# Color rendition beamshots: incan, GD, Rebel, Nichia 083, Seoul high CRI, and Cree 5A



## mudman cj (Nov 3, 2008)

Hi folks,
I just finished my latest mod, one of the new high CRI Seoul emitters (4000K CCT) in a KL1 head, and I decided to post beamshots of different types of LEDs and an incandescent light source illuminating objects of various colors. I almost have what I would consider a good cross section of LEDs to choose from: I just wish I had a light that uses one of the newer neutral to warm Crees such as a 5A tint bin. Anyway, on to the beamshots.

The camera was set to sunlight color balance and the light sources were placed 8 feet from the target (with the exception of one of the shots using the Nichia 083)

First up is an incandescent light using a 3.7V lamp assembly that is very white for an incandescent. It is a Wolf Eyes Sniper putting out about 100 bulb lumens.









The second pic used the high CRI Seoul LED (4000K CCT) in the KL1 head. 





Next up is a high CRI Nichia 083 as used in McGizmo's Sundrop. This is more of a flood light, so the scene is not lit as intensely as in the other cases.






This pic also used the Nichia 083, but this time the light source was only about 4 feet from the wall in order to more brightly illuminate the objects for a better idea of how it renders color (I hope).





This pic used the Osram Golden Dragon in my Lunasol 20.





And last is a Rebel 100 in my Arcmania Extreme III:





Note: pics 2 and 3 have been switched since the original posting to allow better comparison between the incan and high CRI Seoul light sources by request.

Overall, these beamshots are pretty representative of the way these light sources render colorful scenes. The Nichia 083 seems dim in these shots, but in reality provides plenty of light that is very easy on the eyes. Nevertheless, it is best suited for illuminating nearby objects. But, having compared all of these light sources in person, I understand why Don chose the Nichia 083 to use in his high CRI light, the Sundrop. It really is spectacular IMO, but Don's opinion probably carries a lot more weight than mine.  

What these pictures do not show well is the way greens are rendered by these lights, and maybe I will have to take more beamshots sometime to show that. Also, these pictures do not give any indication of the ease with which my eyes can judge depth using these light sources. And even if I took pics of trees and such that show these differences in person, I doubt they would be present in photographs. There are qualities of the high CRI LEDs that are difficult to describe, and to complicate matters more, different people are effected to different degrees by the differences between these light sources. I find that I greatly prefer high CRI when I can get it without sacrificing form or function. 

There are finally LEDs that can give some incandescent lights a run for their money, even outdoors. I was after an LED version of an E2E, with similar throw, good color rendition, longer runtime, and the reliability of a well built LED light. I think I have it with my KL1 mod. This light runs for about 3 hours (have not actually tested - this assumes 85% converter efficiency) instead of 75 minutes for the incandescent E2E and it gives me the option of using 17670 rechargeable cells for about 2.5 hours at slightly lower output (560mA vs. 750mA on primaries). Still, I wonder how a Cree Q2 5A in a KX2 or maybe an E2L or E2DL would compare? :devil:


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## Sgt. LED (Nov 3, 2008)

*Re: Color rendition beamshots: incan, GD, Rebel, Nichia 083 (high CRI), Seoul high CR*

_The third pic used the high CRI Seoul LED (4000K CCT) in the KL1 head._ 

That's the big winner here for my eyes!

I would love to see a head to head of that light and one of Gene's new Q2 Malkoff's!

Thanks for posting the color test for all of us.


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## Sgt. LED (Nov 3, 2008)

*Re: Color rendition beamshots: incan, GD, Rebel, Nichia 083 (high CRI), Seoul high CR*

Could you swap the places of you pics so that the incan shot and the Seoul high CRI are one behind another?

I't help me compare the best 2 for color viewing.

THANKS A BUNCH.


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## WadeF (Nov 3, 2008)

*Re: Color rendition beamshots: incan, GD, Rebel, Nichia 083 (high CRI), Seoul high CR*

You could try taking the shots with the white balance set to daylight, but exposure set to auto so the exposures are more consistent. That way we could focus on how the colors are being rendered.


