# Fire Foxes IV FF4



## mhemling33

Today I contacted Fire-Foxes about where to purchase an FF3 and how much are they....

They will upgrade FF3 to FF4 in April. And FF3 is not stock now. FF4 will include 3 hand-switch mode(24W、40W and 60W). The size and price will be the same with FF3.

If this is already known then I am sorry for wasting a thread. Also I saw the GB price for the FF3.... will there be one for these 

UPDATE** 
They hope to keep the price at $290 or less shipped WW. This is not a GB price they can't tell me more because production is not in full swing yet and they don't know what the cost will be. They also said maybe they can find a reseller in the US.... If any one has interest in being a reseller i'll connect you to the person who I have been talking too. 

I am sorry guys but I do not feel comfortable running a GB :sigh:.... but i will keep names updated in the OP until one is officially created and the names can be transferred. I will help out in any way and continue to communicate with the person from Fire-Foxes.

If you want to be added just say I'm in

GB LIST
mhemling33
Lumens Industry
arglergle
jmpaul320
walterr839
Bullet Bob
Hoop
stollman
wingsnole
karstghost
Teej
bxstylez
​


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## n2deep

Lets keep this thread updated so I can know when and where to order one! :devil:


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## mvyrmnd

Manual power selection sounds awesome


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## BVH

I would guess there will still be a thermal sensor for auto power reduction as there is on FF3.


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## hron61

BVH said:


> I would guess there will still be a thermal sensor for auto power reduction as there is on FF3.




Indeed.
If they get toasty warm with 40w, guess how hot it will be with 60w?

I wonder if it will come with a free oven mitt? :thumbsup::thumbsup:


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## mhemling33

So I asked what the price will be and where i can purchase them from and i was asked how many sets i wanted
​I only need one but I was wondering what group buy price he would give. What would be a good amount to say for a GB of these just to see what he can offer.


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## KuanR

I would be interested in one, I hesitated to buy the ff3 because it was only single mode.


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## badtziscool

Subscribed. I've always wanted an FF3 until they were recently sold out. Now with FF4 with the same form factor and size, but with multiple outputs??? Sounds like a no brainer. I just hope the output and tint will be similar to the FF3. If it is, then we have a definite winner.


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## Colonel Sanders

Subscribed too. 

Random thoughts...

24w selection is very good. At the 24w level I tested the FF3 at 90k+ cp and about 2000L. That's waaaaaaaaaaay more than enough for most tasks and it'll be nice to be able to select that level manually.

The 60w level, though neat and welcomed, should be very short lived before thermal kickdown if the 40w FF3 is of any indication.

What the FF3 needed more than more power is more reflector. It makes plenty of lumens (easily more than 4000 OTF by my measurements), it just spreads them out a lot. I hope the FF4 will have a little better throwing reflector though it sounds like it will be about the same size.

A side clicky would be awesome! :thumbsup:

A tinsy bit more length in the battery tray would be nice.


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## BVH

Colonel Sanders said:


> Subscribed too.
> 
> Random thoughts...
> 
> 24w selection is very good. At the 24w level I tested the FF3 at 90k+ cp and about 2000L. That's waaaaaaaaaaay more than enough for most tasks and it'll be nice to be able to select that level manually.
> 
> The 60w level, though neat and welcomed, should be very short lived before thermal kickdown if the 40w FF3 is of any indication.
> 
> What the FF3 needed more than more power is more reflector. It makes plenty of lumens (easily more than 4000 OTF by my measurements), it just spreads them out a lot. I hope the FF4 will have a little better throwing reflector though it sounds like it will be about the same size.
> 
> A side clicky would be awesome! :thumbsup:
> 
> A tinsy bit more length in the battery tray would be nice.



I agree with CS to all those mods. They would be most welcome. If he goes with a SMO reflector, that will go a long ways towards improving throw without having to increase the diameter. Maybe Lips will point him to this thread?


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## skeeterbait

Build the battery holder to work with all protected 18650 cells without having to clip springs and I'm a buyer.


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## Fibo

That sounds great.....
I have my FF3 since a few Days and the Light is very impressive for its Size......
If the FF4 is available it will be something like a Reflex if i push the Order Button;-)


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## sledhead

Very interesting.... GB sounds good.


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## Patriot

I would be interested as well but with a reflector this size, it really needs to be smooth. I "get" the small set-up which is one of the things that sets this light apart, so I wouldn't necessarily be in favor of increasing the size. I'm guessing we'll only be getting about 3 min runtime at 60W before stepdown though...lol. Still, It's kind of cool that it will do it.


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## Fresh Light

Good to hear that this is going to be HID. I think last I heard ma_sha had some translation that it was going to be more like a hotwire. Sounds like something that I might be interested in, especially if they keep that similar color temperature.


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## Lumens Industry

I'm in!
Sent from my RM-820_nam_att_100 using Board Express


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## BVH

I know it will go absolutely nowhere but i just have to say it....i wish he'd use a 5000K - Diamond White lamp. Or be a real pioneer and use a 4750K lamp.


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## argleargle

FF 4: I want in on the GB, if there is one. Failing that, where do we sign up?


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## cchurchi

I'll definately be getting one of these if they make the battery mag work with protected cells.


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## 3Cylinders

I just got an FF3 and I'm still waiting on my batteries to arrive so I can fire it up, but I'm ready to buy the FF4 if the color temp is the same. I also agree with Colonel Sanders' mods. Offering a holster or leather protective carrying case would also be nice. (And a battery lock-out function if there isn't already one).


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## BVH

cchurchi said:


> I'll definately be getting one of these if they make the battery mag work with protected cells.


 Just curious why you want to use protected cells in this when full battery protection is already incorporated into the carrier?


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## Ray-o-light

Yep, I'll be picking one up. Hope it has a smooth reflector too!


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## Patriot

BVH said:


> Just curious why you want to use protected cells in this when full battery protection is already incorporated into the carrier?



Serious question Bob, because I'm not as electronically minded, would it matter if protected cells were used, as long the cell protection circuits were less aggressive than the protection built into the carrier? If I understand correctly, the battery protection would never have to kick in if the carrier did it first, thus the cells just acting as a back-up to the primary protection. One of the things I like about cell protection is the build in temperature circuit in each individual cell. 

Thanks buddy.


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## slow2go

It would be great to keep this thread going , maybe we get some type of pre-order.
Current specs. and pricing on the new model would be nice.


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## BVH

Patriot said:


> Serious question Bob, because I'm not as electronically minded, would it matter if protected cells were used, as long the cell protection circuits were less aggressive than the protection built into the carrier? If I understand correctly, the battery protection would never have to kick in if the carrier did it first, thus the cells just acting as a back-up to the primary protection. One of the things I like about cell protection is the build in temperature circuit in each individual cell.
> 
> Thanks buddy.



Paul, No, it wouldn't matter in function. Not that I am an expert in this but depending on the specs of the two different protection circuits, one would kick in before the other with the same end result. In both cases, (as far as the Low Voltage Cutoff {LVC} function) it's just a circuit that is attached to a bare cell for cell protection. So given the fact that - 1, One has to nearly butcher the carrier by cutting and nearly eliminating the negative end springs, 2, The danger of ripping the cell wrapper and creating a dead short are greatly increased, 3, the protected cells cost more than bare cells, and 4, Protection already exists (and probably much more sophisticated protection) -- why use protected cells? The light is not designed to use protected cells. My guess is that the LVC on the carrier is more conservative than the individual cell circuit and therefore, the cell circuit would never be used. And you really don't want to rely on the individual cell circuit for normal shutdown because it is so low - 2.5 Volts, or so, that it will shorten the life of the cell upon regular tripping. Individual cell protection circuits are not really designed to be used as a normal end of charge notification whereas, IIRC, the built-in FF circuit is. It might even be that the higher LVC (again, I believe it is) of the carrier might be designed to protect the ballast from too low an input Voltage. But a lot of what I said is really neither hear nor there because the carrier LVC probably cuts power long before the individual cell circuit does. It just goes back to why spend more, ruin the carrier and probably ruin the cells and increase your chances of a dead short trying to get them in and out without ripping the wrapper.


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## Patriot

BVH said:


> No, it wouldn't matter in function. Not that I am an expert in this but depending on the specs of the two different protection circuits, one would kick in before the other with the same end result. In both cases, (as far as the Low Voltage Cutoff {LVC} function) it's just a circuit that is attached to a bare cell for cell protection. So given the fact that - 1, One has to nearly butcher the carrier by cutting and nearly eliminating the negative end springs, 2, The danger of ripping the cell wrapper and creating a dead short are greatly increased, 3, the protected cells cost more than bare cells, and 4, Protection already exists (and probably much more sophisticated protection) -- why use protected cells? The light is not designed to use protected cells. My guess is that the LVC on the carrier is more conservative than the individual cell circuit and therefore, the cell circuit would never be used. And you really don't want to rely on the individual cell circuit for normal shutdown because it is so low - 2.5 Volts, or so, that it will shorten the life of the cell upon regular tripping. Individual cell protection circuits are not really designed to be used as a normal end of charge notification whereas, IIRC, the built-in FF circuit is. It might even be that the higher LVC (again, I believe it is) of the carrier might be designed to protect the ballast from too low an input Voltage. But a lot of what I said is really neither hear nor there because the carrier LVC probably cuts power long before the individual cell circuit does. It just goes back to why spend more, ruin the carrier and probably ruin the cells and increase your chances of a dead short trying to get them in and out without ripping the wrapper.




Ok this all makes sense, other than I didn't realize that protected cells are more prone to ripping the wrapper than not protected cells. Since I'm running protected cells in all of these different 3 & 4 x 18650 LED lights that should use protected cells, even though the lights have a low voltage cut-off. I just don't have many unprotected cells left these days and the ones that I have are starting to get a bit dated. I know that the FFIII drew a lot of interest from people out of the LED crowd and like me, they might have only a few or perhaps zero unprotected cells in their inventory. From that perspective, it's always nice to be able to use what you already have, which is why I was curious. 

All of this said however, the FFIII can still use protected cells?


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## BVH

Patriot said:


> Ok this all makes sense, other than I didn't realize that protected cells are more prone to ripping the wrapper than not protected cells. Since I'm running protected cells in all of these different 3 & 4 x 18650 LED lights that should use protected cells, even though the lights have a low voltage cut-off. I just don't have many unprotected cells left these days and the ones that I have are starting to get a bit dated. I know that the FFIII drew a lot of interest from people out of the LED crowd and like me, they might have only a few or perhaps zero unprotected cells in their inventory. From that perspective, it's always nice to be able to use what you already have, which is why I was curious.
> 
> All of this said however, the FFIII can still use protected cells?



Yes, you can use them if they will physically fit lengthwise after having cut most of the negative spring off, leaving a much smaller contact area and a sharp point. Therein lies the reason for my comment on tearing the wrapper. At least with the FF3, the + buttons in the carrier are flat and have sharp edges. With the extra length of the protected cells, unless you really take the time with each and every cell, to get a good hold on the top of the cell, push it as hard as you can to 100% fully compress the spring and then carefully watch as you skoot the cells' outer case under and past the sharp button edge, you WILL tear it. And the same goes for extracting it. With the tiny plastic cutout on the carrier for your finger to compress the cell, it's easy to not get a good grip on it when removing it and end up with a torn wrapper. It's not really a matter of IF you're going to tear a wrapper as much as it is WHEN you're going to tear one.


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## cchurchi

BVH said:


> Just curious why you want to use protected cells in this when full battery protection is already incorporated into the carrier?



Protected cells are all I've got.


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## BVH

cchurchi said:


> Protected cells are all I've got.



Understood! You just have to be willing to cut most of the negative spring off.


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## Patriot

BVH said:


> Yes, you can use them if they will physically fit lengthwise after having cut most of the negative spring off, leaving a much smaller contact area and a sharp point. Therein lies the reason for my comment on tearing the wrapper. At least with the FF3, the + buttons in the carrier are flat and have sharp edges. With the extra length of the protected cells, unless you really take the time with each and every cell, to get a good hold on the top of the cell, push it as hard as you can to 100% fully compress the spring and then carefully watch as you skoot the cells' outer case under and past the sharp button edge, you WILL tear it. And the same goes for extracting it. With the tiny plastic cutout on the carrier for your finger to compress the cell, it's easy to not get a good grip on it when removing it and end up with a torn wrapper. It's not really a matter of IF you're going to tear a wrapper as much as it is WHEN you're going to tear one.




oh, okay. Thanks for getting me up to speed Bob. See, I just didn't know enough about the current situation with the FFIII with the cut spring and the wrapper's tearing but it all makes sense now. If one is going to own the FFIII, like you stated, it just flat out makes sense to just order some unprotected cells rather than certainly ruining existing ones.

That's why I ask you buddy!


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## BVH

Happy to offer up my experiences!


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## jmpaul320

Subscribed! I'm in for a gb!


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## walterr839

count me in for one


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## LuxLuthor

Patriot said:


> oh, okay. Thanks for getting me up to speed Bob. See, I just didn't know enough about the current situation with the FFIII with the cut spring and the wrapper's tearing but it all makes sense now. If one is going to own the FFIII, like you stated, it just flat out makes sense to just order some unprotected cells rather than certainly ruining existing ones.
> 
> That's why I ask you buddy!



Patriot/BVH, you both know how "rabid" I am about Li-Ion safety, and I carefully studied the internals of the FF3, battery holder, and did repeated run times, and frequent removal and checking voltage of cells (which I numbered to keep in same holder position which can affect total resistance and drain) before feeling comfortable using the unprotected Panasonics in my FF3. There is also a whole other level of quality starting with that brand (vs. *crap*-Fire Li-Ion brands).

As far as tearing the label, it is always a good idea to seal the split, tear with a dab of 5 min epoxy or clear fingernail polish to avoid progression, and the far more serious internal short against the body tube. Nothing wrong with using quality protected cells either for extra protection. If you remove most of the contact spring, take a few seconds to sand down the sharp remaining edge and fold it down with needle-nose pliers.

I got an email/PM from Lips to sign up for the FF4 GB he is running over at Flashlight-Forums.com which is nice of him to do once again.

I'm trying to figure out how this FF4 output compares to the FF3. 

Man, has that FF3 been an awesome light to have--especially with candletop standup mode during the 9 days of power outage during Hurricane Sandy when a 60 year old Maple came crashing down into the back of our home and bedroom, followed 5 mins later by power outage...and again for a shorter time during the last 30" snow storm.


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## BVH

Hey Lux! I didn't know you did all that research on the FF3 carrier. Did I miss it or did you not make a thread? I'm hoping the bigg difference for me between my FF3 recently sold and the new FF4 will be the SMO reflector. Even if the FF4 was going to have the same power, I'd buy it just for the SMO. The higher power is jut icing on the cake.


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## jmpaul320

After having some issues with a few cells I only use Panasonic ncr a or b protected cells. The few extra dollars are more than worth it.


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## LuxLuthor

BVH said:


> Hey Lux! I didn't know you did all that research on the FF3 carrier. Did I miss it or did you not make a thread? I'm hoping the bigg difference for me between my FF3 recently sold and the new FF4 will be the SMO reflector. Even if the FF4 was going to have the same power, I'd buy it just for the SMO. The higher power is jut icing on the cake.



I just did it for my own peace of mind, and curiosity. Probably should have posted all my results, but didn't. I have to say that I was a lot more impressed with the FF3 than I was expecting to be. Wouldn't dream of selling it. Hell, for that matter, I don't know if I've ever sold any of my lights. LOL!


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## Bullet Bob

I'm in for one too.


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## mhemling33

updated OP


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## Hoop

I already emailed, and I'm on Lips list, but I'll post too. I'm in for one.


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## stollman

I might be in for one....would like to know the specs first


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## Patriot

Lux, thank you for the feedback man. I know you're a li-ion safety maniac, which is great because anything you own, you've done homework on. Great tips and ideas!

I didn't know you had a tree come through your house and power failures. I guess I better get down the the cafe a bit more often. Sounds like a crazy story. Btw, you should sell one of your lights just so you can say that you have..haha!

I really hope this goes the way of a smooth reflector.


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## LuxLuthor

Just got the last of the "replacement value" insurance check to have all the damage fixed which is half as much as the whole house cost originally!!! If a tree falls down within an inch of your home, there is zero coverage for anything, but if it touches your home, they've got boatloads of money to send you--even including the broken grill, and damaged slate stones in back yard.

I'm not sure if everyone should be updating their name on this list, since Lips is doing a real GB over at FF, like he did with the FireFox 3.


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## mhemling33

I am by no means trying to do a gb or steal anything from lips i was just keeping a list of people that would want in on a gb, then when a member decides to do the GB i can give them a list of members that are already interested. I am not trying to step on anyones toes and i will take it down no questions asked if it is causing any issues.


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## CouldUseALight

Can anyone speak to how loud the FF4 is in operation? :thinking:


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## BVH

I don't believe there are any in the hands of individuals not connected with design and production yet.


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## LuxLuthor

mhemling33 said:


> I am by no means trying to do a gb or steal anything from lips i was just keeping a list of people that would want in on a gb, then when a member decides to do the GB i can give them a list of members that are already interested. I am not trying to step on anyones toes and i will take it down no questions asked if it is causing any issues.



Sorry, I didn't mean it like that...rather was just saying more for informational purposes if people REALLY want to get one, there is the actual GB list on the other forum they should know about.


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## wingsnoles

LuxLuthor said:


> Sorry, I didn't mean it like that...rather was just saying more for informational purposes if people REALLY want to get one, there is the actual GB list on the other forum they should know about.


 Im for one also!!


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## warmurf

Any further update on when this will be available?


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## BVH

I've seen nothing contrary to the April anticipated date.


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## KarstGhost

Count me in please.


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## TEEJ

Sigh



OK, I'm in.

BTW - What about 18650 IMRs?


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## bxstylez

count me in for one as well


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## BeastFlashlight

I want in on the GB, what is the email/link please?


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## mhemling33

BeastFlashlight said:


> I want in on the GB, what is the email/link please?



http://flashlight-forums.com/index.php?topic=13795.0


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## BeastFlashlight

Just so I don't mess up anyone's list i didn't go thru with emailing Lips, I thought it over I'm not an HID person


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## mhemling33

BeastFlashlight said:


> Just so I don't mess up anyone's list i didn't go thru with emailing Lips, I thought it over I'm not an HID person



You have nothing to worry about lips is just an interested list for now then when he find out price, time frame, etc it will become an official GB. as for my list it is nothing at all really lol I am just notifying people where his list is pretty much  no need to apologize!


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## kcsr.org

I was browsing for HID lights on ebay tonight, and eventually wound up in this thread. Based on what I've read so far, it looks like the FF IV is going to be the best bang for the buck right now. Is there anything else comparable that is worth considering?


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## Colonel Sanders

*"Is there anything else comparable that is worth considering?"*

The closest thing would be the FFIII of which there are a couple up for sale right now for around $250.


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## kcsr.org

Thanks for the reply and 411, Colonel. I think I'll hold out for the FF4.


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## Stereodude

BVH said:


> Just curious why you want to use protected cells in this when full battery protection is already incorporated into the carrier?


Does the carrier put the batteries in series or parallel?


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## jmpaul320

Series


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## Stereodude

jmpaul320 said:


> Series


So does the carrier have a protection IC that monitors the voltage of each cell to ensure none of them get below ~2.8V? Or does it just monitor the entire pack's voltage and assume the cells are perfectly matched and will discharge uniformly and stay balanced?


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## jmpaul320

My guess is it monitors the packs total voltage but I am not sure- maybe another owner can chime in?


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## mvyrmnd

jmpaul320 said:


> My guess is it monitors the packs total voltage but I am not sure- maybe another owner can chime in?



Correct. My FFIII (for the brief time I owned it) cut off at 12V - leaving all cells at ~3V.


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## Stereodude

mvyrmnd said:


> leaving all cells at ~3V.


Maybe, if the cells are well matched (internal resistance & capacity) and the carrier has equal resistance to each cell.


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## Patriot

Stereodude said:


> Maybe, if the cells are well matched (internal resistance & capacity) and the carrier has equal resistance to each cell.




Full battery protection is already incorporated into the carrier per BVH in post #21. I'm guessing that "Full" mean individual cell protection but BVH could give details. I believe it's dicussed in the FF3 thread as well.


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## BVH

Clarification - I don't know if individual cell protection is incorporated into the carrier.


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## mvyrmnd

Stereodude said:


> Maybe, if the cells are well matched (internal resistance & capacity) and the carrier has equal resistance to each cell.





Mine were all new cells. If you're running Li-Ion in series you really should be using well matched cells to save yourself from


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## TEEJ

There are almost no multi-cell lights that monitor/balance each cell individually...ZL S6330 for example. The rest rely on YOU using cells with the same internal resistance, state of charge, etc.


For some high amp lights, especially when the lights don't have cut-off regulation, etc, I might use IMR's instead of std li-ions to both maximize the amp support and reduce the


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## Patriot

If it doesn't have individual cell monitoring I'm probably back to my original thought that I wouldn't use this light with unprotected cells. I was under the impression that the carrier monitored the voltage of each cell and would shut off output voltage in the case of a cell short. At lease with individual cell protection you're provided that last measure of protection especially in the case of temperature monitoring. Hopefully the FF4 won't have the carrier spring issue that risked tearing the battery wrapping. Maybe this is already the case but I would think the FF4 would be designed from the outset with the ability to use a wide variety of the latest, high capacity, protected cells.


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## BeastFlashlight

TEEJ said:


> For some high amp lights, especially when the lights don't have cut-off regulation, etc, I might use IMR's instead of std li-ions to both maximize the amp support and reduce the


TEEJ thanks for the IMR recommendation u gave me! I notice IMR batteries don't say 'Protected' on them, so do I have to worry about running them down too far? You say IMR won't go 'Poof', that's great that they won't explode but can I still ruin them if I run them till failure in a light without cut-off regulation?


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## BVH

Patriot said:


> ..................... I was under the impression that the carrier monitored the voltage of each cell and would shut off output voltage in the case of a cell short.



Paul, IIRC, the carrier does provide "Short Circuit" protection. Maybe not for individual cell internal shorts, but cumulatively for external shorts and it will provide the same reaction - to shut down output upon short circuit detection - (most likely a high Amp draw sensor). And realize that even a fully protected cell - if "internally" shorted, will continue to burn/smoke/vent because the protective circuit cannot have any effect on an internal short. The carrier also provides over discharge protection, again cumulatively but if you are using good Panasonic cells, chances are pretty good if they are charged in the same charger, they will end up at a voltage very near one another when the carrier cuts off. If the carriers' circuit is cutting off at 12 cumulative Volts (3 Volts per cell) under load, then I think even with some differences between cells, it would be fairly difficult to run any one cell down below 3.3 recovered Volts - well within the safe operating range of Lithium Ion cells. Even if one ends up at 3.0, it's still fine. Lastly, a good charger is going to provide over-charge protection. So what has been gained by using "protected" cells? I ask this genuinely because I'd like to hear from others more knowledgeable than myself. I can think of one thing - If you were to scrape the cell wrapper upon inserting or removing and it shorts, then maybe the individual cell circuit would trip.


