# Cream first, then coffee or vice versa: does it matter?



## js (Jun 2, 2006)

Some time ago, SilverFox told me that someone he was working with had *insisted* that if you pour your cream, or half and half, or milk *FIRST* and then your coffee, that you would end up with a noticeably more flavorful drink than doing the reverse.

Strange, huh?

Tom, being a black coffee drinker, couldn't investigate this, as his true scientific spirit wanted. So, being the evil being that he is, he mentioned it to me during one of our phone conversations. My first reaction was "What? It can't possibly matter!" Then I started thinking about it and trying to see if I could think of any theoretical basis that would explain this fact, as well as simply wondering if it WAS a fact at all, or if this guy was blowing smoke up Tom's nether regions.

For about half a month, everytime I went to get coffee I would pour the coffee first and then add the cream. Habit. It's just the way I've always done it, and practically, it is easier because you can judge the amount of cream by the color of your beverage. Then one fateful day, I remembered in time, and poured the half and half first. And lo and behold! It seemed to me that the result was smoother with a cleaner after-taste.

Over the past month or two I've gone back and forth and I'm pretty sure that I taste a difference and that adding the creamer (of whatever sort) first is better to my pallate. The next scientific test would be a blind taste test. LOL!

For the record, I did all of this for the fun of it, and so I could report back to Tom and help him satisfy his intense and insatiable thirst for empirical results. And I post this now simply for the fun of it. I think it's a real hoot. I will hold off on discussing why I think the difference does exist and the basis for it.

So check out the poll and vote if you drink coffee (or even if you don't, I guess)


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## TinderBox (UK) (Jun 2, 2006)

I heard that if you add the milk before the hot water, it protects the flavour of the coffee or tea from being damaged by the heat.

regards.


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## js (Jun 2, 2006)

TinderBox,

Not a self-consistent explanation because the tea or coffee is *ALREADY* as hot as it is ever going to get when you are pouring it into your cup. This would mean that black coffee drinkers are drinking the worst tasting coffee because it stays hotter longer. This is definitely not true. The after taste of black coffee is even cleaner and better than doing creamer first, then coffee.

However, I believe you are thinking along the right track. IMO.


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## ACMarina (Jun 2, 2006)

I just mix milk and sugar together. Coffee is just for coloring


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## Solstice (Jun 2, 2006)

I prefer my coffee unmodded, that is to say, BLACK .


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## BB (Jun 2, 2006)

In cooking, you frequently start with the cold, and add the hot a bit at a time (and continue mixing) until the cold is very warm... This prevents scalding/flash cooking of the cold product. Most often done with eggs (frosting, egg based sauces, etc.) or otherwise you end up with chunky/scrambled eggs in your sauce/mixture.

Milk does taste differently--depending on how hot and how fast you heat it. I would guess that dumping the milk into the hot coffee would give it more of a "cooked" taste.

-Bill


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## js (Jun 2, 2006)

BB,

This is precisely my guess as to why there does seem to me to be a difference.


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## leukos (Jun 2, 2006)

I dislike coffee, have it whatever way you like. :nana:


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## DUQ (Jun 2, 2006)

leukos said:


> I dislike coffee, have it whatever way you like. :nana:



:duh2: Somethin wrong with that guy for sure. :banned:


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## TedTheLed (Jun 2, 2006)

I think what Tinder meant was (and here I take a deep breath of air to avoid the 'vapors') to add the milk to dry coffee grounds (!) and then add the hot water. This is an even more bizzare concept than the milk first or second variations.

I can't vote yet because I haven't tried the comparison, and have already had my morning two cups (Kenya Ithima) -- but I should have an opinion by this afternoon.. 

BB, you may be on the right track, the addition of hot coffee into the cup already containing the milk may heat the milk more slowly and to less of a degree.. otoh suddenly heated milk (30 seconds or so) is one of the prime ingredients of cappucino... overheating the milk can spoil it in this case too, but I don't think hot brewed coffee gets nearly as hot as steam used in espresso machines..

"do not pour boiling water on your coffee grounds..pour it when it when the bubbles stop."


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## nethiker (Jun 2, 2006)

Interesting notion. I drink my coffee black so I will venture a guess based on the assumption that there is a difference in taste.

In cooking, the order ingredients are added does make a difference in the results. Temperature is one reason, to avoid scrambling eggs as mentioned. I suppose it is possible that a very hot beverage could scald the initial bit of cream but I don't think it is responsible for a much noticed taste difference. One way to tell for sure would be to let your coffee/tea cool a bit before adding the cream and see if that reproduces the "fresh" taste of the cream added first beverage.

