# Best place to buy 5.11 pants?



## KDOG3 (Mar 10, 2005)

Going to pick a pair of either the Khaki or Black pants. (new design). Does anyone know of a good vendor? Looking for best price...

ALso I will be paying by Paypal...


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## KDOG3 (Mar 10, 2005)

So far, I've found Botach Tactical does Paypal and even has free shipping, anyone else?


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## Malpaso (Mar 10, 2005)

Do a search for threads on this site for "Botaxx" before you buy there. Here is where I get my 5.11 gear.


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## KDOG3 (Mar 10, 2005)

Do they take Paypal?


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## Steve C (Mar 10, 2005)

I've been wearing these since 1993. I just bought my last pair.

They have steadily been cheapened over the years; as in made from less-durable material. One of the original pair I bought in '93, that have been worn and washed a zillion times, are still "thicker" (more substance to the material) than this new pair; which are about the thickness of a bed sheet. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/jpshakehead.gif

The Trail Hiker(?) pants from Cabela's are a good, quality replacement. Sorry, Royal Robbins; you got too interested in your bottom line.


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## KDOG3 (Mar 10, 2005)

I can't say I agree with you. I have the charcoal ones already that I just bought last summer and they are great. I love 'em. But I will take a look at the Trail hikers from Cabelas...


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## KDOG3 (Mar 10, 2005)

Ok, I looked at the Trailhikers from Cabelas' - not bad. But they don't take PayPal. Too bad. We'll see...

Are you sure you didn't end up with the other pants they make that are thinner? The ones I have are bullet proof. I just can't agree with your assessment.


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## mokona2 (Mar 10, 2005)

May be a bit OT, but how are the shoes? I just picked up a pair of the 5.11 ATAC shoes. For me, they're pretty comfortable, but I will have to wear them for a few weeks to really break them in. Hopefully they won't fall apart.


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## Steve C (Mar 11, 2005)

KDOG3, they recently switched producers; again. These new paper-thin ones were made in Viet Nam. 

I have a dozen pair; the labels are faded out on the first ones, and the second "batch" were made in Malaysia, according to the label. The first ones (purchased at the FBI Academy in 1993) are quality, heavy canvas-like material. The second set, purchased direct from Royal Robbins in 1999 (the Malaysia-made ones), are not as heavy but still good, thick, quality fabric. This new, thin stuff feels like muslin; exactly like a bed sheet.

Check out a new pair and tell me what you think then... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/popcorn.gif

And, BTW, all are most definitely the 5.11 version. Their other pants are made for yuppies and bird-watchers.


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## KDOG3 (Mar 11, 2005)

I will return with a full report!!! If I get them and they are indeed crap, I will go on a campaign to get them to return them to the better material. I'll try to get as many of you to help me as possible.


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## Steve C (Mar 11, 2005)

<<...go on a campaign...>>

Rotsa ruck. They don't give a squat. Royal Robbins used to sell direct to law enforcement individuals at a slight discount. It wasn't much, but it saved you a few bucks on each pair. When Mary Ann Salsa was running that show, you couldn't ask for better customer service. 

She's no longer with the firm; neither is the direct sales program. And those losses coincided, near as I can tell, with the rapid cheapening of the product. IMO, of course.

Anyway, when I realized just HOW thin these pants were, I tried to return them. No dice. The store tried to get a RMA from Royal Robbins. Since there was no "obvious defect" (their term), they felt no obligation to refund my money. I brought one of my older, well-worn pair to show the store owner. He agreed there was a drastic difference in the quality of the material, but wasn't moved enough to keep a happy customer. He kept that sale, but lost many others, as I no longer have use for his wares. No problem; plenty of other vendors around.

In fact, we'll be getting a Cabela's store here late this year. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/happy14.gif

Anyway, I'll be interested to hear the results of your research... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif


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## KDOG3 (Mar 11, 2005)

Hmmm, now you got me thinking... Are there any other good "tactical" brands of clothing you can think of?


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## Malpaso (Mar 11, 2005)

[ QUOTE ]
*KDOG3 said:*
Hmmm, now you got me thinking... Are there any other good "tactical" brands of clothing you can think of? 

[/ QUOTE ]

Propper


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## Steve C (Mar 12, 2005)

Only those hiker pants from Cabela's. A pal ordered a pair, and they are very nice. My only complaint (keeping in mind I haven't worn a pair yet) is the lack of an outer thigh cargo pocket. These pants have seven pockets, with (Hurrah!) button closures on the hip pockets. Those slash rear pockets on the 5.11s were always pretty much useless, as far as I'm concerned. Sticking a flashlight in there while working on the range is about the only time I ever used them.

