# Battery exploded in flashlight



## SJACKAL (Apr 13, 2006)

My friend was driving when he suddenly heard a loud POP and the car was filled with a really pungent smell so bad that he had to get out of the car.

Turns out that the SL Scorpion he was wearing on his belt sorta exploded, actually its the Panasonic CR123A batteries in it. The batts are all blacken and the flashlight interior was covered with a layer of black substance. The flashlight lens cracked from the impact/pressure/whatever.

Amazingly, the light still works and the bulb is ok. The only damage is the lens, I guess its from the pressure.

He done nothing strange to the light before the incident, just normal regular usage. I wonder why it happened.

Is the smell and the black substance toxic?


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## InfidelCastro (Apr 13, 2006)

Do you know if he was mixing batteries, or were they both new bats?


I've about given up on CR123A's and other lithium batteries cuz they're really starting to scare the hell out of me. Don't want them to burn down my house.


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## leukos (Apr 13, 2006)

Panasonic isn't the best quality either....


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## Charlie Brown (Apr 13, 2006)

I've got a load of panasonic CR123A's that I'm using in a 6P. Didn't want to hear this ! 

I would have expected a branded cell like the Panansonic to be safe when used correctly


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## Delvance (Apr 13, 2006)

I think i read in the exploding Peli M6 thread that the substance can actually be dangerous. Be careful.


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## Protaeus (Apr 13, 2006)

yes....the gas is most definately toxic - almost anything plastic is toxic when burnt so I would not inhale it if possible. 

exploding cells... hope that doesnt happen to me, but from what I can tell it seems to be a rarity...


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## FRANKVZ (Apr 13, 2006)

Browning had a recall on batteries rupturing. I had a flashlight that was involved but I can't remember the brand of battery. http://www.cpsc.gov/cpscpub/prerel/prhtml04/04067.html


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## europium (Apr 13, 2006)

*Cause is almost always ... mixed batteries*

Alkalines usually simply leak, but lithiums can "rapidly vent with flame,"  producing a huge increase in pressure inside the light, which is then released when one end or the other pops off. This can happen in any manufacturer's light.

Having read numerous threads on this subject (do a search and you'll find them), the cause almost always seems to be mixing new batteries with old, or mixing dead or nearly dead batteries with ones that still have a good amount of juice left, or even mixing two or more new batteries made by different manufacturers. As you read these threads you discover that this seems to never happen with lights that use a single lithium cell.

When you buy lithium batteries, label them. Use matched cells from the same batch only. Never mix batteries made by different manufacturers. Immediately dispose of spent cells.

Read the other threads on this topic for more information.


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## roguesw (Apr 13, 2006)

yup, panasonics are not the best for some reason, i bought 20 batteries, brand new in shrink wrap, pack of fours, found two were already leaking, opened the rest of them to check them but brand new and 2 were already leaking


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## SilverFox (Apr 13, 2006)

Hello SJACKAL,

Very interesting...

One possibility is that the light accidentally got turned on. When the light goes dim, you should shut it off. If you leave it on, one battery can drain faster than the other one and ends up getting a reverse charge just by being in the circuit. Charging and reverse charging lithium batteries results in rapid venting, sometimes with flame.

Streamlight recommends using Panasonic CR123 batteries in their lights, so I would send a note to them explaining what happened.

There have been some recent threads about mismatched batteries getting hot, but few have actually vented. We are trying to establish a web site where we can report test results of various batches of batteries of various brands. The ZTS tester seems to allow us to check new battery consistency, but there is an ongoing discussion as to what it means if the battery tests at less than 100%.

If I had to give a guess based on what little testing I have done so far, I would say that it is possible to have one battery that tests at less than 100% out of a batch of 50 to 100 cells. Some brands are showing results worse than that.

As others have mentioned, the chemicals and odor are nasty. Make sure you take the proper precautions around them. 

Once again, make sure you contact Streamlight about this.

Tom


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## Lunal_Tic (Apr 13, 2006)

Probably wouldn't hurt to contact Panasonic as well. Glad nothing important got blown off.

-LT


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## TORCH_BOY (Apr 13, 2006)

I have had one go off in a charger, I tried to charge a rechargeable Alkaline
in a charger meant for nicad batteriesl, lucky not in a Flashlight


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## a99raptors (Apr 13, 2006)

I'll bet SF123s are reliable... but that's just my guess.


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## SJACKAL (Apr 13, 2006)

Thus far the best batts seems to be Energiser. I wish I could help my friend, his not exactly a flashlight guy...

I guess I will try to get a photo and contact Streamlight, but I am not expecting much. I am located in Singapore. My past bad experience with Pelican still leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Thus far only Surefire and maybe Arc took care of my warranty issues.


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## SJACKAL (Apr 13, 2006)

Thanx for replies guys.

Oh yeah I just read Streamlight's website, they got this "No Excuses Warranty", I will see how it works out, though personally I don't feel that its Streamlights' fault.

Previously, Pelican's "You break it, we replace it, forever" was empty talk to me, and the fault was theirs. I know I shouldn't mention Pelican here but I just can't help it when I come to think about flashlight warranty.

Will email Panasonic too, but I don't know where to start, since Panasonic is a fairly large company dealing with a large range of products. I reckon my email would probably be ignored or KIV due to nobody know whos in charge of exploding batteries, etc, and eventually forgotten.


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## Ray_of_Light (Apr 13, 2006)

"Rapid venting with flame" is tipical of overcharged Li-Ion (rechargeable) batteries, not of primary lithium batteries. THe Lithium cobalt oxide, contained in the Li-Ion battery will self-ignite, and burn in absence of oxygen, at temperature above 160 Celsius.

Standard Li-MnO2 batteries, like the 123s, can undergo a series of problems due to hydratation of the MnO2 (Manganese oxide), that can produce the venting of the battery and possibly, its explosion.
This can happen if the crimp seal of the battery is defective, letting water from atmosphere in the battery. In operation, the water diffused in the MnO2 reacts with lithium, with known nasty effects.
Another known case is when the overpressure relief opens, and the battery is kept in operation. After a while, it will contain enough water to spark an explosion.
One more case is the use of mineral MnO2 (tipically used in heavy duty batteries), instead of pure MnO2 - obtained by high temperature cracking. I have seen this in cheap chinese 123.

Always inspect your 123 batteries before use. One battery over 100 is a dud, disregardless of the brand. 

Anthony


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## Englander (Apr 13, 2006)

Can anyone provide any pictures of "dud" batteries as they look out of the box, so I know what im looking for when i check my new ones?

Or describe how they look different from the good ones?

Thanks.

Craig.


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## Ray_of_Light (Apr 13, 2006)

Sorry for my poor expression. Obviously, when I said "dud" I meant a defective battery.
I'm afraid but you will not be able to spot a defective battery by looking at it. There are no externally visible signs that can reveal about the defective internal.
The optimum solution would be to use a battery tester like the ZTS. It is a tester that puts the battery under electrical load and measure the its behavior by use of a specialized software.

The "poor man" alternative is to "flash amp" the battery. Use a DMM on 20 Amp. range, "short" the battery for 2 seconds, and verify the max current pulse and its speed of decay.
Brand new batteries gives from 9 to 14 Amps as max current spike, decreasing 5% after two seconds.
Do not prolong the test for more than two seconds. The battery contains a number of protections that will kickin. I'm talking of the PTC (positive temperature coefficient) device, that will set off for any sustained current draw above 5 Amps; and the overpressure spike relief that will open the seal of the battery in case of overpressure; if that sets off, your battery becomes unusable. The PTC will eventually reset.

Anthony


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## ACMarina (Apr 13, 2006)

You should contact the battery manufacturer too - IIRC, somebody contacted one of the big alkaline manufacturers about a maglite that was frozen shut. I was thinking that although they had the person ship the light to them for verification, they reimbursed the shipment, sent a new maglite and a bunch of batteries..


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## pedalinbob (Apr 13, 2006)

It is surprising that more manufacturers don't place a small vent (or catalyst pellets, or both)) into their lights. It is hardly rocket science. My inexpensive UK's have them, and several of my PT's have catalyst pellets.

My biggest concern with these reports is the potential for explosion and injury. The thread where the Pelican was shredded really opened my eyes.

I have even considered drilling a very small hole in our Tec-40's (they live in our cars with lithiums), and either filling the holes with candle wax or covering them with a sticky tape. This would create a kind of emergency vent, hopefully preventing an actual explosion, and still provide water proofing/resistance.

Bob


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## stockae92 (Apr 13, 2006)

so one of the best way to prevent this is run the same brand of battery, replace battery with the flashlight is dim? 

what about low drain flashlight? (e.g. Inova X5T, etc)


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## ACMarina (Apr 13, 2006)

Same thing, you'll just hit that point slowly..


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## InfidelCastro (Apr 14, 2006)

Ok I lied. I haven't given up on CR123A's, but they kinda scare me.


