotAgain (Dec 7, 2016)

The_Driver said:


> Scheinwerfer means spotlight in German. I consider everything a flashlight as long as it has no cable and can be carried.



By your definition the Surefire Hellfighter 4 is a flashlight as well as the Hellfighter 5 since both lights have a self contained lithium battery. 

Just so happens that you can also use the mil cable to charge as well as operate the light. 

The same cable that operates the original Hellfighter light also powers the Polarion Night Reaper light. The Hellfighter 4 requires a different cable since the light has a high/low setting and a strobe function. 

As for using a Wavien collar on a short arc tube, I think the temperature of the tube would melt the collar. If a glass collar existed, you'd have to be bug nut on in the placement of the tube for maximum culminated light and not interfere with the arc focus.


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## Enderman (Dec 7, 2016)

PolarLi said:


> The UV degradation of aluminium quartz coatings is slow. You will have several hundreds hours of burntime before noticable degradation occurs.
> In other words, several lamp changes.
> Just make sure you keep the reflector below 250F. That's atleast the information I got from Phoenix.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the info  It would be fan cooled, so temps shouldn't be an issue. I always like to go overkill on the cooling.



NoNotAgain said:


> By your definition the Surefire Hellfighter 4 is a flashlight as well as the Hellfighter 5 since both lights have a self contained lithium battery.
> 
> Just so happens that you can also use the mil cable to charge as well as operate the light.
> 
> ...


I thought the HF4 didn't have a built in battery unless you get the tube extension thingy? I know the HF5 does.
I don't think anyone mentioned a wavien collar on a short arc light, that is for my other LED flashlight.
The wavien collar is glass though.


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## PolarLi (Dec 7, 2016)

Do not go overkill on the cooling (except it's only on the reflector) To much air flow over the arc chamber on a mercury lamp will give you reduced output.


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## Enderman (Dec 7, 2016)

PolarLi said:


> Do not go overkill on the cooling (except it's only on the reflector) To much air flow over the arc chamber on a mercury lamp will give you reduced output.


Cooling for the reflector I mean, it's easy to make air flow around the outside of the reflector without touching the lamp.
The HBO103 says it should be cooled by convection, so a slow airflow inside the reflector area should be ideal.
It's different for LEDs though, lower temp = higher output, I was considering using liquid cooling for one of my LED projects.


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## The_Driver (Dec 8, 2016)

NoNotAgain said:


> By your definition the Surefire Hellfighter 4 is a flashlight as well as the Hellfighter 5 since both lights have a self contained lithium battery.
> 
> Just so happens that you can also use the mil cable to charge as well as operate the light.
> 
> ...



Why are you making a topic of this in this thread? Who cares what anybody defines as a flashlight for his or herself? It doesn't matter. 

When we were talking about the Wavien collar, we were talking about Endermans LED spotlight. 

Using such a mirror with a short-arc bulb can be done, but then it's called a retro-reflector. It serves a completely different purpose though in that case. A retro-reflector collects more light, making the spot and corona of spotlight bigger and eliminating the spill.

The Wavien colar for LEDS reflects wasted light back onto an LED where it is reconverted to a light of different Wavelength (mainly blue light to yellow-green light) and exits the LED at different angle and then hits the lens. It is basically an increase in luminance.



Enderman said:


> Well the LED is 1.45mm x 1.45mm, which is 2.1025mm^2 and produces 1000-1200lm, so that is 475.62 to 570.75 lumens/mm^2
> However 1 lumen = 1cd per steradian, so idk how you would get the cd/mm^2 from that ^
> 
> The lens is uncoated borsilicate glass, and the LED is on a fan cooled CPU heatsink that keeps it at less than 40C under full load.
> ...





Enderman said:


> 1) yeah I have a collar, that's what boosted me from 900k lux to 1.46m lux
> 
> 2) cool, now I know, rhodium it is
> 
> ...



