# Fenix P3D replaces SF E2e



## ugrey (Jun 17, 2007)

Gentlemen, My Fenix P3d is brighter and has longer runtimes than my SF E2e. It is also much more versatile. For the first time in 4 years I dont carry a SureFire any more. It seems like there is something very wrong about this, but, all I know is I now carry more lumens with longer runtimes. Does this mean I have to give up my Tacticool card? Maybe Al can straighten me out. Has any body else retired their E2e?


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## ADDICTED2LITE (Jun 17, 2007)

I've had various Fenix lights in the past. All were bright and had good runtime, but I just couldn't get over the quality issues. Since I have changed back to almost exclusive incandescent Surefires, 10 of them! The LED lights look great on white walls or indoors, but outdoors they just don't cut it. Nothing against Fenix, they seem like good lights, they just don't feel like a Surefire.


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## enLIGHTenment (Jun 17, 2007)

No forward clickie and no direct mode access? Sorry, but that's a toy, not a serious light. SF lights are highly overpriced, but unlike Fenix's offerings, they're not toys.


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## TORCH_BOY (Jun 17, 2007)

The Fenix P3D does it again,


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## vic2367 (Jun 17, 2007)

thats also the reasons why i choose a fenix over a sf,,,brighter light and longer runtimes,:thumbsup:,,,,just got a sf e2l outdoorsman ,,and sent it too milky for some mods,,,




cant wait to get it ,,,


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## firefly99 (Jun 17, 2007)

enLIGHTenment said:


> No forward clickie and no direct mode access? Sorry, but that's a toy, not a serious light. SF lights are highly overpriced, but unlike Fenix's offerings, they're not toys.


+1

It is pointless to compare LED and incan technology, since both good just different. Comparing a toy light and a professional light is also a waste of time.

Fenix does not have the Surefire's build quality and reliability. There is no comparison between Fenix and Surefire, they are in different league.


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## ugrey (Jun 17, 2007)

Direct mode access? The P3D goes straight into turbo mode, over 100 lumens. I like SFs momentary but you can't tell me a reverse clickie is slower. I own 6 incan. SFs from E1 to M6. The P3D throws the same or farther than my E2e. SF pushes plenty of Led lights for tactical situations. Tell me about your Fenix failures.


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## zk188 (Jun 17, 2007)

firefly99 said:


> +1
> 
> It is pointless to compare LED and incan technology, since both good just different. Comparing a toy light and a professional light is also a waste of time.
> 
> Fenix does not have the Surefire's build quality and reliability. There is no comparison between Fenix and Surefire, they are in different league.


 

Really now why must people bash fenix because they made a light that out performs your overpriced surefire Fenix lights are not toys and surefire build quality is not all what you think it may be they cant even get a clicky switch right Fenix offers an amaizing produtc at a low price and that is no reason to bash them.


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## PhantomPhoton (Jun 17, 2007)

enLIGHTenment said:


> No forward clickie and no direct mode access? Sorry, but that's a toy, not a serious light. SF lights are highly overpriced, but unlike Fenix's offerings, they're not toys.



I agree, though I admit I am a bit biased on the clickie point. The reverse just kills the deal when it comes to trying to _ replace _ a Surefire.


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## firefly99 (Jun 17, 2007)

zk188 said:


> Really now why must people bash fenix because they made a light that out performs your overpriced surefire Fenix lights are not toys and surefire build quality is not all what you think it may be they cant even get a clicky switch right Fenix offers an amaizing produtc at a low price and that is no reason to bash them.



I do not own any Fenix or Surefire shares. I am totally cool if people love LED based light such as HDS, Arc.

I only had issue with people trying to compare an apple with orange or toy with a professional grade tool.

I am not convince Fenix lights are professional tools.

Tell me how many LEO/soilders ever use their Fenix as a weapon mounted light in a gun battle in the sandbox.


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## yellow (Jun 17, 2007)

Man 
the talk is about a E2 in comparison to a P3 and some ppl talk about "professional light" and "brightness" meaning the E2 ???
Maybe should purchase an actual led light just to compare? :thinking:

I had my 9N as my primary bike light the last years and now a single emitter cree led running on a single 18650 replaces it. Brighter with double runtime but half the size/weight.
And the 9N is brighter than the E2.
... no way I can understand these opinions.


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## greenstuffs (Jun 17, 2007)

Try to use your P3D or any Fenix in a Rogers Grip :nana: or when you need momentary on/off you might be dead if your life depended on a Fenix :shakehead



zk188 said:


> Really now why must people bash fenix because they made a light that out performs your overpriced surefire Fenix lights are not toys and surefire build quality is not all what you think it may be they cant even get a clicky switch right Fenix offers an amaizing produtc at a low price and that is no reason to bash them.


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## Windscale (Jun 17, 2007)

Firstly I would like to say that I am not a SF Kicker. I can prove this by referring to what I wrote in CPF sone time ago.

Windscale



vbmenu_register("postmenu_1367867", true); 
Flashaholic
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 108 






*Re: Surefire haters?* 
"It should not be a matter of love and hate. When SF makes a good product I would love it. I have used a couple of 6Ps for many years. They were very good despite the fact that they sucked batteries. But if one were to feed them well, then they become your good friends. But since a few months ago, the heads were replaced with KL3s. Now they become great lights. No longer sucking batteries whilst providing sufficient output.

I have no brand loyalties at all. What is good is good. What is not good is not so good. The idea is to keep an open mind and buy gear only to suit one's needs."


But times have moved again. I hope my KL3s, now rarely used, will be replaced again soon. It is my pragmatic and utilitarian approach, that is, what is useful is good.

I can't really say Fenixes are toys and SFs are professional equipment. What's good about the pro equipment if it ran out of batts early or not being bright enough. It would be like a Rolls-Royce of the 1950s, good to look at, prestigious to own, but out on the roads...! I still think brand loyalty is the worst thing. A company which does not keep pace with modern technology should not be permitted to survive. Although SF can survive on military contracts. But by not keeping up with the latast tech would mean not doing justice to those who are putting their lives on the line for us. 

Last week, I bought a Chinese Cree torch made by Z power Led (YJ-18WE) which runs on 1 x 18650. It is very bright with good runtime and, surprisingly, excellent construction comparable to SF! and cost much less than my 6P +KL3. 

At the moment I am trying to restructure my lights and keep mainly those running on rechargeables 18650s and AA eneloops. Primaries will see their ways out as my contributions to being environmentally friendly. 

My message is: Be pragmatic when it comes to parting with your hard -earned cash! and always think about the future generations when you think about your power source.


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## LightJaguar (Jun 17, 2007)

firefly99 said:


> I do not own any Fenix or Surefire shares. I am totally cool if people love LED based light such as HDS, Arc.
> 
> I only had issue with people trying to compare an apple with orange or toy with a professional grade tool.
> 
> ...


 

As a former US Armed Forces person I have some knowledge of Military life. Most personnel in the US Armed Forces do not depend on some "professional" flashlight for safety. As a matter of fact at any given time most military personnel on night missions, or guard duty probably do not have a decent flashlight. The ones we used are the old cheap incandescent type, if any. SF has sure got the marketing right to make a lot people believe that military people only use their products. In my years of military service I never ever saw a SF flashlight or any other high powered LED flashlight. Military pay is pretty low too and since SFs tend to be expensive I doubt that many military people own one. Add to that the price of the batteries and many soldiers woud have to eat a lot MREs just to own a SF. 
I myself own a couple of SF and Fenix lights and I much prefer the Fenix ones over SF. Sure SF are very nice looking and they got the brand name but Fenix beats them hands down in just about everything else. My wine color SF sure looks nice with my burgundy Jaguar though.


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## 22hornet (Jun 17, 2007)

Windscale said:


> Firstly I would like to say that I am not a SF Kicker. I can prove this by referring to what I wrote in CPF sone time ago.
> ...
> At the moment I am trying to restructure my lights and keep mainly those running on rechargeables 18650s and AA eneloops. Primaries will see their ways out as my contributions to being environmentally friendly.
> 
> My message is: Be pragmatic when it comes to parting with your hard -earned cash! and always think about the future generations when you think about your power source.




Hello, thanks!
Care for the environment: finally a good and solid reason to convince Surefire to make their battery tubes wide enough for rechargeable cells.
No kidding, this is a viable reason to make them change their attitude towards RCR123A cells.

Kind regards,
Joris

I will buy an A2 as soon as it can be easily charged with RCR123A cells.


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## MorpheusT1 (Jun 17, 2007)

Offtopic,


The A2 works with R123`s btw...many mambers use this combo for guilt free lumens.


Benny


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## 22hornet (Jun 17, 2007)

Hello, 
Yes, my L2 also works with RCR123A, but I have to strip the outer foil off the cell first. And even then it remains a very tight fit. And rumor has it that A2 bodies are narrower than L2 bodies. Surefire should make their tubes wider.

Kind regards,
Joris


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## Windscale (Jun 17, 2007)

22hornet said:


> Hello, thanks!
> Care for the environment: finally a good and solid reason to convince Surefire to make their battery tubes wide enough for rechargeable cells.
> No kidding, this is a viable reason to make them change their attitude towards RCR123A cells.
> 
> ...


 

This again may be off topic. But I do have reservations about R123As because of their low mah. So, apart from a few small EDC lights which take 1 x R123A, I think it is better to use 18650 or even 17670 lights for more serious uses because of their higher mah.


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## ugrey (Jun 17, 2007)

Greenstuffs, With no grip ring It is kind of hard to use the Rogers Grip on my E2e. Pistols are another hobby of mine, I have a Z3 and I have never liked the Rodgers Grip. I am not crazy about the switch on the P3d but, that is a trade off for more lumens, longer regulated runtime and versatility.


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## ScooterBug (Jun 17, 2007)

i have both Fenix and Urefire products. i Like my P1, P2D, LOD, but i cary a surfie E1E or A2 everywhere i go.


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## LEDcandle (Jun 17, 2007)

I have both products too... Surefire has its fair shares of failures, and of course, so does Fenix. I wouldn't call the latter a toy though.. and depending on either with your life isn't recommended.. just treat both as high quality tools and use them as such. 

I'm an SF lover but they are far from perfect. There is no guarantee that taking an incan or LED SF is more reliable than taking a Fenix into the field. SF is generally better quality and finish but that should be expected for that price.

Also, the price gap is not totally due to just quality and reliability. Don't forget SFs are a US product and aimed for specialised consumers, so prices just soar. It doesn't necessarily mean all the $ was spent on R&D, quality and finish. Besides higher cost of materials and labour, there is also profit margin mixed into it. So a $150 SF light doesn't mean exactly $100 worth of better materials/R&D than a $50 Fenix. 

SF also has a 'cult' status of some sort. It's been marketed and branded as the top-end of tactical illumination, so we also buy SFs for ego fulfillment needs and not just its practical use. So its hard to put a value on this kind of fanaticism. 

Anyway, most of us are just general users... use whatever suits our needs. Don't delve too much into BrandX vs BrandY etc.. They all have their niches. I would say for general use, Fenix is a very strong competitor. Nothing wrong with a 100+ lumen, intelligent interface, multi-mode, long runtime light with pretty good HA. 

Anyway, China has the advantages of low-cost.. I'm sure if they really wanted to come up with something of equal standards as an SF, it would still actually cost them maybe ony 30-50%. That doesn't mean it's an inferior product. 

Heck, I mean its not a rocket we are talking about. It's a hunk of aluminium with some coating, basic electronics and an LED. Do you really think its so hard to do? They have the CAD machines, they have the metal, they have the coating techniques, they have the electronics know-how and they have low-cost on their side.

The only thing I hate is their blatant copying instead of innovating. But for their original products.....definitely up and coming, and not just for flashlights.


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## wrathothebunny (Jun 17, 2007)

Honestly, all this SureFire snobbery is shameful and disgusting. Toys not tools? You have to be joking right? Of course SureFire's are tools, but that in no way makes Fenix's toys. I'm sorry, but last I checked, tactical operation and meeting milspec standards was not required for an everyday or outdoor light. What exactly are you guys doing outdoors? Are you storming buildings? Clearing rooms? Rescuing hostages? Conducting covert ops? Give me a break.

But I know what you'll say - something like you can't take the chance that your light will fail on you. If you're light fails you at the wrong moment, does it mean your very life? If you're hiking, what, you're not also going to bring a headlamp or a secondary light? That wouldn't be too smart, SureFire or no.
Listen, I own a SureFire 12P (9P + Extender) and it kicks [email protected]#. I also own a Fenix P3D. The SureFire will NOT come with me on camping trips - the Fenix does. Why? Crazy runtime and multilevel brightness settings in a compact size - only 2 spare CR123s needed.

But you're right, LEDs aren't good for everything, and Incan is more appropriate for situations when good color and depth rendering are needed, like outdoors. So I'll be bringing a Princeton Tec 40 with me (with about a 3 watt Xenon bulb swapped in). It'll be loaded up with 4 Eneloop NIMHs, and for everything but winter, this should work fantastically - 3 hours runtime. But if the Fenix is a toy, then, boy, what the heck would this Tec 40 be, what with its plastic lens and body and all?

So, I prefer 2 "toys" to my SureFire for outdoor use. Yep, must be something very wrong with me. Horses for courses I say. Use lights suited for camping or hiking for, well, camping and hiking. Use tactical lights for situations that, well, demand tactical operation - like emergencies, self-defense, search/rescue, and the like.

Seriously, you SureFire snobs need to get a life.


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## cave dave (Jun 17, 2007)

I retired and sold off My E2e last year, even before the Cree's came out. I found myself using a HDS B42 and other LED's all the time instead. With the advent of Cree's and P4s the reasons to ditch Halogens are even more compelling. 

However the numbers don't tell the whole story. I was about to give away the Brinkmann LX in my glove box (around 50 lm, poor mans E2). But I decided to do a field test first against my P4 HDS (approx 100 lm). I shinned both of them on the trees, field and hills at the far end of the yard. The difference was amazing, even though the HDS is putting out more lumens the Halogen bulb brought out way more details in the browns and greens of the yard. There are often deer in the field next door. The halogen makes it so much easier to spot the deer against the brownish green field. I imagine if I was in the military I wouldn't want to try to spot a guy in Camo hiding in the trees with an LED no matter how bright. It just doesn't pick out the fine detail.

Now I'm regretting selling my E2e. :sigh:

OTOH: LED's seem so much better for caving, the long battery life and adjustable levels make up for the tint and all the halogen caving lights had terrible quality beams anyways.


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## selfbuilt (Jun 17, 2007)

wrathothebunny said:


> Honestly, all this SureFire snobbery is shameful and disgusting. Toys not tools? You have to be joking right? Of course SureFire's are tools, but that in no way makes Fenix's toys. I'm sorry, but last I checked, tactical operation and meeting milspec standards was not required for an everyday or outdoor light. What exactly are you guys doing outdoors? Are you storming buildings? Clearing rooms? Rescuing hostages? Conducting covert ops? Give me a break.



Well put! I'm all for a rational discussion of the relative merits of one light over another, but when it degenerates into name-calling (i.e. denigrating a quality tool as a "toy"), you know we are now into the realm of "rationalization" and not rationality. Congrats on appropriately calling a spade a spade ... :thumbsup:

Great username, btw (makes me think of monty python - "I nearly soiled my armor!")


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## firefly99 (Jun 17, 2007)

yellow said:


> the talk is about a E2 in comparison to a P3.


 The OP is comparing P3D (LED light) with E2E (incan light). This is a pointless an orange and apple comparison.



yellow said:


> Maybe should purchase an actual led light just to compare? .


 Well, I had multiple LED lights.



wrathothebunny said:


> Listen, I own a SureFire 12P (9P + Extender) and it kicks [email protected]#.


Big deal, I had one too.

Given the option to purchase a dozen screwdriver at $2 each or a professional grade screwdriver costing $50. I would rather pay more for the quality of a professional grade tool.

Like I said earlier, Fenix and Surefire are in different league. I will not spend my hard earned cash on a Fenix. If I need an another LED light, I would rather get a HDS.


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## greenstuffs (Jun 17, 2007)

Why you call it snobbery when you Fenix owners are trying to justify how good the little import flashlight they bought for nearly the price of a surefire? Really the people that compares surefire with fenix needs to get their things straight,
As of now i haven't seen any surefire cree based model in the market yet people still says "My fenix L2D is better than the U2" well SF U2 was out in the market 3 yrs ago and last time i checked 3 yrs ago Fenix didn't have anything that came near it may be 40 lumens on high what happened then to you Fenix Fans?, Or my P3D have more runtime than the E2E well since its a incandescent i see no reason why it should run longer than a LED at comparable brightness. 
Surefire Owners don't go storming buildings every other day or have a hostage rescue mission but i don't think you Fenix owners needs your strobe for lets say blinding your attacker but first (lets find the mode, oh crap it went on low!!) do you get stranded in an desert island for your summer vacation for the need of the SOS? I would like to see a Fenix owner use his lights for morse code signaling (the SOS don't count)
There isn't thing such as surefire snobbery, we just enjoy flashlights and many surefire owners have owned Fenix and other lesser quality lights we just put things into perspective. But there is such a thing as Fenix owners up talk their flashlight and glorified as if it were THE FLASHLIGHT they chose no other flashlight manufacturer to compare it than Surefire, I call it buying a KIA sonata and trashtalk Jaguar S-Type owners because thats what you ALL FENIX B*$#es do. Its normal when people can't afford things they want and justify their lesser purchase as a better alternative than a pricier thing. 



wrathothebunny said:


> Honestly, all this SureFire snobbery is shameful and disgusting. Toys not tools? You have to be joking right? Of course SureFire's are tools, but that in no way makes Fenix's toys. I'm sorry, but last I checked, tactical operation and meeting milspec standards was not required for an everyday or outdoor light. What exactly are you guys doing outdoors? Are you storming buildings? Clearing rooms? Rescuing hostages? Conducting covert ops? Give me a break.
> 
> But I know what you'll say - something like you can't take the chance that your light will fail on you. If you're light fails you at the wrong moment, does it mean your very life? If you're hiking, what, you're not also going to bring a headlamp or a secondary light? That wouldn't be too smart, SureFire or no.
> Listen, I own a SureFire 12P (9P + Extender) and it kicks [email protected]#. I also own a Fenix P3D. The SureFire will NOT come with me on camping trips - the Fenix does. Why? Crazy runtime and multilevel brightness settings in a compact size - only 2 spare CR123s needed.
> ...