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## SCblur (Apr 14, 2006)

Okay, this isn't the first post I've seen about combusting 123's. How dangerous is this if it happens? I have no idea what kind of force these things put out when they blow. Is it really an "explosion" or does it just catch fire? Would it hurt you if you were holding the light (or battery) when it blew? Does it give you any advanced warning? I'm just wondering how freaked out I should be, since I know nothing about this.


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## amlim (Apr 14, 2006)

SJACKAL said:


> Thus far the best batts seems to be Energiser. I wish I could help my friend, his not exactly a flashlight guy...
> 
> I guess I will try to get a photo and contact Streamlight, but I am not expecting much. I am located in Singapore. My past bad experience with Pelican still leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Thus far only Surefire and maybe Arc took care of my warranty issues.


 
hi sjackal,

is this the scorpion i sold to your friend? oh no!!!!!!!!! its dead !!!!! j/k

try and contact streamlight. i have contacted them before and they have been professional. 

i also suggest that you contact panasonic. i guess the best way is to go to their global site and see if you can find a link to their batteries.

hope you friend gets a new scorpion. 

cheers.


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## vaism (Apr 14, 2006)

wow.. that is nasty. Can imagine how bad it'd be if it exploded in my pants pocket..


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## atm (Apr 14, 2006)

SCblur said:


> Okay, this isn't the first post I've seen about combusting 123's. How dangerous is this if it happens? I have no idea what kind of force these things put out when they blow. Is it really an "explosion" or does it just catch fire? Would it hurt you if you were holding the light (or battery) when it blew? Does it give you any advanced warning? I'm just wondering how freaked out I should be, since I know nothing about this.


 
https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/78843

Should answer most of your questions.






Andrew


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## Northern Lights (Apr 14, 2006)

vaism said:


> wow.. that is nasty. Can imagine how bad it'd be if it exploded in my pants pocket..


I had contemplated providing my wife with high capacity 9V lithium batteries for a medical device she wears for support of a disability. I settled on cost effectiveness and got her several high capacity 9V NiMh 's rechargeables.

It seems that in my advanced age I have noticed some women to be blessed with premonitions. As we were standing outside two weeks ago I could smell in the air the odor of burnt garbage, like plastic burning. That odor inspired my wife to comment that just moments before she envisioned herself exploding into flames. No more were the words out of her mouth and she jumped turning out her pockets, her slack smoldering and smoking. I explained the obvious that you do not put 9V batteries with unprotected terminals in a pocket of keys and coins. The battery had blown up splitting its seams while igniting its plastic label.

I wonder what the lithium 9V would have done. I wonder about the Golston I carry in my pocket with rechargeable Li-ions.


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## Dr_Joe (Apr 14, 2006)

a99raptors said:


> I'll bet SF123s are reliable... but that's just my guess.


 
Last I heard (from a Panasonic employee) SF CR123s are made by Panasonic  
These stories always scare the #&*! out of me ! They remind me that I have hundreds of little bombs all over the house, my car, and in my pockets :sweat: :sick2: :shakehead


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## Fringe (Apr 14, 2006)

When batteries go dead in one light, I like to take them and suck them dry in my single cell lights, is this bad? I keep my dead batteries out in the gbarage in a metal pail, is this bad? Now I am starting to get scared.


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## WAVE_PARTICLE (Apr 14, 2006)

So, in general, which is more dangerous? Lithium batteries or rechargeable lithium ion batteries? The stories I seem to hear of are of the primary lithium batteries, but I don't hear too much of the Li-ions.

Is it because protection circuitry in Li-ions are more prevalent and thus reducing the instances of catastrophic failure? :shrug: 

Most of my everyday utilities have Li-ions......cell phones, PDA, notebook etc... You don't hear too many stories about those items exploding? Maybe Li-ions are safer?


WP


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## martytoo (Apr 14, 2006)

SilverFox said:


> Hello SJACKAL,
> 
> Very interesting...
> 
> ...


 
Tom is correct in my opinion.

I didn't mix the Cyclops batteries that came in my Cyclops light. I think I must have left it in the on position when the batteries were so weak that they could no longer illuminate the bulb.

Whatever happened, there was no mixing and these were new...


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## SJACKAL (Apr 17, 2006)

amlim said:


> hi sjackal,
> 
> is this the scorpion i sold to your friend? oh no!!!!!!!!! its dead !!!!! j/k
> 
> ...



Yeah thats the one, hadnt got chance to take pics and contact Streamlight or panasonic yet...


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## UnknownVT (Apr 17, 2006)

Sticky: A Little Accident. W/123's and a Peli. M6

Panasonic USA -
1-800-211-PANA(7262)

or use their on-line Contact Page


Outside of the USA -

Panasonic Global Site

Panasonic Global Support Page


Singapore -

Panasonic Singapore site

Panasonic Singapore Support Page


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## SJACKAL (Apr 20, 2006)

Thank you, Vincent.


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## SJACKAL (Apr 20, 2006)

By the way my friend had cleaned up the black residues before I took pictures, so I only managed to photograph the damaged lens, do you guys think Streamlight or Panasonic would care?


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## SuperNinja (Apr 20, 2006)

Protaeus said:


> yes....the gas is most definately toxic - almost anything plastic is toxic when burnt so I would not inhale it if possible.


His description does not make it sound like the smell is coming from burnt plastic. The smell is more likely to be the gases from within the battery itself.



Side note:
I saw a computer UPS once that had a swollen battery, that was also leaking gas. The gas had a very strong, sulfur like smell to it, and was strong enough to burn your sinuses. The gas had competely filled up the garage that the UPS was in, and a door to the outside had to be opened to allow the gas to escape, before you could enter.


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## sween1911 (Apr 20, 2006)

stockae92 said:


> so one of the best way to prevent this is run the same brand of battery, replace battery with the flashlight is dim? what about low drain flashlight? (e.g. Inova X5T, etc)




I was just thinking, I use fresh 123's in my SF lights, but I use the X5T as the catch-all for almost dead batteries that won't power up the SF's but can still be sucked dry.

If I throw them on a meter and they measure the same to the nearest 10th of a volt, would that be safe? Example: I measured the two I have in the X5T now and they're both at 2.8V. Is that okay?


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## NewBie (Apr 20, 2006)

IMHO, there are quite a few rather ignorant folks who like to pretend to be experts. If you really don't know what you are talking about, you shouldn't say something is safe when it truely is not. I'm not an expert either, but I do have the skills to read...

Duracell 123A nasties:
Thermal degradation may produce hazardous fumes
of manganese and lithium; 
hydrofluoric acid; 
oxides of carbon and sulfur 
and other toxic by-products.

Notes to Physician
1) Potential leakage of dimethoxyethane, propylene carbonate and lithium trifluoromethane sulfonate.
http://www.duracell.com/oem/safety/pdf/2003_9.pdf

(Hydrofluoric Acid is definitely not something one should even think about messing around with.)

(Alot of these byproducts are just as nasty as what comes out of a Li-Ion rechargable cell.)



Energizer's take on things:
Under normal conditions of use, the battery is hermetically sealed.

Ingestion: Swallowing a battery can be harmful.
Contents of an open battery can cause serious chemical burns of mouth, esophagus, and gastrointestinal tract.
If battery or open battery is ingested, do not induce vomiting or give food or drink. Seek medical attention immediately.
CALL NATIONAL BATTERY INGESTION HOTLINE for advice and follow-up (202-625-3333) collect, day or night.

Inhalation: Contents of an open battery can cause respiratory irritation. Provide fresh air and seek medical attention.

Skin Absorption: Dimethoxyethane, dioxolane, and lithium trifluoromethanesulfonate may be absorbed through the skin, causing
localized inflammation.

Skin Contact: Contents of an open battery can cause skin irritation and/or chemical burns. Remove contaminated clothing and
wash skin with soap and water. If a chemical burn occurs or if irritation persists, seek medical attention.

Eye Contact: Contents of an open battery can cause severe irritation and chemical burns. Immediately flush eyes thoroughly with
water for at least 15 minutes, lifting upper and lower lids, until no evidence of the chemical remains. Seek medical attention.

Note: Carbon black is listed as a possible carcinogen by International Agency for Research on Cancer (IARC).

http://data.energizer.com/PDFs/lithiummangdioxide_psds.pdf


Please don't pretend to be an expert when you are not, and pass supposedly "informed" opinions.

(P.S.- I'm not an expert on batteries either, but I can read...)


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## Paladin (Apr 20, 2006)

I don't think an open circuit voltage measurement of the cell tells much.

A regulated one cell light I have (Magellan 1 watt Lux from Academy) that uses a single 123 cell went dead so suddenly I was caught by surprise. One use, 100% brightness. Next time, dim and dimmer like it just faded away. The PANASONIC cell still measured 2.9 volts but could only supply 70mA, when it had been providing 350mA when fresher at 2.96 volts.

