# "Easiest" CCW Choices/Would like suggestions for concealed carry gun



## Dirty Bob (Nov 20, 2005)

I hear people all the time who have a permit but don't carry, because it's too hard. Perhaps they're trying to hide a S&W M29 with an 8-3/8" barrel...

There are two carry methods that I've found to be fairly easy, yet give me an effective caliber in a shootable platform.

1. Airweight .38 or .38+P in a pocket holster. The Scandium/Titanium/etc. are lighter, but you pay too much in recoil and price, IMHO. Drop it in the pants pocket, a SpeedStrip in another pocket, and go.

2. Steel or Airweight .38 or .38+P, with a Barami Hip-Grip, in the waistband, under an untucked shirt. I wear an undershirt to keep the gun off my skin. I like the appendix (right-front) position and find it fairly comfortable. I can hid a revolver easily under an untucked t-shirt and carry all day in any temperature.

I'm sure that there are other methods. Note that neither of my two methods requires an expensive belt/holster combo.

Anyone else?

Regards,
Dirty Bob


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## dbedit (Nov 20, 2005)

*Re: "Easiest" CCW Choices?*

I carry two weapons. I have a 1911 45 in my car and truck with extra clips. But in my pocket I always carry a NAA 22LR revolver with CCI Stingers. It is so small I can carry it in my front pocket without even noticing it is there with 5 shots plus the CCI ammo is enough to help me get out of harms way. One of the things I like about this gun is I can carry it hammer down between rounds so there in no chance of accidental discharge. I am also looking at a R9s in a 9mm to bring me to the level of firepower I feel I need to have in a Self defense situation. But a grand for a gun that only lasts for 500 rounds is a bit steep.


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## wmpwi (Nov 20, 2005)

*Re: "Easiest" CCW Choices?*

*Seecamp .380 *


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## cognitivefun (Nov 20, 2005)

*Re: "Easiest" CCW Choices?*

99% of the time I carry a G27 in a pocket holster. It works for me. It is very, very easy. I carry my wallet, pocketknife and U60 in my left pants pocket, and my gun in my right. In a Nemesis holster. Can't get easier than that.


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## Malpaso (Nov 20, 2005)

*Re: "Easiest" CCW Choices?*

I have three levels of carry, from bulky winter clothes to minimal summer clothes. My carry gun changes based on the ability to conceal and have access to. When concealability is easy, I carry a 1911 in .45. When I have marginal concealability, I usually carry an SP101 .357 in an Uncle Mike's #0 with the clip cut off, which fits in my right front pants pocket and allows ease of draw. When concealability is difficult I cut back to a Smith & Walther PPK in .380.


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## Jumpmaster (Nov 20, 2005)

*Re: "Easiest" CCW Choices?*



Malpaso said:


> When concealability is difficult I cut back to a *Smith & Walther* PPK in .380.



:thinking: :huh2:

Ok...

Well...I carry an HK USP .45 compact in winter and a Walther 9mm PPK in summer. Works great for me...

JM-99


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## AJ_Dual (Nov 20, 2005)

*Re: "Easiest" CCW Choices?*

Easiest?

Maybe a Kel-Tec P32?

That's about as slim, light, and small as they come. There's smaller, but arguably, not suitable for defense. .32 is the smallest of the "sub-par" calibers as it is, at least in my world. There are things like the NAA Mini-22 revolvers that are even smaller, but IMO, they're more curiosities than anything else.

Mostly though, it's that people with CCW's who don't use them are paranoid they'll be "made". They don't realize 99.9% of the population is oblivious.

Kind of like a zit, it looks huge and bothersome to you in the bathroom mirror, but it's barely a dot to everyone else. The bulge they see from their concealed piece is invisible to everyone else.

We'll probably have CCW permits in WI this year, it failed by one vote on override of the anti-gun govenor's veto last time. And that vote was going to go for the override, until at the last minute until the govenor "bought him out" with a job (that pays better than state rep.) after his term was up (which it surely was for betryaing his constituency). The slimebag was even a co-sponsor of the bill and wrote pro-carry op-ed pieces for his local paper...

If the veto override fails this year, we will have it almost for certain in 2007. The govenor is a one-termer for sure.  If anything, waiting a year and a half might not be too bad, as we'll have to make fewer concessions to the fence sitters in the legislature.

I have a Glock 26 I'll probably be using for most carry, with maybe my P32 as backup. I'd only consider the P32 as primary carry if I were in a situation where my carry was legal, but the repercussions for being "made" were severe, such as the thereoretical "Your (anti) employer, or your life?" kind of senario which is debated endlessly on the various gun-boards...


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## slind1 (Nov 20, 2005)

*Re: "Easiest" CCW Choices?*

Seecamp .32 ACP


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## Sigman (Nov 20, 2005)

*Re: "Easiest" CCW Choices?*

Colt .380 - I'd like to get something else, but this is bought & paid for!

(BTW - no permit required in Alaska)


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## lite brite (Nov 20, 2005)

*Re: "Easiest" CCW Choices?*

Keltec P3at just slightly larger than the P32 and a little more ooomph  I don't even know it's there sometimes..Steve


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## guncollector (Nov 20, 2005)

*Re: "Easiest" CCW Choices?*

All great replies.

Needless to say, A .22 in pocket beatsa .44 in the truck.

That said, I carry a Glock 26 (9mm) in either Lou Alessi ankle holster, or a Galco Summer Comfort (IWB carry).

Most gunfights last perhaps 3 shots. Prolonged shootouts are the stuff of Hollyweird movies. If you need more than 10-rounds of 9mm to solve a "situation", then you're in the longarm realm.

I've carried a S&W 342Ti, but .38's coming out of the flyweight revolver were a bear to put into the X-ring. The G26 conceals just as readily, and I can put all in the X-ring at 7 yards.


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## BigBaller (Nov 20, 2005)

*Re: "Easiest" CCW Choices?*

Full size for me. 1911 or CZ-52 in uncle mikes sidekick at 4:30 o'clock IWB.


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## drizzle (Nov 21, 2005)

*Re: "Easiest" CCW Choices?*



lite brite said:


> Keltec P3at just slightly larger than the P32 and a little more ooomph  I don't even know it's there sometimes..Steve



Another vote for the P-3AT. I carry in a Jason Shaffer holster in the front right pocket.


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## cognitivefun (Nov 21, 2005)

*Re: "Easiest" CCW Choices?*

I decided that stopping power was important. Having a .380 or a .32 is unsatisfactory. Even a .40 isn't very good. But it's better. I carry the G27 with no problem and I feel confident that it is the best I can do in a concealable weapon.


