# I'm pretty sure I have discovered a new Hotwire bulb



## missionaryman (Jul 3, 2007)

With the help of NorthernLights (thanks very much for ordering and delivering to Aus for me) and AWR's Hotrater I have discovered a new superbulb that I don't think anyone has used before.

Testing it in my regulated (9.5v) M-64 set up it is definitely brighter than the 1164 and costs about the same - best of all you can get it any time you want from a good online bulb retailer.

From AWR's Hotrater, dropping it into the same light that produces 1000 Torch lumen using the WA1164 you get 2000 lumen - that's right, double the 1164's output in a the same light.

Here are some pics I took, sorry these are about the worst beamshots I've done but it illustrates the point adequately:

This is the Host, a bored out 2D running 8 Titanium Powermax 1800's + an axillary cell that fit's neatly in the tailcap - a 4/5 Sub C 1900mah fitted with a Hotdriver set to 9.5v; you need this much juice as this bulb draws 7+ amps.






Here is a beamshot with the 1164 - 1000 Lumen:





Here is a beamshot with the new bulb - 2000 Lumen:





The new bulb is:

Osram 64430, 6v 35w 2000hr 650L, when driven at 9.6v that rises to almost 3000 B-Lumen or 2000 T-Lumen


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## Glen C (Jul 3, 2007)

Well done Missionaryman and Northern Lights


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## waynejitsu (Jul 3, 2007)

Please Pm where I can get this bulb and info on it.
thanks!!!


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## LuxLuthor (Jul 3, 2007)

Nice score! Did you find a cheaper source than this $13 price?


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## missionaryman (Jul 4, 2007)

LuxLuthor said:


> Nice score! Did you find a cheaper source than this $13 price?


 
No sorry, in fact that was the only place I think we (NorthernLights) & I could find them and I can't even get any info on them at the Osram website.The other alternative is the Westinghouse 04424 which will give 1500 T-Lumen in the same set up drawing the same amps.Both the Westinghouse and the Osram are larger than the WA1164 and give a floodier beam. The light is very white though, whiter than the 1164 which is very white.


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## LuxLuthor (Jul 4, 2007)

OK, I'll pick up a few. It is weird why some Osram bulbs on not listed on their website like the 64625 or 64275.

How did you guys find that bulb if it is not listed on either Osram or Bulb Connection? Very clever with the 4/5 Sub-C in tailcap. I think I'll make a pack and shrinkwrap it since I got that battery tab welder. What did you use to bore out the 2D ? I'm getting a selection of Brake Cylinder Hones that fit in your drill, and grind down with the three stones shown in these pix.


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## FILIPPO (Jul 4, 2007)

wow!!!! I have some questions...

1)can I run this bulb in a mag3D with FM battery older(3d>9AA) + 1dummy cell?

2)does this bulb fit in a FM MOP reflector?


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## Glen C (Jul 4, 2007)

Missionaryman, are you bringing this to the next meet?


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## LuxLuthor (Jul 4, 2007)

I know you likely cannot push it quite this hard, but it's funny to see how it comes out in his Hotrater. I have 3 coming.


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## missionaryman (Jul 4, 2007)

LuxLuthor said:


> OK, I'll pick up a few. It is weird why some Osram bulbs on not listed on their website like the 64625 or 64275.
> 
> How did you guys find that bulb if it is not listed on either Osram or Bulb Connection? Very clever with the 4/5 Sub-C in tailcap. I think I'll make a pack and shrinkwrap it since I got that battery tab welder. What did you use to bore out the 2D ? I'm getting a selection of Brake Cylinder Hones that fit in your drill, and grind down with the three stones shown in these pix.


Thanks - the 8AA's just weren't getting anywhere near 9.6v even with the 1164
I got MirageMan to do it for me, your method will work, Proteaus did the same thing with his M4 to fit 18650's. Here's the tip - use a spray lubricant


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## missionaryman (Jul 4, 2007)

FILIPPO said:


> wow!!!! I have some questions...
> 
> 1)can I run this bulb in a mag3D with FM battery older(3d>9AA) + 1dummy cell?
> 
> 2)does this bulb fit in a FM MOP reflector?


Flippo - you ca run this set up but I would tend to go for 9AA's of the high current variety with a Hotdriver as there won't be enough voltage from 8 and the initial burst will probably blow the bulb from 9

It will fit into any reflector with a 12mm opening. I used a countersinking bit in my drill press and reamed it from the outside till it was just big enough


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## missionaryman (Jul 4, 2007)

LuxLuthor said:


> I know you likely cannot push it quite this hard, but it's funny to see how it comes out in his Hotrater. I have 3 coming.


I'm pushing it to 9.45v at the bulb pins and I think it could handle the little bit extra. But mine is soft-start regulated


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## missionaryman (Jul 4, 2007)

Glen C said:


> Missionaryman, are you bringing this to the next meet?


I'll probably not be at the next meet, got way too much on with 2 boys and a wife who rarely see me. And yous keep having them so far away from the western suburbs, I think we need some more low income flashaholics in Sydney so the meets aren't always so far from me.


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## TorchBoy (Jul 4, 2007)

LuxLuthor said:


> I know you likely cannot push it quite this hard, but it's funny to see how it comes out in his Hotrater.


You *have* learned. Bravo. :twothumbs


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## Glen C (Jul 4, 2007)

missionaryman said:


> I'll probably not be at the next meet, got way too much on with 2 boys and a wife who rarely see me. And yous keep having them so far away from the western suburbs, I think we need some more low income flashaholics in Sydney so the meets aren't always so far from me.


 

Sorry Missionaryman, I thought you were near Ryde. We may have to find a dark geographic centre


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## Northern Lights (Jul 4, 2007)

Well, I did not get my 2D bored yet!! *So I built a boring machine* and it is working, been getting the bugs out of it on some old mag bodies. Soon I will have my 2dm64 and 2dm64430 up and running. 
But my pet project is to build one in a 3D or 4C (C will take a chargin jack) with safe lithium A123system 3.3 V, 2300mAh, 26650 batteries taken from a DeWalt pack. If the 63440 does not handle the voltage, 9.9 volts, I can easily soft start and add enough residual resistance with an NTC to cut the voltage. AW's new driver will handle this very well with any of the options. The 63440 is about twice as bright as a 1164 and uses twice the amps, so AW's C cannot handle the 7+ amp draw for teh 63440 unless you start using parallel packs.
These batteries can be charged in series, no worry about balancing, safe lithium chemistry. Dewalt 36v pack uses www.a123Sytems.com
The 63440 is a G6.5 base. I make G4 to bipin sockets with mill-max connectors and it is a cinch to adapt a G6.5 with another model connector. I think I will soon offer my surplus G4s, I had to order materials in quantity just to make my own sockets so I have a bunch of extras.


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## Northern Lights (Jul 5, 2007)

LuxLuthor said:


> I know you likely cannot push it quite this hard, but it's funny to see how it comes out in his Hotrater. I have 3 coming.


 
This is more like what I get, at 9.9V I get about 2200+:


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## LuxLuthor (Jul 5, 2007)

Northern Lights said:


> This is more like what I get, at 9.9V I get about 2200+:



Careful, you'll have Torchy-Boy ripping on you now for such a flagrant violation of his lofty ideals for that claim. (They seem to have run out of shrimps on the Bar-Bee, down under, so he has been learning what T-Lum's means.)

How did you find this bulb when it was not listed at Osram or Bulb Connect?


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## Northern Lights (Jul 5, 2007)

LuxLuthor said:


> Careful, you'll have Torchy-Boy ripping on you now for such a flagrant violation of his lofty ideals for that claim. (They seem to have run out of shrimps on the Bar-Bee, down under, so he has been learning what T-Lum's means.)
> 
> How did you find this bulb when it was not listed at Osram or Bulb Connect?


That is nothing, you realize this is the second bulb that out does the 1164 *missionaryman* has located in two months! Westinghouse 04424 was back ordered and he found the 63440 before our package came. I returned the 04424s. I do not know what his secret is, but he is gifted in thinking outside of the paradigm. I know he was keying in on the 2000 hour bulb life to find candidates. Bulb life is the path to a good candidate. 
I keep looking to the RC guys to find possible battery combinations to incorporate into incan mods.
I notice in CPF that many confuse t-lumens with b-lumens or do not realize there is a difference. We all have seen posts about astounding outputs which are no more than bulb-lumens under the most ideal conditions. I like the hotrator because to some extent it takes into account real world resistance and battery sag. A half a volt at the bulb can make about 100 torch-lumens difference in out put on such things as the 63440, 1111, 5761 and 1185. Unless great care is taken in modding the swithces, sockets and tail cap you do not get that ideal out put because of native resitance in the circuit. Putting in a pr to bipin socket and reflector and a couple of batteries into a flashlight is not a sucessful mod, the output is impressive to the uninitiated but unless the other issues are taken care of there are a lot of lumens missing in action. I wince at claims, e.g.; 1185 with "over 1000 lumens out put"! What does that mean exactly? Stuff like that was so confusing when I first started playing with mods until I realized there were good technical discussions and very hopeful discussions residing in the forums.
There are other factors to consider too, that being what is the end goal, lumens or application. LL I believe you and I covered in another discussion that for instance the 5761 probably does not reach its full efficiency and brightness in a 2C configuration but if carrying a 2C size light is the consideration than the 5761 is probably the brightest combination for that host. 
I think the 5761 had something to do with leading *missionaryman *down the road he travelled in a quest that brought him here to this light. You too have a great collection and know by direct and infered comparison from so much experience that if *missionaryman *says he sees double the out put then there is double the out put. The number crunching is just another support to the observer's report. Well, done to my friend *missionaryman.*


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## missionaryman (Jul 5, 2007)

Thanks NL for the support & for your help in ordering and everything else, you're a top bloke.

I have mucked around with heaps of incan mods and have found this combination to be one of my favorites because it gives you a Hi/Lo option, keep an 1164 in the tailcap for low beam (1000 Lumens!). 
Before this bulb I think 2000 TL at sub 12v was not a possibility. 

It's not however a noticeable 100% increase in brightness to the eye for 3 reasons. 
1. The eye is not a light meter and sees relatively so it looks brighter but not amazingly brighter, it does however get paper burning faster than the 1164 
2. Voltage sag, even with "high current" Titanium Powermax cells the voltage sage at the bulb drops it to 9.4v so there's potentially another 200 Lumens in it.
3. The larger filament = a floodier beam so there's more light but over a greater area, there is however a tighter spot than say a 64623

My ideal set up for this light engine would be 9 x 4/3 A in a bored out 3.5D with a Hotdriver HP (re-rated to 9.6v you have about 70 watts), these cells are normally around 4000mah and will hold voltage under high currents. You'd get about 30mins regulated run time or nearly an hour with the 1164. Now that's almost practical, you'd just need to carry an oven mitt with you.


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## Northern Lights (Jul 5, 2007)

My incomplete 2D has nine gp2000 to go into it, 4/5 A, in very early threads AWR reported those to be more like 2200mAh batteries. I believe from all the top hot wires I have read about that any A size batteries hold against high loads very well. My driver is set to 9.6 so that should be nice little light if I ever get it assembled. 
I may need a fire suit if they get that hot. It was 112 degrees F here on the 4th and the night time was still about 100. I had no desire to play outside in the dark. 
If you can burn paper, maybe they could be useful against insect pest. When fishing I often run the propane lantern in the tent or camper a while before retiring, the flying pests like mosquitos commit hari kari into that flame and that is a bit more healthier than breathing insecticide residues! Next time I hear the buzzing by my ear a well place beam shot could clear the air, you think?


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## Bob_G (Jul 5, 2007)

> but if carrying a 2C size light is the consideration than the 5761 is probably the brightest combination for that host.


I think I have to sort of maybe challenge that. You're probably right in some pure factual sense, at least for a short time, but I run two 1160 lights at 6.9V and this to me would be a better (best) solution for the 2C Li-Ion. The 1160 rerates to 11.5 hr life at 6.9V, and 6.9 hr at 7.2V if you want to live dangerously  1008 and 1170 BL respectively (this all at WA re-rater.) The beam is the best of the WA bulbs to me (smallest filament of the lot I think,) and litho123's "lightly frosted" bulbs are spectacular in a light reflector - mine is in a LOP IIRC. 

On another note, be careful with the hotdriver and the GP cells, or any truly high current cells. It wasn't really designed with them in mind, and their increased voltage holding can be just enough to fry the FET.

On the bug issue, I was out back (live in the country) walking with my dog, as I do every night, with a LED light (sorry Lux) and got clumsy. I had a smoke and the light in the same hand, needed something from my pocket, so brought my hand up to put the cigarette in my mouth and promptly brought a swarm of bugs into mouth and face as well from the LED they'd been following. Lesson learned


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## choppers (Jul 5, 2007)

Wow this is sweet! Great job *missionaryman.* I would like to use 3D with 9AA's, where can I get a hotdriver that you guys speak of? Anyone?

