# Are you upgrading to Windows 10?



## Lebkuecher (Aug 3, 2015)

So I have this little Windows icon in my system tray inviting me to reserve my free Windows 10 upgrade and all I have to do is agree to reserve it and someday in the near future I will be notified that the upgrade has downloaded and is ready to be installed. After giving the idea a little thought I decided to go ahead and agree to the upgrade but I have to say I am more than a little nervous. I have a four year old Dell laptop that easily meets the listed requirements but the laptop works great so I’m not sure what the real upside is but more importantly I have no idea what the possible downside may be. My concern is after the upgrade will everything work or will I have to spend the next two weeks tinkering around troubleshooting oddities that will basically drive me crazy. Dell’s website has a section dedicated to Windows 10 upgrades and when I checked my laptop is listed as not tested so I’m guessing there will be no support if I upgrade. 

I know I’m not the only person wondering if I should upgrade so I thought it might be a good idea to have a thread dedicated to Windows 10 upgrade experiences. Are you going to upgrade and if so why or why not? If you already upgraded what was your experience like?


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## more_vampires (Aug 3, 2015)

Lebkuecher said:


> So I have this little Windows icon in my system tray inviting me to reserve my free Windows 10 upgrade and all I have to do is agree to reserve it and someday in the near future I will be notified that the upgrade has downloaded and is ready to be installed.


That is so shady of MS.

I hate being forced to upgrade/$$$. Where possible (not locked in by applications,) I have switched to Linux Mint. Great distro. Used to advocate Ubuntu, but they sold out to the devil and started trying to monetize absolutely everything.

MS has a long history of selling the exact same product again. In the past, we've seen registry tweaks to make it claim that it was an older version of windows.

Many times in the past, using a program called a "resource hacker" displays splash screens and logos from older versions. Windows 2000 said it was windows NT under the hood. Like that.

Sticking with 7 due to some unfortunate application lockin until EOL of 7. 8 was insanity... I do not want a mobile phone interface on a PC, nor do I want a touch screen. It's hard enough as it is to keep people from touching my screens. Grr.


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## braddy (Aug 3, 2015)

Definitely I will be upgrading, but I will be waiting for a few months.


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## GlassMan (Aug 3, 2015)

I just got my upgrade yesterday from MS on the reserve list. Took just a little over 1 hr to install - everything went good and working just fine & it was *"free"*!


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## WarRaven (Aug 3, 2015)

Mines waiting for authorisation after download.
You can roll back it says anywhere up to 30 days from install, then restore point or back up img is destroyed 
My old GT70 laptop starts and is full booted in under twenty seconds, (SSDs)on Seven pro, this is supposed to be faster, I'm looking forward to testing that. 
Hiberboot, we'll see. ☺


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## chaosdsm (Aug 3, 2015)

IMO: If you're on Windows 7 - STAY with Windows 7 there's no compelling reason to upgrade (again - my opinion) If you're on Windows 8 and don't really like it - UPGRADE

*But you may want to wait a couple months.... *

There are a few thousand issues already popped up on the retail build version. I personally have posted more than a dozen issues with the release build. 

> Some are specific to new features, like video playback issues with the new browser: Microsoft Edge.
> Some are hardware related, like the backlight on my laptop keyboard that works as intended under Windows 7, but doesn't work at all in Windows 10. 
> Some software that works fine in Win7 or Win8 won't even install on Win10.
> On both my laptop & desktop, if I put the computer to sleep, when it wakes up, the keyboard won't work until I reboot the computer.
> Most annoying one for me.... writing a post in a forum, and Microsoft Edge decides to refresh the page.... and all that typing is gone


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## more_vampires (Aug 3, 2015)

To the polite literati, MS has both a history of "free public beta test" and known bug injection. If you use windows 10 for serious business where malfunction causes loss of life... Just don't.

i don't miss corporate IT trenches one bit, but I know a "Mongol CF" when I see one.


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## WarRaven (Aug 3, 2015)

OK, I was not in my right mind, thanks guys.
My GT stays on 7Pro, garage laptop can test W10.


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## recDNA (Aug 4, 2015)

I stopped into Windows store. They swore installation of w10 would not affect any driver or program. I knew that was nonsense. Reading the post about the malfunctioning keyboard and sleep issues convinced me to stay away.


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## hoop762 (Aug 4, 2015)

Installing new software on old hardware, yes even 1 year old hardware is old, is always problematic. I'm no Microsoft apologists, but respect the fact that they try really hard not to leave legacy in the dust, unlike others, apple for example.

IMHO, if you're a nerd or techie, go ahead and upgrade. I will be on a few of my machines. 

For you normal folks, would get windows 10 when you buy your next computer. That is, after all, how majority of us buy Windows, right? 

How many folks here in the last 10 years went to the store and bought a retail version of a windows OS?


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## more_vampires (Aug 4, 2015)

hoop762 said:


> How many folks here in the last 10 years went to the store and bought a retail version of a windows OS?


*raises hand x 5*

Tires of paying "Microsoft Tax"


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## hoop762 (Aug 4, 2015)

more_vampires said:


> *raises hand x 5*
> 
> Tires of paying "Microsoft Tax"


Haha, my hat is off to you, sir!

I have yet to do that. When windows 7 came out I was able to get several licenses on the student buy program. Don't remember how much they cost, but they were heavily discounted.


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## more_vampires (Aug 4, 2015)

hoop762 said:


> Haha, my hat is off to you, sir!
> 
> I have yet to do that. When windows 7 came out I was able to get several licenses on the student buy program. Don't remember how much they cost, but they were heavily discounted.


Lol, drug dealer tactics. "The first one is free... er, heavily discounted so you will tell your next employer that's all you know how to use." 

Used to be IT in a former life. Skills came in handy for my safe "retirement job."

If MS is decent at supporting legacy hardware, then linux is better at it. AFAIK, there are still maintained distros for good ole i386 with text-mode install because you have just a few mb of ram. These items are not useless, they make print servers, file servers, firewalls, etc. The only real problem with them running a stripped server os is that the power consumption is super energy hog for what you get.

No way am I paying MS tax for my print server, file server, etc. OpenBSD handles that just fine. Secure the default!


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## recDNA (Aug 4, 2015)

It's the lying that bothers me. Reps should say "we cannot guarantee drivers will work with update" or even better "if driver doesn't work properly we will help you get drivers to work at no charge. Just bring in your computer and we will fix it free."


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## 1DaveN (Aug 4, 2015)

more_vampires said:


> Lol, drug dealer tactics. "The first one is free... er, heavily discounted so you will tell your next employer that's all you know how to use."
> 
> Used to be IT in a former life. Skills came in handy for my safe "retirement job."
> 
> ...



Sure, but as an experienced IT pro, you're about the only one who knows how to do any of that stuff. Even Apple hasn't been able to grab a noticeable share of the PC market from Windows, because people want to use what they already know, and that's not Linux


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## more_vampires (Aug 4, 2015)

1DaveN said:


> Sure, but as an experienced IT pro, you're about the only one who knows how to do any of that stuff. Even Apple hasn't been able to grab a noticeable share of the PC market from Windows, because people want to use what they already know, and that's not Linux


LOL! Apple is linux under the hood now! 

Anyway, millions of people use "other operating systems" NetBSD, FreeBSD and other *BSD os everyday! They just don't know it. It's inside rather a whole lot of devices, really. Not necessarily "market share," as "mind share." Lots of turn-key set-top box devices are linux under the hood because the company figured out how to avoid paying MS tax themselves.

"Hey, sir! Your router and your TV are running NetBSD!"
"Really? What's that? Is it a virus?"



Also, basic "A+ certification" for computers is cheap and there are practice tests, study guides and all that. If you had nothing better to do, you yourselves could get certed in probably less than 2 weeks... particularly if you had some old junk to practice on.

Graphical wizard automagic OS installs are pretty painless these days.... not like the horror of how some things used to be....

Like before we had autoconfig automagic for X server (the thing that makes your desktop gui in Linux.) My god was configuring that stuff PAINFUL. OpenBSD used to be designed to explicitly fight you doing this in the name of security. Apparently, running a GUI desktop is, and always was, a security hole.

Also, a lot of Windows application lock-in can be circumvented (but not usually games.) It's called "Wine." Wine lets you run windows applications in linux. Unfortunately, some of the security issues inherent to these applications come along for the ride.

Other options include running a "virtual machine." You can basically run windows itself from a window under Linux. It's kinda fun, really. If an application chokes on Wine, you can usually make it work under VMWare or one of the other virtual machine programs.

Why upgrade to Windows 10? Upgrade to Linux, then run Windows in a Window (like it should be.) You can set aggressive security measures for a virtual machine, sort of like the *BSD concept of "chroot jails." Pretty much the same thing, plus a layer of emulation. You can limit how much memory Windows an have, *disable networking (for better security,) *and even ditch unwanted functionality, like sound support and many other things.

You can even prevent windows from writing to disk. That's a pretty strong security measure. It's like you open a fresh copy of Windows everytime. Not even Windows can do that, but Linux can.

Run Windows under Linux!  This sounds hard, but it isn't. It's a whole lot of fun once it starts working. Makes you feel like a hacker!


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## NoNotAgain (Aug 4, 2015)

Well, I've got 4 Win7 Ultimate licenses and 6 Win7 Pro. The Ultimate licenses I purchased because my HP workstations came with 64 bit Vista. Stupid thing was that 64 bit Vista didn't support dual processors. Normally they give you the option on what OS you want, but in my case HP said here it is. Couldn't even get them to allow the downgrade to XP Pro.

A few years back I discovered pay4keys and haven't paid full price for any software since. They're Microsoft and Adobe certified, service is good and will provide a download link for $5 to download the entire program.

Win 10 installed on this laptop early Sunday morning. Other than a known issue with the nVidia for drivers, it works OK. Don't like the start menu and it's a pain in the rear to find Office burred within. Also couldn't find and searched for Word Pad and the basic text utility. Windows couldn't find either. MS now charges for the games that used to be free. While replying to this post, MS pinged me to rate satisfaction on 10 and would I recommend to others.

I'll give it a couple of weeks, then I'm rolling back to 7.


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## more_vampires (Aug 4, 2015)

NoNotAgain said:


> Stupid thing was that 64 bit Vista didn't support dual processors. Normally they give you the option on what OS you want, but in my case HP said here it is. Couldn't even get them to allow the downgrade to XP Pro.


Ugh... Vista. There was nothing good about Vista. 



NoNotAgain said:


> Don't like the start menu and it's a pain in the rear to find Office burred within. Also couldn't find and searched for Word Pad and the basic text utility. Windows couldn't find either. MS now charges for the games that used to be free. While replying to this post, MS pinged me to rate satisfaction on 10 and would I recommend to others.


Never pay a single penny for Office ever again. Libre Office.

MS loves to roll out a new version of Office and break file compatibility with the new version to try to lock in as many businesses as possible. The answer is Open-source Libre Office. You can get it for Windows. Now, with 99% less evil!  They are not motivated by money to break file formats and force lockins. In fact, their mentality is quite the opposite. They seem to seek maximum interoperability.

Two of my favorite text editors are "Bluefish" and "Geany." They support multi-threading file editing and have native support for HTML and programming languages. They are free open source.

Anyway, what is MS's problem with screwing up the user interface? They are endangering their cornered market of "people who only know Windows Classic/Windows Explorer." (Note that Windows explorer were wholesale ripped off from "Disk Commander," "Midnight Commander" and "Xtree," the first sortagraphic file managers. Us DOS-heads used those in the early 80s.  This is back when 640k of RAM meant you were "The Man!")

The Metro interface was an absolute trainwreck! Would it have killed them to permit classic Explorer as an option? That ribbon stuff was junk, as well.

"Microsoft Bob," Windows ME, Vista, Metro, Aero, trainwreck after trainwreck. MS is so entrenched that they can shoot them selves repeatedly in the foot with rocket launchers and they're still not going anywhere.

How else can you explain chair-throwing monkey boy Steve Ballmer?


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## braddy (Aug 4, 2015)

Lebkuecher said:


> So I have this little Windows icon in my system tray inviting me to reserve my free Windows 10 upgrade and all I have to do is agree to reserve it and someday in the near future I will be notified that the upgrade has downloaded and is ready to be installed. After giving the idea a little thought I decided to go ahead and agree to the upgrade but I have to say I am more than a little nervous. I have a four year old Dell laptop that easily meets the listed requirements but the laptop works great so I’m not sure what the real upside is but more importantly I have no idea what the possible downside may be. My concern is after the upgrade will everything work or will I have to spend the next two weeks tinkering around troubleshooting oddities that will basically drive me crazy. Dell’s website has a section dedicated to Windows 10 upgrades and when I checked my laptop is listed as not tested so I’m guessing there will be no support if I upgrade.
> 
> I know I’m not the only person wondering if I should upgrade so I thought it might be a good idea to have a thread dedicated to Windows 10 upgrade experiences. Are you going to upgrade and if so why or why not? If you already upgraded what was your experience like?



As usual, your Windows thread will be hijacked by a Linux fanatic on a crusade, but most people will be upgrading before the year time limit, is over.


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## Mr Floppy (Aug 4, 2015)

more_vampires said:


> LOL! Apple is linux under the hood now!
> 
> Anyway, millions of people use "other operating systems" NetBSD, FreeBSD and other *BSD os everyday!



That is not right. Mac os x uses the BSD in the user space with a Mach kernel.

Linux lost me a bit with bloody systemd.


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## PhotonWrangler (Aug 4, 2015)

Does anyone have a copy of the final version of the Windows 10 EULA? I read an article on Forbes that claimed it includes this - 



> We will access, disclose and preserve personal data, including your content (such as the content of your emails, other private communications or files in private folders), when we have a good faith belief that doing so is necessary.



Copied from the "privacy" section of this article. Trying to figure out if this is real or not.


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## Spork (Aug 4, 2015)

Richard Stallman and other free software activists have warned us about likely back doors already in windows 7. Its just that now with 10 they are up front and the whole os is designed around it. I realize once your on the internet not much is private. However your local machine is a "personal computer" and should not be readily available to prying eyes. In good conscience I can no longer allow myself to use or recommend windows or mac to anyone for their primary operating system. That being said I'm sure there are vast performance improvements from 7 and directx 12 will be exclusive to win 10 which is huge. 

Also to anyone doing the "upgrade". After a year if your motherboard fries and you own a retail copy of windows I'm not sure if win 10 will trasnfer. 

gnu/linux is very easy now and most things are just click and install. if you do end up in command line generally you just have to follow simple instructions while copying and pasting.


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## more_vampires (Aug 4, 2015)

braddy said:


> As usual, your Windows thread will be hijacked by a Linux fanatic on a crusade, but most people will be upgrading before the year time limit, is over.


Love you man, but you don't seem to know that MS out-sleazed IBM, US DOJ, etc.

Windows XP tcp/IP stack was straight jacked from *BSD due to MS incompetence. MS had to sleaze OS/2 from IBM to make Windows NT. MS is historically bottom run when it comes to actually making something that works. MS could never build a NetBSD build that works without stealing. They haven't packed the gear since Bill Gates first stabbed Paul Allen in the back.

MS couldn't even make Hotmail work without running it on *BSD, even forged replies after they got busted for it and STILL couldn't fix it!!


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## braddy (Aug 5, 2015)

Like I said.............


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## Mr Floppy (Aug 5, 2015)

PhotonWrangler said:


> Trying to figure out if this is real or not.



It was mentioned last October I recall. That and many other controversial clauses. Don't know what the final eula will be but I don't think it will be much different. Gaffer tape your Web cam and super glue your microphone if you haven't already.

The whole forced update is a concern. Basically you lose all control and place your trust in Microsoft. Ha!


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## subwoofer (Aug 5, 2015)

I've upgraded an old netbook which had Windows 7 starter and a windows 8.1 tablet. In both cases the Windows 10 machine is a vast improvement.

Obviously I've also switched off all the easily accessible invasiveness - privacy settings, wifi sense, feedback etc.

These two machines were on the scrapheap so injecting them with Windows 10 has brought them back to life and lets me get to know the OS before considering anything more important.

If I only had one main PC with Windows 7 and it was working for me, I would not upgrade yet.


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## markr6 (Aug 5, 2015)

When I had free time and more play money in life, I would tinker with my computer and upgrade things out of boredom. Today, I have a solid "if it's not broke, don't fix it" mindset. Running Windows 7.

I recently factory restored my Dell XPS desktop, removed all the factor junk, reinstalled all my programs, transferred data files, then made an image of that. I pad a good $1500 or so for this about 4 years ago, and will probably keep running it until I'm somehow forced to get a new one. Then I'll run Windows 10 or whatever else is current at that time.


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## usdiver (Aug 5, 2015)

Windows 7 will be the last I RUN! On xp at the moment and not willing to submit to the *******s monopoly and mentality! I want to choose when to upgrade and what to upgrade to! Windows 8 up is about control which the user has no choice. Somebody prove me wrong and I ll consider... Otherwise I ll go somewhere else


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## WarRaven (Aug 5, 2015)

I only considered it as for last two years I spend 99.5% of my electronic time on Android. 
PC are so old hat to me these days, only reason I keep them is for my garage workstation and gaming laptop for my camera software. Old camera, non WiFi/BT.
Back grounds and days of old bs from BG and his mob are all a memory, Apple has taken that distinction to a new level.

I'm just glad, to use the net, I don't need a pc that f covers a dinner table and floppies that don't work because of sticky slurpee incidents. I built a 3k (cheap actually)gaming rig in late 90s, buddy wanted to feel what is was like to sit at the helm, in my chair. He Tipped over full one ltr bottle of coke which shotgunned into open sided pc tower and it's good dozen or so fans running at 5-10k rpm.
My BF42 clan was not happy with absences for week after til I rebuilt. No more carrying 100lb towers on ice for jam sessions, yay.
That's my two cents, and last two, thanks all.


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## more_vampires (Aug 5, 2015)

Lol, raven. Thanks! That takes me back...

I installed the largest drawer handles I could find on the top of the case for my LAN party rig. That was back when we lugged around CRT monitors as well. 

Later, I installed a microATX mobo in an aluminum tool case. Tri boot Red Hat, Win2k, Win 9x (hacked.)

People thought I meant business when I walked into a lan party with the aluminum briefcase and a 15" LCD tucked under my arm.


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## WarRaven (Aug 5, 2015)

Local lan pan Yup, fragaapaloozas at Bud's house with breaker bars running to neighbors garage for back up when guys fired up their NEC CRTs with British naval connections.. Look kool an tough, but heavy extras. Sli just made it all worse.

Love the tool case carry, wtg!
That just needed a reel to reel digital tape an a cassette deck mounted on outside Ethan, I'm impressed.
☺☺


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## Chauncey Gardiner (Aug 5, 2015)

15 years a Windows Man. Bought an iMac about a year ago. I've never looked back.

I'll show myself out.

~ Chance


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## more_vampires (Aug 5, 2015)

WarRaven said:


> Local lan pan Yup, fragaapaloozas at Bud's house with breaker bars running to neighbors garage for back up when guys fired up their NEC CRTs with British naval connections.. Look kool an tough, but heavy extras. Sli just made it all worse.
> 
> Love the tool case carry, wtg!
> That just needed a reel to reel digital tape an a cassette deck mounted on outside Ethan, I'm impressed.
> ☺☺


This was in the time frame I installed a car cassette/radio head unit in a pc case, hooked to the sound card. 

Playing Doobie Brothers cassette at LAN parties.


