# Photos of inserts for Aluminum ...



## wquiles (Oct 23, 2009)

I recently ordered a 5/8" solid carbide boring bar using CCMT/CCGT 32.xx inserts, so just like I did for my CNMG 43x turning/facing bar, I ordered Aluminum-specific inserts from these guys (thanks Barry!):
CCGT 32.51 AK H01, .016 nose radius inserts ...

So, since I do happen to have a camera, which I am not afraid to use, I took a few pictures of these inserts :devil:

CCGT 32.51 AK H01, .016 nose radius inserts:







Here with my larger CNMG 432 inserts:











Close ups of the CCGT:

















Close ups of the CNMG:
















Both, side view:






And here compared (on the far right) with a "standard" or generic CNMG insert:


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## darkzero (Oct 23, 2009)

Nice pics. I have those same exact 32.51 CCGT inserts. My first one was from Korloy 32.51 CCGT-AK that I picked up at my local Travers. 

I loved it so much I decided to pick up 10 more but after coming across the latheinsert site from a post by the owner on machining forum as well as talk of them by you I took a chance & ordered 10 from them. I was surprised when the inserts were dropped shipped directly from Toolmex. The box says made in Korea on it, the Korloy inserts are made in Korea too. I honestly believe they are exactly the same insert.

My plan initially was to use them from roughing after they started to become dull. However I'm still using the first tip on the Korloy, even though I use it for moderate roughing (well in the case of my mini lathe) & it has had some BUEing at times, it's still very sharp & leaves a great finish. I haven't tried it on steel though but it does work awesome on titanium too.


Korloy on the left, TMX on the right.....identical!


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## precisionworks (Oct 24, 2009)

> I was surprised when the inserts were dropped shipped directly from Toolmex.


I have quite a few Bison-TMX items (boring bars, tool holders, ER-40 collet set, inserts, etc.). Some are drop shipped from TMX, some are stocked by the distributor. They have some fall promos that run through the end of the year:

http://www.toolmex.com/whats-new/special-promotions.cfm

If you have a tech question, call 800-992-4766 and they are happy to help. While you're on the phone, ask if they have a "sample pack" of three CNMG-4xx inserts, or see if one is available in CCGT32 :thumbsup:


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## darkzero (Oct 25, 2009)

Toolmex really are happy to help. Back when I was looking to purchase my new jaws they were very helpful & answered all my questions without hesitation, not once did they sound like I was wasting their time. 

However in the end after getting a price quote I wanted to order from them but they told me they don't sell directly to the public & I had to go through one of their distributors. No problem & I ordered them through MSC (they even asked what price Toolmex quoted me & charged me that price including shipping). So how does one go about getting in on their promos. Or was my case only because they were Bison replacement parts or because I'm not a shop?


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## precisionworks (Oct 25, 2009)

> how does one go about getting in on their promos.


Click on the link on the promo page for the items that interest you and look up an item number. Then call a Bison distributor & ask what the promo price is. 

Tom Johnson at Johnson Cutting Tools is one of the nicest tooling distributors that you'll find. He runs a one man shop & primarily distributes Titan USA (which is awesome), but he can also order Bison. I just spoke with him & it sounded like he was still drinking his first cup of coffee but he said he'd be happy to order anything Bison for you. If you have some open account references (MSC, Grainger, McMaster, Enco, etc.) he can set you up for Net 30, but he is also fine with credit card payment. 

248.442.9482

Bison-TMX makes a million items, more or less, and everything I've seen or used is best quality. Every bit as good as the nicest USA or Euro tooling.


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## precisionworks (Oct 27, 2009)

I just got off the phone with Tom Johnson & my bank account is crying 

One Bison high precision keyless chuck for the drill press that got the VFD, $109. Guaranteed to have no more than .0005" TIR.

One Bison shell mill R-8 arbor for the new face mill, $56.50. That price is $25 lower than anyone else on the web.

Two Silver & Deming reduced shank drills, $56. Titan USA brand, which I expect will be as nice as Precision Twist.

The Bison fall sale prices are really attractive.


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## wquiles (Oct 28, 2009)

My coolant-ready solid carbide 5/8" bar arrived, and it cuts beautifully:






















Next to my 7/8" CNMG 43x bar:


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## precisionworks (Oct 28, 2009)

I have to ask ... why do you have *two *Aloris 5C collet blocks. One collect block can be used to hold either the 5/8" or the 7/8" bar.


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## wquiles (Oct 28, 2009)

precisionworks said:


> I have to ask ... why do you have *two *Aloris 5C collet blocks. One collect block can be used to hold either the 5/8" or the 7/8" bar.



You have to ask??? Isn't the photo clear enough??? It is so that I can leave those bars installed and ready to go for when I need to use them :naughty:

I mean, who wants to setup the boring bar for each use? That would be un-efficient, un-American, and just plain uncivilized


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## KowShak (Oct 29, 2009)

wquiles said:


> You have to ask??? Isn't the photo clear enough??? It is so that I can leave those bars installed and ready to go for when I need to use them :naughty:
> 
> I mean, who wants to setup the boring bar for each use? That would be un-efficient, un-American, and just plain uncivilized



The short answer is "because I can"


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## wquiles (Oct 29, 2009)

KowShak said:


> The short answer is "because I can"



Basically just pure convenience and efficiency. I do a lot of the 1xD's so I am always looking for ways to lower the amount of time it takes me to do each one, so with these 5C holders, the two most used boring bars remain adjusted and ready for use, so it really saves time when I move from one operation to the other.

If it where not because MSC had them at almost 1/2 off, I would have never consider having two of them. I first got one of these Aloris 5C holders and after using it for a short while I noted how much stiffer it was to hold a boring bar in these compared to the "traditional" cutting tool/boring bar holders, so I went ahead and got the second one before the special was over. In fact, I will try to get a 3rd one soon as that might be a great way to do drilling using the automatic carriage power/feed, to get an even better finish.


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## precisionworks (Oct 29, 2009)

> I will try to get a 3rd one soon



How about today or tomorrow :nana:

25% off at MSC when you buy 5 or more items

promo code *WEB25A

*http://metalworking.mscdirect.com/CGI/NNSRHMW


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## precisionworks (Oct 29, 2009)

While on the subject of inserts, a shipment just arrived from Rani Tool

http://www.ranitool.com/

If you phone them, ask for Vic as he has 20+ years experience in machining. I was directed to Rani Tool by a Canadian company that cannot directly sell to USA customers ... but take a look at their inventory clearance prices 

http://www.tysontool.com/ClearanceItems071509.pdf


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## precisionworks (Oct 30, 2009)

> I will try to get a 3rd one soon as that might be a great way to do drilling using the automatic carriage power/feed, to get an even better finish.



