# Is ROP/Pelican 3854 really 1150 lumens?



## Burnt_Retinas (Feb 8, 2006)

Excuse my ignorance of background research done on hotwires, but I just have to ask...

Where does the figure of 1150 bulb lumens for the Pelican 3854 primary bulb used in the ROP mod come from?

I've read what details I had time for here and even the ROP write-up on flashlight reviews, but all I have got to go regarding lumen output for anything using this lamp that was from a source likely to have tested it is the Pelican info for the BigD, which quoted that light at 600/610 lumens when using this bulb in that light. I'm not even clear if it's bulb lumens they quote or output from flashlight.

Is 1150 lumens fabricated upon a wish, or is it fact?

If it is this good, I want one  

Thanks,

Chris


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## Delvance (Feb 8, 2006)

The figure, i'm pretty sure comes from an equation. I don't know it myself but a fair few people have worked it out to be about there. I seem to remember someone having a link in their sig to a page that could approximate bulb lumens by inputting volts etc.


Also quite positive the Pelican stated 600lumens is bulb lumens. At it's overdriven ROP config state, a ROP puts out a little bit more than a SF M6 HOLA, which gives about 630 output lumens with fresh batt's.

Far as i can tell, 1150 is roughly about right  . JS had actually sent a bulb that was potted into a reflector to be tested in an integrating sphere and after considering lense losses etc, output was determinded to be about 65% of the bulb lumens.

So we have...

0.65 x 1150 = ~747

Keep in mind M6 HOLA fresh is ~630 lumens, and a good ROP has a little more... it sounds good to me lol


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## cmacclel (Feb 8, 2006)

I read that the M6 HOLA is near 1000 lumens on fresh cells and believe it. The M6 is rated at 500 Lumens half way through the burn. My M6 on *Fresh* Cells has pretty much the same output as a ROP HOLA running on 6 CBP1650's. The ROP in a mag host with a Medium Stripple reflector has a much wider side spill with a slightly brighter but smaller hotspot. After a few minutes of runtime the M6 is noticeably dimmer but then stays that way through most of the battery life. Also not the M6 has a bigger reflector 


Are was talking out the front lumens or bulb lumens before loss?? The 1150 for the ROP is Bulb lumens before loss.


Mac









Delvance said:


> The figure, i'm pretty sure comes from an equation. I don't know it myself but a fair few people have worked it out to be about there. I seem to remember someone having a link in their sig to a page that could approximate bulb lumens by inputting volts etc.
> 
> 
> Also quite positive the Pelican stated 600lumens is bulb lumens. At it's overdriven ROP config state, a ROP puts out a little bit more than a SF M6 HOLA, which gives about 630 output lumens with fresh batt's.
> ...


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## Delvance (Feb 8, 2006)

Yah, when i said 1150, i meant bulb lumens. I'm not at all surprised the M6 HOLA with fresh batts is near a 1000 lumens  . Gorgeous light, i don't own one myself but a workmate brought his in one day, with half depleted batteries. I already built my 2D cbp ROP then but was still positively surprised by the M6 HOLA. Gorgeous beam, but i like my lights throwy...


Burnt_Retinas

I'd say roughly, yes. The bulb lumens of a ROP is 1150. Veterans, please correct me if i'm wrong!


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## adirondackdestroyer (Feb 8, 2006)

cmacclel,

You say you have a 2D ROP running on 1650 batteries. I will be running the same thing on 2500 Energizers and 2600 Amondotech, how much of a difference do you think there will be (in lumens) roughly?


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## cmacclel (Feb 8, 2006)

Modamag figured around 25% increase in brightness using the CBP1650's over the Sanyo / Engergizer / Durecell 2500mah cells. I myself on a fresh charge on each set of batteries measure

High output lamp

CB2500's 4.3 amps
Sanyo 2500's 3.8amps
CBP1650's 4.2amps

The low lamp draws 2.2amps


Thats why my new light utilizes the CBP2500's as the hold great voltage underload and still have good capacity.


