# Assisted (not auto) OTFs by Schrade/S&W



## TigerhawkT3 (Sep 28, 2008)

I just got a catalog from Smoky Mountain Knife Works and was flipping through it, and an interesting gadget caught my eye. It's a spring-assisted, but not automatic, OTF, with either Schrade (different body colors available) or S&W (different blade styles available) badges, with slightly different body styles between the two brands. The slide mechanism is attached to the blade, so it starts at the bottom, and once you get it started, the blade pops out, with the slide moving to the other end of the body. Not quite as handy as a true D/A OTF, but more legal, and still looks pretty cool to me.

Opinions on these?


----------



## 2000xlt (Sep 28, 2008)

I saw this too, look pretty neat,


----------



## sledhead (Sep 28, 2008)

Very interesting and surely worth looking into. Thanks for the link.


----------



## yaesumofo (Sep 29, 2008)

The SOG assisted is extremely popular.
http://www.themartialist.com/pecom/sogflashtwo.htm
tells the story.

I have the aluminum version which costs a bit more but I have found it to be extremely reliable and very safe. The Clip on the SOG is absolutely one of the best pocket clips in any business. It holds the knife securely as well as very discreetly.
They make this knife in several versions. One is sure to work for you.
Yaesumofo


----------



## adamlau (Sep 29, 2008)

My opinion? Hold off until the Plaza Cutlery Custom Knife Show in Costa Mesa. See you there  .


----------



## gswitter (Sep 29, 2008)

I noticed those Schrade assisted-openers as well.

Wonder which light vendor provided our info to the Smokey Mountain catalog? Not that I'm particularly bothered, just curious.


----------



## Gary123 (Sep 29, 2008)

I recently purchased this Schrade assisted opener - OTF. I was a real piece of junk; I returned it. The handle is really fat (like a large carrot in diameter), the movement seems cheap, and what appeared to be the safety kept hanging up and making operation difficult. But just the size of the handle and the low quality of the movement killed it for me. It does look good in pictures.

I've generally been impressed with what i've seen of S & W though. I believe they are trying to prove that nice knives can sell for reasonable prices. I've seen 4 of their liner locks, no autos or assisted openers.


----------



## Monocrom (Sep 29, 2008)

Taylor Cutlery bought the Schrade name when that company went belly-up. 

T.C. also makes the S&W knives, which enjoy a rather poor reputation. I'm actually a fan of the SWAT series of S&W knives. But you have to look for a sample that is built right. Taylor Cutlery is not known for Q.C., nor for lock strength.


----------



## TigerhawkT3 (Sep 29, 2008)

Gary123 said:


> I recently purchased this Schrade assisted opener - OTF. I was a real piece of junk; I returned it. The handle is really fat (like a large carrot in diameter), the movement seems cheap, and what appeared to be the safety kept hanging up and making operation difficult. But just the size of the handle and the low quality of the movement killed it for me. It does look good in pictures.
> 
> I've generally been impressed with what i've seen of S & W though. I believe they are trying to prove that nice knives can sell for reasonable prices. I've seen 4 of their liner locks, no autos or assisted openers.


Dang... I was almost set to buy one.  I guess my SOG Trident won't have company.


----------



## HoopleHead (Sep 29, 2008)

i just ordered a Schrade OTF from knifecenter. not expecting much for $33, just curious to see what an "assisted OTF" was like. hopefully we'll see a nice high quality version by someone soon. anyways, will report back once i check it out.


----------



## TigerhawkT3 (Sep 30, 2008)

Way to take one for the team! :thumbsup:


----------



## PhantomPhoton (Sep 30, 2008)

Well I don't want to sound like a zealot from either side of the issue on the OTF knife... but that is still very illegal in some states. So check the letter of the law where you live; take manufacturer's claims with a grain of salt. Especially for a cheap knife.
That said I may be somewhat of production knife company snob but I don't like Schrade or S&W knives. I'm sure there's a couple gems somewhere in their products but the past few years haven't impressed me. :ironic: And FSM that linked video was annoying!

