# DBS (Q4 UPDATE!), MRV, Tiablo A8, DX Cree Projection, WF-600: RUNTIMES and pics!



## selfbuilt (Aug 31, 2007)

*DBS, MRV, Tiablo A8, DX Cree Projection, WF-600, Regal WT1: RUNTIMES and pics!*

This overview is my first throw and runtime comparison of the premium thrower lights (Dereelight DBS, Tiablo A8, and Lumapower MRV) and the budget versions (DealExtreme "3W Cree Projection" and WF-600). Scroll down for a detail review of the DBS V1 and Projection Cree.

*For an updated detailed comparison to all the other thrower lights in my collection, please see:
Thrower review: DBS, Spear, MRV, Tiablo, Regal & clones: THROW, RUNTIMES, BEAMSHOTS! *

*The contenders*:

From left to right: Lumapower MRV (2nd Gen), Tiablo A8, Dereelight DBS, DX Cree Projection, DX WF-600 (18650-only). Not shown is the Regal WT1.












*Beamshots:*

Quick and dirty comparison at ~.4 meters from a wall, to show you the different overall spillbeam patterns. All lights are running on 18650, with Q2 emitters.






*Beam observations:*

DX Cree Projection and WF-600 have a very similar beam profile to the MRV, although overall spillbeam width is a bit narrower on the DX lights
The Tiablo A8 and Dereelight DBS have a similar beam profile to each other, with a smaller brighter hotspot, brighter corona, and smaller overall spillbeam width than the MRV
DBS has the smallest overall spillbeam width of all the lights
Tint on my DX Cree Projection was slightly purplish, and the WF-600 is a warm yellow. The MRVs/A8 have premium white tints (although example shown above is my MRV Q5 warm tint WG mod). The DBS 2-stage is a warm tint, consistent with the reported WD/WG bin for this module.
Although not shown, the Regal WT1 produces a beam pattern closest to the DBS, although with a wider spillbeam (spillbeam width is intermittent between the DBS and MRV).
*Measurement Method:*Throw values are the square-root of Lux measurements taken at 1m using a light meter. Note that my lightmeter tends to report lower absolute values than most, but I have verified it is linearly responsive over the range of intensities in question.

*MRV 1st Generation (Light Gray) - P4 Throw Lux @ one meter:*
18650 x 1 on high: 9,600 Lux
18650 x 1 on low: 6,200 Lux
CR123A x 2 on high: 11,800 Lux
CR123A x 2 on low: 5,900 Lux
*MRV 2nd Generation (Dark Brown) - Q2 Throw Lux @ one meter:*
18650 x 1 on high: 10,400 Lux
18650 x 1 on low: 7,100 Lux
CR123A x 2 on high: 14,200 Lux
CR123A x 2 on low: 7,200 Lux
*MRV 1st Generation with DX Cree Q5 WG mod - Q5 Throw Lux @ one meter:*
18650 x 1 on high: 11,800 Lux
18650 x 1 on low: 8,500 Lux
CR123A x 2 on high: 18,200 Lux
CR123A x 2 on low: 8,500 Lux
*Tiablo A8 - Q2 Throw Lux @ one meter:*
18650 x 1 on high: 14,400 Lux
18650 x 1 on low: 1,690 Lux
CR123A x 2 on high: 14,100 Lux
CR123A x 2 on low: 2,680 Lux
*Dereelight DBS 2-Stage - Q2 Throw Lux @ one meter:*
18650 x 1 on high: 17,000 Lux
18650 x 1 on low: 3,600 Lux
CR123A x 2 on high: ~19,500 Lux (estimate, see runtime graph)
CR123A x 2 on low: 3,650 Lux
*Dereelight DBS 3-Stage - Q4 (18650-only) Throw Lux @ one meter:*
18650 x 1 on high: 21,200 Lux
18650 x 1 on medium: 10,500 Lux
18650 x 1 on low: 1,830 Lux
*DX Cree Projection - Q2 Throw Lux @ one meter:*
18650 x 1 on high: 11,200 Lux
18650 x 1 on low: 3,200 Lux
CR123A x 2 on high: 14,200 Lux
CR123A x 2 on low: 6,300 Lux
*DX WF-600 (18650-only) - Q2 Throw Lux @ one meter:*
18650 x 1 on high: 16,300 Lux
18650 x 1 on low: 3,600 Lux
*Regal WT1 - Q5 Throw Lux @ one meter:*
18650 x 1 on high: 10,200 Lux
18650 x 1 on low: 1,650 Lux
CR123A x 2 on high: 10,650 Lux
CR123A x 2 on low: 3,800 Lux

*Throw observations:*

On 18650, the Dereelight DBS-Q2 throws further than the Tiablo A8-Q2, which in turns throws further than the Lumapower MRV-Q2. On primaries, the DBS-Q2 out-throws the A8/MRV, which are roughly equivalent. I would expect this relative throw relationship (DBS>A8>MRV) to persist for higher luminous flux bins
Upgrading a MRV to a Q5 emitter resulted in greatly increased throw only on primaries. On 18650, my Q5 upgrade resulted mainly in runtime improvements.
On low, the Tiablo A8 has the lowest output, followed by the Dereelight DBS and DX lights, while the MRVs are considerably brighter.
Among the budget throwers, the multi-power DX Cree Projection-Q2 is equivalent to the Lumapower MRV-Q2 on all batteries. The 18650-only WF-600-Q2 throws as far as the Dereelight DBS-Q2, but on 18650-only.
DBS 3-stage Q4 module (18650-only) throws the furthest of all my lights.
Regal WT1. with its Q5 emitter but smaller reflector. is still able to throw about as far as the early generation MRVs (P4/Q2).

*Runtimes:*
*These runtimes charts are different from my other reviews - they represent throw, not overall output.* Since my home-made milk carton lightbox doesn't accurately capture overall output on these intense throwers, I have adjusted all my relative output numbers to initial throw (measured as the squareroot of Lux @1m). This allows you to directly compare the relative throw of each light over time on the graphs below (although you can't directly compare these graphs with my other reviews).











*Runtime observations:*

On primaries, luminous flux bin makes the biggest difference in output, as expected. Main differences between the lights are due to the regulation characteristics of their respective circuits
DBS 2-stage has an unusual regulation pattern on primaries, and only peaks right before drop-off (note: I ran this runtime test twice, and the pattern was similar both times)
On 18650, flux bin makes a bigger difference for runtime than output for the multipower circuits, like in the MRV and DX Cree Projection. The Tiablo A8 is much brighter and better regulated than the other lights, but at the expense of runtime
The Q5-modded MRV shows a considerable increase in brightness on primaries, but only a small increase on 18650. On 18650, there was a dramatic increase in runtime - nearly 50% longer (i.e. ~6 hours for Q5 vs ~4 hours for unmodded P4)
The DBS 3-stage Q4 module (18650-only) has great regulation and output on 18650, very impressive. Unlike the Tiablo, the DBS module has a low "moon mode" rather than abrupt shut-off on 18650 (although light showed some slight flickering at this low level, so I stopped the run at this point).
The Regal WT1 has very flat regulation on primaries, and a typical decay pattern on 18650.

_*Conclusions:*_

Simply put, with the same emitter in place (Q2), the DBS throws further than the Tiablo, which in turn throws further than the MRV. This is likely due to deeper reflector designs of the newer lights. The flipside to this improved throw is narrower overall spillbeam width.
The DX lights feature remarkably good output and runtimes - the DX Cree Projection is at least as good the original MRV (and slightly better regulated), which is very impressive.
Build quality of the premium lights are all quite good, with the Tiablo having the highest grade aluminum and best anodizing among my samples. My Dereelight DBS shows machining marks in the various grooves and recesses, along with some “splotchiness” in anodizing (see below for a discussion). Earlier MRVs had some anodizing defects, and this seems to have been resolved on later versions. 
Overall build quality of DX lights are certainly not the same as the premium MRV/A8/DBS class by a long shot - but it is at the higher end of the lights DX typically sells. If you are comfortable with this class of light, you should find these budget throwers a great deal at <$30
In general terms, increasing the flux bin on the MRV (with the stock driver) results in a differential effect on output/runtime depending on the battery used: on primaries, you get mainly increased output with little change to runtime, but on 18650 most of the gain is in runtime improvements. This is likely due to the higher Vf on currently available Q5 bins.
The 3-stage Q4 (18650-only) module on the DBS is the clear throw king of my comparison so far.
The Regal WT1 is not meant to be a dedicated thrower, but as you'll see above, it holds its own very well given the head/reflector size.

------------------------

*Dereelight DBS Mini-Review*

*Build Quality:*

The overall design of the DBS is top-notch. All the parts are easy to access and disassemble - very modular, very well designed. However, the large number of contact surfaces and screw threads suggests proper maintenance will be critical on this light. Haven't done detailed pics, but see WadeF's review for pics: Dereelight DBS review!
The emitter module screws into the aluminum reflector, providing excellent heatsinking and easy ability to upgrade emitter modules as new emitters come out.
The DBS weighs 220g, making it the heavyist of the lights reviewed here. It is also a bit longer than the other premium lights (Tiablo/MRV).

*Machining and Anodizing:*

Unfortunately, these are the areas where the DBS disappoints somewhat. Anodizing is not as smooth as the other premium lights, with a splotchy "mottling" effect noticeable in several regions, especially around the head. A minor cosmetic issue, and not a big deal to me.
Machining is another issue, as there are some very noticeable grooves visible in many of the scalloped regions. At close range, you can see horizontal marks that are reminiscent of the peaks and valleys of old-style phonograph records (but much finer, of course). The two pics below, from the head and taicap, should give you an idea what I mean. Note that you won't feel these by running your finger over the areas, but they are quite visible in the light. They are certainly more noticeable than the anodizing blemishes.











*Body and threads:* 

Screw threads are cut well, but all lack anodizing so battery lock-out is not possible (note: only the MRV features a tailcap lock-out). Current is carried through the many screw threads, so proper cleaning and lubing is critical.
My sample needed a through cleaning on arrival, as some sort of grease had made its way from the threads and o-rings on to some of the contact and external surfaces. This resulted in flickering and poor contact. I generally recommend deoxit for cleaning and nyogel for lubrication.


*Tailcap and switch:* 

The DBS features the much sought after forward clicky! Fans of this type of switch may rejoice, although I'm personally quite happy with standard reverse clickies (I'm not often in "tactical" situations, unless you count accidentally waking my wife up at night with a light ).
Haven't fully disassembled the tailcap innards yet, but they look to be of very high quality.

*DBS Summary:*

Well designed light, best throw of all the lights reviewed here (when matched with equivalent emitters). But also narrowest overall spillbeam width.
Modular construction allows for easy upgrade path, but multiple contact surfaces and screw threads mean more vigilant care and maintenance is required than for most lights.
Noticeable issues with exterior machining and anodizing in this early sample. Light also suffered from contact issues as shipped, but these were resolved with proper cleaning and lubing.
Note that my sample is one of the first DBS lights sold. Early MRVs also had anodizing, screw thread, and low mode contact issues that were all subsequently resolved.
New 3-stage modules should be shipping with Q5 emitter, but my Q4 is no slouch! Output has increased by ~15% over the Q2 emitter, with much better regulation (as you would expect from a 18650-only module).

-------------------------

*Regal WT1 Mini-Review*

I suggest you check out Stefan's excellent detailed review of this light for more info: 
 Regalight WT1 - A Massive Performer! With beamshots & Runtimes!