I'm sure there are other brands out there. I suppose it depends upon your definition of the word tactical.


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## Lars (Mar 12, 2005)

The RR website still lists the pants as having 8.5.oz cotton canvas although there is now a lighter weight (still 5.11 tactical pants) nylon canvas,perhaps you got ahold of that version? If they still specify 8.5 oz cotton canvas it would be easy ehough to demonstrate if that were not the case.


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## MikeF (Mar 12, 2005)

I swear by the Cabela's Trailhikers. Link I have several pairs of RR 5.11 pants that I bought about a year and a half ago, and every pair has multiple places where the fabric has worn completely through. No More RR for me!
I bought several pairs of the "regular" Trailhikers, and they are lasting much better than the RR 5.11 pants /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

I also got three pairs of the lined Trailhikers to wear this winter. They have been great! The fleece lined version are warmer for those really cold mornings, and the flannel lined versions are great when it is just in the 30's. The downside to the lined pants, is they are out of a lot of sizes, now that we are going into spring. They must order a lot in the summer to cover winter demand, and now they are sold out of some sizes.

The trailhikers are now available in an even heavier fabric, the "Nailhead" fabric. These will be even more durable than th original Trailhikers, and will absolutely blow away the current RR 5.11 pants.

The main differences beside the difference in quality of fabric are in the rear pockets. I did a review here, and this quote is from that review. "The rear pockets on the Trailhikers are more conventional, a patch pocket with a flap sealed with velcro with no utility strap. Also, on the Trailhikers, the "cell phone" pocket is shorter in length than on the 5.11 pants, and the flap will not velcro closed with the L-4, but it will with the Li-On Heart. The Fabric on the seat of the 5.11 is double layered, so if that is a high wear area on your current pants, then the RR pants might be better here, although I wear out knees before seats on my pants. The Trailhikers are also available lined in fleece or flannel."


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## KDOG3 (Mar 12, 2005)

Not to knock Trailhikers, but from what I see and read, the "Cell phone/knife pocket is too small and on the right side when it should be on the left. I am looking at the Propper BDU pants and thinking about getting a pair of those in Khaki. I can get the 5.11s' with free shipping ( gonna try one of their compression T's too ) so it would be around the same price as buying the others with the shipping. Also, if they are made the same way as my current pair, then they will be great for me... stay tuned! It will be about a week and a half before I get my grubby hands on 'em, so I'll just start a new "review" thread when they arrive.


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## Steve C (Mar 12, 2005)

[ QUOTE ]
*Lars said:*
The RR website still lists the pants as having 8.5.oz cotton canvas although there is now a lighter weight (still 5.11 tactical pants) nylon canvas,perhaps you got ahold of that version? If they still specify 8.5 oz cotton canvas it would be easy ehough to demonstrate if that were not the case. 

[/ QUOTE ]


Well, I can tell you beyond any doubt that this new pair I purchased a month ago is NOWHERE near 8.5 oz weight material; and there ain't a shred of canvas in it, either.

KDOG3, I hate to break it to you, but the 5.11 pants have the cell phone/knife pocket on the right front thigh. I understand the new nylon version has it on the left, but remember that the 5.11 was basically drawn up to an FBI spec; and that's all I'll say about that... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon15.gif

BTW, Lars; the label says "100% cotton".

Thanks for the update, Mike. I'll be trying some of these if they are still in the inventory when that new store opens here. I simply don't need any pants right now, or I'd order some.


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## Lars (Mar 12, 2005)

I was actually going to get my first pair but now will reconsider. Thanks for bringing this to our attention Steve.BTW anybody know a dealer who has some older stock?


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## StuGatz (Mar 13, 2005)

This may be a bit late. However, Brigade Quartermaster just came out with a catalog dedicated to the 5.11 line. Possible online contact via actiongear.com

All the best,

Stuart


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## The-David (Mar 13, 2005)

HUMMMM We Just went with 5.11 at worck, havent goten mine yet so cant tell you how there going to worck out. I was thinking about getting a 5.11 Tactical Vest in black tonight. Probley not going to do it after reading what everyone has to say.


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## KDOG3 (Mar 13, 2005)

Steve, they just switched to the left THIS year. There are alot of the older style still floating around. The NEW 8.5oz ones do indeed have the pocket on the left. I guess we'll find out, huh?


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## KDOG3 (Mar 13, 2005)

Steve check out the 5.11 website they specifically state that their is 2 versions = an 8.5oz 100% cotton and a 7.4oz nylon version - and both have the pocket on the left.

