# Blind to 1200 lumens?



## dudemar (Jun 12, 2008)

*NOTE TO MODS:* If this isn't in the appropriate section feel free to move it to the right place. Thanks.

Long story short: Had a little incident outside my house. Heard some kids (and by kids I mean 16 year olds) outside my house, they got out of their cars and said "did you hit it?", as if they hit something with their cars. I unloaded 1200 lumens *directly in the eyes* of this kid 25-30' from me for 10 seconds, and he didn't even flinch. He stood there and stared directly into the hot spot like it's nothing, his eyes were wide open. Deer in the headlights. I intentionally directed the hot spot into his eyes, too.

My question is, is this normal? Is my AEX 20 malfunctioning? This kid must've been drunk/high/under the influence of something, because if someone did that to me I'd _at least_ close my eyes momentarily or shield my face. He didn't even squint. His eyes would have been night-adapted as well, it was pretty dark outside.

My Xenide 20W seems to be functioning properly, it's still as bright as it was when I first acquired the light.

I got curious, so I tried blinding myself in a lit room at 25' for 10 seconds, with said Xenide. At first it's blinding, then I got used to it a bit, then it got downright uncomfortable. And yes, I squinted the whole time (as you can imagine). Now I have spots in my vision.

Any thoughts?


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## TOOCOOL (Jun 12, 2008)

So let me get this straight, someone stops to see if they have hit something or someone and instead of going over with a flashlight to help out you blind them


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## Flashanator (Jun 12, 2008)

_



I unloaded 1200 lumens directly in the eyes of this kid 25-30' from me for 10 seconds, and he didn't even flinch. He stood there and stared directly into the hot spot like it's nothing

Click to expand...

_ROFLMAO! Stuborn little kid. He doesnt appreciate your light. 
This is hilarious, you just stood there blinding him??? Without knowing why they stoped??? 

Im not familiar with that light, but 1200lumens isnt anything to close your eyes at. Some ppl are different.


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## adamlau (Jun 12, 2008)

I am certain that there is more to this story, but based on what you have posted, why would you intentionally try to blind someone?


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## dudemar (Jun 13, 2008)

Haha, you guys' responses are hilarious.

There is more to the story. That was the ultra-condensed version so it sounds kinda strange. I'll start again:

First off, I'd like to start by saying I live in a shady neighborhood. Very shady. As in my next door neighbors deal crack and people vandalize my car for no reason. I'm surrounded by stupid people.:sick2: Hope this gives some perspective on things.

Like I said, I heard some high schoolers outside say "aw damn, did you hit it?". I listened in for a minute or two from inside my house, and with AEX20 in hand I went outside to see what's up. Two wankstas (hardcore Eminem wannabes) were walking around their cars parked in the middle of the street, and I politely asked:

Dudemar: "is everything ok?"

Wanksta #1: "nothing's going on"

Dudemar: "you said you hit something?"

Wanksta #1: "we're looking for his dog." (all the while they were kinda laughing)

Two high school kids looking for a dog at 1:30 in the morning sounded lame. Especially when they just then parked their cars in the middle of the street. At 1:30 in the morning. I smelled bull$#!t. After they drove off I fired up my Xenide to see what's what, but there was no dog, no trace of anything.

Five minutes later they came back. I stepped outside, this time they arrive in a red minivan, and yes, they parked that in the middle of the street. The 16 year old was standing in the middle of the street in complete darkness. He was obviously up to no good. My porch light was off so I too stepped out in darkness, and fired up my Xenide. I asked him what he's doing out here:

Wanksta: "I told you man, I'm looking for a dog."

Dudemar: "What does it look like?"

Wanksta: "It looks like a dog."

Dudemar: "Is it big? Small? Tall? Skinny? What color is it?"

Wanksta: "I don't know, it's a little thing, it's like a chihuahua."

At this point he was tripping on his own words, and I wasn't going to settle with him j

Dudemar: "OK I'm not buying your story, I'm going to ask you to leave."

This is where I flashed the hot spot of the Xenide directly in his eyes.

Wanksta: "I don't like you flashing that light in my face."

Dudemar: "I'm not buying your story one bit, please leave."

Wanksta: "You better get that light out of my face."

Dudemar: "Or else what?"

Wanksta: "Man, whateva, you can't do nothing to me. I'll f**k your stuff up, just watch."

He walks back to his red van and his buddy starts it up. I should've got his plate number, I was really tired and it just didn't click for me at the time. They drove away, and I immediately called the cops on them.