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## TEEJ

BeastFlashlight said:


> TEEJ thanks for the IMR recommendation u gave me! I notice IMR batteries don't say 'Protected' on them, so do I have to worry about running them down too far? You say IMR won't go 'Poof', that's great that they won't explode but can I still ruin them if I run them till failure in a light without cut-off regulation?



As with most cells, if you over discharge them, it at least shortens their life.

With IMR's in direct drive lights for example, when they are noticeably dimming, I end the cycle assuming they are running down. If the light has cut-off circuitry, it will typically turn off before over discharging the cells.


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## BeastFlashlight

Ok thanks, easy enough i wouldn't wanna keep running it when it was dimmer anyway


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## CouldUseALight

BVH said:


> So what has been gained by using "protected" cells?



In practice, what I gained was interchangeability of the batteries with other lights that _need _protected cells. 

Cutting the batt carrier springs had no apparent effect on performance and allowed me to NOT buy 4 new unprotected cells to run the light, saving about $45.


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## Patriot

BVH said:


> . So what has been gained by using "protected" cells? I ask this genuinely because I'd like to hear from others more knowledgeable than myself. I can think of one thing - If you were to scrape the cell wrapper upon inserting or removing and it shorts, then maybe the individual cell circuit would trip.




I know that you always inquire genuinely, and it's normally me gleaning knowledge from you...haha!  

Well, IF it has Short Circuit protection that's a different story. This is good! Whether that's voltage triggered, as in the case of cell suddenly dropping to 0 volts, or high amp draw triggered as in the case of a cell delivering less voltage but pulling way more current than it's supposed to. My only reservation would be the verification of the carrier's short circuit protection. No doubt, the fact that it's "only" a four cell light, working within a rather shallow voltage range greatly minimizes risk. Likewise, the electrical path of the carrier itself IIUC, would eliminates the possibility of a reverse charge situation. And as you stated, using high quality cells and chargers takes care of the starting voltages. 

I once had a unprotected Sanyo cell that would actually charge and read over 4.1V at rest but when a 1.0A load was applied, it would drop to under 3.0V and start to get hot. I'm not even sure exactly what was happening but I suspected an internal short that was occurring only under load, something I didn't even know was possible on a single cell. When the load was removed, the cell would cool and the voltage would rebound. A battery circuit would prevent this from happening. IF the FF3/4 carrier has this protection and it's verifiable, that's good enough for me. IF it's uncertain that it has short circuit protection I'd "feel" much better using protected cells. "Feel" being the operative word, based on my very basic understanding.


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## LuxLuthor

I tried taking out the 4 tiny set screws that hold top of holder circuit board and contact plate out. They look to be 1.3 or 1.4mm hex, but they were already stripped when I started. No way to verify the level of specific protection without seeing what's under that battery holder "hood," but I would seriously doubt it is all that sophistocated beyond open circuit. Certainly once you get inside the head of the light it is just a +/- contacts, and that's more likely where the overdischarge protection that BVH reports is controlled from.

No question that IMR gives another level of non-protected reassurance. Despite being an ardent protected Lithium Cobalt chemistry proponent, this is one light that I'm going balls to the walls with the non-protected green Pannies. I stop running when body gets hot, and don't push it beyond the dimming--except once during Hurricane Sandy when a tree crashed into the bedroom, and high wind driving rain, leaves, glass all over what used to be our master bedroom, I had bigger fish to fry. So far using the same 4 cells, and at least 20 run cycles, the voltages continue match after charging, and after coming out of the light once discharged. Lowest voltage I have gotten them down to is 3.3V. I watch these cells carefully, including any wrapper damage leading to a dead short into the body tube. I realize I would feel better if they were protected or IMR's, and like BVH posed, your charger should be doing balance tap charging to eliminate that risk. 

There's not likely as much risk with such a high quality cell, and if you take the time to verify starting and ending voltages and don't push the light to extreme temps/exhaustion cutoff, I'm reasonably comfortable even though these are Lithium Cobalt and used in series.


----------



## Stereodude

Lips posted that it does not have individual cell protection. The carrier also isn't going to get any longer. Apparently, Fire-Foxes thinks that the >8A startup current draw it too high for most protected cells.


----------



## TEEJ

Stereodude said:


> Lips posted that it does not have individual cell protection. The carrier also isn't going to get any longer. Apparently, Fire-Foxes thinks that the >8A startup current draw it too high for most protected cells.



They would be correct I think.


----------



## Stereodude

TEEJ said:


> They would be correct I think.


But there are high quality protected cells that would be fine under those conditions, and frankly speaking non high quality unprotected 18650 cells aren't keen on high amperage discharge loads either.

Fire-Foxes is saving a little money by not taking the cell protection as far as they could. But, since they're located in China they're pretty well isolated from any legal issues related to their decision. I'm really interested in the FFIV, but I'm not sure I can get over the battery situation. You either give up run time to use safer IMR cells. Roll the dice with unprotected cells, or modify the battery carrier and risk physical damage to protected cells squeezing them in and out of the light.

I'm not aware of any mainstream consumer electronics gear that uses multiple Li-Ion cells in such a cavalier manner and they aren't using the cells as harshly the FFIV does.


----------



## Patriot

Stereodude said:


> But there are high quality protected cells that would be fine under those conditions, and frankly speaking non high quality unprotected 18650 cells aren't keen on high amperage discharge loads either.



That's the thing that really "gets" me. As you stated, "Fire-Foxes thinks that the >8A startup current draw it too high for most protected cells" but is that really the case? They've designed the light around this notion however I feel as if 8A wouldn't really be a problem in the case of most of the current generation protected Pannie's. Even 2900mah generation cells are tripping at 3.9 - 5.8A I suspect that today's 3400mah cells have their protection circuits set to around 6.8A.





> *LuxLuthor
> *I tried taking out the 4 tiny set screws that hold top of holder circuit board and contact plate out. They look to be 1.3 or 1.4mm hex, but they were already stripped when I started. No way to verify the level of specific protection without seeing what's under that battery holder "hood," but I would seriously doubt it is all that sophistocated beyond open circuit. Certainly once you get inside the head of the light it is just a +/- contacts, and that's more likely where the overdischarge protection that BVH reports is controlled from.
> 
> No question that IMR gives another level of non-protected reassurance. Despite being an ardent protected Lithium Cobalt chemistry proponent, this is one light that I'm going balls to the walls with the non-protected green Pannies. I stop running when body gets hot, and don't push it beyond the dimming-



Thanks for trying Lux. I do appreciate you digging into this for us. The protection circuitry isn't really all that different from today's, high draw LED's like the TM26, TK75, and others. The only difference is that all of those manufacturers specifically say to use ONLY protected li-ion cells. In taking this position, they're moving the light from hobby grade to nearly fool proof. FireFox has basically waved that last fence of protection essentially saying, "here ya go, hope you know what you're doing!" Fortunately, I suspect that every person on the order list is a light junkie and they understand lithium cobalt safety. I'm perfectly cool with that actually (other than it doesn't match my preference) and I could never be accused of being a safety Nazi, unlike LuxLuthor...lol. I say that with admiration for your knowledge on this subject, buddy. 

With that stated, I would have preferred that FF simply made the light 3-4mm longer and designed it to use 67-70mm protected cells. They've already increased the head length and diameter in the FF4, so what would have been the big deal with making the battery and carrier another 3-4mm longer in order to make it compatible with the most popular cells? I say this with the assumption that any quality, protected, four cells should be able to handle the 8A start up load, however it is speculation since I've no way to prove or disprove this notion, or even if the start up load is actually 8A.


----------



## Stereodude

Patriot said:


> That's the thing that really "gets" me. As you stated, "Fire-Foxes thinks that the >8A startup current draw it too high for most protected cells" but is that really the case? They've designed the light around this notion however I feel as if 8A wouldn't really be a problem in the case of most of the current generation protected Pannie's. Even 2900mah generation cells are tripping at 3.9 - 5.8A I suspect that today's 3400mah cells have their protection circuits set to around 6.8A.
> 
> I say this with the assumption that any quality, protected, four cells should be able to handle the 8A start up load, however it is speculation since I've no way to prove or disprove this notion, or even if the start up load is actually 8A.


The Keeppower 3400's don't trip until 11.5A per HKJ's review. Their 3100's trip at 10.8A. AW 3100's trip at 9.3A. All signs point to the there being a fair selection of protected cells that will work just fine.


----------



## cchurchi

Looks like I'll be clipping the springs, sanding the sharp burr off,and slightly folding the end of the spring down like I did on the FF3. 

If you do these things perfectly without removing too much material, and insert the batteries from the bottom just right (only half inserting the bottom of the battery so the top has a better approach angle to clear the top terminal) then protected batteries should work well with the FF4 - current concerns not withstanding.


----------



## Colonel Sanders

*"I tried taking out the 4 tiny set screws that hold top of holder circuit board and contact plate out. They look to be 1.3 or 1.4mm hex, but they were already stripped when I started."*

A couple of months ago I took mine apart so that I could tighten the carrier posts back up that had gotten loose. They thread through little brass nuts _inside_ the heart of the carrier. It was hard to do with the allen head screws being so small. Mine, fortunately, weren't stripped.

There was some electro-gizmo stuff in there that I dared not touch and I had no idea what I was looking at. I wish I'd taken a picture while I was in there.


----------



## Patriot

Stereodude said:


> The Keeppower 3400's don't trip until 11.5A per HKJ's review. Their 3100's trip at 10.8A. AW 3100's trip at 9.3A. All signs point to the there being a fair selection of protected cells that will work just fine.



There you go! This is enough proof to me that Fire-Foxes either just assumed that protected cells wouldn't work or knew protected cells would work and chose to design the light for unprotected cells for other reasons. My opinion is that the better route would have been to design it with protected cells in mind, just like the 4 x 18650 multi-LED lights available to us. I'm not complaining about it because 'it is what it is' but I can't help but to ask the "why" question when trying to dig at the root of these issues.


----------



## LuxLuthor

I can't explain their thinking without being in their heads, but they don't operate in a litigious crazed society. As such, it would make sense to assume people buying these lights are more knowledgeable and careful than your average K-Mart/Walmart flashlight shopper. I can see a logic in saving additional design feature expenses (they already invented their holder, with all the molds and assembly equipment), a preference for reduced form factor size, and their assuming that most lithium cobalt dangers come from charging which should be done externally with a quality balance tap charger. They throw in a couple of generic safety protections, and they're good to go for their intended customer. I can imagine in their target markets that most of the LiCo 18645 cells alone do not recommend 8A drain; nor would they have PTC's that allow 8A protection before tripping open. Listing Keepower & AW's brands is an extremely small share of the available ICR-18650-P market.


----------



## Patriot

...and that's a great point Lux. I can't really guess what a 4mm longer tube and carrier would have cost. Even it if wasn't a lot it would have cost something. They've really managed to keep the price down which is a huge bonus for this light. FF3 owners span from very satisfied to ecstatic so it makes a certain amount of sense to leave things as is. The FF3 was obviously a marvelously performing light at a great price. It's seems the FF4 will follow in its footsteps, even if not matching perfectly to every enthusiasts wishes.


----------



## TEEJ

Patriot said:


> ...and that's a great point Lux. I can't really guess what a 4mm longer tube and carrier would have cost. Even it if wasn't a lot it would have cost something. They've really managed to keep the price down which is a huge bonus for this light. FF3 owners span from very satisfied to ecstatic so it makes a certain amount of sense to leave things as is. The FF3 was obviously a marvelously performing light at a great price. It's seems the FF4 will follow in its footsteps, even if not matching perfectly to every enthusiasts wishes.



A big push is to be compact in size. It may be as simple as being more compact if it only had to fit shorter cells.

It may be no more complicated than that.


----------



## Patriot

TEEJ said:


> A big push is to be compact in size. It may be as simple as being more compact if it only had to fit shorter cells.
> 
> It may be no more complicated than that.




Yeah, I certainly believe that's possible, especially in the case of the FF3. What LuxLuthor touched on makes a lot of sense as well.


----------



## Dave_5280

I'm in


----------



## tatasal

A dealer of the FF4 has just listed a price of $289, shipped, in its website (though currently out-of-stock).

How much would the group buy price probably be? Months ago I checked with this dealer and they had the FF3 at $270, less 10%.


----------



## Stereodude

I found the $50 FFIII battery carrier more interesting than the FFIV price.


----------



## KuanR

Could someone please pm me the link for the dealer that has the FF4?


----------



## derfyled

KuanR said:


> Could someone please pm me the link for the dealer that has the FF4?



Same here if someone can help...


----------



## KuanR

awesome, thanks to everyone for PMing me the link lovecpf


----------



## hron61

im in for one.


----------



## BeastFlashlight

I'm in!


----------



## biglights

Stereodude said:


> That's not useful for anyone in the US. It seems Omni Lighting (Lips) is the exclusive "agent" for the US. He hasn't announced his group buy price yet.



I would hope that his price would be similar or less. He does have a lot more than the 20 people that where needed for the other price.


----------



## Stereodude

biglights said:


> I would hope that his price would be similar or less. He does have a lot more than the 20 people that where needed for the other price.


I wouldn't expect that.


----------



## TEEJ

Is there more than one group buy?

Its getting confusing.


----------



## Stereodude

TEEJ said:


> Is there more than one group buy?


Apparently there are at least two so far...

"Bill" @ DoingOutdoor has a GB for people outside of the US @ $210 (excluding shipping). He needs 20 people to get that price.

"Lips" @ Omni Lighting has a GB (worldwide) with no price set but has ~75 people on the interest list


----------



## Stereodude

TEEJ said:


> Unless its just using some of Lip's stuff in it?


Someone just re-posted the same images Lips did.


----------



## TEEJ

Yeah, that's it all right.

OK, so, Lips for USA lights, and Bill for anywhere else?


----------



## tatasal

TEEJ said:


> Yeah, that's it all right.
> 
> OK, so, Lips for USA lights, and Bill for anywhere else?



At the moment, it appears to be what is hapenning...Bill can send only to geographically outside of USA.


----------



## Stereodude

tatasal said:


> At the moment, it appears to be what is hapenning...Bill can send only to geographically outside of USA.


I don't think it's just for the moment. "Lips" has a monopoly on the US market courtesy of Fire-Foxes. No other dealers are allowed to ship to the US.

I'm interested in the light, still not thrilled about the battery situation though. I will be curious to see the ultimate disparity in pricing.


----------



## Blueknight

I know that probably other forums have GB's,but I would think that limits the number they could sale. Does the company not care about that so few will be sold? Even tho it's not my concern,it seems like the company could make more money by selling to individuals instead of GB's.


----------



## tatasal

Stereodude said:


> I don't think it's just for the moment. "Lips" has a monopoly on the US market courtesy of Fire-Foxes. No other dealers are allowed to ship to the US.
> 
> I'm interested in the light, still not thrilled about the battery situation though. I will be curious to see the ultimate disparity in pricing.




Well that explains it.


----------



## Stereodude

Blueknight said:


> I know that probably other forums have GB's,but I would think that limits the number they could sale. Does the company not care about that so few will be sold? Even tho it's not my concern,it seems like the company could make more money by selling to individuals instead of GB's.


You got me... I guess the theory is that people in the US who want a FFIV will buy it from the exclusive US authorized dealer at whatever price it is since no one else is allowed to ship to the US resulting in no lost sales. Ultimately, whether that works out or not will depend on the price (in the US and elsewhere).


----------



## n2deep

IM IN!!! Someone let me know by sending me a message please.


----------



## tatasal

Does anyone here know the Lips (USA) FF4 price already?


----------



## BeastFlashlight

I just got an email from Flashlight-torch.com that I can now pre-order FF4, $270 and the beginning of May is the time frame given. I didn't order since Lips has the GB


----------



## tatasal

Got my share of email from same supplier but @ $289.


----------



## TEEJ

Flashlight-torch's website lists the FF4 as a pre-order item for $270, right now.

So anyone off the street can get one for $270, w/o a group buy. The GB price should therefore be a lot lower.





It also lists a spec sheet that describes it as having an ANSI range of ~ 1,600 meters (That works out to 640k cd)...and 4k EMITTER lumens. 

http://flashlight-torch.com/firefoxesff4firefoxiv4-p-68.html


----------



## Colonel Sanders

TEEJ, like the pictures on that page, the stats appear to be of the FF3, not the FF4.


----------



## archimedes

Colonel Sanders said:


> TEEJ, like the pictures on that page, the stats appear to be of the FF3, not the FF4.



Yeah, IIRC the _FF3_ tested at >4000 lumens OTF in a sphere ....

http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb...s-comparison&p=4041526&viewfull=1#post4041526


----------



## BeastFlashlight

So FF3 is 640K cd, FF4 gotta be very close to Deft-X! Talk to us Lips, let me do what I do best and blow money. Flashlight-torch.com took forever to offer pre-order I suspect Lips won't be far behind them


----------



## Patriot

TEEJ said:


> It also lists a spec sheet that describes it as having an ANSI range of ~ 1,600 meters (That works out to 640k cd)...and 4k EMITTER lumens.




It should be substantially more than 4K bulb lumens.


----------



## TEEJ

Patriot said:


> It should be substantially more than 4K bulb lumens.



I was just quoting the specs listed, which might be re-used FF3 specs, etc...but that's what the site lists for the FF4.

They say ANSI for range, but not for lumens.

If the specs are FF3 but listed as FF4 erroneously, well, I guess we'll need to wait for updated FF4 specs.


----------



## Fresh Light

TEEJ said:


> It also lists a spec sheet that describes it as having an ANSI range of ~ 1,600 meters (That works out to 640k cd)...and 4k EMITTER lumens.



I says 6000+ Lumens now for ff4, but I still don't get the specs for the ff3 that are listed at the bottom showing clearly about 40W and 1,600m. The FF3 has been verified to be in the 225k lux range. I don't know what they are calculating at 1600m, must not be .25 lux?


----------



## TEEJ

Fresh Light said:


> I says 6000+ Lumens now for ff4, but I still don't get the specs for the ff3 that are listed at the bottom showing clearly about 40W and 1,600m. The FF3 has been verified to be in the 225k lux range. I don't know what they are calculating at 1600m, must not be .25 lux?



It may be Chinese Lux.


----------



## Patriot

Hard to know what to make from the specs but with the larger 79mm head, smooth reflector and 60W, it could potentially reach 600k+ lux which would translate to 1600 odd meters @ .25 as TEEJ stated.


----------



## Fresh Light

I'm rooting for at least 500k lux out of this, but more is always a good thing. The this is the chart that says 1600m for the ff3.


----------



## BeastFlashlight

Patriot said:


> ...with the larger 79mm head...


Ya gotta love it!


----------



## jessieboi

tatasal said:


> A dealer of the FF4 has just listed a price of $289, shipped, in its website (though currently out-of-stock).
> 
> How much would the group buy price probably be? Months ago I checked with this dealer and they had the FF3 at $270, less 10%.


How the Lips GB price?
is there any where I can buy it now?


----------



## Stereodude

Need more updates!


----------



## BeastFlashlight

jessieboi said:


> How the Lips GB price?
> is there any where I can buy it now?


I don't think u can get it NOW anywhere, if you're just growing antsy and really need to click a 'Submit order' button you can pay $270 at flashlight-torch.com but it won't ship until the beginning of May


----------



## tatasal

The GB pre-orders I organized with Bill at [email protected] at $210 plus freight of the FF4 is almost a go at nearly 20 pre-orders, but only for non-USA residents. If fact, we have been making arrangements with what courier I prefer through emails just awhile ago. FYI


----------



## rufus001

tatasal said:


> The GB pre-orders I organized will [email protected] at $210 plus freight of the FF4 is almost a go at nearly 20 pre-orders, but only for non-USA residents. If fact, we have been making arrangements with what courier I prefer through emails just awhile ago. FYI


Looks like yours is the only group buy left. http://www.fire-foxes.com/


----------



## Stereodude

rufus001 said:


> Looks like yours is the only group buy left. http://www.fire-foxes.com/





Fire-Foxes said:


> Statement about the USA user to buy fire-foxes
> "Omni Lighting" is only designated dealer in USA, any other channels to purchase products can't enjoy after-sales or warranty.
> The group buy at flashlight-torch.com without permission, will be considered invalid.



Are they saying it's invalid for US residents, or for everyone worldwide though?


----------



## tatasal

Stereodude said:


> Are they saying it's invalid for US residents, or for everyone worldwide though?



Please get in touch with [email protected] for all your concerns. I proposed this group buy to Bill hoping to give us all interested in the FF4 a good value for our money. As to the mechanics and the geographical restrictions, freight, and other concerns that are coming into play, it is beyond me already.


----------



## rufus001

Stereodude said:


> Are they saying it's invalid for US residents, or for everyone worldwide though?



I'm guessing the whole group buy but Lips probably has more info.


----------



## Stereodude

tatasal said:


> Please get in touch with [email protected] for all your concerns. I proposed this group buy to Bill hoping to give us all interested in the FF4 a good value for our money. As to the mechanics and the geographical restrictions, freight, and other concerns that are coming into play, it is beyond me already.


I'm in the US so there's no point in contacting Bill. This whole thing is hilarious to me. How can Fire-Foxes prevent a vendor from having a group buy? They can play games with their vendors all they want, but what's the difference between flashlight-torch having a "group buy" (which they only ever called a pre-order) and just selling the product? Apparently the former is a no-no, but the latter is okay.

I'm guessing it won't be too long before Bill gets shut down too at the rate this debacle is unfolding.


----------



## tatasal

Stereodude said:


> This whole thing is hilarious to me.




Hilarious it is. For three days Bill has not answered my emails (I thought this GB thing has gone kaput) only to suddenly get a reply from him asking me about my courier of choice because he is nearing the 20 pre-orders and that he was sorry for the late reply for he was quite busy learning how to drive!


----------



## tatasal

I just received a reply from Bill about factory warranty. He said his lights has warranty from the factory and is estimated to be delivered between May 5 and 10, barring any unforeseen circumstance.


----------



## tatasal

Minimum number of units for pre-order has been exceeded.


----------



## Bumble

tatasal said:


> Hilarious it is. For three days Bill has not answered my emails (I thought this GB thing has gone kaput) only to suddenly get a reply from him asking me about my courier of choice because he is nearing the 20 pre-orders and that he was sorry for the late reply for he was quite busy learning how to drive!



maybe he was thinking about personally delivering them at one point.... lol


----------



## tatasal

FF4 shipping rates list to most countries (light not sold to USA residents) now available at doingoutdoor.com


----------



## Dave1988

Guys, I just stumbled across this thread and am very keen to buy one.. Is it too late? I can PayPal right away!


----------



## BVH

If in the US, there's an interest list here:

http: //flashlight-forums.com/index.php?topic=13795.0


----------



## sal415

I'm in


----------



## Fusion_m8

A week out from the release date and nobody has a photo of the FF4??? Does the FF4 really exist or are we being taken for a ride?


----------



## tatasal

Fusion_m8 said:


> A week out from the release date and nobody has a photo of the FF4??? Does the FF4 really exist or are we being taken for a ride?



