# Which batteries to buy question...18650, RCR123, 14500...



## guiri (Jul 25, 2010)

Alright guys, I have more and bigger lights and I need to buy more batteries but not sure which ones to buy. Ie, which brand, type, etc.

All I know is that I need the 18650 size, 14500 and RCR123.

I have lights that take the three different kinds but want to make sure I get the best/max battery power I can get.

I've got plenty of eneloops so I don't need anything there but my D10 and Quark AA definitely ran much better on 14500's 

I also have a Zebralight SC30 which runs great on RCR123's so should I get some of those or these? http://bugoutgearusa.com/awlifepo4.html

This is all for FLASHLIGHT use so no other products need to be considered.

Linky to the batteries and prices if you don't mind and YES, I would like to support our dealers here with my purchases.

Thankyall and by the way, if there are OTHER batteries that will fit where these fit but that work better for some reason, feel free to point it out.

I'm also getting some of those ACCU brand LSD C size batteries for one of my lights (from Batteryjunction/great price).

One more thing, am I getting protected, unprotected, etc and will I lose a lot of power in protected batteries? YES, I tend to let stuff sit and drain completely as I don't have the discipline to charge stuff regularly and yes, I will have at least one or two lights in the car all the time, including the stinkin' hot NC summer (GAWD is it bad this year) 

George


----------



## TooManyGizmos (Jul 25, 2010)

~

Half the replies you get will say to buy AW's .

There are battery comparison threads you could study .

What cells have you been using since Feb. 2007 when you joined us ?

No 18650's , RCR's or 14500's in your past ?

~


----------



## mdocod (Jul 25, 2010)

AW brand is the standard recomendation. Pretty good track record, respectable capacity and reliability overall. 

Best to stick with protected lithium cobalt cells for most applications (that would be AWs black label protected cells).

Wolf-Eyes, Pila, and EagleTac also carry some/all of these cell sizes. They should all be of reasonable quality and reliability. 

Just as important as picking decent cells, is picking a decent charger, or, if you are using one with flaws, to know the flaws so that you can intervene to correct for them as often as possible... You might have a glance at this thread. 

I like the Pila IBC the best for charging cell sizes from RCR123 up to 18650s. I'll be testing the new Xtar 6 bay charger as soon as it arrives, (ordered it almost a week ago and haven't seen it or received any shipping confirmation so I'm not sure what's going on there). 

Try to make a habit of topping them off more often than not. With some lights, you will have little to no warning before the protection trips and you are in the dark. 

Eric


----------



## guiri (Jul 25, 2010)

Alright, let's see if I can answer all questions in here.

First, I have a couple of Ultrafire 18650's which I bought when I got some DX lights. So far, I'm happy with them.

Got some cheapo rechargeable 123's and not sure what the deal is but I'm not very impressed with them and I think the reason I got rid of my EX10 and stuck with my D10 that I run on eneloops.

Just FYI, I want to avoid primaries like the plague. I HATE the throwing away of regular batteries and in my opinion, they should be outlawed for the amount of waste they create but that's another story.

I bought a Quark Ti AA here and on deciding whether to get that one or an RA I think it was, I went with the Quark when I found out how many lumens it would give me with a 14500 which the seller provide (Ultrafire I think). Love the output with the 14500 so I want more of those for my D10 and the Quark.

I have several lights that take 18650s including a DX light I like a lot, the G5 I just got and other stuff I'll be getting, I'm sure.

As for reading comparisons, my brain shuts down after the first 15 seconds or so of reading so that's completely pointless. It's kinda like people giving me driving directions. Nope, there's a reason I got a GPS. I can get lost in buildings and if anyone has read my posts, you'll know that the first thing I say is keep it simple. I simply can't handle written instructions any longer 

I think all that sex I had when I was a young'un somehow messed up my brain...

Yeah, I figured AW's would get the nod as that's all I read here so I expected that but then there are different AW options such as protected, more or less capacity, flat tops, LiFePO4 and all that.

Also, I have the LaCrosse 900 or 909 charger or something (http://www.lacrossetechnology.com/900/index.php looks like this but not sure where it's at right now) and was going to get the Powerex MH-C808M for the bigger batteries and when I want to charge more than one at a time and the Xtar charger seems intriguing too.

From what I understand, that should cover most of my needs for chargers. 

I do plan on one day getting better charging discipline but my problem now is that my house a mess and need to get myself organized and put up some kind of charging station/shelf to keep all of this in ONE place and to remind myself to do it rather than having all my stuff in a drawer that I don't see.

Heard good things about the Pila but then, I had the Lacrosse already.

Also, I'm too damn stupid to do fancy stuff with the charger so I would just cram batteries in it, plug it in and that's it.

So, no problems just topping batteries off? I mean, no memory problem or anything as long as they are Ni-Mh's and Li-ion's, right?

Will the powerex charge my eneloops.

Will anything BUT the Xtar (of the three) charge my Li-ion's? I have SINGLE li ion chargers but that's a bit of a pain at times.

Oh, and I might sell around 100 eneloops or more in AA and possibly AAA size (most of them used ONCE) if anyone's interested.

Thanks

George


----------



## Monocrom (Jul 25, 2010)

Yup . . . AW, Pila, Wolf-Eyes.

As far as Ultrafire goes, you got lucky with the ones you bought. The only consistent thing with Ultrafire cells is their horrible inconsistency. Some work fine, some won't charge at all, some lose their charge almost instantly, some will only charge once . . . If someone told me a white mouse jumped out of their Ultrafire cell, and started tap dancing while whistling Dixie; I'd believe them. That's how inconsistent and unpredictable Ultrafire cells are.


----------



## guiri (Jul 25, 2010)

Damn! I'd love to see that video 

Well, kinda the reason I asked. I figured if they sell on all the china sites, maybe I should consider something else. Again, not to knock'em but I had to look around before I spent my dads hard earned money.


----------



## mdocod (Jul 25, 2010)

Hi George, 

NIMH/NICD chargers do not charge li-ion cells. 

You want AW protected black label lithium-ion (lithium cobalt) cells. Not LiFePO4 or LiMn (IMR) or anything else.

You'll find that while RCR123 and 14500 cells are both rated 750mAH, the RCR123s are actually closer to 550mAH, while the 14500 lives up the label claim much better. For small li-ion powered lights, 14500>RCR123. 

The Xtar may very well be the best charger for you, the 6 bay capacity will probably suit your needs quite well. Sounds like you will be developing quite a collection in time anyways. You'll need some 15mm and 30mm dummy spacers to charge shorter cells. 

Eric


----------



## guiri (Jul 25, 2010)

Yeah, shame about the capacity of the RCR's but hell, if I have to give that up in order NOT to have to throw stuff away, so be it.

Too bad they can't figure out how to make one of those chargers with the sliding holders that doesn't break. I really like that solution.

That's quite a lot of spacers to buy if I want to use everything at one time...hmm. I may have to stick to my single cell chargers after all (sliding thingie) 

Yes, the collection is turning coming along nicely although I have several lights I'll be selling off, including a couple I can't find but I'm set to inventory and pack up everything in the house so unless someone swiped them, they should be here somewhere.

Hell, I have a nitecore extreme that I have a buyer for but I can't find it


----------



## guiri (Jul 25, 2010)

So, this is what I want then?

- Protected 18650 ( 2200mAH ) ---- $12.00 each

- Protected 14500 ( 750 mAH ) ----- $ 9.00 each 

- Protected R123A ( 750 mAH ) ----- $ 6.00 each


So, what's the deal with the other sizes? Where do they go?

- Protected 18500 ( 1500mAH ) ---- $10.00 each 
- Protected 17670 ( 1600mAH ) ---- $10.00 each 
- Protected 17500 ( 1100mAH ) ---- $10.00 each 
- Protected 14670 ( 1100mAH ) ---- $10.00 each


----------



## KiwiMark (Jul 25, 2010)

guiri said:


> So, this is what I want then?
> 
> - Protected 18650 ( 2200mAH ) ---- $12.00 each
> 
> ...




I have several of each of them - they are good reliable cells, they'll work great for the lights that fit them.



guiri said:


> So, what's the deal with the other sizes? Where do they go?
> 
> - Protected 18500 ( 1500mAH ) ---- $10.00 each
> - Protected 17670 ( 1600mAH ) ---- $10.00 each
> ...



Yeah, those ones are much less common.
18650 are 18mm dia, 65mm long, cylindrical cells.
18500 are 18mm dia, 50mm long, cylindrical cells. A shorter cell for lights that can't fit the longer ones.
17500 are 17mm dia, 50mm long, cylindrical cells. A skinnier version of the above cell.

I'm not actually sure what these other sizes fits, but if you had something that needed that size cell then I'm sure you would know it.