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## mudman cj (Nov 3, 2008)

*Re: Color rendition beamshots: incan, GD, Rebel, Nichia 083 (high CRI), Seoul high CR*

I hear ya! A Q2 would put out more light, but I will have to see for myself if the extra light makes up for the drop in color rendition. I just had to order a Dereelight Q3 5A dropin that runs at 1 Amp so I can find out. I would prefer a light with the E2E form factor, but I can use this drop in with my Sniper and get more use out of it. When I get it I will add beamshots of it for comparison.


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## mudman cj (Nov 3, 2008)

*Re: Color rendition beamshots: incan, GD, Rebel, Nichia 083 (high CRI), Seoul high CR*



WadeF said:


> You could try taking the shots with the white balance set to daylight, but exposure set to auto so the exposures are more consistent. That way we could focus on how the colors are being rendered.



Yeah, that's what I did, at least to the extent that my camera would allow. Sorry they didn't come out more to your liking.

Edit: I added another pic of the Nichia 083 with the light source placed closer to the scene. This resulted in an exposure more consistent with the other pics. I hope it serves the intended purpose.


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## saabluster (Nov 4, 2008)

*Re: Color rendition beamshots: incan, GD, Rebel, Nichia 083 (high CRI), Seoul high CR*

This is some excellent work mudman. Thanks! It should probably be in the LED section though.


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## KrisP (Nov 4, 2008)

*Re: Color rendition beamshots: incan, GD, Rebel, Nichia 083 (high CRI), Seoul high CR*

May I ask what part number the Seoul LED is and where you sourced it?


Thanks


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## TexLite (Nov 4, 2008)

*Re: Color rendition beamshots: incan, GD, Rebel, Nichia 083 (high CRI), Seoul high CR*

Great Job!

I know it takes some work to get good shots like these.

Thanks for the comparison,very useful.

About the 5A Cree,I think you'll be pleased.Compared directly against one of the high CRI emitters,you'll see a big difference,and you'll likely notice a little tint variation in everyday(or night)use,but its not like the cool whites,after just a few minutes of use you adapt very well and its not distracting or very noticeable at all.With the higher flux output/efficiency,they're better suited for everyday use.

-Michael


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## mudman cj (Nov 4, 2008)

*Re: Color rendition beamshots: incan, GD, Rebel, Nichia 083 (high CRI), Seoul high CR*



saabluster said:


> This is some excellent work mudman. Thanks! It should probably be in the LED section though.



Oh, I thought I did put it in the LED section, but now I see that I put it in LED flashlights. I will ask a moderator to move it.


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## DM51 (Nov 4, 2008)

*Re: Color rendition beamshots: incan, GD, Rebel, Nichia 083 (high CRI), Seoul high CR*

Moving it for you...


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## mudman cj (Nov 4, 2008)

*Re: Color rendition beamshots: incan, GD, Rebel, Nichia 083 (high CRI), Seoul high CR*



KrisP said:


> May I ask what part number the Seoul LED is and where you sourced it?
> 
> 
> Thanks



I got it here. There is also another part number for one mounted to a star. You should be able to find it easily with this as a starting point.


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## Ayeaux (Nov 4, 2008)

*Re: Color rendition beamshots: incan, GD, Rebel, Nichia 083 (high CRI), Seoul high CR*

Thank you for the pics. I'm considering getting a Q3 5A from dereelight myself and am anxiously awaiting your pictures to compare it to a rebel.


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## divine (Nov 6, 2008)

*Re: Color rendition beamshots: incan, GD, Rebel, Nichia 083 (high CRI), Seoul high CR*

I read this today, that fluorescent lights have a CRI of 82, and Metal halide (HID), if you're lucky will do 70 CRI.

I don't know about everyone, but I am usually seeing indoors with fluorescent lights, so some of my flashlights give a higher CRI than I am normally used to seeing.

The CRI of a Q5 WC Cree is around 70, and the CRI of a Golden Dragon is around 80.


