# I'm done with Cool White!



## RetroTechie (Nov 13, 2018)

Over the years, my preferred range in LED tints has hovered around the warmish side of neutral (around 3000-4000K color temperature). Both flashlights and general purpose lighting. But as far as flashlights go, they've been lagging behind that preference. Mostly because lights didn't come in NW, or came in NW where I had preferred WW.

Recently bought another Convoy S2+ (also NW), together with orange peel reflector and some warm white LEDs. The latter meant to repair another light whose LED got damaged during a re-assembly mishap.

That repair was done, and now I have a brass light (originally from CNQG) with beautiful warm light coming from it. Immediately upon completion, first thought was: "Oh I like this sooo much!". :twothumbs Which made me mod that newly bought S2+ as well. Reflector smooth -> orange peel, LED neutral -> warm white (around 3000-3200K color temperature). It's almost too warm tint (for EDC uses), but still very happy with result.

So... I'm done with Cool White. Serious!  Even for the smaller AAA lights. What I have in CW can stay - until I get a good replacement. If I ever buy a light again with a CW emitter, it'll be solely for the purpose of modding with a NW or WW LED asap after arrival.

Seems I'm not alone, and manufacturers have -slowly- been picking up on this trend. Something else I noticed: in general lighting (AC powered bulbs, fluorescent & their LED based replacements) it's either some 'daylight' tint (think factory ceiling CW), or warm white. Nothing in between - no neutral white LED bulbs to be found anywhere. :duh2::thinking:

Your thoughts?


----------



## trailhunter (Nov 13, 2018)

I like CW for mountain bike riding, neutral white didnt provide the details I needed. Neutral white for the casual flashlight use.


----------



## MAD777 (Nov 13, 2018)

I find that I can see details and depth outdoors much better with warm tint. Cool tints make everything appear blueish-grey an flat.


----------



## eh4 (Nov 13, 2018)

I can't help but think that cool white efficiency comes down to marketing, they grabbed the notion of peak retinal response and ran with it, without looking deeper into visual perception. 
Sure the glare is brighter...


----------



## FRITZHID (Nov 13, 2018)

I've modded every modable light I own to either n219 4000k or 351D 4000k, I can't stand cw light. The 219 lights have mostly been dedomed so they are closer to 3500k now.
CW light gives me a headache, and the color rendering just... sucks. My 2¢


----------



## LetThereBeLight! (Nov 13, 2018)

Maybe I'm weird (actually, I qualify by virtue of being a flashaholic, haha) but here's my take.

I believe the nighttime exists for a reason. I believe things at night are not supposed to look like the way they do when the sun is out.

Am I missing something?


----------



## Thetasigma (Nov 13, 2018)

I no longer own a light with anything colder than 5000K which is borderline blue to my eyes at night. My favorites of late have been 3500K R9080 219Bs, a gorgeous warm light with beautiful colors.


----------



## Mattz68 (Nov 13, 2018)

Never anything above 4000k for me now...even my L10 Nichia 4500k seems too cool.


----------



## Cosmodragoon (Nov 13, 2018)

Good for you! Cool white had kept me away from modern LED flashlights since their introduction back in the day. A few months back, I decided to join the community here and start doing some research. I eventually found a bunch of excellent flashlights with warm or neutral tints that I can run on Eneloops far into the future. Now I'm pleased as punch!

Here are few notable winners for me: 

- The Jaxman M2 at 4000K effectively retired my big ol' incandescent Maglites. I know big lumens are all the rage but this provides enough light for my outdoor activities on a pair of AA cells.

- The TerraLux Lightstar 80 has proven to be my favorite around-the-house and basic project flashlight. It feels great in hand to the point of actively trying to not play with it. The yellow-beige light it shines is at just the right level for most anything I want from it.

- The Massdrop Brass AAA rides easily in my shirt pocket despite the weight. It is the prettiest light I own with its Nichia 219B and the mode spacing is perfect for my needs. My dream light would replicate the maximum output picture of this light for extended periods, maybe on 2xAA or 2xAAA.

Speaking of "dream lights", I'd love to see a Lightstar 80 reworked for a Nichia 219B. I have no experience modding flashlights though and I'm not sure learning is in my immediate future.


----------



## idleprocess (Nov 13, 2018)

Prefer neutral tints, but still cycle a few cool white keepers around nonetheless. Not doing color separations, auto paint matching, or anything that truly mandates high color accuracy, so it's just preference. We're long removed from the days of the Luxeon Lottery and ~65 CRI being _really good_, so modern 6500K isn't as bad as it once was.


----------



## novice (Nov 14, 2018)

idleprocess said:


> Prefer neutral tints, but still cycle a few cool white keepers around nonetheless.



This is pretty much where I am at, also. I have some very "keepable" lights (to me) that are CW, but I won't be buying any more CW lights that I am not planning on having modded. Wish I was skilled at doing this sort of thing myself, but I am happy to have been a patron to some of the skilled CPF'ers that do this sort of thing well.


----------



## RetroTechie (Nov 14, 2018)

LetThereBeLight! said:


> I believe the nighttime exists for a reason. I believe things at night are not supposed to look like the way they do when the sun is out.


Given that for many 1000s of years, night-time activity for humans involved candles, burning rags or lumps of fat on a stick :candle: or similar crap (and incandescents for well over a century), _perhaps_ dark-adjusted eyesight works well with fire-like light. Not saying it does, but wouldn't surprise me.

Not to mention sleeping vs. awake changes in our biochemistry, which (among many things) _may_ affect eyesight as well. I happen to be a night owl, maybe that plays into my preference for warm(er) tints. Who knows...


----------



## Lumen83 (Nov 14, 2018)

LetThereBeLight! said:


> Am I missing something?



Possibly. The importance of color vision for picking up details particularly when they are moving or you are moving. If the tint is cool enough to wash out the color, you are not picking up on details as efficiently. Bluer tints will make you feel more awake though. More alert, but less capable of picking up on details and reacting to the environment. How much of this is practically measurable vs. theory? I don't know. But, from my experience with night hiking and running, the difference is very signifficant.


----------



## staticx57 (Nov 14, 2018)

So one of these is cool white...


----------



## mcbrat (Nov 14, 2018)

staticx57 said:


> So one of these is cool white...


I'd say left side is cw as it appears more washed out to me.


----------



## ChrisGarrett (Nov 14, 2018)

If I need to see something in the dark, I couldn't care less what the tint is, or the beam pattern/profile. The differences are insignificant to my need at hand.

When National Geographic asks me to travel on down to the Amazon region and catalog Poison Arrow Frogs, or I take up nighttime portrait painting, then maybe those above things will matter.

Chris


----------



## LetThereBeLight! (Nov 14, 2018)

Retro and Lumen, thank you, you have given me something to think about and maybe research.