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## bjn70 (Nov 21, 2005)

*Re: "Easiest" CCW Choices?*

I talked to a police officer who also taught concealed carry classes and he recommended pocket carry. He said the advantage was that you could have your hand on your gun when an unknown person approaches you. He said that people will try to look innocent while they get close to you, such as asking for directions or asking for the time or whatever, then when they get very close to you they will pull out their weapons and demand your money. Then it's too late for you to retrieve your gun from other areas of concealment.


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## Malpaso (Nov 21, 2005)

*Re: "Easiest" CCW Choices?*

Quote:
Originally Posted by Malpaso
When concealability is difficult I cut back to a Smith & Walther PPK in .380. 



Jumpmaster said:


> :thinking: :huh2:
> 
> Ok...
> 
> JM-99



S & W and Walther are co-manufacturing the PPK now. The gun carries both of their names.


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## TonkinWarrior (Nov 21, 2005)

*Re: "Easiest" CCW Choices?*

I vote for (a) the S&W snubby (b) in a pocket holster.

While all the guns and carry methods mentioned are good choices where tailored to various individual circumstances, the "Pocket Snubby" has these advantages:

1. CONCEALABILITY: with the right pocket holster, plus maybe something (thin wallet, handkerchief, etc,) to break up its outline, it prints the least under general carry and movement.

2. STOPPING POWER: loaded with good +P hollowpoints, energy levels of 300 to 400 ft. lbs. per shot are achievable. That's about double the per-shot power of most mini semi-autos. Blast and recoil are fierce, but that's a training issue readily managed. Besides, in the adrenalized stress of a sudden confrontation, the human sensory system tends to block them out.

3. CAPACITY: As mentioned earlier, the snubby's 5-shot capacity is generally adequate for most civilian self-defense scenarios. Given Prof. Gary Kleck's landmark research that projects 2 million (plus) annual SD gun uses annually in the U.S., that implies that 98% of SD confrontations succeed by the intended victim/target merely showing a gun. (I'm one of those 2 million+: several times over.)

4. RELIABILITY: the snubby has no safeties/buttons/levers to actuate under all-thumbs stress. Small semi-autos can jam via a less-than-perfect grip, limp-wristing, or odd-angle falling/rolling on the ground, etc. While snubbies can jam from errant coins tossed in the wrong pocket, they usually don't require the fussy gunsmithing/tuning/ramp-throating//lubrication that many otherwise excellent semi-autos do.

5. SPEED: nothing's faster than a Snubby-Surprise whipped from a pants or jacket pocket. No safeties to flick. No re-gripping for a solid hold. Just grab, point... and shoot. Keeps It Simple And Stupid. And only a snubby can be held IN a jacket-pocket and readily shot THROUGH the pocket, multiple times, without jamming. So, you can "cover" an approaching threat without the poor, maladjusted, socially-disadvantaged, misunderstood darlings ever knowing it.

Yeah, a Colt 1911 or Sig 226 (backed up by a snubby or PPK... along with an 870 shotgun or AR-15 nearby) is ideal. It's also impractical for most. The Snubby Compromise is time-tested. It works.


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## drizzle (Nov 21, 2005)

*Re: "Easiest" CCW Choices?*

Interesting breakdown TonkinWarrior. Here's how I would rate the Keltec P-3AT in those categories:

CONCEALABILITY: Excelent. Small, flat and light; and in the JS holster very well "camouflaged" even in slacks. This is important to me as a city dweller whose work uniform includes Docker style pants. That's where the light weight helps too.

STOPPING POWER: So much is written on this. I think this is adequate but there are endless arguments about this which I don't want to get into.

CAPACITY: 6+1

RELIABILITY: Probably not as good as a revolver or higher quality pistol. This is a compromise I'm living with. I have personally not had mine fail but I do hear stories.

SPEED: Same as a revolver. Just point and shoot.


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## Jumpmaster (Nov 21, 2005)

*Re: "Easiest" CCW Choices?*



Malpaso said:


> S & W and Walther are co-manufacturing the PPK now. The gun carries both of their names.



Ewwwwww.....

JM-99


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## Malpaso (Nov 21, 2005)

*Re: "Easiest" CCW Choices?*

Quote:
Originally Posted by Malpaso
S & W and Walther are co-manufacturing the PPK now. The gun carries both of their names. 




Jumpmaster said:


> Ewwwwww.....
> 
> JM-99



Normally, I would have agreed with you, but once I handled and dry fired it I was sold. It has great lines, smooth edges and excellent sight pattern. I got great groups off hand at 25 feet right out of the box.


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## wmpwi (Nov 21, 2005)

*Re: "Easiest" CCW Choices?*

At the risk of alienating a significant number of people, whatever you wind up getting, the best choice is the one that you can manage. You can go with a big stopping power model, but if you can't get it out fast enough or hit what you need to, it may be a nice piece for your next of kin. I don't own a Seecamp or any of the small Berettas (though I do like them), but I do find a good argument in this link: http://seecamp.com/faq.htm#No%20Sights. While it’s about the practicality of sights on a self defense weapon, there’s some useful info regarding the kind of encounters one might face and what should be an important consideration when selecting a CCW.


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## Lee1959 (Nov 21, 2005)

*Re: "Easiest" CCW Choices?*

I carry one of 3 handguns usually, depending upon clothing, time of year, and event. I carry:

EAA Witness Compact .45 acp in an Uncle Mikes Pistol Pac, or a Shado behind the back holster in winter of when wearing jackets that conceal better. Spare magazine carried in a dual pouch with either a Gerber Multipliers or Inova X0 in the second pouch. 

East German Makarov in an Uncle Mikes Pistol Pac, or Shado behind the back holster in warmer weather with loose shirts etc. SPare magazine carried in dual belt pouch rig with UPT or flashlight.

Kel-tec Pt380 with pocket clip when in formal wear or when wearing light clothing where a handgun can "print". I find myself carrying this more often in summer than anything else, with spare magazine carried in the pocket in a carrier. 

I carry every day, and even when I am carrying the Kel-Tec, I have a Lands End soft briefcase kit and in it is a spare East German Makarov, 4 magazines, and 100 rounds nearby. It also includes various other items to get one home in almost any event.


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## wmpwi (Nov 21, 2005)

*Re: "Easiest" CCW Choices?*

You must live on the east side of the state :nana: 





Lee1959 said:


> I carry one of 3 handguns usually, depending upon clothing, time of year, and event. I carry:
> 
> EAA Witness Compact .45 acp in an Uncle Mikes Pistol Pac, or a Shado behind the back holster in winter of when wearing jackets that conceal better. Spare magazine carried in a dual pouch with either a Gerber Multipliers or Inova X0 in the second pouch.
> 
> ...