I really don't like most of the assisted openers that I've played with. Many were no faster or easier to operate than it was to manually open most of my other folders. On the other hand if you want an auto move to the proper place or get the right job and then buy a* real* auto. It will come at a *real* price but other than that you won't be disappointed.


----------



## TigerhawkT3 (Sep 30, 2008)

PhantomPhoton said:


> Well I don't want to sound like a zealot from either side of the issue on the OTF knife... but that is still very illegal in some states. So check the letter of the law where you live; take manufacturer's claims with a grain of salt. Especially for a cheap knife.
> That said I may be somewhat of production knife company snob but I don't like Schrade or S&W knives. I'm sure there's a couple gems somewhere in their products but the past few years haven't impressed me. :ironic: And FSM that linked video was annoying!
> 
> I really don't like most of the assisted openers that I've played with. Many were no faster or easier to operate than it was to manually open most of my other folders. On the other hand if you want an auto move to the proper place or get the right job and then buy a* real* auto. It will come at a *real* price but other than that you won't be disappointed.


How is that illegal, unless OTFs are specifically outlawed? The illegality of D/A or S/A OTFs (federally and, over 2", in CA) isn't that they're OTF, it's that they're autos. If you get a folder that opens with the push of a button not connected to the blade (as in, an auto), it's just as illegal as an auto OTF. Granted, its being an OTF means that people who see it may think it's an auto, but that's only because it's the first non-auto OTF (that I know of).

I, too, find assisted knives just as fast as manuals, but I do find them easier, as they don't require any snapping of the wrist in the slightest. I don't know if that really matters, since knife preferences are all different strokes and YMMV, but whatever. :shrug:

Hmm... moving and getting a new job... well that's easy. :ironic: :nana:


----------



## gorn (Sep 30, 2008)

TigerhawkT3 said:


> How is that illegal, unless OTFs are specifically outlawed?



Take a look at section 653k of the california penal code. I think that OTF schrade is really pushing it. I know in some counties in california the District Attorneys have decided that any assisted opening knife is considered a "switchblade" under that section.

But then again, No switchblade is illegal in california if it's in you're house. Just figure a way to get it there with out it being in public......


----------



## PhantomPhoton (Sep 30, 2008)

TigerhawkT3 said:


> How is that illegal, unless OTFs are specifically outlawed? The illegality of D/A or S/A OTFs (federally and, over 2", in CA) isn't that they're OTF, it's that they're autos. If you get a folder that opens with the push of a button not connected to the blade (as in, an auto), it's just as illegal as an auto OTF. Granted, its being an OTF means that people who see it may think it's an auto, but that's only because it's the first non-auto OTF (that I know of).



Well up here in the anti-sunshine state.  The law pretty much can be read that if it is deployed with a spring it is illegal.



> (a) Manufactures, sells, or disposes of or possesses any instrument or weapon of the kind usually known as slung shot, sand club, or metal knuckles,* or spring blade knife, or any knife the blade of which is automatically released by a spring mechanism or other mechanical device, or any knife having a blade which opens, or falls, or is ejected into position by the force of gravity, or by an outward, downward, or centrifugal thrust or movement*;



It varies from place to place unfortunately. And enforcement of such things is always going to be shades of grey as well. Pretty much by the definition above, for my current state, many knives are potentially illegal depending upon how you open them. 
Not saying I agree with it but it is what it is. Know your laws before purchasing any sort of gimmick like the Schrade that tries to skirt around the law. If you end up in the wrong situation it could become a headache. Also a good idea to know laws if you're travelling too. I always switch to my _California knife_ EDC when I'm there.

:green:


----------



## Monocrom (Oct 1, 2008)

TigerhawkT3 said:


> .... it's the first non-auto OTF (that I know of).


 
Boker Matic, a classic non-auto OTF. I was lucky to find one nearly a year ago in a leather shop that mainly sold cheap, junk knives.


----------



## PhantomPhoton (Oct 1, 2008)

The Kershaw ripcord has been out for quite awhile and is an OTF. There might be another like that out there too, can't remember for certain.