If you ask me, red seems about twice as apparent when being lit by a golden dragon as it is being lit by a WC Cree or a SWO Seoul.

Now, this is where it gets confusing. It seems like how the light hits what you're viewing affects its ability for you to see what you're looking at. If you shine the hot spot directly on something red, they mostly seem the same. If you catch something red on the very edge of your spill, the CRI seems critical. If you are seeing from reflected light, there seems to be other things that affect what you see. I'm not too sure about the reflected light yet. I need to test some things.


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## Cemoi (Nov 6, 2008)

*Re: Color rendition beamshots: incan, GD, Rebel, Nichia 083 (high CRI), Seoul high CR*



KrisP said:


> May I ask what part number the Seoul LED is and where you sourced it?



Mudman: same question about the Cree 5A.

Thanks


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## KrisP (Nov 6, 2008)

*Re: Color rendition beamshots: incan, GD, Rebel, Nichia 083 (high CRI), Seoul high CR*



Cemoi said:


> Mudman: same question about the Cree 5A.
> 
> Thanks


I'm not sure where mudman is getting his from but you can get them from this module.


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## KrisP (Nov 6, 2008)

*Re: Color rendition beamshots: incan, GD, Rebel, Nichia 083 (high CRI), Seoul high CR*



divine said:


> I read this today, that fluorescent lights have a CRI of 82, and Metal halide (HID), if you're lucky will do 70 CRI.


Flouro lights can have a CRI of 70 up to 95 depending on the type. Standard flouro is 70, triphosphor around 84, and full spectrum around 95 according to this document on page 4.


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## saabluster (Nov 6, 2008)

*Re: Color rendition beamshots: incan, GD, Rebel, Nichia 083 (high CRI), Seoul high CR*



KrisP said:


> I'm not sure where mudman is getting his from but you can get them from this module.


Kind of a moot point to link to that as they have been out of stock for some time now and do not appear to be getting any more. Disregard the note that says they will be back in stock in whatever amount of days. It is not true. (edit. It took them several months but I noticed they are back in stock)


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## mudman cj (Nov 6, 2008)

*Re: Color rendition beamshots: incan, GD, Rebel, Nichia 083 (high CRI), Seoul high CR*



Cemoi said:


> Mudman: same question about the Cree 5A.
> 
> Thanks


As I said above, I just ordered a Dereelight drop in that supposedly contains a Cree 5A with Q3 brightness bin. I say supposedly because until I saw that the brightest bin I had heard of in 5A was a Q2. But either way I think I will use it.


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## gillestugan (Nov 6, 2008)

*Re: Color rendition beamshots: incan, GD, Rebel, Nichia 083 (high CRI), Seoul high CR*

Great beamshot setup mudman! 
Who is that little red guy? (haven't had him here in Sweden)
He seems to be very happy to be photographed and has been modelling for www.steves-digicams.com for years, appearing in thousands of ISO level shots. 
.


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## mudman cj (Nov 6, 2008)

*Re: Color rendition beamshots: incan, GD, Rebel, Nichia 083 (high CRI), Seoul high CR*

Huh, I had no idea that someone else was using an M&M character for color rendition. :shrug: They are little chocolate candies with a thin candy shell that provides a little texture, color, and prevents the chocolate from melting by the heat of your hand. It is a widely recognized product here to say the least. I chose it because I was looking for reds and greens. But I have noticed that LEDs can sometimes render certain shades of green and blue poorly while rendering others well due to 'gaps' in the spectral output. I think when I get the 5A Cree in hand I may modify the scene to include more types of green and also browns to begin to convey the differences between these light sources with respect to rendering objects typically found in nature.


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## Cemoi (Nov 7, 2008)

*Re: Color rendition beamshots: incan, GD, Rebel, Nichia 083 (high CRI), Seoul high CR*



mudman cj said:


> I just ordered a Dereelight drop in that supposedly contains a Cree 5A


Thanks and sorry for asking, but I didn't know what a "Dereelight drop in" meant in your former post. So I searched CPF, and I suppose you are talking about the last item on this page?
But $35 is too much since I only need the PCB-mounted emitter.


