# A Collection Of Runtime Graphs



## BigWaffles (Dec 18, 2008)

Hi all from a longtime lurker. :wave:

I've finally decided to take the plunge and try to give back some info to this site after soaking up so much from the posts.

I recently constructed a light box (courtesy of flashlightreviews.com) and just finished runtime graphs on most of my lights. I would like to post the data (.xls format) and am not sure how best to proceed. I have a bunch of 1.5Mb spreadsheets that include the raw LUX data from a datalogging meter and graphs. What I need to know is where/how to post them.

Would these be posted in the Reviews forum or General? Also, what is the best way to attach/link to a spreadsheet?

Thanks in advance for any advice and keep the information flowing.


C.P.T.


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## Kiessling (Dec 18, 2008)

*Re: Wan't to post some runtime graphs*

Hi and welcome to CPF ! :wave:

Cool project, runtimes are always welcome here.

As to your questions:

Attachments are not possible on CPF, you'll have to host the files elsewhere and link them here.

You can post a pic of a table or of runtime graphs, but I doubt that the software can display spreadsheets made of raw data.

I think showing the result of the data is better anyway, since a lot of raw numbers are difficult to grasp. For me, at least 

bernie


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## EngrPaul (Dec 18, 2008)

*Re: Wan't to post some runtime graphs*

:welcome:

Plot in xls, do screen capture, paste in photo program, crop, save as png, host on photobucket free.

That's my method.

However, I'd appreciate the raw data too, if it works somehow.


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## BigWaffles (Dec 18, 2008)

*Re: Want to post some runtime graphs*

Mods, feel free to relocate this thread if necessary. Thanks.

Ok, here's how I'll do it: I'll post each graph seperately with explanations and questions I have about the results. Also, I'll offer the raw data to anybody who requests it in .xls or .txt format.

First a little explanation about the graphs:

1. All graph values are in LUX on the vertical and Minutes on the horizontal.
2. The graphs start with the first usable reading and run untill 500Lux or 50%, whichever is lower. I chose 500Lux as a low for the graphs as this is the minimum amount of light I consider usable for most applications.
3. These are standard Excel graphs pasted into paint and then saved as .jpg files.

Ok, as soon as I figure out how to post pics I'll get started.


C.P.T.


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## BigWaffles (Dec 19, 2008)

*Re: Want to post some runtime graphs*

I'll start out with the venerable Surefire 6P with the standard P60 module.







Not sure about the initial bounce (batteries?) but it made over 1 hour until 50% on Surefire primaries.

I'll post more as I get them uploaded.

C.P.T.


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## BigWaffles (Dec 19, 2008)

*Re: Want to post some runtime graphs*

I'll post one more for tonight and give the Mods time to approve them.

Here is the Surefire 6PL with the P60L module on Surefire primaries.






The 2008 Surefire catalog states 11hrs runtime on this light, but I think that's until exhaustion. As you can see, I got almost 4hrs of regulated runtime and then shut it off at just over 5.5hrs at 500Lux. It might still have been lit at 11hrs but I don't think I'd want to try to navigate with it.

Has anybody measured longer than 4hrs regulated runtime on one of these?

Later.

C.P.T.


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## BigWaffles (Dec 19, 2008)

*Re: Want to post some runtime graphs*

EngrPaul
Let me know if you want data in the raw .txt dumps from the datalogger or in the .xls format (1.5Mb each). I have runtime graphs on the following and can e-mail what you want.

6P-P60
6P-P60L
A2-Incan
A2-LED
Bolt 2A
Bolt 3A
E2L - High
E2L - Low
G3-P60L
G3-P90
G3-P91
Mag 3D Mag LED
Mini-Mag - Incan
Mini-Mag – Mag LED
Mini-Mag - Niteize 3LED

C.P.T.


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## parnass (Dec 19, 2008)

*Re: Want to post some runtime graphs*

The graphs look good, BigWaffles. Thanks for posting them.

I will be interested to see the E2L and Bolt runtime graphs.


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## Burgess (Dec 19, 2008)

*Re: Want to post some runtime graphs*

Hello BigWaffles --


Welcome to CandlePowerForums !


:welcome:



Thank you for your lovely Run-Time Graphs.


That's something we can never get enough of, here at CPF.

:thumbsup:


I, for one, would *love* to see all 3 of your Mini-Maglite graphs. 


For the incand. Mini-Mag, can you tell us the *color-band* of the Lamp ?
That's how to identify "which" type of Bulb you have.
Believe it goes: Pink (original), Green (next), and Black (newest version)



Can you tell us, specifically, what device you employ
to measure & capture the Run-Time data ?


Thank you for your time and efforts.

:goodjob::thanks:
_


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## BigWaffles (Dec 19, 2008)

*Re: Want to post some runtime graphs*

Burgess
The Mini-Mag was a Black Band. I'll reiterate this on the graph when I post it.

All measurements were taken with an Extech Datalogging Light Meter, Model 401036. I connected it to a laptop to log the data for the longer runs.

I made a light box constructed with instructions found on FlashlightReviews.com -http://www.flashlightreviews.com/features/lightbox_output.htm

The only difference in the light box was that I put my sensor on the side with the baffle and my lights in the end.

Hope this helps.


C.P.T.


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## BigWaffles (Dec 19, 2008)

*Re: Want to post some runtime graphs*

Here is my second favorite light, the Surefire A2 with white LEDs. This graph is of the Incan & LEDs on Surefire Primaries.






Some interesting regulation on the Incan. Mine cut off at appx. 45min after which the LEDs didn't last very long.


C.P.T.


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## BigWaffles (Dec 19, 2008)

*Re: Want to post some runtime graphs*

And here is the same A2 on LED only with fresh Surefire primaries.






Again, I think Surefire rates their runtime until exhaustion. I hit 50% at 15.5hrs. I'm sure it would still be lit at 20hrs but not very usable.


C.P.T.


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## BigWaffles (Dec 19, 2008)

*Re: Want to post some runtime graphs*

Here is the Inova Bolt 2A on Energizer Alkalines.






This light and the Bolt 3A are my go to lights for around the house. I was a bit dissapointed in the 2A runtime, I was hoping for closer to 3hrs. I'll have to re-test it with different brand batteries. Has anybody had different experience with the runtime of this light?


C.P.T.


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## BigWaffles (Dec 19, 2008)

*Re: Want to post some runtime graphs*

Here is the Inova Bolt 3A with Energizer Alkalines.






This is a great light for working on computer equipment. The rubber grip makes it easy to hold in your mouth and the beam seems spot on for close work.

Some interesting jitters in the graph. Not sure what the driver circuit is doing but it doesn't seem noticable in the beam.


C.P.T.


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## BigWaffles (Dec 19, 2008)

*Re: Want to post some runtime graphs*

And now to my favorite light, the Surefire E2L. This graph is of the High level with Surefire Primaries.






I purchased this light about 4 months ago and it has been my EDC ever since. The regulated runtime is every bit as advertised (6hrs) and it even ran an additional 90min after it dropped out. Very usable light for low speed trail navigation in the dark and general purpose.


C.P.T.


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## BigWaffles (Dec 19, 2008)

*Re: Want to post some runtime graphs*

And here is the same E2L on Low with Surefire Primaries.






This is why I EDC this light. Just over 63hrs regulated runtime of very usable light. Unfortunately, from the way the output fell after dropping out of regulation, I highly doubt this would make the claimed 100hrs runtime. If it did, I don't think you'd be able to see the light with your bare eyes.

Has anybody had a different experience with this light?


C.P.T.


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## parnass (Dec 19, 2008)

*Re: Want to post some runtime graphs*

BigWaffles, thanks for posting the additional runtime graphs.


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## BigWaffles (Dec 19, 2008)

*Re: Want to post some runtime graphs*

Ok, onto the G3 series. Here is the G3L with the P60L LED on Surefire Primaries.






A good general purpose light. Regulated runtime was spot on at just over 5.5hrs with an additional 2hrs of usable light after falling out of regulation.


C.P.T.


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## BigWaffles (Dec 19, 2008)

*Re: Want to post some runtime graphs*

Here is the G3 with the P90 Incan on Surefire Primaries.






This light shows the same initial bounce as the 6P with a P60 Incan. Again, not sure if its something in the batteries or just the way Surefire Incans work.

Runtime was good, lasting appx. 70min to 50% with an additional 30min of usable light.


C.P.T.


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## BigWaffles (Dec 19, 2008)

*Re: Want to post some runtime graphs*

Here is the G3 with the High Output P91 lamp.






I was a little disappointed with the runtime on this one. Surefire claims 20min and mine died at just over 14. I noticed that the batteries were VERY hot when this was run (probably due to the high drain). Would an aluminum 9P body dissapate the heat better and give longer runtime?

All in all, the additional 6 minutes isn't a big factor. I only use the P91 lamp when I need to scan a hillside; looking for the best way down or to find camp. It rarely gets used for more than a few minutes at a time.


C.P.T.


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## BigWaffles (Dec 19, 2008)

*Re: Want to post some runtime graphs*

That's all the Surefires for now. Lets move onto the Maglites.

Here is the graph of a 3D Maglite with the Mag LED drop-in. I'm using Energizer Alkalines.







This bugger ran for 35hrs to 50% with a total of 51.5hrs of usable light.

Currently, this light is my heavy hitter. I know it doesn't compare to some of the 'brighter' lights out there but it will throw a lot of light and it comes in a heavy package. I have several of these around the house and keep one in the truck. With the Niteize drop-in (not yet tested) in the tailcap it makes a great emergency light where batteries might be in short supply.


C.P.T.


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## BigWaffles (Dec 19, 2008)

*Re: Want to post some runtime graphs*

Here is the first of several Mini-Mag graphs. This is the standard Mini-Mag with the stock Incan and the Black band on the bulb. I used Energizer Alkalines.






Pretty pathetic when you think about it.:sick2:


C.P.T.


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## BigWaffles (Dec 19, 2008)

*Re: Want to post some runtime graphs*

Here is the Mini-Mag LED with Energizer Alkalines.






Just under 3hrs to 50% which is also when it dies.:thumbsdow Very disappointing. I'll be giving this light to a family member.


C.P.T.


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## BigWaffles (Dec 20, 2008)

*Re: Want to post some runtime graphs*

Here is the last Mini-Mag graph for now. This is a Mini-Mag with the Niteize 3LED drop-in running on Energizer Alkalines.






I got a little over 7hrs to 50% with the total being appx. 8.5hrs. Good, but not what I thought it would deliver. FlashlightReviews.com charted this at 11hrs to 50% with Duracell batteries. I may need to re-run this test with different brand batteries to find the differences.

Has anybody else tested this drop-in?


C.P.T.


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## Illum (Dec 20, 2008)

*Re: Want to post some runtime graphs*

Not only do these runtime graphs of yours answer alot of age old questions many of us have asked regarding runtimes, but runtime tests are generally quite rare and when available are often praised upon with high honors.

cheers to you and your work BigWaffles:twothumbs


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## BigWaffles (Dec 20, 2008)

*Re: Want to post some runtime graphs*

That's it for now, hopefully you'll find this information useful. As stated, the .xls or .txt files are available for PM or I can post them somewhere for download if someone has suggestions on how to do this.

I have a few more tests planned for the near future. I want to graph the following:

Inova X5 white
Mag 3D Stock Incan
Mag 3D with Niteize drop-in
Mini-Mag with SMJLED drop-in

I'll post these graphs as I get them.

Thanks for the support.


C.P.T.


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## Kiessling (Dec 20, 2008)

*Re: Want to post some runtime graphs*

Thank you very much !!! :bow:
Really appreciate the work here !!

The strange looking graphs from the incans should be the warm-up time of the batteries as those work better when warm/hot, and this give more output in the unregulated incan environment.

bernie


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## crocodilo (Dec 20, 2008)

*Re: Want to post some runtime graphs*

Fantastic work, many thanks for what you have put into these. They are very usefull, as I am a believer that runtime, and not brightness, is what makes the true difference between having or not having light.


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## RobertM (Dec 20, 2008)

*Re: Want to post some runtime graphs*

Thanks for the excellent runtime graphs BigWaffles! Your work is very much appreciated! :twothumbs


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## adirondackdestroyer (Dec 20, 2008)

*Re: Want to post some runtime graphs*

Awesome graphs! The 3D MagLED is pretty impressive, especially for someone who just wants a nice flashlight.


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## etc (Dec 21, 2008)

*Re: Want to post some runtime graphs*

> Mini-Mag with SMJLED drop-in

All sounds very interesting, the above would be appreciated.


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## Size15's (Dec 21, 2008)

*Re: Want to post some runtime graphs*

Thank you for the runtime graphs - they are very helpful in demonstrating the constant-on runtime characteristics of flashlights - giving us a better understanding of what we can expect :thumbsup:


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## etc (Dec 21, 2008)

*Re: Want to post some runtime graphs*

This raises one question, if many instant-ons for a few secs have a different runtime characteristics from constant-on for a few hours.


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## kosPap (Dec 21, 2008)

*Re: Want to post some runtime graphs*

bigwaffles,

thanks for the effort and result..

Now you need a website to host them...


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## nzbazza (Dec 21, 2008)

*Re: Want to post some runtime graphs*

Bigwaffles,

A big thank you for the excellent work. Runtime graphs are gold around here! :twothumbs


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## Kiessling (Dec 21, 2008)

*Re: Want to post some runtime graphs*



etc said:


> This raises one question, if many instant-ons for a few secs have a different runtime characteristics from constant-on for a few hours.



Yes. You get less total runtime with intermittent activation. However, I have no idea how this would be if the light in question is driven very low an ddoes not heat up at all.

bernie


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## BigWaffles (Dec 21, 2008)

*Re: Want to post some runtime graphs*



Kiessling said:


> Yes. You get less total runtime with intermittent activation. However, I have no idea how this would be if the light in question is driven very low an ddoes not heat up at all.
> 
> bernie


 


etc said:


> This raises one question, if many instant-ons for a few secs have a different runtime characteristics from constant-on for a few hours.


 
The only way I know of to test this is to make a timer controlled relay that would control the switch. You could set it for 5-10min on to run the LED while it is hot and not thermal-regulated and then 15-20min off to let it cool down. Keep this up until the batteries die.

Maybe I'll look into that when I'm finished with these last few graphs.


C.P.T.


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## Kiessling (Dec 21, 2008)

*Re: Want to post some runtime graphs*

If you really want to invest all that time, then you should monitor the battery's temperature as it is those that benefit from warmth while the LED suffers. It see,s though that the benefit of the hot batteries outweighs the drawbacks with the LEDs.


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## 22hornet (Dec 21, 2008)

*Re: Want to post some runtime graphs*

Hello,
thanks a lot for the graphs :twothumbs.
Concerning the Inova Bolt 2AAA, does it drop as does the 2AA?
This because your graph ends abruptly .

Kind regards,
Joris


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## BigWaffles (Dec 21, 2008)

*Re: Want to post some runtime graphs*

Ok. Here's a few more graphs. This is the Inova X5 with Surefire primaries.






Almost 5hrs to 50% and quite a bit of runtime after that. Depending on how low you want to go, it will just keep running. I can see why a lot of people use these lights to finish off batteries that are too low for other lights.


C.P.T.