----------



## mdocod (Jul 25, 2010)

I'd be tempted to see if the lights you are using will work with the new 2600mAH cell. The 2200mAH cells are closer to 2AH in most tests, while the 2600mAH cell has tested pretty close to label ratings. 

If your flashlights might not work with the flat top design of the 2600 cell, then check out the eagletac 2400mAH 18650s. 

----

Assuming that the drive voltages are appropriate here are some common applications for these other cells...

18500s are commonly used in 2x18500 hosts, which are convenient for folks who want backwards compatibility with dropping in 3xCR123s and having similar operating voltage.

17500s are the same length as the 18500, but smaller diameter, will fit in most surefire bodies. For use in many 3xCR123 lights that won't fit the larger diameter 18500 cell. There are many custom configurations out there that use these in 3-abreast stacks for modded flashlights. 

The 17670 is for lights that are the length of 2xCR123/1x18650 but aren't bored to fit the 18mm diameter cell. 2x17670 fits in a 4xCR123 body like the SureFire M4. Also used in 3 abreast stacks for various modified flashlights.

14670, often used 3 abreast in modded mags and such where no boring is desired. Also, some E series surefire bodies are too tight to fit even the 17670, so folks will sometimes step down to the 14670 to get a rechargeable solution. 

Truth is, that's probably just the tip of the iceburg. In fact, most of these cell sizes (with the exception of the RCR123) actually originated in other products. Like camcorders, point and shoot cameras, laptops, and other consumer electronics. 

Eric


----------



## guiri (Jul 25, 2010)

Thanks, so are the eagletacs protected and which choice is better, the 2200 or 2400?


----------



## vudoo (Jul 25, 2010)

My advice is to save and get the best stuff e.g. AW cells and a Pila battery charger.

I started getting some of the cheaper stuff but the cells failed, charger needing monitoring to see it didn't charge above 4.15 volts etc...it was better off getting quality gear from the start.


----------



## guiri (Jul 25, 2010)

Good advice but I know I won't be monitoring anything. I'll forget or I won't be able to figure out how to do it, etc, etc. Best batteries, yes, not sure about the Pila though. I'd have to get rid of the lacrosse then


----------



## mdocod (Jul 25, 2010)

If you know you won't be monitoring the charge, then you would be best served in the long run by a charger that properly charges and properly terminates the charge. I've only tested one charger to date (there may be others out there) that does this properly, and that is the Pila IBC. If the Xtar does this, then that may prove to be the more appropriate direction to go. 

If I had to choose between an AW 2200mAH 18650 and an EagleTac 2400mAH cell, I'd go for the EagleTac. More true tested capacity, reputable company, and a lower price. 

Eric


----------



## ti-force (Jul 25, 2010)

mdocod said:


> If you know you won't be monitoring the charge, then you would be best served in the long run by a charger that properly charges and properly terminates the charge. I've only tested one charger to date (there may be others out there) that does this properly, and that is the Pila IBC. If the Xtar does this, then that may prove to be the more appropriate direction to go.
> 
> If I had to choose between an AW 2200mAH 18650 and an EagleTac 2400mAH cell, I'd go for the EagleTac. More true tested capacity, reputable company, and a lower price.
> 
> Eric



Eric,

You really know your stuff :candle: . Hey, didn't I read in another thread that you're testing the Xtar charger? If so, how is looking?

Casey


----------



## mdocod (Jul 25, 2010)

ti-force said:


> Eric,
> 
> You really know your stuff :candle: . Hey, didn't I read in another thread that you're testing the Xtar charger? If so, how is looking?
> 
> Casey



Hi Casey,

Thank You!

I ordered the Xtar about a week ago, hasn't shown up yet 

-Eric


----------



## ti-force (Jul 25, 2010)

LOL..... I know how that goes. I'll keep an eye on your thread:thumbsup:. BTW, thanks for taking the time, and sharing your knowledge on these things.


----------



## Monocrom (Jul 25, 2010)

mdocod said:


> If I had to choose between an AW 2200mAH 18650 and an EagleTac 2400mAH cell, I'd go for the EagleTac. More true tested capacity, reputable company, and a lower price.
> 
> Eric


 
Reputable??

Sorry Eric, but I still remember the less than reputable way Eagletac came on the scene. And the less than reputable way they continued afterwards. Not trying to hijack the thread, so I won't go into details. But I'd rather go with AW over Eagletac any day of the week.


----------



## guiri (Jul 25, 2010)

Well, I am interested in their reputation and I DID start the thread so hijack away 

So, Eric, buy more chargers then? Damn! I was hoping to avoid it. Not just for the money but I have the house full of stuff... 

Thanks


----------



## mdocod (Jul 25, 2010)

Monocrom said:


> Reputable??
> 
> Sorry Eric, but I still remember the less than reputable way Eagletac came on the scene. And the less than reputable way they continued afterwards. Not trying to hijack the thread, so I won't go into details. But I'd rather go with AW over Eagletac any day of the week.



I must have missed this part of the history, If there is something I need to know about them that is legitimate, then by all means, point me with a link to where the reading begins.... Seemed to me like they picked up on the pulse of CPF and built a bunch of the missing configurations and sold them. You're sparked my curiosity. 

Eric


----------



## mdocod (Jul 25, 2010)

guiri said:


> So, Eric, buy more chargers then? Damn! I was hoping to avoid it. Not just for the money but I have the house full of stuff...
> 
> Thanks



You have some nice NIMH chargers, but you can't use those to charge li-ion cells, it won't work. 

The single bay li-ion charger that you already have.... Will it fit an 18650 cell? Will it terminate correctly? 

Eric


----------



## guiri (Jul 26, 2010)

Terminate? Dude, the only terminate thing I know is the one the governor of California used to do. Sorry but I doubt it terminates whatever that is..

So, the Pila then or the Xtar, right?

Well, at least we're getting somewhere


----------



## vudoo (Jul 26, 2010)

guiri said:


> Well, I am interested in their reputation and I DID start the thread so hijack away
> 
> So, Eric, buy more chargers then? Damn! I was hoping to avoid it. Not just for the money but I have the house full of stuff...
> 
> Thanks


 
The other option you have and to limit the number of chargers you need is to go for a hobby charger that can do LiPo, LiIon, NiMh, NiCa, PB etc...

Just have that one charger which can do it all and all you will need is to get cradles for each type of battery you want to charge.


----------



## KiwiMark (Jul 26, 2010)

vudoo said:


> The other option you have and to limit the number of chargers you need is to go for a hobby charger that can do LiPo, LiIon, NiMh, NiCa, PB etc...
> 
> Just have that one charger which can do it all and all you will need is to get cradles for each type of battery you want to charge.



Or just get leads with magnets:
https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/241266

Then a hobby charger can charge any size quite easily - I charge 10440 cells and 32650 cells and sizes in between. I can charge from 1 cell to 8 cells. I can charge my 10440 cells at 0.1A and my 32650 cells at 2.5A. There is a lot of flexibility with that sort of charger. The other good thing is that they charge with the proper CC/CV algorithm that terminates correctly with no trickle charge.


----------



## vudoo (Jul 26, 2010)

That's a really great suggestion and link kiwiMark, as long as you have enough leads your charging possibilities are endless


----------



## mdocod (Jul 26, 2010)

I get the feeling that George would prefer not to complicate things any more than necessary. Hobby chargers found predominantly in the radio controlled arena are really awesome for flexibility and in the hands of a guru can really take care of business, but they require an in depth understanding of charging requirements, circuits, etc.


----------



## Monocrom (Jul 26, 2010)

Since both of you wanted to know more, I'll point out the three things that have left a bad taste in my mouth regarding Eagletac.

When the company first made their presence known on CPF, they did so by saying that 5 highly respected CPF dealers carried their line of lights. Turns out, only one of them did. Two were simply in talks with the company regarding carrying their products. And the other two never heard of Eagletac at the time. Also was the company's advertising when they first arrived. They claimed that their line of lights were used and trusted by professionals the world over.

One problem with that . . . Eagletac at the time was a completely brand new company. Now, how exactly do you earn a reputation like that when your company is brand spanking new? 

I gave Eagletac a 2nd chance because other Regulars on CPF were doing that. Bought a P10A. Must admit, it's a great product. Imagine a SureFire E1B but with a better U.I. and running off of a single AA cell, with a better clip. (And brighter too.) But then Eagletac decided to muddy the waters by claiming to be an American company. Personally, if a light is an excellent design, I don't care if it's Made in America or China. I've noticed a lot of CPFers share that view.

Eagletac claimed their headquarters were in America. Now, I'm sure that if you asked nicely; SureFire might let you tour their plant. Even if they don't, you can fly down there and check out the outside of their plant right here in America. You can't do that with Eagletac because the address they gave for their American headquarters turned out to be the private house of an employee.

Sorry guys, but that did it for me. It's a personal thing. I don't agree with every business decision that the other flashlight companies make. And yes, a few respected CPFers have stood up for the individuals running Eagletac. That's very much true. But I gave the company a 2nd chance, and they blew it. But that's just the way I see it based on their above-mentioned mistakes, errors in judgement, or business decisions.

