# Are Surefires really worth the $$$ ?



## Firebladz (Sep 22, 2005)

Hey guys:

I am new here and haven't really bought a flashlight outside of a Canadian tire the best or most I ever spent on a flashlight was my mini mag probably...

I decided to do some shopping for a new light when I stumbled upon this site and well a whole new world of lights...

I also noticed that some of them are pretty pricey!

Just curious what makes them so good and worth the extra coin?

I think I found just the one for me though the rechargable SF commander 9AN, just curious how this light would compare to my 2AA mini-mag?

Thanks,
Firebladz.


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## Haesslich (Sep 23, 2005)

Surefire lights have a lifetime guarantee, superior worksmanship outside of the odd bug (quickly fixed) and they're damned tough. I'd recommend one for anybody who needs a small, bright light.  

And the 9AN would probably knock your 2AA right out of the water. Heck, even their E1 on low would far outshine the 2AA MiniMag. Trust me - Mag has NOTHING on these guys.

Or, for that matter, most of the guys whose lights we buy here.  Welcome aboard.


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## WDR65 (Sep 23, 2005)

Whoa, if you're serious. The 9AN should blow your mini-mag away, even on low output only I think it would more than triple the output of the mini-mag. They can be pricey and Surefire isn't the only good manufacturer out there but they are my favorites. I don't own a 9AN though I would love to have one, but it looks to be a very versatile flashlight. 
As far as the extra money involved it's mainly a question of output, reliability and quality. I'm sure someone else on here can explain it better, but there is a big difference. I will give maglite's credit for durability in the larger size lights, but how about the Surefire E series which feel more solid than the big Mag's and are smaller than your mini-mag. It's just something that has to be seen to be really believe I think.


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## NikolaTesla (Sep 23, 2005)

Of course they are worth it.:rock:


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## Trashman (Sep 23, 2005)

The difference between your Minimag and the 9AN you want will actually have to be seen to fully grasp. You will be absolutely blow away at the difference. No exageration. You won't regret making the purchase, either. Even if you didn't want it anymore, it could always be sold here on the B/S/T and it would retain much of it's original cost. Oldgrandpajack always seems to have very good deals on Surefire lights.


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## BlueGerbil (Sep 23, 2005)

Just go out and buy the cheapest SureFire, the G2. 
Compare it to a Maglight :naughty: :naughty: :naughty: 

Trust me, they´re worth every single buck!


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## ABTOMAT (Sep 23, 2005)

SFs are worth the money (except a couple models) for the complete package. Whether you need that package is another story. But yeah, it's the highest quality, best performing, most reliable mass-produced light out there. There are some that are better, but they aren't cheaper or easier to find.

The 9AN is a great light, and a mammoth upgrade over a Mini-Mag. To put things in perspective, SF's entry-level light (the G2) is about is bright as a 20" 6D-cell Mag-Lite, though with less throw. The 9AN is a level or two over that.


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## liteboy (Sep 23, 2005)

I am also new to this (very addictive) hobby. My first Surefire is the G2 - it is the most economical light by this brand. I, like you did not know what to expect and decided to invest a comparitively small amount of money for the G2. I am very happy with the overall quality. I have since upgraded to a higher output bulb and rechargeable batteries and love the amount of light I get! The minimag is not in the same league as a G2, much less the 9AN. Go the the surefire.com website for lot more info. I love the G2 so much that I just ordered an A2, which many consider to be the standard by which all other incandescent/led combo lights should be judged. I also have many other lights on the way - including a $280 HDS EDC 85UGT.....told you this is addictive. Wallet beware!!


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## Sigman (Sep 23, 2005)

GREAT advice above!! Start with an economical SF G2 - evaluate it and go from there.

Then if you don't like the G2, continue your search (though I suspect I already know what will happen)!?! 

Oh and remember the little expensive 123 batteries "aren't that expensive if you know where to get them"!

Then, if you "_do_" like the G2 - keep it for your vehicle's glove box and again, continue your search, because the quest for brightness, flood, throw, regulation, size, runtime...just never seems to stop! 

BTW - I _*AM*_ a "Flashaholic" - I can control it - really I can!


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## yaesumofo (Sep 23, 2005)

Surefire flashlights are worth it.
I have a couple of surefire flashlights, none of them have ever let me down.
Yaesumofo


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## 270winchester (Sep 23, 2005)

Surefires may seem pricey, but the combination of quality, durability, customer service, technological innovation/orginality, and the fact that it's one of the very few light makers to be based in a developed country, makes it very unique and worth to invest your money in.

9 Surefires later, ranging from E1L to M6, they are the only lights along with my PD and U60 and a few mag-variants that I would never sell no matter what happens...


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## nethiker (Sep 23, 2005)

Welcome to CPF Firebladz :wave:


Yes, they really are worth the $$$. I love my U2 and I want an M6 someday, or perhaps a rechargable Beast.  It's so hard to stop with just one and they just keep getting better and better.

Hi, my name's Greg, and I'm a flashaholic.


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## BIGD (Sep 23, 2005)

All of the above is absolutely true but the biggest reward will come when you get to compare it with your buddies Mag Lites. At 140 Lumens on high the 9AN will simply stop all (stock) Mag owners dead in their tracks. And when you see the beams shape and color compared to a Mag Lite you will be glad you dropped the coin. I agonized over my first Sure Fire and ended up with the C3 in Hard Anodized and from the first time I turned it on I never looked back. Surefire makes a superior or "high end" flashlight that many people trust with their lives.


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## TonkinWarrior (Sep 23, 2005)

Welcome, Firebladz. Now, to cut to the chase...

CASE ONE:
Q: When your car has a flat tire some cold, rainy night and you're parked on the highway's muddy shoulder with passing cars/trucks drenching you as you heroically struggle with the jack -- by the last yak-urine-yellow lumens of that $3.99 sieve-of-a-bargain your, umm, "thrifty" wife bought last year at the grocery store -- what would you pay Right Now for a battle-tested, waterproof light that still has enough juice to (a) clearly light up your "task" ... until you've completed it, and (b) safely illuminate/differentiate you in the oncoming headlights' rain-glare so that some 18-wheeler speeding by doesn't accidentally roll you into a turd-stain on the road? 

$3.99 X 5 = $19.95? Fifty bucks? A hundred bucks?

CASE TWO:
You and your Significant Other are traversing a baseball stadium's dimly-lit parking lot one night, gamely trying to find your car in a sea of look-alike Toyotas and Hondas. You've left the game early because she started to get labor pains, and now they're coming on faster, she's groaning in agony, and you figure you've got 20 minutes to get her to the hospital. 

Dang, just where the heck is that car? Besides, some of the lot's blasted flood lights have burned out, those shadows are scary, and your cute little $4.69 Photon knockoff keychain light imported from Outer Mongolia is only throwing a 17-inch beam, anyway. Wait! Maybe that's your damn car, right over there, next to that "arrest-me red" Caddy Escalade with pimp-mobile kustom-chrome wheels...

... where you spot four socially-disadvantaged youths move to the shadows' edge, their multiple nose-rings and tattoos glistening in the dim light. The big, gladiator-academy (prison) super-pumped one dangling a "Peace" symbol on his machete's lanyard croons "Hey, man. No problemo. Jes gimme yo wallet an' we be cool an' we don't be dancin' witch yo mombitch." 

HOW MUCH WOULD YOU PAY RIGHT NOW... to have a pocketable flashlight like a Surefire C3 that's potent enough to Reach Out And Touch Them -- and turn their crack-adapted corneas into fried peas ? (Okay, maybe a nasty flashlight backed up with a Glock-19 semi-auto stoked with Winchester Ranger 127 grain +P+ hotties...) Dang, where's Cindy Sheehan and the Michael Moore bliss-ninnies when ya need 'em, huh? 

Think tactically: "What would I do if...?"

Flashlights are tools, like hammers and guns. 
Buy the Right Tools. 
Good Tools.


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## savumaki (Sep 23, 2005)

:wave: to the black hole for money. There are endless ways in which hard earned cash can be parted with.

Like you I am new to the forum and to date I have only 5-6 mods and 4 builds under my belt.

I was a mag collector/exponent for years and then I found this forum;  ;why o why did I spend all those $ when all these gorgeous jewels were available; now I am richer by a doz lights (not counting builds) but MOST importantly, I now own a *SF L2

*I don't need throw as much as requiring a lot of light out in front of me and the L2 with it's 'wall of light' certainly fits the bill perfectly. This light is WELL made and solid; should be good for my grandchildren when I'm done with it.

Once again, welcome and good luck. Now, I'm off to rob a bank or something so i Can continue to post.

BTW, being a little crazy is not necessary, but it helps :huh:

Karl


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## skillet (Sep 23, 2005)

Run for your life.. and I mean now... Turn off your browser, disconnect from the internet.. Clear your history, delete the cookies, if need be just reformat your hard drive and do a clean install.. But whatever you do, for the love of all that is good...


*RUN!!!  

* You will never escape if you stay. It will never be bright enough. It will never run long enough. Why are you still reading this... Go... I mean it... Go now...

:duck:

You have been warned!!

May God have mercy on your soul.

skillet


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## cslinger (Sep 23, 2005)

Yes Surefires are worth the money. Their customer service is spectacular and there products are industrial works of art.

Streamlights are slightly lower cost options that are also spectacular, the TL2, TL3 and Strion specifically.

Heck if you don't need massive amounts of light Inova makes some spectacular LED based products that have awesome runtime and top notch build quality all for around $30-$70. 

Surefire's are designed first and foremost for the professional who needs a light, frequent goes in harms way and must have equipment that can take abuse. That being said a Surefire light for the average person will give a lifetime of use and produce amounts of lights that put stock store bought flashlights so far behind it's not even funny.

Pick up a G2 for $35 bucks or so and give it a try. What's $35 in the whole scheme of things. Course the G2 will most likely act like a gateway drug.


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## Beretta1526 (Sep 23, 2005)

Even the E2O (E2e Outdoorsman) with 25 lumen bulb trounces the Mag AA. If you buy a SureFire, you won't be disappointed.

I respect your choice in the 9N, but how often do you expect to use the light? If you are a security guard or LE (law enforcement) or emergency services and will use your light for more than intermittent use _daily_, then a rechargable is an excellent choice. If you don't expect to use the light more than a minute or two a day, or not even daily, then you should take a good look at the A2. The reasoning behind this is that rechargable batteries are excellent if you use them a lot, but rechargables (other than lithium) discharge on their own and leave you with a half-charge or even worse dead battery. Yes, you can leave it on the charger, and



chargers are "smart" so they don't overcharge, but this can still shorten the lifespan of the rechargable battery.

When I was originally looking at my first SureFire, I was thinking about the 9N myself. It's quite versatile, and rechargable was very appealing. After thinking about my MagCharger, and how it would sometimes be dead as a doornail if I left it off the charger for a few days (even without use at all), I decided to go with something with 123's instead. I was looking for something somewhat tactical, so I bought an M2. It's one of SureFire's great deals.

Another reason I recommend the A2 is size and the main bulb is regulated so it gets every last bit of power out of the batteries before starting to dim. It's a bit larger than a lot of other SF lights, but it's also smaller than the 9N. The A2 is small enough that it can be carried in your waistband or a front pants pocket (or jacket).

Sorry if this makes you backpeadle a little on your final decision, but it's something to consider.


