# Fenix... That Good?



## Marion David Poff (Jun 17, 2007)

Howdy,

I have been kinda researching the Fenix products, and I am wondering if they are as good as the numbers seem to suggest?

My buddy was saying that as far as he is concerned, they are a Surefire killer, if the runtimes/lumens are to be believed...

What do you all think?

Marion David Poff


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## enLIGHTenment (Jun 17, 2007)

Runtime and output aren't everything. Fenix lights are non-starters for many applications because they use perverse user interfaces. No Fenix light has a momentary + constant pushbutton switch ('forward clickie' in CPF parlance) and many of them require arcane and lengthy series of switch presses to cycle from off, though all modes, and back to off. The need to cycle through all modes makes momentary extremely awkward, negates the benefit of low level output for preserving night vision and prevents the use of high-intensity bursts for attention getting.

Fenix could be a serious contender (on functionality grounds, at least) to Surefire if they would adopt serious, non-gimmick, UIs for their lights. Until then, however, Surefire will continue to rule the roost at the high end.


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## funder (Jun 17, 2007)

IMHO, Fenix and SF aim at different market, although they do have somewhat overlap.
The build quality of fenix is slightly inferior to surefire's, such as exterior coating, robustness of construction. However, fenix moves so fast, it always use latest technology, this makes fenix has a better performance in brightness/runtime.

For example, the Cree version of Fenix lights have been available about half years ago, while Surefire's cree lights will be available in next month. And in the next month, fenix will introduce Rebel lights and wash out the Cree lights.

Hope this information can make some sense.


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## nerdgineer (Jun 17, 2007)

Yes, they are that good.... An agile and innovative company making well designed flashlights of sophisticated engineering, with first class US based customer support.


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## TORCH_BOY (Jun 17, 2007)

Yes, They are that good, great value for your $$


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## phypaa (Jun 17, 2007)

Ok Felix and Surfire fight again!
They are both good. I am not really a flashlight user, I don't need a flashlight with me at work or around, I just like to collect them.
Felix is less expensive, bright, build quality is good.
Surfire is always a legend. It is expensive, not always at the top tech., great build quality, charming.
I buy both of them. 
If you just want to buy one for use, just anything you like or you can afford.
If you are attracted by flashlights, whichever you start with you will get the other and more and more.


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## Ousanas (Jun 17, 2007)

LOVE my fenix Lights. BUT not a SF killer, different animal all together. 

Fenix are the benchmade/spydercos of the flashlight world to me. People in the know either love them or hate them, but they are good quality, PERFECT for 99 percent of the world EDC use

SF are the Strider/Emerson's. Expensive, but mostly worth it, THE military/police use equipment, Great for anyone, necessary only by a few.

Maglites are the run of the mill Bucks and whatnot. What the rest of the world sees as THE company to beat. Sooo many people think mags and bucks are IT for knives and flashlights. 

I have no SF's, I want SEVERAL, and when I have the funds I'll get one. I have several Fenixes, and will probably get at least 3more before I get a SF. I carry 2 almost all the time, my wife carries one as well. and along with those I carry a spyderco and she carries a benchmade.


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## carrot (Jun 17, 2007)

nerdgineer said:


> Yes, they are that good.... An agile and innovative company making well designed flashlights of sophisticated engineering, with first class US based customer support.



nerdgineer pretty much nailed it.

And if they could remove the almost useless strobe and SOS functions from their flashlights... well, in my eyes, they'd be golden.

I would hesitate to call Fenix a Surefire-killer but they are very good at what they do, which is making quality consumer flashlights.


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## vic2367 (Jun 17, 2007)

id have too agree with all the fenix lovers out there,,,bright light,long runtimes,,,great value for the money,,,


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## yellow (Jun 17, 2007)

its a difficult topic, 
especially as there are different lighting _needs_ and as the ppl, willing to purchase EXPENSIVE lights, are the first to bash in any direction without reflection (and most of them not even on par with the older Luxeon technology)

I like my lights to have at least 2 levels, being small, running long and to work within what I call "flashlight distances" (= anything up to 30-50 meters in the dark). Thats where an actual led kills everything else and especially normal incan flashlights.

Forward/reverse clicky is not a point for me (but I have to say that the SF clickie tailcap is not working the way I expected from a tailcap that costs *more* than a complete Fenix flashlight)
That Fenix-UI bashing is the best joke ever  Imagine how many very satisfied users of Flupic's we have here (I am one of them and regret not having bought more of them). They are way more complex.

BTW: I own several SFs and till, say, last year, there was nothing to beat them. Now I dont use them any more, makes no sense now



> Fenix lights are non-starters for many applications because they use perverse user interfaces. No Fenix light has a momentary + constant pushbutton switch ('forward clickie' in CPF parlance) and *many of them require arcane and lengthy series of switch presses to cycle from off, though all modes, and back to off*. The need to cycle through all modes makes momentary extremely awkward, negates the benefit of low level output for preserving night vision and prevents the use of high-intensity bursts for attention getting.


I have to comment on this:
forward and reverse clickie switch --> light is ON --> push the button --> light is OFF, with both kinds of clickies!
Fenix: high light mode ON/OFF in Turbo mode for the turbo ppl, 
You seem not to know that, so You dont own a Fenix, so why do You comment on a comparison of these lights?
Can You compare then?

PS: I happen to very often click the SFs forward clickie into ON accidentially and I havily doubt that in a _situation_ an officer is able to grab the light, support the gun with the 2nd hand and then turning the light on without activating the clicky. 
Sure its nice to be able to make a short burst without being forced to click the light off, but most of these times one could also live totally without light, or? And when the light will be used for some time, then both switches have to be clicked on. 
That "forward/reverse" talk is for armchair heroes only, imho.


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## BSCOTT1504 (Jun 17, 2007)

Fenix lights are very good! But not a Surefire killer..


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## yellow (Jun 17, 2007)

another observation beneath the "clicky" theme:
there is absolutely no useful way to mount a *lanyard* to most SFs.

one could bash Fenix for their small, sharp holes but at least they offer them.
Both makers: look how *Inova perfectly solved that problem*!

That garage-shop like metal ring I have for my 6P is just a joke. Didnt use the light for several years and now changed it to a Cree + 18650 (now its perfect!). Unfortunately added the lanyard, too. Had it mounted to my bars during a medium rain and there got enough water inside, that I have water signs at the McR reflector.
Only bad, nothing else. 

But surely: that forward clicky dependable officer (  ), has no problem with the light, that has slipped from his hand some minutes before...


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## MorpheusT1 (Jun 17, 2007)

I buy Fenix lights just as the next guy does,

Output is great and they can be had for cheap.
Perfect for the consumer market.

But as far as i am concerned Fenix has been standing still in the areas i want them to blossom.

Coating is not good. Not Thick enough HA.
Knurling is lacking-slippery when wet.
Switch..how hard is it to improve on this..momentary on is my favorite feature.
Low..i want a Really low LOW.
Reliability...still to early to say but my Fenixes has held up pretty good.

The output has clearly improved and runtime is great.


But when i go outside i still prefer my Surefires.


Benny


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## ScooterBug (Jun 17, 2007)

i agree on what Benny said. when i go outside or to work it is with a Sirefire. I do have lights from both.


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## Barbarian (Jun 17, 2007)

MorpheusT1 said:


> I buy Fenix lights just as the next guy does,
> 
> Output is great and they can be had for cheap.
> Perfect for the consumer market.
> ...


+1


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## adirondackdestroyer (Jun 17, 2007)

Marion David Poff said:


> Howdy,
> 
> I have been kinda researching the Fenix products, and I am wondering if they are as good as the numbers seem to suggest?
> 
> ...


 

As far as numbers go (output/runtime) Fenix is on top of the mountain right now. Their new cree models are both very bright and give great runtime as well. VERY hard to beat in terms of performance. 
If the only thing you are looking at is lumens/runtime then yes they are a Surefire killer, but many people love Surefire lights for the build quality and the heft that most of them have. I'm not sure if Surefire is more reliable or not, but they do feel more robust than Fenix lights. 
I think it really depends what you are looking for or what you use your lights for. I just want a small pocket sized EDC that will give great output and good runtime. Because of this I mainly use Fenix lights or something similar.


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## Lee1959 (Jun 17, 2007)

In my opinion, Fenix lights are decent for the money, good, but not great. Out of all the lights I have had I personally have had more trouble with them than any other brand. I have owned 6 Fenix lights, and had switch problems with 3 of them. The only ones I have not had a problem with are the twisties switches so far. 

I have owned a dozen Inovas and never had a single issue, same with Maglights. I have 3 Surefires and never had a problem with any of them. So I would say decent but not great, certainly not Surefire busters by any mean. They are fast to change to new technology which is what makes them so popular here. 

Others have had different experiences I am sure, this is just my own.


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## selfbuilt (Jun 17, 2007)

enLIGHTenment said:


> Runtime and output aren't everything. Fenix lights are non-starters for many applications because they use perverse user interfaces. No Fenix light has a momentary + constant pushbutton switch ('forward clickie' in CPF parlance) and *many of them require arcane and lengthy series of switch presses to cycle from off, though all modes, and back to off*. The need to cycle through all modes makes momentary extremely awkward, negates the benefit of low level output for preserving night vision and prevents the use of high-intensity bursts for attention getting.



Always a touchy subject, since human nature dictates that whenever we pay more for something we need to justify its utility over cheaper options. 

I have no problem with honest differences of opinion on the relative merits of one light over another, but the above bolded quote is just not factually accurate. There's no need to cycle through modes on either clicky or twisty version Fenix lights. For clickies, single click always turns light on lowest low or highest hi, depending on how tight the head is twisted on. IMO, Fenix has one of the best UIs for multi-level lights.


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## BB (Jun 17, 2007)

And, very specifically, *full click turns light off from any mode (this is still a standard clickie in that full click on then second full click is off--the difference is that with a SureFire clickie is that a partial press turns light on. Fenix, from on, a partial press turns light off)*...

So--First full click light is on (either in dim, or turbo--depending on head position). A partial click (reverse clickie function--or a quick full click off then click back on) interrupts the power and when released, the light moves to the next mode (brighter mode or flashing functions).

If the light is off for more than about 2 seconds, the electronics will default to the first mode (dim or turbo) when the power is applied again.

If you send Morse Code by flashlight--a Fenix "D" model is not for you.

-Bill


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## wrathothebunny (Jun 17, 2007)

I'd like to quickly weigh in on the Fenix. I have a P3D and I absolutely love it, but I want to address some of the criticisms out there for this light. 

One function often described as "useless" is the SOS function. Well, I like to sea kayak, and being swept out away from shore in a riptide scares the living #@&! out of me. I can definitely see the SOS function coming in handy there. I figure, even if some person on shore sees that light and doesn't know morse code, it should still strike them as some kind of signal light, nonetheless, and hopefully prompt action.