AW on the other hand, nothing but good things since that first batch of rechargeables were offered for sale to the community. Got to go with consistency.


----------



## mdocod (Jul 26, 2010)

Thank you very much for sharing that Monocrom,

I'm not a big fan of the false claims made at start-up. Doesn't sound good to me. That is a legitimate issue to take into consideration.

With that type of behavior, perhaps when they claimed that their 2400mAH cell was built to the same specifications as a top major name brand, (I think they said Samsung, but can't recall right now), we may need to toss a bit more salt on that one.

The fuzzy headquarters in the US doesn't bother me as much. The company may only have a handful of employees anyways, if some of the business dealings take place from within that house then the claim is not a complete lie, it's more like one of those "not the whole truth" type deals. Considering how many companies set up their headquarters in one state for tax benefits, and then do most of their business everywhere else, I just don't see a major problem on that front.

Eric


----------



## vudoo (Jul 26, 2010)

In that case, George I recommend you stick with lights that only use 18650 batteries or RCR123. Save a bit more money or sell some of your eneloops and get a good set of batteries and a 18650 battery charger that you know terminates at 4.15-4.20 volts. With spacers you can also use it to charge RCR123's. A good charger will allow you to pop in the battery and once it hits green take it out without the worry of it overcharging. Simple...

If you really like your AA lights, keep the eneloops and get a seperate charger specifically designed for them.

With these two combinations you will have batteries and chargers for the majority of lights. 




mdocod said:


> I get the feeling that George would prefer not to complicate things any more than necessary. Hobby chargers found predominantly in the radio controlled arena are really awesome for flexibility and in the hands of a guru can really take care of business, but they require an in depth understanding of charging requirements, circuits, etc.


----------



## Monocrom (Jul 26, 2010)

mdocod said:


> . . . perhaps when they claimed that their 2400mAH cell was built to the same specifications as a top major name brand, (I think they said Samsung, but can't recall right now), we may need to toss a bit more salt on that one.
> 
> The fuzzy headquarters in the US doesn't bother me as much. The company may only have a handful of employees anyways, if some of the business dealings take place from within that house then the claim is not a complete lie, it's more like one of those "not the whole truth" type deals. Considering how many companies set up their headquarters in one state for tax benefits, and then do most of their business everywhere else, I just don't see a major problem on that front.
> 
> Eric


 
The above mentioned reasons is why I haven't placed Eagletac's line of rechargeables in the same class as AW, Pila, and Wolf-Eyes. None of those companies have gone through the same issues as Eagletac. When it comes to those types of rechargeables, I just feel better going with brands that have a completely rock solid reputation.

What's in a name? . . . Everything! (Would I have bought two battery magazines that allowed me to convert my M6 into a rechargeable light if the magazines were designed by someone other than you? Yes! If they were designed by FiveMega. A random CPFer having designed them? Heck no!)

As for the address issue, I recall Eagletac didn't do a good job of setting the record straight. Had they just pointed out why the address was that of a private house, it would have saved everyone quite a bit of grief. You raised an excellent point. And perhaps that was indeed the very reason. But Eagletac didn't do a good job of explaining the situation when another highly respected CPFer pointed out that it was a private house.


----------



## guiri (Jul 26, 2010)

mdocod said:


> I get the feeling that George would prefer not to complicate things any more than necessary.



You have paid attention and you have understood the problem. A gold star for you :thumbsup:


----------



## guiri (Jul 26, 2010)

vudoo said:


> In that case, George I recommend you stick with lights that only use 18650 batteries or RCR123. Save a bit more money or sell some of your eneloops and get a good set of batteries and a 18650 battery charger that you know terminates at 4.15-4.20 volts. With spacers you can also use it to charge RCR123's. A good charger will allow you to pop in the battery and once it hits green take it out without the worry of it overcharging. Simple...
> 
> If you really like your AA lights, keep the eneloops and get a seperate charger specifically designed for them.
> 
> With these two combinations you will have batteries and chargers for the majority of lights.




Well, right now, the money is not really the issue, I just don't want to have to buy say RCR's and then two months later someone says, buy Lipo's or whatever. I'd like to get it right the first time, buy me some batteries and then be ready to go and as you know, chances are that between the RCR123 format, AA's and 18650's, I'll cover most current and possibly future purchases.

Now, my memory sucks and I'm already into this message and not wanting to start over again but was the consensus that I stay away from the AW lipo's in 123 format?

Also, what's the final word, Xtar or Pila for my Li ions?

Does anyone know how long for AW to deliver to the US? I may be demoing some lights for some of my local cops and YES, I may actually be selling some if they're interested. Poor guys are stuck with their maglites and buying from the cop catalogs at stupid prices and as some of you know, very limited selection on some things. I showed my TK40 an hour ago to one of the local cops and he damn near $hit himself 

As always, thanks for the replies and help just in case I forget to say so


----------



## guiri (Jul 26, 2010)

KiwiMark said:


> Or just get leads with magnets:
> https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/241266
> 
> Then a hobby charger can charge any size quite easily - I charge 10440 cells and 32650 cells and sizes in between. I can charge from 1 cell to 8 cells. I can charge my 10440 cells at 0.1A and my 32650 cells at 2.5A. There is a lot of flexibility with that sort of charger. The other good thing is that they charge with the proper CC/CV algorithm that terminates correctly with no trickle charge.



That sounds like me. Always pimpin' stuff to try to get something that's generally not available but the problem is, although I can hook all that up, I wouldn't know WHY to use a hobby charger, what the deal is with the proper charging amperage, voltage, etc and therein lies my problem. I'm to friggen stupid to keep all that in my head. I need plug 'n play chargers. In and out so to speak.

By the way, check the last post in that thread, I had an idea when I read one of the posts and posted an idea. Not sure if it's feasible but if so, I'm proud of myself


----------



## KiwiMark (Jul 26, 2010)

guiri said:


> That sounds like me. Always pimpin' stuff to try to get something that's generally not available but the problem is, although I can hook all that up, I wouldn't know WHY to use a hobby charger, what the deal is with the proper charging amperage, voltage, etc and therein lies my problem. I'm to friggen stupid to keep all that in my head. I need plug 'n play chargers. In and out so to speak.
> 
> By the way, check the last post in that thread, I had an idea when I read one of the posts and posted an idea.



It is possible to solder to magnets with no noticeable loss of magnetism - I'm not good enough with a soldering iron to do it, but I paid Lux some money and he sent me some leads soldered to magnets - problem solved.

Charging with a hobby charger:
Voltage - no worries, it works that out.
All you do is select the kind of charge - NiMH, LiIo, Lipo, LiFe or whatever.
Then you select the Amps - I just go with 1/2 C for pretty much all my cells. C = capacity so half that and drop the 'h' off the end and that is your answer. 2200mAh cells => 1100mA charge rate (1.1A), 5000mAh cells => 2.5A charge, 800mAh => 0.4A, etc. It doesn't have to be exact though, you could charge your 2200mAh cells at 1A, it would be close enough.

It really isn't that hard and for me it is really easy. Sometimes I think that mathematics is a second language for me, other times I think that mathematics is a first language and English is a second language. But I would think that most people would quickly get the hang of setting the charge rate for the battery they are charging. When I used to race RC cars most of the guys managed to recharge their NiCd battery packs without a problem.


----------



## guiri (Jul 26, 2010)

Well hell, I can do that so how much for a good (NOT stupidly expensive) hobby charger (linky please) and is there a limit to how many batteries you can do at one time.

Yeah, it looks ghetto but then, not having to do more than one charger WOULD be sweet. Of course, then there's the option of buying battery holders or something to make this simpler, right, or not possible?


----------



## Monocrom (Jul 27, 2010)

You can get AW cells right here in America, by ordering from Lighthound.com


----------



## KiwiMark (Jul 27, 2010)

guiri said:


> Well hell, I can do that so how much for a good (NOT stupidly expensive) hobby charger (linky please) and is there a limit to how many batteries you can do at one time.
> 
> Yeah, it looks ghetto but then, not having to do more than one charger WOULD be sweet. Of course, then there's the option of buying battery holders or something to make this simpler, right, or not possible?



The big problem with battery holders is that you need different sizes for different cells, if you get some magnets sorted (done quick so that exposure to high heat is short or talk nicely to Lux) then you are good for any size.

All Hobby chargers will have a limit on how many batteries they can do at once and they can only do multiple cells if they are the same sort of cells at the same level of charge. So you can pull 4 x AA out of a device and charge them all at once, but you can't take some AA cells from one device and an 18650 cell out of another device and charge them at the same time (unless you buy 2 hobby chargers).