Or you could buy the drill chuck holder 
http://cgi.ebay.com/Aloris-BXA-35-E...QQptZBI_Tool_Work_Holding?hash=item439b186b05


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## wquiles (Oct 30, 2009)

precisionworks said:


> Or you could buy the drill chuck holder
> http://cgi.ebay.com/Aloris-BXA-35-E...QQptZBI_Tool_Work_Holding?hash=item439b186b05



You are always looking out for me ... unfortunately my bank account is the one that suffers :shakehead

At any rate, getting a third one of the 5C holders or the drill for the BXA will have to wait, as I got a good deal on an used CNC-100 Dorian cut-style knurler, so no funds for a while ...

Of course, it comes with an 1" shank ... don't you hate it when getting tools equals a new project


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## precisionworks (Oct 30, 2009)

Is it like this one:

http://www.drillspot.com/products/522520/dorian_cnc-100-1-2_small_diameter_cnc_modular_knurling_tool

Or is it like this:

http://www.drillspot.com/products/5...-r_straddle_forming_cnc_modular_knurling_tool


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## wquiles (Oct 30, 2009)

Like the first one, but the next larger model => CNC-100-2-R

Dorian CNC-100-2-R at MSC ...


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## precisionworks (Oct 31, 2009)

That's a very nice tool, especially since cut knurling requires just a fraction of the force of pressure knurling - ideal for aluminum lights :twothumbs

If you ever want to get different pitch wheels, look at Knurltec:

http://www.knurltec.com/index.htm


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## wquiles (Oct 31, 2009)

Well, for once I can't blame you for this tool (there is always a first time for everything!). This time the fault lies in me listening/getting advice from Fred (PhotonFanatic) for this tool, and based on the beautiful work he has done here:
Learning to lathe things ...


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## precisionworks (Oct 31, 2009)

> for once I can't blame you for this tool


I've looked at them, as one would be ideal for my South Bend ... but never have found a nice one at a price less than $500.

The CNC websites have quite a few people using cut knurlers. Some run the lathe around 1000-1200 rpm with .008" IPR feed, and all recommend lots of lubrication to wash away the metal fines. Your mister, with as much air pressure as possible & pointed right at the knurling wheels, should do a nice job.


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## wquiles (Oct 31, 2009)

precisionworks said:


> I've looked at them, as one would be ideal for my South Bend ... but never have found a nice one at a price less than $500.
> 
> The CNC websites have quite a few people using cut knurlers. Some run the lathe around 1000-1200 rpm with .008" IPR feed, and all recommend lots of lubrication to wash away the metal fines. Your mister, with as much air pressure as possible & pointed right at the knurling wheels, should do a nice job.



I picked up this one for $450:
Ebay listing ...

Supposedly almost new, just used a few times, with extra knurling wheels. I will post some pics once I get it.

Will


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## PEU (Oct 31, 2009)

this one looks weird, never saw one like it before: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=300308475453 also fom Dorian


Pablo


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## precisionworks (Oct 31, 2009)

You see that type of tooling mostly in a Swiss screw machine or turret lathe, but it would work just as well in a manual or CNC machine.

http://pdf.directindustry.com/pdf/dorian-tool-international/knurling-tools/7164-116699-_35.html


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## darkzero (Mar 6, 2010)

Will, or anyone else who uses the TMX CNMG-HA inserts, do your inserts have ground sides/edges? Although these are alumn specific inserts I'm not happy with the finish they give at all.

I know these are CN*M*G & are negative inserts but since they are supposed to be alumn specific & have a polished face I figure they would have ground sides for a nice sharp edge. The ones I got don't have a nice sharp edge at all. They do work great on steel though.


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## precisionworks (Mar 6, 2010)

> I figure they would have ground sides for a nice sharp edge.


Whaddaya expect for $5, the Taj Mahal? 

The low priced inserts are sintered (pressed into a mold). For $12-$15, ground inserts in CNMG-HA are available from a number of sources.


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## wquiles (Mar 6, 2010)

I don't have any from that source. I bought my Al-specific CNMF inserts from LatheInserts.com, and they have been working pretty good for me on Al and Copper:
http://www.latheinserts.com/product.sc?productId=9&categoryId=88


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## darkzero (Mar 6, 2010)

wquiles said:


> I don't have any from that source. I bought my Al-specific CNMF inserts from LatheInserts.com, and they have been working pretty good for me on Al and Copper:
> http://www.latheinserts.com/product.sc?productId=9&categoryId=88


 
Will, what source are you referring to? The inserts I am referring are the same inserts you have pictured in this thread from latheinserts.com which are the Toolmex CNMG-HA. I came across mine on ebay though & they are all new. Was posting cause I was curious cause I don't seem to get that great of a finish on alumn & copper with the ones I got.  Thought maybe they were used or something but they look unused.




precisionworks said:


> Whaddaya expect for $5, the Taj Mahal?
> 
> The low priced inserts are sintered (pressed into a mold). For $12-$15, ground inserts in CNMG-HA are available from a number of sources.


 
LOL. I guess you are right. Perhaps I am just "spoiled" by positive inserts. My primary insert that I have been using is the TMX CCGT which is also pictured in this thread on Will's boring bar. They're $5 too & they're ground. 

After trying these TMX CNMG-HA inserts I thought I had defects or something after all I did get them for cheap on ebay. But what are the chances of getting defective inserts let alone 10 of them. 

When I bought my Dorian MCLNR holder, I picked up one generic (Triumph brand) uncoated C2 CNMG 432 insert so I could start using it. This insert was just under $5, to my surprise it has ground sides & has a very nice sharp edge. I love how these cut non-ferrous metals & even Ti, very nice finisih. But I used it to turn some steel & I quickly chipped the weak shapr ground edges.

Here's that insert next to the TMX CNMG-HA. You can see how sharp the edge is compared to the TMX insert & the ground sides.














