# Benefits of a titanium version of an existing aluminum flashlight ?



## tpchan (May 27, 2008)

What exactly are the benefits of taking an existing aluminum flashlight design and redoing the body in Titanium? How much of a premium would a CPF'er expect to pay for a Titanium version of a flashlight vs the regular aluminum one? Is there any real benefit or is this just a status symbol thing?


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## xcel730 (May 27, 2008)

The main benefit is strength and rustproof. Normally titatium flashlight cost about 2-3 times the amount of aluminum. For instance, Jetbeam Jet-III pro's aluminum model is about $70 and they're releasing a titanium version for $200. I wouldn't say it's status symbol, it's just a matter of preference ... just like many of us don't buy polymer flashlights.


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## jzmtl (May 27, 2008)

To me a titanium is only boutique for the exclusive crowd. A little more strength, yeah, but when's the last time your aluminum light got crushed? More rust proof than aluminum? Highly doubt it, especially compare to HA coated aluminum.


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## dmdrewitt (May 27, 2008)

jzmtl said:


> To me a titanium is only boutique for the exclusive crowd. A little more strength, yeah, but when's the last time your aluminum light got crushed? More rust proof than aluminum? Highly doubt it, especially compare to HA coated aluminum.



I'm no expert, but I do like Titanium.

Aluminuium won't rust. Correct. I guess only steel will rust, but Aluminium corrodes, which Titanium does not. HAIII also chips off, or sometime does not apply proplerly during the coating process. None of these problems with Titanium.


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## jag808808 (May 27, 2008)

jzmtl said:


> To me a titanium is only boutique for the exclusive crowd. A little more strength, yeah, but when's the last time your aluminum light got crushed? More rust proof than aluminum? Highly doubt it, especially compare to HA coated aluminum.


 
jzmtl,

I disagree. I would not consider myself part of an "exclusive crowd". As much as I like Al, nothing IMHO beats the weight and feel of Ti. It is more of a preference. Like some people like the feel of different knurling on their lights. If you can afford a Surefire light, Ti is well within reach. I saved many a penny to afford what I have in my collection. I use all of my lights. I have even given away some of my lights to friends and family when the collection got out of hand. You should pick up a Ti light. It may change your life/pocket book for the best/worse. 

Aloha,

jag


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## Hodsta (May 27, 2008)

jzmtl said:


> To me a titanium is only boutique for the exclusive crowd. A little more strength, yeah, but when's the last time your aluminum light got crushed? More rust proof than aluminum? Highly doubt it, especially compare to HA coated aluminum.


 
Not sure if I would put it quite like jztml, but I think that is fair to say that with flashlights, just like most technologies, you get a diminishing return on your investment the more you add further refinements.

I personally rate and respect McGizmo lights. An AlPD-S will sell for $275ish on BST where as the Ti equivilent will sell for at least $550. Is the Ti version twice as good? I'd find that difficult to justify. Is the Ti version worth it I think so.


Ti is heavier than Al but not as heavy as steel, I prefer a certain heft to my lights but not so much that they weigh me down as steel lights do.
Scratches and gouges on bare Ti are not nearly as noticeable as on HAIII Al.
I can't see many applications where I'm likley to crush an Al light, but a Ti light will resist compression far more than any Al light.
Ti is far more resistant to corrosion if you use your light in a salt water or other corrosive envirionments.
There are probably loads more that I can't immediately think of but all in all whether the benefits are worth the cost is up to personal preference.

my £0.01


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## jag808808 (May 27, 2008)

Hodsta said:


> Not sure if I would put it quite like jztml, but I think that is fair to say that with flashlights, just like most technologies, you get a diminishing return on your investment the more you add further refinements.
> 
> I personally rate and respect McGizmo lights. An AlPD-S will sell for $275ish on BST where as the Ti equivilent will sell for at least $550. Is the Ti version twice as good? I'd find that difficult to justify. Is the Ti version worth it I think so.
> 
> ...


 
Well said Hodsta! Cheers!


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## FrogmanM (May 27, 2008)

...trying to find one the the many Pro Ti posts that Don has created for this specific question... no luck so far:shrug:

Mayo


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## xcel730 (May 27, 2008)

Titatium is essentially element proof. But the point is moot

I agree that most of us, including myself, will probably never experience a crushed or rusted aluminum flashlight.

I think many of us CPFer, we choose our lights based on preference more than tangible benefits. A flashlight made from high-impact, non-incentive, durable polymer body from a reputable manufacturer excels aluminum body in many aspects. These function over form flashlights are very useful, but not very pretty.

Titatium is like everything else, either you love it or you don't. It's definitely not for everyone, and to most, it's not worth the premium.


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## xcel730 (May 27, 2008)

You converted $0.02 to £0.01  very clever.


Hodsta said:


> my £0.01


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## Edwood (May 27, 2008)

CPF bling. And not much else. Titanium is a poor conductor of heat, so it limits the performance of a flashlight. 