I have these:
http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/uh_viewItem.asp?idProduct=7028
It can charge up to 6 cells at once and at up to 6A charge rate (but not exceeding 50W)

I also have one of these:
http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/uh_viewItem.asp?idProduct=7523

It can charge up to 8 cells at once and up to 7A charge rate (but not exceeding 150W). I'd suggest paying the extra because it has a few extra features and you can drain a cell at 5A for testing capacity (the cheaper one only drains at 1A).

Both of these are designed to run from 12V so I use an old computer ATX power supply. If you short the green wire to the black wire on the motherboard connector then it should turn on, then use the yellow wire from any molex connector and any black wire for 12V DC power.

There are some hobby chargers that come with the ability to run from mains power or you can buy 12V DC power supplies from the places that sell hobby chargers. But an old computer PSU happily runs both my hobby chargers at the same time.

Charging NiMH or NiCd cells doesn't require balancing leads - I just use some small magnets between each cell to hold them together.

Charging Li-ion cells more than one at a time should be done with balancing leads. I have discovered that you can use a lead for 8 cells (9 wires) to charge any number of cells up to 8 by using some wires and keeping the other wires out of the way (and not touching each other). I often just charge a single cell with my hobby chargers - quite a lot of my lights are single cell. It is really easy to hook up one cell and set the charger going.


----------



## TooManyGizmos (Jul 27, 2010)

~

and he won't find all that ............ complicated ? 

~


----------



## guiri (Jul 27, 2010)

:mecry:


 :fail:


:sigh: :green:


:thinking: 

:sick2: 

:sweat: :help:

:eeksign:

 :huh2:

:hairpull: Any questions... :shakehead


----------



## TooManyGizmos (Jul 27, 2010)

~

I guess he answered MY question !

~


----------



## guiri (Jul 27, 2010)

You think?


----------



## guiri (Jul 27, 2010)

So, gotta pull the trigger so here are the questions.

Protected Eagletecs at 2400
Protected AW's at 2200
Unprotected AW's at 2600?

So far I have the G5, TA21 and a DX light that take 18650s...protected or not?

Thankya

ALso, best price on the Pila?

THanks


----------



## vudoo (Jul 27, 2010)

Go protected batteries, its safer.

Why don't you buy a set of each battery to try? At the end of the day you need to make the final decision. We can only guide you so much...


----------



## mdocod (Jul 27, 2010)

The decision on which 18650 cell to go for should probably be made based on whether or not your 18650 compatible flashlights are going to support the non-buton-top cell or not. Either inspect the way your lights make electrical contact on the positive end, or do a search on the forum to make the connection. Either way, the best route is probably the AW 2600 cell, but if it doesn't work in some of your flashlights, then that would be a disappointment....

In most cases, the only lights it won't work in, are those that use physical reverse polarity protection. 

The *protected* 2600mAH AWs are probably the best route...

(I don't think he sells hid 2600 cell in an unprotected form). 

Eric


----------



## guiri (Jul 27, 2010)

I didn't think there were protected ones in 2600 and if so, those make more sense don't they?
I mean, protected and more juice?


----------



## mdocod (Jul 27, 2010)

AW brand protected 2600mAH cell


----------



## ti-force (Jul 27, 2010)

guiri said:


> I didn't think there were protected ones in 2600 and if so, those make more sense don't they?
> I mean, protected and more juice?



Don't forget what's already been mentioned about the AW 2600mAh 18650. It has a non-button top (flat top), so chances are it probably won't function correctly in your G5 (my AW 2600mAh 18650 wouldn't work in the prototype G5 I tested).


----------



## guiri (Jul 28, 2010)

Yeah, that's what I was trying to clarify. If I want a button top, I can't have the 2600, right and then next step down are the 2200's?


----------



## guiri (Jul 28, 2010)

Basically I need these, right?

http://www.lighthound.com/AW-14500-Protected-Rechargeable-Lithium-Battery_p_96.html

http://www.lighthound.com/AW-18650-Protected-2200-mAh-Rechargeable-Lithium-Battery_p_105.html

http://www.lighthound.com/AW-RCR123a-Protected-750-mAh-Battery_p_114.html

George


----------



## guiri (Jul 28, 2010)

vudoo said:


> Go protected batteries, its safer.
> 
> Why don't you buy a set of each battery to try? At the end of the day you need to make the final decision. We can only guide you so much...



Nah, you're right and the decision is not the problem, I'm trying to figure this stuff out and what's what and which ones are the best and such.

What do you mean, a set of each?

Hell, I'm just gonna find the best and most powerful recommended battery and just buy a few of each but as you can see, the confusion was also with the button or flat top and of course, I dont' want to buy batteries than may or may not work with current or future lights which SUCKS 'cause I'm giving up a little capacity.

THanks

George


----------



## ti-force (Jul 28, 2010)

guiri said:


> Yeah, that's what I was trying to clarify. If I want a button top, I can't have the 2600, right and then next step down are the 2200's?



Affirmative as of this writing -

AW2600 mAh protected Li-ion = non-button top cell.

AW2200 mAh protected Li-ion = button top cell.


----------



## TooManyGizmos (Jul 28, 2010)

~

That looks right to me George .

Button tops prevent disappointment .

Have you also studied AW's battery sales thread in the MarketPlace.

~


----------



## Monocrom (Jul 28, 2010)

When in doubt, go with AW 2200 mAh.


----------



## guiri (Jul 28, 2010)

Gizmos, yeah I did but I figured why not go with someone local instead and support the dealers. Prices seem to be the same to why not, right?


----------



## march.brown (Jul 28, 2010)

Monocrom said:


> Yup . . . AW, Pila, Wolf-Eyes.
> 
> As far as Ultrafire goes, you got lucky with the ones you bought. The only consistent thing with Ultrafire cells is their horrible inconsistency. Some work fine, some won't charge at all, some lose their charge almost instantly, some will only charge once . . . If someone told me a white mouse jumped out of their Ultrafire cell, and started tap dancing while whistling Dixie; I'd believe them. That's how inconsistent and unpredictable Ultrafire cells are.


 I only have six Ultrafire 18650 grey protected cells and two Ultrafire 18650 blue unprotected cells ... They have performed perfectly and as far as I am concerned , I will replace them with the same make of cells when they die ... They seem to hold their charge for several months and that is all I can ask of them ... They power my three Solarforce torches on high for two and a half hours continuously when needed and I am happy with that ... I don't treat them carefully in that I store them fully charged and I will just accept that they will die a few months earlier than the ultra-expensive cells.

In future , I will buy the protected ones though I have not had any problems with the unprotected ones ... The protected ones are only a few pennies more than the unprotected ones.

I can see no reason to buy any other make of 18650s.
.


----------



## Monocrom (Jul 28, 2010)

march.brown said:


> I can see no reason to buy any other make of 18650s.
> .


 
Oh you will. 

Lady Luck has so far been on your side. Might consider heading on over to Vegas while she's still smiling at you. Ultrafires are a gamble. Plain & simple. Don't take my word for it. Check out the vastly negative experiences that more than a few other CPFers have experienced with them.


----------



## pae77 (Jul 28, 2010)

The red and black Trustfire protected "true" 2400 18650's available at DX for <$10 a pair seem to have received generally favorable reviews by various CPF members. Based on that, I recently purchased a pair and have been highly satisfied with the way they are performing so far. I also have some protected Trustfire 14500's that I am pleased with.


----------



## mdocod (Jul 29, 2010)

Yea, that would be a simple way to make sure that all of your cells fit and make contact in lights while minimizing the likelihood of having one that doesn't work or fit. 

None of us can give you "the final word" on what to buy. You'll have to come to that conclusion yourself. -Sorry

Eric


----------



## guiri (Jul 29, 2010)

Thanks Eric but I think I just did 

Thanks all

George


----------



## guiri (Aug 14, 2010)

Alright boys, I got the batteries and I wound up going with AW as it was around 20-25 bucks cheaper. Got 6x18650's and 4 each of the RCR123 and 14500's so I'm good for now.

Now, to the Li-Ion charger. Mdocod, did you ever get that Xtar charger and did you try it? 

Since some of you guys here HAVE understood how dense I am, what's the final verdict? The Xtar or the Pila?

I think my man Flavio sells the Pila and after the service I got from him after fatfingering the hell outta my III M I got from him, there's no doubt in my mind where I"m gonna get it from.

Alright people, I'm waiting here...


----------



## Black Rose (Aug 14, 2010)

guiri said:


> Now, to the Li-Ion charger. Mdocod, did you ever get that Xtar charger and did you try it?
> 
> Since some of you guys here HAVE understood how dense I am, what's the final verdict? The Xtar or the Pila?


Here is the thread where he does an initial set of tests:
https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/229923&page=8

Start at post 213. He gives it a passing grade so far (post 229).

I personally would wait a bit longer for more comprehensive test results to come out before deciding which charger to go with.
The Pila IBC is still the best consumer cradle style charger around.