So wanting ground edges to use on the softer metals I picked up some Mitsubishi CN*G*G inserts at $5.99 ea. Now these are what I was expecting from the TMX inserts & leave a very nice finish like the CCGT inserts even though these are still negative inserts. Polished face with very sharp edges. Again next to the TMX insert.













So I take it the TMX CNMG-HA are not supposed to have ground edges after all they are CN*M*G. Rather than reselling them as I got a good deal on them I'll just keep them to use on steel. They seem to work better for steel & have a nice strong edge compared to the ground inserts. No chipped edges so far using on steel.


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## wquiles (Mar 6, 2010)

Sorry Will - I was just trying to say I did not get mine from Ebay. I did not realize that they were the same item. Regardless of the source, they seem to be cutting really well for me - I don't know why. Maybe something to do with the fact I always use cutting fluid (Kool Mist before, and now the Accu-Lube)? 

At any rate the ground inserts that you show there do indeed look to have even finer/sharper edges - me likes!


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## precisionworks (Mar 7, 2010)

> these are alumn specific inserts I'm not happy with the finish they give at all.


If I had to guess, you're running these inserts with 6061-T6 ... which is horrid to turn under the best of conditions. As Will Q said, using either flood, mist, or MQL should give much nicer results.


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## darkzero (Mar 7, 2010)

wquiles said:


> they seem to be cutting really well for me - I don't know why. Maybe something to do with the fact I always use cutting fluid (Kool Mist before, and now the Accu-Lube)?


 
Thanks for confirming Will.




precisionworks said:


> If I had to guess, you're running these inserts with 6061-T6 ... which is horrid to turn under the best of conditions. As Will Q said, using either flood, mist, or MQL should give much nicer results.


 
Yes, 6061 & also tried some 6Al4V. No lubrication systems here, just some Tap Magic Aluminum & Boelube.


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## PEU (Mar 8, 2010)

Speaking of inserts, I saw these 6 point threading inserts the other day:
http://www.vargus.com/vardex/news/new.aspx?newID=18&newsCatId=2


Pablo


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## darkzero (Mar 11, 2010)

Here's another alumn specific insert to this thread. Not as purdy with the aggressive chip breaker as the TMX inserts but leaves an awesome finish as well.


Iscar CCGT 32.51






Unknown CCGT 32.5x insert that came on my "new" 3/4" boring bar. 






Got really lucky on this 3/4" x 10" solid carbide bar & I'm very excited to have it! 






Here it next to my 1/2" x 7" bar which was "big" for my 8x14.






Not a 1" monster like Barry's but it's a monster to me. To give you an idea how big it is.







First job will be a Mag3C bored to fit 3x26500s.


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## StrikerDown (Mar 11, 2010)

Very nice Will! :twothumbs

Looks too organized. :thumbsup:

I need more tool holders.


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## darkzero (Mar 11, 2010)

Thanks Ray. I hate to have a mess around the lathes. I really need to break the habit & get those tool holders off of there but it's so convenient.


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## wquiles (Mar 21, 2010)

So I got another insert to "play" with, although not exactly for Al. This one is a PCD tipped insert:





















The tool holder is a 3/4" shank, which I picked on Ebay for $15-20:
















Luckily I also picked up a factory-made 3/4" BXA holder for about $30 on Ebay, so I had to cut/adjust nothing this time 
















Of course, being clumsy that I am I chipped the edge (extremely delicate/brittle) when I was trying to center it on the lathe, so I decided (since it was very narrow tip 431 insert) to round the edge on the diamond wheel to try to see if I can achieve an even nicer finish that would last a LONG time. Of course the goal is to compare its finish on Al compared to my 432 CNMG Al inserts. Here is what I found when comparing both inserts on 6061 Al, always using the Accu-Lube LB-3000 lubricant, spindle at 1200 RPM's.

Here is the approx. 3/4" dia 6061 "test piece" at normal resolution. From right to left, the first 3 bands are done with the new PCD "rounded" insert at various passes, and the 4th is my standard CNMG Al insert::






and here it is cropped from the full-size image:






Another shot, again small, then cropped from the full size picture:












Here are the respective two tools/inserts being compared with the test piece rotated to match:







So far I like this modified/rouned tip PCD insert, but I have to use it a lot more to be certain. So what do you guys think?


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## 65535 (Mar 22, 2010)

I think I would cry if I chipped me PCD insert.

I think you'll find that on softer aluminum, you will get that jimping due to the amount of overhang on the insert itself above the steel spacer. It seems you have poor contact towards the cutting edge which is probably why the shoulder came out the way it did.

If you were working with tool steel tungsten or carbide, I'd say the PVD is worth the cost, but in all honesty the proper Alu. insert looks better.


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## precisionworks (Mar 22, 2010)

For aluminum turning or milling with PCD, speeds are normally 2000 - 6000 sfpm. That means a 1" diameter part needs to run between 7600 rpm and 22,800 rpm. I've read reports where shops have run PCD as low as 800-900 sfpm, with very light cuts, but it is meant to run fast. Quite a few of the newer CNC machines have high speed spindles which will run at these speeds.

PCD is cost effective on long part runs, especially in abrasive materials (sand cast aluminum, carbon fiber, G10, etc.)


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## wquiles (Mar 22, 2010)

Thanks for the info. The one insert was not too much on Ebay, so it was sure fun to play with, even if I am running it way too slow.


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## TOOLING GURU (Mar 22, 2010)

wquiles said:


> Thanks for the info. The one insert was not too much on Ebay, so it was sure fun to play with, even if I am running it way too slow.


 

Check out www.ranitool.com for Becker PCD. There's a nice video if you click "Rani Tool on You Tube" .If you're interested in diamond I can help. We have lots of PCD to fit the positive tools, ie CCMT,DCMT etc. Negative rake inserts even with the PCD cocked back to simulate a positive won't perform as well as a true ISO ( 7 or 11 degree positive ) tool in aluminum and other non-ferrous stuff. When you look for PCD on EBAY keep an eye out for the positive inserts.

I also have PCD with chipbeakers in them which is pretty unique. These run from $89.00 - $138.00. Pricey yep, but if your running lights out with bar feeders and need to hold tolerances, finish and control chips - ---priceless! 

PCD is awesome in production enviornments. I have a customer that was getting 3500/pcs per edge with a polished carbide and now get over 55,000 with the diamond with a lot better finish. No insert indexing, offsetting or mistakes for over a week!

Okay back to lurk mode.

