# Traffic Ticket on Red Light?



## dudemar (Apr 18, 2008)

Here's the story:

Me and my family live in California. My mom made a right turn on a red light at an intersection, nothing new, very typical in CA. A few days later she receives a photo of herself in the mail, face, plate # and all, along with a hefty ticket ($380 ). She was caught by a traffic camera at the intersection. I went for a drive through the same intersection today, and there were no signs prior to or at the intersection indicating a "Right Turn at Signal Only". The traffic light was not an "arrow", just the typical red, yellow and green light. I did find the lane she was in was a right turn lane, indicated by a big "right turn" arrow painted on the asphalt. However, IMO this does not imply a "Right Turn at Signal Only".

Now here's my question: did she do anything illegal? From what I can tell it looked perfectly fine to turn right, until I looked left and it was a blind intersection. I just don't think it's fair to ticket someone when there were no signs to indicate anyting.

Any opinions from CA LEOs' or anyone knowledgeable with this kind of thing would be much appreciated.

Thanks,

Dudemar


----------



## BB (Apr 18, 2008)

One of the cities just south of San Francisco (at Millbrae BART station), one of the red light cameras has apparently re-adjusted... It (apparently) requires the driver to come to a full stop before the crosswalk (or before the intersection mark), then proceed forward.

If, you slowly enter the crosswalk and stop before entering the intersection (no matter how slow), the camera appears to take two pictures...

For the last few months, the camera has been relatively inactive when I drive through it (maybe once or twice a week). Now, virtually every time I am at the intersection, it is snapping one two three sets of pictures (seems to take one just before the xwalk, and one "in the intersection"--if the person does not come to a dead stop first).

What the exact law is... Don't know. But I suspect that the camera's are probably calibrated to the exact law in most cases...

However, there was the time that a city (Dallas?) was making it up as they went along... The state law prohibited "Red Light" cameras from using the street marking as the point for writing a ticket--and so the city used some other settings for their cameras--which nobody knew and there was no law supporting it...

Or like this, six cities illegally shorten the yellow at Red Light Camera intersections.



> Six cities have been busted recently for having an amber light that lasted less than the minimum timing at an intersection, and millions of dollars in fines have been collected when drivers went through the premature red and got caught on camera. Chattanooga, Tennessee; Dallas, Texas; Springfield, Missouri; Lubbock, Texas; Nashville, Tennessee; and Union City, California all cut the timing on their lights, and while some have paid back the fines, others have not. In Dallas, over $700,000 was collected in a matter of eight months, and in Tennessee the light timing was changed at only a few intersections, which just so happen to be the areas where local law enforcement set up traps.
> 
> While the millions of dollars in fines collected in these six cities is horrible, what's worse is that shorter amber lights mean more accidents and more injuries on the road. Hit the link below to read more information regarding the cities that were caught cheating, and if you get pulled over for blowing a red, make sure to time the light. The problem may not be you after all.



So, in the end, you probably need to know exactly what part of the vehicle code the ticket was written for, and go back to the code itself and see what the exact requirement is and if your Mom violated it...

I too will be interested to see what is the exact law (I got the double flash a couple weeks ago--I guess for stopping in the crosswalk before turning right on red--but it is possible the camera was partially blocked by a truck so they could not get a clear shot of the violation--I hope--& waiting).

-Bill


----------



## Bullzeyebill (Apr 18, 2008)

Have you mom go to court and fight it. Right turns on a red signal llight are ok in CA unless indicated not ok at the intersection.

Bill


----------



## Marduke (Apr 18, 2008)

I would guess that the traffic camera sense that she was running the light instead of just making a right on red. Should be simple enough to get thrown out in traffic court.


----------



## Empath (Apr 18, 2008)

It's "right turn on red *after stop*." The turn is to be treated as if there is a stop sign there, with a complete stop, not as if there is a yield sign.


----------



## dudemar (Apr 18, 2008)

Marduke said:


> I would guess that the traffic camera sense that she was running the light instead of just making a right on red. Should be simple enough to get thrown out in traffic court.



I think you're right. There's just no reason why anybody would get a ticket for a right turn on red. I'm going to look up what law she broke and look into this some more.

Thanks,

Dudemar


----------



## Marduke (Apr 18, 2008)

The ticket should specify the precise law she's being cited for.