----------



## guiri (Aug 14, 2010)

Thanks


----------



## TooManyGizmos (Aug 14, 2010)

~

guiri ,

I .....and many of us ..... would say ..... BUY BOTH !

In the CPF tradition !

~


----------



## guiri (Aug 14, 2010)

You and many of you need a good whackin' on the head...what part of I'm trying to get away with as LITTLE stuff as possible didn't you understand?

I've got TOO MUCH STUFF! You know, TOO MANY GIZMOS! 

Seriously, I'm dyin' to lighten my load a little and the intention is to sell a lot of stuff although as lazy as I am, I don't see it happenin' but that IS the idea...


----------



## Monocrom (Aug 14, 2010)

You bought the best rechargeable brand cells.

Dude, get the Pila IBC charger. It's a no-brainer.


----------



## TooManyGizmos (Aug 14, 2010)

~

Sorry ..... I can't get out of the TOO MANY GIZMOS habbit !

You need more chargers .... cause you already got too many batteries ... for just 1 charger .


----------



## Monocrom (Aug 14, 2010)

A back-up charger is always a good idea.


----------



## TooManyGizmos (Aug 14, 2010)

guiri said:


> You and many of you need a good whackin' on the head...what part of I'm trying to get away with as LITTLE stuff as possible didn't you understand?
> 
> I've got TOO MUCH STUFF! You know, TOO MANY GIZMOS!
> 
> Seriously, I'm dyin' to lighten my load a little and the intention is to sell a lot of stuff although as lazy as I am, I don't see it happenin' but that IS the idea...





You don't seem to understand the AGE OLD ..... CPF tradition !


And "He who dies with the most toys" thing .

If you sell most of your lights ..... you'll be sorry later. and be on B/S/T.
~


----------



## TooManyGizmos (Aug 14, 2010)

~

All you need is .... Shelter , Food and Flashlights,Batteries and chargers !

~:twothumbs


----------



## guiri (Aug 14, 2010)

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I know all this and I DO agree with all of it but dammit, I have so much $hit in my house, I can't farkin' find it and that's not a joke.

I have a buyer for my nitecore extreme and I can't find it.

I can't find my quark Ti AA and it's one of my favorite lights 

I have a radio shack charger with 8 bays and no idea where it's at.

I just both a wolf eyes boxer and I cant' find the damn charger so I can sell this thing.

Do you want me to continue 'cause I'd be happy to...

I have double and triple of lots of stuff including computers, printers and scanners and again, let's not count lights.

I have around 30TB of computer storage in my house and so on...yeah, I know exactly what you mean and I agree but dammit, I CAN'T FIND STUFF!


----------



## guiri (Aug 14, 2010)

TooManyGizmos said:


> ~
> 
> All you need is .... Shelter , Food and Flashlights,Batteries and chargers !
> 
> ~:twothumbs




...and a REALLY fat woman to keep you warm, or eat...whichever is needed most..


----------



## TooManyGizmos (Aug 14, 2010)

~

OK then ............

Seems you need to stop what you're doing ..........

And buy a computer software INVENTORY program . (with a Bar-code scanner ! )

Thats all I can add ............. sorry .

~


----------



## guiri (Aug 14, 2010)

Nah, here's what I need to do and I've done it once before. Slick as hell once you've done it.

I moved once and got all I needed moving boxes and unlike the boxes here, they came with holes for the hands, you know, handles. These were double walled and super strong. 

I had two friends help me pack. I pulled stuff out, gave it to one that packed it and the second one wrote it all down. This was around 1986, before computers were common. I then entered it into my digital diary (early pda) and made it all searchable. EVERYTHING in the boxes was listed and in which box it was.

IF I pulled something out, I removed it from the database and if I put something back in, I put it back in AND, it could be in ANY box, didn't matter.

Slick as snot but A LOT OF WORK, and especially if you do it by yourself. You're talking hundreds of hours...

Also, I have MUCH more stuff today.

I even bought plastic bins/tubs for this purpose as yall don't have those boxes here in the US and I decided plastic was better as mice don't get in it and water wont' hurt'em. I also found'em cheap.

Well, was gonna buy around 75 of them but some fools at wal mart gave me some $hitty advice and I didn't get enough. I should NOT listen to other people dammit! Now they can't get those and the ones they have are not as nice.

By the way, they were transparent too


----------



## Monocrom (Aug 14, 2010)

Get you a maid.


----------



## TooManyGizmos (Aug 14, 2010)

~

Seems you have surpassed ME now !

Do you want me to relinquish my CPF title of "TooManyGizmos" ... over to YOU !

It seems I won't be dying with the most TOYS !

~


----------



## guiri (Aug 14, 2010)

Monocrom said:


> Get you a maid.



Tried that. Do you want the horror stories I have to tell about that too?

I kid you not...last one I hired, attempted to get here THREE times and cancelled because something happened.

The one before that still owes me $500 

A dude I had that did a good job but never showed up still owes me money and I had to threaten with the cops to get him out

The one before those, decided to divorce her husband, go live with another dude that wound up getting cancer so she quit

DO I really need to continue and NO, I'm NOT making this up and this is all verifiable


----------



## guiri (Aug 14, 2010)

TooManyGizmos said:


> ~
> 
> Seems you have surpassed ME now !
> 
> ...



Not to try to take your title away from you but if all you have is a bunch of lights, then, I think you're far off from what I have. I literally have friends calling ME before they buy something to see if I have it...

Had I not needed money last year and had to sell it, I would still have around 12-15k worth of camera equipment. For those who know, I had two D3's... and man, I miss'em :sigh:


----------



## TooManyGizmos (Aug 14, 2010)

~

Ha ...guiri .

I did the same as you , with the boxes .
Office Depot box's and the clear tubs which are great !

Once you have them all labeled and catagorized .......

Then all you need is the FAT woman to feed you and remind you where all your stuff is !

You are just like the rest of us ....... calm down !

~


----------



## guiri (Aug 14, 2010)

I am calm! Why, do I not seem calm? 

Yeah, I long back to the labeled boxes days... :mecry:


----------



## TooManyGizmos (Aug 14, 2010)

~

I understand ............

Lights is not all I have ..........

Several Tool chests full of tools , self defense equip. - knife collection - Bows and arrows - Power tools , table saws and radial arm saws - blades - Lumber - bins of screws, nut's and bolts - electrical supplies and testing equip. and ALL the stuff you can't throw away - cause you might NEED it some day ! Plus all the receipts for all of it and instruction manuals. And LOTS of kitchen gadgets and cooking utensils .

Not to mention ALL the flashlight and headlamp stuff !

You are just fortunate to have it ALL .... as I am .

We don't even have to go to Home Depot to repair something - we've got it ALL !

You just need to have a scavenger hunt and re-group !

~


----------



## guiri (Aug 14, 2010)

There ya go, same philosophy. 

I want to be able to make anything in the middle of the night if I should want to and not have to wait till the day time because I don't have the tool, or the screw or whatever 

I also have a lot of tools and most of dewalts cordless stuff and around 10-15 batteries that are dead or need opening and fixin'

I just don't have a lot of guns. Got a Polish AK underfolder that I traded for one of my printers. Purdy gun and is brand new 

As for the scavenge hunt and regrouping, that's next on the list 

After doing my taxes...


----------



## TooManyGizmos (Aug 14, 2010)

~

I sure hope they never TAX our light ownership !

That will be the NEXT thing to pry out of our cold dead hands !


Light registration ............ NOooooooooooooooo !

Let's start "NLA" ................. National Lights Association !

Concealed Carry !!!

~


----------



## guiri (Aug 14, 2010)

Yeah, I'm afraid they'll ban lights with too many batteries in them like the TK40...


----------



## Black Rose (Aug 14, 2010)

This is starting to read like an episode of Hoarding: Buried Alive (Flashlight Edition)


----------



## qandeel (Aug 14, 2010)

mmmmmmmmmm 

Not much discussion about 

*Which batteries to buy question...18650, RCR123, 14500... :laughing:*


----------



## guiri (Aug 14, 2010)

Black Rose said:


> This is starting to read like an episode of Hoarding: Buried Alive (Flashlight Edition)



That's right and I'm the producer of the show


----------



## guiri (Aug 14, 2010)

qandeel said:


> mmmmmmmmmm
> 
> Not much discussion about
> 
> *Which batteries to buy question...18650, RCR123, 14500... :laughing:*



That's 'cause the batteries have already been purchased 

So, back on topic of screwing up the thread even further, hehehehe


----------



## Superorb (Aug 15, 2010)

Wow, you guys have been BUSY.


----------



## guiri (Aug 15, 2010)

Yep, we're no slackers


----------



## guiri (Aug 15, 2010)

KiwiMark said:


> Yep, that's the way I do it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Alright, so in reply to this..I still don't quite understand. Do you NEED to charge each cell individually or not? From what I read here, apparently not....or?