Thanks


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## LuxLuthor (Jul 5, 2007)

choppers said:


> Wow this is sweet! Great job *missionaryman.* I would like to use 3D with 9AA's, *where can I get a hotdriver* that you guys speak of? Anyone?
> 
> Thanks



PM me


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## Northern Lights (Jul 5, 2007)

Bob_G said:


> I think I have to sort of maybe challenge that. You're probably right in some pure factual sense, at least for a short time, but I run two 1160 lights at 6.9V and this to me would be a better (best) solution for the 2C Li-Ion. The 1160 rerates to 11.5 hr life at 6.9V, and 6.9 hr at 7.2V if you want to live dangerously  1008 and 1170 BL respectively (this all at WA re-rater.) The beam is the best of the WA bulbs to me (smallest filament of the lot I think,) and litho123's "lightly frosted" bulbs are spectacular in a light reflector - mine is in a LOP IIRC.
> 
> On another note, be careful with the hotdriver and the GP cells, or any truly high current cells. It wasn't really designed with them in mind, and their increased voltage holding can be just enough to fry the FET.
> 
> On the bug issue, I was out back (live in the country) walking with my dog, as I do every night, with a LED light (sorry Lux) and got clumsy. I had a smoke and the light in the same hand, needed something from my pocket, so brought my hand up to put the cigarette in my mouth and promptly brought a swarm of bugs into mouth and face as well from the LED they'd been following. Lesson learned


I love lightly frosted bulbs, that is what I do to the 5761. One thing about the 5761 it is more available than the WA bulbs. I went through a dry spell and was so happy that you had posted more on the 5761, that helped me along.
Back in the day, when I got th hot driver it supposedly was custom made for the 9x gp2000 cells. Once I turn it on we will find out.


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## Bob_G (Jul 5, 2007)

Ahh, no wonder you love the 5761 so much. I run one "frosted" with a Dremel, but you can't really get it even without doing it heavy. I don't have the nerve to mess with chemicals. But the heavy frosted one is still pretty nice in a SMO - a lightly frosted one would be great, just what the bulb needs.

You bring up good point on availability - finding a bulb you like and can work with that's easily available online, instead of having to rely on the good graces of someone like Greg is a huge benefit in the long run.


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## Northern Lights (Jul 5, 2007)

Armour etch is available from most hobby and crafts stores. It is quite benign. I frost the lower 2/3 of a bulb, because above the filament no shadow is cast but frosting does use some, very little, lumens. A light frost on the 5761 is 15-20 minutes, 30 is OK, but I like the effect of the light etching.
I would think mechanical etching nicks the glass that will lead to envelope failure. Chemical etching leaves a smoth surface not prone to contain stress marks in the surface.


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## LuxLuthor (Jul 6, 2007)

Northern Lights said:


> Armour etch is available from most hobby and crafts stores. It is quite benign. I frost the lower 2/3 of a bulb, because above the filament no shadow is cast but frosting does use some, very little, lumens. A light frost on the 5761 is 15-20 minutes, 30 is OK, but I like the effect of the light etching.
> I would think mechanical etching nicks the glass that will lead to envelope failure. Chemical etching leaves a smoth surface not prone to contain stress marks in the surface.



How do you do that frosting more precisely so you don't mess things up? I would like to try using that Armour Etch which I never heard of before.

Oh for those (i.e. Choppers) that never heard of AWR's HotDriver, here is a picture of them combined with a KIU heatsink mounted on top of a Maglite switch. They can be set between 5-16V by putting a small screwdriver in one or the other of those two holes shown by the arrow (one is fine, other is course adjustment), while keeping your DMM probes in the two top bipin holes once installed in your light and batteries turned on.


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## Northern Lights (Jul 6, 2007)

LuxLuthor said:


> How do you do that frosting more precisely so you don't mess things up? I would like to try using that Armour Etch which I never heard of before.
> 
> Oh for those (i.e. Choppers) that never heard of AWR's HotDriver, here is a picture of them combined with a KIU heatsink mounted on top of a Maglite switch. They can be set between 5-16V by putting a small screwdriver in one or the other of those two holes shown by the arrow (one is fine, other is course adjustment), while keeping your DMM probes in the two top bipin holes once installed in your light and batteries turned on.


I read all about armour etch for years on cpf. I searched the keyword, armour etch and got 31 finds, here is the oldest:
http://candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=27623&highlight=armour+etch back in '03 but it is worth reading. 
The frosted bulb in that photo is way too heavy for what I do with it, you barely see the frosting on some of mine. Just frost 15 minutes at a time, wash it in running water with a old tooth brush and spray of with alcohol to dry. Test it it and go another 15 minutes until you find your sweet spot.
You can get it cheaply from Michael's craft stores
It is pasty and easly to apply. You could dip it but I am more accurate with a cotton swab. A small brush would work. Different mineral glass etches at different rates. The 5761 at 15-30 minutes has been ok with the bottle I have. A bottle will last for years since you only use a dab per bulb.


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## LuxLuthor (Jul 6, 2007)

Just found a Michaels today and picked some of that up. You said you like to paint the bottom half where the artifact reflection is more pronounced? That sounds like a nice idea, but reading that thread you just linked seemed to talk more about the benefit of frosting the tip; whereas frosting middle or below seemed to reduce output. Interesting what Ginseng said in his post 29 in that other thread that it won't work on Carley or WA bulbs, in which case he uses Dremel with #411 coarse sanding discs.


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## yellow (Jul 6, 2007)

think of where the artifacts come from:
the reflected light!
so frosting the upper part will just have some (bad) results for the spill but will not change any artifact, shadow from the wire, ...

btw. I think frosting (even slightly) reduces brightness so much, that its of no use
I have switched all my frosted ones back to original


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## Northern Lights (Jul 6, 2007)

yellow said:


> think of where the artifacts come from:
> the reflected light!
> so frosting the upper part will just have some (bad) results for the spill but will not change any artifact, shadow from the wire, ...
> 
> ...


5761 has a big filament and can, with smooth reflectors, esspecially if you use focusable relflectors and run it open, flood, get some pronounced shadows. Sorry if I confused anyone where I put the cream.
I put the cream at the level of the filament down towards the pins. Any light that goes forward off the filament does not cast a shadow. Shadows come from support wires and the ends of the filament and are cast sideways and down into the reflector.
If you look straight on into a bulb I etch you see no frost, it is on the lower sides, filament down.


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## LuxLuthor (Jul 6, 2007)

I wonder how Litho frosted those 1185 and other WA bulbs he had a while back. They were all frosted on the front half (tip) of bulb.


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## Northern Lights (Jul 6, 2007)

LuxLuthor said:


> I wonder how Litho frosted those 1185 and other WA bulbs he had a while back. They were all frosted on the front half (tip) of bulb.


One way is to dip it.


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## LuxLuthor (Jul 7, 2007)

I meant the question more because in that other thread they said the glass was too hard to etch in WA and Carley bulbs.


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## Northern Lights (Jul 7, 2007)

LuxLuthor said:


> I meant the question more because in that other thread they said the glass was too hard to etch in WA and Carley bulbs.


I haven't tried carley but I was successful with WA 1111, 1160s and Pelican for the rop.


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## LuxLuthor (Jul 7, 2007)

In contrast to what they said in that other thread, did you pretty much always etch the bottom half of the bulb? That makes more sense to me since the filament reflecting back is what causes the artifact shadows.


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## Northern Lights (Jul 7, 2007)

LuxLuthor said:


> In contrast to what they said in that other thread, did you pretty much always etch the bottom half of the bulb? That makes more sense to me since the filament reflecting back is what causes the artifact shadows.


I tried one 1160 in a Mag Charger with a complete frost job and saw nothing gained over the lower frost technique, right from the beginning that did not make sense because I knew the filament casts its own shadow downward and understood anything that impedes the light, the frosting, or texture in the reflector reduces lumens. So I have always frosted the lower portion. Just logical. Unlike using VLOP, LOP and MOP reflectors, I can control the amount of diffused light with the extent of etching so I can taylor my output to the task. For me, I almost always want maximum throw, a higher presidence over the appearance of a smooth beam pattern. The heavier the frosting the more flood and diffused pattern. 
You will be surprised how far a little frosting can go. A bulb with very light and even blotchy looking frost will clean up a great deal of the shadow of the fillament support wires.


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## Bob_G (Jul 7, 2007)

I'd want to see some careful measurements before I believed that total flux was significantly affected by frosting the bulb. Not that I don't believe it, but my experience with a fair amount of experimentation is that it simply transfers the light to the spill. If a person was strongly disposed to spot oriented beams it could be disappointing, and flux may seem lower than maybe it really is. I've always assumed that with a clear envelope, the filament is the light source, and with a frosted bulb (fully frosted) the envelope itself is the light source, and this fits my subjective impression of the resulting beam. 

Using chemical frosting, and determining exactly where to "draw the line" you could achieve a good result, but I think overall, a lightly frosted full envelope might be more satisfactory for getting a B+ result with no work, or A+ if getting rid of ALL artifacts is a priority. In other words, for me the opacity of the frosting is more important than where it is on the envelope. Of course, I like smooth beams and don't mind some floodiness to get it. My heavily frosted 5761 in a SMO puts a _ton_ of light in the spill, so much that it's annoying on a dark dark night. But in higher ambient conditions, it's excellent.


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## LuxLuthor (Jul 7, 2007)

That makes sense for a floody artifact free bulb, but I'm with Northern and have always wanted throw when outside. It is one of the things I hate about SF lights...their heavily textured reflectors destroy throw. It's ok with an indoor L2 LED light, but I can't remember the last time I touched my M4 because of what I consider a crappy flood beam.


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## Bob_G (Jul 8, 2007)

Yeah, that's why I use reflector texturing instead of bulb frosting to achieve my desired beams. With the Dremel it's impossible to do it lightly enough (well, without introducing more artifacts) not to go too far toward the floody. This works with the 5761 and a SMO, but not any of the others I've tried. NL has me reconsidering etching cream though, especially after seeing how nicely a light frosting can do with Greg's 1160. I'm not knocking a good spot - I love the TigerLight Gen4 LA - but I like to balance the light available to the beam - 64625 gets a HS and WA1111 and such get maybe a MOP or LS -still a good spot, but useful spill as well. It amazes me how much you can effect the beam with reflector choice.


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## missionaryman (Jul 8, 2007)

So back on the topic, from an 1800mah 10.8v pack through a regulated set up I get 20 minutes with the 1164 & 11 minutes with the 64430, I'm not using a HP version of the Hotdriver and it's surviving but the only problem is the bulb is too long to properly focus without unscrewing the head past the Oring. I can't remove the extenders from the KIU because I wired it for the shorter bulbs and when I do lower the socket it stretches the wires too much and I lose contact.
I'll have to purpose build another light for this bulb at some point.


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## Northern Lights (Jul 8, 2007)

missionaryman said:


> So back on the topic, from an 1800mah 10.8v pack through a regulated set up I get 20 minutes with the 1164 & 11 minutes with the 64430, I'm not using a HP version of the Hotdriver and it's surviving but the only problem is the bulb is too long to properly focus without unscrewing the head past the Oring. I can't remove the extenders from the KIU because I wired it for the shorter bulbs and when I do lower the socket it stretches the wires too much and I lose contact.
> I'll have to purpose build another light for this bulb at some point.


Good to discuss this, I noticed this problem with my half-finished G6.5 lights too. As I stated I want to put this bulb onto an AW C-driver. AW gives these specifications:
"You can also adjust the socket height by either removing the two brass washers ( -2.5mm ) or by adding the included 6 pcs of 0.8mm steel washers ( +0.8 to +2.4mm )."
MM, do you think that lowering 2.5mm will do it? If it is already set, and I think it is, to the height of the 5751, similiar to the 1164 height, then it will only lower 2.5 mm. I was thinking it needs to go down about 6 mm (I may have this confused with the axial filament of the IRC 65 W, I need to get back to my work bench.). A combination of head placement and kiu could get the 6mm difference maybe. One quick way to tell is to index the two bulbs side by side and measure the difference in height of the top of the filaments.
I do not have a driver in hand yet, I was studying the photos and considering a method to re-install the camming slug or modifying the slug to take the KIU socket on top. That would fit into the cammed reflectors I have the KIU would allow the use of either bulb, a standard socket will allow me to change between the g4 and g6.5 bipin to pr socket adapters.
The hot driver is a must to run the 1164. Eventually I will find the insta-flash voltage of the 64430. If I run it on the A123system batteries at 2300 mAh then 18-20 minutes is possible. Coming in at 9.9 volts is good if the bulb can ony tolerate a lower voltage becaue that will allow the cheap soft start fix and voltage reduction by using an NTC. I believe that the AW C driver is only a soft start, that being the case a resistor added to the circuit would cut the voltage, not need the added soft start of the NTC. This driver will give the same effect as changing to the 1164, reduced brightness and longer runtime. 1/3 and 2/3 brightness levels would translate to about 60 minutes and 30 minutes run times with only the effort of a switch. AW said it is a memory switch so it turns on to the last set position, exactly what I would want, not having to function through all functions each time you used the light.


