# SSC vs. Cree



## AardvarkSagus (Jan 14, 2009)

Out of curiosity, why is it that so vast a majority of lights use the Cree LEDs when from all of my research it appears that the SSC version is better suited to flashlights? It has a better beam pattern that more closely resembles the Luxeon pattern from yesteryear, (a softer spill, brighter spot, and smoother transition) while keeping similar efficiency to Cree due to the identical dies being used in the chips. 

Is there another factor that I am missing here? I don't even own a SSC based light due to the fact that so many of the popular ones use the Cree.


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## Marduke (Jan 14, 2009)

The thermal characteristics is one big reason. Availability is another.


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## michaelmcgo (Jan 14, 2009)

The Cree's are always a few steps ahead (aside from the P7 vs. MC-E) as far as brightness and efficiency is concerned. The SSC P4 is relatively ages old, while Cree has come out with the Q2, Q5, R2, etc. in the mean time. I believe the SSC P4 is very similar to the Cree P4, but the SSC's tend to be binned much higher. The Cree LEDs are manufactured with a metal ring surrounding the glass dome, this is (I believe) what causes the "Cree Rings". Cree's seem to be on the frontline as far as new LED tech goes.


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## L.E.D. (Jan 14, 2009)

Marduke said:


> The thermal characteristics is one big reason. Availability is another.



+1
Note that the SSC uses the exact same emitter die as the Crees, the EZ1000 which is in fact made by Cree, as do a few other LED's. The thermal characteristics are the big thing here. The metal ring on the Cree XR-E is what makes the infamous Cree ring, but the Cree XP-E, which is even smaller than the Luxeon Rebel, should remove this ring and will probably make a smoother, Luxeon-like beam pattern as well. Just look at beamshots of the Inova InForce!


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## glenda17 (Jan 14, 2009)

IMO the SSC is superior for a flashlight then the Cree. I can't do detail work with a ring floating around as I work. I think if you research Cree LED's they were never intended for flashlights. The Chinese decided to use them in flashlights with improper reflectors and it led to the predicament we are in today. 

Hopefully Cree will come out with a better quality product. The MC-E has terrible optics vs the P7, so I'm not holding my breath.


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## Marduke (Jan 14, 2009)

glenda17 said:


> IMO the SSC is superior for a flashlight then the Cree. I can't do detail work with a ring floating around as I work. I think if you research Cree LED's they were never intended for flashlights. The Chinese decided to use them in flashlights with improper reflectors and it led to the predicament we are in today.
> 
> Hopefully Cree will come out with a better quality product. The MC-E has terrible optics vs the P7, so I'm not holding my breath.



Plenty of North American companies decided to use Cree's in flashlights also. SureFire, Energizer, Rayovac, Brinkman, ColeMan, Leatherman just to name a few all have models with Cree's.

Also, Cree has already come out with improved products suitable for flashlights, such as the XP-E.


BTW, use a Cree with no optics at all for detail work and you'll have a perfectly smooth beam with zero artifacts.


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## DM51 (Jan 14, 2009)

Belongs in LED, not LED Flashlights.


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## glenda17 (Jan 14, 2009)

Marduke said:


> Also, Cree has already come out with improved products suitable for flashlights, such as the XP-E.
> 
> .


 

Are there any flashlights I should try with that has the XP-E, or can you buy an XP-E star anywhere?


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## AardvarkSagus (Jan 14, 2009)

glenda17 said:


> Are there any flashlights I should try with that has the XP-E, or can you buy an XP-E star anywhere?


The only light I am aware of actually using the XP-E at the moment is the Inova Inforce (www.inova-mil.com). Other than that, I'm not sure. I know that Neoseikan has toyed around with the idea of putting them into the next iteration of the Spartanian, but I am not certain where that lies.



DM51 said:


> Belongs in LED, not LED Flashlights.


I beg to differ on this thread however since it is specifically regarding how the different LEDs perform _in flashlights_, but since you are the moderator, I won't put up a big fight.


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## DM51 (Jan 14, 2009)

AardvarkSagus said:


> I beg to differ on this thread however since it is specifically regarding how the different LEDs perform _in flashlights_, but since you are the moderator, I won't put up a big fight.


No big fight from me on this, either. You may be right, and I'll certainly listen to other opinions. However it is probably a discussion about the difference in characteristics of the LED types, not the flashlights, so doesn't it belong here?


