# 10.5in IS Sphere incan OTF readings by bigchelis



## bigchelis (Mar 22, 2010)

Mods,
I have this in the LED section, but if its okay I would like to keep the Incan section here. Thanks!











































*Light____________________Lamp_____________ Cells____________ Lumens____ Time___5m lux__1m lux (cal)__* 

Surefire C2 w/KT-1________6V Stock N1_________2 Surefire CR123_________97.7______1 sec______460______11,500_____
__________________________________*________*______________________76.2______30 sec_________________________
*________*________________________________________________________70.8______1 min__________________________
________________________*1.09A at the tail*___________________________69.2______2 min_________________________
_________________________________________________________________70.0______3 min_________________________
Surefire C2 w/KT-1________6V Stock N1__________5*2/3 NiMH___________155.4______1 sec______927______23,175_____
__________________________________*________*_____________________146.2______30 sec_________________________
*________*_______________________________________________________142.3______1 min__________________________
________________________*1.19A at the tail*__________________________138.5______2 min_________________________
________________________________________________________________137.7______3 min_________________________


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## RichS (Mar 22, 2010)

Many thanks bigchelis!! It's great to see the actual out the front lumens on these very popular incan hotwires. 

Let me be the first to place my vote on this being added as a sticky, or at the very least to the 'Incandescent Forum - Threads of Interest' sticky. It will be referenced a lot...

BTW - is there any way you could add the P91 and LF IMR-9 information to this chart? I saw these readings in your other chart in the LED section.

Thanks again!!


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## bigchelis (Mar 22, 2010)

no problemo,, I just realized they are in the LED graphs


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## ^^Nova^^ (Mar 22, 2010)

Awesome work.:twothumbs

It would be interesting to see how the 5761 stacks up as well. I realise you don't have a never ending supply of torches (how cool would that be), but just thought I would mention a bulb that would be nice to see measured.

Cheers,
Nova


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## Justin Case (Mar 22, 2010)

I hope you can figure out a way to test a 4D Mag623 using 5xIMR26500 with a JimmyM constant voltage regulator.


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## jaundice (Mar 23, 2010)

Justin;

I plan on bringing it over to BigC's house as soon as I get it. 

BigC;

I haven't spoken to you about this, but I have one of Justin Case's new builds coming. By his description, you should be able to guess what it is! It's a Mag623 running at 15.5v for 160 watts! Do you have a fire extinguisher handy, in case it's too much for your sphere?

-John


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## bigchelis (Mar 23, 2010)

Wow...let me know when you get that 160watt monster. We can measure it starting at 1 minute to allow for the peak temperatures to drop and keep my Sphere somewhat fire safe.


We can do the 5 meter lux too just for kicks. 

bigC


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## ANDREAS FERRARI (Mar 23, 2010)

Thanks for posting this BigC.:twothumbs

I thought the JC5607 might perform nearly as well as the FM1909 but apparently not.

Can you tell me the runtime of these bulbs.You would think the 5607 would run longer but than it is being severely overdriven and might be drawing as much juice as the 1909.Any thoughts?


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## bigchelis (Mar 23, 2010)

ANDREAS FERRARI said:


> Thanks for posting this BigC.:twothumbs
> 
> I thought the JC5607 might perform nearly as well as the FM1909 but apparently not.
> 
> Can you tell me the runtime of these bulbs.You would think the 5607 would run longer but than it is being severely overdriven and might be drawing as much juice as the 1909.Any thoughts?


 

Honestly; I been using them on my Desk Lamp It is 12v with no sag via wall outlet and they last about 2 weeks before they . So, maybe 20 hours at least before they go  and 12V with no sag is driving them harder than the 3 IMR C cells.


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## Steve in SoCal (Mar 23, 2010)

Thanks BC. Definitely some good info here.:twothumbs


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## Justin Case (Mar 23, 2010)

bigchelis said:


> Wow...let me know when you get that 160watt monster. We can measure it starting at 1 minute to allow for the peak temperatures to drop and keep my Sphere somewhat fire safe.
> 
> 
> We can do the 5 meter lux too just for kicks.
> ...


 
I'm not sure anything is going to decrease after only one minute. The JimmyM regulator should keep the input voltage to the Osram 64623 bulb constant as long as the 5xIMR26500s can hold above 15.0V. So in theory, incan output should be constant until the batts give up the ghost. At about 10A draw, that shouldn't take too long.

Another option is to test with an Osram 64440 IRC bulb, which should draw less than 5A at 15.5V. That bulb should be able to run at 18V-19V and still deliver a decent balance of lumens vs bulb life.


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## Jay T (Mar 24, 2010)

ANDREAS FERRARI said:


> Thanks for posting this BigC.:twothumbs
> 
> I thought the JC5607 might perform nearly as well as the FM1909 but apparently not.




