# Low light / Night fire training class



## Kestrel (Jan 3, 2014)

Recently I did a *Low Light / Night Fire* (i.e. handgun & flashlight) class at OFA here in Oregon.

The one-day (actually afternoon through early night), 8-hour class involved both classroom instruction and extensive firing range practice, and concluded with a police-qualification course-of-fire (I'm not a LEO BTW).

I learned some interesting things in the class and wanted to post with a number of things to share.

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I brought my two favorite small SureFires to the class, a 'Crosshairs' C2 and a 6Z.
(My larger C3, Z3, 9Z, & 7Z stayed at home, and my G2Z & G3Z aren't ready yet - starting to see a pattern? lol)

The 'grip ring' SF's were specifically designed for use with a handgun, and I have also found (through *much* usage) that this flashlight configuration works very well for me in general use as well. I do keep my SF C2 in my nightstand along with one or two other things. Both of these lights have been bored for 18650's and for the class I used my treasured Moddoo V2 XPG DD Triple drop-in in both lights (more on that later).







Clickable thumbnail below, regarding other things that are slightly off-topic for this thread. 





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The class started with a classroom discussion on the more theoretical aspects of using a flashlight with a handgun, as well as the specific challenges of shooting in low light situations. First, some of the flashlight basics were covered, incandescent vs. LED, output, beam characterisics, switch types, single vs. multimodes, etc.

The instructors did state a preference for an output 'sweet spot' of ~100-200 lumens; they claimed that higher outputs could result in blinding reflections in close quarters. I have attended a few other OFA classes by now and am on reasonably good terms with the instructors, so I asked permission to quickly demonstrate something after they went over the aspects of hotspot vs. spill. (They already know I'm a flashlight junkie, lol.)

I went up to their graphic showing a typical beam pattern and fired up the XPG triple to overlay its beam on the diagram. I stated that this light was something like ~1500 lumens, but due to the absence of a central hotspot, I didn't feel like there were any points for concern, just a HUGE field of well-illuminated view (something the triple optics do far better than standard single optic or reflectored designs). I also used that opportunity to explain the difference between *lumens* output (something that everyone there was familiar with) and *lux* (which would be more related to the instructors' specific concern). My information was well-received and folks were comfortable enough to ask a few questions.

Some interesting things from the classroom session:

The instructors definitely preferred single mode lights with a rear momentary button, their reason being that if you drop your light it will immediately turn off and not continue to illuminate your position. No constant-on clicky switches!  Also, inadvertently changing modes during use was very undesirable as can well be expected.

One instructor demonstrated the usage of a lanyard; interestingly enough they had a 'take' on it that I hadn't run into before:
Not only did they recommend short lanyards (to facilitate the reestablishment of holding/utilizing the light after doing lights-off tasks such as reloading), but one demonstrated something I found very interesting: A small ring (it was actually a hand grenade pull ring) attached directly to the lanyard attachment point on the flashlight body. The instructor could have the ring around one finger, and when doing other tasks (such as reloading), the flashlight would dangle _just under_ the hand, maximizing readiness for subsequent use.

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On the range, they emphasized that immediately after you 'light up' and fire a couple of rounds (or even if you don't fire), after you turn off the light, *TAKE TWO LARGE STEPS TO EITHER SIDE*. Any opponent will most likely shoot where they last saw your light - needless to say you want to be anywhere but there.

Much was made about different handhold techniques, the "Overhand Grip" (i.e. the 'icepick' grip) and the "Base Switch Grip" (i.e. the 'cigar/syringe' grip) for the SureFire grip-ring-style lights. We trained with the 'Overhand-High', 'Overhand-Low', 'Harries', & 'Cigar/Rogers' as well as transitions between the different grip techniques. We did *a lot *of transitions during our live-fire training - fantastic practice. 

I'm not going to go into detail here about how to use the individual grip techniques. Although I now have some small experience in using these, I'm definitely not an instructor and do not want to give any impression that I am qualified to teach these. During the range session I did form a definite personal preference for the 'Overhand High' and 'Harries' techiques - they were the easiest for me to quickly and reliably illuminate the threat prior to firing.

One thing I liked about the class was that we practiced a number of the popular techniques, not just the ones that anybody felt were the 'best'. The instructors emphasized that while one particular technique might often work the best for an individual, we did need some familiarity with the other techniques; furthermore some techniques would work better than others in specific situations such as shooting from behind doorways or low cover.

We did an hour or so of training while it was still light so we could practice the relevant techniques *(supervised and in a safe fashion)* that we would be using once it got dark.
One aspect I particularly liked was intensive training on doing handgun reloads in the dark - taking the flashlight out of use to make both hands available for reloading, while keeping the eyes up and towards the threat.

