# black diamond ICON headlamp ?



## leduk (Oct 21, 2006)

(No, no, no! Not Ion but ICON!)
(No not the beanie the headlamp!)

3AA 3W + 4 led, rechargeable pack, $60.

Looks quite neat.

Any reviews anyone?
Any experience?

I've searched but to no avail.

Thanks.


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## cy (Oct 21, 2006)

how about a link? or pic


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## leduk (Oct 21, 2006)

You want me to click on them for you too? :laughing:

BD mfr Link here includes picture.
REI shop link here.

Cheers


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## Christoph (Oct 21, 2006)

It looks very interesting I may have to get one.


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## jar3ds (Oct 21, 2006)

looks like a apex copy (or maybe the other way around, i don't know which came first)...


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## moses (Oct 21, 2006)

Yes, would love to hear how this performs compared to the Apex. I think the Apex came first a while ago.....

Mo


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## leduk (Oct 23, 2006)

I noticed there was a link to the Black Diamond European ops and I emailed them asking when and where I could get one.

They sent the price GBP £49.99 and the rechargeable kit comes extra at £19.99. The Icon has been released since March this year.

They also sent a link to a PDF list of stockists. 

Pretty much all the stockists have web presences. None come up on a UK search.

No reviews, no links, no nothing!

First thing I'd do is send out a bunch of evaluation units to all the review sites. Second I'd get 10 stockists to put it up on their sites even if its "out of stock". 

There again I'm just looking to perhaps buy one and I'm not an expert in making and selling stuff. Maybe the Icon is sooooooo good, they want to keep them all for themselves?

What do I know about it?:shrug:

Cheers


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## WDR65 (Oct 25, 2006)

This one looks fairly interesting, it looks like it has a reflector and it might be the answer to the things I don't like about that Apex, though it would really have to be good for me to replace it completely in my bag.


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## unl67volvo (Oct 26, 2006)

I would also love to hear any comparisons b/w this and the Apex. I want a new headlamp for X-mas, and I was set on the Apex until I read this thread and looked at the very similar specs of the Icon for $20+ less than the Apex. I did my googling as well, and came up with NO other info or reviews of the Icon. I hope we'll hear from someone on this. BTW... I love the site. Everyone seems to get along w/o the BS battering you see on so many other forums - very refreshing.


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## jar3ds (Oct 26, 2006)

unl67volvo said:


> I would also love to hear any comparisons b/w this and the Apex. I want a new headlamp for X-mas, and I was set on the Apex until I read this thread and looked at the very similar specs of the Icon for $20+ less than the Apex. I did my googling as well, and came up with NO other info or reviews of the Icon. I hope we'll hear from someone on this. BTW... I love the site. Everyone seems to get along w/o the BS battering you see on so many other forums - very refreshing.


 i doubt the icon will have near the features of the Apex...


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## cave dave (Oct 26, 2006)

Well its got a reflector and thats a huge plus.

If its like other BD lights it uses PWM, its not very waterproof and you have to cycle through the other mode before you get to the mode you want. It doesn't look like it has a heatsink, that would be a no-no for a 3w light. I suspect its operation is very much like the BD Spot. The BD Spot has a great lux beam, but is lacking in almost every other design criteria.


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## moses (Oct 27, 2006)

So......anyone plan to test one out for the community.....?.....

Mo


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## jar3ds (Oct 27, 2006)

cave dave said:


> Well its got a reflector and thats a huge plus.
> 
> If its like other BD lights it uses PWM, its not very waterproof and you have to cycle through the other mode before you get to the mode you want. It doesn't look like it has a heatsink, that would be a no-no for a 3w light. I suspect its operation is very much like the BD Spot. The BD Spot has a great lux beam, but is lacking in almost every other design criteria.


 i don't own a apex but it would seem to be that the reflector would fit directly inbetween the optic and flood... the optic tries to put all the light toward hotspot... while the 5mm are just pure flood... and the reflector tries to spread out like like a 5mm yet still put more light toward the center for throw...

so I have found that if I owned an apex leaving it stock would be the best option... however, i don't think people who buy the apex understand that the 5mm leds are their primary 'task' lighting...


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## beautifully-stupid (Oct 27, 2006)

If REI ever sends me the one I ordered (They're telling me November 1)

I'll be happy to do an uneducated informal write-up.... more like...

"this light is crap-olla, or... this thing is sweet!" 

I may even consider buying an apex for the day ... for beam shot comparison, but don't have the equipment to show run-charts or actual light output. So anything from me will be limited... and completely biased ... since i'm a fan of Black Diamond.


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## LVC2 (Oct 27, 2006)

I'd love to see a review, biased or otherwise!

I would love to know...
1) Waterproof to what depth or standard?
2) Are the 5mm and 3W both regulated?
3) Does the 3W have a heat sink large enough to allow for extended run time?
4) Can it run on NiMH and Lithium AAs?

It might be possible to answer most or all of these questions from the packaging but alas there isn't an REI within a couple hundred miles of me.


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## leduk (Oct 27, 2006)

Its a conspiracy, I tell you, aimed to prevent the general public from getting hold of them. 

Imagine spending all that money on developing a product, bringing it to market and then on a photon friendly forum we're waiting with baited breath on a back order because there is naff all else information out there 6 months after its release.

Still, rather than guessing what its like, I'm hanging on b-stupid's review.

Cheers


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## WDR65 (Oct 27, 2006)

jar3ds said:


> i don't own a apex but it would seem to be that the reflector would fit directly inbetween the optic and flood... the optic tries to put all the light toward hotspot... while the 5mm are just pure flood... and the reflector tries to spread out like like a 5mm yet still put more light toward the center for throw...
> 
> so I have found that if I owned an apex leaving it stock would be the best option... however, i don't think people who buy the apex understand that the 5mm leds are their primary 'task' lighting...




I disagree that the 5mm leds should be the primary task lighting. I use mine when in open fields where I know where I'm going and where the drainage canals are, but for walking unknown paths or wading through flooded swamps I need both throw and spill at the same time. I can usually get by using my Apex's 5mm led's and something like the Streamlight Propoly 4AA lux, but when I have my hands full I have to go to the Apex's main beam and a bit more spill would be greatly appreciated. Wishful thinking, but something like my U2's high beam in a headlamp form with a long running belt pack would be about perfect for me, but......again that's wishful thinking.