Ok, lets talk about calculating Candela/lux. It much easier than you think.
I will show you a formula for calculating maximum center-beam Lux for any light with a lightsource and a reflector or optic. All you need is the diameter of the reflector/optic and the luminance of the light source. 
Lets use your 100mm lens and a Cree XP-G2 as an example. Luminance values for the XP-G2 can be found in different threads in the German TLF Forum (sorry, no English, just use google translate). Here you can find a luminance values of many different LEDS (measured) and many other lightsources. TLF-member sma is an expert on this subject and has gone to painstaking effort to measure theses values as accurately as possible for him. You can see there that a Cree XP-G2 R5 mounted on copper "DTP" PCB will reach a maximum of 200cd/mm^2 under ideal conditions. The problem with this LED is that Cree increased the size of the DIE twice last year (see here). The larger the DIE, the smaller the luminance (unless there are much more lumens emitted from the larger DIE). The old R5 and S2 LEDs had the small DIE. Then came the S3 and S4 Bins which probably were one size larger. Later on Cree made the DIE bigger again. This is the size of the current S4-binned XP-G2s (and the luminance is probably not as high as before). Here is a measurement of a larger S4-binned emitter, probably the medium sized DIE. It's still quite good. Now wee want to find out how the luminance changes with the Wavien colar. sma also studied and measured this here (he used an old-style XP-G2 S2 and all three collar sizes). Generally at the maximum possible current and perfect focussing (very difficult with the Wavien collar) you can expect up to 2.2x the luminance (which is amazing). He measured 470cd/mm^2 @ 6A. I will use this value for my calculation.
Imagine that you are looking at the optic your light from where the hotspot would be. From this perspective the reflector/optic looks like a flat circle. We now need to calculate the area of the circle that is lit up by the LED (the part that is yellow). For a 100mm diameter lens, this is (50mm)^2*pi = 7854mm^2. Now all you have to do is multiply this with the luminance of your LED and subtract some losses. 

Luminous intensity = luminance * surface_area_of_optic * losses_lens_transmission * losses_because_of_heat
= 470cd/mm^2 * 7854mm^2 * 0.92 * 0.95
= 3226266cd = 3.23Mcd

So if there are no substantial problems with your light and you are using a "good" XP-G2 @ 6A with an optimally placed collar and the 100mm fasttech lens is lit up completely by the LED, you should be getting 3 Million Candela. 

Details on the formula I used can be found here. The well known DrJones might also have an English explanation on his website, but I am not able to open it.


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## Mr. Tone (Dec 8, 2016)

Ra said:


> I'm back with my original account, thanks to Greta..Now the fun can restart.
> I notice that i need to grab me a new avatar, well, I will do that the coming days..
> 
> Edit.. No.. I apparently don't need to, but why didn't it show in my profile settings? Weird.. well never mind.



Wow, it's awesome to see you back! Your avatar is great and hopefully it doesn't disappear.


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## Enderman (Dec 8, 2016)

The_Driver said:


> Ok, lets talk about calculating Candela/lux. It much easier than you think.
> I will show you a formula for calculating maximum center-beam Lux for any light with a lightsource and a reflector or optic. All you need is the diameter of the reflector/optic and the luminance of the light source.
> Lets use your 100mm lens and a Cree XP-G2 as an example. Luminance values for the XP-G2 can be found in different threads in the German TLF Forum (sorry, no English, just use google translate). Here you can find a luminance values of many different LEDS (measured) and many other lightsources. TLF-member sma is an expert on this subject and has gone to painstaking effort to measure theses values as accurately as possible for him. You can see there that a Cree XP-G2 R5 mounted on copper "DTP" PCB will reach a maximum of 200cd/mm^2 under ideal conditions. The problem with this LED is that Cree increased the size of the DIE twice last year (see here). The larger the DIE, the smaller the luminance (unless there are much more lumens emitted from the larger DIE). The old R5 and S2 LEDs had the small DIE. Then came the S3 and S4 Bins which probably were one size larger. Later on Cree made the DIE bigger again. This is the size of the current S4-binned XP-G2s (and the luminance is probably not as high as before). Here is a measurement of a larger S4-binned emitter, probably the medium sized DIE. It's still quite good. Now wee want to find out how the luminance changes with the Wavien colar. sma also studied and measured this here (he used an old-style XP-G2 S2 and all three collar sizes). Generally at the maximum possible current and perfect focussing (very difficult with the Wavien collar) you can expect up to 2.2x the luminance (which is amazing). He measured 470cd/mm^2 @ 6A. I will use this value for my calculation.
> Imagine that you are looking at the optic your light from where the hotspot would be. From this perspective the reflector/optic looks like a flat circle. We now need to calculate the area of the circle that is lit up by the LED (the part that is yellow). For a 100mm diameter lens, this is (50mm)^2*pi = 7854mm^2. Now all you have to do is multiply this with the luminance of your LED and subtract some losses.
> ...


