# surefire E2D LED Defender vrs Olight M20 Warrior PREMIUM



## hnoppenberger (Dec 2, 2008)

i am up on the fence between these two lights.

i live almost next to the surefire HQ in fountain valley, so what attracts me to the surefire is no questions asked fixes for the light when it breaks
(have a E2E used for work and have had the tail cap and bulbs replaced free)

the thing i hate about the e2e is it goes through batterys and bulbs WAY to fast. and i cant use rechargables because that reduces bulb life to almost nothing.

now the price is 150 for the SF and almost 100 for the o light.

just seeing if anyone can shed some light on this if they have had some comparisons between the two. 

i am a mechanic and hunter and go through lights like mad at work. would really like a tough light that will last me for years. i was planning on using the 4 pack rechargables from battery junction.


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## 1996alnl (Dec 2, 2008)

Welcome to CPF
I have both these lights and i would recommend both of them.
You said you go through lights like crazy,well my E2DL fell off a 50ft scaffold once and landed on asphalt.
Other than the war wounds the light works perfect,how's that for durability?
I use rechargable LiFePo4 cells in mine.
Truly an amazing light that puts out way more than 120 lumens.
The M20 is also a great light,don't know if it's as durable but it looks like it's built tuff.
This sucker can throw a beam like a hand held lazer.The UI is really good exept for the headache inducing strobe.
I get almost 3hrs of (unregulated) runtime with a 18650 cell,and just over an hour with RCR123's regulated and a bit brighter.
They're both great lights, the Surefire is definately worth the extra cash.
If you could afford it get both.

P.S you'll never have to worry about burnt out bulbs with these babies and yes they will last many,many years.


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## Axion (Dec 3, 2008)

I'm fighting the urge to buy an E2DL so I vote that way.


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## foxtrot29 (Dec 3, 2008)

Axion said:


> I'm fighting the urge to buy an E2DL so I vote that way.




Same. I have the E2D incan, and I love it (got the lumens factory 7.2v/150 lumen bulb in it).

But I want that E2DL badly... 120 lumens, and we all know that surefire far understates their lumen values.


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## hnoppenberger (Dec 3, 2008)

sounds like im sold on the ED2L.... again surefires right next to my house so if anything breaks im good to go.

i wonder if i can use the redfilters that i have for my e2e on the ed2l??

thanks for the welcome guys... im a regular at calguns.net and was refered by a guy who comes here.

im a mechanic that uses a light daily, and most weekends hunting/being outdoors.


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## MrBenchmark (Dec 3, 2008)

Amazing! I'm also considering both of these lights. I'm kind of leaning towards the Olight M20 Warrior Premium (what a mouthful) because:

1. I like the idea of 3 brightness levels
2. It looks pretty nicely made
3. The high output level will definitely let me see the critters in my yard (usually deer) when I'm walking to my observatory dome. 
4. The price for this light is terrific! (Although SF certainly makes very high quality lights, worth the premium).
5. I have five surefire lights already that I purchased several years ago, and maybe it's time to spread the love around? 

But maybe I'm not thinking this all the way through?

Oh, I used to post on here from time to time when I could still hike at night. I don't do that anymore, but the walk out to my observatory is DARK, so I still use lights. I thought I'd escaped flashaholism - but apparently that's not the case! So hi again!


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## hnoppenberger (Dec 3, 2008)

well hell, battery junction has free shipping and a box of free batterys i can use with my E2E incan. bulb light.....
and its a 1" bezel i can use my red filter for night hunting yotes and rabbit.
needless to say i just pulled the trigger on a E2DL.

again, thanks for the welcome and help guys!


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## MrGman (Dec 3, 2008)

After studying "The Sun" review of 6 lights which included these 2, the one I would add to my collection is the Olight M20 Warrior R2. It is definitely more powerful than the E2DL, has 3 modes so you can turn it down and save batteries and still cost less than the E2DL. The Olight M20 W R2 definitely throws further than the E2DL and still have more useful spill. It is a far superior tactical light.


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## hnoppenberger (Dec 3, 2008)

MrGman said:


> After studying "The Sun" review of 6 lights which included these 2, the one I would add to my collection is the Olight M20 Warrior R2. It is definitely more powerful than the E2DL, has 3 modes so you can turn it down and save batteries and still cost less than the E2DL. The Olight M20 W R2 definitely throws further than the E2DL and still have more useful spill. It is a far superior tactical light.


 

its far superior save for a few things.

e2dL
no questions asked fix policy at their store (1 mile away from home)
waterproof- tried and tested.
tried and tested mounted on firearms, sustained abuse aplications.

the o light is nice i just dont want to spend 100 bucks and have it break in a year or two. when the surefire will be replaced no problem.


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## 270winchester (Dec 3, 2008)

good call on the E2DL. if one were to even consider paying 100 for this "Olight" then a little more gives one a light that has two great output levels and a life time warranty. I have a few of the E2DLs and E1Bs and find no need for anything else.

Since you are so close to SF the Karma will come back and reward you.:twothumbs


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## 1996alnl (Dec 3, 2008)

hnoppenberger said:


> well hell, battery junction has free shipping and a box of free batterys i can use with my E2E incan. bulb light.....
> and its a 1" bezel i can use my red filter for night hunting yotes and rabbit.
> needless to say i just pulled the trigger on a E2DL.
> 
> again, thanks for the welcome and help guys!


 
Good choice:thumbsup:


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## cruisemissile (Dec 23, 2008)

good call on the SF. I just added an E2D incan and am going to get the KX2C head.


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## Outdoors Fanatic (Dec 23, 2008)

Go for the E2DL, it's a SureFire darnit...


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## seale_navy (Dec 23, 2008)

does the surefire ed2l produces 120 lumens for 1.9 hours? 

anyone has a runtime graph for the surefire ed2l? i couldnt find anything on CPF...


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## Sardaukar (Dec 24, 2008)

hnoppenberger said:


> thanks for the welcome guys... im a regular at calguns.net and was refered by a guy who comes here.



Another CGN member.  Both are expensive hobbies.


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## MattK (Dec 24, 2008)

hnoppenberger said:


> its far superior save for a few things.
> 
> e2dL
> no questions asked fix policy at their store (1 mile away from home)
> ...




FYI:
The M20 is IP-68 rated; dust proof and immersion tested at over 1M. Not a diving light but still quite 'waterproof.'
The M20 has been weapon-mount tested - 500 rounds on an AR15 IIRC.

It's been my experience that few lights simply 'break' in a year or two; most fail in the first few hours of use. Those that have a problem later invariably just need a switch replaced as the switch is the mechanical part most prone to failure - that goes for ANY brand of light.

These are two of my favorite lights - you simply cannot go wrong with either choice. 
The M20 is clearly brighter, less expensive and has more features; the E2DL is smaller, a Surefire and has an amazing warranty. In our IS testing we saw in excess of 160L on the E2DL we tested - the M20 Premium was ~215-220.

My .02.

Happy holidays!


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## Dangarand (Feb 21, 2009)

I have the E2DL already and I am looking at buying the m20 warrior premium R2.

I want the m20 warrior because of the reported 250lumen output and the strobe feature. 

I really would like to know how much brighter the m20 warrior is compared to the E2DL. I know surefire underrates their lights and was wondering if anyone who has both of them can give me a little info about the differences in brightness at full blast before I fork over the $100 bucks.

THANKS!


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## Dangarand (Feb 21, 2009)

Search function is great found my answers thank you.


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## Forgoten214 (Feb 22, 2009)

Pictures anyone? :-D . I like both these lights as well and don't know what I would like the best. Also what are some of the prices around for these lights?


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## deranged_coder (Feb 22, 2009)

Forgoten214 said:


> Pictures anyone? :-D . I like both these lights as well and don't know what I would like the best. Also what are some of the prices around for these lights?



I own both of these lights. I will try to post some side-by-side comparison photos of the two sometime tomorrow. I will say that the Olight is noticeably larger than the E2DL so if you are looking for something compact, then the E2DL will be the better deal.

As far as prices, the ED2L has an MSRP of $149. 4sevens has the Olight M20 Warrior Premium for $99.95 (if you order from them, make sure to use the CPF discount).


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## CdBoy (Feb 22, 2009)

just bought an E2D Led Defender last month. i already got E2D Defender. with LED plus the durability of the E2D nothing beats it hands down! 

go for the E2D LED Defender.

p.s. with the Crenalated Bezel (this is a good thing for self-defense). Surefire torches are built to last (read the testimonials from people of different walks of life.


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## mefistofele86 (Feb 22, 2009)

i bought an Olight M20 warrior premium few days ago.
It's really a great flashlight. I've got the smooth reflector too and with this reflector the throw became very very good!
M20 is brighter than my pd30 and the colour of cree R2 is warmer. I like it very much. It seems the light of sun XD

Finally i suggest the Olight because it's a great solution at a good price


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## maxilux (Feb 22, 2009)

When you want the most output take the M20, when you want a great name take the SF.


