# How to light up huge, dark spaces like theaters, caves, or tunnels the right way??



## waxycap

So I don't have the money to purchase equipment that illuminates gigantic spaces (like a pitch-black theater, cave, or tunnel, for example),
BUT I am hoping to gather advice from veterans on what a noob should do, considering that renting equipment for a day or two for such purposes MIGHT (affordably) be an option.

Obviously, I have no clue what the hell I am talking about.

Big venues reqire BIG lighting rigs.. right???

Just in case I find some sort of location is worth shooting in the context of ZERO LIGHT, well, _at least_ I'll learn something about lighting equipment by renting it, i.e., and I'll know that someday I might rather rather purchase. ok, bye.


My very rough draft questions are: 

1) What type of light am I supposed to use for the best brightness (flood is important), but especially best CRI/ color accuracy? Halogen? 
2) What would be the most efficient plan for a power source? What if circumstances dictate I can only use DC (battery powered) light? And what AC options are considerable?
3) What articles are out there for noobs like me... Can you can link me to them on this subject? I don't even know how to research this!


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## Norm

Moved from Questions/Problems/Suggestions This forum is for general *forum issues* only. - Norm


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## waxycap

Norm said:


> Moved from Questions/Problems/Suggestions This forum is for general *forum issues* only. - Norm



Thanks Norm, can you tell me where you moved it to? I tried a search and I can't seem to find it anywhere.. deleted by accident, perhaps?


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## waxycap

ahhh, nevermind. i don't think the question will ever get seen here, but whatever.


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## Forager

If you want battery powered then go LED. There are LEDs with >90CRI.
Cheapest power source is lead acid, like car batteries. 
Although I'm more into DIY myself, First thought of an existing product is the Pelican 9470 Remote Area Lighting System. Not sure if these have the CRI though.


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## jamesmtl514

I think the trouble lays in the question. 
Here's one for you...what do you want to light up such a large area for, how bright, for how long?


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## mmakay

If you need lots of light at high CRI, you want *plasma*! Check out Luxim as one example.


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## waxycap

. (can't delete)


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## waxycap

jamesmtl514 said:


> I think the trouble lays in the question.
> Here's one for you...what do you want to light up such a large area for, how bright, for how long?



Large spaces like large theaters, tunnels, and other interiors with absolutely no interior lighting.


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## waxycap

mmakay said:


> If you need lots of light at high CRI, you want *plasma*! Check out Luxim as one example.



thanks!
I just began comparing high CRI leds and HIDs, but I will look at plasma, I guess (sounds expensive) 
I could use a reference to the color rendering capabilities of HID... but realistically, I am not looking for anything that you must plug in. 

It has to be battery powered


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## jamesmtl514

waxycap said:


> Large spaces like large theaters, tunnels, and other interiors with absolutely no interior lighting.



That didn't answer my question...


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## mcnair55

A decent cordless builders lamp will do what you want,you can angle them and lock to any direction,will recharge off mains and via 12v socket in a vehicle.


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## waxycap

jamesmtl514 said:


> That didn't answer my question...



I meant to say "for photography". sorry about that.


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## waxycap

mcnair55 said:


> A decent cordless builders lamp will do what you want,you can angle them and lock to any direction,will recharge off mains and via 12v socket in a vehicle.



This advice will definitely bring me somewhere. In fact, I believe that recharging off of a car battery is probably the only way to go. 
The problem is that I am ignorant. Are you referring to HID? Is there such thing as rechargeable HID? Which is the best? 
Which HIDs have the best flood and high CRI index? (good color accuracy, like you would see in sunlight)


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## idleprocess

waxycap said:


> So I don't have the money to purchase equipment that illuminates gigantic spaces (like a pitch-black theater, cave, or tunnel, for example)
> [...]
> Big venues reqire BIG lighting rigs.. right???





waxycap said:


> Large spaces like large theaters, tunnels, and other interiors with absolutely no interior lighting.





waxycap said:


> It has to be battery powered





waxycap said:


> I meant to say "for photography". sorry about that.



I'm going to take a shot in the dark and assume you're doing this for Urbex purposes, in which case mass and volume are likely to be at a premium. While I've only read about the exploits of others in this area, I gather that long-exposure multi-flash photographs work fairly well so long as the camera is on a tripod and one is deliberate in the staging of the shot. Some flavor of light-painting the scene might also work, although I have no idea what that would do should one not illuminate areas relatively evenly.


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## Frank W

Photography? Stills? Non-moving objects? Well, in keeping with the time-honoured KISS principle, why don't just use a FLASH? 
Lot of light in small 4AA package  You can just do a Bulb exposure with multiple pops at full power (or preferably a multi-exposure synched to the flash so you don't pick up the ambient light). You can reposition even a single flash multiple times, use filters, diffusers, whatever. 