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Some other memories of the class:

About halfway down the line, some poor soul was having an occasional difficulty with his multimode light - every once in a while I saw some strobing to my right. Handgun recoil, insufficient grip, or finger fumbling can easily interrupt the pressure on the 'on' switch, and a multimode light can easily change modes in this situation. I've been a firm believer in single mode lights (almost all of my P60 series SureFires are single mode) and my experience in this class reinforced that opinion.

Once it was dark, each of us illuminated our targets in sucession, while stating out loud what light it was so that others could see the illumination differences.
"*Oveready XP-G triple*" from station 2  It was gratifying to see my light not only completely light up my 10 yd target, but also the targets to the right and left as well.
*I cannot emphasize enough* how useful it was to have a broad beam with a resulting wide field of view - being able to see potential threats adjacent to your target instead of merely the tunnel vision you get with a traditional beam could quite literally save your life.

At one point during the 'night' phase, one instructor mentioned that one thing many of us needed to work on was to keep the light *on the target* during firing; they had noticed lights pointing up/down/whereever and not consistently directed for the best illumination of the potential threat. I was confident that the wide beam of my OR Triple was nearly always illuminating my target 100% and I could put most of my attention on evaluating the threat and making center-of-mass hits.


I can assure you that when you're trying to reload in the dark as fast as you can, kneeling down & hunched behind cover; you're cold and your hands are shaking and there is shooting up and down the firing line, it's a rather memorable experience. 


Bringing this back around to flashlights, while I found that manipulating my SF C2 was pretty easy, I found the classic 6Z body style to be the best: Not only was it slightly lighter (making grip transitions easier & less likelihood of dropping the light), but the slightly narrower body section made the flashlight easier to keep full control of at all times. The older non-lockout tailcap button was simply perfect: soft and wide, easy to activate and keep on during live fire.

To say that runtime wasn't important would be an understatement, as we only used our lights in ~2-3 second bursts.
I probably did less than 3 minutes of runtime for the ~4-5 hours we were on the firing range.

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It was an exceptional experience in every respect and I'm planning on taking it again next winter.
Any CPF'ers in Oregon, if you're interested in taking the class next November, please let me know as it would be fun to meet up.
BTW there are a couple of prerequisite classes for this, so sign up early if you don't want to be disappointed. 

It was one thing to know some of the relevant illumination aspects in a theoretical manner beforehand, but being able to train with a variety of these techniques in a safe manner while supervised by highly-qualified OFA personnel was an outstanding opportunity.

Thanks for reading,
Kestrel


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## scout24 (Jan 3, 2014)

Great narrative, Kestrel. Could you perhaps post a picture of a similar setup to the instructor's lanyard with retaining ring in hand? No grenade pull pin ring needed, maybe a keychain? I'm just trying to get a visual of how this works. Thanks for posting!


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## cland72 (Jan 3, 2014)

Excellent write up! I'd also like to see what this grenade ring grip looked like. I wonder if it is similar to the Raven Concealment Surefire Clip?


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## Kestrel (Jan 3, 2014)

Thanks folks, I'll try to put something together to illustrate that at some point. Just imagine wanting the ability to whip a grenade in and out of your palm if you need the dexterity to tackle some other task in the interim, that would be the general idea. 



Kestrel said:


> [...] A small ring (it was actually a hand grenade pull ring) attached directly to the lanyard attachment point on the flashlight body. The instructor could have the ring around one finger, and when doing other tasks (such as reloading), the flashlight would dangle _just under_ the hand, maximizing readiness for subsequent use.



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BTW, rubber grip rings are *AWESOME*, no matter how you're actually holding the flashlight. If you're putting pressure on the rear 'momentary' tailswitch with your thumb or palm, having a grip ring bearing against one of your fingers is a wonderful aid to consistent operation/manipulation of the light.

If your hands are cold or wet (or bloody? ), and you're trying to keep a secure hold on your light while you are firing a handgun, having that flashlight *stay right there* and not shift in your grip, no matter what, is a godsend.

It would be relatively easy to accidentally drop the light at a most inopportune time (to say that your hands are full would be an understatement ), and I found that the grip rings on my C2 and 6Z provided me extra confidence in manipulating my lights at all times.


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## TEEJ (Jan 3, 2014)

Yeah, grip rings are sweet, much easier that way.

Also, I find that just as you saw, and were instructed, that if you HAVE TO keep the light pointed at the target to see it well enough to aim at it, that's TWO things you have to worry about aiming.

Around here, the strong floody beams are what work best because you DON'T have to aim the light, just have it vaguely in the right direction...as a floody beam should have enough light to shoot with even if its at the ground, etc, unless the ranges get long, etc. It also increases your situational awareness, as you can also see where they might run for cover, who else might be there/making a move, where they threw the stuff they don't want to get caught with, etc.

The DIS-Advantage of the floody beam, esp with a lot of spill, is that it can inadvertently light up your compadres as well. Staggering your line so to speak can help avoid that effect...but, you are still lighting up where you might be expected to duck for cover, etc.

