# MY new lathe. A 9x20 HF maroon monster.



## gadget_lover (Sep 13, 2011)

I've had two small lathes, a 7x10 HF and a 7x12 Cummings. Both are your basic Seig Chinese imports. While small, they fit the area I have available for them.

I've enjoyed both, and both have been able to do whatever project I wanted. It helps to choose projects that are suitable to the tools. 

My only point of dis-satisfaction has been the physical size of the thing. The lack of unused space becomes a hassle when you want to mount a dial indicator on the ways, or a DRO on the cross-slide. The size of the gib adjusting screws require reading glasses in order to use them.

My second point of frustration has been the change gears for threading. They are not THAT difficult to use, but they are a pain in the rear when you want to do a quick job. I've looked at plans for a QC gearbox but the gearbox was almost 1/3 the length of the lathe and, frankly, quite ugly.

So with these points nagging at the back of my mind I occasionally cruise Craigslist and eBay looking for a nice Southbend or Atlas that I can afford. It seems that they are all either 1) rusted pieces of junk or 2) over $1500 dollars or 3) sold within seconds of being posted.

You can imagine I was a bit surprised when I came across a HF 9x20 for only $600 (OBO!). That included the two pedestal stand. Glancing at the picture reminded me that it had a QC gearbox, and it was almost the size of a real lathe. I thought about it for a day.

The picture was poor. You could not read the full model number. The description listed neither the model nor the size. All it said by way of description: "Its a gear head metal lathe its in good condition and works great give me a call if you want to see it"

By the third day I was getting curious. I looked up the model, downloaded the manual and thought about it for a while. It certainly appeared to have the features I wanted. It would take 1/2 inch tooling. There was room to put gadgets on the poor thing. Hmmm

I called him yesterday. He knew NOTHING about it. He got it from a friend who had inherited it. Yeah. Right. He was able to confirm that the change gears were there, but I had to describe them to him. Yeah, he'd hold it for me till I could pick it up if I were really interested.

Today was the fifth day. Still for sale. Bad sign, but I drove down to lay hands on it anyway. It was in his storage unit and he's put it in the back of his pickup to bring it to his house to show it. It does run, and it runs smoothly. It's missing the steady-rests and it has some cosmetic sheet metal dings. The stand is... OK, but nothing exciting. There was a chuck sticking out of the tailstock. Yes, the chuck comes with it.

A 10 minute inspection shows nothing wrong with it. Everything moves as it should. It's actually nice and tight. Then he says he can follow me home (60 miles). It seems he does not want to unload it at the storage unit again.

So here I am with a Maroon Monster in the garage. It's big enough that I can put a proper DRO on it. I have room for carriage stops without having to reach between things. I can put a 6 jaw chuck on it, or even a set-tru if I want. Then there's the VFD or treadmill motor... Hmmmm.

The monster: 






The bonus:
I did not realize that it was the real thing till I got home.





Daniel


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## darkzero (Sep 13, 2011)

Awesome score Daniel, congrats! Especially on the Albrecht, you got one heck of a deal. Looks like she'll clean up real nice!

I hated changing gears on my HF8x14 everytime I had to do it!


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## ICUDoc (Sep 13, 2011)

Doncha LOVE it when that happens! Congrats!
Too often you don't realise you got gypped until you get home.....


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## precisionworks (Sep 13, 2011)

Sweet deal ... the Albrecht by itself is $250 

Looks to be really clean (no visible rust) unlike so many machines in the midwest. Let the spending begin :devil:


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## wquiles (Sep 13, 2011)

GREAT find Daniel


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## gadget_lover (Sep 13, 2011)

precisionworks said:


> Sweet deal ... the Albrecht by itself is $250
> 
> Looks to be really clean (no visible rust) unlike so many machines in the midwest. Let the spending begin :devil:



Yeah, I figure the lathe cost is down to somewhere around $450 after subtracting the Albrecht (around $150 used on eBay). I can't find any signs of wear on the lathe so far. I suspect that the previous owner was even more of a newbie than I was when I bought my first one. 

The mt2 arbor and the tailstock bore are nicely greased. The arbor rotates really nice in the tailstock! LOL That may have been done for storage purposes, but I suspect he did not know better. The handle on the cross-slide was also adjusted too tight, and would not turn at all. I backed the retaining nut off a few degrees and it works just fine. I'm guessing that there are only a few 10s of hours use on the Maroon Monster.

Thanks for all the nice comments guys. Now the bad news.

There is an MSC showroom 2 blocks from my office. They stock all sorts of things. Things where you pay $100 and walk out with a little plastic bag and a smile. Oh MY!

Daniel


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## StrikerDown (Sep 13, 2011)

Sweet deal, Same chuck I picked up off eBay, Screemin deal for $99.

Congratulations!!! Now it's time for a bigger garage.


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## gadget_lover (Sep 13, 2011)

$99? That is a great deal. I'm seeing them going for up to 150 used on ebay.



StrikerDown said:


> Congratulations!!! Now it's time for a bigger garage.


 

You have no idea. I have to move the lathe to get to the mailbox. Or to use the mill. Or to..... Oh! I see Garage Sale in craigslist! Maybe I can buy a second garage!



Dan


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## StrikerDown (Sep 14, 2011)

gadget_lover said:


> $99? That is a great deal. I'm seeing them going for up to 150 used on ebay.
> Dan


 One of the few times I have been lucky on the bay. I've been searching for one for the mill, 0-1/4" or 0-3/8"... they go real high or when I'm broke they go for less!



gadget_lover said:


> ..... Oh! I see Garage Sale in craigslist! Maybe I can buy a second garage!
> 
> Dan


That'll work :thumbsup:

I see new houses in the area with 7 car garages, 3 attached and 4 detached... Want one so bad! The 4 car with HVAC and all my tools would be so sweet. Unfortunately my house of 12 years is now worth less than what I paid for it almost 13 years ago! Gotta love the hope and change! :thumbsdow


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## precisionworks (Sep 14, 2011)

Been a while since that photo was taken but some things don't change. 2100 square feet, 9' ceilings, sheet rock walls, central air & heat, full bath, partial kitchen. My son calls it the Ultimate Man Cave :nana:


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## gadget_lover (Sep 15, 2011)

Wow! That's a shop! 2100 sq feet is bigger than my house. The land around here is so expensive and crowded that in order to expand I'd have to buy the neighbor's house and convert it to a shop. Buying a half a million dollar house to make a shop to fill with second hand tools is not a win.

OTOH, I already did some test cuts on Mr Maroon. Yes, my wife dubbed it Mr Maroon. I think I can see why the guy sold it. As mounted, the slightly off height, rather dull, brazed carbide, cutters leave a terrible finish. I'll soon fix that! 

And the tool purchases have started. I have an AXA wedge toolpost coming from ebay. It's a knockoff, but as long as it's solid and repeatable I'll be happy. I don't need the super smooth Dorian that Will has. Really. I don't. Sigh.

And the cleanup has started too. Some of the sheet metal was bent, so I've straightened it out and a mounting tab had busted at the spot welds. Whoopie! I got to play with my mig welder. Th backsplash is now one piece again and straightened out, so paint is coming soon.


