# Quark MiNi 123 Warm vs. Cool Comparo



## applevision (Jan 1, 2010)

Hi guys,

Just got my warm/neutral Quark MiNi 123 and I'm delighted! I am here to compare it with the Quark MiNi 123 cool/regular light for your viewing pleasure.

Note: I bought and paid for these babies myself and get nothing for this review except CPF love.

Let's let the photos do the talking. All the photos (except for the picture of the emitters) were taken with a Canon Eos Rebel, locked f-stop, ISO and exposure.

First, the comparison between the emitters (warm on the left):





You can see the smaller, more ochre-colored emitter in the warm light (that's the CREE Q35A3 XP-E emitter vs. the XP-G in the cool white).


Now, let's look at pudding, here is a ceiling bounce test, first is the cool then the warm:








As you can see here, the trade off between that gorgeous warm color is the loss of some of the light--but we have to remember, this is not a direct comparison since the emitters are also different (it's not just the warm version of the XP-G which does not yet exist as of this review). 

But, there is a positive side to this trade and it is that the warm emitter is actually smaller and thus has a tighter hotspot. And so, despite the decreased output, it is actually a better thrower than the cool version!

Now let's compare some side-by-sides on low, medium then high. The lights are about 5 feet away from the ceiling and the first shot gives you orientation (warm on the left in all shots):

















Now for some subjective thoughts...
First the fit and finish are outstanding and identical to the regular MiNi 123. It's clearly the same shell with only a different emitter. FWIW, the threads seem smoother on my warm and do not seem to skip like my cool does. Also, the split ring is actually smaller by about 2mm which is kind of nice. 

As for using the lights, there are pluses and minuses. I'm not a warm "purist" but I do appreciate how nice everything looks with light closer to that of the sun's spectrum. And this light delivers! You can see in that shot above, the painting and the plants in the frame: look at how the colors come to life with the warm! It's even better in real life I would say. 

Now the downside is three-fold:
1) You are getting less light overall with the warm
2) You are geting less light for your energy consumed (less efficiency) with this older emitter
3) The tighter hotspot is awesome if you want this, but as I've gotten more sophisticated as a flashaholic, I've come to prefer more floody lights for the tasks for which I use my keychain light. YMMV, of course, but especially for photography (which is something I had in mind for this light), it will be harder with the strong spot now... Hmmm... but this can really go both ways. I do love that it can throw and I can't wait until tonight to try it outside.

Verdict: This is a [email protected]$$ little buddy, on par with the exceptional cool version in every way. The gorgeous warm, incandescent-like color is a huge boon for the warm-o-philes, and the increased throw is a nice feature, but the price paid is less overall output and a more defined spot which may be less than ideal for close, indoor work. Great job, 4sevens... you keep making them and I'll keep buying them!

Happy New Year to all!


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## Beamhead (Jan 1, 2010)

Excellent comparison.:thumbsup: I am one that prefers the cool tint.


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## tucolino (Jan 1, 2010)

thanks for the review applevision.this comparison just made my mind about ordering a mini ti 123 in warm tint.


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## davidt1 (Jan 1, 2010)

Won't buy any more multi-mode twisty lights, but have to commend you for the concise and informative review. The pictures are great. Thanks.


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## NutSAK (Jan 1, 2010)

:twothumbs Very informative. Thanks for the comparison!


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## bc5000 (Jan 1, 2010)

Debated all afternoon between the cool and warm.

Went ahead and ordered the warm and right after hitting submit I find this thread. 

Should have went with the cool. All my other lights have been cool.

Wish there was a way to change my order.


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## richardcpf (Jan 1, 2010)

bc5000 said:


> Wish there was a way to change my order.


 

Yes you can.. write to 4sevens, i believe the item wont be shipped till jan 4..


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## Henk_Lu (Jan 1, 2010)

Without having seen this thread prior to ordering the Titaniums, I overthought the whole thing and made the right decision.

As we al know by now, you should not use li-ions in the MiNis. The only way the AA gets as bright as the 123 is using li-ions however. So, I took the 123 with the XPG-R5 and the AA in neutral white and get the best of both worlds : Maximum brightness and the huge hotspot for the 123, the nice warm tint with the AA... :twothumbs

As I'm a geek, I currently have the normal 123 and AA and also both coming in neutral white. I'll give two of them away to my parents, so they'll be happy as well!


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## 1M1 (Jan 1, 2010)

Nice review.:thumbsup:

I have a Mini 123 in each version as well, though your regular appears to have a bluer beam than mine. Nice lights, either one you choose. 

Anyone know if there are any "beam diffusers" that'll work on these lights?


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## Dioni (Jan 1, 2010)

Thanks for the comparison beamshots! :thumbsup:


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## regulator (Jan 1, 2010)

Very nice comparison and it should help people decide. I like the cooler tints when they are very white for the increased output. To me, the cooler tint seems brighter even if the actual output is the same. Its a psycological thing I guess since the warmer tint reminds me of the old incandecent bulb lights that were not too bright. However, I do think the warmer tints are more pleasant to the eye outdoors and bring out colors better.


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## Flashlight Aficionado (Jan 1, 2010)

I've found cool tints work better in man-made environments. Could you do some beamshots of leafy trees to compare the warm and cool LEDs?


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## Light11 (Jan 1, 2010)

Nice comparison beamshots. :thumbsup: Thanks.


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## defloyd77 (Jan 1, 2010)

Thanks for the comparisons. I too had the conflicting decision of neutral vs cool, I swore I'd never buy a cool light again, but I loved the idea of the bigger beam on the cool, so I went with the cool. Looking at your shots, they leave me completely unsure on my decision, I do love the neutral's tint a lot, but not the beamshape and the exact opposite on the cool white. Maybe I'll win the tint lottery and not get a cool tint, I'd be happy getting something greenish over bluish.


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## applevision (Jan 1, 2010)

Thanks for all the kind words.

