# whats the maximum current to drive a q5?



## aussiebuddha (Sep 10, 2007)

any idea guys?
thanks


----------



## leeleefocus (Sep 10, 2007)

It very much depends on how well you heatsink it. From memory Newbie ran a P4 cree above 2amps.


----------



## aussiebuddha (Sep 10, 2007)

Hmm, for some reason it doesnt sound very safe without some very advanced heatsinking with nitrogen or sumthin 

Also I'm not looking to fry my LED or reduce its lifetime considerably.
I just want to take as much advantage of its power as possible.


----------



## DonShock (Sep 10, 2007)

IIRC, the rated current maximum for the Cree XR-E LEDs is 1000mA. That's where I've been setting most of my mods to run. I did set a single LED mod at 1.15A just because I didn't have a resistor available to tweak it closer to 1A, but I haven't done an extended runtime on it.


----------



## aussiebuddha (Sep 10, 2007)

have you got a lumen output comparison?


----------



## DonShock (Sep 10, 2007)

aussiebuddha said:


> have you got a lumen output comparison?


I have absolutely no clue about the lumens output. No meter and my judgment for a guesstimate bites.


----------



## Doh!Nut (Sep 10, 2007)

The maximum rated current is 1Amp.
If you want to drive it to this level it should be epoxyed to a good heatsink. You can drive it harder and it will be a little brighter and last a bit less time.

What you can be sure of is that your returns will be diminishing as you push the LED harder.
Doubling the Current from 350ma to 700ma gets only 70% more light, taking it to 1000ma would get you a little more than double the output of 350ma even though you are using nearly 3 times the power.


Nick


----------



## Gunner12 (Sep 10, 2007)

As leeleefocus said, the maximum safe current all depends on how well you heatsink the LED. I'm guessing with a good heatsink, like the one gene43 uses in his Malkoffdevices Maglite drop-ins, 1.5 amp shouldn't be a problem. But efficiency goes down as power goes up.


----------



## Gryloc (Sep 10, 2007)

If you want it to be driven to produce a lot of light, might as well go with more power than it's "max" rating. LED dies are pretty durable. Usually the bond wires fuse open with excessive current before any noticeable damage occurs to the LED (I noticed that 3A can do it -an accident). Luckily, the Q5 uses 4 bond wires (two for positive in and two for negative in). As long as you do not go above 2A and you keep the emitter from its max allowable temperature (keep it under at least 100 degrees C I believe), you shouldn't notice much (if any perhaps) degradation. If this is for a flashlight, then I doubt you would notice any decreased output. Even though increased heat diminishes the "life" (the lumen maintenance) by a few thousand hours, you probably will not see it since the flashlights are not used for more than a couple of hours a night (unless this is for professional use). If this is for fixed lighting and you plan for it to be on for many hours, then go with the rated "maximum" rating of 1A, or even underdrive it to a comfortable 700mA or something. Remember that the old Luxeon V had a measly ~500 hour rating, and those are still running strong in our flashlights.

Sure efficiency decreases more at over 1A, but do not forget that with these efficient LEDs, you should stay at over 40lm/W (a Q4 Cree, according to evan9162's testing) even at levels as high as 2A. Just think that the old Luxeon III emitters got just over 25lm/W at around 1A (for T and U bins).

I am not telling you to do anything that you are not comfortable with. I just wanted to tell you that higher drive currents can be safe for these emitters. I have driven several LEDs (from the K2, to the Cree XR-Es, the Seoul P4, and even the new Rebel) past 1A with success (1.5A+ with the XR-E and Seoul P4 and 2A with the K2 and Rebel). None of it may be "recommended" by many, though.

I would say that 1.5A is pretty safe for your Q5. It is not too much current to cause much heat trouble, but it will aid with boosting the lumens. How many you get is entirely uncertain. Evan9162, jtr1962, or Newbie needs to do testing on this Q5 beauty. My next light will be a 2C M*g with a Rebel 0100 or Q5 XR-E driven at 2A. Talk about an intense light with an intense beam with that big reflector! 

Here, Evan9162 tested the Cree XR-E Q4:
https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/172379

And here, he tested the Rebel 0100 (with some results from jtr1962, also):
https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/169547

LEDs are getting cheaper and easier to get nowadays, easier to install (more flashlights designed for them), and plus they are getting very efficient (less heat produced per watt of electrical energy put in). Maybe I say this because I love big and powerful things and I do not mind living more on the dangerous side. I do not know. If this is a fun light and you have the extra heat sinking and the extra energy to spare (with batteries or power supply), then have fun! These days you can afford to do so (I remembering babying my old Luxeon emitters back in the day). I hope I didn't disturb any of the super efficient EDC flashlight members. I have a couple super low power lights. I just think about the most lumens squeezed out of the emitter for most utility. Lumileds have the same vision (their new "K2" driven at 2A), as does Cree (with that prototype single emitter LED driven at 4A). Well, good luck!


----------



## aussiebuddha (Sep 10, 2007)

wow mate, excellent response, thank you very much.
My idea was driving it at less than 1.5a which shoiuld be a good compromise. so you give me more peace of mind.
Also, I'm planning to install a multimode driver and use it in low when i need to.

now to find a 1.5a multimode driver, dx and kai dont have any :-(
so if anyone knows where to get em, i'd appreciate it.


----------



## Nereus (Sep 11, 2007)

I have driven a XR-E at ~2,2 amps for short periods of time, say, 1-2 minutes with no problem. The led was glued with Arctic Silver to a Hotlips heatsink. ~3 amps killed emitter within seconds.

Now one of my XR-E Q5 leds is running happy at 1,5 amps in my aspherical mag.

-N


----------



## mailint (Sep 27, 2007)

Nereus said:


> I have driven a XR-E at ~2,2 amps for short periods of time, say, 1-2 minutes with no problem. The led was glued with Arctic Silver to a Hotlips heatsink. ~3 amps killed emitter within seconds.
> 
> Now one of my XR-E Q5 leds is running happy at 1,5 amps in my aspherical mag.
> 
> -N


 
Very interesting!

Did you use batteries? if so, what type and number?


----------



## Nereus (Sep 28, 2007)

mailint said:


> Very interesting!
> 
> Did you use batteries? if so, what type and number?


 
I used 4 AA nimhs and direct drive. However, the battery holder was quite crappy and it acted as a series resistor. The led may have died with true direct drive from 4 AA nimhs.

-N


----------



## Darell (Sep 28, 2007)

Here's my insignificant data point... that amazed me.

I accidentally put 2.3A through a string of three XR-E's. I could not BELIEVE how bright it was, and in probably just over a second I realized the problem, and cut the power. What amazes me is that there seems to be no harm done. If these had been Lux3's the game would be over. I wouldn't drive them like this on purpose, but was happily surprised to see that they survived it for a short burst.


----------



## mailint (Sep 28, 2007)

Nereus said:


> I used 4 AA nimhs and direct drive. However, the battery holder was quite crappy and it acted as a series resistor. The led may have died with true direct drive from 4 AA nimhs.
> 
> -N


 
Interesting. Did you use them in serie without voltage reduction (thus 4x1.2V nominal)? what was the real voltage at the leads?

