# UPDATE : so-called protected 18650 cells from All-Battery.com



## TinderBox (UK) (Mar 7, 2006)

*UPDATE : Now they are protected 18650 cells from All-Battery.com*

"update" looks like the battery`s I got from All-Battery.com, might not be protected after all.

I have sent two e-mails to All-Battery.com, and am waiting their reply.

********************************************************

I have been looking for some protected 18650 cell to fit my VB-16.

and i found four for $23.79 from All-Battery.com

at the following link.

http://www.all-battery.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=461

I emailed them about the max cell diameter and they sent me the following reply.

my question is, are they 18.1mm or are they reading from the spec sheet.

and they still will be to wide to fit.

********************************************************

Dear customer, 

The diameter is 18.1mm. 

thanks, 

Customer Service 
All-Battery.com 



Is it possible for you to measure the diameter of your

4 Li-Ion 18650 3.7V 2200 mAh rechargeable battery with protection PCB

Li18650-2200-4

The cells must be no wider than 18.5mm at there widest point.

As is to must be to fit in my VB-16 flashlight.


Thankyou.


----------



## MSI (Mar 7, 2006)

*Re: protected 18650 from All-Battery.com*

Great find, but I don't think they will ship to UK.

From their shopping FAQ:
"Q9: Can you send orders to other countries? 

We ship to the United States, Canada."

The TL-200 charger looked really interesting.


----------



## TinderBox (UK) (Mar 7, 2006)

*Re: protected 18650 from All-Battery.com*

I registered and added them to my cart, but they want $30.00 to ship to the UK.

do you think their dimmensions are correct.

I don`t think they can be.

just hoping someone knows for sure.

If they do fit.

if someone on CPS is going to order them for themselves , would they order me a set and i will paypal them the money.

you can post up to 4lb in weight with an GLOBAL PRIORITY MAIL: FLAT RATE ENVELOPE for $5.25.

regards


regards.


----------



## MSI (Mar 7, 2006)

*Re: protected 18650 from All-Battery.com*

The protection strip adds to the width of the cell and there is also a variance at how much it adds. I'm not sure if their measument includes the protection strip since you get a different measure different places on the cell. However, 18.1mm looks right for the cell without protection, but with protection it may be over 18.5mm.
I think you will take a chance on buying these, it will be much safer for you to buy 17670.


----------



## TinderBox (UK) (Mar 7, 2006)

*Re: protected 18650 from All-Battery.com*

I have read that lower capacity protected 18650 cells might fit.

I specificaly asked them to measure the cells, 18.1mm looked to good to be true.

I had been told that protected 18650 are 18.7mm.

still a good price if you can get them to fit in your flashlight, and you live in the USA.

regards.


----------



## Paul_in_Maryland (Mar 7, 2006)

*Re: protected 18650 from All-Battery.com*



MSI said:


> The TL-200 charger looked really interesting.


See my TL-200 thread. I very much like the TL-200 in concept, but I haven't got either of two samples to work.


----------



## Paul_in_Maryland (Mar 7, 2006)

*Re: protected 18650 from All-Battery.com*

CPFer MuleSkinner bought eight of their protected 18650 cells, then sold them in this thread, where you can see photos. He sold them after learning that they might not be able to power a Carley 1499 lamp.


----------



## cy (Mar 7, 2006)

*Re: protected 18650 from All-Battery.com*



Paul_in_Maryland said:


> CPFer MuleSkinner bought eight of their protected 18650 cells, then sold them in this thread, where you can see photos. He sold them after learning that they might not be able to power a Carley 1499 lamp.



Tenergy corp apears to be legit, if their web info is correct. based out of silicon valley with mfg faciities in china. they would have to carry liability insurance on their products. 

pricing seems to be better or equal to overseas. if quality is equal to 3 cells I recived from muleskinner. these cells have excellent quality build. have not ran mah tests to verify claim capacity. 

this is indeed good news to find these folks. if indeed they are legit. protected 18650 cells measure 18.18 at thickest point and fits into surefire U2 with no problems.


----------



## CoffeeAchiever (Mar 7, 2006)

*Re: protected 18650 from All-Battery.com*

I too am looking for protected 18650 Li-ion batteries and discovered the All-Battery.com four (4) battery special last week. After several frustrating attempts to verify the outside diameter of their 18650's via email, I picked up the phone and called them directly. What I learned is quite interesting. 

Tenergy/All-Battery.com carries 18650's made by two different manufacturers - LG Electronics and their own house brand manufactured to their specifications in China. The very knowledgeable customer service representative that I spoke to informed me that Tenergy/All-Battery was currently out of their house brand protected 18650's. If you place an order on-line today, you will receive the LG protected 18650's. They measure 18.6mm in diameter - probably too big for most wide body lights. 

Now for the really interesting part. According to the Tenergy Rep, their house-brand protected 18650 batteries will measure 18mm in diameter plus or minus 0.2mm actual. Based on this information, I faxed Tenergy a purchase order for six (6) All-Battery branded 18650's to test. They agreed to refund my purchase if the batteries are larger than 18.2mm. It could take up to twelve (12) weeks for All-Battery to receive their next shipment of house-brand batteries from China however. 

Once I receive my Tenergy/All-Battery 18650's, I'll post my findings on CPF.


----------



## Lips (Mar 7, 2006)

*Re: protected 18650 from All-Battery.com*



Paul_in_Maryland said:


> CPFer MuleSkinner bought eight of their protected 18650 cells, then sold them in this thread, where you can see photos. He sold them after learning that they might not be able to power a Carley 1499 lamp.



I bought two of these in the sale.

Just charged them up and they will run the ROP LE HOLA. AW's protected cells won't run eihter ROP bulb...

They have the vents on top but they may not be fully protected after all?

CY have you checked yours out yet...


----------



## cy (Mar 7, 2006)

*Re: protected 18650 from All-Battery.com*

mine runs all 18650 led lights including U2 perfectly. sorry don't have a incand 18650 to test with


----------



## Lurveleven (Mar 7, 2006)

*Re: protected 18650 from All-Battery.com*

I don't think those LG cells are protected, there is not mention of any protection on this page, and that are the same cells as MuleSkinner was selling.

Sigbjoern


----------



## Paul_in_Maryland (Mar 7, 2006)

*Re: protected 18650 from All-Battery.com*

I was under the impression that the LGs were the protected brand sold by e-lectronics (CPF's Mark) here. I read somewhere that they're rated for 1.5C. But I don't see LG in his photo on that page.


----------



## Lips (Mar 7, 2006)

*Re: protected 18650 from All-Battery.com*

I can use them either way but from the sales thread felt as though they were fully protected for overcharge and overdishcharge. Wonder if buyers should at least be notified they may not be fully protected... :thinking:


----------



## cy (Mar 7, 2006)

*Re: protected 18650 from All-Battery.com*



Lurveleven said:


> I don't think those LG cells are protected, there is not mention of any protection on this page, and that are the same cells as MuleSkinner was selling.
> 
> Sigbjoern


opsss thought these were protected????


----------



## MSI (Mar 7, 2006)

*Re: protected 18650 from All-Battery.com*



Paul_in_Maryland said:


> I was under the impression that the LGs were the protected brand sold by e-lectronics (CPF's Mark) here. I read somewhere that they're rated for 1.5C. But I don't see LG in his photo on that page.


 
LG cells are cells made by LG Chemical, as far as I know you will not find LG cells with PCB protection.


----------



## jtice (Mar 7, 2006)

*Re: protected 18650 from All-Battery.com*

LG cells are ONLY thermal protected,
no over/under discharge protection.


----------



## TinderBox (UK) (Mar 7, 2006)

*Re: protected 18650 from All-Battery.com*

dont protected cells have a button on top, the cells in the picture on my link dont.

anyone know.

regards.


----------



## greenLED (Mar 8, 2006)

*Re: protected 18650 from All-Battery.com*

I have some Pila batts, which are protected, and they don't have a button top like alkies or NiMH's.


----------



## Lips (Mar 8, 2006)

*Re: protected 18650 from All-Battery.com*

*Web site claims full Protection*

$23.79 for four batteries with full protection  

Mine Power up ROPLE HOLA


Specs say:here 

FEATURES AND BENEFITS
- Lithium Ion 18650 cylindrical rechargeable batteries 
- 3.7V 2200mAh high capacity
- Higher energy density and lower weight than other types rechargeable batteries
- Manufactured under ISO9001-2000 to assure quality
- Internal PCB protects against under and over charging- low voltage 2.8, high voltage 4.2.


