# My PM-1236 finally arrived



## tino_ale (Sep 14, 2014)

Hi guys,

After a long long wait I finally got my PM-1236 delivered here in France near Paris. I can't tell you how excited I am as I've been willing to jump into the metal lathe world for almost a decade now. I got hooked by aluminium then titanium flashlights right here in 2005, I think McGizmo is the main culpit.
Long story short, never had the place for a metal lathe until a year ago, when I ordered the PM-1236, and the delivery of my machine tool that long, yep you read that right : one year.

The machine crate arrived safe and sound but it was on a stack of two pallets and those pallets were almost completely crushed. In the delivery truck I discovered a machine tilting maybe 20 degrees to one side :tsk: 

After it made the trip to my garage (an interesting moment I must say) I used a car jack and some wood lumber to lift one side at the time, place a support underneath each end, and remove the pallets entirely. What I removed was pieces of crushed wood, barely recognizable as a pallet.

Here is how it looks now :











I removed the tooling and the tailstock to get a clear view on the machine itself, as well as the 3 jaws chuck (came out quite easily with just gentle tapping with a wood mallet).

Now there is no obvious damage to the lathe but there are a few rust spot both on the bed ways and on the spindle nose :






































What do you guys recommend to make them go away ?
I would rather use a chemical solution than scrubing

Now I need to rent an engine hoist and install the lathe at it's definite location. How much room do you suggest I leave from the wall at the back ?

Overall aside from an obvious lack of attention to details (paint job, paint mist on several spots, crude junk in place you would not expect, bent dial lever...) the machine seems sound. After some good cleaning and maybe refinishing of some parts I'm confident it will be a good machine for me.

This lathe has a removable bed section but it seems the pain job had been done afterwards. Am I supposed to remove that section to clean everything or should I leave it alone ? Is if difficult to get it back perfectly aligned with the bed ?

Thanks for your advise
Cheers


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## lauren (Sep 14, 2014)

Why so long? I have one on order now for about the past month, I hope it does not take a year to get it. Been reading as much as I can find on these lathes, and it seems all the guys on here seem to like them.


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## BVH (Sep 14, 2014)

A BIGGG ConGrats!! I left only 5.75" from the removable electrical connection/relay box to my garage wall which is the same as saying I left 10.5" from the back side of the drip tray to the garage wall. I was able to change out a motor with these clearances. I think if doing it again, I'd leave 2-3 more inches.


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## Str8stroke (Sep 14, 2014)

Impressive rig there! I wish I had the time, talent & funds to obtain one of those. Good Luck & Keep us posted with your learning. Oh, I guess I should have asked. Is this your first foray into metal work?? Just curious. 

BTW, I use stainless steel wool, or copper wool to clean rust spots like that.


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## gt40 (Sep 14, 2014)

I am very happy for you. There are few things as awesome as getting your first real lathe or mill. You have a nice machine that should serve you well.


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## tino_ale (Sep 15, 2014)

lauren said:


> Why so long? I have one on order now for about the past month, I hope it does not take a year to get it. Been reading as much as I can find on these lathes, and it seems all the guys on here seem to like them.


Definitely and without a doubt because it was an international order. Matt said he's had big issues with the transport company. My order process has been a dream until I paid in full, from there to the actual delivery at my door it's been pretty much a horror story. Probably not necessary that I go into the details but Matt is also spreading himself too thin IMO. I have my machine at last, it's all that matters now. If you're ordering from CONUS I think there is no reason to be worried, others have had good delivery experience with PM before.

BTW welcome to CPF. This place is a gold mine of valuable information and help.



BVH said:


> A BIGGG ConGrats!! I left only 5.75" from the removable electrical connection/relay box to my garage wall which is the same as saying I left 10.5" from the back side of the drip tray to the garage wall. I was able to change out a motor with these clearances. I think if doing it again, I'd leave 2-3 more inches.


Thanks I'll keep that in mind for final installation :thumbsup:



Str8stroke said:


> Impressive rig there! I wish I had the time, talent & funds to obtain one of those. Good Luck & Keep us posted with your learning. Oh, I guess I should have asked. Is this your first foray into metal work?? Just curious.
> 
> BTW, I use stainless steel wool, or copper wool to clean rust spots like that.


Thanks, I would have preferred a non abrasive/mechanical way to remove them but I'll give a try to copper wool first.

Yep that is my first machining experience ever. But I've been following all the lathe threads for years now, especially those about the PM1236, that I almost felt I knew the machine at the second I was it in real.
Very funny feeling.

The first contact with the machine wasn't so much of a "wow" moment, honestly. There is the protective gunk everywhere, the crappy paint job to say the least, etc.
Some parts are so dirty and/or crude I am having a hard time picturing the shop in which they've been made/assembled.
Some stuff that is supposed to be brand new looks like it was salvaged from a landfill, like the main power cord. Going to replace that one.
I'm aware I have not purchased a shinny brand new Emcomat 17D, I get what I've paid for, which is more of a lathe than I am a machinist anyway.

After cleaning the lathe thoroughly, it is actually looking better and better and slowly but surely it is growing on me.
I've removed and completely cleaned/reassembled the 3 jaws chuck.
I've also removed the pain mist in places it should't be with acetone.
I'm going to clean and reassemble the tailstock, probably the cross slide and compound slide too.
I'm probably going to refinish parts of the lathe (bead blasting and/or slight remachining of the hand dials, knobs, etc)
Bit by bit, I have no doubt it'll get better and better.

Can't wat to get it set up properly at it's final location, and start making chips !



gt40 said:


> I am very happy for you. There are few things as awesome as getting your first real lathe or mill. You have a nice machine that should serve you well.


Thanks a lot.

I popped my cherry this afternoon by simply machining an aluminium rod. Facing and turning only. Took me 3 minutes. The finish isn't good (doesn't look that good in real compared to that picture) but nothing is really adjusted in the machine, and I've used speed and feed settings that I know nothing about.

But man, THAT WAS COOL. It must be the first time in my life that I almost wish I wasn't going on a 10 days trip in Spain tomorow (no worries that feeling is going to fade away fast enough lol)


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## lauren (Sep 15, 2014)

Try laq. thinner for light rust, this is what I used when I use to do auto body work, and thanks for the welcome.


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## precisionworks (Sep 15, 2014)

> I'm going to clean and reassemble the tailstock, probably the cross slide and compound slide too.


Might as well do the headstock as that's the only thing left. Don't try a total tear down of the headstock but do dump the oil & casting sand that's sometimes in the bottom of the gearbox. The more you fine tune the fit of the parts the better the machine becomes.


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## BVH (Sep 15, 2014)

To add to Precisionworks above post, It's easy to remove the 6 allen cap screws holding the gearbox lid on. This gives you an unfettered look and hand-access into the gearbox after you drain the oil to manually clean out the "big stuff" and check the allen set screws holding some of the gears to the shafts. A few of mine were loose. You can also install a few strong of magnets in various locations to catch the future shavings. And the original reason I did this is because the thin gasket was leaking on the back side, dripping oil down onto the motor mounting bracket area, then onto the drip tray. I used some thick gasket material to make a new gasket. Well worth the hour or so to get it done plus the time to make the gasket.


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## MRsDNF (Sep 16, 2014)

Welcome to the clan of lathe owners. It looks like a very nice machine. What tooling and other equipment did you get with it?


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## precisionworks (Sep 16, 2014)

BVH said:


> ... I used some thick gasket material to make a new gasket. Well worth the hour or so to get it done plus the time to make the gasket.


The best way I've found to seal in gear oil is Permatex 81182 Gear Oil RTV Gasket Maker. Scrape both surfaces clean, apply, finger tighten flange bolts until material begins to seep out the edges & allow it to set for one hour. Then re-torque another 1/4 to 1/2 turn. Allow to cure overnight.




The thin gray bead is the Permatex sealer.


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## tino_ale (Sep 16, 2014)

MRsDNF said:


> Welcome to the clan of lathe owners. It looks like a very nice machine. What tooling and other equipment did you get with it?



