# How Effective Are Flashlights In Keeping Dogs At Bay



## JAS (Dec 10, 2009)

I did a search prior to posting this, but I didn't find much. Also, I hope this is the correct sub-forum for this topic. I am a deputy sheriff and I did a forcible eviction this morning. As we were preparing to make forced entry this morning, I realized that Cujo had been left behind in the residence and it seemed as if he was less than thrilled about our presence. We weighed our options and had chemical irritant, animal control pole, Taser X-26, and Glock Model 22 ready to go. I love dogs and did not want to shoot this dog unless it was absolutely necessary. On the other hand, the last time I had an issue with a dog at work I was bitten on the hand and "Fluffy" passed away very suddenly and unexpectedly of lead poisoning! Anyway, what we ended up doing was spraying chemical irritant directly into Cujo's nose while I shined my Streamlight Stinger LED directly into his eyes. We were able to back him into a bedroom and contain him until his owner could get him.

I am just wondering what experiences people here have had specifically with dogs and their flashlights. Have you found that dogs generally retreat if a flashlight is shined directly into their eyes or have you had the opposite happen? I suspect ambient light conditions may have a big impact on the effectiveness of this. Also, I seem to recall in training several years back that with humans at least 100 lumens is necessary to disorient. For as many years as I have been in law enforcement, I have never had any dog specific training. Any knowledge that I have regarding dogs is anecdotal, at best. Also, for all the talk in some of our sub-forums here regarding the strobe mode, I did not use the strobe mode. In retrospect, I wonder what difference, if any, the strobe may have had on Cujo. We did have a good outcome, since no firearms were discharged and I think the effect of the chemical irritant on the dog is temporary. On the other hand, the outcome could have been very different. Lets hear your experiences with dogs and lights.


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## sed6 (Dec 11, 2009)

I too like dogs. Glad you didn't have to shoot Cujo, but .40 would have done the trick. Lemme ask, why not taser it? Bet it works just as well on dogs as humans and should prove less than lethal. 

As to your question, my dog seems completely unaffected by my flashlights. I let him out 2-3 times a night in our unfenced backyard and spotlight him with my P3D or JET-III Pro to make sure he doesn't wander off. While I don't make a point to purposely shine it in his eyes he often looks right into the light and often turns and walks right toward it. Quite honestly each time I wonder why he doesn't seem to be bothered by them. On full blast both are uncomfortably bright when shined in my eyes.

So my experience says no, a flashlight is no better deterent to a dog attack than harsh words would be.


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## computernut (Dec 11, 2009)

I've had experience with strange dogs at the local off-leash dog park at night. I find dogs act more agressive when approaching when I have the light on and pointed at them. I think they can't see me as well so they bark and growl more than when I turn the light off or point it away. I know my own dog doesn't care about my bright lights.


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## Benson (Dec 11, 2009)

I have, on a couple occasions, used lights against dogs chasing me while cycling. In both cases, it was getting duskish, the other almost completely dark, so the lights were likely more effective than they would otherwise be. However, both high and strobe (one in each incident) seem to work fine for knocking a dog off-balance momentarily -- all I needed. Unfortunately, I can't really comment on *keeping* dogs at bay -- but I'd expect that a dog will be initially startled and blinded, but fairly soon adapt and work around it just like a person, so I wouldn't count on anything more than "can't see anything behind the light" effect.


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## shark_za (Dec 11, 2009)

sed6 said:


> Lemme ask, why not taser it? Bet it works just as well on dogs as humans and should prove less than lethal.




I would guess its because of the crazy cost of the taser cartridges.


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## SuperLightMan (Dec 11, 2009)

shark_za said:


> I would guess its because of the crazy cost of the taser cartridges.


Crazy cost of taser catridge vs extremely crazy cost of medical bill AND time off from work. hmmmm


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## Larry237 (Dec 11, 2009)

During night time walks, I have been approached several times over the years by dogs that looked hostile and threatening. Bright lights have seemed to be unpleasant to them and they backed off. I wonder if taking a positive stance and looking at them as you use the lights doesn't also have a part in discouraging them. I can't say that lights consistantly repel hostile animals (and people), but my experience in 25 years as a cop and lots of time in the outdoors suggests that bright lights are sometimes effective. One of the most useful effects of non-lethal weapons (and possibly lights) is changing the train of thought of an attacker. There is also the simple fact that vision is impaired when a bright light shines into a night adapted eye. Bright lights may be worth a try before increasing the level of force. I haven't used the strobe function as a deterrent, so far, but I will give that a try if the right threat occurs.