----------



## AZPops (Nov 14, 2018)

I work nights (outdoors for most of the night, no office), so for my use, I found cool white works best! I have a emitter swapped Rotary with a 219 Nachia but, since I'm edc'ing my Rotary during the daylight hours. I just carry the 250, as it's already in it's holster. Although warm tints are nice, IMO, it doesn't have the lux (?) I need, or want while working.

I guess what I'm saying is, there is a use, or purpose for different tints.

Pops


----------



## Slumber (Nov 14, 2018)

I use and enjoy both. I find cool white contrasts better against ambient lighting. Indoors or in really dark environments I prefer a warmer tint. 

What's the color temperature of moon light? That's been a source of night time lighting for longer than fire and candles. I know dark adapted vision doesn't see color very well.


----------



## idleprocess (Nov 15, 2018)

trailhunter said:


> I like CW for mountain bike riding, neutral white didnt provide the details I needed. Neutral white for the casual flashlight use.





MAD777 said:


> I find that I can see details and depth outdoors much better with warm tint. Cool tints make everything appear blueish-grey an flat.



Some contrasting experiences here. Our _sense_ of sight uses surprisingly mediocre eyes to gather raw data that's transformed by the finest known image processor in nature - the human brain - to form the images we perceive. Perception is so much more than the realtime signals from the optic nerves - a combination of working memory of what's been scanned the last few seconds and immense volumes of fill-in-the-blank borne from experience fill in *a lot* of the picture. This suggests to me that within certain bounds of color accuracy, an individual can condition themselves to a set of cues that may not work for another individual under the same conditions.

Having suffered _Angry Nichia Blue_ and _Luxeon Lottery_ phenomena of >10 years ago, I feel I can speak with some confidence than today's cool white tints are better than they were back then.



eh4 said:


> I can't help but think that cool white efficiency comes down to marketing, they grabbed the notion of peak retinal response and ran with it, without looking deeper into visual perception.
> Sure the glare is brighter...


Within the constraints of how the lumen is defined and with some attention to color accuracy, cooler tints push more lumens per watt than warmer tints simply as a reality of how white LEDs work - converting the blue light from the LED die to lower frequencies invokes unavoidable losses.

On the perception front, a given number of lumens, cd, or lux of cool white is broadly perceived to be brighter than the same value of warm white.



LetThereBeLight! said:


> I believe things at night are not supposed to look like the way they do when the sun is out.


Within the realm of flashlights, this is generally true. Noon sunlight at the equator during the solstice on a cloudless day is something like 6000K. Because of _context_ - sunlight so bright as to force the pupils to snap nearly shut - this is not perceived the same as a 6000K flashlight in the dark where any reasonable number of lumens, cd, or lux of handheld light source won't do the same for your pupils as the sun - there's still very likely darkness at the periphery of your vision even after many minutes of constant exposure.



RetroTechie said:


> Given that for many 1000s of years, night-time activity for humans involved candles, burning rags or lumps of fat on a stick :candle: or similar crap (and incandescents for well over a century), _perhaps_ dark-adjusted eyesight works well with fire-like light. Not saying it does, but wouldn't surprise me.


Our eyes are clearly well-adapted to _daylight_ given our broad preference for diurnality. Humans have clearly used fire since pre-history, but its inherent color inaccuracy suggests that we're not very well-adapted to it. Artists have noted the changing light qualities of _sunset_ for a good millennia or more - that magical ~30 minutes a day likely a sensory accident - that happens to coincide with the artificial sources of light at our disposal from pre-history through the early 20th century. It was the invention of the carbon arc lamp in the early 20th century then the fluorescent lamp closer to mid-century that first introduced the masses to high CCT light sources.

Due to reasons of history I mentioned previously, since the incandescent light was the dominant residential light source until somewhat recently, and it contrasts with the cooler CCTs common in workplaces warm tints hold broad popularity for their warmth, soothing nature, and association with pleasurable leisure time. There's also the documented phenomenon of blue light's suppression of somnolence (sleepiness) that could also explain the general - but not universal - preference for warm tints in residential settings despite the availability of cooler tints; i.e. even my dislike for nearly-universal 2700K won't abide by 5000K lighting in _non work areas_ my residence.


----------



## fyrstormer (Nov 15, 2018)

I don't think there's anything to be gained by rationalizing personal preferences using sciencey-sounding explanations. People prefer light that allows them to see clearly, suits their mood and the task at-hand, and doesn't give them a headache. There is no way to quantify personal preference.

- - -

Almost all of my home lighting has been LED for the past 8 years. A couple years ago I replaced all of my 2700K Philips LED bulbs with newer Sylvania LED bulbs in two different tints: 2700K and 3500K. I put the 3500K bulbs in places where I want to remain alert, such as my study and our living room, and I put the 2700K bulbs in places where I want to relax, such as the bedrooms. In the bathrooms I use a mixture of 3500K LED (for power savings) and halogen bulbs (for full-spectrum lighting). That way my girlfriend can put on her makeup (on the rare occasion she does so) with a good idea of what it will look like when we go out for the evening (assuming we make it that far).

I use a program on my computers called F.Lux to adjust the apparent color temperature of the screens from 6500K during the day to 4300K at night. I tried ~4500K lightbulbs at one point but I found them to be too stark for home lighting at night, though strangely the same tint works great for the large fluorescent bulbs in my kitchen. However, I prefer _at least_ 4500K, all the way up to 6500K, for spotlighting objects with my flashlights at night; for whatever reason, I can discern colors more clearly _*at a distance, at night,*_ with neutral-to-cool tinted light than I can with warm-tinted light. (calling 6500K "cool tint" is a bit of a misnomer, since it's the color of the sun itself, but it's definitely "cool tint" compared to old-fashioned incandescent heatbulbs.)

However, there is one caveat I've noticed: I bought two Makai flashlights recently, one with a cool-white Cree XM-L and the other with a neutral-warm-white Cree XP-L, and in some cases I can actually see _better_ with the warmer-tinted XP-L. I think this is because the Makai is a thrower, so it's most useful for illuminating objects at a much longer distance than I normally do, and over such a long distance the brighter atmospheric backscatter from the cooler-tinted XM-L becomes a problem. (this is not a sciencey-sounding explanation like I mentioned above; I actually observed the additional backscatter in side-by-side tests.) Basically it's the same reason why automotive foglights are _supposed _to be yellow. However, it's only a minor nitpick, because within the brightest part of the hotspot I can still see more detail using the cooler-tinted XM-L. The corona and spill are more glaring than they are with the warmer-tinted XP-L, but let's be honest, with any thrower you're going to be paying attention to the objects in the brightest part of the hotspot anyway, because the corona doesn't reach very far, and the spill doesn't reach at all.