----------



## geepondy (Apr 18, 2008)

Why such an expensive ticket? $380 for failing to come to a complete stop before turning right?


----------



## dudemar (Apr 18, 2008)

I agree, a speeding ticket for 80 mph costs about the same! Sounds ridiculous, will definitely look into it when my mom gets home.


----------



## BB (Apr 18, 2008)

California, state and local governments, (and other places too, I am sure) have found that raising fines (and in this case) automating the writing of tickets has dramatically increased revenue...

Just driving in a carpool lane can get you a minimum of $271 (or is it higher now?) fine. Also, with traffic cameras, the fines are split with the companies that operate the cameras.

If you want something to really steam you off here in California--about 1,000,000 public employees have special license plates (actually DMV records) where their names and addresses are hidden and not available to toll/red light cameras. Also, frequently police, when finding the "masked" records, will not issue tickets as professional courtesy...



> It's 1:45 p.m. on a Wednesday in February and a Toyota Camry is driving west on the 91 Express Lanes, for free, for the 470th time.
> The electronic transponder on the dashboard – used to bill tollway users – is inactive. The Camry's owners, airport traffic officer Rudolph Duplessis and his wife, Loretta, have never had a toll road account, officials say.
> 
> They've never received a violation notice in the mail, either. Their car is registered as part of a state program which hides their home address on Department of Motor Vehicles records. The agency that operates the tollway does not have legal access to their address.
> ...


Follow up article here.



> Meanwhile, others expressed surprise at the scope of the protection. The Register found that since the DMV began withholding addresses of police in 1978, lawmakers have expanded the coverage to include everyone from politicians and police dispatchers to meter maids and museum guards. Their family members are shielded, too.



How many state and local government employees are there in California... From 2006 study (PDF), CA has ~486/10,000 state residents. 36,457,549 in 2006--Or, about 1.7 million... You do the rest of the math...

Government by the people--or simply subjects... :green:

-Bill


----------



## Mike Painter (Apr 18, 2008)

geepondy said:


> Why such an expensive ticket? $380 for failing to come to a complete stop before turning right?


Absolutely. I used to drive a taxi for senior citizens and got in teh habit of watching to see if people ran red lights, i.e. enter the intestection after the yellow turned to red. Since usually they cam from behind me and I had time to stop, so did they.
Two or three a week was the norm.
Now I see it almost everytine I drive into town and not stopping on red is *very* common.
You have to draw a line and that line is a complete stop. Anything else leads to long court battles about the speed at which the were going when they almost stopped.

I got back into the habit a few years ago in San Diego. A car came from well behind me and busted a light at about 50 a few seconds after the red. I got about half way through "I see why they have cameras now" when a seond one came through at probably 60.


----------



## JetskiMark (Apr 18, 2008)

The exact same thing happened to a friend of mine. He tried to fight it and they showed him a video. He slowed way down before turning, to about one mph, but did not come to a complete stop. He was guilty.

What intersection was this at? My friend got tagged at De Soto & Roscoe in Canoga Park.

I don't like the cameras, but they are effective. I will hit the brakes on a yellow, even though I know I would make it.

After hearing of my friend's misfortune, I would not want to turn right on a red at a camera intersection.

Big brother is watching you....

Regards,
Mark


----------



## Diesel_Bomber (Apr 19, 2008)

Similar to what Empath said, it's common here for people to stop at a stop light or stop sign after having rolled through the crosswalk, simply because they can't see cross traffic well enough to safely pull out into traffic from behind the crosswalk. The legal and correct way is to come to a complete stop before the crosswalk, then pull forward to where you can see and stop again to wait for a gap in traffic to pull into. A red light camera calibrated for the crosswalk or other painted line would read rolling through to a point where you can see as a car running the red light, regardless of the fact that the car stopped 4 feet later.

Red light cameras recently came to my city. Lots of people complaining. The yellow lights haven't been shortened, so I'm all for them. A red light really does mean STOP, not "only four more cars."

