# Incandescent: low lumens, long runtime ?



## FloggedSynapse (Oct 27, 2012)

Any available. I was thinking of 2-10 lumens, with a minimum runtime of 5-10 hours. Some sort of incan nightlight.

For example the A2's bulb is good for ~50 lumens/1 hour. How about an incan bulb (hot wire) with an output of 5 lumens for 10 hours. Possible?

Something about the quality of light from a hotwire.. it can't be reproduced using an LED technology. However the 'runtime' of most incandescents does not exceed 1 hour and is their biggest drawback.


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## PCC (Oct 27, 2012)

How about trying to fit the Minimag bi-pin bulb in a 2D Mag? It's specified at 15 lumens for five hours (if you can believe those specs) on two AAs so it should last about four times longer than that on two big D cells.


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## fivemega (Oct 27, 2012)

FloggedSynapse said:


> Any available. I was thinking of 2-10 lumens, with a minimum runtime of 5-10 hours. Some sort of incan nightlight..


*Depending on size of the flashlight, it is absolutely possible.
What maximum size or battery form factor do you prefer?*


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## rookiedaddy (Oct 27, 2012)

PCC said:


> How about trying to fit the Minimag bi-pin bulb in a 2D Mag? It's specified at 15 lumens for five hours (if you can believe those specs) on two AAs so it should last about four times longer than that on two big D cells.


don't know if the output is 14 lumens or not, I've tested the MiniMag 2AA (Xenon) does 5 hour+ on a pair of Alkaline... I was skeptical at first, so I tested it again and indeed, it does 5 hour+... 

*edit*: fwiw, I used Radio-Shack alkaline cells in both test...


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## Admiralgrey (Oct 28, 2012)

Rat Shack has .15 and .25A 6.3v screw base bulbs. I've been running these in my 2x li-ion Mags via a little screw base insert in the bulb holder. Works well for candle mode, or when long life and low light are needed. The .15A is probably around 20 lumens. They do whiten up nicely thanks to over-volting. 

Though I haven't tried them, rat shack has sub miniature 6v bulbs rated for 25ma. That would be over a hundred hours off two 18650's.


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## yellow (Oct 30, 2012)

FloggedSynapse said:


> Something about the quality of light from a hotwire.. it can't be reproduced using an LED technology. However the 'runtime' of most incandescents does not exceed 1 hour and is their biggest drawback.


I understand that thinking - for high power applications.

But even for the main bulb of the light You mention, it is already over. And much "worse" for low, low power light.
Simply compare a Solitaire with the white led of the A2, 
... and You can even get led rings with the tint YOU prefer ...


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## StorminMatt (Oct 30, 2012)

Well, according to Mag, the common 2D Mag produces 19 lumens and lasts 10 hours. So this would get you the runtime, albeit with more light than you want. You could drop your lumens significantly while also increasing runtime by running a 3 cell or 4 cell bulb into a 2D. However, the light output may or may not be too orange for your liking.


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## broadgage (Nov 6, 2012)

For a limited output, long running incan light you may need to search around for bulbs of lower power than the standard ones.
For a 2 cell maglite or similar, a 2.5 volt 0.3amp bulb will give very roughly 50 hours run time on 2 D cells.

5 volt, 0.09 amp bulbs exist, but unfortunatly have a non standard base for flashlights, they run for about 200 hours on 4 alkaline D cells.

For still longer run times, multiple cells or batteries in paralell can be used, I have an old modified handlamp that uses 6D cells in 2 strings of 3, and a 3.8 volt, 0.3 amp PR base bulb, that gives over 100 hours on alkalines and dozens of hours on zinc carbon cells.

The older types of low current bulbs are becoming scarce, with LEDs and higher power incans becoming the norm.


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## ampdude (Nov 7, 2012)

The higher the voltage, the more efficient the bulbs get as far as output. If you want a really decent output bulb with long runtime, try to locate a high voltage bulb with a really low current drain.