Cool, thanks for all the work 
Definitely was underestimating my results then!
Of course the lens is far from professional grade quality, and my collar focusing is + or - a tenth of a mm, so the final results will require tests irl, but it's nice to have an idea of what to expect 

I just did a short range test for fun the other day (even though I need to measure at several hundred feet to get an accurate result), but just with a quick ~5m test of divergence the calculator showed 50M candlepower xD I thought that was pretty funny.
Unfortunately that is definitely not the real number :C


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## Enderman (Dec 26, 2016)

Hey guys, I have a few questions so I'll just ask them in this thread rather than making another one:

1) how bad is the UV radiation from the HBO103W/2?
Not considering a focused beam, but just light shining directly on you from the bulb, only for a couple minutes or even less.
Is it as bad as sunlight? Or worse?
Looking into the beam can probably blind you but just seeing the bulb for a few seconds will not cause any damage correct?

2) does anyone have the emission "profile" of the HBO100 or 103 bulb?
The only thing I could find is this for a generic mercury lamp, but the HBO bulbs have that small metal cover on one end, and I'm not sure if that will significantly reduce the angle.
http://zeiss-campus.magnet.fsu.edu/articles/lightsources/images/mercurylampsfigure2.jpg

3) I would assume the anode (thick terminal) should be on the close side of the reflector and cathode on the opening side? So that the metal shield is reflecting backwards instead of forwards.


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## PolarLi (Dec 27, 2016)

1) The UV question has been asked a few times before, and I have not seen any conclusive answers yet. Probably because it's impossible to give one...
Light directly from the lamp, without any lens protecting it, is theoretically worse than sunlight, because it emit UV-B and UV-C. But energy level and exposure time is the two main factors that will determine if you actually get any damage from it. My best suggestion is to simply wear long sleeves, gloves and a welding mask. Then you could be around that lamp for hours with no ill effects. That is a very safe and easy solution to a complicated question. If you are only exposed to spill light that bounce off a wall or something like that, I wouldn't personally worry about it for only a minute or two. 

2) I don't have that. But you can get somewhat close by simply take a high res picture like this: https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61t36-OUXOL._SL1500_.jpg Then just draw a straight line from a point in the middle between the anode and cathode, so it just clear the metal shield. And draw one line in the other direction so it clears the widest part of the anode. The two lines will make a emission profile very similar to illustration you linked to. 
Since this lamp has two hotspots, you could also draw two lines from each electrode tip in both directions.

3) In this case, yes. So avoid reflectors with very short focal lengths, as the light must clear the metal shield, so it can hit the outer edge of the reflector. 
This lamp can operate vertical, but is special, because it's supposed to have the cathode up and anode down. I had no idea about this til I saw the spec sheet at Osram today... Normally it's the other way around.


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## Enderman (Dec 27, 2016)

Thanks Polar!
Those are perfect answers 

I was researching lenses to protect the front and didn't know if I should prioritize clarity or UV resistance first.
Since I'm really careful about handling and where I point my lights I will not worry so much about UV protection.

I'm trying to go with the longest focal length reflector possible that still collects almost all the light, because I don't want to use a retro-reflector for this project, just a simple maxabeam-like setup. Got about half the components sourced so far, looking to complete this project before 2018.

Thank you for the help and have a great day!


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## PolarLi (Dec 27, 2016)

As I mentioned in another post above here, normal soda lime glass will block anything below 320 nm. And borosilicate block anything below approx 290-300 nm. (UV-B is 280-320 nm and UV-C is 200-280 nm) It's when or if you test the lamp without any lens you need to be really careful, not only because of a lot more UV, but also because of the explosion risk.