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## firefly99 (Jun 17, 2007)

greenstuffs said:


> Why you call it snobbery when you Fenix owners are trying to justify how good the little import flashlight they bought for nearly the price of a surefire? Really the people that compares surefire with fenix needs to get their things straight,
> As of now i haven't seen any surefire cree based model in the market yet people still says "My fenix L2D is better than the U2" well SF U2 was out in the market 3 yrs ago and last time i checked 3 yrs ago Fenix didn't have anything that came near it may be 40 lumens on high what happened then to you Fenix Fans?, Or my P3D have more runtime than the E2E well since its a incandescent i see no reason why it should run longer than a LED at comparable brightness.
> Surefire Owners don't go storming buildings every other day or have a hostage rescue mission but i don't think you Fenix owners needs your strobe for lets say blinding your attacker but first (lets find the mode, oh crap it went on low!!) do you get stranded in an desert island for your summer vacation for the need of the SOS? I would like to see a Fenix owner use his lights for morse code signaling (the SOS don't count)
> There isn't thing such as surefire snobbery, we just enjoy flashlights and many surefire owners have owned Fenix and other lesser quality lights we just put things into perspective. But there is such a thing as Fenix owners up talk their flashlight and glorified as if it were THE FLASHLIGHT they chose no other flashlight manufacturer to compare it than Surefire, I call it buying a KIA sonata and trashtalk Jaguar S-Type owners because thats what you ALL FENIX B*$#es do. .


+1
Well said.


greenstuffs said:


> Its normal when people can't afford things they want and justify their lesser purchase as a better alternative than a pricier thing.


I do notice a lot of people buying a Fenix because they said Surefire use expensive CR123. The strange thing is after they bough their Fenix which use AA or AAA cells, they get the CR123 body tube for the option to use CR123. This show that these people actually want a CR123 light but cannot afford and settle a lesser purchase.


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## LEDcandle (Jun 17, 2007)

greenstuffs said:


> There isn't thing such as surefire snobbery, we just enjoy flashlights and many surefire owners have owned Fenix and other lesser quality lights we just put things into perspective.



If you look carefully at this thread and similar threads, people who actually own both brands in fact have very objective and rational comparisons, not just name-calling and putting down. (except those who've had the misfortune of getting a lemon here and there)

I suspect many of the die-hard loyalists of each brand have not actually owned a light of the opposing brand before or only tried a friend's piece briefly. 

As an owner and user of various models of both brands, I must say Fenix is not that far to the extent that they are treated as a toy (although Jetbeams, for me personally, are closer to SF 'quality'). I like the black HA finish on the L1P better than current models, but it wasn't that durable. Their later lights have better HA, but I don't like the glossy finish. Their HA natural is kinda nice too, but I still prefer the SFs HA color. 

Fit and finish are of pretty good quality. Tint issues with their LEDs of course, but SF has that problem too. 

No forward clickie/momentary is a bit of pain to some, but generally not a big deal with others. We've discussed it millions of times, but I'm still not sure why China manufacturers don't want to put a forward clickie. Even if they pass that additional cost to the consumer, I'm sure the light would still sell well. 

Let's just keep things objective here. And to those who have not used at least a few lights from both brands before, I wouldn't make sweeping and condemning statements; it just makes one look ignorant. :shrug:


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## Vinnyp (Jun 17, 2007)

These threads make me smile, I gave my last E2e away on here because it was never used my keyring light is brighter. I still have an SF L2 an L4 and a good few weapon lights for genuine tactical use. Incidentally Surefire no longer make an incan pistol light and we have been told all the weapon lights are going to be LED which makes sense because even the damped ones pop like crazy. 

No one runs around with a Fenix weapon light because they don't make one, if they did based on what I have seen, I'd be happy to try them. I haven't seen anyone with a Surefire on their keyring either so maybe that means Photon make better lights than Surefire. :shakehead

I get the Surefires for free, I have plenty of Fenix lights that I paid for myself and I carry them most of the time. Many colleagues have bought them as well. They are smaller and lighter but have a higher output. Not so useful for tactical (wrong switch) but they are not claiming to be a tactical light. I have never known either to fail because of the strength of the case or machined parts so you could argue the Surefire is over engineered. To be fair I did kill an L0-Ti but I doubt any light could have stood up to that either. I have had many Surefire electrical failures as has everyone I work with (no one died though :duh2: if my "life depended" on a light I'd be somewhere not so dangerous but I'd not have Surefire at the top of my list either). I have never personally had a Fenix fail and no one I know has either but I am sure they have failures. If I went onto that mythical dessert island I'd take the Fenix; runtime weight and versatility over reassuring heft and momentary switch.


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## Windscale (Jun 17, 2007)

LEDcandle said:


> If you look carefully at this thread and similar threads, people who actually own both brands in fact have very objective and rational comparisons, not just name-calling and putting down. (except those who've had the misfortune of getting a lemon here and there)...
> 
> Let's just keep things objective here. And to those who have not used at least a few lights from both brands before, I wouldn't make sweeping and condemning statements; it just makes one look ignorant. :shrug:


 
As stated earlier, I am not a SF Kicker. I own both and many other brands as well.

Those suffering from brand loyality blindness and are so un- or under-educated so as to be able to come up with logical and objective statements should put your prejudices aside for the time being (nomatter which camp you belong to) and start thinking rationally.

I am also eager to see what SF will turn up with next month.


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## wrathothebunny (Jun 17, 2007)

I second that, Windscale. I own both SureFire and Fenix, and I love each for their intended purpose. For home defense (with lethal backup), nothing beats my SureFire. It puts out 210 torch lumens of blinding, white, tactically focused light. For everyday use, I love my Fenix. I rarely have to change batteries, and I can select the level of brightness I want. Maybe I just got a good copy, but I love the tint - only a hint of blue and only slight yellow around the corona. I've got my Tec 40 coming in the mail, and I'll let you know, but I'm sure I'll love that too for lighting up trails at night.


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## CyByte (Jun 17, 2007)

for EDC or a keychain light I'd look at fenix 1 CR123A light, but as far as a tactical light I need for armed security I would not consider that type of switch. (I carry my Inova T2 for that)


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## Windscale (Jun 17, 2007)

Well wrathothebunny, I still have 2 Tec 40s (the original incands) in my collection. They seldom get used these days. They still have their sentimental values, but had to give way to modern LEDs. I have tried, perhaps not hard enough, to find a suitable drop in, but not much luck. They were great waterproof light in their days.


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## Quickbeam (Jun 17, 2007)

Wow. What a huge bunch of baloney! The thread starter was comparing an E2e to a P3D, not an M6 to a Photon knockoff...

"Surefires are 'professional tools'". 

By who's standard? This reminds me of the big hoopla we've heard before about calling a light "tactical" or not. The definition is completely arbitrary depending on the perspective of the writer. 

Its seems that some folks like to define 'professional" as LEO or Mil. I've got some surprising news for you folks - there are a lot of other types of "professional" out there who use portable illumination devices. I saw a Duke Energy employee working on high voltage lines in the dark this winter with a Streamlight Septor headlamp on his helmet. He's depending on that 5mm LED light for his life as well - is he less of a "professional" than a LEO in the field? Is that light a "toy" to him? I think not.

"Comparing an E2e with a P3D is apples and oranges." 

Ugrey isn't comparing them as "house to house search lights in Baghdad", for which both lights are ill suited. If you're comparing them as general/rough use utility lights, *which is what they both are*, then I believe the "apples vs. oranges" argument falls apart. Overall utility will, in most instances, go to the multi-level light when comparing lights of comparable power source and output; e.g. the P3D. However, in this case, the P3D pretty much outclasses the E2e in output, runtime, and utility. So perhaps from that perspective it is comparing apples and oranges. The one indisputable advantage that the E2e has is better full-spectrum color rendition, which is not always necessary, but may be depending on what the person using the light requires.

We've been through this before with Surefire Snobs (and occasionally Surefire Haters) duking it out with others albeit much more aggressively. Beware those who love a brand with nearly blind devotion, or vice versa - they're motives are not always all that pure. I wrote this article quite some time ago in direct response to these types of arguments:

http://www.flashlightreviews.com/features/loyalty.htm

My 2 cents, but... 

Doug P.


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## Windscale (Jun 17, 2007)

I think it is all our most sincere hope that Flashlightreviews.com should continue and reach new heights.


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## zk188 (Jun 17, 2007)

greenstuffs said:


> Try to use your P3D or any Fenix in a Rogers Grip :nana: or when you need momentary on/off you might be dead if your life depended on a Fenix :shakehead


 

Goodluck getting your momentary to work.


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## paulr (Jun 17, 2007)

I wouldn't say Fenixes are toys; I'd describe them as consumer electronics. Take a look at a typical LEO walkie talkie sometime, built like a tank for a very specific purpose, and compare it with a consumer cellular phone which has 10x as many features (mp3 player, pocket PC) and is 1/4 of the size and price but is fragile and confusing. It's the same situation with SF vs Fenix.


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## ampdude (Jun 17, 2007)

Every Fenix I ever saw on Frashright Reviews always got a 4.5 or 5.0 rating that I recall, though I never thought they deserved it. I don't recall much being said about the below average build quality inside and out which is far behind that of Inova and Surefire. I have had several Fenix lights and many Surefires/Inovas and Fenix lights just don't compare in any way shape or form. They are the ultimate shelf queen toylight in my opinion. The sad part is, they are starting to cost as much as SureFire's. Didn't some people pay close to $80 for their L1D-CE's when they first came out even though they were the sloppy threaded, ring beamed things they were?

I use the E0-E2R in my E2E with a couple of AW's RCR123A's and it makes the Fenix L2D-CE on turbo look like a joke. And the multi-level switch is part two of the joke. Surefire knows how to do it right. Either put a ring selector (U2) or design a great mult-level switch of your own (A2). I would never carry around a silly light like one with Fenix's multi-level reverse clicky. (Not that I could anyways, no pocketclip) Even playing with it in the living room it was difficult to get it to do exactly what you wanted it to. Imagine this in a stressful situation. You'd be "tapping" for modes but end up clicking it off and on by accident. I like to carry a bright tactical level light with quick access and good color rendition outdoors.

I'm always happy to try the latest Fenix, to see if they have improved in any way, but it is always the same old same old and they end up getting sold. :thumbsdow


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## zk188 (Jun 17, 2007)

They are still getting sold so they must be doing something right. Everyone jumps on fenix if one light has a ringy beam but it is no big deal for surefire to have failing tailcaps and Vomit inducing tints it seems to me like there is a double standard.


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## Monocrom (Jun 17, 2007)

It's nice to see that brand snobbery is alive and well on both sides. 

Whatever happened to carry what you can afford, what meets your needs, and isn't a pain in the @$$ to EDC?.... Regardless of which name is printed on the light itself. 

I can afford some Surefire models. Both the Fenix P3D and E2e would meet my needs. The Fenix's lack of a carry-clip would make the P3D a pain for me to carry around. (My belt has enough items on it, and carrying the light behind my wallet in a backpocket is not something I'd enjoy on a daily basis). But that's just me. The E2e's hour of runtime, with no warning when the light is about to go out, is less of a pain than the lack of a carry-clip. (I'm sure others would have the opposite view). 

Regardless of which brand you carry, a back-up light is always a good idea. Even if it's just a key-chain model. 

I carry a Surefire L4 on a regular basis. (One way to fix the E2e's runtime of only an hour. The trade-off is less throw, at least outdoors).


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## Vinnyp (Jun 17, 2007)

zk188 said:


> They are still getting sold so they must be doing something right. Everyone jumps on fenix if one light has a ringy beam but it is no big deal for surefire to have failing tailcaps and Vomit inducing tints it seems to me like there is a double standard.


 
Yep and a doughnut is OK as well. 



ampdude said:


> Every Fenix I ever saw on Frashright Reviews always got a 4.5 or 5.0 rating that I recall, though I never thought they deserved it. I don't recall much being said about the below average build quality inside and out which is far behind that of Inova and Surefire.


 
If only quickbeam had some other lights to compare them with :shakehead


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## nerdgineer (Jun 17, 2007)

ugrey said:


> ...Does this mean I have to give up my Tacticool card?...


Since you've made your call, you should come back in a while and give us YOUR feedback. As you may have noticed, there are two schools of thought on this one....


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## h_nu (Jun 17, 2007)

A few voices of reason have spoken up and I think that the Surefire vs. Fenix argument is no different than the Ford vs. Chevy arguments or any other brand. If the original poster is happy with a Fenix I won't question his needs. I'm happy for him.

I don't like the lack of lock out on my old G2 or the very blue tint of my "white" A2 LED's. My Fenix lights don't feel rugged. That's why I stay here. I haven't found a perfect light yet. I keep hoping my next light will be close enough to fill in the holes of my multiple EDC's. I also keep hoping I can observe without being sucked in to the black hole. I have too many lights now, if there is such a thing.


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## Monocrom (Jun 17, 2007)

h_nu said:


> ..... I have too many lights now, if there is such a thing.


 
Only if you have to rent a storage locker just for your lights.


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## ampdude (Jun 17, 2007)

Vinnyp said:


> Yep and a doughnut is OK as well.




It is the byproduct of the large emitter area of a Luxeon 5. 





> If only quickbeam had some other lights to compare them with :shakehead




They will be out soon.


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## MarNav1 (Jun 17, 2007)

Well call me simple but I figure to each his own. I have Surefires and Fenixes and I like both. If one guy likes a P2D and the other likes an E1L
that's cool with me. My favorite and most useful light is a Milky L1 but if somebody says it's not as good as a P1D-CE that's okay we don't have to
agree to be friends. As they say (no harm no foul). Sure we could get into
the economics of it but thats for another place.......


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## TITAN1833 (Jun 17, 2007)

to me they both have their place in the consumer market.they both light up the dark. but preference is a choice and we should respect,what may not be good for one,will be good for another,im sure some in the third world would love to own a LIL BUDDY "5000" even brighter than some surefire flashlights.i LOL at that one,but im sure they could put it to good use.IMHO in a blackout any light would do .:candle::candle::candle::candle:even these.


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## WadeF (Jun 17, 2007)

The better brand is the brand that meets the user's needs the best. For many people, that's Fenix. Many people here don't need a tactical light and don't want to pay big bucks to get similar lumens out of a Surefire that can be obtained with a less expensive Fenix. I have a Surefire E2e, and at this point, I hate it. It eats batteries, I don't like the forward clicky at all (I want my light to come on and stay on without having to hold in some big old button, or twist something to keep it on), and it's bulky compared to lights like the Fenix P1D, P2D, P3D. 

However, there are people who do tactical things (military, law enforcement, security) that would require what Surefire offers, and for them, a Surefire would be a better light than a Fenix.

Is a $1 screw driver any less of a tool than a $150 cordless drill? If something assists you while you work, it's a tool, not a toy.


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## EV_007 (Jun 17, 2007)

I have and love both. Each has their uses and place in my EDC rotation.

The E2E is still with me. It is by far one of the most compact, versitle Incans out there. SF makes both Incan and LEDs of high quality. If/when others can claim the same, then we my have something. 

With the Lumens Factory bulb options, it gives the P3D a run for it's money. Again, the Incan vs. LED debate rages on. Each to their own, get both and then ask yourself which works best for YOU.


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## ugrey (Jun 17, 2007)

Gentlemen, I sincerely did not mean to cause a SF vs Fenix fight with my question. That was not my intention. But, since I have been here for 4 years, I really should have known better. When I got my P2D I was shocked at how bright and far throwing it was on turbo mode. It just flat beat my E2e. So after scratching my wooden head and doing a whole lot of thinking about the switch, I ordered a P3D to place beside my wallet where my E2e usually goes. I carry the P2D in my front left pocket which is the light I use all the time. Fortunately because of a few million US armed forces men and women, over the years, and tens of thousands of police officers, the most dangerous thing I do is go to the corner grocery (thanks guys for my freedom and my safety). Now I write this knowing that I live in one of the top 5 murder cities in the USA. I have had a few problems over the years. I do own weapons and I do carry from time to time. That is a large reason I am on this board. I have never read of any large problem with the reliability of Fenix. Having said that, I carry two of them as I wrote above. In my briefcase is a Leef 4 battery tube with a Cabelas 240 lumen extender head on it. If I am wearing a coat I usually have a 3 or 4 battery SF in a pocket. If it is summer and I am in cargo pants I have a SF Z3 in a cargo pocket. You see I am a true Flashaholic. Also, if the Fenix P2D or P3D is a toy I would like to know who has given one to a child? There is no contest on the LED blowing VS the E2e bulb when dropped.
I posted my question in order to learn something and most of you, as usual, have helped, thanks. When SF finally comes out with a Cree L4 I am pretty darn sure it will be brighter than the P3D and I will be sending off my money for one, and then I will retire the P3D. But for now the Fenix is the brightest, longest throwing light, that I can afford, that fits in my pocket.


