# The Ultimate Pocket Knife



## L3 (Jul 18, 2004)

Some here already know it. And, some do not.

*There simply is just one choice in production pocket knives.* The brand is *BENCHMADE*. They have styles and sizes to suit all tastes. What do I recommend? The Benchmade Model *520 Presidio Pardue*. See it under the 'Black Class'.

For those new to the brand, you can quickly get up to speed on all the ins and outs of Benchmade knives at Benchmade Forum. Here you will learn about superior design, advanced engineering, and first rate metallurgical quality.

What is positively *the best folding knife locking system available today?* The Benchmade *AXIS*(tm) lock. Better can't be found.

Go to these places only if the *finest in production knives* is of importance to you. You'll leave the other brands behind. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

L3


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## Frangible (Jul 18, 2004)

Benchmade is ok. They are slow to innovate though, and don't have any assisted openers currently available. They also are sort of lethargic on new blade steels, with only a scattered few models using modern S30V type steels.

There are many choices in knives, of which Benchmade is but one. They make ok knives, at an ok price, but they aren't exactly "cutting edge".

The unique advantage to benchmade knives is the axis lock, which is a little better than a liner lock. Some might call it gimmicky and easier to break, though, but I like it.

The Model 520 sucks imo. The handle isn't G10 and the steel is 154CM. Any handle that is not G10 scales, sucks. And any steel that is not S30V/S60V doesn't hold an edge very well.

By contrast, my Ken Onion Avalanche, a Kershaw knife, is nearly identical in design to the early mini-AFCKs. It has a steel that holds an edge 3x better in testing than any Benchmade (S60V), an advanced assisted opening feature Benchmade still hasn't gotten around to using, and a very nice G10 scale grip handle. All for $90, typically less than Benchmade.

So no, not just one choice, although I do like Benchmades. A knife should be judged on its own merits, and most of Benchmade's line is sort of outdated with the prevalence of modern steels and other features out there.

If you want a well-made, somewhat expensive knife that uses "so 5 years ago" materials and design, Benchmade may be the way to go. But I think they've lost a lot of design talent lately and it shows. Hell, they're even starting to outsource production to Taiwan. Weak.

I'm really not trying to completely slam BM here, I've owned several of them and will continue to buy Benchmade. They have good support and are high-quality knives. I'm just disappointed by their lethargy in using modern steels and assited opening. A wave opener similar to Emerson's knives would be nice too.


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## L3 (Jul 18, 2004)

Frangible,

While I don't agree with all of your comments, you do make one or two valid points. Benchmade does need some managerial re-adjustment. They are a company way above average but seem, at times, to be resting on their laurels.

There is no question that S30V and S60V are exceptional steels. You would think they would become the standard for a firm such as BM. As for locks,* the AXIS is infinitely superior to the liner lock*. Liner locks tend to be unstable and unreliable, benefiting mostly the manufacturer.

For all-around excellence, Benchmade knives are the leader to my way of thinking. Opinions, of course, will vary, and that is as it should be.

Thanks for your comments. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

L3


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## Frangible (Jul 18, 2004)

No prob, I enjoy discussing knives. Definately the best tool ever invented by man. Actually I also have a new BM 806D2 on the way, can't wait /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

What I don't like most about knives is patents. A lot of unique features are patented, meaning you'll never see a "perfect" knife with all of them /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif So you have to prioritize, and determine what features from what manufacturer are most important to you.


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## ErickThakrar (Jul 18, 2004)

Look at the 630 Skirmish and say that again. 
The axis lock is also significantly better than any liner lock. Far less likely to fail and the two springs offer a nearly failure-proof system. You would have to have both springs fail and that's simply not very likely. The lock is also self-adjusting to a large extent. I've had my BM 710 for 5 years, carried it practically everyday, flicked it open more times than I care to count and it still locks up as well as it did the first day. I've NEVER had the lock fail on me. I wish I could say the same for the liner locks that I own. 
It has G10 scales, an ATS34 blade (yeah, it's that old.) which has held up admirably and well-made pocket clip. 
Old materials, hmm perhaps. Poor materials? No. Not even close. 
154CM, ATS34, and even 440C are generally better steels than the AUS8 and AUS6 that is used in the vast majority of Kershaw designs. 
Assisted openers are HIGHLY overrated. More gimmick factor and it introduces yet another possible failure part into a locking system that is already failure-prone. 
They're fun toys, but I would never rely on one as an EDC. 
Great for knifesturbation but that's about it. 
I am far more impressed with Kershaw's new frame lock offerings like the Bump. Now that's a knife I wouldn't mind owning. 
Kershaw makes some good stuff, but to hold them up as a shining example of righteousness over Benchmade is poor judgement. 
Besides, I think you're vastly underestimating Benchmade's designers. Neil Blackwood, Mike Snody, Mel Pardue, McHenry and Williams are all names that have in the past, and will in the future, come up with some amazing designs. I'm sure I'm even forgetting some names. So where you're getting the idea that they've lost a lot of design talent lately, I have no idea. 

I'm not a Benchmade junkie or groupie. But I do believe that their preferred locking system is one of the best things ever to befall a folder. I have long since stopped EDC'ing liner locks, simply cause I don't trust them anymore. 
My other EDC is a CRKT Grant Hawk DOG. AUS8 steel, which is an ok steel, but not great and a rock-solid locking system. It also has excellent ergonomics. 
The locking system was the determining factor in my purchase. 
It doesn't have to be S30V or S60V to hold a good edge. That's ridiculous. D2, 154CM, VG-10 and others are all very capable steels but without the gee-whizz factor of the CPM steels. Even AUS8 and 6 are capable and decent for utility since they're very easy to resharpen. Much easier than for instance the CPM steels you're so fond of. 

Both companies have their pluses and minuses. Calling Benchmade weak, and comparing with Kershaw, that's not even remotely based in reality.
Although I wouldn't say I agree with L3 either. There is most definitely more than one choice in knife manufacturers.


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## KC2IXE (Jul 18, 2004)

Bah,
For a production knife? Sebenza


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## L3 (Jul 18, 2004)

Good input, Erick. You show good sense joined with a touch of class!

L3


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## fuelblender (Jul 18, 2004)

I know I'll probably get laughed at and scoffed at for suggesting this, but how about a CASE knife? I use a knife for cutting things and see no need for a locking blade. As far as I know the only need for a locking blade is to keep the blade from closing suddenly as if you were to puncture something. It seems to me that the speciality knives/tactical knives are super expensive. I'd be afraid to EDC one for fear of losing it or having it stolen.


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## ErickThakrar (Jul 18, 2004)

Slipjoints are ok, but I would NEVER feel comfortable EDC'ing one and frankly you can get a decent knife with a good lock for about 50 bucks.
Look for the Benchmade Mini-griptilian for instance. About 50-60 bucks, 440C blade, comfortable handle and the Axis Lock. For a small, relatively cheap knife it's hard to beat. There are other knives in similar price points, but I think the features in the Mini-Grip are better than most other knives in that range. They also come with pocket clips so they stay clipped to your pocket, unlike a CASE that just sorta floats around in your pockets.

Also, the blade can close on you suddenly not just while puncturing something, but even while cutting. All it takes is moving your hand in the wrong direction for a second and suddenly you're bleeding. Not worth the risk in my opinion.


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## fuelblender (Jul 18, 2004)

[ QUOTE ]
*ErickThakrar said:*
Slipjoints are ok, but I would NEVER feel comfortable EDC'ing one and frankly you can get a decent knife with a good lock for about 50 bucks.
Look for the Benchmade Mini-griptilian for instance. About 50-60 bucks, 440C blade, comfortable handle and the Axis Lock. For a small, relatively cheap knife it's hard to beat. There are other knives in similar price points, but I think the features in the Mini-Grip are better than most other knives in that range. They also come with pocket clips so they stay clipped to your pocket, unlike a CASE that just sorta floats around in your pockets.

Also, the blade can close on you suddenly not just while puncturing something, but even while cutting. All it takes is moving your hand in the wrong direction for a second and suddenly you're bleeding. Not worth the risk in my opinion. 

[/ QUOTE ]ErickThakrar, thanks for the advice and pointing out the hazards of a slipjoint (new term for me) style knife. I'm going to check out that Benchmade Mini-griptilian! Thanks a lot,

Dave


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## L3 (Jul 18, 2004)

I must confess... There are one or two _other knife brands_ which, while lower in level than Benchmade, are worthy of some consideration. One brand that has some interesting and good quality offerings is SOG Specialty Knives. Some of their knives have a neat little lock called the Arc Lock. It is a good, strong, and secure design. Their Flash I and II models feature assisted opening, for those with this inclination. Some of their blades are coated with the excellent material boron carbide.

Knives share some attributes of flashlights. Expensive, high quality knives bring *special joy to the heart* and tend to exhibit better materials, design, and workmanship. For those who enjoy these qualities, *a good knife is a great investment*. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Enjoy life, for it is a one way trip.

L3


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## John N (Jul 18, 2004)

"Ultimate"? Hmm. How about "very good"? I'll keep my Chris Reeve Sebenza over any of the Benchmade knives. For the price I think Benchmade makes very decent knives, but I wouldn't call them the ultimate.

Now I just need a Scott Cook Lochsa, but it isn't a production knife.

-john


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## Frangible (Jul 18, 2004)

Erick:

I said "weak" in reference to outsourcing, not BM in general.

Next, you dismiss the advantages of modern steels. Fact: S30V has been proven to hold an edge 3x better than ATS-34. It's not just a little better, it's three times better.

I also find your comments on the assisted opening humorous. Especially given the fact assisted opening is no more or less of a gimmick than the AXIS lock vs. a liner lock. The AXIS lock has a little more cool factor but the two springs make it less reliable than a liner lock. The same applies to assisted opening and its tortion bar. You are trading reliability for parts that will inevitably fail and more convience-- be it faster opening, or a little easier to use closing mechanism.

Anyway, I like both assisted opening and the AXIS lock. I think both, while they aren't huge technological breakthroughs, are nice little features to have.

Finally, yes, I'm sorry but the Kershaw Avalanche is better than the Benchmade mini-AFCK. I own both. The Kershaw has a significantly better steel, a much better G10 scaling, and assisted opening is just nicer than the thumbhole system. Go to your local knife store and use both if you don't believe me.

Benchmade makes good stuff, but they need to get with the times and start modernizing their designs. Their old designs aren't crap, they're just old. The new "miracle" steels really are that good in a knife blade and represent a large step forward in holding an edge better. Materials, design, and technology are moving forward, and Benchmade is standing still. Let's hope they adapt faster than Maglite.


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## Taniwha (Jul 18, 2004)

[ QUOTE ]
*Frangible said:*Next, you dismiss the advantages of modern steels. Fact: S30V has been proven to hold an edge 3x better than ATS-34. It's not just a little better, it's three times better.

[/ QUOTE ]
What has been "proven" (and by the way, whats your source for this "proof"?) and what really happens in the field are often very different. I've used knives all my life, and ATS-34, 154-CM etc. have seen plenty of use from me, both in other knives and in knives I've made... I use a couple S30V blades as my EDC's, not because of the steel but because they are the designs I wanted, and while its good stuff, I wont disagree, I dont think it is three times better than ATS/154, better yes, but how much better? Not enough that I think it makes a difference as long as the design of the knife itself is sound, and its well made and heat-treated.
Being a steel snob was never my thing, I know good steel from bad, I know how to sharpen, I know how to treat a blade well, and I know what designs and shapes work best for what I want to do... all that evens it out, super steel or not.



[ QUOTE ]
... and assisted opening is just nicer than the thumbhole system. 

[/ QUOTE ]
Until that one night you need it desperately, and your thumb shoots off the G-10 and right over or past that tiny little thumb-stud on the Avalanche, because A. its small and B. its barely taller than the G-10, which isnt re-cessed with a thumb guide for it, and instead of a knife all you have is a rather light-weight fistload.
Gimmie the hole anyday, I can open it just as fast and its a more reliable opener to find and stay on under stress. And I have owned both knives in question, and carried thumb-hole and assisted openers.
For utility, for knifesturbation, for looking cool, assisteds are great... need one for more serious things, and they are, frankly, lacking and do not meet the standards of combative/life saving reliability. There are better ways.


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## ErickThakrar (Jul 18, 2004)

Ok, I'm gonna say this as nicely as I can. You're smoking crack on the Axis Lock Vs. Liner Lock issue. The lockup with an Axis Lock is inherently stronger than a Liner Lock can ever be. Period. And only one spring is required to exert enough force on the locking bar to provide a secure lockup. Which means in order for the lock to fail, BOTH springs would have to break. That's simply not very likely. Where is a similar redundancy in the design of the Liner Lock?
Simple. It isn't there. The Liner Lock relies on friction to keep the locking bar in place. All it has to do to fail is slide off or as it has happened on some folders, the liner buckles.

In order for the Axis Lock to fail, one or more things would have to happen. 
Both springs would have to fail. Or the locking bar would have to be sheared through. 
Neither event is terribly likely. 
Calling the Axis Lock a gimmick is just pointless. The assisted opening is a gimmick, the same way automatic knives are gimmicks. Cool for the gadget factor only. They're not quicker to open than just about any other knife. I can open a knife like most any Axis lock knife, just as quickly as most people can locate the thumbstud on their assisted openers or the button on their automatic.
And while I agree that the Avalanche is a fine knife, I would take the stronger Axis Lock over the liner lock anyday. It's a question of mechanics. 
Never owned an AFCK since I didn't like the ergonomics of it. But I own both a 710 and a Mini-grip and a couple of other Benchmades and I've never had a problem with either of the two Axis Locks I own. That's in 5 years of daily carry. I've never had a spring break. It's never gotten fouled with lint or anything else. 
I've had many Liner Locks fail on me. 

As for the steels, I never dismissed that the new "miracle" steels are better. There is no doubt that they are. I was merely dismissing your statement that all other steels are automatically crap. They're not. They've worked well for thousands of users for years and will continue to do so. 
Besides, it's kinda moot anyways, since more and more of the Benchmade's are S30V. Several new models have come out with that. 
And then there's ofcourse their new model, coming out later this year, The Apparition that has an assisted opening system. It's a liner lock. I won't be buying it.