Another criticism targets the reverse clicky operation of the multiple lumen levels. Now, there may be a better way to handle the multilevel output on the Fenix, but in actual use, I actually found switching between levels to be far faster and easier than I had previously expected. I think this is due to the ability to just lightly tap the switch to toggle the levels, rather than fully actuating it. Also, setting it on turbo allows you to instantly get a burst of light. For tactical operations, yes, it would suck the big one - and I would never even consider using it, but for everything else, it suits me just fine.


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## Tjin (Jun 17, 2007)

well for a actually user, i think the fenix is good for 95 out of 100 uses. I have used mine Fenix L1P for over 2 years and yet to incounter any problems with it. It's still on mine belt everyday, used for pretty much everything. 

I think the most complains are from flasoholics that somehow see everything not SF quality as less. Personally i LIKE the reversed clicky and i don't care about the thickness of the HA. So mine flashlight has some bare alluminium on some tiny spots, I don't care. 

It's like compairing a Rolls Roys, with a Toyota. The Toyota might not have such nice looks and nice finish, but it get the job done, easily if not better. 

The only complain i have, is that Fenix stopped making the good old simplistic flashlights like the L1 and the L1P.


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## Windscale (Jun 17, 2007)

wrathothebunny said:


> I'd like to quickly weigh in on the Fenix. I have a P3D and I absolutely love it, but I want to address some of the criticisms out there for this light.
> 
> One function often described as "useless" is the SOS function. Well, I like to sea kayak, and being swept out away from shore in a riptide scares the living #@&! out of me. I can definitely see the SOS function coming in handy there. I figure, even if some person on shore sees that light and doesn't know morse code, it should still strike them as some kind of signal light, nonetheless, and hopefully prompt action.
> 
> ...


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## Daekar (Jun 17, 2007)

funder said:


> IMHO, Fenix and SF aim at different market, although they do have somewhat overlap.
> The build quality of fenix is slightly inferior to surefire's, such as exterior coating, robustness of construction. However, fenix moves so fast, it always use latest technology, this makes fenix has a better performance in brightness/runtime.
> 
> For example, the Cree version of Fenix lights have been available about half years ago, while Surefire's cree lights will be available in next month. _*And in the next month, fenix will introduce Rebel lights and wash out the Cree lights*_.
> ...



Not to hijack, but can you elaborate on this statement? I was under the impression Rebels weren't all that they were supposed to be...:candle:


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## firefly99 (Jun 17, 2007)

enLIGHTenment said:


> Runtime and output aren't everything. Fenix lights are non-starters for many applications because they use perverse user interfaces. No Fenix light has a momentary + constant pushbutton switch ('forward clickie' in CPF parlance) and many of them require arcane and lengthy series of switch presses to cycle from off, though all modes, and back to off. The need to cycle through all modes makes momentary extremely awkward, negates the benefit of low level output for preserving night vision and prevents the use of high-intensity bursts for attention getting.





funder said:


> IMHO, Fenix and SF aim at different market.The build quality of fenix is slightly inferior to surefire's, such as exterior coating, robustness of construction.



Agreed with above posters. 

Fenix has a long way to go before getting to Surefire league. Different people different strokes, get whatever you can afford and enjoy it as it is.


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## Optik49 (Jun 17, 2007)

A Rescue Laser Flare is another thing to have boating and hikeing. 
Not to get off the subject.


http://www.greatlandlaser.com/


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## Windscale (Jun 17, 2007)

Daekar said:


> Not to hijack, but can you elaborate on this statement? I was under the impression Rebels weren't all that they were supposed to be...:candle:


 
I am all for competitions, without which there will be no progress. I hope in 5 years we will be seeing 10W LEDs lights running on 1 x R123a (3000 mah) with 10 hours runtime. So, let's have SF and Fenix and others kicking one another [email protected]#$!! We the consumer will benefit.


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## firefly99 (Jun 17, 2007)

yellow said:


> Didnt use the light for several years and now changed it to a Cree + 18650 (now its perfect!). Unfortunately added the lanyard, too. Had it mounted to my bars during a medium rain and there got enough water inside, that I have water signs at the McR reflector.
> Only bad, nothing else.


This water leakage is not a manufacturing defect. It is the result of poor & sloppy attempt at unauthorized modification.


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## BB (Jun 17, 2007)

Come-on... Fenix "D" model: One click, low mode. Then one click, off.

Tighten head, one click on--turbo mode. One click, off.

Want a irritatingly blinkly light to get attention... Tighten head, click twice. Will probably blink for four or more hours. (technically, this is the tactical blink)

Want it to blink longer... Untwist the Fenix P3"D" head a 1/4 turn and press the switch ~4 times to get a bright, but very s--l--o--w SOS that will probably last for several days (don't know--haven't measured it).

Guarantee that blinking a SureFire to get attention for more than a few minutes will make your finger drop off...

I am sure that if somebody ordered a large batch of single output level Fenix's with a "forward clicky"--I am sure they would make them.

If enough people wanted SOS on an LED SureFire--they probably would make that too.

Buy what you want. Mod what you need. Trade with friends. Nobody is forcing somebody to purchase anything against their will... Why the worry? :sigh:

-Bill


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## firefly99 (Jun 17, 2007)

wrathothebunny said:


> One function often described as "useless" is the SOS function. Well, I like to sea kayak, and being swept out away from shore in a riptide scares the living #@&! out of me. I can definitely see the SOS function coming in handy there. I figure, even if some person on shore sees that light and doesn't know morse code, it should still strike them as some kind of signal light, nonetheless, and hopefully prompt action.





Windscale said:


> I could not argee more. I think the SOS is very important for hiking when one has got lost or stuck. To be seen is just as important as to see. It is for this reason that I have never been out in the wilderness without my Inova 24/7. It is not very good as a light 'to see'. But in order 'to be seen' it is still my firm favourite. And it is little.


If you guys have the chance to use the Fenix SOS features and someone rescue you. Please share your experience so that we would know how effective is the SOS mode.


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## ZMZ67 (Jun 17, 2007)

Fenix lights are great they offer as good or better performance than other lights of the same size/battery configuration.I have three and two more on the way. That being said Fenix build quality doesn't compare to Surefire or even INOVA.As an all around light Fenix is hard to beat but for tactical applications I would choose INOVA or Surefire so I don't believe it is a Surefire killer.The one thing I would advise to a prospective Fenix buyer is to buy from a reputable dealer who backs the product.Fenix Store,Brightguy and Lighthound are good examples.


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## yellow (Jun 17, 2007)

firefly99 said:


> This water leakage is not a manufacturing defect. It is the result of poor & sloppy attempt at unauthorized modification.


muhahaaaaaaa 
"unscrew head, put ring on body, fix head" - cant be easier.
(no mention of lubing rubber seals, what I do regularly)
And its even "allowed" to do it. 
(without the ring the light is now sealed against water again, btw.)

Ever tried to change the lens? Thats a difficult thing; to get the lens seal into right position again and even this is "allowed" (done it several times and the lights all were tight, as supposed)

I would bet I have used my SFs longer (in years and in runtime) and at incan times they really were great. Bad runtime (even with my homemade 8X and 9N batt sticks, which is 1 hour 30 mins at the moment) but great lights.
Overcome now

PS: do You send Your light to the manufacturer to change the batts? Changing batts buy the user surely is also not allowed and an unauthorized modification


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## Windscale (Jun 17, 2007)

Well Firefly99, fingers crossed I have not had to use the SOS before. I am sure the idea is 'prevention is better than cure'. I would rather have it and not need to use it than to need to use it and not have it! However, I would not ask someone who has been in trouble to share his experience and this would kick up nasty memories. Of course I would love to hear any such experiences if the persons involved are happy to talk about it.


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## FlashKat (Jun 17, 2007)

I personally think Fenix is too expensive for what they are. If I am going to spend that much I will just pay more and buy a Surefire. The flipside I could buy a Fenix equivalent for less money from Dealextreme or Kaidomain.


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## yellow (Jun 17, 2007)

well, seems You were lucky with Your models from dealextreme.
All my lights bought there (ONLY to act as a host, thats what they really are good at, if tread quality is ok) showed an even larger difference in workmanship than Fenix to SF.

the dx all are really sloppy, cheap (and most of them boring bad treading offering, or wrong in measurements), this "chinese" quality (in the sense of "bad"),
Fenix are medium priced and good quality and
SFs are mechanically perfect.

"You get what You pay for."


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## FlashKat (Jun 17, 2007)

I don't know why you used quotation marks on chinese...Fenix is "chinese" made. If you buy the flashlights from DX/KD that are over $15.00 they are built well enough for reliability.


yellow said:


> well, seems You were lucky with Your models from dealextreme.
> All my lights bought there (ONLY to act as a host, thats what they really are good at, if tread quality is ok) showed an even larger difference in workmanship than Fenix to SF.
> 
> the dx all are really sloppy, cheap (and most of them boring bad treading offering, or wrong in measurements), this "chinese" quality (in the sense of "bad"),
> ...


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## CandlePowerForumsUser (Jun 17, 2007)

For the price and what you get from Fenix lights make them a really good buy. I've owned a L2D-CE (first fenix experience) and a P3D-CE. Both lights are very functional and quality is pretty decent. I don't see them failing anytime soon. They are both bright as heck and run times are very good. 

I would recommend them to anyone looking for a good light without a high price tag and can't think of any other light in the price range that can compare. 


BTW. I own a surefire E2L outdoorsman, lumapower M1, rexlight2.0, and ultrafire C3 so not being bias here at all. :thumbsup:


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## :)> (Jun 17, 2007)

CandlePowerForumsUser said:


> For the price and what you get from Fenix lights make them a really good buy. I've owned a L2D-CE (first fenix experience) and a P3D-CE. Both lights are very functional and quality is pretty decent. I don't see them failing anytime soon. They are both bright as heck and run times are very good.
> 
> I would recommend them to anyone looking for a good light without a high price tag and can't think of any other light in the price range that can compare.
> 
> ...



I agree. Fenix are excellent lights at a very attractive price.

After saying that, I am waiting for the new Surefires to come out because I believe that they are a higher grade light than Fenix lights.

-Goatee


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## Optik49 (Jun 17, 2007)

Wow hot topic. :touche:Surefire makes a decent light very durable ect…. However you pay top dollar for them, unless you catch a deal somewhere. They have also missed the boat when it comes to keeping up with the led technology. 

 Fenix right now has the biggest led bang for the buck / size with the P3 and P2. I sold all of my Surefire lights but have considered purchasing a G2 or G3 only to change it with a led drop-in that I would not get from Surefire, that’s sad for Surefire. You can buy a Fenix and not have to make any modifications. 

 At least with Wolf eyes you can get a decent light at a reasonable price and buy topnotch accessories (from them) at a reasonable price. :thumbsup: I do like Surefire but the need to get their butt in gear and play a little catch up. They are going to release new lights next month and they still will not be beating Fenix. 

 I guess both have their strong points. Some say Fenix are not as tough as Surefire. I know they don’t look tough but has anyone ever destroyed one. I have yet to break a flashlight except when I dropped a Mag light years ago and the bulb went out. 

Just my opinion...........