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## Enderman (Dec 28, 2016)

That's true, I will definitely use safety glasses or work behind a protection screen when testing the lamp.
I'm thinking of getting my lens from flashlightlens.com since they sell custom sizes, and I will need a 154mm piece.


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## Enderman (Dec 29, 2016)

I measured the angle from opposite points (aka hotspots) to get the maximum angle of the light using photoshop and a protractor image 
From one side there is 30 degrees blocked by the anode (leaving 60 degrees of light) and on the other side there is 45 degrees (+-5) of light blocked by the metal shroud.
Total light opening is about 105 degrees.

Looking at the reflector I was planning to use, it makes more sense to have the lamp with the shroud on the back and anode on the front because more light will go to the farther edges of the reflector (which is better at collimating since the distance to the lamp is farther)
Here is a diagram of the reflector I am planning to use, 10mm focal length (same as the one in the maxabeam) https://www.desmos.com/calculator/hmdppunkqq

58.5 degrees from the focal point to the edge of the reflector, which is very close to the 60 I calculated above. Having the metal shroud forward will only let 45 degrees of light out that way resulting in a lot of wasted reflector area.
If I wanted to go that route I would need to use a shallower (longer focal length) reflector, but the next step up in focal length is 19mm and there is nothing available in between 10-19 (from phoenix, optiforms is too expensive)
The 19mm focal length reflector is this one https://www.desmos.com/calculator/u6kpal5vzu and it only does 37 degrees to the edge, which IMO is too much light lost, needed to be minimum 40-45 degrees.


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## PolarLi (Dec 29, 2016)

I realize I forgot to mention one thing, the arc width. You could draw lines from the outer edge of the arc. You will end up with a slightly wider emission profile, but of course, with less intense light. 

You can install the lamp with anode forward, but I can't tell you how it will react when you tilt the light up. It won't instantly explode or anything, but you could get flicker and arc wander (so it lose focus) and overheating after a few minutes. But again, I can't say this for sure.


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## Enderman (Dec 29, 2016)

PolarLi said:


> I realize I forgot to mention one thing, the arc width. You could draw lines from the outer edge of the arc. You will end up with a slightly wider emission profile, but of course, with less intense light.
> 
> You can install the lamp with anode forward, but I can't tell you how it will react when you tilt the light up. It won't instantly explode or anything, but you could get flicker and arc wander (so it lose focus) and overheating after a few minutes. But again, I can't say this for sure.



I did consider the arc, so i took my measurements from opposing points to get an overestimate rather than an underestimate.
Basically, the maximum possible angle that light can leave.

I'll do some research on how the lamps behave in different orientations, I didn't know that was a thing.


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## Enderman (Dec 31, 2016)

Here are my angle calculations.
The angle of light towards the anode matches the HBO100 luminance profile image I found, 35 degrees.
The cathode end is reduced more though due to the metal shroud, and the HBO103 will have ~42 degrees blocked on that side, leaving 48 degrees of light.





When you zoom in to the full image to see the luminance profile image at the bottom, I drew red lines on there to show the angles where light is or is not blocked.
The green lines are the 38 degrees that this reflector captures, showing about 10 degrees of light that will be lost.
https://www.desmos.com/calculator/u6kpal5vzu

Having the cathode / metal shroud upwards might be the best option because this light will be pointing upwards a lot of the time, and flickering and fast degradation isn't something I would like.


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## PolarLi (Dec 31, 2016)

Great illustrations! You can still add a little more for the arc width. It won't change the angle over the anode much, because you are real close to the lamp stem already. But it will give you 2-3 degrees extra over the metal shield (but with less intensity) 

But what about going for the 19mm FL, and slightly up in diameter? 170-180 mm should be about perfect. And Phoenix can cut down a bigger reflector for you. Or, you can just bite the bullet and accept some losses. You will capture the most intense light anyway. I've been in the exact same dilemma myself lately, and I had to go for a non optimal reflector, because I already had the host. And as you probably know, a custom FL electroformed will cost you a lot money. :/


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## Enderman (Jan 1, 2017)

