# Help me Understand Why SureFire are so Expensive



## xcel730 (Mar 26, 2008)

Hello all,

Before I start, I just want to say that I am not bashing SureFire flashlights in any way. I'm new to this whole new flashlight world, and I currently don't own any SF, so I'm not even eligible to bash them. I just have an insatiable curiosity.

If someone could explain to me why SF flashlights are much more expensive than the competitors, even if "on paper" their performance seem to be worst. An example is the SF E2L model with 3/80 lumens cost about $129, while Fenix P3D Premium Q5 with 200 lumens cost about $68. I understand that the lumen rating from SF is from out the front while many other flashlight manufacturers lumen rating is from the emitter, and I understand that SF flashlights are built better, but does that factors in for twice the price? Is it simply because they do a darn good marketing job? Is it because of status symbol for those who own one? Again, if the reason is purely because of status symbol, I'm fine with that too. I, myself, own a couple of luxury watches that tells time no better than the watch that comes with your happy meal. Any insight would be helpful. Thanks guys!


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## swxb12 (Mar 26, 2008)

Well for starters, it costs more to make a light in the US. I won't go into the performance aspect, though.


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## greenstuffs (Mar 26, 2008)

One is cheaply made without any creative design in a lowtech shop and the other is created in one of the country's best cnc facilities.
Your eyes can't really tell the difference between 80 Surefire lumens than the 160 chinese lumens because one is out the front and the other is at the emitter without taking into consideration the loss at the reflector, lense, heat.
Other than that like high end knives you will have to handle them to understand the value.


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## Albinoni (Mar 26, 2008)

Lets not forget to add labour cost as well.


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## MrGman (Mar 26, 2008)

A: They believe in making a good profit on their product. They are in business to make money first and foremost. 

B: You are basically paying the extra for the lifetime no questions asked warranty. If your flashlight breaks they will keep replacing it no matter what (from what I understand). So built into the price of every flashlight is at least one replacement, because they want their customers to be happy with a great product and great service for a lifetime. Not a bad philosophy in one respect.


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## mossyoak (Mar 26, 2008)

well it used to be that they were at the bleeding edge of technology. they arent any more.

it used to be because of their unbeatable and unmatched warranty. now there are other companies with the same "unlimited lifetime" warranty.

now they are clinging to their reputation- one that is becoming tanished by bad led tints, and worse clickies


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## rourtex23 (Mar 26, 2008)

build quality is amazing i just got my first surefire L1 and i love it, very rugged and tough, no regrets at all about spending the extra cash


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## DaFABRICATA (Mar 26, 2008)

Welcome to CPF!

Lifetime warranty
Good Customer Service
Tough as Hell Products
Excellent R&D
Tons of interchangable parts
Quality machining
Supperb line-up, targeting different price ranges
Under rated Lumens
Fun to mod (but voids the guarantee)

I personally enjoy knowing I have a "Lifetime Guarantee" on my illumination tools. Most other tools I purchase also have this bonus and it helps make it easier to spend money on a product that I can count on to work and IF it does break, I'm not spending money to fix it. 

Buy one and you will understand....


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## roymail (Mar 26, 2008)

Since you don't have one, why not start with a 6P. You can get one off of ebay for $37.00 + $5 shipping. The P60 drop-in is incandescent and is pretty bright for what it is. Then you will have your choice of an endless array of P60 type drop-ins that you read so much about here on CPF.

The 6P is almost indestructable... a very high quality light. Surefire doesn't have to be expensive but some of their lights are a bit costly.


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## Federal LG (Mar 26, 2008)

*Labour cost!*

If they have a factory in China, or other country where the workers gain less money, probably the price will reduce. A lot.

Just see the difference between products made in USA, and the same product, of the same factory, but made in China, Malaysia, etc...


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## xcel730 (Mar 26, 2008)

roymail said:


> Since you don't have one, why not start with a 6P. You can get one off of ebay for $37.00 + $5 shipping. The P60 drop-in is incandescent and is pretty bright for what it is. Then you will have your choice of an endless array of P60 type drop-ins that you read so much about here on CPF.
> 
> The 6P is almost indestructable... a very high quality light. Surefire doesn't have to be expensive but some of their lights are a bit costly.


 
I was thinking along the same page. From what I gather, it's one of those, "you have to handle it and see for yourself" type. I personally value high quality tools. I already got at Fenix L2D and L0D and from what I see, they're really good flashlights ... much better than what the average joe are willing to spend. The L0D is my EDC, the L2D is for my car, and I still need at least one more for home. This is why I'm toying with the idea of getting a SF. Thanks for the response guys. Any additional feedbacks are welcome.


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## Drywolf (Mar 26, 2008)

I love my U2 Ultra it does everything I need a flashlight to do. I might buy the UB2 later this year, as 400 lumens is just to good to pass up. I won't be selling my U2 or buying the UA2. I think the U2 is almost perfect. 

:twothumbs:twothumbs


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## allburger (Mar 26, 2008)

It's all about supply and demand. People are willing to pay those prices for that product. What you are paying for with surefire is:
-The Surefire name
-Reliability
-Excellent Service

You gotta remember that customer service is not free by any stretch. On top of that, Surefire has to cover there fixed costs of day to day operations before they can think about making a profit on the light. In the fixed costs you have, research and development, marketing, and all the other stuff. And we can't forget that you gotta factor in transportation costs, warehousing costs, and all that other stuff. 

In the end, you have a great light at a price that a large market are willing to pay for.


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## kramer5150 (Mar 26, 2008)

... and they are made in California, not the cheapest state to set up mass production facilities. (Fountain valley is just down the 405 from Disneyland.) Environmental regulations, state taxes, health care benefits, electricity/utilities, gasoline prices, business/licensing fees... just a few just off the top of my head. I am not sure if they are a union shop, but either way they will pay a premium for machinists and tool operators in this state. Either your business pays union dues or you compensate your work force enough to offset the desire for them to join a union. I am not sure what minimum wage is in california... but I'm sure its better than most other states in the US.

Of course supply-demand rules the game. They aren't going to charge anything less than what the market will pay.

Tactical-weapon mount flashlights are a low volume / niche market product. So the only way to offset the cost of business is a high dollar unit price.

Personally I don't think the 6P is very expensive... when you consider the fact that it will last a lifetime and LED drop ins are getting cheaper all the time. I use my light at work. I don't want to deal with shoddy technical support. When/if my light does down I want to speak to someone in english who can overnight parts to me from ~300 miles away. Thats why I pay the premium for SF. For the record I am Chinese, and have nothing personal against overseas made products. I use a chinese DX drop in, but in the event that fails, I have a P60 and some primaries on stand by.


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## stitch_paradox (Mar 26, 2008)

mossyoak said:


> well it used to be that they were at the bleeding edge of technology. they arent any more.
> 
> it used to be because of their unbeatable and unmatched warranty. now there are other companies with the same "unlimited lifetime" warranty.
> 
> now they are clinging to their reputation- one that is becoming tanished by bad led tints, and worse clickies



You can't judge a flashlight company by LED alone. I still think they still have the best Incans in the world. They have a great lineup of LED lights coming out this year. And regarding those _"unlimited lifetime" warranty _offered by other companies, you have to consider this: Usually they don't fix the light but just replace it instead. Why do they do this? Because it is easier to do and much cheaper in the long run. Their lights are mass produced with inexpensive materials and cheap labor, plus it's appealing to the costumers. Instead of getting a refurbished light they get a brand new light sounds great isn't it? Where as with Surefire, when a light is returned to be fixed, the company is paying a qualified technician to inspect the light, replace it with top quality materials, (military grade I must say) etc. All of these process are giving America jobs.


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## mossyoak (Mar 26, 2008)

stitch_paradox said:


> You can't judge a flashlight company by LED alone. I still think they still have the best Incans in the world. They have a great lineup of LED lights coming out this year.



I dont judge them by that alone. and ill be first in line for the T1A.


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## mossyoak (Mar 26, 2008)

kramer5150 said:


> Tactical-weapon mount flashlights are a low volume / niche market product. So the only way to offset the cost of business is a high dollar unit price.



I bet there are alot more weapon lights made than most of their other lights. just about every picture you see of a soldier over seas has a surefire on their weapon.


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## stitch_paradox (Mar 26, 2008)

mossyoak said:


> well it used to be that they were at the bleeding edge of technology. they arent any more.
> 
> it used to be because of their unbeatable and unmatched warranty. now there are other companies with the same "unlimited lifetime" warranty.
> 
> now they are clinging to their reputation- one that is becoming tanished by bad led tints, and worse clickies




You just did


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## asdalton (Mar 26, 2008)

It's a combination of quality, performance, warranty (which means something more when the company has been around for decades), and general brand reputation. But it comes down to people simply being willing, for whatever reasons, to pay Surefire prices. 

People are free to disagree and vote with their wallets, of course. I have many Surefire lights, but I never thought that the U2 was worth $270. That's why I bought mine for $190 used.


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## I came to the light... (Mar 26, 2008)

labor costs make a huge difference. but not SF's price difference - at least part of that is for the name. 

And if you want to know why you should pay extra money that isn't necessarily quality cost, there's really only one reason: the "feel" is so good it has amassed what some call an army here. build quality is excellent, but is equaled by several cheaper and brighter (lumens) companies. 

in terms of lumen ratings, people exagerate other companies' dishonesty. SF rates lumens out the front and very accurately. most other companies rate at the emitter, and some exaggerate far beyond that. But many others do not: Fenix's measurements tend to be only about 10-20% higher than actual output. To finish this, to compare real output between an E2L and P2D, take 80 lumens, advertised, for the SF, and 150 for the Fenix. The Fenix is still far brighter. 


Another possible reason for the overpricing is that SF is the only top-notch military supplier. Meaning, if you want a light designed to be used in combat, SF is the only company completely dedicated to that.


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## mossyoak (Mar 26, 2008)

the bottom line why surefires are so expensive is because they are made in the USA. 

their warranty isnt anything phenomenal
their product isnt anything unheard of

if you only knew how many diehard surefire users have crossed over because of me showing them a fenix product, you would laugh, and then cry. You should have been there at booth 24036. it was amazing. people were honestly awestruck, like hearing the beatles for the first time.


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## stitch_paradox (Mar 26, 2008)

Surefire is "expensive" because it is MADE IN AMERICA. And I'm DAMN proud of it. 

And why do I support them even though their are what they are? Because it is MADE IN AMERICA and I live in it.

Ok enough for that patriotic introduction. I just want to say that I appreciate Surefire and other real American companies that kept production here in the land. Especially now the economy is in a tough situation, I'm sure its hard for those companies to keep productions here. Outsourcing is a sure bet on money for most companies, but what suffers in the long run is the economy, thus affecting the people too. I appreciate Surefire because they give jobs to American people, helping to circulate the money here in the country. I know there are other nice, cheap lights form other companies, I actually own some of them. but when you are supporting local products your also supporting yourself in a sense. 

Also you should remember Surefire products are used by the government, federal, and local law enforcement agencies, so they should pass high qualification standards. They need to use high quality materials designed by real engineers and made by qualified technicians, now tell me if any other foreign company do that.


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## Albinoni (Mar 26, 2008)

MrGman said:


> A: They believe in making a good profit on their product. They are in business to make money first and foremost.
> 
> B: You are basically paying the extra for the lifetime no questions asked warranty. If your flashlight breaks they will keep replacing it no matter what (from what I understand). So built into the price of every flashlight is at least one replacement, because they want their customers to be happy with a great product and great service for a lifetime. Not a bad philosophy in one respect.



So does this lifetime warranty only apply to the States or International countries as well. I live in Australia and would be interesting to know what their warranty is over here.


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## stitch_paradox (Mar 26, 2008)

It amazes me how much mall ninjas are in these forum. Some buy lights just for the heck of it. No convictions and reservations at all. Some will buy it just because its cheap and its the brightest.


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## Albinoni (Mar 26, 2008)

mossyoak said:


> well it used to be that they were at the bleeding edge of technology. they arent any more.
> 
> it used to be because of their unbeatable and unmatched warranty. now there are other companies with the same "unlimited lifetime" warranty.
> 
> now they are clinging to their reputation- one that is becoming tanished by bad led tints, and worse clickies





mossyoak said:


> now they are clinging to their reputation- one that is becoming tanished by bad led tints, and worse clickies



So would you say there are Chinese/Asian torch light manufacturers out there than can give Surefire a run for their money but at a cheaper cost and just as good and also ones that provide a better tint and better tail clickie ?

And also when you say bad tint quality really doesnt this depend on the LED itself and not the torch.


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## mossyoak (Mar 26, 2008)

stitch_paradox said:


> Also you should remember Surefire products are used by the government, federal, and local law enforcement agencies, so they should pass high qualification standards. They need to use high quality materials designed by real engineers and made by qualified technicians, now tell me if any other foreign company do that.



Fenix are used by lots of soldiers deployed over seas as well, like my brother for instance. 

so what you are saying is that foreign companies dont use "real" engineers? then what do they use? goof balls playing around on microsoft paint? they seem to be doing a damn good job... and they dont have qualified technicians to put the lights together? who is putting them together? kids in sweat shops? well if so they are doing a damn good job to. And what do they make their lights out of? duct tape and coke cans? pretty sure they are made out of some pretty good stuff for all the hell ive put my lights through on SAR, so you lost me there to.


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## nanotech17 (Mar 26, 2008)

to me US made product is always big & tough.
the same goes to my Rexaire vacuum cleaner - 1 heaven of a vacuum cleaner.
The same goes to my SF & Novatac


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## stitch_paradox (Mar 26, 2008)

mossyoak said:


> Fenix are used by lots of soldiers deployed over seas as well, like my brother for instance.
> 
> so what you are saying is that foreign companies dont use "real" engineers? then what do they use? goof balls playing around on microsoft paint? they seem to be doing a damn good job... and they dont have qualified technicians to put the lights together? who is putting them together? kids in sweat shops? well if so they are doing a damn good job to. And what do they make their lights out of? duct tape and coke cans? pretty sure they are made out of some pretty good stuff for all the hell ive put my lights through on SAR, so you lost me there to.



Yes it is being used, but its not issued. And whats the percentage of your so called users? 5%? I can't find a right word, but I guess goof balls would do. With todays technology it's very easy to design anything with the computer. Heck I can design mine if I want, but that doesn't me an engineer right? Are you 100 percent sure there are no kids working on the factory? I'm sure there are. With a salary of less than $4 a day I think it's pretty safe to say that's it sort of like a sweat shop. And there are many levels of standard of aluminum, Coke cans and airplane body are both aluminum and yet they are not the same. Go ask your flashlight manufacturer what grade of aluminum do they use, then compare it with SF. Then talk to me.


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## mossyoak (Mar 26, 2008)

what do engineers know about flashlights? nothing.
you know who knows something about flashlights? people who have to use them everyday, fenix figured that out a long time ago and started listening to them for inspiration on what type of lights and how they wanted them made. its seems to be working quite well for fenix as they were one VERY popular booth at SHOT. 

i dont know what grade aluminium fenix uses but i doubt its tin foil.


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## fieldops (Mar 26, 2008)

Drywolf said:


> I might buy the UB2 later this year, as 400 lumens is just to good to pass up.
> :twothumbs:twothumbs



I'm with you. No way am I'm passing that one up


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## greenstuffs (Mar 26, 2008)

Most solders are not your operator that use all these high speed gear and the latest and the greatest, some are just simply cooks or mechanics, not all soldiers use Strider knives or Sebenzas, most of them use gerber or other cheap quality knives and they are not stabbing Al Qaeda terrorist with their knives but open MRE's and cutting Nylon cord Type III, Same way most soldiers don't use Surefire or other high speed Flashlight to shine into Terrorist, they probably just need a flashlight to take a leak at night and stuff like that. Soldiers are normal people just like my neighbour or the guy that lives down the street.

Now Surefire and Fenix claim that they use 6061 aluminum alloy and is very hard to prove it whether this is true or not. So is up to the end user to believe what they want. 

We can't claim whether fenix is using low pay child labor aka sweatshops as well people can claim surefire is using low pay mexican workers since fontana is only 45 min away from the Tijuana border. But i'm very sure that most people know the kind of labor surefire and fenix employs. 

