# Anchoring steel to a cinderblock wall?



## Pydpiper (Jan 28, 2010)

I had a vault door made for my gun room, the door is secure but the designer left 6 tabs on the door, 3 each side. I need to know the best anchor to put in these tabs..
I certainly don't know a lot about steel to concrete, I have all the tools I will need, but I don't know what to screw in to the blocks.
Any help will be appreciated!
6 of these need to be secured, holes are about 3/8".
Thanks!


----------



## wingnut86 (Jan 28, 2010)

If you take that picture to your local hardware store or dare I say one of the big box locations like HD or Lowes, they would be able to set you up with the right anchors. 



These anchors work very well, and just require the masonry hammer drill (Hilti) a wrench and hammer. works best in solid concrete though not necessarily block.

These ones also work well, but require the purchase of the setting tool...

The videos supplied on the site are very informational for installation. I wouldn't recommend purchasing these on-line though.

Anchoring near a mortar joint on a block is like anchoring into solid block or concrete as the material is solid right there. Anchoring into the middle of a hollow block will be different. Once again, a helpful associate at your local home building supply store or hardware store can set you up with the appropriate anchoring system. Pictures of all 6 locations would probably be helpful too, if the wall is block.


----------



## saabgoblin (Jan 28, 2010)

Both of those anchors are very nice and I love the first one pictured because they are incredibly strong but I am uncertain of their suitability for Cinder blocks especially if the cavity's in the blocks aren't filled with concrete. The force of those anchors may crack an unfilled block or the expansion sleeve may protrude into the cavity. 

Tapcons are good for general holding but they can be removed quite easily while Lead expansion anchors may do the trick and you could use super strong Locktite on the threads for more permanency. You might want to determine if you wall is solid/filled or hollow by doing a test drill on an obscure area of the wall before buying anything. Is the door already secured in another way and isd this for additional security or are these the main fasteners for your door?


----------



## matrixshaman (Jan 28, 2010)

I'd put in concrete anchor bolts like you use to secure a house bottom plate to the concrete foundation or get the longest and largest diameter you can fit through those holes. But before putting them in I'd get some of the really large tubes of generic liquid nails (brown gunk generally known as construction adhesive and fill the heck out of the holes. If the blocks are hollow it might cost a bit but would be very strong. The large tubes we have around here can be found for around $2.50 each and have about 28 ounces IIRC. It usually takes a couple days to a week or so to fully dry. When dry it is very strong. Chances are the blocks already have concrete poured in them if this was originally part of the house. Best to drill one and find out before your buy your bolts as you'll probably want shorter ones if they have concrete already in there.


----------



## Apollo Cree (Jan 28, 2010)

What's on the other side of the cinderblock wall? Any chance of putting a bolt all the way through the wall with a metal plate on the other side? 

Or make a big hole, put in some sort of metal plate in the hole, bolt to the plate, then fill with concrete? Be sure that the geometry is such that the concrete plug is not going to be easily pulled out. This is one case where having a hollow cinderblock would be a plus. 

Are you doing this from the outside of the vault? How to you intend to keep someone from unscrewing whatever fastener you use?


----------



## Vinniec5 (Jan 28, 2010)

Look for single or double expansion anchors they grip the inside at different points and are made for Block installations


----------



## MarNav1 (Jan 28, 2010)

Are these tabs for anti theft or just to hold the frame down? If for security you'd want to go throgh both sides and weld the nuts down when you are done. If it's to just stabilize the safe I would think most anchors would work. From your pic that hole will be tricky to drill because it's so close to the mortar joint and most concrete bits will walk a little when drilling. Would have been nice to fill the block with concrete too but hard to do that now. You can hammer drill or you can do it by hand your choice. The best cutting drill bits we have found are Rawl bits made in Germany. They cut good and last awhile. Skip the cheap bits, you need a good round hole for the anchor to fit into. Have fun.


----------



## FRANKVZ (Jan 28, 2010)

If those tabs are the only thing holding the door to the block, I'd suggest carriage bolts long enough to go through to the backside of the blocks and steel backer plates with a nut to hold the door securely.
http://www.cnhuaqi.com.cn/pic/200773156909609.jpg


----------



## MarNav1 (Jan 28, 2010)

FRANKVZ said:


> If those tabs are the only thing holding the door to the block, I'd suggest carriage bolts long enough to go through to the backside of the blocks and steel backer plates with a nut to hold the door securely.
> http://www.cnhuaqi.com.cn/pic/200773156909609.jpg


+1


----------



## savumaki (Jan 29, 2010)

What is the purpose of the tabs?