The "dead" PANASONIC cell had the green ring under the wrapper at the negative end...just like my Surefire and Streamlight branded cells have!

*Anyone use a resistive load for cell testing?* It occurred to me my audio dummy load can provide an 8 ohm, 4 ohm, or 2 ohm load to test Lithiums at a nominal 375mA, 750mA, and 1500mA. How much load does a normal battery tester apply to the cells? Thanks,

Paladin


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## UnknownVT (Apr 20, 2006)

*SJACKAL* wrote: _"do you guys think Streamlight or Panasonic would care?"_

They _SHOULD_ care. 

Someone could have been seriously injured by the incident.

No one really expects a flashlight and batteries might be a "bomb" -


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## stockae92 (Apr 20, 2006)

sween1911 said:


> I was just thinking, I use fresh 123's in my SF lights, but I use the X5T as the catch-all for almost dead batteries that won't power up the SF's but can still be sucked dry.
> 
> If I throw them on a meter and they measure the same to the nearest 10th of a volt, would that be safe? Example: I measured the two I have in the X5T now and they're both at 2.8V. Is that okay?



that's why i am thinking of getting a single cell direct drive (possibly with multiple 5mm LED) flashlight for the "suck-it-dry" process (instead of using the X5T)

but don't know which one to get yet


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## Lunarmodule (Apr 20, 2006)

a99raptors said:


> I'll bet SF123s are reliable... but that's just my guess.



Good guess. In the exploding Pelican M6 thread, the prime suspect for the detonating cell(s) were indeed Surefire 123s, with the distinctive red wrapper. Another CPF thread reported rupturing primary Cr123s in a Surefire M6 while stored in a vehicle in extreme cold. Brand? Surefire. In each thread were several mentions of other Surefire batteries involved in little disasters. Kind puts a new twist on the company's play on words name. Surefire: you can be sure of one thing, this babys gonna FIRE* (*=we didnt say one kind or another)

Its kind of irritating to hear reports of folks regarding their lithium batteries as "little bombs" and nonsense like that. Automobiles are killing machines like no other, with incomprehesibly terrible murderous potential cleverly concealed with mile after trouble free mile of normal driving. If everybody contemplated nothing BUT how head on collisions are supposed to be like at 75mph, how many folks could still keep their wits about them in a parking lot at those parking lot speeds? Simple: folks would scare themselves into NOT driving? Why risk it? Life's too precious. It certainly is. To waste time cowering in fear over flashlight batteries, it is indeed. Now, for the schmoe with his 15 Amp Magmod 3D with magnets between his CPB1650 cells, be afraid, be very afraid. Your express ticket to Short CIrcuit CIty is waiting for you, sir. But especially single cell applications, 123s of ANY manufacture. I worry much more about being spontaneously mawled by escaped Persian Tigers from the local zoo.

I distinctly remember someone wisecracking about my portable hand grenade, referring to my home grown rechargeable LiIon battery pack I made for my Surefire M6. I used unprotected cells in a pack configuration, and it was likened by one to be akin to said grenade. Be sure to update your progress if you still have both hands in a few weeks..... I shake my head and remember that one.


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## NewBie (Apr 22, 2006)

You know, it is *quite* ignorant for folks to be discounting the dangers of Lithium cells...in the extreme.

We see examples quite often, of them causing things to project, that could easily put out a child's eye, or get hot and disfigure/leave scares. That Lithium 123 cell M6 flashlight tailcap launched so hard, that it nearly went through a solid oak cabinet door! 

The thread is found here, make sure to follow the thread to the end, you will see additional pictures later in the thread:
http://candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=78843

Here is another example of these Primary Lithium 123 cells (Battery Station) misbehaving, luckily this one didn't fail so badly:
http://candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=91245

And it is not always when you abuse the cells, occassionally they just blow up.

We are constantly getting new members, and it is important for them to understand the dangers and risks.

It is really stupid to the extreme, to think there are no dangers. We have seen multiple examples of 123 cells causing dangerous failures right here on cpf, and we are a very small cross-section of only ~20,000 users.

Once one is aware of the dangers of Lithium batteries, and how to treat them properly, not to mix brands, or *NOT* putting in a fresh 123 for one of the two that was dead- to save money, *NOT* running them down until the filament doesn't glow at all, *NOT* letting them bake in the sun in a flat black finish flashlight on a dashboard, *NOT* trying to recharge them, *NOT* trying to recharge them, *NOT* using cells that have a dent, and many other situations, then a person can make a _ *WISE* informed _ choice, and also be aware of the dangers and how to treat Lithium cells accordingly.

I am very surprised that the majority flashlight manufacturers have not added circuitry to shut down a 123 cell flashlight when the cells drop below a given voltage. This would help eliminate one of the possible failure modes that can lead to venting, venting with flame, expulsion of internals, projectile launching of internals, or explosion. A safety venting mechanism in sealed flashlights might also be very useful in these situations, allowing a Lithium 123 cell flashlight to contain some of the failure modes, resulting in less danger/risk to the end user.

To give you just one example of the many safety bulletin/recalls dealing with 123 cells:

Name of product: Fuji Power and A&T Fuji Power

CR123A 3-volt lithium batteries originally provided with Galls® H.A.L.O. Tactical Flashlight.
Hazard: The batteries originally provided with the flashlight may overheat or explode presenting a potential for fire or personal injury.

Incidents/Injuries: Five reports of batteries overheating or exploding have been received, causing minor injuries such as burns and minor
property damage from fire.
http://list.uvm.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0309d&L=safety&D=1&P=9889

And there are *PLENTY* of these type of safety/recall notices out there.

Just knowing that 123 Primary Lithium cells are in fact a risk, and understanding how to treat them properly to minimize that risk is very important.


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## Illum (Apr 29, 2006)

Thanks alot NewBie :sick2:

Im really scared now....


-Two boxes of 12 "bombs" are currently sitting infront of me in their red Surefire Boxes. 
-Fireworks from the previous 0704 in a bag on the shelf behind me. WD-40 on adjoining working bench, and a couple butane cans for lighter refill...


My inova XO with its two 123As tucked under my pillow... and the nearest fire extinguisher is behind three doors and in the garage

What are the risks in percentage that a new cr123A stored in ambient room temperature explode into fire and glory at my expense?


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## NewBie (Jun 17, 2006)

Illum_the_nation said:


> Thanks alot NewBie :sick2:
> 
> Im really scared now....
> 
> ...




The risks? I don't believe I'm qualified to say.

Don't be scared, just treat them with the respect they really do deserve.


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## sniper (Jun 17, 2006)

SJACKAL said:


> My friend was driving when he suddenly heard a loud POP and the car was filled with a really pungent smell so bad that he had to get out of the car.
> 
> Turns out that the SL Scorpion he was wearing on his belt sorta exploded, actually its the Panasonic CR123A batteries in it. The batts are all blacken and the flashlight interior was covered with a layer of black substance. The flashlight lens cracked from the impact/pressure/whatever.
> 
> ...




Definitely let the battery and light manufacturers know what happened. There is a sticky and really long thread about a member that this happened to.


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## Lit Up (Jun 19, 2006)

Give me good old fashioned AA alkies anytime.

The expense isn't worth it
The extra bit of brightness/runtime isn't worth it. 

I'll take a dead flashlight from a battery leak everytime. You can throw a rock and basically hit somewhere where there is a AA or two running about and/or being sold. If you're going to the boonies; plan ahead.
Keep the lights in your car checked from time to time.

If you were to burn down your house because of one of these, I can pretty much guarantee the wife is gonna put an end to your flashaholism - full stop.

I'm sure you could try to rationalize that a new flashlight you got only runs on alkalines much like the TV remote does. I'm also pretty sure that that rational would fall on deaf ears. All that would compute to them is: flashlight=destroyed home.

Probably best to store those things in some kind of fire safe or even an army surplus ammo can to minimize any damage if you use flashlights that take them.

I'll stick to inexpensive AA/D's myself.


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## benighted (Jun 20, 2006)

I experienced the same thing after I made a flashlight out of a MR16 track light by soldering 4 123A's in series and adding a switch.
I had it sitting in the backseat of my car when I heard a loud "pop" and then a pungent lithium odor (smells like a hot lithium battery only much stronger). I don't know why it exploded but it may have shorted out somehow


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## Knight Lights (Jun 20, 2006)

benighted,

NEVER solder Lithum cells. That is a major NO-NO!!

In fact, soldering Li cells is asking for trouble.

Bill


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## batterystation (Jun 20, 2006)

I am not sure how to say more than Newbie and others have already said except this:

Exploding batteries is NOT, I repeat NOT a brand of battery issue. They are ALL unsafe in certain yet to be completely understood conditions. There is a lot of common sense things to keep in mind like NOT mixing batteries, etc.

There appear to be freaky things that happen. Our goal is to attempt to figure a lot of this out but the bottom line seems to be "BE CAREFUL."