Anyway, with 2xAA, do you know any method that beats direct drive? I heard of "boosters"... do you know something about these? do you know of capacitors able to accumulate and release high voltage&current for many seconds?


----------



## easilyled (Oct 1, 2007)

I have an Icarus tri-lux light with 3 Q5 XREs wired in series
to a BB500.

In other words each led sees 500ma.

A massive amount of light is produced while still running this setup
relatively cool and not taxing the leds at all. 

I would guess 350 effective lumens total output
(taking into a/c reflector/lens losses)

This is the way to go for extra brightness whilst preserving the life
of the leds - also the "diminishing returns" mentioned above
don't apply at 500ma


----------



## mailint (Oct 1, 2007)

easilyled said:


> I have an Icarus tri-lux light with 3 Q5 XREs wired in series
> to a BB500.
> 
> In other words each led sees 500ma.
> ...


 
I'm mostly interested in the lumen/size ratio. I want a micro flashlight. What batteries are your using?


----------



## easilyled (Oct 1, 2007)

mailint said:


> I'm mostly interested in the lumen/size ratio. I want a micro flashlight. What batteries are your using?



In this set-up 1 17670, 2 CR123s or 2 RCR123s all work.


----------



## mailint (Oct 1, 2007)

easilyled said:


> In this set-up 1 17670, 2 CR123s or 2 RCR123s all work.


 
Did you compare it with a Fenix Digital P2D or P3D RB100 in turbo mode?


----------



## easilyled (Oct 1, 2007)

mailint said:


> Did you compare it with a Fenix Digital P2D or P3D RB100 in turbo mode?



Are you kidding?. It produces *350 lumens total output*. 

I don't think I need to compare it with lights that are rated
by the manufacturer to only produce half that output, when 
this is an *actual* rating, not a claim by a manufacturer.


----------



## Nereus (Oct 1, 2007)

mailint said:


> Interesting. Did you use them in serie without voltage reduction (thus 4x1.2V nominal)? what was the real voltage at the leads?
> 
> Anyway, with 2xAA, do you know any method that beats direct drive? I heard of "boosters"... do you know something about these? do you know of capacitors able to accumulate and release high voltage&current for many seconds?


The batteries were connected in series, so the total voltage was 4,8V. Due to the resistance of the battery holder, this was not the voltage the led was seeing. I did not measure it but I guess that the led voltage was somewhere around 4V at 2+ amps.

When it comes to (super)caps, I'm afraid that they need to develop much more before they are a serious choice for powering a flashlight.

Do you mean a step-up converter with booster?

-N


----------



## mailint (Oct 2, 2007)

easilyled said:


> Are you kidding?. It produces *350 lumens total output*.
> 
> I don't think I need to compare it with lights that are rated
> by the manufacturer to only produce half that output, when
> this is an *actual* rating, not a claim by a manufacturer.


 
I'm not so expert but when I hear that one produced a light that emit two times the total output of Fenix light of the same/similar size I'm skeptic.
The question of my inexpert mind is: if such a huge improvement is possible without apparent drawbacks, why don't Fenix or any other top-level flashlights producer do it? 
I don't think that the Fenix R&D can be so retarded...
Do you have an explanation?


----------



## mailint (Oct 2, 2007)

Nereus said:


> Do you mean a step-up converter with booster?


 
I don't know... What is a step-up converter?


----------



## evan9162 (Oct 2, 2007)

mailint said:


> I'm not so expert but when I hear that one produced a light that emit two times the total output of Fenix light of the same/similar size I'm skeptic.
> The question of my inexpert mind is: if such a huge improvement is possible without apparent drawbacks, why don't Fenix or any other top-level flashlights producer do it?
> I don't think that the Fenix R&D can be so retarded...
> Do you have an explanation?



If you read his post, you would see that the light he's describing is using * 3 Q5 XR-Es at 500mA*. A single Q5 would output around 150 lumens at 500ma. 3 makes 450 lumens. Factor in reflector and lens losses, and 350 is perfectly reasonable. There's nothing unrealistic about the output given what's in his light.

Reading is fundamental.


----------



## mailint (Oct 2, 2007)

evan9162 said:


> If you read his post, you would see that the light he's describing is using *3 Q5 XR-Es at 500mA*. A single Q5 would output around 150 lumens at 500ma. 3 makes 450 lumens. Factor in reflector and lens losses, and 350 is perfectly reasonable. There's nothing unrealistic about the output given what's in his light.
> 
> Reading is fundamental.


 
So for what reason on this earth the flashlight producers doesn't realize a flashlight with similar lumen in the same small space?
it's totally obscure to me...


----------



## Calina (Oct 2, 2007)

mailint said:


> So for what reason on this earth the flashlight producers doesn't realize a flashlight with similar lumen in the same small space?
> it's totally obscure to me...


 
Some flashlights do exist with that kind of output.
Why don't we see more of them? Size and PRICE I suppose.


----------



## Bogus1 (Oct 2, 2007)

mailint said:


> So for what reason on this earth the flashlight producers doesn't realize a flashlight with similar lumen in the same small space?
> it's totally obscure to me...


 
For years custom flashlight builders and primarily modders have been custom building lights that make manufactured lights look down right wimpy! Surefire and a few others managed to keep their lights to a high standard and still produce great lights, but they don't really compare to custom lights. The 3x Q5 setup is custom built by Icarus, a very meticulous flashlight modder. These Chinese manufacturers read CPF and other flashlight forums and over time absorb what others build and then they build their own lights, mostly to lower standards and lower prices. 

As Evan said you may want to read more to answer your own question. This is almost like asking why a dragster is faster than a factory built car, except that custom lights can be built to be more reliable than the cheap flashlights in the market as well, so you have your cake and eat it to. The caveat being that custom lights cost more, you need to know what you are looking for (and something about them), and they can be "obscure", hard to find and there is often a wait. CPF is a hobby forum and it's not just a manufacturer support site!


----------



## Long John (Oct 5, 2007)

mailint, this Icarus-Custom-build is reality too:







Multiple ermitter lights are the brightest Led-lights.

Some manufacturers are going the same route,i.e. Barbolight, FoxFury, WiseLed.....

But have in mind, quality isn't cheap.

Best regards

____
Tom


----------



## jtr1962 (Oct 5, 2007)

My Q5 testing results:











Not shown on the charts but I did go to 2 amps. Output was 335 lumens, efficiency was 44.7 lm/W. In other words, not much to be gained over 1.5A in terms of lumens, and this was with pretty good heatsinking. In a typical flashlight my guess is output would level off at 1.5A or less due to die temperature rise.


----------



## mailint (Oct 5, 2007)

hmm.. that head seems very big though..
isn't it possible to concentrate all the LEDs in the centre and use a single smaller reflector?