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## KeyGrip (Jun 17, 2007)

Windscale said:


> So, let's have SF and Fenix and others kicking one another [email protected]#$!! We the consumer will benefit.



+1 
Despite the different targeted markets, competition among flashlight manufacturers will always lead to improvements that I can't wait to see.


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## MorpheusT1 (Jun 17, 2007)

Just ordered a couple P2D`s Btw...

Man im weak....


I still want Knurling on these bastids.
They are to slippery to change levels properly.


Benny


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## paulr (Jun 17, 2007)

I see it as like any other comparison between consumer and professional equipment. Take a look at a home washing machine, with all kinds of features for perma press, length of wash cycle, delicate vs cotton vs whatever, etc. Compare it with a commercial washer like you see in a laundromat. The commercial washer has none of those features--it only has one cycle--and it's 5x as expensive as the home model. That is because, unlike the home model, it's built to wash 20 loads a day, 365 days a year. For the normal home user, the home unit has much more bang for the buck. We should not conclude that the commercial unit is some kind of rip-off. Laundromat operators pay the big bucks for commercial washers for a good reason, not because they are stupid. Now if we had a situation where washing machine technology enthusiasts were buying commercial washers to use at home, then they started realizing that they could save a lot of money and get more features from home-model washers, that would be sort of like what we're seeing with SF vs Fenix flashlights. The expensive "feature" of commercial washers is not something that shows up in the feature list. It doesn't mean that the home unit is somehow equal to the commercial one in construction or durability.

It extends everywhere else too. Compare a home coffee maker that automatically makes coffee and plays music in the morning, to the coffee makers that you see in donut shops (that they make 5+ pots/hour with, 24/7/365); compare a home record player with a professional DJ model (back when DJ's still record players); compare a consumer cellular phone to a police walkie talkie; compare a consumer video camera to the ones that TV news reporters use. In every case, the professional gear is pathetic compared with the consumer gear if you go purely by specs and features. So are the professional users who buy the expensive stuff being taken for a ride? No, they're paying for capabilities that most consumers don't have a real use for and don't care about, that doesn't show up as lumens or decibels or runtime. There's just some confusion where consumer expectations start getting applied to professional equipment and vice versa. Of course the manufacturers themselves partly foster this--they're in business after all, and they're delighted when someone wants to buy their stuff, whether the intended use is the originally designed-for use or not. However, the underlying design criteria start completely different between the two types of gear, even if they later begin to overlap.


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## fluke (Jun 17, 2007)

BB said:


> Guarantee that blinking a SureFire to get attention for more than a few minutes will make your finger drop off...





I just laughed out loud in an empty room at 3.45am :tinfoil:


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## ringzero (Jun 18, 2007)

paulr said:


> I see it as like any other comparison between consumer and professional equipment. Take a look at a home washing machine, with all kinds of features for perma press, length of wash cycle, delicate vs cotton vs whatever, etc. Compare it with a commercial washer like you see in a laundromat....




Excellent post, paulr. Good use of analogy - explains things in a way that makes it easy to understand.

Coincidentally, I was recently discussing this very topic with a guy I know who owns several laundromats. Those laundromat washing machines and dryers are expensive, but worth every penny.

.


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## greenstuffs (Jun 18, 2007)

Fenix are great lights but i'd research more into lumapower, ultrafire, jetbeam or lights found at DX or KAI at this moment i do believe that some Fenix are overpriced as we all believe surefire are overpriced... P1D CE is still $70 go figure... For finish and looks TO ME Jetbeam beats Fenix hands down but as some said fenix have the best UI. 
I'm no fan of pipe shaped lights but if i had to get one now probably will be a Jetbeam U for my keychain


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## ringzero (Jun 18, 2007)

Tjin said:


> The only complain i have, is that Fenix stopped making the good old simplistic flashlights like the L1 and the L1P.




Exactly!

I'd love it if Fenix would make Cree-ified LxP, LxT, LxS, and E1 CE.

I just can't get past the gimmicky, Mickey-Mouse UI on the newer Fenix CE lineup. Never will I pay 50+ bucks to get stuck with that lame of a UI!

.


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## Nitro (Jun 18, 2007)

ringzero said:


> Exactly!
> 
> I'd love it if Fenix would make Cree-ified LxP, LxT, LxS, and E1 CE.
> 
> ...



What would be your ideal UI if you could choose your levels?


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## paulr (Jun 18, 2007)

Nitro said:


> What would be your ideal UI if you could choose your levels?


Two modes: 1) on; 2) off.


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## Nitro (Jun 18, 2007)

paulr said:


> Two modes: 1) on; 2) off.



LOL! I bet you're still using a rotary phone and watching a B+W TV.

You Bi-Mode guys can't be serious. A >100L light is useless for indoor close up work. And a low level light is useless outdoors. So what's your solution for an EDC, two lights?


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## yellow (Jun 18, 2007)

I really like paulrs post with the comparison, its great, 
but that "UI on/off" one is this strange, I would not be surprised to learn that its 2 different persons who typed them
question: thats an UI You dont get now? 
Someone not wanting lower levels, or flashing/SOS does not have to use them.
--> which is not true for several low end lights where You have to click through the three way switch to shut the light off. 



FlashKat said:


> I don't know why you used quotation marks on chinese...Fenix is "chinese" made. If you buy the flashlights from DX/KD that are over $15.00 they are built well enough for reliability.


because anyone talking of "chinese" means bad and Fenix is not (its the benchmark in consumer lighting now, imho)

Several of the "more expensive" models of DX feature a bit a better tread quality (I mention this, because thats what I dislike most in their lights) but still there are boring "chinese" () errors.
F.e. this light here:  bought because of the TWO 18650 capability!
Simply not possible, as the body (with the extension of course) is too short by 1 cm at least. 
Except from this its ok. As I want it as a host and with the LA removed, the 2 18650 will fit in, so I dont mind, but ...

most other lights mentionned (Jetbeam and such) do feature better looking/machining, but the wrong or a dumb UI. 
There are 2 ways a light has to cone on: on low for the "using low the most" and on high for the "tactical" ppl. If the light works the other way, its useless for one of the two.
But starting in med, going down to low and then high :thinking: 
in no way what we read here in wishes / critics on lights.

PS: a really low low and more different levels would be great, thats why its still better to use modded lights. They could be made to one's personal wishes


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## yellow (Jun 18, 2007)

.


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## ringzero (Jun 18, 2007)

Nitro said:


> What would be your ideal UI if you could choose your levels?




The L2T/L1T and L2S/L1S UIs were excellent for two-level lights. Simple and good. Reliable. No Mickey Mouse BS. Could set light to come on either High or Low as the user wished. Many wished for a lower low, but the lights were decent as delivered.

The L2P/L1P, E1, and Civictor UIs were great for single level lights. Simple and good. Reliable. No Mickey Mouse BS.

All of the above lights could have become even better lights by Fenix simply replacing Lux with SSCP4, or in the case of the E1 replacing Rigel with SSCP4.

Some people prefer to buy and use only single level lights. For twisty keychain lights, I agree. I'd rather carry two single level keychain lights for greater reliability. One light around 5 lumens with long runtime, the E0 or similar. One brighter light with shorter runtime, E1 or similar. E1 with SSCP4 would have been a superb light.


.


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## paulr (Jun 18, 2007)

As I've said elsewhere, Fenix (like Arc before it) had one great flashlight concept (the L1p) and a bunch of others ranging from pretty good to not-so-hot. Yes, I currently edc three lights, and I'd prefer that each of them had exactly one function that it did extremely well, rather than having them be multi-function lights that require tap dancing to operate. No I don't have a b/w tv set, in fact I have no tv set . 

A good two-level interface can be seen on the Surefire A2 or McLux PD-S. A good multi-level interface can be seen on the Spy 005, but that's more of an art piece. For functionality purposes I'm convinced by now that for an edc light, 2 levels is enough (high = about 10x as bright as low). Some people ask for an ultra-low mode but I think that's a bit misguided since a white led will always be annoying no matter how dim it is. The answer is a separate light with a red led (this is one of my three edc's, a red-led fauxton on my keychain) for when you want to be unobtrusive and/or preserve your night vision. Also, for close-up use you want a flood beam with no hotspot while for distant use you want a narrow beam. The SF A2 does this properly, using three 5mm leds for the low mode and a reflectorized incan for high mode. I don't know of any other production lights designed this way, which is a shame. There are a few lights with both red and white leds (LRI Proton, some of the Eternalights) but I think separate lights is fine.


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## jumpstat (Jun 18, 2007)

Since being a member of CPF since December 2006, I have read many comments between Surefire/Fenix. I started out with surefires and when Fenix came out with the P1 series and L series I held back until the P3D which was my first Fenix and 2nd chinese light. I wouldn't compare it to a Surefire, but I would with other chinese lights. Fenix are overpriced IMHO. Even comparing P3D to Liteflux's LF2, P3D won only for runtime and brightness. For ui, LF2 is more usefull. Everytime I edc my P3D, I always bring along a Surefire. Personally I wouldn't cry If I loose a P3D as I would a surefire.......After P3D bought 3 more surefires.......


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## KeeperSD (Jun 18, 2007)

jumpstat said:


> Fenix are overpriced IMHO.


 
Funnily enough i think exactly the same thing about Surefires 
I do not own a Surefire and will not while they are so expensive in this country :shakehead and offer virtually no benefit (except to say that i own one)over other lights which are available. 

I do own 1 Fenix, L0D-CE. I bought it for a light that i can truly EDC and put in my top pocket at work. I like the mutli levels, offers flexibility when using it in all situations. As for the UI being difficult or complicated to use, i am not sure how much simpler it needs to be. I would not use it in a situation that requires it be be on/off, for that i have lights would be described as more "tactical". 

Not 100% sure about the SOS mode, i think i would just go with the strobe mode personally if i was needing to be rescued, but with them at the end of the cycle they rarely get used anyway.


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## Lite_me (Jun 18, 2007)

Originally Posted by *Nitro* 

 
_What would be your ideal UI if you could choose your levels?_


paulr said:


> Two modes: 1) on; 2) off.


ALL Fenix lights will do this. 

1) Click ON; 2) Click OFF. 
or
1) Twist ON; 2) Twist OFF

............


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## ringzero (Jun 18, 2007)

Lite_me said:


> ALL Fenix lights will do this.
> 
> 1) Click ON; 2) Click OFF.
> or
> 1) Twist ON; 2) Twist OFF




Yeah, but only in a half-assed manner.

It's a real shame that Fenix decided to abandon making serious lighting tools. The new Fenix lights are packed chock full of gimmicky "features" and all of them have Mickey Mouse UIs.

You're welcome to them.

.


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## yellow (Jun 18, 2007)

I simply dont get it :thinking:
there seem to be 2 main critics here: 
not just ON/OFF (like the P models)
no model working like the _good_ L1T, L2T

one stage guys: ON/OFF possible, see Lite_me's post f.e.
two stage guys: 
...head tightened: ON/OFF in bright
...head loose: ON/OFF in low
noone _forces_ You to use the other levels 

PRICE really would be an argument!
But all the cheaper lights (about 25,-- and less) I have handled so far, are/were crappy as hell. Machining/feel or circuit/output wise or both, together in one package.  Even the ones looking identical to Fenix/Jetbeam, ..., in the pics.
Also, the _good_ lights (T and P models) costed more or less the same and were considered great, at their time (just last year).