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## novice (Dec 11, 2009)

I was walking my dog awhile ago (on a leash) on a neighborhood loop. My dog can be semi-aggressive towards other dogs; she doesn't bite or nip, but she will temporarily get in another dog's face when she has the opportunity, so I'm sure she attracts the same kind of energy even when she is on a leash. Anyway, a pit bull came running out of it's yard across the street, and came running up to my dog. It didn't bite (thank god), but it was 'aggressively curious', and in my dog's face, and my dog's attitude wasn't helping. I had my Fenix P2D out and on 'turbo' (supposedly 180 lumens) and I was shining it directly in the dog's eyes at point-blank range, and shouting "No! No! No!" in (my) command voice, and nothing really seemed to make that much difference. I contemplated kicking the dog away (out of fear for my dog), but neither the other dog, nor mine, was biting, and not only did I not want to hurt another dog, but I was afraid that such an action might 'escalate' the situation for the other dog. Nothing bad happened, fortunately. I continued walking, pulling my dog along, and 'eventually' the other dog lost interest, but I was a little dismayed that the entire concept of the 'blinding tactical beam' was entirely ineffective that evening.


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## hoongern (Dec 11, 2009)

I can say that all the animals I light up (a couple of dogs around the field I walk every night, a couple of cats, etc.) completely ignore a bright light. Sometimes they will just blink for a split second and maybe look away a little bit, but that's about it. But then, in an urban setting, they are very used to being lit up all the time by car headlights, so that may have something to do with it - having been conditioned.


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## Locoboy5150 (Dec 11, 2009)

I went on a night time walk with my girlfriend in the park down the street from her place about a month ago. It was about 8:00 PM and aside from the pathway lights in the park, very dark. It was the perfect place to test out my Fenix TK40.

On our walk to the park we passed by the backyard of a home that was dominated by Cujo. Luckily there was a tall metal fence separating us, otherwise we would have been the latest flavor of Purina Dog Chow that evening. My girlfriend knew about the vicious dog so we walked on the opposite side of the street (2 lanes wide) from that yard.

As Cujo moved in for the kill, but just stopped short of the fence, I kicked my TK40 into turbo and shined all 630 lumens straight at him. He didn't budge. I then turned on the strobe mode. Once again he didn't budge, but he kept barking like crazy. I cycled my TK40 through all the different light output modes and flash modes...all resulted in no change from the dog.

Based on my experience that night if you want to stun a vicious dog, you need something else besides a bright flashlight.


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## biggerdog (Dec 11, 2009)

I wonder if the spectral sensitivity curve of canine (and feline) eyes is different from that of humans.


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## Jash (Dec 11, 2009)

Just went into the bathroom and put my light on strobe. Shines at about 170-180 lumens and I could hardly stand up. Put in on straight bright and shone it into my eyes and after about two seconds I could see my own reflection in the mirror despite the hotspot being right in my eyes. When in strobe mode it almost gave me a head-ache as my eyes were trying to handle the bright/dark, bright/dark, bright/dark. I now know what I'll use if anyone tries to break in. Don't see a dog being able to handle strobe better than a human.


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## amaretto (Dec 11, 2009)

Do not be convinced in any flashlight repelling dogs. Once i was i a situation when i had to fire up my Polarion PH50 (5000 lm) against a dog - i feel sorry about the dog until now because i like dogs. The only effect was that he stopped running against us so that we could pass. But the dog was not hiding or anything else but was still looking in our direction. If i shone this light to a human it would had been more effective.

I dont know if very right flashlights could do any damage to dogs eyes. But to prevent it i would use chemicals as pepper spray in future if possible.