----------



## mailint (Oct 5, 2007)

Price is not my problem. I search for the light with the highest total output lumen that I can always keep in my pocket forgetting about it.
I saw the sites of Barbolight, FoxFury and Wiseled and those flashlights are BIG and HEAVY. They don't compare to the micro flashlights of for example Fenix. I imagine that this is the reason why Fenix don't make them. They are another type of product, another market.

A tri-LED flashlight like the Barbolight U-09 (http://www.barbolight.com/es/productos/pdf/ficha_u09.pdf) has a weight of 350gr without batteries.
At this weight (and size) I bet that there are HID lights with 500+ total output lumen. Why don't you buy one of these?


----------



## Long John (Oct 5, 2007)

mailint said:


> At this weight (and size) I bet that there are HID lights with 500+ total output lumen. Why don't you buy one of these?



I don't own a U-09 but some other multiple Led-lights, also in a smaller form factor.







I'm not looking for the brightest available light, so HID's are out of my interests (I'm Led aficionado).

Any light is a compromise, but my lights have to be reliable, well build and have to fulfill their tasks, costs are a bit part.

So Fenix lights are nice little lights for their price and have many supporter here at CPF, but they are not the brightest and reliablest lights out there and far away comparable with Custom-lights we are speaking about.
Also the title of this thread: "whats the maximum current to drive a q5?" is out of my personal interest, due to the fact, that any Led is more efficient and will lasts longer at lower driving levels.

So like I said, for more brightness I prefer multiple Led-arrays instead driving a single Led over its specs.

Best regards

____
Tom


----------



## mailint (Oct 5, 2007)

Long John said:


> So Fenix lights are nice little lights for their price and have many supporter here at CPF, but they are not the brightest


 
"They're not the brigthest" because you're comparing apples (Fenix)with watermelons (the multi-LED flashlights you're talking about).

I still have to find a flashlight of the size (8cm x 2.1cm) and weight (39 grams) of a Fenix P2D Premium 100 with higher total output in lumen of it, at any price.
Not to mention the "Special Edition Q5 Fenix P1D CE" (7.1cm x 2.1cm or 2.8in x 0.8in) (27 grams or 1.0 oz) and 180 declared lumens.


----------



## Long John (Oct 5, 2007)

mailint said:


> "They're not the brigthest" because you're comparing apples (Fenix)with watermelons (the multi-LED flashlights you're talking about).



Sorry but I don't want compare apple with watermelons or something else.

My intention was, answering your questions, because I got the impressions, that your knowledge about flashlights, specially multiple ones, isn't that great.

When I say, Fenix-lights are not the brightest I know what I'm talking about and I don't compare them with multiple ones!

In the size of the Fenix-lights (1xCR123, 1xAA and 2xAA) yes, I own these models: P1D-CE, modded L1P and modded L2D I can tell you:

*These are not the brightest* :nana:

I own other lights in the *same size with 1 ermitter*(indeed Semi/Custom-lights), which are brighter.

But my apology to you for your confusion.

Addition:

Thinking about your last post and reading your profile/posts I got the impression, that you are looking for trouble/discussions here at CPF?

You quoted me while blaming, I would compare apples with watermelons, and you cutted my whole sentence where I stated:

".......out there and far away comparable with Custom-lights we are speaking about."

What's your problem?

I don't want waste more time with you anymore but think about your procedure here with members, who spends time and efforts for you, taking and posting pictures to show you the real world size in comparison to the hand, and in return getting blamed?

That's a no go.


____
Tom


----------



## mailint (Oct 5, 2007)

Long John said:


> In the size of the Fenix-lights (1xCR123, 1xAA and 2xAA) yes, I own these models: P1D-CE, modded L1P and modded L2D I can tell you:
> 
> *These are not the brightest* :nana:
> 
> I own other lights in the *same size with 1 ermitter*(indeed Semi/Custom-lights), which are brighter.


 
I don't doubt that you're more expert than me but the comparation brings nowhere if done so approximatively. I'm sorry.
My last references were not the standard P1D-CE, modded (with what???) L1P, modded (with what???) L2D. I
was precisely referring to the Rebel 100 version of the P2D, and even better to the Cree Q5 version of the P1D CE.
A standard (Cree P4) P1D CE is rated 135 lumen while the Q5 version is rated 180 lumen from the same manufacturer, so it makes no sense to say that the P1D CE is not the brightest in its size/weight. What P1D CE?

PS: I appreciated your pictures but I disliked the fact that you confuse critical discussion with blaming


----------



## Long John (Oct 5, 2007)

I have read your statement here:



mailint said:


> I'm not so expert but when I hear that one produced a light that emit two times the total output of Fenix light of the same/similar size I'm skeptic.
> The question of my inexpert mind is: if such a huge improvement is possible without apparent drawbacks, why don't Fenix or any other top-level flashlights producer do it?
> I don't think that the Fenix R&D can be so retarded...
> Do you have an explanation?



I posted here the first time in this thread, after evan 9162 and others tried to explain the reason for the brightness of a multiple Led-light.

If you means, Fenix is a "top-level flashlight producer" and ......it is "total obscure to you"...........that's your problem.



mailint said:


> So for what reason on this earth the flashlight producers doesn't realize a flashlight with similar lumen in the same small space?
> it's totally obscure to me...







mailint said:


> A standard (Cree P4) P1D CE is rated 135 lumen while the Q5 version is rated 180 lumen from the same manufacturer, so it makes no sense to say that the P1D CE is not the brightest in its size/weight. What P1D CE?



If you believe statements of manufacturers......it's your problem too.

I said:



Long John said:


> So Fenix lights are nice little lights for their price and have many supporter here at CPF, but they are not the brightest and reliablest lights out there and far away comparable with Custom-lights we are speaking about.



Read again what I said, it doesn't matter which Fenix.

I don't want argue about Fenix lights or something else with you, because I don't like your kind of association.
Only for your information to be not in total darkness:

Any light with a Flupic-board which drives a SSC U-bin, Cree Q5, comparable Edixeon......, powered by a LIR in any host will be brighter than a Fenix-light.....



mailint said:


> Price is not my problem. I search for the light with the highest total output lumen that I can always keep in my pocket forgetting about it.



Keep in mind, *you* are looking for a light, not *me or other members* who wants to help you by advices and suggestions.

Good luck for your search.

____
Tom


----------



## Gryloc (Oct 6, 2007)

mailint,

Yeah, it isn't good to be a pain to someone that could potentially help you with finding a flashlight. At CPF, we are almost all hobbyists. Very few of us actually design and build flashlights. We can all tell you facts about lights and which are brighter, which are bigger, which have better quality, and which use which batteries, electronics, and LED emitters. However, none of us (maybe except for some of the full time modders) have the time, money, or resources to design extreme cutting edge lights that provide über amounts of light in a light the size of a Fenix P2D or similar. I promise you that you can build a light the size of a Fenix (any of them -I do not feel like specifying) that is brighter than any Fenix you can buy, but there just aren't the resources to have it done right this instant just for you. Manufacturers probably cannot do it where it would cost the same as a current Fenix light. It is like asking on a PC modding forum if someone can get a Shuttle-sized motherboard (they are extremely small by the way) that features a quad core processor and 8 gigabytes of RAM and built on video that is comparable in performance to the latest $400 video cards. In theory, to have a computer that performs the same as a full sized professional PC in such a small size may be able to be done, but not now with the mindsets of most manufacturers. This is an odd comparison, I know, but it sounds similar to what you are asking.