I would offer that the order of ingredients effects the taste because of the way liquids emulsify when one contains fat. When making an imulsified sauce, you start with your fat and slowly add the non-fat liquid while stirring to evenly incorporate it into the fatty liquid. If you do this in reverse by pouring say oil into vinegar slowly while stirring, you will not be able to get a smooth dressing. I'm guessing that the idea is to slowly slip the non-fat parts between the fat parts so that the everything is evenly distributed and held together. Don't know if that makes any sense, but the resulting mixture is stucturally different. Perhaps this equates to a taste difference or perhaps this is just an over-analyzed explanation:shrug:.


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## BB (Jun 2, 2006)

If you want to know the chemistry of food--then watch Alton Brown on the Food Network... He talks about that subject in many of his shows.

Hmm.... Looked at Alton Brown's Bio--perhaps this should be added to another thread of two here on CPF...



> Alton Brown's flair in the kitchen developed early with guidance from his mother and grandmother, _*a budding culinary talent he skillfully used later "as a way to get dates" in college.*_ Switching gears as an adult, Alton spent a decade working as a cinematographer and video director, but realized that he spent all his time between shoots watching cooking shows,



-Bill


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## AuroraLite (Jun 2, 2006)

I think it might matter to some extent if the whatever poured in first will 'cling' onto the surface of the cup and the tongue get more flavors from that. But most of the time when I drink my coffee in a hurry, coffee -> sugar -> cream will ensure the sugar will melt properly and quickly while the creamer could make a hot drink more drinkable in shorter time. If I pour in the creamer/milk first, not only will I slow down the sugar melting process, the higher chance of spilled coffee might potentially create a mess as well.

Of course, coffee at leisure is always the best.


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## js (Jun 2, 2006)

For all of you LOSERS who voted for option #1 :nana: I suggest that you actually DO THE EXPERIMENT. Geesh. Of course, I only have myself to blame--I'm the one who worded the options. LOL!

However, the difference is definitely subtle, and I definitely would NOT get bent out of shape drinking a coffee-->cream cup of coffee. In fact, a lot of times you have no choice, as the coffee cup gets handed to you already (mostly) full.

Anyway, definitely, you can imagine that first drop of cream gets super-heated, super-fast. There is definitely a temperature-curve difference of the cream between the two scenarios.

Also, I was thinking, I use half and half. I wonder if this becomes a non-issue for those who use milk as a coffee creamer? That would explain the cappucino situation I suppose.


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## Trashman (Jun 2, 2006)

js said:


> For all of you LOSERS who voted for option #1 :nana: I suggest that you actually DO THE EXPERIMENT.



Ok, I did vote for option #1, but I guess I should have picked. It was definitely your wording that drove me to pick #1. If #2 would have asked, "Are you insane(?)," in the second question, I probably would have picked that one.


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## Minjin (Jun 2, 2006)

When I make coffee at work, I pour all the ammendments into a cup first so I can more easily judge how much of each to use. Another thing I like about this is that it takes much less stirring as the act of pouring the coffee does most of it for me. It also gives me something to do while I wait for the coffee machine to finish. So, I think I do it mainly for logical, convenient reasons instead of taste.

Mark


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## Sub_Umbra (Jun 2, 2006)

There's a place in the French Quarter that has been pouring the coffee *and* the cream into the cup _at the same time_ 24/7...for around 170 years...


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## tvodrd (Jun 2, 2006)

Uh Jim, have they checked your electron-positron collider for _leakage_ from the detector area recently?  (Maybe you're a lead foil HAT candidate.  ) I drink mine black to the tune of ~1.5 pots/day! (Wheee!)

Larry


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## PlayboyJoeShmoe (Jun 2, 2006)

Can't see how it matters, but then I voted it _DOES_ matter.

I use sugar and non-dairy creamer, and since I use the same mug every day, I know EXACTLY how much of each I like.

I think you actually had to be in the service to LIKE black coffee!!!


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## morituri (Jun 2, 2006)

I only take my coffee black, with sugar. If I want milk, I'll have a glass of milk ;-)


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## brightnorm (Jun 3, 2006)

Back in my non heart-healthy youth I'd sweeten a cup of black coffee, then take a refrigerated container of heavy cream and get the pouring lip as close to the coffee surface as possible and gently pour a thick film of heavy cream right across the surface of the coffee, and drink the sweet coffee right through the heavy cream which stayed relatively cool for a short while. It was heavenly!

Brightnorm


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## TedTheLed (Jun 4, 2006)

Bright, you realize of course this is the precise experience desired when milk is "micro-foamed" in the espresso-capucinno process? You have had a well-prepared capucinno? Making the micro-foam (from non-fat milk) is just about the hardest part. Most people make it with the bubbles too big. It's supposed to be thick and creamy..

I suppose you could refridgerate the foam..mmm...