The Surefire M4's LOLA @ 250 lumens for one hour one 4 CR123A's is a really good example of this, since the M6's 250 lumens lamp assembly runs for one hour as well, but requires 6 batteries. But this is probably a lot higher power than you are looking for.

I'd say something in the 50 lumens range and 12 volt operating range would run a really, really long time. Maybe six hours or more on four CR123A's. Just as an example.


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## jrmcferren (Nov 13, 2012)

If you have a 2D cell light, look into the PR-4 lamp. These are typically specified for 2AA and 2C lights, pop this into a 2D light and you should increase your run time. A way to test this is to take a 2AA flashlight (cheap Wal-mart type) and a 2D flashlight (Cheap walmart type or flange base MagLite) and swap the bulbs out. You will likely be running a KPR-104 (krypton) from the 2AA light, but it gives you an idea of the life increase, if you don't want to play with that, RadioShack sells the PR-4 bulbs.

Here is some data:


Lamp
Cells
Fill
Current
PR-2
2D
Vacuum
500mA
PR-4
2AA
Vacuum
270mA
KPR-102
2D
Krypton
900mA
KPR-104
2AA
Krypton
480mA


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## Paolo B (Dec 28, 2012)

Hi everyone, Monocrom mentioned this site on Watchuseek a while back and so here I am now.

I'm also interested in a long runtime incan nightlight. I'm currently using a 2AA mini Mag with Energizer alkalines. I like this size of light and its candle mode. Runtime is long enough for me. I'd rather use rechargeable batteries though. Can I use Eneloops safely in this? Maglite says no but I figured I'd ask the experts.


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## Admiralgrey (Dec 28, 2012)

Eneloops will be fine a far as safety, and in my opinion may qualify as 'safer' because they won't leak! That's what I've got in my Mini 

It will not be as bright at first as with fresh alkaleaks, but over the course of your burn it may stay brighter due to sagging voltage of the alkalines.


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## Paolo B (Dec 28, 2012)

Awesome, thanks. I forgot to ask: will this result in a lower bulb lifespan?


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## yellow (Dec 28, 2012)

when it was actual, I have EXTENSIVELY used minimags - which pretty noone has, imho.
* with rechargeables, a typical runtime is about 5 hours,
* lifetime of a bulb is about 1.5 sets of batteries in general 
(and I have used up _quite many bulbs _to be absolutely sure about that ...)

imho it makes no sense at all, get f.e. a Fenix E01 instead,
or a Quark AA, or something comparable
... that output is led territorry


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## Paolo B (Dec 29, 2012)

I used my mini Mag with Sony rechargeables I found lying around the house. Like mentioned above, output seemed to be lower.

Hmm, if the bulbs only last that long on rechargeables I can see myself using up a lot of bulbs over time.

yellow, I've got three Fenix E01s and an LD20. LEDs have a way of keeping me from getting sleepy, so that's why I use an incan nightlight.


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## Admiralgrey (Dec 29, 2012)

I doubt bulb life is diminished by using rechargeables. Voltage will be less when fired up, meaning less stress on the filament.

Perhaps Yellow is referring to the original vacuum bulbs, as I imagine the new xenon filled ones would be good for more than 7.5hours. 

I agree with you on that Paolo B; a solitaire + eneloop is my chosen nightlight


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## SemiMan (Dec 29, 2012)

Paolo B said:


> I used my mini Mag with Sony rechargeables I found lying around the house. Like mentioned above, output seemed to be lower.
> 
> Hmm, if the bulbs only last that long on rechargeables I can see myself using up a lot of bulbs over time.
> 
> yellow, I've got three Fenix E01s and an LD20. LEDs have a way of keeping me from getting sleepy, so that's why I use an incan nightlight.




You guys in the Incan world really need to get out ;-)

Get an LED flashlight made up with a 2,700K high CRI LED. There is very little blue content in them which is what "may" keep you from getting sleepy. Of course could always make one up with yellow/red LEDs too. Either way, runtime will never be an issue.


