# Charger Comparison



## SilverFox

Charger Comparison

Edit: I will be adding results from various chargers to this post as I test them.

I have heard several people express that rechargeable batteries just don’t hold up as well as other types. Others complain at the poor run time they experience when using rechargeable cells in their lights.

Many people have rechargeable lights (TigerLight, Streamlight Stinger and Ultra Stinger, MagCharger, SureFire 8NX and 8AX, SureFire 10X Dominator, SureFire L7, and the list goes on) and complain that they don’t get decent run time from them. 

When looking at rechargeable batteries, the charger my play a more important role than the cells themselves when it comes to performance. I decided to take a look at this from the charger perspective. Could it be that our charging methodology is flawed? 

I picked up a new travel battery charger and have been getting acquainted with it. 

The *Titanium TG-700* (from www.AmondoTech.com ) is a compact independent channel charger for AA or AAA NiMh or NiCd cells. You can charge up to 4 cells at a time and it plugs into AC (110V-240V) and also comes with a DC (12V-24V) adapter. Charging current is about 450 mA. It then goes into a trickle charge mode of 30 mA. It does not have a discharge circuit.

Dimensions are 4 ¾” long x 3” wide x 1 ¼” thick. It weighs 4.5 ounces and the DC adapter adds another 2 ounces for a total of 6.5 ounces. AA cells fit right in and a flip of a lever reduces the length of two slots (two levers total) to accommodate the shorter AAA cells.

I decided to test a group of cells charged in this charger and compare the results to the same cells charged in my *Vanson BC-1HU.* The Vanson charge rate is 500 mA and the trickle rate is 50 mA. It is also an independent channel charger and unlike the TG-700 it has a discharge function.

I also picked up some Titanium AA 2400 mAh cells to check out. 

*Please note that these procedures do not apply to Li-Ion or Li-Poly cells. *

The first procedure with new cells is to go through a few cycles on them. I started by discharging the cells, then charging them up again on my Vanson. I repeated this cycle 4 times, then proceeded to discharge them again.

I would assume that when the charger green light comes on, the cells are fully charged.

I put the cells on the Titanium charger and let them charge until the indicator lights turned from red to green. I then took them off the charger and let them cool down. The cells got up to about 130 F during the charge cycle. After an hour of cool down, I ran the discharge tests.

I then waited an hour and put the same cells in the Vanson charger and once again pulled them out when the lights turned green. The temperature was only about 110 F, but I followed the same cool down cycle. After an hour of cool down, I once again ran the same discharge tests.

Here is a graph of one of the tests, however the other cells behaved in a similar fashion.

EDIT: As you can see, the following graph has the data from all of the chargers. It is getting a little messy, so I am adding a table with the chargers ranked according to Watt Hours. The reason I choose Watt Hours is because it represents a combination of capacity and voltage retention under load. Capacity is important, but it is my humble opinion that Watt Hours is more important.

Here is the charger ranking according to Watt Hours







As you can see, both chargers ended the charge early, but the Vanson was able to get more charge into the cells before the green light came on. I later found that if I left the cells trickle charging for an additional 2 hours on the Vanson and 4 hours on the Titanium, the capacity of the cell went up and there was little difference between the chargers. I finally ended up with a rating of 1.94 Ah, 2.35 Wh, and 116 M at this 1 amp discharge rate.

The next time you go to grab the cells off the charger when the light turns green, remember you might be able to get an additional 10-20 minutes of run time (at a 1 amp load) by letting them trickle charge for a while.

I would suggest that for AA cells of around 1800-2500 mAh capacity, you can leave the cells on a Vanson charger for an additional 3 hours after the green light comes on (or 5 hours for the Titanium charger) to get that extra capacity.

I am quite pleased with the Titanium TG-700 and will be replacing my Radio Shack 13 hour charger with it while traveling. 

Edit: 1/23/05 added *Maha C-401FS* charger results. Thanks Brock for letting me borrow this unit.

The slow charge rate on the Maha C-401FS does a very good job of getting the most capacity into the batteries. The price is that it takes a bit longer to charge.

The fast charge rate on the Maha C-401FS is scary. Not only do the batteries heat up, but it appears that the slots charge unevenly. I will terminate the charge when the cells reach 130 degrees F. The cells on the Maha charger shot past 130 rapidly and as I was reaching to shut the charger down, the green light came on. The temperature continued to climb to 135 and was still going up when I pulled the cells from the charger and held them in my hand to cool them down. This is not new information, it has been reported several times before. I just want to confirm that it does happen and I believe constant use of this setting will reduce the life of your batteries.

On the other hand, if you need a quick "top off" to get a bit more capacity from partially used cells, the fast charge would give you extra capacity quickly. For example if you are out using your lights and run the batteries part way down. You could come in, take a short break, put the batteries on fast charge, pull them off the charger before they heat up, and go back out and have more fun. The "balanced charge" of the cells may be thrown off by this, but it might be worth a try to get some additional run time.

Brock sent me his charger and this observation is based on a sample of one. I did do two runs to verify the trend, and it appears that the C-401FS on fast charge delivers different charge rates to the different slots. I ran my first test and was surprised to see the scatter. I mixed up the batteries so they were charging in different slots, and got very similar results. The performance followed the slots, not the batteries. On this charger, slot 1 does the best, and slot 3 the worst.

Here is a graph of the results from the fast charge.






This is another reason not to use the fast charge option on the C-401FS. 

To sum up, the Maha C-401FS on slow does a great job of charging AA and AAA cells. It does not have a discharge function. On fast charge, cells get too hot and there is some inconsistency between the amount of charge for each slot. Overall a good charger, just be careful when using the fast charge option.

1/25/05 added results from the *Ccrane KC-983 Quick Charger.* Thanks Brock for letting me borrow this unit.

It did a good job charging. I noticed a slight reduction in capacity from slots 3 and 4, but it was not enough to worry about. With this charger you put a single cell in and check the condition of the cell with the lid open. To start charging, you need to close the lid. The charger first goes through a discharge cycle down to 1.0 volts, then a “soft start,” then a “fast charge,” ending up with a “trickle charge.” I believe it has independent channels, however, if you put another cell in to be charged in the middle of the charge cycle, it will start discharging the cell that was already in there. I guess it resets every time you open the lid. The batteries only got warm during charging.

1/28/05 added some results from the *Triton* charger/analyzer. Thanks Bwaites for letting me borrow this unit.

The Triton has so many features it would take some time to check them all out. I focused on the charging side. I have to say that it is one of the most versatile chargers out there. The Triton user manual states that you can do a better job of charging if you set the parameters rather than use the Auto settings. That is an understatement! The Triton on Auto mode is close to, if not THE, worst performer so far. If you get a Triton, take the time to figure out the settings. You will enjoy better performance from your batteries as a result.

I set the Triton for a 400 mA charge rate to get a good comparison with the other chargers in this test. It did almost as good as the full 24 hour charge on the Vanson. I ran additional tests at 1 amp and 2 amps and was surprised. There was very little reduction in the total capacity and the cells stayed below 100 degrees F. After testing the Maha on fast mode, I was expecting the cells to get hot at 2 amps, but they didn’t. The charging algorithm used in the Triton does a great job.

Some brief comments on the Triton’s other capabilities. I did several discharge tests and got results similar to what I am seeing with my CBA. I check the NiCd charging and discharging function and found it similar to the NiMh. I charged up my lead acid battery from my Pelican Big D without problems. People using the Triton report that it is a very good charger, but also it has a few minor quirks. That did not stop them from highly recommending it, but it will take a while to get used to it.

The Triton will also charge Li-Ion and Li-Poly cells and packs. There is some debate over the termination of the charge. To get a “full” charge on a Li-Ion cell, you need to charge to 4.2 volts and hold it there until the current drops way down. You do not trickle charge Li-Ion, but the last part of the charge is at a rate below most trickle charge rates. The price you pay for utilizing a “full” charge is reduced cycles. Charging to 4.2 volts gives you about 500 cycles. The Triton charges to 4.1 volts and does not seem to hold the final part of the charge long enough. Pulling a cell from the Triton saw the voltage drop from 4.1 volts to 3.9+ volts in about a half hour. My experience with other chargers is that a cell “fully” charged to 4.2 volts will drop to 4.185 volts in a week. The Triton does charge faster than my other chargers, but you end up with less capacity in the cell. 

There are a couple of advantages in terminating the charge early. You will heat the cell up more with you hand than with the Triton charging it, so I would suggest that it is safer. The other advantage is increased cycle life. A cell charged to 4.1 volts is estimated to give you around 1500 cycles.

I have only touched the surface of what the Triton is capable of, but my brief exposure to it has me planning to get one. Please understand that the Triton is designed for the RC community to field charge their battery packs. You hook it up to your car battery and away you go. To use the Triton in the workshop, you will need a separate power supply. Radio Shack sells an excellent 13.8 volt 15 amp unit that works well with the Triton.

1/29/05 I have added the results from the *Energizer 1 hour* charger. Thanks Brody.

This charger is pretty straight forward. Put the cells in, plug it in and go. I observed that with my Titanium 2400 AA test batteries it took 1 hr 17 minutes to charge. That is close to an hour. The temperature topped out at 110 degrees. It did a pretty respectable job of charging the batteries.

1/30/05 I have added the results from the *Lightning 4000N* charger. Thanks Brody.

This charger is very impressive. It is smaller than the Titan TG-700 and does a better job of indicating full charge. It has a discharge function and the cells stayed cool during charging. At the completion of charging it switches to a trickle charge mode. The trickle charge mode is different than others in that it does a high current pulse at a low cycle rate. Most chargers give a low current constant rate. You are cautioned not to “store” batteries on the charger for an extended period of time. Overcharging damage may result.

The down side is that it only runs on AC power. It is interesting that the manufacturer ( www.RipVan100.com ) has a bold headline that reads “No Car Adaptor Needed.” Another down side item is that it only does pairs of cells. It has two independent channels and each one hold two cells. You have to charge two batteries at a time. 

The publicized advantage of charging two cells at a time is that it tends to equalize them. I can see that this would be an advantage in devices that use pairs of batteries, but if you only use one at a time, the advantage is lost.

This is an excellent charger if you have no need for the ability to charge from your car, and don’t mind doing pairs at a time.

2/1/05 I have added the results from the *Ray O Vac IC3* charger. Thanks Underdog for letting me borrow your charger and batteries.

For the purpose of this evaluation, I am only including the results from charging my test Titanium 2400 mAh AA cells on the IC3 charger. In this application, the IC3 charger is simply at timed charger. You put the battery in, and in about 12 hours it is charged up and ready to go. I was very pleased with the “overnight” performance. It did a good job on non-IC3 cells. I would not purchase this system to charge normal NiMh batteries, but in a pinch it works quite well. This system is better utilized with the IC3 batteries.

The IC3 system testing (with the IC3 batteries) will be covered in a separate thread. It seems to work very well. If you need batteries in a hurry, this is the system for you.

2/6/05 *La Crosse Technology BC-900* Charger (available from Jon Burly)

It has modes that range from simple to complex.

In simple mode, just plug the cells in and come back the next day and they are ready to go. The charge rate of 200 mA is great for AAA cells and is OK for AA’s also. When the charge is complete, the LCD display shows FULL. In a perfect circuit a 2400 mAh AA battery should be fully charged in 12 hours, but figuring in losses, 14 hours is more realistic.

I could stop there and say this is a great charger… but there is more.

I will not go into all the details because there is another thread that pretty much spells out all the features. Suffice it to say that it offers: 
6 charge rates (from 200 mA to 1800 mA) and
6 discharge rates (from 100 mA to 900 mA) for AA cells.
3 charge rates (from 200 mA to 700 mA) and 
3 discharge rates (from 100 mA to 350 mA) for AAA cells.
A test mode.
A refresh mode.
And a display that gives you lot of information about the cell you are working with.

It has 4 independent slots and you can mix AAA and AA cells, NiCd and NiMh chemistries next to each other. You can even pick (with minor limitations) different charge and discharge rates for different slots. You can match cells for use in multi cell lights and check for weak cells. The refresh mode lets you break in new cells and revive old ones.

This charger is a true workhorse. 

I have issues with the absolute numbers it gives for capacities, but it is consistent from slot to slot and from cycle to cycle. I find it gives more uniform capacities if you start the test mode with a fully charged cell. 

It is too bad they don’t have one for C and D cells…

All of this and there is more. The charger comes in a handy carry bag along with 4 adapters. You can use your AA batteries in C and D cell applications. I have a 3 D Mag Mod by 3rd Shift (great light Stephen) and I have been using 9000 mAh D cells in it. The D cells weigh about 6 ounces each. The Titanium 2400 mAh AA cell along with the AA to D adapter weighs about 2 ounces. I pop 3 of these in and safe about 12 ounces when using the light. Granted the run time is less, but it still goes for a couple of hours and that is enough time for a lot of projects.

Not only does this charger have lots of features, it also does a good job of charging. I show that it came in very close to the best of all those tested.

What more can I say. I am very impressed.

2/15/05 I have added data from the AccuPower *AccuManager 20* Charger. Thanks Lureleven for letting me check this charger (and a number of cells) out.

We have a new winner. The Vanson BC-1HU (charging for 24 hours) held the lead for the most charged cells until now. The AccuManager 20 has done a better job in a shorter time. 

This charger has independent channels for 4 bays of round cells and two 9V bays. It will charge NiCd and NiMh chemistry in AAA, AA, C, D, and 9V sizes. It shares the same housing as the Vanson, but has a distinctive blue and yellow color. AccuPower claims they do not need a discharge function because the algorithm they use for charging will take care of any memory effect that is forming in NiCd or NiMh cells. 

The most significant claim is that the AccuManager 20 will charge up any capacity battery in one setting. The Vanson is only good to about 8000 mAh batteries. My 9000 mAh cells require a reset half way through the charge cycle. There is a shut off timer for safety, but it is set for something like 35 hours. This gives a theoretical charge limit of 24500 mAh. I tried 9000 mAh, 11000 mAh, and 12000 mAh cells and the AccuManager 20 had no problems charging them up.

Cells get warm while charging but do not get hot, and this charger seems to be able to get a full charge into the cells quite well. When the green light comes on, the cells are ready to go. You can leave them on for a maintenance trickle charge, but they are good to go when the light comes on (it actually goes from blinking while charging to steady on when finished). This may be a good replacement for the Vanson, especially when using high capacity batteries. 

4/12/05 Wayne at www.amondotech.com sent me some chargers to check out. The first one I pulled out was the *V4000.* This charger looks and performs exactly like the Lightning4000N. It does pairs of AA or AAA cells NiCd or NiMh chemistry. The test results were exactly the same as the Lightning4000N so I will not post the graphs. All in all a pretty nice charger if you use pairs of cells.

4/12/05 The Amondotech Titanium *TG1000* is a 4 channel charger for AA or AAA cells and NiMh or NiCd chemistry. It did a pretty good job of charging. It uses a cord to plug into the wall and is a little more bulky because of that.

4/12/05 The Amondotech Titanium *TG2800* is a great charger. It has 4 channels for AA or AAA cells, does NiMh and NiCd cells, and has a discharge function. It also has an LCD display that gives a graphic of a cell and an indication of the charge state. When you are discharging, the graphic goes down. When you are charging, the graphic goes up and shows the charge level in 4 segments. The LCD display is back lighted. This charger did almost as good as my Vanson after 24 hours. Very impressive. The plastic door comes off easily, but the charger works with out it just fine. Cells come off the charger at about 95 degrees F, then the charger goes into a trickle charge mode. Charging current is 2.0 amps max. This charger has replaced the TG700 as my travel charger, even though it is not designed to run on 12 volts. I’ll find a place to plug it in…

4/12/05 The reign of the AccuManager 20 has just been toppled. I just picked up a *Schulze isl 6-330d-RS.* It has a lot of the similar functions as the Triton. It is able to charge any type of battery or battery packs up to 30 cells NiCd or NiMh, up to 19 lead acid or gel cells (38 volts), up to 11 Li-Ion or Li-Po cells, up to 13 Lithium Manganese Oxide cells (whatever they are), and that is about it for the Battery 1 output. It also has a Battery 2 output that will do up to 6 NiMh or NiCd cells, 4 gel cell or lead acid cells (8 volts), and up to 3 of the Li-Ion, Li-Po, and Li-MO cells. This is quite the charger.

Like the Triton, the 330d requires a separate 13.8 volt battery or power supply. The manual suggests to not use a power supply, but there are a lot of people using them without problems (including me). I believe you need to make sure the power is clean and has a good capacity. I believe a 30 amp unit would be adequate. It works fine on a car battery and will even warn you if your battery voltage falls below 11.25 volts. The charger draws about 50 mA when idle.

Charge rates for Battery 1 output are up to 5.5 amps and 332 mA for the Battery 2 output. It also has a bunch of automatic programs including auto charge, auto discharge, auto CD, auto DC, and a cell former that does 3 cycles of charge discharge. Discharge rate is up to 1.0 amps in 8 steps. You can run both Battery 1 and Battery 2 outputs at the same time.

Like the Triton, the 330d has an auto program. The nice thing is that the Schulze algorithm actually works and does a good job of charging cells. The auto program starts off at a low charge, then ramps up to a higher charge, then ramps back down to finish. All the time it is shutting off for a moment to check the battery condition. I find the Auto program to be a bit slow, but it works well. On a single cell it spent a lot of time charging at 500-600 mA. 

This charger is designed for battery packs and the RC crowd. I can charge a single cell on it, but it takes some extra work. 2 cells and up are fine. You can not discharge a single NiMh or NiCd cell.

It does a great job on Li-Ion. The cells come off at 4.205 volts.

The instruction manual is a bit obtuse, but after a few times using the charger it starts to make sense. After that, it’s easy. I would say that if you just want to drop a cell in and have it charged up, the Schulze is not for you. If you are willing to spend a little time getting to know how it works, it is excellent.

There are many more features, but that covers some of the highlights. More information is available at www.schulze-elektronik-gmbh.com/index_uk.htm . They also have several big brothers to this unit.

The Triton is easier to figure out “right out of the box,” but the Schulze does a better job of charging. I also have a link to connect it to my computer for some data analysis (right up my alley  ). 

I do have one objection… The box it came in was a loud pink color, as is the labeling on the unit, as is the battery hook up leads. I am not sure what the Germans have in mind, but when I think of a “Manly Tool,” pink is not the first color that comes to mind… :nana: 

Check the graph out, we now have a new leader. This charger was able to push a little more in to my test cells (about 3.3% more). I am very impressed.

2/1/06 It has been my pleasure to check out the *Maha C808M* charger. This is a fantastic charger and I am very pleased with the way it performs. Please refer to my review of this charger in the reviews section. 

This charger is a very good performer. It charges AA, C, and D cells at 2 amps and keeps them cool while doing that. It also can charge at 1 amp by hitting the soft charge button. In addition, it has a discharge/conditioning cycle. 

I don’t recommend leaving cells on the charger, but if you want to do that, this is the charger to do it with. The trickle charge rate is low enough that I believe your cells would be safe left on it indefinitely. 

This charger utilizes an advanced charging algorithm that does a very good job of charging while also considering how to get the most cycles from your cells. As you can see from the results, it does not push the most capacity into the cells, but it is right up there with the top contenders. 

I will gladly trade a little capacity for the knowledge that my cells will last longer. This charger also does a good job of charging the high capacity D and C cells. At the other end of the size spectrum, it does a good job on AAA cells as well. 

Thank you William at Maha for providing this charger for evaluation. You have a real winner with it.

4/5/07 I have added the results for the *Duracell 15 Minute * charger. This charger is very similar to the Energizer 15 minute charger, and the results are also very similar. It is my opinion that because the Duracell 15 minute charger actually takes about 18 minutes to charge, it may be a little bit easier on your cells. I have not tested this, but the cells seem to end up a little cooler. 

The back of the Duracell unit is slightly arched, and the feet are longer than then Energizer unit. This allows for better air flow, and I think it is a design improvement.

If you need your cells in a hurry, the Duracell 15 minute charger joins up with the Energizer 15 minute charger to provide you with charged cells in a very short time. This charger, like the Energizer unit, is picky about cells that have developed higher internal resistance. If your cells are "crap," this charger will refuse to charge them.

4/5/07 I have also added the results for the * Maha C9000 Wizard One * charger/analyzer. The original version had some issues with termination and has been superseded by the improved version. This unit is giving the BC-900 a lot of competition, and offers a lot more flexibility.

You have to program each slot independently, and have charge rates ranging from 200 mA to 2000 ma in 100 mA steps, and discharge rates ranging from 100 mA to 1000 mA in 100 mA steps. You can use the Refresh/Analyze function to charge/discharge/charge your cells with a read out of the capacity on a large back-lit display. You can run up to 15 cycles selecting the charge and discharge rates you want. You can do a discharge only. This function even works with Alkaline cells, but is not recommended. 

One of the most beneficial features is the Break-In function. This function allows you to program in the capacity of the cell, then the C9000 will do a 0.1C charge for 16 hours, rest for 1 hour, a 0.2C discharge, followed by another 0.1C charge for 16 hours. This takes a long time, but your cells will perform better with this "forming" charge. Since the function starts with a charge, it is best to do a discharge first, but it is not totally necessary.

This is refereed to as a Standard Charge, and is the industry standard for determining the capacity of cells. This capacity is supposed to be what is labeled on the cell, but there seems to be some liberty taken with the current cells. Most of the current labels are "optimistic." This function will allow you to evaluate if the good deal you got on some high capacity labeled cells was really a good deal.

There is one caution. If your cells have higher internal resistance and you charge 4 cells at 2 amps, the charger, and your cells, will heat up. Even with cells in excellent condition, they will get hotter charging at these higher rates.

Another plus for the C9000 is that it can be powered from a 12 volt source. This makes it a good choice for remote and emergency situations.

Excellent charger/analyzer and I highly recommend it.


Tom


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## Ginseng

Nice data Tom,

Do you have a MAHA C-401FS to test? That unit is regarded by some as a very well performing unit.

Wilkey


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## SilverFox

Hello Wilkey,

Thanks for your comments. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

I don't have any MAHA units. In the future I may have to do a more complete comparison of chargers. 

I believe the Vanson is working well enough to start a comparison of NiMh cells, which is next on my list of fun things to do...

Tom


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## Brock

Tom do you want me to send you a 401 and a ccrane for a trial run?


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## Ginseng

Wow,
You are building a nice database of information Tom. I'd like to see the battery and charger test threads stickied.
Wilkey


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## SilverFox

Hello Brock,

That would be great.

I found out while testing the Alkaline's and CR123's that several people on CPF were willing to send me cells to check out. Some brands I was not able to come up with and I think it rounded out the data base as well as some cross checks through doing more runs.

The whole purpose of purchasing my CBA was to evaluate rechargeable cells. I feel I have developed a good testing methodology, now I am working on a sound charging methodology.

I believe I have a procedure that is controlled, repeatable, and will work for our use. Feel free to comment and offer improvements, however let's keep it practical.

The vast number of rechargeable cells around makes me think that it would not be economically feasible for me to put together much of a comparison. Primary cells I can eventually use up, secondary cells seem to last quite a bit longer.

I am thinking I may call upon the people at CPF to give me a hand in this project. I could start with what I have, then ask others to ship me a few of their different cells for testing. I would then return the cells and add the results to the data base.

Another option would be to take a poll of what brands people are using and just cover the most popular ones...

Comments and suggestins are welcome.

Tom


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## bwaites

I think adding a few more chargers might also help.

Maybe a Triton?

I could probably afford to send mine for a few days or a week!

Bill


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## udaman

[ QUOTE ]
*SilverFox said:*
Hello Wilkey,

Thanks for your comments. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

I don't have any MAHA units. In the future I may have to do a more complete comparison of chargers. 

I believe the Vanson is working well enough to start a comparison of NiMh cells, which is next on my list of fun things to do...

Tom 

[/ QUOTE ]

SilverFox,

1. Would you be up to testing several more chargers of NiMH's, and would you be only testing standard consumer NiMH's; or more specifically, then new 2500ma Sanyo/Energizer, 15min Rayovac IC3, high-current type like KAN or CBP1650ma NiMH's?

I am wondering how well these new 15min chargers do at such quick charge rates.

2. I'll assume you have read these items, but for reference purposes:

Initial post to The SF M6-R: a regulated rechargeable SF M6 thread

[ QUOTE ]
*js states:*"There are two especially nice things about the 712. One is that it is a zero delta V peak detect circuit, which means that if for some reason it fails to detect end of charge the first time, it has an infinite number of chances after that. The negative delta V circuit, on the other hand, will wait until it sees a voltage drop, so it only has one chance. The other nice thing about the 712 is that it switches over to a gentle C/16 slow charge after the completion of fast charging, and will thus equalize all the cells if they need it, and will maintain the battery pack at full charge until you go to use it. Even so, the current is not low enough to allow you to leave the pack connected to the charger 24/7, and it should be removed after no longer than several hours of trickle charging."

[/ QUOTE ]

This does not make to much sense to me, if the 712 based charger could 'maintain...until you go to use it', then why should it be removed after no longer than several hours of trickle?

But here on imaging-resource.com, The Great Battery Shootout!, by Dave Etchellsthe author recommends longer trickle to top off, and that different chargers do better than others. And here we have a problem with making generalizations, I think.

[ QUOTE ]

For now, my standard recommendation is still the Maha C204 charger, with one or two Maha 2A4 trickle-charge units to "top off" the batteries for those of you who absolutely must have the last possible iota of juice crammed into your batteries.

/ / /

(The problem is that charger behavior seems to vary a fair bit with the cells being charged. Completeness of charge seems to be fairly consistent across multiple battery models, but temperature profiles are all over the map. A charger that seems to overheat one brand/model of battery does just fine on others. On the other hand, an otherwise well-behaved charger will overheat one particular brand/model of cell. Some chargers do seem to be "hotter" or "cooler" than others, but it's tough to develop the level of objective quantification I like to see in my reviews.)

[/ QUOTE ]
So I wonder just how accurate this data will be if you only use the Vanson (meaning it _*should*_ be good for those who have a Vanson, but _*could be*_ all off for those who don't have it...noting the author of this test, only compared a small sample of chargers for completeness of charge).


3. We know that the RC style chargers use different charging algorithms, as well as having adjustable negative delta V capabilities---which could affect completeness of charge; and sometimes software updates with corrected/newer algorithms are issued. Perhaps this is what accounts for differences between them all. Any chance you would be testing batteries charged by one of these RC style chargers, maybe someone could loan you a Triton for this?


/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif

5. I had planned to buy the 4-cell independent, w/LCD status for each, channel Uniross 15min charger/battery system. While they are now selling Uniross batteries that are supposed to be 'designed' for 15min charging, a year ago they were doing prepress on how there would be a Uniross 15min charger that would charge any NiMH, much like Energizer is now claiming of their new 15min charger.

The big CES in Las Vegas starts tomorrow (Jan 6.) so I am waiting on purchase of new cells, in anticipation or just in case of some announcement.

Edit: note to self, triple check posts before posting when sick with cold virus, brain not working /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif, Corrected link to imaging-resource.com


----------



## SilverFox

Hello Bill,

I would love to compare the Triton.

I would also ask you for some general set up guidelines. I believe I could spend a whole week and still not explore all of the Triton options.

Thanks,

Tom


----------



## MoonRise

Tom,

First, thanks for doing all this testing. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/bowdown.gif

Next, keep in mind that charging a cell is not a linear process and different chargers may be set to different levels of "full" for when the little green light comes on.

Getting the majority of the charge into the cell is the relatively easy and quick part. It's the getting that last 5% or 10% or 25% that takes longer. IIRC, another charger 'shoot-out' comparison showed that it took about 24 hours on low/trickle to get the cells to nearly 100% charge, but 80+% could be done in one or two hours or so. 

Ah, here is the link to a Charger comparison


----------



## SilverFox

Hello Udaman,

I am open to testing a wide variety of chargers and AA cells, I just don't want to have to purchase them. This is why I would like to "borrow" from fellow CPF'ers.

I am curious about the 15 minute chargers as well. I have to think that they do not completely charge the cells, but perhaps 80-90% is adequate.

I have spent nearly 2 years getting to know my Vanson and feel very confident in it's ability. I offer it as a benchmark comparison simply because it is what I have. I believe there are a variety of chargers that will work well, and also know that there are differences between brands and between similar models of the same brand.

The same variability extends to the cells as well. 

There are a lot of considerations that go into purchasing a charger. I would mostly be focusing on how to get a "complete" charge for each individual charger. I will measure this by a constant current discharge of the cell after charging.

The Uniross charger looks interesting as well. Any idea on what the capacity of their cells are?

Tom


----------



## SilverFox

Hello Mike,

Excellent article. Perhaps all we have to do is to leave the cells on charge for 24 hours and go with that...

The heat issue is also something I have been thinking about.

I believe we could add to his results by offering a wider variety of chargers to compare. I think among the people here, we should be able to come up with 15-20 different chargers to check out.

Tom


----------



## PlayboyJoeShmoe

Cool! I just ordered some Maha 2A4 chargers to charge/keep some cells.

Someday I will find my CCrane QC in all that mess at the storage place!

But I have two cheapy wall chargers that I really don't trust right now available...


----------



## Brock

Well my two favorite chargers are the Vanson and the 401 (slow mode). So I would be interested to see how they rate after they say the battery is "full" and then again after 24 hours. I have a feeling after 24 hours they would be very close to the same results, but fresh out of the charger would be interesting as well.


----------



## wasBlinded

Here is a good discussion of Nickel battery charging schemes:

http://www.batteryuniversity.com/partone-11.htm

And here is a good discussion of Lithium Ion charging schemes:

http://www.batteryuniversity.com/partone-12.htm

A lot will depend on when the particular charger decides it is time to turn on the "Charged" light.


----------



## koala

I have this Titanium TG1000 charger which is from the same manufacturer as Tom's(Silverfox) Titanium charger. 

I also have a Sony BCG-34HNB2 1-hour charger.
And a Triton charger if my friend let me have it back /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon23.gif 

I will be getting a Maha C401FS in a week or so because the $%^@#$#^ *intelligent* Titanium TG1000 charger keep shutting down when I load it with high capacity 2300mah cells. At first I have to put a fan(the batteries are not hot, just slightly warm) beside it so it won't shutdown. In the end, I drill numerous holes around the case where the electronics are. It did fix the problem but it still shutdown ocassionally. It seems to be stable with 2 cells. The TG1000 never have any problem with lower <2300mah capacity cells.

So I will also do a charger comparism in the near future.

-vince.


