# New Lumens Factory M6 Lamp!!!!!!!



## senna94 (Jul 20, 2007)

I just thought this news was to good to be buried inside another thread. Kudos to Mark and LF!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!




#11 
Today, 07:10 AM

[email protected] 


Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 225
Re: M4 with 3 x 18650's???
Hi, everybody,

Your calls have been answered again.

We have designed brand new HO-M6R for M6 that is using 2 x 3 RCR123A 3.7V recharageable batteries. This lamp assembly can be used in M4 with 3 x 17500's or 3 x 17670's with extender also. The lamp specification is as follows:
13V
Designed voltage: 10.8V
Current: 2.1A
Brightness: 700 bulb lumens
Color temperature: 3350 K
Average Life: 30 Hours. (yes, it is 30 Hours.)

This lamp is not the same as EO-13, and is a brand new design with different filament.

Mark


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## LED61 (Jul 20, 2007)

WOW!! can't wait to see it happen, it's exactly what I had hoped for.


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## knightrider (Jul 20, 2007)

I can't believe this! What great news. No battery packs or extenders needed! Rechargeable M6 made easy!


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## Paul_in_Maryland (Jul 20, 2007)

2.1 amps? That takes it to 3C, beyond the reach of protected cells. I sure wouldn't want to hold six unprotected cells running at 3C.


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## [email protected] (Jul 20, 2007)

Paul,

We tested the lamp with protected cells and it is designed for protected cells. 
We do not recommend our customers to use unprotected cells as it is very dangerous.

Mark


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## Owen (Jul 20, 2007)

Paul_in_Maryland said:


> 2.1 amps? That takes it to 3C, beyond the reach of protected cells.


Divide it by 2. 1.05A per set of cells. 1.5C for 700mAh cells.


btw guys, I know they're unprotected, but Lighthound has MP R123s on sale for $1.99/ea.


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## Manzerick (Jul 20, 2007)

Hey Mark,

Would 3 x 18650's work with this bulb? The host would be an M4.

thank you,



[email protected] said:


> Paul,
> 
> We tested the lamp with protected cells and it is designed for protected cells.
> We do not recommend our customers to use unprotected cells as it is very dangerous.
> ...


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## SunStar (Jul 20, 2007)

[email protected] said:


> Paul,
> 
> We tested the lamp with protected cells and it is designed for protected cells.
> We do not recommend our customers to use unprotected cells as it is very dangerous.
> ...



Hi Mark - 

real interested in this lamp and left a question or two in the original post....

mainly wondering if the actual output of this lamp has been compared directly to the MN20 and MN21?? Is it somewhere in between - maybe similar to the MN61 or pretty close to actual MN21 output? Also any estimates on run time from (6) 3.7V protected Li ions?

Thanks for developing this option for us!


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## LED61 (Jul 20, 2007)

Even if they are AW's or any other protected R123's, keep your cells balanced guys. AW has charged the cells in the MB20 with the Triton, but still, once in a while, it is a good idea to check the ending voltage after charge on each of the cells, and before charge as well. They should all be pretty close.


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## BSBG (Jul 20, 2007)

Anther M6 option - sweet :thumbsup:


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## jumpstat (Jul 21, 2007)

Always wanted an M6, and [email protected] has given the perfect excuse of getting one. Got to get a few more Ultrafire-139 chargers also...he..he..


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## [email protected] (Jul 21, 2007)

Manzerick,

Yes, you can use 3 x 18650's in a M4 with extender.

Sunstar,

The approximate runtime using different rechargeable batteries would be as follows:
M4: 3 x 17500's about 25 mins.
M4: 3 x 17670's about 35 mins.
M4: 3 x 18650's about 50 mins.
M6: (2 x 3) 6 RCR123A about 35 mins. (AW protected 3.7V 750mAh RCR123A)

The brightness should be about MN61, but the MN61 is 2.85A on 4 x CR123A for about 20 mins, it is not as bright as MN21 which is 4.9A on 2 sets of 3 x CR123A. The lamp is designed for the usage of 3 x 3.7V rechargeable batteries (17500 at least, but 17670 better) for M4, and 2 sets of 3 x 3.7V RCR123A rechargeable batteries for M6. 

Mark


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## mdocod (Jul 21, 2007)

Mark, I'm really excited to see that you went ahead and did it!!! Great job! I'll add it to the charts as soon as possible....

I'm not aware of a definitive way of getting 3 17500s into an M4... but with a 1 cell extender it might be doable, maybe with a spacer or spring stretch.... unless someone is making 1/2 cell extenders I am not aware of?

The 3x17670 will work with 2x 1 cell extenders on an M4, or 3x 1 cell extenders on an M3T.

To use 18mm cells, boring the M3t or M4 (and extenders) or buying leefbodies will be necessary. 