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## BigWaffles (Dec 21, 2008)

*Re: Want to post some runtime graphs*



22hornet said:


> Hello,
> thanks a lot for the graphs :twothumbs.
> Concerning the Inova Bolt 2AAA, does it drop as does the 2AA?
> This because your graph ends abruptly .
> ...


 
22hornet
Yes, the Bolt 3A dropped suddenly appx. 7min after the graph ended (3h14m total time). 

I stopped all my graphs at 500Lux for consistancy. I consider that the lowest usable light for myself in an outdoor environment. Indoor use or outdoors in the snow could go considerably lower as snow and white walls can greatly enhance a low level light.


C.P.T.


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## BigWaffles (Dec 21, 2008)

*Re: Want to post some runtime graphs*

Here is one I forgot in the original run, the Mag 3D with stock Incan (1G4). This is using Energizer Alkalines.







1h50m to 50% and downhill from there.


C.P.T.


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## BigWaffles (Dec 21, 2008)

*Re: Want to post some runtime graphs*

Last one for a while. This is a Mini-Mag with a Niteize 1W single LED drop-in on Energizer Alkalines.






A good combination of brightness and runtime, just over 7hrs to 50% and 8.5hrs total. Its almost twice as bright as the Nitize 3LED drop-in and runs 12min shorter to 500Lux. So far, the best upgrade for a Mini-Mag that I've found (haven't fully tested the SMJLEDs yet).

I'm currently testing the Niteize Mag 3D LED drop-in. I should have a graph by the end of the week. Later.


C.P.T.


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## BigWaffles (Dec 25, 2008)

*Re: Want to post some runtime graphs*

OK, here is the Mag 3D with a Niteize 10mm LED drop-in. This is running on Energizer Alkalines.






Don't know what else to say but :wow:. This ran for 90hrs before falling off and it made 92+ hrs before hitting 50%. Granted, it's not a superbright light, but it's definately a battery saver for long term use.
Edit: This is the Nitieze drop-in I tested.
http://www.niteize.com/productdetail.php?category_id=28&product_id=127


C.P.T.


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## seale_navy (Dec 25, 2008)

*Re: Want to post some runtime graphs*

thanks for doing this type of review its really useful ...more models of the surefire would be great such as the E1B and the E2DL runtime graphs. and then this thread will be the premier dedicated runtime graph resources....


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## Bullzeyebill (Dec 25, 2008)

*Re: Want to post some runtime graphs*

Interesting comparing the 6PL and the E2L. They are showing about same lux, 6500, with the E2L lasting two hours longer in regulation, both using two SF CR123's. 

Bill


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## Burgess (Dec 26, 2008)

*Re: Want to post some runtime graphs*

Wow ! :thumbsup:


Thank you, BigWaffles, for performing a Run-Time test

which took no less than *FOUR DAYS *to complete ! ! !


:wow::goodjob::thanks:
_


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## BigWaffles (Dec 26, 2008)

*Re: Want to post some runtime graphs*

We're down to appx. 4hrs of sunlight at this time of year (6.5hrs of daylight). What better time to run a 4 day runtime test?

Sunrise: 10:56am
Sunset: 2:45pm
Civil Twilight: 9:32am - 4:09PM


C.P.T.


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## BigWaffles (Dec 26, 2008)

*Re: Want to post some runtime graphs*



seale_navy said:


> thanks for doing this type of review its really useful ...more models of the surefire would be great such as the E1B and the E2DL runtime graphs. and then this thread will be the premier dedicated runtime graph resources....


 
If your're willing to donate a few lights...

I wish I had a few more Surefire models to test, kinda fun. For now I'll just have to be happy with what my wallet will allow me to get.


C.P.T.


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## BigWaffles (Dec 26, 2008)

*Re: Want to post some runtime graphs*

Ok, here is the last one I have for now. This is a Mini-Mag with the SMJLED puck (I think that's what it's called) running on Energizer alkalines. The horizontal scale is in hours.






Not sure what to make of this graph. I would be totally impressed with this drop-in if it weren't for the initial screwyness; but waiting 2 hours for your light to level out won't cut it for most people. I tried this with 2 different pucks in 2 different Mini-Mag hosts with similar results.

These SMJLED pucks were purchased from Lighthound. I've read that the ones from the Sandwich Shoppe, although they look identical, are in fact different. I'm going to order one and run another test. Maybe it will have a smother graph. It will probably be a couple of weeks before I have that one posted. Later.


C.P.T.


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## Stereodude (Dec 26, 2008)

*Re: Want to post some runtime graphs*



BigWaffles said:


> OK, here is the Mag 3D with a Niteize LED drop-in. This is running on Energizer Alkalines.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Is that this drop-in?

I'm not sure I'd call it's output useful at any point in the batteries life. :shakehead


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## BigWaffles (Dec 26, 2008)

*Re: Want to post some runtime graphs*



Stereodude said:


> Is that this drop-in?
> 
> I'm not sure I'd call it's output useful at any point in the batteries life. :shakehead


 
Yes, that's the correct drop-in. As I mentioned, it's not super bright (ok, not very bright at all), but it is sufficient for around the house, allowing you to save the brighter lights for intermittent use as needed. I keep one of these in my tailcap for true, long-term ermergency use.


C.P.T.


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## slick228 (Jan 9, 2009)

*Re: Want to post some runtime graphs*

Thank you, BigWaffles. The graphs that you provided us are invaluable. I'm surprised that no one asked or requested for a high and low run time chart for the new 2-stage SureFire E1L. It would be an interesting comparison to your 2-stage E2L.


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## BigWaffles (Jan 10, 2009)

*Re: Want to post some runtime graphs*

Thanks all for the positive feedback. :thumbsup: 

I finally got a Fenix E01 for my keychain (I know, a little late to the party) and here is the graph. This is running on an Energizer Ultimate Lithium AAA.






Awesome runtime for a single AAA light with good regulation. A sturdy build with nice useable output. A very good value at $15.00.


C.P.T.


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## seale_navy (Jan 10, 2009)

*Re: Want to post some runtime graphs*

yeah a review of the E1L outdoorman would be nice...

anyway know where i can find the runtime graph for surefire L4? all review i found its not the lastest L4 with 100 lumens.


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## Size15's (Jan 10, 2009)

*Re: Want to post some runtime graphs*



seale_navy said:


> anyway know where i can find the runtime graph for surefire L4? all review i found its not the lastest L4 with 100 lumens.


I'd be interested to know how this turns out. There should be no difference between them since there was no change - only that SureFire determined that 100 lumens was a more appropriate rating as a result of extensive testing of production units.

Al


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## BigWaffles (Jan 10, 2009)

*Re: Want to post some runtime graphs*

Unfortunately I'm all out of Surefires to test, maybe someone else will chime in. I'd also be curios to see how the E1L stacks up.


C.P.T.


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## Illum (Jan 11, 2009)

*Re: Want to post some runtime graphs*



BigWaffles said:


> Unfortunately I'm all out of Surefires to test, maybe someone else will chime in. I'd also be curios to see how the E1L stacks up.
> 
> 
> C.P.T.


 
Would you prefer certain surefires to be mailed to you for testing instead?


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## BigWaffles (Jan 11, 2009)

*Re: Want to post some runtime graphs*



Illum_the_nation said:


> Would you prefer certain surefires to be mailed to you for testing instead?


 
That's a definite possibility. It's also quite a leap of faith to mail a quality light to a newcomer here on the forums. I don't want to squash the idea but I think I'd be almost as nervous accepting the light as the person mailing it.

If someone else wants to check runtimes maybe I could mail the test box and light meter to a more established member? There would be a lot more members here that could vouch for them. 

Definitely a line of thought worth pursuing.


C.P.T.


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## Burgess (Jan 13, 2009)

*Re: Want to post some runtime graphs*

to BigWaffles --


Don't sell yer'self short, my friend . . . .


With your *excellent* Run-Time Graphs,
you've quickly established yourself here on CPF.


:twothumbs :goodjob:


We look forward to seeing whatever else you are willing to provide.


Oh, but could you *please* use a _slightly Larger Font_ 
in your graphs ?


My eyes aren't as young as they used to be.


Thank you for your efforts, time, and dedication !


:thanks:
_


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## Phaserburn (Jan 13, 2009)

*Re: Want to post some runtime graphs*

Love these graphs, BW!

Subscribed!

:twothumbs


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## etc (Jan 14, 2009)

*Re: Want to post some runtime graphs*



BigWaffles said:


> OK, here is the Mag 3D with a Niteize LED drop-in. This is running on Energizer Alkalines.
> 
> Don't know what else to say but :wow:. This ran for 90hrs before falling off and it made 92+ hrs before hitting 50%. Granted, it's not a superbright light, but it's definately a battery saver for long term use.
> 
> ...



I think I expected more from 3D with Nite-Ize... but it's not bad. I have a 4D with Niteize.


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## PCC (Jan 14, 2009)

*Re: Want to post some runtime graphs*

Yeah, but keep in mind that it took 92 hours to reach 50%. How much longer would it run after that down to, say, 25%? Then again, would there even be enough light at 50% to make it worth your while to see it through to 25%?:candle:

You can kind of extrapolate that a 4D Mag would run around 120 hours to 50% and have more kick to actually be able to use it to probably 30% or so of usable light.


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## etc (Jan 15, 2009)

*Re: Want to post some runtime graphs*

Good point...


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## jasonsmaglites (Jan 16, 2009)

*Re: Want to post some runtime graphs*

awesome graphs. thanks for your hard work. do you have any interest in plotting a terralux 3d runtime graph. that would be invaluable for those questions we get from noobies 99% of the time "need dropin for my mag-lite". even non-noobs want to know...

https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/219552


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## milox (Jan 16, 2009)

*Re: Want to post some runtime graphs*

Thanks for great graphs.


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## jasonsmaglites (Jan 16, 2009)

*Re: Want to post some runtime graphs*



PCC said:


> Yeah, but keep in mind that it took 92 hours to reach 50%. How much longer would it run after that down to, say, 25%? Then again, would there even be enough light at 50% to make it worth your while to see it through to 25%?:candle:
> 
> You can kind of extrapolate that a 4D Mag would run around 120 hours to 50% and have more kick to actually be able to use it to probably 30% or so of usable light.




that light is already only pulling around 10-20 ma, once it goes down even a little bit, its because the batteries are spent, not low. i do not believe there will be an extra runtime after that point. the entire life of this low power bulb is a moon mode! lol


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## Cydonia (Jan 16, 2009)

*Re: Want to post some runtime graphs*

Yes, great run time graphs! That 1 watt Nite Ize (or TerraLux TLE-1F) looks like an ideal low level mega run time item to store in a Maglite tail cap. 
I'll have to get one - those 10mm NiteIze are very blue and dim.


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## BigWaffles (Jan 17, 2009)

*Re: Want to post some runtime graphs*



jasonsmaglites said:


> awesome graphs. thanks for your hard work. do you have any interest in plotting a terralux 3d runtime graph. that would be invaluable for those questions we get from noobies 99% of the time "need dropin for my mag-lite". even non-noobs want to know...


 
Let me scrounge one up and see what I can do. I've been kind of curious about the Terralux myself.


Edit: Looks like there are a couple of options:

140+ Lumens - http://www.batteryjunction.com/tle-6exb.html

50 Lumens - http://www.batteryjunction.com/tle-1f.html

WTH, I'll order one of each. 


C.P.T.


----------



## jasonsmaglites (Jan 17, 2009)

*Re: Want to post some runtime graphs*

big waffles, i can either loan you one of my terralux or sell you one with free shipping. feel around for donated lights/bulbs cause we all want to see the graphs so we're willing to pitch in however we can.


----------



## BigWaffles (Jan 18, 2009)

*Re: Want to post some runtime graphs*

Jasonmaglites, 

Thanks for the offer, but I already ordered one of each. While looking at the Terraluxes on Battery Junction I found a 1W Niteize drop-in for the Maglites.

http://www.niteize.com/productdetail.php?category_id=28&product_id=166

I hadn't seen this one before so I threw one in the basket. The Niteize and both Terraluxes should be here by the end of next week.

I've been waffling a while on the Malkoff's and after reading some comments I finally decided to order a couple. I have an M60LL for the 6P and a 4D Mag drop-in on the way. Hopefully my LUX meter is strong enough to measure the Mag 4D with a Malkoff. :naughty:

This is too much fun.


C.P.T.


----------



## BigWaffles (Jan 18, 2009)

*Re: Want to post some runtime graphs*



Burgess said:


> to BigWaffles --
> ...Oh, but could you *please* use a _slightly Larger Font_
> in your graphs ?
> 
> My eyes aren't as young as they used to be..._


 
Burgess,

I remade one of the earlier graphs with a larger font but it was reduced in size when I uploaded it to Photobucket. You migh be able to right-click and do a Save Picture As and then zoom in on it in a picture viewer. I'll keep trying with the font. Also, if there is a specific graph that you want I could PM it to you.



Cydonia said:


> Yes, great run time graphs! That 1 watt Nite Ize (or TerraLux TLE-1F) looks like an ideal low level mega run time item to store in a Maglite tail cap.
> I'll have to get one - those 10mm NiteIze are very blue and dim.


 
Cydonia,

The Niteize that I graphed was the 10mm one (I've updated the post to reflect this). I have a 1W Niteize drop-in on order and should have it by the end of next week. I've also ordered one of the TerraLuxes. Are they the same drop-in?


C.P.T.


----------



## jaundice (Jan 23, 2009)

*Re: Want to post some runtime graphs*

Big Waffles;

This is awesome stuff! :twothumbs Great job! 

Is there any chance you could test the Surefire E1L?

Thanks!

-John


----------



## Illum (Jan 24, 2009)

*Re: Want to post some runtime graphs*

provided someone supply him with a E1L to test with...anything from that standpoint is possible


----------



## cree_buyer (Jan 24, 2009)

*Re: Want to post some runtime graphs*

:bow: @ BigWaffles for the super duper graphs that actually includes LUX readings! Genius - Pure Genius! I'm curious what kinda light meter you are using... cheers :thumbsup:

*edit: Extech Datalogging Light Meter, Model 401036


----------



## BigWaffles (Jan 24, 2009)

*Re: Want to post some runtime graphs*



jaundice said:


> Big Waffles;
> 
> This is awesome stuff! :twothumbs Great job!
> 
> ...


 

Thanks for the encouragement but I don't own an E1L. Sorry.


C.P.T.


----------



## BigWaffles (Jan 24, 2009)

*Re: Want to post some runtime graphs*



Burgess said:


> to BigWaffles --
> 
> Oh, but could you *please* use a _slightly Larger Font_
> in your graphs ?
> ...


 
Burgess,

I played with the graphs and ran the font size up to 16. Unfortunatley, by the time they were converted for Photobucket and reposted, the size increase didn't do much. The first 2 graphs on page one of this post are the bigger size. I can't see where it made a difference. :shrug:


Does anybody know a better way to post a full size graph without any loss in definition? Somebody earlier mentioned hosting a web page, I'm not sure how to go about doing that. If I could figure it out, I'd be able to post not only the full sized graphs, but the raw data as well. Thoughts? 

Thanks.

P.S. Still waiting for the TerraLuxes from BatteryJunction. :sigh: 


C.P.T.


----------



## Cydonia (Jan 24, 2009)

*Re: Want to post some runtime graphs*



BigWaffles said:


> Cydonia,
> 
> The Niteize that I graphed was the 10mm one (I've updated the post to reflect this). I have a 1W Niteize drop-in on order and should have it by the end of next week. I've also ordered one of the TerraLuxes. Are they the same drop-in?