I agree completely with Stefan's assessment of the build quality of this light. Machining and anodizing are excellent, very substantial feel in the hand. I'd say overall build quality-wise, it's around the level of an MRV or Tiablo (which is higher than the DBS). Excellent marks all around. :thumbsup:

Light comes with a single-stage "tactical" forward clicky and an extra 2-stage reverse clicky (with resistored low mode, similar to most of the other other lights reviewed here). My 2-stage switch has exactly the same output as the single-stage on Hi. Light also comes with a OP reflector, wrist lanyward, and a basic-model holster.

The only slight negative on mine is the beam pattern. With the smooth reflector, the beam is ringier than my LP, Tiablo and DBS lights similarly equipped (the DBS was the previous "ringiness" winner among my lights ). More importantly, the emitter, while well-centered, doesn't seem to be lying completely level. The result is that up close, the major rings in the beam are not exactly centered around the hotspot, but rather slightly off to one side. The OP reflector helps hide this somewhat, but doesn't completely remove the effect. Note that the actual tilt of the emitter is subtle, and the lopsided effect of the rings is only really noticeable up close on a white wall and not in actual use. But it is there, and this is not something I've seen on my LP, Tiablo, or DBS lights. 

The conclusion here is that my Regal WT1 throws as far as my MRV-Q2 on 18650, and about as far as my MRV-P4 on primaries. It also has a very nice low mode (except on RCR, where it is similar to the MRV low). It's hard to estimate overall output on such throwy lights, but I'd say it seems to at least match that of my Q2 lights overall.

All in all, I'm happy with the light. Seems to be good value for the money. You basically get original P4/Q2 MRV output - with similar build quality - but in a smaller, more portable form-factor. :thumbsup:

-------------------------

*Budget Thrower Mini-Review: DX Cree Projection and WF-600*

There is a major point of confusion here - it many cases, DX shipped the same light for both models. Early versions of the WF-600 were sold with the same multipower circuit as the Cree Projection. And after the initial batch of P4 Cree Projections, these began shipping with Q2 emitters (despite ongoing P4 body label). Thus, many users report receiving identical lights. However, the WF-600 unit I recently received (Oct 2007) does have the correct 18650-only circuit.
The host for these two lights is virtually identical - it is only the circuit and body labelling that differ. There is also some variability in anodizing finish (i.e. glossy or matte). Both of my lights seem to use Q2 Cree emitters.
The Cree Projection seems to have a virtually identical multipower circuit to Lumapower MRV, and output and runtime are comparable to a Q2-equipped MRV.
The WF-600 on 18650 is ~25% brighter (with ~25% more throw) than the Cree Projection on 18650. Consistent with this greater output, runtime is reduced on the WF-600.
The DX Cree Projection and WF-600 have identical bodies. Their weight is the same weight as the MRV/DBS (200g), which is heavier than the A8 (150g). The lights are ~13mm longer and ~9mm wider at the bezel than the MRV.

*Beamshots*

For simplicity, I'm only showing the DX Cree Projection and Luma MRV-Q2 (2nd gen) on 18650 on Hi, at two different exposures to show the beam profiles. 












*Reflector:* The DX lights have a wider and longer reflector than the MRV (shown below), but are made of plastic instead of aluminum. They also have a wider opening, making it much harder to center properly around the emitter (the emitter simply has a shiny reflective disk surrounding it). On the MRV or A8, the reflector fits very snuggly around the Cree emitter ring, making proper placement a snap. The DBS is even better, as the emitter module actually screws into the reflector, insuring centering.











*Body and threads:* The DX lights have surprisingly good "hand feel", due to their overall heft. Although bulkier than the premium lights, the DX units seem well balanced in the hand, and the Type II anodizing is smooth on the visible surfaces (premium MRV/A8/DBS are HA, type III). As you can see in the pic below, tailcap threads not anodized, and quality is not as high as the MRV (although still acceptable). I haven't disassembled the head yet, but if you look down the barrel you'll see the positive contact is just a steel spring soldered to a circuit board (in contrast, see Stefan's threads for detailed pics of the high quality design of MRV/A8 heads).











*Tailcap and switch:* Again, quality and number of extras on the DX lights are definitely not as high as the premium lights. MRV/A8 use the same switch (DX Cree Projection light on left, MRV on the right in the photo below), and the DBS has a forward clicky. Quality of the DX components are similar to the best of the various $20-30 EYJ/MTE lights that DX sells (which are generally acceptable but nothing special). Note that the sequence for the DX tailcap is Hi first, followed by Low, then off.






--------------------------

I'll continue to update this thread with more observations as I play with all the lights. :thumbsup:


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## AFAustin (Aug 31, 2007)

*Re: DX Cree Projection vs Lumapower MRV vs Tiablo A8: RUNTIMES and detailed pics!*

Thanks, selfbuilt. Looks like the DX model is a nice buy at the price. Thanks for your work on this.


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## FlashCrazy (Sep 1, 2007)

*Re: DX Cree Projection vs Lumapower MRV vs Tiablo A8: RUNTIMES and detailed pics!*

Wow, selfbuilt! Great comparison of these "heavy hitter" LED lights. Among the four, the Tiablo looks to be the best bet if one is planning on using 18650's. Great performance from the DX Projection, though...especially for the the price. Thanks for doing the comparison!


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## selfbuilt (Sep 1, 2007)

*Re: DX Cree Projection vs Lumapower MRV vs Tiablo A8: RUNTIMES and detailed pics!*

Thanks for the support guys!

I was frankly surprised at how well the Cree Projection fared in terms of output/runtime - certainly better than the original MRV. Build quality doesn't compare of course, but it's definitely at the high end for those types of DX/Kai lights.

And I agree the A8 is your best choice for regulated high output on 18650 - the others don't come close. The A8 also has better regulation and runtimes on primaries, making it a great all-around light.. But for all that, I still prefer the "hand feel" of the MRVs.

Still, don't see how you could go wrong with any of them.


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## fieldops (Sep 1, 2007)

*Re: DX Cree Projection vs Lumapower MRV vs Tiablo A8: RUNTIMES and detailed pics!*

Selfbuilt:

Nice job on the review :thumbsup:
I picked up an MRV from batteryjunction a couple weeks ago. How can you tell the 1st generation from the 2nd? Are al the new dark finish ones 2nd gen? Mine is the dark HA III
sn MRV0705A0634

Thanks again for the great info :thanks:


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## ah-see (Sep 1, 2007)

*Re: DX Cree Projection vs Lumapower MRV vs Tiablo A8: RUNTIMES and detailed pics!*

Great review selfbuilt, keep up the great work. I'm going to have to buy one of these lights now. Most probably the A8


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## M.S (Sep 1, 2007)

*Re: DX Cree Projection vs Lumapower MRV vs Tiablo A8: RUNTIMES and detailed pics!*

You made me buy the DX version... :kiss:
I have been thinking about buying the MRV or Tiablo, but they seemed bit expensive and I don't really need light with a great throw. But I wanted one, so I ordered this one. 

Is the emitter accessible? Maybe I will get a Q5 emitter for even more power...


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## StefanFS (Sep 1, 2007)

*Re: DX Cree Projection vs Lumapower MRV vs Tiablo A8: RUNTIMES and detailed pics!*

Nice work. A lot of time and energy went into this comparison. Interesting with the runtimes. The Tiablo lights (A8 & A9) have the highest quality drivers, build and appearance as well as performance, that I have ever seen. Right now I'm trying hard to resist modding my new MRV. 
Stefan


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## rizky_p (Sep 1, 2007)

*Re: DX Cree Projection vs Lumapower MRV vs Tiablo A8: RUNTIMES and detailed pics!*

I did not expect DX projection to be such fearsome contender for the much more expensive light such as tiablo and MRV. Glad i bought that light and you comfirmed that it is favourable to MRV and tiablo. 

Excelent review and comparison, exactly what i needed.

thanks.


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## katsyonak (Sep 1, 2007)

*Re: DX Cree Projection vs Lumapower MRV vs Tiablo A8: RUNTIMES and detailed pics!*

Thanks for the review.
I got a Cree Q5 WC waiting for the DX Cree Projection to arrive


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## selfbuilt (Sep 1, 2007)

*Re: DX Cree Projection vs Lumapower MRV vs Tiablo A8: RUNTIMES and detailed pics!*

Thanks for all the support guys - it was a labor of love :kiss: (although I don't generally like burning through so many Energizer primaries ). I figured the Cree Projection would have an inferior driver & lower runtimes - boy was I wrong!



fieldops said:


> I picked up an MRV from batteryjunction a couple weeks ago. How can you tell the 1st generation from the 2nd? Are al the new dark finish ones 2nd gen? Mine is the dark HA III


Juding from Stefans' and my experience, it seems our dark "chocolate brown" finishes seem to have brighter emitters (likely Q2 like the A8, since the original MRV was a P4). 



M.S said:


> Is the emitter accessible? Maybe I will get a Q5 emitter for even more power...


Yes. I haven't shown it here, but under the reflective sticky tab surrounding the emitter you'll see a regular star screwed down to the heatsink. Haven't pried mine off yet, but it should be an easy swap (I've yet to see epoxy on a DX light - you're lucky to get thermal compound half the time ). I suppose that's one advantage to the bigger dimensions on this light - no need to trim down a replacement star.



StefanFS said:


> Nice work. A lot of time and energy went into this comparison. Interesting with the runtimes. The Tiablo lights (A8 & A9) have the highest quality drivers, build and appearance as well as performance, that I have ever seen. Right now I'm trying hard to resist modding my new MRV.
> Stefan


I certainly agree with you on the A8 (and most other things - your reviews have set the standard for these lights :bow. Of course, part of the difference here may simply be the more limited voltage range of the A8 (i.e. <6.0V), making it easier to provide better regulation on a more limited range of battery types. I don't have the A9, so I can't assess how well it performs compared to the stock MRV (one of my initial concerns holding me back on the A9). I know yours is already Flupic'd, so I guess we'll have to wait for someone else to do runtimes. 



rizky_p said:


> Excelent review and comparison, exactly what i needed.


I've been interested in the Cree Projection for awhile, but it was actually your initial review that helped convince to pull the trigger and give it a try. :thumbsup:



katsyonak said:


> I got a Cree Q5 WC waiting for the DX Cree Projection to arrive


Unfortunately, Cutter sent me the wrong items in my order, or I'd have already done the same myself! But he's re-shipping the Q5 WCs I ordered, and paying for the return shipping of his error, so I appreciate the prompt service. But this means I will have to wait a few more weeks before I can join you all in upgrading glory ...


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## Nitro (Sep 1, 2007)

*Re: DX Cree Projection vs Lumapower MRV vs Tiablo A8: RUNTIMES and detailed pics!*

Great post Self! I'm liking the A8 even more now. I can't wait to get my A8-Q5 next week.


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## rizky_p (Sep 2, 2007)

*Re: DX Cree Projection vs Lumapower MRV vs Tiablo A8: RUNTIMES and detailed pics!*



selfbuilt said:


> I've been interested in the Cree Projection for awhile, but it was actually your initial review that helped convince to pull the trigger and give it a try. :thumbsup:
> .



Really glad that you satisfied with the light and my review actualy make you pulled the trigger.


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## mr.squatch (Sep 4, 2007)

*Re: DX Cree Projection vs Lumapower MRV vs Tiablo A8: RUNTIMES and detailed pics!*

I received the dx cree for my birthday with no expectations at all. I can not believe how well this thing projects. First of all it's freakin bright! Then outside it throws as far and as bright as the "million candlepower" spotlite I carry in my car. We have a hi-power wire tower outside the neighborhood that you can see from the front porch. This little torch lights it up and the big spotlite does not. I'd guess it's nearly 1/2 mile away. Not the best quality piece I have but by far the brightest. For $28 it's worth every penny and then some. Go buy one

g


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## Patriot (Sep 4, 2007)

*Re: DX Cree Projection vs Lumapower MRV vs Tiablo A8: RUNTIMES and detailed pics!*

Thanks selfbuild for the very thorough review. The DX looks like a lot of light for the money.