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## kelmo (Jun 17, 2007)

For casual around the town stuff I usually have my E2D or E2e with me. But if I'm on the trail I carry a multilevel LED in my kit. While I don't have a Fenix I do have an HDS. Case in point. Last year a group of friends and I hiked to the top of Half Dome in Yosemite. The last hour and a half was done in darkness. Very cool! My multilevel HDS served me very well indeed. But when I got back to camp I immediatley swapped my HDS for my E2O, Hey I just like incan light better. So when I need light for long amounts of time I will use/carry a LED. If I had a Fenix P3D I would use it. But for the day to day casual stuff its a E2e (I have 4!) for me.

kelmo


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## UWAK (Jun 18, 2007)

+1. You said it right EV 007. Cheers!

Frids


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## skyline_man (Jun 18, 2007)

> The better brand is the brand that meets the user's needs the best. For many people, that's Fenix. Many people here don't need a tactical light and don't want to pay big bucks to get similar lumens out of a Surefire that can be obtained with a less expensive Fenix. I have a Surefire E2e, and at this point, I hate it. It eats batteries, I don't like the forward clicky at all (I want my light to come on and stay on without having to hold in some big old button, or twist something to keep it on), and it's bulky compared to lights like the Fenix P1D, P2D, P3D.



Well said!! 
It puzzles me that these Surefire brand loyal people think that they are in the military fighting terrorists and doing dangerous co ops and that's why they need a 'professional' flashlight that has forward clicky and momentary switch - because without that, their lives will be compromised!! hahahaha. Seriously, you people need to wake up and from the fantasy world ur living in.
Think about it, the only thing that makes a Surefire more rugged than a fenix is the marketing done by surefire to dupe the idiots into thinking that it's a life and death tool! 
Besides, there is more chance of an incandescent Surefire globe blowing in a real 'life and death' situation than a Fenix LED. 
And if ur stuck somewhere in a dark place with flying man eating creatures that hate the light like in the film Pitch Black, and no spare batteries and you've got 2 hours until the sun rises - I think you'll be bird meat with your $250 PROFESSIONAL military spec, tacticle, high performance, life saving Surefire light, and ill still be alive with my $60 TOY Fenix P2D CE? :nana:


> Given the option to purchase a dozen screwdriver at $2 each or a professional grade screwdriver costing $50. I would rather pay more for the quality of a professional grade tool.



True, so in the case of the Fenix vs Surefire - it's a $2 screwdriver that outperforms the $50 one in every aspect, except for one - when you're using it as a hammer?, something that it wasn't design for in the first place?!


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## Esthan (Jun 18, 2007)

skyline_man said:


> Well said!!
> It puzzles me that these Surefire brand loyal people think that they are in the military fighting terrorists and doing dangerous co ops and that's why they need a 'professional' flashlight that has forward clicky and momentary switch - because without that, their lives will be compromised!! hahahaha. Seriously, you people need to wake up and from the fantasy world ur living in.




Stop exageratting, lend an L1 Lumamax or A2 Aviator for a month from 
someone and use it the whole time.

Then You will learn one important thing:
That those "overpriced/übertactical" SureFires are simply more pleasant 
and easier to use than any others (be it Fenix, JET Beam, Streamlight, 
Mag, HDS, ARC, ORB etc). 

Then go back to what You own currently, and whether You like it or not,
You'll feel a small bit of discomfort before you get used to You old flashlight.

And that is the whole philosophy ! UI.


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## skyline_man (Jun 18, 2007)

> Stop exageratting, lend an L1 Lumamax or A2 Aviator for a month from
> someone and use it the whole time.



I don't need to - i own something better, A Surefire U2 and a Surefire M3. And to be honest, i like them both - just to look at, but i always reach for my Fenix's and YJ U2 style each and everytime! Why? Better runtimes, smaller, brighter, takes rechargeables. And if one day there is a war and i have to go - il take my Fenix and YJ U2 style and leave my Surefires at home, cos i know that their bulb wont blow on me, and that their reverse clicky won't fail or get stuck on me when i'm in a life and death situation! 

Also, there will be less of a chance of me getting shot with my Fenix or EJY because with the Surefires, il have to waste 30sec of my precious time changing the 2 x cr123 batteries of my Surefire U2, or 40 sec of my precious time changing 3 x cr123 for my Surefire M3! And i'll have to change them every 40 min or so! Whereas with the Fenix or EJY, i don't have to change batteries for over 2 hours! And if i do - it'l only be 1 battery!

Geez, these toys are damn impressive compared with the professional stuff. U sure, it isn't the other way around?:nana:


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## Esthan (Jun 18, 2007)

When there will be a War, I'll make sure to be on a different continent in that time enjoying a good beer. Besides, war alike line of reasoning is not a proper one to talk about civil products, it ain't proper at all.

Stick to whatever You find useful to You, but there is no need to offend other people that find other brands that You do more useful for them.

P.S.


> It puzzles me that these Surefire brand loyal people think that they are in the military fighting terrorists and doing dangerous co ops and that's why they need a 'professional' flashlight that has forward clicky and momentary switch - because without that, their lives will be compromised!! hahahaha. Seriously, you people need to wake up and from the fantasy world ur living in.





> And if one day there is a war and i have to go - il take my Fenix and YJ U2 style and leave my Surefires at home, cos i know that their bulb wont blow on me, and that their reverse clicky won't fail or get stuck on me when i'm in a life and death situation!
> 
> Also, there will be less of a chance of me getting shot with my Fenix or EJY because with the Surefires, il have to waste 30sec of my precious time changing the 2 x cr123 batteries of my Surefire U2, or 40 sec of my precious time changing 3 x cr123 for my Surefire M3! And i'll have to change them every 40 min or so! Whereas with the Fenix or EJY, i don't have to change batteries for over 2 hours! And if i do - it'l only be 1 battery!



You seem to be one of them for me.


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## ringzero (Jun 18, 2007)

skyline_man said:


> It puzzles me that these Surefire brand loyal people think that they are in the military fighting terrorists and doing dangerous co ops and that's why they need a 'professional' flashlight that has forward clicky and momentary switch - because without that, their lives will be compromised!! hahahaha. Seriously, you people need to wake up and from the fantasy world ur living in.




Please don't disparage the entire class of people who prefer Surefire lights.

There may be some "Armchair Commandos" and "Surefire KoolAid Drinkers" amongst them, but most have other reasons for owning Surefires.

There are Surefire Collectors who may rarely use their lights for illumination purposes.

There are Surefire Users whose jobs call for tough, dependable lights.

Finally, there are Surfire Fanciers who cherish the appearance, feel, and function of an elegantly designed, finely crafted lighting device. They are willing to pay a premium price for that pleasure. Who are you to criticize their choice?


.


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## ampdude (Jun 18, 2007)

skyline_man said:


> I don't need to - i own something better, A Surefire U2 and a Surefire M3. And to be honest, i like them both - just to look at, but i always reach for my Fenix's and YJ U2 style each and everytime! Why? Better runtimes, smaller, brighter, takes rechargeables. And if one day there is a war and i have to go - il take my Fenix and YJ U2 style and leave my Surefires at home, cos i know that their bulb wont blow on me, and that their reverse clicky won't fail or get stuck on me when i'm in a life and death situation!
> 
> Also, there will be less of a chance of me getting shot with my Fenix or EJY because with the Surefires, il have to waste 30sec of my precious time changing the 2 x cr123 batteries of my Surefire U2, or 40 sec of my precious time changing 3 x cr123 for my Surefire M3! And i'll have to change them every 40 min or so! Whereas with the Fenix or EJY, i don't have to change batteries for over 2 hours! And if i do - it'l only be 1 battery!
> 
> Geez, these toys are damn impressive compared with the professional stuff. U sure, it isn't the other way around?:nana:




Funny, my M3 takes rechargeables and is alot brighter than a Fenix or U2 clone. Maybe you have a defective M3??? :sick2:

Ever tried the MN11 lamp assembly or any of the new ones from Lumen's Factory? Maybe yours only came with the LOLA, which is still more and higher quality light output on lithium ions than either of the above mentioned lights anyways :naughty:


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## skyline_man (Jun 18, 2007)

> Please don't disparage the entire class of people who prefer Surefire lights.



My apology, i was directing it at the minority of members out there who think that anything without a Surefire label is considered inferior and a Toy and is not worth using cos it might jeopardize their life!



> Funny, my M3 takes rechargeables and is alot brighter than a Fenix or U2 clone. Maybe you have a defective M3???



Only brighter if you use the MN11 lamp, which lasts only 20mins on primary cr123 - and a rediculously low 10min or so using rcr123! Hardly convenient in normal daily life use and a liability in combat use if you ask me!


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## wrathothebunny (Jun 18, 2007)

Honestly, sometimes these CPF threads start to sound a little too much like Junior High. I would continue to attempt to "reason" with these individuals who claim that their SureFire is THE flashlight to have, and then denigrate the Fenix's. But then I realised, these are not persons that can be reasoned with, at least not on this topic. It's like trying to reason with a sports fan against their favorite team or players - or trying to convince a Ford fanatic of the virtues of Toyota. It just can't be done.

The bottom line is these people's egos are tied to their flashlights/flashlight brand, and if you say ANYTHING that might imply that their flashlight is not as great as they think it is - even if that is not your message, like the original poster's - they take that as a personal insult (even if they deny it), and retaliate in defense of their flashlight by denigrating yours. Like I said, very Junior High.


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## Steve L (Jun 18, 2007)

This reminds me of reading the video game boards when I was younger. A lot of fanboyism. My system is better then yours ,etc etc... I usually owned both systems and always found something to like about each.


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## ampdude (Jun 18, 2007)

skyline_man said:


> Only brighter if you use the MN11 lamp, which lasts only 20mins on primary cr123 - and a rediculously low 10min or so using rcr123! Hardly convenient in normal daily life use and a liability in combat use if you ask me!





Not sure what you're talking about, the MN10 is rated at 125 lumens and is close to 200 lumens on lithium ions so that is not true at all. The runtime is more like approaching an hour on two 17500's (1100mAh) and more than that on a couple of 18500's.

The MN11 will run longer than 10 minutes on 17500's. It's more like about 20-25 minutes from a full charge. But I would recommend running it on at least 18500's or 17670's instead. The difference in quality of light between an MN11 lamp assembly on lithium ions and a Fenix type light is literally like night and day. And from what I've seen so far, the Lumens Factory M series lamps are going to be excellent as well.

I use these lights doing security work all the time and don't run into any problems with short runtime, even running them continuously. I often carry extra batteries with me, but rarely need them. Your post does not make any sense to me.


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## ampdude (Jun 18, 2007)

Steve L said:


> *This reminds me of reading the video game boards when I was younger.* *A lot of fanboyism. *My system is better then yours ,etc etc... I usually owned both systems and always found something to like about each.




But it still makes for interesting reading, doesn't it? :thumbsup:


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## Art Vandelay (Jun 18, 2007)

The E2E and the P3D are very different. If the P3D replaces any Surefire, it replaces the E2L. I think Surefire and Fenix are so different it is hard to compare them.


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## CandlePowerForumsUser (Jun 18, 2007)

"The E2E and the P3D are very different. If the P3D replaces any Surefire, it replaces the E2L. I think Surefire and Fenix are so different it is hard to compare them."

I have an E2L modded with a Reflector and SSC P4, I also have the P3D-CE. It doesn't replace the the E2L. They are still different lights and serves different purpose. But I can see your point in trying to compare an incan to led though.

I can't believe this debate is still going on. :shakehead 

To each his own. 

Hope everyone enjoys their day. Me, I'm going over night fishing and my E2L will be clipped to my cap so i can see where I'm casting my lures. YAY! :thumbsup:


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## LEDcandle (Jun 18, 2007)

If we are starting to compare Lumens Factory products and unrecommended use of Li-ons in combination with different lamp assemblies, then we might as well compare Nekomane or Millermods aftermarket parts for the Fenix as well. 

Stock to stock, it's already hard to compare SF to Fenix, as they serve different purposes and are in different price categories. With aftermarket parts included, its just never going to end.


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## vic2367 (Jun 18, 2007)

well said skyline


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## adamr999 (Jun 18, 2007)

skyline_man said:


> I don't need to - i own something better, A Surefire U2 and a Surefire M3. And to be honest, i like them both - just to look at, but i always reach for my Fenix's and YJ U2 style each and everytime! Why? Better runtimes, smaller, brighter, takes rechargeables. And if one day there is a war and i have to go - il take my Fenix and YJ U2 style and leave my Surefires at home, cos i know that their bulb wont blow on me, and that their reverse clicky won't fail or get stuck on me when i'm in a life and death situation!
> 
> Also, there will be less of a chance of me getting shot with my Fenix or EJY because with the Surefires, il have to waste 30sec of my precious time changing the 2 x cr123 batteries of my Surefire U2, or 40 sec of my precious time changing 3 x cr123 for my Surefire M3! And i'll have to change them every 40 min or so! Whereas with the Fenix or EJY, i don't have to change batteries for over 2 hours! And if i do - it'l only be 1 battery!
> 
> Geez, these toys are damn impressive compared with the professional stuff. U sure, it isn't the other way around?:nana:



Whenever people are looking to shoot you, do you show them your flashlight so they will be able to make an informed decision? 

If a flashlight with throw is necessary, I always grab my E1E not my M6 because of battery life.

I don't think Penix makes lights for long range purposes, and yes I wrote Penix.


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## greenstuffs (Jun 18, 2007)

I only know one thing i never seen a SF owner wishing to have this Fenix only Fenix owners wishing to own surefire and other quality lights. Its all the illiterate comments like yours that fuels this war. Yet again you are comparing a incan and 3 yr old LED flashlight to the latest LED technology flashlights, Surefire has not updated their LEDs for a long time, their incan bulbs remains the same nothing much left to improve there. I will give you an analogy you'd understand you are comparing a 2007 toyota to a 1975 BMW, you are bragging having a car better than your dads old BMW. This is true in some senses but if you have never driving a 2008 BMW because they are not out in the market yet i'm not going to say what Toyota had to offer back in 1975. Wait till they come out and talk now is just "kids BS" 
Really all this hate come from Chinese Fanboys, i just never seen a thread like "My SF is better than your Fenix". The old saying its more true than ever YOU GET WHAT YOU PAID FOR. And if you still think your Fenix lights are better and make you a happier person pls continue doing so. 





skyline_man said:


> I don't need to - i own something better, A Surefire U2 and a Surefire M3. And to be honest, i like them both - just to look at, but i always reach for my Fenix's and YJ U2 style each and everytime! Why? Better runtimes, smaller, brighter, takes rechargeables. And if one day there is a war and i have to go - il take my Fenix and YJ U2 style and leave my Surefires at home, cos i know that their bulb wont blow on me, and that their reverse clicky won't fail or get stuck on me when i'm in a life and death situation!
> 
> Also, there will be less of a chance of me getting shot with my Fenix or EJY because with the Surefires, il have to waste 30sec of my precious time changing the 2 x cr123 batteries of my Surefire U2, or 40 sec of my precious time changing 3 x cr123 for my Surefire M3! And i'll have to change them every 40 min or so! Whereas with the Fenix or EJY, i don't have to change batteries for over 2 hours! And if i do - it'l only be 1 battery!
> 
> Geez, these toys are damn impressive compared with the professional stuff. U sure, it isn't the other way around?:nana:


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## wrathothebunny (Jun 18, 2007)

I am a SureFire owner. My 1st high end flashlight was a SureFire 9P + A19 Extender. I am currently running a 12V Ultra-High-Pressured Xenon lamp module in it that pushes 210 torch lumens out the lens. I love this light for its tactical quality and blinding output, however, once I heard that Fenix had announced the P3D, I was one of the first to pre-order. Now that I have my P3D, I absolutely LOVE its multi-level output and insane runtime. So, now you've met a SureFire owner who couldn't wait for a Fenix.


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## greenstuffs (Jun 18, 2007)

I'm glad you are a happy owner now i know you love your P3D anything else from the Fenix family you want to add? Again you see you are bringing a Fenix comparison over a Surefire again. Its just pointless. Things like oh my beam is ringy, crap my LED is not centered, there is dust in the reflector and the Beam is awful green can only come from lights like Fenix again they cost less for a reason. 



wrathothebunny said:


> I am a SureFire owner. My 1st high end flashlight was a SureFire 9P + A19 Extender. I am currently running a 12V Ultra-High-Pressured Xenon lamp module in it that pushes 210 torch lumens out the lens. I love this light for its tactical quality and blinding output, however, once I heard that Fenix had announced the P3D, I was one of the first to pre-order. Now that I have my P3D, I absolutely LOVE its multi-level output and insane runtime. So, now you've met a SureFire owner who couldn't wait for a Fenix.


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## WadeF (Jun 18, 2007)

greenstuffs said:


> I only know one thing i never seen a SF owner wishing to have this Fenix only Fenix owners wishing to own surefire and other quality lights.


 
I'm a Surefire owner and I'm wishing I had more Fenix lights, like the LOD-CE. I have a P1D-CE and a P3D at the moment, with a P2D Q2 (16% more light using the same amount of power) special edition on the way (That's right, Fenix is already making improved models and Surefire has yet to release a Cree light). 

It all depends on what you want the light for. For me, Fenix's current offerings are more practical and useful for ME. While Surefire lights will be more practical and useful for others. 

What people don't seem to realize is that Fenix's lights are better for some people, and a Surefire isn't always the best light. I'm not going around with my P1D-CE wishing I had a Surefire instead. Does Surefire make anything as small as the P1D-CE that puts out as much light, has adjustable modes, can tail stand, is as efficent, and costs under $70? :CRICKET: :CRICKET:


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## firefly99 (Jun 18, 2007)

skyline_man said:


> Seriously, you people need to wake up and from the fantasy world ur living in.
> 
> And if ur stuck somewhere in a dark place with flying man eating creatures that hate the light like in the film Pitch Black, and no spare batteries and you've got 2 hours until the sun rises - I think you'll be bird meat with your $250 PROFESSIONAL military spec, tacticle, high performance, life saving Surefire light, and ill still be alive with my $60 TOY Fenix P2D CE?