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## sortafast (Sep 15, 2011)

now you just need to get a DRO on it and like another $1000 in tools :thumbsup:


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## precisionworks (Sep 15, 2011)

sortafast said:


> now you just need to get a DRO on it and like another $1000 in tools :thumbsup:


+ 1 

The DRO is hard to live with out after you have used one. And $10,000 will just about cover your tooling cost


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## gadget_lover (Sep 15, 2011)

sortafast said:


> now you just need to get a DRO on it and like another $1000 in tools :thumbsup:


 
Believe it or not, that is the biggest reason for the upgrade. 

My 7x12 has the leadscrew mounted DROs, accurate to .0001, but they have two drawbacks:
1) They actually sense the movement of the handwheel as opposed to the movement of the compound or topslide. This means backlash is still an issue with positioning.
2) The reader modules are just big enough that I can not swing the compound across more than 40 degrees from parallel to the lathe axis.

All the 'proper' DRO scales are just too big to fit on the cross-slide, much less mounting one on the compound.

The larger physical size means I should be able to put at least a capacitive tape reader on it.

Dan


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## StrikerDown (Sep 15, 2011)

gadget_lover said:


> ... Yes, my wife dubbed it Mr Maroon.


 
At least she's not talking about Mr. Moron for getting another tool without room for it! 



Nice size shop Barry, I would be happy with one big enough for my current machines 3-4 work benches and a parking space big enough for a long bed pick up. That way summer or winter no prob to work on stuff even the car.


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## precisionworks (Sep 15, 2011)

My wife claims that I bought the shop & the house came along as part of the deal


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## BVH (Sep 15, 2011)

She's probably right! But only you know for sure!


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## StrikerDown (Sep 16, 2011)

precisionworks said:


> My wife claims that I bought the shop & the house came along as part of the deal


 
Hey, that works for me!


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## PEU (Sep 16, 2011)

Nice Lathe Daniel, I'm sure you will have it working pretty soon!


Pablo


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## gadget_lover (Sep 16, 2011)

Thanks Pablo. 

It is working, I just figured that I'd clean it up a bit and find a place to put it before I try to use it much.

I'm still trying to decode the silly chart for the change-gears. The chart is as unclear as they get since there are about 8 gears in the gear train but you only change two. Fortunately, I know approximately how they work and at the very least I can cut a light thread and measure it to determine which gears do what. 

I have a basic 1/2 inch indexable turning set ordered, and a QCTP. Most of the other parts like boring bars and live center will transfer from my 7x10 with no problems. 

I DO have to buy a faceplate and an assortment of chucks. And a DRO. And .... Well, you know. 

Daniel


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## PEU (Sep 16, 2011)

I have an old program to calculate any thread pitch based on what gears you have available, if the gear train is the same as 7x12 lathes then it will work for you. 
Direct from my dropbox: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/3624504/gears.zip (24kb)

I recall when I had the 7x14 I ordered an odd teeth count gear to cut imperial threads with the metric leadscrew.

You can set it to english as it comes default in french and since is very old if you use win7 maybe it should be run in compatibility mode.


Pablo


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## gadget_lover (Sep 17, 2011)

Thanks for the gear program Pablo. The problem I am having is in figuring out which gear is which.

Here's the gearset currently installed and the chart that's supposed to guide me. It's hard to figure out which one of the gears is A. I'm pretty sure that B is lower right. I suspect that the little one above the biggest is A. If that's the case, I need to flip gear B over so that it is on the bigger inner gear(127T).

In the manual gear B is driven by the 127 gear for both inches and metric, but on the machine's faceplate the 127 is used for inches and the 120 is used for metric. That makes sense since you have to convert between the two.



Going from top to bottom of the diagram, Does it make sense that the top 40T gear is the spindle, the 80T is the nylon one, the lower 40 is the one at the bottom of the nylon gear, ganged to gear A (the littlest one) which is driving the largest (127T) which is ganged with the 120T which is driving gear B ???


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## PEU (Sep 17, 2011)

As I understand it: 

Gear A is the outer one of the double gear axialy coupled and gear B is the one driving the leadscrew. 
To change from imperial to metric you change the inner gear of the A pair from 127 to 120t.

[edit] Found the site where I downloaded the file years ago: http://www.varmintal.com/alath.htm#Additional_Gear


Pablo


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## precisionworks (Sep 17, 2011)

> The chart is as unclear as they get


You should be happy, try to figure this one out :nana:






Either the 127 or the 120+127 are the middle gear. The outer gears are either 54/56/57/60/63/66/69 or 78. It isn't hard to figure out if you lock the door & sit down with the manual & machine. My lathe takes almost 30 minutes for a changeover, so threading a one off shaft isn't cheap.


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## gadget_lover (Sep 17, 2011)

Ok. You have me beat. Yours is even more confusing than mine. That is somewhat comforting. 

So far I have found 4 references for the threading setup. None of them totally agree. I'll just set it up as one of them suggests and measure the thread. That should be fairly easy to do.

On the plus side, I mounted some of carbide tooling on the new one last night, and it did a very nice job of making a nice, smooth surface on some scrap of unknown alloy.  I'm starting to like the power feed. I may soon be spoiled.

http://cdn0.grizzly.com/manuals/g4000_m.pdf
http://manuals.harborfreight.com/manuals/45000-45999/45861.pdf
http://bedair.org/Shifter/Thread.html
And of course there is the chart that is mounted on the lathe.

Daniel


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## StrikerDown (Sep 18, 2011)

I don't feel so bad. When I posted how confusing my 14 X 40 chart was I got a bunch of crap about how it's all right there just look at it! 
TPI's IPR's Sheesh! 
I think I have it figured now, but those Chinese sure don't make it easy.

I still double check the first light pass when cutting threads!


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## precisionworks (Sep 18, 2011)

> those Chinese sure don't make it easy.


Think of it as manufacturing to a price point. The distributor (Grizz, Enco, HF, etc.) goes to various factories in China with only two things ... a list of desired features & a retail price point. Somewhere toward the very bottom of that list is "quick change gear box complete with metric/standard thread pitches" but that cannot be included at the price point & "quick change" now reads "change gears". Swing sells, headstock bore sells, but the method of changing the threading gears lacks curb appeal. So we buy machines like the ones that were sold 100 years ago, with a full set of change gears :naughty:

I've been thinking about getting an automatic defibrillator for the shop because every threading quote nearly causes cardiac arrest. Chances are 99.99% that the machine is not set up for the thread the customer needs, meaning the better part of 30 minutes to swap out gears before any metal gets cut. Same thing for every customer after that as the gears are almost never set for what they need.