You can kid yourself and think Titanium is a superior material for a flashlight, it simply is not when it comes to pure function. Aluminum is pretty corrosion resistant as well, as long as it's not in a galvanic corrosion configuration. So the superior corrosion resistance argument simply does not hold water.

Sure, titanium is stronger, but other parts will ultimately fail before, like the glass lens, perhaps the electronics and batteries. That and titanium is far heavier than aluminum. If you doubt the durability of an aluminum flashlight, check out the Ra Twisty abuse pics, if I had to take a flashlight to war, it would probably survive longer than any titanium wonder here.

That said, I love titanium. It's pretty, shiny, doesn't smell, and is preetty. 

-Ed


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## dmdrewitt (May 27, 2008)

xcel730 said:


> Titatium is essentially element proof. But the point is moot
> 
> I agree that most of us, including myself, will probably never experience a crushed or rusted aluminum flashlight.
> 
> ...



I thought we decided Aluminium doesn't rust


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## dmdrewitt (May 27, 2008)

*Does Aluminum Rust?*

Aluminum corrodes but it does not rust. Rust refers only to iron and steel corrosion. 
Aluminum is actually very prone to corrosion. However, aluminum corrosion is aluminum oxide, a very hard material that actually protects the aluminum from further corrosion. Aluminum oxide corrosion also looks a lot more like aluminum, so it isn't as easy to notice as rusted iron. 




http://www.theruststore.com/Does-Aluminum-Rust-W26C2.aspx

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rust


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## kramer5150 (May 27, 2008)

Titanium (pure) is not as good of a thermal & electrical conductor as Aluminum. On the other hand, Titanium is usually alloyed/blended with Aluminum... so I think to a small extent, it depends on the particular Ti-alloy blend. I don't think flashlights are typically "pure" Ti. (someone please correct me???)

Heres just one of many material property www pages, it lists pure Titanium towards the bottom.
http://www.engineersedge.com/properties_of_metals.htm

I for one would rather have a copper version of an Al torch than a Titanium one. IMHO some hotter running LED torches could benefit from copper bezels and body components. Some of the heatsink designs I have worked on benefited greatly from the use of machined copper as opposed to machined aluminum to cool SMT ASICS. Many ASICS have a similar thermal profile as LED emitters, they both can run warm-hot-cool-hot...etc... depending on the power consumed at the given time.

*edit* whoa... I didn't realize Solder was such a poor electrical conductor. You'd think, given its purpose and abundance of use that it would be better than that.


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## Hodsta (May 27, 2008)

Hodsta said:


> Not sure if I would put it quite like jztml, but I think that is fair to say that with flashlights, just like most technologies, you get a diminishing return on your investment the more you add further refinements.
> 
> I personally rate and respect McGizmo lights. An AlPD-S will sell for $275ish on BST where as the Ti equivilent will sell for at least $550. Is the Ti version twice as good? I'd find that difficult to justify. Is the Ti version worth it I think so.
> 
> ...


 
Sorry to quote myself but one more thing - Ti feels warm compared to Al and Steel when you are outdoors (for the same reason that it is not as conductive as Al and a poor choice for overdriven LEs). Now would I ever go into a shop and demand a "warm" flashlight and demand to pay twice as much?:thinking:


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## kramer5150 (May 27, 2008)

Hodsta said:


> Sorry to quote myself but one more thing - Ti feels warm compared to Al and Steel when you are outdoors (for the same reason that it is not as conductive as Al and a poor choice for overdriven LEs). Now would I ever go into a shop and demand a "warm" flashlight and demand to pay twice as much?:thinking:



so thats why my Ti watches feel better on my wrist.


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## xcel730 (May 27, 2008)

My bad ... I was typing crossed-eye 



dmdrewitt said:


> I thought we decided Aluminium doesn't rust


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## precisionworks (May 27, 2008)

> I don't think flashlights are typically "pure" Ti



Not a whole lot of Commercially Pure (ASTM B, Grades 1 2 3 & 4) Ti in use today. The vast majority is Alloy 6Al4V, aka 64Ti.

Aluminum is the material of choice for many high end lights (SureFire, etc.). In addition to light weight & ease of finishing, aluminum machines like butter - this translates into fast machine cycle times, tooling that lasts & lasts, and lower product cost.

Ti is more difficult to machine, and the material itself is expensive. But it makes a light that is beyond tough and pleasant to use. If you're already paying a buck and a half for a nice light, the Ti version doesn't seem that much higher:thumbsup:


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## precisionworks (May 27, 2008)

> I don't think flashlights are typically "pure" Ti



Not a whole lot of Commercially Pure (ASTM B, Grades 1 2 3 & 4) Ti in use today. The vast majority is Alloy 6Al4V, aka 64Ti.

Aluminum is the material of choice for many high end lights (SureFire, etc.). In addition to light weight & ease of finishing, aluminum machines like butter - this translates into fast machine cycle times, tooling that lasts & lasts, and lower product cost.