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## WarRaven (Aug 5, 2015)

Taking it to the streets, listening to the music, minute by minute!

You rock brother!
I wired up old car cassette decks for the amplification ability, speakers in buckets.
Mobile 300 watts, but needed help being mobile ☺


Edit to add, like me, I bet you were always, running on empty.


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## davidt1 (Aug 5, 2015)

I am still using W7 because it has WMC which I use to record TV shows. So no W10 for me.


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## more_vampires (Aug 5, 2015)

davidt1 said:


> I am still using W7 because it has WMC which I use to record TV shows. So no W10 for me.


https://www.mythtv.org/


> MythTV is a Free Open Source software digital video recorder (DVR) project distributed under the terms of the GNU GPL. It has been under heavy development since 2002, and now contains most features one would expect from a good DVR (and many new ones that you soon won't be able to live without).



Anything closed source can do, open source can do.


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## RetroTechie (Aug 5, 2015)

PhotonWrangler said:


> Does anyone have a copy of the final version of the Windows 10 EULA? I read an article on Forbes that claimed it includes this -
> 
> 
> > We will access, disclose and preserve personal data, including your content (such as the content of your emails, other private communications or files in private folders), when we have a good faith belief that doing so is necessary.
> ...


Alternatives like Android, OS X and Linux make it increasingly difficult for MS to earn big $ with an OS alone. So MS is moving to (or trying?) a customers-as-fodder-for-advertizers model like Facebook & co. Hence the "free upgrade" with shady privacy rules. *That alone* is good enough reason for me to avoid using Windows 10 for real work. At least with a website you can close your account or use another site instead. With an OS on which you do your daily tasks, not so easy. And _much, much, much_ harder to secure against unauthorized access to one's personal files (as opposed to what a website can do from inside a browser).

With previous Windows versions, installing / using such backdoors by MS would require to change EULA _after_ the OS was installed + activated, and getting users to agree to it. Which would be a non-starter: huuuge backlash, or a class-action lawsuit would surely follow. The fix: get people to upgrade to a new OS - with very different fine print in its EULA.

As for myself: moved back from a laptop to mini-ITX based 'box' PC. Much more suitable for real work like electronics design stuff, audio/video editing, proper gaming, etc, etc. Easier to upgrade using cheaper parts, etc. Have been a long-time Linux user (Debian "testing" right now), it works excellent on this recent hardware, and runs all software I need. No going back to a closed-source OS for me...

On the move I've got an Android-powered smartphone, limitations are due to hardware (small screen, no real keyboard / mouse etc), not the OS that's on it. Decided a while ago that the space between smartphone and PC isn't big enough _for me_ to get a tablet. I might someday, but only as a for-fun gadget.

There's no place for Windows 10 in all this. Maybe on a Raspberry Pi *2* (yet to buy, already got a few Raspberry Pi's though  ). Recommend Windows 10 to other people, with all its bugs and shady business model behind it? No way, not even if you hand me $$! :nana:

If you want a 'classic' Windows experience, go Windows 7. If you don't mind the UI or know how to slap on a start menu & normal desktop, go Windows 8(.1). If you're not a serious gamer or use your PC/laptop to access FB, e-mail, fleaBay, play some movies and not much else: give a *modern* Linux distro a try - you'll like it. The latter also recommended if you're in the software developer / scientist / engineering demographic. :duh2:


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## d13avo (Aug 5, 2015)

I upgraded to windows 10 a couple of days ago and I am currently going back to
Windows 7


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## more_vampires (Aug 5, 2015)

RetroTechie said:


> Alternatives like Android, OS X and Linux make it increasingly difficult for MS to earn big $ with an OS alone. So MS is moving to (or trying?) a customers-as-fodder-for-advertizers model like Facebook & co. Hence the "free upgrade" with shady privacy rules. *That alone* is good enough reason for me to avoid using Windows 10 for real work. At least with a website you can close your account or use another site instead. With an OS on which you do your daily tasks, not so easy. And _much, much, much_ harder to secure against unauthorized access to one's personal files (as opposed to what a website can do from inside a browser).


Uhh... this is nothing new for MS. One of the times they've been caught so far is the "NSA key" fiasco. Not a word of it in their EULA at the time.

"We reserve the right to cripple your personal security without warrant and are under no obligation to disclose anything about this."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NSAKEY


> Microsoft denied the speculations on _NSAKEY. "This report is inaccurate and unfounded. The key in question is a Microsoft key. It is maintained and safeguarded by Microsoft, and we have not shared this key with the NSA or any other party."[3]​ Microsoft said that the key's symbol was "_NSAKEY" because the NSA is the technical review authority for U.S. export controls, and the key ensures compliance with U.S. export laws.[4]​



Lol, "this is not the backdoor you were looking for, move along." :shakehead

US export laws on crypto are not nice. They chose a cop-out answer, hoping nobody understood what they are saying.


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## recDNA (Aug 5, 2015)

I just wonder how long b4 they stop supporting w7


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## PhotonWrangler (Aug 5, 2015)

recDNA said:


> I just wonder how long b4 they stop supporting w7



Security updates will continue until January 14th, 2020.


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## Lebkuecher (Aug 13, 2015)

I received the Windows 10 upgrade notification today. 

I’m still on the fence on upgrading. I think I may wait a while and see how upgrades go with others who have the same Dell laptop with similar configurations. But then again curiosity just might drive me crazy.


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## more_vampires (Aug 13, 2015)

Lebkuecher said:


> I received the Windows 10 upgrade notification today.
> 
> I’m still on the fence on upgrading. I think I may wait a while and see how upgrades go with others who have the same Dell laptop with similar configurations. But then again curiosity just might drive me crazy.


Lol, "You've got SPAM!"  MS is spamming our desktops now with their "free advertising."


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## braddy (Aug 13, 2015)

Lebkuecher said:


> I received the Windows 10 upgrade notification today.
> 
> I’m still on the fence on upgrading. I think I may wait a while and see how upgrades go with others who have the same Dell laptop with similar configurations. But then again curiosity just might drive me crazy.



There is no rush to upgrade, I intend to wait until the last month or two.


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## more_vampires (Aug 13, 2015)

Point to ponder: If they are abusing control of YOUR hardware that YOU purchased to crap out ads for you to participate in their "free public alpha test," then how can you trust them with this control of YOUR posessions?

MS calls it a "free public beta." What they actually do is inject X number of known bugs. When 80% of those INTENTIONALLY placed bugs are reported, then they assume they have gotten 80% of the ones they didn't know about. When you do this "free" thing, you are doing software development work for MS for free. 

If you use a "free public alpha test" from MS for serious work, you're crazy. You know for a fact that it's half-baked.


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## recDNA (Aug 13, 2015)

I've already read some bad reviews. I wouldn't dare try it on my Dell Alienware.


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## scs (Aug 13, 2015)

Same here. Some online experts recommend waiting 6 weeks after the initial release date, so Microsoft has a chance to iron out most of the bugs.

Me, I attempted an installation. It stalled at a black screen with only the mouse pointer visible and responsive. There was no message on screen, no progress graphics, just blank like that for over an hour. So I just pressed the reset button. Splash screen came on that said attempting to continue installation before quickly changing to say retrieving previous version of windows. It stalled one more time during the retrieval process and I had to restart like before before my Windows 7 is working again.


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## Lebkuecher (Aug 13, 2015)

So here is what happens when you start the upgrade process at least with my computer. 

After clicking on the little Windows icon on the toolbar to start the upgrade this screen pops up.






And then after clicking "Ok let's continue" the "working on it" screen pops up.






And then nothing, the upgrade stalls on the ”working on it screen”. I waited over thirty minutes and nothing ever happened, I have no idea why the upgrade stalled.


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## recDNA (Aug 13, 2015)

Have you rebooted to make sure current windows works?


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## scs (Aug 13, 2015)

Lebkuecher said:


> ..
> And then nothing, the upgrade stalls on the ”working on it screen”. I waited over thirty minutes and nothing ever happened, I have no idea why the upgrade stalled.



My installation ran from Windows Update.


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## Lebkuecher (Aug 13, 2015)

recDNA said:


> Have you rebooted to make sure current windows works?



Yes, I don't believe the update ever really started.


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## Lebkuecher (Aug 13, 2015)

scs said:


> My installation ran from Windows Update.



Looks like I have the option to upgrade from Windows Update, if you never hear from me again you will know the upgrade didn't go well.


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## scs (Aug 13, 2015)

Lebkuecher said:


> Looks like I have the option to upgrade from Windows Update, if you never hear from me again you will know the upgrade didn't go well.


Hahahaha. Don't worry. Worst case scenario, the Windows 10 installation will likely revert back to your current version of windows if it fails, like in my case.


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## Lebkuecher (Aug 13, 2015)

The upgrade completed without any real issues but it did take some time to complete. Everything I’ve tested appears to work. Unfortunately I did lose all of my bookmarks so make sure you save them if you upgrade. It will take a little time to get used to Windows 10.


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## NoNotAgain (Aug 14, 2015)

I know why Microsoft calls it Windows 10. It spawns at least 10 windows with all kinds of news and other BS that Microsoft is attempting to pitch.

Microsoft has run two updates so far that I can see. Once my laptop got very unresponsive. Did the control, alt delete, to get a message that I was disrupting an update. No warning, just updated on it's own.

I've got another couple of weeks before the switch is final.

On the plus side. Windows 7 booted much faster than did XP. Windows 10 boots twice as fast as Win 7. Reports using less resources than 7 does. Firefox 39.0 which used to be a memory hog only uses 350mb verses over 900mb before. Task manager is big time improved over Win 7.

On the minus. Microsoft pushes updates without warning. You can't schedule when You want. Haven't found a way to move items around on start menu. Everything is alphabetical. Recent programs are at the top.


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## WarRaven (Aug 14, 2015)

I'm glad I took a pass on this after this thread, being long away from in the loop anymore and forgetting my own history, the adds near had me.
+1 
I believe the SSDs in my house breathed a sigh of relief, now to stop the MS spam.


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## chaosdsm (Aug 15, 2015)

*Some things everyone should be aware of before going for Windows 10... *Microsoft wants to know everything you do with Windows 10... By default, all of your personal data, browsing habits, contacts, calendar info, (events, birth dates, appointments, etc...) current location & location history (for phones, laptops, tablets) and more are automatically sent to Microsoft and shared with apps. 

Most of these can be controlled to some degree through Settings > Privacy  Although anything Microsoft considers "critical" to future development doesn't have the option to be blocked or turned off.

*The free upgrade needs to be reserved *(if you think you might want it later) _but it does *not need to be installed *until you're ready to install it _- I.E. after SP1 is released IMO

*Microsoft does push updates*, and you cannot control when "critical updates" are installed (unless you're a cyber-security wiz...), _but you can stop the automatic reboot, and you can delay non-critical updates for at least 30 days. _ This is actually a good thing for 99.8% of computer users, as long as someone turns the automatic reboot off. I can't tell you how many dozens of PC's I've had to work on that only needed Microsoft updates installed to fix the problem.

*Peer to Peer Updates.... *Microsoft has incorporated a peer to peer update feature for Microsoft Updates - while this may sound good.... if a Peer is infected with a virus, that virus could potentially be transmitted to your machine through the update... 

*Microsoft Edge still does not work properly - use Firefox, Chrome, or Internet Explorer instead.

If you upgrade, You MUST create a restore disk (8GB or larger USB thumbdrive needed), and keep your original Windows 7/8 installation media in order to do future reinstalls. If like me you upgraded from Win10 BETA to full retail, & have to reinstall due to failed & replaced hardware, you're screwed, even if you have created the restore disk.

That EULA thing from Forbes (posted by PhotonWrangler on page 1) is 100% for real, and may not be the most disturbing part of the EULA.............*


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## RetroTechie (Aug 15, 2015)

chaosdsm said:


> *Some things everyone should be aware of before going for Windows 10... *Microsoft wants to know everything you do with Windows 10... By default, all of your personal data, browsing habits, contacts, calendar info, (events, birth dates, appointments, etc...) current location & location history (for phones, laptops, tablets) and more are automatically sent to Microsoft and shared with apps.


That alone would be a COMPLETE NON-STARTER for me. :shakehead For comparison: in Android you have similar privacy issues. But at least _the OS itself_ phones home a limited set of data (like perhaps location info, unique device ID's, what apps you have installed etc). Most issues arise from apps, which require permission to use certain data, hardware features etc, and the OS enforces permissions that are given. Private data like photos etc stays on your phone _unless_ you give permission to share/upload that elsewhere. For 'paranoid' users, there's alternatives like CyanogenMod that allow fine-grained control over which app gets what permission(s). Very different from (basically) "vendor can grab whatever it deems interesting".



> *Microsoft does push updates*, and you cannot control when "critical updates" are installed


Which imho isn't a bad thing for 99.9% of users, and updates that are a) security fixes, b) 100% safe to apply, and c) like you said, don't involve a forced reboot. There's enough unpatched systems out there. Fine if it were not other people's problem, but it is. Compromised systems are used as bot networks, spam relays, as go-between to compromise other systems, etc, etc. So it's in everybody's interest that the vast majority of (internet-connected) systems are patched. A kind of 'herd immunity' thing... 

In all other cases, at least _some_ user control is needed. Choose between levels of 'safe' or 'experimental' patches, delay, test with an option to roll back, whatever. That OS vendor _thinks_ something is the "best" driver for your video card for example, is useless if it locks up in your favourite game (where an older driver doesn't).



> *Peer to Peer Updates.... *


Nifty feature, I wish Linux distro's had that... :laughing: Again: fine _as long as users are asked_ if it's okay to use some upload bandwidth for it. And...


> if a Peer is infected with a virus, that virus could potentially be transmitted to your machine through the update...


Ehm no. Digital signatures allows checking the authenticity of file(s), even when obtained via a non-trusted 3rd party. And if networking code was written properly, simply exchanging packets with random 3rd party has *zero* chance of putting a virus on your system.
The usual "got virus from site xyz" involves not using signatures, ignoring them, relying on users to check the info, flawed code to check these things, or stupid users overriding it all.


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## chaosdsm (Aug 16, 2015)

RetroTechie said:


> Ehm no. Digital signatures allows checking the authenticity of file(s), even when obtained via a non-trusted 3rd party. And if networking code was written properly, simply exchanging packets with random 3rd party has *zero* chance of putting a virus on your system.



in a perfect world definitely, but Windows 10 is so very far from perfect, who knows if Microsoft got even that much right..... Don't forget all the code is written by a human, so flaws, errors, &/or omissions may exist that could allow for it to happen.


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## MAD777 (Aug 16, 2015)

I took the bait. Installation froze half-way through. Now my laptop just plain doesn't work. Black screen on reboot. 
DON'T DO IT!


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## Search (Aug 16, 2015)

Installed Win 10 2 days ago. Installed the newest Nvidia drivers after it rebooted. Instant driver crash. One after another. Hit the other win 10 driver. Instant driver crash. 

Turns out it was SLI.

My second 980 ti is a paperweight for the time being. Other than that it looks good if that counts for anything.


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## Mr Floppy (Aug 16, 2015)

Driver hell was always going to be a problem with major changes to the OS and with all the different types of old hardware out there. It's a model of personal computing that is getting harder and harder to maintain. Hard for makers, hard for peripherals. If only they could force you to upgrade your hardware... Oh, well compatibility issues is one way


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## HB 88 (Aug 16, 2015)

Primarily a Linux user, still have a laptop running W7, going to hold off a little longer before making the upgrade.


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## more_vampires (Aug 17, 2015)

RetroTechie said:


> Ehm no. Digital signatures allows checking the authenticity of file(s), even when obtained via a non-trusted 3rd party. And if networking code was written properly, simply exchanging packets with random 3rd party has *zero* chance of putting a virus on your system.
> The usual "got virus from site xyz" involves not using signatures, ignoring them, relying on users to check the info, flawed code to check these things, or stupid users overriding it all.


Lol, assuming MS wrote it correctly.  They *do* inject bugs for these "public beta tests." Bugs for the sole purpose of showing "80% reported." MS security is a model called "security through obscurity." They pray nobody knows how to root their stuff.


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## Lebkuecher (Aug 17, 2015)

Mr Floppy said:


> Driver hell was always going to be a problem with major changes to the OS and with all the different types of old hardware out there. It's a model of personal computing that is getting harder and harder to maintain. Hard for makers, hard for peripherals. If only they could force you to upgrade your hardware... Oh, well compatibility issues is one way



I have a Dell XPS 501x laptop that has the Maxx Audio 3 application which gives you the ability to customize and enhance sound but after the upgrade I lost almost all of the functionality such as the equalizer. The switches on the screen for customizing sound have just disappeared. I reinstalled the Realtec High Definition Audio driver from the Dell website but nothing changed. Others who have the Dell 501x are having the same problem so I’m not alone. Some are disgruntled with Dell for lack of support but the real question is how long is a manufacture supposed to support a computer model, my laptop is almost four years old.


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## Mr Floppy (Aug 17, 2015)

Lebkuecher said:


> but the real question is how long is a manufacture supposed to support a computer model, my laptop is almost four years old.



Wouldn't be in their interests to. Of course they want you to keep buying new machines but they can't all be like Apple.


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## bestellen (Aug 18, 2015)

Are the potential performance increases from DirectX 12 sufficient? The few articles I've read seem to indicate there is a good amount of potential for improvement once engines are written to properly take advantage of it.

Either way if Microsoft sticks to their decision to make Windows 10 the last major release then eventually you will end up using it. I feel like you would be better off switching before you're too comfortable with Windows 8.1.


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## more_vampires (Aug 18, 2015)

bestellen said:


> Either way if Microsoft sticks to their decision to make Windows 10 the last major release then eventually you will end up using it.


Lol, no.  "Windows apps" are gaining better and better compatibility under Linux/Wine every day. Everything but games is pretty much spot on under a virtual machine. Everything to like, nothing to hate. MS WILL release a Windows 11, 12, 13, 14, 15 and so on. They want to cash in again yet one more time for something that isn't fundamentally different than before. They'll put some window splash on it to make you think it's a new product. There's going to charge you again for a different window manager, hoping nobody understands how you can install different GUI desktops, such as lxde, xfce, and many others. If you don't like your desktop, swap it. Nothing else has to change under the hood really. If you have application lockin, there is nothing stopping you from running Windows XP in a virtual machine window under linux. You can disable networking for the winxp VM and dramatically enhance security with just a few checkboxes under VM software such as OpenBox.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Free_desktop_environments

There's a lot more than listed on that wiki at time of posting.

Interoperate MS with linux/unix regardless of what MS thinks:
https://www.samba.org/samba/


> *Samba is the standard Windows interoperability suite of programs for Linux and Unix.*
> 
> Samba is Free Software licensed under the GNU General Public License, the Samba project is a member of the Software Freedom Conservancy.
> Since 1992, Samba has provided secure, stable and fast file and print services for all clients using the SMB/CIFS protocol, such as all versions of DOS and Windows, OS/2, Linux and many others.
> Samba is an important component to seamlessly integrate Linux/Unix Servers and Desktops into Active Directory environments. It can function both as a domain controller or as a regular domain member.





bestellen said:


> I feel like you would be better off switching before you're too comfortable with Windows 8.1.