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## fivemega (Dec 30, 2012)

*It's good to see LED guys visit incandescent subforum more than incandescent guys.*


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## SemiMan (Dec 30, 2012)

I still have several halogen spotlights. I can't say they get a ton of use, but they get used. I think that means I am both a LED guy and an incan guy. I also have several maglites, but more for nostalgic reasons. I have a range of LED flashlights at a variety of color temps. Most are off the shelf but modified with the LEDs of my choosing. I think there are misconceptions of LEDs that are often based on limited knowledge of what is possible. The comment above about LEDs keeping me from getting sleepy has merit, if you have used cool white LEDs only. Circadian rhythm is regulated by light under 520nm of which cool white LEDs have quite a bit. High CRI 2700K LEDs on the other hand have very little, similar to an Incan. They don't get warmer as they dim, but you can run them at lower power for long periods of time.

Semiman


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## Paolo B (Dec 30, 2012)

Admiralgrey said:


> I doubt bulb life is diminished by using rechargeables. Voltage will be less when fired up, meaning less stress on the filament.
> 
> Perhaps Yellow is referring to the original vacuum bulbs, as I imagine the new xenon filled ones would be good for more than 7.5hours.
> 
> I agree with you on that Paolo B; a solitaire + eneloop is my chosen nightlight



Cool 



SemiMan said:


> Get an LED flashlight made up with a 2,700K high CRI LED. There is very little blue content in them which is what "may" keep you from getting sleepy. Of course could always make one up with yellow/red LEDs too.





SemiMan said:


> I think there are misconceptions of LEDs that are often based on limited knowledge of what is possible. The comment above about LEDs keeping me from getting sleepy has merit, if you have used cool white LEDs only. Circadian rhythm is regulated by light under 520nm of which cool white LEDs have quite a bit. High CRI 2700K LEDs on the other hand have very little, similar to an Incan.
> 
> I'm flashlight illiterate, unfortunately. Would orange or red lip balm caps on an LED get me out of the circadian rhythm disrupting zone?


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## yellow (Dec 30, 2012)

unfortunately what one likes must not be good for the other and that impression with disturbing Your sleep is a very special thing. 
You might try a "warm white" led but there is no guarantee at all, that it will have the same effect as the incan.

Also I dont have any clue on where/how to get a warm white in a small light ... :thinking:
There are Claipsoii's led rings for the A2, or warm white / high CRI P60 insert from nailbender for an 18650 light 
... but all not for small lights

Someone eventually tried modding an E01 with a warm white?


off topic: anyone has actual data for the lifetime of a MM bulb till ?


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## SemiMan (Dec 30, 2012)

Paolo B said:


> Cool
> 
> I'm flashlight illiterate, unfortunately. Would orange or red lip balm caps on an LED get me out of the circadian rhythm disrupting zone?




Without knowing the transmission spectra I couldn't say for sure, but I expect it would. There are lighting films used by theatre and film that are cheap and would be reasonably effective without killing the whole spectrum.


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## SemiMan (Dec 30, 2012)

yellow said:


> unfortunately what one likes must not be good for the other and that impression with disturbing Your sleep is a very special thing.
> You might try a "warm white" led but there is no guarantee at all, that it will have the same effect as the incan.



- What do you base this comment on?

- Circadian rhythm and wavelength of light is now very well understood

- With the exception of not having large amounts of IR and near IR, high CRI leds very closely match the spectrum of incan, or at least typical incan at the typical designed operating point. 


It is easy to mod a flashlight with a warm white LED. Almost every LED made can be bought in a warm white version. Some warm white LEDs are better than others. I find Luxeon Rebels, Nichia 219 to have the closest to Incan spectrum. Cree are tolerable, and multimode small Cree XPE/XPG lights are available from many sources.


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## yellow (Dec 31, 2012)

SemiMan said:


> - What do you base this comment on?


I "base" my comment on Paolo feeling led output keeps him from getting sleepy, while the MM incan is better suited from him
and thus even a warm white must not improve that feeling - it could, but thats no surefire winner

But You possibly know better ... maybe even than him


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## mat_the_cat (Jan 1, 2013)

yellow said:


> Someone eventually tried modding an E01 with a warm white?


