# Which rechargeable CR 123A's to use?



## ultimaonliner (Jan 18, 2008)

Hi,

I am new to the world of LED flashlights but am completely fascinated by it and have grown to really appreciate everybody's expertise here.

After spending a lot of time on these forums, I've ordered the following flashlights for EDC and to leave in wife's and my car.

Fenix P1D-CE Q5 (CR123Ax1)

MTE Cree 5 Mode Q5 (AAx1)
http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.10688

Ultrafire 602C 5 Mode Q5 (CR123Ax1)
http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.10806


I probably should have asked this question before I placed the order, but I think I can still cancel the order I placed at Thomas Distributing for the following rechargeable RCR 123A's:

*TYSONIC RCR-123A RECHARGEABLE BATTERY & BATTERY CHARGER SET*
http://thomasdistributing.com/shop/...html?SP_id=&osCsid=rf749noipsbje2jlute3jbost3

I was split between ordering 3.0v vs 3.7v rechargeable 123A's, but I was worried about damaging the Fenix P1D-CE Q5 driver and wasn't sure after reading the P1D-CQ Q5 CPF review whether or not I would be able to use the different intensity modes reliably if I used a 3.7v.

I checked out Battery Junction and tried to figure out what the Fenix store sold for rechargeables, but wasn't sure what "AW" rechargeables were or what the specifications were.

Could somebody tell me if the Tysonic batteries I ordered will be more than just okay? Should I cancel the order and buy a different recharger and battery set?

Thanks in advance


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## Ryanrpm (Jan 18, 2008)

I am kind of on the same quest...looking for the best recharbeable cr123's for my T1. Well, I emailed FenixTactical and here is what they said and my first question below it: 

Hi Ryan,

I would strongly recommend Tenergy charger with batteries - this is one of the best chargers for Fenix lights - it is straight 3V in comparison with 3.7V from Ultrafire, they have great capacity and proven to provide great source of energy for the years to come! 

Sincerely,
Alex


On Jan 18, 2008 9:56 AM, Ryanrpm wrote:


I have a question about battery compatability to the Fenix T1 light.
Will the Ultrafire RCR123A 3.7V 750mah Protected Li-Ion Rechargeable 
Batteries which are sold on your website work with the Fenix T1?






So, looks like my mind is made up....I'll be going with Tenergy 3.0v. They appear to be a solid battery...good quality.

Hope this helps.​


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## ultimaonliner (Jan 18, 2008)

I almost ordered the Tenergy 3.0v too 
Thomas Distributing already shipped my order, so I guess I'm stuck with Tysonic for now.

Thanks for your help. I at least feel better getting the 3.0v over the 3.7v!


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## DM51 (Jan 19, 2008)

This thread belongs in the 'Batteries Included' section, so I'm moving it there now.


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## mdocod (Jan 19, 2008)

about the safest and most decent RCR123s I think you can get are probably these:

http://www.cpfmarketplace.com/mp/showthread.php?t=144427

you can also get them here:
http://www.cpfmarketplace.com/mp/showthread.php?t=173892
and here:
http://www.lighthound.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=1155

But the Fenix doesn't support these cells, the 602C does, but the fenix will require a 3.0V regulated Li-Ion cell to work right... in which case I would probably suggest a LiFeP04 3.0V cell for both lights to keep things simple:
http://batteryjunction.com/rc375reliba.html
http://batteryjunction.com/2rc375reliba.html
http://www.batteryspace.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=3475
http://www.batteryspace.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=3478
http://www.all-battery.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=1014
http://www.all-battery.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=1015


Since you are planning on leaving these in a car, LiFeP04 is the smart way to go, the runtime will stink compared with the stock CR123 primary cell, but the LiFeP04 cell is the safest of the options that you can trust in the heat of summer or cold of winter not to have a catastrophic failure.


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## ultimaonliner (Jan 19, 2008)

Thanks for those links. It seems that everybody on CPF recommends the AW brand or Tenergy.

I'm stuck right now since Thomas Distributing has already shipped their Tysonic 3.0v RCR 123A's. I suppose I could try getting some of the 3.7v AW or Tenergies, too.