Someone here said that the TerraLux and Nite Ize 1W drop in's were the exact same thing. Thanks to you we shall know for sure soon enough! :thumbsup:
They'll show up early next week I bet... 
I've got the "newer" and bluer 10mm Nite Ize's in several Mag tail caps as back up long run time options. 
They draw around 120ma if I remember correctly...


----------



## Bullzeyebill (Jan 24, 2009)

*Re: Want to post some runtime graphs*



BigWaffles said:


> Burgess,
> 
> I played with the graphs and ran the font size up to 16. Unfortunatley, by the time they were converted for Photobucket and reposted, the size increase didn't do much. The first 2 graphs on page one of this post are the bigger size. I can't see where it made a difference. :shrug:
> 
> ...



Here is an example of a link to a fellow CPF'ers spread sheets. Scroll down to third paragraph. He zipped his files then had them hosted. Might contact him

Bill

Whooops lost link.

Here it is. https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/89607

Bill


----------



## Burgess (Jan 25, 2009)

*Re: Want to post some runtime graphs*

to BigWaffles --


Thank you for making that change. (Font Size)


Yes, it IS an improvement. :twothumbs


Just compare the X-axis labels on the graphs
in post # 6 versus post # 11.


In post # 6, the times are actually* readable* !

(even by *me* !) 


Thank you, BigWaffles ! 


Oh, and it's really not essential
to change your *existing* graphs . . . .


Just for all of 'em you'll be doing *in the future* !




:thanks::goodjob::wow:

_


----------



## Illum (Jan 25, 2009)

*Re: Want to post some runtime graphs*

We need to have a separate thread that consolidates the lights forum members want runtimes of, and from there we-who-have-the-lights will know how to manage our resources to get these runtimes done. 

We have sufficient accumulations in reviews of lights in terms of beamshots, what we should establish is a database of runtimes. Quickbeam, this_is_nascar, and Chevrofreak, et al have done an outstanding job thus far, followed by bigwaffles, but Quickbeam has retired and Chevrofreak is...well

EDIT:I've confirmed via PM that BigWaffles is in the US, so if theres any requests of runtimes with lights I can spare I'll send mine over


----------



## Bullzeyebill (Jan 25, 2009)

*Re: Want to post some runtime graphs*

I agree. We need a runtimes forum, or a runtimes sub forum in the Reviews Forum, where individual testers would have their own thread. One place to go to get info.

Bill


----------



## BigWaffles (Jan 26, 2009)

*Re: Want to post some runtime graphs*



Illum_the_nation said:


> We need to have a separate thread that consolidates the lights forum members want runtimes of, and from there we-who-have-the-lights will know how to manage our resources to get these runtimes done.


 
Good idea, a wish list for lights to test. :twothumbs



Bullzeyebill said:


> I agree. We need a runtimes forum, or a runtimes sub forum in the Reviews Forum, where individual testers would have their own thread. One place to go to get info.
> 
> Bill


 
I like that idea, I had to direct-link to this thread as I kept losing it.


C.P.T.


----------



## BigWaffles (Jan 26, 2009)

*Re: Want to post some runtime graphs*

For those of you awaiting the runtime tests of the Terralux drop-ins for the 3D Maglite...they came in the mail today.  Testing will start tonight with graphs to follow.

I received one each of the following:

http://www.batteryjunction.com/tle-6exb.html

http://www.batteryjunction.com/tle-1f.html

http://www.niteize.com/productdetail.php?category_id=28&product_id=166

I'll post individual graphs as they finish. When I have them all, I'll try to set up a combined graph that shows all the drop-ins I've tested for the 3D Maglites.

Also, I'll see if I can get a combined graph for all the Mini-Mag options I've tested.

Off to the test bench. 


C.P.T.


----------



## BigWaffles (Jan 28, 2009)

*Re: Want to post some runtime graphs*

Here is the first of the 2 Terraluxes that I have. This is the Terralux TLE-6EXB in a Maglite 3D host with Energizer Alkalines.







Looks like it has a case of the jitters at several points in the graph but has good output for 10 hours.

This is the Terralux TLE-6EXB. Details here:

http://www.batteryjunction.com/tle-6exb.html

This is a funky looking drop-in that replaces both the lamp and screw ring in the Maglite. The whole Terralux module screws into the base.

C.P.T.


----------



## 22hornet (Jan 28, 2009)

*Re: Want to post some runtime graphs*

Hello,
Thanks a lot for this runtime graph for the TLE-6EXB :twothumbs.
Btw: was the unit hot after the runtime test?

Kind regards,
Joris


----------



## BigWaffles (Jan 29, 2009)

*Re: Want to post some runtime graphs*



22hornet said:


> Hello,
> Thanks a lot for this runtime graph for the TLE-6EXB :twothumbs.
> Btw: was the unit hot after the runtime test?
> 
> ...


 
Joris,

You're welcome. Not sure about the module being hot, I ran the test overnight and it was pretty much dead when I woke up. Sorry.


C.P.T.


----------



## Burgess (Jan 29, 2009)

*Re: Want to post some runtime graphs*

To BigWaffles --


This new graph has the Font Size *very nicely r**eadable* !

:twothumbs:twothumbs:twothumbs


Thank you ! ! !


:goodjob::thanks:
_


----------



## BigWaffles (Jan 29, 2009)

*Re: Want to post some runtime graphs*

Burgess,

Your quite welcome. Let's see if this next one turns out readable.

This is a compilation graph of all the Mini-Mag tests I've done. Quite a bit of variation across the board.






The original Mini-Mag Incan is quite outclassed here. :candle:

C.P.T.


----------



## Burgess (Jan 29, 2009)

*Re: Want to post some runtime graphs*

Interesting Mini-Maglite graphs !


FYI:

It's been *my* experience . . . .


(and i've tested perhaps a Dozen samples)


The Sandwich Shoppe SMJLED-2AA module

is *Much Brighter* than any of the Nite-Ize 3-LED modules

which i own.


Perhaps more comparable to your LightHound SMJLED readings, methinks.


Did you only get one sample of the Sandwich Shoppe module ?


My gut-feeling is that yours may be an "under-performing" sample. 


Just thought you'd wanna' know. Not criticizing your results.


Thank you for your lovely graphs !

:kiss:

_


----------



## Cydonia (Jan 29, 2009)

*Re: Want to post some runtime graphs*

That Mini-Mag run time graph is great.
But I wonder what happened to the SMJLED's? 
Seems the consensus around here was that the Sandwich Shoppe version was better than the "other one". 30 hour run time on alkalines was a standard often quoted run time expectation. My Sandwiche Shoppe SMJLED modules draw around 120ma of current from 2AA (3000ma) alkaline cells. 
This is in keeping with a run time estimate of close to 30 hours.
I don't see how they could fade out at 8 1/4 hours while drawing such a low current. Low batteries in the test Mag?
Or maybe the Sandwiche Shoppe and Lighthound SMJLED's got mixed up? 
Getting a multimeter with DC current measuring capability was the best thing I ever did. 
It clears up many a strange situation by giving concrete current draw numbers from which one can extrapolate a good rune time estimate.


----------



## Illum (Jan 29, 2009)

*Re: Want to post some runtime graphs*

:twothumbs:twothumbs:twothumbs


----------



## BigWaffles (Jan 29, 2009)

*Re: Want to post some runtime graphs*



Cydonia said:


> That Mini-Mag run time graph is great.
> But I wonder what happened to the SMJLED's?
> Seems the consensus around here was that the Sandwich Shoppe version was better than the "other one". 30 hour run time on alkalines was a standard often quoted run time expectation. My Sandwiche Shoppe SMJLED modules draw around 120ma of current from 2AA (3000ma) alkaline cells.
> This is in keeping with a run time estimate of close to 30 hours.
> ...


 
Cydonia,

Not sure what happened with the SMJLEDs. From reading other posts, I was expecting great runtime. The Lighthound version did have good runtime (if you ignore the initial 2hr warmup time). :shakehead

I'm pretty sure they didn't get mixed up with the Sandwich Shoppe version as I ordered 2 of the lighthound versions first and then ordered the Sandwich Shoppe version after getting the screwy graph. I did test 2 of each version in 2 different Mini-Mag hosts and the graphs were very close. Not sure what to make of it.:shrug:

Oh, well. Plenty of other drop-ins to play with.


C.P.T.


----------



## BigWaffles (Jan 29, 2009)

*Re: Want to post some runtime graphs*

Ok. Here is the second Terralux graph. This is the Terralux TLE-1F drop-in with a 3D Maglite host on Energizer Alkalines.






Output is comparable to the Mag LED but with a much longer runtime and flatter curve.

This is this drop-in here:

http://www.batteryjunction.com/tle-1f.html

I've got the Niteize 1W LED on the tester now. Should have the graph in a day or so.


C.P.T.


----------



## Cydonia (Jan 30, 2009)

*Re: Want to post some runtime graphs*

About 35 hours on the TLE-1F till it takes the "big plunge".
The Nite Ize 10mm did about 90 hours till "the big plunge".
A rough guesstimate says that the TLE-1F draws about 3 times the current of the 10mm?
So... is the TLE-1F that much brighter than the 10mm Nite Ize?
How bright does it seem to you - as compared to other lights?
Does this module get very hot to the touch?

It's going to be interesting to see if the Nite ize "TLE-1F clone" has the same run time characteristics!  I'm betting it is the exact same module!


----------



## 22hornet (Jan 30, 2009)

*Re: Want to post some runtime graphs*

Hello,
well it seems to be brighter: the Nite-Ize 10mm does about 800-900, while the TLE-1 does 2000. The TLE-1 also seems much better than the Maglite Drop-in, both in brightness as in runtime.

Seems we all need one, or several :thumbsup:.
I'm going to order some to brighten up my life :twothumbs It even sells at a very attractive price.
I think it is both strange and a pity this drop-in got so little attention over here. Thanks to this thread some old questions are finally answered and for this, Bigwaffles deserves a statue.

Kind regards,
Joris


----------



## PCC (Jan 30, 2009)

*Re: Want to post some runtime graphs*

Looking at the graphs I have made the following observations:

The MagLED module makes about 4650 Lux then quickly drops to about 2500 Lux in half an hour. After 8.5 hours at 2500 Lux it starts to drop off slowly and it takes 42.75 total hours to reach 1000 Lux from the start of the test.

The Nite-Ize 10mm bulb starts at 1875 Lux then drops to 1000 Lux in 6.5 hours.

The Terralux starts at 2400 Lux then drops to 1000 Lux in about 37 hours.

The 10mm drop-in will have light for a longer time since it is just slowly dimming after some rediculous amount of time but for usable light it seems that the MagLED is the one to get. Add to this that you can change the emitter fairly easily for an SSC P4, which will just about double the output from this drop-in and it seems like the logical choice.

I'd love to see the three graphs (plus the remaining Nite-Ize drop-in) on one graph as a comparison.

Having said all that I'm probably getting the Nite-Ize 1W drop-in for one of my MagLites.


----------



## jasonsmaglites (Jan 30, 2009)

*Re: Want to post some runtime graphs*

big waffles, can we get a graph of all the d size dropins together so we can more directly compare. thanks for turning us on to the 1watt terralux. i had no idea is was such a good lumens to runtime deal.


----------



## BigWaffles (Jan 31, 2009)

*Re: Want to post some runtime graphs*



Cydonia said:


> About 35 hours on the TLE-1F till it takes the "big plunge".
> The Nite Ize 10mm did about 90 hours till "the big plunge".
> A rough guesstimate says that the TLE-1F draws about 3 times the current of the 10mm?
> So... is the TLE-1F that much brighter than the 10mm Nite Ize?
> ...


 
Cydonia,

The Terralux TLE-1F seems about twice as bright as the Niteize 10mm. The data show this as well (200Lux vs 920Lux). As far as heat, after 5-10 min I could hold my finger on the Terralux and it was barely warm.



PCC said:


> Looking at the graphs I have made the following observations:
> 
> The MagLED module makes about 4650 Lux then quickly drops to about 2500 Lux in half an hour. After 8.5 hours at 2500 Lux it starts to drop off slowly and it takes 42.75 total hours to reach 1000 Lux from the start of the test.
> 
> ...


 
PCC,

Not sure about your numbers on the Niteize 10mm. It starts at 920Lux, drops to 900Lux in 32hrs, 800Lux at 70hrs and then falls off at 92hrs.

As far as the Mag LED being the one to get, I'm betting the Niteize 1W is going to beat it. It's been running for 24hrs and is still putting out over 2800Lux. It'll be interesting to see how long it will run.



jasonsmaglites said:


> big waffles, can we get a graph of all the d size dropins together so we can more directly compare. thanks for turning us on to the 1watt terralux. i had no idea is was such a good lumens to runtime deal.


 
PCC/Jasonmaglites,

Yes, when the Niteize 1W finishes I'll post that graph as well as a compilation of all the 3D Mag drop-ins that i've tested. I'll put it in the same format as the Mini-Mag compilation graph.

So far here is how I rate the beams (subjective, I know):

Mag LED - Brightest and harshest. This has the whitest/harshest beam and is very good for illumination. Few shadows.

Terralux TLE-1F - Not as white as the Mag LED. Seemed a bit yellower/softer. Good illumination.

Niteze 10mm - Blue, almost to purple, lots of shadows. Good for around the house. Makes a good tailcap backup.

More to follow.


C.P.T.


----------



## BigWaffles (Jan 31, 2009)

*Re: Want to post some runtime graphs*

Ok, here is the final drop-in I have for the 3D Mag. This is the Niteize 1W LED running on Energizer Alkalines.






As you can see, very good regulation and output. Unfortunately, it only runs 28.5hrs before dropping off . I think this has the Mag LED beat. Better regulation, higher overall output and good runtime.


C.P.T.


----------



## BigWaffles (Jan 31, 2009)

*Re: Want to post some runtime graphs*

By request, here is a compilation graph for the 3D Mag drop-ins I've tested. I didn't include the Niteize 10mm as it's insane runtime would have skewed the graph.







Here's my impressions of the beams of each one:

Mag LED - Brightest and harshest. This has the whitest/harshest beam and is very good for illumination with few shadows. It falls off quickly within the first 30min. The best if you use your light in short bursts (5-10min) at a time.

Niteize 1W - Not as white as the Mag LED. Seemes a bit yellower/softer, although not as yellow as the TLE-1F. Seems a bit dimmer than the Mag LED, although the LUX readings say otherwise. With its good output, I'll probably switch my Mag 3Ds to this drop-in for around the house.

Terralux TLE-1F - A bit yellower/softer than the Niteize 1W. Good illumination/runtime if you need the lower output.

Hopefully this info is useful, I've had a lot of fun gathering it. 

If anyone is interested, my Malkof M60LL came in yesterday and I will be testing it today in the 6P and G3L. 

Later.


C.P.T.


----------



## Cydonia (Jan 31, 2009)

*Re: Want to post some runtime graphs*

The Nite Ize rules them all :bow:
 :huh: :duh2: oo:

I thought it would be the exact same module as the TerraLux TLE-1F!
I was totally wrong again... this thing came in under the radar! Big output and great run time all in one.

*mad scramble to order a few*

Run time graphs are legendary. Quickly right click save as'd!

Is that a Luxeon I on that Nite Ize module?