What is really strange is that from the chart an 1185 on 3 x IMR26500s is a little brighter than the JC5607 on 3 x IMR26500s?

I wonder what the builds of these lights were? Were they using a kiu socket, an AW soft start or was it a simple drop in adapter with the spring tower? The higher the current the greater the voltage drop, and the spring has a good deal of resistance.


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## bigchelis (Mar 24, 2010)

Jay T said:


> What is really strange is that from the chart an 1185 on 3 x IMR26500s is a little brighter than the JC5607 on 3 x IMR26500s?
> 
> I wonder what the builds of these lights were? Were they using a kiu socket, an AW soft start or was it a simple drop in adapter with the spring tower? The higher the current the greater the voltage drop, and the spring has a good deal of resistance.


 
Yes, the WA1185 was brighter with less current to boot.

For both lamps I used the same 2D Mag with stock switch and no soft-start. The spring in the tail is super short and I just put a plastic pipe to hold the IMR 26500 cells in place. If you see I actually tested the WA1185 in my 2D Mag twice. The 1st time the cells were drained to less then 4V or so; which was my attemp to not blow the bulb. Then I got brave and topped off the IMR C cells at 4.21v each and it worked with no soft-start and I got much higher OTF readings too. I use a FM bi-pin kit for those lamps. 

I been meaning to re-do the WA1185 and FM 1909 with a resistance mod, but I think I have to do that to the switch not the tail cap resistance. 

I don't have anymore D size switches as I think the FM1909 melted something in there. This is the 2nd switch it does it to:tired:

*If anybody has a D size switch that has a resistance Mod already done to it please PM so I can re-test, but I can't gurantee it wont melt or get damaged...Thanks.*


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## Fulgeo (Mar 25, 2010)

Just wanted to say I have used the FM1909 quite a bit and have not experienced any trouble with switch failures. I used a 3D Mag host and a Kiu socket kit to make my mod(s). I also did resistant mods including using copper braided wire and car water hose sections to make the tail spring. Bigchelis, I would be very interested in knowing how your switch failed. If you disassemble your switch and determine how it failed please share your results. Thanks in advance. 

Happy mods!


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## Justin Case (Mar 25, 2010)

The consensus on CPF seems to be that the D Mag switch can handle about 4A-5A without problems. Thus, the 1909 lamp might be marginal. One person might have a switch that can handle around 5A, while someone else has one that can handle 4A. Or the various parasitic resistances in one light results in a current draw of say 4.5A, while a different, lower resistance light might pull 5.5A. Using IMR26500s can have an effect as well.

There is a thread in the Homemade forum on installing a 10A Radio Shack rocker switch into a D Mag switch housing.

IMO, a better option, though more expensive and more involved, is building a mod'ed D Mag switch using the excellent JimmyM hotwire regulator. You get soft start, *regulated* incan output, low batt warning, temperature sensing, and multimodes (if you want that regulator version).


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## RichS (Mar 25, 2010)

BC - I often get asked - "so how does your light compare to one of those big stock maglites?". Many people still consider the 3D Maglite the "biggest and brightest" flashlight you can buy.

I actually bought a 3D Maglite and left it completely stock just so I could do a direct comparison with it compared to one of my hotwires. When I'm not able to actually demonstrate the difference, I estimate the difference in lumens. But, I would love to be able to tell them the actual tested out the front lumens of a 2D or 3D stock Maglite.

By any chance, would you happen to have (or have access to) a stock 2D or 3D Maglite that you could test in your IS Sphere? 

Thanks!

-Rich


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## Jay T (Mar 25, 2010)

Justin Case said:


> The consensus on CPF seems to be that the D Mag switch can handle about 4A-5A without problems. Thus, the 1909 lamp might be marginal. One person might have a switch that can handle around 5A, while someone else has one that can handle 4A. Or the various parasitic resistances in one light results in a current draw of say 4.5A, while a different, lower resistance light might pull 5.5A. Using IMR26500s can have an effect as well.
> --- snip ------



The switch or the switch tower assembly? The switch is a little black and blue thing stuck inside the tower. It sounds like bigchelis is melting the tower where the spring goes.

I have a 100W (8-9A) Mag that I bought from Fivemega, do you know what the switch at the heart of this light is. If it's good enough for an FM build it's good enough for me. 




^The tower has been cut off and a metal pin from the lamp holder directely contacts the switch when it is installed in the light. 

No doubt a regulated driver or installing a high current rocker would be better, however, I doubt a 1909 is pushing the stock switch past it's limits.

Edit to add:
That's the good thing about a KIU kit. You eliminate the whole tower contact/spring/contact thing and just solder a wire right onto the switch.


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## bigchelis (Mar 25, 2010)

My FM1909 pulls 5.6 + at the tail with 3 IMR 4.21v 26500 cells....


