# Time to upgrade



## 350xfire (Jul 12, 2010)

So I just sold my toy lathes and I am ready for a bigger machine like a 12x36. I was wondering if Harbor Freight is the cheapest place to get one? I don't want all the bells and whistles (OK, so I do want all the bells and whistles just can't afford right now) so just looking for a basic machine to build on.
Thanks


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## precisionworks (Jul 12, 2010)

12" is a popular home shop size, and there are literally thousands of used American & European machines for sale ... sometimes close to where you live. Even shipping one may not be a deal killer, as many are in the 1000#-1500# range.


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## wquiles (Jul 12, 2010)

precisionworks said:


> 12" is a popular home shop size, and there are literally thousands of used American & European machines for sale ... sometimes close to where you live. Even shipping one may not be a deal killer, as many are in the 1000#-1500# range.



Thanks Barry for chiming in. I was telling *350xfire* by email that he needs to be cautious with an used lathe, and that he can always show us/give us a link to one he might be considering, so that folks here (including you!) can give him some idea of the particular used lathe is a good buy or not.


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## 350xfire (Jul 12, 2010)

Thanks guys... I would love to find a used bargain, however, I think I would rather have the peace of mind of something brand new that has it's original parts. Many of these machines that I have come accross are really old and for the most part may be abused. So I would not know whether they are any good or not.

I saw quite a few of 13x40 on Ebay for about $2000. I'm just not sure!

Oh and my main requirement is to have a lathe with quick change gears as I want to thread stuff the easy way.


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## precisionworks (Jul 13, 2010)

> I think I would rather have the peace of mind of something brand new that has it's original parts


A brand new HF lathe is often called a CRFK (Chinese Ready to Finish Kit) ... depending on the day of the week it was made, the condition of the drills, taps & reamers used to make it, etc., you can figure at least 20 hours of remanufacturing time ... if not double or triple that :nana:

If you look for "newer" used machines that came from either a home shop or a one person commercial shop, you'll sometimes find pristine lathes that are plug-n-play. My South Bend 10-K was one of those, fully tooled, no issues.

There are always the Craigslist machines that are priced 2X or 3X what they sell for everywhere else - it takes a while to get a feel for the market.


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## precisionworks (Jul 13, 2010)

> something brand new that has it's original parts


Here's another thought that many on this forum will confirm ...

Chinese machine tool builders feel it mandatory to include a handful of machining chips and sand casting grit with every lathe (or mill). These "original parts" are often hidden away inside the gear case, where they have the effect of polishing & burnishing the gears and roller bearings. 

If you'd rather not have stuff floating around inside the machine, plan on opening up all the assemblies & sweeping them clean with a magnet. On a lathe, this means the headstock, tailstock, apron, quick change gearbox, etc. While those are open, adjust the fits of sliding parts (like the gibs that control cross slide tension), make any new bronze feed nuts that are needed, and generally do what the factory would have done if they had some idea what they should have done 

I'm still adjusting & making parts for my lathe, and the two prior owners already went through most every issue. Cheaper is always better :thumbsup:


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## 350xfire (Jul 13, 2010)

Thanks again... Another question

Which tools do you guys feel are necessary for threading properly? Lets keep in mind budget here... I know one can spend many many dollars in these so Chinese when we can!
Thanks


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## saltytri (Jul 13, 2010)

Here's one tool that can do external of any diameter and internal in a bore of .675" or more. I use mine regularly. It comes with two inserts (with two points each), making it a screamin' deal. Plus, the holder is made in a machine shop the USA (not sure about the inserts) and the owner of the company is a good guy - he actually hand-delivers my orders and dispenses valuable advice. :twothumbs

http://www.mesatool.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=4&products_id=14

For smaller bores, buy the Circle brand of all-carbide threading tools from Enco or MSC when a discount rolls around. The ones with .250" shank are rigid and strong enough and will fit in any bore that you're likely to find in a flashlight.


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## precisionworks (Jul 13, 2010)

> the holder is made in a machine shop the USA


+1 on Mesa Tools.

Their boring bars are also USA made & sell for Chinese prices. Cost is low enough that I bought a bunch of bars and cut them down in 1" increments for use in the mill boring head.



> necessary for threading properly? Lets keep in mind budget


About $5 will buy either a HSS or Cobalt tool bit (Enco has a bunch in different sizes). Grind to the 60 degree shape shown below & thread for a while. Great for aluminum or mild steel, not so good on harder or tougher materials. Millions of external threads have been cut with a tool like this & quite a few still are.


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## precisionworks (Jul 13, 2010)

The tool shown below, also HSS, is super easy to keep sharp as the profile does not change. Grind the top slightly when dull. Always on eBay.