Alkaline batteries can produce hydrogen gas as well and have caused flashlight bodies to also explode, so again apply common sense and just beware that you are dealing with stored energy. Stored energy can get unstored pretty fast at times.


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## benighted (Jun 20, 2006)

Knight Lights said:


> benighted,
> 
> NEVER solder Lithum cells. That is a major NO-NO!!
> 
> ...


Thanks for the warning Bill I read this somewhere on the forums but I figured since I was already done with the soldering the danger was in the past but I guess the heat can do unseen damage to the batteries and cause them pop. 
But I'm still not sure if the exploded battery was caused by heat damage or a short, the wiring was a bit sloppy so it could have been either.


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## bwaites (Jun 20, 2006)

Soldering a Lithium cell can close the vents that are necessary for safe function.

Multiple factors then come into play.

Bill


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## batterystation (Jun 20, 2006)

It would seem that single cell lights are the safest because most are LED and they eliminate the "mixed cell" added hazard. I believe SFs now to be Energizers.


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## Warp (Jun 20, 2006)

After reading all of these recent events I changed where I store my lithium batteries! Until a few days ago I kept them in the same drawer as approximately 200 rounds of ammo for handgun.  

All lithiums are now safely removed from ammo in their own otter box.


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## FlashlightOCD (Jun 20, 2006)

I completely forgot that I kept a black FireFly in my car for emergency. Only one cell, but in the Florida sun with no shade and black car interior I suspect it might be thermally stressing the cell a bit. Especially after exposure for an entire summer last year. I removed the light and changed the cell out "Just in Case".

Not trying to scare anyone, I'm just suggest thinking about things like that and use common sense. I've been through literally hundreds of CR123's with only minor malfunctions [a few of the cells "silently" dying prematurely]. I will continue to use my SF M6 and other multi-cell 123's, just think I might consider thermal strain on the batteries a little more carefully now.

Someone in another thread mentioned rotating cells [front to back] in high power multi-cell lights, reasoning that thermal difference might drain batteries at different rates. That made sense to me. Any of the battery experts buy into that theory?


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## rcashel11 (Jun 20, 2006)

From Energizer's Product Safety Data Sheet for Lithium-Manganese Dioxide batteries:



> If soldering or welding to the battery is required, consult your Eveready Battery Company representative for proper precautions to prevent seal damage or short circuit.​​​


​ 
http://data.energizer.com/PDFs/lithiummangdioxide_psds.pdf


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## mdocod (Jun 20, 2006)

> ... lithium batteries! Until a few days ago I kept them in the same drawer as approximately 200 rounds of ammo for handgun.



eeeeek! i'm kinda looking around me at the moment... realizing that I am surrounded by little bombs... i think i'm going to try to find a safe container for these suckers...


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## mdocod (Jun 20, 2006)

on a side note- anyone else find it slightly humorous that titanium cells from amondotech have "POWPOWER" in bold letters on the side? what are they trying to tell us?


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## tvodrd (Jun 20, 2006)

FlashlightOCD said:


> Someone in another thread mentioned rotating cells [front to back] in high power multi-cell lights, reasoning that thermal difference might drain batteries at different rates. That made sense to me. Any of the battery experts buy into that theory?



Don did some experiments along those lines here. Basically it seems that more watt-hours are available from a cell operated at elevated temperatures. I *think* a 123's internal resistance decreases as its temperature rises. 

The phenominon(sp) of a significant shelf/standby life reduction after using some percentage of a lith primary's capacity is also poorly understood, at least by me. I picked up my SF Beast recently and it wouldn't light. I dumped the (20!) SF123s and every one of them was completely dead, as in 0V! No leakers or other "issues." That light isn't easy to turn on by accident, and I doubt I set it muzzle-down on the floor behind this chair with it on!!! We have a lot to learn.

Larry


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## Lit Up (Jun 21, 2006)

And always wear eye protection when messing with batteries. This includes your car too.

Case in point: I was heading out one night (or at least attempting to), vehicle had been sitting for hours and was no major heatwave that day or anything.
I turned the key and KABOOM! Battery exploded. Cracked that casing clean off in some parts. Sounded like a 12 gauge going off under the hood.

You just never know.


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## NewBie (Jun 30, 2006)

Warp said:


> After reading all of these recent events I changed where I store my lithium batteries! Until a few days ago I kept them in the same drawer as approximately 200 rounds of ammo for handgun.
> 
> All lithiums are now safely removed from ammo in their own otter box.



Whoa!


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## davidra (Jun 30, 2006)

As many Mag mods as there are around, has anyone heard of anything going off in a Mag body? I've got a bunch of 2C 3X123 mods around, including one stored in my boat, in a very salty and humid environment. Maybe that ain't such a good idea.....


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## NewBie (Jul 2, 2006)

Lunarmodule said:


> Good guess. In the exploding Pelican M6 thread, the prime suspect for the detonating cell(s) were indeed Surefire 123s, with the distinctive red wrapper. Another CPF thread reported rupturing primary Cr123s in a Surefire M6 while stored in a vehicle in extreme cold. Brand? Surefire. In each thread were several mentions of other Surefire batteries involved in little disasters. Kind puts a new twist on the company's play on words name. Surefire: you can be sure of one thing, this babys gonna FIRE* (*=we didnt say one kind or another)
> 
> Its kind of irritating to hear reports of folks regarding their lithium batteries as "little bombs" and nonsense like that. Automobiles are killing machines like no other, with incomprehesibly terrible murderous potential cleverly concealed with mile after trouble free mile of normal driving. If everybody contemplated nothing BUT how head on collisions are supposed to be like at 75mph, how many folks could still keep their wits about them in a parking lot at those parking lot speeds? Simple: folks would scare themselves into NOT driving? Why risk it? Life's too precious. It certainly is. To waste time cowering in fear over flashlight batteries, it is indeed. Now, for the schmoe with his 15 Amp Magmod 3D with magnets between his CPB1650 cells, be afraid, be very afraid. Your express ticket to Short CIrcuit CIty is waiting for you, sir. But especially single cell applications, 123s of ANY manufacture. I worry much more about being spontaneously mawled by escaped Persian Tigers from the local zoo.
> 
> I distinctly remember someone wisecracking about my portable hand grenade, referring to my home grown rechargeable LiIon battery pack I made for my Surefire M6. I used unprotected cells in a pack configuration, and it was likened by one to be akin to said grenade. Be sure to update your progress if you still have both hands in a few weeks..... I shake my head and remember that one.




I'm **very** glad to hear you are okay after your experience you related to us the other day. Folks, please be **very** careful, see a doctor after exposure to a exploding/venting cell. An exerpt from his thread:




Lunarmodule said:


> I'm still reeling with shock as I type this, bandages in place. They say there's a first time for everything, and my first lithium battery explosion happened moments ago to a flashlight in my hand while operating. It was a new (to me) Pelican M6 with incan lamp assembly, just arrived as a purchase from BST. It came with batteries already installed, CR123 primaries, am almost certain were Battery Station brand. The light was operating continuously for about 20 minutes, and I picked it up to move to another part of my darkroom. I noticed the body of the light was warm, not hot to the touch. As I picked it up it I heard a hissing sound, looked down and saw a gray haze spewing out around the rubber tailcap button, this was follwed by a shockingly loud *BANG* like a large firework. Startled, I dropped the light to the ground...._(cut off for brevity, for full read see thread link below-Newbie)_





Lunarmodule said:


> Unfortunately there is a darker side to this, I am finding out now. It appears I have absorbed some toxic materials through breathing and through the blood from the cuts. I slept most of the day, but awoke to overwhelming nausea and repeated vomiting. Ive got a strange rash covering both arms and most of my legs. I went to the after hours clinic and preliminary bloodwork showed some strange liver enzyme levels, one three times higher than the normal high range. The cuts, about a dozen of them, have all sealed up but are black compared to the reddened tissue surrounding them. Right after the incident, I flushed the cuts repeatedly with peroxide and removed the glass with tweezers. Then a bunch of Neosporin and a bandage. The doctor at the clinic repeated the same standard disinfection regieme, but is curious about the possibility of poisioning, thankfully low level. I went home and felt relieved, until I got home and vomiting started again, much worse than before. I followed SilverFox's advice and moved everything outside. I will find out later today what the other blood sample reveals. I need to find an MSDS type sheet for these cells, what compounds specifically may have entered my system. I feel terrible, like a bad case of the flu without a fever. The doc said there was nothing more to do besides keep changing bandages and disinfecting, watch and wait. I keep looking at my arms, which are completely covered in angry little red bumps, like measles. The doc indicated the liver enzyme results suggest the body is working full tilt to neutralize the toxins. He said as I suspected the rash is an allergic reaction to the foreign materials. Cheers to those CPFers that mentioned the bit about glass powder and residue. Clearly I shrugged off the significance of the acrid smoke too quickly.
> 
> I was going to rebuild the light, but for the time being until I feel normal again I dont want to go within 100 feet of that smell again (yeck!) If Kevin of batterystation wants the parts or someone else please drop me an email and let me know.




