# Surefire 8AX commander bulb performing poorly!?



## Policetacteam (Dec 22, 2008)

I am curious, just a ball park idea, how long an incan bulb can continue to operate at peak performance!?! My 8AX commander is dim at best. I have owned this light for approximately 2 years..maybe a tad longer and have never replaced the bulb because it has never burned out! My batteries are custom from Silverfox so I think they are still good to go although I do not have a way to test the batteries. Not to get off topic...what is the ball park range in terms of months if the light gets used nightly / 6 nights per week.


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## Yoda4561 (Dec 22, 2008)

If the bulb envelope is still clear and not blackened it should be operating at full brightness. Have you checked and cleaned all the electrical contacts in the light? Resistance has a HUGE effect on incan brightness. Clean contacts can make all the difference in the world.


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## Size15's (Dec 22, 2008)

It sounds to me like you've had good life out of that X80 lamp. I suggest swapping it out for your spare and getting a replacement.


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## Policetacteam (Dec 22, 2008)

I don't believe it came with a spare. But it is probably time to replace regardless! I may see if Gene can make a P7 mod for it. Thanks guys!


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## Policetacteam (Dec 22, 2008)

What do you clean the contact with and which contacts are we speaking of. I ask because I have obviously never cleaned them..ever!


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## DUQ (Dec 22, 2008)

Yoda4561 said:


> Have you checked and cleaned all the electrical contacts in the light? Resistance has a HUGE effect on incan brightness. Clean contacts can make all the difference in the world.



There are no contact points on the Commander. The buld is designed to make contact with the battery only; both positive and negative contact points are on top on the battery.

I think the bulb has had a long service life....time for a fresh one.


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## Size15's (Dec 22, 2008)

Policetacteam said:


> I don't believe it came with a spare. But it is probably time to replace regardless! I may see if Gene can make a P7 mod for it. Thanks guys!


SureFires don't need to have spare bulbs onboard - the bulbs have extremely long lifespans as you've experienced.

Still, I'm of the opinion and experience that its a good idea to have a spare lamp around for when the bulb dies of old age or just in case it breaks.


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## Yoda4561 (Dec 22, 2008)

Deoxit (the red original kind) is the best stuff, it's great for switches and contacts and all sorts of things, some of which can't be cleaned by hand. In your case though it should be a simple matter to use some metal polish or very fine sandpaper, and wherever the light makes a mechanical electrical contact. 

A list off the top of my head are the lamp center contact, the lamp outer spring (around the bottom where it contacts the light body), the rim inside the flashlight body that the outer spring contacts, the tailcap spring, the inner tailcap contact and the base of the flashlight battery tube which usually makes contact with part of the tailcap switch. 

I'd clean the outer spring and center bulb contact, the battery ends if they look even a bit duller than when new, and the tailcap spring. It should take just one or two passes with the sandpaper to brighten up the metal, you aren't trying to remove it, just cut through the oxide buildup. Deoxit does this chemically, but abrasives work just as well, not nearly as convenient though (it's great for tailcaps and other non-easy to clean areas), and deoxit has the benefit of keeping stuff working so you don't need to hit it with abrasive paper as often.



DUQ said:


> There are no contact points on the Commander. The buld is designed to make contact with the battery only; both positive and negative contact points are on top on the battery.
> 
> I think the bulb has had a long service life....time for a fresh one.



I've never owned one personally so I'll take your word for it, but it seems odd what with the battery having pos and negative contacts on opposite ends. The pictures I've seen show a pretty run of the mill surefire build, with the same contact areas as any 6p/g/etc light.


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## Size15's (Dec 22, 2008)

SureFire B90 battery sticks have both positive and negative terminals at the top end of the battery stick, as well as a negative terminal at the bottom.


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## Yoda4561 (Dec 22, 2008)

Geez I want to get one now just to see how it's all put together. How on earth does the tailcap switch work if the bulb is already in contact with the battery's +/- terminals?


