# Flashlight For Self-Defense



## lightemittingharry

I always carry around a flashlight in my pocket (for paranoia reasons) yet I've never really needed to use it. Apparently a flashlight of 50 lumen or more can blind and disorient an assailant with night adapted vision. Is this true? Has anybody actually encountered a mugger, or something other, and escaped safely with the flick of their flashlight?:naughty:


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## half-watt

lightemittingharry said:


> I always carry around a flashlight in my pocket (for paranoia reasons) yet I've never really needed to use it. Apparently a flashlight of 50 lumen or more can blind and disorient an assailant with night adapted vision. Is this true? Has anybody actually encountered a mugger, or something other, and escaped safely with the flick of their flashlight?:naughty:




would that be a slow-footed mugger without a gun that is being referred to?

more seriously, no. haven't been in that situation while having a flashlight. i too would be interested in other's first-hand experiences.


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## lightemittingharry

Maybe somebody with slow wits and a short knife -- yeah... So anybody got any stories? No?


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## ACMarina

I tried it with my brother and his wrestling team. They stood at about 10 yards, I blasted them in the eyes, and they tried to grab me. They were unarmed, and I'm glad - they all got close enough to grab me pretty easily.

I tried with several types of light, and the only one that really messed with them was a mini-HID, and it wasn't one that instantly striked, so it would only be of limited use in a situation like that. Of course, the 4D Maglite to the stomach worked pretty well, too..


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## Rzr800

I would guess that if you're to the point of blinding somebody with your flashlight for any length of time..one might as well hit 'em in the eyes _again_ with the 'bear spray' in your other hand...and _then_ run! *(or)*  :touche:


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## 270winchester

if you intend on carrying a light for self-defense, i advise you carry a small one, so it won't hurt as much when your attacker shoves it up your a**
.


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## thebigx

270winchester said:


> if you intend on carrying a light for self-defense, i advise you carry a small one, so it won't hurt as much when your attacker shoves it up your a**
> .



hahahaha sorry but this made me LMAO!


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## drizler

*Re: Flashlight For Self-Defense FORGET IT*

Do yourself a favor. If you are concerned about self defense get yourself a can of old fashioned spray mace in a can. Not the newer pepper spray but the old fashioned mace using CN powder. I am issued it and I don't even carry the new stuff. You need to fire it like a squirt gun and hit them in the eyes, SPELL THAT AMBUSH. Thats something you won't achieve with a mugger. The old type are an aerosol spray and get all over them which is what you want. Believe me on this its very true. Think of a squirt gun that is what you have with the pepper spray. Go with the old Mace its more foolproof which is what you want. OJT with this stuff is not what you want unless you carry a gun for a living like I do. You want to hose the guy and get out of there fast. Shining a light in his eyes won't do a thing except give him another excuse to give you a beating.


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## kimjune01

BUMP.
How many lumens does it take to essentially blind him for a few seconds? If an EDC-able flashlight can be used for self defense, how much $$? Thanks


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## Monocrom

kimjune01 said:


> BUMP.
> How many lumens does it take to essentially blind him for a few seconds? If an EDC-able flashlight can be used for self defense, how much $$? Thanks


 
Okay.... As someone with actual self-defense training, here's the deal:

You can forget about blinding an attacker for a few seconds. That's not happening. That's way too much time. More like a second, perhaps two. If we're talking about a very poorly lit place, I wouldn't trust anything below 200 lumens _out the front. (_Not those over inflated emitter lumens that most companies quote). 

Main problem is that many places have too much ambient lighting. Street lights, interior lights in clubs, lobby lights in apartment complexes. You can forget about blinding your attacker with a blast of light from your EDC. Ironically, the only truly dark places you'll encounter in a city is on the express way.... Where the overhead lights are sometimes turned off because greedy city politicians who ride in limos have no clue that car headlights are sometimes not enough for drivers to be able to see! 

Want a defensive light? Get one that is made from aluminum and is long enough to take two CR123 cells. I recommend a model with a pocket-carry clip and *no* strike-bezel. (If the head is made of aluminum, you don't need a strike-bezel). With the head extending below the bottom of your fist, you now have an excellent hammer-fist enhancer. With a 3-cell light in a open-top holster, you have an excellent yawara stick. 

Don't know what those terms mean? Find out, get trained. A flashlight is not a magic wand that will protect you. Get training! Then get a good light.


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## houtex

Okay here's the deal.... I work in a niteclub and have used the light in the eyes trick with great success. You gotta move though, blinding light in the eyes and like Mono said you might get a 2 second jump on someone. That's in the club though. On the street it's my G19. you wouldn't use a gun to light your way down a dark alley, don't use a flashlight to defend your life. Get trained,practice,practice,practice, remove yourself from any sitiuation if you can as soon as possible. As far as the light,the brighter the better for that purpose but if you try the light trick and it don't work what will you do then?


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## kimjune01

Thanks a lot guys for the advice. I appreciate that.
The only reason that I want to use a flashlight above anything else is that light in their eyes doesn't hurt them. I don't like being hurt so I'm sure the attacker doesn't want to get hurt, either(my Christian pacifism comes with a big debate but let's not go there). Given that guns, maces, peppersprays and brass knuckles are illegal here in Canada along with self-defense knives, I just want a safer alternative. The attacker will not have a gun on them and if all they want is the cash in my pocket, then I'll try my best to avoid physical conflict. Having said that, I think the hammerfist thing is a good idea. If you have anything to recommend within my boundaries of self-defense, please tell me. 
So, how much does 200+ lumens edc cost? I'm willing to carry around anything near the size of the A2. thanks


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## Lightraven

I assume Tasers are illegal in Canada?

