# Christmas Road Trip, never driven in snowy areas, advice please



## Illum (Dec 8, 2009)

We will be making a christmas drive to the Grand Canyons from Florida sometime around the 20th of December and visiting national parks along the way. We are going as a family of four, loaded with supplies in a 2008 Hondai Santa Fe, FWD only. I have no experience driving in snowing areas, where there may be ice. My dad, my brother, and me will be taking turns driving. 

Only thing I know is antifreeze for windshield wipers and cat litter for traction...but thats it. The weather looks less than nifty but all the reservations were made months before hand and and road/traffic conditions have already been printed, tacked, and highlighted. We will stay mainly on Interstate 10 until we hit New Mexico. Weather reports yesterday mentioned snow in the Houston area and places above, we expect to touch snowy areas approximately 4 days into the trip. 

I am limited in my choice of lights, but what I'll be in my bag is a two E2Ls, two L4-MCEs [and a loaded SC3, don't expect to use the MCEs], and two M6s, one for MN15 and one for KL6 as well as a waterproof strobelight. Since I normally use rechargeables at home I have no additional spares on me and too late in the season to order:green:

Do I need to invest in snow tires? the current set has been runniing for a little over 10K miles with essentially no wear. 

Any advice from those experienced northerners might be a lifesaver


----------



## mikeinrancho (Dec 8, 2009)

I'm not gonna be much help, since I'm from So. Cal and have little snow driving experience - so why would I reply? But, I went to the Grand Canyon last year, through Williams, AZ, then on to Moab and then Arches and Bryce and Zion the week between Christmas and New Years. We were in a 4WD Xterra (stock tires - semi all terrain) and never once had a problem on the roads - which were mostly clear for us anyway. We did venture off onto non-plowed roads and still had no problems, but that was with 4WD. The point of my post is that that trip was one of the best road trips we have ever been on - and we go off twice a year. Beautiful country, you are going to love it. We had been to all those places before, but never in the winter with all the snow. Temperatures did get down below zero - never above freezing - but it was fantastic. We are actually thinking about going on the same route again in 3 weeks. My advice - don't drive at night - you'll miss awesome scenery and the roads hide all their nasty stuff in the dark.

Anyway... back on topic.


----------



## matrixshaman (Dec 8, 2009)

I spent a lot of time in snow country up North and as a serious skier in the past I have seen a lot of new snow drivers having problems. Forget snow tires IMO they do little to help and will be bad for general driving in non-snow conditions. Get chains for your front tires if you have front wheel drive. Learn how to put them on ahead of time and don't hesitate to put them on as soon as you start slipping. There can be ice under snow and black ice is something you really don't want to experience. GO SLOW is primary when things start snowing. If it starts getting real heavy try to find a place to get off the road where you can hang out a while - fast food places, motel or whatever. There may be other crazies trying to continue and you need to remind yourself you are not experienced nor crazy. I've driven everything from rear wheel drive cars and 4WD to motorcycles to 18 wheelers in snow and it's really not something you want to take chances with. Make sure you know the weather conditions - maybe a portable weather radio and have a map or GPS unit so you can plan where to get off the road ahead of time if things start to get really bad. I'd take some space blankets along in case you really get caught off guard or end up in a traffic jam on a major freeway where they have stopped traffic due to bad weather. A good emergency pack with other items would be very smart too. 
A couple other thoughts - if you find you are suddenly in heavy snow on a freeway and can get behind an 18 wheeler and stay back a safe distance this is a fairly good strategy. The trucker can see further ahead than cars and he also knows he cannot stop as fast as a car so unless he is crazy and going too fast it's a good vehicle to stay behind. The other thing about that strategy is that if he should hit anything it's not likely he will be suddenly stopped due to the trucks inertia (most trucks are loaded and full loads mean 80,000 pounds) so you'll still have time to stop. If you are behind a car that runs into something you may not have a lot of time to stop. Good luck and be safe.


----------



## T0RN4D0 (Dec 8, 2009)

Be very very carefull without snow tyres, if you hit some uncleaned roads. The threads on winter tyres are designed to clean themselves, and offer much better performance on snow. I don't know how the roads are cleaned in the US, but here main road are plowed, salted and sanded when there is snow, so you can pull it off with normal tyres but you must be carefull, easy on the turns and be avare that you wont be able to stop very fast (safety distance). 

Maybe you could buy some tyre chains tho, if you expect to hit any heavy snow. Those should be alot cheaper then a set of winter tyres, and for the few miles you might need it, they will probably get the job done.


----------



## LED_Thrift (Dec 8, 2009)

The advice given above about going slow is definately very good advice. It covers a multitude of sins. 

If your FWD has "All-Season" tires, [preferably radials] you should be fine in all but the deepest snow. Tires have an "M & S" rating moulded right into the sidewall if they are rated for mud & snow, so it's easy for you to check your tires. It's not uncommon for tires to be "M & S" rated even though they aren't "snow tires". 

Good luck on your trip. Watching Ken Burn's series on the National Parks has given me the itch to get to those western parks also.


----------



## Cataract (Dec 8, 2009)

I'm from Canada (Montreal) and work on the road, so I know quite a bit about driving in the snow. On the other hand, I don't have any idea how conditions might look like in the region you're going, but my guess is it won't likely be much different or worse than here. 

Good snow tires do make a big difference in snow. Where ice is concerned, the difference will vary greatly from one brand to the next and one model to the next. If you're not spending a whole season there, you could go by with a brand new set of all-season tires (but snow and ice tires are still the best). Summer tires are really not recommendable and your tiress sound like they have a hard sole, which meand they might not be very recommendable. Chains might work for snow, but won't help on ice.

Even if the name suggests it, snow and ice tires are not impervious. They only make it better to a certain degree in snow, but allow you more traction on ice (even if just a bit, which is usually enough to be able to get somewhere without being stuck). Driving in loose snow isn't all that bad; just reduce your speed and give yourself extra time to stop or to slow down. there are a variety of tactics for emergency breaking in snow, which vary greatly on the situation and the type of snow. You should be able to find something on the internet with a little research.

ALWAYS watch out for intersection at stops and street lights: too many people lock up their wheels (or spin them), which causes ice to form exactly where you need to stop. My rule of thumb is to slow down real early, and come to the intersection so slow that I know that even with my wheels lock up, I'll stop in time. 

Ice is the worst ennemy. It sometines is very hard to judge if there is ice and how slippery it is if you are driving in a straight line and suddenly hit a patch. Driving in a straight line doesn't give you any judgment of how slippery it is. To differenciate snow from snow that was packed into ice is relatively simple: if it reflects any light, it is ice (unless the snow has melted) and you need to be more than extra careful. If the road seems smoother than usual (you can't see any dimples) you're on a skating rink grade ice patch. IF the road is totally black although you're headlights are pretty strong, that is the worst of all: black ice. 

The smoother the ice surface, the more deadly (breaking or turning have almost no effect). Always keep your cool and always drive much slower in these conditions. If breaking hard does nothing, break only enough to slow down. Pumping the brakes will help on rougher ice patches, but not by much. 

The BEST EVER strategy to drive past an ice patch is to keep your tires on the side of the road where there actually is snow (if there is any).Snow has much better traction, even if it feels like you need more gas to keep your speed constant. 

One trick I use every now and then, when there's noboy around, is to brake and see how much braking I can use before the wheels lock up. That always gives me an idea of how bad it is and how slow I should be going. 

CURVES: these are the times where you should drive even slowest if there is any ice at all. Once you start sliding sideways, you'll only stop on a hard object, or with any luck, on a snow patch or snow bank.

OTHER PEOPLE: as any human, every single year it starts to snow, people act like they have never ever seen it. Some drive like it's summer, others drive like they just lost a wheel. Keep your distances clear on all sides, you can't trust anyone. Following a truck IS generally a good Idea, not so much because the driver can see further, but there is a very good chance HE knows what to expect. On the plus side, if there IS a pile-up ahead, he just might open up more room for you to stop.

ACCESSORIES: have the Anti-freeze in your radiator checked so it will not freeze at the temperatures you might face. Buy anti-freeze windshield washer and always have a spare bottle in the trunk. Fill up your windshield washer reservoir every time you put gas or even more often. Get a cheap ice scraper and make sure you have good visibility on all sides, including mirrors and remove all snow accumulation from your car before you go out there... there is nothing worse than those *******s that look like a moving cloud of invisibility, spreading haze to all around.


