# Duracell Ion Core AA & AAA



## UnknownVT (Mar 13, 2014)

These are the new Ion Core Technology Pre-Charged batteries -
they seem to have replaced the "DuraLoop" Pre-Charged batteries

The packs in stores look like:


 



The AA Ion Core Pre-Charged is rated at 2400mAh - as others have noted - this is suspiciously like the Eneloop XX AA.
NLee the Engineer a prolific Amazon battery and charger reviewer in his review suggests the same thing.

The AAA Ion Core Pre-Charged is rated at 800mAh - so these cannot be the Eneloop XX AAA -
again as others have suggested, as well as NLee the Engineer in the same Amazon review -
these may be 2nd Generation Eneloop AAA.

I have 6 of the AA and 2 of the AAA Ion Core Pre-Charged.

4 of the AA were bought earlier and are already in service - but I did do an initial out of the pack discharge at 500mA (as close to 0.2C as my Maha/PowerEx C9000 would allow)
Allowing at least 1 hour rest I then charged these up using 1200mA (0.5C) the readings when the charger said "Done" (I do realize this is not the capacity - but a mere indicator)

# - Discharge - Charge
1 - 977mAh - 2358mAh
2 - 992mAh - 2368mAh
3 - 982mAh - 2374mAh
4 - 971mAh - 2259mAh

I acquired 2 more AA and 2 AAA this time I did the initial discharge out of the pack, rest - charged -
then ran a Refresh & Analyze cycle using 
AA 1200mA charge and 500mA discharge -
AAA 400mA charge and 200mA discharge

Size - # - Discharge - Charge - Capacity
AA - 5 - 999mAh - 2377mAh - 2425mAh
AA - 6 - 1079mAh - 2429mAh - 2430mAh

AAA - 1 - 519mAh - 668mAh - 794mAh
AAA - 2 - 520mAh - 658mAh - 791mAh

Pics:


 




both are marked as made in Japan 




rounded squarish buttons with crinkled chrome similar to Eneloops.

I think the general consensus is right that the AA are probably Eneloop XX clones 
and the AAA are probably 2nd generation Eneloops.

This would make the AA Ion Core Pre-Charged very good value, as they can be found for about $10 per 4 pack.


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## ChrisGarrett (Mar 14, 2014)

I've got two quads sitting, after a Maha C-9000 break in, so we'll see if I can get to a year with at least one of them. One quad is in a locked-out Klarus P2A and a Jetbeam BA-20, the other is sitting in a plastic case, singing the sirens' song.

It's tough ignoring it.

Chris


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## UnknownVT (Mar 14, 2014)

Admire your restraint - I couldn't buy batteries just to sit around ....

Here are the individual Amazon reviews by NLee the Engineer

Duracell Ion Core Pre-Charged AA

Duracell Ion Core Pre-Charged AAA

on the latter review of the AAA he has an image comparing the Ion Core AAA and 2nd gen Eneloop AAA
reproduced below:



Note: this is not my image but NLee the Engineer on Amazon
(re-saved and re-hosted)


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## ChrisGarrett (Mar 14, 2014)

Well, while I have a lot of AA/AAA gadgets here, I also have a lot of AA/AAA NiMH batteries and I just can't get through them all in any reasonable amount of time. I did a year long test with Imedions, Eneloop v.2s and GP ReCyKos and I still had a quad of each to fiddle with, among my other batteries.

Hell...I sit out on my patio at night smoking a cigar and running my lights, just so I can have some batteries/cells to charge back up later on.

I think the scientific term is 'saturated.'

So I let a quad sit for a year and post the results here, I'm really not missing anything, I guess is my point?

I've still got two sealed 8 packs of Glitters from 2012 that I don't know what to do with, lol.

Chris


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## RetroTechie (Mar 15, 2014)

Please clarify:

You're saturated with batteries?
Your batteries are saturated?
Your devices are saturated with batteries?
Or your batteries saturate your devices?

:thinking:


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## UnknownVT (Mar 15, 2014)

RetroTechie said:


> Please clarify:
> 
> You're saturated with batteries?
> Your batteries are saturated?
> ...



Innovative thinking.....
staying in the same vein - I would think

all of the above....

including ChrisGarrett saturating his batteries
although that probably doesn't bear 
thinking about....


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## UnknownVT (Aug 27, 2014)

FWIW - I got another 4 of these Duracell Ion-Core AA (Made in Japan marked on the battery) - 
because they were pretty reasonably priced at just under $9 shipped -
however I just saw they can be as low as just over $7 shipped on eBay....

Using the Maha/PowerEX C9000 (FW: 0H0FA) 
out of the pack discharge (@ 500mA) - 
charged (@ 1200mA) +2 hour top-up charge - minutes to charge in ()
1 hour rest, Refresh & Analyze (1200mA charge, 500mA discharge)

Results:
# initial charge R&A
7 1029 2446 (134) 2442
8 1020 2621 (144) 2432
9 1028 2529 (139) 2460
10 1010 2634 (145) 2431

The capacity from the Refresh & Analyze look very consistent and similar to the previous AA pair I reported on in the opening post.
The only thing that surprised me was the amount of charge reaching as high as 2634mAh(!) 
I thought for a moment that the R&A capacity might be in that region.

Does anyone know how to read the code embossed near the seam on the covering (similar to eneloops)?

1-4 : 30648676A2
5-6 : 30528676A1
7-10: 31398676LL

If it's of any use - back of the pack:


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## Poppy (Sep 3, 2014)

May I ask, which is a better battery?
I have some white top duracell 2000 ma "Stay Charged" that come up to 1.425 volts.
And some black tops duracell 2400 ma "Pre-charged" that come up to 1.379 volts.

Currently Toys R Us has both on sale... $9.99 for the Stay charged, and $8.99 for the Pre-charged. It's buy one, get one 40% off, which is what really makes it worth-while.


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## UnknownVT (Sep 3, 2014)

Poppy said:


> May I ask, which is a better battery?
> I have some white top duracell 2000 ma "Stay Charged" that come up to 1.425 volts.
> And some black tops duracell 2400 ma "Pre-charged" that come up to 1.379 volts.
> 
> Currently Toys R Us has both on sale... $9.99 for the Stay charged, and $8.99 for the Pre-charged. It's buy one, get one 40% off, which is what really makes it worth-while.



First, be sure the black top Duracells are the "*Ion Core*" as shown in the pics in the opening post.
If not, then get the white top Stay Charged.

However if they are Ion Core then there is a decision of sorts -

If you are likely to use the batteries frequently and expect to have to recharge them within a year - 
then the higher capacity *Ion Core* (which seem to be re-badged Eneloop XX) are a bargain.

If you are more likely to have the batteries sitting around and do not expect to have to recharge for more than a year - 
then the Stay Charged may be the way to go -

BUT there may be a slight wrinkle - 
see if you can check the white top Stay Charged if they are Made in Japan -
on the pack - and if at all possible on the battery itself (may have to squint through the blister pack to find one that may be oriented the right way) -
If they are not made in Japan - then go for the *Ion Core*......

The voltages you report - are they just for open circuit - ie: no load - 
although it is an indication of sorts - it may or may not be an indication of how the battery behaves under load.

Unless you have devices that are very voltage level sensitive then the voltages may not be that significant.

However if you do have those then try to measure the voltages under-load say about 1 Amp -
use a 1 ohm 10 watt resistor between the terminals and then measure the voltage - 
this is the voltage under load at about ~1.2 Amps.
*
EDIT to ADD* -

I just did a search on toysRus.com
and I see it is the *Ion Core* that is @ $8.99
and this is the Stay Charged @ $9.99


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## RI Chevy (Sep 3, 2014)

At least the tests show consistency! I have a few packs of the Ion Core cells going in the mix. I really can't tell the difference between the 2400 mAh "Ion Core" and the 2000 mAh "Stay Charged". I charge them with a Lacrosse BC700. Every single one of my Duraloops (Both older and newer) have been outstanding as far as performance goes. I do not have any Eneloops to compare them too.


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## UnknownVT (Sep 3, 2014)

RI Chevy said:


> At least the tests show consistency! I have a few packs of the Ion Core cells going in the mix. I really can't tell the difference between the 2400 mAh "Ion Core" and the 2000 mAh "Stay Charged". I charge them with a Lacrosse BC700. Every single one of my Duraloops (Both older and newer) have been outstanding as far as performance goes. I do not have any Eneloops to compare them too.



This is indeed good to hear -

BUT for a while Duracell sold their Pre-Charged 2000mAh rechargeable batteries that were made in China instead of Japan and with black tops instead of the original white tops -
there was enough difference that people who originally nicknamed the white topped made in Japan - "DuracLoops" - 
no longer called the black top (2000mAh Pre-Charged) by that nickname.

From your post - albeit a limited sample - it may seem that Duracell is issuing LSD batteries that are made in Japan - ie: re-badged Eneloops
Certainly currently the *Ion Core AA* seem to be re-badged Eneloop XX - 
which makes them a real bargain.


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## Poppy (Sep 3, 2014)

ThankYou Gentlemen for your quick and thorough responses.

Yes. I presented "no load" voltages.
I just ran out to RadioShack and got the recommended resistor.

With jumper wires, and magnets, I attached the resistor to the positive and negative ends of the batteries and took before and after voltage readings.

And for clarification, the white tops I have were "Made in Japan" I got them when Target was selling them off.

All of my duraloops were made in Japan, even the green tops set that I have around here somewhere.

OK... voltages.
White top "Stay charged" 2000 ma 1.422 no load.... 1.414 with load
Black top Iron Core 2400 ma 1.378 no load.... 1.368 with load


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## UnknownVT (Sep 3, 2014)

Poppy said:


> And for clarification, the white tops I have were "Made in Japan" I got them when Target was selling them off.
> 
> All of my duraloops were made in Japan, even the green tops set that I have around here somewhere.
> 
> ...



Good stuff Poppy - so quick too - 
did you already have your running shoes on to get to Radio Shack and back and to measure those voltages -
I am impressed - this conclusively proves 
we only get better with age!

OK the main deciding factors for you would be - 
if you use your batteries frequently and are going to expect to recharge them within a year
and think the extra capacity is useful (most people, including me, think so)

Then buy the Ion Core (they are cheaper for more capacity! basically re-badged Eneloop XX)

Only if you are likely to leave the batteries for over a year or more -
or put another way expect to only recharge them after more than a year - 
OR if you have devices that are voltage level dependent -
then get Stay Charged.

Now we might just be splitting hairs -

The Eneloop XX has improved since its first gen to hold their charge about as well as the original 1st gen Eneloop -

I am extremely grateful for *ChibiM* thread - Overview: All eneloop batteries; 2005-2014
where I borrowed his chart (re-hosted)




To me this shows the 2nd gen Eneloop XX and later seems to hold their charge about the same as the 1st gen original standard Eneloops.

I only have original 1st gen Eneloops and I assume DuraLoops and they all have, and still, give sterling service.

So I am extremely pleased with my purchase of these Duracell Ion Core AA 
(I am making the assumption that my Duracell Ion Core AAs are re-badged 2nd gen or later Eneloop XX - since my Ion Core packs say 2013).


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## RI Chevy (Sep 3, 2014)

UnknownVT said:


> This is indeed good to hear -
> 
> BUT for a while Duracell sold their Pre-Charged 2000mAh rechargeable batteries that were made in China instead of Japan and with black tops instead of the original white tops -
> there was enough difference that people who originally nicknamed the white topped made in Japan - "DuracLoops" -
> ...



I should have specified that all of my Duraloops are white topped.  I hand picked them all prior to buying them based on the excellent information garnered from the members of this site. :thumbsup: My Ion Core 2400's are black topped (2013), but they do state made in Japan.


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## UnknownVT (Sep 3, 2014)

RI Chevy said:


> I should have specified that all of my Duraloops are white topped.  I hand picked them all prior to buying them based on the excellent information garnered from the members of this site. :thumbsup: My Ion Core 2400's are black topped (2013), but they do state made in Japan.



It was only the 2000mAh Duracell Pre-Charged that had to be white top and made in Japan to be "real" DuraLoops.

As far as I know the Ion Core AA had black tops as does the Eneloop XX (which they are a re-badge of), 
and all made in Japan.


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## ronniepudding (Sep 3, 2014)

Thanks all for the PSA and research -- I've been meaning to try out some Eneloop XX batteries, but couldn't justify the extra cost. This is just the excuse I needed. On my way now to ToysRus for the first time since I was a kid =))


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## Poppy (Sep 4, 2014)

ronniepudding said:


> Thanks all for the PSA and research -- I've been meaning to try out some Eneloop XX batteries, but couldn't justify the extra cost. This is just the excuse I needed. On my way now to ToysRus for the first time since I was a kid =))


LOL... wait... when you are a grandparent... you and Geoffrey will be on a first name basis


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## ronniepudding (Sep 4, 2014)

Poppy said:


> LOL... wait... when you are a grandparent... you and Geoffrey will be on a first name basis



I've got a four year old daughter, and thus far we've managed to avoid a visit to a big box toy store.  While I was picking up the batteries last night, I was imagining what her reaction would be... Screams of joy, running through the aisles asking for this and that, etc.


Sent from my iPhone using Candlepowerforums


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## UnknownVT (Sep 4, 2014)

ronniepudding said:


> I've got a four year old daughter, and thus far we've managed to avoid a visit to a big box toy store.  While I was picking up the batteries last night, I was imagining what her reaction would be... Screams of joy, running through the aisles asking for this and that, etc.



... and for any AA battery operated toys - 
they'll last a L-O-N-G time with guilt-free power and be ready to use/play with....
better buy an extra pack of the Duracell Ion Core AA......

Remember, it's only the Ion Core AA that are re-badged Eneloop XX
the AAA size are suspected re-badged regular Eneloops.


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## RI Chevy (Sep 4, 2014)

I went to Toys-R-Us today. They had plenty of batteries, ........EXCEPT for rechargeable AA battery packs. They were all out. The only ones that were all out. Go figure.


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## UnknownVT (Sep 4, 2014)

RI Chevy said:


> I went to Toys-R-Us today. They had plenty of batteries, ........EXCEPT for rechargeable AA battery packs. They were all out. The only ones that were all out. Go figure.



It would seem that there are people who realized the Ion Core AA are re-badged Eneloop XX .... $9 vs $20+

However all is not lost - fleaBay has them @ <$9 shipped -
just search for Duracell Ion Core AA and then sort by lowest price.

But be sure the listing chosen are the Ion Core AA and 4 count -
there's where I bought my most recent quad from.

(no local sales tax, no gas .... prob a better deal)


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## ChrisGarrett (Sep 4, 2014)

Walmart has them, Target did have them packed with a D1000 charger a year back, but they've moved to Energizer NiMH batteries in the blister packs, it seems to me.

Worth a try. 

Paying $10.99 plus tax is worth it to me to have them quickly in my grubby little fingers.

Chris


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## Poppy (Sep 4, 2014)

I believe that Walmart and Target, each have a price match guarantee. K-mart does not.
So if you go to either of the first with a copy of the ad, or on your cell phone, they should match the Toys R Us price.


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## RI Chevy (Sep 4, 2014)

Thanks for all of the info. I got some at walmart. I used a $1.50 coupon as well. :thumbsup:


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## ROBERT29 (Sep 6, 2014)

ChrisGarrett said:


> Walmart has them, Target did have them packed with a D1000 charger a year back, but they've moved to Energizer NiMH batteries in the blister packs, it seems to me.
> 
> Worth a try.
> 
> ...



Maybe a little off topic, but how do Energizer NiMh AA-AAA cells compare to Duracells (in quality and performance)? I get the impression the Duracells are better.


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## UnknownVT (Sep 6, 2014)

ROBERT29 said:


> Maybe a little off topic, but how do Energizer NiMh AA-AAA cells compare to Duracells (in quality and performance)? I get the impression the Duracells are better.



Energizer Recharge gets very mixed reviews - 
but before I go into any further details here's my very simple minded take -

Energizer rechargeable quality "questionable"/indeterminate
vs. 
Duracell Pre-Charged Ion Core AA (subject of this thread) = re-badged Eneloop XX AA (as low as $9/4)

Eneloop has the highest reputation of all LSD (Low Self-Discharge) batteries.
Eneloop XX are the higher capacity Eneloops.

The choice to me is a no brainer.

Now the details - I base these mainly on the reviews of NLee the Engineer on Amazon.
Review of Energizer Power Plus NiMH AA Rechargeable Batteries, 4-count (2300 mAh, Pre-Charged) 
is a reasonable review but with absolutely nothing that would make me even consider them over these Duracell Ion Core AA.

However his Review of the similarly listed Energizer Power Plus NiMH AA Rechargeable Batteries, 8-count (2300 mAh, Pre-Charged) 
said:


> Based on the above observations, I can conclude that those 'New' Energizer cells are just ordinary NiMH cells with lower capacity. They are not the LSD (low-self-discharge) type pioneered by SANYO eneloop. This is very disappointing, because other name-brand battery makers have already introduced LSD products similar to eneloop, such as the Rayovac Hybrid and Duracell Pre Charged. In contrast, the Energizer Bunny simply 'rolled back' its battery technology to circa 2004.