Hey you, wake up from your fantasy world. No self respecting flashaholic will carry 1 light and no spare batteries.


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## firefly99 (Jun 18, 2007)

Art Vandelay said:


> The E2E and the P3D are very different. If the P3D replaces any Surefire, it replaces the E2L. I think Surefire and Fenix are so different it is hard to compare them.


+1 Agreed

I had no issue with LED to LED comparison.


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## Nitro (Jun 18, 2007)

Art Vandelay said:


> The E2E and the P3D are very different. If the P3D replaces any Surefire, it replaces the E2L. I think Surefire and Fenix are so different it is hard to compare them.



LOL!

I bet when Surefire comes out with a Brighter, Longer Running light then Fenix, the Surefire fans will be comparing them.


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## Monocrom (Jun 18, 2007)

WadeF said:


> .... It all depends on what you want the light for. For me, Fenix's current offerings are more practical and useful for ME. While Surefire lights will be more practical and useful for others....


 
It's definitely nice to see another voice of reason among this thread which has degenerated into Die-hard Brand Loyalists on both sides. My Surefire L4 isn't as hungry for batteries as my E2d, or my other Xenon-bulbed Surefire's. The clip is just so handy, I can't live without it. I wish the L4 had more throw, outside. But other than that, it fits all of my needs & wants in a main EDC light. Sorry to hear about the headache your E2e is giving you, Wade. One option would be to get the Kl4 head and convert it into a high-output LED light. That's basically what an L4 is.... an E2e with the Kl4 head on it. 

Here's another fun fact.... If you twist the tailcap on an E2e or L4 so that the light will go on if you push the clickie in all the way, then just twist the tiniest bit so that the light goes off if the clickie is pushed all the way in; you get an awesome strobe feature! Just click that tailcap as fast as you can for a strobe effect that will rival a Night-ops Gladius. (Yeah, I said it). Funny what you discover when you're bored off your @$$. Okay, so you have to keep pressing the Surefire clickie constantly, but you *will *get strobe!


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## revolvergeek (Jun 18, 2007)

I don't understand why when the original poster comes in and says basically 'this is cool, I like it and it works better for me' (i.e. their opinion), people feel the need to basically say 'those are junk, and *serious* people don't use them so they are useless'. If it does what somebody wants it to do, and holds up under their use, why is their opinion wrong? 

I own Fenix and Surefires both. Which one is better? BOTH! I carry the Fenix as a utility light, all the time, everywhere. Two of them in fact. When I am going out in the evenings, or doing something where I feel that I am at a higher threat I add in a Surefire LED light. Why? Mostly because the Surefires have non-clickie, momentary switches and are probably more waterproof. Don't get me wrong; there is nothing *wrong* with the quality of Surefire lights. I had $$$$ worth of Surefires and custom modded Surefires, and sold the majority of them off after I bought my L1D-CE and L0D-CE Fenix because the Fenix were brighter, smaller, cheaper to feed. 

For perspective, when hurricane season comes and I get called out for Taskforce duty, all of them are going to get left behind in favor of a $30 Underwater Kinetics eLed light that is 100% waterproof, mostly as bright, runs longer still and feeds on really cheap batteries, and I won't cry or miss it one bit if I have to give it away to somebody that needs it more at that instant. 

I wish that the Fenix lights had momentary switches. I wish that they had less modes. If it had a momentary switch, I could blink SOS if I was worried about that. I have used the strobe mode several times for signally when working crowds and actually like it. 

My point is that if 1) it's brighter and 2) it runs longer, then 3) "it's a cheaply built toy and is gonna break"' only comes in to play if it actually does break, and breaks more often than the more expensive option. I have never had a Fenix or LED Surefire die on me (despite being dropped, banged on car doors, against equipment racks, and even a couple trips through the washer and drier), but I have had at least 5 or 6 P-series Surefire LAs die from being dropped. One rolled of my desk and died, and that wasn't even 3 feet. I have a Surefire E2 that has been on the same bulb for almost 10 years, and been dropped more than I care to admit, and it is still going strong. Go figure.


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## QuinnK (Jun 18, 2007)

*LOL*

Wow... it's obvious 'blind brand devotion', or fanatacism, and intelligent reasoning power (practical thinking) are mutually exclusive quite often. I haven't been around the forum that long, so may have missed some worse threads... but, in my experience, this thread contains more absolute *BS* than most I've run across. Some totally ridiculous. :shakehead

I've owned two Surefires (6P and 9P) since about 1990 and now have a U2 in addition (and may order an A2). I also have 3 Fenix (Feni??) in use... a P2D, L1T, and wife's P1. I also have a number of other quality lights, one on order from Milky, and have bought a number of lights for friends and relatives. I have also read a tremendous amount of information on flashlights, both on this forum and elsewhere.

I hate to break this to a very few who haven't figured it out, but... although flashlights represent a surprisingly high level of technology, and are quite fascinating in their own way... they're ALL just tools. None are magical implements from the Gods, and there's no more magic in a SureFire than a Fenix. Both represent tools built to a particular philosophy, to a particular quality level, and price point (which may or may not truly represent the overall quality level of a particular light). I have also owned many, many handguns over the last 50 some odd years... and they're a very similar product in many ways. And... no, you do not always get what you pay for... 

Folks are free to delve into the world of flashlights to whatever extent they wish, choose whatever lights they wish for their own purposes and preferences, using whatever criteria they wish. Their choices in those areas don't make them superior beings or inferior beings, based on those choices. As has been stated, some 'blind brand devotion' folks need to get a life, and make practical use of their brain. 

Reading through this thread reveals a majority of intelligent, practical thinking responses... along with a few spots of 'mean sprited', total mental 'fogginess' (to put it mildly). It's really nice to know from the majority of intelligent posts that the choice of a favorite brand of flashlight doesn't necessarily have to make you stupid. :wave:

Interesting and fun read... Quinn


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## adamr999 (Jun 18, 2007)

I agree that comparing two totally different lights is pointless, you will never come to a conclusion. 

Also, don't compare prices of a light made in America to one made in China because manufacture in America is a substantial difference.


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## BSBG (Jun 18, 2007)

I probably shouldn't bother,but I think both of them have their place. As a day to day EDC light, the Fenix has a lot of advantages as mentioned. No question the SF is better made and more instinctive with the proper switch, but for finding the bathroom in a hotel room a P3D on low is the ticket.


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## TigerhawkT3 (Jun 18, 2007)

greenstuffs said:


> I'm glad you are a happy owner now i know you love your P3D anything else from the Fenix family you want to add? Again you see you are bringing a Fenix comparison over a Surefire again. Its just pointless. Things like oh my beam is ringy, crap my LED is not centered, there is dust in the reflector and the Beam is awful green can only come from lights like Fenix again they cost less for a reason.


Have you heard of all those SF owners who had their clickies break (or some other failure), sent their lights in for warranty, and then (eventually) getting back a light with junk inside the sealed head, weird tint, or (in the case of the LuxV lights) donut holes? I do agree that the new XR-E Fenix lights have ringy, slightly splotchy beams (still useful, though).

Know what's really weird? The only SF product I own is an FM34, and yet I don't bat an eye reading about the A19, MNxx, 6P, E2L... I can hardly believe that all that alphabet soup makes sense to me even when I have so little experience with the stuff.


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## LEDcandle (Jun 18, 2007)

I am not a brand loyalist but the "You get what you paid for" and "Cannot compare american goods to chinese goods" are precisely what Fenix fans are trying to dispute. For a substantially lesser price, they find something as useful, or more useful than what they consider an overpriced light (ie SF). Also to some, the quality is comparable. 

Of course there are minor differences like batt type, beam pattern, clickie, twisty, momentary etc.. but don't forget these are all flashlights fundamentally. They provide light when you need it. The rest of the interfacing issues are mostly irritants and something you can easily get used to. 

I personally have had no issues with my Fenixes and have had some problems with my SFs, including :-

1) Intermittent tailcap (just the simple original tailcap that comes with 6P/Z2, forgot the model) - Such a simple design, just twist for on, press for momentary and the bloody thing doesn't turn on 30% of the time on momentary. The button-feel is lousy and probaby the round plate isn't making full contact. I'm not in the States so it's gonna be a hassle getting this returned. 

2) Notches don't align - Had a 6P that doesn't align with its tailcap as in when the 2 notches are aligned, the light is permanent on, instead of the usual 1/4 past the notch for permanent on. 

3) Cord lock disintegrated - I know the cord locks are probably some generic OEM item, but well, its a SF lanyard, so if something happens, its under SF responsibility. Just pressing on it awhile and shifting the position and BAM! the whole thing splits apart and splinters in different directions (due to the spring pressure). Though small pieces of plastic, they have sharp edges, and if one got into your eye, all your lights will only be 50% as bright as before. 

Will I stop buying SF? Well, no. I have proper working ones as well and they are great for what they do. Is SF junk because of these issues? Well no, probably failed QC and batch errors. 

So on the same note, just because a Fenix has a bad beam or some minor flaws, doesn't mean the whole brand is junk. In fact for its price, I would say they are more than bang for buck (although we all know deep inside they can be cheaper). 

I love both for what they are, and I really hate to see the immature bashing that's going on around here


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## Rob187 (Jun 18, 2007)

My 2 cents is this:

I don't have a brand loyalty - I like lights from lots of different manufacturers. What I do like is design, engineering and build quality. Reliability is the first priority with my lights.

I have never had a problem with either my Surefire 9Z or my U2. My Fenix P1D CE is going back to the retailer for a new tailcap following the complete malfunction of its threads to the point the head will come off without being unscrewed. My L2P is a lemon with a flickering LED from a tailcap problem. Only my L2T is without issue.

I use my lights professionally as well as collecting them as a hobby.

I don't carry a Fenix at work - I carry a Surefire.


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## sims2k (Jun 19, 2007)

Just my 2 cents here. I own both brand plus Magleds, Inovas, Brinkmans and Wiseled Tactical. And after all the excitement of getting new lights .. I find myself using just the Fenix L2DCE and Surefire L2 every night at work. For armed security I use the Inova T3 for that. These two lights stays in my laptop carry bag all the time. Can't wait to see what lights will takes place of this two in a month or two.



Windscale said:


> As stated earlier, I am not a SF Kicker. I own both and many other brands as well.
> 
> Those suffering from brand loyality blindness and are so un- or under-educated so as to be able to come up with logical and objective statements should put your prejudices aside for the time being (nomatter which camp you belong to) and start thinking rationally.
> 
> I am also eager to see what SF will turn up with next month.


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## woodrow (Jun 19, 2007)

I still have my old e2e. It sits in my bathroom. I cary a LP M3, and a D-mini. I do not miss any of the 8 sf incans I have had or the hundred's if not thousand plus dollars of 123a primaries I have put into them in my life. 

People who prefer leds orver incans, are not stupid, and a fenix is no more of a toy than a e2. Neither would be my first choice to clear a house, but I would not consider a M6 or AE power light to be the ideal light try to edc on a bright summer day when going to a movie at 2pm.

Flashlights are tubes of aluminum, with a spring and usually some glass. Although reading some of the posts here would almost make me believe that SF' also puts some kind of lsd on their battery tubes so some of their owners get the delusions that their lights are somehow magic and supernatural.

Enjoy your Fenix. If you ever miss your e2e, I will gladly trade you mine for it. But then I would feel bad, because you would have just been taken advantage of.


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## fieldops (Jun 19, 2007)

I also own both brands....hell, I own too many damn lights.....or so the family says . I understand the various passions for lights we love, but it's a bit disappointing to have it come down to the bickering we have seen in this thread. Remember folks, that it was not all that long ago that we had virtually no real choices in illumination tools. PR non gas filled incans were all we had. The quality had a lot to be desired on many of these lights. I ,for one, am tickled pink about the number of choices we have today....it's a dream. More choices of lights are GOOD. Few number of choices are BAD. I just want to take this opportunity to thank all of the flashlight makers for giving us the incredible variety of lights to choose from. Thanks also to the modder's, experimenters and custom light makers here on CPF. It is all of these folks who make our life brighter....pun intended :bow: 

Less bickering......more lights


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## vic2367 (Jun 19, 2007)

Less bickering......more lights ,,,,agree 100 %


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## skyline_man (Jun 19, 2007)

> Although reading some of the posts here would almost make me believe that SF' also puts some kind of lsd on their battery tubes so some of their owners get the delusions that their lights are somehow magic and supernatural.



Hahaha...good stuff! Well for the price that they are selling for - one would expect SF's to have LSD and turbo charging as well!! But then again, that wouldn't work too well cos they can't even get a simple mechanical clicky switch to work properly!!

And this from Greenstuffs


> The old saying its more true than ever YOU GET WHAT YOU PAID FOR



Boy, i wish there would be more people like you in the world! That way, i can open a magic potion shop and sell 'intellegent' potions, which promises to increase one's intelligence - and charge $50 grand for it. And it'll be selling like hot cakes cos, like you said " YOU GET WHAT YOU PAID FOR" :laughing:

One final thought, looking at pics of the new Surefire Titan - a $500 light, i noticed that there's no knurling to keep it from slipping out of ur hands. But guess what? No criticisms from anyone! Turn to a $50 Fenix P2D CE or P3D CE - people are complaining that there isn't enough knurling on them left right and center!
Talk about double standards!!!


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## LEDcandle (Jun 19, 2007)

skyline_man said:


> Hahaha...good stuff! Well for the price that they are selling for - one would expect SF's to have LSD and turbo charging as well!!



Haha.. I believe he meant Lysergic acid diethylamide, not Limited Slip Differential


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## Rob187 (Jun 19, 2007)

LEDcandle said:


> Haha.. I believe he meant Lysergic acid diethylamide, not Limited Slip Differential



Now that _is_ funny!


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## greenstuffs (Jun 19, 2007)

Totally irrelevant, quality always comes with a price. If you don't get that you are probably in denial. SF titan is not out yet people have not seen its functionality if the thing is hard to twist then it might be criticism towards the body i have yet to see a titanium flashlight with knurling. 
You are blinded by the brightness of your LED flashlights because you don't see anything beyond the brightness. 




skyline_man said:


> Hahaha...good stuff! Well for the price that they are selling for - one would expect SF's to have LSD and turbo charging as well!! But then again, that wouldn't work too well cos they can't even get a simple mechanical clicky switch to work properly!!
> 
> And this from Greenstuffs
> 
> ...


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## skyline_man (Jun 19, 2007)

Anyway, on a more mature note - i've owned a SF M3 for over 3 years now and for the length of time i've owned it - i reckon that i've only used it for around 10 or 11 battery cycles. 

Don't get me wrong, its a wonderfully good looking, expertly designed and crafted chunk of aluminium but the runtime is shocking! Sure, if ur going to use it once a month for 1 minute than it's okay, but im a person who likes to use my flashlight all the time and believe in the philosophy that if it's a tool - use it. Don't lock it up in a glass cabinet like if its a trophy or piece of jewellery. And frankly, comparing the runtime together with the light output and costs of cr123's - i just couldn't justify wasting any more money on batteries to run this thing. It's like an old school fuel guzzling v8 car! And in this new age with all the high tech cree LEDs out there - it deosn't take Einstein to figure out that LED is the way to go.
I will never go back to Incandescents. It's like going back to driving ur old man's v8 when all ur friends are driving around in turbo charged porshes and Japanese cars.
And the thing that annoys me is that SF doesn't like to keep up with technology - even though they pride themselves on being technologically advanced, and yet can still justify charging so much for a piece of aluminium.


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## adamr999 (Jun 19, 2007)

skyline_man said:


> Anyway, on a more mature note - i've owned a SF M3 for over 3 years now and for the length of time i've owned it - i reckon that i've only used it for around 10 or 11 battery cycles.
> 
> Don't get me wrong, its a wonderfully good looking, expertly designed and crafted chunk of aluminium but the runtime is shocking! Sure, if ur going to use it once a month for 1 minute than it's okay, but im a person who likes to use my flashlight all the time and believe in the philosophy that if it's a tool - use it. Don't lock it up in a glass cabinet like if its a trophy or piece of jewellery. And frankly, comparing the runtime together with the light output and costs of cr123's - i just couldn't justify wasting any more money on batteries to run this thing. It's like an old school fuel guzzling v8 car! And in this new age with all the high tech cree LEDs out there - it deosn't take Einstein to figure out that LED is the way to go.
> I will never go back to Incandescents. It's like going back to driving ur old man's v8 when all ur friends are driving around in turbo charged porshes and Japanese cars.
> And the thing that annoys me is that SF doesn't like to keep up with technology - even though they pride themselves on being technologically advanced, and yet can still justify charging so much for a piece of aluminium.




I don't understand why you would spend over $250 on a flashlight and complain about battery life. When you buy a bright light you should be aware that battery life will be compromised.

Can a single LED push out 250 lumens? Large amounts of light don't come without shorter battery life and either HID or incandescent technology.

By the way, fast and powerful cars do burn a lot of fuel and most Japanese cars are slow.