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## CandlePowerForumsUser (Jun 18, 2007)

"But all the cheaper lights (about 25,-- and less) I have handled so far, are/were crappy as hell. Machining/feel or circuit/output wise or both, together in one package."

I tend to disagree with you here. I have a couple ultrafire lights (C2 and C3) and the both Machining and output are really good. Both under 25 dollars at DX or Kai.

Thanks


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## Nitro (Jun 18, 2007)

I agree with Yellow. If you don't like the multi-levels, just keep the head tight, for bright. Why is that difficult?

Other people like multi-levels. I like 3. So actually Fenix is accommodating all of us.


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## Steve L (Jun 18, 2007)

It seems to me that Fenix lights usually have some of the best runtime to lumens ratio out there. I also appreciate that they do not use PWM other than in the LOD series. The UI in the LXD, P2D, and P3D is excellent. Click on turbo(tightened head) or low(loosened head) depending on your needs. Switching between the two is as simple as it gets.


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## Tjin (Jun 18, 2007)

i like the good old L1P, because it's not to bright and not to dim. Yes obviously the CE models will turn on and off too, but why should i have those features when i'm not using them.

When i use mine flashlight i want mine full attention to whatever i'm looking at, i don't want to spend even 5% of mine brains to change the mode on mine flashlight. If i need something with a little more lighting power, i use the bigger stuff in the cars/trucks or the even larger and brighter stuff mounted on the truck.


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## StinkyButler (Jun 18, 2007)

Hello Everyone, I've been lurking here for a couple of years and recently decided to sign up as my flashaholic-ism has been steadily increasing for a while now. I thought I'd chime in on this topic to offer my point of view, as limited as it may be.

I'm of the opinion that just because you like one light or brand over the other, you don't have to slam the one you don't prefer. Calling them "toys" or claiming they have "Micky Mouse UI's" are invalid statements that kinda just prove your bias. Fenix lights have very good UI's considering. Additionally, I think that Fenix can be Surefire killers, _in certain situations_. As far as EDC and non-tactical use, it's like having 2 or more lights with you at once. Not only that, but the Fenix Cree versions are brighter, cheaper, and more efficient than SureFires. 

Now, if you find yourself in Navy Seal or Army Ranger type situations on a regular basis and a flashlight is for some reason one of the key tools to your survival, then SureFire is absolutely the way to go, if you can afford it. They are like mini-tanks, and they are probably one of _the_ sturdiest lights you can buy. Not only that, but when you buy a SureFire, you're getting more than just a light. They are like legends in the flashlight world and their name carries a LOT of respect.

Don't get me wrong, I like both brands, and I'm anxiously awaiting the SF Cree models as I've yet to own a SF. As soon as they're available, I'll be picking one up as soon as I can. I just think that for less than half the price, the Fenix lights are solid pieces of work and ideal for most (non-tactical) situations.


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## nerdgineer (Jun 18, 2007)

StinkyButler said:


> ...Not only that, but when you buy a SureFire, you're getting more than just a light. They are like legends in the flashlight world and their name carries a LOT of respect...


With respect, I disagree. You're buying a light, period. The name means nothing beyond whatever history of performance that company has with you regarding delivery on time, to specs, etc. The soldier is trusting that YOU tested it properly so it meets his needs.

If my procurement rules allowed me (they are often limited to US suppliers only) and some no name tested better than a Surefire, then that's what I'd recommend. 

Note, the final decision is usually made by a higher up who takes the "legend" thing and other political considerations (e.g. product comes from the home state of a congressman sitting on an Armed Services commitee) into account. Sometimes the final choice is based on making the best political choice among several "good enough" technical candidates, occasionally with surprisingly loose "good enough" standards so as to allow the preferred political choice to be made. 

I personally would love to take 10 Surefires and 10 Fenix XXX-CE's and toss them each into empty gallon paint cans, put them all on paint shakers, and then track how long each one keeps working after I shake 'em. THAT would be a statistic worth knowing.

Can't afford to, of course; but it would sure scratch my engineering itch if the SOCOM or Homeland Security or the Insurance Board or someone did, and published the results.


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## jeremyison05 (Jun 18, 2007)

nerdgineer said:


> I personally would love to take 10 Surefires and 10 Fenix XXX-CE's and toss them each into empty gallon paint cans, put them all on paint shakers, and then track how long each one keeps working after I shake 'em. THAT would be a statistic worth knowing.
> 
> Can't afford to, of course; but it would sure scratch my engineering itch if the SOCOM or Homeland Security or the Insurance Board or someone did, and published the results.



+1


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## WadeF (Jun 18, 2007)

When I bought my Surefire E2e years ago I was attracted to it because it was small and bright. It was cool to have a small light that blew away a big old Maglite. When I heard about the Fenix P1D-CE that was even smaller than my E2e, brighter, had different brightness levels, ran on only 1 battery and had longer run times, with more lumens, than my E2e it was a no brainer. I didn't get the E2e because I could drive over it, drop it off a cliff, or whatever, I got it because it was small and bright. Now I have a P1D-CE that is smaller, and brighter. In my mind it's superior to the Surefire because it fits my needs MUCH better. 

As far as durability, one member here dropped his Fenix down an elevator shaft, I think 9 stories, bouncing off metal and who knows what, and it still worked. The worst that would happen to one of my lights would be falling on the ground. I think it'll be okay.


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## NutSAK (Jun 18, 2007)

I suppose the fact that Fenix is the only Chinese brand of flashlight that, for some reason, is constantly compared to Surefire here on CPF means something.


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## ringzero (Jun 18, 2007)

StinkyButler said:


> I'm of the opinion that just because you like one light or brand over the other, you don't have to slam the one you don't prefer. Calling them "toys" or claiming they have "Micky Mouse UI's" are invalid statements that kinda just prove your bias.




I've purchased over a dozen Fenix lights and have been pretty happy with them, trading them away or giving them as gifts. I still have several Fenix lights that I like. I'm not slamming Fenix, just the UIs of their latest lights.

One Fenix UI combines a Twisty Head AND a Reverse Clicky to step through 3 Output Levels, Turbo Output, Strobe, SOS and to turn the light On and Off. (Maybe that list is missing a "Feature" - hard to remember them all.)

Another Fenix UI uses just a Twisty Head to step through a like number of Levels and "Features" and to turn the light On and Off. The operator must accomplish switching between all of these different modes by rapidly twisting the head Off and On.

Sorry, but those ARE "Mickey Mouse" UIs. ("Mickey Mouse" is a slang term used to tag something as "silly" or "not to be taken seriously.")

You consider my opinion of the Fenix UIs to be "invalid" - fine, but it's still my opinion.

.


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## jumpstat (Jun 19, 2007)

Just sold my P3D Natural Over at CPFmarketplace, needed funds for another project. What I am trying to say is that this light is VERY POPULAR, and the person who bought it even paid cost as well........


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## Nitro (Jun 19, 2007)

ringzero said:


> One Fenix UI combines a Twisty Head AND a Reverse Clicky to step through 3 Output Levels, Turbo Output, Strobe, SOS and to turn the light On and Off. (Maybe that list is missing a "Feature" - hard to remember them all.)


This would be the P2D/P3D. But it sounds like you never even seen these lights, because your representation is incorrect.



> ...but it's still my opinion.


That it is, even if it's a Mickey Mouse one.


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## 2xTrinity (Jun 19, 2007)

> One Fenix UI combines a Twisty Head AND a Reverse Clicky to step through 3 Output Levels, Turbo Output, Strobe, SOS and to turn the light On and Off. (Maybe that list is missing a "Feature" - hard to remember them all.)


This is actually one of the most elegant interfaces I've used. The way you described it makes it sound like the separate controls makes the interface more complicated, when in fact, it simplifies things:

Click on/off, twist to switch between high to low. Under no circumstances is it necessary to "skip through" any of the other levels if you don't want to use them, as there is a way to directly switch between high and low (tightening, or loosening the head) Though I use them infrequently, the other levels have useful. For example, when the light is on in low, a partial-click switches to medium. 



> Another Fenix UI uses just a Twisty Head to step through a like number of Levels and "Features" and to turn the light On and Off. The operator must accomplish switching between all of these different modes by rapidly twisting the head Off and On.


The twisty-only interface I agree is irritating, the twisty + clicky is certainly better. I have the L0D-CE, and when running on AAA cells I found myself twisting twice to get to high mode, which I found myself wanting to use most of the time, then having to to skip past strobe and SOS if I want to go from high back to low. I now run it on 10440 LiIon -- the primary mode (medium) is actually as bright as the old max mode used to be, so I find myself using that most of the time. If I need low output, it's the next. If I need insane 130+ lumen burst from my keychain light, it's three twists away.

Even in the AAA size, I would prefer if they actually installed a tiny clicky on the back, and used hte same interface as the L1D, and PxD series with click off/on, twist high/low. Despite the cheesiness of the interface though, this light has been my most useful -- as it's literally _always_ on hand.


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## WadeF (Jun 19, 2007)

ringzero said:


> Sorry, but those ARE "Mickey Mouse" UIs. ("Mickey Mouse" is a slang term used to tag something as "silly" or "not to be taken seriously.")


 
I agree with the twisting on and off to change modes being annoying, not a big fan of it, but the P2D/P3D are great. Tightening the bezel allows you to instantly click on to TURBO. This is nice for outdoors, etc. Loosening the bezel allows you to turn on in low, then step up to medium, then high, then SOS if desired. So being able to start in either TURBO or LOW is great. No more skipping through modes to get to TURBO or LOW. My P1D-CE goes high, turbo, low, strobe, sos. I usually want low, so it's a pain. 

It's great to have one light that offers such a variety of output with an easy and effective interface.

Also, to clarify, with the P2D/P3D a full push/click turns the light on, a full push/click turns the light off. To step through mods you click on, then lightly press to go through modes. You don't have to go low, medium, high, sos, off. Or Turbo, strobe, off. You can just click on turbo, click off. Click on low, click off. Or Click on low, tap to medium, tap to high, cilck off. 

Of course, no momentary on and off, but I don't see where I would ever need that, and if I did, I could just turn it on and wave my hand infront of the light and then turn it off.


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## ringzero (Jun 19, 2007)

Nitro said:


> This would be the P2D/P3D. But it sounds like you never even seen these lights, because your representation is incorrect....That it is, even if it's a Mickey Mouse one.




Hey Nitro - I'm not going to sink to your level of trading insults back and forth, which is what you seem to want.

If my description of the UI is incorrect, then contribute something useful to the discussion and point out how it's incorrect.

.


