# Fire-Foxes FF4 Questions



## RichS (Jun 1, 2013)

In regards to the Fire-Foxes FF4, I've got a couple of questions for the experts:



Can I use the same AW protected 3100 li-ions I use in my FF3? I was thinking since it starts up in 40W mode they might work
Will they fit (I had to trim the springs on my FF3, but it worked)?
If they do work, will I still get the full power of the 60W mode, or would it be brighter running on IMRs?

I know there needs to be a few second delay when turning it off and back on. But once on, do you have to wait when cycling between modes or can you switch levels as quickly as you want without doing any damage to the bulb or light?

Thanks in advance!


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## BVH (Jun 1, 2013)

*Re: Fire-Foxes IV Questions*

Don't know about the FF4 battery carrier - whether larger or not. 

It's not a case of it being brighter on one cell or the other on 60-Watt mode. It will either light with full brightness or not light at all.

In one of the other FF4 threads, just yesterday someone got theirs and layed out the button sequence for switching modes. IIRC, they said something about having to turn the light off to get back to the 60-Watt mode once having left it.


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## Stereodude (Jun 2, 2013)

*Re: Fire-Foxes IV Questions*



BVH said:


> Don't know about the FF4 battery carrier - whether larger or not.


Lips said it was the same carrier as the FF3, or at the very least wasn't any larger.


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## one2tim (Jun 2, 2013)

*Re: Fire-Foxes IV Questions*

yes its same size as the FF3, already cut the springs and are using my AW 3100mah and 2600mah cells


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## jalal20 (Jun 2, 2013)

*Re: Fire-Foxes IV Questions*

what about switching between the 25 and 40W? do we also have to wait if we wanted to switch between those 2 as well?


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## RichS (Jun 2, 2013)

*Re: Fire-Foxes IV Questions*



one2tim said:


> yes its same size as the FF3, already cut the springs and are using my AW 3100mah and 2600mah cells


Great!! So no issues running it at 60W with those batts?


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## BVH (Jun 2, 2013)

*Re: Fire-Foxes IV Questions*

60 Watts at the lamp X's 25% for ballast consumption = 75 Watts rounded. 75 Watts / 14.8 Volts Nominal = 5 Amps, give or take


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## archimedes (Jun 2, 2013)

*Re: Fire-Foxes IV Questions*

... but won't it pull a whole lot more current (briefly) at strike ?

EDIT - ahh, I see that you can't start up in "turbo" ...


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## RichS (Jun 2, 2013)

*Re: Fire-Foxes IV Questions*



BVH said:


> 60 Watts at the lamp X's 25% for ballast consumption = 75 Watts rounded. 75 Watts / 14.8 Volts Nominal = 5 Amps, give or take



Awesome, thanks for the info!


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## KevinL (Jun 27, 2013)

OMG, this is why I should not be allowed to read the HID forum any more. I stumble in here after so many years away and what do I come across but a 6k lumen monster that was the same price as the Mag2HID I bought all those years ago (500 lumens, 8x AA, 10W Welch Allyn HID). SO TEMPTED. 

Wouldn't IMR cells be safer at that power draw? 5 amps from conventional ICR Li-cobalt seems like an awful lot.


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## RichS (Jun 28, 2013)

KevinL said:


> OMG, this is why I should not be allowed to read the HID forum any more. I stumble in here after so many years away and what do I come across but a 6k lumen monster that was the same price as the Mag2HID I bought all those years ago (500 lumens, 8x AA, 10W Welch Allyn HID). SO TEMPTED.
> 
> Wouldn't IMR cells be safer at that power draw? 5 amps from conventional ICR Li-cobalt seems like an awful lot.



I'm right there with you Kevin...I've not been around as long as you, but I still remember when the king of the mountain was the Mag ROP - wasn't that your design??

I hear what your saying about the 5 amps w/ li-ions, but considering you can get 3100mAH li-ions (or even 3400), they can sustain 6.2A and still be at 2C.. I know a lot of folks pushed below 2C in the past for incan mods pretty regularly..

But yes, this relatively tiny flashlight putting out 6,000+ lumens is just insane...


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## LuxLuthor (Jun 28, 2013)

KevinL said:


> OMG, this is why I should not be allowed to read the HID forum any more. I stumble in here after so many years away and what do I come across but a 6k lumen monster that was the same price as the Mag2HID I bought all those years ago (500 lumens, 8x AA, 10W Welch Allyn HID). SO TEMPTED.
> 
> Wouldn't IMR cells be safer at that power draw? 5 amps from conventional ICR Li-cobalt seems like an awful lot.



As Rich just said, you are correct that IMR cells would laugh at a light sucking 5-10 amps out of it. Only down side is the mAh reduction of IMR. They give up their juice readily, but have less to give. If you have an extra battery carrier, and easy way to recharge (IMR's can be charged at higher C rates than Lithium Cobalt cells--like the Panasonics), nothing wrong with going that way. If I was selling the FF lights, I would make a statement for legal protection that people ONLY use IMR in them. Protected LiCo (Like AW's black cells) are another decent choice, but requires spring cutting--and if you are smart, dremel down the sharp edge, and fold it under.


