# Projector Project



## cdrake261 (May 27, 2012)

I acquired an older projector with a working lamp at the moment, however I want to start working on a bright led setup for this...several thoughts comes to mind:

1) my unit is large, so easy to swap to a led setup.
2) I have leftover water cooling from an old computer project.
3) fewer sst-90's or more xm-l.
4) what tint LEDs to give natural lighting.

I would like something bright enough to use in my room without the need to black out my windows or use black curtains, running cooler than the lamp it uses is a plus. Also like to find a way to power on the LEDs when I turn the projector on...I also need to figure out how to adjust the brightness as well.

Here's my projector with an Xbox case to show you the size of the projector...







Any ideas?


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## RoGuE_StreaK (May 28, 2012)

I'd say that this does open up the possibilities of using the High-Voltage range, which I've never really investigated? And/or EasyWhite stuff?


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## cdrake261 (May 28, 2012)

RoGuE_StreaK said:


> I'd say that this does open up the possibilities of using the High-Voltage range, which I've never really investigated? And/or EasyWhite stuff?



Could you clarify a little?


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## Walterk (May 28, 2012)

Quite some project...

What do the home projector forums say?
Why do you want to make it led?
How many years do you plan using this projector and how many hours a week?

What lightbulb is in it right now and is it dimmable?
Can you open the projector and show how the light is arranged? To see what distance to the first plane you have.


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## RoGuE_StreaK (May 28, 2012)

cdrake261 said:


> Could you clarify a little?


I don't have any clue as to what would work best, I was just saying that as it's mains powered then you aren't restricted to your typical 3-ish volt emitters used by the vast majority of CPFers; Cree as a range of "High Voltage" emitters that need around 46V, I assume there's a reason they exist, but haven't looked into them properly as it's well outside of the voltage range I use.
I think the Easy White range is supposed to provide better colour consistency, but again I haven't had the need to investigate them. Just throwing out a few more possibilities so you don't get trapped in the typical flashlight emiters.
Then there's the array emitters like the MT-G2, but I don't know if they would/could have a negative effect on the projected image.


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## cdrake261 (May 28, 2012)

Walterk said:


> Quite some project...
> 
> What do the home projector forums say?
> Why do you want to make it led?
> ...



Ill get back to you when I get to my desktop, easier to type on it than my phone...



RoGuE_StreaK said:


> I don't have any clue as to what would work best, I was just saying that as it's mains powered then you aren't restricted to your typical 3-ish volt emitters used by the vast majority of CPFers; Cree as a range of "High Voltage" emitters that need around 46V, I assume there's a reason they exist, but haven't looked into them properly as it's well outside of the voltage range I use.
> I think the Easy White range is supposed to provide better colour consistency, but again I haven't had the need to investigate them. Just throwing out a few more possibilities so you don't get trapped in the typical flashlight emiters.
> Then there's the array emitters like the MT-G2, but I don't know if they would/could have a negative effect on the projected image.



Didnt think any about these, I'll have to do some more research...


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## cdrake261 (Jun 2, 2012)

Haven't measured but this is a peek inside...


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## midori (Jun 3, 2012)

Hi!

I'm also working on a LED projector.
From my experience I can recommend you to avoid large LEDs (i.e. 30W). 
I already tried that but it's almost impossible to focus light from a 30 die LED into a 6 cm square when lit from 1 meter.

I got much better results from a CREE XM-L T6 (currently giving out only ~3.3W, trying to solve that problem in another thread).

I can post pictures of my build or give additional explanation if anyone's interested.


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## cdrake261 (Jun 3, 2012)

midori said:


> Hi!
> 
> I'm also working on a LED projector.
> From my experience I can recommend you to avoid large LEDs (i.e. 30W).
> ...



Im interested...is a single XM-L bright enough?