However we do know who makes the better flashlight maker at the end of the day and this is what counts. 





stitch_paradox said:


> Yes it is being used, but its not issued. And whats the percentage of your so called users? 5%? I can't find a right word, but I guess goof balls would do. With todays technology it's very easy to design anything with the computer. Heck I can design mine if I want, but that doesn't me an engineer right? Are you 100 percent sure there are no kids working on the factory? I'm sure there are. With a salary of less than $4 a day I think it's pretty safe to say that's it sort of like a sweat shop. And there are many levels of standard of aluminum, Coke cans and airplane body are both aluminum and yet they are not the same. Go ask your flashlight manufacturer what grade of aluminum do they use, then compare it with SF. Then talk to me.


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## mossyoak (Mar 26, 2008)

stitch_paradox said:


> It amazes me how much mall ninjas are in these forum. Some buy lights just for the heck of it. No convictions and reservations at all. Some will buy it just because its cheap and its the brightest.



Did you just call me a Mall Ninja? people that know me on this forum know that im about as far from it as I could be. 
I dont buy lights just to buy lights. i buy them for a purpose, SAR, backpacking, caving, and stuff like that. 
I dont buy lights because they are cheap and bright, although that does help. as a matter of fact the two lights I have around me the most are both made in the USA, Hawaii actually.
i have convictions and reservations to, the best product for the intended purpose gets my money. and i look at it this way, when i buy a fenix light i know exactly where that money is going. Tucker,GA.


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## mossyoak (Mar 26, 2008)

fieldops said:


> I'm with you. No way am I'm passing that one up



Amen, to that. i cant wait for that surefire. it'll get my money, and a T1A.


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## stitch_paradox (Mar 26, 2008)

Mossyoak:
Engineers have nothing to do with flashlights? Are you kidding me? Maybe in China they don't, but I'm pretty much sure those that are involve in manufacturing American lights have engineering back grounds. 

I did not name anyone when I said the mall ninja phrase, If you perceived it to yourself that it was you then it's not my fault. I'm pretty sure your knowledgeable regarding this kind of things since you stated that you are a SAR. 
When you buy any thing, as in any thing, you money always goes to the manufacturer, although it benefits the seller, the bottom of the well is still the manufacturer. And when your manufacturer is in China your money goes to China. And my personal conviction is I try to avoid (although its so hard to avoid) "giving" my money to "someone" who is a threat to where my family is living. And sure they have good products I can't deny that, it's getting better actually, but I would still rather help a fellow man here to have job than someone abroad. Well, that only me. 

Greenstuff:
Did I say all and everyone of th soldiers here are using Surefires? I don't remember myself saying that. Some are even using Maglite incans. What I said is Surefire is the Standard General Issue, and not a Fenix. 

If you are implying that Surefire is paying low waged undocumented workers then I will strongly disagree. They are in a government contract, so I'm sure they are regularly checked by the feds. So I can proudly say that their workers are being paid by the right wages and given proper benefits, just like a real American company would.


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## adamlau (Mar 26, 2008)

stitch_paradox said:


> It amazes me how much mall ninjas are in these forum.


I am a 38% Mall Ninja. I did not know what the term meant, so looked it up and took this silly online test. And what kramer5150 said earlier - except that I do not use a DX LA  .


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## mossyoak (Mar 26, 2008)

i guarantee you that there are more mag-lites than surefires and fenixes in iraq combined. surefires arent issued, at least my best friend in the army and my brother who is a marine both didnt get one.


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## stitch_paradox (Mar 26, 2008)

mossyoak said:


> i guarantee you that there are more mag-lites than surefires and fenixes in iraq combined. surefires arent issued, at least my best friend in the army and my brother who is a marine both didnt get one.



If you ask for a flashlight they'll give you one. Cost cutting I guess.

By the way I have to admit, sometimes... I'm a mall ninja too, all of us are. :twothumbs


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## mossyoak (Mar 26, 2008)

Im 36 percent mall ninja, it must be my love for H&K.


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## Monocrom (Mar 26, 2008)

How amazing.... Another Surefire vs. Fenix thread that degraded horribly. 

Time for me to stand in the middle of the road, and get run over....

Call me crazy, I like both brands for very different reasons. Both have Pros and Cons. It's like fighting over two good-looking women who are HOT, but for different reasons. You guys fight, meanwhile; I'll be taking both of the ladies out for drinks.


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## mossyoak (Mar 26, 2008)

Monocrom said:


> How amazing.... Another Surefire vs. Fenix thread that degraded horribly.
> 
> Time for me to stand in the middle of the road, and get run over....
> 
> Call me crazy, I like both brands for very different reasons. Both have Pros and Cons. It's like fighting over two good-looking women who are HOT, but for different reasons. You guys fight, meanwhile; I'll be taking both of the ladies out for drinks.



i like both brands as well for different reasons. surefires incandescents are simply the best ever made. and ive never cried (much) over a lost fenix.


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## dmz (Mar 26, 2008)

This video on youtube might answer your question. The video gives you an idea of the amount of money SF spent in R&D and equipment.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Sw_uHNiywc


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## gallagho (Mar 26, 2008)

I own both a Surefire L2 and a Fenix P3D Q5.

If I threw both off the top of a 2 storey building I know which one I would
bet on still to be working, simple as that.

If the L2 was broken, I could send it back and probably get it a replacement... Bonus!

Owen


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## Fooboy (Mar 26, 2008)

mossyoak said:


> i guarantee you that there are more mag-lites than surefires and fenixes in iraq combined. surefires arent issued, at least my best friend in the army and my brother who is a marine both didnt get one.


 
Just don't buy dogfood or childrens toys from China ...


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## Bunk3r (Mar 26, 2008)

Albinoni said:


> And also when you say bad tint quality really doesnt this depend on the LED itself and not the torch.


yes but its the company that make the light who decide which LED to put in!


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## Jay R (Mar 26, 2008)

As an ‘unbiased’ opinion, being neither an American nor Chinese, I suggest that Surefires are expensive for three main reasons. They are made in the US with its higher production costs. They are of good quality though I wouldn’t say exceptional as they are, after all, production line produced and not hand finished or anything. My M3 for example has a different shade colouring on the tailcap and a bit of swarf in the reflector that refuses to come out. And finally, because Americans are willing to pay a premium for a US made product in support of their own economy. Personally, I think that they are somewhat overpriced but if they can sell them for that price, why shouldn’t they. 
 As for Surefire vs. Asian made, there isn’t really a main contender in the Asian market yet. I would suspect that if an Asian manufacturer decided to start making high quality, military spec lights along the same lines as Surefire they would be able to knock them out, perhaps not at Fenix prices, but certainly less than Surefire ones. They then may give Surefire a run for their money if they sorted out their worldwide forces marketing. Remember that Surefires aren’t widely known or used outside the US and a non-US purchaser won’t have the sense of patriotism to US made products. 

 And before people start putting in posts saying that Surefires are known worldwide, no they aren’t. You walk up to a policeman or soldier in India, France, Russia, or any of the other 200 odd countries that aren’t America and 99 times out of 100 they won’t know the brand.


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## Mercaptan (Mar 26, 2008)

greenstuffs said:


> Most solders are not your operator that use all these high speed gear and the latest and the greatest, some are just simply cooks or mechanics, not all soldiers use Strider knives or Sebenzas, most of them use gerber or other cheap quality knives and they are not stabbing Al Qaeda terrorist with their knives but open MRE's and cutting Nylon cord Type III,



Hey, I like my Gerber 06 Automatic - I will admit, most of Gerber's stuff under 30 dollars is complete crap though.

And to the OP - Surefire just works, and if it doesn't you can get replacements to make it work. Forever.


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## BabyDoc (Mar 26, 2008)

Not all SureFire's are all that expensive. As already mentioned, the 6p comes to mind. Unless you own a SureFire, I don't think you can appreciate its quality. You actually can feel the quality as well as see it! The workmanship, finish, everything about it says you are holding something special. These are lights that are meant to be used, even abused. They do hold up, or SureFire backs them up, forever! If you look at a SureFire catalog over the years, many lights have remained in their arsenal and have become classics. Many of their lights are upgradable, so they don't become obsolete. That's not true of most other manufactured lights. SureFire doesn't just change designs for the sake of change or just to keep up with the gimicky Chinese makers who try to give you everything in a single package. Each SureFire is designed with a special user in mind, many of whom are professional users. Each new design costs money.

Look at Fenix. They are great lights, but most of their designs are internally very similar. The T1 and T10 are basically the same; so are the L2D, P1D, the P2D, etc with very similar light engines; just different bodies and power supplies. SureFire has a greater variety of lights for different needs, including regulated incadescent/LED combinations like the A2 (a real classic), as well as big power house lights for specialized professional needs.

Still, if you can't appreciate the quality of a SureFire, or are just an occasional user, I wouldn't waste the money on SureFire. There are plenty of other lights out there, while not lifetime investments, will do the job very well, too.


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## generic808 (Mar 26, 2008)

I don't think anyone should judge Surefire by what they hear or read. Until you actually handle a SF for yourself, you will always think "it's so expensive". But when you actually touch it and use it for yourself, you'll understand the quality of their units. SF is top notch in all areas: reliablity, durability, lifetimee no-hassle warranty, and the best customer service I've ever dealt with. All these things factor into the final price, which some may think is too much, but I believe it's worth every single penny.


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## scott.cr (Mar 26, 2008)

Research and development. Surefire develops the latest "cutting edge" lights, and then the Chinese copy them to make cheaper lights.

I work for a U.S. manufacturing company, and when we develop a new product, roughly 70% of what the customer pays for is taken by R&D. Our product will be in the field for maybe six months before they're copied overseas.

Some people will say Surefire isn't cutting edge, I can run out right now and build a light using more modern components. This may be true, but the home builder doesn't have to worry about 100,000 lights dying due to the same component having a latent defect, and 100,000 angry customers returning their lights all at once.

Cheap China lights, if 100,000 go bad all at once, they don't care because they can't back up the product. They'll just switch the label and keep selling the same defective product.


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## xcel730 (Mar 26, 2008)

Sorry guys. I didn't know with my starting this thread would create such hostility. Although I didn't intend to directly compare SureFires with Fenixes, I guess from re-reading from my initial posting I did do it. My apologies. The initial intention of this post was to gain a better understanding of the economics of SureFire prices. I know there are diehard SureFire fans out there as well as Fenixes and other brands, but that's like arguing about which sport team you think it's better ... it's fun to debate about until it leads to argument. Anyway, from what I gathered is ...

(1) USA made products are higher than foreign imports - Me coming from the knife collecting world certainly understand that

(2) Excellect quality and good customer service - whether it's perceived or actual quality, you'll have to determine yourself by handling one. 

(3) Good marketing and brand management ... and product placement on TV/Movies. 

(4) Mall ninjas shopping - I'm in the 37 percentile. I think all of us have some mall ninja in us ... or else we won't even be on this forum. I actually haven't reached the point where I would collect flashlights, I buy them for emergencies and actually using them when i'm traveling, at home or car. I know I dont' need a flashlight with lumens rating that could cause sunburns, but it's nice to know that if I wanted to, I could trick my neighbors by making them think it's morning and they're late for work. I still remember the days where Maglites were the best flashlights out there (or at least from my perspective).

I may have left a few here and there, but you get the point. I almost pulled the trigger last night and went to buy the E2L (with 3/60 lumens) for $129 from batteryjunction (the 8 free batteries really lured me in). I'm going to wait until I do more research. I veered off from SureFires in the past because of their low runtime of about 60 - 75 mimutes. But the new E2L seems pretty promising with 11 hours on 60 lumens. Somebody w


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## gary3911 (Mar 26, 2008)

Surefire's are so expensive because they have to pay for all the cost of the champagne and condoms they use at their pool parties while they sit back and read internet forums of people going over and over and over and over and over the same ground.


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## skyline_man (Mar 26, 2008)

Think of it this way. A Surefire light is like a European sports car - Porsche, Ferrari, Lamborghini etc. And a good quality China made light is like a Corvette Z06 - it beats most Euro made cars at a fraction of the price.
It all comes down to brand name and marketing. It is a well known fact that companies that market their products well always do better than companies that don't. Human always wants the best, and if you happen to advertise your product as the best - even if it's not, people will eventually end up believing you. 

Don't believe me? Watch Penn and Teller's "Bullshit " show, episode called "the Best" on Youtube and you'll know what i mean.


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## xcel730 (Mar 26, 2008)

skyline_man said:


> Think of it this way. A Surefire light is like a European sports car - Porsche, Ferrari, Lamborghini etc. And a good quality China made light is like a Corvette Z06 - it beats most Euro made cars at a fraction of the price.
> It all comes down to brand name and marketing. It is a well known fact that companies that market their products well always do better than companies that don't. Human always wants the best, and if you happen to advertise your product as the best - even if it's not, people will eventually end up believing you.
> 
> Don't believe me? Watch Penn and Teller's "Bullshit " show, episode called "the Best" on Youtube and you'll know what i mean.


 
I agree with you. There are many products out there that are classified as the best to most people because of superb marketing. A lot of people consider Rolex makes best watch, Sony makes the best electronics, Bose makes the best speakers, Benchmade makes the best knives, Burton makes the best snowboards, etc ... but are they really the best? They do make great products, they do make us feel good for owning it, but if we go down to the basics, are they really the best? Some may say "yes" based on the perceived qualities, and some say "no". I don't think there's such thing as "the best" ... with flashlight and everything else, it's always about some sort of trade off (i.e., more runtime and lumens but heavier flashlights).


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## Monocrom (Mar 26, 2008)

Jay R said:


> And before people start putting in posts saying that Surefires are known worldwide, no they aren’t. You walk up to a policeman or soldier in India, France, Russia, or any of the other 200 odd countries that aren’t America and 99 times out of 100 they won’t know the brand.


 
It's no secret that the Asian market makes up a huge percentage of Surefire's Private Purchase, customer base. Even more so than CPF. Surefire actually listens to feedback from _that _customer base. 

As Al once posted.... You've got Americans buying cheap lights from China, and Asians buying up lights from Surefire.


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## Outdoors Fanatic (Mar 26, 2008)

The same reason as to why a *Busse* is more expensive than your average Wal*Mart chinese-made camping knife. I mean, they are all knives right?
:devil:


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## Fooboy (Mar 26, 2008)

skyline_man said:


> Think of it this way. A Surefire light is like a European sports car - Porsche, Ferrari, Lamborghini etc. And a good quality China made light is like a Corvette Z06 - it beats most Euro made cars at a fraction of the price.
> It all comes down to brand name and marketing. It is a well known fact that companies that market their products well always do better than companies that don't. Human always wants the best, and if you happen to advertise your product as the best - even if it's not, people will eventually end up believing you.
> 
> Don't believe me? Watch Penn and Teller's "Bullshit " show, episode called "the Best" on Youtube and you'll know what i mean.


 
I bet the headlights on a porshe, ferarri or lamborghini would still work after hitting an animal, say a kangaroo ... better than a corvette.


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## Monocrom (Mar 26, 2008)

xcel730 said:


> I agree with you. There are many products out there that are classified as the best to most people because of superb marketing. A lot of people consider Rolex makes best watch, Sony makes the best electronics, Bose makes the best speakers, Benchmade makes the best knives, Burton makes the best snowboards, etc ... but are they really the best? They do make great products, they do make us feel good for owning it, but if we go down to the basics, are they really the best? Some may say "yes" based on the perceived qualities, and some say "no". I don't think there's such thing as "the best" ... with flashlight and everything else, it's always about some sort of trade off (i.e., more runtime and lumens but heavier flashlights).


 
Intelligent folks with experience can tell the difference between actual quality vs. claimed quality. As a knife collector, I know that Benchmade builds _real _quality into their knives. Quality that easily beats what many custom knifemakers are capable of. (Obviously I'm not including the works of Master Knifemakers who have dedicated their lives to their craft). If Benchmade quality isn't the best, it's damn close to it.

ColdSteel's hype on the other hand is just that.... hype. Carbon V is not some super steel that will outperform 99% of the stuff made by custom knifemakers. Didn't stop that rip-off artist Lynn Thompson from advertising it as such. 

As far as Surefire goes, out of all the lights in my collection; my aluminum-bodied S.F. lights are going to far outlive me. Can't say the same for many of the other lights I own. Still, I can't stand much of Surefire's marketing practices.... especially when they start marketing some of their lights as self-defense tools for temporarily blinding an attacker with a burst of light. (Wonder if S.F. hired Lynn Thompson to do that aspect of their marketing). :green:

Surefire is like a Diva. When she's on stage, performing; it's the most beautiful thing in the world! When she's off the stage, you want to beat her to death because you can't stand her attitude. 