A little later:



Lunarmodule said:


> An update: Intrepid CPFer InFLux and all around nice fellow called me at home around noontime and I was feeling much better. Very nice, checking on my condition, which is not very serious thankfully.
> 
> I felt better until I got off the phone with the hospital that did the blood analysis. The doctor I saw yesterday referred my results to a toxicologist that confirms significant hydroflouric acid poisioning. Huge thanks to the CPFers that gave me the links for the MSDS sheets on the batteries. Finally my secondary exposure symptoms jibe with what I have read. Worst is the nausea and vomiting, which are at bay for now, and today I managed normal meals, OK. There is tissue necrosis (dead stuff) at the laceration sites, explaining the black color of the cuts. At higher inhaled concentrations complete shutdown of cardiovascular organs can happen with a delayed onset. The VERY good news is the exposure is relatively small, but significant enough to cause the nasty GI symptoms, skyrocketed liver enzyme numbers, and skin rash. Some friends came by at various times during the day and poked some fun at my appearance, the skin rash covering most of my extremeties resembles a childhood case of measles. It helps to laugh about it, the worst is definitely over. It seems to be clearing, I was going to head to the ocean for a swim but dont have the energy quite yet. The toxicologist advised lots of hydration and rest, easy enough. Apparently the hydroflouric acid released in gaseous form upon combustion is extremely damaging, and is particularly nasty in that the serious exposure symptoms have a very delayed onset as the radical free flourine disassociates from the acid form and wreaks its havoc on various systems. So on top of being the lithium exposion test pilot I get to be the hydroflouric acid guinea pig too! Reiterate thanks to all those wishing me well.





Lunarmodule said:


> Tremendous thanks to Nubo and Diesel bomber for providing HF toxicity links and MSDS info. Very timely and VERY helpful!!!



06-09-2006, 11:11 AM, Two days later:



Lunarmodule said:


> SilverFox and others have posted about the stuff from the combusted batteries being "real bad" for you in plain English. They are quite right. Moreso than I imagined. To relay my real world experience with this: even a SMALL amount of the gray gas expelled from the batteries during combustion inhaled can do significant DELAYED ONSET damage. I read about Icebreak and Bill Waites trying to replicate the failure, and I applaud their courageous and determined spirit, however I cannot stress highly enough that one should overexaggerate the danger of the fumes and wet char residue, which I handled with bare hands (no choice). This is not mamby-pamby MSDS Chicken Little the Sky is Falling scary sounding rhetoric... an MSDS would have you believe a car wash solution is so dangerous to handle you might want to invest in a full blown Hazmat suit in order to wash your car. They typically refer to catastrophic spills of material or somesuch. In the case of these batteries, I was shocked to discover almost all the MSDS was devoted to minimal discussion of how to deal with burned/burning batteries. There was a clear trend of disclaimer-ism: "in normal use the compounds contained within the metal can of the battery cannot come in contact with the user and thus are not subject to special handling precautions. There is a BRIEF mention of some of the potential decomposition byproducts of combustion, but the annoying phrase repeats saying this would only be applicable for abuse or disaster scenarios. That could stand revision. And to Bill Waites, PLEASE be super careful. You mentioned "fire is OK, an explosion is not....." in an earlier post. Well, what is happening or rather what did happen to me is the rapid venting was an out of control reaction producing large amounts of hydrogen. I recall that moment in high school chemistry of tossing a chunk of cryogenic sodium metal into a bath of water, it oxidized violently and liberated prodigious H2 (hydrogen) which eventually ignited from the intense heat of the vigorous reaction. Lots of bubbling, and a giant KaBOOM! as a climax. Strikingly similar to what occurred with the cells. The rapid venting (and I cannot emphasize this enough) is the only early warning sign but by itself is the true menace and real demon in this process. The hydrofluoric acid in this gaseous emission is horrifically toxic, I radically underestimated its impact on me, tricked by the delayed onset nature of the symptoms of its poisioning. I've turned the corner and improving, but I feel worse than when it first happened. I didnt sleep at all last night, threw up twice, and sweat so much I showered three times. I've got to get more rest, but the leg burns, I feel nauseated, and I'm still looking like a measles poster child. Nothing to do but wait it out. I can pass along to others that if you are exposed to a scenario of gray haze/smoke jetting from the battery, get yourself to a source of fresh air as fast as possible, and keep anyone else as far away as possible. Under no circumstances should you breathe ANY of the fumes if it can be avoided. In retrospect I should have gone outside instead of typing for 20 minutes in the same room with the evil haze. AVOID THIS STUFF AT ALL COSTS. There is nothing but a respirator, or better bottled air to cope with these fumes, they are more dangerous than I thought possible. BIll, I urge you to be extremely cautious if you insist on trying to induce this failure. If you manage a high pressure cell venting, the explosion is almost certain, as the cell vent exists to stop a runaway reaction. But the greatest danger is the chemical nastiness you can breathe. That needs to be emphasized in the MSDS sheets. And made common knowledge here. More than typical common sense suggests, take extra precautions to avoid any exposure to the fumes of burning batteries.
> 
> Im feeling wiped out again, a lot of typing. Going to lay down for a while. Thanks again for everyone's support.






Lunarmodule said:


> Phone rings. Again. The toxicologist from Queen's Hospital asking questions. They want me to go back in. At least for more blood. I hate that part the most. I just now read StoneDog's post and feel terrible. Its not fun, but what I've got is minor and nothing compared to what could have happened if I fell asleep reading with that light on. Jon, I dont believe you did anything negligent and there is no WAY I could have forseen this, much less you, so dont worry. Be grateful as I am that there is only minor damage to me and surroundings. The scary part is the chemical toxicity of what I interpreted to be a very slight exposure.



The full thread is found here:
http://candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=120888&page=1


**Please* do not underestimate the danger of the byproducts of an exploded/vented Lithium 123 Primary, and see the doctor*


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## beezaur (Jul 2, 2006)

Thank you for consolidating that, Newbie. It is a keeper.

Scott


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## drmaxx (Jul 2, 2006)

Newbie: A big thank you for compiling these essential parts out of this 600+ post thread.
I missed this specific part and I am very surprised to hear that Lunarmodule had to suffer through all this! My best wishes to you, Lunarmodule!


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## NewBie (Jul 2, 2006)

You are welcome fellas.

Cheers!


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## K Williams (Jul 3, 2006)

I'm planning on getting a SureFire 9P. Is it a good idea to open the flashlight from time to time to vent any possible build-up of gasses. A flashlight exploding in my pocket doesn't sound nice...


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## NewBie (Jul 3, 2006)

K Williams said:


> I'm planning on getting a SureFire 9P. Is it a good idea to open the flashlight from time to time to vent any possible bildup of gasses. A flashlight exploding in my pocket doesn't sound nice...



It seems that it might be wise, and to never mix brands or partially used cells with new ones, and cell matching might possibly be of use. Some folks have started drilling a hole in their light, to allow a gas escape route if something goes wrong. One take on things is that a person could backfill the hole with RTV (silicone or caulk), so that it remains moisture tight, but any gas pressure would blow out the RTV "valve".

Pretty much anything one does to lower the risk is a good idea, imho. Right now, several folks are doing testing in an attempt to find something to go on, to see if there is anything that can be done further.

Threads for reference:
http://candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=120888&page=1&pp=40

http://candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=123462&page=1&pp=40


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## K Williams (Jul 4, 2006)

NewBie said:


> It seems that it might be wise, and to never mix brands or partially used cells with new ones, and cell matching might possibly be of use. Some folks have started drilling a hole in their light, to allow a gas escape route if something goes wrong. One take on things is that a person could backfill the hole with RTV (silicone or caulk), so that it remains moisture tight, but any gas pressure would blow out the RTV "valve".
> 
> Pretty much anything one does to lower the risk is a good idea, imho. Right now, several folks are doing testing in an attempt to find something to go on, to see if there is anything that can be done further.
> 
> ...


 
Thanks for the info.


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## zulu45 (Jul 4, 2006)

*So, has anyone ever had an exploding battery in a single 123 cell light? Due to all these, I've retired my 6P, keeping it only in the case of an emergancy, with no batteries in it. Been using a Fenix P1 in its place.*


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## NewBie (Jul 5, 2006)

I've never seen a single cell CR123A Primary Lithium go.

There is the thread where one a AA Lithium Primary exploded, but not in a flashlight.
http://candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=121303&page=2&pp=40


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## Illum (Jul 5, 2006)

NewBie said:


> I've never seen a single cell CR123A Primary Lithium go.
> 
> There is the thread where one a AA Lithium Primary exploded, but not in a flashlight.
> http://candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=121303&page=2&pp=40



well, theres no way a lithium primary would get recharged by itself, thats for sure...unlike mixing charged state lithiums in a two or three cell...