When you don't pay a lot you don't get the extra features that make life easier 

In that regard the CNC lathe beats any manual lathe hands down. Vector spindle drives allow spindle rotation to be synchronized with ball screw advance of the threading tool & the machine can cut any thread from 100 tpi to 1 tpi with no gear changes. Notice the complete lack of gear change knobs on this Haas TL-1 (the same lathe we use at the tool & die shop):


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## StrikerDown (Sep 18, 2011)

precisionworks said:


> When you don't pay a lot you don't get the extra features that make life easier [/IMG]


 
That's life... I still reserve the right to ***** about it! 



precisionworks said:


> Notice the complete lack of gear change knobs on this Haas TL-1 (the same lathe we use at the tool & die shop):


 
Gorgeous lathe...I bet the learning curve is even worse than learning Chinglish!
My last watch had a lack of nobs/buttons but they made up for it with a huge instruction book... Huge!


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## gadget_lover (Sep 18, 2011)

StrikerDown said:


> I don't feel so bad. When I posted how confusing my 14 X 40 chart was I got a bunch of crap about how it's all right there just look at it!
> TPI's IPR's Sheesh!
> I think I have it figured now, but those Chinese sure don't make it easy.
> 
> I still double check the first light pass when cutting threads!


 
I sure hope that *I* was not one of the folks that gave you a hard time. The charts are readable to the people who create them, and to the people who have them explained to them, or to the people who have a real good manual. If you are not in one of those three groups it just plain sucks. 

As you suggest, checking the thread with a light pass is really a good idea. Even if you have figured it all out, it's easy to pick up the 32T gear sitting next to the 30T gear. There's a reason that they make machinable wax for CNC work. Even with programmed tool paths you are not 100% sure that all is well till if finishes the first run. 

I'm going to put a felt tip pen in toolpost today so that I can run it in several configurations till I'm confident that I understand which gear is which.

Daniel


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## StrikerDown (Sep 18, 2011)

Probably someone from two of your three groups! :thumbsup:

Good idea with the felt tip... use a fine point and coarse threads!


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## gadget_lover (Sep 19, 2011)

Well, I did not get a chance to play with the threading today. Instead I moved my mill around, fixed the huge dent in the back of the drip pan, cleaned up and put everything back together and ordered the right size belt. When taking the picture I realized that the sheet-metal around the broken tab was bent an extra inch in such a way that it looked original. One side is now higher that the other. Sigh. I'll fix that when I get the paint out. It still looks pretty decent.








My poor mill has been sitting on stacked 2x4's (5 inches high) since the day it got home. It literally was 2 inches from the garage door, right in the center. Now it's next to my work bench where it belongs. I only put 1 inch feet on it. The extra 4 inches made quite a difference. It seems small now at only 5'6".





Daniel


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## StrikerDown (Sep 21, 2011)

Was this a good deal? :devil:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/220854542689?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649


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## precisionworks (Sep 21, 2011)

Good buy, that's a C130-J6. Remove the straight shank that's in it & install a J6-MT adapter (probably 3MT but check for sure).


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## StrikerDown (Sep 21, 2011)

I have the same chuck with a 3 MT for the lathe. I thought this would be good for quick rides in the er40 collet on the mill. I haven't seen many Albrechts go this cheap but have put in quite a few low ball bids! Most of them go over $100 before the last few seconds of the auction.


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## precisionworks (Sep 21, 2011)

> I thought this would be good for quick rides in the er40 collet on the mill.


Check the TIR before you decide what to do. Total TIR = runout of the ER40 collet + runout of the straight shank + runout of the chuck. If you mount a J6-R8 adapter in the chuck the runout will be as low as possible.


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## StrikerDown (Sep 22, 2011)

A few years ago I picked up a NIB Old stock Jacobs keyless that I put on a Jacobs brand R8... TIR .0003-.0005. (off 1/8" and 1/2" end mills)
I will check the TIR on this one but, I want it for a quick in and out of the collet, hopefully it won't have too much run out!


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## gadget_lover (Sep 22, 2011)

Nice catch there!


Dan


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## StrikerDown (Sep 22, 2011)

Thanks Daniel,
I missed out on one I really wanted last week (or so) it went for $real cheap... 0-1/4" Looked brand spankin!


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## gadget_lover (Sep 23, 2011)

When I first realized this was an Albrecht, It was an OMG moment. It's worth a sizable part of what I spent on the lathe. It looks un-used other than the light engraving near the knurled area that identified it as belonging to Kaiser at one point. I was amused at the fact that the MT2 taper was greased. They would not be able to drill a 1/8 inch hole without spinning.








Today I cleaned off the grease and had a second OMG moment.






How stupid do you have to be to engrave your name on a precision ground taper? How could they have missed the fact that it is smooth as glass? Would they not have at least GUESSED that there was a reason for this?

Now I have to figure out a graceful way to remove the protruding parts of a hundred or so little craters without making a mess of it. I tend to do badly at that kind of thing. At least it is salvageable. 

Daniel


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## gadget_lover (Sep 23, 2011)

Just a progress update.

I'm really happy with the lathe so-far. I've come to the conclusion that the previous owner was a bozo. 

I went to change the speed and found that the main belt was so tight that it only fit one place. A little research shows that some 9x20 lathes use a belt that is 710mm long, but some others use a 730mm long belt. You can guess what I had and what I needed.

I finally got a new belt today and it fits perfectly. It's super easy to change speed. You flip a the belt to a different pulley and release a lever and you are done. Changing speeds is an easy 20 second task. I used a tach and found it is within 10% of the stated speeds.

That's when I found the toothed drive belt that runs the second pulley ( for higher speeds ) was so loose that it slipped if there was any load at all! The driving pulley was almost 1/4 inch too high. My guess is that they raised it so the shorter main belt would go on. Bozo.

With the new belt in place, I decided to check the runout on the 3 jaw chuck. Yeah, I know that's a silly thing to do, but I was curious. I only had a 1/4 inch ground bar available so I chucked it and ran some measurements. At the chuck I saw .001 TIR (+- .0005 from zero) . 4 inches from the chuck I saw .002 TIR

But as nice as that is, the chuck is only 4 inches. I want bigger. I located an old used Cushman 6 inch, 3 jaw scroll in Craigslist for $65. It included a handful of turning tools and Carbide inserts. The Kentametal and Valentine tools probably covered the $65 

Yes, this is a gloat. 






Once I get a backplate for the chuck (!!! $35 without shipping !!! ) I'll really be able to evaluate it. All I know now is it is heavy and complete with no real scars and I can get replacement t jaws for it.

Daniel


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## metalbutcher (Sep 23, 2011)

Definitely worthy of a gloat. You got some really nice stuff for a very nice price. Congratulations!

Ed


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## precisionworks (Sep 23, 2011)

> Cushman 6 inch, 3 jaw scroll


Cushman has always made high quality spindle tooling. They've been manufacturing chucks since the 1800's. 







The safest approach is to pull that arbor & replace with a new one. You may be able to stone down the engraving with a Hard Arkansas stone & oil but the arbor will no longer have good contact in the area where the engraving was. 

If you can find a flashlight ( :nana: ) wipe out the bore of the tailstock & look for signs that the arbor spun in the taper. Chances are pretty good that it did just that & that the taper will need to be reamed. I did not realize how bad the taper was on my lathe until a brand new Jacobs brand arbor was used for the first time:






Since my tailstock has positive tang drive the damage is not as bad as it looks, but nothing else was going in there until it got reamed. For no more than you'll be using it, an imported HSS hand reamer will do a good job of cleaning up the taper & making it like new again. Set up the reamer like the photo below:






Flood the reamer with TapMagic or other good cutting oil & turn the reamer with a big Crescent wrench while advancing the tailstock ram:






It will look nearly new when finished:


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## BVH (Sep 23, 2011)

Barry, is that a special taper reamer or are the MT series tapers the same as any standard reamer?