Ti is more difficult to machine, and the material itself is expensive. But it makes a light that is beyond tough and pleasant to use. If you're already paying a buck and a half for a nice light, the Ti version doesn't seem that much higher:thumbsup:


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## McGizmo (May 27, 2008)

Edwood said:


> ......Titanium is a poor conductor of heat, so it limits the performance of a flashlight.
> 
> .........
> 
> -Ed



I won't get into my justifications for Ti over any other material because I don't need to convince myself of what they are and I am too biased to be believed by others. Plus I don't feel like joining in on another groundhog's day event. :nana:

I quoted the above though because on the face of it, this seems like a good point but the more I consider the situation the more I question the validity of this point. The heat generated by the light has to go somewhere and anything that impedes is dissipation causes buildup and back pressure all the way back to the source if I may use illustrative terms that are not the proper terms for the physics involved. 

Ti does have much higher resistance to thermal flow than aluminum. However once the heat gets to the surface and perimeter of the light, it needs to go beyond or you have the temperature elevate. In a flashlight, this heat needs to leave either through the air or one's hand. What is the thermal resistance of the air or a hand compared to Ti? I believe it is significantly worse.

There are many things that limit the performance of a flashlight as well as tax the components within. I think it safe to state that Ti will tax a light more than Al will but as to the end performance and health of the light, I think one needs to consider many other possibly more significant factors. Is Ti inadequate in a role as a host for a LED light engine? Not to my knowledge or experience so far. Is it ideal in terms of thermal conductivity. No. Would I personally choose it over other materials with all things considered? Yes. Am I aware of any benefits in Ti? For me, most certainly. 

In regards to thermodynamics, I consider myself rather blind. I don't suggest anyone follow me. On the other hand, I chose not to follow others blindly either. :nana: In the absence of clear understanding I rely on experience and I trust my experience over mere speculation. 

I am the expert in my armchair but that doesn't qualify me for much.


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## Edwood (May 27, 2008)

McGizmo said:


> I won't get into my justifications for Ti over any other material because I don't need to convince myself of what they are and I am too biased to be believed by others. Plus I don't feel like joining in on another groundhog's day event. :nana:




No need to justify. I buy titanium flashlights because I love the material. Sure nylon makes for a great fabric, but it's not as comfortable as silk. 

-Ed


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## kramer5150 (May 27, 2008)

McGizmo said:


> I won't get into my justifications for Ti over any other material because I don't need to convince myself of what they are and I am too biased to be believed by others. Plus I don't feel like joining in on another groundhog's day event. :nana:
> 
> I quoted the above though because on the face of it, this seems like a good point but the more I consider the situation the more I question the validity of this point. The heat generated by the light has to go somewhere and anything that impedes is dissipation causes buildup and back pressure all the way back to the source if I may use illustrative terms that are not the proper terms for the physics involved.
> 
> ...



thats a DAMN good point that I forgot about. The Emissivity defines the materials ability to _emit _trapped heat, from the surface to the surrounding air. Even though copper may readily _conduct_ heat from the heat source via surface contact, it may not have the capability to _emit_ the heat to the surrounding air as efficiently as Ti.

Theres no need to argue this point, you are absolutely correct.


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## StarHalo (May 27, 2008)

I'm still holding out for an all-titanium Fenix P1D, until then I've got my trusty 2.4-ounce anodized titanium coffee mug


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## Crenshaw (May 27, 2008)

i for one vote for more stainless steel versions....

btw did you know ALOT of stuff some in titanium these days? i saw a titanium spork at LH, and i think someone at EDCforums is doing titanium toothpicks.

Crenshaw


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## jzmtl (May 27, 2008)

Crenshaw said:


> i saw a titanium spork at LH
> 
> Crenshaw



I have one! :laughing: Use it everyday too, but it was hell lot more affordable than any titanium lights ($10 I think)!


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## xcel730 (May 27, 2008)

I have several outdoor gears made with titatium ... backpacking stove, pots & pans, utensils, the cup Starhalo has but in different colors, etc. They're lighter than the steel and aluminum counterparts. But I digress.



Crenshaw said:


> i for one vote for more stainless steel versions....
> 
> btw did you know ALOT of stuff some in titanium these days? i saw a titanium spork at LH, and i think someone at EDCforums is doing titanium toothpicks.
> 
> Crenshaw


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## Crenshaw (May 27, 2008)

jzmtl said:


> I have one! :laughing: Use it everyday too, but it was hell lot more affordable than any titanium lights ($10 I think)!



i actually DID want to buy one just for kicks (and to be able to say, i use titanium utensils!)


but the 10 got very wisley used elsewhere...:laughing:

xcel730, yeah they would be, but the also cost 2-3 times more!
oo:

Crenshaw


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## xcel730 (May 27, 2008)

Crenshaw, I'm not going to argue with you there ... they are definitely more expensive. I start losing perspective over time with price ... I upgrade my gears quite often. Recently bought a new goretex paclite rain jacket ... which is twice the amount of my old goretex jacket ... just to shave 10 oz in my gears. No wonder I'm so 



Crenshaw said:


> i actually DID want to buy one just for kicks (and to be able to say, i use titanium utensils!)
> 
> 
> but the 10 got very wisley used elsewhere...:laughing:
> ...