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## paulr (Jun 19, 2007)

oops double post


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## paulr (Jun 19, 2007)

WadeF said:


> Also, to clarify, with the P2D/P3D a full push/click turns the light on, a full push/click turns the light off. To step through mods you click on, then lightly press to go through modes. You don't have to go low, medium, high, sos, off. Or Turbo, strobe, off. You can just click on turbo, click off. Click on low, click off. Or Click on low, tap to medium, tap to high, cilck off.


 But there is a step missing. Traditional interface:

Click once: ON
Click again: OFF
Click again: ON
Click again: OFF
etc.

P2D Interface when you've got the bezel adjusted to the right setting depending on the moon phase:

Click once: ON
Click again: OFF (so far so good)
Click again: FLASH FLASH FLASH ARRRRGGGGHHHH!!!!!

This happens all the time with my L0D CE. I shut off the light in my room when I'm about to leave, and I use the L0D CE to find my way through the now-darkened room out to the hallway (which is lit). I turn off the flashlight once I'm in the hallway. Then I immediately realize I forgot something in the room, so I try to turn the flashlight back on, and BLINK BLINK BLINK ARRRRGGGGH!!!! because I didn't wait the 3.27 seconds or whatever it is. Really I'm too old for this crap. I just want a light that turns on and off. No flashing. No dim setting. I'm a flashaholic and I would never think of going out with just one flashlight. If I want high and low brightness, I'm happy using separate flashlights for them.


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## Vinnyp (Jun 19, 2007)

paulr said:


> But there is a step missing. Traditional interface:
> 
> This happens all the time with my L0D CE. I shut off the light in my room when I'm about to leave, and I use the L0D CE to find my way through the now-darkened room out to the hallway (which is lit). I turn off the flashlight once I'm in the hallway. Then I immediately realize I forgot something in the room, so I try to turn the flashlight back on, and BLINK BLINK BLINK ARRRRGGGGH!!!! because I didn't wait the 3.27 seconds or whatever it is. Really I'm too old for this crap. I just want a light that turns on and off. No flashing. No dim setting. I'm a flashaholic and I would never think of going out with just one flashlight. If I want high and low brightness, I'm happy using separate flashlights for them.


 
It's only 2 seconds, wow yours must be different to everyone elses because even if you turn it back on in less than 2 seconds you just get the low setting. No flashing unless you do it 3 times so hardly something that happens a lot unless you want it.


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## ringzero (Jun 19, 2007)

2xTrinity said:


> This is actually one of the most elegant interfaces I've used. The way you described it makes it sound like the separate controls makes the interface more complicated, when in fact, it simplifies things...




Well, if the UI works for you I'm glad.

But, I don't want a flashlight with 6 or more modes that must be dealt with in one way or another.

I can live with complicated multi-modes in a headlamp, where they may actually be useful. Headlamps are typically set at a given output and left alone for a while. Flashlights get turned on and off more frequently and their UIs should be simple and reliable, IMHO.

What really frustrates me is that the L2D/L1D could have been truly elegant lighting tools like the L2T/L1T. High and low selected by twisting the head, on and off with clicky. Simple and reliable. No aggravation of stumbling into unwanted modes or having the light shift modes when bumped.



2xTrinity said:


> The twisty-only interface I agree is irritating, the twisty + clicky is certainly better...



Exact same situation.

It would have been easy for Fenix to produce single-level lights, which many people prefer for their keychain lights.

A two-level light with twisty control could also be excellent. No worry about the sequence of levels, just toggle between low and high. No worries about stumbling into strobe or SOS.

Again, it frustrates me that Fenix could easily have made some truly great lights, but settled for lame UIs simply so they could toss in a bunch of extra "features."

.


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## wrathothebunny (Jun 19, 2007)

The multilevel control of the Fenix's is meant to maximize one's illumination options. I will give you scenarios of how this can be useful.

If I'm camping, the lowest setting of the Fenix P3D would be most preferable for reading, playing cards, rummaging, etc. around camp. Any higher light will harm my night-adapted vision.

For hiking, the medium level output would provide plenty of illumination, and while decreasing my night-adapted vision (of necessity), it would not completely obliterate it like the higher levels.

For use around city lights, the high mode of the Fenix provides (at least for me) the right amount of illumination, bright enough to see everything in my environment, but not so bright as to blind me if I look at the hotspot.

For work demanding the highest illumination, whether for spotting something off in the distance, or illuminating something up close thoroughly, the turbo setting provides the lumen power when you need it.

If a riptide sweeps me out from shore while sea kayaking, the SOS mode could prove useful. I could set it on that signal, tie it to the ropes, and keep trying to kayak against the current.

The strobe, well, you got me on the strobe.

So there you go, I gave you a use for 5 out of those 6 levels. Does it sacrifice elegance and simplicity? Of course. Would some people rather trade the flexibility for elegance and simplicity? Of course. Does it mean that providing all these modes is patently stupid? No. Does it mean having this flexibility makes the Fenix a toy, or not a "serious" tool? No, not if used for its intended range of purpose.


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## iamerror (Jun 19, 2007)

Is it just me, or has a certain Disney character been mentioned far too much in this thread?


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## ringzero (Jun 19, 2007)

wrathothebunny said:


> The multilevel control of the Fenix's is meant to maximize one's illumination options. I will give you scenarios of how this can be useful...So there you go, I gave you a use for 5 out of those 6 levels. Does it sacrifice elegance and simplicity? Of course.




Hey wrathothebunny, I'm glad you like your Fenix. You do a good job of justifying the utility of its many modes, then admit the light is neither simple nor elegant.

Simple and elegant are traits I value in handheld lights, which is why Fenix no longer holds my interest like it once did.



wrathothebunny said:


> Would some people rather trade the flexibility for elegance and simplicity? Of course. Does it mean that providing all these modes is patently stupid? No. Does it mean having this flexibility makes the Fenix a toy, or not a "serious" tool? No, not if used for its intended range of purpose.



Does it mean that Fenix can't build different lights to satisfy both camps?

Flexible lights for those who want them, which describes their current Cree lineup. 

Simple and elegant lights for those who want them, which would mean updating their older product line with SSCP4s.

There's no reason that Fenix couldn't offer L2T/L1T Cree lights, Civictor Cree, E1 Cree, etc.

.


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## wrathothebunny (Jun 19, 2007)

Yeah, it would be nice if Fenix built lights for both camps. It would also be nice if they offered warm white CCT options. Of course, it would be nice if SureFire offered more runtime options than just 60 minutes and 20 minutes in their incans, as well as more options for running incans on rechargeables. It would also be nice if they offered more mini-turbohead options, like with the M4 for instance. A SureFire M4 with mini-turbohead that runs a 13V energy saving lamp assembly designed for 2X17670s for 3 hours at 50 lumens would be nice, or a 9P with a lamp that runs for 3 hours at 30 lumens on 2x17500s would be nice as well. But just because we wish it, doesn't mean that they will make it.


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## Handlobraesing (Jun 19, 2007)

Quality is extremely hard to assess on something in just the first week or two of ownership.

It's about percentage of return for defect over a long period of time.


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## Vinnyp (Jun 19, 2007)

ringzero said:


> It would have been easy for Fenix to produce single-level lights, which many people prefer for their keychain lights.
> .


 
Hmm some people prefer them and they have the E0 and E1 for that. For me the Keychain light is occasionally the only light I have so it needs to be flexible. It is also a backup to my main light and provides discreet low lighting if I need it. I have a Ti Draco and that has 3 levels It does everything I want for usual keychain carry. It's UI is complicated but I have seldom heard the Draco described as Mickey Mouse. It is available as a single level light. I'd be surprised if 5% sold were single level, even less if you count people who only bought the single level. So it looks like all things being equal most people prefer multi level. 

Now the Draco is a fairly expensive light but, when I travel, the Fenix is on my keyring since, for me, it's the best at any price if you might be away from civilisation for a while I don't think it's a toy.

I think Fenix should offer a 2 level CE like the L2T with a choice of switches to appease everyone but trust me a "tactical" light doesn't want a clicky of any description forward or reverse.


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## Windscale (Jun 19, 2007)

wrathothebunny said:


> A SureFire M4 with mini-turbohead that runs a 13V energy saving lamp assembly designed for 2X17670s for 3 hours at 50 lumens would be nice, or a 9P with a lamp that runs for 3 hours at 30 lumens on 2x17500s would be nice as well. But just because we wish it, doesn't mean that they will make it.


 
Agree wholeheartedly.

This is the worst failure of SF. If they played their cards right, there would have been no room for existence for the UltraFires and Fenixes and the like. And the cards were so simple: Cree, 18650s. I think many, like myself, who have gone for the UltraFires etc. not because they can't afford SFs, just that SF do not turn out the goods we want!


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## Steve L (Jun 19, 2007)

Originally posted by ringzero



> Does it mean that Fenix can't build different lights to satisfy both camps?
> 
> Flexible lights for those who want them, which describes their current Cree lineup.
> 
> ...


Fenix has a single(1) level flashlight coming out tomorrow the P1 CE 90 lumens-2.5 hours runtime. Heres a link: http://fenix-store.com/product_info.php?cPath=22_55&products_id=255


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## Windscale (Jun 19, 2007)

Steve L said:


> Originally posted by ringzero
> 
> 
> Fenix has a single(1) level flashlight coming out tomorrow the P1 CE 90 lumens-2.5 hours runtime. Heres a link: http://fenix-store.com/product_info.php?cPath=22_55&products_id=255


 
I think Fenix must be quite capable of building lights as smooth as SF. In fact I have already seen some Chinese lights with that sort of built quality, for example, my Z Power LED (YJ-18WE). But why would they want to tread onto competitive grounds if they can simply lure SF customers to them by doing what they are doing now.


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## zk188 (Jun 19, 2007)

This is is ridiculious some of you hate fenix so you compare them to a popular disney character shut up and if you have nothing nice to say THEN DONT SAY IT!!!


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## Nitro (Jun 19, 2007)

ringzero said:


> I'm not going to sink to your level of trading insults back and forth, Which is what you seem to want.


No, I want you to stop misrepresenting something that you've obviously never used. Even Mickey Mouse could read the Fenix website, and know the modes better then you describe them (no offense Mickey).



> If my description of the UI is incorrect, then contribute something useful to the discussion and point out how it's incorrect..


Why should I have to correctly represent what you continually misrepresent. Multiple people have done that multiple times, but you still keep misrepresenting it. The question is why.


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## NeonLights (Jun 19, 2007)

Nitro said:


> You Bi-Mode guys can't be serious. A >100L light is useless for indoor close up work. And a low level light is useless outdoors. So what's your solution for an EDC, two lights?


For me the solution is three lights, typically an ARC AAA on a titanium chain around my neck, a Fenix P1 clipped to my belt loop, and often a brighter incan like a SF E2e with E2c and a P61 or a SF 9P with P91 bulb in my pants pocket. 

The only kind of mulit-level lights I have that see any kind of use are the SF L1 and A2 with their very simple UI's. I've had way too many lights fail for one reason or another in my 30+ years of using flashlights to depend on one light to do everything. The simpler the UI the better for me. I own one Fenix, the P1, and I love it, it takes the place in my EDC of the ARC LSHP I used to own a few years back. I don't really feel a need to replace it, but I might go ahead and pick up the new Cree powered P1 if it seems to be enough of an upgrade.