I think it is also possible that the Icon might.......might.....outthrow the Apex because of what looks like a fair sized reflector even with one less battery. I don't know yet and haven't been able to look at one at any of the nearest REI's or camping shops, so I'll just wait and see.


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## cave dave (Oct 27, 2006)

jar3ds said:


> i don't own a apex but it would seem to be that the reflector would fit directly inbetween the optic and flood...



Actually I have a IMS17 in my Apex and the hotspot from it and the optic are pretty much the same size and brightness. So you loose nothing there. The difference is in the spill. The spill on the optic is brighter but not very big, The spill on the reflector is much bigger but not as bright. The optic also has a rings of saturn effect in the perifery.

In use I see no downside to the reflector but plenty not to like in the optic.


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## jar3ds (Oct 28, 2006)

thanks wdr65 and cave dave for the info!

when i said 'task' light I was meaning more of 'working at a table' and such... but yes walking I could see that main lux would be better... i guess I should acually just not comment too much on the apex since I don't own one...

jar3ds out


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## SolarPowered (Oct 28, 2006)

The ICON is in stock and on display at my local REI in Mountain View, CA.

It's quite similar to the APEX, but noticeably lighter.

You do have to cycle through the Luxeon to get to the 5mm LEDs.


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## LVC2 (Oct 29, 2006)

BD now has run times and illumination distances on their site.

Icon
116 g/4.1 oz w/o batteries
188 g/6.6 oz w/ batteries
IPX 4
3xAA (included)

1x3w LED 
High 70 hours... 80m @0 hours; 61m @30 min; 48m @10 hours
Med 88 hours... 57m @0 hours; 57m @30 min; 41m @10 hours
Low 104 hours... 41m @0 hours; 40m @30 min; 34m @10 hours.

4x5mm LED
High 90 hours... 23m @0 hours; 20m @30 min; 15m @10 hours
Med 108 hours... 17m @0 hours; 14m @30 min; 12m @10 hours
Low 164 hours... 12m @0 hours; 11m @30 min; 11m @10 hours.

Considering that BD only claims the Zenix IQ throws 36m the claim of 80m for the ICON should be impressive *if* it can deliver on the promise.


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## beautifully-stupid (Nov 1, 2006)

Finally got it... I'll give you my first impressions now since it's still light out.... then I'll post tonight what I really think...

----------------------

Sometimes I feel like Black Diamond's best offerings were the Moonlight and the Zenix IQ. ... not a troll... just my impression of good versus... good... 

My first impression was ... "what ?!!? no O-ring" 
My second Impression was "what?!?! no external heatsink" 
My third impression was .... "WOW!!! look at that hotspot!"

What kind of alien technology is this where a 3 watt LED headlamp doesn't need a really prominent heat sink. Surely the work must have been farmed out to APPLE who seemingly defies the laws of physics.

This thing should really throw...

and to respond to a couple of comments.... 

.... PWM.... in all it's nastiness... but only on the medium and low setting.

Check back later. I'll let you know my final word when the lights go out.


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## leduk (Nov 2, 2006)

Thanks b-s.

...................................................


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## beautifully-stupid (Nov 2, 2006)

So intrigued by it's lack of an o-ring, I decided to take my light apart. 
....
well... this and the huge fingerprint on the inside of my lens which was only made more prominent by the fog that appeared after some water got into the head unit. 

well... 

tadahh.... I don't have pictures but I'll try to describe.

there is some type of a heat sink inside... it looks like they took a long strip of metal 3/4 inch wide and folded it down, and then up again 5 times. Upon futher inspection... there is a slathering of heat sink paste all over the light itself ... Originally I thought it was epoxy since some was seen on the actual 3 watt, i'm venturing to guess that this substance serves as a decent medium for heat transfer since there is NO actual connection between the 3 watt and the heat sink. 

But where does the radiated heat go with no way to leave the body?

Leaving the cover off... and the 3 watt on ... after 30 seconds the heatsink was warm... after a minute hot to the touch. 

however... after the 5th fold the heat from the metal was tolerable.

Is there some type of heat "limiter" i'll let you guys figure that out.. 

... 

on to the rest of the light... 

The reflector on this light is impressive... It's designed for long distance spotting ... I think the only thing stopping it from doing its job... it the 3 watt LED... if the LED were brighter, this would be like a helicopter searchlight on a mountain side... truth be told I was able to light up tree tops and roof tops from over 150 feet. 

It definitely out throws my SPOT which out threw the zenix. the ICON looked about even with the Brunton L3. 

From 1 yard the hot spot was about 5 inches... 

from 30 feet... the hot spot was about 5 or 6 feet across

It has SEVEN light modes:

3 Watt
-high 
-medium
-Low

4-LED's
-high
-medium
-low
-flashing

The ICON does remember your previous mode, but not the intensity level.
i.e. if you turn it off in 3 watt, it will turn on in 3 watt, but will not remember the level of brightness and will default to the highest level. 

The 3 watt... works like a 3 watt..

The 4 Flood LED's... I've mentioned this with other Black Diamond Headlamps. Again, I'm finding some color variation on one side only. I don't know if this is intentional, but i'm quite fond of the effect... 

for those that don't like the "washed out" floody feel of some headlamps... if you have the ability, you should really try a warmer toned LED on one side, and a cooler toned LED on the other... 

For a climbing company ... I could almost see this as some unintended benefit to it's users... when reaching for a hand hold at night, I'd like as much depth perception as possible, not some washed out flood light.

---------
Tanget.... I saw a brunton 4 LED headlamp, that starts out with 1 red LED then works its way UP in brightness... I'm sure this has been discussed
---------

The headstraps are just what they are... 

the battery pack is a bit larger than it needs to be. I think this was designed to accomodate their NRG rechargeable battery. Again... there is a general lack of O-rings, but futhermore.... the light doesn't even seem designed for rain. A lip, or some type of barrier would be much better than its current design. 

OVERALL... 
This has been a great purchase for me. REI and Black Diamond both have solid warranty/ return policies. I still can't justify 20-30 dollars extra for the APEX... if the price were to drop however... there would be no contest. 

The light is AA powered... I'm still a bit leary about strapping a lithium bulb to my head. Plus.... working in fire, there is always an abundance of used AA batteries. 