Yeah, but at least there is some artist sketch floating around.....maybe FF is taking the Apple Iphone route in their release of this light.

Bill has informed me pictures will be uploaded when he gets it within 10 days after May.


----------



## tatasal

Bill has informed me that the projected release of the FF4 has been moved from 15th to 20th of May.


----------



## tatasal

Look at this: (courtesy of SHINE)

http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?361456-FF4-VS-FF3&p=4199705#post4199705


----------



## KuanR

My FF4 has just arrived from Doing Outdoor, the batteries are charging. I can't wait till sunset....but it's summer right now and it doesn't get completely dark till past 10pm


----------



## Quickstrike

KuanR said:


> My FF4 has just arrived from Doing Outdoor, the batteries are charging. I can't wait till sunset....but it's summer right now and it doesn't get completely dark till past 10pm



So, how is the light?


----------



## rufus001

Amazing. Over 6500 lumens possibly.


----------



## KuanR

I commented on the other FF4 thread. This thing is bright! Throws very far with a big spill. The anodizing on mine is perfect. The light feels very solid and well built. Only things I don't like are you can't get into 60w mode for at least after 30 seconds of being on, once you leave 60w mode you can't get back in until you turn the light off first, and it starts on 40w mode.


----------



## amaretto

Look at this comparison between Polarion PH50 and FF4 we did yesterday. Thanks to Manu for beamshots.
FF4 is brighter but PH50 has (a bit) more throw because of the bigger and deeper reflector.

http://abload.de/image.php?img=ph50-ff4mtu3y.gif


----------



## BVH

Is the FF3 in 60 Watt mode or 40 Watt in the above comparison?

When i scrutinize the most distant objects, to me, the FF3 is throwing further or at least the most distant objects are brighter.


----------



## jalal20

I just tested my FF4 and its amazing, I scared my neighbors 
I have a question though, is it ok to switch between 25 and 40W multiple times?


----------



## amaretto

It was FF4 in 60W mode. Here it is in 40W:

http://abload.de/image.php?img=ph50-ff440w3wu61.gif


----------



## KuanR

BVH said:


> When i scrutinize the most distant objects, to me, the FF4 is throwing further or at least the most distant objects are brighter.



That's what I see too. Even if the FF4 throws less, I'm super happy with it, especially seeing it comes so close to the PH50 even if the FF4 can only run at that brightness for 3 minutes before step down


----------



## tatasal

Looking at the far end of photos of what look like shorter plants, for me the PH50 slightly outthrows the FF4 in 40W mode, but at 60W the FF4 wins it.


----------



## mhemling33

KuanR I am pretty jealous not gonna lie!

I am waiting for the second batch to come out because of the user interface issues of having to turn the light off to get back into 60w mode. Hopefully they can/will fix it! waiting 30 seconds to go to 60W isn't an issue for me but after that I want to be able to switch to it when I need to.


----------



## BVH

mhemling33 said:


> ...................I am waiting for the second batch to come out because of the user interface issues of having to turn the light off to get back into 60w mode. Hopefully they can/will fix it! waiting 30 seconds to go to 60W isn't an issue for me but after that I want to be able to switch to it when I need to.



I'm not convinced yet that they "can" be changed with current hardware and it if they can, that they will change anything. My guess is there's more of a chance that it will not change than it will change. If it doesn't change, I don't think I'll buy one. 60 Watt mode is almost useless and I've already had an FF3 so an FF4 with SMO at the same Wattage is not worth it for me.


----------



## Stereodude

BVH said:


> I'm not convinced yet that they "can" be changed with current hardware and it if they can, that they will change anything. My guess is there's more of a chance that it will not change than it will change. If it doesn't change, I don't think I'll buy one. 60 Watt mode is almost useless and I've already had an FF3 so an FF4 with SMO at the same Wattage is not worth it for me.


It's got a microcontroller in there giving it the current UI. Changing the UI / restrictions should just be a matter of changing the software. Whether they will or not is another issue.


----------



## mhemling33

BVH said:


> I'm not convinced yet that they "can" be changed with current hardware and it if they can, that they will change anything. My guess is there's more of a chance that it will not change than it will change. If it doesn't change, I don't think I'll buy one. 60 Watt mode is almost useless and I've already had an FF3 so an FF4 with SMO at the same Wattage is not worth it for me.



I don't have an FF3 to be content with so I might just have to buy a FF3s lol



Stereodude said:


> It's got a microcontroller in there giving it the current UI. Changing the UI / restrictions should just be a matter of changing the software. Whether they will or not is another issue.



I was actually wondering how it was set up. Is this something that we could flash a custom firmware too? I know it would void warranty and all that but in theory we could change the UI to what we want then.


----------



## JetskiMark

amaretto said:


> Look at this comparison between Polarion PH50 and FF4 we did yesterday. Thanks to Manu for beamshots.
> FF4 is brighter but PH50 has (a bit) more throw because of the bigger and deeper reflector.



Thank you for the beamshots gif.

Seeing that the FF4 comes close to the performance of the PH50, for a fraction of the size and price, makes me want one even more.

I will buy one if the ridiculous UI is changed to one that makes sense for an HID.


----------



## Patriot

I agree with BVH, the most distant objects still seem to be brighter with the 60W mode on the FF4.

Gosh, how did that UI slip through the cracks though?:huh::duh2:


----------



## Stereodude

mhemling33 said:


> I was actually wondering how it was set up. Is this something that we could flash a custom firmware too? I know it would void warranty and all that but in theory we could change the UI to what we want then.


If you know what microcontroller is on the board, yes it is possible (assuming they didn't pot the whole PCB).


----------



## Stereodude

Patriot said:


> Gosh, how did that UI slip through the cracks though?:huh::duh2:


Well, that's because the light is a rush to market job.


----------



## one2tim

BVH said:


> I'm not convinced yet that they "can" be changed with current hardware and it if they can, that they will change anything. My guess is there's more of a chance that it will not change than it will change. If it doesn't change, I don't think I'll buy one. 60 Watt mode is almost useless and I've already had an FF3 so an FF4 with SMO at the same Wattage is not worth it for me.


Bvh, the ff4 have much better heat sinking then the ff3. My ff4 don't get hot at 40w where the ff3 got really hot. I would say running continously on 60w would be possible without the ff4 getting too hot.


----------



## RichS

I just got my FF4 and I have to jump in here in regards to the UI decision...I already took some pics and beamshots vs. my FF3 and will post shortly.

One of the first things I did was to check out the UI and the limits on the 60W mode. I put it on 60W mode and timed it - it did indeed kick down after exactly 3 minutes. It was very warm when it kicked down, but I left it on and put it in 24W mode to see if I could get it to cool down. I spent some time holding the light completely with my hands (acting as a heat sink), to see if it would cool down to the point of letting me put it back in 60W mode, but of course it never did (most likely due to the programming).

So, I turned it off and set it down - lens up. When I picked it up a few minutes later to see if the lens was still hot, the battery tube was very warm at that point, so a lot of heat had traveled down from the head to the battery tube. It was noticeably warmer than a few minutes earlier, and hot enough that I was concerned about the batteries getting over-heated.

The bottom-line (IMO), is that this light is too small to run at 60W for any length of time. The designers were *smart* to include a 3 minute limit and force a shut off so the light could cool down. Not doing so would put the user at risk, since the amount of heat build-up cannot be shed fast enough, even when the light is running at a lower wattage. 

The fact that this little light puts out 60W of HID power for 3 minutes is phenominal! I am more than happy to own a light of this size that puts out even more light than a Polarion PH50 which I will most likely never own. More than that, it is at a size that is convenient enough to actually use, not to mention the ability to switch levels which adds to the practicality. Truth is, the 40W is probably too much power for long runs even with the extra heft of the FF4, but I love having it as an option when needed, and even the 60W if absolutely necessary. 

Trust me, I had all the same concerns with the UI until I actually tried out the light and discovered the heat that this thing generates at 60W. Now I just think we all need to get real and understand the limits here and the importance of safety when dealing with a tube stuffed with high capacity li-ions, and be happy that they figured out a way to stuff 6,000+ lumens into this little beast!!


----------



## Lips

RichS said:


> I just got my FF4 and I have to jump in here in regards to the UI decision...I already took some pics and beamshots vs. my FF3 and will post shortly.
> 
> One of the first things I did was to check out the UI and the limits on the 60W mode. I put it on 60W mode and timed it - it did indeed kick down after exactly 3 minutes. It was very warm when it kicked down, but I left it on and put it in 24W mode to see if I could get it to cool down. I spent some time holding the light completely with my hands (acting as a heat sink), to see if it would cool down to the point of letting me put it back in 60W mode, but of course it never did (most likely due to the programming).
> 
> So, I turned it off and set it down - lens up. When I picked it up a few minutes later to see if the lens was still hot, the battery tube was very warm at that point, so a lot of heat had traveled down from the head to the battery tube. It was noticeably warmer than a few minutes earlier, and hot enough that I was concerned about the batteries getting over-heated.
> 
> The bottom-line (IMO), is that this light is too small to run at 60W for any length of time. The designers were *smart* to include a 3 minute limit and force a shut off so the light could cool down. Not doing so would put the user at risk, since the amount of heat build-up cannot be shed fast enough, even when the light is running at a lower wattage.
> 
> The fact that this little light puts out 60W of HID power for 3 minutes is phenominal! I am more than happy to own a light of this size that puts out even more light than a Polarion PH50 which I will most likely never own. More than that, it is at a size that is convenient enough to actually use, not to mention the ability to switch levels which adds to the practicality. Truth is, the 40W is probably too much power for long runs even with the extra heft of the FF4, but I love having it as an option when needed, and even the 60W if absolutely necessary.
> 
> Trust me, I had all the same concerns with the UI until I actually tried out the light and discovered the heat that this thing generates at 60W. Now I just think we all need to get real and understand the limits here and the importance of safety when dealing with a tube stuffed with high capacity li-ions, and be happy that they figured out a way to stuff 6,000+ lumens into this little beast!!






Richs

I don't think it's the 3 minute limit that's at issue as you have to have a limit due to size and 4 batts. Optimize the UI by eliminating the restarts, wait for warm up, switch modes then go to... and allowing multiple visits to 60w (as that's how most practical use will be) still keeping time and heat protections intact... I think all doable and should make for a better experience. I believe the design has long term staying power so better to bite the bullet and do it sooner than later.


----------



## RichS

Lips said:


> Richs
> 
> I don't think it's the 3 minute limit that's at issue as you have to have a limit due to size and 4 batts. Optimize the UI by eliminating the restarts, wait for warm up, switch modes then go to... and allowing multiple visits to 60w (as that's how most practical use will be) still keeping time and heat protections intact... I think all doable and should make for a better experience. I believe the design has long term staying power so better to bite the bullet and do it sooner than later.



Right - I understand it's the mandatory shut-off that is at issue, not necessarily the 3 minute limit. My point was, I think the designers knew that people would most likely use the full 3 minutes at 60W, and at that point the only way to cool it down and avoid over-heating the batteries would be to shut it down (not just lower the wattage). At least this is my perception based on how hot the battery tube got after the 3 minute run..


----------



## Stereodude

RichS said:


> Right - I understand it's the mandatory shut-off that is at issue, not necessarily the 3 minute limit. My point was, I think the designers knew that people would most likely use the full 3 minutes at 60W, and at that point the only way to cool it down and avoid over-heating the batteries would be to shut it down (not just lower the wattage). At least this is my perception based on how hot the battery tube got after the 3 minute run..


It's still an easy fix in the microcontroller. Keep track of how long the 60W mode has been used and prevent the user from exceeding 3 minutes of 60W every 10 minutes (or whatever). It's pretty trivial to do that sort of thing in software.


----------



## Patriot

Stereodude said:


> It's still an easy fix in the microcontroller. Keep track of how long the 60W mode has been used and prevent the user from exceeding 3 minutes of 60W every 10 minutes (or whatever). It's pretty trivial to do that sort of thing in software.




Still, I'd prefer a active thermal regulation. If the light is above a certain (PROPERLY) predetermined temperature, it wouldn't allow advancement to a higher output and or step down to a lower output level. Below that critical temperature, let it run as long as you want, given it stays below the critical temp. That is to say, if I'm in Alaska in the winter time, let me run the light 'full bore' until the batteries are dead.


----------



## amaretto

@RichS
I am 100% with you. It's not possible to run this little light at 60W more than a few minutes. Then it *must *cool down for safety. As it is designed its relatively safe even when used by careless owners. If you want 50-60W for continuous operation or more often, buy a Polarion. But then you have to accept 3 times the size and 6 times the price.

It's not only the light itself. Even the batteries heat up because of the high current. At 60W the FF4 draw >5A (imho). Therefore do not run 60W with 4x 18650 only (in series!) for long time.

Regarding its size and price, i know any other flashlight with this output. At 24W it is as bright as a Fenix TK75 on turbo, at 40W it beats the Nitecore TM26 on turbo! For that matter i need no 60W but i'll take the 60W burst as an extra.

FF3 vs. FF4: if FF4 had no 60W option i would buy it though because of more throw and mode switching.

Last but not least it is way too cheap to be perfect.  No matter how it is designed, it never could fulfill everyone's wishes.


----------



## ma_sha1

Am I the only one that prefer the FF3's look than the FF4? The bigger head & fins starts to look ebay HIDish, and the shorter body looks awkward on the FF4. 60W is way over it's head on both heat and non IMR battery. 

I'd rather buy a FF3 -V2, same FF3 body, 40W but SMO + 2 modes. Shine, if you really want to through a 60W mode in there, , then make it MaxaBeam style Turbo 30" only but repeatable trggering w/o shut-off.

Bring back the FF3 body!


----------



## Stereodude

Patriot said:


> Still, I'd prefer a active thermal regulation. If the light is above a certain (PROPERLY) predetermined temperature, it wouldn't allow advancement to a higher output and or step down to a lower output level. Below that critical temperature, let it run as long as you want, given it stays below the critical temp. That is to say, if I'm in Alaska in the winter time, let me run the light 'full bore' until the batteries are dead.


Well, that could be implemented to. The light may already have that capability. Doesn't it step down from 40W to 24W when it gets too hot?


----------



## amaretto

Stereodude said:


> Doesn't it step down from 40W to 24W when it gets too hot?


yes, it steps down.


----------



## 3Cylinders

amaretto said:


> yes, it steps down.


 Yes, but the question is does it step down when it gets too hot, or just when it hits a 3 minute(or so) timer? If it's thermally regulated, then that's much better since it's actively protecting itself. A timer can limit use at the higher modes when it doesn't need to and also not step down soon enough (running at 60W in the middle of the Desert in August for instance). 
At this point, I almost think the 60W mode should be a momentary switch that can't be locked on. Press and hold the side button and it goes to 60W only as long as you hold it (or 3-5 minutes or thermal stepdown, whichever comes first), then it automatically steps back down even if you're still holding the button. If you let off the button prior to the stepdown, it goes back to the last mode you were in.


----------



## archimedes

ma_sha1 said:


> ....I'd rather buy a FF3 -V2, same FF3 body, 40W but SMO + 2 modes....Bring back the FF3 body!



This would be exactly my preference, too 

I would rather have a FF3 (40W) + 24W mode (only), than FF3 (40W) + 60W mode (only)....


----------



## Lips

FF4 has thermal regulation also and will step down from either 40w or 60w to 24w if temp reaches 55c. The temp kick-down was reduced from 65c on the FF3... Also if <10% battery detected the light will go into protection mode and not allow 60w... The added mass and fins to head allow about double the run-time at 40w before thermal regulation kicks in... Handle which adds more mass also being made. 

For practical use having the ability to use the 60w file on demand and without stepping over poo poo is important. Stereo mentioned a way with timed way or you could use double click or any number of ways. Say your cruising along at 24w on a walk. Your at around 2.5 amps with plenty of heat and batt management for this light. Some tiny single cell 18650 xml lights run at 3 amps... You want to max light something up down the road for 20 seconds, go to 40w or 60w. If you hit 60w for a short time once and want to do it again you have to turn light off-restart-switch to 24w-press and hold to go to 60w again. 60w in a small package is not meant to run for long durations so go for multiple runs at 60w. Keep the time limits and safety controls so inexperienced user can't over run the light. You run the light for the 3 full minutes at 60w it's going to be too hot to use and no battery left... Nice that you can do that but not practical... If you go with 8 or 12 battery extension tubes at some point the UI has to change anyway... JMHO


----------



## Patriot

Lips said:


> FF4 has thermal regulation also and will step down from either 40w or 60w to 24w if temp reaches 55c. The temp kick-down was reduced from 65c on the FF3... Also if <10% battery detected the light will go into protection mode and not allow 60w... The added mass and fins to head allow about double the run-time at 40w before thermal regulation kicks in.




Outstanding! Great to hear that it's not timed!:twothumbs

In theory, an Antarctic explorer would be able to run the light continuously at 60W as long as it doesn't reach 55c.

With regards to some of the FF3 comparisons, of course there was a size increase but I think the FF4 picked up enough output, run-time and throw performance that it should offset most objections. We knew this was going to be a new, updated, addition to the FF series and I can certainly understand they'd want to explore new performance envelopes. Those wanting something smaller can still pick up a FF3 as I've seen them floating around the Marketplace.


----------



## Lips

Patriot said:


> Outstanding! Great to hear that it's not timed!:twothumbs
> 
> In theory, an Antarctic explorer would be able to run the light continuously at 60W as long as it doesn't reach 55c.
> 
> With regards to some of the FF3 comparisons, of course there was a size increase but I think the FF4 picked up enough output, run-time and throw performance that it should offset most objections. We knew this was going to be a new, updated, addition to the FF series and I can certainly understand they'd want to explore new performance envelopes. Those wanting something smaller can still pick up a FF3 as I've seen them floating around the Marketplace.



Paul it's still timed to 3 min on 60w so max run-time without cycling the light is 3min. Running at 60w for a long run is gonna eat the 4 batteries quick since the 18650's so inefficient at those amps. Thermal protection would come in to play if you are in a hot environment with no wind and have ran the light hot at 40w for a while and then go to 60w for 3 min. When sensor hits 55c the light will kick down to 24w between 0 - 3 min somewhere. If you reach 55c even on 40w it will kick down to 24w as on FF3. Changed from 65c (FF3) to 55c (FF4) simply for less heat to the hand... For me the heat is the best argument for being able to go to 60w for less time but more often as you can manage the heat and battery. Still having 3 min runs is ample time at max if you want to run it that long on max and let it cool down on off... I imagine if you had 8 battery pack giving more mass and handle you could run it for as long as you wanted.


----------



## InfinitusEquitas

Hey guys, question for you, are you able to turn the FF4 off using the side button?
I haven't gone through this thread post by post (yet), but have gone through Lip's thread elsewhere, and can't find an answer.
As far as I can tell the UI is as follows;


Tailcap button to create circuit.
Turn on light by using side button. Light turns on into 40W medium mode, takes ~10-20 seconds to stabilize.
Short quick push on side button drops it to low mode ~2000 lumens.
Another short push brings the light back up to medium.
From low only, a longer push (2 seconds) will put the light into the 59W turbo mode.
Light will go into temperature protection after about 3 minutes.
Only way to turn the light off, is using tailcap button.
Considering how bright the light is, I really don't mind being able to only go into High once, but it's extremely annoying to have to use the tailcap to turn off the light every time.
Can one of you please confirm that this is the case?


----------



## RichS

InfinitusEquitas said:


> Hey guys, question for you, are you able to turn the FF4 off using the side button?
> I haven't gone through this thread post by post (yet), but have gone through Lip's thread elsewhere, and can't find an answer.
> As far as I can tell the UI is as follows;
> 
> 
> Tailcap button to create circuit.
> Turn on light by using side button. Light turns on into 40W medium mode, takes ~10-20 seconds to stabilize.
> Short quick push on side button drops it to low mode ~2000 lumens.
> Another short push brings the light back up to medium.
> From low only, a longer push (2 seconds) will put the light into the 59W turbo mode.
> Light will go into temperature protection after about 3 minutes.
> Only way to turn the light off, is using tailcap button.
> Considering how bright the light is, I really don't mind being able to only go into High once, but it's extremely annoying to have to use the tailcap to turn off the light every time.
> Can one of you please confirm that this is the case?



Yes - my FF4 operates the same way - you have to press the tail cap button to turn it off. So you find that extremely annoying? Really??


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## KuanR

RichS said:


> you have to press the tail cap button to turn it off. So you find that extremely annoying? Really??



lol


----------



## InfinitusEquitas

RichS said:


> Yes - my FF4 operates the same way - you have to press the tail cap button to turn it off. So you find that extremely annoying? Really??



To be fair I'm very easily annoyed, and tend to be overly critical.

I am very impressed with the light overall, but yes, I find having to use the rear button to turn off to be irritating. I think it would be nice to be able to cycle the light on and off via just the side switch, after the rear button is pressed.

My only other criticisms of the light are that the lens is not AR coated, the battery tube is a bit too short for comfortable carry, and there is a buzzing noise/whine especially when on Turbo.

If those can be addressed, the extended carrier and handle added, I think it would be a near perfect searchlight. 

Given the price point compared to others I think it's absolutely stunning... it was either this or the RC40 for me, and I'm REALLY glad I got the FF4.

The complaint that people have about having to cycle it off in order to go back into turbo, that to me is not justified. The light does get very hot.


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## warmurf

Every time I power it up all my annoyance at the UI etcgoes out the window. The reaction by some truck drivers at work the othernight when I used it to light up some building and power line tower 300-800metres away was priceless. They could not believe the output of thislight. I think there was a chance of 4 more orders being made the nextmorning.


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## InfinitusEquitas

Would not surprise me at all. The power of this light, in such a small package is phenomenal. Makes the SRK look like a kids toy.

I'm itching for the day when we have comparable results from LED flashlights. I feel we're almost there... not quite but close.


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## Dave_5280

I wonder if they could build a fan into the light to cool it down like the small fans in laptops.


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## tatasal

InfinitusEquitas said:


> To be fair I'm very easily annoyed, and tend to be overly critical.
> 
> I am very impressed with the light overall, but yes, I find having to use the rear button to turn off to be irritating. I think it would be nice to be able to cycle the light on and off via just the side switch, after the rear button is pressed.
> 
> My only other criticisms of the light are that the lens is not AR coated, the battery tube is a bit too short for comfortable carry, and there is a buzzing noise/whine especially when on Turbo.
> 
> If those can be addressed, the extended carrier and handle added, I think it would be a near perfect searchlight.
> 
> Given the price point compared to others I think it's absolutely stunning... it was either this or the RC40 for me, and I'm REALLY glad I got the FF4.
> 
> The complaint that people have about having to cycle it off in order to go back into turbo, that to me is not justified. The light does get very hot.



I don't know if I remember it right but isn't all lights with tail-cap switches is turned-off at this switch, even if it does have a side-switch? (I am speaking from the lights that I have owned, and have read about)


----------



## rufus001

tatasal said:


> I don't know if I remember it right but isn't all lights with tail-cap switches is turned-off at this switch, even if it does have a side-switch? (I am speaking from the lights that I have owned, and have read about)



I have lights with a tail switch and a control ring that can turn them on and off though they still draw a little power. Not sure about a side switch though without checking.