OT, sorry, but yes 
http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?329718-Fenix-E01-Warm-white-mod


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## fivemega (Jan 1, 2013)

FloggedSynapse said:


> [size=+4]Incandescent:[/size] [size=+1]low lumens, long runtime ? Any available.[/size]


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## SemiMan (Jan 2, 2013)

yellow said:


> I "base" my comment on Paolo feeling led output keeps him from getting sleepy, while the MM incan is better suited from him
> and thus even a warm white must not improve that feeling - it could, but thats no surefire winner
> 
> But You possibly know better ... maybe even than him



Not a matter of knowing better simply that if the spectrums are the same then the source makes no difference. Paolo from his comment was comparing to a cool or at least neutral LED. That is much different from a very warm LED.

Semiman


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## Burgess (Jan 2, 2013)

a 2-D cell flashlight, using a *PR-6* bulb.

This is a much better choice than the PR-4 bulb.

Bulb life is* much longer*. 30 Hours rated, vs. 10 Hours.


Before i encountered CPF, in 2006, that combination was MY long-life low-output solution !


_


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## Jimson (Jan 6, 2013)

*IMO the bulb you need - if you can still locate it - is a 395x.*



FloggedSynapse said:


> Any available. I was thinking of 2-10 lumens, with a minimum runtime of 5-10 hours. Some sort of incan nightlight.
> 
> For example the A2's bulb is good for ~50 lumens/1 hour. How about an incan bulb (hot wire) with an output of 5 lumens for 10 hours. Possible?
> 
> Something about the quality of light from a hotwire.. it can't be reproduced using an LED technology. However the 'runtime' of most incandescents does not exceed 1 hour and is their biggest drawback.



https://www.interlight.biz/light-bulb/395X#Specs

It was made for those old 'crank/squeeze' lights, and with a draw of only 70 ma. was easy on the hands. With a rating of 3 volts, it'll last longer than most, but downrated with a pair of 1.2v rechargeables, the thing ought to last for quite a long time. Yes, it's dim, for most of the juice is wasted heating the wire, but in the old days it was better than nothing when really long run-times were required.

A few screw-base miniature lamps were made with the same output, but they're probably also going to be hard to locate. The 395x is worth the search because it'll drop right into a ordinary flashlight.


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## night.hoodie (Jul 23, 2018)

*Re: IMO the bulb you need - if you can still locate it - is a 395x.*

Resurrecting! I don't see a whole lot of interest threads in low lumen incan. It is on my mind more than high lumens. 

The incan Solitaire I still like, but I use a little ring around the lamp, 10440 cells and higher voltage surplus military avionics lamps. Good runtime, believe it or not, mostly half as bright as incan MiniMag, and the lamps last. Problematic without an aluminum reflector and glass lens, but the entire light is replaced for $7 last I looked. I hope they are available for a while. This is not all that sturdy, and mostly for fun, but it works pretty good.

Everyone loves the E1e, but it is ultimately bashed for its low lumens. Stock, it is not impressive during the day. The curious are always pointed toward E2e for brightness, and I'm not sure that is a misdirection (for ENC, not EDC). IMO, an E1e with IMR cell and Tad Customs lamps is too bright, and only useful during the day (making 16340 low runtime not much of an issue), unless blinding yourself in the night with dark adapted eyes is useful, or if an outdoor night search or night woods walk comes up (sadly, rare for me). With IMR and matching lamp, I think it is too bright at night for the car or bedstand. I bought some primary cells that were old, had been shelved awhile, and the battery moon mode appears after 10 minutes. The lumen level is low, but right where I want it, and runtime is ordinary. New primaries give me the full 15 lumens much longer. 15 Lumens is bright as heck when your eyes are dark adapted, I prefer half that for low level incan. I save half-depleted cells for low lumen flashlighting.