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## richardcpf (Feb 22, 2009)

foxtrot29 said:


> and we all know that surefire far understates their lumen values.


 


Dangarand said:


> I know surefire underrates their lights


 
SF don't underrate their lumen value. No manufacturer would do this, what kind of marketing strategy is that? Unlike other brands, SF states the OTF lumens and not bulb or torch tumens. And the typical beam of SF's are narrow, tigh spot, small flood area. The E2DL can throw farther than a 225 lumens flashlight, but that doesn't mean it is brighter.




maxilux said:


> When you want the most output take the M20, when you want a great name take the SF.


 
So true


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## Strauss (Feb 22, 2009)

I must have a factory freak E2DL. In bounce tests with my light meter to gauge overall output, my two brightest single-LED lights WERE my Malkoff M60 and Eagletac T10L. My newly recently aquired E2DL barley edges out both of them. I have tested this many times, even a few different ways and the Surefire always comes out on top. Going off my readings, my E2DL is putting out at least 200 lumens out the front! And from the brilliant white beam it blasts out, I believe it!


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## maxilux (Feb 22, 2009)

Strauss said:


> I must have a factory freak E2DL. In bounce tests with my light meter to gauge overall output, my two brightest single-LED lights WERE my Malkoff M60 and Eagletac T10L. My newly recently aquired E2DL barley edges out both of them. I have tested this many times, even a few different ways and the Surefire always comes out on top. Going off my readings, my E2DL is putting out at least 200 lumens out the front! And from the brilliant white beam it blasts out, I believe it!



You have a light meter, wich can measure Lumens ?


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## phantom23 (Feb 22, 2009)

He doesn't have one (probably), he does 'bounce' test which overrate lumens in focused lights. You can see it by naked eye - focused beam seems brighter than it really is (I can see it clearly with my LedLenser P7).


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## MrGman (Feb 22, 2009)

Strauss said:


> I must have a factory freak E2DL. In bounce tests with my light meter to gauge overall output, my two brightest single-LED lights WERE my Malkoff M60 and Eagletac T10L. My newly recently aquired E2DL barley edges out both of them. I have tested this many times, even a few different ways and the Surefire always comes out on top. Going off my readings, my E2DL is putting out at least 200 lumens out the front! And from the brilliant white beam it blasts out, I believe it!


 
This has been disputed so many times its ridiculous. You cannot measure lumens or accurately estimate lumens off of a ceiling bounce test for different type of beam pattern lights. There is a reason that Integration Sphere systems cost $10K and need calibration to take accurate lumens measurements. 

Your E2DL has a tight well focused beam, that doesn't make it 200 lumens because the hot spot looks brighter than known 200 plus lumens lights.

I just got one yesterday (finally) it will be in the Integration Sphere tomorrow morning and the truth will be revealed.


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## steveG (Feb 22, 2009)

MrGman, It'll be interesting to see if you get similar results.



MattK said:


> The E2DL is definitely a, 'hell of a light.
> While I agree that 120lm is under rated it's nowhere close to 200-240lm. We tested one in a calibrated integrating sphere and saw results in the 160's.
> The Fenix, Olight, LumaPower, etc tactical class lights are noticeably brighter and actually test at 200+lm.



EDIT: By the way, I love my E2DL. The only thing I don't like about it is the crenelated head.


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## MattK (Feb 22, 2009)

richardcpf said:


> SF The E2DL can throw farther than a 225 lumens flashlight, but that doesn't mean it is brighter.



The M20 will out-throw the E2DL by a considerable margin.



MrGman said:


> There is a reason that Integration Sphere systems cost $10K and need calibration to take accurate lumens measurements.



Let me know where one can get a good sphere for 10K - we've been shopping and you really need to spend $20K to get a good 10" with all the necessary paraphenalia. The calibration bulbs alone are $2K - insane.



steveG said:


> MrGman, It'll be interesting to see if you get similar results.
> EDIT: By the way, I love my E2DL. The only thing I don't like about it is the crenelated head.



Remember that the testing that we do, even with a calibrated sphere isn't statistically significant - we're usually only testing one sample of light and emitters, even in a single output bin, can vary in output ~5% or more.

I'd love to see an 'E2DL' in a non-crenelated design - fortunately we'll be seeing that in the LX2 uh eventually.


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## jac2001 (Feb 22, 2009)

MrGman said:


> This has been disputed so many times its ridiculous. You cannot measure lumens or accurately estimate lumens off of a ceiling bounce test for different type of beam pattern lights. There is a reason that Integration Sphere systems cost $10K and need calibration to take accurate lumens measurements.
> 
> Your E2DL has a tight well focused beam, that doesn't make it 200 lumens because the hot spot looks brighter than known 200 plus lumens lights.
> 
> I just got one yesterday (finally) it will be in the Integration Sphere tomorrow morning and the truth will be revealed.


 

I can't wait MrGman! Been waiting on this one!
I also believe the SF E2DL will not output 200 lumens, although I do not think it will be the factory rating of 120 lumens!! I had this light before I got my Malkoff M60, and seriously thought I had a bad drop-in from Gene at first! But as I played with them I realized that the Malkoff had a great deal more spill, not that the E2DL doesn't produce 'useable spill', and that out here in the country I had so much need of a light with this much spill!! The beam of the SF is impressive, but only a little spill, leaving the areas not directly in the path of the beam, very dark in comparison to the M60.

Also, check out this thread I found earlier today, it lists the E2DL on page one of the spreadsheet at 171 estimated lumens. 

https://www.candlepowerforums.com/posts/2846985

and his spreadsheet...

http://www.3500z.com/Misc/Lights/Integrating Cylinder Results.xls

Although, the official results won't be in until MrGman posts his results!!! Can't wait!!!!


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## steveG (Feb 22, 2009)

MattK said:


> I'd love to see an 'E2DL' in a non-crenelated design - fortunately we'll be seeing that in the LX2 uh eventually.



Exactly! I already emailed you about it! Do you know if the LX2 will have the same optics/beam as the E2DL?

Also, for those interested in the E2DL with no crenelations, take a look at this thread:

https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/221359


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## MattK (Feb 22, 2009)

I can't say if it's the same but it does use a similar looking TIR optic.

I'm at home today but it's likely I don't have any of the answers that I'm guessing you were looking for.


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## steveG (Feb 22, 2009)

I sent the email last week and yes, you didn't have the answers I was after... Ha! No worries. i'll be patient.

Back on topic...


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## pipspeak (Feb 22, 2009)

hnoppenberger said:


> its far superior save for a few things.
> 
> e2dL
> no questions asked fix policy at their store (1 mile away from home)
> ...


 
I was under the impression that the E2DL is NOT a great weapons light because of its well-documented ability to switch modes when dropped (in other words, not recoil-resistant). Unless this was fixed.


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## MattK (Feb 22, 2009)

Good point - I don't know if the E2DL is weapon mount tested either.


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## MrGman (Feb 22, 2009)

jac2001 said:


> I can't wait MrGman! Been waiting on this one!
> I also believe the SF E2DL will not output 200 lumens, although I do not think it will be the factory rating of 120 lumens!! I had this light before I got my Malkoff M60, and seriously thought I had a bad drop-in from Gene at first! But as I played with them I realized that the Malkoff had a great deal more spill, not that the E2DL doesn't produce 'useable spill', and that out here in the country I had so much need of a light with this much spill!! The beam of the SF is impressive, but only a little spill, leaving the areas not directly in the path of the beam, very dark in comparison to the M60.
> 
> Also, check out this thread I found earlier today, it lists the E2DL on page one of the spreadsheet at 171 estimated lumens.
> ...


 

Cannot take the integrating "cylinder" serious at all. Therefore can't take any of the readings serious either. Thanks for the laugh .

Should have real readings posted by 07:00 Monday morning if all goes well. Your observations about a lot of the Malkoff energy going into the spill that the E2DL doesn't have as to why there is a difference is correct. I have said it before different beam patterns are different beam patterns and cannot be used to determine lumen output of one to another. I have 200 lumen lights that put a nice bright spot in the middle of my 700 lumen output lights that are more flood. I don't assume that they must have been underestimated and are really 700 lumen spot lights. 

that's not to say that the E2DL is not a handy little light with a useful beam, it is nice, is it as useful as something with more of spread to the beam, I would say in most real world applications no, but in some applications yes. G


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## N/Apower (Feb 22, 2009)

MrGman said:


> Cannot take the integrating "cylinder" serious at all. Therefore can't take any of the readings serious either. Thanks for the laugh .
> 
> Should have real readings posted by 07:00 Monday morning if all goes well. Your observations about a lot of the Malkoff energy going into the spill that the E2DL doesn't have as to why there is a difference is correct. I have said it before different beam patterns are different beam patterns and cannot be used to determine lumen output of one to another. I have 200 lumen lights that put a nice bright spot in the middle of my 700 lumen output lights that are more flood. I don't assume that they must have been underestimated and are really 700 lumen spot lights.
> 
> that's not to say that the E2DL is not a handy little light with a useful beam, it is nice, is it as useful as something with more of spread to the beam, I would say in most real world applications no, but in some applications yes. G


 

I am betting output is in excess of 160L. Test it before calling BS on me


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## MrGman (Feb 22, 2009)

N/Apower said:


> I am betting output is in excess of 160L. Test it before calling BS on me


 

In order to be "betting" on it you have to put something on the line, otherwise its just an unsupported opinion with no cash to back up the bravado. Are you willing to donate the Gman flashlight testing fund if you are wrong????? ??? ??? ???