:buddies:


----------



## dudemar (Apr 19, 2008)

Looked it up, turns out it's 21453a, or "Faliure to Stop at Red Light". I did a bit of research, turned up a good amount of info for anyone who's interested:

http://www.highwayrobbery.net/redlightcamscameras.htm#San_Leandro

http://www.highwayrobbery.net/redlightcamslinksref.htm

San Leandro (aka Scam Leandro) is where my mom got the ticket. In the second link, use your "Find" option in your browser to search for "# 27".

IMHO the "Letter of the Law" is anal as it is, yet we have traffic cameras which can't even judge how fast you were going, much less stopped. In the context of my mom's situation (right turns on red) this is just downright ridiculous. $380 for not stopping _exactly_ at the line, completely vile IMO.

Ugh, I'm already sick and tired of researching this, I feel like I waded through mud and muck. I guess I've learned to be more careful at "Photo Enforced" intersections. Thanks so much guys for all your help and input!

Dudemar


----------



## adamlau (Apr 19, 2008)

I was tagged for the very offense via camera last year. Full stop before the crosswalk before proceeding with a right turn. Period .


----------



## GadgetProne (Apr 19, 2008)

dudemar said:


> Looked it up, turns out it's 21453a, or "Faliure to Stop at Red Light". I did a bit of research, turned up a good amount of info for anyone who's interested:
> 
> http://www.highwayrobbery.net/redlightcamscameras.htm#San_Leandro
> 
> ...


 Hey Look for the No left Turn sign between 7-9am

Google Map 14862 Washington Ave (hit street view) Zoom past the truck!!!

Back in 92-93 I made the left turn and Motorcycle Cop stopped me, Hey there was a donut shop...guess he was close to home! I went to Church with an LT of San Leandro PD.....He said not worth fighting, Judge won't Listen!

By the Way The LT I mentioned above Here is His Daughter http://www.misscalifornia.org/archives/results/2002_results.html Nice Family!!


----------



## 270winchester (Apr 19, 2008)

wow, San Leandro must be REALLY desperate for income.

I stop fully at all turns before the first line before proceeding, but turn that into a 380 dollar ticket? 

sigh. San Leandro used to be such a charming city to visit.:shakehead


----------



## Robocop (Apr 19, 2008)

Empath is correct as most states allow right turn on red after a complete stop only. If going by the letter of the law here anything other than a complete stop rather turning right or left on red (left on one way to one way only) it is considered running a red light. So having said that the state could argue probably with success that she did indeed run a red light if a complete stop was not made.

Also saying there were no signs to indicate anything would not be a good defense to use. They will always use the driving test as the states defense here. On most written tests to obtain a license there are various common sense type questions. One common one is to say any right turn at an intersection controlled by a signal should be completed only after a complete stop. If one claims there were no sighns dictating the right turn on red they can always say "well maam did you not pass the written test when you obtained your license"....."this test clearly outlined the procedures for turning right on red and with no signs you know to follow the rules outlined in this test".

It is frustrating I know and clearly silly at times however traffic laws and fines are heavily protected by each state. Be assured the state will be prepared. With cameras I have seen some argue more successfully the workings of the camera rather than any posted signs. With any electronic device there are certain failure rates and as such some have shown mistakes or 'reasonable doubts" as to reliability of traffic monitoring devices.

This worked at first however most states keep detailed records of service and routine testing of cameras to defend this method of protesting a ticket. So as you see you are already at a disadvantage and all you can do is protest the charge and wish for luck.....if nothing else they may lessen the fine or offer some type of classes to prevent her driving record from being tarnished or keep it off your insurance. Good luck to you and if it helps any even as an officer I also feel these cameras are kind of a questionable way of bleeding motorists of their money.


----------



## TorchBoy (Apr 19, 2008)

JetskiMark said:


> After hearing of my friend's misfortune, I would not want to turn right on a red at a camera intersection.


Then you get tooted at, and then ...


----------



## mdocod (Apr 19, 2008)

I seem to recall from the history books that it was an absurdly over enforced traffic violation system that triggered most revolutions in history... Get a bunch of people all in one place who've had a bogus ticket and they start a new country... right?


----------



## gorn (Apr 19, 2008)

270winchester said:


> wow, San Leandro must be REALLY desperate for income.
> 
> I stop fully at all turns before the first line before proceeding, but turn that into a 380 dollar ticket?
> 
> sigh. San Leandro used to be such a charming city to visit.:shakehead



Cities do not determine the fines for criminal violations, the courts in each County do. So all the misguided whining about San Leandro should be directed at the Alameda County judges. 