We are still early on with the development of LEDs (I think). We have a ways to go! Actually, most LED emitters are not even designed for the sole use in in flashlights. Most were designed to be used in area lighting, back-lighting, and in signage. The Rebel is a hit according to Lumileds. This is not because the flashlight industry is going goo goo over them due to their small size, but because other manufacturers in the general lighting area are buying these less costly solutions. 

There are plenty of modders and manufacturers here that can built some awesome flashlights (some that will surprise you in its small size). Unfortunately, for now, we have to compromise with size and shape and weight with the current resources that we have available for modding and making a flashlight (LED emitters, driver electronics, reflector dimensions, and especially batteries). 

If Microsoft and Cree/Lumileds got together, along with Sanyo or Energizer, and finally some large electronic components company (National Semiconductors or Fairchild electronics for example), and they decided to build a complete line of flashlights using most of their resources, then, finally, we will have flashlights that may fit you. If not, you can speed the process by donating a few million dollars to Cree or Lumileds to help with the development.

I would recommend building some patients and some understanding of how our friendly forum works, and see how things go. The Q5 XR-E and the Rebel 0100 is one of the top efficient LED emitters available. The only way to get more light is to add more of them to your flashlight (hence the multi-LED flashlights). Smaller reflectors do not mean much if you want more LEDs in a light. You will end up with a lousy beam that is too wide, or that is not reflecting enough light from the emitter. Make sure you understand parabolic reflectors and the possibilities about beam patterns before you ask for such a feat. Talk to McGizmo about making reflectors for the small Rebel 0100 that is smaller than the tiny 11mm wide reflector he designed lately. He will probably ignore you, or if he would tell you what would happen to the performance of the reflector, you would leave very dissatisfied! 

Whether you power you single super-efficient emitter at higher power, or if you add 2 more for a tri-LED light, you will then hit the wall of battery performance. Current Li-ion batteries are one of the top performing rechargeable cells available lately, but you will get some lousy runtime by powering a high power LED or even three of them at lower power from a AA sized cell (14500) or a RCR123 cell.

Also, if you can find a suitable host flashlight body, then you will be set. You could custom machine it if you cannot find an already made host, but it is not easy if you have no skills to start with.

Am I clear enough? You have to go with a slightly larger flashlight to get better performance. Long John, thank you for sharing that Icarus-Custom. That is truly a small multi-emitter light! My heart sinks that I could probably never could afford such a quality light as that (look at the polished nickel/chrome coating!). I built a quad Seoul P4 U-bin 2D Maglite. Each emitter is running at 1A and I say this is spewing out over 700lm (being conservative). This is using technology that is well over a half a year old or so. It is a bit big, and it runs off of 6 AA NiMH cells for about 1 hour. I am happy that I own such a beast. I hope to do something similar using the latest in LED technology, using a smaller 2C host, but I need to build my finances first.

So mailint, sit back and relax and read some more about flashlights and how they work and how they are made. You can learn so much here that it is amazing! It will hit you that you cannot have your super-torch of your dreams as you can buy a small and super-fast Indy car or a beautiful hot-rod with a modified big-block engine. Flashlights are a young technology that you have to be patient with. Learn something here before you ask for so much. That is all I am saying. 

Finally, if you would like to, you could learn how to mod. If money is not a concern, then you can try fitting 3 Rebel 0100 emitters in your P3D with 3 custom modded McR-10 reflectors (trim them so they will all fit in a triangular fashion), and a small sized boost circuit and a small li-ion cell. You will get plenty of light (>350 lumens) for about 30 minutes of run time. It can be done if you spend time and money. This was the set up that I was thinking about earlier when I said that you can have a P2D sized beast. 

Well, I have typed enough. I hope you will see the light soon (that is a light pun that you encounter here at the CPF by the way). With your energy and curiosity (and persistence, too), you could be a great flashlight maker if you could learn the appropriate related material. If you feel like just searching for the ideal light, then good luck with your search. If all else, forget about flashlights for 5 years and then come back to the CPF. You may finally find your ideal flashlight when the technology matures. Later...

-Tony


----------



## mailint (Oct 6, 2007)

Thank you very much Tony,

I really appreciated the richness of contents of your message.



Gryloc said:


> mailint,
> I promise you that you can build a light the size of a Fenix (any of them -I do not feel like specifying) that is brighter than any Fenix you can buy, but there just aren't the resources to have it done right this instant just for you.


 
Do you also think that noone in CPF created it and posted a picture and some specifications of it? if no, I could search through CPF to find it...
I already searched on multiple places and found nothing of the size of a P1D CE Q5 and brighter, from a manufacturer or done by a modder. Even nothing very near to it, to be sincere.



Gryloc said:


> Manufacturers probably cannot do it where it would cost the same as a current Fenix light.


 
I'm ignoring the price. I'm considering flashlights of the size of the Fenix at any price, and I currently find nothing better.



Gryloc said:


> It is like asking on a PC modding forum if someone can get a Shuttle-sized motherboard (they are extremely small by the way) that features a quad core processor and 8 gigabytes of RAM and built on video that is comparable in performance to the latest $400 video cards. In theory, to have a computer that performs the same as a full sized professional PC in such a small size may be able to be done, but not now with the mindsets of most manufacturers. This is an odd comparison, I know, but it sounds similar to what you are asking.


 
The fact is that I don't think that Fenix is "most manufacturers", as you write. I see it more like a manufacturer that try to stay on the state-of-the-art on the micro flashlights. Anyway, since I'm an IT professional, I get the comparison with PCs and take it further: think to notebook PCs. Currently the most extreme UMPC on this earth are done by manufacturers, not by modders. I think to the OQO 2, to the Sony Vaio UX, to the Raon Vega, etc. There's no single modder that have the resources needed to improve the electronic or these UMPCs. Manufacturers work for the mass and have and can spend millions of dollars to test and even personalize the components to be inserted in the UMPCs. The same happens with cellular phones. I consider the HTC Tytn II the most (technologically) extreme cellular currently available. I know no "modder" that have a cellular technologically better in the hardware than HTC Tytn II in the same size.
Can't it be like this for the micro-sized flashlights?




Gryloc said:


> Smaller reflectors do not mean much if you want more LEDs in a light. You will end up with a lousy beam that is too wide


 
My hypothesis was to put the 3 LEDs on the center very near each-other with an unique reflector smaller *than the sum* of those three reflectors, if it doesn't cause heat problems. My interest was related to this configuration.



Gryloc said:


> You have to go with a slightly larger flashlight to get better performance.