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## precisionworks (Sep 23, 2011)

> is that a special taper reamer or are the MT series tapers the same as any standard reamer


Most chucking reamers & hand reamers cut a straight cylinder while the 2MT reamer cuts a cylinder with a taper of 0.59941"/foot (most people call it 5/8" per foot). They are also called Morse Taper Finishing Reamers & can be found at all the usual places. About $30 on eBay or $75 from MSC or McMaster.


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## gadget_lover (Sep 23, 2011)

The good news is that there is no visible sign of damage in the tailstock quill. It's fairly smooth to the touch, but it is not like glass. I may get a 2MT reamer anyway if testing with a blued dead center shows a poor match.

And on another note.. 

Do you ever wonder why they sell these inserts in a 10 pack to Home shop folks? Do you learn better from other's mistakes? Do you just enjoy seeing stupid screwups? Read on.

There are ten in that little package at about $5 each. I am very careful with my lathe tools and they seem to last forever. As you can see, there are 9 left of 10. They fit my 3/8 inch shank tools.









The new lathe is now operational, and I'm getting impatient waiting for the new Tool post, lathe backplate and 1/2 inch tools to arrive. I have some time to burn as I wait for tech support to call me, On a lark I grab a 6 inch hex bar that I've used to test cuts before. It's a bit beat up but the idea was to just do some test cuts at various speeds. Hex works fine in a 3 jaw chuck, Right?





I had no problem getting it in the 4" chuck, and the jaws even just missed where I'd milled off one of the sides when I tested the 2 inch facemill. I guess the Hex was actually closer to 5 and 1/8 faces. I set the speed for 2,000 RPM and let 'er rip. My little 3/8 tool (shimmed to the right height in the 4 way tool post) had no problems with cutting the soft aluminum. The bar was not well centered, but my first thought was "Cool, I'll do an offset cut!".









At 2,000 RPM (measured at 1946) the high rake insert cut like butter. There was a spray of chips flying 2, maybe 3 feet high. I pushed the feed more aggressively and the spray became a shower. About that time I decided a toolpost chip shield would be a good idea. It also hit me that the bar should not really be off center. Then the tool hit the shoulder from a previous cut and the DOC went from around .040 to .<SOME BIG NUMBER>

That's about the point where the bar decided it did not like being off center either. A minuscule shift and the third jaw is no longer on the edge of the flat. It's down in that area removed by the facemill. The bar goes THUMP.THUMP.THUMP.SMACK and relocates itself to the drip pan about 2 feet to my right. The lathe has not slowed during any of this. My test bar is now decorated with deep grooves. The carbide insert is nowhere in sight. 








The Lessons learned;
1) I will need those other 9 inserts.
2) The 9x20 ripped that bar out of the chuck where the 7x12 would have stalled. The power difference is noticable
3) A 3 jaw chuck is for round or hex. Use a 4 jaw chuck, centers or faceplate for odd shapes.
4) When set up right, I should be able to rough out anything pretty fast.
5) I was lucky.

Daniel


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## wquiles (Sep 23, 2011)

I am still learning, and now I then, I also learn about stuff the hard way 

Good thing this lesson was "free" (no blood), so it is all good :twothumbs

And I know what you mean about the 7x stalling - when I get my 12x running at 1000 RPM's and realize that I have nearly 40-50 pounds of steel rotating in the chuck and its mounting base alone, it is really easy to see how little tolerance there is for making a mistake 

Will


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## precisionworks (Sep 23, 2011)

As soon as I read "2000 rpm" I knew this would end badly. If that bar had hit your head we'd all be fighting to see who gets the dead guys lathe 

Even worse is that it probably wouldn't have killed you, just taken out an eye & part of your face. From 9" and up these machines are no longer Tinker Toys & they will hurt you badly. Unless you've already done something a few times & know what the outcome is start at a slow rpm. Increase the rpm & the feed as you get a feel for how the machine reacts under load.

Not trying to scare you or discourage you but we like having you around here


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## StrikerDown (Sep 24, 2011)

Graphic display of why it's called the School of HARD KNOCKS!

I'm so glad you are able to tell about it.

Now would be a good time to find the old post of Will Q's of why you don't spin up real long bar stock with lots of it hanging out the back side of the spindle unsupported!


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## gadget_lover (Sep 24, 2011)

Thanks for the nice compliment... I think. LOL

I'm neither scared nor discouraged. Sometimes one needs to get a feel for the forces you are working with. When you are lucky there's no real damage. It was really a nice introduction to how much I need to respect this one.

Tomorrow I mount the laminated chart that shows the right RPM for various size stock to get a proper SFM. Then I play with threading. 

Daniel


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## darkzero (Sep 24, 2011)

Glad nothing was hurt, especially you or any one else that might have been around! Although nothing funny about the story, "DOC went from around .040 to .<SOME BIG NUMBER>", was kind of amusing. Again, glad everything is ok, but it's times like these you can look back on & laugh about. Thanks for sharing.

Is the MT shank on your Albrecht integral? It kind of looks like it & that sucks if it is but I'm sure you will be able to clean it up.


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## gadget_lover (Sep 26, 2011)

I have no pictures at the moment, but I picked up an 'import' AXA wedge style toolpost. It fits the 9x20 perfectly. All I had to do was remove the pressed in bolt that the original turret toolpost used and drill and tap for the 9/16 x 18 that came with the new one. The plinth is exactly the same size as the block of the post.

The tooplpost came from allindutrialsupply via eBay. All mating parts of the toolpost AND the holders are ground. A quick check with my height-gage showed they were pretty consistent. I hope the extra holders I buy will also be as nice. I'd recommend this one to anyone who can't afford/does not need an Aloris or Dorian

It fits the 1/2 inch tools I bought from SHARS quite well. 

Amazingly, I cleaned up the garage (created 50 sq feet of clear space but have not turned a thread yet. 

Daniel


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## gadget_lover (Oct 1, 2011)

I had a chance to play around today. I mounted the 6 inch 4 jaw import that I picked up last week. The 6 inch backplate from LMS was easy to work with. I followed the normal procedure of facing the spigot, then the lip that fits in the chuck recess, then the surface that the chuck snugs up against. As usual, the process of matching the recess will drive you crazy as you try to creep up on it a few thousandths at a time. I managed a non interference fit with no discernible play. The books say to go a little oversize so that you have to seat it with a mallet, but I did not trust being able to get them apart if I tried that trick.

I drilled the bolt pattern on my mill. Boy, do I love that DRO. I centered it, then chose the bolt circle setting and 5 minutes later I had all 4 bolt holes drilled in exactly the right spots. Put it on the chuck and all 4 were perfectly aligned.

