# bulbs & suggestions for new M6 shootout?



## 325addict (Jun 29, 2010)

After some fine emails between me and DM51, I finally decided I will be doing a new "M6 shootout" in the style of the excellent thread DM51 made a while ago. This one is still by far the best until now, and has been called "the Bible of the M6"... which it is!

This thread, it may be clear, will be hard to improve upon. Sure, there have been new lamps since then, but.... that's about it! More room for improvement? I can hardly think WHAT could be improved!!

So, it may be time other members chime in, maybe they miss some bulbs and/or other things?

To start, I'll use as many different lamps as I can get my hands on. These ones will surely be in the shootout:

*Original Surefire lamps:*
- MN15 ("X-LOLA")
- MN20 (standard LA)
- MN 21 (with two old ICR 18650s - reducing voltage under load to 6.4V)

*Lumens Factory lamps:*
- HO-M3T
- EO-M3T
- IMR M3T
- HO-M6R
- IMR-M6

*Welch Allyn lamps:

*_2-cell:_
- WA1111 (6V / 3.35A / 465Lm / 100h)
- WA1164 (6V / 3.28A / 301Lm / 2500h)
- WA1274 (7.2V / 2.77A / 553Lm / 40h)
- WA1336 (6V / 0.64A / 56Lm / 525h)

_3-cell:_
- WA1108 (12V / 1.0A / 267Lm / 40h)
- WA1166 (11.6V / 1.97A / 704Lm / 20h)
- WA1185 (9.6V / 3.15A / 817Lm / 50h)
- WA1326 (12V / 0.8A / 171Lm / 1000h)
- WA1331 (9.6V / 1.93A / 534Lm / 35h)

*Carley lamps:*
- 809 (10.5V / 1.2A)
- 871 (11.5V / 0.63A)
- 926 (11.5V / 0.83A)

*Fivemega lamps:
*FM1909 (11.5V / 5.5A / ~2000Lm / 20 or 30h)

2-cell lamps will be fitted in an M6, using a Mdocod 2X 18650 holder and two AW IMR batteries.
3-cell lamps will be fitted in a Fivemega 3X 18650 Megalennium with KT-4 head, and will have 3X AW IMR 18650s in it.

Does anybody know a lamp I forgot about?? Or any other suggestions, OTHER than already covered in DM51s thread?

Then... please post them here! I have several months to prepare, so there is some time 


Timmo.


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## Justin Case (Jun 29, 2010)

SF N62


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## 325addict (Jun 29, 2010)

I just looked at the SF site, but... no N62! Did I look over it?

Timmo.


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## Justin Case (Jun 29, 2010)

It's an old, out-of-production bulb that came with the 12ZM.

Another bulb to try is the MN60. For completeness, you could also repeat the tests that DM51 did for the MN16 and MN61.


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## 325addict (Jun 29, 2010)

@ Justin: I just want to test Li-ion compatible bulbs, and ALL SF HOLA's are in fact not compatible, they will be overdriven severely. The only one I'll include is the MN21, as this one is an original M6 lamp. I have a set-up with two old Lithium-Cobalt cells, that will sag under the brutal load of the MN21 to around 6.4V which is just about right.

Timmo.


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## Justin Case (Jun 29, 2010)

N62 was meant to run on 4x123A. it is claimed to be a ~7.6V/3.7A bulb, so 2xLi-ion can be appropriate for this bulb. In fact, I've run it on 2xAW17670.

Both the MN60 and MN61 (which DM51 tested) are meant to run with 4x123A. True, DM51 found that the MN61 was seriously overdriven on 3xLi-ion, so the MN60 also probably would be way overdriven.


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## DM51 (Jun 29, 2010)

I am greatly looking forward to this! It is high time someone else did an up-to-date M6 thread, and Timmo has acquired all the knowledge necessary to do a great job. He has also been experimenting with far more combinations than I did, and I am confident that his project will become _THE_ definitive M6 shootout.

It will be well worth considering including wquiles's PhD-M6 programmable hotwire driver for some of the tests. This will fior the first time make it a realistic proposition to use some bulbs that are otherwise very prone to instaflash with rechargeable packs, such as the MN21.


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## 325addict (Jun 30, 2010)

The concept of this regulated driver looks very nice indeed....