BTW, now that I just found this "Flashlight Electronics - Batteries Included" forum, I think I'm going to be up for another few weeks reading late night! This stuff never gets boring.


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## LiteShow (Jan 19, 2008)

I use AW's LiFEPo4 in my EDC P1D Q5. 

http://www.cpfmarketplace.com/mp/showthread.php?t=125353

It's at 3.2 volts so all the 5 modes on the P1D Q5 work perfectly. If you use the 3.7 volt Li-ion cells, not all modes of your P1D Q5 will work - you lose the hight and low modes. Not sure about your other light.

I have been using the cells for over a week and am pretty please with them. The main reason I chose this is a safety reason even though the runtime is lower than the standard Li-ion rechargeables. After combing this site about venting Li-ion incidents in single/multiple cell lights, I've decided that safety issue is more critical than run-time, especially if the light is sitting in my jeans pocket all the time.

Depending on your usage habits, I simply change my cells every few days and carry a spare in my car or backpack. Since these cells are not protected, just make sure you don't run them down too low - that's why I just change them after a few days regardless. There is no danger of exploding if you over-discharge them, but you might risk damaging the cell. So far, it works for me and I am very please with them. 

Dennis


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## ultimaonliner (Jan 20, 2008)

All the info is great! The 3.2v AW RCR 123A sounds like it would fit my needs best since I want to be able to run the P1D Q5 on its lowest setting sometimes.

It seems from just reading the past few hours, that I should have started thinking about the rechargeable battery FIRST, then think about what kind of flashlight I want based on the battery. I should have searched for a flashlight with an emitter and driver designed for an 18650 battery (which it seems has the highest charge density?) instead of an CR 123A.

I have to read more about the explosion issue to decide if I should return the Tysonics (which I assume are not LiFePO4) with a possible restocking fee to buy the AW 3.2v RCR 123. Do any other batteries besides the AW have this vented safety feature?

Is it too "dangerous" for me to walk around with a P1D CE Q5 using "traditional" non-LiFePO4 batteries? Would it also be too dangerous for me to leave the Deal Extreme Ultrafire Q5 with a primary nonrechargeable CR123A sitting in my wife's car?

It goes without saying that I don't want a flashlight to explode in my wife's car


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## Oddjob (Jan 20, 2008)

ultimaonliner said:


> ...Is it too "dangerous" for me to walk around with a P1D CE Q5 using "traditional" non-LiFePO4 batteries? Would it also be too dangerous for me to leave the Deal Extreme Ultrafire Q5 with a primary nonrechargeable CR123A sitting in my wife's car?
> 
> It goes without saying that I don't want a flashlight to explode in my wife's car


 
Reputable brand name lithium primaries (non rechargeable 3v) are quite safe and are much more tolerant of heat and cold compared to alkaline batteries. If you are going to use rechargeable litium ions you would be wise to invest in a digital multimetre. You can use it to determine how much juice is left in a li-on battery plus if you use a multicell light (using primaries) you can make sure the voltages match so as not to cause any problems.


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## mdocod (Jan 20, 2008)

li-ions very rarely fail violently during a discharge or while just sitting in a light.. though it has happened before..... things that can cause a violent li-ion event:
1. Overdischarging and or overcharging the cell repeatedly can lead to a flaming cell while charging.
2. physical damage to cell (puncture, cut, dent)
3. short circuit on an unprotected cell. 

otherwise a li-ion cell simply sitting in your flashlight is very safe in the grand scheme of things... look around at how many Laptops and Cell phones we allow on airplanes. If it were a ticking time bomb that stuff would be grounded.


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## 42 (Jan 20, 2008)

What's the difference between a 16340 and an RCR123A?


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## mdocod (Jan 21, 2008)

42 said:


> What's the difference between a 16340 and an RCR123A?



basically nothing. however, "16340" really ONLY describes size, and does not specify anything about being a primary or secondary cell, while the "RCR123A" is commonly used when referring to a secondary cell (the "R" in the front makes this differentiation)


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## Albinoni (Jan 21, 2008)

Does anyone know if Sanyo will release an Eneloop version of a CR123A battery? Sanyo are one of the largest battery manufacturers in the world and would be good if they did. I have not seen Energizer or Duracell also briing out a rechargeable version of these batts either, as they will make their money on the normal 3V CR123A lithiums.