*Flashlight Aficionado*, I will try to get outdoor shots for you soon--it's bitterly cold here in Chicago (currently 13°F/-11°C) sadly, and I just can't do them properly until things warm up a bit.

I wanted to update one impression above--I was able to shine the lights out the window a bit and I think that the cool may well be the better thrower after all. Inside the house, the tighter beam of the warm seemed like it was a better thrower, but once I shined it on trees outside, maybe 100feet away, I was able to see that the cool MiNi was more potent at those far distances. I think that this is just a testament to the power of putting out more light, even though the emitter is larger and thus less focused.

If anyone lives in a warmer clime, perhaps they can do some outdoor shots?

Thanks guys!


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## Flashlight Aficionado (Jan 1, 2010)

applevision said:


> If anyone lives in a warmer clime, perhaps they can do some outdoor shots



Sure, just send those babies to me. It is relatively warm here. I have plenty of exposed grass and plenty of evergreen trees to do comparison shots.


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## SoCalMan (Jan 1, 2010)

Yep, the warmer tint brings out the nice "neutral" colors in your bathroom.
Nice pics.


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## Tixx (Jan 1, 2010)

applevision said:


> Thanks for all the kind words.
> 
> *Flashlight Aficionado*, I will try to get outdoor shots for you soon--it's bitterly cold here in Chicago (currently 13°F/-11°C) sadly, and I just can't do them properly until things warm up a bit.
> 
> ...



Definitely cold here! It's terrible, but the moon was like a pure white hot spot in the sky last night


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## MarkW (Jan 1, 2010)

Hmmm. 13 degrees = "Bitterly cold." I suppose this is a lot like tint preference: subjective? I'm at 3 degrees and dropping. 

Nonetheless, great indoor shots and helpful comments, I've been hoping someone would make this comparison. THANKS!


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## Phos4 (Jan 2, 2010)

heh heh 

13 degrees is nice and toasty compared to my time up in the arctic

we could roast marshmellows in that

down here it's 80F right now and i got the air conditering on

ha ha!

hey: nice pictures though and keep up the good work 

-phos4


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## kaichu dento (Jan 2, 2010)

defloyd77 said:


> Thanks for the comparisons. I too had the conflicting decision of neutral vs cool, I swore I'd never buy a cool light again, but I loved the idea of the bigger beam on the cool, so I went with the cool. Looking at your shots, they leave me completely unsure on my decision, I do love the neutral's tint a lot, but not the beamshape and the exact opposite on the cool white. Maybe I'll win the tint lottery and not get a cool tint, I'd be happy getting something greenish over bluish.


I think this has caught a lot of us unawares and it brings to light another consideration that until recently would not have been an issue; not only choosing for tint now, or even beam shape, but hot spot size!

At least if we choose the cool MiNi for it's beam then we are not left with a cold, hard blue of yesterday, but a gentle bluish tint that is impossible to hate, even if we'd prefer a warmer tint. Although I'm still waiting for my neutral tints, I already love the cool MiNi AA!


Flashlight Aficionado said:


> I've found cool tints work better in man-made environments.


Again this is up to the individual, as I have a preference for the color rendering of neutral tints in all environments, proving once again how subjective preferences can be.


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## Burgess (Jan 2, 2010)

to applevision --


Thank you for your time, effort, and dedication in writing this Review.

:goodjob::kewlpics::thanks:



BTW . . . .


Everytime i quickly glance at your Avatar image, i see a Moose !


Kinda' like Bullwinkle. 


Anybody ELSE notice it ? 

Or am i the only crazy one here ?

:tinfoil:
_


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## applevision (Jan 2, 2010)

kaichu dento said:


> I think this has caught a lot of us unawares and it brings to light another consideration that until recently would not have been an issue; not only choosing for tint now, or even beam shape, but hot spot size!
> 
> At least if we choose the cool MiNi for it's beam then we are not left with a cold, hard blue of yesterday, but a gentle bluish tint that is impossible to hate, even if we'd prefer a warmer tint. Although I'm still waiting for my neutral tints, I already love the cool MiNi AA!


*Kaichu*, I couldn't agree more! Very difficult these days, and as we become both more sophisticated and more spoiled by what is available, these kinds of decisions will come into play more and more... what I can say is that after playing with both all day and night... I ended up putting the original cool MiNi right back on my keychain and am going to be gifting one of the warms and keeping the other as part of the collection... I just couldn't give up the power, the flood, the large hotspot, and the fact that it's cooler but hardly blue--almost a bit of creamy white to my eye...



Burgess said:


> to applevision --
> Thank you for your time, effort, and dedication in writing this Review.
> BTW . . . .
> Everytime i quickly glance at your Avatar image, i see a Moose !
> ...


Hee hee! *Burgess*, I can say with 100% certainty that you are NOT the only crazy one here, but I hadn't noticed that before--until you said it. Now I too see the moose! Of note, it's actually a picture of my TiFli + my St. Benedict medal on my necklace (which by the way is the one from CountyComm--a rubber necklace that is rugged and cool, for those who might be interested).


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## kaichu dento (Jan 2, 2010)

applevision said:


> *Kaichu*, I couldn't agree more! Very difficult these days, and as we become both more sophisticated and more spoiled by what is available, these kinds of decisions will come into play more and more... what I can say is that after playing with both all day and night... I ended up putting the original cool MiNi right back on my keychain and am going to be gifting one of the warms and keeping the other as part of the collection... I just couldn't give up the power, the flood, the large hotspot, and the fact that it's cooler but hardly blue--almost a bit of creamy white to my eye...


I can't wait to see my neutral tints, and after ordering the titanium ones too I now have five of them on the way! I wish they could have the exact beam I'm seeing with my cool version, but if they are at least wider than the EZAA then I'll still probably be happy! 

It is a nice time to be a flashaholic!


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## reeso (Jan 2, 2010)

If the XP-G Quark Mini 123 is supposedly 189 OTF lumens does anyone know what the output of the warm version might be?