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## kramer5150 (May 27, 2008)

The handlebar on my mountainbike is Ti. MUCH softer and more forgiving on the downhills than the OEM Aluminum bar that it came with. Probably the best $30 I ever spent on that hobby.


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## xcel730 (May 27, 2008)

:laughing: This thread has digressed to the point of everything titatium. The only titatium item I have that I don't like is my Tissot T-Touch watch. The color is dull ... but I should have known about that.

Anyway, back to the topic.


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## yaesumofo (May 27, 2008)

Problem with a copper flashlight is that it is very very soft. it is not a strong material. And if it is a HOY running flashlight the whole light will become so hot that you will not be able to hold it. Copper is a fine material for a heat sink but a poor material for a flashlight. Copper is VERY VERY expensive too.

TI is not the best material for a flashlight. It is a nice material it is strong. It is heavier than aluminum. 7075 aluminum is a great material and would do fine as a TI replacement IMHO.

Titanium is very nice material for a flashlight. It is very pretty. It will not corrode. 

I have a flashlight which is 1/2 titanium and 1/2 silver. This is a great combination.

When it comes to negatives there are a few. for one thing it doesn't move heat well. This is much less of an issue than it used to be. Emitters are more efficient and run cooler for the same (or greater) output than ever before. There are less metal finishing options for titanium. Titanium is very expensive. It also costs more to machine. Even though stories about HOW HARD it is to machine are greatly exaggerated. There are LOTS of materials which are MUCH MUCH harder than and more difficult to machine than titanium.

IMHO In the end an aluminum version of a Titanium flashlight is a perfectly fine alternative. 
I buy Don's flashlights not because they are titanium but because that is the material he makes them from and his designs are amazing. (regardless of material). I have always wished that Don would make lights from Aluminum or make Aluminum versions. The fact is that they take the same amount of work to turn into a flashlight and the Titanium lights bring a greater return for his investment. I want don to make money so that he will continue to produce cool flashlights.

Titanium is a rather special material in many ways. I own "things" made in titanium and have owned them way before I owned or there was a titanium flashlight. Things like watches and pens chains rings glasses... I even have a knee made from the stuff. 
I don't like the costs associated with titanium. I guess it is just too bad.

In the end it boils down to the same thing as with everything else in this hobby. Personal preference. If you like Titanium then it is great that that option is available. IMHO more flashlight makers should make their lights from 7075. This would bridge the gap between aluminum and titanium for some.
To each his own.
Yaesumofo






kramer5150 said:


> Titanium (pure) is not as good of a thermal & electrical conductor as Aluminum. On the other hand, Titanium is usually alloyed/blended with Aluminum... so I think to a small extent, it depends on the particular Ti-alloy blend. I don't think flashlights are typically "pure" Ti. (someone please correct me???)
> 
> Here's just one of many material property www pages, it lists pure Titanium towards the bottom.
> http://www.engineersedge.com/properties_of_metals.htm
> ...


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## jzmtl (May 27, 2008)

Crenshaw said:


> i actually DID want to buy one just for kicks (and to be able to say, i use titanium utensils!)
> 
> 
> but the 10 got very wisley used elsewhere...:laughing:
> ...



That's part of the reason I bought it, the other part is wanting to color anodize it, but I sort of screwed up by overheating it.


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## yaesumofo (May 27, 2008)

IMteresting because generally speaking TITANIUM is somewhat MORE heavy than aluminum...
Yaesumofo




xcel730 said:


> I have several outdoor gears made with titatium ... backpacking stove, pots & pans, utensils, the cup Starhalo has but in different colors, etc. They're lighter than the steel and aluminum counterparts. But I digress.


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## jzmtl (May 27, 2008)

But that's for the same volume isn't it? When it's the same strength (and whatever volume that requires), titanium is lightest.

Hmm, now I wonder if the comparison was done with mild steel. If you take hardened and spring tempered stainless steel, how would that affect the result.


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## LightJaguar (May 27, 2008)

Titanium is just overkill for a flashlight. Yes it looks nice and pretty and has the "bling, bling" thing going for it. I mean they make airplanes out of aluminum. I myself used to fly around in Hover Crafts made out of aluminum which carried tanks and other vehicles. I never saw or heard of one that fell apart because of stress. I'm also guessing that people who buy a Titinum flashlight will probably take better care of them then they would if it was an aluminum flashlight.


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## arty (May 27, 2008)

Aluminum has advantages. It transfers heat well - that is why some steel pots have aluminum bottoms. It can also be pretty tough and strong, but this depends on the alloy. 
I am happy with the strength of the aluminum frames on Rugers.
I like aluminum, brass and stainless steel for flashlights. I haven't seen one in titanium, but I don't see the price differential as worth it for me.