Like I said reviews are mixed - like Duracell - Energizer seem very reluctant to clearly distinguish and specify their batteries - which leads to this kind of confusion - even for experienced reviewers like NLee the Engineer.

So I would simply not take the risk when clearly the highly reputed/top rated Eneloops are easily identified,
and Duracell Pre-Charged have been shown to be re-badged Eneloops (with all the identifying caveats) 
and these Duracell Ion Core AA have been shown to be Eneloop XX which are higher capacity LSDs with about the same charge holding as the original 1st gen Eneloops.


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## ChrisGarrett (Sep 6, 2014)

ROBERT29 said:


> Maybe a little off topic, but how do Energizer NiMh AA-AAA cells compare to Duracells (in quality and performance)? I get the impression the Duracells are better.



I've used a few quads of the green/foil/chrome AA/AAA Energizer 2300/850 (900?) Made In Japan rechargeable batteries for many years, even breaking in two new AA quads a few months back and they work well and are LSD in nature.

I'm not saying that I'd buy them over the the Iron Core Duracells now, because they're a bit more money, however I believe them to be good stuff and if that's all that you can find, they're not exactly chopped liver.

Be aware that Energizer has moved to a different lime green/foil wrapper for some different batteries, which aren't the same quality as the above.

Chris


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## ROBERT29 (Sep 6, 2014)

ChrisGarrett said:


> I've used a few quads of the green/foil/chrome AA/AAA Energizer 2300/850 (900?) Made In Japan rechargeable batteries for many years, even breaking in two new AA quads a few months back and they work well and are LSD in nature.
> 
> I'm not saying that I'd buy them over the the Iron Core Duracells now, because they're a bit more money, however I believe them to be good stuff and if that's all that you can find, they're not exactly chopped liver.
> 
> ...



I'm guessing the "green/foil/chrome AA/AAA Energizer 2300/850" is the Power Plus line, and the "different lime green/foil wrapper" is the Universal line designed for "frequent recharging".


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## SubLGT (Nov 24, 2014)

ToysRUs is still showing these (AA Ion Core) online at $8.99 for a 4pack. I am going to price match tomorrow at Walmart. 

P.S. Walmart restricts their online price matching to the following vendors:

*Online retailers are limited to: Academy.com, Amazon.com, Autozone.com, Babiesrus.com, Basspro.com, Bedbathandbeyond.com, Bestbuy.com, Cabelas.com, ****ssportinggoods.com, Dollargeneral.com, Familydollar.com, Homedepot.com, Jcpenny.com, Kmart.com, Kohls.com, Lowes.com, Michaels.com, Newegg.com, Officedepot.com, Oreillyauto.com, Pepboys.com, Petco.com, Petsmart.com, Sears.com, SportsAuthority.com, Staples.com, Target.com, Tigerdirect.com, Toysrus.com, Walgreens.com, Walmart.com


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## UnknownVT (Nov 24, 2014)

SubLGT said:


> ToysRUs is still showing these (AA Ion Core) online at $8.99 for a 4pack. I am going to price match tomorrow at Walmart.



Good to see these Ion-Core AA (suspected re-badged Eneloop XX gen2 or later) can still be had at bargain prices -
eBay still has listings at $8.99/4pk with free shipping - 
ie: no sales tax and no gas wastage.

best,


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## ChrisGarrett (Nov 25, 2014)

ROBERT29 said:


> I'm guessing the "green/foil/chrome AA/AAA Energizer 2300/850" is the Power Plus line, and the "different lime green/foil wrapper" is the Universal line designed for "frequent recharging".



The chrome foil with green batteries have 'made in Japan' on them and are a low self discharge type. They are 2300mAh and 850mAh for the AAAs.

I don't believe any of the other Energizer (lime green/silver) are made in Japan.

Chris


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## MidnightDistortions (Nov 25, 2014)

I have some of those Energizers 2300 Recharge power plus that are dated Jan 2013 and was charged. They are in need of refreshing which i plan on doing when the year ends/new year. I wish Duracell would put a manufacture date on their rechargeables, not sure if that code, serial number or whatever it is has some sort of date on it but i can't tell how old they are.


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## ChrisGarrett (Nov 25, 2014)

MidnightDistortions said:


> I have some of those Energizers 2300 Recharge power plus that are dated Jan 2013 and was charged. They are in need of refreshing which i plan on doing when the year ends/new year. I wish Duracell would put a manufacture date on their rechargeables, not sure if that code, serial number or whatever it is has some sort of date on it but i can't tell how old they are.



I like the 2300 silver foils and I've had good luck with both the AAs and the AAAs over the years. I've worn out a few quads of both, but I'm now using three quads of AAs with the code: 'CO 6-10 LR' which I got probably back in 2010 and let sit in their blister packs until I broke them out and started using them.

I think that '6-10' might be June 2010.

Chris


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## SubLGT (Nov 25, 2014)

SubLGT said:


> ToysRUs is still showing these (AA Ion Core) online at $8.99 for a 4pack. I am going to price match tomorrow at Walmart………..



I was able to get a price match at my local Walmart today, after showing them a printout from the toysrus web page. But the cashier did pull out a 4" magnifying glass, and took a _very_ close look at my color printout, as if it were a counterfeit $1000 bill. :laughing:


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## MidnightDistortions (Nov 25, 2014)

ChrisGarrett said:


> I like the 2300 silver foils and I've had good luck with both the AAs and the AAAs over the years. I've worn out a few quads of both, but I'm now using three quads of AAs with the code: 'CO 6-10 LR' which I got probably back in 2010 and let sit in their blister packs until I broke them out and started using them.
> 
> I think that '6-10' might be June 2010.
> 
> Chris



I like the AAA Energizers i got in 2006, good to know that Energizer does have some quality rechargeable batteries. I do take Eneloops over any other brand but Duracells are in 2nd place while Energizers get 3rd. So far the AA Energizers i got work pretty well. I am pretty easy on them so they should get plenty of use.


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## SubLGT (Nov 25, 2014)

Today I removed the 4 batteries from my newly purchased package of AA ion core Duracells, and put them in the C9000 charger for a 400mA discharge cycle. The average capacity was 1043mAh, which is 43.5% of 2400mAh. The package is dated 2014.


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## ChrisGarrett (Nov 26, 2014)

SubLGT said:


> Today I removed the 4 batteries from my newly purchased package of AA ion core Duracells, and put them in the C9000 charger for a 400mA discharge cycle. The average capacity was 1043mAh, which is 43.5% of 2400mAh. The package is dated 2014.



We think that Eneloops leave the factory at a 70% charge, so you lost about 26% if that's correct. It could be even less than 70%.

Do a break in and see what you see.

My first four out of the pack read 1.298v, 1.298v, 1.297v and 1.297v. Using a 200mA discharge, I got 1158mAh, 1155mAh, 1150mAh and 1147mAh. After breaking in, I got 2502mAh, 2473mAh, 2455mAh and 2486mAh.

For my second quad, I failed to record the initial voltages, but got 1104mAh, 1096mAh, 1086mAh and 1091mAh, so a bit less than the first quad.

After breaking them in, I got 2486mAh, 2462mAh, 2432mAh and 2461mAh.

This last quad has been sitting for almost 11 months and I'll do a discharge on 1/5/15, at the year mark to let everybody know what amount was lost over that year.

Chris


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## Viking (Nov 26, 2014)

ChrisGarrett said:


> This last quad has been sitting for almost 11 months and I'll do a discharge on 1/5/15, at the year mark to let everybody know what amount was lost over that year.



looking forward to that


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## UnknownVT (Nov 26, 2014)

ChrisGarrett said:


> We think that Eneloops leave the factory at a 70% charge, so you lost about 26% if that's correct. It could be even less than 70%.
> 
> Do a break in and see what you see.
> 
> ...



It appears that the Duracell Ion-Core AA (re-badged Eneloop XX) may come pre-charged at around 50% of capacity? 
I tested the initial remaining capacities of 10x AA - and they hovered around 1,000mAh (Maha C9000 @ 0.2C = ~500mA discharge).

NLee the Engineer over at Amazon reviews got around 1,220mAh (he uses a LaCross BC1000),
[FWIW he also tested the Eneloop XX and got about 1,000mAh initial out of the pack capacity]

Your own readings were averaging around 1,120mAh (200mA discharge)


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## MarioJP (Nov 26, 2014)

I just got these batteries on sale. Bought 2 packs. Are you guys are saying these cells are eneloop XX? How can this be if Enloop pro/XX are expensive. Too good to be true?


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## ChrisGarrett (Nov 26, 2014)

MarioJP said:


> I just got these batteries on sale. Bought 2 packs. Are you guys are saying these cells are eneloop XX? How can this be if Enloop pro/XX are expensive. Too good to be true?



Have you ever seen Sanyo Eneloops, or Panasonic Eneloops in a brick and mortar store, before?

I'm in Miami and travel a lot to Los Angeles and San Francisco and except for a Wolf Camera store and Costco, I've never seen them sold at retail. The Eneloops really have no recognition, nor do they have ANY real market penetration to speak of, outside of boutique flashlight guys, some tech geeks and perhaps some astute photographers.

And Panasonic and Sanyo are two highly visible and trusted names here in America, so it's not that.

Now, put a Duracell wrapper on your XX/Pros and Gen. 2 Eneloops and stick blister packs in every freakin' Target, Walmart, K-Mart, Home Depot, Toys-R-Us, Walgreens and CVS drug stores in the country and you have a lot of units being sold at retail.

Not too hard to cut Duracell a price break, so they can sell them for cheaper than we'd buy the XX/Pros.

When they first hit the US market a few years back, $20 for a quad of XX/Pro AAs was a good price and they've dropped a bit, but if the Iron Cores are in fact Eneloop XX/Pros, then $8.99-$10.99 is a pretty substantial savings on even a few packs, compared to buying Panasonic wrapped batteries.

Chris


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## SubLGT (Nov 26, 2014)

SubLGT said:


> Today I removed the 4 batteries from my newly purchased package of AA ion core Duracells, and put them in the C9000 charger for a 400mA discharge cycle. The average capacity was 1043mAh, which is 43.5% of 2400mAh. The package is dated 2014.



After a 1.2A charge, and a 300mA discharge, my capacities were 2462, 2497, 2498, and 2504 mAh.


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## MidnightDistortions (Nov 26, 2014)

ChrisGarrett said:


> Have you ever seen Sanyo Eneloops, or Panasonic Eneloops in a brick and mortar store, before?
> 
> I'm in Miami and travel a lot to Los Angeles and San Francisco and except for a Wolf Camera store and Costco, I've never seen them sold at retail. The Eneloops really have no recognition, nor do they have ANY real market penetration to speak of, outside of boutique flashlight guys, some tech geeks and perhaps some astute photographers.
> 
> ...




Duracell sells the rebrand Eneloops for less mostly because i think of their charger which is not a bad charger though i am used to having the refresh cycle/break in, LCD screen and being able to charge the batteries individually, ideally though that charger gets to be problematic if you got an odd set of batteries in need of recharging. Duracell knows consumers will replace the batteries after several years (or lose them somewhere) so the company still makes quite a bit of money out of the batteries. Plus i noticed the 2400mAh Duracells come out to a similar price to the regular Eneloops. But like you have said, it's easier to sell Duracell or Energizer batteries than it is to sell some Eneloops that people have never heard of. I'm trying to get people on Eneloops so maybe more recognition for them will happen and a few stores might carry them like Target or Sears. Also showing the smart chargers gets some people interested as well .

I love ringing people up at work that have any rechargeable batteries in their carts, i always recognize that:thanks: and that's what counts!!


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## MarioJP (Nov 26, 2014)

I still see people buy alkalines instead of rechargeables. This is 2014. I guess they don't mind when these cells leaks and ruins their devices.


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## ChrisGarrett (Nov 26, 2014)

SubLGT said:


> After a 1.2A charge, and a 300mA discharge, my capacities were 2462, 2497, 2498, and 2504 mAh.



Right in line with XX/Pros.

I've got 'til 1/05/15 before I discharge this quad and see what's actually left in the tank.

Chris


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## hiuintahs (Nov 26, 2014)

I got 4 Duracell Ion Core AA batteries with a purchase awhile back. I didn't go out of my way to buy them but was curious about their performance. First of all, my experience with Duracell NiMh batteries from several years back wasn't very good. That was back in the day when Energizer was having Sanyo make their NiMh rechargeable batteries and before Eneloop really took off. I don't know who made those rechargeable Duracells but they worked horrible. So you can see my skepticism. 2 weeks after I would charge them and just left them on the bench...........they were flat.

OK so this is what I did. I charged up an Eneloop (2000mAh) and one of these new Duracell Ion Core (2400mAh) on the same charger and then I let them sit on the bench outside the charger for one month without being used. Then I tested them with a Sunwayman V11R (with AA extender) on max output to see if there was much self discharge. What I found out is that these Duracell Ion Cores are pretty dang good. I think the premise is that they might be Eneloop XX's?

The run time test was done with an Extech HD450 data logging light meter and my homemade light box........so the reference point for both tests is the same.........the only difference thus being the batteries.


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## Bright+ (Nov 29, 2014)

Does anyone have the performance data on these after a full charge and sitting around for about a month and discharged at 1A in sessions? 

Something like a camera can sit around unused for like a month, but if you decide you want to take a bunch of pictures one day, you want it to be ready to use.


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## magellan (Nov 29, 2014)

Can't answer the 1A session question but my experience has been that these are comparable to the Eneloops as far as holding a charge goes.



Bright+ said:


> Does anyone have the performance data on these after a full charge and sitting around for about a month and discharged at 1A in sessions?
> 
> Something like a camera can sit around unused for like a month, but if you decide you want to take a bunch of pictures one day, you want it to be ready to use.


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## UnknownVT (Dec 2, 2014)

Bright+ said:


> discharged at 1A in sessions?



I'll attempt an inferred answer - if we look at the graph posted by 
*hiuintahs* in post #46 above in this thread -
the Eneloop curve lasts just under 1 hour by the time the light output becomes insignificant.
borrowed, re-hosted and posted here:




This hints at the current being draw at about 2Amps -

Now if we look at the eneloop discharge graph posted by 
*SilverFox* in post #1 of Thread: NiMh Battery Shoot Out -
which I'll borrow re-host and post here:



The green curve is the 2Amp discharge and the time was 54.2mins.

So this confirms that the Sunwayman V11R (with AA extender) on max output used by *hiuintahs* draws about on average 2Amps -

Now look at the other curve on *hiuintahs* graph of the Duracell Ion-Core AA - 
it not only lasted longer under the same conditions 
but over the entire period of time it gave higher light output than the regular eneloop.

Using 50% of initial steady state relative brightness level (about 4500 units on vertical axis) regular Eneloop lasted about 50mins and the Duracell Ion-Core AA lasted about 60mins - which is 20% longer
if we use 2000mAh as the regular Eneloop capacity, this means the Duracell Ion-Core AA capacity would be approx 2400mAh - 
that is not even taking into account the light output was higher over the entire period which ought to mean >20% total energy/power.

So I would infer that the Duracell Ion-Core under approx 2Amp draw conditions out-performs a regular Eneloop - with 20% more capacity under practical usage conditions.


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## UnknownVT (Dec 2, 2014)

*Prices* -

eBay has some fabulous prices -
many from earlier days are suspicious of fleaBay listings -
but my take: 
both eBay and the most common payment method PayPal - 
offer protection on any purchase.

I have used both to satisfactorily settle disputes, or recover monies.

There is a trick to finding Duracell Ion-Core eBay listings -
the obvious search for "Duracell Ion-Core" AA or AAA
then sort by Price + Shipping: lowest first
will find listings.

But may miss some other lower prices -
broaden the search to "Duracell Rechargeable" AA or AAA -
yes, this will list a lot that are not Ion-Core - 
but there are many Ion-Core listings that do not have the words Ion-Core in the heading 
so are missed in the first "obvious" search.

I use the pictures to identify the Ion-Core listings 
and then read the description carefully to ensure the item is the Duracell Ion-Core.

Using this I have found listings that were Duracell (Ion-Core) at:

AA: $12.50 +Free shipping for 2x 4pack = $6.25/4-pk AA
and 
AAA: $10.50 +Free shipping for 2x 4pack = $5.25/4-pk AAA

The description and photos confirm these were Ion-Core AA and AAA

At this time of posting: 
AA have just 2 available
AAA 6 available

Hint: search on "Duracell ProPay" -
this vendor uses ProPay for payment -
I had never heard of ProPay before - 
but I checked, ProPay is a legitimate and eBay approved payment method.
(I have no affiliation with the listings or vendor)

Good luck.


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## hiuintahs (Dec 3, 2014)

Good analysis UnknownVT :thumbsup:.

After seeing the performance of the Ion-core AA compared to the Eneloop, I wanted some AAA Ion-cores but upon further reading of "NLee The Engineer" with an Amazon review............he didn't think the AAA's were rebranded Eneloop XX's........but rather just the regular Eneloops.

"'Ion Core' = either Sanyo XX (AA) or Sanyo eneloop (AAA)"

So I elected to go with the Eneloop XX AAA's or I guess they are now Panasonic Pros. I agree, you have to know what you are buying when it comes to the Duracell rechargeable batteries.