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## mohr (Sep 23, 2005)

dont buy the surefire 9an if you just want to replace your old minimag. the 9an is a serious tool for people that need a great dutylight. if you want to replace your minimag buy a streamlight luxeon jr. and you will be pleased. 
about your question if surefire is expensive; yes they are expensive, but worth every penny. you have lifetime warranty without any stupid questions where you have bought that light and where the receipt is. just call customerservice and they will fix your problems. it is realy that easy, even from germany .
if you want to start with surefire flashlights dont buy the G2. the G2 is a good light but its old design and there are better flashlights for little more money. buy the G2Z if you want a nitrolon (plastic) light. buy the 6P if you want metall flashlights. but i think buying a surefire HaIII light like the A2 is the best thing you can do. the A2 is a little shorter than the minimag, has haIII coating and is sold by supremco hongkong for 119 $ in black. i think shipping is about 17-18 $ to usa. its a great little light with the best from both, led and xenon lights.
greetings from germany 
christian


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## KevinL (Sep 23, 2005)

Bought a Surefire E1e Executive, $70. Ridiculously expensive, or so I thought... "last light I'd ever need to buy". 

Heck yeah, now there are 8 more where that came from. Try one and you'll never look at lights the same way ever again. 

To understand what a Surefire is all about you have to hold and use one, you have to walk the path. Once you have walked the path....there is no turning back. Good luck and welcome to the right place to begin


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## Beretta1526 (Sep 23, 2005)

That reminds me as well... if you keep your light in good condition, you can always buy something a little nicer, sell the old one, and you've essentially upgraded. There's no better bargain than a "like new" SF light.


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## PeteBroccolo (Sep 23, 2005)

Take a look at eBay - lots of Surefires for sale on there, as well as on the B/S/T Lights thread on CPF.

I don't have any SF, but they sound great.

I take it from your nickname you are a smoke-eater?


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## 357 (Sep 23, 2005)

Absolutely! There is nothing production that matches surefire quality, althuogh HDS comes come pretty damn close (they cost $ too though). you gets what you pay for, surefire fit/finish, beam quality, engineering, massutput ratio, durability, reliability, and pride of ownership are all top notch. show me a light that can be the best of the best at most categories and is significantly lower prices than surefire, and i'll be impressed.

I recommend starting with the 6P.


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## joema (Sep 23, 2005)

Firebladz, if your main experience is a Minimag, virtually any modern light from Surefire, Streamlight, etc is vastly better than that. The discharge curve on the Minimag is really poor -- most of the running time is below 50% brightness, and about 1/2 the running time is below 30% brightness.

If you want a 2x AA-powered, Minimag form factor light but with improved technology, consider the Streamlight Jr (about $29):

http://www.flashlightreviews.com/reviews/streamlight_jr_luxeon.htm

If you want an all-round low cost great light that's somewhat larger than a Minimag (but still somewhat compact), consider the Streamlight Propoly Lux 4AA (about $27):

http://www.flashlightreviews.com/reviews/streamlight_propolyluxeon.htm

If you want a very compact, single AA-powered light, consider the Fenix 1LP (about $40); email CPF member Litemania about getting one:

http://www.fenixlight.com/

Above are all LED lights. If you want to go incandescent and Surefire, the G2 is a good starting point. You'll be shocked at the performance vs any Mag product you've likely used.

Be advised the G2 tail switch is tactical-style: button is momentary only; you must twist the tail for constant on. If you don't like this switch type, consider the Streamlight Scorpion, similar price, form factor and performance but a constant-on tail click switch. The Scorpion is also available in an LED version.

Don't intend to put you of Surefire -- they're great. But Mag is such a low bar that virtually any product from Surefire, Streamlight, etc is better. Expensive lights are available and sometimes worth it, but you don't need to spend $100 to get far better than Mag.


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## beezaur (Sep 23, 2005)

A SureFire 9AN and a MiniMag are not even the same order of magnitude. I think even Mag will tell you that.

The quastion of whether that SureFire (or any SureFire) is worth it depends upon what you want out of a light.

To be perfectly honest, you can spend $12 for a MiniMag, and have a light that will give you years of hard service. I had one attached to my backpack strap that saw hard search-and-rescue and hiking use for probably 15 years before I lost it. Spend another $12 or so, and you can get a drop-in LED conversion that will give you a lot more light and battery life. That's about all most people need, ever.

One of the guys here was talking about being in Iraq and how his MiniMag with an after-market switch failed from an "accidental on" in the heat. To quote BentHeadTX:

"For normal EDC usage, the minimag mods work very well. I used them for three years until my bizarre use showed obscure weaknesses. . . ."

SureFire lights are designed stand up to those bizarre uses. Some cheap lights will too, but you won't get both high performance and extreme reliability without paying for it.

Scott


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## greenLED (Sep 23, 2005)

I think it really depends on what you're going to use the lights for. If you use them every day, on duty, or on critical jobs... then, I'd say... maybe.

If you're just looking for a light that's better than a miniMag, there are other brands and models that'll serve your purpose. Off the top of my head, Pelican and Streamlight make extremely good lights, which you can have at a fraction of the cost of a single SF light. Some of their models would serve you as well (or maybe better than a SF). For example, SF lights are not safety-rated, some Peli's are. And if safety is critical in your work environment...

It all depends on what you'll use the lights for, so don't get carried away by the SF hype. Why buy a Rolls-Royce when a Honda will do just fine for your commute...?

Sorry, guys, but somebody had to say it.


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## C4LED (Sep 23, 2005)

These have been suggested as [email protected] replacements and are quite good/solid and much less expensive--all perfectly good as long as you're not kicking down a door w/the swat team or some such. ;-)

UK 4AA eLED
http://www.flashlightreviews.com/reviews/uk_4aaeled.htm

Streamlight Jr
http://www.flashlightreviews.com/reviews/streamlight_jr_luxeon.htm

Gerber Trio
http://www.flashlightreviews.com/reviews/gerber_trio.htm

Nuwai 311h 2aaa - or 'River Rock' at Target
http://www.flashlightreviews.com/reviews/nuwai_tm-311h_2aaa.htm


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## George1 (Sep 23, 2005)

Yes, SureFire lights are really worth the $$$. As has been mentioned, their customer service is excellent too. Build quality is very good as is the beam quality. I would suggest that you consider either a G2 or E2E which is modular and is a good first choice.


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## Roy (Sep 23, 2005)

First off...almost any light is better than a stock AA MiniMag! 

Having said that, I think that most of the SF lights are WAY over priced! The G2 is a good buy, but IMHO $150-$200 is way too much for a flashlight. Now if you need a light for work, that could be a different story. There are plenty of good lights out there that cost way less than most of the SF lights. I'd love to drive a JAG but my Dodge Intrepid serves me just fine.....if you get my meaning.


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## BlackDecker (Sep 23, 2005)

Having never owned a SureFire lamp, I can only assume they are a high quality product.

Unless I was in law enforcement and needed the best that money could buy to possibly save my own life, I'll stick with more basic brands.

And like mentioned several times in this thread, virtually ANY flashlight will outperform a [email protected]!

For $10, a River Rock .5watt 2AAA flashlight will knock the socks off a [email protected]


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## boostmiser (Sep 23, 2005)

I asked myself this question when I first started looking at them. The short answer is, yes.
I was a Streamlight guy before I received my first SF. I was also confused as hell about which SF to buy. So I settled on an inexpensive solution. The 6P. I got the light expecting the best. I was a bit underwhelmed when I first go it but the more I used it, the more I could not do without it. The more I loved it. It fits like a glove. It's solid. It's good looking. It's a great light. I choose it over my Strion. I've since bought an A2...though not at retail price. This is my primary light now. This is the one I always go for. Almost like a rechargeable with the regulation chip.


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## daloosh (Sep 24, 2005)

Welcome to CPF firebladz, and why dontcha stay awhile!

There's a lot to learn and see here, so various flashlights may fit the bill for ya, but the short answer is yes, the Surefire is worth it. My fave is the E2e, but start with a G2, and work your way up. Still, don't pass over the many lights you may see commended at CPF, I'm sure one or two or a dozen are perfect for you!

welcome again,
daloosh


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## KevinL (Sep 24, 2005)

greenLED said:


> It all depends on what you'll use the lights for, so don't get carried away by the SF hype. Why buy a Rolls-Royce when a Honda will do just fine for your commute...?
> 
> Sorry, guys, but somebody had to say it.



Naah. Same reason why we use a pile driver to hammer home tiny nails 

You can never be too rich, too fast, or too bright! (isn't that what bwaites said?)


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## ZeissOEM2 (Sep 24, 2005)

edit


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## Firebladz (Sep 24, 2005)

Hey guys:

Thanks for making me feel so welcome...
And for answering my questions...

I picked this name because I ride motorcyclec and I used to ride a honda CBR and they named some of their sportbikes Fireblades...

The main purpose / use for my flashlight is walking my dog at night, sometimes in unlit / wooded areas...
Emergencies, camping / hiking, traveling, in car, etc, etc...

I don't require one for wok but I am pretty bloody tired of cheapo flashlights that never seem to come through for you when you need them the most!

I was considering the 9AN because it's rechargable however with more searching I think I might be leaning towards the U2 ultra...

I was thinking rechargable to help avoid buying batteries all the time...

however I dunno if the U2 ultra will be bright enough?
I know LED lights have a different look, feel and strength about them than incandesent?

It's good to be here, Thanks for making me feel welcome. :rock: 
Firebladz.


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## joema (Sep 24, 2005)

U2 is plenty bright. Although roughly Minimag length, it has DOUBLE the output of a big Mag 3D.

For walking at night a variable output light is important. Otherwise it's just too much light -- almost blinding. Yet you sometimes want full output. Variable output gives you both.

Another benefit of variable output lights is the batteries last much longer. A U2 on low still produces 2 lumens (a good amount of light), yet batteries will last 40 hours!!

If the U2 is too much money, the HDS EDC B42 is $120, less than 1/2 the U2 price yet is very compact and has four output levels.

http://www.batterystation.com/hds-edcflashlights.htm
http://www.hdssystems.com/EdcBasic.html

Since variable output stretches the batteries so much, in many cases (depending on usage) you may not even need rechargeable batteries.

Non-rechargeable 123A lithium batteries are only $1 each from www.batterystation.com. One battery lasts my HDS light weeks despite heavy usage, since I mostly use the lower output levels.

If $120 is too much, at least get a two-stage light with high and low. Examples:

Streamlight TL-2 (about $70):
http://www.flashlightreviews.com/reviews/streamlight_tasklight_2l.htm

Nuwai TM-301X-3 (about $40):
http://www.flashlightreviews.com/reviews/nuwai_tm301x3.htm


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## Ledean (Sep 24, 2005)

An U2 will surely wake up the dog .


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## KevinL (Sep 24, 2005)

And while the Mag starts dimming the moment you hit the switch, the U2's high level stays on full blast due to the regulator. 

To me, the U2's greatest features are the unannounced ones. Why? None of the Surefire lights except their Advanced Rechargeable series are spec'ed for rechargeable use. In other words: NO official support. 

However, the U2's body is wide enough to accept even the biggest rechargeable lithium ion cells in common use today (18650) and has a low-voltage cutout to protect the rechargeables against overdischarge (which means instant death for them). I have reason to believe that this was no accident. It was never made official, but it's good enough for us. Mine's ten months old and has been run on rechargeables after I used up the first set of CR123s that came with it. Carried almost every day of the week, does about every job imaginable. 