Yeah, switch to LINUX!  Linux is the opposite in development mentality of MS/Windows. In linux, we can sit there at version .9, .91, .92a, .92b for years and years and years. There is no marketing mentality to kick ahead a full version number when there is nothing fundamentally different about it. (Mozilla Firefox version 11 billion notwithstanding.)



bestellen said:


> Are the potential performance increases from DirectX 12 sufficient? The few articles I've read seem to indicate there is a good amount of potential for improvement once engines are written to properly take advantage of it.


MS could have gone with an open standard (OpenGL) a very very long time ago. They chose to go with their intentionally half-baked "DirectX" to hamper and impede interoperability projects. They are actively fighting all interoperability projects. They wanted to own the apis for graphics and games, regardless that OpenGL was well understood, open, flexible, and powerful. It's everything MS hates. They reserve the right to screw up the APIs, regardless of how many developers must relearn the wheel yet again for the 12th time. 

MS saw the Wine project coming, their answer was DirectX. Can't have free open source reimplementations very well if they screw everything up every release.

https://www.winehq.org/
Have some Wine. It's pretty good! 

Some supported apps list here:
https://appdb.winehq.org/


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## Mr Floppy (Aug 18, 2015)

Good rant but not quite right about directx. You have to remember that Windows was still rather awful at the start. Open GL would not work that well on it. Microsoft were also involved in it but didn't have much control. Games were still running from DOS because it didn't have to go through windows. That is where the directx came it, as a way to access the hardware directly and not have the rest of windows tie it up. Open GL also at the time had no support for joysticks and sound support wasn't great if at all.

As for directx 12 being faster, well that is much of a muchness really. 

In any case, the pc gaming industry is getting smaller. It was in decline when I was in the industry and now none of the people I know are still in that industry. Mind you, we're old pharts now.


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## more_vampires (Aug 18, 2015)

Lol, yeah, I have gray hair. I remember the "DOS Protected Mode" days...

Had MS contributed to OpenGL instead of fighting it, history would have been different. The stuff would have worked. MS has been against OpenGL from day one of OpenGL.

Oh well. Water under the bridge.


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## InfinitusEquitas (Aug 18, 2015)

Upgraded two laptops and two PC's to both SSD's and Windows 10. Two from windows 7, two from windows 8.

Had an issue with my four-five year old laptop, in that the wireless adapter stopped working altogether after the upgrade. Installed windows 8.1 drivers, and that seems to have worked, although officially half the hardware I'm using has not been tested for windows 10 support. To me at least, it appears that just about everything made for 8.1 seems to be working on 10.

All the privacy settings, and deletion of live tiles took about 5 minutes on the last go around.

There are three issues that I'm currently not too thrilled with;

1. Pushed updates on Home Editions (and you have zero control over them except when to restart - not an issue on a newer/higher end pc, but could be a big problem to people on older systems).

2. Search functionality - the Search Windows bar is literally not working on my home pc. - Hoping a restart fixes that, but if not that's a big problem.

3. My MS Office 2010 is no longer valid. It wasn't officially valid before, but it was usable. - Pretty much all of my games are coming from steam now, but if you have MS made games from a less than legitimate source you may find them no longer working after the upgrade.

I probably would have stuck to windows 7 for quite a bit longer, but my new home pc, and new laptop both came with windows 8 installed, which is just a turd that I'm guessing the same geniuses that crapped out vista produced. My old PC, and my laptop were more of an experiment - I will be selling one, and didn't really care too much about the other.

While there are obviously problems, so far I'm happy enough with W10. Feels substantially faster, even prior to upgrading to SSDs. I did notice that running the very last updates on Windows 7 also lead to somewhat a cut down on boot time.

Tip to those of you waiting for the upgrade icon, or to do it via windows update. Don't bother. Just go and download the media creation tool, and go from there. Forcing the update is an unnecessary hassle.


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## Lebkuecher (Aug 18, 2015)

InfinitusEquitas said:


> 3. My MS Office 2010 is no longer valid. It wasn't officially valid before, but it was usable.



My MS Office 2010 still works after the upgrade. If I recall I bought and downloaded directly from MS.


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## InfinitusEquitas (Aug 19, 2015)

Might go that route if none of the versions I have saved end up working out. I'm sure I could find a way to not pay a dime, but it would take time, and there is no guarantee a future update wouldn't invalidate the invalid activation again.

In the meantime ran into a headache of a problem. For some reason my razer blackwidow ultimate 2011 keyboard stopped working today. Tried everything I could think of, but can't get it to work. Razer is absolutely useless in terms of support. Only potential option left to me, and with no guarantee of success, is to do a clean install of windows 10. Which is something I had considered, but it's so much hassle, after finally getting things setup.

Tried uninstalling the drivers, tried installing any driver that could possibly work. Tried using the razer synapse software, which promptly proceeded to freeze. Tried different ports. Tried deleting everything I could think of from the device manager.


The kicker of it is, the keyboard works on other computers, does light up, is seen by windows, does work if the function key is used for macros, and even works in bios, but will not type in windows.


While I'm still reasonably pleased with windows 10, it has already cost me a minimum of 6-8 hours time in dealing with the software, not counting the standby time of the initial updates and install. That with another ~10 hours spent on cloning, and dealing with the hardware, and it's leaving me pretty cranky.


Nvidia also hasn't gotten it's act together... their most recent W10 driver would not install, had to use an older one, and NOW I'm getting the prompt to upgrade it... no thanks, not for a while.


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## NoNotAgain (Aug 19, 2015)

The laptop that I installed 10 on is a Dell Precision M6500 with an nVidia 3800 graphic card, a second gen i7 processor and 16gb of ram. I had saved the graphics card updates from Dell as well as the one on nVidia's site.

I've had no issues with having 10 run. It appears faster, and the task manager is actually useful. The only problem I encountered was that my usb ports weren't recognized. After about an hour of playing around, I rebooted to the bios, and flipped the switch for usb 3.0. No problem since.

I still don't like the pushed updates. I want to be able to schedule them and know what was added/changed. The MS user agreement changes is just MS being asses. Until I can find an OS that I can run Autocad and G-code machining on, I'm stuck.


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## more_vampires (Aug 19, 2015)

NoNotAgain said:


> Until I can find an OS that I can run Autocad and G-code machining on, I'm stuck.


WineHQ tells us that Autocad 2008 runs in "gold status," later versions are not ready yet.


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## NoNotAgain (Aug 19, 2015)

more_vampires said:


> WineHQ tells us that Autocad 2008 runs in "gold status," later versions are not ready yet.



Autocad is a very sore subject. When I purchased my HP workstations, HP hadn't certified a 64 bit version of Win 7 with quad core Xeon processors, so I got stuck with 64 bit Vista. A month later they certified Win 7, 64 bit. I tired to get Autodesk to send me Autocad that would run on 7 and they refused the free upgrade. They demanded $1700 per license for the upgrade.


I Installed virtual XP 64 bit and it ran and runs just fine. After getting almost $8500 for two licenses, you think they would have worked with me, but no, cut a check for another $2800 or no dice. I will not be purchasing another Autodesk product. Inventor is another of their cluster F products.

I'd like to go back to the good old days of Ashlar Velium, but no one uses it any longer.


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## more_vampires (Aug 19, 2015)

NoNotAgain said:


> Autocad is a very sore subject. When I purchased my HP workstations, HP hadn't certified a 64 bit version of Win 7 with quad core Xeon processors, so I got stuck with 64 bit Vista. A month later they certified Win 7, 64 bit. I tired to get Autodesk to send me Autocad that would run on 7 and they refused the free upgrade. They demanded $1700 per license for the upgrade.


Ack, that sucks. This sounds EXACTLY how open source "The GIMP" picture editor sprang up in response to Adobe acting similarly with Photoshop.

If Autodesk isn't careful, their "flagship" Autocad is going to get "The GIMP"-ed.

http://www.opensourcealternative.or...c-editors/open-source-alternative-to-autocad/
Oh look! It's *already started!* 
1. FreeCAD
2. BRL-CAD
3. QCAD
4. LibreCAD
5. Archimedes
6. OpenCascade
7. CADemia
8. Draftsight

LOL! Octo-GIMP'ed!  They really must have PO'ed a crapload of programmers.


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## Last Time (Aug 20, 2015)

....


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## InfinitusEquitas (Aug 20, 2015)

Last Time said:


> is good windows 10?



IMO yes, but I would suggest waiting for 3-6 months before upgrading unless you're prepared to deal with bugs yourself.


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## LedTed (Aug 20, 2015)

I haven't had to install Windows 10. But I have researched it. I read that 10 does some "automatic" things I don't like.

http://www.komando.com/tips/318802/stop-windows-10-from-automatically-sharing-your-wi-fi-with-others


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## more_vampires (Aug 20, 2015)

WRT MS bleeding edge public alpha testing, the old head IT method is called "wait for service pack 1." That's when they take out the known injected bugs.


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## InfinitusEquitas (Aug 20, 2015)

W10 has been available to try for a while now, so it's nowhere near as buggy as windows 8 was. Service pack 1 might take a while.



LedTed said:


> I haven't had to install Windows 10. But I have researched it. I read that 10 does some "automatic" things I don't like.
> 
> http://www.komando.com/tips/318802/stop-windows-10-from-automatically-sharing-your-wi-fi-with-others



Almost everything can be changed through settings, and some of the settings during the initial setup. The default is of course to share everything, and give up all privacy.

The thing that windows 10 does do automatically that is annoying, is push updates. For both home, and pro editions. On Pro you can at least delay the updates, on home edition you can only delay the restart after the update is installed.

There is really no good reason that people shouldn't updating, but, BUT, I do think people should have control over when they do it. If you're on a metered connection for example, or tethering to your phone with your laptop, that could be a problem. I'm going to be disabling the update service altogether via stopping the service and registry, for when I travel.


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## NoNotAgain (Aug 20, 2015)

I happened to be sitting at my 10 machine this morning when MS did an update. Clicked on what they had done, you've got to be fast or you'll lose the ability to see the update, and was able to turn off the auto push. Supposedly I'll get a notice and have the ability to reject of delay the update.

This machine had Win 7 Professional. I'm holding off the install on the Win 7 Ultimate test machine until further notice.


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## InfinitusEquitas (Aug 20, 2015)

If you upgrade from Windows 7 ultimate you will be getting windows 10 pro, since there is no ultimate analog. 

There is no way in either version Home, or Pro, to reject the update, only to delay it in pro, and I'm not sure it will let you do it indefinitely. Would have to do it via registry and service neutering in the meantime though.


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## more_vampires (Aug 20, 2015)

InfinitusEquitas said:


> The thing that windows 10 does do automatically that is annoying, is push updates. For both home, and pro editions. On Pro you can at least delay the updates, on home edition you can only delay the restart after the update is installed.
> 
> There is really no good reason that people shouldn't updating, but, BUT, I do think people should have control over when they do it. If you're on a metered connection for example, or tethering to your phone with your laptop, that could be a problem. I'm going to be disabling the update service altogether via stopping the service and registry, for when I travel.


Sir, there are IT concepts called a "homogenous environment" vs a "heterogeneous environment."

In a homogenous environment, if the black hats root one machine then they have them all. ALL. 100%. Every single one. Worldwide. This will be their primary target.

In a heterogeneous environment, if the black hats root one box... well... they've still got 99% of the rest to crack. MS "security updates" tend to involve "not fixing the problem" and just "swapping around APIs." The problem is still there, it's just accessed differently. The MS "Web TV" was a laughingstock for this in the hacker circles. Oh, new security update? Give it 5 minutes, all the old sploits and vulns are STILL THERE, they just renamed them hoping nobody knows how to root this stuff.

Security through obscurity is not security. It's like hoping the home invaders don't know that you leave that one side door unlocked.

The MS business model is homogenous. The best security solution is heterogeneous.

To use a military phrase, this is "SOSDD." Same old stuff, different day. MIL folks know the actual words, I was being polite in a family forum.


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## stoli67 (Aug 20, 2015)

Well... Been lucky so far.

upgraded my desktop, NUC and a surface without issue.

the real test will be a new install.. Have ordered a new MB MSI Z170A, new Intel CPU I7 6700K, Nvidia graphics card GTX 9700

will install win 8 onto a hard drive the upgrade to fix the security key issue then do a full clean install onto an SSD.... When everything is working then I will copy the SSD to a second one and then disconnect it as my fail safe backup!


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## InfinitusEquitas (Aug 20, 2015)

New bug/issue... mouse curses has decided to blink as busy non stop... can't figure out what service/process is responsible. Going to play whack-a-mole until I find the right one I guess.



more_vampires said:


> To use a military phrase, this is "SOSDD." Same old stuff, different day. MIL folks know the actual words, I was being polite in a family forum.



Same old erm, stuff, different day? I wasn't even thinking of security, more along the lines of optimization/compatibility bug fixes. I know anyone with enough skill can break into my computer should they want to.


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## more_vampires (Aug 21, 2015)

InfinitusEquitas said:


> Same old erm, stuff, different day? I wasn't even thinking of security, more along the lines of optimization/compatibility bug fixes. I know anyone with enough skill can break into my computer should they want to.


IMHO, you should be running Windows 7 if you wanted it to "just work." Win10 isn't even compatible with itself right now and likely won't be until service pack 1. MS has a *very* long tradition of this.

In IT, we would fight tooth and nail to keep battle-hardened OSes in place. In my org, MS had to offer us a deal for us to migrate from WinNT to Win2k.

The hackers among us got extremely annoyed when we found out 2k is NT under the hood. We paid to upgrade and got the same thing?!? Oh well, at least it worked. Win2k was WinNT service pack 7 disguised as a "new" os, so of course it worked.

BTW, anyone hear the funny of why MS had to skip Windows 9 and go to 10? You're not going to believe this, it has to do with Win95/98!


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## InfinitusEquitas (Aug 21, 2015)

Found the process causing non stop busy flashes... devicesetup... killed it, no issues since.

Had no choice but to upgrade two of my computers because they came with windows 8, which I find to be basically unusable. One was kind of a hail mary - old laptop, was not working that well on windows 7 even, so the upgrade to 10 was just a gamble... surprisingly W10 is making it feel quite a bit faster, and after I plugged an SSD into it, it's actually quite snappy. Not going to manage any heavy work, but will work great for basic things. The last is a computer that I'm actually on right now, and trying to sell through craigslist... figured a W10 update might add some value. Can always plug in clone drive with W7 back into it. Anyone want a desktop? *http://tinyurl.com/osertnx *

Thought MS skipping versions was king of par for the course/marketing, is there a deeper reason?



stoli67 said:


> will install win 8 onto a hard drive the upgrade to fix the security key issue then do a full clean install onto an SSD.... When everything is working then I will copy the SSD to a second one and then disconnect it as my fail safe backup!



This is almost exactly my plan as well, except I will be cloning the boot drive to a now spare 2.5" hard drive... don't see a reason to waste an SSD on storage. Just waiting on usb 3.0 compatible flash drive to come in.

Anyone try to run W10 off of a USB altogether?


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## more_vampires (Aug 21, 2015)

InfinitusEquitas said:


> Thought MS skipping versions was king of par for the course/marketing, is there a deeper reason?


It's rumored to do with compatibility layer, old code, and application detection.

I believe it. Win32 was a horribly broken moving target under the hood, part of why the Wine interoperability project was so hard. The code monkies on both sides of the fence (open and closed source) had to do insane backflips to support it, and the MS compatibility folks even had all the secret NDA stuff. It was still a horrible kludge.

The rumor is that it's a "Y2K" style problem and it was easier to skip Win 9 than to fix the problem.

Sounds 100% believable to me, MS does this stuff all the time though it's getting better. The old old 16 bit code was a massive spaghetti ball, you could touch nothing without breaking something. The 32 bit was better, but part of me feels that MS outsource the 64 bit code because it isn't such a cluster as the stuff MS generates in-house. Redmond is full of little kingdoms and NIH (Not Invented Here.) Its part of the explaination for some of the insanity they bring. They outsource everything they possibly can.

http://www.neowin.net/news/rumors-s...ipped-over-windows-9-is-because-of-windows-95


> According to cranbourne the issue revolved around third party code which searches for "Windows 9*" (with the star being a wildcard). The code which conducts this search is looking for Windows 95 and 98 versions. Internal testing reportedly found out that this style of code was common enough to be an issue of consideration for Microsoft and their dev team.



Too many chefs.


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## Mr Floppy (Aug 22, 2015)

Added to that, some sites try and detect the OS version and will load a different code for Windows 9x. Usually a more resource friendly page, featureless. Supposedly when testing the new browser, it was getting the crappy pages. Not sure how true that is as I can't imagine anyone caring how a page will render on win 9x but I still get cut down pages on my n900.


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## QuantumSam (Aug 22, 2015)

Upgrade. I did it weeks ago. Best of win7 and win8.


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## moldyoldy (Aug 23, 2015)

dropping in briefly:

A short answer to the OP: I have several laptops in my extended family with WinXP, Win 7, Win 8.1. I myself will not be upgrading to Win 10 on any existing laptop (4). To my knowledge, no one else in the family will upgrade to any version of Win 10 with their existing laptops.

longer answer: At one point, I actually considered waiting until Win 10 Service Pack 1 is released in late Fall and maybe ordering another laptop to understand what the fuss was about. However the continuing revelations about the expanded Microsoft intrusions into local networking (Peer-Peer) and the MS enhanced surveillance of the local Win 10 installation, as well as statements from the head of Microsoft about the direction he wants to take Windows OS, have soured me on any future Windows operating system. 

Historically, I should want to upgrade. I spent my last working years as an IT manager. 

But, I am tired of Windows and minimal security and constant patches - a few of which were buggy. I started with 1 DOS and 5 (Toaster) Macs, migrated to Win 3.1 (?), Win 95, Win 98, Win 2000, dodged the ME mess, Unix, Win XP, Win 7 32bit (yuck), Win 7 64 bit (great!), dodged the Vista mess, Win 8.0 (yuck), Win 8.1 update 1 (almost a Win 7), Android. 

I am done with Windows. Es ist Schluss mit lustig!

Recently a Math Prof I know was issued an HP laptop with Win 8.1 by his University. He tolerated it for about a week, then wiped out Win 8.1 and installed Ubuntu on it. Historically his family used MacBooks. His last comment is that he would not purchase another MacBook either. He only needs a platform to run some form of Linux.

There is a lot of life left in my Windows laptops. After that, probably a Linux variant. 

A moldyoldy getting older...


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## recDNA (Aug 23, 2015)

Linux too much trouble to get drivers and some software to work. I don't know how you can stand it unless you are a coder.


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## moldyoldy (Aug 23, 2015)

yes and no. It depends on what the needs are. 

I am not a gamer, nor do I listen to music constantly, and I avoid social media (no accounts). 

Actually, since retirement, my needs are served nicely by the ChromeOS (a Linux variant) and the Google Cloud - email, reading various tech blogs, and family photo sharing. of course that means I went over to the dark side... I need nothing more than the Chrome OS built-in drivers. Above all, given my travels, I need portability and security of computing.

After skimming some of the Chrome OS design documents, I acknowledge that Google did build in serious security to the ChromeOS: multi-layered sandboxing, built-in encryption, and a kernel that will automatically restore itself if some bug managed to get past the sandboxing. Phishing is about the only likely danger left for a user.


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## recDNA (Aug 23, 2015)

But no real Microsoft Office. Their app won't let you save to your hard drive right?


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## moldyoldy (Aug 23, 2015)

recDNA said:


> But no real Microsoft Office. Their app won't let you save to your hard drive right?