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## Warp (Jul 5, 2006)

Illum_the_nation said:


> well, theres no way a lithium primary would get recharged by itself, thats for sure...unlike mixing charged state lithiums in a two or three cell...


 

Very true, and why many believe you are far less likely to have a "vent with flame" or worse in a single cell light.

However, one of NeWbie's tests seems to indicate that the fresh cell is the one that vented when a new and old cell were mixed.


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## NewBie (Jul 5, 2006)

SJACKAL said:


> My friend was driving when he suddenly heard a loud POP and the car was filled with a really pungent smell so bad that he had to get out of the car.
> 
> Turns out that the SL Scorpion he was wearing on his belt sorta exploded, actually its the Panasonic CR123A batteries in it. The batts are all blacken and the flashlight interior was covered with a layer of black substance. The flashlight lens cracked from the impact/pressure/whatever.
> 
> ...




Had he used it a bit beforehand?


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## xpitxbullx (Jul 5, 2006)

Are these lithium batteries exploding or creating a fast/slow expansion of gas?

Jeff


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## NewBie (Jul 6, 2006)

xpitxbullx said:


> Are these lithium batteries exploding or creating a fast/slow expansion of gas?
> 
> Jeff




Some have actually exploded and shot their internals out.

An example:






I've seen cases where the vent ruptures at very high pressures and just releases gas.

I've also seen cases where the vent ruptures and violently releases hot black crud in the gas, sometimes while it is on fire, so it is shooting flames at the same time.

I've seen the results of a violent venting scenario, where it was strong enough to break/cut/snap the really heavy battery spring on an old PM6. When it went, it actually sounded more like a ricochet from a .22 off a rock, and made the tail cap skip down over a few threads.

Some folks define an explosion as a sudden release of trapped gas/energy. Others consider an explosion a firey release.


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## Manzerick (Jul 6, 2006)

THat's my fear too!! I have a Q-3 in my pocket right now. It's normally a toss between the Q-3 or E1L... UGGG



vaism said:


> wow.. that is nasty. Can imagine how bad it'd be if it exploded in my pants pocket..


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## NewBie (Jul 7, 2006)

vaism said:


> wow.. that is nasty. Can imagine how bad it'd be if it exploded in my pants pocket..




This event was complete with explosion and fireball:







Look around post 647 for more pictures and details:
http://candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?p=1492092#post1492092


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## MattK (Jul 8, 2006)

batterystation said:


> It would seem that single cell lights are the safest because most are LED and they eliminate the "mixed cell" added hazard. I believe SFs now to be Energizers.



Hi Kevin,

Last I heard both Surefire and Streamlight are using Panasonics. 

Also, and I could be wrong on this but I think Energizer's been buying from Sanyo - I have bulk cases of both and they really look like they're from the same factory (Sanyo/Japan).


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## McGizmo (Jul 8, 2006)

NewBie said:


> This event was complete with explosion and fireball:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Well I for one don't plan let alone know how I would put this example in my pocket to start with!! At this point in time, I have been convinced that I have no interest in pocketing or carrying a 2xCR123 incan light hosting BS cells of mixed condition; one fresh and fully charged, the other partially depleted. To take this further, I have no intention of knowingly carrying or pocketing any 2xCR123 light with mixed condition cells regardless of manufacture and regardless of light engine composition. This latter comment only seems reasonable and prudent and has been cautioned against for quite some time. 

I have done numerous constant on run time tests with many of my 2xCR123 lights where the light reached operating temps, especially near end of battery life, that were well in excess of what I considered or felt (literally) to be reasonable or advisable. Perhaps I have just been lucky or perhaps the lights tested were somehow or for some yet to be identified reason, below any event threshold. All of these runtime tests involved SF CR123 cells fresh, but not metered, from a box. 

For those who truely understand the physics and chemistry involved, I expect a fair set of precursors to an event are understood and a threshold can be identified and designs and or suggestions of proper usage can allow users to use well below any threshold. Unfortunately no one with those qualifications has bothered to enlighten us at this point.

Empath has pointed out that there are no battery manufactures endorcing the use of CR123's in high power flashlights. By the same token, I am not aware of any of these manufactures cautioning against or seeking restriction of use of these cells from such an application. Perhaps they are happy having their cake and eat it too at present?

Is there an intrinsic and unsafe condition in general with using CR123 batteries in flashlights? I have not been convinced that this is the case. Is there a possible set of conditions or precursors that would allow an event to occur with CR123 cells and flashlights? I would say so! I think we have seen pictures to support this!!

To my knowledge, SF pioneered the use of CR123 cells in flashlights. I believe they have a sizeable database of information regarding the science and R&D of mating CR123 cells with highpower flashlights. We have heard of reported events involvng both SF lights as well as SF cells. We are not necessarily aware of the actual conditions leading up to these reported events nor do we know of extenuating circumstances that might have been at play or what the statistical significance of any justified events may be. By justified event, I mean one that is not a result of missuse or abuse.

SF may have pioneered the CR123 flashlight but at this point, the market is shared by many many other players and manufacturers of both lights and batteries. I was cautioned early on by a friend at SF that not all CR123 batteries should be considered safe in use with highpowered flashlights. He also cautioned me against mixing cells in any multi cell light. He went on to convince me that I _really_ needed to be careful if I wanted to mess with any Li-Ion systems!! This caution was so great that I still haven't embraced this technology to the extent that many have. 

Am I just lucky so far and yet still playing Russian Roulette? Am I spinning a very large capacity chamber that still has one loaded chamber? :shrug: I have not been convinced that this is the case and I would like to think that taking known precautions would keep me from such a game.

In the mean time, I will keep my eyes open to any additinal information and reported events but I refuse to turn and run based on faulty or what I consider to be overly broad or non scientific inferences or statements based on unseen logic or unsupported yet reported _facts_. To date, I am convinced that a multiple cell light has earned my respect and demands caution and concern. I knew this before but now am most certainly are of it!! 

I am much less clear on a single cell light and the only reported event (to my knowledge) of a single cell involves an AA lithim primary in conjunction with an electronic device that has other stored power connected to its circuit. Now is the AA primary the same chemistry and electrical make up of the CR123? Is it nominally 3 volts? Is the environment in which it failed similar in legitimate considerations to that of a flashlight? If yes, please enlighten me. If no, does mention of it cloud the issue more than anything else? If no then isn't its inclusion in our discussions more a case of unwarranted sensationalizing?

A book should not be judged by its cover but by its content. The event pictured and documented above should be judged by its validity as an experiment and adherence to proper controls and contitions and not by its appearance. I mention this because its appearance _could_ be questioned. I don't question Newbie or his work on this front but I do request that he adhere to responsible control of his experiments and of course take the necessary safety precautions which he certainly seems fluent in. At this point, it seems that we are in a data acquisition phase which can be of benefit to all and possibly considered by those who understand and manufacture these cells as well as provide them to us. What means of design might have been incoporated in the cells above to avoid the event? Are there additional means of protection? Was the above event independent of the particular cells involved and to be considered likely for any pair of CR123 cells subjected to the same mismatch of charge?

Some of us are peaceful by nature and inherently seek tranquility, harmony and understanding. Some of us are warriors by nature and seek battle and a good cause for fight. There are times for the farmer to raise his pitchfork to join in battle and there are times for the warrior to set down his sword. My point? Well beyond the content in these posts and on this forum are the folks who contribute the posts. Such contributions are surely tempered by the nature of the contributor I suspect. :thinking:

Please, let's gather facts and not sensation!!

[/ramble mode]


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## Flashdark (Jul 9, 2006)

McGizmo,

Very well said sir. I guess that I could stumble and fall and drive the popsicle stick in my pocket through my chest like a vampire stake, but I haven't stopped eating popsicles. HOWEVER, I do now position the sticks a bit more carefully after sucking on them.

Flashdark sends.


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## NewBie (Jul 10, 2006)

MattK said:


> Hi Kevin,
> 
> Last I heard both Surefire and Streamlight are using Panasonics.
> 
> Also, and I could be wrong on this but I think Energizer's been buying from Sanyo - I have bulk cases of both and they really look like they're from the same factory (Sanyo/Japan).




Sigh.


I've taken Streamlight, Energizer, Panasonic, Browning, SureFire cells apart, and these that I have, all say Made in USA, and I've actually disassembled them, and they even have the same Anode and Cathode crimping marks (same machine) internally within the cell itself. The rest of the internal construction is identical.

Duracell is different.

Battery Station is different.