And if the rechargeables run out and I need INSTANT juice, I can always pick up a pair of CR123s, load it up and I'm back up at full power. 

Go and get the U2, and never look back. Every time the question comes up for me - what if you could only take one? The U2 is the answer. BLINDINGLY bright at full power, yet easy on the eyes when dialed down. You'll never look at lights the same way again. 

Expensive? Yup. the price is out of this world - I paid nearly full MSRP for it, but put it this way, it was worth every cent.


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## Firebladz (Sep 24, 2005)

I just want something with more throw?
I would like / need to be able to see to about 100 feet...

I like the fact that it's variable light output, I am looking for a very versatile flashlight...
Thats one of the things that drove me to the 9AN was it's duel output... BUT... and althought I am still interested in it... I am frustrated by the fact that a replacement bulb for the 9AN is $34!!!

U2 vs 9AN both have there pros and cons... and NO you little flashaholics I am not / can't afford to just get both at least not right now hehehee... :nana: 


Firebladz.


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## Beretta1526 (Sep 24, 2005)

I still maintain that you should take a good look at the A2, but the U2 is an excellent all-around light. It's my EDC (Every Day Carry), and I seriously don't go anywhere without it, except for the pool. The range is only a few feet less than my L5, and it's got a wider and slightly brighter corona (sidespill) as well as the different levels of brightness.

*EDIT:* ALMOST FORGOT... The U2 will run on Pila 168a batteries for a looooooong time, with almost no noticable change in brightness. That makes it almost the perfect light!


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## Beretta1526 (Sep 24, 2005)

Here's something cool you can do with a U2:


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## Firebladz (Sep 24, 2005)

Hey Baretta can you hook me up with some beamshots from your U2?
what would you say the range of the throw is on the U2?

I'm having a problem finding any that aren't close range...
All the reviews seem to only have them from like 1 meter...

Thanks,
Firebladz.


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## BentHeadTX (Sep 24, 2005)

They are worth the money if you need their capabilities
Personally, I don't own any Surefires but I have used them and they are great lights. Since I use lighting all the time, my lights are NiMH AA powered and since Surefire does not make lights in that configuration, I use other brands. My high output needs are met by "2D Mag" mods running 8 AA battery packs since I have standarized to AA NiMH packs.
If you want a weapon light, get a Surefire and it will give you reliable operation as long as you feed it CR123A batteries. As others have mentioned, you can use rechargable lithium-ion batteries in certain Surefires so they can be fed with less expense. 
The U2 with rechargable Pila cells would be my kind of light. If it is your style depends on your needs and how much you want to spend. At least once you own it, it will become more valuable to you the more you use it.


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## Beretta1526 (Sep 24, 2005)

I can give it a shot later on tonight, possibly (can't promise tonight). I can compare the U2, L5, L4 (L2 is same reflector assy.), and maybe one or two more. I'll try to do some sort of real world situation rather than a wall. I wanted to get a beam shot from the X200B that's on my Beretta 96G-SD as well.



Firebladz said:


> Hey Baretta can you hook me up with some beamshots from your U2?
> what would you say the range of the throw is on the U2?
> 
> I'm having a problem finding any that aren't close range...
> ...


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## Size15's (Sep 24, 2005)

I'd like to see some photos of the X200B mounted if you don't mind...

Cheers!

Al


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## Beretta1526 (Sep 24, 2005)

Here it is, mounted on my Beretta 96G-SD and mounted on my H&K USP-C .40 using the MR08 Adapter:









I can take more pics if necessary...

Here's a shot of the 96G-SD with an X200A on it:






I don't have a "full" shot of the G-SD with the X200B on it, as I had taken the pic to compare to this one to show that the bezel is flush with the slide, whereas the X200(A) sticks out slightly beyond the slide.

I'll take a better shot of it and post in a while...


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## Firebladz (Sep 25, 2005)

Damn Beretta nice collection...

now is it just me or do you really like guns and flashlights or guns with flashlights? LoL... :naughty: 

all I know if I feel really bad for anyone trespassing on your property!  

P.S. I don't think we even have that many guns in alllllllllllll of Canada  

Firebladz.


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## markbUK (Sep 25, 2005)

Lets not forget though that any [email protected] lite is a great starting place to have a go at modding, but even after doing all the one's we've got, it's the SF L1 /E2D or the HDS that gets used most  . 

Mark


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## savumaki (Sep 25, 2005)

Firebladz said:


> Damn Beretta nice collection...
> 
> P.S. I don't think we even have that many guns in alllllllllllll of Canada
> 
> Firebladz.



We probably do (I do a lot of shooting) but we have also learned to keep a low profile lest we stir up another University professor bleeding heart to start another movement to further restrict or confiscate (a very real possibility).

I would imagine that by now you have a basket full of viable options 

Good luck and I'm sure almost any choice will serve you well.

Karl


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## jar3ds (Sep 25, 2005)

oh bro... they are so worth it... if you want something that will never break... then its totally the way to go.... the HA3 coating... etc... buying LED versions so you'll never worry abotu breaking another bulb again... or it burning out at the wrong time...

the first SF i bought was a 6P.... for $50.00USA... i bought it because it was the cheapest besides their CHEAPEST model the G2... i wanted the lockout tail cap etc... however... i took it on one trip and reliaized how much i didn't like it... i wanted longer battery life.... i wanted it to be smaller in diameter... and to have a pocket clip... 

i now have an L2 and love it a lot... however... there will be future investments in SF's and other companies as my needs for light progresses...


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## TKC (Sep 25, 2005)

SureFires ARE definately worth it!!!


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## Outdoors Fanatic (Sep 25, 2005)

I don't think they are worth... They are ridiculously expensive tools, unless your are SWAT or a Special Forces operative, i don't think you need one (collectors and flashalolics are a whole different story, though). Of course they are tough, reliable, bright, high quality and all that, but so are Streamlights and many others, for half the price, if not less!


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## SilverFox (Sep 25, 2005)

This is a very interesting question...

When I walk into the hardware store and see Mag lights selling for $10-$20, I quickly realize that the cost in raw materials must be close to $5-$10.

If you add some fancy machining and a custom lamp assembly, the cost may go up a bit. Adding a circuit board must bring thing up at last $1-$2 as well.

Clearly, we end up paying more than the cost of materials...

I think a better question would be "What makes SureFire lights worth the $$$?"

Tom


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## WDR65 (Sep 25, 2005)

I guess it all depends on how cost is relative to you. I have about six Surefires now, along with several Streamlights and a lot of other lights. The ones I use the most are my Surefires with the one exception being my Streamlight TL-3 b/c all of my Surefire 3 cells are a bit larger. The ones I have though I haven't found another comprable light to replace them. The A2 and my E series are some of the most versatile lights I've ever owned for about any use that I can think of for myself at least at this time. 

There are other lights out there and I'm sure they might do the job just fine, but I guess I'm spoiled now. I think my primary lights for a while to come will be Surefires. So after thinking some more about this, I'd have to say yes.


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## HarryN (Sep 25, 2005)

I used to think that SFs were way overpriced - until I started trying to make lights which are as good / better. Now there are days when I say - "how did they pull it off at that price point ?"


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## Haesslich (Sep 25, 2005)

Don't forget the magic words: "lifetime guarantee". They all carry a lifetime guarantee, so that means you've got support two or three years down the road, rather than the 30-to-90 days that Mag might give you. Plus the machining is better than the Mag, they use HA-III, and they're not mass-manufactured in a Third World country or under similar conditions, means that you shell out quite a bit more for the Surefire... but you get a lot back.


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## this_is_nascar (Sep 25, 2005)

The question of "SureFire worth" could be and has been debated for quite some time. I like SF lights, however I think there are many lights on the market with better "bang for the buck" for the normal-user. My issue with purchasing these high-end lights is (for me), I find that I use them less for fear of losing them or lending them out and never getting them back, etc. For example, I have no issue loaning someone my SL 4AA luxeon lights, but I can't say the same for my SF KL1 or KL4 setup. People continue to tought SF's lifetime warranty, however I can break/damage quite a few SL lights to equal the cost of one SF light of similar performance.

More importantly (I never thought I'd say this), I find myself leaning more and more to the non-CR123 platform, in leiu of AA or AAA lights. I've been pretty successful in finding AA lights that cost less than $50 that meet my every need and have been able to replace hundreds of dollars worth of SF lights. Additionally, these lights actually get used. If I lose one, it's not the end of the world. If I loan one to the guy down the street to work on his car, I don't get nervous 2-weeks later when it still hasn't been returned.


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## enLIGHTenment (Sep 26, 2005)

It's conventional wisdom that SF lights will stand up to more field abuse than most everything else on the market, but is there any actual data to back this up? In the absence of reliability data--or a specific need for a niche light that only SF makes, e.g. M6 HOLA--it seems somewhat imprudent to pay the Surefire premium.


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## Osprey_Guy (Sep 26, 2005)

For me it's pretty much the same sort of answer I give to defend any expensive "luxury" item...

There's little or no rational reasons to pay $30,000+ for a car when you can find one for far less that'll probably deliver similar performace...At the very least they'll all get you from point A to point B.

I have a number of $400+ rollerball pens that are really only as good as the $1.50 refills.

Most of the knives I make are priced well over $500...and yet I have a $39 Kershaw on my bedside table.

Whenever I meet with a graphic design/multimedia client and they want to know what it's going to cost, I'll often respond with "Depends on what you want. Would you like a "log cabin" or a "Taj Majal" or something in between. They will all provide shelter."

I currently own about 2 dozen flashlights...with more on the way. The Brinkman Maxfire that I recently picked up at Target cost me $16.99. It's one heck of a bright flashlight. And I'm sure I'll get use out of it. But there's just something about the Surefire's that makes you want to pick 'em up and use 'em...even in the bright of day.


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## Firebladz (Sep 27, 2005)

Beretta any luck getting those beamshots? 
P.S. I think I am going to go with the SF U2 afterall, just curious where or you did the glowing SF on the clip? :naughty: 

Thanks,
Firebladz.


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## Paul_in_Maryland (Sep 27, 2005)

As for the lifetime guarantee, if I need to replace a flashlight, chances I didn't break it; I lost it.

Not everyone cares about HA-III. I couldn't care less if the finish came off.

The value of Surefire isn't realized until you decide you want to use--or simply try--something different. Then you'll appreciate how Surefire's system approach lets you get there by simply adding a beamshaper or extender, or by using a different lamp, head, or tail.


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## ZeissOEM2 (Sep 27, 2005)

edit


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## Beretta1526 (Sep 27, 2005)

Sorry, no. I've been a little distracted the past few days. I can try to do it tonight. The prep time is actually longer than the time to take the shots... I just have to take all the shots at the same settings.




Firebladz said:


> Beretta any luck getting those beamshots?
> P.S. I think I am going to go with the SF U2 afterall, just curious where or you did the glowing SF on the clip? :naughty:
> 
> Thanks,
> Firebladz.


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## quokked (Sep 27, 2005)

HECK YES!, I haven't tried many flashlights in the past (unlike some of the forum members) I've used and own a 
6D [email protected]
2D [email protected]
Inova X5 
Nuwai Q3 (damn the gadget shop in the UK were selling these so cheap too)
a SF E2e 
Inova X1 

and some other lights like keychain ones that aren't worth mentioning 

But when i got a E2e it beats everything I have hands down, a 6D mag is fun carrying round when you need to threaten kids on a summer camp (was a camp counseller, Long Story) but seems to get a little attention when you try to carry it onto the plane at Heathrow.

