# Mods for my HF 8x14 lathe ...



## wquiles

*Mods and tooling for my HF 8x14 lathe ...*

I decided to start a new one thread since my initial thread was getting heavy on pictures: http://candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=162307

I finished cutting the key slot by hand - it does not look pretty but there is zero play:












I was able to reuse the old metal ring to hold the pulley in place, and I was lucky to find an old screw that was a perfect match to the new shaft!:






Here is the big and heavy 1HP motor bolted (loosely for now to check alignments) to the lathe:
















and here is how closely I was able to get the pulley aligned with the tensioner and other pulley - beguiner's luck!:






Now that I was able to "fit" the 1HP motor, I can start looking at the electronics part of this project 

Will


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## TranquillityBase

That keyway looks perrrrfect to me..., nice job Will:twothumbs

We like picture heavy threads...Get back to work, we want to see more!


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## yclo

Wow, must have used up a lot of elbow grease! :thumbsup:


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## PEU

TranquillityBase said:


> That keyway looks perrrrfect to me..., nice job Will:twothumbs
> 
> We like picture heavy threads...Get back to work, we want to see more!



+1 Exactly my toughts 


Pablo


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## will

Nice job. 

I do some work on metal by hand, I picked up a few files with different cuts, some are rough, some smooth. It just makes it easier to remove large amounts of metal.


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## wquiles

will said:


> Nice job.
> 
> I do some work on metal by hand, I picked up a few files with different cuts, some are rough, some smooth. It just makes it easier to remove large amounts of metal.



Thanks, and my the way, I did try your "flattening" method with the pulley and it does help a little - thanks 

Will


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## will

wquiles said:


> Thanks, and my the way, I did try your "flattening" method with the pulley and it does help a little - thanks
> 
> Will



That method will just get a little bit, anything beyond that would require a very different method.

When do we start to see some chips on that lathe?


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## sortafast

Wish i had the money to put into a project like that for my 8x14 HF lathe. Right now I am trying to get the $$$ set aside for doing a shumatech DRO, but the 1hp motor is on the agenda after that.


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## wquiles

will said:


> When do we start to see some chips on that lathe?



Will - It will probably be a while longer 

1) I still have to order a few fuses and the high power HP resistor for my control unit and figure out the wiring since the built-in wiring/components sucks, and since I of course need to add the speed control, heatsink, safely wiring this to my 220AC supply, etc..

2) I need to lap all of the non-hardened surfaces like I did on my mini-mill - that by itself will take a while

3) I am considering doing the Shumatech DRO "before" I even cut any metals - might as well start with the machine "ready". This is a project on to itself ...

4) I want to install a 6" dia, 4-independent jaw chuck - and I need to make or modify the adapter Modamag (Jonathan) sent since it does not fit my lathe 

So basically, I still see a couple of more months before you will see any chips flying ... :mecry:

Although I am not yet doing any fun and/or flashlight projects with the new (yet to be used lathe), in a way doing these mods is a fun project by itself. I am learning a few things here and there as I work on these mods, and I still have my smaller lathe and mini mill to help me make/modify stuff that I might need for the project. I am actually having lots of fun doing this - I just wish I had more time to finish sooner 

Will


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## will

Is the 220 single phase? now that I think about it, it must be. 

Why are you lapping the the non hardened parts? I generally just go over the metal with some 600 wet or dry to make sure there are no high spots. Then I coat them with some oil. 

One thing I did which saves me time.
I use the cross slide to cut various angles. I put a dial indicator on the lathe, then I made sure that the 0 degree setting was dead on with the dial guage reading the same as I cranked the carriage across. Once that was set at dead '0' I drilled a 1/8 inch hole through the part that carriage is on to the assembly that moves the whole thing. That way - when I want to set it back to '0' all I have to do is put the back of a 1/8 inch drill through the 2 holes and it is lined back up to dead '0' This is sorta like a detent to reset various tools back to some preset setting. 

I set the whole thing up, then removed the entire setup and drilled it on my drill press.


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## wquiles

will said:


> Is the 220 single phase? now that I think about it, it must be.
> 
> Why are you lapping the the non hardened parts? I generally just go over the metal with some 600 wet or dry to make sure there are no high spots. Then I coat them with some oil.
> 
> One thing I did which saves me time.
> I use the cross slide to cut various angles. I put a dial indicator on the lathe, then I made sure that the 0 degree setting was dead on with the dial guage reading the same as I cranked the carriage across. Once that was set at dead '0' I drilled a 1/8 inch hole through the part that carriage is on to the assembly that moves the whole thing. That way - when I want to set it back to '0' all I have to do is put the back of a 1/8 inch drill through the 2 holes and it is lined back up to dead '0' This is sorta like a detent to reset various tools back to some preset setting.
> 
> I set the whole thing up, then removed the entire setup and drilled it on my drill press.



Yes, single phase.

lapping - because I have done it twice before and it really works. I get very smooth functioning "and" tighter at the same time. Of course, there is a point of diminishing returns, so the key for me is to remove enough of the high points with lapping (I use wheel polishing paste).

I love your idea of the indexing to zero - I will look into doing that when I re-assemble the lathe.

Thanks Will 


Will


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## wykeite

I love what you're doing with that lathe, mine's similar, a Compact 8 by Emco. I love it.

The only thing that concerns me is your overboring the pulley. If I had overbored it I would have gone much bigger and made a keyed bush to fit. There may be a chance once you get a bit of work under it's belt the keyway in the motor shaft will get distorted which will prove expensive. Alternately you might want to consider a liberal dose of Loctite.

Good luck with the project.