----------



## SilverFox

I have just finished testing the Maha C-401FS. In slow mode it did very well. In fast mode the batteries got very hot and I noticed an inconsistency between slots.

See the first post for details and graphs.

Tom


----------



## Brock

Nice! I know you don't want to test them all in overnight, but I am still curious /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif For me i't just the 1HU and the 401 in slow. Again I bet they would be fully charged and very very close. 

Hey maybe just let one of them do an overnight and throw it in the chart just so we know what a _full_ charge looks like?


----------



## Brock

Tom did you have the cover off on the 401 in fast mode? I would assume yes, but just checking.


----------



## Brock

I just had yet another thought; did you by chance time them from in to green? I know, I know, I am horrible and making you work way too much, if you didn't time it don't worry about it.


----------



## SilverFox

Hello Brock,

First let me thank you for letting me borrow your charger(s). /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

I did have the cover open during the fast charge.

I believe the issue of charge time would be related to the capacity of the cell being charged. For this reason, I have chosen not to measure that.

However, just for you, I will set a timer and check it out. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

I narrowed the focus of this test to check what the various charger manufacturers thought was a "full charge" this is why I am testing when the green light comes on. I will put a graph up of the Vanson and the C-401FS after 24 hours. I believe they should come out the same. Previous tests done by others indicates that after 24 hours (with the exception of one model of a Sony charger) all of the cells equalized out at full capacity.

Tom


----------



## Brock

[ QUOTE ]
However, just for you, I will set a timer and check it out. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif 

[/ QUOTE ]

Don't run a special one just for me, just if you happen to run anymore. I already feel special enough /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif


----------



## SilverFox

Hello Brock,

The green light comes on in about 7 hours on the Maha C-401FS in slow, and in about 5 1/2 hours on the Vanson BC-1HU.

I will post the results of the "24 hour" charge later.

Tom


----------



## wptski

[ QUOTE ]
*SilverFox said:*
Hello Brock,

The green light comes on in about 7 hours on the Maha C-401FS in slow, and in about 5 1/2 hours on the Vanson BC-1HU.

I will post the results of the "24 hour" charge later.

Tom 

[/ QUOTE ]
Tom:

The C401FS charges at 300ma is slow, 7x300=2100. Isn't that about right? What's the charge rate on the Vanson?


----------



## SilverFox

Hello Bill,

The charge rate on the Vanson is 500 ma/h. That doesn't work out the same, but perhaps the Vanson put a little extra in...

Tom


----------



## SilverFox

Hello Brock,

I have added the results from the Maha and Vanson after letting the battery charge for 24 hours. The Maha was almost exactually the same as when the green light came on. The Vanson picked up a little bit extra capacity.

Tom


----------



## SilverFox

Update:

I have added the results from the CCrane KC-983 Quick Charger. It seems to do a good job as well.

I forgot to add, Thanks Brock for letting me borrow this charger.

Tom


----------



## milkyspit

Tom,

Your efforts here have been great. It's really helpful for lots of us in choosing a good charger! Thank you for the time you've been putting into all this.
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbsup.gif

I've been using the Rayovac IC3 15-minute charger (both the 4 channel regular version and the 2 channel "travel" version) for a while now, and have been quite pleased with this system. In fact, it's what finally brought me into the NiMH world, because now I can give my cells a quick freshening minutes before I'm ready to go out the door. That's a very appealing capability! I would be interested in seeing how these chargers and their associated cells stack up against the others.

A couple notes on the IC3 system: one is that it supposedly trickle charges non-IC3 cells, so it can charge pretty much anything but only the IC3's in 15 minutes. Also, the AA cells are rated at 2000mAh... I have a hunch that they're actually higher capacity cells and have been de-rated based on the capacity that's achieved in that 15 minute recharge interval... no hard evidence of this, it's just a suspicion. I'd love to find out if this is really true!

In other chargers, I've also been using the Energizer 30 minute charger, which supposedly can charge any brand in 30 minutes or so. Would love to see how that one fares! My guess would be that it would do a better job than the Energizer 15 minute unit, and probably lead to longer cell life overall based on decreased heat generation within the cells. But maybe the testing would turn up some surprises! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

I'd LOVE to see how the Triton does in charging various types of cells. If it's really the star performer that it's reputed to be, I might drop the cash to get one! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ooo.gif

Finally, what about that new charger that JSBurly has started selling? The feature set looks great! I'd like to see that one put through its paces, too.

Sorry to give you so much more work here! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon15.gif But believe me; your efforts are MUCH appreciated.

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/bowdown.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/bowdown.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/bowdown.gif


----------



## SilverFox

Hello Scott,

I have someone sending me an Energizer charger, but do not have any of the IC3 systems. I have a bit of a problem with them. You have to use special cells to get the best performance. I have tried to eliminate that variable by using the same cells for every test. If you want to let me "borrow" your Ray O Vac, I would be happy to evaluate it with my Titanium 2400 cells. I could probably do a run with the IC3 cells also for a rough comparison.

The Triton and La Crosse BC-900 chargers are in the process of being evaluated. These chargers have too many features for me to cover them all, so I am narrowing my focus to their ability to charge a cell and how complete the charge is when they switch from charge to trickle.

The Triton has a lot more flexibility and seems to be a solid unit. My only complaint (in my limited time with it - it belongs to BWaites and he is letting me borrow it) is that it is conservative when charging Li-Ion cells and packs. It terminates the charge at 4.1 volts. The difference is that the capacity of the cell is reduced. I have shown better than 30% more capacity in a cell when charging it to 4.2 volts rather than 4.1 volts. On the up side, the cells charged to 4.2 volts are good for about 500 cycles where those charged to 4.1 volts are good for 1500 cycles. The question is Which would you rather have, capacity or cycles?

Bill thinks there may be an upgrade that will improve the Triton Li-Ion charging algorithm, but we are not sure about that.

For NiCd, NiMh, and Lead Acid batteries and packs, the Triton is most excellent. I think I may get one for myself.

One other thing, the Triton cooling fan is a bit noisy in an "office" setting. No problems in the workshop, but you notice it when everything is quiet.

Tom


----------



## milkyspit

Tom, the only problem with me sending you my IC3 charger is that I use it quite a bit! Between that and shipping costs, it would almost be easier simply to buy you a brand new one, or forward the money to you to purchase one yourself at your local Walmart. I'd suggest the 4 channel model rather than the travel model, only because I'm guessing the electronics might be marginally better. (Just a gut feeling, with nothing to support it.)
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon3.gif

Hey all my CPF brethren! Anyone want to pitch in to fund SilverFox buying an IC3 charger for testing purposes? I think they cost about $20 and come with a pair of IC3 AA NiMH cells. Maybe he could sell the charger on B/S/T when testing is complete and donate the funds to CPF.

Any takers? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thinking.gif


----------



## wptski

[ QUOTE ]
*SilverFox said:*
Hello Scott,

I have someone sending me an Energizer charger, but do not have any of the IC3 systems. I have a bit of a problem with them. You have to use special cells to get the best performance. I have tried to eliminate that variable by using the same cells for every test. If you want to let me "borrow" your Ray O Vac, I would be happy to evaluate it with my Titanium 2400 cells. I could probably do a run with the IC3 cells also for a rough comparison.

The Triton and La Crosse BC-900 chargers are in the process of being evaluated. These chargers have too many features for me to cover them all, so I am narrowing my focus to their ability to charge a cell and how complete the charge is when they switch from charge to trickle.

The Triton has a lot more flexibility and seems to be a solid unit. My only complaint (in my limited time with it - it belongs to BWaites and he is letting me borrow it) is that it is conservative when charging Li-Ion cells and packs. It terminates the charge at 4.1 volts. The difference is that the capacity of the cell is reduced. I have shown better than 30% more capacity in a cell when charging it to 4.2 volts rather than 4.1 volts. On the up side, the cells charged to 4.2 volts are good for about 500 cycles where those charged to 4.1 volts are good for 1500 cycles. The question is Which would you rather have, capacity or cycles?

Bill thinks there may be an upgrade that will improve the Triton Li-Ion charging algorithm, but we are not sure about that.

For NiCd, NiMh, and Lead Acid batteries and packs, the Triton is most excellent. I think I may get one for myself.

One other thing, the Triton cooling fan is a bit noisy in an "office" setting. No problems in the workshop, but you notice it when everything is quiet.

Tom 

[/ QUOTE ]
Tom:

There is only supposed to be a 10% difference between charging to 4.2V instead of 4.1V. Wonder why you got 30%?


----------



## SilverFox

Hello Bill,

There are a lot of variables. Perhaps I screwed up my math...

Here is the set up:
Sony 18650 of unknown capacity
Charged to 4.2 volts (Universal Charger 0.5 amps) I get 0.682 Ah over 5 runs.
Charged to 4.1 volts (Trident Charger 0.5 amps) I get 0.487 Ah over 5 runs.
Discharge rate is 1.5 amps.

Does that work out to "better than 30%?"

Tom


----------



## milkyspit

It might be that the percentage difference in capacity between 4.1V and 4.2V varies based on the discharge rate. That might explain the discrepancy between the 10% and 30% figure.
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thinking.gif


----------



## wptski

[ QUOTE ]
*SilverFox said:*
Hello Bill,

There are a lot of variables. Perhaps I screwed up my math...

Here is the set up:
Sony 18650 of unknown capacity
Charged to 4.2 volts (Universal Charger 0.5 amps) I get 0.682 Ah over 5 runs.
Charged to 4.1 volts (Trident Charger 0.5 amps) I get 0.487 Ah over 5 runs.
Discharge rate is 1.5 amps.

Does that work out to "better than 30%?"

Tom 

[/ QUOTE ]
Tom:

That's like 40%!


----------



## RussH

Hey Milky, I'd be willing to kick in a couple of bucks to get Silverfox an IC3 charger. As far as I'm concerned, the info he has already provided is worth that much to me. I've decided to stay away from really fast chargers like the IC3 but I'm interested in the data for comparison as well as the batteries. The 'fast charge' batteries should be good for higher discharge rates, too, which would imply lower internal resistance and higher efficiency/lower heating. 

I just bought some Duracell batteries (2050mah) like the ones sold with their 30 min. charger (but not the charger) and I'll be looking to test them after they are broken in. This is my excuse to buy a new charger (BC900?) from jsburley....and that's another charger I'd like to see tested.


----------



## milkyspit

RussH, cool. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif If we could get a few more people to chip in, we'd be done! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

If we're going to Paypal the funds, though, that "couple of bucks" would probably need to be more like $5... otherwise Paypal would keep a ridiculously large percentage of the money for itself! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/jpshakehead.gif


----------



## Doug S

[ QUOTE ]
*SilverFox said:*
Hello Bill,

There are a lot of variables. Perhaps I screwed up my math...

Here is the set up:
Sony 18650 of unknown capacity
Charged to 4.2 volts (Universal Charger 0.5 amps) I get 0.682 Ah over 5 runs.
Charged to 4.1 volts (Trident Charger 0.5 amps) I get 0.487 Ah over 5 runs.
Discharge rate is 1.5 amps.

Does that work out to "better than 30%?"

Tom 

[/ QUOTE ]
Tom, I don't think you have a math problem so much as a cell problem. Even really antique 18650 size cells had rated capacities of 1300mAHr. Since you are only getting about half that amount, I would say that these are bad cells. I agree with those that are suggesting that a difference of only 10-15% is to be expected from 4.10 vs 4.20V termination.


----------



## rdshores

I'll send Silverfox $5.00. Tell me where.


----------



## Brock

Thanks for all the work. I tend to use the 401 in slow, but now I feel a lot more comfortable using either the 401 or the Vanson. All good info.

Thanks again!!!


----------



## Tweek

Perhaps I'll have to use one of my 2400mAh 18650's and my Triton and attempt a 4.1/4.2 comparison test. It does sound like you guys would be interested in the results.

Chris


----------



## PeLu

[ QUOTE ]
*RussH said:* I'd be willing to kick in a couple of bucks to get Silverfox an IC3 charger. 

[/ QUOTE ]

Try to get the new one as soon as it is available in the US. According to my tests it looks also very good for 'normal' cells. 


Further: For the 4.1V/4.2V discrepancy: I fully agree with DougS. It has to be a faulty cell. They could have lots of strange behaviour.


----------



## SilverFox

Hello Scott,

Underdog lives close to me and is willing to send me his IC3 charger and batteries.

Thanks everyone for your offers, but that need has been taken care of.

Tom


----------



## SilverFox

Hello Doug and Peter,

I believe the reduced capacity on these cells is caused by the 1.5 amp discharge rate. I will do some testing at a different rate and see what I get. The discharge curve suggests that they are really being pushed at 1.5 amps.

I only have a limited experience with bad Li-Ion cells (I have only managed to kill 5 of them so far...), but I generally notice erratic results from them when they go bad. These cells show the same capacity every cycle. 

Perhaps there is a problem with my procedure. I charged the cell on the Triton, then discharged it on the Triton. I used 1.5 amps as a discharge rate because I had some data at that rate while evaluating battery combinations for the U2. I noticed a difference in capacity, so I decided to do another run. Same results. I then charged the cell on the Triton and when it was done, moved it over to my Universal Charger. I measured 4.12 volts when the Triton was finished, and it was slowly dropping. After charging on the Universal Charger, I ran a discharge on the Triton and got much better results. I then decided that I should better statistics and ended up doing a total of 5 runs on each charger. All discharging was done on the Triton and the results were very consistent.

The cells are marked Sony Energytec US18650S GA. Doug, are you sure about the 1300 mA rating? Any idea at what discharge rate they were rated at? 0.5C ?

Tom


----------



## SilverFox

Hello Chris,

Let's coordinate on parameters and see if we get comparable results.

18650 2400mAh
Charge rate of 1.0 amps
Discharge rate of 1.5 amps

Looking for the capacity difference between a charge termination of 4.1 vs 4.2 volts.

Does that sound good?

Tom


----------



## SilverFox

Update: I have added the Triton test results and some comments. Thanks BWaites for letting me borrow your Triton. How did you get along without it?

This is an excellent charger/analyzer. It has far to many features for me to cover them all, but I think it is one of the bests for NiCd and NiMh cells and packs.

It also does Li-Ion, Li-Poly and lead acid.

Tom


----------



## Doug S

[ QUOTE ]
*SilverFox said:*
The cells are marked Sony Energytec US18650S GA. Doug, are you sure about the 1300 mA rating? Any idea at what discharge rate they were rated at? 0.5C ?

Tom 

[/ QUOTE ]

Tom, if you go back far enough, 8 years are so, Sony did make a 18650 size cell that was either 1200 or 1250mAHr. In current production the lowest offered is 1500mAHr. Sony rates their cell capacity at 0.2C. If a Li-ion cell is in good condition you will see only a 5% or so reduction at 1C vs 0.2C. This reduction was a bit higher with the older "hard carbon" technology and tended to increase with cell aging.


----------



## Tweek

[ QUOTE ]
*SilverFox said:*
Hello Chris,

Let's coordinate on parameters and see if we get comparable results.

18650 2400mAh
Charge rate of 1.0 amps
Discharge rate of 1.5 amps

Looking for the capacity difference between a charge termination of 4.1 vs 4.2 volts.

Does that sound good?

Tom 

[/ QUOTE ]

Sounds good. I'll start on the charge/discharge with the Triton part now. My one good variable power supply died an as-yet-not-understood death yesterday, so I can at least get something going.

Chris


----------



## udaman

Sorry, I have not had time to keep up with this thread.

If you do a Google search on the Triton you will find an RC forum notation from some member who toasted his Li-Poly pack (expensive) using the Triton, IIRC, some problem having to do with some type of irregularity in the power supply being used. Some with broadband, and lots of time on their hands can look this up.

I see various threads on these RC type chargers where there are pluses and minuses to almost all of them, I would be do a bit of good, SilverFox, if you have time to link to these threads (assuming you can find all of them) and maybe post some information about them. I suppose like most things, there are differing experiences and opinions. I know the high-end charger guys who have tried lots of RC chargers tend to favor the top of the line Orbit or Shultz chargers over the Triton. RC users are more demanding, I think, on these chargers; you will find that almost all of these small manufacturers need some fix for the chargers, including the Tritons'; to address some issue or problem that comes up with extended use/feedback from users in the field.

Here's a few links I have bookmarked. But like I said, I don't have the time to research this and catch up on all the other CPF threads and projects I need to work on; and I have no idea what why I bookmarked these links.

RC Central - Reedy Quasar Pro - Great Product, Cheesy Name

RC Central - MRC Super Brain 959

The-RC-Zone.com - mrc superbrain 969

RCMicroFlight.com - March 2003 Table Of Contents

Product Review RCM January '02

RunRyder - Astro 109 or Triton

MRC Super Brain 969 AC/DC Dual-Mode Delta Peak Charger - MRC RB969

I am in need of several chargers(not just for myself), so I'm probably going to order both the Sakar 8.5min charger when it becomes available & that Uniross 15min http://www.energyfederation.org/consumer/default.php/cPath/401_444_1029. To save on shipping charges, shoot me a mailing address in a PM, and I'll have it sent directly to you. Test for a few weeks, then if they suck, I can have you ship them to some friends as gifts /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

I suspect that all of these fast chargers that get the batteries hot enough, shorten the number of charges you get from them and reduce capacity. I'm wondering if there is an actual possibility of premature damage. I have 7 year old 1300ma generic Chinese made AA's that seem to still work, but must be on their last legs as the sometimes get drained below 0.8v and take forever to come up to charge while getting very hot (but less than 50 or so cycles) by a Maha C204F

That does not really concern many who will give up reduced life/cycles for the convenience of needing the NiMH quickly charged up to full... after they forget to keep them charged and they self-discharge to useless levels (oh I suppose that never happens to Ginseng or bwaites and other hotwire gurus, and as such the benefits of Li-Ion slow self-discharge is not so important to them)

Do you have enough CBP1650ma AA's to test? I could order some with tabs for you to play with for a few weeks also? Do you have both Sanyo (not Energizer branded) 2100ma & 2500ma to test?


----------



## SilverFox

Hello Doug,

I got these cells from a cell phone battery pack. It was a free promotion add on. The pack was never used because of a broken connection on the circuit board (and it was a bit on the fat side for my holster). They have been in my possession for about 3 years.

When I first went to charge them, I measured 3.8+ volts. They charge up to 4.2 volts and settle in at around 4.19 volts. I have put about 20 cycles on them.

I'll do a test at 1.0 amps and see if the capacity ends up closer to 1200 mAh.

Thanks for your help on this.

Tom


----------



## SilverFox

Hello Chris,

Sounds like a plan.

Off to the chargers/dischargers/analyzers... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Tom


----------



## SilverFox

Hello Udaman,

I would love to get my hands on a Schulze ISL 6-636+, but at $480 I think I'll go and buy a couple of U2's...

I have a Ray O Vac IC3 charger headed my way. Do you think the Uniross is going to be significantly different? I'll PM my address to you, but you may want to hold off until I test the Ray O Vac.

I decided to test chargers before batteries. I figured the best batteries are only as good as what they are charges used to charge them. I will be doing rechargeable batteries at a later time. At that time I will ask people to let me "borrow" different brands for a few test runs.

Thanks for your offer.

Tom


----------



## SilverFox

Update:

I have added the results from an Energizer 1 hour charger (thanks Brody).

It did a pretty good job and the cells did not overheat.

Tom


----------



## Ginseng

I just now got caught up with this thread and I have to say KUDOS! Great work Tom. Thank you for putting in so much time. I'm glad to see that my investment in the Triton is founded. Its performance has been flawless so far and I am very pleased. I new that it really wrings the most out of your cells without stressing them too much and it's nice to be able to see that in graphical form.

Thanks again,
Wilkey


----------



## SilverFox

Hello Wilkey,

Thanks.

Just don't use Auto mode... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Tom


----------



## SilverFox

Update:

I have added the results from the Lightning Pack 4000N charger. Thanks Brody for letting me borrow it.

It features small compact size and a discharge function. "No Car Adaptor Needed" because it only works on AC. 4 slots, 2 independent channels. It charges in pairs.

It did a good job of getting a full charge and the batteries stayed cool. 

If you don't mind charging in pairs and have access to AC power, this is a great charger.

Tom


----------



## SilverFox

Hello Chris,

Here are my results from charging an LG 18650 2400 mAh cell and terminating the charge at 4.2 volts and 4.1 volts.

I did a couple of runs and they seem to be quite close.







My Sony 18650 cells have a gradual drop off (rather than the sharp drop off the LG cells show here) at the 3.0 volt test termination. I believe this is why the large difference in capacity was observed. A few minutes less charge seems to have a larger impact on the Sony cells. Doug and Peter may be correct. The Sony cells seem to be behaving differently. I'll try to get a graph of the Sony cells and show the difference in the discharge curve.

At any rate, I see a little over 12% difference between the two charge termination voltages. I guess it comes down to whether or not you need the extra 10 minutes.

Tom


----------



## SilverFox

Hello Doug and Peter,

I took a big stick and I could only coax a little over 1000 mAh from my Sony 18650's. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

The discharge graph starts and ends "normal," but in the middle it looks like an alkaline discharge curve. Any idea what may cause this?






*Warning:*
Over discharging a Li-Ion cell can damage it.

I am surprised that this cell came back after two of these grueling cycles. It appears to be performing the same as it was before the deep cycles.

Tom


----------



## Tweek

Well, I've now run a cell through several charge-discharge cycles using just my Triton for both functions. I didn't graph the data, but I did use my Fluke to record the end of charge peak voltage, which wound up being 4.212V every single time... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif Within about 5 minutes after charge termination, the cell voltage would drop a bit, and stabilize at 4.175V each time as well. Discharge termination voltage was also very repeatable, I measured it as cutting off at 3.036V every time. I did note more of an oddity in the recorded mAh in and out than I was expecting, though. I think this particular cell might be suffering an accelerated death, it is the one I thrashed on to determine the max rate of discharge for these cells. Anyway, some more numbers:

Charge 1: 2088mAh
Discharge 1: 2097mAh
Charge 2: 2069mAh
Discharge 2: 2076mAh
Charge 3: 2056mAh
Discharge 3: 2070mAh
Charge 4: 2050mAh
Discharge 4: 2061mAh
Charge 5: 2042mAh
Discharge 5: 2053mAh

It seems to be losing some capacity with each cycle, which is odd. I plan on cycling it some more, this time using the CBA to discharge, with the same settings. That'll be a bit before I can start that though, I'm currently trying to trickle an old Motoroal Saber pack back to life with the Triton... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

I can't for the life of me figure out what killed my power supply, but the control board is hosed, and the output pass transistors are blown too. Guess I'll have to get a new one. Glad it was a freebie! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Chris


----------



## Doug S

[ QUOTE ]
*SilverFox said:*
Hello Doug and Peter,

I took a big stick and I could only coax a little over 1000 mAh from my Sony 18650's. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

The discharge graph starts and ends "normal," but in the middle it looks like an alkaline discharge curve. Any idea what may cause this?



[/ QUOTE ]
Yes. This curve look like that of an old tired cell. Note that the midpoint voltage is fairly low indicating increased internal resistance.

[ QUOTE ]
*SilverFox said:*
I am surprised that this cell came back after two of these grueling cycles. It appears to be performing the same as it was before the deep cycles.

Tom 

[/ QUOTE ]
Curiously going a bit below 2V at a high rate is not as damaging as it is at a low rate. The reason for this is that the internal resistance rises at end of discharge. At a high rate, you are seeing a terminal voltage that is the cell internal "electro-chemical voltage" minus the voltage drop of the discharge current thru the internal resistance. This electro-chemical voltage is what determines the damage thresholds. At low discharge rates the terminal voltage and internal electro-chemical voltage will be closer in value.


----------



## SilverFox

Hello Chris,

It looks like our numbers are quite close.

I am interested in what you get at 4.1 volts.

The Triton that I was using terminated at 4.12 volts and the cells drifted down a little from there. It seems yours is a bit higher.

Tom


----------



## SilverFox

Hello Doug,

I was wondering how that worked.

I did notice that the cell temperature rose from 74 F to 78 F at the end of the discharge cycle. That would also indicate higher internal resistance. I was surprised the cells bounced back to 2.9 volts very quickly after the test. I guess I was expecting them to just "roll over and die."

I can see how a slight change in initial charge would make the difference in the numbers I measured earlier. The slope is a bit flat when you terminate at 3 volts. A slightly higher starting voltage could result in a 30% change in capacity (or as it seems in this case a lack of capacity). I wonder if I could shake up the ions inside and get more capacity... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/evilgrin07.gif

Tom


----------



## Bullzeyebill

I will be happy when you get around to testing C and D chargers. I have the Vanson BC-1HU and I have never been able to charge my 9A D's to 1.4 volts. I have tried fooling the 11.5hr timer by pulling the power cord, and reinserting to no avail. The Triton sounds great but you have to rig up battery holders for loose cells.

Bill


----------



## SilverFox

Hello Bill,

My 9.0 Ah D cells and 4.2 Ah C cells come off the Vanson at 1.43 volts.

When I run the D cells all the way down, I usually put them in the charger for 3-4 hours, then pull the plug and re-plug to start the timer over again. 

I usually leave the cells in the charger for about a half hour after the green light comes on.

What are you doing? What brand of battery? How are you using them? How old are they?

Tom


----------



## SilverFox

Update:

I have added the test results from charging my Titanium 2400 AA's in the Ray O Vac IC3 charger. 

Thanks Underdog for letting me borrow your charger and batteries.

The IC3 system is very impressive. I will go into a detailed review in a separate thread. If you need batteries in a hurry, you should check this system out.

With non-IC3 batteries, this charger is a simple timed charger. Put the cells in and "overnight" they are ready for use. I did not leave them on for an extended period of time to see if the charger would over charge them, but in general it is not good to leave batteries on the charger for an extended period of time.

More details on this charger will be posted in a separate thread in the near future.

Tom


----------



## milkyspit

Tom, could you do us a favor and announce the new IC3 thread over here once it exists? That way we won't miss it! I really really REALLY want to read it (big fan of the IC3 technology) and have this sneaky feeling that I'm not going to see your IC3 writeup unless you announce it here. (I've got this thread marked for email notifications.) Thank you kind sir! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grinser2.gif


----------



## SilverFox

Hello Scott,

No problem.

I am working on the graphs right now. I am not sure if I can get everything done tonight, but it should be up by sometime tomorrow at the latest.

[Tantalize Mode On] This system is very impressive... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif [Tantalize Mode Off]

Tom


----------



## PeLu

[ QUOTE ]
*SilverFox said:*With non-IC3 batteries, this charger is a simple timed charger.

[/ QUOTE ]

IMHO the old version of the charger is not timed. It will charge forever (or longer) on some 140mA IIRc.

The new one switches off when cells are full.


----------



## SilverFox

OK, the "RayOVac I-C3 Batteries and Charger" post is up.

Tom


----------



## SilverFox

Hello Peter,

I will put a non I-C3 cell in the I-C3 charger tonight and see if it shuts off. When I did my test, I pulled the battery after 12 hours and the green light was still on.

Tom


----------



## koala

Tom, thank you for your permission for allowing me to chip in to your thread.

I am surprised with your findings regarding the Maha C401FS so I went ahead and did my own test. I cycled a new pack of 4 Energizer 2100mAh with my Duratrax IntelliPeak ICE charger. The cells were charged then discharged at 0.500Ah rate for 4 times. The discharge cut off voltage is set at 0.9v. The whole process of cycling took nearly 2 days straight phew. I notice you mention that the Triton cooling fan is noisy, I find it annoying because it runs whenever you run the discharge function. So it's seems to be semi automatic to me.

The IntelliPeak ICE has a fully automatic fan. It only turns on when the charger heats up to 50C(122F). So far I haven't managed to do any high current charging/discharging that could turn the fan on. You can also turn it on manually through the software and it's less noisy than the Triton.

Back to the testing. So after cycling them I let them sit overnight. The first test charges 1 cell at a time. I pop the first cell in to the C401FS and set the timer. When it's done I let it cool down peacefully for 30 minutes then proceed to the ICE discharge. I don't have a CBA but I am quite confident to say that the ICE is pretty accurate when it comes to numbers. Same as the Triton. The discharge current is set at 1.0Ah.

During the charging process the cell temperature starts at 37C-40C(99.5F-104F) and peaks at 47C(116.6F) when finish. Hot you ask me? Yes I think so. I am not sure if my probe is reading correctly but it's quite warm to touch. Certainly not very healthy. The next test is to load all 4 slots with the discharged cells and charge them simutaneously. The charging is monitored closely at the end of charge, cell is pulled out individually when the green Led is lit.

With the Maha C401FS, I found an interesting link between temperature and charge status. The cell temperature rises according to the charge percentage. The nearer it is to 47C(116.6F) the nearer it is to it's peak charge. Whether it is linear or not the temperature rises constantly when fast charging. This is a good monitoring apart from timing.


Maha C401FS charge rate fast. Discharge rate 1A. Energizer 2100mAh.
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Cell 1 in Slot 1: Fast charge time: 137 minutes - Discharge 2.002Ah 
Cell 1 in Slot 2: Fast charge time: 137 minutes - Discharge 2.012Ah

Cell 2 in Slot 1: Fast charge time: 137 minutes - Discharge 2.015Ah
Cell 2 in Slot 2: Fast charge time: 137 minutes - Discharge 2.015Ah

Cell 3 in Slot 3: Fast charge time: 135 minutes - Discharge 1.986Ah
Cell 3 in Slot 4: Fast charge time: 128 minutes - Discharge 1.942Ah

Cell 4 in Slot 3: Fast charge time: 132 minutes - Discharge 1.944Ah
Cell 4 in Slot 4: Fast charge time: 136 minutes - Discharge 1.996Ah 

4 cells fast charged simutaneously. Discharge rate 1A.
-------------------------------------------------
Cell 1: Fast charge time: 151 minutes - Discharge 2.004Ah
Cell 2: Fast charge time: 151 minutes - Discharge 1.992Ah
Cell 3: Fast charge time: 136 minutes - Discharge 1.925Ah
Cell 4: Fast charge time: 136 minutes - Discharge 1.895Ah

4 cells slow charged simutaneously. Discharge rate 1A.
-------------------------------------------------
Cell 1: Slow charge time: 406 minutes - Discharge 1.922Ah
Cell 2: Slow charge time: 406 minutes - Discharge 1.924Ah
Cell 3: Slow charge time: 391 minutes - Discharge 1.966Ah
Cell 4: Slow charge time: 406 minutes - Discharge 1.931Ah

-vince.


----------



## SilverFox

Hello Vince,

Very interesting...