There isn't much snow here yet, so I'm guessing that conditions are even better down south, but so far the snow we've had here has turned into ice really fast (Ive seen one idiot eat the curb on both sides of the highway exit at 30 MPH). Since I have no idea what you'll be facing, you should call to your destination and ask what to expect at this time of year. Maybe they're not expecting anything more than melting snow... who knows...

Driving in the winter isn't deadly if you have a little common sense and drive carefully. The biggest danger is those who don't...
Hope this helps.


----------



## Illum (Dec 8, 2009)

Cataract said:


> I'm from Canada (Montreal) and work on the road, so I know quite a bit about driving in the snow.


 
just what I wanted to hear



> ALWAYS watch out for intersection at stops and street lights: too many people lock up their wheels (or spin them), which causes ice to form exactly where you need to stop. My rule of thumb is to slow down real early, and come to the intersection so slow that I know that even with my wheels lock up, I'll stop in time.



:thanks: for the advice



> Ice is the worst ennemy. It sometines is very hard to judge if there is ice and how slippery it is if you are driving in a straight line and suddenly hit a patch. Driving in a straight line doesn't give you any judgment of how slippery it is. To differenciate snow from snow that was packed into ice is relatively simple: if it reflects any light, it is ice (unless the snow has melted) and you need to be more than extra careful. If the road seems smoother than usual (you can't see any dimples) you're on a skating rink grade ice patch. IF the road is totally black although you're headlights are pretty strong, that is the worst of all: black ice.





> The BEST EVER strategy to drive past an ice patch is to keep your tires on the side of the road where there actually is snow (if there is any).Snow has much better traction, even if it feels like you need more gas to keep your speed constant.



So the best way is to drive halfway on the shoulder where one tires churning snow and occasionally snake around to break the straight line?



> OTHER PEOPLE: as any human, every single year it starts to snow, people act like they have never ever seen it. Some drive like it's summer, others drive like they just lost a wheel.



okay, now I'm really scared :duck:




mikeinrancho said:


> The point of my post is that that trip was one of the best road trips we have ever been on



We've driven to Connecticut several times, once to Indiana, once to Texas...but we've never taken road trips in the winter

matrixshaman, we're trying to be as prepared as we can on stop-overs so that hopefully won't be an issue. now highway closures and finding detours might be an issue. Dad says not to worry but I'm less optimistic on that. 

How slow is slow if your on an interstate? Like driving in rain, too slow could actually be dangerous.

heat loss is what I'm most concerned with. Mom's sensitivity to cold is stronger than the rest of us, I have space blankets on hand so thats not an issue.



matrixshaman said:


> A couple other thoughts - if you find you are suddenly in heavy snow on a freeway and can get behind an 18 wheeler and stay back a safe distance this is a fairly good strategy. The trucker can see further ahead than cars and he also knows he cannot stop as fast as a car so unless he is crazy and going too fast it's a good vehicle to stay behind. The other thing about that strategy is that if he should hit anything it's not likely he will be suddenly stopped due to the trucks inertia (most trucks are loaded and full loads mean 80,000 pounds) so you'll still have time to stop. If you are behind a car that runs into something you may not have a lot of time to stop. Good luck and be safe.



Good strategy indeed!

Finding tire chains in FL might pose an issue:thinking:
I'll see if I can consult some mudding friends where to find such things in stores


----------



## MorePower (Dec 8, 2009)

It's really pretty simple:

1. Drive slowly if you aren't comfortable with road conditions.
2. Don't try to make sudden, sharp turns if you can help it.

All 3 trim levels of the 2008 Santa Fe have the 3 most important features someone who is not used to driving in snowy conditions should have; *ABS* (helps you stop), *traction control* (helps you get moving), and *stability control* (helps prevent spinouts).

Just take it easy if the road gets slippery and you should be fine.

I've driven in Wisconsin winters for many years; this is the first year I'll have a car that has any of those features. I finally have ABS, but no traction or stability control. Haven't crashed yet, knock on wood.


Here's a link to various state laws as they pertain to tire chain usage.


----------



## jamesmtl514 (Dec 8, 2009)

Some really good advice so far. If you need to pay special attention to anyones thoughts it's those of a Montrealer, (Maritimer's too). We have some ridiculous weather here and have learned to cope with it.

As mentioned; drive safe and stay alert. Don't be scared to pull over if you feel you're unprepared for the drive ahead. It's a lot more comfortable to be in a warm motel room than in the ditch. 

Also don't be too scared, millions of people drive on this white stuff daily and are fine. Have a great trip.


----------



## sawlight (Dec 8, 2009)

All season radials are about as good as anything anymore, unless you get uber agressive tires. A few highways are closed or closing, and several are requiring snow chains, I'd recomend a set if you are leaving soon, this storm should blow over in the next 48 hours.
Space blankets are good, I like flanel myself, take water, plenty of water, snacks or protien bars, just enough for 24hrs is good.
SLOW SLOW AND SLOWER!! Watch, you wil have people pass you like you are sitting still, you will think you can drive that fast, until you pass them siting in the ditch a mile down the road! Don't get in a hurry, you will get there when you get there, bu alive that way! Following a semi can be good, but some of them even like to go faster than I do!
Don't put much faith in the ABS, you will still skid and slip and spin and put it in the ditch jus as fast as anybody else!If you start to skid while breaking and know you can't stop, let off the brakes and point it in a safe direction then try again. Don't "ride out" a skid keeping the brakes locked up, let up and try to steer the car.
4wd can be nice, but it just gets you going faster and makes you feel safer. It wont help you stop any better! 
Go slow, take your time and if you don't like it, get off the road!


----------



## yazzur (Dec 8, 2009)

"How slow is slow if your on an interstate? Like driving in rain, too slow could actually be dangerous."

You can't really drive too slow if you're courteous - If there are a bunch of cars lined up behind you, find a place to turn off. 

I've been driving my whole life in snow belts, 5 or 6 months of snow every year for 40 year. A couple hints: *ALWAYS* turn your lights on in snowy conditions. *Signal* way in advance of a turn. Brake, turn, and accelerate gently. I was taught to drive in the snow like you've got a raw egg under your foot.

It's not bad driving in snow - just take your time - hey, it's a vacation, right?


----------



## Launch Mini (Dec 8, 2009)

change your windshield washer fluid to a winter rated ( ie below freezing).
You will need plenty of this for the slush thrown from other cars passing.
Might even want to take a spare jug along.
Take some "wet wipes", and when you stop, clean your headlights with them. Not a bad idea to do your tail lights too. See & Be Seen.
Remember AWD does not help you stop in the snow. Only helps you get going.


----------



## stevep (Dec 8, 2009)

Get some chains!
I was driving in snow yesterday and the Hwy patrol closed the road to vehicles without chains or 4WD/snow tires.

I was driving my mom's car with summer tires and no chains,the road was drivable.The HP closed the road because they have to deal with all the people that are poor drivers.

You need to be prepared to be caught on a road that gets closed.I don't think that much of space blankets.An opened rectangular sleeping bag would be much better for your passengers. I would have some source of heat,like candles in a coffee can.

Don't run the gas tank low in snow country,being able to idle the engine for heat may be important.
Know when to change your schedule for safety.You should stop driving early enough to be able to get a room before the all book up,that happen quickly when the road gets closed.
It starts getting slick in the afternoon on a sunny day.Black ice is dangerous,a car can spin into your lane.
Good planning and common sense will give you a safe trip.


----------



## MarNav1 (Dec 8, 2009)

All the above. Snacks, candy bars etc. Water. Take it easy.


----------



## Mjolnir (Dec 8, 2009)

I'm not really sure why so many people are suggesting chains... Interstate 10 is almost as far south as you can get in the US. I live in the Northeast, and I rarely ever see anyone with chains, except for snow plows. All weather tires should be fine; I doubt that your Hyundai SUV is equipped with higher performance summer tires. I seriously doubt that Texas or New Mexico will have any serious (for around here anyways) amounts of snow. It seems like you should only be seeing a couple of inches.

I see that people are saying you should always go slow, but this isn't the case 100% of the time. If you need to get up a steep road with snow on it, you need to go _fast_. If you don't, then you simple won't make it up the hill and will slide back down. Going too fast uphill isn't an issue, since gravity will slow you down very quickly.(of course, you shouldn't go fast around turns though). Again, I doubt you will see many steep roads that are covered with snow, so this might not be an issue, especially that far south.
If your wheels spin with rear wheel drive, you will fishtail. If they spin with front wheel drive, you might not notice it if you haven't driven in snow before. You should start up slow to reduce wheelspin, or you won't be able to start up at all (if there is enough snow). 
You want to avoid locking the wheels or skidding, as this will make it essentially impossible to turn and avoid anything. Stop gradually and slowly so you have the time and traction to avoid potential obstacles.