A floody beam with very little spill is therefore the most useful.

One school of thought is two steps to the side after the light goes off. The other school of thought is "as far away as you can get" as you don't actually know how accurate that return fire will be...and they may "miss" and hit you. 

The other is randomly alternating the altitude, so one time the light is over your head, the next is shooting prone from the ground, etc.


In the dark, the shooter uses the apparent height to estimate range, so a higher light is perceived as further away, etc. That throws their hold overs way up, etc. If the light is at ground level, and they last thought it was at waist height for example, the new position makes them perceive the ground as waist high, throwing their return fire into the dirt, etc.

That only works best without spill...and, esp well if when on, it temporarily blinds them. (Ever aim AT a light through a sight?)


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## moldyoldy (Jan 3, 2014)

Kestrel, 

ref your comment "About halfway down the line, some poor soul was having an occasional difficulty with his multimode light - every once in a while I saw some strobing to my right"

I am curious - Did those instructors have any comment on the use of a strobed flashlight? Yes, I did read the long thread on CPF about the police use of strobe. There are some very specific recommendations in that thread.

I know from my own experience that animals do not react to strobing, but those same animals do have problems with really bright lights, typically starting in the ~900 lumen area up to 2000+ lumens depending on distance. The animals (ie: nasty dogs) simply cannot see you even if they can smell you. Hence the informal recommendation to hold the light out at full arms length to either side if you are not sure what is going on and do not believe that you will need to employ lethal force. ie: the dog may charge the light source - where you are not.


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## TEEJ (Jan 3, 2014)

moldyoldy said:


> Kestrel,
> 
> ref your comment "About halfway down the line, some poor soul was having an occasional difficulty with his multimode light - every once in a while I saw some strobing to my right"
> 
> ...



True on the dogs, typically...but they tend not to charge the light at all. 

Strobe use is a separate issue, and you need training to use it properly. In a return fire scenario such as discussed, you would not typically be using it. Its more of a close range application, and, buys a moment's hesitation. If you know what to do in that moment, it works for you. If not, its better typically to not attempt it.

I WOULD recommend getting away from lumen based qualifications though, as lux is actually the only important aspect of the use in discussion...as all of it is lux based.


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## 880arm (Jan 3, 2014)

Nice write-up Kestrel. Thanks for sharing with us.

With regard to the ring you mentioned, was it anything like the Raven Concealment Clip? It's designed for SureFire lights but will fit others lights of similar sizes.

Some have simply used a large keyring such as this gentleman on YouTube. His use of the ring leans more toward using the light as a weapon so I won't embed the video here.


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## kelmo (Jan 3, 2014)

Kestrel said:


> ...One instructor demonstrated the usage of a lanyard; interestingly enough they had a 'take' on it that I hadn't run into before:
> Not only did they recommend short lanyards (to facilitate the reestablishment of holding/utilizing the light after doing lights-off tasks such as reloading), but one demonstrated something I found very interesting: A small ring (it was actually a hand grenade pull ring) attached directly to the lanyard attachment point on the flashlight body. The instructor could have the ring around one finger, and when doing other tasks (such as reloading), the flashlight would dangle _just under_ the hand, maximizing readiness for subsequent use...
> 
> Kestrel



Nice review Kestrel!

I bet you could use the pull pin off a fire extinguisher to get the same effect.

kelmo


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## moldyoldy (Jan 3, 2014)

TEEJ said:


> True on the dogs, typically...but they tend not to charge the light at all.
> 
> Strobe use is a separate issue, and you need training to use it properly. In a return fire scenario such as discussed, you would not typically be using it. Its more of a close range application, and, buys a moment's hesitation. If you know what to do in that moment, it works for you. If not, its better typically to not attempt it.
> 
> I WOULD recommend getting away from lumen based qualifications though, as lux is actually the only important aspect of the use in discussion...as all of it is lux based.



Agreed on the reaction of dogs to a very bright beam. They growl and put their head down with ears flattened, but neither I nor any of my acquaintances with high-lumen lights have experienced that they charged the light. However in theory those animals were all domesticated dogs. I no longer travel thru areas where feral dogs are a problem.

My use of lumens is simply to use the only easy value-number that the flashlight manufacturers print on the packages. Most flashaholic lights are well above the output of Target/Walmart/Costco/SamsClub specials.

I do agree fully that beam profile is signficant, and is not simply a 'how far does it throw' question.  However for the average John Q. Public to be carrying the EDC or pocketable light with the correct profile for some ocassion is nearly impossible. Even for specialized SAR activities I read many opinions that do not agree with my own limited SAR in northern Idaho. LEOs and EMS personnel can focus on specific uses since it is their job.


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## BillSWPA (Jan 3, 2014)

Excellent review, and it seems like a very worthwhile class.