I am interested to see how your results on the slow charge setting compare.

Your charger is running quite a bit cooler (in fast mode) than the one I tested. I also noticed that you start off hotter. It must be warmer in your part of the world. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Tom


----------



## koala

I will do the slow charging test very soon.

Yes it's very hot(post summer) here when I did the testing. I think the weather forecast was 35C(95F) max, and the room temp is around 30C(86F).

We had bushfire warning last Monday and today there's snow on the alps and water flooding everywhere closing down alot of roads. It's crazy down under.

-vince.


----------



## SilverFox

Hello Vince,

You'll just have to keep a kayak handy for a fast escape...

It would appear that your charger is very consistent from slot to slot.

Tom


----------



## koala

Tom, 
Thanks for the suggestion /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif I will be fine, I live in an apartment on the 5th floor .

I have updated my previous post in page 7 with slow charging results. I am quite surprised. Slot3Cell3 ended early, I pulled it out, then after minutes, the rest of the slots LED turned green together at once. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif

-vince.


----------



## SilverFox

Hello Vince,

Page 7? I'm still on page 1... OK, it a couple of posts up. I found it.

The plot thickens. It would appear that you wasted about 250 minutes (per cell) charging in slow mode. On your charger, the fast and slow modes produce the same results. Interesting.

More questions... When did you get your charger? The one Brock let me borrow was several years old (I think). I assume you are running on 240v, but that should not make any difference in how the charger works.

Is there any chance of getting a current measurement in fast mode? 

There seems to be something different with your charger. There are multiple reports of cells getting very hot (I have seen reports of up to 145 F) on this charger in fast mode. Your temperature measurements show a lot cooler than that. The shrink-wrap on my cells deformed slightly during my test.

I wonder what the difference is.

Scratching my head... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thinking.gif

Tom


----------



## koala

[ QUOTE ]
The shrink-wrap on my cells deformed slightly during my test.

[/ QUOTE ]

WOW...

I got my Maha C401FS charger here, received it on the 21st Jan 2005. It's a pretty new unit. I am away from my cave at the moment so I can't check any date stamping. I don't think I remember seeing any date stamping.

The charger came with 4 Powerex 2200mAh AA cells. I would guess that it would be less than a year old because these cells appeared not long ago. Wild guess?

The charging adapter is a 240v unregulated. Output 12VDC 1Amps. I am not really happy with the 401FS. When I cycled the Energizers with my ICE, they have higher discharge capacity. Maha doesn't seems to be able to fully charge the cells without trickle charging.

I don't know how to accurately measure the charging current. Someone(brook?) mention that the charger charge one slot at a time while switching from one slot to another. This makes it even harder to measure?

145F is very hot. That's 2C degress off my seagate harddisk drive operating temperature. I inserted a temperature probe between the + tab/nipple and the charger, and my dmm tells the rest of the story. For a comparism, the Titanium TG1000 charges the cell at 1700mAh and yeah it's much hotter than my Maha. How did you take the temperature readings of your cells?

I will do more extended test when I return.

-vince.


----------



## SilverFox

Hello Vince,

I checked out the site you listed. There is a picture of a Maha 401FS at the top, but at the bottom discussion of the charger the Maha 204 charger is referenced.

The 204 is also referenced in the linked articles. It looks like a wonderful charger, from the reviews.

Which one did you get - 401 or 204?

Tom


----------



## koala

C401FS - definetely 401, the 204 doesn't have the slow/fast feature. The person is selling a 401.


----------



## wptski

Among my collection of chargers I have two MAHA MH-C204W. I had a few problem NexCells that wouldn't charge on my C401FS, don't think they are even mark for mAh rating either!

I tried them in the C402W and they charged but I left them in to trickle. I noticed sometime later that the LED on one side was flashing red. I went to remove the cell and it had got so hot that it melted the wrapper to the case slightly. There is a little bit of the plastic cradle that actually melted. I've used the charger since with no problems although I wonder about the temperature cutoff!

Today I went to insert four Sanyo 1500 cells. The cells on that side wouldn't start charging but would on the other side. I grabbed my cordless phone, pulled out the two PowerEx 2000mAh and tried them, no problem.

These are the only Sanyo cells that I have so I don't know if they are all like this but notice how large in diameter the positive contact is? This charger has a recessed contact and a slot that the positive contact must protrude in to. That slot that got hot must have distorted the plastic around the contact just enough to give the larger contact a problem.


----------



## TrueBlue

I see someone else is having troubles with the MAHA 204. My problem is the same thing. The left side blinks red and will not start charging. I've tried cleaning the contacts so I'll just have to dig into the charger to see if there is a loose connection. So right now I can only charge two cells at a time on the 204. I didn't really like the 204; it seemed to overcharge cells. YMMV.


----------



## wptski

[ QUOTE ]
*haveblue said:*
I see someone else is having troubles with the MAHA 204. My problem is the same thing. The left side blinks red and will not start charging. I've tried cleaning the contacts so I'll just have to dig into the charger to see if there is a loose connection. So right now I can only charge two cells at a time on the 204. I didn't really like the 204; it seemed to overcharge cells. YMMV. 

[/ QUOTE ]
Is that a C204W or C204F you have?


----------



## TrueBlue

MH-C204F


----------



## SilverFox

Hello Vince,

Your charger is working a lot better than the one I borrowed.

I wonder if Maha has changed the design...

Tom


----------



## SilverFox

Update:

I have added the results from the La Crosse Technology BC-900 charger. I will throw a shameless plug for Jon Burly where I purchased mine. You can get them at www.jsburlys.com .

This is a charger and analyzer and has many features. I was mostly interested in its ability to charge and it does a good job. There is another thread that goes into all the other features.

I will say that I found the other features very useful and the results (with some minor limitations) consistent not only from cycle to cycle but also from slot to slot.

I am very pleased with this charger. You can go from simply putting the batteries in and walking away to programing a test mode to refreshing new or tired cells.

Over all it is easy to use and offers advanced features if you want to use them. It does a good job of charging too.

Now, when are they going to bring out the C and D cell version...?

Tom


----------



## Brock

Which one Tom? The 401?


----------



## SilverFox

Hello Brock,

Yes the 401.

It seems Vince's 401 doesn't get the cells hot and gives pretty much a full charge on fast mode.

Tom


----------



## koala

Could it be a problem with different type of cells I am using(Energizer 2100s)?

Actually I am not very happy with the Maha C401FS. The design of the slot is very sharp, where it scratch/tears the top of the cell when you insert it. Have to push the cell towards the negative spring to avoid this when insertion. I was thinking of filing the sharp edges when I get back.

I did disassemble the case, the circuitry of the 401 is simple. A few mosfets transistors and four inductors in shrink wrap. The brain is a Powerex microcontroller. I notice there's a round sticker on it. Whether there's a version number I cannot recall. Maybe the sticker can tell a story about it.

Vince.


----------



## Brock

I will measure a set tonight and see what they get to. I would also be willing to bet different cells get more or less hot. If I remember correctly they got to about 125F, but that was a long time ago.


----------



## Gene

Tom,
So let me get this straight. If I'm charging C or D NiMH cells on the Vanson, I should unplug it after all the cells get the green lights and then re-plug it and let them charge again because they are on a timed cycle? I'm sure it's for safety but it still seems like a shortcoming for a true "smart" charger. That's not to mention that C or D NiMH's take a LONG time to charge.

I realize putting newer cells through the discharge cycle before charging could be done for a few cycles and that would help break them in. The MAHA MH-C204W charger with the discharge feature like the Vanson says this should be done every 10 cycles or if the cells have been sitting for 30 days or longer. It also says to first charge, then discharge and then recharge again. I take it that would be the proper way to do it in the Vanson also? Doing this charge/discharge/charge with hicap C and D cells would take DAYS!

I'm asking this because NiMH's are not supposed to be affected by memory at all so what would be the advantage of discharging/charging them? I know that there's been an argument raging whether NiCD's have memory but I had two sets of G.E. NiCD cells, (AA's and C), that lasted almost 20 years WITHOUT running them down all the way and they never seemed to have any "memory" effect.

NiMH's are fine but all this charging is really high maintenance especially if you have many NiMH cells! I'm really hoping that Li-Ion AAA/AA/C/D cells, (which hold their charges for weeks and weeks are not too far in the foreseeable future!


----------



## wptski

[ QUOTE ]
*Gene said:*
Tom,
So let me get this straight. If I'm charging C or D NiMH cells on the Vanson, I should unplug it after all the cells get the green lights and then re-plug it and let them charge again because they are on a timed cycle? I'm sure it's for safety but it still seems like a shortcoming for a true "smart" charger. That's not to mention that C or D NiMH's take a LONG time to charge.

I realize putting newer cells through the discharge cycle before charging could be done for a few cycles and that would help break them in. The MAHA MH-C204W charger with the discharge feature like the Vanson says this should be done every 10 cycles or if the cells have been sitting for 30 days or longer. It also says to first charge, then discharge and then recharge again. I take it that would be the proper way to do it in the Vanson also? Doing this charge/discharge/charge with hicap C and D cells would take DAYS!

I'm asking this because NiMH's are not supposed to be affected by memory at all so what would be the advantage of discharging/charging them? I know that there's been an argument raging whether NiCD's have memory but I had two sets of G.E. NiCD cells, (AA's and C), that lasted almost 20 years WITHOUT running them down all the way and they never seemed to have any "memory" effect.

NiMH's are fine but all this charging is really high maintenance especially if you have many NiMH cells! I'm really hoping that Li-Ion AAA/AA/C/D cells, (which hold their charges for weeks and weeks are not too far in the foreseeable future! 

[/ QUOTE ]
Forget what they say, Ni-MH do suffer from the "memory effect" but it just takes longer to surface and takes less full cycles to solve the problem.


----------



## SilverFox

Hello Gene,

As I understand it...

Both Nickel and Cadmium chemistries display a voltage depression when cycled exactly the same over an extended period of time.

This means that *IF* you run your light for *exactly* one hour every day, and charge it *just* until the green light on the charger comes on and repeated this every day, in a month or so, your cells would not be able to run for more than an hour even though they may be rated for more capacity.

Most of us are not that disciplined to do that, so we don't notice it.

With the advent of NiMh cells, half of the memory sensitive chemistry was changed and advertisements came out that the memory effect was gone. In all actuality, it is only half gone...

How does this effect you and I? 

I don’t think it has much effect at all. I also have NiCd cells that are quite old and still work well in spite of the fact that I don’t cycle them when charging them back up. I must also state that I don’t use my lights exactly the same each time I use them.

If you happen to notice that your cells seem to be getting lower in capacity than when they were new, a cycle or two of discharge and charge will eliminate the memory effect. You can review the example I did on a B90 battery stick (Bringing a B90 back to life with Magic Dust).

AccuPower (and I am sure there are others) have removed the discharge function from their chargers stating that their pulse charging is just as effective in removing any memory problems. Since it is very difficult to produce the memory effect to star with, I will just accept that their charge algorithm works.

Now that I have made that clear as mud… /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/nana.gif Let me go on to your other questions.

I disagree with Maha if the charge rate is low. I think if the charge rate is high, it doesn’t matter if you first charge or discharge.

I have taken 9000 mAh D cells on my Vanson and had them “fume” during the first charge. It was as if the signal for full charge was not present. This does not happen if I first discharge them. This is not an issue when charging these cells at 2 or 3 amps.

AA cells can show a false indication of full charge at the beginning of the charge cycle, so perhaps Maha has found that charging first tends to eliminate the false indications.

When I open up a new cell, I first discharge it at a slow rate, then charge it at a slow rate. I do not go to heavy loading until I have a few cycles on a new cell. I usually cycle my cells by using them in my lights and keeping a few notes.

On the other hand, if I was involved in RC racing and had my ego on the line… I would want to get the absolute best performance from my cells that I could. Even fractions of a second of extra run time count.

When I start a race, I need high amps and the highest voltage my batteries can produce. If the other guy has a slight voltage advantage, I must resort to exceptional skill to beat him.

In this competitive environment you need to get the most from your batteries. The general procedure is the day before the race you run a cycle on your batteries, then discharge them to about 50%. Just before the race, you fast charge them up and run them hot. This is how you get the most from a battery pack.

If you want to get the maximum output from you batteries, cycle them every week and use them hot.

If you can live with a few seconds less run time, just use them and charge them as needed.

Another one down – clear as mud… /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

The Vanson charger can charge an 8000 mAh D cell before the timer shuts it down to trickle charge. If your cells are bigger than that, you will have to do a double charge. I put my cells on the charger then restart the timer about 4 hours after they start charging. My cells come off the Vanson at 1.43v.

If you have more questions, I think I have covered the basics here and promise to be more brief…

Tom


----------



## Gene

Bill,
Thanks for your take.

Tom,
Very interesting and informative and you HAVE covered the basics! I still think the pulse charging is more hype than not and I like the discharge function on chargers but what do I know? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crackup.gif I've been using the automatic discharge/charge function on the Vanson with all my cells because I figure it can't hurt anything and AA/AAA cells don't take all that much longer doing it that way.

My NiMH D cells are 900maH so I guess I better start the double charge drill. I'll try your trick of re-starting after about 4 hours. It's just that D's take so long to charge to start with that adding another 4 hours is maddening! Thanks for your take!


----------



## SilverFox

Hello Gene,

Keep in mind that batteries have a limited cycle life. 

Some people consider it wasteful to use the discharge function each time. They hold off on discharging until they have used up most of the battery capacity. If you only use a small amount, perhaps you could just "top off" the cells and wait to discharge until you have some heavy use from them and run them almost completely down.

The same thought applies to you D cells. If you are just topping them off, there is no need to cycle the timer.

AA and AAA cells are cheap enough that loosing a few cycles is no big deal. On the other hand the C and D cells are more expensive and I would just as soon get as much use from them in my lights as I can.

Tom


----------



## SilverFox

Update:

I have added the results from testing the AccuManager 20 charger. Thanks Lureleven for letting me check two of these chargers and a whole bunch of different cells.

Previously the Vanson BC-1HU (after 24 hours on charge) held the record for putting the most charge into my Titanium 2400 mAh test cells. 

Move over Vanson, AccuPower has demonstrated that its advanced charging algorithm allows charging to more capacity in a shorter amount of time without overheating. I am very impressed.

The other claim that AccuPower has made good on is the AccuManager 20 will charge all capacity cells in one sitting. I had no problems charging a 12000 mAh D cell. It still takes a lot of time, but when the light stops blinking, they are ready to go.

If you are looking for a high capacity independent channel charger that will do AAA, AA, C, D, and 9V cells, this is the charger for you.

Tom


----------



## Lurveleven

Great to see that it comes out so well. Was there any difference between the two chargers, or did they give the same test result?

Sigbjoern


----------



## Bogus1

I read through this thread the other day and it seems this link to the new MAHA universal might be pertinent. Seems cool to me. Where would I round up a bunch of Li-ion cell holders from? Thanks http://www.thomasdistributing.com/mh-c777plus.htm


----------



## SilverFox

Hello Sigbjoern,

Both chargers seem to be producing similar results.

By the way, I forgot to mention that Sigbjoern is letting me check these chargers (as well as several brands of NiMh cells) out. Thanks again.

Tom


----------



## Phlack

[ QUOTE ]
*SilverFox said:*
Update:
AccuPower has demonstrated that its advanced charging algorithm allows charging to more capacity in a shorter amount of time without overheating. I am very impressed.


[/ QUOTE ]

Glad I bought it, then. Was kinda wondering if I made the right choice...looks like I did.

Couple questions:
1) Your test says it charged up the 2400mah batteries in ~2 hours. From my own personal experience, it takes longer than that. Also, I believe the AccuManager20 charges at a 700mah rate, which would put it at a ~3.5hr time frame, which is more along the lines of what I get. Your test would indicate a 1200mah charge rate. How would you explain the difference?

2) Question on the graph: why do the lines all start at 0mah hours, but at 1.2v? (I guess I'm not understanding how the graph was made) Or was that a discharge graph (and the mah hours is current discharged)

Thanks
-Mike


----------



## SilverFox

Hello Mike,

There seems to be some confusion here. Let me see if I can clear it up...

I have not keep track of the amount of time it takes to charge the cells. I am testing them when the charger indicates full charge.

My comment about the AccuManager 20 being faster came from the fact that it put more charge into the cells than the Vanson did in 24 hours. I seem to recall that it took about 4 hours to charge my Titanium 2400 mAh cells.

The graph you are looking at is showing the battery performance after it has been charged on the various chargers.

The Titanium 2400 mAh cells lasted 124.1 minutes under a constant 1.0 amp load. 

Batteries are rated at a different load than they are used at. My testing is an effort to see what the "real" capacity of the battery is when used under loads that we see when using them in our flashlights. The 2400 mAh rated cells are actually 2069 mAh cells when charged on the AccuManager 20 and loaded to 1.0 amp.

Since the best battery is only as good as the charger used to charge it, I thought we should look at chargers before checking the various batteries.

I hope that clears things up for you.

Tom


----------



## tbone_Ike

SilverFox, thanks so much for taking the time to test and share this data! 
I must admit, evertime I think I've figured out which charger to purchase, I find myself re-evaluating /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Interesting to me though, is that I can't find any AccuManager20 info that tells me it has a trickle-charge mode. In fact, the .pdf on thomas-distributing says "the end of the charging process is reached when the corresponding LED is constantly on".
I'm a newbie so forgive my lack of knowledge, but given the test data and charger capabilities, this would mean you would have to reset the charger and re-charge to get the 'full capacity' from the cells, correct? 
Although the initial charge upon LED completion status is greater than the other chargers, many of the other chargers would automatically top off the cells to full capacity in a single, albeit lengthened charge, via their trickle-mode capabilites. Am I interpreting this correctly?
-jeff


----------



## SilverFox

Hello Jeff,

You're close...

The AccuManager 20 charged my test cells to a higher capacity in a normal charge cycle, than my Vanson charger did in a normal charge cycle plus 24 hours of trickle charge. The Vanson beat out the Maha in a 24 hour charge and now the AccuManager beat the Vanson, and did it in about 4 hours without the benifit of an additional 24 hour trickle charge. 

The AccuManager 20 does appear to have a trickle charge mode, but I am not sure how it works. It has a high voltage cut off to keep cells from cooking, but I am not clear if it charges at a reduced rate or at full rate when the cell voltage drops.

Tom


----------



## tbone_Ike

Thanks again, Tom.

I just sent AccuPower USA an email requesting a little info regarding the trickle charge system on the AccuManager20. I'll post any response I get here on this thread.
-jeff


----------



## Phlack

The Accumanager20 does trickle charge. I'm looking for a posting made from accupower about that, but it does indeed trickle charge.

-Mike


----------



## Gene

Nice job Tom!

Just for us non-technical types, when you say the 20 charges cells to a higher capacity than the Vanson, what end result runtime are we talking here? Say I charge two 2200 mAh NiMH AA cells in the Vanson and get the green lights. I then charge another set of identical cells in the 20 and get the green lights. I know it depends on what light or electronic device I use but are we talking maybe 10 more minutes of runtime from the cells charged in the 20? Just ballpark here. 

Also, in the Vanson I have, it will charge cells to the green lights and they remain almost eerily cool. I'm used to the MAHA chargers which when even slow charged, cells still get quite warm, sometimes even hot. Though cells don't get hot in the 20, they still get warm. In the long run, couldn't it be feasible that cells might last longer charged in the Vanson where they remain totally cool as opposed to being charged in the 20 where they get warm? We all know heat is one of the factors that will kill any cell eventually. This then could possibly negate the advantage, (in the long run), the 20 has over the Vanson in it's higher capacity charging. 

By the way, this thread should be a sticky!


----------



## SilverFox

Hello Gene,

Thanks.

If you check out the graph in the first post, it has a legend that displays AmpHours, WattHours and Minutes. The Minutes are runtime at 1 amp load.

Heat is a by product of charging NiMh cells. As long as the heat is kept below 120-130 degrees F at the end of the charge, it is considered "normal." At temperatures over 130 degrees F, you start worrying about damage to the cells.

Tom


----------



## koala

Hi Tom,

I just got back to my cave! Read the ICE manual, it wouldn't let me do the 4 step charging without the temperature probe(though I haven't try it). I will look for the probe IC to build one soon.

Vince.


----------



## tbone_Ike

Below is the email response I got from AccuPower-USA regarding the AccuManager 20's trickle charging. I'm going to end up buying this charger! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[ QUOTE ]
Hello Jeff:
Sorry for the delayed response.
When the charging process is completed the AccuManager 20 trickle charge the batteries. Every 10 seconds the charger monitors the battery status.
1.	Is the battery in the charger?
2.	Which voltage does the battery have?
3.	Does the battery need a trickle charge?

The need of trickle charging is identified in different manners. For RAM batteries (rechargeable alkaline) the voltage provides pretty accurate information about the state of charging of the batteries. For instance, if the battery after ending the charging process has a voltage of 1.68V and 10 second later has only 1.5V then recharging is needed. If the battery still has 1.68V no charging is applied. For NiMh batteries this process is more complicated. After finishing charging the voltage starts dropping slowly. Here it is important to monitor the degree of voltage drop. The intelligent electronic in the charger decides about the proper time and intensity of the trickle charge. The micro controller adjusts the trickle charging to the quality of the battery and saturation state of the electrodes. 

I hope this answer your questions.


Best Regards,

AccuPower-USA


[/ QUOTE ]


----------



## turbodog

I did not read this whole thread so forgive me if this is a duplicate. 

I just wanted to add that I have been using a 30 min 4/aa duracell charger with excellent results. I don't know of the completeness of the charge, but I really want to say that it has a FAN that blows through the cells from below. They come off the charger unbelievably cool.

Pretty much the accepted way to get full capacity in the r/c community for the purposes of testing cells is to:
quick charge untill peaked (approx 20-30 minutes)
trickle for 5 minutes
repeak


----------



## tbone_Ike

I got my AccuManager 20 & it's been working out really well. I'm not sure exactly how the conditioning circuitry works (and I don't have any testing equipment) but I can honestly say it noticeably revived some older 1800mAh Energizer NiMH cells I'd been using. 
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
-jeff


----------



## tbone_Ike

Also, I received a qick response via a request to Ansmann Energy about the maximum charging limitations of the Energy 8 and Energy 16 units as listed below:

[ QUOTE ]
Dear Mr. E...,

we are glad that you are interested in our products.

You can load accumulators with a maximum capacity:

AAA 2800mAh
AA 6400mAh
C 11000mAh
D 11000mAh 
9V- block 300mAh 

Best regards,


[/ QUOTE ]

Just thought I'd share the info /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
-jeff


----------



## Pajamas

SF,

I just got my Maha C777 charger in yesterday and charged up some Titanium 2400 mAh batts. It worked like a champ and after 3 cycles (discharge/charge) continously the batteries weren't even that warm.

I'd be curious to see how the Maha C777 charger compares. Let me know.


----------



## rick88

[ QUOTE ]
*turbodog said:*
I did not read this whole thread so forgive me if this is a duplicate. 

I just wanted to add that I have been using a 30 min 4/aa duracell charger with excellent results. I don't know of the completeness of the charge, but I really want to say that it has a FAN that blows through the cells from below. They come off the charger unbelievably cool.

Pretty much the accepted way to get full capacity in the r/c community for the purposes of testing cells is to:
quick charge untill peaked (approx 20-30 minutes)
trickle for 5 minutes
repeak 

[/ QUOTE ]

Have you tried higher capacity batteries in the Duracell 30 minute charger? Just wondering if it can determine if longer times are needed for larger cap batteries or if there is a 30 minute limit for charging.


----------



## Luna

[ QUOTE ]
*SilverFox said:*
Hello Chris,

Here are my results from charging an LG 18650 2400 mAh cell and terminating the charge at 4.2 volts and 4.1 volts.

I did a couple of runs and they seem to be quite close.

My Sony 18650 cells have a gradual drop off (rather than the sharp drop off the LG cells show here) at the 3.0 volt test termination. I believe this is why the large difference in capacity was observed. A few minutes less charge seems to have a larger impact on the Sony cells. Doug and Peter may be correct. The Sony cells seem to be behaving differently
Tom 

[/ QUOTE ]


I know this is an old post but it looks like you are seeing the difference of a coke vs graphite cell. The older Sony coke cells has to be discharged lower (2.5) to observe the capacity rating. The LGs are graphite and are meant to run to 3v.


----------



## SilverFox

Hello Luna,

Thanks.

I have beat the crap out of that cell and it just keeps working and working...

Tom


----------



## SilverFox

We have a new leader in the charger race...

Until now, the AccuManager 20 was able to put more charge into a cell when it indicated full charge than any other charger tested. That reign has come to an end.

I picked up a Schulze isl 6-330d charger. It has taken the lead by roughly 3.3%.

I believe the AccuManager 20 is also a German product, along with the Schulze. those Germans seem under stand what it takes to "fully" charge a cell.

Check the first post for more information and check out the graph.

Tom

Edit: I stand corrected... The AccuManager 20 is from Austria, not Germany.


----------



## evan9162

Is there any possibility that the cells you are using are getting better just through cycling, and that earlier charger tests would show better results now that the cells have been cycled?


----------



## paulr

The Schulze seems to be a Triton-like single-channel charger, good for battery packs with matched cells, but not so good for random cells that have been used in different gadgets and whose capacity varies from one cell to the next. And I wonder whether the higher measured capacity can mean the Schulze is more aggressive about overcharging slightly. It does look like a good charger though, something I might like to have considered as an alternative to the Triton for charging large packs. One area of concern: it apparently has a 5AH capacity limit, making it unable to charge D cells and close to the edge for current C cells. C's and D's aren't widely used in the RC community but sub-C's are very common, and those might reach 5AH sooner or later. With AA's, after all, we've gone from 500 mAH nicads to 2500 mAH NiMH in just a decade or so. A few years ago 1200 mAH NiMH was still pretty standard.


----------



## SilverFox

Hello Evan,

Good question...

It is true that NiMh cells will show some increase in capacity with the first few cycles. 

Prior to starting these tests with the chargers, these cells had over 50 cycles on them. I believe they were well "broken in" before the testing began.

I did run a check after getting these results from the Schulze. I put the cells in my Vanson BC-1HU charger, charged them up, and the test results were almost exactly the same as what I published earlier.

I am more concerned that the cells may loose some capacity with the number of cycles I have been putting on them. The main reason I chose the Titanium 2400's was because of their claim to be an extremely high quality cell. They have worked out very well. 

Tom


----------



## evan9162

Gotcha. 

If you have the time, it might be worthwhile to re-check results periodically on some of the chargers that were tested first, just as a sanity check. Just the engineer in me thinking out loud.

Great job on these comparisons.


----------



## SilverFox

Hello Paul,

I am sorry I wasn't clear in my description of the Schulze...

The 330d is a 2 channel smart charger. One channel has higher charge rates (and capacities) than the other, but you can use both at the same time.

Discharging can only be done on channel 1.

It is my opinion that the extreme flexibility of the Schulze (and the Triton) make it very suitable for those random cells of differing capacities. The La Crosse is a very good charger for AA and AAA cells, but for charging the various C and D cells, your choices are limited.  The Vanson takes a long time and you may have to reset the timer half way through the charge. The AccuManager 20 does not have the timer issue, but it still takes a long time to charge up an 11.5 Ah D cell. The Schulze is great for charging packs and I think it is great for charging other cells as well.

If Energizer or Ray O Vac were to come out with a 15 minute D cell charger, my opinion would change... but I am not sure that is in the works.

The maximum charge current on the 330d is 5.5 amps. It has a safety timer that shuts the unit off at higher charge rates after 4 hours. This gives a theoretical capacity limit of 22 Ah. 

There are two charge rates that are not timed. The 0.1C rate is pulsed and continues until you disconnect, as is the 0.25 amp rate.

The 330d has a temperature monitor that checks the unit temperature and will lower the charge rate when the unit heats up. It seems that lowering the voltage from 14 volts to 1.5 volts generates some heat. I have noted that the maximum charge rate for a single NiMh cell seems to be around 2.0 amps. I can go higher with forced cooling, but that seems to be a limit of the charger. I am still figuring this unit out, so I am not ruling out operator error...

I believe the Triton has a similar limitation, but am not sure what the exact numbers are. The Triton also has a fan that helps with cooling.

Now all of this changes if you put two cells in series...

At any rate, I am going to have to check some high capacity D cells to see what happens. It would seem that a single cell at 2 amps for 4 hours would give a practical limit of 8 Ah.

Tom


----------



## H22A

Hello SilverFox, This charger comparison is very interesting. I have charger that is not yet on your list and I'm wondering if you are interested to give it a work out. If yes, please PM me with your address I'll be glad to send it to you.


----------



## SilverFox

Hello H22A,

PM sent.

Tom


----------



## evan9162

A 15 minute charge for an 11Ah D-cell would mean pumping 44A into the cell! That would be quite the circuit/power supply - providing the D cell can even handle charge currents that high.


----------



## tbone_Ike

I'd like to see that......from a distance, of course /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

-jeff


----------



## paulr

Silverfox, thanks. I have a Triton on order (with my USL) and had been intending to use it (besides charging the USL) to charge some large D packs in series. It turns out my plans for one of the D applications has changed and so I'm going to use AA's for that. The other application is an idea that I haven't yet carried out and won't pursue til after the Triton arrives. 

The Schulze charger does sound nicer than the Triton for charging large D packs. I can't think of any applications where I'd want to charge loose random C or D cells. Most gadgets with loose cells these days use AA's.

The Ansmann Energy 16's 11000 mAH limit is also unfortunate since 12000 mAH (claimed) cells are available already today, and capacities will keep getting higher. If I'm going to buy a $150(?) charger I'd hope it would last for a while.


----------



## evan9162

[ QUOTE ]
*tbone_Ike said:*
I'd like to see that......from a distance, of course /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

-jeff 

[/ QUOTE ]

I have a power supply pulled from a piece of 3Com networking equipment that will output 25A at 3.3V. So I could do a 30 minute charge on one, possibly two cells in series (one is more likely). Again, assuming the cells don't explode with that kind of charge current.


----------



## SilverFox

Hello Evan,

From deep within a protection bunker a little voice calls out "That's only about 2C - Go for it..." /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Tom


----------



## tbone_Ike

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/popcorn.gif


----------



## PeLu

[ QUOTE ]
*paulr said:*
The Schulze seems to be a Triton-like .... 

[/ QUOTE ]

From this side of the pond the Triton looks like a Schulze - like .-)

Anyway, Schulze offers several different chargers and a good thing is that you can get them here on ebay (but not cheap, as people know their value). 