----------



## Kestrel (Dec 8, 2009)

matrixshaman said:


> Forget snow tires IMO they do little to help and will be bad for general driving in non-snow conditions.
> Get chains for your front tires if you have front wheel drive. Learn how to put them on ahead of time and don't hesitate to put them on as soon as you start slipping.
> GO SLOW is primary when things start snowing. If it starts getting real heavy try to find a place to get off the road where you can hang out a while - fast food places, motel or whatever. There may be other crazies trying to continue and you need to remind yourself you are not experienced nor crazy.
> I'd take some space blankets along in case you really get caught off guard or end up in a traffic jam on a major freeway where they have stopped traffic due to bad weather. A good emergency pack with other items would be very smart too.


All of the above is good. I grew up in Alaska then moved to New Mexico - heavy chains have gotten me out of very tough spots but they are brutal - much slimmer *cable chains* are the way to go IMO for for difficult conditions on highways.

Go slow and don't be afraid to take some time off when the conditions are very bad. Allocate an extra day so you can 'spend' it & not travel, to avoid the worst driving if necessary. Take extra books to read and a good thermos.

This is a good opportunity to create a survival pack to stash in the car - a daypack containing extra clothing, energy bars, water, etc. Worst comes to worst, you've got the capability & tools to hike out of an emergency.

Take care & have fun,


----------



## John_Galt (Dec 8, 2009)

First of all, relax. Driving when you're stressed out is just going to make the trip worse, snow or not.

My advice... I don't drive, but both of my parents have drilled this into my head since I started paying attention to what they do...
Drive slowly. If you would be driving slowly in good weather, drive even slower in bad.
Be careful and pay attention. Be aware of other vehicles around you, especially large trucks. 
If you do not feel comfortable driving somewhere, do not feel bad pulling over to the side of the road and trying to find another route.

Pack some emergency supplies into the PASSENGER compartment. Not the trunk. If you get stuck, you may not be able to access the trunk for a variety of reasons. Pack at least two blankets, one for the front passengers, and one for the ones in the back. If you think your route would take you along a road that is not heavily traveled, maybe pack some of those heater packs for gloves and feet. A little food and drink would also help.


----------



## Illum (Dec 8, 2009)

sawlight said:


> SLOW SLOW AND SLOWER!! Watch, you wil have people pass you like you are sitting still, you will think you can drive that fast, until you pass them siting in the ditch a mile down the road! Don't get in a hurry, you will get there when you get there, bu alive that way! Following a semi can be good, but some of them even like to go faster than I do!



Down here patience is a virtue, something tells me up there patience is an inner tube



Mjolnir said:


> I'm not really sure why so many people are suggesting chains... Interstate 10 is almost as far south as you can get in the US.



Its best to be overprepared



> I see that people are saying you should always go slow, but this isn't the case 100% of the time. If you need to get up a steep road with snow on it, you need to go _fast_. If you don't, then you simple won't make it up the hill and will slide back down. Going too fast uphill isn't an issue, since gravity will slow you down very quickly.(of course, you shouldn't go fast around turns though). Again, I doubt you will see many steep roads that are covered with snow, so this might not be an issue, especially that far south.



aye, there's no severe increase or decreases in altitude that could facilitate an incline as such, does it does remind me of visiting SC



> If they spin with front wheel drive, you might not notice it if you haven't driven in snow before. You should _*start up slow*_ to reduce wheelspin, or you won't be able to start up at all (if there is enough snow).
> You want to *avoid locking the wheels or skidding*, as this will make it essentially impossible to turn and avoid anything. *Stop gradually* and slowly so you have the time and traction to avoid potential obstacles.



Good info, :thanks:

dad's thought is that major highways that are populated by alot of cars there's a lesser chance we'll actually get stuck in snow.



yazzur said:


> It's not bad driving in snow - just take your time - hey, it's a vacation, right?



well, the issue with booking hotels early is giving yourself some deadlines to work with. before grand canyon there's going be be a couple national parks we'll be in, but we'll end up in Grand Canyon on Christmas...or bust



John_Galt said:


> If you would be driving slowly in good weather, drive even slower in bad.
> Be careful and pay attention. Be aware of other vehicles around you, especially large trucks.
> If you do not feel comfortable driving somewhere, do not feel bad pulling over to the side of the road and trying to find another route.
> 
> Pack some emergency supplies into the PASSENGER compartment. Not the trunk. If you get stuck, you may not be able to access the trunk for a variety of reasons. Pack at least two blankets, one for the front passengers, and one for the ones in the back. If you think your route would take you along a road that is not heavily traveled, maybe pack some of those heater packs for gloves and feet. A little food and drink would also help.



My driving habits sucks...
I'm 22 years old, but I had a classmate who was driving behind me and later commented that he thought I was an old man pushing on the gas pedal with the cane...aka too slow for his comfort. I get 21mpg out of an SUV, I'm not complaining

Good thinking on the storage measures, 

:wow: I need to jot all this down
We're scheduled to depart in two weeks. I'll have to finish my final exams and get the car in for an inspection/oil change before we can start loading


----------



## mdocod (Dec 8, 2009)

If you are lucky enough (or unlucky enough, depending on your point of view) to actually see snow on the road on your trip that far south. My recomendation is to find a mostly empty parking lot somewhere and give yourself a 5-10 minute crash course in low friction driving. Force yourself into a few low speed side-ways skids with the hand-brake and learn how to turn INTO that skid and control the direction of the vehicle. Do this until you can reliably feel the point where the rear tires re-gain traction, and you are instinctively steering "out" of that skid when those tires grab traction so as to avoid an over-correction. Getting the feel for this type of skid alone will cover a large majority of situations that may arise. The other thing you want to experiment with, is to lock up all 4 wheels (or try to, you have ABS, so this may not be possible). Jab the breaks while cruising along in that open parking lot and see how your vehicle with it's ABS is going to treat the situation. You've likely never had the ABS system kick in, and if that's the case, experiencing it for the first time could startle you in the heat of the moment. Many ABS systems will put a physical pulsating through the brake pedal as you try to apply it. You want to know what this feels like before it happens in a sticky situation. 

Highway driving in slushy icy conditions can lead to unexpected and sudden skids as your tires catch "ruts" created by heavier vehicles (those ruts often start out as slush and snow and then freeze into ice). Your front tires will often have the traction to climb over those ruts but your rear tires will often start sliding along inside the rut, throwing the car into a sideways skid. You need to be ready to steer into that skid somewhat instinctively, and, here's an even tougher one to learn: Use the accelerator, NOT the brakes, to correct for a skid like this. (not always the best idea, but if you are looking out your side window to see where you are going, you have a decision to make, do a 180, maybe 360/540 etc etc, or use the accelerator and try to bring that spin to a stop at 90 degrees). 

Chains: No, Avoid chains for long highway trips. Your shocks, ball-joints, tie-rod ends, control arm bushings, and pretty much every bolt and nut holding the car together will thank you. Chains are good for 3 things: rear wheel drive vehicles that must go out on a slick day, mud/snow on back-country trails that are dangerous (cliffs etc) usually on a 4x4, and special built chains for rock crawling. 

Cable: Optional, probably unnecessary. You might swing into a wallyworld as you work your way west. You can get Cables at most wall-marts that are in snow-country for pretty cheap. 

Front wheel drive sedans and crossovers can, with proper driving technique, (threshold traction driving), operate on almost any major road or highway in the country provided the depth of snow doesn't over-come the clearance of the vehicle by too much. This is without chains or cables. Cables/chains on the front wheels of a front wheel drive will increase the useful accelerating traction on ice/snow/snow-pack to a level very close to that of an all-wheel or 4-wheel drive that does not have cables/chains. 

-----

The biggest problem with driving on ice and snow for most people is keeping themselves collected when things don't go according to plan. If you are in the driver seat, remember, until the vehicle comes to a stop, YOU are DRIVING. As much as I love watching people take their hands off the steering wheel and cover their eyes while they scream bloody murder and pray, I must point out, that this strategy does not usually generate positive results. 