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## 350xfire (Jul 13, 2010)

Cool, what about the measuring tools like thread pitch gauges, etc?

Oh, I am also wanting to get a tool holder and inserts that are round to do round grooves and a round over insert and tool for rounding over sharp corners in delrin and aluminun...
Thanks


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## 350xfire (Jul 13, 2010)

OK, guys, here is an update... This ugly thing is not what I had in mind when I decided to upgrade, but it was $300 with a bunch of tooling, steady rests, 8" (I think) chuck, etc! The chuck turned freely and the gears shifted smoothly. Bad pictures in the ad due to whow tha machine was placed in the garage. It's a Taiwnese 12x26 I think! Made by Sanyuen. I think scrap value on this baby may be $300+ so either way I won't lose. Now I gotta figure out how to move it. The seller is going to help me load it with 5 guys. Then I'll have to figure someting out when I get home. Oh, I did not see it run so I am taking a chance, but the guy said it works. It's wired for 220 and he did not have a plug for it.

http://dallas.craigslist.org/ndf/for/1832152552.html

I figure, rent a lift gated truck for this!


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## 65535 (Jul 14, 2010)

The beauty about metal and machines is they can always be fixed with some skill, time, money, and patience.


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## 350xfire (Jul 14, 2010)

65535 said:


> The beauty about metal and machines is they can always be fixed with some skill, time, money, and patience.


 
Yeah, lets just hope the MONEY part of it doesn't kill me, though... That $300 deal might turn out into a $2000 nightmare. lol

I am building dollies this week to be able to move it. I called some riggers and they want $1200 to drive it 30 miles (load and unload)... The seller offered to have some guys help me load it so mainly I'll have to unload when I get it home. I have some work buddies for that that will work for custom Maglites and above all BEER!!


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## gadget_lover (Jul 14, 2010)

An important thing to keep in mind as you are restoring it...

You may not need more accuracy than what the old timer provides. Get used to the lathe before deciding what needs to be perfected. It is quite possible to design things to fit together despite loose tolerances. China does it all the time. So do the car manufacturers. Ever wonder why there is a 1/3 inch gap all the way around your car door? 

Dan


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## 350xfire (Jul 15, 2010)

OK, so I have the frames for my dollies welded up. Now I have to drill holes for the 5 casters I am using per dolly. Got a few guys set up for Sunday... Wish me luck. This will be a test of my sucky welding skills!!!


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## JetfuelGreaseMonkey (Jul 18, 2010)

I learned recently when I just acquired my first lathe for $80 (craftsman 12x36 with quickchange, some tooling and a whole lot of dust and dirt.) That the lowered end of a truck tail-gate is right about bench height. And unbolting the lathe from the bench gives you a lower center of gravity to strap down. It'd be wise to relevel it when you put it back together, but your almost undoubtedly going to spend days inspecting every gear and surface anyways.


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## PhotonFanatic (Jul 18, 2010)

Wow, you are either really brave, or a gambler!

I'm sure that it can be restored, but you'll have your work cut out for you. The good thing about that, is that you will know the lathe from inside to out. :devil:




350xfire said:


> OK, guys, here is an update... This ugly thing is not what I had in mind when I decided to upgrade, but it was $300 with a bunch of tooling, steady rests, 8" (I think) chuck, etc! The chuck turned freely and the gears shifted smoothly. Bad pictures in the ad due to whow tha machine was placed in the garage. It's a Taiwnese 12x26 I think! Made by Sanyuen. I think scrap value on this baby may be $300+ so either way I won't lose. Now I gotta figure out how to move it. The seller is going to help me load it with 5 guys. Then I'll have to figure someting out when I get home. Oh, I did not see it run so I am taking a chance, but the guy said it works. It's wired for 220 and he did not have a plug for it.
> 
> http://dallas.craigslist.org/ndf/for/1832152552.html
> 
> I figure, rent a lift gated truck for this!


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## 350xfire (Jul 18, 2010)

OK, guys, the lathe is home... Took 5 guys to load onto trailer using jacks and dollies. Then to unload 3 guys using 2 cherry pickers. I took my L6-30 plug off my welder and hooked it up to the machine and it works fine. The gears work nicely, the leadscrew turns, etc, etc.. Now I'm working on my "chinese" paint job using $1 paint from Wal Mart!!! She's looking good. Overall for $300 doesn't seem bad. Needs new belts. I need to figure out how to change the oil... So final specs- 12x36, 1.5" bore, 8" chuck!!! A bunch of tooling, none of which is indexable.