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## AW (Jul 8, 2007)

NL,

Don't forget you have an extra 4-5mm focusing range by turning the Mag head.

AW


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## Northern Lights (Jul 8, 2007)

AW said:


> NL,
> 
> Don't forget you have an extra 4-5mm focusing range by turning the Mag head.
> 
> AW


Obviously there will be enough adjustment. I am just anxious to get started and want to find the right settings. Another obstacle I am not certain of yet, is the driver is rated upto 45 watt bipin lamps. Is that the OEM desigantion for the lamp or the re-rated power? You, see the 64430 is a 35W lamp but on 9.6 volts, 7.45 Amps it is rated at 69.9 Watts. I could be in trouble here and my design is faulty and I may need to keep my drivers working with the 5761 and 1164.
I was fortunate to aquire more AW Cs and parts through trading. I hope you, AW, have a good supply of drivers because I have hope of building a few more lights with this new inovation with variations of reflectors, bulbs, batteries and charging jacks and I only ordered two for the moment for my immediate needs, my work lights. I did not want to take someone's opprotunity to mod as you stated the first production was limitted! 
Bringing a design from imagination to finished product is so satisfying. Thanks to Missionary man and his pursuit of the perfect bulb and AW for his contributions to hardware and the CPF forum for its atmosphere and member participation I have hours of satisfaction awaiting me working with the potential of modifying flashlights. How crazy is that.


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## AW (Jul 8, 2007)

The 45W rating is based on OEM parts with a WIDE safety margin. I have a local tester ran a 5 min test on a 100W bulb without any issue. However, I can't suggest it 'll be able to run 100W without any long term reliability tests.


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## Bob_G (Jul 8, 2007)

> I can't remove the extenders from the KIU because I wired it for the shorter bulbs and when I do lower the socket it stretches the wires too much and I lose contact.


Can you split the difference - use maybe three nuts in place of the extenders?


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## Northern Lights (Jul 9, 2007)

Thank you, I am so excited I know I will be able to make it, 64430, work with the driver now.
After studying the photos and checking my disassembled Mag charger. I believe I can incorporate the new driver into a mag charger! (I have a 5761 in one) I believe I can remove the ceramic socket and connect the slug to the terminals. The switch and slug in a mag charger are held in a metal frame that acts as a tower and switch holder. *The MC switch is the same diameter as the C switch* and is an independent part very similiar to the portion of the AW driver below the socket. I will replace the plastic socket in the slug with a ceramic one that uses the mill-max 5560 connector, g4 sized. The bored Mag Charger can be fitted with the NiMh pack and the socket change to a G6.5 pattern and then it will run the 63440. What will be the big difference is the MC on the 5761 runs almost and hour, the 64430 is over twice as bright but will run less than half of the time of the 5761. Which is more important, run time or brilliance?
I see I will need another driver very soon if this works. I will then have three different hotwires on this driver! Please wish me well as my wife has seen all the parts, solder, meters and batteries lying about and I must convince her it is a necessary part of life!


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## Action (Jul 9, 2007)

Has anyone tried this using more juice? How about a direct drive in a 3C light using AW's 'C' LiIon batteries? Is this a definite fry for this bulb?


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## LuxLuthor (Jul 9, 2007)

Action said:


> Has anyone tried this using more juice? How about a direct drive in a 3C light using AW's 'C' LiIon batteries? Is this a definite fry for this bulb?



Without regulation of the voltage, 3xLi = 11.1V & hot (4.2V charged) = 12.6V. You can see the life scenario when you try to go that high. Once you go below 4-6 hours on many of these bulb calculations, the AWR Hotrater Spreadsheet gets increasingly inaccurate at higher overdrives, you have to plan on flashing the bulb, even with AW's soft start drop in mod.


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## Northern Lights (Jul 9, 2007)

LuxLuthor said:


> Without regulation of the voltage, 3xLi = 11.1V & hot (4.2V charged) = 12.6V. You can see the life scenario when you try to go that high. Once you go below 4-6 hours on many of these bulb calculations, the AWR Hotrater Spreadsheet gets increasingly inaccurate at higher overdrives, you have to plan on flashing the bulb, even with AW's soft start drop in mod.


On the AW C I have experimented with the 5761 and found significant differences between sets of cells. Some instaflashed bulbs, other would hold and start only after a soft start, so do not rely on the results of only one set of batteries. The manufacturing toleances allow for observable differences that are magnified when overdriving. LL is very corrrect here, I know he has many experiences he can tell us that taught him the ropes. I would be very cautious, this can be an expensive experiment. Everything has a cost, the rewards vs. the cost is an individual consideration. It is like lighting fireworks, cost some cash, goes out with a bright flash but boy was it fun and I would do it again and again.


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## LuxLuthor (Jul 10, 2007)

*Warning*. With that order I placed with "TopBulb.com" what they sent me for the specified $12.99 Osram bulb was yet another Cheap-*** Chinese piece of crap. This only says "Bulbrite" on the outside, with no part number or manufacturer. The sum total of the specification is "Q35 GY6/6" so I called them 1-866-867-2852 and the seemingly astounded woman asked "Oh so you wanted the Osram brand? These should be just as good, don't you want to try them?" I told her I wouldn't pay $2 for this typical Chinese fake crap, and they should be ashamed of trying to scam their customers when the part number clearly specifies it as Osram.

Suffice it to say they are picking these up with a UPS call tag at their expense, and they have to put in a special 2-3 week delayed order to Osram. I doubt I will order from these yo-yo's again, but if anyone else wants to try these bulbs, make sure you call their 866 number and make it perfectly clear, since an online order seems to result in this.


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## Northern Lights (Jul 10, 2007)

LuxLuthor said:


> *Warning*. With that order I placed with "TopBulb.com" what they sent me for the specified $12.99 Osram bulb was yet another Cheap-*** Chinese piece of crap. This only says "Bulbrite" on the outside, with no part number or manufacturer. The sum total of the specification is "Q35 GY6/6" so I called them 1-866-867-2852 and the seemingly astounded woman asked "Oh so you wanted the Osram brand? These should be just as good, don't you want to try them?" I told her I wouldn't pay $2 for this typical Chinese fake crap, and they should be ashamed of trying to scam their customers when the part number clearly specifies it as Osram.
> 
> Suffice it to say they are picking these up with a UPS call tag at their expense, and they have to put in a special 2-3 week delayed order to Osram. I doubt I will order from these yo-yo's again, but if anyone else wants to try these bulbs, make sure you call their 866 number and make it perfectly clear, since an online order seems to result in this.


WHOA! HOLD ON THERE! That is good to know but that is the bulb that we built our lights on. I just checked the boxes, never looked at it before. I guess we got snookered but the bulb works, that is the bulb in Missionaryman/s hot wire.


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## LuxLuthor (Jul 10, 2007)

Northern Lights said:


> WHOA! HOLD ON THERE! That is good to know but that is the bulb that we built our lights on. I just checked the boxes, never looked at it before. I guess we got snookered but the bulb works, that is the bulb in Missionaryman/s hot wire.



This yellow & blue box jumped right out at me, having bought so many various Osrams. That is a shame, especially at this high "Osram" brand listed price that you are using this one, and should lower your expectations. How much? No way to know how crappy the Chinese components and manufacturing. I would not recommend this bulb without making sure to get Osram brand. Note my high resolution images showing "CHINA" stamped on the bulb.


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## Northern Lights (Jul 10, 2007)

Yep, that is the bulb. We never noticed. We have not been able to find anyother with those specifications either. So although it is expensive, unless topbulb comes up with a genuine osram we are kinda stuck with it. It obviously works in the application with soft start and regulation. Interestingly enough so far it is the only bulb I have heard of to cross 2000 torch lumens at that low of a voltage. I wish you luck LL in tracking down the genuine osram. You have a talent for finding things like that; you did very well on the charger issues. I like the idea of this hot wire, certainly I would prefer osram bulbs. Please let us know what you hunt down.


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## LuxLuthor (Jul 11, 2007)

Northern Lights said:


> Yep, that is the bulb. We never noticed. We have not been able to find anyother with those specifications either. So although it is expensive, unless topbulb comes up with a genuine osram we are kinda stuck with it. It obviously works in the application with soft start and regulation. Interestingly enough so far it is the only bulb I have heard of to cross 2000 torch lumens at that low of a voltage. I wish you luck LL in tracking down the genuine osram. You have a talent for finding things like that; you did very well on the charger issues. I like the idea of this hot wire, certainly I would prefer osram bulbs. Please let us know what you hunt down.



The lady told me that she had a valid Osram part number, and did not anticipate a problem...but who knows. I'm still not paying that price for a China knockoff. I'll see what she comes up with.


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## missionaryman (Jul 12, 2007)

Bob_G said:


> Can you split the difference - use maybe three nuts in place of the extenders?


Yeah I tried a few different things including: 1 nut, 2 nuts and the extenders filed down about 1/2 their length
No good on any front.


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## missionaryman (Jul 12, 2007)

Yeah I did notice the cheap Chinese knock off and was kind of disappointed when I got it but it does perform as stated and it looks like the spread sheet is fairly accurate on colour too because this is slightly whiter than the 1164.

I would like to try the genuine Osram bulb side by side - mainly for my curiosity's sake. This cheapo bulb has a smaller capsule than the Osram.


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## LuxLuthor (Jul 13, 2007)

That's assuming this lady with the Osram part number she rattled off to me can actually still get them. Certainly, a comprehensive search of known bulb sites and many google links is not turning up another source...so although I returned mine, she may be mistaken. If I can get them through her, I'll reorder a bunch more to share.


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## missionaryman (Jul 13, 2007)

I wonder how hard it would be to find the Chinese manufacturer and organise a special run with the same specs but an axial filament, they probably need 100 000 bulbs to be ordered before they'd look at it.


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## Northern Lights (Jul 13, 2007)

Dae from qualitychinagoods.com and szwholesale.com advertised OEM work, they locate and obtain quotes for request like that. You can contact Dae through his website and tell him you are from CPF and see what the procedure would be to bring this about. I know he is on vacation and should return from the USA about 7/17. Weihua is in charge of the wholesale right now. He could answe that question. Both are CPF members too.


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## Northern Lights (Jul 17, 2007)

I finished building my Mag Light boring mill I and finished my 2D M64 on 9 GP 2000, 4/5 A, that is @2200 mAh at 10.8 volts battery pack in shrink wrap, soldered together. The AWR hot driver/KIU is set for 9.6 volts. I set the spacers at 6mm and was able to focus the 64430 and 1164s !!! I had a Litho123 smooth reflector and had to open the hole to 12 mm. The 64430 is 10mm at the envelope and I broke two (EXPENSIVE) before I realized that there are two “ears” just below the envelope that stick out some from crimping the pins. Dang tri-focal glasses, I just did not see it!

What a great out put and beam this light has. I got it to adjust and focus both bulbs! I set the spacers at 6mm. I wanted to sell it. There is nearly $300 worth of parts in this thing.

Guess what? The hot driver lasted about 2 minutes and blew. Lots of luck I suppose in getting it repaired. Once I do I am parting ways with this light because I have another design in lithium, voltage reduction and AW’s C driver for the 64430!!

I suppose if you got a hot diver I got a host.


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## LuxLuthor (Jul 18, 2007)

Northern Lights said:


> I finished building my Mag Light boring mill I and finished my 2D M64 on 9 GP 2000, 4/5 A, that is @2200 mAh at 10.8 volts battery pack in shrink wrap, soldered together. The AWR hot driver/KIU is set for 9.6 volts. I set the spacers at 6mm and was able to focus the 64430 and 1164s !!! I had a Litho123 smooth reflector and had to open the hole to 12 mm. The 64430 is 10mm at the envelope and I broke two (EXPENSIVE) before I realized that there are two “ears” just below the envelope that stick out some from crimping the pins. Dang tri-focal glasses, I just did not see it!
> 
> What a great out put and beam this light has. I got it to adjust and focus both bulbs! I set the spacers at 6mm. I wanted to sell it. There is nearly $300 worth of parts in this thing.
> 
> ...



I have hot drivers, but how did you blow it with that small of a voltage?


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## missionaryman (Jul 18, 2007)

you need the Hotdriver HP for anything over 50w, I think the only reason mine survived so long is that the batteries are barely supplying the voltage.