----------



## KiwiMark (Aug 15, 2010)

guiri said:


> Alright, so in reply to this..I still don't quite understand. Do you NEED to charge each cell individually or not? From what I read here, apparently not....or?



For NiMH or NiCd - not really as long as they are very close to the same state of charge. i.e. you can charge 1 matched set of cells as a group.

For Li-ion - as for NiMH or NiCd, but balance leads are desirable because the exact voltage is fairly important.

If you have a bunch of different batteries in different sizes and at different states of charge then the answer is yes, you NEED to charge each cell individually.

I have single cell lights - the batteries from those always get charged individually.

I have 2 cells lights - if both my hobby chargers are free than I can charge each cell individually. But I can charge the 2 together on one hobby charger with balance leads when necessary.

I have lights that use 4 or 5 or 6 or 8 cells - I tend to charge these all at once with a hobby charger. Some need (or at least should) be charged with balance leads. My 6 NiCd cells from my Mag6D get charged as a group held together with magnets and the same goes for my 4 NiMH cells from one of my Mag4D lights.


----------



## guiri (Aug 15, 2010)

Now, when you say the same state of charge do you mean that say, one is at 3.4v and the other is 3.7v and they're at different states or do you mean that, one will only charge up to 4.2 and the other to 4.5? (Just making up an example here)

Also, lights like the TK40 that have a battery holder, could you not connect the leads to the holder directly?


----------



## Superorb (Aug 16, 2010)

guiri said:


> Now, when you say the same state of charge do you mean that say, one is at 3.4v and the other is 3.7v and they're at different states or do you mean that, one will only charge up to 4.2 and the other to 4.5? (Just making up an example here)
> 
> Also, lights like the TK40 that have a battery holder, could you not connect the leads to the holder directly?


Different states of charge as in level of charge. A similar state of charge would be 4.05v and 4.10v


----------



## guiri (Aug 16, 2010)

Thanks. What about a battery that's not charging to the same level, you just toss that one or...?


----------



## KiwiMark (Aug 16, 2010)

guiri said:


> Thanks. What about a battery that's not charging to the same level, you just toss that one or...?



If you have a Li-ion battery it WILL charge to 4.2V unless it is completely dead. If you use 2 together in a light they will both be drained equally, therefore they should be able to charge in series with balance leads without an issue.

If you have 2 batteries that seem to be too different, as in when you take them out of the light one has dropped to 3.4V while the other one is reading 3.9V then you have a definite issue - most likely the one that has dropped to a much lower voltage is in very poor condition - then you need to do something. If you have a hobby charger then the obvious thing to try is charging each cell individually and draining them individually with the charger (the Accucell - 6 can drain at up to 1 Amp) and note the capacity the cell had. Most likely in this situation you will need to buy 2 new cells for this light and take the good cell and use it in another (single cell) light and throw away the crook cell. If you have 2 cells that are both OK, but one is noticeably different in capacity then you should buy 2 new ones and use the 2 dissimilar ones in a single cell light (one at a time obviously).

One huge advantage of the hobby chargers is that they can charge, drain, cycle, put in a storage charge, quick charge. This gives you many options - though many people just use them to charge because they can't be bothered learning about all the rest. But a charger draining a cell and giving a readout of the capacity is pretty darn useful when you want to check a possibly stuffed cell.


Of course if you don't have a single cell light to use the odd cells in then you will gain a perfect excuse to buy a new light. There are usually plenty of options for lights that use just one cell of whatever size you have a spare battery of. I have single cell lights that use: AAA, AA, 123 or 18650 cells.


----------



## guiri (Aug 16, 2010)

...and of course, then there's my kind. Too damn stupid to figure and remember all this and again, my problem. I WOULD love to be able to do this AND keep up with my batteries but my problem is that I won't (learn or remember or do it...) and then, we get back to the Pila and that it only takes two batteries at the time


----------



## TooManyGizmos (Aug 16, 2010)

~

You'll find that your batteries don't ALL run down at the same time ..... and you won't need to be charging that many at the same time.

Unless you're a POWER user ............ which you ain't .

A 2-bay Pila just might be all you really need .

Think about it a few minutes ........
With your current uses ....... how often are you needing to charge ALL your cells ?

Do you really need a multi-multi-bay set up .... or a complicated Hobby charger ?

I think you'd do just fine with one 2-bay Pila ............ study on it.

~


----------



## TooManyGizmos (Aug 16, 2010)

~

But bye-the-way ..... no matter what you do .......

You'd do well to change your charging philosophy about putting cells in and forgetting about it.

All battery chargers - whatever kind - need to be monitored and used in proper fireproof surroundings . Take precautions . Use a timer if necessary , IMO :kiss::kiss:

~


----------



## KiwiMark (Aug 16, 2010)

guiri said:


> ...and of course, then there's my kind. Too damn stupid to figure and remember all this and again, my problem. I WOULD love to be able to do this AND keep up with my batteries but my problem is that I won't (learn or remember or do it...) and then, we get back to the Pila and that it only takes two batteries at the time



Those hobby chargers aren't all that dear, what if you buy a Pila now and see how it goes? You could buy a hobby charger later if you find you need to and then you would have 2 independent charging channels on the Pila and another (more versatile) charging channel on the hobby charger. 

You could also buy a Pila now and then buy a second one later if you like the charger but just need to charge more cells at once.

Just a couple of ideas for you to think about . . .


----------



## guiri (Aug 16, 2010)

Nah, Gizmos ain't purdy but he's right. I don't charge often so I guess two channels will have to do AND, this has gone on long enough, I want me a charger, NOW! 

As for the hobby charger prices, that accucell is very well priced so I can get one at anytime, that's not the issue, at least not for now, it was more about the lack of brains and motivation to use one.

So, timing a charge...do they not stop charging when the battery is full? 

How do I know how long to set the timer for and all that?

See now you're complicating it for me again...


----------



## TooManyGizmos (Aug 16, 2010)

guiri said:


> So, timing a charge...do they not stop charging when the battery is full?
> 
> How do I know how long to set the timer for and all that?
> 
> See now you're complicating it for me again...




No ...... most all chargers end up trickle charging , that's why you can't leave em in there for days .

Use a small digital kitchen timer , *Make setting that your first step in charging* , clip it to your shirt collar .

Most fully discharged 18650's will complete charging within 6 to 7 hours .

Set your timer to go off in 3 hours , go check the status and cell temp. then reset your collar timer to 2 hours , then check em again . After that - set your timer to 1 hour intervals , for a look-see .

It actually might be best to look in on them within the first 20 min. to be sure they are not over heating for some reason . That's about how I do it . Kitchen timers are very useful. (just don't forget to set the dang timer ... easy to forget , that's why I do it FIRST.)

You should not leave ANY cell (14500 up to 18650) in the charger more than 12 hours. IMO.

With all the single chargers you already have .... Plus the Pila .... you should be well set.

You don't need a charger assembly line !

~


----------



## KiwiMark (Aug 16, 2010)

guiri said:


> As for the hobby charger prices, that accucell is very well priced so I can get one at anytime, that's not the issue, at least not for now



My point exactly. Before I bought my first hobby charger I already had 2 LaCrosse chargers and two 2-bay Li-ion chargers. I bought the hobby charger because I had some batteries that my other chargers couldn't charge and I needed a new charger to do the job. Until you need something as versatile as a hobby charger you can just use something easy and reliable like the Pila charger. later on you can buy a hobby charger if you need to or don't bother if you don't need it.


----------



## guiri (Aug 16, 2010)

TooManyGizmos said:


> No ...... most all chargers end up trickle charging , that's why you can't leave em in there for days .
> 
> Use a small digital kitchen timer , *Make setting that your first step in charging* , clip it to your shirt collar .
> 
> ...



So, you can't just leave them on for 6 hours and that's it? YOu have to keep checking on them?


----------



## TooManyGizmos (Aug 16, 2010)

guiri said:


> So, you can't just leave them on for 6 hours and that's it? YOu have to keep checking on them?




I don't leave them on for 6hrs without checking a few times.

And certainly not while I am sleeping.

They say most battery problems occur while they are being charged . For multiple and various reasons. Either from the charger, the battery - or a combination of both .

Like leaving boiling pots on the stove - they boil over and make a mess when you least expect it. Making jelly is the worst mess to clean up.

But that's all up to you. You may have better Fire insurance than I .

~


----------



## guiri (Aug 16, 2010)

I've only ONCE NOT gotten screwed by an insurance company and I've had LOTS of claims so you figure that one out.

So, only charge while you're awake and check it every couple of hours...

So, what am I checking for, LACK of fire?



If $hit ain't burnin', I'm good?


----------



## Superorb (Aug 16, 2010)

guiri said:


> I've only ONCE NOT gotten screwed by an insurance company and I've had LOTS of claims so you figure that one out.
> 
> So, only charge while you're awake and check it every couple of hours...
> 
> ...