I only see one disadvantage over my setups: it uses 17670 batteries.... these have a low capacity (a higher internal resistance is no problem anymore, the regulator will take care of this).
The limit would be 3.2 Amps, (= 2C) so for a few lamps, it cannot be used (WA1111, WA1164, WA1185 is borderline, MN21 and FM1909 are overloading the cells in an unacceptable way...).

It would, however, be a perfect way to have a CONSTANT voltage for all the other bulbs I want to use :thumbsup: 

Here, we would however introduce a problem: I would test the lamps with less current draw with the regulator, and the others with IMR cells, which is not a fair comparison. It will create an (unknown) difference once switched to the IMR cells...

The plan was, to partially deplete sets of IMR-cells, so they are in the relatively stable "middle region" of the discharge curve, in addition to use these cells ONLY at the moment the pictures will be taken - for test- and alignment purposes, I will carry extra cells.
For this moment, I think this is still the most honest way to compare all those lamps with each other.
I will have one Mdocod battery holder with 2X IMR batteries, and for the Megalennium I'll use another set.

I'll consider the "why not both - one is none, two is one" CPF approach however!
Why not compare, for instance, an MN20 on 2X Li-ion with the 7.4V regulated voltage you can get from the regulator?
This, in a 15 minute distance from each other. 
1. a picture right from the start,
2. the same, 15 minutes later,
3. and again, 30 minutes from the start....
4. finally, after 45 minutes from the start.

I can see the result already.... the 2X 18650 setup dim more and more in time, while the output of the regulated one will be rock solid... until the battery protection kicks in!

Due to the PWM, a run time of around 50 minutes could be available with 3X 17670 as a supply, when output is 7.4V  

So, I'll seriously consider buying such a regulated battery pack... 


EDIT/addition: 

MN60 will be a 10V lamp. It is a LOLA meant for 4X CR123A. These batteries will sag to around 2.5V each on a LOLA, so total will be around 10V which is too high for a 2-cell setup, but too low for a 3-cell setup.
MN61 is a HOLA for 4X CR123A, these batteries will sag to 2.2 .... 2.3V each under this fairly brutal load. This lamp should have a voltage of 8.8 to 9.2V which is, unfortunately, unsuitable for either a 2-cell or a 3-cell setup.
I looked at them before, I wanted to include them, but I rejected them because of their non-compatibility with any Li-ion setup....

Timmo.


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## mdocod (Jun 30, 2010)

Hi Timmo,

The RMS power consumption from the pack is the important part, not the peak current during each pulse of the pulsing regulator. The PhD can run the MN21 perfectly fine. In fact, the current peaks are hitting 7+ amps when driving the MN21, but the duty cycle is down around 50%. 

We are getting 15-25 minutes runtime in testing. It's about a 2-3C load depending on the condition of the cells. Similar to people running the 18185 in many cases but it is important to keep continuous runs limited to a few minutes whenever possible for safety. 

The PhD will be able to very safely drive a huge list of lamps, and the 6.8V setting will allow one to run the SF HOLA lamps at a reliable, regulated and soft started drive level. 

Oh, and we are getting nearly 60 minutes on the MN20 

Now if we could just get someone to make a 4.5V 2AH 17670 cell we would be golden!!!

Cheers!
Eric


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## 325addict (Jun 30, 2010)

Oh WOOOWW! Now I'm DEFINITELY in for one 

Yes, I calculated with the peak currents, but they are not so bad for a Lithium Cobalt cell as I've read somewhere, I now remember!

60 minutes for an MN20... this will be around the same for the best 2X 18650 setup (2X 2600mAh).

And the 6.8V setting for the HOLA's.... perfect 

Question: will it be possible, for me, to have a 6.0V lowest setting instead of the 4.8V one??

So now... the inevitable question.... WHEN will it be available 


Timmo.


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## mdocod (Jun 30, 2010)

Hi Timmo,

Very roughly, I'd estimate at least several weeks before any are for sale (maybe 3-6 weeks?). Don't hold me to it just keep your eyes peeled on that BST in the coming weeks. I am building a small batch of units to send to Will this week, but we have to put together a few "production beta" units and put them through the paces before we start selling them.

Eric


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## 325addict (Jun 30, 2010)

3 to 6 weeks? NOOOO problem :thumbsup:

We won't have winter already by that time...

I'll patiently wait for them to be good enough for production!


Timmo.