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## missionaryman (Jul 18, 2007)

if you are electronically apt enough (i'm not) you can just replace the FET with a new and more powerful one and you should be up & running again.


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## Northern Lights (Jul 18, 2007)

Well, I have calmed down now. I have been sitting on that light for 9 months. What a disappointment. I contacted the builder, he is very brilliant. I got some test to do and maybe it only needs a Vin change from 10.8 to 9.9 Vb because those bats do not drop under load. At rest the pack is 11.53 V and probably is too high. I can build a new pack or cut the Vb with a resistor. The second change is to adjust the driver voltage. The symptoms are driver shut down. If the driver dies it should go to full on. I have voltage through the driver but not delivered to the bulb, shut down. Should mean it is alive.
To answer LL, I will pm. There is a series of equations to go with this, LL has enough drivers I should give him this data because he could run into trouble too. It is not a two line simple question and answer. 
After some test, it still could be dead, just another problem not a blown FET is all.


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## LuxLuthor (Jul 18, 2007)

Thanks for PM's !


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## Northern Lights (Jul 18, 2007)

LuxLuthor said:


> Thanks for PM's !


Touche! :wave:


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## cnjl3 (Jul 19, 2007)

I dont have the quantity of HD's that LL has but I do have about 3 HDs and so far i am running my 1164 with three D size li-ions with a resistor I put in the tailcap to reduce the voltage as recommended by AWR.
I am requesting that you share your equations so that everyone can benefit from them. If you are not able to can you PM them to me too?

TIA




Northern Lights said:


> There is a series of equations to go with this, LL has enough drivers I should give him this data because he could run into trouble too. It is not a two line simple question and answer.
> After some test, it still could be dead, just another problem not a blown FET is all.


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## Northern Lights (Jul 19, 2007)

cnjl3 said:


> I dont have the quantity of HD's that LL has but I do have about 3 HDs and so far i am running my 1164 with 2 D size li-ions with a resistor I put in the tailcap to reduce the voltage as recommended by AWR.
> I am requesting that you share your equations so that everyone can benefit from them. If you are not able to can you PM them to me too?
> 
> TIA


The equations I am getting from someone else that is working on this. Once I get them, we all have 'em.


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## LuxLuthor (Jul 20, 2007)

After having searched every other place, and seeing the "Osram catalog number" referencing only the O-64432 12V bulb, I called back Cheryl (x8742) and asked her to make sure the supposed Osram 6v 35W bulb she was special ordering was actually 6V.

Today, she called and said they had a mistake in their catalog listing, and after several direct calls to Osram/Sylvania at the two major departments that supply these types of bulbs (800-255-5042 & 800-347-3420) only the 12V 35W was available. 

So the good news for you guys using these bulbs is the ones you got are the only ones that they can get. I'm not sure if there is a European release of an actual Osram 64430 bulb, but it is not listed in their catalog, nor carried by some of the Euro distributors I have used. However, I asked her to refund my purchase.


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## Northern Lights (Jul 25, 2007)

Here are the new equation results, an excerpt from the new hotrater, reworked from acutal data. It does come out at about 2000 t-lumens, a little higer than the predicted 1700. AWR is the original author:


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## jimjones3630 (Jul 25, 2007)

Have ready about this tailcap resistor mod. could you explain what size resistor? it's inline with battery and tailcap ground as Norhtern Lights fuse?

Have been looking at A123 battery. 3 li fully charged would be 10.8v doubt they would sag either without a HD maybe the tailcap resistor would do?

Jim



cnjl3 said:


> I dont have the quantity of HD's that LL has but I do have about 3 HDs and so far i am running my 1164 with 2 D size li-ions with a resistor I put in the tailcap to reduce the voltage as recommended by AWR.
> I am requesting that you share your equations so that everyone can benefit from them. If you are not able to can you PM them to me too?
> 
> TIA


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## Northern Lights (Jul 26, 2007)

jimjones3630 said:


> Have ready about this tailcap resistor mod. could you explain what size resistor? it's inline with battery and tailcap ground as Norhtern Lights fuse?
> 
> Have been looking at A123 battery. 3 li fully charged would be 10.8v doubt they would sag either without a HD maybe the tailcap resistor would do?
> 
> Jim


MY next project is a 4C-cell with 3 A123System batteries from a DeWalt 36V pack, I will have the remainder of the cells to sell off. I will use the AW soft start switch with 4 modes, it is not a driver,Vin=Vout. The 4c-Cell should allow room for a jack like this:
https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/170280
I have not decided yet what charger or mod to a charger will work for these. They are safe and do not need taps.

If the 64430 takes 9.6 volts, I do not know what top end is, and three of the A123Systems 26650, 3.3 Vbat at 2300 mAh is 9.9 volts not 10.8 theses are rated differently, look them up, then use Ohm's law. R=V/I or the resistor=9.9-9.6/7.5 or a very small resistor, this formula gives it at 0.04 ohms. You may get that if you do not mod the tail cap spring. In my case of using a fuse I would put the resistor in the fuse line.


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## jimjones3630 (Jul 26, 2007)

Spoke with Michael Charles at www.bigerc.com

He mentioned one A123 fully charged is 3.6V.
>
> A123 8s1p (8 series, 1 parallel) 26.4V nominal, 28.8v fully charged 
> A123 7s1p (7 series, 1 parallel) 23.1V nominal, 25.2v fully charged 
> Emoli 7s1p 25.9v nominal, 29.4v fully charged Emoli 6s1p 22.2v 
> nominal, 25.2v fully charged
 
Jim



Northern Lights said:


> If the 64430 takes 9.6 volts, I do not know what top end is, and three of the A123Systems 26650, 3.3 Vbat at 2300 mAh is 9.9 volts not 10.8 theses are rated differently, look them up, then use Ohm's law. R=V/I or the resistor=9.9-9.6/7.5 or a very small resistor, this formula gives it at 0.04 ohms. You may get that if you do not mod the tail cap spring. In my case of using a fuse I would put the resistor in the fuse line.


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## Northern Lights (Jul 26, 2007)

jimjones3630 said:


> Spoke with Michael Charles at www.bigerc.com
> 
> He mentioned one A123 fully charged is 3.6V.
> >
> ...


I see where you are coming from, a fully charge 3.6V nominal Li-ion is 4.2V on no load. Under load the A123system drops 3.6v to 3.3V. You and I are thinking alike but not communicatin'. I would figure the drop resistor on the load V, the nominal V. 
You can see their RC packs at a123racing.com. You can get their developer kit from A123System.com. You can cannablize DeWalt packs cheaper too. 
If you get into your project before me let me know how it comes along. I am real interested in actual measurements off the circuits, that helps in finalizing the design.


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## LuxLuthor (Jul 26, 2007)

I got a message back from this Sveltila bulb site yesterday after asking him last week if he could find any genuine Osram 64430 bulbs, and I just bought what he said he got in stock from him. Not sure if he is getting more, but this was just added to his catalog here on 7/25. 

Check the 4000 hr life, and sweet looking axial filament. Shipping from here is always great if you order only 9 or 10 bulbs. This is where I buy my Osram IRC bulbs.


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## Northern Lights (Jul 26, 2007)

Luici has created quite a stir hear. 
Jim, your concern about reducing voltage is as mine on going to the A123System power supply. A cheap soft start and voltage cut is to find the correct NTC know as a surge protector. An initial drop of 1 ohm and residual of 0.6 ohms should do it and I know which thyristor that is, got a few as a matter of fact. They cost <$2.00. BUT I have been using the new hotrater and found at 10Vbulb the life expectancy is 5.7 hours, at 9.9 it is 6.5 hours at 2247 t-lumens, WOW. This may run Direct Drive on the A123System set up. Isn't the rule of thumb that over 4 hours burn life allows DD?


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## LuxLuthor (Jul 26, 2007)

It's pretty interesting to see the difference between the Chinese bulb and the Osram. Lumens/Life/Kelvin/Axial vs. Transverse. With the greater Osram life, you can crank it up more, and will likely have a cleaner beam with that axial.


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## jimjones3630 (Jul 26, 2007)

Sorry for the miscommuniacation. This new mod is exciting.

I am not sure these things will drop under what we consider a load. 

I looked at them and discussed with Michael using them when on a 250ishW mod drawing 12A.

> Both emoli and a123 can handle 12A no problem. That is actually a very 
> low amp draw compared to what they're used to.
 
A123 has an advantage over emoli since you won't have to monitor the 
> pack voltage and stop it at 3v per cell. A123's can be run flat no 
> problems as long as it's not a slow discharge. 12A wouldnt be 
> considered a slow discharge.

Using AW's wonderful C driver with 3 of his li C's and 1164 it was beautifully bright on low & med level but flashed of course on full.

So, on 3 A123 I thinking the 64430 would work unregulated, if you have the disciplin to only use the low and med setting of AW's driver. And as you thought might even run DD.

Northern lights, I'm interesting in buying any extra connectors adaptor for G6.5 you might have. Ordered some blubs today from 

https://www.svetila.com/eProdaja/index.php

and will gladly post bench and mod tesing here.

Lastly, Michael at 

http://www.bigerc.com/

is a member of 

http://www.rcgroups.com/batteries-and-chargers-129/

which I am a member of and he at times offers members discounts on loose cells......... Lower than buying a dewat pak.




Northern Lights said:


> I see where you are coming from, a fully charge 3.6V nominal Li-ion is 4.2V on no load. Under load the A123system drops 3.6v to 3.3V. You and I are thinking alike but not communicatin'. I would figure the drop resistor on the load V, the nominal V.
> You can see their RC packs at a123racing.com. You can get their developer kit from A123System.com. You can cannablize DeWalt packs cheaper too.
> If you get into your project before me let me know how it comes along. I am real interested in actual measurements off the circuits, that helps in finalizing the design.


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## LuxLuthor (Jul 26, 2007)

Keep in mind the A123's need a special charger (or firmware update), and only have 2300 mAh at 3.3V, and aluminum can. Whereas EMoli run at 3.7V with 3000 mAh and more resilient steel can. Both have plenty of C rate capability for any flashlight application.

I'll have plenty of these 64430 bulbs.


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## Northern Lights (Jul 26, 2007)

LuxLuthor said:


> Keep in mind the A123's need a special charger (or firmware update), and only have 2300 mAh at 3.3V, and aluminum can. Whereas EMoli run at 3.7V with 3000 mAh and more resilient steel can. Both have plenty of C rate capability for any flashlight application.
> 
> I'll have plenty of these 64430 bulbs.


I considered the emoli for other applications, they are a safe lithium too. But unless you are running a driver I do not see an easy way to use these at 9.6-9.9 volts. Since I like KISS, simple DD, direct drive, the A123System seems just right for a 4c-cell 64430. You are only looking at 700 mAh difference for a big difference in set up cost. Also the AW driver is Vin=Vout so if you want brightness modes, I do, then you have to figure a voltage drop in there somehow. So it is a game of compatability of components in C size lights. Votage limitations of 9.6-9.9 means the A123System and a socket or an AW driver or the combination of Emolis and a hotdriver. D lights give you yet a different set of parts to find a soluition with.
If 64430 needs a soft start at 9.9 Volts, which I think not because it comes out pretty good on the hotrater at 10 volt! you could DD with an NTC. It looks like you can run this DD on a simple KIU or up coming NL PR2BiPin MKIII G3.6v socket (some fun there, it will happen in a few months protos are good) but I look forward to put that bulb on the AW driver.


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## jimjones3630 (Jul 27, 2007)

It's good to know A123's will sag some which makes them all the more workable solution.

For those who have a Schultz charger, I knew there was a reason I liked it, it has the option of auto charge program using li-mh,li-io,li-po.

So a 4 C size [email protected] will almost double the output of a 1185, a 5 C size [email protected] would make a long run time [email protected] 

Jim


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## missionaryman (Jul 27, 2007)

this bulb hits the 70W mark when over driven at this rate, in my opinion with anything over about 40W you can forget about long run times. Bank on 20 minutes max because of heat failure. Plastic parts, batteries and even too hot to touch after 10 minutes constant running.
I did a run time test on the mule I built for this lamp and after about 10 minutes I could touch it but not hold on to it - and I have tradesman's hands.


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## missionaryman (Jul 27, 2007)

LuxLuthor said:


> I got a message back from this Sveltila bulb site yesterday after asking him last week if he could find any genuine Osram 64430 bulbs, and I just bought what he said he got in stock from him. Not sure if he is getting more, but this was just added to his catalog here on 7/25.
> 
> Check the 4000 hr life, and sweet looking axial filament. Shipping from here is always great if you order only 9 or 10 bulbs. This is where I buy my Osram IRC bulbs.