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## get-lit (Jan 2, 2010)

Tints also vary so much from light to light among the same model. My first Mini looks almost pure white, while the second was very green. I also have 3 P1D's, two of them are very similar while one is distinctly different with some magenta in it. I really like the color and it's my favorite light. I took the liberty of adding magenta to your photo to show how my favorite light renders color, followed by your Mini cool and warm lights...

















For me it'a a toss-up which I prefer among the cool and the warm. They both seem just a bit off balance by lacking in magenta, with the cool leaning on the blue/green end, and the warm on the yellow/orange end. I prefer something *not* in between, but something that has more magenta like my one-out-of-three P1Ds. I really love the way it renders skin tones. Lately I've found that to be the true test because it's what I'm most sensitive to perceiving color in. I don't know how to describe the color because it's not what people know as a "warm" color, yet to me it does have a somewhat warm feel to it. It's a different kind of warm.

By the way applevision, the cool tint lights are much like the sun's color temperature, not the warm tint lights. The sun is so bright that it appears to us to be a warmer tint.

Very nice bathroom by the way!


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## kaichu dento (Jan 2, 2010)

get-lit said:


> Tints also vary so much from light to light among the same model. My first Mini looks almost pure white, while the second was very green. I also have 3 P1D's, two of them are very similar while one is distinctly different with some magenta in it. I really like the color and it's my favorite light. I took the liberty of adding magenta to your photo to show how my favorite light renders color, followed by your Mini cool and warm lights...
> 
> I prefer something *not* in between, but something that has more magenta like my one-out-of-three P1Ds. I really love the way it renders skin tones. Lately I've found that to be the true test because it's what I'm most sensitive to perceiving color in. I don't know how to describe the color because it's not what people know as a "warm" color, yet to me it does have a somewhat warm feel to it. It's a different kind of warm.


I also have a Fenix with an RB80 in it that is a bit on the magenta side and have always loved that one!

My best test for a while now has been shining the light on my hand and seeing what it does for skin tones and it's pretty sobering what some of the coolest of tints do, although the lighter cool tints seem to give a nice moonlight appearance. Still the warmer tints tend to suggest life more so than the cooler ones!


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## Swedpat (Jan 2, 2010)

Thanks for the pictures applevision! 
Always nice to see tint comparisons.

Regards, Patric


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## Haz (Jan 2, 2010)

It's nice to see the comparisons shots you have made. It's a tough decision to make if you are buying one only. I wished they have the brighter warm leds


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## BillP (Jan 2, 2010)

kaichu dento said:


> I also have a Fenix with an RB80 in it that is a bit on the magenta side and have always loved that one!
> 
> My best test for a while now has been shining the light on my hand and seeing what it does for skin tones and it's pretty sobering what some of the coolest of tints do, although the lighter cool tints seem to give a nice moonlight appearance. Still the warmer tints tend to suggest life more so than the cooler ones!



I think I saw an article a while back that suggested that moonlight is the same color as sunlight, there's just less of it. Folks were taking photos with very long exposure times, (at night) and the results looked just like daylight. Pretty cool.


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## ninjaboigt (Jan 2, 2010)

i want a bathroom like that...


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## Sgt. LED (Jan 2, 2010)

Geez I am SO glad I went warm.
The blue made me cringe in that one side-by-side pic!


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## kaichu dento (Jan 2, 2010)

Sgt. LED said:


> Geez I am SO glad I went warm.
> The blue made me cringe in that one side-by-side pic!


Sarge, I think you know I'm a warm/neutral tint fan but I think the comparison shots may be a little misleading. I haven't received my neutrals yet, but I have been really liking the MiNi AA that I got last week and have been reaching for it instead of my EZAAw due to the lower low and the much better beam pattern.

At some point you should try to get a hold of one and see how nice they actually are!


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## kaichu dento (Jan 2, 2010)

BillP said:


> I think I saw an article a while back that suggested that moonlight is the same color as sunlight, there's just less of it. Folks were taking photos with very long exposure times, (at night) and the results looked just like daylight. Pretty cool.


I've heard that said before and it's pretty interesting considering what our perceptions are. 

I'd really love to have a light that changed tint in much the same manner as we perceive the changes between direct sunlight and direct moonlight.


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## Zendude (Jan 2, 2010)

Sgt. LED said:


> Geez I am SO glad I went warm.
> The blue made me cringe in that one side-by-side pic!


 

I'm just the opposite. Looking at the white tub and wall with the warm tint changed it to a brown/orange Navajo white. 

I do see a slight green cast with the XP-G but I like it better than the incan wannabe. Just my pref.

I'd love to see a spectral analysis of these emitters.

Thanks apple! I now know which emitter to get.

P.S. The doctored pic does look pretty sweet. Happy New Year!:twothumbs

OT: I'd be surprised if the moon wasn't absorbing some wavelenghts comprising sunlight thereby changing the tint of the light reflected by the moon towards us.


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## Lightcrazycanuck (Jan 2, 2010)

Light11 said:


> Nice comparison beamshots. :thumbsup: Thanks.


 
+1 :thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:


lovecpf


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## defloyd77 (Jan 2, 2010)

Sgt. LED said:


> Geez I am SO glad I went warm.
> The blue made me cringe in that one side-by-side pic!



I once said that I would never buy a non neutral light after buying my QAA neutac and my neutral P100A2, but when I ordered my MiNi AA I decided I'd prefer the larger emitter/beam of the XP-G and I am 100 percent happy I did, I totally won the 'G lottery, it's very white with just a slight hint of green, VERY nice, but especially when seeing the smaller beam made by the XP-E, I'm totally glad I didn't get the neutral.