----------



## Paul_in_Maryland (Mar 8, 2006)

*Re: protected 18650 from All-Battery.com*

Thanks. The 1.5C discharge rate is not quite up to Pila/Wolf Eyes/Microfire's 2C threshold, but it makes these cells more suitable than AW's 1.3C for hotwires. I can't wait for someone to confirm that they can power a Surefire P91 with a single click. If so, their low price would offset the cost of TranquillityBase's 2x18650 body.

I assume that these specs describe the vendor's home brand, and that LG cells are no longer being substituted.

The button at the + end is generously high. Perhaps the LT-200 charger requires a button this high to make good contact.

I'm confused about the cutoff voltage for overdischarge. Is it 2.8V or 3V?


----------



## Lips (Mar 8, 2006)

*Re: protected 18650 from All-Battery.com*

Correction

Mine are the pink ones in this thread. They do not appear to be protected therefore the reason for powering the ROPLE HOLA. 

I ordered some of the blue protected and will try them and report back...


----------



## LumenHound (Mar 8, 2006)

*Re: protected 18650 from All-Battery.com*



Lips said:


> I ordered some of the blue protected and will try them and report back...



Thanks Lips. 
It would still be a great safety improvement even if the blue cells only worked with the low output 11 watt Pelican bulb.


----------



## greyfox (Mar 8, 2006)

*Re: protected 18650 from All-Battery.com*

Don't forget they have 6% coupon code "tenergybattery"

enjoy


----------



## AZLight (Mar 8, 2006)

*Re: protected 18650 from All-Battery.com*



greyfox said:


> Don't forget they have 6% coupon code "tenergybattery"
> 
> enjoy




Doh!! Now you tell me. Got my order in a couple of hours ago.


----------



## greyfox (Mar 9, 2006)

*Re: protected 18650 from All-Battery.com*

I just found this company also carry Rchargeable CR123A 900mah, the highest capacity for RCR123Aso far in my knowledge. anybody tried?


----------



## Paul_in_Maryland (Mar 10, 2006)

*Re: protected 18650 from All-Battery.com*

The $14.95 TL-200 fast charger was designed for the All-Battery 18650 cells. If anyone wants one, I'll sell mine for $15 shipped (US or Canada). The LEDs indicate that it's working, but I can't get it to charge my Wolf Eyes or AW protected cells; evidently it works only with All-Battery's 1x650 cells, whose positive end has an extra-tall button. In other respects, it's very much like the Wolf Eyes / Pila fast charger, with indepedent charging channels, each with its own LED at the + end.

The charger is unique in that it has a pair of flip-up, spring-loaded metal contacts that shorten the chamber to charge 18500 and 17500 cells. However, with a 1.5-amp charging rate, I'd be wary of charging cells of this length in this charger.


----------



## greyfox (Mar 23, 2006)

*Re: protected 18650 from All-Battery.com*

I tried to place an order but they are out of stock. I called them and was told there is 4000 pieces coming in next week.


----------



## TinderBox (UK) (Mar 23, 2006)

*Re: protected 18650 from All-Battery.com*

when i first asked for a quote for post and packing for 4x 18650 2200 cells to be shipped to the UK.

their online system wanted $30.00.

so i sent them an e-mail to see if i could get the postage cheaper, they said it would be $18.50.

so i asked them again if they could send it in a USPS airmail envelope for $5.25, they said they would have to check with the post office.

then i got an e-mail back from them saying i could have x 18650 2200 cells to be shipped to the UK for only $6.25.

that`s quite a saving.

if you dont ask you don`t get.

regards.


----------



## MikeHunt79 (Mar 23, 2006)

*Re: protected 18650 from All-Battery.com*

nice one tinderbox... so you got 4 x protected 18650's for less than $30 then? bargin if you ask me. I'll have to send 'em an e-mail aswell.


----------



## TinderBox (UK) (Mar 23, 2006)

*Re: protected 18650 from All-Battery.com*

dont forget at that postage price there`s no guarantee that you will recieve your order.

you pays your money and you take`s your chance.

All-Battery.com seem like a good company, most places would have told me to f**k off.

just have to wait till they come into stock.

regards.


----------



## MikeHunt79 (Mar 24, 2006)

*Re: protected 18650 from All-Battery.com*

I sent 'em an e-mail... none in stock right now, so I'll wait aswell... I did get quoted $11 for shipping though, but I think that's because it's airmail. I can carry on with my unprotected 18650's until the protected's come back in stock.


----------



## greyfox (Mar 26, 2006)

*Re: protected 18650 from All-Battery.com*

Anybody Know if I can use regular AC-DC /200mA adaptor to charge this batteries?


----------



## TinderBox (UK) (Apr 5, 2006)

*Re: protected 18650 from All-Battery.com*

well i got my order confirmed.

I even asked them for an 6% discount

and I managed to get the shipping from $30.00 then to $18.50 and now to $6.25.

4 x protected 18650 2200mah at 18.3mm shipped to the UK for a total of $28.61.

if you don`t ask you don`t get.

regards.

my e-mail from all-battery.com is below.


*********************************************************

Dear John,

Here is the new invoice for you:

4 Li-Ion 18650 3.7V 2200 mAh rechargeable battery with protection PCB $23.79

6% Discount ($1.43)

Shipping by *Global Priority Mail - Flat-rate Envelope (Small) $6.25*
*Total $28.61*

*Please send the total amount via paypal to us at [email protected]. *

*Please copy the invoice section in your payment notes.*

*Thanks,*

*Customer Serivce*
*All-Battery.com

*********************************************************
*


----------



## MattK (Apr 6, 2006)

*Re: protected 18650 from All-Battery.com*

Hi folks,

I have the same protected 2200mah cells in-stock and for sale for $5.95 each (4 is therefore $23.80), buy 5+ and they're $5.65 each. I buy from the same factory so specs are identical. LINK

We ship worldwide. The cart will calculate based on Air Parcel, not flat-mailers, so those who need international shipment gia GPM mailer need only email us. All international shipments are insured.

We also have UNrprotected LG 2400mah cells in stock as well.


----------



## Paul_in_Maryland (Apr 6, 2006)

*Re: protected 18650 from All-Battery.com*

Matt,
I see that these cells are 68mm long. That makes them a perfect fit for Wolf Eyes and Pila bodies. Thanks for the link.


----------



## Lips (Apr 8, 2006)

*Re: protected 18650 from All-Battery.com*

I got my blue "*fully protected*" cells in form All-battery.com 

4 Li-Ion 18650 3.7v 2200 mah rechargeable battery with protection PCB
Li18650-2200-4 $23.79 ship $5.05 

Link :here

They run the ROP HOLA

I accidentally charged one with a pack charger (12.6 setting) and stopped it at 4.33v 

Does the battery not cutting off at 4.2v sound like they are fully protected?


----------



## LumenHound (Apr 8, 2006)

*Re: protected 18650 from All-Battery.com*

The overcharge protection cutoff point is likely 4.35 volts. This is the value most single cell PCB's use.


----------



## LumenHound (Apr 8, 2006)

*Re: protected 18650 from All-Battery.com*



Lips said:


> I got my blue "*fully protected*" cells in form All-battery.com
> 
> They run the ROP HOLA


How many minutes of run time do they give on the 24 watt ROP HI bulb before one of the cell's over discharge protection circuit kicks in? What about the LOW bulb run time?
How toasty warm are the cells after 15 minutes on the HI bulb?


----------



## vortechs (Apr 9, 2006)

*Re: protected 18650 from All-Battery.com*



MattK said:


> Hi folks,
> 
> I have the same protected 2200mah cells in-stock and for sale for $5.95 each (4 is therefore $23.80), buy 5+ and they're $5.65 each. I buy from the same factory so specs are identical. LINK
> 
> ...



Hi Matt, 

I looked at the BatteryJunction.com website. The protected 18650 Li-Ions are only $5.95 each, which seems like a great bargain, but the shipping cost does make them a bit more expensive. I tried putting one or two of them in my cart and looked at the shipping charge and it was $6.53. Is there a low cost shipping option for small orders, or should I shop around the website to see if there is anything else I could use?


----------



## MattK (Apr 9, 2006)

*Re: protected 18650 from All-Battery.com*



vortechs said:


> Hi Matt,
> 
> I looked at the BatteryJunction.com website. The protected 18650 Li-Ions are only $5.95 each, which seems like a great bargain, but the shipping cost does make them a bit more expensive. I tried putting one or two of them in my cart and looked at the shipping charge and it was $6.53. Is there a low cost shipping option for small orders, or should I shop around the website to see if there is anything else I could use?



Hi vortechs,

The shipping is weight/zip code based so that $6.53 is based on UPS Ground up to 16oz to your zip code. At this time we don't have a setup for very low weight packages (under 12oz) because it's very time consuming to build a shipping table for USPS First class (the only sub 1lb service) and we just haven't had a chance to work on that yet.

