# Ebay Boring bar - Good deal or waste of money?



## Tekno_Cowboy

Noticed an indexable 3/8" boring bar for about $20 on ebay today, wondering if it's worth the money, or if I'd be alot better off just saving up for something else.

Here's the link, let me know what you think...


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## precisionworks

That's not a bad price on the bar, and the inserts aren't expensive either.

Also, if you need a larger diameter bar, look at the ones from Mesa Tool. Imported, but decent quality, fast shipping, etc. I bought three of their 3/4" diameter bars for my 3" boring head.

http://shop.ebay.com/merchant/mesa-tool


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## Tekno_Cowboy

Thanks, I'll probably pick one up sometime soon. 

Do you have any recommendations for an affordable indexable internal threading tool?


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## Anglepoise

Tekno_Cowboy said:


> Noticed an indexable 3/8" boring bar for about $20 on ebay today, wondering if it's worth the money, or if I'd be alot better off just saving up for something else.







Lots of differing opinions, but I would strongly suggest you pass.

Quality American,Japanese or European ( Sandvik) tooling is really worth it.

And they don't have to be new, but give some thought as to what you are going to be using your lathe to build.

If its flashlight related, then I would recommend a triangular, positive insert so you have 3 tips as opposed to 2.
Triangle shape works well for boring and turning so the same insert can be used in both tool holders. Under no circumstances get negative inserts. Positive only for light machines, to cut down on lack of power, vibrations and the fact that you might ( flashlights) be dealing with thin walls.

Also top rake insert geometry is so important. For aluminum, Sandvik recomend 20° at the tip and 25° further down. They call this geometry AL.

Also for aluminum, get a ground super sharp finish by specifying 'H10'
that is uncoated carbide that is perfect for Aluminum and as it just happens is also very good for Ti and SS ( small finishing cuts in Ti and SS only, due to AL geometry. Expect to pay retail $10 per insert and $100 for a holder, boring or turning. If your toolpost can handle 1/2" square shank, get this. Prices on ebay will be less.


So TCGX 2(1.5)1-AL H10 would be my sugestion as a superb all around insert that will be worth every penny. 

NOTE:

The above sugestion is bases on the presumption that your depth of cut
will be low. Then I think this one insert, with its 7° positive front rake will work for boring as well as turning. If you were to take large cuts when boring , 11° would be prefered so the second letter would be 'P'

EXAMPLE TP** *****-**

Hope I have not confused you too much........


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## Tekno_Cowboy

While I understand that quality tooling is much better, I have a very limited budget at the moment. I just noticed that LMS carries these bars for about the same price, when you figure in shipping.

I guess I'll have to think about it for now, and concentrate on improving my skills first.


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## jhanko

I don't mean to be cruel, but that boring bar is junk. Poor quality steel that will flex & sing. There are many tools that you can get away with lower quality, but a boring bar isn't one of them. For instance, a cheapo turning or facing tool can do a great job, as there very little overhang, and the steel quality will play little or no role. Especially on a mini-lathe. A boring bar on the other hand has to deal with large overhangs, and to make matters worse, you can't see what the cutters doing. Quality steel will really show it's worth while boring. The first thing you will probably learn on the lathe is what not to do. The second will be how to make due with the tools you have. The third will be figuring out which tools just won't cut it and end up in the trash, replaced by the tool you should have bought in the first place...

Jeff


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## Tekno_Cowboy

Thinking back, I can remember more than a couple times that that has been true for me. 

Looks like there's no getting around getting the right tool sometimes...


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## precisionworks

> that boring bar is junk. Poor quality steel that will flex & sing


If you figure that any steel shank bar has a maximum extension of 5D (five diameters), a bar .375" diameter will be extended no more than 1.875" ... call it 2" maximum extension to keep things simple. It's nearly impossible to find a bad bar in smaller sizes, as long as the insert pocket is a good fit for the insert. If you get a warm, fuzzy feeling because your bar is marked Valenite, Iscar, or Sandvik, that's good - because they perform no better in the smaller diameters than the less expensive bars (1/2" and under).

At 3/4" diameter, where extensions can reach nearly 4", better bars have the edge. That said, the bars from Mesa Tool have produced accurate holes when used in my boring head. 

If you need to bore deeper than 5D, solid carbide shanks allow great extension. Up to 10D is possible if the setup is dead nuts rigid & all the parameters are correct.



> for aluminum, get a ground super sharp finish


+1

If you haven't started using aluminum specific inserts for turning, facing & boring, you don't know what you're missing. My most used tooling holds a CNMG-432, which is a negative rake insert. The manufacturers take that shape and mold a high positive rake face with sharp (no land) edge. LatheInserts.com sells them for $54 per ten pack, which is dirt cheap. http://www.latheinserts.com/main.sc


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## precisionworks

10" South Bend, 1.750" boring bar (Pafana brand). Nice for larger ID jobs


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## jhanko

precisionworks said:


> If you figure that any steel shank bar has a maximum extension of 5D (five diameters), a bar .375" diameter will be extended no more than 1.875" ... call it 2" maximum extension to keep things simple. It's nearly impossible to find a bad bar in smaller sizes, as long as the insert pocket is a good fit for the insert. If you get a warm, fuzzy feeling because your bar is marked Valenite, Iscar, or Sandvik, that's good - because they perform no better in the smaller diameters than the less expensive bars (1/2" and under).



I've had both. I started out with a chinese 3/8" bar and got frustrated with it fast. I later got a great deal on Ebay for a 3/8" Sandvik bar. There was a big difference between the two. I didn't get a warm, fuzzy feeling with the Sandvik, but I loved the fact that I had to do less finishing passes (due to less flex).

Jeff


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## wquiles

I have had "normal" boring bars, and then thanks to *modamag* got to try solid carbide bars (still very affordable on Ebay) - man, what a difference. Today, almost all boring that I do is with the solid carbide bars 

I would pass at this one, and look for solid carbide bars on Ebay instead. I just sold two of these to *darkzero* - I think they were around $50 each on Ebay, of course I sold them even cheaper than that as mine had some minimal wear marks 

Will


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## jhanko

wquiles said:


> I have had "normal" boring bars, and then thanks to *modamag* got to try solid carbide bars (still very affordable on Ebay) - man, what a difference.



+1. Carbide bars are an excellent investment. They may be costly, but are worth every penny. I just got a 1/2" carbide bar, and I'll be buying other sizes when great deals come along...


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## old4570

Tin coated inserts ????

Or titanium nitride coated inserts ... ??


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## precisionworks

> Tin coated inserts ????
> 
> Or titanium nitride coated inserts ... ??



Yes & no 

One of the earliest tool coatings is TiN (Titanium Nitride), which is a gold colored, ceramic coating. It was first applied to cemented carbide milling inserts in 1985. It is so inexpensive & so common that even HF uses it on their drills (although that may be just gold spray paint). You mostly see TiN on lower cost tooling & inserts. Hardness is 81 Rc, and CF (coefficient of friction) is .40, with a max temp of 1000 deg F.

A more popular coating today is TiAlN (Titanium Aluminum Nitride). The color is purple-black, and it's used in tougher materials that generate higher heat at the cutting edge. Max temp 1350 deg F.

AlTiN (Aluminum Titanium Nitride) is good up to 1450 deg F, and is normally run dry. AlTiN coated endmills should be run fast enough to generate sufficient heat to form a hard aluminum oxide layer at the cutting edge.

It all depends on your machine & the material being worked.


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## darkzero

wquiles said:


> I have had "normal" boring bars, and then thanks to *modamag* got to try solid carbide bars (still very affordable on Ebay) - man, what a difference. Today, almost all boring that I do is with the solid carbide bars
> 
> I would pass at this one, and look for solid carbide bars on Ebay instead. I just sold two of these to *darkzero* - I think they were around $50 each on Ebay, of course I sold them even cheaper than that as mine had some minimal wear marks
> 
> Will


 
Yup, big thanks to wquiles again! At $50 for both solid carbide bars plus extra inserts I am truely greatful! They've been working great! :thumbsup:

I purchased another 1/4" solid carbide bar from ebay for $50 shipped. Even uses the same size insert as my other two larger ones. The larger sizes cost a tad bit more but are still a great price for what I've seen them for online. I'm set for boring bars for a while I hope.


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## Tekno_Cowboy

Those the toolholders for the Lathemaster QCTP?


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## darkzero

Tekno_Cowboy said:


> Those the toolholders for the Lathemaster QCTP?


 
Yes, those are T250-102 with the V groove for holding round shanks. Wquiles has more info posted here.


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## gadget_lover

I (finally) got around to picking up some smaller solid carbide boring bars just like Darkzero. I was not in a hurry, since I have 4 sets of boring bars with shanks from 3/8 to 3/4 inch in both HSS and brazed carbide as well as a 7/8 inch steel with inserts. What I lacked was a tool to do those long narrow bores with some degree of accuracy.

The bars I just bought are both 6 inch long. They are 5/16 and 3/8 diameter and use cnmg inserts. I have to look up the exact insert sizes.

Just for fun, I turned a 1 inch long, .007 thick collar from a piece of 6061. It came out nice. I was quite pleased with the finish, though the photos did not look as good as it looks to the naked eye.

I paid a few extra bucks to get the longer bars , even though you should not extend carbide beyond 10 times (???) the diameter of the bar. So a 6 inch 3/8 bar with a 2.5 inch long holder still leaves an inch or two out the back.  

Here's the question:
Is there a down side to doing something with that other end? I have diamond wheels available. How about grinding it for another insert? Or making it a grooving tool by grinding all but a small nub??? Or some other clever use?

It looks like the boring bars have steel heads brazed to the carbide. Is this normal?

And now the second question; The boring bars are held in 6061-t6 QCTP holders attached to an aluminum tool post that is on a 7x12 lathe. Is there any benefit to making steel holders? I suspect the answer is no.