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## N/Apower (Feb 22, 2009)

MrGman said:


> In order to be "betting" on it you have to put something on the line, otherwise its just an unsupported opinion with no cash to back up the bravado. Are you willing to donate the Gman flashlight testing fund if you are wrong????? ??? ??? ???


 

Vltor SM-CK scout mount, NIB.
lightly used R2 Superbright "290L" P60 module sans outer-spring.
LNIB KAC VFG.
LNIB McGizmo clicky for E2DL/M600 (one of the "lighter" colored one's, not black)

Any of the 3 should be flipp-able for cash if you don't want them. Pick one and let me know what you bring to the table. 

If you want to up the ante (start talking PMAG's, Ammo, ect.) I have an LNIB pressure-switch from a Surefire M600A.


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## richardcpf (Feb 22, 2009)

MrGman said:


> Should have real readings posted by 07:00 Monday morning if all goes well.


 
All Lux vs. lumens confusions should be clarified then... 

No more 120lms>225lms threads! :twothumbs Can't wait for this.

Edit: Betting is wrong but hope you win.


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## N/Apower (Feb 22, 2009)

richardcpf said:


> All Lux vs. lumens confusions should be clarified then...
> 
> No more 120lms>225lms threads! :twothumbs Can't wait for this.
> 
> Edit: Betting is wrong but hope you win.


 
Betting is only wrong if you can't afford to lose.


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## Search (Feb 22, 2009)

Now wait a minute..

I thought the KX2C was basically a non strike bezel, single mode E2DL.

It's 120 lumens and TIR.

Is it different.. simple yes or no, I don't want to side track the thread but it was stated in another thread it was the same. Why would y'all want to wait on this new head?


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## N/Apower (Feb 22, 2009)

Search said:


> Now wait a minute..
> 
> I thought the KX2C was basically a non strike bezel, single mode E2DL.
> 
> ...


 
Your head is single-stage with less aggressive crenulations (sp*). That is the only diff. It has the same LED, same lense, same run-time as the E2DL on high. That is my interest in this thread is I have an M600 with a KX2C as well on my AR.


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## Strauss (Feb 22, 2009)

I realize my lightmeter doesn't give me 100% results using my bounce technique. It just seems that my E2DL is really bright for some reason. I fully understand how beam patterns affect how bright the light looks, but thats why I am here stating that my Surefire seems to be a freak. It's overall output is right on par with my other 200+ lumen lights.

I also know not every same model of light is made equal, and I'm willing to bet that I happened to get a good sample. I look forward to your readings, I know for sure that it is under-rated!


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## N/Apower (Feb 22, 2009)

Strauss said:


> I realize my lightmeter doesn't give me 100% results using my bounce technique. It just seems that my E2DL is really bright for some reason. I fully understand how beam patterns affect how bright the light looks, but thats why I am here stating that my Surefire seems to be a freak. It's overall output is right on par with my other 200+ lumen lights.
> 
> I also know not every same model of light is made equal, and I'm willing to bet that I happened to get a good sample. I look forward to your readings, I know for sure that it is under-rated!


 
I have it on good authority that it is around 160-185 lumens. I am only awaiting the confirmation of my offer/bet/see what G has to put up, which expires at 0300hrs CST.


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## Search (Feb 22, 2009)

N/Apower said:


> Your head is single-stage with less aggressive crenulations (sp*). That is the only diff. It has the same LED, same lense, same run-time as the E2DL on high. That is my interest in this thread is I have an M600 with a KX2C as well on my AR.



10-4 on that. I was confused for a minute and didn't know why.


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## deranged_coder (Feb 22, 2009)

Some side-by-side comparison pics of the Surefire E2DL and Olight M20 Warrior Premium:


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## MrGman (Feb 23, 2009)

Strauss said:


> I realize my lightmeter doesn't give me 100% results using my bounce technique. It just seems that my E2DL is really bright for some reason. I fully understand how beam patterns affect how bright the light looks, but thats why I am here stating that my Surefire seems to be a freak. It's overall output is right on par with my other 200+ lumen lights.
> 
> I also know not every same model of light is made equal, and I'm willing to bet that I happened to get a good sample. I look forward to your readings, I know for sure that it is under-rated!


 

If you have an ammeter that is any good measure how much current your E2DL unit draws in high mode from 2 fresh primary batteries. Mine draws 0.80 amps and its main beam is brighter than the hot spot of my 266 lumens EagleTac T10C2 but that doesn't mean its more lumens.


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## asdalton (Feb 23, 2009)

MrGman said:


> This has been disputed so many times its ridiculous. You cannot measure lumens or accurately estimate lumens off of a ceiling bounce test for different type of beam pattern lights. There is a reason that Integration Sphere systems cost $10K and need calibration to take accurate lumens measurements.
> 
> Your E2DL has a tight well focused beam, that doesn't make it 200 lumens because the hot spot looks brighter than known 200 plus lumens lights.



_Nobody_ is saying that the E2DL is brighter than 120 lumens simply because it is tightly focused. That is a straw man argument.

I've done the ceiling bounce test with variable-focus lights, and the hotspot intensity is IRRELEVANT to how well the diffuse reflected light illuminates the room. That's the whole point of bouncing the beam off a diffuse white surface.


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## MarshallManiac (Feb 23, 2009)

How about some beamshots too?


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## MarshallManiac (Feb 23, 2009)

Strauss said:


> I realize my lightmeter doesn't give me 100% results using my bounce technique. It just seems that my E2DL is really bright for some reason. I fully understand how beam patterns affect how bright the light looks, but thats why I am here stating that my Surefire seems to be a freak. It's overall output is right on par with my other 200+ lumen lights.


 
I guess that I have a "good one" as well because my E2DL is brighter than both of my M60's ! :huh:


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## N/Apower (Feb 23, 2009)

MrGman said:


> If you have an ammeter that is any good measure how much current your E2DL unit draws in high mode from 2 fresh primary batteries. Mine draws 0.80 amps and its main beam is brighter than the hot spot of my 266 lumens EagleTac T10C2 but that doesn't mean its more lumens.


 

Lets look at the facts.

E2DL/KX2C:

.80A draw
1.5 hour run-time
Cree XR-E binned LED
Very high-quality/efficiency optics (TIR).
Lumens:"Unverified" (for now)

Malkoff M60:

.86A draw
Minimum 90 minute run-time
Cree Q5 LED
Cree Optics
Lumens: Verified 220-240L 

Now, why would you presume that the Surefire is only 1/2 as bright given those facts? Do you think that the XR-E powered in the Surefire light is managed 100% less effectively than the one in the Malkoff. I think the IS results will be suprising to some.

I am more than happy with a gentelman's wager and the right to say "TOLD YA!" going to whoever is correct :twothumbs


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## MrGman (Feb 23, 2009)

asdalton said:


> _Nobody_ is saying that the E2DL is brighter than 120 lumens simply because it is tightly focused. That is a straw man argument.
> 
> I've done the ceiling bounce test with variable-focus lights, and the hotspot intensity is IRRELEVANT to how well the diffuse reflected light illuminates the room. That's the whole point of bouncing the beam off a diffuse white surface.


 

Well I guess I will be the first to know in the morning if there is any straw in the man. In the meantime would still like to know the current draw from this high power E2DL that is freakishly brighter than normal. G


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## N/Apower (Feb 23, 2009)

MrGman said:


> Well I guess I will be the first to know in the morning if there is any straw in the man. In the meantime would still like to know the current draw from this high power E2DL that is freakishly brighter than normal. G


 
I think that the beam-pattern makes it look brighter than it really is, but the IS numbers Mr.Gman gets are going to suprise him. At least I hope they do, we just E-shook on a 1-dozen Surefire CR123A wager


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## deranged_coder (Feb 23, 2009)

Getting back to the original topic, here are a few more photos.

Disclaimer: My camera is a basic point-and-shoot type with no way to lock settings so all of these are taken with the camera going ahead and automatically selecting aperture, shutter speed, white balance, etc. This is one sample of an Olight M20 Warrior Premium R2 and one sample of a Surefire E2D LED Defender so these beamshots are not necessarily be representative of the performance of other M20s and E2DLs.