In the world of headlamps, I've felt a bit underwhelmed. Like I said earlier, I feel like the Zenix and Moonlight were the last great Black Diamond offerings. Everyone else seems to be trying to "one up" their competitor by offering new gizmo's... some of the companies listen to the people ... and some go their own way and try to re-invent the wheel. 

to me ... black diamond is like the Nissan of car companies...
I remember saying once.... "a pulley based transmission sytem.... are you CRAZY?!"..

now I find myself saying... "No external heatsink?!??! are you crazy?"

Black diamond has a few new products out this fall... The GIZMO looks like a good offering with 3 LED's and 2 brightness levels, powered by 2 AAA's, at only 20 bucks, this may be my next purchase. 

and for all the engineers out there designing lights for Black Diamond, here's what I'm looking for.

-regulated
-"find me light"
-Cheap
-WATERPROOF, Dunkable.

basically... a zenix... with an updated reflector, and seals, and better battery life. 

I'd like to pay no more than $30-$35... now get to work!

I'll be keeping my Icon.


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## leduk (Nov 3, 2006)

Thanks. Nice review. 

I guess that equates about a 3 from FLR.

I'll keep the cash in my pocket.

Cheers


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## joe4444 (Nov 3, 2006)

ICON: i checked it out at REI and was pretty impressed by the brightness. I think the rechargeable battery will be a nice addition; too bad you have to buy it seperately. It's not in stock yet anywhere i looked. When i get around to buying one, i'll try to write a review of it.


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## HEY HEY ITS HENDO (Nov 3, 2006)

Hey joe , A warm welcome to CandlePower Forums  
.... looking forward to the review from you mate (and anyone else)


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## TMorita (Nov 5, 2006)

Checked my local REI, and they have a ton of Icons in stock.

It definitely does not have a heatsink visible from the outside. Beam tint was pretty good on the unit I tried - the 5mm LEDs are very white, and don't have an annoying blue tint/yellow ring.

Toshi


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## joe4444 (Nov 6, 2006)

I bought one Saturday at REI and i thought it was pretty cool. It's really comfortable. After playing around with it, I dis-assembled the front part and could see they have an internal heat sink made from folded sheet aluminum. It looks like the heat sink contacts the pivot screw which goes to the outside of the housing. My guess is that this is how any heat is disippated....(i'll wait for others to comment on that one). With fresh batteries, it didnt get very hot anyway, so maybe they arent running it at super-high current but it's hard to say for sure without getting out a meter. The 3-watt is unbelievably bright. I could see across the street and onto the neighbor's roof easily---I would say that's at least 50 to 60 yards. As was mentioned before, the 5 mm LEDs are really pretty nice---plenty of light for close-up work. Battery cover screw is OK, but could have been a bit larger diameter. The only real complaint I have is that I still cant find the NRG battery anywhere. The green color was a bit of a turn-off so I bought the silver one.


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## greenLED (Nov 6, 2006)

We need pics of that heatsink. It seems to me they cut down on the Apex's "fins" to reduce size. Cree XR-E, anyone? :devil:


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## beautifully-stupid (Nov 6, 2006)

It looks like a pretty easy mod... remove 2 body screws and the entire assembly just splays out its insides for you... give me a day or so on the heat sink. I'll post photos, ASAP.


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## spinkid (Dec 12, 2006)

beautifully-stupid, Any word on how easy to mod this will be? I saw one today at my local EMS and had it in hand then put it down figuring I would check here first. The deep reflector looks like it could be decent for the cree. Thanks.


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## beautifully-stupid (Dec 13, 2006)

It looks like it would be a pretty easy mod so long as you're not afraid of getting a little messy.

There isn't much space to play with ... note the photos... 


http://img85.imageshack.us/my.php?image=img0363nr5.jpg

The 4 white dots are how the reflector was attached to the plastic piece holding the 3 watt. The large white dot is the back of the 3 watt.

Imagine taking a piece of parachute cord, pushing it through a hole just large enough for the cord, then melting the end and flattening before it cools to keep the cord from going back through the hole... the white dots are what used to be legs off of the reflector that were melted to keep the two pieces from falling apart.

http://img220.imageshack.us/my.php?image=img0361sh5.jpg


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## spinkid (Dec 13, 2006)

beautifully-stupid, Thanks for the photo's, now I am really interested in getting this. I think I will be heading back this week for it. Now I finally have crack and make the order for the cree's for this and a few other's sitting on the back burner.


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## beautifully-stupid (Dec 14, 2006)

spinkid said:


> beautifully-stupid, Thanks for the photo's, now I am really interested in getting this. I think I will be heading back this week for it. Now I finally have crack and make the order for the cree's for this and a few other's sitting on the back burner.


 

don't forget to show us what you end up creating....


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## joe4444 (Dec 14, 2006)

I made this modification. I filed out the hole in the center reflector to fit and was careful to not damage the reflective surface (I used a fine round file and filed from inside the reflector pushing the file out only). The cree XR-E has a silver band around the LED and if you carefully file out the center hole, it will fit perfectly and give you proper light output. If you dont modify the hole, you'll get a black spot in center. I also took a jeweler's saw and trimmed off a part of the plate which the LED is mounted on...if you dont do this, the LEDs base wont fit under the Black Diamond switch. When finished (re-assembly was a cake-job), I had the Cree LED and the modified Black Diamoond reflector with stock electronics. On the middle brightness level my Luxmeter readings for the Cree were the same as the High setting on the 3-watt Lumiled. I love this light. On the middle setting it only draws 325 mA, so battery life and distance will be just right and i can push it brighter if i need to. This thing is lightweight, compact, comfortable, and now i have their NRG (stupid name. Does anyone know if these letters mean something or is it "Energy"??). Whatever, the NRG system is quite clever. You just plug it in, put the battery cover on, plug in the charger and the battery meter LEDs tell you the charge status. Then, when you pull the charger off, the Battery Meter LEDs go back to indicating battery capacity. My understanding from reading the Balck Diamond's literature, is that the Battery meter will self-calibrate for the NiMH battery or the Alkalines...not sure how or IF that really works, but if it does it's pretty cool.


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## beautifully-stupid (Dec 14, 2006)

Good job Joe! :goodjob: 

I may as well ask... Can you post beam shots? 