Edit: whoops, didn't realize you were the original poster.......and already figured out that the Ion core AAA's were not Eneloop XX's!


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## UnknownVT (Dec 6, 2014)

UnknownVT said:


> *Prices* - eBay has some fabulous prices -
> ...I have found listings that were Duracell (Ion-Core) at:
> AA: $12.50 +Free shipping for 2x 4pack = $6.25/4-pk AA
> AAA: $10.50 +Free shipping for 2x 4pack = $5.25/4-pk AAA
> Hint: search on "Duracell ProPay"



Those price are so good that I bought and just received 2x 4-pk Ion Core AA.

They're real -




Made in Japan




Embossed code:



If anyone knows how to decode these - please share?

Back of pack (both the same):



these are marked © 2014

I've already done initial out of the pack capacity - 
all the initial open-circuit voltages were 1.29V.
Initial under-load voltages (reading from charger discharge mode):
Maha/PowerEX C9000 (#11-14) 1.20V
Opus BT-C3100 v2.1 (#15-18) 1.27V
(notice the difference in charger readings)

# mAh
11 1014 }
12 1019 } using Maha/PowerEX C9000
13 1023 } discharge @ 500mA
14 1020 }

15 1043 }
16 1085 } using Opus BT-C3100 v2.1
17 1057 } discharge @ 500mA
18 1108 }

The initial remaining capacity using the same discharge current of 500mA (~= 0.2C) 
seems to be different for the different chargers.

Using test/refresh & analyze cycle for their first full capacity -

# mAh
11 2363 }
12 2384 } using Maha/PowerEX C9000
13 2373 } charge 1200mA, discharge 500mA
14 2342 }

15 2443 }
16 2490 } using Opus BT-C3100 v2.1
17 2579 } charge 1000mA, discharge 700mA (Note: Opus settings cannot be varied)
18 2510 }

Again noticeably different capacities from the different chargers.
Also set # 11-14 1st full capacity using the Maha C9000 seems lower than my other Ion-Core AAs (packs marked ©2013) which were tested in the same charger/analyzer.


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## SubLGT (Dec 6, 2014)

Regarding the date code, 4114------- might mean week 41 of the year 2014. Just a guess.


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## UnknownVT (Dec 6, 2014)

SubLGT said:


> Regarding the date code, 4114------- might mean week 41 of the year 2014. Just a guess.


Cool! seems like a sensible guess.
But unfortunately it doesn't seem to apply to my previous Ion-Core AAs:

1-4 : 30648676A2
5-6 : 30528676A1
7-10: 31398676LL

Thanks


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## MidnightDistortions (Dec 6, 2014)

I have 2013 on the package of my set of Ion Core Duracells. Got them in August of this year. Never could figure out the date codes, the batteries i have all start off at 319. It's nice to know at least the package gives out the year.


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## UnknownVT (Dec 7, 2014)

MidnightDistortions said:


> I have 2013 on the package of my set of Ion Core Duracells. Got them in August of this year. Never could figure out the date codes, the batteries i have all start off at 319. It's nice to know at least the package gives out the year.


Although this may seem to be the case for now - the copyright year - I think really is only for the package design change.

If there is no change in package design we could be stuck with whatever the most recent change year.

Although we can't seem to make head or tail out of the embossed code - 
if they contain a date of some sort - 
that would be the most reliable.

Failing that the package copyright - seems like the best we can do -
but there's nothing preventing very old stock being packaged in the most current pack......

Looking at the 18 Ion-Core AA I have they are:

1-4 : 30648676A2
5-6 : 30528676A1
7-10: 31398676LL
11-18: 41148676ON (is that an "O" or zero?)

Out of the sample of 18 the numerals seem to end in 8676

So perhaps the first 4 numerals are the significant?
The first numeral might be the last digit of the year?
If that is right - then what are the next 3 digits?
What about the trailing characters? are they alpha for the second to last - 
my most recent is kind of indeterminate it could be an "O" or zero - here's the pic again:





Hopefully it is not adding confusion - the only 2 Ion-Core AAA I have - seem to have similar codes -




codes for these AAA = 30518676AN
The packs were © 2013 so starting with 3 appears to be consistent, so far....
and the last 4 numerals were also 8676 like in the AAs.

Any ideas?


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## MidnightDistortions (Dec 7, 2014)

UnknownVT, it's difficult to tell but i wonder if '3' means 2013 and the last 3 digits might be the day (counting days, not months or weeks) it was manufactured. Also the last 2 digits might just be letters so that looks like an O to me, which i'm guessing is reserved for the production code.


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## UnknownVT (Dec 7, 2014)

MidnightDistortions said:


> UnknownVT, it's difficult to tell but i wonder if '3' means 2013 and the last 3 digits might be the day (counting days, not months or weeks) it was manufactured. Also the last 2 digits might just be letters so that looks like an O to me, which i'm guessing is reserved for the production code.



Thanks, those have been my thoughts too - 
first numeral is the last digit of the year 3=2013, 4=2014
and the next 3 numerals might be the day number.

We can check this "guess" as the number cannot exceed 365 or 366 (leap year)
so if anyone has a number of the second 3 digits >= 366 please let us know to dispel this assumption.

The last two characters can contain numbers as in the codes of my first 6 Ion-Core AA:
1-4 : 30648676A2
5-6 : 30528676A1

That's why I was uncertain of my latest batch of 8 Ion-Core AA code having an "O" or zero
please look at the photo to discern - 



and not my typing of the characters, as I typed the letter "O".

FWIW - here are the two Ion-Core AA from my first 2 batches with 0 (zeros) as part of the first 4 numerals 
(to compare with that indeterminate "O" or zero from my latest batch above)
and the ending/last characters are numerals:




Thanks, and any other suggestions?


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## UnknownVT (Dec 8, 2014)

UnknownVT said:


> Those price are so good that I bought and just received 2x 4-pk Ion Core AA.
> They're real -



I also bought and just received 2x 4-pk of the Ion-Core AAA. (ordered off eBay Dec/1 @ $10.50 ie: $5.25/4-pk AAA)
Please remember only the Ion-Core AA are reputed to be re-badged Eneloop XX
The Ion-Core AAA are "merely" re-badged regular Eneloops 2nd gen or later.

Again they are real -
Packages:




Marked on the batteries made in Japan:




Embossed codes:




Codes:
32858676HF
40938676Y4

If our best guess so far is the first digital is the year as in 3=2013, 4=2014
and the next 3 digital the day of the year -
it seems one pack is fairly late 2013 and other is 2014.
(Please note: not definitive but merely our best _*Guesses*_)

But the back of the packs were the same:



both were: © 2013.
(this shows that the year on the pack may not truly reflect the year of manufacture of the actual batteries inside -
that is if our assumption of the first digit being the year is right.)

These batteries are being discharged right now to get the initial out-of the pack remaining charge.

I forgot to take the open-circuit voltages but the under-load voltage as initially shown by the charger/analyzers I am using
(@ 200mA discharge) were

#s Initial under-load voltage for discharge @ 200mA)
3-6 - 1.16-1.17V (code: 32858676HF)
7-9 - 1.27V (code: 40938676Y4)
10 - 1.29V (code: 40938676Y4)

Again significant difference between the Maha/PowerEX C9000 (#3-6) 
and the Opus BT-C3100 v2.1 (#6-9 - note: no #10 yet, as I only use 3 slots on this charger)

So far:

Initial out of the pack capacity (discharge @ 200mA =~ 0.2C)

# mAh
3 516 }
4 519 } using Maha/PowerEX C9000
5 518 } discharge @ 200mA
6 517 }

7 378 }
8 399 } using Opus BT-C3100 v2.1
9 383 } discharge @ 200mA
10 384}

Note: 
#3-6 code: 32858676HF
#7-10 code: 40938676Y4

Notice how much more initial out of pack capacity the first set #3-6 (code: 32858676HF) has over #7-10 (code: 40938676Y4)
In test of my most recent 8x Ion-Core AA in post #52 above - the Maha/PowerEX C9000 gave slightly lower readings, than the Opus BT-C3100 v2.1 for the same code AA's.

Because of possible difference in readings between my two charger/analyzers - 
I've sort of mixed it up for these Ion-Core AAA for the full capacity test -
for Maha/PowerEX C9000 refresh & analyze on #3-5 and #9 (different embossed codes).
intend to use the Test cycle of the Opus on #7,8,10 and #6 for the full capacity.

*Update*: (note: the text below is pasted from post #67)

First full capacity test:

# mAh (full Capacity)
3 749 } 
4 758 } using Maha/PowerEX C9000 R&A charge 400mA, discharge 200mA
5 753 }
6 767 > using Opus BT-C3100 v2.1 Test mode charge 500mA, discharge 500mA (cannot vary Opus settings)

7 836 }
8 902 } using Opus BT-C3100 v2.1 Test mode charge 500mA, discharge 500mA (cannot vary Opus settings)
10 825 }
9* 829 > using Maha/PowerEX C9000 R&A charge 400mA, discharge 200mA

It seems the second set #7-10 (code: 40938676Y4) measures noticeably higher full capacity than the first set #3-6 (code: 32858676HF)

Set #3-6 (code: 32858676HF) results are a bit lower but seems to be in line with my very first 2 Ion-Core AAA (code: 30518676AN) (see post #1)

============================================
_*SPECULATION*: (Please note: this is not anything definitive)_

Based on the assumption the embossed codes have some relation with date of production
(best guess: the first digit is the year as in 3=2013, 4=2014;
the next 3 digits may be the day in the year.)

So my first 2 AAA - 
#1-2 (code: 30518676AN) were 2013, day 51

these most recent 2x 4-pks:
#3-6 (code: 32858676HF) are 2013, day 285
#7-10 (code: 40938676Y4) are 2014, day 093

It would seem that the later production for Ion-Core AAA marked 4093 come pre-charged with less than 50% of their full capacity
BUT they seem to have noticeably higher full capacity than those marked 3285 under test.

Therefore my speculation is from about the start of code 40... Ion-Core AAA may have changed to a different/later(?) generation of standard Eneloop AAA

Of course all this is based on very limited sample of 10 Ion-Core AAA.

But anyone else with Ion-Core AAA please check the embossed codes and see if codes starting with 40 and later are actually like mine?

Thanks,


----------



## SaraAB87 (Dec 8, 2014)

I requested a pack of these AA's for Xmas so if I get them I will post back here.


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## UnknownVT (Dec 8, 2014)

SaraAB87 said:


> I requested a pack of these AA's for Xmas so if I get them I will post back here.



Ion-Core AAs are 2x 4-pk for $12.50 + free shipping on eBay - that's $6.25/4-pk
(no tax, no gas either) 
prob cheaper than a single 4-pack in a local brick & mortar shop....

Just search for "Duracell propay" on fleaBay,
(no affiliation with the listing or vendor)
then do due diligence on photos and description, before parting with money.

I got my Ion-Core AA in post #52

best,


----------



## Grijon (Dec 9, 2014)

Wow, you guys are awesome! Thank you all so much for sharing all of this.

I have 16 Tenergy 2600mAh AAs that I don't believe are LSD; when I received them they were too discharged to light up my single cell Fenixes at all. I bought them less than 2 months ago and their wrappers are already cracked open. Basically, I've lost faith in them for emergency use.

Thanks to all the information in this thread I'm fully confident that I can go buy these...Duraloop Pros? LOL! But really, I'm going to get four quads from Walmart for $11 each and then KNOW that I've got quality, reliable, LSD Eneloop Pros for a great price - which will please me to no end. Then I can continue to use the Tenergy until they die - and not worry about when that will be since I'll get to put the Eneloops into full service at that time!

You guys rock, and I thank you.


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## Grijon (Dec 9, 2014)

For me, it's worth the extra ~$4/pack to not have to deal with sorting out fakes online - to each their own, and I say Rock On to those who do save the money by doing so!


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## WalkIntoTheLight (Dec 9, 2014)

Grijon said:


> I have 16 Tenergy 2600mAh AAs that I don't believe are LSD; when I received them they were too discharged to light up my single cell Fenixes at all. I bought them less than 2 months ago and their wrappers are already cracked open. Basically, I've lost faith in them for emergency use.



Well, of course they aren't LSD. Tenergy's LSD batteries are the Tenergy Centura, and they are 2000mAh cells. They also sell "Tenergy Premium" AA cells, which are *not* LSD, but I thought they were 2500mAh (not 2600).

Maybe you got fakes?


----------



## Grijon (Dec 9, 2014)

WalkIntoTheLight said:


> Well, of course they aren't LSD. Tenergy's LSD batteries are the Tenergy Centura, and they are 2000mAh cells. They also sell "Tenergy Premium" AA cells, which are *not* LSD, but I thought they were 2500mAh (not 2600).
> 
> Maybe you got fakes?



Uninformed purchasing on my part; my enthusiasm was greater than my research. At that time in my flashaholic journey I erroneously assumed that these days all NiMH were LSD - I've since learned better thanks to CPF. That's why I'm so happy and grateful for the experts on here and current threads like this one; I'm learning so much!!

I don't think that they're fakes as I bought them from fenix-store.com, which I believe is a CPF-approved vendor (please pardon my forum-speak ignorance, but I hope you know what I'm trying to say) and that vendor has been STELLAR in all other regards (aside from the website's English). Here's the link to what I bought: http://www.fenix-store.com/tenergy-AA4PK/

I am planning on contacting them soon to ask if broken wrappers are a safety concern, or merely cosmetic.


----------



## MidnightDistortions (Dec 9, 2014)

Grijon said:


> Wow, you guys are awesome! Thank you all so much for sharing all of this.
> 
> I have 16 Tenergy 2600mAh AAs that I don't believe are LSD; when I received them they were too discharged to light up my single cell Fenixes at all. I bought them less than 2 months ago and their wrappers are already cracked open. Basically, I've lost faith in them for emergency use.
> 
> ...



Yeah i don't have much faith for HSD NiMHs in emergencies either. Those Tenergy 2600mAh are better used for regular usage.


----------



## UnknownVT (Dec 9, 2014)

UnknownVT said:


> I also bought and just received 2x 4-pk of the Ion-Core AAA. (ordered off eBay Dec/1 @ $10.50 ie: $5.25/4-pk AAA)
> Please remember only the Ion-Core AA are reputed to be re-badged Eneloop XX
> The Ion-Core AAA are "merely" re-badged regular Eneloops 2nd gen or later.
> 
> ...



The first full capacity results are interesting enough to warrant me making a new post 
(I will also update my main post #59 for completeness)

First full capacity test:

# mAh (full Capacity)
3 749 } 
4 758 } using Maha/PowerEX C9000 R&A charge 400mA, discharge 200mA
5 753 }
6 767 > using Opus BT-C3100 v2.1 Test mode charge 500mA, discharge 500mA (cannot vary Opus settings)

7 836 }
8 902 } using Opus BT-C3100 v2.1 Test mode charge 500mA, discharge 500mA (cannot vary Opus settings)
10 825 }
9* 829 > using Maha/PowerEX C9000 R&A charge 400mA, discharge 200mA

It seems the second set #7-10 (code: 40938676Y4) measures noticeably higher full capacity than the first set #3-6 (code: 32858676HF)

Set #3-6 (code: 32858676HF) results are a bit lower but seems to be in line with my very first 2 Ion-Core AAA (code: 30518676AN) (see post #1)

============================================
_*SPECULATION*: (Please note: this is not anything definitive)_

Based on the assumption the embossed codes have some relation with date of production
(best guess: the first digit is the year as in 3=2013, 4=2014;
the next 3 digits may be the day in the year.)

So my first 2 AAA - 
#1-2 (code: 30518676AN) were 2013, day 51

these most recent 2x 4-pks:
#3-6 (code: 32858676HF) are 2013, day 285
#7-10 (code: 40938676Y4) are 2014, day 093

It would seem that the later production for Ion-Core AAA marked 4093 come pre-charged with less than 50% of their full capacity
BUT they seem to have noticeably higher full capacity than those marked 3285 under test.

Therefore my speculation is from about the start of code 40... Ion-Core AAA may have changed to a different/later(?) generation of standard Eneloop AAA

Of course all this is based on very limited sample of 10 Ion-Core AAA.

But anyone else with Ion-Core AAA please check the embossed codes and see if codes starting with 40 and later are actually like mine?

Thanks,


----------



## ChrisGarrett (Dec 9, 2014)

Well, the only comment that I'll make is that you're all over the map with your testing of those cells. Two different chargers, two different discharge rates and two different charge rates.

That being said, within the pairs tested, even at varying rates of discharge and charge, the two batteries are fairly close to one another, except for that one pair which has a 7.3% spread and is not all that unusual.

Pick a charger, do a break-in, or whatever and then see what you see for each batch code. We can always manipulate and cheat the numbers up, or down, by decreasing the discharge/charge currents, or increasing them.

Chris


----------



## UnknownVT (Dec 9, 2014)

ChrisGarrett said:


> Well, the only comment that I'll make is that you're all over the map with your testing of those cells. Two different chargers, two different discharge rates and two different charge rates.
> 
> That being said, within the pairs tested, even at varying rates of discharge and charge, the two batteries are fairly close to one another, except for that one pair which has a 7.3% spread and is not all that unusual.
> 
> ...