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## Illum (Dec 22, 2008)

Size15's said:


> SureFire B90 battery sticks have both positive and negative terminals at the top end of the battery stick, *as well as a negative terminal at the bottom*.




I wonder whats the logic in that? :thinking:


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## Size15's (Dec 22, 2008)

Yoda4561 said:


> Geez I want to get one now just to see how it's all put together. How on earth does the tailcap switch work if the bulb is already in contact with the battery's +/- terminals?


It's like the B90 battery stick is a piston - the push button at the rear of the body is simply a means of pushing the whole battery stick forward so that both the Lamp Assembly spring contacts make contact.

The Lamp Assembly outer spring contact (negative) is far longer than the inner (positive) spring contact.

Pushing the battery stick towards the bezel makes the contact with the positive spring. Normally at rest just the negative spring is in contact.



Illum_the_nation said:


> I wonder whats the logic in that? :thinking:


This is because the charger has charging terminals at either end. Achieving robust, reliable and 'foolproof' recharging using a system with both terminals at one end is likely far more difficult.
The B90 is used by both the 9AN and 8AX/8NX/L7 so it has to have have a negative terminal in the traditional location because the 9N/9AN operates like a traditional TailCap-operated flashlight.

Al


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## Illum (Dec 22, 2008)

Size15's said:


> This is because the charger has charging terminals at either end. Achieving robust, reliable and 'foolproof' recharging using a system with both terminals at one end is likely far more difficult.
> The B90 is used by both the 9AN and 8AX/8NX/L7 so it has to have have a negative terminal in the traditional location because the 9N/9AN operates like a traditional TailCap-operated flashlight.



you :rock:


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## naked2 (Dec 22, 2008)

The "negative" terminal on the bottom of the battery stick has two thin, flat metal strips, soldered to a flat plate on the bottom of it. These two strips run up the side of the three "sub C" NiCd :thumbsdow cells (which are soldered together with tabs), to a "washer" that sits on top of the "positive" terminal (insulated from it, of course), and then the whole thing is shrink wrapped to make the "stick".

The tail (no cap, no contacts) in the one piece Nitrolon body is nothing but a large rubber boot, that when you press on it simply pushes the entire battery stick forward to make contact with the LA's springs, sort of like a "piston drive". The large outer spring on the LA is in constant contact with the "negative washer" on the battery stick, thus giving it "tactical feedback". The inner spring is shorter and recessed into the outer one, not making contact with the "positive nub" on the battery stick until the tail "button" is depressed. The most simple, effective, mechanical connection between a power source and a LA ever devised; brillant!

Too bad SF chose NiCd for this setup, but I'm going to have to look into the OP's "Silverfox" mod and maybe revive myold, tired 8NX!

Edit: Size 15's beat me too the punch, I'm a slow typer!


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## Size15's (Dec 22, 2008)

naked2 said:


> The tail (no cap, no contacts) in the one piece Nitrolon body is nothing but a large rubber boot...


Actually the rubber switch boot has a plastic disc a few mm thick attached to it's inside surface. The purpose of this disc appears to be so that the rubber switch boot remains raised rather than flush with the end of the body.


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## NotRegulated (Dec 22, 2008)

I would also recommend replacing the bulb. About 9 months ago I had the same issue. I had an original bulb in my 8NX for years. It was appearing dim. I tried my second backup bulb and ...WOW! big difference in output and the hotspot was much better.


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## Justin Case (Dec 22, 2008)

In my 8NX, I don't have just a disc on the inside surface of the rubber boot. The insert looks more like a thin disc with a very coarse, fairly thick (relatively speaking) plastic gear with six teeth molded on top of the disc section.


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## Size15's (Dec 22, 2008)

Justin Case said:


> In my 8NX, I don't have just a disc on the inside surface of the rubber boot. The insert looks more like a thin disc with a very coarse, fairly thick (relatively speaking) plastic gear with six teeth molded on top of the disc section.


Yeah that's what I meant - sorry for my poor (simplistic) description.