Not directly as a standard Windows user would understand it. For example on a Chromebook, 
- assuming that the selected file is on the Google Cloud, 
- open the GDOC file with Google Docs, 
- download it in the MS Office Word *.docx format to the local Chromebook.
- which means it only is d/l'd to the local Downloads folder, 
- then copy it to a flash drive or any hard drive plugged in to the USB port(s). The local SSD drive should be treated as only a transient storage location.

In the Chromebook world, with only 4GB of RAM and usually 16GB of SSD (eMMC) file space, all files are expected to be stored on the Google Cloud. the downloads folder is the sole intended recipient of _transient_ files. 

Note: In some rare instance, if the ChromeOS runs out of RAM, the Downloads folder can be used... as some owners discovered after trying to store all their files in the downloads folder as if they were on a Windows OS.

The Chromebook is built around the Chrome Browser and Google Drive. Many extensions to the browser are possible, but those often worsen security, especially if enabled in 'incognito' mode which is the preferred mode for improving the already good security.

Ref MS Office: I paid good money repeatedly for the full MS Office suite, outside of the "Gold" DVDs that we used at work. However in later years, I found myself using only the primary 3: Word, Excel, and PP. when MS made the last change to Office 365, I balked and walked away. OpenOffice.org was sufficient. Frankly, if I truly needed MS Office Word, Office Online is currently still free and very functional.


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## moldyoldy (Aug 23, 2015)

said differently, the computing world is changing to a 'Cloud' mode with local thin-clients only. The local user views only a 'screen-scrape' from the cloud-based file via a browser. Google offers the Google Drive with 15GB of free space. MS offers OneDrive with 15GB of free space. etc. etc. Picasa runs on a subset of the Google Drive system. Snapfish runs on an HP cloud system.

At first I resisted this latest cloud change, but then realized that "Resistance is futile, you will be assimilated", if for no other reason than the existing computing world is changing and the change is accelerating. But then I resisted the change from the old 'everything for an app in one folder, including drivers' to the roughly the current Windows system with central resources. In any case, our engineers were strongly advised to NEVER store any work material on their local computers, only on the company servers that were backed up. If something happened to their local computer, we gave their case about 30 min and reformatted their hard drive. That lesson hurt, but it stuck.

There are a very few cases where the cloud storage is NOT acceptable. eg: HIPAA Compliance, any classified info at the national or business level. A specific example: local handling of medical email: no matter how many University emails that Google takes over, and Google has taken over a LOT of university email systems, medical services will never be served by a Google Cloud - per some University top-level sysadmins.

As an aside on the Windows Registry: Once a long time ago, Microsoft sent out some 'walk-on-water' consultants to our large business. Near the end of their work, I managed to corner one of them in an empty conference room and asked the question: "Who at Microsoft understands the Registry?" His answer? (paraphrased) "there are a few at Microsoft, but I am not one of them".


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## PhotonWrangler (Aug 23, 2015)

...and if this guy's findings are true, the Microsoft security issue just got way worse.


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## Mr Floppy (Aug 23, 2015)

recDNA said:


> Linux too much trouble to get drivers and some software to work. I don't know how you can stand it unless you are a coder.



Drivers are pretty bad with windows too, especially later versions. Sticking with the major Linux distributions such as mint makes most of that easy.


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## moldyoldy (Aug 23, 2015)

back on topic: 

There are many blogs which identify that: "Windows 10: Your PC Is Headed For The Cloud". One prediction for this changeover is 2020. other blogs identify phases for earlier dates.

The new head of Microsoft, Satya Nadella, was responsible for the very profitable introduction of Office 365, which was the first step in moving Microsoft to cloud-based computing. Mr. Nadella has made repeated comments to the effect that he will progressively move Windows 10 to the cloud. There are many reasons, not the least of which is combatting SW piracy. 

MS Office itself is only a short step from being cloud-based only. MS no longer sells any 'installation' with a DVD. To 'install' MS Office on a local PC, you log in to your MS account, enter the purchased license key, and allow MS servers to decide which parts of the MS Office will be d/l'd and installed on your computer. 

Even with an existing validly purchased DVD, installations of MS Office are no longer possible w/o logging in to your Microsoft account, and probably talking with an MS rep besides. That DVD you hold in your hand is useless.


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## moldyoldy (Aug 23, 2015)

FWIW: Microsoft operating systems and software have always talked to the 'Mother Ship'. with Windows 10, the surveillance is sharply increasing.

eg: Engineers I know that returned from the Middle East or Far East with cloned (pirated) copies of MS operating systems or SW have said that if the PC that they installed that OS on was allowed online, sooner or later that pirated OS would be shut down. Eventually MS blocked that route by allowing some 30 launches without authentication and then the SW was shut down.

eg: back in the Win2000 days, since my techs were overloaded with trouble calls, I took a call from an engineer who I knew was quite crippled physically. He used a personal organizer (Palm?) and had installed Outlook on his home PC and wanted to install it on a work PC. His attempts to install Outlook on the work PC were blocked. I logged in with my sysadmin ID and discovered that I also could not install Outlook. I did not want to use our 'Gold' DVDs, so I called the number offered in the error message on-screen. The number traced to a Redmond WA location. A woman answered on the _first_ ring. She was very competent and business-like. I explained who I was and explained what I was trying to do and why. She was very accomodating and said that Microsoft would allow that installation. She then read off a license ID to me and Outlook installed from the engineer's DVD perfectly. I thanked her and hung up. The point is that in our interaction, she told me facts about the engineer that I did not tell her, such as his MS SW installations. !


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## recDNA (Aug 24, 2015)

moldyoldy said:


> Not directly as a standard Windows user would understand it. For example on a Chromebook,
> - assuming that the selected file is on the Google Cloud,
> - open the GDOC file with Google Docs,
> - download it in the MS Office Word *.docx format to the local Chromebook.
> ...


Yes because I love 6 extra steps instead of ctrl-s.


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## recDNA (Aug 24, 2015)

moldyoldy said:


> said differently, the computing world is changing to a 'Cloud' mode with local thin-clients only. The local user views only a 'screen-scrape' from the cloud-based file via a browser. Google offers the Google Drive with 15GB of free space. MS offers OneDrive with 15GB of free space. etc. etc. Picasa runs on a subset of the Google Drive system. Snapfish runs on an HP cloud system.
> 
> At first I resisted this latest cloud change, but then realized that "Resistance is futile, you will be assimilated", if for no other reason than the existing computing world is changing and the change is accelerating. But then I resisted the change from the old 'everything for an app in one folder, including drivers' to the roughly the current Windows system with central resources. In any case, our engineers were strongly advised to NEVER store any work material on their local computers, only on the company servers that were backed up. If something happened to their local computer, we gave their case about 30 min and reformatted their hard drive. That lesson hurt, but it stuck.
> 
> ...


Private company servers are fine but few of us have that option. Once a file is uploaded to Google Drive or One Note or Drop box or whatever we no longer control it. It isn't even possible to truly delete it. We can only delete OUR access to it. If the IRS along with major US corporations can be hacked so can Google Drive etc. Now my personal computer can also he hacked but there would have to be a reason to target me. You hack google you have everyone's info. I will never give up private storage of my private files (not work product) on my own hard drive if for no other reason so i can access them if net goes down.


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## recDNA (Aug 24, 2015)

Mr Floppy said:


> Drivers are pretty bad with windows too, especially later versions. Sticking with the major Linux distributions such as mint makes most of that easy.


No easy is doing nothing. I did nothing to install drivers of ANY of my current hardware.


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## recDNA (Aug 24, 2015)

moldyoldy said:


> back on topic:
> 
> There are many blogs which identify that: "Windows 10: Your PC Is Headed For The Cloud". One prediction for this changeover is 2020. other blogs identify phases for earlier dates.
> 
> ...


Not true in Windows 7. I've never logged in to my windows account and I have installed Office from a flash drive.


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## MtnDon (Aug 24, 2015)

I am holding off on updating our two Win 8.1 laptops, until 10 has been out a few months. I plan to update a lesser used Win7 machine first at that time. I'm just cautious. We have one small desktop that runs 8.1 and we will never update it most likely. It's our TV / media center... Win10 does not support the Windows media center in 7 and 8. 

I got rid of my major dislike about Win8, the lack of a start menu, by installing a $5 program from Stardock. It makes the menu in 8 / 8.1 work like that in Win7.


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## Mr Floppy (Aug 24, 2015)

recDNA said:


> No easy is doing nothing. I did nothing to install drivers of ANY of my current hardware.



Yes, that's the case with Linux mint. It is why I have it on a usb stick and not just a rescue disk. Boots into most system with all hardware supported. Even does a few Intel Macs but importantly for me is booting older systems.


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## moldyoldy (Aug 24, 2015)

recDNA said:


> Private company servers are fine but few of us have that option. Once a file is uploaded to Google Drive or One Note or Drop box or whatever we no longer control it. It isn't even possible to truly delete it. We can only delete OUR access to it. If the IRS along with major US corporations can be hacked so can Google Drive etc. Now my personal computer can also he hacked but there would have to be a reason to target me. You hack google you have everyone's info. I will never give up private storage of my private files (not work product) on my own hard drive if for no other reason so i can access them if net goes down.



I share your viewpoint. I retain all of my personal identity and financial files on a flash drive, and backed up to a WD hard drive, both of which are normally offine.

However, I am acutely aware that many agencies have extensive info on us, not the least of which is the DMV in any state, all medical facilities, any utilities, any taxation by state or IRS, nearly any online purchases - all together a fairly complete personal profile can be assembled. About all we can do is provide the minimum info to each service and hope that the hackers do not connect the dots.

I guess the point is that Win 10 may have enhanced security against direct hacking/virii/trojan/keystroke logger attempts, but the personal security vis-a-vis Microsoft itself is sharply reduced.


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## moldyoldy (Aug 24, 2015)

Mr Floppy said:


> Yes, that's the case with Linux mint. It is why I have it on a usb stick and not just a rescue disk. Boots into most system with all hardware supported. Even does a few Intel Macs but importantly for me is booting older systems.



that is roughly the same system as the Math Professor who gave up on Win 8.1 a week after receiving his new HP laptop from the University and installed Unbuntu. He can boot just about any device from a flash drive. An effective system!


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## moldyoldy (Aug 24, 2015)

recDNA said:


> Not true in Windows 7. I've never logged in to my windows account and I have installed Office from a flash drive.




Understood. To my knowledge, Win 7 was the last MS OS that did not require logging in to a Microsoft account just to use the OS. For Win 8.1, I seem to have no choice at OS launch. 

As for MS Office installations, MS changed their installation system around the time of Office 2010 introduction. I had several legal full-up Office 2003 installations that installed directly from the DVD. Then I realized that no one was using the extra features, so I switched to Office 2007 Home and Student which provided 1 license key for 3 installations. No problems at installation from the supplied DVD. Then when Office 2010 was released, I purchased a test copy: only a license key was provided for a single installation, no DVD. Hence I was dragged thru the 'new' MS installation method. So when someone wanted their Office 2003 upgraded, I chose to use one of my several unused Office 2007 installations. The install failed. Called MS and talked with a capable MS tech. He did allow the 'extra' installation, but with a different license key. By the time we were done, he told me the rest of the story: online installations only, and one installation per consumer license.

Ref Windows operating systems talking to the Mother Ship. When my company switched from Win 2000 to Win 7, we ran a sniffer on a test Win 7 OS in a lab. Even the experienced sysadmins were amazed at the comms chat between Win 7 and MS servers. Win 8 and now Win 10 continue the accelerating trend of operating systems communicating back home. No joke - we will 'own' less and less of the OS that we are using. think back to the days of thin-clients hooked up to huge servers, but all still on company property....


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## moldyoldy (Aug 24, 2015)

sad to say, but I now realize that my laptop upgrade to an Intel i7 Quad-Core CPU running at 2.6Ghz with 12GB of RAM is almost a waste, except for learning first-hand about Win 8.1 and not just trying to fix the many problems with other Win 8.x installations. Most of the time my new laptop is running NOPs. Forget about Win 10 anything.


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## recDNA (Aug 24, 2015)

moldyoldy said:


> Understood. To my knowledge, Win 7 was the last MS OS that did not require logging in to a Microsoft account just to use the OS. For Win 8.1, I seem to have no choice at OS launch.
> 
> As for MS Office installations, MS changed their installation system around the time of Office 2010 introduction. I had several legal full-up Office 2003 installations that installed directly from the DVD. Then I realized that no one was using the extra features, so I switched to Office 2007 Home and Student which provided 1 license key for 3 installations. No problems at installation from the supplied DVD. Then when Office 2010 was released, I purchased a test copy: only a license key was provided for a single installation, no DVD. Hence I was dragged thru the 'new' MS installation method. So when someone wanted their Office 2003 upgraded, I chose to use one of my several unused Office 2007 installations. The install failed. Called MS and talked with a capable MS tech. He did allow the 'extra' installation, but with a different license key. By the time we were done, he told me the rest of the story: online installations only, and one installation per consumer license.
> 
> Ref Windows operating systems talking to the Mother Ship. When my company switched from Win 2000 to Win 7, we ran a sniffer on a test Win 7 OS in a lab. Even the experienced sysadmins were amazed at the comms chat between Win 7 and MS servers. Win 8 and now Win 10 continue the accelerating trend of operating systems communicating back home. No joke - we will 'own' less and less of the OS that we are using. think back to the days of thin-clients hooked up to huge servers, but all still on company property....


I have a desktop and 2 laptops. Both laptops are 8.1 though both were originally 8.0 All 3 have Windows Student 2007 installed from a flash drive. I never had to consult with anyone. I just installed it. Used the same key. I guess I got lucky. I did have occasion to speak with Microsoft on an unrelated issue and rep told me I had installed Office 5 times. I explained that I reinstalled after upgrade from 8 to 8.1 but had no problem when I did. As it turned out my problem was with windows not office but I thought I had an office problem. The funny part is the rep tried to switch me to paid help. I refused but then he proceeded to spend an hour with me solving my problem with windows and did solve it but he had to do something at his end. My problem was I had a weird yellow symbol next to my name where I had logged in. Anyway he did something and it went away. I couldn't cure it at my end.

One of my laptops came with Windows 2010 " installed" and the other had windows 325. I uninstalled those versions because when I tried to open Office 2007 the newer version would open and beg for money. LOL

Sounds like Windows 10 is a horror story of intrusiveness. It's funny. I don't mind government monitoring of internet nor being on CC tv nor Google tracking everything I buy or everyplace I go BUT my private files on my own hard drive are mine, mine, mine!

Ubuntu and open source programs could have all kinds of spyware put in it before I download them so I don't trust them either.


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## Mr Floppy (Aug 24, 2015)

recDNA said:


> Ubuntu and open source programs could have all kinds of spyware put in it before I download them so I don't trust them either.



If you are going to download stuff from untrustworthy sources, then it doesn't matter what platform you are on. Trusted repositories are a part of all the major Linux distributions. It is why apple wants you to use the app store and windows wants you to use their equivalent. With open source, you have thousands of obsessive nerds scouring the code so it is at least better than closed source in that there is a constant review. 

Dialling back home is not new but apple and Android have got into trouble for less. I think it would be rather ballsy by Microsoft if all this was going on. Hope they got their lawyers cashed up. (Well no I don't )


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## more_vampires (Aug 24, 2015)

moldyoldy said:


> I guess the point is that Win 10 may have enhanced security against direct hacking/virii/trojan/keystroke logger attempts, but the personal security vis-a-vis Microsoft itself is sharply reduced.


Says who? Microsoft? I *guarantee *that stuff is/was in there from day one. MS is under NDA not to squeal on the NSA. Enhanced security? Lol, no, try backdoors for the NSA.



recDNA said:


> Sounds like Windows 10 is a horror story of intrusiveness. It's funny. I don't mind government monitoring of internet nor being on CC tv nor Google tracking everything I buy or everyplace I go BUT my private files on my own hard drive are mine, mine, mine!
> 
> Ubuntu and open source programs could have all kinds of spyware put in it before I download them so I don't trust them either.


Ubuntu is a bit of a pariah amoung linux distros. They did this when they sold out to the devil and started shipping with spyware. This is part of their "monetize absolutely everything" agenda. Ubuntu got publicly busted shipping spyware, that's when I jumped ship. Too many distros out there to waste time with one that you know is stabbing you in the back. AFAIK, Linux Mint distro is still in a state of grace. If they pooch it, another will take its place.

MS Office is not relevant anymore to today's software market. Just use the open free alternatives; they have no marketing reasons to try to lock you in with changes to proprietary file formats. Libre Office is far, far, less evil than MS Office ever was.

Frankly, I don't understand why anyone would pay more than $0 for an office software suite.


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## moldyoldy (Aug 24, 2015)

not to toss some more high-octane avgas on the flames of Win 10, but:

From Torrent

or regarding the question of even being able to turn off data collection:

note that the above link evidently uses info from the same source as PhotoWrangler linked in post #99. 

Frankly, I prefer to keep sources independent. I do not know whose bathwater is being drunk. 


I guess my current view on the developing Win 10 privacy mess is that Win 10 is behaving just like a thin-client, not like a standalone computer installation. or maybe even worse since thin clients do not usually try to collect personal data.


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## NoNotAgain (Aug 24, 2015)

I purchased from Microsoft's HUP program, Office 2010 when it first became available as I knew the company I worked for were in the beta test stages and I didn't want to come into work one morning to find that they installed new software without asking if there was a reason I shouldn't have been upgraded.

MS direct shipped the DVD's to my house. By license, I am allowed to have two machines running via one license, one desk top and one lap top.

Through the Home User Program (HUP) MS charged $10 for the program and $10 for the media.

Recently purchased another copy of Office 2010 and a copy of Office 2013. Got used to 2010, don't like 2013 at all. I'd of stayed with Office 2003, but when they changed to the four character file extension and my slide business customers started sending the new format files, Office 2010 became a necessity. I hate pictographs. Just give me a drop down menu and life is good.I neither have time nor want to learn where items are now hidden in new software.


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## recDNA (Aug 24, 2015)

more_vampires said:


> Says who? Microsoft? I *guarantee *that stuff is/was in there from day one. MS is under NDA not to squeal on the NSA. Enhanced security? Lol, no, try backdoors for the NSA.
> 
> Ubuntu is a bit of a pariah amoung linux distros. They did this when they sold out to the devil and started shipping with spyware. This is part of their "monetize absolutely everything" agenda. Ubuntu got publicly busted shipping spyware, that's when I jumped ship. Too many distros out there to waste time with one that you know is stabbing you in the back. AFAIK, Linux Mint distro is still in a state of grace. If they pooch it, another will take its place.
> 
> ...


I'm a professor and there are some functions in PowerPoint that I need and are not in open office. I also need a format all of my students have and is on College computers. I'm pretty much handcuffed to Microsoft Office.


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## recDNA (Aug 24, 2015)

NoNotAgain said:


> I purchased from Microsoft's HUP program, Office 2010 when it first became available as I knew the company I worked for were in the beta test stages and I didn't want to come into work one morning to find that they installed new software without asking if there was a reason I shouldn't have been upgraded.
> 
> MS direct shipped the DVD's to my house. By license, I am allowed to have two machines running via one license, one desk top and one lap top.
> 
> ...


LOL - I was pissed when they went from the old drop down menu that listed just about everything at the top to the "ribbon" system with categories at the top. I've not used 2010 at all and hope I won't have to!


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## bjt3833 (Aug 24, 2015)

Yeah I got 2 copies of windows 7 for less than $30 each through the student discounts. I know my pro 64bit version was 29 and I think the home edition was 19 but maybe it was 29 too.