IMO, the best places for these lamps will be in M6s with 6xRCR123s and 3x18650 leefbodies with M heads.

For those who just want the all important answer "how bright." I'll try to break it down to the best of my ability... use these numbers to compare within this comparison only. So if you own one of these flashlights, you can assign this "value" to what you have, to get a better idea of what you get when you switch to a lithium-ion setup with a LF lamp...


An M6 with HOLA on lithium primary cells, Will ramp from around 650 torch lumens down to around 550 torch lumens, in about 15-25 minutes. (depending on cell quality)

An M6 with LOLA on lithium primary cells, will ramp from around 350 torch lumens, down to around 275 torch lumens, in about 50-70 minutes. (depending on cell quality)

An M4 with HOLA on lithium primary cells, will ramp from around 425 torch lumens, down to around 350 torch lumens, in about 15-25 minutes. (depending on cell quality)

An M4 with LOLA on lithium primary cells, will ramp from around 275 torch lumens, down to around 225 torch lumens, in about 40-60 minutes (depending on cell quality)

Now... for comparison with the above statements, I Figure the following.

An M6 loaded with RCR123s and a HO-M6R, will ramp from around 500 torch lumens down to around 300 lumens before you should recharge. Runtime will be anywhere from 25 minutes to 35 minutes depending on the cell quality. 

An "M4" style setup with 3x17500s, 3x18500, 3x17670, or 3x18650, will all have a pretty similar ballpark behavior as far as beginning and ending brightness with an HO-M6R. the difference is actually more noteworthy from brand to brand than from size to size... Pila cells seem to really hold the highest voltage under a load, and will deliver the best performance.. larger sizes will of course deliver more runtime, with 17500s delivering about 30 minutes, and 18650s delivering about 60 minutes. Brightness will ramp from around 550 torch lumens down to around 350 torch lumens over the course of the run.

In conclusion, the HO-M6R is positioned very appropriately. I can say with confidence that the 2.1A draw is IDEAL for maximum power while maintaining safe operation in an M6 loaded with RCR123s. It's a perfect balance point. Most cells on the market right now are delivering about 500-550mAH at ~1A (will be 1.05A per cell in this configuration)... so we're right at ~2C on this lamp, which is safe for continuous operation. This was really an ideal and respectable design decision. Mark, you ROCK!


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## Telkin (Jul 22, 2007)

This is just what I've been waiting for! When will this be available for purchase? I have a spare MB20 Ready for this setup.


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## DaFABRICATA (Jul 22, 2007)

Can the HO-M3T 380 Lumen bulb work fine in the M6?
Will I just get improved runtime?
Is it safe, or will it shorten the bulb life?


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## [email protected] (Jul 22, 2007)

DaFABRICATA,

Yes, you can use the HO-M3T in M6 using 6 x CR123A.

It is safe, the runtime would be about 80 minutes.

But please note that you cannot use rechargeable batteries RCR123A in M6 if you use HO-M3T as the HO-M3T is designed for 3 x CR123A (M3T) or 2 sets of 3 x CR123A (M6) or 2 x 3.7V 17500 rechargeable batteries (M3T).

Mark


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## BSBG (Jul 22, 2007)

[email protected] said:


> DaFABRICATA,
> 
> Yes, you can use the HO-M3T in M6 using 6 x CR123A.
> 
> ...



I picked up an HO-M#T from Lighthound last week. It works fine in the M6 - brightness seems to be between an MN15 X-LOLA and the MN20, with a nice round hotspot, quite white.

Only 80 minutes runtime? That's a little shorter than I was hoping for, but still good.


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## gromit (Jul 23, 2007)

I cannot find the HO-M6R lamp on Lighthound or Lumens factory site. Do you have a link? Or is it under a different SKU number?


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## tussery (Jul 23, 2007)

The lamp was only announced it is not for sale yet.


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## DaFABRICATA (Jul 23, 2007)

[email protected] said:


> DaFABRICATA,
> Yes, you can use the HO-M3T in M6 using 6 x CR123A.
> It is safe, the runtime would be about 80 minutes.(M3T).
> Mark


 

Thank you! I now can use my poor-mans M6!


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## CLHC (Jul 24, 2007)

Can't wait to for this one to come out!


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## leukos (Jul 24, 2007)

Thanks for these great products, Mark! :thumbsup: I'm looking forward to the A2 lamps as well!


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## cue003 (Jul 24, 2007)

Interesting. this is for the Surefire M6 right? Just trying to get the numbers correct to go with the right manufacture.

Curtis


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## Manzerick (Jul 24, 2007)

Any ideas on when this will be available?


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## mdocod (Jul 24, 2007)

cue003-
yes this bulb is for the SureFire M6 flashlight, BUT, it is designed to be used with rechargeable 3.7V cells loaded into the M6, rather than standard primary 3.0V cells... It can also be used in configurations that support SureFire M-turbo lamp assemblies, and use 3 li-ion cells in series that are ~1AH or greater in capacity. 