They never came back.

For whatever stupid reason, kids in my neighborhood use the "dog" excuse all the time. Kids will jump on the roof and hood of my car as if it were playground equipment. I'd ask them why the hell they do that, and every time they'll say a "dog" was chasing them. Funny, because every time that happens - guess what? There is no dog. I've been living in the same house for 20 years, I would know if there's a dog running rampant in the neighborhood.

Besides my long-winded story, are there any experiences where 1000+ lumens just wasn't enough to blind someone? Is anyone here at CPF extremely tolerant of pointing an HID in their eyes?:duh2: Do I need to go Polarion? One of the big reasons behind me buying an HID is the ability to temporarily blind someone. If I can't do that that's a bummer.:sigh:


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## Pila_Power (Jun 13, 2008)

Dude, don't go outside asking for trouble.

Next time you could get badly hurt for sticking your nose where it shouldn't be.

Just call the cops and stay safely inside.


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## LuxLuthor (Jun 13, 2008)

How do you know that is a 1200 lumen light? I have a lot of hotwires, and have seen what people claim for lumens to sell their lights, or how they use a nearly worthless AWR Hotrater spreadsheet taken from Welch Allyn's website formula for their bulbs....and suffice it to say, it is not accurate for many bulbs, and certainly not beyond about 15% overdrive.

Assuming it was more than 500 bulb lumens, if the guy was either on drugs, or just not moving from the light to be a tough guy and standing up to you (even though he was blinded)...the main thing is you wiped out his ability to see anything. Obviously it also depends on his distance from your light, state of battery charge, age of bulb, etc.

It's one thing to go out with only a light as your offensive/defensive weapon...quite another if you were packin' heat as a backup. Most of us wouldn't do what you did....cause you don't know if they have a gun, high on drugs, his night to make his bones, etc.


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## WDG (Jun 13, 2008)

dudemar said:


> Besides my long-winded story, are there any experiences where 1000+ lumens just wasn't enough? Is anyone here at CPF extremely tolerant of pointing a flashlight in their eyes?



I doubt I'd find it very comfortable, but my eyes aren't as young as they used to be.

I trust you have something more than just a flashlight at hand for these things, yes? (For your legal protection, do NOT answer that.)

Sounds exactly like the kind of neighborhood I'd be impatient to move out of.


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## BlueBeam22 (Jun 13, 2008)

Sorry to hear about what happened, if it happens again I suggest you call the police right away.

I don't think 1200 lumens is enough to blind. The light you would need would be a 5-15 million candlepower spotlight, which should have a much brighter hotspot than your HID flashlight. I have quite a few and they are sickeningly bright and disorienting when someone shines them in my face from a distance.

I still don't think it would be a good idea to shine the spotlight on them because they might try to do something harmful to you, but you might want to get a powerful spotlight just for fun!


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## Burgess (Jun 13, 2008)

Just a suggestion . . . .


If possible, consider a video surveilance camera(s).



Good Luck, and stay safe.

_


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## Flashanator (Jun 13, 2008)

Your second story part was even more funny. L0L  Srr 4 ur bad neighbourhood.

I would def use the Maxabeam for those situations :rock:, Uber light, no other light would do it for me. Hit them with strob mode. 

I actually used my 1000w on a bunch of hoons in a car doing a monster burn out on our street. They took off pretty fast


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## TorchBoy (Jun 13, 2008)

Am I the only one wondering why we're talking lumens not candelas?


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## paulr (Jun 13, 2008)

You're reading too much Surefire marketing crap. The "blinding" thing is a myth. A sudden bright light can momentarily surprise or disorient someone. After a few moments you get used to it. Consider the distance you were at and figure out the illumination level in lux that was hitting the person from your light. Then compare that to the lux level of daylight that most people experience every day, and you'll see, no flashlight makes enough lumens to really impair or melt anyone at that distance.


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## Patriot (Jun 13, 2008)

dudemar said:


> Besides my long-winded story, are there any experiences where 1000+ lumens just wasn't enough to blind someone? Is anyone here at CPF extremely tolerant of pointing an HID in their eyes?:duh2: Do I need to go Polarion? One of the big reasons behind me buying an HID is the ability to temporarily blind someone. If I can't do that that's a bummer.:sigh:




I suppose I'd have to ask what reaction you were expecting and in turn what that expectation was based on? The loose term, "blind" is making it even more difficult to relate to what outcome you might have anticipated. If you thought that it should have cause him to be unable to see for 30 seconds, consider this. We've all looked into the headlights of an oncoming car with it's brights on. It's annoying, and destroys your low light sensitivity for several seconds. You may even see spots when you blink for minutes afterwards. Personally this has never caused me and accident or to even drive off the road and I'd be surprise if it's happened to many others. It's a visual disruption and nothing more. 

