# Surefire M900/M910 Question...



## angelofwar (Jan 27, 2010)

I'm getting an AR-15 (Probably the S&W MP Model in .223/5.56mm), and definitely wanna get the baddest weapon light ever made for it...just have a quick question so you may be able to sway my opinion. 

For those that have used both, which is better, the red or white navigation LED's??? I prefer the "stealth"/night vision saving properties of the red, but I think the white may be better off (more used) in the long run. This won't be a duty weapon (we get issued M16-A2's for the real deal), but will be for rec/home defense/varmint/apocalypse, etc. Any opinions on either, or first hand experience??? Any opinions on the M95X/M96X lights? I know they don't come with the nav leds, but is there any plus to them over the vertical fore-grip models in real world useage???

Thanks!


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## Search (Jan 28, 2010)

Our SWAT team is issued vertical fore grips for their M4s. Some have red and some have white.

They are both equally effective as navigation lights. 

Now here is what really matters, I don't think either is better than the other at keeping people from noticing the light. Red might be better by a hair

So it comes down to personal preference of what color works best for you as either preserving night vision or lighting your way.


I don't think either really holds a "tactical advantage" over the other to say it simply.


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## beavo451 (Jan 28, 2010)

The M9xx lights are very heavy, very expensive, and obsolete. For a weaponlight, you would be much better off with a Surefire 6P with a M60 or some other drop-in, the VTAC L4 (essentially a E2 body with a KX2C head), SF M600C Scout light, M300 mini Scout light, or X300. All these LED options will have similar output, superior runtime, and better durability vs. the obsolete incandescent models.


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## Justin Case (Jan 28, 2010)

I have an M900 on a Colt SMG. If you aren't using full auto (whether SMG or M4/M16), I don't see much use for a VFG, which I use to crank the SMG in-tight to the shoulder pocket. If you have an M95x or M96x and you later decide that you want a VFG, you can always add one.

For home defense, I don't see much utility for nav lights. I already know my home layout. Any light that is out of place -- and that includes any red or white light that is moving -- is going to be a target indicator. So I don't see color helping wrt stealth. Stealth is obtained via noise and light discipline. The nav lights are all very low intensity and they are shielded from your direct view since they point 180 degrees away from your eyes. Thus, I also don't see much, if any, issue regarding low light adaptation. 


The issues I see wrt M900 vs M95x vs M96x include:
Light placement relative to the barrel. The M900 places the light at 6 o'clock. The M95x and M96x can clamp at any location available on your rail system (basically 12, 3, 6, or 9 o'clock, with further location adjustment available via appropriate selection of your mounting hardware if you aren't wedded to the SF mount). Light placement can affect issues such as barrel shadowing (IMO, particularly noticeable with 6 o'clock mounts), light splashback from barricades (often mitigated, but not always, by canting the gun), operator access to the switching system without altering your firing grip (for some placements, you can use your thumb to run the light; for other placement positions, you might need a remote tape switch), and access to the switching system if you change shoulders (I personally don't like changing left vs right hand shoulder as a function of right or left barricade, regardless of lighting system).
M95x is P60 lamp based. Thus, lamp upgrades are probably easiest (although there may be some specific fitting issues depending on which P60-style drop-in you might select). Also, the bezel-to-body threading is 6P ("C") based, so regular SF 6P bezels, KT1/KT2 THs, and the like should screw on without problems.
M96x is MN10/MN11 tower-based. Thus, LED tower upgrades are essentially non-existent for the stock Z46 bezel setup (CPFer koala is long-sold out of his LED towers). You could get a Lumens Factory or nailbender D36 drop-in, but that also requires that you muck around with your Z46 bezel. nailbender does have a turnkey option where he offers an already-mod'ed Z46 Chinese clone bezel. The M96x also uses Millennium ("M") threading for the bezel-to-body attachment. Thus, another method for lighting upgrades is to get a KT4 TH or a 3rd party M-threaded TH (e.g., Lumens Factory Seraph P7, goinggear.com MC-E head, OpticsHQ TX3 head).
M900 is also MN10/MN11 tower-based, so the same lamp upgrade considerations as for the M96x apply.
M900 holds 3x123A vertically. Thus, that system is probably least susceptible to recoil damage to the batteries. On the other hand, you are locked into 3x123A (or 3x16340). I've never heard of any 1x123A extension tubes, for example. You could use 1x17670 plus a 123A-sized spacer (assuming you use an LED-based lamp system that can run on one Li-ion), but that seems hardly ideal. the M900 tube can't fit a 18650, but it looks like there is enough metal for boring.


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## Mercaptan (Jan 28, 2010)

beavo451 said:


> The M9xx lights are *very heavy, very expensive, and obsolete*. For a weaponlight, you would be much better off with a Surefire 6P with a M60 or some other drop-in, the VTAC L4 (essentially a E2 body with a KX2C head), SF M600C Scout light, M300 mini Scout light, or X300. All these LED options will have similar output, superior runtime, and better durability vs. the obsolete incandescent models.




Yup.

Even my M951 is pretty aged for this day. My beef with the M900/M910 series is that the vertical foregrip (really a great idea on a carbine) is too close to the LED head and it makes you do the 'beer can' hold on the vertical foregrip. 

For example:








The vertical foregrip grip in the picture is what you are reduced to using with the M900/M910 series. It works, but not very well, and there are certainly better options. I use the thumb break vertical grip myself, which allows faster transitions. Due to the spacing of the M900/M910, you could not use this practice with said gear.