5.11 pant 

I am considering the Propper khaki "battle rip" BDU pants. I like the fact they are made in the USA. Let me research a little more..

UPDATE: Tomorrow I will call 5.11 directly and get the lowdown. Maybe I should let it "slip" that some people are quite dissatisfied with their products...


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## Steve C (Mar 13, 2005)

I didn't doubt you, KDOG3. Guess the pair I bought last month has been in a warehouse somewhere; I know the local vendor did not have my short inseam in stock and had to order them.

As for Royal Robbins knowing about dissatisfied customers, I know I'm not the only one who has complained about the thin new material. Again, they don't care. They have so many people brainwashed into thinking they're the best, they sell every pair they produce. I know I used to feel this way; until I noticed the definite difference in these new pants. Having bought the same item at different intervals, years apart, has allowed me to see how Royal Robbins has cut back on the material. The first two batches of material is definitely rough texture canvas "duck", although the second pairs bought in 1999 are definitely less "thick" than the ones bought in 1993. But the ones I bought last month are simply NOT the same stuff. It is thin, it is soft and smooth, and there's no way in hell it is going to be as durable.

I'd also wager that many, if not most, folks who wear these have them issued to them. These guys are not going to complain to the company; they'll just wear the pants until they need replacing, and get another pair for free.

Those of us paying fifty bones a pair tend to be a bit less forgiving. But I'm beginning to sound like a broken record, so I'll shut up. Good luck with your research.

Me, I'm waiting for that Cabela's to be built and opened up... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif


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## KDOG3 (Mar 14, 2005)

Hmmm, now everyone has got me thinking. The Propper Khaki battle-rip BDU pants are starting to sound better and better.... I still plan on calling them today...


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## KDOG3 (Mar 15, 2005)

I think I have Dan Costas' attention now in this thread. Please make suggestions...


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## LA_Police_Gear (Mar 16, 2005)

Dear CPF readers,

Re PayPal payments: We will take PayPal if you call first and we know to look for your order. We have a "government contract" option under payment types. You can use this at check-out so no credit card info is needed. You can then send us PayPal (must be a confirmed address). Call first so we know to look for the order.

re 5.11: I have A LOT of security professionals (customers)using the current version of 5.11 pants in some pretty nasty enviroments. Not one of these customers have complained about the pants not holding up. I would assume they are "putting the pants to the test" by loading them down with M-16 magaizines, radios, and etc etc etc. These guys are the true "operators" in every sense of the word. They love the current 5.11 line.

I would also personally recommend you guys try the new 5.11 nylon pants. Thats all I wear to work now...every day... I even wear them to business meetings. They feel more comfortable to me. I also really like the new UnderGear and Ripstop shirts.

I just thought I would throw in my two cents as I personally like the product. When I was a SWAT team officer I would wear the 5.11 pants because they allowed me to move more easily in and out of various shooting positions. The material never failed me.

Sean
LA Police Gear Inc
www.LAPoliceGear.com

ps, <here comes the plug> we also offer free shipping and free other stuff (items vary) at our site.


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## phantomspook (Mar 19, 2005)

[ QUOTE ]
*KDOG3 said:*
So far, I've found Botach Tactical does Paypal and even has free shipping, anyone else? 

[/ QUOTE ]

say no to botach! BOCRAP --- BULLCRAP...THAT'S WHAT THEY ARE. BAD BAD EXPERIENCE.


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## alanhuth (Mar 23, 2005)

I ordered some stuff from copsplus.com. I would not recommend it because they don't allow you to call in to find out availability and it's not displayed on the website. YOu can only find out if something is in stock AFTER you place your order. They seem to have good prices, however. I ordered two items; one was in stock and I received it quickly. The other is backordered (I found out after ordering despite trying to ascertain ahead of time - including sending an email asking about availability). I would not order anything from anybody that does not tell you up front whether it's in stock.


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## KDOG3 (Mar 23, 2005)

Yes, I don't think I will be ordering from Botach anymore unless I just can't find the item anywhere else. The morons sent me the wrong style pants (old cell pocket design). I will look into LA Police Gear. I just submitted the paperwork to get Visa debit card so I may be placing an order with LA here soon!!


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## phantomspook (Mar 23, 2005)

Bocrap!!

www.lapolicegear.com is really good, I just bought from them, although since they're in CA. There is sales tax, but they make up for it with freeshipping and free kneepads and other goodies.

I just placed a 2nd order with them


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## LA_Police_Gear (Mar 24, 2005)

FYI about the "new Style" vs "Old Style" pants. The main thing is that the "ammo" pocket (for lack of a better term)was moved from right leg to left leg. We get them both ways from 5.11.