 
Well, here you're fundamentally contradicting Long John who believes that Fenix top-of-the-line lights can be considerably enhanced with better combinations of components.
And even on bigger sizes, wanting the higher output/size ratio, it doesn't even make sense to me a 350 lumen tri-LED flashlight that weights 350 grams when I can have 540 (declared) lumen sticking together three P1D CE Q5 that weight 27 grams each and are probably smaller in total size. 
I also have the suspect that you can beat ANY light by joining together multiple P1D CE Q5 till you reach the weight and size of the competitor light  Think to 1800 (declared) lumen in 270 grams..

PS: to answer to Tom, if I continually use the word "declared" is because I don't believe to them, otherwise I would have not used the word. Anyway I read a measurement on the old P1D CE P4 that gave 111 lumen against the 135 declared lumen. To me this means that I can expect approx. 150 lumen out of the 180 declared lumen of the Q5 version, that doesn't change my beliefs.


----------



## Gryloc (Oct 6, 2007)

Wow. I do not even know what to say next...

Firstly, in your previous post, you just posted a quote from no-where and said that I said it! WTH? Who's butt did you pull that out of? 



mailint said:


> gryloc said:
> 
> 
> > _My hypothesis was to put the 3 LEDs on the center very near each-other with an unique reflector smaller *than the sum* of those three reflectors, if it doesn't cause heat problems. My interest was related to this configuration._


Where did I say that? Are you rewording something I said? If so, you better not do that again and put it in quotes saying I said it. Maybe you quoted someone else and said it was by me. I cannot explain it. Can you?


I am not sure how I am contradicting Long John? When I said that you can have a light the size of a Fenix that is brighter than a stock Fenix, I mean that you can do so with a Flu-pic (which can sometimes deliver more current to the LED) to increase brightness some. It will probably not impress someone like you. For it to be much brighter, then you have to go with a larger light that include multiple emitters. Did you forget that I said you will need larger batteries for more power, so that will increase size? If you want put three LEDs in your Fenix, you will need smaller reflectors, so that will make the beam look floodier. To retain throw, you have to use three larger reflectors like you seen in that Icarus custom. Larger means something the size of your Fenix reflector (which has a rather wide beam) or larger. There is an exception with that McR-10 reflector for the Rebel. That reflector is smaller because the LED is much smaller. That reflector is designed specifically for the Rebel.

Secondly, weight does not always matter. Geesh! Maybe it will if you are wearing baggy pants without a belt or something. You cannot compare Fenix light with everything else (size and weight). If you want to strap 10 Fenix P1Ds together for weight reduction, feel free to do so. Weight size is not always proportional 1:1 to its size. Oh, and are you sure that the 27g figure includes the battery? A lightweight Li-ion AA cell weighs about 23g. NiMH AA cells are noticeably heavier.

Also with weight, larger flashlights have to be heavier because they have to be tougher. They also have to take care of the heat from the LEDs. Therefore, the aluminum has to be thicker in the body, and also there has to be a hefty heatsink to dissipate the heat from 3 or 4 LED emitters. Batteries will weigh more. Even the glass lens will weigh more. Quality lights also use materials that are heavier. There are different Aluminum alloys that manufacturers and flashlight builders use with different properties (with weight being one of them). Some premium lights are even using machined stainless steel and titanium. If you made a large flashlight with the same thin construction as the Fenix, you will have a lousy light that will dent easily, as well as LEDs that will simply overheat. It is a simple case of material properties.

I do not care if the best PC components are made by manufacturers and not modders. I shouldn't have used that comparison since you are a IT professional and you know more than me about that topic. Flashlights are different. Modders (I believe) turn out the most advanced flashlights. It is manufacturers that often get ideas from the modders and general flashlight collectors. Many manufacturers still use technology that is over a year old because they do not listen to the customers and the pros. Fenix isn't really top of the line (that term is not even a good one). Sure they use the best emitters, but that does not mean much. I can slap a Q5 on a 3AA holder from RatShack and put a similar reflector and get similar output. 

As for price, most likely, no manufacturer or modder will create a flashlight that is extremely out of the price range range of most buyers. There are some really expensive lights that are over $400, but there is also a set of customers that are willing to buy that light. For a super-high performance flashlight that emits 400 lumens and is the same size and weight as a Fenix that costs $600, there will be only one customer -you. Therefore, it is not profitable to make a light like that. It is simple economics. For a modder, it may be somewhat different if you begin a project with them. If you pay them enough, they will make the best light that they can with their resources. It will take time (projects can take many months or a even a year for such an extreme light). When you say cost doesn't matter, then manufacturers are out of the question. It is simple...

As you can tell, I am responding to your post from the bottom then up. Noone has made a light with the requirements that you set (as far as I know). The idea of fitting 3 Rebels and 3 of the 11mm reflectors may be mostly mine (unless the original designer McGizmo came up with the same idea when he was designing the reflector months back), so as far as I know, noone has built it. You will not find it in previous posts. It can be done in theory, but not too many modders would be interested in do this. As for the FluPic mods, I cannot tell you when those were made and where the results were posted. So far, it seems that you believe that we live in the year 2010 with flashlights and even crazy bright flashlights are easy to come by. LED Flashlights are early in development (as I said before). 

As for brightness, be careful with saying your light produces exactly 150lm when you doubt that the manufacturers claim of 180lm is unrealistic. You can not guess on these things when there are no integrating sphere results from an unbiased source as a hobbyist from CPF. Some estimates have been made with various Fenix lights, but that also depends on the emitter used and the type and number of batteries used. Your lumens will vary depending on the current being sent to the LED and the losses due to the reflector, the lens, and heat. Some modders consider losses, some don't (for simplicity). Most often, a modders results can be more accurate than one from a manufacturer (especially the Asian ones that raise their lumen values to make their light look better -simple marketing).

In addition, it can be so annoying when someone new comes here and claims just how perfect their Fenix is. Fenix is not the only light in the world. They are far from being perfect! I still cannot stand to fork over $60 for a small light that is dimmer than what I am used to. You have to try brighter flashlights to see how they sort of suck (but you will get a bigger light). Dimmer flashlights can be smaller, but some are even bigger, but that does not make them any less of a useful tool. Again, not everything can compare to a small Fenix.

So, once more, flashlights are different. They are not crazy bright and super compact yet (if you want something brighter than what the Fenix offers). There are not enough time and resources to make such a light. Manufacturers do not find it profitable to make a super bright, super compact light that costs more than what 2 people can afford or are willing to spend. That is it! Plain and simple.

Have you read anything that I said before? More importantly, have you let any of it sink in? I, too am a power junkie that desires the most out of their flashlight with the cost of battery life and LED life, yet I think what you are asking is out of the question. I noticed many people here think that my high power dreams are crazy and unrealistic. I am usually open to extreme designs that push the limits of technology (meaning as many LEDs fit in a cluster as possible, or the amount of extra current over the specs maximum being delivered to the emitter). Lots of this is dangerous and can be costly, but it is not entirely unrealistic. Your ideas are too far out there for me. They do not seem realistic. In all honestly, am willing to accept your money to make a tri-Rebel Fenix mod. It will not be easy, and it will not be cheap, but it is mostly doable.