That doesn't mean though that the Cities don't share in the fine windfall, they do.


----------



## gadget_lover (Apr 19, 2008)

I work with a lot of people who are temporarily here from foreign countries. Many of them have said that driving is much easier here because most everyone obeys the traffic laws. That makes it easy to predict what other drivers will do, so they can handle driving even without much practice.

Several of my co-workers did not drive in their native country because it was too hazardous..

Bringing it back to the original post: If a pedestrian is crossing the sidewalk, they need to know that the cars are going to come to a complete stop. It's during that split second that the pedestrian may clear the driver's blind spot, or that the driver will take the time to look both ways.

By the same token, if you come to a complete stop before looking both ways, your eyes can (in my case) more easily discern movement of approaching traffic. It freezes the background so that anything moving stands out, even the idiots wearing black clothes at night or the one riding his bike across the crosswalk. If you only slow to 1 mph your entire field of vision is moving, so it's more information to sift through.

I don't like traffic cameras, but the truth is that the properly installed and maintained ones only catch people who are not paying attention or who have grown sloppy in their driving habits. It's not a bad thing to remind those folks about the rules once in a while.

Daniel


----------



## dudemar (Apr 19, 2008)

GadgetProne said:


> Hey Look for the No left Turn sign between 7-9am
> 
> Google Map 14862 Washington Ave (hit street view) Zoom past the truck!!!
> 
> Back in 92-93 I made the left turn and Motorcycle Cop stopped me, Hey there was a donut shop...guess he was close to home! I went to Church with an LT of San Leandro PD.....He said not worth fighting, Judge won't Listen!



Geez, that sucks.



GadgetProne said:


> By the Way The LT I mentioned above Here is His Daughter http://www.misscalifornia.org/archives/results/2002_results.html Nice Family!!


Wow! Is she still available? I'm kidding, she's gorgeous though.:thumbsup:



270winchester said:


> wow, San Leandro must be REALLY desperate for income.
> 
> I stop fully at all turns before the first line before proceeding, but turn that into a 380 dollar ticket?
> 
> sigh. San Leandro used to be such a charming city to visit.:shakehead



Exactly, like I said it costs more than a 80 m.p.h. speeding ticket!:shrug::thinking:


----------



## TOOCOOL (Apr 19, 2008)

I think getting a ticket for failing to stop is fair ....however in this case the fine is way to steep.

Just wait until the US has as many cameras per mile as the UK, and its going to happen cause it is a big money maker


----------



## Mike Painter (Apr 19, 2008)

dudemar said:


> Exactly, like I said it costs more than a 80 m.p.h. speeding ticket!:shrug::thinking:



High fines are more effective than low fines in most. I know a guy who gets hit with tickets like that on a regular basis but his income is such that it does not bother him.
 Finland bases traffic fines on your income. "The officer pulled over Mr. Rytsola's car and issued him a speeding ticket for driving 43 miles an hour in a 25-mile-an-hour zone. The fine: $71,400. "

Being broadsided at 25 mph because you pulled out in front of somebody can be just as fatal as an 80 mph accident.

About 1971 I watched a little old lady "obey" the law. She came to a complete stop, then proceeded, but I noticed she didn't look either way. I considered stopping her but was out of my area and we (sheriff's dept) did not work traffic much then.
I turned right, then left and up eight blocks.
She went up eight blocks (with several stops) then right. By the time I got to the intersection the police were there. She had stopped, then went, and was dead, hit by some poor soul who could not stop in time.


----------



## JetskiMark (Apr 19, 2008)

Quote:
Originally Posted by *JetskiMark* 

 
_After hearing of my friend's misfortune, I would not want to turn right on a red at a camera intersection.
_


TorchBoy said:


> Then you get tooted at, and then ...




I don't know how it is in New Zealand, but out here you would probably get shot for doing that!

I have never had to turn right at a camera intersection and I plan on keeping it that way. With my luck, I would do everything correctly and still get a ticket in the mail.