Yes I think I will go with the 19mm reflector in order to have the lamp in the correct orientation, and also because this is a mercury lamp rather than xenon.
The two separate hotspots will end up more collimated and "together" with a longer focal length, which isn't necessary with the maxabeam since it only has one hotspot in the xenon lamp.
The longer FL should compensate for this, although I would expect a bit more beam divergence than the maxabeam (even though candlepower will still be much higher)

You're right I could extend the reflector and it would capture more light, but I really wanted to limit this light to 6" size so that in the future I could swap out the aluminum housing with a carbon fiber tube.
But maybe I can just make a "head" that attaches to the 6" tube and increases the diameter to 8" for the reflector?
I will graph the 19mm reflector with larger diameters and consider this option.

PS I really like cylinder lights with no large head


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## Ra (Jan 8, 2017)

What amazes me, is that when I started my Maxablaster project threads here, only a few members were aware of what things were nessesary for obtaining the best throw.
And now many of you so much grew into this matter! Leaving not much for me to teach you.. You are the teachers now.

During the new year fireworks, the battery upgrade of Maxablaster proved its reliabillity, it was a nice sight to have it fully up and running again.

I hope I'm still allowed to give you all the best wishes for 2017..


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## Enderman (Jan 8, 2017)

Happy 2017 to you too!

It's great to have a role model to look up to when building projects like this, saves a ton of money from trial and error xD


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## The_Driver (May 27, 2017)

Any updates?


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## Enderman (May 28, 2017)

Nope, I have a bunch of other projects going on so I probably won't be building this for a while due to time/budget constraints.


Here is some of my research info if anyone else wants to build it themselves:


The HBO103 is the highest intensity lamp I have found thus far and I don't think there's anything better, so that part is pretty much confirmed.
It is a mercury lamp, so unlike the xeon in a maxabeam it will have two hotspots instead of one.
This means that the beam will have slightly higher divergence since if you focus the reflector at one hotspot then the other is out of focus, but each hotspot still has higher intensity than the maxabeam bulb, and it outputs more lumens too.

There are several brands that make/sell a ballast that can run this lamp, commonly called the HBX76, they cost about $400-500 USD.
Aliexpress had one for $250 USD a while ago but that one got sold. maybe it will come back in the future.

The easiest way to power these ballasts is to get a 12 (or 24) vdc to 120/240v ac inverter.
The inverter should be able to do at least 150W continuous for the ballast, the more the better (but also gets larger)
Pure sine wave inverters are prefered but the ballast will probably work fine without pure sine wave.

Reflector should be a rhodium electroformed reflector from Optiforms or Phoenix Electroforms (phoenix is cheaper)
For best light efficiency, the reflector should capture 55 degrees towards one end of the bulb and 45 degrees towards other end of the bulb (where the metal shield is)
The Maxabeam is a 5" reflector, but bigger is better, I personally would go with a 6-12" one.

A front lens should be used for protecting the reflector from the elements as well as blocking high intensity UV light to prevent eye damage.
Borosilicate is a good option that is resistant to high heat and block all UV.

The ballast and inverter will get hot, so a fan is required for good cooling inside the flashlight enclosure, however high airflow directly on the lamp isn't great so try to avoid that.


Hopefully this helps anyone trying to build a super long range handheld searchlight


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## The_Driver (May 28, 2017)

Have you seen this? It's a list of known luminance values of many different light sources (unfortunately for some HID bulbs only the average Ø of the entire arc is known).

The HBO 103 W/2 actually has an average luminance of 1700cd/mm^2. So the maximum luminance is actually even higher. They achieved this by making the arc really short (0,25mm). Unfortunately it only produces 3000 lumens. It's much more efficient than Xenon short-arcs, but still not very efficient.


I would consider using UHP projector bulbs. They are more efficient and are much smaller. The Osram P-VIP 250W has a supposed luminance of 2000cd/mm^2 and produces around 20.000 lumens. Also, because of the higher pressure, the light spectrum is more even. 

Of course the projector bulbs require more work and it's more dangerous (one has to remove the bulb from the glass reflector and cement it into a new custom mount).