Example of attitude: 2003, Surefire jacks up the prices of all of their more expensive models; without offering any improvements to those models. (You think a 10x Dominator usually used to retail for $450??)

Like I said, love their lights. (Oh, especially my M6). :twothumbs

Hate their marketing!


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## easilyled (Mar 26, 2008)

Why is a Volkswagen more expensive than a Skoda?

The Skoda has the Volkswagen engine but doesn't have the
aesthetic appeal, the finishing touches and isn't as much fun to drive.


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## Monocrom (Mar 26, 2008)

easilyled said:


> .... The Skoda has the Volkswagen engine but doesn't have the
> aesthetic appeal, the finishing touches and isn't as much fun to drive.


 
I think you just answered your own question.


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## xcel730 (Mar 26, 2008)

Monocrom said:


> Intelligent folks with experience can tell the difference between actual quality vs. claimed quality. As a knife collector, I know that Benchmade builds _real _quality into their knives. Quality that easily beats what many custom knifemakers are capable of. (Obviously I'm not including the works of Master Knifemakers who have dedicated their lives to their craft). If Benchmade quality isn't the best, it's damn close to it.
> 
> ColdSteel's hype on the other hand is just that.... hype. Carbon V is not some super steel that will outperform 99% of the stuff made by custom knifemakers. Didn't stop that rip-off artist Lynn Thompson from advertising it as such.


 
I love Benchmade knives, for me, they're the best knives for what I need them for. I have knives that cost twice or even five times the price of an average blue class Benchmade, and I honestly can't tell the difference between the quality. The only difference, to me at least, between Benchmade and a custom knife is just that ... the custom knife gives you the ability to pick and choose what you want. Anyway, a little digression here.

I'm very tempted to get a SF E2L right now. It has an output of 3 lms low, 60 lms high, and pretty good 11 hr runtime on high (100 on low). I saw this same flashlight in a magazine a few years ago, but they only had 60 min runtime back then. I'm going to search in this forum about this flashlight. Anyone own one and want to share your insight?


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## Kiessling (Mar 26, 2008)

Guess you saw the SF L4 a few years ago. The E2L in the current iteration with the higher luminous flux a relatively recent, and the 2-brightness model is very recent, think from this month.
The L4 was the furst commercial Luxeon V flashlilght, hat 80 lumens flux, one hour runtime and got terribly hot. 
It was, however, the beginning of a new era. It is a legendary light. Jusrt make sure you don't touch the head after burning through a set of batteries :devil:

The L4 cannot match the efficiency of more recent lights. If it is not this exact beam profile you need for your application, I'd sugest a different light.

bernie


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## Centropolis (Mar 26, 2008)

I think it all comes down to your definition of “best”.

If best to you means the highest quality, made with the highest workmanship with the highest quality material, high quality customer service, and good warranty then SureFire comes pretty close.

HOWEVER, if your definition of best includes something like value for your money, or quality/dollar paid ratio….then you’re starting to bring in other makers.

You have to realize…..Fenix don’t make $140 LED flashlights or $400 incans like an M6. They are obviously targeted for other consumer markets.

As for why SureFire is so expensive? Well, quality, name……and American workers……

But I can tell you from my experiences with other products they were being made in Canada or the US, even IF they move their production to Asia…..they will NOT lower the price. An example would be Arcteryx jackets (if anybody is into high-end outdoor jackets would know Arcteryx), they used to make their 3-ply GoreTex XCR jackets (sells for $650) in Canada. Addidas bought them and then they moved most of their production to Asia…..that same jacket is now made in China and it still sells for $650.


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## BigD64 (Mar 26, 2008)

Surefire is still on the leading edge of technology. Just because they don't rush out everytime a new bin LED comes out to upgrade their lights doesn't mean that they are behind in research and developement. I would bet that their R&D is second to none.


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## Retinator (Mar 26, 2008)

Along with their warranty, R&D has to be a BIG factor in their pricing.

For others, it's easy to follow in the wake of the leader, and perhaps dodge some of the obstacles in the process.

Surefire has chosen to lead by cutting a path through on their own. Unique ideas such as the A2, Kroma and others have set them apart from making a stereotypical light.

Much of the 'exorborant' price goes right back into the R&D process that has brought us new toys such as the UA2 and others. As flashaholics, we should appreciate these oppertunities to be first hand to oggle such goods.

These aren't lights for most average people, but the average person wouldn't get our hobby at all.


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## mdork (Mar 26, 2008)

The new Nissan GT-R is faster than a 911 Turbo on the 'Ring but costs a LOT less. Why does the Porsche cost so much when it is slower? Because people are willing to pay. Is it better than the Nissan? Depends who's buying and how you measure value. 

You can't win the specs game, you just have to serve your customers. Based on what little I know, it appears Surefire serves their customers very well.


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## 270winchester (Mar 26, 2008)

To put it into perspective, a single cell dual level light using Cree LED from the Sandwiche Shop would costs 220+. the 135 dollar retail price of the L1 seems like a bargain.



mossyoak said:


> and i look at it this way, when i buy a fenix light i know exactly where that money is going. Tucker,GA.



nice try at justifying it. 

Then shopping in today's Walmart/Sams must be a darned good thing for the American economy because the money is going to Bentonville, AR.



this kind of thread comes up frequently and serves as a great tool to show the state of CPF.


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## GPB (Mar 26, 2008)

One of the nice aspects of a Surefire is that you can usually sell it for a good price. So..go buy one....and if you don't like it, you can unload it on the CPF marketplace or eBay for probably 90% of the full price.


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## Outdoors Fanatic (Mar 26, 2008)

mdork said:


> The new Nissan GT-R is faster than a 911 Turbo on the 'Ring but costs a LOT less. Why does the Porsche cost so much when it is slower? Because people are willing to pay. Is it better than the Nissan? Depends who's buying and how you measure value.
> 
> You can't win the specs game, you just have to serve your customers. Based on what little I know, it appears Surefire serves their customers very well.


Because when you buy a super sports car, you're not buying speed alone. Why even bother spending money on a GT-R if the only thing you care about is how fast the darn thing goes? Just tune a beaten up Civic and save some money.


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## xcel730 (Mar 26, 2008)

GPB said:


> One of the nice aspects of a Surefire is that you can usually sell it for a good price. So..go buy one....and if you don't like it, you can unload it on the CPF marketplace or eBay for probably 90% of the full price.


 
You just hit my sweet spot. I can't take this torment anymore. I just bought the E2L from batteryjunction. I have to see for myself what a SureFire flashlight is all about. If I don't like it, someone would reap the benefits of buying it at a discounted price ... at least I lose 10% as opposed to 25% when you drive a new car out the lot. I probably get more from selling it on ebay than returning it at batteryjunction since they charge 15% restocking fee for returns. Let's see how this goes ...


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## mdork (Mar 26, 2008)

Outdoors Fanatic said:


> Because when you buy a super sports car, you're not buying speed alone. Why even bother spending money on a GT-R if the only thing you care about is how fast the darn thing goes? Just tune a beaten up Civic and save some money.



Exactly my point. I just read page two and saw someone made the same analogy.

"Things" are worth whatever the market will bear and clearly there is a market for Surefire. Having said that, competition is GOOD for the consumer so even the guys who are blindly loyal to Surefire should appreciate companies like Fenix and others who try to compete.


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## tricker (Mar 26, 2008)

if you like fine watches i presume you know that mechanical watches keep time much worse than even the cheapest electronic quartz. A quartz watch loses or gains 1 second a week while a mechanical watch may lose 1 minute a week. Your buying craftmanship, and while i actually perfer fenix to each his own. I guess my 6p is tougher than my p1 but the p1 is with me alot more.I guess i'm not a patriotic consumer but neither is the greater percentage of america.


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## Pepper (Mar 26, 2008)

Yes, American made products are just better built and more reliable. For example, compare a Ford or Chevy to a Honda or Toyota


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## mdork (Mar 26, 2008)

tricker said:


> if you like fine watches i presume you know that mechanical watches keep time much worse than even the cheapest electronic quartz. A quartz watch loses or gains 1 second a week while a mechanical watch may lose 1 minute a week. Your buying craftmanship, and while i actually perfer fenix to each his own. I guess my 6p is tougher than my p1 but the p1 is with me alot more.I guess i'm not a patriotic consumer but neither is the greater percentage of america.



Buying something that is made in China doesn't make you unpatriotic IMO. If you own a computer, or a car, or athletic shoes or just about freaking anything, you're buying something from China. Using the internet? Yep, lots of help to China.

The flip side is that 50% of startups in Silicon Valley are founded by engineers who immigrated from India or China. The hard work and risks they take coming to the US generates a major contribution to the US economy. 

But I'm not an expert. Brad DeLong, however, is an expert (he is an economics professor at UC Berkeley). Here is an excerpt from a recent article:

"There is a good chance that China is now on the same path to world preeminence that America walked 130 years ago. Come 2047 and again in 2071 and in the years after 2075, America is going to need China. There is nothing more dangerous for America's future national security, nothing more destructive to America's future prosperity, than for Chinese schoolchildren to be taught in 2047 and 2071 and in the years after 2075 that America tried to keep the Chinese as poor as possible for as long as possible."

You can read a lot more on his website if you want some more data. Interesting and thought provoking stuff!

delong.typepad.com/sdj/2008/03/morning-coffe-2.html


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## Centropolis (Mar 26, 2008)

Pepper said:


> Yes, American made products are just better built and more reliable. For example, compare a Ford or Chevy to a Honda or Toyota



HAHA! Sorry.....had to laugh. Please note however, that a lot of Toyotas are made in Canada.


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## McGizmo (Mar 26, 2008)

270winchester said:


> .......
> this kind of thread comes up frequently and serves as a great tool to show the state of CPF.



Beyond CPF, I believe it shows the state of various economies both domestic to the users as well as an international economy; one that is tempering the globe which we all share.

The OP seeks understanding in the subject line but I wonder if it is more justification of a price, relative to a market, than understanding a price based on a particular companie's methods and means of doing business. I can guess at any number of expenses which SureFire incurs and suspect Fenix does not, for instance. Are these expenses necessary or justified? Is there room for change or adjustment of business and manufacturing practices? Is change necessary for the company? Has market acceptance declined?

As the global economy sinks in, it is a good thing that there are commodities with great bang for the buck because many of us will not have the levels of discretionary income we have become used to having. Some of us have the luxury and are willing to pay what others consider premium, for diversity and creation (as opposed to duplication). As trends move away from this and towards low cost solutions, many will not only loose such luxury but the means as well. :shrug:

It costs a lot more to build a highway that it does to traverse it. Provided we don't need a new highway, no need to concern ourselves with its expense or source of funding.

If we seek lower price and greater discount then it only tends to reason that we will ourselves produce and contribute at lower and greater discount, reflected in reduced earnings.

For those of us in the US, we are watching the sun set on our once great economy, IMHO. The new wonders in architecture, public works and large construction and engineering are happening else where in the world where economies are new and growing. Where new technology and industrial bases are flourishing. 

Perhaps SureFire is just a remnant of yesterday and will become a footnote of success, in history, of a bygone era replaced during global equalization. I suspect that there will always be those with more discretionary income and that they will, for any number of reasons, seek premium product. Who these people are and of what country they claim as theirs, only time will tell.


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## GPB (Mar 26, 2008)

Since we have already used and accepted the Car company analogy, I'm going to continue along that path. There was a time not so long ago when Datsun, Honda and Toyota made little noisy uncomfortable cars that were known for poor quality and good gas mileage. Detroit didnt' seem to think of them as threats and thought the status quo would be maintained. We are now at the point ( if it hasn't happened already ) where Toyota is outselling GM, Lexus ( a division of Toyota ) is ranked #1 in quality, Full Size Pickups and SUV's are the last bastion of Domestic Dominance and they are in danger of losing that battle as well. The newcomers entered the market and changed it to suit them. GM, Ford, Chrysler, and AMC all suffered because they didn't take the threat seriously. I am not saying Surefire is going to do the same thing....I am just saying that Fenix et al seem to be in a similar competitive position to Datsun ( Nissan ) and Toyota were in the late 60's/early 70's. It will be very interesting to see how Surefire responds and the results of their choice. I am willing to bet they do better than the Auto companies did.


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## da.gee (Mar 26, 2008)

The Chinese are kicking a$$ right now but as their economy and status grows so will the problems that we in the US have already faced or are still dealing with: industrial pollution and waste, social upheaval, class distinction, inflation/recession, etc. There is no free lunch. Industrialization and modernization bring with it a new set of problems. None of these problems are likely to be handled efficiently with the heavy handed force of the past particularly as more citizens come to the party. Perhaps they can learn from our mistakes. What happens to China when the US consumer is no longer able to support their growth?

As to the original question: beyond the design, mechanical function, variety of purpose lights, and the theoretical r & d behind them, you do get a liberal lifetime warranty. That might pay for itself should one of their lights fail. Regardless of price, most of their lights are just cool besides being functional.


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## sb_pete (Mar 26, 2008)

Wow, for once, somebody didn't get in early to warn the OP that this thread would get somewhat ugly and contentious in a hurry. It still did though.:mecry:

Really, you need to compare apples to apples. Comparing say, a Fenix P2D to a SF 6P is just not a real comparison. a 6P (likewise Pelican M6's BTW) is built like a tank (take apart the switch and compare it to a std Chinese reverse clicky to really see what I mean) and has a great name and a great warranty behind it. It is also almost 2 decade old technology. On the flip side, that is why its form factor is the THE standard for light assembly drop ins. It is also not that expensive and made for a different shape and form factor to a P2D.

SF does not really make any EDC lights along the lines of a P2D or LOD. Oh sure, they make the E1 series and all, but an LP D-Mini would be a better comparison there. Given the caveat that it's hard to find direct comparisons though, look at some of the stuff SF has on the bleeding edge. Yes the 6P is old tech, but it's bulletproof old tech that people still buy. The company has been around a long time and we should salute them for continuing to support and produce products like that. Fenix makes a great light. They are also a pretty new company and so it is not only not surprising but expected that they use the latest LED tech. It is true that for the last two years or so that has meant that you can really amaze the guys in the gun store who go with SF by reflex and don't watch the updates of the lighting industry with bated breath. MossyOak (who is pretty friggin laughably far from a mall ninja btw) has a point that SF has for the last two years (up until SHOT this year it seems) NOT been staying on top of the LED lumen wars.
That said, if you take apart a SF KROMA or U2, you will really start to see the difference. The intricate nature of those lights leaves innumerable points of failure. Frankly, these lights should not work in real world environments, yet SF and Paul Kim have made them to such a specification that they don't just work, but they work flawlessly in friggin mil-spec environments - being abused by soldiers in the worst environmental conditions and being counted on not just to work, but to never fail. They embody form over function. While many people comment on how great they feel, this is not an aesthetic thing, this is a byproduct of the overbuilding that goes into them, like the feel of how the doors used to close on Mercedes cars back in the 80's.

When you buy a SF, you are paying extra for that quality of machining and the expensive to operate the SoCal based shop that produces it. You are also paying for their warranty, their advertising budget, their R&D on new stuff, their continuing corporate expansion into new fields (like firearms suppressors, high quality knives, and tactical training), and YES, their name.

Alot of the new companies (LumaPower and Nightcore especially come to mind) are friggin AMAZING on customer service and have the personal touch of a small business run by people who care instead of "customer service professionals". Fenix is backed up by AMAZING dealers who have a strong presence on this forum and whose customer service is so good, that I have never had the need to even look into their corporate customer service.

What it comes down to in the end is what are you using the light for? I carry a P2D prem100 as my EDC. I use a nightcore DI on my belt at work (b/c I prefer the interface for that environment). I keep a Mag85 in my car. If I were in the sandbox though, I would still want an SF pointed out the front of my M16.




mossyoak said:


> i guarantee you that there are more mag-lites than surefires and fenixes in iraq combined. surefires arent issued, at least my best friend in the army and my brother who is a marine both didnt get one.


SF weapon lights are issued on a limited basis. I don't know who exactly gets them but I know that some frontline Marines (my buddy being one) do get them. Obviously there is also the SF factor with the high speed guys not only getting cool schwag but getting to submit specs for their own stuff. I think you are right on with the maglite comment though. Every GI and their mother probably has a mini-mag somewhere primarily because the issue anglehead sucks huevos and they sell minimags in the PX.