LL this is a great discovery - what is the lumens rating at 6v? Can he actually supply these with the axial filament? Axial filament will give a far better beam and the 4000hr life doesn't necessarily mean you can drive them harder - depends on the CCT, if it's too close to the melting point of tungsten you won't be able to do it. 
Potentially this could be brighter than the Chinese copy or it could be slightly dimmer at the same voltage.


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## jimjones3630 (Jul 27, 2007)

missionaryman said:


> this bulb hits the 70W mark when over driven at this rate, in my opinion with anything over about 40W you can forget about long run times. Bank on 20 minutes max because of heat failure. Plastic parts, batteries and even too hot to touch after 10 minutes constant running.
> I did a run time test on the mule I built for this lamp and after about 10 minutes I could touch it but not hold on to it - and I have tradesman's hands.


 
I'm glad to hear from members who do math. No joke, I don't except by questimation.

7.5ah draw according to LL HR post. 2300mah bat. that's about 30min run if no heat failure. 

Using AW's drive no plastic, and JimmyM's thermo methods learned from building up a 64458 with unprotected 18650, 2600mah load of 10.-11A in a 4s5p pak. that's some heat.

It will be interesting to see how long it will do continous run.

Jim


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## LuxLuthor (Jul 31, 2007)

Svetila.com has run out of the Osram 64430 bulbs, and confirmed that it is no longer in production. They did just add this Tungsram version that is "somewhat similar" (Tungsram is a Hungarian-EU factory owned by General Electric) With this company, usually if you order 9 or 10 bulbs, the shipping is very reasonable. Once you order 10 or 11 (varies by bulb), it trips into a big jump in shipping, so check for your number.

I don't know about the quality of this bulb, but it is likely better than the China transverse filament version. They obviously co-opted the Osram stats and bulb image, but that is what they had listed with the Osram version to answer MM's questions. 

As far as heat, I have been using the FiberFrax insulating material, but I am not really concerned about continuous run times for seriously overdriven bulbs. I typically use them for 30-60 seconds at a time, occasionally longer.

I should get the Osram versions I ordered later this week. I'll likely order a few of these to compare to the Osram. This is the place to get the Osram IRC bulbs.


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## eyeeatingfish (Jul 31, 2007)

Maybe its just me but the 2nd picture just seems to be giving more flood, not so much brighter.

If we have a mag85 mod, can we just pick up this bulb throw it in and be good to go?


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## Northern Lights (Jul 31, 2007)

eyeeatingfish said:


> Maybe its just me but the 2nd picture just seems to be giving more flood, not so much brighter.
> 
> If we have a mag85 mod, can we just pick up this bulb throw it in and be good to go?


Maybe, we have not tried it beyond 9.6 volts. But the calculations show that it may run just fine at 9.9 volts, Vbattery which is 9.67 V bulb, all theory but should work. You will need to know what voltage you have at your bulb. Most M85 run a higer voltage so probably not. Most use packs at 10.8 with 10.7 volts at the bulb. That would be 10.56 volts at the 64430 and surely would insta flash it as the life is reduced to 2.3 hours.


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## missionaryman (Jul 31, 2007)

Northern Lights said:


> Maybe, we have not tried it beyond 9.6 volts. But the calculations show that it may run just fine at 9.9 volts, Vbattery which is 9.67 V bulb, all theory but should work. You will need to know what voltage you have at your bulb. Most M85 run a higer voltage so probably not. Most use packs at 10.8 with 10.7 volts at the bulb. That would be 10.56 volts at the 64430 and surely would insta flash it as the life is reduced to 2.3 hours.



If you're running your mag85 on regular consumer cells then you'll probably not get 9.6v to the bulb, I'm using high current cells and sitting just under regulation (9.5v). However you need soft start, the initial rush will either flash the bulb immediately or at least shorten it's already shortened life span.
NL: from experience, anything below 7 hours bulb life on the hotrater will generally not work reliably, you need about 8 hrs to allow for manufacturing fluctuations. Even at 8 hours it's touch and go - but if you want to try it in the mane of science I'd love to see the results...

The 64430 is definitely more flood than the 1164 but at the same voltage it's also whiter, the centre of the beam seems to not be as intense as the 1164 (both using the same reflector in that photo) but in my experience if I took the 1164 and using a different reflector got it to flood as much as the 64430 the centre would be quite a bit dimmer.
I do believe there's between 1.5x to 2x the lumens output there (more evident in real life than with photos) but to the eye it will never seem that dramatic.


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## Northern Lights (Jul 31, 2007)

I have a new hotrater. More empiracle data went into developing the equations. Really overdriven bulbs do not show accurate data on the old hotrater. So the results are different.


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## LuxLuthor (Jul 31, 2007)

Northern Lights said:


> I have a new hotrater. More empiracle data went into developing the equations. *Really overdriven bulbs do not show accurate data on the old hotrater*. So the results are different.



So true. :naughty:

MM, it will be interesting to compare this Osram axial version with my 1164 and 1166 bulbs, in terms of the "flood" pattern.


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## missionaryman (Aug 1, 2007)

Yes indeed, axial 64430 should be an awesome bulb with 9.6v and a good reflector. In the test mule I photographed I had a Litho #6.5 MS - pretty floody.

If anyone has built a version of this light they can beamshot and compare with please post it here I'd love to see some more results.


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## cnjl3 (Aug 1, 2007)

Sorry for the late reply - I missed your post initially and i just saw your question today.
AWR's tail cap resistor was initially recommended when using three D size li-ions for his MAG100 '625 HD. 
It is in series with the battery.
When i asked AWR about using three D size li-ions for the 1164 he said i would need his tail cap resistor but that i would only need one 5 watt resistor.
Here is a link that shows what his tail cap solution looks like:
http://homepage.mac.com/rouses/circuits/PhotoAlbum373.html
Its the bottom two pictures on the above link you can also see the value of the resistor.
If you decide to make one dont forget to add enough AA thermal goop to the resistor so that it can wick heat to the tail cap.







jimjones3630 said:


> Have ready about this tailcap resistor mod. could you explain what size resistor? it's inline with battery and tailcap ground as Norhtern Lights fuse?
> 
> Have been looking at A123 battery. 3 li fully charged would be 10.8v doubt they would sag either without a HD maybe the tailcap resistor would do?
> 
> Jim


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## plasmaman (Aug 1, 2007)

Here's a pic of my 2D 64430 setup currently. This is an Osram 64430AX (LL yours are on the way) on 8 x Titanium 2700 which show around 10.1v cold, and drop mighty quick when you take 6 amps out of them! So run time is pretty short I think. Tailspring is wicked, and Kiu socket is standard wiring.
Sorry MM - not up to beamshots at the mo, but impressions are that this is not as intense/bright as my M6 running 1164 on 6 RC123, or 1111 on 2 x 2600 18650's in my Ultrafire WF500. It is a good strong beam though and maybe needs a more resilient power supply. I haven't tried 3 x Li cells yet - though suspect it would be terminal, but maybe with AW's softstart D switch....???? But personally I don't want to go longer than a 2D host.


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## jimjones3630 (Aug 2, 2007)

cnjl3, 

thanks alot, great web page tutorial. I thought it was something like that, didn't have resistor value formula until Northern Lights posted here.

Jim



cnjl3 said:


> Sorry for the late reply - I missed your post initially and i just saw your question today.
> AWR's tail cap resistor was initially recommended when using three D size li-ions for his MAG100 '625 HD.
> It is in series with the battery.
> When i asked AWR about using three D size li-ions for the 1164 he said i would need his tail cap resistor but that i would only need one 5 watt resistor.
> ...


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## missionaryman (Aug 2, 2007)

Great work Plasmaman - but you are probably only getting about 8 volts to the bulb in that set up, I'm using the same carrier and de-resitified everywhere with Titanium Powermax 1800 (rated for 16AMPS) and only getting 8.7v to the bulb. You can fit a 4/5 Sub C in the tailcap if you remove the spring and de-anodize the bottom of the tailcap inside for contact (you just need to wrap it for extra width) and it will be the perfect length to make contace. This should get you another few hundred lumens.






you can measure v-Bulb by putting the multimeter pins to the bulb pins and switching the light on (good idea to cover the bulb with a welding mask or something)

Where did you get those Axial 64430's?


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## jimjones3630 (Aug 3, 2007)

Received message after order when through from svetila.com

"OSRAM Halostar 6V 35W 64430 is OUT OF PRODUCTION. We put in package same product from Tungsram ( same quality, a little cheaper price)"

Were are folks getting the Osram 64430?


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## David1 (Aug 4, 2007)

I am currently running an 1164 with a 100w AWR HD driver set on 9.7v with 3 of AW's C Lions and have had no problems( not using any tailcap resistors, but have yet to do a full burn).

It is a nice light but hard to tell much of a difference even with a meter from an 1185 set at 11.2v.

However, the 1164 should stay in regulation a bit longer due to the higher overhead voltage.


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## jimjones3630 (Aug 4, 2007)

I like a 1164 in DD with FM 9AA holder using a one dummy. Very white and usable no idea how long run. Someone did a 2s2p [email protected] with 1164.

Jim


David1 said:


> I am currently running an 1164 with a 100w AWR HD driver set on 9.7v with 3 of AW's C Lions and have had no problems( not using any tailcap resistors, but have yet to do a full burn).
> 
> It is a nice light but hard to tell much of a difference even with a meter from an 1185 set at 11.2v.
> 
> However, the 1164 should stay in regulation a bit longer due to the higher overhead voltage.


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## jimjones3630 (Aug 4, 2007)

plasmaman said:


> Here's a pic of my 2D 64430 setup currently. This is an Osram 64430AX (LL yours are on the way) on 8 x Titanium 2700 which show around 10.1v cold, and drop mighty quick when you take 6 amps out of them! So run time is pretty short I think. Tailspring is wicked, and Kiu socket is standard wiring.
> 
> Plasmaman, noticed you comments to LL. Do you have a source for Osram 64430A? Is topbulb.com at $12.99 only source?
> 
> Thaks Jim


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## LuxLuthor (Aug 5, 2007)

jimjones3630 said:


> plasmaman said:
> 
> 
> > Here's a pic of my 2D 64430 setup currently. This is an Osram 64430AX (LL yours are on the way) on 8 x Titanium 2700 which show around 10.1v cold, and drop mighty quick when you take 6 amps out of them! So run time is pretty short I think. Tailspring is wicked, and Kiu socket is standard wiring.
> ...


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## plasmaman (Aug 5, 2007)

I may be able to offer genuine Osram 64430AX to those who want them at $10 each plus shipping (dependant on my supplier) - if you would like to express your interest please mail me on john at foxcourt dot co dot uk and let me know how many you would like!
Once I have a handle on the likely numbers I hope to progress some orders.


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## jimjones3630 (Aug 5, 2007)

Email sent.



plasmaman said:


> I may be able to offer genuine Osram 64430AX to those who want them at $10 each plus shipping (dependant on my supplier) - if you would like to express your interest please mail me on john at foxcourt dot co dot uk and let me know how many you would like!
> Once I have a handle on the likely numbers I hope to progress some orders.


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## LuxLuthor (Aug 6, 2007)

A few size, shape, filament comparisons. (click on thumbs)


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## jimjones3630 (Aug 6, 2007)

Lux, nice stock of assortments varying lumen range.

Jim


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## missionaryman (Aug 7, 2007)

PM - email sent
thanks


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## missionaryman (Aug 8, 2007)

anyone got beamshots with the axial VS transverse 64430?


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## Action (Aug 8, 2007)

Great pics Lux. Now, how about some comparative beam shots?:thumbsup:


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## lctorana (Aug 8, 2007)

LuxLuthor said:


> A few size, shape, filament comparisons. (click on thumbs)


That 64432 has LOTS of eye appeal...
:twothumbs


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## LuxLuthor (Aug 11, 2007)

lctorana said:


> That 64432 has LOTS of eye appeal...
> :twothumbs



Yeah, those Osram IRC bulbs are the best designed from many aspects.


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## LuxLuthor (Aug 11, 2007)

missionaryman said:


> anyone got beamshots with the axial VS transverse 64430?



I didn't save any of the Chinese Top Bulb version, so I'm not sure....but in general the axial bulbs give a nicer beam pattern with most Osram bulbs.


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## Robatman (Aug 11, 2007)

A little off topic but what is the best reflector for these type of bulbs. I got a few 64623's (found an australian online dist- saves spending two or three times the price on shipping) and plan to run them direct drive off a 14.4v cordless drill battery (over 16v hot off the charger).

Robert


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## missionaryman (Aug 11, 2007)

Robatman said:


> A little off topic but what is the best reflector for these type of bulbs. I got a few 64623's (found an australian online dist- saves spending two or three times the price on shipping) and plan to run them direct drive off a 14.4v cordless drill battery (over 16v hot off the charger).
> 
> Robert



Hey Robert - who's the distributor in Oz?