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## Monocrom (Dec 11, 2009)

Locoboy5150 said:


> I went on a night time walk with my girlfriend in the park down the street from her place about a month ago. It was about 8:00 PM and aside from the pathway lights in the park, very dark. It was the perfect place to test out my Fenix TK40.
> 
> On our walk to the park we passed by the backyard of a home that was dominated by Cujo. Luckily there was a tall metal fence separating us, otherwise we would have been the latest flavor of Purina Dog Chow that evening. My girlfriend knew about the vicious dog so we walked on the opposite side of the street (2 lanes wide) from that yard.
> 
> ...


 
I think you would have eventually stunned him with your TK40 ... By chucking it at his head. :lolsign:

I'm sorry. Couldn't resist. In all seriousness, pepperspray is a better option. A dog's nose is far more sensative to chemical irritants than that of a person's.


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## LightCannon (Dec 11, 2009)

Locoboy5150 said:


> I went on a night time walk with my girlfriend in the park down the street from her place about a month ago. It was about 8:00 PM and aside from the pathway lights in the park, very dark. It was the perfect place to test out my Fenix TK40.
> 
> On our walk to the park we passed by the backyard of a home that was dominated by Cujo. Luckily there was a tall metal fence separating us, otherwise we would have been the latest flavor of Purina Dog Chow that evening. My girlfriend knew about the vicious dog so we walked on the opposite side of the street (2 lanes wide) from that yard.
> 
> ...


Maybe an ROP or Mag85 would stop it...worst case scenario, just use it like a club?


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## Andy80F (Dec 11, 2009)

Big torches can be used as clubs, little ones get stuck in there throats. 

I know my dog will run in the flood of light at night but neither she or any other dog encountered seems threatened by light and unless its very dark the effect on people is pretty limited as well. I don't really view flashlights as "defensive" weapons other than for there ability to be used as a club. 

Andy


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## leukos (Dec 11, 2009)

I'll echo what most others are saying here, but bright lights do not seem to deter determined dogs. My guess is dogs don't rely on their sight as much as humans, perhaps they could still attack us just with their sense of smell? In an animal attack, objects that can serve as a club or a spear will be more effective than a bright light in my opinion.


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## RobertM (Dec 11, 2009)

Would an incandescent have a great effect on a dog than an LED due to its much broader spectrum of output?


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## LightCannon (Dec 11, 2009)

RobertM said:


> Would an incandescent have a great effect on a dog than an LED due to its much broader spectrum of output?


That's a good question...someone want to try it?


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## ab1ht (Dec 11, 2009)

biggerdog said:


> I wonder if the spectral sensitivity curve of canine (and feline) eyes is different from that of humans.



I was thinking the same thing. This information might be helpful. Will have to look into that...



leukos said:


> I'll echo what most others are saying here, but bright lights do not seem to deter *determined *dogs....



I think that's the key. My dog doesn't particularly like having a light shined in his eyes, but it's certainly something he can handle.


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## curtispdx (Dec 11, 2009)

I've had to pepper quite a few dogs in the past seventeen years and seems to work well. I'd stick with that. 

I have co-workers that have Tasered dogs and that works well too if you're able to get both probes to make contact. (Hint: tilt the Taser sideways.)

Less-lethal (beanbag) rounds will also do the trick.

Flashlight? No way.


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## ab1ht (Dec 11, 2009)

Just as an interesting (at least to me) follow up:

Dogs are not color blind. Their eyes are dichromatic (whereas humans are trichromatic). Color response in dogs peaks at the yellow-green and blue-violet wavelengths.

That said, their cones are not predominantly at the center of their retinas, so the colors that dogs do see are "washed". So a tight spectrum type defense wouldn't really do the trick.

Since their eyes mostly have rods, something that exploited this fact would be useful.


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## cfromc (Dec 11, 2009)

In my experience the bright light and the strobe have almost zero effect except that after a while the dog will attempt to move out of the light. I had an experience with a raccoon and the bright light really did nothing. I was trying to get the raccoon out of my attic. After about 45 minutes of the light it just seemed to **** the raccoon off but that may have just been my presence in his "area" for so long.