Regards,
Mark


----------



## dudemar (Apr 19, 2008)

combined post below


----------



## dudemar (Apr 19, 2008)

TOOCOOL said:


> I think getting a ticket for failing to stop is fair ....however in this case the fine is way to steep.
> 
> Just wait until the US has as many cameras per mile as the UK, and its going to happen cause it is a big money maker



I think this is the exact reason why they are placed there...



Mike Painter said:


> High fines are more effective than low fines in most.



I kindly disagree:

http://www.highwayrobbery.net/redlightcamslinksref.htm

Search for FAQ # 15 on the page.


----------



## 270winchester (Apr 19, 2008)

gorn said:


> Cities do not determine the fines for criminal violations, the courts in each County do. So all the misguided whining about San Leandro should be directed at the Alameda County judges.
> 
> That doesn't mean though that the Cities don't share in the fine windfall, they do.



they determine the fine, but the city council and the Chief LEO of that city must write recommendation and/or approve installation of said camera. An incorporated city has that right versus an unincorporated area of a county.

for example, in my friend's hometown of San Marcos, the police chief actively recommended AGAINST installing (maybe it was additional) redlight cameras because it was not warranted. And because he refused to sign off on it, no matter how much the San Diego county board of supervisors wanted it, the cameras cannot be installed.


----------



## TorchBoy (Apr 19, 2008)

Mike Painter said:


> About 1971 I watched a little old lady "obey" the law. ... She had stopped, then went, and was dead, hit by some poor soul who could not stop in time.


And so some poor guy has that on his conscience for the rest of his life. 



JetskiMark said:


> I don't know how it is in New Zealand, but out here you would probably get shot for doing that!


Yeah, that's what I was implying. In NZ we don't have handguns, although there is occasionally a bit of road rage, and every so often we read that women (surprisingly) are more likely to be road ragers.


----------



## LaserFreak (Apr 19, 2008)

As a commercial driver, I think there might be a connection.....

What color was the crosswalk? Yellow or White? Was there a sign "No turn on Red"?


----------



## dano (Apr 19, 2008)

dudemar said:


> Here's the story:
> 
> Me and my family live in California. My mom made a right turn on a red light at an intersection, nothing new, very typical in CA. A few days later she receives a photo of herself in the mail, face, plate # and all, along with a hefty ticket ($380 ). She was caught by a traffic camera at the intersection. I went for a drive through the same intersection today, and there were no signs prior to or at the intersection indicating a "Right Turn at Signal Only". The traffic light was not an "arrow", just the typical red, yellow and green light. I did find the lane she was in was a right turn lane, indicated by a big "right turn" arrow painted on the asphalt. However, IMO this does not imply a "Right Turn at Signal Only".
> 
> ...



Just to clarify, you DO have to stop at a red light before making the right turning movement. The red signal light DOES NOT need to be a directional arrow. By not stopping at the limit line while the light was red is a violation of Cali. Vehicle Code 21453(a). Also see 21453(b) as well as 21455.5 et.al. 
http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/calaw.html

The camera photo will have the time between front and rear photos, which can be used to estimate the vehicle's speed.

Regarding "fines" and revenue: Contrary to popular belief, the Municipality that issues a citation gets very little or no revenue from the fine. As an example, I get a mandatory 3 hours of O/T for a traffic court appearance (about $210.00). Then the Court Clerk needs a salary, the Court Reporter and the Court Judge/Commissioner also needs to get paid, in addition to the administrative fees. The State of Cali. also gets a percentage of the fine. That's only if the full fine is assessed. Usually, even if you lose in Court, the Judge may lessen the fine. If you get Traffic School, there (generally) is no fine or it's substantially reduced.

Regarding automated enforcement and DMV Confidentiality: Being a L.E.O. I have confidentiality on my cars. I also have an automated toll transponder for the various Bay Area Bridges. Occasionally, the transponder does not work correctly and I get my photo taken for "toll evasion." Since I have confidentiality, I receive the toll letter at my Department. At least in No. California, there's no free passes with DMV Confidentiality. In fact, I know of a few jurisidictions that will charge their Officers with a camera traffic offense if the go through the intersection while not in Code-3 mode.

I figure the above will go on some deaf ears, being that I'm part of the big conspiracy and such...

-dan


----------



## sed6 (Apr 20, 2008)

Easy solution, move the heck out of the PRK! (Peoples Republic of Kalifornia) Don't you know that place is run by crazy Dems trying to separate you from your civil rights (and money)?