For the moment you could either 'fill up' the pound or if you shoot me an email after placing the order I can credit back the difference and ship 1st class. Of course my opinion is that you should buy more stuff!!!! 

Best,
/MattK


----------



## vortechs (Apr 10, 2006)

*Re: protected 18650 from All-Battery.com*



MattK said:


> Hi vortechs,
> 
> The shipping is weight/zip code based so that $6.53 is based on UPS Ground up to 16oz to your zip code. At this time we don't have a setup for very low weight packages (under 12oz) because it's very time consuming to build a shipping table for USPS First class (the only sub 1lb service) and we just haven't had a chance to work on that yet.
> 
> ...



Hi Matt, 

Thanks for offering to make special arrangements for a small order. Since you've taken the effort to reply and to be accomodating, I just ordered two of your protected 18650 3.7V 2200 mAh Li-Ion's at the nice price of $5.95 each ($11.90 total). Please ship them using the most reasonably priced method that makes sense to use for an order of this size/weight. I'm not in a hurry and I have a locking mailbox, so USPS would work. 

If I had needed more than four, your quantity discounts would have come in handy: $5.65 each for 5-19, $5.35 for 20-49, or $5.05 each for 50 or more. I suspect most people on CPF are like me and only need a few, so making arrangements for small orders would be nice. Perhaps somebody here will be shopping for replacement batteries for an organization and remember you. 

I noticed that you had Powerizer RCR123A 3.0V Li-Ion batteries for only $2.95 each. I was also impressed about the amount of technical info you included about those batteries. The notes about the peak voltage and potential problems with incandescent bulbs were very nice to see. It is good to see a dealer that is upfront with important information about their products. 

Thanks for your time and personal attention.


----------



## Lips (Apr 10, 2006)

*Re: protected 18650 from All-Battery.com*

Test finished with AW’s DMM help! Used protection glass, thick gloves/clothing etc

Checked again and they measured 6.4mm, a little smaller than the official unprotected ones, even by eye.

10amp test done and readings were all over the place because of quick touch. Many readings over 10, up to 15.9. 

Maybe *AW* can expound on the test… *Doesn’t* look like these are Protected after all…


Edit: 6.4 not 64.4


----------



## TinderBox (UK) (Apr 10, 2006)

*Re: protected 18650 from All-Battery.com*

I have four of these cell on order, they better be protected or their will be trouble.

according to All-Battery.com these cell are only supposed to support discharges of upto 1.5amp and you are saying you got it upto 15.9 amps.

have you tried a discharge test, to see how low the voltage will go before the so-called protection kicks in.

regards.


----------



## Lips (Apr 10, 2006)

*Re: protected 18650 from All-Battery.com*

I am on the 1st charge and used the light for beam shots only. Have not run them down yet. They are also 6.4 mm which KennyJ pointed out to me here that they don't appear long enough for protected.

Hope someone else can do some testing on these. I don't trust them and hope everyone is carefull if they get any...


----------



## TinderBox (UK) (Apr 10, 2006)

*Re: protected 18650 from All-Battery.com*

mabe "MattK" will know somthing about the protection PCB since he said he was selling the same cells.

I should get my cells somtime this week.

regards.


----------



## N162E (Apr 10, 2006)

*Re: protected 18650 from All-Battery.com*



MattK said:


> Hi folks,
> 
> I have the same protected 2200mah cells in-stock and for sale for $5.95 each (4 is therefore $23.80), buy 5+ and they're $5.65 each. I buy from the same factory so specs are identical. LINK
> 
> ...


Will you apply solder tabs per customer specs? If so, do you charge and how much?


----------



## vortechs (Apr 11, 2006)

*Re: protected 18650 from All-Battery.com*



Lips said:


> Test finished with AW’s DMM help! Used protection glass, thick gloves/clothing etc
> 
> Checked again and they measured 64.4mm, a little smaller than the official unprotected ones, even by eye.
> 
> ...



Hi Lips, 

Are you saying that the tests on the 18650's from All-Battery.com (which are advertised as protected) don't seem to show the presence of any protection circuit at all? 

It appears that MattK might want to do some tests on his as well.


----------



## MikeHunt79 (Apr 11, 2006)

*Re: protected 18650 from All-Battery.com*

Mine 18650's arrived today, and I think they are protected... I say this because you can feel the metal strip going up the side of the battery. When I've run one down, I'll let you lot know if they cut off at 3v like they should.


----------



## TinderBox (UK) (Apr 12, 2006)

*Re: protected 18650 from All-Battery.com*

just got my 18650 from All-Battery.com

they are 65mm long and have.

"TENERGY Li-ion 18650 3.6V 2200mAh" written on them

their appears to be a strip running from the top to the bottom, but this could be a wrapper join.

the first cell i tried was 3.8v out of the shrink wrap.

I now have the first cell in my VB-16 on full power to see if it shuts itself down.

regards.


----------



## Lips (Apr 12, 2006)

*Re: protected 18650 from All-Battery.com*

 

$5 says it overdischarges (hopefully safely  )


----------



## TinderBox (UK) (Apr 12, 2006)

*Re: protected 18650 from All-Battery.com*

well the 18650 is down to 2.8volts the last time i checked it, and the output is getting very low, their website says 3.0volt low cutoff, it might be 2.5volts.

lets see what happens.

regards.


----------



## TinderBox (UK) (Apr 12, 2006)

*Re: protected 18650 from All-Battery.com*

I have just taken one of the so-called protected cells down to 1.4volts using an 2.4volt 1.2amp krypton bulb and the cell did not shut down.

their does appear to be a strip running down the cells, but what it does i do not know.:huh2:

regards.


----------



## cmacclel (Apr 12, 2006)

*Re: protected 18650 from All-Battery.com*

So called protected is right. Now someone needs to overcharge one and burn there house down as they thought they where protected.


mac


----------



## LumenHound (Apr 12, 2006)

*Re: protected 18650 from All-Battery.com*



Lips said:


> $5 says it overdischarges (hopefully safely  )


  We have a winner!

Is there any chance, albeit slim, they may have shipped the wrong cells that have a wrapper similar to the 68 mm long "protected" cells listed on the website?

I guess I'm just grasping at straws here, I had high hopes that these cells would pan out OK.
You can imagine how many orders would have come flooding in if these had turned out to be the real deal. 

*MattK*: If you have some of these "protected" cells from the same factory in stock what exact size are they?


----------



## Bogus1 (Apr 12, 2006)

*Re: protected 18650 from All-Battery.com*

Tenergy 900mah 3.0V R123s at $4.39 sounds too good to be true as well. 

I'm confused how they are located in Silicone Valley and having these issues. Seems there's some pretty severe liability.


----------



## Lips (Apr 13, 2006)

*Re: protected 18650 from All-Battery.com*

I believe we should call this one definitive after that test. :laughing: 


I had to wait two weeks for my cells. There just not protected... Email off to All-battery.com...


----------



## TinderBox (UK) (Apr 13, 2006)

*Re: so-called protected 18650 cells from All-Battery.com*

has anybody heard back from All-battery.com about the protection PCB.

I have sent them three e-mail without an reply.

I also sent a PM to MattK, to see if he could shed any light on the protection PCB yesterday as yet without an reply.

regards.


----------



## TinderBox (UK) (Apr 13, 2006)

*Re: so-called protected 18650 cells from All-Battery.com*

just got an e-mail from All-Battery.com

*********************************************************

Dear John,


We think we have sent the right batteries to you. The color is blue, and it is marked Li-ion 3.7 V 2200mah. The acctuall length is 65mm.

Since these cells are new arrival at our store, our technician is doing the test to see if they have the protection function. He will send you an email later.

Sorry for the delay.

Customer Service
All-Battery.com


*********************************************************

just have to wait and see what happens.


----------



## LumenHound (Apr 13, 2006)

*Re: so-called protected 18650 cells from All-Battery.com*

So All-Battery didn't even bother to test the big new feature on this Li-ion rechargeable battery they sell before passing them on to unsuspecting consumers??

Dat aint no good. :thumbsdow 

MattK may not visit CPF on a daily basis and see that he's got a PM so an email will likely get a faster reply.


----------



## TinderBox (UK) (Apr 13, 2006)

*Re: so-called protected 18650 cells from All-Battery.com*

got another e-mail.

*********************************************************

Hi, John,

Sorry, it is marked " TENERGY Li-ion 18650 3.6 V 2200mAh" not 3.7V.

The technician will send you another email later.

Regards,

Customer Serivce
All-Battery.com

*********************************************************


----------



## TinderBox (UK) (Apr 14, 2006)

*Re: so-called protected 18650 cells from All-Battery.com*

another e-mail

*********************************************************

John:

Thanks for your Email and explain.

We are currently testing these cells in our manufacturer.