You check for a cell that is hot or a charger that feels hot. They might get warm, that's normal. I also will check the first charge on a new charger/cell with a multi-meter to verify it's not being charged over 4.2v.


----------



## TooManyGizmos (Aug 16, 2010)

~

And now we are gonna start charging 20 cents per answer .

~


----------



## hank (Aug 16, 2010)

So, for use mounted above a battery charger, is it better to use an ionization-type smoke detector, or a photocell-type smoke detector? Which kind of magic smoke leaks out first, the hot (ionized) smoke or the lower-temperature opaque smoke?

I'm starting to think about those automatic fire extinguishers they also sell to the families of people who might forget something they left on the stove *cough* *cough* 

"Activation of the kitchen hood fire-extinguishing system must automatically shut off the fuel or electricity to all appliances located ..."
www.ndhealth.gov/LifeSafety/PDF_Files/kitchen_requirements.pdf

Oh, wait, I've gone off-topic ....


----------



## JBorneu (Aug 16, 2010)

Should you want to, you could start reading the thread linked in my signature. It explains pretty much everything you need to know about li-ion cells to use them safely. However, if you're not good with manuals, just follow the simple rules people already told you in this thread:


Charge on a fireproof surface (not just in case it catches fire - chargers can get pretty hot without catching fire)
Never charge li-ion cells while sleeping / drinking / leaving the house ...
Check your charging cell every 1-2 hours (warm? no problem; hot (as in burning your fingers)? smoke? strange smell? PROBLEM! pull the plug of the charger, don't fiddle with a hot cell and burn your hands, let it all cool down and throw the cell away)

In case you're really cautious / paranoid (depending on who you ask): keep two half buckets of sand near your charging place, should the cells get too hot / catch fire: toss the charger in one bucket and dump the other one on it all. But you're using the best cells and the best charger, so that is extremely unlikely.


----------



## guiri (Aug 17, 2010)

TooManyGizmos said:


> ~
> 
> And now we are gonna start charging 20 cents per answer .
> 
> ~



Lemme have two bucks worth...what's that paypal addy?


----------



## guiri (Aug 17, 2010)

JBorneu said:


> Should you want to, you could start reading the thread linked in my signature. It explains pretty much everything you need to know about li-ion cells to use them safely. However, if you're not good with manuals, just follow the simple rules people already told you in this thread:
> 
> 
> Charge on a fireproof surface (not just in case it catches fire - chargers can get pretty hot without catching fire)
> ...



Nah, I think like you said, I should be good and need to remember to charge only while I'm mentally present so to speak :naughty:


----------



## guiri (Aug 17, 2010)

Alright, gonna pull the trigger on a Pila but I need to know, what do I need spacers for and where to get'em/what to look for?

I have 18650's, 14500's and RCR123's right now.


----------



## TooManyGizmos (Aug 17, 2010)

guiri said:


> Alright, gonna pull the trigger on a Pila but I need to know, what do I need spacers for and where to get'em/what to look for?
> 
> I have 18650's, 14500's and RCR123's right now.



I use this "15mm all aluminum spacer" that I got at LightHound ( I linked directly to it) its in the Li-on protected batt. area .

The Pila comes with two 15mm black plastic covered "Screw-in" spacers for doing 14500's . But for doing 16340sizes (R-CR123a) you also need an additional 2 of the spacer I linked to . 

Another way to do it is if you have "Dummy" CR123 spacers that look just like a battery. The better ones are solid aluminum like this one linked to. You'd use it plus a R-CR123a in the same Bay . You have to be careful tho and not ever confuse it with a real battery , and try to charge it (alone) by mistake. (that would dead short the charger)

Ka-ching ....... running bar tab


----------



## skoor (Aug 17, 2010)

guiri said:


> Alright, gonna pull the trigger on a Pila but I need to know, what do I need spacers for and where to get'em/what to look for?
> 
> I have 18650's, 14500's and RCR123's right now.


 
Quiri, I am going to suggest a possible alternate view to your direction. You might step back and consider even why you need lithium based specially market rechargeable batteries. These are not sold at Walmart for a reason. Our specialty interest/hobby is a niche within a niche market and one reason you don't find turnkey full function chargers without going the hobby charger route, if you want more than a Pila charger. And you can argue the Pila is even a specialty niche only for Pila batteries- read the manual, it not 'approved" for anything outside of their own battery. 

You might find just using Eneloops more that adequate with few compromises with today's technology. Just a thought to seriously consider. 

I had looked at this speciality li-ion rechargeable market for years and have manged until recently to avoid it for a lot of reasons. And it does have quite an extensive learning curve and I would say risk. I would not give my daughter any 18650 li-ion battery even with a Pila charger, for example, if I had a reasonable alternative. Just not worth it.

Unless you have some special needs or a device, the Sanyo Eneloops are an excellent solution- cheap, relatively available (think Costco), long storage life both for holding charges at full charge (something that damages a lithium rechargeable, BTW, and who wants a 40% charged battery) and long lifetime just for the battery itself, something that even today's lithium do not claim- think 3-5 max even if you never use it. And you have a market full of excellent multiple bay charges like the Maha 9000 for about the same price as the the simple Pila and features without needing to go esoteric like a hobby charger.

On the other hand Li-ion's are higher capacity for same weight and have higher voltage over AA/AAA options, which is necessary for a some designs, which is important. And total weight/bulk becomes important a key driver sometimes. The good news is the risks are well known and chargers from Pila to hobby chargers are excellent now. 

What got me interested is night bicycling with extremely bright lights and you don't want the weight nor run of of juice miles from a trail head. They are all li-ion based today and use outrageously expensive propriety batteries built on just standard li-ion batteries. My light brand wants over $400 just for an over 10K mah battery pack. I can buy 4 ichargers 106B+ or 12 accucel6 ones for one battery replacement. Just the first replacement or 2nd pack and I have paid for a hobby charger + batteries. Now that I am into li-ion space just because of the bike light consideration, I am now testing use of li-ion 17670's for my Surefire/Innova CR132a flashlights. But even they have been set aside for the most part with QUARK/Fenix XPG based AA lights with 200+ lumens OTF. It just the bike light still pushing technology today with around 1850 lumens and hours of run time that need li-ion. 5+ years and it might be AA based too.

It used to be memory was a big consideration for lithium based batteries, but today with a Eneloop, one can argue even a Eneloop gives a li-ion a run for the money. 

I am gong with Li-ions for several reason, but I thought long and hard about it before jumping into it. And just try to find a Eneloop safety bag in the marketplace- anywhere.


----------



## TooManyGizmos (Aug 17, 2010)

~

Errr ...but he now has lights that need Li-ion food .

He has to "Man-up" now ..... and feed em .

~


----------



## guiri (Aug 17, 2010)

TooManyGizmos said:


> I use this "15mm all aluminum spacer" that I got at LightHound ( I linked directly to it) its in the Li-on protected batt. area .
> 
> The Pila comes with two 15mm black plastic covered "Screw-in" spacers for doing 14500's . But for doing 16340sizes (R-CR123a) you also need an additional 2 of the spacer I linked to .
> 
> ...



Ehem...I bet you a twelve pack I'd have that dummy spacer in the charger thinking it's a battery within a month so no, not a good idea for me.

I already fat fingered the hell outta my III M so no, this is even worse.

So, two of the 15mm spacers combined with the ones coming with the pila is all I need to do charge my three battery sizes?


----------



## TooManyGizmos (Aug 17, 2010)

~

Ehem ....... Yes ..... I...M...O.

~


----------



## guiri (Aug 17, 2010)

Sweet, thanks


----------



## KiwiMark (Aug 17, 2010)

skoor said:


> Quiri, I am going to suggest a possible alternate view to your direction. You might step back and consider even why you need lithium based specially market rechargeable batteries.



I don't quite get why you post that in response to quoting guiri saying he has 14500s, RCR123s and 18650s right now. It might make sense to say it before, but now that he has Li-ion cells and lights to use them in he needs the best charging solution for his needs/wants.



skoor said:


> And you can argue the Pila is even a specialty niche only for Pila batteries- read the manual, it not 'approved" for anything outside of their own battery.



You may want to read some of the threads on this forum, I don't even have a Pila charger and I know that it is the most heavily recommended cradle charger on this forum. Pila may want you to buy their batteries, but that doesn't mean that there is any reason that the charger wont work just as well on other brand Li-ion cells.


----------



## skoor (Aug 18, 2010)

KiwiMark said:


> I don't quite get why you post that in response to quoting guiri saying he has 14500s, RCR123s and 18650s right now. It might make sense to say it before, but now that he has Li-ion cells and lights to use them in he needs the best charging solution for his needs/wants.
> 
> 
> 
> You may want to read some of the threads on this forum, I don't even have a Pila charger and I know that it is the most heavily recommended cradle charger on this forum. Pila may want you to buy their batteries, but that doesn't mean that there is any reason that the charger wont work just as well on other brand Li-ion cells.