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## TedTheLed (Jun 4, 2006)

OK I tried the milk first a couple times, I think I know the answer. When you put the milk in the cup first, you put in more milk than you would normally pour into the coffee..it's an unconcious move that your concious enjoys..

usually I add the milk to the coffee, and stop pouring based on the color of the coffee. When I poured the milk first, the coffee as always much lighter than I usually make it. Not "more flavorful" though (well yeah if you consider milk a flavor..) -- but certainly smoother..


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## brightnorm (Jun 4, 2006)

Ted,

Somehow it never felt quite the same. If you get a chance, try my approach (just once because it's so loaded with saturated fat) and let me know what you think. Getting the cream (must be heavy cream) onto the surface is a little tricky.

Brightnorm


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## PhotonWrangler (Jun 4, 2006)

Whenever I go to a restaurant to order coffee, I usually ask for half-caff. Sometimes I have to explain to the cashier that I want a cup that's filled halfway with regular and the other half with decaf. Occasionally I'll run into a young, well intentioned cashier who will ask me which one to pour in first.


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## TedTheLed (Jun 4, 2006)

:chuckle: so? which first Photon, cafe or decafe? 
-- does it make a difference as to when the jitters come on? which way would go best with my egg-eggbeaters, rye-wheat toast and OJato juice? :grin: ..when ever I order the waiter seems to get jittery before I do..for some odd reason..


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## PhotonWrangler (Jun 4, 2006)

Once I add the cream and sweetener and stir it up, it doesn't matter much...  
at least I don't THINK it does...


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## js (Jun 5, 2006)

TedTheLed said:


> OK I tried the milk first a couple times, I think I know the answer. When you put the milk in the cup first, you put in more milk than you would normally pour into the coffee..it's an unconcious move that your concious enjoys..
> 
> usually I add the milk to the coffee, and stop pouring based on the color of the coffee. When I poured the milk first, the coffee as always much lighter than I usually make it. Not "more flavorful" though (well yeah if you consider milk a flavor..) -- but certainly smoother..



Nope. It's not that. I eliminated that variable in my "experiments"--and it was the reverse situation: I always ended up with LESS creamer in the cup, and had to add more half and half at the end in order to bring the ratio to what I wanted.

I think, as mentioned, that it's not just the first bit of cream not getting scalded in the very hot black coffee, but also the more evenly mixed milk-fats when pouring the coffee INTO the creamer.

Then again, there could be a beam of x-ray radiation getting through the barrier and passing right through the place where my HEAD normally is while I work in my office. LOL. Maybe I need this lead hat tvodrd is talking about. :devil:


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## arewethereyetdad (Jun 5, 2006)

I pour the cream first, then the coffee. That way I don't have to stir. The pouring-in of the coffee over the cream creates it's own "stirring," saving me one step.


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## TedTheLed (Jun 5, 2006)

js said:


> Nope. It's not that. I eliminated that variable in my "experiments"--and it was the reverse situation: I always ended up with LESS creamer in the cup, and had to add more half and half at the end in order to bring the ratio to what I wanted. ....<snipped by TTL >



could you explain this a bit further? it's still early here and foggy outside and inside..

meanwhile I will try to determine how much milk I use on average to get the cup to the color I want as this must vary depending on the beans, the roast, the brew... and then try the experiment again. I just might have to roast up some fresh Harar for this...


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## greenlight (Jun 5, 2006)

The coffee cools slightly when it comes it contact with the cup. That makes it easier for the cream.


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## SilverFox (Jun 5, 2006)

Hello Jim,

Thanks for posting this. I don't normally take cream with my coffee, but may have to do some testing on my own.

I know that when I make an Irish Coffee, I always pour the coffee in last, but I don't think that counts...  

Tom


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## js (Jun 5, 2006)

TedTheLED,

It's pretty much exactly as I said:

I would always pour LESS half and half into the bottom of the cup than I would normally do if I poured it all in at the end. Not sure why this was, but it was the case. As a result, I would top off with half and half at the end to bring the color of the cup to exactly what I wanted. It was always a minor correction: about 10 percent more creamer or so.

So all I was saying is that it was NOT the case that I liked the cream first then coffee method just because I was accidentally geting more creamer that way. Not the case.


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## TedTheLed (Jun 5, 2006)

js,

oh I get it now. I just wasn't clear on how you knew how much you poured into the coffee in the first place (maybe you poured a fixed amount from a graduate? then used the same amount for the second cup..) if you weren't measuring out equal amounts...

then that kinda changeds the parameters doesn't it? it's no longer 'before' vs. 'after' -- it's 'before and after' vs. 'after' vs. 'before'


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## js (Jun 5, 2006)

Well,

Strictly speaking, that is correct. BUT, my last bit of top-off creamer was added to an already cooled down cup. Still, if I were to get REALLY scientific on this, I would measure out the exact amount of creamer in both cases and do a blind taste test.