Vic


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## wquiles (Mar 22, 2010)

TOOLING GURU said:


> Check out www.ranitool.com for Becker PCD. There's a nice video if you click "Rani Tool on You Tube" .If you're interested in diamond I can help. We have lots of PCD to fit the positive tools, ie CCMT,DCMT etc. Negative rake inserts even with the PCD cocked back to simulate a positive won't perform as well as a true ISO ( 7 or 11 degree positive ) tool in aluminum and other non-ferrous stuff. When you look for PCD on EBAY keep an eye out for the positive inserts.
> 
> I also have PCD with chipbeakers in them which is pretty unique. These run from $89.00 - $138.00. Pricey yep, but if your running lights out with bar feeders and need to hold tolerances, finish and control chips - ---priceless!
> 
> ...



Thanks much Vic. I had seen that video earlier, and I just watched it again - very cool and informative :thumbsup: . I learn a lot from asking Barry and others for advice, but I learn far more by simply spending time on the lathe and playing/experimenting with various things - books are awesome, but certainly not enough for this hobby.

At the rate I use the inserts that I already have, it will take me years before I need to buy more, so I am not interested in PCD for a production setup - I just wanted to play with one since I have been reading about them in the Sandvik on-line course. Then again, having "one" insert for turning Al that would give me the shorter/smaller chips would be definitely worth the money and be safer as I too get those long, dangerous curly chips with my current inserts 

Will


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## precisionworks (Apr 13, 2010)

One of my Grainger.com bargain holders is also an MDJN that holds the same DNGG, DNGP, DNMA, DNMG, DNMM, DNMP - 43x insert. Being somewhat cheap, I bought 10 Kenna inserts for $20 delivered on eBay - hard to go wrong for $2 each 

I also saw a must have for you, Will. Kenna DCGT-432LF Grade KCD-25 ... which indicates PCD coated (versus yours which is PCD tipped). If your bank account can stand the hit, the cost is $9.99 
http://cgi.ebay.com/KENNAMETAL-DIAM...emQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item53d39498ca

Vic at Rani Tool is checking on their aluminum turning-boring insert for my other Grainger holder, a SDJC that takes uses the DCMT or DCGT - 32.5x insert. The _55_° rhombic shape will work well for getting into tight corners, and the .008" radius will be a great finisher. EDIT: I purchased a package of DCGT - 32.50.5 aluminun specific (but also works as a Ti finisher) for $6.57 each. 

http://www.ranitool.com/promo-AluPro.pdf


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## wquiles (Apr 14, 2010)

precisionworks said:


> I also saw a must have for you, Will. Kenna DCGT-432LF Grade KCD-25 ... which indicates PCD coated (versus yours which is PCD tipped). If your bank account can stand the hit, the cost is $9.99
> http://cgi.ebay.com/KENNAMETAL-DIAM...emQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item53d39498ca


Cool - something new to try or "play" with - thanks


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## wquiles (Apr 19, 2010)

I am now a believer in how effective PCD can be on Al, even more so when they have a chipbreaker!

I just tried another cheap PCD insert to play with and this one does have a built-in chipbreaker. I just used it for the first time this weekend while machining one of my 1xD custom Al bodies, and it is performing much better than the Al-specific insert I was using, and creating awesome smaller chips, which make some operations (like on the tailcap which has less clearance due to being partially enclosed) much easier and "much" faster now:






































Here is the insert I was using before. It also cuts the Al well, but no mater what I try I always get longer stringy chips:











I have been also using a PCD insert for cleaning up the edge after cutting the bodies to length on the bandsaw, and I absolutely love this insert due to the awesome sharpness at the cutting edge. This insert cuts the Al easily and remains very sharp with no BUE.

Here is the pic of the insert (edge not cleaned yet):






Here is a pic of the body after cleaning up with the PCD insert:






This is all cut with the Accu-Lube lubricator and the lathe at my current max. spindle RPM of 1200. Once I do the VFD conversion I will be able to test/play at even higher cutting speeds, since when I was cutting inside the tailcap with the new insert, it felt that I could go much faster.


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## precisionworks (Apr 19, 2010)

Even though you like the PCD inserts, you should try the AluPro inserts from Vic at Rani Tool. The DCGT-32.50.5-RAL is an awesome finisher, and the cost is just $6.57 each. I haven't yet tried them on Al, but they finish cut hardened steel like it was butter.


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## wquiles (Apr 19, 2010)

precisionworks said:


> Even though you like the PCD inserts, you should try the AluPro inserts from Vic at Rani Tool. The DCGT-32.50.5-RAL is an awesome finisher, and the cost is just $6.57 each. I haven't yet tried them on Al, but they finish cut hardened steel like it was butter.



I already have AluPro inserts from Vic, and yes, they cut Al great!. I just could not resist experimenting a little with PCD inserts


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## KC2IXE (Apr 21, 2010)

I just tried some aluminum specific inserts I got from Travers (on sale a $6 and change), and frankly, I was getting as good a finish from my my GP inserts (VC930) I was using

Also bought an Portamist after reading the reviews here - helps some, but I was shocked how MUCH air it uses


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## precisionworks (Apr 21, 2010)

I've not tried the Korloy inserts from Travers, but the AluPro from Rani Tool are awesome in aluminum, as well as in steel for light finishing cuts. Most likely some difference in grind, rake face angle, hone or no hone edge treatment, plus a dozen other variables.

http://www.ranitool.com/promo-AluPro.pdf


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## darkzero (Apr 21, 2010)

precisionworks said:


> I've not tried the Korloy inserts


 
I am a fan of Korloy but then again I don't know much & haven't had experience with alot more inserts as you guys. I honestly believe that many of the popular TMX inserts are the same as Korloy (like the pic I posted in this thread). The TMX inserts even say made in Korea & Korloy is a Korean company. Even most of the inserts offered at latheinserts.com which are TMX branded can be found in the Korloy catalog. I visited Korloy at Westec & there's many more that I'd like to try, but to be honest I mainly visited them because of the pretty Korean girl.


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## KC2IXE (Apr 21, 2010)

Not saying I wasn't getting a great finish - but I was already GETTING a great finish


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## PhotonFanatic (Apr 22, 2010)

darkzero said:


> I am a fan of Korloy but then again I don't know much & haven't had experience with alot more inserts as you guys. I honestly believe that many of the popular TMX inserts are the same as Korloy (like the pic I posted in this thread). The TMX inserts even say made in Korea & Korloy is a Korean company. Even most of the inserts offered at latheinserts.com which are TMX branded can be found in the Korloy catalog. I visited Korloy at Westec & there's many more that I'd like to try, but to be honest I mainly visited them because of the pretty Korean girl.