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## LuxLuthor (Aug 11, 2007)

Robatman said:


> A little off topic but what is the best reflector for these type of bulbs. I got a few 64623's (found an australian online dist- saves spending two or three times the price on shipping) and plan to run them direct drive off a 14.4v cordless drill battery (over 16v hot off the charger).
> 
> Robert



It depends on the bulb. The 623 is notorious for being a flood, and huge filament, so a larger 2.5" or 3" with MOP will give a better looking beam. To get more of a hotspot, you need a different bulb. See my closeup images above for examples of transverse and axial filaments.


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## Robatman (Aug 12, 2007)

Thanks LL, thought it would need a big area to catch all that light, I'm thinking of getting an old eveready miners style off epay and cannibilising it....

Missionary man, i stumbled across these guys as postage for the bulbs was too prohibitive to give something a try not knowing what I was getting into. I ordered 2 bulbs but ended up with 3 as there was a min $25 order (inc shipping)
http://www.lamps.com.au/
Took about a week to come from somewhere in QLD.

Robert


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## choppers (Aug 12, 2007)

Thanks for all the information guys. I have my sub C 4/5 on order, bulbs and hopefully a hotdriver soon. Already have the host..... cant wait to get this thing fired up!!!!


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## missionaryman (Aug 12, 2007)

choppers said:


> Thanks for all the information guys. I have my sub C 4/5 on order, bulbs and hopefully a hotdriver soon. Already have the host..... cant wait to get this thing fired up!!!!


 
Cool - just remember when modding the switch with the KIU & driver that this bulb needs to sit lower than WA bulbs to focus properly so either file the rise pins down some or eliminate them altogether and adjust the length of your wires to suit.


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## choppers (Aug 12, 2007)

Thank you for the heads up and all the information on this Mod...:twothumbs


missionaryman said:


> Cool - just remember when modding the switch with the KIU & driver that this bulb needs to sit lower than WA bulbs to focus properly so either file the rise pins down some or eliminate them altogether and adjust the length of your wires to suit.


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## LuxLuthor (Aug 13, 2007)

Northern Lights and me are exchanging some Osram 64430 for Top Bulb version so we can both see how they compare.


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## LuxLuthor (Aug 13, 2007)

missionaryman said:


> I'm using the same carrier and de-resitified everywhere with Titanium Powermax 1800 (rated for 16AMPS) and only getting 8.7v to the bulb. You can fit a 4/5 Sub C in the tailcap if you remove the spring and de-anodize the bottom of the tailcap inside for contact (you just need to wrap it for extra width) and it will be the perfect length to make contace. This should get you another few hundred lumens.



CheapBatteryPacks.com is out of the 4/5 SubC, and that yellow color looks like you put a NiCad in there from Amondo? I want to make a welded pack of 8s Titanium 1800's but it looks like the 9th cell would need to be charged separately, whichever I use.


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## LuxLuthor (Aug 13, 2007)

missionaryman said:


> Great work Plasmaman - but you are probably only getting about 8 volts to the bulb in that set up, I'm using the same carrier and de-resitified everywhere with Titanium Powermax 1800 (rated for 16AMPS) and only getting 8.7v to the bulb. You can fit a 4/5 Sub C in the tailcap if you remove the spring and de-anodize the bottom of the tailcap inside for contact (you just need to wrap it for extra width) and it will be the perfect length to make contace. This should get you another few hundred lumens.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I made a post in battery section about making a single pack and being able to charge it as a 9s 1800 mAh even though the 4/5 SubC is 2000 here...be easy to shrink wrap the whole pack.


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## missionaryman (Aug 13, 2007)

Funnily enough the one in the photo is a green one from ebay - 1900mah (from the US), the old one was a nicad which was yellow and a Sanyo 1350mah. That one had to be charged separately so I bought this one.
http://cgi.ebay.com.au/4-5-Sub-C-Ni...ryZ40975QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem


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## LuxLuthor (Aug 13, 2007)

missionaryman said:


> Funnily enough the one in the photo is a green one from ebay - 1900mah (from the US), the old one was a nicad which was yellow and a Sanyo 1350mah. That one had to be charged separately so I bought this one.
> http://cgi.ebay.com.au/4-5-Sub-C-Ni...ryZ40975QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem




Oh wow....even closer....do you know how the current output is on that? (vs. the Titaniums). That seems pretty close if I just make one pack of 9s x 1800....if it has the "juice" to hold up to the Titaniums.


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## missionaryman (Aug 13, 2007)

in general any sub c will out do any AA - even the high current ones so I don't think you'd have an issue.


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## LuxLuthor (Aug 13, 2007)

Thanks MM. I ordered 6 of those, and plan on making a welded pack of 8s x Titanium 1800's including this 9th cell, and shrink wrapping together.


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## missionaryman (Aug 14, 2007)

Cool - should work well, I had no problems other than the 8AA to 2D carrier being unequal to the task.


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## plasmaman (Aug 14, 2007)

missionaryman said:


> Funnily enough the one in the photo is a green one from ebay - 1900mah (from the US)


 
I ordered the ebay greeny 1900 ones too! - MM what did you use for a spring contact under the single cell - or does it fit so snug that the switch spring does the business?


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## LuxLuthor (Aug 15, 2007)

I plan on just welding all into a single pack, and will add a fold over tab on the bottom for tailcap contact.


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## missionaryman (Aug 15, 2007)

LuxLuthor said:


> I plan on just welding all into a single pack, and will add a fold over tab on the bottom for tailcap contact.



Plasmaman - this was what I did too, I soldered a tabe to the bottom and folded it over for contact against the side where I de-anodized it with a rotary tool.


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## plasmaman (Aug 15, 2007)

Thanks MM - just got my green ones today, but they turned up as flat tops....so I'll have to solder them top and bottom (don't tell Lux)


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## LuxLuthor (Aug 15, 2007)

Never been any problem with soldering NiMH. I do it all the time. 

It's the Li-Ion soldering you did that gave me the eebie jeebies of worry for you!


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## Northern Lights (Aug 16, 2007)

I think I found a way around the hot driver for a 10.8V pack. At 9.6Vbat you get about 7.45 Amps at the 64430 bulb. So the drop requires 0.16 ohms. Running two NTCs in series will work like this:
1st choice is either of these two Amertherm NTC surge protection thyristors in series. Putting simple ohms law into use:
IF: 
SL15 0R710, 10 AMP NTC 
runs at 0.055 ohms 100% rating, 
runs at 0.10 ohms at 50% rating 
runs. At .7 ohms initial surge protection 
Running at 7.45 amps that calculates to .082 ohms in the circuit when running.
 OR
SL15 1R010, 10 AMP NTC 
runs at 0.060 ohms 100% rating, 
runs at 0.110 ohms at 50% rating 
runs. At 1 ohms initial surge protection 
Running at 7.45 amps that calculate to .085 ohms in the circuit when running.
THEN: 
Two of the SL15 0R710/series calculate to have an initial surge protction of 1.4 ohms and a running value of .164 ohms.
OR
Two of the SL15 01R010/series calculate to have an initial surge protction of 2.0 ohms and a running value of .170 ohms.

I will put this together this week and report back. I overdive so I probably will go with the SL15 0R710 at first. I think the 64430 can take 9.9Vbulb anyway from working with the hotrater.


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## lctorana (Aug 16, 2007)

NL, that's pure genius.


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## Northern Lights (Aug 16, 2007)

lctorana said:


> NL, that's pure genius.


 
I ran this by a very good designer. I am not a designer. I learn from my mistakes and experiments, that is why CPF is so much fun and building lights is fun too. This is a problem with my proposed design.

Look what I just learned:

you'd be better off with a resistor +NTC.. having the NTC cut out of the ckt when running..

In the above design, one of the paired NTCs should be replaced with an appropriate resistor. I will just add a resistor to the NTC circuit to cut the voltage. I now need to look at the math to evaluate a parallel or series resistance circuit with an NTC in it.

That makes soooo much more sense becaue you could end up with up to two minutes reset time and then you risk insta flash because the bulb has had too much time to cooled off before the NTCs cool back to a high enough initial resistance.

This improved concept is probably pure genius, not my first proposal


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## LuxLuthor (Aug 16, 2007)

thinking & tinkering.


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## missionaryman (Aug 16, 2007)

when you guys figure it all out tell me in simpler terms (I'm a woodworker - if I could play an instrument it would be the drums) so I can copy the same thing - or better still don't even bother trying to explain how it works, just post a video on youtube...


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## plasmaman (Aug 16, 2007)

missionaryman said:


> when you guys figure it all out tell me in simpler terms (I'm a woodworker - if I could play an instrument it would be the drums) so I can copy the same thing - or better still don't even bother trying to explain how it works, just post a video on youtube...


 
ditto what MM said..........:sigh:


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## lctorana (Aug 17, 2007)

Northern Lights said:


> I will just add a resistor to the NTC circuit to cut the voltage.


 
NL, I have read your post quite a few times, and let's see if I understand it.

I assume that with 2 series NTCs, once they warm up, they take 2 minutes to go high-resistance again. So the danger is if you switch off, and on again without waiting the two minutes, yes?
A parallel resistance would dampen and compromise the NTC protection. That can't be it.
So I will assume you are thinking of a SL15 0R710 in series with a 0.082 ohm 5W resistor.
That would give you 0.782 ohms initially, falling to 0.164 ohms in service. To use a higher resistance would compromise brightness.
But the risk of  if you switch on inside two minutes with this setup seems identical to the 2-NTC model.
Unless, since half the heat is taken by a resistor, the NTC heals more quickly - is that it?


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## Northern Lights (Aug 17, 2007)

lctorana said:


> NL, I have read your post quite a few times, and let's see if I understand it.
> 
> I assume that with 2 series NTCs, once they warm up, they take 2 minutes to go high-resistance again. So the danger is if you switch off, and on again without waiting the two minutes, yes?
> A parallel resistance would dampen and compromise the NTC protection. That can't be it.
> ...


That is what I am thinking. Series looks to be the way to go. In the steady state the series resistance is to bring the voltage down to the desired VBulb. The NTC should work ok for this application in series. It heats up to steady state in *miliseconds* and cools as a result of a constant value at base temperature. I do not think any additional resitance in the circuit will affect the actual use of the system because we are only dealing in miliseconds to get to temperature. If cooling happens slower than the cooling of the bulb filament you could in theory have an insta flash.
One thing to consider, I am running the NTC at about 1/2 its rated amps so I doubt that it gets to maximum temperature, that is obvious because temperature and steady state resitance are related equations, the spec sheets show what the resistance is runing at 50% of the NTC rating. I bet it does not get to 1/2 the rated temperature, thus it cools much faster than you are figuring and putting the NTC in the tail cap allows it not to compete with the bulb heat sinking at the head. If you pot it to the tailcap I bet it will cool even quicker. On the same thought put the resistor in the head and reserve the tail cap only for the NTC. Most of this discussion is based on supossition and can only be verified with actual empiracle data taken from experiments. So far, it is very promissing. We need some more experiments, builds and posting on this.


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## lctorana (Aug 17, 2007)

But NL,

I don't understand why NTC + R should be better than NTC + NTC, apart from being cheaper.

There seems no benefit to me, but I still might be missing something.


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## Northern Lights (Aug 17, 2007)

lctorana said:


> But NL,
> 
> I don't understand why NTC + R should be better than NTC + NTC, apart from being cheaper.
> 
> There seems no benefit to me, but I still might be missing something.


The NTCs were run in series to achieve a higher steady state circuit resistance. The effect is to at least double the time to reset after shut down.

SL15 0R710, 10 AMP NTC 
runs at 0.055 ohms 100% rating, 
runs at 0.10 ohms at 50% rating 
runs. At .7 ohms initial surge protection 
Running at 7.45 amps that calculates to .082 ohms in the circuit when running.
Two of the SL15 01R010/series calculate to have an initial surge protction of 2.0 ohms and a running value of .170 ohms.

By running one NTC and a .08 ohms resistor (or parallel resistors to achieve the same low value. 0.08) in series I will have an initial start up resistance of 1.08 or almost half of the 2.0 ohms! This will look a whole lot better, the light will not yellow up to white as bad. and the steady state would be the same. Secondly since you are dividing the heat between two NTCs at 1 ohm each it should take twice as long to ratchet down. dividing it between 1.0 an 0.08 is amost all to nothing split so the time to ratchet down is half of the double NTC system. Secondly the NTC gets hot, that is how it works, so 1.0 Ohms of NTC heats up to a steady state resitance value that is lower than if you have two in there at a lower temperature. If you had two hot NTCs in the same tail cap it takes twice as long to cool as one NTC. That is where the real advantage is to using a resitor in place of the second NTC. The reset time is shorter.