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## mudman cj (Nov 7, 2008)

*Re: Color rendition beamshots: incan, GD, Rebel, Nichia 083 (high CRI), Seoul high CR*

Yes, that is what I ordered. I don't know of another source for them right now. There were 20 of them that were sold in the marketplace, but they are all gone. You could keep your eye open or try to PM some of those individuals that bought more than 1 and may not have used them all yet. You could also PM the person that ordered the lot of them for more info.


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## tsl (Nov 12, 2008)

*Re: Color rendition beamshots: incan, GD, Rebel, Nichia 083 (high CRI), Seoul high CR*



mudman cj said:


> As I said above, I just ordered a Dereelight drop in that supposedly contains a Cree 5A with Q3 brightness bin. I say supposedly because until I saw that the brightest bin I had heard of in 5A was a Q2. But either way I think I will use it.


 
Have you received the Q3 5A yet? I'm interested to see how it compares to the others.


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## mudman cj (Nov 13, 2008)

*Re: Color rendition beamshots: incan, GD, Rebel, Nichia 083 (high CRI), Seoul high CR*

No, but it shouldn't be long now. In addition to the Dereelight drop in I also ordered a Fenix TK20, and unlike the Dereelight I know the TK20 has already shipped.


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## mudman cj (Nov 15, 2008)

OK, I got in my Fenix TK20 with Cree 5A emitter today, and took another set of beamshots. This time I added a few more objects and tried harder to get even exposures. If anyone would like to make these into a slideshow, be my guest.

As before, I will start with incan:






And now the Seoul high CRI (4000K CCT):





This one is the Cree 5A (and since the TK20 has a tighter beam pattern, I had to place the light further away to illuminate more of the scene):





And now for the Nichia 083 high CRI LED (this one was closer because the light is more floody):





On to the Rebel 100 (again closer because of the more floody beam):





And finally the Golden Dragon in my LS20:





After playing with the TK20 for a bit I noticed some differences in color rendering compared to reference light sources, but as others have said, the 5A bin Crees are quite a nice compromise in brightness for color rendition compared to other LEDs. IMO this makes it a great choice for outdoors lights. I find that indoors it has a somewhat yellow/green characteristic that can be seen a little on a white wall but more so on skin. The 5A also lacks a bit in red and orange which makes orange objects appear more yellow. By comparison, the Seoul has bountiful orange and red which brings out the pinks in skin much more than the TK20, but my particular Seoul has a yellow/rose tint to it. The Seoul also tends to yellow things up a bit, while the Nichia 083 gives a higher color temperature version of high CRI that is quite tint neutral and just great at close range.


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## jirik_cz (Nov 15, 2008)

Nice beamshots :twothumbs


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## LukeA (Nov 15, 2008)

These are nice beamshots. They let me know that anyone who claims that LEDs can't render colors either A) has never seen a WW LED or B) is seeing what they want to see.


I hope you don't mind that I made an animated gif with the Cree 5A and incan shot.


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## mudman cj (Nov 16, 2008)

Not at all, though it would be even better if I could have managed to support the TK20 on the other side of the room for that shot since the change in camera angle is apparent: I moved the camera location to avoid hard shadows. 

I would like to see the incan in an animated gif with the Seoul. Those would be the closest comparison shots IMO, and the Seoul was closest to incan in real life too (not that incan should be considered ideal mind you). This gif would help prove the point that LEDs have finally learned a new trick.


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## LukeA (Nov 16, 2008)

High CRI SSC and incan:






I wish GIF was updated to support more colors. It isn't 1987 anymore.


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## Outdoors Fanatic (Dec 5, 2008)

Great thread! 

Big thanks to the OP.


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## OrlandoLights (Dec 18, 2008)

Thanks for doing this thread, Mudman, it's just what I needed in finding a light that rendered colors realistically. Or as I think of it in my non-scientific way, a beautiful beam.