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## nbp (Jan 3, 2014)

Very good writeup Kestrel! I don't have a handgun or do any low light shooting, but some of the points here are excellent to think about in general flashlight usage; from the shape and design of the light, to the UI, to the beam pattern. I think a lot of members will be able to use this information, especially those who may use weapons in this setting and are encouraged to take a similar class. Good stuff!


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## ganymede (Jan 4, 2014)

Excellent writeup Kestrel! I'm not some Tier 1 operator but the simplicity of a single mode light, momentary switch and cigar grip ring are the main reasons I love my C2s and Z2s! 

Thanks for sharing!


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## Justin Case (Jan 4, 2014)

Sounds like the instructors follow some of the low light doctrine from Thunder Ranch, e.g., the concern about clickies staying/jamming on when dropped and the use of the flashlight ring. The ring seems to be popularized by TR, and conceived by Tiger McKee. Did the class cover anything on low light clearing, reloading the pistol while retaining the flashlight, and integrating the flashlight with unarmed skills? Regarding low light clearing, it might be interesting to see what effect a bright, large flood beam might have on using something like Harries when clearing around the left side of cover for a right-handed shooter.


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## 880arm (Jan 12, 2014)

I had been thinking about getting one of the Raven Concealment flashlight clips and after reading this thread last week I went ahead and ordered one. It arrived Friday and I'm very happy with it. I never appreciated how much the ring would improve grip on the light and the ability to flip it out of the way when both hands are needed is just an added bonus. Thanks again Kestrel for sharing your experience.


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## cland72 (Jan 13, 2014)

How much did that run you 880?


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## TMedina (Jan 13, 2014)

I agree - excellent write-up!

Thanks for taking the time, Kestrel.

On a side note: have you tried the Raven clip as described above? Or attaching a split key ring through the traditional Surefire lanyard ring?


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## Bentonville (Jan 13, 2014)

Great review of your experience. I really enjoyed reading it and I have a lot to think about from your experience. I hope I can find a similar class here in NC. 
Thanks for posting.


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## Justin Case (Jan 13, 2014)

TMedina, I would never use something like a key ring to emulate the Tiger ring. IMO, you are just asking for a nasty degloving injury. I'd use a soft grommet or thick o-ring.


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## 880arm (Jan 13, 2014)

cland72 said:


> How much did that run you 880?



$14.99 + $5.85 shipping. The price isn't that bad but I hated to pay that much for shipping.



Justin Case said:


> TMedina, I would never use something like a key ring to emulate the Tiger ring. IMO, you are just asking for a nasty degloving injury. I'd use a soft grommet or thick o-ring.



+1

If the metal ring is large enough it probably wouldn't cause degloving but it could certainly cause bone or ligament damage if things went wrong. It would also be much less comfortable than an O-ring.

To avoid taking this thread too far off course I have started a new thread about the Raven Concealment clip.


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## tobrien (Jan 22, 2014)

posting to subscribe to this and read it tomorrow. it looks good!


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## prop (Jan 25, 2014)

Excellent write-up. I enjoyed your post very much and there were some great pointers in there.

I carry a Z2 on duty and I must admit, that I never got the hang of the cigar grip. I don't know if it's the size of my hand or placement of rubber rings, but every time I point my gun with the Z2 in the cigar grip the light points to the right (right handed shooter). Adjusting my grip so the light is dead center on the target doesn't feel natural. I've tries adding/removing rubber rings, but it just didn't work to a satisfactory point for me.

I prefer switching between the Harries grip or neck index when searching buildings etc. I attempt to turn on the light for short periods, turn it off and move, turn it on again and so forth, to.throw off a offender contemplating a attack. I realise the neck index isn't optimal but I shoot pretty accurately with it. I've recently bought a R1 Lawman. Once it gets here I'll experiment with a stance where I use the thumbactivated switch.

The FBI published a study about law enforcement officers killed/attacked in the line of duty. A couple of incidents happened as the officer was in pursuit/searching with a flashlight. The offenders stated that all they had to do was point at the light and shoot. All the more reason to use the light on, off and sidestep method. I'll see if I can snap a pic of the section and put it up here.


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## prop (Jan 25, 2014)

Uploaded via tapatalk so i hope they show up fine. Let me know if they don't and I'll do it via Flickr.


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## tobrien (Jan 25, 2014)

prop said:


> Excellent write-up. I enjoyed your post very much and there were some great pointers in there.
> 
> I carry a Z2 on duty and I must admit, that I never got the hang of the cigar grip. I don't know if it's the size of my hand or placement of rubber rings, but every time I point my gun with the Z2 in the cigar grip the light points to the right (right handed shooter). Adjusting my grip so the light is dead center on the target doesn't feel natural. I've tries adding/removing rubber rings, but it just didn't work to a satisfactory point for me.
> 
> ...



have you checked out the surefire grip ring kit? that might be a huuuuuuuge help for your usage. it's got three different styles it comes with and, if you'd like, you can have two of mine.