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## greenstuffs (Jun 19, 2007)

Why is that you spend $200 on a flashlight and can't bring yourself to use it? I do use all my lights and EDC a Ti PD-S as well as a Sebenza Micarta classic. I'm not afraid of getting them scratched. M3 might be overkill for most tasks more Portable surefire's are no. I think surefire is not a fair comparison for Fenix a closer manufacturer is more like novatac HDS they make multilevel flashlights they exceed over a Fenix in almost all aspects. 




skyline_man said:


> Anyway, on a more mature note - i've owned a SF M3 for over 3 years now and for the length of time i've owned it - i reckon that i've only used it for around 10 or 11 battery cycles.
> 
> Don't get me wrong, its a wonderfully good looking, expertly designed and crafted chunk of aluminium but the runtime is shocking! Sure, if ur going to use it once a month for 1 minute than it's okay, but im a person who likes to use my flashlight all the time and believe in the philosophy that if it's a tool - use it. Don't lock it up in a glass cabinet like if its a trophy or piece of jewellery. And frankly, comparing the runtime together with the light output and costs of cr123's - i just couldn't justify wasting any more money on batteries to run this thing. It's like an old school fuel guzzling v8 car! And in this new age with all the high tech cree LEDs out there - it deosn't take Einstein to figure out that LED is the way to go.
> I will never go back to Incandescents. It's like going back to driving ur old man's v8 when all ur friends are driving around in turbo charged porshes and Japanese cars.
> And the thing that annoys me is that SF doesn't like to keep up with technology - even though they pride themselves on being technologically advanced, and yet can still justify charging so much for a piece of aluminium.


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## skyline_man (Jun 19, 2007)

No, an LED cannot put out as much light as my M3 with the MN11 bulb - but you have to ask urself, do you need it to be that bright for normal daily activities? Do you need a meat cleaver to cut a tomato, do you need a elephant gun to kill a rabbit, do you need a cement truck to make 1 cubic meter of concrete? 
Is it going to kill you if ur light is only 170lumens instead of 250 in normal situations? Sure, it's always going to be better to have more light, but there are times when i want less light such as reading a map. And with the efficiency, brightness and durability of LED's and together with their low and high modes, i can't see how incandescents can be better. 
It's like driving a 1000hp car on the streets - sure it's powerful, but ur not going to get from A to 
B any faster than a 200hp car. And also the driveability, efficiency, reliability and maintenance cost really sucks as well!


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## [email protected] Messenger (Jun 19, 2007)

Although I only own fenix lights thus far, I have handled surefires in the past. IMHO, they are all good, just different *( quote from spyderco CEO who's name escapes me). Fenix lights are quality tools for their price. They provide an incredible amount of light and have great regulation and use common batteries (at least most of them). Surefires are also great tools, great brightness, runtime, and compared to fenix, more expensive production methods, hence the higher price. They both however have their own cons, e.g. fenix's finish on their lights, and surefire's pricepoint which may be a deterrent (i.e. I would not like to lose a $300 plus light, and besides, why are we even bashing each other? THE LIGHTS AREN'T EVEN COMPARABLE, SUREFIRES ARE COMPLETELY DIFFERENT FROM FENIXES WHEN IT COMES TO FEATURES AND THE MARKET THEY ARE CATERING TO). Now before you bash my comments I would just like to point out that I have no brand loyalty. If it serves my purpose, then I will get it. To each their own.

Cheers


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## jml90 (Jun 19, 2007)

enLIGHTenment said:


> No forward clickie and no direct mode access? Sorry, but that's a toy, not a serious light. SF lights are highly overpriced, but unlike Fenix's offerings, they're not toys.



I don't get the love for forward clickys. I find it much easier to click the tailcap with my thumb, now a middle clicky I'd like that.


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## adamr999 (Jun 19, 2007)

skyline_man said:


> No, an LED cannot put out as much light as my M3 with the MN11 bulb - but you have to ask urself, do you need it to be that bright for normal daily activities? Do you need a meat cleaver to cut a tomato, do you need a elephant gun to kill a rabbit, do you need a cement truck to make 1 cubic meter of concrete?
> Is it going to kill you if ur light is only 170lumens instead of 250 in normal situations? Sure, it's always going to be better to have more light, but there are times when i want less light such as reading a map. And with the efficiency, brightness and durability of LED's and together with their low and high modes, i can't see how incandescents can be better.
> It's like driving a 1000hp car on the streets - sure it's powerful, but ur not going to get from A to
> B any faster than a 200hp car. And also the driveability, efficiency, reliability and maintenance cost really sucks as well!



If your LED were to fail could you repair it in the field or even at home? 

Incandescent and LED technologies both have their places and one is not better than the other. 

I hope you don't think your Fenix is putting 170 lumens out the front.


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## yellow (Jun 19, 2007)

*same post as in the "Fenix - that good ..." tread*

I will mark this and the other tread and will post links into the one future tread, dealing with that "supergreat and powerful" SF MULTIemitter, that they will build when their Cree models received positive talk but the critic that they _are too dim_

Suddenly everyone will have "known from the beginning", that 

leds can be bright
perfect in- and outdoors
but need to be multiemitter to give the requested output

I type now, that this light will be a three emitter setup and would say "within one year from now on" (till summer 08)


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## Outdoors Fanatic (Jun 19, 2007)

firefly99 said:


> +1
> Well said.
> 
> I do notice a lot of people buying a Fenix because they said Surefire use expensive CR123. The strange thing is after they bough their Fenix which use AA or AAA cells, they get the CR123 body tube for the option to use CR123. This show that these people actually want a CR123 light but cannot afford and settle a lesser purchase.



+1
Well said


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## Outdoors Fanatic (Jun 19, 2007)

firefly99 said:


> +1
> Well said.
> 
> I do notice a lot of people buying a Fenix because they said Surefire use expensive CR123. The strange thing is after they bough their Fenix which use AA or AAA cells, they get the CR123 body tube for the option to use CR123. This show that these people actually want a CR123 light but cannot afford and settle a lesser purchase.



HAahah! Such irony...


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## yellow (Jun 19, 2007)

let aside led and multilevel,

isnt it also a size choice?
the Fenix offers shorter size (with that CR123 body) and a single diameter head and body - better to put into pocket.
(btw: I see no reason why strike bezels and such are used in most any light available, but just few that are plain _sleek_)

I have searched very long to find something similar as the Fenix' to act as a host for the 18650/Creed/Flupiced mod and found it in an Inova T1 (and also have a 6P modded the same. Its not that few mms in lenght I dont like, its the wider head)


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## StinkyButler (Jun 19, 2007)

firefly99 said:


> I do notice a lot of people buying a Fenix because they said Surefire use expensive CR123. The strange thing is after they bough their Fenix which use AA or AAA cells, they get the CR123 body tube for the option to use CR123. This show that these people actually want a CR123 light but cannot afford and settle a lesser purchase.


 
I personally don't see the issue with buying hardware to make 2 or more flashlight configurations that happen to be more efficient, more affordable, and brighter than a single SureFire. Seems like a smart choice to me.

I could have bought a SureFire or 3 if I wanted to, but I chose Fenix at the time of my purchase instead because of what they have to offer. Why buy 4 different lights when I can get one that does the job of 4? Of course, my requirements are just that, my requirements. Others have different requirements and buy different lights to meet them. I still just don't see the need to try to insult or make purchasers of other brands feel inferior or financially inadequate. I'm sure the people who got Fenix lights don't feel like they settled. They probably think their Fenix lights rock, because they pretty much do.


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## adamr999 (Jun 19, 2007)

firefly99 said:


> I do notice a lot of people buying a Fenix because they said Surefire use expensive CR123. The strange thing is after they bough their Fenix which use AA or AAA cells, they get the CR123 body tube for the option to use CR123. This show that these people actually want a CR123 light but cannot afford and settle a lesser purchase.



My response is directed to those people who thought the above statement was funny. 

Would it be funny if I buy a 6P and a cell extender because I couldn't afford a 9P? 
Or is it just funny when people do it with Fenix lights?

I'm sure there are a few people on this site that buy accessories for their lights, I do.


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## Ken1022 (Jun 19, 2007)

Fenix uses the Cree. Surefire will soon. Then they should be evenly matched in performance. Surfire wins in the sexy body department...right now. 

Most guy`s love a woman with a great body...they can be pricey though. But if she doesn`t perform...cooking, cleaning, earning $$$ or some thing...they will go with one that, while not eye candy to look at, has better rounded performance and is more affordable. Those with enough money don`t care though...they can go for the looks...and can hire a maid.

Now if we combine both...peformance and looks...it comes down to affordablity and ones taste. Steak or lobster. 

Think I`ll stop this post now...reading back over it...it doesn`t make a great deal of sense. Bye


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## nerdgineer (Jun 19, 2007)

Uh...weren't we talking about flashlights?...:huh:


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## QuinnK (Jun 19, 2007)

_show that these people actually want a CR123 light but cannot afford and settle a lesser purchase.

_I've read more than once the comment that Fenix users really want SF but can't afford them. I have to say, that's one of the more ludicrous statements on this thread (and that's saying a lot). Do the folks saying that ever actually read (and understand) the stuff that's posted on the forums. All sorts of custom lights and mods being bought, collections worth large amounts of money, etc... and the assumption is that 'if you own a Fenix, you just can't afford a SF?' Get real... many lights are bought by choice, not by lack of purchasing power. Some are bought because of lack of funds (and what's wrong with that?), many are bought by choice. What makes anyone else think they know who's buying whatever for which reasons? :tinfoil: I can afford any handheld flashlight you are likely to come up with, and I have 3 Fenix in use (and one on order). How does anyone come up with idiocy like that? Nothing personal, just wondering. 

The whole thing boggles the mind anyway. For crying out loud, why the heck does anyone think it's any of their concern what other folks are choosing to buy for whatever reasons?... and why so involved in it? :thinking: Having your own preferences and opinions, and stating those is good, can help others decide what they want to do... but actually being offended by what other folks decide to buy, and making offensive comments as to their choices and reasons?.. as a few posters are? Hate to say it, but that's dumb. Quit embarrassing yourselves.  Do some of you take the time to read and think about what you're posting?... and realize the impression you're making on a public forum? Geez... :green:

Everyone has a right to make up their own mind what they wish to purchase, and it's really no one else's concern what it is and why they chose it, unasked. As has already been stated... some folks really need to get a life, and pay more attention to it than the lives other folks are living.

Again, nothing personal... JMHO, of course... 

I'm not complaining... actually, I'm enjoying the thread, downright laughable in areas.

Take care... Quinn


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## BB (Jun 19, 2007)

I have a few small CR123 LED lights before I purchased the Fenix P3D-CE... I stayed away from SureFire because I wanted something more reliable :duck: and cheaper to run...

More reliable, in terms of batteries that lasted more than an hour or so (or twenty minutes and 3xCR123 batteries in one case), and lamp assemblies that lasted more than 10-20 hours--and did not break on falling off a table.

Small LED lights did that (long runtime and reliable) and an HID light for the brighter hand carry reliable light (1,000 hour bulb, ~500 lumen on 3-4 hours with 8x C cells) that is truly a dive light (really waterproof).

I accept that many folks about there want/need SureFire lights--and more power to them. Quality and quantity of light from a small light is nice--but just not my only criteria.

I certainly can afford multiple SureFire lights, batteries, and replacement lamps--but they sure required a lot of $$$ and supplies to keep running any length of time. Just was not an interest to me at all. If I wanted a bright light, a 12 VDC spotlight plugged into my truck worked just fine.

Just happens that Fenix made a light that hit my sweet spot (long life battery, LED, and adjustable output--that it was BRIGHT! and efficient--for a small light--as just a happy coincidence).

-Bill


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## TigerhawkT3 (Jun 19, 2007)

jml90 said:


> I don't get the love for forward clickys. I find it much easier to click the tailcap with my thumb, now a middle clicky I'd like that.


The "forward" doesn't indicate the switch location, it indicates its behavior. A forward clickie can be pushed slightly for momentary on, or pressed fully and released to click it on for constant. A reverse clickie must be fully pressed and released to click it on, and THEN you can gently tap the switch to momentarily turn it off.

Forward clickies:
-Mags
-Brinkmann Maxfire LX
-Inova Radiant
-ProPoly
-VB-16
-Some SFs

Reverse clickies:
-Huntlight
-Fenix
-Lumapower (for now)
-Lots of "cheap" lights

And then there's the tactical twistie, which you press as hard as you want for momentary on, and twist (tighten) for constant on.
-Some SFs
-Dorcy AAA
-SL TL-2 and TL-3
-D-Mini (and probably other LPs)
-Other "tactical" lights

Some lights don't use any of these three switch categories, such as Eternalights (membrane switches), Photon Freedoms (and other "intelligent UI" lights), the Heliotek (magnetic reed switch), and the Gladius (magnetic multi-channel oddity).


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## woodrow (Jun 20, 2007)

adamr999 said:


> I don't understand why you would spend over $250 on a flashlight and complain about battery life. When you buy a bright light you should be aware that battery life will be compromised.
> 
> Can a single LED push out 250 lumens? Large amounts of light don't come without shorter battery life and either HID or incandescent technology.
> 
> By the way, fast and powerful cars do burn a lot of fuel and most Japanese cars are slow.


 
As someone who also had a M3 for some years, I can totally relate. I put hundreds of dollars of 123'a into it. It did not help that when I bought it, I thought I would use the 125 luman bulb more than the 225. But I just hated the 125 luman bulb's beam. AW came out with 17500's, but they would not run the brighter bulb. So, like a lot of others, I did not use it nearly as much as I thought I would. (still a few hours a month though)

Also, as to the car analogy.... yes, corvetts and vipers use a lot of gas, but go pretty fast. A 1982 Buick V8 may use a lot of gas... but it is not usually faster than a 2007 Honda, getting 2-3 times the gas milage. Not all incans are M6's. A Fenix P3D kills a e2e in output, is no larger in size, and is more effecient...and you do not have to replace bulbs.... 

I am sure some farmers in the late 1800's kept wiping their bottoms with the SEARS catalog, when toilet paper came out as well. Dosen't mean it was the better decision.


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## vic2367 (Jun 20, 2007)

pics
pics
pics :twothumbs


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## jbosman1013 (Jun 20, 2007)

I do not own any fenix lights but have refered them to friends and was very impressed by them. I do think every light has its place and IMO fenix and surefire are in two different places. I will always carry my SF but would really like to have a few fenix lights.


It almost seemes like SF owners are mad about paying top dollar when they could have got a fenix I personally don't see the issue they are both good lights. just my 2 cents


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## Braddah_Bill (Jun 20, 2007)

The quote below says everything for me. I like my Fenix AND Surefire lights and while my Fenix lights may ride in my belt holster.......My E2e/Z-52 and Inova X5 are ALWAYS in my fanny pack. The lights I choose to carry complement each other as each one fills a different need. 




jbosman1013 said:


> I personally don't see the issue they are both good lights.




Braddah_Bill


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## dolbyyy (Jun 20, 2007)

I think Fenix and Surefire are both very useful flashlight brands (as many others). I try to get the best from each and, honestly, since I get always with me both a Surefire A2 and a Fenix P1D-CE or the P3D (in my little shoulder bag), I have always been able to face any kind of situation where I needed light, indoor or outdoor. Having them always with me I feel more relaxed because I know that I can always trust on them for almost any situation where I could need light. So at the moment, for my personal needs, I couldn't wish anything better in terms of flashlights.:twothumbs

Bye
Robby


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## firefly99 (Jun 20, 2007)

firefly99 said:


> I do notice a lot of people buying a Fenix because they said Surefire use expensive CR123. The strange thing is after they bough their Fenix which use AA or AAA cells, they get the CR123 body tube for the option to use CR123. This show that these people actually want a CR123 light but cannot afford and settle a lesser purchase.



The above statement is just my personal observation of what other posters had posted on this public forum that they have no desire for a CR123 light and they are buying a AA light. I find it ironic that after they got the AA light, they will get CR123 body and start using CR123 cells. I cannot help but to come to a conclusion that is offensive to some folks here.

I am comfortable with who I am and what I have. There is no need for me to justify anything to anyone. I am totally cool about how other people spend their money or what they purchase. 



QuinnK said:


> I have 3 Fenix in use (and one on order). How does anyone come up with idiocy like that?



Getting all hot under the collar and personal attack is a sign of weakness. 

Ok, so you have 4 Fenix light, a Fenix user. That's fine with me, I don't cares what light you use or who you are or how you spend your resources.

To answer your question, surfing the CPF forum and fenix friends.

Nothing personal.


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## skyline_man (Jun 20, 2007)

Reading this thread, it reminded me about this survey they once did in Australia about women and big 4wd cars. You see, they were interested to find out why the majority of big 4wd owners were women, and why most of these 4wd's have never set tread on a grain of dirt let alone gone out in the bush, ie they were never used for the purpose that they were made for. Instead, these 4wd's were driven in town, around suburbs, to pick up the kids etc.
Anyway, the reasoning was that these women felt more safer in the 4wd - because of it's size. Size matters to them. They felt more comfortable and confident driving an expensive, big and inefficient 4wd. They were afraid that if they drove something more smaller, more economical, more suitable for the tasks that they are using it for, then other drivers will pick on them. They used their 4wd to intimidate other drivers!

Perhaps these brand loyal SF lovers - the ones who can't see past the label of their SF lights, must have an issue with size also???


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## greenstuffs (Jun 20, 2007)

Yeah thats me wigging out my M6 deathray to overpower your tiny Fenix winnie YOUR STROBE IS USELESS AGAINST MY SHEER POWER better turn on your SOS. :nana: Hahaha skyline_man you made my day thx very much. 



skyline_man said:


> Reading this thread, it reminded me about this survey they once did in Australia about women and big 4wd cars. You see, they were interested to find out why the majority of big 4wd owners were women, and why most of these 4wd's have never set tread on a grain of dirt let alone gone out in the bush, ie they were never used for the purpose that they were made for. Instead, these 4wd's were driven in town, around suburbs, to pick up the kids etc.
> Anyway, the reasoning was that these women felt more safer in the 4wd - because of it's size. Size matters to them. They felt more comfortable and confident driving an expensive, big and inefficient 4wd. They were afraid that if they drove something more smaller, more economical, more suitable for the tasks that they are using it for, then other drivers will pick on them. They used their 4wd to intimidate other drivers!
> 
> Perhaps these brand loyal SF lovers - the ones who can't see past the label of their SF lights, must have an issue with size also???