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## Nitro (Jun 19, 2007)

I agree a backup light is good idea. I carry two minimum L0D and P1D. Soon to be P2D and L0D. Then in a month or so, I'll be carrying the EDC-120. And when I'm on long walks/hikes I'll bring my TL-3 or ROP. Soon to be a 2C-5761 with AW's Multi-Level Driver.

However, my point is for most tasks, I like to use one light. I don't want to be grabbing different lights for different brightness levels.


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## yellow (Jun 19, 2007)

I will mark this and the other tread and will post links into the one future tread, dealing with that "supergreat and powerful" SF MULTIemitter, that they will build when their Cree models received positive talk but the critic that they _are too dim_

Suddenly everyone will have "known from the beginning", that 

leds can be bright
perfect in- and outdoors
but need to be multiemitter to give the requested output

I type now, that this light will be a three emitter setup and would say "within one year from now on" (= till summer 08)


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## greenLED (Jun 19, 2007)

I was one who couldn't understand why Fenix would make such "complicated" UI's... that was before I actually used one of their CE lights. I have an L1D-CE now, and I can tell you the interface is extremely straightforward:

- click for on/off - that's it!

If you want to get fancy and get hi/low, then you twist the head. So simple even a caveman could do it. 

If you want to get *super fancy*, tap the switch while the light is on.

For all other purposes, though, the "super fancy" modes are completely out of the way. I bet ya, there would be people who got an L1D-CE and wouldn't realize there were multiple modes unless you told them about theM. After all, most people keep their lights with the head and tail tight. In that condition, all you get is on/off. Again... so simple a caveman can do it.

Get a couple of Fenix, get a few SF and then compare which one fits your needs. I've had almost as many Fenix as I have SF's. I like what each particular light can do for me under particular circumstances. 

Trying to figure out which one is "best" is silly, IMO and, quite frankly, it's gotten to the point where the "argument" is starting to grow mold. There is no "perfect" light, and no "best" light either, there are only "right" lights for a particular task.


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## Nitro (Jun 19, 2007)

Green, you summed it up nicely.


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## cy (Jun 19, 2007)

Fenix makes excellent lights! they are the front runners of the quality chinese light evolution. 

most importantly Fenix has not rested on it's laurels, but have released many new innovative models. 

don't like user interface of the newer models. too many useless features to get in the way. but this preference is purely personal. others may love all the fancy dancy modes. and that reverse clicky... will we ever be rid of it? 

my favorite Fenix also happens to be the best Fenix ever released. the fab L1+ stainless 1x AA light. it's got the only buck/boost board that I'm aware of that runs on 1x AA alk/nmh and 14500 li-ion. Production numbers were suppose to be 500 worldwide. But due to rarity, personally think there were less than 50 made. 

another really nice Fenix is L1P w/logo on head (1st production fenix). this also has the buck/boost board and can be easily modded for two stages. 

L1+ is the only Fenix I've actually EDC. Had Lo ti for awhile but sold it. a very nice light, but couldn't stand the user interface. 

I've EDC loads of Surefires, but only EDC one Fenix. the L1+ if that says anything...


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## ringzero (Jun 19, 2007)

Nitro said:


> Even Mickey Mouse could read the Fenix website, and know the modes better then you describe them (no offense Mickey).




Nitro, you're a really funny guy.

Since you are wrong on the facts, you want to avoid discussing the facts. A common tactic, but also a transparent and lame tactic.




Nitro said:


> Why should I have to correctly represent what you continually misrepresent. Multiple people have done that multiple times, but you still keep misrepresenting it. The question is why.




If you could correct my description of the Fenix UIs, then you'd have done it by now and be bragging about it. You can't correct my description, because there's nothing wrong in it to correct.

.


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## jason9987 (Jun 19, 2007)

I think I might be one of the only CPFers w/o a Fenix, I think they are great lights, got my cousin to get one and got one for my dad for fathers day but still haven't got one for my self, for some reason I am more hesitant to spend $50 on a fenix than the $130 on my A2 or $200 on my CR2ion XRE or the $150 preorder for a novatac. I guess since I got my HDS U60 I have trouble paying for a light thats not "Top of the line Quality". My biggest problem with a Fenix is that it wouldnt be an upgrade to any light I have and it wouldn't fill a niche I dont have a light for. Except for an alkaline powered light but I can't justify going back from lithium when I can get 123s for $1. Maybe I'll eventully get one but right now I have more lights than I need and I have a NovaTac on the way and plan on getting a new HDS when Henry releases his new flashlight.


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## StainlessSteel (Jun 19, 2007)

There are a couple things I would like to add to this discussion:

You can buy the Cree Drop in bulb for the G2, G3, 6P and 9P here:
http://www.bugoutgearusa.com/cosoplcrmo.html

That's the bugoutgear.com's Premium Plus cree drop in. So you can have a cree led, with your prefered Surefire User Interface.

Secondly. You WILL be able to have your GLADIUS upgraded, BY THE FACTORY, maintaining the factory warranty. Ken J Good has posted this on other forums.

IN MY OPINION, the Gladius has the BEST user interface when it comes to multiple settings:

You have one setting that is JUST temporary, at FULL Power.

You have setting that is STROBE, and with a cree, that setting is stomach turning.

You also have a constant-on setting, which you can ADJUST to start one of three ways: Turn-on on low. Turn-on on HIGH. Turn-on on the last setting. and THEN you can click and HOLD to ramp up or down.

I am convinced a LOT of thought went into this.

Mine is set up to star on low, so when i need a dim light, i rotate over, and click once. THEN, and this is the MOST important part... if i click again.. the light goes OFF. This is KEY for not disturbing other patrons in the movie theater. Then if i need more than low... i just click and hold, and it ramps up.

ok. that's all i have.


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## Nitro (Jun 19, 2007)

Ringzero:

Here are the facts. The Fenix P2D has two Main modes, General and Turbo selected by turning the bezel. The clicky then selects four sub-levels in General mode, and two sub-levels in Turbo mode. In General mode you have Low, Med, High and SOS. In Turbo you have High and Strobe.

But when you say,



> But, I don't want a flashlight with 6 or more modes that must be dealt with in one way or another


You misrepresent the light by making people think that somehow you have to click through all six levels to get to the one you want. What you fail to tell people is that if you pause between clicks, it acts like a normal light.

So when Lite Me says,



> ALL Fenix lights will do this.
> 1) Click ON; 2) Click OFF.
> or
> 1) Twist ON; 2) Twist OFF


Which is a fact. You say,



> Yeah, but only in a half-assed manner.


and you don't explain yourself. All you can do is dis Mickey.

So either you never used the lights and don't know how the work, or you're purposely misrepresenting them. Which is it?


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## paulr (Jun 20, 2007)

Fenix is coming to its senses about UI's, I think, in introducing the P1 CE. They've been making umpteen models of flashlight but reserving the simple interfaces for the low end models with less efficient leds. They're now realizing that some of their users are willing to pay for the CE leds but still want simple interfaces. So I hope they'll make an L1T CE or (dare I say it) L1P and L0P CE soon. I'm a bit regretful that I passed up an L0P Ti on BST a while back because I didn't feel likely to get around to modding it with a P4, but I'd probably find a way.

Ringzeros criticisms are all correct as is his observation that it's a matter of preference and if some people like computerized UI's, then more power to them. Me, I want to devote all my attention to the task at hand, not figuring out whether my flashlight is in the right setting.


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## ringzero (Jun 20, 2007)

paulr said:


> Fenix is coming to its senses about UI's, I think, in introducing the P1 CE...So I hope they'll make an L1T CE or (dare I say it) L1P and L0P CE soon.




I can only hope that Fenix comes to its senses about UIs.

L2T/L1T CE would be awesome lights!

All of the Fenix single-level lights would be great lights if Fenix would Cree-ify them.




paulr said:


> Ringzeros criticisms are all correct as is his observation that it's a matter of preference and if some people like computerized UI's, then more power to them. Me, I want to devote all my attention to the task at hand, not figuring out whether my flashlight is in the right setting.




Exactly.

I don't mind complex UIs in headlamps, because a complex UI doesn't detract from the usability of a headlamp. A mulit-level UI provides the ability to fine tune headlamp output for various conditions while maximizing runtime.

My headlamps are typically set to a useful output then left alone for a good while. Since the headlamp already has a complex UI, why not throw in strobe and SOS? They don't hurt anything and might come in handy some day.

But, I don't want a handheld light with a UI appropriate for a headlamp. In typical use my handheld lights are on and off very frequently.

I don't want to have to think about what I'm doing with a flashlight UI. Most of the time, I don't even think about turning a flashlight on and off. As I walk along and need light the flashlight seems to come on by itself, and when I no longer need light it goes off by itself. It happens without conscious thought.

What I don't want is a flashlight that comes on in strobe mode or SOS, or pops up to a higher level output because it was turned back on too soon.

.


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## ringzero (Jun 20, 2007)

Nitro said:


> Here are the facts. The Fenix P2D has two Main modes, General and Turbo selected by turning the bezel. The clicky then selects four sub-levels in General mode, and two sub-levels in Turbo mode. In General mode you have Low, Med, High and SOS. In Turbo you have High and Strobe.



Fine, that seems accurate to me.



Nitro said:


> But when you say
> 
> "But, I don't want a flashlight with 6 or more modes that must be dealt with in one way or another"
> 
> You misrepresent the light by making people think that somehow you have to click through all six levels to get to the one you want. What you fail to tell people is that if you pause between clicks, it acts like a normal light.




I wasn't trying to write a Fenix operating manual and don't believe I misrepresented the light's function.

Most CPF readers are smart enough to know you don't have to sequentially click through all of the six levels to get to the one you want.

If you want:
-low, you click once
-medium, you click through 1 level
-high, you click through 2 levels
-SOS, you click through 3 levels
-turbo, you click once
-strobe, you click through 1 level
(you may also have to twist the head.)



Nitro said:


> So when Lite Me says,
> 
> "ALL Fenix lights will do this.
> 1) Click ON; 2) Click OFF.
> ...




If I turn the light off, then turn it back on within two seconds, it will come on but shifted to the next mode, whatever that mode is. If it was in high when turned off, it will come on in SOS mode. If it was in turbo, it will come on in strobe mode.

There have also been user reports of these lights jumping to the next mode when bumped or vibrated - such as when strapped to bicycle handlebars or when dropped.




Nitro said:


> All you can do is dis Mickey. So either you never used the lights and don't know how the work, or you're purposely misrepresenting them. Which is it?




Nitro, you're a funny guy. But, you really should learn some basic manners.

If you talk this way out in the real world, eventually you'll encounter someone who will teach you some manners using a method of instruction you won't enjoy.

.