Since it is the first generation products, it might have problem. Our
2nd generation products is on the way to USA Warehouse. We will send
them to you for free as replacement.

Take a look at the picture of 2nd generation product.







Let me know if you have any question

Grace
all-battery.com

*********************************************************


----------



## TooManyGizmos (Apr 14, 2006)

*Re: so-called protected 18650 cells from All-Battery.com*

Uhhmmm.....so what did this really tell you , and how did the pic help ?


----------



## TinderBox (UK) (Apr 14, 2006)

I think it means "DON`T SUE US" for selling faulty battery`s.

have a look at the shiny new ones were going to send you for free.:naughty:

regards.


----------



## London Lad (Apr 14, 2006)

:lolsign:


----------



## Lips (Apr 14, 2006)

I have new ones coming also... 2nd Generation... 2 - 3 weeks



:candle:


----------



## vortechs (Apr 14, 2006)

Hi MattK, 

My two 18650's arrived in the mail today. Thanks for the fast shipping. 

They have blue casings marked "TENERGY Li-ion 18650 3.6V 2200mAh" and the actual length is 65mm, which is exactly how the ones from All-Battery.com were described in this thread. 

Please don't take time away from your holiday weekend just for me, but when you have time to deal with this issue, please let us know whether your supply has the same problems as those from All-Battery. I'll avoid overcharging and overdischarging them until I hear from you. Thanks.


----------



## TinderBox (UK) (Apr 16, 2006)

All-Battery.com has just added this to their TENERGY Li-ion 18650 3.6V 2200mAh page.

***********************************************************

*Cautions:*
- *Use special caution when working with Li-ion cells, they are very sensitive to charging characteristics and may explode if mis-handled.*
- Make sure user has enough knowledge on Li-Ion rechargeable batteries in charging, discharging and assembly before use.
- We are not resposible for any damage caused by misuse or mishandling of thses Li-Ion batteries

***********************************************************


----------



## picard (Apr 16, 2006)

would this battery fit the gladius, pentagon, and new night ops falcata 9v xenon?


----------



## theamazingrando (Apr 17, 2006)

I feel like I'm missing something in this thread. 

Both catalog pages linked above describe the product for sale as:

"4 Li-Ion 18650 3.7V 2200 mAh rechargeable battery with protection PCB"

Now, maybe this is just a case of poor grammar (or English as a Second Language) on the part of the seller...but this desciption seems to specify a battery pack containing 4 cells in parallel with a protection circuit attached to them. There's no mention of whether this is a kit (suggested by the photo) or an assembled pack...and I acknowledge that this is confusing... However, I would definitely not expect to receive 4 "protected" cells, each with their own interbal protection circuit, if I ordered an item with this description.

I assume you guys have some additional information from the seller--but I'm jsut confused by the discussion!


----------



## TinderBox (UK) (Apr 17, 2006)

if you look at the picture in the link, all things will be made clear.

http://www.all-battery.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=461

regards.


----------



## MikeHunt79 (Apr 17, 2006)

Oh noes! It looks like they are not protected then... I've now sent them and e-mail, so hopefully they'll know that it wasn't just tinderboxes batteries that are unprotected.


----------



## Amonra (Apr 17, 2006)

TinderBox (UK) said:


> if you look at the picture in the link, all things will be made clear.
> 
> http://www.all-battery.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=461
> 
> regards.



I do not think i catch your point. i see nothing strange in the picture


----------



## Rommul (Apr 17, 2006)

Amonra said:


> I do not think i catch your point. i see nothing strange in the picture



He is trying to say they are selling four loose cells not a pack.


----------



## Brighteyez (Apr 17, 2006)

I think most of the merchants who have batteries made under their own brands do speak another language (presumably some dialect of Chinese) as their primary language and English as an adapted language. And as I have been over the all-battery/Tenergy, I can attest that the language of choice over there appears to be one of the Chinese dialects (probably Mandarin, as they said that they were from mainland China.)

On the other hand, I don't think I would have interpreted the image or the description as a battery composed of 4 cells in parallel. 



theamazingrando said:


> "4 Li-Ion 18650 3.7V 2200 mAh rechargeable battery with protection PCB"
> 
> Now, maybe this is just a case of poor grammar (or English as a Second Language) on the part of the seller...but this desciption seems to specify a battery pack containing 4 cells in parallel with a protection circuit attached to them. There's no mention of whether this is a kit (suggested by the photo) or an assembled pack...and I acknowledge that this is confusing...


----------



## vortechs (Apr 18, 2006)

theamazingrando said:


> I feel like I'm missing something in this thread.
> 
> Both catalog pages linked above describe the product for sale as:
> 
> ...



If you read the entire webpage, you will find the following (rather detailed) description of the item: 


Detailed Description
*FEATURES AND BENEFITS*
- Lithium Ion 18650 cylindrical rechargeable batteries 
- 3.7V 2200mAh high capacity
- Higher energy density and lower weight than other types rechargeable batteries
- Manufactured under ISO9001-2000 to assure quality
- Internal PCB protects against under and over charging- low voltage 2.8, high voltage 4.2.
_- Battery tested based on International Electrotechnical Commission (IEC) standard to ensure capacity, quality and life time 

_*Applications:*
- Building Laptop Battery
- Building portable power device needing high energy density and low wieght

*Cautions:*
- *Use special caution when working with Li-ion cells, they are very sensitive to charging characteristics and may explode if mis-handled.*
- Make sure user has enough knowledge on Li-Ion rechargeable batteries in charging, discharging and assembly before use.
- We are not resposible for any damage caused by misuse or mishandling of thses Li-Ion batteries

*Product Specifications:
*_- Capacity* Nominal 2200 mAh, Minimum 2150 mAh 
- Dimensions: 
Diameter 18+/10.2 mm
Height 68+/- 0.2mm 
- Weight (Typical) Approx. 46 g yes
- Nominal Voltage: Average 3.7V 
- Cut-off Voltage: 3.0V
- Internal Impedance: less or equal to 180 milliohm (with PTC) 
- Cycle Performance: 90% of initial capacity at 400 cycles 
- Cycle life: > 500 cycles
- Charge: Current = 0.5C mA Voltage = 4.2 V End Current = 0.01 mA 
- Discharge: Current = 0.5C mA End Voltage = 3.0V
- Max. Charging current: 1.5C ma
- __Max. Discharging current 1.5C ma (for continuous discharge) _


----------



## theamazingrando (Apr 18, 2006)

Brighteyez said:


> I think most of the merchants who have batteries made under their own brands do speak another language (presumably some dialect of Chinese) as their primary language and English as an adapted language. And as I have been over the all-battery/Tenergy, I can attest that the language of choice over there appears to be one of the Chinese dialects (probably Mandarin, as they said that they were from mainland China.)
> 
> On the other hand, I don't think I would have interpreted the image or the description as a battery composed of 4 cells in parallel.


 
I'm sure you guys are right on this (and I did note the four loose cells in the photo), but the verbage seems to indicate a four cell battery (it uses the B word) with a single protection PCB-- "4 Li ion[cells]" making up a "battery" with "[singular]protection PCB" --The fact that the site also sells seperate protection circuits encourages me in this view.

Now, you folks have received your orders, so you obviously would have noticed if it came with a seperate protection PCB... I just can't see by reading the description why I would expect the cells to be protected. 

It must be the language barrier. I'm probably also too much of a literal lexical grammarian.


----------



## theamazingrando (Apr 18, 2006)

vortechs said:


> If you read the entire webpage, you will find the following (rather detailed) description of the item:
> 
> Ah yes, that is rather detailed--thank you!
> 
> This is an amazing price for protected cells...if they are protected.


----------



## Phaserburn (Apr 18, 2006)

So, who has the best price for protected 18650s where the circuit functionality has been verified?


----------



## TinderBox (UK) (Apr 18, 2006)

I suppose AW is your best bet at the moment, if you not prepared to wait and see the outcome of this thread.

AW`s thread link.

https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/97268

regards.


----------



## vortechs (Apr 19, 2006)

The thought did occur to me that the all-battery web site might be talking about a group of four 18650's with a single protection PCB, however the picture didn't show that and the description says "*internal* PCB", furthermore all of the statistics given, such as dimensions and capacity, are all obviously for a single 18650 rather than a group of four wired together. 

However, the listing and description on the Battery Junction website (http://www.batteryjunction.com/186502200pcb.html), is more clearly a single 18650, since at Battery Junction you can order any quantity you want, rather than groups of four. Below is the Battery Junction listing for them (the formatting doesn't show up as well here as it does on the actual website). Note that this description is virtually identical to the one at all-battery, so it seems likely that they were both copied from the same source, probably data from the manufacturer. At least one thing in the description is incorrect, since the length of the cells is 65mm rather than 68+/- 0.2mm. This does raise the question of whether the missing 3mm is where the internal protection PCB is supposed to be and they somehow got left off of this batch, or perhaps the manufacturer shipped the wrong item. MattK (from Battery Junction) has been pretty good on the forums, so I'm sure he'll get things sorted out eventually. 