My best advice? Get the AR, take a class where they instruct you how to use the weapon best, then go from there. Once you figure out your shooting style you will figure out that A) weight upfront is bloat, and slows you down and B) ergonomics are everything, depending on your own personal style

Until then, I certainly wouldn't 'waste' the money on the M900/M910; there are several reasons why the M900/M910 series lights are popping up on auction sites used. There are better alternatives. 

My own personal, light-weight sweet-spot would be an E2E body, Z68 tailcap, VME head, Malkoff M60, and finally a LaRue mount to top it off. Lightweight and able to be positioned wherever my thumb dictates.


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## Solscud007 (Jan 28, 2010)

Just to add my monkey wrench into the topic, If you get the M900 VFG type you can get a Lumen Factory Seraph P7 head for $98 and crank out SF M6 like output of light. around 850-900 lumens. That is a LOT of light. almost too much.

Best thing is to just buy them all. I dont have a M900 grip but I have a scoutlight and the M952XM so I can have either a P60 host type or an eseries for light weight. 

There isnt really going to be an all in one light for a weapon. just get lights that meet certain requirements or can cover a few requirements. 

Lightweight is always great. 

As Chris Costa of Magpul Dynamics does, he has two eseries lights. I dont know if they are two scoutlights or not. anyway I think he has one as a thrower type light and the other as pure flood. that way you have two small light weight lights that cover s very broad range of environments you may need one type of light or the other.


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## angelofwar (Jan 29, 2010)

Thanks for all the replies guys...I figured the M900/910's woulda had more love...I just got rid of my scoutlight too to fund my kroma purchase! Looks like I'll do a M95X/96X (9-volt), and grab an lu60 to use it in a 6V config as well. Any opinons as too the 6V/9V models as far as fit/finish/handling?

I'll try out a tango down grip with the switch slot cut-out, and see how that feels. I have an M78 and a few E-series light, and G/P-Series mounts, I just wanted to get a consensus for the best "rifle" weapon light. I have plenty of training...just that it's with full size M16's (I did get to shoot an M60 once too...full auto...that was awesome!)

I'd wait for the new "Raid", but if I get n M95/95X now, It gives an excuse to get the Raid later, and then I'll have two!

Thanks again for all the feedback/opinions, and I'll post some pic's once I get it rigged up 

It'll really compliment my 870 Marine Magnum w/ 918FA!

P.S. Anyone know a source off the top of there head for a good deal on full kits? I don't really trust the bay when it comes to these types of purchases? Or a decent used one they want to get rid of?


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## nzgunnie (Jan 29, 2010)

M95 and M96 series lights only come up very occasionally on the CPFMP, not sure why but the larger weapon lights are not big sellers on here, although scout lights and components are pretty common and go pretty quickly.

Ebay tends to have some decent prices on M95 lights. Or AR15.com perhaps?


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## Justin Case (Jan 29, 2010)

If you want a knowledgeable SureFire dealer, try Lagger Professional Services. Wayne Lagger is a multiple Gunsite grad, including IIRC some of their carbine courses.


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## Solscud007 (Jan 29, 2010)

Try Gunbroker.com. It is like eBay but only for weapons and accessories. 

Also if you get a m962 type weapon light you can still use the seraph P7 head. It works with 3x cells or 2x rechargeable li-ons


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## Justin Case (Jan 29, 2010)

My main hesitation with the Seraph P7 head is the apparently poor driver regulation. Also apparently the head is fairly well buttoned up so mod'ing the head to install a different driver looks to be a hassle. The OpticsHQ head supposedly uses a standard P60-style pill that can be removed and replaced.


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## signal 13 (Jan 30, 2010)

Solscud007 said:


> ...Best thing is to just buy them all...


That's what I've done, and I finally found what I was looking for (see below)



nzgunnie said:


> ...not sure why but the larger weapon lights are not big sellers on here...


I think the reason is that once someone buys something like the M900 or M500, they are hooked! Both are quite awesome.


I personally have NEVER liked vertical foregrips. I tried to get into them, but just don't like 'em. Even bought the M900. It was an awesome light, loved the ambi pressure pads, nav LEDs, and it was built like a freakin tank! I also like that there were no cables to snag or fray like on the M951/2 & M961/2. But I just didn't like the bulk, the weight, weight of a quad rail, etc. Don't get me wrong, I'm not a total weight weenie. 

I recently converted over to the M500. I put it on my duty rifle and I love it. I want to use KISS (Keep It Simple, Stupid) setups on all my rifles. Less crap hanging off my rifle. No cables, no rail, no vertical foregrip. I want 'em lightweight and sleek. 

I have a second M500 on order for my LMT short barrel and will probably buy a third when I buy my Noveske.

As for nav LEDs I have white on one and red on the one I have on order. Not too worried about what color does what as long as they work.


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## angelofwar (Jan 30, 2010)

Thanks for the website links! I really like the look of the M500's, but don't think they'd work to well, me being a lefty...I did find a good price on a M961P, which has the SW01 slim!!! Might go foer that, and get an xm07 later, just so I have the sw01 slim.


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## beavo451 (Jan 30, 2010)

nzgunnie said:


> M95 and M96 series lights only come up very occasionally on the CPFMP, not sure why but the larger weapon lights are not big sellers on here, although scout lights and components are pretty common and go pretty quickly.



Because the Millennium weaponlights are not as good as the Scout weaponlights or handheld light plus ring mount combos. Until SF ups the power of a P60 drop-in, the size and weight of any of the millennium weaponlights are not worth it.


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