----------



## BB (Apr 20, 2008)

Using Dano's information:


> 21453. (a) _*A driver facing a steady circular red signal alone shall
> stop at a marked limit line, but if none, before entering the
> crosswalk on the near side of the intersection or, if none, then
> before entering the intersection, and shall remain stopped until an
> ...


-Bill


----------



## nerdgineer (Apr 20, 2008)

geepondy said:


> Why such an expensive ticket?...


Welcome to California. Ticket costs here are really high. Handicapped parking violation is about $500. Speeding tickets are typically similar, over $300 depending on jurisdiction. 

When driving unfamiliar routes, I try to keep a lookout for red light cameras. They are usually characterized by prominent flash reflector setups which cue you to notice the cameras. If you see one, then of course make a point to be extra compliant with the laws, i.e. extra slow approach, extra long pause, not stretching a yellow even a little, and so on.

So far, I haven't encountered any stealthed red light cameras yet, but that may come. I keep watching the local ones I know about to see if there are any changes.


----------



## GadgetProne (Apr 20, 2008)

I have become PARANOID because of these lights!


----------



## X_Marine (Apr 20, 2008)

Thanks for all the links and info, very helpful.

I fear I may have fallen victim as well after seeing a flash at a very familiar intersection. I'm hoping since it is very new that it was in a test or learning mode, but I expect I'll get some mail next week. 

I'm thinking I might make a run of bumper stickers or translucent rear window sticker, stating: 
*Sorry,
I don't turn Right on Red
due to CAMERA Tickets!.*​
And might have to check the possibility of mounting a string of IR leds above my plate to possibly blind a camera.. :tinfoil: 

Thanks and gl
X/BillyD..


----------



## TorchBoy (Apr 20, 2008)

X_Marine said:


> And might have to check the possibility of mounting a string of IR leds above my plate to possibly blind a camera.


No possibility. Illegal. And do remember CPF Rule 9:


> You agree, through your use of this BB, that you will not use this BB to post any material which is knowingly illegal or promotes illegal activity.


----------



## 270winchester (Apr 20, 2008)

X_Marine said:


> Thanks for all the links and info, very helpful.
> 
> I fear I may have fallen victim as well after seeing a flash at a very familiar intersection. I'm hoping since it is very new that it was in a test or learning mode, but I expect I'll get some mail next week.
> 
> ...




good idea, I need one of those and put on my car's rear bumper. If you make them I'm in for at least three, preferably in large lettering.


----------



## Trashman (Apr 21, 2008)

I got the same type of ticket last month. In my mind, I thought I stopped quickly, and then proceeded to make the right turn. The photo evidence provided proved nothing and I was prepared to contest it. However, after seeing the video evidence, which I saw online at https://www.viewyourticket.com/TicketViewerCA_LA , I see that I never came to a complete stop. At first, I wasn't able to access the site and then called the police department to arrange an appoint to view the video evidence. The woman that helped me explained that I had to actually type the "https://" and not just "www.....," which enabled me to access the site. The information needed to view the evidence should be somewhere on the ticket, either the front or reverse side.

Fortunately, though, my ticket wasn't $380! It was $159 for the ticket, $39 to allow me to attend traffic school, and $10 for the e-payment fee. Since then, I got a GPS unit as an early birthday present, from my wife, and I downloaded and installed a custom points of interest file containing all of the locations of the red light traffic cameras. Whenever I approach one of these cameras I hear a warning tone and there is a little red dot, on the GPS screen, at the intersection where the camera is located. I know, I shouldn't need the extra help, but I want it. I'm working as a messenger in the greater Los Angeles area and need a clean record to insure that driving will be an available method of making money.


----------



## dudemar (Apr 21, 2008)

Update: My mom asked a cop-friend to look at her ticket, he noticed her brake lights were in fact on at the line; which means she possibly stopped.

It's also possible, however, that the 12 second video shows otherwise... there's only one way to find out. Unfortunately the video can't be seen online in my county, so she has to make an appointment with the PD. I heard there's some arm-twisting after seeing yourself guilty of the offense on video.


