# 3000L+ IRC Flashlights have arrived (Mag mods)



## andrewwynn (Jun 7, 2006)

With the interest and testing from this thread I've come up with the first two maglite mods using the Osram IRC halostar lamps that i'm aware of. 

There are some neat beamshots here.

With some empirical measurements.. i've determined that the lumen re-rating is exaggerated if you use the standard formula.. i have de-rated the formula to get more accurate values from the calculator and this is what i've come up with so far:

My first tester is a 3D host using 16x2/3A IB1400 cells.. they are 'good for' about 1.2AH so that gets me.. a real-world runtime of 11/14/19 minutes depending if i'm using the 65/50/35W lamp. 

output: I was a little disappointed when the lumen test shows the 50W shy of the output of my 'favorite' the 64625.. but.. to be fair i'm only running the IRC50 at 96W vs the 122W of the 64625. The output figures on the IRC lamps are calculating out to about 3500/2500/1800.. a little shy of the 2000/3000/4000 i was hoping for, but substantial nonetheless. 

My second tester is a 5D.. so i can use the emilion D LiON.. with 4.2AH.. the runtimes calculate to 37/49/66 minutes! that is so incredible.. 

The 5D right now i have the 50W lamp in in a LS reflector and it's for lack of a better word the perfect light.. yeah it's definitely large.. not the 'EDC' type of light.. and.. i would only want to use the 35W lamp for continuous use.. the head gets reaaallly hot after a five minute excursion.. but using the light on/off for a few hours and getting maybe 20 minutes runtime on it.. i only put a dent in the batteries and of course no dimming yet.. i did not get the light to shut down from overheat inside, so that's a great sign. 

Not wanting to break my only working model i didn't feel like pushing the runtime constant thing.. not to mention not sure if i have a UCL lens in there and really don't want to be breaking them from heat anymore. 

I've been using the 3D model for a few charge cycles and even with the 65W lamp in there the runtime performance is definitely on-par with the 625 lamp. 

When i get to the 'next level' with these lights.. i will plan on making both the 625 and the IRC models.. after using them for a while and testing.. i just can't say no to the 'pro' column of the 625.. it takes more power to run but it's worth it.. i get the lamps in bulk for about 1/3 to 1/4 the price of the IRC lamps and it's just sooo much whiter.. 

However.. with the advent of the 5D... check out this comparison:

4D 625 lamp:.. 27 minutes of 2900L. 
5D IRC 50 lamp: 49 minutes of 2500L. (37 minutes of 3300L).. 

The beam quality is just amazing with the IRC lamps.. you can use a SMO reflector if you want a really beamy throw.. the axial filament leads to a very distinct perfectly circular spot and the lack of a filament lead shadow is very very nice. (the return lead goes through the center of the filament.. can't believe it took so long to make that!). 

The color is a bit on the yellow side for my taste, but i don't think i'd want to push the voltage much higher than the 18.6 i'm using now.. the first lamp (50W) that i've been using on the bench a lot for testing has suffered some significant darkening ala maglite bulbs.. not terrible it still works very well.. but concerned about the longevity of the lamps so i will keep you posted as these prototypes go through the ropes.. i use them every day. 

The 65W lamp has not shown any ill effects yet and i started the 5D off with a brand new lamp so i can get a sense of bulb life. about a half hour use on the 50W in the 5D host and it looks brand new still. Same can be said for the 65W lamp in the 3D host. 

So.. i'm trying to weigh the pro/con of the IRC vs the 625/610 solution.. the host i'll be working on will fit either a 16 cell 2/3A or an 11 cell 4/5A.. they are within about 1mm the same length by sheer coincidence.. There is something just 'very cool' about using the IRC lamps that is really hard to put a finger on that makes me want to use them vs the standard 625/610. 

I really really like the GP2000 cells.. which leans me toward that solution since also the lamps are readily available and anybody can buy them themselves, however i do have things in the works to buy boxes of 40 of the IRC lamps should i make a big batch of IRC lights. 

It should 'go without saying' that i'm not planning to make any 'run' of these 'til my current projects are out the door, but in the not to distant future.. i do expect to offer something based on the 625 or the IRC lamps for sale in 'whatever' quantity demand supports.. They are designed ground-up for mass production.. with less than 1 man-hour labor per unit, so once things are up-and-running there won't be any significant delay. 

The IRC lamps are most certainly easier to 'wrangle' from a photon management point of view.. you can use any reflector from smo to heavy stipple.. the 625.. i only like the beam in stippled reflectors.. it's a total mess with a smooth.. but in a H.S. reflector.. the 625 is my favorite beam.. for use up to about 100'.. farther than that.. i prefer the likes of the IRC or the 138 lamp in a LOP... really has some serious throw! 

The 35W IRC lamp has enough of a smaller filament.. that outside in the dark.. you get a noteworthy 'beamy' spot.. it actually might 'seem' to have more throw than the 50 or 65 because the flood is not as bright.. all three lamps are really nice.. the lower wattage models have a higher CCT.