For whatever reason, I think many of us make assumptions or have predispositions about what a "bright light" is going to do when shinned at someone and I think that's were you need to look in order to get to the bottom of your question. Where do your assumptions regarding this subject come from? Was it from comments people have made here? A salesman at a local gun shop? Maybe a magazine advertisement or something in a movie? My point is that you had an expectation that didn't go the way you thought is was going to go. Instead of trying to figure out why a defiant punk didn't cower to the beam of your light, maybe the question ought to be, why did you think he would.

I have no doubt that your light is 1200 lumens or within 10% of that figure. The kid probably would have been defiant know matter what you shined at him. The situation that you described has nothing to do with the tactical application of light because there was no surprised involved, no threat. You practically carried on a conversation with them before shining your beam at them, at God knows what distance. My guess is that they probably thought you were off your rocker or drunk yourself. It's not like you lit the place up first and said what's going on out there. You had already been talking to them and when you didn't get the answer you wanted you decided to shine the light at them. They weren't intimidated by you and they wanted you to know it. Frankly I don't understand where the mystery is. This situation had everything to do with psychology and nothing to do with lumens.

In some cases, light can be used to gain a tactical advantage in a threatening situation by leveraging you a couple of extra seconds to plan your next course of action when the chips are down. The situation described above was more like a beam shot opportunity and it's a shame you didn't have your tripod and camera handy. :shakehead Honestly, I believe you would have been better off to stand at your doorway or porch with a cell phone to your ear, talking to the police. It's a lot lower profile but still gets the point across.


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## climberkid (Jun 13, 2008)

Dont let them bully you dudemar!  that probably would have been my first reaction too, considering what you put up with there. understandable you wanted to try to get back at them. (unless you werent) i look for excuses to use my lights too. as long as you know the possible consequences of situations like that i think you are alright.:candle:


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## tebore (Jun 13, 2008)

Sounds like you need to enact the castle law on them.


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## Window_Seat (Jun 15, 2008)

Sorry you live in a s#|++y neighborhood. I second what some of the others have said, and would immediately call the cops in the future.

I have been debating between the 1500 Lumens AE x25, and the MicroFire K3500, and have been learning lately that many of the HID lights are overrated as far as the number of lumens. This may be the reason you didn't get much of a reaction (other than the choice of words from your suspicious individual).

I once was in a truckstop (my regular dropping point) for my nightly run in CA. An individual approached me and my vehicle sort of rapidly, and he appeared to have an agenda in mind. I had my UltraStinger in my hand, and was doing a pre-trip inspection with it. This is when the UltraStinger came in handy because I was able to get this "character" to back off pretty quick.

According to a video presentation on the Pelican LAPD, one effective technique in temporarily blinding and confusing an individual is to use the light as a strobe effect in their eyes.

Erik.


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## Ken J. Good (Jun 15, 2008)

Strobe lights in police work....

Man I wish I would have thought of that...


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## dudemar (Jun 15, 2008)

Window_Seat said:


> Sorry you live in a s#|++y neighborhood. I second what some of the others have said, and would immediately call the cops in the future.
> 
> I have been debating between the 1500 Lumens AE x25, and the MicroFire K3500, and have been learning lately that many of the HID lights are overrated as far as the number of lumens. This may be the reason you didn't get much of a reaction (other than the choice of words from your suspicious individual).
> 
> ...



Strobe's an option, I'll keep that in mind.

Ken: Were you being sarcastic? Just curious.


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## IMSabbel (Jun 15, 2008)

People are different.

During Karate class, one teacher was really frustrated that arm-bars dont work with me. Even though normally my pain threshold is rather low, i wouldnt feel anything before displacing the shoulder (which should not be done in training).

Same for light. That guy might just notice its damn bright, but decide not to give a poop.
Btw, it that neighbourhood was really shady, wouldnt blasting somebody directly into the eyes, especially with _other_, also shady people standing next to him, not blinded, be _asking_ for a knife or a bullet?