If the 6-330d is too small for you, get a i8-936g, 3 channels, up to 10A and 36 cells (for channel 1).


BTW, the AccuManager should be an Austrian charger, didn't we have a CPF member working at the company?


----------



## SilverFox

Hello Peter,

I have edited my post above. I stand corrected... The AccuManager 20 is from Austria. 

I believe the technical staff at AccuPower must have had lunch with the staff at Schulze to compare notes. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif Both products do a very good job of charging.

Tom


----------



## PeLu

[ QUOTE ]
*SilverFox said:* The AccuManager 20 is from Austria. 

[/ QUOTE ]
The user is 'AccuPower' (Gerhard Hackhofer). Actually for us here it is not so important from where things are, But Graz in Austria was one of the centers for charging technologies, but I haven't heard much about improvements lately.


[ QUOTE ]
I believe the technical staff at AccuPower must have had lunch with the staff at Schulze to compare notes.

[/ QUOTE ] Maybe, but unlikely.

I don't know how other similar products are maintained, but Schulze is well known for regular updates on their charger software.


----------



## Lynx_Arc

If you had 12 D cells in series you could hook them up to a car battery charging system that had a 100 amp alternator and
charge them pretty fast for sure... just watch out for explosions.


----------



## Icarus

Any idea where we can buy the AccuManager 20 charger?


----------



## Lurveleven

I got mine here:
http://www.thomas-distributing.com/ap-accupower20.htm
(now at an even lower price than what I paid)

Note that it doesn't come with a power adapter that you can use, but I know of one CPF member that asked if he could get an European compatible power adapter instead and got it. I wish I had done that.

Sigbjoern


----------



## Icarus

Thanks Lurveleven! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbsup.gif


----------



## Raybo

I was looking for a high capacity AA charger and happened to stumble across this one.

Like all good flashaholics I had to order it. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/sick.gif

I will run it through its paces and will fill everyone in when I recieve it. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbsup.gif


----------



## AFAustin

Two-part novice question here:

1) Is a "discharge" mode needed on a NiMh charger? If so, why?

2) Any opinions on TG1000 charger promoted on Amondotech website?

Thanks for the continuing education.


----------



## SilverFox

Hello AFAustin,

In applications that shut off when the battery drops to around 1.1 volts per cell, the discharge function will "re-form" the cell for better performance. 

Most flashlights do not have this issue, but my GPS does.

The TG1000 charger is good, but the TG2800 is better (in my opinion...),

Tom


----------



## blr

Discharge to 1.0 V per cell is a usefull function in a chrger for Ni-based cells. Although NiMH cells do not suffer from voltage depression (wrongly called memory effect) to the same extent as NiCd cells, deep discharge is recommended once every 15 cycles or so. Most electronic devices, such as digital cameras and walkmen would not discharge below 1.15 V/cell and discharging a battery pack through a resistor or a light bulb may overdischarge the weakest cells in the pack. The best solution is to get a charger with independent charging slots that can discharge each cell individually to 1 V. I do this once every 10-15 shallow cycles. Doing it every time is not needed and will decrease the cycle life of your cells


----------



## koala

Hi all,

Has anyone tried charging high capacity + low internal resistance NiMH cells with the TG1000? Mine overheats(completely shutdown) every now and then, when charging the Energizer 2100s. It works 'okay' with a fan beside.

Vince.


----------



## SilverFox

Hello Vince,

My TG1000 charger heats cells up to 95-100 F (including the Energizer 2100's) and that is as high as it goes. I am not using a fan and am charging at room temperature (68 F).

Cells heat up at the end of the charge, I wonder if your charger is having a problem determining the end of charge...

Tom


----------



## koala

Hi Tom,

It's not a problem with end of charge. It just shuts down anywhere between 15 to 30 minutes whether charging empty or full cells. I am suspecting there's a problem with the charger circuitry. Using a fan will ensure the charging process end which lights the green LEDs. Btw, it charges 1 cell fine without any active cooling.


----------



## SilverFox

Hello Vince,

Oh, I understand now...

It does sound like you have a problem with the charger.

Tom


----------



## koala

It doesn't matter, now I have a Maha C401FS and an ICE I am pretty happy.


----------



## pcmike

Alrighty, so I've pretty much read MOST of this thread. I'm still not clear which charger I should invest my money into. I can tell you that I need a charger that is capable of charging all chemistries, so I'm looking at an RC-style charger (a la Triton), but I see there is this "Schulze isl 6-330d" and you touted it as being a better perform then the Triton (it also charges gel-cells which is a plus, since I'm a amateur radio op). If you had to buy one charger and plan on hooking it upto multiple battery holders to charger various cells of various chemistries, which charger would you buy SilverFox (and others)? Thanks for the input! *ADDED TO FAVORTIES*


----------



## SilverFox

Hello PCMike,

First of all let me remind you that my "needs" are a little bit more demanding than those of the casual user.

The chargers I consistently use on a day to day basis are:

LaCrosse BC-900
Energizer 15 minute
Vanson BC-1HU
Titanium TG-2800
Schulze isl 6-330d

I also frequently use the Nano charger.

You are looking for a charger that will do it all, and I would recommend the Triton, ICE, or the Schulze.

I was ready to purchase a Triton, when a "good deal" was discovered with the Schulze. In addition, the Schulze hooks up with my computer so I can study the charge/discharge curves. It is my personal belief that the Shulze Nickle algorithm is more advanced than the Triton, but in reality, they are very close. The Triton has more capability discharging, and if you don't want to graph your results, would be a good choice. It's also a bit cheaper. I believe the Triton also does gel cells as well. I should also point out that the Schulze also has a second channel (with somewhat reduced capabilities), so you can charge two batteries at one time.

The ICE is a good charger as well. You will have to check the manual to see if it will do gel cells, and keep in mind it has slightly less capacity in terms of the number or cells that can be charged in series. It does have a very nice display.

All in all, if I were to purchase only one charger, I would go with the Schulze.

Tom


----------



## pcmike

[ QUOTE ]
*SilverFox said:*
Hello PCMike,

First of all let me remind you that my "needs" are a little bit more demanding than those of the casual user.

The chargers I consistently use on a day to day basis are:

LaCrosse BC-900
Energizer 15 minute
Vanson BC-1HU
Titanium TG-2800
Schulze isl 6-330d

I also frequently use the Nano charger.

You are looking for a charger that will do it all, and I would recommend the Triton, ICE, or the Schulze.

I was ready to purchase a Triton, when a "good deal" was discovered with the Schulze. In addition, the Schulze hooks up with my computer so I can study the charge/discharge curves. It is my personal belief that the Shulze Nickle algorithm is more advanced than the Triton, but in reality, they are very close. The Triton has more capability discharging, and if you don't want to graph your results, would be a good choice. It's also a bit cheaper. I believe the Triton also does gel cells as well. I should also point out that the Schulze also has a second channel (with somewhat reduced capabilities), so you can charge two batteries at one time.

The ICE is a good charger as well. You will have to check the manual to see if it will do gel cells, and keep in mind it has slightly less capacity in terms of the number or cells that can be charged in series. It does have a very nice display.

All in all, if I were to purchase only one charger, I would go with the Schulze.

Tom 

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks for the post Tom, my plan of attack for modding a light has changed and so to have my requirements for batteries/chargers so I'd like to get a suggestion from you. What charger would you recommend to get the BEST charge into 6 Titanium 2600mAh cells (of course charging all six at the same time)? Multiple modes, variable charge rates, discharge function, etc would all be a plus. I was considering getting a BC-900 or AccuManager 20, but I would really like to charge six cells (or more) at a time with all the same features of a BC-900. Thanks so much Tom!


----------



## cy

buying chargers is kinda like buying flashlights. 

once you get hooked on details of charging and chemistries of different cells. 

prices starts to creep... up that is. when I purchased my triton for $110, it was a real stretch for me. $180 for a Shultz back then would be too much. 

fast forward a little, now I'm more able to use functions of a Shultz and would have no problems with the $180.

But I've already got a triton and so far it takes care of all my needs.


----------



## pcmike

Tom,

If you were picking up your first battery charger and you wanted to get the best, most versatile, drop-in, slotted charger, which would you purchase? BC-900? AccuManager? I'm really learning torwards getting a BC-900, but due to having absolutely ZERO experience with these things, I'd like a second opinion. Thanks very much top.

P.S. The charger will be used to charger the Titanium 2600s we talked about in the other thread! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif


----------



## Lurveleven

pcmike, you always have the option of buying two 4 bay chargers. I have two Vanson V6000 and these charges the batteries in one hour. I also have the AccuManager 20 and there is a dead tie between them in the amount of capacity they put into the batteries, and as you have seen the AccuManager is one of the best so the V6000 is also a top performer.

Sigbjoern


----------



## pcmike

[ QUOTE ]
*Lurveleven said:*
pcmike, you always have the option of buying two 4 bay chargers. I have two Vanson V6000 and these charges the batteries in one hour. I also have the AccuManager 20 and there is a dead tie between them in the amount of capacity they put into the batteries, and as you have seen the AccuManager is one of the best so the V6000 is also a top performer.

Sigbjoern 

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks for the post. I was considering buying two four slot chargers, but for now I'll just buy one (keep costs down initially). I was considering the AccuManager 20, but it doesn't have a discharge function from what I can see in the documentation (or maybe it does, not sure). The V6000 also looks like a decent charger (and it tested out to be a very good one according to this thread), however I'm leaning torwards the BC-900 due to all the features. How does the BC-900 compare to the V6000 and AccuManager 20? Thanks.


----------



## Lurveleven

I don't have the BC-900, way to slow for my taste, but I was very close to buying it and it has some very useful features. If I didn't have other means of testing battery capacity then I would have bought it. You can always buy a fast charger later.

Sigbjoern


----------



## pcmike

I suppose it is slow if you set it to a low charging rate. From what I was reading it'll support all the way upto 1.8A for charging, thought I do think I read it'll only go that high for two slots at a time or something. I forget, maybe I'll just get the V6000 then considering its cheaper! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif


----------



## pcmike

I ended up buying a BC-900, should work out great. I plan on getting 20 Titanium 2600mAh cells tomorrow provided I get a confirmation on diameter size from Amondotech.

By any chance does anyone know the diameter/length of the Titanium 2400mAh cells that are known to fit into the EL 3AAtoD adapters? This would help when I get the email from Amondotech tomorrow. Thanks!


----------



## SilverFox

Hello PCMike,

My Titanium 2400 cells are 1.984" long by 0.562" in diameter. Out of 8 cells, that was the largest dimensions. Some were slightly smaller.

Tom


----------



## pcmike

Just out of curiousity (and before I call Amondotech) what would you estimate the MAX diameter (per cell) be to fit in the EL 3AA-to-D holder? Thank you.

Also, with all these "bored" Mag2D posts I've been reading in past months/years, do the EL 3AA-to-D holders fit perfectly fine in a STOCK Mag2D tube? Just curious.. thanks guys. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif


----------



## SilverFox

Hello PCMike,

I can't give you an exact answer, however, Energizer lists the diameter of AA alkaline cells to be in the 0.531-0.571" range, and I believe Wayne designed the 3AA to D holder to accommodate them. From this I could ASSUME that a maximum diameter would be in the 0.571" range.

Tom


----------



## pcmike

This may be a stupid question (and I think it quite possibly is), but the 3AA-to-D holders Elektrolumens sells fit into standard 2D Maglite tubes right? No boring or anything is needed? Just thought I'd confirm. Thanks again.


----------



## SilverFox

Hello PCMike,

Mine does...

Tom


----------



## pcmike

Thank you Tom. Going to call Amondotech shortly to figure out the diameter of the 2600 cells and if they conform to what you posted (which I'll double check with EL later today) then I'll go ahead and order some and PRAY they fit later in the week (or whenever the holders arrive). /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Thanks again, I appreciate your timely posts to my constant little questions.


----------



## Lurveleven

You can always buy a Fivemega 6AA-2D adapter if they don't fit.

Sigbjoern


----------



## pcmike

Well I just got off the phone with Larry(?) from Elektrolumens and he measured out cells that "fit" and cells that "don't fit." 

The cells that fit were: .515, 2300mAh (generic)
The cells that DID NOT fit were: .521 (mercury cells)

Does this information bode well with others experiences with the EL 3AA-to-D adapters? Thanks.

I'll be calling Amondotech shortly to HOPEFULLY get a diameter reading.

Also does anyone know what the MAX diameter per cell that would fit into a STANDARD 2D MAGLITE would be when using the Fivemega 6AAtoD adapter? Thanks!


----------



## pcmike

Anyone try a Vanson V-6500 yet? Since this BC-900 I got appears to be screwy when it comes to Slot4 I'm just going to RMA it and get something quicker that will hopefully work just as well and not decrease the light of the batteries a whole lot. Everyone seems to love the V-6000, so I'm guessing I should just get that or the AccuManager 20. Can someone please give me some advice on a fast charger!

Also, can you please give me the charging rates and trickle rates of the fast chargers you recommend. I'm trying to figure out the trickle charging rate on the V-6000, but I don't see it documented anywhere.

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thanks.gif


----------



## paulr

I came into this late but I suggest buying a Fivemega adapter instead of those 3-to-D's if you possibly can. No disrespect due to Wayne but the 3-to-D's are just nowhere near as robust.


----------



## pcmike

I ended up getting the Energizer 15 minute charger since I could just go down to Target and buy it. Charging the included 2200mAh engizers now. The batteries don't seem to get too hot at all (to touch). I may take this one back and get the one with the car charger, I dunno. We'll see. Somehow I don't think the extra $10+tax is worth the DC adapter. I figure I can just use my RadioShack adjustable one (I'll find out in a bit).


----------



## PeterW

Dumb question, I have just been looking at this long charger thread, could you tell me the best ones for my needs... then I can go look for the ones I can get in the UK and for how much.

I am about to build a 4D mag mod powered by 12 loose NiMH AA cells, I also have some gadgets that eat AA cells and am building some custom lights that will be powered by a 6AA battery holder. So I plan to buy a modest quantity of Titanium2600 AA cells. The problem is how to charge them all up so I don;t have to wait a week to use my lights. I do not have any immediate plans to use soldered battery packs of to use other sized batteries.

I want a wall plug charger (240v here in Europe) so i do not have to buy a separate DC supply
I want to be able to charge 4+ cells at a go.
I want to get the MOST charge into the cells.
I don't want to have to wait more than around 2hours for a charge.

Which chargers are likely to fit the bill??

Many thanks for the help.

PEterW


----------



## SilverFox

Hello Peter,

The AccuManager 20 or the LaCrosse BC-900 are worth looking at. I believe both will run off of 240V, but you may need an adaptor to go from blade to whatever plug us use.

The AccuManager 20 will charge AAA, AA, C, and D cells but is a little slower than the BC-900. The BC-900 will only charge AAA and AA cells, but has some testing programs to keep track of the capacity of your cells.

By the way, all of the chargers listed will put about the same capacity into a cell if you leave the cell on the charger for an hour or two past the full charge indication. This round of testing was checking how full the cells were when the green light came on. 

Tom


----------



## lrp

I also have been reading this thread with lots of interest and I'm looking for a top of the line charger that will handle primarily NIMH batteries, but will do lots of other stuff! Thanks for any advice.


----------



## glire

SilverFox said:


> 2/6/05 La Crosse Technology BC-900 Charger (available from Jon Burly)
> 
> ...
> 
> I have issues with the absolute numbers it gives for capacities, but it is consistent from slot to slot and from cycle to cycle. I find it gives more uniform capacities if you start the test mode with a fully charged cell.



Could you explain what you mean by "absolute numbers"? Is it too optimistic compared to what give your instruments for testing?
Btw, do you explain somewhere the protocol and instruments of your tests?

Thanks.


----------



## SilverFox

Hello Glire,

My goal in doing this testing was to give realistic results based on how we use our batteries. The battery manufacturers goal is to demonstrate the highest capacity from their product.

In flashlight use, we frequently charge the batteries up, then put them in the light for use at a later time. This "resting" time allows some of the surface charge to dissipate, resulting in lower mAh ratings for the cells.

The standard practice for testing batteries involves charging the cells, then immediately beginning the discharge test. This is what the BC-900 does in the test mode. This will give higher mAh results than if you charge the cells, let them rest for a period of time, then perform the test. I am following this latter protocol. I am also pulling the cells from the charger as soon as it indicates they are "fully" charged.

I am using the West Mountain Radio CBA II for the testing and the graphs are generated in S+.

Tom


----------



## lrp

Guys, where can you buy these nice chargers, such as the Triton, ICE and Schulze? Many thanks!


----------



## mortod

... in my case, where can you buy them in the UK. Have searched around for the LaCrosse BC-900 but to no avail.


----------



## glire

SilverFox, thank you.
The results of the BC600 can then be considered as "accurate" given its discharge/charge conditions.
Actually, "absolute numbers" are not really important. What is important is the ability to compare, match and detect weak cells when several are used in serie. That's almost impossible with basic red/green LEDs of other chargers. Also, when buying a new set of cells, we can determine if it would perform better than an older set (and see if those recent AA 2700mAh are actual progress or just a marketing labelling).

Mortod,
I had the same problem from Belgium. I contacted LaCrosse and they gave me a french shop website. It was too expensive so I ended buying at www.nouveauxobjets.com; less than 57€ delivery included. There is also www.mistergooddeal.com if you find a way to be delivered in UK.


----------



## mortod

Odd - Nouveauxobjects claim not to sell it - 'we don't sell this product and can't stock just one'. What is the URL for LaCrosse, so I can ask them direct (are they the same company as the weather meter company that Google finds?)?


----------



## glire

It's actually called RS900, not BC900.
http://www.nouveauxobjets.com/rs900.php


----------



## balazer

Just for reference, the TG-2800 is made by Samya Technology:
http://www.samyatech.com.tw/Product_3c.asp

Amondotech still sells it:
http://www.amondotech.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=814

They are currently running a special: TG-2800 + (4) NiMH AA 2400-mAh Titanium cells + battery case for $33.50
http://www.amondotech.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=926


----------



## balazer

The La Crosse Technology BC-900 is known by these names:
- techno line IC8800
- Intelligent Power Charger IPC-1
- BC-900
- RC-900

Here's a page with links to a few sellers:
http://www.techmati.com/reviews/rs900/index.htm

ukweathershop.co.uk has it for £39.95, elv.de has it for 49,95 €, and heavyweather.de for 47,95 €.


----------



## balazer




----------



## mastabog

mortod said:


> Odd - Nouveauxobjects claim not to sell it - 'we don't sell this product and can't stock just one'. What is the URL for LaCrosse, so I can ask them direct (are they the same company as the weather meter company that Google finds?)?


La Crosse is a french company (now international). The official links to this BC900/RS900 charger (it's the same product) are the following:

for US: http://www.lacrossetechnology.com/products/spec_items/bc900.html
for Europe: http://www.lacrossetechnology.fr/en/RS900.html?famille=7

In france/europe you can buy it from here: http://www.nouveauxobjets.com/rs900.php (i just did yesterday, 48 euros including shipping)

It is also available at meteotronic in france: http://www.meteotronic.com/fr/meteo_pdt.php?id_chapitre=0&id_sous_chapitre=&id_produit=137

Mistergooddeal doesn't have it anymore (it was 5 euros cheaper) but I see in the posts above that it starts popping up in other european stores.

Too bad it doesn't come with a 12V car-cigarette adapter ... other adapters like that won't work since this charger requires 3V DC input. That meteotronic store sells the original car-cig adapter but it costs 15 euros which in my opinion is a bit expensive.


----------



## Greg_Leblanc

Hi Tom! Any chance of posting the data you used to generate that first graph in the first post? It's a little busy for me to follow very well, and I thought I'd generate a few for my own use that had a few less chargers displayed.


----------



## SilverFox

Hello Greg,

Yes, it is a little busy... I included the table of results to help with that.

Unfortunately the data is specific to the WMR CBA. 

Tom


----------



## nighthawk

coming from r/c racing background, i wanted to share some info on the world's most advanced battery charger/battery management system...
http://www.competitionelectronics.com/GFX.html


----------



## peskyphotons

I am looking for a charger that will handle AAA, AA, C, and D. I don't need a very fast charge rate, overnight is fine. After reading this thread I'm thinking about buying the AccuPower AccuManager 20. If anyone has any other suggestions I would appreciate the feedback. I would also like a recommendation for where to buy the AccuManager 20 charger.

Thanks,
Alex


----------



## Dukester

Good choice on the AccuManager:

Try Thomas Distributing @ http://www.nimhbattery.com/ap-accupower20.htm


----------



## minimig

Hello to all,

Are any of you using the Kodak K6000 1 Hour Charger? I have this and am very happy with it.

I read in Thomas Distributing's description of the K6000 that it conditions as it charges. How does it do this? Does it use the "burp charging" method?

Will Silverfox review the K6000 anytime soon? 

Thanks


----------



## SilverFox

Hello Minimig,

Welcome to CPF.

I don't have the Kodak charger, and am not planing on getting one. If you would like to send me yours, I would be happy to evaluate it and add it to the list.

They could be using the reflex (burp) charging method, but I don't know for sure. On the other hand, they could start the charge by discharging the battery and state the same thing.

Tom


----------



## minimig

I'd like to send you mine, but the shipping charges would cost more than the charger.


----------



## DynoMoHum

The Competion Electronics GFX was stated to be... "the world's most advanced battery charger/battery management system" While Competition Electronics does make a really nice RC battery charging/evaluating product... I'm not sure I'd go so far as to say it's the worlds most advanced...

Futaba has a pretty darn nice system as well, the CD-5000...

http://www.futaba-rc.com/batteries/futm4170.html

Now, I've never used the Futaba, and have used a older Competition Electronics product, the specs on the Futaba would seem to indicate that it's at the very minimum... in the same league as the GFX...


----------



## Lightmeup

A friend just bought a Canon digital camera that uses 4 AA batteries. He wants a recommendation for a nice charger that hopefully is switchable between 120 and 240 volts because he travels in Europe a lot. Also, a rec on what kind of NiMH batteries to buy, and where to get all this stuff. Can someone shoot me a quick recommendation? Thanks....

LMU


----------



## SilverFox

Hello Lightmeup,

The TG2800 from AmondoTech works very well and is not too expensive.

While you are there, you can also pick up some of the Titanium 2600 mAh batteries and you should be good to go.

Tom


----------



## Dukester

DynoMoHum said:


> The Competion Electronics GFX was stated to be... "the world's most advanced battery charger/battery management system" While Competition Electronics does make a really nice RC battery charging/evaluating product... I'm not sure I'd go so far as to say it's the worlds most advanced...
> 
> Futaba has a pretty darn nice system as well, the CD-5000...
> 
> http://www.futaba-rc.com/batteries/futm4170.html
> 
> Now, I've never used the Futaba, and have used a older Competition Electronics product, the specs on the Futaba would seem to indicate that it's at the very minimum... in the same league as the GFX...


 
Check out http://www2.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin/wti0001p?&I=LXGDY2&P=7

Looks like the CD-5000 does everything but windows... Towerhobbies priced it at $399, yikes... I think I will stick with my Duratraxx ICE.


----------



## Arkayne

Ohhh I posted this in another thread but I think it'll do better in here. Cut and Paste:

Did you ever consider using a battery charger used for RC Car/Airplane apps? You would have to modify existing holders or make your own for banana plugs. I bought mine from a hobby shop called Hobby People.





Specs and Review here:
http://www.rcgroups.com/links/index.php?id=4607

I use this jewel to charge and condition all different types of batterys for my toys. If/When I start messing with Li-Ion and Li-Po's I'm going to recruit its services for charging duty. It's a bit pricey though ! 

It wouldn't be hard to make a harness from your dead charger that works on this thing. AND you can charge 2 batts that are totally different at once!


----------



## SilverFox

Hello Arkayne,

Yes.

You will notice comments on the Triton and Schulze chargers in the main post. One of the Maha chargers is also designed to work with packs.

Tom


----------



## Lightmeup

SilverFox said:


> Hello Lightmeup,
> 
> The TG2800 from AmondoTech works very well and is not too expensive.
> 
> While you are there, you can also pick up some of the Titanium 2600 mAh batteries and you should be good to go.
> 
> Tom


The Amondotech webpage mentions a "separate refreshing function" as one of the features of the TG2800. What does that mean exactly? Is that like the reconditioning mode in some other chargers, or what?

LMU


----------



## SilverFox

Hello Lightmeup,

If you simply put your cells in a TG2800, they will charge.

If you put the cells in and press (and hold for a short time) the button at the bottom of the charger, it will first discharge, then charge the cells.

This gives you one cycle of "conditioning."

Tom


----------



## Beacon of Light

I bought the Lacrosse charger and it does charge some cells past the normal capacity. I took a fully charged set from my Maha CF402, and it added a bit of Mah to them. 

One problem though is the power supply seems buggy. At first I couldn;t get it to come on, so I figure there is a short in the cord somewhere. I will call Thomas Distributing.

Also the TEST, Refresh, and Discharge features aren't as intuitive as I would have hoped. I am Refreshing a set of old Nicads now and monitoring the progress makes no sense to me. The voltages never drop to 1v, and the Mah capacity doesn't decrease like you would expect if it is discharging, it acts like it is charging even though it says DISCHARGE the Mah incrementally goes up.

Also how long will this take as you can only set it to a max of 1000 mah charge rate 500Mah discharge rate, but it does this cycle of charge/discharge for "x" number of times before it can't go any higher capacity. So theoretically this could take days. 

Sorry for venting but this works great for charging but for the other utilities, the jury (me) is still out to lunch on.


----------



## wptski

Beacon of Light said:


> I bought the Lacrosse charger and it does charge some cells past the normal capacity. I took a fully charged set from my Maha CF402, and it added a bit of Mah to them.
> 
> One problem though is the power supply seems buggy. At first I couldn;t get it to come on, so I figure there is a short in the cord somewhere. I will call Thomas Distributing.
> 
> Also the TEST, Refresh, and Discharge features aren't as intuitive as I would have hoped. I am Refreshing a set of old Nicads now and monitoring the progress makes no sense to me. The voltages never drop to 1v, and the Mah capacity doesn't decrease like you would expect if it is discharging, it acts like it is charging even though it says DISCHARGE the Mah incrementally goes up.
> 
> Also how long will this take as you can only set it to a max of 1000 mah charge rate 500Mah discharge rate, but it does this cycle of charge/discharge for "x" number of times before it can't go any higher capacity. So theoretically this could take days.
> 
> Sorry for venting but this works great for charging but for the other utilities, the jury (me) is still out to lunch on.[/QUOTE ]
> 
> If you cells are in poor shape, it may take some time to Refresh! As far as the discharge voltage goes, I myself and others have verified that the LaCrosse discharges to .9V. Maybe your charger is defective?


----------



## SilverFox

Hello Beacon of Light,

I would suggest that you spend some time reading the owners manual. It will help you figure out what the displays are indicating in the various modes.

The Refresh mode is interesting. Some NiMh cells come to full capacity after 3-5 charge/discharge cycles, others may take up to 50. You are correct that it could run for days.

For example, if you set the BC-900 up for 500 mA discharge and 1000 mA charge currents and have 2500 mAh cells, I will take around 3 hours to charge the cell from empty, and around 5 hours to discharge it. That works out to about 8 hours per cycle. If you have to do 5 cycles, you are looking at around 40 hours.

Tom


----------



## Beacon of Light

Yes I do have a defective unit. It is being RMA'ed.

Even after reading the manual I still am stumped about the discharge rate. When you set the display to the Mah full capacity, is it supposed to DECREASE (shown on the LCD display) till it gets to 0, and then start the charge cycle? For some reason the Mah display for capacity either reads 000 or --- sometimes or the number INCREASES during the discharge cycle. Makes no sense why it would increase if it's discharging.

I spoke to some guy at Thomas Distributing, and he basically said you can't go by the LCD once it's in the discharge cycle. That said he said the DISCHARGE, REFRESH and TEST cycles pretty much do the same thing. 

My question to him was, what is the difference between the TEST cycle and the Refresh cycle? They both charge to full capacity and then discharge many times till it can't be further charged and then it will read FULL. 

The only difference I saw was that after test it reads the full capacity, but if you press display a few times after a REFRESH cycle is complete you can also see the full capacity of the cell. Strange...


----------



## SilverFox

Hello Beacon of Light,

The test mode will first charge the cell, then discharge it and after it has finished discharging it will display the capacity. Then it will charge the cell back up and go to trickle charge.

The refresh mode will charge the cell, then discharge it and check the capacity during discharge, then charge it back up. Instead of going into trickle charge, it will then repeat the process over again and compare the discharge capacity to the last cycle. When the capacity stops increasing, it charges and goes to trickle charge.

The reason you see the capacity increase during the discharge in refresh mode is that it is measuring the capacity of the cell starting from 0. In test mode you should not see a capacity (---) until the end of the discharge cycle.

Tom


----------



## balazer

In the midwest, Meijer is selling the Energizer 15-minute charger kit with 4 AA batteries, 2 AAA batteries, and an automotive power adapter for $31.49, on sale through the end of December. The normal price at Meijer is $35.

Someone mentioned that he bought the charger in Canada and it came with a 100-240 V AC adapter. I didn't notice if the one at Meijer came with a universal voltage power adapter, but anyone wishing to use the charger overseas can do what I did: get an IBM T or A series Thinkpad AC adapter. Just search eBay for '16v 4.5a ac adapter' and you'll find lots for under $15. I believe the plug will fit the Energizer charger without any modification.


----------



## alberto

Just got a LaCrosse BC-900 to replace my Maha C204W (and 401 before that -- wife inserted alkalines and smoked it), which was making me nervous about the job it was doing. Charging current is 2A for 2 batteries and 1A for 4 batteries. There's no slow charge rate option and I feel it was destoying some of my batteries -- lots of heat and sometimes it would think the batteries were faulty and not charge them after previously charging them.

The BC-900 now gives me individual battery controls, charge rate options, refresh, and LCD display to see exactly what's going on. 

I have briefly looked at some of the discount strore chargers (Eveready, etc) but don't trust them. For an extra few bucks, it is worth having what appears to be a great charger, the LaCrosse.


----------



## Beacon of Light

Happy with the replacement Lacrosse charger I have. The first one had a short in the power pack I think. I really like the refresh cycle. It revived batteries that were idle for a couple of years and brought them back to near full capacity. Highly recommended and also recommend Thomas Distributing.


----------



## Stainless

OK, eleven pages, and my head is spinning.

Any recommendation as a "best best" for AA batteries and charger?