Jim


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## wquiles

To keep this post complete, here are the latest mods on my "new" lathe:

- Variable Speed DC Motor/Controller up and running:
http://candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=193712

- Bison 6" Set-tru 6-jaw chuck installed in temporary custom Al mounting plate:
http://candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=195665


Will


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## wquiles

New tooling that I got for my new lathe:

Here is my new internal threading tool next to the old one (which I still need to send to Milkey!):











and some more closeups:











For external threading, I am using this cutting/grooving tool which also can be used with a special threading bit:





















Here is my new parting tool with carbide inserts - works great!:
















It would not sit low enough, so I had to mill part of the steel holder appropriately:






And although I have some generic turning tools, I bought this one which I will use for the bulk of my turning operations:











For boring, for now I am re-using my old carbide insert tools, but I hope to buy a solid carbide body version (still with carbide inserts) shortly:






Will


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## gadget_lover

Very impressive Will. I really like your setup.

You've come a long way in only two years.

Daniel


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## wquiles

Thanks Daniel - I am still in learning mode. I just spent the last few nights and this morning re-learning how to do thread with my new lathe and new tool. I can now thread in about 1/4 of the time and the 2HP has tons or torque for threading really slow, which is of course safer 

The one thing missing on my lathe (that was built-in the small lathe) that I want to add right now is a lever to engage/disengage the screw that moves the carriage while threading. Right now I have to open the belt cover, and manually move in/out the thread gears


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## jhanko

Will,
What model quick change post is that and how does it attach to the compound? I'm looking for the same setup for my new lathe, but am unsure which one to get. No one knows which one fits my lathe as it is brand new to the US. I have a post that is threaded into the compound. Is your compound the same way?

Jeff


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## KC2IXE

Which parting tool (block, blade and insert) is that? I've been looking for one, and could never find one to fit 100 series holders


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## wquiles

JHanko said:


> Will,
> What model quick change post is that and how does it attach to the compound? I'm looking for the same setup for my new lathe, but am unsure which one to get. No one knows which one fits my lathe as it is brand new to the US. I have a post that is threaded into the compound. Is your compound the same way?
> 
> Jeff



I bought them from Lathemaster - specifically since those that Lathemaster sells are made to be a direct fit to the HF8x12 and of course the Lathemaster 8x14 (same identical machine):
http://lathemaster.com/QUICK%20CHANGE%20TOOL%20POST%20SET.htm







Lathemaster sells two types of tool holders if you need additional ones: the STANDARD AXA TYPE and the LATHEMASTER CUSTOM TYPE (which have a "T" in front of the part number). If you have the HF/LM lathe, you want the ones with the T 

From looking at the pictures of your lathe and mine, it looks like we have the same style tool holder (also threaded), so I would say that it is likely that your lathe and I likely use the same one:





Will


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## wquiles

KC2IXE said:


> Which parting tool (block, blade and insert) is that? I've been looking for one, and could never find one to fit 100 series holders



Its an USA Cut Off Tool Kit from Enco - also on special, also with the extra 20% discount. 

And no, it does not fit the 100 series holders, but I "made" it fit on my mini-mill. It works REALLY good 

Will


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## frisco

Hey Will,

I need the threading tools (and parting tool) you have. I see the above post on the Enco Parting tool..... Where did you get the threading tools?

Thanks, frisco


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## wquiles

SECO Snap-Tap Internal Threading Holder with with partial profile (48-8 TPI range) threading inserts (3 corners!). I just started using for creating internal threads on cut down 1C's, and it is working GREAT, plus it was on special and more so with the extra 20% off!

http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INPDFF?PMPAGE=195&PMITEM=RZ619-3811


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## wquiles

I started to use my new turning tool, but like a total idiot I did not bother to read on how to use it :duh2: . So I started cutting with it just using the steel anvil, as it were the actual cutter, and since did not had enough clearance when doing a facing operation, I even grinded away a little bit on its side!:







I then tried the actual inserts that came up with the kit, and tried to mount the insert it without the anvil, but it did not look secure/strong:






Thinking something was wrong, I went to the SECO website, and sure enough it showed the proper way of using the inserts, putting the anvil first, then the insert - that way the anvil gives the insert greater support/rigidity. The coolest thing about these inserts, is that they are completely symmetrical, and given the angle at which the insert cuts the metal, I can use not just 3 corners, but actually all 6 corners per insert!.

Look at the angled cut here (even with the anvil it still has that "down" angle which offers a sharp corner to cut in turning and facing operations):






Look at the inserts here:
















Of course, now that I have the insert set properly, it sits too high!. So using the mini-mill, I was able to cut the steel holder so that it can go down some more (I had modded the holder in the mini-mill previously as well in order to hold the 5/8" shank since the holder only does 1/2"):






here, it is out of focus, but you get the idea as it can go deeper now:






Now that I had more range, I started to find the sweet point (not quite there in these pics):











Here is the holder with the anvil and insert "properly" in place:


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## wquiles

So I finally got the Jacobs Super Chuck today (on special, plus with the extra 20% coupon "still" valid!). Actually, in a trick/tip from my wife, I got two of them with the intent of returning one: the 16N and the 14N, 





















After trying both, I am keeping the larger one, the 16N:
















The only problem was that the chuck to MT2 adapter has the little tail that goes too deep into the tailstock, robbing me of 10mm of travel:





















Thankfully this is not hardened, so I "trimmed" it and gave it a small bevel on the cut end:











Now everything fits perfectly:






Will


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## gadget_lover

That looks real nice. Buying both and returning one comes with a cost, but it's one way to compare the two models. 

I'm getting more and more envious.  It's looking really, really nice.