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## Burgess (Jun 15, 2008)

I can see the Perp testifying in Court:


" He was aiming his Weapon-Light directly at me, and i felt threatened, so . . . . "



(sigh)
_


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## Juggernaut (Jun 15, 2008)

paulr said:


> You're reading too much Surefire marketing crap. The "blinding" thing is a myth. A sudden bright light can momentarily surprise or disorient someone. After a few moments you get used to it. Consider the distance you were at and figure out the illumination level in lux that was hitting the person from your light. Then compare that to the lux level of daylight that most people experience every day, and you'll see, no flashlight makes enough lumens to really impair or melt anyone at that distance.


 
Except the tank light


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## adamlau (Jun 15, 2008)

A PH50 directed into the eyes at short range...Hmm...This is material to be considered for our next shootout  ...


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## climberkid (Jun 16, 2008)

i will be the subject! :devil:


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## Patriot (Jun 16, 2008)

dudemar said:


> Ken: Were you being sarcastic? Just curious.




I think that Ken was the one, or one of the ones who developed the concept.


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## climberkid (Jun 16, 2008)

seriously? thats awesome! lol


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## dudemar (Jun 16, 2008)

I re-tested the AEX20 at 30' on myself, this time I set the light at my eye level. It is without any doubt it's more than enough light to temporarily blind someone, and make one feel some degree of discomfort or disorientation after a few seconds of exposure to the hotspot. I myself am incredibly tolerant of bright lights and pain, and I honestly couldn't stare into it for very long. After 10 seconds of exposure I felt some nausea as well.

I believe the guy I flashed was calling a bluff- just trying to stand his ground. He didn't stay around for very long, though.:laughing:



adamlau said:


> A PH50 directed into the eyes at short range...Hmm...This is material to be considered for our next shootout  ...



This is the alley I'm looking down...



Patriot36 said:


> I think that Ken was the one, or one of the ones who developed the concept.



If this is true that's really cool.:naughty:

To Ken: I am seriously considering a PH50 in the near future... as soon as I save up enough cash.:twothumbs


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## GTO_04 (Jun 16, 2008)

Aren't you risking eye damage looking into an HID at that distance? I would be wary of making myself the test subject. Now intruders, that's a different story. Test away on them!

GTO_04


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## Patriot (Jun 16, 2008)

dudemar said:


> If this is true that's really cool.:naughty:




Have a look at this: http://www.polarion-usa.com/media/Foundations.html
and take special note under the INNOVATION heading with regard to the Gladius, the first compact, strobing, tactical light.


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## baterija (Jun 16, 2008)

dudemar said:


> I myself am incredibly tolerant of bright lights and pain, and I honestly couldn't stare into it for very long. After 10 seconds of exposure I felt some nausea as well.
> I believe the guy I flashed was calling a bluff- just trying to stand his ground. He didn't stay around for very long, though.:laughing:



Probably a reasonably accurate on his state of mind. He was more motivated than you were to stand it. Think about the trapped hiker who cut his own arm off with a pocketknife as an example of what someone with the proper motivation can stand. Your subject may have also had his pain perception chemically impaired. He probably was still pretty blind to anything outside the beam at that point.

That said you took a light to a potential fight that you knew you were outnumbered in. I am glad that you are able to post after it. You left the more defensible terrain of your home. You gave up the psychological advantage of surprise by allowing them time to get their nerve up during a verbal confrontation. Given the quality of your neighborhood, they may have been armed. A brighter light may be marginally more useful. If things go bad it's still just a light in potential fist/knife/gun fight against multiple threats. Your odds could be helped more by decisions other than light choice.


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## Stereodude (Jun 16, 2008)

Ken J. Good said:


> Strobe lights in police work....


What about disco balls? :thinking:


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## Ra (Jun 16, 2008)

Hi guyzz,

Not that it's important, but 1200 lumens can burn retinas!! It just needs to come from a source as small as possible. A 35 milliwatt green laser does not put out more than 10 lumens or so.. And even that one that can burn retinas! I have 1300 lumens mercury short-arc bulbs, you definitely don't want to look at those for 10 seconds or more at close range!! The scars in your eyes will propably be for keeps!



All the best,

Ra.


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## dudemar (Jun 16, 2008)

Ra said:


> Hi guyzz,
> 
> Not that it's important, but 1200 lumens can burn retinas!! It just needs to come from a source as small as possible. A 35 milliwatt green laser does not put out more than 10 lumens or so.. And even that one that can burn retinas! I have 1300 lumens mercury short-arc bulbs, you definitely don't want to look at those for 10 seconds or more at close range!! The scars in your eyes will propably be for keeps!
> 
> ...