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## prop (Jan 25, 2014)

tobrien said:


> have you checked out the surefire grip ring kit? that might be a huuuuuuuge help for your usage. it's got three different styles it comes with and, if you'd like, you can have two of mine.



Thanks, i really appreciate it :thumbsup:

I havent received my Lawman yet, but when i do, ill probably retire my Z2. If not, ill throw you a PM and ill send something your way too for the grip rings.


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## dss_777 (Jan 25, 2014)

Great discussion! What is the training staff's position on weapon mounted lights?


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## tobrien (Jan 25, 2014)

prop said:


> Thanks, i really appreciate it :thumbsup:
> 
> I havent received my Lawman yet, but when i do, ill probably retire my Z2. If not, ill throw you a PM and ill send something your way too for the grip rings.


gotcha, let me know! specifically, I have the finger loop one for you and the one where the thing sticks out (horrible description i know)


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## TMedina (Jan 27, 2014)

prop said:


> ill probably retire my Z2.



If you do retire it, there is a pretty enthusiastic market for the Z2s.


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## Kestrel (Feb 14, 2014)

Justin Case said:


> Sounds like the instructors follow some of the low light doctrine from Thunder Ranch, e.g., the concern about clickies staying/jamming on when dropped and the use of the flashlight ring. The ring seems to be popularized by TR, and conceived by Tiger McKee. Did the class cover anything on low light clearing, reloading the pistol while retaining the flashlight, and integrating the flashlight with unarmed skills? Regarding low light clearing, it might be interesting to see what effect a bright, large flood beam might have on using something like Harries when clearing around the left side of cover for a right-handed shooter.



Those are all good points; this class was an introductory class in this regards so we didn't really go over those. Some good things to think about though.



dss_777 said:


> Great discussion! What is the training staff's position on weapon mounted lights?


They did specifically mention those. Their thoughts is that they can be useful, but were in no way a substitute for a handheld light. Two big issues, the inability to illuminate something without sweeping it with your muzzle, and providing an opponent an easy center-of-mass target.

My particular angle is that I have a sinful number of SureFire flashlights but don't really have any interest in weapon lights.

Thanks everyone for the interest,

Edit: and I can't imagine retiring a Z2, as my comparable 6Z turned out to have the best form factor for this sort of use out of all my lights.

One other thought, I do recall fumbling (& nearly dropping) my C2 once or twice that evening, and I feel strongly that the extra length of a 3-cell C or Z would definitely make this more likely when changing holds or reloading.


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## Justin Case (Feb 14, 2014)

A weaponlight is far more of a must-have when you are dealing with a long gun, that generally needs two hands to operate effectively. Messing around with a handheld light while trying to run a pump shotgun, for example, can get ugly very quickly. The benefit of a beam with a decent spill brightness and size also becomes that much more apparent. You don't necessarily have to put the beam right on something to see what's going on, which helps to avoid violating Rule 2.

Regarding dropping a handheld light, IMO the CONOPs for using a handheld light is that you have the time to retrieve the light, so you also ought to have the time to spend the extra few seconds to lash up the lanyard.


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## BillSWPA (Feb 15, 2014)

Whether there is time to use the lanyard will be situation dependent. While I would definitely have one on a boat or other place where dropping the light could mean permanent loss, it causes more problems than it solves for EDC. 85% of all problems will occur outside the home, so EDC capability is important. I have seen circumstances where there was a need to illuminate something quickly, partly to determine whether going for the gun was called for.

In my own training, I have simply put the light back into its pouch to reload.

Inside a building, there is usually no way to avoid illuminating oneself. Once you activate the light, everything, including you, is illuminated. As pointed out above, using the spill to illuminate areas where you do not want to point your gun can be effective. If I were buying something for home defense, it would most likely be weapon mounted. Mounting the light on the gun simplifies things greatly.


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## Justin Case (Feb 15, 2014)

CONOPs for any piece of equipment depends on what you envision the environment of use to be. Not sure where you get your 85% figure of fraction of problems (however that's defined) will occur outside the home. Sure, you could encounter a situation where you need to deploy your flashlight ASAP, but again these envisioned environments depend on the person who is doing the envisioning. I can easily envision that if the person had been paying a bit more attention to his surroundings and to the cues, he would not have been taken by surprised and been put in such a time-constrained situation.

Regardless, my lanyard is a piece of elastic cord that tucks away easily and getting it over the wrist takes a simple stretch. It couldn't amount to more than a second extra time to use. In the same time it would take to move off the X while deploying the light, I can get the lanyard fixed in place.


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## moldyoldy (Feb 15, 2014)

prop said:


> <snip>
> 
> The FBI published a study about law enforcement officers killed/attacked in the line of duty. A couple of incidents happened as the officer was in pursuit/searching with a flashlight. The offenders stated that all they had to do was point at the light and shoot. All the more reason to use the light on, off and sidestep method. I'll see if I can snap a pic of the section and put it up here.