2xAA E Series bodies with Elite heads give me nearly the same lumens with probably a flatter discharge curve with NiMH, if ever a full 15 lumens, it is brief, but love that flat NiMH output curve. Love this setup, need more. Hope Tad actually gets those 3012 lamps in, but they might be too bright, and I might stick with underdriving 3712 or others. I found Exell's 1600mAh 2/3A NiMH cells to fit E2e with a couple magnet spacers, work great giving good rechargeable runtime and E1e lumens, but the cells probably not all that LSD, and charging them takes a long time. I just need more and faster charger slots. The E2e is arguably a better hand/pocket size than E1e, if only it didn't come stock with too many lumens (for dark adaptation) then customized with absurd amounts of incan lumens, which the Exell 2/3A NiMH cells fix. I kid, perfect the way it is... for daytime, at least.

Others incan E users might be satisfied with the LightSaver Miser lower modes, for lower incans and longer runtime, but the slow PWM bothers me. The z52 can be tricked into lower "modes" without PWM, takes practice and isn't precise, may flicker, and though runtime is increased, it is not as much as we want. I'd like to see more tail mods to lower voltage (regulate) and increase runtime specifically for Li-ion... a lower lumen longer runtime E tailcap switch. It has been done, wish I had the hands, eyes, tools and skill to do one.


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## snakebite (Aug 12, 2018)

*Re: IMO the bulb you need - if you can still locate it - is a 395x.*

might try a pr9 in a 2 d
PR1 2.00v 0.95a 40hr
PR2 2.38v 0.50a 15hr
PR3 3.57v 0.30a 15hr
PR4 2.33v 0.27a 10hr
PR6 2.47v 0.30a 30hr
PR7 3.70v 0.30a 30hr 1.110w
PR9 2.70v 0.15a 45hr
PR12 5.95v 0.50a 15hr
PR13 4.75v 0.50a 15hr
PR15 4.82v 0.50a 30hr
PR16 12.50v 0.25a 50hr
PR17 4.90v 0.30a 30hr
PR18 7.20v 0.55a 3hr
PR20 8.63v 0.50a 15hr
PR29 3.60v 0.20a 30hr 0.720w
PR30 3.75v 0.86a 40hr 3.225w
PR31 2.40v 0.70a 40hr
PR33 2.60v 1.00a 20hr 2.60w


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## night.hoodie (Aug 12, 2018)

*Re: IMO the bulb you need - if you can still locate it - is a 395x.*



snakebite said:


> might try a pr9 in a 2 d
> PR1 2.00v 0.95a 40hr
> PR2 2.38v 0.50a 15hr
> PR3 3.57v 0.30a 15hr
> ...



Good info, and though I don't doubt it, still hard to believe. I have nothing against Mag other than size; the C&D bodies and heads are not compact, though I always thought every MagLite product was acceptably attractive, durable, and plenty useful for most flashlight tasking. I wish fivemega or Lumens Factory would design and release an E Series thread compatible head and reflector with a socket that could accept the standard Mag lamp base. It couldn't be ideal, but at least it would be compact, and increase E series lamp options, especially low lumen long runtime E series lamp options.


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## broadgage (Aug 18, 2018)

*Re: IMO the bulb you need - if you can still locate it - is a 395x.*

http://www.cp-lighting.co.uk/11X30-2-7V-150mA-0-4W-P13-5s For any 2 cell flashlight that uses a PR based bulb, low consumption lamps are available.
2.7 volt 0.15 amp for example.
That would give about 100 hours service from alkaline D cells.

The above is a UK supplier, but something similar should be available in the US.
They ship internationally AFAIK.


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## night.hoodie (Aug 18, 2018)

*Re: IMO the bulb you need - if you can still locate it - is a 395x.*

I should share this setup, because I use it often: Malkoff 1xAA body with Elite head and Lumens Factory 3V lamp (or SF 3V MN01) running with NiMH 1.2V AA Eneloop I get a nice dropoff from 4 lumens to sublumenal in over an hour, I think about 40 minutes or so of 1-2lm of easy-on-the-eyes incan. 