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## BrianChan (Sep 4, 2007)

*Re: DX Cree Projection vs Lumapower MRV vs Tiablo A8: RUNTIMES and detailed pics!*

AFAIK the DX light is supplied with an extension tube to allow 2 18650 cells to be used with the light. How would 2 18650s affect the output curve? It seems that from the first graph the DX thrower was able to have a flatter output with 2 CR123A cells which provides a higher input voltage to the driver. It seems that other DX lights have excellent regulation when used with 2 Lion cells, as shown on lightreviews:

http://www.lightreviews.info/cm1/review.html
http://www.lightreviews.info/uf_wf-502d/review.html

Do you mind doing another test with 2x18650? I'm very anxious to know how it performs with 2 cells.


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## BrianChan (Sep 4, 2007)

*Re: DX Cree Projection vs Lumapower MRV vs Tiablo A8: RUNTIMES and detailed pics!*

I made a mistake, I thought it was this light:

http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.3356

I should've clicked the link instead of doing a search at DX 

Their reflectors look the same though.


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## vic2367 (Sep 4, 2007)

*Re: DX Cree Projection vs Lumapower MRV vs Tiablo A8: RUNTIMES and detailed pics!*

excellent review selfbuilt


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## selfbuilt (Sep 4, 2007)

*Re: DX Cree Projection vs Lumapower MRV vs Tiablo A8: RUNTIMES and detailed pics!*

Thanks for all the support everyone - glad you are finding it useful. 



BrianChan said:


> I made a mistake, I thought it was this light:
> http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.3356
> Their reflectors look the same though.


The reflector does indeed look to be the same, as well as the general overall build design (except for the momentary-on twisty). I suspect it should throw at least as well.

Now that I have had a few more days with the Cree Projection, I must say I am still quite impressed for the cost. The only real drawback in actual use is its greater width and length over the MRV/A8, making it a bit awkward to carry on your belt. But other than that, it seems quite a good bargain so far.


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## kboy25 (Sep 5, 2007)

*Re: DX Cree Projection vs Lumapower MRV vs Tiablo A8: RUNTIMES and detailed pics!*

Thanks for the review!
i was wanting the A8.....but wasn't sure if i wanted to spend the $$$.
I had some credit with DX.....so...I went ahead and ordered this one!
Thanks again. :twothumbs


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## selfbuilt (Sep 6, 2007)

*Re: DX Cree Projection vs Lumapower MRV vs Tiablo A8: RUNTIMES and detailed pics!*



kboy25 said:


> I had some credit with DX.....so...I went ahead and ordered this one!


It's certainly a great deal - the "poor man's MRV" 

That being said, you'll have to pry my new "chocolate brown" MRV out of my cold, dead fingers :devil:. Can't wait for my Q5 WCs to arrive to mod it.


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## johnny13oi (Sep 18, 2007)

*Re: DX Cree Projection vs Lumapower MRV vs Tiablo A8: RUNTIMES and detailed pics!*

Is the two mode switching mechanism contained in the switch at the tail cap itself or is it in the driver for the DX model? I would like to switch the driver in the DX model one with a 5 mode AMC7135 driver but was wondering if that would work. It seems like the second mode is achieved by a resistor on the switch right? If so, if I were to bridge the contact in place of the resistor, would the 5 mode function on the 5 mode AMC7135 work by tapping the switch?

And on top of that, do you know what the current to the emitter is running on either 18650s or 2 RCR123As? Thank you.


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## selfbuilt (Sep 20, 2007)

*Re: DX Cree Projection vs Lumapower MRV vs Tiablo A8: RUNTIMES and detailed pics!*



johnny13oi said:


> Is the two mode switching mechanism contained in the switch at the tail cap itself or is it in the driver for the DX model? I would like to switch the driver in the DX model one with a 5 mode AMC7135 driver but was wondering if that would work ... And on top of that, do you know what the current to the emitter is running on either 18650s or 2 RCR123As? Thank you.


StefanFS addressed all these points in his excellent MRV review thread. In addition to the detailed review in the 1st post, his driver mods are explained in posts 120 & 133.

FYI, I finally got around to modding my 1st gen MRV with a Q5 WG from DX. With the stock driver, I get ~20% increase in output on primaries, and ~15% increase in output on 18650. Beam tint is excellent - I would have guessed WD as opposed to WG. Haven't done runtimes yet ... in the middle of a few other lights right now.


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## StefanFS (Sep 20, 2007)

*Re: DX Cree Projection vs Lumapower MRV vs Tiablo A8: RUNTIMES and detailed pics!*



selfbuilt said:


> FYI, I finally got around to modding my 1st gen MRV with a Q5 WG from DX. With the stock driver, I get ~20% increase in output on primaries, and ~15% increase in output on 18650. Beam tint is excellent - I would have guessed WD as opposed to WG. Haven't done runtimes yet ... in the middle of a few other lights right now.


 
Yes, the tint of those DX CREE Q5 emitters on stars is very nice and cool white, not a hint of purple or any other colors. It's hard to tell them apart from WC tint at higher drive levels.
Stefan


----------



## selfbuilt (Sep 20, 2007)

*Re: DX Cree Projection vs Lumapower MRV vs Tiablo A8: RUNTIMES and detailed pics!*



StefanFS said:


> Yes, the tint of those DX CREE Q5 emitters on stars is very nice and cool white, not a hint of purple or any other colors. It's hard to tell them apart from WC tint at higher drive levels.


Yeah, I'm quite pleasantly surprised. I've compared it to my other MRV and Tiablo A8, and its just slightly warmer (which I actually like). :thumbsup: Certainly wouldn't have guessed WG - even on low, it's definitely less green than my Rex 2.1 (which I would guestimate to be a WG). 

For those who are curious, the DX Projection Cree has a touch of purplish fringe (in keeping with their usual non-premium tint bins), but its only noticeable in direct comparison to these premium lights.


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## shakeylegs (Sep 20, 2007)

*Re: DX Cree Projection vs Lumapower MRV vs Tiablo A8: RUNTIMES and detailed pics!*

selfbuilt, the Tiablo certainly looks impressive. Thanks to you and StefanFS for the reviews. 
I noticed that Stefan is getting 85 min on high with primaries and you are showing 120 minutes on high with primaries. Am I reading this wrong?


----------



## selfbuilt (Sep 20, 2007)

*Re: DX Cree Projection vs Lumapower MRV vs Tiablo A8: RUNTIMES and detailed pics!*



shakeylegs said:


> I noticed that Stefan is getting 85 min on high with primaries and you are showing 120 minutes on high with primaries. Am I reading this wrong?


You are reading that correctly. There's always some variability from one light to the next (I'm thinking Vf on the emitter is one likely major source). FYI, I noticed Tiablo's runtime graph on their sales thread shows ~110 mins on high to 50%. So I guess I just lucked out on mine.


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## matrixshaman (Sep 20, 2007)

*Re: DX Cree Projection vs Lumapower MRV vs Tiablo A8: RUNTIMES and detailed pics!*

Thanks for the excellent reviews!


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## nanotech17 (Sep 22, 2007)

*Re: DX Cree Projection vs Lumapower MRV vs Tiablo A8: RUNTIMES and detailed pics!*

nice review infact after reading this review & StefanS reviews i ordered one and really surprise & happy with it but only for a short lived joy as the driver decided to retire early - so now i'm waiting for a replacement :mecry:


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## Cnote (Sep 22, 2007)

*Re: DX Cree Projection vs Lumapower MRV vs Tiablo A8: RUNTIMES and detailed pics!*

Thanks for anothor great review!


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## Bushman5 (Sep 23, 2007)

*Re: DX Cree Projection vs Lumapower MRV vs Tiablo A8: RUNTIMES and detailed pics!*

WOW! great review Selfbuilt! you put some hours into this! I have much tolearn about reviews....i'm afraid my review of the DXlight was very brief n comparisn.

So....me thinks the DX light is an excellent housing (and cheap $) for a MOD!! who is gona be the first to do something to this light!!! :naughty::naughty::naughty:


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## selfbuilt (Sep 24, 2007)

*Re: MRV-Q5 vs DX Cree Projection vs stock MRV/Tiablo A8: RUNTIMES and detailed pics!*

Just updated main post with the results of my Q5 mod to the 1st gen MRV (P4).

Very interesting result: in seems that with the stock driver, increasing the luminous flux bin results largely in improved throw on primaries, but increased runtime on 18650. 

Although I can't guarantee the same would occur with the new stock Q5 "special edition" MRV, it is interesting that I noticed the same trend with the stock Q2 2nd gen MRV compared to the stock P4 1st gen. As such, I suspect it's a general characteristic of the stock driver (although could be heavily dependent on Vf on the emitter).

P.S.: Thanks for the continued support everyone! :thumbsup:


----------



## katsyonak (Sep 24, 2007)

*Re: MRV-Q5 vs DX Cree Projection vs stock MRV/Tiablo A8: RUNTIMES and detailed pics!*

Very interesting results indeed.

BTW, while walking the dog I took some beam shots of the DX Cree Projection modded with a Q5 WC and running on a 18650 battery.
Sorry about the pictures quality though, the dog just wanted to keep on going 



























I really like this light


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## johnny13oi (Sep 24, 2007)

*Re: MRV-Q5 vs DX Cree Projection vs stock MRV/Tiablo A8: RUNTIMES and detailed pics!*

Is the Cree Projection and the WF-600 the same exact light?


----------



## selfbuilt (Sep 25, 2007)

*Re: MRV-Q5 vs DX Cree Projection vs stock MRV/Tiablo A8: RUNTIMES and detailed pics!*



katsyonak said:


> BTW, while walking the dog I took some beam shots of the DX Cree Projection modded with a Q5 WC and running on a 18650 battery.


Thanks for sharing.



johnny13oi said:


> Is the Cree Projection and the WF-600 the same exact light?


Yes, they seem to be. Despite the WF-600 being listed as 18650-specific, those here who have received it report its the same "Multi-Power 3.6V - 9V" version as the Cree Projection. And judging from my results, I suspect my Cree Projection is in fact a Q2 and not a P4 as advertised. So that would make them exactly the same light.


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## StefanFS (Sep 25, 2007)

*Re: MRV-Q5 vs DX Cree Projection vs stock MRV/Tiablo A8: RUNTIMES and detailed pics!*



selfbuilt said:


> Very interesting result: in seems that with the stock driver, increasing the luminous flux bin results largely in improved throw on primaries, but increased runtime on 18650.
> 
> Although I can't guarantee the same would occur with the new stock Q5 "special edition" MRV, it is interesting that I noticed the same trend with the stock Q2 2nd gen MRV compared to the stock P4 1st gen. As such, I suspect it's a general characteristic of the stock driver (although could be heavily dependent on Vf on the emitter).


 
You seem to be right in your suspicion. To get the best result from CREE Q5 emitters it seems that a slightly higher voltage to the led is necessary (compared to P4 and Q2). So it's more important to find a good driver for it, one that outputs more than 3.5 Volt, preferably more than that. FluPics seem to work with one LiION and the Q5, as does the various AMC7135 based drivers that are available from the two big Hong Kong vendors.
Stefan


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## selfbuilt (Sep 25, 2007)

*Re: MRV-Q5 vs DX Cree Projection vs stock MRV/Tiablo A8: RUNTIMES and detailed pics!*



StefanFS said:


> FluPics seem to work with one LiION and the Q5, as does the various AMC7135 based drivers that are available from the two big Hong Kong vendors.


I was tempted to try an AMC7135 (I have a few lying around), but don't like the idea of losing ability to run 2xCR123A on such a great light.