Daniel


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## darkzero

Anyone want my old 1/2" solid carbide boring bar? I got it from Will. It was ground just a bit (reason unknown). I smoothened it out & dyed it black again. Absolutely nothing wrong with it, works perfectly fine. Pictured above in post #15 on top. I'd like SOLD $17 shipped for it. I'll include a couple of new 21.51 CCMT inserts as well.


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## PEU

if you give me one day to check with my sister in law who is vacationing in Orlando right now, Ill take it 


Pablo


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## gadget_lover

And if Pablo does not take it, I will gladly take it off your hands.. It would finish off my "small set " for the lathe.

Dan


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## darkzero

No problem Pablo. I can ship to Argentina too. Basically I just want $15 + shipping (& PP CC fees if applicable) so add whatever the difference is if going directly to you.

Daniel, you have back up.


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## precisionworks

> the boring bars have steel heads brazed to the carbide. Is this normal?



Most every carbide bar that uses inserts has a steel head. The reason has to do with attaching the insert to the bar. Some inserts are retained through a central screw hole, others use a screw with top clamp, some use only a clamp, etc. Every holding method has two things in common - a threaded hole and a seat of some type. Machining a steel head is at least a hundred times easier than trying to machine carbide - which yields only to diamond tooling.


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## PEU

Please send the money request to pablou at gmail or PM me your paypal address  Sorry Daniel 


Pablo


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## darkzero

PEU said:


> Please send the money request to pablou at gmail or PM me your paypal address  Sorry Daniel
> 
> 
> Pablo


 
PM sent.


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## gadget_lover

PEU said:


> Please send the money request to pablou at gmail or PM me your paypal address  Sorry Daniel
> 
> 
> Pablo



I really don't mind coming in second to most anyone in this forum.  All are nice folks.


Daniel


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## KowShak

The best advice I can give on tooling is to buy what you can afford and will get value for money out of. If you buy the cheap boring bar and use it enough to realise that its not up to certain tasks, by all means buy a more expensive boring bar, even a carbide bar at that point. Buying expensive tooling when you have no need for it is just a waste, if you're spending a lot of money on it make sure you're getting your moneys worth.

On one job I was doing,my cheapest boring bar worked better than my more expensive bars because it had an insert better suited to the job than the more expensive bars, strictly speaking it was not the cheap tool outperforming the more expensive tool it was the inserts.


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## darkzero

KowShak said:


> The best advice I can give on tooling is to buy what you can afford and will get value for money out of. If you buy the cheap boring bar and use it enough to realise that its not up to certain tasks, by all means buy a more expensive boring bar, even a carbide bar at that point. Buying expensive tooling when you have no need for it is just a waste, if you're spending a lot of money on it make sure you're getting your moneys worth.
> 
> On one job I was doing,my cheapest boring bar worked better than my more expensive bars because it had an insert better suited to the job than the more expensive bars, strictly speaking it was not the cheap tool outperforming the more expensive tool it was the inserts.


 
Good advice & good point! While cost of tooling is important to me quality & performance of the tooling is as well. 

The 1/2" bar worked great for me until I ran into something where I needed a tad bit longer length. My longer 3/8" bar probably would have done the job but this was an excuse to upgrade. Since I was looking to get another one I figure I pass on the savings here to a CPFr. I originally got the 3/8" & 1/2" boring bars from Will for $50. They cost $50 ea new on ebay. 

My old 1/2" bar is 5-1/4" OAL. Just as I was about to order a 5-3/4" one (not much longer but just long enough to get the job done comfortably) a 6-1/2" one popped out for the same price!  Many would think a 1/4" IC insert is a bit small for a 1/2" bar. Maybe so but in my case I don't need it a larger insert. I choose to stick with 21.51 CCMT since that's the same size insert my other two bars use. I got a deal on 30 Valenite CCGT inserts for $45. Great deal on the inserts & saving money not having to buy another size/type insert. I'm probably set at least until 2011 unless I decide to change my setup. :twothumbs


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## wquiles

Since this thread is about good deals on Boring Bars on Ebay, I figure I would post about this "little" bar for sale:
http://cgi.ebay.com/BIGGEST-CARIDE-BAR-ON-ebay-SOLID-CARBIDE_W0QQitemZ330365990031QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item4ceb58f48f


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## precisionworks

The funny thing about that bar is the small diameter. I have a 1.750" bar that's used for just one job on my 10" South Bend - the bar & holder weigh about 20#

A bar like the one on eBay, 43.5" long, needs to be about 4" diameter. At 1.839" diameter, max extension is just 18.39".


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## wquiles

precisionworks said:


> The funny thing about that bar is the small diameter. I have a 1.750" bar that's used for just one job on my 10" South Bend - the bar & holder weigh about 20#
> 
> A bar like the one on eBay, 43.5" long, needs to be about 4" diameter. At 1.839" diameter, max extension is just 18.39".



Funny indeed. Why such a long bar then, when it is going to flex like crazy?


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## gadget_lover

There is 'flex like crazy' and there is just flex. Sometimes a slight chatter is acceptable. Judging from the finish on some things I buy, chatter is very acceptable.

I imagine that it would come in handy when you have to reach 36 inches into a hole to bore a pocket or something.

Daniel


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## PEU

got the boring bar today (yes Im used to looong waits) My first carbide boring bar, waaay heavier than I imagined, thats a good thing 

Thanks Will 


Pablo


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## wquiles

PEU said:


> ...waaay heavier than I imagined...


Same here. I could not believe how heavy they are!

I recently got a 7/8" solid carbide boring bar - talk about HEAVY


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## darkzero

PEU said:


> got the boring bar today (yes Im used to looong waits) My first carbide boring bar, waaay heavier than I imagined, thats a good thing
> 
> Thanks Will
> 
> 
> Pablo


 
No problem Pablo. Gad you finally got it (next time, if there is, I can save you the troubles & ship directly to you). I'm happy to have passed it on here on CPF as Will has passed it on to me. :wave:
Cheers,

-Will-


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## precisionworks

Just a little OT, but there is free shipping on orders over $25 from MSC Industrial. Use code *MR1009FF*

This code only works one time per customer, and is valid until 11/14/2009

Good pricing on ground & polished W-1 drill rod in 36" length, especially when the free shipping is figured in.

3/4" $17.32 PR06010482
1/2" $ 8.67 PR06010326
1/4" $2.92 PR06010169
1/8" $1.63 PR06010086


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## bluwolf

precisionworks said:


> Just a little OT, but there is free shipping on orders over $25 from MSC Industrial. Use code *MR1009FF*
> 
> This code only works one time per customer, and is valid until 11/14/2009
> 
> Good pricing on ground & polished W-1 drill rod in 36" length, especially when the free shipping is figured in.
> 
> 3/4" $17.32 PR06010482
> 1/2" $ 8.67 PR06010326
> 1/4" $2.92 PR06010169
> 1/8" $1.63 PR06010086


 
I know it has other uses but isn't that something you would also use a 6" or 12" length of to check the runout on a chuck or something like that?

Mike


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## precisionworks

> check the runout on a chuck


Even though drill rod is TGP (turned, ground, polished) it is still a long way from perfect. Concentricity is only guaranteed to .0005", which is far below Thomson linear shafting.

Also, look at the top of this section (*Materials/Mechanical/Machining Specific Deals*) for a link to some low priced indexable tooling :thumbsup:


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## wquiles

precisionworks said:


> Even though drill rod is TGP (turned, ground, polished) it is still a long way from perfect. Concentricity is only guaranteed to .0005", which is far below Thomson linear shafting.
> 
> Also, look at the top of this section (*Materials/Mechanical/Machining Specific Deals*) for a link to some low priced indexable tooling :thumbsup:



+1

Not only the concentricity is not enough on drill rod, but the surface finish is not good enough either. I tried using drill rod before, but thanks to Brian (Mirage_Man) now I use a 6" piece of 1" Thompson linear shaft. Not only is the "correct" part/item for this particular use, but it is also cheap ($5.95) - ENCO part # 319-4181:
http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INSRIT?PARTPG=INSRAR2&PMAKA=319-4181&PMPXNO=19507540


I marked one side as "chuck" so that I always chuck that end of the rod, to keep the end that touches the 0.0005" indicator free of scratches, plus when not in use it is wrapped in the OEM outer plastic net/sheeting 

Will


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## bluwolf

precisionworks said:


> Even though drill rod is TGP (turned, ground, polished) it is still a long way from perfect. Concentricity is only guaranteed to .0005", which is far below Thomson linear shafting.
> 
> Also, look at the top of this section (*Materials/Mechanical/Machining Specific Deals*) for a link to some low priced indexable tooling :thumbsup:


 


wquiles said:


> +1
> 
> Not only the concentricity is not enough on drill rod, but the surface finish is not good enough either. I tried using drill rod before, but thanks to Brian (Mirage_Man) now I use a 6" piece of 1" Thompson linear shaft. Not only is the "correct" part/item for this particular use, but it is also cheap ($5.95) - ENCO part # 319-4181:
> http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INSRIT?PARTPG=INSRAR2&PMAKA=319-4181&PMPXNO=19507540
> 
> 
> I marked one side as "chuck" so that I always chuck that end of the rod, to keep the end that touches the 0.0005" indicator free of scratches, plus when not in use it is wrapped in the OEM outer plastic net/sheeting
> 
> Will


 
Man!! I love this place! You guys are the best. One day I may actually have a clue what I'm doing...Okay, maybe not...but it'll be a lot more fun trying.

Barry, that's a nice face mill. But I'm still looking for one like in the 2" range with an R8 arbor that takes CNMG inserts so I can use up the other edges from the inserts I use on the lathe...that I still don't have yet. I am a looong way from needing anything but the basics.

Mike


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## precisionworks

> I'm still looking for one like in the 2" range with an R8 arbor


There's one on eBay with a 3/4" straight shank, so you can run it in a 3/4" R-8 collet. I don't think you'll find anything better for $59 

http://cgi.ebay.com/CNMG-2-0-FACE-M...QQptZBI_Tool_Work_Holding?hash=item1e58b31a31


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## precisionworks

> that's a nice face mill.