 
At last I now have some expert testimony to back up the potential effectiveness of HID.:twothumbs Thanks Ra.



GTO_04 said:


> Aren't you risking eye damage looking into an HID at that distance? I would be wary of making myself the test subject. Now intruders, that's a different story. Test away on them!
> 
> GTO_04


 
Agreed, I'll blast away at the bad guys instead.:naughty: 

Need to clear a few things up: Everyone's talking like there was a phalanx of high school nerds outside. It was one pube. I understood the risks I took and accepted them as such. Everyone (including law enforcement) takes a risk when you stand up against someone. I'm gung-ho when it comes down to this kind of thing, I just don't (and will not) tolerate this kind of $#!7 any more.

*Going off subject*

I'm sick of the cops never coming out. By the time the situation's over the cops will arrive 2 hours later, _if they come._ It was my choice and my responsibility, and I had the guts to go out there to do something about it. I'm just sick and tired of the excuses society makes for these pubes, just so they can run rampant and do whatever they want.

'Nuff said.

*Back on subject*


Dudemar


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## dudemar (Jun 16, 2008)

Patriot36 said:


> Have a look at this: http://www.polarion-usa.com/media/Foundations.html
> and take special note under the INNOVATION heading with regard to the Gladius, the first compact, strobing, tactical light.


 
That is just way too cool. Thanks for the article Patriot36.:twothumbs


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## Patriot (Jun 16, 2008)

Back to the original focus point of the thread "lumens" I think that you had more than enough light had it been a tactical situation. Undoubtedly the guy in the street was impaired by the light to some degree. "blind" is a subjective term and in this case I'll take it to mean the the target couldn't see what you were doing while he was being illuminated. So, in that regard he was "blind" to your actions. Once again, I don't feel that it was an issue of not having enough light. Operators frequently use lights far less powerful to accomplish their tactical needs. Maybe the title should have been something along the lines of, "punk resisted 1200 lumen blast" or something to that effect. I still don't have a problem with your title though since at the time you were still trying to figure out exactly what happened. So please don't take my thought as a hint to change it. I was just illustrating an idea. I'm sure that you handled the situation the best you could during the stress. 

One more thought if you're still having trouble and the cops don't do anything. Perhaps, carry a video camera out with you next time. It seems that people who are up to no good would rather flee than have their picture taken.


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## TorchBoy (Jun 16, 2008)

Ra said:


> Hi guyzz,
> 
> Not that it's important, but 1200 lumens can burn retinas!! It just needs to come from a source as small as possible.


Am I _still_ the only one wondering why we're talking about lumenzz not candelas? Not that it's important. :nana:


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## CbusRog (Jun 17, 2008)

To the OP; What you did would be considered as _offensive_ in most jurisdictions. (_You instigated the confrontation_). These guys were not bothering you directly. While I totally agree with your frustration (I live under similar circumstances), you have to be careful.

If you are prepared to confront people with a bright light, hopefully you are prepared to defend yourself in other ways. Don't start anything you can't finish.


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## Pila_Power (Jun 17, 2008)

You sound like a cop cbus...

(Edit: Not that I think there's anything wrong with that at all - I realised I soundeed like I was being snide - not me!!) :thumbsup:


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## LuxLuthor (Jun 17, 2008)

TorchBoy said:


> Am I _still_ the only one wondering why we're talking about lumenzz not candelas? Not that it's important. :nana:



No....and as I mentioned in my previous post above, and in this post, it wouldn't make much difference if we were talking lumens or candelas, but rarely are either terms useful or seriously questioned when applied to a specific light....let alone the dropoff with the inverse square law taken into consideration in a story like this.


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## [email protected] (Jun 17, 2008)

paulr said:


> You're reading too much Surefire marketing crap. The "blinding" thing is a myth. A sudden bright light can momentarily surprise or disorient someone. After a few moments you get used to it. Consider the distance you were at and figure out the illumination level in lux that was hitting the person from your light. Then compare that to the lux level of daylight that most people experience every day, and you'll see, no flashlight makes enough lumens to really impair or melt anyone at that distance.