----------



## TigerhawkT3 (Oct 1, 2008)

gorn, I've read 653k several times, and I can't find where it mentions OTF as opposed to OTS. As long as the release mechanism is attached to the blade, and as long as there's a bias towards closure, it seems all right.

Monocrom, do you have a Boker-matic? What's it like? What's the actual mechanism? In this BF thread, one poster mentions the Boker-matic as a "POS." Do you think that's justified, or not?

PhantomPhoton, do you have a Ripcord? I've read a little about it on Kershaw's site, and I don't really understand the mechanism. Is the open/close action handled by the sheath? I want to be able to use the mechanism without relying on a separate piece.


----------



## Monocrom (Oct 2, 2008)

TigerhawkT3 said:


> Monocrom, do you have a Boker-matic? What's it like? What's the actual mechanism? In this BF thread, one poster mentions the Boker-matic as a "POS." Do you think that's justified, or not?


 
I bought the Boker Matic that I found at the Leather shop. It's more of a novelty knife that is generally well put together. 

No mechanism per-se. As you can see from the pic in my earlier post, there's an off-set groove cut into the left side of the handle. The thumb pad with the screw in the center of it, that's what you push forward with your thumb to expose the blade. The trick is, the left side of the handle contains a thin, black plastic handle scale. When you push up on the front of the scale, it pivots. And the back of the scale gets pushed down a bit. Now the off-set groove isn't off-set anymore. It's straight. You manually push the thumb pad all the way forward. Once the blade is completely open, you press down on the front of the handle scale so that it is once again aligned perfectly with the rest of the handle. Now that the groove is off-set with the blade exposed, it stays locked open.

To release, you push up on the front of the scale again; and the knife closes as fast as a typical OTF automatic opens. (Watch those fingers!).

It takes awhile to get used to, but the knife opens easily with one hand. Problem is, it closes just as easily; since the left handle scale seems to pivot on butter. That's one reason why some consider this knife to be a POS. Also, I think some folks may have mistaken this knife for being rugged because of the thick handle. The Boker Matic is best for light-duty chores only. For what it is, I don't think of it as a piece of $#^%. It's a novelty knife with better build-quality than other such pieces of cutlery.


----------



## gorn (Oct 2, 2008)

TigerhawkT3 said:


> gorn, I've read 653k several times, and I can't find where it mentions OTF as opposed to OTS. As long as the release mechanism is attached to the blade, and as long as there's a bias towards closure, it seems all right.



It doesn't talk about OTF or side openers. But it does talk about the blade being able to open with a spring or gravity. It doesn't matter if the mechanism is attached to the blade or the frame. I had an old techa micro-knife that basically was a fixed blade. You pushed a button and a blade guard would retract into the handle. I argued that it wasn't a switchblade as designated under 653k with some Judges I worked with. They all said that if it was to come before them in a criminal case they would deem it to be a switchblade.

Here is a link to the tekna. http://www.artofmassproduction.com/designgallery3.html


----------



## TigerhawkT3 (Oct 2, 2008)

gorn said:


> It doesn't talk about OTF or side openers. But it does talk about the blade being able to open with a spring or gravity. It doesn't matter if the mechanism is attached to the blade or the frame. I had an old techa micro-knife that basically was a fixed blade. You pushed a button and a blade guard would retract into the handle. I argued that it wasn't a switchblade as designated under 653k with some Judges I worked with. They all said that if it was to come before them in a criminal case they would deem it to be a switchblade.
> 
> Here is a link to the tekna. http://www.artofmassproduction.com/designgallery3.html


Yes, it does matter if the mechanism is attached to the blade (according to 653k). It's then in the same league as a thumb stud, which puts the knife that uses it in the company of the zillion other assisted openers available.

Could we stick to the written laws? Thanks.


----------



## PhantomPhoton (Oct 2, 2008)

> For the purposes of this section, "switchblade knife" means a
> knife having the appearance of a pocketknife *and includes a
> spring-blade knife*, snap-blade knife, gravity knife or any other
> similar type knife, the blade or blades of which are two or more
> ...



Looks like the California law is a lot like the law up here to me.