I was wondering about the beam characteristics... is it similar to the stock bulb, or more floody with less throw?


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## kozmik (Dec 21, 2006)

I'm close to buying the Black Diamond icon as it's bulk/weight is pretty good for a lamp with the advertised power, and the choice of spot/flood is great. Apex seems a bit bulky. Other options are Petzl...

The sticking point is water resistance, since it lacks seals according to new reviews and past products by BD. I suspect dropping in water during a night kayak or while camping... lights out. That could be a serious problem. (btw: I read the Apex also had some water resistance issues... something the industry should do better on imo. How difficult can it be?)

What do people think about water resistance in the Black Diamond products like the Icon and the Zentih IQ. (sp?) Are there any mods to increase water resistance by adding custom cut gaskets, rubber cemening parts, or something?


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## spinkid (Dec 21, 2006)

beautifully-stupid said:


> don't forget to show us what you end up creating....



I ordered the cree's today from cutter. I am now actually debating installing 1 in my myo xp for my hiking trip next month. But to stay true to the LED addiction, I think if I have time after work tomorrow I will pick up the icon to have when the cree's arrive. If I go this way, I will definetely try and post pics of it.

I almost forgot, Joe444 you have me very impatiently waiting the arrival of the cree's whether for the XP or ICON or better yet Both...


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## joe4444 (Dec 22, 2006)

i havent tried to modify a Myo with a Cree, but my expectation is that you will need a new optic as well as the LED...the Icon reflector is easily filed to fit. ALso, i have not had any water issues with my icon and i sprayed it with water from an old windex bottle to simulate rain.....nothing bad happened.


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## kozmik (Dec 22, 2006)

*bought the Icon and TikkaXP*

I bought the *Petzl Tikka XP* and the *BD Icon* yesterday... and I have a creepy feeling about my potential for LED addiction and general geekatude. :candle:

Each lamp has strengths and weaknesses, and the "perfect" lamp would be a combination of the two. (I’m considering a Myo XP now)

The *BD Icon* is imho best in class when considering in conjunction the throw/brightness, regulation, good NiMH support, and good weight/size. By comparison the Apex is also good but bulky AFAICT from store testing. The Icon spot has a useable spill. For those core features, the Icon is great.

However, the icon also has problems with case design and floods. The floods have a purple hotspot and some periphery artifacts due to the odd shaped reflectors. The Icon case lacks seals and has an unnecessary number of seams which are 3d contours and would be difficult to seal without gluing. The battery pack has a circuit board and is large for a 3AA unit. I don't really trust the icon's rain/splashability and suspect some water could intrude and cause issues.

The *Petzl Tikka XP* is surprisingly bright for its size, has a very bright boost feature for spotting, and a perfect diffuser lens for an artifact free, totally white flood. The lens also comes in red as an option. I tried taping the Petzl lens over the Icon LuxIII, and it was perfect... which makes me want a Myo XP.... only with the Icon circuitry... :sigh:

So I'm definitely keeping the Tikka XP for a lightweight lamp, which it totally excels at. I'll either exchange, mod, or learn to live with the Icon, as I also want a bright spotter and all-around long-life lamp to compliment the Tikka.

If i exchange the Icon it may be for a Myo XP, but wonder about NiMH compatibility (brightness) and lack of regulation. Any thoughts? Does the Myo XP really miss regulation?

Another option is to mod the Icon with better (whiter) floods, but I don’t know where to begin and how much time and $ that would take. I could live with the lack of water proofing and large battery pack on the Icon if the floods were improved.

Open to suggestions, thanks in advance.


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## spinkid (Dec 23, 2006)

Joe4444, I forgot to mention, I also ordered some optics just incase I need to do some more modding. Hopefully something will work.

Kozmik, A bit off subject of the Icon, but I use NiMH (Duracell 2650mA) in my Myo Xp and I have not had any problems. I actually don't have specific data regarding them as I usally charge them daily and they don't have time to really drain (2-4hrs at a time for work at night). I will say the Duracell's seem to work better than the Energizer 2500's though.


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## kozmik (Dec 23, 2006)

spinkid, are you pretty happy with your Myo XP?

Reviews seem mixed, but I'm not sure why. From the specs it looks to be bright and I like the diffuser feature as opposed to multiple 5mm LED for flood light. (if there were better 5mm LED...)

What do you use your Myo XP for? does it dim noticeably over a few hours? I imagine you probably enjoy the whiteness of the flood mode.


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## kozmik (Dec 23, 2006)

greenLED said:


> It seems to me they cut down on the Apex's "fins" to reduce size.



I suspect it really doesn't need the heatsink and neither does the Apex.


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## spinkid (Dec 23, 2006)

Kozmik, I mainly use it for work at night when on-call. It is used for working mostly within arms reach. I don't recall noticing it dim over a few hours, if it does (which I am sure it must), it isn't that noticable to me. I believe most people's camplaints are the battery pack. It really doesn't seem that waterproof. I have used it in the rain at work (walking from my truck to equipment), and never noticed any ill affects. The diffuser is awesome for me, because at work I would be working with small electronics or telco wiring outdoors and this basically creates a bright area to work with no noticable hotspot. It is plenty bright for my work. Even when hiking, after the eyes are adjusted at night, to me using the diffuser works great and you then have the ability to throw a spot to a trail head if necessary with the diffuser down.


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## kozmik (Dec 24, 2006)

*will try the Myo Xp, and possibly joe4444's Icon mod + lens + reds*

Went hiking tonight and confirmed my feelings about the superiority of the Tikka flood lens, and the inferiority of the purple hotspot in the Icon flood. Having said that, my wife loses depth perception with the Tikka flood (not a problem for me) though she agrees the purple is annoying. We both like the Icon spot and for biking it'd probably be critical. So, it's a simple matter of banging them with a can of Miller Beer, magically fusing them into the "perfect" lamp. 

*spinkid-* Thanks for the Myo info. Think I'll get one from REI to test against the Icon, and keep the winner.

*Joe4444-*
Thanks for the inspiration to mod the Icon, which may be the only way to get my "perfect" lamp. You've got me thinking crazy thoughts now.  Please post any more pictures or advice.