I live in Perth, WA and I know that I can get 2xCR123A's plus the charger for approx $35, but I'm not sure how good the battery quality is and how long they hold their charge for. I suppose its all trial and error and you pay for what you get.

Also how many volts is a rechargeable CR123A battery versus a normal CR123A lithium.

Thank you


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## mdocod (Jan 21, 2008)

eneloops are NIMH and have nothing to do with lithium chemistry cells. The whole reason "eneloop" or "low self discharge" cells were brought to the market was to address the issues plaguing regular 1.2V NIMH rechargeable cells. Li-Ion chemistry does not suffer from the self-discharge issues that NIMH cells have, so there is no reason for "eneloop" to ever have anything to do with a rechargeable Li-Ion cell. 

lithium primary cells (lithium manganese dioxide) are ~3.2V fresh out of the package and deliver around 2.2-3.0V into a wide range of loads (high current loads will result in lower voltage while in use).

lithium rechargeable cells (Li-Ion) come in many breeds:
Lithium cobalt oxide cells are 3.7V, come fresh off the charger at 4.2V and are "dead" around 3.0V under a load.
Lithium Iron Phosphate cells are ~3.2V, come fresh off the charger ~3.6V, and can be discharged to around 2.0V under a load. (varies by cell manufacture).
Both rechargeable breeds can also be found with voltage regulation devices inside that will attempt to hold the voltage down around 3.0-3.2V under a load to make these cells more compatible with some more sensitive devices. A different charging method is required for each type of cell (4 common cells in all).


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## Albinoni (Jan 22, 2008)

mdocod said:


> eneloops are NIMH and have nothing to do with lithium chemistry cells. The whole reason "eneloop" or "low self discharge" cells were brought to the market was to address the issues plaguing regular 1.2V NIMH rechargeable cells. Li-Ion chemistry does not suffer from the self-discharge issues that NIMH cells have, so there is no reason for "eneloop" to ever have anything to do with a rechargeable Li-Ion cell.
> 
> lithium primary cells (lithium manganese dioxide) are ~3.2V fresh out of the package and deliver around 2.2-3.0V into a wide range of loads (high current loads will result in lower voltage while in use).
> 
> ...



My apologies here but I'm getting my chemistry mixed up. What I was meant to say was that for Sanyo to release Eneloops but in the CR123A size and also to be NiMH. So basically we could say a CR123A with NiMH chemistry but something that will last for 1 yr.


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## Marduke (Jan 22, 2008)

Albinoni said:


> My apologies here but I'm getting my chemistry mixed up. What I was meant to say was that for Sanyo to release Eneloops but in the CR123A size and also to be NiMH. So basically we could say a CR123A with NiMH chemistry but something that will last for 1 yr.



DIFFERENT CHEMISTRIES!!!

Lithium primary doesn't self discharge much at all. If you want long term storage, use that.


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## mdocod (Jan 22, 2008)

actually I think eneloop NIMH still self discharges at least as fast as Li-Ion, so there would be nothing to gain, the other problem is that it would only be a 1.2V cell... So if you are looking for a 1.2V NIMH cell that is the size of a CR123, your best bet is to check out cells sold as 2/3A NIMH cells, they are a little smaller though, usually about 15x28mm.


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## Marduke (Jan 22, 2008)

Li-ion self-discharges about 5% in the first 24 hours and 1-2% per month after. A protection circuit increases the self-discharge to up to 10% per month.


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## DM51 (Jan 22, 2008)

Marduke, my own observations do not fit with your figures. I have not seen anything like 5% discharge in Li-Ion cells in the first 24 hours - not even 0.5% in that time. If you have any cells that are doing that, their retirement is not far off.

1% - 2% per month is also higher than I have observed. 1% would be a fair average, with some lower and some higher. Protected cells do self-discharge faster than unprotected, but nothing like 10% per month in my experience. 2% would be very worst case. 

A lot will depend on storage conditions and state of charge when stored.