On the subject of MT2 adapters that are too long... I had that problem with one of the first accessories that I got for my 7x10. Like Will, I took a hacksaw to it. In my case, I hacked off the end without thinking it through. The lathe ejects the MT2 by bumping into the end of it with the end of the feed screw.

Yep, you guessed it, I cut off a random amount, and it would no longer 'bump' it free. My solution was to drill and tap the end of the adapter and attach a small spacer. Now it ejects properly again. 

Daniel


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## Mirage_Man

Hey your chuck's bigger than my chuck . 

I can see why you cut the end off the MT because of the travel but it's there so it will pop out when you crank the tail stock quill back. Did you leave enough so that it will still do that?


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## wquiles

gadget_lover said:


> The lathe ejects the MT2 by bumping into the end of it with the end of the feed screw.


Yep, I noticed this with mine as well. I used the MT2 end point (which ejects properly) as a guide for overall length before cutting the adaptor:








Mirage_Man said:


> Hey your chuck's bigger than my chuck .


Well, your current and future lathe are much larger than mine 




Mirage_Man said:


> I can see why you cut the end off the MT because of the travel but it's there so it will pop out when you crank the tail stock quill back. Did you leave enough so that it will still do that?


Yes, it still pop outs as it should. I got lucky and nail it on the first try - pure beginner's luck


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## Mirage_Man

wquiles said:


> Yes, it still pop outs as it should. I got lucky and nail it on the first try - pure beginner's luck



Cool!


wquiles said:


> Well, your current and future lathe are much larger than mine



I tell you one thing I'm looking forward to on the new lathe is the tail stock quill. It's 1+5/8" in diameter and has almost 4.5" of travel compared to the 2" the Heavy 10 has. Here I come 2 cell ti bodies .


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## wquiles

Mirage_Man said:


> I tell you one thing I'm looking forward to on the new lathe is the tail stock quill. It's 1+5/8" in diameter and has almost 4.5" of travel compared to the 2" the Heavy 10 has. Here I come 2 cell ti bodies .


I would have though the Heavy 10 would have more than 2" of travel since my HF 8x14 has 2.5" of travel  . At any rate, your new lathe sure looks/sounds awesome


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## Mirage_Man

wquiles said:


> I would have though the Heavy 10 would have more than 2" of travel since my HF 8x14 has 2.5" of travel  . At any rate, your new lathe sure looks/sounds awesome



Yeah, the Heavy 10 has it's good and bad points. I'm thinking about keeping it in the shop for second ops.


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## brickbat

wquiles said:


> ...
> 
> Look at the angled cut here (even with the anvil it still has that "down" angle which offers a sharp corner to cut in turning and facing operations...



Nice, nice, nice.

Seems like just what I've been searching for my new old Logan.

From what I've gathered, the down angle you mention is considered a good thing for small lathes, like ours, but I thought it was referred to as having positive rake.

But, when I look up your MWLNR-10-3A toolholder on SECO's website, is is specified as having -5 degrees of cutting rake. What am I missing?

BTW, if you ever need extra QC tool holders, you might check here:

http://www.cdcotools.com/index.php

$9 a pop!


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## wquiles

brickbat said:


> But, when I look up your MWLNR-10-3A toolholder on SECO's website, is is specified as having -5 degrees of cutting rake. What am I missing?


I honestly don't know - maybe how they measure it is different? 





brickbat said:


> BTW, if you ever need extra QC tool holders, you might check here:
> 
> http://www.cdcotools.com/index.php
> 
> $9 a pop!



AWESOME find - thanks! I actually need to buy a few more for the new tools I got


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## wquiles

Well, thanks to *brickbat* (Jim) on the info about link above, I ordered a new tool for my mini lathe: its an R8 shank, 3" dia, 5-cutter milling head ($49 "with" the inserts!):






But first, and introduction as to why I "needed" such a piece ...

The problem I have (and anyone using the Axa 100 series tool post) on the HF 8x14 or LM 8x14 lathe, is that that tool post/holders are a "tad" too big for our lathe. The Axa 100 series stuff is capable of a lathe with a swing from 9-12". Since my lathe is only 8" swing, most stuff does work OK.


What the good folks at Lathemaster do, is that they provided tool holders already "modified" for the 8x14 size machine. When you order the tool holders from them, you have the option of specifying:
http://lathemaster.com/QUICK%20CHANGE%20HOLDERS.htm

STANDARD AXA TYPE 
ITEM: 250-101 

or

LATHEMASTER CUSTOM TYPE

ITEM: T250-101

(the 101 or 102 at the end notes if you have the extra cut to hold round tools)

Well, if you ever wanted to know what is the difference, here is why. Here is the standard holder (250-101):











and here is the modified holder, difference being the "T" in front (T250-102):











and both on a side view (standard holder on the left - notice how the cutter would sit lower on the "T" holder on the right):






standard holder in the bottom:






Notice how in the modified holder the bottom is not as thick, which allows the tool holder to sit lower on the tool post, therefore allowing the tool a chance to work with a lower centerline - pretty simple and clever, right?


The problem is when you have somebody like me who wants to use tools designed for the larger lathes on my HF 8x14. In that case, even the lower/modified holder does not sit low enough. In that case, I have to modify the modified holders some more:











For that cut, I have been using this bit (and a 4-flute bit) on my mini-mill:






But if you look at the cut above, it is not very smooth, and it is a VERY slow process (many, many small passes) in my mini-mill since all of these holders are in steel, not aluminum.

With the new carbide-tipped milling head, it is literally a piece of cake to make these cuts (hard drive magnets on that tool vice - tip learned here in the forums!):






This has been the best $49 spend on the mini-mill so far - having the right tool is awesome!