In general, it's been my observation that deviating from one's preferred tint is less problematic when the light is brighter overall. I think this is why the 4500K fluorescent bulbs in my kitchen don't bother me while the dimmer lighting in the rest of my house looked stark and depressing at the same tint. I think this is because brighter light ensures your retinas get an adequate amount of light to discern image detail even in the darkest parts of the image, and your retinas can compensate for a little too much light in some places better than they can compensate for too little light in other places. It's the lack of perceived detail caused by _inadequate_ lighting that causes the most frustration -- people just blame the tint instead, because the tint is easier to be consciously aware of. Your eyes and brain don't auto-correct for the tint as effectively as they auto-correct for overall brightness, and when you're standing in the dark, _it's cognitively difficult to blame inadequate lighting for your inability to see clearly when the alternative is to have no light at all._


----------



## LeanBurn (Nov 15, 2018)

Other than my blue tint Fenix E01(an icon in itself), all my lights are at least neutral white or warm white. I don't even consider buying a cool white light an option.


----------



## Rockjunkie15 (Nov 15, 2018)

Mountain biking is what led me to NW in the first place. My eyes used to get so exhausted with 6500k, once I switched to 5000k that problem was gone and I’ve never gone back except for my stock s2r baton which lives in the bottom of a drawer.


----------



## ma tumba (Nov 15, 2018)

Until very recently, I'd been in the same boat. But when I had the chance to behold nichia e21a and optisolis at 6500k everything changed. They are perfect daylight tints and I am in the process of building a few lights based on these fantastic cw leds


----------



## 18650 (Nov 15, 2018)

MAD777 said:


> I find that I can see details and depth outdoors much better with warm tint. Cool tints make everything appear blueish-grey an flat.



The road and utility construction crews I see operating at night use cool white flood lighting on site. It's too difficult to see details with warm white because everything turns into a uniform shade of mud.


----------



## Chauncey Gardiner (Nov 15, 2018)

To each his own. Me own each.  

~ Chance


----------



## Philip A. (Nov 17, 2018)

In my experience, Cool Daylight bulbs give a blinding light, while not showing any details - and give me a headache as a bonus.

with “cool” LED bulbs indoors, I have to step out of the room after a couple of minutes...

4000K or less energy-saving or LED bulbs work great for me: of course they skew color perception, but they give a much better general vision, a balance between light intensity and perception.

Being that we have more receptor cones for green and red (which combine to give yellow and “warm” hues), that could be an explanation. 

The headache, I don’t know. That could be down to the frequency: in the days of CRT monitors I had to adjust the refresh rate above 100Hz to be able to stare at the screen.

So... I’ve been done with “cool white” from day one


----------



## staticx57 (Nov 17, 2018)

Philip A. said:


> In my experience, Cool Daylight bulbs give a blinding light, while not showing any details - and give me a headache as a bonus.
> 
> with “cool” LED bulbs indoors, I have to step out of the room after a couple of minutes...
> 
> ...



You should look up CRI so you understand why you like what you like. It is a measure of a light's ability to accurately portray color. CRi is calculated against a given color temperature so it is why both the sun and an incandescent bulb both score 100 but colors look widely different. Anyways, not ALL cool white LEDs are low CRI but you will likely not find any high CRI in the consumer space.


----------



## ven (Nov 17, 2018)

I have many hi cri, or 4000 to 5000k neutrals. But i still need the odd few cool whites, 5500k to 6500k just to break the temps up. I do prefer 4k to 5k generally , but i also like to use 5700k to 6500k now and then. It can feel fresh/clean and white at times. Just for that change or different perspective on things. if i had to pick, yes 4k to 5k for sure,, but a little 6k does not hurt. Although i prefer the neutral flavours, the cool/fresh temps still fit in my collection of tools. I have always liked choices and option, i love many nichia flavours. But for example to have all the same or all 219b and 219c would ear thin fast. I need options and choices for applications, where one surpasses the other, others suit better in some applications.

So although i prefer my 4 to 5k flavours, i am not done with CW options. Mules and closer range flood lighting i prefer neutral(and hi cri ), moderate to long range i find CW perfectly fine as long as no blue/greens or what evers! Choices and variety for me are all key in my flashlight enjoyment, no point in me having 90 flashlight in 219b 9080 for example. I need some 219c, xpl HI, xhp 35 HI etc etc etc in there for options. Maybe like a socket or ratchet set, i dont want 90 x 13mm spanners.....................even though i might not use the 15 or 16mm much.................i still want them


----------



## fyrstormer (Nov 17, 2018)

Philip A. said:


> In my experience, Cool Daylight bulbs give a blinding light, while not showing any details - and give me a headache as a bonus.
> 
> with “cool” LED bulbs indoors, I have to step out of the room after a couple of minutes...
> 
> ...


The high density of red and green cones just increases the detail of your vision, not your sensitivity to cool or warm light. Blue cones do that. Overall, it only takes the first few days of your life for your brain to compensate for the relative amount of stimulus being generated by each set of color-cones. The reason humans have high densities of red and green cones is not because of the color of sunlight itself, but because we are descended from fruit-eating primates and it used to be a matter of life-or-death for our ancestors to distinguish red ripe fruit (full of life-sustaining sugar) from green unripe fruit (little sugar and lots of poisonous chemicals to prevent being eaten before ripening). We have far fewer blue cones because, in the wild, they are only particularly useful for determining the color balance of your entire visual field, to aid in accurately assessing the redness or greenness of the fruit you're looking at. Primates are the only mammals with highly-developed color vision; early rodent-like mammals lost color vision when they evolved from reptiles, in favor of higher rod-cell density, because being able to see clearly at night was far more important, to avoid being eaten by dinosaurs. (yes, the first mammals evolved while the dinosaurs were still around.) To this day, most mammals still either see greyscale (optimal night vision), redscale (good for seeing fresh meat and females in-heat), or yellowscale (good for distinguishing grass from prey), because they don't operate in a wide range of lighting conditions like primates do and don't determine the safety of food items by their color.

As for why you specifically are so sensitive to cool light...that is mostly because of how your specific brain is wired-up, not because of your eyes. For whatever reason, your brain is highly sensitive to stimulus from your blue cones, while others aren't. Since humans in tribal cultures often separate into diurnal, nocturnal, and crepuscular groups so someone is always awake to do chores and defend the camp while the others sleep, there was probably some natural-selection to favor having a certain number of people who are painfully sensitive to bright blue light.


----------



## idleprocess (Nov 17, 2018)

18650 said:


> The road and utility construction crews I see operating at night use cool white flood lighting on site. It's too difficult to see details with warm white because everything turns into a uniform shade of mud.



Presumably this is because within the bounds of acceptable color accuracy and in a dollars-per-lux sense, metal halide is the best choice. Incandescent is too inefficient, sodium lamps for their astounding efficiency have insufficient color accuracy, and mercury vapor hasn't been an option for decades. LED might start moving into this role - and perhaps has - since it's displacing metal halide in a number of other area-lighting applications such as parking lots, street lights, industrial facility lighting.