I couldn't help and got a Dorian First time buyers sets 

Fit and finish is simply outstanding, operation is butter smooth, fell in love with it instantly.




Yeah I know, the boring bar is mounted the wrong way 

For now I only have the Dorian inserts included in the set (so only one each), I'll need to order more of those or, find suitable alternatives that fit the holders fine.
Haven't digged into that question yet... (inserts searching is intimidating and soooooo time consuming!)

Some additional holders (some more D1, D2 and a 1" boring bar heavy duty holder).






The preferred package QCTP was forgotten (sorting it out with Matt at the moment) but I was supposed to have more holders.

Then the TMX 4-tools set Matt sells (3 DCxT holders and a 3/4"boring bar), with some inserts :





Out of those 3 inserts sets, one is supposed to be aluminium specific insert, one for general purpose/steel and the last one for Stainless Steel and titanium;
Now I must say besides the aluminium high rake inserts (the shinny ones on top), between the two lower ones I can't tell which is which! Maybe someone can help ?

Then besides that, I got a precision level, a center drills set, one or two spotting drills, I think that's about all.

I will definitely need :
- small boring bars, I was tempted by the Dorian "SWUCR Miniature Boring Set" (Part # 733101-85070) 
- a large 1" boring bar
- inserts to feed the hunger of my Dorian set
- knurling tooling (later on as those are really expensive)
- probably more drills
- a larger parting tool as mine is a little limited in max diameter I can part

Anything you guys think I should get in priority ?


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## BVH (Sep 16, 2014)

Ultradex Solid Carbide boring bars - 1/4", 3/8" and 1/2". The Nnoga one-hand operation magnetic holding system - MG61003. Albrecht 1/8" to 1/2" 3MT shanked keyless drill chuck. Starrett 0-1, 1-2 and 2-3" electronic digital mics. Starrett inside mic set. Starrett Telescoping gauge set. Mitutoyo Test indicator 513 942. Some quality linear shaft for checking runout. I bought some items used off Ebay. Some, I wanted to be the first owner of.

When you can, check out the runout of your chuck. I had very little but I was actually able to improve it by rotating it to a different position on the 3-stem mount. Be sure to re-torque it. I think it's around 105 - 115 ft lbs. IIRC.


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## precisionworks (Sep 16, 2014)

tino_ale said:


> ... Anything you guys think I should get in priority ?


A large line of credit at your bank :nana:


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## tino_ale (Sep 17, 2014)

BVH said:


> Ultradex Solid Carbide boring bars - 1/4", 3/8" and 1/2". The Nnoga one-hand operation magnetic holding system - MG61003. Albrecht 1/8" to 1/2" 3MT shanked keyless drill chuck. Starrett 0-1, 1-2 and 2-3" electronic digital mics. Starrett inside mic set. Starrett Telescoping gauge set. Mitutoyo Test indicator 513 942. Some quality linear shaft for checking runout. I bought some items used off Ebay. Some, I wanted to be the first owner of.
> 
> When you can, check out the runout of your chuck. I had very little but I was actually able to improve it by rotating it to a different position on the 3-stem mount. Be sure to re-torque it. I think it's around 105 - 115 ft lbs. IIRC.


Thanks for those references, I'll note them down. Saves me a lot of research time.:thumbsup:
BTW those in red, I already have (or equivalent). Good thing I started gathering some tools in advance!


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## tino_ale (Sep 21, 2014)

BVH said:


> When you can, check out the runout of your chuck. I had very little but I was actually able to improve it by rotating it to a different position on the 3-stem mount. Be sure to re-torque it.



When you say try different position : do you mean 1/try different locations of the studs on the chuck back plate ? Or 2/ keep the chuck and back plate as one unit, and try the 3 different mounting locations on the D1-4 spindle nose ?
I have tried 2/ that but funny you might think, there is only one position that will go flush against the spindle nose (inserting by hand only, I haven't tried forcing it in by torquing).
The other two positions there's a 0.2" gap behind the back plate that I can't close by hand.

I haven't tried relocating the studs on the chuck back place yet. Might do the trick.

I could also do 3/ try the 3 different positions of the chuck on the back plate.

Man between 1/ 2/ and 3/ hat's a LOT of different combinations to try out 



BVH said:


> I think it's around 105 - 115 ft lbs. IIRC.


Is that the torque for the chuck to backplate allen screws (which don't even align properly BTW) or the torque of the D1-4 system ?


Thanks !


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## BVH (Sep 21, 2014)

Loosen the 3 square drive camlocks on the chuck, remove the chuck from the 3 studs and rotate the chuck to the next position and lastly, the 3rd possible position and see which position results in the least amount of chuck OD runout. If memory serves, there might have been a difference of as much as .002".

Torque is referring to the same 3 square drive chuck camlocks mentioned above.


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## tino_ale (Sep 21, 2014)

You mean the square cam lock that are located on the spindle right ? not the ones on the chuck


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## BVH (Sep 21, 2014)

Opps, silly me, yes square drives on the spindle, not the chuck. The studs are on the chuck.


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## precisionworks (Sep 21, 2014)

tino_ale said:


> ... there is only one position that will go flush against the spindle nose (inserting by hand only, I haven't tried forcing it in by torquing).
> The other two positions there's a 0.2" gap behind the back plate that I can't close by hand


 
It sounds like the camlock studs are screwed too far into the chuck back plate. If you unscrew each one by one turn the chuck should be able to go against the spindle nose in any position.


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## tino_ale (Sep 21, 2014)

precisionworks said:


> It sounds like the camlock studs are screwed too far into the chuck back plate. If you unscrew each one by one turn the chuck should be able to go against the spindle nose in any position.


Thanks for the tip I'll try that when I return!
At the moment my camlocks are snug at around 3:30 to 4:00 (between the two V marks at 3:00 and 6:00). Maybe that's a little on the short side.

What I will do is measure TIR of the chuck back plate spigot in all 3 positions, choose the truest position.
Then only move on and mount the chuck on the back plate. Chuck a test bar in and measure the TIR on the bar, close to the jaws. Try all 3 positions and choose the truest.

I gave it some thoughts and I figured :
- the studs provide no locating so position of each stud on the back plate shouldn't change TIR whatsoever
- I need to enlarge a little the backplate holes for the chuck mounting screws. As of one at least one is seriously rubbing against the hole side and that's not good as those crews are not supposed to interfere with the chuck location. Only the backplate spigot should locate the chuck.

BTW once I find the best position for the backplate mounting to the spindle, and mark it down, is it recommended that I remachine the backplate's contact surface ? (the surface that contacts the back of the cluck when mounted) ? I figure it that surface is not 100% perpendicular to the spindle axis, the work won't be coaxial with the spindle and no matter how good the TIR is close to the chuck it will be crappy further away.

Will keep you posted on my advancement.


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## tino_ale (Sep 27, 2014)

Hey Guys,

After my oil change I ran the lathe with the threading/feed box disengaged just to break-in the spindle gearbox.
Ran 5 min on each speed, once in normal once in reverse each.

That was the first time the lathe ran for an extended period of time. The motor heated up to 90°C at the hottest point (most of the motor body was around 80°C).
That seems a little hot don't you think ? I wasn't cutting anything, just spinning the 3 jaws chuck.

Checked the foot brake, seems ok to me (and I can turn the spindle by hand, depending on the speed, might need to grab the chuck though.

Do I have an issue ?
Thanks !


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## precisionworks (Sep 27, 2014)

The surface temperature of a continuously (and correctly) operating general purpose industrial electirc motor will easily be 80° C (176° F) and perhaps as high as 100° C (212° F). Surface temp means very little because design temperature ratings apply to the hottest spot _within the motor's windings_, not how much of that heat is transferred to motors surface. Internal temps can run 20° C to 30° C hotter than surface temps. 

A much more valid test than surface temp is to measure the motor's amp draw using a clamp-style ammeter. If current draw is less than or equal to the nameplate rating you can be sure everything is OK with the windings, including their temperature, as long as the motor is operating in an application it is designed for.