I need a QCTP for it. It does not use a dove tail nut, but a bolt sticks up through it.


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## gadget_lover (Jul 19, 2010)

Sounds like you might have lucked out there! Congrats.

Dan


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## 350xfire (Jul 19, 2010)

OK, so I have changed the three belts, checked the oil, painted it and checked all gears, leadscrew, power feed, etc and looks to be pretty good. The carriage slide has some excessive slack on the feed handle but nothing I could not live without. Now, I need a QCTP. Anyone know how to install one on a machine without a dove tail nut? This one just has a bolt sticking out of the slide (It's like a welded bolt, not removable).
Thanks


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## wquiles (Jul 19, 2010)

350xfire said:


> OK, so I have changed the three belts, checked the oil, painted it and checked all gears, leadscrew, power feed, etc and looks to be pretty good. The carriage slide has some excessive slack on the feed handle but nothing I could not live without. Now, I need a QCTP. Anyone know how to install one on a machine without a dove tail nut? This one just has a bolt sticking out of the slide (It's like a welded bolt, not removable).
> Thanks



I think we can help you more if you post a few pictures of the bolt as well as some dimensions, thread size, etc.


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## gadget_lover (Jul 20, 2010)

many cheap QCTPs have a bolt through the top that screws into a hole in the compound. The bolt has a collar that goes all the way down to press against the bottom of the body. This locks the body when the bolt is tightened. 

The cam that pushes against the pistons surrounds that collar and is free to rotate.

In essence, the piston style will work for you if you substitute a nut and your existing stud in place of the bolt that comes with it.

Daniel


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## 350xfire (Jul 20, 2010)

OK, some pictures... Thanks


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## 350xfire (Jul 20, 2010)

Oh, and one last question (for now)... What do I need to lock this tailstock down. It did not come with a lever. Is this something I can buy or do I need to fabricate? Looks like may be an offset cilynder/circular ended lever sticks in the hole to pull the clamp up and down.

Thanks


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## gadget_lover (Jul 20, 2010)

Yep, there should be a lever that rotates a cam that moves the clocking plate.

And I'm pretty sure you do NOT want oil/grease under the tool post. It relies on the friction of tightening that top bolt to keep it from moving while you are making chips.

Daniel


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## 350xfire (Jul 21, 2010)

OK, so I think I figured out the tool post issue. Looks like the factory bolt is a pressed fit so I will press it off. Then, take a 5/8" grade 8 bolt and machine it to press fit...

As for the tailstock, I figured it is lever actuated, but where do I get the lever? Will I have to fabricate it?

Thanks


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## precisionworks (Jul 21, 2010)

> I figured it is lever actuated, but where do I get the lever?


If you have access to other lathes, look at how the lever is made with a cam offset that pulls the locking plate up toward the bed when the lever is pushed forward (whew :nana.

The photos from the Little Machine Shop kit are pretty good: http://littlemachineshop.com/Instructions/2018CamlockInstallation.pdf

A similar design: http://www.cnccookbook.com/CCLatheTailLock.htm

Both those designs are a start, but they will not work with your TS (nor with mine). Since your TS already has the shaft hole bored through the right side (far side), your cam shaft & lever are attached there. Not a big deal, and yours will work nicer than the mods I referenced.

One note ... the shaft & follower need to either be made of something hardenable (O1, W1, A1), or a material that's already reasonably hard (4140HT or similar). I'd probably use 4140HT as it machines well & the part is ready to use, but that's your call. Whatever you do, avoid low carbon steels (like 1018 or A36) - those are great for building utility trailers but not for machinery parts :nana:

As WQuilles might say, take photos :devil:


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## precisionworks (Jul 21, 2010)

Found the photo that shows how your TS will look when you're done ...






The locking plate (black colored, lower right in photo) is shaped to fit the underside of the lathe bed rails ... not hard to make, and you can leave it dead soft if you want (hot rolled or cold rolled flat would work fine). Elongate the center slot so that the slot location becomes less critical (hard to see in the photo but they all have that).

The top of the locking bolt attaches to the cam in a manner that allows the cam shaft to rotate & pull the bolt (and locking plate) upward. My lathe uses a collar that fits on the cam shaft, and the bolt screws into a threaded hole in the collar.


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## 350xfire (Jul 21, 2010)

precisionworks said:


> Found the photo that shows how your TS will look when you're done ...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
Hey thanks... and yes, Will would say post more pictures... He actually e-mailed me and told me that as well. Thanks for all the help Will and thanks for the pic precision!!! BTW, all I need is the lever itself as everything else is there!