Thanks.

Sorry, I used both my chargers because of expediency 
(I did the same with my most recent Ion-Core AAs - post #52
but because there was no significant difference between the two sets - they were the same code
it needed/generated no further comments.)

My two chargers:
Maha/PowerEX C9000 is more flexible - but more awkward to use.
Opus BT-C3100 v2.1 - is easier to use - but its preset modes are not variable - also mine has a fault with slot #1 (leftmost) where I cannot trust its readings - so I don't use it - in effect a 3-slot charger/analyzer.

I reported/disclosed enough information - so that the conditions were clear.

Those are the readings I got - under those conditions -
as you said yourself they do seem pretty consistent within the codes/batches.

I did this just to give an idea of how those batteries were -

I was _*not*_ expecting a noticeable difference between the 2 codes/batches
the difference between the two sets were enough to warrant posting the results - as is - with the conditions disclosed.

Others can do their own testing.

However in mitigation: 
I did mix one of each code to test in the other charger -
their results showed no significant difference to others in their same batch/code.

Note: Because of these comments - 
I have put a pair each from the different batches/codes in for a discharge cycle in the Maha C9000 at 200mA (=~0.2C) (from full checked they said "done" on the Maha.)
#3-4 (code: 32858676HF) and #7-8 (code: 40938676Y4) - 
will report back when they're done.

Thanks


----------



## ChrisGarrett (Dec 9, 2014)

I've run into the same problem, at least in the beginning, with my BC-700 and C-9000. Being kind of new to documenting things, I originally used both chargers and got differing numbers, mostly because 'we think' that the LaCrosse chargers (at least the BC-700) yields roughly a 10% higher number than the Maha.

We know this because the BC-700 terminates at a slightly higher voltage than the Maha's 1.47v, so it's presumably pumping more electrons into a given battery.

Anyhow, going back to some of my initial notes/test readings, where I used the BC on this set and the Maha on that quad, it can be somewhat confusing.

Since I started doing my '1 year discharge tests' I'm using only the Maha and I'm using specific rates for charge and discharge, to keep things consistent.

Chris


----------



## UnknownVT (Dec 9, 2014)

ChrisGarrett said:


> I've run into the same problem, at least in the beginning, with my BC-700 and C-9000. Being kind of new to documenting things, I originally used both chargers and got differing numbers, mostly because 'we think' that the LaCrosse chargers (at least the BC-700) yields roughly a 10% higher number than the Maha.
> 
> We know this because the BC-700 terminates at a slightly higher voltage than the Maha's 1.47v, so it's presumably pumping more electrons into a given battery.
> 
> ...



Normally this would not be a problem for me - as I usually get just 4 batteries - which would normally mean use of just one charger/analyzer.

The two latest occasions were different as I got 2 quads each and for expediency I used both chargers - 
however for AAA the Opus Test mode is significantly different from the R&A mode on the Maha (standard optimal charge at 0.5C discharge at 0.2C, can be set)


However -


UnknownVT said:


> However in mitigation:
> I did mix one of each code to test in the other charger -
> their results showed no significant difference to others in their same batch/code.
> 
> ...


----------



## Viking (Dec 9, 2014)

It is understandable you are getting quite different readings , when using different chargers for charging as well as discharging. both because of different termination algorithms for the chargers , but also if choosing different rates as well.

The chargers won't fill the cells equally up. But you may already know this. 
This test isn't after all about testing the chargers , I get that.

But someone else has previously tested the chargers readings relative to each other for accuracy , maybe it will interest you.

It showed that the readings for the C9000 and Opus BT-C2000 was almost identical. Same goes for the CBA II.

http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?382780-Discharging-accuracy-testing


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## UnknownVT (Dec 9, 2014)

Viking said:


> It is understandable you are getting quite different readings , when using different chargers for charging as well as discharging. both because of different termination algorithms for the chargers , but also if choosing different rates as well.
> 
> But someone else has previously tested the chargers readings relative to each other for accuracy , maybe it will interest you.
> 
> http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?382780-Discharging-accuracy-testing



Thank you for the very useful link:

might bear in mind what I have already posted:


UnknownVT said:


> However in mitigation:
> I did mix one of each code to test in the other charger -
> their results showed no significant difference to others in their same batch/code.
> 
> ...


----------



## cave dave (Dec 9, 2014)

UnknownVT said:


> ...
> Marked on the batteries made in Japan:
> 
> 
> ...



So one of those batteries is labeled 800mAh and the other is labeled 850mAH. I think that would indicate a generational improvement and not just marketing since testing backs up a capacity improvement. Do the back of the packages say different capacities? You say you ordered these at the exact same time? 

Retail buyers might want to look for the higher capacity version (850mAh) unless time and testing shows they have higher self discharge rates.


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## UnknownVT (Dec 9, 2014)

UnknownVT said:


> However in mitigation:
> I did mix one of each code to test in the other charger -
> their results showed no significant difference to others in their same batch/code.
> 
> ...



They're just done

All 4 batteries discharged on Maha/PowerEX C9000 @ 200mA (closest I can get to 0.2C)

# mAh (2nd full capacity)
3 758 }
4 771 } code: 32858676HF

7 836 }
8 845 } code: 40938676Y4

Looking at my previous results it is pretty obvious the Opus gives slightly higher readings than the Maha - 
but not as great as the difference between the different batches/codes

BUT these were now discharged under identical conditions all on the Maha at the same time.

Caveat: within the limited sample of two each of the same codes - 
it seems consistent that code: 40938676Y4 are noticeably higher in full capacity than code: 32858676HF.


FWIW - I also discharged the remaining two pairs in the Opus BT-C3100 v2.1 @ 200mA -
a pair (one of each code) at a time since I can only use 3-slots.

# mAh (2nd full Capacity)
5 767 }
6 808 } code: 32858676HF

9 861 }
10 906} code: 40938676Y4

As *cave dave* observed in post #74 just above this -

code: 32858676HF are marked 800mAh
and
code: 40938676Y4 are marked 850mAh
on the batteries.

That obviously explains why I found code: 40938676Y4 with higher capacities despite the fact I used different chargers with different test/analyze charge and discharge currents.

Hopefully these latest discharge results using a pair each in the same chargers using the same discharge current - shows more valid results 
and confirms the Ion-Core AAA marked with 850mAh (code: 40938676Y4) do have noticeably higher full capacity than those marked with 800mAh (code: 32858676HF).

Thanks for your patience in all this.


----------



## UnknownVT (Dec 9, 2014)

cave dave said:


> So one of those batteries is labeled 800mAh and the other is labeled 850mAH. I think that would indicate a generational improvement and not just marketing since testing backs up a capacity improvement. Do the back of the packages say different capacities? You say you ordered these at the exact same time?
> 
> Retail buyers might want to look for the higher capacities unless time and testing shows they have higher self discharge rates.



Good eyes! 
Thank you so much for spotting that 

I missed that completely!!! 

The packs unfortunately (or rather fortunately for my embarrassment!  ) 
say the same 800mAh on the back - 




So despite me using different chargers and charge/discharge currents - 
the results do seem to reflect the higher capacity.


code: 32858676HF are marked 800mAh
and
code: 40938676Y4 are marked 850mAh
on the batteries.

Thank you!


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## MidnightDistortions (Dec 13, 2014)

Didn't need to refresh these like i did with the Energizers. I did one discharge on them and they all reached 2450mAh up to 2500mAh. Though i used 350mA discharge 700mA charge rate on the La Crosse BC1000.


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## UnknownVT (Dec 13, 2014)

MidnightDistortions said:


> Didn't need to refresh these like i did with the Energizers. I did one discharge on them and they all reached 2450mAh up to 2500mAh. Though i used 350mA discharge 700mA charge rate on the La Crosse BC1000.



Did you mean break-in?

I think the opinion is LSD/pre-charged batteries don't seem to need a break-in.

Thanks for your confirmation.


----------



## MidnightDistortions (Dec 13, 2014)

UnknownVT said:


> Did you mean break-in?
> 
> I think the opinion is LSD/pre-charged batteries don't seem to need a break-in.
> 
> Thanks for your confirmation.



Well i used the La Crosse charger, i just recharged them to full capacity and then started a refresh. I didn't use the actual break in feature. Either way the the Duracells didn't need a break in and if we are reading the code dates right 3196, would mean that the batteries were manufactured around August of 2013 (i'm guessing here lol). The Energizers are older, manufactured in Jan of 2013 but then they are not using Eneloop technology and those batteries need refreshing/break-in. Either way, it still doesn't hurt to check their capacity from time to time.


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## SaraAB87 (Dec 13, 2014)

I like to do the refresh as well on any new pack of batteries I get just because I like to start with a full charge. I know it's not necessary but I just prefer it.


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## MidnightDistortions (Dec 15, 2014)

SaraAB87 said:


> I like to do the refresh as well on any new pack of batteries I get just because I like to start with a full charge. I know it's not necessary but I just prefer it.



I do the same . It's a good thing anyway to make sure the batteries are in good working condition. Any battery that isn't producing similar mAh capacities will be marked or if needed, the pack exchanged for a new set.


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## UnknownVT (Dec 15, 2014)

MidnightDistortions said:


> Well i used the La Crosse charger, i just recharged them to full capacity and then started a refresh.





SaraAB87 said:


> I like to do the refresh as well on any new pack of batteries I get just because I like to start with a full charge.



Just for clarification on the term "refresh" please:

Do you actually use the Refresh Mode on the LaCrosse BC-700?

From the LaCrosse BC-700U pdf manual on Refresh Mode:




If so, on a newly opened pack of Ion-Core AA how many discharge/charge cycles does it go through?

Thanks


----------



## MidnightDistortions (Dec 15, 2014)

Yes, i chose the refresh function. I only discharged the batteries once since it met the minimum mAh and didn't think it would have needed another discharge.


----------



## WalkIntoTheLight (Dec 15, 2014)

Do you find running through refresh cycles significantly increases the capacity of new LSD cells?


----------



## UnknownVT (Dec 15, 2014)

MidnightDistortions said:


> Yes, i chose the refresh function. I only discharged the batteries once since it met the minimum mAh and didn't think it would have needed another discharge.



Thanks.

Again for clarification please, as I don't own a LaCross BC-700.

Do you mean you manually pull the battery when the charge (after discharge) is complete in the BC-700 Refresh Mode?
Is there a rest period before the BC-700 starts on the next discharge -
if not, do you have to be attentive to when to manually pull the battery?

Thanks,


----------



## MidnightDistortions (Dec 15, 2014)

WalkIntoTheLight said:


> Do you find running through refresh cycles significantly increases the capacity of new LSD cells?





UnknownVT said:


> Thanks.
> 
> Again for clarification please, as I don't own a LaCross BC-700.
> 
> ...



You could actually use the test feature in the La Crosse charger (long as you didn't recharge them recently) to find out if you need to refresh them, which i will need to get another pack of Duracells to see if testing them would show full capacity. I did use them once after i got them so that might be the reason they were already showing full capacity.

I pulled the batteries out to change the mA (was at 700mA) to 500mA since using 700mA caused the battery temp to rise around 110F but also that i chose not to continue the refresh on the batteries. There's no rest period in between discharges/recharges but it'll trickle charge the batteries once they are full so i usually will pull them at the point they reach full capacity.


----------



## UnknownVT (Dec 15, 2014)

MidnightDistortions said:


> You could actually use the test feature in the La Crosse charger (long as you didn't recharge them recently) to find out if you need to refresh them, which i will need to get another pack of Duracells to see if testing them would show full capacity. I did use them once after i got them so that might be the reason they were already showing full capacity.
> 
> I pulled the batteries out to change the mA (was at 700mA) to 500mA since using 700mA caused the battery temp to rise around 110F but also that i chose not to continue the refresh on the batteries. There's no rest period in between discharges/recharges but it'll trickle charge the batteries once they are full so i usually will pull them at the point they reach full capacity.



Sorry, I am more confused.

The Refresh Mode of the LaCrosse BC-700 - according to the manual says it continuously discharges then charges the batteries - 
and will continue to do so until no increase in capacity is detected (up to a limit of 20 times).

Which means left to its own devices -
it HAS to do the discharge cycle at least twice to be able to determine if there is an increase in capacity (or not)

If what you are doing is pulling the batteries after one single discharge cycle to adjust the charging current -
then - why don't you just use the Discharge Mode - which according to the manual is a single discharge/charge cycle

To get your 500mA charge current - you still have to pull the battery at the end of the discharge cycle.

It seems that the action is the same - 
is there is a reason to choose the Refresh Mode over the Discharge Mode, please?


----------



## SaraAB87 (Dec 15, 2014)

As far as I can see the refresh mode will cycle batteries until they meet their maximum mah. This is supposed to fix cells that are not charging properly including older cells.

The discharge discharges the remaining mah in a battery then charges it up, this is the mode I use all the time. It simply removes the remaining mah in the battery then switches to a regular charge cycle and stops when the battery is full.


----------



## MidnightDistortions (Dec 15, 2014)

UnknownVT said:


> Sorry, I am more confused.
> 
> The Refresh Mode of the LaCrosse BC-700 - according to the manual says it continuously discharges then charges the batteries -
> and will continue to do so until no increase in capacity is detected (up to a limit of 20 times).
> ...



I had originally chosen refresh because i had figured it would at least take a few cycles to regain full capacity but since all the batteries were up to spec, i didn't need to continue with the refresh. Plus i had set the batteries at 700mAh since for one they should have been near full capacity plus i had time restrictions so i wanted to refresh the batteries quicker but since they were heating up i had no choice but to reduce the charge rate.

Test, refresh and discharge all do the same thing except testing charges the battery to full discharges and then recharges. Discharge would discharge the battery first then recharge it. Refresh like you said will continue until there is no increase in capacity. I had stopped refreshing because after seeing the readings from the first discharge that another discharge wasn't needed. The capacity may have increased or not but i didn't need to know. If the batteries were reading under specs like under 2350mAh i would have just changed the charge rate and kept doing the refresh, though i would still have had to charge the battery back up to full.


----------



## UnknownVT (Dec 15, 2014)

MidnightDistortions said:


> I had originally chosen refresh because i had figured it would at least take a few cycles to regain full capacity but since all the batteries were up to spec, i didn't need to continue with the refresh. Plus i had set the batteries at 700mAh since for one they should have been near full capacity plus i had time restrictions so i wanted to refresh the batteries quicker but since they were heating up i had no choice but to reduce the charge rate.
> 
> Test, refresh and discharge all do the same thing except testing charges the battery to full discharges and then recharges. Discharge would discharge the battery first then recharge it. Refresh like you said will continue until there is no increase in capacity. I had stopped refreshing because after seeing the readings from the first discharge that another discharge wasn't needed. The capacity may have increased or not but i didn't need to know. If the batteries were reading under specs like under 2350mAh i would have just changed the charge rate and kept doing the refresh, though i would still have had to charge the battery back up to full.



OK... I think I got it.

Using the refresh mode -
if after the first discharge you determine the capacity is up to spec -
you'd manually pull the battery to give it a final charge at 500mA.

If it's below spec - 
then would you leave the battery(ies) in the Refresh Mode 
until the capacity reads spec?

That seems (to me) a good reason to choose Refresh over Discharge.

Thanks


----------



## MidnightDistortions (Dec 15, 2014)

UnknownVT said:


> OK... I think I got it.
> 
> Using the refresh mode -
> if after the first discharge you determine the capacity is up to spec -
> ...



Yep, you got it. 

The only difference is i normally will charge it at 500mA, i wanted to speed things up a little since i wasn't going to be home if it was going to be refreshing for a few days. The Energizers were not all at full capacity a few cells were reading around 92% and i got them up to 95% which is where they did not gain any more capacity. I considered all the Duracell cells to be at 100% or more since they are rated at 2400mAh but i already know their internals are Eneloop Pros and they met those specs as well on the first discharge. I rarely do discharge, i use discharge mostly for older cells that won't handle a refresh unless i was specifically trying to get an updated max mAh capacity from them. Testing is another rare one too but it's good for cells that are mostly discharged and i want to get a capacity reading off of them.


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## hiuintahs (Dec 19, 2014)

These Duracell Ion Core batteries are heavier than Eneloops. Anyone know what the weight of an Eneloop XX or Panasonic Pro AA battery is?
Here is what I measured weight wise for a few common AA batteries:

Duracell Ion Core - 30 grams
Eneloop - 26 grams
Duracell alkaline - 24 grams
Energizer L91 lithium - 14 grams


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## ChrisGarrett (Dec 19, 2014)

hiuintahs said:


> These Duracell Ion Core batteries are heavier than Eneloops. Anyone know what the weight of an Eneloop XX or Panasonic Pro AA battery is?
> Here is what I measured weight wise for a few common AA batteries:
> 
> Duracell Ion Core - 30 grams
> ...



HKJ measures a 'Japanese' market XX/Pro at 30gm.