If you're looking for something a bit more 'budget' look at the Inova range, a X5 is a good 'wall of light' flashlight and it's one of the best lights i know of that runs on 5MM LEDs (that doesn't look like a crazed sci fi prop http://www.dansdata.com/quickshot026.htm) or some of their other lights.


Still, i'd listen to the sage advice of some of the CPF's and get a G2 to play with before going to a better light, it gives you a good feeling what to expect from the more powerful flashlights that you can get out there and $35US is not much  and it's like that Age old adage 
'You get what you pay for!'

Now if only SF would release a HID light the size of my E2e i'd be set :naughty:


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## RA40 (Sep 27, 2005)

These are also technology driven tools. Each year or so, the next generation offers more. That can be quite a treadmill of expenses. That said, there is great enjoyment from a finely crafted tool and SF's are resoundingly well done. Whether it is worth it, depends on your use.

I'd say buy one or more of the LED models and let the fun begin. If ya don't like it, there is no shortage of buyers here.


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## Glow Bug (Sep 27, 2005)

I think they are the best lights mass produced. I have been fortunate to try many of them and can say all that I have used are very well engineered and built. I prefer the A2 and U2 most of the time. I suspect a great deal of the $$$ goes into R&D. With that said, I feel they are worth it if you want the best. It seems our military feels the same way.


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## HWilliam (Sep 28, 2005)

A Surefire is what it is and costs what it costs.

The question is better put as "What would I be giving up if I spend money on a Surefire?"

Are your kids hungry? Can you survive some time unemployed? Have medical insurance? Etcetra?, ad nauseam.


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## ZeissOEM2 (Sep 29, 2005)

edit


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## rmacias (Oct 1, 2005)

They are definetely worth it!


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## jeep44 (Oct 2, 2005)

Hello

I saw the link to this forum on Fark, and followed it here. I have been a Surefire convert for some time,and I can't say enough good things about them. I carry a G2 everyday for work, just bought a C3 centurion friday,and also just got a SF weaponslight setup for my Remington 870 (the recent unpleasantness in NOLA convinced me to get that)
I am a skilled Tradesman in a large factory. I was the first that I know of to start using a G2 there. A lot of the other guys have persisted in using those cheap, throwaway plastic 2D lights the company issues. we will be called out to find a leak or something inside a dark,oily machine,and they will be peering around with a tepid puddle of pale yellow light-I've seen guys turn their light around to see if it is actually on! Then I break out the Surefire,and start making converts.
My first SF was a Z2. When my son (a Marine) was preparing to go to Iraq last Dec., his batallion load list specified SF,so I gave him mine. While over there,he was involved in nighttime vehicle roadblocks,so he definitely needed a good light! I sent him a G2 in desert tan,along with red and IR filters during his tour,also. It is always good to have a backup. For his return to Iraq in Jan, he is talking about getting a SF weapon-mounted light for his M4. I'm sure I will be getting that for him, as I want him to be carrying the best possible stuff.
Anyway,to end this long rant, Yes! I think SF is worth every penny,but buying that G2 is a slippery slope that will lead you to buying more and more SF stuff.:laughing:


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## Grox (Oct 2, 2005)

jeep44, let me be the first to welcome you to CPF, why dontcha stay a while. 

I for one consider surefire fit, finish, quality and warranty to be worth the money. I think that supporting American manufacturing and R&D is also another bonus (even though I'm Australian).


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## jeep44 (Oct 2, 2005)

Thank you. Being American-made is a big consideration with me,too. I really resent the overwhelming flood of crap from China,and in everything I buy, I try to buy American, even though it seems to be a losing battle. I'm sure the situation is the same in Australia.


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## Grox (Oct 2, 2005)

To be fair, some of the stuff from China is good. But I agree with you that a lot of the stuff coming out of China is of sub-par quality.

Back on topic, I love the way SFs feel in the hand - that sturdy, solid feel can't be beat. The attention to detail is superb - and the reliability is pretty good too. I feel confidant that when I hit the switch that a light is going to come on.


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## weaponlight (Oct 2, 2005)

Some people have alot of inexpensive things. I have only a few possesions. 

The things I spend my money on have to be rugged, versitile, functional, and backed up by excellent service by the manufacturer. 

I am a Paratrooper in the Army, so my gear gets used hard. I used to EDC a Mini Mag, with one in each vehicle. Too many times I picked it up to find the batteries melted down and the light ruined, or it just did not really perform. I purchased a G2 because the 123's were originally designed to work, and be left in, delicate cameras for long periods of time. No more melt down.

The old Mini Mag could not even compare to the G2. The G2 is just a much more versitile tool, and with a drop in 3 watt LED you get long run time along with an excellent close to medium range beam.

As far as the other posts regarding how tough a surefire really is: I have converted many Soldiers to Surefire owners, and try to stress lanyard use. However an officer in my section was using an E1e with red filter to read an situation report in the back of a 5 ton truck. The truck hit a bump and he dropped the light which went over the side and onto the asphault at 40 MPH. 

Lucky for him, we were in a pretty quiet area so we could stop. Sometimes an impact like that will break the filiment in the lamp assembly, but it was easy to go back and recover the light, because it lay there happily emitting red light through its filter on the side of the road. 

I have several Surefires, and I believe that they are worth evrey penny I spent on them. I would recommend the A2 as the best all around EDC light. If thats too expensive get a G2, E2e or E2d.


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## square11098 (Oct 3, 2005)

I just joined a few minutes ago and I must say that this is one very informative site. I've been meaning to buy a higher-end flashlight for more than a year already and I think I'm closer to buying a Surefire now than ever before. Before I was looking at Streamlight's 4AA 7-LED setup since I found Surefires to be too expensive. I live here in the Philippines so I had to research who the local distributor was for Surefires (if any). Much to my surprise there was a distributor and they told me which shops sold Surefires. The prices here are more expensive obviously but if I count delivery charges if I had them shipped from the US, then the local prices are quite reasonable.

After reading all these replies, I am now more convinced to get my first Surefire - a G2 Nitrolon. There are a lot of cheap China-made multi-LED and LUXEON LED models here but I'd rather splurge a little and invest in a flashlight that will last.

Keep the replies coming fellas...hopefully I won't get too addicted to this "enlightening" hobby.


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## daloosh (Oct 4, 2005)

Welcome to CPF square11098, and why dontcha stay awhile!
Get that G2, you will not be disappointed! The new G2s have the lockout tailcap, which is a nice addition. Don't forget to follow that up with an E2e. Also, perhaps you can hook up with some of our members in the Phillippines to see some other cool lites!
welcome again,
daloosh


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## square11098 (Oct 4, 2005)

Thanks Daloosh!

One of the CPF members from the Philippines already got in touch with me - he's getting an M6! Damn, how I wish!

If Surefire keeps their trend of making awesome products, maybe one day we'll see a G2 sized torch with the power of an M6!


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## daloosh (Oct 4, 2005)

Now that's a light, the M6! Great heft in the hand, real bright beam, and that sucking sound is the money he'll be spending on 123s to feed that thing! 
daloosh


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## Grox (Oct 4, 2005)

Hey, firebladz, did you end up getting a SF?


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## Emilion (Oct 4, 2005)

HA-III doesn't worth the $$$, and the LAs are expensive when compare to ..lets say, streamlight's TL2/3. Reliability is not an issue, cos the much cheaper Streamlights TL2 , Inova T3 works fine anytime you need it. 

So why Surefire?
Simply because I like it. I like how it looks, reliable, and lifetime warranty. I know there is not much chance that I'll get to the warranty right with SF, but at least, my light has a warranty.

I've asked SF : Will the warranty covers if I use the light as a defensive tool and it breaks? The answer is YES. 

(Hmmm..., how about using the L5 as a hammer? )

Furthermore, the interchangeable abilty of SF lights is fun.


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## Firebladz (Oct 4, 2005)

Who would have thought that one simple little question qould have received so much attention? LoL... However, I am asking myself now if surefires really are worth money for example...

I was looking at Inova lights and they seem fairly comparable for a fraction of the cost!

And almost all the Inova light have received 5 stars from flashlightreviews.com 

So how can inova offer a premium LED, weather proof, aluminum, HAIII coated, regulated, good optics, lightweight, powerful light for roughly a third or even quarter the price of most SF's??? :huh2: 

Firebladz.


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## Haesslich (Oct 4, 2005)

Firebladz said:


> Who would have thought that one simple little question qould have received so much attention? LoL... However, I am asking myself now if surefires really are worth money for example...
> 
> I was looking at Inova lights and they seem fairly comparable for a fraction of the cost!
> 
> ...



They're comparable in the way that a Mini Maglight is comparable with a Streamlight TL-3; they'll both light things up at close range, but beyond that it's hard to compare them in terms of features and performance. The TL-3 puts out more light, is more powerful, and costs a heck of a lot more than the Maglight does... but both will do the job pretty well if you're only shining it at a target 5-6 inches away. 

The Inovas use LuxI's or maybe LuxIII's in most of their lights, and I've personally found their performance to be somewhat lacking, perhaps due to the Luxeon in question or the optics which put a bright spot out at a distance... though I find a Scorpion LED to be more useful overall, in its output, even if it costs a bit more.

The Surefires tend to be more expensive due to labor costs, materials costs, and the lifetime service that the company says it puts behind them. And I've yet to see an Inova with a LuxV in it, much less anything that has the sheer luminous output of a L5, L2, or U2. 

I need to do a search here to see if anyone's compared a KL1 4th Gen with the Inova T1, which is roughly in the same size and battery configuration category.


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## Sixpointone (Oct 4, 2005)

In my opinion, YES, Surefire is absolutely worth the money.


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## Grox (Oct 6, 2005)

Inovas are good lights in their own right. But if you get an inova there will always be that niggling "what if" in the back of your mind. Bear in mind inova's inflated lumen rating when buying them. 

Honestly, once you've got your first SF you'll see what we're talking about. You could try B/S/T here and get a used light. If you don't like it you can just resell it here, probably for what you bought it for.


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## TORCH_BOY (Oct 6, 2005)

If you have got the money they are,
If you haven't some of the other lights
come very close for a lot less Bucks


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## stogiez (Oct 6, 2005)

Hi all,

I too am new to the enlightened world of illumination tools. I'm starting with a SL Scorpion (incan), PT Surge, and a SF G2. I researched extensively to find what I perceive are the better choices for the price & size.

I can only offer an opinion on the G2. I'd pass on it.

I tested them out in the Texas plains at night, in the middle of a 7,000 acre ranch, without any light pollution whatsoever. My buddies and I were on a dove hunt and we waited around until dark to fire up the torches and see what's what. Here are my informal observations:

SL Scorpion - liked it alot. Liked the adjustable beam, for reaching out to about 25-30 yards. Didn't care for the rubber cover. It "hangs up" on pockets. Wonder how long the cover will last before the bottom cuts out and exposes the switch? Lamp is easy to change. Just make sure your work surface is close to you when you change the lamp, because if you drop it, good luck. Those lamps are tiny. But they work well.

PT Surge - The plastic was a bit too slick and it was kinda hard to control at times. Switch is kinda finicky. Battery carrier came unseated a couple of times and would not function. Is this unusual? Loved the beam. Size was good, especially for the amount of light it generates. Didn't have to change the lamp. Loved the water resistant rating, as I do occasional scuba.