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## glyphin (Jan 1, 2009)

Excellent comparison of CRI in the second series, Mudman - thanks! The Nichia is clearly the best at rendering color. I wonder about an array of these LEDs...


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## kongfuchicken (Jan 1, 2009)

Thanks a ton for doing this mudman. It's still pretty new to me how well these high cri leds seem to work. I'm definitively going to look into this.

The only thing I noticed in your comparison is that the Black&Decker toolbox might possibly be made of fluorescent plastic material which means it'll probably shine bright orange even if it were illuminated by a monocromatic blue light... Not that it seems to throw off the effectiveness of the test at all.


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## mudman cj (Jan 2, 2009)

kongfuchicken said:


> Thanks a ton for doing this mudman. It's still pretty new to me how well these high cri leds seem to work. I'm definitively going to look into this.
> 
> The only thing I noticed in your comparison is that the Black&Decker toolbox might possibly be made of fluorescent plastic material which means it'll probably shine bright orange even if it were illuminated by a monocromatic blue light... Not that it seems to throw off the effectiveness of the test at all.



Well, I don't have a monochromatic blue light, and I don't want to enter into a debate on the subject, so I guess I will just have to take some more beamshots. 

This time I tried to focus on different orange objects, and I realized that there would be some added benefit to using objects that are somewhat standard; so that anyone could obtain a similar object for reference. This is why I used some more fruit in this one. I wish I had an eggplant, but just grabbed a few purple items to show how purple can look quite different. The cardboard in the background is another example of how browns look different as well. Oh, and this time I added my L4's Lux V to the mix.

Incan:





Seoul high CRI 4000K CCT:





Cree 5A:





Nichia 083 high CRI:





Rebel 100:





Golden Dragon:





Lux V:


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## kongfuchicken (Jan 2, 2009)

Mudman, I honestly have no clue whether the box is fluorescent or not but my laundry detergent bottle, the tag on my bag, the handles of my scissors and the traffic cone in the trunk of the car are and I never noticed until i played with a blue laser with the lights off =P

I certainly didn't intend my observation to be of any criticism to your test (which is eye-opening to me) and now I feel guilty for troubling you into reloading the whole thing... sorry and thanks for doing this! 


In any case, the washed out colors effect is more than obvious to me in every shot past the rebel100 one. I'm stunned that the effect can be recreated on a picture displayed on an lcd screen when I thought it were something with my eyes being below average or something the likes...

Well I'm certainly impressed and I look forward to the many weeks of tinkering and rebuilding all my lights with these new leds.


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## kaichu dento (Jan 2, 2009)

Nice color shots Mudman! Every time I see new comparison shots showing the Q3 5A up against anything else the more I want them in every light I own! Can someone put one in my Titan for me?!? If so, please PM me! :wave:


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## mudman cj (Jan 3, 2009)

kongfuchicken - I didn't take your comments as a criticism, so please don't feel guilty. I thought that you made a valid point that I simply was not equipped to address, so rather than wonder if the effect you mentioned was influencing the results or not, I thought I would take it as an opportunity to further demonstrate differences between these light sources.

I wish there were a good way to demonstrate the relative ease with which these different light sources allow one to hike through the woods for example. There are definite differences in depth perception and situational awareness for lack of a better term between these light sources IMO. And these differences are really what matters most to me, not accurate color rendition.

As others have said, sometimes more light output can make up for these other differences, so you might be disappointed by changing the LED in certain lights to one of these alternatives with lower output. Just something to keep in mind. I would say that the Cree 5A is largely a no-brainer because the output is only 15% less than cool white LEDs, but when you consider using the Seoul high CRI LED keep in mind that the output is on par with a Lux III. And the Nichia 083 has a similar Lux III effieciency but with lower power handling its more like a Lux I, and you can't expect the Nichia 083 to give hardly any throw. I use one with a Q3 reflector for a nice beam that throws to maybe 50 feet and thats it. And when I use throw in this context I mean I can still identify objects at that distance: this does not necessarily conform to any accepted definition of throw.