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## TimB (Nov 22, 2005)

*Re: "Easiest" CCW Choices?*

Hi Dirty Bob,

I have some experience in this subject...

You have already hit the nail on the head with your initial post.

It is certainly possible to carry a more powerful weapon than a .38 Special snubby, but nothing is more reliable or convenient. Anything smaller and you have to ask yourself, "Do I really trust that this weapon is of sufficient power to get me out of a jam if my life depends on it?" (Personal opinion, not intended to disparage anyone else's weapon of choice.)

-Tim


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## TonkinWarrior (Nov 22, 2005)

*Re: "Easiest" CCW Choices?*

The revolver leaves no ballistic evidence (cartridge casings) at the crime scene. 

While any bullets you shoot into your target MIGHT be traceable, knowledgeable shooters know (a) what ammo to use, and (b) what post-shooting gun "tweaking/tuning" steps to take... to thwart bullet/gun matching. 

Under certain post-shooting scenarios (legal and otherwise), this can have serious advantages for the revolver/snubby self-defense shooter. Not so for semi-autos.

Don't tell the naive Sheeple and anti-gun politicians behind those silly "ballistic I.D." schemes. If they knew this, they'd probably "ban" revolvers and make us all carry those, ummm, eeeevil semi-automatic assault pistols.

"Problem A" is winning/surviving an attack.

"Problem B" is surviving -- or avoiding -- the legal aftermath.

Now, I'm not suggesting you cut-an'-run after a "legitimate" self-defense shooting... just because, say, (a) there were no witnesses, (b) it was midnight in a dark parking lot/alley/remote country road, or (c) your cell phone was dead and you couldn't call the cops so they could come and arrest you and then turn you over to the anti-gun D.A. who needs the Soccer-Mom/For-The-Children vote to get elected mayor next year.

What I'm saying is: Plan ahead. Maximize your options.


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## tracker870 (Nov 22, 2005)

*Re: "Easiest" CCW Choices?*

"Easiest" depends on too many factors. Your training, your size, your abilities, attitude, etc.
S&W 642 in a pocket holster is a good option, 3913 IWB or OWB.
Nothing wrong with a 1911, if you can conceal it.


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## Lee1959 (Nov 22, 2005)

*Re: "Easiest" CCW Choices?*

Lol, Hi Charely

you hit the nail on the head, I live about as far east in the state as you can get, without getting wet... I also spend more time in Detroit and Flint than I would choose.


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## wmpwi (Nov 22, 2005)

*Re: "Easiest" CCW Choices?*

My original thinking was that you might be some sort of fanatic, but now I'd say you may want to beef up your arsenal a bit.  I don't think anyone would truly understand Flint without having been there. I'm actually just outside of Grand Rapids. Don't you just love Michigan's CCW law?  





 




Lee1959 said:


> Lol, Hi Charely
> 
> you hit the nail on the head, I live about as far east in the state as you can get, without getting wet... I also spend more time in Detroit and Flint than I would choose.


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## Dirty Bob (Nov 22, 2005)

*Re: "Easiest" CCW Choices?*

I've never been to Flint, but I've seen part of Detroit...eeewwwww.

I want to thank you guys for all the excellent replies. It sounds like I'm far from the only one who's found the snubby to be a good compromise. Front pocket holster is my favorite, and the .38's the most powerful handgun that's concealable there, for me. Anything bigger sways around like a brick when I wear a suit with summer-weight slacks.

I'm amazed at how many people have the "perfect" CCW pistol, but then don't carry. I admit, that with a family and the sometimes unpredictable schedule, I'd find it hard to "arm up" quickly if I had to thread a holster, mag pouch, SureFire, etc. onto a "Bat Belt". I couldn't wear such a rig around the house without complaints about damage to furnishings. On the other hand, my wife never knows when I'm packing, though she's finally realizing that it's all the time, unless I'm headed for a "criminal empowerment zone." The snubby's quite simply invisible.

I'd love to carry a Winchester 1200 "De*g*ender" 12ga (with the 22" concealment barrel and a full-length stock) in an IWB holster, with twin S&W M29s in ankle holsters as backup...or at least a 1911, but for now, the .38 snubby works very well for me, along with a small knife and flashlight, of course.

Best regards,
Dirty Bob


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## Lee1959 (Nov 23, 2005)

*Re: "Easiest" CCW Choices?*

Lol, you are right Charley, I AM a fanatic, for staying alive  ...

Db, I like the snubbie too, I sometimes will carry my S&W .38 with the shrouded hammer.


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## Samoan (Nov 24, 2005)

*Re: "Easiest" CCW Choices?*

Sig P229 or Glock G27. .40 S&W is plenty of lead if you shoot enough and feel comfortable with the round. WHen I first started shooting the Glock I thought it was going to jump out of my hand. Small gun and I have big paws.

The Sig is just sweeet.

-F


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## cratz2 (Nov 24, 2005)

*Re: "Easiest" CCW Choices?*

Though I don't carry everyday anymore, my primary carry is a CZ PCR. Before that, it was a considerably smaller Kahr P9 Covert which isn't a very popular model, but it has the PM9 sized grip with a longer slide for what should be higher velocities and greater reliability. Mine never failed with ball ammo or Speer Gold Dots or Georgia Arms Gold Dots. Not radically larger than the KelTec P32/P3AT but I have more confidence in it.

I'd also like to check out the even larger Kahr TP9 at some point and would consider an 45-based Kahr but haven't shot or even handled one yet. In an ideal world where I could carry anywhere including work, I'd carry a 1911, or an COO type 1911 with an Officer sized grip with a Commander sized slide. I carry the 1911 in a Milt Sparks Summer Special 2 and carry the Kahr or CZ in High Noon Hidden Impact or Hidden Ally 'tuckable' holsters.

Here are a couple pics comparing the P32 to the P9 Covert.


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## cy (Nov 24, 2005)

*Re: "Easiest" CCW Choices?*

logged in a few hours with this....


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## TimB (Nov 24, 2005)

*Re: "Easiest" CCW Choices?*

Cy,

Is that a German PPK? You have class my friend 

-Tim


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## TonkinWarrior (Nov 24, 2005)

*Re: "Easiest" CCW Choices?*

Nice PPK, Cy.

.32 or .380?

What's your preferred carry-load?


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## wmpwi (Nov 24, 2005)

*Re: "Easiest" CCW Choices?*

Not the ideal choice for weight, but accurate and fast.


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## DBrier (Nov 27, 2005)

*Re: "Easiest" CCW Choices?*

Another Seecamp .32 owner here. put in a Galco pocket holster and it look just like a wallet.