My question is: What is your 100 yard sprint time?

Do you have anybody you might want to protect, such as your wife or children?

If you are a sprinter, by yourself, you may very well be able to simply run for it. Otherwise, I think you are best to give the robber what he demands--because you simply can't win a fight without the means to do so.

I think anybody shining a flashlight at a bad guy, without other more effective action is requesting serious injury or death.


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## Monocrom

kimjune01 said:


> Thanks a lot guys for the advice. I appreciate that.
> *The only reason that I want to use a flashlight above anything else is that light in their eyes doesn't hurt them. I don't like being hurt so I'm sure the attacker doesn't want to get hurt*, either(my Christian pacifism comes with a big debate but let's not go there). Given that guns, maces, peppersprays and brass knuckles are illegal here in Canada along with self-defense knives, I just want a safer alternative. The attacker will not have a gun on them and if all they want is the cash in my pocket, then I'll try my best to avoid physical conflict. Having said that, I think the hammerfist thing is a good idea. If you have anything to recommend within my boundaries of self-defense, please tell me.
> So, how much does 200+ lumens edc cost? I'm willing to carry around anything near the size of the A2. thanks


 
Tell me you did not just post that!! 



Oh for God's sake.... Listen, if you end up remembering only one thing from my posts several years down the road, let it be the following; _You have way the Hell the wrong mindset! _

I'm not talking about your religion, I mean your mindset. One of the best ways to tell if a self-defense instructor is "for real" or just a con-man is to listen to what he says. If he only tells you $#^% you want to hear, don't waste your money taking his classes. If he tells you he's going to show you how to defend yourself without hurting your attacker, then he's a f**king con-man! Effectively defending yourself against an attacker, without hurting him.... That's like two gay men trying get each other pregnant. Not gonna happen!

We're talking about someone who is trying to murder you. Do you understand that part? We're talking about someone who doesn't give a damn about you in any way, shape, or form. He doesn't care if you have a family. He doesn't care if you have children. He doesn't care if you're the only one taking care of your elderly mom or dad. He doesn't care that he's about to make your wife a widow. He doesn't care that your children will never see daddy again. 

All he cares about is perhaps that nice watch that you're wearing on your wrist. And while it's unlikely that an attacker will have a gun, in Canada, I'm willing to bet there are no restrictions on buying large kitchen cutlery up where you live. Hell, even a small steak knife will do the job. All you need is two pieces of cardboard and some tape for an improvised sheath. And if you're a bit too slow in handing over your nice watch, your attacker will have no problem at all in stabbing you and taking it off your wrist. That's reality! That's what your life is worth to him. 

Here's another scenario, you hand over your wallet with your credit cards in it, and he _still _kills you! Why? If he leaves you alive, first thing you'll do is cancel those cards. If you're dead, he can sell your credit cards for about $200 more on the Blackmarket because it will take several hours before anyone realizes that your cards are being used by someone other than you. That's what your Life is worth to an attacker.... an extra $200. 

Yes, sometimes you're just dealing with a mugger. _Sometimes_, all they want is your money. But if they pull any sort of weapon on you, you still have no clue if they'll use it. Sometimes you have to trust your gut. If it's only about money, give it to him. A good idea is to carry your money in a cheap moneyclip. You get mugged, pull out the clip, tell him that's all the money you have, then toss the clip in one direction while you run screaming like a lunatic in the other. Now; if you're a mugger, what would you do? Go after the screaming lunatic who has no money on him? Or walk over to the nice, quiet, moneyclip that's just laying a few feet away, waiting to be picked up.

The good thing is, you're not a woman. So, you don't have to worry about getting raped. But what if you're out with your wife or girlfriend, or having lunch with your daughter or mom. And two or three attackers come along.... and they're _less _interested in you.... You really going to care whether or not you hurt them? 

Least expensive light that's capable of putting out about 200 lumens out the front is a Fenix T1. The clip is less than great, but it's functional and allows instant access to the light. Surefire will soon be coming out with their new and improved U2 models. The Optimus can produce 200 lumens on high, the Invictus does 400 lumens on high. I will be purchasing an Invictus soon after it comes out.

But like I said earlier, using your light to actually strike an attacker is going to be far more useful than how many lumens it puts out. Based on that, the A2 is a very good choice. It's long enough, the clip allows instant access to the light without fumbling with a holster or trying to dig the light out of the bottom of a pocket. 

Don't misinterpret my post. I'm not saying you're stupid. I _am_ saying that your mindset of not hurting an attacker who's trying to murder you, that's stupid. But that can be changed.


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## quokked

Whoa....
Best flashlight self defense post i've seen on CPF in a while oo:

Another tip i've seen in travel guides is that of a decoy wallet, 
you stuff the wallet full of zimbabwe dollars (or other cheap currency), old/cancelled credit cards and you keep it on yourself, and when a mugger comes for you, you drop it and run, much like monocrom's money clip suggestion.


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## kimjune01

kimjune01 said:


> but let's not go there


you might not have understood that clearly. Anyhow, there are good (well-studied and well-practiced) self-defense methods to counter inexperienced knife-attackers(Be aware that I don't fantasize about the 27 ninjas) or fend them off until i have time to get away. Aikido, for example.
I choose to think that an overwhelming majority of muggers do not kill for a single score of a few thousand dollars.
Having said that, I really do appreciate your lengthy yet wordy input onto this subject - especially for a newb like me. I will look more into those flashlights that you've mentioned earlier. Thanks again.