Also for CR123 batteries and charger?


----------



## BentHeadTX

Stainless,
Just read all the information also... it is rather mind boggling after the first 45 minutes of reading. 
At home I have an Accupower Accumanager 20 for my families AAA/AA and 9V NiMH battery needs. I have had it for two years and it chargers in a decent amount of time (4 hours with dead 2500mAH AA cells) charges the 9V and AAA batteries without cooking them. The only downside is lack of discharge or condition function. 
The other charger I have is the LaCrosse BC-900 AA charger/conditioner and it is a mixed bag. It is a royal pain to get all the batteries to condition as the interface is a PITA. It defaults to 200mA for charging and 100mA for discharging so give yourself a few days when doing low-level condtioning. The 4th channel will not do anything but charge at 200mA so I consider the BC-900 a device to test batteries but not to easily charge AA batteries. 
At work we have two chargers a Maha 777 and Cadex ($3700) The 777 is a royal pain to use since it requires seperate battery holders to charge AA cells. It hammers the batteries and really gets them hot! I conditioned my Sanyo Industrial 1700mAH 8AA to 2D pack and shut off the charge cycle when it registered 1,770mAH of capacity. It has a temp probe that magnetically attaches to the battery pack but I think it is set too high! It might be just me but the 777 is a speed charger/conditioner at all costs although it works very well.
The Cadex (7200?) is an amazing piece of equipment, it will test lithium PRIMARY cells in 3 minutes and give an estimate of capacity without discharging the cell. It does NiCad, NiMH, Lithium-Ion, Lithium Polymer, Lead Acid, AGM Lead Acid and lithium primary cells. A great unit but it is expensive and very, very large. We use it to test/certify medical equipment batteries and it is a work horse. 

After reading about chargers for the last several months, it seems that the "perfect charger" is not available at a price limit of $100 to $120. Here is what I would like to see in a charger:

AAA/AA/C/D/9V charging of 4 channels/2 channels 9V with an external pack option (attach alligator clips to pack)
-Vdelta 
adjustable temp probe to shut off charge (110 to 145F)
Timer to terminate charge if -Vdelta and temp does not shut it down

Slow charge of 125mA (AAA) 250mA (AA) 700mA (C) 1000mA (D)
"Normal" charge of 250mA (AAA) 700mA (AA) 1000mA (C) 1,500mA (D)
"Fast" charge of 450mA (AAA) 1,500mA (AA) 1,500mA (C) 2,000mA (D)

Slow discharge 200mA (AAA) 400mA (AA) 1000mA (C) 1,500mA (D)
Fast discharge 500mA (AAA) 1000mA (AA) 2000mA (C) 2500mA (D)

Give it several simple buttons to make controlling it simple. Test (discharge/charge with capacity display) Condition (discharge/charge cycles until they level off with final capacity display) Charge 
A three position switch for slow/normal/fast charging
Two position switch for discharge rates. 

Basically, take a Accumanager 20 and put a Maha 777 battery pack port with temp probe. Add the BC-900 display to see the capacity. 

My favorite ($120 or less) charger is the Accumanager 20 but it needs a discharge function at the minimum. Plan on getting a BAM 4 emmiter 8AA to 2D Mag this year to match my nFlex LuxeonV 8AA to 2D Mag. My problem is I have to charge 8AA batteries at once and keep them conditioned to keep the cells balanced. The Maha C808 set on "low" charge (1,000mA) might work but I would feel better not hitting those 1,700mA batteries with it's default 2 Amp charge setting. Maha chargers seem to really enjoy heating up cells so I would prefer anything else. 

The Amondotech Titanium TG2800 charger looks good as long as I get two of them. The Lightning 4000N charger is good but since I have to charge in pairs, that makes it a no-go. I'll have "roommates" that will use the chargers and put a single cell in so the independent channels make it simple. Might be heading back to the desert this year and will take two 8AA to 2D packs with me, two 2AA lights, Ocean AAA with NiMH battery, various other lights, 4AA computer speakers, 2AA shortwave etc. I figure it will be around 36 AA and 4 AAA NiMH batteries. Initially, the TG2800 looks good and having two of them is a nice backup. The BC-900 will be used to evaluate the capacity of my batteries so it looks like three battery chargers will be making the trip. The Accucharger will stay at home with the family for all their needs. 

Then there is the dark horse Sanyo Enerloop NiMH batteries... will "normal" NiMH batteries work with them?


----------



## SilverFox

Hello BentHeadTX,

The search for the prefect charger continues...

I just want to add some observations.

When talking to the AccuManager 20 people, they informed me that their charging algorithm is designed to condition the batteries during the charge. This way they do not require a discharge cycle. I am not sure how they do that, but a modified reflex charging method comes to mind. At any rate, I have heard nothing but good comments from people that are using this charger.

Charging algorithms are becoming more advanced. Some chargers are now able to charge at high rates without heating the batteries up.

The Energizer 15 minute charger is one of these. I still don't know how they do it, but charging a 1500 mAh NiMh cell in about 10 minutes, without heating it up to dangerous levels is incredible. If you do the math, that is charging at a rate around 7 amps.

I have posted a review of the Maha C808M charger, and can highly recommend it. I have not posted the test results here, yet, as I am a little bit behind. Once again I notice that my 1500 mAh cells are charged at 2 amps without heating up. Cells stay cooler in the Maha charger due to the high temperature cut off being set at 120 F. The highest I have seen, so far, is 96 F. It appears that Maha has also figured out how to charge at fast rates without heating the cells up. Unfortunately, it does not charge 9 volt batteries. If I were just starting out, I would get the 808M for my AAA, AA, C and D charging, and purchase a separate 9 volt charger like the AmondoTech TTP9V.

I am alarmed at the number of reports we are hearing about the BC-900 melting down during charging. I am not sure what is going on, but this is not good. I would tend to give up knowing the capacity of my cells, rather than risking damage to my property.

Of course, there is always the CBA and the Schulze...

Tom


----------



## wptski

The last few days I've run a few tests on a La Crosse BC900 and a MAHA MH-401FS. I'm using a Fluke 54-II dual temp probe to monitor the temp at one minute interval to read dT/dt which should be 1.8F/min with a 1C charge. I also monitored the voltage on two cells with a Dataq data logger. It has four channels but I wanted to leave the cells in their chargers, so not to add any wire lenght. It's hard to connect to the cells in their cradles, so I was limited to only two cells and had problems losing my connctions at times!!

One thing that I'd like to mention first is that the BC900 during charging appeared to have a pulse to it. I was seeing at exactly once per second, a slight drop in voltage. This drop drop in voltage turned to a peak after temination was reached too! I guess this could have been some sort of interference and I'm going to look at that later, if I can as I could be limited by lack of equipment!

This isn't a lab test either, so don't jump on me please! 

I used MAHA PowerEx 2Ah cells and Titanium 2Ah cells for my tests. The first few test were actually done without voltage monitoring using a Triton also till I got more curious.

Setting the Triton to charge at 2A and sensing voltage cutoff of 5mv. The dT/dt point of 1.8F/min was passed and charge was terminated at 2.2F/min which was about three minutes later. A slight overcharge but is this bad? Probably not! Max temp was 110.6F.

La Crosse charger with two cells at it's max of 1800ma which is a bit less than 1C charge. Max temp 129.9F. The charger went passed dT/dt point to 3F/min. which was another five minutes.

MAHA MH-401FS in fast mode, 1000ma charge with four cells, monitoring slots 1&2. Max temp was 136.7F in slot #2 and slot #1 was 10F cooler. The charger went passed dT/dt to 3.6F/min which was another three minutes.

MAHA MH-401FS in fast mode, 1000ma charge with four cells, monitoring slots 3&4. Max temp was 141.7F in slot #3 and slot #4 was 10F cooler. The charger went passed dT/dt to 3.9F/min which was another three minutes.

The MH-401FS gets hotter I think because the cells are a bit closer in the cradle. There is a bit of temp soak or increase in temp after the charge was terminated.


----------



## BentHeadTX

Silverfish,
Good to hear that the C808M does not cook the cells like the 777 model. Did some research on the C808M and it gives me the flexibility to charge C and D cells in addition to AAA/AA. Still trying to figure out if I should go for the 3D Mag fivemega 9AA to 3D battery combo with the BAM 4 K2 emitter mod with 2500mAH AA cells or go with a 6C Mag with Accupower 6000mAH C cells. Running 6C would be simpler, offer longer runtimes and be more durable than a battery holder. The eight AA banks can charge my 8AA to 2D LuxeonV Mag mod with "soft charge" as the batteries are 1700mAH Sanyos. 
It would sure be handy to have one charger for all my battery needs. $100 for the charger, $42 for 6C cells, $25 for a 6C Mag and $160 for the SWAH Luxeon K2 4 LED BAM mod. This is going to cost me a few more pennies than I planned but the things that will last always do.


----------



## Mike abcd

SilverFox said:


> ...
> 
> I am alarmed at the number of reports we are hearing about the BC-900 melting down during charging. I am not sure what is going on, but this is not good. I would tend to give up knowing the capacity of my cells, rather than risking damage to my property.
> 
> ...
> Tom




All the reports I've seen here seem to be from using it with AA cells at the 200 mAH charge rate.

It seems in the failures that it was not terminating due to a failure to detect a -dV/dt as the battery manufacturers warn about at low charge rates. I think they should set the default at 500 mAH and warn about charging at lower rates.

I've got a Lenmar Mach 1 gamma chager getting delivered Wednesday that charges at close to 2A and is said to not overheat cells. It appears to have temperature rate of change for charge termination as the cell manufacturer's advise. Downside is it evidently only fast charges to about 90%. I might finish off charges on the BC-900 for an hour at 200 mAH when I care although the "90%" should give a lot more cycles.

Mike


----------



## wptski

Mike abcd:

The Lenmar Mach 1 doesn't go into trickle after dT/dt?

The La Crosse BC900 meltdowns have been with 2500mAh cells at 200ma charge with mostly new cells but some haven't been with new cells.


----------



## Action

*Maha C808M charger Review?*

Silverfox,
Any idea when you will get the opportunity to post your review of the Maha C808M charger? Have you had the chance to compare its performance on C & D cells against the AccuPower AccuManager 20?

Thanks for providing this info to the community, I for one, really appreciate objective, unbiased, head-to-head testing!


----------



## SilverFox

Hello Mike,

There as been at least one report of the BC-900 melting down at a higher charge rate. I was informed that while testing some Sanyo 2500 mAh cells, after conditioning, at 1000 mA charge rate and 500 mA discharge rate, the unit heated up enough to melt the cells into the holder.

I hope that these occurrences are isolated, however I believe it should give us an excuse to examine our charging stations and methods and make them safer. 

Terminating on temperature is a bit tricky, but should result in more cycle life from your batteries. The price you pay is a reduction in capacity, as you have noted.

It occurs to me that this may not be a big deal at all. If you find yourself never ruining out of run time, then a little less capacity is not an issue at all. On the other hand, if you find yourself ruining short on run time, then charging the cells to their highest capacity becomes more important.

I am interested in cycle life, and hope to do some cycle life testing in the future. I have heard reports that rapid charging, or terminating the charge on a change in voltage may reduce the number of cycles from 500-600 down to 400-500. I am not sure how significant that is, and am also aware that there are a whole bunch of other factors that effect cell cycle life as well.

Perhaps we can also look at cycle life from an economic point of view. With Alkaline AA cells available for around $0.20, and premium NiMh AA cells ruining at around $3.00 per cell, and let's throw in $97.00 for a charger. We now have $100.00 invested in our set up. If we are only using 1 cell, we would need about 500 cycles to break even, however if we have 4 cells, the break even point drops to around 125 cycles. So if the manufacturer states that their cells are good for 300 cycles, and we only get 150 from them, we are still doing OK.

Tom


----------



## wptski

Tom:

Negative Delta Voltage detection is .007V drop per cell. Now, that's close work. I'll tell you that I couldn't see the .007V drop with my Dataq logger at all, it's that small! The temperature increase in one minute is easy as that's a long period in time but the only catch is that the charge rate is more like 1C. I tried that on a La Crosse BC900 at 1000ma on 2000mAh cells. The specs are 1.8F per minute but it only showed about 1.4F per minute. Unless there's a way to scale that down to match the charge rate??

I've had my La Crosse BC900 shut down for high temperature while charging 1800mAh seasoned cells. Not sure why that happened!


----------



## SilverFox

Hello Action,

Here is my review on the Maha C808M.

The AccuManager and the Maha chargers both do a very good job of charging C and D cells. The Maha is capable of charging more cells at a time and does it faster, due to the higher charge rate. Both chargers utilize pulse charging, however the Maha has a discharge option. The people at AccuPower say that their charging algorithm does not require a discharge function to re-condition the cells. I don't know if this is true or not, but people using the AccuManager 20 charger have been very pleased with it.

Tom


----------



## SilverFox

Hello Bill,

As I understand it, the problems with terminating on temperature have to do with variations in cell temperature while charging and ambient temperature changes.

Tom


----------



## wptski

There's no mention about ambient temperature in the Duracell document that I read. Do you have a link to other information on dT/dt? If ambient temperture is a problem wouldn't it also be a problem using -DeltaV too?


----------



## Mike abcd

wptski said:


> Mike abcd:
> 
> The Lenmar Mach 1 doesn't go into trickle after dT/dt?
> 
> The La Crosse BC900 meltdowns have been with 2500mAh cells at 200ma charge with mostly new cells but some haven't been with new cells.



I'm sure it does go into trickle charge but the data sheet doesn't give the rate and I suspect it's low enough that it would require at least several hours to top it off. I suspect a timed 200 mA rate in the BC-900 could do it a lot faster. It also seems like it would follow the recommended charging method by Duracell but my memory was wrong on the amount of the top off charge. Thanks for giving me a reason to check again 

"Duracell’s Recommendation: Three-Step Charge Procedure
For fast charging and optimum performance,
Duracell recommends a three-step procedure that provides
a means of rapidly charging a nickel-metal hydride
battery to full charge without excessive overcharging or
exposure to high temperatures. The steps in sequential
order are:
1) Charge at the 1C rate, terminated by using
dT/dt = 1°C(1.8°F) /minute.
2) Apply a C/10 top-up charge, terminated by
a timer after 1/2 hour of charge.
3) Apply a maintenance charge of indefinite
duration at C/300 rate.
The three-step charging method should be used
with a backup temperature cutoff of 60°C (140°F)."

I plan on doing some discharge capacity tests with the BC-900 on cells charged in the Lenmar Mach 1 to verify it's consistent and to determine how much capacity it charges to and then make a decision on a time for a top off @ 200 mA in the BC-900. Based on the Duracell info, it should be a bit over 30 minutes @ 200 mA for 2500 mAH cells. Unfortunately even 200 mA is way over the advised 1/10 C top off rate for AAA but I suspect it will be ok if I cut back the time appropriately.

I may try contacting Lenmar to see if they'll give me the trickle charge current rate. Since it uses temp sensing through the battery connections, it looks tough to measure safely as you can't just measure it with the battery hooked up remotely and let it go through a full charge cycle. If it immediately goes into trickle mode when it sees a cell at/near full charged voltage (1.4+V), it might be easy to do although I don't trust my meter when measuring current levels that low.

Definitely have some playing to do 

Mike


----------



## Mike abcd

Hi Tom,

I hadn't seen your post yet on the BC-900 failure @ 1000 mA when I posted last night. Definitely a cause for concern although still the only report I've seen other than at the 200 mA rate w AAs.

I'll make a decision on whether to use top off charging after I do some capacity checks on cells charged in the Lenmar. I may just leave them in for several hours and let it top them off. In my flashlights, I generally want the run time. In stuff like my r/c heli transmitter, 90% would be a non issue for me. It has a large multi colored LED gauge right on the front that has 4 green segments, 2 yellow and 2 red. The cells I pulled show over a volt when all the green LEDs go out and voltage recovery was probably minimal as I checked them quickly and it has a fairly low discharge rate. I'm getting well over 6 hours per charge.

Cycle life is not a big issue for me unless I'm throwing away something like half their life due to poor charging technique. I'm starting to get concerned though, that the BC-900 might be doing just that by how much it overheats the cells. It was well worth it to me though, even just for it's capacity measuring capability.

I realize your cost analysis was just an example but it becomes a lot more compelling even for a low volume user with a $30 charger like the Lenmar. Also, as you well know, the benefits go beyond cost. I'd be using NiMH just for their performance and run time benefits in high and moderate discharge rate uses even if they cost a bit more than alkalines over their lifetime. I'm sure I'd like my Fenix L1P a whole lot less if I was stuck running Alkalines through it 

Thanks for keeping us up to date on the BC-900 issues!

Mike


----------



## LowBat

Hey, anybody else with a Titanium TG-2800 notice you can discharge/condition cells while simultaneously charging other cells??


----------



## Billson

Hi Tom,

What do you recommend between the LaCrosse and the Titanium 2800? Does the Titanium determine the charging current itself or does it have to be manually set? Just to clarify, when you say 4 channels, I understand it will fully charge each battery regardless of its charge state.

Thanks.


----------



## SilverFox

Hello Bill,

The La Crosse BC-900 is an analyzer as well as a charger. You can adjust charging and discharging rates as well as condition cells for maximum capacity.

The Titanium 2800 is an excellent travel charger. It will discharge as well as charge, but the only selection you can make is the number of cells you charge at one time. With 4 cells, it is charging somewhere near 500 mA, with 2 cells it charges at 1000 mA.

The choice you have to make depends on whether you want to analyze your cells or simply charge them.

Tom


----------



## Billson

Hi Tom,

Does each cell charge individually in the Titanium 2800 even if the current is shared?

Another clarification. Your table says cells are pulled immediately after the light indicates full charge but your comments on this charger say that it charged almost as good as the Vanson after 24 hours. I was wondering which one of the results you put up for this charger.

Thanks.


----------



## SilverFox

Hello Bill,

The TG2800 charges each cell individually. If one or two cells are put in to charge, it charges them at roughly 1000 mA, if three or four cells are put in to charge, it charges them at roughly 500 mA.

The results graphed indicate what I got pulling the cell as soon as the green light came on. The exception is the graph for the Vanson after leaving the cell charge for 24 hours. I was trying to indicate that the TG2800 charged the cells (pulling them when the green light came on) almost to the same capacity as the Vanson after charging and 24 hours of trickle charging.

Tom


----------



## TinderBox (UK)

I have had a number of so called smart chargers over the last few years, most of them charge the cells, in individual monitored slots.

the problem is the inconsitancy in the final battery voltage, even after leaving them to trickel charge for a number of hours.

they vary from 1.39v to 1.45v between slots.

The only charger I`ve had that charged cell to the same level was an

an old "radioshack pulsecharger", that appears to discharge and then charge all cells in parallel.

regards. tinderbox (uk).


----------



## Phlack

SilverFox said:


> people using the AccuManager 20 charger have been very pleased with it.


I've been pleased with mine. Granted, I'm not doing all the tests that everyone on here does, but it works well for me.

As I mention every now and then, the only complaint that I have is if the battery is pretty much dead, it will NOT charge it, unless you kill the power for a few seconds, thereby allowing a quick "surge" into the battery, allowing it to register...this sometimes must be repeated a few times. This was mentioned by accupower (in this thread, I think), however, it is not mentioned in the manual, so I repeat it only in case someone bought it and thinks they have a lot of dead batteries.

It's a minor complaint with an easy workaround, but you have to know the workaround.

-Mike


----------



## SilverFox

Update:

I added the data from the Maha C808M charger to the first post. In addition, since I noticed that it was beginning to get difficult to read the graph, I have added a table of the results. The table ranks the chargers by Watt Hours. 

Why did I pick Watt Hours?

Watt Hours combines capacity and voltage retention under load. This, in my humble opinion, is what we are looking for in the chargers ability to charge. The maximum capacity is nice, but we also want to have a high voltage to keep our lamps bright. In most cases, the highest Watt Hours also corresponded to the highest Amp Hours, but there are a few exceptions. I also believe that it indicates the completeness of the charge as well.

At any rate, the Maha C808M ranks up there with the best performers and is an excellent charger.

Tom


----------



## bcwang

Glad to see the 808M added to the list. Do you think Maha will send you the MH-C204W to test? They claim 98% charge completeness when the light turns green with their 4 stage charging system. It's unfortunate that it only charges in pairs, but when you only use batteries in pairs it's not too much an inconvenience.


----------



## wptski

bcwang:

I have two of them! Yeah, 98% charge, at 2A they come off at over 140F too!

I had a couple old NEXcells that wouldn't charge on my other chargers I had at that time. I probably forgot about the two cells at 2A. The light turned green, cool. Later on, flashing red. The wrapper was melted and stuck to the plastic case on one cell only. I had to pry it out with a screw driver! So much for high temperature cutoff.


----------



## bcwang

wptski said:


> bcwang:
> 
> I have two of them! Yeah, 98% charge, at 2A they come off at over 140F too!
> 
> I had a couple old NEXcells that wouldn't charge on my other chargers I had at that time. I probably forgot about the two cells at 2A. The light turned green, cool. Later on, flashing red. The wrapper was melted and stuck to the plastic case on one cell only. I had to pry it out with a screw driver! So much for high temperature cutoff.



Wow, I've never had problems with mine. I charge at 2amp my HR labeled 2500mah cells, and the cells come off warmer than from the 808m, but still not too hot to hold. I have no way to measure actual temperature, but they're definitely cooler than off my bc900 at 1amp. Were your Nexcells below 2000mah capacity? The manual states not to charge at 2amp with cells of lower capacity so that might be a cause of the meltdown.


----------



## wptski

bcwang said:


> Wow, I've never had problems with mine. I charge at 2amp my HR labeled 2500mah cells, and the cells come off warmer than from the 808m, but still not too hot to hold. I have no way to measure actual temperature, but they're definitely cooler than off my bc900 at 1amp. Were your Nexcells below 2000mah capacity? The manual states not to charge at 2amp with cells of lower capacity so that might be a cause of the meltdown.


bcwang:

Yes, I'm sure that they were less than 2Ah but even then shouldn't the charger shut off before they get hot enough to melt the wrapper?


----------



## bcwang

wptski said:


> bcwang:
> 
> Yes, I'm sure that they were less than 2Ah but even then shouldn't the charger shut off before they get hot enough to melt the wrapper?



One possibility is that after the normal deltaV shutoff, it goes into the top-off mode and your batteries could not handle it and kept heating up. I think the top-off mode is timed and does not use any detection circuitry to cut off again since it's supposed to be a safe and low charge rate (which I still haven't figured out the current of). So maybe after a safe deltaV stop, the top-off mode killed the cell.

Or, after a high-temp cutoff, the cells internally were much hotter than external so the wrapper kept increasing in temperature until it melted off. At high charge rates I could believe the internal temp could increase so fast the external won't see that change for a while. So even after shutoff the external cell temp keeps rising.

Or, the worst is if after a high-temp cutoff the maha still does the top-off charge which would really heat it up more if the previous explanation also happened simultaneously.

This is why I want to know the charge rates in all the different modes and configurations of this charger. However, as of yet I still can't get an answer from Maha about this info. So for now I'm only using it with matched and balanced healthy cells above 2000mah.

Actually Bill, with your scope maybe you can figure out what kind of charge currents the 204w uses in the different modes. The best I could figure out from my own observations is that after the light turns green, the charger sends enough current to keep the cells warm for about 2 hours, then it switches to trickle which lets the cells cool down to ambient after a couple of minutes.


----------



## rickd

I've actually did some test recently with the 801D, 204W, BC-900 and CHCAR1 (from Energizer). I was mostly looking at temperature during the charging cycle. The 801D won by a long shot (max out at 37deg C), the 204W came in second (max at 42 degC for about 2 minutes). The looser was the BC-900 (55 degC for a few minutes before the thermal shutdown kicked in, followed by about a 20 minute pause before charging continued for another 10 minutes or so).

The Energizer CHCAR1 did pretty good, considering is a very cheap charger. Temperature stayed at about 28 degC (room temp was about 24) for almost two hours before starting to increase exponentially. Max temperature was 43 degC for a few minutes. You definetly see the dT/dt just before the termination of charge. 

Both the 204W and 801D charged in a about an hour and 15 minutes(2 amp rate). The CHCAR1 and BC-900 took more then twice as long (1 amp rate).

As far as completeness of charge, the 801D won over the CHCAR1 (98% of rated capacity vs 96% of rated capacity); I don't have very good numbers for the 204W/BC-900, but the numbers were close to the 801D given my less then precise measurment technique.

All test were conducted using the same set of very new Energizer 2500 cycled a few times, starting from a complete discharged (0.9V ) state. Temperature was gather using my multimeter via type K thermocouple, calibrated to within 1 degC between 35 and 55 degC, with a 60 second sample rate.

FYI, I use the BC-900 to analysis my cells (I really don't like it as a charger), the 801D is my main charger, the CHCAR1 is my on the road charger (comes 12V with adapter plug). The 204W was my brother's.


----------



## bcwang

Tom,

I read through the first post but I can't quite seem to see what discharge current you used for the capacity test. It seems a little odd that your mah numbers are quite low for a 2400mah cell. Using the BC900 to measure capacity, I was actually able to get over 2500mah measured capacity from 2500mah HR cells at the 500ma discharge rate. This is waiting an hour after pulling the batteries from the charger and putting it into the bc900.

Ben


----------



## SilverFox

Hello Ben,

I am using a 1.0 amp discharge rate. This is referenced in the title of the graph. I am using the CBA to do the discharge with.

Keep in mind that the BC-900 will first "top off" the cells prior to entering the discharge cycle. This will negate your rest period and tends to inflate the capacity numbers a little.

Tom


----------



## bcwang

SilverFox said:


> Hello Ben,
> 
> I am using a 1.0 amp discharge rate. This is referenced in the title of the graph. I am using the CBA to do the discharge with.
> 
> Keep in mind that the BC-900 will first "top off" the cells prior to entering the discharge cycle. This will negate your rest period and tends to inflate the capacity numbers a little.
> 
> Tom



Hi Tom,

Doh, can't believe I missed that big bold 1amp right on top of the graph. I guess I was just searching in the text to see your methodologies. I'm still not sure how you are able to catch all the cells right as the charger signals completion.

I actually use the BC-900 in "refresh" mode so it starts off with the discharge without charging first. It's a litle inconvenient because I like to catch it just as it finishes the discharge. Worst case is I have to catch it within about 13 hours so only the first discharge is measured, otherwise the second discharge may raise the results. So my capacity results are always of the tested charger, not the bc900 itself. If they had programmed a mode in the bc900 where it would simply discharge and stop, it would be great and allow me to test much more often. Right now I have to find a 4-5 hour block of time where I can start the test and catch the end.

Anyhow, this is how I got my results for both the 808m and the 204w. The 204w really fills the battery up compared to the 808m. That's why I was hoping Maha would send you one to see how it compares to the rest of the chargers. If the 808m was so near the top, I have a feeling the 204w would be at the very top.

Ben


----------



## TooManyGizmos

bcwang said:


> Hi Tom,
> 
> Doh, can't believe I missed that big bold 1amp right on top of the graph. I guess I was just searching in the text to see your methodologies. I'm still not sure how you are able to catch all the cells right as the charger signals completion.
> 
> I actually use the BC-900 in "refresh" mode so it starts off with the discharge without charging first. It's a litle inconvenient because I like to catch it just as it finishes the discharge. Worst case is I have to catch it within about 13 hours so only the first discharge is measured, otherwise the second discharge may raise the results. So my capacity results are always of the tested charger, not the bc900 itself. If they had programmed a mode in the bc900 where it would simply discharge and stop, it would be great and allow me to test much more often. Right now I have to find a 4-5 hour block of time where I can start the test and catch the end.
> 
> Anyhow, this is how I got my results for both the 808m and the 204w. The 204w really fills the battery up compared to the 808m. That's why I was hoping Maha would send you one to see how it compares to the rest of the chargers. If the 808m was so near the top, I have a feeling the 204w would be at the very top.
> 
> Ben



____________________________________________

bcwang :

Your problems involving discharging inconvenience are exactly why I pointed out in my thread that we need a free-standing *discharger* only unit. One that will drop them quickly to 1.0v and then stop. 

CPF thread link here


I was actually dropping a hint that since they don't exist , - maybe someone could design and *market* one. There are many talented people here on CPF - some which could run with that idea - I hoped.


And I'm still hoping.



___________________________________________


----------



## wptski

TMG:

It does already! It's called a CBA-II. 

I "think" and I'll have to check this for sure but the MAHA MH-C777PLUS-II will do a discharge only and stop. The C777PLUS would discharge, wait for a period and then charge but I'm almost sure that they added a discharge/stop feature.


----------



## TooManyGizmos

wptski said:


> TMG:
> 
> It does already! It's called a CBA-II.
> 
> I "think" and I'll have to check this for sure but the MAHA MH-C777PLUS-II will do a discharge only and stop. The C777PLUS would discharge, wait for a period and then charge but I'm almost sure that they added a discharge/stop feature.



____________________________________________

Thanks , but I don't know what a CBA-II is or where it's available. Does it just discharge several NiMh batteries at the same time ?

I would hope , that since so few electronic parts would be required just to drain batteries that it would not cost as much as a standard *charger* unit.



____________________________


----------



## wptski

TMG:

It's a computerized battery capacity tester that connects to your USB port. It discharges at a user set current, cell count, cell type, cutoff voltage and displays a graph of it. I think that it's around a $100 now.


----------



## TooManyGizmos

wptski said:


> TMG:
> 
> It's a computerized battery capacity tester that connects to your USB port. It discharges at a user set current, cell count, cell type, cutoff voltage and displays a graph of it. I think that it's around a $100 now.


_______________________________________________

O.K. - That sounds like a computerized , commercial , lab-grade tester/analizer NASA tool . 

Can you think of a simplified , single use , $40 version ?



_____________________________________________


----------



## wptski

TooManyGizmos said:


> _______________________________________________
> 
> O.K. - That sounds like a computerized , commercial , lab-grade tester/analizer NASA tool .
> 
> Can you think of a simplified , single use , $40 version ?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _____________________________________________


TMG:

It's not that fancy. It's what SilverFox uses except it will output a standard .CVS file which he then imports into a high end graphing application. There are commercial grade unit that cost up into the thousands!

No such animal in that price range.


----------



## TooManyGizmos

wptski said:


> TMG:
> 
> It's not that fancy. It's what SilverFox uses except it will output a standard .CVS file which he then imports into a high end graphing application. There are commercial grade unit that cost up into the thousands!
> 
> No such animal in that price range.