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## adirondackdestroyer (Feb 8, 2006)

cmacclel said:


> Modamag figured around 25% increase in brightness using the CBP1650's over the Sanyo / Engergizer / Durecell 2500mah cells. I myself on a fresh charge on each set of batteries measure
> 
> High output lamp
> 
> ...


 

Ok, thanks. So that would mean if I ran my 2D ROP on Energizers, that it would be around 100 lumens less than if I ran it on 1650's ? 

I wanted to run it on 1650's, but it seemed to difficult to do because they lack a nipple on the positve end of the battery.


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## Delvance (Feb 8, 2006)

If you're using Modamag's 6aa to 2D series holder for your ROP, it will still work with CBP 1650's, but you do have to break away the plastic ring on the holder.


http://candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?p=1231240#post1231240
for a pic.


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## thezman (Feb 8, 2006)

Do the CBP2500's have a nipple?


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## Delvance (Feb 8, 2006)

They don't have nipples.


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## missionaryman (Feb 8, 2006)

are the CBP2500 A or AA?


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## jdriller (Feb 8, 2006)

2500 = A


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## lexina (Feb 8, 2006)

missionaryman said:


> are the CBP2500 A or AA?


 
They are A-sized. Same height (1.95") but fatter (0.66" vs 0.56").


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## lexina (Feb 8, 2006)

cmacclel said:


> Thats why my new light utilizes the CBP2500's as the hold great voltage underload and still have good capacity.


 
Do 6 of the CBP2500 'A'-size fit in modamag's 6AA-2D adaptors?


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## jdriller (Feb 8, 2006)

No


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## cmacclel (Feb 9, 2006)

lexina said:


> Do 6 of the CBP2500 'A'-size fit in modamag's 6AA-2D adaptors?





The light needs to be Tri-Bored to use the "A" size cells.


Mac


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## lexina (Feb 9, 2006)

cmacclel said:


> The light needs to be Tri-Bored to use the "A" size cells.
> 
> Mac


 
Yup, thanks. Just remembered that 5mega recently did a run of tri-bored 2Ds which would accept the new 6A-2D adapters -

https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/106022


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## Burnt_Retinas (Feb 9, 2006)

Thanks guys,

At least I now know the origins of the 1150 lumens and it's nice to know such a globe in a Mag requires comparison to an M6 HOLA for perspective.

I'm after building either a Mag85/2D or the ROP so I can compare shots with you guy's with my other flashlights. We're a bit left out down under for flashlight shootouts.

This way looking at the AW C Li-Ion cells in a 2D/Mag85 with soft start/current limit initially (assuming C Li-Ion happens), but the ROP is an option. A 3 X AW C Li-Ion at 4AH+ in a 2D Mag would be real nice for an 01185. Based upon dry cell C length I think this one can be pulled off for a 2D, just, with a board and small battery spring in the base of a de-anodized (inside) tail-cap.

Modamag, may be worth checking this mod config out for a holder for the C's, perhaps even a complete mod? It'll double the run time for a Mag85/2D relative to NiMH's for a 2D as the C cells are over 4AH and the AH capacity of the NiMH's will of course not be as stated at 3A+ current drain. It'll need soft start of course due to protection circuit, but soft start is a real necessity anyhow for bulb life and prevention of insta-flash for overdrive configs. 

Thanks again,

Chris


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## wtraymond (Feb 9, 2006)

Burnt_Retinas said:


> This way looking at the AW C Li-Ion cells in a 2D/Mag85 with soft start/current limit initially (assuming C Li-Ion happens), but the ROP is an option. A 3 X AW C Li-Ion at 4AH+ in a 2D Mag would be real nice for an 01185. Based upon dry cell C length I think this one can be pulled off for a 2D, just, with a board and small battery spring in the base of a de-anodized (inside) tail-cap.
> 
> Modamag, may be worth checking this mod config out for a holder for the C's, perhaps even a complete mod? It'll double the run time for a Mag85/2D relative to NiMH's for a 2D as the C cells are over 4AH and the AH capacity of the NiMH's will of course not be as stated at 3A+ current drain. It'll need soft start of course due to protection circuit, but soft start is a real necessity anyhow for bulb life and prevention of insta-flash for overdrive configs.