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## yaesumofo (May 27, 2008)

I suspect that any titanium flashlight built with potted electronics (like the ra) would be just as durable as the RA. What insures the Ra's continued operation is NOT the choice of material it is how the electronics and emitter are mounted. If the Ra were made from titanium it would be ever (much more ) durable. The fact is Titanium is more durable than aluminum. all things being equal a TI light will last longer under adverse treatment and conditions.
Yaesumofo



Edwood said:


> Sure, titanium is stronger, but other parts will ultimately fail before, like the glass lens, perhaps the electronics and batteries. That and titanium is far heavier than aluminum. If you doubt the durability of an aluminum flashlight, check out the Ra Twisty abuse pics, if I had to take a flashlight to war, it would probably survive longer than any titanium wonder here.
> 
> That said, I love titanium. It's pretty, shiny, doesn't smell, and is preetty.
> 
> -Ed


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## xcel730 (May 27, 2008)

That is true, but because of titatium's strength, they make the titatium items much thinner. A titatium cup is featherweight in comparison to an aluminum cup for the same volume and similar design.



yaesumofo said:


> IMteresting because generally speaking TITANIUM is somewhat MORE heavy than aluminum...
> Yaesumofo


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## cy (May 27, 2008)

can't disagree with the cpf bling thing for ti... 

but do disagree about functional advantages of ti

for instance... if you EDC on a lanyard... even quality hard anodize will deteriorate after prolong contact with your skin

my ti PD is a tool first, super cool object second. cleaning fireplace ashes can destroy an aluminum light... don't believe me.. try it. 

ti PD really shines in hostile environments...



Edwood said:


> CPF bling. And not much else. Titanium is a poor conductor of heat, so it limits the performance of a flashlight.
> 
> You can kid yourself and think Titanium is a superior material for a flashlight, it simply is not when it comes to pure function. Aluminum is pretty corrosion resistant as well, as long as it's not in a galvanic corrosion configuration. So the superior corrosion resistance argument simply does not hold water.
> 
> ...


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## xcel730 (May 27, 2008)

Titatium for flashlight is a matter of personal preference. All the key benefits are not that critical for flashlights. Titatium does feel good in the hand though . The bling factor defintely takes into play, if I say otherwise, I would be lying. It's similar to fine watches. A Casio G-shock is more durable, keep time better, and has more function than a luxury watch like Omega, Rolex, Cartier, Zenith, etc. Yet, the luxury watches go for a least a couple of thousands. In fact, luxury watches can get quite annoying since they gain/lose time every so often ... and if you don't wear them for a couple of days, you'll have to change the time and date again.

I guess this is like everything else ... a Kia has four-wheels and take you from point A to point B, yet people still buy BMW, Mercedes, Porsche, etc. and drive within city speed limits.


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## yaesumofo (May 27, 2008)

Actually one of the reasions Titanium has become so expensive is the sheer amount of titanium they are now using in both aricraft made by airbus as well as Boeing. All modern aircraft have much more TI than ever before. The jet motors do too.

BTW did you guys know that mecury KILLS aluminum? Yup turns it into butter. So never get Mecury on a bare aluminum flashlight (expecially freshly machined aluminum....

Remember Aluminum is VERY reactive. Titanium is not.

Yaesumofo




LightJaguar said:


> Titanium is just overkill for a flashlight. Yes it looks nice and pretty and has the "bling, bling" thing going for it. I mean they make airplanes out of aluminum. I myself used to fly around in Hover Crafts made out of aluminum which carried tanks and other vehicles. I never saw or heard of one that fell apart because of stress. I'm also guessing that people who buy a Titinum flashlight will probably take better care of them then they would if it was an aluminum flashlight.


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## Justin Case (May 28, 2008)

dmdrewitt said:


> I'm no expert, but I do like Titanium.
> 
> Aluminuium won't rust. Correct. I guess only steel will rust, but Aluminium corrodes, which Titanium does not. HAIII also chips off, or sometime does not apply proplerly during the coating process. None of these problems with Titanium.



Rust is a term typically applied to steels, but it simply refers to oxidation. Aluminum and its alloys also "rust" (oxidize). The difference is that steel oxidation is not an adherent layer, and thus tends to flake off, exposing fresh metal for more oxidation to occur. In contrast, aluminum oxidation is adherent and once the aluminum metal surface is oxidized, that is it (unless the oxide layer is breached, e.g., by a scratch). Titanium also oxidizes to form an stable, adherent oxide layer.

Corrosion is a more encompassing term that includes aqueous attack (e.g., salt water, acids, or bases), as well as oxidation (gaseous attack). Titanium really differentiates itself from aluminum alloys with respect to aqueous corrosion resistance.

The theoretical advantages of Ti are its light weight, high strength-to-density ratio, and corrosion resistance in a wide range of environments. However, it's hard to see why a flashlight would require the use of Ti vs Al in any standard application.

IMO, the main advantage of Ti vs Al is that Ti offers a better transfer function for the seller to separate you from your money.