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## jml90 (Jun 20, 2007)

TigerhawkT3 said:


> The "forward" doesn't indicate the switch location, it indicates its behavior. A forward clickie can be pushed slightly for momentary on, or pressed fully and released to click it on for constant. A reverse clickie must be fully pressed and released to click it on, and THEN you can gently tap the switch to momentarily turn it off.
> 
> Forward clickies:
> -Mags
> ...



Ohh me no like reverse clicky. Time to jump on the bandwagon


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## adamr999 (Jun 20, 2007)

skyline_man said:


> Perhaps these brand loyal SF lovers - the ones who can't see past the label of their SF lights, must have an issue with size also???



I'm glad you think your joke is funny.


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## LEDcandle (Jun 20, 2007)

jml90 said:


> Ohh me no like reverse clicky. Time to jump on the bandwagon



Btw, not that I like reverse clickies, but I was wondering, if multi-mode lights used forward clickies, would there be a problem changing modes while the light is on? 

Since forward clickies can have a momentary while the light is OFF, I believe they do nothing when half pressed while the light is ON, thus rendering the light unable to change modes easily? You'd probably need to full press on and off to changes modes instead of light tapping. 

Not wanting the light to have modes at all is a separate issue; let's leave that out for another day


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## Nitro (Jun 20, 2007)

LEDcandle said:


> Btw, not that I like reverse clickies, but I was wondering, if multi-mode lights used forward clickies, would there be a problem changing modes while the light is on?
> 
> Since forward clickies can have a momentary while the light is OFF, I believe they do nothing when half pressed while the light is ON, thus rendering the light unable to change modes easily? You'd probably need to full press on and off to changes modes instead of light tapping.
> 
> Not wanting the light to have modes at all is a separate issue; let's leave that out for another day



The P2D/P3D allows you to change modes while the light is on by tapping the button (forward clicky half press).


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## 65535 (Jun 20, 2007)

get yourself a P3D machine the head down to fit inside the bezel of the e2E and you get yourself a P3D in a surefire.


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## cave dave (Jun 20, 2007)

I have a P1D with leef body (forward clicky) and a L2D (reverse clicky). The reverse clicky is easier to change modes with. So for a multi mode light a reverse clicky may actually be better under certain circumstances.

PS I sold my Surefire E2e on BST for less than I paid for the P1D with leef body. And I would do it again. The Fenix/Leef is brighter, smaller, and runs longer on a single battery, and the McClicky is great as long as you don't want to change modes while its on.

And there must be a few people willing to pay $180 for this Fenix!


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## cave dave (Jun 20, 2007)

Frankly though, I'd rather have an L1T UI with a SSC P4, OP reflector and a forward clicky. 2 stages, no fluff!


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## Outdoors Fanatic (Jun 20, 2007)

LEDcandle said:


> Btw, not that I like reverse clickies, but I was wondering, if multi-mode lights used forward clickies, would there be a problem changing modes while the light is on?
> 
> Since forward clickies can have a momentary while the light is OFF, I believe they do nothing when half pressed while the light is ON, thus rendering the light unable to change modes easily? You'd probably need to full press on and off to changes modes instead of light tapping.
> 
> Not wanting the light to have modes at all is a separate issue; let's leave that out for another day


Do like SureFire: use a truly intelligent-- yet simple interface like in the L2 and A2 Aviator. These lights have the best of the both worlds.


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## QuinnK (Jun 21, 2007)

firefly99 said:


> The above statement is just my personal observation of what other posters had posted on this public forum that they have no desire for a CR123 light and they are buying a AA light. I find it ironic that after they got the AA light, they will get CR123 body and start using CR123 cells. I cannot help but to come to a conclusion that is offensive to some folks here.
> 
> I am comfortable with who I am and what I have. There is no need for me to justify anything to anyone. I am totally cool about how other people spend their money or what they purchase.
> 
> ...



*LOL*... Perhaps you should re-read my post. I'm sorry if I gave you the impression I was 'hot under the collar', I was and am far from that, or making a personal attack... that was not the intention. I was simply responding to the various statements by whoever that indicated folks buy Fenix because they can't afford what they really want, a SF. If the term 'idiocy' indicates personal attack and weakness to you (can't have that), then I might better say how do folks come up with junk like that? (basically, that's just a question using a common term). It clearly makes no sense as a conclusion that can be supported, and I responded to that... not the battery thing, flashlight users can change their minds at will concerning that sort of thing, with nothing to do with what they can or can't afford.

My complete owner's statement was not just owning Fenix... I earlier stated I had other lights, including SF, and can afford what I want... and by choice own some Fenix, not because I can't afford SF.

*"I am comfortable with who I am and what I have. There is no need for me to justify anything to anyone. I am totally cool about how other people spend their money or what they purchase."
*_*
"That's fine with me, I don't cares what light you use or who you are or how you spend your resources."*

_Actually, that's sort of the very point I was making. I would think that's more or less the attitude that would be desirable to have... but I wouldn't think anyone who really feels that way would spend time criticizing and making unpleasant and insulting comments about other flashlight users in those very areas, as a few have done on this thread.

If you do feel as you've stated, then I wouldn't think anything I've said would apply to you... :thumbsup:

Take care... Quinn


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## QuinnK (Jun 21, 2007)

Nitro said:


> The P2D/P3D allows you to change modes while the light is on by tapping the button (forward clicky half press).



I thought that was a reverse clicky half press??

Quinn


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## firefly99 (Jun 21, 2007)

QuinnK said:


> whoever that indicated folks buy Fenix because they can't afford what they really want, a SF


Of course, there are people who could afford either brand.

It is a fact of life, the majority of population have Champagne taste but beer budget. I would love a Porsche but could only afford a normal European car.



QuinnK said:


> I wouldn't think anyone who really feels that way would spend time criticizing and making unpleasant and insulting comments about other flashlight users



For a flashaholic, part of fun is buying a flashlight and get parts to upgrade it. This is very normal activity which I engage in as well. There is nothing wrong if you get a SF 6P then add a A19 because you cannot afford/justify another SF 9P. Nothing funny about upgrading a Fenix too. 

Seriously, I do not care whether you are rich or poor flashaholics or how you spend money or which brand you prefer.

There are people on this forum making public statements that they do not want or need a CR123 based light because CR123 battery are expensive,hard to get, short runtime, cannot justify spending x amount on a flashlight etc. Hence, they are going for a AA based light which they can afford to buy and easy to feed.

I just find it ironic, that these same people after having AA light for a while, decided to go for the CR123 body tube and start using CR123 batteries. All this after giving a different view earlier on the forum.

I had no issue with any of these choices, I respect their decisions and ability to live within their means. But reading these people posts, I get a mental picture of financially challenged wannabes. My unpleasant conclusion never intend to criticize or insult anyone and it was does not required anyone approval or consensus. I am entitled to my 2cents.


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## skyline_man (Jun 21, 2007)

> I just find it ironic, that these same people after having AA light for a while, decided to go for the CR123 body tube and start using CR123 batteries. All this after giving a different view earlier on the forum.



And what's wrong with that? People are entitle to change their mind, no one is perfect. Im sure u are not perfect. Perhaps one day, ul change ur mind about Fenix, and prefer Fenix over SF? No one is going to criticize u. 

What about people with incandescent or Luxeon SF's modding them with CREE drop ins? Are u going to say the same for them as you did for those who mod their Fenix's? If SF is the 'god' of all flashlights, than why does it need to be modded?


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## greenstuffs (Jun 21, 2007)

Just like you buy a skyline and tune it to 1000 HP you don't do it to a Daewoo :shakehead whats up with that should we condemn the owners for wanting extra perfomance? Fenix is a step lower than Surefire as of today with boring pipe designs. Seems like they are made with a huge aluminum rode and all they did is chop it and bore the rod or may be is not even solid aluminum and just from an aluminum pipe. 



skyline_man said:


> And what's wrong with that? People are entitle to change their mind, no one is perfect. Im sure u are not perfect. Perhaps one day, ul change ur mind about Fenix, and prefer Fenix over SF? No one is going to criticize u.
> 
> What about people with incandescent or Luxeon SF's modding them with CREE drop ins? Are u going to say the same for them as you did for those who mod their Fenix's? If SF is the 'god' of all flashlights, than why does it need to be modded?


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## WadeF (Jun 21, 2007)

greenstuffs said:


> Fenix is a step lower than Surefire as of today with boring pipe designs.


 
I happen to like the smooth design of the Fenix lights as they slip right into their holster, or into a pocket. I don't want all those spikes and bumps Surefire loves to throw all over their lights. That's fine for tactical purposes, but I don't need my light for tactical use, just to light things up.


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## firefly99 (Jun 21, 2007)

skyline_man said:


> And what's wrong with that? People are entitle to change their mind


Well nothing wrong, I am not criticizing people changing their mind.

Before you get defensive, why not browse through the last 2~3 years threads on this forum. Take note of who make bashing comment and how they declare they will not be caught with their pant down with such light and track what actions these people had taken. Hopefully, then you will notice the irony.


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## skyline_man (Jun 21, 2007)

I see, and perhaps in 2 to 3 years time when Fenix releases a high quality combat flashlight to rival any SF and at half the price, people like you will be buying them and not be calling them 'toys' anymore? 
And the irony is that some new member decides to look through the library of posts and happens to come across this and they'll be putting u down the same way as you are putting down the Fenix users who are changing from AA to cr123?


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## woodrow (Jun 21, 2007)

Outdoors Fanatic said:


> Do like SureFire: use a truly intelligent-- yet simple interface like in the L2 and A2 Aviator. These lights have the best of the both worlds.


 
I love how so many of these comparisons compare lights costing $55 to lights costing $180+. Does Surefire make great lights...yes, at the $200 and above pricepoints. The M6,M4,M3(maybe),U2,A2,L6 are all great lights. The regular 6,9, and e2 series are not so special. 

As to the AA vs. 123a issue. I wish more lights were like the LP M3, allowing you to use both. Lithium AA's when you need runtime, and RCR123a,s when you want a compact bright light for a short time.

Again, the Chinese are giving many consumers what they have asked for, while the Great American company has been slow to. Why do so many people get irrated at their success. If Surefire made a light that could run on 123a's or AA batts...people would praise it here as revolutionary and snap them up. Come to think of it, if SF would make a rechargable light that didn't use 80's tech nicads, I would snap it up.

In ocean's 13, a comment was made basicly saying, "you guys are classy and I like you...but your analog in a digital world." Between the Chinese Manufactures and SF, which company does the statement apply more to?


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## QuinnK (Jun 21, 2007)

firefly99 said:


> Of course, there are people who could afford either brand.
> 
> It is a fact of life, the majority of population have Champagne taste but beer budget. I would love a Porsche but could only afford a normal European car.
> 
> ...



I don't get the same mental picture from it, but that's ok too... and nothing wrong with disagreement in general. I do though think disagreement on a forum should be kept within certain boundaries.

*My unpleasant conclusion never intend to criticize or insult anyone and it was does not required anyone approval or consensus. I am entitled to my 2cents.
*
I absolutely agree with that (as long as forum rules are followed)... but it also applies, of course, to myself and others responding to it.

Hopefully we've both clarified our general viewpoint and have no disagreement that's of particular importance. 

All the best to you... Quinn


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## adamr999 (Jun 21, 2007)

Can't we all just get along? :grouphug:


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## dandruff (Jun 21, 2007)

Surefires are luxury items. Period.

Do i need a 490bhp Ferrari to drive around town? No. In 99% of situations a Toyota Corolla will be better in almost every PRACTICAL aspect. Ferraris belong on a racing circuit, but it would sure be nice to own and drive one around town.

Do you need a $200 Surefire in your pocket to find your seats in the cinema? No. Surefires belong in warzones, but it would be nice to have one with you even in the middle of a shopping mall.

I don't buy the arguement of Fenixes being of poor quality. Sure, their threads may not be as smooth or whatever but it is the same as saying a Toyota's plastic dashboard is inferior to a leather/carbonfiber Ferrari dash. Money buys you LUXURY, not necessarily practicality or usefulness. Whats more, Surefire have had their fair share of issues as well.

I think what riles the super pro-surefire people is that these cheap china (omg! the shock! the horror! i said the 'C' word!) lights can actually outperform the Surefires. That is the sensitive spot. Its like how Ferrari owners/fans get touchy because their F430s are outperformed by a cheap plastic american car, the Corvette Z06. But the question is, given a choice, which would you rather have? I'd pick the Ferrari everytime. But would I pick a Surefire over another cheaper, brighter, more practical and more feature-rich light? Probably not. 

Others would say yes. It depends on how attached and loyal you are to the brand/image/intangibles. To each his own.

The thread has been a entertaining read! (Btw I am a surefire owner too, but my edc is a Arc AAA-P, im anticipating what surefire comes up with next, i hope to be blown away)


aside...


adamr999 said:


> ...and most Japanese cars are slow.



Really? I am SURE they can build plenty fast cars if they wanted to (NSX?). There is a gentlemen's agreement among the Japanese car makers that their sports cars shouldnt exceed 280bhp. This was to prevent a power war from breaking out. Dont believe me check the specs. Nissan 350z, Mazda RX8, Surbaru WRXs etc. all have around 280hp.


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## adamr999 (Jun 21, 2007)

dandruff said:


> Really? I am SURE they can build plenty fast cars if they wanted to (NSX?). There is a gentlemen's agreement among the Japanese car makers that their sports cars shouldnt exceed 280bhp. This was to prevent a power war from breaking out. Dont believe me check the specs. Nissan 350z, Mazda RX8, Surbaru WRXs etc. all have around 280hp.



Thats so true because the last Toyota Supra released had 276hp in Japan and 320hp in America and the NSX has 270hp. 

Sports car with under 280hp.


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## woodrow (Jun 21, 2007)

Again, I have to laugh at how these threads spin out of control. The origional post was about replacing a e2e with a p3d. Both 2 cell lights. Both under $90.

We have gone to "fighting in the sandbox" sports car comparisons, and Fenix lights are toys compared to sf M6's.

A M6 is a much brighter light than anything Fenix makes. A barnburner HID makes a M6 look pretty silly as well. These things were not being compared here.

The simple fact is that choosing to replace a 2 cell 60 luman (for the first 20 minutes maybe) with a 100 luman light that also has other output levels availible in the same size and weight package might be a pretty smart decesion.

Thats why the detracters who post have to come up with such crazy senerios. What does 280 hp cars vs. ??? 800 hp cars??? have to do with 2 cell edc flashlights.

There was a mint condition SF L2 in the B/S/T section the other day for $120. I was seconds away from buying it because I had always wanted one, but could not justify its price to myself. Then I went to Quickbeam's sight and compared output and runtime #'s---and lengths of the lights. I realized for me the P3d was the better choice. Shorter and brighter and more than 30min of regulation on high. 

I look forward to all of you surefire fans (and possibly becoming one myself again) stating that surefire 2 cell lights are better than any other 2 cell lights made. But until they step up to the plate and decide to play ball, neither any of you or myself can do that. Right now...they are simply outmatched.

I do thank all of you though. You have convinced me to buy my first Fenix.


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## bouncer (Jun 21, 2007)

replaced my e2e with an e2L and an L4 need to get the new kx1 head though


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## Medic_how (Jun 21, 2007)

My first post 

I don't own many flashlights, but as a EMT fenix is perfect for my needs. When I go for a call I have it set on turbo to check around the area for hazards. Then when I have to check the patients pupils, I set the light to low and use the spill beam to see how they react to light. I don't own a SF and I don't plan to get one(not practical for my needs). People need to get a light that fits their needs and stop complaining how another light is no good. My fenix is a tool for me.


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## greenstuffs (Jun 21, 2007)

There is always more in a flashlight than the output and runtime, sure they matter a lot but it does not necessarily influence in the decision of purchasing a flashlight. Like Fenix ergonomics aren't that great or the lack of it, their UI is pretty silly giving users 2 modes which 99% of the cases don't use this and many more. Fenix has not really step up into the plate as far as development, people were asking for more aggressive knurling, better HA or a pocket clip for ages yet all they seem to do is put a new LED everytime they release a flashlight i don't call this innovation may be just little upgrades which most of us with a little research can do. 

Myself as many other surefire owners are flashlight enthusiasts and as such we have a very critical opinion you don't see anyone comparing a McGizmo to a Surefire because its pointless. Only the Fenix owners are there bashing other users about how dumb we are on spending +$200 upwards in a flashlight and i think thats what really make us high end owners really sick. 

I will be the first one to buy a Fenix if they release a flashlight with the improvements mentioned, these are not surefire wannabe improvements but just rather logical which all can benefit. But all they offer now are pipe looking lights i see no reason in getting another one because is the same thing over and over again. 

Go back couple yrs surefire had their mighty 9P but they have released many series like E, M and others. McGizmo have really improved his flashlights, but Fenix seems like they are just there to milk money from users whose only requirements are more lumens, i don't really buy that. The first Fenix does look EXACTLY THE SAME as their latest one.




woodrow said:


> Again, I have to laugh at how these threads spin out of control. The origional post was about replacing a e2e with a p3d. Both 2 cell lights. Both under $90.
> 
> We have gone to "fighting in the sandbox" sports car comparisons, and Fenix lights are toys compared to sf M6's.
> 
> ...


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## BB (Jun 21, 2007)

Med_how,

Welcome to CPF and that was a nice dive into the deep end of the pool.

:twothumbs

I hope to see more of you!

Sincerely,
-Bill


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## zk188 (Jun 21, 2007)

I dont know about you guys but i love my "pipe" lights.


