# How big is this market? (Patent Question)



## Wavelength (Feb 1, 2010)

Hi All. I've got something of a business question here, thought I'd throw it out here to see if anyone had some helpful suggestions, information, or personal experience!

So, here's the issue in a nutshell. I've developed a new flashlight thermal design that would allow you to run something like a SST-90 at full power, without having a big 2C/2D [email protected] type host, and without burning your hand (And without destroying the emitter). Think more like a somewhat oversized P60, 1x18650 host. Basically, the limitation would be how big it needs to be to hold a battery that can supply the power. It uses some exotic materials, however they should not be cost-prohibitive.

My debate is whether or not to apply for a patent for this design. I know Gene Malkoff patented his P60 design, and I expect he's done fairly well with it. However, this design would not be a drop-in, and could probably only be retrofitted to a small percentage of the hosts already out there. I.E, if you want it, you'd probably have to buy a new light made to use it, so the market would be smaller.

The concerns are that it would probably be two years before I could bring this to market, even in limited quantities, and who knows what could happen to the LED market in that time. So I'm asking to those who regularly sell flashlight products, what kind of market do you think there might be at that time? Assuming I manage to write it myself, it's ~$2300 for a patent, all-told, so I certainly don't want to get the patent and then find that LED's are now so efficient they only dissipate 10% of their energy as heat, or that there are only 10 CPFers who're interested in such a light. Ideally, I would like to make the lights myself and offer them to CPFers for several years, then possibly license the patent to a big light production company (though China would probably start copying it first...).
However if the market is there for it I would probably just continue making them myself.

So what do you all think? Does this sound like something worth trying? Obviously my heart says to release it to CPF immediately, but my wallet and my brain say to make a business of it!



And before the cries about insufficient thermal mass or some such nonsense start, let me just say that while I am relatively new to the flashlight domain and not technically an engineer by profession, I taught engineering design at a top-tier engineering university for several years before deciding to move into a different field. Several computerized thermal models have been run to confirm the viability of the design. So I'm looking for business advice, not technical reprimands!

Thanks in advance for any input!


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## Hammer Train (Feb 1, 2010)

I think that led tech will move on quite quickly over the next 2 years. However if the design can be used for future emitter releases and a patent is possible then it would probably still be worth it :twothumbs. 
There will always IMO be a trade-off between heat and brightness. If you have found a way to dissipate the heat that is revolutionary then I take my hat off to you, if it is patentable then I'm amazed and wish you all the best with it!


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## saabluster (Feb 1, 2010)

Wavelength said:


> Hi All. I've got something of a business question here, thought I'd throw it out here to see if anyone had some helpful suggestions, information, or personal experience!
> 
> So, here's the issue in a nutshell. I've developed a new flashlight thermal design that would allow you to run something like a SST-90 at full power, without having a big 2C/2D [email protected] type host, and without burning your hand (And without destroying the emitter). Think more like a somewhat oversized P60, 1x18650 host. Basically, the limitation would be how big it needs to be to hold a battery that can supply the power. It uses some exotic materials, however they should not be cost-prohibitive.
> 
> ...


You won't get any technical reprimands from me. I know it can be done because I designed just such a solution over a year ago. It has not been made public. It appears you are headed down a similar path that I have forged so I have a few suggestions. This path is exceedingly difficult. In two years all I have to show for my thousands of hours of work is some awesome product and $30K in debt. It is at the point where I am in so deep that I have to make it work or else. Fortunately this is a hobby for me so I enjoy what I do even if I don't get paid. If you are married make sure you have a *very* understanding and patient wife. 

The other very important thing to consider is that your patent is only as good as your ability to defend it. If maglight wants to they could just come in and find the silliest little detail and form a lawsuit against you even if ultimately there is no basis. Then you have to have the financial muscle to survive through that whole process _and_ run a business. And they have done it before so don't think it can't happen. It sucks I know but that is the nature of the world we live in. Then even if none of that happens you have the Chinese waiting at the door to copy your designs and sell them for a 1/5th of the price you could ever dream of. And there is absolutely nothing your patent can do about that. 

Had I known then what I know now I never would have done this despite the fact that it is indeed fun work. It's not that I want to throw water on your whole idea but you should know just what you are getting into. That's my thoughts and you can take them for what they're worth. I hope it helps. The sad fact is this world is not designed to nurture genius or reward the hard work of the workers.