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## cy (Jul 18, 2004)

[ QUOTE ]
*Frangible said:* any steel that is not S30V/S60V doesn't hold an edge very well.

[/ QUOTE ]You oviously have not used a properly heat treated 1095 or D2 blade by a custom maker. 

IMHO the maker controlling the heat treatment is more important than having the latest and greatest steels that happen to in the vogue at the moment. 

I'll stick my neck out further. A D2 blade that's been heat treated (rockwell 59-61) by a master knife maker will out perform most any production knife using new steel of any flavor.


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## Frangible (Jul 18, 2004)

[ QUOTE ]

What has been "proven" (and by the way, whats your source for this "proof"?) and what really happens in the field are often very different.

[/ QUOTE ]

There were tests on this done on bladeforums.com

[ QUOTE ]
I've used knives all my life, and ATS-34, 154-CM etc. have seen plenty of use from me, both in other knives and in knives I've made... I use a couple S30V blades as my EDC's, not because of the steel but because they are the designs I wanted, and while its good stuff, I wont disagree, I dont think it is three times better than ATS/154, better yes, but how much better? Not enough that I think it makes a difference as long as the design of the knife itself is sound, and its well made and heat-treated.
Being a steel snob was never my thing, I know good steel from bad, I know how to sharpen, I know how to treat a blade well, and I know what designs and shapes work best for what I want to do... all that evens it out, super steel or not.

[/ QUOTE ]

Look, ATS-34, or even a solid iron blade is going to get the job done. I've used ATS-34 for the last several years, it's not that it sucks, it's just that the newer steels are better.

I used an Athlon 2100 before buying my P4 3ghz, does that mean the Athlon sucks? No, it just means the P4 is better, and is an upgrade. The same is true for modern steels.

You can still use the Athlon as a computer, and you can still use the ATS-34 blade as a knife, and they'll probably do OK. But the Athlon isn't as fast, and the ATS-34 won't hold an edge as well as the S30Vs. Period.

[ QUOTE ]

Until that one night you need it desperately,

[/ QUOTE ]

You shouldn't be using a 3" pocketknife for self defense. According to the US army a knife must be 6" to be "minimally lethal" because you need a certain amount of penetration to reliably hit blood bearing organs and major veins/arteries. While you can kill someone with a 3" knife, it is a poor choice of a weapon. I'll stick to my Glock handgun /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[ QUOTE ]
and your thumb shoots off the G-10 and right over or past that tiny little thumb-stud on the Avalanche, because A. its small and B. its barely taller than the G-10, which isnt re-cessed with a thumb guide for it, and instead of a knife all you have is a rather light-weight fistload.
Gimmie the hole anyday, I can open it just as fast and its a more reliable opener to find and stay on under stress. And I have owned both knives in question, and carried thumb-hole and assisted openers.

[/ QUOTE ]

Holes suck for that too dude. I won't say the thumbstud is any better or worse than the thumb hole on my AFCK. The best opener is the Emerson disk. You simply can't miss it, which I can't say for the thumb stud or hole.

[ QUOTE ]
For utility, for knifesturbation, for looking cool, assisteds are great... need one for more serious things, and they are, frankly, lacking and do not meet the standards of combative/life saving reliability. There are better ways. 

[/ QUOTE ]

Assisted openers have proven to be reliable, so quite frankly your statement about reliability isn't true, and I challenge you to prove otherwise. They use a simple, reliable and effective mechanism. A high quality auto knife is also quite reliable and those have been around for a long time and proven themselves to be dependable.

[ QUOTE ]
Ok, I'm gonna say this as nicely as I can. You're smoking crack on the Axis Lock Vs. Liner Lock issue. The lockup with an Axis Lock is inherently stronger than a Liner Lock can ever be. Period. And only one spring is required to exert enough force on the locking bar to provide a secure lockup. Which means in order for the lock to fail, BOTH springs would have to break. That's simply not very likely. Where is a similar redundancy in the design of the Liner Lock?
Simple. It isn't there. The Liner Lock relies on friction to keep the locking bar in place. All it has to do to fail is slide off or as it has happened on some folders, the liner buckles.

[/ QUOTE ]

First of all, springs are inherantly weaker and thus more prone to failure than the liner lock. As far as the liner lock being weak... I challenge you to prove how many pounds of force it takes to subvert a liner lock. I don't see it happening, personally.

It's a big friggin piece of steel against the blade. That's pretty reliable, and strong. The AXIS lock is cooler, yes, but it has more moving parts, springs under tension, and more points of failure.

[ QUOTE ]
Calling the Axis Lock a gimmick is just pointless. The assisted opening is a gimmick, the same way automatic knives are gimmicks. Cool for the gadget factor only. They're not quicker to open than just about any other knife. I can open a knife like most any Axis lock knife, just as quickly as most people can locate the thumbstud on their assisted openers or the button on their automatic.

[/ QUOTE ]

The assisted opening is superior to a manual opening system in speed, period, and you can time it and quantify it. It's also a lot easier to open if you do not have the freedom of movement to "flick" the manual knife open. Further, flicking a manual knife open is not reliable as I have noticed the tension on the blade increases over time and I have to loosen it to reliably "flick" it.

Using the thumbstud or hole to open the blade without flicking it takes more force and more time than an assisted opener.

[ QUOTE ]

As for the steels, I never dismissed that the new "miracle" steels are better. There is no doubt that they are. I was merely dismissing your statement that all other steels are automatically crap. They're not. They've worked well for thousands of users for years and will continue to do so. 

[/ QUOTE ]

Crap? No. But they're not as good. Bronze was used as a blade for thousands of years, and worked ok. It doesn't mean I'm going to get a bronze blade in my knife though, now does it? No. If I pay $100+ for a knife, I'm going to get the most up-to-date, functional tool I can.

[ QUOTE ]

Besides, it's kinda moot anyways, since more and more of the Benchmade's are S30V. Several new models have come out with that.
And then there's ofcourse their new model, coming out later this year, The Apparition that has an assisted opening system. It's a liner lock. I won't be buying it. 

[/ QUOTE ]

And it's a good sign they're using more and more new materials, and I hope they expand this.

My dream knife is an 806 AFCK, made by Benchmade, with an assisted opening feature, S60V steel, and the Emerson wave opener and thumb-disk. Yes, the AXIS lock is part of it, because I do like the AXIS lock.

[ QUOTE ]
You oviously have not used a properly heat treated 1095 or D2 blade by a custom maker.

IMHO the maker controlling the heat treatment is more important than having the latest and greatest steels that happen to in the vogue at the moment.

I'll stick my neck out further. A D2 blade that's been heat treated (rockwell 59-61) by a master knife maker will out perform most any production knife using new steel of any flavor. 

[/ QUOTE ]

The forging process and molecular structure is different in the S30V type steels and it is why they hold an edge better regardless of HRC (which is extremely close to Rockwell 59-61 anyway). They do not hold an edge better simply because they are "harder"; they hold an edge better because the structure is different.

BTW, I EDC'd a Benchmade mini-AFCK for ~7 years. Just so you know where I'm coming from. I currently EDC a Kershaw Avalanche, and my roommate EDCs an Emerson mini-Commander. At first I didn't want to even look at the Kershaw, because it wasn't a Benchmade.


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## Joe Talmadge (Jul 18, 2004)

Heh, good stuff. Thought the initial post was troll bait, but the subsequent discussion seems fun enough.

Regarding steels, it's most definitely not a "fact" that S30V holds an edge 3x better than ATS-34. It'll usually hold an edge better, but not always. A brief aside on steel properties: For many uses (I know for my day-to-day-uses) the steel's hardnesses is as important as, or more important than, its wear resistance as far as edge retention goes. I do believe S30V has marginal wear resistance advantage over something like ATS-34, or even D-2, and maybe some wear-resistance-only test showed that. But S30V gets that advantage at the cost of (usually) 2 points on the Rc scale vs ATS-34, or up to 4 points versus D-2. For any application that requires a strong edge -- many people's EDC uses will be classified here -- the stronger edge will have an edge retention advantage. This isn't all hypothetical: witness the number of people who say they can't see a performance difference between VG-10 and S30V (VG-10's hardness makes up somewhat for S30V's toughness and wear resistance advantages), or the number of people who say their BG-42 Sebenzas outperform their S30V Sebenzas (again, BG-42's hardness providing the final edge).

In short, gthe fact that many harder-use Benchmade knives have, or eventually get, an M-2 or D-2 option, really nullifies the lack of S30V blades. Not that I have anything against S30V, I think it's great and would like to see more of it in Benchmade's line. But if I were product manager at Benchmade, given that I was already using two steels that probably give me an edge over S30V or at least compete well with it, I'd enter the S30V wars cautiously as well. S30V is great, but don't fall too hard for the hype.

I, too, think assisted opening is a gimmick, but it's fun, and it for sure sells knives. It's hard for me to think of "they don't have any assisted openers" as a negative, but if you love assisted openers, you'll think differently. I do agree that while Kershaw has come a long way since Ken Onion came on board, they're not even in Benchmade's class.

For me personally, if I look at the qualities and strengths of the entire line-up, I believe there's only one other company that matches Benchmade, and that's Spyderco. 

Joe


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## Taniwha (Jul 18, 2004)

[ QUOTE ]
*Frangible said:*
There were tests on this done on bladeforums.com

[/ QUOTE ]
By who, the legend (in his own mind) Cliff Stamp? Gimmie a link, dont just cite BFC, a lot happens there, link it. 

[ QUOTE ]
You shouldn't be using a 3" pocketknife for self defense. According to the US army a knife must be 6" to be "minimally lethal" because you need a certain amount of penetration to reliably hit blood bearing organs and major veins/arteries.

[/ QUOTE ]
Since when did the US Army become the prime experts on killing other people at close range? Its not their job. Killing at close range, especially with a knife, means that they have failed and something has gone horribly wrong - they are not a reliable source for this sort of information. Remember these are the people teaching Brazillian Jiu Jitsu (and that alone) as hand-to-hand combat... what a gas.
The 6" number is, pure and simple, bullshit. I'm a long-time student of combatives, including blade-work, and can assure you that the 6" thing is crap. Yes, 6" is better, but 3" or 4" will get the job done. Remember, flesh is soft, it compresses, something like a 4 inch blade will get six inches of penetration because flesh compresses under pressure. You dont need to know jack about knife-work to understand this concept.
Remember, box-cutters are one of the most lethal street weapons around, and they surely dont have 6" of blade. 

[ QUOTE ]
Assisted openers have proven to be reliable, so quite frankly your statement about reliability isn't true, and I challenge you to prove otherwise. They use a simple, reliable and effective mechanism. A high quality auto knife is also quite reliable and those have been around for a long time and proven themselves to be dependable.

[/ QUOTE ]
They all gotta be opened once you take it from the pocket, there are blades that dont, and are thus faster and pretty much negate all stud pushing or button diddling... they also dont require their own special set of fine motor skills to be safely opened like an assisted.

Happy smoking.


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## Joe Talmadge (Jul 18, 2004)

[ QUOTE ]
By who, the legend (in his own mind) Cliff Stamp? Gimmie a link, dont just cite BFC, a lot happens there, link it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hey, if it were Cliff, the results would be useful, and probably accurate. Cliff is one of the first people to try to put the brakes on the S30V hype, pointing out the disadvantage of lower hardness. And again, he was right on. S30V is great, but not a final answer for stainless performance -- it's still got a tradeoff.

BTW, thought I'd give my biggest gripe about Benchmade: their lack of imagination on grinds. Benchmade could never come out with something like the Calypso Jr. -- and *that* is a damning statement.

Joe


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## ErickThakrar (Jul 18, 2004)

I'm gonna disregard many of the somewhat nonsensical things you just posted, Frangible. But I am gonna adress this. You say the Axis Lock is more likely to fail because the springs and that they're under tension. 
So how come you think so highly of your assisted openers which also use springs, that are under a MUCH higher level of tension?
And honestly, if you've never even heard of a liner lock failing...Wow...Where have you been? Just do a search on BFC when their search is working again and you should find a gaggle of threads about liner locks failing. Some of them even with the liner crumbling. Others where the liner just slid off the contact surface on the blade. 
It's not at all uncommon.


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## Frangible (Jul 18, 2004)

[ QUOTE ]

In short, gthe fact that many harder-use Benchmade knives have, or eventually get, an M-2 or D-2 option, really nullifies the lack of S30V blades. Not that I have anything against S30V, I think it's great and would like to see more of it in Benchmade's line. But if I were product manager at Benchmade, given that I was already using two steels that probably give me an edge over S30V or at least compete well with it, I'd enter the S30V wars cautiously as well. S30V is great, but don't fall too hard for the hype.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, D2 and M2 are indeed fine steels, but what is distressing to me is the number of (new, even Benchmade knives that do not use S30Vs or anything, as you say, that is comparable to it.

[ QUOTE ]

By who, the legend (in his own mind) Cliff Stamp? Gimmie a link, dont just cite BFC, a lot happens there, link it.


[/ QUOTE ]

I don't recall who the poster was, and it sounds like you might've read it anyway.

[ QUOTE ]
Since when did the US Army become the prime experts on killing other people at close range? Its not their job. Killing at close range, especially with a knife, means that they have failed and something has gone horribly wrong - they are not a reliable source for this sort of information. Remember these are the people teaching Brazillian Jiu Jitsu (and that alone) as hand-to-hand combat... what a gas.
The 6" number is, pure and simple, bullshit. I'm a long-time student of combatives, including blade-work, and can assure you that the 6" thing is crap. Yes, 6" is better, but 3" or 4" will get the job done. Remember, flesh is soft, it compresses, something like a 4 inch blade will get six inches of penetration because flesh compresses under pressure. You dont need to know jack about knife-work to understand this concept.
Remember, box-cutters are one of the most lethal street weapons around, and they surely dont have 6" of blade. 

[/ QUOTE ]

Between the US Army, and some random anonymous guy with 4 posts on an internet messageboard, I'll choose the US Army and goverment studies every time. No offense.