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## Phos4 (Jan 2, 2010)

just got back from a buddy visitin from the states casa

he got em both (among other lights!) and i got to play with them both

for anyone not sure--the cool one wins by a mile

i don't think it is a competitions at all!

hear me! 

its a cute lite in warm but not nearly the same thing

shame

we need a xpg warm soon

that one id buy right away!

i will be gettin 2 cools next week hopefully


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## applevision (Jan 3, 2010)

Phos4 said:


> just got back from a buddy visitin from the states casa
> 
> he got em both (among other lights!) and i got to play with them both
> 
> ...



Hey *Phos4*, it's a good point in this case--they are pretty different lights. But the form factor is so neat and the warm is still a pretty darn bright and potent little light! I feel like just a few _months_ ago, the warm would have been a champion in its own right! It's funny how fast things change...

From reading another thread, it sounds like the XP-G warm should be coming soon. I wonder if 4sevens will update the warm MiNis then?

That would be amazing! And I promise to get it and do a new updated comparo then! 

*get-lit*, your light's output looks AMAZING, what I'd call perfect. That's exactly what I'm after. Not too warm like an incand, but not too cool such that the colors are muted... Wow, what a tint that is!


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## B0wz3r (Jan 4, 2010)

kaichu dento said:


> I've heard that said before and it's pretty interesting considering what our perceptions are.
> 
> I'd really love to have a light that changed tint in much the same manner as we perceive the changes between direct sunlight and direct moonlight.



With respect to tint differences and light levels, once you get to a low enough level, there is no such thing as tint. This is because at very low light levels we shift from what is called photopic vision where we're seeing only with cone (color) receptors in the retina, to scotopic vision where we're only seeing with the rod receptors. 

This is why backyard astronomers such as my wife (and the military) have always used deep red lights to preserve night vision; the wavelength they emit is out of the range of wavelengths that rods can see so they don't adapt to the light. That way we can use a relatively bright red light to read star charts by, etc. but when you turn the light off your receptors are still dark adapted.

Zendude: the moon surface may very well absorb some wavelengths and not others, but it doesn't matter... we see moonlight as uncolored because when properly dark adapted, the visual system is running in scotopic mode, not photopic, and we don't see any color that might be present as it's too weak for the cones to detect.

As an aside, ever since I got my EZAAw for my keychain, as I use it more and more, I find myself coming to prefer its tint more and more over cool lights. I guess I'm now one of the 'gang of neutrals'. :naughty:


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## Zendude (Jan 4, 2010)

^ Thanks for the info!lovecpf

Any day you learn something new is a good day(which for me is a lot).


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## get-lit (Jan 4, 2010)

B0wz3r said:


> With respect to tint differences and light levels, once you get to a low enough level, there is no such thing as tint. This is because at very low light levels we shift from what is called photopic vision where we're seeing only with cone (color) receptors in the retina, to scotopic vision where we're only seeing with the rod receptors.
> 
> This is why backyard astronomers such as my wife (and the military) have always used deep red lights to preserve night vision; the wavelength they emit is out of the range of wavelengths that rods can see so they don't adapt to the light. That way we can use a relatively bright red light to read star charts by, etc. but when you turn the light off your receptors are still dark adapted.
> 
> ...


 
Excellent post! You may be interested in my scope calculation page at http://scopecalc.com/ where I applied a lot of research regarding how our vision and our perception affect scope performance. It's for low-light rifle scopes, but the calculations are based upon astronomy scopes. It includes a lot of interesting research articles as well. It's amazing how much "technology" is with our own eyes, and the ability of our minds to simplify the infinite amounts of light levels to something more comprehendable to us.

Photopic cones are most sensitive to red/yellow, and scotopic rods are most sensitive to blue/green and are only peripherally located outside the center of vision. The choice of tint under low light is a matter of intended use. Due to Purkinje Shift, low amounts of red light activate the photopic cones in the center of vision without de-sensitizing the outer scotopic rods to retain dark-adapted peripheral vision.

So under low light, if the goal is to maximize the amount of light we can use to illuminate only what we are directly looking at without affecting dark-adapted peripheral vision, red is the color of choice. Red is able to better illuminate only what we are directly looking at without affecting the surrounding evironment.

On the other hand, if the goal is to get the most efficient use of light from the battery in low mode, for instance a ceiling bounce on the night stand, then the blue/green tint is more effective because it assists scotopic night vision by better illuminating the surrounding environment in a color that our scotopic rods are more sensitive to.


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## get-lit (Jan 4, 2010)

applevision said:


> *get-lit*, your light's output looks AMAZING, what I'd call perfect. That's exactly what I'm after. Not too warm like an incand, but not too cool such that the colors are muted... Wow, what a tint that is!


 
I must have come across this one by rare luck because it is the only one of three P1Ds I have which have this tint. The other two are typical.

Also, there is a strange unexpected affect with this particular color; objects seem to have their own unique glow rather than being shined on by a light. I don't know how to describe it, but that it's like the objects are creating their own light rather than reflecting it. It's kind of a mesmerizing affect when I do a ceiling bounce. I think that because it's so close to a pure white to me that the colors of objects are more distinctly different from one another, rather than all hinted a shade of green or yellow etc. For example, look at my edited photo and compare it to the other two photos. Look at an object, like the towel. See how only in that edited photo, the color of the towel is distinctly different from the basin and tile under it. All three objects in just that spot have their own unique color. They are not "color-blended" with a tint of orange or green. It makes a HUGE difference for me.

I like the color on this one so much, I go through a lot of batteries


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## jorn (Jan 4, 2010)

BillP said:


> I think I saw an article a while back that suggested that moonlight is the same color as sunlight, there's just less of it. Folks were taking photos with very long exposure times, (at night) and the results looked just like daylight. Pretty cool.