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## tino_ale (Sep 28, 2014)

Thanks, that is reassuring! I thought it would barely become warm under operation.


Switching subject; when I ordered the Dorian QCTP to Matt we agreed that it would have the T-nut machined to fit the lathe. That is because I don't have access to a mill.
Turns out : the Dorian T-nut was left blank, not only that but the preferred package QCTP is missing. 

So I have a superb Dorian QCTP right under my nose but can't use it, pretty funny!!

Would someone here be willing to machine the blank for me ? I have measured the T-slot in the compound.


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## tino_ale (Oct 6, 2014)

Well, installation went well !



















Still need to make the feet properly, then level and tweak everything nicely.


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## BVH (Oct 6, 2014)

Looks like you really hugged the wall. Do you have enough space to remove the electrical box cover, see in there and get your hands in there to be able to troubleshoot and possibly repair the relays etc? I had a need to do that right off the bat. If it sits high enough as it is, you could buy an inexpensive low-profile floor jack and use a heavy metal plate under the stands to move it out if you had to but then you're looking at having to level it again.


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## tino_ale (Oct 6, 2014)

I have enough clearance to open the door. Working inside would be a PITA but doable. I really have no more shop space to spare. If I need to, I'll have to move it.

I have found that moving the tailstock+carriage to the extreme right, if you lift using the first to second bed "bridge" in the middle, lifting just enough so the tailstock end will lift and the headstock will move if you give it a push.

I have made a lifting wooden fixture that goes under the bed and locks into place (can't rotate, and the lifting belt won't touch anything just like you see on the pics) but you have to lift the tailstock end first otherwise it won't fit under the bed.


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## tino_ale (Oct 9, 2014)

Ok, some report after a TIR measurement session.

First, the spindle nose.
1. At the "nose" taper OD, TIR measures 0.00071"
2. At spindle OD, TIR 0.00051"
3. At inner taper, TIR 0.00035"

Nose and OD measurements were not the easiest as the ground surface isn't that smooth, the dial indicator was jumping around, I had to turn the spindle really slow.
The inner taper was smoother, and as you can see, the best TIR of the spindle.

I then proceeded with the 3 jaw chuck. I first wanted to try all 3 cam lock positions, but couldn't as only one position fits. I have tried unscrewing the studs a bit as suggested but it didn't change anything. I have tried relocating the studs but it didn't make a difference either. My guess is the back plate is the culpit.

So what I did is try all 3 positions of the chuck on the backplate instead. A slower process but probably worth it :
position 1 : chuck OD TIR : 0.00078
position 2 : TIR 0.00059
position 3 : TIR 0.0011

I chose position 2 and marked the backplate and chuck OD for future reference.

Finally I moved onto the actual chuck TIR.
I used a US made solid carbide spotting drill, it is ground to a polish finish and my micrometer can't pick a discrepency in roundness.
I have tried all 3 positions of the jaws on the chuck, and for each, tightening with all 3 tightening bolts. That's 9 different TIR.
At first I didn't think the bolt would make a difference but it did !
- As much as twice the TIR on the bolt choice alone.
- As much as FOUR times on the jaws position only.
9 possibilities ranged from TIR 0.00078 up to 0.0039

So I end up with a TIR just shy of 0.0008" (close to the chuck, and using a 3/8" drill).
Seems like I have a very decent chuck TIR (especially for a chinese 3-jaw chuck) but I was unimpressed by the spindle runout.


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## precisionworks (Oct 10, 2014)

You may want to pick up a short piece of Thomson 60 Case shafting & check the TIR farther out from the chuck face. Something around 12" (300mm) is a good length & 1" (25mm) diameter works well for the chuck size you have. 

Thomson 60 Case shaft roundness varies by class:

roundness is within 0.000080” (2 micron) for Class L, S, D, M 
and within .000050” (1.25 micron) for Class N 

You'll probably find different results as the indicator is moved farther from the chuck face.


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## wquiles (Oct 13, 2014)

Congrats on the new lathe !!!




precisionworks said:


> You may want to pick up a short piece of Thomson 60 Case shafting & check the TIR farther out from the chuck face.


+1

A must have to check and/or adjust a chuck


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## tino_ale (Oct 13, 2014)

Yep I need a precision shaft.

If I test the chuck TIR both near the jaws and further out, on which should you rely to get the best alignment result ? I have already found the best chuck position for the TIR close to the jaws. What more can I do ?


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## precisionworks (Oct 13, 2014)

tino_ale said:


> Yep I need a precision shaft.
> 
> If I test the chuck TIR both near the jaws and further out, on which should you rely to get the best alignment result ? I have already found the best chuck position for the TIR close to the jaws. What more can I do ?


It all depends on the type of work you are trying to do. If working on a 4" (100mm) long flashlight body you want the TIR to be minimal along the entire length. If working right at the chuck face the TIR is already as good as it can get. You'll have to work with it and test it at various points.


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## tino_ale (Oct 16, 2014)

Proceeded to break the cross slide and compound slide down to the bold, clean, oil and reassemble. Also removed the darn paint where is was not supposed to be.

What I found was not as bad as what I saw in the headstock (still can't believe all the crap that was in there) but still, found some crude.
Found out my cross slide lead screw is slightly bent, it wobbles when turned free. But I can't feel it when everything is reassembled.























One of the nipple oiler ball won't sping back up full to close position. Can't see what's wrong with it, maybe the spring... is there an easy way to replace thos nipple oilers ?

Other than that, nothing really noticable. I did not proceed with the carriage disassembly, probably won't, I have to stop somewhere. Still need to take the tailstock apart and align it.


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## precisionworks (Oct 16, 2014)

tino_ale said:


> ... need to take the tailstock apart and align it.


You may want to check the procedure in this well written article (73 years old but some things never change): http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...=M4aWqJQoXeAlHw7-426Nbg&bvm=bv.77648437,d.aWw


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## BVH (Oct 16, 2014)

I had about 25% of my oiler balls not return with practically no pressure on them being applied. Definitely a very weak point on these machines. IIRC, I think my cross slide screw wobbled a bit also.


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## tino_ale (Oct 16, 2014)

BVH said:


> I had about 25% of my oiler balls not return with practically no pressure on them being applied. Definitely a very weak point on these machines. IIRC, I think my cross slide screw wobbled a bit also.


Have you found a solution for the oilers or just left them alone ? I'm just concerned swarf will eventually get in there.

I have not even finished setting up that machine that I can already see some issues, some of which are really silly :
- INCREDIBLY dirty headstock full of metal particles, even in the top perimeter channel that FEEDS the main bearings with oil was bad. Another way to say it : if you want to mess the bearings, just run the lathe out of the box. The oil I have changed I can guarantee wasn't new. There wasn't just LOTS of particles and casting sand, the oil itself was coffee dark. Not at all what people report from subsequent oil changes even after the lathe has run for a year. Bottom line is the factory throws some used oil in the machines they sell.
Cleaning all that crap out is a tedious task, and the result can't be as good as if all parts were cleaned prior to assembly.
At some point I simply wished they delivered the headstock unassembled and just let me do it.
- no practical lifting feature or hole to insert a bar in for easy, balanced lift.
- some silly bolt location, beginning with the bed bolt-down holes, some of them are unnecessary hard to reach, can hardly get a wrench to grab the bold faces
- terrible paint job, some paint mist all over the place. Paint chipped or missing in a few spots. Job done fast and dirty with no attention to details whatsoever.
- bad quality nipple oilers
- fragile and inconvenient gears cover
- poor stand (lack of rigidity) and really silly bolt holes locations (a good push can rock the machine, barely safe enough IMO)

I have a limited experience with the machine's precision, but definitely I can see it has potential (just look at what some other members achieve here to be convinced).
After a good clean, tweak and setup of everything, the annoying stuff is fading away, at least some of it.
I'm not disappointed overall, I knew I was buying a chinese machine... and I got what I've paid for.


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## precisionworks (Oct 16, 2014)

tino_ale said:


> - INCREDIBLY dirty headstock full of metal particles, ... There wasn't just LOTS of particles and casting sand, the oil itself was coffee dark.