So spot on with the Iron Core 2400s.

http://lygte-info.dk/review/batteries2012/Eneloop AA BK-3HCC 2450mAh (Black) UK.html

Chris


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## hiuintahs (Dec 19, 2014)

ChrisGarrett said:


> HKJ measures a 'Japanese' market XX/Pro at 30gm.
> 
> So spot on with the Iron Core 2400s.
> 
> ...


Thanks, just more validity to who we think makes these Ion Cores!


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## gallon (Dec 19, 2014)

hiuintahs said:


> Thanks, just more validity to who we think makes these Ion Cores!



Yep. Made by Fujitsu.


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## hiuintahs (Dec 19, 2014)

gallon said:


> Yep. Made by Fujitsu.


Interesting. I've kind of got lost in any acquisitions that may have taken place in the past........assuming that is why "Fujitsu" was thrown out there. Key point being that all of us would be very happy to know that these Ion Cores are Eneloop technology.


----------



## gallon (Dec 20, 2014)

hiuintahs said:


> Interesting. I've kind of got lost in any acquisitions that may have taken place in the past........assuming that is why "Fujitsu" was thrown out there. Key point being that all of us would be very happy to know that these Ion Cores are Eneloop technology.



hiuintahs, I am working up the story of the convoluted timeline. Don't have it all together yet. A major missing piece is the original patents, which I believe lie between Toshiba and Sanyo. For example, the Factory started out as a Toshiba installation.

Since 2009/2010 the Takasaki factory and the technology have been owned by Fujitsu. FDK is a Fujitsu subsidiary.

So, what we are calling Eneloops are really all Fujitsu's.

My take is that eneloop now has two definitions.

1) It is a Panasonic trademark, which they are also applying to their Chinese batteries.

2) It is an adapted term, like xerox, which to us means high quality batteries from the FDK Takasaki factory. 'eneloops'

So that name will forever be confused I fear.


Back to the Duracell Ion Cores.

At present, I am aware of four equivalent 2400 mAh eneloops, made in the Fujitsu factory.

The Fujitsu Silver HR-3UTHA.
The Panasonic Eneloop Pro BK-3HCC formerly the Eneloop XX. 
The AmazonBasics High-Capacity Rechargeable Pre-Charged 2400 (part number)?.
The Duracell Ion Core.

I hold the Fujitsu and Panasonic match to be a near certainty.
I hold the AmazonBasics and Duracell to be 99% probable, given reviews, and comments, and histories.

Beyond those are two possibilites, there may be others.
The Twicell brand is a major brand, and they are made in the same factory. Not much further info at this time. Good research project for someone.
Costco, which we already know is a major vendor of eneloops. Conjecture is that they may choose to add the 2400 mAh version and they may one day decide to offer these under their own label. But this is my own conjecture.

That is the essence of it. I'll work up a bigger piece on all this, with some references and paste it up here for commentary. Like this comment, it will be a hypothesis for starters. It can form the seed for group knowledge of this fascinating technology.

One further bit of big news that I am trying to pin down is that the original patents may be about due to expire. Would appreciate it if anyone digs in to that. Start with Toshiba and Sanyo around the 2000 year.


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## WalkIntoTheLight (Dec 20, 2014)

gallon said:


> Costco, which we already know is a major vendor of eneloops. Conjecture is that they may choose to add the 2400 mAh version and they may one day decide to offer these under their own label. But this is my own conjecture.



They already sell the Eneloop Pros, bundled with a charger. Too expensive, IMO. Their regular Eneloops and bundles are a much better deal.


----------



## ChibiM (Dec 20, 2014)

gallon said:


> hiuintahs, I am working up the story of the convoluted timeline. Don't have it all together yet. A major missing piece is the original patents, which I believe lie between Toshiba and Sanyo. For example, the Factory started out as a Toshiba installation.
> 
> Since 2009/2010 the Takasaki factory and the technology have been owned by Fujitsu. FDK is a Fujitsu subsidiary.
> 
> ...



Thanks for the digging. Appreciated! 

Just a side note.... Fujitsu already produced some newer cells since July 2014, which are called HR-3UTHB. 
THey seem to have the same specs though.. might just be another indication to show the difference between the Japanese market and overseas markets. 
Just like the Eneloop XX ,HR-3UWX*A*, with the added *A* at the end, but never been sold in Japan, only overseas. 
Same specs as the HR-3UWX


----------



## gallon (Dec 20, 2014)

You are welcome ChibiM. Thank you in return for your services and knowledge.

And thank you for that Fujitsu update. At this point I think that whenever the 5th generation comes along, it will first be implemented in the Fujitsu line.

Have you considered adding Fujitsu to your sales lineup? I would think that to be entirely appropriate.

Do you know much about Twicell? They are made in the same facility, but are quite obscure here in North America.

Can you believe it? Somebody just offered a set of colored Disney AA's on Amazon at a not completely unreasonable price. I jumped on those.


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## SubLGT (Dec 20, 2014)

gallon said:


> …………………….
> 
> At present, I am aware of four equivalent 2400 mAh eneloops, made in the Fujitsu factory.
> 
> ...



Is the Toshiba Impulse 2500mAh AA battery a worthy competitor to the above listed batteries?


----------



## gallon (Dec 20, 2014)

gallon said:


> I hold the Fujitsu and Panasonic match to be a near certainty.
> I hold the AmazonBasics and Duracell to be 99% probable, given reviews, and comments, and histories.



I think that the Duracell Ion Core could be moved up to near certainty of Fujitsu manufacture. Go back to post #1 and observe the photos. It says right there 'Made in Japan'. Haven't we been hearing all along that there is only one NiMh LSD factory in Japan? That would be hard evidence.

@SubLGT, this new Toshiba is interesting. Do you have a photo, specs?


edit:

Can someone determine whether the AmazonBasics are made in Japan?


----------



## SubLGT (Dec 21, 2014)

gallon said:


> ……………….@SubLGT, this new Toshiba is interesting. Do you have a photo, specs?……………….



Not a whole bunch of specs, but I found this with a google search, at a dive shop:

http://www.divervision.com/sony-cycle-energy-2500mah-rechargeable-battery-4-pack-NH-AA-B4GN.html

I wonder if Toshiba is the actual manufacturer, and if the Impulse is intended for the Japanese market only.

I read in another thread that HKJ has tested them, but not yet posted the results.


----------



## ChibiM (Dec 22, 2014)

Hi, 
sorry, Fujitsu batteries are more expensive in Japan than eneloops! 

SubLGT: those you linked are *2400mAh*, while the descriptions says *2500*... strange!
Toshiba already have these cells upgraded to *2450mAh* very recently. 

Last year they also added their highest capacity LSD cells, which are *2550mAh*. Minimum. 
Most manufacturers only show Max or Nominal mAh, but eneloop in Japan and most other Japanese brands show MInimum mAh. 
These 2550mAh are more expensive than eneloop PRO. And they are all made in China.


----------



## MidnightDistortions (Dec 22, 2014)

ChibiM said:


> Hi,
> sorry, Fujitsu batteries are more expensive in Japan than eneloops!
> 
> SubLGT: those you linked are *2400mAh*, while the descriptions says *2500*... strange!
> ...



Someone needs to review those 2550mAh batteries. I'm curious to know whether they really offer that or that they are false advertising them. If they really are 2550mAh minimum cells then i wonder how they managed to achieve that.


----------



## metasyntax (Dec 23, 2014)

I was looking to get into some cheap but reliable NiMH batteries for temperature resistance, leak resistance, and longevity (in terms of self-discharge) to put in the lights in our car and home emergency kits. I picked up the Duracell Ion Core 1000 charger + 4xAA package, plus a pack of 4xAAA to try them out. The charger + 4xAA was only $13, but after reading the reviews on here I thought they'd be well worth it. I charged the AA together first, then the AAA together. All four AA charged up and seem fine. But one pair of the AAA just wouldn't finish charging, even a few hours after the other pair was done. I unplugged the charger and pulled out the pair that was charged up, and when I plugged the charger back in, the remaining batteries triggered the flashing red "battery problem" indicator pattern on the charger. This is disappointing... since I don't use these lights a lot, and what I really care about is being ready when I need them, I think I'm going to end up sticking with Energizer L91/L92 primaries instead of worrying about charging. I'd love to invest in a decent setup like a Maha C9000 with some Eneloops and Imedions, but it's hard to spend all that money up front. I'm sure Duracell is targeting consumers who don't want to spend a lot, but if the batteries are "bad" out of the box... I guess it's just more evidence that you get what you pay for. :-(


----------



## WalkIntoTheLight (Dec 23, 2014)

metasyntax said:


> I was looking to get into some cheap but reliable NiMH batteries for temperature resistance, leak resistance, and longevity (in terms of self-discharge) to put in the lights in our car and home emergency kits. I picked up the Duracell Ion Core 1000 charger + 4xAA package, plus a pack of 4xAAA to try them out. The charger + 4xAA was only $13, but after reading the reviews on here I thought they'd be well worth it. I charged the AA together first, then the AAA together. All four AA charged up and seem fine. But one pair of the AAA just wouldn't finish charging, even a few hours after the other pair was done. I unplugged the charger and pulled out the pair that was charged up, and when I plugged the charger back in, the remaining batteries triggered the flashing red "battery problem" indicator pattern on the charger. This is disappointing... since I don't use these lights a lot, and what I really care about is being ready when I need them, I think I'm going to end up sticking with Energizer L91/L92 primaries instead of worrying about charging. I'd love to invest in a decent setup like a Maha C9000 with some Eneloops and Imedions, but it's hard to spend all that money up front. I'm sure Duracell is targeting consumers who don't want to spend a lot, but if the batteries are "bad" out of the box... I guess it's just more evidence that you get what you pay for. :-(



I doubt the batteries were bad. It was probably just a super-crap charger. Buy a decent (but inexpensive) charger for about $20 that does independent channel smart charging. I have several inexpensive chargers, and almost all of them work fine.


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## ChrisGarrett (Dec 23, 2014)

metasyntax said:


> I was looking to get into some cheap but reliable NiMH batteries for temperature resistance, leak resistance, and longevity (in terms of self-discharge) to put in the lights in our car and home emergency kits. I picked up the Duracell Ion Core 1000 charger + 4xAA package, plus a pack of 4xAAA to try them out. The charger + 4xAA was only $13, but after reading the reviews on here I thought they'd be well worth it. I charged the AA together first, then the AAA together. All four AA charged up and seem fine. But one pair of the AAA just wouldn't finish charging, even a few hours after the other pair was done. I unplugged the charger and pulled out the pair that was charged up, and when I plugged the charger back in, the remaining batteries triggered the flashing red "battery problem" indicator pattern on the charger. This is disappointing... since I don't use these lights a lot, and what I really care about is being ready when I need them, I think I'm going to end up sticking with Energizer L91/L92 primaries instead of worrying about charging. I'd love to invest in a decent setup like a Maha C9000 with some Eneloops and Imedions, but it's hard to spend all that money up front. I'm sure Duracell is targeting consumers who don't want to spend a lot, but if the batteries are "bad" out of the box... I guess it's just more evidence that you get what you pay for. :-(



I have the D1000 Duracell charger that I got along with 4xAA Ion Core Duraloops for $10.99 on sale at Target last year. I don't really use the charger and keep it in my SHTF box.

You need to confirm whether it's the charger, the batteries, or a combo of both.

Take back what's not working.

Right now, the Ion Core Duraloops seem to be the best bet if you're not wanting them to sit for 5 years, or last for 2000 cycles.

Chris


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## MidnightDistortions (Dec 23, 2014)

metasyntax said:


> I was looking to get into some cheap but reliable NiMH batteries for temperature resistance, leak resistance, and longevity (in terms of self-discharge) to put in the lights in our car and home emergency kits. I picked up the Duracell Ion Core 1000 charger + 4xAA package, plus a pack of 4xAAA to try them out. The charger + 4xAA was only $13, but after reading the reviews on here I thought they'd be well worth it. I charged the AA together first, then the AAA together. All four AA charged up and seem fine. But one pair of the AAA just wouldn't finish charging, even a few hours after the other pair was done. I unplugged the charger and pulled out the pair that was charged up, and when I plugged the charger back in, the remaining batteries triggered the flashing red "battery problem" indicator pattern on the charger. This is disappointing... since I don't use these lights a lot, and what I really care about is being ready when I need them, I think I'm going to end up sticking with Energizer L91/L92 primaries instead of worrying about charging. I'd love to invest in a decent setup like a Maha C9000 with some Eneloops and Imedions, but it's hard to spend all that money up front. I'm sure Duracell is targeting consumers who don't want to spend a lot, but if the batteries are "bad" out of the box... I guess it's just more evidence that you get what you pay for. :-(



Besides the lack of individual slot charging and leaving my batteries trickle charging for weeks on end overcharging them i have been impressed by Duracell rechargeables. The same can be said for the Energizers even though they had bad luck with the 2500mAh NiMHs. Those batteries don't always require charging when first bought but it could be that when you unplugged the AAA's and reinserted them the charger got confused. I don't like unplugging batteries in the middle of the charge unless i plan on using them. If you got a multimeter check the voltage of the batteries. They should be at least 1.3 volts, if that's the case then your ok.

I have trusted Duracell over the years and hardly ever had any issues with them. That charger i have from Duracell is a bit clunky now, but it still gets the job done though i just use my La Crosse BC1000 for all the heavy lifting. You might have had a defective set but don't write off Duracell yet. Their batteries are up to par with Eneloops and the 2400mAh AA batteries are Eneloop Pro under the Duracell wrapper.  Try using the batteries until near death and charge them back up again, they might work better as you use them. If you prefer exchange the charger for a new one but it's really hard to say how much capacity those AAA batteries had to begin with. Maybe they took longer to charge because they were more discharged then the AA's.


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## ChibiM (Dec 23, 2014)

I just read they seem to have different specs on different ion core.. which one did you buy and were bad? Do you have a link or a direct description to the link?

Sent from my KFTT using Tapatalk


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## jwag73 (Dec 23, 2014)

Though I've only been using the Duracell ion core "made in Japan" batteries for a very short time, I think they're keeper's. They seem to perform great in my flashlight's at home and work. I put them in both my kids XBOX controller's over the weekend, so far so good! If they hold up, I'll be buying them regularly.


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## ChrisGarrett (Dec 23, 2014)

jwag73 said:


> Though I've only been using the Duracell ion core "made in Japan" batteries for a very short time, I think they're keeper's. They seem to perform great in my flashlight's at home and work. I put them in both my kids XBOX controller's over the weekend, so far so good! If they hold up, I'll be buying them regularly.



Most NiMH batteries of quality manufacture will perform as intended, especially over the short term. The litmus test is a year, or three, down the road and how well they hold up concerning things like internal resistance and overall capacity.

Short of infant mortality, they're going to do what we need them to do in most applications, right out of the pack.

Chris


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## jwag73 (Dec 23, 2014)

ChrisGarrett said:


> Most NiMH batteries of quality manufacture will perform as intended, especially over the short term. The litmus test is a year, or three, down the road and how well they hold up concerning things like internal resistance and overall capacity.
> 
> Short of infant mortality, they're going to do what we need them to do in most applications, right out of the pack.
> 
> Chris



If these cells are indeed "rebadged" Eneloop Pro's I'm thinking they should perform very well in the long term. I bought mine at Toy's R Us for $8.99 for a pack of four. That's a good price if they're really Eneloop's. I'm keeping my fingers crossed that they'll hold up and be working at a high level in a year from now.


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## MidnightDistortions (Dec 23, 2014)

jwag73 said:


> If these cells are indeed "rebadged" Eneloop Pro's I'm thinking they should perform very well in the long term. I bought mine at Toy's R Us for $8.99 for a pack of four. That's a good price if they're really Eneloop's. I'm keeping my fingers crossed that they'll hold up and be working at a high level in a year from now.



I have had good luck with NiMH batteries. At first it was a bit tricky because the chargers or the batteries were not quite up to par. But once Duracell and Energizer came out with NiMH batteries, they have worked well over the years. If you treat them well, they'll last 5+ years (unless you drain them every other day).


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## ChrisGarrett (Dec 23, 2014)

jwag73 said:


> If these cells are indeed "rebadged" Eneloop Pro's I'm thinking they should perform very well in the long term. I bought mine at Toy's R Us for $8.99 for a pack of four. That's a good price if they're really Eneloop's. I'm keeping my fingers crossed that they'll hold up and be working at a high level in a year from now.



Just so you know, the XX/Pros are rated for ~500 cycles, the Gen. 2s at ~1500 cycles, the 3s at ~1800 cycles and the 4s at ~2100 cycles, so the XX/Pros/Ion Cores are already at the bottom of the totem pole, but 500 cycles at a cycle per week, is about 9 years' worth, so I'm not sweating that detail.

Chris


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## jwag73 (Dec 24, 2014)

ChrisGarrett said:


> Just so you know, the XX/Pros are rated for ~500 cycles, the Gen. 2s at ~1500 cycles, the 3s at ~1800 cycles and the 4s at ~2100 cycles, so the XX/Pros/Ion Cores are already at the bottom of the totem pole, but 500 cycles at a cycle per week, is about 9 years' worth, so I'm not sweating that detail.
> 
> Chris



Chris, I had previously read that the Pro's and Ion core's have notably less charge cycles. The way I look at it is if they last me 3-4 years I'd be happy. I go through so many regular AA batteries between the kids game controller's and battery operated toys, I think I'll still be ahead of the game. That's not to mention the one's that I use at home and work. If not it should still be fairly close. I do have the white Eneloop's in both AA/AAA sizes, they should last a while. When I was researching batteries, the Duracell's looked promising, and the price is right.