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## N/Apower (Feb 23, 2009)

deranged_coder said:


> Getting back to the original topic, here are a few more photos.
> 
> Disclaimer: My camera is a basic point-and-shoot type with no way to lock settings so all of these are taken with the camera going ahead and automatically selecting aperture, shutter speed, white balance, etc. This is one sample of an Olight M20 Warrior Premium R2 and one sample of a Surefire E2D LED Defender so these beamshots are not necessarily be representative of the performance of other M20s and E2DLs.


 

AWESOME! Is there any way we can get an out-door comparison at 100' or something?


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## Forgoten214 (Feb 23, 2009)

Does anyone pocket carry the E2DL? Do they have problems with the bezel creating holes or damaging products in there pockets?


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## Search (Feb 23, 2009)

Forgoten214 said:


> Does anyone pocket carry the E2DL? Do they have problems with the bezel creating holes or damaging products in there pockets?



Do a quick search. There was a pretty big thread about this a couple of weeks ago. 

I think the general idea was it isn't going to tear a hole.

I personally don't see how, they aren't exactly sharp.


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## jac2001 (Feb 23, 2009)

Forgoten214 said:


> Does anyone pocket carry the E2DL? Do they have problems with the bezel creating holes or damaging products in there pockets?


 
I carry mine daily, usually in the lower right hand pocket of my jeans, for backup to my SF C2 /Malkoff M60 for EDC. But the crenalations do not cause issue for me or my clothing. Not even before I got the Malkoff when I carried it in the left front.


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## nohcho (Feb 23, 2009)

I wonder if Sirefire can pitch in on this matter. I am not sure if surefire "underestimates" lumens across the board, E2DL might be an exception. For instance P60L module is rated at 80 lumens and it looks about right. That said E2DL is bright as hell, on par with M30, however M30 has i little more spill.


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## MrGman (Feb 23, 2009)

I measured my new E2DL just a few minutes ago. and the big news is


 210 lumens at turn on and still 203 lumens after a full minute plus warm up, on high. 

8.1 lumens on low. 

That's going to make a lot of SureFire Believers very happy I guess. I can't say that I blame them. It is what it is. 

I was shocked to see it but since I own it I can't complain. 

I lost a small gentlemanly wager over this one  so its literally costing me to publish the truth (not that I wouldn't) Just goes further to the shock factor. Its far better than advertised at 120 lumens. I am guessing that E2DL sales are going to go up, since it is in the 200 lumen class. More power to them. Time for breakfast.


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## Mike D (Feb 23, 2009)

Wow very impressive!

What I cant figure out is why they would underestimate the output so much??


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## MattK (Feb 23, 2009)

Wow - that's a lot higher than the 160 we saw. I wonder if sphere size is playing a factor or if it's just batch/emitter/component variation.


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## deranged_coder (Feb 23, 2009)

MrGman said:


> I measured my new E2DL just a few minutes ago. and the big news is
> 
> 
> 210 lumens at turn on and still 203 lumens after a full minute plus warm up, on high.
> ...



   

Thanks for doing the testing and publishing the results. Awesome work! :thumbsup:


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## steveG (Feb 23, 2009)

Forgoten214 said:


> Does anyone pocket carry the E2DL? Do they have problems with the bezel creating holes or damaging products in there pockets?



It depends on which pocket you carry it in. If you keep it in one of your back pockets and sit regularly it will absolutely tear a hole in your pocket (it did mine). If you carry it in your front pocket or cargo pants lower pocket then it's not likely.

I've been carrying my E1L or 6P in my back pocket for months with no issues. It only took a few days for my E2DL to poke through.


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## Strauss (Feb 23, 2009)

MrGman said:


> I measured my new E2DL just a few minutes ago. and the big news is
> 
> 
> 210 lumens at turn on and still 203 lumens after a full minute plus warm up, on high.
> ...


 
Nice work MrGman! I have used the same light-meter set-up for over 2 years now and have found a calculation that gives me appx lumens. I KNOW that it isn't 100%, but it works in giving me a ballpark estimate. I must say it always seems to end up at least 90% correct compared with others proper findings. 

I am an experienced CPF'r and know how to distinguish brightness. When I posted on here saying that my E2DL was at least 200 lumens, I meant it. I am not upset in any way over this, just wanted to let you know that "sometimes" I know what I'm talkin about  

Once again, thanks for all your efforts with your IS. It puts to rest all these "claims" that people like me make. Your results give us 100% results, and I appreciate that very much. You da man....da Gman! :thumbsup:


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## Strauss (Feb 23, 2009)

MattK said:


> Wow - that's a lot higher than the 160 we saw. I wonder if sphere size is playing a factor or if it's just batch/emitter/component variation.


 

I'd be willing to bet it's just batch/emitter/component variation. When I bought my E2DL, I tested a few others the store had in stock. The one I went home with was noticably brighter than the others and also had the best tint. So if the brightness was enough for me to notice in a side-by-side comparo, I'd say there could be up to a 50 lumens variance....after all they are only rated for 120L


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## N/Apower (Feb 23, 2009)

MrGman said:


> I measured my new E2DL just a few minutes ago. and the big news is
> 
> 
> 210 lumens at turn on and still 203 lumens after a full minute plus warm up, on high.
> ...


 
Good stuff, but the victory is a hollow one as I knew this would happen. In that line of thought, I am offering that instead of sending me 12 Surefire CR123A's, I will send MrGman MY M600C so that he can test it as long as he return-ships it as per my PM to him. If he is willing to change the wager after the fact, we will have results from 2 of these "illumination tools". (This alteration to the wager will monetarily cost less for MrGman than the 12 Surefire's, should he choose to accept).


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## MrGman (Feb 23, 2009)

MattK said:


> Wow - that's a lot higher than the 160 we saw. I wonder if sphere size is playing a factor or if it's just batch/emitter/component variation.


 

We have two 6 inch spheres that we use. I have talked to my Optical Engineering friend about this several times including this morning. It normally comes down to the size of the reflector or optic head and output. Larger heads with light coming out from larger diameter source need to be integrated through a bigger sphere. That is why the 6 inch sphere onlycomes with a 1.5 inch opening and the 12 inch sphere has about a 3 inch opening and bigger spheres have bigger openings. And then each has to be calibrated. My friend is a PhD and has tested many light sources himself and believes that for what we are doing with LED's that this should be as accurate as its going to get. 

What were your measurements taken on?


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## MrGman (Feb 23, 2009)

Strauss said:


> Nice work MrGman! I have used the same light-meter set-up for over 2 years now and have found a calculation that gives me appx lumens. I KNOW that it isn't 100%, but it works in giving me a ballpark estimate. I must say it always seems to end up at least 90% correct compared with others proper findings.
> 
> I am an experienced CPF'r and know how to distinguish brightness. When I posted on here saying that my E2DL was at least 200 lumens, I meant it. I am not upset in any way over this, just wanted to let you know that "sometimes" I know what I'm talkin about
> 
> Once again, thanks for all your efforts with your IS. It puts to rest all these "claims" that people like me make. Your results give us 100% results, and I appreciate that very much. You da man....da Gman! :thumbsup:


 

Well you made me a believer. I saw so little brightness in the spill that I thought that is where the difference is. That's why I love just having the sphere of truth. It even sets ME straight. G :thumbsup:


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## N/Apower (Feb 23, 2009)

MrGman said:


> Well you made me a believer. I saw so little brightness in the spill that I thought that is where the difference is. That's why I love just having the sphere of truth. It even sets ME straight. G :thumbsup:


 

A lot of people thought how you did G.

THen again, my application is vastly different than most people and that allowed me to see the true output of this light. Many people use it up close. I use it to throw a (relatively) HUGE hot-spot down-range almost 100 yards. My Malkoff M60 wouldn't do it, neither would any other light this size that is weapon-mountable. The hotspot on this thing is massive, and has enough lumens in it to punch down range like a freight train. That is why I love it so much.

The F04 beam diffuser that fits the E2DL also fits the M600C, I guess that means 1.0" bezel size?

ETA: Within the week we should have info on the KX2C head to see if this E2DL was a freak or not. *In the mail*


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## MattK (Feb 23, 2009)

MrGman said:


> We have two 6 inch spheres that we use. I have talked to my Optical Engineering friend about this several times including this morning. It normally comes down to the size of the reflector or optic head and output. Larger heads with light coming out from larger diameter source need to be integrated through a bigger sphere. That is why the 6 inch sphere onlycomes with a 1.5 inch opening and the 12 inch sphere has about a 3 inch opening and bigger spheres have bigger openings. And then each has to be calibrated. My friend is a PhD and has tested many light sources himself and believes that for what we are doing with LED's that this should be as accurate as its going to get.
> 
> What were your measurements taken on?



Interesting - guess circuit/emitter batch variation must account then for the large difference in results given that we saw ~160L.