I think the performance will be awesome with the high shear design. As I understand it, these face mills require less hp per cubic inch of metal removed. The only down side I can see is that there are no cheapo inserts in SEHW/SEHT/SEHX. The best price I've found is about $75 per 10 on eBay. Nice people to work with and a live person (the owner) answers the phone 

http://stores.shop.ebay.com/carbide-diamond-tooling__W0QQ_armrsZ1


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## wquiles

precisionworks said:


> ... with a 3/4" straight shank, so you can run it in a 3/4" R-8 collet...



Like this one:
http://cgi.ebay.com/3-4-END-MILL-HOLDER-R8-ADAPTOR-TOOL-MILLING-BRIDGEPORT_W0QQitemZ330318412639QQcmdZViewItemQQptZBI_Tool_Work_Holding?hash=item4ce882fb5f


or this one:
http://cgi.ebay.com/R8-COLLET-FOR-BRIDGEPORT-TYPE-MACHINES-SIZE-3-4-30_W0QQitemZ330370021933QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item4ceb967a2d


You know Barry, come to thing about it, he should just give us his wallet now and get it over with ... he will get "everything" he needs :devil:

  

Will


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## precisionworks

End mill holders, like the one in your first link, don't work too well as they push the shank off to one side - but the setscrew bears on the flats of a Weldon shank to keep the end mill from rotating, so it's a tradeoff. The R-8 collet in the second link is a better way to hold an end mill (or face mill shank) because of better concentricity. 



> give us his wallet now and get it over with ... he will get "everything"


On some machine set ups, you end up using everything you have ... imagine the Kurt vise all the way open holding a 7.5" wide slotted angle plate, to which are bolted a pair of 1-2-3 blocks to which the work is held by a step clamp - that's what I needed last night for a rush job, and there was no other way but that to fixture the part (which looked like a miniature auger). It will all get used in time


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## gadget_lover

Barry's a lot more knowledgeable than I, but I could have sworn that I read that the end mill holders are MORE concentric than an R8 collet, since the collet has multiple contact surfaces that must be perfect. 

The end mill holder, on the other hand has a fixed side that the mill is pressed against. 

Or so I read. I never tried putting a precision rod in both and measuring them. I don't have a precision rod to do that with. 

Besides, I buy cheap tooling and my measurements don't count. 

Daniel


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## bluwolf

precisionworks said:


> There's one on eBay with a 3/4" straight shank, so you can run it in a 3/4" R-8 collet. I don't think you'll find anything better for $59
> 
> http://cgi.ebay.com/CNMG-2-0-FACE-M...QQptZBI_Tool_Work_Holding?hash=item1e58b31a31


 
Thanks Barry, I agree. The last time you mentioned those they were on a 1" shank. I had been looking for something that would fit in the collets I already have or with an R8 already.



wquiles said:


> Like this one:
> http://cgi.ebay.com/3-4-END-MILL-HO...QQptZBI_Tool_Work_Holding?hash=item4ce882fb5f
> 
> 
> or this one:
> http://cgi.ebay.com/R8-COLLET-FOR-B...emQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item4ceb967a2d
> 
> 
> You know Barry, come to thing about it, he should just give us his wallet now and get it over with ... he will get "everything" he needs :devil:
> 
> 
> 
> Will


 
Will, I already have both the end mill holder and collet in 3/4". My mill that's almost identical to yours and Daniel's came with a bunch of tooling. All the endmills that came with it are the cheap stuff. But it works okay for now.

As for the wallet, I'd give it to you but it's pretty much empty because of you anyway



gadget_lover said:


> Barry's a lot more knowledgeable than I, but I could have sworn that I read that the end mill holders are MORE concentric than an R8 collet, since the collet has multiple contact surfaces that must be perfect.
> 
> The end mill holder, on the other hand has a fixed side that the mill is pressed against.
> 
> Or so I read. I never tried putting a precision rod in both and measuring them. I don't have a precision rod to do that with.
> 
> Besides, I buy cheap tooling and my measurements don't count.
> 
> Daniel


 
Thanks Daniel, I thought we were on the same side as far as going easy on the tooling budget. But now you're making me think I want to buy another one of those linear shafts to go in the mill. The other one these guys said to buy was 1" diameter. I'll need a smaller diameter to fit the collets and holders I have.

Then again, those linear shafts are the cheapest things those guys have suggested so far....

Mike


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## precisionworks

A really well made end mill holder has the potential to run the tool very well - IF the OD of the tool is just the slightest bit smaller than the bore of the holder, something like a couple of tenths. But they are always made larger because of the wide variation in the OD of the many different tools available.

Some R-8 collets are very accurate, others not. If you look at those from Lyndex or Royal, you'll find concentricity of .0005" or better. I don't believe you'll ever see a number that low with an end mill holder, except on rare occasions. 

http://www.royalprod.com/content/files/products/Page_00 82.pdf


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## precisionworks

Update on the face mill ... found an even better buy on the grainger.com website ... same face mill BUT comes with 10 inserts for $97.94. If you figure that the inserts are worth at least $75.00, that makes the face mill almost free 

EDIT - all sold out.http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/items/2LAN2?Pid


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## unterhausen

precisionworks said:


> A really well made end mill holder has the potential to run the tool very well - IF the OD of the tool is just the slightest bit smaller than the bore of the holder, something like a couple of tenths. But they are always made larger because of the wide variation in the OD of the many different tools available.


I think it's generally recognized that the end mill holders have more runout as you say. I lucked into some end mill specific collets. They have an insert to hold the flat. I think they are available in most collet series. Don't know about R8, I have an NMTB30 machine. You can always go to a R8 ER32 collet holder.


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## wquiles

unterhausen said:


> ...You can always go to a R8 ER32 collet holder...


I use an R8 ER40 collet system in my knee mill - works great.


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## precisionworks

The 2" face mill in my prior post didn't last long ... I got one, a friend on another forum got one, and they are all gone. :shakehead

The next size larger (3") is still available in a kit with 10 inserts for $131.38. Four in stock in Chicago & they won't last long.

http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/items/2LAN2?Pid


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## precisionworks

Grainger should shut down their website, except it is like a stimulus plan for their sales :nana:

Don't ask how I know, but there are two Indexable End Mill Kits, 1" diameter, including 10 inserts, for *$73.37*. Figure that the inserts run close to $7 each and that's a killer deal. Grainger part # 2LAL4

Here's the identical kit from Drillspot, who has a better description of the Grainger Kit:

http://www.drillspot.com/products/467423/Rtw_3496377_End_Mill_Kit

You do need a 1" ER40 collet to run this end mill, as it has 1" shank diameter. Inserts are the popular & cheap APKT/APPT.


----------



## wquiles

That is a GREAT deal indeed. If it were not for that I already have a nice 1" end mill (although mine uses 2 inserts, instead of 4), I would have been all over this one already!


----------



## precisionworks

Although both the Grainger drawing & the Drillspot drawing show 4 inserts, the 1" end mill holds 2:

http://www.drillspot.com/products/464670/Rtw_RE00100W100AP263_End_Milling_Body

Still, it will be a nice addition when milling hard or tough materials, where it isn't worth risking a 1" solid carbide end mill. So much cheaper to index a pair of inserts


----------



## saltytri

precisionworks said:


> That's not a bad price on the bar, and the inserts aren't expensive either.
> 
> Also, if you need a larger diameter bar, look at the ones from Mesa Tool. Imported, but decent quality, fast shipping, etc. I bought three of their 3/4" diameter bars for my 3" boring head.
> 
> http://shop.ebay.com/merchant/mesa-tool



"Fast Shipping"? Barry, you don't know how right you are! It turns out that Mesa Tool is a few miles from me. Last night, I placed a web order for some inserts for the very nice threading/grooving bar I bought a couple weeks ago and, of course, I entered my mailing address in the checkout. So, today they were hand delivered to my door by Jim, the proprietor. Now, that's service. The things I've received (the toolholder and several inserts in different configurations) are very nice and certainly deserve a second look.

David


----------



## precisionworks

> today they were hand delivered to my door by Jim, the proprietor.


Ask him if he will offer the same service east of the Mississippi

Nice tooling. The boring bars are inexpensive enough that you can buy a few and shorten some of them (with a cut off wheel) to make a stubby bar. Glad to hear that you had a good experience, David.


----------



## wquiles

precisionworks said:


> That's not a bad price on the bar, and the inserts aren't expensive either.
> 
> Also, if you need a larger diameter bar, look at the ones from Mesa Tool. Imported, but decent quality, fast shipping, etc. I bought three of their 3/4" diameter bars for my 3" boring head.
> 
> http://shop.ebay.com/merchant/mesa-tool



I have always been very intrigued about their "unconventional" threading tool:
5/8" Threading Tool ID/OD ...


----------



## saltytri

It's certainly versatile. I haven't yet used it for threading but the full-radius grooving insert sure makes nice decoration for a light body:


----------



## wquiles

saltytri said:


> It's certainly versatile. I haven't yet used it for threading but the full-radius grooving insert sure makes nice decoration for a light body:



Nice photo!

Is that a Bison chuck? Tell us more about your setup


----------



## precisionworks

David,

Another way to add tailstock support is to turn an aluminum "end cap" that just fits inside the tube & has a lip that bears against the end of the tube. When making one, the first op is to center drill the end of the solid rod so there is a place for a live center to bear.

Often, I use only a thick aluminum disc, faced on both sides, into which a center has been drilled. There must be half a dozen in the drawer for various size tubes. With the tailstock pushing against the disc, pressure alone will hold it in place.


----------



## saltytri

wquiles said:


> Nice photo!
> 
> Is that a Bison chuck? Tell us more about your setup



OK. Here's the bench. Yes, it's a 6" Bison and that's your fault, Will, because you said it's the one to get. :laughing: I'll buy anything that the gurus on this forum recommend - after all, I'm a beginner and don't claim to know much. 