See examples of how they are made inside, here:
http://candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?p=1485425


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## NewBie (Jul 10, 2006)

McGizmo said:


> Some of us are peaceful by nature and inherently seek tranquility, harmony and understanding. Some of us are warriors by nature and seek battle and a good cause for fight. There are times for the farmer to raise his pitchfork to join in battle and there are times for the warrior to set down his sword. My point? Well beyond the content in these posts and on this forum are the folks who contribute the posts. Such contributions are surely tempered by the nature of the contributor I suspect. :thinking:
> 
> Please, let's gather facts and not sensation!!
> 
> [/ramble mode]




Hey, would you deny that a number of two and three cell CR123A cell lights from multiple flashlight manufacturers, and cell manufactures have been shown to have actually failed? Did you realize that we now have two events occur where there were no flashlights involved? Did you realize there are two know SureFire 9P lights that have had cell failures, one of which actually split the side of the barrel in the middle of the 9P?

I do understand that there are vested interests that would like to hide these actual real life events, sweeping them under the rug to make them go away. However, as people begin to congregate, folks start talking, and word gets out. There have been way too many of these events for me to consider them a non-issue.

I'm really not trying to sensationalize what is actually occuring, with multiple lights, and to multiple folks. It is actually happening, and I'm doing a number of things. One is to make folks aware of the problem, and the other is then to investigate the issue myself, even further.

I am however, trying to make folks engage their brain housing groups and engage the brain that was given to them at birth. A little precaution and forethought can go mightly far in avoiding these scenarios. 

An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.

I hope you have noticed that I have been running a series of tests, which have been on going on for over a month now, at my very own expense-except recently, where Kevin from Battery Station started last week, and Dat2zip, Cmoore (and I hope I have not forgotten anyone) have contributed a few items for testing purposes in the past week, have each contributed a little. Recently, I started posting the results of the occurances, such as photos of the PM6 which had the cells fail in it, and my test rig and the ejected material. My life has a finite amount of minutes in it, and I have been volunteering my own time, hundreds of hours, and what I consider a substantial amount of my own personal resources. Life truely is limited and all too short to be wasting it on futile things.

I'm truely sorry if you do not like the results so far-they are what they are. One problem with doing this sort of thing publically- is that sometimes, folks feathers get rubbed the wrong way.

After I saw what just one single CR123A cell in this two cell setup- as did on friday during a test when one of the two cells **exploded**, I really was surprised, the forceful fireball, and the flaming flying debris which comprised at least 98% of the internal cell material ejected, and which continued to burn, truely humbled me.

I am used to working with these Primary Lithium cells that are a bit larger than these tiny CR123A cells. I however did not expect the violence of a few of these events. As usual, I was very glad I was prepared. At this time, I am considering an additional secondary containment vessel.

I am sorry you did not like my reference, it's intention was just to make people think a little bit more-to utilize their greatest gift.

I hope you understand.


An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.


.


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## McGizmo (Jul 10, 2006)

Newbie,
The results are what they are and I appreciate you bringing some of them to light. I am not clear on just _what_ they are or the mechanics causing these events; beyond the obvious that is. Whether I like what I see or not does not alter the reality of what is going on here. I think we all want to know more about just what that reality is. 

I understand that the lithium AA cells and the lithium CR123 cells are both lithium. Is that all I need to know and should I asume that these are apples compared to apples? If lithium primaries deserve any stereotype in regards to safety issues, so be it. If certain applications such as multiples in series deserve stereotyping in caution or considered risk, so be it. 

You have demonstrated to me that I do not want to use mismatched cells!! You had to go out of your way to provide these mismatched cells by inentionally depleting one. Well we have been told and now shown that this is simply a no no! My larger concern is the suspicion that one may think they are using equally matched cells but may not be doing so. I state this because not all fresh cells measure at 100%. Is it possible that a weak cell fresh from the box could be used in a light and that after some use and due to a differential tendency in discharge, the weak cell gets even weaker, relatively speaking, to the point an event or venting could occurr? SOme of us have equipment for measuring the battery's state of charge to a reasonable level. We can go to the additional trouble and caution of measuring the cells prior to use. In the general population and use of these cells though, that is not viable. If it comes to be considered as a recommended or worse, necessary precaution, then we are dealing with a strong potential for disaster if these lights are flowing into the general population where folks are making false assumptions of intrinsic safety.

I can only ask questions and I don't understand the chemistry or physics well enough to even know if my questions even make sense! 

I will move back to the side lines and keep the air clear for you and others who have an idea of what is going on. 

Like it or not, I consider you a warrior and crusader and I applaud you your efforts and insight on these batteries. 

I agree that an ounce of prevention is better than a pound of cure. If an ounce of prevention is the ideal dose, a pound of prevention may actually be detrimental. You be the Dr. so please consider the dose but do what you need to do!


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## MattK (Jul 10, 2006)

NewBie said:


> Sigh.
> 
> 
> I've taken Streamlight, Energizer, Panasonic, Browning, SureFire cells apart, and these that I have, all say Made in USA, and I've actually disassembled them, and they even have the same Anode and Cathode crimping marks (same machine) internally within the cell itself. The rest of the internal construction is identical.
> ...



Why the sigh? It sounds like your disections match my initial statement and don't necessarily contradict the second statement.

Please remember that many of the BRANDS have more than 1 production facility and I'm willing to bet some of the BRANDS buy from different MANUFACTURERS at times. 

As far as I know only Panasonic actually still has US manufacturing facilities for CR123A cells.

BatteryStations cells are undoubtedly being manufactured at one of the larger Chinese factories - I could hazard a guess about which but I won't - so it's not surprising that their contruction is different.

I'll have to take some pics of the Sanyo/Energizer OEM cases/cells together so you can see what I mean. The Energizers are marked made in the USA, the Sanyo's are Japan.


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## NewBie (Jul 26, 2006)

MattK said:


> Why the sigh? It sounds like your disections match my initial statement and don't necessarily contradict the second statement.
> 
> Please remember that many of the BRANDS have more than 1 production facility and I'm willing to bet some of the BRANDS buy from different MANUFACTURERS at times.
> 
> ...




I've got some Sanyo 123s here that are marked as Made in China. I believe they are actually GP Batteries, but I am not certain. Why?


Sanyo has established a joint venture company in China with GP Batteries International Ltd., largest consumer battery manufacturer group in China, based in Singapore. The new company has been named "Ningbo GP SANYO Energy Co., Ltd."

Located in NINGBO HI-TECH Park in Ningbo city, Zhejiang province, the joint venture will manufacture and sell manganese dioxide primary lithium batteries. SANYO will hold 51% of the shares and GP 49%. Production is to start this month.

Production lines of *manganese dioxide primary lithium batteries* for camera use will be transferred from SANYO Energy Tottori Co., Ltd., a subsidiary of SANYO.

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3864/is_200409/ai_n9455849


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## MattK (Jul 26, 2006)

NewBie said:


> ...Located in NINGBO HI-TECH Park in Ningbo city, Zhejiang province, the joint venture will manufacture and sell manganese dioxide primary lithium batteries. SANYO will hold 51% of the shares and GP 49%. Production is to start this month....



I believe this plant burned down in December or January. Yes - I know you're having a laugh now. 

My bulk and retail pack Sanyo's are all marked Made in Japan.


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## marxs (Jul 26, 2006)

this is kinda freaky..what about sanyo CR123's? i have a couple at home actually


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## NewBie (Jul 26, 2006)

My Sanyo CR123 cells are marked made in China. And they are new.


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## EngrPaul (Oct 5, 2006)

I wonder if part of the problem is that CR123's were designed with photo applications in mind (pulse, one cell) instead of flashlight use (continuous, two cells). If you download energizer's datasheet for 123, you'll see what I mean.


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## flame2000 (Oct 5, 2006)

* CR123A =



*

Freaky to know that I've been carrying one in my pocket beside my balls everyday! :lolsign:


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## NewBie (Oct 5, 2006)

flame2000 said:


> *
> 
> Freaky to know that I've been carrying one in my pocket beside my balls everyday! :lolsign:*


*

There is more information, and some videos of events happening here Flame2000:
http://candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=124776&page=5&pp=40*


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## flame2000 (Oct 5, 2006)

NewBie said:


> There is more information, and some videos of events happening here Flame2000:
> http://candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=124776&page=5&pp=40


 
Thanks pal!


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## bigfoot (Oct 5, 2006)

A big thank you NeWbie for the testing and information. Before reading this thread and other related threads recently, I didn't give lithium batteries a second thought as far as safety.

Now my lithium cells (whether they be 123, AA, or AAA) are all kept protected from the elements. I even went so far as to buy a Surefire SC3 spares carrier to keep extra batteries protected while in my bag. I'll be sure not to mix any cells, as sometimes happens with alkalines. I'll be more cautious of that, too. And my box of spare Surefire batteries is now kept in a waterproof container. Lastly, I'll have more peace of mind using my E1L versus my G2, based on one having a single cell and the other having two.

I imagine the number of incidents with lithiums is probably a tiny fraction overall compared to the number of people NOT having incidents. Still, no one wants to be "a statistic."

I find it interesting that, to my knowledge, no battery maker or flashlight manufacturer has let the general public know of potential safety concerns.