That recommendation for the sidestep method matches what I was taught in the military: Shoot and move! Under no circumstances remain in your initial position once hostilities are initiated. Standing in one location and firing just makes you an easy target, unless you are firing from a concealed position, or from the side of a barricade such as a tree/house corner. Otherwise always hold the light out to the side if possible.

Yet per commentary from citizens attending CC classes offered by the local police, they are shown the various grips which put a weapon and light in close proximity to each other, if the light is not mounted on the weapon. However nothing was said about moving after shooting. Maybe the Officers did not want to overload the citizens with what happens after they fire. I strongly recommended to a doctor that he use a pressure switch on a light on his shotgun and move after a shot to avoid becoming a target at night. His concealed handgun has no light.

In my case, I often use a light of ~900++ lumens held off at arms length to the side when investigating strange sounds outside, especially in my back yard. My house borders on a large wooded area where poachers too often harvest various animals at night.


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## BillSWPA (Feb 15, 2014)

Justin Case said:


> CONOPs for any piece of equipment depends on what you envision the environment of use to be. Not sure where you get your 85% figure of fraction of problems (however that's defined) will occur outside the home. Sure, you could encounter a situation where you need to deploy your flashlight ASAP, but again these envisioned environments depend on the person who is doing the envisioning. I can easily envision that if the person had been paying a bit more attention to his surroundings and to the cues, he would not have been taken by surprised and been put in such a time-constrained situation.
> 
> Regardless, my lanyard is a piece of elastic cord that tucks away easily and getting it over the wrist takes a simple stretch. It couldn't amount to more than a second extra time to use. In the same time it would take to move off the X while deploying the light, I can get the lanyard fixed in place.



One situation I had in mind involved walking through a doorway and being surprised by what was on the other side. If you have no reason to suspect a problem, then how does being aware help you know in ad advance what is on the other side of a door?

If you are moving to get off the X in response to something you saw or heard you have already identified your threat and do not need your light. If you still need to determine what is out here and where it is, how do you know which direction to move?

The 85% number has been cited many times by many sources, but I believe the original number was from the US Dept. Of Justice.


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## Justin Case (Feb 15, 2014)

I actually don't blithely walk through doorways in public spaces, but I agree that there will always be a non-zero chance you are taken by surprise. I just disagree on the proportions on when you have the time to lash up vs no time and this 85% figure for some sort of undefined "problem". Since my lanyard does not interfere with my use of my EDC light, I don't see any downside in having the lanyard. Maybe any extra piece of kit will bother someone else, but it's hard for me to envision that this would constitute the vast majority. In contrast, I can see how the very bulky 550 cord lanyards with cord locks would be a hassle. I don't like them myself, which is why I went to an elastic cord lanyard. Just a simple knotted loop.


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## BillSWPA (Feb 15, 2014)

The elastic cord does seem like it could be a good idea. If you can have something that doesn't get caught on things as you are walking around, or seem out of place in professional environments, then I am all for having the option of using it. For my modes of carry, it would get in the way more than anything else, and all of my training has been without it.

The 85% is nothing more than the percent of problems occurring outside the home as compared to inside the home. Within each of these subsets, the range of problems one could face, and likelihood of each, is more difficult to quantify.


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## dss_777 (Feb 15, 2014)

Does "turn off the light and move" present a problem in seeing where you're moving to? do you worry about running into things, or falling over them if you're moving in the dark? Seems it'd be even worse since your eyes are no longer dark adapted after you just flashed a very bright light at someone...

Not my area of expertise, just wondering...


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## BillSWPA (Feb 15, 2014)

Yes, that could be a problem, but less of a problem than getting shot because the light was left on too long. Most of your movement should be done with the light off. Hopefully you saw enough while the light was on to have a decent idea where and how to move.


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## SoCalDep (Feb 16, 2014)

You don't get shot because the light was left on. You get shot because your ability to react was beaten by the suspect's surprise attack or a disparity in the OODA loop process between you and the attacker. It is almost never so dark that we "disappear" when the light goes off. I see no value in firing a couple shots and quickly turning the light off without confirming the suspect is down...If we KNOW someone is trying to kill us, our priority should be to stop that immediate, known threat. Thus, one would hope the initial suspect is no longer a primary threat. If they are, why in the world would we take away our advantage and initiative to turn the light off if we can place accurate rounds on target? We can still move just as we do in bright light conditions, which has much more influence on the outcome than manipulation of the light. The primary purpose of turning the light off is secondary threats...This is even more unrealistic because again, it is rarely so dark that we can't see a person and movement with lights off...This is particularly true for a secondary threat that didn't have the light applied directly to them. All we do is take away our situational awareness while allowing the suspect to surprise us with a new volley of gunfire. 