Seriously though, I'm grateful for all the good advice and info that is offered here.


----------



## saltytri

That's a good idea, Barry. I was stumbling in that direction last weekend when I made this light:






I made a plug to match the 45 degree slope on the inside of the bezel:






This let me mount the part in an indexing fixture that has a dead center smaller than the aperture in the bezel:






Now that I think about it, I didn't need to put the 45 degree face on the plug. It positioned and held the part just fine but it would have been better to just turn a cylinder to slip fit through the aperture with a shoulder to hold it as you suggest. So, now I know! :thumbsup:


----------



## wquiles

saltytri said:


> OK. Here's the bench. Yes, it's a 6" Bison and that's your fault, Will, because you said it's the one to get. :laughing: I'll buy anything that the gurus on this forum recommend - after all, I'm a beginner and don't claim to know much.
> 
> Seriously though, I'm grateful for all the good advice and info that is offered here.



Man, that is absolutely beautiful - nice compact setup you have in there :twothumbs


----------



## wquiles

saltytri said:


> ... I was stumbling in that direction last weekend when I made this light:



Now, come on, we need "more" information on that little beauty. Or like Will would say, we need more photos!!! :devil:

Is that a powder coating finish on the light?


----------



## darkzero

wquiles said:


> Now, come on, we need "more" information on that little beauty. Or like Will would say, we need more photos!!! :devil:
> 
> Is that a powder coating finish on the light?


 
An Unmatched Set of AA Triplets 





saltytri said:


> Yes, it's a 6" Bison and that's your fault, Will, because you said it's the one to get. :laughing: I'll buy anything that the gurus on this forum recommend - after all, I'm a beginner and don't claim to know much.


 
I think there has become quite the common saying in this sub forum & is my motto now.... "Blame Will" or "Blame Barry"! That has become my reasoning.  :nana: :wave:





saltytri said:


> after all, I'm a beginner and don't claim to know much.


 

Don't look like a beginner to me! Awesome setup up! Is that a DTM QCTP I see?


----------



## precisionworks

> It positioned and held the part just fine


And that is all that matters. There are dozens of different ways to do any one op, but the one that's the easiest (while still maintaining safety) is the first choice. Awesome light :thumbsup:


----------



## saltytri

darkzero said:


> Don't look like a beginner to me! Awesome setup up! Is that a DTM QCTP I see?



Well, you're right, I'm not a beginner. Those were my 2nd 3rd and 4th flashlights. :laughing:

Sharp eyes! Yes, it's a DTM AXA. I used a piece of 12L14 to replace the hex head tightener sleeve (or whatever the correct name is) with a lever and ball so I don't have to grope around for a wrench all the time - this is a big improvement in terms of convenience.


----------



## saltytri

precisionworks said:


> And that is all that matters. There are dozens of different ways to do any one op, but the one that's the easiest (while still maintaining safety) is the first choice. Awesome light :thumbsup:



Yes, and the point on safety shouldn't be overlooked in this instance. That big bullnose works fine to hold the part but it can get perilously close to the tool and holder when working in close on small parts. Much better to use a custom plug and a smaller live center to leave more space between things that shouldn't touch.


----------



## precisionworks

One other item you'll want to pick up some time is an extended point live center. The CNC users are responsible for this adaptation of a standard live center, as it give a tool extra room to work without hitting the center. Everybody makes one, and Bison probably has one on sale now, but there are other good ones. Look at this one from Royal, as most look similar. 

http://www.royalprod.com/product.cfm?catID=8&ID=5


----------



## saltytri

I've seen that configuration in passing and was curious about it. Thanks for the link to the Royal page, which clears things up.

That one is only $579 for MT2 - maybe I can Google around and find one that isn't cheap import junk! :sick2:


----------



## darkzero

saltytri said:


> I've seen that configuration in passing and was curious about it. Thanks for the link to the Royal page, which clears things up.
> 
> That one is only $579 for MT2 - maybe I can Google around and find one that isn't cheap import junk! :sick2:


 
Although not a Royal, Skoda has one for just under $200. 
http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INSRIT?PMAKA=510-2307&PMPXNO=8916852&PARTPG=INLMK32

The same one costs just under $220 at MSC but if you wait for a 35-40% off day you might be able to get it for well under $150.

Not sure if those go on sale at Enco but I got my Skoda for about $80 with free shipping. 
http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INSRIT?PMAKA=891-4082&PMPXNO=3904133&PARTPG=INLMK32


----------



## precisionworks

Another to look at, made in USA but no brand listed:

http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INSRIT?PMAKA=SW240-2816


----------



## saltytri

Now you're talkin'! That's more in the home hobbyist price range, and USA to boot. Thanks for the tip.

David


----------



## precisionworks

One other center worth looking at, if the $222 price tag is within reach, is the Royal Versa Turn. It combines an extended point center and a bull head (pipe) center into one unit.

http://www.royalprod.com/product.cfm?catID=8&id=8

http://cgi.ebay.com/Royal-MT-2-Vers...QQptZBI_Tool_Work_Holding?hash=item4832981327


----------



## saltytri

darkzero said:


> I think there has become quite the common saying in this sub forum & is my motto now.... "Blame Will" or "Blame Barry"! That has become my reasoning.  :nana: :wave:



It could be worse. They could be telling us to buy some thing really expensive like Ferraris.


----------



## PEU

This one looks nice: http://www.ctctools.biz/servlet/the-380/MT2-LIVE-CENTER-WITH/Detail


Pablo


----------



## niner

precisionworks said:


> One other center worth looking at, if the $222 price tag is within reach, is the Royal Versa Turn. It combines an extended point center and a bull head (pipe) center into one unit.
> 
> http://www.royalprod.com/product.cfm?catID=8&id=8
> 
> http://cgi.ebay.com/Royal-MT-2-Vers...QQptZBI_Tool_Work_Holding?hash=item4832981327


 
I have this one. It works out really good for me. I was told it can't handle very high load. But what I'm doing (flashlight body), it is fine.

I got it from MSC with 35% discount, came out cheaper than ebay price.


----------



## precisionworks

> I was told it can't handle very high load.


That's actually a pretty stout center. Royal rates it for a 330# load & 2160# thrust. I didn't see many of their products that had a higher rating.

They are excellent to work with if you ever damage or wear out any of their centers ...


----------



## darkzero

saltytri said:


> Well, you're right, I'm not a beginner. Those were my 2nd 3rd and 4th flashlights. :laughing:
> 
> Sharp eyes! Yes, it's a DTM AXA. I used a piece of 12L14 to replace the hex head tightener sleeve (or whatever the correct name is) with a lever and ball so I don't have to grope around for a wrench all the time - this is a big improvement in terms of convenience.


 
Show off! Again, really great work!

I really like those DTM tool posts. Had my eye on one ever since I got to see one in person, they look very high quality. How do you like it? Please convince me to get one. :laughing:


----------



## saltytri

If you want a DTM, better move fast! They're out of business but there's a guy selling the NOS on eBay. It was a little cheaper than an Aloris but not enough to get excited about.

I do like it, but then I've never seen an Aloris in the flesh. I have seen and used Phase II AXA wedge and piston and the DTM feels like a Leica compared to a Yashica (boy, am I ever dating myself!). The lever for snugging it down on the post is a huge convenience and well worth the small effort to make it up. In short, I'd certainly do the whole thing again.


----------



## wquiles

darkzero said:


> Please convince me to get one. :laughing:


Is this enough reason to get convinced?

:devil:


----------



## darkzero

saltytri said:


> If you want a DTM, better move fast! They're out of business but there's a guy selling the NOS on eBay. It was a little cheaper than an Aloris but not enough to get excited about.
> 
> I do like it, but then I've never seen an Aloris in the flesh. I have seen and used Phase II AXA wedge and piston and the DTM feels like a Leica compared to a Yashica (boy, am I ever dating myself!). The lever for snugging it down on the post is a huge convenience and well worth the small effort to make it up. In short, I'd certainly do the whole thing again.


 
Thanks. I do remember that guy from ebay stating that with all his auctions. The local tool supply has the DTM AXA for $209. I don't imagnie these to be fast sellers so perhaps they might still have some. Too bad they don't have the BXA size. The Aloris BXA is $300 new on ebay. I think I'll get one of them & eventually a DTM AXA if they're still in stock.


----------



## saltytri

For $209, run don't walk! To whet your whistle, here are a couple of photos.

The second one shows the stock part on the left. The lever version on the right has a lower segment with the bottom flange that is necessary to the clamping scheme. In this instance it had to be two-pieced to accommodate the extra diameter at the top, not to mention for ease of cutting the internal threads. The whole unit has to be disassembled to get the lower segment out, so I got lazy and didn't show it.


----------



## wquiles

saltytri said:


> ... I have seen and used Phase II AXA wedge and piston and the DTM feels like a Leica compared to a Yashica (boy, am I ever dating myself!)...
> 
> I have the Phase II, AXA in the 8x, and now BXA on the 12x, and I must admit that it does not "feel" fantastic. I mean, it does the job, but it does not feel great. I never used a higher end one like the Aloris or the DTM, but based on your description I think I know what I am "missing"
> 
> Of course, finding a BXA DTM (series 75A) might be kind of tough!


----------



## precisionworks

> I never used a higher end one like the Aloris or the DTM


I haven't used a DTM, but both Aloris & Dorian feel like a bank vault. Everything else I've tried feels like a screen door on loose hinges


----------



## saltytri

wquiles said:


> Of course, finding a BXA DTM (series 75A) might be kind of tough!



Will: 

You might try emailing the guy who is selling the DTM stuff on eBay. He seems to be dribbling it out over time and who knows what he's got in the cupboard.