----------



## AZPops (Nov 17, 2018)

idleprocess said:


> Presumably this is because within the bounds of acceptable color accuracy and in a dollars-per-lux sense, metal halide is the best choice. Incandescent is too inefficient, sodium lamps for their astounding efficiency have insufficient color accuracy, and mercury vapor hasn't been an option for decades. *LED might start moving into this role* - and perhaps has - since it's displacing metal halide in a number of other area-lighting applications such as *parking lots*, street lights, industrial facility lighting.



Presently there are areas on the property I'm working, as well as the neighboring strip center who changed the overhead lighting to LED's, and, it's become very difficult walking in, or towards thoughs areas as the lights are so dang bright! They must have them set at full power! Place the darn housing in a reflector, point it toward the sky, and I'd bet the space station could pin point the location! 

Pops


----------



## fyrstormer (Nov 18, 2018)

Those lights are installed primarily for security and insurance reasons. They run them at full brightness because bright light deters thieves and vandals. They don't particularly care how law-abiding people feel about it. Maybe if they get hundreds of complaints they'll adjust the brightness -- but if they do, they'll probably use low-frequency PWM that will be even worse, because low-frequency PWM circuits are inexpensive. It's unlikely they would get any complaints at all, though; the vast majority of people are not interesting in preserving their night vision, and would prefer bright light everywhere they go.


----------



## Woods Walker (Nov 18, 2018)

My number one priority is durability and dependablity within reason. After that beam pattern for application. Then efficiency. Finally tint. All of that said if the tint is really bad that light rarely gets used as have other options. I don't mind CW so long as it's not alien abduction angry blue or squid **** green. I do like warmer tints but if a light has a good CW and fills the necessary tool requirements I am good.


----------



## fyrstormer (Nov 18, 2018)

LOL "alien abduction blue"


----------



## Cosmodragoon (Nov 18, 2018)

"... so long as it's not alien abduction angry blue or squid **** green... "

Excellent.


----------



## jumpstat (Nov 18, 2018)

My edc lights consisted of 3 McGizmos. PD-S, Mule-PD and Haiku XP-G. Out of the 3, I am always drawn to the PD-S which has a Seoul SSC P4 led which is quite old compare to the XP-G and Cree in mule. The PD-S is definitely warmer and without artefacts such as rings etc. Therefore, for me warmer is good, NW & CW much less.


----------



## RetroTechie (Nov 19, 2018)

idleprocess said:


> This suggests to me that within certain bounds of color accuracy, an individual can condition themselves to a set of cues that may not work for another individual under the same conditions.


_Conditioning_ very much applies: tints that differ from what's normally around you, tend to be perceived as 'off'. Regardless whether it's cool or warm tints you're used to. But there's more:

When (years ago) I switched bicycle light from cool to neutral white, it felt very much like my brain had to 'work less hard' to pick up details that mattered - where sides of the road are, holes, puddles, the odd soda can or hedgehog, :wave: this at similar beam profile & lumens output.

Did some cool / warm white comparisons the other day in a dark, woody area (again, roughly matched lumens output). Some observations:
-Under CW, green grass stood out much better against a concrete background. WW tended to 'brown out' those greens, making it look more like sand/dirt.
-Otoh, a soda can really 'popped' under WW, whereas under CW its colors tended to wash out, making it much less noticeable.
-Jury's still out on already brownish items like branches, fallen leaves etc and black / gray contrasts.
Will do some more field tests soon, including all of cool, neutral & warm tints. And _maybe_ mod my S2+ back to neutral :hairpull: if that gives better results.

So I'd say CW tends to emphasize some colors, whereas WW tends to emphasize other colors. With NW providing a nice middle ground. Obviously what works best for _you_, given the task(s) at hand, is what matters.


----------



## Sos24 (Nov 19, 2018)

I like neutral white the best. If I had to choose between cool or warm, I would probably choose warm, but to me to far either direction from neutral is unpleasant.


----------



## thermal guy (Nov 19, 2018)

ChrisGarrett said:


> If I need to see something in the dark, I couldn't care less what the tint is, or the beam pattern/profile. The differences are insignificant to my need at hand.
> 
> When National Geographic asks me to travel on down to the Amazon region and catalog Poison Arrow Frogs, or I take up nighttime portrait painting, then maybe those above things will matter.
> 
> Chris



You know I’m with you if I step on a lego I don’t give a crap if it’s red or orange I just want to not step on it in the first place however I just got a M61W in and the tint on this thing is so awesome I don’t think I’ll use to much cool colors again.


----------



## staticx57 (Nov 19, 2018)

Luckily Neutral is so common these days you will rarely be in a situation where you will be without a light.


----------



## Mark Anthony (Nov 21, 2018)

Agreed. 

Humans spent hundreds of thousands of years looking at an amber camp fire at night before going to sleep. Blue light stops melatonin production and wakes you up, which can disrupt sleep cycles if exposed too late in the evening.

Warm or Neutral/Natural White also has better color rendition, so is more useful if color identification is important at night (wiring, first responders, fluids, etc.)

Blue is for working or searching IMHO. I avoid blue if possible unless it is called for.

Mark


----------



## Grijon (Nov 22, 2018)

For me and my eyes, 4000k is a wonderful, pleasing tint with a bit of warmth; if I could only have one tint for the rest of my life 4000k would be it.

I enjoy the warmer tints, too, such as my M61Ws and Convoys S2+s with <4000k tints. They look like incandescents to me (my M61WLLs were purchased as incan simulators), which I very much enjoy.

5000k is absolutely "pure" light to my brain - I see no tint in it at all, making it rather "flavorless", if you take my meaning. It's still better for me than any cooler.

>5000k is blue to my eyes, period. I started this hobby with CW Fenix lights and don't know what changed or how, but now any hint of blue just irritates me immensely. I can still appreciate a light with such a tint, but I won't be buying any and would actually light to sell off the CW lights I already have.

I changed all the lightbulbs in my house from CW CFLs to warm LEDs; my wife and I absolutely love the change.

To each his own, but I'm done with Cool White, too!


----------



## AZPops (Nov 22, 2018)

fyrstormer said:


> Those lights are installed primarily for security and insurance reasons. They run them at full brightness because bright light deters thieves and vandals. They don't particularly care how law-abiding people feel about it. Maybe if they get hundreds of complaints they'll adjust the brightness -- but if they do, they'll probably use low-frequency PWM that will be even worse, because low-frequency PWM circuits are inexpensive. It's unlikely they would get any complaints at all, though; the vast majority of people are not interesting in preserving their night vision, and would prefer bright light everywhere they go.



You could be right, re. discounting insurance rates, however IMO, it's about not changing light bulbs. One (slight) disadvantage the strip center has when they changed lighting is; I no longer look in their direction. It's just an, it is what it is type of situation.

I'm on contract, so I deal with the lighting. Regardless, I use cool white while working, on this property or another.