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## easilyled (Mar 26, 2008)

Monocrom said:


> I think you just answered your own question.



I was just attempting some subtlety. :nana:


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## yaesumofo (Mar 26, 2008)

If you were to do some research you would learn the SureFire flashlights are not expensive but that many other companies produce cheap (of very poor quality; flimsy) flashlights.

Yaesumofo




xcel730 said:


> Hello all,
> 
> Before I start, I just want to say that I am not bashing SureFire flashlights in any way. I'm new to this whole new flashlight world, and I currently don't own any SF, so I'm not even eligible to bash them. I just have an insatiable curiosity.
> 
> If someone could explain to me why SF flashlights are much more expensive than the competitors, even if "on paper" their performance seem to be worst. An example is the SF E2L model with 3/80 lumens cost about $129, while Fenix P3D Premium Q5 with 200 lumens cost about $68. I understand that the lumen rating from SF is from out the front while many other flashlight manufacturers lumen rating is from the emitter, and I understand that SF flashlights are built better, but does that factors in for twice the price? Is it simply because they do a darn good marketing job? Is it because of status symbol for those who own one? Again, if the reason is purely because of status symbol, I'm fine with that too. I, myself, own a couple of luxury watches that tells time no better than the watch that comes with your happy meal. Any insight would be helpful. Thanks guys!


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## Jarl (Mar 26, 2008)

I hardly think poor quality and flimsy are the words you'd use to describe a T1 or a TK10.

now, comparing a SF tactical light to a fenix EDC light... that'd be unfair, wouldn't it..... ¬¬


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## tricker (Mar 26, 2008)

Jarl said:


> I hardly think poor quality and flimsy are the words you'd use to describe a T1 or a TK10.
> 
> now, comparing a SF tactical light to a fenix EDC light... that'd be unfair, wouldn't it..... ¬¬



yeah, the fenix edc would win every time:thumbsup:


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## generic808 (Mar 26, 2008)

xcel730 said:


> You just hit my sweet spot. I can't take this torment anymore. I just bought the E2L from batteryjunction. I have to see for myself what a SureFire flashlight is all about. If I don't like it, someone would reap the benefits of buying it at a discounted price ... at least I lose 10% as opposed to 25% when you drive a new car out the lot. I probably get more from selling it on ebay than returning it at batteryjunction since they charge 15% restocking fee for returns. Let's see how this goes ...


 
Trust me, when you handle your new SF, you will NOT want to sell it off. But, if you for some odd reason decide to, someone of CPFMP will scoop it up right away. SF's will not depreciate anything like a new car. It will hold its value for many years to come.


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## stitch_paradox (Mar 26, 2008)

Pepper said:


> Yes, American made products are just better built and more reliable. For example, compare a Ford or Chevy to a Honda or Toyota



Most of the hondas and toyotas you are referring to are still made here, you do know that they have factories here right?


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## xcel730 (Mar 26, 2008)

generic808 said:


> Trust me, when you handle your new SF, you will NOT want to sell it off. But, if you for some odd reason decide to, someone of CPFMP will scoop it up right away. SF's will not depreciate anything like a new car. It will hold its value for many years to come.


 
I'm pretty sure it won't come down to it. I'm someone who appreciate quality of tools and gadgets. Going back to the watch or any timepiece analogy, a watch that comes with your happy meal is cheap (and comes with fries, burger, and soda :twothumbs), but it tells time better than my automatic watches. I have to adjust my watch least once a week (if I don't wear it for two days, it stops running). Despite the inconvenience, I still won't trade my watches in.

I'm new to this forum, so I didn't know that by bringing Fenix and Surefire within the same sentence, it would lead to some debates and arguments. This thread is pretty comical though ... it went from a simple question to find out why SureFire prices are so high to gain a better understanding of things that people don't see on the surface to lumen wars, watch comparisons, car comparisons, questionable patriotism, U.S. vs China, and Chinese taking over the world.

Anyway, I just received an email that my order has been shipped. I can't wait to test out my new toy in a few days.  Damn, coming to think of it, I was supposed to be in the market for two new flashlights (one for home and one for car), now I totally blew my budget.  The danger of joining any forums.


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## tompen (Mar 26, 2008)

XCEL Edited

Just read page three and saw you pulled the trigger on a E2L, but here is what I replied anyway, glad to see you did, think you will be very happy with it.

Yes I have the E2L, (Actually bought the KX2 Head and put it on my E2E, same light) and I also have 3 other SF's as you can see from my Signiture. I think the E2L is a very practical light for an outdoorsman with that kind of runtime. More than enough light, both throw and spill and not that large or heavy. And with the new long clip (I bought that from SF also) you can put a split ring in it and hang the light from a Lanyard, which is great.

I do use my single cell lights more for EDC where I don't need the long runtime and size is more important, but overall the E2L is a great compromise from SF IMHO.


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## tompen (Mar 26, 2008)

xcel730 said:


> You just hit my sweet spot. I can't take this torment anymore. I just bought the E2L from batteryjunction. I have to see for myself what a SureFire flashlight is all about. If I don't like it, someone would reap the benefits of buying it at a discounted price ... at least I lose 10% as opposed to 25% when you drive a new car out the lot. I probably get more from selling it on ebay than returning it at batteryjunction since they charge 15% restocking fee for returns. Let's see how this goes ...


Bet you don't return it!!


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## xcel730 (Mar 26, 2008)

tompen said:


> XCEL Edited
> 
> Just read page three and saw you pulled the trigger on a E2L, but here is what I replied anyway, glad to see you did, think you will be very happy with it.
> 
> ...


 
I like the overall design and size of the E2L, which is small enough to carry, and built like a tank. I won't be EDCing this flashlight, but I will carry it for travel and all my outdoor excursions, so I think it's enough light for me (how did I live back then during the EverReady 2C days?). I don't think I need a lot of throw and spill ... actually, I don't even know what throw and spill mean. :shrug: I'm sure I'll find it somewhere on this forum. I guess in layman's term, i will not be able to see very far (throw) and it doesn't have a wide beam (spill)? That's my guess.:thinking: Now let me find a place to hide.


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## greenstuffs (Mar 26, 2008)

Throw is taking your surefire and see how far you can toss it, pick it up and be amazed that it'll still be working. J/K :laughing:
Throw is just how far the beam reaches, and spill is the corona around the hotspot. 



xcel730 said:


> I like the overall design and size of the E2L, which is small enough to carry, and built like a tank. I won't be EDCing this flashlight, but I will carry it for travel and all my outdoor excursions, so I think it's enough light for me (how did I live back then during the EverReady 2C days?). I don't think I need a lot of throw and spill ... actually, I don't even know what throw and spill mean. :shrug: I'm sure I'll find it somewhere on this forum. I guess in layman's term, i will not be able to see very far (throw) and it doesn't have a wide beam (spill)? That's my guess.:thinking: Now let me find a place to hide.


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## jrv (Mar 26, 2008)

mossyoak said:


> well it used to be that they were at the bleeding edge of technology. they arent any more.
> 
> it used to be because of their unbeatable and unmatched warranty. now there are other companies with the same "unlimited lifetime" warranty.


One thing many get wrong is to assume that brightness in some way relates to sophistication or quality on the part of the flashlight maker. This is not true.

It is _easy_ to make a bright LED flashlight. Anyone can do it. Every new bottom-feeder that pops up DX produces a lot of light because that is the _easiest_ thing to do, not because it is hard or challenging.

The hard parts to do are more subtle: reliable operation after a hard fall on concrete, at thermal extremes, underwater, etc. You don't find these at DX pricing. One way to look at is to think of planning a two-day cave trip: what flashlights do you carry? Brightness will never come up as a consideration but the other points are important.

As for warranty: much depends on whether or not you think they warranty will be honored, or if the company even exists. NovaTac canceled the "unlimited" warranty on the EDS line so you have to ask how trustworthy the promises are.


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## tompen (Mar 26, 2008)

*The throw from this 60 lumen light will amaze you! If you were standing on the Goal line of a Football Field in total darkness, you would be able to identify a person on the other Goal line 100 yds away! and if you started walking toward that person with two people on each side of you, all of you would be able to see where you were placing your feet, (Spill).:candle: *


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## Illum (Mar 26, 2008)

tompen said:


> *The throw from this 60 lumen light will amaze you! If you were standing on the Goal line of a Football Field in total darkness, you would be able to identify a person on the other Goal line 100 yds away! *



100 yards is a bit....far

My only explanation why Surefire's are so expensive is that other lights are too cheap
We've been spoiled by fenix and what not and in comparison surefire's more expensive, but that doesn't mean they are expensive... not absolute, just relative:kiss:

makes me feel better thinking about it that way


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## apogee (Mar 26, 2008)

mossyoak said:


> Fenix are used by lots of soldiers deployed over seas as well, like my brother for instance.
> 
> so what you are saying is that foreign companies dont use "real" engineers? then what do they use? goof balls playing around on microsoft paint? they seem to be doing a damn good job... and they dont have qualified technicians to put the lights together? who is putting them together? kids in sweat shops? well if so they are doing a damn good job to. And what do they make their lights out of? duct tape and coke cans? pretty sure they are made out of some pretty good stuff for all the hell ive put my lights through on SAR, so you lost me there to.



Just curious - where does your attitude originate from?


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## Crenshaw (Mar 26, 2008)

i love both Fenix and surefire...i hope thats allowed... 

Crenshaw


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## mossyoak (Mar 26, 2008)

apogee said:


> Just curious - where does your attitude originate from?



My Mother i guess?


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## GarageBoy (Mar 26, 2008)

Now, I'm just waiting for the F&F on the Chinese stuff to match the SFs. (sorry, but I don't really trust the generic Chinese materials used in the ligh; though none of mine have failed yet, it'd be nice to know you're getting first class Al, fiberglass PCBs, lead free solders, etc)


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## mossyoak (Mar 26, 2008)

jrv said:


> One thing many get wrong is to assume that brightness in some way relates to sophistication or quality on the part of the flashlight maker. This is not true.
> 
> It is _easy_ to make a bright LED flashlight. Anyone can do it. Every new bottom-feeder that pops up DX produces a lot of light because that is the _easiest_ thing to do, not because it is hard or challenging.
> 
> ...



the most technologically advanced part of most led flashlights is the led, such as when the new seoul emitters came out there was a huge rush to put those into HDS lights, that was the only thing to really improve on that light. once it got the seoulmation those 2 year old HDS's were back at the bleeding edge of technology.

as for the warranty, you are right the warranty is only as good as the company backing it. fenix or surefire could go out of business tomorrow, unlikely, but ive heard of stranger things happening.


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## Zenster (Mar 26, 2008)

I would challenge the original premise that Surefire is expensive in the first place.
Sure, there are a LOT of Chinese ripoffs that are cheaper, but the good Chinese lights cost near as much as comparable Surefires.
My favorites are the single cells, among which I have an E1L/1, an E1L/2, E1B and L1. But it's hard to make a blanket statement that "Surefires are more expensive" when NONE of those Surefires cost as much as my single cell 120P (I know; not a Chinese light, but still...).
Then when you compare a Tiablo A9 to a SF 6PLED, you still can't say that the Surefire is comparably "expensive".

On top of the price similarities of the above (and other examples I could give), it's the Surefires that have that "solid" feel in the hand, and the "extra fine" attention to detail of machining and finish compared to other lights that are in the same price range.

So, Surefire lights expensive?... I don't think so.
I'm reasonably sure that others who have multiple Surefire lights will agree with the above while those who have no Surefires haven't had the chance to actually hold and use one will disagree.


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## 0dBm (Mar 26, 2008)

In their infant years, they introduced a product that was functionally superior to anything that was in the market. They had a marvelous advertising campaign that targeted a belwether company: Maglite. That product filled a niche that no other could. Those in true need paved the way by buying in droves. Those marginally interested then became captivated. Those already enamored were elevated from borderline flaccidity to an outright teenage testosterone frenzy. Their sales force grew and they had the reason for a price increase.

In their formative years, they introduced a dizzying groundswell of variations of the same theme that their machinists could nary differentiate between the E2, M2, C2, R2, E-I-E-I-O. Up went the prices again. Why, because their advertisement budget grew like the anecdotal bodybuilder on steriods. The juice (demand) was available so Surefire injected it in their P&Ls. Fueled by enough salivatory-dripping enthusiasm from CPF to fill a small oil tanker, they created the short-lived Surefire Discussion Board (SFDB). Yet another price increase ensued, but did not deter the demand, especially not from the CPF fanbase.

Now in its mature years, where they have considerably curtailed their self-indulgent product line in response to tepid sales of those items, they now begin to offer much more egalitarian products aimed specifically at the general public; a sector they have largely ignored in favor of the military market. Their reputation firmly established, their manufacturing processes finely-tuned, and their price structure at crisp premium levels as Dr. John Matthews carefully considers a corporate buy-out that will leave him bathing daily in a tub full of Dom Perignon, the military contracts from a $420-billion Middle East war seem endless and CPF threads on new every Surefire products number no less that 250 posts each, yet another price increase is likely.


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## tvodrd (Mar 26, 2008)

mossyoak said:


> what do engineers know about flashlights? nothing.
> you know who knows something about flashlights? people who have to use them everyday, fenix figured that out a long time ago and started listening to them for inspiration on what type of lights and how they wanted them made. its seems to be working quite well for fenix as they were one VERY popular booth at SHOT.
> 
> i dont know what grade aluminium fenix uses but i doubt its tin foil.



I've generated a couple stink lights here back when, and I'm an _engineer._ Having just read the entire thread, I raise the question of _finish._ I estimate 1% of the posters in this thread have a clue of what's involved in doing Alodine/Chem film on the ID of a light, and Type III anodize on the outside! It's nontrivial, and many O-rings die in the process. Any of the chicom lights have Alodine/chem film on the ID? But then. I tend to be a little anal in the lights I build and use.

Larry


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## greenstuffs (Mar 27, 2008)

Well i don't see any price increase in the last 4 yrs, all lights have remained at the same pricing, The M6 cost same now as 4 yrs ago when i bought it. If you take into account the inflation, the ever increasing cost of energy and raw materials Surefire have decreased it's price. Yet their service has been as good as usual and their products are as good as ever. Surefire does not uprade it's emitters every 4 month because the benefits are minimal. 

The L1 CREE cost the same as the first squared body L1, the U2 has very nice upgrades yet still costs the same as the good old U2 but with features that no one has ever dreamt of. The new ARC lights seem to cost $1000 but these are not for your typical backpacker but have a much better beam than the blueish korean HID manufacturers, Look at how much polarion costs? I had the pleasure to handle one and its worth the pricetag. 

There is nothing overpriced in the flashlight realm only expensive lights but they are worth it. If you look into the world of custom flashlights then is another step above the surefire lights. 




0dBm said:


> In their infant years, they introduced a product that was functionally superior to anything that was in the market. They had a marvelous advertising campaign that targeted a belwether company: Maglite. That product filled a niche that no other could. Those in true need paved the way by buying in droves. Those marginally interested then became captivated. Those already enamored were elevated from borderline flaccidity to an outright teenage testosterone frenzy. Their sales force grew and they had the reason for a price increase.
> 
> In their formative years, they introduced a dizzying groundswell of variations of the same theme that their machinists could nary differentiate between the E2, M2, C2, R2, E-I-E-I-O. Up went the prices again. Why, because their advertisement budget grew like the anecdotal bodybuilder on steriods. The juice (demand) was available so Surefire injected it in their P&Ls. Fueled by enough salivatory-dripping enthusiasm from CPF to fill a small oil tanker, they created the short-lived Surefire Discussion Board (SFDB). Yet another price increase ensued, but did not deter the demand, especially not from the CPF fanbase.
> 
> Now in its mature years, where they have considerably curtailed their self-indulgent product line in response to tepid sales of those items, they now begin to offer much more egalitarian products aimed specifically at the general public; a sector they have largely ignored in favor of the military market. Their reputation firmly established, their manufacturing processes finely-tuned, and their price structure at crisp premium levels as Dr. John Matthews carefully considers a corporate buy-out that will leave him bathing daily in a tub full of Dom Perignon, the military contracts from a $420-billion Middle East war seem endless and CPF threads on new every Surefire products number no less that 250 posts each, yet another price increase is likely.


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## Taboot (Mar 27, 2008)

Just buy yourself an M6, and a decent supply of CR123s and you'll see the value of Surefire lights. It's bright, it's cool, it's the best light you'll own and it's only $300-$400 depending on where you buy it. A bargain really for the best of something, IMO. 