----------



## Bullzeyebill (Jan 31, 2009)

*Re: Want to post some runtime graphs*

Was thinking that we could put some relative lumen values to the lux numbers that BigWaffles has presented here. MrGman tested the 6PLED at 82 lumens, and LSI labs, for the CPF Lightmeter Benchmark Passaround, after two minutes runtime, tested the A2 in an Integrated Sphere at 68 luumens with out the LEDs. I am not talking absolute lumen numbers here, just approximations. One could work out somewhat of a formula such as Quickbeam did at FlashlightReviews.com.

Bill


----------



## jaundice (Jan 31, 2009)

*Re: Want to post some runtime graphs*

Big Waffles;

I really want to thank you (again) for all the work you're doing on this thread. This thread has really shed some light (pun intended) on some questions I've had about mag lite drop-ins. 

I realize how expensive this can be, ordering all the drop-ins and using all the batteries. To that end I'd like to donate a few dollars, at least, to offset the cost. Do you have a paypal address where I can send some cash to defray expenses? I know that I couldn't afford to buy 10+ drop-ins and batteries just to test. 

Alternately, I would be happy to buy a drop-in off of you to offset the cost. I figure you probably don't need so many. Of course, you'd probably prefer to keep the better ones, but let me know if you want to part with one of the others. I'd be happy to pay you what you have into them.

I must admit that I'm doing this for purely selfish reasons. The more money you can recycle out of your runtime graph project, the more you'll do!

-John


----------



## Illum (Jan 31, 2009)

*Re: Want to post some runtime graphs*

hmmm....time to go buy a could nite-ize 1Ws:devil:

thats a beautiful regulation curve giving the size of the heatsink to work with


----------



## PCC (Jan 31, 2009)

*Re: Want to post some runtime graphs*



BigWaffles said:


> PCC,
> 
> Not sure about your numbers on the Niteize 10mm. It starts at 920Lux, drops to 900Lux in 32hrs, 800Lux at 70hrs and then falls off at 92hrs.
> 
> ...


Thank you, thank you, thank you!

As far as the 1875 lux number, I was trying to read the graph but I guess my eyes are not as good as they used to be and I saw something other than what was there. My bad!

Thanks for the subjective summary of the different drop-ins. Your "subjective" is better than my guess any day. I already had my eye on the Nite-Ize 1 watt drop-in but was waiting for your test to complete before committing to it. Now that you've posted the results, I'm going to pick up a few ASAP!

With regards to the MagLED drop-in, the one advantage that it has is that it can be modified by swapping the emitter. This can be done fairly easily. I will not try to tear apart the Nite-Ize one to see if it is modifyable but will retrofit a few PR flange incandescent flashlights I have that are waiting for the appropriate upgrade to come along. The Nite-Ize one seems to be it.

I may pick up a few 10mm Nite-Ize ones, too, for the extended run times just in case we get "the big one" (earthquake country here).


----------



## BigWaffles (Jan 31, 2009)

*Re: Want to post some runtime graphs*



Cydonia said:


> ...Is that a Luxeon I on that Nite Ize module?


 
No, I'm just happy to be here (sorry, couldn't resist). I'm really not sure. Does anyone know how to tell just by looking?



jaundice said:


> Big Waffles;
> 
> I really want to thank you (again) for all the work you're doing on this thread. This thread has really shed some light (pun intended) on some questions I've had about mag lite drop-ins.
> 
> ...


 
jaundice,

You're quite welcome for the graphs, they're a lot of fun to do. As far as expenses, batteries are cheap and the drop-ins aren't too bad. I'm using the Mag LEDs and the Niteizes (is that a word?). If you are interested in 2 slightly used Terraluxes for the 3D Maglite, PM me and we can work something out. And thanks for the support.


C.P.T.


----------



## BigWaffles (Feb 1, 2009)

*Re: Want to post some runtime graphs*

So, a couple of weeks ago I got bitten by the Malkoff bug. I've been reading about them for a while and finally decided to get one to see what the fuss was about. I have to admit, I was quite impressed. I purchased the Malkoff M60LL as it was the closest to the Surefire P60L module that I really liked. I received it late last week and finally finished the runtime tests. Here is what I found.

This is the Malkoff M60LL in a Surefire 6P with Surefire primaries.






18hrs of runtime. Very nice for the level of output that you get.


C.P.T.


----------



## PCC (Feb 1, 2009)

*Re: Want to post some runtime graphs*



BigWaffles said:


> No, I'm just happy to be here (sorry, couldn't resist). I'm really not sure. Does anyone know how to tell just by looking?
> 
> C.P.T.


I recall seeing a post around here that has pictures of the various popular LEDs so that you can try to identify them visually but I've not been able to find it doing searches here. I'm sure someone will chime in and reply with a link.

My recollection is that the Luxeon emitter has a hexagonal shaped surround to it around the actual emitter. Crees have a square box around the emitter with a horizontal bar running across (looks like a box sitting on the ground).

I can take pictures of a few different emitters I have here if you want to see them.


----------



## BigWaffles (Feb 1, 2009)

*Re: Want to post some runtime graphs*

Just for comparison, I decided to re-run the test in a Surefire G3L. This is the Malkoff M60LL in a Surefire G3L on Surefire primaries.






Runtime dropped to 13.5hrs but the output jumped by 3000Lux over the 6P. This one's definately a keeper.


C.P.T.


----------



## BigWaffles (Feb 1, 2009)

*Re: Want to post some runtime graphs*

Here's a compilation graph (these sure are cool) showing the differences between the Surefire 6P & G3L hosts and the Surefire P60L and Malkoff M60LL modules. All tests were run on Surefire primaries.






Strictly for runtime, Malkoff hit a homerun with this drop-in. 18hrs in a 6P and 13.5hrs in the G3L with very good regulation.

As far as the beams go, the difference between the 6P with the P60L and the M60LL was quite noticable. There is over 2000Lux difference and it shows. On the other hand, the difference between the two modules was hardly noticeable on the G3L. The P60L had a little more spill than the M60LL but the hotspots were identical.

I really liked the Surefire P60L in my G3L but I'm completely sold on the Malkoff M60LL. Better output and over twice the runtime. Unfortunately, now that I have the low power/long running module I'm going to have to get a regular M60 for high power to balance it out.

Does anybody else have one flashlight that they swap heads/drop-ins as needed or is it just easier to have multiple flashlights each with a deadicated module? Thanks.


C.P.T.


----------



## BigWaffles (Feb 1, 2009)

*Re: Want to post some runtime graphs*



PCC said:


> I recall seeing a post around here that has pictures of the various popular LEDs so that you can try to identify them visually but I've not been able to find it doing searches here. I'm sure someone will chime in and reply with a link.
> 
> My recollection is that the Luxeon emitter has a hexagonal shaped surround to it around the actual emitter. Crees have a square box around the emitter with a horizontal bar running across (looks like a box sitting on the ground).
> 
> I can take pictures of a few different emitters I have here if you want to see them.


 
PCC,

That will help. I can also take a picture of the Terralux and the Niteize and post them. If we post enough pictures, someone should be able to identy the emitters in question. Thanks.


C.P.T.


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## jaundice (Feb 1, 2009)

*Re: Want to post some runtime graphs*

Big Waffles;

In the last month or so, I've picked up the whole stable of Malkoff drop-ins. I grabbed an M60L used on the marketplace, and that prompted me to get an M60 and M60LL new from Malkoff devices. Then, I unexpectedly picked up an M30 from another memeber of the forum.

I use dedicated G-series lights for hosts. Love the combo. I have the M60 in a G3 with an aluminum bezel, and the M60L and LL in plain G2 nitrolon lights (with nitrolon bezels). I'm waiting on a surefire 6pl for a host for my M30.

The lights are cheap, and I already had a few, so I didn't worry about getting one host for each drop-in. I had a thread a while back asking if there's anything better than a malkoff plus G2. Although many people suggested cheaper hosts, the consensus fundamentally was no.

That thread suggested that a great, cheap host is a Solarforce L2 host from Lighthound (currently sold out, but they're expecting more in 2 weeks). You get a complete light, minus lamp and batteries, for $24. 

One thing I find interesting on this forum is that there's some debate on the merits of the G2 vs metal counterparts. The gist is that many people, me included, like the fact that in cold weather the nitrolon lights are much more comfortable to hold. I noticed that most of the people that enjoyed this feature are from warmer climates, and people from Chicago and Minnesota dismissed this out of hand. I realized that in places like California, people never wear gloves, even on the coldest night of the year (above freezing), whereas people in colder climates probably wear gloves more often, and their perception of what's cold is different.

A final question. Chevrofreak ran runtimes for the P60L in both the G2 (full nitrolon) and the 6P, and apparently the P60L has a built in temperature control that throttles down the LED when heat builds up in plastic lights. Thus, the output in the G2 is lower, but overall runtime is longer than the 6P. This has me wondering if that's the case with Malkoff M60L and LL, which are spec'd to run in plastic lights. The M60, of course, isn't spec'd to run in plastic lights for more than 15 minutes without damage to the module. The word here on CPF is that Gene Malkoff considers an aluminum bezeled G2 or G3 to be a metal light for M60.

So, will the M60L or LL run lower, but longer, is a nitrolon bezeled G2/G3? Does anyone know?

-John


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## Bullzeyebill (Feb 1, 2009)

*Re: Want to post some runtime graphs*

Gene gets longer runtimes with his L and LL's because they run at lower current to the LED. SF's G2L with the Nitralon bezel runs longer because the P60L circuit reduces the current to the LED when the LED gets hot. So the SF P60L has variable output/runtime based on the temperature of the LED. 

Bill


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## Bullzeyebill (Feb 1, 2009)

*Re: Want to post some runtime graphs*

BigWaffles, thanks for the Malkoff 60LL runtimes. I believe this is a first, the first graphed runtime tests of any Malkoff module posted on CPF. Maybe someone will send you the M60, and M60L for testing. The runtime is much flatter than I would have expected, and it is interesting how the output is boosted by the addition of one CR123 in the G3L Malkoff graph, boosted but still flat till near the end. If the P6L has been tested at 80 lumens in an IS, then the M60LL must be well over 100 lumens when run in the G3L, and probably about 60 lumens in the 6P. Facinating.

Bill


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## Alan B (Feb 1, 2009)

*Re: Want to post some runtime graphs*

Excellent data :thumbsup: Thanks for your effort :thumbsup:

I did not look at this thread for a long time due to the title. You may want to change the title now that you are beyond "wanting to post runtime graphs" to "a collection of runtime graphs" or some such. 

To do this - edit the first post in the thread and select the "advanced" feature to get at the title. It is under your control there.


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## PCC (Feb 1, 2009)

*Re: Want to post some runtime graphs*



BigWaffles said:


> PCC,
> 
> That will help. I can also take a picture of the Terralux and the Niteize and post them. If we post enough pictures, someone should be able to identy the emitters in question. Thanks.
> 
> C.P.T.


Here are a few pictures that I just took. I had to break out the macro gear to get these shots.

SSC P4 (supposed to be U-bin)





SSC P7 (not sure about the bin)





Luxeon III (I think)





Cree XR-E (unknown bin)


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## Illum (Feb 1, 2009)

*Re: Want to post some runtime graphs*



BigWaffles said:


>



hmm, you'd think the 6P would have more heatsinking mass than that of the G2
Wonder why the Malkoff behaved so differently between 800 and 1000 minutes(?)


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## Bullzeyebill (Feb 1, 2009)

*Re: Want to post some runtime graphs*



Illum_the_nation said:


> hmm, you'd think the 6P would have more heatsinking mass than that of the G2
> Wonder why the Malkoff behaved so differently between 800 and 1000 minutes(?)



It's a G3L, and additional battery has given it boost. The current is so low that there are no heat issues, so does not need metal mass for heatsinking.

The circuit is trying to regulate. Apparently the nature of Gene's circuits for M60's

Bill


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## BigWaffles (Feb 3, 2009)

*Re: Want to post some runtime graphs*



jaundice said:


> Big Waffles;
> ... The M60, of course, isn't spec'd to run in plastic lights for more than 15 minutes without damage to the module. The word here on CPF is that Gene Malkoff considers an aluminum bezeled G2 or G3 to be a metal light for M60.
> 
> So, will the M60L or LL run lower, but longer, is a nitrolon bezeled G2/G3? Does anyone know?
> ...


 
Now I'm curious. I have a plain G2 and can run another test later this week, that would tell if there is any thermal regulation going on. 

You say that the M60 can't run for more than 15min without damage to the module. Would this apply to the M60LL in a plain G2? I don't want to burn up my new Malkoff. Thanks.



PCC said:


> Here are a few pictures that I just took. I had to break out the macro gear to get these shots...


 
Unfortunately I don't have the equipment to take such nice closeups of the two drop-ins. I try to get a close shot and the camera won't focus. Oh, well.:sigh:

Just by looking, the Terralux TLE-1F has a round yellow emitter with two wires running out of opposite sides (4 wires total). The Niteize 1W looks similar to your Cree XR-E (square yellow emitter) but the 4 wires run directly into the yellow emitter, not a base. Not very good descriptions, I know. I'll keep trying with the camera.


C.P.T.


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## BigWaffles (Feb 3, 2009)

*Re: Want to post some runtime graphs*



Alan B said:


> Excellent data :thumbsup: Thanks for your effort :thumbsup:
> 
> I did not look at this thread for a long time due to the title. You may want to change the title now that you are beyond "wanting to post runtime graphs" to "a collection of runtime graphs" or some such.
> 
> To do this - edit the first post in the thread and select the "advanced" feature to get at the title. It is under your control there.


 
Thanks for your encouragement and the suggestion. Title Changed.


C.P.T.


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## Bullzeyebill (Feb 3, 2009)

See Gene's website re specs for the M60LL. It will answer questions about use in a G2.

Bill


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## PCC (Feb 3, 2009)

*Re: Want to post some runtime graphs*



BigWaffles said:


> Unfortunately I don't have the equipment to take such nice closeups of the two drop-ins. I try to get a close shot and the camera won't focus. Oh, well.:sigh:
> 
> Just by looking, the Terralux TLE-1F has a round yellow emitter with two wires running out of opposite sides (4 wires total). The Niteize 1W looks similar to your Cree XR-E (square yellow emitter) but the 4 wires run directly into the yellow emitter, not a base. Not very good descriptions, I know. I'll keep trying with the camera.
> 
> ...


Those are good descriptions. Note on the XR-E that there is a bar running across the top right next to the emitter platform. That's how you can tell that it's a Cree.

As for my macro setup, I'm using an old Nikon D70 DSLR, M2 extension tube, BR2A reversing ring, and an old 35-70mm zoom lens at the 35mm setting. The lens being reversed allows me to get in close like that. It's great for taking pictures of things up close but you cannot take pictures of people with it


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## jasonsmaglites (Feb 3, 2009)

big waffles, 
where did you get the niteize 1 watt for the mag shootout. can we get a link for the noobs?


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## Illum (Feb 3, 2009)

jasonsmaglites said:


> big waffles,
> where did you get the niteize 1 watt for the mag shootout. can we get a link for the noobs?



it looks like this
http://www.niteize.com/productdetail.php?category_id=28&product_id=166
lighthound sells them
https://www.lighthound.com/Nite-Ize...-fits-Maglite-C-D-Cell-Flashights_p_2790.html


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## 22hornet (Feb 12, 2009)

Hello, Bigwaffles,

I know you already have done a lot for us, but please, please give us a runtime graph for a Malkoff Maglite drop-in kit.:help::bow::thanks:

Kind regards,
Joris


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## BigWaffles (Feb 14, 2009)

22hornet said:


> Hello, Bigwaffles,
> 
> I know you already have done a lot for us, but please, please give us a runtime graph for a Malkoff Maglite drop-in kit.:help::bow::thanks:
> 
> ...