Possibly soy sauce.



> - no practical lifting feature or hole to insert a bar in for easy, balanced lift.


That's seen mostly on 14"+ machines.



> After a good clean, tweak and setup of everything, the annoying stuff is fading away,


Don't get complacent, you'll be working on the machine as long as you own it. That's based not only on my machine but also the machines at the community college where I teach. All machine tools wear with use & the less expensive ones seem to wear faster. One example - we have an almost brand new Ganesh GMV-3 milling machine & the head sounds like a Bridgeport that's been run hard for 20 years. X & Y have similar wear so climb cutting is forbidden, etc.

Many lathes, mine included, have a connection between the cross slide/cross slide nut/cross slide screw that looks like the image below (dark colored allen head bolt):










The bolt to cross slide fit on mine was sloppy & created about half a turn of dead space on the dial. I machined a press fit sleeve & bored it for minimum fit so the screw would just slide through - now the backlash is only one fourth as much:





The diagram of the machine shows a split nut that's tightened to reduce backlash but it looked like an all day job to get that done. Sometimes good enough is good enough.


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## darkzero (Oct 16, 2014)

Sounds like you are pretty diassapointed with your purchase with all the stuff you've mentioned. Most are minor IMHO but also varies from machine to machine, lot to lot. Like Barry said, you will always be working on your machines, whether it's maintenance, improvements, or repair. Very few conventional lathes & mills are made in USA anymore but even though that won't solve any problems, made in USA doesn't mean the same as it was then. Todays age is CNC maching but of course that doesn't mean there is not a need for conventional anymore, just a smaller market than there was decades ago.

If you want less of the issues, you'd have to buy Taiwan made & easily have to spend 3 times or more. But still there will be "issues", nothing will be perfect unless you're rich & can afford to pay for something closer to it. When I buy made in China, I expect what I expect & when I want less/minimal issue I'll pay the price.

Funny, my local community college had purchased a full size Ganesh mill as they are local to us. None of the students ever got to use it much cause it was always broken down. Rudy, the tool room guy as well as my instructor at the time (now retired), hated that thing. Rudy was always having to work on it. The one Sharp they had was very nice to use. I only used the worn BPs & it was challenging at first to use them as I had to get familiar with how each one of them behaved.


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## tino_ale (Oct 17, 2014)

I don't feel how I sound. Reason is, it is one thing to be "aware" of the various to-be-expected issues of a chinese machine, even having seen pictures in advance, it is another to see it with you own eyes. I'm a perfectionnist so some of those things just hurt my eyes and get my face red no matter how "aware" I was beforehand. That is why I may sound like disappointed, but trust me I am not. I am just borderline having mental issues with consistency. :duh2:
In the list of issues I've mentionned, more than half is either cosmetic or only valid one time at the setup stage, I know that. And I will be working on everything that remains to make the most out of that machine (a new stand might become reality in the future, but as I have no access to welding equipment, it'll probably take a while to find a way to achieve that).

The frustration increases also when I fail to see how much is actually saved in terms of mfg costs doing it the silly way. For example, not cleaning the headstock casting before throwing all the gears in there, making it a PITA to just try to clean it afterwards. How much would a cleaning step cost ?? Once again I agree it is in the end minor, as it is a one time issue. Future oil changes will be much cleaner and the whole headstock will be rinsed over time. Rant over.

Bottom line is machine tools are wicked expensive, period. My friends can't understand how I could possibly drop several thousand euros on a very specific machine, and the tooling for it, why the heck I would do that. Telling them this is actually a cheap machine for it's size on the scale of things and watching their faces is simply funny.

Actually before ordering that 1236, I hesitated for a long long time with a Wabeco D6000. A completely different animal. I traded fit and finish and compacity for (a lot) more capacity/weight/rigidity/features and that for less money. I would have had probably less if not none of the issues I've mentionned with the wabeco, yet, I have no second thought I made the right choice.:thumbsup:


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## precisionworks (Oct 17, 2014)

> For example, not cleaning the headstock casting before throwing all the gears in there, making it a PITA to just try to clean it afterwards. How much would a cleaning step cost ??


The short answer is too much.

All Chinese built machine tools, whether a million euro CNC machining center or a PM1236, are built to quote. A number of manufacturers quote the job & the lowest bidder that meets all specs gets the work. China is fully capable of making machine tools equal to the best American, European or Japanese brands but the cost is almost the same. At this point in time they concentrate their efforts on the lower cost/lower margin machines. 

Five more minutes to clean out the headstock casting would almost certainly get the worker fired. As would four, three, two & probably one. Many assembly workers were farmers earlier in their lifetime & have little knowledge of the what & why.

As long as you remember it's a kit needing final assembly you'll have the least stressful mindset. As the carton says "batteries not included".


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## tino_ale (Oct 17, 2014)

Received the machined Dorian T-nut for my lathe :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

What a piece of kit this Dorian QCTP is ! I went splurge with that, I know, wasn't necessary really but it is a long term investment. I plan on transferring the tooling to the next machine, whenever and if ever I switch to another one.


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## tino_ale (Oct 19, 2014)

First attempt at Ti

I'm pretty pleased with how Ti machines. It comes out slick and shinny! Ran around 100 rpm, used cutting oil, tried to avoid too shallow cuts.

Only problem I have (not only on Ti) and stlll haven't sorted out is the OD finish I get. I still need to make better feet for my stand, could be that, right now the cabinet vibrates when running.

I have lots of vibration on my machine. If I keep the crossfeed's gib a little loose it will vibrate while the machine is running (DRO shows it).
I tried running without the feed/thread gearbox engaged, didn't make any noticeable difference.
Then I tried disengaging the spindle, setting a knob between two speed settings. Do my surprise, didn't change much either !
Conclusion : most of the noise and vibration comes from the motor and/or first pulley assembly.

Is there anything I can do besides swapping out the motor for a better unit ? Would a better belt make a difference ?

Also one more question : there is a set screw that pushes a small pin, in the middle of the compound gib. Is that supposed to be an additional mean to adjust the gib tension or is that a compound lock ? Am I supposed to lock the compound when not in use ?

cheers


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## StrikerDown (Oct 19, 2014)

The belt on my mill was a huge POS. Try running the motor without the belt, if the motor runs smooth you have it eliminated, if it is smooth try Power twist belts. That simple change made a huge difference in the surface finish on my mill. My lathe seems fine with the Chinese belts so far but I will be changing them soon anyway.

The Power Twist belts sound a little noisy when first installed buy they quiet down considerably as they break in, but the surface finish improvement was immediate when I put them on.


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## tino_ale (Oct 20, 2014)

Thanks for the tip. I've been trying to remove the belts pulley (the one on the gearbox side, not the one on the motor that looks like it is press fit) but it is stuck.

I'm not sure I can remove the belts without removing the pulley first, need to find an extractor or something.

Right now I know it is not the spindle and not the feed/threading gearbox that generates the most of the noise and vibrations. Thats a good thing. If I could narrow it down to either the motor or the belts, would be even better.

StrikerDown when you say changing the belt improved the surface finish, how dramatic was that ? the finish I got on OD titanium is plain weird, look at the pattern !


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## BVH (Oct 20, 2014)

With the motor loose and up as far as it will go without removing the bolts, I have to progressively roll each of the two belts off the headstock pulley. It's "do-able" but watch your fingers! I, too, went to the power twist belts and I think I got a small level of finish improvement. Separate and at a different time, I ended up with a failed headstock input shaft tail bearing which accounted for an "always rough no matter what" surface finish and an ever louder rhythmic noise.


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## precisionworks (Oct 20, 2014)

It sounds like you may have excess play in the bearings. The manual describes pre load adjustment & you will want to go through the procedure carefully to make sure the bearings are neither too loose nor too tight.


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## tino_ale (Oct 20, 2014)

BVH said:


> With the motor loose and up as far as it will go without removing the bolts, I have to progressively roll each of the two belts off the headstock pulley. It's "do-able" but watch your fingers! I, too, went to the power twist belts and I think I got a small level of finish improvement. Separate and at a different time, I ended up with a failed headstock input shaft tail bearing which accounted for an "always rough no matter what" surface finish and an ever louder rhythmic noise.