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## recDNA (Aug 24, 2015)

bjt3833 said:


> Yeah I got 2 copies of windows 7 for less than $30 each through the student discounts. I know my pro 64bit version was 29 and I think the home edition was 19 but maybe it was 29 too.


Of course they will eventually stop supporting Windows 7. Hopefully a class action suit will shut down the intrusive nature of Windows 10. I doubt it though because Windows 8 is also very intrusive. Why should an os have any ability to access the net without our knowledge or permission?


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## moldyoldy (Aug 24, 2015)

recDNA said:


> I'm a professor and there are some functions in PowerPoint that I need and are not in open office. I also need a format all of my students have and is on College computers. I'm pretty much handcuffed to Microsoft Office.



FWIW, my wife was also a professor, now retired. MS nearly gives away their Office Suite to college students - locks them in, but also provides commonality of media. Unfortunately MS periodically changes the formats of their MS Office product. As a result, many students have complained that papers submitted electronically to the prof did not format the same way on the Prof's University-issued computer. YMMV!

Whenever I need the 'real' MS Office (Word, Excel, PPT), I simply use the Office Online which is totally free, assuming a Microsoft account, at least for now. Of course that assumes that I have an Internet connection. Regrettably during travel conditions, sharing a WiFi with a 100+ other passengers in the airport waiting area is not conducive to a calming travel experience. This is one clear condition where a tablet with cellular data, especially 4G LTE, takes over.

I just hope that ICANN is able to retain control of the Internet & the TLDs. Otherwise, if the various nations are able to take over bits 'n pieces of the Internet, all of these beliefs and plans will fly out the window (pun) . The move from IPV4 to IPV6 is also introducing some churn into Internet controls.

In any case, the ongoing discoveries in Windows 10 simply reinforces the realization that computer users are in a transition phase from 'a computer can do everything by itself' to 'thin-clients and Internet is assumed'. Windows 10 is just another irritating bump on that path. The Cloud is taking over!


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## PhotonWrangler (Aug 24, 2015)

I know of at least one corporation that had a backlash after deploying thin clients. The terminals were so dependent upon the network for everything that whenever there was a network interruption, _everything_ stopped cold. They finally threw it all out and went back to desktops and laptops, where at least the employees could continue to work on documents and save them to their local drives during outages.

Thin clients and cloud computing aren't always the best approach.


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## recDNA (Aug 24, 2015)

Hate to see technology heading in the wrong direction. Until now in my life it has been a steady improvement with every year something new and exciting. Maybe back to Apple. I used Apple computers for many years dating back to the //e. There are still Apple computers in my department as well as PC. Not so all of the school.


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## moldyoldy (Aug 24, 2015)

PhotonWrangler said:


> I know of at least one corporation that had a backlash after deploying thin clients. The terminals were so dependent upon the network for everything that whenever there was a network interruption, _everything_ stopped cold. They finally threw it all out and went back to desktops and laptops, where at least the employees could continue to work on documents and save them to their local drives during outages.
> 
> Thin clients and cloud computing aren't always the best approach.



+1. 

When I first started work as an EE in the company I eventually retired from, the IT director at the time insisted on running Windows as a thin-client to a local server. So he purchased minimal config personal desktops and forced all actual computing to the servers. At that time, even Microsoft did not recommend that operations method. The engineers had nothing but grief with that system, even if all the routers and switches functioned correctly and no one cross-connected Ethernet cables under the cubes. eg: We wanted to run an analysis all weekend long, but the sysadmins wanted at least one day a week for patches. Constant conflict. By the time I joined IT, SGI was on it's way out, Sun 60s were the king of the computing hill, and 'personal computer' desktops were rather decent computers in their own right running a standalone Windows OS.

Given the rather significant churn over Windows 10 surveillance of the user, I wonder how long Mr. Nadella will adhere to his vision of Windows 10 and any schedule in his mind. MS still has to earn $$.


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## NoNotAgain (Aug 24, 2015)

Before my departure from corporate America, the Fortune 10 that I worked for decided that they were moving everything to web based apps. Our problem was that they replaced three major applications and rolled everything into the all inclusive Oracle R12 with modules for QC, finance, order writing and time keeping.

The new servers we were promised went offsite to the Motherland. IT support sucked as they worked 8AM-5PM The Mothership wanted complete control of everything we did, but forgot about the backbone to supply the data pipe. The data pipe couldn't handle 500 users attempting to input their time cards between 3-5PM on Fridays. Frequently with the system down, you had to wait a couple of hours to input your time or come in on the weekend to do so, otherwise they would no longer just credit your account for having worked 40 hours.

The TipQA module was the biggest piece of crap to be foisted on us. I forget what the splash screen called it, but we had different words. 

A local contractor cut into the fiber connection for data and left us without conductivity for five days. Everything had to be completed on paper, then updated electronic once the system came back on line. Lots of items got missed and billing wasn't able to charge for product shipped nor could any of the customers receive the certifications required before entry into service.

I squirreled away a stand alone printer and was able to cope until they would no longer reimburse for the toner cartridges. Too frequently I ended up having to print customer documents required for their sign off before shipment was allowed because the system was down and I was the only one that saved copied of files locally.

Thank god that part of my life is over. Can't say I miss all of the BS or the out of town IT folks that didn't have a clue what we needed to do our job.


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## markr6 (Aug 24, 2015)

I keep debating it, but decided I'll wait for something as awesome as Windows ME.


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## Ladd (Aug 24, 2015)

No.







.....No!!!


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## PhotonWrangler (Aug 24, 2015)

I'm honestly hoping this winds up with the DOJ calling them on the carpet for their egregious privacy over-reach, and they make some fundamental changes in the OS because of it. IF that happens and IF I have a sense that they'll really change their ways, I'll consider Windows 10.


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## recDNA (Aug 24, 2015)

NoNotAgain said:


> Before my departure from corporate America, the Fortune 10 that I worked for decided that they were moving everything to web based apps. Our problem was that they replaced three major applications and rolled everything into the all inclusive Oracle R12 with modules for QC, finance, order writing and time keeping.
> 
> The new servers we were promised went offsite to the Motherland. IT support sucked as they worked 8AM-5PM The Mothership wanted complete control of everything we did, but forgot about the backbone to supply the data pipe. The data pipe couldn't handle 500 users attempting to input their time cards between 3-5PM on Fridays. Frequently with the system down, you had to wait a couple of hours to input your time or come in on the weekend to do so, otherwise they would no longer just credit your account for having worked 40 hours.
> 
> ...


My wife is still complaining about the switch in her company from SAP with instant billing to Oracle and batch runs at night. And then her company moved a lot of the data entry positions to another country and expects them to take over more and more of the work. In the meanwhile the Americans do all the work setting up new contracts in Oracle then send it to this foreign country where the key pushers submit it for batch processing. It's nuts. IT is also overseas.

Oh...and I forgot to mention her company plans to switch to Windows 10 in 2015. She will be cranky. LOL


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## Steve K (Aug 25, 2015)

PhotonWrangler said:


> I'm honestly hoping this winds up with the DOJ calling them on the carpet for their egregious privacy over-reach, and they make some fundamental changes in the OS because of it. IF that happens and IF I have a sense that they'll really change their ways, I'll consider Windows 10.



just popping in to say that I've been enjoying listening to this discussion of Win10, and dreading when I'll have to transition to it. I think I'll be putting that off as long as possible.

Also wanted to respond to PW's comment with the observation that Europe seems to be much better at telling MS to stop doing whatever sociopathic thing they happen to be currently doing. Does anyone know if Win10 is being rolled out over there?


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## NoNotAgain (Aug 25, 2015)

Any corporation that thinks they're going to make the switch to Windows 10 without retraining their personnel are kidding themselves. There are too many differences between XP, Win 7, and Windows 10, to just throw a new OS at them and expect no disruption in work flow. 

Just the file storage structure between XP and Win 7 was a huge change.

The Mothership's IT people always modified the base OS. The version of Win 7 on my personal laptop was in many ways different than the corporate modified version they were running. Having the ability to plug into a phone jack to send files when the server was down was a life saver.

We were on XP until December 2012, when the switch was thrown. Because of the nature of work we did, they were many software programs that were equipment specific that were never tested for compatibility before roll out.

I submitted all of my software applications for approval and forced the local IT admin to install and get it running before I'd sign off the work was complete. When the switch to Win 7 was rolled out, (over a weekend with no user input) I had test equipment software that wasn't tested or loaded on the machine. I didn't want to hear the excuse from the help desk IT person that they didn't know I needed this or that program or why weren't notified you were using that. 

I kept all of my e-mail unlike a government cabinet member. A quick search of my request approval folder yielded many approved installs which were forwarded. FIX the machine or provide me a charge number to do it myself. The local desk top support team folks were great to deal with, but the Mothership wouldn't give them access to the e-mail servers or quite a few other items required to do their jobs.

Good luck to your wife and the change over to 10. I can't imagine Oracle corp is going to be of much help with dealing with the drivers that will be required to be able to use legacy printers or all of the modules that will need to communicate.


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## recDNA (Aug 25, 2015)

She doesn't work for Oracle. My point was the company she works for switched from SAP software to Oracle software but I agree a lot of their current hardware is old and will not work.


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## NoNotAgain (Aug 25, 2015)

I wasn't insinuating that she worked for Oracle. 

Oracle for whatever reason forgets that their users in the corporate world don't typically jump hardware systems to something new without support. The printers that cut checks are one item that wasn't supported. Just look at your local bank and the cashiers check printer, it's still an impact type printer.

With everybody moving to cloud type services and centralized copy/printers, they forget about the back office needs.


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## ven (Aug 25, 2015)

Steve K said:


> e.
> 
> Also wanted to respond to PW's comment with the observation that Europe seems to be much better at telling MS to stop doing whatever sociopathic thing they happen to be currently doing. Does anyone know if Win10 is being rolled out over there?



It is in the UK!! I have had it on around a month,come from windows 7. Other than an annoying update every couple of days or so,its been working fine. However i am not running lots of programs and use it for general stuff.

So far OK


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## moldyoldy (Aug 25, 2015)

In Germany, Win 10 was released and is being installed - with all of the previously reported problems in US blogs. Especially the problems for those users with nVidia graphics and the constant rebooting as well as the idea that MS is watching & reporting on ALL actions of the user! 

However one problem visible in the German blogs/media is that not only does Win 10 disable/remove 'obsolete' programs, but that if your local A/V program expires, it is automatically removed and Windows Defender installed as a replacement! Huh?!? Aua! A paid A/V program that expired is obvious. However what about the free A/V programs that have not had a definitions update in a few days? I really wonder how Win 10 decides that a program is obsolete and worse still, disables or removes it. Does not Win 10 acknowledge 'legacy' programs? 

ie: I retain a couple Win XP Netbooks solely because some programs on which I spent too much money only run under WinXP, not even Win 7 Pro in the protected mode. 

In particular, Computerbild.de rated the A/V properties of Win 10 to be 'weak'. <<really?!? Win 10 was supposed to have improved A/V qualities!>> Overall, the Computerbild rating for Win 10 was only 'satisfactory' @ 2.78 <<with 1 being the best score>>.

Worse still, the upcoming update Threshold beta does not appear to be solving many problems - as noted in beta testing by outside geeks.

edit: ref Win 10 removing expired or 'old' A/V programs, read/translate this page


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## InfinitusEquitas (Aug 25, 2015)

So far (discounting the privacy issues that may or may not exist - I'm honestly not 100% convinced either way) I have had only three problems with Windows 10, and both on the same computer.

1. Desktop refuses to ever turn off bluetooth, which doesn't bother me so much on a desktop when it's not discoverable, but, BUT, it also refuses to connect to devices already paired, and I've had to delete and re-pair to use headset again.
2. Razer Blackwidow Ultimate 2011 keyboard refuses to work with W10 (works in bios, lights up, works on other PCs [using it right now]) did everything I could think of to fix the problem, but to no avail. Only possibility left is a clean install of windows with the keyboard connected, hoping that it will work.
3. Device Setup process refuses to stop after a device is connected, and pops up randomly. Causing a busy flash on the cursor, and minor drain on processing.
4. Not quite sure of this is an issue even, since changing to new PC which is very quiet, but the three mechanical internal HD's I have installed are seemingly randomly powering on and off from idle.

I'm hoping a clean install will fix all of these issues, otherwise I might be forced to revert that computer back to W7, at least for a while. And being my main personal computer it's also the one I care most about with regards to privacy.


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## moldyoldy (Aug 25, 2015)

Steve K said:


> just popping in to say that I've been enjoying listening to this discussion of Win10, and dreading when I'll have to transition to it. I think I'll be putting that off as long as possible.
> 
> Also wanted to respond to PW's comment with the observation that Europe seems to be much better at telling MS to stop doing whatever sociopathic thing they happen to be currently doing. Does anyone know if Win10 is being rolled out over there?



more directly, per Focus.de, as of 17 August, Windows 10 is installed on every 10th computer in Germany.


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## more_vampires (Aug 26, 2015)

recDNA said:


> I'm a professor and there are some functions in PowerPoint that I need and are not in open office. I also need a format all of my students have and is on College computers. I'm pretty much handcuffed to Microsoft Office.


This lockin technique is called "embrace and extend" by Microsoft themselves, old hat for them. They even tried to closed-source C++. Don't forget; *open source*. Contact your Computer Science department. If the code changes are good, then they should submit them to the community. It's the only way to defeat the Borg.



moldyoldy said:


> more directly, per Focus.de, as of 17 August, Windows 10 is installed on every 10th computer in Germany.


Wow, MS is decimating the security and privacy of Germany! 

From this, we can infer that the NSA has control of greater than 10% of the computers of Germany.

Borg assimilation of Germany, 10% complete.


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## recDNA (Aug 26, 2015)

more_vampires said:


> This lockin technique is called "embrace and extend" by Microsoft themselves, old hat for them. They even tried to closed-source C++. Don't forget; *open source*. Contact your Computer Science department. If the code changes are good, then they should submit them to the community. It's the only way to defeat the Borg.
> 
> Wow, MS is decimating the security and privacy of Germany!
> 
> From this, we can infer that the NSA has control of greater than 10% of the computers of Germany.


Resistance is futile


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## more_vampires (Aug 26, 2015)

recDNA said:


> Resistance is futile


Microsoft: Resistance is futile. (closed source.)

Open Source: Resistance = Volts/Amps


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## usdiver (Aug 26, 2015)

I ll stick with XP long as I can, then go to windows 7! If I can't I ll go Mac. 8 or 10 is NOT an option as I don't like control and being forced to have something I don't want


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## scs (Aug 26, 2015)

I've been searching and haven't found an answer.
My current Windows OS is 64-bit, will the free upgrade be 64-bit as well?
Thanks.


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## ven (Aug 26, 2015)

Good Q, i thought it was and it should be but i noticed a lot of programs showing 32bit. After the updates i have no say in, then my laptop seems to be a bit slower and has switched off twice in the last day. Soooooooo gone back to windows 7 pro now. Some things i will miss like the task manager, wont miss the app part and lay out(more used to 7 i guess).

Will wait till some good reports and improvements (if there ever is :laughing: ) .


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## scs (Aug 26, 2015)

ven said:


> Good Q, i thought it was and it should be but i noticed a lot of programs showing 32bit. After the updates i have no say in, then my laptop seems to be a bit slower and has switched off twice in the last day. Soooooooo gone back to windows 7 pro now. Some things i will miss like the task manager, wont miss the app part and lay out(more used to 7 i guess).
> 
> Will wait till some good reports and improvements (if there ever is :laughing: ) .



Well that would suck as I would have 5 gigs of RAM the 32 bit new OS would not be able to use. Microsooooooft!


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## InfinitusEquitas (Aug 26, 2015)

scs said:


> I've been searching and haven't found an answer.
> My current Windows OS is 64-bit, will the free upgrade be 64-bit as well?
> Thanks.



Yes, if you upgrade from a 64 bit OS, you will get a 64 bit OS.

Only issue would be if you have windows 7 ultimate, since there is no windows 10 ultimate you would end up with the Pro version instead. Still 64 bit though.


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## NoNotAgain (Aug 26, 2015)

5 gigs? Slacker! :devil: I can understand not wanting to lose access to any ram that you paid for.

My lap tops have 16 gigs and the work stations have 64 gigs. I still don't fully trust SSD drives unless they are enterprise versions. New Eggg recently claimed to be selling 2TB SSD drives for $230, which if they are a quality drive is a good price. I'll stay with my 7200 rpm drives with 16 or 32 megs of cache.

With my set up, you can allocate how much memory you want to dedicate to a program. When I'm using Autocad, I allow it to use 48 gigs of ram. That way it doesn't have to access the hard drive for anything after it opens the file. Way faster that way.


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## scs (Aug 26, 2015)

InfinitusEquitas said:


> Yes, if you upgrade from a 64 bit OS, you will get a 64 bit OS.
> 
> Only issue would be if you have windows 7 ultimate, since there is no windows 10 ultimate you would end up with the Pro version instead. Still 64 bit though.


That's a relief. Thanks.


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## scs (Aug 26, 2015)

NoNotAgain said:


> 5 gigs? Slacker! :devil: I can understand not wanting to lose access to any ram that you paid for.
> 
> My lap tops have 16 gigs and the work stations have 64 gigs. I still don't fully trust SSD drives unless they are enterprise versions. New Eggg recently claimed to be selling 2TB SSD drives for $230, which if they are a quality drive is a good price. I'll stay with my 7200 rpm drives with 16 or 32 megs of cache.
> 
> With my set up, you can allocate how much memory you want to dedicate to a program. When I'm using Autocad, I allow it to use 48 gigs of ram. That way it doesn't have to access the hard drive for anything after it opens the file. Way faster that way.



You got quite a powerhouse there!


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## NoNotAgain (Aug 26, 2015)

I learned a long time ago that ram was much faster than a hard drive having to spin up to access data, then write to disk. If you work entirely in ram it happens immediately.

Both Dell and HP give you the ability to BYO. The Precision laptops are called mobile work stations. Really too heavy to carry around as a lap top, but lots of power and they have 4 slots for ram and good graphics cards.

The HP workstations have 8 slots and dual quad core Xeons. Ram for it due to being ECC (error correcting) is expensive. You order them with 16 gigs for starters and add when the money is available. 

Check out the price on this Xeon processor. http://www.memory4less.com/m4l_item...aghj0I0Z4nc6n7Rw9WzCx3f625bTEvIcVEaApzK8P8HAQ not mine and I'll never spend that much money even on an entire system.


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## Mr Floppy (Aug 26, 2015)

NoNotAgain said:


> That way it doesn't have to access the hard drive for anything after it opens the file. Way faster that way.



With that much ram, don't worry about giving it a page file. Windows has a stupid paging policy where it writes to the page file far too often.


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## InfinitusEquitas (Aug 27, 2015)

NoNotAgain said:


> I learned a long time ago that ram was much faster than a hard drive having to spin up to access data, then write to disk. If you work entirely in ram it happens immediately.



This is true, but overkill, and pretty expensive to do for most people. Most rarely need over even 6gb of ram (though personally for me that number is 12gb) and a current generation SSD will provide seemingly almost instant responses, especially with newer sata 3 motherboards.

Upgrading to SSD's is easily the best thing I've done related to computers this year. Gave up some capacity on laptops, but I'm able to boot from off, an even a 5 year laptop in under 30 seconds (that includes the time it takes me to type in the password). Turning on from sleep is practically instant.