 
22hornet,

By request, here is the Malkoff for the 4-6D Maglite. I got this around the first of the month and just got around to testing it. This is in a 4D Maglite running on Energizer Alkalines.







The horizontal scale is in hours. It took 12hrs to drop to 4000Lux. I quit the test at 162 hours because it just kept going.

At this point I'll believe any claim Gene Malkoff makes on his website about his drop-ins, these are everything he claims and then some. This light will put a spot on trees across the lake in front of my house. Very impressive.

Edit: Just for comparison, the same drop-in in the 6D Maglite puts out just over 14000Lux. If I get board next week or so I'll re-run this graph on the 6D to see what the extra 2 batteries do for the runtime curve.


C.P.T.


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## BigWaffles (Feb 14, 2009)

One last Malkoff graph to post. This is the M60 in a Surefire 6P host running on Surefire primaries.






This test was right at the limits of my Lux meter. The meter tops out at 20,000 Lux and it was on overload for the first couple of minutes.

The drop-in has good regulation and works as advertised. Gene claims 1.5+hrs on his website and he is dead on. This dropped out of regulation at almost 1.5hrs exactly. 

Not sure why, but this drop-in put out 5000Lux more than the Maglite drop-in even though it is rated at 10Lumen less. Thoughts?

One thing to be aware of, this unit really puts out the heat. I tested it in an all-metal 6P and after 1hr the head was almost too hot to touch and the body was uncomfortably warm. It never got any hotter but I wouldn't recommend running this for any length of time in a Nitrolon body (even with the metal head). I will be getting a 9P host for this drop-in. I can't test the output as it is well over the limits of my Lux meter but I guess it will be in the 22,000Lux - 23,000Lux range. It will make a nice small powerhouse.

Not much else to add except this thing is awesome.


C.P.T.


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## csshih (Feb 14, 2009)

Impressive work, C.P.T.

Not much else to add except you're awesome.

-- Craig


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## BigWaffles (Feb 14, 2009)

Just for comparison I made a compilation graph showing the Makloff M60 with the Surefire G3 - P90 and P91 Lamps. All of these are run on Surefire Primaries.






As you can see, with the 1.5hr runtime, the Malkoff M60 has the others beat hands down. I really liked my G3/P91 for its high output but hated it for its extremely short runtime; looks like I can now have both. It's amazing that a 2 battery Malkoff M60 will out perform a 3 battery G3 with a P91 High Output Lamp. Later.


C.P.T.


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## Bullzeyebill (Feb 14, 2009)

It would interesting to see how Malkoff for 4-6D graph would look like using NiMh D's? Thanks for your work.

Bill


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## greenLED (Feb 14, 2009)

BigWaffles, thanks for all the effort you put into this.

Have you thought about using a public FTP site to upload the raw files? That way people can pick and choose which graphs they want to make, etc.

Can't think of any such services right now, but I know they're available. You upload a file and then share the corresponding link.


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## 22hornet (Feb 14, 2009)

C.P.T.,
Thanks a lot! I think the runtime graph of the Maglite 4D Malkoff is quite revealing. 
The bad: regulation is not very flat.
The good: great output and - this is really interesting, I think - it remains at a low level for a looong time. This low level is actually as bright, or brighter, than the 1W nite-ize for a 2AA minimag and this output beats the Nite-ize 10mm dropin for the 2-6cell Maglites. 

Thanks, Gene, thanks C.P.T.

These runtime graphs really answered some long-lived questions.

Kind regards,
Joris


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## Alan B (Feb 14, 2009)

greenLED said:


> BigWaffles, thanks for all the effort you put into this.
> 
> Have you thought about using a public FTP site to upload the raw files? That way people can pick and choose which graphs they want to make, etc.
> 
> Can't think of any such services right now, but I know they're available. You upload a file and then share the corresponding link.



Google spreadsheet would work well for this. The pages can be imported easily into excel for local graphing.


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## Kestrel (Feb 14, 2009)

BigWaffles said:


> One last Malkoff graph to post. This is the M60 in a Surefire 6P host running on Surefire primaries.



Is there any way to add two more sets to this graph:

M60 - 6P - 2xRCR123's and
M60 - 6P - 1x17670.
I've read (& participated in) some debate recently about the viability of running the M60 on a single 17670 - slightly lower output, minimal regulation, long graceful decline on ~1500 total mAh vs the M60 on 2xRCR123's - complete regulation, abrupt shutoff w/ cell protection circuit - 1100 total mAh. I would go out on a limb to suggest that 1x17670 is a more useful configuration imho.

I know your runs are all primary cells but I would find some rechargeable LiIon comparisons very interesting. I would volunteer either but I only have 2x17500, which cannot duplicate the undocumented behavior of the M60 on 1x17670.

Thank you very much for your graphs, very interesting work.


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## Illum (Feb 14, 2009)

BigWaffles said:


> 22hornet,
> 
> By request, here is the Malkoff for the 4-6D Maglite. I got this around the first of the month and just got around to testing it. This is in a 4D Maglite running on Energizer Alkalines.
> ...


Initially I was shocked by that runtime seeing that the output dropped so suddenly, then I saw the hour intervals, now I'm impressed:devil:

Its good to see the moon mode going that smoothly though, makes me wonder whether the alkaline based LED lights [like AA magLED] uses mediocre drivers that can't use the energy left in those alkalines:shakehead


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## greenLED (Feb 14, 2009)

Alan B said:


> Google spreadsheet would work well for this. The pages can be imported easily into excel for local graphing.


Can you make a Google doc open to the public? I've only ever shared docs via e-mail to a few peeps.


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## JamisonM (Feb 14, 2009)

BigWaffles said:


> 22hornet,
> 
> By request, here is the Malkoff for the 4-6D Maglite. I got this around the first of the month and just got around to testing it. This is in a 4D Maglite running on Energizer Alkalines.
> 
> ...


I can't thank you enough. I have always wanted to see the runtime for a 3D and 4D maglite with Gene's drop-in installed. Any chance of seeing the runtime of a 3D and 4D with Gene's drop-in powered with NiMH?


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## BigWaffles (Feb 15, 2009)

Bullzeyebill said:


> It would interesting to see how Malkoff for 4-6D graph would look like using NiMh D's? Thanks for your work.
> 
> Bill


 



Kestrel said:


> Is there any way to add two more sets to this graph:
> 
> M60 - 6P - 2xRCR123's and
> M60 - 6P - 1x17670.





JamisonM said:


> I can't thank you enough. I have always wanted to see the runtime for a 3D and 4D maglite with Gene's drop-in installed. Any chance of seeing the runtime of a 3D and 4D with Gene's drop-in powered with NiMH?


 
Unfortunately at this time I don't have any rechargables except Eneloop AAs. Also, my charger only takes AAA and AA; I'll have to look into it. Is there a charger that will take all sizes (RCR123, 17670, AAA thru D)?



Alan B said:


> Google spreadsheet would work well for this. The pages can be imported easily into excel for local graphing.


 


greenLED said:


> Can you make a Google doc open to the public? I've only ever shared docs via e-mail to a few peeps.


 
Per your suggestions, I'm checking into Google Docs. My first upload removed the graph from the spreadsheet; I'm not sure it supports that function. I might only be able to post the raw data in the spreadsheets. I'll play with it some more tomorrow.

Thanks to all for the support on this, I'm having fun and learning quite a bit.


C.P.T.


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## JamisonM (Feb 15, 2009)

BigWaffles said:


> Unfortunately at this time I don't have any rechargables except Eneloop AAs. Also, my charger only takes AAA and AA; I'll have to look into it. Is there a charger that will take all sizes (RCR123, 17670, AAA thru D)?


I'm sorry, but I don't know of such a charger, but if you don't mind, I'd wouldn't mind seeing the runtime with 4 eneloops. You say you have only eneloops like it's a bad thing. They're great batteries and I'm currently using four of them in D adapters in a 4D maglite with Gene's older copper heatsink drop-in as my dog walking light and I love it. If I can see the runtime with 4AA 2000mAh NiMH cells, I can use that as a bases of guestimating the runtime I'd see with higher capacity NiMH. At least, that's how it works out in my mind.


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## Alan B (Feb 15, 2009)

BigWaffles said:


> Unfortunately at this time I don't have any rechargables except Eneloop AAs. Also, my charger only takes AAA and AA; I'll have to look into it. Is there a charger that will take all sizes (RCR123, 17670, AAA thru D)?
> 
> Per your suggestions, I'm checking into Google Docs. My first upload removed the graph from the spreadsheet; I'm not sure it supports that function. I might only be able to post the raw data in the spreadsheets. I'll play with it some more tomorrow.
> 
> ...



Thanks for your effort.

Google docs can be made public readable.

I was thinking of the spreadsheets for the raw data. I don't think they have graphs yet. But I have not looked for that.

Maha makes a charger that will do NiMH C and D, but if you want to handle everything look into an RC charger. I have the Thunderpower TP610C and it will charge just about anything. You do have to work out the battery electrical connection, this can be done with battery holders, clamps, magnets or what-not. Also, most RC chargers run from 12VDC which is good and bad news. You need a power supply at home, but in the field you can charge from the car or other 12VDC source.


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## BigWaffles (Feb 15, 2009)

Ok, I think I've published the raw data for the 6P with the Malkoff M60. Someone try the link and let me know if this works.

http://docs.google.com/Doc?id=d2ssg4q_4gmxbcnfm

Here is the full graph in .jpg format.

http://docs.google.com/Doc?id=d2ssg4q_0ndn729fp

Apparently I can't publish a spreadsheet. Let me know if this will be useful and I'll post all the raw data & graphs. Thanks.


C.P.T.


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## Alan B (Feb 15, 2009)

BigWaffles said:


> Ok, I think I've published the raw data for the 6P with the Malkoff M60. Someone try the link and let me know if this works.
> 
> http://docs.google.com/Doc?id=d2ssg4q_4gmxbcnfm
> 
> ...



Data and graph look ok. 

You might want to use a greater distance so you don't over-range the meter, and to let the beam pattern stabilize. Some folks are using 5 meters, but even 2 meters would be better than one, at least for the tightly focussed beams.

I don't know why you can't share a spreadsheet. It is under Share/Share with the world.


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## BigWaffles (Feb 16, 2009)

Alan B said:


> Data and graph look ok.
> 
> You might want to use a greater distance so you don't over-range the meter, and to let the beam pattern stabilize. Some folks are using 5 meters, but even 2 meters would be better than one, at least for the tightly focussed beams.
> 
> I don't know why you can't share a spreadsheet. It is under Share/Share with the world.


 
When I share a normal document I have an option to publish it. When I click share on an .xls file there is no option to publish it. Not sure what's going on there. I might have to find a hosting site and just throw them out there for download. Do you know anything about Rapidshare?

Also, I'm not sure what you mean by using a greater distance so as not to over-range the meter. I'm using a light box constructed with instructions found on FlashlightReviews.com -http://www.flashlightreviews.com/fea...box_output.htm. Is there another way to test these? Thanks.


C.P.T.


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## Alan B (Feb 16, 2009)

BigWaffles said:


> When I share a normal document I have an option to publish it. When I click share on an .xls file there is no option to publish it. Not sure what's going on there. I might have to find a hosting site and just throw them out there for download. Do you know anything about Rapidshare?
> 
> Also, I'm not sure what you mean by using a greater distance so as not to over-range the meter. I'm using a light box constructed with instructions found on FlashlightReviews.com -http://www.flashlightreviews.com/fea...box_output.htm. Is there another way to test these? Thanks.
> 
> ...



Perhaps you are in Google documents, I was talking about Google Spreadsheets. Different app.

I forgot you were using a lightbox. For runtimes a beam center lux measurement would also work. I suppose it should be verified, but I think the total flux goes down the same way the central intensity goes down.

I suppose you could also re-range your lightbox by adding some grey patches inside. With LEDs getting brighter you are going to have over-range problems more often.


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## Alan B (Feb 16, 2009)

One nice thing about Google Spreadsheets is that you can add pages to the one workbook for different tests rather than managing a bunch of separate documents (and links).


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## BigWaffles (Feb 16, 2009)

Bullzeyebill said:


> It would interesting to see how Malkoff for 4-6D graph would look like using NiMh D's? Thanks for your work.






JamisonM said:


> I can't thank you enough. I have always wanted to see the runtime for a 3D and 4D maglite with Gene's drop-in installed. Any chance of seeing the runtime of a 3D and 4D with Gene's drop-in powered with NiMH?


 
Now you have me thinking about rechargables as a cheaper way to feed these lights. I'm about to show my battery ignorance with this next question. I'm assuming that the higher the MAH rating the more energy the battery will store? If so, are these a good start or are there better out there?

http://www.batteryjunction.com/tpeh-td12000.html

Does anybody make an Eneloop equivalent in a 'D' size battery? Also, I'll have to get another Maha charger for the larger cells. Let me research this a bit and see where it goes. Thanks.




Kestrel said:


> Is there any way to add two more sets to this graph:





Kestrel said:


> M60 - 6P - 2xRCR123's and
> M60 - 6P - 1x17670.
> I've read (& participated in) some debate recently about the viability of running the M60 on a single 17670 - slightly lower output, minimal regulation, long graceful decline on ~1500 total mAh vs the M60 on 2xRCR123's - complete regulation, abrupt shutoff w/ cell protection circuit - 1100 total mAh. I would go out on a limb to suggest that 1x17670 is a more useful configuration imho.
> 
> ...


 
Kestral,

I need to read up on the RCR123s and the 17670s. Would they be usable in a normal CR123A lights or only for certain drop-ins? What charger would they use? I'll keep it in mind for the future but for now I'll probably be keeping to common battery combos. Thanks for the suggestion.




JamisonM said:


> I'm sorry, but I don't know of such a charger, but if you don't mind, I'd wouldn't mind seeing the runtime with 4 eneloops. You say you have only eneloops like it's a bad thing. They're great batteries and I'm currently using four of them in D adapters in a 4D maglite with Gene's older copper heatsink drop-in as my dog walking light and I love it. If I can see the runtime with 4AA 2000mAh NiMH cells, I can use that as a bases of guestimating the runtime I'd see with higher capacity NiMH. At least, that's how it works out in my mind.


 
JamisonM,

I didn't mean to imply that Eneloops are bad, only that they are the only rechargables that I have at the moment. Probably the best thing to happen for my camera and GPS. 

Are you sure you meant 4 AA Eneloops in a 4 D Maglite? Wouldn't that overdraw the cells? Seems to me a 4D Malkoff would put quite a hurt on 4 AA batteries. If you're willing to wait, I'm seriously looking at 'D' NiMHs in the next couple of weeks.


C.P.T.


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## BigWaffles (Feb 16, 2009)

Alan B said:


> Perhaps you are in Google documents, I was talking about Google Spreadsheets. Different app.


 
Is there a different link? Google search and the help function in Google Docs both point to docs.google.com for spreadsheets.