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## yellow (Jan 14, 2009)

You can never get a real technical "answer" to Cree vs. Seoul, it will always be based on the posters _impression_ .

f.e.: not taking into account the positive slug on the P4 (ridiculus) and the parallel driven P7 (not going into detail here) ...
... *EVERY* of my attempts to build lights with Seouls led to bad ones.

If lucky the output is only very much on the blue side, getting even more blue when raising the current (to be still within datasheet value).
Even when the ratings (which are a joke, do not look at the highest possible lumen from that bin, look at the average or the guaranteed lowest --> here they are always way below the matching cree, which also has the whiter light not changing at more power) are much higher, the (older!) Crees won easily, just by comparing with the eyes ... which means there is quite a difference, as our eyes are not this good.

Compared to that, all my Crees - even the "blue" tinted ones - give a nice white beam,
no rings because I use good reflectors

My best mod so far, a SF 6P modded in April 2006 with a Cree XR-E P4 and 18650 still is brighter than any newer light I have gotten till now. The tint is white (I was able to choose it, which I am not with Seoul). 
With all my trustfires, Jetbeam, L-Mini, Xtar, ..., I usually grab the modded 6P 
imho most of the good performance comes from the sandwich shoppe 19 mm reflector (which I would have no corresponding one when using a Seoul) 

... but do I know if I maybe have made mistakes when using Seouls?
Probably their poor performance is just my fault?
:thinking:
... You see: simply impression

(but I am sure You will get a whole lot more votes for "inconsistent performance" for Seouls)


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## yellow (Jan 14, 2009)

> Hopefully Cree will come out with a better quality product. The MC-E has terrible optics vs the P7, so I'm not holding my breath.


You say the direct driven P7, with no special optic/reflector and no good driver for driving the wrong wired led, is better to the serial wired where trusted and proven and small drivers are available around for years?

better ask the modders  

I dont get that part with the "terrible" optics :thinking:
There simply are NONE at the moment, or?
For both quad-led

in theory the smaller size of the MC-E is a plus
(and as long as there are only crap quality P7 or MC-E lights, with everything (driver, reflector, light itself) being heavy crap, it makes no sense to argue what led might be better, or?


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## asdalton (Jan 14, 2009)

The SSC is a better match for the types of reflectors that worked well with the Luxeon, such as the stock C/D Mag reflector. However, the SSC is a relatively large emitter that doesn't seem to give as much throw for a given lumen output than the Luxeon or Cree.

For example, the Novatac lights are too floody for my preferences, although some people like them.

A well-designed reflector in combination with a Cree emitter throws well. Examples of this include the Pelican 7060 and the Fenix TK20. And if you want to see what a Cree LED can do with a good optic, there's the Surefire E2DL. 

By the way, the *SSC P4* is a model identifier that shouldn't be confused with the *Cree P4* output bin.


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## Buck91 (Jan 14, 2009)

Yellow, what SSC's have you used? I've used various bins from USV0H, U2SW0I to U2SV0H, and likewise have found various tints from fairly blue and weak (U2SW0I) to a virtually perfect tint with excellent color rendition and goo brightness (USV0H in a MagLED 3D).

The positive slug is really a non-issue since a little bit of AA on the base to secure the led will electrically insulate it as well.

I'm a huge fan of the SSC P4 beam- very smooth- plus you can bring a lot of lights back from the scrap pile (for example my mountain biking bar light, Cat Eye Triple Shot. Worthless with stock Lux3 but top-notch with U2SWOH and Khatod 20mm reflectors)...


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## phantom23 (Jan 14, 2009)

michaelmcgo said:


> The Cree's are always a few steps ahead (aside from the P7 vs. MC-E) as far as brightness and efficiency is concerned.


As it has been said they use the same dies, just SSC has "wider" binning. Current highest bin is U2 - up to [email protected] (R2 range! and Cree has still problems with R2's - no dies=no higher SSC/Cree bins). And why P7 can be brighter, and P4 can't?



yellow said:


> If lucky the output is only very much on the blue side, getting even more blue when raising the current (to be still within datasheet value).


You had no luck with bad source. SSC has similar tints as Cree. My new U2SWOH is really bright and has no blue tint at all even @1,2A.



yellow said:


> in theory the smaller size of the MC-E is a plus
> (and as long as there are only crap quality P7 or MC-E lights, with everything (driver, reflector, light itself) being heavy crap, it makes no sense to argue what led might be better, or?