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## moldyoldy (Aug 27, 2015)

just in case anyone thinks that because their PC was not (yet) upgraded to Win 10, they dodged the surveillance from Microsoft.

From Chip.de


Briefly: these updates for Win 7 & Win 8.1 for "Diagnostics and Telemetry tracking" by Microsoft may need some attention, if you are concerned: KB3022345, KB3068708,KB3075249 und KB3080149 . 

I am rather happy that I switched to a Linux distribution.


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## InfinitusEquitas (Aug 27, 2015)

moldyoldy said:


> just in case anyone thinks that because their PC was not (yet) upgraded to Win 10, they dodged the surveillance from Microsoft.
> 
> From Chip.de
> 
> ...



That's the thing, if people are updating their Windows 7 and 8 systems, I don't think windows 10 is really that much more intrusive once you take care of the settings available.

The only MAJOR departure from those two versions is the inability to not update, and even more so to choose when to update on the home editions.


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## SemiMan (Aug 27, 2015)

I wonder how many people on here siting issues with Windows tracking O/S usage use Android phones .... and happily hand -- app history, contacts, etc., etc., etc.?


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## moldyoldy (Aug 27, 2015)

SemiMan said:


> I wonder how many people on here siting issues with Windows tracking O/S usage use Android phones .... and happily hand -- app history, contacts, etc., etc., etc.?



+1 include any Apple device on that list as well. Given the desire for 'free apps', the Internet user does pay a price => which is not very visible. 

Caveat: I sort of understand what Google and Apple do with the collected data on their devices, or any of the many free email services. I wonder what Microsoft is doing with the significant expansion of data collection. ?

which is why I do as much as possible offline. & I shut off any cellular data, or turn off WiFi, or pull the Ethernet cable. & I turn off my cable modem, router, and all computers for the night. I leave only GSM active to accept incoming calls, which of course means that the location of the Handy can be triangulated rather easily.


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## PhotonWrangler (Aug 27, 2015)

InfinitusEquitas said:


> The only MAJOR departure from those two versions is the inability to not update, and even more so to choose when to update on the home editions.



I think this is a response to a large number of home users who probably never run updates and thus contribute to the pool of infected computers.


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## NoNotAgain (Aug 27, 2015)

Not only that but they get all of the error reports which I don't send and know your exact configuration and what programs you use and the frequency you use them.

I still like the new task manager. It's actually useful.


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## RoccoOnFire (Aug 27, 2015)

I have been using the Microsoft Windows builds since one of the early releases. I was so anxious to part with Windows 8.1 that I had to check it out. It has been a wild ride. Maybe I should have just run it inside of a virtual machine like I do when I play with Linux. Things have calmed down significantly since the crazy problems plaguing earlier builds. However I have not experienced any hardware damage from even the worst problems from the earlier builds. Also, I have not lost any files from the transition. There were many driver problems along the way that seem resolved now. 

I actually like the platform a lot. That being said it is not completely polished yet. Certain features are not finished and fine tuned. You'll see as you play with it. As far as the privacy war goes, being an insider that went straight out the door as soon as you sign up and they made that pretty clear. Now you can go in and adjust your privacy settings. Before the final release they were greyed out. I think its part of the futuristic plan Microsoft has to integrate every device you own onto the same account interface from your game system, browser, phone, tablet, computer, tv, and cloud. Then integrating Cortana to sync everything and access, though multiple means and input styles, everything you have digitally. Also, you know they have to make that money with your new advertising IDs. For sure its a step over the line dividing convenience and privacy/security but it seems they feel it must be done in the war for the living room and business environments. They want a piece of every pie. Short of legislation protecting us, its going to be a losing battle on our part unless we forsake new technology.

There is a few other things such as my firewall, while still functioning properly, does not seem to like the integration into the system. I'm not sure why, yet. There is still this weird Frankenstein thing going on that was brutal in windows 8. It is to a lesser extent in Windows 10 but just things like the Control Panel and settings menu seem to compete for dominance over the same functions.

I'm still in the insider program and haven't backed off my privacy settings yet, but I will soon. For those who care I am on Evaluation Copy. Build 10525.
My recommendation is to wait at least two months before upgrading.


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## moldyoldy (Aug 28, 2015)

RoccoOnFire, thank you for your inside tester's input!!


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## RoccoOnFire (Aug 28, 2015)

I love giving feedback. Mine may not be the most technical but I give it anyways :shrug:

After I wrote that I upgraded to the new build 10532. I haven't played around with it much but I did read online that it eats chrome 64. I don't really care because I don't use chrome on PCs. It makes me wonder though if it is really a bug or if it more reminiscent of back when they injected that code in an update, like 10ish years ago, that ate netscape code up. If any recall, they did that because it would be cheaper to force people to use their browser by force thereby suffering huge fines, than to spend more money for equivalent results in advertising dollars. I doubt these bugs will make it to the final consumer as I'm still in Guinea Pig status, but I wouldn't be all that surprised either. After all they gotta get you hooked on Microsoft Edge.


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## recDNA (Aug 28, 2015)

Did bing ever hook anybody? They pushed that too. Explorer has sucked for years.


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## InfinitusEquitas (Aug 28, 2015)

At this point, unless Chrome or Firefox get majorly screwed up, microsoft doesn't stand a chance of winning people back for it's rebranded explorer.


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## NoNotAgain (Aug 28, 2015)

FireFox is already screwed up. Every couple of weeks they roll out another updated version that usually requires me to reload all of the extensions/add-ons that I use. I don't need a search field on the tool bar nor a link to discussions, or the save to pocket, whatever that is.

Google is evil so Chrome is a no-go for me. I don't do free email. It's free because they harvest your info and contacts. FU Google.

I remember back when HotBot was the big player in search. They're a shell of their former selves. Bing is OK, Yahoo, I'm still debating.


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## InfinitusEquitas (Aug 28, 2015)

Ehh, I've come to grips with google. They are no more evil than most, and any kind of system of convenience will always be a compromise to privacy.

Personally I generally just don't permit auto updates on anything, and update if/when I choose. Which is why the W10 change to how they do updates bugs me so much I guess. Though I also generally do actually make most updates. I think on W7 I only skipped two updates due to them interfering with validation of my office install.


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## SemiMan (Aug 28, 2015)

I actually believe Microsoft is less evil than Google ... Maybe even a lot less. 

Chrome is brutal on battery. Huge resource hog. IE is actually better and worth a try. FF as stated is starting to shown its design by committee feel.


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## moldyoldy (Aug 28, 2015)

InfinitusEquitas said:


> Ehh, I've come to grips with google. They are no more evil than most, and any kind of system of convenience will always be a compromise to privacy.
> 
> Personally I generally just don't permit auto updates on anything, and update if/when I choose. Which is why the W10 change to how they do updates bugs me so much I guess. Though I also generally do actually make most updates. I think on W7 I only skipped two updates due to them interfering with validation of my office install.



+1

Also, unless there is some urgency, I generally wait with OS updates for a week or so to let MS discover any errors in the KBs - which happens about once a year.

FWIW: Both Apple and Google watch the user of their products rather closely - for somewhat different reasons. With the latest KB updates and Win10, Microsoft appears to have sharply increased it's surveillance of the user, possibly beyond what Google and Apple are doing. It is still not clear what the end purpose is. Yahoo has changed under the new CEO - not sure how yet.

I very strongly disagree with the trend to unify and sync all activities by any user of any device from that manufacturer. This violates fundamental principles of security! Compartmentalization is of primary importance for security.


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## Mr Floppy (Aug 28, 2015)

moldyoldy said:


> FWIW: Both Apple and Google watch the user of their products rather closely - for somewhat different reasons.



Best differentiating analogy I heard is that Apple tries to sell a product to you and google tries to sell you to a product. 

MS, I think they are going for the assimilation to the Borg.


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## moldyoldy (Aug 31, 2015)

Mr Floppy said:


> Best differentiating analogy I heard is that Apple tries to sell a product to you and google tries to sell you to a product.
> 
> MS, I think they are going for the assimilation to the Borg.




Sign of the times: Full-page ad by VMWare in today’s WSJ, Page A5: 
 One Cloud
 Any Application
 Any Device

 Whether Google Drive or Microsoft OneDrive or VMWare, Amazon, HP, or any of the Cloud providers, et.al., ‘Cloud Computing’ is here to stay. Satya Nadella of Microsoft is pushing hard to bring Microsoft in to the Internet age, meaning to make money from Internet-based computing (eg:Office 365) & data. The historical ‘install it locally’ applications & associated profits are fading. But, even if installed locally and not in the 'Cloud', the $$ associated with applications are ignorable. Where does the data reside? The comms network for larger server centers is impressive. Care and feeding + backup of data storage servers occupies far more personnel and $$ than application administration. Security concerns are a major concern. Too many large companies have been hacked. 

With that background, the surveillance activities of Win 10 seem all the more anachronistic. Windows 10 seems to be trying to one-up Apple and Google with it’s surveillance of users of personal computing. MS’s surveillance, including the inability to actually shut off data flow to MS servers even though settings in Win 10 are supposedly set to stop data transmission back to MS, is still being explored. The reasons for the extent of the surveillance remain obscure. 

I especially appreciate Mr Floppy & his post #168 above!


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## moldyoldy (Aug 31, 2015)

FWIW, even if the user has upgraded to Win 10, MS offers the option of downgrading to Win 7 or Win 8.1 - but only for 30 days after installation of Win 10. Then that option disappears.

Regrets for the German link. I am sure that the info can be found in Englisch on the Internet.


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## Lebkuecher (Sep 1, 2015)

MS delivered a nice little surprise today. Due to some audio issues after the upgrade I decided to downgrade back to Windows 7 in a couple of days before the 30 day window expired. I have a four year old Dell XPS 501x laptop and when I upgraded to Windows 10 the Realtek audio drivers wouldn’t work properly causing the audio to become flat and I also lost all the MaxxAudio controls. Over the last couple of weeks I’ve reinstalled the Realtek audio driver several times as well as tried some other things but nothing seemed to work so I decided I would rather have the audio functionality and quality sound over the new features of Windows 10. Today MS forced yet another system update and fortunately after the update the audio controls reappeared and the sound is just as good as before the upgrade. Now I am rethinking my decision to downgrade.


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## RoccoOnFire (Sep 1, 2015)

It is interesting that you were experiencing the audio driver failure. I only say this because I experienced it as well. However, when it happened to me it was in the final build before consumer release. I'm talking running 'final code' a week before release. They threw a patch out and it was resolved a few days before release. I also was in a frenzy reloading drivers and checking if something tripped my AVS/Firewall/Malware. I was pot committed and just waited out the storm, it worked out.

I am very anti-cloud. I don't use cloud drives they are just too juicy of targets for those who wish to use their powers for bad. Data centers are for sure the big profit game in tech town. My fathers company builds some products they use to regulate power/surge and temperature to these computers and MS has been the recent customer buying the product up. It for sure signifies that they are stepping up their competition in a big way on multiple fronts. If MS wasn't so well capitalized and have such large reserves of cash they would have been sunk by now. 

I was definitely of the opinion that Microsoft was the least worst offender in terms of privacy invasion in the game of major players. As stated, it seems now they are trying to step up their game to both Apple and Google.


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## Mr Floppy (Sep 1, 2015)

RoccoOnFire said:


> I am very anti-cloud. I don't use cloud drives they are just too juicy of targets for those who wish to use their powers for bad.



I love cloud computing!! Well, when I was still employed. It isn't all about your cloud drives. Or even having that information hacked. The privacy issues don't go down to the level of an actual document you may have uploaded some where. It is about trying to link you to your actions. Every one does it from the government to small Web start ups. I'm sure that the amount of data in Amazon redshift is mostly habits of people out there.


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## RoccoOnFire (Sep 1, 2015)

Only half of my concern arises from hacks and misuse of my actual documents. Although, it is a very serious concern. Over the past two years how many credit/debit cards I have had reissued and passwords I have been forced to change I couldn't count on two hands. I do however think cloud computing is a great for objectives that are very resource intensive and otherwise would take far greater amounts of time and energy to complete. 

As you say, the linking of behaviors is the other concern. This however is a much more difficult problem to address and is rampant across the internet. Even shrouding a identity through proxy servers won't help in the long run. My actions are monitored whether I use the cloud or not. I try to diversify my usage of companies across different email servers, search engines, operating systems, browsers, etc.. While this may seem counter productive because more companies gain a glimpse of me it also gives them all a smaller picture and not a complete profile of my actions. Even after these steps though there are, completely unaffiliated with anything I do, companies monitoring my web traffic. The government is a battle I have already written off. :tinfoil:

The companies MoldyOldy listed have been doing this for a good long time. Microsoft is definitely testing the waters with the advertising ID for each consumer. I don't like it but at least they are being upfront about that aspect of it. I'm sure there are dozens more subtle monitoring codes throughout the system that will cause uproars as each is uncovered as is already happening. I now get targeted ads on website banners from a small university I attended on the other side of the country. We are products being packaged to be sold to marketing departments so they can try and sell us something. The packager profits, the marketer/company profits(maybe), and we ultimately spent the money in one way or another to pay them both so they can continue the obtrusive cycle.


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## more_vampires (Sep 1, 2015)

RoccoOnFire said:


> Microsoft is definitely testing the waters with the advertising ID for each consumer.


Nothing new. Intel did this with unique processor ID, accessible across the net. MAC addresses of network adapters are "supposed" to be unique and this predates the Intel incursion.


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## NoNotAgain (Sep 1, 2015)

more_vampires said:


> Nothing new. Intel did this with unique processor ID, accessible across the net. MAC addresses of network adapters are "supposed" to be unique and this predates the Intel incursion.


 
Yep. Walk into any Target store and they bang your MAC address. They then follow you around the store seeing where you go and how long you're there. http://lifehacker.com/how-retail-st...q4mjoww.0&utm_referrer=https://www.google.com


Prettty bad that you now need a shielded bag for both your credit cards and cell phone.


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## more_vampires (Sep 1, 2015)

NoNotAgain said:


> Yep. Walk into any Target store and they bang your MAC address. They then follow you around the store seeing where you go and how long you're there. http://lifehacker.com/how-retail-st...q4mjoww.0&utm_referrer=https://www.google.com
> Prettty bad that you now need a shielded bag for both your credit cards and cell phone.


Grrr, this annoys me.

Back when I was "active," my pride and joy was a laptop with a user-programmable MAC for "compatibility purposes." I also had a couple NICs with this capability.

The fun begins when you set your MAC to be the same as the snooping system.  Man-on-the-inside, anyone? 

...when Target targets Target with their targeted snooping...


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## NoNotAgain (Sep 4, 2015)

Firefox has once again rolled out another update. Version 40.3 is the latest.

Might have to take a look at Safari again as I haven't visited that browser in a while.

MS Edge, the renamed Internet Explorer is a turd


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## ven (Sep 4, 2015)

NoNotAgain said:


> MS Edge, the renamed Internet Explorer is a turd




straight to the point , that made me :laughing: !!! 

And you can't polish a turd!!!! 

I am back on 7, no issues and limiting my updates to what I decide. I am sure it's 12 months to get it for free on the 10 , might look into it again at a later date when niggles and glitches are not in abundance . Certain aspects I do miss, others not so. 

Will play it month by month I think


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## dc38 (Sep 4, 2015)

ven said:


> straight to the point , that made me :laughing: !!!
> 
> And you can't polish a turd!!!!



Circumstantially, mythbusters has proven that you can indeed polish a turd.


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## ven (Sep 4, 2015)

dc38 said:


> Circumstantially, mythbusters has proven that you can indeed polish a turd.



:laughing: i am sure i remember that one,can even buy turd polish on ebay...........probably no different for most of the stuff on there :laughing:

I look forward to YOUR video demonstrating it


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## moldyoldy (Sep 4, 2015)

Ref Browsers: My brother uses nearly all of the common browsers because of varying compatibility with sites that he visits: Firefox, Chrome, Opera, IE11, maybe Safari in there somewhere. For my usage, I also observe odd incompatibilities and use primarily the first 3 and set all of them to delete history, if I am not already in an 'incognito' or 'private' mode as well as being inside of a Sandbox (Sandboxie). 

However, MS has given plenty of warning that browsers are not the future: Apps with a designated purpose are => similar to apps as found for Android and iOS. A closer look at how my ChromeOS operates already shows that future by how it uses the Chrome browser for relatively unconventional activities. and per Google, many Android apps are supposed to be ported to the ChromeOS. I do not have any Apple device anymore, but I hear similar stories about comparable operations between an iPhone and iPad and Safari.

As for MAC ID usage: an acquaintance lives near the Washington Beltway (Beltway Bandit). per his comments, there is a roadway nearby that measures the average speed of a vehicle based on any MAC IDs picked up from that vehicle at two different points. If the vehicle speed is too fast, the traffic lights ahead go on red longer. Therefore he keeps his WiFi on his iPAD and iPhone OFF unless being used! For that matter, many of the traffic monitoring businesses use the MAC ID from passing cars to determine traffic speeds, not just cameras and road surface sensors. Even a casual glance at any news-media traffic monitoring site or any Maps program (eg:Google Maps) with the traffic flow enabled should notice the surprising coverage they offer. There are simply not that many sensors in the road surfaces or cameras in all of the locations to give the detailed flow info. All of the drivers are not using WAZE or Google Maps with their GPS enabled. Near Nashville, I observed nearly minute-by-minute changes in the Google-recommended route that I should take to bypass the traffic jams going past downtown Nashville.

Back to the basics: We all carry around portable radios in our pockets. Turn off any transmissions not needed! The benefit is prolonged run-time on batteries.

Back to the original topic: No one in my extended family is switching to Win 10 any time soon, over 18 people. The more computer astute of them, typically the grown sons, have stated that they will wait to see what MS kicks out in the first Service Pack release, or whatever/however MS designates it..


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## more_vampires (Sep 4, 2015)

dc38 said:


> Circumstantially, mythbusters has proven that you can indeed polish a turd.


I missed that episode. They actually made Windows 95 secure?1??!?!


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## InfinitusEquitas (Sep 4, 2015)

Have been using W10 across four computers for a little while now. Only had issues with one so far, with audio drivers. Fortunately there is an enthusiast who put out a fixed driver that restored more than basic functionality. (I'm not quite an audiophile, but do prefer to use dedicated soundcards.)


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## recDNA (Sep 4, 2015)

Anybody try updating an Alienware computer? The software is unique so I suspect there could be issues.


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## NoNotAgain (Sep 4, 2015)

moldyoldy said:


> As for MAC ID usage: an acquaintance lives near the Washington Beltway (Beltway Bandit). per his comments, there is a roadway nearby that measures the average speed of a vehicle based on any MAC IDs picked up from that vehicle at two different points. If the vehicle speed is too fast, the traffic lights ahead go on red longer. Therefore he keeps his WiFi on his iPAD and iPhone OFF unless being used! For that matter, many of the traffic monitoring businesses use the MAC ID from passing cars to determine traffic speeds, not just cameras and road surface sensors. Even a casual glance at any news-media traffic monitoring site or any Maps program (eg:Google Maps) with the traffic flow enabled should notice the surprising coverage they offer. There are simply not that many sensors in the road surfaces or cameras in all of the locations to give the detailed flow info. All of the drivers are not using WAZE or Google Maps with their GPS enabled. Near Nashville, I observed nearly minute-by-minute changes in the Google-recommended route that I should take to bypass the traffic jams going past downtown Nashville.
> .