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## wpowell (Dec 11, 2009)

FYI

Test subjects
1 male 120# german shepherd dog approx 7 yrs old
1 female 90# german shepherd dog approx 4 yrs old


1 surefire M6 [MN20, surefire CR123s]
1 surefire E2d [Malkoff 60 bulb]

environ
very very dark yard


results
-------------m6------------e2d----------
male GSD no effect no effect
female GSD wanted to play wanted to play
-----------------------------------------

btw, the female GSD wants to play when she is AWAKE.
[she might want to play when asleep, but I can't really tell]


I would NOT want to have to stop either dog with a light. A tennis ball or a steak would work a lot better.


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## a99raptors (Dec 11, 2009)

Dogs are our friends...... )


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## ab1ht (Dec 11, 2009)

wpowell said:


> A tennis ball or a steak would work a lot better.



Hey, it worked for the guy in "Up".


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## LightCannon (Dec 11, 2009)

curtispdx said:


> I've had to pepper quite a few dogs in the past seventeen years and seems to work well. I'd stick with that.



I'd add a little salt myself, but to each their own... 

But, in all seriousness...Up was a great movie. And a tennis ball really DOES do the trick better than a flashlight (it does for my dog, at least.)


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## BurkStar (Dec 11, 2009)

From 9 years of working security in the desert...Lights do not do more than slightly irritate the following: 

1. Bobcat
2. Javalina
3. Coyote
4. Deer

And actually attracted a mountain lion...So I would not count on it doing a thing to a dog. Unless of course there's a mountain lion in the neighborhood.


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## jahxman (Dec 11, 2009)

In my experience whether a flashlight is of any use at all in slowing down or stopping a dog depends a lot on the dog's attitude at the moment.

With my own dog, as others have reported, she seems entirely unaffected by bright lights shined in her eyes and will trot right up to me with a ROP shining full in her face, wagging her tail. Same for high powered LEDs. Shine the 35W HID in her eyes and she just glances away, but keeps going wherever she was going. She depends more on her other senses than sight, which I think is a factor here - as humans we are much more dependent on sight for situational awareness than dogs.

With a strange dog, if it is feeling insecure about me being there, a light will often make it back down, because it is a strange and possibly agressive act by a strange human. If, however, the strange dog is not feeling insecure, but rather actively agressive, a light will do almost nothing to deter it.

I think the best bet is an appropriate animal control spray, before the last resort of the firearm. I would be worried about using a taser on a dog as I haven't read anything about the effects, but dogs are generally much smaller than humans, and it might not be much different than shooting it.


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## Monocrom (Dec 11, 2009)

wpowell said:


> 1 female 90# german shepherd dog approx 4 yrs old
> 
> results
> -------------m6------------e2d----------
> ...


 


That's great! She still thinks like a puppy!

I can just picture you standing there, telling her to run away from the beam. Run away. And she treats it like a new toy, instead. That's freaking great! :twothumbs


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## kelmo (Dec 11, 2009)

JAS you got lucky. You were in the dog's home with the owner present. He viewed you as a threat. I do not think a flashlight would keep an angry, scared, and protective (owner present) dog at bay. You're lucky Cujo's siblings were not present. 

Have you asked the Animal Control folks for advice?


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## JAS (Dec 11, 2009)

The renter was not present when we made entry, but returned home after the dog was contained. 

The Community Service Officer from the city I was in assisted and he was the one that suggested chemical irritant vs. Taser. He said that in his experience the Taser may escalate the dogs behavior vs. chemical irritant. I don't think I pointed it out, but I lit up the dog as the chemical was sprayed. I am hoping that the light would at least make target acquisition more difficult for the dog, but there target acquisition might be based more on other senses than simply sight alone.


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## B0wz3r (Dec 11, 2009)

I haven't seen that a bright light or a strobing light will necessarily keep a dog at bay. It might make them hesitate for a moment, but it won't keep them off you after that. I think something like an airhorn or a bullhorn would be more effective.

Remember that dogs are pack animals, they respond to dominance regardless of whether they're in a pack or not. Making yourself big and intimidating, noisy and threatening to them, will usually at least make them hesitate and just outright back down. Some loud shouting and threatening moves, some attempted swings at them with a 6 or 8 cell Mag is usually be enough to make them at least hesitate, and often back down. You just have to show them that you're not afraid of them and that if they f**k with you, you'll kick their a**. 