 
Yep, but never to late to reconsider.  And forums are public and useful for other folks that might still have all purchase options open and can be read for years.

Actually I Have the Pila charger and NO Pila battery and an icharger 106+ in the mail, so fully understand 'how" you can use the Pila charger outside of its manufacturer warranty and directions. 

The point was to just show how little standards/common support for li-ion. This is the only highly recommend consumer charger and "technically" if one bought one off the shelf and was not an enthusiast, he might scratch is head- just a little and wonder why that would be in the manual- like  Of course, we are smart and know better. Only the other cheaper consumer charges go  

I will still stand by my assertion li-ions are for the most part as standalone charges/batteries for consumer use is a niche market with risk. Just my IMHO. Nothing more- nothing less. Don't care to argue or defend it. Just my view. I have both types, but spend hours understanding it, and know the strengths, weakness, trade-offs and risk.

Also I would suggest for anyone considering going to li-ion look at the CPF thread discussing getting off li-ion battery for some additional insight on li-ions.


----------



## guiri (Sep 3, 2010)

Ok guys, I just got the Pila charger and getting ready to charge some stuff and do a low mode, runtime test on all my lights.

So, I just put the batteries in and that's it or do I need to do anything else?

HOw about the big powergenix charger and my C cells, anything else to do there?

Gonna do a runtime test on a Vara2000 

Thanks

George


----------



## TooManyGizmos (Sep 3, 2010)

guiri said:


> Ok guys, I just got the Pila charger and getting ready to charge some stuff and do a low mode, runtime test on all my lights.
> 
> So, I just put the batteries in and that's it or do I need to do anything else?
> 
> George




You might wanna consider pluggin the charger cord into a wall outlet ?


Any MORE ... 2 Dollar questions  :hairpull:............. (yes , the rate just went up)

............


----------



## guiri (Sep 3, 2010)

Careful Gizmo, I know where you live "The center "Blip" on Greta's RADAR screen"

Reminds me of the joke about the dude that walks into the lawyers office and asks, "Do you really charge $150 dollars to answer two questions?" and the lawyer goes "Yes, you have one question left!"



Anyway, great catch on the plugging it in, I would've missed that!
THIS is why I come here...qualified advice!


----------



## TooManyGizmos (Sep 3, 2010)

guiri said:


> Anyway, great catch on the plugging it in, I would've missed that!
> THIS is why I come here...qualified advice!




 Choose your advice wisely  .......... I'm just a "Qualified" ... NUT CASE !!!  :tinfoil:  :nana:


Glad you got your charger - hope it works well for ya .

( use that kitchen timer - Don't forget to press .... START ! )


----------



## TooManyGizmos (Sep 3, 2010)

~

Let us know your *Charged* voltage readings on your "NEW cells" after 30 min. rest .

New cells should be 4.19 to 4.20 off that new Pila .

Older cells will be less ... due to internal resistance from old age . (like ME)

( I hope you got some extra aluminum spacers )
Check your "screw-in" spacers that came with it .
There have been reports of the plastic outer part , spinning around the internal metal post. That makes them very hard to un-screw . If so ... report it to Pila for replacement spacers.


Don't burn thu house down !


----------



## guiri (Sep 3, 2010)

TooManyGizmos said:


> ( use that kitchen timer - Don't forget to press .... START ! )



I swear I'm gonna hurt ya :whoopin:


----------



## guiri (Sep 3, 2010)

TooManyGizmos said:


> ~
> 
> Let us know your *Charged* voltage readings on your "NEW cells" after 30 min. rest .
> 
> ...



Yeah, they were a little hard to unscrew but I got'em off.

I got some spacers from Lighthound together with some Nano's to send to my lawyer in Sweden.

Also, my Li-Ion's are brand new from AW and so are my LSD, C cells for the Vara2000 and I have plenty of eneloops so I should be good 

NOw to find a good place to set'em up 

If I burn down the house, I'll come out ahead so let's hope for the best


----------



## TooManyGizmos (Sep 3, 2010)

~

:devil:...... you got any more questions ?





I need more supplemental income .


:tired: .... :sleepy:


----------



## guiri (Sep 3, 2010)

Sure, apply to this guy...


----------



## TooManyGizmos (Sep 3, 2010)

~

 .. .. :hairpull: ... but .... NO, HE CAN'T ! :tsk:


............ AND HE'S NOT !  :fail:



and I reported you for posting internet PORNOGRAPHY - 

~


----------



## guiri (Sep 4, 2010)

Porn? You mean the foreign dude above turned you on? Hell, I didn't mean to do that..


----------



## TooManyGizmos (Sep 4, 2010)

~

Porn ... is OK .............PORNOGRAPHY ... is BAD


and yes ...... he certainly is ...... a foreign dude .

in many ways .

I don't want his brand of supplemental income .


~


----------



## radellaf (Oct 9, 2010)

guiri said:


> Ok guys, I just got the Pila charger and getting ready to charge some stuff and do a low mode, runtime test on all my lights.



Dunno if you've already read this, but protection circuits don't always work (nor flashlights' built-in low voltage cutoff, if they even have one), so please check the voltage on the cell before you charge if you're going to try running them down completely.

I don't recall the exact figures but I think after you remove them and let them rest they should be over, what, 3.4V? Lower than 2.5V is a problem, under 1.5V the cell is probably unsafe.

Authoritative resource here:
http://www.batteryuniversity.com/partone-12.htm

I personally don't plan to ever deliberately run my 18650s below 20% (3.7V I think) in a light. I'd also prefer my charger stop at 4.1V but, they don't. Along those lines of not caring about that last 10% of charge, I have no problem pulling my 2900mAh cell off the (max 900mA) charger after 4 hours regardless of what any green lights say.

I do feel a bit uneasy getting into LiIon given that I have no "need" to do it. But, really, after reading about anyone's actual problems, they all seem to involve clear over discharge, cheap cells, and/or extended stays on cheap chargers. Using good cells, not too deeply discharging them, and limiting time on the charger leaves me thinking that they're probably just as safe as a laptop. 

i.e., tiny chance the cell is so defective it'll blow without provocation, but if so, it's nothing I could have prevented. And, if I'm in the room, with a fire extinguisher handy, maybe even safer than the laptop I don't think twice about. I know the extinguisher can't put out lithium, but it's a small cell, will burn out fast, and I can put out any wood/paper/fabric nearby.

My candle making hobby is probably just as much of a fire hazard and I still do that. Other than writing/worrying overmuch about it, the only thing I _do_ about it is not leave stuff alone, and make sure I have some extinguishers handy.


----------



## guiri (Oct 9, 2010)

Well, I know how I am and I know I won't be going through all that people are going through so I just wanted to at least get a head start on safety. Is it gonna be 100% safe? Nope but then, it's either this or I don't get flashlights with Li-Ion's 

Thanks for the input by the way

GEorge


----------



## radellaf (Oct 9, 2010)

Yeah, I'm not going to be checking on mine every 30 min either...

Have fun. I'm really enjoying my one and only 18650 light, an MG P-Rocket. Not bright for very long with the IMR cell I'm using, but a solid 10 min of "OMG that's bright".

"Saving money" buying it hasn't really worked vs the A6 Polestar, though. Between batts and chargers, the AA powered one woulda been cheaper.


----------



## guiri (Oct 9, 2010)

Yeah, I stuck with the above batteries as it turns out that this is what I got and liked. Regardless of which, I don't use NON rechargeable batteries. I hate the waste. As for saving money, you're in the wrong forum then 

Hey, check this out.. https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/287835



Later

GEorge


----------



## radellaf (Oct 9, 2010)

I'm pretty much the same, especially after alkalines leaked enough times on me in applications they'd otherwise be perfect for.

As for money, well, right, I mean if I didn't wander over here again (been away for year or so) I wouldn't have known about SST-50s, or bought either of those lights. It was cheaper with the IMR I thought I'd be happy with, but of course I _had_ to get another cell and charger to play with...

Charlotte, eh? Maybe in March if I go to the 2011 hamfest.


----------



## guiri (Oct 10, 2010)

As much as I like food, I would very much like that to mean edible ham but sadly, I'm pretty sure it's radio but still, you're welcome if you're in the area


----------



## radellaf (Oct 10, 2010)

Look at the size of the average amateur radio dude - he probably likes ham  

The reason I haven't gone to the closer hamfests is that they're like these forums -- I'm sure I'd see something I just had to buy. 

As opposed to, say, the Mullet Festival in Swansboro and MumFest in New Bern, neither of which have featured anything of the least interest, but at least got me out of the house.


----------



## guiri (Oct 11, 2010)

So, what are you saying? You couldn't find a mullet you wanted to buy?


----------