Do you mean the white sunlight during the day or the ultra redish light right before the sun sets? 
I think the colors have something to do with the angle the light has to pass trough our atmosphere. I'm only guessing, but in my mind that theory sounds plausible. Sometimes my mind is rubbish so.. anyone knows?.:laughing:


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## get-lit (Jan 4, 2010)

jorn said:


> Do you mean the white sunlight during the day or the ultra redish light right before the sun sets?
> I think the colors have something to do with the angle the light has to pass trough our atmosphere. I'm only guessing, but in my mind that theory sounds plausible. Sometimes my mind is rubbish so.. anyone knows?.:laughing:


 
Look at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Color_Temperature
You will see that daylight color temperature is much bluer at 5,500-6,500K than an incandescent bulb at 2,700-3,300K. But it's common for people to interpret incandescent color as more "sun" like than a 6,000K LED, even while it isn't even nearly as close. AFAIK the only thing different is the insane difference in brightness, so that's really the only variable remaining that could explain why our perception of the colors differs from the reality of the colors. It's definitely an interpretive thing, maybe along the lines of the Purkinje Shift of our photopic/scotopic vision under the huge brightness difference.


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## DanTSX (Jan 4, 2010)

I can report that my Wife's cool tint Mini123 is more of a warmish green than anything else. Amazing light. I think I'm going to have to get a warm 123 for myself.:thumbsup:


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## jorn (Jan 4, 2010)

From : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rayleigh_scattering
"The reddening of sunlight is intensified when the sun is near the horizon, because the volume of air through which sunlight must pass is significantly greater than when the sun is high in the sky. Accordingly, the gradient from a red-yellow sun to the blue sky is considerably wider at sunrise and sunset."


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## burntoshine (Jan 4, 2010)

from what i understand: sunlight is white, but our atmosphere filters out some of the blue spectrum. our eyes are adjusted to see in the earth's sunlight which is more yellowish compared to pure white. 

i think that's why cool white LEDs look weird to me; very blue and unnatural looking.


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## get-lit (Jan 5, 2010)

5500K-6500K daylight color temp is the color temp that reaches us at noon. When filtered through the horizon it's reduced to 5000K. They are both a far cry from incandescent 2700K-3300K. If they appear they same, there is a difference in perception, because they are far from the same. The cool LEDs on the other hand have around the same color temp as the sun upon us at noon, even though we perceive them as very different. It's just a matter of perception.

Under a lot of cloud and atmospheric conditions the sun does become much redder than the typical 5000K. What I'm saying is that people perceive incandescent as the same as the daylight sun upon them, and they perceive cool LEDs as a much cooler color temperature as the daylight sun upon them, and both of these perceptions are opposite from reality.

What I think is happening is that, although the sun's daylight color temperature upon us is a cool 5500K-6500K, when seeing things under such intensity compared to the same color but much lower intensity cool LEDs, we perceive the sun as a much warmer color because under higher intensities we are more sensitive to reds/oranges than blues/greens. As the intensity increases, our perception has a purging or filtering effect upon the blues/greens. It's either due to how our photopic cones respond to increasing light intensities, or it's due to something further down the line like how our minds interpret such intensities.

I bet if you were to shine the hot spots of a bunch of cool LED lights on the same target point to match the intensity of the sun, it would appear warmer than just one cool LED light upon the target point.


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## applevision (Jan 5, 2010)

get-lit said:


> 5500K-6500K daylight color temp is the color temp that reaches us at noon. When filtered through the horizon it's reduced to 5000K. They are both a far cry from incandescent 2700K-3300K. If they appear they same, there is a difference in perception, because they are far from the same. The cool LEDs on the other hand have around the same color temp as the sun upon us at noon, even though we perceive them as very different. It's just a matter of perception.
> 
> Under a lot of cloud and atmospheric conditions the sun does become much redder than the typical 5000K. What I'm saying is that people perceive incandescent as the same as the daylight sun upon them, and they perceive cool LEDs as a much cooler color temperature as the daylight sun upon them, and both of these perceptions are opposite from reality.
> 
> ...



Very interesting indeed!

I wonder if it's been done: reflect some sunlight into a patch of shadow with a mirror and then compare this to a flashlight! Hmm... I think I can do this if we get some sun here in Chicago. Wouldn't that be neat--a beamshot of the sun!


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## awid (Jan 5, 2010)

get-lit said:


> 5500K-6500K daylight color temp is the color temp that reaches us at noon. When filtered through the horizon it's reduced to 5000K. They are both a far cry from incandescent 2700K-3300K. If they appear they same, there is a difference in perception, because they are far from the same. The cool LEDs on the other hand have around the same color temp as the sun upon us at noon, even though we perceive them as very different. It's just a matter of perception.
> 
> Under a lot of cloud and atmospheric conditions the sun does become much redder than the typical 5000K. What I'm saying is that people perceive incandescent as the same as the daylight sun upon them, and they perceive cool LEDs as a much cooler color temperature as the daylight sun upon them, and both of these perceptions are opposite from reality.
> 
> ...



Good post. It's also evident when setting the white balance of a camera for different light sources. The daylight setting in a room lit by an incandescent will be far far too amber. However daylight combind with the natural sunlight results in a neutral result. Same with using the tungsten setting outside in natural sunlight, far far too blue.


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## kaichu dento (Jan 6, 2010)

B0wz3r said:


> With respect to tint differences and light levels, once you get to a low enough level, there is no such thing as tint. This is because at very low light levels we shift from what is called photopic vision where we're seeing only with cone (color) receptors in the retina, to scotopic vision where we're only seeing with the rod receptors.
> 
> This is why backyard astronomers such as my wife (and the military) have always used deep red lights to preserve night vision; the wavelength they emit is out of the range of wavelengths that rods can see so they don't adapt to the light. That way we can use a relatively bright red light to read star charts by, etc. but when you turn the light off your receptors are still dark adapted.
> 
> ...


This kind of stuff makes my head swim, but it also made me do a lot of thinking the last few days!

For what it's worth I just started carrying one of my cool white tint lights again for the first time in months, and although I am an avowed warm/neutral fan, I still love the cool white (just don't go to blue!), especially in the snow!