The NTC temperature curve is not really linear, but lets assume it is to follow this. I am running about 50% the rated 10 Amps, running about 5 amps. So if the max temperature is 182 C then 50% is 91. And then also lets assume time to cool is 50% 42 seconds or 21 seconds to reset. Cooling two masses of the same temperature takes twice as long, 42 seconds to reset. Someone just eyeballing the spec sheet realized this and said that two thyristors, NTCs would then take about 2 minutes to cool to reset. Well, the time is all relative and just an estimate but the point is it takes 1/2 the time to reset with one as opposed to two NTCs. I already know that one of these NTCs cools at a rate that hot wire bulbs in this power class will not insta flash. Double the cooling time and then maybe you will get an insta flash after a substantial run on the light if you start up soon after shut down.

to summarize:
1] one NTC will reach steady state in 50% the time as two in the circuit although that is measued in miliseconds.-it probably looks better too.
2] NTCs and resistors produce heat, 1.08 ohms initial is about 50% of the heat generated if two NTCs are used totalling 2.0 ohms.
3] On shut down one NTC will cool faster than two together no matter what temperature; this can prevent insta flashing.
4] Putting the resitor in the head isolates the NTC in the tail cap for faster cooling.

It is all about temperatue and what happens with the extra heat of the second NTC.


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## lctorana (Aug 17, 2007)

Ahhh...

Got it now. Thanks for your patience!


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## jimjones3630 (Aug 18, 2007)

The NTC discussion is great. 

Just a note on A123's and possility of using them with Osram 64430. Ran a 5761 mod on 2 A123's charged to 7.1v. 6.4V measured at the pins. 

Three A123's charged to 10.5 with 7.5A draw of the 64430 looks very promising.

edit vbat 6.73v with vbulb 6.32v


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## Northern Lights (Aug 18, 2007)

jimjones3630 said:


> The NTC discussion is great.
> 
> Just a note on A123's and possility of using them with Osram 64430. Ran a 5761 mod on 2 A123's charged to 7.1v. 6.4V measured at the pins.
> 
> Three A123's charged to 10.5 with 7.5A draw of the 64430 looks very promising.


That is our project, JJ. What shall we name it? I want to put mine into the 4C mag, an AW 4mode driver and a charging jacK. (charging in series is a headache of an obstacle). I think I will end up with an FM smooth reflector that has OEM contours.


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## jimjones3630 (Aug 18, 2007)

NL, that's your original idea therefore your credit and right of naming.
Very cool no NTC, HD, softstart electronic needed with 5761. Will have to get lux meter someday to tell if any difference.

I plan on doing the same in 4C, with smo reflectors . mop smooths it out nicely but I like the look in smo. 

Someone recently posted a tutorial on installing a tailcap charging jack. Perhaps, it was you. I'll look it up.



Northern Lights said:


> That is our project, JJ. What shall we name it? I want to put mine into the 4C mag, an AW 4mode driver and a charging jacK. (charging in series is a headache of an obstacle). I think I will end up with an FM smooth reflector that has OEM contours.


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## jimjones3630 (Sep 22, 2007)

New bulbs Halo Star 64430 on right. Instantflashed at 10.02vbat. after settleing 9.8-9.4vbulb in 4C host 3xA123s. Tungsram on left no instantflash and look at the size difference of filaments. Tungsram twice as long.

NTC Amertherm SL12 1R010 NTC tailcap mod done and 64430 shinning brightly no instantflash!:thumbsup:

thanks Northen Ligths


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## plasmaman (Oct 8, 2007)

jimjones3630 said:


> New bulbs Halo Star 64430 on right. Instantflashed at 10.02vbat. after settleing 9.8-9.4vbulb in 4C host 3xA123s. Tungsram on left no instantflash and look at the size difference of filaments. Tungsram twice as long.
> 
> NTC Amertherm SL12 1R010 NTC tailcap mod done and 64430 shinning brightly no instantflash!:thumbsup:
> 
> thanks Northen Ligths


 
I was playing around with the GE 64430 bulb yesterday, and saw 13.0v on the bench supply!! I cranked it up slowly to there over 10 seconds or so, and no flash. At that point it was pulling 8.1A.


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## LuxLuthor (Oct 8, 2007)

I'm ordering the Mastech HY3020D and some of those GE bulbs, and gonna get more information about these and other bulbs.

Given AW's pending D regulated Hotdriver requiring a specified Vbulb permanent setting, I want to find the maximum Voltage & actual amps before it melts, and what would be optimum life vs. lumen settings for various bulbs.


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## jimjones3630 (Oct 12, 2007)

Plasaman 13v!!! wow, that is encouraging. Received GE bulb from Plasaman for testing, thank you very much. Package marked 550 lm, 2000 h, 34711 a product code suppose, bar code numbered 
9 004102 347118. Filament size larger than previous post osram 64430. 

Place bulb into 4C with 3xA123 rested day after charging with 10.04vbat, 9.7vbulb. Thought of first using NTC and would if on fresh charge.

Beautifully light up the night. Without using bench supply to get a voltage above 9.7v and under 13v looking around 3xEmoli rested measured 12.1vbat, tapping the DMM pos lead to battery while grounded light flashed on, couple more taps lit up each time looking good. But flashed when switch latched on.

Thinking a soft start NTC just might have worked. Hind sight is 20/20


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## Northern Lights (Oct 13, 2007)

jimjones3630 said:


> Plasaman 13v!!! wow, that is encouraging. Received GE bulb from Plasaman for testing, thank you very much. Package marked 550 lm, 2000 h, 34711 a product code suppose, bar code numbered
> 9 004102 347118. Filament size larger than previous post osram 64430.
> 
> Place bulb into 4C with 3xA123 rested day after charging with 10.04vbat, 9.7vbulb. Thought of first using NTC and would if on fresh charge.
> ...


That is good to Know! I just got one of the bulbs too.
I also just aquired some emoli, more AW cells, have the A123 on standby.
Got some more NTCs too, I won't flash this one if it is a start up problem.
Most bulbs look absolutely brilliant, stunning as a matter of fact...just before they insta-flash at flash point! 
Now what's missing...spare time... As soon as I can I will pick up the slack on this and let you all know.


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## Northern Lights (Oct 16, 2007)

I did it! Finished a 2D 64430 with a perfect focus!

I took a 2D, tri-bored the body. 
made a 9S gp2000 pack, 10.8V @ 2200mAh.
Fuse in the tail cap.
NTC into the cavities of the switch
Smooth Litho reflector
UCL
Ceramic blanket reflector insulator
Frosted Osram and Chinese copies, axial and radial filament 64430 bulbs
Rewired the switch, no friction contact all direct wire

Best of all is the socket design. I made a pr to bipin G6.35 ceramic socket, extended both terminals below the casing. I took the pedestal and gutted it and took the slug and cut of 18 mm from the top and threw away the top with the threads. ???? Yes, now I turned the slug upside down. I put a knurled setscrew into the hole, had to tap it with new threads. I put a lock hole in the socket that the setscrew will lock the socket and slug. I cut off the top of the pedestal just at the top of the slot. I put the now upside down slug into the pedestal and through a hole in the bottom side fished out two lead wires and soldered one to the front of the switch contact and the rear switch contact I took a lead through a hole to the battery terminal. Both switch leads were soldered separately and joined to the other leads. The NTC was put in a cut in the side rib of the switch.

This put the bulb low enough I could focus it.

On bench test the 7.43 Amp bulbs pulled the pack down to 9.9Vbat from 10.8Vbat nominal. Still with the NTC I insta flashed one Osram 64430, axial filament. One radial filament Chinese 64430 took on air and smoked the envelope blue gray. 

More beam testing to do. I believe from what I see so far the Osram bulbs are more flood than the others. I also have two other 64430 copies to try thanks to the help of AW and Plasmaman. Jim Jones and Missionaryman need to be mentioned, the five of us have been working on this idea behind the scenes. SPECIAL THANKS TO LUXLUTHOR WHO IS THE SECRET AGENT IN THIS PROJECT!

We are not done yet by any means. I foresee small D and C lights with soft start or mode regulation that can out put about 2250 torch-lumens.

Stay tuned!


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## jimjones3630 (Oct 16, 2007)

NL that Gy 6.35 size bi-pin adaptor is a first. Have not seen or heard of any drop in bi-ins in that size. So many of the favorite 90-100w bulbs come in that size.

Got order shipment confirmation from svetila.com been over one week since placed order Tungsram 56580. rumor had it they no longer carried it will see what shows up. 

2250 lumens out the window from small D and C mags with regulation now that is exciting!


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## Northern Lights (Oct 16, 2007)

jimjones3630 said:


> NL that Gy 6.35 size bi-pin adaptor is a first. Have not seen or heard of any drop in bi-ins in that size. So many of the favorite 90-100w bulbs come in that size.
> 
> Got order shipment confirmation from svetila.com been over one week since placed order Tungsram 56580. rumor had it they no longer carried it will see what shows up.
> 
> 2250 lumens out the window from small D and C mags with regulation now that is exciting!


NO one has made a PR to bipin socket for G6.35. Thanks to the inspiration and help from JS I got a very good G4 model I am going to sell off the surplus soon. This model has an inherent defect. G6.35 bulbs are too long just to drop in. You need to lower the socket. I found a neat way as you see. I can make either g4 or g6.35 pr to bi pin with a true drop in connection like FM sockets or with two contacts sticking down so you can gut the pedestal and wire the thing up for reduced resistance. I think this is the only socket that has a manufacturers Amp rating. I use mill-max.com connectors, these take 8 amps.
I just got through doing some white wall and far-away-tree comparisons and this light rocks. I like it. 
Some lucky person will get this,a tri-bore 2D when I sell this one too! I think I will buid a C-size model on a123 too. That could be on an AW driver this time! 
I have IRC lights in the works and I can only use so many lights personally. So I will keep a 5761, a long burn penta-Q5 LED on 3D host, my almost 30 year old magcharger on 5761 and the magcharger that will have the IRC, I am predicting 3.0k, 3.2k t-lumens. I also rave about AW and his drivers. I got to have some of those too because they are fun. Anything else is sold. I got to have a garage sale, I got some spare super batteries and high power bulbs and a PR2bipin sale coming up, so some day I will get to see the desk top again.


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## LuxLuthor (Oct 18, 2007)

More nice work.

Once I get my AW 4-D, I want to see how all these 6V bulbs compare when overdriven to their ideal level. I'm not as concerned about the Osram 64430 not sustaining 12V to 13V as much as I am the lumens, life, color, beam quality with each of these bulbs driven to their optimum performance level, and in the same platform. 

Generally, a larger filament has not equated with a better quality bulb. There are the other practical issues of bulb cost and availability with the GE 34711.

Another example, I prefer the regulated 1166 overdriven to 12.55V (AWR Hotrater says 926 bl) over the 1185 at 10.9V (even though it predicts to a higher 1275 bl) because of the quality of the whiter 1166 beam. I'll have a better opinion on these soon.


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## Northern Lights (Oct 18, 2007)

I am very excited about your project it will answer some pressing questions. 
Thanks for some of the background work you did for me; I will use the measurements to try to design a drop in solution with the KIU. I prefer the KIU over my socket for ease of use. My socket lent itself better to my experiments. Having found the parameters I was looking for I will now apply those to a build with the KIU. 
I agree about absolutes or maximum drive, I want optimum performance. Currently that pack you see above functions just as AWR told me it would over a year ago. It handles the 7.43 amps well but, it is not a flat curve like Jim Jone's A123 driven bulb, it starts high and runs to a very low, so, yes, the optimum falls within bulb parameters but initial voltage is certainly harming my bulbs if not burning them out even with soft start. I have insta flashed two Osrams now and I cannot decide if it is:
a) a fluke
b) too high initial voltage
c) that the Osrams cannot handle the voltage as high as the copies
Your work will help in deciding what driver settings to ask AW for.

(for new folk, AW and AWR are different people, both build drivers, how confusing?)


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## jimjones3630 (Oct 19, 2007)

A123 cells as many have mentioned if not in name but in concept- higher voltage batteries will and are changing the landscape of moded incan. lights. Hopefully, the ability to run hotter mods. in smaller form factor will lead to advances in the industry. Some new insulation, reflector or window lens technology would be helpfull. Expect other advances will follow as popularity grows.


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## missionaryman (Nov 3, 2007)

I got the 64430 out for a play with this afternoon - had to take care of some newspaper that needed burning and then I saw a bull ant's nest...

64430 - 10 Bull Ants - 0 what the sun and the magnifying glass couldn't do to big ants when I was a kid the 64430 does with ease.

I desparately need one of Lux's packs to power it with though because the Modamag holder is really struggling under the load.


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## Northern Lights (Nov 3, 2007)

missionaryman said:


> I got the 64430 out for a play with this afternoon - had to take care of some newspaper that needed burning and then I saw a bull ant's nest...
> 
> 64430 - 10 Bull Ants - 0 what the sun and the magnifying glass couldn't do to big ants when I was a kid the 64430 does with ease.
> 
> I desparately need one of Lux's packs to power it with though because the Modamag holder is really struggling under the load.