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## rdrfronty

I might be missing it, but has there been any independent testing done on the FF4 yet? I would like to see its lux reading at 10m or more if possible, and of a lumen test. And independent testing by members, not the seller. No doubt the FF4 is impressive, just wondering if its good enough to make me look past the traditional HID downfalls (warm up time) and the weird UI.


----------



## luminositykilledthecat...

So I have an FF4 on order. I have AW 2000mah IMR & Panasonic NCR18650PD at my disposal.
Question is what kind exactly of in built protection does the flashlight have? Does it cut at, say, 12V across all cells? 

I know this has been discussed here and I have read all the posts but I'm just not sure if anyone actually knows for certain _exactly _how it works.

Just wanted to try and clarify this if possible, in the interest of safety for all FF4 owners.

Thanks


----------



## tatasal

Battery-carrier in the "off" mode






Battery-carrier in the "stand-by" mode. The green leds glow through the Green rubber boot. (they say it will shut-off at a certain voltage but I haven't tried it yet)


















When already in the "stand-by" mode, clicking on the Side Switch activates the light into High (40W), another press to go to Low, (24W), then a long press to go to Turbo (60W) if desired.


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## sal415

Where can I buy this light I'm in the us


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## jalal20

I accidently left the light in stand by mode for a couple of days and then I wanted to use it, the light turned on the 40W but with a noise that wasn't there before and when I tried to switch to 60W it shut off, I tested the batteries and they were flat empty so I had to recharge them again. Is it possiblt that just those 2 small leds drained 4 3400 batteries in a couple of days?? anyone else had such an issue?
Now I am making sure that the standby light is off all the time


----------



## tatasal

jalal20 said:


> I accidently left the light in stand by mode for a couple of days and then I wanted to use it, the light turned on the 40W but with a noise that wasn't there before and when I tried to switch to 60W it shut off, I tested the batteries and they were flat empty so I had to recharge them again. Is it possiblt that just those 2 small leds drained 4 3400 batteries in a couple of days?? anyone else had such an issue?
> Now I am making sure that the standby light is off all the time



One way to know is to put charged cells in the carrier, leave it in 'stand-by' mode and monitor through your DMM the voltage consumption in the ensuing days at the + and - contacts of the batt-carrier.

(Nice to know the 'active' batt-carrier is doing its job by shutting off on low-voltage state)


----------



## Lips

Advisable to make sure the rear button is off (no led lit up) and not in stand-by mode when light is stored for non-use. When led is lit on rear button and light is in standby mode it draws 50ma of power. This will drain the batteries down to a low level (probably around 2.5 mah per cell) since there is not much load present. Under load they will not go so low... 4th change that may be helpful - if in standby > 2hr's turn standby off requiring a switch cycle.


----------



## RichS

sal415 said:


> Where can I buy this light I'm in the us


Apparently outside of Lips' group-buy you can't get one if you are in the U.S. The dealers that have these in stock and can ship to the U.S. aren't permitted to for some reason. If someone in the U.S. gets one by way of the group buy, the warranty won't be honored... Is anyone aware of why this company is taking this hard-line stance against U.S. buyers??


----------



## hahoo

RichS said:


> Apparently outside of Lips' group-buy you can't get one if you are in the U.S. The dealers that have these in stock and can ship to the U.S. aren't permitted to for some reason. If someone in the U.S. gets one by way of the group buy, the warranty won't be honored... Is anyone aware of why this company is taking this hard-line stance against U.S. buyers??




yeah, very weird......


----------



## Lips

hahoo said:


> yeah, very weird......




Unprecedented...


Ken Good *Polarion*, Mattk - Battery Junction sl35-70 + etc, Xeray Lemax LX70, Magnalight - many... (HID)


----------



## RichS

RichS said:


> Apparently outside of Lips' group-buy you can't get one if you are in the U.S. The dealers that have these in stock and can ship to the U.S. aren't permitted to for some reason. If someone in the U.S. gets one by way of the group buy, the warranty won't be honored... Is anyone aware of why this company is taking this hard-line stance against U.S. buyers??



Maybe Shine can weigh in on this? I'm thinking he may have some insights as to why they don't want their lights sold to folks here in the U.S.


----------



## Lips

.
.
Richs, lights are and have been available in the USA. You got one already!

You don't want any improvements or changes to the light? 

Can't wait till the train leaves the station as it will be too late...




*Some changes that may make the light more user friendly and a better seller*:

*1.* Allow multiple visits to 60w still keeping the 3 min time limit. (This would allow you to use the 60w brightness and allow the user to control the heat and battery capacity. Also the UI would work with extension 8x battery extension.

*2.* Allow going to 60w from either 24w or 40w. (Now it's set to 24 to get to 60w. This would simplify UI and cut out a step...)

*3.* If possible have a condition that if rear switch is left on for 2 hours without light starting up turn standby off. Standby > 2 turn off. ( This would stop 50ma drain of rear standby switch if you forget to turn it off while light is stored. After a couple of days leaving light in standby mode would run your batteries down too low and shorten their life.)

*4.* Return low voltage blink back to the rear led on rear switch like FF3 (It may not be totally accurate but it does give you and indication that you don't have 4 fully charged and high quality batteries installed. Will give you some indication that you are running low on battery.)


----------



## LuxLuthor

Some great ideas there, Lips!


----------



## JetskiMark

Lips,

Those changes sound good. It would be nice if they could be implemented quickly.

It would also be desirable if the battery carrier could be made a few millimeters longer. I had read about people having trouble with 67mm unprotected button top cells not being able to fit. These days, 18650 lights really need to be able to accommodate cells between 65mm and 70mm.

I think that might help increase the sales of this light. If enthusiasts could use the quality 18650 cells that they already have, without having to cut the carrier springs, they might be more inclined to make the purchase. I am aware of the large current draw and that not all protected cells would be able to handle it.

Thank you for all of the time that you have put into this project so far.


----------



## RichS

Lips said:


> .
> .
> Richs, lights are and have been available in the USA. You got one already!
> 
> You don't want any improvements or changes to the light?
> 
> Can't wait till the train leaves the station as it will be too late...


Lips - that I have one already is not the point. I bought it from a dealer that has them in stock but is not allowed to sell them to U.S. buyers. I'm sworn to secrecy that I bought it from them! What U.S. dealer can you get one from?? Even the front page of the Fire-Foxes website warns about your group buy saying there's no warranty if you buy!

So what am I missing?? Who is selling this light legitimately with a warranty (or not, besides you) to U.S. buyers? I was able to show my friends where they could easily buy an FF3 through an online dealer. Where do I send them to buy the FF4?

In the way of improvements, yes, I agree with your recommendations. They would most definitely make this light even better. But, it's already so amazing at what it delivers in terms of performance, build quality, and even practicality that I almost feel guilty quibbling about the small stuff...


----------



## rufus001

I think the website is referring to other group buys not Lips. He's the guy for the US.


----------



## RichS

rufus001 said:


> I think the website is referring to other group buys not Lips. He's the guy for the US.


Good to know, thanks. I could have sworn it used to reference the one on flashlight-forums where Lips' group buy is! Thanks for correcting me on this. Good to know the FF4 can be purchased via Lips' group buy with a warranty!


----------



## LuxLuthor

Rich, IMHO, if Lips was able to request a nearly exclusive distribution in a geographical market in exchange for taking the risk of a large order and extra repair parts, his initiative should be rewarded and appreciated. This is a typical business practice of various companies picking someone or an existing business to have an exclusive right to sell in their respective country or territory.

In my expierience, Lips has always been a great guy to work with, learn from, and participate in group buys with. Likewise, I think the world of you also, Rich!


----------



## Colonel Sanders

LuxLuthor said:


> Rich, IMHO, if Lips was able to request a nearly exclusive distribution in a geographical market in exchange for taking the risk of a large order and extra repair parts, his initiative should be rewarded and appreciated. This is a typical business practice of various companies picking someone or an existing business to have an exclusive right to sell in their respective country or territory.
> 
> In my expierience, Lips has always been a great guy to work with, learn from, and participate in group buys with. Likewise, I think the world of you also, Rich!



+1 :thumbsup: I agree and I've found it a bit peculiar and unfair to Lips that so many seem to be making a big deal out of it as if he's getting rich at the unfair expense of the helpless. This is a VERY common business practice and without it, I simply wouldn't bother with making these available (*WITH WARRANTY*) to the US market if I were him. Think about it folks, how would you like to make mere pennies on a product due to tight competition and then have to deal with the headache of the warranty issues that may or may not end up being widespread? I wouldn't touch that with the proverbial 120 inch trimmed tree unless there was enough profit potential to make it worth my while.

Handling the warranty issue is a big deal, IMO.

When I buy, it will be from Lips. I'm going to wait a bit to see if there are UI improvements, however.


----------



## rufus001

I agree but sadly some people only think of themselves.


----------



## RichS

LuxLuthor said:


> Rich, IMHO, if Lips was able to request a nearly exclusive distribution in a geographical market in exchange for taking the risk of a large order and extra repair parts, his initiative should be rewarded and appreciated. This is a typical business practice of various companies picking someone or an existing business to have an exclusive right to sell in their respective country or territory.
> 
> In my expierience, Lips has always been a great guy to work with, learn from, and participate in group buys with. Likewise, I think the world of you also, Rich!



Lux - thanks for the bringing this up, because I apparently gave completely the wrong impression with my question and response to Lips! I think it is a great thing that he is doing for the forum with the group buy, and I am sure it is appreciated by many folks. He is obviously doing this out of the goodness of his heart, because he is surely not making much (if any) money on this. Not only that, he is sacrificing a lot of his time which is more valuable than money (to me at least). So, I want to sincerely apologize for even suggesting that I am not appreciative of all Lips' efforts. 

My initial question was truly innocent regarding there were no dealers that are permitted to sell to the U.S. A group-buy in my mind was just that - a group-buy which is facilitated when there is no dealer for a product, or the manufacturer is not willing to sell a low volume of a product. I wasn't looking at Lips as a dealer, but obviously most see him as the dealer/supplier to the U.S.. this is what I think caused some folks to think I was being unnappreciative to Lips (again, sorry for that). If Lips is acting as the sole dealer / provider for the U.S. market, then it makes complete sense that the manufacturer is not permitting other dealers to sell to U.S. consumers to avoid stepping on his toes.

Sorry for the confusion, and Lips - thanks so much for what you're doing!! I'll send my friends who can't live without one of these bad boys your way!

-Rich


----------



## one2tim

I signed up for the FF4 group buy, but 1 day stumbled across a thread in the flashlight forum named: The night reaper - HID series weapons light 

After reading that thread theres no way i would ever! buy a FF4 through the group buy. It really sickens me that someone insists/talks about importing cheap copies of fellow forum members Light creations, and even mock the guy saying he don't give a beep. The even uses his moderator powers to delete unwanted posts. 

If i could not buy the light other places i would rather be without.


----------



## jmpaul320

one2tim said:


> I signed up for the FF4 group buy, but 1 day stumbled across a thread in the flashlight forum named: The night reaper - HID series weapons light
> 
> After reading that thread theres no way i would ever! buy a FF4 through the group buy. It really sickens me that someone insists/talks about importing cheap copies of fellow forum members Light creations, and even mock the guy saying he don't give a beep. The even uses his moderator powers to delete unwanted posts.
> 
> If i could not buy the light other places i would rather be without.



??????????


----------



## LuxLuthor

RichS said:


> Lux - thanks for the bringing this up, because I apparently gave completely the wrong impression with my question and response to Lips! I think it is a great thing that he is doing for the forum with the group buy, and I am sure it is appreciated by many folks. He is obviously doing this out of the goodness of his heart, because he is surely not making much (if any) money on this. Not only that, he is sacrificing a lot of his time which is more valuable than money (to me at least). So, I want to sincerely apologize for even suggesting that I am not appreciative of all Lips' efforts.
> 
> My initial question was truly innocent regarding there were no dealers that are permitted to sell to the U.S. A group-buy in my mind was just that - a group-buy which is facilitated when there is no dealer for a product, or the manufacturer is not willing to sell a low volume of a product. I wasn't looking at Lips as a dealer, but obviously most see him as the dealer/supplier to the U.S.. this is what I think caused some folks to think I was being unnappreciative to Lips (again, sorry for that). If Lips is acting as the sole dealer / provider for the U.S. market, then it makes complete sense that the manufacturer is not permitting other dealers to sell to U.S. consumers to avoid stepping on his toes.
> 
> Sorry for the confusion, and Lips - thanks so much for what you're doing!! I'll send my friends who can't live without one of these bad boys your way!
> 
> -Rich



That's the Rich I know you to be. Well said. :thumbsup:

I think it may be a case of the company in Asia viewing Lips as a Dealer/Distributor/Business Entity status, and then granting him exclusive (or at least protected) reseller/"retail" sale rights, even if he is not in what you and I would think of as a more typical retail dealer/seller. In other words, *they *may not discern a group buy from a typical wholesaler/retailer/dealer. There may be some other cultural nuances at play that neither of us are aware of.


----------



## Lips

one2tim said:


> I signed up for the FF4 group buy, but 1 day stumbled across a thread in the flashlight forum named: The night reaper - HID series weapons light
> 
> After reading that thread theres no way i would ever! buy a FF4 through the group buy. It really sickens me that someone insists/talks about importing cheap copies of fellow forum members Light creations, and even mock the guy saying he don't give a beep. The even uses his moderator powers to delete unwanted posts.
> 
> If i could not buy the light other places i would rather be without.



Tim, you sound emotional about Ken or Polarion. Are you talking about Ken taking the CSWL Night Reaper away from Polarion and making it himself under his brand or Polarion getting mad and selling Polarions without Ken. I'm confused and don't know anything about deleted post...






RichS said:


> Lux - thanks for the bringing this up, because I apparently gave completely the wrong impression with my question and response to Lips! I think it is a great thing that he is doing for the forum with the group buy, and I am sure it is appreciated by many folks. He is obviously doing this out of the goodness of his heart, because he is surely not making much (if any) money on this. Not only that, he is sacrificing a lot of his time which is more valuable than money (to me at least). So, I want to sincerely apologize for even suggesting that I am not appreciative of all Lips' efforts.
> 
> My initial question was truly innocent regarding there were no dealers that are permitted to sell to the U.S. A group-buy in my mind was just that - a group-buy which is facilitated when there is no dealer for a product, or the manufacturer is not willing to sell a low volume of a product. I wasn't looking at Lips as a dealer, but obviously most see him as the dealer/supplier to the U.S.. this is what I think caused some folks to think I was being unnappreciative to Lips (again, sorry for that). If Lips is acting as the sole dealer / provider for the U.S. market, then it makes complete sense that the manufacturer is not permitting other dealers to sell to U.S. consumers to avoid stepping on his toes.
> 
> Sorry for the confusion, and Lips - thanks so much for what you're doing!! I'll send my friends who can't live without one of these bad boys your way!
> 
> -Rich



My apologies to you Rich as it so hard to keep up with all the info even for me. Wish I could have explained it better but tried to stay away from too much of that. It is time consuming and one better have an appreciation and enjoy the technology to take it on. Appreciate the kinds words from those and since I'm around almost everyday for years I better make sure I do it right to keep my butt out of hot water with the guys and gals here!


----------



## Dave_5280

How long can it run at 24 and 40W?


----------



## luminositykilledthecat...

Hey Guys

Some help needed here...
Last night I took my new FF4 out along with my OSTS Modded TN31 (246kcd), first run XM-L version.
I purchased it from flashlight-torch.com.
Trouble is, my FF4 DOES NOT out-throw my TN31? It's more or less about the same throw as the TN31, it lights up _so_ much more in general, but it does not out-throw it.

I am running Panasonic NCR18650PD's, fully charged. I made damn sure that I was using the 60W setting, I am using the UI correctly.
It's just that I have seen pictures of light meter readings for the FF4 showing that it has around 4 times the lux of the Olight X6, so I was expecting it to have more than 246kcd which my TN31 has. 

When shining the FF4 around on a target at about 350m (huge tree line on edge of forest) it does not seem to have a defined hot-spot as such, more or less just one huge, and I mean really really huge! wall of light. So to sum up what I'm seeing with my unit - around 240kcd but rather than a 'hot spot' like my TN31, it just lights up a stupidly large area, but does not actually out throw the TN31.

The bulb on mine is slightly not straight could this be the trouble? Any ideas ?


----------



## oatmanutd

I am not sure that TN31 and TK75 with one is the better thrower but my FF4 with 4 Panasonic 3400mah at 40W and 60W Difinitely out throw my TK75 with 4 Panasonic 3100mah on turbo mode.


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## Fresh Light

Visually, it can be hard to tell which is the better thrower when both lights are so much different. When the LED light is mostly concentrated into a defined hotspot. I had an osts tn31 like yours





and it had a nice dim circular flood and a concentrated hotspot. I think the bright forefront flooding of the FF4 may make it seem less. Only way to know for sure is put measure the lux from several meters back. I won't know the what the characteristics of the FF4 till I get mine probably tomorrow. Can you take a pic of the bulb alignment?


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## LuxLuthor

luminositykilledthecat... said:


> Hey Guys
> 
> Some help needed here...
> Last night I took my new FF4 out along with my OSTS Modded TN31 (246kcd), first run XM-L version.
> I purchased it from flashlight-torch.com.
> Trouble is, my FF4 DOES NOT out-throw my TN31? It's more or less about the same throw as the TN31, it lights up _so_ much more in general, but it does not out-throw it.
> 
> I am running Panasonic NCR18650PD's, fully charged. I made damn sure that I was using the 60W setting, I am using the UI correctly.
> It's just that I have seen pictures of light meter readings for the FF4 showing that it has around 4 times the lux of the Olight X6, so I was expecting it to have more than 246kcd which my TN31 has.
> 
> When shining the FF4 around on a target at about 350m (huge tree line on edge of forest) it does not seem to have a defined hot-spot as such, more or less just one huge, and I mean really really huge! wall of light. So to sum up what I'm seeing with my unit - around 240kcd but rather than a 'hot spot' like my TN31, it just lights up a stupidly large area, but does not actually out throw the TN31.
> 
> The bulb on mine is slightly not straight could this be the trouble? Any ideas ?




My first response to a TN31 XM-L out-throwing a FF4 is preposterous....as in there is something seriously wrong with your FF4. Of course the bulb should always be straight, and if not it may indicate damage has occurred. 

Even taking into account that the tremendous short distance light splash with the FF4 wiping out your night adapted vision to see farther away (like turning on the bright mode of your car headlights in fog), this doesn't make sense. Before you confirm the issue (meaning something defective with the FF4), I would have someone alternatively turn both on and point at a far away target after you have walked down and stood next to. That will eliminate the question of spill blindness.


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## rdrfronty

LuxLuthor said:


> My first response to a TN31 XM-L out-throwing a FF4 is preposterous....as in there is something seriously wrong with your FF4. Of course the bulb should always be straight, and if not it may indicate damage has occurred.
> 
> Even taking into account that the tremendous short distance light splash with the FF4 wiping out your night adapted vision to see farther away (like turning on the bright mode of your car headlights in fog), this doesn't make sense. Before you confirm the issue (meaning something defective with the FF4), I would have someone alternatively turn both on and point at a far away target after you have walked down and stood next to. That will eliminate the question of spill blindness.


Only problem there is your assuming that the FF4 really does throw 450k or 1500m like the manufacturer says. Apparently nobody that owns one has been able to do any independent testing yet. At least not that I've seen. From a few owners observations and from several beamshots posted around, it looks doubtful it can truly throw 1500m. I'm thinking it might be closer to 300k. And there are obviously XML/XM-L2's throwing that far. But I don't own a FF4 and I might be totally wrong on its throw. Hopefully I am wrong. And if I am, I will likely be buying one. Even if it can only do 300k or so, its still a cool little light. 
So somebody needs to do some lux testing at a reasonable distance (not 1-3m) or at least do some long distant beamshots against a serious throwing LED.


----------



## LuxLuthor

Many of us have the FF3 and a number of other cutting edge HID spotlights. So we know what that one can do. We have also seen some photos comparing FF3 to FF4, with the latter soundly trouncing the beejeebies out of its predescessor. There's measurements floating around somewhere but I don't remember which threads. Maybe someday one of us will do some actual comparison measurements. Maybe when I get my DEFT-X.


----------



## BVH

Always hate to see references to small, hand-held lights "throwing 1500 meters/Yards" Utterly ridiculous. Even a Gen3 Maxabeam is pretty much useless at that distance - unless it's on a steady tripod and you're using an 8" or better telescope to view the target.


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## tatasal

I don't know with you guys because I am not as scientific as to caring about the Kcd's or whatever but I am just happy with my FF4 considerably out-throwing and is much brighter than my benchmark TK70. Add in its glorious tint, handy size and beautiful finish, and at about the same acquisition cost, man, this is some serious value-for-money item. This should be a very nice supporting cast to the Deft X!

Nevertheless I'll be waiting for results of your tests.


----------



## Fresh Light

rdrfronty said:


> Only problem there is your assuming that the FF4 really does throw 450k or 1500m like the manufacturer says. Apparently nobody that owns one has been able to do any independent testing yet. At least not that I've seen. From a few owners observations and from several beamshots posted around, it looks doubtful it can truly throw 1500m. I'm thinking it might be closer to 300k. And there are obviously XML/XM-L2's throwing that far. But I don't own a FF4 and I might be totally wrong on its throw. Hopefully I am wrong. And if I am, I will likely be buying one. Even if it can only do 300k or so, its still a cool little light.
> So somebody needs to do some lux testing at a reasonable distance (not 1-3m) or at least do some long distant beamshots against a serious throwing LED.



I plan to test mine. I should have it tomorrow with some luck if the mail works out. The FF3 has been pretty well tested at 225k lux. I have one of those and I would say that that appears to be pretty accurate. The Varapower Turbo 3 I have with the SBT90 has been tested at just a little over 300k lux and about 1700 OTF lumens and it does indeed appear to throw better than the FF3. Saab upgraded one of my DEFTs to 230k lux without changing the driver and it's throw is virtually indistinguishable to that of the 225k lux FF3. So, with about 20W more power than the FF3 the FF4 on turbo should appear to be the best thrower. The lux meter will tell the winner.


----------



## rdrfronty

Fresh Light said:


> I plan to test mine. I should have it tomorrow with some luck if the mail works out. The FF3 has been pretty well tested at 225k lux. I have one of those and I would say that that appears to be pretty accurate. The Varapower Turbo 3 I have with the SBT90 has been tested at just a little over 300k lux and about 1700 OTF lumens and it does indeed appear to throw better than the FF3. Saab upgraded one of my DEFTs to 230k lux without changing the driver and it's throw is virtually indistinguishable to that of the 225k lux FF3. So, with about 20W more power than the FF3 the FF4 on turbo should appear to be the best thrower. The lux meter will tell the winner.