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## KuKu427 (Feb 1, 2010)

Wavelength said:


> The concerns are that it would probably be two years before I could bring this to market, even in limited quantities, and who knows what could happen to the LED market in that time. So I'm asking to those who regularly sell flashlight products, what kind of market do you think there might be at that time? Assuming I manage to write it myself, it's ~$2300 for a patent, all-told, so I certainly don't want to get the patent and then find that LED's are now so efficient they only dissipate 10% of their energy as heat, or that there are only 10 CPFers who're interested in such a light. Ideally, I would like to make the lights myself and offer them to CPFers for several years, then possibly license the patent to a big light production company *(though China would probably start copying it first...).*
> However if the market is there for it I would probably just continue making them myself.





saabluster said:


> In two years all I have to show for my thousands of hours of work is some awesome product and $30K in debt. It is at the point where I am in so deep that I have to make it work or else.
> *Then even if none of that happens you have the Chinese waiting at the door to copy your designs and sell them for a 1/5th of the price you could ever dream of.* And there is absolutely nothing your patent can do about that.



The point I've highlighted is certainly a big concern. IMO I don't believe patents are the answer, just part of the solution. The ability to utilize said design and to be competitive in the flashlight market is. 
How good is your reputation? How good is your CS? How good are your ergonomics, build quality, marketing? Is your product at the right segment of the market and released at the right time? These are what I worry about more than being copied. 
Then again perhaps I am just in a position to be able to utilize the same assets the Chinese makers are...:duh2:


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## Wavelength (Feb 1, 2010)

Thanks for the input guys.

Sorry to hear you have had a hard time with this saabluster. I realize you're not just throwing water on the idea, and I appreciate the realistic presentation of the problems from someone who's been there. Certainly the fact that you wouldn't do it again if you could is something I need to consider. Maybe if neither one of us gets our idea rolling after several years we should combine forces. By our technologies combined... a light operating below room temperature!!

The combination of the fact that Chinese manufacturers might copy it no matter what and the legal issues that patenting would open up (I am definitely NOT in a financial position to deal with a lawsuit) are certainly a strong deterrent to bothering with the patent. But then I have to weigh that against the possibility of making one production run then having someone else start producing them. To be honest it is not "revolutionary", just different, outside the box a bit. I think the majority of flashlight manufacturers would be able to copy it (or at least most of it) once they've seen it. So, while I would enjoy making the lights no matter what, it would really irk me if someone else just started producing them themselves. I guess that's a largely personal decision I will have to weigh.

Definitely you make another good point as well KuKu. Quality, CS, and market positioning are definitely things I need to consider, which could deter some from going with a Chinese copy patent or no patent. But certainly if some major company with good quality decided to copy it, I could not compete. Gah! All the ways it could go awry--patent or not patent--are enough to make my brain go !


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## dom (Feb 2, 2010)

Hi mate
I think patents are only for rich people.
Should you make and sell your product here (CPF) no one here would steal your ideas
unless you made them public property.

Just have to look at the popular custom makers.

McGizmo licensed out his piston switch design to (Fenix?) and i don't know if he has a patent. Though he has much respect here - no one would blatantly copy his work.

As for patents - iv'e seen the wolves thru my work worry the ankles on patents so they can copy designs - one slipup from you would lose any money you spent on getting it.

Good luck anyway.

Cheers
Dom


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## Aircraft800 (Feb 10, 2010)

Also see "The Torch", by Mac's Customs (member cmacclel) with ideas from other members here like Mad Maxabeam, bwaites, Ginseng, ect.. now sold by Wicked Lasers.

I hope they paid him well for his design and R&D!!


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## ma_sha1 (Feb 10, 2010)

If you are under the impression that you could defend your patent, then I'd say don't do it, there's no patents that can not be bypassed. Same logic: There no such thing as "Guilty" if one can piece together a "dream team". 

I've got a few patents (Not in flashlight field) while working for companies, being there a few times (not wasting my own money).

Patents often are done for Marketing reasons, so some people will buy it thinking it must be good, as it' got a patent on it. Some times, people only file a patent & not follow-through, or even get rejected, but still enough to Wow people as they can claim "patent pending" after filing. 

For example,you mentioned Malkoff drop-in, It says "Pent Pending", it's not an approved patent, but still useful for marketing purposes. Anyone can spend some money to get to "patent pending", it just means the patent idea is filed, doesn't indicate if the idea is any good, novel or not, nether does it correlate to real chance of getting an approved patent. 

To file a patent, you'll need to disclose the entire idea, then bigger companies can easily twick it, improve upon your idea & come up with
an alternative.