Reading about AA Eneloops, they can handle a lot of current, and I wonder how bright a 1.1V 8A lamp (if it existed in G2 bipin for a Tads E Socket) would be for how long in this setup. That's a little extreme, and 1.35V at 2A would probably be more likely. Energizer Ultimate Lithium cells are also tolerate high amps with little loss of capacity, so for those, perhaps a 1.4V 2-3A lamp. 

I wish there were G2 base bipin lamps available that were matched for high amp NiMH, another for Alkaline and another for Lithium AA, in two series, a higher amp lamp series (in each chem) for max brightness for 20 minutes of runtime, and another lamp design set (for each chem) for max efficiency at whatever the brightness would be. 

Single AA incan is not common... but I wish it were.


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## gurdygurds (Sep 16, 2018)

*Re: IMO the bulb you need - if you can still locate it - is a 395x.*

Do you have a photo of your malkoff setup that you can share?


night.hoodie said:


> I should share this setup, because I use it often: Malkoff 1xAA body with Elite head and Lumens Factory 3V lamp (or SF 3V MN01) running with NiMH 1.2V AA Eneloop I get a nice dropoff from 4 lumens to sublumenal in over an hour, I think about 40 minutes or so of 1-2lm of easy-on-the-eyes incan.
> 
> Reading about AA Eneloops, they can handle a lot of current, and I wonder how bright a 1.1V 8A lamp (if it existed in G2 bipin for a Tads E Socket) would be for how long in this setup. That's a little extreme, and 1.35V at 2A would probably be more likely. Energizer Ultimate Lithium cells are also tolerate high amps with little loss of capacity, so for those, perhaps a 1.4V 2-3A lamp.
> 
> ...


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## night.hoodie (Nov 6, 2018)

*Re: IMO the bulb you need - if you can still locate it - is a 395x.*



gurdygurds said:


> Do you have a photo of your malkoff setup that you can share?














oops, unintentionally swapped order of lights, in below image, MN01 on left, LF on right, 






for some idea of relative brightness, bright one is A3712 at 4.0V (probably should have used a 3V 15lm light for relative brightness... duh)


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## LeanBurn (Nov 6, 2018)

*Re: IMO the bulb you need - if you can still locate it - is a 395x.*

Its too bad it has to be strictly an incan bulb. If you opened the parameters enough to allow a Yuji LED 95+ CRI a whole new vista of options would open to you and satisfy every parameter... and then some. Decades of bulb longevity, weeks and months of light from the same cells. CRI and tint that would have you second guessing the light bulb type.


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## broadgage (Nov 9, 2018)

*Re: IMO the bulb you need - if you can still locate it - is a 395x.*



snakebite said:


> might try a pr9 in a 2 d
> PR1 2.00v 0.95a 40hr
> PR2 2.38v 0.50a 15hr
> PR3 3.57v 0.30a 15hr
> ...



Some of hose run times look very optimistic.
No way will two alkaline D cells drive a 1 amp bulb for 20 hours, under 8 hours more likely.


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## RobertMM (Nov 9, 2018)

*Re: IMO the bulb you need - if you can still locate it - is a 395x.*

So those are projected runtimes?

Silly me, I thought they were lamp life hours.


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## apete2 (Nov 9, 2018)

*Re: IMO the bulb you need - if you can still locate it - is a 395x.*

Minimag 2aa bulb can work in a 2c or 2d with the new nip in adapter. You just have to bend the pins out. Throws very far


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## broadgage (Nov 11, 2018)

*Re: IMO the bulb you need - if you can still locate it - is a 395x.*



RobertMM said:


> So those are projected runtimes?
> 
> Silly me, I thought they were lamp life hours.



I assumed that the figures were estimated battery run times. I could of course be mistaken.


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## RobertMM (Nov 17, 2018)

*Re: IMO the bulb you need - if you can still locate it - is a 395x.*



apete2 said:


> Minimag 2aa bulb can work in a 2c or 2d with the new nip in adapter. You just have to bend the pins out. Throws very far



I haven't thought of this! 
Runtime may be spectacular with bnew Alkalines.


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