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## Opto-King (Jan 5, 2009)

*Different Kelvin?*

For me it seams that all LEDs used in the "CRI experiment" does NOT have the same CCT (Kelvin & X,Y) is this correct?

Since this will also affect the resoult a lot as well as the amount of lumen pushed out of the LEDs to the objects.


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## mudman cj (Jan 5, 2009)

I know where you are going with that. CRI is only defined for light sources having the same CCT. The light sources used in these beamshots did not all have the same CCT. But I am not trying to measure CRI here - this was not intended to be nor labeled as a "CRI experiment". And yes, the light intensity is also important when comparing things of this nature.

I have made an attempt to adjust the position of the lights to achieve equal intensities. Did I succeed? No. I realize that the intensities as well as beam shapes are not equal.

What I have tried to show is roughly how these different light sources render objects. And by that I mean how they appear to my eyes. The beamshots do not perfectly show what I see when I use these lights, but they give a pretty good idea of the difference. That is all. I never claimed that these beamshots show or prove that some light sources have a higher CRI. I could care less about the CRI value in some sense, because CRI is defined off of a black body curve, and black body radiation is not the ultimate standard IMO. I am after a light source that renders objects similarly to sunlight. And the spectrum of light reaching our eyes from the sun is not black body radiation.


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## Tekno_Cowboy (Feb 9, 2009)

Great thread!

By the way, would the land 'Where corn and pigs are grown unimpeded by trees' happen to be Minnesota? I noticed the Wild Thing M&M souvenir, and thought it might be from the Valleyfair in Shokopee


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## saabluster (Feb 10, 2009)

Tekno_Cowboy said:


> Great thread!
> 
> By the way, would the land 'Where corn and pigs are grown unimpeded by trees' happen to be Minnesota? I noticed the Wild Thing M&M souvenir, and thought it might be from the Valleyfair in Shokopee


I would have thought Indiana.


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## LukeA (Feb 10, 2009)

I think it would be interesting to take a series of comparative shots with different light sources but keep the source of each shot secret and see what everyone thinks is best, then reveal the sources. The secrecy would serve to remove confirmation bias.


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## mudman cj (Feb 10, 2009)

Sorry, neither of you have the right answer to where I live. Hint: this state is consistently at the top of the list for both corn and hog production and is often #1 in either or both categories.


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## Outdoors Fanatic (Feb 10, 2009)

mudman cj said:


> Sorry, neither of you have the right answer to where I live. Hint: this state is consistently at the top of the list for both corn and hog production and is often #1 in either or both categories.


I bet it's either Nebraska or Iowa.


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## saabluster (Feb 10, 2009)

LukeA said:


> I think it would be interesting to take a series of comparative shots with different light sources but keep the source of each shot secret and see what everyone thinks is best, then reveal the sources. The secrecy would serve to remove confirmation bias.


When I get some time I am going to do something like this as I have a ton of different LEDs and tints. Cree WC, WG, WH, 3A, 4A, 5A, 6C, 7A, 8AorB, SSC P4 High CRI and a few other SSC tints that I can't remember right now, Nichia 083, Luxeon Rebel, Golden Dragon, and a few other Luxeons and generic LEDs.


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## LukeA (Feb 10, 2009)

saabluster said:


> When I get some time I am going to do something like this as I have a ton of different LEDs and tints. Cree WC, WG, WH, 3A, 4A, 5A, 6C, 7A, 8AorB, SSC P4 High CRI and a few other SSC tints that I can't remember right now, Nichia 083, Luxeon Rebel, Golden Dragon, and a few other Luxeons and generic LEDs.



Any chance of also squeezing an incan in?


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## mudman cj (Feb 10, 2009)

Outdoors Fanatic said:


> I bet it's either Nebraska or Iowa.



And you would win with one of those answers. - it's Iowa.

saabluster - Someone could certainly do a better job than I have. It sounds like you have a very nice selection of LEDs to use. I hope you have a camera with more configuration options than mine. I am unable to create custom locked white balance settings for example and I also have little control over the exposure in order to get photos that illuminate the subject equally. I also wanted to include some outdoor beamshots, but they never turned out good enough to include. I really wanted to try to show the difference when illuminating things in nature, and I hoped to portray the differences in depth perception that exist in my personal experience, but that is probably too much to hope for. There is only so much you can get from an arrangement of colored pixels on a computer screen.