Colour accuracy? Perfect 5500K sunlight...


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## waxycap

Frank W said:


> Photography? Stills? Non-moving objects? Well, in keeping with the time-honoured KISS principle, why don't just use a FLASH?
> Lot of light in small 4AA package  You can just do a Bulb exposure with multiple pops at full power (or preferably a multi-exposure synched to the flash so you don't pick up the ambient light). You can reposition even a single flash multiple times, use filters, diffusers, whatever.
> 
> Colour accuracy? Perfect 5500K sunlight...



99% stills, but bulb exposure will create too much noise and post processing work. Additionally, I am trying to learn about, and invest in lighting equipment.

Some situations are "urbex" but many others are not (but also completely dark)
I don't ever use flash because I don't like it. 
I would probably be more inclined to use flash if I was a studio portrait photographer, and had all the equipment for it, but I am not a studio photographer and don't have the expensive equipment, either.

I was not smart to exclude the fact that very dark settings will inevitably demand a lot of long exposures at a low ISO (this is obvious)

But, the purpose of my post is opposite of that... In other words, I am not trying to figure out how to take photographs in darkness, I am merely trying to figure out the lighting situation in pitch black spaces. For example, if I am going to spend a few hundred dollars, should I invest in a high CRI led flashlight and try light painting the whole scene fusing several long exposures in post processing? Or should I find some way of floodlighting the whole place by toting in a HID that recharges via a car's battery? I like the idea of HID floodlighting, but know absolutely nothing about it.


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## waxycap

idleprocess said:


> I'm going to take a shot in the dark



I see what you did there


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## idleprocess

waxycap said:


> 99% stills, but bulb exposure will create too much noise and post processing work. Additionally, I am trying to learn about, and invest in lighting equipment.
> 
> Some situations are "urbex" but many others are not (but also completely dark)
> I don't ever use flash because I don't like it.
> I would probably be more inclined to use flash if I was a studio portrait photographer, and had all the equipment for it, but I am not a studio photographer and don't have the expensive equipment, either.
> 
> I was not smart to exclude the fact that very dark settings will inevitably demand a lot of long exposures at a low ISO (this is obvious)
> 
> But, the purpose of my post is opposite of that... In other words, I am not trying to figure out how to take photographs in darkness, I am merely trying to figure out the lighting situation in pitch black spaces. For example, if I am going to spend a few hundred dollars, should I invest in a high CRI led flashlight and try light painting the whole scene fusing several long exposures in post processing? Or should I find some way of floodlighting the whole place by toting in a HID that recharges via a car's battery? I like the idea of HID floodlighting, but know absolutely nothing about it.



I mentioned "light painting" because with a stationary subject and a long exposure it has produced some interesting results ala RIT's annual Big Shot, which has the challenge of outdoor subjects. Indoors with near-total darkness and a rock-solid tripod, it seems like you will have far fewer variables - thus a much smaller, less powerful lights source could get a lot done. A HID spotlight or even a more diffuse light such as LED or even incandescent could get the job done with minimal bulk ... and also be useful getting in and out.

If you would rather light the scene all at once for a more traditional short-exposure photograph, then you'll probably need a number of portable lights and some major battery power to run it all. I suspect that battery-powered jobsite lights will be where that's at - expect to pay for these in term of cost for LED and/or bulk for metal-halide; light quality will not be particularly great on these, but they will offer the cheapest lumens per dollar. If you're looking for better light quality, you can investigate some battery-powered stage and video lighting; however these being specialty items will command a price premium and likely require more careful handling.


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## waxycap

idleprocess said:


> I mentioned "light painting" because with a stationary subject and a long exposure it has produced some interesting results ala RIT's annual Big Shot, which has the challenge of outdoor subjects. Indoors with near-total darkness and a rock-solid tripod, it seems like you will have far fewer variables - thus a much smaller, less powerful lights source could get a lot done. A HID spotlight or even a more diffuse light such as LED or even incandescent could get the job done with minimal bulk ... and also be useful getting in and out.
> 
> If you would rather light the scene all at once for a more traditional short-exposure photograph, then you'll probably need a number of portable lights and some major battery power to run it all. I suspect that battery-powered jobsite lights will be where that's at - expect to pay for these in term of cost for LED and/or bulk for metal-halide; light quality will not be particularly great on these, but they will offer the cheapest lumens per dollar. If you're looking for better light quality, you can investigate some battery-powered stage and video lighting; however these being specialty items will command a price premium and likely require more careful handling.