Here is the description of the item on the Battery Junction website: 

*Li-Ion 18650 3.7V 2200 mAh rechargeable battery with protection PCB*

*Li-Ion 18650 3.7V 2200 mAh rechargeable battery with protection PCB**
Item#:* 186502200pcb
*Availability:* Usually ships the next business day.*
Price:* $5.95*
Enter Quantity:**
Quantity Discounts!*[font=arial, helvetica]
1[/font][font=arial, helvetica] - 4[/font]




[font=arial, helvetica]$5.95 ea.[/font]






[font=arial, helvetica]
5[/font][font=arial, helvetica] - 19[/font]



[font=arial, helvetica]$5.65 ea.[/font][font=arial, helvetica]
20[/font][font=arial, helvetica] - 49[/font]



[font=arial, helvetica]$5.35 ea.[/font][font=arial, helvetica]
50[/font][font=arial, helvetica] +[/font]



[font=arial, helvetica]$5.05 ea.[/font] 
[font=arial, helvetica]*
FEATURES AND BENEFITS*
Lithium Ion 18650 cylindrical rechargeable batteries 
- 3.7V 2200mAh high capacity
- Higher energy density and lower weight than other types rechargeable batteries
- Manufactured under ISO9001-2000 to assure quality
- *Internal PCB protects against under and over charging- low voltage 2.8, high voltage 4.2.*
_- Battery tested based on International Electrotechnical Commission (IEC) standard to ensure capacity, quality and life time 

_*Applications:*
- Building Laptop Battery
- Building portable power device needing high energy density and low wieght

*Cautions:*
- *Use special caution when working with Li-ion cells, they are very sensitive to charging characteristics and may explode if mis-handled.*
- Make sure user has enough knowledge on Li-Ion rechargeable batteries in charging, discharging and assembly before use.
- We are not resposible for any damage caused by misuse or mishandling of thses Li-Ion batteries

*Product Specifications:
*_- Capacity* Nominal 2200 mAh, Minimum 2150 mAh 
- Dimensions: 
Diameter 18+/- 0.2 mm
Height 68+/- 0.2mm 
- Weight (Typical) Approx. 46 g yes
- Nominal Voltage: Average 3.7V 
- Cut-off Voltage: 3.0V
- Internal Impedance: less or equal to 180 milliohm (with PTC) 
- Cycle Performance: 90% of initial capacity at 400 cycles 
- Cycle life: > 500 cycles
- Charge: Current = 0.5C mA Voltage = 4.2 V End Current = 0.01 mA 
- Discharge: Current = 0.5C mA End Voltage = 3.0V
- Max. Charging current: 1.5C ma
- __Max. Discharging current 1.5C ma (for continuous discharge)_[/font]


----------



## vortechs (Apr 23, 2006)

Has there been any new news on the protected TENERGY 18650 cells from All-Battery.com?


----------



## TinderBox (UK) (Apr 25, 2006)

I e-mailed them yesterday and they said it would be 1 to 2 weeks before the new battery`s are in stock.

regards.


----------



## Paul_in_Maryland (Apr 28, 2006)

Phaserburn said:


> So, who has the best price for protected 18650s where the circuit functionality has been verified?


Possibly CPF's Mark of e-lectronics.


----------



## vortechs (May 4, 2006)

I've decided to test the protection circuit in my 18650's from BatteryJunction, to see if they have the same issues as the ones from All-Battery or if they are the "2nd generation" cells. 

I plan to run one in a MicroFire M2L and check the battery voltage periodically. The MicroFire M2L has a 5W LED module regulated to take 3.6-6V input but I'm not sure how it will respond to voltages lower than 3.6V. 

1) Can somebody who is knowledgable about Li-Ion's let me know what the lowest voltage I can safely go to without damaging the cell? The protection circuit is supposed to cut off at 2.8V, so I don't have to go much below that, but I'd like to know where the lower safe boundary is. I noticed that TinderBox (UK) took one of the All-Battery cells all the way down to 1.4 volts. 

2) Are there any problems with this plan or things I should be careful about? 

Thanks for any help.


----------



## LumenHound (May 4, 2006)

Different manufacturers give different low voltage cut-off points for their cells.

Panasonic doesn't want users to discharge their cells below 3.0 volts but actually show 2.3 volts as the point where overdischarge protection kicks in.
Panasonic Overcharge/Overdischarge/Overcurrent Safety Circuits 

Molicel states a discharge voltage cut-off of 2.5 volts.
Molicel 18650 datasheet 

Varta lists their low voltage cut-off as 2.75 volts.
Varta 18650 datasheet 

I would think that if the overdischarge protection doesn't kick in on your Battery Station cells by the time they discharge down to 2.5 volts then your cells don't have any protection circuitry in them.


----------



## SilverFox (May 4, 2006)

Hello Vortechs,

The safe low voltage for a Li-Ion cell depends on the current draw. At higher current levels, you can go a bit lower in voltage. Damage to the cell chemistry is done when you go below 3 volts, but the real damage occurs at around 2 volts. If the cell is left at low voltages for any length of time, there is risk in re-charging it.

I always encourage people to charge often and run down to the low voltage cut off. That way the cut off is available in case you forget, but you aren't using it every cycle.

A point of reference...

AW cells, Pila cells, and Wolf Eyes cells, that I have tested, have a low voltage cut off of 2.3 volts under a 3 amp load.

Tom


----------



## vortechs (May 4, 2006)

I have experimented with one of my protected 18650 cells from BatteryJunction. The cell has a plain blue plastic outer case marked "TENERGY Li-ion 18650 3.6V 2200 mAh". 

I used a Fluke 79 series II multimeter to take voltage measurements. Fresh out of the manufacturer's wrapping the cell measured 3.914 Volts. I put the cell in a MicroFire M2L (5W LED light) and ran it at full brightness, turning it off every 6 minutes to remove the battery and check the voltage. After 30 minutes the cell voltage was down to 3.620V (although it came up to 3.683V after 5 minutes of rest). After 33 minutes of runtime the LED started strobing on the high brightness setting. I turned it off and checked the cell voltage and measured 3.550V (it came up to 3.598V after 5 minutes of rest). I changed the light to the low brightness setting (the M2L is a two stage light) and continued the test. At about 60 minutes of runtime (33 on high, 28 on low) the light went off. I immediately removed the cell and the voltage measured 2.799V (it came up to 2.880V after 5 minutes of rest). I put the cell back in and turned it on. It ran (on low) for 1 minute and 47 seconds before the light went off again. This time the cell voltage measured 2.684V (it come up to 2.828V after 5 minutes). I tried this 4 more times, each time the light only ran for less than a minute (on low) then turned off. The cell voltage measured immediately after each time the light turned off was: 2.741V, 2.784V, 2.707V, 2.720V, although each time the voltage would recover to a little over 2.8V (typically 2.828V) after a rest period. 

After the last rest period, I decided to check the current the LED was drawing on low. It read 0.27 amps at the tail (tailcap removed, measuring current from battery terminal to flashlight body). 

Conclusion: the low voltage protection on this cell seems to be functioning at 2.8V as per the advertised specification (or the MicroFire M2L itself is cutting out at 2.8V). [see Corrected Conclusion below]

If anyone has any additional tests they would suggest, please let me know. 

Note that I have not attempted to test for high voltage (overcharge) protection or protection against excessive current draw; I would prefer to leave that sort of testing to somebody who is more experienced.


*[edit: *
*Corrected Conclusion: *
*1) The regulator in the MicroFire M2L light assembly cuts out at 2.8V in the low brightness setting. *
*2) The 18650's from BatteryJunction are NOT protected against low voltage.]*


----------



## vortechs (May 4, 2006)

P.S. Thanks to LumenHound and SilverFox for their advice.


----------



## LumenHound (May 4, 2006)

The MicroFire M2L 5 watt led/reflector module has a built in regulator that works with any voltage between 3.7V to 6.0V. If the led strobed on high then the regulator may be what's cutting the flow of current from the battery and not any overdischarge circuitry built into the battery.

Can you test the battery again using an ordinary resistor or a plain old bulb from a 3D or 3C flashlight as the load?


----------



## vortechs (May 4, 2006)

LumenHound said:


> The MicroFire M2L 5 watt led/reflector module has a built in regulator that works with any voltage between 3.7V to 6.0V. If the led strobed on high then the regulator may be what's cutting the flow of current from the battery and not any overdischarge circuitry built into the battery.
> 
> Can you test the battery again using an ordinary resistor or a plain old bulb from a 3D or 3C flashlight as the load?