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## Justin Case (May 28, 2008)

yaesumofo said:


> Actually one of the reasions Titanium has become so expensive is the sheer amount of titanium they are now using in both aricraft made by airbus as well as Boeing. All modern aircraft have much more TI than ever before. The jet motors do too.
> 
> BTW did you guys know that mecury KILLS aluminum? Yup turns it into butter. So never get Mecury on a bare aluminum flashlight (expecially freshly machined aluminum....
> 
> ...



Mercury + Al = liquid metal embrittlement. There are other combinations as well, such as gallium + Al.

Ti is extremely reactive at elevated temperature.


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## Justin Case (May 28, 2008)

arty said:


> Aluminum has advantages. It transfers heat well - that is why some steel pots have aluminum bottoms. It can also be pretty tough and strong, but this depends on the alloy.
> I am happy with the strength of the aluminum frames on Rugers.
> I like aluminum, brass and stainless steel for flashlights. I haven't seen one in titanium, but I don't see the price differential as worth it for me.



Unlike steel, aluminum has no fatigue limit and fatigue damage accumulates no matter how light the load you shoot.


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## Justin Case (May 28, 2008)

yaesumofo said:


> IMteresting because generally speaking TITANIUM is somewhat MORE heavy than aluminum...
> Yaesumofo



You are correct that Al alloys are less dense than Ti alloys (e.g., 2.8 g/cc for 7075 vs 4.43 g/cc for Ti-6Al-4V, respectively for two very common alloys, or 1.58X less dense than Ti-6-4). However, normalized strength is superior for the Ti alloy since mechanical properties such as tensile strength are more than 1.58X greater than that for 7075. For example, 7075-T6 tensile strength is on the order of 83 ksi. Tensile strength for as-cast Ti-6-4 is typically about 150 ksi, or a ratio of 1.81.


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## Daekar (May 28, 2008)

So basically we've figured out that unless you're pushing a lot of current through a light, then Ti is probably a sufficient heatsink, particularly if you're holding the light in your hand. 

We've also figured out (even though we all knew it already) that even though Ti is heavier than Al, its strength makes up for it, and as illustrated by the number of ultralight Ti products on the market, it's better to design for Ti and use Ti, rather than design for Al and use Ti - doing that enables you to make maximum use of its properties. 

So what does this mean? It means that it's possible to build ultra-light strong thin-walled lights, as long as the emitters are driven too hard. Would anybody like an Arc AAA-P which is even thinner? How about an ultra-light, ultra-long-running CR123 light?

Are we dealing with diminishing returns? Of course we are! Has that ever stopped us before? Heavens no! Bring on the itty bitty Ti lights!


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## souptree (May 28, 2008)

yaesumofo said:


> I buy Don's flashlights not because they are titanium but because that is the material he makes them from and his designs are amazing. (regardless of material).



+1 :thumbsup:


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## BugOutGear_USA (May 29, 2008)

precisionworks said:


> Not a whole lot of Commercially Pure (ASTM B, Grades 1 2 3 & 4) Ti in use today. The vast majority is Alloy 6Al4V, aka 64Ti.
> 
> Aluminum is the material of choice for many high end lights (SureFire, etc.). In addition to light weight & ease of finishing, aluminum machines like butter - this translates into fast machine cycle times, tooling that lasts & lasts, and lower product cost.
> 
> Ti is more difficult to machine, and the material itself is expensive. But it makes a light that is beyond tough and pleasant to use. If you're already paying a buck and a half for a nice light, the Ti version doesn't seem that much higher:thumbsup:



So commercially pure titanium flashlight might be worth more and more desirable? ...wink...wink

Regards,
Flavio
BugOutGearUSA.com


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## js (May 29, 2008)

In my opinion, Titanium is an excellent material for a flashlight.

Titanium doesn't conduct heat as well as copper or aluminum, but it still conducts heat well enough. And that small loss in conductivity actually makes it feel a lot better in the hand. I find this to be the case with my Sebenza as well. I much prefer the feel of Titanium to HA aluminum. In fact, Titanium is just about the most amazing metal for a hand tool, in my experience. Titanium is a biogenic metal. It is the only metal that can bond directly to bone. The best knee replacements, and all dental implants are made from titanium. Perhaps this has something to do with the feel of the metal, and perhaps not. All I know is that its tactile qualities are amazing.

Titanium doesn't conduct electricity as well as copper or aluminum, but it still conducts it very well--it's a metal, after all! Here's an example:

Resistance = resistivity * length / area.

The resistivity of aluminum is 26.5 nano-Ohms-meters. So a 1 mm^2 area 10 cm long rod of aluminum has a resistance of:

26.5 nOhms m * .1 m / (.001 m)^2 = 2.65 nOhm m^2 / .00001 m^2 = .00265 ohms. So just about two and a half thousandths of an ohm.