I have a grunch of SF lights and one Fenix light (P3DQ5) and I like both brands. My M6 will be the last to go though if I ever had to have a fire sale.


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## 0dBm (Mar 27, 2008)

greenstuffs said:


> Well i don't see any price increase in the last 4 yrs...



 That's because what I wrote in this and every other thread in this BB as well as EDCF is largely rhetorical. Please see my sig line.


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## adamlau (Mar 27, 2008)

Taboot said:


> Just buy yourself an M6...


And an M2, M3 and M4. Stick with the Millennium series and enjoy :thumbsup: .


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## turbodog (Mar 27, 2008)

Surefire lights are higher priced because every light comes with a lifetime supply of clicky tailcaps. They aren't free you know.

I had an A2 that went through 3 brand new tailcaps before I got one that worked. And this wasn't the only SF light I have with a bad switch either...


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## Crenshaw (Mar 27, 2008)

turbodog said:


> Surefire lights are higher priced because every light comes with a lifetime supply of clicky tailcaps. They aren't free you know.
> 
> I had an A2 that went through 3 brand new tailcaps before I got one that worked. And this wasn't the only SF light I have with a bad switch either...



:laughing:

Crenshaw


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## LargePig (Mar 27, 2008)

There's a pretty good reason why SureFire are not so well known outside of the US, especially in the UK:

SureFire do not allow their US distributors to ship internationally.
This means that in the UK at least, you get the dollarpound syndrome from the authorised UK distributors/importers (USD 1=GBP 1).... 

On the surefire dot com US website, the U2 Ultra is USD 279.
So here in the UK I find the U2 Ultra for GBP 252.95 roughly equal to USD 500!

So, who of you would have been prepared to spend almost double on your SureFires? 

Fenix torches are the same price between US and UK.


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## Outdoors Fanatic (Mar 27, 2008)

LargePig said:


> There's a pretty good reason why SureFire are not so well known outside of the US, especially in the UK:
> 
> SureFire do not allow their US distributors to ship internationally.
> This means that in the UK at least, you get the dollarpound syndrome from the authorised UK distributors/importers (USD 1=GBP 1)....
> ...


SureFire is damn popular in a lot of Asiatic countries such as Japan, South Korea and Singapore. They even have contracts with Military and LEO agencies over there.

BTW, I wouldn't buy stuff in Europe even if I lived there! Buy from foreign dealers. You can order from SF Asian dealers and pay almost half the price you'd pay in Britain.


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## Monocrom (Mar 27, 2008)

Pepper said:


> Yes, American made products are just better built and more reliable. For example, compare a Ford or Chevy to a Honda or Toyota


 
The definition of irony.... Many Ford and GM vehicles are built either in Mexico or Canada. Many Honda and Toyota vehicles are built right here in America. They are made by American workers, and thus can easily be classified as "American made products."

BTW, :welcome:


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## GPB (Mar 27, 2008)

I think the quality differences in "Domestic" vs "Imported" cars is more a matter of managerial philosophy and corporate culture than geography.


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## Yucca Patrol (Mar 27, 2008)

0dBm said:


> That's because what I wrote in this and every other thread in this BB as well as EDCF is largely rhetorical. Please see my sig line.



Great sig line.

My sig on another board says something like this (modified for CPF)

* No claim is made that the quality of flashlight related advice offered by Yucca Patrol is greater than the quality of flashlight related advice offered by other CPF members.*


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## WildChild (Mar 27, 2008)

LargePig said:


> There's a pretty good reason why SureFire are not so well known outside of the US, especially in the UK:
> 
> SureFire do not allow their US distributors to ship internationally.
> This means that in the UK at least, you get the dollarpound syndrome from the authorised UK distributors/importers (USD 1=GBP 1)....
> ...



Sad... Up to recently, I was finding SF dealers selling lights for 1.5X the US price even if USD and CAD are at 1:1 now! The good thing, my local SF dealer (found it recently) sells all SF lights for the US price, converted to CAD and since CAD is often slightly worth more than the USD, they are actually cheaper! For example, a G2L was $63 CAD intead of $65 USD. The guy there said the E2D was $109 CAD instead of $110 USD but I had the surprise to pay $98 + taxes for it (printed on the receipt).


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## Handlobraesing (Mar 27, 2008)

mossyoak said:


> well it used to be that they were at the bleeding edge of technology. they arent any more.
> 
> it used to be because of their unbeatable and unmatched warranty. *now there are other companies with the same "unlimited lifetime" warranty.*
> 
> now they are clinging to their reputation- one that is becoming tanished by bad led tints, and worse clickies



I'm going to have to challenge that. First, having been in business for decades make a *BIG* difference in financial solvency of warranty provider. I think their warranty is still close to unmatched. 

Imagine yourself being a creditor. Would you put the new business in the same risk category as Surefire who's been around for decades? 

or if you're lending to two different individuals borrowing the same amount with similar income making the same promise, but one has a great credit history, other not much history. Would you extend the same interest rate? 

In running a business, obligations toward creditors usually come before customers, so you can expect that if a company is at higher risk of being unable to fulfill their obligations toward creditors, same goes for fulfilling their warranty liability. 

Surefire's customers include corporate and public sectors purchasing them in box loads and these buyers don't want to have to deal with "do I need to allocate budget in case the warranty is not honored?"


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## Marduke (Mar 27, 2008)

turbodog said:


> Surefire lights are higher priced because every light comes with a lifetime supply of clicky tailcaps. They aren't free you know.
> 
> I had an A2 that went through 3 brand new tailcaps before I got one that worked. And this wasn't the only SF light I have with a bad switch either...



I think that about sums it up. Something has to pay for all those spare parts that need replacing.


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## BabyDoc (Mar 27, 2008)

jrv said:


> . ...As for warranty: much depends on whether or not you think they warranty will be honored, or if the company even exists. NovaTac canceled the "unlimited" warranty on the EDS line so you have to ask how trustworthy the promises are.


 
That's news to me about Novatac. I just got a new black body 120P, there was no exclusions on the written warranty coming with the light except for the cosmetics on the light, and modifications that people made to them. I expect they will have to honor this.


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## BabyDoc (Mar 27, 2008)

Has anybody noticed that it is more difficult to find discounts on name brand chinese lights than on premium US made lights. Check out Ebay and you will see what I am talking about. I just recently bought a SureFire A2 on Ebay and paid only $114 for it plus $5 shipping. It was brand new, latest version, sealed in a fresh package. The retail on this light is $195. A US made Novatac can be bought on Ebay or at Yourcournerstore.com for less than $130 even though it has a retail of $170. 

On the other hand, it is difficult to find Fenix on any site, Ebay included, at anything but full retail, (minus perhaps shipping charges or CPF minimal discounts.) The same is true of Olight and Nitecore. Prices on all the chinese name brand stuff is close to full retail. There are no big bargains on them. Having said this, it seems to me that SF isn't as expensive as the list price would suggest, because you can frequently buy them at a prices far below list. You can't say the same for the name brand Chinese lights. Why? I don't know.


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## baterija (Mar 27, 2008)

Disclaimer - I have a Surefire weaponlight, and I am not looking at buying another SF anytime soon. I own no Fenix products and the only ones I am remotely interested in are the E01, T1, and Tk10 because of my, and possibly only my, needs. My mall ninja score was 31%.  

To answer the base question, I would say because the market will bear the price (like a good former economics grad student.) Surefire lights seem to have a relatively inelastic demand.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elasticity_of_demand

Here's why I think the demand for Surefire's is inelastic:
- Actual quality. They do put a lot of effort into making their lights highly reliable. The warranty also limits substitutes, since it's a less common feature that insures long term quality by fixing issues.
- Market Segmentation - Surefire effectively provides features and add-ons that limit the available substitutes to many of their lights. There is not a Fenix, and few others, that offers as much as my SF as a weapon mounted light. 
- Consumer perception/imperfect information. SF has a proven track record to stand behind their lights because they largely defined their niche. In effect that are selling long term proven quality as a feature versus other producers promised quality and shorter track record. 
- Market Inefficiencies. The US Military needs to comply with the Berry Amendment, which requires them to give preference to domestically produced items. Uncle Sugar is buying a lot of lights and the law shapes those choices. Surefire only needs to be good enough and it will get big sales right now.
- More consumer perception/imperfect information. Lot's of US soldiers and marines are seen carrying Surefire lights. It's the "best supplied army in the world" so it must be the best light ...especially if you aren't aware of the Berry Amendment.
- Market segmentation. A soldier supplied with a SF gets value from choosing another when they buy a backup light with their own money. There is part similarity in the event of issues, and muscle memory in using a similar light as a backup when things go wrong. In addition it may be the one good light they have experience with so it is easy to shop for another. The initial Berry Amendment sale thus limits choices made in some other sales.
- Never underestimate the very real effect that someone who spends a lot on any item will see more value in that item. People also get utility from having an item that gives us status - we are social animals. Surefire has managed to make themselves a premium brand in the minds of those buying quality lights. Surefire can sell that feel good effect as an extra feature that again limits substitutes.

Overall there are a lot of things that shape the market and let Surefire get a premium price for their lights. What matters is what the light will really offer for your intended use. Sounds like you made the choice that what it offered was worth it to you. Hope it serves you well.:thumbsup:


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## skyline_man (Mar 27, 2008)

> Because when you buy a super sports car, you're not buying speed alone. Why even bother spending money on a GT-R if the only thing you care about is how fast the darn thing goes?



The Nissan GTR is not only faster than the Porsche 911 turbo, it is more technologically superior to the porker, is more roomier inside, more comfortable and has a bigger boot that you can fit a set of golf clubs in. The only thing that the Porsche beats it at is the...BADGE.

Before the GTR came out - the Porsche was the epitome of sports car. Now - even enthusiasts are saying that the Porsche is over priced. My favourite quote from Nissan's chief engineer, "Don't ask why our car is so cheap - rather ask why our competitor's cars are so expensive". The same comment can be applied to flashlights.


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## greenstuffs (Mar 27, 2008)

The new GT-R is really ugly and decaff. What happened to Nissan? was it too expensive to produce an over engineered car without putting a pricetag to make it proffitable? 
Like i said you can prove surefire is overpriced if you can prove a flashlight costing less than a surefire with the same built and complex design as a surefire light. Any contenders?



skyline_man said:


> The Nissan GTR is not only faster than the Porsche 911 turbo, it is more technologically superior to the porker, is more roomier inside, more comfortable and has a bigger boot that you can fit a set of golf clubs in. The only thing that the Porsche beats it at is the...BADGE.
> 
> Before the GTR came out - the Porsche was the epitome of sports car. Now - even enthusiasts are saying that the Porsche is over priced. My favourite quote from Nissan's chief engineer, "Don't ask why our car is so cheap - rather ask why our competitor's cars are so expensive". The same comment can be applied to flashlights.


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## orbital (Mar 27, 2008)

skyline_man said:


> The Nissan GTR is not only faster than the Porsche 911 turbo, it is more technologically superior to the porker, is more roomier inside, more comfortable and has a bigger boot that you can fit a set of golf clubs in. The only thing that the Porsche beats it at is the...BADGE.
> 
> Before the GTR came out - the Porsche was the epitome of sports car. Now - even enthusiasts are saying that the Porsche is over priced. My favourite quote from Nissan's chief engineer, "Don't ask why our car is so cheap - rather ask why our competitor's cars are so expensive". The same comment can be applied to flashlights.




+

Race wins speak for themselves, especially endurance ones,
there will never be a car that comes close to a 911...ever.

That understood, I'v always liked the older GTRs looks.


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## Crenshaw (Mar 27, 2008)

Outdoors Fanatic said:


> SureFire is damn popular in a lot of Asiatic countries such as Japan, South Korea and Singapore. They even have contracts with Military and LEO agencies over there.
> 
> BTW, I wouldn't buy stuff in Europe even if I lived there! Buy from foreign dealers. You can order from SF Asian dealers and pay almost half the price you'd pay in Britain.



Shipping would be a killer. Also, more often then not, LE agencies use either Streamlight or Surefire, or...godforbid...Maglites..

and surefires really are very expensive, im buying everything second hand from marketplace because of that.Oh sure you get what you payfor, so i guess youre getting alot then..either way,, no one can deny they are expensive.

Crenshaw


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## Handlobraesing (Mar 27, 2008)

BabyDoc said:


> You can't say the same for the name brand Chinese lights. Why? I don't know.



I believe they utilize manufacturer set MAP (minimum advertised price) meaning that the manufacturer set a minimum price their dealer may sell the products at.

The price variation is quite small based on my small web research on one Fenix product.


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## skyline_man (Mar 27, 2008)

> The new GT-R is really ugly and decaff. What happened to Nissan? was it too expensive to produce an over engineered car without putting a pricetag to make it proffitable?
> Like i said you can prove surefire is overpriced if you can prove a flashlight costing less than a surefire with the same built and complex design as a surefire light. Any contenders?



Well beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Others can say that the Porsche is ugly and ask whatever happened to their design team - did they sack them 30 years ago, cos the shape of the porsches haven't changed much in 30 years? Photos of the GTR doesn't do it justice. It actually looks very menacing in real life.

How about the new Fenix TK10 for $75? Show me a Surefire light which has the same features as the TK10 for around the same price?


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## BabyDoc (Mar 27, 2008)

Handlobraesing said:


> I believe they utilize manufacturer set MAP (minimum advertised price) meaning that the manufacturer set a minimum price their dealer may sell the products at.
> 
> The price variation is quite small based on my small web research on one Fenix product.


That's exactly my point. Fenix only seems cheap compared to SureFire's list prices. More often you can buy SureFire at discount than you can Fenix, so the price differential is less than you might think.

When I visited the orient, it amazed me that while you could bargain a lot on trinkets, you couldn't bargain on electornics very much. Most dealers stuck to the same price. It appears that Fenix, Olight, NiteCore require their dealers to maintain prices near list or they loose their dealership. It sounds a bit like price fixing to me, but I would guess they have some excuse that allows them to get away with this.


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## Bunk3r (Mar 27, 2008)

Handlobraesing said:


> I believe they utilize manufacturer set MAP (minimum advertised price) meaning that the manufacturer set a minimum price their dealer may sell the products at.
> 
> The price variation is quite small based on my small web research on one Fenix product.


yeah but they seem to bump the prices for the UK I know there is VAT (our Tax which is higher than the US') but UK dealers dont seem to be able to sell them at prices competitive to the US.


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## Marduke (Mar 27, 2008)

BabyDoc said:


> That's exactly my point. Fenix only seems cheap compared to SureFire's list prices. More often you can buy SureFire at discount than you can Fenix, so the price differential is less than you might think.
> 
> When I visited the orient, it amazed me that while you could bargain a lot on trinkets, you couldn't bargain on electornics very much. Most dealers stuck to the same price. It appears that Fenix, Olight, NiteCore require their dealers to maintain prices near list or they loose their dealership. It sounds a bit like price fixing to me, but I would guess they have some excuse that allows them to get away with this.



MAP is just that, the least they are allowed to advertise it for. There is an easy way around it however, by offering non-advertised discounts. Many of the above mentioned stores give specific discounts for CPF in particular. This drives the price lower, and sometimes below what they are supposed to sell it for. But since it's not actually advertised at that price, everything is cool with Fenix.


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## Handlobraesing (Mar 27, 2008)

Bunk3r said:


> yeah but they seem to bump the prices for the UK I know there is VAT (our Tax which is higher than the US') but UK dealers dont seem to be able to sell them at prices competitive to the US.



The manufacturer might be setting region specific MAP.


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## BabyDoc (Mar 27, 2008)

Marduke said:


> MAP is just that, the least they are allowed to advertise it for. There is an easy way around it however, by offering non-advertised discounts. Many of the above mentioned stores give specific discounts for CPF in particular. This drives the price lower, and sometimes below what they are supposed to sell it for. But since it's not actually advertised at that price, everything is cool with Fenix.


 
I have no idea what the usual dealer markup is on flashlights. My guess with SureFire it is 100 percent; otherwise I could never buy a new A2 on Ebay for $114 when the list is $195. I know dealers have to make a living, but it irks me that Fenix, and other premium Chinese makers hold to a fixed price, especially on the internet where overhead is so low. The only Fenix discounts I have seen are free shipping or the token 8 percent discount we get as CPF people. (code cpf8 at Fenix-store.com). Why does Fenix control prices when SureFire and Novatac don't? My only guess is that SureFire and Novatac don't need to fix prices. Their quality is well known. 

