# What makes a light "budget"?



## WilsonCQB1911 (May 31, 2013)

Is it just price or is any light from some brands considered budget? I've seen some refer to Nitecore as budget, but I have an EA8 that runs around $100 street price. That's not very budget to me. If it is all about price, what is the cutoff for being budget?


----------



## mccririck (May 31, 2013)

Price/size


----------



## Rexlion (May 31, 2013)

Mostly it's the combination of price and manufacturer's reputation. Some brands have consistently poor anodization, emitter placement, reliability, and/or other issues; they often engage in very overstated (and unsubstantiated) lumens figures; their prices usually are quite a bit lower than the well-thought-of brands, and they have to be or they probably wouldn't entice many (or any) buyers. There can be exceptions sometimes.


----------



## Peetz (Jun 1, 2013)

Budget is different for each person.

It is a nebulous price point at which the person feels that they can part with that money without difficulty, to receive something that has some value to them.

In relation to flashlights - a budget light is usually one that has the quality and attributes of a more expensive light.

It's a great feeling to have something that one feels is worth more than the price one paid...


----------



## Mike_TX (Jun 6, 2013)

Peetz said:


> Budget is different for each person.
> 
> It is a nebulous price point at which the person feels that they can part with that money without difficulty, to receive something that has some value to them.
> 
> ...



That's a pretty good summary. Budget means different things to different people, since people have differing opinions on what their budget can handle.

But generally speaking it refers to flashlights selling well below the price point of high-end lights. And as often as not, budget lights are manufactured in China. For instance, a $225 Surefire isn't a budget light, but a $12 Ultrafire "clone" is. For some people, though, a $125 light is a budget light ... not for me, but maybe for some. 

In other words, there isn't one single definition.


----------



## mccririck (Jun 6, 2013)

I think for the majority of people $125 would not be a budget light. It might be a mid-range light but budget? Think again.


----------



## Rosoku Chikara (Jun 6, 2013)

A Budget Light: "I know it when I see it." - Justice Stewart, 1964

Thought I might try to shed some light (pun intended) on the definition problem. I think "restaurants" are a good analogy when attempting to define "budget."

Anyone (if they are willing the pay the price) can go out to the "very best restaurant in town" and enjoy an excellent meal. Unless you are extremely unlucky, or have been poorly informed, then you can fully expect to enjoy a truly exceptional meal with great service and ambiance. (So long as you are willing to spend the money.)

And, if you are just visiting in a town and desire "a truly exceptional meal," then you probably end up having to spend the necessary money in order to guarantee quality. But, if you are a local, and have had the time to spend "researching" new and sometimes old but "unknown" restaurants, then you can usually find a way to enjoy the same, or similar (or perhaps even better) meal, at a greatly reduced price.

(This kind of "research" is more of an art, than a science. I think it should also be considered "fun" in the sense that you accept the bad with the good, in the spirit of entertainment. It is sort of like going fishing. You never know what you might catch. So, in that sense, I think of "Budget Lighting" as a hobby that involves the process of successfully seeking out "Budget Lights.")

Anyway, first of all, you need to know what "a truly exceptional meal" is supposed to taste like. If you don't know the truly "good stuff" to begin with, then it is hard to know it (even when you see it) at a budget price.

Take sushi as an example. In Japan, the highest quality raw fish can be extremely expensive. Despite the recession, you can still easily spend $500.00 per person in Ginza, if you choose to dine at such a place. But, for that kind of money you have every right to be very very unhappy if there is even the slightest thing disappointing about your dining experience.

On the other hand, there are many excellent "budget" sushi shops in Japan. Look for very busy large chain restaurants that serve only sushi. They are able to purchase their raw fish in huge (discount) quantities because they operate a large chain. And, if they are truly busy, their raw fish stays really fresh because they sell it so fast, it doesn't have a chance to get old. At such a "budget" shop you can get a great sushi meal for way less than a 10th of the price of a Ginza shop (probably more like a 50th of the price!)