The same size rod of titanium, which has a resistivity of 390 nOhms-m, would have a resistance of .039 ohms. It's a lot more, but it's still almost negligible. At 1.5 amps of current, this means a drop of just under six one-hundreths of a volt. (And most flashlight bodies would have a much greater cross section area than a square milimeter.)

But, as with so much of life, that's definitely not all there is to it! Contact resistance of an Al to Al connection can (and probably will be) much higher than a Ti to Ti connection. We actually have an Al to Al joint in the dipole electrical bus at work (Cornell's particle accelerator) that has so much resistance that it is getting far too hot when the full three or four hundred amps run through it. The Al bus bar is definitely large enough to handle the current just fine, but because whoever put the joint together didn't get the surface prep just right, we now have a problem.

Titanium to titanium wouldn't exhibit this problem!

I haven't done the analysis of the thermal resistance situation, but I will do so in a later post.

The point of this is just that when taking the total picture into account, Titanium is a pretty good choice for a flashlight.

Long term, when I drop or bang up my Ti light, it will still look good, and will maybe even gain in character and appearance. The same can definitely NOT be said of HA (or God forbid, type II anodize) Al.

Titanium is not just bling. If cost is no object, it's a wise choice, in my opinion. But yes :devil: it does look really great.


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## GarageBoy (May 30, 2008)

Lets see, I have titanium bodied Nikon cameras, titanium watches,etc

But I like my lights aluminum. That super lightweight feeling and the grippiness of the Surefire HA is perfect. My main problem with Ti is that it scratches like nuts


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## xcel730 (May 30, 2008)

GarageBoy said:


> My main problem with Ti is that it scratches like nuts


 
What kind of nut scratches? :thinking: I'm kidding I'm kidding. I'm having a goofy day.  

I haven't had any scratches on my Ti flashlights yet, but I have a tiatnium Tissot T-Touch watch that got a big scratch on day one. It went downhill from there. Oh well, I still like the well it looks.


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## ampdude (May 30, 2008)

This is my opinion and only MY OPINION contained below:

Titanium flashlights are basically pointless. They don't transfer heat like aluminum or stainless ones and are heavier than aluminum.

Titanium more rust proof than aluminum? That's funny, when was the last time you seen aluminum rust.

Titanium is much better in roles like, knife handles and things such as this.


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## paulr (May 30, 2008)

Don made the point in another thread that Ti doesn't get surface oxidation like Al. Some Al lights depend on electrical current flowing through the body and threads which gets flaky as oxidation builds up on the threads. That doesn't happen with Ti.

I have three Ti lights now and I like the way they look and feel. Before I had any ti lights I bought a stainless steel Peak Matterhorn, beautiful light but so heavy I never carried it. Ti looks and feels similar but the weight is nowhere near as much. So I first saw Ti as a lighter alternative to stainless steel rather than a stronger or more corrosion resistant version of aluminum. And I first bought a stainless light more for style than strength.

As for what it costs, well, flashaholism just isn't financially sensible no matter what you do. Once you're up past five or six flashlights that light up basically the same way, you're no longer buying them for functionality if you ever were in the first place. So there's no point trying to compare them in terms of functionality per dollar. You missed the boat on that one several flashlights ago. It's then about recreation and enjoyment and what gives you the most satisfaction every time you use it, as an example of something that's Just Done Right. Not much different than popping the bucks into a custom pocketknife or some exotic microbrew beer. We all have bills to pay and a responsibility to save some of our income towards an uncertain future, but if we can also buy a nice flashlight now and then without having to cut into those more important necessities to afford it, then it's a healthy thing to be able to appreciate it for its own sake without having to wrap some functionality-based rationalization around it.

Heck, look at the Arc LS6 auction, where at least as of a couple days ago people were bidding the price of unit #69 way up above the others, just because of the risque connotations of its serial number. That has nothing to do with how the light functions as an illumination tool, but in this world full of hate and woe there's absolutely nothing wrong with paying a few extra dollars for something purely because you will get a much-needed chuckle out of it once in a while. Certainly, anyone demanding rationalizations for the cost of Ti should also be trying to explain the value of funny serial numbers. Think of it as a Zen exercise, in accepting finally that such explanations and rationalizations are simply not necessary.


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## xcel730 (May 30, 2008)

paulr said:


> ... it's also a healthy thing to be able to funnel a little bit into stuff that we can simply appreciate for its own sake without having to wrap some functionality-based rationalization around it.


 
Rationalizing ... interesting concept. I tried that not too long ago. I asked myself ... why spend so much money on a McGizmo Lunasol 20 when I could spend a lot less for another light with much higher lumens output. Didn't work out so well. I end up buying the LS20. I deeply regret it now. Why? Because all my other lights are getting jealous. They're not getting the same amount of fondling and usage time. Some even got abandon and went to another CPFer's home. :naughty:


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## paulr (May 30, 2008)

xcel730 said:


> Rationalizing ... interesting concept. I tried that not too long ago. I asked myself ... why spend so much money on a McGizmo Lunasol 20 when I could spend a lot less for another light with much higher lumens output. Didn't work out so well. I end up buying the LS20. I deeply regret it now. Why? Because all my other lights are getting jealous. They're not getting the same amount of fondling and usage time. Some even got abandon and went to another CPFer's home. :naughty:



Don't worry about the lumen output. I keep hearing these lumen comparisons and some CPFer's perceived necessity to get every last lumen they can per dollar that they spend on a light, and it reminds me of being told to finish my vegetables because there is starvation in Africa. Trust me, there is not a photon shortage that buying a brighter light will help solve. Nobody is stumbling around in the dark in some remote part of the world just because your LS20 has a Q flux led instead of an R flux.