I'm considering these Icon mods if the Myo doesn't cut it:

1) add a removable Tikka or Myo lens to the Icon LuxIII. Want it to be quickly switchable on/off, so I'll probably hinge one edge with a flexible material fixed the the head unit, locking it up/down with little bits of magnetic tape, or possibly weak velcro.

2) Replace the Icon 5mm floods with red 5mm for night vision since I'll get my whote flood from the main lamp, and I wanted a red option anyways.

3) Replace the Icon Lux with a Cree since you seem pleased with yours. I'll have the icon open anyways, and the mod doesn't sound too difficult.

That's my "perfect" headlamp: a Petzl style lens flood, a superbright spot, and a red night vision flood.

Sounds good eh? Any problems you foresee?


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## joe4444 (Dec 27, 2006)

THe second option sounds good....I personally dont understand the theory of using a red filter over the LED. Isnt that the same as turning on the lights and putting on sunglasses?? It seems to me, just a nit -wit, that the red LEDs would be a far more efficient use of the power. I also dont understand the choice Petzl made with the MYO diffuser----same kind of deal. It just seems like you use a lot of power and then diffuse it down.


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## Skeeterbytes (Dec 27, 2006)

Generally, use of a red flashlight is a scheme for preserving your night vision. A typical reason is when you're stargazing, or want to follow a trail using no light at all. A few minutes with a bright white flashlight will blow out your night vision for hours.

You're right that red LEDs are more efficient; a red filter is just removing all colors other than red. However, there's the simplicity of a single-LED light to consider too.

I don't know how much light is lost using Petzl's diffuser, but I like the concept. Not only is it simple and low-tech, the resulting light is a lot more even than a typical 5mm LED array (IMHO, natch).

--Rick



joe4444 said:


> THe second option sounds good....I personally dont understand the theory of using a red filter over the LED. Isnt that the same as turning on the lights and putting on sunglasses?? It seems to me, just a nit -wit, that the red LEDs would be a far more efficient use of the power. I also dont understand the choice Petzl made with the MYO diffuser----same kind of deal. It just seems like you use a lot of power and then diffuse it down.


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## kozmik (Dec 28, 2006)

joe4444 said:


> THe second option sounds good....I personally dont understand the theory of using a red filter over the LED. Isnt that the same as turning on the lights and putting on sunglasses??



True, but OTOH a red filter is better than nothing and you still have the same battery life so, from that perspective, there is no noticeable loss in efficiency. Since there is so small a market for red lamps, a filter is better than nothing. My perfect lamp would have dedicated reds though because as you know they're more efficient that way.



joe4444 said:


> I also don't understand the choice Petzl made with the MYO diffuser----same kind of deal. It just seems like you use a lot of power and then diffuse it down.



I don't think much brightness (practically none) is lost through the clear lens. Personally, I like the flood a lot for the wide FOV with peripheral vision. it's a matter of personal preference, but for me the flood preserves more night vision and general awareness. 

So hey, let me pick your brain on the Cree mod. Got any pictures or tips before I do mine? You're happy with it and the beam is even right?


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## joe4444 (Jan 2, 2007)

If you guys tell me how to post pictures, I'll send some. I'm kinda dumb when it comes to these blog-threads or whatever they are called. I do have pics but have no idea how to send them out. on this site.


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## greenLED (Jan 2, 2007)

joe, go to imageshack.us and upload your pics there. Then use the code that comes up for each pic (it should say [ URL.... ) and you're good to go.


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## joe4444 (Jan 12, 2007)

looks like a major pain to do that, image by image....is there another way?


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## beautifully-stupid (Feb 5, 2007)

As my first real mod... I swapped the Icon's 3 watt with a cree that I purchased on this board. 

Initial impression was poor, but i still had not filed the reflector as described above. Man what a difference!

Once filed it does fit perfectly and the spot on my ICON remained roughly the same size as stock. 

Easy mod, of course I'll never show you the insides since there's all sorts of melted plastic and large blobs of soder not to mention the gobs of heat sink compound... not pretty, but the beam is very nice. I'm using batteries with about three hours of use and the cree on high kicked the crap out of the 3 Watt on fresh batteries.

Thanks to joe for the tips... very helpful.


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## moon lander (Feb 15, 2007)

got this light for christmas, incredible throw but a little too narrow beam. overall i love it. anyone know if it has a regulator? edit: neg that, it does. 
would be wonderful if you could use the 3watt and the 5mms together.


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## crislight01 (Apr 27, 2007)

i think the BD icon it's a very cool lamp, powerful, lightweight only uses 3 aa. the problem comes from its manufacturing, the material from wich it is made are very crappy imo(cheap plastic). the perfect one would be a ICON made with materials and manufacturing of an apex.


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## mrbubbles (Aug 4, 2007)

Is a heatsink really necessary?


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## beautifully-stupid (Aug 4, 2007)

I've read somewhere that the ICON is simply 3 watt under-driven as a 1 watt bulb. So the amount of heat produced isn't too bad.

It does get warm but like i've said... there really is no place for that heat to escape. I think the heatsink also serves to keep the internals in place.

they probably could have made the entire assembly smaller by imitating the Apex design.


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## npkeith (Sep 24, 2007)

I just got my icon this weekend. I notice that the 3w spot is noticably yellow/green compared to the 5mm floods, but on anything other than a white wall its a "who cares" thing.

The spot is tight with a usable but much dimmer spill. I would be more interested in a flood with a lot of light at a cost of distance thrown -

Could I swap out the smooth reflector for an orange peel one? Maybe convert to a Cree Q5 at the same time?

any recommendations?
-Keith


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## underconstruction (Oct 9, 2007)

Everyone's been talking about putting a Cree in one of these, but wouldn't a Seoul have a better output for the stock reflector?


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## eyecon82 (Feb 11, 2008)

crislight01 said:


> i think the BD icon it's a very cool lamp, powerful, lightweight only uses 3 aa. the problem comes from its manufacturing, the material from wich it is made are very crappy imo(cheap plastic). the perfect one would be a ICON made with materials and manufacturing of an apex.



I agree..the plastic could be better...im not a fan of apex manufacturing either...i think that award has to go to petzl. 



beautifully-stupid said:


> I've read somewhere that the ICON is simply 3 watt under-driven as a 1 watt bulb. So the amount of heat produced isn't too bad.
> 
> It does get warm but like i've said... there really is no place for that heat to escape. I think the heatsink also serves to keep the internals in place.
> 
> they probably could have made the entire assembly smaller by imitating the Apex design.