I have added it to the "chart" (link in signature)...... but I need some help figuring out what other methods might be doable with this lamp...

Mark- you were saying 3 17500s in an M4.... does this fit without modification? or a 1 cell extender with spacer? can anyone confirm a few ways to get 3 50mm cells into a SF body? hehe...


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## Manzerick (Jul 24, 2007)

I needed 2 x A19's to fit in 3 600s's

Don't know if that helps but, I do know I now need to bore it or get a LB for it 



mdocod said:


> cue003-
> yes this bulb is for the SureFire M6 flashlight, BUT, it is designed to be used with rechargeable 3.7V cells loaded into the M6, rather than standard primary 3.0V cells... It can also be used in configurations that support SureFire M-turbo lamp assemblies, and use 3 li-ion cells in series that are ~1AH or greater in capacity.
> 
> 
> ...


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## mdocod (Jul 24, 2007)

well, the 600 PILA cells are 67mm long, which is good because it's the same length as 2 CR123s... so you just add 1 cell extenders accordingly (3 extenders on a 3 cell body, 2 on a 4 cell, etc etc)... but 50mm cells, like the PILA 300 series, Wolf Eyes 150 series, 17500 or 18500 series cells... when stacked in odd numbers, end up "half-a-cell" over a whole number of CR123 lengths. So... (that's why Wolf-Eyes came up with a HALF cell extender to convert their M90 to a 3x18500 sized light)... was wondering what could be done to a M4 to fit 150mm worth of cells, instead of the standard ~133mm worth.


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## EV_007 (Jul 28, 2007)

Is it safe to run 6 RCRs? Or is it okay since they are run in parallel?

Looks like an excellent solution for guilt-free lumens setup.


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## BSBG (Jul 28, 2007)

EV_007 said:


> Is it safe to run 6 RCRs? Or is it okay since they are run in parallel?
> 
> Looks like an excellent solution for guilt-free lumens setup.



It's OK because they run in parallel :thumbsup:


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## js (Jul 30, 2007)

Nice. Very nice. I look forward to the release of this new LF lamp!

For those who are interested, there is a thread on using R123's in the M6, with the MN61 and MN60 lamps, and there are some beamshots with the MN61 but none with the MN60, as well as some discussion of charging issues and so on. The start of the thread is quite old, but I bumped it to the top recently and that part onward is fairly current.

I love the idea of this HO-M6R LF lamp because I feel quite sure that the MN61 is way overdriven on 2p3s R123's and also that the draw rate on the R123's is too high. The MN60 remains more or less unexplored on R123's, but obviously, it wasn't specifically designed for that use, so . . .

The HO-M6R and HO-M3T look like M6 *winners!!!*. Thanks very much [email protected]! I will post about this elsewhere as well.


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## Owen (Jul 30, 2007)

Jim, wait 'til you see the beam from a HO-M3T. It's like a N2 on steroids. Just like a N2. Barely any oval, bright even spill...absolutely gorgeous.


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## [email protected] (Aug 1, 2007)

Thanks JS,

Yes, we thought the market was too small to matter at first, but when we saw all the anticipation we have decided to give it a go. We don't plan to sell a lot of these, but at least it will make many people happy. Thanks for your nice comment. 

Mark


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## [email protected] (Aug 1, 2007)

Oh Guys, FYI: the HO-M6R is available now. :thumbsup:


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## CLHC (Aug 1, 2007)

Thanks for the heads up on the availability of said lamp assembly.


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## alantch (Aug 1, 2007)

js said:


> The HO-M6R and HO-M3T look like M6 *winners!!!*. Thanks very much [email protected]! I will post about this elsewhere as well.


What about the EO-M3T? Can this be used in the M6 on primaries?


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## gromit (Aug 1, 2007)

Order placed. 
My order was over $50. Please check that I wasn't charged for the LF-Inspector Penlite, Free Gift Promotion.

Dave


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## BSBG (Aug 1, 2007)

alantch said:


> What about the EO-M3T? Can this be used in the M6 on primaries?





From post 16 - the HO M3T will work with primaries. I tried it, very nice beam, to me it falls between the MN15 and the MN20 in output - maybe closer to the MN20. I have not tested the 80 minute run time, but it i if true it is a bit shorter than I was hoping for.



[email protected] said:


> DaFABRICATA,
> 
> Yes, you can use the HO-M3T in M6 using 6 x CR123A.
> 
> It is safe, the runtime would be about 80 minutes.


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## Telkin (Aug 2, 2007)

Thanks for making this bulb Mark, I for one really appreciate it and can't wait to try it. As always throwing my support behind LF, my order is in!