SF G2 - Light was equal to the others. Be careful if you put it in your back pocket. You can activate the thumb button, and you will start to get a "warming" sensation. It will get VERY warm. Liked the slick plastic, but I don't think it would just "fall out" of a pocket. I found out that the lamp itself cannot be replaced. You must replace the ENTIRE lamp assembly. I called SF and they confirmed. Why would I need to replace the reflector when only the lamp is burned out? SF can give me all the excuses they want, (and they did) but I still don't get it. Maybe later I will. To me, this increases the ownership costs of this light significantly.

When comparing it to the SL Scorpion, the G2 is not worth the money. Yes, there are issues with the Scorp, but I can take off the rubber sleeve. I'd even recommend the Surge over the G2, because of the costs associated with the lamp assembly.


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## beezaur (Oct 6, 2005)

stogiez said:


> I found out that the lamp itself cannot be replaced. You must replace the ENTIRE lamp assembly. . . . Why would I need to replace the reflector when only the lamp is burned out?



I used to have a 3P (1-cell version of 6P) that was retired for that reason. I dropped it and wrecked the bulb. At the time, $45 or whatever for the light was a major expendature. I was paying the high grocery store price for batteries. Even though a battery lasted me around 3 months, the lamp assembly replacement was enough to retire the light.

I don't know, but I would guess they do it that way to protect the quality of the beam put out by the light, and the reliability of the bulb. True, you could replace only the bulb. But then you would have to touch the glass, making it more prone to failure, and focus might not be guaranteed.

So they force you to buy the whole thing, which forces you to have a certain level of quality and reliability whether you want it or not. I'm not sure I agree with it either, but there we are. I don't think they do it that way just to make more money on relfectors. It was a decision SureFire made about what their customers will put up with. I don't feel it was a bad decision, just an inconvenient one.

About the soft rubber on the Scorpion, my impression with that light is that neither the rubber nor the switch is very durable. It is a good, average-quality light, but things like that keep it from being exceptional.

They do make you pay for it, but you get "exceptional" with SureFire.

Scott


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## Firebladz (Oct 6, 2005)

TORCH_BOY said:


> If you have got the money they are,
> If you haven't some of the other lights
> come very close for a lot less Bucks


 
See this is what I am talking about...
Other lights come very close for a lot less bucks... YES exactly their price tags don't come close...
So is surefire really worth the money say compared to an inova that cost a quarter of the price?
Are surefires really worth 3 and 4 times as much as the competitors lights?:candle: 

Firebladz.


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## kaseri (Oct 6, 2005)

cslinger said:


> Course the G2 will most likely act like a gateway drug.



Indeed the G2 is! Thats what I started with and I have gone through so many lights it's crazy. My favorite light is my SF M6


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## stogiez (Oct 6, 2005)

Firebladz said:


> See this is what I am talking about...
> Other lights come very close for a lot less bucks... YES exactly their price tags don't come close...
> So is surefire really worth the money say compared to an inova that cost a quarter of the price?
> Are surefires really worth 3 and 4 times as much as the competitors lights?:candle:
> ...


 
I guess I'm just going on the fact that I bought a G2 for $30 at my local Bass Pro Shop. I haven't seen any comparable Inovas at that price. So for the $30-$40 range, get something other than a G2. Because with one replacement lamp assembly, it shoots the price up to the $55-$65 range.


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## xochi (Oct 6, 2005)

Surefires are excellent flashlights but there are MUCH better values out there and if you are just getting into flashlights then enjoy the low price 'CRACK' while it will still get you off. 

Streamlight, inova, rock river, nuwai are all generally better values than Surefire.

Surefire lights are generally better than all of the above but they aren't at all shy about asking you to pay quite a bit extra for that superiority. I've owned 2 l4's and an A2 and was very happy with each of them but I've also had just as good of an experience owning much less expensive lights. 

I was just in a store and was either going to purchase a G2 for 29.99 or a Streamlight propolymer 4aa for 19.99. I went for the propolymer because it's just as tough and likely just as bright but runs on AA's (I've got lots of 123's in the house but I was thinking of longer term power outages ) and was cheaper. The G2 is much smaller though and more pocketable. 

You can't go wrong buying a surefire though.


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## cy (Oct 6, 2005)

part of the engineering that makes surefire is the bulb assembly. in particular P60 series bulbs are designed to survive gunfire. 

look carefully at how P60 lamp is constructed. notice how ground wire is tack welded to spring, insuring a solid conection. 

two layers of springs combined with M2 head suspends bulb assembly and batteries. allowing Surefire to survive shock while mounted as a weapons light.

with G2 what you have is a low cost light with surefire quality beam. 

note while replacement costs are high for P60 bulbs. if you are going to have problems with the bulb. probably will be within first few minutes of burntime. 

I've never had a surefire bulb fail with exception of two brand new lights burning out. called surefire about problem and they promptly sent a replacement. 

that's customer service!


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## daloosh (Oct 6, 2005)

Hey Stogiez, welcome to CPF, and why dontcha stay awhile!

Your story is refreshing, thanks! It's funny, I started with a SL Scorpion as well, and liked it a lot. But instead of a G2, I started also with an E2e, and loved it more than the Scorpion, which rapidly became a backup light, then desk drawer light.

The E2e is small and bright and modular and better than the Scorp in many ways, so I decided I could live with lamp assemblies, instead of pulling out the the little bulb in the Streamlight. And I never looked back.

However, you started with the G2, which of course is the low end for Surefire, and I can see and identify with your frustration over that quite expensive LA! The G2 was one of my last-bought Surefires, and I just wanted to see what it was like. I think it I got it first, I might very well have the same feelings about SF. I appreciate the wakeup call!

On the other hand, SF makes some exceptional lighting instruments, so I hope as you jump into this hobby, keep an open mind and try some more out!

welcome again,
daloosh


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## Dabbler (Oct 6, 2005)

I dropped a 3p a while back and the light went out. Recently I called Surefire and discovered the bad news, lamp assembly required! I got a lot of use out of the light, way beyond the warranty period. So now I'm debating wether to replace the assembly or purchase another light such as Scorpion or G2. I really don't want to spend much more than that since I have better places to invest my meager earnings, like insulin for my diabetic cat 

Any suggestions would be appreciated comparing the 3P to others. Should I switch or sink $30 bucks into another assembly?

Thanks much, love reading the tales of adventures in the dark with all this neat hardware.


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## joema (Oct 6, 2005)

stogiez said: "Scorpion - liked it alot....Didn't care for the rubber cover. It "hangs up" on pockets. Wonder how long the cover will last before the bottom cuts out and exposes the switch?...PT Surge - ...Battery carrier came unseated a couple of times...Is this unusual? Loved the beam...there are issues with the Scorp, but I can take off the rubber sleeve. I'd even recommend the Surge over the G2, because of the costs associated with the lamp assembly."

Stogiez, thanks for the nice review.

I've had the Scorpion (incandescent & LED versions), PT Surge, and SL TL-3.

I personally didn't have problems with the Scorpion rubber handle hanging up on clothing, but I see how that's possible.

If you like the Scorpion except for that, consider the SL TL-2, which has similar output/throw but without the rubber handle. Similar but more power is the TL-3.

The PT Surge is very impressive, but overall I wouldn't recommend it. Just too many batteries (8 AAs), battery carrier too difficult, short run time. For people wanting that output, I'd recommend the SF G2, SF 6P, SL TL-2, SL TL-3, SL Scorpion, or Pelican M6. The Surge is dive-rated, however.


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## rcashel11 (Oct 6, 2005)

I, too, started off with a SL Scorpion and thought it a great light at the time. Last week I bought my first SureFire, the E2e, and it's my new EDC light. The Scorpion is now in my desk drawer at home. 

Got the G2 two days ago. The P60 LA appears less fragile than the bulb for the Scorpion though the higher cost does give me pause. Most likely, I'll give the G2 to my brother like I'd intended to when I bought it.


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## Robt (Oct 6, 2005)

Hey Dudes. I wonder if anybody "out there" can tell me where i can get a "SUREFIRE" flashlight at a cheaper price than what Craig Johnson posts at his LED Museum website.. Yikes, the prices Craig mentions is enuff to scare me away. Is there other flashlights with those LED's or LUXEON bulbs that are at least 50% cheaper than the "Surefire" brand. ??? Maybe I should email Craig Johnson. HEY CRAIG!!! If yer out there and read this, email me please!!!! thanx dudes..


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## Somy Nex (Oct 6, 2005)

Well... depending on which SF light you have settled on, there are quite a few places you can try. The first place I'd look would be the B/S/T section right here (link from the main forum). oldgrandpajack, Sigman come to mind first, but i'm new too and i'm sure there are quite a few more selling SF lights there, almost all for pretty nice prices.

Edit: Also check out the dealers thread, though the lights I see here are more from other brands and less SF. some nice deals though =)

Also take a look at this thread https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/92307 if you are interested in the SF A2 Aviator, although reports have been on & off, it seems that Supreme Co. does listen to feedback and my experience with them has been great. It's a great deal on the A2, although their stocks must be running pretty low by now.

Also, in the Group Buy section, there's a great deal going on SF lights (and possibly more?) from Mike from OpticsHQ, look for details on the thread here.


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## TonkinWarrior (Oct 7, 2005)

I own a handful of Surefires ... along with Inovas, Streamlights, Pelicans, Nuwais, and Mags. 

While the non-Surefires are generally good "values," I've yet to find ANY non-SF brand that consistently EXCEDES EXPECTATIONS like Surefires. Oh, the others generally do fine for a while, but then ya start to notice little shortcomings when the "new" wears off. 

OTOH, the Surefires never seem to wilt... or reveal another side to their character that makes you wish you'd maybe spent a few more $$ for a light that just plain inspires no-sweat confidence, night after night. 

Maybe its just the fact that Surefire consistently UNDERSTATES their beam potency and runtimes. Or the fact that SF's after-sale customer service (with occasional wrinkles) still leads the pack. Or the fact that elite military and LEO units (who really do their homework) always want SF's (when budgets permit). 

Cost IS a key Buy-Decision element for most of us. However, INITIAL cost is a very different animal than LONG-TERM/REAL WORLD cost... where the performance-vs.-value equation should also reflect product failure under the stressful and extreme conditions on the Mean Streets and Battlefields. However, I'm assuming here that you buy your lights for tasks beyond dazzling friends with interior beam-shots.

Here's one historic example of this performance-value equation.

When the vaunted Colt M-16 rifle first entered the U.S. military arsenal back in Vietnam, it had many failures in the field (jungles). Failures that cost good lives. Why? Because Pentagon bean-counters decided that they could save about $3.98 per rifle by eliminating the original designer's specified chrome-plated chamber/bore... a little feature which greatly facilitated cleaning... AND preventing jams. The Pentagon's original decision saved Million$. It also got American troops killed and undermined confidence in their main battle weapon. Now, flash-forward a couple decades. With extensive field lessons plus continuous engineering refinements, the M-16 evolved into great/reliable rifle. It's cost went up. too.