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## Monocrom

kimjune01 said:


> you might not have understood that clearly. Anyhow, there are good (well-studied and well-practiced) self-defense methods to counter inexperienced knife-attackers(Be aware that I don't fantasize about the 27 ninjas) or fend them off until i have time to get away. Aikido, for example.
> I choose to think that an overwhelming majority of muggers do not kill for a single score of a few thousand dollars.
> Having said that, I really do appreciate your lengthy yet wordy input onto this subject - especially for a newb like me. I will look more into those flashlights that you've mentioned earlier. Thanks again.


 
I have studied traditional martial arts, and I have studied R.B.S.D.

I know what you mean about the 27 ninjas scenario. Thing is, my knowledge of knife combatives is far beyond what I've studied in traditional martial arts and even R.B.S.D.

I specialize in knife combatives. And I'm fully aware of those so-called well-studied, well-practiced, and well-known (at least in the martial arts community) counters to a knifer.... Sorry, but this subject is too important for me to pull any punches.... A real knifer isn't going to cooperate with you the way an instructor's student, pretending to be a knifer, will. 

Here are things that a _real _knifer will do:

1 - Hit you with his free hand. Never seen that demonstrated in those well-known counters.

2 - Bend his elbow. It's great to see someone flipped on their back. Funny how it's only done when the student-knifer uses an unrealistic stiff-arm, half-hearted technique. Or in combination with being several feet away, and then lunging forward, while being horribly off balance.... And then freezing for a second or two while the instructor makes himself look good.

That's what I've learned. I saw students who made half-hearted efforts in their knife attacks against their instructors or Masters. (Some of it may have been on a subconscious level, and not intentional). But that's what I saw, and it was far from realistic.

You can think what you want about muggers.... I know of people who were murdered for a dollar. Homeless man attacked a woman on a subway platform. She wouldn't let go of her purse; so he intentionally pushed her in front of an oncoming train. And I never posted anything about a few thousand dollars. I said a couple of hundred dollars.... Your outlook on life is horribly optimistic. 

I'll admit my previous post was lengthy. (Guess this one is too). All I can do is wish you good luck. Honestly, I sincerely believe you're going to need it.


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## kimjune01

Monocrom said:


> Your outlook on life is horribly optimistic.


 thanks!


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## Monocrom

kimjune01 said:


> thanks!


 
You're Welcome.


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## Burgess

to *Monocrom* --


Thank you for your words of wisdom in this thread. :thumbsup:


Straight-talk. Pure and simple.


No sugar-coated, "feel-good" nonsense.



Real advice, for the Real World.

:goodjob:
_


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## JetskiMark

Interesting thread here and some good tips.



270winchester said:


> if you intend on carrying a light for self-defense, i advise you carry a small one, so it won't hurt as much when your attacker shoves it up your a**.



I must admit, that was hilarious.

Maybe I should order a Wee.

Regards,
Mark


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## Monocrom

Burgess said:


> to *Monocrom* --
> 
> 
> Thank you for your words of wisdom in this thread. :thumbsup:
> 
> 
> Straight-talk. Pure and simple.
> 
> 
> No sugar-coated, "feel-good" nonsense.
> 
> 
> 
> Real advice, for the Real World.
> 
> :goodjob:
> _


 
Thanks for the kind words. 

I try not to take myself too seriously. And I sometimes joke around when posting on CPF. But I always take the subject of self-defense very seriously. My training and experience forces me to do that. It's not fun, this topic. But definitely too important to sugar-coat what happens out in the real world. Being a family-friendly forum, I can't go into too many gruesome details. But I hope I got my point across to anyone curious about this subject.


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## Lightraven

One day, I may figure out the origins of the flashlight (beam)-for-self-defense concept. Nobody I know of is teaching to flash a threat.

The problem with violence is that it IS violent. Chances are, if it doesn't hurt, it won't work.

People (and law enforcement agencies) want a weapon that is legal, effective and harmless. Unfortunately, no such weapon exists.

I have talked to dozens of law enforcement coworkers who have been attacked and had to fight--often for their lives. I read weekly reports on fights throughout my agency. Consistently, what has been effective is .40 caliber bullets. Also, the ASP baton against the head and hands, but not legs or torso. Note the possibilities with a C cell Mag lite or Ultrastinger.

Non lethals such as pepper spray, pepperballs, Stingballs, FN-303s, Tasers sometimes work, other times not. If anybody has subdued a threat with a light beam, I haven't heard of it in a dozen years of arresting criminals of various flavors. In fact, I ambushed a suspect in near total darkness with a Surefire M6 with 500 lumen lamp and he took off running like I fired a starting gun. So much for blinding, stunning or disorienting. I didn't even get 2 good seconds! But I eventually found him.


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## TITAN1833

lol this is funny,my advice is to carry a suppository with in built 300 lumen out front.At least that way,if he wrestles the light "thing" from you,what comes next will not be such a harsh surprise!!! when he sticks your A** think safe..Always :devil: instead, I would suggest try carrying physiological weapons i.e think like a attacker"do you look like a "likely" target" and above all be totally intune with what is going on around you 

Be safe and do not carry a 6D maglite is my best advice


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## stitch_paradox

Whoah, monocrom, those are great tips you got there! I actually learned something new the money clip thing. It's sad to see that some underestimate the evil capabilities of a person, and those that did usually ended up dead or hurt. 