One of my favorite aspects of these lamps.. is that you can de-tune the focus to get a really nice flood.. it's absolutely impossible to get an ugly beam out of them.. it goes from 'sorta spot' (with a bunch of flood).. to 'pure flood' with about 3 twists of the head (180 deg twists).. it's a fantastic solution.. and with a 'light stipple' reflector.. it takes the 'edge' off the spot to flood transition which is quite dramatic with the LOP or SMO reflector. 

So.. there ya have it.. some very awesome real-world IRC flashlights.. not sure if somebody else came before me.. one thing that should have maybe been obvious to somebody that knows me is that of course these use the hotdriver to regulated voltage and shut down when the batteries are dead. I am working on finally getting my PIR -> KIU solution worked out and i have 2 PIRs so i would be able to bump my 16 pack up to 18 to get a longer runtime.. cost effectiveness would preclude from a 'mass run' of them being PIR-based.. but i would likely work on a PIR-friendly solution that people could DIY their own. 

-awr


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## DUQ (Jun 8, 2006)

*Re: IRC Flashlights have arrived*

Wow, that's not a wall of light but a city block of light  :huh:


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## andrewwynn (Jun 8, 2006)

*Re: IRC Flashlights have arrived*

i tend toward more 'floody' reflectors.. so yeah.. lights up most of a block.. these lights are no messin' around. Just one of them is more light than BOTH high beams of most cars.... quite fun to stick out the window while driving. 

-awr


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## Delvance (Jun 8, 2006)

*Re: IRC Flashlights have arrived*

Very nice Awr. Haha yep, lights of this caliber defintely smoke most cars high beams. Can't wait till a mass market 625 or IRC lamp solution comes out, i may have to get one...maybe the IRC lamp solution ? With the coating and also lower watt numbers, reflectors won't be damaged so quick. They probably would be more suitable for DD as well due to their extreme overdrive capabilities...for the poor consumers like me


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## andrewwynn (Jun 8, 2006)

*Re: IRC Flashlights have arrived*

i think you could actually get away with an 18V direct-drive.. and a really 'no brainer' solution will be to mix my smartpak with 15AA cells in an un-bored 4D light.. you could run the 25, 35, 50 or 65W lamp.. the smartpak has a provision for an FET switch.. so you could eliminate the switch and fit that many cells into a 3D with a tailcap switch.. of course you'd have to use a 4D cut down if you don't want a hole out the side. I'm very torn between the 625 and the IRCs.. but with my 625 out-of-commission right now.. and can't do a head-to-head i don't miss it.. it's just when i can do a side-by-side and see how LUDICROUSLY white the 625 is and how full the beam is that i really miss it. 

-awr


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## mdocod (Jun 8, 2006)

*Re: IRC Flashlights have arrived*

This is awsom! I can't imaging all the time you have wrapped up in this project- I remember reading some of the first threads about these lamps- and now you have some serious designs ready for people to start building.... totally awsom..

I'm really hoping to see some protected C, subC, and D sized li-ions come to fruition- along with chargers designed to accomdate them in the furture.. The rest of the world hasn't really generated any real market need for these cells- but we sure have the need here... A 5 C sized mag is very managable- and could probably drive the 35 and 50W IRCs without a hitch...(C lion)


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## andrewwynn (Jun 8, 2006)

*Re: IRC Flashlights have arrived*

fortunately.. the IRCs are much lower current since they are higher voltage.. if AW can get the C LiON prot. going.. they would be ideal for a 5C solution it should work direct-drive. My 5D is basically 'direct drive'.. i use the hotdriver for safety.. proper voltage shutdown but also soft start. 

sub-C Lion or better. (IMHO).. 1/2D LiON.. that would be awesome.. that'd get the size down to 2D or 2 1/2D perhaps. 

There is just something 'extra special' about these lamps in a flashlight. I have high hopes that the burn time (bulb life) will be useful.. i was a little worried from the one lamp that is getting dark.. but that poor lamp has seen some real brutality.. when i'm bench testing.. i do not at all use the 'clean room' philosophy for lamp handling.. they get plugged in with my fingers.. and pulled out with a silicone thermal pad.. dropped on the bench on another thermal pad with the 5 or 6 other tester lamps.. not to mention subject to brutal testing. So far so good.. the 65W lamp is a trouper.. and the 50W did a great run so far.

-awr


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## diggdug13 (Jun 8, 2006)

wow! now that's a block of light (as stolen from DUQ), do you have any comparative shots with the Mag625 and Mag138 I'd be interested in the differences, also what's the runtime on one of these lights.

doug


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## elnino (Jun 8, 2006)

Andrew, where can we purchase these Osram Halostar IRC 65/50/35W lamps?