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## Paul Baldwin (Jun 3, 2012)

Hi, I'm currently using an xm-l powered lcd projector for my pc screen and to watch dvds. I first used an mc-e a few years back but have since upgraded it, theres a few initial pics in this thread http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?238962-LCD-Projector-light-LEDs-HID-light Since fitting the xm-l I've now managed to get up to 86 lux on a 40" screen. Overall very happy with it and the colours are ok too! I can see the screen with the lights on or curtains open aslong as it isn't too bright outside. Led, driver and lenses were all sourced from DX.
Electrodacus originally inspired my project, he has some good videos posted but sadly the original thread at lumenlabs has dissappeared recently. http://video-projector.computer-4u....-3xlcd-lamp-replacement-25-lumen-720p-part-2/


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## cdrake261 (Jun 3, 2012)

Paul Baldwin said:


> Hi, I'm currently using an xm-l powered lcd projector for my pc screen and to watch dvds. I first used an mc-e a few years back but have since upgraded it, theres a few initial pics in this thread http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?238962-LCD-Projector-light-LEDs-HID-light Since fitting the xm-l I've now managed to get up to 86 lux on a 40" screen. Overall very happy with it and the colours are ok too! I can see the screen with the lights on or curtains open aslong as it isn't too bright outside. Led, driver and lenses were all sourced from DX.
> Electrodacus originally inspired my project, he has some good videos posted but sadly the original thread at lumenlabs has dissappeared recently. http://video-projector.computer-4u....-3xlcd-lamp-replacement-25-lumen-720p-part-2/



Do you need to buy another lens to make this work?


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## Paul Baldwin (Jun 3, 2012)

I've used a 28mm lense as a collimator and a 66mm main lense. I found it best to position the collimator about 2-3mm from the led and then adjusted the 66mm lense until I got the highest lux reading on screen. I would certainly try your current lense first tho. Use a decent led torch you can remove the lense from for some initial tests?


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## midori (Jun 3, 2012)

Paul Baldwin said:


> Hi, I'm currently using an xm-l powered lcd projector for my pc screen and to watch dvds. I first used an mc-e a few years back but have since upgraded it, theres a few initial pics in this thread http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?238962-LCD-Projector-light-LEDs-HID-light Since fitting the xm-l I've now managed to get up to 86 lux on a 40" screen. Overall very happy with it and the colours are ok too! I can see the screen with the lights on or curtains open aslong as it isn't too bright outside. Led, driver and lenses were all sourced from DX.
> Electrodacus originally inspired my project, he has some good videos posted but sadly the original thread at lumenlabs has dissappeared recently. http://video-projector.computer-4u....-3xlcd-lamp-replacement-25-lumen-720p-part-2/



Hi! Could you please list exact components you're using (LED, driver, LENS) and post new pics of your build?
I'm also doing a CREE XM-L T6 build but getting pretty bad results mostly because I'm only getting 0.8A current on emitter (insted of 3A) so I'm really interested in driver you're using. Also I've gotten excellent results with only 50mm lens, I'm getting 15x15cm sqare from ~2m distance.


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## cdrake261 (Jun 3, 2012)

Just one xm-l is all you guys are using? How much difference would a sst-90 be over an XM-l?


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## cdrake261 (Jun 3, 2012)

Paul Baldwin said:


> I've used a 28mm lense as a collimator and a 66mm main lense. I found it best to position the collimator about 2-3mm from the led and then adjusted the 66mm lense until I got the highest lux reading on screen. I would certainly try your current lense first tho. Use a decent led torch you can remove the lense from for some initial tests?



Can we get part numbers?


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## Paul Baldwin (Jun 3, 2012)

I'm afraid my camera battery is dead and I can't afford a new one at the mo. I used the 6-18v 3000mA DX driver, XM-LT60 1000LM LED White Light Emitter with 18mm Base(2.9~3.5V) Glass Optics for Flashlights (28mm) 66mm*24mm 2~90-Degree 99% Transmittance Glass Optic. I used a power supply from a gutted mini-fridge to supply the led and a pc heatsink as cooling overkill, similiar to the one in the thread I posted.
Your results with the 50mm lense are comparable with mine by the sounds of it 

SKU 13618
SKU 5297
SKU 54704
SKU 57779


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## Paul Baldwin (Jun 3, 2012)

cdrake261 said:


> Just one xm-l is all you guys are using? How much difference would a sst-90 be over an XM-l?