Glad to see you back, Luci. We have seen TV specials in the States on those ants, seems they are quite a dangerous pest!
I have a pack that is soldered and shrink wrapped, fits a tri bore. 9s, GP2000 soldered 3 sticks 3 long. Soldering is easy got a video on rcgroups.com. Then I put gasket paper under C battery end caps taken from a common c-energizer. But I am leaning to just using a piece of copper sheet for my end caps now. I am also switching from shrink wrap to Kapton tape. I found a few links for cheap Kapton.
Jim has been successful with emoli and A123. I will email on that supply. 

I have been at war with a colony of harvester, ants for 14 years. I guess I really do not want to wipe them totally out to have a running battle last this long. I see a new weapon and a counter strike in the near future!


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## DMC (Nov 10, 2007)

LL,
Found another source to more 64430AXs:

http://www.interlight.biz/itemno.int?ordercode=53022.005&title=OSRAM SYLVANIA 64430AX Q35T

Here is a photo of what was received:


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## missionaryman (Nov 11, 2007)

There have been many bulb lumen figures and theoretical voltage figures quoted in this and many threads so I thought I'd show how I measure mine before making any claims. This is what I believe is the most accurate method available - measuring voltage at the bulb pins while in the actual light and calculating lumen output from there.

Here are some pics - the battery pack is the one mentioned in my first post and open voltage is 12.31v one week after charging.

First photo - no load regulated voltage at the socket:







Second pic shows the 1164 at the regulated voltage (I requested 9.5v so AWR got very close kudos to him) I had the probes in reverse hence the negative figures - sorry










Third pic shows the 64430 after 10 seconds - voltage sag!






Fourth pic - same after 15 seconds, even more voltage sag






Fifth pic - same after 20 seconds and I had to stop here for fear of burning the polyurethane finish I just put on the new Spotted Gum table top I made






I imagine this set up using what are supposed to be high current cells would sag right down to 8v for the majority of the run time.

I reckon that to properly drive this bulb you need to wait for AW's regulated version of his D cell soft start switch and try a 6D with 9 SUB C's. Or maybe a cut down 4D tri-bore with 9 3800mah 4/3A cells might do it.


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## LuxLuthor (Nov 11, 2007)

I have now tested the Top Bulb and Osram 64430 versions. My first order of the Tungsram version of the 64430 from Svetila was never delivered, and after a month I'm still screwing around with them to replace it.

I also tested Amps and lumens of the GE bulb from Plasmaman, and have it all charted in this thread. I have done tests to flash point on 19 bulbs so far, and I will likely stop at the 20th bulb whenever I get these Tungsrams. When I had 2 bulbs, I ran the 2nd repeat on different nights to check for bulb to bulb, and testing method consistency which was very high.

It is now enough information in conversations with AWR to be able to get an accurate revision of his Hotrater predicter, and to figure out proper regulated voltges for the most popular of our bulbs.


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## missionaryman (Nov 12, 2007)

so from your tests the 64430 barely outputs any more than the 1164 at the same voltage of 9.6v or am I reading it incorrectly?


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## LuxLuthor (Nov 12, 2007)

missionaryman said:


> so from your tests the 64430 barely outputs any more than the 1164 at the same voltage of 9.6v or am I reading it incorrectly?



No. *At 9.6V here is what I have listed for tested outputs in order of brightness:*
*Osram 64430 put out about 183 Lux (extrapolated between 9.5V & 10V readings)*

*Plasmaman's GE347118 6V puts out 159 Lux (extrapolated between 9.5V & 9.8V readings)
*

*Top Bulb version of 64430 puts out 135 Lux (extrapolated between 9.5V & 10V readings)*

*1164 putting out 113 Lux*
However, just looking at a fixed voltage like 9.6 is not that useful. You need to look at the *optimal "sweet spot" for each bulb* which takes into account the bulb life and optimal Lux output at a specific voltage/current which must be supplied by a practical battery solution. You also need to look at my test platform to see how these values of Lux compare to Manufacturer's Bulb Lumens claimed.

For example, the optimal "sweet spot" for the *Osram 64430* may be *10V (7.8A) putting out 205 Lux with about 9 hrs life *which compares to the *1164 sweet spot of 9.6V (4.3A) putting out 133 Lux* *with about 9 hrs life*. 

I don't know what the "sweet spot" 'Lux for Life' would be for the TopBulb or GE bulb. Finally, the *Philips 5761** looks like its sweet spot is at about* *7.3V (5.6A) giving about 157 Lux...and cannot be pushed to 9.6V.*

I will be testing the Svetila Tungsram version of 64430 to see how it lines up...which will be my 20th unique bulb tested.

The thing we have never known until now is real Lux testing in a controlled manner, actual Amps needed, and bulb life you desire. I still have to do actual run times with selected bulbs at 1 or 2 predicted "sweet spot" voltage levels. The run times & lumens we have been using have all be based off unknown Hotrater predicted formulas. 

We all just assumed if we took an Osram 100W 64623 12V bulb, that its actual amps needed at 12V must be 100W/12V=8.33A, and that its run time and lumens were all following the WA overdrive formulas. My tests are bringing some reality to our fantasies. :tinfoil:


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## lctorana (Nov 13, 2007)

Hi Lux,

Fantastic work. Tackling the lux, life and current issues head-on.

Been reading the tables, and there's one thing I don't get, or at least is not intuitive to me - what is your criteria for settling on a "sweet spot"?


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## missionaryman (Nov 13, 2007)

Thanks LL that's brilliant work - so what I need is a Genuine Osram 64430 running at about 10v Regulated.
D you think that 9 x 2500mah A cells (good quality ones like the IB) will hold 10v under load?
The spec sheet says they will but then again the spec sheet for my Powermax's said they'd hold voltage @ 16A and they don't even come close?


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## LuxLuthor (Nov 13, 2007)

lctorana said:


> Hi Lux,
> 
> Fantastic work. Tackling the lux, life and current issues head-on.
> 
> Been reading the tables, and there's one thing I don't get, or at least is not intuitive to me - what is your criteria for settling on a "sweet spot"?



Well that is a very good question.  Those of us who like to overdrive our bulbs want to get the most light, but not if it only lasts a few hours. Others would want to get 20+ hrs of run time (at the cost of less lumen output).

I have sort of settled into a cost/benefit range of about 8-15 hrs of predicted bulb life...partly dependent on bulb expense. The Top Bulb Chinese version of the 64430 was costing $12 + S&H, whereas many WA bulbs are $4-5....so I may consider the "sweet spot" as longer life with the TopBulb version.

I think our predicted life at various voltages for Welch Allyn bulbs are going to be pretty accurate when tested vs. predicted, since the AWR Hotrater Excel file was taken from their site's formulas....but none of us have ever actually tested the life at a certain voltage to see if bulb lasted as long as has been predicted by the Hotrater. That is Step 3 of my testing. We also have not paid attention to standardizing the testing, if any was previously done. 

Unfortunately, there is no way to be sure the verified life from my testing will be exactly the same in a Mag head where the heat buildup will be higher, and more frequent on/off cycles will impact the bulb...not to mention those that use bulbs in a direct drive setup where there is an initial startup voltage spike. 

AW has come out with his soft starting D & C driver to counteract this last issue which is really great. JimmyM is also working on some clever tools in this thread. Hopefully my information will help in specifying the ideal Vbulb when AW comes out with a regulated version of his D Driver.



missionaryman said:


> Thanks LL that's brilliant work - so what I need is a Genuine Osram 64430 running at about 10v Regulated.
> D you think that 9 x 2500mah A cells (good quality ones like the IB) will hold 10v under load?
> The spec sheet says they will but then again the spec sheet for my Powermax's said they'd hold voltage @ 16A and they don't even come close?



I got a bunch of them, and shared some of the stock with Northern Lights, so between us we should have everyone covered. I'm thinking selling them in the $7.50 ballpark + postage. I first need to test their life starting at 10V and see how long they last. If they only last 4-5 hours, than that setting is not going to be practical. I'll start testing that very bulb tomorrow in 1-2 hour segments. I have just about gotten over the loss of bulbs from Step One. :mecry: I needed some grieving time before starting step 3. Thumbnail:





As far as which battery source to use, for the Osram 64430 it looks like you need ones that have been verified to hold their load at 8-10A...then coming up with 10V+ (if using regulated source). SilverFox tested a slew of AA's that can hold up that level of amps, sustained. Certainly the Elite 1700's AA or 1500's 2/3A. If you go Lithium, you are going to need 3s Emoli or A123....and personally I'm just not interested in longer lights if I can avoid them....so unless quality, affordable LiFePO4 start coming out in smaller form factors, I'm staying with NiMH. 

8 x NiMH would be 9.6V nominal, 11.4V hot....which with Maglite resistance is not quite getting enough. It looks like a 9 cell NiMH pack (2/3A) would be my guess in a 2D Tribore.


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## lctorana (Nov 13, 2007)

Thanks Lux.

My own method was to go for a 26% voltage increase over the nominal published operating voltage, because 126% is the brightness-doubling voltage from AWRs spreadsheet.

But it's mostly sealed beams with me, so heat dissipation doesn't worry me.


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## jimjones3630 (Nov 13, 2007)

Have been running the Osram substitue Tungsram 56580 with 3xA123 in 4C with 10.2vbat fresh charge not needing NTC or soft start. 2200mah/7000x60=18 min run. 

Do get the whole 18min with A123 flat discharge when light starts to dim the bat are 2.75i-3.0ish ov



LuxLuthor said:


> As far as which battery source to use, for the Osram 64430 it looks like you need ones that have been verified to hold their load at 8-10A...then coming up with 10V+ (if using regulated source). SilverFox tested a slew of AA's that can hold up that level of amps, sustained. Certainly the Elite 1700's AA or 1500's 2/3A. If you go Lithium, you are going to need 3s Emoli or A123....and personally I'm just not interested in longer lights if I can avoid them....so unless quality, affordable LiFePO4 start coming out in smaller form factors, I'm staying with NiMH.
> 
> 8 x NiMH would be 9.6V nominal, 11.4V hot....which with Maglite resistance is not quite getting enough. It looks like a 9 cell NiMH pack (2/3A) would be my guess in a 2D Tribore.


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## LuxLuthor (Nov 13, 2007)

JJ, yeah I know the cell setups like 3 x A123's will light the various 64430 bulbs...but I want the sweet spot which is likely going to mean higher Vbat source if we need 10V regulated.


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## jimjones3630 (Nov 13, 2007)

If you want to use that bulb and keep > 10vbulb Ni Mhs could do that with requlator, 10.8vbat may sag down to 10.2v. 

I really have lost interest in 64430 and substitutes like GE's version tungsram 56580.

Another G4 pin 30w 6v have been playing with it is stunning. Sometimes the grass is green over there.

New bulb came in today. Hooked up to kiu socket to bench power, Only marking on bulb 6v, 30w.

6v=2.5A
7.13v=3A
8.03v=3.5A
10.7v=4A
12.25v=5A held 14.2v for sometime. at next increase,
14.6v=POOF
jim



LuxLuthor said:


> JJ, yeah I know the cell setups like 3 x A123's will light the various 64430 bulbs...but I want the sweet spot which is likely going to mean higher Vbat source if we need 10V regulated.


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## LuxLuthor (Nov 14, 2007)

JJ, that may indeed be an interesting bulb....but from now on, I'll rely on objective testing which we don't have for that new bulb.


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## jimjones3630 (Nov 14, 2007)

Lux, 

I don't recall asking you to rely on anything. Again how interesting there is a new standard of hotwire approval. Does it have the Lux stamp?



LuxLuthor said:


> JJ, that may indeed be an interesting bulb....but from now on, I'll rely on objective testing which we don't have for that new bulb.


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## missionaryman (Nov 14, 2007)

JJ - do you have any lux or lumen readings at the tested voltages? With those amp readings you likely have a sub 20w bulb that's incorrectly marked as a 30w


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## jimjones3630 (Nov 14, 2007)

No lumen readings except my eye to verify. Not quantitatively accurate but qualititively fairly close. I don't trust my amp readiing for old analog AC CC bench. How usually build is find out instan-flash point and work up to it. I have neather the time nor money to buy light meaters or spheriacals.

I do have one subjective test where I get a handle on how many lunmens. start with fresh charge battey window on and hold hand palm down covering the windowl. Turn it on and start counting 1 1000, 2 1,000. What can tell you from that 1185 isn't as hot as s 458 with 6 emoli.



missionaryman said:


> JJ - do you have any lux or lumen readings at the tested voltages? With those amp readings you likely have a sub 20w bulb that's incorrectly marked as a 30w


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