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## guntotin_fool (Dec 1, 2005)

*Re: "Easiest" CCW Choices?*

i carry a 1911 govt or commander, OWB most of the time. hides easy under a hawaiian shirt in warm weather, the rest of the year in minnesota i could and have hidden a much larger weapon.


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## TKC (Dec 3, 2005)

*Re: "Easiest" CCW Choices?*

My CCW carry preference is IWB, and that works great for ME. I carry either my Kahr or my S&W wheel gun, and of course spare ammo.


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## fasteddie (Dec 3, 2005)

*Re: "Easiest" CCW Choices?*



wmpwi said:


> *Seecamp .380 *


Seecamp makes a .380??? I've got a Seecamp .32 (silvertips) that I carried in a galco pocket holster. Fit perfectly in the front pocket of a pair of polo shorts or the back pocket of a pair of jeans. Haven't gotten my permit since I moved from FL to TX, so I don't carry it anymore.


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## wmpwi (Dec 3, 2005)

*Re: "Easiest" CCW Choices?*

Yup, but they're probably harder to get than the .32s

http://www.seecamp.com/1LWSTRY2b.jpg

http://www.seecamp.com/1LWS2.jpg



fasteddie said:


> Seecamp makes a .380??? <snip>.


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## DBrier (Dec 4, 2005)

*Re: "Easiest" CCW Choices?*

It must be a typo, I read that too and went :huh2: 
Seecamp never made a .380
.25 and later the .32
Before that they made custom 1911s


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## wmpwi (Dec 4, 2005)

*Re: "Easiest" CCW Choices?*

I'm not sure I can be much clearer. Check their website. 

http://www.seecamp.com/1LWSTRY2b.jpg

http://www.seecamp.com/companyhistory.htm . . . .

"2003 saw the introduction of the LWS .380 to commerce, which gun is identical in size and weight to the LWS .25 or the LWS .32."


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## frankm (Dec 10, 2005)

*Re: "Easiest" CCW Choices?*

I'm already on my 2nd post! I carry a Kahr PM9 in my right front pocket in a pocket holster. I wear Docker type pants and the pistol completely disappears in my pocket. Oh, I do have a CWP.


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## srvctec (Mar 23, 2006)

*Would like suggestions for concealed carry gun*

Today Kansas finally passed the concealed carry bill into law by overriding the Governor's veto. :rock::twothumbs

I already have a few handguns, but not really what I would consider appropriate for concealed carry. My "go to" gun is my 9mm Ruger P89D with Crimson Trace laser grips, but I'm thinking it's a little big for concealed carry year round, although it wouldn't be bad in the winter.

I'd like to get a smaller 9mm so as not to have to worry about getting and keeping track of different ammo.

Any suggestions on a smaller, reliable, 9mm gun for concealed carry? Or is my P89 already suited for this?


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## Lee1959 (Mar 23, 2006)

*Re: Would like suggestions for concealed carry gun*

If I were going to buy a new CCW 9MM it would definitly be the Kahr PM9 I think the designation is. It is the smallest package for 9MM Parabellum CCW carry out there right now. And I have never heard a bad word about them. Concealment is the key, especialy since if your state is like Michigan, if any part of the gun shows, it can be considered brandishing. It is not always easy to conceal even some of the compact pistols in summer undlier light clothing or in dress clothing. The Kahr would be able to be used in this capacity better than most. It is not all that much bigger than my Kel-Tec P3AT in .380 ACP.


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## Arkayne (Mar 23, 2006)

*Re: Would like suggestions for concealed carry gun*

The Glock 26 sub-compact is a nice concealer. You better hit within your first mag because swapping out mags under pressure is a pain. I find it hard to release because 1/4 of your grip IS the mag.


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## gdict (Mar 23, 2006)

*Re: Would like suggestions for concealed carry gun*

Someday when hell freezes over and California gets a right to carry law, i'll be ready with one that I already own. The S&W 340PD. Scandium alloy frame, titanium cylinder, .357 MAGNUM, and it only weighs 10.5 oz. The inherint simplicity of a revolver guarantees reliabilty, the .357 Magnum guarantees stopping power. If you haven't looked at one up close, do so. Even the non-gun owners on CPF would appreciate the materials and manufacturing that goes into it. Only two drawbacks to it. Expensive as all hell with an MSRP close to a grand and it recoils like a motherf*&%er. We nicknamed mine the "ow gun".

Now, if only Smith and Wesson would hire a flashlight designer to integrate a Luxeon tac-light into the design......

Greg


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## drizzle (Mar 23, 2006)

*Re: Would like suggestions for concealed carry gun*

I conceal carry the Kel-Tec P-3AT in .380 Auto. Since I bought mine they have come out with a 9mm model, the PF-9. Looking at the PM9 specs the PF-9 is slightly larger and slightly lighter. In other words they seem to be just about the same size.

BTW, I carry in a Jason Shaffer holster in my front right pocket. No matter which gun you buy I recommend these if you want a very low profile carry and can live with a slower draw. (Note: they seem to be dealing with web hosting provider problems right now so you may want to delay a purchase from them.)


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## magic79 (Mar 23, 2006)

*Re: Would like suggestions for concealed carry gun*

Let me mention a few points.

First, concealment should never be taken as the sole, or even primary consideration for a carry weapon. A tiny gun that you can conceal in swim trunks but can't hit with, is much, much more dangerous that not carrying at all. There are several reasons for this. 

1. If you ever get into a situation that requires use of deadly force and you can't hit the kill zone of a human size target across a room with your firearm, you are very likely to be killed. 
2. If you do miss and hit a bystander and by the grace of God you are not killed, you will spend a LOT of money defending yourself (probably in civil AND criminal court) and will likely have to pay a huge settlement as well.
3. As gdict pointed out, tiny guns usually kick like hell. This makes a followup shot after a miss much, much more difficult, and you are standing there with a bullseye on your chest.
4. Tiny guns require much, much more practice to become proficient because of increased recoil, shorter barrel, shorter sight radius (before you say "Oh...I'm getting laser grips: what if the battery fails at the wrong time?). Because they are uncomfortable to shoot, you will be LESS inclined to practice.

Therefore, you should consider all these points before making your selection.

There are other things that are much easier to do. For example, adjust your wardrobe. I can conceal my full size Glock 21 with a pair of shorts and an untucked Hawaiian shirt.

When selecting a concealable firearm, remember that the length of the barrel is seldom a factor in concealment; it's the butt that is hard to conceal. Short barrels can cost you enough velocity to cause a hollowpoint to fail to expand.