I dig your input, man... very informative. I am wondering more and more about HID lighting, though... not LED or incan. 
Is there even such thing as high-CRI HDI lighting? Or high lumen Incan flood lighting without plugging in to wall outlet (rechargeable)?
I am under the impression that this kind of equipment is "Top of the Line" stuff and therefore only reserved for Hollywood movie sets.


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## mcnair55

idleprocess said:


> I'm going to take a shot in the dark and assume you're doing this for Urbex purposes, in which case mass and volume are likely to be at a premium. While I've only read about the exploits of others in this area, I gather that long-exposure multi-flash photographs work fairly well so long as the camera is on a tripod and one is deliberate in the staging of the shot. Some flavor of light-painting the scene might also work, although I have no idea what that would do should one not illuminate areas relatively evenly.



For Urbex purposes carrying lots of kit is a real no no,remember when you are in empty buildings generally you are somewhere where you should not be and you need to be light on your feet.


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## waxycap

mcnair55 said:


> For Urbex purposes carrying lots of kit is a real no no,remember when you are in empty buildings generally you are somewhere where you should not be and you need to be light on your feet.



Uhhh... That's great, man. What does any of that have to do with my questions? These are serious questions, man.


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## idleprocess

waxycap said:


> I dig your input, man... very informative. I am wondering more and more about HID lighting, though... not LED or incan.
> Is there even such thing as high-CRI HDI lighting? Or high lumen Incan flood lighting without plugging in to wall outlet (rechargeable)?
> I am under the impression that this kind of equipment is "Top of the Line" stuff and therefore only reserved for Hollywood movie sets.



Eh, I recall reading that the metal halide _(What HID is referred to outside of automotive/handheld spotlight applications)_ bulbs they use for pro sports stadiums are higher CRI (a requirement for their TV contracts), but those bulbs are likely hard to source and may not be amenable to reasonably portable battery sources. As for the actual CRI, I'm seeing 100W bulbs as high as 85, with 65 being more typical in the ~200W range.

Everyone keeps harping on LED because it's so much more amenable to portable use. System efficiency is easily double that of metal halide with the resulting lighter power supplies. The components are solid-state DC so they're compact, lightweight, and pretty rugged. CRI can meet that of metal halide. Variable output is trivial. It's not terribly difficult nor overly expensive to homebrew a lighting setup with LED that will do what you want.

Are you going to be lugging your gear around, or can you unload from a vehicle? If the former, then you'll likely appreciate how compact/lightweight/rugged/efficient that LED will be. If the latter, then the greater bulk of HID may be worth it to you.


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## waxycap

idleprocess said:


> Eh, I recall reading that the metal halide _(What HID is referred to outside of automotive/handheld spotlight applications)_ bulbs they use for pro sports stadiums are higher CRI (a requirement for their TV contracts), but those bulbs are likely hard to source and may not be amenable to reasonably portable battery sources. As for the actual CRI, I'm seeing 100W bulbs as high as 85, with 65 being more typical in the ~200W range.
> 
> Everyone keeps harping on LED because it's so much more amenable to portable use. System efficiency is easily double that of metal halide with the resulting lighter power supplies. The components are solid-state DC so they're compact, lightweight, and pretty rugged. CRI can meet that of metal halide. Variable output is trivial. It's not terribly difficult nor overly expensive to homebrew a lighting setup with LED that will do what you want.
> 
> Are you going to be lugging your gear around, or can you unload from a vehicle? If the former, then you'll likely appreciate how compact/lightweight/rugged/efficient that LED will be. If the latter, then the greater bulk of HID may be worth it to you.



99% of the time I would not be able to connect any equipment being used in real time to a vehicle battery.
I might be able to return to a vehicle to recharge something for a while, off that battery, but that's as far as I will ever get. 

Knee jerk reacting to what is your (obviously) educated reply, I say "Thank you" and........

I only understood about 70% of your answer, but I agree that LED light is kinda overrated. 

I have no clue what you meant by 'variable output', (as it may or may not apply to my non-LED situation) but I'll look into it. 

Anyhow, I have a couple of hundred bucks to spend and this is my chief reason for considering interior lighting options for both carry-around and stationary lighting, so that I may bring in light to a safe location without fear of long exposure noise problems. 

I'd like to invest in both or all three options simultaneously, whether that be High CRI LED, HID, or incan. 

Summary is that I need to have ENOUGH light to make a decent photograph, but I also want to get to PLAY with these multiple light sources when I shoot!


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## ChinoLED

Harbour Freight sell dual 1000 watt halogen lights for $35


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## Norm

waxycap said:


> ahhh, nevermind. i don't think the question will ever get seen here, but whatever.


You were saying?