But, stay away from your local neighborhood sushi shop and other "middle-of-the-road" sushi shops in Japan. They may be lower priced, but they are not "budget." They often have too few customers, and are often already in financial trouble, so they must preserve their expensive raw fish (that they have "invested" in), as best they can... and hope to eventually sell it before it actually spoils. Therefore, despite the "middle-of-the-road" price, quality is frequently very poor. (The only exception is, if you are truly "friends" with the sushi chef, he will tell you himself to avoid stuff that is getting a bit too old.)

And, as I said before. It is hard to judge ("know") the real quality of budget sushi, unless you have eaten (and "understood") the really expensive sushi.

Therefore, I believe "The Art of Budget Lighting" is a kind of hobby where you perform enough research and acquire enough experience and/or knowledge on the subject, until you can become a proper judge of a lower priced light's true worth. 

Otherwise, you are probably better off simply spending top dollar for a brand name that guarantees good quality based on their name.

When considering "budget" lights, an obvious consideration is the fact that, to be useful, a flashlight must perform with a certain degree of reliability. If you cannot generally count on it to "light-up" when you need it, no flashlight should ever be considered "budget"; it is simply "junk." 

(Just as sushi that might make you ill is not a meal, at any price. Unless, of course, you are truly starving to death...)

Sorry this got a bit long, but that's my "two cents worth."


----------



## phosphor (Jun 10, 2013)

I'd say budget is a light that has a more narrow spread between the dirt, cheap cost to manufacture a Chinese light and the retail price.


----------



## yoyoman (Jun 10, 2013)

I'll stay with the Sushi Restaurant analogy. There are several sushi restaurants in Tskiji, the large fish market in Tokyo. One is the best and you can see the long line of people waiting. We go there whenever we are in Tokyo because the service is excellent, the staff are friendly - they really remember us year to year - and, of course, the sushi is excellent. Last April we got to Tskiji late and they told us the wait was at least 3 hours. We just didn't have the time to wait and decided to go to another sushi restaurant in the market. Big mistake. The service was fair, the staff were rude when we asked for neggi-toro te makki and, although the fish was fresh, it wasn't special. The bill or expense was the same, but the experience just didn't compare.

It can be the same with budget lights. They may have the same emitter, layout and UI, but they won't be the same as a custom or more expensive light. The threads may not be well machined and may come without lube (or over-lubed). The UI may be geared to the mass market and not flashaholics. Heat sinking can be minimal - so if they overdrive the emitter, then the heat builds up.

I'm lucky enough to have a very few custom lights. What makes them special is not just the high build quality, beautiful tints and perfect beams. What makes them special is the light the represents the builder's concept of what a perfect light is. Some have really long run times. So they are not super small or have over-driven emitters. Some have a quirky UI - you have to switch modes really quickly and this to prevent swithing modes unless you really want to. And one has a unique UI - twist to turn off, loosen to get to low and keep going to get to high. I think of builder whenever I use these lights. When I use my budget lights, I don't even think about the company that made them. They work, do their job but they are soulless.


----------



## Chicago X (Jun 13, 2013)

mccririck said:


> I think for the majority of people $125 would not be a budget light. It might be a mid-range light but budget? Think again.



If the $125 light has the features/output of a $395 light, it could easily qualify for the 'budget' moniker.


----------



## AVService (Jun 13, 2013)

mccririck said:


> Price/size



This has almost nothing to do with it in my mind?


----------



## mccririck (Jun 13, 2013)

Chicago X said:


> If the $125 light has the features/output of a $395 light, it could easily qualify for the 'budget' moniker.



Well that depends.


----------



## Rosoku Chikara (Jun 14, 2013)

Chicago X said:


> If the $125 light has the features/output of a $395 light, it could easily qualify for the 'budget' moniker.



I still support my concept of "Knowing a Budget Light when I see one." (Meaning the phrase "Budget Light" is quite difficult to define, yet it can be quite clear once you have successfully found one. That is, *if* you know enough about the subject to tell the difference.)