I had a personal experience with flash light that changed my view on it as self defense weapon. I go to work at 3 am in a shady part of town. Before this incident I don't carry knife, I occasionally bring pepper spray and a flashlight with me though. While I was about to park my car one time, I saw a figure coming towards my direction in my rear view mirror. I immediately got my flashlight and went out of the car, and shone the light towards the person. It was a female person high on drugs at the time. She stopped on her tracks for a while when I shine the light in her face, she squinted her eyes and kinda looked away but then she continues to approach me blabbering words I don't understand. Now I was using a Surefire 6P with a high output 120 lumen lamp. Supposed to be tactically blinding. She kept on walking towards me and asking for my name and offering sex, so I kept on backing up asking her to stop. (LOL) I noticed though that she kept on looking at the other side of the parking lot, so I shifted my postion so that I can lit up that area and have the lady in my sight at the same time. Then I saw someone hiding in the bush, thats when I really got alerted, what amazed me was this lady was still walking towards me and asking to see my face, she seems to be not affected by the light. She only stopped when my coworker arrived at the parking lot too. Then she ran towards the person on the bush and they left immediately. 

So after my incident this really got me thinking if the lady was an aggressive male criminal with a knife he could still easily have lounged at me and stab me no matter how bright the light I shine on him, sure I can bash his head with the light's bezel and get a circular wound on his head, but thats nothing compared to the bloody faucet he left on my abdomen. If I had been carrying a knife (which I do now) then that would have been a different story. 
Sure it helped me asses the surrounding and delay the perpetrator's plan, but I realized that relying solely on a flashlight to defend your life is a bad idea. 

By the way, some lights that advertise 230+ lumens is not really 230+ lumens. They measure their lumens at the emitter so it's really like 150 lumens out the front. And with first hand experimentation, my eye hurts more woth incan that LED.


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## Lightraven

Hold the phone!

Shining a flashlight at a woman will cause her to approach you offering sex? Now I'm learning something!


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## stitch_paradox

Lightraven said:


> Hold the phone!
> 
> Shining a flashlight at a woman will cause her to approach you offering sex? Now I'm learning something!



LOL having a BIG flashlight does have it's benefits. Kidding aside... yep, even though I'm blasting her with 120+ lumens in her face, she still kept on approaching me and offering.. should I say.. yum yum. Its amazes me on what can people high on glue can do.


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## Burgess

to Stitch_Paradox --


That was a very interesting story, and situation.


Lots of info, and "food for thought", for discussion there.


Thank you for sharing that with us. :thumbsup:



I, too, have seen "high" people who are quite irrational and unpredictable in their behavior.


And that's withOUT an evil accomplice, hiding in the bushes.



_


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## stitch_paradox

People high on drugs and other illegal substances, have very formidable behavior, heck some of them don't even feel pain when high. 

Sex + mugging is quite a common modus operandi among these people. The girl will offer you some "relief", then while your at it in secluded place a guy accomplice will mug you from behind. If I didn't know any better I would have been a victim, the lady was actually pretty cute. Just kidding! 

After this incident I made a little experiment. I asked my brother to walk in the park with the flashlight I used that night, and I will try to "mug" him. Given the fact that my brother already knew he was going to be "attacked" ( same that night, I already saw in the rear view mirror a figure coming towards my vehicle) he was ready and anticipating for me, so the element of surprise is gone. To make the long story short, I found out that: 
1. My eyes are more affected with incans than LED, that is a SFp91 versus a Malkoff M60. 
2. I was quickly blinded by the sudden burst of lumen in my face, but I was also able to quickly adapt my eyes to the bright light. And by focusing my eyesight maybe a couple of feet under the lights source I was able to see the body outline of my brother. I was able to outline his stance, and somewhat I can see what his other hand was doing. 
3. When I lounged and tackled my brother I was able to "stab" my bother atleast twice before he can even wack my head with the light. 
4. The tactical strobe is useless, (its mesmerizing though when you stare at it for some time) I didn't get dizzy, I didn't get confused, but I did get agitated. Before you can even get to the strobe mode the attacker could have just attacked you already. It took as some retake before my brother got the strobe mode right, now in a real life situation you cannot have a retake. It did get the attention of some guys playing basketball some yards away.


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## Monocrom

TITAN1833 said:


> lol this is funny,my advice is to carry a suppository with in built 300 lumen out front.At least that way,if he wrestles the light "thing" from you,what comes next will not be such a harsh surprise!!! when he sticks your A** think safe..Always :devil: instead, I would suggest try carrying physiological weapons i.e think like a attacker"do you look like a "likely" target" and above all be totally intune with what is going on around you
> 
> Be safe and do not carry a 6D maglite is my best advice


 
Ironically, your joking post highlights too very important Self-defense concepts.

1 - In this world, there are predators; and they're looking for food. Don't act like "food."

2 - Advanced Awareness & Avoidence techniques can cause a mugger or attacker to choose someone more oblivious to victimize.


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## Monocrom

stitch_paradox said:


> .... By the way, some lights that advertise 230+ lumens is not really 230+ lumens. They measure their lumens at the emitter so it's really like 150 lumens out the front. And with first hand experimentation, my eye hurts more woth incan that LED.


 
You are correct. One of the things I like about Surefire is that they measure their lumens out the front. A handful of other companies do that too.