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## wquiles

I fially was able to get the solid carbide bars with carbide inserts. Top to bottom: 
- normal steel 1/2" boring bar - triangular inserts 
- solid carbide boring bar - 1/2" - CCMT 21.5 inserts
- solid carbide boring bar - 3/8" - CCMT 21.5 inserts
- solid carbide boring bar - 3/16" - CDCD-505 circle brand inserts - min bore .200"











I have been using the small one (3/16") and I am simply amazed as to how awesome, stiff, and chatter-free the little bar is. But I was shocked when I got the 1/2" and 3/8" bars yesterday - I could not believe how freaking heavy they were!. I used my shipping scale and weight it each one (zero-ed for the ruler):

- standard 1/2" steel boring bar (4.6 oz): 





- solid carbide 1/2" boring bar (which is shorter than the steel 1/2" bar) (7.8 oz): 





- solid carbide 3/8" boring bar (4.9 oz): 





- solid carbide 3/16" boring bar (0.8 oz): 





All of the solid carbide bars are like new, perfect, and were about $40-50 each, which is much nicer than the $200-250/each they cost new


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## wquiles

Nothing super "pretty", but I now put labels and a home-made-custom knob for the speed control:


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## ICUDoc

Nice work will. Labels stop me doing something stupid so are a good plan. Funny how much time and effort we put in to doing work on our stuff so we can do work, isn't it???


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## wquiles

ICUDoc said:


> Nice work will. Labels stop me doing something stupid so are a good plan. Funny how much time and effort we put in to doing work on our stuff so we can do work, isn't it???



Yep - well said. Getting the Shumatech installed is next ... (but I am sure not the last mod/project!)


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## wquiles

and as I was saying on the post right above this one, the Shumatech is running !!!

Thanks to Modamag, I got a nicely build Shumatech 350L. I still need to route the wires and mount the display (still looking at a couple of options), but it is running already. I used my mini mill to create the adapters, and I am using 3 VERY strong super magnets to hold each sensor in place.

Display Unit:





Here is the X-scale:































And here is the Y-scale:
















I will post additional pics once I get the display mounted 

Will

PS
I wanted to take a short deviation from the main subject to point out how well the Drill Doctor works!!!


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## dat2zip

I have a Shumatech DRO on my minilathe. :thumbsup:

Hope you don't mind me sharing the following information. 

My first pass at mounting the scales left something to desire.

I found some good references and drawings over at Zeitlowdesign. 

I used the drawings over there as a starting point to redo the scales on my minilathe. 

These are the scales before mounting them on the lathe.





Mounted.











I really like the way they mounted the scales and kudos to them for their great documentation. Thought I'd share it since it may not be well known.

Wayne


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## wquiles

Very cool Wayne - thanks much for sharing those pics 

I like how the "X" scale is mounted away from the chuck 

Will


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## Mirage_Man

wquiles said:


> I like how the "X" scale is mounted away from the chuck
> 
> Will




I was going to say something about that. Is there any particular reason you put yours on the left side? As it is it will interfere with turning the compound for threading not to mention chips and such.


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## wquiles

Mirage_Man said:


> I was going to say something about that. Is there any particular reason you put yours on the left side? As it is it will interfere with turning the compound for threading not to mention chips and such.



Like everything in life, a compromise 

Mostly a clearance problem. I tried on the other side and it had interference with the bolt/allen key that I use to lock the carriage (you can see it on the 2nd photo bellow), and would also take an extra inch or two of additional clearance when using the chuck/drill. I can try again - maybe I can find another way to mount it ...












I do notice and agree that the "X" scale needs to be protected, so I still have to come up with something to protect it. For threading, just one screw removes each scale (due to using magnets), so I think I can live with removing the x-scale for threading (at least for now - I will "know" more as I use the machine with the DRO installed!).


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## ICUDoc

wquiles you can make up a M8 carriage lock bolt with smaller handle to replace the carriage lock bolt / Allen key combo. This might give you the clearance you need. Ref: http://www.mini-lathe.com/C6_lathe/C6/c6.htm . I made one up just for neatness' sake.


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## wquiles

David - I see the picture, but I am not sure how to make one. Any more details?

Will


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## ICUDoc

You can see the carriage safety lock handle and it is easy to copy that. The bolt is simply replaced with a M8 threaded piece (the vertical piece in the picture- the thread is engaged where the old allen bolt was). I don't think there is any more pictures on the site, but I made one up in just a few minutes- the easiest solution would be a M8 bolt that you put a sliding handle through. Nice simple helpful mod.


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## wquiles

Home made Boring Bar Holder:
https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/206385


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## wquiles

Today I got the Shumatech finished!

I had to directly solder the wires to the x-scale:

















And then I used hot glue to keep everything secure, and to hold the wire in position:






I then used more hot glue and a piece of plastic to act as a shield for oil and debris:





















I then bought a flexible lamp at IKEA and used it to mount the Shumatech control box - now I can move/aim it at will


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## wquiles

Man, I have been using the DRO for the last couple of projects, and it is simply unbelievable how much time it saves. I can't believe I used a lathe for a couple of years without a DRO - it is "that" significant of an improvement. The DRO was key to doing so many 1xD custom Mags in such a short time:
https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/210301

I also created the small pickup sensor for the spindle's RPM speed, so now I also have a visual indication as well. The Shumatech DRO is awesome!