We tested with:
10" Labsphere Flash Lamp Measurement System:
10” Flash Lamp Measurement Sphere
CDS 600, CCD based Spectrometer
External Forward Flux ???
LPS-100, Preset power supply


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## neilki (Feb 23, 2009)

How does the 120L L4 compare with the E2Dl?


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## MattK (Feb 23, 2009)

The 120L L4's just started shipping last week so I don't imagine anyone has had a chance to test one yet.


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## deranged_coder (Feb 24, 2009)

N/Apower said:


> AWESOME! Is there any way we can get an out-door comparison at 100' or something?



My best attempt at getting some outdoor beamshots. Same disclaimer applies; my camera is a basic point and shoot, all beamshots were taken with the camera automatically adjusting white balance, aperture setting, speed, etc.
































I took these photos behind my office building earlier, just before I headed home. I did not have the smooth reflector for the Olight with me so the photos with the textured reflector are all I have.


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## DHart (Feb 24, 2009)

deranged... it appears from the images that your SF has a comparable brightness overall and a bit broader beam than the M20... but unfortunately, the auto setting on the camera will compensate for brightness differences between the lights, making the comparison inaccurate for judging relative illumination levels.


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## deranged_coder (Feb 24, 2009)

DHart said:


> deranged... it appears from the images that your SF has a comparable brightness overall and a bit broader beam than the M20... but unfortunately, the auto setting on the camera will compensate for brightness differences between the lights, making the comparison inaccurate for judging relative illumination levels.



Quite true, which is why I posted that disclaimer. Sadly, that is all my simple point-and-shoot camera can manage. Maybe I can do some side-by-side outdoor shots sometime in the future so relative illumination levels can be compared. But, as you pointed out, at least you can still see the differences in the beam profiles.


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## N/Apower (Feb 24, 2009)

deranged_coder said:


> Quite true, which is why I posted that disclaimer. Sadly, that is all my simple point-and-shoot camera can manage. Maybe I can do some side-by-side outdoor shots sometime in the future so relative illumination levels can be compared. But, as you pointed out, at least you can still see the differences in the beam profiles.


 
That is why I love my M600C so much. Tonnes of throw, but it doesn't have this pencil thin beam that most SMO reflectored lights have. IT is a useful weapon's light for shooting at something that might be moving (and would quickly be lost from illumination at 80 yards as it scurried out of the beam.) That is why I run this instead of my 6P with Dereelight 1.2A Q35A pill. Great color and throw on that one, the beam just to narrow.


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## Forgoten214 (Feb 24, 2009)

Oh ok. Yeah I was considering getting one of these if I can use 3.7 rechargeables such as the AWs. Also being able to carry it in my front right pocket. I was concerned with if it will damage my clothing or items. Does the E2DL also take 18650s?


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## deranged_coder (Feb 24, 2009)

Forgoten214 said:


> Oh ok. Yeah I was considering getting one of these if I can use 3.7 rechargeables such as the AWs. Also being able to carry it in my front right pocket. I was concerned with if it will damage my clothing or items. Does the E2DL also take 18650s?



CR123 batteries are a fairly snug fit in the E2DL. I have not tried putting an 18650 cell in there but I kinda doubt it will fit. :shrug: 

Will test it later when I get the chance, just to be sure. 

EDIT: Tried it and an 18650 will definitely not fit into the E2DL.


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## herrgurka (Feb 24, 2009)

deranged_coder said:


> CR123 batteries are a fairly snug fit in the E2DL. I have not tried putting an 18650 cell in there but I kinda doubt it will fit. :shrug:
> 
> Will test it later when I get the chance, just to be sure.



Mine doesn't even take an 17670 (AW, protected). At least not all the way because the body is narrowing towards the tail. Maybe an unprotected would work but I don't use them any more so I can't check.


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## Mdinana (Feb 24, 2009)

MattK said:


> FYI:
> The M20 is IP-68 rated; dust proof and immersion tested at over 1M. Not a diving light but still quite 'waterproof.'
> The M20 has been weapon-mount tested - 500 rounds on an AR15 IIRC.


 

Weapon testing on an AR15! Ha... that was good.

OK, yeah, it's a weapon. But not exactly a measure of robustness. The kick of an AR... well... I've been hit harder by bugs riding a bicycle. Seriously, that's like saying you weapon tested on an air rifle - there's not much recoil to contend with (though I'm happy to see it was an impressive number of rounds).

Now something in the .30 caliber ranger or higher would impress me more. Anyone know if that's been done?


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## N/Apower (Feb 24, 2009)

Mdinana said:


> Weapon testing on an AR15! Ha... that was good.
> 
> OK, yeah, it's a weapon. But not exactly a measure of robustness. The kick of an AR... well... I've been hit harder by bugs riding a bicycle. Seriously, that's like saying you weapon tested on an air rifle - there's not much recoil to contend with (though I'm happy to see it was an impressive number of rounds).
> 
> Now something in the .30 caliber ranger or higher would impress me more. Anyone know if that's been done?


 

Run it on a shotgun before you call it G2G. That is my standard anyways.

FYI, the recoil impulse of an air-rifle will tear stuff UP! when it comes to optics.


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## MattK (Feb 24, 2009)

Mdinana said:


> Now something in the .30 caliber ranger or higher would impress me more. Anyone know if that's been done?



You supply the gun and ammo - I'll send a light and batteries for T & E.


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## N/Apower (Feb 24, 2009)

MattK said:


> You supply the gun and ammo - I'll send a light and batteries for T & E.


 
Dad has an AR in .300 SAUM, would that do 

Seriously though, when he gets a rail system put on his AR-10 .308 carbine, it will be a good T&E platform.


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## 1996alnl (Feb 25, 2009)

MrGman said:


> I measured my new E2DL just a few minutes ago. and the big news is
> 
> 
> 210 lumens at turn on and still 203 lumens after a full minute plus warm up, on high.
> ...


 
Thanks for doing this MrGman.
Just goes to show you,you can't compare SF claimed lumens with other manufacturers.
You can only compare their lights WITH their lights.

Over 200 lumens..amazing.
Not surprised just very impressed. When i first bought my E2DL i went downstairs to my basement in total darkness and when i turned this light on i was simply blown away.
I thought holyf#%k this thing must be putting out a good 200 lumens.:devil:
I know SF lights are overpriced but damn they are top notch.
Thanks for the confirmation,enjoy your light.


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## auxcoastie (Feb 25, 2009)

I would say go with the Surefire. You live close so convince plays a factor. Not to mention the guarantee.


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## Search (Feb 25, 2009)

Mdinana said:


> Weapon testing on an AR15! Ha... that was good.
> 
> OK, yeah, it's a weapon. But not exactly a measure of robustness. The kick of an AR... well... I've been hit harder by bugs riding a bicycle. Seriously, that's like saying you weapon tested on an air rifle - there's not much recoil to contend with (though I'm happy to see it was an impressive number of rounds).
> 
> Now something in the .30 caliber ranger or higher would impress me more. Anyone know if that's been done?



You even fired an AR?

If it works on the gun you want it to work on, then who really cares..


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## gsxrac (Feb 26, 2009)

Ok well I love the output and throw of my M20 but HATE having that huge head in my pocket while im riding my streetbike. I think im going to go ahead and get the e2dl. Any way I will be able to find out who has this ~200lm anomaly so I can get that one?


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## N/Apower (Feb 26, 2009)

gsxrac said:


> Ok well I love the output and throw of my M20 but HATE having that huge head in my pocket while im riding my streetbike. I think im going to go ahead and get the e2dl. Any way I will be able to find out who has this ~200lm anomaly so I can get that one?


 
Who says it's an anomoly? Mine will be tested in a day or two and we can see if it backs up MrGman's personal E2DL.


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## DHart (Feb 26, 2009)

I'm sure the E2DL is an awesome light. I do love Surefire's stuff. Which one of these two edges out the other in max output is totally unimportant to me. Obviously, either one is plenty bright for the class and both are good quality lights.

Not that my opinion carries a lot of weight around here, but honestly, if the comparison between the E2DL and the M20 is even remotely close, then the M20's ability to use an 18650 or (is it possible?) two RCR123's? makes all the difference between the two in my view. I'm just one of those who doesn't feel all that warm and fuzzy about running two primaries together, even though I know that they are "relatively" safe if very-well-matched to each other and of top-grade quality. I just happen to prefer using rechargeables for the most part, when possible. Among stock-configuration Surefires, I much prefer the single-cell models.  All of my EDC lights are single-cell, so I'm not a huge two-cell fan. My JetBeam III-M (awesome light!) runs on an AW 18650.


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## gsxrac (Feb 26, 2009)

I thought a few people were saying earlier that they got the "good version" or that their light was not as bright as others e2dl's? Hopefully theyre all in the 200lm range though =) Either way im sold. Ive been carrying my M20 every day for months but this may just be my new primary EDC!!!