I have a Dereelight DBS on order, and similarly went for the 2-stage resistored model so as to keep this same versatiliy. Of course, they also offer a couple of single LiION circuitry modules as well ... might pick up the new 3-stage to see what it is like. Maybe it will convince me to give up primaries completely.

Of course, DBS results will be posted here ...


----------



## johnny13oi (Sep 26, 2007)

*Re: MRV-Q5 vs DX Cree Projection vs stock MRV/Tiablo A8: RUNTIMES and detailed pics!*



selfbuilt said:


> I was tempted to try an AMC7135 (I have a few lying around), but don't like the idea of losing ability to run 2xCR123A on such a great light.
> 
> I have a Dereelight DBS on order, and similarly went for the 2-stage resistored model so as to keep this same versatiliy. Of course, they also offer a couple of single LiION circuitry modules as well ... might pick up the new 3-stage to see what it is like. Maybe it will convince me to give up primaries completely.
> 
> Of course, DBS results will be posted here ...



I thought those AMC drivers were able to tolerate up to 6V if heatsinked or cooled in some way.


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## selfbuilt (Sep 26, 2007)

*Re: MRV-Q5 vs DX Cree Projection vs stock MRV/Tiablo A8: RUNTIMES and detailed pics!*



johnny13oi said:


> I thought those AMC drivers were able to tolerate up to 6V if heatsinked or cooled in some way.


Could be. I know the Kai description on the original 2xAMC7135 circuits say they are good up "<6V". But I bought mine at DX, where they report 4.5V being the spec maximum. Haven't time the time to test it out (don't think I'd want to start in my MRV, though ... maybe a cheapo DX light ).


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## StefanFS (Sep 26, 2007)

*Re: MRV-Q5 vs DX Cree Projection vs stock MRV/Tiablo A8: RUNTIMES and detailed pics!*



selfbuilt said:


> Could be. I now the Kai description on the original 2xAMC7135 circuitssay they are good up "<6V". But I bought mine at DX, where they report 4.5V being the spec maximum. Haven't time the time to test it out (don't think I'd want to start in my MRV, though ... maybe a cheapo DX light ).


 
I use one of the 3 x AMC7135 five mode drivers in my modded and cutdown EYJ U2 style with two CR123. The driver is from DX, but they are the same that Kai sell. Just different retail vendors. No problems so far, it's been in the light about a month. I'm planning a more controlled test with 6 Volts.
Stefan

Edit. Did some testing.....
On 6 Volt it seems to get really hot quick. So *it's not advisable to run the 3x AMC7135 5 mode driver on 6 volts. *
It's OK for up to 4.5 -4.8 Volts.


----------



## selfbuilt (Sep 26, 2007)

*Re: MRV-Q5 vs DX Cree Projection vs stock MRV/Tiablo A8: RUNTIMES and detailed pics!*



StefanFS said:


> I use one of the 3 x AMC7135 five mode drivers in my modded and cutdown EYJ U2 style with two CR123. The driver is from DX, but they are the same that Kai sell. Just different retail vendors. No problems so far, it's been in the light about a month. I'm planning a more controlled test with 6 Volts.


Good to know - I have a couple of the same 3xAMC7135 (bought 2 each from Kai and DX, and they are identical). Haven't had time to try them in anything yet. Looking forward to hearing how your testing turns out.


----------



## StefanFS (Sep 26, 2007)

*Re: MRV-Q5 vs DX Cree Projection vs stock MRV/Tiablo A8: RUNTIMES and detailed pics!*

An update on the above statement. I tested the driver with 6.35 Volts, equivalent to 2x CR123, with the driver free floating and the emitter on a copper slab. The driver got VERY hot inside of 30 seconds. I have tested these drivers before with 4.5-4.8 Volts and with that voltage it runs for hours without heating up, doesn't even get warm.
So *it's not advisable to run the 3x AMC7135 5 mode driver on 6 volts.*
Stefan


----------



## selfbuilt (Sep 26, 2007)

*Re: MRV-Q5 vs DX Cree Projection vs stock MRV/Tiablo A8: RUNTIMES and detailed pics!*

Wow - thanks for speedy test results Stefan. oo: I thought 6V seemed a little too good to be true. I think I'll keep my 3xAMC7135 drivers for single-cell lights, as I originally planned.


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## legtu (Sep 26, 2007)

*Re: MRV-Q5 vs DX Cree Projection vs stock MRV/Tiablo A8: RUNTIMES and detailed pics!*

the amc7135 spec sheet says that it has a voltage range of 2.7-6v but being a linear regulator, it just drops the extra voltage and converts it to heat which also means that it produces more heat the bigger the voltage difference between input and output.


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## Patriot (Sep 26, 2007)

*Re: MRV-Q5 vs DX Cree Projection vs stock MRV/Tiablo A8: RUNTIMES and detailed pics!*

Boy, great run-time with Q5 and 18650.


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## selfbuilt (Sep 27, 2007)

*Re: MRV-Q5 vs DX Cree Projection vs stock MRV/Tiablo A8: RUNTIMES and detailed pics!*



Patriot36 said:


> Boy, great run-time with Q5 and 18650.


Good point, it's easy to loose sight of the fact that it's pretty remarkable to get that degree of throw for 6 hours. Everyone always focuses on the max output with these lights, but that is quite impressive.

I have Dereelight DBS on order (shipping is supposed to begin tomorrow). Will post results once I get it. 

Also just placed an order for the DX WF-600 to see if it really is identical to the Projection Cree. That will certainly take a few weeks to show up. I figured what the heck - Xmas is coming soon, and some of my family members could use a good thrower or two!


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## Elliot (Sep 29, 2007)

*Re: MRV-Q5 vs DX Cree Projection vs stock MRV/Tiablo A8: RUNTIMES and detailed pics!*

nanotech17: Which light died on you?:sigh:

Elliot


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## wai king (Oct 1, 2007)

*Re: MRV-Q5 vs DX Cree Projection vs stock MRV/Tiablo A8: RUNTIMES and detailed pics!*

I have both and they're about the same brightness except the WF600 cannot use 2 r123. I did that by mistake and the cree bulb burnt out right away.


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## wai king (Oct 1, 2007)

*Re: MRV-Q5 vs DX Cree Projection vs stock MRV/Tiablo A8: RUNTIMES and detailed pics!*

Or the circuit burnt out. I can't tell. I just remember that it was on for a second and that was it.


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## nanotech17 (Oct 1, 2007)

*Re: MRV-Q5 vs DX Cree Projection vs stock MRV/Tiablo A8: RUNTIMES and detailed pics!*



Elliot said:


> nanotech17: Which light died on you?:sigh:
> 
> Elliot



DX MRV


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## selfbuilt (Oct 1, 2007)

*Re: MRV-Q5 vs DX Cree Projection vs stock MRV/Tiablo A8: RUNTIMES and detailed pics!*

Just updated the main post - turns out the there is a thin black o-ring in the head, between the glass and the bezel. Thanks to finn for pointing that out - missed it the first time through.


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## selfbuilt (Oct 20, 2007)

*Re: DBS, MRV, Tiablo A8, DX Cree Projection, WF-600: RUNTIMES and detailed pics!*

First post updated with Dereelight DBS review. Also added the DX WF-600 (actual 18650-only version).

Enjoy!


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## WadeF (Oct 20, 2007)

*Re: DBS, MRV, Tiablo A8, DX Cree Projection, WF-600: RUNTIMES and detailed pics!*

Great info selfbuilt! Good to know the DBS out throws the competiton. Shame you don't have a 3-stage Q4, it's impressive.  In my CL1H with SMO reflector it's putting out around 11,500LUX at 1 meter, the 2-stage on HI is around 7,200LUX. Can't wait to see the Q5 3-stage. With the DBS I was getting 30,000-35,000 LUX at 1 meter with the 3-stage Q4. 

Are you getting a Q5 3-stage?  Have access to a Tiablo A9 Q5?


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## selfbuilt (Oct 20, 2007)

*Re: DBS, MRV, Tiablo A8, DX Cree Projection, WF-600: RUNTIMES and detailed pics!*



WadeF said:


> Are you getting a Q5 3-stage?  Have access to a Tiablo A9 Q5?


Alan put a Q4 3-stage into the mail for me already (I was travelling for a few days with no e-mail access). I'm sure it will perform quite well. Since the Q2 is just shy of 20K lux peak (according to my light meter, they all vary), I'm expecting the Q4 will throw in the low to mid 20k range with a good circuit design. 

Don't have access to a Tiablo A9, but there's always other lights to come ...

Great reviews, by the way. Keep 'em up Wade. :thumbsup:


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## WadeF (Oct 21, 2007)

*Re: DBS, MRV, Tiablo A8, DX Cree Projection, WF-600: RUNTIMES and detailed pics!*



selfbuilt said:


> Alan put a Q4 3-stage into the mail for me already (I was travelling for a few days with no e-mail access). I'm sure it will perform quite well. Since the Q2 is just shy of 20K lux peak (according to my light meter, they all vary), I'm expecting the Q4 will throw in the low to mid 20k range with a good circuit design.


 
I'll look forward to your results.

Still waiting on my LUX meter from DX. 

I have been using my Sekonic 408 to take EV readings, then using their chart to convert to LUX. I did get results that matched LUX reading provided by lightreviews.info. So I would think it's pretty accurate. The highest I've gotten off the DBS with 3-stage so far is in the 35,000 LUX range at 1 meter. There could be slight variations with reflectors, the way the pill is screwed in (focused), and I did have a problem with my 3-stage module which has left it stuck in HIGH mode. Alan will be sending me a replacement, but I wonder if the malfunction has resulted in it putting out more lumens than normal.  Like it's driving the Q4 harder than it normally does. When the module was working normally I was getting readings around 30,000LUX. Fastcar got readings of 30,000LUX with a freshly charged 18650 as well, and 25,000LUX after 2 hours! 

The 2-stage HIGH isn't as bright as the 5-stage HIGH. lightreviews has the CL1H SMO wit 2-stage around 7200LUX, the 5-stage around 7990 lux, and I got similar readings with my Sekonic. With the 3-stage Q4 I was getting readings in the 11,500LUX range! That's about a 40% increase. So if you get about 20,000LUX with the 2-stage, and get a 40% increase with the 3-stage Q4, that puts you around 28,000LUX. The DBS may show a larger % increase due to the larger and potentially more efficient reflector.


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## woodrow (Oct 21, 2007)

*Re: DBS, MRV, Tiablo A8, DX Cree Projection, WF-600: RUNTIMES and detailed pics!*

Selfbuilt,
Wow! What an incredible amount of work to do this review...Thanks! Its nice to see #'s or pictures when comparing lights, not just opinion. Thanks again for providing that. 
My Tiablo A8 Q5 should be here Wed, thanks to Lightbrite. I was wondering if buying it was the right thing to do after all the hype of the DBS these last few days. After seeing your graphs on the 18650 batt, I am really happy with my decision. Thanks again.


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## WadeF (Oct 21, 2007)

*Re: DBS, MRV, Tiablo A8, DX Cree Projection, WF-600: RUNTIMES and detailed pics!*



woodrow said:


> Selfbuilt,
> I was wondering if buying it was the right thing to do after all the hype of the DBS these last few days. After seeing your graphs on the 18650 batt, I am really happy with my decision. Thanks again.


 
Not to burst your bubble, but you may change your mind when he posts results of the DBS 3-stage module. :naughty:

In any event, I'm sure the Tiablo will serve you well, and if you feel the DBS would have been the better choice, never hurts to have a 2nd thrower.  

I also noticed the DBS wasn't machine as nice as the CL1H, but it's a very minor issue for me as you really have to look for it, and it still looks great and feels great, and most importanty throws great.