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## andrewwynn (Jun 8, 2006)

digdug.. go to http://rouse.com/beams to find numerous head-to-head between the 138 and the 625. the latest i think '23 may hots' for example. The 138 is beamier than either. runtimes are described on the first post. 

elnino.. pretty much nowhere. I got my first two batches from people that already bought them.. the are absolutely not available in the USA.. i've heard rumors the might be available in canada and I found one dealer in germany and one in the U.K. that might be able to deliver. Just on 31 May a new dealer popped up in slovania with some serious promise.. with only $13 shipping to the usa. I have an order in with them and i'll let you know how that goes.


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## elnino (Jun 16, 2006)

Andrew, just wondering if you ever received your lamps from slovenia? I found the website and am tempted to place an order. I actually tried, but I kept getting a "There was an error while authorizing your credit card". I sent an email and was told to "[font=Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]use payment option: CC by Fax". Not sure I want to do that.
[/font]


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## elnino (Jun 18, 2006)

:bump:


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## andrewwynn (Jun 18, 2006)

el.. i posted a reply or emailed you.. but either the cpf-gnomes ate my reply or it was email.. not sure if you got that.. anyhow.. i got a shipping notice a few days ago.. it should only be less than a week before i have them in-hand. I'll be able to sell you a couple when we ship your latest order to you.

-awr


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## elnino (Jun 18, 2006)

Andrew, I received two emails from you in as many days!:wow: But nothing in there related to these IRC lamps. Anyway, I will gladly take you up on your offer to buy a couple from you. COOL! PayPal is locked and loaded. I will send you an email to see what I owe you. Thanks.


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## chevrofreak (Jun 20, 2006)

andrewwynn said:


> With the interest and testing from this thread I've come up with the first two maglite mods using the Osram IRC halostar lamps that i'm aware of.
> 
> -awr


 

I think FrenchyLED made some several months ago


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## andrewwynn (Jun 20, 2006)

i did a search and couldn't find any threads started.. if there is an 18V IRC maglite before mine i would like to know to give proper credit. 

-awr


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## winny (Jun 21, 2006)

Err.. Mine was  
(sort of, it didn't end up at 18 V but close to it)


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## chevrofreak (Jun 21, 2006)

All I remember was that he was bragging in chat about getting something like 60 lumens/watt by overdriving the crap out of the bulbs.


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## andrewwynn (Jun 21, 2006)

I don't think that ever made it into a light, it was on a bench... it was the 60L/W thread that got me interested in the lamps. estimates right now in actual use are in the low to middle 40's for L/W.. 20-25% more efficient than the high-end 100W osrams. 

-awr


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## Rayne (Jun 23, 2006)

Those are some crazy beamshots. I feel sorry for your neighbors though. :devil:


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## andrewwynn (Jun 23, 2006)

yeah i try to avoid hitting windows for sure.. but i'm sure on occasion people get that 'glint' as if a car was turning the corner and hitting their window.. of course.. not quite normal on the 2nd floor! 

-awr


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## Rayne (Jun 25, 2006)

If you shined the flashlight directly at their windows in the middle of the night, they might think they are being abducted by aliens! :lolsign:


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## andrewwynn (Jun 26, 2006)

yeah kinda wondering what they thought last night when i shined the 12,000L 600W spotlight out there! 

-awr


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## Rayne (Jun 26, 2006)

andrewwynn said:


> yeah kinda wondering what they thought last night when i shined the 12,000L 600W spotlight out there!
> 
> -awr



"Oh crap, the sun's up already! I'm late for work! Wait, it's that crazy neighbor of mine playing with his lights again..."

I read someone's post in another thread saying they were making the wrong light. I know how they feel. This thing makes the Mag85 (the one I'm trying to make along with a ROP or 2) look dim.


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## andrewwynn (Jun 26, 2006)

yes it does.. avoid playing with one as long as you can! you can't un-experience it .. kind of like the joke i heard recently.. 

"have any of you husbands witnessed your baby being born? a show of hands.. 

and the follow up.

"now.. show me your hands if you would GIVE ANYTHING to erase that memory!"

the really spooky thing is this.. imagine with the lower output lamps.. like the 25W model.. it's the size of a mag85 but outputs 30% more light. and for longer runtime.. that's 'just crazytalk'. 

I'm quite sure i've spent 10-20x the time and 5x the $ developing the first prototype of the IRC, don't feel too bad just yet. 

-awr


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## cnjl3 (Jun 26, 2006)

andrewwynn said:


> I'll be able to sell you a couple when we ship your latest order to you.
> -awr


My IRC 35w that i lit up last night with 15 - IB1400's in a tri-bore M*G 3D host has a great beam with a hell of a hot spot. I was wondering if you ever got the your bulbs? will you be selling 50w and 65w by themselves or are you gonna sell completed packages.


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## andrewwynn (Jun 26, 2006)

lamps came in.. very timley.. i will be buying more from them for sure. make sure you send a note to my email so we can get you set up.. your hotdriver order will ship pretty soon and i won't have to charge shipping if i can sent them together. 