Yes one xm-l only. You need as narrow a light beam as possible AFAIK. An Xr-e would be better if you could push it to 3 or 5 amps.


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## midori (Jun 3, 2012)

Paul Baldwin said:


> I'm afraid my camera battery is dead and I can't afford a new one at the mo. I used the 6-18v 3000mA DX driver, XM-LT60 1000LM LED White Light Emitter with 18mm Base(2.9~3.5V) Glass Optics for Flashlights (28mm) 66mm*24mm 2~90-Degree 99% Transmittance Glass Optic. I used a power supply from a gutted mini-fridge to supply the led and a pc heatsink as cooling overkill, similiar to the one in the thread I posted.
> 
> 
> Your results with the 50mm lense are comparable with mine by the sounds of it
> ...



I've got exactly the same parts except for the driver. Could that be the reason why I'm not getting 3A but only 0.8A of current?
I've been using buck converter, Li-Po battery and 3.3V PSU rail but couldn't get more that 1A of current no matter what.
I'm really getting desperate


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## cdrake261 (Jun 3, 2012)

I'm strongly considering an sst-90 possibly, I want my light to be bright


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## midori (Jun 3, 2012)

cdrake261 said:


> I'm strongly considering an sst-90 possibly, I want my light to be bright



As I said before, it's not the problem of brightness but focusing light from multiple dies in such a narrow beam is very very difficult.
You have to be able to achieve 6x6cm light square from 1m distance. Everything outside of that square is wasted light because the light has to pass through 3 LCD screen which are roughly 0.5'' in diameter.


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## Paul Baldwin (Jun 3, 2012)

midori said:


> I've got exactly the same parts except for the driver. Could that be the reason why I'm not getting 3A but only 0.8A of current?
> I've been using buck converter, Li-Po battery and 3.3V PSU rail but couldn't get more that 1A of current no matter what.
> I'm really getting desperate



I see you've been getting very good advice in the thread you've started. You could always try and run your led by just protecting it with a resistor from the 5v rail if you're using a pc psu. It's not ideal but a very cheap way of powering an led if absolute efficiency isn't a goal. The psu will draw 10 watts or so anyway IIRC. I've used them numerous times and never had a problem as they have such good built in protection. You may have to be patient if ordering from DX!

Ps. I'd be temped to order Sku 50025 and run the led at 4A if you're using a good heatsink and quality thermal compound.


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## cdrake261 (Jun 3, 2012)

Midori...could you provide a link to your build thread?


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## midori (Jun 3, 2012)

cdrake261 said:


> Midori...could you provide a link to your build thread?



cdrake261 I don't have a build thread. I can make pictures tomorrow and post then here if you want.
I just managed to get ful 3A on CREE T6 so I'll assemble and test everything tomorrow.


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## cdrake261 (Jun 3, 2012)

midori said:


> cdrake261 I don't have a build thread. I can make pictures tomorrow and post then here if you want.
> I just managed to get ful 3A on CREE T6 so I'll assemble and test everything tomorrow.



Please do post pictures here, I'm trying to figure out an led setup for my projector...my main goal is to be brighter then it is now, and according to this website:

http://www.projectorcentral.com/Sharp-XG-E690U.htm

...it only has 220 lumens. 220 LUMENS?!! So ok, my projector is old but works well...not sure if it has the original bulb or if its been replaced before(made in 1996). I'll run it out till the bulb dies then in goes the LED...Also, little birdie tells me my college is going to get revamped at the end of summer semester along with new hardware(projectors, computers, etc.) so there should be a whole new mess of them. I'm going to start doing some research on what projector they got hanging up there and who I need to get a hold of to acquire one or several projectors.