The Surefires are like that. You certainly DO pay for a ton of research, engineering, and field-testing refinements with their lights... pricey "development" stuff that their competitors aren't necessarily burdened by. For the average consumer who might only burn his 1 or 2 flashlights a few hours per year -- under nice, domestically-ideal conditions -- it's hard to see the value of SF's twice-the-cost products. However, re-write that consumer's 
"field test" script to include a bunch of nasty little Murphy's Law (everything goes wrong) life-or-death scenarios... and he'll soon scream for something a helluva lot better... at ANY cost.

I've been there, seen the elephant, and I don't ever want to have any doubts about my survival gear when the bell rings the next time. I'm not selling my other lights, because they're a lot of fun to play with. And most of 'em make good back-ups... to my Surefires.


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## Phredd (Oct 8, 2005)

*Don't buy a Surefire!*

I bought an E1 a couple years ago. I loved it so much, I wanted more - I bought an E2. Still not enough - I bought an Aviator. I even tried a U2 not too long ago - awesome! I finally sold the E1 and E2. But, I can't give up the Aviator. I'm happy with just one for now, but I still go back occasionally to see the other lights they have.

Their design and craftsmanship are exceptional. And they're very robust. Not that I've tried, but I doubt I have anything in my house, including my car, that could destroy a Surefire. Besides admiring the flashlight, it's nice to know that it will always work when I need it to.

Phredd


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## Longbow (Oct 9, 2005)

At one time Surefires were worth the buck. But today it's questionable.


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## lightplay22 (Oct 9, 2005)

I think surefires are worth it if it meets the need you have for the light. My first surefire was an e1 that I bought on clearance about 4 years ago for $40.00. This light has went with me 7 days a week untill last week when I recieved my HDS basic 42. The e1 never failed me in those years and I figure $10.00 a year is cheap for faultless service of a tool. (Really a great light!)

My A2 was $145.00 (a lot) but when I think of a tool that works perfectly for my needs that may last 10, 15, 20 years or more, the high price doesen't seem so high to me.

The HDS was also expensive but in ten years if it is still in service to me, I figure $12.50 or so per year is not much for such a capable and dependable light that meets my needs.

My g2's sit quietly for emergency use, something that all my other alkaline powered lights proved unreliable at. Nothing like a good 3d mag that won't shine when you need it and then requires a pipe wrench to get the end cap off! Love those lithiums!


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## beavo451 (Oct 9, 2005)

I think Surefires are still worth it if you have a use for them (and sometimes if you don't). I have had an E2 Executive in Satin Gray for roughly 4 years that has been with me everywhere for those four years. I have not had a single failure with it. It has been dropped, kicked, thrown, submerged, washed, made fun of for its size, crushed, and used as a wedge to hold something open. Cosmetically, there are a lot of little scratches here and there and there is also a barely noticeable dent on the bezel that came from a 6 foot drop onto concrete. The checkering on rubber button is almost gone. I probably went through two boxes of batteries a year. But, I have definitely gotten my worth of $70 (and the cost of batteries) out of that light and have just recently purchased the Black A2 to replace it as an EDC. But, it still continues on as an EDC with my girlfriend (along with a new lamp). If I added up the number of times that something happened to it that would break a $5 -$20 lesser flashlight, the cost would be more than $70. I believe in buying quality once rather than having to buy something cheap over and over again. The initial price may be high, but the rewards pay off in the long run of reliability and security.


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## Bravo25 (Oct 9, 2005)

Suffice it to say I hope they are worth it, as many of them as I own that is.


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## Double_A (Oct 10, 2005)

Thank you! thank you!! thank you!!!

For the life of me I can't understand why more people don't seem to recognize that the lamp assembly IS THE FLASHLIGHT !

The Lamp Assembly is the heart, it is the light engine for the flashlight everything thing else is there to help it do it's job of making light!

Having said that I never recommend a Sure Fire as the "first" quality light to a person that doesn't need a professional flashlight. 

I would recommend a Streamlight model instead, it will do the job for 99% of people.



cy said:


> part of the engineering that makes surefire is the bulb assembly. in particular P60 series bulbs are designed to survive gunfire.
> 
> look carefully at how P60 lamp is constructed. notice how ground wire is tack welded to spring, insuring a solid conection.
> 
> ...


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## Firebladz (Oct 13, 2005)

Longbow said:


> At one time Surefires were worth the buck. But today it's questionable.


 
Agreed...

I see way to many people sending their lights in for warranty work, even new out of the box... Where is the quality control?

I mean these lights are mostly designed for LEOs and military and with their price tags there just shouldn't be any issues what so ever out of the box...

I am NOT bashing surefire but I just think people should expect more and surefire should expect more fom themself...

I mean they are supposed to be the top dog the best of the best?

Firebladz.


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## Size15's (Oct 13, 2005)

I think we see issues with SureFires highlighted more so then other brands.
The expection of performance is greater and so it is considered worth drawing attention to issues.

Recently it appears to me that Streamlights have had quite a lot of issues highlighted.

I find it difficult to make "judgements" of issues because the data is so incomplete. Perhaps we should generate data?
An online form could be created that can be used to gather data on the flashlights we own and how much we use each one, including "failure" or "issue" reports.

Al


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## beezaur (Oct 13, 2005)

Firebladz said:


> I see way to many people sending their lights in for warranty work, even new out of the box... Where is the quality control? . . .



This is not something that makes me happy either.

However, you have to remember that the 6P and its cousins are vastly simpler in construction than something like an L2 or A2. You are more likely to get "materials and workmanship" issues straight from the factory than with the dirt-simple 6P.

From a user's point of view, you should run a few sets of batteries through a light before you put in a positions where it needs to be trusted. It is also a good idea to "field strip" your complicated little device every so often -- whether a SureFire or some other brand -- and make sure everything is clean and in good working order.

I don't worry about issues with new lights. That is just a fact of life with manufacturing. Some finite percentage of products will come off the line flawed. It happens with all brands. SureFire is good for it, so it shouldn't be more than a temporary inconvenience.

The things that worry me are flaws that affect the light mid-life. If I drop a light and the bulb breaks, OK. I replace the bulb (or lamp assembly). But if I drop it and the bulb rattles around between the reflector and the lens where I can't get it out, NOT OK. That is a design issue that gets the light instantly retired. Likewise with a switch or LED that fails after routine use.

What I am saying is that you get a better design with SureFire. That is where you get true reliability -- having a design that will withstand things that you haven't even thought of, but the design team did. For me, that is where SureFires are worth the money.

Scott


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## beavo451 (Oct 13, 2005)

Also, since there are more and more Surefires, you will hear more about their failings than the success. Like Bushmaster in the firearms world. You hear more Bushmaster failings than any other company (other than Colt), but Bushmaster produces a vastly larger number of rifles than the competition (RRA, Olympic, DPMS, etc.). Surefire is also widely known and thus you hear more discussion about Surefire as well.


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## TonkinWarrior (Oct 13, 2005)

There's no doubt that Surefire has many excellent "value" competitors. In my experience, Inova, Streamlight, and Princeton Tec readily come to mind as great Bang For The Buck flashlights. The tough Inova T2 ($45) and little PTec Attitude ($10-15) may be the biggest "sleeper" values anywhere.

That said, however, the one huge area where Surefire consistently out-performs the competition is in EXCEDING EXPECTATIONS. While just about every other manufacturer EXAGGERATES their lights' actual performance ratings (lumen output, runtime, beam quality, etc.), Surefire does NOT exaggerate.

Stories of knowledgeable Surefire owners reporting performance BEYOND the "advertised" stats are legion here in CPF world. Can you say this about other brands? Where most manufacturers' numbers are often inflated, or based upon the first few minutes of a new/cherry-picked example in a dirt-free lab-test, SF's "numbers" seem to be more like real-world/performance average stats after being "broken-in" during grueling field tests run by hard-eyed military weapons systems evaluators.

Here's my own illustrative Surefire story. My KL1 LED head arrived with a minor flaw in its pyrex lense late last year. I sent it back to Surefire. They replaced it with a new -- and better -- KL1 that must be on steroids! Its brightness appears noticeably beyond that of others I've seen, and it's certainly better than the advertised numbers. That tells me their engineering dept. is refreshingly superior to their advertising group -- and that's absolutely unique in today's over-hyped marketplace. 

A product that consistently delivers on -- or excedes -- its manufacturer's promises is a product to be cherished. And that "worth" is hard to put a price on -- especially in "crunch-time."


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## beavo451 (Oct 13, 2005)

Well said. If I was forced to choose a light to rely on (SHTF or any other situation), it would be Surefire.


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## weaponlight (Oct 13, 2005)

Firebladz said:


> Agreed...
> 
> I see way to many people sending their lights in for warranty work, even new out of the box... Where is the quality control?
> 
> ...



Huh? What Surefire lights are you using? I have literally bet my life on several of them in Iraq. In what I am currently doing, you have to 'Own the Night'. 

My M 500 A Weaponlight has never let me down from caves in Afghanistan to night urban ops in Iraq. Its been banged around, soaking wet, covered with dirt, 120 degree days, through a few lamp assemblies and countless 123's, but never had a problem.

My experiance is when you do have a problem, Surefire does all they can to make it right. The incan on my A2 got quirkey and I sent it in. I forgot to take off the sand scratched F05 red filter that was on it. When the light came back from Surefire, there was a box of 123's and a NEW F05 gratis.

See any other lights in my signature?


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## TheFlash (Oct 13, 2005)

This is going to sound like a testimonial for Surefire, but I have to emphatically say first, “Yes! Surefires are worth it!”

This past summer (in August), I was on a houseboat trip on Lake Powell in Arizona/Utah. We had our 60 foot long houseboat anchored to the shore with four sturdy, metal land anchors and heavy nylon ropes. During the evening, around 8PM, a storm passed through the area kicking up some fierce winds and placing a lot of strain on the ropes and anchors. By 9PM, two of the anchors, both on the starboard side of the boat, gave it up and tore loose. Immediately, the boat started moving and thrashing. Everyone on the boat jumped up and started moving to get the boat under control.
A few people grabbed the feeble, old-fashioned flashlights which were on board, while I raced to my backpack and grabbed both my Surefire G2 and my Surefire L4 and headed outside.
No one really wanted to be outside because the fierce winds were picking up the sand from the surrounding sandstone cliffs and whipping it into the air. Everyone who was outside was being abraded by the winds and flying sand. Our eyes were squinted against the flying sand and we were chewing grit, but the boat had to be re-anchored immediately!
The people who had grabbed the old-fashioned flashlights from the houseboat had them on, but you couldn’t even really see that the lights were on. They projected feeble pools of amber light…
I immediately turned on my G2 and gave it to a friend who directed the powerful beam onto the shore and on one of the teams of people who were pounding in one of the land anchors to get the boat under control. Then, with my L4, I provided light to the entire area. That L4 and its LED provided a beam that was easily powerful enough to light up the entire shore area and enabled the remaining crew to see what they were doing and hammer in the other land anchor.

When the boat was secured and all came back on board, everyone was asking me about those two flashlights we used. They were all impressed with the power of the beams and how easily the re-anchoring was accomplished with the Surefires’ bright light projection.

Even if we could not have re-anchored the boat quickly, I still felt secure that we could make it through that little emergency. This was because in my backpack, I had 4 extra CR123 batteries, just in case more light time is ever needed.

That is only one of the very few times when Surefires have really saved the day (or night).