Personal anecdote; I worked as a paperboy for 3 years delivering the SF Chronicle in the bay area... there was this one house on my route that had a extremely aggressive dog that the owners used to let out at night. I hated delivering their paper because their own Cujo was always out and about at 5 am while I was doing my deliveries. 

After about 6 mos of living in terror of that dog (I was 12 at the time), on the advice of my manager, I bought a $1.99 plastic squirt-gun (this was before the days of the super-soaker) and a bottle of household ammonia. Filled the gun with the ammonia and the next morning walked right up Cujo's driveway. As he started toward me a few shots of the ammonia in his face changed his tune from growling and barking to yelping and whimpering. After that all I had to do was pull out that neon green squirt gun so he could see it and he would leave me alone.


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## Dude Dudeson (Dec 11, 2009)

A bright beam of light against a human is only good for one thing - gaining an extra half second advantage. Maybe getting first punch instead of second.

That's never going to be of any help against a dog.


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## maskman (Dec 11, 2009)

That was an excellent survey question JAS with very interesting responses. This discussion alone justified my visit to CPF today.


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## Billy Ram (Dec 11, 2009)

I wouldn't want to shine my m*g458 or my FM09 directly in a animals eyes at close range. If a light will set paper on fire what will it do to the retna? On the other hand under the threat of a hostil person if I was sure my life was in danger I would try to momentary blind them but at the same time I would be drawing my 1911. 
Billy


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## william lafferty (Dec 11, 2009)

amaretto said:


> Do not be convinced in any flashlight repelling dogs. Once i was i a situation when i had to fire up my Polarion PH50 (5000 lm) against a dog - i feel sorry about the dog until now because i like dogs. The only effect was that he stopped running against us so that we could pass. But the dog was not hiding or anything else but was still looking in our direction. If i shone this light to a human it would had been more effective.
> 
> I dont know if very right flashlights could do any damage to dogs eyes. But to prevent it i would use chemicals as pepper spray in future if possible.



This story really interests me because I would think if anything could stop a dog it would be the PH50 or PH40. These are _really_ bright lights. My PH 40 easily lights a man sized object at 300 yards, and probably at 400 yards.

bill


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## C-Beam (Dec 11, 2009)

SuperLightMan said:


> Crazy cost of taser catridge vs extremely crazy cost of medical bill AND time off from work. hmmmm



The taser just works for a moment. Then you have an even more perturbed animal to deal with. It's a bad option.


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## JAS (Dec 12, 2009)

C-Beam said:


> The Taser just works for a moment. Then you have an even more perturbed animal to deal with. It's a bad option.



That is what we thought at the time. So after Cujo takes the 5 seconds ride on the "electric pony" we have a fairly narrow window of opportunity to put the animal control pole on him. I wonder how quickly dogs recover from the 5 second ride.


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## KenAnderson (Dec 12, 2009)

From my experience, the longer mag lights have been pretty effective at turning dogs away, not so much from shining though...


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## Stress_Test (Dec 12, 2009)

*FIRE EXTINGUISHER*

I kid you not. A month or two back I happened to be flipping through one of those police/SWAT magazines, and there was an article about dealing with aggressive dogs when making an entry. The writer said that in his experience, a blast to the face with a fire extinguisher never failed to make a dog turn tail and run.

Probably the loud noise and the sudden cloud of cold, smelly chemicals that does the trick. I don't know what type of extinguisher he was using, but I'd guess CO2 because there shouldn't be any harmful effects from that (long as you don't suffocate in it!)


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## sqchram (Dec 12, 2009)

Well I see the funny home videos all the time on tv of cats chasing flashlight beams around.


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## kts (Dec 12, 2009)

This dog dont like to get tazed ..I would rather have tazed the owner...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KWFBp34zS6E&feature=related


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## Outdoors Fanatic (Dec 12, 2009)

If you rely on a flashlight as a primary defense tool against an agressive animal -- wild or domestic-- you're instantly qualifying yourself for a nice Darwin Award.