*EDIT:*

I just found an interesting post from Ra:



Ra said:


> For those who want to know:





Ra said:


> At first even I underestimated the dangers involved with a project like this:
> 
> One day, standing in the bathroom, I noticed a severe sunburned area on my forehead, at first not knowing where that came from...I suddenly remembered testing the Mercury arc lamp a few days earlier, protecting my eyes with a type 13 welding-filter. Conclusion: The rest of my face unprotected, in about 45 seconds (!!!) I 'ultraviolated' my forehead, causing those sunburn-marks!
> 
> ...


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## Enderman (May 28, 2017)

Do you have a source for that 2000cd/mm^2?
All I've found on the internet indicates that UHP lamps have approx 1mm gap or more, and less intensity than a HBO103.
I would be glad to be proven wrong 

According to the spec sheet the HBO103 is 1500cd/mm^2 initial http://downloadable.topbulb.com/media//downloadable/Sylvania-69182.pdf
But it says that it takes approx 5 mins to warm up so in that case it will probably be 2000cd/mm^2 or even more.

And yeah I'm aware of the dangers of mercury lamps, but a borofloat lens blocks almost 100% of all UV. Also ozone isn't that dangerous.


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## Enderman (May 28, 2017)

Ok found some more info, looks like this is where you got the 2000cd/mm^2 info from:
http://www.taschenlampen-forum.de/threads/leuchtdichten.23324/
German forum again.

The highest is some prototype UHP bulb with a 0.3mm arc gap, unfortunately I could not find any of these on the internet 
If anyone knows where to find one of these plz let me know.

Second highest is a 2000W XBO which is too much wattage to run in a flashlight.

Third is the XBO 500W/RC OFR which has a TON of intensity compared to the other XBO lamps.
Datasheet: http://www.prisma-scene.com/Ampoules/Osram/XENON-SHORT-ARC.pdf
With my battery system, I would be able to run this for about <30 mins.

Fourth is the 250W UHP lamp, but it says "Source?" beside it so idk how accurate that number is.
I found this datasheet which doesn't show the intensity, but you can see there is a 330W lamp with a 1mm arc gap, I would assume it has more intensity than the 250W 1mm gap one.
https://assets.osram-americas.com/assets/Documents/1R3S001GB.6d4bf38a-48d9-4e40-b910-87712d06d229.pdf


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## The_Driver (May 29, 2017)

Unfortunately the Osram XBO 500W/RC OFR is not produced anymore (get_lit wanted to use it for his super spotlight). You might find some remaining stock at some film equipment shop. 500W is a lot of power though for a compact portable light. It would require a very large battery and still have a short runtime. 

Please take a look at this: http://jahonen.kapsi.fi/Electronics/Stuff/UHP_Lamp.pdf
It is the most comprehensive, known (to us) information source on UHP bulbs. 

See page 10 for more details on luminance. On the right side there is a graph showing different values for different electrode gap lengths. There are multiple data points for the 1mm gap length. sma guessed that the stronger 250W bulbs are the higher 2000 cd/mm^2 data point.
A significant benefit of the UHP lamps is that they often have very compact ballasts because the projector manufacturers want to make projectors as small as possible. One problem though is that the ballasts often require a very high input voltage (300V DC).
See smas light here for some details (he "only" used a 120W bulb).
PolarLi built a much more powerful light with a 350W bulb.

*EDIT:*
I have the "proof" for you .
I calculated the luminance of PolarLis light. 
For this I used the following data:

Reflector size:
large opening diameter: 200mm (area: 31416mm^2)
small opening diameter: ~40mm (area: 1257mm^2)
useable area: 30159mm^2

Reflector reflectance: 90% (AQ)

lens transmission: 92% (uncoated borosilicate glass)

luminous intensity: 55.3Mcd

luminous intensity[cd] = reflector_area[mm^2] * luminance [cd/mm^2] * lens_transmission [%] * reflector_coating_reflectivity [%]

=> luminance [cd/mm^2] = luminous intensity[cd] / ( reflector_area[mm^2] * lens_transmission [%] * reflector_coating_reflectivity [%] )

luminance = 2215 cd/mm^2

Of course this only shows what a 350W bulb can do. A 250W might be worse, but I don't think by a lot. I think the power density is the most important think and a 250W 1.0 bulb has double the p. density of 120W one.