You can read similar studies in wound ballistics for bullets and see what's seen as "minimum" penetration, then come back and tell me again, that 3" is adequate. I doubt you will.

[ QUOTE ]

They all gotta be opened once you take it from the pocket, there are blades that dont, and are thus faster and pretty much negate all stud pushing or button diddling... they also dont require their own special set of fine motor skills to be safely opened like an assisted.


[/ QUOTE ]

That's the beauty of the Emerson wave opener. I just hate the Emerson blade shape and chisel grind.

[ QUOTE ]
Happy smoking. 

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, pass me some of that 3" is adequate penetration crack, because it's better than what I or any doctor studying wound ballistics has got. Never doubt the internet mall ninja? 

[ QUOTE ]

I'm gonna disregard many of the somewhat nonsensical things you just posted, Frangible. But I am gonna adress this. You say the Axis Lock is more likely to fail because the springs and that they're under tension.
So how come you think so highly of your assisted openers which also use springs, that are under a MUCH higher level of tension?
And honestly, if you've never even heard of a liner lock failing...Wow...Where have you been? Just do a search on BFC when their search is working again and you should find a gaggle of threads about liner locks failing. Some of them even with the liner crumbling. Others where the liner just slid off the contact surface on the blade.
It's not at all uncommon. 

[/ QUOTE ]

Hah. THAT is my point. As I've stated numerous times, I like the AXIS lock, more than a liner lock. My point is the AXIS lock uses many of the same basic principles of operation as an assisted opener, so I find it extremely humorous people say either is any more or less gimmicky than the other. And as far as posts regarding failure go, remember that most knives use liner locks, not assisted openers, so thus you're going to see more failures on them. You must look at it as a chance to fail, because all locking mechanisms have them. If that slight chance bothers you, there's always fixed blades /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif


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## ErickThakrar (Jul 18, 2004)

Ok, next time someone stabs you with a 3 inch blade and makes a 6 inch deep wound, come talk to me. If you survive. 
It also doesn't require 3 inches to reach the arteries in the neck nor even to reach the heart. And comparing bullets to knives...Oh come on! You can't be that daft! 
Thousands of people have been killed with knives with blades shorter than 3 inches. Geeze...


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## ErickThakrar (Jul 18, 2004)

Look, bub. The Axis Lock, the DOG Lock, the Spyderco Compression Lock and the Spyderco Ball Lock are all far superior to the Liner Lock. They are all MECHANICALLY STRONGER! It's basic frelling physics! If you had half a clue about engineering you would be able to see that. Yes, ofcourse all locking mechanisms can fail. HOWEVER, the aforementioned locks are ALL less likely to fail than the Liner Lock is. It's in the mechanics of the way they work.
The only decent implementation of the Liner Lock that actually overcomes one of it's most basic weaknesses, is the Frame Lock. The locking bar is so much thicker and stronger that it becomes highly unlikely that it will buckle. 
That's the only relatively decent version of the liner lock.


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## Frangible (Jul 18, 2004)

What... you don't think bullets compress tissue either? It's called a temporary cavity. Yes, you can kill someone with a 3" knife blade... did I ever say you couldn't? I said "optimally lethal". And that length is 6". You are far less likely to hit major, blood bearing organs or cause the kind of blood loss that leads to incapacitation with a smaller blade. Though yes, it's possible.

When it comes to causing incapacitation/death due to blood loss, penetration matters, a lot, and if you don't understand that I am sorry.

[ QUOTE ]
Look, bub. The Axis Lock, the DOG Lock, the Spyderco Compression Lock and the Spyderco Ball Lock are all far superior to the Liner Lock. They are all MECHANICALLY STRONGER! It's basic frelling physics! If you had half a clue about engineering you would be able to see that.

[/ QUOTE ]

Really? The only way a liner lock will fail is if the liner slips out of alignment, which depending on design, such as how BM implements it, is not very likely.

Meanwhile, the AXIS lock uses springs, that can only be used so many times before they weaken and fail. It is the nature of the beast.

Perhaps instead of insulting, you should back up your assertations instead. Oh I know, insulting is easier, but leads to a much less productive discussion.

As I've said all along, I like the AXIS lock, despite the fact it uses springs that wear out in time. I'm willing to accept that as part of its price. Funny that you are as well, but do not apply that same consideration to assisted opening. And here I thought opening the knife faster, and easier was a good thing, silly me.


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## ErickThakrar (Jul 18, 2004)

Actually there are TWO ways a liner lock can fail. One, the liner can slip out of alignment, which is often caused by wear or an improperly adjusted liner or even the user gripping the knife too hard. Or two, the liner itself will buckle under the forces exerted upon it. Both of these have happened to even higher-end production knives. The liner slipping is by far the most common. 

As for the springs in the Axis Locks, well they're under significantly LESS tension than is required of the spring in an assisted or automatic opener. There is ALSO TWO OF THEM! and one spring is more than strong enough to assure a solid lockup. The omega springs are only required to move a small locking bar a fraction of an inch. The springs in any assisted opener has to move the entire mass of the blade and do it quickly enough to make sure the blade locks open. 
That requires a level of tension far, far greater than the springs in the Axis and there's generally only one spring in an assisted opener, meaning no backups, unlike the Axis. 
And I'm curious. Have you EVER had an Axis Lock fail on you? A spring break?
Assisted openers are fun toys, but that's it. 
Besides, I'll guarantee you that I can open my 710 faster than you can open your Avalanche and I can do it every time.










Your comments about knife lethality are so wrong as to be laughable. You might want to actually study up on that some day.


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## Taniwha (Jul 18, 2004)

[ QUOTE ]
*Frangible said:*
I don't recall who the poster was, and it sounds like you might've read it anyway.

[/ QUOTE ]
Thats a cop out and you know it. 

[ QUOTE ]
Between the US Army, and some random anonymous guy with 4 posts on an internet messageboard, I'll choose the US Army and goverment studies every time.

[/ QUOTE ]
Hey I'll give you that one... I still call bullshit on the 6" number, and I still know I am right, whether you believe me or not. The fact that you dont however pretty much says that you know balls about knife combatives... and it says that to anyone who does.

[ QUOTE ]
What... you don't think bullets compress tissue either? It's called a temporary cavity. Yes, you can kill someone with a 3" knife blade... did I ever say you couldn't? I said "optimally lethal". And that length is 6". You are far less likely to hit major, blood bearing organs or cause the kind of blood loss that leads to incapacitation with a smaller blade. Though yes, it's possible.

When it comes to causing incapacitation/death due to blood loss...

[/ QUOTE ]
Human being can last upwards of ten minutes with a major bleeder... most fatal fights last under 30 seconds. Think about that.
Blood loss is the least effective way to kill someone in a fight... destroy their ability to use tools and then their organs and/or their CNS. I can guaran-damn-tee you that it can be done with less than a 6" blade, quite easily. 


[ QUOTE ]
That's the beauty of the Emerson wave opener. I just hate the Emerson blade shape and chisel grind.

[/ QUOTE ]
It doesnt have to be an Emerson...

[ QUOTE ]
internet mall ninja?

[/ QUOTE ] Yes, yes you are.


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## Frangible (Jul 19, 2004)

[ QUOTE ]

Or two, the liner itself will buckle under the forces exerted upon it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Which would require an extreme amount of force, and is something the AXIS lock is not immune to either.

Yes, your 710 is faster because it is modified with the Emerson wave opener, which I believe is patented so it cannot be included by Benchmade on other knives.

[ QUOTE ]
he springs in any assisted opener has to move the entire mass of the blade and do it quickly enough to make sure the blade locks open. 

[/ QUOTE ]

The Kershaw SpeedSafe uses a tortion bar.

[ QUOTE ]

And I'm curious. Have you EVER had an Axis Lock fail on you? A spring break?
Assisted openers are fun toys, but that's it. 

[/ QUOTE ]

Nope. Can't say I've had an assisted opener fail on me either. On the other hand, I have had assisted openers work reliably for me every time in quickly and easily opening the blade.

[ QUOTE ]

Your comments about knife lethality are so wrong as to be laughable. You might want to actually study up on that some day.


[/ QUOTE ]

Look, idiot. You kill someone one of two ways. You either destroy the brain, or suffocate it through blood loss or oxygen deprivation, which in the end are the same thing to brain cells.

http://www.firearmstactical.com/hwfe.htm

Now, read that.

Did you read that yet?

I hope you read that. Because I hate arguing with people who are purposefully ignorant.

That is written for firearms but it applies to any sort of wound.

A bigger wound causes more blood loss. The more blood loss, the faster the brain is starved of oxygen, the faster the incapacitation.

Bigger wound = better. Can you comprehend that? Should I type slower?

Now, not only is a bigger wound better, but further, different areas of the body cause more blood loss as well. For the most part, they are deep in the body. Often, even deeper than 3".

So, for causing blood loss, a deep big hole is preferable to a small, shallow hole.

I've done quite a bit of study on it, so unless you cowboy up and start posting your links to articles written by medical doctors, perhaps you should admit you're wrong? Just a thought!


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## Taniwha (Jul 19, 2004)

First of all, Frangible, just lemmie say that you are cute as a button when mad. But why are you mad? If you're right, you have no reason to get upset....

[ QUOTE ]
The Kershaw SpeedSafe uses a tortion bar.

[/ QUOTE ]
An integral part of which is a SPRING, my neurologically challenged amigo. 

[ QUOTE ]
Look, idiot. You kill someone one of two ways. You either destroy the brain, or suffocate it through blood loss or oxygen deprivation, which in the end are the same thing to brain cells.
A bigger wound causes more blood loss. The more blood loss, the faster the brain is starved of oxygen, the faster the incapacitation.
Bigger wound = better. Can you comprehend that? 

[/ QUOTE ]
Of course the more blood loss you get the better, but it still takes too long. Kill the airway, or the mind, not the vascular system if you want to affect a stoppage NOW, not ten minutes from now.
And those big holes you are so fond of (and I thought opposites attracted... ), well with a bullet, most of that is Temporary cavity.
With a knife, there is no such thing as temporary cavity - it cuts the hole, and the hole stays that size. WYSIWYG.
And it doesnt take 6" of knife to make a big hole.

[ QUOTE ]
I hate arguing with people who are purposefully ignorant.

[/ QUOTE ] Time to stop talking to yourself then...


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## ErickThakrar (Jul 19, 2004)

Don't have any links to articles right now, but how about some tutorials from someone that has been there, done that and is still doing it every freaking day.
http://www.shivworks.com/tutorials.asp
Also, why don't you email Master At Arms James A. Keating, Datu Kelly Worden, Lee Aldridge, and hell, even Bram Frank and ask them what they think. 
Bullets and knives don't work quite the same way. You can't get in close with a bullet and peel the flesh from a man's arm so he can't use his hands and then bury your blade in his jugular, eye socket, carotid, temple. Every wound with a knife is a permanent cavity. However, I'm NOT saying that a knife is more lethal than a gun. It's not. But the 6 inches thing is pure and absolute drivel. 

As it says in that article you linked to, blood loss takes time. Anything short of a CNS shot isn't gonna drop someone right away. But when I'm talking about using a knife combatively, I'm not talking about stabbing him once. I'm talking about tearing someone to shreds. Multiple, rapid-fire stabs, and rips. Bloodloss is nice, but if you wait around for someone to exsanguinate, he's probably gonna kill you before he dies. You have to take away his ability to inflict harm. Stab, shear and clear. Repeat, rinse, repeat. 
It's not rocket science.
Quite a bit of study on it? I would get my money back. 
Oh and bub, what the FRELLING HELL does a medical doctor know about knife combatives? All they see is the aftermath. Not how it was applied nor how long the blade was. And plenty of people die every day on the street killed by people with knives less than 3 inches. The box cutter is rather popular for that kind of thing.


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## Frangible (Jul 19, 2004)

[ QUOTE ]
An integral part of which is a SPRING, my neurologically challenged amigo. 

[/ QUOTE ]

Did I claim it wasn't? No.

[ QUOTE ]

Of course the more blood loss you get the better, but it still takes too long. Kill the airway, or the mind, not the vascular system if you want to affect a stoppage NOW, not ten minutes from now.
And those big holes you are so fond of (and I thought opposites attracted... ), well with a bullet, most of that is Temporary cavity.
With a knife, there is no such thing as temporary cavity - it cuts the hole, and the hole stays that size. WYSIWYG.
And it doesnt take 6" of knife to make a big hole.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, wrong. You can argue the blood loss takes too long (10? seconds if you destroy the heart, even, little longer for a major artery), but the airway takes far longer than that! Compare an air choke and blood choke. There is a LOT of air in the circulating blood that takes MINUTES to use up, not seconds. Blood loss from a major organ or artery kills far faster than an airway.

Destruction of the brain is of course the fastest, but you'd have to be damn hardcore to do that with a knife reliably.

[ QUOTE ]

With a knife, there is no such thing as temporary cavity - it cuts the hole, and the hole stays that size. WYSIWYG.

[/ QUOTE ]

Heh, wasn't it you who just argued that a tissue around a knife wound compresses? 

[ QUOTE ]
And it doesnt take 6" of knife to make a big hole.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, but it does take 6" to reliably hit the larger, blood bearing organs. Bigger *is* better.

[ QUOTE ]
Time to stop talking to yourself then... 

[/ QUOTE ]

Speak for yourself. I've done my homework on wounding factors.


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## ErickThakrar (Jul 19, 2004)

I swear man. You really don't get it, do you?
Look, tissue compression when it comes to knives ALLOWS THE BLADE TO MAKE A DEEPER, PERMANENT CAVITY THAN THE BLADE IS LONG. It works this way because the surrounding tissues compress when you push the blade in!
It doesn't get any plainer than that.


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## Frangible (Jul 19, 2004)

Yes, Erick, you're right. It does. I agree. However, the Army still considers 6" to be "minimally lethal" in spite of that.

What criteria they base that upon, I do not know. What I do know is, it's always better to creater a larger, deeper wound.

Saying a 6" blade produces more deadly wounds than a 3" blade isn't voodoo mumbo-jumbo, it's pretty obvious. My point was, a folding pocket knife isn't the best combat knife due to the length, and in my opinion should not be relied upon to primarily fulfill such a role due to its lessened lethality from its length.