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## qwertyydude (Jun 3, 2012)

I would think one of the easier things would be to just adapt it to a car HID. It should be an easy swap just mounting it to where the original reflector is and getting a 55 watt hid should net you 3300 bulb lumens. And since you're using the original reflector and lens on a similar bulb you should get maximum projected lumens too. They run fine from a computer power supply so that should be easy to adapt. Plus you wouldn't need to worry about all the heat problems since HID bulbs were made to run in enclosed areas like car projectors.


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## cdrake261 (Jun 3, 2012)

qwertyydude said:


> I would think one of the easier things would be to just adapt it to a car HID. It should be an easy swap just mounting it to where the original reflector is and getting a 55 watt hid should net you 3300 bulb lumens. And since you're using the original reflector and lens on a similar bulb you should get maximum projected lumens too. They run fine from a computer power supply so that should be easy to adapt. Plus you wouldn't need to worry about all the heat problems since HID bulbs were made to run in enclosed areas like car projectors.



I have thought about this...still have to remove the power supply for the other original bulb...no?

I have an extra ballast and several bulbs, may try to fire one up


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## SemiMan (Jun 6, 2012)

cdrake261 said:


> Please do post pictures here, I'm trying to figure out an led setup for my projector...my main goal is to be brighter then it is now, and according to this website:
> 
> http://www.projectorcentral.com/Sharp-XG-E690U.htm
> 
> ...it only has 220 lumens. 220 LUMENS?!! So ok, my projector is old but works well...not sure if it has the original bulb or if its been replaced before(made in 1996). I'll run it out till the bulb dies then in goes the LED...Also, little birdie tells me my college is going to get revamped at the end of summer semester along with new hardware(projectors, computers, etc.) so there should be a whole new mess of them. I'm going to start doing some research on what projector they got hanging up there and who I need to get a hold of to acquire one or several projectors.




Not to burst your bubble, but about the only thing that projector is good for is as a door stop. You would be far better off spending your time working on something that will result in "something". This is likely to just end up as a waste of time with very poor results. Unfortunately, that is the simple reality.

This projector has a 275 watt metal halide bulb. That bulb, I would estimate is 20,000 - 25,000 lumens. It is also somewhat close to a point source. You cannot simply replace that with some LEDs. There are so many issues including optical design, color issues w.r.t. the LED spectrum versus the bulb spectrum, etc. Achieving even the same performance as the original bulb will likely be impossible with LEDs without some serious optical design and perhaps custom reflectors, etc. 

The suggestion about the car HID while noble, is going to take you back 10 steps or so .... a 3500 lumen car HID is obviously not a replacement for a 20,000+ lumen bulb.

Your only chance of success with the LED is to completely ditch using white light and go to R G B leds directly illuminating the three LCD panels. Likely the expectation is the light hitting the panels is somewhat collimated, but I am not sure. Of course once you start delving into those parts of the projector, you have to ensure you keep dust out.

Projector technology has improved so much since this unit came out that there is little point trying to do anything with it beyond treating it as a learning experience knowing you will not get much out of it.

Semiman


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## cdrake261 (Jun 6, 2012)

SemiMan said:


> Not to burst your bubble, but about the only thing that projector is good for is as a door stop. You would be far better off spending your time working on something that will result in "something". This is likely to just end up as a waste of time with very poor results. Unfortunately, that is the simple reality.
> 
> This projector has a 275 watt metal halide bulb. That bulb, I would estimate is 20,000 - 25,000 lumens. It is also somewhat close to a point source. You cannot simply replace that with some LEDs. There are so many issues including optical design, color issues w.r.t. the LED spectrum versus the bulb spectrum, etc. Achieving even the same performance as the original bulb will likely be impossible with LEDs without some serious optical design and perhaps custom reflectors, etc.
> 
> ...



Dude, you just peed in my wheaties!