The spring that pushes the tower down bends or looses tention where they stop working. I think the actual switch still works, but the springs give out where they somehow make my 2D Mag not work.. I use FM Bi-pin kit and thats it. 

I wish I had the regulated Mag switch for the tests maybe I can borrow Jaudice for testing.


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## jaundice (Mar 25, 2010)

bigchelis said:


> I wish I had the regulated Mag switch for the tests maybe I can borrow Jaudice for testing.


 
BigC;

Sounds good to me. I'll bring it on over when it shows up. The only real issue is that once the JimmyM regulator is set for some specs, it's not that easy to change them. I mean, it's not like you'd just sit on your couch and change settings to see what the result was. It apparently takes some time and patience to get it right. Mine is set at 15.5v and a medium softstart. I can't wait to get it!

-John


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## Justin Case (Mar 25, 2010)

Jay T said:


> The switch or the switch tower assembly? The switch is a little black and blue thing stuck inside the tower. It sounds like bigchelis is melting the tower where the spring goes.
> 
> I have a 100W (8-9A) Mag that I bought from Fivemega, do you know what the switch at the heart of this light is. If it's good enough for an FM build it's good enough for me.
> 
> ...



The clip contacts that you see poking out of the black and blue barrel part touch a contact ring when the push button is pressed. When you exceed the switch capabilities, I think that you can get arcing between those contact points. AFAIK, that's the origin of the 4A-5A Mag switch limit. And an FM1909 definitely can pull close to 6A.

The Kiu socket does not get around the fact that the Mag switch contact ring has to contact those clips.


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## Justin Case (Mar 25, 2010)

jaundice said:


> BigC;
> 
> Sounds good to me. I'll bring it on over when it shows up. The only real issue is that once the JimmyM regulator is set for some specs, it's not that easy to change them. I mean, it's not like you'd just sit on your couch and change settings to see what the result was. It apparently takes some time and patience to get it right. Mine is set at 15.5v and a medium softstart. I can't wait to get it!
> 
> -John



The Vbulb setting is relatively easy to change, but the entire process is sort of a hassle.

Because a Mag623 generates a huge amount of heat, I have some alumina fiber insulation packed on top of the Kiu metal base to insulate the JimmyM driver from the heat from the bulb. You'd have to remove that insulation to get access to the witness holes I drilled into the Kiu base. The holes are above the Vbulb and Vlow pots on the JimmyM driver. You'd then remove the Osram 64623 bulb from the Kiu socket, and unload all of the IMRs. If you can power the JimmyM/Mag switch at this point with a known voltage, life is relatively easy. I suppose you could actually leave the IMR cells in the Mag and use them to power the JimmyM/Mag switch. You'd need two DMMs, one to measure the battery voltage under load and one to measure the voltage across the resistor that you need to insert into the Kiu socket.

Otherwise, you will have to remove the JimmyM/Mag switch. Insert your resistor (e.g., a 1Kohm, 5W) into the Kiu socket in lieu of the Osram bulb for your load (you could use the bulb, but it is very bright and very hot and I wouldn't advise trying to maneuver your DMM probes to try to touch the legs of the bulb). Hook up the JimmyM/Mag switch to a bench power supply and give it some known input voltage (e.g., 18V). Put your DMM across the resistor and measure the voltage. For most inexpensive DMMs, you will measure the average voltage, not the AC+DC true RMS voltage. You have to convert average voltage to true RMS via the eqn

Vavg=(Vrms^2)/Vin

Turn the Vbulb pot until you get a Vavg that corresponds to the Vrms value that you desire.

Jaundice's driver is currently set to Vrms=15.5V. If you want to drive the 64623 harder than that, you have to follow the procedure outlined above.

Then reassemble the light.

The hassle here is that these bi-pin bulbs generally need some slight, manual re-centering in the reflector opening. It's not just pull out, plug in. Then stuff the alumina insulation back in. Make sure the threads are clean of any alumina (it's a nice abrasive too) before screwing the Mag head back on. Re-adjust the reflector focus.

Nothing difficult. Just tedious.

If you want to change the soft start from medium to slow, now you are getting more complicated. This sort of change requires re-programming the ATMEL controller.


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## Justin Case (Mar 25, 2010)

bigchelis said:


> My FM1909 pulls 5.6 + at the tail with 3 IMR 4.21v 26500 cells....
> 
> 
> The spring that pushes the tower down bends or looses tention where they stop working. I think the actual switch still works, but the springs give out where they somehow make my 2D Mag not work.. I use FM Bi-pin kit and thats it.
> ...



Hard to believe that the spring steel is being heated up hot enough to anneal and lose its springiness. Are you talking about the roughly 1" long, shiny chromed spring inside of the tower? Or perhaps the little spring inside of the blue switch barrel?

I can put my soldering iron directly on that ~1" long chromed spring and it stays springy. I think something else has to be going on with your switch.

Maybe the metal ground strap? That looks like some cheap metal that could get soft when heated up and lose contact.