The term blindness is relative to the situation for example at night such a bright light would definitely rob you of your 'night vision' effectively blinding you until you retina's recovered. :thumbsup:




TorchBoy said:


> Am I _still_ the only one wondering why we're talking about lumenzz not candelas? Not that it's important. :nana:



Perhaps you haven't yet considered the fact that 1200 Lm was mentioned originally because that IS the manufacturer's specification for the OP's encounter light? :thinking:

*dudemar*... I can understand your frustration when having to deal with these _oxygen thieves_, it's like if we all hide inside and await the arrival of the overworked under resourced cavalry (Ie. Law Enforcement) then all we are doing is surrendering our freedoms to this street trash, in hindsight you would've been in a better position with that light of yours mounted off some type of assault rifle eh?


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## dudemar (Jun 17, 2008)

CbusRog said:


> To the OP; What you did would be considered as _offensive_ in most jurisdictions. (_You instigated the confrontation_). These guys were not bothering you directly. While I totally agree with your frustration (I live under similar circumstances), you have to be careful.
> 
> If you are prepared to confront people with a bright light, hopefully you are prepared to defend yourself in other ways. Don't start anything you can't finish.



Last time I checked you can't be arrested or prosecuted for shining a light at someone. At least not yet.

Seriously guys, no more knee-jerk posts please. Scaring me into submission will not change where I stand on things.



[email protected] said:


> *dudemar*... I can understand your frustration when having to deal with these _oxygen thieves_, it's like if we all hide inside and await the arrival of the overworked under resourced cavalry (Ie. Law Enforcement) then all we are doing is surrendering our freedoms to this street trash, in hindsight you would've been in a better position with that light of yours mounted off some type of assault rifle eh?



Agreed [email protected], it's reassuring to know someone feels the same way I do. I should've mounted the Xenide on my Desert Eagle, lol.

Maybe I'm better off with the Weaver stance.


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## TITAN1833 (Jun 17, 2008)

Has anyone heard of arc- eye :mecry: lol


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## TorchBoy (Jun 17, 2008)

[email protected] said:


> Perhaps you haven't yet considered the fact that 1200 Lm was mentioned originally because that IS the manufacturer's specification for the OP's encounter light? :thinking:


Sure it is. But... so what? It's a starting point but little else. The output in lumens has little to do with how much light is actually getting to the victim, er, target, which would be an intensity of light, not an amount. (I think LuxLuthor's first post was referring to this.) So obviously 1200 lumens was NOT "unloaded ... directly in the eyes of this kid". Wouldn't it be more sensible to ask something like "What was the _intensity_ that the guy actually experienced and is it enough to [whatever]?" This is CPF after all, and if any place on the Web is going to be able to assess something like this it should be us.


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## Pila_Power (Jun 17, 2008)

^^ Yeah fair point. 

I believe our police call it assault if they get flashed by a cars high beams or a bright light.

I have no proofiness of course but I had heard of that. meh foundless theories.....


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## Patriot (Jun 17, 2008)

Geeeez, I hope everyone is kidding about pointing at light mounted on a weapon with regards to the described situation. This wasn't a life threatening scenario and responding with a brandished firearm would land you in jail.

Maybe we were just "macho talking" though.....


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## dudemar (Jun 18, 2008)

Patriot36 said:


> Geeeez, I hope everyone is kidding about pointing at light mounted on a weapon with regards to the described situation. This wasn't a life threatening scenario and responding with a brandished firearm would land you in jail.
> 
> Maybe we were just "macho talking" though.....



It was just that, my Desert Eagle comment was in jest.

That will definitely land you in jail, if not dealt a heavy hand by the coppers.

Shining a light into some punk's face will get you a high five.:naughty::twothumbs:devil:


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## [email protected] (Jun 18, 2008)

TorchBoy said:


> Sure it is. But... so what? It's a starting point but little else. The output in lumens has little to do with how much light is actually getting to the victim, er, target, which would be an intensity of light, not an amount. (I think LuxLuthor's first post was referring to this.) So obviously 1200 lumens was NOT "unloaded ... directly in the eyes of this kid". Wouldn't it be more sensible to ask something like "What was the _intensity_ that the guy actually experienced and is it enough to [whatever]?" This is CPF after all, and if any place on the Web is going to be able to assess something like this it should be us.



What are you going on about? fact is the OP shone a 1200 Lm rated light's beam focus in the face of some scumbag (during a low light encounter) isn't that straight forward enough? If you want to derail this thread with some Lumen Vs. Candela debate I suggest you head over HERE instead where you'll find one already in progress! 





dudemar said:


> Agreed [email protected], it's reassuring to know someone feels the same way I do. I should've mounted the Xenide on my Desert Eagle, lol.
> 
> Maybe I'm better off with the *Weaver stance.*




LMAO you had me there... not being a gun 'aficionado' I had to Google that one up! 