----------



## BUZ (Apr 21, 2008)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZUp-Bg0BF-Y :thumbsup:


----------



## Lurker (Apr 21, 2008)

I'm not sure if it is exactly the same case where you live, but here in NC, getting one of those camera tickets carries no points on your license or insurance, the fine is not all that much money and you just pay it by mail. It is not a big deal at all. Even if she was innocent, which is unlikely, and could successfully fight it, which is also unlikely, it would not be worth the time and trouble and expense. Pay the nominal fine and forget about it. That is your best option. If your time has any value at all, you have probably already spent more time value on this problem than the fine. Spending a half day in traffic court is not a great way to spend a half day of your life that you will never get back. Tell her to be extra sure to come to a complete stop exactly at the line before turning right in the future.


----------



## 270winchester (Apr 21, 2008)

that's nice. But in this case it's a 380 dollar ticket. See the first post where the OP said that, not a nominal amount for most people.

I believe these tickets carry point penalty as well in CA, told to me by a clerk at the court house.



Lurker said:


> I'm not sure if it is exactly the same case where you live, but here in NC, getting one of those camera tickets carries no points on your license or insurance, the fine is not all that much money and you just pay it by mail. It is not a big deal at all. Even if she was innocent, which is unlikely, and could successfully fight it, which is also unlikely, it would not be worth the time and trouble and expense. Pay the nominal fine and forget about it. That is your best option. If your time has any value at all, you have probably already spent more time value on this problem than the fine. Spending a half day in traffic court is not a great way to spend a half day of your life that you will never get back. Tell her to be extra sure to come to a complete stop exactly at the line before turning right in the future.


----------



## Trashman (Apr 21, 2008)

Yes, they definitely carry points against our record, here in California. I'll be attending traffic school, which leads me to a good question: Has anybody attended online traffic school? Do you recommend it? How long does it take and how long does one have to complete it. Can you pause and continue at a later hour or day? I'm considering the internet route or a local school called "Pizza 4U Great Comedians," which sounds like they'll be serving pizza and the school will be taught by a comedian. I've done the comedy school thing twice, before. The first time, it was cool, because the guy was an actual performing comedian and he was funny. The second time wasn't as fun and there may have been a non-comedian substitute.


----------



## dudemar (Apr 22, 2008)

Californians do in fact get up to a $400 fine and a point. East coasters get a much smaller fine and no points on their record. Check out my link in post #28.:thumbsup:


----------



## BB (Apr 22, 2008)

Because there was the possibility that anyone could take the online traffic school (instead of the person who got the ticket)--they added some busy work / requirements that made the online schools a bit of a pain and more expensive than one would expect. Also, if the Traffic School confirmation certificate was lost in the mail or other issues--it was harder (or impossible) to get a replacement from an online school...

From what I understand, most people are just taking the one or two day traffic schools and getting it over with.

-Bill


----------



## Trashman (Apr 22, 2008)

BB said:


> Because there was the possibility that anyone could take the online traffic school (instead of the person who got the ticket)--they added some busy work / requirements that made the online schools a bit of a pain and more expensive than one would expect. Also, if the Traffic School confirmation certificate was lost in the mail or other issues--it was harder (or impossible) to get a replacement from an online school...
> 
> From what I understand, most people are just taking the one or two day traffic schools and getting it over with.
> 
> -Bill



Good to know. I guess, I'll be eating pizza and listening to a funny man/woman! About the confirmation certificates, though, I know that they now get mail directly to the courts from the online Traffic School.


----------



## gadget_lover (Apr 22, 2008)

Don't count on having a great time. The "comedy" school I once attended was no more fun than the conventional one. I preferred the one without the comedian.

Daniel


----------



## Trashman (Apr 23, 2008)

gadget_lover said:


> Don't count on having a great time. The "comedy" school I once attended was no more fun than the conventional one. I preferred the one without the comedian.
> 
> Daniel



I know. Like I said, the first comedy school I attended was great. The guy was very funny, and looking back (it was probably more than 15 years ago), he had a comedy style very much like Adam Carolla's. I actually enjoyed that one. The second one was just like all the rest and I don't think the teacher was a practicing comedian. Hopefully, now that I'm living closer to Los Angeles, I'll get a real comedian. At any rate, being served pizza will at least give me something to look forward to.


----------