A few years back I mounted a backplate on a 4 inch chuck for my 7x12 lathe. It took two days to get right, and the holes had to be filled and re-drilled in a different spot. Today took 2 and a half hours including cleaning up afterwards. My how times have changed.

Also in the picture is the cheap AXA wedge tool post. It worked quite well today. It's easy to use, works smoothly and predictably. It's currently mounted a bit off center because the last thing I did was rotate the compound about 10 degrees and put a slight taper on the edge of the backplate to make it easier to position when mating it to the chuck. It's normally square with the plinth.

You'll note that the troublesome piece of 5.5 sided aluminum is firmly locked in the chuck.  4 jaws are sometimes THE answer.






Daniel


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## wquiles (Oct 1, 2011)

gadget_lover said:


> 4 jaws are sometimes THE answer.


And sometimes 6 jaws are even better :devil:

(although of course only for round stock!)

Will


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## precisionworks (Oct 1, 2011)

wquiles said:


> And sometimes 6 jaws are even better :devil:
> 
> (although of course only for round stock!)
> 
> Will


The biggest drawback to any 3-jaw or 6-jaw precision chuck (Set-Tru, Adjust True, etc.) is that they are delicate. The manual with these chucks emphasize that the user should never use a chuck key longer than the one provided with the chuck so that the scroll will not be damaged. That dramatically limits the amount of tightening torque that can be applied & limits the grip on the part, whether 3-jaw or 6-jaw. This isn't an issue for tool room use or for use when gripping thin walled tubes, but it is a problem when a very secure grip is needed so that a large DOC and/or a fast feed can be used. In those situations the 4-jaw beats any other method of work holding, although the 5C collet comes in as a close contender for small diameter work. 

What to do when a tight grip is needed with the 4-jaw? Grab your favorite Tommy bar (cheater bar) and slip it over the chuck key handle for added torque. The Tommy bar that hangs behind my lathe is 18" long and I've never had a part shift when snugged down with the Tommy bar. 

With a scroll chuck all the torque from one pinion is transmitted through the scroll to tighten all the jaws at the same time. A Tommy bar certainly helps a non-precision scroll chuck grip tighter but the grip is still far less than the 4-jaw, using an identical length Tommy bar to tighten both. When a part needs a very tight grip the 4-jaw provides the best solution (or the 5C collet for small diameters). When less than a maximum grip is desired the scroll chuck does a good job.


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## gadget_lover (Nov 2, 2011)

Well, the engraving came off the Albrecht chuck's mt3 arbor with no problems. There are still some pits but no raised areas. 

The big 4 jaw came in real handy when I enlarged the bore of my mill's drive pulley to fit the new (22 year old new stock) 3 HP, 3 ph motor. I was able to bore it out with no problems at all, even when gripping it by the OD of the 3 inch section of the pulley. The new motor is damn near silent. 1000% better than the old one.

But as I was finishing I noticed the lathe had developed a growl. The headstock bearings appear to have died. 

Has anyone replaced the headstock bearings in a 9x20 like this one? Any gotchas? At least if I need to use the mill to fix it, I have that back in service.

Daniel
P.S. Gloat: The motor was $40 on Craigslist. It fit perfectly.


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## gadget_lover (Nov 4, 2011)

The good news... Bearings are available and a standard size (32007). Bad news, $20 each. Good news, they will be here Saturday. 

Have you ever wondered about the impact of bad bearings? Me neither. But here's a test piece that I used to do several different functions on my lathe. Notice the light reflections on the left side. That section was turned by hand the first day I had the lathe. Notice how the light is a solid bar all the way across. That's a nice smooth cut, even though I did not use a properly adjusted cutting tool.

Now look at the right hand side. It was turned a few days ago, using the auto feed function. I was set kind of coarse on this test, so you can see the tool marks clearly. But look at the light reflections. They are jagged, like lightning bolts. In real life I can clearly see that there are what appear to be 1/8 inch wide facets that are just barely flat. That's from the chuck wobbling in the bad bearing.






Those facets should have been a clue. I've seen something similar when the chuck was not tightened properly on an irregularly shaped rod.

Just thought I'd share.

Daniel


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## precisionworks (Nov 4, 2011)

> Bearings are available and a standard size (32007). Bad news, $20 each.


You may also want to look at the precision (works) version of that bearing, NTN 4T-32007X ... but those are $40 each.

http://www.ntnamerica.com/products/...h-results/datasheet?pid=75752&cid=TRMET&ctc=B

http://www.ntn.co.jp/english/products/pdf/precision/pdf/precision-05.pdf


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## wquiles (Nov 4, 2011)

precisionworks said:


> You may also want to look at the precision (works) version of that bearing, NTN 4T-32007X ... but those are $40 each.



Maybe I am looking at this the "wrong" way, but for something like bearings, that "should" have a long live and will stay in place for a relatively long time, going from $40 to $80 (for the pair) to get precision bearings sounds (again to me) like a total no brainer - If I have to go to the trouble of removing the bad bearings and put new ones in, I would put the higher precision units in a heart beat 

$80 compared to the "many" hundreds paid in tooling and other stuff is "nothing" - that is to me a bargain upgrade.

Will


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## StrikerDown (Nov 4, 2011)

wquiles said:


> Maybe I am looking at this the "wrong" way, but for something like bearings, that "should" have a long live and will stay in place for a relatively long time, going from $40 to $80 (for the pair) to get precision bearings sounds (again to me) like a total no brainer - If I have to go to the trouble of removing the bad bearings and put new ones in, I would put the higher precision units in a heart beat
> 
> $80 compared to the "many" hundreds paid in tooling and other stuff is "nothing" - that is to me a bargain upgrade.
> 
> Will



Ditto... But then it's not my money being spent! 

Was it difficult to get the old bearings out?


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## gadget_lover (Nov 4, 2011)

I agree that the price was not a major factor. The problem I had was none of the places that I found a 32007 bearing listed the grade. The specs for the bearing in Barry's link look to be the same as the specs for what I bought. Is the grade buried in the model number by some convention? I found many prefixes and suffixes in my searches.

http://www.vxb.com/page/bearings/PROD/Kit12451

I do recommend VBX, by the way. I've only used them twice, but both times they shipped within hours and used priority mail as the default. They have a wide variety of bearing products in stock.

I do NOT look forward to removing the bearings. The last time I did wheel bearings on a car was 30 years ago, and it took 3 tries to get it right. The lathe will use the same general process. Of course, 30 years ago I only had a Chilton's, a hammer, 2 screw drivers and a pair of vice grips. Now I have all that and Google too!

Daniel


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## gadget_lover (Nov 4, 2011)

StrikerDown said:


> Ditto... But then it's not my money being spent!
> 
> Was it difficult to get the old bearings out?



I'll be removing the spindle this evening. I have to buy or make a bearing puller and bearing race remover. I found a good tutorial on the web for doing this exact model.

Once I finish THAT process I'll let you know how bad it went. Bearing races can be a real bear to do if you don't do them right. I measure a job like this by the number of busted knuckles and the number of parts I break getting it done.