----------



## woodrow (Oct 21, 2007)

*Re: DBS, MRV, Tiablo A8, DX Cree Projection, WF-600: RUNTIMES and detailed pics!*

I think the DBS looks like an incredible light, I am just happy that on the 18650 the Tiablo holds it own with all the lights, and is brighter within 1/2 an hour or so. (when the others are also using 18650's) I am just kind of tired of buying 123a's all the time. I realized that the DBS was not the 3 stage, but the Tiablo was also not the Q5. 

It would not suprise me if the DBS still throws farther than the Tiablo by a good margin, just for me, I wanted a light that did not go down in brighness when a 18650 was put in. Its the one thing I really don't like about my LP M1-R.



WadeF said:


> Not to burst your bubble, but you may change your mind when he posts results of the DBS 3-stage module. :naughty:
> 
> In any event, I'm sure the Tiablo will serve you well, and if you feel the DBS would have been the better choice, never hurts to have a 2nd thrower.
> 
> I also noticed the DBS wasn't machine as nice as the CL1H, but it's a very minor issue for me as you really have to look for it, and it still looks great and feels great, and most importanty throws great.


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## WadeF (Oct 21, 2007)

*Re: DBS, MRV, Tiablo A8, DX Cree Projection, WF-600: RUNTIMES and detailed pics!*



woodrow said:


> It would not suprise me if the DBS still throws farther than the Tiablo by a good margin, just for me, I wanted a light that did not go down in brighness when a 18650 was put in. Its the one thing I really don't like about my LP M1-R.


 
That's what I was getting at. The 3-stage module has very flat regulation with 18650's. It beats out the Tiablo as far as regulation. Fastcar was still getting a reading of 25,000LUX after 2 hours of run time on a 1865, which would indicate the DBS is brighter after 2 hours than the Tiablo A8/A9 Q5 is on startup.


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## selfbuilt (Oct 21, 2007)

*Re: DBS, MRV, Tiablo A8, DX Cree Projection, WF-600: RUNTIMES and detailed pics!*

Just updated main post with a up-close beamshot pic to show overall spillbeam width.

As you'll see, the flipside of the deeper reflector (with increased throw) is the narrower spillbeam. I'm planing to do some outdoor shots, so stay tuned!

I'm sure you'll be happy with the A8-Q5, woodrow. It really is a remarkable light for its regulation (and can still run primaries - a major bonus in my mind). I'm very impressed with mine. We'll see how the new 3-stage DBS module works out in comparison!

Although the DBS is possibly the best *designed* throw light (with its modular format, use of reflector for extended heatsinking, etc.), the Tiablo is probably the best *built* light of the group (with its higher grade aluminum, perfect anodizing, elegant size and feel). Personally, I still consider the MRV the best looking (with its gorgeous chocolate-brown anodizing, nickle-plated heatsink, etc.). Of course, that last point is subjective.


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## StefanFS (Oct 21, 2007)

*Re: DBS, MRV, Tiablo A8, DX Cree Projection, WF-600: RUNTIMES and detailed pics!*



selfbuilt said:


> As you'll see, the flipside of the deeper reflector (with increased throw) is the narrower spillbeam. I'm planing to do some outdoor shots, so stay tuned!
> ....
> Although the DBS is possibly the best *designed* throw light (with its modular format, use of reflector for extended heatsinking, etc.), the Tiablo is probably the best *built* light of the group (with its higher grade aluminum, perfect anodizing, elegant size and feel). Personally, I still consider the MRV the best looking (with its gorgeous chocolate-brown anodizing, nickle-plated heatsink, etc.). Of course, that last point is subjective.


 
I agree on your point about spill area, the deeper the reflector the smaller the spill area gets. It's also a question of reflector geometry, Lumapower got that right on the MRV. It will be nice outdoor shots, I'm sure. I'm really looking forward to your testing of the DBS with a serious module. I might get a DBS when they are available in black, but it depends on how much smaller spill area it has compared to a Tiablo. 
Keep on reviewing,
Stefan


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## woodrow (Oct 21, 2007)

*Re: DBS, MRV, Tiablo A8, DX Cree Projection, WF-600: RUNTIMES and detailed pics!*



WadeF said:


> That's what I was getting at. The 3-stage module has very flat regulation with 18650's. It beats out the Tiablo as far as regulation. Fastcar was still getting a reading of 25,000LUX after 2 hours of run time on a 1865, which would indicate the DBS is brighter after 2 hours than the Tiablo A8/A9 Q5 is on startup.


 
Your Right! But I could not get a DBS in 4 days The DBS really does look like a great light...If I do not buy another HID right away, I might pick one up. As to #'s I personally have more faith in those posted above than the person who you mentioned. Again the DBS looks like a truely great light.


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## WadeF (Oct 21, 2007)

*Re: DBS, MRV, Tiablo A8, DX Cree Projection, WF-600: RUNTIMES and detailed pics!*



woodrow said:


> As to #'s I personally have more faith in those posted above than the person who you mentioned. Again the DBS looks like a truely great light.


 
Keep in mind he hasn't posted anything about the 3-stage module yet.  So I was quoting the results others have gotten so far, and my personal readings agree with their findings so far. I'm looking forward to lightreviews.info's results.


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## Steve L (Oct 21, 2007)

*Re: DBS, MRV, Tiablo A8, DX Cree Projection, WF-600: RUNTIMES and detailed pics!*

I believe the DBS runtime chart was done before the 3 mode Q5 module was released. I think it was done with a Q4.


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## WadeF (Oct 21, 2007)

*Re: DBS, MRV, Tiablo A8, DX Cree Projection, WF-600: RUNTIMES and detailed pics!*



Steve L said:


> I believe the DBS runtime chart was done before the 3 mode Q5 module was released. I think it was done with a Q4.


 
A Q5 should produce the same run times, but with more output, unless the Q5 has a higher VF than the Q4.


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## Steve L (Oct 21, 2007)

*Re: DBS, MRV, Tiablo A8, DX Cree Projection, WF-600: RUNTIMES and detailed pics!*

Looking at the Lux numbers in the chart I think it was done using the OP reflector.


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## woodrow (Oct 22, 2007)

*Re: DBS, MRV, Tiablo A8, DX Cree Projection, WF-600: RUNTIMES and detailed pics!*

I really do like the look of the reflector on the DBS. The only deep reflector lights I have or have had are the SL survivorled (still one of my favorites despite its modest output) and a Heliotek. 

I would still say that any of the above reviewed lights should do as good of a job as a led can lighting up things in the distance. 

What scares me is how much money I am going to want to drop on a HID so I can not just reach out and touch distant targets, but actually light them up. My fear is not getting my Tiablo and being tempted to buy a DBS as well, it is getting my Tiablo and wanting to buy a AE or Microfire.


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## whitedoom34 (Oct 22, 2007)

*Re: DBS, MRV, Tiablo A8, DX Cree Projection, WF-600: RUNTIMES and detailed pics!*



woodrow said:


> What scares me is how much money I am going to want to drop on a HID so I can not just reach out and touch distant targets, but actually light them up. My fear is not getting my Tiablo and being tempted to buy a DBS as well, it is getting my Tiablo and wanting to buy a AE or Microfire.



So true, so true. I was so happy with my Tiablo A8, but the lure of the HID bug was too great... so I now happily own my Tiablo A8 and WE Boxer 24W. Indeed, this is a strange phenomena... If you are impresssed by your Tiablo, prepare to have your mind blown by HIDs.


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## ergotelis (Oct 22, 2007)

*Re: DBS, MRV, Tiablo A8, DX Cree Projection, WF-600: RUNTIMES and detailed pics!*

Just got my 3stage q4 DBS. Now it is next to my A8 Q5, too bad that now it is still day here! At the evening the comparison you all wanted! Canon 350D is the camera of evidence!


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## JKL (Oct 22, 2007)

*Re: DBS, MRV, Tiablo A8, DX Cree Projection, WF-600: RUNTIMES and detailed pics!*



ergotelis said:


> Just got my 3stage q4 DBS. Now it is next to my A8 Q5, too bad that now it is still day here! At the evening the comparison you all wanted! Canon 350D is the camera of evidence!




Very well Ergotelis !!! :twothumbs
We are waiting for beamshots contest DBS vs A8-Q5 :naughty:


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## selfbuilt (Oct 22, 2007)

*Re: DBS, MRV, Tiablo A8, DX Cree Projection, WF-600: RUNTIMES and detailed pics!*

Just updated the main post with a few extra comments on build quality/issues with the DBS. 

Important point to keep in mind is that early shipping versions often have some bugs to work out, which is something we early adopters always potentially face. In my mind, the DBS has a similar number of issues as the early MRV (just different issues), and none of them are insurmountable. The MRV certainly evolved into a fantastic light - we will have to wait and see with the next version DBS.

Might have to wait a few more days for nightime beamshots. I had scouted out a gorgeous location nearby, but Mrs Selfbuilt nixed the idea when she discovered I'd be hiking down a ravine at night.  I'm sure I can find something decent on level ground closer to home ... I'll keep you posted.



StefanFS said:


> I agree on your point about spill area, the deeper the reflector the smaller the spill area gets. It's also a question of reflector geometry, Lumapower got that right on the MRV. It will be nice outdoor shots, I'm sure. I'm really looking forward to your testing of the DBS with a serious module. I might get a DBS when they are available in black, but it depends on how much smaller spill area it has compared to a Tiablo.


+1 on all fronts. Good point about the geometry - this is why the wider/deeper DX plastic reflectors throw so similarly to the MRV (i.e. they seem to have matched the geometric profile well). I have to say, I personally prefer this MRV-style beam profile over the DBS. Ever since the early days of the Fenix, I've always liked a defined hotspot with a fairly even, large spill beam (like the MRV). The DBS has a much brigther corona around the hotspot, and narrower overall spillbeam width.

Probably a good call to wait until the black versions are out. Hopefully the machining and anodizing issues will be resolved by then (and hopefully they will have found a better thread lube that doesn't migrate to contact surfaces). But the spillbeam width is considerably less than the Tiablo ...



WadeF said:


> A Q5 should produce the same run times, but with more output, unless the Q5 has a higher VF than the Q4.


Yes, that reasoning seems likely if Vf is indeed the culprit here (which I suspect it is). Both the Q4/Q5 are known to have higher Vfs over the P4/Q2, which explain the increased runtime with neglible output different on 18650 in multipower circuits.



Steve L said:


> Looking at the Lux numbers in the chart I think it was done using the OP reflector.


If you are referring to my chart, no, they are all smooth reflectors. The reason my absolute numbers look lower is my light meter. There is natural variation between all light meters, you can't compare one to another. What matters is that the results are internally consistent (i.e. the meter gives verifiable reliable comparison data, even if its absolute calibration differs from others).


----------



## Steve L (Oct 22, 2007)

*Re: DBS, MRV, Tiablo A8, DX Cree Projection, WF-600: RUNTIMES and detailed pics!*

Hi Selfuilt, Are you using this lux meter from DX: http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.5100. I have this meter and am getting lower readings than other people. MRV1 12500 lux, MRV 2 13000 lux, Tiablo A9 15500lux, you get the idea. All readings taken at 1m with a smooth reflector and 2 fully charged RCR123's.


----------



## Illumination (Oct 22, 2007)

*Re: DBS, MRV, Tiablo A8, DX Cree Projection, WF-600: RUNTIMES and detailed pics!*

Has anyone compared any of these lights to the Streamlight TL-3? Curious how yesterday's standby 'throw monster' compares to these new LED throw champs. (These LED lights put out around 250 lumens...i think the TL-3 was at least that. With the Carley bulb I think the TL-3 passed 300 lumens)

(Yes I know the TL-3 uses 3 batteries while these use one or two...still curious how the throw and brightness compare...clearly the TL-3 has no chance of competing on efficiency.)