I would recommend the following:
1. Find a range than rents a variety of concealable handguns and see which one(s) fit best, you shoot best, and are not so punishing that you won't practice enough to become proficient.
2. Get the best holster(s) you can find. Don't spend $500-$1000 on a good gun and put it in a $15 holster. Avoid paddle holsters. I train every week. In that group I have seen 100% of paddle holsters eventually come out with the gun. It happened again last night. A cheap holster can get you killed.
3. Find the best load for the barrel length of the gun. Lighter weight bullets generally do much better with short barrels.
4. Don't EVER carry third-party magazines. Again, saving a buck can get you killed. Plus, it's fodder for a defense attorney if you get sued (you will). Same goes for hand loads ("So Mr. Smith, you felt it necessary to load your own cop-killer bullets?")
5. Find an attorney who HAS defended citizens using lethal force. Talk to them and carry their card with you all the time. The best time to find the best attorney is before the excrement hits the fan, not from a pay phone at the jail. Again, if you have to use lethal force you WILL need an attorney.

Having said ALLLLL that  ... the guns recommended are all good choices IF you can handle them.

I personally think the Glock is the best personal weapon there is, but everyone has different hands, different preferences, and different prejudices. I generally carry my Glock 30, but sometimes the Glock 27 (.40 S&W, but same size gun as the excellent G26 recommended by Arkayne). I also carry the Glock 19 from time-to-time, but I'm not a big 9mm fan.

As for magazine swapping, it's much more a factor of practicing over and over and regularly than anything. I compete frequently and am always in the top 2-3 regardless of what firearm I'm competing against. 

In addition, magazine changes are almost never because you need more rounds (the average gunfight consumes 3 or fewer rounds and lasts less than 2 seconds), but because of a failure. Quality modern pistols virtually never fail, but you know Murphy. That alone is reason to ALWAYS carry a second magazine.

Next, DO get a laser. Statistics are showing HUGE advantages, especially under pressure, with a laser grip. But...turn it off or put tape over it for some practice from time-to-time too; you need to maintain 'regular' sight proficiency too.

My final recommendation is practice: frequently and regularly. Most ranges won't let you draw from a holster, so practice at home in front of a mirror (safe your gun, count the rounds AND stick your finger in the chamber before attempting this, and be sure there is NO ONE in another room in line with the mirror). Practice changing magazines. Set up failures and practice clearing them if the range allows this. Most important, get training. You wouldn't jump in a car and get on the freeway without training...don't do it with a firearm.

Sorry I wrote a masters-length thesis...I hope it has some useful information.


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## Arkayne (Mar 23, 2006)

*Re: Would like suggestions for concealed carry gun*

Magic79: That was incredible. Nice post!


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## Sigman (Mar 23, 2006)

*Re: Would like suggestions for concealed carry gun*

Merged 2 "like threads"...and a bump to bring it to the top.


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## cbxer55 (Mar 23, 2006)

I carry a Kimber CDP II .45 in a Mitch Rosen Workman holster. This is a IWB which allows you to tuck in your shirt over holster and gun. Then I keep a North American Arms Guardian (just liek a Seecamp .32) in my left front pocket occasionally. One spare magazine for each.


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## magic79 (Mar 23, 2006)

I see that two threads have been merged, so I want to comment on the other thread because,to me anyway, it asks a very different question.

I think looking for the "easiest" to carry completely begs the question of why to carry a firearm and could easily result in you getting into more danger than not carrying.

Rather than ramble like my previous post, let me postulate this. If you were going camping, would you carry a Streamlight Stylus because it was "easiest to carry"? Carrying a firearm that is "easy to carry" but is inadequate to perform the task (incapacitating or killing an attacker) is likely to put you on a slab in the morgue.


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## srvctec (Mar 23, 2006)

magic79 said:


> I see that two threads have been merged, so I want to comment on the other thread because,to me anyway, it asks a very different question.
> 
> I think looking for the "easiest" to carry completely begs the question of why to carry a firearm and could easily result in you getting into more danger than not carrying.
> 
> Rather than ramble like my previous post, let me postulate this. If you were going camping, would you carry a Streamlight Stylus because it was "easiest to carry"? Carrying a firearm that is "easy to carry" but is inadequate to perform the task (incapacitating or killing an attacker) is likely to put you on a slab in the morgue.



magic,

Great post (#50) above with lots of good points. I agree totally with what you said quoted in this post (#54). That is why I'm wondering if my full size Ruger P89D will fit the bill. I mean, it would save me tons of money since it's already got a laser and virtually no extra training (learning a new gun) since I've had the gun for over 10 years and shoot it regularly. I am currently a member of a local range for around 10 years now. Not to say that you can get too much training on anything, but I'm kind of in a pinch moneywise right now and would like to save as much as possible- I should have mentioned this in my first post.

I already know I wouldn't want a real small gun because I have big hands and it would drive me nuts trying to hold one that was too small.


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## Lightraven (Mar 23, 2006)

Magic79,

I do find a few points you made to disagree with. Of course, nobody has all the answers, including me.

Unless a weapon blows up in your hand, it cannot be worse than being unarmed. A threat does not know the condition of the gun, or your proficiency with it or your will to use it--unless you tell him or her. Therefore, a gun or replica has considerable deterrence value. 

Now in the 1% situation in which deterrence fails, additional factors come into play. 

In California, the law protects a citizen who accidentally shoots an innocent bystander while defending him or herself. There can be no prosecution for this. I'm not sure about civil penalties.

I don't think accuracy from gun to gun is really a big deal. If a person has received adequate training and spent some time at the range, a 2 inch snubbie or target shooter will likely make little difference because of the way self-defense situations happen.

Though I don't reload ammo or use aftermarket magazines, I think it would be irrelevant in any shooting. Assuming you find yourself defending your actions in a court, the opposing attorney will attack everything you did from the day you were born. When is the last time you had any alcoholic drink? When is the last time you had a hit of marijuana or cocaine or speed? We have your arrest record for when you were 16 and busted for a phony driver's license. You filed a police report 5 years ago that your car was broken into--were you trying to get revenge on the next person that messed with you? You made threats against my client prior to shooting, didn't you? You provoked him earlier in the day with insulting gestures, didn't you? You carried a gun because you intended to shoot my client, didn't you? 

I disagree that quality modern handguns virtually never fail. They don't fail often, but they do fail, especially if they are not maintained properly. Additional magazines aren't likely to help in the middle of a fight.

I used to have a Lasermax on my Glock 27, but had to remove it because it would turn itself on and drain the batteries. I like the idea, though. 

A lot of mirrors have been shot from "practicing" this way. In my opinion, it is better and safer to just go to the range and shoot. I know everybody thinks they are safe, but for the benefits gained, I think the risk is excessive.


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## Bill.H (Mar 23, 2006)

Lightraven said:


> Unless a weapon blows up in your hand, it cannot be worse than being unarmed.