Ken


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## flashfan (Aug 2, 2007)

Any chance that lamps (brighter than SF HOLA) will be made for the M6 using primary 123 cells? Sorry if this has been asked before--I glanced through the thread but didn't see anything. Thanks!


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## Outdoors Fanatic (Aug 3, 2007)

BSBG said:


> From post 16 - the HO M3T will work with primaries. I tried it, very nice beam, to me it falls between the MN15 and the MN20 in output - maybe closer to the MN20. I have not tested the 80 minute run time, but it i if true it is a bit shorter than I was hoping for.


He mentioned the *EO-*M3T, not the *HO-*M3T.

Does anyone knows if the EO-M3T is safe in the M6 on primaries? Mark?


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## [email protected] (Aug 3, 2007)

The HO-M3T AND the EO-M3T are both okay to use on the M6 with primaries and there will be no problems.

Flashfan,

Right now, we don't have any plans to design a lamp specifically for the M6 on primaries. If you would like to buy one, well, SF's HOLA for the M6 is very good. To tell you the truth, if you want something brighter then the M6 HOLA, you probably should go the HID or ROP route. 

Thanks

Mark


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## alantch (Aug 3, 2007)

[email protected] said:


> The HO-M3T AND the EO-M3T are both okay to use on the M6 with primaries and there will be no problems.


That's very comforting to know. M6 on the way and EO-M3T ready for deployment! Thanks to Mark and LF for coming up with these great bulbs.


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## Outdoors Fanatic (Aug 3, 2007)

[email protected] said:


> The HO-M3T AND the EO-M3T are both okay to use on the M6 with primaries and there will be no problems.
> 
> Flashfan,
> 
> ...


*+1*

I completely agree!
The EO-MT3 already delivers enough light for my needs. The MN21 is too much (unless you are clearing rooms full of terrorists).


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## js (Aug 3, 2007)

flashfan said:


> Any chance that lamps (brighter than SF HOLA) will be made for the M6 using primary 123 cells? Sorry if this has been asked before--I glanced through the thread but didn't see anything. Thanks!



flashfan,

Draw much more than 2.5 amps from a stack of 123's (the MN21 draws about 5 from two stacks = 2.5 from each of the parallel stacks), and you will thermally shut them down on a regular basis. 2.5 amps is just about the limit.

So . . . more powerful lamp than the MN21, for use on primaries, isn't feasible.

The MN61 in the M6 head, with the MB20 loaded with good unprotected R123's like the Powerizers, will be brighter than the MN21. But unprotected Li-ion cells need special care and handling. DO NOT USE them unless you KNOW WHAT YOU ARE DOING!

Or there are FiveMega setups that use three Pila cells and a bulb holder that puts a WA1185 in the M6 head. That will be brighter than an MN21. Or a Mag85 on 9 NiMH cells, for example. But you probably know all that!

Hope this helped.


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## c0t0d0s0 (Aug 11, 2007)

Got the HO-M6R lamp today!

First impressions:
-about 70% of MN21 overall output
-more concentrated hotspot, about as much throw as the MN21 on fresh cells (both lamps max out my 20,000 lux lightmeter @ 1 m)
-Very nice, high color temperature - seems to be whiter than the MN21 

Notes on batteries:
I got 2 sets of 6 RCR123 batteries to run the lamp: AW and BatteryStation brands. I wanted to compare runtimes on each brand side by side. This, however, is not happening: one of the AW cells happened to be to long to fit into the MB20 battery magazine, so i'm currently testing the bulb on BatteryStation cells only. 

-The MB20 has very stiff springs. The springs actually dent the negative contact plate of the AW cells. This is the reason why I didn't try forcing that 1 AW cell in - just don't want to risk crushing the protection circuit. The BatteryStation cells seem to have a steel plate for negative contact, so denting is not an issue. I recall that earlier AW cells - the ones with blue shrinkwrap - also used to have steel contacts, why did AW drop this nice feature in their newer, black cells???
-At least one of my BatteryStation cells seems to have too sensitive protection circuit, as the setup requires double tapping to light at full power - it lights up at 1/3 brightness on single tap, obviously running on a single stack of batteries.

Runtime/brightness test running - will post the graph soon :devil:


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## Worklight (Aug 11, 2007)

Very nice, cant wait to see those graphs, and beam shots , we need beam shots


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## leprechaun414 (Aug 12, 2007)

> Runtime/brightness test running - will post the graph soon :devil:


 
Can't wait. Looks like another to buy


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## c0t0d0s0 (Aug 12, 2007)

Here you go:







Results: 32 minutes till protection kicked in. ~500 to ~280 torch lumens in 30 minutes. Nice middle ground between MN21 and MN20 in terms of overall output and runtime, with as much throw as the MN21.