So far, 3 mods has been "very" significant:
- variable DC 2HP motor - fantastic addition to the HF 8x14 lathe
- Bison precision 6-jaw chuck - talk about speeding up production (even if it costs more than the lathe itself!)
- Shumatech DRO - this one has been just plain awesome! Thanks again Jonathan (modamag) 

Will


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## Mirage_Man

wquiles said:


> Man, I have been using the DRO for the last couple of projects, and it is simply unbelievable how much time it saves. I can't believe I used a lathe for a couple of years without a DRO - it is "that" significant of an improvement. The DRO was key to doing so many 1xD custom Mags in such a short time:
> Will



I totally understand how you feel about the DRO. I've only used mine a tiny bit so far and I can tell it's going to be a real time saver.


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## precisionworks

> I finally was able to get the solid carbide bars with carbide inserts.



MSC just send out a Clearance Catalog, listing the Circle Machine Trigon boring bar set. 3/16, 1/4 & 5/16 carbide shanks, $187.75 for the set. Minimum bore on the 3/16 is 0.285.

Regular price of each bar is $248.22, which makes the set a real bargain. See page 840 in the MSC catalog, Trigon boring bars, G Series. Order # is KH86289162, but that number will not pull up anything on an MSC search, as MSC put the set together (Circle Machine only sells those individually).


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## wquiles

Thanks for the heads-up. I have not seen the MSC circular yet - hopefully it will arrive soon 

Will


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## precisionworks

My flyer came with an order delivered yesterday - not a color catalog like the one normally mailed, just black & white. I can fax the page to you if you'll PM your fax number, or MSC would probably mail one if you call 800-645-7270.


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## modamag

Will, great job. I've always enjoy your bandwidth heavy post


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## wquiles

modamag said:


> Will, great job. I've always enjoy your bandwidth heavy post



Thanks Jonathan 

Will


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## wquiles

precisionworks said:


> My flyer came with an order delivered yesterday - not a color catalog like the one normally mailed, just black & white. I can fax the page to you if you'll PM your fax number, or MSC would probably mail one if you call 800-645-7270.



I still have not received mine. I just PM'd you my fax number at work 

Will


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## KowShak

brickbat said:


> Nice, nice, nice.
> 
> Seems like just what I've been searching for my new old Logan.
> 
> From what I've gathered, the down angle you mention is considered a good thing for small lathes, like ours, but I thought it was referred to as having positive rake.
> 
> But, when I look up your MWLNR-10-3A toolholder on SECO's website, is is specified as having -5 degrees of cutting rake. What am I missing?
> 
> BTW, if you ever need extra QC tool holders, you might check here:
> 
> http://www.cdcotools.com/index.php
> 
> $9 a pop!


 
Reading this thread, I know I'm a bit behind, but there were some questions unanswered at the top of the thread that perhaps I can shed some light upon. 

A MWLNR tool holder uses WNMG inserts, the 'N' in both the tool holder and insert codes indicates that it is a negative rake tool holder, thats why the rake is specified as -5. Negative rake tools are recommended where they can be used, since the negative rake generates bigger cutting forces it is more likely to distort the part you're turning so you can't use negative rake on more fragile parts. One obvious advantage of negative rake tooling is that you can use both sides of the insert.

Positive rake tooling is recommended for small lathes because it needs less stiffness and less horsepower, your boring bars all appear to be positive rake. The point here is that "down angle" is not what a small lathe needs a small lathe really needs positve rake tooling.

There are such things as "positive-negative" inserts, a WNMP insert would be the one suited to your toolholder. The cutting edge of these inserts has a groove directly behind it which means that they have positve rake despite being held in a negative rake tool holder. They have the advanteds of positive rake tooling but you get to use twice as many corners as you would if they were a single sided positive rake insert.


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## wquiles

KowShak said:


> Reading this thread, I know I'm a bit behind, but there were some questions unanswered at the top of the thread that perhaps I can shed some light upon.
> 
> A MWLNR tool holder uses WNMG inserts, the 'N' in both the tool holder and insert codes indicates that it is a negative rake tool holder, thats why the rake is specified as -5. Negative rake tools are recommended where they can be used, since the negative rake generates bigger cutting forces it is more likely to distort the part you're turning so you can't use negative rake on more fragile parts. One obvious advantage of negative rake tooling is that you can use both sides of the insert.
> 
> Positive rake tooling is recommended for small lathes because it needs less stiffness and less horsepower, your boring bars all appear to be positive rake. The point here is that "down angle" is not what a small lathe needs a small lathe really needs positve rake tooling.
> 
> There are such things as "positive-negative" inserts, a WNMP insert would be the one suited to your toolholder. The cutting edge of these inserts has a groove directly behind it which means that they have positve rake despite being held in a negative rake tool holder. They have the advanteds of positive rake tooling but you get to use twice as many corners as you would if they were a single sided positive rake insert.



I can't disagree with your sound advice regarding using positive rake tooling. Even tough the down angle is not ideal, I routinely make 0.04" and 0.05" passes into 6061 Alu in my lathe using that tool. It seems to be working fairly well in my upgraded lathe (2HP motor), so maybe the bigger motor helps in my case.

Will


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## precisionworks

My lathe is larger swing than Will's, but has less hp - only 1/2hp total. Even so, I've been using CNMG or WNMG since day one. They aren't perfect for a smaller machine, and they do require more power than a positive insert ... but they are gawdawful cheap on eBay, which is something of a consideration. Also, after killing all the edges on the lathe, the "unused" cutting edges get used in the face milling cutter on the mill.