----------



## darkzero

precisionworks said:


> I haven't used a DTM, but both Aloris & Dorian feel like a bank vault. Everything else I've tried feels like a screen door on loose hinges


 
Who knows how old the Armstrong, Aloris, & PhaseII tool posts are in my class but the Aloris tool posts still seem to have great consistency. I can see the movement of tool holder when the tool posts are engaged. I don't notice this with the Aloris. I'm not a fan of piston tool posts. I also hear nothing but good about Dorian tools posts as well.


----------



## precisionworks

> I'm not a fan of piston tool posts.


Depends on the maker ... the Aloris AX piston (currently on my lathe) is much better than the Chinese AXA wedge it replaced. Aloris no longer sells that post, but they sometimes come up on eBay. They sold for about $250 new, but mine cost $65 on eBay :thumbsup:


----------



## wquiles

saltytri said:


> Will:
> 
> You might try emailing the guy who is selling the DTM stuff on eBay. He seems to be dribbling it out over time and who knows what he's got in the cupboard.



What is the username of that guy you guys refered to?


----------



## saltytri

Go to eBay item # 360179005091


----------



## wquiles

OK, good, that is the same I listed above that is currently selling the AXA size. Hopefully he will have the BXA as well. Thanks :wave:


----------



## wquiles

saltytri said:


> Go to eBay item # 360179005091



Update: I just exchanged a couple of emails with him, and even got to talk to him in person for about 10-15 minutes. His name is Michael, and he is a very nice guy, very down to earth, and comes across as a very honest man. He did buy all of the remaining inventory from the original owners of DTM, and he personally got the last BXA one for himself (just got a 5-yr old Clausing lathe!), so there is no more stock of the 75 series (BXA). He does have plenty of the 65 series (AXA), like the one he has listed on Ebay right now, and of the CXA and even larger sizes. He also has remaining inventory of replacement parts for all of them as well. He is in the process of setting up his own web site and will be offering these parts for sale soon 

EDIT: I have his email (which I am not going to post in the open!), so please contact him either through Ebay of send me an email and I will give you his email privately.

Will


----------



## precisionworks

> He does have plenty of the 65 series (AXA)


Those can be shimmed, if needed, to reach center line on a slightly larger machine.


----------



## darkzero

precisionworks said:


> Depends on the maker ... the Aloris AX piston (currently on my lathe) is much better than the Chinese AXA wedge it replaced. Aloris no longer sells that post, but they sometimes come up on eBay. They sold for about $250 new, but mine cost $65 on eBay :thumbsup:


 
Nice, I'm sure most anything Aloris is well worth it. I always hear wedge type is the way to go but as I have always been, I'd like to know why & how? What are the advantages / disadvantages?




precisionworks said:


> Those can be shimmed, if needed, to reach center line on a slightly larger machine.


 
Although I know Aloris makes oversized AXA holders I would guess one main important reason not to step down to an AXA from a BXA (in Will's case) would be the 1/2" limit in tool size which also comes with the limits in available tooling (especially for those who want to use the largest tooling possible, again Will's fault).


----------



## precisionworks

> wedge type is the way to go


The mechanics of the wedging action work in favor of that design. Think about the way an adjustable parallel works and that same principal applies to the wedge type tool post. As the two angled mating surfaces are moved together, the two parallel sides spread apart - so the tool holder block is wedged into position. Both Aloris & Dorian claim repeatability of 0.00005" (50 millionths), but the import wedge that I had was no where near those numbers. Even so, a poorly made wedge will still tightly grip the holder because of the mechanics involved.

For a piston to work, it has to be dead on. That means that the piston to block clearance is almost size on size, which is tough to do. And all the rest of the parts have to fit better than a wedge. A poorly made piston post would be a nightmare.

All things equal, the wedge is preferred. But I'd never trade my Aloris piston for the piece of junk wedge it replaced


----------



## precisionworks

Another option, if you have $42 and a few hours to spare, is to build the MLA tool post from their kit. A single lever is used to both lock the rotation of the post and lock the holder to the post. Pretty neat 

http://statecollegecentral.com/metallathe/MLA-23.html


----------



## wquiles

precisionworks said:


> Another option, if you have $42 and a few hours to spare, is to build the MLA tool post from their kit. A single lever is used to both lock the rotation of the post and lock the holder to the post. Pretty neat
> 
> http://statecollegecentral.com/metallathe/MLA-23.html



And you can look here for a kindred spirit to mine - he also like to photo-document his projects just as I do:
Machining the MLA-23 kit ...

Will


----------



## darkzero

precisionworks said:


> The mechanics of the wedging action work in favor of that design. Think about the way an adjustable parallel works and that same principal applies to the wedge type tool post. As the two angled mating surfaces are moved together, the two parallel sides spread apart - so the tool holder block is wedged into position. Both Aloris & Dorian claim repeatability of 0.00005" (50 millionths), but the import wedge that I had was no where near those numbers. Even so, a poorly made wedge will still tightly grip the holder because of the mechanics involved.
> 
> For a piston to work, it has to be dead on. That means that the piston to block clearance is almost size on size, which is tough to do. And all the rest of the parts have to fit better than a wedge. A poorly made piston post would be a nightmare.
> 
> All things equal, the wedge is preferred. But I'd never trade my Aloris piston for the piece of junk wedge it replaced


 
Thanks for the lesson.  Those MLA tool posts are interesting. I know what you mean, after using some "nice" tool posts I now see how bad my wedge tool post is that I have now on my 8x14. I've learned to live with it for now. I find myself having to make sure I engage it first when checking for cutter height. :shakehead

What about those 40 position QCTPs like these? I ask cause my new lathe comes with one. Doesn't look all that great though. I'll probably end up changing it anyway but I've always been curious about them. The holders seem to be proprietary for these type of tool posts.


----------



## PEU

Here is a build log of said toolpost: http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/showthread.php?t=174336 

This lady Paula documents the project like Will, Im sure they are related somehow   

[edit]

Now that I read that thread for a second time (I think) I fully understand how it works, the cone plug puts pressure on the body making it to expand and keep the toolholder safe in place, but I wonder if the body holds the toolholder tightly along all of the body height, it seems the top part should spread open more than the bottom part, or Im missing something?

Pablo


----------



## cmacclel

darkzero said:


> Although not a Royal, Skoda has one for just under $200.
> http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INSRIT?PMAKA=510-2307&PMPXNO=8916852&PARTPG=INLMK32
> 
> The same one costs just under $220 at MSC but if you wait for a 35-40% off day you might be able to get it for well under $150.
> 
> Not sure if those go on sale at Enco but I got my Skoda for about $80 with free shipping.
> http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INSRIT?PMAKA=891-4082&PMPXNO=3904133&PARTPG=INLMK32




I bought a brand new Royal Versa-Turn live center and messed it up the first time I used it! I put a nice groove in it 

http://www.royalprod.com/product.cfm?catID=8&id=8

Mac


----------



## wquiles

PEU said:


> Here is a build log of said toolpost: http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/showthread.php?t=174336
> 
> This lady Paula documents the project like Will, Im sure they are related somehow
> 
> [edit]
> 
> Now that I read that thread for a second time (I think) I fully understand how it works, the cone plug puts pressure on the body making it to expand and keep the toolholder safe in place, but I wonder if the body holds the toolholder tightly along all of the body height, it seems the top part should spread open more than the bottom part, or Im missing something?
> 
> Pablo



Yup, maybe Paula and I are related somehow ... :huh:

Kind of funny that I actually posted the same link you did, two posts above yours  . Like you I read that thread like 4-5 times last night, and came to the same conclusion/questions:

- the "plug" at roughly 45 deg presses on the split body, when pushed down by the lever forces the body of the tool post to enlarge, thereby "locking" the tool holder. I have various tool post holders from various sources, some came with my Phase II, some came with my PM1236 lathe, some I bought from CDCO tools - they all have "slightly" different width's to the dovetail cut - this means that this split-open tool post design would have to split more for some holder and less for others, so it would be technically hard (impossible?) to give them all the same force since the body itself is trying to resist being forced open - you would have to manually apply a larger locking force to compensate for a wider dovetail. Don't get me wrong, it is clean, neat, simple, and elegant, but I don't see it doing a good job as an Aloris-type wedge design where the wedge expands to fit whatever holder you happen to have, and can implant the same pressure/force regardless of the width of the dovetail.

- I don't like either that the force to open the body seems to be at that one place, and only in one direction. I think that an even better design would/should apply opposing forces - using two cones, to force open the body from top and from the bottom - at least in theory sounds like a more solid and even design, where you would have more even forces trying to open the body.

- the same down pressure on the screw to the T-slot also locks the whole block in place against the top of the carriage. Since you have a single lever, every time you loosen the body to change the tool post, you also loosen the pressure keeping the body aligned, so you would have to re-align the tool post "every single time" you change a cutting tool - I don't see "anything" that would preclude that. Even though this is mentioned as a "feature", I don't like that at all - I want to change tool posts at will without having to realign the tool post holder.

On a related note about tool post design - the guy who is now selling on Ebay all of the remaining inventory of the DTM company said that when he meet the owners of DTM he got to see and play with a cut-out version of the DTM holder where is was easy to see the improvements of the Aloris design - I wish I can see the innards as well 

Will


----------



## PEU

wquiles said:


> Yup, maybe Paula and I are related somehow ... :huh:
> 
> Kind of funny that I actually posted the same link you did, two posts above yours



Its clear that I read that post more carefully than this one... 

IMHO nothing replaces a quality fit between the toolpost and the toolholder, and I think this can only be obtained if both pieces are manufactured by the same manufacturer.


Pablo


----------



## precisionspin

Hello All,
I am that eBay DTM guy you speak of. This is a forum I had never heard of in the past. Thank you Will for the kind words!
Any DTM needs you may have I may be able to help you out with.
Due to CPF policy I will not do any advertising here.
You can email me at [email protected] .
The site will be a while off, due to going back to my tool maker job of 25 years in a week and a half. I am also taking 4 classes to get my business off on the right foot.
I was laid off in March after 25 years at that job. Ironically they courted me back and I will be keeping my seniority.
The company had sent me to China 6 years ago. I trained them on how to do my job......and then they got it.
Things are screwed up in this country now for sure.