What?? No photos -- of the girl? :devil:


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## KC2IXE (Apr 22, 2010)

Eastec/Westec have a no camera policy if I remember right

Bit more than a month till Eastec. Anyone going besides me? I pretty much have my choice of day, so if you want to meet up...


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## darkzero (Apr 22, 2010)

PhotonFanatic said:


> What?? No photos -- of the girl? :devil:


 
I know, I know, sorry but I was too distracted......by her. :naughty:




KC2IXE said:


> Eastec/Westec have a no camera policy if I remember right


 
Seriously? I had my camera & took pictures in plain view. I saw others taking pictures as well, none of the staff told me anything. :thinking:


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## KC2IXE (Apr 22, 2010)

Guess I'll have to drag at least my little one (The big one would get heavy)


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## precisionworks (Apr 22, 2010)

The last photo is really neat, as not a lot of shops cut Higbee threads (aka quick release threads or oilfield threads). Click on this link to see some at one of the shops where I do repair work:

http://www.rlcbit.com/machineshop.htm

I can only imagine how fast a NC machine kicks out this specialty thread, but a 48" swing Pacemaker does a decent job :thumbsup:


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## darkzero (Apr 22, 2010)

precisionworks said:


> Higbee threads (aka quick release threads or oilfield threads).


 
What is that type of thread used for? 

That last piece he was setting down just came of the machine. Was funny cause the HAAS operator was talking to another guy.....said that he originally had two more before the one that was just finished but some jerk must have stole one. Said he couldn't understand why someone would steal one or how the theif would walk out the convention with it. Well I see a total of three, one is stacked on top of the other. 

I've got some more pics if anyone is interested, not very good pics though & is why I never posted them in the Westec thread.


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## precisionworks (May 11, 2010)

There's a pretty sweet deal posted on the PM site - Curtis (from lathe inserts dot com) is selling the Ripper end mill + five inserts for $180 delivered. One is still left (I got the other :nana

Curt says he has one shop running this at 22000 rpm & a few hundred inches per minute feed ... should do fine in my small mill. NOTE - this is a 1" shank tool, so you'll need the ability to hold that in your mill.






http://www.practicalmachinist.com/v...sories-sale-wanted/sale-1-ripper-mill-204117/


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## precisionworks (May 14, 2010)

Just got this yesterday ...






The kit comes with a Wera T15 Torx driver & a small tube of antiseize (not pictured).






The inserts are nicely ground.






A locating recess on the back of the insert mates with a locating boss on the mill body to assure that the insert does not move under heavy milling pressures.

Nice tool


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## wquiles (May 23, 2010)

Just to keep this thread up to date, here at the Alu-specific inserts from Rani tool that I have:

Also have one of the slightly larger Aluminum-specific CCGT 32.51 (from www.latheinserts.com) for comparison:


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## wquiles (May 26, 2010)

I just did a job for a customer on an Al tailcap, and I don't know what exact Al allow it was, but it cut beautifully with the PDC insert!


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## precisionworks (Jul 27, 2010)

Just a note about the Ripper mill from LatheInserts.com ... it's a dead ringer for the more expensive Mitsubishi BXD4000.

This is a photo from the Mitsu website:






And the Ripper mill photo from the LatheInserts.com website:







The Mitsu gets rave reviews from machining websites, and the Ripper gets those same reviews from me  FWIW, I paid $180 for the Ripper with five inserts, while the Mitsu sells for $391 without any inserts (both in the 1" diameter size, and both are available as face mills). Mitsu rates the tool for 38,000 rpm, not sure what Curt rates his.


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## wquiles (Jul 27, 2010)

Those ground inserts sure look sharp


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## precisionworks (Aug 24, 2010)

Three awesome videos of high speed - high feed machining:

http://www.ranitool.com/YouTube2.htm


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## tino_ale (Sep 30, 2014)

Hey guys,

Along with the PM1236 I got the basic TMX tool set that Matt sells in the DCMT flavor. I chose DCMT over CCMT to get more clearance/angle to access tricky situations and because I thought my 1236 should not excess what a DCMT can take.

Moving on.

I got some TMX DCGT 32.51 AK H01 aluminium inserts to work with both aluminium and titanium (later on).

When searching the recommended depth of cut / feed recommended range, I was shocked TMX specifies this :

Light to medium turning of Aluminum and non Ferrous materials
• Feed Rate = .001 – .020 ipr
• Depth of Cut Range = .040 – .200 inch

The DOC range seems huge, even the smalest recommended DOC is about 1mm of material removing ???

I thought you were supposed to use very low feed and DOC to get the best aluminimum finish ? What did I miss ?

thanks


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## gadget_lover (Sep 30, 2014)

The feed rate and DOC are what you want to use in a production environment to maximize the number of parts per hour AND the life of the tool. We are not doing production, so we can do OK with slower SFM, feeds and DOC

In this specific case the leading edge is very high in relation to the chip breaker. I suspect that a light DOC will allow the aluminum to curl into a long spiral instead of coming off in small chips. I find that every insert has a sweet spot when roughing where you really remove the metal fast and you are literally showered with a fountain of small curly chips. I'd bet that the chipbreaker becomes more effective at about .040. 

I looked at the chipbreaker on this page; http://www.toolmex.com/Products/custom/TechDetails.aspx?itemid=6-DCG-3212

Daniel


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## precisionworks (Sep 30, 2014)

It is difficult to find an insert the does well in both aluminum and titanium. The .51 nose radius if is both extraordinarily sharp and quite delicate. I use that same insert for titanium finish cuts but limit depth of cut to not more than .25 mm. If you push it much harder than that tip life is quite short.


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## tino_ale (Sep 30, 2014)

Thanks. Indeed during my first try I did not cut that deep and the aluminum would curl into long "hair" instead of breaking in chips.
Except if I took very light cuts as I thought it would give the best finish, then it would create tiny chips.
Apparently there is is a range of doc where the chip breaking doesn't work.


Now, I know I will not be using flood coolant on my lathe. My shop is small, not well ventilated and in the house... Flood coolant sounds too smelly and just too messy. So if I turn titanium I doubt I will ever take any kind of roughing cuts to avoid titanium fire. 0.25mm is 0.5mm in diameter reduction, that sounds plenty enough to me.