15xIB1400 is such a gimme for these lamps. same as 5D LiON (though you can get away with DD for the IBs.. i would NEVER run LiON in series w/o shut down.. even with the shutdown ckt, one cell got lower than i'd prefer.. of course 'operator being a dummy' = reason. 

-awr


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## Rayne (Jun 27, 2006)

That's true, I've already ruined a bunch of lights with a 6AA KPR112 setup. The stock beams look so dim now. I guess I'll just have to work my way up the lumen ladder like ROP low, ROP high, Mag85, etc.



andrewwynn said:


> the really spooky thing is this.. imagine with the lower output lamps.. like the 25W model.. it's the size of a mag85 but outputs 30% more light. and for longer runtime.. that's 'just crazytalk'.
> 
> -awr



I've never heard of that 25W model before. Wow, 30% brighter and runs longer as a Mag85? How do you make one and where do you get the parts?


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## andrewwynn (Jun 27, 2006)

well.. it's not rocket science to get the bat. pack together.. you need a tri-bore light and some method to get 15-16 cells in series.. 15 is a 'gimmie' because it divides by 3.. i have a spacer of 2 cells in my light.. there are a few reasons for that.... that will be coming out in a month or two. 

16x2/3A will fit into a 3D.. infact you can fit 18.. but you'll blow the lamp  unfortunately.. i don't think you can fit 15x2/3A or that would be one incredible lamp! 

if you have the ability.. ALWAYS keep a stock configured maglite around for that re-calibration to everybody else's reality.. it's just plain sad how low output they are! 

I run my IRC lamps at 18.6V.. i'll be boosting that up to 19V soon to see if they can take it.. subjectively.. i am finding preference for the 50W lamp even though the output is not really more than the USL.. that is mind-bending bright.. and it takes only 90W compared to the Mag138 (simlar to usl) which takes about 122W. The 65W lamp might be the 'most fun' but the beam has the funny spot in the center that axial lamps have.. though the beam is gorgeous because of the perfect symmetry. 

The 35W lamp has higher contrast of spot to flood so it actually seems to penetrate maybe even farther than the 50 or 65.. I have yet to get the comapro beamshots done but i'll be doing that as soon as i can. 

I will have a battery pack available in the not too distant future.. maybe a month. 

-awr


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## Rayne (Jun 27, 2006)

Since I'm a newb, I'll let you figure out that battery pack thing. I don't want to make any exploding lights. I even shorted (I think) a 6AA battery pack I made and didn't even realize it, left it in the light wondering why the bulb went dim, and came back to a pretty warm light. Inside was hot enough to melt electrical tape. Good thing I checked on it before I went to sleep.

Keeping one stock of each modded light is a good idea to remind you of how much more light you have.

What kind of bulb is that 25 watter? There has to be threads on CPF talking about that build.


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## andrewwynn (Jun 27, 2006)

yup sounds like a short to me.. been there done that. 







the rest of the pictures here

yeah you want to avoid shorting put packs that can output multiple hundreds of watts of power.. yikes! 

this thread is about the osram IRC lamps, so '25Wer' means the 25W version of that particular lamp. 

Nobody's made an IRC mod with that lamp yet.. but my mods will work with any of the four and i've done the math to estimate the output. 

I'm making my IRC mods with 18.6V using a regulator and 16 cells.. a direct-drive solution uses 15 cells.. it won't be as bright but it'll be like $50 cheaper (no regulator)... that $50 can be a substantial portion of the total budget. 

if you haven't checked out the hotdriver.. do so.. click the icon or link in my signature.


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## Rayne (Jun 27, 2006)

Now that's what I call a meltdown! At least the pack I shorted was only 6v and didn't melt the batteries. Okay, I thought it was a 25W WA bulb or something already readily available on the market. Can't wait to see when those IRC bulbs are easier to get. I have looked at the hotdriver before, looks cool. Regulated output from a incan plus softstart so it'll be a lot harder to insta-flash bulbs. I'll have to wait till I get to higher powered bulbs, kiu sockets, and get more experience modding and with electronics before I can use those. I know I could break both the hotdriver and kiu at the same time.


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## Delvance (Jun 27, 2006)

Ouch on that battery carrier Awr! Thing looks a total mess. 

Looking forward to seeing the end result of these IRC hotwires!


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## andrewwynn (Jun 28, 2006)

it'll probably be about another week before i can get the beamshots i'm looking for.. i don't have 25W lamps but will order some on my next order... but i'll get the 35/50/65 and compared to the 62138 and 64625 solutions.

The bat. pack didn't short btw.. the flashlight itself developed a short.. it only melted so much because the pack was so well made it could deliver the power required to make that mess.. it actually melted the solder on the pack! 

-awr


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## petrev (Jun 28, 2006)

Hi Andrew

So - I got my IRC35s and yesterday I made some adapters to make my FM carrier into a series unit. With a PIR in the head I thought this would be good to go with 6x17670 AW-Protected(New) - Should be able to get to about 17V at 1.5C and the PIR to soft-start as well.

NOWT - Nothing - The AW batts just shutdown so there must be a high, instantaneous current, type thing, happening ! 