Wouldn't it be easier to build that 3C Mag85 with a 3C Maglite host rather than a 2D? The 3C Mag is much lighter and actually built to hold 'C' size cells. You wouldn't have to modify it to fit the batteries. I'm really looking forward to putting two 'C' li-ions in my 2C Mag ROP LE to replace the 18650s.

I believe the li-ion 'C' cells will be rated at 3600-3800mah according to AW. CBPs provides graphs for all their NiMH high drain batteries to estimate capacity and voltage at high current rates. SilverFox has some great graphs in the 'Flashlight Electronic - Batteries Included' forum which show capacity of the more common Sanyo, Energizer, Titanium, Panasonic, etc... NiMHs at high drain.


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## cmacclel (Feb 9, 2006)

I have a 3d Mag85 running 9 x CBP1650's and it's noticably brighter than the ROP. It's just HUGE. I like little lights 


Mac











Burnt_Retinas said:


> Thanks guys,
> 
> At least I now know the origins of the 1150 lumens and it's nice to know such a globe in a Mag requires comparison to an M6 HOLA for perspective.
> 
> ...


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## Burnt_Retinas (Feb 10, 2006)

wtraymond,

Yes it would be easier for a 3C, but I need a challenge. I also like the feel of the 2D and it's over 20mm shorter than the 3C. The D also has more room for regulators, soft-start circuits etc. I just find it nicer for my needs. You are of course correct on AH capacity, I must have had the protection current limit in my mind when posting. I was soooo thrilled the C Li-Ions can handle the 01185 without problems - with soft start or current limit circuit of course most likely needed.

cmacclel,

Ditto re 3D way too big. Not a fan of a 3D at all. Thanks for letting me know your opinion re ROP vs. Mag 85 brightness. I now know which I'll aim for first now (85) but I have a feeling I'll probably end up doing the CPF 'thing' and buy both lamps.

Chris


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## Yooper (Feb 10, 2006)

When I finally get all my Mag85 parts I'll do a side by side 2D(6 CBP1650/fivemega holder/LOP/UCL) ROP and 3D(9 CBP1650/modamag holder/LOP/UCL) Mag85 shootout. I'll include my 6D (7 NiMH C cell/SMO/borofloat) LOLA ROP as well...


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## KevinL (Feb 11, 2006)

Hey folks,

I derived the 1150 lumen figure from an rerating formula given to me by one of the great incandescent gurus which determines the increase in output when a bulb is overdriven. As stated correctly these are bulb lumens. I typically derate by 0.60 (apparently more conservative than the 0.65 figure) and call it an even 700 output lumens. 

If anybody has an integrating sphere to test these numbers, I would be grateful to hear about your results.  I too believe that mathematical modelling is NOT a substitute for actual field testing.


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## PlayboyJoeShmoe (Feb 12, 2006)

Stupidity ate a nice post.

ROP Hi on 2xAW18650unprotected draws 4.10amp and is noticeably whiter than ROP Hi on 6AA NimH (3.93A).

7AA Nimh or 6xHigh Current cells, may very well be better.
But I've only the 1 ROP Hi and I ain't risking it!!!

A 6D with decent cells and a ROP Low should be KILLER white and run for hours.... but I have no way to confirm that!


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## cmacclel (Feb 12, 2006)

PlayboyJoeShmoe said:


> Stupidity ate a nice post.
> 
> ROP Hi on 2xAW18650unprotected draws 4.10amp and is noticeably whiter than ROP Hi on 6AA NimH (3.93A).
> 
> ...




