# Shootout AW vs. Redilast 18650 2900mAh



## LuxLuthor (Sep 24, 2010)

I bought batteries from both vendors at my own expense *(no shilling or favoritism or promotion should be inferred),* and wanted to compare them. They are obviously both using the same Panasonic NCR18650 described in this PDF.

The Redilast cell had the label removed by CPF member csshih in this thread, and I was willing to do the same with one of my AW cells, but given the nearly identical discharge curves and claims by AW, I saw little point in taking one of his apart.

There are a few things to consider in examining these two cells which are closely priced. I charged 2 of each brand in two Pila IBC chargers, figuring it would be the way most of us would charge. I waited until Pila turned green, took cells out, waited 30 mins, then reversed cells in chargers in case one charged a bit higher. Removed re-charged cells when light turned green, and let sit for an hour for charge to stabilize. 

I used my Fluke 189 to set the voltage calibration values in my CBA-II Pro software for each discharge rate, and confirmed there was voltage correlation during the run at several points, which was recently discussed in this thread.1) Interestingly, the cells ended charging with slight differences determined by my Fluke 189AW #1 - 4.188 V
AW #2 - 4.192 V

Readi #1 - 4.206 V
Readi #2 - 4.198 V​2) I don't feel that these cells hold their voltage very well under any kind of a medium load. So you either need to use them in low amp demand applications, use multiple cells to get your delivered voltage under load into the range you need--and then likely use regulation, or settle for a better performing cell under load.

3) At the 5 amp discharge the cells got warm to hot. Best I could measure with Fluke temp probe, and another Laser thermometer, and by touch, I estimate they get up to about 115°F (46°C).

4) The AW cells do not seem to finish the last 100-200mAh as well as the Redi, but it is pretty negligible at that low of voltage anyway. Still, I have to give props to Redi.

5) I did not see the PCB low voltage protection cutoff at 2.5V with the AW cells which concerns me. For the 2A test, I set the endpoint at 2.4V, and the AW's PCB did not terminate. I dropped it to 2.3V cutoff for the 5A test, and it still did not terminate. I ran another test not shown after a partial charge, and found that it terminates at 2.2V which is probably a bit too low if using a low amp draining application. So I have to give a nod to Redilast on this point. The Redi #1 cutoff at 2.42V, and #2 cutoff at 2.33V (I watched the dropping voltage number display box)

6) After the cells reached their endpoints, their voltage rebounded back up to at least 3.25V within 2 minutes. Damage to Lithium Cobalt cells is correlated to how long they spend under 2.5 to 2.7V, so I'm not concerned that even dipping this low is an issue.

​


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## amigafan2003 (Sep 24, 2010)

Looks like we have another reputable 18650 supplier (about time!).


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## Norm (Sep 24, 2010)

LuxLuthor said:


> then reversed cells in chargers


Good job Lux, I gather you meant to say swapped. :wave:
Norm


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## LuxLuthor (Sep 24, 2010)

Norm said:


> Good job Lux, I gather you meant to say swapped. :wave:
> Norm



Yeah, did the old change-a-roo to make sure there wasn't a preferential charge termination between the two Pila IBC's that might have put more juice in one set of cells.


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## RepProdigious (Sep 24, 2010)

LuxLuthor said:


> I waited until Pila turned green, took cells out, waited 30 mins, then reversed cells in chargers





Norm said:


> Good job Lux, I gather you meant to say swapped. :wave:
> Norm



Yeah, if you read that with half an eye it almost looks like you put the cells in backwards for some strange reason  But i get what you mean.

Nice little head-up on the Redilasts btw :thumbsup:


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## etc (Sep 24, 2010)

I expected that... I like multiple cells to get to 2-5A, which is enormous load IMO. 



> I don't feel that these cells hold their voltage very well under any kind of a medium load. So you either need to use them in low amp demand applications, use multiple cells to get your delivered voltage under load into the range you need--and then likely use regulation, or settle for a better performing cell under load.


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## Alan (Sep 24, 2010)

Just got a few Redi 2900s and it's too long to fit Zebralight. AW2900 was reported working fine with ZL.