There was a CPFer who had a chance to measure the output of the Fenix T1 on an integrating sphere at his job. The T1, with two CR123 Surefire cells inside of it; measured 225 lumens. 

I'm glad everything worked out for you. I'm assuming you got some training before carrying the knife for self-defense. For that purpose, I favor any knife with Emerson's Wave feature. With a bit of practice, the Wave becomes very reliable. I like that the knife doesn't have to be re-positioned once it comes out, in order to get a proper grip on the knife.


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## morelightnow

you posted in the wrong place.





Monocrom said:


> Tell me you did not just post that!!
> 
> 
> 
> Oh for God's sake.... Listen, if you end up remembering only one thing from my posts several years down the road, let it be the following; _You have way the Hell the wrong mindset! _
> 
> I'm not talking about your religion, I mean your mindset. One of the best ways to tell if a self-defense instructor is "for real" or just a con-man is to listen to what he says. If he only tells you $#^% you want to hear, don't waste your money taking his classes. If he tells you he's going to show you how to defend yourself without hurting your attacker, then he's a f**king con-man! Effectively defending yourself against an attacker, without hurting him.... That's like two gay men trying get each other pregnant. Not gonna happen!
> 
> We're talking about someone who is trying to murder you. Do you understand that part? We're talking about someone who doesn't give a damn about you in any way, shape, or form. He doesn't care if you have a family. He doesn't care if you have children. He doesn't care if you're the only one taking care of your elderly mom or dad. He doesn't care that he's about to make your wife a widow. He doesn't care that your children will never see daddy again.
> 
> All he cares about is perhaps that nice watch that you're wearing on your wrist. And while it's unlikely that an attacker will have a gun, in Canada, I'm willing to bet there are no restrictions on buying large kitchen cutlery up where you live. Hell, even a small steak knife will do the job. All you need is two pieces of cardboard and some tape for an improvised sheath. And if you're a bit too slow in handing over your nice watch, your attacker will have no problem at all in stabbing you and taking it off your wrist. That's reality! That's what your life is worth to him.
> 
> Here's another scenario, you hand over your wallet with your credit cards in it, and he _still _kills you! Why? If he leaves you alive, first thing you'll do is cancel those cards. If you're dead, he can sell your credit cards for about $200 more on the Blackmarket because it will take several hours before anyone realizes that your cards are being used by someone other than you. That's what your Life is worth to an attacker.... an extra $200.
> 
> Yes, sometimes you're just dealing with a mugger. _Sometimes_, all they want is your money. But if they pull any sort of weapon on you, you still have no clue if they'll use it. Sometimes you have to trust your gut. If it's only about money, give it to him. A good idea is to carry your money in a cheap moneyclip. You get mugged, pull out the clip, tell him that's all the money you have, then toss the clip in one direction while you run screaming like a lunatic in the other. Now; if you're a mugger, what would you do? Go after the screaming lunatic who has no money on him? Or walk over to the nice, quiet, moneyclip that's just laying a few feet away, waiting to be picked up.
> 
> The good thing is, you're not a woman. So, you don't have to worry about getting raped. But what if you're out with your wife or girlfriend, or having lunch with your daughter or mom. And two or three attackers come along.... and they're _less _interested in you.... You really going to care whether or not you hurt them?
> 
> Least expensive light that's capable of putting out about 200 lumens out the front is a Fenix T1. The clip is less than great, but it's functional and allows instant access to the light. Surefire will soon be coming out with their new and improved U2 models. The Optimus can produce 200 lumens on high, the Invictus does 400 lumens on high. I will be purchasing an Invictus soon after it comes out.
> 
> But like I said earlier, using your light to actually strike an attacker is going to be far more useful than how many lumens it puts out. Based on that, the A2 is a very good choice. It's long enough, the clip allows instant access to the light without fumbling with a holster or trying to dig the light out of the bottom of a pocket.
> 
> Don't misinterpret my post. I'm not saying you're stupid. I _am_ saying that your mindset of not hurting an attacker who's trying to murder you, that's stupid. But that can be changed.


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## Monocrom

Actually, I didn't.


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## stitch_paradox

morelightnow said:


> you posted in the wrong place.



Why may I ask?


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## morelightnow

because this thread is titled "flashlights for self-defense", not "self-defense". his post ruined the entire thread for me. i'm glad it helped some but in my opinion is belongs elsewhere. i'm not contributing either so no more comments


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## cqbdude

Monocrom said:


> Ironically, your joking post highlights too very important Self-defense concepts.
> 
> 1 - In this world, there are predators; and they're looking for food. Don't act like "food."
> 
> 2 - Advanced Awareness & Avoidence techniques can cause a mugger or attacker to choose someone more oblivious to victimize.


 

Being a Mugger....I would have to agree with Monocrom...:nana:

But all kidding aside....the 2 points above will save your life....Awareness alone will get you out of harms way more often than you think..


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## 270winchester

Monocrom said:


> I
> 2 - Advanced Awareness & Avoidence techniques can cause a mugger or attacker to choose someone more oblivious to victimize.




great. as long as you are not the victim, who cares, let the next guy/woman be victimized. That's some fantastic outlook in humanity you have there.
:thumbsdow

remind me to never live next to you as a neighbor.


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## Timdog68

270winchester said:


> great. as long as you are not the victim, who cares, let the next guy/woman be victimized. That's some fantastic outlook in humanity you have there.
> :thumbsdow
> 
> remind me to never live next to you as a neighbor.