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## xcel730 (May 30, 2008)

I agree. When I first started, I wanted more and more lumens till it got ridiculous. I knew the LS20 wasn't going to be as bright as my others, but I got it anyway. It's plenty bright for what I need it for. I honestly don't even know how bright it is. I'm estimating it's roughly 70 lumens. I use the low flood light most of the time anyway. If my old Inova T2 with 40 lumens was bright enough for me, the LS20 is definitely more than enough ... plus sexier.



paulr said:


> Don't worry about the lumen output. I keep hearing these lumen comparisons and some CPFer's perceived necessity to get every last lumen they can per dollar that they spend on a light, and it reminds me of being told to finish my vegetables because there is starvation in Africa. Trust me, there is not a photon shortage that buying a brighter light will help solve. Nobody is stumbling around in the dark in some remote part of the world just because your LS20 has a Q flux led instead of an R flux.


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## Justin Case (Jun 1, 2008)

js said:


> In my opinion, Titanium is an excellent material for a flashlight.
> 
> Titanium doesn't conduct heat as well as copper or aluminum, but it still conducts heat well enough. And that small loss in conductivity actually makes it feel a lot better in the hand. I find this to be the case with my Sebenza as well. I much prefer the feel of Titanium to HA aluminum. In fact, Titanium is just about the most amazing metal for a hand tool, in my experience. Titanium is a biogenic metal. It is the only metal that can bond directly to bone. The best knee replacements, and all dental implants are made from titanium. Perhaps this has something to do with the feel of the metal, and perhaps not. All I know is that its tactile qualities are amazing.
> 
> ...



IMO, this is a somewhat odd justification for Ti vs Al.

On the one hand, you minimize the issues of resistance and thermal conductivity, rightly pointing out that the real world impact is small. But on the other hand, you cite Al contact resistance as a weakness, but the example is passing hundreds of amps of current, whereas a flashlight might pass 1-2 amps. Seems like this Ti advantage is just as irrelevant in actual flashlight application as resistance and thermal conductivity.

Then you claim that Ti is not bling, but the apparent justifications for that are that Ti looks better after being dropped (which is an opinion, not a law of physics) and that if cost is not an object, then Ti is a wise choice. Those seem like "bling" justifications to me.

So it seems to me that your reasoning that Ti is a good material for a flashlight is based on an opinion on better looks and a disregard for a poor price-performance ratio.


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## cy (Jun 1, 2008)

give me a bit... but I'll post a picture of my Li14430/CR2 next to Titan and ti PD. 

Li14430/CR2 body was turned down by Larry from an ARC AA. this was EDC on a lanyard and in contact with skin for two years. you can really tell corrosion from salt on anodize vs titanium no corrosion. note it's only been 6 months for Titan vs 2 years of lanyard EDC duties. but I suspect ti will hold up fine. 

my 6 flute ti PD has been doing EDC duties clipped to my front pocket ever since release by Don. 1 year+ anyways... it's been banged around doing ruff service with lots of small wear/scratches. still looks great! 

so for me ti indeed is more than bling.... your mileage may veri.


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## McGizmo (Jun 1, 2008)

In terms of electrical conductivity, one real advantage I see of Ti over Al is the fact that Ti oxide is electrically conductive and Al oxide is not. To some extent, you have self wiping or cleaning contacts in many of these lights so the Al oxide can be removed but it does need to be removed.

Ti is low maintenance and I personally put a real premium on low and especially _no_ maintenance devices.

I see where there is now a Nitinol knife out there! Cool!! That is my kind of device!!  Let the Nitinol take the spot light and go for the bling appeal. 

For me, Ti is not bling but simply mandatory at this point. Nitinol would be bling but that wouldn't necessarily stop me. Price and being unobtanium likely would though.


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## cy (Jun 1, 2008)

ti vs HA in harsh salty environment. 

second from left, Li14430/CR2 after 2 years of EDC duties on a lanyard. right ti PD after aprox. 2 years of EDC pocket duties.


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## StarHalo (Jun 1, 2008)

What about the *sound* of titanium? So bright! Here's a 2-second wav of a pair of intramedullary nails (the erector set-looking bars they put in broken legs to bolt everything back together) being struck together:

http://members.dslextreme.com/users/starhalo/IntramedullaryNail.WAV

(For all the sights and sounds of the entire periodic table, visit here: http://www.theodoregray.com/PeriodicTable/index.html )


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