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## MrGman (Feb 26, 2009)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d1MGK4KD_VU

The Surefire E2DL versus a Dereelight R2 with smooth reflector in a Solarforce Host using an AR coated lens. Looking at human sized targets at about 53 feet away but the camera is only about 38 feet away from the targets. Dynamic video rather than still beamshots. The camera is setting auto exposure in movie camera mode. I could see the non illuminated target a little better with the Dereelight in a reflector over the E2DL, much better than what the camera shows.

The point is that even at only 53 feet away (not yards) both beams are large enough to see a man size target, just not multiple targets if they are not close together.

Everything has a trade off. More top secret videos to be posted another day. G.


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## N/Apower (Feb 26, 2009)

MrGman said:


> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d1MGK4KD_VU
> 
> The Surefire E2DL versus a Dereelight R2 with smooth reflector in a Solarforce Host using an AR coated lens. Looking at human sized targets at about 53 feet away but the camera is only about 38 feet away from the targets. Dynamic video rather than still beamshots. The camera is setting auto exposure in movie camera mode. I could see the non illuminated target a little better with the Dereelight in a reflector over the E2DL, much better than what the camera shows.
> 
> ...


 
My M600C should be there today or tomorrow 

Out at 75-100 yards the Dereelight punches a little deeper, but gives me bad tunnel-vision for weapon-use. Compare it to the E2DL at 75-100y and you will see what I mean. For static targets, I would pick the SMO R2 every time, but for a dynamic environment, (like hunting pigs  ) I prefer the M600C's beam profile and to sacrifice a wee bit of throw. My ACOG sucks up enough light to extend the usefulness of the beam by about 15-25 yards beyond what you can see with the naked eye.


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## N/Apower (Feb 26, 2009)

DHart said:


> I'm sure the E2DL is an awesome light. I do love Surefire's stuff. Which one of these two edges out the other in max output is totally unimportant to me. Obviously, either one is plenty bright for the class and both are good quality lights.
> 
> Not that my opinion carries a lot of weight around here, but honestly, if the comparison between the E2DL and the M20 is even remotely close, then the M20's ability to use an 18650 or (is it possible?) two RCR123's? makes all the difference between the two in my view. I'm just one of those who doesn't feel all that warm and fuzzy about running two primaries together, even though I know that they are "relatively" safe if very-well-matched to each other and of top-grade quality. I just happen to prefer using rechargeables for the most part, when possible. Among stock-configuration Surefires, I much prefer the single-cell models.  All of my EDC lights are single-cell, so I'm not a huge two-cell fan. My JetBeam III-M (awesome light!) runs on an AW 18650.


 

I feel just fine using 2 primaries. I use only Surefire/Panasonic, and once I put batteries in a light, they stay togather. Period. Until they are disposed of. The US military has fielded thousands of light systems using 2 primaries and there has yet to be an epidemic of issues. I feel quite safe here. I use the M600C so rarely that 12 batteries to last 6 months is just fine with me. I pay way more to enjoy my 91+ octane swilling WS6 than I do my flashlight. Hobbies cost, sadly


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## deranged_coder (Feb 26, 2009)

DHart said:


> I'm sure the E2DL is an awesome light. I do love Surefire's stuff. Which one of these two edges out the other in max output is totally unimportant to me. Obviously, either one is plenty bright for the class and both are good quality lights.
> 
> Not that my opinion carries a lot of weight around here, but honestly, if the comparison between the E2DL and the M20 is even remotely close, then the M20's ability to use an 18650 or (is it possible?) two RCR123's? makes all the difference between the two in my view. I'm just one of those who doesn't feel all that warm and fuzzy about running two primaries together, even though I know that they are "relatively" safe if very-well-matched to each other and of top-grade quality. I just happen to prefer using rechargeables for the most part, when possible. Among stock-configuration Surefires, I much prefer the single-cell models.  All of my EDC lights are single-cell, so I'm not a huge two-cell fan. My JetBeam III-M (awesome light!) runs on an AW 18650.



First off, I think everyone is welcome to share their opinions, as long as they are presented in a respectful, constructive manner. Kudos to you for presenting your opinion and explaining your reasoning in a nice manner. 

IIRC the M20 can take 2xRCR123 but I am not 100% sure.

I think what is the "winner" in this comparison really depends on what is important to you. To present an alternative opinion, I personally find the E2DL to be big winner compared to the Olight M20 Warrior Premium R2. The reason why is because while having the ability to run on an 18650 is IMHO nice, that is not high on what makes me want to EDC a light. I personally find the E2DL to be the better choice because for me the more compact size of the E2DL makes it much easier to EDC. That and the fact that the E2DL coupled with the F04 diffuser effectively gives me a 4-in-1: high output throw, low output throw, high output flood and low output flood. So for me, I find the E2DL to be the better choice in terms of size and flexibility.

Now, this is not meant in any way to discredit your opinion. I doubt my opinion carries any more weight than anyone else's around here. Just respectfully presenting an alternative opinion. Both are great lights but if I had to pick one over the other to EDC then the E2DL + F04 diffuser is my own personal pick between the two.


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## MrGman (Feb 26, 2009)

I tested N/A Power's M600C scout. its posted in my Lumens table listing. Peak reading at turn on was 171 lumens, warmed up to 165 lumens. With his diffuser on, its 148 lumens. With his diffuser on my unit warmed up it was 181 lumens. His unit's tint is bluer when placed side by side with mine. Still well above the "rated" 120 lumens by Sure Fire.

It is what it is. G


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## Size15's (Feb 26, 2009)

It would seem a good idea to test a few more examples to see whether one is an over-performer, or the other is an under-performer. Or in fact whether these two are representative of the range and the 'normal' performance output is somewhere between the two.


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## DHart (Feb 26, 2009)

deranged_coder said:


> First off, I think everyone is welcome to share their opinions, as long as they are presented in a respectful, constructive manner. Kudos to you for presenting your opinion and explaining your reasoning in a nice manner.
> 
> IIRC the M20 can take 2xRCR123 but I am not 100% sure.
> 
> ...



deranged... this is what's great... the choice depends on the individual's particular use. I'm with you on choosing the E2DL over the M20 ~if~ I wanted the light for EDC. The smaller form factor makes it more comfortable to do. (BTW, I don't EDC my Jet III M because of it's size). Some prefer a 2-cell for EDC and I don't think there's a thing wrong with that if that's what someone prefers. I just happen to prefer single cell for EDC myself. And one of my top favorite lights happens to be the E2DL's little brother.... the E1B. For my needs and preferences, the E1B is among the two or three very best lights Surefire makes. And I sure wouldn't mind having the E2DL to complement it, though I'm not a big fan of the crenelated bezel ring - I'd probably switch that out if I were to buy an E2DL.

If the Jet III M were added to the selection to choose from (which makes sense to me), I'd personally opt for the Jet III M because of it's IBS and wide range of cell options. In fact, I already did! 

As for the hazards of running a light with two primaries, I'm not completely opposed to using them... I know that if the cells are very well matched and of high quality that the risk is relatively low, though it is there. For me, given the choice of a light which is able to run on two CR123's ~or~ two RCR's, I'll use the rechargeables for all daily use and only go to primaries for situations where they will serve better (away from a charger/long run times necessary). Thankfully, some light manufacturers are specing their two-cell lights to be able to take 6 to 8.4v and good on them for that!


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## DHart (Feb 26, 2009)

The OP has already made his choice by going with an E2DL (which I think is a great choice... they both are.)

BUT for others who might be looking for such a light, I think adding the Jet III M to this comparison makes a lot of sense. It's in the same general league as the E2DL and M20 and as such is another superb light that one might want to consider in such a comparison.

Though I didn't buy my Jet III M to be my EDC carry light (I prefer 1-cells for EDC), I bought it for these reasons:

The Jet III-M meets the needs of an emergency preparedness, home use, RV use, car-light, camp-light, or military use exceptionally well.. with the 200 hour runtime, 225 lumens, IBS, super low-low output, great UI, signaling, sos, ability to tailstand, durability, and especially the wide voltage range (designed for range of 2.7v to 15v) ability to use 2 CR123 primaries ~or~ 2 RCR rechargeables ~or~ an 18650 ~or~ 17670, great throw, good useable spill, nice warm color emitter (very incan looking color), choice of several different reflector finish options (SMO, OP, HYBRID), etc. There is a lot to like about the Jet III M! I happen to use an 18650 in mine most of the time, but really value the ability to run it with so many different cell options.


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## N/Apower (Feb 26, 2009)

MrGman said:


> I tested N/A Power's M600C scout. its posted in my Lumens table listing. Peak reading at turn on was 171 lumens, warmed up to 165 lumens. With his diffuser on, its 148 lumens. With his diffuser on my unit warmed up it was 181 lumens. His unit's tint is bluer when placed side by side with mine. Still well above the "rated" 120 lumens by Sure Fire.
> 
> It is what it is. G


 
*tear*

Oh well, still above 160L 

THANKS G!