Is that such a weird thing?


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## Taniwha (Jul 19, 2004)

[ QUOTE ]
Did I claim it wasn't? No.

[/ QUOTE ]
Actually, you implied that yes. Dont bullshit me, you arent good enough at it to get away with it.

[ QUOTE ]
No, wrong. You can argue the blood loss takes too long (10? seconds if you destroy the heart, even, little longer for a major artery), but the airway takes far longer than that! Compare an air choke and blood choke. There is a LOT of air in the circulating blood that takes MINUTES to use up, not seconds. Blood loss from a major organ or artery kills far faster than an airway.

[/ QUOTE ]
Affects from no more O2 are more immediate than affects from blood loss, hypoxia works faster against your enemy than hypovolemia, tissue acidosis beggining sooner, slowing him down and making it easier to just keep hurting him, keep nailing important things - it all adds up, yes, but unless you destroy the heart outright, cutting off the O2 is gonna do more against him than cutting an artery. Especially if you injure the lungs themselves, then he has at least one pneumothorax, which is going to become a tension pneumothorax rather quickly with exertion, and is probably also serving to fill the remaining lung space with blood. This directly compromises the heart, as well as the oxygen delivery. Dont tell me airway isnt as affective... there is a lot more to airway than just O2 saturation.

[ QUOTE ]
Destruction of the brain is of course the fastest, but you'd have to be damn hardcore to do that with a knife reliably.

[/ QUOTE ] Funny, but I always figured that if the time ever came to save my life with a knife, I would have to be pretty hard-core. Its not about ****ing around, its about going home alive... that takes speed, aggression and force, early and often. I can put a knife through a skull if I have to. I can also put it to the back of the neck, and pull forward and I smash his head back... dont have to kill the brain to kill the CNS.

[ QUOTE ]


Heh, wasn't it you who just argued that a tissue around a knife wound compresses? 

[/ QUOTE ] You're the one who said tissue compression was a temporary cavity. Knife goes in, flesh compresses, letting the knife go deeper/make wider hole - knife come sout, flesh expands again, and suddenly the hole in the flesh is bigger than it was when it was compressed.
Tissue compression from firearms is different from knives, like I already said.

[ QUOTE ]
No, but it does take 6" to reliably hit the larger, blood bearing organs.

[/ QUOTE ]
No, it doesnt.

[ QUOTE ]
I've done my homework on wounding factors. 

[/ QUOTE ] And apparently got an F on it.


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## ErickThakrar (Jul 19, 2004)

Nope, I agree completely that you can do more damage with a 6 inch blade than with a 3 inch blade. However it's this original statement I call bullshit on. 
"You shouldn't be using a 3" pocketknife for self defense."

The Army does many things, and sadly not all of them make much sense. That includes teaching Brazilian Ju-Jitsu as the sole form of hand-to-hand combat. The Army isn't about self-defense. It's about war. 
For many people, most more likely, it's simply not possible to carry a 6 inch fixed blade. Nor do a lot of people find them comfortable to carry all day in a concealed rig. The folder fills an important niche in that it gives you a lethal weapon in a small package. We're not soldiers or cops, most of us. We can't strap on a duty belt and go to work or grocery shopping. So we clip a folder to a pocket. My wife...Well, soon to be ex-wife carries a BM Mini-Griptilian. She knows how to open it and she knows that she needs to make like a Singer with it if someone grabs her. Will it kill the guy right away? No, but if she nails him in the kidneys with it, cuts his biceps to the bone or sticks it in his eye and face about 8 times, I'm relatively certain she'll be able to get loose and get away. 
That's why I call bullshit on your 3 inches statement. 
Hell if it was up to me, I would gladly strap on my 8 inch Hossom everyday, but they tend to frown on such things in my workplace.


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## Taniwha (Jul 19, 2004)

[ QUOTE ]
*Frangible said:*
Yes, Erick, you're right. It does. I agree. However, the Army still considers 6" to be "minimally lethal" in spite of that.

What criteria they base that upon, I do not know. What I do know is, it's always better to creater a larger, deeper wound.

Saying a 6" blade produces more deadly wounds than a 3" blade isn't voodoo mumbo-jumbo, it's pretty obvious. My point was, a folding pocket knife isn't the best combat knife due to the length, and in my opinion should not be relied upon to primarily fulfill such a role due to its lessened lethality from its length.

Is that such a weird thing? 

[/ QUOTE ]

Whoa now hoss... you were all gung ho about this a minute ago, dont go soft on me now, you take the fun out of life.

A 6" (or larger) blade can make deeper wounds, of course it can... but the idea that you MUST have it is insane. 
A 6" blade in the hands of someone who doesnt know how to use it, is a metal stick! A 2" blade in the hands of someone who does know how to use it, is at the very least a long stay in the ICU, if not a permanent dirt-nap.
Used right, some 4" blades become more effective at stopping another human than some 6" blades.

You arent wrong about bigger (usually) being better... its just everything else, and the reasons WHY you think bigger is better that complete your resume as ex-president of Planet Crackpot.


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## TheBeam (Jul 19, 2004)

I noticed that this was a very active thread, so I must ask, what do you guys think of the Kershaw Blackout?


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## indenial (Jul 19, 2004)

I think this is a fascinating discussion since I know nothing about knives. Unfortunately, the differing opinions don't help the uninitiated much. I was hoping there was "one" pocket knife considered superior to all others. Evidently that is not the case.

BTW, I'm curious, just what type of occupation or activity leads one to have to ever use a knife for offensive or defensive purposes?


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## ErickThakrar (Jul 19, 2004)

How about just walking down the street, going to your car in the walmart parking lot, walking your dog in the park, and generally being in the wrong place at the wrong time. Happens to thousands of people every year. They get mugged, killed, raped, beaten, maimed, mutilated. 
You want to be next?

Sigh...Everybody always think it will never happen to them...


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## indenial (Jul 19, 2004)

LOL. No, of course I wouldn't want to be next. The likelihood is pretty slight statistically I'd say. But yes, I realize that happens, though. Other than being a crime victim, what other circumstances might there be?


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## Taniwha (Jul 19, 2004)

[ QUOTE ]
*indenial said:*
BTW, I'm curious, just what type of occupation or activity leads one to have to ever use a knife for offensive or defensive purposes? 

[/ QUOTE ]
Police/Military/Security personell often have to rely on a knife as a back-up to a jammed or dry firearm, or because its the first tool they can get to when attacked. Often some security professionals are un-able to take firearms into certain areas, or even locals, and are forced to rely on other tools. 

EMT's, and other "non-combatant" professionals are often also put in situations with mentally ill "clients" or having the people who originally attacked their "client" return, and are often forced to defend themselves. When all options but "live or die" are gone, lethal force is a must... and a lot of these people cannot (or do not) carry guns.

And, simple citizens... a lot of people carry knives, generally for utilitarian purposes, and generally its every-day joe's who get attacked by street criminals. For the same reason a lot of people go to self defense classes, a lot of people go to similar classes to learnt o use their pocket knives or hunting knives in defense if their life ever depends on it.
As the world gets more violent, more criminals turn to lethal force as a way to remove any witness (including the original victim) such measures are becoming more common, and more neccesary.
Choose to be food, or choose to go home at night under any circumstances... either trained or chained.


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## indenial (Jul 19, 2004)

That's pretty much what I thought. Thanks.


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## ErickThakrar (Jul 19, 2004)

Pretty slight statistically, eh? Hope you don't find out the hard way about statistics. 

Let me put it like this. If your life and limb or the life and limb of someone you love isn't in danger, then you probably shouldn't be using a knife to defend yourself. If it is in danger, however, then anything goes.


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## indenial (Jul 19, 2004)

I hope so, too, Erick.


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## Frangible (Jul 19, 2004)

[ QUOTE ]
Actually, you implied that yes. Dont bullshit me, you arent good enough at it to get away with it.

[/ QUOTE ]

So good to see you know what I'm thinking better than I do. Can I PM you when I lose my TV remote so you can tell me where I put it? I'd really appreciate that. Thanks.

[ QUOTE ]

Affects from no more O2 are more immediate than affects from blood loss, hypoxia works faster against your enemy than hypovolemia, tissue acidosis beggining sooner, slowing him down and making it easier to just keep hurting him, keep nailing important things - it all adds up, yes, but unless you destroy the heart outright, cutting off the O2 is gonna do more against him than cutting an artery. Especially if you injure the lungs themselves, then he has at least one pneumothorax, which is going to become a tension pneumothorax rather quickly with exertion, and is probably also serving to fill the remaining lung space with blood. This directly compromises the heart, as well as the oxygen delivery. Dont tell me airway isnt as affective... there is a lot more to airway than just O2 saturation.


[/ QUOTE ]

If you cut a major artery or vein, you can literally bleed to unconciousness in less than a minute. And hell, you can hold your breath longer than that.

You're right, puncturing a lung is quite deadly. That's why I discussed "large blood bearing organs" above /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[ QUOTE ]

No, it doesnt.

[/ QUOTE ]

Mmm, depending on the organ, layers of clothing, position, how fat they are, etc, it certainly can. Also, keep in mind you may not be buying the knife up to the hilt with every thrust-- don't you agree?

[ QUOTE ]

And apparently got an F on it.


[/ QUOTE ]

Real cute. Where's your uber links of knowledge, then?

[ QUOTE ]

We can't strap on a duty belt and go to work or grocery shopping. So we clip a folder to a pocket. 

[/ QUOTE ]

Right, any weapon is better than no weapon. What you can carry, I don't know. Personally I carry a 3.2ish inch folding knife and of course my trusty sidearm that I have a permit for.

Depending on where you live, a handgun can be a good option for self defense that is more compact than a field / fixed blade combat knife.

If you can't though, I agree, a small folder is better than nothing.

[ QUOTE ]
A 6" (or larger) blade can make deeper wounds, of course it can... but the idea that you MUST have it is insane.
A 6" blade in the hands of someone who doesnt know how to use it, is a metal stick! A 2" blade in the hands of someone who does know how to use it, is at the very least a long stay in the ICU, if not a permanent dirt-nap.
Used right, some 4" blades become more effective at stopping another human than some 6" blades.

You arent wrong about bigger (usually) being better... its just everything else, and the reasons WHY you think bigger is better that complete your resume as ex-president of Planet Crackpot. 

[/ QUOTE ]

Fact is, bigger wounds are better, and your argument is spurious. "All other factors being equal", nuff said.

Further, a bigger blade and a smaller blade may both create a lethal wound in one stab, but you bleed out quicker from a bigger hole. Faster incapacitation, better. Need I say more?


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## indenial (Jul 19, 2004)

Okay, okay. I think the horse is dead.

Back to the topic at hand. Is there any consensus whatsoever as to the best production pocket knife?

How about a top five list? Anyone? Inquiring minds want to know!


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## Taniwha (Jul 19, 2004)

[ QUOTE ]
*Frangible said:*
So good to see you know what I'm thinking better than I do. Can I PM you when I lose my TV remote so you can tell me where I put it? I'd really appreciate that. Thanks.

[/ QUOTE ]
In responce to Erick talking about springs you said "Kershaw speed-safe has a tortion bar" - unless thats somehow implying its not a spring and unless better, then is it your hobby to just go around and say random bits of information?

[ QUOTE ]
If you cut a major artery or vein, you can literally bleed to unconciousness in less than a minute. And hell, you can hold your breath longer than that.

[/ QUOTE ]
Very few people can hold their breath that long during stress, especially emotional and physical combined.
And my latest medical training (EMS) doesnt say unconciousness in one minute from a major bleed - might happen, but it might not too.


[ QUOTE ]
Mmm, depending on the organ, layers of clothing, position, how fat they are, etc, it certainly can. Also, keep in mind you may not be buying the knife up to the hilt with every thrust-- don't you agree?

[/ QUOTE ]
I agree that there are many variables, which can have their impact on the ability to get done what needs done... but I also know that there are ways around these that are not dependant on having a bigger/longer blade.
And why arent your burying the knife to the hilt on every thrust? If you hit bone, sure, that I can see. Otherwise, why arent you?

[ QUOTE ]
Real cute. Where's your uber links of knowledge, then?

[/ QUOTE ]
I dont need links to back up what I KNOW. But, the one Erick threw up is pretty darn good if you care to look. 
Try the knife articles on www.donrearic.com too. 

[ QUOTE ]
Fact is, bigger wounds are better, and your argument is spurious. "All other factors being equal", nuff said.

[/ QUOTE ] All factors being equal is not a condition found in the real world. 

[ QUOTE ]
Further, a bigger blade and a smaller blade may both create a lethal wound in one stab, but you bleed out quicker from a bigger hole.

[/ QUOTE ] So, as I have been trying to say, MAKE A BIGGER HOLE WITH YOUR SMALL KNIFE. You dont need a big knife to make big holes, it doesnt make that much difference if you do it right, and make the right holes to begin with.


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## indenial (Jul 19, 2004)

I think if y'all be kind enough to share your opinion about the top three or five pocket knives (3" would be long enough for my purposes) we might develop a consensus. 

Perhaps the whole notion is silly because of too many variables?


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## [email protected] (Jul 19, 2004)

OK, let's get this thread back on topic please, like said before, if ever there was a horse, I'm sure it's tartar by now... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thinking.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/jpshakehead.gif

First and final warning...


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## bubbacatfish (Jul 19, 2004)

Well the Sebenza seems to be the one most talked about these days, too expensive for me sadly. I personally alternate EDC between a BM CQC7 (It's gotta be pushing 10 years now) and for the last year or so one of two Kershaw Leeks (I have a standard and a Random Leek from CT&K). Although when camping I always take my Buck Solitaire (very comfortable grip, bit on the large side though). 

There's gotta be a couple of contenders from most of the bigger knife makers (L3 limited it to production), hmmn... how about listing the top 5 Manufacturers with one or two options for that company's best model?

ie. Spyderco - Delica, police

Anybody wanna play this game?