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## MidnightDistortions (Dec 24, 2014)

Duracell guarantees the cells last 5 years based on if you drain them twice a week (did the rough estimate in my head) to recharge them. I don't know how many cycles the Energizer AAA's i have but they're almost 9 years old and have 70% capacity (which some refer to as crap cells, they last at least 4 hours in my minimag). They fared better than my AA cells but those were probably on their way out anyways since they got plenty of use.

I will usually keep the Eneloop Pro/Duracells for extra/emergency use while i use the regular 2000mAh Eneloops since you can get more cycles out of those. The extra capacity/less cycles are more useful during longer trips and EDC lights that you would check weekly (at least i do) to recharge before they go dead. The extra run time will help avoid having to fumble around in the dark or having to swap batteries out. When i am at home though, i'll use the 2000mAh ones even for high drain devices.


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## Rosoku Chikara (Dec 25, 2014)

gallon said:


> ...One further bit of big news that I am trying to pin down is that the original patents may be about due to expire. Would appreciate it if anyone digs in to that. Start with Toshiba and Sanyo around the 2000 year...<snip>



I took a run at it. See this new thread "*Following the Trail of Eneloop Technology*"


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## tripplec (Jan 2, 2015)

I got 2 packs now of the Ion Core cells. The old style Duracell were craps and did not come close to capacity. I got these as a replacement so the price was right. Walmart Canada sells them(4-AA) at $19 which is high in my opinion. I'd buy Eneloops for that. I'll see how they work out.


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## SaraAB87 (Jan 2, 2015)

I got the 1 pack ion cores for Xmas and I can say they had roughly 1000 mah left in each cell out of the pack, after discharge/refresh on the lacrosse bc700 they came up to 2.60 ah for the highest cell and 2.47 ah for the lowest. The batteries have a black top and say made in Japan on both the pack and the cells, like all other ion cores.


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## WalkIntoTheLight (Jan 3, 2015)

SaraAB87 said:


> I got the 1 pack ion cores for Xmas and I can say they had roughly 1000 mah left in each cell out of the pack, after discharge/refresh on the lacrosse bc700 they came up to 2.60 ah for the highest cell and 2.47 ah for the lowest. The batteries have a black top and say made in Japan on both the pack and the cells, like all other ion cores.



I'm surprised the charge is that low out of the pack. I find regular Eneloops have about 70% capacity out of the package. I don't have any Pros, but I'd be surprised if they were charged less than the regular Eneloops, and Pros shouldn't self-discharge down to 1000mAh.


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## tripplec (Jan 3, 2015)

I think its best to top up any battery LSD even before putting into use unless its been done very recently. I had a pair of Eneloop AA previously charged and sitting for some months. My wifes camera was complaining of the battery so I just swapped them in. It wasn't a lot better so I took the newly placed ones out and put them in my I4 charger (3 level charge indicator LED). I was on the 2nd level charging for a very long time. Some hours later it finished charging. I have noticed this before with other Eneloops as well. They may not be weak but I'd say they're a lot lower than you might think or rather expect.


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## jwag73 (Jan 3, 2015)

SaraAB87 said:


> I got the 1 pack ion cores for Xmas and I can say they had roughly 1000 mah left in each cell out of the pack, after discharge/refresh on the lacrosse bc700 they came up to 2.60 ah for the highest cell and 2.47 ah for the lowest. The batteries have a black top and say made in Japan on both the pack and the cells, like all other ion cores.



I found very similar findings with my ion core's as well. They seem to be a good cell, I couldn't be happier with the purchase.


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## Grijon (Jan 3, 2015)

I'm now using my new Maha MH-C9000 to refresh and analyze my Ion Core AA's, which have around two cycles on them before the R&A (at 1000/500 charge/dischg); they're all showing 2380 +/- 20 mAh so far for 12 of the 16 I have.

I am _very_ happy with mine.


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## MidnightDistortions (Jan 3, 2015)

tripplec said:


> I think its best to top up any battery LSD even before putting into use unless its been done very recently. I had a pair of Eneloop AA previously charged and sitting for some months. My wifes camera was complaining of the battery so I just swapped them in. It wasn't a lot better so I took the newly placed ones out and put them in my I4 charger (3 level charge indicator LED). I was on the 2nd level charging for a very long time. Some hours later it finished charging. I have noticed this before with other Eneloops as well. They may not be weak but I'd say they're a lot lower than you might think or rather expect.



I read somewhere that Panasonic charges Eneloops rapidly to keep the production line moving so they probably put enough charge in to give it a bit of a charge long enough to be used in a flashlight, cd player or other medium drain device. I don't really understand why some people are upset that they don't get a full charge on their Eneloops or other LSD/precharged battery when they are designed to charge. If the cells are older than a year i'll charge them up first, but usually it's a good idea to charge them anyway to break them in and it takes a couple of discharges before they reach full capacity though with new cells i don't really do a refresh until the 3rd or 4th charge or if they are over a year old. After a few charges and discharges they should have a good charge retention. With that being said i only noticed Energizer and some GoalZero LSD batteries that have lost a bit of capacity but mostly due from sitting in storage or on the shelf for a couple of years. It's always a good idea to test your cells when you first get them as they might need a break in.


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## WalkIntoTheLight (Jan 3, 2015)

MidnightDistortions said:


> I read somewhere that Panasonic charges Eneloops rapidly to keep the production line moving so they probably put enough charge in to give it a bit of a charge long enough to be used in a flashlight, cd player or other medium drain device. I don't really understand why some people are upset that they don't get a full charge on their Eneloops or other LSD/precharged battery when they are designed to charge.




IIRC, they're charged to about 75% capacity at the factory. You can use them right out of the package, but just don't expect something with 100% charge.


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## MidnightDistortions (Jan 3, 2015)

WalkIntoTheLight said:


> IIRC, they're charged to about 75% capacity at the factory. You can use them right out of the package, but just don't expect something with 100% charge.



You're probably right though when it gets to the store and into your home it's more realistically that they only have 50% charge left but it varies. It's that some people i think expect them to work well right out of the package before considering maybe they need to charge them and use them several times before they assume the batteries are no good. There's some Amazon reviews on both Eneloops and Eneloop Pros saying that they receive a shipment of dead batteries without actually recharging them and using them several times before they reach peak capacity.


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## WalkIntoTheLight (Jan 3, 2015)

Well, I've only ever tested regular Eneloops. And out of 196 cells I've bought so far (AA and AAA), they all came charged at least 70%. Perhaps a third I tested by discharging, the rest I estimate based on initial voltage. I can't speak for the high capacity Eneloops, or Duracells, as I don't own any. I just find it odd that they'd be so different.


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## UserName (Jan 7, 2015)

Are the duracell ion core like the old duracell precharged, in that within the same sku# they could be made in japan, or made in china?


I bought two packages of ion core (aa and aaa) at walmart, and thus far I'm satisfied with them, and fairly convinced the AAA's are rebadged eneloops, and the AA's eneloop pros, as is widely believed. Can I safely order some of them online and not have to worry about a package showing "made in china" when it arrives, and thus not being what I was intending (rebadged eneloops/pros)?


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## tripplec (Jan 15, 2015)

I ran a test on a brand new set of Duracell Ion-Core AA. I did a the "Charge Test" cycle on my *IQ-328* and by morning it came back with capacity of *2.43, 2.40, 2.40, 2.5Ah* as per the positions in the charger. The center two cell came back slightly lower. These are light years better than the previous NON ion-core I bought previously. Truly a high capacity cell.


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## JerryM (Jan 15, 2015)

In my quest for the best bang for the buck, I used an Ultrafire Sipik clone, and ran the following test. The batteries had all been charged within the last 2 weeks, and my selection was random as I do not segregate the batteries that closely.
Here are the results on High.

Eneloop 2nd gen 1hr 57min
Tenergy Centura 2hrs 0min
Duracell Ion-Core 2hrs 24min
Tenergy Premium 2hrs 40min

The Duracells are obviously a good choice, especially for those who buy from local sources instead of the internet.

Regards,
Jerry


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## UnknownVT (Jan 20, 2015)

WalkIntoTheLight said:


> IIRC, they're charged to about 75% capacity at the factory. You can use them right out of the package, but just don't expect something with 100% charge.



This may be so for the regular eneloops - which were factory charged to about 70% - at least when they were Sanyos - 
I do not know now since Panasonic took over.

The eneloop XX and these Duracell Ion-Core AA (re-badges) seem to be around 50% capacity when tested by *ChrisGarrett* and myself reported in this thread - as well as NLee the Engineer over at Amazon.

I have not seen any reports of initial remaining capacity even approaching 75%.


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## SaraAB87 (Jan 21, 2015)

In my area rechargables aren't exactly hot sellers so unless a store pulls their stock for a new package of rechargables or a new generation I would expect that cells sit on the shelves for 1-2 years at the least possibly 3-4 depending on how long it's been since the store restocked. Most people here buy their batteries at dollar stores because they just want the cheapest so target, Walmart etc don't restock too often. This would lead me to believe half capacity for an LSD cell out of the package would be completely normal especially since I assume they are not charged to 100% at the factory.


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## night.hoodie (Jan 21, 2015)

Compared to the new Panasonic eneloops, I've discovered the Duracell Ion Core have a better, more resiliant wrapper. You can't find eneloops locally in the US, AFAICT. And locally, Ion Core seem to be twice as much as prices online. But at least they're on the shelves when needed, at the drug store, at the grocery store, etc. I can't get enough of them.


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## chazz (Jan 21, 2015)

night.hoodie said:


> You can't find eneloops locally in the US, AFAICT.



I have purchased them at Ritz/Wolf Camera stores, FWIW.


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## SaraAB87 (Jan 22, 2015)

They sell eneloops at Costco in the USA but Costco isn't everywhere, we don't have one here. You can also buy them online at Target and Amazon and a million other online retailers.


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## C.M.S (Jan 25, 2015)

I just invested in some AAA's Ion core . It's good to here that these are good cells , I wondered if these are any good and reading through it seems that these are a winner , love the fact you can use aftermarket chargers unlike the Energizers , and the Duracells can be found pretty much anywhere .


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## magellan (Jan 25, 2015)

ChrisGarrett said:


> We think that Eneloops leave the factory at a 70% charge, so you lost about 26% if that's correct. It could be even less than 70%.
> 
> Do a break in and see what you see.
> 
> ...



I just bought four AA's and got similar capacity numbers, except one got to 2599, interestingly enough, and that was on the first charge. This was on a SkyRC 2500 charger/analyzer.


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## L_D_Allan (Mar 7, 2015)

Sam's Club has a "bundle" of 8 AA and 2 AAA for $20 ... seems like a good (not great?) deal.
http://www.samsclub.com/sams/dura-r...arch_page.rr1&campaign=rr&sn=SolrSearchToView&

2400 mah Long Life Ion Core ... Eneloop clones?


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## gallon (Mar 7, 2015)

L_D_Allan said:


> Sam's Club has a "bundle" of 8 AA and 2 AAA for $20 ... seems like a good (not great?) deal.
> http://www.samsclub.com/sams/dura-r...arch_page.rr1&campaign=rr&sn=SolrSearchToView&
> *
> 2400 mah Long Life Ion Core ... Eneloop clones?*



Have you troubled yourself to read this Duracell Ion Core thread?


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## L_D_Allan (Mar 7, 2015)

gallon said:


> Have you troubled yourself to read this Duracell Ion Core thread?



Well, yes, I attempted to read the 135+ posts of the thread. Sorry that you (and perhaps others?) perceive me as being an AskHole.

There were some posts that mentioned prices, but some of those were for AAA's. Also, some posts with prices were 3 to 6+ months old, and prices do change both up and down. My impression was that some of the really low prices may have been associated with Black Friday, and not necessarily still available.

So, I thought I might ask (for myself and possibly others) if the Sam's Club price for 8 AA plus 2 AAA was good, bad, or indifferent.


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## MidnightDistortions (Mar 8, 2015)

L_D_Allan said:


> Sam's Club has a "bundle" of 8 AA and 2 AAA for $20 ... seems like a good (not great?) deal.
> http://www.samsclub.com/sams/dura-r...arch_page.rr1&campaign=rr&sn=SolrSearchToView&
> 
> 2400 mah Long Life Ion Core ... Eneloop clones?



They appear to be the equivalent of the Eneloop Pro.


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## ronniepudding (Mar 8, 2015)

L_D_Allan said:


> So, I thought I might ask (for myself and possibly others) if the Sam's Club price for 8 AA plus 2 AAA was good, bad, or indifferent.



depends upon whether the Sam's Ion Cores are the same (made in Japan) as the one's being discussed. If so, then the price is Indifferent. Toys R Us has had them on their website -- since the beginning of this thread anyway -- @ 4/$9.


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## L_D_Allan (Mar 9, 2015)

ronniepudding said:


> depends upon whether the Sam's Ion Cores are the same (made in Japan) as the one's being discussed. If so, then the price is Indifferent. Toys R Us has had them on their website -- since the beginning of this thread anyway -- @ 4/$9.



Thanks. The Duracell AA's appear to be the same Made-In-Japan as the 4-pack at Toys-R-Us. For me, the Toys-R-Us appear to be a better value, as I really don't have much use for the AAA batteries that are part of the Sam's Club "bundle". If I had use for the AAA's, then it seems they are about of equal value. Or not?


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## L_D_Allan (Mar 9, 2015)

MidnightDistortions said:


> They appear to be the equivalent of the Eneloop Pro.



Thanks. I was unclear that the "main point" of my question was the value of the Sam's Club bundle, and not whether the Duracell 2400's were Eneloop clones. My bad.


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## MarioJP (Apr 7, 2015)

*Re: Duracell Ion Core AA &amp; AAA*

I am having a issue with these ion core AA cells. I recently did a charge test to see where they stand. After the test was done. I am only getting around 2200mAh out of them. Nowhere near their rated capacities. The usage on these cells is moderate, so they're still kind of new. Do i need to break them in?

Thanks


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## UnknownVT (Apr 7, 2015)

*Re: Duracell Ion Core AA &amp; AAA*



MarioJP said:


> I am having a issue with these ion core AA cells. I recently did a charge test to see where they stand. After the test was done. I am only getting around 2200mAh out of them. Nowhere near their rated capacities. The usage on these cells is moderate, so they're still kind of new. Do i need to break them in?



I didn't have to break any of mine in, and from the first full charge they were achieving above their rated capacities.

They (like almost all NiMH) do increase in tested capacity with some usage, but nothing dramatic.

Provided you trust your capacity measurements - 2200mAh sounds really low for Duracell Ion-Core AA -
that's more like really good regular Eneloop or Duracell -Pre-Charged (non Ion-Core) 
can you confirm they do look like the batteries in the pictures in the opening post?


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## MarioJP (Apr 7, 2015)

They are the ones in the pic Duracell ion core, black top guarantee to last 5 years. Also, it has a bit more weight than the regular eneloops. Slightly fatter too. And their voltage characteristics between the regular eneloops and these ion core are noticeably different. Their resting voltages after a few hours off the charger is anywhere between 1.38v-1.35v. Where as the eneloops rests at 1.41v even after a day. That seems a bit low just after a few hours resting.


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## tripplec (Apr 7, 2015)

My Ion Cores Tested pretty much at spec's of the package. If you have the earlier vintage NON Ion Cores then that is certainly going to be much less.

What charger did you use to measure the charge after discharging it?


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## MarioJP (Apr 7, 2015)

This is the charger i am using.

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B004Z5XXZU/?tag=cpf0b6-20


Discharge rate at 500Ma. The battery wrapper seems to be identical just like the pic on this thread. Made in Japan. These ion-core were on sale at Wallgreens. Best bang for the buck

Going to retry the test again, discharging at 500Ma only this time i made sure the cells were topped off or voltages reaching 1.52v-1.54v. I suspect that these cells are not being fully charged, early termination? Will see how this test goes.


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## magellan (Apr 7, 2015)

Thanks again for the detailed review UnknownVT, and for all the great info posted here by everybody.

I got results very similar to yours from two sets of AAs that I bought. Haven't tried the AAAs yet but I'm sure I will.

Just one thing, one of the 8 AAs I have takes much longer to charge than the others, and I mean long, like two to three times as long. Not sure what that's all about but anyway, overall I'm satisfied with these batteries especially at the price.


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## tripplec (Apr 8, 2015)

MarioJP said:


> This is the charger i am using.
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/dp/B004Z5XXZU/?tag=cpf0b6-20
> 
> ...



Haha that's the same one I used. You can set the discharge rate higher than the default apparently and if you use 1000mA charging I find those charges will heat the battery (too hot for my liking). 750mA if you're not watching it. Otherwise hang around and touch it now and then the batteries get hot after 1.45V even with the bottom spaced off a surface for air flow. I have two other chargers but neither will measure capacity as this does.