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## precisionworks (Jul 22, 2010)

> all I need is the lever itself


That's the easy part ... figure out the female thread size in the cam shaft, thread a rod to match & install a handle. I used a 2" phenolic ball handle (Reid has a big selection) as the ball is much easier on the hands than the skinny end cap shown in the photo.

There must be one injection molder in China who supplies those awful end caps to every lathe maker. At least they are easily replaced :thumbsup:


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## 350xfire (Jul 22, 2010)

precisionworks said:


> That's the easy part ... figure out the female thread size in the cam shaft, thread a rod to match & install a handle. I used a 2" phenolic ball handle (Reid has a big selection) as the ball is much easier on the hands than the skinny end cap shown in the photo.
> 
> There must be one injection molder in China who supplies those awful end caps to every lathe maker. At least they are easily replaced :thumbsup:


 

Oops, more specifically, I need the outer and inner lever. I guess what you are calling the camshaft and the lever.


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## precisionworks (Jul 23, 2010)

> I need the outer and inner lever.


OK :thumbsup:

Save the outside lever for last, as you need to first machine the camlock shaft. To do that, measure the ID of the hole that goes through the side of the tailstock casting. Most likely it's metric, meaning that you'll need to turn a shaft that has a nice, close, running fit to the hole ... try to hit hole diameter minus .0001"- .0005". If your shaft is much smaller than .0005" under hole diameter, it will not have as nice a feel, but it will still work. 

Turning the shaft to that diameter means that it will slide through the external hole & fit the internal hole bored into the far side of the casting - you'll see it if you light up the inside of the TS casting.

Set the turned shaft up in a 4-jaw & offset the shaft about 1/2 of shaft diameter. Turn the middle portion of the shaft down & you'll end up with a cylindrical portion that will act as a cam.

You should end up with a camlock shaft that looks (more or less) like this:







Then make a follower block with a hole large enough to slip over the major diameter of the camlock shaft, like this:






A bolt screws into the bottom of the block & pulls up the locking plate when the lever pushes the camlock shaft into position.


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## 350xfire (Jul 23, 2010)

precisionworks said:


> OK :thumbsup:
> 
> Save the outside lever for last, as you need to first machine the camlock shaft. To do that, measure the ID of the hole that goes through the side of the tailstock casting. Most likely it's metric, meaning that you'll need to turn a shaft that has a nice, close, running fit to the hole ... try to hit hole diameter minus .0001"- .0005". If your shaft is much smaller than .0005" under hole diameter, it will not have as nice a feel, but it will still work.
> 
> ...


 
Thanks again... That drawing was really worth 1000 words! The block is also there, so I just need the first part. Oh, and it looks like the hole is about 0.8"


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## precisionworks (Jul 23, 2010)

> it looks like the hole is about 0.8"


Most likely 20mm, which is 0.7874. Measure it carefully & turn the shaft for a smooth running fit. 

After turning the offset for the cam, figure out where the hole needs to be for the actuating lever. The lever on my TS is horizontal (rear facing) when unlocked, and a little past vertical when locked, maybe 120 degrees. The adjustment of the nut on the end of the locking rod (that pulls up the plate) affects total rotational travel.


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## 350xfire (Jul 25, 2010)

precisionworks said:


> Most likely 20mm, which is 0.7874. Measure it carefully & turn the shaft for a smooth running fit.
> 
> After turning the offset for the cam, figure out where the hole needs to be for the actuating lever. The lever on my TS is horizontal (rear facing) when unlocked, and a little past vertical when locked, maybe 120 degrees. The adjustment of the nut on the end of the locking rod (that pulls up the plate) affects total rotational travel.


 
Hey precision, may be you can tell me how this cam lever sort of works... I think I have the mechanics in my mind on how it should work, but I can't see how it would work on my TS. In looking into the hole, I see a 20mm hole all the way through! If I make a camlock that is no more than 20mm in diameter, otherwise it won't fit through, then how is the offset going to activate the base lock? I hope that question makes sense! I just don't see how a rod that has to fit through 3 round holes (20mm) is going to be able to activate the lock.

Crap, never mind, I just figured it out! This is why the locking mechanism has slack on it so you can pull it lower that the lined holes... Now it makes sense. You make a 20mm shaft, you off center a section and after assembly, you bring the loose piece lower than the 2 holes... May not make sense but it does to me now!
Thanks


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## Torque1st (Jul 25, 2010)

That tool post is perfectly serviceable. I have turned thousands of parts with one. You can use insert tooling in it.

Just clean it up and check for wear at the index holes. Replace any clamp screws that are mushroomed.