Thanks again for the in-depth information and testing. It may not be 110% scientific, but that doesn't matter to me. It's the real-world application, not just what happens in a lab, that's important.

As you pointed out, an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.


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## EngrPaul (Oct 5, 2006)

NewBie said:


> http://candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=124776&page=5&pp=40


 
:huh2: I did not see any videos of Flame2000's balls there.


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## flame2000 (Oct 5, 2006)

EngrPaul said:


> :huh2: I did not see any videos of Flame2000's balls there.


 
  ......it's still dangling btw my legs....ding dong!


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## hotwls13 (Oct 5, 2006)

bigfoot said:


> I find it interesting that, to my knowledge, no battery maker or flashlight manufacturer has let the general public know of potential safety concerns.


 
My thoughts exactly. I hope that people using these on a daily basis (Law Enforcement, Fire, Safety etc) have been informed of the possible dangers.

I came to this site trying to find a good place to buy 123 batteries for cheap, and I found that my cyclops may be a frickin bomb.

How do we get the word out to news/media so people can be warned?


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## benighted (Oct 5, 2006)

hotwls13 said:


> How do we get the word out to news/media so people can be warned?



I don't think it is in our best interest to make everyone fear flashlights. It would get blown out of proportion just like everything else the news does.


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## hotwls13 (Oct 5, 2006)

benighted said:


> I don't think it is in our best interest to make everyone fear flashlights. It would get blown out of proportion just like everything else the news does.


 
:huh2: I'm not saying make everyone fear flashlights, just educate people about the ones that may randomly explode. I'm just saying the general public has no clue (including me until I came to this site) the "potential" hazard that these create. 

Who in the general public is going to have the means to measure if there 123 battery is at 20% or less? Or are going to drill a small hole in there new flashlight so that it vents? Or are even going to think twice about using 2 different brands of batteries. That last one may be a no brainer in this forum, but with my standard AA, D cell batteries, I could care less if they are the same brand. 

I bought 6 of the Cyclops flashlights as gifts last year, and I have informed those people to remove and dispose of the batteries until further notice. That's just a few people, but they wouldn't have known had I not stumbled upon the info here.


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## flame2000 (Oct 6, 2006)

hotwls13 said:


> Who in the general public is going to have the means to measure if there 123 battery is at 20% or less? Or are going to drill a small hole in there new flashlight so that it vents? Or are even going to think twice about using 2 different brands of batteries.


 
I agreed with that......most general folks will just get a pair of CR123 batt from the convenience store, chuck them into their flashlights without checking. And if one of them is at 20% or less, then it like a freaking time bomb waiting to explode! You can't blame them for this, cos they don't even know that it's dangerous to have mismatched cell.


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## yozza01 (Feb 12, 2007)

I have also had a C123A battery explode in a cheaper flash light. It was Superfire inport from Hon Kong. It came with its own batteries four of each. Yep I know not a decent flash light, but it saves a good one getting lost or damaged at work (Police officer in UK) The force of the blast blew off the rubber cap from the on/off switch. 

I have pictures if anyone can tell me how to pur them on the forum?


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## Chronos (Feb 12, 2007)

yozza01, please dispose of the light and all the other pieces soon. You don't want to be exposed to any of those chemicals. I also had a light explode...

Surf to an online image site such as imageshack.us Upload your pics there, then copy and paste the links into your post. I typically use the "thumbnail for forums (1)" for my posts. 

Hope that helps!


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## zipplet (Feb 13, 2007)

For now I'm going to stick to single cell CR123A applications. I have a P1D-CE I've been using happily since I got it with no problems at all.

I think it boils down to how much risk you want to take. If you have a large house, and safe places you can store your multi-cell lights then the risk may be worth taking. On the other hand, if you live with your parents, you have one room to yourself and it has so much stuff in it that any kind of small fire would quickly become an uncontrollable catastrophe, you may be better sticking with single cell lights just to be on the safe side.

Oh, a tip: NEVER use Li-AA's in a light that exposes the bare bottom of a bulb to the positive battery tip. I've had one of those lights (it was a cheap 2xAA incandescent thing) with alkalines in it - it got dropped and suddenly got VERY hot because the bottom of the bulb was pushed in, so the positive battery tip made contact with the can (which was connected to the negative side of the batteries...)


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## arty (Feb 13, 2007)

I have purchased a few flashlights with defective batteries in them. A Nuwai 352L came with dented, partially depleted cells, and an Inova X5 had depleted cells in it.

I now check all batteries when I get them and right before putting them in lights. It is not unusual to get 60% cells (2 Rayovac CR2s out of 6), or even worse. I have had multiple partially depleted Energizers (2) in a purchase of 10. 
I got some Energizers that tested 100% when new, but two were 60% after a couple of weeks in storage.
The Surefires and Duracells that I have bought have all been 100% on my ZTS tester....so far.


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## 65535 (Feb 13, 2007)

The only batteries that I have vented were MINH's on 6 pack of series 3300 GP sub-C cells vented in my pocket when some were shorted on an RC controller antenna in my pocket (ironic thing is I moved the antenna from one pocket to the other so when I grabbed the battery and put it in my pocket I wouldn't put it in the same pocket as my antenna, well I remembered that my antenna was in the pocket on my right so I threw the pack in my left pocket, where I had moved the antenna anticipating were I would throw the pack, well half way to school I hear a hissing and My pocket is warm I grab the pack by the pigtail on the plug and shlep it into some grass and go to school, another different battery pack ended up getting crushed and a cell internally shorted.)
I just hope I don't have any problems with my U2 hopefully the LVD (low voltage cutoff) will kick in before any 1 cell is too low. (with 1 full and 1 drained cell the light strobes rapidly on higher levels), batteries when taken care of properly are pretty good to have. So moral of the story, don't abuse your cells and treat them like everyone says.


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## cutlerylover (Feb 13, 2007)

This is why I agve up on CR123's all together, for now anyway...Too many stories like this one make me paranoid...So I just don't use them...I am fine with my AA and AAA lights as well as my bigger C and D lights...Of course I am missing out on some great lights!!!! Like almost all of the surefires avaliable...not to mentions hundreds of other great lights!!!!!!!!For the most part these batteries give you good runtimes and lots of power in a small package, and for now I don't need the small package so its not worth the risk to me...I am just too paranoid to use them, even single cell ligths that use 1 CR123...I know the chances of me having a problem are slim to none, but I just don't like the uneasy feelign of will this happen to me...you know...So maybe one day I will get over it, but for now my luck is no good and I don't like the uncertaintly of it all...Thats just my thoughts aloud...


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## arty (Feb 13, 2007)

I just checked over my CR123 batteries - Surefire, Energizer and Duracell - all are made in the U.S.

The CR2s are all made in Japan - The brands include Maxell, Duracell and Rayovac.


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## AndyTiedye (Feb 13, 2007)

All my Cree and Seoul 2x123 lights work fine with a single protected AW 17670.
Better runtime and safer. Guilt-free lumens too!


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## MikeSalt (Feb 13, 2007)

Whoa Whoa Whoa! Why all the fuss? Panasonic guarantee their batteries, and will refund or replace any item damaged by them...

http://www.panasonic-batteries.com/site/Europe/English/content/index.asp?id=46

You will be sorted. 

And what's this about Panasonic being lower quality? Panasonic, Duracell and Energizer 123s are the SAME BATTERY, in different packaging. So it makes no odds.

I still am cautious of all lithiums though, so it's single cell all the way for me, with a Fenix P1D-CE!


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## RonM (Feb 13, 2007)

MikeSalt said:


> Whoa Whoa Whoa! Why all the fuss? Panasonic guarantee their batteries, and will refund or replace any item damaged by them...



The fuss is over the danger of explosion, fire, injury, etc. Panasonic (or other companies) may replace the flashlight, but I don't think they'll cover any collateral damage.

I'm aware of the issue and will practice "safe battery" when using 123s, but you know this problem is just a lawsuit waiting to happen.


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## Cribbage (Feb 13, 2007)

It seems to me, after reading through this thread a few times, that as long as we don't mix brands, and keep cells paired (or tri-ed), there should be any worry about CR123s sitting on a shelf just suddenly exploding.

Remember, photographers have been using these batteries for years in high-drain devices.

To worry that you are "carring a bomb", or worry about the cells you have in reserve suddenly bursting into flames, is akin to worrying that the gun in my holster is going to jump out all by itself and start blasting away.

As long as we are careful, there shouldn't be any problems. I would lay a dollar to a donut that all the unintended violent ventings violated one or more of these rules.

Knowing a little bit about corporate litigation, I can guarantee you that there is no conspiracy about CR123 cells. If there were a safety hazard that warranted some action, we would hear about it.

Newbie does fantastic research; and is a huge asset here. But along with research data, we have to combine real-world logic to properly determine if something is a "ticking time bomb".


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