I am usually pretty nice and patient, but it is difficult to stay so when someone answers like how you did. Again, do some reading. Let it sift through. Understand where I am coming from. Most importantly, do not post until you can find your answer in the previous post, or even by searching the CPF. I mean this on specific components of a flashlight (emitters, batteries, reflector, electronics, and body). Without this knowledge, you can not complain about manufacturers, or criticize modders for their work. So please be more careful. Finally, be more careful when quoting someone. I really dislike it when someone puts words in my mouth! Please fix your previous post by correcting that odd quote by changing the name, or by removing it. Comprende? Thanks.

-Tony


----------



## Long John (Oct 7, 2007)

Woww Tony, respect for your enthusiasm in explaining basic knowledge :bow:...:bow:...:bow:...

You invested a lot of energy and time into your substantial posts, hopefully all efforts will not fail.

Very :goodjob:


Very best regards


_____
Tom


----------



## mailint (Oct 7, 2007)

Gryloc said:


> Wow. I do not even know what to say next...
> 
> Firstly, in your previous post, you just posted a quote from no-where and said that I said it! WTH? Who's butt did you pull that out of?
> 
> ...


 
ALT! before you kill me I post this message for saying that I edited my message to remove the quotes I put for error: those words were only my answer to the precedent quoted text! :duh2: sorry....

Now let me read the rest of your message.... wait....


----------



## mailint (Oct 7, 2007)

Gryloc said:


> I am not sure how I am contradicting Long John?


 
With your concluding words "Am I clear enough? You have to go with a slightly larger flashlight to get better performance.", near the end of your message.

Long John wrote:
"In the size of the Fenix-lights (1xCR123, 1xAA and 2xAA) yes, I own these models: P1D-CE, modded L1P and modded L2D I can tell you:
These are not the brightest 
I own other lights in the same size with 1 ermitter(indeed Semi/Custom-lights), which are brighter."

Anyway thanks for the following clarification:



Gryloc said:


> When I said that you can have a light the size of a Fenix that is brighter than a stock Fenix, I mean that you can do so with a Flu-pic (which can sometimes deliver more current to the LED) to increase brightness some. It will probably not impress someone like you. For it to be much brighter, then you have to go with a larger light that include multiple emitters. Did you forget that I said you will need larger batteries for more power, so that will increase size?


 
I know that with larger batteries I can have more power even with the same circuitry but I'm only interested in micro-lights with the best output/size-weight ratio.

May I ask you why manufacturers like Fenix don't buy this FluPIC and sell some flashlights with it? I really don't understand this if it doesn't have known drawbacks. 
I can only understand a delay of some months in implementing new technologies. Is this the case?



Gryloc said:


> Secondly, weight does not always matter. Geesh! Maybe it will if you are wearing baggy pants without a belt or something. You cannot compare Fenix light with everything else (size and weight). If you want to strap 10 Fenix P1Ds together for weight reduction, feel free to do so. Weight size is not always proportional 1:1 to its size. Oh, and are you sure that the 27g figure includes the battery? A lightweight Li-ion AA cell weighs about 23g. NiMH AA cells are noticeably heavier.


 
27 grams exclude the battery as the 350 grams of the 3-LEDs excluded battery as well.



Gryloc said:


> Fenix isn't really top of the line (that term is not even a good one). Sure they use the best emitters, but that does not mean much. I can slap a Q5 on a 3AA holder from RatShack and put a similar reflector and get similar output.


 
Where did you find the measurements that evidence it? I'ld very like to see some comparations where another flashlight, even done by a modder, with the same size/weight and emitter of a P1D CE (P4 or Q5) gets similar total output or beats it. It's the main thing I'm searching.



Gryloc said:


> As for price, most likely, no manufacturer or modder will create a flashlight that is extremely out of the price range range of most buyers. There are some really expensive lights that are over $400, but there is also a set of customers that are willing to buy that light. For a super-high performance flashlight that emits 400 lumens and is the same size and weight as a Fenix that costs $600, there will be only one customer -you. Therefore, it is not profitable to make a light like that. It is simple economics.


 
I dubt it, for two reasons:

1) in Fenix words (http://www.fenixlight.com/company/index.htm) "*Our aim to offer our customers the uncompromising tools
*　　Cost is not a factor when we develop our illumination tools. We concentrate on producing quality tools without cost restraints.
　　Many lesser brands are willing to produce sub-par products and offer them at a lower price, but these products skip on the features that make a great light. They may give up current regulation, circuit efficiency, fit and finish in order to minimize cost. You'll never see this for any product in the Fenix line."

2) there are already mini hand or head mounted HID lights known in the scuba diving market that costs around $600. I believe that this market is a rich one and would those "super-high performance flashlight that emits 400 lumens and is the same size and weight as a Fenix" for $600.



Gryloc said:


> For a modder, it may be somewhat different if you begin a project with them. If you pay them enough, they will make the best light that they can with their resources. It will take time (projects can take many months or a even a year for such an extreme light).


 
The problem with paying a modder is that I currently am seeing no sufficient evidence that a flashlight of the size/weight of the P1D CE can be produced with significantly more output lumen power. Not sufficient to make me willing to risk spending much money on the experiment.



Gryloc said:


> As for brightness, be careful with saying your light produces exactly 150lm when you doubt that the manufacturers claim of 180lm is unrealistic.


 
I never wrote "exactly". I just wrote "expect approx. 150 lumen".
This time it's you to have made me write words that I never wrote 
But don't worry, I'll not kill you :thumbsup:



Gryloc said:


> Have you read anything that I said before? More importantly, have you let any of it sink in? I, too am a power junkie that desires the most out of their flashlight with the cost of battery life and LED life, yet I think what you are asking is out of the question.


 
To be precise, I never asked what you believe I have asked. 
I'm only trying to figure out what's the best in micro-lights. What I ask are evidences (measurements posted here in CPF would be perfect..) that a flashlight in the size-weight of the best Fenix flashlights (https://www.fenix-store.com/index.php?cPath=22_65) has been created by someone.



Gryloc said:


> In all honestly, am willing to accept your money to make a tri-Rebel Fenix mod. It will not be easy, and it will not be cheap, but it is mostly doable.


 
See above. 
How would it look like? can you show me its expected size compared to something familiar? 
how many batteries would you use (I'm interested in the size)? how many lumen do you expect to obtain?

Mailint


----------



## mailint (Oct 8, 2007)

mailint said:


> I dubt it, for two reasons:
> 
> 1) in Fenix words (http://www.fenixlight.com/company/index.htm) "*Our aim to offer our customers the uncompromising tools*
> Cost is not a factor when we develop our illumination tools. We concentrate on producing quality tools without cost restraints.
> ...


 
3) see the SureFire Titan, a pinky-size flashlight powered by a CR2 battery: http://www.surefire.com/maxexp/main/co_disp/displ/prrfnbr/24451/sesent/00
Do you consider that $499 within the "price range range of most buyers"? I don't think so, but they produce it.