----------



## bykfixer (Nov 22, 2018)

Not done with cool white. 

My eyes can see better with less light using cool white. Sure, a neutral can be more pleasant at times.


----------



## Modernflame (Nov 22, 2018)

Slumber Pass said:


> I use and enjoy both. I find cool white contrasts better against ambient lighting. Indoors or in really dark environments I prefer a warmer tint.
> 
> What's the color temperature of moon light? That's been a source of night time lighting for longer than fire and candles. I know dark adapted vision doesn't see color very well.



Well put. This more or less summarizes my view point on this issue. The typical 6000K+ flashlight @ 70ish CRI is useful because of its contrast with most ambient lighting. When being run over by a car is a real danger, I reach for cool white. I keep a Malkoff M61 for this very purpose. It's less than beautiful, though. 

I can't say I'm done with cool white entirely, but I have a strong preference for neutral and/or high cri lights.


----------



## peter yetman (Nov 23, 2018)

I have made a vow to myself that I'm not buying anything but Nichia in the future.
This is a useful strategy, as it stops me from lusting after a lot of new lights that don't have that emitter. That last Cool White I purchased was an M61T, which I like, but the colour always disappoints me and I end up taking my Neutral Hound instead.
P


----------



## usdiver (Nov 23, 2018)

Modernflame said:


> Well put. This more or less summarizes my view point on this issue. The typical 6000K+ flashlight @ 70ish CRI is useful because of its contrast with most ambient lighting. When being run over by a car is a real danger, I reach for cool white. I keep a Malkoff M61 for this very purpose. It's less than beautiful, though.
> 
> I can't say I'm done with cool white entirely, but I have a strong preference for neutral and/or high cri lights.



I can actually relate to this and though I can’t see as far with my cool white seal, it IS a bright little beast considering it’s 250 lumens and has 1 battery. It actually throws as much as a similar light of 425 lumens sporting 2 batteries but the 425 has a tint closer to my high noon. As pleasing as the neutral to warmer tints are, there are still uses for the cool white as well as other uses for other tints 🤔


----------



## AMD64Blondie (Nov 30, 2018)

Agreed.I just bought a Olight S1R,and decided on the neutral white option.(4800K color temp.)


----------



## thermal guy (Nov 30, 2018)

After trying the N and W version of the M61 I agree with ya man


----------



## bykfixer (Nov 30, 2018)

Construction sites use these because they're bright.





Cost, tint, CRI etc do not play a role when it's life or death involved.

Oh, and they're cool white.





When it absolutely, positively matters, brightness comes first and cool white appears brighter.


----------



## idleprocess (Dec 1, 2018)

bykfixer said:


> Construction sites use these because they're bright.
> 
> Cost, tint, CRI etc do not play a role when it's life or death involved.
> 
> ...


High pressure sodium is something like 20 CRI and up to 160 lumens per watt. Low pressure sodium is effectively monochromatic at 0 CRI but slightly more efficient than high pressure sodium. Metal halide peaks at closer to 100 lumens per watt but can hit 90 CRI with specialty bulbs; 65 looks to be closer to what standard bulbs hit.

I'm going to speculate that the awful color accuracy of sodium lamps plays a role in an otherwise more efficient light source not being the choice for worksite lighting. Yes, the near-monochromatic high pressure sodium popular with streetlights seems dim no matter how many watts are thrown at it, but like pretty much every low-CRI light source it seems to really screw with depth perception and basic object recognition. What's _just_ sufficient not to collide with other vehicles, pedestrians, road obstacles might not be sufficient for operating heavy equipment around workers in its hazardous areas.

Honestly, I think we're basically saying the same thing. Similar lumens of high pressure sodium vs metal halide, the latter will _seem_ brighter. High pressure sodium makes the brain work so much harder to build visual comprehension of the scene.


----------



## bykfixer (Dec 1, 2018)

Worker to boss: "Hey bossman, the CRI sux from your light plants".
Boss: "Yeah? You're fired, walk home". 

When I'm working near:




A machine that eats asphalt and drinks jet fuel, I'm not very concerned about the tint of lighting tools. 





Neither is that fellow to the left.

Here is a scenario where cool white was a big help:




Having trouble with shadows hiding the concrete sliding down the flume.





Much better.

So yeah, when I'm on a leisurely stroll with Mrs. Fixer then tint can add to the relaxing experience. Yet when walking across an unlit area and I hear "give me your wallet" you can rest assured the cool white is a very effective retina zapper. Cool white has it's virtues.


----------



## Grijon (Dec 1, 2018)

I drive a concrete mixer for a living, and I never thought I'd see one on CPF.

Thanks, bykfixer!


----------



## ven (Dec 1, 2018)

Awesome pics mr fixer


----------



## JohnnyBravo (Dec 9, 2018)

I concur. I believe I've purged my entire collection of cools. Either sold or gave them away. I like warm to neutrals with a slight lean towards the warms...


----------



## MeMeMe (Dec 9, 2018)

Lumen83 said:


> Bluer tints will make you feel more awake though. More alert, but less capable of picking up on details and reacting to the environment. How much of this is practically measurable vs. theory? I don't know.



It is practically measurable (at least reaction speed to environment), and your theory ... is wrong. You react much faster to low level light that is cooler than warmer.


----------



## MeMeMe (Dec 9, 2018)

Mark Anthony said:


> Agreed.
> 
> Humans spent hundreds of thousands of years looking at an amber camp fire at night before going to sleep. Blue light stops melatonin production and wakes you up, which can disrupt sleep cycles if exposed too late in the evening.
> 
> ...



.... and animals have been functioning with 4000K (approx) moonlight for 100's of millions of years, and there is likely far more evolutionary pressure for being able to function in moonlight versus around the campfire. 

Warm is not better for color rendition. That makes no sense. There is not enough blue to enable color discrimination across a fairly wide range of colors, especially for things like wire). Even for blood, there is little benefit for a warm light. A high CRI cool light will be just fine ... just like sunlight.


----------



## fyrstormer (Dec 10, 2018)

Moonlight may be ~4,000K, but overall ambient light at night is closer to 20,000K.


----------



## markr6 (Dec 10, 2018)

JohnnyBravo said:


> I concur. I believe I've purged my entire collection of cools. Either sold or gave them away. I like warm to neutrals with a slight lean towards the warms...



Same here. I have one remaining cool white.


----------



## peter yetman (Dec 10, 2018)

I'm still determined that I'll buy nothing but Nichia in the future, but I have to say that Cool White does have its uses.
I use a 6200K HDS at the Brewery, nothing cuts through steam like this to be able to read fluid levels, and nothing is as efficient as CW to highlight any bits of grot in otherwise sterile tanks.
It doesn't give me that strange priveval satisfaction that a decent 219B does, though.
P


----------



## Mark Anthony (Dec 11, 2018)

MeMeMe said:


> .... and animals have been functioning with 4000K (approx) moonlight for 100's of millions of years, and there is likely far more evolutionary pressure for being able to function in moonlight versus around the campfire.
> 
> Warm is not better for color rendition. That makes no sense. There is not enough blue to enable color discrimination across a fairly wide range of colors, especially for things like wire). Even for blood, there is little benefit for a warm light. A high CRI cool light will be just fine ... just like sunlight.