Smaller size of MC-E is a " - " because 4 dies and such small lens give really weird and hard to focus beam pattern. It is easier to fit to current reflectors but that's all. Beam will be more floody with more artifacts and more noticeable donut hole.


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## jtr1962 (Jan 14, 2009)

Four things in favor of the Cree:

1) More amenable to overdriving (SSC get angry blue at 2 amps, Crees don't)
2) Glass dome doesn't pick up dust like the SSC gummy bear dome
3) Color rendering seems a little better, especially the reds
4) Thermal pad is electrically neutral

Three things in favor of the SSC:

1) Beam profile similar to Luxeon
2) Generally less expensive and more readily available than Cree
3) There is a line of high CRI LEDs (Cree has neutrals and warm white, but none with phosphor specifically designed for higher color rendering)

Each has its uses.


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## TexLite (Jan 14, 2009)

AardvarkSagus said:


> Out of curiosity, why is it that so vast a majority of lights use the Cree LEDs when from all of my research it appears that the SSC version is better suited to flashlights?


 
Aardvark,

I think what you'll find many times when a question like this is posted is that you will get misinformation from some along with bits of fact sprinkled in here and there by others.

The best you can hope for here is a clear,unbiased and factual response such as jtr1962's directly above.

As jtr1962 said,both have their advantages.It would be nice to see a "hybrid" combining the best features of both.

-Michael


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## Marduke (Jan 14, 2009)

phantom23 said:


> As it has been said they use the same dies, just SSC has "wider" binning. Current highest bin is U2 - up to [email protected] (R2 range! and Cree has still problems with R2's - no dies=no higher SSC/Cree bins). And why P7 can be brighter, and P4 can't?



However, when you buy out of an SSC bin, you buy out of the bottom, not the top. So SSC cannot produce R2 level efficiency either.

And yes, SSC buys Cree EZ1000 dies.


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## saabluster (Jan 14, 2009)

Marduke said:


> However, when you buy out of an SSC bin, you buy out of the bottom, not the top.


Curious. Do you have any evidence to support this statement?


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## Marduke (Jan 14, 2009)

saabluster said:


> Curious. Do you have any evidence to support this statement?



The average flux historically fell well below the midpoint of the bin. You can look up that data if you so desire.

The U bin tops out near R2 efficiency, when in fact to this day they cannot product any quantity of such high efficiency emitters, let alone years ago when the bin was outlined. 

Also, why do you think they continually spilt their "premium" bins, only after a period of product development? Only after they can produce a reasonable number of emitters that fall over the halfway point, they split the bin, so they can begin selling a new "premium" emitters that statistically fall in the bottom of the new premium bin.


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## jtr1962 (Jan 15, 2009)

Although a sample of 2 is admittedly statisically meaningless, here are my results for a pair of SSC U2 LEDs. Note that both LEDs barely squeak into the U2 bin at ~101 lumens.


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## Sgt. LED (Jan 15, 2009)

I like 1 of them for closer work and inside, I like the other for distance work and outside. Pick your pleasure, pretty beams or throwy beams.

All I want to use right now are the warm tints offered by both. High CRI Seoul and 5A Q3 Cree's are my favorites. 

I am very happy we have many more choices in quality emitters that we did just this time last year. :twothumbs


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## asdalton (Jan 15, 2009)

jtr1962 said:


> Although a sample of 2 is admittedly statisically meaningless, here are my results for a pair of SSC U2 LEDs. Note that both LEDs barely squeak into the U2 bin at ~101 lumens.



It's not statistically meaningless, but having only 2 data points--the bare minimum for doing any kind of confidence interval analysis--will give a wide spread in estimating the true mean of the output bin.

Using your data and the t-test with 95% confidence interval in Excel, I estimated that the mean for the U2 bin (assuming that you got emitters randomly selected from the U2 distribution available at the time) is between 99 and 103 lumens @ 350 mA.

Using a 99% confidence interval, that uncertainty widens to 91-111 lumens @ 350 mA.


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## saabluster (Jan 15, 2009)

Marduke said:


> Also, why do you think they continually spilt their "premium" bins, only after a period of product development? Only after they can produce a reasonable number of emitters that fall over the halfway point, they split the bin, so they can begin selling a new "premium" emitters that statistically fall in the bottom of the new premium bin.