Many low-light tactics utilize one of two models...a military model which assumes not only operating from longer distances, in more complete darkness, but also a team environment and advanced, continual training. There is nothing wrong with training in advanced concepts if one is willing to put in the time to practice to preserve and develop those skills, but one must remember that situations dictate tactics and tactics dictate techniques, so what works in a specific military situation may lack appropriateness for a home defense or law enforcement situation. 

The second, and even more dangerous situation is the unproven defensive model. In a gunfight, offense IS the best defense. Look at any youtube video or if you have access, many of the commonly cited law enforcement videos of gunfights. Those who win the fight are not those who hide...They are the ones who take the fight to the adversary. The FBI technique, while having a place in searching, is a woefully inadequate fighting technique (that simply falls apart in a real fight) developed in the hope that it's use will avoid the user getting shot. I prefer the user not getting shot because they utilized proper FIGHTING techniques rather than a defensive technique sacrificing ability to shoot to hopefully avoid getting shot. 

This is not to detract from anything in this thread. I have attended training from multiple venues that utilize and advocate these techniques and have learned much from them. I have also attended training that has different views and have my own experience, the experiences of thousands of law enforcement officers, military personnel that I've worked with, and thousands of hours of research and personal practice and experimentation.

I would say to take as much training as possible, from as many varied instructors as possible, and then take what works. Don't take any one instructor's techniques or tactics as gospel...Heck...Don't take what I'm saying here as gospel...Try it for yourself. If bad things happen, you will likely be the only one there to save your life, so don't let anyone tell you what is "the way" for you.


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## BillSWPA (Feb 16, 2014)

I would add to the above that at least some of the training needs to be force on force training with Simunitions or Airsoft.


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## Unicorn (Feb 17, 2014)

The problem with holding a light out to the side is that it's harder to light up the target and shoot at the same time. It makes sense for some uses, perhaps searches, but not for actually shooting. Also inside normal rooms or buildings, it's pointless. The reflection will light up the entire room anyway. Even the refletion outdoors if the light is bright enough will do so if not in wide open spaces and the light isn't pointed at the ground.

While the light is flashed, you can get a mental image of what is there when you move. Usually though, it's not truly pitch black, and hopefully your opponent if there, will be more blinded by your light than you are.

Multimode lights are fine... if the function switch is separate from the on off switch. I like the way the Surefire R1 is set up. The rear switch is high, the side switch can be low, med, or high. You cn also set the rear switch to strobe with three presses if you wish. The Newer Fenix lights that have a separate mode switch is nice also. No more trying to hal press a switch or remembering to turn the head to get to turbo.


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## TMedina (Feb 18, 2014)

The "shooting at the light" theory is part of why the FBI teaches (taught?) the handgun/flashlight technique - the light in an icepick grip held away from the body, the handgun online in, obviously, the other hand.

The trade-offs are fairly obvious: Muscle fatigue in your shoulders/arms, poor weapon control, difficulty aiming the light as it's held away from your LoS. The pro being: the flashlight is off-line from your body.

The majority of handgun/flashlight techniques are designed with the idea of being able to provide maximum handgun control - usually by bracing, but sometimes with a two-handed grip. Another benefit comes from being able to better aim the flashlight at a specific target. And, accordingly, the drawback is: the flashlight is now between your body and the hostile.

https://www.floridacarry.org/education/self-defense/23-using-a-tactical-flashlight


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## dss_777 (Feb 18, 2014)

I just don't understand this obsession with "getting the light away from your body so you don't get shot." Especially because doing so diminishes control of of an already difficult-to-control weapon in a very high stress situation. This technique might have a smidgeon of relevance for active LEOs, but is infinitesimally relevant to the rest of us. IMNSHO. 

Any serious/professional shooter who can is going to weapon mounted lights. Pat Rogers teaches a neck hold for hand-held lights, as it is the most stable platform to get the light where you need it and interferes the least with the already-degraded effectivness of a one-handed hold. He reminds us that the whole point is fighting with a gun. It's not dancing around like a warrior prince doing some gun kata. 

I like Pat Rogers.

I think it's supposed to go something like this: "Turn light on. See the threat. Process the threat. Rinse. Repeat. Follow the threat down. Turn off light."

FWIW, guess where people tend to aim when they see a shooter holding a gun? That's right... at the gun. Maybe we should be holding the gun out to the side, too...


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## BillSWPA (Feb 18, 2014)

I like the neck hold as a _shooting_ position because it enables me to put hits on target quickly and easily, more so than any other hold.

Weapon mounted lights are great if we are discussing home defense, or if your circumstances allow you to wear a holster that will carry one. Most of the time, I am in business casual dress, so a weapon mounted light is often not an option. Besides, what if you find yourself in a situation where searching with a holstered gun is your best option?