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## QuinnK (Jun 21, 2007)

*Myself as many other surefire owners are flashlight enthusiasts and as such we have a very critical opinion you don't see anyone comparing a McGizmo to a Surefire because its pointless. Only the Fenix owners are there bashing other users about how dumb we are on spending +$200 upwards in a flashlight and i think thats what really make us high end owners really sick.*

That was a quote from #142 above...

Well... I've sort of put various things together, and I do suppose I've finally learned something useful from this thread. SF owners are high end owners who are flashlight enthusiasts with very critical opinions. Fenix owners are apparently lower class wannabe flashlight folks, who are not really flashlight enthusiasts at all... and certainly don't have critical opinions. It seems that, with no real discrimination or useful opinions concerning flashlights (probably couldn't afford anything good anyway, even if they knew better), they spend much of their efforts on making the genuine high end owners sick telling then how dumb they are for spending real money on real tool-type flashlights. :mecry:  

Somehow I kept having the feeling if I read long enough I would eventually get the real inside info on what it's all about. I have to shorten this, I need to see if I can find someone ignorant enough to buy my toy Fenix lights so I can add at least another SF to the ones I have now. I've seen the glorious light, I've been enlightened... I certainly don't want to be identified with all you losers and bashers who actually think you own good useful flashlights. You other Fenix owners need to get with the program and come on up where the air is clean and pure. :twothumbs 

Thanks for the education... Quinn


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## [email protected] Messenger (Jun 21, 2007)

QuinnK said:


> *Myself as many other surefire owners are flashlight enthusiasts and as such we have a very critical opinion you don't see anyone comparing a McGizmo to a Surefire because its pointless. Only the Fenix owners are there bashing other users about how dumb we are on spending +$200 upwards in a flashlight and i think thats what really make us high end owners really sick.*
> 
> Well... I've sort of put various things together, and I do suppose I've finally learned something useful from this thread. SF owners are high end owners who are flashlight enthusiasts with very critical opinions. Fenix owners are apparently lower class wannabe flashlight folks, who are not really flashlight enthusiasts at all... and certainly don't have critical opinions. It seems that, with no real discrimination or useful opinions concerning flashlights (probably couldn't afford anything good anyway, even if they knew better), they spend much of their efforts on making the genuine high end owners sick telling then how dumb they are for spending real money on real tool-type flashlights. :mecry:
> 
> ...


 
No offense, but are you saying that everyone who is not willing to dump $200 on a light for their own reasons are simply wannabe's and that fenix lights are junk that are obsolete to your "godly" surefires? I would have to say that is a bit blunt and over generalizing wouldn't you say? Everyone buys their own lights for their own reasons, enough with this almost fanatical bs ( no offense to those of you who actually made well thought arguments, I am not trying to take sides but I see this comment as somewhat offensive)


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## BB (Jun 22, 2007)

I think Quinn was being a bit sarcastic (at least, I hope he was)--the bold is a quote from "further up" the thread.

Comedy on computer forums & boards is a dangerous business fraught with peril without smilies. 

-Bill


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## nerdgineer (Jun 22, 2007)

BB said:


> ...Comedy on computer forums boards is a dangerous business fraught with peril without smilies...


Yeah. I think this thread needs more smilies all around......:sick2::naughty::laughing:


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## QuinnK (Jun 22, 2007)

Hi Bill...

Yes, that was a quote from above mine... sorry, I added that. Should of just quoted in that case. I agree on the smilies... I just added some. There could have been maybe a touch of sarcasm that just crept in while I wasn't paying attention. 

Quinn


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## QuinnK (Jun 22, 2007)

[email protected] Messenger said:


> No offense, but are you saying that everyone who is not willing to dump $200 on a light for their own reasons are simply wannabe's and that fenix lights are junk that are obsolete to your "godly" surefires? I would have to say that is a bit blunt and over generalizing wouldn't you say? Everyone buys their own lights for their own reasons, enough with this almost fanatical bs ( no offense to those of you who actually made well thought arguments, I am not trying to take sides but I see this comment as somewhat offensive)



Absolutely none taken, the fault was mine if you were misled. The bold was a quote from elsewhere in the thread. In fact, if you thought it was all a serious post by me... I would have to say you gave a remarkably polite and restrained response. You are to be commended, the thread could stand more of that... 

Take care... Quinn


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## BB (Jun 22, 2007)

Oh No! Where is this thread heading now?????

Not the scary :grouphug: emoticon.

-Bill :eeksign:


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## jeremyison05 (Jun 22, 2007)

I think this entire thread has gotten way off topic. Let's be honest, if I want a small light with amazing output i'm going to buy a fenix or something similar from DX. If I want something that could be used as a weapon mount light, surefire might meet the bill. But honestly, I think the self defense argument is lost on either one of these lights. If I want something for self defense i'm going to buy a large mag and turn it into a ROP or mag85. It'll be much brighter than any surefire or fenix, and I won't feel bad about abusing a mag. Even if I bought a surefire for that purpose (a "tactical self defense" light) i wouldn't want to go around hitting people with something that cost me several hundred dollars. I mean honestly, pick up your 6p or A2 and your 3+ cell mag and tell me which one you'd rather hit someone over the head with? Every light has their place.


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## TigerhawkT3 (Jun 22, 2007)

greenstuffs said:


> There is always more in a flashlight than the output and runtime, sure they matter a lot but it does not necessarily influence in the decision of purchasing a flashlight. Like Fenix ergonomics aren't that great or the lack of it, their UI is pretty silly giving users 2 modes which 99% of the cases don't use this and many more.


This is a generalization. I'm sure many people (I'm one of them) find the general/turbo multilevel UI to be quite useful. Perhaps it's silly for YOUR PURPOSES, but it's not an irretrievably bad UI. This happens to be my preferred Fenix UI, as opposed to that on the P1D-CE, which I didn't like. Of course, some Fenix users may find the opposite is true, and that's okay - more power to them.


greenstuffs said:


> Fenix has not really step up into the plate as far as development, people were asking for more aggressive knurling, better HA or a pocket clip for ages


The recent black Fenix lights have improved HA (I've heard), which, though shinier, is reputedly tougher. They include pocket clips on their AAA lights, but not on their AA or CR123A lights (yet).


greenstuffs said:


> yet all they seem to do is put a new LED everytime they release a flashlight


Fortunately, they do use the latest technology to release products with improvements over previous models, such as the XR-E. Speaking of the XR-E, that emitter came out in, what, October '06? Now there's also the SSC P4, Luxeon Rebel, Edison Opto KLC8...


greenstuffs said:


> i don't call this innovation may be just little upgrades which most of us with a little research can do.


So why doesn't SF go ahead and do that if it's so darned easy? I can't believe it's taking them so long to upgrade their emitters.


greenstuffs said:


> Myself as many other surefire owners are flashlight enthusiasts and as such we have a very critical opinion you don't see anyone comparing a McGizmo to a Surefire because its pointless. Only the Fenix owners are there bashing other users about how dumb we are on spending +$200 upwards in a flashlight and i think thats what really make us high end owners really sick.
> 
> I will be the first one to buy a Fenix if they release a flashlight with the improvements mentioned, these are not surefire wannabe improvements but just rather logical which all can benefit. But all they offer now are pipe looking lights i see no reason in getting another one because is the same thing over and over again.
> 
> Go back couple yrs surefire had their mighty 9P but they have released many series like E, M and others. McGizmo have really improved his flashlights, but Fenix seems like they are just there to milk money from users whose only requirements are more lumens, i don't really buy that. The first Fenix does look EXACTLY THE SAME as their latest one.


So it's the outside that counts now? What's wrong with a line of products that have the same outer casing? :thinking: Most computers are like that.

So, there's Fenix, who upgrades lumens, runtime, and UI, but keeps the same body, and there's SF, who keeps the same lumens, runtime, and UI on MANY of their lights (the E2E, E2D, G2, Z2, G2Z, 6P, C2, 6P Defender, and the M2 are all 2-cell incans with the same output and runtime), but changes the body. There's nothing wrong with either of those choices, but there is something wrong with picking one and then bashing the other one. :shakehead

I'm not trying to put you down in any way. I'm trying to show you how your posts insult (many) other CPFers while inflating your own position. This book may be a good read for you and any other SF/Fenix loyalists who feel good when you put down Fenix/SF loyalists with little regard for respect and common courtesy.


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## greenstuffs (Jun 22, 2007)

TigerhawkT3 said:


> This is a generalization. I'm sure many people (I'm one of them) find the general/turbo multilevel UI to be quite useful. Perhaps it's silly for YOUR PURPOSES, but it's not an irretrievably bad UI.


Sure everyone has a different opinion, i'm towards simplicity and reliability



TigerhawkT3 said:


> The recent black Fenix lights have improved HA (I've heard), which, though shinier, is reputedly tougher. They include pocket clips on their AAA lights, but not on their AA or CR123A lights (yet).


Well i'm in no position of telling Fenix future improvements, but if you are so sure about the new upgrades i will buy one. 



TigerhawkT3 said:


> Fortunately, they do use the latest technology to release products with improvements over previous models, such as the XR-E. Speaking of the XR-E, that emitter came out in, what, October '06? Now there's also the SSC P4, Luxeon Rebel, Edison Opto KLC8...


Yeah they did upgrade the emitters right away, but forgot to upgrade the reflector which took what 8 more months since october?



TigerhawkT3 said:


> So why doesn't SF go ahead and do that if it's so darned easy? I can't believe it's taking them so long to upgrade their emitters.So it's the outside that counts now? What's wrong with a line of products that have the same outer casing? :thinking: Most computers are like that.


Bigger manufacturer is harder and before upgrading like Fenix did by just swapping the reflector and calm people's thirst for cree they research more besides of producing for the governemnt. 
I'll buy the computer analogy when the flashlights are meant to sit under my desk for a indefinite period of time, other than that there are aluminum cases, BTX format, new CPU technology. 



TigerhawkT3 said:


> So, there's Fenix, who upgrades lumens, runtime, and UI, but keeps the same body, and there's SF, who keeps the same lumens, runtime, and UI on MANY of their lights (the E2E, E2D, G2, Z2, G2Z, 6P, C2, 6P Defender, and the M2 are all 2-cell incans with the same output and runtime), but changes the body. There's nothing wrong with either of those choices, but there is something wrong with picking one and then bashing the other one. :shakehead


Again new surefire are around the corner, it just take them more time to upgrade. Gladius have been using the same luxeon nothing wrong with it still a solid product. 



TigerhawkT3 said:


> I'm not trying to put you down in any way. I'm trying to show you how your posts insult (many) other CPFers while inflating your own position. This book may be a good read for you and any other SF/Fenix loyalists who feel good when you put down Fenix/SF loyalists with little regard for respect and common courtesy.


I really don't mean to make anyone feel bad about their choice of flashlight after all we are here to share opinions, i do apologize in advance if i made someone feel such a way. I just state my experience with fenix was not that good. Again everyone enjoy your flashlight as long as you are satisfied with it.


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## adamr999 (Jun 22, 2007)

BB said:


> Oh No! Where is this thread heading now?????
> 
> Not the scary :grouphug: emoticon.
> 
> -Bill :eeksign:



What, is there something wrong with being emo? I guess I'll just push all my hair forward so it covers my eyes and blocks out the cruel world. 

I better leave this place before somebody steals my overly tight jeans.


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## 2xTrinity (Jun 22, 2007)

> No forward clickie/momentary is a bit of pain to some, but generally not a big deal with others. We've discussed it millions of times, but I'm still not sure why China manufacturers don't want to put a forward clickie. Even if they pass that additional cost to the consumer, I'm sure the light would still sell well.


In the case of Fenix, I believe it's because they're committed to an interface based on successive clicks advancing to different modes. If they were to switch to a forward clicky, attempting to use it for momentary-on control would lead to a lot of accidental mode-switches. In that scenario, I believe a reverse clicky is superior. IMHO I think it would be best if they offered a forward clicky light with just low, and high, using the twisty to switch between them, but their interface certainly isn't bad -- the intermediate levels to have their uses (ie, finding a good tradeoff between intensity and runtime), and there are conceivable situations where strobe can be useful, such as cyclists/pedestrians making themselves visible on the road at night.


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## nerdgineer (Jun 22, 2007)

greenstuffs said:


> ...I just state my experience with fenix was not that good. Again everyone enjoy your flashlight as long as you are satisfied with it.


And I respect that. However, individual experiences aren't good overall indicators for a product. Only statistics count, and they're hard to acquire; and some don't even care about that. 

Most of us carry way overkill for any lighting need which could reasonably occur, and that's what makes us happy. Disputes about who has more overkill should not be taken too seriously.

I've talked a lot about guns with combat veterans we've hired as consultants in the past. A lot didn't know extensive details about guns like some of the experts around here. They did however know a lot about how to use them to make war. They considered nuances beyond that superfluous - and they were right.


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## skyline_man (Jun 22, 2007)

> Ferrari owners/fans get touchy because their F430s are outperformed by a cheap plastic american car, the Corvette Z06. But the question is, given a choice, which would you rather have? I'd pick the Ferrari everytime.



Hell no! If money wasn't a problem - i'll still choose the Z06 over the F430s any day!! Much better car for a fraction of the price, the only difference is the badge. Hell, the Z06 is so damn good that even the UK show Top gear named it the best car of 2006 - ahead of the latest 911 turbo!

280bhp limit for Japanese cars? Not anymore! that rule is finally dumped keep a look out for the 2008 Nissan skyline GTR! :naughty:

And finally to those Surefire loyalists - chill out dudes, and stop thinking so one dimensionally!:wave:


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## greenstuffs (Jun 22, 2007)

Yeah sure i bet you pick up more girls with a Ferrari :naughty:


skyline_man said:


> Hell no! If money wasn't a problem - i'll still choose the Z06 over the F430s any day!! Much better car for a fraction of the price, the only difference is the badge. Hell, the Z06 is so damn good that even the UK show Top gear named it the best car of 2006 - ahead of the latest 911 turbo!
> 
> 280bhp limit for Japanese cars? Not anymore! that rule is finally dumped keep a look out for the 2008 Nissan skyline GTR! :naughty:
> 
> And finally to those Surefire loyalists - chill out dudes, and stop thinking so one dimensionally!:wave:


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## skyline_man (Jun 22, 2007)

Sorry, but overall package is more important to me than just a brand name and looks!


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## nerdgineer (Jun 22, 2007)

Don't know if it's any good, but here's something for the forward clicky fans...


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## Monocrom (Jun 22, 2007)

adamr999 said:


> Can't we all just get along? :grouphug:


 
Looking at this thread..... I'd say that's a negative on that one.


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## techwg (Jun 24, 2007)

I will just say that my P3D CE has replaced my Surefire G2 w/p-61

I am a guy in the city who does not know morse code, So in my opinion, unless you REQUIRE morse code access then you can use any style of light. The only reason forwars clickers are good is for morse basically. Also my G2 does not get chance to fully "power up" when you use it in short bursts because its an incan.. So those 6p's with the clickers with the strobe feature, what is the point of this when your light does not power on fully before its of again? I love surefire, but they suck batteries. My P3D CE is brighter visually than my P61 bulb in the G2 and it has a nicer spill. The good thing with the G2 is that you get very good colour rendition and its nicer for identification. If you need a light to be able to see over distance, and you dont know morse code, then P3D is for you. If you are in a tactical situation and need to be able to "flash someone" or morse code with it, then you need a surefire or something similar. Bottom line! 
They are different lights, for different people. Dont say one is crap over another. I love both of them, but for the battery usage and the fact that the bulb can blow at any time, i always prefer a good thrower adn light producing LED like the PxD CE range of fenix. Good light, good throw, good runtimes. How can you complain about them for usage?


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## woodrow (Jun 25, 2007)

While I would take a Fenix (don't own any yet) p3d over an e2e, there is one good point the Surefire fans have made.

As someone who has spent well over $1,000 on Surefire incans, and over $1,000 on 123a's feeding them, I do miss having a $200+ light with me every day.

I do miss tactical switches and perfect machineing. That's partially why I have been so hostile to Surefire lately. They are not making the lights that I want to buy. 

I would love to buy a $160 Fenix or Lumapower or whatever if I felt the fit, finish and materials justified the price. I would love even more to buy a $200 L5 cree. It looks like my desires will not be met for a while though. Hopefully, with Novatac's new offerings and possibly some others, us Led fans will not have to wait to long.


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## wrathothebunny (Jun 26, 2007)

Well, my new L2D CE Special Edition Q2 will replace my P3D CE (made the switch due to warmer color of the WG tinted Crees Fenix is putting in these new models, because the Eneloops just work incredibly in the L2Ds, and because the body appears more ergonomic and less likely to slip out of the hand if it gets wet or dirty)


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## Superhenrik (Jun 26, 2007)

I have 3 lights and they cover all my needs (at the moment anyway ;-):

1) MagLite 3 C with Led (Not very good light but can be just as a 
"beating tool" ;-)

2) Fenix P3D (Nice little light to carrie around) 

3) Wolf-Eyes T-13 (300+ lumens, Led tailcap and rechargeble)


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## wintermute (Jun 26, 2007)

skyline_man said:


> Hell no! If money wasn't a problem - i'll still choose the Z06 over the F430s any day!! Much better car for a fraction of the price, the only difference is the badge. Hell, the Z06 is so damn good that even the UK show Top gear named it the best car of 2006 - ahead of the latest 911 turbo!


[hijack thread]

Ok....wait a minute...have you ever drove a Ferrari?? Seriously. I haven't drove the F430, but I have driven the 360 Modena Spyder (and it was spectacular) - and I have also driven a Z06 (and it was excellent). But, there is no way, given the choice, that I would choose the Vette over the Ferrari. If you've never drove one, you won't understand it - but there is sooooooo much more then numbers. Acceleration from 0-60 and skidpad numbers mean nothing when it comes to the _feel_ of a Ferrari. 