Despite, what I wrote in option #2, I do *NOT* have too much time on my hands and have no desire to get scientific on this to that level.

I just was curious and tried it out and I think the whole thing is a riot so I posted about it. I really don't care too much about it. We'll leave that to SilverFox. :nana:


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## TedTheLed (Jun 5, 2006)

js, I just wanna get to the truth. if that calls for for a the use of a little science and the abandoning of false premises, falsehoods, superstitions, and wishes, then so be it..!

I now see you are no longer 'caring about it too much,' so I guess you would have to vote for 'it doesn't matter'  ?

whatsamatter, you on the decaf again? :nana: 

hang in there js we'll get the truth out sooner or later... :thumbsup:


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## dbedit (Jun 5, 2006)

I have to chime in here to put the myths to rest or wake them up one. I work for a dairy so I can tell you it depends on the type of creamer Fresh, UHT,or Non Dairy Now if it is Fresh Cream or Half and Half and I am assuming it is? At 41 F the cream will begin change its flavor due to the initial breakdown of componets that make up the milk which is 87 percent water and 13 percent milk solids as it comes from the cow. The solids portion contains 3.7 percent fat and 9 percent solids non-fat( insert long list of proteins, vitamins, ect here) As the breakdown happend it starts to provide the "cooked" taste. The quicker and higher the temp rises the more pronounced the flavor becomes. So scientifically speaking you will retain more of the flavor of the Cream if you start with the cold cream and very slowy add the hot coffee slowly bringing the temperature up. The optimium temperature for fresh dairy products is 34 to 35 degrees F they will retain more of their natural flavor and nutrients. Get your milk close to home so it stays cold and does not go above 41 degrees. In addition UV light from the store lighting will change the flavor of the milk slightly. You may have even noticed companies addressing this issue with the movement to opaque or colored milk containers in some parts of the country.

And now you all know why I drink my coffee black!


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## js (Jul 23, 2009)

Bump. Seemed appropriate.


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## tygger (Jul 23, 2009)

For those "cream first" people. Pour the cream in the cup at the start of your coffee making process. By the time the coffee is made the cream has warmed up considerably. Also, (real) maple syrup or honey tastes 1000 times better than sugar.


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## Monocrom (Jul 23, 2009)

If I could make a cup of coffee that was the perfect temp., then it wouldn't matter if it was coffee first or cream first. But I need the cream or half & half to cool down my Satan-burned-his-tongue hot cup of coffee. So, coffee first, then ice cold cream or half & half to cool it down to the perfect temp.


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## kaichu dento (Jul 23, 2009)

brightnorm said:


> Back in my non heart-healthy youth I'd sweeten a cup of black coffee, then take a refrigerated container of heavy cream and get the pouring lip as close to the coffee surface as possible and gently pour a thick film of heavy cream right across the surface of the coffee, and drink the sweet coffee right through the heavy cream which stayed relatively cool for a short while. It was heavenly!
> 
> Brightnorm


We have a cafe here at work and when I used to run the cafe I'd top my espresso off with heavy cream, being careful not to let it mix too well. Then as I drank it I would get alternating pockets of espresso or cream!


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## The 8th Man (Jul 23, 2009)

Cream or half and half first and if you use sugar (not in mine) that too, then when you pour the coffee in slowly you don't need to mix it, the coffee does it for you.


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## 2xTrinity (Jul 23, 2009)

Usually at home I try to by pretty good quality coffee, and drink it black. If I buy coffee from a store I'm not very familiar with, I'll usually pour half, taste it. If it sucks, then I will add cream and sugar, then pour the rest of the coffee (to help agitate/reudce need to stir). If it's decent quality, I'll just fill it the rest of the way and drink it black.


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## saabgoblin (Jul 23, 2009)

arewethereyetdad said:


> I pour the cream first, then the coffee. That way I don't have to stir. The pouring-in of the coffee over the cream creates it's own "stirring," saving me one step.


Plus you get to avoid using one of those useless "stirrers" or one less spoon to wash.

Just started drinking black for the most part but my tea drinking friends swear by milk first and when I have tea with them, the milk first seems to be more balanced and smoother for some reason. I will pick their brains a little further over our next tea time, usually after a few pints of Guinness.

So I would say that yes, it does matter although I have no science to back it up other than the potential placebo effect or the effects of power of suggestion.


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## BB (Jul 23, 2009)

Ok, to throw more on the issue... I don't like to drink black coffee or plain milk...

However I really like Vietnamese style coffees... Dark fine roast (of some sort--ain't a coffee guy). Sweetened condensed milk in the bottom.. Brewed coffee drips down to the bottom of glass (over ice--if iced coffee). Then stir.

I am sure the coffee officialdom is going yech right now. 

-Bill


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