You should see it on my "A" pack. It draws 4.3-4.4 amps


Mac


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## PlayboyJoeShmoe (Feb 12, 2006)

But that would reqiure batteries I don't have and a tri-bored M*g I don't have and I ain't likely to have either for a long time.

ROP LE makes a good demo light to show what's possible....


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## Yooper (Feb 12, 2006)

PlayboyJoeShmoe said:


> A 6D with decent cells and a ROP Low should be KILLER white and run for hours.... but I have no way to confirm that!




My 6D with 7 Titanium 5000 mah NiMH C cells and ROP low is just that. I love this light. Very white, beautiful beam with the MOP reflector, and so far very durable as a utility light on my 4-wheeling truck. Calculated runtime is well over three hours, but I haven't measured it. I have at least an hour and a half of intermittent use so far and it's as bright as ever.

I have a 6C Mag on order and will be building it into a ROP High with six 5000 mah NiMH D cells, which should give me about 2 hours. This will be the vehicle light for my daily driver.


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## Burnt_Retinas (Feb 13, 2006)

The ROP seems to get results for the happy factor. Seems the ROP and 85 have their own needs out there. Both it is for a trial.

Looking forward to a back-to-back ROP vs 85 beamshot Yooper.

....hope I don't get addicted to hotwires, I've avoided valves to-date....

Chris


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## lexina (Feb 13, 2006)

Yooper said:


> My 6D with 7 Titanium 5000 mah NiMH C cells and ROP low is just that. I love this light. Very white, beautiful beam with the MOP reflector, and so far very durable as a utility light on my 4-wheeling truck.


 
So the ROP low won't insta-flash with 7 cells? Did you have to wait a certain amount of time for the 7 cells to cool down before switching on? Have you tried 7 cells with the ROP high as well? Thks.


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## Yooper (Feb 13, 2006)

lexina said:


> So the ROP low won't insta-flash with 7 cells? Did you have to wait a certain amount of time for the 7 cells to cool down before switching on? Have you tried 7 cells with the ROP high as well? Thks.




With 7 cells you are right on the edge of flashing any ROP bulb. I flashed a ROP High bulb with this same light. This was with 7 fully charged but 24 hour rested Titanium 5000 mah NiMH C's. I did slightly modify the Mag switch for lower resistance by soldering the spring caps on and I treated EVERY contact surface in the light with DeOxit and ProGold. I think maybe the manufacturing tolerances in the bulbs come into play at this stage and that possibly the ROP Low bulb that I am using is a particularly robust one. I have a hunch that the ROP Low bulbs might inherently be more robust than the ROP High bulbs.

A 7 cell ROP is risky! We definitely need regulation. I plan on trying out the regulators from both winny and awr eventually...


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## lexina (Feb 13, 2006)

Yooper said:


> With 7 cells you are right on the edge of flashing any ROP bulb. I flashed a ROP High bulb with this same light. This was with 7 fully charged but 24 hour rested Titanium 5000 mah NiMH C's. I did slightly modify the Mag switch for lower resistance by soldering the spring caps on and I treated EVERY contact surface in the light with DeOxit and ProGold. I think maybe the manufacturing tolerances in the bulbs come into play at this stage and that possibly the ROP Low bulb that I am using is a particularly robust one. I have a hunch that the ROP Low bulbs might inherently be more robust than the ROP High bulbs.
> 
> A 7 cell ROP is risky! We definitely need regulation. I plan on trying out the regulators from both winny and awr eventually...


 
Thks. You prob saved me a few bulbs!


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## Warhoggie (Feb 27, 2006)

Hmmmm...I been using 7 cells (Sanyo 2500s) on ROP for the last two months and no instant flash yet, and this is right off the charger. Quality control issue?


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## cmacclel (Feb 27, 2006)

Warhoggie said:


> Hmmmm...I been using 7 cells (Sanyo 2500s) on ROP for the last two months and no instant flash yet, and this is right off the charger. Quality control issue?




The issue is that your using AA cells and he's using "C" cells. The "C" cells hold a higher voltage under load.


Mac


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