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## Topper (Jul 19, 2004)

Makers I like are (in no particular order)
Bench made Spyderco Kershaw SOG Gerber CRKT Camillus
I like D-2 blade steel but own and use many others.
ATS-34 AUS-8 440-a 440-c 420 425m. Anything over 3.5 inch blade is considered a weapon around here.. I do not think that law has changed but its been awhile since I checked
Lately my EDC is a Kershaw Leek. I have alot of pocket knives so I swap up at times.
Topper /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif


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## [email protected] (Jul 19, 2004)

After getting bitten by my first "good" knife, a Buck (112?), I used to avoid lockbacks, and turned to liner -locks, thinking they would be safer. I have tried several ones so far, but all failed under stress... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/jpshakehead.gif One of the best locks I've used is the one on the CRKT Kasper, a liner lock with a security that prevents the lock to disengage. simple, yet effective. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

That said, I have a CRKT van Hoyle on the way, an unconventional side opening knife. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif 
Snaplock 
I wonder if it will be any good... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thinking.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif


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## bubbacatfish (Jul 19, 2004)

I absolutely love my leeks, the standard model is very non-threatening looking and a great size for office use (not too big). The random is black so to non-knife people it's probably "dangerous" which is just sad, love the blade shape & I think it actually opens more forcefully than the regular leek too. 

Unfortunately I've been hearing from the local knife shop (who won't or can't sell them any more) that if you're found carrying one around here the cops will apparently confiscate. Hard to compete for the ultimate pocket knife title when you can't (legally) leave the house with it...


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## jook (Jul 19, 2004)

What purpose(s) does an EDC knife serve? Just curious.


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## bubbacatfish (Jul 19, 2004)

Every Day Carry? Mostly cuttin' tape & peelin' oranges kinda stuff - has to be useful. Opening boxes, opening envelopes (I use the back of the blade as a letter opener and on occasion a screwdriver) I use the tip of the blade for removing staples. I find pretty much anything you can do with scissors you can do with a sharp knife quicker. I have a Leatherman Micra on my keychain & it gets gets less use than whatever I have clipped to my pocket.

What were you thinking? Just curious.


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## jook (Jul 19, 2004)

I was thinking I'd love to own one but needed a rationalization. ;-0


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## bubbacatfish (Jul 19, 2004)

Owning a knife, or a Leek?


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## jook (Jul 19, 2004)

Yep.


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## bubbacatfish (Jul 19, 2004)

Yep!!?! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ooo.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rant.gif Are you saying you don't own ANY pocket knives at all?


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## jook (Jul 19, 2004)

Will I get thrown out of here if I mention my swiss army knife? The corkscrew has saved my life more than once.


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## ChrisA (Jul 19, 2004)

Funny thing about slipjoints - as long as you use them thoughtfully they will handle about 95 % of the every-day-cutting stuff. Same goes for steels and grinds - I prefer to use a slim blade with acute grind. I have several expensive knives at home (Mayo, Reeves, Microtechs, BMs, Spydies...) and while I love all of them I'm EDCing a Victorinox Soldier with a convexed edge. I don't mind resharpening the blade every once in a while and I have yet to cut myself due to the blade unintentionally folding on me (I have cut myself due to my own stupidity though /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif ). For the remaining 5% I prefer a fixed blade or a crow bar...

Chris


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## bubbacatfish (Jul 19, 2004)

Just reread my last post, wasn't meant to sound harsh. The thought that someone who collects flashlight wouldn't have at least one example of man's third oldest tool (right behind the stick & the rock) left me reeling... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif


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## bubbacatfish (Jul 19, 2004)

Right, this is more like it, I was waiting for somebody to mention SAKs, they have got to be in the top 5 (just not my personal 5). I've inherited a couple, never use or carry them, nothing against them, just personal preference!


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## ChrisA (Jul 19, 2004)

It all comes down to personal preference - there are by far too many "right" choices /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Chris


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## pedalinbob (Jul 19, 2004)

this is mostly in response to indenial's questions.

i think there are some excellent discussions on bladeforums about the "best" knife.

like indenial, i know little about knives--but im learning! 

from what i can tell, there are many levels of knives, and what you choose is always based upon your needs and the max $$$ you can spend.

for me, here in Michigan, i cannot carry anything over 3" blade. this makes my choices more simple. i also cringe at spending more than $50 or $60 on a knife.
narrows my choices even further. 

currently, i EDC a SAK recruit. seems to work fine, and i like the extra tools. it is small, inexpensive and easy to carry.
the fact that it is non-locking is a bit of a concern, but i havent had any problems yet.

i also have an old model spyderco delica. it is sharp, but im not fond of the serrations. love the thumbhole, and light weight. the newer versions have a nicer pocket clip and better steel (VG-10, i think?).

so...for a budget (but still great quality) locking knife, i think there are still many great choices (thanks to info from Joe Talmadge and other knife gurus). 

Spyderco Delica, Benchmade mini-grip, Kershaw leek (i think), and about 5 others i cannot recall at this time.

personally, for size, cost, quality and features, i am drawn to the spyderco delica VG10 plain blade or the benchmade mini grip plain blade in either the regular steel (440?) or D2. i havent had a chance to handle the benchmade yet.

i personally have no ideal locking system--im sure both would work fine for my needs.

Bob


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## L3 (Jul 19, 2004)

Great bunch of inputs! All are appreciated and deserving of contemplation.

*Liner locks are just plain unacceptable.* Use of same is due cause for not buying a particular knife.

Overall, the process of buying a great knife requires a 'balancing act' analysis of features. Most of the friends here are well-equipped to accomplish this. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

L3


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## pedalinbob (Jul 19, 2004)

"Liner locks are just plain unacceptable. Use of same is due cause for not buying a particular knife"

is that the kind where you have the release inside the area where the blade folds in? if that is the case, i am not fond of that style. seems like a strange place to have the release--right where the blade is going.

i prefer my old "lock back" style (is that what it is called?). im sure the "axis" type would be fine--but ive never tried one.

Bob


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## L3 (Jul 19, 2004)

Bob

Yes. The usual form of liner lock uses a section of the liner to engage the base of the blade near the pivot area. Sometimes liner locks fail to fully engage, thus inviting disengagement. Also, they tend to lack strength.

Lock back is generally a good system. They are usually positive, strong, and secure.

Since the AXIS lock is a patented design, it is only found on some Benchmade knife models. See the 'lock story' here:

Knife Locks 

L3


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## Spudman (Jul 19, 2004)

You mean I've spent all this time and money on pocket knives and there was an ultimate one all along? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon15.gif

I have some liner locks that seem pretty acceptable to me. It's not my favorite lock, but it came on my Buck mini Strider and Microtech mini socom and I haven't had a problem with either of them.

I have the Benchmade 710 and 705. I want a minigrip in s30v if they ever make one. (Ritter version?) I don't carry them as much as my Sebenza (every day) or Spyderco Lum Chinese (most weekends)

Isn't it really just a matter of different strokes for different folks? The same goes for ultimate car, ultimate guitar, and dare I say it, ultimate flashlight.

Gary


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## L3 (Jul 19, 2004)

Gary,

"Isn't it really just a matter of different strokes for different folks? The same goes for ultimate car, ultimate guitar, and dare I say it, ultimate flashlight."

*Of course what you say is true.* However, some folks are tuned into *better strokes* than others. You don't think everyone's views are equal, do you? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

One can learn and benefit from the insights of others. Or, if preferred, they can steadfastly cling to their own ideas. The choice is open. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Your ideas look fine to me.

L3


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## pedalinbob (Jul 19, 2004)

[ QUOTE ]
*L3 said:*
Bob

Yes. The usual form of liner lock uses a section of the liner to engage base of the blade near the pivot area. Sometimes liner locks fail to fully engage, thus inviting disengagement. Also, they tend to lack strength.

Lock back is generally a good system. They are usually positive, strong, and secure.

Since the AXIS lock is a patented design, it is only found on some Benchmade knife models. See the 'lock story' here: 
Knife Locks 

L3 

[/ QUOTE ]

thanks for the excellent read!

Bob


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## UnknownVT (Jul 19, 2004)

Some support for the SAK (Swiss Army Knife) - which is widely recognized and very unlikely to be mistaken for an offensive weapon - this is a huge advantage for me......

Please see these threads:

A tool-by-tool analysis
SAKs - Victorinox or Wenger  

My EDC Story - Victorinox Combo Tool Story 

Minimalist SAKs  

SAK - Purchase Rationale

...and if you're really, really serious about "studying" /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif EDCs (EveryDay Carries) take a look at this behemoth thread over at BladeForums standing at 659 posted replies, and over 59,000 views:

EDC - What's in Your Pocket(s)??


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## Frangible (Jul 19, 2004)

In the end the "ultimate pocket knife" depends on you! We can debate tactical folding knife features all day, but you might not even choose to carry one at all. For many people, a Leatherman or Swiss Army Knife can be a better tool for them.

It all depends on your needs and preferences. There is no magic knife that is all things to all people.

I gave my father an "uber" Benchmade folder that cost me over $100, but he still chose to carry his Victorinox Classic and left the BM at home. Why? He said it was too big, and was "only" a knife.


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## L3 (Jul 19, 2004)

UVT,

These interesting knives (SAKs) are certainly in a class by themselves. I am tempted to consider them as 'non-knives', but instead as 'pocket tool kits'. Strictly viewed from a knife vantage point, they don't stack up to the fine, high quality folding knives. But, such comparison isn't really fair, in light of the SAK's unique and amazing versatility.

SAKs require no defense and they deserve the well-earned place they have achieved.

Thanks for introducing them to this discussion. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

L3


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## indenial (Jul 19, 2004)

Well, one thing is clear, most of you have repeatedly mentioned the same group of manufacturers. I would imagine there must be scores of them around. So that at least narrows it down a bit.

These companies have been mentioned more often than any others:

Benchmade
Spyderco
Kershaw
CRKT
Sebenza

Let's try to close the group at this point. 

So, of this group, would everyone agree they're all good, or better, quality? Would anyone take any off the list?

Thanks!


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## L3 (Jul 19, 2004)

This is a fair 'draft' of the chapter headings for *The Knife Enthusiast's Constitution*. But, it must remain open for future ammendment, and the chapters must be recognized as carrying 'different relative weights'.

L3


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## UnknownVT (Jul 19, 2004)

[ QUOTE ]
*L3 said:*
These interesting knives (SAKs) are certainly in a class by themselves. I am tempted to consider them as 'non-knives', but instead as 'pocket tool kits'. Strictly viewed from a knife vantage point, they don't stack up to the fine, high quality folding knives. But, such comparison isn't really fair, in light of the SAK's unique and amazing versatility.

[/ QUOTE ]

As always YMMV - I personally would not carry a SAK unless I regarded it as a *Knife* first and foremost.

All the other tools are secondary (to me).

The fact that there are people who actually regard the SAK as a "multi-tool" or even a "non-knife" - is only evidence how well the other tools work.

As for the SAK as a knife being out classed by other hi-tech knives..... 

I'm afraid I'd beg to differ - 
the SAK is so ubiquitous and common that there's always the danger "familiarity breeds contempt" - and it's easy to knock the SAK because it is so common.....

Now I'd be the first to agree that the SAK steel is not the most premium or exotic - what is it this week? S30V?......

But with experienced SAK users - they can get the SAK blade razor sharp - most of the time saying their SAK blades are sharper than any other knife they've used....

Now is that just stubborn ownership pride? Or is there some truth in the matter? They can't ALL be lying, or can they?

Well, strangely enough it's down to blade design and their THINNESS - yes the diametric opposite to most hi-tech tacticals.....

Think about it, knives mostly cut through things - and mostly shouldn't thinner blades meet less resistance?

Most people carry knives to cut things rather than pry, or stab people (well, I hope this is so /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif)

SAKs are simply better designed than most knives due to simply the LONG experience of making basically the same knife blade........

Of course YMMV.......

But that's why I've EDC'd a SAK for over 22 years.


Want to add another brand to the short-list? - 
Victorinox 
followed by Wenger.....


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## Frangible (Jul 19, 2004)

My beef with swiss army knives is that the knife blade is so neglected. I'd like to have a fast, easy-to-open main knife blade as that is what I use most of the time, with a locking mechanism. I don't know if it's realistic to include those features in a SAK or not.


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## Craig720 (Jul 19, 2004)

A. G. Russell Ultimate Pen Knife /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif


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## indenial (Jul 19, 2004)

Regarding Swiss Army, the only one I own is a watch-the "Night Vision" and it's the only LED (other than my ArcAAA on my keychain) I can honestly say I carry on me "everyday". 

My multi-tool is a Leatherman. But I don't have a compelling reason why, it just is. I like it.


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## bubbacatfish (Jul 19, 2004)

I'd like to change Indenial's list just a bit if I may,

Benchmade 
Spyderco 
Kershaw 
CRKT 
SAK (Victorinox or Wenger made)

honourable mention to Chris Reeve's Knives Sebenza (2 sizes of 1 model competing with loads of other companies variations must earn it recognition).

On a side note I have no issues with liners, lockbacks, or slipjoints, I just figure any lock is better than none (which is why I don't EDC a SAK and why the Victorinox Tool is my favourite multi-tool, ALL THE TOOLS LOCK!!).


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## Spudman (Jul 19, 2004)

If we are voting on this I would put Buck in the list instead of CRKT, and higher up. I would also place Camillus ahead of CRKT, but behind Buck.


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## Joe Talmadge (Jul 19, 2004)

[ QUOTE ]
*indenial said:*
These companies have been mentioned more often than any others:

Benchmade
Spyderco
Kershaw
CRKT
Sebenza

Let's try to close the group at this point. 

So, of this group, would everyone agree they're all good, or better, quality? Would anyone take any off the list?


[/ QUOTE ]

Intellectually, it's very satisfying to have a little list, even better if it's ordered. But the list's usefulness will be limited; you're much better off asking to compare particular knives ... for example, there are definitely times I'd recommend a Spyderco over a Benchmade, but also definitely times I'd do the reverse. And CRKT isn't up to Benchmade and Spyderco quality, much less Sebenza quality -- CRKT's niche is that they provide an extremely high bang-for-the-buck, not that they're going for high-end excellence. And what of Camillus's incredible Darrel Ralph-designed line?