On the other hand, because there is a plethora of lesser quality chinese lights out there (see Deal Xtreme), I would guess Fenix, Orlight, and NiteCore want to separate themselves from the rest of the cheaper chinese pack by maintaining a higher price point that would suggest a quality higher than their cheaper bretherin, whether it is true or not. SureFire and Novatac don't need to do this, since their quality is well known. There are not a lot of cheap US made lights that would even begin to imitate them. Even at their discounted prices, SureFires and Novatac are still higher than the expensive Chinese lights.


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## GPB (Mar 27, 2008)

Why does Surefire charge so much for their products ??

Because people will pay it.


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## Marduke (Mar 27, 2008)

BabyDoc said:


> I have no idea what the usual dealer markup is on flashlights. My guess with SureFire it is 100 percent; otherwise I could never buy a new A2 on Ebay for $114 when the list is $195. I know dealers have to make a living, but it irks me that Fenix, and other premium Chinese makers hold to a fixed price, especially on the internet where overhead is so low. The only Fenix discounts I have seen are free shipping or the token 8 percent discount we get as CPF people. (code cpf8 at Fenix-store.com). Why does Fenix control prices when SureFire and Novatac don't? My only guess is that SureFire and Novatac don't need to fix prices. Their quality is well known.
> 
> On the other hand, because there is a plethora of lesser quality chinese lights out there (see Deal Xtreme), I would guess Fenix, Orlight, and NiteCore want to separate themselves from the rest of the cheaper chinese pack by maintaining a higher price point that would suggest a quality higher than their cheaper bretherin, whether it is true or not. SureFire and Novatac don't need to do this, since their quality is well known. There are not a lot of cheap US made lights that would even begin to imitate them. Even at their discounted prices, SureFires and Novatac are still higher than the expensive Chinese lights.




To my knowledge, SF also fixes prices using a MAP for their dealers. However, there are simply more of their lights out there, so it's like anything else. Someone will always get their hands on some cheap from somewhere, and sell them cheaper than the MAP. Also, don't confuse new from dealer with 2nd hand NIB.


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## greenstuffs (Mar 27, 2008)

They aren't in the same league pretty pointless comparison. If Fenix were so good and in the same league it would cost more than $75.



skyline_man said:


> How about the new Fenix TK10 for $75? Show me a Surefire light which has the same features as the TK10 for around the same price?


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## Outdoors Fanatic (Mar 27, 2008)

Crenshaw said:


> Shipping would be a killer. Also, more often then not, LE agencies use either Streamlight or Surefire, or...godforbid...Maglites..
> 
> and surefires really are very expensive, im buying everything second hand from marketplace because of that.Oh sure you get what you payfor, so i guess youre getting alot then..either way,, no one can deny they are expensive.
> 
> Crenshaw


 


> Shipping would be a killer.


 
Not a killer at all. I've paid exactly 12 US Dollars for international shipping from South Korea-- flat rate to any destination worldwide. That's a lot less than what regular U.S Dealers charge for International Orders.

Yes, they are expensive... for some people. But then again, 50 bucks for a flashlight is a major ripoff to anyone not on CPF. And most people here collects a lot of light, even if they only "cheap" Fenixes in the range of 40 to 75 USD. That's not cheap either. Some people have 2 or 3 SureFires, other have 25 Fenixes, who've spent more in the end of the day?


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## Handlobraesing (Mar 27, 2008)

BabyDoc said:


> That's exactly my point. Fenix only seems cheap compared to SureFire's list prices. More often you can buy SureFire at discount than you can Fenix, so the price differential is less than you might think.
> 
> When I visited the orient, it amazed me that while you could bargain a lot on trinkets, you couldn't bargain on electornics very much. Most dealers stuck to the same price. It appears that Fenix, Olight, NiteCore require their dealers to maintain prices near list or they loose their dealership.


There was such a discussion a year or two ago on CPF Underground. 



> It sounds a bit like price fixing to me, but I would guess they have some excuse that allows them to get away with this.


That it does. I think what separates from true price fixing and MAP is that it isn't a parallel price agreements between independent dealers. 

HOWEVER... there was a settlement between 50 US States v. Record Labels over MAP being price fixing. This is a real life major example that it could be seen as a price fixing. 

http://www.usatoday.com/life/music/news/2002-09-30-cd-settlement_x.htm



Marduke said:


> To my knowledge, SF also fixes prices using a MAP for their dealers. However, there are simply more of their lights out there, so it's like anything else. Someone will always get their hands on some cheap from somewhere, and sell them cheaper than the MAP. Also, don't confuse new from dealer with 2nd hand NIB.



Ok, but on the Fenix, you're looking at a mean shipped price of $60.40 with a standard deviation of $2.44. That's almost like distribution on a needle point.


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## Marduke (Mar 27, 2008)

Handlobraesing said:


> Ok, but on the Fenix, you're looking at a mean shipped price of $60.40 with a standard deviation of $2.44. That's almost like distribution on a needle point.



But if you compare that to the % of the total cost, the range is not that dissimilar compared to SF.

I happen to know some of the Fenix MAP's vs. dealer cost (which I will not disclose either of), and trust me, the margins are not all that great for the dealers.


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## GPB (Mar 27, 2008)

I don't think there is as much of a correlation between price and "quality" as people like to assume. If fenix built a similar quality of light as Surefire ( and I am not saying they do.....) they could still sell for less to gain market share, they could be opting for a low margin high volume approach compared to Surefire's High Margin Low volume approach, they may not have as large a R&D department to support, they can't charge a premium for reputation like SF can.....there are many possibilities. We all want to say the higher price is justified by materials, craftmanship, dependability, etc......but we aren't objective here. We are the ones paying the money. Most of us will be inherintly biased towards assuming the price of a Surefire is justified....because we have paid it. It would go against our nature to say..."It's not justified.....we're all fools !!!" 

The price is simply what the market will bear, or where Adam Smith's "invisible hand" puts it.


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## Handlobraesing (Mar 27, 2008)

Marduke said:


> But if you compare that to the % of the total cost, the range is not that dissimilar compared to SF.
> 
> I happen to know some of the Fenix MAP's vs. dealer cost (which I will not disclose either of), and trust me, the margins are not all that great for the dealers.



Did you buy it at-cost at the shot show and sign a NDA? You wouldn't tell me what it is, so it looks like you're appealing to faith.


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## Marduke (Mar 27, 2008)

Handlobraesing said:


> Did you buy it at-cost at the shot show and sign a NDA? You wouldn't tell me what it is, so it looks like you're appealing to faith.



I have seen the sheet which list the dealer cost, MAP, and MSRP for some of their lights. The margins were surprisingly low for the dealers, much lower than I've seen for other lights (including SF)


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## Crenshaw (Mar 27, 2008)

BabyDoc said:


> I have no idea what the usual dealer markup is on flashlights. My guess with SureFire it is 100 percent; otherwise I could never buy a new A2 on Ebay for $114 when the list is $195. I know dealers have to make a living, but it irks me that Fenix, and other premium Chinese makers hold to a fixed price, especially on the internet where overhead is so low. The only Fenix discounts I have seen are free shipping or the token 8 percent discount we get as CPF people. (code cpf8 at Fenix-store.com). Why does Fenix control prices when SureFire and Novatac don't? My only guess is that SureFire and Novatac don't need to fix prices. Their quality is well known.
> 
> On the other hand, because there is a plethora of lesser quality chinese lights out there (see Deal Xtreme), I would guess Fenix, Orlight, and NiteCore want to separate themselves from the rest of the cheaper chinese pack by maintaining a higher price point that would suggest a quality higher than their cheaper bretherin, whether it is true or not. SureFire and Novatac don't need to do this, since their quality is well known. There are not a lot of cheap US made lights that would even begin to imitate them. Even at their discounted prices, SureFires and Novatac are still higher than the expensive Chinese lights.



actually i think its more likley that chinese brand lights are already pretty close to thier profit margin...thats why they have to control it. Something i learnt in high school economics...

they are trying to avoid a price war. See, the high(er) end chinese light market only have a few main competitors. They are all relatively good substitutes for one another. this is called an Oligopoly market structure So, if lets say Nitecore dealers start selling at a lower price.. everyone would move to olight, because they would be able to get similar features, at a lower price.This is called cross elasticity of demand. This would eventually lead to a price war, each company having to lower prices continually to stay competitive. Eventually, selling prices would fall so low, that they would not be able to continue manufacturing lights, which would be bad for everyone. Thus, they keep a certain price point, and all the brands keep a certain price point, so as to avoid a price war. this is called Tacit Collusion.

Outdoor, im about to spend 141 dollars on a C2+malkoff second hand off marketplace. Have 4 main fenixes, the T1, Tk10, P1D-Q5 and LOD Q4..total cost $270, im getting 4 lights for less then twice the price off the C2... to me thats an advantage, even if it isnt to everyone....

Crenshaw


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## L.E.D. (Mar 27, 2008)

Hopelessly ridiculous... "Spoiled kid syndrome" at its worst, from both sides, though many have brought up great valid points... Let's just enjoy our lights shall we, SF or not. All I know is, I can't wait to get my hands on an Invictus!


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## fxstsb (Mar 27, 2008)

stitch_paradox said:


> Yes it is being used, but its not issued. And whats the percentage of your so called users? 5%? I can't find a right word, but I guess goof balls would do. With todays technology it's very easy to design anything with the computer. Heck I can design mine if I want, but that doesn't me an engineer right? Are you 100 percent sure there are no kids working on the factory? I'm sure there are. With a salary of less than $4 a day I think it's pretty safe to say that's it sort of like a sweat shop. And there are many levels of standard of aluminum, Coke cans and airplane body are both aluminum and yet they are not the same. Go ask your flashlight manufacturer what grade of aluminum do they use, then compare it with SF. Then talk to me.


I guess you just have to buy a Surefire so you can say you have one. I carry the Chinese Rip offs. Search around this forum, there are custom parts makers that will give you want you want in the long run. I use the Surefire if I want to use a filter.


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## Crenshaw (Mar 27, 2008)

by the way stitch, Tiablo uses T7075 type aluminium, and unless you have proof that chinese factories use kids, youre liable for slander...

Crenshaw


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## stitch_paradox (Mar 27, 2008)

Crenshaw said:


> by the way stitch, Tiablo uses T7075 type aluminium, and unless you have proof that chinese factories use kids, youre liable for slander...
> 
> Crenshaw




http://www.china-labour.org.hk/en/node/15889

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/1207349.stm
This is from BBC news, a British media company so their reports are unbiased and pretty much reliable.

http://ihscslnews.org/view_article.php?id=57

and

http://www.google.com/search?client...&hl=en&q=Child+labor+china&btnG=Google+Search

There you go crenshaw.


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## greenstuffs (Mar 27, 2008)

Child labor is evil


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## Crenshaw (Mar 27, 2008)

thanks stitch, thats horrible though, child labour...but i surehope companies like fenix dont do that...

Crenshaw


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## yaesumofo (Mar 27, 2008)

*Re: Help me Understand Why Surefire are so Expensive*

I have a feeling that if we began seeing Fenix lights in target stores the prices would go DOWN.

I recently went into my local gun shop. they had a full range of surefire flashlights. all being sold at full retail with no discount. they also had the full range of Novatac lights. The Novatac lights were discounted a bit.
Funny thing is that there were NO fenix lights.

It seems to me that the online retail outlets for Fenix lights are really few and far between. That there may be one main importer who also retails the lights. One two or even 20 outlets pales in comparison to the number of stores selling surefire products.
I wonder why?

Child labor is a terrible thing. It seems to me that socially conscious companies (apple??) should be willing to certify that child labor is NOT used in the manufacturing of their product. I wonder if Fenix is willing to certify this publicly. 
This is actually a very important issue and shouldn't be ignored.
It is precisely one of the reasons I personally try to avoid cheap Chinese products like those sold at DX.

Yaesumofo


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## L.E.D. (Mar 28, 2008)

This doesn't mean that ALL Chinese companies use child labor.


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## Crenshaw (Mar 28, 2008)

L.E.D. said:


> This doesn't mean that ALL Chinese companies use child labor.


+1
would have said so earlier, but i would have gotten accused of trolling

Crenshaw


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## Outdoors Fanatic (Mar 28, 2008)

L.E.D. said:


> This doesn't mean that ALL Chinese companies use child labor.


That's right. Sometimes they use adult slaves instead...


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## GPB (Mar 28, 2008)

What's wrong with child labor ? Assuming no one is being forced to work against their will ( aka: slavery ), if a country and a culture allow it, who are we to judge them ? IF kids shouldn't go to work, their parents will keep them away from it. I have to figure the parents know what's best for their kids. If some Widget company doesn't use kids in its factory, but it is an acceptable practice in that area, the kids who want to work are just going to work at the factory across the street. This isn't an issue for an individual company to deal with, this is a regulatory issue for the government. If the practice is allowed, I can't fault a company for partaking in the practice, because even if they don't, some other company will and the kids will still be working.


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## greenstuffs (Mar 28, 2008)

That is why people have ethics and morals :shrug:


GPB said:


> What's wrong with child labor ? Assuming no one is being forced to work against their will ( aka: slavery ), if a country and a culture allow it, who are we to judge them ? IF kids shouldn't go to work, their parents will keep them away from it. I have to figure the parents know what's best for their kids. If some Widget company doesn't use kids in its factory, but it is an acceptable practice in that area, the kids who want to work are just going to work at the factory across the street. This isn't an issue for an individual company to deal with, this is a regulatory issue for the government. If the practice is allowed, I can't fault a company for partaking in the practice, because even if they don't, some other company will and the kids will still be working.


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## ultimaonliner (Mar 28, 2008)

It's odd for me to see such passionate views against Fenix.

They make a great flashlight that is only considered inexpensive when compared to Surefire.

Unlike presidential political candidates or Burger King ads from the 1980's, Fenix does not engage in negative campaigning against their primary competitor(s).

So why the hate against Fenix?

BTW--If Surefires are made in Fontana, CA... well, that just about ruined any notion in my head of superior craftsmanship oo:


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## L.E.D. (Mar 28, 2008)

Outdoors Fanatic said:


> That's right. Sometimes they use adult slaves instead...



Not all of them use adult slaves either.


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## razor7 (Mar 28, 2008)

I came to the light... said:


> Another possible reason for the overpricing is that SF is the only top-notch military supplier. Meaning, if you want a light designed to be used in combat, SF is the only company completely dedicated to that.



Not true- PentagonLight is just as dedicated as SureFire in supplying the military with weapolights, and their products are every bit as good as SureFire. Also, Streamlight, and Insight Technologies are military suppliers as well.


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## razor7 (Mar 28, 2008)

mossyoak said:


> i guarantee you that there are more mag-lites than surefires and fenixes in iraq combined. surefires arent issued, at least my best friend in the army and my brother who is a marine both didnt get one.



I was a Scout/Sniper in USMC, recently retired, and can assure you that SureFires are issued. Problem is, they are not issued to every infantryman, which is a shame. The elite and spec-ops divisions get outfitted with just about anything they want, just like Nike outfits pro athletes.


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## razor7 (Mar 28, 2008)

I always had the impression that Fenix lights were made overseas, by an overseas company. Reading this post that does not seem to be the case. Is Fenix an American company? Are their products made here in the US?


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## stitch_paradox (Mar 28, 2008)

GPB said:


> What's wrong with child labor ? Assuming no one is being forced to work against their will ( aka: slavery ), if a country and a culture allow it, who are we to judge them ? IF kids shouldn't go to work, their parents will keep them away from it. I have to figure the parents know what's best for their kids. If some Widget company doesn't use kids in its factory, but it is an acceptable practice in that area, the kids who want to work are just going to work at the factory across the street. This isn't an issue for an individual company to deal with, this is a regulatory issue for the government. If the practice is allowed, I can't fault a company for partaking in the practice, because even if they don't, some other company will and the kids will still be working.



Man, as much as I want to comment on your idiotic post, I will just let your post speak on what kind of a human being you are... what a total waste of life. I hope your mother is proud of you. 

Back on topic. I have a gut feeling that Fenix is NOT involve in child labor, I really hope I'm right. However, child labor is rampant among Chinese companies, which ones are they? We can't tell, for all we know those big, so called, "american" companies based in China, might even have them. Majority of labor conditions among Chinese and other foreign factories are very bad. Whether the laborer is a child or and adult this is utterly despicably. 