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## precisionworks (Sep 30, 2014)

tino_ale said:


> ... Now, I know I will not be using flood coolant on my lathe. My shop is small, not well ventilated and in the house... Flood coolant sounds too smelly and just too messy.


WQuiles set up flood & he's never mentioned it being smelly/messy/etc. http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?364617

Titanium is best machined with flood unless you have an endless supply of inserts. Insert life machining Ti under the best of conditions (short & rigid setup, sharp fresh insert designed specifically for Ti, flood coolant at the correct mix, etc.) is much shorter than when machining most other materials. This isn't to say that Ti cannot be machined dry. Anything is possible.

I don't use flood on either the lathe or mill but rather run MQL using Acculube LB2000. IMO it's neither more nor less messy than flood but it's easier to set up on a machine tool not designed for flood (like my mill-drill). The only drawback to MQL is the cost of the applicator - the model I use for the lathe has a retail of $1305. Seems like it cost $150 on eBay. http://www.mscdirect.com/product/details/05651328



> Apparently there is is a range of doc where the chip breaking doesn't work.


Most literature suggests that DOC should at least equal nose radius. Depending on edge treatment it's sometimes possible to run the DOC as small as 2/3 of nose radius & still get good chip breaking. Less than that & it gets iffy quickly.


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## wquiles (Sep 30, 2014)

precisionworks said:


> It is difficult to find an insert the does well in both aluminum and titanium. The .51 nose radius if is both extraordinarily sharp and quite delicate. I use that same insert for titanium finish cuts but limit depth of cut to not more than .25 mm. If you push it much harder than that tip life is quite short.


+1

Exactly what I have found as well. The best insert for Aluminum is a little too delicate but all but the lightest Titanium machining. Lately I have been using the Sanvik H13A inserts which are outstanding in Titanium, and pretty good for Aluminum.






precisionworks said:


> WQuiles set up flood & he's never mentioned it being smelly/messy/etc. http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?364617


Yup. Not smelly at all. That TRIM MicroSol 585XT plus distilled water works wonders with Titanium. Now-a-days I use it for "all" metal cutting. The only time I run the lathe dry is for Delrin.





precisionworks said:


> Titanium is best machined with flood unless you have an endless supply of inserts. Insert life machining Ti under the best of conditions (short & rigid setup, sharp fresh insert designed specifically for Ti, flood coolant at the correct mix, etc.) is much shorter than when machining most other materials. This isn't to say that Ti cannot be machined dry. Anything is possible.


+1

Life of my carbide drill bits and threading taps, and Titanium-specific inserts have been "dramatically" extended once I got the flood coolant running. I delayed running coolant for several years, but once I started with Titanium I quickly gave it a try, and now there is no going back, "specially" when doing cut knurling :devil:








Will


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## darkzero (Oct 1, 2014)

wquiles said:


> Exactly what I have found as well. The best insert for Aluminum is a little too delicate but all but the lightest Titanium machining. Lately I have been using the Sanvik H13A inserts which are outstanding in Titanium, and pretty good for Aluminum.



Yup, I scored a bunch of H13A inserts late last year, like 80 of them. At the rate I'm going with these they will literally last me a lifetime. But hey, at under $2 per insert, who can't pass that up! And that's including shipping. The other 100 inserts behind them were just over $3 per insert, shipped from Germany.







Even though I have enough H13As at my disposal, I still use alumn specific inserts for finishing Ti too, they give me a slightly shinier finish but only noticeable when comparing side by side with the H13A finish. I'll even rough Ti with them but with different style inserts. But I like the H13A cause they're like my general purpose finisher as I use them on most of the metals I machine.






tino_ale said:


> I know I will not be using flood coolant on my lathe. My shop is small, not well ventilated and in the house... Flood coolant sounds too smelly and just too messy. So if I turn titanium I doubt I will ever take any kind of roughing cuts to avoid titanium fire. 0.25mm is 0.5mm in diameter reduction, that sounds plenty enough to me.



I may follow in Will's foot steps someday & start using the flood coolant systems on my lathe, mill, & bandsaw. For now I've been doing just fine even with Ti.

Ti fire you say? As they say, yeah been there done that.....







Those battle scars are gone already, repainted the gap. Just don't get lazy with letting Ti chips & grinding dust pile up (especially the Ti dust), that alone makes a big difference. If you don't have a class D fire extingusher or can't afford one, keep a bag of sand around. Not an alternative but better than nothing & cheap, especially if you go to the sand dunes. Think Ti is bad, magnesium is even worse & topping that is ferro rod. NEVER machine ferro rod dry, ask me how I know!


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## tino_ale (Oct 1, 2014)

precisionworks said:


> WQuiles set up flood & he's never mentioned it being smelly/messy/etc. http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?364617


I have no experience about it obviously, just reading online it seems people usually stay away from coolant in a home shop because they don't want to worry about the coolant getting rancid, stinking (maybe it only smells after a while or gone rancid ?), having some rust issues (although I thought a coolant was specifically designed to NOT cause any rust), etc.
My machine will not see *that* much use. If I have to evacuate the cooland and dry the machine thoroughly after each use, that may be a PITA.
If none of those issues are valid, then it would indeed sounds like a no-brainer to go for it. Might take the plunge but I need to read more about it.



precisionworks said:


> Most literature suggests that DOC should at least equal nose radius. Depending on edge treatment it's sometimes possible to run the DOC as small as 2/3 of nose radius & still get good chip breaking. Less than that & it gets iffy quickly.


In that case I have definetely been too shy for my first chips making attempts!
That leaves me with a question though. Say, I have a scratched OD flashlight body, and I just want to "touch up" the OD to refinish the shine. How would I do that if the smallest cut I'm supposed to take with my finish inserts is that much ? Sometimes there isn't much "meat" there. I need to experiment more DOC, feeds and speeds.




darkzero said:


> Yup, I scored a bunch of H13A inserts late last year, like 80 of them. At the rate I'm going with these they will literally last me a lifetime. But hey, at under $2 per insert, who can't pass that up! And that's including shipping. The other 100 inserts behind them were just over $3 per insert, shipped from Germany.