----------



## Nitro (Oct 23, 2007)

*Re: DBS, MRV, Tiablo A8, DX Cree Projection, WF-600: RUNTIMES and detailed pics!*



Illumination said:


> Has anyone compared any of these lights to the Streamlight TL-3? Curious how yesterday's standby 'throw monster' compares to these new LED throw champs. (These LED lights put out around 250 lumens...i think the TL-3 was at least that. With the Carley bulb I think the TL-3 passed 300 lumens)
> 
> (Yes I know the TL-3 uses 3 batteries while these use one or two...still curious how the throw and brightness compare...clearly the TL-3 has no chance of competing on efficiency.)


 
Check out my "Got Throw?" link.

I'm still waiting on that Carley bulb though.


----------



## Outdoors Fanatic (Oct 23, 2007)

*Re: DBS, MRV, Tiablo A8, DX Cree Projection, WF-600: RUNTIMES and detailed pics!*

So the Tiablos are still the only Super-Throwers that are actually fully-regulated?


----------



## selfbuilt (Oct 23, 2007)

*Re: DBS, MRV, Tiablo A8, DX Cree Projection, WF-600: RUNTIMES and detailed pics!*



Steve L said:


> Hi Selfuilt, Are you using this lux meter from DX: http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.5100. I have this meter and am getting lower readings than other people. MRV1 12500 lux, MRV 2 13000 lux, Tiablo A9 15500lux, you get the idea. All readings taken at 1m with a smooth reflector and 2 fully charged RCR123's.


Yup, I use the same one for throw values. Its calibration does seem lower compared to most others. But I have verified that its response is linear across an inverse square distance, so it appears to be reporting in a consistent fashion. 

FYI, my lightbox is a home-made job with a built-in integrated photoresistive cell, which is why those numbers are typically on a relative scale in my other reviews. In this case, I've calibrated my runtimes to initial throw lux @1m.



Outdoors Fanatic said:


> So the Tiablos are still the only Super-Throwers that are actually fully-regulated?


Well, only the A8 is fully regulated - I don't have the Tiablo A9, but I imagine its runtimes look more like the other multipower lights (especially on 18650). 

Frankly, it's very difficult to get a fully regulated light over a ~3-9V input range. Only reason Tiablo could do it on the A8 is they actually have a narrower range (i.e. only up to 6V). I expect the replacement 3-stage Q4 module for my DBS (which is 18650-only) should be very well regulated. I'll let update the runtimes when I receive it.


----------



## Dr.Glock27 (Oct 23, 2007)

*Re: DBS, MRV, Tiablo A8, DX Cree Projection, WF-600: RUNTIMES and detailed pics!*

Great review. I have the Tiablo A9S and Im lloking forward to the arrival of my WF600. I would have wanted to get the DBS but . For christmas perhaps?:twothumbs By the way, does anyone have any idea how good the WF800 is? Others say its a bit dimmer than the WF600 but a lot longer runtime...insights?


----------



## StefanFS (Oct 23, 2007)

*Re: DBS, MRV, Tiablo A8, DX Cree Projection, WF-600: RUNTIMES and detailed pics!*

Selfbuilt,
I'm getting an itch to get one black DBS with Q5 module. Please continue to deconstruct the light and it's features. Right now I've decided to wait for black with Q5, I'm not conviced yet about the throw values of over 30 000 Lux at ~1000 mA, I'll have to test it myself.
Stefan


----------



## maxilux (Oct 23, 2007)

*Re: DBS, MRV, Tiablo A8, DX Cree Projection, WF-600: RUNTIMES and detailed pics!*



Illumination said:


> Has anyone compared any of these lights to the Streamlight TL-3? Curious how yesterday's standby 'throw monster' compares to these new LED throw champs. (These LED lights put out around 250 lumens...i think the TL-3 was at least that. With the Carley bulb I think the TL-3 passed 300 lumens)



Yes, i compare the A8 an A9 to the TL3 and the Tiablo throws out the TL3 without any problems


----------



## WadeF (Oct 23, 2007)

*Re: DBS, MRV, Tiablo A8, DX Cree Projection, WF-600: RUNTIMES and detailed pics!*



StefanFS said:


> Selfbuilt,
> I'm getting an itch to get one black DBS with Q5 module. Please continue to deconstruct the light and it's features. Right now I've decided to wait for black with Q5, I'm not conviced yet about the throw values of over 30 000 Lux at ~1000 mA, I'll have to test it myself.
> Stefan


 
Be sure to share your results.  What meter will you be using?

BTW, I used my Sekonic 408 Meter and used Sekonic's EV to LUX chart. It only gives conversions for every 0.5 EV, so I can only come up with ball park #'s, like 25,000, 30,000 and then just estimate in between. 

I can say that I compared lights reviewed on lightreview.info, such as the Dereelight 5-stage w/ smooth reflector, and came up with the same #'s they did. They came up with ~21,500LUX for the Tiablo A8 Q5 I believe, and I got 35,000LUX from my DBS with one of my tests. Now, I will say I was testing with a 3-stage Q4 that malfucntioned and is stuck in high, so I don't know if it's outputting more than it would normally output on high. I had another 3-stage module that also failed and I got around 30,000LUX with that. So either I found a brighter part of the hot spot, the pill is sending more current to the Q4, or the one Q4 is brighter than the other Q4, which is possible (could have one on the low end, one on the high end).

I also have a new reflector for the DBS as the one I got initially had a rainbow around the hot spot.  I will have to test the two and see which one has a brighter hot spot. I'm going to wait for the LUX meter from DX to do more testing.


----------



## selfbuilt (Oct 23, 2007)

*Re: DBS, MRV, Tiablo A8, DX Cree Projection, WF-600: RUNTIMES and detailed pics!*



StefanFS said:


> Selfbuilt,
> I'm getting an itch to get one black DBS with Q5 module. Please continue to deconstruct the light and it's features. Right now I've decided to wait for black with Q5, I'm not conviced yet about the throw values of over 30 000 Lux at ~1000 mA, I'll have to test it myself.
> Stefan


Will do - and I think that's a wise decision to wait. Hopefully Dereelight will have resolved the machining and anodizing issues on the Q5 black version.

Unfortunately, my replacement module is only going to be a Q4, but I'd have to say I imagine 30K lux is possible with Q5 (depending on the calibration of one's light meter). My MRV P4-Q5 mod resulted in a ~25% increase in output on primaries, which translated in a jump from 109 (sqrt of 11,800lux) to 135 (sqrt of 18,200lux) on my output scale. Since my Q2 DBS on primaries can reach ~140 (~19,500lux) on my scale, a ~20% jump to Q5 (which is possible) could net you ~168, or >28,000 lux on my setup. Certainly sounds believable to me that someone else's lightmeter could get 30K lux.



WadeF said:


> So either I found a brighter part of the hot spot, the pill is sending more current to the Q4, or the one Q4 is brighter than the other Q4, which is possible (could have one on the low end, one on the high end).
> I also have a new reflector for the DBS as the one I got initially had a rainbow around the hot spot.  I will have to test the two and see which one has a brighter hot spot.


Interesting reflector issue - of course, there's not much point in hitting some arbitrary lux level if it means your beam is showing the rainbow or your circuit is FUBARed. :laughing:

Since light decays by an inverse square law, a ~23% increase in output will easily take you from ~20,000 lux to ~30,000 lux. And the difference between ~30,000lux and 35,000lux is only 8% (again, due to non-linearity of sqrts), which is almost falling within bin variability (not to mention light meter variabiliy, etc.).

Unfortunately, I think the non-linearity of lux (and perhaps a general lack of statistical thinking) is contributing to people getting a little too worked up around here with the actual throw numbers. It will all sort itself out once enough people have these lights in their hot little hands.  

I used to do a lot of estimated conversions from my home-made setup before I had the DX lux meter. Certainly makes it a lot easier now - I'm sure you'll enjoy yours when it comes.


----------



## WadeF (Oct 23, 2007)

*Re: DBS, MRV, Tiablo A8, DX Cree Projection, WF-600: RUNTIMES and detailed pics!*

Yeah, I really want to hear from people who have the Tiablo A9 Q5 (or whatever Tiablo's top thrower set up is) and the DBS with the Q5 3-stage, and how they compare in the real world. From my experience I can light up trees (not the most reflective things) at 1,000 feet, maybe more. I have to do more testing at the lake on a clear night. Someone said they lit up restrooms at 800 feet with a Tiablo, but were they painted with a light colored paint? Was it the restroom reflective signs lighting up?  The object being lit up makes a differece, a white building with a shiney paint job will light up a lot easier than trees, or dark rocks, etc.

Maybe CPF needs an official target. Like a 3x3 white board, maybe with different shades of grey on it. Like "White and light grey visible at 1,000 feet", "Only white visiable at 1,200 feet" etc.

Then we could place this target somewhere, and see how far away we can light it up.


----------



## StefanFS (Oct 24, 2007)

*Re: DBS, MRV, Tiablo A8, DX Cree Projection, WF-600: RUNTIMES and detailed pics!*

A (possibly off topic) question to any of the DBS reviewers who may know the answer. What's the diameter & thickness of the lens?
Thanks,
Stefan


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## selfbuilt (Oct 24, 2007)

*Re: DBS, MRV, Tiablo A8, DX Cree Projection, WF-600: RUNTIMES and detailed pics!*



StefanFS said:


> A (possibly off topic) question to any of the DBS reviewers who may know the answer. What's the diameter & thickness of the lens?


Just tried opening the head, and the reflector wouldn't budge by hand. I will have to break out the strap wrenches later. I notice Wade got his opened for the pics in his review, maybe he had a chance to take a measurement?

What I can tell you is that the internal diameter of the aluminum bezel seems to be about the same as my MRV and Tiablo A8. Hopefully the lens will be of similar diameter ... of course, as we all know from the flashlightlens.com experience, exact measurements and tolerances can be tricky.


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## SoSa (Oct 25, 2007)

*Re: DBS, MRV, Tiablo A8, DX Cree Projection, WF-600: RUNTIMES and detailed pics!*



selfbuilt said:


> Just tried opening the head, and the reflector wouldn't budge by hand. I will have to break out the strap wrenches later. I notice Wade got his opened for the pics in his review, maybe he had a chance to take a measurement?
> 
> What I can tell you is that the internal diameter of the aluminum bezel seems to be about the same as my MRV and Tiablo A8. Hopefully the lens will be of similar diameter ... of course, as we all know from the flashlightlens.com experience, exact measurements and tolerances can be tricky.



I had to clean the inside of the glass lens, it had some light (but visible) fingerprints/smears inside the lens.
It was easy to open, all I had to do is to turn counterclockwise the reflector relative to the bezel. I used no tools, opened it simply by bare hands.

Unfortunately, i took no measurements, and don't want the light to open it once more. 
Judging by eyesight the thickness is about 1,5 mm, and the diameter is around 43,5 mm.


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## woodrow (Oct 25, 2007)

*Re: DBS, MRV, Tiablo A8, DX Cree Projection, WF-600: RUNTIMES and detailed pics!*

I am sitting here at work and no one is here, so I was playing with the Tiablo and one of my SL SurvivorLED's. I really wish SL would update theirs with a top of the line led, or I may have someone mod it for me, because the SL led's hotspot is 1/3 tighter than the Tiablo's. I think with the right led it might really throw.


----------



## Wilkerson Brasil (Oct 26, 2007)

*Re: DBS, MRV, Tiablo A8, DX Cree Projection, WF-600: RUNTIMES and detailed pics!*

I just received my DX Cree Projection multi power and don´t know how to insert the batteries :candle: . There´s no indication on the flashlight. Wich way does the batteries go in?

Can someone help-me?
I waited almost 20 days for my flashlight and don´t want to burn it.