 
Yes, I knew about the built in regulator in the M2L, that was one of the reasons I mentioned the light I was using for the test. It happens to be the only light I have that will work with a 18650. I thought it was interesting that the high setting started strobing at about 3.6V but the low setting worked fine down to 2.8V. 

Thanks for recommending I try a different load. I searched in my pockets and came up with a JIL Intelli, so I removed the head, taped some contact wires to the nearly depleted 18650 battery and ran the JIL with it (with the multimeter in parallel). At the start of the test the 18650 was at 2.956V. It ran the JIL dimly for a little while but by the time the battery voltage was down to 2.7V, it wasn't working very well. 

Next, I searched around and came up with a incandescent penlight bulb marked "PHILIPS 222 2.25V 0.25AHK". While this probably isn't the best bulb for the test, I figured it would suffice with the battery already as depleted as it is. 

In just a couple minutes I took the battery down to below 2.2V under the load of this tiny incandescent bulb and there is no sign of the protection working. The voltage came back up to 2.680V after resting.

I tried it again and took the voltage all the way down to 1.5V under load. There was no sign of the protection circuit working. The voltage is currently recovering (2.450V and rising). 

New conclusions: 
1) The 18650's from BatteryJunction are *NOT* protected from undervoltage.
2) The voltage regulator in the MicroFire M2L LED assembley cuts out at 2.8V, so the light itself will protect against undervoltage.


----------



## vortechs (May 4, 2006)

The voltage of the 18650 has currently recovered up to 2.610V. 

Can anybody tell me if I should attempt to recharge this cell very carefully (e.g. use a long outdoor extension cord to place the cell connected to a Nano charger in the middle of the barren dirt of my backyard) or if I should simply dispose of it?


----------



## LumenHound (May 4, 2006)

If you do decide to recharge it with a Nano charger outside you might want to run it through another low and slow drain to 3.0 volts in a safe area to see if it's capacity has been crippled. I'd draw a ring on it with permanent marker so it won't get mixed up with the other identical 18650 you have.


----------



## LumenHound (May 4, 2006)

By the way vortechs, much thanks for doing the testing and posting your results. :goodjob: 

There are quite a few 18650 users, myself included, who are curious about this particular cell.

For what it's worth, I got a report today from one of the sellers of this unprotected battery that the protected version of this 18650 is still on the way from the manufacturer in Asia. I don't know if that means they are currently making them or if they have been made and are enroute.


----------



## SilverFox (May 4, 2006)

Hello Vortechs,

The longer the cell sits at low voltage the more damage is done.

Charge it immediately to at least 3.8 volts. Then you can stop the charge and contemplate your results...

Tom


----------



## vortechs (May 5, 2006)

Thanks SilverFox. 

I am currently charging it (on a long extension cord in my back yard).


----------



## SilverFox (May 5, 2006)

Hello Vortechs,

You should pause now, measure the voltage, and check the cell to see if it is getting hot.

If it is normal temperature and the voltage is up, it is probably OK.

Tom


----------



## vortechs (May 5, 2006)

Thanks again SilverFox, 

I put on my safety glasses, went outside, unpluged the extension cord and checked the cell. It was cool to the touch. 

I'm now using the very cheap analog multimeter I have at home so I don't trust the actual voltage measurements, but the voltage reading has definitely increased (by about 0.5V). 

The "2200 mAh" 18650 will probably charge very slowly using the Nano charger, but that is probably a good thing for now. I'll check it again soon.


----------



## TinderBox (UK) (May 5, 2006)

hello all

when i first got my 18650, I marked one cell as test, and took the voltage under load using a krypton torch bulb, all the way down to 1.4volts.

I then recharged the cell in my DSD charger without a problem.

Since i am waiting for my repacement 18650`s from All-Battery.com, I have just left cells alone.

I have just checked the voltage on my test cell using an DMM.

the test cell was at 4.06volts and the other two cells that i had not tested were also at 4.06volts as well.

and it`s been a few weeks since they were charged.

regards.


----------



## MattK (May 5, 2006)

CPF members,

I'm sorry it took me so long to post here but I don't check here very frequently and only became aware of this issue when vortechs emailed me. I immediately emailed the factory but never had the time to do any of my own testing.

I finally got a reply from the factory and basically they made a mistake. 

Our specification and contract for the cells clearly spelled out both PTC (over rate discharge)and PCB (under/over voltage cutoff) protection but the cells were not manufactured to spec and included only the PTC.

I'm truly sorry that the product was misrepresented to you - we did so in good faith, trusting in our manufacturer whom we believe made their error mistakenly - not maliciously. 

For those wondering - BatteryJunction.com has a special relationship with All-Battery. Basically - we're seperate companies with seperate ownership but we do some co-operative buying where it makes sense. In some markets this is called a 'buying group'. This is one of those products that we buy together.

I have discussed this situation with the owner of All-Battery and we've agreed to handle this situation as follows:

If you want to keep the cells we're both willing to offer you $1 back per cell in the form of store credit or a refund.

If anyone wants a return or exchange for this product that they purchased from BatteryJunction.com please contact me directly via EMAIL - not PM to arrange a RMA. My email is linked from my account.

If you purchased the cells from All-Battery please contact [email protected] directly and she will arrange an RMA.

We already have a new order that's in production with the manufacturer. Now that the this issue has been clarified the product will be right and we're expecting stock on the PTC and PCB protected batteries in the near future.

My webmaster has already edited the product listing on my site and All-Battery is going to edit their descriptions as soon as possible.

We apologize again for any confusion and problems that may have arisen.


----------



## vortechs (May 9, 2006)

Thanks Matt. 

I don't know if it's worth the shipping cost to return the one I tested for low voltage protection. Perhaps I should try to test the protection against drawing too much current (over rate discharge).


----------



## vortechs (May 9, 2006)

I've been slowly charging the cell I drained. I've been charging it a few hours a day using a Nano charger (the lowest current Li-Ion charger I have) when I have the time to keep an eye on it. So far the cell has not gotten hot or shown any signs of problems. Charging has been very slow on the low current Nano. I charged it up to 3.70V on the first day. After several more days of infrequent charging it is now up to 3.98V. 

I have been debating whether I should try to test the protection against over rate discharge. One of the earlier posts by Lips indicated that one cell delivered a lot of current (10 amps or so) without the protection cutting it off. 

Can anyone suggest a safe way to test the protection against over rate discharge? Perhaps if I use a long extension cords to create some resistance (and keep the cell as far away from me as possible) I could put on some gloves and complete the circuit with my new Fluke 77 and measure the current. I wonder how many extension cords it would take to get enough resistance to keep the current flow reasonable. My quick measurements seemed to indicate that an extension cord is about 0.3-0.5 ohms (for one side, so the full circuit would double that). Theoretically that should be enough to keep the current from a 4.0V battery at least somewhat reasonable.

Any advice from the experts would be appreciated. I'm not going to try something like this without some expert advice.


----------



## Lips (May 9, 2006)

MattK said:


> CPF members,
> 
> Our specification and contract for the cells clearly spelled out both PTC (over rate discharge)and PCB (under/over voltage cutoff) protection but the cells were not manufactured to spec and included only the PTC.




My cells came from All-Batter.com

On amp testing they were showing 15 + amps ... (over discharge)


----------



## vortechs (May 10, 2006)

Lips said:


> My cells came from All-Batter.com
> 
> On amp testing they were showing 15 + amps ... (over discharge)




Hi Lips, 

Would you please let me know how you were doing the amp (current) testing on the battery. 

Were you simply touching the probes of the digital multimeter (DMM) to the battery contacts quickly, or did you have something else in the circuit to provide some resistance? If my math is correct you must have had less than 0.28 ohms of resistance to get 15+ amps from a 4.2 volt battery. 

I've been thinking of trying to use an extension cord as part of my circuit, both to provide a little resistance to limit the maximum current and to provide some distance between me and the battery. I'm waiting for some advice from the pros before trying it.


----------



## LumenHound (May 10, 2006)

The PTC protection is what saves the cell from going into thermal runaway if the draw on the cell is more than the rated maximum discharge rate. For these cells that would be 1.5 X 2200 mA = 3.6 amperes.

If you were to put a 4.1 amp load (ROP HI bulb) on these cells the PTC on one of them would likely kick in to save the cell in about 5 or 6 minutes.

The problem with this kind of testing is that the PTC device has a limited number of times it will reset as the cell cools off and pushing the cell past it's rated maximum discharge is not good for the cell's chemistry. 
There's also the risk of having the PTC not reset after the cell cools down. 
If this occurs then don't blame the cell's PTC. It has after all, done it's job and prevented something very nasty from happening.