No doubt the FF4 should out throw the FF3. Slightly larger larger and smooth reflector to go along with that extra 20w, certainly will give it an edge. But double of the FF3???
I am curious about your Varapower. Never heard of a SBT90 doing 300k. I thought generally they topped out at about 200k with a big reflector. Is it aspheric? I tried a dedomed SST90 in my SR90 and managed to get about 190k or so from it. After that I got Vinh to put a SBT70 in it. It now does 325k and 1680 OTF lumens. So pretty much what your Varapower does. As I'm sure you know from yours, its pretty darn impressive. 
Anyway, thanks in advance for any test you can do. I'm sure the FF4 is a serious thrower, I just want to know HOW serious before I buy one.


----------



## rdrfronty

BVH said:


> Always hate to see references to small, hand-held lights "throwing 1500 meters/Yards" Utterly ridiculous. Even a Gen3 Maxabeam is pretty much useless at that distance - unless it's on a steady tripod and you're using an 8" or better telescope to view the target.


Throwing 1500m - yes I agree is pretty useless. I've done beamshots with lights I own at 900m. And truthfully, of the 5 lights I had that could reach that distance, tha TN31mb was the only one I, the shooter, could actually see hitting the target which happened to be the side of a mountain. It had a focused enough beam and small enough lumens I could see the spot. The rest put out too much light in front of me to actually see the target. But we had the camera to the side enough that it could see and take photos of the spots ok. But yes even at that distance they were all pretty useless to the light holder.
However, I use these powerful lights simply for fun and as a hobby. So just trying to shoot at long targets and getting proof is 1/2 the fun itself. So sure a 1500 meter thrower would be pretty darn fun to play with. I think the FF4 would be useless as a light anyway. I HATE the warm ups most HId's have. But if it can throw 450k, then it would be impressive enough I could live that downfall.


----------



## TEEJ

BVH said:


> Always hate to see references to small, hand-held lights "throwing 1500 meters/Yards" Utterly ridiculous. Even a Gen3 Maxabeam is pretty much useless at that distance - unless it's on a steady tripod and you're using an 8" or better telescope to view the target.



No one actually MEASURES the throw to 1,500 meters, etc...they all (If they do anything vaguely relevant as opposed to just typing nice marketing claims...) is get the lux at one meter equivalent (cd), and plug in the formula to get 0.25 lux at ____________________ meters. For the searches I do, etc, 400 - 800 meters is pretty useful. A light that hits 0.25 lux at 800 meters is NOT useful to 800 M, or even to 400 M typically. A light that can hit 0.25 lux at 1,500 m will hit 1 lux closer to 750 M, and ~ 4 lux at 375 M, for example. So, its not utterly ridiculous to need a light that can throw 1,500 meters...if by throw, we mean to 0.25 lux.


----------



## LuxLuthor

BVH said:


> Always hate to see references to small, hand-held lights "throwing 1500 meters/Yards" Utterly ridiculous. Even a Gen3 Maxabeam is pretty much useless at that distance - unless it's on a steady tripod and you're using an 8" or better telescope to view the target.



Very true....but us flashaholics have to obssess about something...and by God if we have to bring in an 8" telescope to make our case, so be it! lovecpf


----------



## LuxLuthor

TEEJ said:


> No one actually MEASURES the throw to 1,500 meters, etc...they all (If they do anything vaguely relevant as opposed to just typing nice marketing claims...) is get the lux at one meter equivalent (cd), and plug in the formula to get 0.25 lux at ____________________ meters. For the searches I do, etc, 400 - 800 meters is pretty useful. A light that hits 0.25 lux at 800 meters is NOT useful to 800 M, or even to 400 M typically. A light that can hit 0.25 lux at 1,500 m will hit 1 lux closer to 750 M, and ~ 4 lux at 375 M, for example. So, its not utterly ridiculous to need a light that can throw 1,500 meters...if by throw, we mean to 0.25 lux.



I think a more relevant thing to quibble about is finding out exactly what model, accuracy with LED spectrum, calibration, and technique used. Members throw out all sorts of lux measurements without knowing that their inexpensive meter is very likely designed to measure light with CIE Photopic curve calibration, and have no idea how it actually performs with various LED wavelengths. Put that in your pipe and smoke it Teej !!! :nana:


----------



## BVH

TEEJ said:


> No one actually MEASURES the throw to 1,500 meters, etc...they all (If they do anything vaguely relevant as opposed to just typing nice marketing claims...) is get the lux at one meter equivalent (cd), and plug in the formula to get 0.25 lux at ____________________ meters. For the searches I do, etc, 400 - 800 meters is pretty useful. A light that hits 0.25 lux at 800 meters is NOT useful to 800 M, or even to 400 M typically. A light that can hit 0.25 lux at 1,500 m will hit 1 lux closer to 750 M, and ~ 4 lux at 375 M, for example. So, its not utterly ridiculous to need a light that can throw 1,500 meters...if by throw, we mean to 0.25 lux.



Yes, Yes, I know all this. So why are some people fixated on the .25 Lux number. What is magic about .25 Lux? Why not use a base comparison of 1 Lux and bring those bantered about distance figures back to something closer to realistic?

Oh, and LuxL, I have an old Celestron C-8 telescope but have resisted in using it in beam shot work. Aren't you proud of me???


----------



## Colonel Sanders

Has anyone noticed the moon looking especially bright the last couple of nights? I think some of you wiseasses are combining telescopes with FF4s!  You're only supposed to look through those 8" scopes...don't point the damn light through it!!! You're ruining the night for the rest of us....(don't even need a moonlight mode tonight.)


----------



## rdrfronty

TEEJ said:


> No one actually MEASURES the throw to 1,500 meters, etc...they all (If they do anything vaguely relevant as opposed to just typing nice marketing claims...) is get the lux at one meter equivalent (cd), and plug in the formula to get 0.25 lux at ____________________ meters. For the searches I do, etc, 400 - 800 meters is pretty useful. A light that hits 0.25 lux at 800 meters is NOT useful to 800 M, or even to 400 M typically. A light that can hit 0.25 lux at 1,500 m will hit 1 lux closer to 750 M, and ~ 4 lux at 375 M, for example. So, its not utterly ridiculous to need a light that can throw 1,500 meters...if by throw, we mean to 0.25 lux.


Would you believe I actually try to do that? Well not 1500m, but I've tested most of my lights in true throw up to 800m. We actually measured out the distance with a 100m tape. And take lux measurements at each 100m point. The only issue we've had is my meter only reads down to tenths of a lux. So it does taking some estimating for the "max" throw even using that method. It can be narrowed down pretty close though, usually with in 25m or so using that method.
However I've recently added a nice Extech EA31 meter to my testing tools and it measures down to the hundredths. So now I can take in account any moon luminance or other ambient light since it measures much lower lux. I've always tried to do that in the past, but this meter will take out any guess work involved.
But still my max test area is about 800-900m. And that distance is a serious pain to do. But taking a lux reading at that distance can answer quite a lot on what a light can truly throw. 
Anyway, I just ordered a FF4. It will be a few weeks out since the US distributer just ran out of his first shipment. But when I get it, you can count on beamshots comparisons, full lightbox and lumen testing on it and the other serious throwers I have. With two meters, a lightbox, and true measured distance throw testing, I'm pretty confident I'll find out what these FF4's can really do. 
Gotta get my light I first though......


----------



## JetskiMark

rdrfronty said:


> ......But when I get it, you can count on beamshots comparisons, full lightbox and lumen testing on it and the other serious throwers I have. With two meters, a lightbox, and true measured distance throw testing, I'm pretty confident I'll find out what these FF4's can really do.......



I am looking forward to that. Thanks in advance.

What throwers will you be comparing it to?


----------



## LuxLuthor

rdrfronty said:


> ...Extech EA31 meter....



Yet another silicon photo-diode photometer with a filter to correct to CIE photopic response curve, and calibrated to a standard incandescent lamp at color temperature of 2856ºK. 

Why do I bring this up? This quick PDF gives some background on why this is an important issue when measuring LED's (especially note the end of page 2 and all of page 3), yet rarely is it discussed or in some cases, even known about. It's fine to use the inexpensive photometers to do comparative evaluations with similar light types and wavelengths. It's a whole other issue to think you are getting valid numbers measuring incandescents, HID, fluorescent, LED, etc. against each other. In many such instances, you would be far better served having photos and/or direct observation than relying on Lux measurements from misleading filtered CIE photopic photometers calibrated to 2856ºK. Of course you could always buy a spectroradiometer if you want to accurately compare LED and HID lights.


----------



## JetskiMark

Lips took some beam shots and with his permission, I made an animated gif.

I aligned, cropped and labeled the frames.


----------



## LuxLuthor

Nice job with those, Jet!


----------



## LuxLuthor

LuxLuthor said:


> Yet another silicon photo-diode photometer with a filter to correct to CIE photopic response curve, and calibrated to a standard incandescent lamp at color temperature of 2856ºK.
> 
> Why do I bring this up? This quick PDF gives some background on why this is an important issue when measuring LED's (especially note the end of page 2 and all of page 3), yet rarely is it discussed or in some cases, even known about. It's fine to use the inexpensive photometers to do comparative evaluations with similar light types and wavelengths. It's a whole other issue to think you are getting valid numbers measuring incandescents, HID, fluorescent, LED, etc. against each other. In many such instances, you would be far better served having photos and/or direct observation than relying on Lux measurements from misleading filtered CIE photopic photometers calibrated to 2856ºK. Of course you could always buy a spectroradiometer if you want to accurately compare LED and HID lights.



Cat got your tongues? That was my "*Emperor Has No Clothes*" post about photometry testing and comparing LED's, especially to non-LED light sources. Of course using an I.S. is a whole other animal.


----------



## Fresh Light

Ok, 
received my FF4 from Lips today. I did some measurements using my cheap Lux meter. I am going to have to get something more accurate, but nonetheless it is very constant. Precision but not accuracy. So here goes and remember the FF3 is pretty well accepted to be 220-225k lux. These were taken at* 5 meters *in the lower level. I hope these do not fall too far out of line. But yes, I am reading almost the same lux on the FF4 at 24W as the FF3 at 40, but the overall output is very different. 



*
**24W**40W**60W**FF3**
**217K LUX**
**FF4**173K LUX**329K LUX**428K LUX**OMG MODDED DEFT**230K LUX*



First impression is that it certainly has a much more defined hotspot area, and is a much cooler tint on 24W mode than on 40W were it is only slightly cooler than the FF3. Much more noticeable difference between 24W and 40W than 40W and 60W. I think if you have very small hands that you will get away with holding the handle portion, but most guys will grip the base of the heatsink area and it balances it out better anyway. It's very bright and one very nice light with the mode switching. But FF3 certainly is more ergonomic.

EDIT: I added a Deft moddel that recently received from Saab calibrated at 230K lux and based FF3 and FF4 off the correction err for that light.


----------



## rdrfronty

LuxLuthor said:


> Cat got your tongues? That was my "*Emperor Has No Clothes*" post about photometry testing and comparing LED's, especially to non-LED light sources. Of course using an I.S. is a whole other animal.


Ok I understand what your saying. However nobody in this hobby is going to spend $10k for a spectroradiometer. I do the most accurate testing that a normal flashlight hobbiest can do. I have two light light meters & I have a lightbox. I "calibrated" my lightbox with as many ANSI rated lights as possible to get good baselines. As for lux readings, I do readings at 1m for non throwing lights, and I do testing at 5m - 25m for good throwing lights. I then take those throwing lights and measuring the lux again at distances of 100m, 200, etc, up to their "max" or down to appx .25L on my meter. I then compare the actual throw measured "max" with the 1m, 5m readings. The results are usually VERY close to each other. I then get all the throwing lights and do lots beamshots at distances that have ranged anywhere from 75m up to 900m. I do all the beamshots with the same camera settings. I also think consistant beamshots are one of the best ways to compare lights. 
Is all of this scientifically perfect - no. And I know that. But I know its pretty close. I do all this testing because I got tired of guessing what lights actually do. As most know, your eyes have a hard time detecting differences in lux when the differences are less than double. Comparing two difference lights, especially two difference types of light, such as thrower and flooder, even make this more difficult. It's nice to have an ANSI rating for a light. But I know LEDs or individual lights vary several percent plus or minus. And of course every light I own isn't ANSI rated. If I want to find out what my SBT70 powered SR90 actually throws and how many lumens it puts out, that requires testing. And yes testing with my $35 cheapy meter and my $130 Extech meter, and my appx $100 lightbox is just fine with me. And its as accurate of a method as 99.9% of the people in this forum can do. 
And sure HID's might test differently. I know that for a fact. My previous testing of my 35wt Ryobi showed that. It maxed out my lux meter at 1m. Over 200k basically. Eventually I tested it at longer distances such as 100m and even longer and it showed much lower calculations for throw. And did beamshot comparison with other powerful LED's I had. Eventually I narrowed down the that light only threw appx 600m. Did that by standing at the receiving end of the light at distances from 400m -700m taking lux measurements at each point AND observing the actually light being put on me and around me. And calculated the lux down to 1m. Again is this a scientifically perfect test no. But I guarantee its within a few percent of what it's true throw is. At least for light in wavelengths visible to the naked human eye. Wavelengths outside the human eyesight is pretty pointless and useless to a flashlight hobbiest. 
So when I get my FF4 I will also use my inadequate meters, my homemade lightbox, use my measured out distance lux testing, and my beamshots to test it against other powerful lights I own. If my eyes, my camera, and my meter shows more lux at 1000m with the FF4 vs my TN31mb, then in my opinion that is a pretty darn good enough method to determine the true throw victor. 
And I'm ok with how I come to this result. After all I do all of this just for the fun of it.


----------



## rdrfronty

Fresh Light said:


> Ok,
> received my FF4 from Lips today. I did some measurements using my cheap Lux meter. I am going to have to get something more accurate, but nonetheless it is very constant. Precision but not accuracy. So here goes and remember the FF3 is pretty well accepted to be 220-225k lux. These were taken at* 5 meters *in the lower level. I hope these do not fall too far out of line. But yes, I am reading almost the same lux on the FF4 at 24W as the FF3 at 40, but the overall output is very different.
> 
> 
> 
> *
> **24W**40W**60W**FF3**
> **217K LUX**
> **FF4**173K LUX**329K LUX**428K LUX**OMG MODDED DEFT**230K LUX*
> 
> 
> 
> First impression is that it certainly has a much more defined hotspot area, and is a much cooler tint on 24W mode than on 40W were it is only slightly cooler than the FF3. Much more noticeable difference between 24W and 40W than 40W and 60W. I think if you have very small hands that you will get away with holding the handle portion, but most guys will grip the base of the heatsink area and it balances it out better anyway. It's very bright and one very nice light with the mode switching. But FF3 certainly is more ergonomic.
> 
> EDIT: I added a Deft moddel that recently received from Saab calibrated at 230K lux and based FF3 and FF4 off the correction err for that light.


Thanks for the testing. Very impressive results. I'm glad I have a FF4 on order.


----------



## Fresh Light

I Posted some more results on another site, but this is the basic comparison. Don't discount the FF3 because of the lower lux number, it really is nicer to handle and if you find a good price I would snag it. There probably is good reason they did the FF3 with LOP and it has a lot to do with the super smooth beam it gives compared to the FF4. I noticed that the very center of the beam gives you that really high lux number where the FF3 is easier to find the max point. But FireFoxes are just plain awesome if you like overkill output in the smallest package.


----------



## Tyler A

What will I need to do to get one of these? If its two late to get in on the group buy can I order one anywhere else?


----------



## Fresh Light

mhemling33 said:


> http://flashlight-forums.com/index.php?topic=13795.0


Post on here or PM Lips on here and just let him know you want one. He is the only authorized US seller to get it with warranty. Last I saw there were 4 available on the July 4 shipment.


----------



## LuxLuthor

rdrfronty said:


> Ok I understand what your saying. However nobody in this hobby is going to spend $10k for a spectroradiometer.



Actually there are people on this forum that do have and use spectroradiometers. I agree there is a practical limit to what the flashlight hobbyist can do regarding measuring Lux of various light sources, but people publish their numbers for the most part with no recognition that they are using a photometer that has nothing to with LED sources, and could give WILDLY inaccurate readings. *Not off a few Lux or a few percent....but could be off by 50, 75, 150 or 200% or more. *Their readings could be underreporting actual Lux, or overestimating them.

If people want to pretend that their readings are accurate for any particular light, obviously they can do that. However, the readings don't mean anything in reality. I would rely much more on direct observation as far as throw...and ideally step up close to the distant target to verify relative illumination comparisons. A quality camera shot would be my second choice to give a reliable answer. Photometers calibrated and filtered for incandescent photopic CIE light spectrum, and for that purpose, they are reliable. 



rdrfronty said:


> ...But I guarantee its within a few percent of what it's true throw is.



I respectfully disagree. Going back to that PDF that I linked a couple posts back:



> Filter photometers are normally calibrated against an incandescent reference lamp (a CIE standard illuminant A filament lamp operating at colour temperature of 2856 K). Any filter photometer that is calibrated with an Illuminant A source will be inherently accurate (typically ±3%) when used to measure another 2856 K incandescent lamp, regardless of its photopic matching characteristic.
> 
> The problem arises when the spectral power distribution of the test light source differs greatly from that of the lamp used to calibrate a filter photometer. _In the case of an LED, the error in the photometric flux reading can be as high as 200% if the filter photometer was calibrated using an incandescent source._



As the PDF goes on to discuss, if you want to compare two LED's with the same wavelength, and you know the actual reading of one of them from an actual spectroradiometer test, then you can report the Lux readings of the other one with your type of photometer. If everyone wants to nod their head with test results like you posted, they can do so as they wish...but in reality, and scientifically, those results are akin to Hans Christian Andersen's fairy tale about the Emperor [who] Has No Clothes.

I'm not intending to be mean, condescending, or unappreciative of your efforts. Rather my points are for people to actually know that these readings are completely unreliable by themself. Most people here at CPF reading Lux testing results know nothing about how inaccurate posted results can be because of this important issue.


----------



## rdrfronty

LuxLuthor said:


> Actually there are people on this forum that do have and use spectroradiometers. I agree there is a practical limit to what the flashlight hobbyist can do regarding measuring Lux of various light sources, but people publish their numbers for the most part with no recognition that they are using a photometer that has nothing to with LED sources, and could give WILDLY inaccurate readings. *Not off a few Lux or a few percent....but could be off by 50, 75, 150 or 200% or more. *Their readings could be underreporting actual Lux, or overestimating them.
> 
> If people want to pretend that their readings are accurate for any particular light, obviously they can do that. However, the readings don't mean anything in reality. I would rely much more on direct observation as far as throw...and ideally step up close to the distant target to verify relative illumination comparisons. A quality camera shot would be my second choice to give a reliable answer. Photometers calibrated and filtered for incandescent photopic CIE light spectrum, and for that purpose, they are reliable.
> 
> 
> 
> I respectfully disagree. Going back to that PDF that I linked a couple posts back:
> 
> 
> 
> As the PDF goes on to discuss, if you want to compare two LED's with the same wavelength, and you know the actual reading of one of them from an actual spectroradiometer test, then you can report the Lux readings of the other one with your type of photometer. If everyone wants to nod their head with test results like you posted, they can do so as they wish...but in reality, and scientifically, those results are akin to Hans Christian Andersen's fairy tale about the Emperor [who] Has No Clothes.
> 
> I'm not intending to be mean, condescending, or unappreciative of your efforts. Rather my points are for people to actually know that these readings are completely unreliable by themself. Most people here at CPF reading Lux testing results know nothing about how inaccurate posted results can be because of this important issue.



You GREATLY under estimate how much my numbers match the manufacture numbers. I don't want to deter this thread any more - PM sent.


----------



## grev

TEEJ said:


> No one actually MEASURES the throw to 1,500 meters, etc...they all (If they do anything vaguely relevant as opposed to just typing nice marketing claims...) is get the lux at one meter equivalent (cd), and plug in the formula to get 0.25 lux at ____________________ meters. For the searches I do, etc, 400 - 800 meters is pretty useful. A light that hits 0.25 lux at 800 meters is NOT useful to 800 M, or even to 400 M typically. A light that can hit 0.25 lux at 1,500 m will hit 1 lux closer to 750 M, and ~ 4 lux at 375 M, for example. So, its not utterly ridiculous to need a light that can throw 1,500 meters...if by throw, we mean to 0.25 lux.


You answered really well and this is what I encounter in real life usage, all these throw numbers are fine but I ALWAYS divide the throw number by 2 to get a useable range, this is effectively halving whatever the claim is for a good real life usage.


----------



## TEEJ

grev said:


> You answered really well and this is what I encounter in real life usage, all these throw numbers are fine but I ALWAYS divide the throw number by 2 to get a useable range, this is effectively halving whatever the claim is for a good real life usage.



The way I see it (literally and figuratively), is that if 0.25 lux is considered to be average moonlight, that assumes that outside, with average moonlight, you don't need a flashlight. While this is true to a small degree at short ranges, it is not true for long ranges where the part of your eye needed to resolve fine detail has the worst night vision, etc. I also tend to take the square root of the cd as equaling the number of meters I might be able to use the light at.

As Lux has correctly pointed out, the lumen/cd ratings are based upon a scale that doesn't necessarily represent the output of an LED very well. The peaks and valleys in wavelength that the LED produces will mean that the sensor and programing of the lux meter will see less light at the valley wavelengths, more at the peaks, etc.

Essentially though, as they all are measured with this same non-representative system, you can compare the results. You must do the comparison with a grain of salt though, as the output that you can SEE WITH may not correlate to the lumens or cd that are presented in the specs.

*The fact that so many of us measure and get the same lumen/cd reading that the manufacturer's do, means that we are successfully duplicating their measurements.
*
*The fact that their measurements may not be representative of what we might SEE WITH THE LIGHT is the issue that Lux is referring to.
*


----------



## tatasal

*
**"The fact that so many of us measure and get the same lumen/cd reading that the manufacturer's do, means that we are successfully duplicating their measurements."
*
This is rdrfronty's point and I fully agree with him.


----------



## TEEJ

tatasal said:


> *"The fact that so many of us measure and get the same lumen/cd reading that the manufacturer's do, means that we are successfully duplicating their measurements."
> *
> This is rdrfronty's point and I fully agree with him.



I don't believe anyone is questioning that point. I am establishing that point as a baseline. Essentially, the discussion has TWO points. ONE is that we can duplicate the measurements. TWO is that those measurements may not be representative of what we SEE with the light.



They are NOT in conflict with each other, despite confusion in many posts above.

One "side" is arguing that the scale they use to weigh prospective football players, and their stop watches used to time them in the 40 yard dash, are accurate, and agree with what the colleges told them the players weigh and their speed in the 40.

The "Other side" is arguing that the weight and time in the 40 may not be the best way to pick football players....that there are other factors.


----------



## tatasal

Really? :naughty::kiss:


----------



## BVH

I've been on the fence on the FF4 due to the UI but I'm going to jump in and get one. Maybe FF5 will improve the UI.