Traffic monitoring companies aren't using MAC addresses. They use the hand-off data from cell phone tower to tower. The MAC address is a rather low powered devise that only broadcasts when pinged. Your phone supplies the MEID number for the transfer from tower to tower.


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## moldyoldy (Sep 4, 2015)

Thanks NoNotAgain. I had forgotten about the MEID (CDMA) and IMEI (GSM) numbers & cell tower handoffs. 

However my acquaintance engineer works for a traffic management company which does use MAC ids. He did not mention what proportion of their traffic flow info is retrieved from which system - company proprietary info. He identified one other company that he recalled used MAC ids in their info sources.


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## dc38 (Sep 9, 2015)

Ladies and gents...copypaste
http://youtu.be/yiJ9fy1qSFI


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## sidecross (Sep 9, 2015)

Stay away from Windows 10 unless you enjoy solving problems!


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## moldyoldy (Sep 14, 2015)

Microsoft is not the only company that indulges in surreptitious surveillance. How about Washington State? perhaps a laudable effort, but YMMV!


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## PhotonWrangler (Sep 14, 2015)

I used my PD35 to look for another light tonight. Couldn't find it.

Of course it was a black light, so maybe they cancelled each other out.

**Edit**

I just realized that I posted this in the wrong thread. Mods, please feel free to move this to this thread.


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## markr6 (Nov 12, 2015)

I'm still using 7, not updating to 10 yet. Can't decide.

Looks like there's a big update though:

http://money.cnn.com/2015/11/12/technology/microsoft-windows-10-update/index.html


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## more_vampires (Nov 12, 2015)

markr6 said:


> I'm still using 7, not updating to 10 yet. Can't decide.
> 
> Looks like there's a big update though:
> 
> http://money.cnn.com/2015/11/12/technology/microsoft-windows-10-update/index.html





> For example, after the update, IT managers will get control over how their Windows 10 devices get updated within their organization.



Lol! The year 1999 called and they want their Windows NT back!  Oh lol! Top secret: Microsoft is secretly installing Windows NT under the hood of Windows 10!


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## Speedfreakz (Nov 12, 2015)

I'm not happy that you can not control windows 10 updates. I'm also worried about some older hardware not working


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## sidecross (Nov 12, 2015)

I installed Windows 10 and wish I never did! It is nothing but a problem for me and it took away much more than could give. Read up from different sources be fore making this change.


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## PhotonWrangler (Nov 12, 2015)

If you don't like WIndows 10, you can roll your computer back to Win 7 or 8 but you have to do it within 30 days of upgrading to 10.


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## Kestrel (Nov 12, 2015)

Speedfreakz said:


> I'm not happy that you can not control windows 10 updates. [...]


If you're talking about from prior versions of Windows, I'm trying this product out tonight and will report back:

http://blog.ultimateoutsider.com/2015/08/using-gwx-stopper-to-permanently-remove.html

One aspect of the above is that since Windows 7 & 8 can secretly download the (multi-GB) Win 10 installation files without any approvals, the above freeware not only notifies me at what point of the process this is in but gives me the option of eliminating what has been downloaded so far.


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## Camo5 (Nov 12, 2015)

Had 8.1, went to 10, then back to 8.1. Windows 10 uses a bing-only cortana, compatibility is an issue, and touchscreens will feel right at home. Steer clear on regular computers.


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## Borad (Nov 12, 2015)

My "notification to upgrade could come as soon as a few days or weeks" is what the "Get Windows 10" icon keeps telling me. No details about what component is causing the problem. I want the upgrade because of a few random annoyances that I'm hoping will be fixed but I'm not optimistic it will come or that I'll like it.


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## mcbrat (Nov 13, 2015)

Did the upgrade on a Dell Laptop that was running 7 and a HP laptop that was running 8. not using the new browser, as it had some issues with my favorites. otherwise, everything else is running okay.

My "main" machine though is still an old custom built one running XP  just keeps on a chugging, and is still faster than the laptops...

don't think it will work on my Toshiba Libretto though  still running 98SE on it


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## MidnightDistortions (Nov 14, 2015)

Lebkuecher said:


> So I have this little Windows icon in my system tray inviting me to reserve my free Windows 10 upgrade and all I have to do is agree to reserve it and someday in the near future I will be notified that the upgrade has downloaded and is ready to be installed. After giving the idea a little thought I decided to go ahead and agree to the upgrade but I have to say I am more than a little nervous. I have a four year old Dell laptop that easily meets the listed requirements but the laptop works great so I’m not sure what the real upside is but more importantly I have no idea what the possible downside may be. My concern is after the upgrade will everything work or will I have to spend the next two weeks tinkering around troubleshooting oddities that will basically drive me crazy. Dell’s website has a section dedicated to Windows 10 upgrades and when I checked my laptop is listed as not tested so I’m guessing there will be no support if I upgrade.
> 
> I know I’m not the only person wondering if I should upgrade so I thought it might be a good idea to have a thread dedicated to Windows 10 upgrade experiences. Are you going to upgrade and if so why or why not? If you already upgraded what was your experience like?




Nope, sticking with Windows 7 and Linux :twothumbs


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## sidecross (Nov 14, 2015)

MidnightDistortions said:


> Nope, sticking with Windows 7 and Linux :twothumbs


This is a smart and one I wish I had made.


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## markr6 (Nov 25, 2015)

I just got a new computer and it has Windows 10 on it. It's dirty. I don't like it.

But I'll figure it out as usual. I complain every time there's a decent change.


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## Borad (Nov 25, 2015)

I finally got the upgrade a couple of days ago. I immediately found a bug. File Explorer didn't find a file when I searched for the exact file name, even when I was looking right at the file in the detailed view. One of the things I was hoping would be fixed is Internet Explorer's search not finding stuff on the webpage being viewed, and here I found something just as bad. With the Edge browser, I finally decided to try it despite there apparently being no favorite bar, and I started logging into Ebay, and a full page ad popped up somehow. That scared me away from Edge. The tiles in the start menu (if that's what it's called) are useless to me, but at least I figured out how to delete some apps that seemed to be undeletable. I just had to wait like 20 seconds for them to be deleted before closing the start menu. I didn't notice any "busy" graphic but I waited anyway and it worked. The Edge browser and Movies & TV seem undeletable though. The transparent antivirus software and updates are probably good in general, but not so much for me. The scrollbar for Favorites is something I've been wanting, but that's in IE and maybe I could have had that without Windows 10. I'm afraid of the Mail app for now because I don't want mail synced with my Windows Phone when I plug it in, and I don't want it on the cloud. I'll probably take a chance and see how it works at some point after I get Windows Phone 10. I used to do distributed computing for World Community Grid, but Windows 10 takes up too much CPU and the default WCG settings stop the client. I wasn't willing to change the settings as much as would be needed so I stopped the distributed computing. I don't know what keeps Windows 10 so busy, but I don't really trust it. I'm just hoping it's better in ways I haven't noticed.


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## NoNotAgain (Nov 25, 2015)

Borad said:


> I finally got the upgrade a couple of days ago. I immediately found a bug. File Explorer didn't find a file when I searched for the exact file name, even when I was looking right at the file in the detailed view. One of the things I was hoping would be fixed is Internet Explorer's search not finding stuff on the webpage being viewed, and here I found something just as bad. With the Edge browser, I finally decided to try it despite there apparently being no favorite bar, and I started logging into Ebay, and a full page ad popped up somehow. That scared me away from Edge. The tiles in the start menu (if that's what it's called) are useless to me, but at least I figured out how to delete some apps that seemed to be undeletable. I just had to wait like 20 seconds for them to be deleted before closing the start menu. I didn't notice any "busy" graphic but I waited anyway and it worked. The Edge browser and Movies & TV seem undeletable though. The transparent antivirus software and updates are probably good in general, but not so much for me. The scrollbar for Favorites is something I've been wanting, but that's in IE and maybe I could have had that without Windows 10. I'm afraid of the Mail app for now because I don't want mail synced with my Windows Phone when I plug it in, and I don't want it on the cloud. I'll probably take a chance and see how it works at some point after I get Windows Phone 10. I used to do distributed computing for World Community Grid, but Windows 10 takes up too much CPU and the default WCG settings stop the client. I wasn't willing to change the settings as much as would be needed so I stopped the distributed computing. I don't know what keeps Windows 10 so busy, but I don't really trust it. I'm just hoping it's better in ways I haven't noticed.


 Sorry to hear you're having problems.

I was an early adapter of 10 on a Dell Precision M6400 laptop. The machine has 8 gb of ram and a Core Duo 2.8GHZ processor. My M6500 is still running 7 Ultimate and will for the foreseeable future.

From the time I push the start button until I have access is less than 20 seconds. With 5 windows of Firefox open, the system uses 1.8 gb of memory. It does not use much of the processor. I pared out most of the panes as I don't care about what they were pushing. Search is a hit or miss. Don't use IE or whatever new name they come up with. Also disabled One Drive. I'll use my own cloud service if I need one.

The only issues I'm having is the sporadic stopping of the sound controls and I hate the updating in the background BS. 

Overall. MicroSlop hit a 7 out of 10 in this round. I'd still rather have Windows 7 Ultimate as I prefer the file structure. I've got two workstations that are hardwired for my machine shop controls and will be pulling one down, Ghosting one of the drives and installing 10 on it. If it doesn't work, I'll blow it out and install the old drive and move on. It's not like I need support at this point in time.


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## bykfixer (Nov 25, 2015)

I had 95 as long as the computer held up. 

Went to XP for a while and tried the 7 beta. Made my photograph editing so much faster I bought a gamer laptop with 7 and aint looked back.

At some point when that one fails I'll do what I gotta do.
But I still use a 13" Sony with XP at times.


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## PhotonWrangler (Nov 25, 2015)

I think this statement copied from the Windows 10 EULA bears repeating - 



> We will access, disclose and preserve personal data, including your content (such as the content of your emails, other private communications or files in private folders), when we have a good faith belief that doing so is necessary.



The mere fact that it's possible means that it's likely to get abused. If Microsoft ever changes their minds on this arrogant and Orwellian statement, I might consider upgrading to 10. Otherwise I'll stay on 7 until it's no longer supported and then move to Linux or MAC.


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## markr6 (Nov 25, 2015)

PhotonWrangler said:


> I think this statement copied from the Windows 10 EULA bears repeating -
> 
> 
> 
> The mere fact that it's possible means that it's likely to get abused. If Microsoft ever changes their minds on this arrogant and Orwellian statement, I might consider upgrading to 10. Otherwise I'll stay on 7 until it's no longer supported and then move to Linux or MAC.



I don't mind it so much. There are a TON of setting you can turn off so you're not sending stuff to MS. I know that doesn't block 100% but beyond that, I really don't have anything to hide. No I don't like the principle of them snooping around but I don't think that's whats going on. If they want to look out for red flags to prevent kiddie porn sickos or prevent another twin towers incident, have at it.


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## recDNA (Nov 28, 2015)

markr6 said:


> I just got a new computer and it has Windows 10 on it. It's dirty. I don't like it.
> 
> But I'll figure it out as usual. I complain every time there's a decent change.


Please share how you "cleanse" to make more usable as you use it more.


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## Lumeron (Nov 28, 2015)

Windows 10 does an awful lot of spying on you for Microsoft. Scan the Internet for Windows 10 phone home


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## markr6 (Nov 28, 2015)

recDNA said:


> Please share how you "cleanse" to make more usable as you use it more.



I pretty much turn off all the reporting stuff I could find by clicking something like custom settings on the first boot. The stuff like "send xxx to Microsoft to help improve..." whatever. There are a lot of how-tos on the web though.

I like this one: http://www.pcworld.com/article/2971...our-privacy-in-windows-10-piece-by-piece.html

Again, I know I'm not staying 100% private but I'm limiting the junk sent to MS so my system is not bogged down. But there is no secure network. The only way to have privacy on your computer is not to connect to the internet.


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## NoNotAgain (Nov 28, 2015)

markr6 said:


> I pretty much turn off all the reporting stuff I could find by clicking something like custom settings on the first boot.
> 
> Again, I know I'm not staying 100% private but I'm limiting the junk sent to MS so my system is not bogged down. But there is no secure network. The only way to have privacy on your computer is not to connect to the internet.



The NSA folks have found a way to use the electrical frequency that your computer uses and generates to spy on you, so unless you're powered via battery or generator you're still at risk. 
The huge data center in Utah is proof that they're collecting more than phone meta data. And there's more than one data center. 

The data centers are easy to find though, the largest user of water and electricity are the culprits.


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## markr6 (Nov 28, 2015)

NoNotAgain said:


> The NSA folks have found a way to use the electrical frequency that your computer uses and generates to spy on you, so unless you're powered via battery or generator you're still at risk.
> The huge data center in Utah is proof that they're collecting more than phone meta data. And there's more than one data center.
> 
> The data centers are easy to find though, the largest user of water and electricity are the culprits.



Fine by me. I'm not doing anything to cause them to kick in my door and arrest me. Even if they did, whatever. Eventually they'll get the bad guys. For now, I'm fine just not sending so much junk to MS to slow down my computer/bandwidth.


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## HarryN (Dec 7, 2015)

It is hard for me to believe, but MS has managed to push me away. I have used DOS 1 - 12, multiple versions of win, including many which are verbally maligned. Currently I am using win 7 pro on one laptop, xp on another (to support CardScan - business card scanning software / scanner). I also use a win 8 phone - 1520, which is actually a very decent phone.

My wife and one daughter run Mac - have to say - there is no joy there for me at all. File management, at least in default modes, is a nightmare. One daughter is on Win 8 - again, I tried it and didn't really like it.

As far as Win 10, I really tried to get on board, but just could not. As a result, I am making the transition to Linux Mint. Attempting to use the Debian version rather than the ubuntu version, but it is slightly harder to install. I hope to be 90% transitioned by the end of the year.

LibreOffice - I already use LibreOffice and have for some time. Just upgraded recently, and really there is nothing I need from PPT that I cannot do in LibreOffice, including creating office file formats. It is funny that what really pushed me away from office was not the price, but that ridiculous ribbon interface starting in office 2007. Companies are wasting a ton of money using ms office vs LibreOffice.

There is no way I would use Chrome or Android or Apple - pure spyware. It is bad enough to be scrutinized by MS and Country level spies, but another company for no reason at all - no way.

Firefox - still learning to use it, not particularly impressed, but it works ok.

Business Card Scanner - Really wish I could find a business card scanner setup that works under Win 7 or Linux as well as CardSCan did under XP. For all of the programs I see on Linux for doing A/V, photoshopping, and other wonders of the world, there seem to be some real holes for traveling business man user types.

Netflix - It is too bad that Netflix will not run under Linux Mint - or has someone found a work around that does not involve wine?

Good luck with your transitions.


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## Borad (Dec 7, 2015)

It's not playing nice with Ebay or this forum on IE 11. I thought I could turn off script error and script debugging notifications to prevent this problem but I see they're already off. I tried logging out and logging in with cookies cleared, I tried clearing temporary files, powering down, and same problem. I have other things to try though. I'll probably end up switching to the Edge browser.


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## GLHunter (Dec 27, 2015)

Yes, I finally got tired of the annoying W10 OS pop-up ad that kept appearing on my desktop, so I downloaded it for free yesterday. But I was perfectly satisfied with W7, and see very little improvement if any with W10.


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## Cyclops942 (Dec 28, 2015)

I upgraded from Windows 8.1 on an HP Stream 11" notebook, and I have to say that this was the most painless Windows upgrade I have ever done (and I've been upgrading Windows since version 3, on FAR more computers than I care to count, plus a few other devices). Even with the limited memory and disk capacity of this notebook, it was simple and (relatively) quick. Win 10 has crashed less often than Win 8.1 did, so I have to say that I'm content with the upgrade, and will likely just let Win10 delete its older sibling silently and automatically at the end of the 30-day grace period.


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## sidecross (Dec 28, 2015)

Cyclops942 said:


> I upgraded from Windows 8.1 on an HP Stream 11" notebook, and I have to say that this was the most painless Windows upgrade I have ever done (and I've been upgrading Windows since version 3, on FAR more computers than I care to count, plus a few other devices). Even with the limited memory and disk capacity of this notebook, it was simple and (relatively) quick. Win 10 has crashed less often than Win 8.1 did, so I have to say that I'm content with the upgrade, and will likely just let Win10 delete its older sibling silently and automatically at the end of the 30-day grace period.


Just check all your 'Plug-ins' and other devices such as printers work with Window 10 before the end of 30 days.


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## recDNA (Dec 29, 2015)

I tried too. First Microsoft gave my personal info to Skype. I never had a skype account and as soon as the w10 installation was over I got emails confirming my new skype account (that I don't want) and it has info it got from my Microsoft account.

I really, REALLY do not like Microsoft sharing my private info with some other company. Not just my email addy but name and other things only Microsoft knows.

Next I don't like that it created a mail app identity on its own. I use my gmail addy as Microsoft id. It put this id in the mail app but it cannot sync because it won't let me change the settings to a gmail account. You can create another gmail account but cannot get rid of the one microsoft creates for you. Of course you can delete the mail app or just ignore it but it is an annoying bug.

I'm back on 8.1


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## PhotonWrangler (Dec 29, 2015)

Microsoft owns Skype now, which is why this happened. They purchased the company in 2011.


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## sidecross (Dec 29, 2015)

recDNA said:


> I tried too. First Microsoft gave my personal info to Skype. I never had a skype account and as soon as the w10 installation was over I got emails confirming my new skype account (that I don't want) and it has info it got from my Microsoft account.
> 
> I really, REALLY do not like Microsoft sharing my private info with some other company. Not just my email addy but name and other things only Microsoft knows.
> 
> ...




https://theintercept.com/2015/12/28...r-microsoft-probably-has-your-encryption-key/


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## davesc (Dec 29, 2015)

It's an interesting bunch of people here. And I thought I was one of a few. I upgraded to 10 from 7 when it first came out. I have three computers running 7 and thought would give one a try with Win 10. Right away, I had problems with some of the drivers. I did not like the layout and spent some time learning to change things around. My browser had some problems, also. Background colors, etc. I hate Edge. After awhile, I threw up my hands and said, "It's not worth it". 

I really do like Win 7 and am efficient and comfortable with it. I rolled the upgraded computer back to 7. I did not like what I saw using 10. If I wanted my computer to look like a smart phone, I would just use a smart phone. To me a program is a program and not an app.

Win 7 will be supported until 2020. By then, my computers will be old and junk. And I will go to Apple.


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## jabe1 (Dec 29, 2015)

I have been using 7pro for a few years now. Upgraded to it from 2000 pro, which I loved. Very configurable.

I will avoid win10 for as long as I hear that it "phones home". Google and Amazon already are pretty knowledgeable regarding my habits, I don't want another one too.

Haven't used internet exploder in a decade and a half, and have been using Libre since it first came out as Open Office.

I find it preferable to use programs from the smaller companies.


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## sidecross (Dec 29, 2015)

It is one reason Microsoft made Windows 10 free; they felt they would make up more revenue selling the information Window 10 collects of the user then by selling Windows 10.

There is no free lunch.

I am now more careful about what I write on any computer connected to the internet.


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## recDNA (Dec 30, 2015)

sidecross said:


> It is one reason Microsoft made Windows 10 free; they felt they would make up more revenue selling the information Window 10 collects of the user then by selling Windows 10.
> 
> There is no free lunch.
> 
> I am now more careful about what I write on any computer connected to the internet.