Well if you have too many, I could get some of them off your hands and you could recoup part of your cost ?
They would have to fit my DCGT 32.51 tool holder though (can't see the size you have from the pic)


Reading all of your experience I'm frustrated I can't get to bring the beers, sit with you for an hour while you're turning some parts, I would learn and absorb so much valuable information so much faster :huh:


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## gadget_lover (Oct 1, 2014)

tino_ale said:


> That leaves me with a question though. Say, I have a scratched OD flashlight body, and I just want to "touch up" the OD to refinish the shine. How would I do that if the smallest cut I'm supposed to take with my finish inserts is that much ? Sometimes there isn't much "meat" there. I need to experiment more DOC, feeds and speeds.



The smallest DOC for proper chip breaking is one thing. The coils you get when doing a finishing pass are different. You can either pause occasionally to let the string break or you can just keep it away from the flashlight. Be REAL careful about that. Those cute springy curls can be razor sharp and strong as steel. They will cut you like a knife. 

If you use a tool ground to be a "shearing tool" you can get .0002 DOC and wispy swarf that floats.

Daniel


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## tino_ale (Oct 2, 2014)

gadget_lover said:


> Be REAL careful about that. Those cute springy curls can be razor sharp and strong as steel. They will cut you like a knife.


We never can be too carefull. I have a tooth brush to evacuate any annoying coil, so my hand/fingers never get too close to them while the lathe is running.
I can see how dangerous those cute curls can be if they wrap around any part of me and get caught in a chuck jaw :green:


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## precisionworks (Oct 2, 2014)

tino_ale said:


> ... reading online it seems people usually stay away from coolant in a home shop because they don't want to worry about the coolant getting rancid, stinking (maybe it only smells after a while or gone rancid ?), having some rust issues (although I thought a coolant was specifically designed to NOT cause any rust), etc.


There are thousands of urban legends & the flood coolant legend goes hand in hand with “never use compressed air to clean a machine tool”. It seems that many experts who make these statements have limited exposure operating machine tools. You have to remember when on the error-net to believe half of what you see & none of what you hear :nana:

Flood coolant doesn’t cause premature aging or hair loss but does dramatically extend insert life & often improves surface finish by eliminating or reducing slip-stick & built up edge (BUE). It also lowers chip temperature well below the ignition point of titanium. I’ve machined just a bit of Ti & have never had a fire as the chips never reach critical temperature.

If machining Ti without coolant (flood/mist/MQL) you may want to adjust surface speed to around *25 sfpm* (for a typical 1” or 25mm body that’s 95 rpm).



> My machine will not see *that* much use. If I have to evacuate the coolant and dry the machine thoroughly after each use, that may be a PITA.


 I don’t know anyone in any shop that does that.


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## tino_ale (Oct 2, 2014)

Sounds good! Just very very counter-intuitive to leave a machine "wet" before going to bed. :duh2:


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## precisionworks (Oct 3, 2014)

tino_ale said:


> ... very counter-intuitive to leave a machine "wet" before going to bed.


I don't know how other machinists work but I was taught from Day 1 to clean my machine at the end of the shift, wipe off the ways & apply a coat of Vactra #2 way oil. You will never ever have a rust issue if this is done every time the lathe is used.


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## tino_ale (Oct 19, 2014)

Ok I have tried turning 7075 Aluminum, the difference is obvious!
Chip breaking is much less a problem on 7075, and it machines shiner, less gummy than 6061.
I would say it is more pleasant to machine.

I am still not really happy about the finish I get on the OD. On the right is 6061, on the left, 7075.





I was turning at 1200rpm, and experimented different DOC and feed.
- DOC did not make much difference
- feed : the faster, the coarser the finish. *Seems it was the one parameter that had the strongest impact on the finish.*

The finish I get on the pics is using the slowest feed available on the PM1236.
I can still see and feel with my fingernail the feed crests on the finish. As if it was a very very fine thread, sort of.

I cannot reach the perfectly flat surface I get when facing, as the slowest feed setting on the crossfeed is much finer than on the carriage feed.

I have tried dry, using WD40, using a cutting oil. Did not make much difference.

What is the secret ?


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## tino_ale (Oct 23, 2014)

Quick question : everything else being equal, would the finish differ between a C shape insert and a D shape insert for external turning and facing ?

I'm happy about my DCxT inserts so far, just curious.


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## wquiles (Oct 23, 2014)

tino_ale said:


> The finish I get on the pics is using the slowest feed available on the PM1236.
> I can still see and feel with my fingernail the feed crests on the finish. As if it was a very very fine thread, sort of.


You "should" feel the crests somewhat. If you are using the machine to advance the cariage, you are basically threading, right?




tino_ale said:


> What is the secret ?


It is a combination of things, but you get the best finish when you use Al-specific inserts with a very sharp edge. What "exact" inserts you are using?


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## tino_ale (Oct 23, 2014)

wquiles said:


> You "should" feel the crests somewhat. If you are using the machine to advance the cariage, you are basically threading, right?



Well technicaly power feedding but yes I guess. I just can't seem to get the same super-smooth finish on the OD compared to facing operation (the feed is slower on the cross slide, and I'm using the slowest feed avaiable on the carriage).



wquiles said:


> It is a combination of things, but you get the best finish when you use Al-specific inserts with a very sharp edge. What "exact" inserts you are using?



I am using :
DCGT 32.51 AK H01 DCGT 11T304 AK C2 Uncoated Polished Turning Insert for Aluminum 10/pack


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## wquiles (Oct 23, 2014)

tino_ale said:


> I am using :
> DCGT 32.51 AK H01 DCGT 11T304 AK C2 Uncoated Polished Turning Insert for Aluminum 10/pack



Awesome. Those are good. 

How are you verifying that the tip of the insert is at the right height compared to the centerline of the piece? What method? What tools are you using to set it?


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## tino_ale (Oct 23, 2014)

To set the height I face a piece. I start with the tool a tad low, it leaves a nipple artifact at the face center.

I then raise it slightly until the nipple dissapear completely and I get a nice flat center. It seems to be pretty precise.

As I have an ongoing issue with my motor (vibration/noise) I have halted any investigation related to surface finish. Once I get a smooth running motor, I hope the finish will improve!


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## wquiles (Oct 23, 2014)

tino_ale said:


> To set the height I face a piece. I start with the tool a tad low, it leaves a nipple artifact at the face center.
> 
> I then raise it slightly until the nipple dissapear completely and I get a nice flat center. It seems to be pretty precise.
> 
> As I have an ongoing issue with my motor (vibration/noise) I have halted any investigation related to surface finish. Once I get a smooth running motor, I how the finish will improve!