TPG's and TPU's are always good to have around, and I keep a few holders for jobs where a CNMG or WNMG is too big to fit. But the negative inserts work for 95% of the jobs I do, they cost next to nothing (about fifty cents each), they have four edges for lathe work + four fresh edges for milling work. And I don't get upset when a corner chips off


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## KowShak

Aluminium is an easy material to machine (because it is soft) so you can get away with using a negative rake tool on a small lathe. When you get onto machining more difficult materials (e.g. stainless steel or titanium), you may find that you either don't have the power or stiffness to make the cuts you want to and may have to resort to either positive inserts or lighter cuts. If you don't have enough stiffness you can get chatter and your surface finish will go off. You can put a bigger motor on your lathe if it doesn't have enough power but there is not a lot you can do if you don't have enough stiffness, only a larger lathe will provide that.


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## ToddK

Will,
I have the same Harbor Freight 8x14 lathe, so I've been reading your thread with great interest! I ended up getting an A2Z quick change toolpost a year and half ago, because that is what LittleMachineShop.com had. I've never been happy with it, as it looks a little undersized, and the instructions that come with it say to cut off part of the toolpost base on the slide (i ended up not doing this  )! 
You said the Lathemaster toolpost was designed for the 8x14, and it looks great- beefy, and the fact that it takes the 5/8 & 3/4" boring bars is fantastic. Can you describe how easy it was to mount to the lathe? Is it just a straight bolt on, or is it more involved? I'm thinking about upgrading to it. Thanks, -Todd.


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## wquiles

ToddK said:


> Will,
> I have the same Harbor Freight 8x14 lathe, so I've been reading your thread with great interest! I ended up getting an A2Z quick change toolpost a year and half ago, because that is what LittleMachineShop.com had. I've never been happy with it, as it looks a little undersized, and the instructions that come with it say to cut off part of the toolpost base on the slide (i ended up not doing this  )!
> You said the Lathemaster toolpost was designed for the 8x14, and it looks great- beefy, and the fact that it takes the 5/8 & 3/4" boring bars is fantastic. Can you describe how easy it was to mount to the lathe? Is it just a straight bolt on, or is it more involved? I'm thinking about upgrading to it. Thanks, -Todd.



Todd,

The AXA size, wedge-type holder is what I had, and what I recommend for this machine. The max. size of the tools in the AXA-size holders is 1/2, but I milled them in my mini-mill to take the larger tooling. My new 12x36 lathe uses the BXA holders, and the standard size for those is 5/8", but I will be again modifying the holders to allow at least 3/4" tools :devil:

If you buy the tool holder from Lathemaster like I did, it just bolts right in - no work/fitting to do. I highly recommend that you do the same 

Will


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## ToddK

Ah, thanks! Wow, now I have lathe and mill envy!


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## deebee

Hello all, my first post on this forum.
I have just ordered a HF 8x14 lathe and have spent probably far too much time studying Will Quiles brilliant descriptions of the modifications he has done to this lathe--well done sir!

There is one piece of information that I have not been able to determine from all the photos and posts and that is the model number of the Leeson electric motor that you used--I suspect it is 108021 but I would like to be sure. Can you post a model or catalog number for us?
Many thanks David B


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## wquiles

deebee said:


> Hello all, my first post on this forum.
> I have just ordered a HF 8x14 lathe and have spent probably far too much time studying Will Quiles brilliant descriptions of the modifications he has done to this lathe--well done sir!
> 
> There is one piece of information that I have not been able to determine from all the photos and posts and that is the model number of the Leeson electric motor that you used--I suspect it is 108021 but I would like to be sure. Can you post a model or catalog number for us?
> Many thanks David B



David,

Welcome to the Forums, and sorry for your wallet :devil:

Here is more information on the actual motor I used:












Also, I still have a brand new controller (I bought two!), that I will sell to you for what I paid ($50 with shipping, if I recall):
















Then, the only thing you would need is to buy these on Ebay (just a few bucks - I don't have any extras), which set the Horse Power for the motor. Get the 3/4 to 1HP ones, but be mindful that the value is different if you are running the motor at 110V, or at 220V (that is what I used):






If you are interested, send me email to:
wquiles [at] hotmail {dot} com

and I will give you my Paypal information and I can ship the controller to you as early as tomorrow Monday 

Will


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## deebee

Thanks Will, I will take it! 
DB


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## wquiles

OK, I will set it aside for you 

Good luck with the build. The 8x is a great small machine, and in my humble opinion much better than the 7x machines (which are great machines on their own!). 

When you get yours, clean it and adjusted, before you do anything, as mine was not perfectly setup. Also, you "really" should consider the quick change tool post that Lathemaster sells (AXA size) - it will make using the lathe a lot more user friendly, and the one from Lathemaster is already machined for the 8x machine 

If you run into problems/questions, just come back to this thread and ask away. Myself, or the other more experienced machinist in this sub-forum will help you as much as possible :wave:

Will
PS - When you get the new machine, start a new thread in this sub-forum and post pictures!!!


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## deebee

In case there are others who are considering buying one of these lathes, they are currently on special at Harbor Freight for $449 until Feb 23rd-but in the stores only-the on line staff seem to know nothing about this. That is a heck of a deal.
David B


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## deebee

I have another question for Will and others who use this lathe: Is it practical to fit a 6" chuck given that the jaws cannot be fully opened before hitting the lathe bed?
Would it be more wise to go with a 5" chuck?
David B


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## StrikerDown

deebee said:


> I have another question for Will and others who use this lathe: Is it practical to fit a 6" chuck given that the jaws cannot be fully opened before hitting the lathe bed?
> Would it be more wise to go with a 5" chuck?
> David B



Possibly unless you plan on taking the 6" to a 12 X 36 machine!