If you want to figure out what the best knives are for a particular job, describe the job, and describe the candidates to fill it (or at least some reasonable set of criteria to narrow the scope), and you'll get a ton more useful knowledge out of the resulting discussion than you will from the list you're trying to assemble!

Joe


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## Topper (Jul 19, 2004)

Joe is right on target.
Topper /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif


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## Steve C (Jul 19, 2004)

Whew!!! What a read...

The "mine is bigger/better than yours" urination competition was entertaining, for sure. I just wonder how many of those protagonists... oh, never mind.

Like Joe pointed out, what is your definition of a "pocket knife"? To me, its a multi-blade slip joint, and has Case or Victorinox, etc., on the side. I have a SAK that I received as a high school graduation present in 1969; it has been carried for eight years in the army and almost 26 years now as a cop. The tip on the big blade is long gone, but it and the small one will still take a hair-popping edge via Sharpmaker 204.

I have several 'tactical folders'. Been through dozens; Spyderco, BM, Emerson, a few customs. And I keep coming back to Spyderco. An older-style Endura with Black T blade is my EDC. But is this a "pocket knife"??? In the sense that it is carried ON the pocket (clipped and partially visible) , not IN it, I guess you could say that.

I've been in plainclothes for a while now, and often wonder just WHY I continue to carry the "big" knife; since 99% of the cutting chores I do these days are with the SAK. Habit, I guess. When I was in uniform, the "big" knife stayed busy; I ruined a marvelous CQC-7 getting a stinking drunk out of a wreck one night... 

Carrying a pistol EDC is a luxury few can have- and a man who knows what he is about can kill you with a knife quicker than a duffer with a firearm can. So I can understand why a lot of folks carry the tactical folders.

But to call such a dedicated-purpose knife a pocket knife seems a bit luducrous to me.

Anyway, I agree with the poster who said the SAKs are so good because they've been making them for so long. And I also agree with the theory that the "ultimate" knife, pocket or whatever, is nothing more than a wet dream.

Good thread; it livened up an otherwise dull evening...<BFG>

.


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## Minjin (Jul 19, 2004)

5 days a week, I EDC a Spyderco Calypso Jr. This, to me, represents small utility knife perfection. Good steel, grind, handle design/grip, very lightweight, and CHEAP.

On weekends, I carry my Al Mar SERE 2000. Yes, its a liner lock and arguably one of the best made that uses that lock. If someone doesn't want to consider that knife because of the lock, they're foolish IMHO.

Mark


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## indenial (Jul 20, 2004)

As I've said before, I literally knew nothing about knives before I entered this post. So what little I know now is due solely to the contributions of all of you knowledgable people. 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I would imagine world-wide there must be scores, if not hundreds of "non-custom" knife manufacturers.

If that is indeed the case, the fact that only a half dozen or so have been mentioned is very telling to me. 

The idea of one ultimate pocket knife does seem silly, even to me, but heck, what's wrong with a little wet dream once and awhile? Thanks all.


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## markdi (Jul 20, 2004)

what is wrong with liner locks


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## bubbacatfish (Jul 20, 2004)

Actually I skipped almost all of the pissing contest earlier in the thread (by choice) Indenial's request is what got me in here. In response to calling something like a CQC7 a pocket knife, I have for ages simply because it sounds less offensive - pocket knive vs. tactical folder, the former sounds decidedly less ominous. Frankly I found being a bigger guy, that a bigger knife just felt better & while Mr Emerson designed it for combat, the CQC7's edge is IMHO very handy. Maybe it's just me, I don't know but I feel the larger size of a "tactical folder" (to that of a SAK) makes it more useful, not less - with the obvious tradeoff being carry comfort, hence the clip.


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## bubbacatfish (Jul 20, 2004)

I think (again just my opinion) what we're talking about here are the Chevys, Fords and Hondas of the knife world (the Sebbie I guess than would be what, a Caddy?). Custom knives being the BMWs & Ferraris, etc. In the larger picture they all do the same thing (cut/get you where you're going) but all have different priorities. A SAK could be considered a SUV or minivan in that it'll handle a lot of different jobs but might not be quite as stylish as a Corvette. (God, please don't let this blow up in my face & become a Chevy/Ford pissing match!! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif While you'd buy a minivan or SUV for whatever reason millions of people buy them you'd probably still want that Corvette or Caddy if you could afford it, right? 

Nobody has said it yet so I will, the ultimate pocket knife is the one in your pocket, that has likely never failed you, likely never will and is there when you need it.


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## bubbacatfish (Jul 20, 2004)

I still like the leek /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/naughty.gif


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## Samoan (Jul 20, 2004)

I carry my Leek at work because it is smaller and looks less aggressive than my Boa or my Benchmades. On top of that it's all black and blends into my clothing. Have to play to your audience.

-F


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## UnknownVT (Jul 20, 2004)

may I ask - without meaning any disrespect to anyone - why ask this topic of "The Ultimate Pocket Knife" on a *Flashlight* forum?

(I have seen a few knife persons post in this thread, fortunately)

If one was really being *serious* about this topic why not post it at a forum about *Knives* ? Like BladeForums.com -

Now having brought that out -

Here on CPF - how would the subject of -
"The Ultimate Flashlight"
be regarded? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon6.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif


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## Frangible (Jul 20, 2004)

Actually no, this forum is: "Non-Flashlight Lights/Gadgets >> *Knives/Multi-tools*/Watches
Gadgets/Non-flashlight Electronics"

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif


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## Joe Talmadge (Jul 20, 2004)

[ QUOTE ]
*bubbacatfish said:*
I think (again just my opinion) what we're talking about here are the Chevys, Fords and Hondas of the knife world (the Sebbie I guess than would be what, a Caddy?). Custom knives being the BMWs & Ferraris, etc. 

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, the metaphor breaks down a little ... in the case of BMW vs Ford, generally speaking a BMW won't just use fancier materials and better fit&finish, but will also perform better. In the knife world, a handmade tactical folder from a high-end custom maker will not necessarily perform better than a Benchmade 710 w/ M2 steel blade, or a Sebenza. And when I say "perform", I just don't mean cutting performance, but overall robustness of the platform, choice of materials, etc. The customs might have more material choices, and have options of fancy woods and the like, but high-end production folders have reached the point where they can compete with customs, IMO. The value of customs are the design and material choices, pride of ownership, the ability to ask for changes in the design or materials.

Joe


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## UnknownVT (Jul 20, 2004)

[ QUOTE ]
*Frangible said:*
Actually no, this forum is: "Non-Flashlight Lights/Gadgets >> *Knives/Multi-tools*/Watches
Gadgets/Non-flashlight Electronics"
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif 

[/ QUOTE ]

In the same sentiments as your post - 
yes indeed - your are correct -

I did NOT realize that *CandlePower*Forums is where the majority of the world's *Knife* enthusiasts gather.

my mistake
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon6.gif

(just in case - 
that was said in jest, no insult intended /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif)

(it's NOT about whether the subject is posted in the correct section - but where most of the enthusiasts and experts about the topic would be more logically found)


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## Joe Talmadge (Jul 20, 2004)

[ QUOTE ]
*markdi said:*
what is wrong with liner locks 

[/ QUOTE ]

You should know that there is no consensus on the answer to this question. I lean hard towards not considering linerlocks for medium-duty or harder use, finding them suitable only for gents folders. As you can see, there are others on this string who feel the same way. 

The problem with liner locks is that they are vulnerable to multiple types of accidental release. To be clear, this is a matter of *reliability*, _not_ *strength*. Liner locks, for example, tend to be vulnerable to white-knuckling (the fingers of the hand engage the lock and accidently disengage it. More disturbing, proper liner lock operation is extremely dependent on the tang-liner junction having a geometry with very tight tolerances. Small changes in the geometry can make the lock fail. And BTW, there are almost always small changes in geometry -- if the knife is torqued and the handle flexes, the geometry changes; as the lock wears and the lock moves across the face of the tang, the geometry changes; etc. etc. The final summary is: while it's possible to make a rock-solid reliable liner lock, it's so difficult to _consistently_ do so, that I can't consider it a reliable format anymore. And note another problem: even if you thoroughly test your liner lock and determine it is reliable, as the lock wears the geometry changes, and so one day your lock can suddenly become unreliable ... this isn't just theory, it's happened in practice, over and over. The liner lock's problems are a result of a design that is just too vulnerable and difficult to execute, and NOT a problem of just poor execution by some companies.

The opposing view to what I presented above is that through testing, some liner locks can be determined to be reliable, and we shouldn't throw those out with the bathwater. In addition, there is controversy over some of the common tests that are used to show that liner locks are unreliable, some people feeling the tests are not representative of real use.

Joe


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## Frangible (Jul 20, 2004)

[ QUOTE ]


I did NOT realize that CandlePowerForums is where the majority of the world's Knife enthusiasts gather.

my mistake 

[/ QUOTE ]

Flashaholics, firearms enthusiasts, and knife fans are usually the same people. Why, I don't know. But more often than not, it's the same people/type of people that like these things. And hey, I'm one of em.


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## UnknownVT (Jul 20, 2004)

[ QUOTE ]
*Frangible said:*Flashaholics, firearms enthusiasts, and knife fans are usually the same people. Why, I don't know. But more often than not, it's the same people/type of people that like these things. And hey, I'm one of em. 

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes I have no doubt about *some* Flashaholics also being knife enthusiasts (I am one myself) 
- that's not the point is it?

OK, if I were seriously discussing this topic - 
I know I'd much rather post it over on BladeForums.com than in an albeit "relevant" sub-section of a *Flashlight* forum 
(no disrespect intended to any knife enthusiasts here) - 
of course *YMMV* .


I think this particular part of the debate is fruitless - 
we'll just have to agree to disagree - 
I'm sorry to have brought it up.


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## Frangible (Jul 20, 2004)

Definately time for a "The Ultimate Handgun" thread, then? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Glock 17!!!


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## indenial (Jul 20, 2004)

I think it's great that we have an opportunity to discuss other things despite flashlights on this forum. 

I, as I believe most do on this site, have an interest in all types of gadgets. So it's great to hear the opinions of knowledgeable people on other things.

One additional point. For better or worse, my interest does not stem from an engineering or technical point of view. My brain is simply not wired that way. That's why I truly appreciate the CPF. Despite the superior knowledge and understanding of lights, etc., of it's members, for the most part the technically challenged as myself are not made to feel stupid. 

Thanks.


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## L3 (Jul 20, 2004)

Frangible,

I almost can't resist 'The Ultimate Handgun'. But, for now, I shall try. Just a hint, though, SigArms may hold the secret. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

L3


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## Minjin (Jul 20, 2004)

UnknownVT: I have to say, your whole argument is silly. This forum is here for the expressed purpose of talking about non flashlight items. Your logic would dictate that if you want to talk politics, you should call up your politician. If you want to talk about cars, call up Henry Ford. Yes, there are often better 'authorities' on subjects but does that mean that 'lesser' people can't discuss things when and where they want? 

Just yesterday, you posted in a thread about binoculars. I didn't see you whine about how they should have posted at a specialty optics forum (I'm sure they're out there). And less than a month ago, YOU posted a thread here on the CandlePower forums about knives.

http://www.candlepowerforums.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=606765&page=&view=&sb=5&o=&vc=1

Pot, meet kettle... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif

Joe, I agree that liner locks tend to be cheap, therefore there will be cheap examples out there. However, when properly done, they can be just as good as any other lock in use, and better in some respects. I certainly wouldn't trust an axis lock knife as my only knife on a desert island. A liner lock is easily cleaned and there really isn't anything to break. What happens when you get sand in your axis lock?

Mark


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## KC2IXE (Jul 20, 2004)

I think this argument can be answered by asking a question....

Ultimate Pocket knife for WHAT?

Are you worried about defense?
Are you wearing a suit?
Working around sheeple?
Working around ropes?
Doing heavy cutting?

The "Untimate" production pocket knife might range from a Rekat SIFU all the way down to WH Lancet, to a swiss army knife, to a cricket/ladybug, or a small slipjoint, or jeck, the tiny blade on my Leatherman Squirt

It all depends on where you are going, and what you are doing - some places might let you carry that squirt, and nothing else


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## ErickThakrar (Jul 20, 2004)

Minjin, you blow out the sand, rinse it off with water, dry it out and keep moving. After you've oiled it, ofcourse. 
What? You don't have a bottle of oil on you? What are you doing on a desert island without your personal kit?


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## js (Jul 20, 2004)

Wow. Quite the thread.

I don't know much about knives, but I did consider getting one of the Benchmade AXIS locks. I really liked the feel of opening and closing those knives. Very nice. But when I learned about CRK and the Sebenzas, I fell in love. These, I was sure, were the knives for me. So I bought a Large Regular Sebenza, and I have no regrets. Is it the best production knife? No idea--sort of a silly question anyway, as needs and wants vary from person to person. I couldn't even say whether or not it is the best knife *for me*. I simply don't know enough about all the possible choices out there for production folders.

A few questions, however:

The people involved in this thread seemed to have discounted CRK from the "top five" list of folding knife makers. Why is that? Just curious and not defensive or emotional or anything. I got the impression from my research on bladeforums and knifeforums that the Sebenza was on everyone's "top five" best folders list. Is that wrong? I'd love to hear an expanded commentary on why the Sebenzas do or don't make the cut. (Pun intended).

Second, and this may go hand in hand with the first: are we including *frame-locks* in the same leauge/category with liner-locks? Let me just say that while I have no idea whether the frame lock on my Sebenza is stronger or more reliable than an AXIS lock, I can say that it seems VERY strong and reliable to me--but I'm no expert on knives. What's the story here? What failure or accidental release mechanisms are there with the frame locks?

Thanks for any info. But I should mention that while I may get another knife, I probably will NEVER get rid of my Sebenza, whatever its short-commings may or may not be. My Sebenza was "born" on my birthday! It was fate. It was meant to be with me. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif I really love that I can take my Sebenza completely apart, BTW. To me that's a major plus! I love performing maintenance on my tools. It's a great source of satisfaction for me.