 
Are you serious?
Are you saying he should *NOT* try to deter an attack on himself so someone else who is oblivious to his/her surroundings doesnt get attacked instead?
When did he say he wouldnt care if someone else was attacked?
He's trying to give great advice to anyone who will read and make as many people NOT become victims.
And quite frankly his posts may save someones life who thinks a flashlight
is more than a light.


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## Monocrom

morelightnow said:


> because this thread is titled "flashlights for self-defense", not "self-defense". his post ruined the entire thread for me. i'm glad it helped some but in my opinion is belongs elsewhere. i'm not contributing either so no more comments


 
Well, what can I say? Perhaps I should apologize for shattering any fantasies you might have about what it's really like out there. But why listen to someone with training and experience under his belt? Why listen to someone who spends his free time studying something that most people do their best not to think about? 

Good news though, there are more than enough con-men in this business who will gladly tell you all the things you want to hear, and they'll let you pay them for that privilage. 

I kinda suck at lying to folks, but let me give it a try....

"Any light that puts out at least 60 lumens will cause a violent attacker to run home, crying to his mommy."

"A deranged drug addict who hasn't had his fix can still be reasoned with. After all, it's not as though his addiction is more important to him than anything else in Life."

"Unicorns are real. If you get some Chex party-mix and go to Central Park at Midnight on the third Thursday of every month, you can feed them out of your hand!"

Okay, how am I doing? Hmm.... I think my lying needs some work.

If a dose of reality is something too strong for you to handle, if it genuinely bothers you; there's an easy solution.... Just put me on your Ignore List. That way, my blatantly honest posts will never trouble you again. No more ruined threads! You can go back to pretending that all individuals are basically good people, and that the world is filled with Hugs & Gumdrops.


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## 270winchester

Timdog68 said:


> Are you serious?
> Are you saying he should *NOT* try to deter an attack on himself so someone else who is oblivious to his/her surroundings doesnt get attacked instead?
> When did he say he wouldnt care if someone else was attacked?
> He's trying to give great advice to anyone who will read and make as many people NOT become victims.
> And quite frankly his posts may save someones life who thinks a flashlight
> is more than a light.



well, what you are saying is redirecting harm to others, which is a pretty tough thing to live with morally speaking. I guess you have no problem doing it, well, that's who you are. We need to look at our conscience and decide whether we rather rid of the society of evil or merely evading it and hope someone else receives the attack. And seems like the majority of people today are all too happy to not be one of the victims, and feel somehow more "smart" that they didn't get victimized, this time.

the point is, perps will harm someone if the society continues to makes and enforce laws that discourage people from defending themselves. If not you, they may choose to rob and beat an old lady who have even less means of self-preservation. Well, you don't see it so it obviously won't matter to you.

The whole mentality of "I will blend in so someone else gets it" sounds pretty terrible to me. It just encourages the criminals to find weaker and more vulnerable targets to attack.

I think Prime Minister Chamberlain of England was one in that camp.


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## Monocrom

270winchester said:


> great. as long as you are not the victim, who cares, let the next guy/woman be victimized. That's some fantastic outlook in humanity you have there.
> :thumbsdow
> 
> remind me to never live next to you as a neighbor.


 
Not the first time you've horribly misinterpreted one of my posts. (Likely, not going to be the last). 

Timdog68 made all of the main points. Simply put, everyone is responsible for their own safety. The exception to that rule being children. (Their parents are morally and legally responsible for their safety).

If someone chooses to go through Life with blinders on, how is that my fault? Would you blame your next door neighbor if your house got robbed? Would you get upset at him because he got himself a Home Security system, and you decided not to? 

Burglars case the neighborhood, decide to rob your place because you don't have a Home Security system.... unlike your neighbor.

Gee, I guess your neighbor is the @$$. How dare he take steps to protect himself and his family, when others in the neighborhood decided not to be so "paranoid."

BTW, if you had me as a neighbor, you'd be fortunate. I look out for my friends and neighbors. If I genuinely didn't care about people, you think I would have bothered giving the pragmatic advice that I did in this thread? 

Thankfully, other CPFers got what I was saying. But if my blatant honesty is causing you to become offended, well; like I told the other guy, I won't lose any sleep if you put me on your Ignore List.


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## stitch_paradox

morelightnow said:


> because this thread is titled "flashlights for self-defense", not "self-defense". his post ruined the entire thread for me. i'm glad it helped some but in my opinion is belongs elsewhere. i'm not contributing either so no more comments



Still has the "sef defense" words on both of them, and that was the key of this thread. Where just giving our advice on the proper thinking of self defense. His post might have ruined it for you, but not for the majority of us. I actually find it helpful. Your post ruined this whole thread for me too, but does that give me the right to tell you where to put your posts? Like one of the moderator have said. don't play mod.


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## 270winchester

that's a very different tone then what the first post I quoted you conveyed.

I don't need ignore lists, I simply wanted to respond to what you initially said. it's the part about "let the next chump suffer" that gets me.