A flashlight is there to help you placing a shot on the threat in low light conditions. Folks at SureFire envisioned that more than 20 years ago... Hint: "tactical flashlight" exists for a reason, take advantage of your tool, use it like it was meant to be used.

Be safe!


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## ltiu (Dec 13, 2009)

http://www.surefire.com/BigCATastropheAvoided

Works on cats.


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## Paul_in_Maryland (Dec 13, 2009)

B0wz3r said:


> Making yourself big and intimidating, noisy and threatening to them, will usually at least make them hesitate and just outright back down. Some loud shouting and threatening moves, some attempted swings at them with a 6 or 8 cell Mag is usually be enough to make them at least hesitate, and often back down. You just have to show them that you're not afraid of them and that if they f**k with you, you'll kick their a**.


In 1990, I was 33 years old and living in Atlanta. One afternoon, I was jogging through my neighborhood when a housewife opened her front door to let her two Rottweilers run out to her truck. When they saw me, they forgot the truck and came bounding after me.

For years, I had planned my response: I would turn the tables on the attacking dog, charging at him--or them--while flailing my arms and growling like a monster. Like a button that would turn me invisible, it would either work--or not.

It worked. The two surprised Rots turned around, whimpering, and ran back toward their house. Relieved, I dropped my guard and began walking. The dogs saw me acting passively and once again came after me. I simply repeated my monster act and they again back away. 

The next day, I went to a police supply store and bought a telescoping solid-steel baton. I felt much safer running with that baton.


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## Monocrom (Dec 13, 2009)

Paul_in_Maryland said:


> The next day, I went to a police supply store and bought a telescoping solid-steel baton. I felt much safer running with that baton.


 
Hope you pressed charges against that irresponsible dog-owner. Hate to imagine what would have happened if it was a child who was walking by that house. :shakehead


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## Paul_in_Maryland (Dec 14, 2009)

No, but I rebuked her when she came out to see what the commotion was. And I told her the next time it happens, I'd report her.

In the weeks that followed, I did have the opportunity to deploy (but never use) my steel baton to discourage other dogs. When I banged it on the asphalt, dogs seemed to get the message.

I would later give away the baton after an embarrassing incident when I entered an airport forgetting that I had the baton on my belt. That was back when you could go all the way to the gate to pick up your arriving relative.


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## DM51 (Dec 14, 2009)

A good thread, on a topic that has been raised before a few times but can stand repetition here. 

My own experience is that nervous (prey)animals will simply move away from a light; inquisitive animals will look into it for a little while and then look away; and aggressive or angry ones will either be completely unaffected or actually annoyed by it. Few animals seem startled or unable to cope with bright lights.

I'm glad there's no discussion here of using more radical or forceful means for incapacitating dogs or other animals, except in the context of LEOs who in the course of their duty have had no alternative but to use force. 

Let's keep it that way, in the context of the use of lights, and the discussion can continue.


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## Dude Dudeson (Dec 14, 2009)

I'd probably rather try offering the dog the light!

I've used this tactic with dogs before - not with a flashlight, but anything you've got on hand.

Just a "here ya go, here ya go" and drop something in front of them.

They react with "oooh, he's GIVING me something, eat it, wait, what's this, sniff sniff sniff".

Then they're confused, but still seriously hoping they're about to get a treat.

Flashlight, hmmm, almost the shape of a bone...


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## DM51 (Dec 14, 2009)

Dude Dudeson said:


> ... rather try offering the dog the light... "here ya go, here ya go" They react with "oooh, he's GIVING me something, eat it, wait, what's this, sniff sniff sniff" ... hmmm, almost the shape of a bone...


LOL, rather like this?


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## curtispdx (Dec 14, 2009)

Slightly off topic: I remember checking an unoccupied house a few months back. (Alarm activation.) 

When I got through the front door the family dog looked at me then bowed his head and did everything it could to walk around me so he could get out of my way. 