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## righttoown (Sep 24, 2010)

Alan said:


> Just got a few Redi 2900s and it's too long to fit Zebralight. AW2900 was reported working fine with ZL.


 
Which model Zebra Light the SC60 or the SC60W? LuxLuthor thanks for taking time to run this test. I have the Redi 2900s but not the AWs and was wondering if there was much difference.


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## 45/70 (Sep 24, 2010)

Good job, Lux. I've been thinking about and observing high cap vs. drain rate for some time. It appears that Li-Ion cells and thier cousins, NiMH, have similar characteristics in this regard. Compromise, appears to be a necessity when constructing high cap cells of either chemistry, in order to achieve higher capacity.

Dave


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## Mr Happy (Sep 24, 2010)

Staying with the theme, other compromises to wonder about would include durability and longevity... :thinking:


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## Alan (Sep 25, 2010)

Mr Happy said:


> Staying with the theme, other compromises to wonder about would include durability and longevity... :thinking:



I would consider dimension as one of the factors to be considered. You won't compare 18650 vs 17670, would you? If one's dimension is on margin of spec and when 2 of them are used, it might cause problem. Please note that not that I am saying one is off spec as none does (most 18650 are 670 or 680).

Alan


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## 45/70 (Sep 25, 2010)

Alan said:


> I would consider dimension as one of the factors to be considered. You won't compare 18650 vs 17670, would you? If one's dimension is on margin of spec and when 2 of them are used, it might cause problem. Please note that not that I am saying one is off spec as none does (most 18650 are 670 or 680).



I don't really think you can consider the dimension of the cells. There are no "standard" dimensions for individual, or "loose" protected Li-Ion cells, as no manufacturers make any. The added length of protected cells is merely an inconvenient byproduct of third parties adding PCBs.

Dave


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## vestureofblood (Sep 25, 2010)

Thanks for doing this Lux.

I am interested to know what the actual length of each of these cells is.


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## Alan (Sep 25, 2010)

45/70 said:


> There are no "standard" dimensions for individual
> Dave



The standard is 65mm +/- 0.2mm for industrial 18650 cell. Battery sellers add their own protection circuit that add more height. Most add up 2 mm +/- a few percent but some add more than 3 mm.


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## Alan (Sep 25, 2010)

Redi Cells measured 68.7 to 68.9mm and I got 4 of them. I'm not sure it's their typical length. Lux might want to chime in the dimension of AW2900.

For ZL SC60, you could use Panasonic NCR18650. SC60 (not H60) has built-in cutoff feature at 2.7v. Although SC60 will protect the cell from over-discharge, it won't protect it from being over-charged. It means you might want a good charger like Pila.


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## cave dave (Sep 25, 2010)

Do both or either have button tops?


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## don.gwapo (Sep 25, 2010)

cave dave said:


> Do both or either have button tops?


 
Yes and no. The Redi is button top while the AW is flat top. Same as their 2600mAh as well.


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## LuxLuthor (Sep 25, 2010)

Alan said:


> Redi Cells measured 68.7 to 68.9mm and I got 4 of them. I'm not sure it's their typical length. Lux might want to chime in the dimension of AW2900.



18.25 x 68.04 mm (outside of 3 contact points of neg end) Widest is over the protection strip running length.


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## 45/70 (Sep 25, 2010)

Alan said:


> The standard is 65mm +/- 0.2mm for industrial 18650 cell. Battery sellers add their own protection circuit that add more height. Most add up 2 mm +/- a few percent but some add more than 3 mm.



My apologies. I didn't word my post very well. What I was pointing out, is that there is no standard dimension for "protected" Li-Ion cells. The dimension of "protected" cells depends on what PCB Redilast or AW, for example, add to the manufacturer's cell. Of course, this is a consideration when choosing a cell for a specific application, but has little to do with standard cell sizes. So, when you compare "protected" 18650 and 17670 cells, they likely are not actually that size, as there is no standard dimension for "protected" cells.

Dave


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## tre (Sep 26, 2010)

Thanks for doing this. I have so many lights that will not work with flat tops. Every thread I've seen on the Redilast so far is positive. I think I will have to order a few of the 2900.