Daniel


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## wquiles (Nov 4, 2011)

Cool. Good luck Daniel. Please take a "few" pictures for us visual guys :devil:


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## metalbutcher (Nov 4, 2011)

I use to have that exact same lathe and I did replace the spindle bearings. I had to make a puller, which is kind of obvious, but pulling the spindle is the easy part. The problem with a lot of the spindles on those lathes is that the fit of the bearing to the spindle is not very good at all. I had a hell of a time getting the right hand bearing off of the spindle it was so tight. From what I've read, you want a fairly snug sliding fit on the right hand bearing, one that just requires a little assistance installing besides your hand. The left hand bearing you should be able to slide on by hand force alone, but not a sloppy fit. It should take some hand force to get the left bearing on the spindle. I had to turn down the spindle surfaces to get those types of sliding fits prior to installing the new bearings. I used wet and dry paper and it took quite a long time since I didn't want to overshoot the diameter making the spindle useless. Grinding to diameter would be the proper way to fix the spindle but I don't have a grinder for that type of work. YMMV

Good luck with the bearing replacement. :thumbsup:

Ed


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## gadget_lover (Nov 4, 2011)

Thanks Will. I try to take pictures, but I really need a waterproof (well, oil and blood proof) enclosure for my camera. The Canon Powershot S95 does a great job but I'm leery about using it with messy hands. My new cell does 3D. Can anyone actually View 3D photos?

OTOH, I did this with my old cell phone... 

Question; how do you hold a 6 inch chuck so that you can mill a flat, drill a hole and tap it on the backplate AFTER you have mated the chuck to the backplate? 
Answer: Clamp a foot long 1 inch bar in the chuck and then clamp that bar in the vice that you are too lazy to remove from the mill. A jack under the bar on the far right supports that end. It was easier than trying to create a fixture for the chuck or the backplate. 







Daniel


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## precisionworks (Nov 5, 2011)

> A jack under the bar on the far right supports that end. It was easier than trying to create a fixture for the chuck or the backplate.


Nice way to set that up. I use jacks & sometimes adjustable parallels when nothing else will work.


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## gadget_lover (Nov 5, 2011)

Thanks Barry, both for the comment and for the reminder that I need to get a good set of adjustable parallels. One more tool for the tool cabinet. 

The bearings arrived today and looking at the part numbers I finally found that they are class 6x ( aka "normal" or abec1) That should still provide a maximum eccentricity of only 0.000295 inch, so I will force my self to ignore that I could have gotten one that is .000098 tighter. Maybe I'll get lucky and win the "tolerance lottery" since the class 6x runs from .000198 to .000295 inch. 

I'm off to the store to get a bearing separator and a puller set. I've decided to try and avoid using the BFH this time. That always leads to problems.

Daniel


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## precisionworks (Nov 5, 2011)

The ABEC1 bearings should be fine as those are the standard bearings found on most any machine costing under $20k. The big question is why those bearings failed as both the front & rear bearings should run in an oil bath. The oil provides a boundary layer film that separates the rolling elements from the shell & this type of bearing normally lasts for decades. 

Two possibilities come to mind. The drain plug may not have been well sealed & the oil seeped out past the plug & left the bearings dry. Or perhaps too heavy an oil was used for lubrication. Be sure to wipe out the bearing housings before assembly & then flush out both bearings with fresh oil after a few hours of running. 

I've replaced tapered rollers only once on a lathe spindle & it was a bear. Take your time before applying any great force as some parts may no longer be available or they may be really costly.


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## gadget_lover (Nov 5, 2011)

From all appearances (looking at the web, owners manual, etc) , the headstock is dry, and the bearings are greased. My guess is someone 'adjusted' the preload to make it spin better. Or pounded on something. (cringe)


One recommendation from the web is to use #2 EP grease. That sounds reasonable to me. With grease the max RPM is over 6000, and I will never run it even close to that. 

Daniel


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## metalbutcher (Nov 5, 2011)

Those bearings are not in an oil bath. I used Red & Tacky grease (or something like that) when I replaced the bearings in my 9x20 lathe.

Ed


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## precisionworks (Nov 5, 2011)

> the headstock is dry, and the bearings are greased.


It's certainly easier to machine bearing bores for grease retention than it is for an oil bath which is likely why this was done. There are at least a million grease choices so choose the one you like by color, texture & flavor ... :nana:

If the bearing housings don't already have Zerk fittings this is the time to install them. The 1/8" NPT size is popular but 1/4" NPT may also fit into the area you have to work with. You'll also need to drill & tap a hole for a pipe plug, somewhere about 180° away from the Zerk fitting. Remove the plug, pump fresh grease into the housing, reinstall the plug & you're good until the next time.


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## gadget_lover (Nov 6, 2011)

I must have offended the gods of machinery. Really pissed them off. Royally! Removing the spindle is supposed to be easy. Run a threaded rod through the spindle, use a bearing puller to brace it against the right side of the headstock and crank on the nuts as the spindle eases out of the headstock.

I Here's an excerpt from a guide on replacing the bearings on my lathe:


> You can also improvise one (a bearing puller) . A 2' piece of all-thread 1/2" to 3/4" and some nuts.
> Two pieces of plate steel are used as bearing surfaces. The white tube is a PVC 3"
> coupler from the local borg store. Try to center the threaded rod in the spindle
> hole, and crank the nuts in opposite directions.
> ...



And here is what I get instead. I made a shield from plastic to protect the paint on the lathe. I used 3/8 inch rod because it was handy. I turned a fitted plug for the left hand side of the spindle for the nut to push against. At my disposal was a 2 legged puller and a 'spider' puller. I bought them both just for this project. I tried the 2 leg puller first, but it had a tendency to tilt to one side, so I used the 3 leg puller instead.






As you can see, the three 3/8 inch screws in the 3 legged puller was not up to the task. Thank god I have a bandsaw to cut the screws off. I'd never have been able to get the nuts off.






So I got some real sturdy posts (3/4 inch solid steel) to use as legs and tried again. This time it was much more impressive. I was able to crank on the nuts until I heard the crack of the bearings breaking free. Yeah!

Wait. The spindle is not moving. No movement at all. Sigh. I managed to strip the rod. Back to the bandsaw since the nut was now immovable. 







Today I will try freeze spray on the spindle while using 1/2-13 all thread (or maybe 3/4 if I can find it) to draw the (bleep) (bleep) thing out.

Wish me luck.

Daniel


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## precisionworks (Nov 6, 2011)

> I've replaced tapered rollers only once on a lathe spindle & it was a bear. Take your time before applying any great force as some parts may no longer be available or they may be really costly.


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## gadget_lover (Nov 7, 2011)

Very good point.

This evening I tried a different setup, similar to the one shown in this document:
http://jvr33.free.fr/pdf_laser/16_cnc/tours/tour RC6123B/ReplacingSpindleBearings.pdf

It worked quite well. I used my mill to make a 11/16 hole in 3/16 inch thick hot rolled 3x10 inch steel plate. The new motor and VFD worked like a champ. The 3 HP motor did not bog at all as I pushed the 11/16 drill through the steel. I used a length of 5/8 all-thread to draw the spindle out. A 3 inch plastic pipe coupler (ABS???) was used to provide a surface to push against. Freeze spray was applied to the exposed center of the spindle liberally for about 30 seconds with the hope that it would shrink the spindle that magic little bit that I needed.