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## Justin Case (Dec 22, 2008)

I would estimate the thickness of this insert to be about 0.2", or about 5 mm.


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## Policetacteam (Dec 22, 2008)

Ok..on my tail switch I have a super thin almost neoprene disc that is completely worthless. I'm not sure what, if any, purpose it serves. It does not have the "teeth" and is not made of plastic. The rubber boot for the tail switch has no problem standing on it's own but kind of disappointed in the disc. Very cheap! I will try cleaning those contact areas on the spring and inspect the battery area as well. My problem is I don't want to spend the money on a new bulb when I could spend it on a possible upgrade or hopefully a P7 mod from Gene! Not sure if that's possible yet but hoping it will be!!! Start with the small things and work your way up is always a safe philosophy!


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## naked2 (Dec 22, 2008)

Quote:
Originally Posted by *naked2* 

 
_The tail (no cap, no contacts) in the one piece Nitrolon body is nothing but a large rubber boot..._


Size15's said:


> Actually the rubber switch boot has a plastic disc a few mm thick attached to it's inside surface. The purpose of this disc appears to be so that the rubber switch boot remains raised rather than flush with the end of the body.


The point I was making is that there's no switching mechanism of any kind mounted in the tail. In other words, there are no contacts to clean in the tail.


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## naked2 (Dec 22, 2008)

Policetacteam, can you give me any information on your Silverfox batteries?

Thanks, Tony


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## Justin Case (Dec 22, 2008)

This is the plastic spacer at the bottom of my 8NX, attached to the rubber boot:


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## Policetacteam (Dec 22, 2008)

Ok...I stand corrected! My rubber boot does have a tiny disc attached but it looks nothing like the one pictured above. 
As for the batteries that Silverfox made up I believe he is having some problems locating quality cells because he is currently not making them. He has very high standards and when the sticks didn't meet his expectations he continued looking for other sources! PM and find out where he is with the new sticks! Just curious. I ordered two from him and they are great!! I hope he makes another batch!


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## nikon (Dec 23, 2008)

With a little fiddling you can get any brand of P60 incan to work. I'm also thinking of boring these out a bit to let LED dropins to fit.


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## Policetacteam (Dec 23, 2008)

Nikon,

How much boring did you do to make that fit? If you could post images of the inside of the 8AX would be great! Can you explain what you used and how you did it! I'm sure others would also be interested! Thanks


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## nikon (Dec 23, 2008)

Policetacteam said:


> Nikon,
> 
> How much boring did you do to make that fit? If you could post images of the inside of the 8AX would be great! Can you explain what you used and how you did it! I'm sure others would also be interested! Thanks


 
I haven't bored it out yet because I don't have a drillbit large enough. The bore will have to be about 7/8" to accomodate an LED dropin. The picture shows the part that will have to be widened. The incan dropins fit without any work done to the light. All you have to do is to get the springs the right length.


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## naked2 (Dec 23, 2008)

Are the silverfox batteries NiMH? And do they chsrge in the SF charger?


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## Policetacteam (Dec 23, 2008)

Nikon,
What incan drop-in are you using?

naked2,
The batteries I have are 3300 1.2V 3300mAh NiMH's. They have been awesome in performance and run times! If you can get your hands on some I would highly recommend them!


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## naked2 (Dec 23, 2008)

Do they charge in the SF charger?


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## Policetacteam (Dec 23, 2008)

Yes they do! I put them in until the light is solid green...remove it and then put it back in until the green light is blinking. According to the instructions that will give it a full charge!


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## nikon (Dec 26, 2008)

Policetacteam said:


> Nikon,
> What incan drop-in are you using?!


 
I'm using G&P because I happen to have several of those, but any standard size 3.7v LA will work.

If you want to go to a little more trouble, you can make a sleeve for a couple of 18650 or 17670 Li-Ion batteries and run a lead from the negative end up to a washer at the top. Then you can use a 9v LA.