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## saabluster (Feb 10, 2009)

LukeA said:


> Any chance of also squeezing an incan in?


Absolutely. It really wouldn't be worth doing otherwise.



mudman cj said:


> I hope you have a camera with more configuration options than mine. I am unable to create custom locked white balance settings for example and I also have little control over the exposure in order to get photos that illuminate the subject equally. I also wanted to include some outdoor beamshots, but they never turned out good enough to include. I really wanted to try to show the difference when illuminating things in nature, and I hoped to portray the differences in depth perception that exist in my personal experience, but that is probably too much to hope for. There is only so much you can get from an arrangement of colored pixels on a computer screen.



I have a decent camera and can lock the white balance. I will make it a very thorough set of pictures with the white balance set multiple ways and in multiple settings.


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## mudman cj (Feb 10, 2009)

saabluster said:


> Absolutely. It really wouldn't be worth doing otherwise.
> 
> 
> 
> I have a decent camera and can lock the white balance. I will make it a very thorough set of pictures with the white balance set multiple ways and in multiple settings.



Then I look forward to having my thread bettered. :twothumbs


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## Norm (Feb 10, 2009)

When I bought my Jet III M with a Cree 5A it was the first LED light I was truly happy with, since putting a 5A in a Sgt. Burkett I think I have found my perfect EDC. I will be gett more 5As for other lights. 
Thanks for all the hard working setting up and taking all those pictures.
Norm


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## blasterman (Feb 10, 2009)

I have a unique case for high CRI values. I've been deploying my own LED fixtures in a very busy night-club - Not only for colored accent lighting, but increasingly for utility lighting around the bar so staff can see what they are doing while still keeping things aethestically dark.

One problem I recently found with neutral white Luxeons was that while their out-put intensity was fine, their rather low CRI made it difficult to tell draft beer brands apart in the serving window. The neutral white Luxeons have a big problem being able to tell warm colors apart, which you can see here. This caused confusion on busy nights and some rather, uh, unpleasant drama with my wait staff. Lite beers are an especially difficult problem because their subtle amber colors are so similiar, unlike lets say Guiness -vs- Blue Moon (yummy!).

I switched to warm-white Cree P4's, and while it didn't have the astronomical improvement such as using the uber_high CRI emitters here (they are simply too awkward to obtain to make it worth it for me*), it was enough to fix the problem over the Luxeons.

Now we need beer companies to sponsor high CRI LEDs, and life is good  

*Edit: I believe these are the Seoul high CRI chips on Mouser. They cross reference to having a CRI of 93 on the Zled site, and are available in both 4000k and 3000k temps. Good to know.
http://www.mouser.com/Search/Refine.aspx?N=2093270+4294762567+4294719703+4294719953+4294628959


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## LEDAdd1ct (Feb 6, 2010)

I just scrolled through this thread again to see if I thanked mudman, and seeing as I did not:

Thank you for an awesome, visually informative thread!


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## Opto-King (Feb 7, 2010)

I have seen that a Swedish company called Optoga has a wide range of LED modules called Optodrive that according to the company has CRI 95!
http://www.optodrive.se/pressrelease2.pab

Both Ledsmagazine and Ledinside has written about it, but does any one know if this is true? And if so, how come they have so good CRI/Ra values?


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## LEDAdd1ct (Feb 7, 2010)

"...the result gives a CRI 95 with flux levels that match the best “low” CRI products. The compact Optodrive modules open up completely new opportunities for exciting and functional design solutions with energy efficiency up to 80lm/W."

How does 80lm/W compare to current Cree stuff? How does it compare in efficiency to the high-CRI SSC P4?