I had the PIR set to low voltages (5-7) to get started in the new 21.6V nominal setup and check the output volts - it switches on OK with no load so I pushed in the IRC35 after startup and its OK - the surge must be during PIR-start - but I can't really insert the IRC at full 17V to see what happens - can I - might burn my fingers ! 

So it seems that only Raw Cells will work in this 6s17670 setup !

Ah Well - Worth a try !

Cheers Pete


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## winny (Jun 28, 2006)

petrev,

Have you tried increasing the soft start time?


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## petrev (Jun 28, 2006)

winny said:


> petrev,
> 
> Have you tried increasing the soft start time?




I'll Try That
Cheers

EDIT

No - set 1000ms and no change - there must be a minute amount of time when a higher current flows before the regulation starts I guess !

Thanks Pete


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## winny (Jun 28, 2006)

petrev,

Minute? No, it's semi-regulated during the soft start and regulated thereafter. The soft start I-t-curve didn't end up perfect. I'll try to write you a better one, more S-shaped.


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## petrev (Jun 28, 2006)

winny said:


> petrev,
> 
> Minute? No, it's semi-regulated during the soft start and regulated thereafter. The soft start I-t-curve didn't end up perfect. I'll try to write you a better one, more S-shaped.



Hi Winny

Sorry ? minute ? in context is not minute as in 60 seconds but minute (pronounced my-newt) as in infinitesimal: infinitely or immeasurably small amount of time !

Sorry - the vagaries of English !

Can you PM address for return ? You or Alexander ? 

Thanks
Pete


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## lightplay22 (Jun 28, 2006)

Wow! That would qualify as a "defensive" flashlight for sure LOL. If they threw up the arm to block the light, it would roast their elbow!!


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## cnjl3 (Jun 28, 2006)

Hello, Petrev!

Sorry to hear that your PIR is on the blink. I used the one that Winny set to within 2% of light and just set it at 18.6volts 35w IRC bulb using fifteen IB1400's and damn the beam is NICE!. i did increase the soft start to 6.7blinks on the LED and the soft start is really noticable but it lights up evertime. i am thinking i will extend my battery holder to increase the cells to 18 cells. BTW on the picture you posted on Winnys thread showing your dremel i notice that it looks like you put a different LED on the PIR-whats up with that?


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## petrev (Jun 28, 2006)

cnjl3 said:


> Hello, Petrev!
> 
> Sorry to hear that your PIR is on the blink. I used the one that Winny set to within 2% of light and just set it at 18.6volts 35w IRC bulb using fifteen IB1400's and damn the beam is NICE!. i did increase the soft start to 6.7blinks on the LED and the soft start is really noticable but it lights up evertime. i am thinking i will extend my battery holder to increase the cells to 18 cells. BTW on the picture you posted on Winnys thread showing your dremel i notice that it looks like you put a different LED on the PIR-whats up with that?



Hi

Yep - my trouble is trying to use protected LiIons - even the new AW3.5-4.5A protected seem to trip out before the soft start kicks in and regulation begins - OK with NiMh no doubt as you are using but trying to get it to fit in a 2.5D !

The LEDs are odd cos I got one without surface mount LEDs (from a third party) and just fitted some I had - hence the extra size and oddness - may have been my poor LED fitting that broke that PIR ? Don't know yet ! 

18 NiMh is definitely a good way to go with the PIR - you can use all the bulbs that way - I just wanted too see if I could get the smaller pack to run the 35W at a reasonable level. I think the only way is Raw cells and let the PIR protect them ! ! !

Good Luck and Have Fun
Pete


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## petrev (Jun 29, 2006)

Hi All

Managed to get some test results with the IRC35 / 6s17670(AW1500) / PIR1

Method - 

1 - Set the PIR to 5V/7V/17V using a 2s3p 7.2VPack 
2 - Leave in 5V output mode
3 - Change to 6s 21.6VPack
4 - Switch on with no load and then insert IRC35 - Not enough power to burn fingers or retina !
5 - Attach red (pos) Croc Clip and press Neg-probe to other leg (actually use a Red-Probe cos of heat !)
6 - Increase power to 7V then 17V - measure Vout and Vin 
7 - Remember to reduce power to 5V ! ! ! then off.

Remove bulb when cooled

Remove tailcap and attach leads for current measurement
Repeat 4 and measure tail-cap current (6-7)

Now - Please can someone help me with the interpretation of the results ?

Vset = 17V
Vactual = 17.2 ( +1.2% OK - calc. using sqrt[13.42*22.06])
measured current = 3.17A

Now as you see I have no TRMS meter so have calculated true Voltage-out.

How about the Tail-cap current ? Is this a true reading ? If so its running at ~2C (not my estimate of 1.5C at 17V - ? Can't remember how I got that ?) or is this figure wrong and in need of a re-calc due to the PWM nature of the current ?

Any-How ! Can somebody let me know if this is OK for the LiIons or not ? 