That is pretty good, specially since once set, they will (most likely) stay on center. However, note that you can't always use this method to center a tool, so you should have a "plan B" available. There are many tools, but one of my favorite ways of checking is to lightly "pinch" a straight orange piece between the work and the tip of the tool, and then look from the tailstock to see if it is tilted in or out. If it is tilting towards the chuck the tool is a little high. If it is tilting away from the chuck, the tool is a little low. The longer the piece, the more this discrepancy is "magnified". Here is one I just did really chick which is close "enough" for me (it is actually a tad too high):







Still, I agree with you that the vibrations you have now are not good towards achieving a good finish.


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## tino_ale (Oct 23, 2014)

I tried this tip, actually before I used the nipple trick, but with a cutter blade.

Then my lack of experience spoke : I ran the insert too hard against the blade, and chipped my brand new Al specific insert. 
Goobye, money.

Oh well live and learn I guess. What I need is to be much more carefull and/or use a plastic piece.

I had never seen an insert in person before, those tiny guys are actually quite fragile. Impressive how they can, used properly, remove a good amount of metal during the turning operation.


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## wquiles (Oct 23, 2014)

tino_ale said:


> Then my lack of experience spoke : I ran the insert too hard against the blade, and chipped my brand new Al specific insert.
> Goobye, money.



LOL! Why do you think I am using a plastic piece to do it now? 

I learned my lesson when I broke the tip on a "very" expensive PCD insert when I tried with a small metal ruler 





tino_ale said:


> I had never seen an insert in person before, those tiny guys are actually quite fragile. Impressive how they can, used properly, remove a good amount of metal during the turning operation.


Oh yeah. I recently was doing an OD pass at .150" on 6061 (removing .3" diameter per pass!), and I was feeding the carriage so fast that I could feel and hear the motor slow down a lot, yet the insert worked perfectly under that "abuse" :devil:


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## tino_ale (Oct 23, 2014)

Well there must be a bunch of us that had that "Duh" moment! lol

When removing that much material, were you using the same kind of Al specific insert as mine ? Dit you do that with coolant or dry ?

I think I'm still babying my inserts so any data point of situations that work is interesting to me.


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## wquiles (Oct 23, 2014)

tino_ale said:


> Well there must be a bunch of us that had that "Duh" moment! lol


Oh yes. More times I care to admit 




tino_ale said:


> When removing that much material, were you using the same kind of Al specific insert as mine ?


No. I was using these, which are much stronger, yet sharp enough to work with Titanium. Good enough for Aluminum (although not optimal). In fact in this image you can see some of the BUE (built up edge) I got from running the insert to freaking hard:









tino_ale said:


> Dit you do that with coolant or dry ?


Oh yes. Copious amounts of coolant - and I could smell the coolant burning up!










tino_ale said:


> I think I'm still babying my inserts so any data point of situations that work is interesting to me.


For now, 100% agree. You will find on your own what your machine can do. Give it time, go slow, and be safe


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## darkzero (Oct 23, 2014)

Sandvick's H13A grade is great for turning Ti but CNMG is more oriented for material removal. For a MCLN holder I use CNGG for finishing, uncoated polished like for aluminum, CNMP is good too. But I prefer to use a high shear positive insert for final finishing for Ti, I use CCGT or DCGT. With Ti you don't get BUE, since TI is not a good conductor of heat that is more of the issue.


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## precisionworks (Oct 23, 2014)

A good guide for setting tool height is:

.005"-.010" (.125mm-.250mm) _LOW for OD turning & facing_
.005"-.010" (.125mm-.250mm) _HIGH for boring. _
The logic behind the low & high settings is to make sure the tool tip is the first point of contact. If the tool is at dead center when fresh the first point of contact will not stay at dead center as the tip wears down. Slightly low for OD turning/facing or slightly high for boring allows for a small amount of tool tip wear without adversely affecting surface finish.

YMMV.


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## wquiles (Oct 23, 2014)

darkzero said:


> Sandvick's H13A grade is great for turning Ti but CNMG is more oriented for material removal.


Agreed 100%. That is exactly why I used that tool holder and insert to remove the material. I then used an insert with a sharper corner to do the finishing passes 

If I want the Al to be mirror like, I then go to the PCD inserts - fragile, but great for the last pass


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## precisionworks (Oct 23, 2014)

High shear (aluminum optimized) PCD wiper inserts can be effective in producing surface finishes better than Ra 0.5 microns, equal to a ground or super machined finish.


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## ronboult (Jun 10, 2015)

Hi Will and precision works 
I have been using Korloy CCGT 060204-AK ( CCGT21.51-AK) H01 Grade inserts on 6061 Alu with reasonable to good finish on final cuts using WD40 lubricant.
I noted that you both referred to PCD inserts whatever they are. Could either of you please explain what they are, and if they are avalilable to fit SCLR holders.
Thanks
Ron


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## precisionworks (Jun 10, 2015)

Will is the expert on diamond coatings so I'll defer to him for the answer :nana:


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## wquiles (Jun 10, 2015)

precisionworks said:


> Will is the expert on diamond coatings so I'll defer to him for the answer :nana:



No, not the expert. Just that I "really" love them for Delrin and also Aluminum, since they are even sharper than Al-specific inserts - and they seem to last forever with Delrin and Al. That being said, I did try them with Titanium, and they did not last. 

Some reading on PCD and its uses:
https://www.kennametal.com/content/dam/kennametal/kennametal/common/Resources/Catalogs-Literature/Metalworking/Master%20Catalog%20-%20Metric%20Sections/A-11-02679_MasterCat_stationary_PCBN_PCD_inserts_metric.pdf

http://www.mmsonline.com/articles/inserts-for-difficult-materials

http://legacy.secotools.com/template/start.asp?id=6642


Will


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## ronboult (Jun 17, 2015)

Thanks Will
Interesting read. From your comments you seem to be using PCD because of its increased sharpness rather than its production capacity. I assume you are therefore using the finer grades of diamond (KD1400). Also if I read the Kennametal document correctly many of the inserts are available with different nose radii. Any suggestions as to what to try. Also they seem to come with one point, two points or entire top coat. Is there a major difference in cost for these variations?
Ron


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