I read it is driven at ~2watts 

guys..this is unregulated...which i prefer


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## brighter1 (Mar 7, 2008)

I want to mod this light, but would like to get a few tips before I start... (1st light mod and I have a bit of history with taking things apart and not getting them back togther again)

Before I take apart the light I want to make sure I have it figured out first. It looks to me like the bottom half of the LED slides through the black plastic holder (the LED power leads stay on the reflector-side of the holder), then the four reflector posts slip through the plastic holder and are melted to hold them in place. It then looks like the heatsink snaps to the back-side of the plastic holder and thermal epoxy is used to join the LED to the heatsink. Please correct me if I have this wrong.

Do I have to melt/cut the reflector posts to get the LED out?

Should I get a bare LED, (and shim 0.030" if using Seoul) use a thermal epoxy to mount shim & LED to heatsink, then reuse the existing plastic holder, or get a LED mounted on a star and cut the star down to fit? (I am thinking that there isn't enough room to fit the star board in)

I was thinking a Seoul P4 LED would be best to replace the Luxeon, but since other people have used CREEs, are they a better choice? I have seen that a Seoul needs a 0.030" shim to replace a Luxeon, but if I go with a CREE how much shim (if any) would that need?

Thanks

Pictures by beautifully-stupid:


beautifully-stupid said:


> It looks like it would be a pretty easy mod so long as you're not afraid of getting a little messy.
> 
> There isn't much space to play with ... note the photos...
> 
> ...


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## eyecon82 (Mar 7, 2008)

what do you guys gain by modding this? I think the icon is a perfect light as is...better than the petzl IMO


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## Alan (Mar 8, 2008)

Icon has better brightness control than Apex (3 settings instead of 2).

Beyond that, Apex has WAY better regulation than Icon not to mention its unbeaten heat sink. It's true that most users look at spec like 3W, how many 5mm ... etc but missed the toughest (most expensive) part:-(

I don't understand why Apex do not upgrade its 3W to Seoul or Cree, it will increase its brightness significantly without expense of runtime.

Alan


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## eyecon82 (Mar 8, 2008)

Alan said:


> Icon has better brightness control than Apex (3 settings instead of 2).
> 
> Beyond that, Apex has WAY better regulation than Icon not to mention its unbeaten heat sink. It's true that most users look at spec like 3W, how many 5mm ... etc but missed the toughest (most expensive) part:-(
> 
> ...


I also personally like the Icon better than the apex as well...the apex is regulated...and when your battery runs low..the whole light goes out

versus unregulated...bright as firsst..and dimmer later...but i rather have a light putting out minimum lumens then no light at all.....this is very important to a backpacker


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## Alan (Mar 8, 2008)

eyecon82 said:


> I also personally like the Icon better than the apex as well...the apex is regulated...and when your battery runs low..the whole light goes out
> 
> versus unregulated...bright as firsst..and dimmer later...but i rather have a light putting out minimum lumens then no light at all.....this is very important to a backpacker



You could switch to low and Apex will continue to go. It would even better if Apex has 3 settings. I prefer Apex a lot more than Icon due to its good regulation and excellent heat sink

Alan


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## eyecon82 (Mar 8, 2008)

Alan said:


> You could switch to low and Apex will continue to go. It would even better if Apex has 3 settings. I prefer Apex a lot more than Icon due to its good regulation and excellent heat sink
> 
> Alan



I guess regulation is a personal preference...would you rather have a light that's very bright at first and then dimms.?..or just a light that has the same amount of light output throughout its life?

In regards to the heat sink, why is it more superior than the Icon's? My Icon never even gets warm to the touch after 10 hours or continued usage

Thanks for your help!


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## Alan (Mar 8, 2008)

eyecon82 said:


> I guess regulation is a personal preference...would you rather have a light that's very bright at first and then dimms.?..or just a light that has the same amount of light output throughout its life?
> 
> In regards to the heat sink, why is it more superior than the Icon's? My Icon never even gets warm to the touch after 10 hours or continued usage
> 
> Thanks for your help!



I agree that regulation is personal preference. I prefer a light has same amount of light output throughout its life. However, if the light only has one mode, this could be inconvenient as the light would shut off without warning. A good muliti-mode regulation would jump to lower mode if the battery is running low.

Your Icon has been running 10 hours without warm is because it was NOT running in regulated output in high mode. With 3AA light, it can't run 10 hours in high regulated mode. A good regulated light could maintain high output for 1 or 2 hours and you need good heat sink for it especially on light with plastic body. That's why Surefire G2 LED change its design to use metal head instead of its original plastic head.

For the moment, only Apex and Silva has good heat sink built for their LED headlamp.

Alan


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## eyecon82 (Mar 8, 2008)

Alan said:


> I agree that regulation is personal preference. I prefer a light has same amount of light output throughout its life. However, if the light only has one mode, this could be inconvenient as the light would shut off without warning. A good muliti-mode regulation would jump to lower mode if the battery is running low.
> 
> Your Icon has been running 10 hours without warm is because it was NOT running in regulated output in high mode. With 3AA light, it can't run 10 hours in high regulated mode. A good regulated light could maintain high output for 1 or 2 hours and you need good heat sink for it especially on light with plastic body. That's why Surefire G2 LED change its design to use metal head instead of its original plastic head.
> 
> ...



I actually did run my icon headlamp on bright using the 3 watt for 10 hours on high...you do notice that it is much brighter at first..and then it fades (due to it being unregulated) even on the highest setting...

and since I ran it on high unregulated...no need for a heatsink then? Thanks


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## Mark620 (Mar 9, 2008)

kozmik said:


> I suspect it really doesn't need the heatsink and *neither does the Apex.*



I have to disagree on the Apex not needing the heat sink.
I have definitely felt heat coming off the Apex heat sink.


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## ifor powell (Mar 9, 2008)

I have measured the back of the Apex heatsink at 50c with a room tempreture of 23c running on high with still air. I think that means the heatsink is doing somthing usfull there is at least an air to metal interface which is better than the majority of headlamps where everything is wrapped up in plastic.