My recommendation: Get the G2 first and go from there…

Regards,
Mike


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## vtunderground (Oct 13, 2005)

IMHO, no, Surefire's are not worth the money. My LEAST reliable flashlight is my E2e (bulb assembly falls out and breaks during battery changes, clickie switch occasionally stops working). For the same money I bought a Pelican M6 LED HA-III, which is brighter (brighter spill and longer throw), has a Luxeon III LED, regulation, longer battery life, and is of comparable quality. I have heavily used and abused the Pelican, but haven't had a single problem.


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## Haesslich (Oct 14, 2005)

vtunderground said:


> IMHO, no, Surefire's are not worth the money. My LEAST reliable flashlight is my E2e (bulb assembly falls out and breaks during battery changes, clickie switch occasionally stops working). For the same money I bought a Pelican M6 LED HA-III, which is brighter (brighter spill and longer throw), has a Luxeon III LED, regulation, longer battery life, and is of comparable quality. I have heavily used and abused the Pelican, but haven't had a single problem.



Is this a fair comparison? You're comparing a relatively fragile incandescent with a 'bombproof' LED - it's like complaining about how fragile a Chinese made car is next to an IFV, though the switch I would have sent back to Surefire ages ago as a genuine warantee issue which would let you take advantage of the lifetime guarantee they offer. I haven't heard too much about the switches breaking otherwise - for the most part, they seem reliable.

Still, YMMV - some people swear by Princeton Tec, for example.


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## TonkinWarrior (Oct 14, 2005)

Mike/TheFlash: 
That's a great story. Send it in to Surefire. Betcha they'll print it on their website's "true stories" page.

VTunderground (Go, Hokies!):
I agree that Pelican's are generally bullet-proof and good values. My own M6 incan has served me well. However, as Haesslich points out, your SF E2e incan/PM6 LED comparo is probably a stretch... and it may actually help make the case FOR premium lights like Surefire. Here's why...

Check the FlashLightReviews.com runtime chart for the PM6 LED. It hits 75% at 1 hr., and 50% at 2 hours. Oh, it has a nice long "tail" of marginal light, but that tail's light is often pretty useless in "crunch" time. 

Now, if you'd bought a KL1 LED head for your E2 (I have), you'd get the exact same output (Throw/Spill) as your PM6 LED -- BUT FOR NEARLY 3 HOURS, FLAT-AND-LEVEL! Not declining swiftly after 1 hr. like your Pelican. (See FLReviews runtime graph re KL1, also.)

You're correct that the E2, like many incans, often have bulb/lamp issues that require special attention. However, if your Peli M6 LED craps out when you're spelunking a quarter mile underground -- and then you discover ya lost your back-up light and spare batteries -- I betcha you'd pay a helluva lot more than the E2/KL1 LED combo's cost (about twice the Pelican's cost) to have one right there in your hand! 

The damning thing (at least for me) about Pelican and others, is their inflated and misleading runtime claims. They claim mega hours of light. Technically true... but practical lies. 

We all place our bets in life's great lottery...


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## jbrown50 (Oct 14, 2005)

I'd say yes, they are worth it.

I bought a G2 for $27 from my local gun shop and it has the LOTC. For a "cheap" Flashlight it is very well made, durable, reliable and very bright. I keep it in a nylon belt pouch on my belt all day long and use it regularly.

I previously carried a Streamlight Scorpion with the adjustable head, always on button feature and aluminum body with rubber grip. Nice light for the price. Problem is that it would sometimes kill brand new 123s right after installation and testing. Finally the flimsily attached spring came loose from the switch head and from that point on it would stay on constantly




. 

Streamlight has the same lifetime warranty as Surefire and I sent it off to Streamlight for repair. The point is that a warranty does little good if the light comes up dead when I need it the most.

Get a G2 and don't look back.


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## vtunderground (Oct 14, 2005)

Haesslich: No, it's not a fair comparison, because the M6 LED HA-III is such a better value  I made the comparison because they both cost around $100.

TonkinWarrior: That runtime chart is for the unregulated PM6 LED. I would LOVE to see a runtime chart for the regulated PM6 HA-III... I believe that mine drops out of regulation sooner than the three hours of the KL1, but it'd be interesting to see how flat the regulation is.


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## beavo451 (Oct 14, 2005)

vtunderground said:


> Haesslich: No, it's not a fair comparison, because the M6 LED HA-III is such a better value  I made the comparison because they both cost around $100.
> 
> TonkinWarrior: That runtime chart is for the unregulated PM6 LED. I would LOVE to see a runtime chart for the regulated PM6 HA-III... I believe that mine drops out of regulation sooner than the three hours of the KL1, but it'd be interesting to see how flat the regulation is.


 
For fair comparision, you should compare it to the E2L. At least then they are both LED and both can be had for around $100.


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## sween1911 (Oct 14, 2005)

It's like any other high-end product. Sometimes, it's just the joy of having something so well engineered and tough and cool. Something that you can stick in your pocket and know that people are the top of the food chain like military and law enforcement personnel are using the same stuff. 

Would it be "worth" it to track down an original Emerson CQC6 and pay 2-grand? Is it "better" than a $100 production knife? Does it cut better?

I think that Surefire lights are actually WORTH it. They are worth saving up for and worth ordering and worth having. BUT not just as a flashlight. As a flashlight, they are not worth anything more a similar light that is bright and durable and dependable. They are worth it as a SUREFIRE. As an item that is just cool. Fun to have. Engineered to the Nth degree. Fun to reward yourself with when you get a bonus at work, or put in some overtime, or for the holidays when you've been a good boy or girl. They are serious equipment, fun to accessorize, but also fun to take to the range, serious enough to depend on when you need to check out that noise in the night, or find that lost person in the woods, or just find your car keys in the sofa cusions.

To me, nothing beats a Maglite for simple bare bones durability, availability, value, battery cost and availability, spare bulb cost and availability, and general usefulness. But I carry a Surefire E1 in my pocket, a C2 in my jacket wherever I go, and a Z3 by my bedside. Did I get the absolute MOST VALUE for my money? Probably not. I could have used Pelican products or Streamlight products and my needs would have been met and I'd have money to spare. But do I want to use a Surefire? Yes. The combination of what they are, how well they're made, and what they are made to do makes them worth having for me.


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## vtunderground (Oct 14, 2005)

beavo451 said:


> For fair comparision, you should compare it to the E2L. At least then they are both LED and both can be had for around $100.



Ah, good point! I'd forgotten about the E2L. I don't have one, or a KL1, but if anyone has one and a Pelican M6 LED HA-III I'd be interested to here how they compare.


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## zespectre (Oct 14, 2005)

I can only say this, the Surefires that I own have been worth the money to me.

I have
1) Old and battered 6P that has seen an awful lot of use under some pretty poor conditions (my glovebox).
2) New and shiny 6P with the P61HOLA assembly (wife's glovebox).
3) Somewhat new and mostly shiny L2 that has seen roughly 30-50 hours of use backpacking and camping.

The lights that absolutely have to work when I need them (camping or for car emergencies) are all surefires.


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## Haesslich (Oct 14, 2005)

vtunderground said:


> Haesslich: No, it's not a fair comparison, because the M6 LED HA-III is such a better value  I made the comparison because they both cost around $100.



Personally, I'd have suggested using the simple Pelican M6 in the comparison, if only because that way you've got two incandescents - as my example suggested, comparing one to another and stating that the incandescent's less durable is rather akin to dropping a flash-based MP3 player to the ground beside a hard-drive based player while both are playing and then complaining about how the hard-drive based player's inferior in construction.

The Pelican's a great value - I don't argue that, especially not the HAIII version that Batterystation commissioned; however, saying that the Surefire does not perform like its price is a bit misleading, at least with what you suggested. It's worth the money, if you feel it's worth the money and take advantage of the brand name and the warrantee policy. There are other, cheaper alternatives which will serve most people just as well; it's why Mag's still in business, after all these years, after all.


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## enLIGHTenment (Oct 14, 2005)

Haesslich said:


> They're comparable in the way that a Mini Maglight is comparable with a Streamlight TL-3; they'll both light things up at close range, but beyond that it's hard to compare them in terms of features and performance.



Let's use FLR.com data to compare an E2L with a T3. Both lights are HA-III and come with lifetime warranties. Both are regulated Lux III lights powered by 2x CR123A. Both lights use optics rather than reflectors. The E2L has a throw rating of 40, an overall output of 23 and runs 2h51m to 50%. The T3 has a throw rating of 46, an overall output rating of 28 adn runs 2h31 to 50%. The E2L comes with a pocket clip. The T3 costs $63 USD while the E2L costs $125 USD.

That must be one hell of an impressive pocket clip on the E2L to be worth $63 and make the T3 look like a minimag in comparison.

If reliability is a concern, buy two T3s for the price of an E2L. None of that vaunted Surefire marketing--'scuse me--engineering will help if you happen to lose your light somewhere....


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## beavo451 (Oct 14, 2005)

enLIGHTenment said:


> Let's use FLR.com data to compare an E2L with a T3. Both lights are HA-III and come with lifetime warranties. Both are regulated Lux III lights powered by 2x CR123A. Both lights use optics rather than reflectors. The E2L has a throw rating of 40, an overall output of 23 and runs 2h51m to 50%. The T3 has a throw rating of 46, an overall output rating of 28 adn runs 2h31 to 50%. The E2L comes with a pocket clip. The T3 costs $63 USD while the E2L costs $125 USD.
> 
> That must be one hell of an impressive pocket clip on the E2L to be worth $63 and make the T3 look like a minimag in comparison.
> 
> If reliability is a concern, buy two T3s for the price of an E2L. None of that vaunted Surefire marketing--'scuse me--engineering will help if you happen to lose your light somewhere....


 
Speaking of vaunted marketing, Inova claims that the T3 gives out 85 lumens. I don't see how having almost three times the light output, the throw is only marginally better. In a larger, bulkier package without a pocket clip:wave: .
And I don't lose my lights either.


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## Haesslich (Oct 14, 2005)

enLIGHTenment said:


> Let's use FLR.com data to compare an E2L with a T3. Both lights are HA-III and come with lifetime warranties. Both are regulated Lux III lights powered by 2x CR123A. Both lights use optics rather than reflectors. The E2L has a throw rating of 40, an overall output of 23 and runs 2h51m to 50%. The T3 has a throw rating of 46, an overall output rating of 28 adn runs 2h31 to 50%. The E2L comes with a pocket clip. The T3 costs $63 USD while the E2L costs $125 USD.
> 
> That must be one hell of an impressive pocket clip on the E2L to be worth $63 and make the T3 look like a minimag in comparison.
> 
> If reliability is a concern, buy two T3s for the price of an E2L. None of that vaunted Surefire marketing--'scuse me--engineering will help if you happen to lose your light somewhere....



Funny how you mentioned marketing, and Inova claims 85 lumens for the T3, which is a somewhat larger light (~4.5 inches for the E2 body with KL1 versus 6.5 inches for the T3) with less runtime. What one's ended up paying for with the KL1 2nd gen is the R&D which resulted in the smaller optic than the one used in the Inova, and miniaturized equipment has generally come with a premium price... which the Surefire did. I've rarely seen an overrated Surefire, but every Inova I've come across has made claims about its size, runtime, and performance which leave me scratching my head as to how they came up with some of those numbers and statements.

As noted by others, you're paying for the brandname and the guarantee which comes with Surefire lights, which can be worth it when you haven't lost the light. Also, if you've lost both T3's, then how are you any better off than the guy who lost his single E2-KL1 combo? 