----------



## LuxLuthor

TEEJ said:


> I don't believe anyone is questioning that point. I am establishing that point as a baseline. Essentially, the discussion has TWO points. ONE is that we can duplicate the measurements. TWO is that those measurements may not be representative of what we SEE with the light.
> 
> 
> 
> They are NOT in conflict with each other, despite confusion in many posts above.
> 
> One "side" is arguing that the scale they use to weigh prospective football players, and their stop watches used to time them in the 40 yard dash, are accurate, and agree with what the colleges told them the players weigh and their speed in the 40.
> 
> The "Other side" is arguing that the weight and time in the 40 may not be the best way to pick football players....that there are other factors.



That's a pretty accurate description of the point I am making. People assume that the various Chinese companies are doing spectroradiographic testing, or using a filter that is specific to evaluating the output of a 5000°K or 6000°K peak wavelength LED, and taking their published promotional numbers as gospel. I recommend that anyone believing these are reliable numbers calls up whatever store/dealer that sells brands of Fenix, OLight, Eagletac, Thrunite, etc. and ask them if they know exactly how their "max throw" numbers were arrived at. I just did the exercise by calling OlightUSA.com at 919-883-5265, and spoke with a very nice, polite gentleman, Zachary, who is their sales manager, and he made it clear that they use the information from the Chinese company that makes OLight. I also called FourSevens.com 866-465-7334, and spoke with Kristin who said they don't do any of their own light measurement testing, but she could tell me what "Max Throw" it says on the box.

Unless you deal with a high quality USA company (doesn't have to be USA company--I just know about these two for sure) like XeVision, SureFire, etc. who need to demonstrate irrefutable proof of their NEMA, NIST, MilSpec, or other verified standard readings--including documentation of annual calibrations because of aviation safety and/or government contracts--claims of a specific Lux, CD, interpreted inverse square throw calculations are notoriously inflated, sloppy, or outright bogus.

So as Teej says, these Chinese companies may be doing their estimates using a common photometer, banking on no one being able to hold them accountable, and only the most knowledgeable even realizing what is the correct way to test for maximum throw.

I would not necessarily criticize a testing scenario (*some of which* it appears that rdrfronty did with his brother) where one person actually measured out and walked to 800, 900, 1000+ meters, and stood there looking at an illuminated target _(not turning around and looking back at the light)_ such as a tree, bush, or structure, in the dark (no moon), low humidity, low dust/pollen/insects/smoke, and waited 20 minutes for the full rod adapated night vision to be active. They could then verify to some degree with their own experienced perception at what point the light is no longer showing on the various targets. Most of these evaluations are still only going to relatively valid--comparing Light "A" against Light "B" rather than saying Light "A" *actually *has a specific throw number.

As I shared with rdrfronty in our PM conversation, here are some useful resources that I have collected and uploaded to my Box account over the years, and may not be available anymore.

https://www.box.com/s/stll0wxe0vld4b5hrch6 Earlier linked Pro-Lite 3 page PDF

https://www.box.com/s/zxhtgz2ld6aw4du3g9er Especially note Chapter 3.2

https://www.box.com/s/uvdxdeuqo8xharnf3our Especially note Chapter 7

https://www.box.com/s/1nkdm2vs1d222m10bd42 Good overall guide, and explaining importance of filters and diode detection types.

http://www.photonics.com/edu/Handbook.aspx? Good general resource
http://www.xevision.com/hid_hangar_tech.html#photometry  Good general resource​


----------



## LuxLuthor

BVH said:


> I've been on the fence on the FF4 due to the UI but I'm going to jump in and get one. Maybe FF5 will improve the UI.



Ditto!


----------



## tatasal

Like with most high-lumen lights, the highest mode is timed for temp and safety reasons, so is this light. However, after step down you still have 4000 and 2000 lumens.


----------



## Fresh Light

I believe the type of testing Lux is referring to has already been done at least on the* FF3 *and *Polarian PF40*. I remembered this thread when he was talking about it. Notice the startup times then take note of the flux once it levels out. Here is the thread with the testing courtesy of Toppe. http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb...s-comparison&p=4041526&viewfull=1#post4041526
Lux is this the radiospectrometry testing you are referring to?
I realize this is lumens testing but I am referring to the type of testing equipment. Also, I wonder if the FF3 and Medium(high) of the FF4 are the same and putting 4100 Lumens OTF from an estimated 5300 bulb lumens, then how many bulb lumens is this light on Turbo?


----------



## LuxLuthor

Fresh Light said:


> I believe the type of testing Lux is referring to has already been done at least on the* FF3 *and *Polarian PF40*. I remembered this thread when he was talking about it. Notice the startup times then take note of the flux once it levels out. Here is the thread with the testing courtesy of Toppe. http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb...s-comparison&p=4041526&viewfull=1#post4041526
> Lux is this the radiospectrometry testing you are referring to?
> I realize this is lumens testing but I am referring to the type of testing equipment. Also, I wonder if the FF3 and Medium(high) of the FF4 are the same and putting 4100 Lumens OTF from an estimated 5300 bulb lumens, then how many bulb lumens is this light on Turbo?



That is a high end testing instrument. Technically it uses an Integrating Sphere ("I.S.") and a spectroradiometric detector. It will accurately capture all the light output, and correctly measure the many different type of light sources, including LED, HID, Incandescent, etc., but it is designed to measure the TOTAL output coming out the front of the light, not the throw. 

When you talk specifically about throw (illumination of a distant target), that is a distinct type of measurement because of the focus and coherence of the light waves. Measuring throw takes into account how the projected beam appears out towards a target. If two flashlights had an identical LED type, and power supply, an I.S. could measure the same total light coming both out of a flashlight with an orange peel reflector, and a DEFT (that Saabluster makes) type light using an aspheric lens to focus the light into a tight beam. However, the throw of the first (orange peel reflector) would suck when compared to the throw of the DEFT.

So to answer your question, that type of testing is not what I am referring to, although the radiospectrometer will correctly measure all the various wavelengths from red, green, blue, UV LED's, and from all the other light sources we are discussing like HID, Incandescent, etc. It doesn't filter and test all light sources through the CIE Photopic incandescent 2856°K profile.


----------



## Lips

*2nd* Production Run of the FF4 20-40-60w scheduled to be completed mid to end of next week!


----------



## LuxLuthor

Lips said:


> *2nd* Production Run of the FF4 20-40-60w scheduled to be completed mid to end of next week!



Can't wait to see this gem. Thanks to Lips!


----------



## RichS

Lips said:


> *2nd* Production Run of the FF4 20-40-60w scheduled to be completed mid to end of next week!



Great to hear Lips! Were there any UI or other changes made for the 2nd production run vs. the 1st run?


----------



## Zephrus

BVH said:


> I'm not convinced yet that they "can" be changed with current hardware and it if they can, that they will change anything. My guess is there's more of a chance that it will not change than it will change. If it doesn't change, I don't think I'll buy one. 60 Watt mode is almost useless and I've already had an FF3 so an FF4 with SMO at the same Wattage is not worth it for me.



This was my main sticking point too. If 60W is only good for 3 minutes, and the light has to be switched off before returning to 60W mode, I don't know if that's enough impetus to upgrade. I do like the fact that they went SMO this time.

I think they may be starting to reach a theoretical limit as to how much output they can pack into an HID of this size ... without adding a blower or liquid cooling  So for an *HID* of this size, without being obesely gaudy in the head cooling fins, perhaps 60 watts is a sort of practical limit.


----------



## BVH

If nothing else, we've got an FF3 with SMO and can choose to run at only 24 Watts. Two options we didn't have before.


----------



## 3Cylinders

At this point, I don't believe there is any motivation for them to change the light. Almost everyone who had concerns about the UI, the limitation on the 60W mode and the turnoff/turn back on to reenter 60W mode have since went ahead and purchased one, so, from the manufacturer's standpoint, there is no reason to change anything until the next light. If everyone had held back on the purchases, then they would have had to reevaluate the things people weren't happy with. They still may not have changed anything, but at this point, there's no reason to make any changes.


----------



## tatasal

Zephrus said:


> I think they may be starting to reach a theoretical limit as to how much output they can pack into an HID of this size ... without adding a blower or liquid cooling  So for an *HID* of this size, without being obesely gaudy in the head cooling fins, perhaps 60 watts is a sort of practical limit.



I have an FF4. I would very much agree with this statement... 60 true watts is a practical limit. Any light of this size, particularly this light at Super High, exceeding 3 minutes at 60W is already going into dangerously hot territory. Mind you, but even 'just at 4000 lumen' in High mode is quite enough.


----------



## Zephrus

3Cylinders said:


> Almost everyone who had concerns about the UI, the limitation on the 60W mode and the turnoff/turn back on to reenter 60W mode have since went ahead and purchased one



Yeah, I was sort of "war gaming" the UI scenario in my head ... trying to figure out how much of an annoyance it may or may not really be. Still on the fence but may ultimately pick one up. 

I just jumped into the topic today so.... what's this about about them not selling to U.S. buyers with a warranty? I checked Flashlight-Torch and it says in big red letters, "*NO SHIPPING TO USA!*." So I'm assuming we have to buy one through Lips?


----------



## Lips

RichS said:


> Great to hear Lips! Were there any UI or other changes made for the 2nd production run vs. the 1st run?




Rich

No changes to the UI. Production changes I'd be surprised if not... I did request that they speak to engineers and line people about making sure they pay extra attention to bulb placement. They said they would. SMO Reflector is 2mm deeper and is wider than FF3 but bulb placement makes a difference in lux. 


Tested with Panasonic 3400 mah you get around 7 min at 60w. (3min each run)

*Runtime Test*

Sanyo 2600 24W 55min 40W 40min
Panasonic 2900 24W 65min 40W 55min
Panasonic 3400 24w ? 40w ?

You should get 70 - 75 min at 24w with Panasonic 3400 batts...

The UI is SIMPLE in practice as compared to on paper (I was wrong!). I still feel the best route would be to allow 60w multiple times for shorter runtimes to control the heat and battery while keeping the 3 min limit... Plenty of room to add bells and whistles to this light and improvements but it's simply better than the FF3 in all ways except for ergonomics etc. The FF4 is an awesome HID thrower that is solid as a rock! The 24 w is the big surprise in how well it does...



*
Couple of rookie videos of UI etc *:mecry:


----------



## tatasal

For FF4 fans, it's now $208 @ doingoutdoor, shipped.


----------



## coconutz

tatasal said:


> For FF4 fans, it's now $208 @ doingoutdoor, shipped.



Thanks tatasal. They even ship to the US too.


----------



## MBentz

coconutz said:


> Thanks tatasal. They even ship to the US too.



In case you didn't notice, that is without the battery.


----------



## Lips

coconutz said:


> Thanks tatasal. They even ship to the US too.



Negative


----------



## coconutz

Lips said:


> Negative



Are you sure? I went through the ordering process right up to paypal input page. The US is the first option they give when it comes to shipping/billing. After I chose the US, it gave me a dropdown menu with all of the states. I also looked all over the website trying to find anything showing that they do not sell/ship to the US. If you have information that contradicts this, please enlighten. Thanks.


----------



## coconutz

Oops, nevermind Lips, I just found it. Damn I must be going blind.


----------



## Dave_5280

tatasal said:


> For FF4 fans, it's now $208 @ doingoutdoor, shipped.



Looks like they increased the price to $240, or is there a discount code?


----------



## pauljohan

Dave_5280 said:


> Looks like they increased the price to $240, or is there a discount code?


http://www.doingoutdoor.com/firefox...-ship-via-singpost-registered-mail-p-382.html
#not ship to USA#


----------



## One missed call

Any word on the status of the Gen2/2nd run of the FF4 and what, if any, changes were made?

Thanks in advance.


----------



## One missed call

Dave_5280 said:


> Looks like they increased the price to $240, or is there a discount code?



Nope DoingOutddors increased the price to $269. 

Look elsewhere. Better deals available. Still seen it as low as $200.


----------



## tatasal

Email Bill for real price. Prices posted are MAP.


----------



## tatasal

One missed call said:


> Any word on the status of the Gen2/2nd run of the FF4 and what, if any, changes were made?
> 
> Thanks in advance.



No change.


----------



## One missed call

tatasal said:


> Email Bill for real price. Prices posted are MAP.



Is the 2nd GEN confirmed to have no changes? How do you know?

Also, people should not to purchase from yo-yo pricing vendors. The price was $239 then fell to $208 and now it is $269. All in the span of LESS THAN 3 weeks - while none of his inventory (if you believe the quantity shown on the site) has been sold. 

Shady. Thanks - but no thanks. 

If Bill is selling for 108, 208 or 228, that's what should be the site. Emailing to get the "real price" is silly and IMO makes for an unscrupulous vendor.


----------



## One missed call

tatasal said:


> No change.



Shame - I was so hoping for a battery compartment which actually held protected cells. This way I could use the light without a timer and hobby charger constantly in-tow (like most others sold today...)


----------



## tatasal

One missed call said:


> Is the 2nd GEN confirmed to have no changes? How do you know?
> 
> Also, people should not to purchase from yo-yo pricing vendors. The price was $239 then fell to $208 and now it is $269. All in the span of LESS THAN 3 weeks - while none of his inventory (if you believe the quantity shown on the site) has been sold.
> 
> Shady. Thanks - but no thanks.
> 
> If Bill is selling for 108, 208 or 228, that's what should be the site. Emailing to get the "real price" is silly and IMO makes for an unscrupulous vendor.



Oh well....more than 50 international FF4 buyers can't all be wrong though


----------



## One missed call

tatasal said:


> Oh well....more than 50 international buyers can't all be wrong though



It's not about them being wrong - it's about ethical pricing practices. 

By the way, 50 buyers hardly lends credence to their pricing policies. 

But thanks for your tip.


----------



## One missed call

EDIT - Duplicate posted deleted


----------



## tatasal

Price changes is a natural consequence of the dynamics in a free enterprise. 

And as I said, MAP (Minimum Advertised Price) played a major role in the recent increase, that's why we buyers are given coupon codes and in some instances, direct price requests with the vendor. IMO, this practice can hardly be called silly and it does not make any vendor for that matter 'unscrupulous'.


----------



## One missed call

tatasal said:


> Price changes is a natural consequence of the dynamics in a free enterprise.
> 
> And as I said, MAP (Minimum Advertised Price) played a major role in the recent increase, that's why we buyers are given coupon codes and in some instances, direct price requests with the vendor. IMO, this practice can hardly be called silly and it does not make any vendor for that matter 'unscrupulous'.




In case you do not realize, $240 to $208 to $269 is a 15% price decrease followed by a ~30% price increase. Hardly peanuts.

Are they free to do it? Sure. But if it's only to turn around and give you a "discount" (or as you called it, the "real price") that translates into a huge discount....well that is shady. Note: I am not saying that if falls under deceptive pricing practices (which in a "free market" is not legal).

Other vendors are offering this device at "a real price" to begin with. I prefer those vendors to one which you have to email for the "real price." Again - just my opinion and preference.

As for your mention of free enterprise. Well, lets just say I find it amusing that you would defer to that in this, of all threads, given the attention the "only ONE seller in all of the U.S.A. for the FF4 has received." Not my idea of free enterprise.


----------



## tatasal

As for the 'only one seller in all of the USA', look in the direction of FireFoxes, the manufacturer, on why is that so.

As to the prices, this is the situation: $ 269. MAP, required by FF, the manufacturer, to be listed in website

(doingoutdoor's prices) $ 240. if shipped via DHL or EMS
$ 208. if shipped via Singpost

Actual amount you pay out is still the same, (as listed above, depending on shipper of choice). The MINIMUM ADVERTISED PRICE ($269) is added/listed in the FF4 webpage, but is not the real selling price of doingoutdoor's FF4. (It is only either $240 or $208). I don't think there is anything shady with that.

http://www.cpfmarketplace.com/mp/sh...xes-are-still-in-stock!&p=4770945#post4770945


----------



## One missed call

tatasal said:


> As for the 'only one seller in all of the USA', look in the direction of FireFoxes, the manufacturer, on why is that so.
> 
> As to the prices, this is the situation: $ 269. MAP, required by FF, the manufacturer, to be listed in website
> 
> (doingoutdoor's prices) $ 240. if shipped via DHL or EMS
> $ 208. if shipped via Singpost
> 
> Actual amount you pay out is still the same, (as listed above, depending on shipper of choice). The MINIMUM ADVERTISED PRICE ($269) is added/listed in the FF4 webpage, but is not the real selling price of doingoutdoor's FF4. (It is only either $240 or $208). I don't think there is anything shady with that.
> 
> http://www.cpfmarketplace.com/mp/sh...xes-are-still-in-stock!&p=4770945#post4770945





Thanks for setting the record straight.


----------



## Svoloch88

Was trying to google for some info on what the rated Candela is on this light to no avail. Can someone please specify legitimately tested numbers, if there are any?


----------



## ampdude

I haven't purchased the FF4 yet because I don't like the interface either. It certainly seems to be a bit complicated and unreliable.

I like my FF3 and don't feel the need to run out and buy an FF4 until they get it right.

I do like the overall looks of the light and the reflector is definitely an improvement. Honestly I hardly ever use my FF3 anyways.

I just turn it on every once in awhile for a few minutes to go WOW THAT'S BRIGHT! Haha I haven't even turned it on in two or three months.


----------



## tatasal

ampdude said:


> I just turn it on every once in awhile for a few minutes to go WOW THAT'S BRIGHT! Haha I haven't even turned it on in two or three months.



Oh yes, isn't it the case (my guess) to maybe at least 95% of us flashaholics? Hahaha, if it's not then I think you have a problem!


----------



## ampdude

Yes, probably less than 5% of my lights are actual users. And just by quantity of those alone, even the users are not used much.

The other thing about the FF4 is that I wish Firefoxes would come out with an HID that could use both rechargeable cells AND primaries.

With current tech that would probably limit it to about a 30W light, but with temperature problems in a light that size, that seems to be about the max power you can use in a continueous run. I know the FF3 steps down to 24W for its continueous burn.


----------



## tatasal

Yeah, 30 to a max of 40W is just about the safe upper limit. Judging by the enormous heat generated by the HID bulb even by just putting your hand near the glass lens at 60W of the FF4, one can easily understand why initially FF designed the FF4 to run @60W for only 1 minute.


----------



## darkduude

Paid $240 shipped for mine and I should receive it on August 5th. I'll let you know how it compares to some of my other lights and the temps it generates.


----------



## LightJunk

I got mine for $208(shipped to NON-US address). Bought on 21st Jul. In my hands on 1st Aug. One hell of a deal and it brightens up night into day. Awesome output for its size.


----------



## darkduude

Got my FF4 today and took it out back after dark. The few minutes I tested it I think the 60w mode is useless. After having the light on for a few minutes it would not go in to the 60w mode because of the temp. No matter what you do unless you wait till it cools down completely would it go to 60w. Even cycling it back thru would not get it to go in to the 60w mode because of the temp. While doing that you are standing in the dark. The 60w mode works but is really not needed. The limited time in 60w mode is useless. I found the 40w mode is sufficient and 24w mode is enough to get extra run time. I think the temp makes it very limited in terms of usage. I would take a LED over this HID. I don't think the FF4 has been really used for a extended time or this would have been noticed. More of a novelty than a useful tool. Would not want to depend on it for any thing serious. JMHO


----------



## ampdude

darkduude said:


> Got my FF4 today and took it out back after dark. The few minutes I tested it I think the 60w mode is useless. After having the light on for a few minutes it would not go in to the 60w mode because of the temp. No matter what you do unless you wait till it cools down completely would it go to 60w. Even cycling it back thru would not get it to go in to the 60w mode because of the temp. While doing that you are standing in the dark. The 60w mode works but is really not needed. The limited time in 60w mode is useless. I found the 40w mode is sufficient and 24w mode is enough to get extra run time. I think the temp makes it very limited in terms of usage. I would take a LED over this HID. I don't think the FF4 has been really used for a extended time or this would have been noticed. More of a novelty than a useful tool. Would not want to depend on it for any thing serious. JMHO



This is what I was afraid of and the reason I haven't purchased one. A worthless 60W mode is not something I'm willing to upgrade for right now. Like I said before, I have no problem waiting for them to perfect the light and get a better UI as well. Perhaps it something as simple as putting more material on the light and improving the heat sinking some more.


----------



## rdrfronty

Got my FF4 in today. Nice little light. Annoying mode changing, but I knew that before I ordered it. So I can't complain there. Did some tests in my lightbox. And did a throw test. And no my lightbox isn't a true sphere and my meter is just a normal meter. But both have tested perhaps 100 lights, about 1/2 of them being ansi rated. So I know my numbers are pretty close. Here are my results -
Low(24wt) - 2900 lumens
Med(42wt) - 5225 lumens
High(60wt) - 7010 lumens
Throw(from 15m) - 430K 
So I'm pretty pleased over all. It will likely be a powerful little shelf queen for me, but that's fine with me.


----------



## LuxLuthor

darkduude said:


> Got my FF4 today and took it out back after dark. *The few minutes I tested it *I think the 60w mode is useless. After having the light on for a few minutes it would not go in to the 60w mode because of the temp. No matter what you do unless you wait till it cools down completely would it go to 60w. Even cycling it back thru would not get it to go in to the 60w mode because of the temp. While doing that you are standing in the dark. The 60w mode works but is really not needed. The limited time in 60w mode is useless. I found the 40w mode is sufficient and 24w mode is enough to get extra run time. I think the temp makes it very limited in terms of usage. I would take a LED over this HID. I don't think the FF4 has been really used for a extended time or this would have been noticed. More of a novelty than a useful tool. Would not want to depend on it for any thing serious. JMHO



I'm not saying you are necessarily wrong since I have not received mine yet, but this is not the majority consensus of other reviewers. I highlighted in red what I think is an important aspect of your opinion that people should take note of before they make their own decision. Lips has shown a number of beamshots and a more thorough review, including the practical safety reality of not running lights when they get hot--especially lithium cobalt powered lights. In any case, it's not that expensive of a light for the overall features and performance.


----------



## Alex1234

Posting pics of my ff4


----------



## Alex1234

duplicate post


----------



## Alex1234

After having my ff4 for about 5 days now i find the ui to be fine. I think the 60w mode is great and is easy to 
Get to after it warms up a bit. I ran the light on 60 w for 3 minutes and it was hot but it kicked down to 24 w in about 3 
Minutes. 60w puts out so much light its insane. I was able to light news paper on fire in about a minute 
I took some pics of the light and beamshots











*Beamshots* 




*24w*:devil:




*40w*:devil::devil:




*60w*:devil::devil::devil:




*Shoot of beam at 60w*


----------



## edgar

that the kind of post that make me want to buy one


----------



## BVH

Edgar, you seem to be very into short arcs. The FF4 definitely does not have a short arc type of beam. Tons of light and a nice, usable fixed focus but nothing like a short arc.


----------



## edgar

Very true Bob , but the size vs power is appealing isnt it ;and when it was at 207$ shipped it was even better .

Anyway all my fund are taken by the maxablaster copy .
If i had a next light to buy it would be this FF4 light .