Got it, actually I could just remove the belts without even moving the motor. I think my pulleys must be too loose.
Besides, are we supposed to change belts like that ? Are we not supposed to be able to pull either of the pulley on the motor and/or the headstock side ?
Changing the motor position each time you change belt position 1 or 2 doesn't sound too convenient ?

So, I could run the motor alone : yes it vibrates the whole lathe a LOT and is very noisy.
I am not familiar with how a motor should run, I have not seen other run, how silent should it be ?
Anyway this one just seems too gritty and noisy to be right.
There is definitely a lot to gain if I can get a smooth running motor.
I need to read more about VFD, that might just be a sign that I need to go with it 



precisionworks said:


> It sounds like you may have excess play in the bearings. The manual describes pre load adjustment & you will want to go through the procedure carefully to make sure the bearings are neither too loose nor too tight.


I placed a dial indicator on the chuck OD above the centerline, placed my hands below the chuck and pulled the chuck up as hard as I could.
I get the needle to move 0.0001"
Same procedure on the left side, got less movement, maybe half of that.
Are those numbers looking good ?

I went through the manual and did not find the procedure you are referring to. Will search online.


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## precisionworks (Oct 20, 2014)

tino_ale said:


> I placed a dial indicator on the chuck OD above the centerline, placed my hands below the chuck and pulled the chuck up as hard as I could. I get the needle to move 0.0001" Same procedure on the left side, got less movement, maybe half of that. Are those numbers looking good ?



Use a good sized solid round bar, 37mm-50mm should work, and 400mm long. Push down & pull up at the end of the bar to check end play. 



> went through the manual and did not find the procedure you are referring to.


http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/general-archive/setting-pe-load-lathe-spindle-bearings-81612/


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## tino_ale (Oct 20, 2014)

precisionworks said:


> Use a good sized solid round bar, 37mm-50mm should work, and 400mm long. Push down & pull up at the end of the bar to check end play.


Ok, just did exactly that. 40mm rod, grabbed 400mm away from the chuck.
DI above the centerline, tip on the spindle (the cam lock zone).

I get about 0.0003" in the down direction; a little less around 0.0002 up. That makes sense, as it is easier for me tu push down than pull up. So 0.0005" overall.
Looks normal to you ?

I tried the "spin" test by hand, I barely get a full turn after I spin. There is definitely some drag there. I could test the "stick" stopped drag torque with a torque wrench, what's enough to start spinning the spindle, but wouldn't know what to do with the number I find out :ironic:

I will try later on the heat test (will try 20 min at full speed) and touch the spindle at the cam lock portion, see if it's cold, warm or hot... But what I have seen so far doesn't really sound like I have a loose spindle bearing.

My loud and un-smooth motor worries me more


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## precisionworks (Oct 21, 2014)

Try removing the belts & motor sheave & turn the motor shaft by hand. A new motor should turn with slight resistance & the feel should be silky smooth - if the shaft turns hard or doesn't turn smoothly all the way around the bearings are probably the culprit. You can replace the bearings yourself if you have an arbor press or take it to a motor shop & have them do it - about $50 USD. 

If the motor passes the hand turning test try running the motor with the belts & sheave removed. It should be very quiet & you should feel no vibration when touching the motor shell with your gloved hand. If there's significant vibration the rotor is likely unbalanced - you can balance it yourself or take it to a motor shop. 

If there's no vibration with the sheave off try it again with the sheave installed. It's not uncommon for a cast iron sheave to be unbalanced & you can balance it yourself on the lathe or buy a new one from a motor shop or online. 

If there's no vibration with the sheave on try installing the belts & running the machine. You'll find the problem as there are few potential sources - bearings, rotor, sheave, belts. It could be only one or it may be a combination of 2, 3 or 4 issues. None are expensive or difficult to fix.


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## tino_ale (Oct 21, 2014)

Yep, first thing first, I have ordered a gear extractor to remove the sheave (and the gears that are stuck). I hope it won't prove too hard to remove.

I have already narrowed it down to the motor + sheave. I hope it is the sheave, I have no press to work on the motor and have not the slightest idea of shops that could do that over here. even if that service is available I'm pretty sure it won't be $50.


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## tino_ale (Oct 21, 2014)

Reporting some more investigation :

I tried again the motor alone with it's sheave. No belt attached.
I noticed this :
- by hand, it is very easy to turn, no noticeable grit feeling, smooth (but not entirely silent ?? maybe normal, I speculate I hear the balls running in the bearing)
- when turned on, the somehow loud humming is back along with the vibration
- I feel vibration on the motor itself. The lathe not that much. The stand, a lot. The stand acts like a resonator of some kind.
- as soon as I stop the motor power, the humming and *the vibration stops. *Then the motor continue to turn freely, for about 5 seconds. During that time, I only hear what I think is the bearings running, but the machine is silent otherwise and vibration free.

What does that mean ??

Could this be electrical entirely ? This is getting weird!! The problem (or what I think is a problem) only exist when the motor is on.


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## tino_ale (Oct 21, 2014)

Made a video (a sound's worth a thouthand words) demonstrating the motor noise spinned by hand, then powered on then coasting. Sheave on, no belt.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qocXTci7Fis

Notice how much louder it is when the power is on compared to coasting freely.
There's a funny noise also, that engages only during the last 2-3 seconds of spinning. You can hear that very clearly.


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## BVH (Oct 21, 2014)

The noise you're hearing is in all probability, the Capacitor "engagement", "dis-engagement" flyweight mechanism. The two flyweight fingers rub against a thrust plate of sorts (this is the noise) that gets forced out with increasing RPM until capacitor contact with with motor power is terminated. When my vibration first arose, Matt advised to change the motor bearings which I did. They were fine before the change and didn't need it but since it was apart and I had better bearings, I changed them. It made no difference in my case. Noise and vibration was still there due to the failed tail bearing. He then sent me a motor and obviously this made no difference, too. Both motors make the same amount of noise when spun by hand. Once the bearing was changed out, all was well with the world. I'm not saying this is your problem, just giving my experience.


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## precisionworks (Oct 21, 2014)

BVH said:


> ... Noise and vibration was still there due to the failed tail bearing.


You'll want to check every possibility between the power plug & the chuck. Try reducing preload as the spindle bearings may be too tight.


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## tino_ale (Oct 22, 2014)

Whats your opinion on my motor noise when powered on ?


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## precisionworks (Oct 22, 2014)

Try checking motor amp draw:

with belt removed
with belt installed & chuck spinning
with belt installed, chuck spinning & making a heavy cut
No load amps should be about 1/3 to 1/2 of full load amps. 

Also check both the starting cap & the running cap using a DMM with capacitor check function.


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## BVH (Oct 22, 2014)

The noise immediately after power-down and before the "click" of the capacitor mechanism does not sound normal to me.

Here's my motor running with only the input shaft engaged, no other headstock gears/shafts turning: There is belt noise audible. Listen right after power-down and the belt noise stands out so you can exclude it from the steady hum of the motor. (If you time it right, you can listen to both running at one time)



 spindle by hand





BVH


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## tino_ale (Oct 22, 2014)

THANKS BVH for those valuable date points.

The belt noise makes it a little harder to identify the motor noise alone but your "coasting" sound different, as well as the "ON" noise.
I also notice that you have less difference between the ON and coasting than I have (stronger "humming" when powered on, for mine).

I've enquired Matt about that, waiting for his reply.

Lastly, it looks like we have a very very close spindle preload.
If I open the jaws more and "grab" one of them protuding out of the chuck body, I can spin it up to one full turn after I release it. (watch your hands if you try that).
If I grab the spindle the way you do, I spin it and it stops just like yours, in less than a turn. Not only that but quite exactly in the same position as yours (I'm eyeballing the black key holes).
Thanks to you I now know for a fact I have a normal spindle preload :thumbsup:


Edit : forgot to ask you : how hot does the motor get after it has been running for a while ? Warm to the touch or too hot to hold ?
Mine went as high as 200°F during the break-in process (meaning, no machining going on).