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## selfbuilt (Oct 26, 2007)

*Re: DBS, MRV, Tiablo A8, DX Cree Projection, WF-600: RUNTIMES and detailed pics!*



Wilkerson Brasil said:


> I just received my DX Cree Projection multi power and don´t know how to insert the batteries :candle: . There´s no indication on the flashlight. Wich way does the batteries go in?


Good question to ask first, as I don't think the light has reverse polarity protection. You don't want it to go  

For all the lights in the round-up except the DBS, the batteries go in positive toward the head and negative toward the tailcap. The DBS is the same for the 3-stage switch, but reversed for the 2-stage.

So just make sure you put the positive battery end in first toward the head of the DX Cree Projection and you will be fine.

Oh, and :welcome:


----------



## selfbuilt (Oct 26, 2007)

*Re: DBS, MRV, Tiablo A8, DX Cree Projection, WF-600: RUNTIMES and pics - DBS-Q4 UPDAT*

Just updated 1st post with my DBS 3-stage Q4 results. 

Reasonably good gain in output on Hi (~15% more output than Q2 on 18650). But regulation is particularly impressive - as flat as the Tiablo, but with a moon-mode instead of complete shut-off. Sorry I didn't let it run longer, but I could see some slight flickering at that point, and didn't want to take any chances on my 18650. I may re-test again later.

I think I need to repeat the primary test on 2-stage Q2, since my throw "estimate" seems unreliable (got brighter over the run, but only measured actual throw in Lux at the beginning). I may need to re-configure my system to do direct throw measures instead of output, since I find the herky-jerky runtime pattern on this module problematic. I'll keep you posted .... :wave:


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## WadeF (Oct 26, 2007)

*Re: DBS, MRV, Tiablo A8, DX Cree Projection, WF-600: RUNTIMES and pics - DBS-Q4 UPDAT*

Looks good Selfbuilt. I have 3-stage Q5 WF's on the way.  Should boost the LUX 2-3,000 with the DBS on high.

May I ask what LUX meter you are using? I got my DX LUX meter, seems to read very low. I may try another.


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## selfbuilt (Oct 26, 2007)

*Re: DBS, MRV, Tiablo A8, DX Cree Projection, WF-600: RUNTIMES and pics - DBS-Q4 UPDAT*



WadeF said:


> Looks good Selfbuilt. I have 3-stage Q5 WF's on the way.  Should boost the LUX 2-3,000 with the DBS on high.
> May I ask what LUX meter you are using? I got my DX LUX meter, seems to read very low. I may try another.


I'm also using the DX meter. My results typically seem to be a bit lower than most other people's, but not unusually so. Good luck with getting a replacement.


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## WadeF (Oct 26, 2007)

*Re: DBS, MRV, Tiablo A8, DX Cree Projection, WF-600: RUNTIMES and pics - DBS-Q4 UPDAT*



selfbuilt said:


> I'm also using the DX meter. My results typically seem to be a bit lower than most other people's, but not unusually so. Good luck with getting a replacement.


 
I'm just going to stick with the DX meter I have. I have another meter on order so I'll see what results it gives. I may just do multiple readings from various meters and post all the results. I'll work up a chart or something. So we could compae our readings with our DX meters and see where they fall.


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## Steve L (Oct 27, 2007)

*Re: DBS, MRV, Tiablo A8, DX Cree Projection, WF-600: RUNTIMES and pics - DBS-Q4 UPDAT*



WadeF said:


> Looks good Selfbuilt. I have 3-stage Q5 WF's on the way.  Should boost the LUX 2-3,000 with the DBS on high.
> 
> May I ask what LUX meter you are using? I got my DX LUX meter, seems to read very low. I may try another.


I have the same one, I couldn't agree more. MRV1 12500lux, MRV2 13000lux, Tiablo A9 Q5 15500lux, DBS 3 stage Q4 17500lux very repeatable results. At 1m with smooth reflector. All but the DBS with 2 fully charged RCR123's, DBS with fully charged 18650


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## FASTCAR (Oct 27, 2007)

My DBS and a few others have quite a few more lux.Better VF maybee?

The tiablos and MRvs I tested are right about what you got.
My DBS is right around 30 000 lux at the start.



Tiablo who?
MRV who?


Great review..nice job.

Fastcar says BS is a Flamethrower and king of kings:twothumbs
Cant wait for a R5


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## WadeF (Oct 27, 2007)

I was getting around 30,000LUX when I used my Sekonic light meter, converting the EV to LUX with Sekonic's chart.

The DX meter was showing a little over 19,000LUX. 

I don't know how accurate the results are on lightreviews.info, but my Sekonic meter agrees with their #'s when I compared the results I got from my CL1H 5-stage to theirs. The DX meter was much lower than their results.


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## Wilkerson Brasil (Oct 27, 2007)

Thank you Selfbuilt.

I tested my thrower yesterday at night and saw how far it can throw. Pretty good. I will upgrade whit a Q5 and take some beamshots.

Nice review. It helped a lot.


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## selfbuilt (Oct 27, 2007)

I see ernsanada just posted his review of the 3-stage DBS. Looks like he gets very similar throw values to mine (he also has a 1st gen MRV). 

Glad you are all finding my reviews useful.


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## woodrow (Oct 27, 2007)

From the results I have seen, the output of the A8/9 Q5's and the DBS 3 stage look pretty similar (within 10-15% of each other) I do not think one's led could be much brighter than the other, just the shape of the beam. I do think having 3 levels of light would be nice though. 

After looking at ernsanada's review, based on the quality of the Tiablo's finish vs. the DBS's finish, I do not think I will spend the extra money to get the DBS. Had I not allready had a Tiablo though...the decesion of which to buy would be much harder.


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## selfbuilt (Oct 28, 2007)

woodrow said:


> From the results I have seen, the output of the A8/9 Q5's and the DBS 3 stage look pretty similar (within 10-15% of each other) I do not think one's led could be much brighter than the other, just the shape of the beam. I do think having 3 levels of light would be nice though.


From my informal "ceiling bounce" tests, I would say the DBS-Q2 is putting out a little more light overall than the Tiablo A8-Q2 (~10% more on the ceiling bounce), suggesting it is being driven a little harder. Can't really say about the Q5 versions, since I don't have a A8-Q5, but I would say most of the differences between the lights comes down to reflector geometry/depth for throw.



> After looking at ernsanada's review, based on the quality of the Tiablo's finish vs. the DBS's finish, I do not think I will spend the extra money to get the DBS. Had I not allready had a Tiablo though...the decesion of which to buy would be much harder.


Have to agree with you there, the Tiablo (and 2nd gen MRVs) have the nicest finish. Note also that the DBS is almost 50% heavier than the Tiablo A8 without batteries (220g vs 150g), and a good 1.2+ cm taller, so that might factor in for some people as well.

Incidentally, since some have started asking about holsters, I've found that Stallion half-hoster for Inova T4/T5 lights fits all 3 premium lights, the DBS and Tiablo A8 and MRV. The A8 is actually the tighest squeeze, but it works.


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## WadeF (Oct 28, 2007)

selfbuilt said:


> Incidentally, since some have started asking about holsters, I've found that Stallion half-hoster for Inova T4/T5 lights fits all 3 premium lights, the DBS and Tiablo A8 and MRV. The A8 is actually the tighest squeeze, but it works.


 
I'll have to try that if the one I ordered doesn't work out. BTW:

*Stallion Leather Half-Holder for Inova T4 and T5 Flashlights PSH-AW*

[FONT=arial, helvetica]Ballistic nylon flashlight holder for the Inova T4 or T5 LED flashlights. Open ended half-holder[/FONT] 
So is it leather or ballistic nylon?  Looks like nylon in the pic.


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## selfbuilt (Oct 28, 2007)

WadeF said:


> So is it leather or ballistic nylon?  Looks like nylon in the pic.


Mine is nylon.


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## woodrow (Oct 29, 2007)

Thanks for adding the 3 stage Q4 DBS to the lineup. It looks like your lux readings are right on with most other peoples. It looks like the A8/9 Q5 light are putting out about 21k lux as well. So the DBS has a tighter beam and the A8/9 have a little wider spill. Overall output looks about the same, so one should buy the light based on what style of beam they like because to me, the lights look pretty close to each other in what they will do.


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## WadeF (Oct 29, 2007)

woodrow said:


> Thanks for adding the 3 stage Q4 DBS to the lineup. It looks like your lux readings are right on with most other peoples. It looks like the A8/9 Q5 light are putting out about 21k lux as well.


 
The A8/A9 Q2 he has was about 3,000LUX lower than the DBS Q2. With Q5 in ech the A8/A9 will still be behind the DBS. His reading of 21k lux is his meter, which may differ from other people's meters. I would expect a Q5 Tiablo to be around 17-19k lux on his meter, and Q5 DBS to be around 23k lux.

I almost want to buy a Tiablo A9 Q5 so I can do a detailed comparision.


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## woodrow (Oct 30, 2007)

WadeF said:


> I almost want to buy a Tiablo A9 Q5 so I can do a detailed comparision.


 
I feel the same way about the DBS!


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## StefanFS (Oct 30, 2007)

I got these numbers from my Tiablo A9 Q5 with the stock driver before modding it.

_Output, throw in Lux @ one metre, high/low:_ 

AW 18650 LiION: 18 500/2790 Lux.
AW RCR123 LiION: 21 500/12 700 Lux.
CR123 Energizer Primary cells: 20 700/7240 Lux.
My meters are within a few hundred Lux of a number of others who are active on this forum. My meters are a little higher than Selfbuilts meter. I believe I get fairly accurate numbers from these meters.

After modding it with a FluPic and UCL-type glass my A9 produce the magic number of 29700 Lux in throw @ one metre.

When I see the reported throw values for the various DBS-pills with that extreme reflector I suspect that the led does not see 1A. The Tiablos stock drivers do not get 1A to the led with any cell types (both A8 & A9). So, with another driver that really deliver 1-1.2 A to the led and better glass the DBS would be a blast.

The difference between MRV and Tiablo reflectors is the depth (the diameter and 'general' surface geometry is similar), the Tiablo reflectors are 4 mm deeper than the MRV reflectors and the difference in throw is about 9000 Lux with the same type of driver, lens and emitter. The MRV reflector is 32 mm deep, the Tiablo 36 mm deep and the DBS reflector is 42 mm deep. So, the DBS reflector is 6 mm deeper than the Tiablo reflector, that should produce more throw than have been measured to date. Unless there is a limit to how deep a functioning CREE reflector can be. Not only depth matters, the geometry of the reflector surface might be different, to me the DBS reflector looks to be more narrow. It might be a heatsinking consideration to avoid driving the emitter too hard in the DBS.
This is all just speculation until I get my own DBS to test.

Stefan


----------



## blackwaterstout (Oct 30, 2007)

*Re: DX Cree Projection vs Lumapower MRV vs Tiablo A8: RUNTIMES and detailed pics!*

Nice review!

I'm looking for a <$30 thrower and those two DX lights have peaked my interest. But after my one and only DX buying experience I'm a little gunshy about buying from them again. How would the throw from those two DX lights compare to the throw and output of the Task Force 2C Cree lights being sold at Lowes right now?


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## selfbuilt (Oct 30, 2007)

WadeF said:


> The A8/A9 Q2 he has was about 3,000LUX lower than the DBS Q2. With Q5 in ech the A8/A9 will still be behind the DBS. His reading of 21k lux is his meter, which may differ from other people's meters. I would expect a Q5 Tiablo to be around 17-19k lux on his meter, and Q5 DBS to be around 23k lux.