----------



## VidPro (Oct 9, 2007)

there are completly different ways that LEDs die, one is snapping out from very high currents , or fusing as was mentioned.
this occurs immediatally and is easily tracked, and known. this is the one you get to see during initial testing  and has nothing to do with how a LED dies over time.

the other way that leds die does not "disconnect" the led from the curcuit, it turns the led into a short, and it takes TIME for that to occur you can see this on serieses of little leds.

then the time a LED operates can be greatly shortened, which it can end up stopping immediataly (right out of the blue dang-it) after HUNDREDS of hours of similar usage at similar temps, 
or they just get terribly weak from dead gates or fried phosphors or something?

you can not determine a MAX amperage for the total lifetime of an led without running it for its lifetime at that current. you can drastically shorten the lifetime, and/or reduce its output drastically from excessive current.

so the max for the cree is probably really the 350ma  to make it its whole entire rated lifetime, 
and 1000ma to make it a reasonable lifetime, especially reasonable time for a flashlight.
anything else will be a shortened lifetime. at 1500-2000 i PREDICT if its anything like the others about 300 hours of life, which can be completly sufficient, depending on shelfqueenism and all 

the solution, drive them to heck and back, but make sure your project has them "socketed" in some way if you are going to do that, so you just toss in a new one. after all you will be replacing it anyways when things change again. dont GLUE things to death, so it cant be removed, With arctic silver epoxy instead of other epoxies , A star type item can be lifted after years.

nothing is more efficient than using more items (multiples), at a lesser or logical spec current, because you wont fry gates, you wont burn up the short lived phosphors , and at lower currents especially in containers with poor heat syncs, it will live much longer. Phosphors are the death of "white" leds, the more total units run slower, the more phosphors you have in total, burning up slower.

Lots of the smaller consumer mass produced lights do not even run at full SPEC currents for the leds. They dont have the heat sinc capacity to run like that, then they Solidify thier system together with horrible glues that makes dissasembly and replacement very difficult.
Many small lights can be modified to run much hotter than how the manufactures set them, other than putting the "wrong" battery in and overdriving the intended assembly. so you can Modify many small lights and get much higer output, at the risk of the thing burning out much faster than they intended originally. i do it all the time, but the "HIGH" full drive is used intermittantally. well because of course i have also burnt out many leds from overdrive and TIME, and from going beyond the original manufactures specs THEN running that for extended periods in actual USE. so i had to tone down a bit, just like i assume the manufactures with WARRENTIES and locked down components do.


----------



## mailint (Oct 9, 2007)

Thanks VidPro for your answer!



VidPro said:


> so the max for the cree is probably really the 350ma  to make it its whole entire rated lifetime,
> and 1000ma to make it a reasonable lifetime, especially reasonable time for a flashlight.
> anything else will be a shortened lifetime. at 1500-2000 i PREDICT if its anything like the others about 300 hours of life, which can be completly sufficient, depending on shelfqueenism and all


 
Let's say that the max current to have 1-2 hours of LED lifetime is what I'm looking for 
I want the most powerful flashlight that I can keep always in my pocket forgetting about it. I don't have to use it continually or professionally. I just want to enhance my 125mW 2xAAA green laser toy with the best of the other world (LEDs).


----------



## VidPro (Oct 9, 2007)

mailint said:


> Thanks VidPro for your answer!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
2-2.3Amps that should give you a nice 2 hours lifetime  used intermittantally so heat is not an issue it would be ok for quite a while.

that is about the max overdrive running direct drive with a huge heat sync i have used. and it only last the short time that the battery is that highly charged.
its also helpfull if you dont use a "star" thing and have much better emitter to heat sync connection. there is a thread in LEDs that shows the basic effects of the poor heat conduction of the star type bases. but then again a star is sooo easy to tear off and replace.

what 2AAA battery set will pump out that kind of total wattage for very long? even boosted, it doesnt seem feasable that with 2xAAA you could do a whole lot of damage to the led, but then again, no 2AAA encasing has any heat removal capability.

if your heat removal is Relative to nothing more than a star sinc , hmmm i could test that, that is much different.

i will pump 2Amps into a open air star cree and see how long it lasts.


----------



## VidPro (Oct 9, 2007)

ok that was easy
Specs 2amp load, current controlled because it went into thermal overload quick. old junk Q-? type cree star decapitated free air , held up with alligator clip.

30 seconds , till magic light smoke comes out
1 minute and the smoke alarm goes off (ok ok open the window)
1m 30seconds the thing is rather dimm
3minutes it brightens up a tiny bit 
temp is about 400*F
7 minutes i test to see what the output is relative to
output is similar at 400ma as the 2amp
11 minutes , output looks like a 100-150ma load
voltage is at about 3.3v , way lower than it would be if it had a heat sinc.
17 minutes, output look like bright 5mm led
20 minutes, output is same at 50ma, fry mark in center of emitter, yellow/brown burn colors show when current is dropped.

End of Test:
(approx) 1hr 30 minutes, ZERO light output, 2 amps still going in, the led is basically now a resister, not a diode, as the 2amps will now flow in either direction. probably a Carbon resister 
resistance in either direction is about .3ohms (just in case sombody needs to know that)

i BELIEVE that heat is a major issue here if you cant get the heat off, then your back to 350ma :-( unless you have some massive head on that little 11mm tube thing, not to mention the heat hitting the poor batteries.


----------



## Gryloc (Oct 9, 2007)

Oh wow! oo: VidPro, thank you for showing how the LED would perform on a bare star at 2A and sacrificing it for the name of science! :bow:

I am amazed that the thing still produced significant amounts of light after being cooked like that, even though it is still drawing 2A. Well, if you would try to test an LED with minimal heatsinking and at high currents, may as well go until it completely dies! I wished that I could afford to do more [intentional] destructive tests on LEDs to really push their limit to see where I can get the most use out of them (a balance between ulta-brightness and life and/or runtime on batteries). I still lack a good power supply that can control current .

Last night, I unfortunately did something similar to a Rebel 0100. I had moved the Rebel emitter to a bigger flashlight for better throw, but I made the mistake of using some aged AA epoxy that went on too thick, and, I think, didn't cure properly. I thought that I was pushing the Rebel 0100 at 2A like I was in the previous smaller light, but do to significantly less resistance in the body and switch of the 2C mag (its new host and now retirement home), I ended up pushing the LED emitter at over 2.3A with my 18650 li-ion cell that had an OCV of 4.02V. So, with this much current, and a lousy thermal bond with the copper heatsink, it turned angry blue scowl in under five seconds of being on. Since then, at lower currents, it has noticeably less brightness (but still gets moderately warm -not normal). So much for my really low Vf, nice tint Rebel 0100. Oh well. I will be getting some new Rebels sometime soon (hopefully). Heatsinking makes a big difference, as well as all the thermal joints!