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## ShineOnYouCrazyDiamond (Jun 30, 2010)

I want to preface my statement by saying that DM51s shootout is legacy, but in owning about 5-6 different KT4 heads (some which came with a M6 and some purchased separately) I have seen every thing in the reflector from nearly SMO with tremendous throw to VLOP to LOP to some heads which are almost MOP. The difference between heads can really change the throw of the M6 even with the same bulb.

If I may suggest to use the same KT4 head throughout the shootout to keep the results as consistent as possible.

Other than that, the MN16 is the only other bulb I am not seeing as being listed.


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## 325addict (Jul 4, 2010)

So, you mean with STOCK (unmodded) KT-4 heads there can be a huge difference? Until now, I didn't notice any difference between the two I have, but... I have to admit, I never compared them side by side!

If there are just the slightest suspicions about there being a difference between them, I will just use ONE head. Or better: I WILL use one head, period.

Thanks for this very important remark!

The MN16 is a HOLA and cannot be used with any Li-ion setup directly. When I have that regulator, things will change, and I will include it then...


Timmo.


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## gallagho (Jul 5, 2010)

Sounds like it's going to be a great thread. It would be good to see the Surefire M3LT thrown in to the mix for interest


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## ShineOnYouCrazyDiamond (Jul 5, 2010)

325addict said:


> So, you mean with STOCK (unmodded) KT-4 heads there can be a huge difference? Until now, I didn't notice any difference between the two I have, but... I have to admit, I never compared them side by side!
> 
> If there are just the slightest suspicions about there being a difference between them, I will just use ONE head. Or better: I WILL use one head, period.
> 
> ...



I have two head which are distinctly different at the moment. One is near MOP and the other VLOP. With same body and bulb and just changing heads you can get more throw or more spot. 

I'll take a few pictures and post this afternoon.


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## 325addict (Jul 5, 2010)

OK, I'm curious to find out more on these different reflectors...

@Gallagho: I'm afraid I have to pass here. To shed out $450,- to just take the comparison is just a little toooo much.
Besides that, it's a LED light :green:

I'm willing to buy that regulated 3X 17670 holder, in order to:
A: be able to test Surefire HOLAs
B: to have the best conditions to compare lamps. It is by far the most honest method, when all lamps have exactly the same voltage. This will only work for the 2-cell lamps however, the regulator cannot step-up the voltage.

I'll have to buy extra 17670s as well then 

This will involve some work and some good preparations, before driving into the woods 
The final result, I hope, is of the same quality as the mother of all M6 threads by DM51... but I immediately give in: this thread is SO good, it will be very hard to improve upon!

Status 07-05-2010: all lamps listed above, except four Lumens Factory lamps, are in. Lumens Factory lamps have been ordered a few days ago....
Still have to order the MN16. In the Netherlands, this one is nearly impossible to get. And... sellers in the US don't ship them outside of the USA....
Does anybody have one for sale???


Timmo.


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## ShineOnYouCrazyDiamond (Jul 5, 2010)

It's pretty hard to get a really good shot of the reflector, this is about the best I can do. The first one is a pretty heavy OP (maybe even more so that most of the KT4s I've owned. The second one appears to be a VLOP reflector and came from a slightly older M6 purchased. Most of the 5-6 other KT4 have been just a little less OP than the first on, but it is significant when it comes to a distance based showdown between lights.

If I put a WA1185 in the MOP reflector and a WA1111 in the VLOP (both focused perfectly), I can throw further with the dimmer light.


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## 325addict (Jul 5, 2010)

This IS indeed a difference 

I will go the safe route for the tests, and just use ONE head...


Timmo.


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## 325addict (Jul 8, 2010)

OK guys, the four Lumens Factory lamps just came in:






Already in were three original SF lamps:






And, in addition, several WA lamps and the FM1909 (Carley lamps not included in this picture):






EDIT: found the Carley lamps as well, and... the four Fivemega MN bi-pin adapters 






preparations are going well 


Timmo.


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## jtivat (Jul 8, 2010)

Send me a PM with your address I will donate an MN16 for the shootout.


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## 325addict (Jul 9, 2010)

@ Jtivat: PM sent. 

And: thank you very much indeed :thumbsup:


Timmo.


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## DM51 (Jul 9, 2010)

Timmo (and others) FYI, in case you have not yet seen this - Fivemega now has a prepay thread for a new run of FM 1909 bulbs.