Regards,
Mike


----------



## niner

wquiles said:


> On a related note about tool post design - the guy who is now selling on Ebay all of the remaining inventory of the DTM company said that when he meet the owners of DTM he got to see and play with a cut-out version of the DTM holder where is was easy to see the improvements of the Aloris design - I wish I can see the innards as well
> 
> Will


 
Will, does he imply DTM is superior in design than Aloris?


----------



## precisionworks

> does he imply DTM is superior in design than Aloris?


I also wondered about that. I've used Aloris posts, as well as Dorian posts, that had been running production for decades. Mostly larger sizes like the C or D, as we never had any smaller machines. Even after 20+ years of heavy use, both the Aloris & Dorian posts still worked like new. I just can't imagine what could be done to make them better, or to make them last longer.


----------



## wquiles

niner said:


> Will, does he imply DTM is superior in design than Aloris?



I am sure Mike (above) can do a better job in sharing the information, but yes, the owners/founders of DTM who worked for Aloris came up with a better mouse trap, ahem, tool post. Mike stated that in the cut-out of the DTM tool post you can clearly see the improvements - but I personally don't know exactly that the improvements are. 

During my search over the last week or so, every single post of folks who had tried both the Aloris and the DTM stated that they liked the DTM better, but I don't know exactly why.


----------



## precisionworks

> every single post of folks who had tried both the Aloris and the DTM stated that they liked the DTM better


Probably because they are no longer made


----------



## saltytri

Or because we just don't know any better. 

Fat, dumb and happy....


----------



## KowShak

Over here in the UK, the common toolpost is the ****son, other quick change posts were pretty rare in the past and aren't so common now either.

Nobody has mentioned them yet, do you get them in the states at all? If so how do you guys rate them?


----------



## precisionworks

You guys have been killing me with all this talk about tools posts. I phoned Aloris & spoke with their tech reps, then phoned Dorian & did the same. Decided on the Dorian SUPER Quick Change Tool Post (hey, they chose the name ). The things that most impressed me about the SQCTP are:

Triple Action Wedge Style Locking System - The locking system has a sliding gib which travels inside the fixed dovetail of the tool post and is pushed out from a double eccentric locking pin engineered to maximize the locking force.

Repeatability within .0001"

15º Locking Handle Position Adjustment so the handle can be positioned where wanted


All internal parts are replaceable & available from Dorian. I purchased the first time buyer's kit that includes the SQCTP, four holders, four inserted tools (turning, threading, parting & boring) and five inserts. About $650-$700 at most online stores, but Ajax Industries on eBay sold it for $590 with free shipping (I had to telephone to get the free shipping). 

http://cgi.ebay.com/Dorian-Quick-Ch...0151426128QQcmdZViewItemQQptZBI_Tool_Work_850

Tech service at Dorian emailed some info that shows the internal parts, if anyone wants to see how the SQCTP is made. PM your email address & I'll forward it to you.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

NOTE: In the past, Dorian made an earlier version of the SQCTP that is black in color (still has the large yellow circle on the side). The mechanism is far different from the "new" or current version SQCTP. Dorian Part Numbers are the key to telling the difference, for example:

NEW version in BXA - PN 733101-01021
OLD version in BXA - PN 33101-01002

The old ones are less expensive by about $50, but far less desirable. The new version is red-orange in color, which is the easiest way to tell the two apart. The new version has been available since May, 2008.


----------



## wquiles

precisionworks said:


> You guys have been killing me with all this talk about tools posts. I phoned Aloris & spoke with their tech reps, then phoned Dorian & did the same. Decided on the Dorian SUPER Quick Change Tool Post (hey, they chose the name ). The things that most impressed me about the SQCTP are:
> 
> Triple Action Wedge Style Locking System - The locking system has a sliding gib which travels inside the fixed dovetail of the tool post and is pushed out from a double eccentric locking pin engineered to maximize the locking force.
> 
> Repeatability within .0001"
> 
> 15º Locking Handle Position Adjustment so the handle can be positioned where wanted
> 
> 
> All internal parts are replaceable & available from Dorian. I purchased the first time buyer's kit that includes the SQCTP, four holders, four inserted tools (turning, threading, parting & boring) and five inserts. About $650-$700 at most online stores, but Ajax Industries on eBay sold it for $590 with free shipping (I had to telephone to get the free shipping).
> 
> http://cgi.ebay.com/Dorian-Quick-Ch...0151426128QQcmdZViewItemQQptZBI_Tool_Work_850
> 
> Tech service at Dorian emailed some info that shows the internal parts, if anyone wants to see how the SQCTP is made. PM your email address & I'll forward it to you.



Interested for sure. PM sent 

Will


----------



## darkzero

saltytri said:


> For $209, run don't walk! To whet your whistle, here are a couple of photos.
> 
> The second one shows the stock part on the left. The lever version on the right has a lower segment with the bottom flange that is necessary to the clamping scheme. In this instance it had to be two-pieced to accommodate the extra diameter at the top, not to mention for ease of cutting the internal threads. The whole unit has to be disassembled to get the lower segment out, so I got lazy and didn't show it.


 
Ok, well doesn't take much to convince me. :laughing: I've been looking at one of these for a while. Now that I know someone who has experience with one of these I've decided it's time to get one. So this time I blame you! :nana:

Drove down to Travers yesterday although I already had a feeling they didn't have any. Sure enough no more in stock. They did have a $50 coupon in celebration for their past remodeling. They have the Aloris AXA for $293. So with the $50 coupon & tax it would have came out to $265. I decided to think about it. I also checked out some Dorian tool posts as well. Very very nice equipment but I can't afford that right now so I'll just stick with their tooling. Great to have a local place that carries them in stock.

Contacted Mike. As Will stated, a very great guy & offered a great price on the DTM TP65A. Turns out getting it from Mike came out to be a few dollars cheaper than if I had picked it up for $209 from Travers (I forgot about the damn tax, we pay 9.25% here!). He's going to include a catalog as well as a list of what he has available.

So now I'll get to see how good the DTM really feels & should be here well before the new lathe arrives. The wait for everything is now starting to feel longer & longer.


----------



## precisionworks

If anyone is looking for a CNMG face mill, Dorian still lists those in their catalog. Look on page 16:

http://www.magtoolsmexico.com/DORIAN_80-20-e.pdf

Part # REC15 - 200 - CN4 - R8


----------



## saltytri

darkzero said:


> Ok, well doesn't take much to convince me. :laughing: I've been looking at one of these for a while. Now that I know someone who has experience with one of these I've decided it's time to get one. So this time I blame you! :nana:



Will:

Blame me?!?! Heck, you ought to be thanking me big time. 

Here's another way to spend your money. I just got an Aloris 5C holder for the DTM. Used it today to hold a carbide boring bar to bore out the body for a light I'm making out of stainless. I'm happy to report that this setup works great! Better do some shopping. :devil:

David


----------



## precisionworks

> but there are two Indexable End Mill Kits, 1" diameter, including 10 inserts, for *$73.37*.


Got the end mill, secured it in a 1" ER40 collet, set the speed to 1000 rpm & tried an easy side milling cut - roughly .250" DOC, which would have been no problem with a 4-flute solid carbide end mill (of the same 1" diameter). Cutting action was poor, most likely because of only 2 inserts. Ran the speed up to 1500, same result. To eBay it went 

Jumped back on grainger.com and found a 2" diameter shell end mill kit that uses the same APKT/APPT insert, but with 5 inserts to spread the cutting load (lower chipload per tooth). The arbor that was purchased for the 45 degree face mill also fits this end mill, so that helped. $114.32 including 10 inserts 

http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/items/2LAL7?Pid=search


----------



## precisionworks

> NEW version in BXA - PN 733101-01021
> OLD version in BXA - PN 33101-01002



Wrong info, so here's a correction :shakehead

The "old" SQCTP, black color, has not been made for two years. One was recently listed on eBay, but no distributor has any stock (as far as Dorian is aware).

The "new" SQCTP, red-orange in color, has superceded the black one. To make things confusing, Dorian did not change their part number when they updated the tool post design.

Photos to follow when mine arrives later this week :nana:


----------



## darkzero

saltytri said:


> Will:
> 
> Blame me?!?! Heck, you ought to be thanking me big time.
> David


 
Got to blame someone so it makes me feel better. :laughing: Thanks. Got the DTM TP65A today. It feels & looks great! Can't wait to try it out. Will have some holders on the way too.




precisionworks said:


> Photos to follow when mine arrives later this week :nana:


 
Looking foward to it even though I just picked up a TP. 

Now that I look at it, it wasn't the SQCTP I was looking at the other day when I was at Travers, it was the Quadra TP. Talk about pricey but a very nice piece of equipment which allows four holders to be mounted at once. 

I'm sure you also know but Dorian also has a coolant through TP (Victory) along with specialty holders & tooling designed to be used with it. 
http://www.industrydepot.com/DorianThruCoolantSystem.htm

So Will when you gonna buy it so you can show us how it works along with pics. :laughing: :nana:


----------



## wquiles

precisionworks said:


> Got the end mill, secured it in a 1" ER40 collet, set the speed to 1000 rpm & tried an easy side milling cut - roughly .250" DOC, which would have been no problem with a 4-flute solid carbide end mill (of the same 1" diameter). Cutting action was poor, most likely because of only 2 inserts. Ran the speed up to 1500, same result. To eBay it went
> 
> Jumped back on grainger.com and found a 2" diameter shell end mill kit that uses the same APKT/APPT insert, but with 5 inserts to spread the cutting load (lower chipload per tooth). The arbor that was purchased for the 45 degree face mill also fits this end mill, so that helped. $114.32 including 10 inserts
> 
> http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/items/2LAL7?Pid=search



Barry,

I have a 1.5" dia face mill, and need to buy a wider one, but noticed that they come in 2", 3", and 4", specially these really nice ones Pablo posted in the deals thread:
glacern deals ...