----------



## stevo250

Does the ff4 have to be run on unprotected batteries? Or can it be run on good quality 3400mah protected batteries?


----------



## BVH

In order to run on protected cells, the battery carrier springs must be significantly cut down. Some buyers are doing this. Some are buying an extra carrier to have one of each.


----------



## stevo250

Ok thanks! The protected cells wont have a problem with the current draw will they? Im running 3400mah keeppower


----------



## BVH

No one has reported any issues with the protected 3400's that I am aware of.


----------



## stevo250

Good to know. Last question haha
Does the battery carrier or light have overdischarge protection built in? So that unprotected cells wont get damaged in the light


----------



## BVH

yes, it does. But it's based on low voltage of the pack as a total so it is not technically "per cell" protection. So it's necessary to always ensure you are using cells with matched voltage (give or take a few hundredths of a Volt). Easiest way to do that is to always insert four freshly charged cells off the same charger and periodically check their Voltage off the charger (after some minutes of rest). I have not seen or do not remember seeing the actual LVC Voltage threshold.


----------



## stevo250

Thanks. Good to know. I plan on buying 4 new unprotected cells with the light and only using them in that light so shouldn't be an issue. I have a dmm to check cell voltage as well.


----------



## Alex1234

I finally was able to take some beamshots of my Fire-Fox FF-4 Vs my TN31 which was modded with a dedomed xm-l2 led driven to 6.5A 
The tn31 does have a brighter hotspot but the shear output of the ff4 makes it a much more impressive light 








*Fire-Fox FF4 60W*:devil::devil::devil::devil::devil::devil:`````````````````````````````` *Modded TN31 *


----------



## tatasal

Very nice photos you have there! Thanks


----------



## darkduude

The majority consensus of other reviewer that I personally read was they turned on the FF4 long enough to be impressed by the light output in the 3 modes. Then they put it on a shelf for 3 months and would check it again. I don't think most owners took them outside for any testing. It doesn't take long to realize what you have in your hand. Its a great light for the price, but when I go to select a flashlight for what ever my night activities my be the FF4 in not in the group of lights I pick from. It might be a second choice to take along for hunting gators or frogs in the swamp or hanging out at the airboat camp. It sure draws the bugs in late at night and when you have to shut if off to let if cool down is fun. Getting pelted by every flying beetle and bug in the dark was interesting. Using the light to spot gators would be fun. Find a 10 footer and get up net to him just in time to turn the light off to cool down. Yes, with in inches of a ten foot gator with no light and you can feel the gator bumping your boat. Can't shoot in the dark so do you turn on the FF4 on and finish the capture or take a Olight SR90 and be safe and get your gator and get back to camp and skin it and start processing it. Cook some fresh gator and enjoy the rest of the night. JMHO


----------



## tatasal

darkduude said:


> The majority consensus of other reviewer that I personally read was they turned on the FF4 long enough to be impressed by the light output in the 3 modes. Then they put it on a shelf for 3 months and would check it again. I don't think most owners took them outside for any testing. It doesn't take long to realize what you have in your hand. Its a great light for the price, but when I go to select a flashlight for what ever my night activities my be the FF4 in not in the group of lights I pick from. It might be a second choice to take along for hunting gators or frogs in the swamp or hanging out at the airboat camp. It sure draws the bugs in late at night and when you have to shut if off to let if cool down is fun. Getting pelted by every flying beetle and bug in the dark was interesting. Using the light to spot gators would be fun. Find a 10 footer and get up net to him just in time to turn the light off to cool down. Yes, with in inches of a ten foot gator with no light and you can feel the gator bumping your boat. Can't shoot in the dark so do you turn on the FF4 on and finish the capture or take a Olight SR90 and be safe and get your gator and get back to camp and skin it and start processing it. Cook some fresh gator and enjoy the rest of the night. JMHO



Nothing surprising with your comment actually as I have at the moment my other LED lights (the FF4 as the newest entry) sleeping soundly in their sleep. I only get to worry if I have no light at all!


----------



## stevo250

What are people using for holsters for the FF4? I just ordered one and I dont think they come with a holster.


----------



## LuxLuthor

darkduude said:


> The majority consensus of other reviewer that I personally read was they turned on the FF4 long enough to be impressed by the light output in the 3 modes. Then they put it on a shelf for 3 months and would check it again. I don't think most owners took them outside for any testing. It doesn't take long to realize what you have in your hand. Its a great light for the price, but when I go to select a flashlight for what ever my night activities my be the FF4 in not in the group of lights I pick from. It might be a second choice to take along for hunting gators or frogs in the swamp or hanging out at the airboat camp. It sure draws the bugs in late at night and when you have to shut if off to let if cool down is fun. Getting pelted by every flying beetle and bug in the dark was interesting. Using the light to spot gators would be fun. Find a 10 footer and get up net to him just in time to turn the light off to cool down. Yes, with in inches of a ten foot gator with no light and you can feel the gator bumping your boat. Can't shoot in the dark so do you turn on the FF4 on and finish the capture or take a Olight SR90 and be safe and get your gator and get back to camp and skin it and start processing it. Cook some fresh gator and enjoy the rest of the night. JMHO



I heartily agree for that kind of an application, the FF3/4 is not the light you want. Hell with a live gator sneaking around, I would likely have 4 or 5 lights with me. :tinfoil:

Having used the FF4 for about 5 days now, I agree with Lips assessment that you can get around the U.I pretty well. I don't regret buying it.


----------



## BVH

There's not many times when I would need to use the 60 watt setting. Heck, even the 24 Watt level is usually more than enough light. I like mine.


----------



## TEEJ

darkduude said:


> The majority consensus of other reviewer that I personally read was they turned on the FF4 long enough to be impressed by the light output in the 3 modes. Then they put it on a shelf for 3 months and would check it again. I don't think most owners took them outside for any testing. It doesn't take long to realize what you have in your hand. Its a great light for the price, but when I go to select a flashlight for what ever my night activities my be the FF4 in not in the group of lights I pick from. It might be a second choice to take along for hunting gators or frogs in the swamp or hanging out at the airboat camp. It sure draws the bugs in late at night and when you have to shut if off to let if cool down is fun. Getting pelted by every flying beetle and bug in the dark was interesting. Using the light to spot gators would be fun. Find a 10 footer and get up net to him just in time to turn the light off to cool down. Yes, with in inches of a ten foot gator with no light and you can feel the gator bumping your boat. Can't shoot in the dark so do you turn on the FF4 on and finish the capture or take a Olight SR90 and be safe and get your gator and get back to camp and skin it and start processing it. Cook some fresh gator and enjoy the rest of the night. JMHO



With a gator bumping the boat, I don't think thing you need an SR90 or an HID spot light to see it to shoot it at that range. I don't use lights with short run times where the runs times need to be longer...its just the wrong tool for the job.

It would be like one carpenter posting that he doesn't think a router is a good idea when he's got to screw together some cabinetry with philips head screws....and another carpenter saying his router's been real handy for routing, and he'd hate to try to do that with a philips head screw driver.



IE: A long range light with short run time to SPOT the gator is cool if you have a car battery/marine cell, etc, to provide the juice, or you have intermediate range lights for use as you close the distance, etc. They have some handy eye shine to help spot them of in the distance when facing the right way, etc, or, you have your strong spot light to pick up their forms, and after that, you're just navigating.


----------



## Holiday

I also like FF4. it is a real monster, and it is use 4 *18650 Unprotected lithium-ion battery ,Sanyo and panasonic are the best choose


----------



## One missed call

As an owner of a TM15, DDR30 (GEN 2), TN31 (GEN 2) among others, I can say without hesitation that this lS undoubtedly THE most impressive light I own. Both in terms of throw and flood/spill/foreground illumination. 

Pictures here don't quite capture how well this thing performs. 

I only hope we see a FF5 soon!


----------



## 1SICKLT1TA

I love the FF4, if you are on the fence about it just buy it, it is awesome. I had a ff3 and the ff4 is awesome in comparison with 3 modes better cooling and more output wow is all i can say


----------



## stevo250

Just got my ff4 but it seems the battery carrier or something has a loose connection as it randomly turns off and the green lights will light up only sometimes and dont work at all other times. I can get them to come on with the carrier outside the flashlight but not when it is in the light anymore. This is my first defective light and I'm disappointed on such an expensive light. Any thoughts?


----------



## One missed call

Same thing happens to me. Annoying, I know. However, on my light it does NOT affect the functionality of the light. Try it - it should still work when carrier is turned on. 




stevo250 said:


> Just got my ff4 but it seems the battery carrier or something has a loose connection as it randomly turns off and the green lights will light up only sometimes and dont work at all other times. I can get them to come on with the carrier outside the flashlight but not when it is in the light anymore. This is my first defective light and I'm disappointed on such an expensive light. Any thoughts?


----------



## edgar

How long did it take to deliver from doingoutdor.com , at the 208$ price ?

I ordered one , its too tempting !


----------



## stevo250

Unfortunately my battery carrier (or light) appears to be defective and no longer works


----------



## edgar

what is happening with those battery carrier , you have any picture perhaps ?


----------



## hahoo

so u cant get this light in the usa ?


----------



## holylight

No question about the raw power output. Btw has anyone did a maximum runtime on this light. And is there any heating related issue.


----------



## edgar

Light is at home look amazing , never seen such a fast shipping , it surprised me when it arrived this morning !


----------



## One missed call

BUMP

Anyone??



stevo250 said:


> What are people using for holsters for the FF4? I just ordered one and I dont think they come with a holster.


----------



## stevo250

The battery carrier appears to have a loose connection...if i get all the cell into it and wiggle them in the right way i can get the little green led standby lights to come on. if i then place it into the flashlight then the green lights go out and will not come back on. This happens if I have the standby switch in the on or off position before placing the battery carrier into the light. Needless to say I'm not happy about this with such an expensive light and now will have to pay the shipping back to china to have it fixed or replaced :fail: does anyone know where I can get a replacement battery carrier as I would like to try that before shipping the whole light back to China. Thanks


----------



## BVH

Whom did you buy it from? You should be getting with them making a warranty claim to get yourself a new carrier.


----------



## tatasal

stevo250 said:


> The battery carrier appears to have a loose connection...if i get all the cell into it and wiggle them in the right way i can get the little green led standby lights to come on. if i then place it into the flashlight then the green lights go out and will not come back on. This happens if I have the standby switch in the on or off position before placing the battery carrier into the light. Needless to say I'm not happy about this with such an expensive light and now will have to pay the shipping back to china to have it fixed or replaced :fail: does anyone know where I can get a replacement battery carrier as I would like to try that before shipping the whole light back to China. Thanks



I once had that similar problem. After putting all 4 cells, pressing the carrier switch to "ON" would light up the Green Led for a second, then die out. I checked all the cells, only to find out that I had installed one of the 4 cells inverted! I put it back correctly again and the problem was gone.


----------



## Fresh Light

Get a spare carrier from member Lips, here is the US. He sells them for 30.00 and they will have the brighter LED indicator.


----------



## GehenSienachlinks

So does anyone know what current ff4 draws and what the low voltage protection is ?


----------



## RickM39

Got the FF4 from Lips today, what a great light!

In 40w mode ceiling bounce test it keeps up with the SR96 in high mode... until the batteries are done. The SR96 does have 6 cells and is much larger compared with the FF4's 4 cells and compact size.

Compared to the SR90 after running in high for 30 minutes, the FF4 has twice the output even after cutting back to 24w due to heat.

It does get too hot to hold after 40 min or so.. by that time the batteries are about done anyway.

All in all an amazingly bright well made light.

An 8 or 12 cell battery tube would be the ticket for running it for extended intervals.

I'll buy one when they are available.


----------



## edgar

My batterie carrier died today after only 2 charge since i bought the light and the panasonic.
The green light on the carrier blink once and nothing more .


----------



## tatasal

edgar said:


> My batterie carrier died today after only 2 charge since i bought the light and the panasonic.
> The green light on the carrier blink once and nothing more .



The same thing happened to me before, only to find out that one of the cells was inverted.


----------



## edgar

i checked again and again no cell is inverted , i think the carrier is shot .


----------



## InfinitusEquitas

I also had to send mine out due to a problem with the carrier. Only used it for about an hour at most, altogether. It kept flickering, and then last time wouldn't power up at all.


----------



## edgar

is there any place to get a spare batterie carrier for the FF4 ?
Mine failed so fast after that i received the light , that i didnt really enjoyed it .


----------



## tatasal

edgar said:


> is there any place to get a spare batterie carrier for the FF4 ?
> Mine failed so fast after that i received the light , that i didnt really enjoyed it .



I just checked doingoutdoor and they have some on stock.


----------



## edgar

ah thanks i saw it , its a bit expensive , i ll wait untill they receive my broken one and replace it 
Its been almost one month since i sent it ...


----------



## stollman

Got my light from Lips a couple of days ago...very compact and bright. Anybody know an easy way to unscrew the inside bezel to get the lens out. I was thinking of running mine without the lens to avoid the initial potential of build-up on the reflector.


----------



## edgar

there is no deposit to worry about , i would not open it , in fear tu put some dust in there or other stuff and have to wipe and scratch the reflector .


----------



## Nigra

Hi,

I’ve got my Fire-Foxes FF4. It’s amazing HID. But Unfortunately It was working just 20 min. Now When I am trying to turn on it, The HID lamp just spark and I hear high frequency noise. I use brand new Panasonic NCR18650. If somebody had the same problem ? What can be a reason of the issue ?

Thank you for your replies


----------



## mhemling33

Nigra said:


> Hi,
> 
> I’ve got my Fire-Foxes FF4. It’s amazing HID. But Unfortunately It was working just 20 min. Now When I am trying to turn on it, The HID lamp just spark and I hear high frequency noise. I use brand new Panasonic NCR18650. If somebody had the same problem ? What can be a reason of the issue ?
> 
> Thank you for your replies



I had an issue with my battery carrier. On mine it would just cut out after a little bit but if you unscrew the tailswitch a little bit it worked fine. I ordered a new battery carrier but I was also able to fix the one by taking it apart and tightening one of the screws for the columns that would break contact when the tailcap was screwed on all the way.


----------



## edgar

make sure your batteries are fully charged .
This little light dont have alot of runing time tho.


----------



## Nigra

mhemling33, edgar thank you for your advices.I've already checked these but got the same result - My Fire-foxes FF4 doesn't work


----------



## Nigra

Nigra said:


> mhemling33, edgar thank you for your advices.I've already checked these but got the same result - My Fire-foxes FF4 doesn't work



I couldn't find reason of the issue and sent my flashlight back to the seller


----------



## funboat

Just looking around at other threads and on several other forums. There seems to be a high number of failures on this particular light. How reliable are they? I couldnt wait to get one but now Im having second thoughts.


----------



## stevo250

Mine also had a battery carrier issue. Took it appart and checked all the screws and couldn't locate the problem so I ordered a replacement carrier from lips on here and it works great now! The indicator leds are also upgraded and brighter on the new carrier :thumbup:

Sent from my SGH-I727R using Tapatalk 2


----------



## Patriot

stollman said:


> I was thinking of running mine without the lens to avoid the initial potential of build-up on the reflector.




I would treat reflector and head assembly like an operating room if you want to keep it it tip top shape. A slight film on the glass, if it even occurs, is way easier to deal with at the time it needs addressing. Once the reflector is dusty, or worse... it will likely never be the same.


----------



## stollman

Runtime

Just curious what people are getting on their runtimes (Panasonic 3400mah batteries)? Either at 24W or 40W


----------



## oRAirwolf

stollman said:


> Runtime
> 
> Just curious what people are getting on their runtimes (Panasonic 3400mah batteries)? Either at 24W or 40W



I can't quote runtimes on mine, as I have never run it down all the way, but I would advise against using NCR18650B's (3400's). The light is meant to be used with unprotected Panasonic NCR18650PD or NCR18650PF 2900mAh cells, which are a hybrid cell that have less voltage sag at high currents.


----------



## Lips

Not my testing but someone did one...



*Runtime Test*

Sanyo 2600 24W 55min 40W 40min
Panasonic 2900 24W 65min 40W 55min
Panasonic 3400 24w ? 40w ?

Guy I sold one to ran it continuously at 60w. Not sure what batteries he used. Got 7 min at 60w... (3 min + 3 min + 1 min)

Panasonic 2900 mah 18650PD true 10 amp batteries should give most run-time on High Output levels


----------



## stollman

Lips said:


> Not my testing but someone did one...
> 
> 
> 
> *Runtime Test*
> 
> Sanyo 2600 24W 55min 40W 40min
> Panasonic 2900 24W 65min 40W 55min
> Panasonic 3400 24w ? 40w ?
> 
> Guy I sold one to ran it continuously at 60w. Not sure what batteries he used. Got 7 min at 60w... (3 min + 3 min + 1 min)
> 
> Panasonic 2900 mah 18650PD true 10 amp batteries should give most run-time on High Output levels


----------



## stollman

Fire-Foxes advised me today you can get 75min run-time with 3400mah batteries, but the light would technically be too hot to hold.


----------



## stollman

A little video I made on the FF4


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lB2YlTRsYMs


----------



## GehenSienachlinks

Does anyone know how to take out the HID bulb ?


----------



## stollman

*Since this light has a 67mm thread on the front, I was looking for some filters that might work with the light. I called the optical experts at B&H Photo and told them my high temperature application. They recommended the following filters made in Germany (high end). The filters can be purchased at B&H Photo, Amazon and other photography shops. I am not saying these will work, but I am going to try a UV filter and apply a glass etching compound (Armour Etch) to create a diffuser. Just sharing some information for consideration. I sent a copy of this posting to Fire-Foxes for their opinion. If I hear anything back, I'll make another post.*

*B&W Filters:*
· 67mm Standard Size
· Brass Filter Ring (Heat won’t expand ring like that of an Aluminum Ring)
· High Quality Schott Glass (heat resistant)
o http://www.phy.davidson.edu/fachome/dmb/RESolGelGlass/manuals/schottglassfilters.pdf
· Manufactured in Germany

*B+W, UV Haze SC 010 Filter*
· http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/search?Ntt=65-070138&N=0&InitialSearch=yes&sts=ma&Top+Nav-Search=
· Mfr # 65-070138
· Single Coating
· $30.00 

*B+W, UV Haze MRC** M Filter*
· http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/search?Ntt=B%2BW%2C+67mm+multi+uv&N=0&InitialSearch=yes&sts=ma&Top+Nav-Search=
· Mfr # 66-070236
· Multi-Coating (anti-reflection coating-> increases light transmission
· $42.00

*B&W, #29 Dark Red (091) Filter*
· http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/search?Ntt=65-072121&N=0&InitialSearch=yes&sts=ma&Top+Nav-Search=
· Mfr # 65-072121
· Glass is colored. There is no “tint film”
· $42.00

*B&W, #8 Yellow (022) MRC Filter*
· http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/search?Ntt=66-045921&N=0&InitialSearch=yes&sts=ma&Top+Nav-Search=
· Mfg# 66-045921
· Glass is colored. There is no “tint film”
· $52.00


----------



## stollman

I purchased a clear B+W 67mm UV Filter and turned in into a Diffuser for the light.
I used a glass etching compound found at most craft stores.
I did consider using a Hoya 67mm HMC UV(c) filter, but I did not think it would stand up to the heat. 
The B&H Photo expert I talked to said the B+W would be a good choice for a high temp application.
Below is a picture that shows both filters. The Hoya weighs 1.8oz and the B+W weighs 2.9 oz.
The B+W Filter is much more robust than the Hoya, and incorporates a high quality glass with a brass ring 
which is resistant to heat expansion (unlike the Hoya filter). 







B+W Filter as sold in original condition





B+W Filter with glass etching





Beam shot without the Diffuser:






Beam shot with the Diffuser:





Diffuser on the FF4 with the lens cap:





I ran the light for 10 minutes with the Diffuser on it without issue. The light was pretty hot by then.
No damage to the light or the filter. The filter easily unscrewed after the light cooled off.

I think the B+W Line filters should work fine with this light.

Per an earlier post, B+W makes a red and yellow 67mm filter.


----------



## GehenSienachlinks

Hi , all i have a couple of questions about the FF4 .


I don't know if this is normal in a new light, there is some wear on the contacts I have just opened the light twice ?

https://skydrive.live.com/redir?resid=518D18A8F942A129!170


The bought an extra bulb but there is a spot inside the bulb I dont know if this is normal for HID's . Is there a safe way to test the bulb to see if it's working ?
https://skydrive.live.com/redir?resid=518D18A8F942A129!172

https://skydrive.live.com/redir?resid=518D18A8F942A129!171

This last picture is not a concern just wanted to share it , when i got the light it was cold outside so when it was delivered the temperature change made the glass fog up and there where many lines running across it .
https://skydrive.live.com/redir?resid=518D18A8F942A129!174

https://skydrive.live.com/redir?resid=518D18A8F942A129!173


----------



## BVH

I don't see any pics? It is normal to see some cloudy-looking material on the inside of the bulbous arc chamber of the bulb. That material vaporizes when the lamp is lit. Some FF's have had fogging problems and some have not. Can't see the "contact" pics so can't comment.


----------



## Icehole

stollman said:


> Diffuser on the FF4 with the lens cap:



I know you stated this somewhere in another thread, but I cannot find it..the lens cap is a standard 67mm lens cap?

thanks!


----------



## mcorp

Yes a standard 67mm lens cap would fit perfectly. However you might want to let it cool down entirely before putting on the lens cap, the heat might just melt the lenscap! 

Mcorp


----------



## borgqueenx

because this flashlight can only accept unprotected batteries....what about the low-voltage protection? Will it protect the batteries?
or....?


----------



## stollman

Pelican 1200 Case with Pick-N-Pluck Foam

I made a nice case that holds my FF4, (8) Batteries, Spare Battery Cartridge and Home-Made Diffuser




[/URL][/IMG]


----------



## Taschenlampe Dude

^^^^

That looks great, stollman. Good job!


----------



## ven

Taschenlampe Dude said:


> ^^^^
> 
> That looks great, stollman. Good job!




+1 with that,fantastic :thumbsup:


----------



## mcorp

deleted


----------



## ma tumba

What about color rendition in ff4 as compared to an Incan? A hid can have a cri from negative values to about 96%, what about this particular bulb?


----------



## mhemling33

stollman said:


> Pelican 1200 Case with Pick-N-Pluck Foam
> 
> I made a nice case that holds my FF4, (8) Batteries, Spare Battery Cartridge and Home-Made Diffuser
> 
> 
> 
> [/URL][/IMG]



Looks great!! Now I want a nice case... I just keep mine in the box


----------



## double0thirteen

No need to quote that post, just above your's. Quote removed.

Hi, my first post here after long time lurking.

I can't help but see that your battery carrier -ve springs looks different.
How did you manage to shove in those 18650's?

I just got mine a couple of weeks ago and do not want to try to modify mine fear of ruining the circuits inside the carrier. Does anybody sell the carrier with the modified springs?
I have both protected and unprotected panasonics, I have a tough time to get them in even with the shorter unprotected cells.