References:
Light color and sleep is real. I recently overcame a sleep issue and cool lights at night were a factor
Light color and sleep:https://medium.com/@jubishop/how-to-get-better-sleep-fcb74f4df0b5

Good point on the moonlight and animals, but probably really counts on/near the full moon, and when it's clear. And it still disrupts sleep.
Moonlight and sleep:https://www.cell.com/current-biology/fulltext/S0960-9822(13)00754-9

It might be one reason people and animals go crazy during a full moon 

CRI: Warm lights having better color rendition than cool lights are just my opinion and I should have said as such. They are skewed to the red spectrum but not as much as cool lights are skewed to the blue. Both are incomplete spectrums but in my experience cool light washes out colors more so than warm. To take the moonlight example, I find true colors are harder to differentiate during a full moon than they are at sunrise or sunset.

If color rendition is important then yes always go for the high CRI option.


----------



## idleprocess (Dec 11, 2018)

Mark Anthony said:


> CRI: Warm lights having better color rendition than cool lights are just my opinion and I should have said as such. They are skewed to the red spectrum but not as much as cool lights are skewed to the blue. Both are incomplete spectrums but in my experience cool light washes out colors more so than warm. To take the moonlight example, I find true colors are harder to differentiate during a full moon than they are at sunrise or sunset.



*Sunrise/sunset on a clear day*: ~400 lux
*Full moon on a clear night*: _up to_ 0.3 lux

I'm sure that a *1333* factor difference in light is more important than the CCT differences between sources - especially when one is so dim as to be _just_ capable of triggering color vision. My experience with the fullest of moons on the clearest of nights outside of ambient city lighting has been one of _really sharp night vision with touches of color_. Contrast to sunrise/sunset which shade things red but otherwise color vision remains fully engaged.

Much of the conversation has been about _firelight_ - which might technically be 100 CRI as a blackbody radiator but is so deficient in green and blue as to be outside of what most would consider "high CRI" light. My experience with it has been one of warm colors being vivid - red, orange, yellow - but the green and blue ends being almost absent, similar to high pressure sodium lights. I've heard 1900K CCT for wood flame, which is so heavy on red that whatever green or blue is present is hardly perceived; here's the only reference I was able to find quickly - note that Figure 2 uses kerosene fire as its reference.

Our visual perception is - pardon the pun - colored by our past experiences. For a sizable fraction of the population that's going to skew towards warm CCTs since we grew up with incandescent light sources. Throw in a markedly different CCT for someone used to a given range - even with markedly higher color accuracy - and they won't be effective with it until after some period of adjustment.



Mark Anthony said:


> If color rendition is important then yes always go for the high CRI option.


Seriously, this. Whatever your subjective preference or professional experience, _quantitative color accuracy_ should be sought when important ... in a CCT you're comfortable with.


----------



## klrman (Dec 15, 2018)

After collecting many lights, too many probably, I prefer CW in my throwers and NW in my flooders. I sold all my CW flooders and NW throwers.


----------



## bykfixer (Dec 21, 2018)

I like my cool white PKDL FL2, my neutral Elzetta Bones and my warm Kel-Lites. Heck, if I push the button and light comes out I don't care if the tint is baby blue. My eyes adapt.

The other night at a mall the Mrs. and I were leaving a store and could not find the car. Those so-called high CRI parking lot lights made the champagne colored car look white. We finally looked at license plates to find it.


----------



## LogansRun (Dec 23, 2018)

trailhunter said:


> I like CW for mountain bike riding, neutral white didnt provide the details I needed. Neutral white for the casual flashlight use.


Guess it's very individual,since mountain biking is what brought me to NW lights. I mountain-biked with cool white LED's when 200lmns was a lot of light and I remember being excited as I had a new 65lmn headlamp that I used on single-track and fire-roads. Well, as soon as I turned on the light, I was so disappointed as everything was washed out and everything was flat. Luckily, I also had another light strapped to my handlebar at a lower angle that gave me some definition.



Rockjunkie15 said:


> Mountain biking is what led me to NW in the first place. My eyes used to get so exhausted with 6500k, once I switched to 5000k that problem was gone and I’ve never gone back...


Similar experience here, after being disappointed with CW emitters, I got myself a custom-built headlamp with triple Seoul USVOH tint (remember those??) and the difference was astounding as I could suddenly see more detail on the trails. Since then I look first for NW and have been slowly upgrading drop-in's with 4000K LED's.

Having said that, I have grudgingly bought lights for my road bike that are CW... not great but not as critical as mountain-biking lights.


----------



## jon_slider (Dec 24, 2018)

Cool White is not so bad IF it is High CRI and Neutral Tint.

Try a Sofirn C01 in 5600k if you want an inexpensive introduction to High CRI Cool White with Neutral Tint.

begin sermon about Tint, CRI, and Color Temperature terminology:

Neutral White does not necessarily mean High CRI
Most High CRI LEDs are not Cool White
Most Cool White LEDs are not High CRI

When my brain has its white balance set to Cool White, I dont like to use flashlights that are Warm White
When my brain has its white balance set to Warm White, I dont like to use flashlights that are Cool White

I dont like Low CRI, I do like High CRI

Cool White High CRI:






Cool White Low CRI:





Warm White High CRI:





Warm, Neutral, and Cool White are not Tints, they are Color Temperatures
Tint refers to colors above (green, yellow), and below (pink, magenta) the BBL (Neutral Tint Line).
Neutral Tint is not the same as Neutral White Color Temperature

I have Neutral White Lights that do not have Neutral Tint, and that are not High CRI. I prefer not to use them.


----------



## trailhunter (Dec 24, 2018)

I'm done with this thread, unsubscribing


----------



## Modernflame (Dec 24, 2018)

jon_slider said:


> Neutral White does not necessarily mean High CRI
> Most High CRI LEDs are not Cool White
> Most Cool White LEDs are not High CRI



Good summary, Jon. The tie dye reveals much about your personality.


----------



## bykfixer (Dec 25, 2018)

Things can also be subjective to the user as well.

Case in point is that the top photo in jon's post appears more natural to me than the bottom one.


----------



## jon_slider (Dec 25, 2018)

bykfixer said:


> Things can also be subjective to the user as well.
> 
> Case in point is that the top photo in jon's post appears more natural to me than the bottom one.



I agree completely.
The top photo is the 5600k High CRI Sofirn C01 and yes, it looks more like daylight (5500 Kelvin Color Temperature).

The bottom photo is the 3200k High CRI Sofirn C01 and yes, it looks extra warm, more like candlelight (2000 Kelvin Color Temperature).