----------



## GLOCK18 (Oct 2, 2008)

*I have a CCW permit to carry a Glock17, during a traffic stop I had my glock and a ripcord in my truck, I told the offer I had my glock on my person and showed my CCW after a few minutes he noticed the ripcord he ask if it was an Auto, I told him it was not an Auto, he then ask if I would exit the vechicle and leave the knife and the glock in the truck, after a few more minutes he told me in his view the ripcord was an auto, he removed the knife and gave me a ticket to appear, so Glock ok knife not ok, go figure, the DA did not agree and the knife got lost some were along the line. So from now on I'll keep to carring my glock and leave the knifes at home manual and auto.*


----------



## gorn (Oct 3, 2008)

TigerhawkT3 said:


> Yes, it does matter if the mechanism is attached to the blade (according to 653k). It's then in the same league as a thumb stud, which puts the knife that uses it in the company of the zillion other assisted openers available.
> 
> Could we stick to the written laws? Thanks.



653k has been amended since the last time I read it. I'm glad there is an assisted opening exemption. Sorry to get your panites in a bunch.


----------



## TigerhawkT3 (Oct 3, 2008)

GLOCK18 said:


> I have a CCW permit to carry a Glock17, during a traffic stop I had my glock and a ripcord in my truck, I told the offer I had my glock on my person and showed my CCW after a few minutes he noticed the ripcord he ask if it was an Auto, I told him it was not an Auto, he then ask if I would exit the vechicle and leave the knife and the glock in the truck, after a few more minutes he told me in his view the ripcord was an auto, he removed the knife and gave me a ticket to appear, so Glock ok knife not ok, go figure, the DA did not agree and the knife got lost some were along the line. So from now on I'll keep to carring my glock and leave the knifes at home manual and auto.


That officer stole your knife. Next time, get a receipt.


gorn said:


> 653k has been amended since the last time I read it. I'm glad there is an assisted opening exemption. Sorry to get your panites in a bunch.


No worries.


----------



## GLOCK18 (Oct 3, 2008)

TigerhawkT3 said:


> That officer stole your knife. Next time, get a receipt.
> 
> No worries.


 

The officer did state on the ticket he removed the light from the truck, It was lost by the DA office.


----------



## Monocrom (Oct 4, 2008)

GLOCK18 said:


> The officer did state on the ticket he removed the light from the truck, It was lost by the DA office.


 
Someone at the D.A.'s office stole your knife. :shakehead


----------



## Lunal_Tic (Oct 4, 2008)

I have the Schrade assisted OTF. It's interesting and not terrible for the money. The lock on mine is so stiff that I don't even bother. 

One thing I noticed was that for me to hold it securely when opening I had to put a knotted loop through the pocket clip so that it adds a little length. The knot sits just at the bottom of my fist as I hold the knife and when I move the blade up to open I'm less likely to drop it.

-LT


----------



## TigerhawkT3 (Oct 4, 2008)

Lanyard pics?


----------



## Lunal_Tic (Oct 4, 2008)

TigerhawkT3 said:


> Lanyard pics?



As requested though it's not much of a lanyard.







-LT


----------



## TigerhawkT3 (Oct 5, 2008)

Pretty cool, LT. Is that regular 550 or something else? What duties does this knife have for you?

I ordered one of these (the Schrade version). I'll add my opinions to this thread when it arrives.


----------



## Lunal_Tic (Oct 5, 2008)

TigerhawkT3 said:


> Pretty cool, LT. Is that regular 550 or something else? What duties does this knife have for you?



It's just plain ol' 550 partially gutted. It took a couple of retyings to get the knot where I liked it. I do the same thing to a number of smaller knives I have for the same reason, increased purchase.

The lock up on this is pretty good but because of where I live and the racket it makes opening it is relegated to house duty. I bought it because it's unusual not really because I planned on carrying it. Also closing it one-handed is pretty tough on the specimen I have and the knives I carry regularly need to be easy open/close.


-LT


----------



## HoopleHead (Oct 9, 2008)

received yesterday. its a POS. the only reason someone should ever buy one is to be a guinea pig so they can tell others not to buy one. more info and pics from this guinea pig soon.