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## goldenlight (Jan 11, 2010)

*Do the Mini Quarks have the 'cool white' output?*

With so many changes in the Cree LED numbering, I wanted to check if the Mini AA and Mini 123 Quarks have the 'cool white' tint to them.

I did a search on Quark Mini, but every thread with the work Quark in it came up, and I could not find mention (it may be there, and I may have missed it) of the tint in the Mini Quark threads.

I happen to very, very fond of the 'cool white' tint, and if the Mini Quarks have this output, I may have to break down and buy one....probably one of each...

Adding to my confusion are the Quarks with 'warm white', and 'neutral white'. 

Warm white I understand: they look like an incandescent flashlight. I remember seeing a picture. I can understand it's appeal, but it's not for me.

Neutral white I frankly do not understand, unless it is the long sought after, nearly pure white light that has, to my rather limited knowledge, long eluded LED emitter manufacturers.

I actually like the 'cool white' tint, which has some blue in it. I'm fairly colorblind, so it looks very, very white to me, and of course, there is none of the dreaded green tint which has plagued even very expensive LED flashlights for so many years.

Thanks for your help!


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## Quension (Jan 11, 2010)

*Re: Do the Mini Quarks have the 'cool white' output?*

All of the 4sevens lights are classified "cool white", unless they specifically say otherwise in the name of the model on their site. The MiNis are available in both standard cool white and "neutral white".

"Neutral white" is closer to standard daylight, without being very yellow like incandescents.

The ideal pure white hasn't been obtained yet; the tints just classify where the largest areas of color are.

You mentioned greenish tints, and while I don't have enough experience to actually answer your question, I'll just note that the standard (cool white) MiNis are using the latest Cree XP-G R5s, and since these LEDs are on the bleeding edge they have a bit more variation in tint than people like. Some have complained about their particular copy being greenish, while others have apparently received the whitest LED they've ever seen. I get the impression that even the "greenish" ones don't compare to the truly awful green of old, but as I said, not enough experience to know.

I'm sure others will answer later; hope this helps for now.


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## Henk_Lu (Jan 11, 2010)

*Re: Do the Mini Quarks have the 'cool white' output?*

As there still exists no neutral-white XP-G, today it is still secure to say that each light sporting an XP-G LED is a cool white.

I don't know a neutral-white light where this isn't specified. Either the maufacturer uses the words "neutral white" or "warm tint" or they specify the emitter, which normally is a Q3/Q4 in 5A, 5B, 5A3 or 4C tint.

As for teh greenish tint, I have now about 10 XP-G lights and they all can be classified as whites. There's one of them (a Quakr Titanium AA) who is a tick on the greenish side, but compared to older LEDs with a greenish tint it looks as pure white. The tint lottery seems to be over with XP-G and instead you have a greenish lottery...


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## thedeske (Jan 11, 2010)

*Re: Do the Mini Quarks have the 'cool white' output?*



Quension said:


> Some have complained about their particular copy being greenish, while others have apparently received the whitest LED they've ever seen. I get the impression that even the "greenish" ones don't compare to the truly awful green of old, but as I said, not enough experience to know.
> 
> I'm sure others will answer later; hope this helps for now.



I ordered before knowing there were 2 tints (mini123) and received a greenish tint. It is not dramatically green, but a subtle tint.
I get the impression there are no 'Cool White' tints available in the mini series, or at least none that are more into the blue spectrum.


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## Flying Turtle (Jan 11, 2010)

*Re: Do the Mini Quarks have the 'cool white' output?*

Compared to a few other lights I know my MiNi 123 would be at the warm end of "cool white". Just a slight hint of green against a pure white background. One other I've seen was the same.

Geoff


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## jblackwood (Jan 11, 2010)

*Re: Do the Mini Quarks have the 'cool white' output?*



Quension said:


> I get the impression that even the "greenish" ones don't compare to the truly awful green of old, but as I said, not enough experience to know.



Allow me to lend a voice of experience here. I guess it depends how far back the phrase "of old" is meant to connote. In my case, if you'll accept one year ago as meaning "of old," my Nitecore D10, Q5 LED, has the worst greenish tint I've ever seen, until I got my R5 Quark AA. It's worse.


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## NutSAK (Jan 11, 2010)

*Re: Do the Mini Quarks have the 'cool white' output?*



jblackwood said:


> Allow me to lend a voice of experience here. I guess it depends how far back the phrase "of old" is meant to connote. In my case, if you'll accept one year ago as meaning "of old," my Nitecore D10, Q5 LED, has the worst greenish tint I've ever seen, until I got my R5 Quark AA. It's worse.




I would assume "of old" here would mean the nasty green of the early Luxeons but I've been around here a while, so I suppose the term "of old" is relative. Those were much greener than any green tint variations I've seen in the past couple of years.


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## yellow (Jan 11, 2010)

THAT was green:





Fenix L2T vs. homebuilt Lux III,
showing both "ends" of the led spectrum at that time
and showing difference of reflector vs. optic at same opening angle and same power of led

today even "bad" emitters are much better


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## recDNA (Jan 11, 2010)

*Re: Do the Mini Quarks have the 'cool white' output?*

More green than white IMO




goldenlight said:


> With so many changes in the Cree LED numbering, I wanted to check if the Mini AA and Mini 123 Quarks have the 'cool white' tint to them.
> 
> I did a search on Quark Mini, but every thread with the work Quark in it came up, and I could not find mention (it may be there, and I may have missed it) of the tint in the Mini Quark threads.
> 
> ...


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## Beamhead (Jan 11, 2010)

*Re: Do the Mini Quarks have the 'cool white' output?*

Of the 4 MiNi 123's I have, one is cool white, one cool/warm, the other 2 are warm/green. By warm/green I don't mean offensive green.


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## goldenlight (Jan 12, 2010)

*Re: Do the Mini Quarks have the 'cool white' output?*



Beamhead said:


> Of the 4 MiNi 123's I have, one is cool white, one cool/warm, the other 2 are warm/green. By warm/green I don't mean offensive green.