-Eric


----------



## mdocod (Dec 8, 2009)

speaking of low friction driving... The whole region here is frozen over... I'm going to go deliver pizzas now


----------



## LukeA (Dec 8, 2009)

You will have a damn hard time finding snow that will accumulate on an Interstate, especially at that latitude. You won't have any problems with this trip unless the National Park you're visiting is Yellowstone or Glacier.

I also HIGHLY suggest an Aux In for the car's stereo, because I hate country music.


----------



## mikeinrancho (Dec 8, 2009)

mdocod said:


> If you are lucky enough (or unlucky enough, depending on your point of view) to actually see snow on the road on your trip that far south.



Oh... there's a good chance of seeing snow. This is last year a couple days after Christmas in Williams, AZ, about 55 miles south of the Grand Canyon. It was -4 degress in the morning when we left heading north towards the canyon. 







Not a lot of snow in the park:






But... this is leaving the park heading east:






No problem driving on the stuff (following all the suggestions above)... we only slid around when we wanted to.


----------



## Vinniec5 (Dec 8, 2009)

I'd carry an extra set of wiperblades for the car as well as an asst of fuses/ electrical tape/duct tape and if you have room a gal of premixed coolant for your car. Nothing like having a wiper blade decide to go on vacation by ittself and your stuck watching the wipers scratch their way into your wallet.


----------



## RocketTomato (Dec 8, 2009)

Illum said:


> How slow is slow if your on an interstate? Like driving in rain, too slow could actually be dangerous.



Go as slow as you need. If there is snow falling and the highway is covered in snow and ice, you might end up going as slow as 10-20 mph on a major highway. 

One thing I have not seen mentioned is the need for a good inexpensive snow brush (and gloves). Make sure to keep your headlights and taillights clear of snow. I recommend clearing all the snow off your car before driving.

If the local weather stations report a rainstorm turning to ice, I would avoid driving during and immediately after the storm, if at all possible until it has been cleared up. Also avoid driving if they forecast a major blizzard hitting the area.


----------



## Oddjob (Dec 8, 2009)

Slow and steady hasn't failed me in 23 years.


----------



## funkymonkey1111 (Dec 8, 2009)

1. make sure your cat litter isn't the clay kind, otherwise, it will decrease your traction. sand is better. if stuck, you can always try to use your floormats for traction under the tires.

2. a shovel can come in hand to move snow if you're stuck.

3. extra washer fluid is a must. if you run into a post snow melt, you will not believe the amount of fluid you will go to--you will literally be giving a squirt every few minutes. 

4. also, be sure to keep your headlights cleaned. road grime after a snow can really obscure the headlight's throw. ever seen those little wipers or washer jets on headlights in european cars? they're there for a reason.

5. don't take any shortcuts if you don't know where you're going. remember that CNET editor a few years ago? trying to save some time cost him his life. 

6. you might try to get some frameless wipers like bosch icons or Valeo Ultimates (from tirerack). snow and ice can accumulate in the frames of old-timey wipers. "winter" wipers have a plastic cover on them to keep this ice out, but the frameless wipers are superior.


----------



## nitesky (Dec 8, 2009)

A CB can still be useful. One has helped me route around a couple of weather related traffic snarls.


----------



## LED_Thrift (Dec 8, 2009)

funkymonkey1111 said:


> ...2. a shovel can come in hand to move snow if you're stuck.


Or, being a CPF'er, you can take an incan hotwire & some extra cells and melt your way out!


----------



## KD5XB (Dec 9, 2009)

Mikeinrancho is absolutely right -- you probably WILL see snow once you get up to I-40. All the folks who have posted that it doesn't snow that far south haven't been watching the weather reports, either -- it snowed a LOT in El Paso (on I-10) just last week, and Flagstaff, Arizona (on I-40) is usually the first place to get snow -- due to the elevation.

After saying all that, let me reinforce the one most important thing about driving in snow -- *DON'T GET IN A HURRY!* You might get up to speed easily, but you sure can't stop easily! Take your time and you should be fine.

Pack some "survival equipment", too -- blankets (REAL ones, not "space blankets"), maybe a pillow or two -- drinking water, something to eat (granola or energy bars are pretty good). Take some headgear in case you have to get out in the cold. A little shovel can help you get "unstuck".

Here's my daily driver -- and here's what I was driving a few years ago. Note the background in the second picture -- I see a bit of snow now and then and I HATE IT. Sure wish I could drive down in, say, Florida!


----------



## LuxLuthor (Dec 9, 2009)

Lots of good information, but I think mdocod's post #19 hit the most important issues. I have a lot of experience driving on snow, and actually love driving on the snow. Fresh snow, packed snow, non-ice covered snow actually gives quite a bit of traction. 

I agree on forgetting the chains--especially on any significant highway distance. Only times I ever needed them was driving in the mountains to various ski resorts...and with heavy snows, they do enforce 4WD or chains. I would take them off as soon as I could when using them.

The problem is ice, freezing rain/sleet, until the road crews get their sand/salt on them...especially notorious is the early icing on bridges (from crosswind). Also the shining sun melts the top covering of snow which is not a big deal driving in....but then the sun goes down, temp drops, and the nice snow becomes ice. Generally, don't drive in such conditions after sunset/night.

Learning how your car handles in a large parking lot makes all the difference in giving confidence. Learning the "drive in direction of skid," gentle pumping of brakes, using lower gears is best discovered where you have safe control.

As far as all the survival advice, rations, emergency blankets, etc. etc., know what you are driving into, and none of that is needed. That was advice for an older generation. Highways are generally well maintained, and other than mountain avalanches, with cell phones, etc. you are not going to have any suvival problem. Your problem will be from other idiot/drunk/stoned drivers.

Know the weather forecast. Don't drive into a white-out zero visibility blizzard. Been there, done that. No fun...but the things we do for fresh powder skiing are insane.


----------



## LightCannon (Dec 9, 2009)

IIRC...All-season tires don't serve either role (summer tires/winter tires) particularly well...

You'd be better off with chains.


----------



## Mjolnir (Dec 9, 2009)

LightCannon said:


> IIRC...All-season tires don't serve either role (summer tires/winter tires) particularly well...
> 
> You'd be better off with chains.



No, all season tires would be adequate for the amounts of snow that would likely be found at such a southern latitude. Around here, putting chains on your tires in order to drive through Texas at the beginning of December would be somewhat ridiculous. Most of the people around here have all weather tires, and they work fine if you know what you are doing.


----------



## jamesmtl514 (Dec 9, 2009)

ok, as I've previously stated, you're getting some really good advice on here. 

I'm not going to tell you not to be prepared, just don't think that driivng on snow is something reserved for people as skilled as Swedish rally drivers.
Definitely, as soon as you see a good covering of snow on the ground, pull in to an empty parking lot and practice driving around. 

I drove a lowered (~2 inches) 1991 Honda Accord through Montreal for 4 winters. With Blizzak winter tires. Never did i get stuck, never did i crash and if i went sideways it was because I wanted to. I got snowed in by the snow removal trucks. I often was the first person to travel on a street, I would hear my underbody scraping against the snow the whole way.
Get good winter blades, (they work fine all year so it's not money wasted + good ie.: rainX winter formula windshield fluid + a spare)
Get a scraper and snow brush too. a small foldable showel is good too, as is cat litter. 





Tips if you start sliding sideways.
-DO NOT TOUCH THE BRAKES. (because you have ABS)
when you lock up your wheels, your car keeps sliding in the same direction. You want to keep your wheels turing and even perhaps applying a little gas to direct it where you want to go)

- always look where you want to go. Steer towards where you want to go.

depends on the circumstance, but powered (giving it gas) in a skid will get you out of it. if your back end goes out on a FWD car, give it light gas and you'll pull it back.

IF YOU DO GET STUCK.
rock the vehicle back and forth gently, the momentum will get you out. (FWD-REVERSE-FWD-REVERSE.. gently, until you think you have gained enough momentum and traction, then give it a bit more gas, 1/2to3/4 throttle)
NEVER full, as you'll just dig yourself in and lose traction.
Also, and be careful, if you're stuck in snow, let some air out of your traction tires. Deflating them gives them a bigger footprint and give more traction. Use this in extreme circumstances and make sure to reinflate ASAP and drive VERY slowly until you can inflate them.
If you can have someone push the vehicle while rocking it your chances are significantly higer of getting out.

People said bring gloves, hats, coats, i assumed that if you're expecting snow you're also planning on dressing appropriately.


----------



## LUPARA (Dec 9, 2009)

Matrixshaman, LuxLuther and Mikeinrancho and the photos are right on the money. 