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## Marduke (Jan 22, 2008)

DM51 said:


> Marduke, my own observations do not fit with your figures. I have not seen anything like 5% discharge in Li-Ion cells in the first 24 hours - not even 0.5% in that time. If you have any cells that are doing that, their retirement is not far off.
> 
> 1% - 2% per month is also higher than I have observed. 1% would be a fair average, with some lower and some higher. Protected cells do self-discharge faster than unprotected, but nothing like 10% per month in my experience. 2% would be very worst case.
> 
> A lot will depend on storage conditions and state of charge when stored.



*ALL* cell chemistries loose quite a bit from the time you take them off the charger, to about 24 hours later (NiMH included, just different %). That is why it is usually advised to NOT use Li-Ion hot off the charger, as the extra voltage can damage some equipment not designed for a higher voltage. This is why you let a cell "rest" before you use it.

The self-discharge of Li-Ion is also a function of the actual degradation of the cell, a % capacity lost each month since manufacture of the cell, no matter how it's used. The cell will never be able to regain this lost capacity. This is the same loss if the cell is protected or not.

Modern, _efficient_ protection circuits run about 3% discharge per month on smaller cells. Obviously, this would be less on larger cells. Although the protection circuit draws the same no matter the cell size, it draws a smaller % of the cell's total capacity (ie. protected 18650 vs smaller protected proprietary prismatic cell). Some older or less efficient protection circuitry can drain a cell much faster, *up to* 10% per month. My old Palm Zire 31 for example will drain itself entirely in less than a year when not used, to the point that the entire memory is reset.

Try charging a Li-Ion up, and doing an immediate discharge test to determine capacity. Then, charge the cell back up, and do the same discharge test to determine capacity after letting the cell rest for about a week. I think you'll be surprised with the results.


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## mdocod (Jan 22, 2008)

> Try charging a Li-Ion up, and doing an immediate discharge test to determine capacity. Then, charge the cell back up, and do the same discharge test to determine capacity after letting the cell rest for about a week. I think you'll be surprised with the results.



try the same thing with an eneloop?!?! I think the results will be even more suprising 

while I haven't done this exact test, I do know that open circuit voltage of a li-ion cell is directly correlated to charge level. Good new Li-Ion cells in my experience come off the charger at 4.20V and stay there for weeks. As cells begin to age the phenomenon you describe becomes semi-true. The cells may come off the charger at 4.20V, but then settle to say, 4.10V within a few minutes. We don't have a lot of information available about the effects of eneloops self-discharge as the cells are used/aged... I'm willing to bet that like all other NIMH cells, as you put more cycles on the eneloop, they too will develop increased self-discharge. 

The whole point was to say that the rate of self-discharge found in eneloops is not an advantage over the rate found in Li-ion cell, whether we go by my observations, your observations, or DM51s observations, it's still very easy to say that the rate of self-discharge found in eneloops doesn't have any substantial advantage or disadvantage compared to Li-Ion cells, protected or not. Both chemistries has relatively SLOW self-discharge rates and are great for most users in this respect.


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## DM51 (Jan 22, 2008)

Marduke, I think I will not enter into an argument about this right now. I would just say that I am no stranger to Li-Ion technology and use, and my observations differ from the figures you give.


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## Marduke (Jan 22, 2008)

mdocod said:


> try the same thing with an eneloop?!?! I think the results will be even more suprising



Actually, Eneloop's present a similar effect over the course of about a month, where the do most of their self discharge in a relatively short time. After that initial drop, the mellow out for the rest of at least a year.

I was trying to point out that neither tech has a linear self discharge.










mdocod said:


> The whole point was to say that the rate of self-discharge found in eneloops is not an advantage over the rate found in Li-ion cell, whether we go by my observations, your observations, or DM51s observations, it's still very easy to say that the rate of self-discharge found in eneloops doesn't have any substantial advantage or disadvantage compared to Li-Ion cells, protected or not. Both chemistries has relatively SLOW self-discharge rates and are great for most users in this respect.



I know, I was also trying to point out that neither chemistry really has an advantage over the other in terms of low self discharge. Modern Li-Ion and LSD NiMH have similar self discharge characteristics.


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## mdocod (Jan 22, 2008)

so we're both trying to make the same point? hmmm. this is no fun.. lets go back to thinking we are disagreeing...

my inner child thinks yure a poopoohead!