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## KevinL (Jun 29, 2013)

RichS said:


> I'm right there with you Kevin...I've not been around as long as you, but I still remember when the king of the mountain was the Mag ROP - wasn't that your design??
> 
> I hear what your saying about the 5 amps w/ li-ions, but considering you can get 3100mAH li-ions (or even 3400), they can sustain 6.2A and still be at 2C.. I know a lot of folks pushed below 2C in the past for incan mods pretty regularly..
> 
> But yes, this relatively tiny flashlight putting out 6,000+ lumens is just insane...



Haha yes  and in the end I moved the 2 lithium version to IMR for much better performance and brightness - and safety. As I calculated in those days, it would be safe to operate a ICR ROP right at the edge of the 2C performance envelope, using top notch 2200mAH Grade A cells, for 2.2x2 = 4.4A, with the bulb pulling 4.2. 

The ROP has moved on though, in fact I just sold my last one with all its supplies. 800 OTF? Sure, my 1x18650 PD32 UE with XML can do that nowadays. Time changes so much. BTW, it really has been that long 

So tempted to buy the FF4 even though I have no real use or purpose for it. I have a TK75 and it is a practical light, I drive it at 1.1K lumens most of the time (high, not turbo 2.6K). 



LuxLuthor said:


> As Rich just said, you are correct that IMR cells would laugh at a light sucking 5-10 amps out of it. Only down side is the mAh reduction of IMR. They give up their juice readily, but have less to give. If you have an extra battery carrier, and easy way to recharge (IMR's can be charged at higher C rates than Lithium Cobalt cells--like the Panasonics), nothing wrong with going that way. If I was selling the FF lights, I would make a statement for legal protection that people ONLY use IMR in them. Protected LiCo (Like AW's black cells) are another decent choice, but requires spring cutting--and if you are smart, dremel down the sharp edge, and fold it under.



True that, although the FF4 looks like it shouldn't be run for extended periods of time. It's more of a fun light.. it is awesome, but it doesn't have the everyday practicality of other lights - not that there is anything wrong with that really! (coming from someone who has owned tremendously impractical but amazingly fun things like the USL.. one does not simply EDC a USL )


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## RichS (Jul 1, 2013)

KevinL said:


> True that, although the FF4 looks like it shouldn't be run for extended periods of time. It's more of a fun light.. it is awesome, but it doesn't have the everyday practicality of other lights - not that there is anything wrong with that really! (coming from someone who has owned tremendously impractical but amazingly fun things like the USL.. one does not simply EDC a USL )



Have to disagree with you on that point Kevin. The FF4 has 3 user-switchable levels - 24W, 40W, and 60W. You can run it on 24W constantly, and get a nice 2,000 lumens for the life of the batteries. I'm guessing you'd get a good 75 minutes at that level. 2,000 lumens of throwy light for 75 minutes is definitely useful in my opinion. I used the FF3 for long runs on night hikes when camping, and it did great, even at 40W. It did get warm and ultimately kicked down to 24W. The FF4 is even more practicaly IMO because you can keep it cooler running at 24W, kicking it up to 40W or 60W momentarily and then right back down to 24W to keep it relatively cool.

Also, they really beefed up this light to absorb more heat vs. the FF3, which did get hot quick at 40W. 

Got to give them credit - they truly made an insanely FUN light while making it a truly practical light at the same time. Is the FF4 the best of both worlds? YES!!


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## Bumble (Jul 1, 2013)

Hi, just browsing through the thread... i would of thought the Panasonic NCR18650PD 2900mAH would be a good battery for the FF4 

can handle a 10 amp discharge..


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## LuxLuthor (Jul 13, 2013)

Bumble said:


> Hi, just browsing through the thread... i would of thought the Panasonic NCR18650PD 2900mAH would be a good battery for the FF4
> 
> can handle a 10 amp discharge..



Some are using protected "Pannies" but the FF3/FF4 battery carrier is not really long enough to do it easily--you have to cut the springs, dremel the cut edge & bend it inwards so it doesn't slice the label. As was discussed earlier in this or the other FF4 thread, most of us are using the NCR18650B because of the 3400mAh additional capacity. This example is a "poor man's" protection circuit added externally that I just saw on Amazon, but somewhat mixed reviews and didn't see the max current protection limit listed. 

This light requires above average awareness of proper Lithium Cobalt battery management. We (the proverbial wise "CPF Geek") use DMM's and smart/hobby chargers to safely charge our Li-Ion cells which is when most (but not all) safety issues occur. As far as someone overdischarging their cells and/or heating their light up to dangerous levels, a certain measure of common sense is required (in addition to the FF4 thermal protection setting). Could someone blow themselves up who should not be using this light? That's like asking if anything could go wrong if firecrackers, M-80's, Cherry Bombs are made available to the general public for idle recreation.


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## tatasal (Jul 13, 2013)

Bumble said:


> Hi, just browsing through the thread... i would of thought the Panasonic NCR18650PD 2900mAH would be a good battery for the FF4
> 
> can handle a 10 amp discharge..



I use the Panasonic NCR-PDs for my FF4 too. Before using, as an added safety measure, I had its all discharge-capacity checked in my hobby charger when it arrived. They were within 37mah of each other. I had two complete cycles already and everytime I check the voltages of the 4 cells anytime before depletion, they always are within .01V of each other.


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