The hassle with using Jaundice's JimmyM/Mag switch to test an FM1909 lamp is that his switch is set up for an Osram 64623, with Vbulb=15.5V and Vlow=15.0V. You'd have to adjust the JimmyM regulator for Vbulb of maybe 12.0V (hopefully the medium soft start is enough to avoid flashing the 1909 -- I have no experience with that bulb).

I avoided the hassle of adjusting Vbulb by building three JimmyM/Mag switches, each configured for various voltage, soft start, and other settings.


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## Justin Case (Mar 26, 2010)

bigchelis said:


> My FM1909 pulls 5.6 + at the tail with 3 IMR 4.21v 26500 cells....
> 
> 
> The spring that pushes the tower down bends or looses tention where they stop working. I think the actual switch still works, but the springs give out where they somehow make my 2D Mag not work.. I use FM Bi-pin kit and thats it.
> ...


 
Can you post some photos of the failed switches.

As I wrote before, the chromed coil spring that fits between two chromed contact caps should easily handle elevated temperature without softening. Lux Luthor measured around 200F 4mm below the 1909 bulb envelope, which should not bother a good steel spring at all.

The sliding ground contact strap, however, is not even ferrous. I don't know what it is made of, but it is clearly cheap metal. A couple of sharp bends, and it snaps in two. That strap has a slight curve in it to make a springy contact to the bulb holder. If that strap flattens, the bulb holder could easily lose ground contact.

You can hardwire a ground wire, instead of depending on that ground strap.

Remove the ground strap and push out the blue/black switch core from the tower housing.

Snip off the strap right at the nut. Solder one end of a wire to the nut that remains (which also holds the grub screw).

Drill a hole in the top of the tower housing right above where the ground nut is located when the switch core is installed in the housing.

Re-insert the switch core into the housing, push the nut back into the blue end of the switch core, and run the wire up through the hole that you drilled.

Make a loop in the free end of the wire that you fed through. Solder this loop to the cam wheel (specifically, solder the loop to the smaller diameter brass spacer piece, not the free-spinning cam wheel itself). That completes the ground bypass connection. You no longer need that ground strap to ground the bulb holder.


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## Fulgeo (Mar 26, 2010)

Just wanted to share additional information on the stock Mag switch and amperage. One of my earliest mods is a blue 2D Mag5761 that I built using FiveMega's brass bi-pin adapter and the stock Mag switch tower. This build has over 25+ hours of use on it. I am in the habit of bumping the switch 5-10 times every time I pick "old blue" up. I have test bumped this light this week. This light has accompanied me on many a late night walk. I have run it for more than 20 minutes straight before and managed to burn my index finger on the lens. Actually raised a blister. I would guestimate that the stock Mag switch has been cycled between 500 to 1000 times with 5.0 to 5.5 amps thru it. I have found the stock Mag switch to be extremely reliable and robust for this build. The FM1909 build I mentioned in an earlier post that uses the Kiu socket has only about 4-5 hours on it. Still works no issues. My understanding of resistance fixes besides making a more efficient torch is that any needless resistance wastes power and that power gets converted into heat. Using a bi-pin adapter with a high wattage lamp (60+ watts) with the stock Mag switch tower with no other resistance mods to said tower is probably asking for troubles especially for long runs. Happy mods!


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## LuxLuthor (Mar 26, 2010)

WOW, bigchelis, now you are in the IS business! Always awsome to see those results. I know how much time it must take you to do all this, including charts and posting!

You are planning on putting a '623 torch that burns newspaper inside of your plastic (or even more vulnerable, is it styrofoam?) custom IS?


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## MrGman (Mar 26, 2010)

Yes big C, remember that all those high wattage incan lights make far more heat than light and its got to to somewhere. You point a 160 watt light into the sphere you may not like the fact that it started to melt or burn the sphere and start turning it brown or black before you realize it. If the inside of the sphere starts "browning" its pretty much ruined and you would have to cut up a new one and recalibrate. So think about it, that's only 10.5 inches max to the back inside wall from the port opening. Pointing even 50 watts worth of light at that might start to damage it. So be careful.

I was very wary to do that even with the bigger 16 inch sphere that I had.


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## Justin Case (Mar 26, 2010)

The sphere is 10.5" inside diam, so probably the far surface is distant enough that the beam from the Mag623 won't damage the styrofoam. But I probably would run a test on a scrap piece of material first. At contact distance with the Borofloat glass window, it takes only seconds for the direct beam to start to melt and bubble and char plastic. This is not a light to treat casually. It is a fire hazard.

You might also want to put some metal foil on the exposed edges of the styrofoam opening where you insert the light to be tested. Even though the Mag head doesn't seem to heat up to anything severe even after about a minute of continuous on time, I would start to worry for some of your longer test runs of 3 min or more.