Ifor


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## Alan (Mar 9, 2008)

Not only Apex has heatsink, it is well designed. Having heatsink in plastic light and maintain storm-proof is tough. Apex just did that. I guess they think their design is perfect, thus the light wasn't updated (except adding different battery pack) and still using the old LED and 2 settings:-(

I do like DB products especially Zenix IQ and I have 2 of them. It's 3W well-regulated headlamp but not be driven hard. For high output one or long trip, I would stick to Apex.

Alan


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## beautifully-stupid (Mar 10, 2008)

brighter1,

I'm not too familiar with newer iterations of this light.

In the older version I believe the black plastic LED retainer clipped to the assembly and was easily removeable.

The legs of my reflector were melted off, but I suppose you could also drill them through with a small drill bit.

I used a bare emitter, but when It came down to putting it all back together it got really messy.

I damaged the black clip while melting the reflector rendering it un-usable. 

honestly, the only thing holding the LED to the reflector was friction between the cree-ring and the reflector. This is why filing the reflector was so important. I suppose you chould also use some arctic almumina and schmear it everywhere. 

I was totally happy with the end result. But BD has since changed the design of the reflector so I can't be sure what you will experience. 

I've always like BD design, and appreciated how it was un-regulated. It just wasn't the most mod friendly.


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## brighter1 (Mar 10, 2008)

Thanks beautifully-stupid. I'll think about attempting this mod.


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## Cavelightchris (Mar 10, 2008)

From all of my research I think you would have to be crazy to pick the icon over the Apex. The Apex is waterproof down to 1 meter(3 feet), and the black diamond is just water resistant. The company claims that if the battery compartment fills full of water that it will still work but be very inefficient, and to make sure to take it apart and let it dry after something like that happens. I would imagine that battery acid leaking out of the batteries and rust would mess it up good. Why even bother with crap like that when you can get the Apex. If your going to spend big bucks, you might as well put it towards a light that you know is good. I heard Princeton tec makes or made dive lights, so it sounds like they know a thing or two about waterproofing. Also I just got my brother the Apex and found out the manufacturer gives you a lifetime warranty on it, does anyone know if the Icon has one of those as well, I doubt it. 

I read from someone one here that the Icon's build quality was just barely considered good, whereas the Apex seemed like a strong light when I held it and used it. Besides there is already a couple articles on here on how to modify it so that it would be 130 lumens and almost as bright as the $300 Stenlight. Considering how much the Icon resembles the Apex, and I think it probabley came after the Apex, it makes me think; who would want an Apex knockoff wannabe anyhow? The only con I saw in buying the Apex was that I paid $85(42 pounds) for it in the store, but I have seen it online for $60(30 pounds) plenty of times before. Heck the store we got it at said if there is ever a problem with it we would have to mail it in to princeten tec so I might as well of bought it off the net, but I was in a huge hurry.

About the icon being unregulated, I can't freaking imagine anybody would think of that as an advantage. Regulated lights that use 4 batteries like the Apex should be much more efficient, an much more capable of draining every single drop out of the batteries when the light goes off. People should be using rechargeables(save the planet) and just bring some backups with you. Besides a rechargeable Energizer 2500 Mah should last you twice as long as an Energizer Max alkaline anyhow.

Honestly I can't see any reason to ever buy the Icon, maybe I should read all 3 pages I thought to myself, but why, I just know nobody is going to say anything to make the Icon seem better than the Apex overall. Of course this is just my opinion and we are all entitled to one so battle on..


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## eyecon82 (Mar 10, 2008)

Cavelightchris said:


> From all of my research I think you would have to be crazy to pick the icon over the Apex. The Apex is waterproof down to 1 meter(3 feet), and the black diamond is just water resistant. The company claims that if the battery compartment fills full of water that it will still work but be very inefficient, and to make sure to take it apart and let it dry after something like that happens. I would imagine that battery acid leaking out of the batteries and rust would mess it up good. Why even bother with crap like that when you can get the Apex. If your going to spend big bucks, you might as well put it towards a light that you know is good. I heard Princeton tec makes or made dive lights, so it sounds like they know a thing or two about waterproofing. Also I just got my brother the Apex and found out the manufacturer gives you a lifetime warranty on it, does anyone know if the Icon has one of those as well, I doubt it.
> 
> I read from someone one here that the Icon's build quality was just barely considered good, whereas the Apex seemed like a strong light when I held it and used it. Besides there is already a couple articles on here on how to modify it so that it would be 130 lumens and almost as bright as the $300 Stenlight. Considering how much the Icon resembles the Apex, and I think it probabley came after the Apex, it makes me think; who would want an Apex knockoff wannabe anyhow? The only con I saw in buying the Apex was that I paid $85(42 pounds) for it in the store, but I have seen it online for $60(30 pounds) plenty of times before. Heck the store we got it at said if there is ever a problem with it we would have to mail it in to princeten tec so I might as well of bought it off the net, but I was in a huge hurry.
> 
> ...



as I said...unregulated is very imp to a backpacker...it always equals a longer light usage per charge...though it gets very weak at the end...but hey..it still runs!!

I got my Icon for $42 plus tax at REI. REI back's up all their products so if anything where ever to go wrong...id have no worries

the apex is $85 or so at the sports authority near my house...now why in the world would I pay $43 more for the apex? because of the waterproofing? nope..my already survived a torrential downpour in my last hike...so im not worried

In regards to quality...id say they both suck in terms of build quality..they both use cheap plastics....versus the PETZL..which seems to be of really high quality

if I was a millionaire and I had no concerns of $$....sure I would go with the apex....but for me..the best buy was the icon..just my $.02


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## Cavelightchris (Mar 10, 2008)

Well that is a good argument, I would have never thought you could get one for $40. That puts them in separate leagues then, like comparing a Lotus Elise to a Mazda Miata.

In the caving world we need allot of light, so as soon as an unregulated light starts getting slightly too dim I notice people switching out batteries, and so I notice people with unregulated lights having to change out their batteries more than people with regulated lights.

I didn't really think about the fact that an unregulated light might last longer in total. But efficiency wise, I was under the impression that any 3 watt LED that uses 3 batteries used a resistor, and since the resistor waists power in the form of heat shed to regulate, that it was much more inefficient. I was under the impression that a regulated light would have more lumens per per few hours in total than an unregulated light. Basically I'm trying to say that even though the unregulated light lasts longer, since it is dim for so much of the time, that a regulated light is still a better value when it comes to total amount of lumens per battery discharged.