Couple of follow-up questions:
1) For a face mill, how do you know to buy a 2" vs. a 4" diameter head? Is it a HP limitation? Wouldn't (everything else being equal) the 4" diameter head do everything the 2" diameter head do, but in fewer passes and therefore a nicer/even finish in the larger stock pieces?

2) For a face mill, why pick a 45deg vs. a 90deg? Pros/cons? At face value the 45deg can be used for face milling (dahh!!), but also to give a 45deg bevel to the edges - wouldn't that make the 45deg more versatile? Something like this one:
Face Mill Kit, 4 In Nominal Dia, 45 Deg


Will
(still much to learn ...)


----------



## precisionworks

> how do you know to buy a 2" vs. a 4" diameter head


The R-8 spindle is the limiting factor. 2"-3" is as large as most people go. A bigger machine running a 40 taper spindle can handle 6" or larger tools, and a 50 taper spindle can run a tool that is huge.



> why pick a 45deg vs. a 90deg?


The 45 degree angle of approach to the work surface (aka high shear) lifts the chip, requiring less hp, ideal for small mills. The 45 deg side angle can be used for chamfering. They are a joy to run ... 1000 rpm (over 500 sfpm), fast feed, dead quiet, blue chips that fly 10' or more.

The 90 deg (side angle) give a square shoulder. The approach angle is usually 10-15 degrees. It just depends on your needs.

I did pick up one more end mill late today, from Vic at Rani Tool. 1.5" R-8 that uses 3 APHT1604 inserts (Vic claims these are very free cutting). 10 inserts plus the tool for $150, which is way under everything else I've seen. Aluminum specific inserts are also available from him in APHT.


----------



## wquiles

Cool, thanks, looks like 3" dia 45 deg mill head will be perfect for my current needs.

Can you please point me to the required, high quality R8 spinder shell holder for these milling heads?

Will


----------



## precisionworks

> point me to the required, high quality R8 spindle shell holder


Always happy to help spend your money :lolsign:
Call Tom Johnson and tell him you want Bison-TMX part number HK30065010 at $56.50 + shipping. That's the R8 shell mill arbor with .750" diameter shank (double check to make sure that's the correct bore for your shell mill - other sizes are available from Bison TMX)

(248) 442-9482 

I just spoke with Tom & he is waiting for your call :nana:


----------



## precisionworks

Is this the part number - RF00300S100SD43C - for the 3" face mill?

If so, bore is 1"


----------



## wquiles

precisionworks said:


> Is this the part number - RF00300S100SD43C - for the 3" face mill?
> 
> If so, bore is 1"



I went ahead and ordered the 3" 45Deg shell from Glacern Machine Tools:
 link ...

and it does use/need a 1" bore.

For inserts, I wend with the Korboloy SEHT43 Grade X83 - Uncoated, polished, and ground inserts. Once I add the price of the shell and inserts, it was similar to the combined special on Grainger, but I got to pick the inserts I wanted.

Will


----------



## wquiles

precisionworks said:


> Always happy to help spend your money :lolsign:
> Call Tom Johnson and tell him you want Bison-TMX part number HK30065010 at $56.50 + shipping. That's the R8 shell mill arbor with .750" diameter shank (double check to make sure that's the correct bore for your shell mill - other sizes are available from Bison TMX)
> 
> (248) 442-9482
> 
> I just spoke with Tom & he is waiting for your call :nana:



As I don't take your advice lightly, I went and call him just now. Funny thing, we even talked a little in Spanish (my native tongue, as I am from Puerto Rico).

I sent him an email with all of the information, so he will be processing my order soon, as well as creating an account for me - I suspect this will not be the last time I talk to Tom 

Will


----------



## PEU

Entonces no es Tom... es Tomas  

(then its not Tom... is Tomas)


Pablo


----------



## wquiles

PEU said:


> Entonces no es Tom... es Tomas
> 
> (then its not Tom... is Tomas)
> 
> 
> Pablo



Exactamente. El se acordaba un poco del Espanol que aprendio en su escuela superior.

(Yup. He happen to remember some of the Spanish he learned while in high school)

Will


----------



## wquiles

PEU said:


> Entonces no es Tom... es Tomas
> 
> (then its not Tom... is Tomas)
> 
> 
> Pablo



By the way, thanks for the link to the specials by "glacern" 

Will


----------



## precisionworks

In Mexico, the most important word I learned was Negra Modelo

http://www.negramodelo.com/w/ 







-----------------------------------------------------------------------



> For inserts, I went with the Korboloy SEHT43


You may also want to call Vic at Rani Tool. He is closing out three or four grades in that shape, from Tyson Tool, and the price is outstanding. $3.99 uncoated, $4.99 coated.

Tyson clearance sheet: 
http://www.tysontool.com/ClearanceItems071509.pdf

Rani Tool eBay store:
http://stores.ebay.com/Discount-CNC-Cutting-Tools


----------



## wquiles

Here in Mexico City, I prefer Agavero or Anis, after a good meal, and if we are celebrating a good deal with a customer, then we will also have some Tequila (Tradicional helada) at the beginning of the meal 

Will


----------



## precisionworks

> ordered the 3" 45 Deg shell from Glacern


That's a good looking tool at a great price. You will be amazed at how it performs.



> went with the Korboloy SEHT43 Grade X83


Their website says _"These high-positive inserts feature razor sharp edges for maximum productivity in *stainless* steel, *aluminum* and other *non-ferrous* alloys." 

_You'll also want to have a box of general purpose inserts, perhaps something with an AlTiN or other coating, as these don't have the high-positive edge shape, nor the razor sharp edge prep. The less sharp edge and tougher substrate are a better choice for steel or cast iron. Glacern shows these as the Kenna SEHW43 Grade K2885, and says _"__General purpose grade, excellent for both roughing and finishing of steels and cast iron. Cemented carbide substrate is wear and impact resistant."_ The equivalent grade from Valenite is V05, and Sandvik calls it a GC-3015.



> found a 2" diameter shell end mill kit that uses the same APKT/APPT insert, but with 5 inserts to spread the cutting load


The brown truck delivered that yesterday, and I got a few minutes of spindle time around 11:30 last evening. Ran it at the same sfpm as the 45 deg mill head & it does a nice job. Not as free cutting as the high shear mill, no surprise there, so the feed has to be slower. But it leaves a near mirror finish & cuts a square shoulder, so it's a good addition to the tool kit. 



> I suspect this will not be the last time I talk to Tom


He's a good guy, able to get lots of top end tooling & doesn't feel the need to mark the price up beyond reason. The same shell mill arbor that he sold for $56.50 was offered to me for $79.95 by another seller. And his shipping charges are low, $5 or $6 instead of $10-$12 from MSC, Grainger or McMaster. I needed to replace a 3/4" and a 1" S&D drill bit, and Tom got both of those through Titan Tool. Very nice quality, every bit as good as Precision Twist, but not quite as much money. Ask him to send a Titan Tool catalog.


----------



## wquiles

Got the 3" cutter today - it is HUGE!











Here it is compared to my Iscar 1.5" face mill cutter:











The matching R8 arbor should hopefully arrive this week


----------



## precisionworks

A nice addition to the stable ... from Rani Tool, their "house brand" AP90-1500-R8, which is a 90 degree, 1.500" end mill, using APHT-1604 inserts. These are ground sharp, like little razors. Smooth cutting for a small diameter end mill.






Also, a Lyndex ER-40 collet nut _with ball bearing_. Best thing I've ever done for the ER-40 collet chuck. Available for other ER sized collet chucks.


----------



## wquiles

precisionworks said:


> Also, a Lyndex ER-40 collet nut _with ball bearing_. Best thing I've ever done for the ER-40 collet chuck. Available for other ER sized collet chucks.


I also use an ER-40 collet. What does the ball bearing part do different for you?


----------



## precisionworks

> What does the ball bearing part do different


If you analyze any collet chuck, the outside "rear" taper of the collet is being pushed into the matching internal chuck taper. As the nut is tightened,there is increasing pressure on the front face of the collet as pressure is transmitted through the front face to the rear taper. Without a ball bearing, there is tremendous metal on metal pressure as the nut is turned but the collet remains stationary. The ball bearing allows much easier rotation of the nut.

The studies I've seen state that better collet concentricity is achieved with the BB nut. Greater clamping pressure is a second benefit. Here are some good reads on collets:

http://www.rego-fix.com/colletcare/

http://www.mmsonline.com/articles/the-real-cost-of-runout.aspx


----------



## wquiles

precisionworks said:


> If you analyze any collet chuck, the outside "rear" taper of the collet is being pushed into the matching internal chuck taper. As the nut is tightened,there is increasing pressure on the front face of the collet as pressure is transmitted through the front face to the rear taper. Without a ball bearing, there is tremendous metal on metal pressure as the nut is turned but the collet remains stationary. The ball bearing allows much easier rotation of the nut.
> 
> The studies I've seen state that better collet concentricity is achieved with the BB nut. Greater clamping pressure is a second benefit. Here are some good reads on collets:
> 
> http://www.rego-fix.com/colletcare/
> 
> http://www.mmsonline.com/articles/the-real-cost-of-runout.aspx



Gotcha. Convinced. Where do I get mine from?