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## Steve in SoCal (Sep 26, 2010)

Many thanks for the info and discussion Lux.


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## Alan (Sep 29, 2010)

righttoown said:


> Which model Zebra Light the SC60 or the SC60W? LuxLuthor thanks for taking time to run this test. I have the Redi 2900s but not the AWs and was wondering if there was much difference.



While Redilast is too long for H60, it actually fits SC60. It was my mistake to assumme it won't fit because of H60s I have. After SC60 arrived, I found that it fits well.

My apology for the confusion.

Alan


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## lightening bug (Oct 28, 2010)

amigafan2003 said:


> Looks like we have another reputable 18650 supplier (about time!).


Both, the Redilast 2900 as wel as the AW 2900 are made by Panasonic.
My problem with the Redilast is, that it doesn't fit in my WF-139 charger.
(Redilast is 1 mm longer than AW).
On the other hand, the capacity I have measured is 4% higher than AW.


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## Colonel Sanders (Oct 30, 2010)

Oddly, my Redilast 2900s do fit my WF-139....*BARELY!* It's a tight fit but it works. 

They fit easily in my Xstar XP6.

These things last a loooooooong time in my SC60.


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## Hacken (Aug 25, 2011)

will this 3100mAh redilast fit perfectly into the TK11?... i have the AW 2900mAh and is currently doing more research to see if there are any better batteries for the buck out there...


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## RedForest UK (Aug 25, 2011)

The 3100 should be the same dimensions as the 2900 cell from redilast. Both are panasonic NCR18650a base cells and both capacities use the same size casing. For best bang for buck look for Callies Kustoms 3100 cells, they are a cheaper option than the Redilast ... _*content removed by Greta... Sensitive dealer insider information* _....They're a good buy if you're in the US.


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## Hacken (Aug 26, 2011)

RedForest UK said:


> The 3100 should be the same dimensions as the 2900 cell from redilast. Both are panasonic NCR18650a base cells and both capacities use the same size casing. For best bang for buck look for Callies Kustoms 3100 cells, they are a cheaper option than the Redilast... _*content removed by Greta...sensitive dealer insider information*_ ... They're a good buy if you're in the US.


 

thanks for the info


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## Hacken (Aug 26, 2011)

redforest i assume you probably bought a couple of these cells before already. i am placing a order for two cells right now....


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## Stephen Wallace (Aug 26, 2011)

I have three of the eX-Cell versions of these 3100mAh Panasonic cells, and just tried them in my TK11 R2 - they are actually just a fraction too fat, and will not fit in my TK11.


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## Hacken (Aug 26, 2011)

Stephen Wallace said:


> I have three of the eX-Cell versions of these 3100mAh Panasonic cells, and just tried them in my TK11 R2 - they are actually just a fraction too fact, and will not fit in my TK11.


 
:shakehead oh man... so i just placed a order on two kustomcallies 3100 batteries..aww man..WTH?...


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## Stephen Wallace (Aug 26, 2011)

Hacken said:


> :shakehead oh man... so i just placed a order on two kustomcallies 3100 batteries..aww man..WTH?...



Apologies - poor timing on my part. Maybe if you contact them and explain the situation, they may let you cancel the order? Alternatively, it may be that they will fit your T20C2, and you will be able to use them in that, but unfortunately, I do not have access to one of those to check for you.


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## Stephen Wallace (Aug 26, 2011)

If my memory doesn't fail me, I'll check over the weekend which cells I have that will fit in the TK11. I'll also check which of my lights (sadly, not a huge selection of 18650 lights to hand) the Panny 3100s fit in.


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## Hacken (Aug 26, 2011)

i'm just going to let the order go through. i'll just have to wait and see if it fits..if not i assume they will refund the money if it doesn't fit.. wish me luck.. i will post the results when i get it next week.


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## geisto (Aug 26, 2011)

The 3100 cell was a tad too fat for my bored Z2 but after removing the Callie's Kustoms label, it fits right in.