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## UnknownVT (Apr 8, 2015)

magellan said:


> Just one thing, one of the 8 AAs I have takes much longer to charge than the others, and I mean long, like two to three times as long. Not sure what that's all about but anyway, overall I'm satisfied with these batteries especially at the price.



That does not sound right -

Has this happened more than once?
If so
Is it with the same slot on your charger?

May not be in your case, but I did have a really well spec'd charger with a faulty channel/slot -
if there is interest - links:
Summary in Post #72
Initial test of fault post #55
Confirmation of fault Post #59

Hope you resolve the issue.


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## tripplec (Apr 8, 2015)

This charger does indicate the current that is actually flowing through each channel. Toggle the mode reading the display to see this. It does take a while to figure out especially without backlighting I have to get mine where there is bright light on it. My eyes not as good as they used to be. Each cell is normally charging at a similar current which is a dead give away if one is way off. You can swap batteries in between channels at any time if you want to see what happens. It will mess the capacity calculation if you do but this is not the point and each channel is programmable with a different current. Maybe it is 250mA and others are much higher. There is a PDF you can download on that charger from their website.


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## MarioJP (Apr 8, 2015)

*Re: Duracell Ion Core AA &amp; AAA*



tripplec said:


> Haha that's the same one I used. You can set the discharge rate higher than the default apparently and if you use 1000mA charging I find those charges will heat the battery (too hot for my liking). 750mA if you're not watching it. Otherwise hang around and touch it now and then the batteries get hot after 1.45V even with the bottom spaced off a surface for air flow. I have two other chargers but neither will measure capacity as this does.


Haha good to know!. Something tells me that this charger is the La crosse in disguise because it sure behaves just like the La Crosse, but with slight differences. Suh as, no individual slot selection and its way cheaper. But for everything else. Its a La Crosse under another brand in a new body haha. Even right down to the discharge glitch at low currents. This glitch or bug is. If you discharge 4 cells at a time at 100mA or at low currents. The voltages on all 4 slots causes to dip by .5mv lasts about a split second before jumping right back up again and repeats every 20 to 40 seconds. This kind of ruins the accuracy of cell capacity because if the cell voltage is at 0.95v. 20 or so seconds later, voltage will dip from 0.95v to 0.90v in a split second, triggering the charge mode. I found 2 solutions for this glitch. 1 discharge at 500mA when discharging all 4 cells 2. Only use 2 cells at a time when discharging at low currents. Does not matter which slot. This solves the voltage dipping glitch. Very odd glitch

I have 2 of the same charger and the glitch is on both of them lol. Now back to the cells, i had to repeat the test because i missed the readings and discharge mode does not record the final results (dammit lol).

Update

Finished discharging these cells and it turns out that these cells have exceeded their rated capacity. The first 7 cells ranging from 2.53Ah-2.56Ah. The last one ended up being 2.6Ah. So i don't know what went wrong previously but i am pleased with the results.


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## MidnightDistortions (Apr 8, 2015)

*Re: Duracell Ion Core AA &amp; AAA*



MarioJP said:


> Haha good to know!. Something tells me that this charger is the La crosse in disguise because it sure behaves just like the La Crosse, but with slight differences. Suh as, no individual slot selection and its way cheaper. But for everything else. Its a La Crosse under another brand in a new body haha. Even right down to the discharge glitch at low currents. This glitch or bug is. If you discharge 4 cells at a time at 100mA or at low currents. The voltages on all 4 slots causes to dip by .5mv lasts about a split second before jumping right back up again and repeats every 20 to 40 seconds. This kind of ruins the accuracy of cell capacity because if the cell voltage is at 0.95v. 20 or so seconds later, voltage will dip from 0.95v to 0.90v in a split second, triggering the charge mode. I found 2 solutions for this glitch. 1 discharge at 500mA when discharging all 4 cells 2. Only use 2 cells at a time when discharging at low currents. Does not matter which slot. This solves the voltage dipping glitch. Very odd glitch
> 
> I have 2 of the same charger and the glitch is on both of them lol. Now back to the cells, i had to repeat the test because i missed the readings and discharge mode does not record the final results (dammit lol).
> 
> ...



Hmm, i only have that voltage dip problem with older cells. But it's ideal anyway for AA cells to be charged at 500mA or higher so using the higher settings for those cells is ideal. Some cells have developed high-IR so i have no choice but to choose 100mA discharge/200mA charge. Going to try this on some Eneloops at some point but generally i notice when it starts to dip under 1.1 volts is when the voltage drops anyhow.


----------



## MarioJP (Apr 9, 2015)

*Re: Duracell Ion Core AA &amp; AAA*

The glitch only happens on any given cell regardless of what state the cells are in while in discharge mode at low discharge rates. I mean, its a minor issue and it still does the job. Just don't expect accuracy when measuring cell capacity. Unless, 2 cells are being discharged at a time.


----------



## onthebeam (Sep 10, 2015)

*Re: Duracell Ion Core AA &amp; AAA*

I did call Duracell today about the Ion Cores.

They confirmed that the first three digits are date code.

For example, "426. . ." indicated a battery made in the 26th week of 2014.


----------



## RI Chevy (Sep 10, 2015)

Cool. TY


----------



## bob_ninja (Sep 11, 2015)

At this stage sounds like this one is pretty much identical to the Amazon Basics High-Capacity (also made in Japan). Correct?

Review:

http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb...est-Review-of-Amazon-Basic-AA-2500mAh-(Black)


For my region the Amazon product is actually 7% cheaper and I don't have to drive to Walmart.
So thinking of simply ordering the Amazon cells, unless I am missing something important.


----------



## UnknownVT (Sep 11, 2015)

onthebeam said:


> I did call Duracell today about the Ion Cores.
> 
> They confirmed that the first three digits are date code.
> 
> For example, "426. . ." indicated a battery made in the 26th week of 2014.



Thank you so much for solving that :thumbsup:



bob_ninja said:


> At this stage sounds like this one is pretty much identical to the Amazon Basics High-Capacity (also made in Japan). Correct?
> 
> Review:
> 
> ...



It does (and thanks for the link to HKJ's review)

Ion-Core AAs can still be found @ $6.50/4-pk for 2x pks on eBay (I have bought from this seller using that payment method)


----------



## onthebeam (Sep 11, 2015)

To follow up on UnknownVT's tip re Ebay pricing, as has been noted before, Toys R Us often has 40% off on second pack. If you order online where pricing is better, you can pick up in your local store for around $7.25 a pack once all discounts have been applied.

For those here in Florida or Georgia, Publix often runs 25% off Duracell sales, including this week. This works out to just over $8.00 a pack. 

You can see the date code on at least one battery through the plastic, typically. If you are buying now, look for 15 and not 14 for the freshest batteries. The ones I saw in Walmart yesterday were a year and a half old, while the ones in Publix were just a few months from date of manufacture.


----------



## UnknownVT (Sep 11, 2015)

onthebeam said:


> Toys R Us often has 40% off on second pack. If you order online where pricing is better, you can pick up in your local store for around $7.25 a pack once all discounts have been applied.
> 
> For those here in Florida or Georgia, Publix often runs 25% off Duracell sales, including this week. This works out to just over $8.00 a pack.
> 
> You can see the date code on at least one battery through the plastic, typically. If you are buying now, look for 15 and not 14 for the freshest batteries. The ones I saw in Walmart yesterday were a year and a half old, while the ones in Publix were just a few months from date of manufacture.



Cool! thanks for the advice :thumbsup:

That eBay listing uses ProPay - it is legit/safe payment method - supported by eBay.

But I have had problems (more than once) of the ProPay payment process failing with no ability to retry.

I have to write to the vendor each time to ask for an invoice to complete payment -
some people may not want to go through this kind of unnecessary fuss.


----------



## onthebeam (Sep 22, 2015)

For those interested, ToysRUs has them again at $8.99 less 40% on second pack, meaning $7.19 a pack. Order online and pick up in store.

Quite the deal.


----------



## magellan (Sep 22, 2015)

UnknownVT said:


> That does not sound right -
> 
> Has this happened more than once?
> If so
> ...



Sorry, I only just saw this post.

You were right, it appears to be a problem with this slot on the charger, as this has happened more than once now.

For now I'm okay to have just 3 bays, but eventually I'm going to replace the charger.


----------



## roadwarrior (Oct 13, 2015)

Can someone please post a link for the AA Ion Core datasheet?

I tried google and could only come up with a datasheet for a Duracell 2400mAh (DX 1500 AA) rechargeable battery data sheet, however the pic in the data sheet did not look like the Ion Core batteries....

Thanks in advance.


----------



## UnknownVT (Jun 29, 2016)

Really _*BAD *_news...

6 of my regularly used Duracell Ion Core AA batteries have developed High Internal resistance -







showing High internal resistance of over 500 milli-Ohms.

I first started noticing perhaps 2-3 weeks ago when I thought I was getting less than 1/2 the capacity/duration with the Ion-Core AAs.

I used these in a digital recorder (Tascam DR-05) - which uses 2 at a time - and I rotate 6 or 3 pairs (same pairs).

I thought my routine ought prolong the life of these batteries -

Use until the recorder shuts down -
some hours after I get home -
discharge remainder in Opus BT-C3100 v2.1 at 500mA (C/5 or 20% C) (discharge remainder figure was always in the 150-300mAh - has never been 0)
leave overnight -
charge at 1500mA until full (total to charge always around ~2500-2670mAh).

Before use or when I set to carry a pair as spare - top-up charge at 1500mA until charger says Full (usually about 150-300mAh).

When I first started using these they gave well over 15 hours of use.

Then I noticed recently the recorder seemed to shutdown prematurely - getting maybe about 5 hours until shutdown....

I have only used these in this manner for about 20 times

Checking discharge and charge figures seemed to be "normal" -

Then I thought of internal resistance - as the Opus BT-C3100 (v2.1) can measure that -
as the above pic shows all 6 batteries have developed High internal resistance.

I made sure the terminals were cleaned with DeoxIT and seated firmly. Done repeated reading (since I simply couldn't believe it)

I also have some Ion-Core AAs that have been idle sitting in unused equipment -
Internal resistance is much, much better -






So either the 6 I have were not very durable and would last less than about 20 cycles, which is very low -
or perhaps my routine is damaging these batteries?.....

Advice, please?

Thanks,


----------



## MidnightDistortions (Jun 29, 2016)

Those should be rebrand Eneloop Pro. They generally dont require much refreshing and may be best to use them and recharge. Wouldn't worry about discharging them all the way flat because you'll end up using more cycles that way. Still they shouldnt be so weak. If you have another, different smart analyzer charger i'd check with that. Are both sets doing the same thing? I would at the very least recharge them at the end of use, not use until they are dead.


----------



## UnknownVT (Jun 29, 2016)

MidnightDistortions said:


> Those should be rebrand Eneloop Pro. They generally dont require much refreshing and may be best to use them and recharge. Wouldn't worry about discharging them all the way flat because you'll end up using more cycles that way. Still they shouldnt be so weak. If you have another, different smart analyzer charger i'd check with that. Are both sets doing the same thing? I would at the very least recharge them at the end of use, not use until they are dead.



Thank you very much for the input.

I am the OP, so yes, I knew these were re-branded Eneloop XX AA.

So do you think discharging nearly empty batteries before recharging 
can really shorten the life of these Ion-Cores to about *1/20th* their rated life?

(I don't think the Opus BT-C3100 v2.1 ever over-discharged the batteries - they have shown about 150-300mAh remaining capacity)

(I have got only about 20 uses from these 6 by using my routine - 
my Maha/PowerEX MH-C9000 now displays HIGH, and refuses to charge these 6 now)

Thank you


----------



## MidnightDistortions (Jun 29, 2016)

UnknownVT said:


> Thank you very much for the input.
> 
> I am the OP, so yes, I knew these were re-branded Eneloop XX AA.
> 
> ...



If you are fully discharging them id say it could lessen the cycle use. Even then they still should be ok but its hard to tell without testing. You have been using the same analyzer charger right? 

When I first got the Maha C9000 I have a set of Energizer AAA's from 2006 that was at 70-80% IR but has increased to 90+% IR. They were able to function in the C9000 at first but all 7 of them has high IR now.

It may also be possible leaving them in a fully charged state can deteriorate the cells faster than if you had them at say 60% state of charge. But i'm guessing there. What charge rate are you using and do the cells heat up at the end of charge?


----------



## UnknownVT (Jun 29, 2016)

MidnightDistortions said:


> If you are fully discharging them id say it could lessen the cycle use. Even then they still should be ok but its hard to tell without testing. You have been using the same analyzer charger right?
> 
> When I first got the Maha C9000 I have a set of Energizer AAA's from 2006 that was at 70-80% IR but has increased to 90+% IR. They were able to function in the C9000 at first but all 7 of them has high IR now.
> 
> It may also be possible leaving them in a fully charged state can deteriorate the cells faster than if you had them at say 60% state of charge. But i'm guessing there. What charge rate are you using and do the cells heat up at the end of charge?



Thank you again for the input.

I understand that you might think the discharge routine may shorten the life - 
but this is several _magnitudes_ greater - 
and it has happened to all 6 (3 pairs) at about the same time.

Rated life by Duracell is 400 cycles -
(Eneloop XX (Pro) are rated 500 cycles)

I've got about 20 uses (cycles?) 
which is 1/20th the shorter rated life.

Perhaps my routine might be less than optimal - 
but to reduce the life by *95%*???

I now mainly use the Opus BT-C3100 v2.1 (link to CPF review by HKJ)

I also have the Maha/PowerEX MH-C9000.

Thanks,


----------



## MidnightDistortions (Jun 29, 2016)

I would try it in the C9000 if you havent done so already.


----------



## UnknownVT (Jun 29, 2016)

MidnightDistortions said:


> I would try it in the C9000 if you havent done so already.



Thank you for continuing to try to help - however already posted -



UnknownVT said:


> my Maha/PowerEX MH-C9000 now displays HIGH, and refuses to charge these 6 now



Thanks, appreciated,


----------



## swan (Jun 29, 2016)

Interesting post, i have noticed a few people have reported high ir issues with AA XX, Pros. I too had problems with a 4 pack of sanyo XX,s hardly used crap out after about 2 yrs having never being over or under discharged with not many charge cycles. 

I first noticed the XX,s would send my EA4 into low battery warning flash hot off the charger in turbo mode with the light losing lux. A couple of full cycles made it worse until my charger rejected them completely.

I have 20 or so normal aa eneloops that where purchased around the same time [dated 2012] which are still as new which where charged and cared for in the same manor as the XX,s.

So for me if i require any more eneloops, i will probably stick with the standard ones.


----------



## ChrisGarrett (Jun 29, 2016)

UnknownVT said:


> Thank you for continuing to try to help - however already posted -
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks, appreciated,



So you're using this batteries in your digital recorder, when you come home, they've discharged down to the point that the machine turns off and shuts down?

You then take the batteries and further discharge them down to X, Y or Z voltage and then recharge?

i don't know why you wouldn't just charge them up when you got home, as a rule and perhaps repeatedly taking them down to .90v, or Y volts, has stressed them?

You should get more than 20 cycles out of your batteries. Heck, even my Sanyo 2700s went 2.5-3 years before they finally crapped out on me.

Chris


----------



## UnknownVT (Jun 29, 2016)

swan said:


> Interesting post, i have noticed a few people have reported high ir issues with AA XX, Pros. I too had problems with a 4 pack of sanyo XX,s hardly used crap out after about 2 yrs having never being over or under discharged with not many charge cycles.
> 
> I first noticed the XX,s would send my EA4 into low battery warning flash hot off the charger in turbo mode with the light losing lux. A couple of full cycles made it worse until my charger rejected them completely.
> 
> ...



Thank you very much for this interesting input. 

Hadn't heard about this problem before - so am very grateful for that input.

Do you by any chance have links to those reports, please?

Thanks.



ChrisGarrett said:


> So you're using this batteries in your digital recorder, when you come home, they've discharged down to the point that the machine turns off and shuts down?
> 
> You then take the batteries and further discharge them down to X, Y or Z voltage and then recharge?
> 
> ...



Thanks Chris. 
It sounds foolish with hindsight - but I do the discharge just to see how much capacity remains - it normally is a pretty small amount - so I'm kind of reassured by that - 
and didn't see much harm in it as long as the remainder is a positive amount and not zero (BTW - the voltage is 0.90V, safe, so I thought).....

If that was the cause - 
then I never would have imagined that it would reduce the rated life by 95%!!

Thanks,


----------



## swan (Jun 30, 2016)

Sorry UnknownVT, i do not have any links, just something i have read here.

How are the good ones temp during charging compared with a normal eneloop?

After i realised there was a problem with these 4 cells, i noticed how hot they got when charging even to the point where the wrappers started to lift at the seem.

Further tests revealed these cells individually struggled to drive my little jetbeam wls1 making the driver scream with a high pitched whine where the normal eneloop kept the driver silent and smooth. I tried to revive them but the charger i had at the time just rejected them as bad.

Although this is only my example and these are the only XX,s that i have owned [1 x 4 pack] its unusual to me all 4 cells died at once.