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## 325addict (Jul 9, 2010)

@ DM51: thanks for the hint, but... I already have four of them (they are in one of the pictures).

Timmo.


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## jtivat (Jul 9, 2010)

325addict said:


> @ Jtivat: PM sent.
> 
> And: thank you very much indeed :thumbsup:
> 
> ...



Your PM's are full I can't send you one back.


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## 325addict (Jul 10, 2010)

I made some room... now you can 

Timmo.


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## jp2515 (Jul 10, 2010)

Can't wait to see the results from this test. Looks like the bulbs I've been eying are included (FM1909, LF & WA)

Ever since I got my larger SF M series lights (M3, M3T, M4) I've waded into the world of incandescent lights.


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## 325addict (Jul 11, 2010)

@jp2515: welcome in the world of quite powerful incans (I say "quite" because some people pack a 36V / 400W projection bulb into an elephant - THAT's _really powerful!_)

I have included ALL Lumens Factory lamps that fit the M6, except the one for the M4 due to incompatibility with any Li-ion setup (it will be underdriven by a 2-cell setup, and overdriven by a 3-cell setup).

I also included all Welch Allyn bulbs I could lay my hands on. This was some time consuming task, but they are in now! The WA1336 for example, came all the way from Canada and is one very fine low-output lamp. Unfortunately, WA discontinued it, so I bought 20 pieces. The same happened to the WA1166 which is also a very fine bulb. It is bright, (around 700 bulb lumens) and doesn't even consume 2 Amps. I have quite high expectations from it.

If you like REAL throw, then look no further than the Lumens Factory bulbs. Every time I try one, I'm just amazed AGAIN on how well they throw. One of my favorites is the HO-M3T which only draws 2.0 Amps (so will comfortably have one hour of runtime on 2X 18650 Li-Co cells) but throws like crazy! They also have a very nice, near-round hot spot. Finally, compare the price of LF to SF original lamps, and you'll quickly get the point in these :thumbsup:
In the meantime, I must have collected dozens of different LF bulbs, not one single lamp let me down until now 

But, as I see you have an M3, M3T and M4? I'm afraid, the FM1909 is not compatible with any of these. It requires a three-cell setup, and in fact, it requires a 3-cell IMR setup with 18650s. This is due to the enormous current draw (5.5 Amps!) and the high voltage (11.5V) of this bulb.
Best pick for modding with one of these lamps will be the M3T. This one accepts 2X 17500 Li-ion batteries, with 1100mAh. Maximum current draw is 2C, so 2.2 Amps.
The standard lamp MN15 will be no problem, it draws just 1.15 Amps.
For just about the best you'll get from these batteries, I think you may be very well served with the LF HO-M3T. Others will draw too much current. The MN20 and EO-M3T and WA1274 all go over the 2.2A limit.

Timmo.


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## mdocod (Jul 11, 2010)

Hi Timmo,

I agree 100% with your feelings about the HO-M3T. It's a absolute gem of a bulb and a pleasure to run. One of the best balances between output and runtime I have ever used. I'd take it over an MN20 any day, (less power consumption, basically the same maybe better output, and a much nicer beam profile).

The LF bulbs for the M3 are also really nice in my experience. The HO-M3 was my favorite mini-turbo lamp until I busted the filament when the light took a fall to a concrete surface. 

For bi-pin lovers, the GE787 is another one of those "sweet spot" lamps IMO.

Eric


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## 325addict (Jul 11, 2010)

Hello Eric,

here, you mention a NEW lamp for me... this GE bulb, where can I buy it best? Remember, I'm in the Netherlands... I didn't do any research on this one yet, maybe you know exactly where to get it from?

And the specs are..........??? 

Have to go climbing now, don't have time to investigate now 

Timmo.


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## Monocrom (Jul 11, 2010)

Can't wait to see how the other bulbs compare to my favorite set-up.

(LF HO-M6R running on 3x17670 in an mdocod adapter.)


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## mdocod (Jul 11, 2010)

Hi Timmo, 

The GE787 has often been the same bulb as what has been used in the magcharger for years.

Not sure what your best bet for acquiring one over there is, but bulbconnection.com here in the states carries them. If you have a place over there that sells magcharger bulbs then you could just grab one of those and give it a whirl. 