Note #2 on batteries: after the protection kicked in, the bulb didn't turn completely off, as you can see on the graph: it was still very dimly illuminated when I stopped the test. Not sure what the reason was. All batteries measured at around 3.4V after settling, so I guess no permanent damage was done to them. Anyway, it looks like a bad idea to leave this setup unattended, as these batteries can potentially be overdischarged! Upon further examination, bottom plates on BatteryStation cells also happened to be slightly dented, also not nearly as bas as those on the AW cells.

Note on economics: looks like $84 down the drain on batteries i can't use. Can anyone recommend protected cells that are not too long, have decent protection circuits and tough bottom plates to use with this setup? 

What this bulb really needs is a 3x17670 holder, properly sized to fit the M6. Someone *cough*fivemega*cough* please make one!

Next test: EO-M3T on primaries in the M6.


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## xiaowenzu (Aug 12, 2007)

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe this Lamp is not Surefire certified. According to the Surefire website, it says to use only genuine SF lamps (MN21, MN20) because they've been vigorously tested and shock isolated to prevent recoil. So this Lamp is made by a non-surefire company, I'm not sure I will buy it.


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## BSBG (Aug 12, 2007)

xiaowenzu said:


> Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe this Lamp is not Surefire certified. According to the Surefire website, it says to use only genuine SF lamps (MN21, MN20) because they've been vigorously tested and shock isolated to prevent recoil. So this Lamp is made by a non-surefire company, I'm not sure I will buy it.



You are not wrong, this is an after market bulb and not sanctioned by SF in any way. But, if you read this forum, you will see hundreds of satisfied users with no issues due to the lamp assembly. 

As with anything, it's your money, you make the choice. Me, I am quite happy with the Lumensfactory bulbs I use.


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## StainlessSteel (Aug 12, 2007)

c0t0d0s0 said:


> Next test: EO-M3T on primaries in the M6.




Thank you very, VERY much, I really appreciate that.

I have been waiting on some runtime plots for that bulb and light combination.


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## xiaowenzu (Aug 12, 2007)

BSBG said:


> But, if you read this forum, you will see hundreds of satisfied users with no issues due to the lamp assembly.


 But I intend to mount my SF M6 onto a firearm, which is not a typical usage! :twothumbs


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## c0t0d0s0 (Aug 12, 2007)

StainlessSteel said:


> Thank you very, VERY much, I really appreciate that.
> 
> I have been waiting on some runtime plots for that bulb and light combination.



Here you go!






The EO-M3T on primaries seems to be a bit brighter than the MN20, with a little less useful runtime. Approximately ~320 to ~140 torch lumens in 45 minutes. From the shape of the graph, it looks just a little ovedriven the first minute or so on fresh cells, not too bad though, so it shouldn't negatively affect the lifetime of the bulb too much.

The real good news is - it really throws with its small, intense hotspot. On the lightmeter, it scored 19500 lux @ 1m, this is almost up there with the MN21! The MN20 is a lot floodier, with larger hotspot and "only" ~8000 lux @1m. 

Let me tell you, this bulb is all I'm gonna use in my M6 on primaries from now on. :devil:


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## BSBG (Aug 12, 2007)

Great info, thanks for posting it. 

I haven't tried the EO M3T, but the HO M3T is a tad less bright than the MN20, with a great round, white hot spot. I assume run time would be close the the 80 minutes claimed in the M6

I put it into my M3T and will probably leave it there, keeping an MN21 and an MN15 in the M6's, with MN20s as backup.


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## seattlite (Sep 1, 2007)

Anyone know whether the HO-M6R will work with the "js" M6-R battery pack?


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## Bryan (Sep 1, 2007)

xiaowenzu said:


> Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe this Lamp is not Surefire certified. According to the Surefire website, it says to use only genuine SF lamps (MN21, MN20) because they've been vigorously tested and shock isolated to prevent recoil. So this Lamp is made by a non-surefire company, I'm not sure I will buy it.


 
And your point is? I have several LF products and they are top notch. You're missing out if you think Surefire is the only company that makes quality products.


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## LED61 (Sep 1, 2007)

seattlite said:


> Anyone know whether the HO-M6R will work with the "js" M6-R battery pack?


 

It will not work or be severely underdriven since it is intended for two stacks of R123's. Jim's pack puts out 6.8V for the MN21.


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## SunStar (Sep 2, 2007)

c0t0d0s0 said:


> Here you go:
> 
> 
> Note on economics: *looks like $84 down the drain on batteries* i can't use. Can anyone recommend protected cells that are not too long, have decent protection circuits and tough bottom plates to use with this setup?
> ...



Has anyone identified the best protected cells to use with the LF-HOM6R? Is Battery Station it?


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## PetesTactical (Sep 2, 2007)

I'm confused, the first post says the new LA puts out 700 lumens, the SF HOLA is rated at 500 Lumens. The graph showes that the SF HOLA is brighter???