________________________________________________




O.K. - Then I'm STILL hoping............for a $40 Dis-charger.............thanx WptskI





______________________________________________


----------



## bcwang

The CBA II seems pretty cool, and only $99 too, which is a great deal compared to other computerized battery analyzers. I just researched about it last night and I think I'm going to have to buy one soon. I can't believe it took me this long to pay attention to this unit. By the way, does anyone know how low you can set the stop discharge voltage?

Bill,

The problem with the maha C777plusII is that it only discharges at 400ma which is very slow. The CBA II I think is capable of <.125 up to 40 amp discharge. Only problem I have with the CBA II vs the BC900 is you can only test 1 cell at a time, so the bc900 is still faster if testing multiple sets. Unless you really kill the battery by draining at 2 amps or more.

Tom,

You mentioned that the different brands of HR stamped batteries perform slightly differently so could be different formulations. But I'm wondering if the difference could just be sample to sample or even batch variations. Even two of the energizer cells you tested gave far different results. Do you test multiple samples of the same cell and see the same trend for the different brands of HR stamped cells?


----------



## greenLED

SilverFox, thank you for providing and maintaining such useful information. Kudos to you!

Now I'm extra happy I got a Vanson


----------



## TooManyGizmos

bcwang said:


> The CBA II seems pretty cool, and only $99 too, which is a great deal compared to other computerized battery analyzers. I just researched about it last night and I think I'm going to have to buy one soon. I can't believe it took me this long to pay attention to this unit.
> 
> Bill,
> 
> The problem with the maha C777plusII is that it only discharges at 400ma which is very slow. The CBA II I think is capable of <.125 up to 40 amp discharge. Only problem I have with the CBA II vs the BC900 is you can only test 1 cell at a time, so the bc900 is still faster if testing multiple sets. Unless you really kill the battery by draining at 2 amps or more.


______________________________________________

?? What is it about discharging to 1.0v
that you need to analyze ??

It just seems to me that if your gonna be analyzing and testing batteries that you'd want them all uniformly drained to the same level without need of monitoring . To be sure they all began the race from the same starting line b-4 you start the charging proceedure .

Most good chargers- Partially charge/fully discharge/then fully charge - thats the way I understand it . The discharge cycle is very long and slow. That 3 step cycle takes many hours to complete , during which time your charger is tyed up . It's like having one bathroom in a large family.

Seems it would be more time efficent to have a dedicated unit that did nothing but discharge many cells at 1amp rate and doing it faster. And using your charger strictly for charging which would be done faster using just 1 cycle.

Wouldn't that speed up your testing process and the discharge wouldn't have to be monitored .


It's counter-productive to be tying-up our chargers as dis-chargers . .:mecry:




I'm still hoping .......

____________________________________________


----------



## wptski

bcwang said:


> The CBA II seems pretty cool, and only $99 too, which is a great deal compared to other computerized battery analyzers. I just researched about it last night and I think I'm going to have to buy one soon. I can't believe it took me this long to pay attention to this unit. By the way, does anyone know how low you can set the stop discharge voltage?
> 
> Bill,
> 
> The problem with the maha C777plusII is that it only discharges at 400ma which is very slow. The CBA II I think is capable of <.125 up to 40 amp discharge. Only problem I have with the CBA II vs the BC900 is you can only test 1 cell at a time, so the bc900 is still faster if testing multiple sets. Unless you really kill the battery by draining at 2 amps or more.
> 
> Tom,
> 
> You mentioned that the different brands of HR stamped batteries perform slightly differently so could be different formulations. But I'm wondering if the difference could just be sample to sample or even batch variations. Even two of the energizer cells you tested gave far different results. Do you test multiple samples of the same cell and see the same trend for the different brands of HR stamped cells?


bcwang:

I guess that you haven't read about my 11ma CBA-II test for 9 or 10 days?  True the C777PLUS-II is slow to discharge but it does discharge/stop which is what TMG was looking for.


----------



## bcwang

TooManyGizmos said:


> ______________________________________________
> 
> ?? What is it about discharging to 1.0v
> that you need to analyze ??
> 
> It just seems to me that if your gonna be analyzing and testing batteries that you'd want them all uniformly drained to the same level without need of monitoring . To be sure they all began the race from the same starting line b-4 you start the charging proceedure .
> 
> Most good chargers- Partially charge/fully discharge/then fully charge - thats the way I understand it . The discharge cycle is very long and slow. That 3 step cycle takes many hours to complete , during which time your charger is tyed up . It's like having one bathroom in a large family.
> 
> Seems it would be more time efficent to have a dedicated unit that did nothing but discharge many cells at 1amp rate and doing it faster. And using your charger strictly for charging which would be done faster using just 1 cycle.
> 
> Wouldn't that speed up your testing process and the discharge wouldn't have to be monitored .
> 
> 
> It's counter-productive to be tying-up our chargers as dis-chargers . .:mecry:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm still hoping .......
> 
> ____________________________________________



I guess my point is the CBAII can only test one cell at a time if you're trying to characterize individual cells. The BC900 can do 4 at a time. So if I'm going through 20 cells, I only have to swap the cells 5 times in the bc900 vs 20 times in the CBAII. 

I'm not tying up my charger because I don't use the bc900 as a charger. It's strictly an analyzer tool for me. I have about 10 other chargers I can choose from if I want to charge batteries. Unfortunately, the bc900 isn't that great an analyzer because it never just stops after a discharge, so you can't just walk away from it.

Bill,
Thanks for the info on the low drain, I think the CBAII is a very useful discharge analyzer tool. I can't wait to get one. I'll probably use it mostly for cell matching for use in sets.


----------



## TooManyGizmos

o.k....bcwang and wptski

I understand....... thanx


I guess I was speaking moreless in general terms and about my needs.

I wasn't trying to be critical of your testing methods .

I hope you didn't take it that way. 

I'll keep reading and learning..................


____________________________________________


----------



## Handlobraesing

I have an Energizer 30 minute charger. It seems to charge up Energizer AA's ok, but it has problem with AAAs and when you search the internet, you'll see that others are having trouble as well.

The charger only checks the batteries for a few seconds before rejecting them. Mine constantly rejects good 600mAh AAA cells.


----------



## bcwang

Ok, so I finally got around to testing with the CBA II to compare my C808M vs the C204W. Best case to best case, the C204W trounces the results on the C808M. Best case of course being to test the batteries right when the light signals ready and going directly into test with no wait. 

These were done with the same cell, a Kodak 2500mah HR stamped japan cell. CBA discharge rate 3.0 amp, and .9v cell cutoff

C808M = 1989 mah (right after charger signals done)
C204W = 2186 mah (right after charger signals done)

And to compare with the other case C204W results
C204W = 2123 mah (letting cell rest for 40 min after charger signals done)
C204W = 2225 mah (charged overnight, test right after pulling from charger)
C204W = 2180 mah (charged overnight, test 40 min after pulling from charger)

Amazingly right when the light turns green the cells are about 98% full in each case (test right away, or test after 40 min wait), compared to waiting for the full charge.


----------



## Al

Anyone have info on Maha 204GT?


----------



## SilverFox

Hello Bcwang,

Interesting results...

I have a couple of questions.

What is the voltage of the cell right off the chargers?

I was under the impression that the C204 required either 2 or 4 cells to charge, so what was the other cell that was used to charge with your test cell? Also, what was the condition of the "other" cell before it was charged with your test cell?

If you export your CBA data to a .csv file, what is the voltage at the first second for each test?

I am under the impression that when you charge two cells in parallel, you need to charge to a higher voltage in an attempt to equalize them. A higher ending voltage will result in more capacity.

I have noticed that my cells come off other chargers at around 1.46 volts, and come off the Maha C808M at around 1.42 volts. The difference in this charge termination results in around a 10% difference in capacity. 

The advantage to early charge termination is less heat. This could result in longer cycle life, but I have not tested that.

Tom


----------



## bcwang

SilverFox said:


> Hello Bcwang,
> 
> Interesting results...
> 
> I have a couple of questions.
> 
> What is the voltage of the cell right off the chargers?
> 
> I was under the impression that the C204 required either 2 or 4 cells to charge, so what was the other cell that was used to charge with your test cell? Also, what was the condition of the "other" cell before it was charged with your test cell?
> 
> If you export your CBA data to a .csv file, what is the voltage at the first second for each test?
> 
> I am under the impression that when you charge two cells in parallel, you need to charge to a higher voltage in an attempt to equalize them. A higher ending voltage will result in more capacity.
> 
> I have noticed that my cells come off other chargers at around 1.46 volts, and come off the Maha C808M at around 1.42 volts. The difference in this charge termination results in around a 10% difference in capacity.
> 
> The advantage to early charge termination is less heat. This could result in longer cycle life, but I have not tested that.
> 
> Tom



I can give you the results from the csv file once I get home tonight. The results are all .04v too high because my CBA-II has an offset problem. But it is in the mail right now to get repaired. 

For your first question, yes, it charges in pairs so I used a pair of cells that were similar in tested capacity and discharged to the same level by performing the CBA-II tests on them in the same way. Once charged, the first cell I tested in the CBA-II right off the charger while the other cell rested. Once the first cell finished testing in about 40-45 minutes, I tested the second cell. That's why you see 4 results. One right when the light turned green, one around 40 minutes off the charger from the same batch, then one test after trickling overnight, then one 40 minutes off the charger from that batch. These were the same 2 cells I used for every test, including tests on the 808M. I only posted the higher number of the 808M test to try to give it as much benefit to close the gap as I could. I posted all results from the C204W to show even the worst case it did much better than the 808M. In each case the two batteries were equalized by the CBA-II discharge to the same level so I could charge them up again in pairs on the c204w.

I don't know the voltage off the charger since I didn't measure it, but I can measure it once I charge up another batch of cells. But one thing I know for sure is the voltage was way higher than the 808M when seen in the CBA-II test screen. 

The interesting thing about the C204W is, it may terminate once a single cell peaks so none of the cells overcharge. But it has 2 more hours of 160ma charge after that which should balance any slight capacity difference, before it finally goes into a 50ma trickle. However, even without the 2 hour extra charge such as my first test, both cells still performed admirably well.


----------



## bcwang

Al said:


> Anyone have info on Maha 204GT?



I think it's the C401FS charging mechanism (flex negative pulse) in the C204F, except at a slower charge rate (400ma vs 500ma). I believe thomas-distributing contracted Maha to make these especially for them, just like the black C401FS. I can't say I'd want a charger that charges at 400ma these days when batteries are up to 2700mah now. That makes for difficult -deltaV detection and a heck of a long wait. If you want a pair charger I would say the C204W is hard to beat.


----------



## SilverFox

Hello Bcwang,

Thanks.

It looks like the 204 is charging to a higher voltage than the 808.

Tom


----------



## bcwang

Silverfox,

I've got the results for you now: These are all compensated for the .04v error already. This is all done under a 3 amp load.

808M - 1.29v right when done - lasted 4 seconds before it dropped .01v
808M - 1.29v right from trickle - lasted 1 second before it dropped .01v
204W - 1.36v right when green - lasted 3 seconds before it dropped .01v
204W - 1.36v after 40 min rest - lasted 1 second before it dropped .01v
204W - 1.36v right from trickle - lasted 1 second before it dropped .01v
204W - 1.33v after 40 min rest from trickle - lasted 1 second before it dropped .01v


----------



## SilverFox

Hello Bcwang,

So the major difference is the difference between 1.29 volts and 1.36 volts. That means they should come off the charger at 1.43 volts and close to 1.5 volts for the 204. Is that close?

Tom


----------



## bcwang

SilverFox said:


> Hello Bcwang,
> 
> So the major difference is the difference between 1.29 volts and 1.36 volts. That means they should come off the charger at 1.43 volts and close to 1.5 volts for the 204. Is that close?
> 
> Tom



Ok, so I charged some batteries so I could answer your question. 2 cells in each charger.

-808M - cell 1 was 1.45v, I got it as soon as I noticed it finish, which may be up to a minute or two after it actually said "done". cell 2 I saw go done right in front of my eyes and when I measured it immediately it was 1.47v. However, within the first minute, it had already dropped to 1.45v. After 30 minutes both cells are sitting at 1.41v

-204w - both cells were 1.52v off the charger, which I pulled less than a minute after the light turned green. after 30 minutes both cells are sitting at 1.46v

I've never seen the C808M measure so high off the charger, usually it's much lower. And I have a theory for this now. For most of my testing I usually put the batteries in to charge when I sleep, and take them out to use or measure when I wake up. Those times I measured around 1.39v out of the charger and I thought my charger might be seriously undercharging cells compared to your measurements. However, I think the problem is the trickle charge current is so low on this charger that it can't keep the voltage high so it starts dropping. So the longer you wait after charge completion to pull the battery, the lower the measured voltage.

Secondly now, this may mean the 808 would lose the "just charged" extra voltage boost that other chargers exhibit because in essence it is only charging enough to barely maintain cell capacity when on trickle. This is probably true unless you pull the battery right after it's done to test. My earlier tests have always been after letting it trickle for hours.

So I'm going to have to do a little more testing with "exactly done off the charger" vs "let it trickle a few hours after done then test" to see what kind of difference there is. I wonder if cells left longer will actually test lower because it had hours to lose the just charged voltage jolt. In fact, this would explain why after charging a set of sanyo's for a whole day, when I measured them off the charger 1 of my cells was quite a bit lower than the other cells. I later found out this cell is exhibiting high discharge rate, it would be nearly dead within about a week. The trickle rate was probably not enough to compensate for the self discharge so this cell ended up losing capacity during trickle.

In any case, as for your original question. The C204W does end up with cells at a higher voltage than that coming off the 808M.


----------



## Phlack

I always wondered about that. Occasionally, on my accumanager20, after a charge, I'll "reinsert" the batteries. They'll quick charge for a little longer, then report finished. Usually they'll do that for a couple of minutes.

I always wondered if that was killing the batteries, or if that just give a little extra into them? Or if the trickle charge isn't enough to offset the self-discharge. Any ideas on either?

Question: would a higher capacity battery self discharge (I'm talking about the initial self-discharge only) faster than a lower capacity battery?

-Mike


----------



## Flash007

What do you think about these chargers :

- Ansmann Energy 16
- Ansmann Digispeed 4 Ultra

www.ansmann.de 

I own both, and I think they are good chargers, but I want to have your opinions on these.

- Ansmann Energy 16 :

http://www.ansmann.de/de/view.htm?oid=&open=picture1&what=product&id=558

Energy 16 • High-tech desktop chargerHigh-tech charger for up to 16 NiCd/NiMH batteries
​Charger for 1-12 Micro AAA or Mignon AA cells, 1-6 Baby C and Mono D as well as 1-4 9V batteries; Diagnosis of inserted cells; Automatic refresh/discharge function; Faulty battery detection; Better performance of batteries; Microprocessor control; Capacity quick test; Intelligent charge control; Super fast charging; Individual charging process for each battery; Worldwide use due to electronic switch mode power supply and interchangeable power supply; 3 years warranty

Energy 16 • High-tech desktop charger
Dimensions: 256 x 258 x 77 mm

Weight: 1200 gr

Technical Details: Prim: 100-240 V AC / 50-60 Hz 
Sec: 
12 x 1,45 V = 700mA/300mA)
6 x 1,45 V = 1000mA
4 x 10,15V = 70mA

*Specifications:*
Type of battery




/ Charging current



/ Cut-off




















Micro AAA 300 mA -dV
Mignon AA 700 mA -dV
Baby C 1000 mA -dV
Mono D 1000 mA -dV
9V-Block 70 mA -dV


- Ansmann Digispeed 4 Ultra

http://www.ansmann.de/de/view.htm?oid=&open=picture1&what=product&id=614

DIGISPEED 4 ULTRA • 10 min.+ charger incl. 4 AA NiMH batteries 2500 mAh

Super speed charger incl. 4 AA NiMH cells 2500 mAh
​Super speed charger for 1-4 NiCd or NiMH batteries, sizes Micro (AAA) or Mignon (AA); Package includes 10 minute+ charger, AC adaptor (100-240 V), and 4 AA NiMH batteries 2500 mAh; Charging time 10 minutes or more; Microprocessor control of charging status; Temperature safety cut-off; Individual charging process for each battery; Faulty cell detection; Automatic start of charging process as soon as cells are inserted; Trickle charging; Safety timer; Protection against reverse polarity; LED charging status indicators for each cell; 3 years warranty

Opinions ?




Thanks


----------



## wptski

bcwang said:


> Ok, so I charged some batteries so I could answer your question. 2 cells in each charger.
> 
> -808M - cell 1 was 1.45v, I got it as soon as I noticed it finish, which may be up to a minute or two after it actually said "done". cell 2 I saw go done right in front of my eyes and when I measured it immediately it was 1.47v. However, within the first minute, it had already dropped to 1.45v. After 30 minutes both cells are sitting at 1.41v
> 
> -204w - both cells were 1.52v off the charger, which I pulled less than a minute after the light turned green. after 30 minutes both cells are sitting at 1.46v
> 
> I've never seen the C808M measure so high off the charger, usually it's much lower. And I have a theory for this now. For most of my testing I usually put the batteries in to charge when I sleep, and take them out to use or measure when I wake up. Those times I measured around 1.39v out of the charger and I thought my charger might be seriously undercharging cells compared to your measurements. However, I think the problem is the trickle charge current is so low on this charger that it can't keep the voltage high so it starts dropping. So the longer you wait after charge completion to pull the battery, the lower the measured voltage.
> 
> Secondly now, this may mean the 808 would lose the "just charged" extra voltage boost that other chargers exhibit because in essence it is only charging enough to barely maintain cell capacity when on trickle. This is probably true unless you pull the battery right after it's done to test. My earlier tests have always been after letting it trickle for hours.
> 
> So I'm going to have to do a little more testing with "exactly done off the charger" vs "let it trickle a few hours after done then test" to see what kind of difference there is. I wonder if cells left longer will actually test lower because it had hours to lose the just charged voltage jolt. In fact, this would explain why after charging a set of sanyo's for a whole day, when I measured them off the charger 1 of my cells was quite a bit lower than the other cells. I later found out this cell is exhibiting high discharge rate, it would be nearly dead within about a week. The trickle rate was probably not enough to compensate for the self discharge so this cell ended up losing capacity during trickle.
> 
> In any case, as for your original question. The C204W does end up with cells at a higher voltage than that coming off the 808M.


bcwang:

My OBD-II automotive scanner that I carry in my truck died while using it yesterday. I had four old 1.8Ah PowerEx in it. One cell wouldn't even lite one LED on my ZTS MBT-1! I had to jump start it to get it to charge on the C808M which I inserted in slot 1 which maynot mean anything. Using soft mode since they are only 1.8Ah.

That was last night. This morning the cell in slot 1 measured 1.395V but the other are all at least 1.4V. I dropped in four more new PowerEx 1.8Ah cells this morning. We'll see how they check when I get home.

Do you get 1.39V on all your cells, old or new?


----------



## bcwang

wptski said:


> bcwang:
> 
> My OBD-II automotive scanner that I carry in my truck died while using it yesterday. I had four old 1.8Ah PowerEx in it. One cell wouldn't even lite one LED on my ZTS MBT-1! I had to jump start it to get it to charge on the C808M which I inserted in slot 1 which maynot mean anything. Using soft mode since they are only 1.8Ah.
> 
> That was last night. This morning the cell in slot 1 measured 1.395V but the other are all at least 1.4V. I dropped in four more new PowerEx 1.8Ah cells this morning. We'll see how they check when I get home.
> 
> Do you get 1.39V on all your cells, old or new?



How long did you wait for it to get picked up by the 808M before you determined it wouldn't start? I've had to wait up to a minute maybe, every few seconds the LCD icon for it would kind of flash on but then go away, until it finally fully kicked on and started charging. I haven't encountered a cell that hasn't started charging in the 808M yet. You should try waiting a while to see if it auto jumpstarts.

I only got 1.39v per cell when I let it charge overnight, but 1.47 when I measure immediately when the done comes on. So the longer I leave the cell in after done, the lower the voltage is when it comes out. The cells I use to test are HR stamped 2500mah cells that are relatively new.

Flash007,
The only way to know how those chargers are is to test them. The second charger seems interesting, why would they call it a 10+ minute charger? Does that mean it will charge at least 10 minutes? What if your cells are full? There are a lot of questions that can only be answered by testing.


----------



## wptski

bcwang said:


> How long did you wait for it to get picked up by the 808M before you determined it wouldn't start? I've had to wait up to a minute maybe, every few seconds the LCD icon for it would kind of flash on but then go away, until it finally fully kicked on and started charging. I haven't encountered a cell that hasn't started charging in the 808M yet. You should try waiting a while to see if it auto jumpstarts.
> 
> I only got 1.39v per cell when I let it charge overnight, but 1.47 when I measure immediately when the done comes on. So the longer I leave the cell in after done, the lower the voltage is when it comes out. The cells I use to test are HR stamped 2500mah cells that are relatively new.
> 
> Flash007,
> The only way to know how those chargers are is to test them. The second charger seems interesting, why would they call it a 10+ minute charger? Does that mean it will charge at least 10 minutes? What if your cells are full? There are a lot of questions that can only be answered by testing.


bcwang:

I had no icon at all! Like nothing was inserted. These old cells dropped even more and the problem one was 1.37V when I got home. The other set were 1.41V-1.43V after setting all day while I was at work.

Do they discharge that fast in other chargers? Something doesn't add up here!  Do the cells still drop in voltage if you pull them out when the icon shows done? Could there be a drain instead of a trickle charge with your C808M??


----------



## Flash007

"Flash007,
The only way to know how those chargers are is to test them. The second charger seems interesting, why would they call it a 10+ minute charger? Does that mean it will charge at least 10 minutes? What if your cells are full? There are a lot of questions that can only be answered by testing."

​ 
Features :

- Separate charging processes for each battery inserted (individual supervision of each cell position)




- Faulty cell detection​
- Automatic start of the charging process once the batteries make contact regardless of the charging status before insertion ​
- NiMH or NiCd selected via switch;​
- Microprocessor control of the charging status​
- –delta V control and safety timer ​
- Temperature safety cut-off ​
- Safety timer​
- Trickle charging​
- Automatic matching of charging current​
- Protection against reverse polarity​
- LED charging status indicators for each cell​​​​​​​​​Input voltage: 110-240V AC​Charging current: ​

Mignon AA NiMH: 4300 mA NiCd: 1000 mA
Micro AAA NiMH: 1050 mA NiCd: 250 mA



It charges my 2500 mAh Ansmann (HR stamped) in 30 minutes max when completely discharged, and 20-25 minutes for my 2300 mAh

I think 10 minutes is for 1800 mAh cells (maybe 1600 mAh).

If cells are full, it switch to trickle charge immediately
If cell is only a little discharged, it will charge for a little time and then switch to trickle charge.

How test these charge to know if they are good for my batteries or not ?

Here these chargers are very top rated, and I don't think they are bad.



​


----------



## TinderBox (UK)

flash007

try a larger font next time, I have an 19" monitor and i think i have eye strain.

regards.:lolsign:


----------



## bcwang

wptski said:


> bcwang:
> 
> I had no icon at all! Like nothing was inserted. These old cells dropped even more and the problem one was 1.37V when I got home. The other set were 1.41V-1.43V after setting all day while I was at work.
> 
> Do they discharge that fast in other chargers? Something doesn't add up here!  Do the cells still drop in voltage if you pull them out when the icon shows done? Could there be a drain instead of a trickle charge with your C808M??



The C808M has a really low trickle of around 7ma which is why it probably starts dropping voltage once it peaks after the fast charge. Most chargers trickle at a much higher rate. Yes, if I pull them out at 1.47v, it drops to 1.45 within a minute, and by 30 minutes is down to 1.41v. So I don't think the charger is discharging the cells during trickle.


----------



## wptski

bcwang said:


> The C808M has a really low trickle of around 7ma which is why it probably starts dropping voltage once it peaks after the fast charge. Most chargers trickle at a much higher rate. Yes, if I pull them out at 1.47v, it drops to 1.45 within a minute, and by 30 minutes is down to 1.41v. So I don't think the charger is discharging the cells during trickle.


bcwang:

If not, why are you getting only 1.39V when left overnight and I'm not?


----------



## bcwang

wptski said:


> bcwang:
> 
> If not, why are you getting only 1.39V when left overnight and I'm not?



I probably get lower than that when the battery is not in the charger. The resting voltage also depends on the battery right? Different batteries show different characteristics.


----------



## wptski

bcwang said:


> I probably get lower than that when the battery is not in the charger. The resting voltage also depends on the battery right? Different batteries show different characteristics.


bcwang:

Have you tried other cells and got the same results?

EDIT: I checked those four PowerEx 1.8Ah cells that I charged last on the C808M and they are read in the 1.39V range now! If yours drop to that over night, maybe you get much more sleep than me.


----------



## TinderBox (UK)

has anyone tried, UNIROSS 15 MIN CHARGERS.

http://www.uniross.com/UK/info/pages/chargeur_sprint.htm

thanks.


----------



## Flash007

Look at this :

http://www.ansmann.de/en/index.htm?tab=press&pid=614&pr2id=&appid=


----------



## TinderBox (UK)

have you seen the price £45-50 UK pounds or $78-87 dollars.

not cheap.

regards.


----------



## Flash007

I wanted one of the best compact charger, if not the best ! :naughty:


----------



## bcwang

TinderBox (UK) said:


> has anyone tried, UNIROSS 15 MIN CHARGERS.
> 
> http://www.uniross.com/UK/info/pages/chargeur_sprint.htm
> 
> thanks.



I was interested in this charger (LCD 15 minute) when I saw it in Hong Kong, but after reading the manual I changed my mind. Especially after seeing how expensive it was.

-it mentioned a 15 minute safety timer, so larger capacity batteries can't be fully charged without restarting.
-it mentioned cannot mix aa and aaa at the same time, if this is true it's quite limiting
-it charges at 6.5amp, with a 15 minute timer that only puts in 1625mah if you don't include the efficiency loss. So there is something really odd about this whole charger


----------



## bcwang

wptski said:


> bcwang:
> 
> Have you tried other cells and got the same results?
> 
> EDIT: I checked those four PowerEx 1.8Ah cells that I charged last on the C808M and they are read in the 1.39V range now! If yours drop to that over night, maybe you get much more sleep than me.



Weekends you know! Sometimes wake up at noon!


----------



## TinderBox (UK)

yes I have just read the manual, and you right 15min timer at high charge rate.

6500ma for 15min is only 1625mah.

very strange.

this is the link for the manual.

http://62.20.120.61/katalogdata/pdf/18_SPRINT15minLCD_RC103159_EU.pdf

ps.

mabe it finishes the charge in trickel mode of 2600mah.


----------



## wptski

bcwang said:


> Weekends you know! Sometimes wake up at noon!


bcwang:

Here I thought that I slept late!


----------



## SilverFox

Hello Bcwang,

I am reading those specifications that TinderBox has linked for the manual a bit differently.

My guess is that it charges at 6.5 amps for the first 15 minutes, then switches to 2.6 amps for a maximum of 1 hour, then switches to 0.05 amps trickle charge.

That seems like a reasonable charge profile to me. The problem I see is that the charge termination on -12 mV delta V seems a bit high and the batteries may become very hot. I am use to a 0 delta V, or -3 mV delta V for a charge termination value.

I would guess that instead of 15 minutes, this charger would take about 38 minutes to charge up a completely dead 2200 mAh cell.

Tom


----------



## wptski

SilverFox said:


> Hello Bcwang,
> 
> I am reading those specifications that TinderBox has linked for the manual a bit differently.
> 
> My guess is that it charges at 6.5 amps for the first 15 minutes, then switches to 2.6 amps for a maximum of 1 hour, then switches to 0.05 amps trickle charge.
> 
> That seems like a reasonable charge profile to me. The problem I see is that the charge termination on -12 mV delta V seems a bit high and the batteries may become very hot. I am use to a 0 delta V, or -3 mV delta V for a charge termination value.
> 
> I would guess that instead of 15 minutes, this charger would take about 38 minutes to charge up a completely dead 2200 mAh cell.
> 
> Tom


Tom:

On the Triton, the peak sensitivity can be set between 5-20mv per cell and on the Duratrax ICE it's 3-15mv per cell for Ni-MH.


----------



## bcwang

SilverFox said:


> Hello Bcwang,
> 
> I am reading those specifications that TinderBox has linked for the manual a bit differently.
> 
> My guess is that it charges at 6.5 amps for the first 15 minutes, then switches to 2.6 amps for a maximum of 1 hour, then switches to 0.05 amps trickle charge.
> 
> That seems like a reasonable charge profile to me. The problem I see is that the charge termination on -12 mV delta V seems a bit high and the batteries may become very hot. I am use to a 0 delta V, or -3 mV delta V for a charge termination value.
> 
> I would guess that instead of 15 minutes, this charger would take about 38 minutes to charge up a completely dead 2200 mAh cell.
> 
> Tom



The link Tenderbox has above is to a spec sheet which I have not seen before. The manual is lacking I guess. This is what I read. http://www.uniross.com/fichiers/sprint_15min_LCD_356.pdf

As to the -12mV, maybe the higher the charge rate the more larger the voltage drop. Did you ever measure or find out what the deltaV value is for the energizer 15 minute charger?

I'm wondering how this charger works now. The fact that it uses a timer for the 15 minute portion of it makes no sense, because if the cell was able to be fully charged in that 15 minute portion, it might as well have been charged at the high rate even if it was empty. I don't see the benefit of turning down the charge rate based on a timer. It just slows down the charger for no consistent benefit.

Plus, calling that thing a 15 minute charger is ridiculous if it takes 38 minutes to charge a 2200mah cell. My 30 minute charger takes 43 minutes to charge a 2300mah cell, so that's like 5 minutes longer for 100 more mah in a charger that's supposed to be half as fast. Even that spec sheet linked above says cells are charged in "15 minutes or less", haha!

I'd be fun to test one of these to see what it's all about.


----------



## dta116

Just what exactly is 1c, 2c c10, ect... charging/discharging rates?


----------



## TinderBox (UK)

anybody tried the energizer CH30MN 30 minute charger, it`s discontinued now but it has individual charging indicators which i like.
but it do not appear to have a fan.?

this is a link to the manual

edit: a guy on ebay has 47 for sale.

http://data.energizer.com/PDFs/ch30mn.pdf

thankyou.


----------



## Anders

dta116 said:


> Just what exactly is 1c, 2c c10, ect... charging/discharging rates?