Very interesting. I have never thought deeply enough into the way SSC does things but it looks like there may be something to this theory. No surprise however as they have always been ones to "overrate" their LEDs. That is one reason I like Cree. I prefer the tighter binning so you know what your getting. SSC seems to like to mislead you. This is most evident in their press releases.


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## Fallingwater (Jan 15, 2009)

I too prefer SSCs, which is why I'm swapping them in many lights that use Crees (such as my L-Mini). The beam is just so much more useful and cleaner that I don't mind losing a bit of efficiency (I've been using U1 bins so far, as they're what is available on DX).

IMO Crees are good for exactly two things: 1) throwy lights with smooth reflectors, and 2) unreflectored, short-range work-area lights.
Trying to bludgeon a Cree into providing some flood via OP reflectors is like mowing a football field with a weedwhacker. Someone occasionally does get it right (my NDI has a pretty clean and smooth beam for a Cree), but using a SSC is just so much simpler than futzing around with different reflectors and whatnot. Note that using optics instead of reflectors can help; I have a few plastic optics from KD that provide decent spill and no rings when fitted on a Cree. But again, a SSC is better.


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## saabluster (Jan 15, 2009)

Buck91 said:


> The positive slug is really a non-issue since a little bit of AA on the base to secure the led will electrically insulate it as well.



You can't make a blanket statement like that as it depends on the application. If you are running at a higher current the added thickness of the AA can be a problem with heat transfer. 



phantom23 said:


> Cree has still problems with R2's


:thinking:I don't recall Cree having any problems with R2s.


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## Pöbel (Jan 15, 2009)

Those SSC U2 results are kinda dissapointing knowing that this particular bin has been in the market for quite some time while still only performing on the lower end of the U2 bin.


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## Greg G (Jan 15, 2009)

I like both LED's. They have different performance characteristics, and I use them accordingly. The Cree is slightly more versatile IMO. It can be a better thrower in a smooth reflector, albeit with a few artifacts, or give a very smooth beam with the right reflector, such as the McR series. The smoothest white wall beams I have were had with Crees and McR19XR's.

The Seoul USVOH tint is beautiful IMO, and I use it on a couple of lights. Just creamy slightly warm light. I haven't seen a Cree with that tint, unfortunately. I can also use the Seoul in an inexpensive plastic reflector, such as the IMS family, and get very pleasing results on a budget.

So, they both have their place, and I suggest people have about ten lights with each brand. :twothumbs


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## AardvarkSagus (Jan 15, 2009)

Greg G said:


> So, they both have their place, and I suggest people have about ten lights with each brand. :twothumbs


The issue I have is that I have just over 10 lights total so that is going to take a while. Maybe eventually.

On a somewhat related note, do we as a group think that the Cree XP-E is going to be the deciding factor in this brand-war? Smaller size+wider emission pattern=Easier to focus to whatever beam you want?


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## SafetyBob (Jan 15, 2009)

I to have about 10 led lights too, maybe a couple of more, but I have made probably 30 now that have mainly been given away as birthday or Christmas presents. 

I started with Cree, due to availabilty and had great success but as noted, the bins I could get did have alot of blue sided coloring. Nothing to bad, particularly if that was the only light I used. All the Cree lights I built came out much, much better than any of the purchased Cree based lights I bought at a retailer. 

I had to try a couple of Seouls and I frankly loved the whiter look of the led. The floody, white light on that [email protected] reflector was amazing. So since most of my "presents" will be used close-in such as looking through a drawer or looking under a bed, the wider, whiter Seoul leds for this usage has been a winner. Most importantly, Mouser ALWAYS has them. Color aways OK. If I need something specific, I have to come here to the Marketplace or the B/S/T forum to get exactly what I need for a specific project. 

I try to use both manufacturer's leds when ever possible. As noted above, they both are great led's and are only getting better. And it is aways amazing to me that we are able to make our own workable projects with these leds. 

Bob E.


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## Fallingwater (Jan 16, 2009)

AardvarkSagus said:


> On a somewhat related note, do we as a group think that the Cree XP-E is going to be the deciding factor in this brand-war? Smaller size+wider emission pattern=Easier to focus to whatever beam you want?