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## wquiles

deebee said:


> I have another question for Will and others who use this lathe: Is it practical to fit a 6" chuck given that the jaws cannot be fully opened before hitting the lathe bed?
> Would it be more wise to go with a 5" chuck?
> David B



Honestly, the 6" was too big and heavy for the 8x machine, and I would not do it again. The 5" chuck is definitely the way to go 

Will


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## deebee

Thanks Will, that concurs with what a couple of friends with machining experience thought when I said I was contemplating a 6" chuck.

I have now spent HOURS on ebay looking at DC motors! I have concluded that what I want is either a Leeson or the Baldor equivalent. I am comfortable with mechanical things but get a bit out of my depth when I get into electrics/electronics. I can buy a 3/4 hp DC motor that will run on 180v but is 3 phase--is that gonna work with the control set up?
David B


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## wquiles

deebee said:


> Thanks Will, that concurs with what a couple of friends with machining experience thought when I said I was contemplating a 6" chuck.
> 
> I have now spent HOURS on ebay looking at DC motors! I have concluded that what I want is either a Leeson or the Baldor equivalent. I am comfortable with mechanical things but get a bit out of my depth when I get into electrics/electronics. I can buy a 3/4 hp DC motor that will run on 180v but is 3 phase--is that gonna work with the control set up?
> David B



No, it will not work. You need either a "plain" 90V DC Motor, or a "plain" 180V DC Motor. It can take time. I think I waited 1-2 months before I was able to buy mine, brand new for about $50-65 or so 

Will


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## Alan B

The other way to go is AC 3 phase with a VFD. Costs a few $ more but often fits better, since you may be able to get a drop-in same frame motor. When I did my DC conversion I had to make adapters and solve problems, AC would have been easier.

Either way, variable speed is AWESOME.


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## wquiles

Alan B said:


> Either way, variable speed is AWESOME.


+1 - I am right now missing variable speed on my 12x36 

Will


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## Alan B

wquiles said:


> +1 - I am right now missing variable speed on my 12x36
> 
> Will



A drop-in 3 phase motor and VFD should not be hard for the new lathe. Maybe we can get a good price on a matched pair... I'm going to need one sometime.


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## wquiles

Alan B said:


> A drop-in 3 phase motor and VFD should not be hard for the new lathe. Maybe we can get a good price on a matched pair... I'm going to need one sometime.



Yup, I am looking forward to doing the conversion some time this year. I am in no hurry, but I have been already looking for the right motor at the the right price on Ebay .....

Will


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## deebee

Can I get a "No Compete" contract on that motor?


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## StrikerDown

wquiles said:


> Yup, I am looking forward to doing the conversion some time this year. I am in no hurry, but I have been already looking for the right motor at the the right price on Ebay .....
> 
> Will


 
Will,

Since you have brought up the PM lathe (excuse for a hijack) What do you think of the PM13X40? Matt is tempting me with a real good price on one with DRO that he has in stock. The PM 12X36 is at least 8 wks out. (getting impatient)


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## choffman

Hey folks,

This is my first post and definitely not my last. I have been enjoying reading about the mods to the HF 8x14. Very nice work. I'll be ordering one tomorrow. I just wanted to pop in and introduce myself, because I'm sure I'll be back with lots of noob questions. Mostly, I wanted to share with anyone reading this that is interested in a HF 8x14 that not only is the 8x14 on sale, the 20% off coupon is good starting tomorrow morning (Friday) through Monday night.

http://www.harborfreightusa.com/usa...ue&r=4180_556193&cust=1234567890&keycode=0000

That puts the price of this lathe down to $360 bucks with no shipping picked up in the store. I can't hardly stand it I'M SO 


Of course, now comes the agonizing wait that tortures my "instant gratification" American soul. I can't tell you how many years I've wanted to get a lathe and I've finally decided on this one for my first. Alas, I must now wait a little longer for the dreaded "shipping time".


Craig



deebee said:


> In case there are others who are considering buying one of these lathes, they are currently on special at Harbor Freight for $449 until Feb 23rd-but in the stores only-the on line staff seem to know nothing about this. That is a heck of a deal.
> David B


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## wquiles

choffman said:


> Hey folks,
> 
> This is my first post and definitely not my last. I have been enjoying reading about the mods to the HF 8x14. Very nice work. I'll be ordering one tomorrow. I just wanted to pop in and introduce myself, because I'm sure I'll be back with lots of noob questions. Mostly, I wanted to share with anyone reading this that is interested in a HF 8x14 that not only is the 8x14 on sale, the 20% off coupon is good starting tomorrow morning (Friday) through Monday night.
> 
> http://www.harborfreightusa.com/usa...ue&r=4180_556193&cust=1234567890&keycode=0000
> 
> That puts the price of this lathe down to $360 bucks with no shipping picked up in the store. I can't hardly stand it I'M SO
> 
> 
> Of course, now comes the agonizing wait that tortures my "instant gratification" American soul. I can't tell you how many years I've wanted to get a lathe and I've finally decided on this one for my first. Alas, I must now wait a little longer for the dreaded "shipping time".
> 
> 
> Craig



Welcome to the Forums - sorry about your wallet :devil:

For its size, the 8x14 is a very nice lathe - I am sure you will enjoy using it!. Some free advice:
- get the Quick Change Tool post from Lathemaster - it is already modified for their 8x14 lathe, which is the SAME machine you have. A true bolt-on afair
- get a 5" chuck for the lathe - don't go to a 6", I did and it was too big!
- the variable speed conversion was awesome, but you don't need it to get started. Shop around for the controller and motor and be patient until the "right" price comes along on Ebay.
- A DRO will make your life with the lathe MUCH better. Hard to come by lately, but the Shumatech DR)350 was very nice. Other alternatives (some from the Little Machine Shop) are also available.