Excellent point, and one that cannot be overstressed.

The BEST gun (or knife/pen/screwdriver/flashlight/watch/etc.) is the one you have with you when you need it.

A 5'7", 140 lb guy earing cutoffs and a T shirt in AZ in July, or a 6'5" 300 pounder wearing a parka in Alaska in January won't have the same choices. Concealability means different things to different people.

I guess I'm just trying to say you have to ask yourself how much can you carry, and you have to answer that yourself.

An NAA Mini in your pocket is more effective than a 1911 in the safe.


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## Lee1959 (Mar 23, 2006)

As far as size and CCW, it does matter in my experience. Yes you can carry a full sized handgun successfully, however not everyone can wear a hawiian shirt every day in every situation. There will be a lot of times when you where something more form fitting, or dress clothing. Not to mention that carrying a full sized handgun takes commitment, and sacrifice, and most people, once the kewl factor of having a CCW permit will start not carrying when their only option is a full sized handgun and it is not comfortable, or easy to do. 

If one has a smaller handgun it will most likely be carried at all times as opposed to a larger handgun that gets left at home out of comfort, 30 to 40 percent of the time or more. 

This will sound like I am a fan of small calibers only, that is hardly the case, my favorite handgun is a customized Ruger Redhawk in .44 magnum, and one of my often carried handguns is a .45 ACP, I prefer large bores. However, I have found that there are many times when a small handgun is the only thing I can carry reasonably and comfortably therefore, I have that option and make good use of it.

If I were able to have only one handgun for CCW carry it would be a small one, that could be carried constantly no matter what I wear, even in shorts with no shirt. I would carry the best modern frangible hollowpoint load that loads reliably, or like I do in the .380 use Glassers which are extremely effective. Guns like the Kel-tec Pt3AT, the Kahr PM9 and other small carry handguns can be made extremely effective with the right ammunition and can close that power gap when not able to carry a larger caliber effectively. 

Large or small handgun, the key to using it effectively is practice, practice and more practice. When you think you have done enough, practice some more. 

What happens in a lot of shooting, with any type of shooting system, open sights or lazer, the person can, even the best trained shooter, focus under stress on their opponent or target and shoot instinctively, the same way I do with a bow. Only practice can create this rote muscle/eye coordination so do a lot of it. 

Practice in the clothing you normally wear, do not use special gloves or clothing, or anything that will interfere with the r/t feel of the experience. Reload from your daily carry magazine carriers worn exactly as you would, do not buy special range carriers, or load from a table. Train your hands, eyes, feel, and instincts exactly as they will be used. When I train with the bow, I shoot from my hunting qwiver, I can shoot, grab an arrow and shoot in my sleep or with my eyes closed, my hands know where to go exactly, I do the same with my handgun practice. 


Just my two cents gleened from my experiences, your mileage may vary.


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## cy (Mar 24, 2006)

*Re: "Easiest" CCW Choices?*



TimB said:


> Cy,
> 
> Is that a German PPK? You have class my friend
> 
> -Tim


Tim, it was a pleasure to meet you at shot show!

yep, it's a german PPK in .380, wear marks are from being carried many hours. 

PMC 380 90FMJ and glaser safety slugs, depending upon situation.


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## 270winchester (Mar 24, 2006)

*Re: "Easiest" CCW Choices?*

Around the house back home and when the conditions allow I throw a little Beretta 32 in my pocket. 7+1 shot of 32 isn't too potent but the DA/SA is rare in a gun so small, and the frame safety allows a cocked-and-locked carry, something that makes 1911 guys real happy. Accuracy is good and dead simple to maintain. Not gonna get any deers with it but better than a 22 anyday.


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## magic79 (Mar 24, 2006)

(Quotes are locking up again...third time's the charm? )

_“I do find a few points you made to disagree with. Of course, nobody has all the answers, including me._

_Unless a weapon blows up in your hand, it cannot be worse than being unarmed. A threat does not know the condition of the gun, or your proficiency with it or your will to use it--unless you tell him or her. Therefore, a gun or replica has considerable deterrence value. _

_Now in the 1% situation in which deterrence fails, additional factors come into play. _
_[snip] _
_I don't think accuracy from gun to gun is really a big deal. If a person has received adequate training and spent some time at the range, a 2 inch snubbie or target shooter will likely make little difference because of the way self-defense situations happen._
_[snip] _
_Though I don't reload ammo or use aftermarket magazines, I think it would be irrelevant in any shooting. _
_[snip] _
_Additional magazines aren't likely to help in the middle of a fight._
_[snip]_
_I used to have a Lasermax on my Glock 27, but had to remove it because it would turn itself on and drain the batteries. I like the idea, though. _
_[snip]_
_A lot of mirrors have been shot from "practicing" this way. In my opinion, it is better and safer to just go to the range and shoot. I know everybody thinks they are safe, but for the benefits gained, I think the risk is excessive.”_




Light: I’m don’t want to argue with you, however, I do have some comments based on experience, training, and research. Just as a point of reference, I have more than 2000 hours of training (including California Highway Patrol Academy and Gunsite Academy), and have fired more than 25,000 rounds through various handguns.

What does that mean? It means that I am certain there are a lot of things I DON’T know.

However…Light, some of this stuff you are just making up. 

It absolutely CAN be worse than being unarmed. If you produce a gun, your chances of being shot increase dramatically. The idea of pulling a “replica” handgun on today’s criminal is simply stunning. I can produce links as long as your arm to stories of people with toy guns being shot (and usually killed). I honestly can’t think of a stupider thing to do. It’s true that more often than not, shots will not be fired. Are you willing to bet your life on that? That is quite literally what we’re talking about. If you cannot say with absolute certainly “YES I will kill another human being…man, woman, or child…to save my or my family’s life” you should not be carrying a gun.

Every instructor I have learned from or read their writings say the same thing: “Do not take out your weapon unless you are willing to take another human being’s life.” A gun is NOT a threat. . There is absolutely nothing cool about shooting another human being; you would never be the same.

Accuracy ABSOLUTELY does matter. Again, I can if you like post dozens of links to stories where someone shot and missed multiple times only to be shot (and often killed). Tragically a disproportionate number of those are LEOs. Beyond that, the shorter the barrel, the less effective the gun. Unlike TV and the movies, humans don’t usually just fold up and drop to the ground when shot with a handgun. Many LEOs have been killed by criminals that died from their wounds within seconds of the LEO.

Magazines probably would not be a big legal issue, but they have a tremendously poor track record of failing. There is just no reason to use one.