ETA: This paralells what Mike got out of the E2DL within a few lumens, I am thinking you have a freak.

ETA: any chance you did/could measure the current on mine?


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## 270winchester (Feb 26, 2009)

my E2DL runs on 2 3.2v R123s just fine.


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## DHart (Feb 26, 2009)

270winchester said:


> my E2DL runs on 2 3.2v R123s just fine.



Have you tried two 3.7v (4.2v off charger) cells in the E2DL. Just a guess that it might run fine, but I have no idea how it might adversely affect the emitter or the driver.


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## 270winchester (Feb 26, 2009)

no. People say that htey use it but I'm using the 3.2v ones. The runtime is a little shorter but I recharge them every other day so I always have at least 30-40 minutes of high available. Worst case senario is I bring two spares which is no big deal with smalls cells like the CR123s.



DHart said:


> Have you tried two 3.7v (4.2v off charger) cells in the E2DL. Just a guess that it might run fine, but I have no idea how it might adversely affect the emitter or the driver.


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## MrGman (Feb 26, 2009)

N/Apower said:


> *tear*
> 
> Oh well, still above 160L
> 
> ...


 

I was going to measure the current but I thought you would like to know how thick the hard anodized coating was first so I cross sectioned the tube and took some sample readings on the metallograph. Is 5 mils okay? 

Yours draws the exact same number mine does using the meter at work of 0.85 amps. So my Emitter appears to be a little more efficient than yours. The luck of the draw, errr, so to speak.


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## 1996alnl (Feb 26, 2009)

DHart said:


> Have you tried two 3.7v (4.2v off charger) cells in the E2DL. Just a guess that it might run fine, but I have no idea how it might adversely affect the emitter or the driver.


 
I use AW 3.7V RCR123's in my E2DL with no problems.
Same brightness as primaries and 100% table flat regulation.
Runtimes are about 40 min or so on high. I always have to make sure i have a spare set of batteries in my pocket because there's hardly any dimming when the batteries low,it just "hits a wall and shuts off"

Of all the lights i own this one is one of the most potent for its size.
This thread has made me appreciate it more.


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## DHart (Feb 26, 2009)

1996alnl said:


> I use AW 3.7V RCR123's in my E2DL with no problems.
> Same brightness as primaries and 100% table flat regulation.
> Runtimes are about 40 min or so on high. I always have to make sure i have a spare set of batteries in my pocket because there's hardly any dimming when the batteries low,it just "hits a wall and shuts off"
> 
> ...



1996alnl.... that's awesome and good to hear! Gives the E2DL a big bonus point in my view! 

I have a feeling that a number of Surefires can be safely and effectively run with 3.7v rechargeables, though getting any sort of "official" confirmation on that is next to impossible. I have run my L1 on a 3.7v (4.2 off the charger) several times (though I don't do it as a practice) with no apparent ill effect. (Not to say that the led or the driver isn't suffering a bit.... I really have no idea.)


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## 1996alnl (Feb 27, 2009)

DHart said:


> I have run my L1 on a 3.7v (4.2 off the charger) several times (though I don't do it as a practice) with no apparent ill effect. (Not to say that the led or the driver isn't suffering a bit.... I really have no idea.)


 
I bought my L1 last June,i only used the Sf batteries that came with the light,since then i've used RCR's in it.
i'd say a good 60+ cycles now.
It's still 30% brighter than with primaries.
Enjoy the light don't worry about it.


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## MarshallManiac (Feb 27, 2009)

That's good to know, since I was wondering the same thing.


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## DHart (Feb 27, 2009)

1996alnl said:


> I bought my L1 last June,i only used the Sf batteries that came with the light,since then i've used RCR's in it.
> i'd say a good 60+ cycles now.
> It's still 30% brighter than with primaries.
> Enjoy the light don't worry about it.



That's how I've been thinking about it lately. Enjoy, my friend!


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## MrGman (Mar 2, 2009)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-YXTKvi_oEo

quick video of the SureFire E2DL versus the Dereelight with 3 mode Q5 pill in an OP reflector. Again at about 53 feet in back yard with my color "targets". The overall beam patterns of the hot spot are about the same size. The video camera can't pick up the spill versus the hotspot in this mode of operation but the human eye can. The Dereelight had more spill and made it a little easier to see the targets that were out of the main beam of the light. Both were very comparable though. They are both in the over 200 lumen range (as we all now know and its in the "common knowledge" domain) and the little extra lumens the Dereelight module had really isn't noticeable.


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## MarshallManiac (Mar 2, 2009)

Thank you for the video documentation :thumbsup: The E2DL is a great EDC.


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## CR123_CR123_CR123 (Mar 2, 2009)

MrGman said:


> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-YXTKvi_oEo
> 
> quick video of the SureFire E2DL versus the Dereelight with 3 mode Q5 pill in an OP reflector. Again at about 53 feet in back yard with my color "targets". The overall beam patterns of the hot spot are about the same size. The video camera can't pick up the spill versus the hotspot in this mode of operation but the human eye can. The Dereelight had more spill and made it a little easier to see the targets that were out of the main beam of the light. Both were very comparable though. They are both in the over 200 lumen range (as we all now know and its in the "common knowledge" domain) and the little extra lumens the Dereelight module had really isn't noticeable.



nice comparison vid, makes me appreciate 200 lumens lights more now. :candle:


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## rumack (Mar 2, 2009)

Judging from the pic of the two lights side by side, I'm guessing I would find the Olight M20 too large for me to EDC. I have an E2DL and love the throwy beam but I don't carry it because of the crenellated bezel. I would love to get rid of that bezel. I am taking a night class and the E2DL would be most welcome the times that I have left school after dark to find the lights in the parking lot are all turned off. I don't like walking 40 or so yards through a dark parking lot to my black car. My E1B has served me well on those occassions but I'm guessing the E2DL would be noticeably better. That said, I wouldn't mind checking out the M20 also. :devil:


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## deranged_coder (Mar 2, 2009)

rumack said:


> Judging from the pic of the two lights side by side, I'm guessing I would find the Olight M20 too large for me to EDC. I have an E2DL and love the throwy beam but I don't carry it because of the crenellated bezel. I would love to get rid of that bezel. I am taking a night class and the E2DL would be most welcome the times that I have left school after dark to find the lights in the parking lot are all turned off. I don't like walking 40 or so yards through a dark parking lot to my black car. My E1B has served me well on those occassions but I'm guessing the E2DL would be noticeably better. That said, I wouldn't mind checking out the M20 also. :devil:



I think the M20 is difficult to EDC if you are planning to carry it in your pockets. Even the E2DL might be a bit long for easy pocket carry and the crenellations in the tailcap and bezel might make it a bit uncomfortable. If you go with using a belt holster (comes with the M20, separate accessory for the E2DL) or keep in in a backpack then either light is fine for EDC.

You can probably grind down the bezel on the E2DL (I have seen some pics of people who have done that to their E2DL) to remove the crenellations if they really bother you. Both my E2DL and M20 are noticeably brighter than my E1B so if you want something with more output than the E1B then either light will fulfill your needs well.

If I were to sum up the pros and cons of either light then the M20 is more affordable, comes with accessories like a lanyard and holster, and can take 18650 rechargeable li-ion cells but is noticeably bulkier than the E2DL. The E2DL is much more compact, the two levels are easy to access with one hand, can tailstand, and with the addition of an F04 diffuser produces a beautiful flood beam but is much more expensive and is designed to only take CR123 primaries.


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## MrGman (Mar 2, 2009)

I was at a gun show this weekend and was surprised to see some high quality LED lights on the tables and not just a lot of the never heard of the no name brands (there was a lot of those). 

Couple of different vendors had the O-Light M20 and Warrior R2 on their tables, they tried to impress me and I won't say they did a bad job but I had the EagleTac T10C2 in one pocket and the SF E2DL in a Fenix Holster that it fits into very well on my belt. I was able to do some quick checking of the beams side by side on the table and on the ceiling (obviously couldn't shut the house lights down) but they were all comparable in overall brightness. I like the feel of the M20 Warrior and its cren. bezel unscrews, but it would definitely be a holster light and not a pocket light.

Another woman had several of the Tiablo lights that I was really surprised to see on the table. A9, A10 R2, A10 ACE. Batteries were kind of weak by the time I got to her table in the afternoon, none of them really appeared all that bright from what I would have expected. So it would have been easy for would be customer's to get the feel of these lights and compare them hands on for a change.

There was a whole bunch of this low budget 2 AA light with a long crenellated bezel front end and a ring built in like on the O-light M20 Warrior for only $20 but it was only a 1 watt LED. It had a 1 inch size tube and it looked like it was meant to go on the equipment rail for an AR 15 (it was gun dealers and AR-15 accessory dealers selling them. Had the "tacticool" look but it was not worth the $20 to me from what I could see. 