I would reassure you that in the drier, colder conditions (like the photos) you'll have no problems unless you're a maniac driver. 4x4's are only good if yu get stuck, they do not automatically assure that you'll stick to the road; so: Always get out of your vehicle and inspect the road yourself; before you proceed, don't rely on just the feel of the vehicle etc. If your vehicle is actually full time 4 wheel drive (not AWD), then you should take extra care on ice; since you'll lose control of both ends of the vehicle.
1) If you need chains/cables; chances are, you shouldn't be driving.
2) If the temp fluctuates above and below zero; THAT's when you may have the worst problems with unseen, black ice. If you hit black ice; there's not a whole lot you can do about controlling your vehicle. Getting your foot of the gas pedal is the best thing to do, and don't touch the brake obviously
3) Watch out for ice on the flat bridges across creeks etc. where the bridge surface will be colder than the rest of the road, and the possibility of ice is very real.
4) Hypothermia occurs in relatively warm temps 57F; good sleeping bags, in addition to blankets, would be a good thing, if you encounter bad weather in remote areas.
5) I've never noticed a whole helluva lot of difference in the composition of tires when encountering ice; ice is ice and it really sucks.
6) Consistent speed when driving is essential but DON'T use cruise control anytime on you're trip.
7) Common sense prevails; you'll have a great trip. Just don't worry too much. 
8) Daytime driving is better if you're worried about road surfaces. 
9) Take a look at the traffic coming towards you for signs of adverse weather ahead. 
10) If you see a lot of trucks parked; check out why.
11) Snack foods and water.
12) Cell phone coverage?

If I've insulted your intelligence, then forgive me, but it really isn't that big of a deal unless you encounter some real winter weather.

Flashlight with STROBE? Never thought I'd suggest that!!!:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

Have a great time and report back!! INVU!!!!!!:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:


----------



## Hallmcc (Dec 9, 2009)

*Prior to braking, shift into neutral or step on the clutch*. Removing the torque from the drive wheels gives you a shorter stopping distance and less chance of a skid.

*Never touch the brakes while cornering or making a turn*. Slow down prior to the turn by down shifting (yes, even with a automatic) and have your speed adjusted slow enough to perform the movement without braking or accelerating. Shift into neutral and roll the corner if it is down hill. 

*Use small movements of the steering wheel in a slide. *Small turns of the steering wheel during a skid is enough to correct the vehicle's movement. Shift to neutral, get off the brakes, and steer through the slide. Over reacting gets more people in trouble and increases the chance of losing control of the vehicle.

In a slide, get off the brakes, and aim for unused area. Snow actually has friction like sand. The compacted, melted, and refrozen areas are slick. when you lose traction head for the fresh stuff and the tires will regain traction.


----------



## Cataract (Dec 9, 2009)

It's snowing like crazy up here today... expecting anywhere between 6 to 12 inches of snow, but I'm pretty sure we've got 6 inches already an there is no sign that the storm will slow down anytime soon.....

Which makes me realise there IS a lot of good advice here... but here are a few more pointers:



Illum said:


> So the best way is to drive halfway on the shoulder where one tires churning snow and occasionally snake around to break the straight line?


 
DON'T swirve ever... the straight line is your best friend. All I'm saying is that very often the main tracks left by vehicles transforms into ice.... IF that's the case, just stay a little to the left or to the right where you can still have two of your tires get some grip with the snow, but keep some room to maneuver, just in case.

In my opinion, avoid chains on the highway. Snow&ice tires are the best. If you can't justify it to yourself, at the very least go for all-season tires (the softer the better) that you can leave on your car when you get back home. 

Lane changing can be very interesting: if there is a little snow accumulation in between lanes (there usually is during storms) your car might feel like it wants to stay in your lane. Just keep it steady until you're past the accumulation.

NEVER use rough or sudden movements: use the breaks, gas and steering gently. Sudden shifts in weight can make you lose it. Of course, how much shift is enough to lose it is very relative to the type of snow. Hard snow isn't too bad, unless it's wet. Ice is ice, never underestimate it. You know how much it's hard to stand up with boots on a skating ring, same goes for your car.

If your braking doesn't seem to do anything, let go of the brakes so the wheels unlock and try it again with a little less brake. In extreme emergency, pumping the brakes is better than locking up. Same goes for steering: if turning the wheel doesn't do anything, turning more will do even less: straighten the wheels and try again, only slower. 

Practicing in an empty parking lot is the best advice: I can't count how many times what I learned on my own saved me from a fender bender. However, you won't find a parking lot with all the snow+ice mix types... so don't become overconfident.

Watch out for the worst enemy: snow covered ice. It can feel like the snow has a good traction, but when you try to slow down or turn, all of a sudden, it becomes a frictionless surface. As I pointed before, just a little off the main tracks is often better for traction, but not on top of the snow mound shapes like a speed bump... just enough to get a little more traction.

Always stick with the main roads when in unknown territory. These are usually better maintained and you can look at what others do to get an idea of what to expect. If the guy ahead has flashing brake lights, you can guess he's having a hard time to come to a stop, so slow down as much as you can immediately. Aso, if you se a car going sideways, then you know better and can slow down while it's still time. 

It's mostly a matter of common sense. Some people become over confident and drive like it's nothing... just don't do what they do. Truck drivers often know better (there are still crazy ones, though), but the extra weight gives them more traction, so imitate with respect of proportion.

As it's been said before, but in my own words, they still let people drive in the snow, so it's not all that bad. All this advice concerns exceptions more than the norm, but there is only two ways to find the dangerous situations: drive into it eyes shut, or keep an eye out and take a chance you might ee it coming.


----------



## Mjolnir (Dec 9, 2009)

Hallmcc said:


> *Prior to braking, shift into neutral or step on the clutch*. Removing the torque from the drive wheels gives you a shorter stopping distance and less chance of a skid.


No, faster braking would make you _more_ likely to skid, not less. You want to break gradually, or the wheels will lock and you will lose traction. If removing the power to the wheels makes the brakes stop the wheels from turning more quickly, then the wheels are more likely to lock up, and more likely to skid (and prevent you from controlling your car).
Either way, you shouldn't have any trouble locking the wheels even if the car is in neutral. If you are driving a manual (which you aren't), you should be disengaging the clutch anyways before you brake so you don't stall the car.

When the road has reduced friction you _do not _want to brake harder, you want to brake gradually to maintain traction or you will have no control.


----------



## LuxLuthor (Dec 9, 2009)

ROFL...just as I posted that the highways are well maintained and no need to worry about being stranded for any length of time, there is this monster storm story with 4 feet accumulations, drifting to 15 feet...on top of freezing rain. Yeah, if you get stuck in a 15 foot drift, that could be a problem.


----------



## turbodog (Dec 10, 2009)

funkymonkey1111 said:


> 1. make sure your cat litter isn't the clay kind, otherwise, it will decrease your traction. sand is better. if stuck, you can always try to use your floormats for traction under the tires.
> 
> 2. a shovel can come in hand to move snow if you're stuck.



If you have trouble you may simply find yourself in the ditch a little, with a bruised ego and spinning tires.

However.... with a little traction (sand), luck (shoveling) and the right tools (high lift jack) you can get out and be on your way.


http://www.hi-lift.com/hi-lift-jacks/index.html

If one of these won't lift your stuck vehicle from a ditch/etc you might as well abandon it. Lift height up to about 5 feet.....


----------



## stevep (Dec 10, 2009)

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,...est=latestnews

*FLAGSTAFF, Ariz. — Officials in northern Arizona are searching for more than 30 hunters who became stranded in snow after a powerful winter storm swept through the state.*
Gerry Blair of the Coconino County sheriff's office says authorities received 11 reports, some from hunters themselves or others in the field, and some from family members reporting the hunters overdue.
Blair says the reports will be prioritized based on the hunters' locations, the number in each party and the estimated threat.
The storm that moved out Tuesday dumped more than 20 inches of snow in some areas, caused one death and dozens of accidents, _closed long stretches of Interstates 40 and 17, and kept students out of school. _


----------



## Boudreaux (Dec 10, 2009)

Be extremely carefull when passing through New Orleans on I-10! It will be very, very cold since the Saints have won 11 consecutive games and have clenched their leagues home field advantage. It has always been said that "hell will freeze over" before the Saints win a Superbowl! And since the dramatic drop in temperature occurs over a several day period; Should you be passing through during these times of intense cold, stop and have a few boiled crab and shrimp, along with andouille gumbo and the other house specialties such as fried soft shell crab po-boy (with appriopriate adult beveridges) at Big Al's on Annuciation Street. Al will fortify you for the rest of the trip out of the city. May the Gods be with you! YA YA!