If you must have it on a certain side you can call us and we can hand search the shelf to see if we have what you need.

Also, it is always a good idea to call a web site/catalog business before you buy to see if they have the item you want. Our goal is to keep all 5.11, Under Armour, and Surefire items in stock at all times. That can be a hard thing to do at times. We really prefer people to place their orders on the web site, but we welcome calls to verify if an item is in stock for sure.

FYI, we have hired another customer service person to answer phones. In the past we would be too busy to catch every call at times.

Sean
LA Police Gear Inc.
www.LAPoliceGear.com


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## Banshee (Mar 24, 2005)

Can't do Botach..too risky!
Lightfighter took FOREVER to ship items that were allegedly in stock...

Let's see if LAPG can do it right...order placed at noontime
for pants, shorts and promo items!


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## phantomspook (Mar 24, 2005)

LAPG (La Police Gear) is really good. I inquired about buying a bunch of pants and shirts. Christy answered all my questions including items in stock. Items were shipped the same day, They only charge your credit card for what's in stock and ships. They're very pleasant to deal with. 

My order should arrive today, It was ordered and shipped on Tuesday, This is my 2nd order too. There will be a third order after I get back from my trip. On my 2nd order they only charged me for what's shipped and instock, sage shirt is out of stock in Large 

No I don't work for them but they are a really great experience to buy from.


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## phantomspook (Mar 24, 2005)

I am very pleased with my transaction/purchases from LA Police Gear, I am buying about $2000 worth of 511 stuff in 4 purchases March - April.

Lightfighter answered my email regarding stock one whole week (7 days) later, Brad Nelson at Lightfighter.NET needs to get his crap together.

Botac...I mean bocrap...bullcrap is way too risky....I placed an order for the goods from them and it was pulling teeth to get money back because items were not in stock. Awful!


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## KDOG3 (Mar 24, 2005)

Cool cheers about LAPG. I just got paid today so I may be placing an order soon. I just GOTTA get me a desert tan G2. Also some batteries, a spare p91, a lanyard, 5.11 tactical shirt, 5.11 loosegear shirt - it never ends!! I wonder how the free shipping would work out with all that though.


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## Banshee (Mar 24, 2005)

UPS tracking number was sent 5 1/2 hours after I placed my order.Same day free shiping of all items I ordered. So far so good!


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## LA_Police_Gear (Mar 27, 2005)

Thanks for all the positive remarks.

We really do try to keep our customers in the loop. 

I remember when I was a cop buying gear online certain web sites (some mentioned in this thread) took weeks to ship my orders. From one site in particular I ordered 6 times. only 3 of the orders ever arrived and of the 3 only one was the correct item.

I remember what used to **** me off as a customer and we try to avoid doing those things. We do however drop the ball now and then just like all the other companies. We really try hard not to, but sometimes stuff happens.

Sean
LA Police Gear Inc
www.LAPoliceGear.com


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## KevinL (Mar 27, 2005)

Hi Sean,

Sent you a PM about ordering and Paypal. Did you get it? 

Rest,

Sorry to hijack the thread.. was hoping to pick up some stuff from LAPG too /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif


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## LA_Police_Gear (Mar 29, 2005)

Sorry I did not. Please e-mail me at [email protected]


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## Banshee (Mar 30, 2005)

LAPG gets four stars from me on this transaction. Shipped quickly across the US from CA to MA. Everything was in stock and shipped together. Proper sizes were all sent as well as all the promo 5.11 goods that were advertised (and then some /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif -thanks Sean!) Oh and free shipping to boot!

As for 5.11 (and not LAPG)
I received all "old style" with the mag/cellphone pocket still on the right thigh..but the pants were definately NOT the same canvassy material my older 5.11 pants are made of. These are a softer more "Docker" like material. Maybe they are just retextured for better "ironablility" when not in the field though as stated in 5.11's Dan Costa'a email posted elsewhere on these boards
We'll see if they stand up to the same (ab)use as the "old-school" versions. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif


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## alanhuth (Mar 31, 2005)

I can't comment on old vs new 5.11, but I can make a few observations on new 5.11 pants compared to Cabellas Trailhikers, both of which I purchased within the past month.

The 5.11 material is better, I think. It is thicker but has a tighter weave (more threads per inch). I don't know what the original fabric was like, but this stuff feels pretty damn rugged to me. Advantage 5.11.

The 5.11 rear pockets are slash (no flaps but velcro inside) and much deeper than the Cabelas, which are regular sized with velcro flaps. No advantage - style preference. I prefer the 5.11 size over the possibly better pickpocket protection of the Cabelas.