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## LuxLuthor (Mar 26, 2010)

Oh, so it is styrofoam? No way would I measure that. An effectively powered 623 starts newspaper on fire within 2-3 seconds, granted the black ink IR absorbing aspect is a contributing factor. I think it's enough to say that the '623 is "stupidly bright" and an actual lumen reading is not all that meaninful. Up to you though.


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## jaundice (Mar 26, 2010)

BigC;

No worries if the risk is too high. I'll bring it over anyways, and we can mess around with it. I have some others to test, ones that won't cause your IS to spontaneously combust!

We need to get together with Kramer5150 and his brother, and test my 623 against their HIDs!

-John


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## bigchelis (Mar 30, 2010)

I got a KIU Switch which I think has the resistance mod done at the switch too. I get a solid 5A at the tail with 3 topped off IMR C 26500 cells. No soft-start or anyother type of mod. The reflector is the KD V3 Smooth reflector. Oh, and the 8mm reflectors made no difference in output.

I had tested it in the past with a stock Mag 2D switch and the same reflector with the FM bi-pin kit and thats it. Everything else was repeated 100% the same, yet the OTF lumens are a lot more. 


Does the switch Mod and KIU switch really make that much of a difference? I got the switch from CPF member JayT, so maybe he can explain why I am getting more current at the tail too.

Here is his switch:









*Look at the before and After....It is really amazing. Now, it looks like I have to re-test the other ones too.:mecry:*


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## Justin Case (Mar 31, 2010)

When you start dealing with high currents, even small parasitic resistances can have a big effect.

For example, I^2R resistance heating at 5A draw and let's say 40milliohms can give you 5^2 * 0.04 = 1W. Increase the current to 10A and you are looking at 4W. IMO, 4W is a lot of excess heat.

Similarly, small resistances can result in significant enough voltage drops to reduce your direct drive current such that the lumens reduction is noticeable. For example, suppose your 3 min, 4.8A draw data for the Kiu socket had been turn-on data for some other system with higher resistance than the Kiu socket. For 3 min of run time on 3xIMR26500, the voltage could have sagged maybe 0.2V (just a guess). So what kind of resistance would give you 0.2V parasitic loss? R = 0.2/4.8 ~40milliohms.


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## MrGman (Mar 31, 2010)

Justin Case said:


> When you start dealing with high currents, even small parasitic resistances can have a big effect.
> 
> For example, I^2R resistance heating at 5A draw and let's say 40milliohms can give you 5^2 * 0.04 = 1W. Increase the current to 10A and you are looking at 4W. IMO, 4W is a lot of excess heat.
> 
> Similarly, small resistances can result in significant enough voltage drops to reduce your direct drive current such that the lumens reduction is noticeable. For example, suppose your 3 min, 4.8A draw data for the Kiu socket had been turn-on data for some other system with higher resistance than the Kiu socket. For 3 min of run time on 3xIMR26500, the voltage could have sagged maybe 0.2V (just a guess). So what kind of resistance would give you 0.2V parasitic loss? R = 0.2/4.8 ~40milliohms.


 
This is exactly right. the bad news is that I have tested some standard switches of various flashlights as is and found contact resistances of 100 milliohms and 200 millioms. try and put 5 amps through 100 milliom and you lose 0.5V and your wasting 2.5 watts, ouch. I use 4 point Kelvin connections when I test low contact resistances in the lab with real lab equipment. 

And some switches not rated for high current that get put into these modified lamps will arc and oxidize have their contact resistance go up over time. I only wish most of them were at a decent 40 milliohms.


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## bigchelis (Mar 31, 2010)

Well, I re-tested the Fivemega FM1909 with the KIU socket kit and the OTF results are about the same. 

Also, I threw the stock D switch in the waste bin a while ago...

My previous Poorman FM1909 bulbs only net me 4.85A max at the tail, and now I get 5A max.

*And here below are the results of the REAL Fivemega FM1909.*


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## Billy Ram (Apr 1, 2010)

The mag switch can handle the 5.5a. the FM1909 draws @11.6v. with no problems using the kiu kit. I have run mine for 45 mins straight a few times. But it won't last too long drawing 6a. @ 19.5v. 
Looks like the poor mans 1909 isn't much if any better than a good m*g85.
Billy


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## bigchelis (Apr 2, 2010)

More tests comming.


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## Fulgeo (Apr 2, 2010)

Billy Ram said:


> Looks like the poor mans 1909 isn't much if any better than a good m*g85.
> Billy



Hey Billy Ram,

I have more than one Mag85 and the FM1909 spanks them handily even over long runs lumen output wise. One thing I really like about the FM1909 is that you do not have to worry about insta-flash with three hot off the charger IMR26500 lithium cells. Oh and the one and only thing I really do not like about the FM1909 is its price.