----------



## sawlight (Dec 10, 2009)

Yeah, I was watching the weather channel when I put in my post that some roads where REQUIRING tire chains for travel! It doesn't mean you have to drive on them the entire trip!
It also seems not all that uncomon for people, not familiar with an area, to get lost or stranded in bad weather for short periods of time. Bring some water and food!
Then remeber, ALWAYS REMEMBER rule 1, NEVER, NEVER, NEVER LEAVE YOUR CAR IF YOU GET STUCK!! You will never be found in a reasonable amount of time.


----------



## Cataract (Dec 10, 2009)

Seems like the U.S. is getting a good taste of Canadian winter... you guys have been getting it worse than we have for the last two years... then again I remember winters even worse thant that. 

I think you should definitely invest in snow&ice tires for this trip... makes a hell of a difference in this type of weather...

one more piece of advice: if you get stuck, don't spin your tires like crazy... it just makes things worse. Rock the car if you can (forward / reverse with the car's inertia), otherwise sand, gravel or salt will help (traction aids never did much for me)


----------



## Illum (Dec 10, 2009)

:wow: I didn't expect so much help :twothumbs:

yeah the weather is becoming a bit unpredictable...even in Florida:shrug:


----------



## Patriot (Dec 13, 2009)

Hey Illum, I10 will be a cake walk but you'll very likely have snow next weekend up through Williams and up on the Rim of the My prediction is that you'll see snow but it probably won't accumulate on the roads heavily. It often doesn't even stick if temperatures aren't extreme. You may have mountain clouds though if there is weather, that's very common above 6500ft over here even if it isn't snowing. Judging from your route you have nothing to sweat. 

The best assurance against not needing chains is to have them with you...lol. I took them today and never need to take the truck out of 2WD.

Flagstaff, AZ around 11:30 today.


----------



## mdocod (Dec 13, 2009)

I was thinking more about what has been said here so far, which has all been really awesome input, and got to thinking, I would like to give a go at digging a little deeper and trying to explain why some of the driving techniques discussed are recommended...

Every technique recommended have their roots in trying to maximize the use of available traction. The way to maximize the use of available traction is to always keep the tires turning with the speed of the vehicle, and in the direction that the vehicle is heading. Any time the tires "break" traction (skidding or spinning), the useful traction drops to a small fraction of what is available. Threshold braking and accelerating is the deliberate attempt to accelerate and stop using every bit of available traction, achieved right before traction is broken and skidding begins. (imagine pushing the brake pedal slightly, then a little more, then a little more, then skidding, threshold traction was achieved just before the braking attempt caused the tires to skid, this was the maximum amount of traction available given conditions)

Here's some more thoughts:

Slowing before a turn, then progressing through the turn while "coasting" :

Under a given condition, there is a finite amount of traction available for the tire to grip the road or ice or snow (or any road condition for that matter). That traction must be divided amongst all attempts at momentum change. Steering a vehicle is a change in momentum, as is stopping and accelerating. When both steering and braking, or steering and accelerating are attempted, the available traction is split between the two attempted operations. If a single operation is attempted, more traction will be available for that operation. In other words, trying to slow down during a turn is more likely to cause a skid than if one were to slow down prior to the turn, and then follow through with the turn at a slow coasting speed. Many of these same principles are considered in racing events on dry pavement. A normal car on ice, is, in an awkward sort of comparison, like a high performance muscle car trying to make it's way through a series of S-curves as fast as possible. With the souped up muscle car, breaking traction in accelerating and turning is a frequent problem even on dry pavement. Drivers in those circumstances are going to try to push the car and it's handling to the limits of threshold traction with every push of every pedal and every crank of the steering wheel. On ice in a normal vehicle, weight transfer is almost entirely out of the picture since speeds and momentum are all minimal, but other than that aspect, the same concepts are in place in slow motion, trying to maintain traction. 10MPH on glazed ice-pack with a wet surface is like 200MPH on concrete. Both situations require that the driver have a "feel" for what's going on. All the talking in the world is almost useless compared to feeling it for yourself and practicing. 

Interesting Factoid:

Ice comes in many varieties. The slickest surfaces are hard-packed and polished ice that are wet on the surface. These conditions will develop at intersections on warmer days, or where the radiant heat of vehicles is prevalent. Funny thing about ice is that the colder it is out, the better traction you will have on it. When there is enough heat energy to melt just the surface, the water on top of the ice acts like microscopic ball-bearings. In my experience, when the temp outside is below ~15F, everything is pretty easy to negotiate. When temps rise to ~30F+, with ice pack already in place, then things get extremely hairy. 

--------

Downshifting rather than braking, or in conjunction with braking:

This must be done with care, but is an effective way to generate subtle braking force with a lower likelihood of locking up the tires. This technique is especially effective in true 4WD systems where the engine braking is spread across both both the front and rear tires more evenly (won't go into the complexities of differential types in this discussion...). In a front wheel drive, this technique is also worth being aware of and can be useful at times. This technique can be dangerous if the engine braking generates enough braking force on a very slick surface to break traction and start a skid. The driver must be constantly ready to pop to neutral or a higher gear to restore control if this happens. If the driver does not react to these conditions as second nature, then the delay between a skid starting and traction restored through action can be too long. Those who drive manual transmissions are more apt to take advantage of this technique. For reducing speed from high speeds I use this technique in my 4WD SUV frequently and usually go to neutral at the last moment when engine braking is "done" (rolling idle is reached in 1st gear). My SUV is a 5 speed manual, so when driving it, I'm already in the mindset of shifting frequently so it comes naturally, and "neutral" is available as fast as I can push the clutch in, if you aren't comfortable shifting frequently, then you may be best served to ignore complicating your driving with down-shifting techniques on low friction situations. Also, a modern 4-wheel ABS system will provide the best braking power balanced with available traction for MOST drivers. (I personally do not like ABS for myself, but prefer ABS for drivers around me ) 

(FYI: a perfectly implemented 4 channel ABS system will be able to maximize available traction for each tire independently which is something no driver/operator can achieve through threshold braking unless they had 4 separate brake pedals, and a lot more legs and feet, and well... several left brains)

------

Shifting to neutral when coming to a stop:

In vehicles with automatic transmissions, as anyone who has driven one is aware, even at idle, the engine is attempting to move the vehicle forward with however much effort is transmitted by the torque converter to the driving wheels. As you come to the final slow down, this can be a problem, especially in a 2 wheel drive vehicle, because 2 of the wheels will be under some driving force while 2 are free spinning. The non-driven wheels will often lock up before the driven wheels do, which results in an uneven distribution of braking force. Having 2 tires skidding along with 2 other tires still pulling the vehicle forward will result in a loss of directional control of the vehicle. By shifting to neutral towards the end of the stopping attempt, all 4 wheels are just free spinning, braking force can be spread more evenly. The problem is generally compounded substantially when the engine temperature is below operating temp, as most engines will have a high idle when cold, which translates to a greater driving force to the wheels. That, in conjunction with a cold transmission; the transmission fluid will have a higher viscosity when cold, which will result in more engine effort transmitted through the torque converter at idle. Modern ABS systems will probably offset this problem most of the time but if you are driving the vehicle with the vehicle still "cold" (within the first 5-10 minutes of driving) this could be an issue worth keeping in mind. This ties into another recommended driving technique...

------

Pumping the brakes:

Many people do not even understand why their father told them to pump the brakes. In actuality, pumping the brakes should actually be the step after trying to achieve braking force through threshold braking (a proper continuous application of threshold braking will allocate more available traction to stopping than pumping the brakes). If all attempts to achieve useful braking force through normal threshold braking fail, then one should resort to a fast pumping of the brakes as a sort of last ditch effort to try to prevent a collision. In an automatic transmission, pumping the brakes is almost useless unless you shift to neutral before making the attempt. The reason for this stems back to why pumping the brakes can have a useful effect, in a manual transmission, pumping the brakes will either kill the engine or not generate the desired effect unless the clutch is depressed or the vehicle is in neutral...