Eric


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## 325addict (Jul 11, 2010)

You mean the original MagCharger bulbs? I have at least six of them.
These are the "newer" ones, with the 51k or something Candlepower. 
They draw 1.66A from a 6V source, and I think they are driven pretty hard. 

I remember AW writing, that a C2 (or similar host) with Fivemega G4 Sun module and a MagCharger bulb was his favorite incan-pocket rocket.
So it will, from this point of view, survive 7.2V (IIRC, he powered this setup with 2X IMR 16340).

With the PhD driver, I think I'll give it a try. Thanks for this hint 

Timmo.


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## wquiles (Jul 11, 2010)

325addict said:


> Question: will it be possible, for me, to have a 6.0V lowest setting instead of the 4.8V one??


Sorry I am late to this very cool new thread, but let me address a couple of your questions on the PhD-M6:

- We are right now doing the field testing, and of course I am expecting a few bugs, or things that need improving - pretty normal for any project. Once we address those bugs, and/or note what combinations will work better than others, I will start a formal sales thread for the PhD-M6 pack. I want to try as much as possible to give you all a good and reliable solution - selling the pack before it is ready would be a disservice to all.

- I am right now considering custom orders for a small additional fee that would allow custom values, different than the "default" values of 4.9, 6.8, 7.4, and 10.8 volts RMS. So for example if you have no use for the lowest level of 4.9 volts and want 6.0 volts instead, I could do the extra work to create and maintain custom values, which I can keep track in my database since each pack has an unique serial number. 

Note that at either default settings, or new custom settings, the regulator does not have any way of knowing what bulb the user is using - the regulator can only try to regulate to the voltage setting at the DIP switch. Even at the factory settings, or new custom settings, we are still limited by the cells' capacity, and by the cells' built-in protection circuitry, both which are outside of the control of the actual regulator. This mens that there will always be some bulb/voltage combinations that will tax the cells more than the regulator can compensate for, so keep in mind that in our case (3x 17650) the cells are likely to be the weakest link.

Will


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## 325addict (Jul 12, 2010)

Hello Will,

I realized all you said in your answer.

Maybe it's a good idea for me to become a "beta-tester" also? After all, I have more than 20(!!) different lamps which are compatible with this regulator 

Of course, it should be functioning without major bugs, but all smaller bugs that may not be evident immediately, could come out at this stage.

I'm an electronics engineer myself, (mainly analog, I don't understand micro controllers, ALL of my circuits just can do without one) but the principles of regulation are well known to me. I designed numerous regulated power supplies which have less than 10 milli-Ohms internal resistance.


Timmo.


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## wquiles (Jul 12, 2010)

325addict said:


> Hello Will,
> 
> I realized all you said in your answer.
> 
> ...



Timmo,

I think including the PhD-M6 in your tests will be a great idea, but not before we are done with the Alpha phase of the field testing, and we fix the few bugs we have today. 

Once the pack goes to Beta quality, I will be more than happy to send you a prototype pack for evaluation/testing/etc..

I will keep you posted 

Will


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## 325addict (Jul 13, 2010)

Thank you very much Will! I'm very eager to see how good it is, how well it regulates, and how it drives the MN21 for instance... :thumbsup:

In the meantime I'll order three more AW 17670s....


Timmo.


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## wquiles (Jul 14, 2010)

325addict said:


> Thank you very much Will! I'm very eager to see how good it is, how well it regulates, and how it drives the MN21 for instance... :thumbsup:


Yes, the mighty MN21 bulb ... :devil:

The MN21 bulb worked with the older prototype custom battery carriers from Eric, but once we moved to the production carriers, the resistance on the connections dropped just enough that it then gave us a new problem. The MN21 would no longer come ON.

The problem is due to the extremely high current pulses when the filament is cold - these pulses are so high that they were shutting down the cells, due to the cells' protection PCB's seeing the cold filament as basically a "short circuit". Even with the soft-start routine that works fine for all other bulbs that we have played with (95%+ the bulbs already in your shootout), the routine did not work with the MN21.

I first tried making the startup time longer, which finally allowed the MN21 to turn ON without tripping the cells' short circuit protection circuitry, but then it meant that the bulb took a fairly long time to go fully ON. Talking to Eric back and forth about things to try let me to a hybrid soft-start logic that allows for a very slow initial phase for the soft-start (therefore tricking the cells into not shutting down) and then move to an accelerated soft-start sequence that allows the bulb to come ON much, much quicker. So I finally got the MN21 bulb working reliably with the PhD-M6 pack :naughty:

We still have to track down a few bugs/problems, but we are definitely making progress.