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## BVH (Oct 22, 2014)

I've never shot it with the temp gun but IIRC, it would be painful to leave my hand on it after running a while. Even for a few seconds.


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## tino_ale (Oct 23, 2014)

Got it :thumbsup:


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## tino_ale (Nov 3, 2014)

FIY I had an email exchange with Matt, finally decided to upgrade to a 2HP Hitachi VFD with a 2HP 3-phase Leeson motor :naughty:
The lathe is still usable as it is, but when I have the time, I'll do the upgrade with a pot at the front panel.

Investigating those motor issues, I found an oil leak at the back of the pulley arbor.
Disassembled the whole gears section.
Cleaned every single part.
Blasted the gears and parts (I didn't like the way they looked )
Fixed the leak and reassembled.

I don't think my gear assy will ever look as neat again !














I gave a shot at machining brass. Alloy is free cutting brass (alloy 360).
What a blast ! super easy to machine, nice little chips, finishes really well, shiny and sharp look.
I loved it !
Made a replacement "knob". Much less play in it now. If I like the way it looks after some tarnish, I'll do the same for all the levers/commands of my lathe. Kind of a cool way to identify where the functional parts are.
The part is turned, blasted, then turned again to get the shiny rings/bevels.


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## tino_ale (Nov 17, 2014)

Hi guys,
Maybe that'll sound like a really basic question, but how do you clean your lathe on the regular basis ?

I am not using coolant (yet) but WD40 or cutting oil instead. So all the small chips stick to just about every oily surface there is to be found, and stay there. Wiping them off is not only time consuming but also harsh on the paint as I have sharp chips dragged along the surface I'm trying to clean. As they are oily, they can't be easily blown off with compressed air nor can they be sucked in with a shop vac.

I'm thinking with coolant it must be much easier to just rince everything, evacuating all the chips even the smalest ones (brass sometimes makes almost dust) then wipe dry and then relube.
Is that actually the case ?
Is there another way without coolant ?


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## BVH (Nov 17, 2014)

Dark Zero is the one to reply here. I hear he regularly eats off of his equipment, it's so clean. Secretly, I think he has two of everything - one is used, the other just sits in brand new, never used condition and that's the one he photographs when needed. 

I use the water-based air mist blue coolant many use here but brush applied so my chips are slightly oily. I use surgeons gloves and collect the big stuff with my hands. Then I use my dedicated shop vac for the stuff that will break loose and get sucked up. Then I use the cheap terry cloth Costco rags for the rough roundup of the small chips. Finally, I use the wonderful Honda Spray cleaner on a Costco microfiber cloth for final cleaning. I don't find that this method scratches any paint and it smells great when I'm done.


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## gt40 (Nov 17, 2014)

I for one would also like to know Dark Zero's secret... I tend to make so many chips I vacuum up with a shop vac and blow it off when the piles start to interfere with movement. Then I spray a light coating of oil on the ways and such. I use mist cooling from a diy rig I built for cooling. better than wd40 which smokes and is expensive.


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## darkzero (Nov 17, 2014)

Ha! Secrets I will never tell!


















But if you really really really really really want to know.....


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## tino_ale (Nov 17, 2014)

Do tell !!


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## darkzero (Nov 17, 2014)

But I can not, they're secrets! A magician never......

Ok, I'll think about (really not much different than anyone else's method)....... well when I get home. :laughing:


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## precisionworks (Nov 17, 2014)

Sometimes I run MQL & most of that lube sprays off into outer space & onto my safety glasses. A small amount drips under the chuck. For closed ops (drilling, reaming, boring, etc.) the tool & part are flooded with Relton Rapid Tap & a decent puddle ends up on the cross slide. Either way:

Using high pressure air (mine is set to 100 psi) blow the oil off the machine, toward the rear splash panel. Gravity takes it to the catch tray under the machine. Blow the black oil (from reaming aluminum or titanium) in the same direction. Blow off the tool holders the same way as each is pulled from the tool post.
Still using high pressure air blow the chips toward the rear splash panel. A face shield doesn't hurt & ear plugs (or muffs) keep chips out of the ears.
Wipe the ways clean with paper toweling & apply Vactra #2.
Press the green button & get back to work



> ... harsh on the paint as I have sharp chips dragged along the surface I'm trying to clean.


My lathe probably had paint at one time but it's totally gone from most areas. It seems to work just as well without the paint. Unless the machine is used as a piece of furniture in which case you can have custom slip covers made 

Two minutes because I was filming - normally one minute 

Http://youtu.be/jejAfSt8zx4


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## wquiles (Nov 18, 2014)

darkzero said:


> Ha! Secrets I will never tell!
> 
> 
> 
> ...




It is an easy mystery to solve - Will simply took like 10-15 pictures of the lathe when it was new/clean, and he uses them as needed. That last photo (lathe clean) is just one of those photos from a long time ago, not a recent picture :naughty:


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## darkzero (Nov 18, 2014)

wquiles said:


> It is an easy mystery to solve - Will simply took like 10-15 pictures of the lathe when it was new/clean, and he uses them as needed. That last photo (lathe clean) is just one of those photos from a long time ago, not a recent picture :naughty:



Damnit, I have been exposed! I'll have to find new tricks now!


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## wquiles (Nov 19, 2014)

darkzero said:


> Damnit, I have been exposed! I'll have to find new tricks now!



Of course we make fun because we admire how neat and clean your lathe looks. Mine works as great as it did when I got it, but most of the paint is now gone, so it does not "look" in great shape. But I don't worry since that lathe has made me enough money to pay for it already, so it has served me well, and it still has a lot of good years of service ahead


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## precisionworks (Nov 19, 2014)

All my spindle tooling (3-jaw/4-jaw/5C/faceplate) is nice & clean. Same goes for tailstock tooling (1" Super Chuck & 1/2" Super Chuck/half a dozen live centers). Tool holders too, 26 at last count, give or take. Everything else is cosmetic. Headstock, tailstock & tool determine the success or failure of a job.


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## las3r (Nov 20, 2014)

What i use on Rust is vinegar mixed with water or just vinegar for faster reaction, dont get it on paint because it will eat it away  and do not keep it on the rust for a long time


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## tino_ale (Nov 22, 2014)

First project that kinda want to show off... a brass Top!
Got it spinning for 6 min on a glass plate


















Got a cheap knurler off eBay, but I'm amazed how well it works on brass


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## wquiles (Nov 23, 2014)

That is AWESOME - good job man


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## tino_ale (Nov 23, 2014)

Thanks 

Some more brass work : a tiny jewelry box


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## tino_ale (Nov 24, 2014)

Which one do you prefer ?

Stock ?





Or home made

























Eventually, all the controls knobs will be replaced in brass. Color will indicate the lever holds a function.
Totally unnecessary but since I'm a beginner, it is good practice!


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## StrikerDown (Nov 24, 2014)

T,

I really like the idea of all brass knobs, except for the keeping them shinny brass part!

The last picture scares to hell out of me though! You will get in the habit of removing the chuck wrench the first time you turn the lathe on with it still in the chuck! If you are lucky it won't hit somebody! 
I did it once and it hit the concrete just below the radiator of my car! The lathe was set on max RPM so it didn't spin up very quickly or it could have had a lot more velocity and left the chuck sooner or about radiator or windshield high!

I've since got in the habit of never taking my hand off of it unless it is where it belongs.


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## tino_ale (Nov 25, 2014)

The brass parts will tarnish and get patina for sure, but I don't think I will mind. It is C38000 brass and to be honnest I don't know exactly how it tarnishes over time. Old machine are sometimes covered in patina and almost polished from use yet they look fantastic IMO. We'll see if my PM1236 will ever get to that point!

I leave the T-wrench like that sometimes, but it is always in the way of the chuck cover and the machine can't start without it being fully down.
But you're right, I'm going to pay attention to never leaving it there. Where there is room for error there is room for accident. Better get used to the best practice right away.