Tell you what though - It's pretty NICE and BRIGHT

Cheers Pete


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## winny (Jun 29, 2006)

petrev,

POST BEAMSHOTS NOW!

You need to calculate the RMS current the same way you calculate voltage, although knowing your maximum current will be very difficult so use sqrt (duty*avg. current).


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## elnino (Jun 29, 2006)

Andrew, email sent regarding IRC lamps. Thanks.


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## petrev (Jun 29, 2006)

winny said:


> petrev,
> 
> POST BEAMSHOTS NOW!
> 
> You need to calculate the RMS current the same way you calculate voltage, although knowing your maximum current will be very difficult so use sqrt (duty*avg. current).




Hi Winny

My cheap meter just tells me what ? Average current ? Peak current ?
Also no real help as don't know duty cycle unless it is someway related to Vin and Vout as measured by my dumb meter ?

Thanks anyway as now I know I am probably not stressing the cells too much ! hopefully !

Pete


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## cnjl3 (Jun 29, 2006)

Good job Petrev! 


nice to hear that your Li-ions can take the punishment.
Andrew recommends 18.6v and i hear that he is experimenting with going up higher but i will wait until i see his results.

Also i am glad that i am not the only one who doesnt know what "duty" is in Winnys formula for amperage.


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## winny (Jun 29, 2006)

cnjl3,

It all depends on how soft lifetime you can afford on your bulb. As I wrote earlier in this thread IIRC, they would live up to about 21-22 V before the fillament melted. 18.6 V is almost a bit moderate  .


petrev,

I forgot... If your Ubat = 22.06 and URMS = 17.2, then your durt-cycle is 0.608. If your DC-average current is 3.17 A with that duty-cycle, your RMS-current is 2.47 A. This method is a bit inaccurate (due to the nature of how DMMs measure signals like this) but most probably within a +- 10 % error-margin.


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## petrev (Jun 29, 2006)

cnjl3 said:


> Good job Petrev!
> 
> 
> nice to hear that your Li-ions can take the punishment.
> ...



Hi

Yes I stopped at 17V as that was my estimate of 1.5C for my LiIons. Just need to find out if I can go any higher without harming my cells !

Just found this from the old PIR sales thread #430


Sanny said:


> pertinax,
> 
> if you measure the output voltage with a DMM on the DC setting,
> 
> ...



so . . .

if my reading is Av.Current then true current at 17.2V(calc)

is 3.17*13.42/22.06 = 1.93A (1.21C)

Is This Right ? EDIT : No Apparently as Winny has just edited his post


winny said:


> petrev,
> 
> I forgot... If your Ubat = 22.06 and URMS = 17.2, then your durt-cycle is 0.608. If your DC-average current is 3.17 A with that duty-cycle, your RMS-current is 2.47 A. This method is a bit inaccurate (due to the nature of how DMMs measure signals lik this) but most probably within a +- 10 % error-margin.




If so then maybe I can go to 18V ? - Yippee (Scrub That)
EDIT - No - Winnys calculations say the cells are at about 1.5C @ 17.2V (2.47/1.6=1.54C) as expected !

Ah Well . . .
Pete

ps Winny can you explain your calculation ofTrue Current from Duty Cycle from my figures ? What is the right formula ?

Ta


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## winny (Jun 29, 2006)

petrev,

Your batteries can always take more abuse, it's just a matter of how much more and how much money you are willing to spend trying. =)

As URMS = Ubat * sqrt (duty-cycle), then duty-cycle = (URMS/Ubat)^2

IRMS = IDCmean * sqrt (duty-cycle)

Did that make any sense to you?


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## petrev (Jun 29, 2006)

winny said:


> petrev,
> 
> Your batteries can always take more abuse, it's just a matter of how much more and how much money you are willing to spend trying. =)
> 
> ...



Gotcha Winny

I didn't *sqrt my duty cycle* - stupid me ! ! !

or to put it another way 

Irms = IDCmean * (URMS/Ubat) = 3.17*17.2/22.06 = 2.47A

Cool Thanks
Pete

ps Must get some RAW cells as all this putting in and out of the bulb and remembering to set to 5V before I switch off is getting to me . . .


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## DCFluX (Jun 29, 2006)

Picked up some of the Decostar IRC bulbs finnally, currently testing the 50W 10 degree spot. 

I am not that impressed, I thought my Westinghouse 75W bulb with a custom ground glass reflector puts out more light. Although the IRC is considerably whiter. I will have to do some more testing tonight though. 

BTW, I run 12 Energizer 2500mAH un-regulated in a Modamag with a KIU socket.

For future reference though:

West-Lite in Phoenix. They are a Sylvania distributor. Gary Parmenter ​ Their phone number is 602 437 0375.​ 
And as for getting Halostar IRC bulbs

>The Decostar Bi-pin IR lamps are available in Europe and Canada but not
>in the US and not through
>Osram Sylvania. I have asked our product marketing manager if he is
>aware of sources where you could
>Get a couple and will let you know.