If you intend to put these cells into regular service then you need to consider this before testing the PTC in this fashion.


----------



## Lips (May 10, 2006)

Hi Vortechs

I simply used a DMM to touch the battery contacts. AW guided me through the test. My readings were all over because done quickly but many were real high...




vortechs said:


> Hi Lips,
> 
> Would you please let me know how you were doing the amp (current) testing on the battery.
> 
> ...


----------



## vortechs (May 11, 2006)

LumenHound said:


> The PTC protection is what saves the cell from going into thermal runaway if the draw on the cell is more than the rated maximum discharge rate. For these cells that would be 1.5 X 2200 mA = 3.6 amperes.
> 
> If you were to put a 4.1 amp load (ROP HI bulb) on these cells the PTC on one of them would likely kick in to save the cell in about 5 or 6 minutes.



Hi LumenHound, 

Does this mean that the protection against high current draw should only be expected to work after several minutes of current above the threshold? 

Would a very brief test, such as just touching the leads of a DDM to the ends of the battery, be insufficient for testing the protection against high current draw? I guess I was under the impression that a protected cell would cut off the current immediately (using electronics) if the current was too high (such as the cell terminals being shorted together), but I haven't really researched the details of protection circuits yet.


----------



## AW (May 11, 2006)

vortechs,

The over current protection from a PCB will normally kicks in within 20ms ( normal range is 11 - 20ms ). The PTC thermal protection ( for a 18650 ) 
is rated at 10A / 30s. Meaning a 10A load for 30 seconds will fuse the PTC.

Regards,
AW


----------



## LumenHound (May 11, 2006)

The PTC cut-out is dependant on the temperature of the cell. In the example I gave of pushing the cell past it's 1.5C maximum rating but not over 2.0C it may take 5 or 6 minutes of a continuous 4.1 amp draw for the cell to heat up to the point where the PTC would get involved. 
If you were to try to draw 5.5 amps (2.5C) then it would be reasonable to expect the PTC to stop current flow much faster. 
A quick 1 to 2 second short circuit would not heat up the cell to the point where the PTC would come into play.

I have a 18650 with a tripped PTC and it has rendered the cell useless. The PTC worked 3 times before it stopped resetting. Now I can't even draw 80 mA from the cell before it cuts out totally. It will not take a charge. 

Your impression of a _electronically_ protected cell is correct in that the current would be shut off if the current flow was too high but the PTC is a mechanical safety device who's function is related to the internal temperature of the cell while it's under load.


----------



## vortechs (May 11, 2006)

MattK said:


> I finally got a reply from the factory and basically they made a mistake. Our specification and contract for the cells clearly spelled out both PTC (over rate discharge)and PCB (under/over voltage cutoff) protection but the cells were not manufactured to spec and included only the PTC.





AW said:


> The over current protection from a PCB will normally kicks in within 20ms ( normal range is 11 - 20ms ). The PTC thermal protection ( for a 18650 ) is rated at 10A / 30s. Meaning a 10A load for 30 seconds will fuse the PTC.





LumenHound said:


> Your impression of a _electronically_ protected cell is correct in that the current would be shut off if the current flow was too high but the PTC is a mechanical safety device who's function is related to the internal temperature of the cell while it's under load.




Thanks AW and LumenHound, 

That explains things a lot better. So since the cells were mistakenly manufactured without the PCB, that means that they don't have any electrical protection at all against over discharge (low voltage), over charge (high voltage), or excessive current. However they still have the mechanical protection of a PTC which will shut the cell off when it gets too hot due to excessive current. 

Perhaps my earlier guess was correct and the 'missing' 3mm of length between the spec and the actual measurement is where the missing PCB would have gone. I wonder if the correctly manufactured 18650 cells will be a bit longer than these cells. That would make it easier to identify the difference. 

I guess I don't feel any need to test the mechanical PTC. 

I'll continue charging the 18650 I took down to low voltage. Then I'll compare it to the other one that I haven't used yet (charged to a similar voltage) and try to determine if the cell capacity was reduced by my experiment.


----------



## Lips (May 11, 2006)

I understand better now also.  


I was supposed to be getting replacement cells from all-battery in 2 - 3 weeks. 

That was about a month ago...


----------



## TinderBox (UK) (May 11, 2006)

looks like All-Battery.com have dropped the word "with protection pcb" from their main battery description.

but it still appears in the detailed description.

still waiting on my replacement battery`s

regards.


----------



## vortechs (May 12, 2006)

vortechs said:


> I'll continue charging the 18650 I took down to low voltage. Then I'll compare it to the other one that I haven't used yet (charged to a similar voltage) and try to determine if the cell capacity was reduced by my experiment.



The 18650 is up to 4.07V and the charging light on the Nano charger is now showing green. 

It took somewhat over 24 hours worth of charging with the Nano to get to this point. Since the Nano is a fairly low current charger (~150 mA), this isn't too surprising.


----------



## TinderBox (UK) (May 16, 2006)

anybody got their free replacement batterys form all-battery`s yet.

just sent the another e-mail to hurry them up.

regards.


----------



## vortechs (May 21, 2006)

vortechs said:


> The 18650 is up to 4.07V and the charging light on the Nano charger is now showing green.
> 
> It took somewhat over 24 hours worth of charging with the Nano to get to this point. Since the Nano is a fairly low current charger (~150 mA), this isn't too surprising.


 
I charged my other brand new 18650 (the unused one) up to 4.06V using my Nano charger and some wires. It didn't take nearly as long to charge as it took to charge the completely depleted one did, but it started with a partial charge (3.91V). 

The pair of them have been just sitting for a week or so and they are now both showing 4.04V. I haven't gotten around to comparing their runtime in the same light to see if the capacity of the one that I tested is reduced, but at least it seems to be holding a charge as well as the unused one. 

Has there been any word about the next shipment of 18650's that will actually have the PCB protection circuit?


----------



## TinderBox (UK) (May 22, 2006)

I sent them an e-mail and got this reply on the 17th

*********************************************************

Dear John,

Our manufacture is developing and testing for the batteries with protection PCB. Since this is new product, the manufacture need to take more time to testing the product.

We will ship out the replacement as soon as we get the new product.

Regards,

customer service



All-Battery.com


*********************************************************

regards.


----------



## vortechs (Jun 4, 2006)

vortechs said:


> I charged my other brand new 18650 (the unused one) up to 4.06V using my Nano charger and some wires. It didn't take nearly as long to charge as it took to charge the completely depleted one did, but it started with a partial charge (3.91V).
> 
> The pair of them have been just sitting for a week or so and they are now both showing 4.04V. I haven't gotten around to comparing their runtime in the same light to see if the capacity of the one that I tested is reduced, but at least it seems to be holding a charge as well as the unused one.
> 
> Has there been any word about the next shipment of 18650's that will actually have the PCB protection circuit?



I put my pair of 18650's into a MicroFire M4R (with a 9V incandescent/LED bulb assembly) and ran it on the low setting (just using the six 5mm LED's) for a while, then checked the batteries. They looked good and the voltages matched so I tried the incandescent bulb for a short time then checked the cells again. They still look good and the voltages match. So far, so good. 

Unless somebody advises against it, I'm going to continue to run it for short periods and see what happens as the cells run down. I'm trying to be cautious with the one I experimented with. Perhaps I should use it by itself in the M2L rather than in series in the M4R.


----------



## MattK (Jun 5, 2006)

Heya guys - I just got word that samples of the new batch are en route and I'm expecting them any day now.

I just shot vortechs an email offering him one as a 'tester' so you guys can hear from someone besides me that they're 'right' this time.


----------



## MattK (Jun 5, 2006)

Heya guys - I just got word that samples of the new batch are en route and I'm expecting them any day now.

I just shot vortechs an email offering him one as a 'tester' so you guys can hear from someone besides me that they're 'right' this time.


----------



## vortechs (Jun 6, 2006)

MattK said:


> Heya guys - I just got word that samples of the new batch are en route and I'm expecting them any day now.
> 
> I just shot vortechs an email offering him one as a 'tester' so you guys can hear from someone besides me that they're 'right' this time.



Thanks Matt, I'd be happy to test one.


----------



## vortechs (Jun 14, 2006)

It looks like the new protected 18650 Tenergy cells have arrived. See this thread (http://candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=121622). 


I'll let people know when I get mine from MattK (http://www.batteryjunction.com). 

I picked up a couple of 1-Ohm 10-Watt wirewound resistors at a local Radio Shack closeout sale so that I could 'safely' test the PCB protection for cutoff at high current. I should be able to start with them in series (2-Ohm), then only one of them (1-Ohm), then in parallel (0.5-Ohm) if necessary. I feel a lot better about having a resistor in the circuit that than about trying to 'short' a Li-Ion battery through my Multimeter to get a current reading and see if the protection circuit will trip.