But, I guess there is also a legitimate need to consider what your personal "budget" for flashlights is, when discussing this subject.

I think this takes us on into a different meaning of the word "Budget." I guess a $500,000 oil well could legitimately qualify as a "Budget Oil Well" so long as it satisfied certain factors/features in comparison with a $1,000,000 "Premium Oil Well."

But, I still couldn't afford to buy it. (Since it would exceed my "budget.")

So, it seems to me that whether or not you can afford to purchase any particular flashlight will always depend on your personal budget. But, that is a separate issue from whether or not any particular flashlight might be considered a "Budget Light" or not.


----------



## yoyoman (Jun 15, 2013)

Chicago X said:


> If the $125 light has the features/output of a $395 light, it could easily qualify for the 'budget' moniker.


If they copy or clone features and sell it for a low price, it will be a budget light. Not beause of the price (it won't be a vulue light either). You will know it is a budget light when you see and use it. The fit and finish won't be special. The beam will not be pure. The emitters will be from lower quality bins. If you dig deeper, the wires will be thinner and lower quality. Heatsinking won't be great. The drivers may mimic high quality, but won't achieve the same results. The spec sheets may be the same, but when you see and use the light, you'll know it is a budget light.


----------



## mccririck (Jun 15, 2013)

yoyoman said:


> If they copy or clone features and sell it for a low price, it will be a budget light. Not beause of the price (it won't be a vulue light either). You will know it is a budget light when you see and use it. The fit and finish won't be special. The beam will not be pure. The emitters will be from lower quality bins. If you dig deeper, the wires will be thinner and lower quality. Heatsinking won't be great. The drivers may mimic high quality, but won't achieve the same results. The spec sheets may be the same, but when you see and use the light, you'll know it is a budget light.



Bit none of those things mean it wont work well and last many years. [email protected] owned a few Sipik sk68s and they are very tough lights.


----------



## Hooked on Fenix (Jun 15, 2013)

In my opinion, budget means a high perceived value to low cost ratio.


----------



## yoyoman (Jun 15, 2013)

Nomenclature is hard. I love value lights. I have a L3 Illumination L10 Nichia 219. Great value. I have a DQG AAA (ss, neutral XPG2). Great value. I have another light that copies or clones features from a great, high priced light. It doesn't
come close. Not a value light - it is a budget light. You may not agree with my terms and that's ok.


----------



## Rosoku Chikara (Jun 16, 2013)

mccririck said:


> [email protected] owned a few Sipik sk68s and they are very tough lights.



Putting nomenclature aside, it is hard to "beat" a Sipik sk68k, or "Sipik Clone," for the price. You can get a very robust little light for only a few dollars. A "great deal," in my opinion.


----------



## yoyoman (Jun 16, 2013)

^ Or you could say it is a great value.


----------



## Rosoku Chikara (Jun 18, 2013)

yoyoman said:


> ^ Or you could say it is a great value.



OK, yoyoman. You may be on to something here. 

Perhaps we should consider redefining (or defining for the first time) the following phrases to mean something like this:

1) *Cheap Flashlight* - _Unreliable, so it is essentially junk, however low the price._

2) *Budget Flashlight* - _Reliable enough to be useful, so it can easily "save you" in times of real need; but, still at a very low cost.
_
("Times of real need" meaning a very dark situation where you would be happy to have even a candle and a pack of matches.) 

However, according to this definition, a Budget Flashlight should truly be within almost everyone's "budget." Meaning that it must be priced at such a low price that almost anyone can easily afford one, if they ever wanted or needed one. 

(Once again, here is where we are likely to always have trouble agreeing on just what that price point should be. But, for the sake of discussion, I will choose "Less than $20" as a guideline.)

3) *Value Flashlight* - _An excellent "deal" (cost/performance ratio) at any price._ 

Given this definition, a solid gold flashlight priced at $5,000 (or whatever fantastic number you prefer) could logically be considered a "Value Flashlight," so long as it compared favorably (in cost/performance) with other solid gold flashlights.