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## BSBG (Sep 2, 2007)

PetesTactical said:


> I'm confused, the first post says the new LA puts out 700 lumens, the SF HOLA is rated at 500 Lumens. The graph showes that the SF HOLA is brighter???



Thea's because LF uses "bulb" lumens where Surefire uses lumens "out the front" or Torch lumens. The generally accepted rule of thumb is Torch lumens = bulb lumens x 0.65.

So the LF bulb is closer to 450 lumens. Also, Surefire is conservative in their ratings, publishing the value at the midpoint of the run. Initially the MN21 puts out over 600 lumens.


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## PetesTactical (Sep 2, 2007)

Haaaa, very good explaination! Thanks.


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## leprechaun414 (Sep 3, 2007)

I was thinking of buying the AW cells for this but has anyone found a better fitting cell?


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## LED61 (Sep 3, 2007)

leprechaun414 said:


> I was thinking of buying the AW cells for this but has anyone found a better fitting cell?


If you want to go protected--and I definitely would--I believe it is your only choice.


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## Outdoors Fanatic (Sep 4, 2007)

LED61 said:


> If you want to go protected--and I definitely would--I believe it is your only choice.


What about those yellow RCR123's from Battery Station?


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## tibim (Sep 4, 2007)

The Battery Station cells are protected with a low voltage cutoff. However, they warn against using them in incan lights when hot off the charger. Has anyone tested them with the HO-M6R LF bulb?

From the website:

"Keep in mind that they are protected but not regulated, so you are dealing with a battery that will reach about 4.2V coming right off the charger if fully charged. This voltage can be harmful to incandescent lights. We do not recommend their use in incandescent flashlights due to the higher voltage of the battery."

-tibim


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## LED61 (Sep 4, 2007)

Outdoors Fanatic said:


> What about those yellow RCR123's from Battery Station?


 
I've never been able to use my yellow BS 123's in my incans. Even with a double click it's a no go.


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## c0t0d0s0 (Sep 4, 2007)

Here's another graph: HO-M6R on three AW 17670 cells in series. 







Like I had suspected, this combo is awesome. Brighter, flatter, with 30% more runtime than 6 RCR123's in the MB20 can provide, no doubleclicking required.

For this experiment, I used fivemega's 3x17670 serial holder, ghetto rigged to fit the M6 (spacer and insulating washer to avoid a short).

Someone PLEASE make a proper 3x17670 holder for the M6!!!


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## SunStar (Sep 4, 2007)

I guess fit on the AW RCR123's is hit and miss... I only have two samples and both fit the MB20 fine.

My experience with AW is that he has great customer service. I'm pretty sure that if one ordered from AW for this application and let him know, he would perform a "fit" check prior to shipping.


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## tibim (Sep 6, 2007)

Well seems like there are alot of people interested in this(including me) but are waiting for a source for reliable batteries for the setup.

Also does anyone know of a way to charge the 6 rcr123a cells at one time? Besides getting 3 chargers?

-tibim


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## LED61 (Sep 6, 2007)

tibim said:


> Well seems like there are alot of people interested in this(including me) but are waiting for a source for reliable batteries for the setup.
> 
> Also does anyone know of a way to charge the 6 rcr123a cells at one time? Besides getting 3 chargers?
> 
> -tibim


 
Yes, the Triton charger will charge your cells in the MB20 battery holder. You will need the magnet ends in the charger for + and -. Also, it will be a good idea to check for cell balance individually after every few cycles.

From AW's R123 sales thread in the dealer's corner:


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## Outdoors Fanatic (Sep 6, 2007)

LED61 said:


> Yes, the Triton charger will charge your cells in the MB20 battery holder. You will need the magnet ends in the charger for + and -. Also, it will be a good idea to check for cell balance individually after every few cycles.
> 
> From AW's R123 sales thread in the dealer's corner:


That's pretty cool.


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## SunStar (Sep 6, 2007)

It would be cool if LF, AW or other could put together a package that would include the HOM6R LA, batteries and properly rigged charger. Maybe offer an extra MB20 and an additional set of batteries as an option... or maybe I'm just lazy:thinking: . My curiosity will eventually probably get the best of me anyway.


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## c0t0d0s0 (Oct 20, 2007)

Bump for LumensFactory. HO-M6R for teh win!!!1

My setup:

Fivemega's 3x17670 serial holder, 3 AW 17670 cells, insulating washer, the 6 cent spacer.


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## Brozneo (Oct 20, 2007)

js said:


> The HO-M6R and HO-M3T look like M6 *winners!!!*. Thanks very much [email protected]! I will post about this elsewhere as well.


 
Excellent! I have a few spare HO-M3T lamps floating around - going to try this out now!


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## Monocrom (Oct 20, 2007)

c0t0d0s0 said:


> Bump for LumensFactory. HO-M6R for teh win!!!1


 
Not if you go back to post #60 of this thread....