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## elnino (Jun 29, 2006)

Just a note to let you know I have sent PayPal for six IRC lamps. Thanks.


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## petrev (Jun 29, 2006)

BEAMSHOTS - Yesterday

STRION - 1/100 F5.0 (Incan-WB)




Osram 64275AX-35W (6C-NiMh) - 1/100 F5.0 (Incan-WB)




Osram IRC-35W ([email protected]) - 1/100 F5.0 (Incan-WB)




Osram 64275AX-35W - 1.6sec F4.5 18mm




Osram IRC-35W - 1.6sec F4.5 18mm




Need I say - NICE

Pete


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## dizzy (Jun 29, 2006)

Hi Pete,

Nice back yard! Oh, and the light kicks A$$ too.





Later, Mike


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## andrewwynn (Jun 30, 2006)

though it might not be very accurate because the amount of overdrive.. the re-rater says only 13.27V at 3.17A.. at 17V the estimate is closer to 3.63. if you have a bench power supply and a light meter it's definitely the best way to get an accurate setting. 

-awr


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## andrewwynn (Jun 30, 2006)

winny said:


> cnjl3,
> 
> It all depends on how soft lifetime you can afford on your bulb. As I wrote earlier in this thread IIRC, they would live up to about 21-22 V before the fillament melted. 18.6 V is almost a bit moderate  .



Most of my real-world testing is at 18.6V.. but the main bench 50W IRC lamp that has seen the most on/off cycles.. has gotten quite dark inside the lamp envelope.. still works and is quite bright but i'm sure not as bright as new.

I hope to run a bulb to its death at 18.6 or 19V and see what the bulb life is to try to get a fine-tuning of the equation. 

My relatively new experience to IRC lamps does give me an educated guess that the break-even point of loss in lumens and bulb life is right about 18.5 to 19.5V.. based on the one lamp that is getting really dark and that the 50W lamp pushed to 18.6V does about match the output of the USL. 

So.. thanks mucho for winny to do the 'upper limit' test for the IRC lamps.. it gave me the courage to use 18-19V 'for real'.. 

I would try to figure out the accurate PIR setting using a light meter, i think that's the best way to do so. 

-awr


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## petrev (Jun 30, 2006)

andrewwynn said:


> though it might not be very accurate because the amount of overdrive.. the re-rater says only 13.27V at 3.17A.. at 17V the estimate is closer to 3.63. if you have a bench power supply and a light meter it's definitely the best way to get an accurate setting.
> 
> -awr



Hi Andrew

No Bench - No Power Supply - No Light Meter ! ! !

My 3.17A is apparently a mean reading ! Anyway its what my meter reads ! ! !

My calculated Irms is (now) 2.47A !

My meter (or something) must be really off as at PIR calculated 17.2V very nice and bright and white so can't be 13.27V as presume would be rather yellow and pale ! ! !

Lost In Measurements
Pete


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## andrewwynn (Jun 30, 2006)

here is a very interesting way to solve your problem.. go to amp-hours :-D

run the light start to finish.. now you have minutes.. divide by 60 to get hours.

now take you can 1.5AH / hours.. say it runs 075H.. means 2A. well that means 2A x 21.6V = 43.2W.. ignoring conversion losses.. you can estimate 13.5v.

I will be very interested to see the results of a full-run how many minutes it can run.

-awr


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## petrev (Jun 30, 2006)

andrewwynn said:


> here is a very interesting way to solve your problem.. go to amp-hours :-D
> 
> run the light start to finish.. now you have minutes.. divide by 60 to get hours.
> 
> ...



Hi Andrew 

Funny that - Charging batteries as we speak (DSDx3) - had the same idea - I'll let you know as soon as I do the run

Cheers Pete

ps How do you get from 43.2W to 13.5V

EDIT 4-Ready 2-Cooking  12.15 (BST)


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## petrev (Jun 30, 2006)

andrewwynn said:


> here is a very interesting way to solve your problem.. go to amp-hours :-D
> 
> run the light start to finish.. now you have minutes.. divide by 60 to get hours.
> 
> ...



Hi Andrew 

Done the Run ! (They get really hot these Bigger Bulbs ! 80F here in Blighty today )

Finally got a cumulative total of . . . . . . *28min. 34sec.*

1.5Ah for 28.5min (0.475Hr) => 3.15A x 21.6V = *68.2W*

Sorry but you have to give me the final value ? ? ? What is the formula you are using ? 

My Cells are 1.6Ah AWs does that make any difference (you used 1.5Ah in your example ? are you using sensible lower real capacity at this drain rate ?)

? ? ?

Cheers Pete


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## winny (Jun 30, 2006)

petrev,

awr is correct. If your cells are rated for 1.5C and 1500 mAh, you can pull 1.5*1.5*21.6 = 48.6 W as "most". If you don't need/plan to use all 500 cycles or whatever they are rated for, you can pull more. I recall AW saying 2C was considered safe but would reduce battery life. Feel the cells, if they are getting hot, you pull too much current. If they are protected, you won't be able to do that.