Pila_Power said:


> ^^ Yeah fair point.
> 
> I believe our police call it assault if they get flashed by a cars high beams or a bright light.
> 
> I have no proofiness of course but I had heard of that. meh foundless theories.....



I believe that has more to do with 'dazzling' oncoming drivers with your highbeam (and illegally adjusted HIDs) and is a demerit + fine penalty :thumbsup:




Stereodude said:


> Originally Posted by *Ken J. Good*
> 
> 
> _Strobe lights in police work...._
> ...



Maybe in some Spike Lee movie! ROTFLMAO


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## Pila_Power (Jun 18, 2008)

Yep - I meant on a more confrontational level, if you're purposfully high beaming a copper or shining your light in his eyes it's assault. If they blast you with theirs, it's ok cos they kinda need to see if there's a prob.

Spike Lee.... hmmm I must be in that generational gappy thing.


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## That_Guy (Jun 18, 2008)

[email protected] said:


> What are you going on about? fact is the OP shone a 1200 Lm rated light's beam focus in the face of some scumbag (during a low light encounter) isn't that straight forward enough?



The thing is not all of those 1200 lumens are going into that persons eyes. A dual tube 4 foot fluorescent produces far more than 1200 lumens, but isn't at all blinding to look at because only a very small fraction of those lumens enter the eye. When a light is being shone at someone the only thing that matters is the throw (candlepower/candela), the lumens are irrelevant. A 10mW green laser only produces around 5 lumens but is extremely bright to look at because a much greater percentage of those lumens enter the eye.


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## [email protected] (Jun 18, 2008)

That_Guy said:


> The thing is not all of those 1200 lumens are going into that persons eyes. A dual tube 4 foot fluorescent produces far more than 1200 lumens, but isn't at all blinding to look at because only a very small fraction of those lumens enter the eye. When a light is being shone at someone the only thing that matters is the throw (candlepower/candela), the lumens are irrelevant. A 10mW green laser only produces around 5 lumens but is extremely bright to look at because a much greater percentage of those lumens enter the eye.


I realize that... but the OP had to quickly describe their light in the thread title, the simple solution was the manufacturer's Lumen rating, lets not make a mountain out of a mole hill :thumbsup:


This is a little reminiscent of saying a 500Bhp engine is really only a 450Bhp motor because it loses XYZ% through the drive train, however in the automotive world they will continue to call that a 500Bhp vehicle


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## windstrings (Jun 18, 2008)

Ra said:


> Hi guyzz,
> 
> Not that it's important, but 1200 lumens can burn retinas!! It just needs to come from a source as small as possible. A 35 milliwatt green laser does not put out more than 10 lumens or so.. And even that one that can burn retinas! I have 1300 lumens mercury short-arc bulbs, you definitely don't want to look at those for 10 seconds or more at close range!! The scars in your eyes will probably be for keeps!
> 
> ...



Yep, and an easy way to tell if you permanently fried some of your rods that receive light is to go outside at night and let your eyes get used to the dark for about 5 minutes and look up into the sky and find one of the faintest stars you can find.

If the star is "brighter" when you look slightly beside it rather than directly at it.. then you fried "to some degree" the most sensitive part of your eye to light... so much so, that the less sensitive part now actually picks up light better than the focal point of the retina that is normally the most sensitive....

How do I know?.... I used to love frying ants and playing with a magnifying glass when I was a kid... .looking at that white blinding dot for too long did it for me.

An HID light gives off a tremendous amount of light.. your eyes will protect themselves and constrict down... but its assumed you won't keep staring at it either... as most people look away from a painful adverse stimulus rather than into it.... Whenever you do what is not natural.... you usually pay.

I have a friend whos dad stared into the sun when he was a kid... he lost most of his ability for night vision.


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## adamlau (Jun 18, 2008)

[email protected] said:


> This is a little reminiscent of saying a 500Bhp engine is really only a 450Bhp motor because it loses XYZ% through the drive train...


This is an absolutely relevant point to the purist and true enthusiast. I assume that we are all aspring purists and flashlight enthusiasts, are we not? Lumen vs. candela appears to be a notable aside to this discussion.


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## Icebreak (Jun 18, 2008)

windstrings -

I've good news for you. It's likely your vision is undamaged. Your experience sounds like "averted vision". Google it if you want to know more of the physiology. It's an astronomy technique.