[font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The C-rate is a unit by which charge and discharge currents are scaled. A charge current of 1000mAh, or 1C, will charge a 1000mAh battery in slightly more than one hour. A 1C discharge lasts one hour.

Anders 
[/font]


----------



## SilverFox

Hello Dta116,

Welcome to CPF.

To expand on what Anders has said with a few more examples...

When you have a 2500 mAh capacity battery, a 0.1C rate would be 250 mA, a 0.5C rate would be 1250 mA, and of course the 1C rate is 2500 mA.

In this case C=2500 mA. If the battery has 2700 mAh of capacity, C would equal 2700 mA, and if the battery has 2000 mAh, C would be 2000 mA.

Standard capacity testing done by the manufacturer consists of a 5 hour discharge, or a 0.2C discharge rate. The first forming charge on a new cell should be a 0.1C charge rate for 16 hours. After a few cycles, the time can be reduced to 12-14 hours. It takes longer to charge because of inefficiencies in the charge cycle (some of the energy is lost to heat).

Tom


----------



## bcwang

wptski said:


> bcwang:
> 
> Have you tried other cells and got the same results?
> 
> EDIT: I checked those four PowerEx 1.8Ah cells that I charged last on the C808M and they are read in the 1.39V range now! If yours drop to that over night, maybe you get much more sleep than me.



I just woke up to an overnight charge in soft mode of 2 kodak 2500 and 2 GP 2300 mah batteries. One kodak was 1.45, one was 1.44, both GP's were 1.43. So it seems that soft mode puts more charge into the cells. I will retest the C808M in soft mode once I get my cbaII back. I'll also try to test the 204W in the slower mode to see if even more capacity gets put into the cells.


----------



## javafool

I didn't read every post so I don't know if anyone has mentioned this about the Ccrane KC-983 Quick Charger. I bought one of these and although I was originally happy with the charger, the spring broke on one of the positions while I was charging 'D' batteries. CCrane promptly replaced the charger and the second did the same thing. 

I took this charger apart and actually, there is a little plastic button with a deep groove in it that holds the springs. When the springs are stretched far enough to hold 'D' batteries, the plastic buttons break off and there is no tension in that position any longer. After I found this out, I returned the second unit for a refund.

Terry


----------



## willtut2005

Hi guys,
Im looking for a high quality charger.AA's & D's (ni-mh)are the sizes.
I was recommended the ansmen 16...sounds great but am i waisting my money?I guess my question is:For the sizes i mentioned above,whats the best choice ? I would prefer a slow charger.

Thanks ahead,
William


----------



## MattK

willtut2005 said:


> Hi guys,
> Im looking for a high quality charger.AA's & D's (ni-mh)are the sizes.
> I was recommended the ansmen 16...sounds great but am i waisting my money?I guess my question is:For the sizes i mentioned above,whats the best choice ? I would prefer a slow charger.
> 
> Thanks ahead,
> William




IMO yes, it's a waste of money - you could have 4-5 Vanson BC1-HU's for the coin you'd spend on the Ansmann.

Also, AFAIK, Vanson is the OEM Mfr. for most/all of the 'Energizer' chargers.


----------



## SilverFox

Hello William,

The Ansmann 16 has the benefit of being able to do several cells at a time.

If your needs do not demand charging lots of cells at once, this charger may be worth looking at. It is cheap enough that you could get multiple chargers if you need to charge more cells at a time.

Tom


----------



## willtut2005

Hi Tom,
I need this to charge 9 AA's & 4 D's.I narrowed my decision to either MHC808M or Ansmen16 or 8 series.

I guess the cost of these smart chargers is minimal compared to cost of my growing collection. 

Thanks,
William


----------



## Kevin Tan

Hi Silverfox,

I have been hankering to get either a triton or the Duratrax Ice for mainly lions. Wats ur opinion on these 2? 

Mostly to charge lions with the MC and some cordless tools and the smattering of Nimh AA bats.


----------



## Handlobraesing

TinderBox (UK) said:


> anybody tried the energizer CH30MN 30 minute charger, it`s discontinued now but it has individual charging indicators which i like.
> but it do not appear to have a fan.?
> 
> this is a link to the manual
> 
> edit: a guy on ebay has 47 for sale.
> 
> http://data.energizer.com/PDFs/ch30mn.pdf
> 
> thankyou.



I have one. The batteries get almost too hot to touch.


----------



## SilverFox

Hello Kevin,

I think they are both good chargers.

You should ask Bill (wptski), he has both and could give you a side by side comparison.

Tom


----------



## SilverFox

Hello Handlobraesing,

I wonder if you may be a little more precise on your observation...

People react to heat differently. In my case, too hot to touch is like pulling a baked potato from the oven. I can only hold it for a few seconds, then have to toss it from hand to hand. It is around 160 F.

Tom


----------



## TinderBox (UK)

well I decided to order an energizer CH30MN 30 minute charger, as I like indervidual charging led`s.

As it does not have a fan, I hope the cells don`t get that hot.

anyway have you tried to sleep in a room, with some of the noise these fans make.

I hope i don`t have to dig out the oven gloves.:lolsign:

regards.


----------



## wptski

Kevin Tan said:


> Hi Silverfox,
> 
> I have been hankering to get either a triton or the Duratrax Ice for mainly lions. Wats ur opinion on these 2?
> 
> Mostly to charge lions with the MC and some cordless tools and the smattering of Nimh AA bats.


Like SilverFox stated, I have both and both are made by the same company too. Some refer to ICE as the Triton II but I don't, the specs are different.

I don't have the specs with me, so I'll go from memory and "correct" it later, if needed. 

For one you can charge 12 Ni-MH cells on the Triton but not the ICE, I believe the limit is 10. Both have safety timers but the ICE is in seconds(I forget the max) and can't be cancelled! Both can use the same temperature probe. The ICE has a cell resistance parameter the Triton doesn't. On the ICE you can vary the current on Ni-MH cells during a discharge cycle, not sure about the charge cycle. The ICE has a percentage of charge parameter which can be used as a safety in case it misses termination or you want to charge Li-Ion cells for storage. The ICE has another feature that I've never used where you can program your own four step Ni-MH cycle by current and one of the four steps. Their about the same charging Li-Ion cell as far as coming off at about 4.15V.


----------



## bcwang

wptski said:


> bcwang:
> 
> I had no icon at all! Like nothing was inserted. These old cells dropped even more and the problem one was 1.37V when I got home. The other set were 1.41V-1.43V after setting all day while I was at work.
> 
> Do they discharge that fast in other chargers? Something doesn't add up here!  Do the cells still drop in voltage if you pull them out when the icon shows done? Could there be a drain instead of a trickle charge with your C808M??



Had one battery go completely dead in my ipod battery pack, it measured .04v when I pulled it out. I put it in my 808M with another battery. It took about a minute before the LCD showed it existed and then it started charging. Whew. I wonder if I lost some capacity in that battery. But the 808 was still able to charge it even though the voltage was so low.


----------



## wptski

bcwang said:


> Had one battery go completely dead in my ipod battery pack, it measured .04v when I pulled it out. I put it in my 808M with another battery. It took about a minute before the LCD showed it existed and then it started charging. Whew. I wonder if I lost some capacity in that battery. But the 808 was still able to charge it even though the voltage was so low.


bcwang:

I don't think that I waited a minute before pulling it!


----------



## Jiffy

Well, my Ansmann Energy 8 seems to be playing up. The first slot won't turn green and seems to continue charging the battery judging by temperature and voltage readings. I'm probably going to get a replacment but thought I'd check out some other options.

My big problems is that I am in the UK so have to add a 1/3rd on to the US prices to allow for customs, VAT & carrier surcharges. That and my modest means rules out many of the chargers mentioned here.

My requirements are:
1) Individual charging.
2) To charge at least 6 AA or AAA cells.
3) My priority is on higher capacity, not on speed charging.

The Ansmann 8 ticks the boxes and cost me £44 delivered ($77). Since I don't need really need C, D or PP9 charging, would 2 4xAA type chargers make sense? I'm needing to buy some more AA & AAA Nimhs so the BC900/RS900 LaCrosse looks interesting as it seems to come with 4xAA (2000mah) and 4xAAA (700mah). From what I can make out, 2 chargers + 16 cells should cost me €100 (about £70) with no VAT or customs to worry about since it's in the European Union. So my questions are:
1) Are the supplied batteries half decent?
2) How reliable are these chargers?
3) Am I just talking a load of nonsense or is this reasoning sound?
4) Any better ideas?

Thanks for any help!

Cheers, Jiffy


----------



## TinderBox (UK)

have a look here, it`s got quite a selection and the postage is only £1.95

regards.

http://www.tantronics.co.uk/acatalog/Tantronics_UK_Battery_Chargers_10.html


----------



## SilverFox

Hello Jiffy,

The free LaCrosse batteries tested out reasonably well for lower demand applications (less than 2.0 amps), but there was some inconsistency between them. 

In single cell applications, this is not a problem, however in multi cell applications it would be better to pay close attention and re-charge at the first signs of performance change.

If you want to go with two 4 bay chargers, looking at the link that TinderBox provided, the specifications on this one looks pretty good. I am not familiar with the Fameart brand, but the specifications look good.

Tom


----------



## TinderBox (UK)

hello silverfox

fameart is just a brandname they just put their own brand on other manufactures products.

have a look at this link, I think it is a rebranded vanson BC-1HU charger.

edit: link removed.

PS. I have heard that FameArt nimh 2500ma are SANYO`s

regards.


----------



## SilverFox

Hello TinderBox,

I saw that and initially thought the same thing. However, if you read the specifications you will find that the listed charger charges batteries in pairs. The BC-1HU is an independent channel charger.

Tom


----------



## TinderBox (UK)

yes, I did not realise it was the two channel version, I`ve seen those before.

It look like that vanson case get`s about a bit.:lolsign:

regards.


----------



## willtut2005

Hi Silverfox,
I p/u sanyo 1hr. charger w/ 6AA 2500 & 2AAA 900mah @ costco for $19.99.
What effects will this have towards battery performance.Will i get less lumens,runtime ,or battery life?I like the idea of fast charging ,but what am i sacrificing?

Actually, input from anyone is much appreciated.

Thanks


----------



## k1_

I have a charger that came with one of my bike lights that I'm really impressed with. Particularly after going head-to-head with the charger that comes with the Stenlight, I figured everyone would like to know about it.

The company is Vicious Power in Australia. Their charger is custom built to charge Lithium Ion battery packs, and incorporates its own charging algorithm and temperature monitoring. The packs I use are 14.4v, 2.4Ah rechargeables, and they charge really fast. I've never had a battery pack on the charger more than an hour or so, and never had the battery packs heat up while charging.

In contrast, my Stenlight came with a charger that looks like the one on Battery Space. This charger appears to charge at .5A, so the Stenlight battery can take 4 hours or more to charge. Also, I noticed that the charger gets quite warm during charge cycles, although the battery stays at ambient.

I contacted the folks at Vicious, because I'd really like to charge my Stenlight battery faster. However, they said my charger is essentially fixed for 14.4v, so no go. But they also said that they can custom configure the charger for any battery configuration before they ship it, in case any CPFers want one.

The Stenlight charger lists for $30, the Battery Space one is $20, and the Vicious charger is about AUS$100 (about $75). So you certainly pay for performance. And the Vicious Charger isn't as flexible as a Triton, which doesn't cost that much more.

k1


----------



## LEDagent

Okay...I think I've come to a decision on a charger, unless any of you could convince me to something else.

The Vanson BC1HU.

At first I was going to go for the Maha C801/808 over the LaCross (because of it's instability), however, the C801 is an 80 dollar charger...not very affordable with my budget.

I do want/need the dscharge cycle. Regardless of what people might say about NiMHs not having the memory effect, I have been seing decreasing runtimes in my batteries only after 50 charges or so in my Maha C401FS...which supposedly has a charging algorithm that aleviates the need for a discharge cycle.

I don't know any other charger under the 50 dollar range that can charge a battery (as) completely AND have a dicharge function. I know i'm taking a step down from the Maha, but what it comes down to in the end is...what...a difference of a hundred or so millamps/hours of capacity? Seeing that Brock and Silverfox are using this same charger...I'm thinking that it should be more than enoegh for me. Heck...I don't even use C and D size batteries!

AdvancedMart, who's in the San Diego area where I live is selling the Vanson for about $35....i'd feel more comforable at this price range...what do you think?


----------



## Dukester

wptski said:


> Like SilverFox stated, I have both and both are made by the same company too. Some refer to ICE as the Triton II but I don't, the specs are different.
> 
> I don't have the specs with me, so I'll go from memory and "correct" it later, if needed.
> 
> For one you can charge 12 Ni-MH cells on the Triton but not the ICE, I believe the limit is 10. Both have safety timers but the ICE is in seconds(I forget the max) and can't be cancelled! Both can use the same temperature probe. The ICE has a cell resistance parameter the Triton doesn't. On the ICE you can vary the current on Ni-MH cells during a discharge cycle, not sure about the charge cycle. The ICE has a percentage of charge parameter which can be used as a safety in case it misses termination or you want to charge Li-Ion cells for storage. The ICE has another feature that I've never used where you can program your own four step Ni-MH cycle by current and one of the four steps. Their about the same charging Li-Ion cell as far as coming off at about 4.15V.



_From Memory??? Not shabby at all Bill... I am surprised that you overlooked a big factor more so with the RC Community. The ICE has the ability to discharge at a range from 0.1 - 10.0A. Also a fast charge range of 0.1 - 8.0A. I don't think if my memory serves me right the Triton does not come close to those figures?

Dave_


----------



## bp044

has version 33 cleared up all or most of la crosse bc-900 problems ? will there be a version 34 ? I need a charger to do AA nimh . slow charge rate o.k.please suggest optional chargers if bc-900 still problematic


----------



## Nell

I have a version 32 that I got very recently and using it scares me everytime I use it. I now place it above a cast iron grill and have a smoke detector near it just in case. I like it for giving so much information on each cell, but.... I think I should return mine or just get another charger. My old Maha felt safer than this. Knowledge is good but scary.


----------



## Jiffy

Thanks Tinderbox & SilverFox,

If it hadn't have been for you I'd probably have fallen for that 'week' imitation Vanson!

I don't think I'l be able to get a refund on my Ansmann so no hurry at the moment. I'll keep my eye on this thread though.


----------



## TinderBox (UK)

hello silverfox

when you are testing the chargers, did you take note of the maximum temprature that the battery`s reached before they were finished.

I read that you were worried about the temprature that some batterys got in certain charger.

The energizer webite says to keep the battery temp 40c or bellow to maxamise cell life.

I suppose you can just about charge a cell as fast as you want as long as you keep it cool.

do you have any information on how hot the batterys got in different chargers.

thankyou.


----------



## SilverFox

Hello TinderBox,

I don't keep track of the exact temperature, however since I am checking the cells right at the end of the charge cycle, I am aware if I can hold them in my hand or if the heat shrink is burning off or melting.

Tom


----------



## dta116

Tom;

Have you , or anyone else, tried any Lenmar chargers http://www.lenmar.com/?

I also have noticed there are no real comparison of Li-Ion chargers, They are reviewed, but only tested with NiMh batteries. Are there plans to review these chargers? It seems most members are using Lithium rechargable cells and are using the Nano or DSDs' because these are the only ones mentioned. 

The Triton, Ice and Shultze are other chargers, but I do not see them reviewed with the lithium cells.

I really would like to see some comparison of these LI chargers if possible.

Thank you alll for your support.


----------



## bp044

Vanson bc 1hu V.S. Lacrosse bc-900. which charger ? primary use for 2500ma nimh AA. Fast charging not a priority. Please pros and cons of these chargers or other reccomendations.


----------



## Flash007

Ansmann Energy 16 charge current :

- AAA : 300mA
- AA : 700mA
- C/D : 1000mA
- 9v : 70mA



The answer from technical support, concerning the trickle current charge for the Ansmann Energy 16 :


Dear Mr. Kose,

thank you for sending your e-mail.

The trickle charge current is:

charging current
---------------- = trickle charge current / mA
60 

I Hope this information responsed your questions. 

If you have any more question please let me know. 

Best regards,
.....


Thus, trickle charge current are, for :

- AAA : 300mA/60 = 5mA
- AA : 700mA/60 = 11,66mA
- C/D : 1000mA/60 = 16,66mA
- 9v : 70mA/60 = 1,16mA

Do you think these values are low enough to permit the accus to stay in the charger all the time once charged ?

Thanks


----------



## jayflash

Does the LaCrosse BC-900 offer the greatest flexibility and display information of the tested chargers? 

Is there another charger that will measure cell capacity (like the BC-900) for Li-Ions, along with C & D size cells?

I may have missed some info, here, but it seems the LaCrosse offers the greatest customizing of individual channel discharge and charge currents. Is there a better choice for this feature and good display?

Thanks.


----------



## TinderBox (UK)

not if you ask a jedi.

only the maha C777 plus or RC style chargers.

or if you are europe the CHARGE MANAGER 2010 or 2020.

thats all I know of.


----------



## jayflash

Are discharge rates user selectable for testing the cell's capacity and conditioning, with the BC-900? Thought I read it was but can't find the info now. Thanks again.


----------



## Redjam

Yes on the BC-900 the discharge rate is half the charge rate that you select, so in that sense you can select it.


----------



## jayflash

Thanks for the details. Redjam & TinderBox.


----------



## jayflash

I picked up the LaCrosse BC-900 which displays version 32. What precautions are suggested for this charger? Can't remember exactly what problem happened with some versions. Is #32 the current incarnation?

Thanks Guys.


----------



## jayflash

OK, finally found the meltdown info. Unless the BC-900 is actually charging higher than the displayed 200mA how is it possible for that little current to melt a cell into the charger? We're talking about, only, a watt with all four cells in place.

At the 1amp rate I can understand where lack of termination would be a problem. Did I misunderstand the nature of the overcharge malfunction?


----------



## SilverFox

Hello Jayflash,

I believe the heat comes from the electro-chemical process going on within the battery during charging, and not from the charger electronics per say.

I have been surprised at the performance reports concerning the melt downs, but they were happening with what seemed to be a regular frequency, hence the warnings. I have also noted that I have not heard of any problems with this in the last few months.

It is possible that we ran into a bad batch of batteries. It is also possible that as a result of the warnings people are paying attention to their charging habits and charging at rates more suitable to their batteries. It still remains a possibility that a batch of chargers had a poor connection between the thermocouple and the metal sense strip which would prevent the charger from shutting down in high heat conditions. Also, we don't completely know what changes were made between Ver 32 and Ver 33.

I continue to use mine, almost daily, but pay attention to it. The only time I have had heat issues is when I was trying to revive some batteries that had been in storage for an extended period of time. I actually had the charger shut off due to high heat a couple of times during this process, but usually don't see this at all.

I also continue to recommend monitoring the heat of the cells while charging (this goes for all chargers), charging on a heat and chemical resistant surface, charging away from walls and drapes, and pulling the cells off the charger when things don't seem to be going properly rather than waiting for the charger to finish the charge, and not leaving the cells in the charger for storage. A smoke alarm in the area is a plus.

Enjoy your charger, follow these few simple precautions, and let us know if any problems arise.

Tom


----------



## jayflash

Thanks for your reply, Tom. With all the time you've already spent advancing our knowledge, I appreciate the extra time taken to fill in the blanks for me. I hadn't considered the possibility of bad cells. 

Per your safety cautions, I do often check the charging cell's temperature. So far, so good.

Thanks again!


----------



## Jiffy

Ok, it seems my battery needs may be changing so I'm now thinking of getting a charger that gives useful information about the batteries it's testing. My big problem is that I'm in the UK.

I've found the BC-900 Ver. 33) here for £38.99 delivered which I could afford:
http://www.batterylogic.co.uk/technoline/technoline-i-charger.asp

Does anyone know a better UK price for that? Also, where can I get the Charge Manager 2010?


----------



## TinderBox (UK)

I have the 2010, it`s a good charger, mostly automatic with some manual settings.

but it has two large fans in the back, and is quite noisey.

I have it in a spare bedroom, because of the noise.

I`m not in the house at the moment, if you still interested in getting one let me know their around £80 each.

regards.


----------



## Kevin Tan

Any1 knows where I can get a BC900 shipped to Malaysia? JS Burley used to stock them but not anymore?


----------



## Flash007

I've seen the Charge Manager 2020 :
Do you think it's the best consumer charger on the market ?

Some information here, but in german language :

http://cm2020.sourceforge.net/


























Power pack:

Input: 100-240 V AC, 50 to 60 Hz

max. 75 W

Output:

Slot 1 to 8: 3V DC / max. 4A

Slot A and B: 15V DC / max. 21mA

Protective class: 2

Type of protection: IP20

Fuses: * 3 A slow

Charging current

Total charging current max. 16A

Charge current slot 1-4 max. 4 A

Charge current slot 5-8 max. 2 A

Round cells without POWER mode 300mA to max. 2A

Round cells with POWER mode 600mA to max. 4A

9V block accumulator 21mA

Discharge current:

Round cells max. 850 mA

9V block accumulator 16mA

max. voltage on the

contacts: 3 V respectively 15 VDC (direct current)​


----------



## Flash007

I own the Ansmann Energy 16, and I am asking if I must buy another charger to charge faster D (R20) high capacity accus (12 Ah) that will come with my Tri-Lux UWOJ 2D Mag mod (from Eric "Millermod") :naughty: :naughty: .

My Ansmann charge D accus at 1000mA. 
Not bad, but it will take approximately 15 hours for a complete charge.

The Charge Manager 2020 can charge until 4000mA, it's programmable.

4000mA with 4 accus max
2000mA with 8 accus max

My Ansmann Energy 16 :


----------



## ianb

on the Schulze 330 you said...


SilverFox said:


> ... I believe a 30 amp unit would be adequate. It works fine on a car battery and will even warn you if your battery voltage falls below 11.25 volts.


Does that mean a supply which is variable and you adjust it to the output you want, with the schulse requiring 15A max?? Or can you just plug a 30A supply in?
..never ending questions, sorry 
thanks, Ian


----------



## rdh226

Flash007 said:


> I've seen the Charge Manager 2020 :
> Do you think it's the best consumer charger on the market ?
> 
> Some information here, but in german language :
> 
> http://cm2020.sourceforge.net/
> 
> ...


Pretty interesting; it would appear to have a serial connection and software
packages for Windoze and Linux!

How cool is that? And only 160 Euros! (essentially the same price as a magcharger)

Doesn't do lithium batteries though.


----------



## SilverFox

Hello Ian,

The Schulze maximum charge rate is 5.5 amps. You need to add to that some overhead for the maximum current draw from the power supply. A 30 amp supply is a bit much, but if it is a very clean supply with little ripple, it will work fine. 

I set the voltage and let the Schulze draw whatever current it needs.

Tom


----------



## TinderBox (UK)

It would be nice if they made battery chargers with some sort of user selectable alarm.

to let you know when you batteries are finished charging, instead of having to check every five minutes.

if their is one, let me know.

thanks.


----------



## bcwang

TinderBox (UK) said:


> It would be nice if they made battery chargers with some sort of user selectable alarm.
> 
> to let you know when you batteries are finished charging, instead of having to check every five minutes.
> 
> if their is one, let me know.
> 
> thanks.



The Quest Q2 charger has an alarm after each cell finishes. So you hear it 4 times everytime you charge 4 cells.


----------



## niemidc

k1_ said:


> In contrast, my Stenlight came with a charger that looks like the one on Battery Space. This charger appears to charge at .5A, so the Stenlight battery can take 4 hours or more to charge. Also, I noticed that the charger gets quite warm during charge cycles, although the battery stays at ambient.
> k1



The StenLight CL84-1 charger has a peak charge rate of 1 amp, though it goes much more slowly after it gets to around 80% charged, so full charge time can be in the 3-4 hour range. The batteries are spec'd to tolerate a charge at the 1C rate (i.e. 2.3-2.4 amps peak in this case), so you can go faster with a more powerful charger. We've seen charge times for a full charge of around 2 hours with chargers that can do 2 amps peak (again, with some intentional slowing down during the last 10-20% of the charge).

By the way, I don't think it makes much sense to lump NiMH chargers with Li Ion chargers -- the issues involved are totally different. It is actually far easier to reliably charge Li Ion batteries, which is one of the reasons that Stensat never offered NiMH batteries (even though they work just fine with its lamps).


----------



## dta116

There are many chargers with alarms of user selectable types, although most are chargers designed for use with RC battery packs. I use one for all types of batteries and build my own holders.

Duratrax Ice
Great Plains Triton
Orbit Microloader.....and many more, most have clip leads or pack connectors.


----------



## IamMatt

Any update on this, Laurence? I noticed there were no replies to your query, but I am leaning towards either the BC1HU or the Accumanager 20.

Matt



LEDagent said:


> Okay...I think I've come to a decision on a charger, unless any of you could convince me to something else.
> 
> The Vanson BC1HU.
> 
> At first I was going to go for the Maha C801/808 over the LaCross (because of it's instability), however, the C801 is an 80 dollar charger...not very affordable with my budget.
> 
> I do want/need the dscharge cycle. Regardless of what people might say about NiMHs not having the memory effect, I have been seing decreasing runtimes in my batteries only after 50 charges or so in my Maha C401FS...which supposedly has a charging algorithm that aleviates the need for a discharge cycle.
> 
> I don't know any other charger under the 50 dollar range that can charge a battery (as) completely AND have a dicharge function. I know i'm taking a step down from the Maha, but what it comes down to in the end is...what...a difference of a hundred or so millamps/hours of capacity? Seeing that Brock and Silverfox are using this same charger...I'm thinking that it should be more than enoegh for me. Heck...I don't even use C and D size batteries!
> 
> AdvancedMart, who's in the San Diego area where I live is selling the Vanson for about $35....i'd feel more comforable at this price range...what do you think?


----------



## daberti

Posting here as I'm experiencing lot of troubles with Triton charger.

Quote:
Originally Posted by *daberti*
_Trying with a AA NiMh Sanyo 1850mAh now. Previously charged with LaCrosse BC900.
Charged at 300mAh on Triton, the only message I got is an END flashing and minutes elapsed during charge (66mAh of charge).
now I'll try doing a 200mAh discharge.
Remember that external power supply is 12v 1.2A max.
I guess something I miss is making some mess here.
I can have batts better charged with BC900 than with Triton :thumbsdow_



Update: 
With Sanyo 1850mAh batts and Triton, I cannot get more than 1,37v right out of the charger. With BC900 I can get 1.44.
But what is weird is that amperage (after discharge/charge) is pretty silly: 189mAh or so.
Any hint?
Instead when discharging/charging with BC900 correct mAh values are shown.

TIA


----------



## Bright Scouter

Has anyone really got a big preference between the 808, the Ansmanns or the accumanager for charging C's and D's? I have a charger for the 9vs and a couple for the AA and AAAs. But am starting to need some rechargeable C's. Thanks!


----------



## Handlobraesing

2650mAh Duracell battery (discharged at C/4.5 after one hour rest period) 

w- Duracell 15min charger (charge until light goes out)2.0Ah​w - Duracell 30 minute charger, double charge (charge again after light goes out)2.6Ah​So you're missing out on a considerably amount of capacity. So called 15 minute isn't "15 minute to full capacity"


----------



## wptski

Handlobraesing said:


> 2650mAh Duracell battery (discharged at C/4.5 after one hour rest period)
> 
> w- Duracell 15min charger (charge until light goes out)2.0Ah​w - Duracell 30 minute charger, double charge (charge again after light goes out)2.6Ah​So you're missing out on a considerably amount of capacity. So called 15 minute isn't "15 minute to full capacity"


The cycle isn't done when the LED goes out! I'll add to a thread I started on the D-15 sometime but it starts out at about 8A, charges for sometime, stops for a few minutes, restarts at just under 7A, LED goes with fan running, fan stops, charges at 450ma for 30 minutes and drops to 100ma for another 30 minutes to reach the final end of cycle.


----------



## TinderBox (UK)

is their any conclusion to which is the best charger.

the energizer 15, or the duracell 15.

1 : what is the maximum charging capacity.

2 : do they fully charger the battey`s

3 : how hot do the battery`s get.

4 : do they trickle charge.

thanks.


----------



## wptski

TinderBox (UK) said:


> is their any conclusion to which is the best charger.
> 
> the energizer 15, or the duracell 15.
> 
> 1 : what is the maximum charging capacity.
> 
> 2 : do they fully charger the battey`s
> 
> 3 : how hot do the battery`s get.
> 
> 4 : do they trickle charge.
> 
> thanks.


The answer would be how hard the two are on the cells, they both use different PWM current but at different duration, etc. SilverFox's Charger ShootOut has the E-15 list but not the D-15. Trickle? The D-15 does drop to 100ma but just for thirty minutes.. I just got a better clamp probe so I can look at the E-15 again. The cells I checked on the D-15 got to around 120F or so.


----------



## Lite_me

wptski said:


> The cycle isn't done when the LED goes out! I'll add to a thread I started on the D-15 sometime but it starts out at about 8A, charges for sometime, stops for a few minutes, restarts at just under 7A, LED goes with fan running, fan stops, charges at 450ma for 30 minutes and drops to 100ma for another 30 minutes to reach the final end of cycle.


wptski... Thanks for this. With little to no documentation coming with the charger, infomation like this is invaluable. 
I take it these are the values for charging AA's. Have you tested the rates for AAA's? Surely it's not the same.


----------



## wptski

Lite_me said:


> wptski... Thanks for this. With little to no documentation coming with the charger, infomation like this is invaluable.
> I take it these are the values for charging AA's. Have you tested the rates for AAA's? Surely it's not the same.


Yes, AA's. I haven't looked at the AAA cycle but it probably should be about a third of the current but that's just a guess right now.


----------



## Lucero

Vanson for $20 at Harbor Freight.

Cheaper than the $35 quoted above. 

*Lucero*


----------



## daberti

*Triton Charger and Ni-Mh Energizer 2500mAh*

I'm hitting my head against some problems.
1)Triton setted at 5min Peak Delay at start, 5mv Peak Sensitivity, 200mAh charge current, thermal probe setted at 125F. No time limit
(After previous complete discharge at 500mAh and 0.9V cutoff), the cell charging is not complete after that 2900mAh have been delivered to the battery. At this point the Max Capacity (2.9A) cuts the charging process.

2)Charging at 1A with 300mAh Top Off value: now the charge process comes to an END status after that 2460mAh have been delivered to the battery.
Discharging at 0.5A shows 2280mAh.


What the hell is going on out here?


TIA


----------



## SilverFox

*Re: Triton Charger and Ni-Mh Energizer 2500mAh*

Hello Daberti,

I don't know what capacity battery you are charging, but let's assume it is a 2400 mAh cell.