-> :Last piece of advice: Ask questions - lots of them! This subforums has VERY experienced machinist ready and willing to share their knowledge 

Will


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## precisionworks

> PM13X40? Matt is tempting me with a real good price on one with DRO


In machine tools, bigger is usually better ... the 13x40 footprint is not much larger than the 12x36, but it weighs almost 300# more - which can mean less vibration & better finishes. 

The extra inch of swing is certainly OK, but there are times that the additional 4" of bed length will be a life saver, especially if the part is too large to pass through the headstock.

The DRO will pay for itself in reduced scrap, if nothing else.



> AC 3 phase with a VFD


That's the ticket, if a "standard" AC motor can be adapted to the lathe drive system. Three of my machines are VFD controlled, and the lathe is just about ready for the conversion. Then the mill. Then the drill. Once you do the first one, it's a downhill spiral


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## deebee

choffman said:


> Hey folks,
> 
> This is my first post and definitely not my last. I have been enjoying reading about the mods to the HF 8x14. Very nice work. I'll be ordering one tomorrow. I just wanted to pop in and introduce myself, because I'm sure I'll be back with lots of noob questions. Mostly, I wanted to share with anyone reading this that is interested in a HF 8x14 that not only is the 8x14 on sale, the 20% off coupon is good starting tomorrow morning (Friday) through Monday night.
> 
> http://www.harborfreightusa.com/usa...ue&r=4180_556193&cust=1234567890&keycode=0000
> 
> That puts the price of this lathe down to $360 bucks with no shipping picked up in the store. I can't hardly stand it I'M SO
> 
> 
> Of course, now comes the agonizing wait that tortures my "instant gratification" American soul. I can't tell you how many years I've wanted to get a lathe and I've finally decided on this one for my first. Alas, I must now wait a little longer for the dreaded "shipping time".
> 
> 
> Craig




HOLY SH**

Thank you!!!
I had intended picking up my lather yesterday but decided on Sunday-Am I glad!!


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## choffman

deebee said:


> HOLY SH**
> 
> Thank you!!!
> I had intended picking up my lather yesterday but decided on Sunday-Am I glad!!




You are welcome!! I'm glad I could help. I just wanted to verify for anyone in doubt about using this coupon, IT IS VALID FOR IN STORE SPECIAL ORDERS. I noticed another post labeled "looking for a lathe". I'm gonna post a link to this topic over there and give some more details about ordering the lathe here. I almost wasn't able to get the deal until I asked to speak to a manager. 

Long story short. I walked in and asked to special order the lathe that was on sale in the recent flier. Then I pulled out the Harbor Freight 20% Off any one item coupon, that I printed off of the internet with my home printer, and said to the extra grumpy cash register girl that I'd like to apply the coupon to it. She said, after reading the fine print that "the coupon says for in-stock items only" and "I can't apply this to a special order item because those are items we never stock".

Granted, that's a fine argument, but I knew better. Not because I had ever done it before, mind you, but because I had a long lengthy conversation with one of the managers in that very store not but a few days prior. Initially, I was trying to get the Harbor freight 93885 mill/drill also known as the Sieg X3 or the grizzly G0463, using the 20% off coupon that was valid last weekend.

Here's the skinny on all this. "In-stock" means in-stock in the retail store OR in-stock at the local warehouse that supplies that store. Many of the items that are special order only, MAY be sitting on the shelf of the local warehouse. If they are, they qualify for the 20% off in-stock items only coupon. If you run into any flak, just ask to speak to the manager and have a polite discussion with him/her including the knowledge you have gained here. 

Thursday at lunchtime, I will be driving home with a brand new 8x12/14 lathe that I paid $383.45 after taxes for and a 7x12 bandsaw (hf 97009) that I got for 616 Bucks!!! :rock::rock::rock: DUUUUUUUUDE!!!!! I'm so frickin excited!!!!!

It's definitely not BS. I have the "pick-up" tickets in my hand right now.

Unfortunately, the mill will have to wait. It was not "in-stock" last weekend or this weekend. I'm gonna check back late Monday night just before the store closes and the coupon expires, in hopes that the local warehouse will have one on the shelf.

Good luck to all and may the swarf be with you.

Craig


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## choffman

For those that are undecided about a little benchtop lathe, let me suggest that you hop over to youtube and check this out:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HO2rmNkZ4M4

If that link doesn't work search for duality lathe. The concept is that you can put the little lathe on a mill, preferably CNC but not totally necessary, and use them both in combination. REALLY cool idea.

I intend to get a little lathe, learn how to turn and eventually buy a bigger one that I don't destroy teaching myself how to do it. I don't have a mill yet, but when I do and after I learn how to use it old school, I'm going to CNC it. Or maybe not. I like working with my hands, I might just get off on the whole manual thing. Time will tell.

Craig


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## wquiles

precisionworks said:


> In machine tools, bigger is usually better ... the 13x40 footprint is not much larger than the 12x36, but it weighs almost 300# more - which can mean less vibration & better finishes.
> 
> The extra inch of swing is certainly OK, but there are times that the additional 4" of bed length will be a life saver, especially if the part is too large to pass through the headstock.
> 
> The DRO will pay for itself in reduced scrap, if nothing else.



I can't and won't contradict one of my mentors, but as a data point, the difference in price between the 13x40 and 12x36 was about the price for the DRO, so I went with the 12x36 in order to get the DRO installed at the same time 

Will


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## choffman

I posted some more details in the other thread about my hf lathe purchase. It seems like a better place to do so. I'm not trying/wanting to hijack here. This is a great thread about some killer mods. Definitely appreciate you taking the time to document your mods so well.

Thanks

Craig

Other one:

https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/223136


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