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## StrikerDown (Nov 27, 2014)

Often wondered why my PM 14x40 did not come with a safety cover, it would help keep tho oil off the wall... And ceiling!


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## darkzero (Nov 27, 2014)

I got sick of the chuck safety cover real quick, took that stupid thing off & tossed it in the trash. Well not really, it's stored in right side lathe cabinet. But yeah for me it just gets in the way & slows me down. Taking it off made a huge difference.


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## precisionworks (Nov 27, 2014)

Same thing here. Half the machines at the college where I teach have those darned covers & even with the cover raised up I manage to bang my head on them a lot. If it were up to me those covers would get disappeared but sadly I am NOT the final authority LOL.
____________________________________________________

We were discussing lathe cleanliness a few posts back & this is how I collect chips & oil (Relton Rapid Tap). If you've ever kept a canary or other caged bird it's the same approach:







First, put down one or two layers of paper toweling. The place a chip tray (aka cookie pan) as close as possible to the chuck so that most chips are gravity fed into the tray. What misses the tray hits the paper toweling so chip & oil cleanup is fast.


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## darkzero (Nov 27, 2014)

precisionworks said:


> We were discussing lathe cleanliness a few posts back



Here's one of my so called "secrets". I use 3M premasked films for whenever I'm sanding/final finishing. Just pull a piece off & tape to the backsplash. I believe 3M discontinued the size I'm using but I stocked up on them when all the local hardware stores were closing out the refills for dirt cheap. Just have to make sure the power feed rod or leadscrew are not engaged or you'll have a fruit roll up.

I normally use my stock 3 jaw chuck for sanding/polishing though.






EDIT: Here's a better pic.


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## precisionworks (Nov 28, 2014)

That's a scary looking image of the Jacobs chuck part in a jawed chuck. I use my jawed chucks (3-jaw & 4-jaw) for some work but switch to the 5C whenever machining close to the chuck:





(SWM V10R Ti head shown above, cutting down to remove the engraving)

Accuracy is higher, support is much better & it's almost impossible to scratch or mar the part. After machining it's dead safe to touch the part with 600 grit paper or a nonwoven pad ... while the part is spinning at 2000 rpm.

On top of that there are at least three workholding options:

5C collet as shown above 
Internal expanding 5C collet 
Expanding straight shank arbor, usable in any chuck
 
If that weren't enough and adjustable stop can be fitted to any 5C collet if a number of the same parts are being machined. I'm partial to Breakheart Tools & use much of the tooling they sell. Made in USA, great customer service. http://www.breakhearttool.com/products


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## darkzero (Nov 28, 2014)

precisionworks said:


> That's a scary looking image of the Jacobs chuck part in a jawed chuck. I use my jawed chucks (3-jaw & 4-jaw) for some work but switch to the 5C whenever machining close to the chuck



Yup I know but I made out fine rebuilding my 3 14N chucks. Good luck trying to fit the piece shown in a 5C collet chuck though, it's 1.75"Ø. I made out fine although I normally use my China 3 jaw for polishing bigger stuff (just a quick polish & my Bison will be getting a thorough cleaning soon anyway). 








My 3 "now new" Made in Hartford CT 14N BB chucks (no way I'm buying the overshore made new ones).






They were are in need of a "rebuild", only replaced the jaws on one of them, the others just clean & regrease.



















precisionworks said:


> I'm partial to Breakheart Tools & use much of the tooling they sell. Made in USA



Yup, nice stuff, I've used some of their stuff but don't own anything from them myself, not yet anyway. I've only had my eye on their expanding arbor set & could have used it plenty of times already. Keep forgetting to place an order, thanks for the reminder. Their sets are priced very well too, what's funny is the last time I looked, the import sets cost more than what Breakheart is selling them for. :thinking: :laughing:


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## darkzero (Nov 28, 2014)

Well since this was a double post & I can't delete it, might as well make use of the space....




precisionworks said:


> adjustable stop can be fitted to any 5C collet if a number of the same parts are being machined.



I don't own any 5C collets, been fine without them & just use ER collets in my lathe. Maybe one day if I score a Sjorgen/Atlas collet chuck for cheap.

This is what I use for a spindle work stop, made by Yuasa. Mounts inside the spindle bore & I can use it with any of my jaw chucks or collet chuck & I can make new/custom size stop rods for it too if/when needed. Takes longer to set up but I'm pretty happy with it.


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## will (Nov 28, 2014)

Just a quick thought concerning plastic sheeting or paper towels on the lathe ways to keep them clean. At some point in time, cutting something that does not chip, but rather comes off in a 'coil' 

that coil will eventually catch the sheets on the ways and spin them like you have never seen...

be careful....


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## darkzero (Nov 28, 2014)

IMO bird's nesting is worse but yup, I saw a guy attach a retractable roller window blind or something to protect the ways from chips & thought the same thing. "Normal" chips don't bother me at all. I only use the masking film for sanding & polishing (by hand), carriage is far off to the side. 

Only other time I cover the ways (when machining) is for cast iron or removing the outer scale on hot rolled. I normally use an old t-shirt but if I don't have one available I'll resort to whatever is around.


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## precisionworks (Nov 28, 2014)

Whenever I ream a light (aluminum or Ti) one paper towel lays on top of the compound. The reason is that Relton Rapid Tap is pumped into the bore & the reamer is flooded as well. I go through a lot of Rapid Tap although it takes less than Tap Magic. Much of the fluid ends up on top of the compound & the paper towel makes it quick to clean up.


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## will (Nov 28, 2014)

Paper towels are better than cloth, Paper will tear into pieces fairly easily, Cloth - not so much.

( and yes - this is experience talking )


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## darkzero (Nov 29, 2014)

precisionworks said:


> Much of the fluid ends up on top of the compound & the paper towel makes it quick to clean up.



I do the same thing using those blue shop towels to catch the excess lube coming off the knurling wheels for threading.




will said:


> Paper towels are better than cloth, Paper will tear into pieces fairly easily, Cloth - not so much.



I never cover the ways for materials that produce long chips, don't see a reason too. I only cover for cast iron, hot roll scale, fiber resins, etc, anything that turns to powder that can get into the carriage & cross slide ways.


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## precisionworks (Nov 29, 2014)

darkzero said:


> I never cover the ways for materials that produce long chips, don't see a reason too. I only cover for cast iron, hot roll scale, fiber resins, etc, anything that turns to powder that can get into the carriage & cross slide ways.


I've never been able to figure out how any foreign material can get into those places. Perhaps if you clean with high pressure air (which I do), run abrasive paper & non-woven against parts (do that too) or run the machine ways dry ... which I do NOT.

IMHO the best protection for the lathe is a constant coat of Vactra #2. Wet ways catch anything that falls onto them - wipe off with paper towel, apply more #2, repeat as needed. 

Dry or semi dry ways are the death sentence for a lathe. A 5-gallon bucket of Vactra lasts quite a while, even when constantly re applying.

My Vactra is in a 1-quart Dutton Lainson Goldenrod pump can (flex spout). The Rapid Tap is in an identical pump can. Finally painted them different colors 

http://www.dutton-lainson.com/products.php?cat=50

If you cannot see overhead lighting reflected by the way oil you may need to add more. This image taken after running the lathe for an hour & sliding the TS back & forth many times:


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## darkzero (Nov 29, 2014)

precisionworks said:


> I've never been able to figure out how any foreign material can get into those places. Perhaps if you clean with high pressure air (which I do), run abrasive paper & non-woven against parts (do that too) or run the machine ways dry ... which I do NOT.



I see the opposite, I think all that fine dust can get in those places easily. Abrasive dust mixed with way oil makes instant lapping paste. CI powder mixed with oil turns into a slurry, one reason not to use cutting oil with CI. The carriage has wipers & they should do their job, but my cross slide & compound slide don't have wipers, neither does the tailstock (not so much worried about the TS). Still the slurry can get past wipers. My lathe came with rubber type wipers. Been meaning to try some felt wipers. With the chuck spinning it sucks this dust in too. I do use compressed air also but not close to areas where fine particles like what I take the time to protect from could get pushed in areas of concern. 