Anyway, LEDs are pretty durable (especially the latest emitters -since the K2). Mailint, do not forget that the LED lifespan usually means the time in hours until 50% brightness. They usually do not just blow like incandescents do (which those decrease in brightness throughout their lifetime like LEDs do somewhat). Even if you get "500hrs" from a Rebel or XR-E running at 2A, it will still be plenty of time for flashlights. Luxeon Vs had a rated life of 500 hrs after Lumileds corrected things. I still have some that are pretty dang bright still (ignoring their slight inefficiencies). 

Anyway, people really worry about heatsinking in their lights. And many worry that a light doesn't have enough for a high power LED. It is surprising when a small light can handle an emitter at high currents. For example, I had an old MTE Seoul AA light from DX. It was decent, but I got tired with it because it could have done better. I was dreaming of having a really compact 18650 li-ion light, and I noticed that the OD of this MTE light was ~1mm larger than that of the li-ion cell. 

So, I ripped out the old Seoul and the electronics (not literally, of course), and placed the previously mentioned Rebel 0100 emitter in there. It was directly driven by the 18650 cell, but the tail switch was converted to have two modes (one DD no resistor, the other DD with a high valued resistor to give a dim mode). I made a body using really thin aluminum (almost foil-like) for contact between the aluminum head and tail body sections. In the head, I felt that there was some ~okay~ heatsinking. The aluminum heatsink pill screwed into the thin head section. It still worked pretty well once I was sure the emitter had a really thin coat of epoxy on the filed flat heatsink.

Overall, the light had an OD of most AA lights (this one around 19mm), and a length of ~130mm. I think it was the size of an Fenix P3D or so. This light may have pleased you mailint. I didn't feel like mentioning it before, just because it was prototype I made when I was bored (almost nothing special due to the foil-like body ). I especially did not think it was a worthy enough light (for quality) to have a thread made about it. It was mostly for laughs and telling stories like this. Anyway, this light was pretty intense! It made several of my bigger lights (with tight beams) look crappy. This MTE "custom" still used a 17mm reflector, but the beam was pretty wide and artifacty. The beam was as wide as that of a Fenix P2D, but it was a very flat, even beam with little of a hotspot. I didn't use the lousy MTE reflector, but instead, I used an IMS SO17XA reflector (or XB?). It was outputting some serious lumens and it was much brighter than a Fenix P2D I had a chance to try out after modding a week ago. It was very stunning every time it was switched on.

Where was I going? Oh yeah! Running it for 2 minutes held in hand, the temperature didn't get over ~45 degrees C or so. It was a little uncomfortable to hold, but it did not get burning hot, and the LED did not dim any. I was happy with the results and I wished that I could have tried to reproduce those results in a more serious, durable flashlight.

BTW, AAAs are not the way to go. Can you handle a thicker cell with much more capacity and power? You can use li-ion AA(s), RCR123s cell, 16500 cells, 17500 or 17670 cells, or even the still compact 18500 or 18650 cells. My 18650 could deliver the power for pretty long periods of time.

I just though that I should share that. Mailint, I have been thinking about this matter for the past couple days, and I do feel like discussing this further (coming up with some type of bright mini light), but I do not think that it matches the original intent of this thread. Could you start another so we can continue? Alright, well this is getting interesting. Thanks again, VidPro. Please continue to chime in. It is very helpful!

-Tony


----------



## VidPro (Oct 9, 2007)

*Oh wow! oo: VidPro, thank you for showing how the LED would perform on a bare star at 2A and sacrificing it for the name of science!*

i was interested myself in that. need to blow up some 10400 li-ions too, the tiny AAA li-ion, because they are SOO small, they cant be protected, so i am interested in how big of a disaster they can make with so little materials in them.

i have a cree Ministar , you know the little 12-15mm star thing, running free air for a cute mod to a cell phone type charger, it runs at about 130-160ma and has no problem coping with that at all.

and i have 3-4 20mm X 100mm lights that i run at full 3+ watts, very much brighter looking than the manufactured stuff, the bodies get very hot, but i use LEVELS or use them INTERMITTANT, and so its not on high for often, and i wont run it free-wheeling, except for the occasional accidental pocket turn on, with repsective leg Grafting from 3rd degree burns :laughing:.
none of them have any issues, but i am very carefull with its use, if i "sold" it to sombody that didnt know the ramifications i bet they would ruin it.


----------



## mailint (Oct 9, 2007)

VidPro and Gryloc I don't know how to thank you for all these incredible amount of informations you wrote!
VidPro with the chronicle of the LED burning test you became my myth! 

I followed the suggestion of Gryloc and opened a new thread.
I entitled it "*My extreme micro flashlight dream project*": https://www.candlepowerforums.com/posts/2179895

I hope that this scientific research can be continued there


----------



## VidPro (Oct 9, 2007)

gosh i hope i didnt ruin the thread.
i think i know the answer, get a HYPErion stuff in a BS RCR123cell.

its already a cree P-4 or something, the thing is Tiny as can be, the reflector is short, the body is short (because of twisty) it overdrives terribly with a Li-ion (RCR)
Other than it being SLIGHTLY fatter than a AA based light, (i didnt like fatter) its the smallest that actually has battery that can run at 4+Watts, when it falls out of regulation and goes into direct drive, Because the voltage of the Li-ion being to high for the curcuit (out of spec from improper battery).

so far the curcuit has survived, but the light gets to hot to run on high always, it has a UI so you can tone it down.

if you can get out of the AAA thing, that is the smallest thing i can find that will do a FULL overdrive and still survive the event both battery led and respectable runtime.


that just leaves trying to dissasemble the little sucker, using a heat gun, strap wrench with added rubber band for grip, and something??? to grab the tiny ring without destroying the paint job, to remove the Mini-star and replace with the Q-5.
but
that mod i deem to be a waste of time and waste a good light. for the other 25lumens that might exist between bins, not to mention any color rendition issues that might exist with the "increase" in lumens (can you say more BLUE junk .

but you want to go ALL the way, so that light would require a difficult dissasembly , because grip points are small, and they GLUE this stuff together.
total costs wouldnt be diddly, because you are overdriving a curcuit due to battery, that we can hope will survive for a long time. and the light is cheap, so cheap you couldnt make one for that price, and you could screw up one trying to alter it and loose little.

Its not HYPE its Hyperion  and YES i am a BIASED person about it, because i OWN one, and overdrove it, and it actually survived a harsh overdrive, see the thread on it.

it also has very special body Knurling stuff, its not a diamond pattern, its actually Raised (like) which makes it have a very high volume of exposed to air body surface, hard to explain, but if you were going to make invisable heat sink fins, Desguised as a low rise grip on the body, this is how you would do it. sort of microfinned texture, very efficient looking for heat removal.

then there is the draco and wee, and other very high $$$ things, that are small but not driven insanly. lots of those PRO modders will let you Ruin your led if you so demand, they can often set the power of them way to high, as long as you know what your getting. never discount the PRO modders and Custom makers here on this forum for making a light that will blow up in your face if you insist


----------