As an additional side note
A couple of guys were selling green lasers, 5mW, 20mW and 50mW. Since I could compare them all side by side I could easily see that they were in fact brighter and higher power. I was so very tempted but saved my cash for ammo. 


In general the level of light quality I am seeing at the gun shows is going up with M20 Warrior's and A10, A10 ACE's on the tables.


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## rumack (Mar 2, 2009)

deranged_coder said:


> I think the M20 is difficult to EDC if you are planning to carry it in your pockets. Even the E2DL might be a bit long for easy pocket carry and the crenellations in the tailcap and bezel might make it a bit uncomfortable. If you go with using a belt holster (comes with the M20, separate accessory for the E2DL) or keep in in a backpack then either light is fine for EDC.
> 
> You can probably grind down the bezel on the E2DL (I have seen some pics of people who have done that to their E2DL) to remove the crenellations if they really bother you. Both my E2DL and M20 are noticeably brighter than my E1B so if you want something with more output than the E1B then either light will fulfill your needs well.
> 
> If I were to sum up the pros and cons of either light then the M20 is more affordable, comes with accessories like a lanyard and holster, and can take 18650 rechargeable li-ion cells but is noticeably bulkier than the E2DL. The E2DL is much more compact, the two levels are easy to access with one hand, can tailstand, and with the addition of an F04 diffuser produces a beautiful flood beam but is much more expensive and is designed to only take CR123 primaries.



That's a good summation of the two lights.

Yes, I should have mentioned that I carry my lights in pockets. I don't like carrying things on my belt.

I have briefly entertained the thought of grinding down the crenelations on the E2DL but I hate to do that, mostly because I'm not confident it would come out looking very good.


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## deranged_coder (Mar 2, 2009)

rumack said:


> That's a good summation of the two lights.
> 
> Yes, I should have mentioned that I carry my lights in pockets. I don't like carrying things on my belt.
> 
> I have briefly entertained the thought of grinding down the crenelations on the E2DL but I hate to do that, mostly because I'm not confident it would come out looking very good.



You can do what I do and keep the F04 diffuser on the light when you carry it. The diffuser will keep the crenelations from catching on anything and it can easily be removed when you want throw.


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## DHart (Mar 2, 2009)

Runmack... sounds to me like the E1B is a great choice for you. At moderately close ranges, it'll more than sufficiently blind an opponent... do you really need more than that?

Sure, you can go with an even brighter light (E2DL), and the quest for "brighter" can go on forever, really, but does the extra expense and extra size/bulk of acquiring an E2DL really buy you anything you MUST have? 

Not taking anything away from the E2DL, and I'd say go ahead and buy one just because you want to... if you do, but I think an E1B in the pocket is just the ticket for what you're describing... if you don't want to holster carry on a belt. (I don't like doing that either.)

If you really want a "parking lot tactical blinder", take the money you would have spent on the E2DL and buy a FM3P body, 6P head, Z59 tailcap, AW16340, and a Malkoff M30 lamp module. It's bulky, but short and goes in a pocket no problem and it's blindingly bright. Runtime isn't long, but that's not the need in this type of light. And being single mode, you'll get tactical brightness first time every time. EXACT same length as the E1B, but a bit fatter! Here's mine, which happens to have a P7 lamp module & IMR16340 in it at the time of this photograph:


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## Fooboy (Mar 2, 2009)

MrGman said:


> I measured my new E2DL just a few minutes ago. and the big news is
> 
> 
> 210 lumens at turn on and still 203 lumens after a full minute plus warm up, on high.
> ...



Gman, I give you a lot of credit for publishing that. I know you're not exactly a huge surefire fanboy so I know it must have been a little painful ... but I appreciate your objectiveness.


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## N/Apower (Mar 2, 2009)

Fooboy said:


> Gman, I give you a lot of credit for publishing that. I know you're not exactly a huge surefire fanboy so I know it must have been a little painful ... but I appreciate your objectiveness.


 
Yep, he even lost a bet doing it. +1 to being a stand-up individual!


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## LumenMan (Mar 2, 2009)

MrGman is a real asset to the CPF Community :thumbsup:


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## MrGman (Mar 2, 2009)

LumenMan said:


> MrGman is a real asset to the CPF Community :thumbsup:


 

And yet I get no scotch, pizza, or barbequed catfish  :shrug:

And I'm still 6 feet tall no matter what my feelings are about Surefire lights.


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## LumenMan (Mar 2, 2009)

MrGman said:


> And yet I get no scotch, pizza, or barbequed catfish  :shrug:


 
Maybe we can all chip in & send you a nice "R & R" package


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## rumack (Mar 2, 2009)

Fooboy said:


> Gman, I give you a lot of credit for publishing that. I know you're not exactly a huge surefire fanboy so I know it must have been a little painful ... but I appreciate your objectiveness.



The same thing crossed my mind when I read the result of the E2DL testing. Kudos to you MrGman! Your efforts, and truthfulness, are much appreciated. I admit to being a Surefire fan but there are several other brands I have my eye on once I am employed again. Being an out of work flashaholic is no fun.

DHart - thanks for the tip and the great pics. I have thought about checking out an M30 setup. I see you have the same E1B setup as I do, with the Z68 tailcap. It makes all the difference to me. I know the style of the E1B is smooth for a reason but it's a little too smooth for me. The tailcap makes it much better for my use. As for whether I really need the additional power of the E2DL, well, I have to admit that for some lighting applications I fall victim to the "more is better" line of thought. I tend to feel that way about horsepower, too. 

Once my finances improve I have also considered checking on a Milky mod for my E2DL. I don't remember reading about any Milky E2DL's but it sounded like a good idea to me.


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## seattlite (Mar 3, 2009)

Size15's said:


> It would seem a good idea to test a few more examples to see whether one is an over-performer, or the other is an under-performer. Or in fact whether these two are representative of the range and the 'normal' performance output is somewhere between the two.



I have both a one level E2DL Head and a KX2C. I don't have the sophisticated measurement equipment as the gman, but I do have a light meter and a "box". My un-scientific measurements of both heads resulted in the KX2C having 20% more light output than the E2DL head. Both lights were using the same brand of 3.7V RCR123's and I switched the paired cells and re-measured.

The KX2C seems to be a whiter than the warmer E2DL.


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## rumack (Mar 3, 2009)

seattlite said:


> I have both a one level E2DL Head and a KX2C. I don't have the sophisticated measurement equipment as the gman, but I do have a light meter and a "box". My un-scientific measurements of both heads resulted in the KX2C having 20% more light output than the E2DL head. Both lights were using the same brand of 3.7V RCR123's and I switched the paired cells and re-measured.
> 
> The KX2C seems to be a whiter than the warmer E2DL.



I have considered picking up a KX2C head as a solution to my lack of love for the crenelated bezel of the E2DL. I wish it unscrewed like the M20's. The KX2C and the single stage E2DL use identical LEDs and optics, correct? I don't have the technical knowledge of LEDs that others here possess but I am very surprised at the variance that exists within LEDs of a given type, both with output and tint. I think LED lighting is exciting but the LED lottery is very annoying. Unless you're a winner like MrGman with his E2DL. :twothumbs



MrGman said:


> And yet I get no scotch, pizza, or barbequed catfish  :shrug:
> 
> And I'm still 6 feet tall no matter what my feelings are about Surefire lights.



Hmm, I wonder if part of my fondness for Surefire lights is to compensate for my lack of height? 

All this talk of food - pizza, BBQ catfish, and especially the BBQ salmon from the "Actual Lumens" thread - is making me very hungry. Do we have a recipes section here?


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## N/Apower (Mar 3, 2009)

MrGman said:


> And yet I get no scotch, pizza, or barbequed catfish  :shrug:
> 
> And I'm still 6 feet tall no matter what my feelings are about Surefire lights.


 
Yeah, I thought I was 5'11 until it was proven to me that I am really 5'10.5".


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## DHart (Mar 3, 2009)

N/Apower said:


> Yeah, I thought I was 5'11 until it was proven to me that I am really 5'10.5".



Happens to us all!  I used to be 6'1" now I'm just 6' :thinking:


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## Noobiwan (Mar 10, 2009)

Thanks G. I'm now a believer. Never thought the E2DL was over 200 lumens. But like you say, truth is truth.


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## Forgoten214 (Mar 11, 2009)

So does anyone else run the E2DL with rechargables? How about the 18650? Possible?


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## nohcho (Mar 11, 2009)

18650 will not fit into E2DL's tube, nor 17670, the only option you have is rcr 123.


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## Forgoten214 (Mar 11, 2009)

nohcho said:


> 18650 will not fit into E2DL's tube, nor 17670, the only option you have is rcr 123.



How about using AW 123 3.7V rechargables?


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