Norm


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## Ken_McE

waxycap said:


> Is there even such thing as high-CRI HDI lighting?



Look into Metal Halide or Ceramic Metal Halide for the best CRI.





> Or high lumen Incan flood lighting without plugging in to wall outlet (rechargeable)?



Use Xenon or Halogen car headlights and a 12 volt deep cycle battery.





> I am under the impression that this kind of equipment is "Top of the Line" stuff and therefore only reserved for Hollywood movie sets.



You don't need the most expensive equipment in the world. You just need equipment that meets your needs and does the job. Can you carry/wheel in a car battery?


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## idleprocess

Appears I never responded to this - here's hoping the OP is still around 9+ months later.

Not mentioned was the potential for florescent, but that's likely going to be a bulky option with limited ability to control the light.



waxycap said:


> 99% of the time I would not be able to connect any equipment being used in real time to a vehicle battery.
> I might be able to return to a vehicle to recharge something for a while, off that battery, but that's as far as I will ever get.


As Ken_McE else has also inquired - _can you lug around a car battery?_ This is important because if you can, then there are many options for you depending on how much you can feasibly carry. If not, then your options are more limited since incan and arc lamps (HID, metal halide) require a lot of watts that smaller devices will have difficulty delivering for any length of time; a battery also allows for more flexibility since most small-ish, portable, self-powered devices that put out a lot of light will for your purpose effectively be tightly-focused spotlights.

Note that the term "car battery" is generic; a large gel-cell or deep-cycle battery might better suit your purposes if it's going to be regularly depleted to near-0% charge.



> I only understood about 70% of your answer, but I agree that LED light is kinda overrated.


LED buys you options when it comes to runtime and/or light output for a given volume/weight that the other options do not. It's roughly double the efficiency of arc lamps and perhaps 4 times as efficient as halogen. It also scales in output far more gracefully since it can generate light from near-zero input power to its rated limit, while the other options simply do not dim anywhere near as well. Lastly, if you simply can't lug a car battery, it can still offer you thousands of room-filling lumens of light from small independent sources for a few tens of minutes.



> I have no clue what you meant by 'variable output', (as it may or may not apply to my non-LED situation) but I'll look into it.


Say you have a 50W fixture, but that's either too much light for your situation or you need it to run for longer than it would drawing 50W and can live with the reduced output. With variable output you could run it for ~2x as long supplying 25W or ~5 times as long supplying 10W. LED is very capable of doing this with still relatively simple driving electronics; the other options not so much so without compromises in terms of performance or cost.



> Summary is that I need to have ENOUGH light to make a decent photograph, but I also want to get to PLAY with these multiple light sources when I shoot!


I'm not sure your _couple of hundred bucks_ budget will grant you a great deal of leeway. Almost anything you buy ready-built putting out the kind of lumens you need to light large spaces will tend to be either ferociously expensive (ala anything "photographic") or require mains power and hell of a lot of watts (ala anything "jobsite"). LED lends itself to homebrew fixtures since it's DC-powered, generally low voltage, does not have the special handling requirements of HID, nor does it radiate so much heat as the other options. You might be able to hack some of the super-cheap architectural LED fixtures out there to take DC input so long as ">80 CRI", "super tight optical control", and "meets something close to its rated lifespan" aren't must-haves.


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## Anders Hoveland

For temporary use that just requires huge amounts of light, typically halogen is used, because it is the cheapest.

But if you know where to look, there are some really cheap (comparatively) high power LED bay lighting lamps that can be found.


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## Ken_McE

OK, my custom home made light fixture just for Waxycap: 

Start off with an aluminum sheet. A cookie tray will do. Do a search for "clamp light aluminum reflector". They are a cheap light sold in hardware stores. You just want the reflectors. Buy four, six, however many will fit neatly on your cookie tray. For discussion, let's assume four. Come up with a mounting so they can fasten (narrow end down) on the tray. Mark the centers of the spots they will occupy. Buy four headlight bulb holders. Mount them so they will hold a bulb inside each of the reflectors. Add light angle aluminum to serve as handles and mechanical support. 

You now have a flat metal sheet with four car headlight bulbs, each with a big reflector, mounted on it. arrange it so it can mate with a music stand or something so you can choose how you position it. Aim that bad boy at your target and fire away. You will get a hemisphere of light. Sylvania Silverstar bulbs are short life but extra bright. The short life won't matter for your work. You now have the equivalent of one automobiles worth of lighting ready to carry in your hand. Remember what idleprocess says about choosing batteries. You might design all your components so the lead cords just plug in and out, RCA jacks or something. No fiddling with %$#!! wires in the dark.

Go take some pictures. If you like the quality of the light, go buy some more cookie sheets....


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