Well anyways, if you can get an Icon for $40 I would have to say that it seems like a good value to me. That Coleman 3 watt led is $30 at ****s Sporting Goods, and it doesn't come with any little LED's like the Icon would, and so I would spend $10 more in that case.

I guess my point above is that everyone was trying to compare the Apex to the Icon, but I think the Apex kicks it's butt. Heck it should considering it's %50 to %100 more money though right.

Waterproofing can be a big deal, I used to hate the Duo, because the 1 halogen and 14 LED's seemed like pretty old technology for the $125 they were asking for the light. Once I found out it was IP X8 3 meters(15 feet) waterproof, I realized it is the most waterproof headlamp I know of for caving, and so now I think it really is worth $125 if your a serious caver who likes wet caves and has a wetsuit and uses it often.

I guess waterproofing is only as important as what you intend to use the headlamp for, if it's caving the Apex(IP X7) and the Duo seem like your only two options. I couldn't find anything on the zebralight's waterproof standards, but the company claims that it is.


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## eyecon82 (Mar 10, 2008)

Cavelightchris said:


> Well that is a good argument, I would have never thought you could get one for $40. That puts them in separate leagues then, like comparing a Lotus Elise to a Mazda Miata.
> 
> In the caving world we need allot of light, so as soon as an unregulated light starts getting slightly too dim I notice people switching out batteries, and so I notice people with unregulated lights having to change out their batteries more than people with regulated lights.
> 
> ...



You also have some excellent points that I did not realize either. You are correct, with regulated..you will get more lumens per hour...and especially that you are a caver and it is pitch black..lumens per hour is much more important...I can see how it would get annoying if it started to dim and u need to switch batts

in hiking, there is usually plenty of moonlight and the dimming doesn't bother me a bit. I just like how I can hike at night and not worry about adding excess weight by batteries in my pack. I would like to stay as light as possible. 

and it was a steal...it was originally marked as $59.99, but REI has very, very frequent sales that knock it down in the $40-50 range throughout the year. 

and I hate wet camping..so I really don't really need to spend extra money on a waterproof model...

I do get caught in occasional downpours, but it has survived them all including one in a few weeks back and it was a constant heavy downpour for 2-3 hours...and it has never had problems...it was completely exposed too, but never submerged of course


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## ifor powell (Mar 11, 2008)

Just wanted to clear up what happens with the Apex as it drops out of regulation you do not all of a suddon go to pitch black it just starts dimming down like a none regulated light. This will not always be the case with all regulated lights it will depend on the driver and battery setup.

Ifor


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## beautifully-stupid (Mar 11, 2008)

I think the ideal HL here would be one with a regulated spot and unregulated 5mm. 

or regulated until 1/3 battery life remains, dropping out of regulation for the remainder of the battery. 

I agree with both sides and prefer constant brightness, but sometimes find myself on assignments where 1/2 used batteries are overly abundant and fresh batteries are reserved for radios and such. 

my zenix iq unfortunately only gets 15-30 mins max in this situation, while unregulated lights would continue to run, although dimly. 

When you're talking about 8 hours working in a headlamp, I'll take dim task lighting over 16+ battery changes most days. 

Then again..... ......
a "switch" inside the battery pack of the apex allowing regulated (or non) would solve all our problems. :candle:


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## eyecon82 (Mar 11, 2008)

beautifully-stupid said:


> I think the ideal HL here would be one with a regulated spot and unregulated 5mm.
> 
> or regulated until 1/3 battery life remains, dropping out of regulation for the remainder of the battery.
> 
> ...


 
good points again!

this is all about personal preference..and tailored to what you'll actually use the HL for


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## FlashPilot (Jul 8, 2010)

Has anyone modded an icon for an XP-G yet? I wonder how well the reflector would work with that emitter and how the beam profile looks.


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## FlashPilot (Aug 8, 2010)

FlashPilot said:


> Has anyone modded an icon for an XP-G yet? I wonder how well the reflector would work with that emitter and how the beam profile looks.


 
*XP-G* MOD DONE!!!

I just installed a Cree XP-G R5 into my Black Diamond ICON and its now as bright as my 18650 powered P60 XP-G! Thanks to all those that contributed pictures and advice on taking this apart. The mod was very easy and can be done with confidence. After removing the screws and taking the top half off the light off (it opens up like a clam shell after you take the two screws out) I turned on the light and let it sit for 10 minutes to see how hot the heat sink got. As others have mentioned, It gets hot but not to hot to touch.

When it was apart, I sanded down the reflector so the emitter would sit inside the reflector. This is important if you want to extract every available lumen from the XP-G.

I reassembled it with thermal adhesive between the reflector, heat sync and emitter to hold it all together. Then I turned it on for 10 minutes to see how hot it got. Just as expected, this time it ran hotter than with the old luxeon emitter. I did some experimentation with the light assembled and ran it for 10 minutes (on high) and then immediately opening up the light to see how hot things got inside. It was almost hot enough to burn my fingers when everything was closed up. When I ran it with the top off, it would get very warm but not enough to burn me. My solution was to cut a rectangular hole in the top casing about the size of the heat sync. My dremel made quick work of this and it looks fairly descent. This light wasn’t water proof to begin with and its never been wet in the many hours I've used it through the years. The emitter and lens assembly is tight enough to keep dust out and I'm very happy with it.:twothumbs The BRIGHT hot spot takes up about 1/3rd of the total beam and the spill is quite bright. Although I have no way to test it, the low beam on the XP-G is brighter than the old luxeon on high beam. On high beam, the light is probably about 4X brighter and with 4x wider beam than the luxeon it replaced.:thumbsup:

This is the best $7 upgrade Ive ever done, thanks to this part.


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## FlashPilot (Aug 22, 2010)

When left on high beam for extended periods, it did get quite hot. To conduct the heat, I modded an old heat sink from a computer CPU and used thermal adhesive to attach it to the top of the stock Icon heat sync (through the top panel I previously opened up with my dremel tool... read above). Now is stays cool. This lamp is like wearing a well driven, light weight, compact, 1 x 18650 XP-G on my head.

Check it out! :thumbsup:


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