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## SilverFox (Jan 23, 2008)

Hello Marduke,



Marduke said:


> *ALL* cell chemistries loose quite a bit from the time you take them off the charger, to about 24 hours later (NiMH included, just different %). That is why it is usually advised to NOT use Li-Ion hot off the charger, as the extra voltage can damage some equipment not designed for a higher voltage. This is why you let a cell "rest" before you use it.



I disagree with you.

I agree that all chemistries loose their charge over time, but I disagree that Li-Ion cells loose "quite a bit." I should also point out that "resting" a cell or pack after charging applies to Nickel chemistry, not to Li-Ion chemistry. A Li-Ion cell will only exhibit a drop in voltage in direct relation to its state of health. As Li-Ion cells age, their internal resistance increases. If you are charging an aged cell to 4.2 volts and its capacity has dropped to 95% of its original capacity, it will come off the charger at 4.2 volts and quickly settle down to around 4.15 volts. After that, the voltage remains very stable and further "resting" has very little effect.

Two days ago, I charged 3 protected 18650 cells to 4.2 volts. I measured their voltage at 4.137 volts about an hour after coming off of the charger. I just measured their voltages again and all three are still at 4.137 volts. 

In addition, when I read your post I remembered that I had just charged 2 unprotected cells earlier yesterday morning. They were charged to 4.2 volts. I did not get their voltages an hour after the charge, but after around 12 hours their were at 4.198 volts each. I checked them again this morning and they are still at 4.198 volts each.

Yes, their voltages did drop, but I don't think they dropped "quite a bit."




Marduke said:


> Try charging a Li-Ion up, and doing an immediate discharge test to determine capacity. Then, charge the cell back up, and do the same discharge test to determine capacity after letting the cell rest for about a week. I think you'll be surprised with the results.



I went further than that and actually stored the cell for a year. You are correct, I was surprised with the results. After 1 year of room temperature storage my aged 18650 cell retained around 95% of its capacity. I was expecting a higher rate of self discharge.

This thread covered the discussion of that test.

Now, with that test I formally took voltage measurements and noted discharge capacities, however I have a few other Li-Ion cells in storage that are showing similar results. I check the voltage of these cells periodically and notice that they are remaining very stable. While these observations are "informal," they support the formal test results.

The low self discharge rate NiMh cells are a vast improvement over normal NiMh cells, but they still have a higher self discharge rate than the current Li-Ion cells. 

Tom


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## xevious (Jan 26, 2008)

I have a side question... regarding RCR123A cells.

AW protected is rated at 750mAh. Battery Station's cells are 900mAh. It's my understanding that the higher the mAh rating, the longer runtime you get. But, I saw Battery Station give a disclaimer on not using more than one RCR123A cell at a time. I don't see AW making that statement. Battery Station seems reputable, but I noticed AW supports some extra protection (PTC-thermal). In the case of Li-Ion cells, the safer the better in my book. Is AW the brand of choice in this case?


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## Bullzeyebill (Jan 26, 2008)

xevious said:


> I have a side question... regarding RCR123A cells.
> 
> AW protected is rated at 750mAh. Battery Station's cells are 900mAh. It's my understanding that the higher the mAh rating, the longer runtime you get. But, I saw Battery Station give a disclaimer on not using more than one RCR123A cell at a time. I don't see AW making that statement. Battery Station seems reputable, but I noticed AW supports some extra protection (PTC-thermal). In the case of Li-Ion cells, the safer the better in my book. Is AW the brand of choice in this case?



RCR123, 3.6-4.2, are not holding any more than 600mAh under load. See SilverFox's LiIon Battery Shootout.

Bill


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## xevious (Jan 27, 2008)

Bullzeyebill said:


> RCR123, 3.6-4.2, are not holding any more than 600mAh under load. See SilverFox's LiIon Battery Shootout.
> 
> Bill


Thanks! It seems that even in the battery arena, exaggerations are to be found on ratings. AW seems to be the most trusted. And I'm staying away from Ultrafire.


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## Probedude (Jan 27, 2008)

xevious said:


> Thanks! It seems that even in the battery arena, exaggerations are to be found on ratings. AW seems to be the most trusted. And I'm staying away from Ultrafire.



It's been going on a LONG time for batteries. Some brands worse than others.


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