And this is one of the reason why American made products are a little more expensive than foreign products. American companies are required by the law to take care of their laborers. They are given benefits, paid vacation, medical insurance, etc. Laborers actually have their human rights.


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## stitch_paradox (Mar 28, 2008)

razor7 said:


> Not true- PentagonLight is just as dedicated as SureFire in supplying the military with weapolights, and their products are every bit as good as SureFire. Also, Streamlight, and Insight Technologies are military suppliers as well.



PentagonLught, Streamlight, and other American made flashlights are also quite "expensive" when compared to their Asian counterparts. And yet we don't see people complain about that. Its make you think what agendas do this people have in their mind, when they always criticize SF.


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## Crenshaw (Mar 28, 2008)

Stitch, it really isnt nice to make personal attacks on anyone..

and Working Children really isnt all that bad. Like he said, the alternative is the streets, with no money. Not everywhere in the world is like in the US. people work for money, for food, the alternative being no food at all. Child Labour in terms of slavery is bad, but you have to see the big picture, they wouldnt have money otherwise anyway. is it good? no, perfect? far from, but sometimes unavoidable. if you recall, even in the US at one point in history, there would have been child labour. after thinking about it, i would be happy if fenix had children working in thier factories, because im sure they would treat them right, meaning that these poor kids would have a source of income, and a good working environment.Most of these kids would be to poor to afford education, so i guess this is a better alternative then living in the steets.

anyway this is the last thing i will say here,i cant see this going anywhere i want to.... thank you to those who have given constructive and well thought out feedback. :wave:

Crenshaw


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## mossyoak (Mar 28, 2008)

razor7 said:


> I always had the impression that Fenix lights were made overseas, by an overseas company. Reading this post that does not seem to be the case. Is Fenix an American company? Are their products made here in the US?



fenix is a chinese company and the lights are made over their as well.


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## stitch_paradox (Mar 28, 2008)

Crenshaw said:


> Stitch, it really isnt nice to make personal attacks on anyone..



You always do that crenshaw, so don't preach on me. Nowonder you're being called a hypocrite.



Crenshaw said:


> and Working Children really isnt all that bad. Like he said, the alternative is the streets, with no money. Not everywhere in the world is like in the US. people work for money, for food, the alternative being no food at all. Child Labour in terms of slavery is bad, but you have to see the big picture, they wouldnt have money otherwise anyway. is it good? no, perfect? far from, but sometimes unavoidable. if you recall, even in the US at one point in history, there would have been child labour. after thinking about it, i would be happy if fenix had children working in thier factories, because im sure they would treat them right, meaning that these poor kids would have a source of income, and a good working environment.Most of these kids would be to poor to afford education, so i guess this is a better alternative then living in the steets.
> 
> anyway this is the last thing i will say here, thank you to those who have given constructive and well thought out feedback. :wave:
> 
> Crenshaw


Children should belong to schools, not streets or factories. *If China is really concerned for it's people and children, with all their wealth they should have made it to a point that at least every child should be in school*. You see China is far wealthier that most of the non third world countries, let's say Canada and Australia, but do we see child laborers in both of the countries? NO. But, why do they allow child laborers...Cheap labor its more money for them. It's all about the government there. Tell that to any child laborers there and I'm 100% sure they would tell you that they rather be studying in schools than working in factories. Its good to train kids early in life for working, but standing there at a factory working for 8 to 10 hours a day is far different from training. 



Crenshaw said:


> after thinking about it, i would be happy if fenix had children working in thier factories,



Man you would say anything just so you can have the last word huh? Now I really see what kind of a person you are, great morals there kid. You just degraded yourself my friend. 

Its easy for you to say that since you can enjoy your freedom and enjoy the benefit of you parents hard earned money, your mom still buys you flashlights after all. I bet any Chinese kid working hard at a factory right now would exchange life with you with out thinking twice.


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## razor7 (Mar 28, 2008)

Crenshaw said:


> Stitch, it really isnt nice to make personal attacks on anyone..
> 
> and Working Children really isnt all that bad. Like he said, the alternative is the streets, with no money. Not everywhere in the world is like in the US. people work for money, for food, the alternative being no food at all. Child Labour in terms of slavery is bad, but you have to see the big picture, they wouldnt have money otherwise anyway. is it good? no, perfect? far from, but sometimes unavoidable. if you recall, even in the US at one point in history, there would have been child labour. after thinking about it, i would be happy if fenix had children working in thier factories, because im sure they would treat them right, meaning that these poor kids would have a source of income, and a good working environment.Most of these kids would be to poor to afford education, so i guess this is a better alternative then living in the steets.
> 
> ...



I would have to agree. It is sad that most kids these days expect everything to be given to them by mommy and daddy, and waste so much time doing nothing constructive with their lives. Even sadder that so many parents these days let this happen. I think the greatest cause of decline in modern society was the industrial revolution, causing parents to leave home to work in factories or for big business. Ended the era where most families ran local businesses, and their children learned their trade and skills from that. I don't agree that kids should be working in sweat shops, but should be allowed to work in a safe environment to develop good work ethics and skills from an early age.


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## ultimaonliner (Mar 28, 2008)

While China's GDP is greater than Canada or Australia, the per capita income is actually extremely low. The average life and availability of economic opportunities is exceedingly bad by any measure.

It's quite easy for a citizen of a wealthy country (like the U.S.) to point fingers at nations where monthly incomes may barely exceed $20.

Wages have been increasing dramatically in China, and I do not know the latest figures, but I remember that they may have increased to almost 75 cents per hour. These are for adults. (Don't quote me on the exact number, but the general idea is that it is far below that of the U.S.)



stitch_paradox said:


> You always do that crenshaw, so don't preach on me. Nowonder you're being called a hypocrite.
> 
> 
> Children should belong to schools, not streets or factories. *If China is really concerned for it's people and children, with all their wealth they should have made it to a point that at least every child should be in school*. You see China is far wealthier that most of the non third world countries, let's say Canada and Australia, but do we see child laborers in both of the countries? NO. But, why do they allow child laborers...Cheap labor its more money for them. It's all about the government there. Tell that to any child laborers there and I'm 100% sure they would tell you that they rather be studying in schools than working in factories. Its good to train kids early in life for working, but standing there at a factory working for 8 to 10 hours a day is far different from training.
> ...


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## xcel730 (Mar 28, 2008)

stitch_paradox said:


> PentagonLught, Streamlight, and other American made flashlights are also quite "expensive" when compared to their Asian counterparts. And yet we don't see people complain about that. Its make you think what agendas do this people have in their mind, when they always criticize SF.


 
Stitch, I'm the OP and I've been following this thread closely. I know you have strong opinions in many matters, but there's really no need to put others' opinions down and call people names. That's not very nice. :shakehead You may not think so, but even your comment about "it makes you think what agendas do these people have in their mind when they always criticize SF" have negative connotations. Your next post may be, "I wasn't referring to you. Did I say your name, etc", but that's not the point.

As I've already indicated, I'm just a newbie getting to know more about SF flashlights and trying to get a sense of whether the price is because of status symbol (i.e., someone owning a Rolex) or some other factors. As a newbie, I have never heard of PentagonLight nor Insight before this thread. It may seem obvious to you, but for someone who don't have the experience with flashlights, it would be confusing for them to figure out why one flashlight with all these modes and much higher lumens rating and much higher runtime cost much less than SF ... and from pictures they both look well-constructed. I can assure you that I have no hidden agenda and from my original post, I made it clear that I am not criticizing SF in any shape or form. If the answer was simply, "because it makes me feel good owning an SF", that's fine for me. I've own several fine knives that are above $500 price mark and have watches that are a few thousand dollars. My friends think I'm crazy because they don't understand. To them, a $50 knife is already too expensive, but that's because they don't know anything about the blade material, heat treatment, handle materials, etc. To them, a 440a is the same as S30V.
Similarly, the expensive watches actually tells time worst than a $100 Casio Pathfinder (and it doesn't even have compass, alarm, stopwatch, altimeter, and such). 

As a matter of fact, it is from this thread an constructive feedback from many other posters, that got me to pull the trigger and purchased the E2L (dual 3/60 lms) yesterday ... and I already received it today :twothumbs, thanks BatteryJunction!!! So now that I own the Fenix L2D and SF E2L ... I can say, I like them both for different reasons (hope this would not cause another war). I like L2D because it's thinner, brighter, and have more modes. Even though my newly acquired SL E2L is not as bright, I still like it a lot. It's built like a tank and I'm sure if I run my truck over it (accidentally of course), it will still work. It is very nicely made and I appreciate the quality. I think 60 lumens is fine for what I intend for this flashlight for (and I'm sure I could buy replacement heads if SF comes out with new ones).


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## xcel730 (Mar 28, 2008)

ultimaonliner said:


> While China's GDP is greater than Canada or Australia, the per capita income is actually extremely low. The average life and availability of economic opportunities is exceedingly bad by any measure.
> 
> It's quite easy for a citizen of a wealthy country (like the U.S.) to point fingers at nations where monthly incomes may barely exceed $20.
> 
> Wages have been increasing dramatically in China, and I do not know the latest figures, but I remember that they may have increased to almost 75 cents per hour. These are for adults. (Don't quote me on the exact number, but the general idea is that it is far below that of the U.S.)


 
I agree on the comment. Even in the US, the average domestic income per household is really skewed. The east and west coast tend to have much higher standards of living than anywhere else in the US. I've been to some 4-stars hotels in the coast that cost $500 a night and I've been to some hotels in the midwest and south that cost $70 a night. That's HUGE DIFFERENCE!!!!


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## adamlau (Mar 28, 2008)

R&D, build quality and customer and warranty support services. Why is Polarion so expensive? Same reasons.


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## neoseikan (Mar 28, 2008)

As a producer in China, I don't know how Fenix works much,
But for me, there is a scene different with some one's image.
Now we have a small lab, but in it, there are the best young guys in best academic places in China. We design circuits, reflector curves, and the body.
We also buy parts from other factories, but to get things better, we choose those most reliable company as our partner.
In CNC shops, they should have best experienced workers, or the expensive machine will be a waste. I saw some young people in there, they are apprentices. But only educated boys or girls, at least graduated from high school, will have the chance to be apprentices in CNC shops. We hope all the young Chinese could grasp their chance to learn more, to have a better life.
The problem is, in many areas, there is not enough working opportunity like these, therefore, there won't be a clear future for young people in there. There also won't be a reason for those poor families to support their children's education. 
China is big, and the way is too far for many families.
That's the reason for slave workers and children labors.


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## GPB (Mar 28, 2008)

Stitch: Thanks for backing me up with your post. In my "idiotic post" I had said:

This isn't an issue for an individual company to deal with, this is a regulatory issue for the government


and in your post you said: 

*If China is really concerned for it's people and children, with all their wealth they should have made it to a point that at least every child should be in school*. You see China is far wealthier that most of the non third world countries, let's say Canada and Australia, but do we see child laborers in both of the countries? NO. But, why do they allow child laborers...Cheap labor its more money for them. It's all about the government there.


If the practice is leglally and socially acceptable in an area, then its going to happen whether you buy their products or not. Lets say there is a company that employs kids and you boycott them. Lets say you get all your friends to boycott them ( lets assume for a minute that you have lots of friends ) 

Scenario #1: The company goes out of business. 
Do you think the kids will all of a sudden have an epiphany and go enroll in the local school ?!?!? No...they will go to the factory down the street for less pay because unemployment rates in that area just skyrocketted when the factory closed. 

Scenario #2: Company management sees that child labor is hurting its profits and hires only adults. It fires the kids and hires adults.....well now the laid off kids go take the jobs that the adults just left, we have a shifting of the labor force, and a probably productivity decline until the labor market stabilizes. 

Either way...kids are still working because the society and the government condone the practice. 

So I don't want my kid to work in a factory, and I'm grateful that I live in a country that values education and children, but I'm not going to stop buying everything made in China because they are employing practices that we find offensive. Our country built its wealth in ways that seem offensive to the current generation, so it seems pretty ironic that everyone gets bent that China is doing it as well.


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## Stereodude (Mar 28, 2008)

stitch_paradox said:


> Most of the hondas and toyotas you are referring to are still made here, you do know that they have factories here right?


Yeah, that must be why their quality is so good... Because they're made in the US. 

In reality the quality of their cars has gone down hill. First when they started building cars in the US, and then again when they started designing unique models exclusively for the US market. :sick2:


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## fxstsb (Mar 28, 2008)

Quality, made in the USA.


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## Marduke (Mar 28, 2008)

How has this thread not been closed yet???


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## Spotpuff (Mar 28, 2008)

This thread has at times gotten really OT. I don't see why people can't just like what they like, be willing to pay for what they want, and let everyone else just have their own opinion without the ad hominem attacks and generalizations.


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## skyline_man (Mar 28, 2008)

> They aren't in the same league pretty pointless comparison. If Fenix were so good and in the same league it would cost more than $75.



The TK10 not in the same league? Even when it is brighter, more efficient and just as well made? I fail to see the justification.


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## greenstuffs (Mar 28, 2008)

The problem of China is that it's development is not widespread or equal throughout the country, you'll see Skyscrapers in Shanghai but again you will see houses in the same city that don't have running water.

Go a little farther away from the big cities to the rural areas and you can still see agriculture in the traditional way with the mule and the plow. Of course people will have to work to be able to make a living and kids are no exception. The problem is that factories go to the villages recruit kids or anyone willing to work and take them to the factories near the city with a promise to make a better living. They end up living stacked in the factories owners apartments in conditions of 8 people in a room and things such as working 14 hrs a day 6-7 days a week. 

The problem is the greed of the owners as well as the corruption and the politics for letting it happen. Of course people around the world is guilty for ever wanting cheaper and cheaper commodities. 




GPB said:


> So I don't want my kid to work in a factory, and I'm grateful that I live in a country that values education and children, but I'm not going to stop buying everything made in China because they are employing practices that we find offensive. Our country built its wealth in ways that seem offensive to the current generation, so it seems pretty ironic that everyone gets bent that China is doing it as well.


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## BabyDoc (Mar 28, 2008)

skyline_man said:


> The TK10 not in the same league? Even when it is brighter, more efficient and just as well made? I fail to see the justification.


 
No, IMO, the TK10 is not in the same league. How much research and development went into making the TK10? Not much. It is a redressed version of the T1, coming out only months after the not so well thought out T1 (clips that scratch, front heavy steel bezel). Sure, Fenix was responsive to the complaints about the T1, but shouldn't they have figured out the correct design to begin with. SureFire spends lots more money on research and trials before releasing a new light. Their new designs last for years, not months. 

Furthermore, brightness alone does NOT determine quality. Besides build quality, and proven durability, color rendition, shape of the beam, abscence of artificacts, throw, and spread are also important. No one design fits all needs. SureFire lights are each designed for a special need. Their catalog of lights is enormous. Fenix, on the other hand, has 2 basic models (their Tactical T1/T10 series, and their multimode L1D, P2D, LOD, P1D, P2D, P3D series). All of the latter lights have similar beams, slight color variations, and similar interfaces. The major difference between the later lights is whether it has a clicky or not, or what batteries it allows you to use. Fenix "updates" these models with the latest emitters even if the upgrade isn't an improvement in every respect. For example, the upgrade from the Rebel emitter to the Q5 was at the expense of color rendition. SureFire hasn't been quick to jump on the Q5 bandwaggon. Beam and color rendition seem to be a higher priority than just more lumens. When SureFire does "catch up", they will be ahead. I will bet, for example, when the optimus is released, it will do it all -more lumens as well as better color rendition. We'll see.


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## mighty82 (Mar 28, 2008)

This is the angriest thread i have seen on this forum. I have given up on trying to tell this people that good quality flashligts other than surefires exists. Even better ones. I have seen no proof that surefire have better quality than.. lets say fenix.. I have seen people go through tailswitch after tailswitch on surefire lights, just like any other brand, if not even worse. They will just have to figure it out for themselves.

I quote.. "They aren't in the same league pretty pointless comparison. If Fenix were so good and in the same league it would cost more than $75."

This is a good example on why people think they are better than anything else combined. The power of the mind, you know, expensive placebo works better than cheap placebo


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## skyline_man (Mar 28, 2008)

> No, IMO, the TK10 is not in the same league. How much research and development went into making the TK10? Not much. It is a redressed version of the T1, coming out only months after the not so well thought out T1 (clips that scratch, front heavy steel bezel). Sure, Fenix was responsive to the complaints about the T1, but shouldn't they have figured out the correct design to begin with.