I like the option to use both, at different times.

The warm one is much more pleasant in full darkness, than the cool one, which feels cold.

otoh, when my brain is adapted to daylight color temperature (5500k), the cool one looks better, and the warm one looks too orange.

I like warmer light when my brain is adapted to darkness. I like cooler light when my brain is adapted to cool ambient light.

in ALL cases, I want High CRI.

The middle photo is a Cool White Low CRI Fenix E01 (about 6000 Kelvin Color Temperature). I hate its poor color rendering at all times, of day or night.

Im done with Low CRI Cool White, Im also done with Low CRI Neutral White and Im also done with Low CRI Warm White.

Merry Xmas!


----------



## koziy (Dec 31, 2018)

People will probably look at my post count and say "pfft, what a typical plebeian opinion," and I admit I'm not as much of a flashlight-a-holic as some other people here, but I honestly prefer a cooler beam for almost everything in the outdoors. I have been a little bit frustrated lately with the industry trend toward warmer beams, which is what brought me to make an account here, hoping to find more options for LED flashlights with cooler tinted beams.

Now don't get me wrong, I recognize that there are situations where a neutral or warm tinted white light is just better for certain things... For example, my dog has a cut on his neck and a little earlier today I checked it for redness to see how it's healing up. I grabbed a flashlight with a very neutral/warmish tint so I could ascertain any redness on his skin around his cut with high confidence in the colors I was seeing. Since it's not my own skin, I don't know if it's painful. All I have to go on is redness, so color accuracy is vitally important to the task.

However, in the outdoors, especially in eastern woodlands where the brown, leafy groundcover is a little bit too low contrast to make out the trail in the first place, I feel like cool white beams do a better job of clarifying details in the trail, whereas neutral white or warmer tints do not. Warmer tint beams in the woods just don't seem as bright to me, and one of my reasons for saying that is comparing my older the Fenix HP25 headlamp's cool white beam against the newer model, the HP25R, that's supposed to have the same light characteristics except for its neutral white LED and supposedly higher lumen rating. Unfortunately, when in actual use, the original HP25 renders a far brighter and clearer scene to my eyes. I also compared a Maratac AAA Rev 3 vs the newer Rev 5, which again are supposed to be the same light except for the tint of white and the lumen rating, and I can't think of a single situation in the outdoors where I'd prefer the higher lumen neutral white over the lower lumen cool white beam. Maybe those are bad examples, but like I said, it was my distaste for these two examples that prompted me to join this forum, so it only seemed appropriate that I share that with this thread.


----------



## Modernflame (Jan 1, 2019)

koziy said:


> I have been a little bit frustrated lately with the industry trend toward warmer beams, which is what brought me to make an account here, hoping to find more options for LED flashlights with cooler tinted beams.



No worries. It's true that the industry has made strides to accommodate people who prefer warmer tints, but the majority of LED flashlights on the market still have CW emitters. You won't have any trouble finding one to your liking.


----------



## Chauncey Gardiner (Jan 1, 2019)

koziy said:


> People will probably look at my post count and say "pfft, what a typical plebeian opinion,"......



Hi koziy. :welcome: 

~ Chance


----------



## bykfixer (Jan 1, 2019)

Welcome aboard kozly.

Great first post.


----------



## jon_slider (Jan 1, 2019)

koziy said:


> I grabbed a flashlight with a very neutral/warmish tint so I could ascertain any redness on his skin around his cut with high confidence in the colors I was seeing. Since it's not my own skin, I don't know if it's painful. All I have to go on is redness, so color accuracy is vitally important to the task.



Welcome and Happy New Year.
Enjoyed reading your well thought out post and examples.

I respect that you like cool white better than neutral white. I dont like neutral white, nor cool white, unless they are High CRI.

Neutral white does not have better color accuracy. Color accuracy comes from High CRI.

You can have cool white with High CRI, and that may be the best combination for you. I encourage you to try a High CRI light, in the color temperature you prefer.


----------



## idleprocess (Jan 1, 2019)

koziy said:


> I have been a little bit frustrated lately with the industry trend toward warmer beams, which is what brought me to make an account here, hoping to find more options for LED flashlights with cooler tinted beams.





Modernflame said:


> No worries. It's true that the industry has made strides to accommodate people who prefer warmer tints, but the majority of LED flashlights on the market still have CW emitters. You won't have any trouble finding one to your liking.



Seconded. >5000K isn't going anywhere in the _industry as a whole_ simply because the larger market responds to cool white's higher efficiency and perceived brightness advantage over same-lumens emitters that have warmer temperatures. Current LED technology (blue die + yellow phosphor) is inherently more efficient in terms of lumens/watt with cool temperatures.

Some makers that cater to the CPF demographic might focus their offerings to ≤5000K, but with high CRI being steadily easier to obtain across the range of tints I suspect that they will accommodate the range of preferences.

Me, I just wish that neutral tints _remain available_ in decent CRI. If others want warm or cool, I imagine the the market will continue to provide.


----------



## jon_slider (Jan 1, 2019)

idleprocess said:


> the larger market responds to cool white's higher efficiency and perceived brightness advantage over same-lumens emitters that have warmer temperatures.



I agree completely that the lumens race is alive and well, and new buyers always choose the light with the most lumens.

In my experience even Low CRI, neutral white emitters do not have the same lumens as cool white emitters.

for example, the Titanium Neutral White S Mini tested by maukka @ 515 lumens, the Copper Olight S Mini in Cool White tested @ 580 lumens, which is 13% brighter.

so the Neutral White not only Looks dimmer, it IS Dimmer.

the brightness penalty is even larger for High CRI, 
Olight S1 Mini Cool White is rated for 600 lumens, while the High CRI is rated for 450 lumens.. that makes the Cool White a full 1/3 brighter.

clearly a flashlight buyer that has not learned the value of High CRI will choose the 600 lumen model over the 450 lumen model.

Marketing focuses on Lumens, and most buyers do too. Cool White has the most lumens.


----------



## WalkIntoTheLight (Jan 1, 2019)

koziy said:


> However, in the outdoors, especially in eastern woodlands where the brown, leafy groundcover is a little bit too low contrast to make out the trail in the first place, I feel like cool white beams do a better job of clarifying details in the trail, whereas neutral white or warmer tints do not.



Brown leaf litter? A high CRI neutral white or warm white is the answer. Yes, it will be dimmer than cool white, but it will show much better color contrast, and make those different shades of brown stand out much better. It will allow you to see more with less lumens, with a nice side effect of preserving your night vision a bit better.

IMO, low-CRI cool white is almost never the correct answer, unless there's almost no color contrast in a scene (such as a parking garage or something like that).


----------



## flashfan (Jan 1, 2019)

Cool white (5000+) is a general preference, but outdoors at night, somewhat warm tints make things look more "natural," and with better depth...but that's to my eyes only. 