Charging NiMh chemistry is not 100% efficient. At low charging rates you have to put back in 140 - 160% of what you took out to get to a full charge. On top of this, charging at low rates inhibits the end of charge signal that the charger is looking for.

Let's check some numbers. If your cells are 2400 mAh and you are charging at 200 mA, your charge rate is around 0.08C. With 2400 mAh cells you need to put over 140% back in, so you would expect to see a charged capacity of over 3360 mAh. In your case (if my numbers are close) your maximum capacity is terminating the charge before the cell has reached full charge.

In order to get a strong end of charge signal, it is usually recommend to charge at a minimum rate of 0.5C.

Tom


----------



## wptski

*Re: Triton Charger and Ni-Mh Energizer 2500mAh*



daberti said:


> I'm hitting my head against some problems.
> 1)Triton setted at 5min Peak Delay at start, 5mv Peak Sensitivity, 200mAh charge current, thermal probe setted at 125F. No time limit
> (After previous complete discharge at 500mAh and 0.9V cutoff), the cell charging is not complete after that 2900mAh have been delivered to the battery. At this point the Max Capacity (2.9A) cuts the charging process.
> 
> 2)Charging at 1A with 300mAh Top Off value: now the charge process comes to an END status after that 2460mAh have been delivered to the battery.
> Discharging at 0.5A shows 2280mAh.
> 
> 
> What the hell is going on out here?
> 
> 
> TIA


Check your Max Input setting. It's not the Max Capacity in the numbered setup, that value is only for your record and has no bearing on the charge cycle.


----------



## daberti

*Re: Triton Charger and Ni-Mh Energizer 2500mAh*



wptski said:


> Check your Max Input setting. It's not the Max Capacity in the numbered setup, that value is only for your record and has no bearing on the charge cycle.


 
Thanks Wptski and SilverFox. I'll do per your advice.


----------



## LNL40

SilverFox, you stated you had to put in 140% to 160% at low rates. Do have any idea how NIMH behave at higher rates closer to 1/C? Is charging more or less efficient at a higher charge rate?


----------



## SilverFox

Hello LNL40,

At higher charge rates the efficiency gets a little better...

I just pulled 1000 mAh from a pack and at 1C put 1379 mA back in.

Tom


----------



## daberti

Now I'm charging my 2500mAh Energizer at 0.2mAh. Put back 3300mAh and goes on....


----------



## LNL40

SilverFox, 

Thanks for the answer. I charge my Energizer 2500mAh at about 2A and the charge is terminated by -deltaV around 2525mAh. An immediate discharge at 2A gives around 2350mAh and at 1A rate gives a little more, maybe close to 2400mAh. If I continue the charge at about 1/10C for 30 min. and then discharge, I can get 2450-2475mAh.

What I'm thinking is that NIMH seem pretty efficient at accepting charge until they reach close to their capacity. Topping of, or overcharge seems very inefficient. I was thinking of running some test at different rates and/or to different levels of charge to get an idea how they respond. Any thoughts?

For now, I just let my cells terminate charge after 2500mAh or so and accept their capacity as 2350mAh. I'm hoping avoiding overcharge will extend their useful life. I'm using a FMA Supernova 250S charger I bought years ago for my R/C packs. It seems accurate enough, but I haven't verifed it with a Fluke and stopwatch.

Kevin


----------



## SilverFox

Hello Daberti,

How warm are your cells? If they go from warm to hot, terminate the charge. 

Charging at 0.2 amps does not produce a significant end of charge signal. I would suggest a manual termination (stop charging by taking the cells off the charger), if they get hot, if you run over 16 hours, or if you put more than 4000 mA back in.

Tom


----------



## SilverFox

Hello Kevin,

You are correct in your thinking. The 15 minute chargers use the same idea to charge cells. They put a fast bulk charge in, then top off with a trickle charge.

It is interesting to note that the electric cars offer an 8 - 10 year warranty on their battery packs and consider a full charge at 80% of the full capacity. Perhaps we can get more life cycles from our cells by charging to less than 100%...

Tom


----------



## daberti

SilverFox said:


> Hello Daberti,
> 
> How warm are your cells? If they go from warm to hot, terminate the charge.
> 
> Charging at 0.2 amps does not produce a significant end of charge signal. I would suggest a manual termination (stop charging by taking the cells off the charger), if they get hot, if you run over 16 hours, or if you put more than 4000 mA back in.
> 
> Tom


 
Thermal probe has ben set at 125F, never reached.
Charger has been set to stop after 4000mAh has been given to the battery.
My understanding is that optimal charge is at 1A (maybe two is too much).
But at what mAh rate should I discharge them to read ACTUAL stored capacity?
0.2A 0.5A 1A or just the same C rate meant to be used for charging?

Thanks


----------



## SilverFox

Hello Daberti,

The industry standard for rating the capacity of cells involves a 0.2C discharge. At higher discharge rates you can expect to see lower capacities as some of the capacity is given up as heat.

Tom


----------



## daberti

Update to my test with 2500mAh Energizers with Triton: charge at 1A and Top Off at 200mA looks like being the best, giving me 2600mAh after charge and 2522mAh after discharge (at 200mAh).


----------



## bp044

the c. crane charger manual states after charge is finished AA nimh cells can be left on charge " indefinately ". Any opinions ?Also considering Vanson bc 2hu or waiting till november for lacrosse bc-900. Which of the three would be best to charge eneloop cells or generally superior as an AA charger?


----------



## SilverFox

Hello Bp,

In general, leaving NiMh cells on the charger trickle charging is not recommended. Eventually the cell will undergo a chemical change that will increase the internal resistance and reduce the capacity. The rate that this change takes place varies for the different brands of cells, so it is hard to say how long you can go.

A good practice is to charge your cells, then let them trickle charge over night. The pull them off the charger and set them aside with a note telling you when they were last charged. In 90 days at room temperature they will have lost around half of their charge, so you can charge them back up again.

The CCrane charger is a good charger, but it does not have independent channel charging. It charges cells in pairs.

The BC-900 is a great charger, when it works. We have discovered that one of the components is at its very limit with regards to heat dissipation. When it fails, the charger goes to maximum charge mode with no termination. This results in ruined cells and a melted charger. If you happen to get a good one, it is a great charger. However, I would suggest you use it on a non combustible surface in case it decides to malfunction.

The Titanium BC-2HU is an upgraded version of the Vanson BC-1HU. It features a longer charge time before it shuts down and a higher AA charge rate. It is an independent channel charger and will run off of 12 volts. The lower charge rate may be a problem for new cells and you will have to keep an eye on them and monitor heat. When the cell heats up, take if off the charger. After a few cycles, it should terminate properly.

I guess my favorite of these three would be the BC-900, but be careful.

Tom


----------



## bp044

Silverfox:Thank you once again for your excellent advice.


----------



## bp044

SilverFox said:


> Hello Bp,
> 
> In general, leaving NiMh cells on the charger trickle charging is not recommended. Eventually the cell will undergo a chemical change that will increase the internal resistance and reduce the capacity. The rate that this change takes place varies for the different brands of cells, so it is hard to say how long you can go.
> 
> A good practice is to charge your cells, then let them trickle charge over night. The pull them off the charger and set them aside with a note telling you when they were last charged. In 90 days at room temperature they will have lost around half of their charge, so you can charge them back up again.
> 
> The CCrane charger is a good charger, but it does not have independent channel charging. It charges cells in pairs.
> 
> The BC-900 is a great charger, when it works. We have discovered that one of the components is at its very limit with regards to heat dissipation. When it fails, the charger goes to maximum charge mode with no termination. This results in ruined cells and a melted charger. If you happen to get a good one, it is a great charger. However, I would suggest you use it on a non combustible surface in case it decides to malfunction.
> 
> The Titanium BC-2HU is an upgraded version of the Vanson BC-1HU. It features a longer charge time before it shuts down and a higher AA charge rate. It is an independent channel charger and will run off of 12 volts. The lower charge rate may be a problem for new cells and you will have to keep an eye on them and monitor heat. When the cell heats up, take if off the charger. After a few cycles, it should terminate properly.
> 
> I guess my favorite of these three would be the BC-900, but be careful.
> 
> Tom


 Silverfox :I downloaded the C. crane charger manual. On page 11 it states "charges one to four AAA, AA,C, or D size Nickel Cadium or Nickel Metal Hydride batteries." Do you believe this to be true ?And would it upgrade your previous opinion of this charger ?


----------



## SilverFox

Hello Bp,

I see that... I also see in the frequently asked questions where CCrane states that it charges cells in parallel, but you can charge one cell at a time...

There have been good reports from people using this charger. My main problem is that I don't have one, so my comments are based on the listed specifications. I have never heard of it overheating batteries and the only negative thing I have heard is that the battery holder springs break off after years of use.

Eluminator mentioned that all four bays are connected together, so you are still charging in parallel when you charge more than one cell, but you can balance your cells by charging one at a time. I still think it terminates on temperature and that is the reason it will only charge with the cover closed, but it does top off after the bulk charge.

I still don't like parallel charging and am not sure how they handle parallel discharging, but the CCrane charger seems to be well built and seems to work well.

Tom


----------



## Anders

Hello bp044.

Here in sweden Catella Generics made a test of several chargers back in 2002.
Catella Generics, based in Stockholm, Sweden, is a world-leading consultancy and testing facility in power source and energy storage technologies.

One of the chargers was CC Crane.

In this test the cells where GP 1300 Mah, after 1,33 h the results was undercharged cells 93%, with trickle-charge after that in 1,3 h, the results was overcharged cells.
The trickle charge was 380 Mah which is high and in principle a continued charging.

The temperature was 32,7 C and the current was a little more than 1A.

The charger was not approved by Catella.

Anders


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## bp044

hello Anders The test is now four years old . Maybe the charger has been improved .Have they done a follow up test? If cells were trickle charged for a shorter time perhaps the 93% could have been increased without causing over charging?


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## Anders

Hello bp004.

Yes the test is old, i don't know if CC Crane have a newer charger, the only test i'm aware of is this document i have.
I also own one of this charger.

The first measurement was when the charger where done, it took 1,33h.
Iin this particular test all chargers was trickle charged in 1,3h after that.

This chargers number here in sweden was 4125-1250-2DC, maybe it is another version you have?

Anders


----------



## poushag

Hello folks. By way of introducing myself: I have had much interest in electronics since my days as an aerospace engineering undergrad, through grad school in electrical engineering (specifically electric power conversion), and now years later into my career as a controls/systems engineer. It's been about ten years since my NiCad cells wore out and I just went back to using alkalines (my needs had changed and I wasn't using batteries as much anymore). Now, with 3 kids, the dead batteries are piling up around here. I recently hacked my old cordless drill to replace the NiCads with NiMH and am liking the change quite well. So now I am seriously shopping for NiMH cells and charger for standard sizes (AAA through D and 9V).

I have read this whole thread. Thanks SilverFox for all the work you have done testing these chargers. (Could not find the "I'm not worthy" icon to insert here...) I have to indicate my frustration however at having to search all over the internet to find charging currents for each of these chargers. Without these, the test results tabulated on the first page are not as useful as they could be in deciding which charger to buy. The battery discharge curves and the corresponding table are a good start but all they really indicate is that the chargers at the top of the table most likely maximize capacity while those at the bottom are more likely to maximize cycle count. But it cannot be determined for sure since the charge time for each charger is not included in the table. (And we also know that after being left several hours to trickle charge after the bulk charge has finished, the difference in battery voltage levels produced by these chargers is probably negligible.) What I am looking to see (and probably other comparison shoppers as well) is how fast these chargers operate and what that speed costs (perhaps some quantification of the expected cycle count reduction, efficiency of the charge/discharge cycle, etc). 

So I would like to suggest, very respectfully, some additions to the table on the first page that would be very helpful. For each charger tested, tabulate:
1) the time to "done" indication for each charging test
2) the bulk charging currents for each of the various types of cells (relatively easy to find as published by manufacturers) and 
3) the efficiency of the unit (which may be a little more difficult to come by - might necessitate pulling wires out of the wall somewhere so a meter can be clamped over a single AC line).
4) same charger tests repeated for C and D cells (where applicable)

I know this is asking a lot, but I only do so because the people here obviously care about such things as do I, so please consider this a contructive comment. In order to contribute to this effort, I have done some preliminary checking on charging currents. I see the Accu-Power AP2020 and Vanson BC-1HU are both pretty weak in charging the bigger cells with charging current of 700mA for AA/C/D cells. Ansmann "Energy" chargers are rated to supply 1000mA for C/D cells. While the Maha MH-C808M is listed at 2000mA for AA/C/D. (This charge current for AA might also be "scary" like the other Maha charger was.) These differences are why I wish to see the charging test repeated for the bigger cells, but with charge times included in the table, of course.

I still have not quite made up my mind which charger to buy for recharging AAA/AA/C/D/9 cells. But I am leaning toward the Ansmann line since they seem to give more charge current for bigger cells than some of the cheaper chargers but without getting into the extreme levels of the Maha chargers. The Ansmann also seems to be the only universal, slot-loading unit out there that has smart charging of the 9V cells (compared to the AP2020 and BC-1HU that charge 9v only on timed cycles which appear to be far from optimized).

If I have misstated anything, feel free to correct me. (SilverFox, I know that the 700mA AA charge current for the BC-1HU I posted does not agree with the 500mA you referenced on page 1 of this thread. All I can say is that I dug up figures using a Google search on "bc-1hu charge-current" and posted what I found.)

Now a day later I have reconsidered the Maha MH-C808M (charge currents of 350mA for AAA and 1000mA for AA through D in soft-mode whereas rapid-mode doubles all these values) simply due to the fact that the rapid-mode 2000mA charge current for AA on up is likely to become more useful for C and D cells as time passes and each batch of cells is replaced with higher-capacity cells. The main drawback here is that I'd need to buy the MH-C490F for charging 9V cells. Still not quite decided....


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## TooManyGizmos

Wow ...... yes ... much easier reading ............

Poushag , *Welcome to CPF* ..............

Thats quite a bit of detail in your very first post . Sounds like you are taking your charger buying very seriously. Some (many) of us here are not as concerned with / or interested in charging our batteries quickly. Most prefer the slower method which is more thorough and gives maximum charge. 

Your statements and suggestions are way over my head but SilverFox may choose to address some of them . Just keep in mind - he does all his testing and posting in his free time as a hobby and a service to us. All the equipment and batteries are costly , and he is not on salary with CPF . Hopefully he gets an occasional donation from some members to offset his expenses for chargers, batteries and all his time .

I personally use the MaHa C808M that you mentioned in your last paragraph. I very much like it for the versatility reasons you stated . Maybe other members can reccomend a good 9v secondary unit for you. Very few chargers do-it-all . But maybe SilverFox knows of some that do. Remember - Lithium Ion Rechargeables may be in your future too. 

(poushag , glad to see you got the *PM* I sent to you . *Again - Welcome aboard *.)

................................ TMG/
.


----------



## SilverFox

Hello Poushag,

Welcome to CPF.

It looks like you may have missed the whole point of the testing and may have drawn the wrong conclusions...

This charger testing was designed to determine which charger charged the batteries to the fullest condition when they signaled the charge was over. Just because a charger charges a battery to a more complete charge does not mean that it lends itself to increased, or decreased, cycle life.

You are correct, and I believe I stated this in the first post, that if you leave a cell on the charger overnight, all the chargers will end up with cells at about the same state of charge. Once again, I was checking how well the cells were charged when the een light came on.

I believe most of the specifications of the chargers are available if you dig a little. I left the charge times out because there are a lot of variables that enter into the charge time. In general, you can divide the capacity by the charge current to get a rough estimate of charge time. However, there will be differences in charge time at different temperatures, different capacity cells, and where you are in the cell life. The older cells seem to develop higher internal resistance that tends to lengthen the charge time.


----------



## SilverFox

Post continued...

Charge efficiency is somewhat dependent on charge rate. If you slow charge, you need to charge to 140 - 160% of the capacity of an empty cell. At fast charge rates, you may only need 110%.

You mentioned that you are looking for a fast charger. I would suggest that the Energizer 15 minute charger would fit this requirement. You may loose 25 (or so) total cycles, but you will save a bunch of time. For C and D cells, the Maha C808M will be about as fast as any charger until you get to the hobby chargers like the Schulze and Triton. As you have pointed out, the Ansmann may be a good compromise, and seems to have the edge on charging 9 volt batteries.

The original Vanson BC-1HU charges at 500 mA. There have been some changes in that unit, and the current BC-2HU, or BC-1HU+ charges at 700 mA and has an extended time to shut off. I have also seen this "improved" model listed as the original BC-1HU. At either charge rate, a 12 Ah D cell is going to be on the charger for a long time.


----------



## SilverFox

Post ontinued again...

Choosing a charger is getting more difficult. Cell capacities are raising, and we want close to a 0.5C charge rate to get a strong end of charge signal. At lower charge rates we are bumping in to the safety timer with some chargers. A very attractive AA and AAA charger may not charge C, D, and 9 volt batteries.

AA cells are used more than any other sizes. AAA cells follow, and then way behind are C, D, and 9 volt. It may be worthwhile to get a good AA and AAA charger, and have a separate charger for C, D, and 9 volt batteries.

Tom

I seem to be having problems posting, so decided to break up my reply. This seems to work.


----------



## poushag

Thanks for the responses.

Silverfox, I would be happy to edit your table myself and add the charging currents I have found into it. But this is not a wiki and besides that your table seems to be a gif file. I'm willing to work with you using OOo or whatever to edit your original (pre-gif) table -- if you want to arrange something PM me.

After reading TMG's post and another review of the Maha charger I have decided to get it. The last thing that tilted the scale to the Maha is that the power supply is higher quality than the standard wall-wart adapter. It has two channels, one low current and one high. I know from experience in grad school that power supply design involves a lot of tradeoffs. So I always prefer to go with a higher quality design because the extra cost is worth the investment for better efficiency (which is evident as less Watts are merely wasted as heat). I am also getting the Maha 9V charger which has a better power input that includes a voltage booster from the 12V wall-wart to 15V that can recharge 9.6V cells. (Many 9V chargers max-out on charging the 8.4V variety.)

Now I guess I need to jump over to another thread and try to decide which cells to buy....


----------



## A96Honda

i dont see this charger listed, but how does it sound?

http://www.thomas-distributing.com/maha-mh-c801d-battery-charger.htm

I'm looking for a quick charger, for 8AA Sanyo 2700


----------



## TinderBox (UK)

the AA and AAA version of MAHA 808.

reported to be difficult to remove the AA batteries as the bays are so close together you cannot get you fingers in.

if you have the money buy the 808.

regards.

John.


----------



## poushag

I had decided on the Maha MH-C808M charger (not yet purchased though) but now I'm having second thoughts. I was looking for cells to buy and ended up on the NexCell website (logicbattery.com) where I found they have a charger with what they call "sleep/wake mode" (similar in effect to what I've heard called maintenance charging). Either will allow the battery to be left in the charger indefinitely without harm to the battery since the charge current is either very very low (maintenance level) or is trickle charged once per week for 12 hours (sleep/wake). This is the first charger (50SC) I found to have this feature but it only does AA/AAA cells and can't do 2Amp charging either. It also has an intermediate charging current bewteen the fast and trickle charge levels. So now I'm feeling discouraged since there are so many chargers out there but none seems to combine all the features I like: slot-loading, universal (AA/C/D), 2Amp charging for the C/D cells, maintenance charging.  I wish I could go back to my grad school lab and build my own, but who has time and money to do such things while supporting a wife and 3 kids....

CORRECTION: The documentation for the Maha MH-C808M charger is lame. I looked on all the mahaenergy.com webpages about it and downloaded the spec sheet. Nowhere did it mention that the trickle charge current is actually more like a maintenance current. I found SilverFox's review of this charger to be the only place where the trickle charge current level was stated (as 7mA). I called Maha to confirm and was told that it can be between 5-10mA and is of a pulsing nature. I asked if there was any published data and was told there is not. I also asked about leaving the batteries on the charger and was advised that leaving them on for a week would be no problem but for 2 or 3 months is probably not a good idea. The charger sounds great and I will be ordering one, but it seems like every other charger on the planet has better technical documentation!

PS - SilverFox I found the CPFWiki and I think we should put the charger table there on the Chargers page with a column (or columns) for charge currents for each cell-type. I'm quite willing to help edit the table, but I would prefer for you to post the data table as anyone else would have to transcribe it, whereas you are the only one who has the original table that generated the gif at the beginning of this thread.


----------



## bp044

the nexcell c50sc charger mentioned by POUSLAG sounds perfect.It seems to have all the features one could ask for, i must be overlooking some fault.Could some one wake me up listling the downsides ?


----------



## TooManyGizmos

bp044 said:


> the nexcell c50sc charger mentioned by POUSLAG sounds perfect.It seems to have all the features one could ask for, i must be overlooking some fault.Could some one wake me up listling the downsides ?



......." Quote " of poushag's downside note ..... v

" but it only does AA/AAA cells and can't do 2Amp charging either."

I'd say thats the main drawback .


............................. TMG/
.


----------



## daberti

Should I check for the (residual) attitude of a Ni-Mh battery of keeping charge, what should it be the best discharge rate? C/5 or the plain old C/10 ?

Thanks in advance


----------



## bp044

TooManyGizmos said:


> ......." Quote " of poushag's downside note ..... v
> 
> " but it only does AA/AAA cells and can't do 2Amp charging either."
> 
> I'd say thats the main drawback .
> 
> 
> ............................. TMG/
> .


 In response to my post #378 TooManyGizmos kindly points out the inability of the nexcell c50sc charger to charge only AA/AAA and not do 2Amp charging.If neither of these features is important to me can i get additional comments from some of our experts on the forum please ?


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## TooManyGizmos

bp044 said:


> In response to my post #378 TooManyGizmos kindly points out the inability of the nexcell c50sc charger to charge only AA/AAA and not do 2Amp charging.If neither of these features is important to me can i get additional comments from some of our experts on the forum please ?





I understand ..... bp

I won't reply to any more of your questions .


......................... TMG/:laughing:
.


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## bp044

TooManyGizmos said:


> I understand ..... bp
> 
> I won't reply to any more of your questions .
> 
> 
> ......................... TMG/:laughing:
> .


I did not mean any disrespect towards TooManyGizmos. I was merely seeking additional views on the nexcell charger fom him or any body else with an opinion taking into account my not needing 2amp charge rate or desire to charge any thing other than AAA/AA cells


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## Wolf_Spyder

I am new, so I will try really hard at not asking stupid questions. 

I am very much interested in a charger for R-CR123A's. I have several "el-cheap-o" 6 volt tactical lights. I go through batteries faster than I would like. I am looking for both batteries and a charger. I have read the other posts detailing Light Hound & Powerizer. I was wondering if there is any other R-CR123A's beside these two?

Also, has anyone tried to convert a DeWalt charger (for DeWalt 7 volt - 18 volt XRP Batteries) to recharge other types of batteries?


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## distox

Wow, what an informative thread! I found this forum while searching for information on NiMH batteries. No wonder my batteries never last long, I've been doing everything to kill them. Now I'm looking to buy a new charger/conditioner for AA/AAAs. Anyone had a chance to check out the new "Power Gauge Charger" from Duracell?


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## thekobk

SilverFox did you buy the new maha mh-c9000 charger? Will you be adding this charger to the charger comparison?:huh2:


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## LiteTheWay

How about the Minwa 5798 - have you tried it. Slow but effective and also available from Thomas distributring.


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## SilverFox

Hello 7histoloty,

Send me your unit and I will be glad to check it out.

Tom


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## SilverFox

Update:

I have added data for the Duracell 15 minute charger and the Maha C9000 Wizard One charger, both original and improved versions.

Tom


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## bridaw

:thanks: First, thank you so much for all your time. 
The charger comparison and battery shoot out threads are great.

I was ready to purchase the Maha Powerex MH-C9000 tonight but I noticed thomas distributing lists the LaCrosse BC-900 on their site as a "New Updated Firmware Model". I see your review date for the BC-900 was over a year ago and I don't know how long the updated firmware version has been available. I assume the BC-900 you tested had "old" firmware but wanted to confirm. I wonder what has been improved.

I still think I want the MH-C9000 since it seems to be a better charger and I can power it off 12V with a simple cord. The MH-C9000 costs twice as much as the BC-900 and I do own a DC to AC converter to power the BC-900 off 12V. I wonder if I should go ahead with the MH-C9000 or reconsider the updated BC-900? Hmmm. :thinking:


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## SilverFox

Hello Bridaw,

Decisions, decisions, decisions...  

You are correct. My BC-900 is a V32 unit. The changes with V33 include lowering the maximum battery temperature that triggers a pause in charging, and an increase in the safety timer from 2700 mAh to 3000 mAh. I don't believe these changes will have any effect on the charging of healthy cells.

Tom


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## FlashCrazy

Hi Tom, Thanks for all of the great charger and battery info you've provided on CPF...you've put a ton of time into all of this, thanks for sharing! I bought a Titanium TG2800 based on your comments of it...I love it! 

On the Lacrosse BC-900, how can you tell if a particular one is V32 or V33? Is it printed or stamped on it somewhere? I'm interested in buying one, but want to be able to know which version I'm getting.

Thanks!


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## Turbo DV8

SilverFox said:


> You are correct. My BC-900 is a V32 unit. The changes with V33 include lowering the maximum battery temperature that triggers a pause in charging, and an increase in the safety timer from 2700 mAh to 3000 mAh.


 
Another thing I noticed when I received my two new v.33's is when you put the cells in, it takes a lot longer than my v.32 to blink the display and begin charging. I guess a lot of confused consumers were waiting too long to make up their mind and make a configuration choice, and it was defaulting to 200 mA charge, and the only way to reset it is to unplug it However, now that I am use to the operation, I find the double delay sometimes frustrating!


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## SilverFox

Hello FlashCrazy,

The version is displayed when you plug the unit in.

Tom


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## SilverFox

Hello Turbo DV8,

Thanks for the update. I was not aware of the added delay time.

Tom


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## cy

silver, what a cool old thread! can't believe I've missed it.....


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## paulr

bridaw said:


> I still think I want the MH-C9000 since it seems to be a better charger and I can power it off 12V with a simple cord. The MH-C9000 costs twice as much as the BC-900 and I do own a DC to AC converter to power the BC-900 off 12V.


 For charging in a car I think I'd prefer a 15 minute charger. This is mainly because you generally need the key in the ignition to power the cig lighter socket, and I'd rather not leave it that way unattended for hours at a time. If it's 15 minutes I can sit there til it's done. Charging with the motor turned off is probably not great (but not fatal) for the car battery either: the 12-15 WH to charge 4 AA cells is maybe equal to running the car headlights for 10 minutes or so, which is not something you want to do all the time. If I'm using the car at all it's generally for more than 15 minutes so I can use a 15 minute NiMH charger while the car is running, but I rarely go on multi-hour car trips.


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## hank

Anyone got any info on the charger sold bundled with the Eneloop batteries? I'm guessing it's pretty simple but I haven't found any info on it.


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## oldvultureface

hank said:


> Anyone got any info on the charger sold bundled with the Eneloop batteries? I'm guessing it's pretty simple but I haven't found any info on it.


Both eneloop chargers are reasonably sophisticated. Independent channel charging. Different battery capacities-sizes capability. Slow, but they work well. The four channel charges AA's at 300 mA and AAA's at 150 mA. I don't have the two channel with me-my daughter's using it-but it's a little faster.


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## hank

Thank you!


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## Turbo DV8

oldvultureface said:


> The four channel charges AA's at 300 mA and AAA's at 150 mA. I don't have the two channel with me-my daughter's using it-but it's a little faster.


 
My two channel says AA x 2 @ 550 mA and AAA x 2 @ 380 mA. Roughly twice as fast.


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## Turbo DV8

SilverFox said:


> Hello Turbo DV8,
> 
> Thanks for the update. I was not aware of the added delay time.
> 
> Tom


 

Just today noticed another difference between my v32 and v33. Both manuals state that the maximum charge current of any one bay is limited by the current setting of any previous bay(s). That is, if bay #1 is set for 500 mA, subsequent bays cannot charge above 500 mA. This is the way my v32 works. I have been using my v33's with this in mind, but today I by accident put two cells in bay 3-4 and set the current for 700 mA, and when I checked bay 1-2 I had it set for 500 mA. So it appears that v33 does away with this current limitation. The new manuals included with my v33's were not updated to reflect this.


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## pfwag

Anybody know anything about All-Battery's T6278?

http://www.all-battery.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=1652

Or is this a private labeled clone that has already been tested?

For $40, I'm trying to decide between it and the Maha C401FS. My new Canon S3 is making me get NIMHs and a charger (with a 12V input), and I note the C401FS has better than average comments and performance, but being able to also charge Cs and Ds with the same units has some advantages.

with an assumption that it is better (and cheaper) to have a second set of 2500 mAHr AAs and I am not looking for a perfect battery charger, am I off base?


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## Handlobraesing

Silverfox,
Have you tried the 4AA Sanyo eneloop charger?


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## SilverFox

Hello Handlobraesing,

There seems to be several Eneloop chargers available. I have a couple of them, but have not run a formal test on them. I will see what I can do.

Tom


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## cat

Thank you, SilverFox, and the others who contributed. 
But I can't read through all these 14 pages and reach any conclusions wrt to which charger to buy.  
I think I've gathered that slow charging is better - which is ok with me. Another thing is that I think I'm going to be charging fivemega 9 packs / 12 packs. 
Maha...which one? Titanium...? And what are the best online stores to get them and batteries?


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## SilverFox

Hello Cat,

Welcome to CPF.

I recommend charging in the 0.5C - 1.0C range for charging rates because it is generally recommended by the battery manufacturers for a strong end of charge signal. The other recommended rate is if you start with a fully discharged battery, 0.1C for 14 - 16 hours, based on timer charge termination.

When charging 9 and 12 cell packs, it probably is better to check out some of the hobby chargers. I use the Schulze.

Tom


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## cat

Thanks, Tom.  I've been around - every day - for 2 or 3 weeks, but I've only become a bit confused now that I'm looking at getting something other than Surefire and Fenix that use CR123 batteries. 

I'll do a search to find someone that sells the Schulze. 
Whether I need one of those or a charger for batteries used by Wolf Eyes depends on whether I go for a Mag85 or a Wolf Eyes M300 or Storm.  (Probably both, though, eventually.)


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## Sigman

Well we let this one get a bit long! Let's continue here... and close Part 1.


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