Will


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## DM51 (Jul 14, 2010)

Will, that is very interesting about the MN21. I believe the protection circuit current settings on AW's 17670s are the same as for his 18650s, but the MN21 was certainly pushing at the limit with the 18650s, needing 2 or more clicks to fire up (just before it went poof, lol).

It is amazing if you have managed to get your PhD-M6 to work properly with the MN21 so that it not only fires up OK but also doesn't suck the life out of the 17670s by draining them at 3C. Amazing!


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## 325addict (Jul 14, 2010)

I did some tests with different protected 18650s and different lamps, to see if they were compatible. 
The Wolf Eyes cells had their protection set on a fairly low value, as these were the only ones tripping with a WA1274 (drawing 2.77A @ 7.2V).

Exactly these cells were able to fire the FM1909 in a single click with an AW soft start in my Megalennium :thumbsup:

What a difference a soft start can make...

NOT starting a 2.77 Amp lamp without triple-clicking, or.... powering up a 5.5 Amp lamp in the first click 

(Note that the Wolf Eyes cells had the largest capacity (truly 2600mAh!!) and had the flattest discharge curve - and yes, I included the AW 18650-2600 in this test!)


Timmo.


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## wquiles (Jul 14, 2010)

DM51 said:


> Will, that is very interesting about the MN21. I believe the protection circuit current settings on AW's 17670s are the same as for his 18650s, but the MN21 was certainly pushing at the limit with the 18650s, needing 2 or more clicks to fire up (just before it went poof, lol).
> 
> It is amazing if you have managed to get your PhD-M6 to work properly with the MN21 so that it not only fires up OK but also doesn't suck the life out of the 17670s by draining them at 3C. Amazing!



Yes, working around the protection circuitry on the cells was certainly a challenge. With the PhD-M6 we are basically limited by the cells. Now, although I have managed to get the PhD-M6 to start the MN21 reliably with the AW protected cells, keep in mind that we are "still" taxing the cells heavily with the high current the MN21 demands. Eric is keeping track of all of the bulbs tested so far, and with that we will prepare some specific recommendations in terms of output, vs. load, vs. runtime.




325addict said:


> What a difference a soft start can make...


Absolutely. Pretty significant improvement over just plain Direct Drive 

By the way, this is your thread, so my apologies if I am bringing too much PhD-M6 related content here. I just try to sit back and answer questions about the PhD-M6 as appropriate.

Will


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## 325addict (Jul 15, 2010)

Hello Will,

you're absolutely welcome 

Your driver is the greatest news on the M6-front since ages... so it definitely belongs in this thread! You're welcome to post any progressions you make - so anyone can see when it is ready...

I'm definitely in for one, and I'm also in for beta-testing a unit with ALL the lamps I have. Please let me know in any way if you think I could be helpful in testing a unit.


Timmo.


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## TriChrome (Jul 15, 2010)

I hate to mention this in the incandescent section, but I would highly suggest running something like a NailBender MC-E LED tower against these powerful incandescents just so people can see the comparison, especially with the release of FiveMega's parallel Megalennium body being made specifically for LED's in M6's.

(or maybe it's just me needing to see a comparison of my HO-M6R versus a LED MC-E tower before I take the plunge and buy one


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## Justin Case (Jul 15, 2010)

An MC-E tower will have inferior hot spot lux vs even something like an SSC P4 tower, much less a high powered incan. And if you try to drive the MC-E at full power to get lots of lumens, IMO you will run into heat issues. The KT4 TH is not ideal in terms of heat sinking, probably due to the shock absorption system. See this, for example.

Your best bet for LED tower throw out of a KT4 is probably an XP-E or XP-G tower.

However, it still might be interesting to compare various LED towers (e.g., MC-E, P4, XP-G) to lower-powered bulbs like the N1, MN15, MN16, MN20, and HO-M3T regulated by the PhD-M6. IMO, there will be no comparison between any of these LED towers vs the big boy incans like the MN21.


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## TriChrome (Jul 15, 2010)

I'm sure that's true, but all I know is I bought the Lumens Factory HO-M6R (ran it on 3x18500's, then 3x18650's) because it's supposed to be one of the best for throw in the KT4 turbohead (second only to the overdriven MN21 with it's reduced bulb life). 