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## cdrake261 (Jun 6, 2012)

Besides that, where does 20k to 25k lumens goes when the output is 220 lumens?


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## The_Driver (Jun 6, 2012)

cdrake261 said:


> Besides that, where does 20k to 25k lumens goes when the output is 220 lumens?



The optical pathways of preojectors, even today, a very inefficient. Todays models are noticeably more efficient in this regard than yours, but they still are inefficient. Modern mercury lamps (philips uhp and osram p-vip) do around 60 lumens per watt iirc. At typical drive levels like 120W or 230W they produce something between 7000lumens and 14000. Most projectors produce 1500 - 2500 otf lumens.


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## bshanahan14rulz (Jun 6, 2012)

OP posted a picture of the bulb. Though no size reference is given, it doesn't look like 250W, looks more like <100W.

Any markings on the original "bulb" (bulb = bulb and reflector, in most projectors) to give us an idea of what lamp/optic it uses?

I dig the HID kit idea, but there is that part where you'd probably have to externally mount the ballast, but it's not like that's a compact projector to begin with, a little extra bulk won't hurt.


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## cdrake261 (Jun 6, 2012)

He was basically saying there is a 98.9% light loss inside the projector...I don't believe that...


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## Paul Baldwin (Jun 7, 2012)

Just for reference my projector previously used a 120W bulb and was 800 lumen originally http://www.projectorpoint.co.uk/projectors/Panasonic_PT-AE300E.html I only paid £20 for it as the bulb had blown, maybe a more efficient unit would be a better starting point?


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## SemiMan (Jun 7, 2012)

"Dude" used to design aspects of projectors so you could say I know a thing or two ..... I looked up the specs for the projector from several sources and all at 275W MH, 220 lumens out. Keep in mind this is a 1996 projector ... they were JUST coming out on the market. So where are the losses.

- Collection losses on the illumination system
- Losses splitting the light into 3 difference colors. If done as a white split into three, then filters, then the losses will be large
- Losses in the filters
- Aperture losses in the LCD ... which in 1996 were probably huge. Polarization loss, etc.
- Losses in the dichroic mirrors to recombine the colors
- Losses in the projection optics (and apertures)

So .....

Let's call it

0.65 * 0.3333 * 0.65 * 0.15 * 0.75 * 0.65 * 20,000

= 200 lumens

So yes, 99% losses back then were realistic!

If you look at the changes today, the big increases are in the optical performance of the system and the aperture losses and associated losses through the LCD panel. As there are so many loss points, moderate changes at every point result in huge increases in output.

Sorry that your cereal does not taste very good, but its better to know that someone pissed in it before you take your first bite 

Semiman


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## SemiMan (Jun 7, 2012)

I don't like to rain on any hobbyist's parade, but an LED modification of a non LED projector and achieving reasonable results is really something that take strong optical knowledge, design, perhaps even customization to accomplish. It's not just "not easy", it is very hard to near impossible. At some point you really are not modifying but starting from scratch.


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## idleprocess (Jun 7, 2012)

Back when I was considering a LumenLab projector project some 5+ years ago, I recall reading that going through the LCD panel (stripped down to the minimum) typically results in ~90% light loss. Suspect that the LCD's in the projectors of ~10 years ago weren't much better on light transmission.

I read a few write-ups on using the basic LumenLab pattern with LED's - typically in an array with some crude optical setup to get the light vaguely coherent relative to the LCD plane. By all accounts these were poor performers with brightness and picture quality issues. I gather that the few LED-illuminated projectors out there are largely The "pico" variety. While LED's have improved since then, they're still nowhere near parity with the raw lumens that arc lamps with double- and triple-digit wattages can spit out.

On the other hand, if the OP can achieve what they consider satisfactory results (which obviously won't replicate what the original product achieved), then have fun. We're not usually hobbyists to beat the professionals at their own game - the fun tends to be in the doing.