.....I don't suppose you'd be interested in selling the one with the Mini 123 with the cool white tint? :candle:


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## mr.snakeman (Jan 12, 2010)

*Re: Do the Mini Quarks have the 'cool white' output?*

Both my R5 Q MiNis (123 and AA) have a decideably green tint. Am now waiting for the same two in Ti and am hoping that the tint on them will be the same as my regular R5 Ti Quark 123 - a nice almost pure white tint .


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## vizlor (Jan 12, 2010)

*Re: Do the Mini Quarks have the 'cool white' output?*

Having tested a couple of MiNi's (cool white) I can say that they have a greenish tint, but it's only really noticible when compared to another light which has a whiter tint. It's nothing to worry about really, there are variations in tint but even the greenish ones aren't green enough to bother you (probably). The LED's are basicly a lottery, but with the MiNi's, even if you lose the lottery you win.


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## ping-anser (Jan 12, 2010)

*Re: Do the Mini Quarks have the 'cool white' output?*



vizlor said:


> Having tested a couple of MiNi's (cool white) I can say that they have a greenish tint, but it's only really noticible when compared to another light which has a whiter tint. It's nothing to worry about really, there are variations in tint but even the greenish ones aren't green enough to bother you (probably). The LED's are basicly a lottery, but with the MiNi's, even if you lose the lottery you win.




Not so sure about that. I would say I lost the lottery. Mine is a sick looking green.


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## SoCalMan (Jan 12, 2010)

*Re: Do the Mini Quarks have the 'cool white' output?*

Compared to my Quark 123x2 Turbo, my MiNi AA is on the warm side of cool...just about perfect.


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## vizlor (Jan 12, 2010)

*Re: Do the Mini Quarks have the 'cool white' output?*

Sorry to hear that, you could probably get it returned though.



ping-anser said:


> Not so sure about that. I would say I lost the lottery. Mine is a sick looking green.


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## skyfire (Jan 12, 2010)

*Re: Do the Mini Quarks have the 'cool white' output?*

i bought my mom a quark mini AA and its greenish.


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## mr.snakeman (Jan 12, 2010)

*Re: Do the Mini Quarks have the 'cool white' output?*



vizlor said:


> Sorry to hear that, you could probably get it returned though.


Received my Quark MiNis a few hours ago and I have lost the tint challange again :sigh::sigh::sigh:. Both are as green as my alu MiNis :thumbsdow:sigh:
See post #12.


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## gbelleh (Jan 12, 2010)

*Re: Do the Mini Quarks have the 'cool white' output?*

My Mini 123 also has a greenish tint. But I don't mind a little bit of green (I can't stand a lot of blue).


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## recDNA (Jan 12, 2010)

*Re: Do the Mini Quarks have the 'cool white' output?*



gbelleh said:


> My Mini 123 also has a greenish tint. But I don't mind a little bit of green (I can't stand a lot of blue).


 

I think they're ALL green. Just some folks perceive color differently or refer to sickly yellowish-green as "warm". If I thought there were a chance of getting a white or bluish white one I;d return Quark after Quark trying to get a good one. I just don't believe they're out there.

Do you think 4-7's gets the green ones for a bargain price?


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## gbelleh (Jan 12, 2010)

*Re: Do the Mini Quarks have the 'cool white' output?*

Some who have multiple QMinis have stated definite differences in tint with some samples close to pure white, and others more green tinted.

Here's an idea to see how much of this is personal interpretation:

Pass one of these flashlights around by mail to several different CPF members. Everyone could note their opinion of the tint color. After all participants have evaluated the light, everyone would post their notes in one thread at the same time.


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## applevision (Jan 13, 2010)

Can anyone add warm vs. cool photos of the MiNi AA?

I could then change the thread title to reflect it too!

Thanks!


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## Outdoors Fanatic (Jan 13, 2010)

Is the Mini123 "Warm" just warm-tinted or High CRI as well? This is the crucial question.

Thanks in advance.


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## jorn (Jan 13, 2010)

Outdoors Fanatic said:


> Is the Mini123 "Warm" just warm-tinted or High CRI as well? This is the crucial question.
> 
> Thanks in advance.


My mini aa neutral is..well neutral, with a slight green tint. I wouldn't call it warm. My m30w is warm. I dont think its high CRI. Some of the greenish tint disappear when i use aw 14500.

Edit: I forgot to mention that the green is only noticeable when shining at a withe wall, and i don't notice it at all in real use. I love it:twothumbs (I was in a hurry)


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## Tixx (Jan 13, 2010)

applevision said:


> Very interesting indeed!
> 
> I wonder if it's been done: reflect some sunlight into a patch of shadow with a mirror and then compare this to a flashlight! Hmm... I think I can do this if we get some sun here in Chicago. Wouldn't that be neat--a beamshot of the sun!


 
Sunny today!


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## Gregozedobe (Jan 17, 2010)

gbelleh said:


> Some who have multiple QMinis have stated definite differences in tint with some samples close to pure white, and others more green tinted.
> 
> Here's an idea to see how much of this is personal interpretation:
> 
> Pass one of these flashlights around by mail to several different CPF members. Everyone could note their opinion of the tint color. After all participants have evaluated the light, everyone would post their notes in one thread at the same time.


 
I did something much quicker and easier (and while it is subjective, IMO it is still valid, as it is a reasonably broad comparison) - I compared the tint my two Mini AAs against the collection of 18 "decent" lights currently sitting on my desk (i ignored the several little cheapies, as they tend to be purple). These lights have all been purchased within the last 6 months, so wouldn't be regarded as "old" by most people's standards. They range in price from $20 - $110, with most being less than $50.00)

My assessment is that my "warm" mini AA has a distinct peach or apricot tint, and while it "seems" to have less overall ouput than my ITP A2 EOS, it does actually illuminate about the same. I personally prefer a "whiter" tint, as it seems to show up objects outside better to my (56 year old) eyes. 