Not to take away from the good news of this after-market set-up, but when are companies going to stop with the retarded process of measuring lumens at the emitter, and not Out the Front? At least Surefire does it the right way. So does Pelican. (I've heard HDS does too).

Not to single out anyone in particular, but this is a problem that goes across the board when it comes to this industry. 

Ever time I consider a light purchase from a company that's not one of the three mentioned above, I have to consciously remind myself to subtract the lumens numbers by half to 2/3, in order to get the actual lumens rating. I say _actual_, because no one uses a light at the emitter! So why even bother measuring it there? Yes, nice to know what the light is *capable* of putting out. Now tell me what I can realistically expect.


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## mdocod (Oct 20, 2007)

> but when are companies going to stop with the retarded process of measuring lumens at the emitter, and not Out the Front?



I could ask the same question about why companies list the amount of soda in a bottle in ML and not oz, jeez what a pain in my $%^! 

I could complain about Surefire. Their numbers are inconvenient because it is impossible to know at what voltage they are getting that number of lumens, Surefire tells you very little about the lumens they are talking about, what we do know is that they are generally underrated torch lumens, but no-one knows by how much they are underrated. LumensFactory has been kind enough to give EXACT specifications for a bulbs output, CCT, current, and expected life at a specific voltage. With all that information you can easily figure out nearly exactly how many torch lumens you are getting at any point during a discharge of any nearly battery configuration using relatively easy calculations. With everyone else's bulbs, it's a guessing game because you have no idea what voltage those lumens where achieved at. 

The point to be made here is the following:

LumensFactory is a distributor of bulb replacements for flashlights, and while many of their bulbs have a reflector attached, some of them do NOT. (like the M series)... The point I am making here, is that, if they are selling you, basically a bare bulb, then how could they possibly give accurate torch lumens for your configuration? What if your lens is dirty or scratched? what if you have a different reflector? Their reflector assemblies do not have a lens, depending on the lens you couple with it, you could loose anywhere form 1% to 10% out the front, so do you expect LF you come up with a torch lumen value for you? Or for your neighbor? They don't sell completed flashlights, and as such, I much prefer they treat their bulbs and bulb spec listings as any other bulb manufacture does. If you go to bulbconnection.com or 1000bulbs.com or any other place that sells bulbs, you will see output listed at the bulb, not re-calculated for an unknown reflector assembly.

I for one, would much rather have detailed bulb specifications. The issue of bulb verse torch lumen issue is ONLY a problem when the company giving the ratings fails to tell you which it is, in the case of LF, it is very clearly bulb lumens, says so all over their web page.


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## Monocrom (Oct 20, 2007)

mdocod said:


> I could ask the same question about why companies list the amount of soda in a bottle in ML and not oz, jeez what a pain in my $%^! ....
> 
> 
> .... I for one, would much rather have detailed bulb specifications. The issue of bulb verse torch lumen issue is ONLY a problem when the company giving the ratings fails to tell you which it is, in the case of LF, it is very clearly bulb lumens, says so all over their web page.


 
When you convert ML into oz., you don't end up with less liquid. You do end up with less lumens when comparing lumens Out the Front vs. at the Emitter.

Also, I didn't single out LF. I agree that when a company makes bulbs, rather than lights, it is silly to expect lumens numbers that are Out the Front. On the other hand, if you're making high-output replacement bulbs for a certain type of popular flashlight model; then you're going to be able to measure the lumens coming Out the Front. All I'm saying is, why not include those numbers? No one is going to think that they're going to be exact. But if folks are thinking that they're getting 700 lumens, and it is closer to 450.... I think that's a big enough difference that could affect whether or not someone will choose to buy the product. 

If I bought a high-output, after-market lamp that turned out to be only 2/3rds as bright as advertised, I'd feel as though I got cheated. I think most folks would feel the same. If an aftermarket lamp is made for a variety of different lights that use different reflectors and lenses, that's one thing. But if it's for a popular model made by a well-known company, why not just mention the lumens numbers that were gotten when the light was tested with one sample of said model from said company? It's not like I'm asking LF (or anyone else) to bend over backwards to make consumers happy.


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## william lafferty (Oct 21, 2007)

c0t0d0s0 said:


> Bump for LumensFactory. HO-M6R for teh win!!!1
> 
> My setup:
> 
> ...