Monocrom said:


> Not the first time you've horribly misinterpreted one of my posts. (Likely, not going to be the last).
> 
> Timdog68 made all of the main points. Simply put, everyone is responsible for their own safety. The exception to that rule being children. (Their parents are morally and legally responsible for their safety).
> 
> If someone chooses to go through Life with blinders on, how is that my fault? Would you blame your next door neighbor if your house got robbed? Would you get upset at him because he got himself a Home Security system, and you decided not to?
> 
> Burglars case the neighborhood, decide to rob your place because you don't have a Home Security system.... unlike your neighbor.
> 
> Gee, I guess your neighbor is the @$$. How dare he take steps to protect himself and his family, when others in the neighborhood decided not to be so "paranoid."
> 
> BTW, if you had me as a neighbor, you'd be fortunate. I look out for my friends and neighbors. If I genuinely didn't care about people, you think I would have bothered giving the pragmatic advice that I did in this thread?
> 
> Thankfully, other CPFers got what I was saying. But if my blatant honesty is causing you to become offended, well; like I told the other guy, I won't lose any sleep if you put me on your Ignore List.


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## gilly

Wise words, brother Monocrom. To borrow the words of a smart man, there are three types in our society: sheep, sheepdogs and wolves. We sheepdogs know the danger that the wolves pose and try to remain prepared to deal with them. (and make a living out of protecting the sheep from the wolves) Unfortunately the sheep live their lives in fantasy and denial, thinking things are safe and good. We know better.

And...to get back to the OP, I agree that a light is not enough for self-defense. A good bright light can, however, make a difference. Recently, we were conducting SWAT training inside an old KMart building (very large, open space - pillars, but no aisles, shelving, etc.) I brought my Raidfire Spear with me to see if it might come in handy. After detecting movement with my incan light on my M-4, I blasted a perp (role player) hiding behind a pillar, with the Spear from a distance of about 100 feet. I was able to distract him with voice commands and the intense beam of the Spear while two other team members of mine made an approach on him from his flank and 'took him down'. He didn't see them coming and was very impressed with the Spear. All of my buddies on the team were very interested in seeing, trying and finding out about the Spear. Among 20 SWAT guys and their variety of lights, the Spear was by far the most powerful light there. A good 'thrower' definitely has its place in Law Enforcement!

Many guys have asked me to recommend a tough, BRIGHT LED light. They are not willing to shell out the $$ for a Surefire. I ask "what are you willing to spend?" and most guys respond, "75 bucks or so". So.....I have recommended the Fenix TK10. One of my closest buds was carrying an old 1 Watt Pelican LED! He was DISGUSTED at how dim it was compared to my Spear and the other light in my SWAT vest, an old 6P spiced up with a Wolf Eyes Q5 drop-in from PTS.:thumbsup:


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## Monocrom

270winchester said:


> that's a very different tone then what the first post I quoted you conveyed.
> 
> I don't need ignore lists, I simply wanted to respond to what you initially said. it's the part about "let the next chump suffer" that gets me.


 
Tone is something that's very difficult to convey over an internet forum. The unfortunate thing here is that you concentrated on one sentence, rather than the totality of all of the posts I've previously made in this thread. I genuinely believe that's where the misinterpretation came from.


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## Monocrom

gilly said:


> Wise words, brother Monocrom. To borrow the words of a smart man, there are three types in our society: sheep, sheepdogs and wolves. We sheepdogs know the danger that the wolves pose and try to remain prepared to deal with them. (and make a living out of protecting the sheep from the wolves) Unfortunately the sheep live their lives in fantasy and denial, thinking things are safe and good. We know better....
> 
> .... Many guys have asked me to recommend a tough, BRIGHT LED light. They are not willing to shell out the $$ for a Surefire. I ask "what are you willing to spend?" and most guys respond, "75 bucks or so". So.....I have recommended the Fenix TK10. One of my closest buds was carrying an old 1 Watt Pelican LED! He was DISGUSTED at how dim it was compared to my Spear and the other light in my SWAT vest, an old 6P spiced up with a Wolf Eyes Q5 drop-in from PTS.:thumbsup:


 
Another great way of looking at how things are. Thanks.

BTW, I was thinking of getting a Surefire P61L for my SF C2. But how well does the Wolf-Eyes Q5 drop-in work in your 6P. I might get that, instead. I have heard a few CPFers having problems getting the W.E. drop-in to seat properly inside their Surefire lights. Did you experience any issues with that?


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## gilly

The fit did not seem 'ideal', but it works OK. Not sure I'd want to submerge it. The W.E. drop in came with a spacer ring for Surefires. I thought the diameter of the W.E. reflector would be wider also. I really wanted to get a Malkoff, but alas, they are very rarely in stock and I became impatient. 

Hope this info helps. I am, admittedly, still quite a novice at modding anything!


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## Monocrom

It actually helped quite a bit. Thank You for the reply.


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## DocArnie

Just out of curiosity, has anyone tried out how a good flashgun works for gaining an advantage to escape?


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## Timdog68

270winchester said:


> well, what you are saying is redirecting harm to others, which is a pretty tough thing to live with morally speaking. I guess you have no problem doing it, well, that's who you are. We need to look at our conscience and decide whether we rather rid of the society of evil or merely evading it and hope someone else receives the attack. And seems like the majority of people today are all too happy to not be one of the victims, and feel somehow more "smart" that they didn't get victimized, this time.
> 
> the point is, perps will harm someone if the society continues to makes and enforce laws that discourage people from defending themselves. If not you, they may choose to rob and beat an old lady who have even less means of self-preservation. Well, you don't see it so it obviously won't matter to you.
> 
> The whole mentality of "I will blend in so someone else gets it" sounds pretty terrible to me. It just encourages the criminals to find weaker and more vulnerable targets to attack.
> 
> I think Prime Minister Chamberlain of England was one in that camp.