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## Stephen Wallace (Aug 26, 2011)

With the TK11, not just a label issue unfortunately - the actual shoulder of the battery is too wide to even start going in to the tube. It's too wide right from top to bottom.


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## Hacken (Aug 26, 2011)

geisto said:


> The 3100 cell was a tad too fat for my bored Z2 but after removing the Callie's Kustoms label, it fits right in.


 
wouldn't it just be a waste if you removed the labels?.. i mean the extra costs was because it was protected right....


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## Stephen Wallace (Aug 26, 2011)

I think he means just the stick on brand label, not the heat shrink wrapping.


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## geisto (Aug 26, 2011)

Yep, just the label, not the shrink wrap. It's still a tight fit but at least the whole cell will sit in the tube now.



Stephen Wallace said:


> I think he means just the stick on brand label, not the heat shrink wrapping.


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## Stephen Wallace (Aug 27, 2011)

Not really the subject of this thread, so I'll just rush through this quickly.

While I've got lots of lights, very few are actually 18650 format - in fact, I seem to have less than I thought. I almost wonder if I have misplaced a couple of lights? :thinking:

To make matters worse, like Hacken and his TK11s, I've settled on a light I liked (Olight M20) and bought several versions - so that makes for even less variation.

Still, for what it is worth, the Panny 3100s fitted in the following lights: -

1. Fivemega '9P Surefire" style host. Obviously not a 18650 light - two 18500s or three 18350s, but hopefully indicates that one of his 6P hosts would work with this battery.
2. Olight M20
3. Olight Titanium SST-50 M20
4. Olight M20 S2 Special Operations
5. Jetbeam MIII XR-E (I think it's the pre-R2 model)
6. Fenix TK15

In fact, the TK11 R2 was the only one of my 18650 specific lights that the Pannys wouldn't fit in. 

To take the opposite tack, I then dug out the various brands of 18650 cells that I have to hand. I've bought a few different brands recently for testing purposes - trying to find something a little cheaper than the AWs and Redilasts, but better than the Trustfires and Ultrafires. I also have my first old 18650, which came with my Jetbeam MIII - a Huaneng 2200mAh.

1. Huaneng 2200mAh
2. Trustfire grey 2400mAh
3. Ultrafire 3000mAh
4. eX-cell 3100mAh
5. Yezl 2400mAh
6. Rydbatt 2600mAh
7. Hi-Max 2600mAh
8. Keeppower 2600mAh
9. Xtar 2600mAh
10. SenyBor 2800mAh

Of these, the Trustfire fit easily, but not a great battery. The Ultrafires were a snug fit, but again, not a great battery. The Yezls fitted easily. The SenyBor fitted easily, other than the very end of the battery, where the ribbon from the PCB stood out a little, and made the end of the battery a bit of a snug fit - no problem though. The Hi-Max was a snug fit, but a bit of shaking got it out easily enough. The Keeppower was a snug fit, to the point that the brand label stopped it going in. With this removed, it looks like it should go in. Where the PCB ribbon bends around the base of the battery also stood up a little - like the SenyBor - but I don't think it would cause a problem. Xtar is a very snug fit.

We already know that the eX-cell doesn't fit. To add to this neither do the Huaneng or Rydbatt.


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## Stephen Wallace (Aug 27, 2011)

*Update! Update! Update!*

OK, scrap that. 

I have just tried the other two eX-cell Panasonic 3100mAh cells that I purchased from RedForest. Turns out that purely by coincidence, the first cell I tested was just a fraction wider than the rest. Maybe the heat shrink could use a little more shrinking. Maybe the label, the seam in the shrink, and the PCB ribbon are all in a layer, but for whatever reason, that one cell won't fit. 

The second cell went in - tight, but I was still able to get it out without having to remove the light head and push it out. 

The third cell looks like it would go in if the label were removed, but no go with the label on. 

So, the good news is that with a bit of luck, you can use the Panny 3100s with the TK11. Assuming the removal of the brand label, I would be able to use two of the three that I have.


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## Hacken (Aug 27, 2011)

*Re: Update! Update! Update!*

stephen, thanks.. maybe it just depends on people's luck with the batteries.. i hope i won't have to sent them back when it get here.


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