Alas before you say get in touch of Lips, I have tried to email him but I can't seem to get through.....

TIA


----------



## RichS

doubl0thirteen said:


> No need to quote that post, just above your's. Quote removed.
> 
> Hi, my first post here after long time lurking.
> 
> I can't help but see that your battery carrier -ve springs looks different.
> How did you manage to shove in those 18650's?
> 
> I just got mine a couple of weeks ago and do not want to try to modify mine fear of ruining the circuits inside the carrier. Does anybody sell the carrier with the modified springs?
> I have both protected and unprotected panasonics, I have a tough time to get them in even with the shorter unprotected cells.
> 
> Alas before you say get in touch of Lips, I have tried to email him but I can't seem to get through.....
> 
> TIA



Hi Tia,

I used protected AW 18650 3100mAh li-ions in both my FF3 and FF4. All I did was take a pare of wire cutters and clipped a few coils of the spring so they could fit. I am not a modder, but anyone can clip a spring.. I then used a pare of needle nose pliers to gently bend down the pointy end of the newly clipped spring so it wouldn't scratch the bottom of the battery. Super simple mod, and it allowed me to run protected batteries, which was very important to me since it was running 4 in series..

Here's a thread where I show the carrier with the clipped spring. The carrier on my FF4 was identicle to my FF3.

Hope this helps!


----------



## GehenSienachlinks

I went for a 40 minute walk with my FF4 and the light does get hot so after about 20~25 minutes I opened the light and took the battery carrier out to see how hot inside of the light and the batteries are , they where pretty warm . I let the light cool down for a minute then put the batteries back in ,after 10~15 minutes I took the batteries out again and this time they where very hot to the point that they where uncomfortable to hold .

I am only guessing here but I would say they where between 45 -50C 

It can't been good for the batteries to get that hot for their capacity/lifetime and the potential for them to explode . I know that they have a limit of 60C but I am using 18650 PF cells , do you guys have similar experiences with your FF4 and do you feel comfortable using LiCoO2 ,​ , ICR 3100 and 3400 Cells since there are the least safe ?


----------



## RichS

GehenSienachlinks said:


> I went for a 40 minute walk with my FF4 and the light does get hot so after about 20~25 minutes I opened the light and took the battery carrier out to see how hot inside of the light and the batteries are , they where pretty warm . I let the light cool down for a minute then put the batteries back in ,after 10~15 minutes I took the batteries out again and this time they where very hot to the point that they where uncomfortable to hold .
> 
> I am only guessing here but I would say they where between 45 -50C
> 
> It can't been good for the batteries to get that hot for their capacity/lifetime and the potential for them to explode . I know that they have a limit of 60C but I am using 18650 PF cells , do you guys have similar experiences with your FF4 and do you feel comfortable using LiCoO2 ,​ , ICR 3100 and 3400 Cells since there are the least safe ?



Were you running it on 40W the entire time? if so, yes, it gets very hot after about 20 minutes or so. I wouldn't be comfortable with using the light on 40W for runs any longer than that, and it does take quite a while to cool down. It's just to small and 42W just generates too much heat for it..

That's why it's so nice that the FF4 has the ability to be run in 24W.


----------



## GehenSienachlinks

I was using 24W for about 15 minutes the rest was 42W .


----------



## stollman

Just bought a 4X CREE Skyray LED Flashlight. At the end of the YouTube clip, I did some beam shots of the Skyray versus the FF4 (low power)....pretty close regarding lumen output. The FF4 has much better throw than the Skyray, but the Skyray has a nice flood effect. Needless to say, there is no comparison between the Skyray and the FF4 at 40W & 60W.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hcZQHM-SdTM


----------



## Zephrus

BVH said:


> Always hate to see references to small, hand-held lights "throwing 1500 meters/Yards" Utterly ridiculous. Even a Gen3 Maxabeam is pretty much useless at that distance - unless it's on a steady tripod and you're using an 8" or better telescope to view the target.



My thoughts exactly, BVH. Folks, if you have 2.5 million years to wait, your light can throw all the way to the Andromeda galaxy ... if you're willing to measure the output *one photon at a time*. If I'm not mistaken (correct me if I'm wrong) most manufactures measure max throw as what would be considered around 0.25 lux (roughly moonlight?) falling on an object illuminated by said source. So yeah, even at 1500 meters you'll have *some* of the light falling on the object you're aiming it at, (a few photons will fall on the moon if you point your light that way) but is it useful? No. You could never identify anything at that range with that little amount of light. And for the most part, the name of the game is positive identification. Is it a person, tree, deer, rock or bigfoot?

My general rule of thumb when considering any light is to automatically cut the "max throw" distance to about one-third, and that is the max "useful" distance (objects can be identified). So far this rule has worked pretty well for me ... and we have already seen that the FF4 can, on a clear night, illuminate reasonably well at 500 meters ... although you may need a spotting scope or binoculars to see what it's illuminating.


----------



## stollman

stollman said:


> Just bought a 4X CREE Skyray LED Flashlight. At the end of the YouTube clip, I did some beam shots of the Skyray versus the FF4 (low power)....pretty close regarding lumen output. The FF4 has much better throw than the Skyray, but the Skyray has a nice flood effect. Needless to say, there is no comparison between the Skyray and the FF4 at 40W & 60W.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hcZQHM-SdTM




Fixed the Video to make it "public"


----------



## Zephrus

Nice comparison. Thanks for posting.


----------



## richardcpf

Hello I've been reading this thread for quite a while and decided to pull the trigger on one of these. I was going for a RC40 but then I realized I have too many multi-led flashlights already, with MM15 coming in the way. So I only look forward to one more led flashlight this year and it's the Armytek Grizzly.

My main concern is purchasing it in the first place, I have contacted member Lips and his sell thread and had no response after several attempts. Also it looks abandoned since the last response was 4 months ago. In a famous Chinese website it says that they won't ship to the US. And the other site which has stock doesn't look very reliable. So technically there is only 1 way to buy this light from an official dealer?

Thanks for your help.


----------



## tatasal

richardcpf said:


> Hello I've been reading this thread for quite a while and decided to pull the trigger on one of these. I was going for a RC40 but then I realized I have too many multi-led flashlights already, with MM15 coming in the way. So I only look forward to one more led flashlight this year and it's the Armytek Grizzly.
> 
> My main concern is purchasing it in the first place, I have contacted member Lips and his sell thread and had no response after several attempts. Also it looks abandoned since the last response was 4 months ago. In a famous Chinese website it says that they won't ship to the US. And the other site which has stock doesn't look very reliable. So technically there is only 1 way to buy this light from an official dealer?
> 
> Thanks for your help.



PM sent.


----------



## Lips

New *EXTREME 65w* version with *Stainless Steel Bezel*
(20w - 40w - 65w)


----------



## Glenn7

So exact same light just an SS bezel? Or is there some other changes.


----------



## Glenn7

Double post


----------



## ampdude

> New EXTREME 65w version with Stainless Steel Bezel
> (20w - 40w - 65w)



The only mention I see of it in a search is your post and a thread in a german forum with a link to a store that is out of stock... any more info?


----------



## InfinitusEquitas

Glenn7 said:


> So exact same light just an SS bezel? Or is there some other changes.



Could be wrong, but it looks like the SS bezel just screws in on top of the light. If that's the case can it be purchased separately I wonder? For now I keep like covered with a camera lens cover.


----------



## Grifter9931

This looks like a great addition to a collection


----------



## Lips

Glenn7 said:


> So exact same light just an SS bezel? Or is there some other changes.



+ 5w in highest setting power (original is 60w and extreme is 65w on high)
Stainless Steel Bezel ( Looks better )
Larger Logo
Minor internal tweeks

No info yet on Ff5


.


----------



## Glenn7

Cool thanks sounds nice 
Hope they change the fact that if you go into turbo then when it steps down that they use a thermal step down not a timer, also allow it to be stepped up to turbo again (when its cooled down enough) and not have to turn the light off to then reuse the 65W setting.


----------



## ampdude

Glenn7 said:


> Cool thanks sounds nice
> Hope they change the fact that if you go into turbo then when it steps down that they use a thermal step down not a timer, also allow it to be stepped up to turbo again (when its cooled down enough) and not have to turn the light off to then reuse the 65W setting.



Definitely some legit questions... looking forward to the answers. Was never into the FF4 up to this point because of all the mode switching weirdness. I still have my FF3.


----------



## zweibelkopf

Does anyone know if extra battery carriers are available for the FF4?
Price?


----------



## Taschenlampe Dude

zweibelkopf said:


> Does anyone know if extra battery carriers are available for the FF4?
> Price?



Send CPF member Lips a PM. He posted on the previous page of this thread (post #383). He should be able to help you.


----------



## richardcpf

Received my FF4 today.

Indeed a very impressive light. Massive output, incredible throw for its size. Clean beam with little artifacts, CW tint.

With 4x NCR18650B it ran about 5 minutes at high before it was too hot to hold. I can't notice much difference between low and med, but this light is meant to be on high all the time. :naughty:

Compliments my MM15 very nicely.






*CONTROL SHOT

*




*HIGH MODE. TREES ARE PROBABLY 100M AWAY, I GUESS?

*




*WITH THE BIG BOYS


*I plan to do more extended beamshots of the ff4 along with my led lights and the Hellfighter.


----------



## InfinitusEquitas

Switch to high drain 18650's for both the MM15, and FF4, you will notice more of a difference between medium and high on FF4, and a small increase in output for the mm15.


----------



## double0thirteen

Does the MM15 have comparable performance with the FF4?
If the MM15 can run just a tad bit cooler then it might just replace the FF4 as my primary light with the FF4 relegated as back up.
For my application the FF4 gets too hot for prolong use.


----------



## thedoc007

doubl0thirteen said:


> Does the MM15 have comparable performance with the FF4?
> If the MM15 can run just a tad bit cooler then it might just replace the FF4 as my primary light with the FF4 relegated as back up.



The MM15 and FF4 are completely different lights. The FF4 is primarily a thrower, the MM15 is a dedicated flooder. On turbo, the MM15 cannot run more than a few minutes, and it gets hot very quickly. Of all the lights I own, it heats up the fastest. Doesn't sound like it is the right solution for you.


----------



## double0thirteen

thedoc007 said:


> The MM15 and FF4 are completely different lights. The FF4 is primarily a thrower, the MM15 is a dedicated flooder. On turbo, the MM15 cannot run more than a few minutes, and it gets hot very quickly. Of all the lights I own, it heats up the fastest. Doesn't sound like it is the right solution for you.



Thanks Doc,
The mention of the MM15 made me think. I'm in the lookout for similar performing backup to the FF4, I'm happy running it at 20W. That is till it cuts off....


----------



## InfinitusEquitas

They are about the same based on ceiling bounce, but totally different lights outside. If you need to light things up close by, like within ~100-200 feet at most, the MM15 will work great.

If you want to light something up way downrange, the FF4 is a better option. Heat is an issue with both, but definitely more so with the mm15. This may be in part to it having better heat dissipation.

I've run my mm15 to where it was getting hot to hold, shut off, took out batteries, but noticed it actually got even hotter shortly after turning off.


----------



## richardcpf

The MM15 got to be one of the the worst when it comes to throw. Even the triple XPG P60 drop in throws further, but in exchange, it gives a very smooth perfectly tinted flood beam and has the most WOW factor out of all my multi-18650 lights. It does get hot really quickly, I often limit it to only mode 4 which is about 800 lumens. Heat is not that much of a concern when it comes to the FF4 because both the ballast and bulb can handle it well, but the batteries not so much.

This is why the MM15 and the FF4 complements each other almost perfectly. Even at 24w mode, the FF4 provides a sharp beam with a lot of reach. While the MM15 can shine a wall 5ft away in turbo and it won't blind you with a intense spot.

I have 4 sets of Panasonic NCR18650BD on the way to use on both my FF4 and MM15. They provide better balance in capacity and discharge rate compared to an IMR cell.


----------



## bigsteve

The ff4s is now out but is it a ff4 just re-badged?


----------



## InfinitusEquitas

Seems like a 5W bump, maybe, on the high mode, and a steel bezel. Not much of an update.


----------



## Severus

where I could find a place / website to purchase this lights?


----------



## InfinitusEquitas

PM sent.


----------



## pebbles

I ordered the 65 watt version today. If all goes well, I will not regret selling my TN32.


----------



## ImagioX1

So exactly where is everyone getting their FF4? I see on FireFoxes website that there is only one authorized dealer in the US and member "Lip" is the dealer but how do I go about purchasing one?


----------



## BVH

I just sent an email to him pointing to your post.


----------



## ImagioX1

BVH said:


> I just sent an email to him pointing to your post.



Thanks. I'm looking forward to his pm.


----------



## woodsman99

Very old thread I know.. just wondering if anyone is still selling a spare battery carrier for the FF4. My flashlight has suddenly stopped working after about 100 hours of use over some years (never dropped) and just trying to rule out common problems.

Also, I bought my FF4 from Wallbuys 4 years ago (not used frequently).. has anybody tried returning their FF4 under the limited warranty scheme? Are problems with the battery carrier covered?

Also, do I just return to Wallbuys or to a specialized repair centre? I'm in Europe.

Thanks for any advice you can provide.

Scott


----------



## LuxLuthor

Hi Scott!

Funny you should resurrect this old thread, as I was just looking at my FF3 &FF4, and the carrier for the FF3 doesn’t work. 

I cleaned the contacts, coated with DeOxIt, fresh Panasonic charged batteries, but no contact. Other carrier works fine. There is some being sold on Amazon for $96, but I got mine originally from member Lips @ FF forum. Not sure how to contact him after all this time, as he was last active at FF’s over 2 yrs ago. BVH, or anyone who can put me in touch with Lips would be appreciated.

My email is [email protected]

The website address on the pamphlet http://www.fire-foxes.com  is dead.


----------



## woodsman99

LuxLuthor said:


> Hi Scott!
> 
> Funny you should resurrect this old thread, as I was just looking at my FF3 &FF4, and the carrier for the FF3 doesn’t work.
> 
> I cleaned the contacts, coated with DeOxIt, fresh Panasonic charged batteries, but no contact. Other carrier works fine. There is some being sold on Amazon for $96, but I got mine originally from member Lips @ FF forum. Not sure how to contact him after all this time, as he was last active at FF’s over 2 yrs ago. BVH, or anyone who can put me in touch with Lips would be appreciated.
> 
> My email is [email protected]
> 
> The website address on the pamphlet http://www.fire-foxes.com  is dead.


Just to second the request about getting in contact with Lips... seems there are good and bad battery carriers out there, and I see Lips has a good reputation on the forum for selling quality accessories.

I checked out the webstore selling the carriers on Amazon for $96, and there are lots of recent complaints and 1* reviews unfortunately about the vendor.

I see banggood dot com has the carrier advertised for $40, but they are out of stock (and also don't seem to stock fire-foxes anymore... so probably this situation is permanent).

Has anyone been able to strip down an FF3 or FF4 and do diagnostics on the internals before (with a multi-meter for example). If so, any pointers where to start are appreciated. There is always the possibility that one of my kids has dropped my FF4 without telling me ("Mr Nobody" is often to blame for unexplained breakages and problems around the house!)

Scott


----------



## LuxLuthor

Well you could try a purchase from Amazon, and if it doesn’t work out, just do a return/refund with Amazon.

No other choices. 

Ill let let you know if I hear from Lips.


----------



## LuxLuthor

I did just hear from Lips (Vic) from another email that BVH gave me, and he is well, but alas no more FF3/FF/4 parts available. 

Luckily when i rummaged around, I found that I had bought a spare battery carrier that now restores both of my FF’s to working status. There are 4 set screws in one end of holder, but mine are stripped, so no Allen wrench will unscrew them. 

I suspect there is a small circuit board inside that has a failed component, given the voltage and amps flowing into the HID ballast. It’s a shame for those owners who have no other battery holder, as this renders their otherwise impressive small HID useless.

Also I did place an order for that $96 holder listed on Amazon in mid March before I found my spare, but it was never delivered, and no reply from “BigBazaar” seller. Amazon refunded me.


----------



## One missed call 2

LuxLuthor said:


> I did just hear from Lips (Vic) from another email that BVH gave me, and he is well, but alas no more FF3/FF/4 parts available.
> 
> Luckily when i rummaged around, I found that I had bought a spare battery carrier that now restores both of my FF’s to working status. There are 4 set screws in one end of holder, but mine are stripped, so no Allen wrench will unscrew them.
> 
> I suspect there is a small circuit board inside that has a failed component, given the voltage and amps flowing into the HID ballast. It’s a shame for those owners who have no other battery holder, as this renders their otherwise impressive small HID useless.
> 
> Also I did place an order for that $96 holder listed on Amazon in mid March before I found my spare, but it was never delivered, and no reply from “BigBazaar” seller. Amazon refunded me.



One of my favorite lights. I am glad I bought a spar carrier years ago when I heard that some other members had issues. If anyone ever finds another source for the carriers, please let me/us know. Couldn't hurt to have a 2nd spare as I would hate to toss a perfectly good light because of a carrier. Thanks.


----------



## LuxLuthor

I doubt any of these will show up again, such a long time since featured, and no contact from any sellers or the manufacturer.


----------



## DOHC20

i too would be interested in some spare parts like a bulb and battery carrier for my FF4, i did some digging on the net for fire foxes and i came up with this website...

https://henry548.en.ec21.com/


seems its the parent company or something like that for fire foxes..if you check out their products section it seem they are selling a 40W HID with a similar shape battery tube/carrier possibly..i tried e mailing the contact on there but have heard nothing back as yet..maybe some of you guys could try as well if interested?


----------



## ampdude

You ever hear anything from them?

I was thinking of trying to get a run of spare lenses made by someone here in the States for the FF3 and FF4 since they never came with spares. It would REALLY suck if one of my lenses broke!!!


----------



## darkduude

What would a mint condition FF4 sell for now days? Only been on for 10 minutes to make sure it worked.


----------



## archimedes

darkduude said:


> What would a mint condition FF4 sell for now days? Only been on for 10 minutes to make sure it worked.


Searching completed sales is the recommended approach for that info


----------



## darkduude

Thanks I'll look for results.


----------



## light-modder

darkduude I sent you a PM.


----------



## netmon22

woodsman99 said:


> Very old thread I know.. just wondering if anyone is still selling a spare battery carrier for the FF4. My flashlight has suddenly stopped working after about 100 hours of use over some years (never dropped) and just trying to rule out common problems.
> 
> Also, I bought my FF4 from Wallbuys 4 years ago (not used frequently).. has anybody tried returning their FF4 under the limited warranty scheme? Are problems with the battery carrier covered?
> 
> Also, do I just return to Wallbuys or to a specialized repair centre? I'm in Europe.
> 
> Thanks for any advice you can provide.
> 
> Scott



I know you posted this a year ago, but I purchased 2 of the ff4 right as they were released. 1 for me and 1 for my dad. Mine worked for 10 seconds and I thought the battery carrier was bad since that green light would come on and go off randomly. I ordered another battery carrier maybe 6 months later and same problem. but now by that time it was out of warranty so I started trying to find something wrong inside and one of the components inside the flashlight nearest the bottom center of the reflector had grounded out with the bottlm of the bulb. My dads to this day still works fine and I see it every weekend sitting on his kitchen counter. I wanted one so bad and finally had the money to get us both one and I got 5-10 seconds out of it for apx $280 or so + $50 for a replacement battery carrier (I've got one if you still need one).


----------



## larryk

I had an intermittent problem with mine. I thought it was the batter carrier at first but it turned out the 3 battery contacts in the head were the problem. The solder joint inside came loose. You can easily check yours with your finger. The 3 contacts should be tight, if you can wiggle 1 or all of them you have a broken solder joint. Maybe this is helpful.


----------



## aginthelaw

netmon22 said:


> I know you posted this a year ago, but I purchased 2 of the ff4 right as they were released. 1 for me and 1 for my dad. Mine worked for 10 seconds and I thought the battery carrier was bad since that green light would come on and go off randomly. I ordered another battery carrier maybe 6 months later and same problem. but now by that time it was out of warranty so I started trying to find something wrong inside and one of the components inside the flashlight nearest the bottom center of the reflector had grounded out with the bottlm of the bulb. My dads to this day still works fine and I see it every weekend sitting on his kitchen counter. I wanted one so bad and finally had the money to get us both one and I got 5-10 seconds out of it for apx $280 or so + $50 for a replacement battery carrier (I've got one if you still need one).



I’ll take the battery carrier if he doesn’t want it. Couldn’t send you a pm


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## LuxLuthor

netmon22 said:


> I know you posted this a year ago, but I purchased 2 of the ff4 right as they were released. 1 for me and 1 for my dad. Mine worked for 10 seconds and I thought the battery carrier was bad since that green light would come on and go off randomly. I ordered another battery carrier maybe 6 months later and same problem. but now by that time it was out of warranty so I started trying to find something wrong inside and one of the components inside the flashlight nearest the bottom center of the reflector had grounded out with the bottlm of the bulb. My dads to this day still works fine and I see it every weekend sitting on his kitchen counter. I wanted one so bad and finally had the money to get us both one and I got 5-10 seconds out of it for apx $280 or so + $50 for a replacement battery carrier (I've got one if you still need one).



If you can please contact me about getting your extra battery holder at [email protected] Thanks!


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## LuxLuthor

I took my spare battery pack apart--had to dremel the 4 set screws just outside the top springs to get the top off, and found a loose screw inside. Once I tightened it up...voila...battery carrier worked perfectly. May not be as cosmetic, but who cares?

The newer FF4 model holders use different screws and are more secure.


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## aginthelaw

LuxLuthor said:


> I took my spare battery pack apart--had to dremel the 4 set screws just outside the top springs to get the top off, and found a loose screw inside. Once I tightened it up...voila...battery carrier worked perfectly. May not be as cosmetic, but who cares?
> 
> The newer FF4 model holders use different screws and are more secure.



I’m gonna have to send mine to you and see what you can do with it


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## ampdude

Eh, I have both models, the FF4 and FF3. I need to check them all out now. I know the FF3 battery carrier has different circuitry than the FF4. I didn't know the FF4's vary. I can't remember, but I think I popped one FF3 in an FF4 and they both worked in different lights. Not entirely sure it was quite awhile ago.


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## LuxLuthor

aginthelaw said:


> I’m gonna have to send mine to you and see what you can do with it



might as well, as these carriers make the whole light useless. 

I can’t guarantee my bush fix will work on yours, but I’m glad to fix this one, plus I had bought a spare carrier from Lips with original sale. I just like having spare parts/bulbs for all my lights. 

pm me


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## LuxLuthor

ampdude said:


> Eh, I have both models, the FF4 and FF3. I need to check them all out now. I know the FF3 battery carrier has different circuitry than the FF4. I didn't know the FF4's vary. I can't remember, but I think I popped one FF3 in an FF4 and they both worked in different lights. Not entirely sure it was quite awhile ago.



You are correct that the battery carriers are interchangeable between FF3 & FF4. I’m not aware of any circuitry/features differences between them. They both output 4s with center ring being the + output.


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