This is why I stopped after only a few turns of the screw. It bent that 3 inch wide piece of steel like it was butter.






The good news is that now I have a setup that will exert plenty of pressure and has a sacrificial link if it does not budge. It does not damage anything when I try to crank on it. Tomorrow I spray liberally with penetrating oil (the bearings are shot by now) and let it set overnight.

Wish me luck. I'm going to sacrifice a bottle of Tequilla to the gods and hope they are appeased.

Daniel


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## StrikerDown (Nov 7, 2011)

Dang! That's a tough sucker!!

Are you sure you are pulling the race and not the case?


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## precisionworks (Nov 7, 2011)

> Freeze spray was applied to the exposed center of the spindle liberally for about 30 seconds with the hope that it would shrink the spindle that magic little bit that I needed.


The part is likely picking up heat about as fast as the spray is removing it. A 20# CO2 fire extinguisher is what you'll want to cool with. IMO, heating the housings is more effective as the cast iron housings will expand faster than the steel bearing shells. One or two propane torches should do the job. If you have an IR thermometer try to heat to around 250° - 300° F.


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## Anglepoise (Nov 7, 2011)

StrikerDown said:


> Dang!
> 
> Are you sure you are pulling the race and not the case?



+1

I have pulled many bearings but this looks like something is holding or very wrong.


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## gadget_lover (Nov 7, 2011)

I'm pretty sure that the only pressure being applied is to the race. The pressure is being applied to the left hand end of the spindle, braced against the right side of the headstock. There is a picture of the spindle on page 13 of http://www.akpilot.net/Rebuild Manual/Rebuild Manual.pdf, and I setup the puller in a similar manner. There's a picture of the spindle on page 14. When the spindle is pulled out of the right side the left bearings should stay put and the right bearings should come out with the spindle, right?

Daniel


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## Anglepoise (Nov 8, 2011)

gadget_lover said:


> I'm pretty sure that the only pressure being applied is to the race. The pressure is being applied to the left hand end of the spindle, braced against the right side of the headstock. There is a picture of the spindle on page 13 of http://www.akpilot.net/Rebuild Manual/Rebuild Manual.pdf, and I setup the puller in a similar manner. There's a picture of the spindle on page 14. When the spindle is pulled out of the right side the left bearings should stay put and the right bearings should come out with the spindle, right?Daniel



From what you say above and the pictures, it should come out. The only thing might be a burr in the key-way slot. No that's not right. The slot is on a smaller diameter. Mystery. The left hand bearing should be a light fit as it has to be able to be adjusted for pre load. In a perfect world it should slide easily.My only suggestion is look for burrs on the spindle area that the left bearing has to slide on. Has it moved at all??

Good luck.


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## gadget_lover (Nov 8, 2011)

Thanks David.

I've not detected any movement at all. The right hand seal is still flush with the surface of the headstock. I'll look for burrs tonight.

Daniel


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## precisionworks (Nov 8, 2011)

Before applying any more force you should try heating the front bearing housing to 250-300° F. If the spindle doesn't move after applying heat you may have a problem.


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## Anglepoise (Nov 8, 2011)

Can we presume your spindle and bearing configuration is exactly like the picture below. If yes then any heating should be the left bearing ( preload adjustment end ) as it is this bearing that is hanging up. 





[/IMG]

Applying heat is the last resort and it looks like that point has arrived. With heat, you want to get as much as possible onto the bearing and not the spindle. I would set up your puller and tension it. Torque it down . Then 'heat' the left bearing 
( preload adjustment end ) and if /when it expands it will move rapidly ......and then cut the heat. You just need heat to get the job done and NO MORE. The pre tensioning helps in that regard.

Also have you 'un coupled' all the gears, drives etc, on the spindle between the bearings? Could be hanging up there


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## precisionworks (Nov 8, 2011)

+ 1 on the gears possibly hanging up the shaft. The spindle I worked on wouldn't release until every setscrew & keyway was free.


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## gadget_lover (Nov 9, 2011)

That's very good advice folks. I will heed it closely. I would think that the 250-300 degrees mentioned by Barry are well within the capabilities of my pair of hot air guns. Alas, a 10 hour work day with an hour commute on each end prevented me from doing more than just looking tonight. 

But guess what I found? The left bearing's inside cover / cap is smashed inward towards the bearing. The spindle must have hit the side of the hole as it was being assembled, bending the lower edge of the lip of the hole at least 1/4 inch inward. The outside cover, on the other hand is spinning freely with the spindle but I've not managed to get it to budge yet.

Thanks for all the good advise. When I get a minute to get dirty I will dig in. 

Oh. I took a 3-d picture with my evo3d cell, but realized that most people would not be able to see it.  I guess you'll have to believe me without pictures. 

Daniel


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## Anglepoise (Nov 9, 2011)

Looking at the photo below. If the left hand cover ( 7 ) has somehow got jammed onto the ground surfaces of the spindle that would / could be the problem. I wonder if the spindle moved a few thou and then jammed. Might be worth drawing the spindle the other way to see if that might release the bent cover. From the pic below, it all looks pretty basic.
Good luck.




[/IMG]


There are 4 set screws ( 14 ) . You might want to investigate what they capture and then decide if they need removing.

Also from your picture in an earlier post , its hard to see but you might not have removed the flange ( 2 ). That MUST come off.


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## gadget_lover (Nov 9, 2011)

The set screws I've seen so far are to anchor the shafts that the gear train spins on. 

The 'flange' (part 2) is actually a chuck backplate, and it is unmounted.

Yeah it does LOOK basic. It's starting to remind me of the first time I split the cases on a Triumph 650 Bonneville, The manual said to 'gently pry the cases apart' but forgot to mention that they had press fit locating pins and lacquer on bare metal surfaces as a gasket. I later found the passage in the manual that recommended a hammer and drift to "persuade" the cases to part.

I've already tapped it with the BFH, so I will need to check the headstock alignment when I'm done. 

Daniel


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## BVH (Nov 9, 2011)

gadget_lover said:


> It's starting to remind me of the first time I split the cases on a Triumph 650 Bonneville, The manual said to 'gently pry the cases apart' but forgot to mention that they had press fit locating pins and lacquer on bare metal surfaces as a gasket. I later found the passage in the manual that recommended a hammer and drift to "persuade" the cases to part.
> 
> Daniel



That brings back some fond memories! I did that somewhere around 1971 or so to a 67 Bonneville. I don't remember it coming apart as difficult as you experienced.


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## gadget_lover (Nov 9, 2011)

BVH said:


> That brings back some fond memories! I did that somewhere around 1971 or so to a 67 Bonneville. I don't remember it coming apart as difficult as you experienced.



LOL 

It really was not that bad, but the book stressed "gently" so I spent what seemed like forever being gentle. My Bonnie was worth the effort. Wish I could ride again. 

Daniel


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## Anglepoise (Nov 9, 2011)

gadget_lover said:


> ............... but forgot to mention that they had press fit locating pins and lacquer on bare metal surfaces as a gasket.
> 
> Daniel



Lets hope green Loctite was not used to 'take up any slack' on assembly.