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## BVH (Jun 18, 2008)

Windy, fear not, you have not necessairly damaged your vision. What you describe with regard to having to avert your vision to see faint objects at night is 100% normal. This article does an excellent job of describing why averted vision works best at night. In a nutshell, the rods (used fror night vision) are not located in the center of the eye as the cones are. Therefore, when you avert your vision off center, more rods are exposed to the light, therefore, objects are brighter. 

http://www.noao.edu/outreach/nop/nophigh/eye.html

Now, what do I get for giving you this new lease on life/vision for the rest of your life?? Here you thought all these years that you did a bad thing only to find out that it is not so. That's worth a lot in my book. Hmmmm....a PH50 would be nice....


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## Patriot (Jun 18, 2008)

That_Guy said:


> The thing is not all of those 1200 lumens are going into that persons eyes. A dual tube 4 foot fluorescent produces far more than 1200 lumens, but isn't at all blinding to look at because only a very small fraction of those lumens enter the eye. When a light is being shone at someone the only thing that matters is the throw (candlepower/candela), the lumens are irrelevant. A 10mW green laser only produces around 5 lumens but is extremely bright to look at because a much greater percentage of those lumens enter the eye.





These are all good points That Guy. I think that we realize now that all those lumens aren't going into the retina. When talking about the tactical use of lights it's understood that some of the light makes it to the eyes and most doesn't. When compared to the inventors and leaders in tactical light industry, Surefire, the AE described in the story has about twice the output of SF's top incan light and a much smoother reflector providing better throw. It's from that perspective that most of us here agree that the OP wasn't "under gunned" in the light department. We're only taking the 1200 number into consideration by comparing it's relative performance to other well know tactically proven lights. I personally believe the AE light was sufficient to disrupt the subject's night vision acuity at least as well as any other "tactical" light available considering the strange layout of the incident. Would a strobing Maxabeam have been better? Probably, but then he didn't have one and my guess is that the kid still would have stood that and looked stupid because he was determined to. 


EDIT
To some extent the lumens are still relevant because as you mentioned, many of them go to waste. Since a beam angle with the dimensions of a laser isn't practical the light is distributed into a reasonably sized, useful cone. The more lumens within a given beam degree, the better.


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## LuxLuthor (Jun 19, 2008)

Patriot36 said:


> ...light is distributed into a reasonably *sized, useful cone*...



Go ahead, you can say it: "*Steradian*."


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## Patriot (Jun 19, 2008)

LuxLuthor said:


> Go ahead, you can say it: "*Steradian*."




Lux....I'm too stupid to use that word. :huh: Yes, I did have to look it up. It appears that a (ste)radian is about 65 degrees. Isn't that a smidget wider than the AE's 6 degree focused beam though...lol.  Maybe the word is (nano)radian......


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## LuxLuthor (Jun 19, 2008)

Patriot, I thoroughly enjoy your many posts and contributions, and believe our learning new flashaholic things is at a similar rate. When you have the time (& interest) I think you will understand this if you read the interchange between my posts here and That_Guys. 

Note the links and specific chapter items to get the heart of the info. I had to read a number of these sources several times before I actually figured it out....and in the process you start seeing how other "sources" mostly do not understand or use the terms properly.

Just looking at the images 7.1 & 7.2 on p. 29 and captions in the Ryer PDF explains visually what Steradian means. If you only read pp 29, 30, & 32 which is very little text_ (ignore charts on pp. 30 & 31)_, you will be "light years" ahead of most people's understanding of these various terms.


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## DM51 (Jun 19, 2008)

Shows what I know, lol. I thought Steradian was that stuff old guys use when they take their teeth out and leave them in a glass of it beside the bed overnight to clean them.


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## windstrings (Jun 19, 2008)

I do feel better knowing that everyone else is just as blind as me....... 

thanks for the link... I learned something again.


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## BVH (Jun 19, 2008)

Hmmm....are you one of those "cup half empty" kind of guys?


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## Patriot (Jun 21, 2008)

Great links Lux.

I had never seen the disscussion between you and Thatguy because I had boycotted that thread and I wouldn't have been back there otherwise. 

I'm probably a little slow at this kind of info because I've literally had to revisit the links several times over many days. I really like how the steradian was explained in a logical way along with all the other good info. You must have libraries of those kinds of PDF files stored...lol. Thanks for sharing them. 

At least I can take pleasure in knowing that not even my spell checker knew what the word was...haha.


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