Try this at night: take out each of a black, a dark navy blue, a dark brown and/or a very dark green sock, and place them side by side. Now using different tints, which light works best to differentiate the colors? For me _many_ years ago, the cool white LED worked best...but I did not (still do not) have CRI lights...


----------



## jon_slider (Jan 1, 2019)

flashfan said:


> Try this at night: take out each of a black, a dark navy blue, a dark brown and/or a very dark green sock, and place them side by side. Now using different tints, which light works best to differentiate the colors? For me _many_ years ago, the cool white LED worked best...but I did not (still do not) have CRI lights...



I like your suggestion, please dont take the following comments as criticism

Low CRI LEDs are good at showing blues and greens and they make red things look brown
High CRI LEDs are good at also showing Reds, Pinks and Oranges

what Low CRI LEDs have the biggest disadvantage with, is Red. Here is what a Low CRI Neutral White LED looks like, focus on the R9 bar:






here is a Low CRI Cool White LED:
again, focus on the Red, R9 bar





the Red content of an LED is the biggest difference in the overall CRI. Not all High CRI LEDs have the same amount of Red output:
the LED on the left has a very green tint in real life, the one on the right has a very pink tint. I prefer Pink over Green, when looking at food with reds in it, and people's skin.





In the above color bar charts, the white bar is what is commonly reported as the CRI of a light. It is an average of the first 8 other bars (R-1 to R8). So, a light can technically be called "High CRI" and still have relatively poor Red Rendering.


An easy test to compare low cri and high cri, is to shine each light on the palm of my hand.. the low CRI looks green, lifeless, like a zombie... The high CRI will show the reds, pinks, flesh tones, and life, in my hand, or food


----------



## staticx57 (Jan 1, 2019)

Just to prove jon's point that Color Temp and CRI are independant here is a test of the 6500k Nichia E21A R9080

Colors are better than most neutral and warm white LEDs.


----------



## bykfixer (Jan 1, 2019)

Bring on the charts and graphs... 

The computer says your eyes are wrong....

Much depends on preference. Such as some people like cool weather, others like warm. Neither is wrong. But if I put my mind to it I'm certain I could find analisys to point out my preference is better.


----------



## jon_slider (Jan 1, 2019)

bykfixer said:


> preference



charts and graphs are very useful, they save thousands of words

some people, including me, tend to dislike Cool White because it is Low CRI, not because it is cool

and some people like cool white, not because it is Low CRI, but because it is brighter, AND more closely matches the ambient light their brain has set its white balance to


cool or warm preferences are based mostly on the white balance of the brain at the time

I prefer cool when my brain is adapted to cool (during sunlight or metal halide adaptations, for example)

I prefer warmer when my brain is adapted to warmer (at night in full darkness, or when adapted to warm white incandescent, for example)


Now there are Cool White options that are ALSO high CRI, so for someone that likes, wants, or needs Cool White, they can now also have High CRI

win win

I plan to add a Cool White High CRI option, to my collection
this is an outstanding example: 


staticx57 said:


> Just to prove jon's point that Color Temp and CRI are independant here is a test of the 6500k Nichia E21A R9080
> 
> Colors are better than most neutral and warm white LEDs.



@bykfixer, I think you would like Cool White in High CRI too


----------



## bigburly912 (Jan 1, 2019)

I just want to be the guy to say. I have high cri lights, I have never been in a real life situation that I’ve needed a high cri light. As long as I can tell what something is I’m good. I can differentiate colors well enough with any light. I do enjoy the high cri though just no real need for it.


----------



## idleprocess (Jan 2, 2019)

bykfixer said:


> Bring on the charts and graphs...
> 
> The computer says your eyes are wrong....
> 
> Much depends on preference. Such as some people like cool weather, others like warm. Neither is wrong. But if I put my mind to it I'm certain I could find analisys to point out my preference is better.



The human brain is a marvelous image processor. Working with partial inputs from the eyes it can construct a complete image based on past experience. And we can adapt to new experiences; I'm presently struggling with slightly different key spacing on a new keyboard and committing constant errors typing this but I expect to overcome with time and effort.

However, preference is just that and short of demonstrable performance deficiency as a result of preference, I see no benefit to _my dog is better than your dog_ tint arguments.



Bigburly912 said:


> I just want to be the guy to say. I have high cri lights, I have never been in a real life situation that I’ve needed a high cri light. As long as I can tell what something is I’m good. I can differentiate colors well enough with any light. I do enjoy the high cri though just no real need for it.



Yeah, I doubt many are using their flashlights for color separations, auto body paint matching, surgery, or many other color-accuracy *critical* applications. Myself I'm just glad we've left the days of angry Nichia blue and Luxeon tint lottery with unspecified CRI figures long behind us.


----------



## bigburly912 (Jan 2, 2019)

idleprocess said:


> ] Myself I'm just glad we've left the days of angry Nichia blue and Luxeon tint lottery with unspecified CRI figures long behind us.



Amen and that’s what it’s really all about. Moving forward and lights getting better and better. This time next year everything will be 150 cri .05-250000 Lumen auto ramping to computer aided Suggested Lumen needs. [emoji16]


----------



## WalkIntoTheLight (Jan 2, 2019)

jon_slider said:


> Now there are Cool White options that are ALSO high CRI, so for someone that likes, wants, or needs Cool White, they can now also have High CRI



Yeah, I'm not a cool white fan, but a high CRI cool white is a huge improvement over regular cool white. It makes things look sharp and vibrant, and has an "awake" mid-day look.

I still prefer a regular 80CRI neutral or warm white, though. High CRI neutral or warm, definitely better!


----------



## markr6 (Jan 2, 2019)

Instead of picking a side I just prefer a middle of the road neutral with the least tint as possible (no green or yellow for sure).

High CRI is always nice. I can get by in life with a neon glow stick if I had to, but it's nice to have something you really enjoy regardless of what a chart or analyzer says.

I love that part from The Abyss when he's disabling the nuke.

_All right, Bud, you have to cut the ground wire, not the lead wire. It's the blue wire with the white stripe. Not...I repeat...not the black wire with the yellow stripe.




_


----------



## LGT (Jan 2, 2019)

I totally prefer CW in the winter while there is snow on the ground. Just about all other applications, give me a NW.


----------



## Modernflame (Jan 2, 2019)

markr6 said:


> I love that part from The Abyss when he's disabling the nuke.
> 
> _All right, Bud, you have to cut the ground wire, not the lead wire. It's the blue wire with the white stripe. Not...I repeat...not the black wire with the yellow stripe._



OMG, that's brilliant. From the depths of the mental archives.


----------



## markr6 (Jan 3, 2019)

Modernflame said:


> OMG, that's brilliant. From the depths of the mental archives.



Great movie! It can get a little lengthy but that's what makes it even better if you do it right. They certainly did it right.


----------