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## Paul Baldwin (Jun 8, 2012)

SemiMan said:


> I don't like to rain on any hobbyist's parade, but an LED modification of a non LED projector and achieving reasonable results is really something that take strong optical knowledge, design, perhaps even customization to accomplish. It's not just "not easy", it is very hard to near impossible. At some point you really are not modifying but starting from scratch.



Sorry but I'd have to respectfully dissagree with this post. I'm a know nothing numpty who just likes to have a go at different things. Id encourage anyone who likes to tinker to have a go at a project like this if they have access to a cheap enough projector. I've enjoyed many dvd's with mine so far and have been using it everyday as a computer screen for months using a single xm-l  It uses far less power than it did originally and I get a superior, larger picture than my current 32" tube telly.


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## The_Driver (Jun 8, 2012)

Paul Baldwin said:


> Sorry but I'd have to respectfully dissagree with this post. I'm a know nothing numpty who just likes to have a go at different things. Id encourage anyone who likes to tinker to have a go at a project like this if they have access to a cheap enough projector. I've enjoyed many dvd's with mine so far and have been using it everyday as a computer screen for months using a single xm-l  It uses far less power than it did originally and I get a superior, larger picture than my current 32" tube telly.



How much bigger is it withouth becoming too dark? Do you only use it in the evening or also during the day?


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## Paul Baldwin (Jun 8, 2012)

Hi, the screen I am using is 40" so don't really use it more than that. It will however zoom out to 48" from it's current position and is still ok to use. It's 3.20 pm in the uk at the mo and the curtains are open but it is a typically overcast June day Obviously a darkened room is significantly better for DVD's and theres enough reflected light off the screen to navigate without falling over anything, find your pint etc.
One major problem I had was that the projector I got was owned originally by a very heavy smoker and was ceiling mounted. When I finally bit the bullet and took as many lenses an mirrors out as I dared I gained 25% light output by just cleaning the film off them.
Colour wise the only slight issue I have is on some websites with bright lime greens being a little weak and some reds being slightly too vivid. I've adjusted these on the pc tho and now it's really not bad.


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## SemiMan (Jun 9, 2012)

Paul Baldwin said:


> Hi, the screen I am using is 40" so don't really use it more than that. It will however zoom out to 48" from it's current position and is still ok to use. It's 3.20 pm in the uk at the mo and the curtains are open but it is a typically overcast June day Obviously a darkened room is significantly better for DVD's and theres enough reflected light off the screen to navigate without falling over anything, find your pint etc.
> One major problem I had was that the projector I got was owned originally by a very heavy smoker and was ceiling mounted. When I finally bit the bullet and took as many lenses an mirrors out as I dared I gained 25% light output by just cleaning the film off them.
> Colour wise the only slight issue I have is on some websites with bright lime greens being a little weak and some reds being slightly too vivid. I've adjusted these on the pc tho and now it's really not bad.



Paul, the poster said he wanted it "brighter". He is not going to do that with any easy with LEDs.

I looked at your original post. I would guess with your XML, assuming a somewhat newer projector, that perhaps you are getting 50 lumens total on the screen.

If you did not notice, the poster has quite an old projector that is very inefficient ... OEM is only passing 1-2% of the original light and converting to LED is not going to help that.

AS IT NOTED, if he treats it as a fun project without expecting much in the way of results, then sure go ahead. However, his original post was for it to be brighter. It's not going to happen without some strong optical knowledge and design .... and even then the results are likely to be blotchy with sketchy color.

Semiman


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## Paul Baldwin (Jun 10, 2012)

Hi Semiman, I posted a link to my projector specs in post #33, I also backed your suggestion for possibly starting off with another projector of better efficiency.
I just didn't want everyone reading your post #35 and knocking the idea on the head before they even started a project like this., considering I've managed to achieve reasonable results that I'm using to reply to you. Strong optical design and knowledge are not my strong points and I've used cheap as chips lenses to do it  Your other posts, as ever, I found very informative.


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