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## 350xfire (Jul 27, 2010)

Before:





After





Much better... Yes, the 4-way works, but the QC is sooo much easier!!! Every minute spent setting up is a minute that you are not making something! Was pretty easy to install. The original mounting bolt was threaded in. I just removed it and rethreaded the end of the QCTP to 5/8" thread and it worked.


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## 350xfire (Jul 27, 2010)

The begining of the cam lock! I spun these last night. Now I have to go to my machinist buddy's house to use his 4 jaw chuck and do the offset turning. Thanks to all you guys that helped me to figure this out!


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## precisionworks (Jul 27, 2010)

Nice job, 90% of the work is done 

Make sure that when the outside lever is horizontal (facing away from the headstock) the cam is in the lowest position. As you rotate the lever upward & forward, the cam will pull the lock plate up into contact with the lower bed ways. I don't believe the image posted before is quite correct:






IMO, the outside lever should be brought around another 90 degrees toward the rear. The way the drawing shows it, the plate is unlocked when the lever is straight up & locked when the lever is pointed horizontal toward the headstock. You want the locking to occur 90 degrees sooner.


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## 350xfire (Jul 27, 2010)

Cool thanks again... In reviewing my steps, I probably should have left the handle hole for last. This way much easier to set up in the 4-jaw and then determine the placement of said hole!


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## precisionworks (Jul 27, 2010)

> I probably should have left the handle hole for last


You should be fine. When the shaft is set up in the 4-jaw (meaning you have the offset needed) rotate the chuck until the farthest out jaw is at 6:00, when facing the chuck. Loosen two of the jaws just slightly to allow you to rotate the shaft. When the shaft hole is at the 9:00 position, retighten the two jaws & it's ready for turning.

Will should post a CAD drawing, which would be easier to understand.


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## precisionworks (Jul 27, 2010)

I believe the prior post is incorrect ... with the farthest out jaw at 6:00, the cam will be located at 12:00 ... so the lever hole should be positioned at 3:00.

Clear as mud?


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## gadget_lover (Jul 28, 2010)

If you are impatient, you can turn an eccentric with your 3 jaw scroll chuck. Put a small spacer between two of the jaws and your rod, thus offsetting it. The rod will be up against the third jaw. 

Daniel


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## 350xfire (Jul 28, 2010)

Lever is done! It is pointing too far down when disengaged so we are going to bend it with a bender and that will be fixed. Now I need a ball handle for it!
Next DRO, but that can wait until I pay this month's bills off!!!
Then more projects, then more tooling, then more more more more... I think I may have a sickness!!!


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## precisionworks (Jul 28, 2010)

> Now I need a ball handle for it!


Amazon is sometimes cheaper than ordering directly from Reid Supply.

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_s...x=ball+k&ih=5_0_0_0_0_1_0_0_0_2.155_124&fsc=5


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## Aircraft800 (Aug 28, 2010)

I still haven't seen the pictures of your new lathe, the craigslist ad expired. I wonder if I saw the listing prior to finding this thread, I've been looking for a lathe myself. 

Any chance you are close to the DFW area? It's getting close to DFW Texas Flashapalooza time.


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## 350xfire (Aug 28, 2010)

Here you go... I live in Little Elm, about 40 min north of Dallas.


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## Aircraft800 (Aug 28, 2010)

Wow! That Lathe is a Behemoth! It looks like you can make a heap of chips with that beauty! I didn't see it on craigslist, you must have snatched it up fast. What make is it? My wife bought me a lathe recently, but I'm still in the process of cleaning and setting it up, also from craigslist.

You'll have to drive down for the next GTG, sometime around Oct. 2.


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## 350xfire (Aug 28, 2010)

Aircraft800 said:


> Wow! That Lathe is a Behemoth! It looks like you can make a heap of chips with that beauty! I didn't see it on craigslist, you must have snatched it up fast. What make is it? My wife bought me a lathe recently, but I'm still in the process of cleaning and setting it up, also from craigslist.
> 
> You'll have to drive down for the next GTG, sometime around Oct. 2.


 
Funny thing is that the pics on the ad were so crappy that I guess noone wanted to go look at it. The ad was on there for 2-3 weeks until I decided to contact the guy. When he said it was a 12x I asked a few questions and finally decided to go look at it... For $300 was a hell of a deal!

Of course by the time I moved it, got some tooling etc... I'm at a lot more than that. Oh an it's a San Yuen from Taiwan about 1970s vintage. I can't even find a manual on it.

Is the Oct GTG in Arlington?


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## Aircraft800 (Aug 29, 2010)

Congratulations on your purchase!

Undecided on the location, Arlington or back at Lake Lavon.


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