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## BVH (Nov 9, 2011)

gadget_lover said:


> LOL
> 
> My Bonnie was worth the effort. Wish I could ride again.
> 
> Daniel



Yes, so was mine but...it didn't hold a candle to my 1970 Norton 750 Commando! Man, that thing was sleek, light fast and somewhat smooth (in the British sense of the word) with its' Isolastic engine mounting system.


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## gadget_lover (Nov 13, 2011)

Oh, what I would give for a Commando. I still think it's the sexiest bike ever built. LOL


Thanks to everyone for the help. I managed to remove the spindle tonight and the races too, without damaging anything else.

I heated the headstock to around 200 degrees but the spindle still did not budge. The spindle was heating too, so I stopped that angle of attack. Then I tried a deadblow hammer against a piece of wood while the spindle was under tension. No luck. Then I tapped a steel drift gently with a ball peen hammer and heard a 'CRACK' as it broke free. Each turn of the wrench on the nut rewarded me with another 'SNICK' and I could see the spindle was finally moving. The spindle (with the right side bearing) was finally free of the headstock and in my hand.

The bearing races were really easy to remove. All I needed to do was make a 1/4 inch long 2.25diameter drift to pull the race free. I did not have 2.25 inch bar, but I had 2.5. But I was not thinking, so I cut a 2 inch piece of 2.5 inch solid bar with the intention of turning the last 1/2 inch down. 2 inch makes it easy to hold in the chuck. I did that, only to realize that the drift needed to pass through the length of the bore. I spent the next hour turning the 2 inch long piece down to 2.25 inches and drilling through it for the drawbar. 

That's when I realized the 2.25inch was a good size for putting the race in, but I needed 2.1 to fit the hole in the INSIDE of the headstock to push the race out. Back to my little lathe. I filled a 12x8x6 box with swarf from cutting down that bar. 

The bearings came out with no problems at all. 

Tomorrow I will ensure that the bearing surfaces are really round (using vblocks, granite surface plate and a tdi) and stone off any high spots. Then I will put it all back together. 

Wish me luck.

Daniel


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## gadget_lover (Nov 13, 2011)

The bearing races are in, and the grease covers are in place. 

I checked the spindle, and was pleased to see that the bearing seats appear to be in pretty good shape. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TD1E3cLJ-os

Before I proceed to install the bearings onto the spindle I wanted to ensure that the seats were round and had no deformities . I used the V blocks to support the spindles and the .0005 test indicator to check the surface.

The setup was on my surface plate, but it could have been on any surface. The V-blocks and indicator did not move during the test. The

There was no discernible deviation from one end of the seat to the other .

I took this precaution because it was a real hassle getting the old bearings off the spindle. I was afraid I'd damaged it.

Dan


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## Anglepoise (Nov 13, 2011)

Great news. Bet you will be happy to get it all back together. I looked at the movie and I do not know if this was 'your' spindle or the movie was of some other. Check for galling on the shaft diameter where the inner race slides on. The preload end needs to be able to adjust and if adjusted too tight, be able to slide the other way with a gentle tap.You certainly do not want it as tight as it was. If it was mine I would spin it and use some 1500 grit wet and dry.Just make the metal shine. No more than that. And lube the shaft before assembly. There is bound to be some galling.
Good luck.


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## gadget_lover (Nov 13, 2011)

Yep, that was my spindle. 


I have another 20 minutes or so while the bearings are warming, so I will take your advice and give it a quick polish. Good thing I still have that other lathe. 

Daniel


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## gadget_lover (Nov 15, 2011)

I am not a happy camper. I polished the spindle (mounted between centers on my 7x12) and was quite happy at the results. I heated the bearings, oiled the spindle and waited. After 1/2 hour the IR thermometer read 300, so I pulled the first bearing and slapped it on the spindle. It stuck less than 1/2 way down the first seat. I co.uld not believe it. The IR thermo read in the 170s. I checked the one in the over right after pulling the seet from the oven and only got 198 degrees. It appears they had not soaked enough. 20 minutes later the bearing was back in the oven

When the timer went off 30 minutes later checked the temps again, and they were above 250. I grabbed the first bearing and slapped it on the spindle. It caught for just a moment before sliding almost the full length of the spindle. The oil smoked a little, but it was almost right where I wanted it.

The joy and amazement lasted less than a second. In my excitement I put it on backward. Yes, the taper was pointing the wrong way. And in in that second, it cooled enough that it was not budging. Dejected, I returned to the garage and finished my exercise routine with the socket wrench, tuning that 11 inch long 16 tpi screw about 120 times (60 degrees at a time) till the bearing puller managed to get it free again.

Back to the oven once more. More waiting. RE polished the spindle. I prayed that I did not damage the bearings with all these shenanigans and tried once again.

This time I did much better. The right hand bearing went on straight and smooth, all the way down and in the correct orientation. I mounted the spindle and used a bullnose center on the tailstock to hold it steady while I readied for the left hand bearing. A quick snatch from the oven and a race to the garage was followed by flawlessly slipping it onto the spindle. It stopped 1/2 inch short due to the fact that the leather fingers from my glove were trapped between the bearing and the race. 

Sigh.

To finally shorten a long story, I did manage to get it reassembled, but it's not yet adjusted properly. I can hear a ticking from the right bearing as I spin the spindle. I know that should not be there. A short run-in ( 20 at slow, 10 minutes at medium speed) heated the headstock from 73 degrees to 94. The motor mounts to the headstock and it was 110 degrees, so I can't tell if the bearings are heating up or if it's the motor heat that I saw. A quick test cut was not as smooth as I expected, though better than before.

I'm going to give it a few days till I can devote some time to it before I proceed. If I have damaged something and have to redo it, at least now I know what not to do.

Daniel


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## Anglepoise (Nov 15, 2011)

The important thing is that you now know exactly what is what. You will need to order a new bearing for the chuck ( R hand ) end.
Now as far as the preload adjustable end is concerned. In a perfect world this bearing should NOT require heat to install. Remember it needs to be 
able to slide back and forth a litle when you set preload.When you are adjusting preload........ if its a little tight, back off the pre load adjusting nut and gently tap the spindle towards the tail stock. In a perfect world the bearing in question will move easily. Now if the bearing requires heat to get it to slide on the spindle you are going to have a very hard time adjusting the preload. Anyway I have voiced my opinion quite enough and wish you all the best is getting it running as new as I am sure you will.

Good luck......


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## precisionworks (Nov 15, 2011)

> Remember it needs to be
> able to slide back and forth a little when you set preload.


+1

You'll need at least .0001" clearance.


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## gadget_lover (Nov 16, 2011)

Thanks for all the help guys. It is really appreciated.



> You'll need at least .0001" clearance.



 Oh, a good excuse to get a good inside mic. 

Daniel


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## BVH (Nov 16, 2011)

What??? You can't do that with your eye?


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## cmacclel (Nov 17, 2011)

If you have to do it again put the spindle in the freezer before installing the heated bearings.

Mac


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