If you are a big company, like Mag/Surefire etc., you use patent to defend your territory & maintain an innovative image, makes a lot of sense. 

If you are small, don't waste your money, unless you are looking at it as a Marketing tool, having patent pending or a real patent # on your product is usually more cost effective than paying for Advertising. 

It's it's a valid solid idea, better odds are there for you to sell the idea to a flashlight company after CDA. Even with CDA, they can still rip you off, so you'll have to be careful about it.

Should you do decide to pursue patent, you'll need to make your claims broad, cover power LED in a non specific manner, as by the time it comes out, 2-3 yrs, The SST-90 will be old news


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## Wavelength (Feb 10, 2010)

Thanks again guys for all the input.

I was leaning for a while towards at least filing a provisional patent application while I decide whether or not to actually patent. I started to look into prior art in terms of what had already been patented--not just what is commercially available--and I found a patent with similar claims yesterday.:mecry: My design is superior in performance and ease of manufacturing, however the prior claims are sufficiently general that to produce mine might reasonably be deemed patent infringement. I don't think I would lose an infringement lawsuit over it, but I'm just not willing to get involved in that.

I have a slight modification to my design that would avoid infringement, as well as be even easier to make and actually cool even better for a given space, however in my mind it is not as elegant as my original conception (though I think part of that is due to the recent disappointment of finding killer prior art. The idea is quickly growing on me...). Whether or not I will pursue it I've yet to decide.

So, my condolences to the flashlight community that the holder of the prior patent has not capitalized on it.


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## saabluster (Feb 10, 2010)

Wavelength said:


> Thanks again guys for all the input.
> 
> I was leaning for a while towards at least filing a provisional patent application while I decide whether or not to actually patent. I started to look into prior art in terms of what had already been patented--not just what is commercially available--and I found a patent with similar claims yesterday.:mecry: My design is superior in performance and ease of manufacturing, however the prior claims are sufficiently general that to produce mine might reasonably be deemed patent infringement. I don't think I would lose an infringement lawsuit over it, but I'm just not willing to get involved in that.
> 
> ...


Sucks doesn't it. Here's the other thing. Say you do file for a provisional - if someone else has already been working on it before you and shows evidence to that effect your patent can be challenged even if you were the first to file. And there is almost no way to know who that someone is or if there even is a someone else.


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## ma_sha1 (Feb 10, 2010)

Think positive, the guy with the prior patent wasted his money,
in turn, it saves you from wasting yours.

Would you mind sharing the patent number of the prior art?


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## John_Galt (Feb 10, 2010)

I would suggest you ask McGizmo for some tips. I believe he patented his piston drive system to Nitecore, hence the PD series.
He may also be able to offer insight into dealing with companies, and producing products.

My advice would be to seek out a high-price, well-known patent attorney, and have a specific set of questions, and some background research. 

If you do decide to file a patent, be sure to word everything vaguely, so as to allow for rapid changes in the market.


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## saabluster (Feb 10, 2010)

John_Galt said:


> I would suggest you ask McGizmo for some tips. I believe he patented his piston drive system to Nitecore, hence the PD series.
> He may also be able to offer insight into dealing with companies, and producing products.


 I seem to remember he did not patent it. The other companies asked him if they could use it however and an agreement was reached where McGizmo received royalties of some kind. I think that says a lot about the companies involved. My hats off to them.


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## Erasmus (Feb 19, 2010)

I guess your technology involves some heatpipe design. In that case I'm afraid Philips holds several patents for such a design


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## kengps (Feb 22, 2010)

The other huge problem is it can be challenged on the basis of it being "obvious" to the industry. I think just because a flashlight has never been liquid cooled doesn't mean it isn't obvious. Many things are liquid cooled. Especially electronics, motors, etc. All you'd need to do is encapsualte a flashlight (or at least the LED head) in a Glycol jacket to de-concentrate the heat to the whole (or a portion) of the body of the flashlight. Few high-performance applications are air-cooled anymore. As Flashlights get more powerful and generate more-and-more heat...It would be obvious to liquid cool, like everything else.


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## cmacclel (Feb 23, 2010)

Aircraft800 said:


> Also see "The Torch", by Mac's Customs (member cmacclel) with ideas from other members here like Mad Maxabeam, bwaites, Ginseng, ect.. now sold by Wicked Lasers.
> 
> I hope they paid him well for his design and R&D!!


 
For the record I did work with Wicked Lasers on the Torch.

Mac


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