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## Enderman (May 29, 2017)

Thanks for the info 
It does seem that UHP lamps are a better choice, not only can they be operated in any position (HBO can only be vertical to horizontal) but they are also more efficient with higher lumen output, although at the expense of a beam with more divergence.

-------------------------------------------------
If anyone is interested in the 500W RC bulb, this guy on this forum might still have his for sale (very cheap for $120) although he posted almost 10 years ago so who knows if he still has it...
http://4hv.org/e107_plugins/forum/forum_viewtopic.php?75287.post
There are images of it too, it's smaller than I expected.
Also here is a french store (which looks pretty legit), they have some in stock: http://www.eurosep.com/article.aspx?ref=WEM1MDBSQ09T
And a russian one: http://electropara.ru/catalog/lampy...sram-xbo/9102/?utm_source=blizkoru_id12561227
This lamp is probably better for a plug-in setup than portable setup.
-------------------------------------------------

Do you know if the P-VIP lamps are higher intensity than the HRI lamps used in moving heads like this one?
http://www.claypaky.it/en/products/sharpy#details
It does like 25Mcd with a 0 degree beam, using a small lamp that looks just like the P-VIP ones.
I tried figuring out what kind of optics system it uses, but there isn't any info on what kind of lenses they are.
It's some custom 3 lens system that collimates the light very well from the elliptical reflector of the lamp.


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## The_Driver (May 29, 2017)

I think the Osram P-VIP (and Philips UHP) lamps are either the same or better than the HRI Sirius (and Philips MSR Platinum) lamps. These other ones are newer technology, but I did not find a single technical data point which suggests that they are better. They seem to be based on the UHP technology and have have very similar dimensions and wattages though.

The UHP lamps are proven technology and are easy to get for a low price (used projectors on eBay), but somewhat finicky to get up and running. I currently don't see the benefit of these new bulbs.

Here is a thread on them: http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb...-Sirius-HRI-or-MSD-platinum-lamps-(short-arc)

The moving head you linked to does indeed seem to have a very high candela rating. If you compare it with others you will probably also notice that it has a lens with an unusually large diameter. That would explain the high value, if competing models have maybe a third of a fourth of the candela.

Edit:
With an approximated lens diameter of 15cm and their candela rating I get a luminance value of around 1400cd/mm^2 with just the losses of the main lens. Because of all the additional losses in the optical system (such lights are rather inefficient) it is probably closer to 2000. This would mean that these new lamps have basically the same performance as the UHP lamps.


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## Enderman (May 29, 2017)

Maybe one day I can get my hands on a Sharpy and take it apart to see what lenses it uses.

It sucks that osram doesn't list the arc length or lumens or cd on any of their datasheets :C

This site lists all the HRI lamps and their lumens, although it only gives the arc length for the first two.
http://www.mgc-lighting.com/product.../platinum-sirius/osram-sirius-hri-280-w-lamp/
http://www.mgc-lighting.com/product.../platinum-sirius/osram-sirius-hri-330-w-lamp/
http://www.mgc-lighting.com/product...-osram-sirius/osram-sirius-hri-330-w-xl-lamp/
http://www.mgc-lighting.com/product...-osram-sirius/osram-sirius-hri-330-w-x8-lamp/
The X8 one draws less current, outputs more lumens, and has higher CRI.


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## PolarLi (Jun 1, 2017)

P-VIP, UHP, HRI sirius and MSR Platinum are all built on the same technology, UHP - Ultra High Performance, AC Mercury arc. But the moving head lamps, MSR and HRI, may be built a little more robust to handle more heat. Perhaps slightly thicker electrodes and longer molybdenum foil, but nothing significant as far as I know.


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## Enderman (Jun 1, 2017)

PolarLi said:


> P-VIP, UHP, HRI sirius and MSR Platinum are all built on the same technology, UHP - Ultra High Performance, AC Mercury arc. But the moving head lamps, MSR and HRI, may be built a little more robust to handle more heat. Perhaps slightly thicker electrodes and longer molybdenum foil, but nothing significant as far as I know.