Probably. We'll have Cree R2 dies in both throwy XR-E and floody XP-E versions and with no positive slug problems (hopefully).
I foresee dark times for SSC P4 emitters... though I imagine they'll still be easier to use for Luxeon swaps.
It would be nice if Cree XP-Es came with a star of the appropriate thickness for them to be instant swaps with XR-Es, without having to bother with spacers.


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## TexLite (Jan 17, 2009)

saabluster said:


> :thinking:I don't recall Cree having any problems with R2s.


 
He's probably referring to Cree producing the R2's only in limited numbers.

Its been speculated this is the reason Cree has not updated the datsheet with the R2 bin,they still aren't producing them in great enough numbers to supply the demand.

On a side note,anyone have some info on the V bin SSC's?I find it strange they haven't released anything considering they were producing them in significant enough numbers to appear in some lights a year or so ago.

-Michael


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## TexLite (Jan 17, 2009)

Fallingwater said:


> It would be nice if Cree XP-Es came with a star of the appropriate thickness for them to be instant swaps with XR-Es, without having to bother with spacers.


 
+1.

I think something will be available eventually,considering they are already manufactured for the Rebel.

-Michael


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## jirik_cz (Jan 17, 2009)

TexLite said:


> He's probably referring to Cree producing the R2's only in limited numbers.
> 
> Its been speculated this is the reason Cree has not updated the datsheet with the R2 bin,they still aren't producing them in great enough numbers to supply the demand.
> 
> -Michael



Cree XP-E R2 are available in large volume quantity and they have also R2 (and even R3) mentioned in the datasheet.
http://www.cree.com/press/press_detail.asp?i=1229608579569


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## TexLite (Jan 23, 2009)

jirik_cz said:


> Cree XP-E R2 are available in large volume quantity and they have also R2 (and even R3) mentioned in the datasheet.
> http://www.cree.com/press/press_detail.asp?i=1229608579569


 
I was referring to the XR-E,as I'm assuming its the package the poster was referring to.

It hasn't been as readily available.

-Michael


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## Marduke (Jan 23, 2009)

TexLite said:


> I was referring to the XR-E,as I'm assuming its the package the poster was referring to.
> 
> It hasn't been as readily available.
> 
> -Michael



XP-E and XR-E use the same die IIRC


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## saabluster (Jan 24, 2009)

Marduke said:


> XP-E and XR-E use the same die IIRC


He knows.


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## Bullzeyebill (Jan 24, 2009)

TexLite said:


> On a side note,anyone have some info on the V bin SSC's?I find it strange they haven't released anything considering they were producing them in significant enough numbers to appear in some lights a year or so ago.
> 
> -Michael



The current Ti Gatlight uses the V bin SSC's. Don't know how they got them, but they did.

Bill


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## Marduke (Jan 24, 2009)

Bullzeyebill said:


> The current Ti Gatlight uses the V bin SSC's. Don't know how they got them, but they did.
> 
> Bill




Well, when you only need a couple dozen of them at any price, it's not so hard. But try getting anything similar in production quantities at a production level price.


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## Bullzeyebill (Jan 24, 2009)

Marduke said:


> Well, when you only need a couple dozen of them at any price, it's not so hard. But try getting anything similar in production quantities at a production level price.



Yeah, you're right.

Bill


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## tebore (Jan 25, 2009)

TexLite said:


> On a side note,anyone have some info on the V bin SSC's?I find it strange they haven't released anything considering they were producing them in significant enough numbers to appear in some lights a year or so ago.
> 
> -Michael



The small batch of V-bins that got out was before SSC revised their binning. I bet those "V-bins" just barely meet the specs for V-bins. PhotonFanatic can't get them. MJ only had prototypes and it was a very small batch. The current U2 bin according to testing just barely meets min specs. 

I'm not saying anything conclusive but I really question if those are really V bins in Gatlights. Or they are V-bins according to when SSC made a game out of binning(1LED could have been in 2 bins, the P7 was a great example). 

I don't think we'll see V-bins until Cree gets the R2 bin out in production numbers(eg. the mean product is R2 with a low deviation) by that time the R4 should be out. The only other thing would be for SSC to refine their product a bit further, but doubt it.

Also when SSC gets a product up to production quantities they update their spec sheets to show the next upcoming bin as a possible order code. For now the spec sheets still show the V-bin as available soon.


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