I agree with you about the Fenix T1, but the TK10 is a different light and addresses the problems that the T1 has. So what if it took Fenix a few months to design the TK10, so long as they got it right? It's just a flashlight we're talking about here - not some state of the art military nuclear bomb that requires months or years of R & D!



> Furthermore, brightness alone does NOT determine quality. Besides build quality, and proven durability, color rendition, shape of the beam, abscence of artificacts, throw, and spread are also important. No one design fits all needs.



From my knowledge, not all LED Surefire lights have perfect colour rendition. It's all part of the lottery. whether it's Fenix, nitecore, wolf-eyes or Surefire etc, they all get their LED's from one source.
What's wrong with the beam shape of the TK10? Some say that it's one of the best in terms of throw and spread. Surely up to par or surpasses a similar Surefire. 
So from collected information we can assume that the TK10 is better than a similar Surefire in output, runtime, beam pattern and price. Is equal with the Surefire in durability. But is beaten by the Surefire in terms of construction and aesthetic appeal. If you give all points equal weighing, wouldn't the TK10 come out as the winner and as the "better" light?


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## js (Mar 28, 2008)

OK everyone, that is *ENOUGH* discussion of China and child labor. Any more and I will close this thread. Period. Take that part of the discussion to CPFU if anyone would like to continue it. This forum is for discussion of LED flashlights. Obviously, some amount of tangential subjects will come up, as there are many connections and relevances. But this has gone too far.

Now, that said, I'd like to get up on a soap box and point out what--in my opinion--is inflammatory posting style. But for the record, I think this thread went along pretty well for the most part, given the topic. OK. Here are three very simple, very quick rules of thumb that in my opinion help avoid flame wars:

1. Disagree with the position, but do *NOT* attack the poster or the poster's opinion:

For example, this is TOTALLY unacceptable:


> Man, as much as I want to comment on your idiotic post, I will just let your post speak on what kind of a human being you are... what a total waste of life. I hope your mother is proud of you.



If this person had really decided not to comment, then _he wouldn't have commented_. It is really bad form to call a post "idiotic" or to say that one of our members is "a total waste of life". If someone really feels this way about another, and needs a forum to vent this sort of thing, The Mat in CPFU is the appropriate place, but *NOT HERE*.

If you consider a post idiotic, or a position unethical, then it's fine to make your case and show why this is so. It is not fine to just baldly make ad hominem attacks.

2. Don't play moderator. Not on TV, not here, not anywhere else. If you think someone's conduct is out of line, report it. Just please skip the "You're being mean". "OH YEAH? Well you started it." And so on. Don't pass moral or ethical judgement on another persons conduct in a post. Just skip that part and report it to a moderator if it is truly out of line.

3. Try to maintain respect for the _person_ even if you can't respect that persons views and opinions. If you can't manage that, then it's best to steer clear of him or her.

So, there it is. My _suggestions_. Take them or leave them. But I'll be watching this thread closely from now on, so please try to bring this discussion back on track, or just let it die. Either way is fine with me.

THIS IS THE FIRST, LAST, AND ONLY WARNING.


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## Stereodude (Mar 28, 2008)

mighty82 said:


> This is a good example on why people think they are better than anything else combined. The power of the mind, you know, expensive placebo works better than cheap placebo


Here's an article about a study on that very thing.


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## marinemaster (Mar 28, 2008)

We all been there.....when your number of posts are around 500 or so you WILL understand what Surefire is all about.....until then save your money....


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## Handlobraesing (Mar 28, 2008)

While on the topic of Child labor and Fenix, it makes me wonder if their factory meets the same environmental and waste standards that US factories do.


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## kongfuchicken (Mar 28, 2008)

skyline_man said:


> The TK10 not in the same league? Even when it is brighter, more efficient and just as well made? I fail to see the justification.



Compared to which model? the 6P? the L4?
I agree that a lot of SF models aren't updated as of now and that it helps put things in perspective to show that the emperor is naked once in a while but that doesn't make it much of a fair comparison nonetheless...
Some of the SF designs are older than a good percentage of the people on this board; they were top of the line back when they were released, just like the tk10 right now.

The only model that's somewhat in the same technological generation is the U2A, and when that model is released, you'll be able to say that you can't find a Fenix (or any other brand) model in ANY price range that has the same features and performance... 

The price tag on the SF keeps engineers like PK and people on their CS team employed. Some of us might not think of having the latest gadget feature or an unconditional warranty that'll be kicking long after I retire as our priority in a flashlight purchase but I assure you some people do. And as long as they are there ordering from SF, SF will never mind that a few people roll their eyes at their prices. Therefore, that's why SF's are so expensive to us... because they had never once needed to justify their prices to you or me or anyone.


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## BabyDoc (Mar 28, 2008)

skyline_man said:


> I agree with you about the Fenix T1, but the TK10 is a different light and addresses the problems that the T1 has. So what if it took Fenix a few months to design the TK10, so long as they got it right? It's just a flashlight we're talking about here - not some state of the art military nuclear bomb that requires months or years of R & D!
> 
> From my knowledge, not all LED Surefire lights have perfect colour rendition. It's all part of the lottery. whether it's Fenix, nitecore, wolf-eyes or Surefire etc, they all get their LED's from one source.
> What's wrong with the beam shape of the TK10? Some say that it's one of the best in terms of throw and spread. Surely up to par or surpasses a similar Surefire.
> So from collected information we can assume that the TK10 is better than a similar Surefire in output, runtime, beam pattern and price. Is equal with the Surefire in durability. But is beaten by the Surefire in terms of construction and aesthetic appeal. If you give all points equal weighing, wouldn't the TK10 come out as the winner and as the "better" light?


 
A tactical light may not be like a state of the art military bomb that requires years to develop. However, a professional's life may depend on the design of a Tactical light. SureFires are lights are well thought out lights made for professionals. They are not lights that look like professional lights to be used only by amateurs. Fenix puts out the T10 as quickly as they put out the T1, both supposedly for tactical needs. It is only a couple of weeks since the T10, has been released. Let's hope they have it right this time. If I were a soldier in the field, I would rather have a time tested SureFire design than a Fenix wantabe, yet to be proven tactical. 

While there IS some variation in tints between one LED and another, overall I have found less variability with people's accounts of various SureFire lights than I have of Fenix. The recent crop of Fenix lights with the Q5 are "cold" by comparison to the recent SureFires. You could argue that none of the current LED's are accurate and I would have to agree. However, I believe SureFire comes closer than does Fenix. Actually, not all Flashlight manufacturers get their LED's from one source. I asked SureFire about the the Cree LED in the L1, which to my eyes, gives better color rendition than any Q5 I have seen. I was told that this LED was SureFire's own proprietary design, made to their specifications. I can't comment on the T10 in particular on its beam, color, throw, or other properties. It may be different, I haven't tried one as I have tried almost every other recently made Fenix lights. If the T10 can stand up to SureFire, it is the first Fenix light that can. However, would you bet your life on an unproven Fenix design, when for a few extra dollars more, there is SureFire alternative? Only, if you were a casual user, would PERHAPS, the T10 be the better deal.


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## Handlobraesing (Mar 28, 2008)

BabyDoc said:


> A tactical light may not be like a state of the art military bomb that requires years to develop. However, a professional's life may depend on the design of a Tactical light. SureFires are lights are well thought out lights made for professionals. They are not lights that look like professional lights to be used only by amateurs. Fenix puts out the T10 as quickly as they put out the T1, both supposedly for tactical needs. It is only a couple of weeks since the T10, has been released. Let's hope they have it right this time. If I were a soldier in the field, I would rather have a time tested SureFire design than a Fenix wantabe, yet to be proven tactical.




VERY VERY WELL SAID AAA+ +1


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## skyline_man (Mar 28, 2008)

> However, would you bet your life on an unproven Fenix design, when for a few extra dollars more, there is SureFire alternative?



You are making it sound like if its a state of the art life saving device here. For goodness sake, its just an aluminium tube with an LED and a switch. You press the switch - the light goes on, simple. No millions of dollars needed for R&D here. Heck, even a random member on this forum can design and put together a Surefire beating flashlight if given the right parts and equipment. 
There are numerous tests of the T1 proving itself that it is "built like a tank" and judging from the design and spec of the TK10, I can't see why it will not hold up just as well as the T1.
A recent post by a police officer said that he was very happy with his TK10 and that it outperformed his much more expensive flashlights when it comes to tactical use.

Being the best is relative and depends on the criteria you judge something by. When you compare the TK10 with a similar Surefire, how do you come to the conclusion that the TK10 is not in the same league? Because it doesn't look as good, or it doesn't have enough R&D, therefore it is not as good? If you look at the argument from another perspective, someone else could say that the Surefire is not in the same league as the TK10 because its output is not as high and efficient as the TK10 for its price.
The problem here is that its not the Fenix lovers who say that Surefire is not up to par with Fenix. It's the Surefire lovers who say that Fenix is not in the same league as Surefire when all evidence states otherwise. That's the problem.


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## BabyDoc (Mar 28, 2008)

skyline_man said:


> You are making it sound like if its a state of the art life saving device here. For goodness sake, its just an aluminium tube with an LED and a switch. You press the switch - the light goes on, simple. No millions of dollars needed for R&D here. Heck, even a random member on this forum can design and put together a Surefire beating flashlight if given the right parts and equipment.
> There are numerous tests of the T1 proving itself that it is "built like a tank" and judging from the design and spec of the TK10, I can't see why it will not hold up just as well as the T1.
> A recent post by a police officer said that he was very happy with his TK10 and that it outperformed his much more expensive flashlights when it comes to tactical use.
> 
> ...


 
I am not JUST a SureFire lover. I love both Fenix and SureFire for what they are. I have both. In fact, right now I have a LOD on my keychain, where there is no SureFire that can compete. I also own a L2D, P2D, and L1D Rebel. They are nice lights for what they are. 

Have you ever owned a SureFire?. (I own an A2, EL2, EB1, and an L1.) I would tend to doubt you have.. It sounds like you are convinced it isn't worth owning. However, if you did own a SureFire, then perhaps you could talk from experience and say Fenix, from your experience, WAS in the same league. Nobody could then argue with that opinion, although we might still differ. Even if you don't own a SureFire, I don't think this is worth arguing about. You are still entitled to your opinion, and I am glad you are enjoying what you have. That's really all that counts.


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## js (Mar 28, 2008)

skyline_man said:


> . . .
> 
> The problem here is that its not the Fenix lovers who say that Surefire is not up to par with Fenix. It's the Surefire lovers who say that Fenix is not in the same league as Surefire when all evidence states otherwise. That's the problem.



Well, first of all, neither "problem" is a problem. That's part of the fun of CPF. We talk about lights, and, inevitably, disagree at times. If the discussion remains respectful, this is actually enjoyable.

Second, I would suggest that you consider the _possibility_ that perhaps there are considerations of R&D and cost that you might not be taking into account. tvodrd's post much earlier in this thread is a good example. Someone who really knows about HA and Chemkote and o-ring channels and fit and finish is able to clearly point out where some of the dollars might be going. For maybe some more such example, you might check out the SF A2 link in my sigline.

But in any case, we're all free to keep our own counsel and spend our dollars as we wish, and we're all free to voice our opinions on such things in a respectful manner. This is not a problem, it's part of the culture, part of the community here at CPF. However, I readily admit that there is often a lack of respect on *both* sides of this debate.


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## bondr006 (Mar 28, 2008)

After I was gifted with my first Surefire....it did not take me long to figure out why they were more expensive than many other flash lights. Up to that time, I was in the process of accumulating a rather large collection of Fenix lights. Mixed in with them were many other assorted lights of Asian origin. To be honest, I never had one single problem with any of my Fenix lights...or any of the others for that matter. My preferences in lights changed...not because I didn't like Fenix or the others....but because I liked the Surefire lights much better. There are many reasons why I like the Surefire brand better, and think that they are worth the added cost. They have a feeling of substance and balance that I have not felt in another light. They have a fit and finish that sets the standard. The machine work is just absolutely amazing. One example is the knurling on the Surefire just grabs your hand like Velcro. In my experience, I have never felt any knurling equal to that of Surefire. The pieces of the Surefire lights are not molded, but machined out of solid pieces of very high quality aluminum. The HA finish is very durable. They are made and assembled in the United States. They come with unequaled customer service, and a lifetime warranty that guarantees fix or replace with no questions asked. It is not just a flashlight, but a fine piece of equipment or tool if you will, that you can own and trust for the rest of your life. These things all add up, and in my opinion more than justify the cost of the Surefire brand of lights.


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## Fird (Mar 28, 2008)

Marketing.


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## Marduke (Mar 28, 2008)

skyline_man said:


> The problem here is that its not the Fenix lovers who say that Surefire is not up to par with Fenix. *It's the Surefire lovers who say that Fenix is not in the same league as Surefire when all evidence states otherwise. That's the problem.*



Everyone is assuming that if you bash one brand, you must not have tried it. Otherwise, you would _obviously_ know better.

What about the brand X owners who are disappointed with brand X and decided to go with brand Y, who is more reliable with better features (and who just happens to also be cheaper than brand X )?? This is clearly recognized with other products and brands, so why is the stretch to flashlights so hard to make for some people?


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## Dreck (Mar 28, 2008)

It's a Surefire thing...if I have to explain you wouldn't understand.


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## Fooboy (Mar 28, 2008)

Lol.

Skyline_Man's first thread at CPF (bashing SureFire) ... closed within 4 posts. 

http://candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=162817

You all should read a few of his previous posts before you respond seriously.

**********

Regarding Surefire vs. other lights ... they are all useful in their own right. I think the comparison between cars is adequate. 

Lets say Mercedes vs. Honda

I own a 2004 Honda Accord V6. I love it. Gets me from A to B, 240 hp, leather, not too expensive. Its a good value, TO ME. I don't own a luxury car like a mercedes but I've driven/ridden in them (or the like, BMW M3, Lexus etc) plenty of times. And although I wouldn't spend the money on one I could see why someone would. They hug the road, soundproofing is amazing ... almost no road noise, powertrain is powerful yet smooth, trim is impeccable. There is an attention to detail that is tangible.

Sure, a Honda can get you from A to B just like a $80,000 mercedes ... heck, you can buy a subaru that could get you there faster than mercedes at 1/4 the price ... and thats fine.

Some people appreciate the finer things and are willing to pay for it. Nothing wrong with that either. 

:candle:

I'm new to flashlights but I like surefires. Id rather buy something once, and not have to worry about it. However, I probably will get a fenix sometime soon. Nothing wrong with them either. 

Why does it have to be such an argument? Just buy both!


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## generic808 (Mar 28, 2008)

BabyDoc said:


> Have you ever owned a SureFire?. (I own an A2, EL2, EB1, and an L1.) I would tend to doubt you have.. It sounds like you are convinced it isn't worth owning. However, if you did own a SureFire, then perhaps you could talk from experience and say Fenix, from your experience, WAS in the same league. Nobody could then argue with that opinion, although we might still differ. Even if you don't own a SureFire, I don't think this is worth arguing about. You are still entitled to your opinion, and I am glad you are enjoying what you have. That's really all that counts.


 
Totally agree. If those bashing end up owning a SF of their own, I'm sure their minds will change. Hey, some lights will be brighter, some will have more features, etc. But when it comes to build quality, there is no comparison!


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## Marduke (Mar 28, 2008)

generic808 said:


> Totally agree. If those bashing end up owning a SF of their own, I'm sure their minds will change. Hey, some lights will be brighter, some will have more features, etc. But when it comes to build quality, there is no comparison!




And I'm willing to bet a fair number of people "doing the bashing" do/have own(ed) SureFire, and are speaking from experience. Just read all the posts all over CPF of people who are fed up with having to contact SF's CS for warranty service. A light shouldn't use as many switches as it does batteries.


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## ultimaonliner (Mar 28, 2008)

Fird said:


> Marketing.



Maybe Fenix should make their flashlights heavier, dimmer, with shorter runtimes, less compact, and double the price if they want to be as good as Surefire?

If those things don't work, they could have them made here in the U.S., assembled by the lowest paid, least educated, least motivated Americans who would want to have a career working on a flashlight assembly line.


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## js (Mar 28, 2008)

Well, I had hoped things would improve, or at least not devolve, but it appears that was not to be.

I think everyone has had their say at this point. We're done here.

Thread closed.


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