Yeah, you're right they're all very similar.
The differences are mainly the amount of lumens and the arc gap.

Maybe in a year or two we will see those experimental 0.3mm arc gap bulbs available?  One can hope.


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## A_L_R_O_M (Jun 1, 2017)

There is a chance to get 0.3 mm arc burners if we create group buy!
As far as i know original burners are made in Japan (phoenix wick burner)
I will try to contact them soon.


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## The_Driver (Jun 7, 2017)

*Re: What short arc for maxabeam like searchlight*



Immectpece said:


> I am going to jump in here, the kit looks GREAT I know the quality of parts as I used MC heavy duty parts to rebuild a W56. I know your in R&D mode for the W transmissions. I am currently in NEED of a new shifter seat and socket for my W55 trans 93 2wd, as I am having to lift the shifter up to find gears but, I would prefer to grab the short shifter kit any idea on a time line for my trans? Thanks



Wrong thread? lol


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## The_Driver (Jun 7, 2017)

*Re: What short arc for maxabeam like searchlight*



Enderman said:


> Yeah, you're right they're all very similar.
> The differences are mainly the amount of lumens and the arc gap.
> 
> Maybe in a year or two we will see those experimental 0.3mm arc gap bulbs available?  One can hope.





A_L_R_O_M said:


> There is a chance to get 0.3 mm arc burners if we create group buy!
> As far as i know original burners are made in Japan (phoenix wick burner)
> I will try to contact them soon.



I think this is very unlikely. 
This is an experimental bulb mentioned in a scientific document from 2005. They have not been introduced for 12 years... Projector manufacturers are now starting to move towards lasers. 

The problem with the shorter arc gaps is that the bulb manufactuers are reaching physical boundaries. A shorter arc means that the temperature is higher. Both of the electrodes and also of the quartz envelope. Maybe there are also problems with the gas mixture and/or the pressure.

*EDIT:*
I just found a more detailed version of the graph here.


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## A_L_R_O_M (Jun 8, 2017)

*Re: What short arc for maxabeam like searchlight*

They need huge quantity, and i still can't contact original phoenix wick burners company.
Yeah, thanks for the document, i dig deep into uhp technology, as i'm doing my own searchlights with that kind of bulb.
I ihink , no way we could get 0.3 mm or even 0.4 mm burners.
But in a cost of dramatically lower life, i think we can get 0.5 - 0.6 mm burners.
Let's say 200W 0.5 mm with a thicker electrodes, and 300-500 hours.
But the problem is to find a company that will do that easily, with an acceptable quality, with a quantity like 25-50 pieces.


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## Enderman (Oct 16, 2017)

*Re: What short arc for maxabeam like searchlight*

Hey guys, could you give me your opinion on this?

http://www.nasasearchlights.com/nasasearchlights.com/HD-1_SEARCHLIGHT.html
3.3 billion candlepower from a 20" diameter reflector...
According to my calculations that is *19 THOUSAND cd/mm^2* from the lamp, which they say is an Ushio EmArc of unkown model.
https://www.ushio.com/technology/emarc/
AFAIK the highest intensity from a commercially available short arc lamp is ~3000 from the Osram XBO2001W

Is that even possible??? Or is this company just making up BS numbers?
@PolarLi please give your input if you see this


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## PolarLi (Oct 17, 2017)

*Re: What short arc for maxabeam like searchlight*

Yeah, it is (complete) BS. They are running the same 850W EmArc lamp that I run in the 14" RH reflector, making 62 Mcd. That give me numbers around 1200 cd/mm2.


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## Enderman (Oct 17, 2017)

*Re: What short arc for maxabeam like searchlight*

Ok good to know, thanks!


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## The_Driver (Oct 18, 2017)

*Re: What short arc for maxabeam like searchlight*

The highest possible luminance is around 6000cd/mm^2 (actually much higher than the sun (1600cd/mm^2)!). This was achieved with high-wattage(>=5kW) Xenon short-arcs and with an experimental UHP bulb with a 0.3mm arc gap (only in the lab). Unfortunately both light sources can not be used in a portable light.


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