The 5.11s have a double layer on the seat and knees while the Cabelas are double on the knees only. The 5.11 allow the insertion of knee pads but the Cabelas are sewn all around. Advantage 5.11.

The Cabelas have a solid metal button on the front while the 5.11 have a snap backed up by a plastic button which doesn't seem to be attached too well. Big advantage Cabelas on that one. 

The Cabelas cargo pockets are pleated down the middle in front, as are the 5.11s, but they also are bigger because they have a pleat or bellows which goes around the bottom and sides allowing for more room. The 5.11's are sewn flat around the sides and bottom. Advantage Cabelas. 

The 5.11s have a web "utility strap" crossing above the left rear pocket. I have no idea what to do with that strap - maybe hang some laundry or something. I suppose cops have a good use for it, but to me it seems kind of goofy.

Overall, I think I like the 5.11s slightly better, but I sure don't like the snap/button fastener in front.


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## Steve C (Apr 6, 2005)

Alan,

That "utility strap" was supposedly designed to hold a key ring cleverly disguised as a carabiner... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thinking.gif
The idea being, I was told, that one could quickly snap on or off the 'biner. I asked the industry person who was telling me this, under just what conditions did one need to quick-draw his keys???? I got a sour look, and no more information. Oh, well...

I'm with you; its a rather bizarre accoutrement that I have yet to employ in 12 years of wearing these pants.

Regarding the material thickness, a buddy back east has told me that the several new pair he was just issued are adequately thick; nothing like the paper-thin two new pair I have here. And his have a "Made in VietNam" label.

So perhaps I just got a batch that slipped through QC. I hope so. When it comes time to buy some new ones, I'll have a look. I really like the design and fit of the 5.11s, but this thin material was simply unsat.


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## KDOG3 (Apr 6, 2005)

The utility strap looks like a perfect place to clip your radios, phones, knives, etc. I get paid tommorrow and may get myself another pair. Haven't decided what color yet, probably the black.


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## phantomspook (Apr 6, 2005)

PM sent to Sean at LAPG regarding concern. Sean please check PM.


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## Banshee (May 4, 2005)

BTTT with a question for Sean...

How is the sizing on the 5.11 Polo's? I've read that they run small in order to be worn under body armor..I think I've also seen they run a bit large...

So what's the deal? Inquiring minds want to know...

Another order pending your answer

Thanks
Dave


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## Luxman (Jun 22, 2005)

Hi all,
Hope its ok to bring up this old thread...
I have had a few pairs of Cabela's Trailhikers pants and like them very much, but one thing that really bothers me is the pockets do not seem very wear resistant.
I started carrying a Benchmade 705 (3") in the knife pocket and the pocket wore through toward the outside within 3 months! Also I am not hard on my pants. I may be carrying an expensive knife or light and to me its more important I don't loose whatever I am carrying than the regular wear characteristics. Cabela's does have excellent service and exchanged the pants for a new pair - but I don't feel confident in carrying gear in their pockets.
Thought you guys might want to know...
I will be trying the 5.11 pants soon.


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## Mike Painter (Jun 24, 2005)

[ QUOTE ]
*Malpaso said:*
[ QUOTE ]
*KDOG3 said:*
Hmmm, now you got me thinking... Are there any other good "tactical" brands of clothing you can think of? 

[/ QUOTE ]

Propper 

[/ QUOTE ]

I have an email in to them now. I have two pair of cotton BDUs that I bought in November or December of last year. I have followed thier washing instructions to the letter and I have old T-shirts that are still in veery good condition so I don't see a problem with the water or detergant.
I carry a very light load in both thigh pockets.
One pair has a hole at the top rear of both thigh pockets. The other pair looks worn there and I'm sure holes will develop.


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## Mike Painter (Jun 29, 2005)

I got a reply from Propper:
Yes, a cotton/poly blend is a much stronger fabric than 100% cotton. In fact we encourage law enforcement agencies, EMT's, and anyone else in the public safety community to stay away from 100% cotton. Cotton simply cannot withstand the stress that public safety officials put on their trousers. A cotton/poly blend is much better suited for your needs. We also have a great EMT trouser in Dark Navy and Black in a 65%Poly 35%Cotton twill with a Teflon coating that may be exactly what you are looking for. Thank you and have a great day.

Meanwhile the hole in one pair of my pants is about the size of a quarter.

These pants did *not* get any more wear and tear than my cheap Wal-mart cotton shorts.


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## KDOG3 (Jun 29, 2005)

Wow, this old thread has returned! Well, my 5.11 pants are still going strong. I just wish they'd get rid of the elastic waistband, yeeech.


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