 
Well thanks for labeling me based on not wanting to be a victim.
I have fought and recently lost to have a 3 strikes law enacted in my state.
I have also fought and won(fingers crossed) to have ammo and firearm microstamping bills squashed that would have stopped the sale of firearms and reloading in my state.
Your assumptions about me couldnt be any more wrong but hey I don't want to ruin your profiling based on two paragraphs.
Good luck and God Bless!


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## DocArnie

Tried out blinding myself with a big flashgun in the mirror at night. Doesn't work as a weapon. It blinds you only for a split-second, but then you could still whoop someone's butt.


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## LiterLeaner

stitch_paradox said:


> 4. The tactical strobe is useless, (its mesmerizing though when you stare at it for some time)


 

I am new here and I am sorry for bringing an older thread back to life but I feel the need to enlighten a few misinformed individuals. (sorry for the use of that word but I thought it fit):candle:

I have been on the streets for a little over 3 years now. My first encounter with the "strobe" effect was when I ordered a G&P 5watt copy of the trusty 6P. Since I ordered that light I have upgraded many times and my best addition to that type of light was a Gladius. I have entrusted that workhorse more times than I care to count to allow a split second more time than I had otherwise. I was always in a position in where I could anticipate the attack and switch over to strobe mode. When deployed I was able to get that needed advantage over my attacker. 

A strobe will not confuse, daze or bewilder an attacker but I have used it many times to allow a "wtf" moment so that I may gain the advantage. Most people are not expecting it and *just like* *EVERY other tool out there - TRAIN TRAIN TRAIN so that you will effectively use your tool as designed when the time comes.*

This article has provided a much needed "wake-up" call to the silly claims that companies are promoting. I can't wait to find a static bad guy that allows me to use my training as presented in the paper manuals. Until that time comes, be safe and what a great website indeed.

I will still be a flashlightaholic but you have to know where the bs meets the reality.


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## TITAN1833

Actually! any thing used for self-defense,could be taken off you rendering it useless..a flashlight comes top as it can be seen from the light it is emiting..I carry a koppo stick in conjunction with a flashlight..thus if something happens the antagonist will follow the light he can see,not the koppo stick "BANG".
BTW this duo may give me "only"seconds to flee leaving the antagonist wanting.


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## fallvitals

Um, no experiance with flashlights in self defense. But... if you are truely interested in self defense. Get a Permit to Carry a Concealed Weapon. And take some good instructional classes. But remember a gun is something you can just draw, wave around, or shoot someone unless its a last resort thing.. 

I never enter the woods any more without my .45acp on me. I should be more concerned with carrying in public, but I havent started that practice yet :candle:


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## LuxLuthor

Carry a 100W torch. If they aren't really blinded, when they get close you can burn their shirt & fry their arse.


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## hangn_9

Seems to me that the light would be the best defense. isnt the best defence a good offence? and although addressed a little I would think identifing a dangerous situation and being able establish an escape route. Making use of your light to not trip or poke your eye out while escaping out is invaluable. I'm guessing most muggers wont have personal lighting. leave the subdue portion to people with training or professionals. 

Really if someone suprises you, well they have the upper hand anyway wether you have a gun, knife, or flashlight. 

I work for the railroad and safety safety safety. The biggest component to being safe is situational awarness and I think that applies anywhere. a good light gives you a lot of advantages before there is a problem. 

Military, Police they are supposed to confront the situation(most of them would wait for backup when possible. You dont and frankly, without the proper training and tools it would be a fools game to mess around. And hey if you must stand and fight commit to it and #@$ them up.

hangn9 

My question anyone know how effective high lummins are on animals?


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## greenLED

hangn_9 said:


> My question anyone know how effective high lummins are on animals?


You'll get varying answers; I suspect it depends on the animal and the circumstances.

I've personally stopped (twice) a charging dog, dead in its tracks (dogs went from attack mode to frozen in place in an instant; interesting response) as soon as I hit him in the eyes with my light (once with a SF L1, once with a PD-S).

Another dog didn't stop like that. It stopped barking, but didn't have the "freeze" reaction the other 2 dogs did. 

In either case, it gave me enough time to put some distance between them and myself - always a good thing.


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## TITAN1833

Be careful shinning high lumen's at small animals,could induce a seizure


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## greenLED

TITAN1833 said:


> Be careful shinning high lumen's at small animals,could induce a seizure


Small dogs I don't mind at all no matter how much they bark. These were rather large dogs and I wasn't about to let them get too close.


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## kuprith

another good idea for flashlight self defense are those 100 mw - 200 mw laser diodes incorporated into the flashlight casing.


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## Jamesmark72

A bright light sure would magnify the effect of being sprayed though, if you happen to get one of the few that it takes awhile to shut their eyes.


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## DaveN007

How bright would a light have to be to cause temporary blindness? I mean potentially eye-damaging levels of brightness. 

I am talking about hands on your face screaming in agony bright.

Welding arc bright. I want a AAA light that can do this. 

Once blinded, i challenge any ninja-mugger to shove my light up my


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## DM51

DaveN007 said:


> How bright would a light have to be to cause temporary blindness? I mean potentially eye-damaging levels of brightness.
> 
> I am talking about hands on your face screaming in agony bright.
> 
> Welding arc bright. I want a AAA light that can do this.
> 
> Once blinded, i challenge any ninja-mugger to shove my light up my...


This is an old thread, and you have revived it with an inappropriate post. You are advised that juvenile questions and discussions about how to blind or otherwise injure people will not survive here. 

Thread closed.


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