Oh, and one more thing: I don't EDC a knife for self-defense, so that aspect of knives was not an issue for me.


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## lasercrazy (Jul 20, 2004)

[ QUOTE ]
*Frangible said:*
Definately time for a "The Ultimate Handgun" thread, then? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Glock 17!!! 

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL, how about a DE? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif


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## Frangible (Jul 20, 2004)

Don't sweat the "list" too much, it will vary from person to person. I've heard very good things about the Sebenza but the price / handle material scared me off /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

The AXIS lock is pretty sweet, but a well designed liner lock should hold up well, too. As to what their exact failure rates or whatever are, I don't think any sort of quanitifed scientific study has been done on it, so who knows.


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## Frangible (Jul 20, 2004)

[ QUOTE ]

LOL, how about a DE? 

[/ QUOTE ]

Desert Eagles are a great gun-- in Counter-Strike. For the real world... GLOCK PERFECTION. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif


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## ErickThakrar (Jul 20, 2004)

The Sebenza is without a doubt, a great knife. I think most of us tend to discount them in this lineup mainly because of the price. I know that's my main "beef" with them. 
A framelock, while using similar principles as the liner lock is so much stronger that the point is almost moot. They CAN fail however, but it is less likely to do so than a liner lock.
I trust framelocks too. I have a Camillus CUDA MAXX and it's a hell of knife. Locks up like a bank vault. I've handled Sebenza's before and they lock up impressively as well. 
I really want a Scott Cook Lochsa though. Very similar to the Sebenza but more refined and the handle is milled from one single, solid billet of titanium. One chunk. No screws, except for the pivot and clip.


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## Joe Talmadge (Jul 20, 2004)

js: I personally do not include framelocks when I'm talking about liner locks. Framelocks may be based on the same principle as liner locks, but the execution is different enough that it overcomes the reliability concerns. And, furthermore, any discussion of "best" production knife manufacturers that doesn't include CRK is definitely deficient!

Minjin writes:
[ QUOTE ]
Joe, I agree that liner locks tend to be cheap, therefore there will be cheap examples out there. However, when properly done, they can be just as good as any other lock in use, and better in some respects.

[/ QUOTE ]

Minjin, in some respects, I'm making the reverse point. I'm not talking about "cheap" liner locks. I'm talking about all liner locks, including those made by the acknowledge top-tier custom makers and best production manufacturers. I've tested enough to know that even samples from them have a disturbingly high failure rate. That's partially what led me to the conclusion that it's not a matter of shoddy manufacturer or lack of craftsmanship ... the liner lock's problem lies in the fact that the design is so tricky to get right that even "the best" have trouble doing it consistently. That's really a critical point I'm asserting -- it's not about cheapness, it's about an inherently less-reliable design.

I agree that there are liner locks out there that are reliable, and stay reliable through their entire lifetime. Unfortunately, it's very very difficult to tell which ones they are. You can't tell based on how solid the lockup feels, you can't tell based on how thick the liner is, you can't tell based on price or quality, you can't tell based on maker ... you can't even tell based on the knife passing any test you throw at it, because when the lock wears in a few months, the geometry changes and it could suddenly start failing. There are too many lock formats that don't have these problems (or at least not have them in such high percentages) -- compression lock, axis lock, lockback, framelock, etc. -- that I see little reason to continue sweating liner locks.

Joe


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## Steve C (Jul 20, 2004)

<<...The ultimate pocket knife is the one you have with you when you need it...>>

Well said, bubbacatfish. You're only as good as what you've got- in hand, in a pocket, or tied to you.

Interestingly, I tried a Sebenza, just to see what all the excitement was about. I must report that I was somewhat underwhelmed. Nothing bad, design or quality-wise. The knife just didn't do anything for me, if ya know what I mean.

The Ultimate Handgun? Yeah, I'm up for that... give me combat tupperware any day. And I would agree with the G17, seeing as 9mm ammunition is more prolific. My personal choice is the G19 and G26.

For general use, my agency issues your choice of a P220 or P228. We pay extra for a proprietary finish so the guns won't rust-while-you-watch. For SWAT, we issue G35s.

I used to be a dyed-in-the-wool SIG man. But the simple truth is that the SIG is not as robust as the Glock, has 1/3 more parts (55 vs 34), and the trigger transition skills necessary mean more time has to be spent learning the crunch-tick. No big deal, but that time could be better utilized on speed drills, etc.

Okay, I pulled the pin; somebody release the spoon...<BFG>


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## ErickThakrar (Jul 20, 2004)

Remember, once you pull the pin, Mr. Grenade is no longer your friend!


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## js (Jul 20, 2004)

[ QUOTE ]
*Steve C said:*
<<...The ultimate pocket knife is the one you have with you when you need it...>>

Well said, bubbacatfish. You're only as good as what you've got- in hand, in a pocket, or tied to you.

Interestingly, I tried a Sebenza, just to see what all the excitement was about. I must report that I was somewhat underwhelmed. Nothing bad, design or quality-wise. The knife just didn't do anything for me, if ya know what I mean.


[/ QUOTE ]

I've heard a people say this before, and the issue(s) have always been aesthetics. And who can argue that ?!? And it's very important. I don't discount it. IIRC, the Sebenza has been dubbed "the grey turd" in certain circles.

It certainly is a plain jane kinda knife. But I'm a plain jane kinda guy--at least in my aesthetics. Personally, I love the look and lines and character of the Sebenzas. At the moment, I honestly can't think of a single detail which I'd change. Functionally, I really like the Titanium scales. They are very grippy, even when wet. Plus, when they get scratched up enough, I'll just send my Sebbie back to meet it's maker for a refurb and it will come back looking like new.

But anyway, as for aesthetics, as I said, who can argue that?


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## Frangible (Jul 20, 2004)

[ QUOTE ]
Plus, when they get scratched up enough, I'll just send my Sebbie back to meet it's maker for a refurb and it will come back looking like new.

[/ QUOTE ]

I love titanium... but man does it get scratched up easily. My titanium Luminox looks it's been through a war. I recently got a Snowpeak titanium spork (BEST UTENSIL... EVAR) and just about laughed at the fact it came "pre-scratched".

People (sheeple) look at me like I'm weird when I explain this to them... in the eyes of Joe sixpack, titanium is stronger than steel in every way and immune to scratching =/.


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## ErickThakrar (Jul 20, 2004)

Yeah, but hell, it's easy enough to refinish. I've had my Camillus CUDA MAXX for about 6 months and she's fine. With the finer finishes though, scratches show up easier, no doubt. Keep it a rough ceramic vibration tumbled finish and it should last ok, or a beadblast.
And I have a Citizen Ti watch where only the clasp on it is really scuffed up and I've worn that every day for 5 years.


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## Frangible (Jul 20, 2004)

Rougher finish is definately the way to go imo. I've been thinking about buffing the watch a bit, but not sure I want to lose much material around some parts like the clasp that only seem to be ~1mm thick anyway. My fine tooling skills leave something to be desired /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif


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## ErickThakrar (Jul 20, 2004)

It's kinda funny though. I get doubting looks everytime I tell someone that steel is harder than titanium. Oh and I just took an abrasive wheel to the clasp on my watch and that cleaned up the scuffing right quick. Looks much better now /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
I used one of the scotchbrite pad-like wheels with I think a 320 grit coarseness and it worked great. Gives it a brushed look.


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## Frangible (Jul 20, 2004)

Hmm, best I have on my Dremel is 120 grit. Guess that would be a bit rough .


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## outlaw918692000 (Jul 20, 2004)

The best is the Benchmade 630 skirmish blackwood got mine WOW! Big knife.


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## Fitz (Jul 20, 2004)

I think that the "ultimate" pocket knife is a very personal decision, just as an "ultimate" flashlight. Everyone has individual ideas about what their needs and wants are in both categories. Mine change from time to time, depending on the circumstances and what I "think" I might need at the time. I find that I change my EDC knife less often than my EDC light though. These days I carry a Bob Dozier DK-FH standard size (3" blade) with Carbon Fiber scales and Titanium pocket clip. It uses a Walker style liner lock that is .100" thick Titanium and perfectly hand mated to the blade. I doubt it will ever fail, unlike some of the thinner, mass produced liner locks that are machined to whatever tolerance the manufacturer has to use so that they all "fit".
I do own knives with other locking mechanisms, including a Benchmade with the axis lock, and I'm sure it will stand up to abuse as well. I just enjoy carrying something that someone has made with their own hand, whether it be a custom knife or flashlight or something else. Knowing that I'm using something that a maker has taken their time, thoughts, and talents, and put them into making something for others to use and enjoy gives me a more personal feeling about using and enjoying that equipment. Here's a pic of my EDC knife.


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## gadgetgeekman (Jul 21, 2004)

What do you guys think of the locking mechanism of the SOG Flash II? Thanks, Lou


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## Frangible (Jul 21, 2004)

Ok, I broke out the dremel with a steel brush on the titanium. Tried brass at first but was too soft.

It was *beautiful*. Didn't noticably decrease the thickness and took off the scratches almost magically. Watch is lookin good now.

So... dremel + steel brush works well for titanium I think.


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## toos (Jul 21, 2004)

Does anyone have experience with the Boker Cera-Titan folders? Do they really hold an edge better and how "robust" is the blade?


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## bryguy42 (Jul 21, 2004)

I think it's strange that no one has mentiond SOG and their revolutionary "ARC" locking mechanism...

This is one of the finest locking mechanisms ever devised.

I have an X-RAY VISION SOG and it is awesome.

ATS-34 steel, Smooth as silk action, the lock-up is impeccable (ARC, Patented), Very aggressive stylishly functional blade design.

http://www.sogknives.com/Images/images2/SOGimages/X-RAYVIS.jpg


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## ErickThakrar (Jul 21, 2004)

The ARC lock works well, but is rather derivative of the Axis Lock as is the Cold Steel version.


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## jook (Jul 22, 2004)

This thread has been fascinating and opened up another world which I barely knew existed. I was wondering if it possible to get a recommendation. I'm looking for an all purpose instrument - not self-defense though. I really really like what I've read and seen of the Kershaw leek. I like what I've read about the assisted opener (yes, I read the drawbacks), it fits my budget (<$100), it's simple appearance and its compact size.

Based on these traits, would you say the leek is for me? Which one? There are so many models. Best place to buy? E-bay seems to have good prices, though I only looked at 2 other online sites. Thanks for any tips.


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## Joe Talmadge (Jul 22, 2004)

The Leek is a sound choice for a small EDC that's not meant for defensive use. I find the general blade shape -- very sharp point, mostly straight edge with little belly -- to be the best all-around general EDC shape going. Handle is comfy. The Leek is a framelock, reasonably solid and reliable. Go for it!

If you didn't have the assisted-opener requirement, there are some knives I'd point you to before the Leek. But the Leek is a fine knife.


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## Joe Talmadge (Jul 22, 2004)

[ QUOTE ]
*ErickThakrar said:*
The ARC lock works well, but is rather derivative of the Axis Lock as is the Cold Steel version. 

[/ QUOTE ]

In fact, I think Cold Steel's Ultra Lock is so derivative of the Axis lock, that Benchmade sued for patent infringement, and I believe CS is licensing the rights to build the Ultra lOck from Benchmade. Could be wrong, though.

The Arc lock is derivative as well, but not an outright infringement. I think the Vision series is very very well-done. It would be a serious contender in the best 3.5"-bladed folder contest, if not for that goofy overly-aggressive tanto blade.

Joe


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## ErickThakrar (Jul 22, 2004)

Yeah, that blade is my main reason for not getting one. I like it otherwise and I like SOG knives in general. Just think that blade shape is silly as hell.


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## Sigifrith (Jul 22, 2004)

Some of you have mentioned Blade Forum in these posts. Everyone take a look at the passarounds there. I've been able to use a variety of Spyderco knives. The Spydie Salt & Vagabond were waiting for me tonight. I'll have a week to try them, then mail on to the next knife knut. It's a great way to form your own opinion about a knife. I'm in line to try a Small Sebenza with wood inlays. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
There a some passarounds with a Lotto at the end. I'm hoping to win the Longbow passaround.
FWIW, I have a variety of Spydies from Meerkat up to Military. Nothing takes the place of my large plain Sebenza Classic for long. Just love the way it feels.


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## bubbacatfish (Jul 23, 2004)

Here's another Leek you may not have seen, my current favourite EDC.

http://www.chesapeakeknifeandtool.com/cgi-local/SoftCart.exe/online-store/scstore/ker183_4-excl.htm?L+scstore+nhwj3604ffd690d6


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## L3 (Jul 23, 2004)

Thanks to all for the many interesting contributions to this thread. It is obvious that knives, as well as flashlights, are important to many and maybe most of us.

Best regards,
Bob


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## jook (Jul 23, 2004)

thanks bubba, I just ordered one of 'em.


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## felder (Jul 23, 2004)

Mmm...I'd say Chris Reeve Knives beat out Benchmade. My Sebenza beats the benchmade knives hands down for fit and finish. You can easily take the thing apart for cleaning, and the frame lock clicks into place with a very satisfying "thunk". I could click it all day.

However, Benchmade knives are really nice, particularly for their price point. They are much cheaper than a Sebenza.

I have a 710...I like it but it was a bit too long for daily pocket carry. So, I ordered a 705 which arrived yesterday. I have to say, I'm in love with my new 705. It's the perfect size for me, dual thumbstuds, axis lock, and reversable click. Perfect for a left hander like me...or a right hander for that matter. Great for use when I may have reservations about messing up my Sebenza.

Oh BTW...not to stray off topic, but I put in an order for that Unicorn Magnum Peppermill. It got consistently high ratings from review sites and my peppermill stinks. I'll post about it when it gets here.

[ QUOTE ]
*L3 said:*
Some here already know it. And, some do not.

*There simply is just one choice in production pocket knives.* The brand is *BENCHMADE*. They have styles and sizes to suit all tastes. What do I recommend? The Benchmade Model *520 Presidio Pardue*. See it under the 'Black Class'.