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## Robocop (Dec 29, 2008)

I carried a Commander for about 3 years and never had one failure however after about 2 years the original bulb was dimmer. It was mostly a noticed different in the tint as the output was still good but the color seemed more creamy brown. I had several spare bulbs and was on the second one in 3 years when I traded it to another member.

If I had to guess from my personal experience I would say the bulbs seem to last about a year and a half before showing a noticed difference. I did charge and use mine every night on patrol so it did see heavy usage.


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## Policetacteam (Dec 30, 2008)

Thanks Robocop. I am still checking out my drop-in option although they appear to be slim. I may just purchase another bulb from Surefire. I haven't quite decided yet. The light is the perfect size to hold in your arms when you need your hands free but just not totally convinced on spending money on another incan bulb.


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## Justin Case (Dec 30, 2008)

If the size increase isn't an issue, you could get a KT5 TurboHead Conversion for the 8AX/8NX. Then you could get an AW LED Tower Kit to convert the light to LED illumination.

http://www.surefire.com/KT5-BK-TurboHead-Conversion
http://www.surefire.com/KT5-HA-TurboHead-Conversion
http://www.cpfmarketplace.com/mp/showthread.php?t=141994

I got the Seoul focus tower kit. You also need to following components:

- Seoul P4 U2 bin LED
- Arctic Alumina thermal adhesive (a 2-part thermal epoxy)
- driver board such as a Downboy 1000 or SOB 1000
- 24 gauge teflon coated wire (much easier to work with than the standard PVC coated wire, which tends to melt/shrink back under the heat of a soldering iron)
- soldering iron
- solder
- spare 3.7V Li-ion cell and some scrap hookup wire to test the board and LED before final assembly


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## Policetacteam (Dec 30, 2008)

Thanks Justin,That is part of the problem. I have this light mounted on my duty belt and the KT5 Turbo Head is just too big! I would like the additional throw but it would be too bulky when sitting down, etc... Very cool conversion though...any other other thoughts!?!


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## Robocop (Dec 31, 2008)

I hope this does not sidetrack your thread however you asked for other thoughts.....

I chose to change from the Commander to a Wolf-Eyes set up simply as I could get a 9 volt system in basically the same size package as the Commander which was only 3.7 volts. My output went way up and my runtime was the same if not even a little better with the D36 Raider.

If the size fits you well give the Wolf-Eyes D36 Raider a try and look at the optional bezel for better throw. I use mine in the same holster I once used for my Commander and it fits just fine. The tint is very white for an incandescent and spare lamps are plenty available....plus you can always go with an even better set up in the M90 and use Lumens Factory higher power lamps for some big output with still similiar runtime.

Good luck and by the way even with the better output and other positive improvements I still miss my trusty old Commander. You may want to keep yours just in case.


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## Chrontius (Dec 31, 2008)

I've had rather bad luck with X80 lamp assemblies. The first one wouldn't contact the battery, and the second one suffered an envelope failure (I think; blue-white residues on the glass) after several months of very light use, and now has a dim orange hotspot and greenish (?!) spill. Does anyone know what the rated lifetime of these lamps is?


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## Size15's (Jan 1, 2009)

Chrontius said:


> I've had rather bad luck with X80 lamp assemblies. The first one wouldn't contact the battery, and the second one suffered an envelope failure (I think; blue-white residues on the glass) after several months of very light use, and now has a dim orange hotspot and greenish (?!) spill. Does anyone know what the rated lifetime of these lamps is?


The figure given for SureFires is 25 hours for the lifespan of the incandescent bulbs. However, there are many instances of this being greatly exceeded, doubled without surprise even.


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## naked2 (Jan 1, 2009)

My X80 has outlasted *two *pairs of B90s, and still going! (well, not really, as I refuse to pay another 40 bucks [Oh!,wait, edit, I just checked SF's website, make that *$44*, plus tax, shipping and handling!] for *another* set of NiCds!). I think I left the first set in the glovebox of my horse-drawn carriage! 

Tell me more about Silverfox!


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