Lights get shot at, and take hits, quite often in force on force training exercises. Even if there is enough light to see the person holding the light otherwise, when the light is shining in your face, particularly if it is strobing, it can be hard to see much else. This is why I prefer the FBI hold as a search position. I have practiced drawing the gun and light simultaneously to this position, illuminating the target, and placing hits on the target, and it isn't that difficult with practice. I still prefer the neck hold as a shooting position, but as a search position, where I do not know if someone is there, how many are there, where they are, etc., I want the light away from my body.


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## TMedina (Feb 19, 2014)

dss_777 said:


> I just don't understand this obsession with "getting the light away from your body so you don't get shot." Especially because doing so diminishes control of of an already difficult-to-control weapon in a very high stress situation. This technique might have a smidgeon of relevance for active LEOs, but is infinitesimally relevant to the rest of us. IMNSHO.



Heh. You'll notice that only one organization has ever contemplated the idea. Every other flashlight/handgun technique with the exception of the "neck hold" emphasizes handgun and flashlight in close proximity or contact for weapon control and flashlight aiming.

FWIW, I have never been confident enough in my ability to hit a target while shooting with one hand unsupported, unless it was the broad side of a very big barn.


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## SG688 (Feb 21, 2014)

Not that it matters, but for historical interest -- I dug in my files and found an article on the grenade ring lanyard by Garbriel Suarez in 2002.


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## BillSWPA (Feb 22, 2014)

Shooting with a handheld light is largely one handed shooting, regardless of which hold you use. Any of the 2-handed techniques work best with only light pressure applied to the shooting hand by the support hand.

Many other situations could require one handed shooting. If I am out with my kids, I may have to control them with one hand to keep them in as safe a place as possible while shooting with the other hand.


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## SoCalDep (Feb 22, 2014)

Yes, but it's not simply about support...It's about creating a consistent index between the light and the gun allowing the minimal amount of time to correlate the light with the muzzle. Of course, situations dictate tactics and tactics dictate techniques, so if the situation requires me to use my support hand to do something else I'll either need to use (and know how to use) a weapon-light with one hand - either with a pressure switch or training to activate the toggle - or simply shoot in less than ideal lighting conditions. 

We train in all of these scenarios...Two-hand hand-held light techniques, two-hand weapon-light techniques, one-hand weapon-light techniques and shooting in darkness with and without night sights. I won't even go into lasers! 

This is one reason I really like low-light tactics and training... We generally don't get enough of it...law enforcement and non-law enforcement, and particularly due to advances in technology in flashlights, weapon-lights, lasers, and tactics in general (everyone having video access to shootings to analyze what works and what doesn't) the ability to effectively fight in low or changing lighting conditions is somewhat underdeveloped. Add things like current NVG and IR technology and tactics employed in current military operations and there is a world out there in the dark and we've barely scratched the surface!


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## NavyDavy (Feb 23, 2014)

Were you able to any diminished light shooting using just night sites and no flash lights?


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## SoCalDep (Feb 25, 2014)

NavyDavy said:


> Were you able to any diminished light shooting using just night sites and no flash lights?


I assume you're asking the OP regarding his class, but I've done a fair amount of shooting with just night sights (and with irons/no tritium) ... Did you have a question about it?


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## NavyDavy (Feb 25, 2014)

SoCalDep said:


> I assume you're asking the OP regarding his class, but I've done a fair amount of shooting with just night sights (and with irons/no tritium) ... Did you have a question about it?


No I was just curious if the OP had the oppotunity. I have a little experience myself as a firearms student and instructor.


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## Kestrel (Apr 17, 2014)

NavyDavy said:


> Were you able to any diminished light shooting using just night sites and no flash lights?


Hello, I missed some of the more recent comments on this thread. Sorry for the delay in replying. 

Relatively few people in the class had night sights, and I didn't as well.

However, you are asking a very good question, and it reminded me of one exercise we did in the class.

We did a small amount of shooting without using our lights at all, and 10-yd accuracy naturally suffered somewhat, although not near enough to make any real difference in outcomes.

However, I did learn something new related to that; without direct illumination of the targets (i.e. not using our flashlights), the muzzle blast of my first shot backlit my front sight rather well, permitting greater accuracy on the barely-visible target with the very rapid subsequent shots. Overall, my accuracy was more than sufficient for the short-range engagements we were training for, and I did not feel to have any significant disadvantage by not having night sights.

Plus, maybe a revolver purist shouldn't put night sights on a classic pre-lock S&W 60-10 anyhow. 


BTW, thanks all for carrying on the conversation in my absence.


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## P_A_S_1 (Apr 17, 2014)

Kestrel said:


> Plus, maybe a revolver purist shouldn't put night sights on a classic pre-lock S&W 60-10 anyhow.
> 
> .




Combat reloads with a revolver in one hand and a flashlight in the other are tough. Still, J frames are quite nice, lots of fun. If your comfortable shooting unsupported you can hold your light in your non shooting hand and extend that arm straight out and high, placing the light as far from your person as possible. Serves the same purpose as the side steps in regards to an adversary targeting you via your light.


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