I think I could "live with" the above definitions, but to be honest, I personally feel the need to make a clearer distinction between "science" (or in this case, "engineering") and "art." 

If you view flashlights strictly as a functional tool, then the issues that determine their cost/performance ratio should always be "scientific" and logical. If, however, you view flashlights as a form of art (which they surely can be), then the cost/performance ratio becomes highly biased by personal preference.

Some people love Picasso, and are willing to pay millions. Others wouldn't have a Picasso painting in their home at any price. 

No one can say who is correct; it is strictly a matter of personal preference. And, in cases like this, everyone is fully entitled to their own personal opinion. Unfortunately, however, many peoples' opinions are too easily swayed by high asking prices. 

In other words, people say to themselves, "If it costs millions, it *must* be a great painting!" But this is not necessarily true. I read just last month about someone paying over $3,000 for a painting, painted by Michael Jackson's former pet chimpanzee. 

To some people, such a painting might be worth that price, simply as a novelty (or conversation piece), but I doubt it was a very good painting. However, as I have already said, everyone is certainly entitled to their own opinion when it comes to "art."


----------



## yoyoman (Jun 18, 2013)

I like including the cheap category. And I like your definition of budget - low cost, but reliable.

The Tank007 E09 is a budget light. It is reliable and has some nice features (can run on Li-ions, memory mode, etc.). The PWM, beam profile, etc. make it a budget light and not a value light, IMHO.

Stick to sushi - the painting analogy doesn't quite work for me.


----------



## harro (Jun 19, 2013)

The Wife !!!


----------



## yoyoman (Jun 19, 2013)

Yes!! The wife gives me a dirty look everytime the post man rings the door bell to deliver a package. It got so bad that I started having lights delivered to my office. Now the guys in the mail room give me dirty looks.


----------



## harro (Jun 19, 2013)

yoyoman said:


> Yes!! The wife gives me a dirty look everytime the post man rings the door bell to deliver a package. It got so bad that I started having lights delivered to my office. Now the guys in the mail room give me dirty looks.




Hahahaha.....exactly.


----------



## sticktodrum (Jun 19, 2013)

yoyoman said:


> Yes!! The wife gives me a dirty look everytime the post man rings the door bell to deliver a package. It got so bad that I started having lights delivered to my office. Now the guys in the mail room give me dirty looks.



Yep... Sounds about right. At this point, budget comes up when my wife smacks me and says my habit doesn't fit into our budget.

Sent from my Nexus 10 using Tapatalk HD


----------



## ericjohn (Jun 26, 2013)

I would say:

The price is first and foremost.

Then; I would say the required maintenance (replacement bulbs and high-powered batteries can cost up to and maybe more than the flashlight itself.

I think good examples of "initially cheap" but NOT budget flashlights would be:
Brinkmann Maxfire (two 123A battery and Xenon bulb version)
All Xenon Pelican Mity Lites
Any 6 Volt Incandescent Lantern (good batteries can be upwards of $20 apiece. (I saw a Duracell 908 battery for $16.xx before tax at Rite Aid today.)
Mini Maglite incandescent models are heading it that direction since the replacement bi-pin bulbs are getting harder to find (and their price is going up.)
Incandescent Rechargeable flashlights have batteries that periodically need to be rebuilt and ANY of their replacement bulbs that are rare and expensive.
Any incandescent explosion proof flashlight that requires a PR 6 or PR 7 bulb. 
NOTE: Any PR bulb that is not PR2, PR3, PR4, PR13 or PR18 (or its noble gas equivalent.) Even those aforementioned PR bulbs are getting expensive and most online retailers require you to buy in bulk. Very few local retailers have them in stock anymore.


That is all I can think of.


----------



## wjv (Jun 27, 2013)

Value.

Problem with just talking dollar points is that a budget light for Joe average might be $5; a budget light for a flashlight collector might be $25; a budget light for Bill Gates might be $125;

Which is why I stick with Value. What you are getting for your $$$.


----------