The concept of pumping the brakes, is to generate a braking force that comes into play primarily as the movement of the vehicle "spins up" a skidding tire. The braking force is equal to the effort required to "spin up" the weight of the wheel/tire, combined with whatever minimal braking force is generated as the skidding is re-initiated. To elaborate: You push the brake down, the tire skids, at that moment that you are pushing the brake down, you achieve a moment of braking force just before the skid begins, you release the brake, the tire spins up to the speed you are traveling, during that time that the tire is "spinning back up" to match your speed a small braking effect is generated, (the energy required to "spin up" the tires/wheel translates into braking force). Pumping the brakes can literally be defined as a way of generating small peaks of threshold braking when the finesse required to do so normally is simply not available given the circumstances. Also, when doing this, there will be moments where some side-to-side traction is still available to steer the vehicle (somewhat) in the direction desired. When one considers where the braking force is coming from in this situation, it's apparent that if you have an automatic transmission in "drive," all of the useful braking force from "spinning up" wheels is lost because the engine is transmitting a turning force to those wheels which cancels out the braking force that could be had. Often, the effect is actually counter-productive because in the moments that the brake is not applied, the engine will actually just increase forward effort more than what braking effort was realized.

With modern ABS systems, pumping the brakes is generally considered a NO-NO because the ABS system is actually going to use a very fast pulsation of braking to maximize available traction, pumping the brakes on a vehicle equipment with ABS will only serve (in most cases) to circumvent a best-possible outcome that the ABS system can generate. 

-----

More thoughts, and other things to consider:

Heavy wet slush and snow will build up in-between lanes, between the "tire path" of vehicles, and off to the sides of the road when temps are above freezing when snow has already accumulated. Even just an inch or 2 or slush can be very dangerous when moving at high speeds, but often it will pile up to several inches of heavy pack slush. The problem is that the "tracks" you may be following down a road are often just wet pavement that provides good traction and good confidence, then a lane change is attempted, or an accidental drifting out of those tracks occurs, and the tires that engage that slush will suddenly behave like a combination of zero turning traction combined with massive braking force, which can throw the vehicle into a sideways skid, or spin. The natural reaction of a driver (I've made this mistake once, never again), is to turn against the direction of pull very hard. the vehicle will often start to veer back in the desired direction, but the wheels will often have been turned very sharp in an attempt to correct for the mishap, when the tires touch that pavement at high speed, the vehicle is practically thrown into the opposite direction. Often, this results in a violent spin. Best advice here, is, if you have the sensation that the vehicle is suddenly being pulled to one direction by slush; let off the accelerator and carefully apply the brakes, if the direction you are headed in is not detrimental, allow the vehicle to follow that path without any massive steering corrections, the vehicle will naturally slow down due to the drag of the slush anyways, after speed has been reduced, you will be more apt to be able to steer back onto the road. If the direction you are headed is detrimental, make a minor steering correction and apply the accelerator slightly to try to pull the vehicle back to your intended lane/position. In these conditions, it's best to keep good distance between all vehicles around you. Slush is thrown up by tires in waves much like vehicles passing through puddles, it will slap up onto your windshield and often will take several passes of the wipers (after having the where-with-all to turn them on) to create any useful visibility again. These moments of blindness require that the driver try not to make any sudden adjustment to the direction or speed of the vehicle. My suggestion, if you are "blasted" by slush, is to hold a direction that you feel is most accurate based on what you saw last, and let off the gas, while simultaneously reaching for the wiper controls and slamming them into maximum speed, followed by a quick blast of window washer fluid which will help break it up faster. As soon as visibility is restored, be prepared to make adjustments but continue to stay in the frame of mind that you can not make those corrections rapidly, everything needs to be fluid and smooth. 

---

---

What's funny about having written all of this, is that, much of it does not apply in modern vehicles with good ABS systems. With a good ABS system, all the driver really needs to do is reduce speed to an appropriate level, and drive based on what's going on "way ahead." If you can look beyond the car in front of you, and make decisions about what to do in advance of when traffic "up ahead" starts getting into a cluster, then you will be fine. 

-Eric

PS: if you are approaching a traffic light, and the light turns yellow, and you are on ice, you are going to have to make the call differentially than if you were on dry pavement. if there is no-one around you or behind you, you might take this opportunity to try to make a sudden stop on ice, if there are people stopped on both sides of the intersection, and you have someone behind you following too close, you're better off just coasting through a yellow-turned-red. If the people waiting at the intersection are on ice as well, then they aren't going to be able to dart out there anyways, and most people will make a point to look left and right even when entering a green when conditions are icy. I've made the mistake of being the only person with the driving ability to actually come to a stop on some very slick stuff at an intersection, it resulted in being rear-ended. Luckily nobody was injured, however, it could have been worse.


----------



## Julian Holtz (Dec 13, 2009)

*hill road*

Not sure if it has been mentioned yet:

When driving up a hill, prepare for the situation when you lose traction and slide backwards. A hill road has two sides: One facing uphill, one downhill. Always have in mind which side is which while driving. As soon as you start to slide backwards, steer your car to the roadside facing uphill, before picking up considerable sliding speed. This way, the worst thing is that you slam into the hillside at a fairly low speed.
The other option would be picking up sliding speed, and tumbling over the street side facing downhill - very bad.

Check this image:
http://www.pnox.de/fotos/ohrid/pix/IMG_2007_8682_a1.jpg

The right side is the side facing uphill. Better slide into this side, than the other, facing downhill.

2 years ago, a buddy almost dropped his car with 3 people inside, including me, over such an edge.


----------



## Patriot (Dec 14, 2009)

Hi Illum,

Here's 4 and a half minutes of driving near Flagstaff this weekend in light snow and clouds. I had to make and emergency trip up there to pick up some family on Saturday. Looking at the weather forecast, it appears that you're going to have perfect conditions! Bring binoculars and a camera because the canyon is going to be incredibly beautiful this time of the year.


----------



## Illum (Dec 27, 2009)

ahh, we were quite fortunate on the weather side of things, we've managed to reach Carlsbad, NM with minimal weather related issues. 

I've packed on a couple lights too many, and when I finally bought meself a pair of jeans...something I've never tried on for the last 13 years...pocket room...what pocket room?:thinking:

Khakis with cargo pockets was something I've been spoiled with for too long. For I can carry the following on me with no issues
Wallet, Benchmade Nagara, Pocketwatch, 2xcr123A spare, Cellphone, Notepad, Mirror, Jet Lighter, L4-MCE [5A], L4-MCE [CW], E2L, L6, A2-WH, Zebralite H50, Keys with Muyshondt Aeon. 

With jeans on...everything either goes on the belt or tossed in the luggage. I regret selling a couple of my holsters before planning the trip.

We departed from Florida on the 22th around 10 in the morning and reached Alabama around the evening 6PM. We had some eerie cloudbands pass above us, cold swirls accompanied by rain. The next morning we arrived in Louisiana and had a brief time to walk and dine  in the New Orleans French Quarters; Historical District, in this interesting restraurant called the  ****ie Brennan's Bourbon House of Seafood. We were able to reach as far as Beaumont, TX around 7PM local time. 

Went through Louisiana...got sick of traveling on bridges quite fast...most of the time I believe we were on some sort of a bridge





Food was okay, price is expensive...but given that my unfortunate location looks into the curtains of a hustler bar across the street. The price of a few shrimp might've been justifiable





Its awkward to realize that we will be on the road on Christmas day...but that was probably the best present we were able to recieve. My brother was able to fly out successfully from the awful NW blizzard and my mother recovered from a stubborn cold and was fit to travel. 

the 24th was another all-day driving from Beaumont to Sonora, TX. and saw our first views of "plateaus." Being on trips into the appalachian mountains for too long the seemingly unfriendly and desolate landscape seemed to dull the spirit of visiting the frontier. Propelling our luck, mom enrolled as member of Holiday Inn. Ozona TX didn't have a Holiday Inn on the tourbooks, but it was there...built march 2009, brand new and largely vacant.

Christmas day...brr, 25F ambient with highest being 40F. For us Floridians 40F is a an 1-2 hour/year event...here its quite common. I never drank so much hot cocoa in my life. We reached Carlsbad, NM around noon. hauled off the gear from the car into another Holiday Inn, then proceeded to explore the town. Since we left Ft. Stockton Carlsbad is the first "sign of civilization" since we changed roads from I-10 to Hwy 285. First is Sonara...then Orla, places that we expected to at minimum looks promising to spend a night in. 

We visited the Carlsbad Caverns today, along with the Gudalupe Mountains National park. 