Is there any way to use the computer WITHOUT logging in to my windows microsoft account in Windows 10?


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## Kestrel (Dec 30, 2015)

If anybody wants to 'protect' their Windows system from an automatic Win10 "upgrade", I have been using *GWX* for the past ~6 weeks or so and it seems to work quite well.
http://ultimateoutsider.com/downloads/



Kestrel said:


> [...] http://blog.ultimateoutsider.com/2015/08/using-gwx-stopper-to-permanently-remove.html
> 
> One aspect of the above is that since Windows 7 & 8 can secretly download the (multi-GB) Win 10 installation files without any approvals, the above freeware not only notifies me at what point of the process this is in but gives me the option of eliminating what has been downloaded so far.


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## InfinitusEquitas (Dec 30, 2015)

You can just use a local account login. You don't need to create a microsoft account if you don't want to. There is also a third party program that disables windows tracking (in addition to the settings you can access yourself in windows, which are frankly convoluted, and I wouldn't expect a basic user to go into).

There have been some annoyances with windows 10, but for the most part I'm fairly happy with it. The latest was the fact that an update that changed settings requiring a sign in on startup, or on wakeup from sleep. The thing is, I don't need that on my personal pc, that stays at home. In order to get rid of the sign on, had to create a password, only then I could disable the setting. That was quite stupid.

Aside from that, had some minor issues with games, and drivers, but have been able to resolve those very quickly. Only exception to this was with drivers for my soundcard, and that took some work, but surprisingly windows did release an update for those drivers as well.

MS is interested to migrating everyone to W10, because it will be their last OS. In the future we'll have service pack updates, and I'm sure paid addons, as well as subscription based options. It's also worth noting, that if you're sticking with windows 7 or 8, and you have installed all the updates MS put out... well, you installed all the tracking too.


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## Borad (Dec 30, 2015)

It will be interesting to see what comes after this "last" Windows OS. Because I don't believe it will be the last. There's too much very different stuff that will happen with computers in the next 20+ years and Microsoft won't waste the opportunity to show that their next version of Windows is something special. There's good reason that food packaging changes now and then with no change to the product, as do product names.


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## sidecross (Dec 30, 2015)

Borad said:


> It will be interesting to see what comes after this "last" Windows OS. Because I don't believe it will be the last. There's too much very different stuff that will happen with computers in the next 20+ years and Microsoft won't waste the opportunity to show that their next version of Windows is something special. There's good reason that food packaging changes now and then with no change to the product, as do product names.


There will be changes, but they will be like Windows 10 in that they will be probably be in the form of up dates to be downloaded after the usual box to check that 'you agree'. 

Our personal computer for most people will just be a terminal with most of the content be stored and sent from a 'Cloud'. Government will soon have control of encryption via a back door key.

In the name of 'National Security' most nations, if not all, will have access to data stored on mainframe computers.


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## recDNA (Dec 30, 2015)

InfinitusEquitas said:


> You can just use a local account login. You don't need to create a microsoft account if you don't want to. There is also a third party program that disables windows tracking (in addition to the settings you can access yourself in windows, which are frankly convoluted, and I wouldn't expect a basic user to go into).
> 
> There have been some annoyances with windows 10, but for the most part I'm fairly happy with it. The latest was the fact that an update that changed settings requiring a sign in on startup, or on wakeup from sleep. The thing is, I don't need that on my personal pc, that stays at home. In order to get rid of the sign on, had to create a password, only then I could disable the setting. That was quite stupid.
> 
> ...


Could you tell me how to do a local account log in?

Never mind. I found directions but I would lose desktop settings shortcuts and some files might not open without signing in? NG


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## Borad (Jan 1, 2016)

My time to go back to Windows 7 expired. I was going to do it today.


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## PhotonWrangler (Jan 1, 2016)

Did it expire yesterday? If so, I would contact Microsoft. It seems that they should make allowances for a one day grace period, although that's' just my opinion.


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## Borad (Jan 1, 2016)

Probably earlier. The last straw was my printer not working with my re-manufactured ink cartridges, but I'm not sure I'd be able to revert to a version of printer software that worked like it used to. I get a notification that the color cartridge is out of ink, and it probably is, but when I used HP cartridges with Windows 7, I was able to print with no color ink left.


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## Stream (Jan 5, 2016)

HarryN said:


> Netflix - It is too bad that Netflix will not run under Linux Mint - or has someone found a work around that does not involve wine?



You can watch Netflix in Chrome. If you don't like Chrome (who does?), then I believe you can watch it in Chromium if you install chromium-widevine. Just do a repository search for it. I think there's also something you can install for Firefox, but I forgot what it's called.


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## InfinitusEquitas (Jan 5, 2016)

recDNA said:


> Could you tell me how to do a local account log in?
> 
> Never mind. I found directions but I would lose desktop settings shortcuts and some files might not open without signing in? NG



That hasn't been my experience. I mean I already had a local account setup initially, right on install (and I did a clean install after the upgrade - which eliminated a TON of issues btw). After updates 1-2 weeks back all of a sudden I would end up on the sign in screen, even though I didn't have a password setup. Just need to click ok, but I'm a pretty impatient person with technology. For me the setting to bypass the screens was grayed out until after I put in a password.

As far as I know, you can't really have an install of windows 10 WITHOUT somekind of local account - if you named your pc, you already had one. Or even if you didn't one would still be assigned. So not sure why any setting would be lost, or files won't open.

Largest annoyance left for me, error messages when I open games, which I just have to ignore.


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## recDNA (Jan 6, 2016)

InfinitusEquitas said:


> That hasn't been my experience. I mean I already had a local account setup initially, right on install (and I did a clean install after the upgrade - which eliminated a TON of issues btw). After updates 1-2 weeks back all of a sudden I would end up on the sign in screen, even though I didn't have a password setup. Just need to click ok, but I'm a pretty impatient person with technology. For me the setting to bypass the screens was grayed out until after I put in a password.
> 
> As far as I know, you can't really have an install of windows 10 WITHOUT somekind of local account - if you named your pc, you already had one. Or even if you didn't one would still be assigned. So not sure why any setting would be lost, or files won't open.
> 
> Largest annoyance left for me, error messages when I open games, which I just have to ignore.


My "local account" is my Microsoft account. I wanted to divorce myself from microsoft however I do like the mail app so that kind of kills the local account idea. My best bet is to stick to 8.1 but the incessant remjnders drive me crazy. There are downloads to get rid of it but I have learned to never trust freeware no matter how good the reviews are.


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## bykfixer (Jan 6, 2016)

Nope!

Sticking with 7.


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## Cyclops942 (Jan 10, 2016)

sidecross said:


> Just check all your 'Plug-ins' and other devices such as printers work with Window 10 before the end of 30 days.


Everything works the same as it did under Windows 8.1... this is a recently-acquired netbook that was never intended to have much to do other than surf the web, print a few things, and play a few light games, so my expectations have always been pretty low. The main reason for upgrading to Win10 was the near-constant BSODs (Blue Screens Of Death) under Win8.1, and that seems to be okay now (well... so long as I don't tax the wimpy, unable-to-be-upgraded 2GB of RAM, anyway).


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## bjt3833 (Jan 11, 2016)

What netbook do you have that can't upgrade the ram? I didn't know those even existed. 



Cyclops942 said:


> Everything works the same as it did under Windows 8.1... this is a recently-acquired netbook that was never intended to have much to do other than surf the web, print a few things, and play a few light games, so my expectations have always been pretty low. The main reason for upgrading to Win10 was the near-constant BSODs (Blue Screens Of Death) under Win8.1, and that seems to be okay now (well... so long as I don't tax the wimpy, unable-to-be-upgraded 2GB of RAM, anyway).


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## dc38 (Jan 11, 2016)

Netbook or chromebook


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## Cyclops942 (Jan 11, 2016)

dc38 said:


> Netbook or chromebook


Truly, it's neither... it's a Windows 11" notebook with 2GB RAM and 32GB disk (which they don't call SSD, but it is electronic, not magnetic).


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## recDNA (Jan 11, 2016)

Anybody find a way to get rid of the upgrade popup reminders?


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## NoNotAgain (Jan 11, 2016)

recDNA said:


> Anybody find a way to get rid of the upgrade popup reminders?




Try reading this and you'll thank me in the morning. http://www.theregister.co.uk/2016/01/08/windows_10_upgrade_blocker/


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## HarryN (Jan 26, 2016)

Just installed a new Patriot Ignite SSD and Linux Mint Mate. In the words of a famous marketing guy - "It just works". Amazing really.


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## Armayor (Jan 26, 2016)

We stayed with W7 as long as possible. Every time Windows 8 was mentioned there was a momentary shortness of breath. No way were we to touch that so called upgrade. When W10 was announced we all heard those scary footsteps, was it to be like a W8 upgrade?
Supprise it was much better than expected. We reserved at the last week and installed months after hoping the the program moths and gremlins would be vanquished.
Easy install and a short learning curve.


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## HarryN (Jan 27, 2016)

Armayor said:


> We stayed with W7 as long as possible. Every time Windows 8 was mentioned there was a momentary shortness of breath. No way were we to touch that so called upgrade. When W10 was announced we all heard those scary footsteps, was it to be like a W8 upgrade?
> Supprise it was much better than expected. We reserved at the last week and installed months after hoping the the program moths and gremlins would be vanquished.
> Easy install and a short learning curve.



I am sure that MS has worked hard to make the shift as painless as possible For equipment suppliers with:
- production user customers
- with Win 7 based front ends on their equipment 
- very high reliability requirements

shifting the OS is a big deal with high costs and no ROI.

In my case, moving my business and personal use to LibreOffice several years ago saved a lot of money vs buying MS Office, and it helped avoid that ridiculous banner. Moving things over to Linux Mint Mate, which for users, is just like Win 7 Pro, provides business software stability and upgrades that we can plan ourselves.

The icing on the cake, is I can now also use a few computers where the original OEM software discs were lost, and make one into a server test bed without paying over $500 / each for an OS and office s/w features. 

I am not bashing MS or Apple, but I could not figure out any possible way to justify the software costs of either approach vs. Linux Mint + LibreOffice, on the desktop or on a server application.


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## knotgoofy (Jan 29, 2016)

I don't see myself upgrading to it anytime soon. Not just because I've heard so many bad things about it but because Win 8 still works perfectly fine for me.


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## Cyclops942 (Jan 31, 2016)

knotgoofy said:


> I don't see myself upgrading to it anytime soon. Not just because I've heard so many bad things about it but because Win 8 still works perfectly fine for me.


Might as well get your free copy now, while it is still free. Downloading it does NOT mean you have to install it, but at least you will have your licensed copy handy for when (if) you decide to upgrade.

(just my $0.02 worth... and remember that free advice is usually worth what you pay for it)


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## recDNA (Jan 31, 2016)

Cyclops942 said:


> Might as well get your free copy now, while it is still free. Downloading it does NOT mean you have to install it, but at least you will have your licensed copy handy for when (if) you decide to upgrade.
> 
> (just my $0.02 worth... and remember that free advice is usually worth what you pay for it)


That's a great tip! I thought I HAD to install. Once downloaded how do you delay installation? How do you later DO installation. Thanks.


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## Lebkuecher (Feb 2, 2016)

So far I like Windows 10 for the most part but about twice a month I will be working on something and without warning this screen appears and the computer restarts. Anything not saved is lost in the windows graveyard never to be seen again. This happened today and am curious if anyone else was experiencing unexpected crashes.


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## PhotonWrangler (Feb 2, 2016)

Actual Windows 10 error message...


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## Cyclops942 (Feb 8, 2016)

recDNA said:


> That's a great tip! I thought I HAD to install. Once downloaded how do you delay installation? How do you later DO installation. Thanks.


IIRC, it was pretty obvious how to download and NOT install... just don't click the "Install Now" button (or whatever it's called). As far as how to install it later, just remember what filename you used to save the downloaded file, and when you're ready, go double-click on the beastie.


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## recDNA (Feb 8, 2016)

Cyclops942 said:


> IIRC, it was pretty obvious how to download and NOT install... just don't click the "Install Now" button (or whatever it's called). As far as how to install it later, just remember what filename you used to save the downloaded file, and when you're ready, go double-click on the beastie.


Thanks. Snowed in tonight so that is a good task.


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## HarryN (Feb 16, 2016)

If you have not tried it, consider to use LibreOffice instead of MS office on your computer. Big money saver and works great. I suppose I should start a separate thread on it. Available for Mac, Win, and LInux.


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## Kestrel (Feb 16, 2016)

HarryN said:


> If you have not tried it, consider to use LibreOffice instead of MS office on your computer. Big money saver and works great. I suppose I should start a separate thread on it. Available for Mac, Win, and LInux.


I did an 'inquiry thread' on it pretty recently:

*Looking at non-MS 'Office' apps. Recommendations ?*

I subsequently installed LibreOffice with no significant issues, although I admit that I'm a very light user.


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## markr6 (Feb 16, 2016)

PhotonWrangler said:


> Actual Windows 10 error message...



Perfect! I thought something may have happened, but I wasn't sure. But since they said it twice, something definitely happened!


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## PROTOOLNUT (Feb 23, 2016)

markr6 said:


> Perfect! I thought something may have happened, but I wasn't sure. But since they said it twice, something definitely happened!




Yeah, something happened alright, you put your faith in Microsoft like a good oh boy, and they pissed on you while telling you its raining. I have never trusted Microsoft since after the Windows 98 days. They left so many back doors for hackers to get into that if you didn't operate a firewall, you'd be screwed in more ways you could possibly imagine you could be screwed.

The answer is, hell no I am not going to upgrade to Windows 10. First of all, Windows 10 has a severe lack of driver support for older hardware. Secondly, and perhaps the most important, Microsoft could give 2 sh**s for your privacy. They force you to become their good little monkey, then will freely without your permission report all your activities to the authorities and also advertising agencies.

By accepting Microsofts terms of service, you give them the right to do this to you. Yes I am sure you've heard that you can turn a lot of those privacy infringing options off, but there is something you don't know. Even if you turn them all off, there is still one you can't turn off, that you have no choice but to have your data sent to Microsoft. 

And I got a third reason why I aint upgrading. Frankly, when I bought this notebook in 2012, it already had Windows 7 loaded on it. And then I upgraded it to Windows 7 ultimate, which gives me a load of other options. Windows 7 for the most part runs perfectly, so why in the heck do I need a new OS for? Microsoft is in business to make big money, but they can't do that unless they release new systems to force people to upgrade to.

Microsoft supported Windows XP, which was an awesome OS BTW, for at least 14 years! Its been no where near 14 years yet for Windows 7, so I don't feel the rush to sign away my civil rights.


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## recDNA (Feb 23, 2016)

markr6 said:


> Perfect! I thought something may have happened, but I wasn't sure. But since they said it twice, something definitely happened!


So have you found/fixed the problem?


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## PhotonWrangler (Feb 23, 2016)

I agree. I don't need a constantly changing operating system; I need stability, predictability and continuity. My OS should just boot the computer and then get the hell out of the way.


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## markr6 (Feb 24, 2016)

recDNA said:


> So have you found/fixed the problem?



Yes, I did something


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## PROTOOLNUT (Feb 24, 2016)

markr6 said:


> Yes, I did something




Microsoft is total soup nazzi lol


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## stfc69 (Feb 24, 2016)

I've been on Windows 10 for a few months now without any problems (touches wood) I get more issues with the crappy Acer laptop it's installed on...

Slightly off topic but has anyone upgraded to Android Marshmallow?


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## PROTOOLNUT (Feb 24, 2016)

stfc69 said:


> I've been on Windows 10 for a few months now without any problems (touches wood) I get more issues with the crappy Acer laptop it's installed on...
> 
> Slightly off topic but has anyone upgraded to Android Marshmallow?




Yeah I just found out most recently there is a new Android version 5.1 I believe it is. My tablet is still running on 4.4 Kitkat lol. My tablet is generic however so that means its not supported by who made it, which means I can't get the new version of Android. But those who have Samsung Galaxies can probably get the new version.

Good question though cause I am curious to know how much better it is from Kitkat?


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## stfc69 (Feb 24, 2016)

My Moto G is ready to update but I've held off for now, haven't had the phone long and it's working perfectly so don't want to ruin it!


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## PhotonWrangler (Feb 24, 2016)

markr6 said:


> Yes, I did something



Then something else happened.


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## recDNA (Feb 25, 2016)

I've consoled myself to stick with 8.1. My Asus works fine so why mess with it? Now if I could update my Vista using desktop to 10 for free I would. Couldn't be any worse than Vista but no way I would pay for it.


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## G. Scott H. (Feb 26, 2016)

My personal transition from 7 to 10 was hideous and painful, but I finally got it figured out, and now everything is peachy. I actually enjoy using 10 now, although I still can't get IE to work properly (couldn't get it to work well on 7 either), so I've just stuck with Chrome (which works as well with 10 as it did with 7).


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## vestureofblood (Mar 3, 2016)

So apparently vesture is doing something wrong. I download win10 from the microsoft website and ran the install. Its asking me for a product key now. Where am I suppose to get this from?


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## HarryN (Oct 24, 2016)

Life is funny. I bought a new (industrial) product that uses windows .net software, so now I will have to buy a new computer with win 7 pro, as it is not certified on anything newer. I had hoped to be done with win and just stay with linux, but I guess not quite yet.


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## Chauncey Gardiner (Oct 26, 2016)

No. I'm not upgrading to Windows 10. 

~ Chance


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## vadimax (Oct 26, 2016)

In my opinion Windows 7 is the last OS from Microsoft worth attention. I hate those attempts to turn my desktop workstation into a _expletive removed _tablet.


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## jorn (Oct 26, 2016)

The tablet thing can easely be turned off. My win 10 acts and looks like the old win 7. Normal desktop. Had no issues with it. Wanted to install win 7 on my brand new laptop until i found out how to turn that stuff off.


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## jonny89 (Oct 26, 2016)

I'm switched from 8.1 to Windows 10. No bad.


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## RBR (Nov 5, 2016)

.....


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## sgt253 (Nov 5, 2016)

Using it right now to type this. I like it. No problems here.


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## bykfixer (Nov 8, 2016)

For those upgrading to Office 365 and like Windows Picture Manager for basic edits... it's gone with the new upgrade. 

My company installed 'Infranware' on my work computer. It's not bad. Once you learn your way through it, things are pretty user friendly. They also installed 'Gimp 2' but that's a lot more in depth. It's for more like photoshop type uses. 
Neither support RAW by the way. And if either does white balance correct I haven't found it... but today was day one with both so....

I work for a company with a huge network so security is a big deal. Even the head of IT has to have another IT guy install programs to _his_ computer. So for them to reccomend that particular 'freeware' must mean it's pretty safe from back door stuff and those little critters that like to live in freeware.


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## PhotonWrangler (Nov 8, 2016)

I think that Gimp is pretty well vetted, being open source and all. I've found it to be a little glitchy on my Win 7 machine so I don't use it much. I used to use PaintShop Pro until Corel bought it and wrecked it.


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## bykfixer (Nov 9, 2016)

My wife likes paint shop too.


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## markr6 (Nov 10, 2016)

The search on my Windows 10 simply WILL NOT WORK! I messed with all the indexing stuff and all the tricks/help I could find online. Nothing. It searches my dropbox folder, outlook messages and that's about it. I have 2 hard drives and it isn't searching those.


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## maukka (Nov 10, 2016)

If you only need to search filenames, Everything is everything you need.


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