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## william lafferty (Oct 21, 2007)

c0t0d0s0 said:


> Here you go!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

c0t0d0s0,

Interesting graph. Looks like you're getting 30+ minutes of pretty bright light with the M3T. Could you do a comparison with the MN15? I dont know if you are aware of it, but js has another thread discussing the MN 15 in the M6 run on primaries. The essence of it is that that combination gets 2.5 hours of runtime, but I'm not sure of the light falloff during that time, and I'm not sure of the brightness comparisons of the MN 15 and the M3T at the outset. I do know that I have been using the MN15 in the M6 with primaries and it produces a very strong, usable beam.

bill lafferty


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## LED61 (Oct 21, 2007)

Monocrom said:


> Not if you go back to post #60 of this thread....
> 
> Not to take away from the good news of this after-market set-up, but when are companies going to stop with the retarded process of measuring lumens at the emitter, and not Out the Front? At least Surefire does it the right way. So does Pelican. (I've heard HDS does too).
> 
> ...


 
it's a bulb company not a flashlight company. The logical thing to do is to advertise the bulb lumens.


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## c0t0d0s0 (Oct 21, 2007)

william lafferty said:


> c0t0d0s0,
> 
> Interesting graph. Looks like you're getting 30+ minutes of pretty bright light with the M3T. Could you do a comparison with the MN15? I dont know if you are aware of it, but js has another thread discussing the MN 15 in the M6 run on primaries. The essence of it is that that combination gets 2.5 hours of runtime, but I'm not sure of the light falloff during that time, and I'm not sure of the brightness comparisons of the MN 15 and the M3T at the outset. I do know that I have been using the MN15 in the M6 with primaries and it produces a very strong, usable beam.
> 
> bill lafferty



Yeah I saw the thread. Unfortunately I'm not able to test this combo simply because I don't have an MN15 in my posession.


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## Monocrom (Oct 21, 2007)

LED61 said:


> it's a bulb company not a flashlight company. The logical thing to do is to advertise the bulb lumens.


 
I've already responded to that point in post #77 of this thread.


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## brunt_sp (Jan 14, 2008)

Another great thread. I've got two of the LAs ordered. There seems to be different opinions on whether the charging method in post #70 is safe or whether the batteries should be removed from the MB20 and charged seperately. Nevertheless, I like the Triton charger. Where can I get one ?


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## jw1 (Jun 3, 2008)

BSBG said:


> Thea's because LF uses "bulb" lumens where Surefire uses lumens "out the front" or Torch lumens. The generally accepted rule of thumb is Torch lumens = bulb lumens x 0.65.
> 
> So the LF bulb is closer to 450 lumens. Also, Surefire is conservative in their ratings, publishing the value at the midpoint of the run. Initially the MN21 puts out over 600 lumens.


 

So thats why my MN21 is twice as bright as the lumen's factory bulb. 
Kind of disappointed with the performance.

Is their a bulb or mod that would push 110-1200 Torch lumen's?


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## Outdoors Fanatic (Jun 3, 2008)

The MN21 is not twice as bright as the LF HO-M6R, that's impossible. Output measurements showed that it seats exactly between the MN20 and the MN21.

The MN21 is brighter than the HO-M6, but it is not absurdly brighter and you can't run the MN21


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## KeyGrip (Jun 3, 2008)

A WA 1185?


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## Daniel_sk (Jun 6, 2008)

How does the HO-M6R bulb compare to a WA1111?

I read that 3x17670 AW cells can drive the HO-M6R for ~40 minutes (why buy 6 RCR with less runtime and more cost?)
The WA1111 can be driven by 2 AW C cells but an extender ring is needed in the M6. Runtime is also about ~50 minutes but bulb life is reduced to ~10 hours.

Sounds like the 3x17670 HO-M6R option has a comparable runtime, much better bulb life (a bulb explosion would be less possible) and no extender ring/modifications needed. How much brighter is a WA1111?

Any other option? I am looking for a rechargeable option for the M6, the output must be about the brightness of the MN21 and should have 30+ minutes runtime.

Thanks.


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## DM51 (Jun 6, 2008)

The HO-M6R is between the MN20 and MN21 in brightness. Bear in mind LF specs are in bulb lumens.

The MN21 on 3s2p CR123A primaries, and WA1111 on 2s ‘C’ Li-Ions, are very similar in output. Another M6 option for the WA1111 would be 2s2p 14670 in a FM 4x14670 holder, or 2s 18650 in mdocod’s 2x18650 holder, both of which options would give you ~35 mins.

At some stage over the next few days I hope I will have time to do some beamshots of the various different power / LA options for the M6.


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## Daniel_sk (Jun 6, 2008)

Thank you David.
I have been thinking the last few days about the pros/cons of the different rechargeable options. 
The 2xC WA1111 gives the best runtime and enough brightness (which I could see on my own eyes with a Mag11), but I am still not sure about the extension ring - which seems to increase the compact length of the M6 quite a bit.
I haven't heared about the 4x14760 or 2x18650 holders yet. Two 18650s would be preferable (less cells to recharge, less to go wrong) but a WA1111 might be pulling a bit too much from two 18650's? 

I think I am drawing this thread off-topic.
I'll wait for your comparision review, I am really looking forward to it. Thanks :thumbsup:.


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