For those new to the brand, you can quickly get up to speed on all the ins and outs of Benchmade knives at Benchmade Forum. Here you will learn about superior design, advanced engineering, and first rate metallurgical quality.

What is positively *the best folding knife locking system available today?* The Benchmade *AXIS*(tm) lock. Better can't be found.

Go to these places only if the *finest in production knives* is of importance to you. You'll leave the other brands behind. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

L3 

[/ QUOTE ]


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## bryguy42 (Jul 23, 2004)

[ QUOTE ]
*ErickThakrar said:*
Yeah, that blade is my main reason for not getting one. I like it otherwise and I like SOG knives in general. Just think that blade shape is silly as hell. 

[/ QUOTE ]


That "silly" blade is the MAIN reason I bought the knife...

It has the benefits of serrations, flat ground for slicing, AND last but not least, the tanto style for Puncturing things easily!

And as I said previously, the action is smooth as silk, the ARC lock mechanism is state of the art, and a real bargain considering the ATS-34. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif


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## Joe Talmadge (Jul 23, 2004)

[ QUOTE ]
*felder said:*
Mmm...I'd say Chris Reeve Knives beat out Benchmade. My Sebenza beats the benchmade knives hands down for fit and finish. You can easily take the thing apart for cleaning, and the frame lock clicks into place with a very satisfying "thunk". I could click it all day.

However, Benchmade knives are really nice, particularly for their price point. They are much cheaper than a Sebenza.

[/ QUOTE ]

No doubt, the Sebenza is one of the greatest knives in the history of the universe. However, while I'd agree that no one matches CRK for fit and finish, I'd add that fit and finish alone do not a knife make. 
Look, for example, at the Axis AFCK and the Sebenza, for a utility-defense knife. Keep in mind "utility-defense" is a _very_ common reason for folder carry, on the forums. Try working both knives hard, slicing, stabbing, etc. -- AFCK is rock solid in your hand, Sebenza not quite so, right? And how about opening? Tiny pointy thumb stud vs big hole -- try hitting that pointy thing under stress. S30V is impressive, but M2 at least as much.

In short, I feel the Axis AFCK and Axis 710 are both better knives than the Sebenza for certain important and common uses. No doubt, as I said, the Sebenza is one of the greatest knives ever, with unmatched fit & finish, excellent design and edge geometry, and a stronger solution as a classy utility knife. But for some of the main reasons some of the guys here carry folders, my opinion is that if you judge on all merits, those Benchmades pretty much beat any production knife available, at any price, period. It depends on what the mission of the knife is.

Joe


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## Frangible (Jul 23, 2004)

I will say straight-up, I have never seen a Sebenza personally, but I would not get one over the 806D2 AFCK.

Why?

Benchmade 806D2 AFCK:
+ Better handle IMO, I love the grip of G10 far more than metal
+ Easier opening via thumbhole vs. stud
+ Better locking mechanism: AXIS vs. liner lock
+ Better blade design: serrations for utility
+ Longer blade: better for self-defense and some utility tasks
+ 1/4 the price

Sebenza:
+ Better steel. I prefer S30V to D2, it holds an edge better.
+ Looks less scary to sheeple. Not "evil black".
+ Smaller/more compact for more comfortable carry

I can see why people like the Sebenza. But on my personal list of features I like/dislike, I'd take the 806.


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## ErickThakrar (Jul 23, 2004)

Bryguy, in my opinion serrations are not a benefit. In stark contrast to the way you feel, I think they rob you of a lot of perfectly good plain edge. I'll take a plain edge knife any day over a serrated one. And frankly while I like flatground blades, the best slicers I've EVER handled have all been hollowground. A hollowgrind blade will sail through most rope and other cutting. Less drag on the material witht the hollow grind. I like both, however. 
As for the Tanto puncturing things more easily. Bah, humbug!
The Americanized tanto is in no way a better stabber than a drop point like the 710. Too much material in the tip, the angles aren't as shallow as in most of the really pointy knives. And the 710 is one pointy motherlover!!!


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## L3 (Jul 23, 2004)

The AXIS lock alone, is a logical and sufficient basis for zeroing in on Benchmade. You just can't get a better lock! With BM's build quality and nearly endless variety of folding knives, finding one to suit your needs should be 'a piece of cake'.

L3


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## L3 (Jul 23, 2004)

felder,

I am glad you decided to give the Unicorn Magnum a try. I am confident that you will be delighted with it. Normally, I wouldn't introduce a subject of this kind. But, the general quality of most peppermills is unbelievably awful, and this particular product (the Unicorn) is truly deserving of special acknowledgement.

I have given them to most of my relatives.

Bob


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## Sigifrith (Jul 23, 2004)

Ditto on the Unicorn Magnum. We've had ours about a year, & it's the best mill we've ever owned.


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## bryguy42 (Jul 23, 2004)

Erick, Having a half serrated blade IMHO is most definitely a benefit. Where I work I use a knife all the time. (from cutting open boxes,rope,heavy rubber,hard-pressed circular cardboard tubes,leather,tubing, etc. etc.) And in my experience there are times (usually on the "heavy duty chores") that without using the serrated edge of my knife the chore of cutting would be MUCH more difficult...

Also, I agree that a hollow ground edge is sharper... HOWEVER, most people lack the necessary skills to keep such a grind at it's PEAK sharpness.

And as far as saying a tanto blade is not as good a stabber as a drop point , perhaps you are correct. However I mentioned that they are great for "puncturing" items, meaning stuff like : 55 gallon drums,sheet metal,hard plastic, that kind of stuff. Perhaps I should have elaborated more...



Here is a Quote from a knife owner in bladeforums that was kind enough to reply to a Query of mine: 
"Bryguy, Don't know about the timeline, but I do own both, benchmade is a wonderful knife, very good lock, but........the arc lock on all my SOGs seems much smoother IMO. I have several BMs and really like them, but the locks seem a little harder to release sometimes, and they don't seem quite as smooth as the SOGs arc lock.
Of course everyone has their own favorites"

All I'm trying to say is that for the money, the SOG is a better deal than the benchmade... Not that the SOG is "better" but perhaps as good for less moolah.


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## L3 (Jul 24, 2004)

*The most productive form of thinking is positive thinking.* It is always better to guided by a *quest for the best* than to suffer with thoughts about_ why something is bad_. This is particularly true where people are concerned. Rather than being consumed with perceived faults in others, it is wise to identify and amplify the goodness in them.

One's world is effectively elevated by progressing along the upward staircases of positives, not by tearing down everything in sight. So it is with knives, guns, electronics, flashlights, people, and all things.

How effectively this is done, determines the level of illumination, or darkness, of both your world and your mind.

L3


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## js (Jul 26, 2004)

[ QUOTE ]
*L3 said:*
*The most productive form of thinking is positive thinking.* It is always better to guided by a *quest for the best* than to suffer with thoughts about_ why something is bad_. This is particularly true where people are concerned. Rather than being consumed with perceived faults in others, it is wise to identify and amplify the goodness in them.

One's world is effectively elevated by progressing along the upward staircases of positives, not by tearing down everything in sight. So it is with knives, guns, electronics, flashlights, people, and all things.

How effectively this is done, determines the level of illumination, or darkness, of both your world and your mind.

L3 

[/ QUOTE ]

Nice. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbsup.gif

One comment on the Sebenza vs. other knives issue: I've noticed discontent with the Sebenza thumb stud more than once around different forums, and I always find it odd. For me personally, I much prefer the Sebenza thumb stud to a hole, and I have never had a problem opening my Sebenza. That stud just seems to grab on and hold. You do, however, have to get used to her, and develope the right opening technique.

Anyway, just wanted to mention that for me the thumb stud on the Sebenza was a definite upside to the knife.


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## indenial (Sep 12, 2004)

[ QUOTE ]

No doubt, the Sebenza is one of the greatest knives in the history of the universe. However, while I'd agree that no one matches CRK for fit and finish, I'd add that fit and finish alone do not a knife make. 
Look, for example, at the Axis AFCK and the Sebenza, for a utility-defense knife. Keep in mind "utility-defense" is a _very_ common reason for folder carry, on the forums. Try working both knives hard, slicing, stabbing, etc. -- AFCK is rock solid in your hand, Sebenza not quite so, right? And how about opening? Tiny pointy thumb stud vs big hole -- try hitting that pointy thing under stress. S30V is impressive, but M2 at least as much.

In short, I feel the Axis AFCK and Axis 710 are both better knives than the Sebenza for certain important and common uses. No doubt, as I said, the Sebenza is one of the greatest knives ever, with unmatched fit & finish, excellent design and edge geometry, and a stronger solution as a classy utility knife. But for some of the main reasons some of the guys here carry folders, my opinion is that if you judge on all merits, those Benchmades pretty much beat any production knife available, at any price, period. It depends on what the mission of the knife is.

Joe 

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, based upon the above comments and some research, and after discovering just who and how well-regarded Mr. Talmadge is in the field of knives, I made the plunge and purchased a Chris Reeve Small Regular Sebenza as my first folder knife. Wow! Now I know what they mean by "bank vault" quality. Never thought I would get so much info about knives in a forum for lights! Thanks all. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/buttrock.gif


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## Overload (Sep 12, 2004)

Hmmm, from the above quote from Mr Talmadge, I would have bought a Benchmade 710HS or 806D2. Heck, I could have bought BOTH for the price of Sebbie. OTOH, I own two small Sebbies, and a 710HS (806 is too big for me), and I have an order in with Scott Cook for an improved [my opinion] Sebbie style knife called the Lochsa. So, I'm poor at impluse control.

In MY opinion, I like being able to flick open my knives, love the AXIS lock in it's ease of use and ambidex.

Overload in Colorado


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## rackness (Sep 12, 2004)

i have had many knives over the years including benchmade, buck, cold steel, various victorinox, kershaw, columbia river, gerber, spyderco etc, etc, etc, etc and i have to say the best knife i have personally owned is my edc my microtech socom (non-auto). it exudes quality in every aspect of its construction. it is a liner lock that i would put up against any of locking mechanisms listed so far it is super solid. imho it is in a class above the likes of benchmade and many other companies out there. now i am not saying that it is the "best" because there are many knives out there and to claim it to be the "best" would be foolish as there are custom knives that would put my microtech to shame. so i would rephrase the topic to be "the best that i own" as it is obvious that benchmade are great knives but far from the best available. just my .02 /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleye11.gif


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## indenial (Sep 13, 2004)

[ QUOTE ]
Hmmm, from the above quote from Mr Talmadge, I would have bought a Benchmade 710HS or 806D2.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd agree with you if utility-defense had been my primary "mission". As frivolous as it may sound, aesthetic quality is higher on my list, among other things.


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## Joe Talmadge (Sep 13, 2004)

Yep, that's the way it should be! For the love of production perfection, simplicity of design, sheer cutting performance, etc., the Sebenza is the right choice for you. For hard use and defensive use, easier opening, longer blade, and (for my hands) more secure handle wins.


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## CCW (Sep 13, 2004)

Very interesting (and passionate) discussions here... Since this particular one hasn't mentioned yet, I present this for your good laughs.

About a month and a half ago, I posted a help request for a small pocket folder. I received many good leads and comments, and guess what I ended up.

Now I happily carry, in my pocket, a Xikar Elan. This one has MOP handle over some stainless steel frame (very thin), and sort of a frame lock (also very thin). The blade material is said to be Z60CDV14 stainless steel, which I never heard of before (BTW someone knows anything about this steel, please share your knowledge). On the blade, it says "built in Italy", whatever that means. By now, some of you are LOFLing...

The reasons why I picked this one. It is very small, just like I wanted, at 2.7" closed. Very light weight, very thin, almost not there, which is great. Rounded shape all around, real easy on my pocket. And this one does not look much of a knife to anybody, which is important for my surroundings. However, this was still a compromise. It is not as easy to open as I like, even though I am getting used to that after some practice. Factory sharpening was not all that great, I spent considerable time to resharpen the edge until usable. I have no idea how long the edge will hold (Again, please someone comment). That thin frame lock is practically a non-issue for what I am using this for, and the way I grip the knife puts my finger right on the locking mechanism so that I am not worried about the lock slipping off.

I agree with the someone's earlier comment that the best knife is the one you have when you need it. Since this is about the best I found that I can carry everyday, I should be REALLY happy... But I am NOT.

I guess I am still looking for that "The Ultimate Pocket Knife" for me. And for those defensive-tactical situations, I will just have to keep practicing my kicks...

ps: Sebenzas - I agree with everyone who say they are great. I now have 2 small regular ones, one in BG-42 and the other in Wonder Steel. Wish I could carry them, but I cannot.

pps: I like the frame locks for one simple reason, they are super simple. Speaking of parts count, hard to beat.


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## ErickThakrar (Sep 14, 2004)

Why can't you carry your Sebenzas? I believe they're perfectly legal to carry in California???


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## indenial (Sep 14, 2004)

Nothing is "perfectly" legal in my state. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif 

Kidding aside though, I agree with you. Maybe they're just too valuable/expensive to EDC? 

Personally I carry it clipped to my belt in a custom made sheath when I'm not working. I rarely have a need to actually use it, but it's a good conversation starter on the few occasions someone bothered to notice!


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## CCW (Sep 14, 2004)

Why can't I carry Sebenzas?

Not that it is illegal, it has much to do with political correctness. There's such thing called a CLM (career limiting move). Basically, it is my surroundings I have to pay attention. Since I really like my current settings, I better not ruin them.


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## js (Sep 17, 2004)

I own a Large Sebenza, and I have handled the BM AXIS 705 and 710, and I find the Sebbie to be every bit as comfortable to handle and sure of grip.

Plus, I find opening and closing the Sebbie to be simple and easy and smooth. Not as easy and as smooth as the AXIS lock, but still very nice.

I absolutely love my Sebenza and consider it to have been a real bargain. Just recently took a trip and flew, so I had to leave it behind, and I dearly missed it.

I plan on buying a Small Sebbie w/ wood next year sometime.

Fit and finish is excellent, yes, but so is everything else! I had the chance to own either the BM 710 or the Sebbie, and I chose the Sebbie hands down.

Just my $.02.


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