If they are meant to secure the door, you have a big problem as I see it; I have a small right angle grinder that would make short work of cutting thru all six tabs; granted a thief would probably not have one with him but you mention having a lot of tools so perhaps he could choose??

If they do not secure the door then cut them off.

I would see a more secure solution in securing the door mid frame in the block wall.

Cinder blocks have the advantage of being lighter than cement at the expense of strength.


----------



## sunspot (Jan 29, 2010)

Great idea Pydpiper.

Can you share more information on your door, if it won't compromise any security?


----------



## Pydpiper (Jan 29, 2010)

Lots of great ideas, I am liking the one of going through the wall completely and adding a backer plate. Securing the fasteners will likely be done with a spot weld.
The door is the entrance to my office, it is under the master bedroom in my house, all 4 walls are cinder-block, the doorway in to the room was chipped in, no windows.
My tools are kept in a separate building on the property.
The door also has 38 other fastening points, only accessible in the jam once the door is open. The tabs are there to keep things square in relation to the concrete. Once complete I am going over the entire exposed cinder block wall with plate steel, there is only one, the other three are underground, then all that will be hidden behind drywall, the security will be in the confinement, that room exceeds the footprint of the house, so it wouldn't be natural to look for a door there.
I will attach some photos, my "flashlight shelf" is in here too, just inside the door on the right, eye level.
I am not rich and hiding valuable stuff, it's just my stuff and a fun project to look after it.

The door in the paint booth.





Installed and partially open, the door has 3 1" bolts that work off the handle, 3 locking points.





Open





The shelf





Inside





Another angle





Another angle, the door off the middle safe is the basis for the door, just extended.










And the door from the inside.


----------



## MarNav1 (Jan 29, 2010)

Nice "utility" room. Since you have access to both sides that simplifies greatly. Some all thread, backer plates and nuts and a little welding and wala.


----------



## jch79 (Jan 29, 2010)

Mmmm.... hammer drilling......


----------



## Pydpiper (Jan 29, 2010)

The bolts all the way through the wall is a classic example of not seeing the forest through the trees.
Also a classic example of why I trust you guys with my decisions.


----------



## Mike Painter (Jan 29, 2010)

A bit OT but when I lived in a cinderblock I always had a piece of 1/2 inch doweling around. Drill a hole to fit, stick the dowel in and you can screw and hold almost anything with it.


----------



## sunspot (Jan 30, 2010)

I am working on a project with similar lines as yours. The house I bought had a built in Tornado Shelter with block walls. The blocks were filled with concrete and rebar. It has a solid poured ceiling 4” thick topped with a small air register. It came with a steel door and frame. It measures about 8”X8”. I do not care for exposed block in a house so I sheet rocked it with 3/8” material. I attached the drywall using Tapcon screws and construction glue. I used door moldings to hide the fact that the door is now recessed a bit into the wall. I am thinking of adding a wood veneer to the door. 

The beginning





First sheet





Next stage









Finished


----------



## Apollo Cree (Jan 30, 2010)

Pydpiper said:


> Lots of great ideas, I am liking the one of going through the wall completely and adding a backer plate. Securing the fasteners will likely be done with a spot weld.
> The door is the entrance to my office, it is under the master bedroom in my house, all 4 walls are cinder-block, the doorway in to the room was chipped in, no windows.
> My tools are kept in a separate building on the property.
> The door also has 38 other fastening points, only accessible in the jam once the door is open. The tabs are there to keep things square in relation to the concrete. Once complete I am going over the entire exposed cinder block wall with plate steel, there is only one, the other three are underground, then all that will be hidden behind drywall, the security will be in the confinement, that room exceeds the footprint of the house, so it wouldn't be natural to look for a door there.




What about the ceiling of the room? 

Does plate steel really make that much sense over just the cinderblock if they can simply go through the ceiling from above? Yes, they'd have to go through your bedroom, but they're not likely to be able to break through a cinder block wall without attracting your attention anyway.


----------