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## petrev (Jun 30, 2006)

winny said:


> petrev,
> 
> awr is correct. If your cells are rated for 1.5C and 1500 mAh, you can pull 1.5*1.5*21.6 = 48.6 W as "most". If you don't need/plan to use all 500 cycles or whatever they are rated for, you can pull more. I recall AW saying 2C was considered safe but would reduce battery life. Feel the cells, if they are getting hot, you pull too much current. If they are protected, you won't be able to do that.



Hi Winny

Would seem I am drawing about 2C - cells get warm but everything gets hot from the lamp so ! ! ! can't really tell !

Protected but the New kind that let 4A go (+/-0.5) ?

Love the Beam

Pete


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## andrewwynn (Jun 30, 2006)

magic :-D

use the hotrater.. http://hotrater.rouse.com 

plug in the starting values for the IRC lamp and do a 'goal seek' of power and have it change voltage... the easy way might be to email/post the minutes and i'll do the work


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## petrev (Jun 30, 2006)

andrewwynn said:


> magic :-D
> 
> use the hotrater.. http://hotrater.rouse.com
> 
> plug in the starting values for the IRC lamp and do a 'goal seek' of power and have it change voltage... the easy way might be to email/post the minutes and i'll do the work




Hi Andrew 

See #61 a few back



> . . . Done the Run ! (They get really hot these Bigger Bulbs ! 80F here in Blighty today )
> 
> Finally got a cumulative total of . . . . . . *28min. 34sec.* . . . etc.



Let us know what you think about my Li-Ion abuse - seems to be about 2C

Cheers Pete

ps. if you post the HotRater results that would be great too


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## winny (Jul 1, 2006)

petrev,

Post what you need rerated so anyone can do it for you. awr is in the "wrong" time zone. 
I'll post my bulb-drive calculator once it gets a better look and feel.


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## andrewwynn (Jul 1, 2006)

my math works out to about 18.1V, 3.76A.. so the duty cycle of about 3.15/3.76 = 84%.. 18.1 is a nice place to have the IRC lamps.. and looks like your 17 was probably a decent place to go since 3.15 is slightly over 2C.. 

I run my M66 at over 2C with smaller cells.. it will diminish the total recharges but won't have much serious effect other than that. 

I love the drive calculator winny.. so much more simple than using the excel spreadsheet.. 

I have a 'tweak' to the formulas to make the IRC lamps match better to measured values.


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## petrev (Jul 1, 2006)

andrewwynn said:


> my math works out to about 18.1V, 3.76A.. so the duty cycle of about 3.15/3.76 = 84%.. 18.1 is a nice place to have the IRC lamps.. and looks like your 17 was probably a decent place to go since 3.15 is slightly over 2C..
> 
> I run my M66 at over 2C with smaller cells.. it will diminish the total recharges but won't have much serious effect other than that.
> 
> ...



Hi Andrew

Can you tell me what your figures refer to ?

My PIR1 set to 17.0
My measured Itail = 3.17A and Vbatt = 22.06V and Vlamp13.42 (17.2V Calc)
Total RunTime 28.5min
1.6Ah for 28.5min (1.6/0.475Hr) => 3.37A x 21.6V = 72.8W [2.1C] 


Where do your values of 3.15 and 3.76 and 18.1 etc come from ?


Sorry if I'm being dense.

Cheers Pete

ps Winny - your little progette looks fine already.


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## andrewwynn (Jul 1, 2006)

i always got in trouble in school for not showing my work also 

you repdated some of the work, i think i might have a bit of an error.. i was using 1.5AH for the cells.. 

re-working:

1.6AH / .475H = 72.8W as you calculated.. i would round that down just a bit for losses and i will use 72W and do a goal seek with hotrater:

Now it actually works out to a much higher value.. [email protected] 

I can't remember 100% if the 3.0A i'm using in the hotrater was measured but i think it is.. 36W, 3.0A, 12.0V for the base. 

pushing the cells over 2C.. my original figures are probably closer.. you aren't going to get 1.6AH from the cells at 2C.. 

say you get 1.45AH.. / .475 = 3.05A x 21.6v = 65.93W (multiply by .475 to reality-check watt-hours = 31.32.. which sounds 'about right' for a six-pack of 17670s). 

so.. goal-seek on 65W with hotrater: 

Now the numbers are: 
17.57 Vbulb, 3.70A.. 1836 torch lumen.. 43.5 L/W.. and somewhere between 8 and 19 hrs bulb life (still honing that formula).. you will get a much higher lumen and L/W using the standard hotrater.. i've determined that the lumen formula must be modified for IRC lamps. changing the exponent to 3 vs 3.5 is doing a better job. 

if you have a way to pull 3A from the batteries to get a more accurate assessment of AH for the base you can get closer.. there is some pretty decent leeway in this method, but things are in the ballpark for sure. 

-awr


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