Even with the 5A tint, the pictures sucked...the CW was completely unuseable





Incandescent lighting provided in park





The M3T was useless in the big domes below the ground and provided only minimal assistance in the illumination of overhead Stalactites. the E2L was kept on pointing up from my belt at all times and kept me safe from low overhangs [I'm 6'4] the zebralite H50 only assisted in blinding people in front of me. Aeon on low was very nice to have the CW L4-MCE washed everything out, but lit up keep pockets around the cave with ease. the 5A tint on my other L4-MCE was perfect for photography. My mom remembered her E01-OD, My brother brought his E2L, and my dad brought his P1-CE. I feel so proud 

We've concluded our visits from the cavern in short order and proceeded to the other state park, our prospects were cut short after we got there late and as the sun ebbed behind the mountain walls temperature dropped quite rapidly and forced us on our retreat. We'll be heading to Gallup[?] NM tomorrow...eventually to Alberque. More updates on that later. 
No pics, of all the things I packed on I forgot the card reader somewhere. I'll eventually find it because dad said he saw me unplug it from the computer. I have no recollection of it


----------



## Retinator (Dec 29, 2009)

The only advice I can give is to baby the car.

Easy on the gas.
Easy on the brakes.
Easy on the steering. 
Be as gentle as possible. No sudden movements/jerks in steering, etc....

Also be extra careful on right hand turns. Since the turn is sharper than a left turn, it's easy to misjudge them and over accelerate into the turn, sliding into the next lane over.

Loads of good advice here for everyone.


----------



## KD5XB (Dec 30, 2009)

Illum, it's been several days and you haven't posted anything. In that time, I-40 has been shut down once or twice due to snow and accidents.



_*ARE YOU OK???*_​


----------



## etc (Dec 30, 2009)

I had a GM full size V8 station wagon, with RWD.

Put snow tires on it.

It had every option, including LSD.

I moved and loaded the thing to the gills. It was heavy.

Got caught in a heavy snow storm in Kansas.

Everybody either stopped or was going 25mph. I was going 45-50mph and passing everyone. No problems with traction. It was a combination of heavy car, snow tires and LSD differential.


----------



## Illum (Jan 1, 2010)

From Albuquerque we drove through Thoreau, eventually to Gallup. Where we stayed in a antique hotel called the "El Rancho" 





We've visited a Meteor Crater the next day and made it to Flagstaff by nightfall





Being a Floridian I was surprised to find myself getting used to sub freezing weather with just a windbreaker pull-over, most of the time the temperature never got higher than 30F and have touched 14F a few times. 



KD5XB said:


> Illum, it's been several days and you haven't posted anything. In that time, I-40 has been shut down once or twice due to snow and accidents.
> 
> 
> 
> _*ARE YOU OK???*_​




We were fortunate to have never touched snow until we were in the Grand Canyon village, then we got snowed in by about 8" in one night. North exit had two crashes, south exit had a pileup. so both ends were shut down that night by rager's sirens. 

Going up





On the road to the lodge, clouds getting lower as we drive





Taken the next morning, standing in wet socks and wearing wet gloves





This morning :twothumbs:





We were safe as we've arrived before the snow started to fall, minor ice issues but we made it okay, save one weird thing. The car is a 2008 model and driven on highways only. Its rack and pinon failed catastrophically, bleeding precious steering fluid as fast as we could replenish it. First we noticed noises from the pump taking in air, we filled it up, drove the next 80 miles with no issues. Then overnight on the south rim we had ankle deep snow in one day alone, the car was buried in one side. Tomorrow morning we could only drive 50 miles before the steering column felt literally seized, then 34, then 20, from then we dumped some in every exit/curb with no ice we could find. 

The dealers dumbfounded, road side service is baffled, and we were frustrated. No one knew how or why it failed in such a manner. we were told that one side of the gasket blew out completely and with the engine/pump running a hard left or a hard right will send the fluid shooting all over the tie-rods/engine, then you smell this burning aroma whenever you turn the windsield blowers on. the car literally "bled" its way to the repair shop. I didn't take a picture of the bottles of steering fluid we've consumed but it was impressive. It might have been a gallon or so...

Closest repair is either in Cottonwood or Prescott, ordering parts could take two weeks, but Prescott has one in stock. So we drove about 90 miles down from the canyons to Cottonwood, only to be told to go to Prescott. So here we are, in Prescott, they're saying it would be monday at the earliest. I have not had access to internet until today.

I believe SR180 was opened this afternoon, we did not touch I-40, SR69 is open, plowed and very minimal issues. I-17 had no issues except staying behind semi's I have probably used up half a gallon of windshield fluid trying to gain visiability.


----------



## KD5XB (Jan 1, 2010)

Glad you're OK!

Doesn't it seem like the car only breaks down when you're on teh road? It wouldn't DARE break down at home!


----------



## Illum (Jan 2, 2010)

KD5XB said:


> Glad you're OK!
> 
> Doesn't it seem like the car only breaks down when you're on teh road? It wouldn't DARE break down at home!



The issue developed when we were in the lowest temperatures [~13F], accompanied by very bumpy roads. I believe had I stayed in Florida [~40F lowest] and driven on highways all the time it probably will not happen until several years later






We were able to rent another car paid for by the Hyundai service department and during the time in which the car is in shop took a side trip to California's Joshua Tree National Park. We're a little tight on budget for this unplanned visit but given the current events things are looking good. 

I am thankful that the advices given here did not need to be put into practice, and the only snow related driving incident was to slide down a ramp and ran the rear into a pile of snow plowed to the side of the road. 

I wore tennis shoes, bad idea...I had to plant myself into the snow to get any traction to push the car out from the curb. Thank goodess for spare socks


----------



## LuxLuthor (Jan 3, 2010)

Talk about a weird problem on such a new car! Great photos btw.


----------



## Illum (Jan 4, 2010)

We got lost in Los Angeles trying to leave its outskirts...
We didn't know where we were until I look out the motel window the next morning and saw this





gee...we've came from the East coast and now I can see the Pacific:shrug:
The temperature soared up to 83F...and we packed for 30F

We were able to see the Rose Bowl Floats before we return to Prescott, AZ. 




Now if the car repair can't replace that ridiculous component, then we might trade it in and buy a new car. It's ridiculous for a vehicle to lose power steering in its first year of service, and god knows what else might break:green:


----------



## mdocod (Jan 4, 2010)

I'm always curious about car problems as I am a DIYer when it comes to almost all car maintenance. I did a quick search online and from what I gather, power steering problems are not unusual on the Santa Fe. My guess would be that like so many other crossover type vehicles like this (I guess we could call them tall sedans), many of the mechanical components of the vehicle will share common parts or part design with smaller sedans from the same manufacture. Of course, this is done to save on build-costs while delivering a vehicle that fits a market niche. With a larger, taller, and heavier body, there is more leverage and more forces involved in all maneuvers. That in and of itself may not be enough to cause a premature failure in a component, but road trips introduce load levels that are often pushing the limits of a sedan platform. 2-3 or more humans and a bunch of luggage can add up to some serious tonnage (well, okay, fraction of a tonnage but you get the point)...

The curb weight of a santa fe is over 3800lbs, and the maximum gvwr is about 5300lbs. A few passengers plus cargo can get right up around 1000lbs pretty fast... On a conservative thought, even if you were sitting at 4500lbs total weight, with cargo/passengers/fuel, you would be about 1200lbs heavier than the sedans that many of the components under that car may have came from... Makes me wonder where that rack-and-pinion came from 

-Eric


----------



## Illum (Jan 8, 2010)

mdocod said:


> The curb weight of a santa fe is over 3800lbs, and the maximum gvwr is about 5300lbs. A few passengers plus cargo can get right up around 1000lbs pretty fast... On a conservative thought, even if you were sitting at 4500lbs total weight, with cargo/passengers/fuel, you would be about 1200lbs heavier than the sedans that many of the components under that car may have came from... Makes me wonder where that rack-and-pinion came from
> 
> -Eric



the Santa Fe was designed to be occupied with up to 7 people... [well, US models only go up to 5, Taiwan's vehicles don't have to compensate seats for pear shaped individuals...]. We have approx 300 pounds of Luggage, four individuals...adding on to uphill climb, its probably why:shrug:











We were able to make it home yesterday...drove over about 1000 miles, bbl, gotta get that car washed
















Classes start monday


----------



## Launch Mini (Jan 8, 2010)

Great to you hear you made it, albiet in a bit more than one piece.
Safe is good.


----------