----------



## precisionworks

The Lyndex BB nut came from Vic at Rani Tool. $40 (I think  )


----------



## wquiles

The Bison shell R8 arbor that I ordered from Tom arrived today:


----------



## Mesa Tool

precisionworks said:


> That's not a bad price on the bar, and the inserts aren't expensive either.
> 
> Also, if you need a larger diameter bar, look at the ones from Mesa Tool. Imported, but decent quality, fast shipping, etc. I bought three of their 3/4" diameter bars for my 3" boring head.
> 
> http://shop.ebay.com/merchant/mesa-tool


Precisionworks,
Thanks for the good review of my tools, but don't let the price fool you. I make all my tools right here in So. Oregon!.....JIM


----------



## wquiles

Mesa Tool said:


> Precisionworks,
> Thanks for the good review of my tools, but don't let the price fool you. I make all my tools right here in So. Oregon!.....JIM



Awesome - thanks for joining 

This is a relatively small group within the larger flashlight forum, but we share and learn from each other, even if Barry's recommendations end up costing us money 

Will


----------



## Tekno_Cowboy

Mesa Tool said:


> Precisionworks,
> Thanks for the good review of my tools, but don't let the price fool you. I make all my tools right here in So. Oregon!.....JIM



Thanks for joining the forum. I've bought from you before, and I'm glad to see you here. :twothumbs:


----------



## precisionworks

> even if Barry's recommendations end up costing us money


Actually, the boring bars from Mesa Tool are inexpensive enough that you can buy quite a few & abrasive saw them to a shorter length when needed - which I've done. Low prices on the inserts also.



> I make all my tools right here in So. Oregon!.....JIM





You should advertise that fact ... or maybe you do & I missed it


----------



## StrikerDown

Jim,

Thanks for joining. 
I decided to try a couple of your products, a boring bar and inside/outside threading tool. I will be posting here how I like them,

Thanks Again.


----------



## saltytri

Jim is just a couple of towns over and we had a chance to get together yesterday. He's the only internet store guy I've ever known who makes personal deliveries. :twothumbs

The inserts are very nice - precision ground - and you can't beat the price. So far, I've used his threading and grooving inserts in the 1/2" threading/grooving tool that he makes in his shop. This size tool holder is just about right for a lot of the stuff I've been doing on lights. 

USA-made tools aren't the general rule anymore so it's nice to find someone who actually makes quality stuff here.

David


----------



## Mesa Tool

saltytri said:


> Jim is just a couple of towns over and we had a chance to get together yesterday. He's the only internet store guy I've ever known who makes personal deliveries. :twothumbs
> 
> The inserts are very nice - precision ground - and you can't beat the price. So far, I've used his threading and grooving inserts in the 1/2" threading/grooving tool that he makes in his shop. This size tool holder is just about right for a lot of the stuff I've been doing on lights.
> 
> USA-made tools aren't the general rule anymore so it's nice to find someone who actually makes quality stuff here.
> 
> David


Ah shucks guys, I just like meeting local customers to see what they are up to and maybe learn more about thier needs.

If I had not gone to visit saltytri (David), I would have never known about the new generation of lights out there....You have my attention!

I teach shop practices part time at the local JC and I think I have convinced my boss to include a flashlight as a possible project for students. Something they can actually use *and *show off!

Of course we will be using this site to learn about the guts! We also have the equipment to let the students run with some really bizzar ideas, so look out world...

Thanks to all.....JIM


----------



## precisionworks

Using the 2" high shear face mill to reduce piston height:







Not a bad finish, right off the tool:





Anybody need some aluminum confetti?


----------



## wquiles

Nice finish indeed. I certainly love my 45 deg cutter as well


----------



## Davo J

Those ER40 BB collet nuts are available on ebay all the time as well for 12 pound they also have the ER32 ones
http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ER40-collet-...emQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_3?hash=item56372c7791
Dave


----------



## KowShak

precisionworks said:


> Using the 2" high shear face mill to reduce piston height:


 I like that photo, you can see the chips as they fly through the air.....


----------



## precisionworks

> I like that photo, you can see the chips as they fly through the air.....


Thank you. It took half a dozen tries to get one that showed what I wanted, as the self timer tripped while I cranked the feed wheel.

FWIW, the Mitu Digimatic indicator was fixed upside down so the downfeed could be controlled to +/- .0005". The op sequence was to remove .100", .100", and a light finish cut of .057". After all six pistons were cut, each weighed within half a gram of all the others.


----------



## wquiles

precisionworks said:


> The Lyndex BB nut came from Vic at Rani Tool. $40 (I think  )



Just talk to Vic at Rani Tool and ordered the Lyndex BB nut. As much as I use my R8-ER40 tooling might as well make make it easier on me and the tooling.

Thanks Barry,
Will
(now about $40 poorer ...)


----------



## wquiles

precisionworks said:


> Thank you. It took half a dozen tries to get one that showed what I wanted, as the self timer tripped while I cranked the feed wheel.
> 
> FWIW, the Mitu Digimatic indicator was fixed upside down so the downfeed could be controlled to +/- .0005". The op sequence was to remove .100", .100", and a light finish cut of .057". After all six pistons were cut, each weighed within half a gram of all the others.



Barry,

Would you ever need any sort of lubrication/mister on a job like that to get an even nicer finish? Or would lubrication only help reduce BUE and allow you to run even faster speeds?

Will


----------



## precisionworks

> Would you ever need any sort of lubrication/mister on a job like that


It surely wouldn't hurt. The biggest problem with that job is my sfpm is way too low, just over 500. It should be around 1500-2000. Wrong inserts as well, as they need to be the high positive shape with polished rake face.

If I ever get a VFD on that machine, the higher sfpm should be attainable ... somewhere near 4000 rpm would be nice for the 2" face mill in aluminum. At that point, the vortex air cooler would be blowing away the hot chips 

I sometimes rub a thin film of Tapmagic or Accu-Lube on aluminum before the final cut. The surface has a much nicer cosmetic look when using the lubricant. No one will ever again see the tops of these pistons


----------



## wquiles

Back on topic, this is my Ebay solid carbide bar (7/8" dia) that uses CNMG 43* inserts that I use to do inside boring on "D" Mag flashlights. I have been holding this bar in an Aloris 5C Collet BXA holder, but as you know the amount of bar that is "gripped" by the collet is not that much, so on some jobs I get a little bit of chatter specially when the overhang is much more than the recommended.

I recently picked up this heavy Duty Dorian used BXA 1" boring bar holder, so I decided to make a custom fitted sleeve so that I can firmly grip the 7/8" bar in this holder and thus have a more solid/firmer setup. I had a piece of scrap water hardening dril rod os exactly 1" dia that fits the holder like a glove, so it became my new sleeve:











Drill rod is a lot harder to work with than Al, so I tried a few of the CNMG inserts I had in hand:






I made some nice strings:






but the tip was damaged in the process:











So I slowed down the spindle speed and tried some other inserts that I had, and after facing the other side, not even a hint of damage:











Drilling the initial hole took a LOT of work!. Cool photo through the back of the spindle, looking at the Bison 6-jaw chuck holding the sleeve:






Used magnets to help me clean up faster later (they DID help!):











Sliding fit on the 7/8" bar:











Slit it by hand:






The sleeve expanded upon being slit, so I used oil and gentle persuasion from my rubber mallet to slide it home (not the greatest finish due to the over hang on the boring bar, but the grip is tenacious):











And now I have a much firmer setup for holding my 7/8" bar for those jobs that require a long over hang:












Will


----------



## cmacclel

I need to get me one of them holders they look nice. Tool steel is hard 

Mac


----------



## 65535

I think what you really should have done is bought the proper 1" boring bar. 

BTW what happened to the leading edge, if it did heat up that hot, you may have experience some hardening at the cutting edge, which in turn may have been the cause of your drilling hardship. The work piece should not discolor, the chips yes, but definitely not the workpiece.


----------



## wquiles

cmacclel said:


> I need to get me one of them holders they look nice. Tool steel is hard
> 
> Mac


Yes, those holders are "very" nice 




65535 said:


> I think what you really should have done is bought the proper 1" boring bar.


I already have a 1" bar, but for these Mag boring jobs the 7/8" fits better and also fits in the "C" body, where the 1" bar does not 




65535 said:


> BTW what happened to the leading edge, if it did heat up that hot, you may have experience some hardening at the cutting edge, which in turn may have been the cause of your drilling hardship. The work piece should not discolor, the chips yes, but definitely not the workpiece.


Yes, totally mia culpa. The discoloring happened at the end of the drilling operation (far inside the chuck) where I did not have as much/any coolant to help things cool. Next time I will go slower and do more peck drilling which should also help - still learning


----------



## precisionworks

> Drill rod is a lot harder to work with



Of all the tool steels, W1 is the easiest to machine. It carries a machinability rating of 100 when compared to other tool steels:






Here are some starting SFPM numbers for different tool steels:







To drill at 85 sfpm in 1" stock, the spindle speed calculates to 325 rpm.


----------



## wquiles

precisionworks said:


> To drill at 85 sfpm in 1" stock, the spindle speed calculates to 325 rpm.


That was probably where I messed up - if I recall correctly I was drilling at about 700-800 RPM's :shakehead


----------



## cmacclel

wquiles said:


> Drilling the initial hole took a LOT of work!. :shakehead


 

Now you know how my shoulder feels when drilling Titanium body's all day  I drill Titanium by starting with a 1/4 cobalt drill at 250rpm then a 1/2 drill at 150rpm. Fun..Fun..Fun!

I think I would have used softer material for the sleeve myself. Brass comes to mind  or like 303 SS.

Mac


----------



## 65535

Hell most people would have just rolled some .0625" shim stock into a round and used that.


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## wquiles

cmacclel said:


> Now you know how my shoulder feels when drilling Titanium body's all day  I drill Titanium by starting with a 1/4 cobalt drill at 250rpm then a 1/2 drill at 150rpm. Fun..Fun..Fun!
> 
> I think I would have used softer material for the sleeve myself. Brass comes to mind  or like 303 SS.
> 
> Mac


Noted. Perhaps I will stay away from working with Ti in the foreseeable future :devil:




65535 said:


> Hell most people would have just rolled some .0625" shim stock into a round and used that.


And loose the opportunity to learn something new? Nahh. Plus I though that we established already that there is something wrong with my brain and how I do projects 

Lets be thankful that this is still a hobby and that I am not yet trying to do this work for a profit - I would go broke


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