Beagle. :laughing:


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## tpolley (Dec 14, 2009)

carry a bigger flashlight!! a 3 or 4 d cell maglite can be a very affective weapon against violent dogs (and people) when you use it to crush their skull as they advance towards you. you likely won't get the same result with a surefire 6p. if you're unable to wield a flashlight and are worried about dog (or people) attacks i might suggest some pepper spray or do what i do and carry a concealed pistol and a flashlight to supliment the pistol.

edit:
don't get me wrong, i love dogs (i love cats better). i'm not advocating unnecessary violence towards any animal. but i do advocate staying alive and not getting mangled or messed up by any animal or human.


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## DM51 (Dec 14, 2009)

tpolley said:


> ... you use it to crush their skull as they advance towards you


This is precisely the sort of stupid comment that is *NOT* required in this thread. I cautioned against comments of this type just a few posts above this one:



DM51 said:


> I'm glad there's no discussion here of using more radical or forceful means for incapacitating dogs or other animals, except in the context of LEOs who in the course of their duty have had no alternative but to use force.
> 
> *Let's keep it that way*


Let me guess... you didn't bother to read that?



tpolley said:


> ... don't get me wrong, i love dogs


_Really?_ Who on earth would have thought it...

If there is any more unnecessary nonsense of this sort, the thread will be closed.


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## tpolley (Dec 14, 2009)

first i would like to apoligise to those who may have been offended by my earlier comments.
second, DM51, as a deputy sheriff you have one of, if not _the_ hardest job out there and i thank you for your service.

let me reiterate i am not advocating _unnecessary_ violence towards any animal. the context, as i understood, was using flashlights in self defence situations against dog attacks. a context, which i think the option to use force is very relevant. lets not forget the stories in the news about people being mauled by dogs all over the country. i don't know all the details of every story but i can imagine that most dog attacks are not necessarily the fault of the dog, but rather the dog owner and/or the "victim". i don't think most dogs would just run out in the street and attack someone un-provoked. but what if it did?

some of the other forums i am a member of we talk about alot of "what if's". what if you're in this situation and this happens, what do you do. i think talking about _all_ options, including radical or forcefull means, helps people to sort of plan out what they might do in a self defense situation. 
if you go into a situation blind, without a plan, you're done.

so what do you do? say you're joging down the street and a dog charges you acting like he's going to bite. say its broad daylight and maybe you have a flashlight as part of your edc but the suns out and most flashlights wont throw a beam more than a few feet in the sunlight. so what do you do? maybe back away? what if the dog still advances? i don't cary mace or pepper spray as part of my edc because i'm not realy worried about dog attacks. i have a flashlight, a knife and a 9mm pistol. my flashlight is a surefire 6p. not a very tactical weapon but maybe it could be used as a blunt force type weapon. the knife and 9mm are only last resort options, if the dog has already attacked.

if you're on the dogs turff it's a different story. you're invading that dogs territory. of course he's going to be angry. thats why animal control has non violent methods of detaining dogs. not everyone has access to that equipment nor the means to carry it while they're out and about.

Originally Posted by *DM51* 


I'm glad there's no discussion here of using more radical or forceful means for incapacitating dogs or other animals, except in the context of LEOs who in the course of their duty have had no alternative but to use force.

i don't think thats a fair statement. law enforcement officers are not the only ones allowed to defend themselves. i think others besides law enforcement officers should be allowed to talk about different ways of using flashlights and can benifet from it as well. again, i know mine is a bad example, i should have worded it differently.

Originally Posted by *DM51* 

 
_I'm glad there's no discussion here of using more radical or forceful means for incapacitating dogs or other animals_
_Let me guess... you didn't bother to read that?_

no i didn't read that. i skimmed all the posts on the first page before i commented.


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## Sgt. LED (Dec 14, 2009)

Never been effective, tried it more than once.


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## thedeske (Dec 15, 2009)

Andy80F said:


> Big torches can be used as clubs, little ones get stuck in there throats.
> 
> Andy



That's pretty much my experience as well 

If they wanna bite, they'll bite. Some just want to get close enough to make sure you're aware of their territory. There's never a rule by breed. It's dog to dog luck of the draw (so to speak)


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## leukos (Dec 15, 2009)

I should have posted this somewhat related link sooner, but here's an old thread about an M3T vs. a mountain lion: https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/83599


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