When I compare it to my JetBeam M1X with MC-E LED I see zero difference (and yes, I'm well aware of the "to seem twice as bright the light has to output 4x as much light" mantra).

...not trying to get off topic, but would just like to see a true M6 shootout with all options (many incandescent, and a couple LED towers) represented so people can make a better educated choice in how to mod their M6.


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## Justin Case (Jul 15, 2010)

TriChrome said:


> I'm sure that's true, but all I know is I bought the Lumens Factory HO-M6R (ran it on 3x18500's, then 3x18650's) because it's supposed to be one of the best for throw in the KT4 turbohead (second only to the overdriven MN21 with it's reduced bulb life).
> 
> When I compare it to my JetBeam M1X with MC-E LED I see zero difference (and yes, I'm well aware of the "to seem twice as bright the light has to output 4x as much light" mantra).


 
Apples-oranges comparison. The M1X's reflector is supposedly specifically designed for the MC-E. The KT4 reflector is not. You will undoubtedly get different performance out of the KT4 when using an MC-E LED tower vs the results for the M1X.

What I wrote before is based on my personal experience with about a dozen towers I've built, spanning SSC P4s, Cree MC-Es, and Cree XP-Gs. A P4 tower (P4 driven at 1000mA nominal) gives a tighter, brighter hot spot than a 2S2P MC-E tower (driven at 1227mA nominal, or ~610mA per die). The MC-E tower does produce a lot more overall lumens than the P4 tower. A WA1274/FM MN bi-pin adapter in an SF M6 driven by 2xAW18650 in an mdocod holder has a brighter hot spot than any of my LED towers. An MN21 smokes any of the LED towers. My LED Zep MZXR-7 KT4 mod is competitive with something like a WA1185.


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## wquiles (Jul 15, 2010)

TriChrome said:


> I hate to mention this in the incandescent section, but I would highly suggest running something like a NailBender MC-E LED tower against these powerful incandescents just so people can see the comparison, especially with the release of FiveMega's parallel Megalennium body being made specifically for LED's in M6's.
> 
> (or maybe it's just me needing to see a comparison of my HO-M6R versus a LED MC-E tower before I take the plunge and buy one



I feel the topic of comparing LED solutions to Incandescent solutions for the M6 is a valid topic. That being said, this topic should not be a discussion within a thread that specifically is looking at incandescent solutions for the M6.

What I would recommend is that you start a new thread, perhaps in the "General Flashlight Discussion" sub-forum. Something tittled like "Best rechargeable solution for the SureFire M6: LED or Incandescent" might be a good topic that should generate good discussion on what I consider a good topic of discussion.

Just my 2 cents as I feel we should stay on topic on this thread.

Will


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## 325addict (Jul 15, 2010)

@ TriChrome:

The best way to employ a LED in an M6 is probably to buy the Lumens Factory LED-head, either in single mode or three-mode available. These cost serious money, too much for me to just compare them to the rest. Due to their high color temperature, I would never use them after the shootout, and that's a shame... They have serious performance with 950 Lumens 
I am quite unfamiliar with all those LED-towers you mention. I'm a real incan-guy 
Can you tell me the possibilities, and what they cost? Are there any WARM-white (NOT neutral white, these are still TOO white to my taste) towers available?

You really _have _a point here, that LEDs should not be forgotten... but somewhere, the budget has been spent... I hope you can come up with some decent priced LED-towers :thumbsup:


Timmo.


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## Justin Case (Jul 15, 2010)

These LED towers are simply aluminum heat sinks shaped in a tower configuration, a la a stock SureFire MN20. The LED towers slide right into a KT4 TH -- basically an LED turbo tower drop-in. At the tower base, there is a driver cavity. At the top, the stem is solid and flat, allowing you to glue an LED to the top of the tower. A hollow channel runs up the center of the tower to run hookup wires from the driver to the LED.

The least expensive option is the nailbender LED tower, built with a netkidz tower kit. The sales thread shows warm XP-G tints being offered.

These towers are inexpensive because they use a low price kit and can use low cost 17mm drivers.