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## saabluster (Feb 7, 2010)

Opto-King said:


> I have seen that a Swedish company called Optoga has a wide range of LED modules called Optodrive that according to the company has CRI 95!
> http://www.optodrive.se/pressrelease2.pab
> 
> Both Ledsmagazine and Ledinside has written about it, but does any one know if this is true? And if so, how come they have so good CRI/Ra values?


Well they say in the article how they get the high CRI.

" Recently the development of better phosphors has improved LED performance and in the latest tests, the result gives a CRI 95 with flux levels that match the best “low” CRI products."

As I have pointed out before that last bit showcases how companies like to lie just a little bit to make their product sound better or more novel than it really is. It's interesting that they don't date their "press releases".


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## taschenlampe (Feb 8, 2010)

saabluster said:


> ... " Recently the development of better phosphors has improved LED performance and in the latest tests, the result gives a CRI 95 with flux levels that match the best “low” CRI products." ...


 

I wonder where these "high flux + high CRI" SSC LED’s are?

Has anybody seen one up till now?


tl


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## Th232 (Feb 8, 2010)

Bit of info I got from an SSC sales rep here. Really suspect that the flux numbers will be the top bin though.


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## Opto-King (Feb 16, 2010)

saabluster said:


> Well they say in the article how they get the high CRI.
> 
> " Recently the development of better phosphors has improved LED performance and in the latest tests, the result gives a CRI 95 with flux levels that match the best “low” CRI products."
> 
> As I have pointed out before that last bit showcases how companies like to lie just a little bit to make their product sound better or more novel than it really is. It's interesting that they don't date their "press releases".


 
So, do you think that this mean that Optoga has upgraded the phosphor on their Optodrive LED modules? Or, does it mean that they have come over some special top bin selections from SSC?


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## saabluster (Feb 16, 2010)

Opto-King said:


> So, do you think that this mean that Optoga has upgraded the phosphor on their Optodrive LED modules? Or, does it mean that they have come over some special top bin selections from SSC?


I don't know. The "press release" is very unclear to me and I don't care to know more about them to be honest. Sorry. Try them out and report back for everyone's benefit.:shrug:


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## Magic Matt (Feb 16, 2010)

Sadly most browsers don't support Animated PNG which has 24 bit colour and 8 bit alpha channel. The technology went too far towards Flash and MPEG to ever come back.

From the images, I'm finding the Cree 5A a clear winner to me - I just like the lighting better than the others.


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## mudman cj (Feb 16, 2010)

I have gravitated to the Cree 5A and 5B because they provide good enough color rendering and depth perception for me without sacrificing too much output. They just occupy the 'sweet spot' IMHO. I sold off the Seoul 4000K light I had but still have the Nichia 083 mainly for reference. In use I just don't mind the difference between these spectra and that of the Cree 5A or 5B.

I will not purchase any more cool white LED lights unless of course I do so with the intent to swap out the emitter.


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## LEDAdd1ct (Sep 7, 2010)

mudman, do you have any beamshots of the latest Nichia high CRI emitter?


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## mudman cj (Sep 7, 2010)

I just finished putting one into the Q3 that previously hosted a Nichia 083. Let me see what I can do. Give me a few days...


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## LEDAdd1ct (Sep 7, 2010)




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## mudman cj (Oct 4, 2010)

Sorry for the wait and thanks for your patience. I just finished putting the Nichia 083 into another Q3 host and had the opportunity to compare the 083 running at 333 mA side by side with the 183 running at 800 mA. The difference is just not great enough to warrant the effort of taking another set of beam shots IMO. 

The tints are quite close to one another and they render colors equally well. The only difference is the increased brightness of the 183, but given the much greater drive current the difference is not impressive. Part of the reason for this is certainly due to the floody nature of the beam, which does not produce much of a hotspot. If there were more of a concentrated hotspot, then I would expect to notice a greater difference in throw especially.

Overall, I still like the high CRI LEDs, but the sheer output of a XR-E Q4 5B behind a Surefire X series optic for throw or a 5A/5B MC-E for flood is still the sweet spot for balancing output vs color rendition/depth perception/comfort IMHO.


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