----------



## UnknownVT (Jun 30, 2016)

swan said:


> How are the good ones temp during charging compared with a normal eneloop?
> 
> After i realised there was a problem with these 4 cells, i noticed how hot they got when charging even to the point where the wrappers started to lift at the seem.
> 
> ...



Thank you again for that invaluable input.

None of these Ion-Core AA batteries got hot during charging - yes, warm to touch, but not hot - 
I am reasonably careful about monitoring the charge/discharge of these batteries.

Yes, it came as a real shock to find those 6 regularly used Duracell Ion-Cores (re-badged Eneloop XX Pros) died about the same time - 
they are now all HIGH (internal resistance) in the Maha/PowerEX MH-C9000 and won't even discharge in that charger.

I do understand that to some my routine may seem superfluous and might even reduce the life cycle - 
but as I said never would I have imagined that they would reduce to only 5% of the rated life - 
or put it another way lose 95% of their rate life cycle.

It would seem to me that what I did was minor, in comparison to the catastrophic loss of life-cycle.....

I have done more abusive things to much crappier batteries before I (thought I) knew better -

but either I have done something to cause this very drastic shortening of life (what?) -
or there was something wrong with these 6 batteries I have.

[note: I have 18 of these -
these 6 have this embossed code on the battery near the seam:
1-4 : 30648676A2
5-6 : 30528676A1 ]

Really appreciate the input, thanks,


----------



## MidnightDistortions (Jun 30, 2016)

Have you tried doing a break in?

Normally if the cell is being discharged to 0.9volts it wont harm it but if the camera is shutting off due to low battery and then attempt to discharge it with a charger the cycle life can be reduced. Also it may be possible that the cells may be older than 5 years. They may have been on the shelf for 3 or more years initially. I dont have any issues with my Duracell Ion Cores or my AAA Eneloop Pros. I noticed that when they get discharged they wont recover past 1.1volts. Regular Eneloops will recover to 1.2 volts.


----------



## Woods Walker (Jun 30, 2016)

I might....and state might be having issues with a Duraloop pro in my SC5W. Twice it was expectantly dead with drained battery. Only the very initial stages for investigation so nothing is ruled out.


----------



## UnknownVT (Jun 30, 2016)

MidnightDistortions said:


> Have you tried doing a break in?
> 
> Normally if the cell is being discharged to 0.9volts it wont harm it but if the camera is shutting off due to low battery and then attempt to discharge it with a charger the cycle life can be reduced. Also it may be possible that the cells may be older than 5 years. They may have been on the shelf for 3 or more years initially. I dont have any issues with my Duracell Ion Cores or my AAA Eneloop Pros. I noticed that when they get discharged they wont recover past 1.1volts. Regular Eneloops will recover to 1.2 volts.



Thank you again for that input - so although discharging near empty battery may seem "foolish" - can it really be the cause of 95% loss in life?
as posted before:


UnknownVT said:


> they are now all HIGH (internal resistance) in the Maha/PowerEX MH-C9000 and won't even discharge in that charger.


when the Maha/PowerEX C9000 displays HIGH the only operation available is discharge -and that shows DONE momentarily - 
in other words these 6 Ion-Core AA are kaput, dead, gone to see their maker, pushing up the daisies - as far as the Maha/PowerEX C9000 is concerned, I canNOT do anything in that charger...

The Opus BT-C3100 v2.1 does not seem to have a break-in cycle.

Just a thought - my seemingly foolish routine, is kind of like a "Refresh" cycle for every use of the battery -
Maha/PowerEX C9000 manual -






Opus BT-C3100 v2.1 manual -





Thanks.



Woods Walker said:


> I might....and state might be having issues with a Duraloop pro in my SC5W. Twice it was expectantly dead with drained battery. Only the very initial stages for investigation so nothing is ruled out.



Thanks for that input - just to confirm - these are the Duracell Ion-Core AA?
please let us know of any developments in your investigation?

Thank you,


----------



## xxo (Jun 30, 2016)

My guess is over-discharge is the cause. I'm thinking once your recorder depleted the cells, they probably had some time for their Voltage to recover a bit and then the charger would discharge them some more when they were already dead?



By any chance do you know the Voltage of of the cells when the recorder stops working?


----------



## UnknownVT (Jun 30, 2016)

xxo said:


> My guess is over-discharge is the cause. I'm thinking once your recorder depleted the cells, they probably had some time for their Voltage to recover a bit and then the charger would discharge them some more when they were already dead?
> 
> By any chance do you know the Voltage of of the cells when the recorder stops working?



Thank you - good thought - I had thought of that too.

Unfortunately I do not know at what voltage the recorder shuts down -
but the only mitigation is when I do go to discharge the voltages were always reasonable - ie: definitely above 1.09 volt 
(agreed, the batteries may have recovered their voltages) but they have always discharged by about 150-300mA.

The Opus BT-CT3100 v2.1 manual on Discharge Mode -




one of the critiques of the Opus is the trickle charge applied once 0.90V is reached -
in this one case that seems to show/guarantee that the batteries had never been below 0.90V.

[note: I have had one single Ion-Core AA (not these) show 0mAh on discharge - from being discovered "empty" in a flashlight -
so I am aware of, and am on the lookout for that - FWIW - that Ion-Core AA still seems to be fine - for now]

Thanks,


----------



## SilverFox (Jun 30, 2016)

Hello Vincent,

Interesting...

I have a set of the original Eneloop cells. I use them in a camera that rarely gets used. Recently I noticed that a couple of the cells (2 in use and 2 as a back up) developed higher resistance. 

My thought is that this has something to do with the low self discharge chemistry. There is a pacification layer that forms and my thought is that the balance has gotten a little off.

I am in the middle of this study so I don't know how well it will work out.

I charged the cells. Then discharged them. I noticed something like 300 - 600 mAh upon discharging at 200 mA in the C-9000.

This sucks...

I then put each cell into a single cell light, turned it on, and removed the cell the next day after the light had gone out. This is a deep discharge.

I then ran a Break-In and noticed that the capacity was back in the 1800 - 1900 mAh range. The next step was to do a full charge (no cells exhibited high internal resistance this time) followed by a discharge cycle. 

I still have good capacity.

The next step is to put them back into the camera and see if the low self discharge part is still functional.

I probably have somewhere in the neighborhood of 80 - 100 cycles on these cells. I usually give them a discharge/charge cycle every 6 months and every couple of years put them through the Break-In cycle.

I am surprised that my plan actually showed some improvement but time will tell if it actually restored the cells to their normal functionality.

Tom


----------



## UnknownVT (Jul 1, 2016)

SilverFox said:


> I have a set of the original Eneloop cells. I use them in a camera that rarely gets used. Recently I noticed that a couple of the cells (2 in use and 2 as a back up) developed higher resistance.
> 
> My thought is that this has something to do with the low self discharge chemistry. There is a pacification layer that forms and my thought is that the balance has gotten a little off.
> 
> ...



Thank you so much Tom/SilverFox. Great input.

Since these 6 Ion-Core AA were more or less kaput (C-9000 reads HIGH and won't do anything with them - even the Discharge just goes to "DONE")

I decided to try a manual refresh in the Opus BT-C31000 -
discharge at 0.2C or C/5 (=500mA) - this showed all the cells had "capacity" of well over 2000mAh -
but the internal resistance when measured at the discharged state dropped to about 250 milliohms - 
not good, but a lot better than the 500-800 range.

So I am charging them up 3 at a time at 1500mA the closest setting to C/2 in the Opus -
(I have 1.5 Opus chargers  - one fully working with 2 slots that can charge at 1500mA, and another where slot #1 does not work properly - so only one slot that can charge above 1000mA)
first three took in about 2500mAh - second 3 are still charging.

I'll check the internal resistance at fully charged, but when they've rested overnight.

Then I'll probably try the deep discharge for a pair and see if that will improve matters.

Thank you for that interesting input.


----------



## MidnightDistortions (Jul 1, 2016)

UnknownVT said:


> Thank you again for that input - so although discharging near empty battery may seem "foolish" - can it really be the cause of 95% loss in life?
> as posted before:
> 
> when the Maha/PowerEX C9000 displays HIGH the only operation available is discharge -and that shows DONE momentarily -
> ...





UnknownVT said:


> Thank you - good thought - I had thought of that too.
> 
> Unfortunately I do not know at what voltage the recorder shuts down -
> but the only mitigation is when I do go to discharge the voltages were always reasonable - ie: definitely above 1.09 volt
> ...



It could be a combination of factors, though discharging an already dead battery will shorten its life, which is actually over discharging the cell.


The next time you run these cells in your camera pull them out and wait a couple of hours. Record the voltage. You can also check the voltage when you pull them out. Anything under 1.2volts (resting charge) would be considered depleted. The lower that voltage is the less cycles or the more problems you'll have from the cells in the future. It also means you are draining the cells completely with the camera and putting another discharge further kills the cycles on the cell. Ironically if the cell reads higher than 1.2 volts then thats a pretty good sign the cells have HIGH IR. Higher the voltages the worse IR the cells have.

Another question, do you automatically recharge the cells when they have been dishcharged or do you wait? Reason is that if you let the cells recover for a couple of hours it may help to stabilize the cells to cool off and rest before you recharge them. And it may be the reason the C 9000 has a cooling off period in between charge/discharge cycles.


----------



## UnknownVT (Jul 1, 2016)

MidnightDistortions said:


> It could be a combination of factors, though discharging an already dead battery will shorten its life, which is actually over discharging the cell.
> 
> The next time you run these cells in your camera pull them out and wait a couple of hours. Record the voltage. You can also check the voltage when you pull them out. Anything under 1.2volts (resting charge) would be considered depleted. The lower that voltage is the less cycles or the more problems you'll have from the cells in the future. It also means you are draining the cells completely with the camera and putting another discharge further kills the cycles on the cell. Ironically if the cell reads higher than 1.2 volts then thats a pretty good sign the cells have HIGH IR. Higher the voltages the worse IR the cells have.



Thank you.

I'll accept that - 
I can understand what I was doing reducing the life by say 10-20% - but 95%?
but I'll bow to your authoritative input.



MidnightDistortions said:


> Another question, do you automatically recharge the cells when they have been dishcharged or do you wait? Reason is that if you let the cells recover for a couple of hours it may help to stabilize the cells to cool off and rest before you recharge them. And it may be the reason the C 9000 has a cooling off period in between charge/discharge cycles.



Always REST between discharge and charge as posted -



UnknownVT said:


> I thought my routine ought prolong the life of these batteries -
> 
> Use until the recorder shuts down -
> some hours after I get home -
> ...



Thank you


----------



## MidnightDistortions (Jul 1, 2016)

Oh one last thing, id try to charge them around 700-1000mah. 

If you fully discharge the cells once or twice it wont hurt them that much but if you're doing that all the time the capacity of the cells may drop. It also will increase the IR quicker. But as I said before it may just be a contributing factor. I dont think putting 1500ma into a dead battery would be good for it. I had a few cells cook from higher current rates when they were fully discharged. They were being charged at 500ma which they normally take but they were deeply discharged. The same cells wont do that at 500ma when they still have about 20% left in the cells.


----------



## TinderBox (UK) (Jul 1, 2016)

Has anybody tried the old freezing nimh battery`s for 24 hours trick, If the battery capacity will not improve after a few charge/discharge cycles even a break-in it`s ready to go in the recycling bin, I had some 5000mah C cells that were only giving 1800mah, I did the freeze trick (I discharged the battery before freezing) and then after a charge/discharge/charge cycle they were giving approx 4000mah.

Snake-Oil??

Anybody got an opinion?

John.


----------



## MidnightDistortions (Jul 3, 2016)

TinderBox (UK) said:


> Has anybody tried the old freezing nimh battery`s for 24 hours trick, If the battery capacity will not improve after a few charge/discharge cycles even a break-in it`s ready to go in the recycling bin, I had some 5000mah C cells that were only giving 1800mah, I did the freeze trick (I discharged the battery before freezing) and then after a charge/discharge/charge cycle they were giving approx 4000mah.
> 
> Snake-Oil??
> 
> ...



I've tried that and the cells IR got worse.

I'm also noticing cells with higher capacities often go bad quicker than cells that have lower capacity such as regular Eneloops. Actually just today i noticed one of my Enercells i got in 2013 (dated Aug 2011) is giving me 100% IR, the other one is about 80% and the 100% one is showing 2.3v in the C9000. They got intermittent usage. The cells are nearly 5 years old. I also have 2 other Enercells that are only around 1.6v and dated 2013. If they start exhibiting signs of high IR in a couple of years it may be that the higher capacities don't last very long. Duracell Ion Core advertises that they are guaranteed to last 5 years. My guess is that's with or without usage.


----------



## SilverFox (Jul 4, 2016)

Hello Vincent,

After 4 days I ran my cells through a discharge/charge cycle and they seem to be back to normal. Now I will let them go longer and see what happens.

Tom


----------



## UnknownVT (Jul 5, 2016)

SilverFox said:


> After 4 days I ran my cells through a discharge/charge cycle and they seem to be back to normal. Now I will let them go longer and see what happens.



Thanks Tom/SilverFox.

I tried the deep discharge - and that actually made the internal resistance Higher - so that didn't work for my cells.

I even tried the freeze for 24 hours from discharged state - and that also made the internal resistance higher, just as MidnightDistortions also found:



MidnightDistortions said:


> I've tried that and the cells IR got worse.
> 
> I'm also noticing cells with higher capacities often go bad quicker than cells that have lower capacity such as regular Eneloops. Actually just today i noticed one of my Enercells i got in 2013 (dated Aug 2011) is giving me 100% IR, the other one is about 80% and the 100% one is showing 2.3v in the C9000. They got intermittent usage. The cells are nearly 5 years old. I also have 2 other Enercells that are only around 1.6v and dated 2013. If they start exhibiting signs of high IR in a couple of years it may be that the higher capacities don't last very long. Duracell Ion Core advertises that they are guaranteed to last 5 years. My guess is that's with or without usage.



Agreed, the higher the capacity - the more the battery makers are trying cram into a finite space. 
So things like separators etc are thinner and more fragile - so the "ultra" high capacity cells are more prone to damage, less forgiving of abuse.

I guess these Duracell Ion-Core AA (re-badged Eneloop XX/Pro) are simply not as resilient as regular Eneloops -
with hindsight a rated life of 400 (Ion-Core) or 500 (Eneloop XX) cycles verses the 1800-2100 cycles of the regular Eneloops should have given me a clue...

It is ironic, in doing what I thought was "good" for the battery -



UnknownVT said:


> I thought my routine ought prolong the life of these batteries -
> 
> Use until the recorder shuts down -
> some hours after I get home -
> ...



I had possibly damaged and shortened the life-cycle by 95%!!!

Thanks all for your input - I'll just use the remaining Ion-Core AA -
count approx hours use and change before the recorder shuts down 
(although I am pretty sure the recorder does not take cells to unsafe low levels - they are in series)
and charge after rest without any additional discharge.

Thanks all for your input.


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## MidnightDistortions (Jul 5, 2016)

There may be some kind of date code on those Ion Core cells. I don't know how the older ones read but mine has 13 or 14 in the beginning I think which represents 2013 or 2014. I dont have the cells with me at the moment but part of the reason your cells may have high IR is age. Discharging the cells twice could just be that it accelerated the IR a bit. But again I have 2 Enercells from 2011 that one cell is 100% and then other cell jumped to about 93% high IR when I performed a break in. Sometimes you just have to bite the bullet and get new cells as they can just crap out on you regardless what you do. The high capacity cells degrade fast.


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## UserName (Nov 28, 2016)

Does anyone know if the current "ion core" AA and AAA are still believed to be the same as eneloop pros? 

I bought a pack of each the other day, and noticed they are now labeled at 2500mah (vs 2400) for the AA and 850mah (vs 800) for the AAA. Packaging and labeling looks the same. Cells, and the card in the package both said made in Japan. It's vaguely reminiscent of back in the day when duracell had "duraloops" available at 1900mah, and regular non-LSD cells at 2500 mah. The packaging back then looked almost the same. This are labled as precharged on the card, and "stay charged" on the cell itself.


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## RI Chevy (Nov 28, 2016)

I believe you are correct. They are Eneloop Pro's. 
Also less times for recharging as well.


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## UnknownVT (Nov 29, 2016)

UserName said:


> Does anyone know if the current "ion core" AA and AAA are still believed to be the same as eneloop pros?
> 
> I bought a pack of each the other day, and noticed they are now labeled at 2500mah (vs 2400) for the AA and 850mah (vs 800) for the AAA. Packaging and labeling looks the same. Cells, and the card in the package both said made in Japan. It's vaguely reminiscent of back in the day when duracell had "duraloops" available at 1900mah, and regular non-LSD cells at 2500 mah. The packaging back then looked almost the same. This are labled as precharged on the card, and "stay charged" on the cell itself.





RI Chevy said:


> I believe you are correct. They are Eneloop Pro's.
> Also less times for recharging as well.



The consensus so far -

Ion-Core AAs are Eneloop Pro/XX

Ion-Core AAAs are regular plain eneloops - 
the 850mAh shows they are the latest versions.
(eneloop Pro AAA are 950mAh)


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