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## RichS (Apr 2, 2010)

Fulgeo said:


> Hey Billy Ram,
> 
> I have more than one Mag85 and the FM1909 spanks them handily even over long runs lumen output wise. One thing I really like about the FM1909 is that you do not have to worry about insta-flash with three hot off the charger IMR26500 lithium cells. Oh and the one and only thing I really do not like about the FM1909 is its price.


 
Billy Ram wasn't referring to FM's 1909, he was referring to the "poor man's 1909" which is a different bulb. It is the JC 6v 20 Watt bulb by Hikari, which you can also run on 3xIMRs. Some estimated that it is as bright as the FM1909, but much cheaper. As it turns out, it's not near as bright as the FM1909, and is even slightly bested by the WA1185.


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## Fulgeo (Apr 2, 2010)

RichS said:


> Billy Ram wasn't referring to FM's 1909, he was referring to the "poor man's 1909" which is a different bulb. It is the JC 6v 20 Watt bulb by Hikari, which you can also run on 3xIMRs. Some estimated that it is as bright as the FM1909, but much cheaper. As it turns out, it's not near as bright as the FM1909, and is even slightly bested by the WA1185.



My bad. I knew about the Hikari JC5607 but missed the "Poor Man's 1909" nickname. Thank for the correction and hats off to Billy Ram.


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## leukos (Apr 3, 2010)

RichS said:


> Billy Ram wasn't referring to FM's 1909, he was referring to the "poor man's 1909" which is a different bulb. It is the JC 6v 20 Watt bulb by Hikari, which you can also run on 3xIMRs. Some estimated that it is as bright as the FM1909, but much cheaper. As it turns out, it's not near as bright as the FM1909, and is even slightly bested by the WA1185.


 
From posts #30 and #33 after the KIU switch was installed, the FM1909 and "poor man's 1909" look like fairly equal performers....


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## fivemega (Apr 3, 2010)

*Something is not right here.
When FM1909 see 11.5 volts at bulb pins, at bulb pins, at bulb pins, current draw must be 5.5 Amps so total power is 63 watts.*


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## bigchelis (Apr 3, 2010)

fivemega said:


> *Something is not right here.*
> *When FM1909 see 11.5 volts at bulb pins, at bulb pins, at bulb pins, current draw must be 5.5 Amps so total power is 63 watts.*


 


If I recall it was 5.6A at the tail and the IMR cells I have are only 2300mAh capacity, so the high levels of current are not sustainable. Thus; the output drops and drops and drops. I still expected the lumens to be 1500 OTF at 5 minutes, but nope.

bigC


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## RichS (Apr 3, 2010)

leukos said:


> From posts #30 and #33 after the KIU switch was installed, the FM1909 and "poor man's 1909" look like fairly equal performers....


 
Wow, you're right - don't know how I missed that post. That change in resistance provided a 33% increase in output!


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## RichS (Apr 3, 2010)

RichS said:


> BC - I often get asked - "so how does your light compare to one of those big stock maglites?". Many people still consider the 3D Maglite the "biggest and brightest" flashlight you can buy.
> 
> I actually bought a 3D Maglite and left it completely stock just so I could do a direct comparison with it compared to one of my hotwires. When I'm not able to actually demonstrate the difference, I estimate the difference in lumens. But, I would love to be able to tell them the actual tested out the front lumens of a 2D or 3D stock Maglite.
> 
> ...


 
What about it BigC? Got a stock maglite to test in your sphere by any chance?


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## Billy Ram (Apr 3, 2010)

I have 2 very bright FM09s I wish could be compared to the ones tested but I just live too far away. Both have every bit of resistance removed possable and have TM 2.5 VLOP reflectors.
Billy


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## FroggyTaco (Apr 3, 2010)

Billy Ram said:


> I have 2 very bright FM09s I wish could be compared to the ones tested but I just live too far away. Both have every bit of resistance removed possable and have TM 2.5 VLOP reflectors.
> Billy



Mail them! I sent some of my lights to him.


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## Billy Ram (Apr 3, 2010)

FroggyTaco said:


> Mail them! I sent some of my lights to him.


 You're a lot closer than I am. I'm in a whole differant world.
Billy


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## bigchelis (Apr 3, 2010)

I want to test stock Mag bulbs, but I have no NiMH C or D cells anymore..much less Alkanlines in those calibers.

I may have a 3C,2C, 5C lamp though.


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## jaundice (Apr 3, 2010)

BigC;

I have stock 2D, 3D, and 4D mags, with alkalines and bulbs, that we could test the next time I head over.

I also want to do some tests to determine how much additional light loss occurs in Surefire shock isolated bezels, versus non-shock isolated bezels. 

-John


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## MrGman (Apr 3, 2010)

Big C, if you insult the Sphere O Truth with those puny low output original maglight lamps it may never give you good readings again. Don't do it man. Bad enought its incans but stock less than 100 lumen incans??? Its an insult to all that is true and pure about white light. 