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## VF1Jskull1 (Jun 20, 2007)

for most indoor and edc situations, i have fenix lights to do the job....

for outdoor situations, i have my wolf eyes incandescents on aw rechargables with primary cr123a's in surefire carriers as backups (9D-raider and M90 standard with 13v conversion parts)... i also carry a sl tl-3 fitted with 17500 li-ons for work and for general use... i have the fenix as backups to those...

i don't think i'll be getting a surefire anything for a while if at all... i'll save the next $200 light fund for a 10W compact wolfeyes HID...

got a fenix P2D-CE on order for it's clicky, multiple functions, and compactness... i already have a hi/lo Fenix L2T (left it somewhere i can't recall) and a Fenix P1 as EDC along with a L1....


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## nerdgineer (Jun 20, 2007)

Is anyone besides me having trouble getting access to the first page of this thread? I keep getting the message:

*Fatal error*: Allowed memory size of 8388608 bytes exhausted (tried to allocate 1173687 bytes) in */var/www/vhosts/candlepowerforums.com/httpdocs/vb/includes/functions.php* on line *4994*


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## WadeF (Jun 20, 2007)

The only negative I can say about Fenix is they keep coming out with improved models so fast it's burning a hole in my wallet.  Just got a P2D-CE Q2 Special Edition from fenix-store.com and it has replaced my P1D-CE as my EDC. I prefer the ease of use the clicky offers and being able to start out in low. Also the beam is smoother thanks to the OP reflector, the LED is brighter at the same power level thanks to the more efficent LED, and the tint is better.


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## Lite_me (Jun 20, 2007)

nerdgineer said:


> Is anyone besides me having trouble getting access to the first page of this thread? I keep getting the message:
> 
> *Fatal error*: Allowed memory size of 8388608 bytes exhausted (tried to allocate 1173687 bytes) in */var/www/vhosts/candlepowerforums.com/httpdocs/vb/includes/functions.php* on line *4994*


 This error is caused by a setting in your CP. (until it can be rectified anyway) Go to your CP , Edit Options, and under Thread Display Options, set 'Number of Posts to Show per Page' to 50, or less.


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## Nitro (Jun 20, 2007)

ringzero said:


> If I turn the light off, then turn it back on within two seconds, it will come on but shifted to the next mode, whatever that mode is. If it was in high when turned off, it will come on in SOS mode. If it was in turbo, it will come on in strobe mode.


Just curious, how often do you turn the light off and within two seconds decide to turn it back on? Do you do a lot of Morris Code signaling?



> There have also been user reports of these lights jumping to the next mode when bumped or vibrated - such as when strapped to bicycle handlebars or when dropped.


This is a legitimate complaint that you never mentioned.

However, even with those two issues (the first not being an issue, IMO) still do not make this even close to "Mickey Mouse" UI.



> Nitro, you're a funny guy. But, you really should learn some basic manners.
> 
> If you talk this way out in the real world, eventually you'll encounter someone who will teach you some manners using a method of instruction you won't enjoy.


Did you ever think that saying something is "Silly, Half Assed and Not to be taking Seriously" about something that is NOT silly and IS taken seriously by someone, is actually insulting to that person? Especially if you cannot come up with a valid reason for your assertions, which you have yet to do.

To see my point try this. Go tell a group of Harley Davidson riders that their bikes are "Half Assed, Silly and Not to be Taken Seriously", and see where that gets you. Then come back and talk to me about manners.


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## nerdgineer (Jun 20, 2007)

Lite_me said:


> This error is caused by a setting in your CP. (until it can be rectified anyway) Go to your CP , Edit Options, and under Thread Display Options, set 'Number of Posts to Show per Page' to 50, or less.


Works now. Thanks, Lite_me.


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## Nitro (Jun 20, 2007)

paulr said:


> Ringzeros criticisms are all correct as is his observation that it's a matter of preference and if some people like computerized UI's, then more power to them. Me, I want to devote all my attention to the task at hand, not figuring out whether my flashlight is in the right setting.



I'm not saying a computerized UI is right for everyone. I'm not saying this UI is right for everyone. However, I'd say this UI works well for a lot of people. It must because they're selling alot. Even though I think this UI is far from perfect, I feel it's being misrepresented. If you tighten the bezel, you can turn the light On and Off like a "normal" light, as long as you pause 2 secs before turning it back on. For MOST people that's fine.

Also, if Ringzero said "According to my observation it's a matter of preference and if some people like computerized UI's, then more power to them.", I wouldn't have a problem. But for him to call it "Silly, Half Assed and not to be taken seriously", that's insulting to some who happen to like it. Would you agree?


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## ZMZ67 (Jun 20, 2007)

Recieved my LODCE and P2D today!These are great lights I hope all the UI talk doesn't scare anyone away from the new Fenix lights.While I still don't think Fenix lights fit in the "tactical" category they should be fantastic for most uses.I can see the UI on the twisties being a little inconvenient but it is less of an issue with the P2D.If your using one of these as an EDC then you should get used to the modes quickly anyway.Since Fenix is now releasing a P1CE maybe they are waiting for current stocks of LUXIII models to run down and they will release simplified UI lights.After lurking here for over a year it seems that Fenix often responds to requests from this forum.Anyway I am a happy camper. I'll always have my INOVA T1(2007) for the times when I want to avoid a UI or need a more tactical light.


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## Confederate (Jun 20, 2007)

Fenix lights are excellent, but I HATE the fact that they're made in China. They're also not really tactical lights. If Surefire doesn't dally too much with the new LED technology and if they're not too intent on overcharging people because of the Surefire name, I believe that Surefire will remain on top of the tactical heap.

I've also found the Fenix lights to be less than reliable in their multi-modes. Two of the four lights I've bought have had problems. None of my Surefires have had any problems except a tiny connector problem.

From a quality standpoint, Inova makes the best constructed lights on the market in my opinion. Still, Inova seems intent on remaining with an aging line that already needs updating.


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## paulr (Jun 21, 2007)

StainlessSteel said:


> Mine is set up to star on low, so when i need a dim light, i rotate over, and click once. THEN, and this is the MOST important part... if i click again.. the light goes OFF. This is KEY for not disturbing other patrons in the movie theater. Then if i need more than low... i just click and hold, and it ramps up.


First of all, don't use a white light in the theater, that's what red Fauxtons are for. Second, you don't need a low setting to dim the light. If your 1-level light is too bright just put your finger over the front.


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## yellow (Jun 21, 2007)

ZMZ67 said:


> I'll always have my INOVA T1(2007) for the times when I want to avoid a UI or need a more tactical light.


 all these pages here on SF = "tactical" = forward clickie and *bright* --> T1 does not seem to be tactical in this sense 


Confederate said:


> Inova makes the best constructed lights on the market in my opinion.


As You might have (or have not) noticed: I just modded a T1 to run on 18650 and Cree. You would be very surprised on how thick the sidewalls of this light are in the middle part, where the light engine and the optic rest 
... a light does not have to offer 5 mm sidewalls to be rugged 

...and lights like the T1 and the Fenixes are the same than most SFs, when run over with a truck, because they are completely flat and the others have different diameters with their wider heads. Therefore more prone to get damaged


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## Tjin (Jun 21, 2007)

...i never really understood why non LEO's en non millitary folks are complaining about a light not being "tactical". How often do you through a door and have to shoot or arrest someone? never?


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## ringzero (Jun 21, 2007)

Nitro said:


> Just curious, how often do you turn the light off and within two seconds decide to turn it back on?




Frequently with handheld lights. Almost never with headlamps.




Nitro said:


> Do you do a lot of Morris Code signaling?




Not since Boy Scouts and studying for a Ham license.




Nitro said:


> However, even with those two issues (the first not being an issue, IMO) still do not make this even close to "Mickey Mouse" UI.




It may not be an issue for you, but it is for others.

Both of newer Fenix UIs (multi-function twisty and mutli-function twisty-clicky) are Mickey Mouse UIs IMO.

So, we'll just have to continue to disagree.

The crucial point is that people can disagree without becoming disagreeable. You may think a person's opinion is dead wrong and that's fine - that's your opinion.

Criticize his opinion all you like, but don't criticize him personally or attribute ulterior motives to him for having that opinion.




Nitro said:


> To see my point try this. Go tell a group of Harley Davidson riders that their bikes are "Half Assed, Silly and Not to be Taken Seriously", and see where that gets you. Then come back and talk to me about manners.




I've done that in the past, because I have never much cared for Harley Davidson motorcycles. Harley Davidson is doing better nowdays, but not long ago Harley had incredibly bad quality control and laughable reliability.

When compared to Japanese, German, and Italian products, Harley Davidson products came off looking like junk. Even some of the British motorcycles were more reliable that Harley. Even hard-core Harley Davidson fans eventually had to admit how poor quality had become and many refused to buy new Harleys, buying older Harleys and rebuilding instead.


.


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## Nitro (Jun 21, 2007)

ringzero said:


> Criticize his opinion all you like, but don't criticize him personally or attribute ulterior motives to him for having that opinion.


I did not criticize you. I criticized your opinion. I called it a Mickey Mouse one. 



> I've done that in the past, because I have never much cared for Harley Davidson motorcycles.


Yeah, but did you call them, "Silly, Half Assed and not to be taken seriously"?



> Harley Davidson is doing better nowdays, but not long ago Harley had incredibly bad quality control and laughable reliability.


Most people don't buy Harley's for their reliablity, but that's another topic.


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## GarageBoy (Jun 21, 2007)

Fenix is to the light world as CRKT is to the knife world. Good designs, excellent users, but lose a little in the materials and F&F category


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## Outdoors Fanatic (Jun 21, 2007)

They are a good bang for the buck ( if you think 50 bucks is little money for a light ) However, they scream "Made in China" when you handle them. They feel cheap as hell compared to Arc, HDS, Inova and SureFire.


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## Vinnyp (Jun 21, 2007)

Outdoors Fanatic said:


> They are a good bang for the buck ( if you think 50 bucks is little money for a light ) However, they scream "Made in China" when you handle them. They feel cheap as hell compared to Arc, HDS, Inova and SureFire.


 
I'm typing on an IBM thinkpad which "screams" quality and reliability as born out in surveys, tests and recommendations. It was, like all IBM thinkpads, made in China. So made in China does not have to be synonymous with poor quality but it often is because the customer puts more emphasis on cost than quality.

Having said that I accept the Fenix lights definitely feel 2nd rate next to those you mention (never been lucky enough to own an HDS but I'll take everyones word for it). But they also are less bulky and weigh less whilst being tough enough for nearly everyone I'd think.


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## Dantor (Jun 21, 2007)

wow, sometimes these forums are like ping-pong games 
I am getting a fenix (or two, potato chips), is it possible with the introduction of a new fenix product (someone mentioned something about next month) that the price may drop a tad? also, is it possible to paint (powder coat) the main housing (L2D), can you strip everything off to paint the tube correctly? 

Thanks for all the input people (not meaning to hijack!).


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## GarageBoy (Jun 21, 2007)

Also, they need to make SE version of the l0D ce (no strobe, SOS)


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## greenstuffs (Jun 21, 2007)

IBM Thinkpad's quality have dropped considerably since they were bought by Lenovo (chinese computer manufacturer). China makes quality stuff but not top quality like US manufacturers. 