My "cool" mini AA has a distinct greenish tint which I don't like, noticeably more green than any of the other 18 lights. The gren tint is quite noticeable in use outside. I paid particularly close attention to the comparison with my Illumina Ti, as it has the same emitter (XP-G) - the Illumina has a much "whiter" tint (ie no particular colour), and also seems to put out slightly more light, so I much prefer the output of the Illumina.

I would like to buy a mini 123, but am concerned that I will "lose" the green lottery and end up with another light wth a green tint that I dislike. 



applevision said:


> Can anyone add warm vs. cool photos of the MiNi AA?


 
I can't help with beamshots, but see my comments about these two lights above.


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## Justintoxicated (Feb 4, 2010)

Nice bathroom and shower!


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## gadgetnerd (Feb 5, 2010)

I've got both the regular cool white and the neutral mini AA and Mini 123. I have to say that like many (most) people here, the so called "cool" torches are both very green, compared to pretty much any torch I own. The neutrals are both absolutely beautifully warm tinted, and the tighter hot spot is more useful for me. Both have smoother tighter threading and cleaner lenses too 

My 2010 resolution is to only buy neutral or warm tinted versions of torches, even if it means waiting an extra month or two.


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## pjandyho (Feb 5, 2010)

After reading this thread, I am starting to fear the worst.

I have a MiNi AA in neutral white and a Ti MiNi 123 in neutral white which I absolutely loved so much since I am an outdoors person. The warmer tints help to bring out the colors and contrast of trees and plants better.

Lately I decided to get another MiNi 123 XP-G for urban usage since it is brighter than the neutral whites, and I had just ordered another MiNi 123 which is already halfway en-route to me, and in which I am starting to fear the worst since I hated greenish tints.

I used to own a Surefire L1. Loved the beam shape and throw but hated the very greenish tint. Sold it off to a friend who don't mind the greenish tint but now I can't help but feel I am going through deja vu again.


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## Monocrom (Feb 7, 2010)

Cool tint for me as well.

Despite how my eyes are supposed to work, beams with cool tint make it easier for me to see details.


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## Kif (Feb 8, 2010)

Just found the 7777 website already took out the warm mini on the list.
It quite save our time on choosing warm or cool mini now .
I was lucky to get a warm mini 123 before it ran out.


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## pjandyho (Feb 9, 2010)

Oh, what a shame. I love the warm tinted ones very much! I have a titanium 123 in neutral white and a regular AA in neutral white and I love them both. I had ordered and just received my regular 123 with cool white XP-G and was thinking of ordering another regular 123 in neutral white when more money comes in but it's gone now. Should have just gotten the 123 neutral white first. Looks like I have no choice but to use my ti 123 if I want to EDC a neutral white.

Could it be because the XP-G neutral whites are in the making?


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## kaichu dento (Feb 9, 2010)

pjandyho said:


> Oh, what a shame. I love the warm tinted ones very much!
> 
> Could it be because the XP-G neutral whites are in the making?


I hope so! 

When the talk of doing a run of neutral tints David said that if we could get 100 commitments he would make up 300 and I've been hoping in the back of my mind that it was going to turn out that he waited to do the other 200 when he could get the neutral xp-g emitters. 

At least I was quick enough on buying that I got 3 of the AA neutrals and another in titanium too! :twothumbs


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## pjandyho (Feb 9, 2010)

kaichu dento said:


> I hope so!
> 
> When the talk of doing a run of neutral tints David said that if we could get 100 commitments he would make up 300 and I've been hoping in the back of my mind that it was going to turn out that he waited to do the other 200 when he could get the neutral xp-g emitters.
> 
> At least I was quick enough on buying that I got 3 of the AA neutrals and another in titanium too! :twothumbs


Maybe you could sweet talk David into doing the commitment thing again with the XP-G neutral white? :devil:

EDIT to add: Oh yes, if possible, include the regular Quarks as well other than the MiNi.


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## smokelaw1 (Feb 9, 2010)

Nuetral XP-G would be nice! I do love that beam profile....but I am seriosuly wondering how many of these tiny little lights I need.

What? Who said that? I need the newest and the best and the brightest and the....


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## Kif (Feb 9, 2010)

I already had both Mini 123 warm and cool.
If there will have Mini 123 Nuetral XP-G in the market, I am in.


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## applevision (Feb 14, 2010)

applevision said:


> Very interesting indeed!
> 
> I wonder if it's been done: reflect some sunlight into a patch of shadow with a mirror and then compare this to a flashlight! Hmm... I think I can do this if we get some sun here in Chicago. Wouldn't that be neat--a beamshot of the sun!



Got it!






New thread here:
https://www.candlepowerforums.com/posts/3279736#post3279736


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## recDNA (Feb 14, 2010)

kaichu dento said:


> I hope so!
> 
> When the talk of doing a run of neutral tints David said that if we could get 100 commitments he would make up 300 and I've been hoping in the back of my mind that it was going to turn out that he waited to do the other 200 when he could get the neutral xp-g emitters.
> 
> At least I was quick enough on buying that I got 3 of the AA neutrals and another in titanium too! :twothumbs


 

Where do I commit to the Quark neutral XP-G?! (unless my wife commits ME first!):twothumbs


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## recDNA (Feb 14, 2010)

applevision said:


> Hey *Phos4*, it's a good point in this case--they are pretty different lights. But the form factor is so neat and the warm is still a pretty darn bright and potent little light! I feel like just a few _months_ ago, the warm would have been a champion in its own right! It's funny how fast things change...
> 
> From reading another thread, it sounds like the XP-G warm should be coming soon. I wonder if 4sevens will update the warm MiNis then?
> 
> ...


 
It's funny. It just struck me today that I'd like to have a small neutral to warm tinted flashlight for the bathroom. A neutral mini AA would be perfect. Wish I thought of it when they were actually available.


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