When the unwanted particles lands on the oiled ways, sure it can be just wiped off & reoiled but what do you when you are machining, with the carriage or cross slide moving back & forward? I know I can't protect all of it from getting in but I'll take the time to try & prevent much of it from having a chance of getting in unwanted places. Carbon Fiber, G10, fiberglass, etc gets nasty when mixed with way oil & really gums things up. Luckily I have not had the pleasure of having to disassemble parts to clean it out. I was taught to cover if I cared anything about the life of machine I'm using. I was taught to do it, not how. I'm certainly not the only one who practices this. Nothing is right or wrong here, people have their own methods in dealing with it, but the intent is the same.




precisionworks said:


> 1-quart Dutton Lainson Goldenrod pump can (flex spout).


I have one of those Goldenrods with a flex spout but only a 12oz'r. Really liked it at first but I quickly came to dislike it. That thing leaked like crazy, always sitting in a puddle of Vactra everytime I went to pick it up. Turns out my flex spout was poorly made & leaked in multiple areas, some clear silicone made it better. 

Finally I got a rigid spout for it, problem solved. I do have a replacement flex spout for it too but haven't tried it yet. Either they're not what they used to be or my flex spout was just defective. Others have reported this same issue & even leaking from the can, luckily mine does not. Between this Goldenrod & my other oilers, I'm happy. Just sucks that there's not a good selection of quality made oilers anymore.


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## tino_ale (Nov 29, 2014)

One thing I find weird if that a good wiper will basically push any oil that is present on the ways when the carriage is moved. It will leave the way surface almost dry. This is what I see on my lathe and I can't imagine being otherwise if the wipers, well, wipe efficiently.

Why doesn't the way lubrication rely on the nipple oilers alone ? It kinda makes sense to me that the lubrication is "contained" in the carriage. Besides rust protection, I see no advantage of oiling the ways any more than a light coat. Any massive coat gets wiped away and simply drips on the chip pan.


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## precisionworks (Nov 29, 2014)

tino_ale said:


> One thing I find weird if that a good wiper will basically push any oil that is present on the ways when the carriage is moved. It will leave the way surface almost dry. This is what I see on my lathe and I can't imagine being otherwise if the wipers, well, wipe efficiently.


As soon as the wipers wear in they stop being wipers & become pushers. All they do is push chips out of the way.



> ... I see no advantage of oiling the ways any more than a light coat. Any massive coat gets wiped away and simply drips on the chip pan.


What brand & type of way oil are you using? Vactra #2 easily lasts a full hour, sometimes more, with both the carriage & TS constantly being moved back & forth. The TS is really sensitive when no film is present & will let you know quickly that more way oil is needed. 

My TS has two positions - all the way at the far right end of the bed & all the way at the far left end of the bed. Most of the time it carries a heavy Jacobs #20 Super Chuck & the two together are quite a bit of weight. The carriage mostly stays within a few inches of the chuck & is only moved a long way when spindle tools are changed out (as in 3-jaw/5C/4-jaw/5C/faceplate/5C/etc.).


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## tino_ale (Nov 30, 2014)

Ok the explanation is that my wipers are new and wipe the ways clean and almost dry. Will see how they evolve after a while, but it makes sense they work that way, isn't it how they're supposed to be. In which case oiling heavily the ways make little sense.

My TS on the other hand has no wipers and there I can see how a good amount of oil helps it glide on it.


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## precisionworks (Dec 1, 2014)

tino_ale said:


> My TS on the other hand has no wipers and there I can see how a good amount of oil helps it glide on it.


Machined surfaces can last a long time as long as a film of oil separates the sliding elements. The first shop I worked in was 1970 & the machine shop manager, a real old timer, carried a pump oil can with him every where. When he saw a dry or near dry surface he fixed it. 

A big advantage of Vactra #2 is that Mobil states:


> Mobil Vactra Oil Numbered Series can be used for lubrication of _ballscrews, linear guides, headstocks, translating screws, spur and bevel gears, and lightly loaded worm gears_


And yes, it gets pumped into the apron, gear box, headstock, etc. of my lathe. If your lathe specs out something else by all means use what is recommended - which many times is Mobil DTE-26.

Vactra will NOT pump into any of the oil buttons on my machine & for that Mobil Velocite #10 is used. It's pretty thin, ISO VG22, but it pumps nicely & is a highly refined oil used in many machine tool applications. 

In the USA Mobil owns the machinery oil market.


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## darkzero (Dec 1, 2014)

tino_ale said:


> Ok the explanation is that my wipers are new and wipe the ways clean and almost dry.



Also depends on the type of wipers. Some machines use a rubber type, some use felt.




precisionworks said:


> Vactra will NOT pump into any of the oil buttons on my machine & for that Mobil Velocite #10 is used.



Generally what is recommended for the oilers for the carriage leadscrew & power feed shaft? I first used to pump Vactra for those rotating shafts but I felt like #2 was a bit thick? Now I pump DTE-26 into them. Is that fine or should I be using something else?


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## tino_ale (Nov 10, 2016)

Hi guys,

I have broken both ends of my Dorian SIGH19-2 blade, a $80 mistake.

I'm pretty sure I was doing everything right except for the squareness (0.015 out of square across the lenght of the blade, which doesn't seem much) maybe too low RPM and maybe to slow feed (it was kinda hard to plunge and didn't feel like pushing harder).
Part OD was only maybe 1/2", unknown steel that has a really ugly finish. Thus far this double failure is still largely unexplained.

As I still have SGTN-2 Dorian inserts on hand so I kinda "had to" stick with this system (although I have found some feedback online from other people having issues with GTN parting blades) and ordered this replacement (19-2 size).

Stechschwert Hohe 26 und 32mm, Stechbreiten 2,3,4,5,6mm kompatibel zu ISCAR GTN | eBay
43 euros shipped, worth a try... don't know about the quality but we'll see. Last try with GTN inserts... finger crossed.

I almost ordered a larger 26-3 blade kit along with it (holder, blade and 10 inserts for 150 euros) as the 19-2 I have is limited to 40mm diameter parting :
Abstechen - Abstechset: Abstecheinsatze (2mm o. 3mm), Stechwert + Spannblock | eBay

But then I thought, GTN inserts have not worked that well for me thus far, maybe I should just switch to another type of blade and inserts alltogether for the larger diameter. So I'm shopping for a bigger parting blade, tougher than GTN blades, and found that Iscar "Do-Grip" blades seem to be a solid offering and probably the way to go.

I would like to be able to part at least 80mm diameter work. I don't have any bandsaw so all the parting has to be made on the lathe, for ANY project.
It seems being able to part 80mm requires at least a 26-4 blade but I wonder if 4mm width parting won't put too much stress on my 1236 ? Your thoughts ?

Another issue : I have tried finding out how high will be the shank tool holder + blade holder + blade, no that easy to find out, as far as I can tell, the resulting setup will bottom out, only have 30mm+ of compound-to-centerline heignt on the 1236. Am I going to be limited to 19mm blades ? I've got a Dorian QCTP. Google for the larger BXA 71-26 HD holder but it's discontinued. Then there is the Aloris BXA-71 with it's huge blade available in 3mm width but then again it's GTN type inserts...

Any help sourcing a solid large diameter parting setup will be appreciated.


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## precisionworks (Nov 28, 2016)

The best parting tool is a bandsaw, followed by a heavily constructed lathe. Third choice is a hack saw, saw the part long & face off to length in the lathe.

A parting tool will work OK in a small lathe & the GTN is what I've used since forever. Narrower is better (say that a dozen or so times) so stay with a GTN2 (2mm or .087" wide). Specialty inserts (Iscar Do Grip, etc.) are expensive & not necessary IMHO.

Setup is critical: 


tool must be 90° to work
tool tip must be .010" to .015" below center (.25mm to .38mm)
Speed at least 100 sfpm
Feed to produce a continuous chip
Coolant helps, even oil or TapMagic


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