I'd say those are realistic estimates. My light meter, while internally consistent, seems to be toward the low-end of the range of reliable values posted here at CPF. So, I would expect the Q5 A8/A9 to throw a couple of thousand lux less far than the Q5 DBS. Not that I plan on picking one up to test - I'll let someone else smoke their credit card for that pleasure. :laughing:

But as Stefan pointed out (and thanks for the throw numbers, BTW!), I think this is mainly due to reflector depth and geometry rather than how hard it is driving the emitter. That being said, both my milk carton lightbox and informal "ceiling bounce" test tells me the Q2-DBS is putting out more light overall than the Q2-A8 or Q2-MRV. Unfortunately, I can't really quantify that, since it's hard to accurately determine overall output on such throwy lights.

In any case, with stock drivers installed, I think it just comes down to what sort of beam pattern and runtime characteristics you like. Personally, I like the MRV's large defined hotspot over the Tiablo/DBS' smaller hotspot with brighter corona. That being said, the DBS sure does throw pretty damn far on 18650 ....



blackwaterstout said:


> I'm looking for a <$30 thrower and those two DX lights have peaked my interest. But after my one and only DX buying experience I'm a little gunshy about buying from them again. How would the throw from those two DX lights compare to the throw and output of the Task Force 2C Cree lights being sold at Lowes right now?


Can't say, since I don't have the Task Force 2C light. If you search around the main LED forum, you may find someone who has both.

As for buying from DX, I can understand your frustration - I have had numerous broken or wrong items arrive. But they have always been good about replacing anything defective or mislabelled - you just have to wait for replacement shipping. Build quality can be an issue, but the WF-600 and Projection Cree are at the higher end of most of the lights I've bought there.


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## Steve L (Oct 30, 2007)

I have just taken some quick lux readings at 1m using the DX 200000 lux meter. MRV1(Q2) 13020 lux, MRV2(Q2) 13110 lux, Tiablo A9(Q5) 15130 lux, DBS(Q4-3 stage) 17270 lux. By my meter the DBS out throws the Tiablo by 2140 lux and it's using a Q4 while the Tiablo is using a Q5. I do believe the main difference is the depth of the reflectors. The reflector depth: DBS>A9>MRV, conversely the hot spot(size, not intensity) and spill beam MRV>A9>DBS. The DBS using an fully charged 18650. The A9 and MRV's using 2 fully charged RCR123's. All lights using smooth reflectors.


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## WadeF (Oct 30, 2007)

Either all our DX LUX meters read really low, or everyone else's meters are high.  I'm guessing our meters are reading low, but thank you Steve for being able to compare all those lights on the same meter. Addng the Q5 to the DBS should result in about a 2,000LUX gain. I may have a DBS 3-Stage R2 by next week.  Just waiting on the R2 bin to show up and the Q5 3-stages (I have 3 on the way)


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## Steve L (Oct 30, 2007)

Hi Wade, I tend to agree that the DX meters are reading low. I have a CL1H on the way equipped with the 3 stage Q5 pill. When it comes in I will try it in the DBS and take further readings.


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## Lighthouse one (Oct 30, 2007)

Blackwater: I just got a Lowes task force 2C. Several weeks ago I got to handle a DX 600 projection. THe DX 600 has a large reflector- thus a very tight and long throwing spot...say, over 600 feet. The Task force uses plastic optics, and has a very strong and useful main spot area that is 3 or 4 times the size of the WF 600 spot- but useful for say -300 feet. THe spill is weak on the task force, but still acceptable. THe light is plastic, and a bit cheap up close. THe WF 600 is solid metal and feels much sturdier. 

Either light is a good value for the cost....just depends what you want. Everyone always says they want a 1,000 foot spot, but almost never really needs it. The Task Force is a very useful light, and unless you really need that monster throw...it's a very good light.


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## blackwaterstout (Oct 31, 2007)

Lighthouse one said:


> Blackwater: I just got a Lowes task force 2C. Several weeks ago I got to handle a DX 600 projection. THe DX 600 has a large reflector- thus a very tight and long throwing spot...say, over 600 feet. The Task force uses plastic optics, and has a very strong and useful main spot area that is 3 or 4 times the size of the WF 600 spot- but useful for say -300 feet. THe spill is weak on the task force, but still acceptable. THe light is plastic, and a bit cheap up close. THe WF 600 is solid metal and feels much sturdier.
> 
> Either light is a good value for the cost....just depends what you want. Everyone always says they want a 1,000 foot spot, but almost never really needs it. The Task Force is a very useful light, and unless you really need that monster throw...it's a very good light.


 
Thanks. Very helpful indeed. I want to pull the trigger on a DX Spotting torch but after my last purchase from DX I'm hesitant. Good to hear that the quality of the 600 is better than the average DX light. I would like to have a light with a killer throw to take on my bass boat for those late night catfishing trips. Thanks again.


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## markone (Nov 1, 2007)

*Re: DBS, MRV, Tiablo A8, DX Cree Projection, WF-600: RUNTIMES and detailed pics!*



Dr.Glock27 said:


> By the way, does anyone have any idea how good the WF800 is? Others say its a bit dimmer than the WF600 but a lot longer runtime...insights?



Well, i simple swapped the original emitter with a Q5 on mine WF800, both from DX, and now it is on pair with mine A9 for beam and throw : 19000Lux @ 1meter.

Good deal for 37 + 10 : 47 USD.


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## selfbuilt (Nov 12, 2007)

Updated main post with results for Regal WT1. :thumbsup:

Sorry no new pics, but Stefan's excellent review thread has everything you could want to see. Link is in the first post.

:kiss:


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## WadeF (Nov 12, 2007)

I'd be interested to hear what you think of the Dereelight CL1H V3 with SMO reflector and the new 2-stage Digital Q5 1.2A pill in comparison to the Regal WT1. I would think they'd be in the same league as far as throw.


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## mrQQ (Nov 13, 2007)

hello,

of Cree Projection and WF-600, which one do you prefer more and why?

and also, how does *Super Thrower Far Projection 3W Cree P4 Flashlight 2x18650 2x18500 *compare to them..?


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## selfbuilt (Nov 13, 2007)

WadeF said:


> I'd be interested to hear what you think of the Dereelight CL1H V3 with SMO reflector and the new 2-stage Digital Q5 1.2A pill in comparison to the Regal WT1. I would think they'd be in the same league as far as throw.


Could be, but I don't have the CL1H to compare (and don't plan to pick it up). The Regal light was more a curiosity purchase from a new manufacturer. 



mrQQ said:


> of Cree Projection and WF-600, which one do you prefer more and why?
> and also, how does *Super Thrower Far Projection 3W Cree P4 Flashlight 2x18650 2x18500 *compare to them..?


Personally, I like the option of multipower circuits allowing the use of primaries as a backup. However, the 18650-only lights are typically brighter (since optimized for that lower voltage). Build quality is the same, so I would simply go with whatever matches your predicted usage. If you plan to only run the light on 18650, the WF-600 would be a better choice for max output.

I don't have the 2x18650 lights to compare. If you search around this forum, you will find comparisons by people who have both the 1X and 2X18650 versions. I would expect much longer runtime with a slight bump in output (if the circuits were appropriately designed), but that's not necessarily the case (i.e if they bugger the circuit, you could have lower output than 1X18650). Best to check with folks who actually have shipping lights in their hands.


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## mrQQ (Nov 13, 2007)

uh, thanks a lot! i'll try to look more


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## coucoujojo (Nov 27, 2007)

Do you think the RAIDFIRE will beat those flashlight?


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## selfbuilt (Nov 27, 2007)

We'll find out - EDGETAC is sending me one to review. 

Given the excellent performance of the Regal WT1 (with its much smaller reflector), I see no reason why the RaidFire Spear couldn't easily match or even exceed the MRVs or Tiablo lights matched with an equivalent emitter. I'd be surprised if it beats the DBS matched with the new Q5 and dual-stage digital (supposedly drives it at 1.2A). But we'll see how it does against my Q4 3-stage digital DBS.

EDGE will be sending me the light to review at the same time the rest are ready to ship (Dec 10 estimate).


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## sims2k (Nov 30, 2007)

Great review. I can now make better informed decision on which lights I am buying next. Thanks.


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## coucoujojo (Dec 6, 2007)

I already have a LUMAPOWER M1 cree, i want to know if it is worth to buy a Raidfire.


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## selfbuilt (Dec 8, 2007)

coucoujojo said:


> I already have a LUMAPOWER M1 cree, i want to know if it is worth to buy a Raidfire.


The M1 is a different class of light - more an all-purpose light as opposed to a thrower (which would be the Lumapower MRV). FYI, EDGETAC will be sending me a Raidfire to review, so I will update my results here once they are ready.


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## mrQQ (Dec 9, 2007)

I wonder how does UltraFire C2 Q5 stand against these? i read somewhere that DX call it their best thrower.

They also have an updated Q5 versions of 1x18650 WF-600 and 2x18650 WF-800 - would be nice to check those aswell..


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## coucoujojo (Dec 9, 2007)

mrQQ said:


> I wonder how does UltraFire C2 Q5 stand against these? i read somewhere that DX call it their best thrower.
> 
> They also have an updated Q5 versions of 1*x18650 WF-600** and 2x18650 WF-800 - would be nice to check those aswell..*



+1


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## selfbuilt (Dec 9, 2007)

mrQQ said:


> They also have an updated Q5 versions of 1x18650 WF-600 and 2x18650 WF-800 - would be nice to check those aswell..


I've seen those ... but don't have any immediate plans to pick them up. Since it's probable that they still have the same circuit as the earlier models, the effect of going from Q2 to Q5 is likely to only be ~15% increase. If you compare my MRV Q5-mod to the stock MRV Q2 and P4 results, it should give you a rough idea of what to expect from these new lights. Build quality also looks the same, except for the HA.


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## Flight_Deck (Dec 20, 2007)

Fantastic review, and very helpful. 

Thanks for putting all this together! :twothumbs


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## MstrHnky (Dec 20, 2007)

i ordered the aurora wf-600 Q5 18650 model back in november, but i was recently reimbursed because the item is backordered.

i'll keep my eyes open for when it's back in stock.


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## selfbuilt (Dec 20, 2007)

MstrHnky said:


> i ordered the aurora wf-600 Q5 18650 model back in november, but i was recently reimbursed because the item is backordered.


That is too bad. FYI, I'm waiting to receive this light from Kai Domain:

SmartFire CREE V-68C Q5 4Modes LED Flashlight Black(1 x 18650)

Looks good from the description. I'll add it to review once it comes in.

The EDGETAC RaidFire should hopefully be here by Christmas as well - that review will have priority in being posted here, of course. 

*EDIT*: the review for the Smartfire is now up here:SmartFire V-68C "Q5" MRV-clone


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## Ilikeshinythings (Jan 9, 2008)

That does look like a pretty nice light from smartfire (ultrafire?). I have an ultrafire R1 rebel light and it is well built, bright as hell and pretty handy.


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## selfbuilt (Jan 9, 2008)

Ilikeshinythings said:


> That does look like a pretty nice light from smartfire (ultrafire?). I have an ultrafire R1 rebel light and it is well built, bright as hell and pretty handy.


Actually, the Smartfire clone light has some issues - see my individual review of it here:

SmartFire V-68C "Q5" MRV-clone 

I'm currently working on the RaidFire Spear review, and will update this review with the runtimes of both once I'm done.


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## Stereodude (Jan 9, 2008)

Ilikeshinythings said:


> That does look like a pretty nice light from smartfire (ultrafire?). I have an ultrafire R1 rebel light and it is well built, bright as hell and pretty handy.


It doesn't appear to be any brighter than the first gen MRV in terms of output, but it does have a larger hotspot, and a slightly less ringy beam per one review. link 

Selfbuilt's review show higher output than the MRV, but the light has all sorts of issues. link


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