When it comes down to everyday things, a cheaper light may serve you as well as a more expensive torch... but sometimes the extra money IS worth the investment, especially if it comes down to something with a fairly bombproof design and reputation.


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## enLIGHTenment (Oct 14, 2005)

TonkinWarrior said:


> However, if your Peli M6 LED craps out when you're spelunking a quarter mile underground -- and then you discover ya lost your back-up light and spare batteries



You're asking for a darwin award if you go caving without 1) carrying multiple backup lights and 2) checking them all before going underground.

Reliable lights are good, but not even Surefire is a substitute for good planning


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## beavo451 (Oct 14, 2005)

So take multiple Surefires


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## NikolaTesla (Oct 14, 2005)

SureFire or not, I would take 4 lights in a cave.

At least 2 would be multi power so run time would be real long Like L2 and U2.
One good bright one to see details LOLA bulbs only. M4 or M6. Another E2O in the pocket as last backup. a box of 12 123's in another pocket. Caves are the ultimate darkness.
One last thing that would never quit is a Tritium key bob.


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## Haesslich (Oct 14, 2005)

NikolaTesla said:


> SureFire or not, I would take 4 lights in a cave.
> 
> At least 2 would be multi power so run time would be real long Like L2 and U2.
> One good bright one to see details LOLA bulbs only. M4 or M6. Another E2O in the pocket as last backup. a box of 12 123's in another pocket. Caves are the ultimate darkness.
> One last thing that would never quit is a Tritium key bob.



I'd probably pack a headlight and keep it on me at all times.  Then again, that's just me... and a beta-light like a tritium lamp would be useful to mark a place, or your own location, if not necessarily to see 50 feet out, I suspect, no matter how little use they may have otherwise outside of that and reading maps and things at close range.


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## Firebladz (Oct 19, 2005)

Well I finally bought my first high end light, it's not exactly a surefire but close...
I don't have it yet but it's on it's way so we'll see when it gets here... :rock: 

Firebladz.


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## Kris (Oct 19, 2005)

Yes, in my opinion Surefires are more than worth the price.

I have been using them for several years. I have been pretty rough with them and they have never let me down. I started a long time ago with a 9P and currently use an M3 every night. But I always carry a backup light (another M3) and usually an A2 and a U2 also. They also have the best customer service in the industry, just look at their guarantee.


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## kbcamera (Oct 19, 2005)

Yep I wont go into a cave w/out my headlamp, which in a cave is my primary light and my surefire 6P and my U2 ultra. The u2 is only for the event that i get lost, or lose my other 2. Knowing it can run for 40 hours on its lowest setting, which is more than enough in the dark is a good feeling.


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## Geologist (Oct 19, 2005)

My first entry into this thread. Beyond reliabilty and lifetime guarentee that SF provides, another aspect that makes them also more value for the money is their modularity. Interchangable bezels, bodies, tailcaps, filters, and lamps make a SF investment worthwhile. It is almost like having SF legos!


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## asdalton (Oct 19, 2005)

If I had to pick either the Inova T3 or the Surefire E2L as stand-alone flashlights, I would give a slight edge to the T3. The T3 has an advantage in output, throw, smoothness of beam, and price. The E2L has an advantage in runtime and size. That being said, I used to own a T3 and sold it, while I still have my E2L. Why? It's because the Surefire E-series parts are interchangeable, and I switch heads often depending on what I need. For example, my E2L is actually a KL1 head on the body of my L4. Sometimes I use the stock KL4 on that body while using the KL1 on an E1e body. The Inovas don't have that versatility.

Also, the large size of the T3 turned out to be a major sticking point. I often found myself leaving my T3 at home while taking a dimmer but more pocketable flashlight with me.


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## JonSidneyB (Oct 25, 2005)

For all of the reasons mentioned make Surefire worth the money but I think there is another important reason Surefire is worth more than other lights.

Right now we are having large numbers of lights that do not do anything new. They are just repackaging what already exists. If we do not support the companies that do new things, we will just have rehash of the same theme over and over again.

The SureFire is better than almost everything out there but lets say there is a light that is 90% as good as the SureFire but produces no original work. Lets say that the Surefire is 200.00 and the other light is 100.00. 

The Surefire is by far the better bargin. The costs of doing something new might shock some of you. It is far less to do something the second time and that is one reason copies can be so much cheaper....buying copies also retards new items being developed since new items ride on the back of the old.


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## Robt (Oct 26, 2005)

I recently visited Craig Johnson LED Museum website checking out his reivews looking at the pics of the beams giving his opinions and checked out the reviews at flashlightreviews.com also. I also went to Surefires website.

My God, they are Soooooooooooooooooooooo expensive! I don't mind paying some bucks for a good well made "Made in the USA" flashlight that has a 5 year warranty or a LIFETIME warranty, but the prices on these Surefires, is the most astronomical I ever seen!!! I think the prices are too ridiculously HIGH! If the Surefire company where to charge no higher than $60.00 for a flashlight, then i probably would purchase a flashlight from them! Other than that, i wouldn't buy one at the prices they want for them.. Anyone out there feel the same way I do?


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## JonSidneyB (Oct 26, 2005)

Nope,

The kind of lights I want are expensive to build and have high costs on developlment to get it right.

The lights they could build in the lower price ranges do not interest me that much.


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## yaesumofo (Oct 26, 2005)

Surefire flashlights are worth every penny. I love the versatility of the KL-1 and KL-4 LED heads. I also love the 6P and 9P flashlights. 

The 9P with a P91 globe puts out 200 lumen. This combination is about $100.00.
I believe that this is a great value.

All of that said, there are m any flashlights which are also good values. for example the MrBUlk Chameleon... A new leading edge LUXIII single cell flashlight for a price under $200.00. This is also a good value considering that there will only be a couple of hundred of then in the world not 2000 of 10,000. There are other tremendous values like the elektrolumens Blaster series of flashlights. These all sell for like $40.00-$50.00. That is for flashlights which are incredibly durable heavy duty lights. 

All of this is really subjective. A good value to me may be different than a good value to you. A lot of this has quite a bit to do with what I can afford and what I am going to do with it.
There are people in this world who put their life in the hands of lights like the surefire and Maglights. 
When you need total dependability Surefire is a great way to go. In many cases a Maglite may also be a perfect...at a much lower price.
I say to each his own. Value if dependant on you needs and ability to pay.
If I needed a Surefire L6 LumaMax™ for work I would have no problem shelling out the $265.00

If I didn't think I was going to use it on a regular basis I wouldn't spend the money. Does that mean that $265.00 is a bad value. It just means that I may have found another surefire for much less Like the 6P for $56.00,That suits my needs Both of these lights are fine values. It is more about what your needs are and how to best meet those needs. Value is subjective.
What the market will bare is an inportant factor. 
What are you willing to pay for a flashlight which will be your companion for years to come?

Yaesumofo


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## JonSidneyB (Nov 2, 2005)

I have owned many lights and have tried almost everything out there. There are only a few lights that I actually use, and some of them are not the ones that I currently sell.

I cannot sell Surefires but for years a Surefire has handled half of my personal lighting needs. When people say that another cheaper light is just as good, I have to disagree, it isn't. Value....we could argue that but I have had lesser lights and have turned around and found a place to buy another Surefire because what I was using was not good enough for me.

In the last 5 years the lights that have about 95% or serious use has been Surefires, Customs, and Larry Lights.


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## revv11 (Nov 23, 2005)

As a new Surefire owner I sometimes ask myself the same question. So what I do is turn on my Maglite and SF U2 for comparison. Then I wonder what the question was.


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## Haesslich (Nov 23, 2005)

revv11 said:


> As a new Surefire owner I sometimes ask myself the same question. So what I do is turn on my Maglite and SF U2 for comparison. Then I wonder what the question was.



That's not quite a fair comparison - try turning on a Surefire M4 or M6 next to a Maglight and that'll be better - two incandescents.


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## CARNAL1 (Nov 23, 2005)

Yes, without a doubt. I just bought my first real Surefire light, (the M2 Centurion) and I can't believe how fantastic this little light is. Heavy duty HAIII finish, Lock-out tailcap w\ witness marks, optically coated Pyrex lens, Shock isolated bezel. This thing rocks. I just need to find a holster to fit it. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated. This light has become my new EDC, with my Fenix L1P as back-up. I can't think of a better one\two punch. Worth every penny and I'm thinking about getting another one, maybe in 2006 when I get my Income tax refund back. My advice, buy a Surefire, you won't be dissappointed.


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## Brian E (Nov 23, 2005)

I just wish their website and sales support were better. Ordered some stuff and it never shipped, nor did I receive any indication of when it might ship. Either that or they are waiting to get make more bulbs prior to shipping the other items I ordered.

Their lights are tough, I will give them that.


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## lumenjunkie (Dec 10, 2005)

With Surefire, you get the finest customer service, unreal lifetime guarantee, ultra clean beamshots, and the pleasure of knowing you have the best. 

I have 4 of the 10x911 Dominators, 2 M6 CB's, 1 G2 w/61 120 lumen bulb. The 911 is the one closest to my bed every night.

BTW, Fry's electronics now carries rechargable CR123's; work pretty well. Retail is about $20.00 for a charger and two batteries.


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## Size15's (Dec 10, 2005)

And I thought I was nuts...  






BTW,
The "911" refers to the kit including the charger and USA AC powersupply.

10X is the name.

10X000 is just the 10X without charger
10X911 Kit (USA)
10X921 Kit (UK)
10X931 Kit (EU)
10X941 Kit (AUS)

Other examples:
C9*1*1 is the 10X charger for the US (1) (2nd '1' indicates DC adapter)
8AX4*2*5-HA is for the UK (2)
9AN4*3*5-BK is for the EU (3)
L74*4*5-HA-WH is for AUS (4)


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## CQB (Dec 12, 2005)

looks like the people have spoken!  you've pretty much heard good opinions that support one way or the other.

for me, I too believe SF lights are well worth the $$.

as others have already repeated... you have to experience a SF to see what all the hooplah is about!

(i havent read all the previosu posts so forgive me if this analogy has already been used)

it's much like trying to justify buying a high-end vehicle like a sports car or sports-ute, eh? Some people would never pay any of the extravagant prices for a genuine high-end vehicle. 

I mean, let's face it: all vehicles bring us from Point A to Point B, that's it!

But still, the prices for vehicles range considerably. And as far as I can see, it has a lot to do with getting what you pay for! Driving a lower-end economy car just doesnt give the driver the same "experience" as driving a high-end luxury vehicle or the like. You still get from Point A to Point B in the economy vehicle. But those who own/drive higher-end vehicles will attest that there IS a difference! A huge difference!! Everything from quality to fuel economy to warranty to performance, blah blah blah. And to get the best of these attributes just plain COSTS more! 

Back to flashlights - for me, I use my lights chasing after bad people in the dark... and sometimes that's even while I am at work!  

But seriously, high-end lights help keep me alive. Period. And IMHO there is no price too high to pay as my life is pretty much priceless in my point of view.  

As others have already expressed accurately... SF lights are high-end "tools" that get the job done. There are ohter tools out there, other brands that cost much less than SF... but I would not trust most of these lesser-performing tools when it's crunch-time, eh? As one of the very first posters already said... what's having a reliable high-end flashlight tool worth to you when things are starting to get dangerous...?

If you want the best-of-the-best... you pay for it up front.

(... and to be honest, us flashaholics are also great "rationalists" too...!)


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