----------



## Lips (Jun 16, 2006)

My free replacement 18650 cells are on the way! I doubt they will run the ROP HI though...


----------



## MattK (Jun 16, 2006)

I'll let people know when I get mine from MattK (http://www.batteryjunction.com). 


You should have it on Tuesday - with a little something extra


----------



## TinderBox (UK) (Jun 20, 2006)

well I received my replacement 18650, from all-batteries.com

problem is they no long fit my VB-16, their to wide.

I measured them with my digital vernia, the head is 18.57mm wide, and the body is only slightly thiner.

all-batterys website states the width at 18mm +-0.2mm 18.2mm

sorry their not.

well i have 4 spanking new batterys with nothing to put them in.

what shall i do.?

regards.


----------



## MikeHunt79 (Jun 20, 2006)

My batteries also arrived this morning and they fit in my HY SWAT tactical torches ok. I once have the "battery too fat" when using protected 123's in my golston. You could either bore the torch out a bit, or take the outer layer of plastic off the battery and strategically replace it with bits of electrical tape. I have done this and it does work, but I think boring the torch would be safer.


----------



## Lips (Jun 20, 2006)

My free cells arrived Monday

They are longer than the unprotected, won't fire up the ROP HI, measure same size as AW's cells, pass the DMM 10 amp short test. 

I measured with a Digital Caliper and got 18mm at most of the body and 18.4 at very widest/top where protection strip is. The protection strip is clearly visible where the other cells was not...

Looks like they are Protected and Functioning...


----------



## MikeHunt79 (Jun 20, 2006)

Yep they work... I haven't tried to hit the low volt cut off yet tho, but I'm sure it should work.


----------



## vortechs (Jun 22, 2006)

My new protected 18650 cell from MattK at BatteryJunction.com arrived yesterday and I picked it up from the post office outlet today. (Thanks for the extra gift, Matt)

Appearance: The new blue-wrapped cell is marked: 
TENERGY Li-ion 18650
2200mAh 3.7V With PCB

The outline of the thin strip that connects the top and bottom of the battery for the protection circuit is clearly visible through the wrapper. The wrapper of the new cell is a dull blue color, while the wrapper of the old cell is a shiny blue. The top of the new cell surrounding the positive terminal is black, while the top of the old cell is white. On both cells, the positive terminal is not raised (no positive 'nipple'). 

Dimensions: As reported by others, the new cell is slightly longer than the previous ones that did not have a PCB. The old cells were 65mm long, the new cell is 67mm long. The original published length was 67mm, so perhaps my earlier speculation that the 'missing' 2mm was due to the missing PCB was correct. The new cell also has a wider diameter than the old cells. The new one appears to be about 18mm in diameter at the bottom of the cell and a bit more than 18mm at the top of the cell. I don't have a caliper for an exact measure. The new cell just barely fits in my MicroFire M2L (which I had previously modified to allow the old, thinner 18650 to fit in easily), I'll need to sand down the inside of the brass ring at the end of the battery tube a bit more if I want to use this cell regularly in the M2L. 

Performance (initial): Out of the envelope, the cell measured 3.84V using my Fluke 77 series III multimeter. I prepared the four 1 Ohm, 10 Watt Wirewound resistors that I picked up from a clearance sale at Radio Shack just for this purpose. First I conneced the resistors in series, measured the resistance, then measured the current that the proteced 18650 cell could drive through the resistors. Then I removed resistors to check other values of resistance. I used two resistors in parallel to check the 1.5 Ohm and 0.5 Ohm resistances. Here are the results: 
4 x 1 Ohm resistors in series, measures 3.9 Ohms, current = 0.91 Amps
3 x 1 Ohm resistors in series, measures 2.9 Ohms, current = 1.18 Amps
2 x 1 Ohm resistors in series, measures 1.9 Ohms, current = 1.70 Amps
1 x 1 Ohm resistor in series, measures 0.9-1.0 Ohms, current = 3.10 Amps for up to 50 seconds. 
2 x 1 Ohm resistors in parallel, measures 0.6 Ohms, current = 4.99 Amps for 3 seconds, then 0 Amps (repeated several times). 

(Note: It appears that one of the resistors is a bit below 1.0 Ohms. That's not too surprising since they are marked 10% tolerance.)

In each case I held the circuit briefly at first, then long enough to make sure the current was stable, then tried longer times. In my first set of tests I held the 1 Ohm test (3.1 Amps) for about 12 seconds without the PCB shutting off the current; in a later set of tests I held it for about 40 seconds and 50 seconds without the PCB protection triggering. I tried the test with two 1 Ohm resistors in parallel a few times and each time the current went to zero after about 3 seconds at just under 5 Amps (except for the first time where I didn't hold the circuit for more than a second). 

I did a test with 1.5 Ohms last and was surprised that on the first few tests the PCB current protection triggered after somewhere between 6 and 20 seconds of just over 2 Amps, since it hadn't triggered with 1.0 Ohms and over 3 Amps. I tried the 1.5 Ohm setup again later and the PCB current protection did not trigger after 70 seconds of over 2 Amps, so perhaps the first set of tests at 1.5 Ohms were being affected by the recent triggering of the PCB protection during the 0.6 Ohm tests. In all cases the PCB protection seems to reset automatically when the load is removed. 

Summary of the odd results of the 1.5 Ohm tests: 
1 x 1 Ohm resistor in series with 2 x 1 Ohm resistors in parallel, measures 1.5 Ohms, current = 2.18 Amps (first tests gave about 6 to 20 seconds then 0 Amps, cutoff time varied, later test gave over 70 seconds without cutoff. I suspect the first tests were affected by the previous tests at 0.6 Ohm). 


Conclusion: It seems the new "TENERGY Li-ion 18650 2200mAh 3.7V With PCB" cells have functional high current draw protection. 

More analysis is necessary to determine the exact current where the protection triggers. I suspect that the trigger value is a function of both current and time, so the higher the current, the shorter a time it requires to shut off. I suspect the trigger value has a bit of memory (perhaps some capacitance) that takes some time to reset so after it has been triggered it will be more 'sensitive' for a while.


----------



## vortechs (Jun 28, 2006)

I tested the low voltage protection in the new protected 18650 cell. It seems to work fine. It seems to trigger somewhere between 3.0 and 2.5 volts and reset if the cell voltage recovers above 3.0 volts. I'll do more thorough testing if somebody is interested.


----------



## divxdude (Jun 28, 2006)

moved


----------



## RickyT (Jun 28, 2006)

vortechs said:


> I tested the low voltage protection in the new protected 18650 cell. It seems to work fine. It seems to trigger somewhere between 3.0 and 2.5 volts and reset if the cell voltage recoveres about 3.0 volts. I'll do more thorough testing if somebody is interested.



Thanks for testing these. I've been watching for your results and reading everything I could on the Li-Ions and Lithium primaries and everything else in between.
Four weeks ago I didn't even know what they were, and now I have the crazy notion that I need to build one of these 2c ROP lows or even a 2c with just the mag-numstar 5 cell xenon bulb.
This place is crazy, so much to read here, a lot to learn. Never realized the depth of flashlights. Got my first led, a terralux tle5 droping two weeks ago and am hooked.
I don't think these new 18650's are on the batteryjunction site yet though. I wonder if they're doing testing on them before they list them properly this time. This site also has some that are supposed to be protected e-lectroncs.net. I don't know if they are the same as the all-battery/batteryjunction ones or not though. Really only want two to start with, and didn't see them in singles at all-battery.


----------



## MattK (Jun 28, 2006)

vortechs said:


> My new protected 18650 cell from MattK at BatteryJunction.com arrived yesterday and I picked it up from the post office outlet today. (Thanks for the extra gift, Matt)
> 
> My pleasure - thanks again for your with that other issue. I hope you enjoy it.
> 
> ...


----------



## vortechs (Jun 29, 2006)

It seems that after a false start and an interesting learning experience for all of us, we're finally going to have a source of relatively inexpensive protectected 18650 cells.


----------



## MattK (Jun 30, 2006)

And they're up - thanks again for your efforts!

http://www.batteryjunction.com/li18322mahre.html


----------



## vortechs (Jul 10, 2006)

MattK is having a sale on the protected 18650 Li-Ion cells for $5.57 each for CPF members (and good prices on a number of other types of Li-Ion cells). See here for details and the coupon code.


----------



## MattK (Jul 15, 2006)

vortechs said:


> MattK is having a sale on the protected 18650 Li-Ion cells for $5.57 each for CPF members (and good prices on a number of other types of Li-Ion cells). See here for details and the coupon code.



Heh - now why didn't I think to post that here?


----------