Alan B said:


> I forgot you were using a lightbox. For runtimes a beam center lux measurement would also work. I suppose it should be verified, but I think the total flux goes down the same way the central intensity goes down
> 
> I suppose you could also re-range your lightbox by adding some grey patches inside. With LEDs getting brighter you are going to have over-range problems more often.


 
Acutally I was looking for some sort of dimmer material to put over the lense. It would drop the output to within the range of the meter but still give a good graph of the runtime.


C.P.T.


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## BigWaffles (Feb 16, 2009)

Ok, I think I figured it out. Apparently I have to open the .xls file to be able to publish it, I can't publish it from the documents listing like the others. Here is the .xls file for the 6P - Malkoff M60 test. Let me know if this is in a useful format.

http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=pZzLlBL6s3xBFo5zMz_PrNw


C.P.T.


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## greenLED (Feb 16, 2009)

BigWaffles said:


> Ok, I think I figured it out. Apparently I have to open the .xls file to be able to publish it, I can't publish it from the documents listing like the others. Here is the .xls file for the 6P - Malkoff M60 test. Let me know if this is in a useful format.
> 
> http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=pZzLlBL6s3xBFo5zMz_PrNw
> 
> ...


Nice, BigWaffles!

Is your elapsed time the same for all the lights you're doing? If that's the case, you could have that as your main sorting column, and add a column per light. That way you won't create a file per light, but have all the data in a single file.

Thanks for your hard work! :twothumbs


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## Bullzeyebill (Feb 16, 2009)

C.P.T., go to threads of interest in the Flashlight electronics, Batteries included forum here on CPF, and click on Silverfox's Battery Shoot Out threads. Look at the discharge rates of the various batteries listed. This will give you good info on how batteries respond under load. The Eneloops shown in the NiMh Battery Shoot Out thread are very strong and can sustain fairly high current drain.

Bil


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## BigWaffles (Feb 16, 2009)

greenLED said:


> Nice, BigWaffles!
> 
> Is your elapsed time the same for all the lights you're doing? If that's the case, you could have that as your main sorting column, and add a column per light. That way you won't create a file per light, but have all the data in a single file.
> 
> Thanks for your hard work! :twothumbs


 
greenLED,

Unfortunately the elapsed time isn't the same for all the graphs. Excel can only handle so many horizontal tic marks and the elapsed time allows me reduce that number so the intervals are readable. If you don't want the Time column I can just include the Elapsed Time and LUX columns for each light. Also, Google Docs limits me to 1Mb file size so I can only include so many per file. Shouldn't be too hard to condense the .xls files and then put a single reference post to include all the links. I'll play with it to see what I can do.



Bullzeyebill said:


> C.P.T., go to threads of interest in the Flashlight electronics, Batteries included forum here on CPF, and click on Silverfox's Battery Shoot Out threads. Look at the discharge rates of the various batteries listed. This will give you good info on how batteries respond under load. The Eneloops shown in the NiMh Battery Shoot Out thread are very strong and can sustain fairly high current drain.
> 
> Bil


 
Bullzeyebill,

I've been living on the battery sub-forum since I posted those questions and am learning a lot. I'll check out that thread on the Eneloops. Thanks. 


C.P.T.


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## etc (Feb 16, 2009)

RE: Malkoff graphs

Most excellent and eye-opening, thanks.


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## BigWaffles (Feb 16, 2009)

22hornet said:


> C.P.T.,
> Thanks a lot! I think the runtime graph of the Maglite 4D Malkoff is quite revealing.
> The bad: regulation is not very flat.
> The good: great output and - this is really interesting, I think - it remains at a low level for a looong time. This low level is actually as bright, or brighter, than the 1W nite-ize for a 2AA minimag and this output beats the Nite-ize 10mm dropin for the 2-6cell Maglites.
> ...


 
22hornet,

Ok, this should be better for regulation. Here is the 6D Maglite with the Malkoff drop-in, I stopped this after 27 hours as it had entered Moon-mode and probably would have continued running for the next couple of weeks. Once in moon-mode the 4D and 6D were almost identical (you can't quite see it but both lights run to the end of the graph).







I'm glad I reran the Malkoff on the 6D Maglite, those extra 2 batteries made a huge difference; 13hrs of very flat runtime before dropping below 13,000Lux.:huh: It would seem that the Malkoffs perform best at or near their max voltage.

C.P.T.


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## Bullzeyebill (Feb 16, 2009)

Excellent results using Alkalines. You would probably get similiar, if not better results using six Eneloops in a mag 2D with 2X3 battery holder. Moon mode would be shorter.

Bill


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## etc (Feb 16, 2009)

I have a Malkoff in 3D, how would its graph look? Wonder if I should upgrade to a 4D Malkoff module - do I get both greater runtime _and_ lumens? That's what it looks like from the graphs.


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## BigWaffles (Feb 16, 2009)

etc said:


> I have a Malkoff in 3D, how would its graph look? Wonder if I should upgrade to a 4D Malkoff module - do I get both greater runtime _and_ lumens? That's what it looks like from the graphs.


 
Etc,

Not sure how the graph would look as they are two different modules. According to Gene's website they both put out appx. 240Lumens at 1000ma. The 3D runs at 1000ma while the 4, 5, & 6D run at 1100ma. The 3D is rated at 6+ hours and the 4D gives 8+ hours of runtime. If that is accurate, and I have no doubt it is, your 3D should be a bit dimmer than the 4D graph (1000ma vs 1100ma). The increase in number of batteries would give greater runtime. That only leaves the question of the initial runtime before it drops to moon-mode.


C.P.T.


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## etc (Feb 16, 2009)

OK thanks


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## greenLED (Feb 16, 2009)

BigWaffles said:


> Shouldn't be too hard to condense the .xls files and then put a single reference post to include all the links. I'll play with it to see what I can do.


You're AWESOME!


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## Phaserburn (Feb 17, 2009)

BW, any chance of graphs of the new Rebel Mags, the 2D and MM? I think they are important benchmarks a great many of us would be interested in seeing. It's the only way to see what has really happened in Mag's new redesigns.

Thanks again!


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## BigWaffles (Feb 18, 2009)

I ran into a little snag trying to upload the .xls files to Google Docs, it seems that there is a 1Mb file size limit on spreadsheets. The raw data in .xls format is exceeding this limit in most of my files.

What I'll do is upload the raw data in .csv format for each graph. You can open a .csv file directly with Excel and then just save it as a .xls. It will take longer this way but you will have all the raw data. This data includes date, time and Lux for the entire run for each flashlight.

The good thing is that Google Docs doesn't limit the number of files I can upload.

I'll get started on uploading the files and then group them in one post when finished. If I have time I'll also upload all the graphs in .jpg format so people can download the full sized graph files for viewing.


C.P.T.


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## BigWaffles (Feb 19, 2009)

I found a better solution than Google Docs. It's called Google Sites. It allows you to make a web site and just post the complete files for download. The nice thing about it is that it just hosts the file, it doesn't make changes/limitations to it. You can go here to see what I've got uploaded so far:

http://sites.google.com/site/bigwafflesruntimegraphs

I'll be uploading the complete .xls files as I get to them so keep checking back; these files will contain the raw data and the graphs. Once I get all the excel files posted I'll start posting the .jpg graphs for those who don't want all the raw data. Later.


C.P.T.


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## Alan B (Feb 19, 2009)

Nice :twothumbs


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## jasonsmaglites (Feb 20, 2009)

BigWaffles said:


> 22hornet,
> 
> Ok, this should be better for regulation. Here is the 6D Maglite with the Malkoff drop-in, I stopped this after 27 hours as it had entered Moon-mode and probably would have continued running for the next couple of weeks. Once in moon-mode the 4D and 6D were almost identical (you can't quite see it but both lights run to the end of the graph).
> 
> ...



when you get your tenergy 12000 d's, run 4 of them and you'll see a runtime graph not far off from the 6d. they wont sag under the voltage. just make sure to break in the d's with a few runs before you run an "official" test. once you go rechargeable, you'll never go back.


----------



## BigWaffles (Feb 21, 2009)

jasonsmaglites said:


> when you get your tenergy 12000 d's, run 4 of them and you'll see a runtime graph not far off from the 6d. they wont sag under the voltage. just make sure to break in the d's with a few runs before you run an "official" test. once you go rechargeable, you'll never go back.


 
What's the voltage on these fully charged? From my reading, most rechargables have a higher voltage than regular batteries. Won't be a problem in the 4D but might overload the Malkoff if I were to try it in the 6D. Thanks.


C.P.T.


----------



## Bullzeyebill (Feb 21, 2009)

BigWaffles said:


> What's the voltage on these fully charged? From my reading, most rechargables have a higher voltage than regular batteries. Won't be a problem in the 4D but might overload the Malkoff if I were to try it in the 6D. Thanks.
> 
> 
> C.P.T.



Actually NiCd and NiMh cells fully charged have lower voltage than regular cells, but cab operate at higher discharge rates, holding their voltage for a longer period of time than regular cells, ie primary cells. The high discharge rate of NiMh cells, for example, will give longer runtimes at higher output in the Malkoff's. Six NiMh's in a 6D will read about 8.4 volts fully charged, maybe a little more, and rested will read about 8 volts.

Bill


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## BigWaffles (Mar 1, 2009)

So this week at work I got notified of an upcoming deployment I'm going on. Part of the equipment they issued me is a Fulton Anglehead flashlight. I was given the newer LED version so I thought I'd do a runtime on it just for kicks. Here is the Fulton Anglehead LED on Energizer alkaline batteries.






:sick2: I think I'll take one of my Malkoffs instead.


C.P.T.


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## BigWaffles (Mar 1, 2009)

Just out of curiosity I re-ran the runtime on the Fulton Anglehead with the incan that came in the tailcap. This is on Energizer alkalines.






It's hard to believe that the military got by on these for as long as they have. We've come a long way...


C.P.T.


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## BigWaffles (Mar 1, 2009)

So I noticed that I didn't have a 2D Maglite in my collection so I picked up an LED version (old style). Here is the 2D Maglite with the Mag LED on Energizer alkalines.






Not bad runtime for a 2D cell light.


C.P.T.


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## BigWaffles (Mar 1, 2009)

Here is the same 2D Maglite with the Niteize 1W drop-in. This is running on Energizer alkalines.






Not a huge difference over the stock Mag LED.


C.P.T.


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## BigWaffles (Mar 1, 2009)

And here is the 2D Maglite with the stock incan (1K6) on Energizer alkalines.







C.P.T.


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## BigWaffles (Mar 1, 2009)

For comparison, here is a compilation showing all three tests for the 2D Maglite.







C.P.T.


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## BigWaffles (Mar 1, 2009)

I received my 'D' cell NiMHs this morning and am running them through a couple of charge/discharge cycles to get them ready. When finished I'll re-run the 4D and 6D Maglites with the Malkoff drop-in on NiMHs and post the results.

Also, when they're back in stock I plan on getting a Malkoff Drop-in for the 2-3D Mags. When I get one I'll run it in the 2D and 3D Mags on alkalines and NiMHs and post the results.


Back to the lab...:naughty:


C.P.T.


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## Burgess (Mar 1, 2009)

Hello Big_Waffles --


*Thank you* for these wonderful graphs !

:goodjob::thanks:



Can you please tell us . . . .


Which *type* of incand. bulb was used in each ?

PR-2 ? KPR-2 ? any specifics would be handy.

(yes, i know it'll be tiny -- get yer' magnifier out) 


Good Luck in your new deployment.

Stay safe.

_


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## JamisonM (Mar 1, 2009)

BigWaffles said:


> I received my 'D' cell NiMHs this morning and am running them through a couple of charge/discharge cycles to get them ready. When finished I'll re-run the 4D and 6D Maglites with the Malkoff drop-in on NiMHs and post the results.
> 
> Also, when they're back in stock I plan on getting a Malkoff Drop-in for the 2-3D Mags. When I get one I'll run it in the 2D and 3D Mags on alkalines and NiMHs and post the results.
> 
> ...


nuff said


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## BigWaffles (Mar 1, 2009)

Burgess said:


> ...Can you please tell us which *type* of incand. bulb was used in each ?
> 
> Burgess,
> 
> ...


----------



## BigWaffles (Mar 1, 2009)

I finally got my 9P. Here is the runtime of the 9P with the Malkoff M60 on Surefire primaries.






Nice 2.5hrs regulated.


C.P.T.


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## BigWaffles (Mar 1, 2009)

Here is a compilation showing the Malkoff M60 in the 6P and the 9P. Both tests were run on Surefire primaries.






That extra battery gives it an extra hour of regulated runtime. The 9P just kept going at the end and didn't want to die.


C.P.T.


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## Bullzeyebill (Mar 1, 2009)

That comparison of M60 with 6P and 8P just throws me. I did not realize the extra cell with Gene's circuit would made such a difference in runtime, and I would have expected some higher output with 3 cells. Maybe it gets hotter with three cells dropping output and at the same time extending runtime. Would be interesting to see the M60 runtime with the module wrapped tightly with aluminum foil.

Bill


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## Phaserburn (Mar 1, 2009)

Any chance of seeing a Rebel 2D Mag on those great graphs?


----------



## Toohotruk (Mar 2, 2009)

Great work! :goodjob:

How about an ROV Sportsman Extreme 2AA 3W with alkies and Eneloops? 

I know it's not the most popular light around, but I do think it has a few fans around here. I know it's not too great on alkies, but when I run Eneloops (well "Duraloops"), the runtime seems respectable. :shrug:


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## Bullzeyebill (Mar 2, 2009)

Looks like the CR123's in the 6P, 9P M60 runs will allow around 10+ lumens for quite awhile. The 9P would really drain those cells. Would be interesting to see how the M60 would run using so called depleated CR123 cells, and there would not be enough current left in cells to cause any untoward problems, no cell venting, etc.

Bill


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## etc (Mar 2, 2009)

Most excellent, I really wanted to see 6P vs. 9P.


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## BigWaffles (Mar 3, 2009)

Phaserburn said:


> Any chance of seeing a Rebel 2D Mag on those great graphs?


 
Probably not, so far I haven't seen the new lights up here in Alaska. Also, I've heard that Maglite changed the head/light tower in them; I don't really want to buy a light just to test that's not compatible with my drop-ins. Sorry.


C.P.T.


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## jasonsmaglites (Mar 4, 2009)

BigWaffles said:


> Here is a compilation showing the Malkoff M60 in the 6P and the 9P. Both tests were run on Surefire primaries.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



adding batteries usually results in a disproportional increase in runtime. for instance, go from a 1aa fenix to a 2aa, you get MORE than double the runtime. go from a 2 cell light to a 3, and you get MORE than a 50% increase. once they get near to dying, or dropping out of regulation, those extra cells just make it so much easier to split the load and keep pushing.


----------



## Kestrel (Mar 4, 2009)

jasonsmaglites said:


> adding batteries usually results in a disproportional increase in runtime. for instance, go from a 1aa fenix to a 2aa, you get MORE than double the runtime. go from a 2 cell light to a 3, and you get MORE than a 50% increase. once they get near to dying, or dropping out of regulation, those extra cells just make it so much easier to split the load and keep pushing.


The thing here is that this is a comparison between the buck circuit of the M60 and the boost circuits of 1xAA and 2xAA which are considerably less efficient boosting 1xAA than 2xAA. I would agree with the extra available voltage near the end of their life, especially with regard to voltage sag under load (worse with 2x123 than with 3x123). I'd also like to add that the M60 is drawing less total current in the 3x123 configuration, and less current through the cell stack = lower power losses outside of the LED module.