----------



## Monocrom (Oct 9, 2008)

HoopleHead said:


> received yesterday. its a POS. the only reason someone should ever buy one is to be a guinea pig so they can tell others not to buy one. more info and pics from this guinea pig soon.


 
If it makes you feel better, I recently bought a Gerber Artifact tool.... and came to all of the exact same conclusions.

I guess misery *does *love company. :buddies:


----------



## HoopleHead (Oct 9, 2008)

i was looking at those Artifacts too, good (or bad i guess) to hear the news

yeah, back to knifecenter goes the Schrade, after i take a bunch of pics and post


----------



## TigerhawkT3 (Oct 9, 2008)

:grumble: I hope your standards are higher than mine. My order's supposed to come in tomorrow, so I'll be able to look at it firsthand.


----------



## Lunal_Tic (Oct 9, 2008)

HoopleHead said:


> received yesterday. its a POS. the only reason someone should ever buy one is to be a guinea pig so they can tell others not to buy one. more info and pics from this guinea pig soon.



I guess I was either lucky or didn't expect as much since for me the knife isn't all that bad but then I got it as more a novelty rather than a user. I've had other OTF knifes in the same price range (years ago) that were in fact junk and weren't just relegated to opening letters because of my concerns about carrying them but because that's all they could handle.

YMMV

-LT


----------



## TigerhawkT3 (Oct 10, 2008)

Came in today, and I've been messing with it for a few hours. It's a bit lighter than it looks (i.e., it "feels" flimsy), but it seems all right. The side-mounted safety switch is EXTREMELY stiff. It takes a lot of force on the activator to pop the blade out. Basically, everything on this knife takes a lot of force to do. On the plus side, the blade pops out with amazing velocity, although there is an audible "boing" from the spring, and I'm not really comfortable with keeping the spring under so much tension all the time, especially long-term. The factory edge is shaving sharp. The blade locks up nice and tight, and the side safety can be used to lock the blade open in addition to the normal locking mechanism next to the activator.

The mechanism requires about a quarter inch of pushing before it kicks in, although once you've pushed it a bit, there's no bias toward closure. Still, it should still be technically legal in CA. I don't know if I'll carry it, but time will tell.

If I think of anything else, I'll let you know.


----------



## HoopleHead (Oct 12, 2008)

so heres the pics.

so thumbs down from me. a $34 knife is fairly cheap, but there are definitely ~$30 knives that feel great and are good quality. IMO this one is neither. the handle feels like cheap plastic, is very light and thus the balance of the knife is very awkward, almost all towards the front when open. the safety is very hard to dis/engage, definitely not useful in a SD situation. you have to push the switch forward to open, and while closed the switch is at the very bottom, so it takes an awkward grip to open, not that easy to do one handed. closing takes a decent amount of force, and again since you have to move the switch all the way back down to the bottom you kinda need to shift hand positions, again hard to do one handed. no confidence in the durability of the parts or mechanism.

sharp out of the box, clip is fine, locks up solid.

so, a novelty knife at best. not a user, not a SD option. not extreme, not for survival. returned it already. great idea that id love to see better implemented, even at a higher price.

the box





useless generic instructions that had nothing to do with this knife





closed position





glass breaker tip and clip





very bulky, thick handle





safety on the side





back and clip





slide it forward a bit, its about at this point where the spring catches and shoots it out.





opened and locked





again





top, unsharpened swedge


----------



## TigerhawkT3 (Oct 17, 2008)

I've started to break mine in, and it's gotten smoother. There's a bit of a squeeze where the blade comes out, so it's worn the black coating off a small line, but I don't really mind. The safety is still extremely stiff. Overall, though, I've gotten reasonably comfortable with it.

It's not "2D plastic incan" plastic, BTW. It's Zytel. I have a couple knives with Zytel handles, including the SOG Trident I already carry. If it's the same stuff, it should be just fine.

However:

There are nicer $30 knives, and much nicer $70 knives (etc. and so forth). Still, it's pretty neat (not many assisted OTFs out there), and it seems to work all right.


----------