Don't go over to the dim yellow side.


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## FroggyTaco (Apr 3, 2010)

MrGman said:


> Big C, if you insult the Sphere O Truth with those puny low output original maglight lamps it may never give you good readings again. Don't do it man. Bad enought its incans but stock less than 100 lumen incans??? Its an insult to all that is true and pure about white light.
> 
> Don't go over to the dim yellow side.



We need the numbers to be able to put all our mag worshipping friends in their place!


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## bigchelis (Apr 3, 2010)

I am worried about measuring the stock Mags... what will people think


John,

Bring them over next time.


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## Justin Case (Apr 4, 2010)

bigchelis said:


> I got a KIU Switch which I think has the resistance mod done at the switch too. I get a solid 5A at the tail with 3 topped off IMR C 26500 cells. No soft-start or anyother type of mod. The reflector is the KD V3 Smooth reflector. Oh, and the 8mm reflectors made no difference in output.
> 
> I had tested it in the past with a stock Mag 2D switch and the same reflector with the FM bi-pin kit and thats it. Everything else was repeated 100% the same, yet the OTF lumens are a lot more.
> 
> ...



Is the c-clip inserted into the groove to hold the switch tower? It doesn't look like it in your photo above.

If you are having Mag switch problems due to bulb heat, you can try packing in some alumina fiber insulation on top of the switch. At least it will insulate against the bulb shining directly on top of the switch housing.

Your OTF numbers for the Hikari seem to suggest about a 50% reflector/window loss when compared to the bulb lumens estimates from Lux Luthor's JC-5607 table.

Also, it's interesting that the 8mm opening KD reflector and the 15mm opening KD v3 reflector showed no difference in OTF lumens.


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## Jay T (Apr 4, 2010)

Justin Case said:


> Is the c-clip inserted into the groove to hold the switch tower? It doesn't look like it in your photo above.
> ........................



The Kiu Al plate makes the switch extend higher up, it won't fit with the retaining ring in the slot. The ring is friction fit to hold the plate in place.

It takes a while to load, but, here are Kiu's instructions. http://kiu01139.host.sk/1.htm


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## Dioni (Apr 4, 2010)

Wow... How didnt I saw this thread before? 

Nice work!
:goodjob:


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## Justin Case (Apr 4, 2010)

Jay T said:


> The Kiu Al plate makes the switch extend higher up, it won't fit with the retaining ring in the slot. The ring is friction fit to hold the plate in place.
> 
> It takes a while to load, but, here are Kiu's instructions. http://kiu01139.host.sk/1.htm



Yeah, I forgot that the Kiu aluminum base raises up the switch height.

I don't use the c-clip to hold the Kiu aluminum base to the black Mag switch housing. I drill two pilot holes and use the Kiu screws to hold the Kiu base on the Mag switch housing. I have to drill multiple holes anyway to install the JimmyM regulator. Having the entire assembly held together as a single unit, rather than having the black Mag switch housing dangling loose by the Kiu wires, makes for a nicer look for my JimmyM regulator mod'ed Mag switch and also makes it an easy drop-in process to install the mod'ed switch in other Mag bodies.


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## bigchelis (Apr 5, 2010)

I just showed off my FM 1909 and 2.5in Turbo head FM to my buddies and they were shocked that I could pack over 50 watts into a handheld unit.


I didn't explain how its done, but they still think I am lying.


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## fivemega (Apr 5, 2010)

bigchelis said:


> If I recall it was 5.6A at the tail and the IMR cells I have are only 2300mAh capacity, so the high levels of current are not sustainable. Thus; the output drops and drops and drops. I still expected the lumens to be 1500 OTF at 5 minutes, but nope.
> 
> bigC


*If FM1909 draws 5.6 amps @ 11.5 volts, wattage should be at least 64 watt.
So, where did you get 55 watt?
If you tested with 10.5 volts @ 5.2 amps (10.5x5.2=54.6) then you have completly depleted batteries. (10.5:3=3.5 volts)*


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## bigchelis (Apr 5, 2010)

fivemega said:


> *If FM1909 draws 5.6 amps @ 11.5 volts, wattage should be at least 64 watt.*
> *So, where did you get 55 watt?*
> *If you tested with 10.5 volts @ 5.2 amps (10.5x5.2=54.6) then you have completly depleted batteries. (10.5:3=3.5 volts)*


 


I guess the best way is to write down in my spreadsheet the full 64 watts and then note that its with no load.:twothumbs


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## fivemega (Apr 5, 2010)

bigchelis said:


> I guess the best way is to write down in my spreadsheet the full 64 watts and then note that its with no load.:twothumbs


*If you are loosing 9 watts under load, then you will need to check your batteries or fix total resistance.
This bulb is designed to work with 11.5 volts and will draw about 5.5 amps. If you are measuring 5.6 amps current draw under load, voltage at bulb pins must be at least 11.5 volts.*


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## bigchelis (Apr 24, 2010)

Here are my latest tests:


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## DM51 (Apr 25, 2010)

Excellent companion to the LED version. I'm adding this to the Incan section's Threads of Interest sticky.