Vinnyp said:


> I'm typing on an IBM thinkpad which "screams" quality and reliability as born out in surveys, tests and recommendations. It was, like all IBM thinkpads, made in China. So made in China does not have to be synonymous with poor quality but it often is because the customer puts more emphasis on cost than quality.
> 
> Having said that I accept the Fenix lights definitely feel 2nd rate next to those you mention (never been lucky enough to own an HDS but I'll take everyones word for it). But they also are less bulky and weigh less whilst being tough enough for nearly everyone I'd think.


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## Vinnyp (Jun 21, 2007)

greenstuffs said:


> IBM Thinkpad's quality have dropped considerably since they were bought by Lenovo (chinese computer manufacturer). China makes quality stuff but not top quality like US manufacturers.


Lenovo have made the Thinkpads for IBM years, now they own the brand I have no idea about a drop in quality they still are the one to own according to our lot who get a choice. Who makes a better one then. Forgetting the torch world what field do US manufacturers lead the world in in terms of quality?


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## nerdgineer (Jun 21, 2007)

Vinnyp said:


> ...Forgetting the torch world what field do US manufacturers lead the world in in terms of quality?...


Military weapons...(so far)...


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## Outdoors Fanatic (Jun 21, 2007)

nerdgineer said:


> Military weapons...(so far)...


Guitars, amplifiers, speakers, boats, Airplanes, tools, knives, heavy mining equipment, tractors, spacial exporation devices, Satellites, Telescopes, Radars, Computer Processors, GPU's and most high-tech fields.


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## greenstuffs (Jun 21, 2007)

Flashlights, Night Visions i think you left that out. , High End GPU's as far as i know NVIDIA in Taiwan and ATI have the edge right now.


Outdoors Fanatic said:


> Guitars, amplifiers, speakers, boats, Airplanes, tools, knives, heavy mining equipment, tractors, spacial exporation devices, Satellites, Telescopes, Radars, Computer Processors, GPU's and most high-tech fields.


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## ringzero (Jun 22, 2007)

Nitro said:


> I did not criticize you. I criticized your opinion. I called it a Mickey Mouse one.




Mocking another poster is seen by most as a personal attack on that poster. So is describing another poster as being either ignorant or else misrepresenting facts to further some malicious hidden agenda.

It can be a fine line as to what constitutes a personal attack, so it's best to err on the side of politeness.

Attack the content of the posts, not the poster.




Nitro said:


> Yeah, but did you call them, "Silly, Half Assed and not to be taken seriously"?




Don't know that I ever used that exact formulation in describing a Harley. Can recall referring to H.D. as "trash for cash" and "rolling junkpile" and "ripoff." This was after Harley owners had referred to my Honda as "kiddie cart" and "riceburner." I don't go around trying to pick fights with other bikers, if that's what you're asking.




Nitro said:


> Most people don't buy Harley's for their reliablity, but that's another topic.




Most people don't buy a Harley to experience being stranded out on the road by a breakdown, either. That used to happen far too often with even low-mileage Harleys.

(As I said earlier, these days Harley has cleaned up its quality control and is building better bikes. Horrible quality control and reliability nearly bankrupted the company a few years back.)


.


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## Nitro (Jun 22, 2007)

ringzero said:


> Attack the content of the posts, not the poster.


Ok, the content of your posts are "Silly and not to be taken seriously".



> Don't know that I ever used that exact formulation in describing a Harley. Can recall referring to H.D. as "trash for cash" and "rolling junkpile" and "ripoff." This was after Harley owners had referred to my Honda as "kiddie cart" and "riceburner." I don't go around trying to pick fights with other bikers, if that's what you're asking.


Obviously, you're having trouble understanding my point. Let me ask you this. Were you insulted when they called your bike a "kiddie cart" and "riceburner."?


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## BB (Jun 22, 2007)

Oh look, over there... a pretty birdie.


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## ringzero (Jun 26, 2007)

Nitro said:


> Ok, the content of your posts are "Silly and not to be taken seriously".




Obviously, the content of my posts was taken seriously enough by you to respond to them.

Obviously, attempting polite discourse with you is a total waste of time.

Obviously, you aren't interested in serious discussion, but only want to trade insults. I decline. (Besides being a violation of CPF rules, swapping insults is a juvenile waste of time.)




Nitro said:


> Obviously, you're having trouble understanding my point.




Obviously, it makes no difference whether I understand your point or not, because I'm not wasting any more time on you.

.


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## R11GS (Jun 26, 2007)




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## Nitro (Jun 26, 2007)

ringzero said:


> Swapping insults is a juvenile waste of time.



You are correct, and I apologize if I offended you in any way.


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## dano (Jun 26, 2007)

Nitro and Ringzero...ENOUGH....take it somewhere else. 



--dan


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## thezman (Jun 26, 2007)

Fenix.

Thread title.

Just wanted to make sure somebody said Fenix on page 5. :duck:


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## Matt Sutton (Jun 26, 2007)

My L2D is my favorite light. I don't think it's perfect and there's other lights that do certain things better, but it's combined features make it one of the overall best lights out there.

BTW welcome to to the forum, Eye.


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## fieldops (Jun 27, 2007)

I like Fenix for the following reasons:

1. Reasonable price

2. Company responds quickly to customer input on new lights

3. Company produces lights in a timely manner (to say the least)

I like them because I feel we are a part of the process in their evolution of new lights. They are also a good deal for the money and work reasonably satisfactory. I am not saying that they are as good as Surefire or the like (How could we expect them to be at well under $100.00). I think Surefires are built for a particular purpose with everything made to maximize that usage. Fenix lights are for more general purpose use. 

To answer the original question..... yes I think they are an excellent buy.


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## Sarratt (Jun 27, 2007)

I can see this thread being closed/banned/erased... but in its favour may I argue that it should continue. It lets us all see the true nature of our friends.
Riders or not.

Personally my Fenix is great I won't tell you what model but I love it.
Yes its a bit more money ..... but then again you could buy one less coffee for a month 
:thumbsup:


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## Sarratt (Jun 27, 2007)

dano said:


> Nitro and Ringzero...ENOUGH....take it somewhere else.
> 
> 
> 
> --dan




ooooo where lemmie see lemmie see 

Guys ...pick your fights , don't let them pick you.

Relax ... it's not about 'rides' .... you wanna pick on me ?... Fine 
Motorcycles are deathtraps. They are LOUD and annoying to the rest of us. Why do you need to go 300kmh ? 
Isn't a scooter better?
:hahaha::hahaha:

(without looking ---I wannnnnnna go-fast bike ....1000 Honda)


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## Burgess (Jun 27, 2007)

Gotta' hurry --

Let me post my opinion here, before this thread gets closed. 


Fenix flashlights are a *good choice*. For lotsa' situations.

(i know, i currently own 6 of 'em)


But the real *advantage* of buying Fenix is this . . . .


- - The fantastic service and support of* Fenix-Stores.com* (Dave, aka 7777)


The *manufacturer* provides a "less than comprehensive" warranty on their product. 


Can't overstate how *fortunate* Fenix (the mfr.) is to have Fenix-Store (7777) as a dealer.

Dave's "first-class" business policies are to be admired.

He always stands behind the Fenix products.

*Even more so* than the manufacturer. :sigh:


Even if the item in question was bought from somebody ELSE ! :twothumbs


That's gotta' give Fenix an extra "boost" in the marketplace.

Especially amongst us CPF'ers.

:goodjob:


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## peekay331 (Jun 28, 2007)

Fenix is great. Put it this way, if Fenix could get away with selling a $100-150 light like Surefire, and maintained its quality/price ratio, it'd be a hella lot better light than Surefire.


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## carrot (Jun 28, 2007)

peekay331 said:


> Fenix is great. Put it this way, if Fenix could get away with selling a $100-150 light like Surefire, and maintained its quality/price ratio, it'd be a hella lot better light than Surefire.



Unfortunately, as with everything else, what you get valuewise significantly decreases with price. I can have a $100 knife, or a $300 knife, and the $300 knife will not really cut any better, but it might have smoother action and a more pleasing overall feel. Likewise, a $100 light and a $400 light will probably illuminate equally well, but I'm sure you'd be chuffed to have the $400 light over the former. I can't imagine Fenix ever even making a $100 light, using the current technology they use now. I do like my Fenixes, though.


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## peekay331 (Jun 28, 2007)

carrot said:


> Unfortunately, as with everything else, what you get valuewise significantly decreases with price. I can have a $100 knife, or a $300 knife, and the $300 knife will not really cut any better, but it might have smoother action and a more pleasing overall feel. Likewise, a $100 light and a $400 light will probably illuminate equally well, but I'm sure you'd be chuffed to have the $400 light over the former. I can't imagine Fenix ever even making a $100 light, using the current technology they use now. I do like my Fenixes, though.


 
point well taken, diminishing returns does kick in. my point, though, was that many manufacturers can build a light of Surefire's quality (or better) if they were able to charge SF prices. After all, flashlights aren't exactly rocket science. 

I think SF is akin to Harley Davidson. Even if other manufacturers, e.g. Honda, Yamaha, Suzuki, etc., could build as good, or better of a bike, there will still be diehard HD fans who will still take potshots at the other bikes and look down on everything else.


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## Marion David Poff (Jul 2, 2007)

Ok, cool....

Fenix are good lights, for what they are...

Surefire are good lights, for what they are...

Fenix are Surefire killers if you want runtime and lumens foremost.

Surefire hold their value with other people do to the intangibles, which some do not see.

So, my buddy will probably get Fenix.

I will stay with Surefire. I will justify it by saying that I am buying American products....

: )

Marion David Poff

PS - I have never held a Fenix, but this whole click, turn, unclick, 1/4 turn, double click, 1/2 turn, reverse double spin back kick routine kinda turns me off, already.....


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## BMRSEB (Jul 3, 2007)

Just to be different, LumaPower..


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## LightJaguar (Jul 3, 2007)

Everytime I show/give my buddy a new light he always brings up his surefire and how it was superior. He had some $30 cheap plastic, incandescent type. I'm not even sure if it even was a surefire since he lost it long ago and I was never able to see it. He also holds his Gerber LX1 in high steem. When I showed him my Fenix L2D-CE his comments were, "wow it's bright!", "it might even be as bright as my Gerber light!":laughing::laughing::laughing:
Goes to show how people think about the things they own.


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## Chao (Jul 4, 2007)

Just out off the topic, I am trying to find the very old, original fenix L1 thread, it may be posted by the designer from china, maybe at late 2005? I can't found it, anyone remember this thread? thanks.


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## big beam (Jul 4, 2007)

I just got my 1st fenix(P3D) light about 1 mo. ago.I like it a lot and the OP reflector on the SE lights I'm sure will become a regular feature.I have a few surefires but I don't use them much because they cost so much and I don't want to loose them.I love the L4s I have but at 175 bucks I would be depressed if I lost one.If I loose a 50.00 fenix oh well.The runtime with 17670's in the L4 is a little short too.
DON


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