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## etc (Mar 4, 2009)

jasonsmaglites said:


> adding batteries usually results in a disproportional increase in runtime. for instance, go from a 1aa fenix to a 2aa, you get MORE than double the runtime. go from a 2 cell light to a 3, and you get MORE than a 50% increase. once they get near to dying, or dropping out of regulation, those extra cells just make it so much easier to split the load and keep pushing.



Good to know this. Learn something new every day.


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## etc (Mar 4, 2009)

del .


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## JamisonM (Mar 4, 2009)

etc said:


> Maybe I am really missing something here, but how can the Nite-Ize 1W module have higher lumens than the MagLED module?
> 
> I have both. The Nite-Ize module is a very dim and very long-lasting module, nowhere near as bright as the 3W magLED module, I would say an order of magnitude less bright. How can 1W be brighter than 3W?
> 
> I suspect I am misreading something here, please clarify. Maybe it's some other module that came out that I am not aware of?


 My guess is, the LEDs in the Nite-Ize drop-ins are more efficient then a luxeon III or they can take the heat better.


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## etc (Mar 4, 2009)

delete


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## JamisonM (Mar 4, 2009)

etc said:


> Maybe it's not the same module we are talking about.
> 
> I got this Nite-Ize module in Wally Worlde, about $9, for the D sized M*g.
> 
> ...


Do you mean the Nite-Ize 10mm LED module and not their 1w drop-in?


----------



## etc (Mar 5, 2009)

Thanks for making it clear.

That's amazing that the 1W Nite-Ize module is brighter than 3W MagLED module.


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## Burgess (Mar 5, 2009)

Not really *amazing* at all !


Don't be "fooled" by that "3-Watt" moniker.




_


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## JamisonM (Mar 5, 2009)

Yep, they can say it's 3w all they want, but if it can't do anything with the heat it's making, it won't be a 3w for long. It's a widely know fact that the magLED modules drop in output because of heat. If they didn't they would likely burn up.


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## PoliceScannerMan (Mar 5, 2009)

BigWaffles, you are the man!! These runtime tests are great, thanks so much for doing this service to CPF! :wave:


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## Illum (Mar 5, 2009)

JamisonM said:


> My guess is, the LEDs in the Nite-Ize drop-ins are more efficient then a luxeon III or they can take the heat better.



According to NewBie's dissection pictures, My guess is the MagLED's sense resistor thats causing the inefficiency. Nite-ize might have somehow did away with it, one less cooker in the house equals better cooling:thinking:


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## BigWaffles (Mar 6, 2009)

Ok, I finally finished the NiMH runtimes for the 4D & 6D Maglites with the Malkoff Drop-in. I conditioned the NiMHs with 3 charge/discharge cycles before running the tests.

Here is the 4D Maglite with a Malkoff drop-in running on Titanium 12000Mah NiMHs.






A definite improvement over the alkalines. Almost 10.5hrs of flat runtime and then another 11.5hrs of diminishing output. Not bad.


C.P.T.


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## BigWaffles (Mar 6, 2009)

Here is the 6D Maglite with a Malkoff drop-in running on Titanium 12000Mah NiMHs.






The NiMHs gave just over 17hrs of regulated runtime  but once it dropped out of regulation it was pretty much finished.


C.P.T.


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## BigWaffles (Mar 6, 2009)

Here is a compilation graph of the 4D & 6D with Energizer Alkalines and the Titanium NiMHs.





Not much to say except that NiMHs rock.:rock: Although the 6D showed slightly lower LUX values (~450LUX lower on average) it wasn't noticable. The extra regulated runtime was a nice suprise, although it was kind of strange that there was almost no Moon Mode. Once the NiMHs dropped off, they finished quickly. Must be some property of the rechargables.

Full .xls files and originals of these graphs can be downloaded from the site in my sig. Enjoy.


C.P.T.


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## etc (Mar 6, 2009)

Could you estimate the runtime of Malkoff module in M*g 3D? I have one and your charts are pursuiding me to upgrade to the 4D Malkoff. 

(The module I have is for 2-3D M*g)


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## Bullzeyebill (Mar 6, 2009)

The 6D does very well with Alkaline's and might be the choice for those who do not want to mess with NiMh's. Also, the alkaline D's will not have that dreaded self discharge rate that NiMh's have. Better to use Alkalines in the 6D than the 4D for better flat runtime, and length of runtime, of course.

Bill


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## BigWaffles (Mar 6, 2009)

etc said:


> Could you estimate the runtime of Malkoff module in M*g 3D? I have one and your charts are pursuiding me to upgrade to the 4D Malkoff.
> 
> (The module I have is for 2-3D M*g)


 
etc,

I've been curious as well to see how the Malkoff performs in the smaller Mags. Gene just got those back in stock and I've got one on order. I'll test in both the 2D and 3D on alkalines and NiMHs when it gets here (hopefully 7-10 days).



Bullzeyebill said:


> The 6D does very well with Alkaline's and might be the choice for those who do not want to mess with NiMh's. Also, the alkaline D's will not have that dreaded self discharge rate that NiMh's have. Better to use Alkalines in the 6D than the 4D for better flat runtime, and length of runtime, of course.
> 
> Bill


 
Bullzeyebill,

I agree that the alkalines are a good option for this setup. I am currently reading up about the self-discharge on the NiMHs and am wishing someone would make a 'D' cell Eneloop  but they don't seem to even be on the horizon (not sure why). I'm not ready to run parallel 'AA' Eneloops in a holder so for now I'll probably use fresh charghed NiMHs when I head out the door and have a backup set of alkalines on hand if needed.


C.P.T.


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## BigWaffles (Mar 6, 2009)

For those of you interested, here is my test setup:

All measurements are taken with an Extech Datalogging Light Meter, Model 401036. It's connected to a laptop to log the data in realtime.

I made a light box constructed with instructions found on FlashlightReviews.com -http://www.flashlightreviews.com/fea...box_output.htm

The only difference in the light box was that I put my sensor and baffle on the side and the light in the end.

Here is the setup:







Pretty simple and easy to use, just start it and let it run.

Unless otherwise indicated, tests were run with the following batteries (as applicable):

Surefire CR123As
Energizer Alkaline (default)
Energizer Lithium Ultras 
Titanium 12000Mah NiMHs

Some early graphs have no indication and are using Energizer Alkalines.
Tests using Energizer Alkalines should be indicated on the graphs as Alkaline.
Tests using Energizer Lithium Ultras are indicated on the graphs as Lithium.
Tests using Titanium 12000Mah NiMHs are indicated on the graphs as NiMH. 

C.P.T.


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## etc (Mar 6, 2009)

Awesome. I would love to see the graph of 3D Malkoff superimposed on 4D and 6D, like you did with Surefire 6P and 9P.


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## JamisonM (Mar 6, 2009)

BigWaffles said:


> I agree that the alkalines are a good option for this setup. I am currently reading up about the self-discharge on the NiMHs and am wishing someone would make a 'D' cell Eneloop  but they don't seem to even be on the horizon (not sure why). I'm not ready to run parallel 'AA' Eneloops in a holder so for now I'll probably use fresh charghed NiMHs when I head out the door and have a backup set of alkalines on hand if needed.
> 
> 
> C.P.T.


You can buy high mAh D NiMHs. Thomas Distributing has them from two companies. Eneloops are also available in C and D sizes, but they have lower mAh then the cells from thomas distributing and they sill aren't available in the states yet.


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## BigWaffles (Mar 7, 2009)

JamisonM said:


> You can buy high mAh D NiMHs. Thomas Distributing has them from two companies. Eneloops are also available in C and D sizes, but they have lower mAh then the cells from thomas distributing and they sill aren't available in the states yet.


 
I completely missed the cells from Thomas Distributing (or haven't read that far down the battery forum yet). Does anyone have experience with the Accupower Evolution D 10000mAh batteries? 2% loss per month seems promising.

That's kind of what I meant about D sized Eneloops not being on the horizon, any rumors when they might make it over here to the states? Also, 5700mAh doesn't sound all that great.


C.P.T.


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## etc (Mar 7, 2009)

I have both C and D in ACcupower Evolution but haven't ran any tests for self-discharge. Appear to be solid cells.


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## Kestrel (Mar 7, 2009)

BigWaffles said:


> That's kind of what I meant about D sized Eneloops not being on the horizon, any rumors when they might make it over here to the states? Also, 5700mAh doesn't sound all that great.


It doesn't sound all that great to me either. The last I read, the going theory was that C eneloops were 3p AAA, while the D eneloops were 3p AA. The posted capacities apparently matched perfectly with this theory. New info might have come out more recently, but that was what I've heard about it.


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## BigWaffles (Mar 17, 2009)

Ok. Finally got the Malkoff Mag 2D & 3D drop-in and here is the first run. This is a 2D Maglite with the Malkoff drop-in running on Energizer Alkalines.






Not bad, it held over 4000Lux for 31hrs :huh:. On his site Gene states that the 2D Maglite will run 3+ hours with this drop-in. Technically he is correct . Now we know the rest of the story.


C.P.T.


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## BigWaffles (Mar 17, 2009)

Here is the same 2D Maglite with the Malkoff drop-in on fresh Titanium 12000MaH NiMHs.






Not bad. It held over 5000Lux for 24.5hrs. I'm liking these NiMHs more and more.


C.P.T.


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## JamisonM (Mar 17, 2009)

BigWaffles said:


> Not bad. It held over 5000Lux for 24.5hrs. I'm liking these NiMHs more and more.
> 
> 
> C.P.T.


Great Post BigWaffles. Yeah, NiMH are great aren't they. I don't use anything else in my good lights. I wonder what causes such a large dip at the beginning? I can understand the alkalines doing it, but the NiMH too? How do you think a 3D maglite would perform? Here's a runtime chart from an older thread. Looks like it would be the halfway point, between the 2D and 4D and up.


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## BigWaffles (Mar 17, 2009)

Looks like one of my posts got dropped. Here is the comparison graph of the Alkaline and NiMH for the 2D Maglite with the Malkoff:






The scale on this one is in hours, a little more readable.

These graphs are up on the site in my sig. Enjoy.



JamisonM said:


> Great Post BigWaffles. Yeah, NiMH are great aren't they. I don't use anything else in my good lights. I wonder what causes such a large dip at the beginning? I can understand the alkalines doing it, but the NiMH too? How do you think a 3D maglite would perform? Here's a runtime chart from an older thread. Looks like it would be the halfway point, between the 2D and 4D and up.


 
Thanks JasonM. I'm not sure about the dip, it looks like thermal regulation but the Maglite didn't even get warm at the beginning. 

I have a 3D Mag on the bench right now; graphs should be up in a couple of days.


C.P.T.


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## BigWaffles (Mar 21, 2009)

Ok, I just finished the runtimes for the 3D Maglite with a Malkoff drop-in. Here is a compilation of the 3D Maglite with Energizer Alkalines and Titanium 12000MaH NiMHs.






Not that impressive. I think this drop-in works better at the lower current draw in the 2D Maglite.


C.P.T.


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## BigWaffles (Mar 21, 2009)

Here is a compilation of the 2D, 3D, 4D, and 6D Maglites with the Malkoff drop-in running on Energizer Alkalines.






The 2D Maglite really shows its stuff here, holding over 4000Lux for 30hrs. Not bad for some run-of-the-mill alkalines. 


C.P.T.


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## BigWaffles (Mar 21, 2009)

Here is a compilation of the 2D, 3D, 4D, and 6D Maglites with the Malkoff drop-in running on Titanium 12000MaH NiMHs.






Again, the 2D Maglite seems to be a "Best Value" for runtime and brightness. I'll be keeping the 6D Malkoff for around the house but I might be replacing my 3D Mag LEDs with the 2D Malkoffs. The higher current draw of the 3D Maglite seems to kill the runtime curve on the Malkoff.

All the posted graphs in this thread are up on the website in my sig. Enjoy.


C.P.T.


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## JamisonM (Mar 21, 2009)

I wonder why the 3D is so much brighter than the 4D and 6D?


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## Alan B (Mar 21, 2009)

JamisonM said:


> I wonder why the 3D is so much brighter than the 4D and 6D?



Different regulator. Probably a boost regulator in overdrive in the 3D, and a buck regulator in the 4-6D.


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## metlarules (Mar 21, 2009)

Alan B said:


> Different regulator. Probably a boost regulator in overdrive in the 3D, and a buck regulator in the 4-6D.


 I fail to see how it could be a boost circuit when the batteries are putting out more than the vf of the led for most of its run.


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## Alan B (Mar 21, 2009)

metlarules said:


> I fail to see how it could be a boost circuit when the batteries are putting out more than the vf of the led for most of its run.



Malkoff makes a 2-3D model and a 4-6D model. So the 2-3D model must be a boost. On 3D it is a bit overdriven so the current will be higher and the batteries consumed faster. Then it boosts on weakened cells.


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## Bullzeyebill (Mar 21, 2009)

metlarules said:


> I fail to see how it could be a boost circuit when the batteries are putting out more than the vf of the led for most of its run.



The 2D and 3D circuit would be similar to the M30 circuit. With M30 highest output is with 4.2 volts or so, and lower runtime. M30 with 2XAA NiMh's has a lower output and more stable runtime.

Bill


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## Gene43 (Mar 21, 2009)

The 2-3D regulator is actually a boost that is hardset to output 5v no matter the input voltage. The IC has a built in switch with a self imposed current limit. It needs about 3.3-3.5v for 1000ma output. Above/below that the switch current limit creates more/less output according to (following) input voltage.

Thanks, Gene


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## etc (Mar 22, 2009)

BigWaffles said:


> Here is a compilation of the 2D, 3D, 4D, and 6D Maglites with the Malkoff drop-in running on Titanium 12000MaH NiMHs.
> 
> 
> C.P.T.



Most excellent, thank you. *applause*


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## Burgess (Mar 22, 2009)

Sure would like to see that Malkoff 2-D cell Mag-lite

compared to the *New* 2-D cell Mag-lite LED (Rebel) flashlight.



_


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## etc (Mar 23, 2009)

Malkoff 4D looks most impressive in that group, IMO. 6D is very impressive also but practical?


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## 22hornet (Mar 23, 2009)

Burgess said:


> Sure would like to see that Malkoff 2-D cell Mag-lite
> 
> compared to the *New* 2-D cell Mag-lite LED (Rebel) flashlight.
> 
> ...


Indeed. and how the 2 cell alkaline Malkoff would compare to the 2 cell alkaline Terralux TLE6-EXB.

Kind regards and thanks again for posting these runtime graphs!

Joris


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## 22hornet (Mar 23, 2009)

Hello,

fwiw: these 2 cell alkaline malkoff runtime graphs remind me of the ARC AAA runtime graphs .

Keep well,
Joris


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## BigWaffles (Mar 26, 2009)

Burgess said:


> Sure would like to see that Malkoff 2-D cell Mag-lite compared to the *New* 2-D cell Mag-lite LED (Rebel) flashlight.
> 
> 
> _


 


22hornet said:


> Indeed. and how the 2 cell alkaline Malkoff would compare to the 2 cell alkaline Terralux TLE6-EXB.
> 
> Kind regards and thanks again for posting these runtime graphs!
> 
> Joris


 
Sorry guys, it probably won't happen. I don't want to purchase the new Maglites as they don't have the same internals as the originals; the only reason I'd purchase one is to test it. Also, I sold my Terralux TLE6-EXB. :shrug:


C.P.T.