And, again, I can refer you to many instances of a second magazine saving someone’s life. Practicing a reload while moving, in concealment, or better yet cover is fundamental. If you can’t drop a magazine and reload in less than 3 seconds, you need more practice. I’ve not met anyone yet who couldn’t do this with enough practice. Chances are you will never need it (chances are you’ll never need your gun either), but are you willing to literally bet your life on it?

I absolutely agree with you about the LaserMax. I had one in my G30, and although I liked the blinking laser, it was awkward to turn on and, indeed, it tended to get inadvertently turned on. I think the Crimson Trace is a much better solution.

As for practicing drawing in front of a mirror, yes there have been people who have shot the mirror. That’s why it’s essential to use proper safety techniques. Unload; count the rounds; look into the chamber; stick your finger into the chamber. Better yet, buy some dummy rounds.

If you think in an armed confrontation that you can, without practice, draw from a holster you are deluding yourself. More likely, while fumbling with an unfamiliar task you’ll end up face down on the pavement taking your last breath. Training is essential. As several posters have said, you must be able to do this instinctively, which you cannot without a lot of practice. This isn’t “Darn…I dropped my flashlight”, this is fighting for your last breath as blood spurts from multiple holes in your body as you lie dying.

I would recommend reading Massad Ayoob's "Ayoob Files" in *American Handgunner* magazine. These are accounts of real shootings, real trials, and real psychological horror. He also has several fabulous books. 

I hate to be brash, but this is truly life and death. That's all I have to say, take it for whatever it's worth.


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## Lightraven (Mar 24, 2006)

No arguments, Magic79. Just trying to figure things out and keep it interesting.

A weapon is a tool to solve a problem. It may be possible to solve the problem without the tool, but the tool cannot, by its mere presence (assuming it is unknown to the threat), make a problem worse.

How you use the tool, (and by use I mean display or refer to), can be effective, ineffective or disastrous. There are too many problems for there to be one correct approach to solving all of them. 

You write, "If you produce a gun, your chances of being shot increase dramatically." In a specific context, I would agree. However, if the threat doesn't have a gun, they can't very well shoot you. If the threat has a gun and planned to shoot you no matter what, well, you can't get higher odds of getting shot than 100%.

Keep in mind that I don't advocate a self-defense plan of pointing toy guns. My point was that a weapon (or what appears to be) displayed to a threat will often get them to at least not attack you--deterrence. Unfortunately, there are situations where the display of weapons will initiate an attack that may otherwise, not have taken place. It all takes place inside the head of the threat, and until we can read minds, nobody knows for sure what will happen.

While accuracy is fairly important, the difference between a .38 2 inch revolver and a 5 inch .45 1911 is probably not going to affect the outcome of more than one fight in a thousand simply because of the dynamics of most fights--close range, moving, and do-or-die stress. There are cases of a bad guy putting a gun to a person's head, shooting and missing clean. Who can explain why?

I agree with much of what you have written, at least in the context in which it was intended. I am familiar with some of the training and doctrine you have received as well as Massad Ayoob. Even these people can change their minds or disagree, however.

Brashness is not a problem, but since there is always somebody who knows more or has experienced more, it can result in some embarassment down the line. In this particular instance, I don't want to embarass anybody (or get embarassed myself), so I'm going to let my ideas stand on my reasoning abilities.


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## magic79 (Mar 24, 2006)

In most cases. it is illegal for you to point a firearm at an unarmed person. You could be charged with a misdemeanor or even felony. That is true even for a toy gun! (CA Penal Code 12050-12056) 
I think you are not looking at the most likely scenarios. Suppose you are in 7-11 buying a cup of coffee and a guy comes in with a gun. "Everybody in the back room." he yells and he herds the customers and employees in and locks the door. He takes the money and splits. 

Now, suppose you respond by drawing your gun. You now become his sole focus. You have become a threat, and chances are pretty good he will engage you. Clearly, the presence of your gun changed the dynamics and made you MUCH more likely to get shot than if you had complied without producing it. Often compliance is the best response.

Changing gears a bit, I imagine that just about everyone reading this thread is familiar with it, but in case someone is not, www.packing.org is a FANTASTIC web site. You can get "plain language" summary of the carry laws for every state.

Unfortunately (and there is growing evidence this may change) every state is different. For example, in some states you MUST tell a cop you have a concealed weapon if you are pulled over for a traffic violation. In others, you don't have to unless asked. It's really important to be familiar with the laws of your state.

And, if you are unfamiliar, they list the reciprocal agreements between states. If you really want some freedom, get a non-resident Utah permit and you can carry in (at last count) 28 states. All it takes (besides a clean record obviously) is an 8 hour class and the usual fingerprints and application.

Maybe someday there will be a national CCW!


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## Dirty Bob (Mar 24, 2006)

Some really great information and ideas in this thread!

I started the "easiest" thread, and perhaps my wording was poorly chosen. I was addressing the case of many CCW holders, who have the "ultimate" carry gun but seldom or never carry, because they find that they can't accomodate that gun in their wardrobe, or it gives them back pain, or whatever.

Perhaps a better title would have been *Practical CCW Choices*.

By the way, I think that carrying only some of the time, depending on whim, could be potentially dangerous. Imagine reaching back for your trusty CZ-75 and finding nothing there! 

I find that I could probably conceal a service automatic like a Glock 19 or a 1911 on a daily basis, but it takes a lot of work and discipline, given my usual wardrobe (slacks and tucked-in dress shirt, no cover garment). *My* choice has been a .38 snubby and a Speed Strip, along with a compact knife, a flashlight and a cell phone.

I've gotten some good ideas from this thread, and I'm looking to upgrade my carry system with a tuckable holster, but I'm still exploring the options available.

Thank you,
Dirty Bob


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## tracker870 (Mar 24, 2006)

642 snub in a Nemesis pocket holster; my favorite. Fits all of my clothing choices...

Re: national CCW, Never with MA! MA would have its own laws. I can't see it ever changing, except for the worse....

packing.org; yes, great site!


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## Lightraven (Mar 24, 2006)

Displaying a gun for the purpose of intimidating a person is a crime, of course. Displaying a fake gun in California is an infraction subject to a $100 fine on the first offense. There is no exception for "self-defense" with a fake firearm, though I imagine this is too unusual to specifically exempt. Again, not something I would recommend unless the alternative--serious injury or death--was worse. 

The context in which you display or point a gun is all important. The laws don't really tell you how to obey them. They were written by lawyers.

Basically you can point your gun at somebody, if it is reasonable to do so. Regardless of whether the person has a weapon or not. It is not usually reasonable to point a gun at an unarmed person, but it could be, depending on the circumstances. 