Another approach is to use an AW LED tower kit (when the Marketplace finally comes back up, search it for "AW tower sink"). These kits cost about twice as much as the netkidz kit. And the AW tower requires a 14mm driver, which are more expensive than 17mm drivers. To build an MC-E tower, it would cost about $44 (tower kit), $20-$30 (MC-E), $20 (14mm driver, such as the SOB1000), plus misc supplies like AA epoxy, hookup wire, and a copper spacer.


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## 325addict (Jul 15, 2010)

I'm seriously considering the warm white (3000K) single mode 4-14V model.

Timmo.


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## mdocod (Jul 15, 2010)

325addict said:


> ....What a difference a soft start can make...
> 
> NOT starting a 2.77 Amp lamp without triple-clicking, or.... powering up a 5.5 Amp lamp in the first click ....
> 
> Timmo.



Check this out: (rough numbers but it's still very cool)

Read the following really really fast, and then afterward, yell *"1.21 GigaWatts!!!!!"*

12.6V open circuit voltage of pack fresh from charger.

roughly 0.5 ohm total pack resistance (including cells/contacts/protection circuits etc) (this can vary depending on how much the pack is tightened down, which cells are used, etc etc)

MN21 is basically a dead short when cold, maybe 0.2 ohms with the springs and all. 

12.6V/0.7 ohm load = 18 amp peaks during the initial few pulses of the soft start algorithm. During the first few pulses, about 70% of the power dissipated is actually lost to pack resistance.

The lamp warms up, the load rises to 1.3 ohm (lamp) plus the pack (0.5 ohm) for a total of 12.6V/1.8Ohm = roughly 7 amp pulses. ~3.5V is lost to cell resistance, ~9V hits the bulb on each pulse. ~55% (rising as cells drain) duty cycle regulates the 9V X 7A to an effective ~34W RMS power output. 

Pretty amazing eh?

Eric


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## DM51 (Jul 15, 2010)

mdocod said:


> Pretty amazing eh?


Yes indeed - it is astounding - fantastic!



wquiles said:


> I feel the topic of comparing LED solutions to Incandescent solutions for the M6 is a valid topic. That being said, this topic should not be a discussion within a thread that specifically is looking at incandescent solutions for the M6.
> 
> What I would recommend is that you start a new thread, perhaps in the "General Flashlight Discussion" sub-forum. Something tittled like "Best rechargeable solution for the SureFire M6: LED or Incandescent" might be a good topic that should generate good discussion on what I consider a good topic of discussion.
> 
> Just my 2 cents as I feel we should stay on topic on this thread.


I completely agree with Will on this, with one minor difference that I'll mention in a minute. 

This thread should concentrate on Incan M6 solutions, as per post #1. There is more than enough material to discuss on this topic to occupy an extensive thread, which I anticipate this one becoming.

LED solutions for comparison, I agree, would be interesting. Some candidate set-ups have already been suggested by TriChrome and Justin Case. However, as Will says, please refrain from further discussion of LED solutions in this thread. 

I suggest one of you (TC or Justin) starts a new thread, emphasising that its purpose is to provide some suitable LED comparables to demonstrate alongside M6 Incan set-ups, and NOT to rekindle the old Incan vs. LED flame wars. You'll need to write post #1 with some care, to provide clear guidelines for members.

Where I differ slightly from Will is that I think that new thread will best be placed here in the Incan section alongside this one, rather than in General Flashlight discussion. Here, everyone will see what it is about and why it is here. Incan section regulars are mature enough, I think, to tolerate such a thread here if its purpose is explained properly. Its presence in the General section would be much more likely to be misunderstood and degenerate into the type of acrimony we know all too well.

Would one of you like to take a shot at it?


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## 325addict (Jul 16, 2010)

As always, David has a splendid idea! That thread would enable me to pick the right tower for a comparison, in addition, we can keep THIS thread clean to the original purpose.
Then, finally, when I decided upon tower XXX I can add this one to the list in this thread also.

Please, let the one who has most knowledge of these LED-towers start this thread... right here in the incan-section. Please list any you know, with price, lumens, where to buy, current draw @ XX Volt power supply, single- or multi-mode etc etc etc.

Timmo.


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## 325addict (Jul 21, 2010)

Nobody enough oomph to start this thread on LED-towers?? 

I don't want to pick the first that comes across, Murphy just DICTATES that another one (better, of course) would have been advised by someone who knows what's available 

I'm considering ANY WARM white LED-tower to make a good comparison with the incans.


Timmo.


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