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## Toohotruk (Mar 27, 2009)

Not even the new multi-level MiniMag Rebel LED? 

Or if you feel ambitious, how about starting on some Fenix lights...say the L1D Q5?


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## JamisonM (Mar 27, 2009)

Toohotruk said:


> Not even the new multi-level MiniMag Rebel LED?
> 
> Or if you feel ambitious, how about starting on some Fenix lights...say the L1D Q5?


Why not set something up. Send BigWaffles the light and let him get a chart. He sends the light back and posts the info.


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## BigWaffles (Mar 27, 2009)

JamisonM said:


> Why not set something up. Send BigWaffles the light and let him get a chart. He sends the light back and posts the info.


 
JamisonM,

That's a good idea, unfortunately I'll be packing up and heading to the sand box here shortly and will have to put things on hold until this fall. Just when things were getting interesting.


C.P.T.


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## Bullzeyebill (Mar 27, 2009)

BigWaffles said:


> JamisonM,
> 
> That's a good idea, unfortunately I'll be packing up and heading to the sand box here shortly and will have to put things on hold until this fall. Just when things were getting interesting.
> 
> ...



Thanks for your work here. Keep safe.

Bill


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## JamisonM (Mar 27, 2009)

Bullzeyebill said:


> Thanks for your work here. Keep safe.
> 
> Bill


Ditto. Post when you get back. I've got one of the craftsman 1-5 cell PR drop-ins that I've swapped the luxeon I with a seoul P4. I'd like to see the numbers on it when you get back.


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## Burgess (Mar 28, 2009)

to Big_Waffles --


Best of Luck (and health) to you and your loved ones
during your new assignment.


:wave:

_


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## :)> (Mar 28, 2009)

Based on these runtime graph's, I moved my Malkoff's out of my 3D's and put them in my 2D's. It is hard to argue with 33 hours at over 4000 lux in such a small package.


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## BigWaffles (Mar 28, 2009)

Bullzeyebill said:


> Thanks for your work here. Keep safe.
> 
> Bill


 


JamisonM said:


> Ditto. Post when you get back. I've got one of the craftsman 1-5 cell PR drop-ins that I've swapped the luxeon I with a seoul P4. I'd like to see the numbers on it when you get back.


 


Burgess said:


> to Big_Waffles --
> 
> 
> Best of Luck (and health) to you and your loved ones
> ...


 
Thanks for the support, I appreciate it.



:)> said:


> Based on these runtime graph's, I moved my Malkoff's out of my 3D's and put them in my 2D's. It is hard to argue with 33 hours at over 4000 lux in such a small package.


 
I'm doing somthing similar but I want to keep my 3D Maglite host so I'm going to run a dummy D cell in the 3D Maglite. The closest thing I've found for a dummy D is an AA to D adapter with a dummy AA cell. I'm going to dismantle a spent D cell this weekend and see if I can't take the end caps and attach them to a piece of PVC with a center connector. Should be interesting.


C.P.T.


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## Toohotruk (Mar 28, 2009)

Your work here and especially overseas is much appreciated! :twothumbs

Take care of yourself and be safe...I look forward to you coming back and picking up where you left off.


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## divine (Mar 30, 2009)

I wonder how the older malkoff modules look on that graph.


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## etc (Apr 4, 2009)

BigWaffles said:


> Here is a compilation of the 2D, 3D, 4D, and 6D Maglites with the Malkoff drop-in running on Titanium 12000MaH NiMHs.
> 
> Again, the 2D Maglite seems to be a "Best Value" for runtime and brightness.
> ..........



I did something interesting here, I calculated the area under each curve to get an idea of how efficient each config is. I used the NiMH chart.
Then I divided that number by the number of the cells in the setup.

It does confirm the obvious that 2D gives you most lite - less bright but longest runtime.

But it also suggests that there is no huge difference in efficiency between 3D, 4D and 6D configurations. It looks like sorted by efficiency we get:
2D, 4D, 3D, 6D




2D:
149/2 = 74.50000000000000000000

3D: 
132/3 = 44.00000000000000000000

4D: 
199/4 = 49.75000000000000000000

6D: 
245/6 = 40.83333333333333333333


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## :)> (Apr 4, 2009)

This is one of the greatest threads ever! 

Big Waffles,

If you haven't left yet, could you do a runtime test on the Malkoff 4 to 6 D drop-in in a 3D cell Mag?

I would be interested to see what happens to the output / runtime in this configuration.


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## BigWaffles (Apr 4, 2009)

:)> said:


> This is one of the greatest threads ever!
> 
> Big Waffles,
> 
> ...


 
I could probably squeeze it in before I pack up the test station. Let me see what I can do.


C.P.T.


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## :)> (Apr 4, 2009)

BigWaffles said:


> I could probably squeeze it in before I pack up the test station. Let me see what I can do.
> 
> 
> C.P.T.


 
:thumbsup:


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## BigWaffles (Apr 12, 2009)

Ok, it finally died. Here is the Mag 3D with a Malkoff 4-6D drop-in running on Energizer Alkalines. The graphtimes are in hours.







This is by far the longest running combo I've tested. 45hrs to 3000Lux and almost 180hrs to 500Lux. The graph isn't very flat but still produces useful light for a long time. Full graph and .xls is up on the website in my sig.


C.P.T.


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## jasonsmaglites (Apr 12, 2009)

hmmm... run a 4-6d malkoff on 2 batts and we'll get ridiculous runtime, hmmm? actually i bet it would just fall off faster, then run almost as long but not quite. 

best thread on cpf! keep up the good work bw


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## steveG (May 2, 2009)

*Re: Want to post some runtime graphs*

Am I missing something, or does the M60LL actually last 10 hours longer than the Malkoff website says it's supposed to?



Malkoffdevices.com said:


> The output is 80+/- bulb lumens. The current draw is approximately 170ma at 6 volts. The runtime is approximately 8 hours, at full output, on 2 CR123 primary batteries.





BigWaffles said:


> Here's a compilation graph (these sure are cool) showing the differences between the Surefire 6P & G3L hosts and the Surefire P60L and Malkoff M60LL modules. All tests were run on Surefire primaries.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## :)> (May 2, 2009)

Thank you for the 4 to 6D Malkoff in a 3D... I like it alot!

Take care.


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## :)> (May 3, 2009)

After looking at the 3D Mag with the 4D to 6D Malkoff, I am very, very impressed. The runtime curve is the same as the 2D with the 2D to 3D Malkoff only longer and this is exactly what I was hoping for.

I really love the Malkoff Mag's! Nothing like them for long running, good output lighting. CR123's just can't do this the way that the big lights with big batteries can. Time to buy some more Malkoff's!


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## steveG (May 6, 2009)

*Re: Want to post some runtime graphs*



steveG said:


> Am I missing something, or does the M60LL actually last 10 hours longer than the Malkoff website says it's supposed to?




Anyone?


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## TMedina (May 12, 2009)

"The runtime is approximately 8 hours, at full output, on 2 CR123 primary batteries."

The key phrase is "at full output" - you will see a longer run at a diminishing output as the batteries slowly die.

If I understand the question correctly.

-Trevor


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## steveG (May 12, 2009)

I suppose you're right, I'm just shocked by the fact that it has what I would consider virtually flat output for about 18 hours. Impressive.


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## etc (May 14, 2009)

I think I will keep my 3D Malkoff, even though some of these are also pretty impressive, like 4D (to me, anyway)



> Does anybody else have one flashlight that they swap heads/drop-ins as needed or is it just easier to have multiple flashlights each with a deadicated module? Thanks.



I just don't use M*g enough ever since I got the Surefire 9P and modules. To answer your question, easier to have several different lites. I have several P60 Malkoff modules:

1. Standard M60
2. M60 modded to run on 12V (i. e. 4x123 cells) Same lumens but longer runtime.
3. M30 that I run on 3xAA - great lumens with a long tail

Hard to say which one I like more. Am thinking about a M60LL designed to run on 12V - now that would be some runtime.

Anyway, most excellent info, thanks for all the work.


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## PoliceScannerMan (Jul 11, 2009)

BigWaffles said:


> Ok, it finally died. Here is the Mag 3D with a Malkoff 4-6D drop-in running on Energizer Alkalines. The graphtimes are in hours.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Man, I gotta tell you after reading this, I took apart a 3D Mag85 and put the Mag back to stock, and I have the 4-6D module on the way from Gene Malkoff. 

This is gonna be a great hurricane light!

Just for reference, what light tops out at 500 lux?


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## PoliceScannerMan (Jul 11, 2009)

BigWaffles, could you superimpose the graph of the 2-3D Malkoff graph running 3D on alkalines along with the 3D running the 4-6D Malkoff with alkalines? Thanks!


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## Toohotruk (Jul 11, 2009)

I think he's in Iraq (or Afghanistan?)... :shakehead


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## Burgess (Jul 11, 2009)

We are all awaiting his safe return to CPF !


:candle:

_


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## PoliceScannerMan (Jul 11, 2009)

Toohotruk said:


> I think he's in Iraq (or Afghanistan?)... :shakehead



Oh, well in that case, come home safe!! :thumbsup:


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## Toohotruk (Jul 12, 2009)

Definitely!


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## BigWaffles (Jul 12, 2009)

PoliceScannerMan said:


> BigWaffles, could you superimpose the graph of the 2-3D Malkoff graph running 3D on alkalines along with the 3D running the 4-6D Malkoff with alkalines? Thanks!


PoliceScannerMan,

I'll see what I can do on my next day off. Internet access is a bit spotty over here so no promises.



Burgess said:


> We are all awaiting his safe return to CPF !
> :candle:
> _


 


Toohotruk said:


> Definitely!


 
Thanks!


C.P.T.


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## PoliceScannerMan (Jul 12, 2009)

BigWaffles said:


> PoliceScannerMan,
> 
> I'll see what I can do on my next day off. Internet access is a bit spotty over here so no promises.
> 
> ...



No worries, you have way bigger fish to fry, didnt know you were in the sandbox! Be safe.


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## BigWaffles (Jul 18, 2009)

PoliceScannerMan said:


> BigWaffles, could you superimpose the graph of the 2-3D Malkoff graph running 3D on alkalines along with the 3D running the 4-6D Malkoff with alkalines? Thanks!


 
PoliceScannerMan

Here you go. This is the 3D Maglite running on Alkalines. It has the 2-3D Malkoff and the 4-6D Malkoff. I've also included the 2D Maglite with the 2-3D Malkoff on Alkalines for comparison. The scale is in hours.






As you can see, the 2-3D Malkoff in the 3D Mag drops off relatively fast (13hrs) while the 4-6D just keeps going. I threw the 2D Mag with the 2-3D Malkoff in because I noticed that up until 33hrs it has an identical graph to the 3D Mag with the 4-6D Malkoff (Just slightly lower). I wonder if they share some of the same parts.

Looks like the 3D Mag with the 4-6D Malkoff is a good combo. Over 3000Lux for 45hrs and then another 12hrs of very usable light. In an extreme emergency, you know you'll have over 150hrs of usable 'indoor' light. Might not light up the front yard but it'll get you around the house.

For reference, the Fenix E01 puts out appx. 750lux. It lights up a small room fairly well so I figure that 500Lux is a good lower limit.

All these graphs and the .xls spreadsheets are available on the website at the bottom of my post. Enjoy.


C.P.T.


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## Bullzeyebill (Jul 19, 2009)

Nice of you to do this from "over there". Hurry home.

Bill


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## Illum (Sep 12, 2009)

Any word on the runtime for the new malkoff?
D sized P7 dropin?


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## Toohotruk (Sep 12, 2009)

And how about runtimes for the various drop-ins with a single RCR123 in his twisty?

I know, I know, it's a pretty tall order...


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## Bullzeyebill (Sep 12, 2009)

Big Waffles is still in the sand.

Bill


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## Toohotruk (Sep 12, 2009)

Bullzeyebill said:


> Big Waffles is still in the sand.
> 
> Bill




I forgot.


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## metlarules (Nov 19, 2009)

BigWaffles said:


> Ok, it finally died. Here is the Mag 3D with a Malkoff 4-6D drop-in running on Energizer Alkalines. The graphtimes are in hours.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 I wonder if this would work with a Magled drop in? Meaning a 4d mag drop in in a 3d host. That would probably get some serious runtimes due to the lower current draw. :thinking:


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## flashy bazook (Feb 3, 2012)

Hey folks, bigwaffles' great work in this topic (runtime graphs for various Malkoff P60 type drop-in configurations) seems to have disappeared. No pictures of his results, and his sig website is also non-existing.

Can someone who received the spreadsheet file with his results please repost it here to a live link? I see from the thread some have gotten it directly from him.

It's a shame to lose such a lot of work...


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## T45 (Feb 4, 2012)

flashy bazook said:


> Hey folks, bigwaffles' great work in this topic (runtime graphs for various Malkoff P60 type drop-in configurations) seems to have disappeared. No pictures of his results, and his sig website is also non-existing.
> 
> Can someone who received the spreadsheet file with his results please repost it here to a live link? I see from the thread some have gotten it directly from him.
> 
> It's a shame to lose such a lot of work...



Maybe someone could export it to google documents?


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## Bullzeyebill (Feb 4, 2012)

flashy bazook said:


> Hey folks, bigwaffles' great work in this topic (runtime graphs for various Malkoff P60 type drop-in configurations) seems to have disappeared. No pictures of his results, and his sig website is also non-existing.
> 
> Can someone who received the spreadsheet file with his results please repost it here to a live link? I see from the thread some have gotten it directly from him.
> 
> It's a shame to lose such a lot of work...



Try here for some of Big Waffles runtime graphs.

Bill


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## flashy bazook (Feb 7, 2012)

Bullzeyebill said:


> Try here for some of Big Waffles runtime graphs.
> 
> Bill



Bill,

thank you very much! I had not seen this thread and it is great!

On Big Waffles' work, though, the links loop back to his own thread and the information is therefore still unavailable.


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## Vortus (Feb 7, 2012)

Glad someone revived this one. Thanks!


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## Bullzeyebill (Feb 8, 2012)

Click on the graphs in link I provided. I see what you mean re the original graphs in his original thread. They had been removed by photobucket apparently, so click on the graphs and go back and forth between his thread and the graphs.

Bill


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## flashy bazook (Feb 8, 2012)

Bullzeyebill said:


> Click on the graphs in link I provided. I see what you mean re the original graphs in his original thread. They had been removed by photobucket apparently, so click on the graphs and go back and forth between his thread and the graphs.
> 
> Bill



Thanks again, I see what you are saying and it works for the Bio Waffle graphs in post #1. By some unlucky coincidence, the Bio Waffle Malkoff runtimes are linked in post #26, where Illum says:

"For the following ones I simply used BigWaffles links as they are hosted on photobucket also...for me to put them in thumbnails would require me to rehost them after saving them to my computer...Hopefully no one will complain of too much pictures as this "

Soooooo....lost to the ether, I guess. 

​Thanks again anyway.


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## Toohotruk (Feb 8, 2012)

So does anybody know if Big W is OK? It's been a long time since he's made an appearance here, and considering where he was sent...well, I just hope he's alright. :candle:


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