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## bigchelis (May 3, 2010)

Here are some more incan tests.

The WA1274 with the KD V3 smooth reflector actually has a surprisingly nice beam. The throw is insane too with a pencil like beam. It reminds me of the ROP H 3854.


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## flashfiend (May 24, 2010)

bigchelis said:


> I got a KIU Switch which I think has the resistance mod done at the switch too. I get a solid 5A at the tail with 3 topped off IMR C 26500 cells. No soft-start or anyother type of mod. The reflector is the KD V3 Smooth reflector. Oh, and the 8mm reflectors made no difference in output.
> 
> I had tested it in the past with a stock Mag 2D switch and the same reflector with the FM bi-pin kit and thats it. Everything else was repeated 100% the same, yet the OTF lumens are a lot more.
> 
> ...



So the later results are the true measurements for the Poor Man 1909?


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## mrartillery (Jun 28, 2010)

Big C, have you happened to do a test of the 1185 with with 3 of AW's 2600mAh 18650's? Curious to see how they stack up against the 26500's.


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## one2tim (Aug 20, 2010)

Hi, i just ordered a megalannium m6 with a fm1909 bulp from oveready, its listed as 2500 lumen, how can this be possible with the sphere reading of 1538 from the fm1909? Anyone can enlighten me?


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## Justin Case (Aug 20, 2010)

one2tim said:


> Hi, i just ordered a megalannium m6 with a fm1909 bulp from oveready, its listed as 2500 lumen, how can this be possible with the sphere reading of 1538 from the fm1909? Anyone can enlighten me?



1538 is the max value that the 10.5" sphere can measure.


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## bigchelis (Aug 20, 2010)

Justin Case said:


> 1538 is the max value that the 10.5" sphere can measure.


 
Now; I can measure up to 4500k OTF lumens 


The FM1909 will make over 2000 OTF lumens, but at 5.6A+ I need one of those JustinCAse Mags fully regulated to keep the output steady with no drop


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## Justin Case (Aug 20, 2010)

I have a JM-PhD-D1 4D Mag that runs an FM1909 regulated at 11.8V, powered by 5xIMR26500, and topped with an FM 2.5" Throwmaster. It is very nice.


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## bigchelis (Aug 21, 2010)

Hi all,

I got a Surefire C2 and KT-1 conversion kit; Which includes the N1 6V lamp. I had a set of 5 NiMH CR123 (kinda sized) 2/3A's and the current didnt go sky high like I expected. The lux was really really high compared to just 2 Surefire primaries....

Here are my results:


*Light____________________Lamp_____________ Cells____________ Lumens____ Time___5m lux__1m lux (cal)__* 

Surefire C2 w/KT-1________6V Stock N1_________2 Surefire CR123_________97.7______1 sec______460______11,500_____
__________________________________*________*______________________76.2______30 sec_________________________
*________*__________________________________________________ ______70.8______1 min__________________________
________________________*1.09A at the tail*___________________________69.2______2 min_________________________
__________________________________________________ _______________70.0______3 min_________________________
Surefire C2 w/KT-1________6V Stock N1__________5*2/3 NiMH___________155.4______1 sec______927______23,175_____
__________________________________*________*_____________________146.2______30 sec_________________________
*________*__________________________________________________ _____142.3______1 min__________________________
________________________*1.19A at the tail*__________________________138.5______2 min_________________________
__________________________________________________ ______________137.7______3 min_________________________


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## Bullzeyebill (Aug 21, 2010)

I am suprised that the lamp did not flash with 7v or so hitting it. SF's rechargeable solution for 6v LA's is 4 2/3A cells. Did you use zero resistance tailcap?

Bill


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## bigchelis (Aug 21, 2010)

Bullzeyebill said:


> I am suprised that the lamp did not flash with 7v or so hitting it. SF's rechargeable solution for 6v LA's is 4 2/3A cells. Did you use zero resistance tailcap?
> 
> Bill


 


NO Zero Tolerance used. I used a stock Surefire clicky because they have some resistance that I figured would help the lamp survive. The tint is really white with those 5 cells


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## one2tim (Aug 21, 2010)

Thank you for the answers about the megalannium 
Anyone knows what runtime i Can expect from 3x 18650 aw imr with the fm1909?


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## fivemega (Aug 21, 2010)

one2tim said:


> Thank you for the answers about the megalannium
> Anyone knows what runtime i Can expect from 3x 18650 aw imr with the fm1909?



*About 15 minutes.*


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## one2tim (Aug 21, 2010)

Ouch thank you, i better Stock up on imr's then


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