Reasonable will be decided by witnesses (including the threat), the police, the district or U.S. attorney, judges and/or juries--in that order. In other words, you need to think like them. People of Texas are going to have a different idea of reasonable versus Massachusetts, probably.

As far as the tactical decision of drawing a gun, I have looked at many, many scenarios. As a rule, I try to stick to real life incidents, as Massad Ayoob does.

http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/metro/20060302-1122-bn02slain5.html

This is a link to a March 2 San Diego newspaper article about two liquor store clerks who were executed with shots to the back of the head. In the middle of the article is a statement by one of the deceased about whether he had a gun, and why not.

Most robberies don't end this way. Pulling a weapon of any kind on a robber is dangerous. 

In your 7-11 scenario, if someone ordered me into the back room, I'd shoot and take my chances in the gunfight rather than the mercy of a robber. There are no safe solutions to this problem. 

There are many types of problems and robbery is only one of them. Some people intend to harm you or others. Compliance won't get you anything with them. This is where a weapon helps to solve the problem.


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## magic79 (Mar 24, 2006)

We're in total agreement now Lightraven!  


I subscribe to the old axiom: "Better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6."

Here is a video of "CCW in action". This guy is my hero!

http://youtube.com/watch?v=3AA_dgRdDhk

He uses tactics extremely well and solves the problem.


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## Lightraven (Mar 24, 2006)

"We're in total agreement now, Lightraven!"

Dang! I mean, great!

There was an interesting exchange between Ken Good and Jeff Gonzales regarding the usefulness of strobing a flashlight in tactical situations on another message board. Of course Ken thinks strobing is good, and Jeff, generally speaking, does not.

Both ex-Navy SEALs, both now do training. Both well-spoken and have many examples of high speed law enforcement types who agree with their position.

When I read Jeff, I said, "Oh, yeah, I totally agree." Then I read Ken, and thought, "He makes a really good point. He may be right." Then Jeff writes something else and I change my mind.

My point is that if two guys who have very similar backgrounds can disagree about combat tactics and have me changing my mind every post, then it is not easy.


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## TimB (Mar 25, 2006)

*Re: "Easiest" CCW Choices?*



cy said:


> Tim, it was a pleasure to meet you at shot show!
> 
> yep, it's a german PPK in .380, wear marks are from being carried many hours.
> 
> PMC 380 90FMJ and glaser safety slugs, depending upon situation.



Back atcha my friend  See you in 2008?

-Tim


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## jkswiss (Mar 26, 2006)

As the old saying goes, the best type of gun is the one you have beside you. I'll have to disagree with Magic79 when he says that you size shouldn't even be a consideration when looking for a CCW. Believe you me, it is. I can shoot my XD40 service great,however, I'm not lugging around 2lbs of gun thats an 1.2" thick every day. I shoot it well, but the inconvenience of it will more often than not, convince me not to wear it. I have a kel tec P3at with a clip on it that I can wear IWB. Just disappears, weighs close to nothing. I carry that alot. I'd much rather have the option of not using my Kel Tec than nothing at all. You NEVER draw your weapon if your not justified in firing it. If I draw, I'm most likely shooting. Plus, the average citizen shouldn't be taking 15-20 yard shots with their guns. I believe most of these kinds of confrontations take place within 5 yards. 
Go with a lightweight revolver or a SINGLE stack auto. FRACTIONS of an inch in width makes a world of difference in comfort, and if its comfortable, you'll most likely be carrying. These guns are not meant to be extended range guns.


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## bfg9000 (Mar 26, 2006)

Whether camera, light or gun, if there is any chance of having to leave it behind sometimes, then it's really too big to be EDC. Lightweight is good too, which is why so many have been recommending the P-3AT. I even liked its magazineless ancestor, the Grendel P-10. Lots more firepower available in a compact package nowadays like the Kahr PM40, but if it kicks too hard, you'd just end up not practicing as much as you should, making either less power (PM9) or more weight (MK40) a wiser choice. 

The violent-kicking, lightweight Kel-Tec P-40 was discontinued because most people could not hold it hard enough to reliably cycle it! Their website used to say: _"The P-40 is on the borderline of what a human can endure in sectional recoil and velocity. Many customers experience feeding problems, as the rounds cannot come up fast enough from the magazine. Only shooters with strong and bony hand structure can reliably handle self loading pistols with these dynamic properties......"_ Needless to say, a poor choice for most people because the best EDC is the most powerful one you can shoot well (practice with a lot) and will always have with you. Trade off power for reliable control and size.


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## tsask (Mar 26, 2006)

anybody read about something called an AMT DAO 45?It appears to be a palm sized .45


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## bfg9000 (Mar 26, 2006)

AMT went out of business awhile ago, and their .45 isn't really smaller than other choices available today--but their .380 Backup was _much_ smaller and still the backup choice for many. Note they were a cheapie gun manufacturer so quality was variable. But if you get a good one, or have enough gunsmithing done to it, it can be reliable.

BTW it is best to consider no pistol cartridge to be very "powerful." Sure they can easily inflict mortal wounds, but the shootee can still do a lot of damage to you before they finally die, especially when you consider you wouldn't have even drawn your weapon unless you were in immediate, mortal danger. It's like a flashlight; a tool that can buy you some time. More power may buy you a little more time, but it's still no shotgun. If I ever need to use a pistol, I plan on firing as many shots as needed until they stop looking at me, then immediately running away screaming like a little girl.


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## zulu45 (Mar 26, 2006)

While I haven't gotten my concealed carry permit yet, I'm already own the guns I plan to carry. I'll be carrying a Springfield XD-9 SubCompact. It's pretty easy to conceal, great accuracy and performance. I'll probably also carry my 1911, either in my car, or also on me.


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## magic79 (Mar 26, 2006)

jkswiss said:


> I'll have to disagree with Magic79 when he says that you size shouldn't even be a consideration when looking for a CCW. Believe you me, it is. .


 
Gee...I'd have to disagree with me too if that's what I said. :laughing: 

I had said the _concealment_ is not the primary factor. A tiny gun that you can't hit with, won't practice with, and is ballistically inferior is a poor choice.

Sometimes, you need to carry the smallest gun _you can handle_. 

When I bought my Glock 33 (.357 Sig), a lot of folks told me 'nobody can handle that'. Turns out I shoot it pretty well. Sometimes, the only thing I can conceal is my S&W J-frame with CrimsonTrace grips. 

The point is, if you cannot hit a human size target out to, say 7 yards, what is the point in carrying it? And, there are a lot of guns that many people cannot hit with at that range.

I guess I didn't communicate as well as I had hoped. I meant to say, in a more succinct way, find the smallest gun you can hit with and don't carry anything smaller if you can't control it. As they say, gun control is hitting what you're aiming at.


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