The only person who would get a factory produced Z06 over a hand-made Ferrari is someone who has no experience with the Ferrari (or the Z06 for that matter). Speak about what you know about - not what you assume from numbers. Going from a Ferrari 360 to a Z06 would be like going from a Acura Integra to a Z06. Both good cars in their own element - but no comparison. 

I suppose you would prefer the Corvette Z06 to an original 427 Shelby AC Cobra too...right.

[/hijack thread]


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## CLHC (Jun 26, 2007)

My preference would still be the *SureFire E2e* over any of the fenix<<<(notice the lower case font) lights. Then again, that's me 10x10.

Enjoy!


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## carrot (Jun 27, 2007)

I have refrained from posting my thoughts on this topic for awhile. I knew what a cluster**** it'd become, so I thought I'd save my blood pressure.

I really don't understand what the big deal is about. I have Surefire lights. I have Fenix lights. They are really quite different in what they offer. Surefire offers expensive production lights that come about as close to "perfection" and top F&F as they can, for the most part, whereas Fenix offers an unparallelled quality to cost ratio. 

Fenix adds a lot of value to the market, because, way back when they originally introduced the revolutionary L1P, there were few decent alkaline-based Luxeon lights, and none as pocketable. They have shown time and time again that they are capable of listening to our needs and desires and quickly coming to market with new and exciting products with the kind of agility that few companies could hope to match. Even better, they are constantly incrementally improving their products, so the L2T you bought last year will be different from an L2T you order now. The E1 whose head people complained was too loose when it was introduced now fits just right. As I see it, the older Fenix lights needed no improvement. I long for an update of the L*T series with a Cree and OP reflector, a lower low and longer runtime on high. The new L*D series, no matter how many people try to justify it, really does not suit everyone, and while the L1D-CE has made its way into my bugout bag, I find the interface to be a minor nuisance. Fenix has delivered quality lights at low costs with as many features as they think they can fit. Many appreciate this. That's why Fenix lights are selling like hotcakes. They know their market.

Surefire, on the other hand, represents a legacy manufacturer, whose products were once state of the art (Maglite, anyone?) but are still generally regarded to be of the highest quality. Recent advancements in LED technology and new competitors have pushed Surefire to the sidelines (remember when every other thread was about Surefire?) but their R&D team has been playing with all the latest technology, even if their product lines appear to be stagnant. Being a company with a military contact and a serious (non-casual/enthusiast) user base, they cannot afford to take risks and jump to newer technologies without thoroughly testing. This makes them less agile than other companies like Fenix, and on par with Inova, which also has military contracts (this in regard to the T-series only). Their focus on the tactical and user market means that they sometimes do not fulfill the needs or wants of flashlight enthusiasts such as ourselves and it also means that they are not concerned with price as long as they deliver what they and their perceived market want. 

For the longest time, Surefire and flashlight enthusiasts goals were the same. Brighter and smaller. Runtime be damned. But now with the latest LED technology, it seems Surefire has refocused -- now the output is enough for many tactical operators, but runtime is an issue. This is evidenced with the Surefire K2 Kroma, where there have been numerous articles indicating that operators wanted more than just output. They wanted runtime. An hour is no longer enough. On the other hand, as enthusiasts, we often want the brightest we can get our hands on. The flashaholic market, while appreciated, is small potatoes to Surefire, and it just so happens that while their and our goals were the same, they picked up quite a few fans. I don't think we should criticize them for not meeting our desires, as it was never their intention. I believe that the Titan was a concession to CPFers and other flashaholics worldwide, because a fancy-pants titanium light has little use to a soldier in Baghdad, besides reading maps and off-duty usage. But we criticize them for that too. Unlike Fenix, what Surefire offers to us are high quality, no-nonsense lights that meet their design criteria and nothing more. 

There are some who appreciate Surefire's spartan, "when failure is not an option" lights (Executive series lights really don't count), and some are just looking for a good, bright light, which Fenix fulfills perfectly. Nothing wrong with either.


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## QuinnK (Jun 27, 2007)

You better be careful or you may be accused of taking a 'common sense' approach to the subject... 

Take care... Quinn


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## greenLED (Jun 27, 2007)

TheOrangeOne hits it on the nail once again. Well said.


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## Patriot (Jun 27, 2007)

yeah, great write Carrot. You really summed it up with that.


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## woodrow (Jun 27, 2007)

Carrot, great point.

Looking at this argument and my posts, I am reminded that I have miss posted myself. Not counting the e2e vs. the P3d... The main problem I have had about incans (especially 2 cell) is their lack of regulation and cost to run for lumans delivered.

New bulbs running over 95 lumans off of the flat discharging 18650 cell equeal the playing field somewhat. The Wolfeyes 6M was the light I was thinkiing about. Also, the new Wolfeyes 300 looks great as well.

I for one apologize for putting down all incans for a lack of regulation and high cost of ownership. Thats not totally the case. I bought my SF 9n when they first came out, and the battery sticks were not that good. It was still a pretty great light. 

I look forward to seeing led lights get even better. (multi emitters, SF quality - no matter who makes them) but I am also looking forward to a few special incans coming out as well.


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## Illum (Jul 8, 2007)

carrot said:


> I really don't understand what the big deal is about.



I really wonder why theres these "these new lights are better than the old lights" thread...on what grounds are they "better" if they were created for different purposes?
Sometimes people tend to overreact upon new technology, often comparing performance values such as runtime and output without giving thought to the lights design to certain applications. 
I agree with you 100% on this, sure the CREE rage is still continuing but that doesn't necessarily mean the other lights we know and love are now obsolete...

of course, to each his own, "The new L*D series, no matter how many people try to justify it, really does not suit everyone"

my $0.02, this reminds me of rereading the "not a sheep thread"


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## AWGD8 (Jul 8, 2007)

Surefire - made in USA = expensive labor in $ + production cost.

Fenix - Made in China = cheaper labor + cheaper production cost.

GEt it?

Even if the quality is the same , the price difference is huge.

I used to do CAM designing of printed circuit boards and our company closed due to a very high competition with China and Taiwan. We coudn`t compete against a cheap labor production bec. the salary for one employee here in USA is equivalent to a one production dept. in CHINA or Taiwan.


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## ampdude (Jul 8, 2007)

Gotta love those giant trade deficits.


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## ddashner (Jul 10, 2007)

I have to say as an EDC'er who has just dabbled in CPF I am very disappointed by this thread. Hopefully it isn't an indication of how this forum is as a whole. I was thinking about buying a P3D and thought (incorrectly) that this thread could offer some guidance. For the most part (with some voices of reason thrown in) all I found was an arguement. Guess I'll know better next time.


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## ampdude (Jul 11, 2007)

ddashner said:


> I have to say as an EDC'er who has just dabbled in CPF I am very disappointed by this thread. Hopefully it isn't an indication of how this forum is as a whole. I was thinking about buying a P3D and thought (incorrectly) that this thread could offer some guidance. For the most part (with some voices of reason thrown in) all I found was an arguement. Guess I'll know better next time.




That's how you discuss things. Everyone has an opinion. Am I the only one who is incredibly annoyed by all these "voices of reason" who act like they are above everything. It is taking up a third of the thread just with this superfluous self righteousness. If we're not here to discuss the merits of various flashlights compared to others, what are we here for? Seriously, give me a break.

And I mean that in the nicest possible way. 

Now let's get back to discussing the P3D versus the E2E. This is a flashlight discussion site afterall.


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## QuinnK (Jul 12, 2007)

Might be refreshing to see that... a post or two that was actually a knowledgeable discussion of the P3D versus the E2E. 

Take care... Quinn


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## NA8 (Jul 14, 2007)

I've been looking at the Fenix P2D CE and the P3D CE. They are both impressive, but the fact that the P3D seems to be a limited use model on "turbo mode" (160 lumens) due to heat issues makes me lean towards the P2D (130 lumens). Also, the P2D doesn't have any CR123 issues (mixing new and used, or just badly matched batteries) due to it's being a single battery design. Not sure what to make of the multi-modes, but at least they are both tail button designs.


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## BB (Jul 14, 2007)

I don't think you will have any heat problems with the P3D on turbo either...

The amount of difference in heat generated between 135 and 160 lumens is not much, the P3D has a longer body because of the extra battery (more area/mass to absorb/dissipate heat), and because of the higher voltage/lower current in the batteries, they dissipate less heat too (I^2*R heating--1/2 the current is 1/4 the heat).

One thread, the P3D got hot because it was in a pocket--basically insulated. And even though it got hot, there was no problem.

The issues with miss-matched batteries is true--but rare with good brands of batteries unless you mix old+new.

I would just choose the light based on your needs--larger P3D if you like the length and carrying two spare batteries... Smaller P2D if you want a shorter light, carry only one battery, and the shorter runtime is OK with you. realistically, you would probably need a meter to actually "see" the difference in light output between a P2D and a P3D--so making a choice on light output is really secondary. Either is a fine decision.

-Bill


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## NA8 (Jul 19, 2007)

The P3D is a pretty amazing light. I think the P2D is more the size that I would carry easily. I was reading up on Lumapower 303's which are a little less cutting edge than the Fenix. The Lumapower advertising included a comment about not driving the battery chemistry too hard. That struck me as a clever way of thinking about (attacking) what Fenix is doing with their aggressive electronics design. What do you think ? Is Fenix pushing the batteries too hard ? or just right ? Could be they're referring to the AA battery versions more than the CR123 versions.


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## BB (Jul 19, 2007)

The "LxD" series seems to push the AA Alkaline batteries pretty hard on high/turbo--and if you don't have a very good brand of alkaline battery, the turbo seems to just knock them flat (ChevroFreak's reviews/runtime plots).

The NiMH (rechargeable) and Lithium primaries, on the other hand, seem well able to handle the high discharge currents (Fenix lasts 1-2 hours on Turbo--depending on configuration).

Same reason that these NiMH/Lithium batteries will give hundreds and hundreds of shots in a digital camera, but a pair of same sized alkaline batteries will only give a dozen or two (seem to be huge I^2*R losses in Alkaline cells if they are discharged faster than about 1/4*C that NiMH, Lithium, and other chemistries don't have)...

So, I don't think the Fenix "abuses" the various battery technologies out there anymore than any high drain electronic device out there.

SureFire (and others) have CR123A lights that flatten batteries in 20-30 minutes--and life goes on fine.

Plus, if all you have is questionable Alkaline (or even carbon/zinc) or need longer runtimes (or are worried about abusing batteries)--the "D"igital "CE" Fenix lights do let you throttle the lights way down and still get more the light out of those batteries than just about anything else out there (right now).

-Bill


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## the fuzz (Jul 19, 2007)

does the fennix p3d take 18650?


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## NA8 (Jul 19, 2007)

the fuzz said:


> does the fennix p3d take 18650?



According to 

http://www.flashlightreviews.com/reviews/fenix_p3dce.htm

"Batteries: For batteries, this light is approved by the manufacturer for use with two 123A (a.k.a. CR123A) Lithium cells. All others are at your own risk. The input voltage for the Fenix P head is is not given."

He didn't actually mention if the tube was wide enough to fit a 18650 though.


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## NA8 (Jul 19, 2007)

BB said:


> So, I don't think the Fenix "abuses" the various battery technologies out there anymore than any high drain electronic device out there.
> 
> SureFire (and others) have CR123A lights that flatten batteries in 20-30 minutes--and life goes on fine.



Good points. Are flashlights the only products that stack up these CR123A cells, or is that pretty common ?


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## Vermonter73 (Jul 19, 2007)

That incan Surefire is really going to be "reliable" when the bulb is burned out. For 100% reliability LED is the only way to go, and Surefire doesn't make an LED that's bright enough.


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## carrot (Jul 19, 2007)

Vermonter73 said:


> That incan Surefire is really going to be "reliable" when the bulb is burned out. For 100% reliability LED is the only way to go, and Surefire doesn't make an LED that's bright enough.


Bright enough for whom?

Nothing's 100% reliable, and if something fails in an incan you just pop in a new bulb. When failure is not an option, who wouldn't carry a spare light or at least an extra bulb and batteries?


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## Outdoors Fanatic (Jul 19, 2007)

BB said:


> I don't think you will have any heat problems with the P3D on turbo either...
> 
> The amount of difference in heat generated between 135 and 160 lumens is not much, the P3D has a longer body because of the extra battery (more area/mass to absorb/dissipate heat), and because of the higher voltage/lower current in the batteries, they dissipate less heat too (I^2*R heating--1/2 the current is 1/4 the heat).
> 
> ...





> *135 and 160 lumens is not much*



Actually, according Flashlight Reviews, that is 68 and 128 real lumens. Quite a big difference from the manufacturer's claims eh? Next Fenix light will claim 200 lumens when it actually reaches 135...


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## StinkyButler (Jul 19, 2007)

Outdoors Fanatic said:


> Actually, according Flashlight Reviews, that is 68 and 128 real lumens. Quite a big difference from the manufacturer's claims eh? Next Fenix light will claim 200 lumens when it actually reaches 135...


 
The 68-lumen number is from the P2D on high, not turbo. The turbo lumens for the P2d were around 110 out the front, which probably equates to near 135 at the emitter.


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## 4sevens (Jul 19, 2007)

Outdoors Fanatic said:


> Actually, according Flashlight Reviews, that is 68 and 128 real lumens. Quite a big difference from the manufacturer's claims eh? Next Fenix light will claim 200 lumens when it actually reaches 135...



I believe you mis-read taking high for max. 

Fenix P2D claims 80 lumens on HIGH and doug measured 68 lumens.

You also need to consider 3 things.
1) Lumen claims are claimed based on Cree's manufacturer's claims.
They are driven to spec. taking the average max and min for the assume bin.
So those claims are at the emitter, not out the front.

2) Each emitter and circuit will have variations that are within tolerance.

3) Doug's method though track-proven, is still not an integrated sphere.

No and excuse here, just an explanation.

By the way, I sent a P3D modded with a Q5 for evaluation and
he got 190 lumens from his light box. His numbers are conservative
and comparable to doug's.


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## BB (Jul 19, 2007)

Outdoors Fanatic said:


> Actually, according Flashlight Reviews, that is 68 and 128 real lumens. Quite a big difference from the manufacturer's claims eh? Next Fenix light will claim 200 lumens when it actually reaches 135...



Do yo want to quote me in context?


BB said:


> The amount of difference in heat generated between 135 and 160 lumens...


Since I was speaking of heat vs light output, and using the Mfg. Numbers to relate the difference between to different models of light--it has virtually nothing to do with your point.

And, if you wish to actually measure and report beam energy the way our eyes do (and the way our ears respond to sound), you should be doing this in db (Decibels) and not using linear units.

Diff=10Log160 - 10log135 = 0.74 db difference between the two numbers you are arguing about... Your eyes' dynamic range is on the order of 40 db or more (bright sun to star light_* edit: I should probably say that 40 db is dynamic range of our eyes ability to resolve images between bright sunlight and deep shadow in the same scene--Bright sun to star light is probably better than 70-80 db in total range*_).

In engineering and biological terms, those two numbers (160 and 138 lumen) are virtually identical.

To just barely see a difference (A/B testing) with your eyes in the output between two lights, you need a factor of two (either 2x as much, or 1/2 less) in comparisons... Or 10Log2=3.0 db difference...

So, to quote you again:



Outdoors Fanatic said:


> Quite a big difference from the manufacturer's claims eh?



No, it is virtually no difference at all, and probably within the margin of error of most non $20,000 test equipment (and emitter/flashlight/regulator/battery variability) and definitely not even visible if you used one light the first night, and the second on the next night.

If you wish to complain that Fenix using Bulb Lumens vs SureFire Torch Lumens--fine, go knock yourself out.

If you want a light that is as bright (or brighter) as virtually any SureFire LED with much longer runtime on the same set of batteries, for less money (and less ruggedness and quality for the most part--or go see the L1 complaint thread or the other threads trashing SureFire's Mfg. Pricing policies)--get whatever light you wish.

-Bill


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## zk188 (Jul 19, 2007)

This thread:shakehead.


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## luigi (Jul 19, 2007)

We might create a new forum "Fenix vs Surefire deadmatch", so the ones that have fun reading this kind of battles can have fun and the ones that like to just discuss lights will not have to go thru the antics. 

I have an e2e but I still don't have a P3D should I get one ?

Luigi


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## revolvergeek (Jul 19, 2007)

I got my P3D-CE in the mail yesterday (picked it up on a trade) and it is VERY impressive. It is the perfect compliment to my Milky / Surefire L1. Different lights for different days. I am very pleased to own both.:twothumbs


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## half-watt (Jul 20, 2007)

BB said:


> ...Diff=10Log160 - 10log135 = 0.74 db difference between the two numbers you are arguing about... Your eyes' dynamic range is on the order of 40 db or more (bright sun to star light_* edit: I should probably say that 40 db is dynamic range of our eyes ability to resolve images between bright sunlight and deep shadow in the same scene--Bright sun to star light is probably better than 70-80 db in total range*_).
> 
> In engineering and biological terms, those two numbers (160 and 138 lumen) are virtually identical...





BB, first off, great post. too often we major in the minors. as an engineer, i like gettin' practical (otherwise, i'd be a mathematician - just kiddin' no offense intended to any mathematician out there).

just one question so that i'm real clear on this. before i ask, what's in the back of my mind is something from Computer Graphics and the human eye's ability to distinguish between shades of color (i know cones here & not rods, but maybe it will work in an analogous fashion???). With colors, the human eye can distinguish over 1 million, but less than 2 million colors shades of color - if i recall the numbers correctly. 

However, there's one caveat there. Show a sequence/series of color tiles to people one at a time, i.e. only have in view of their eyes one color tile at a time, e.g. red, blue, green, yellow, blue (just an example, you could use other colors), and then repeat the sequence. ask them how many colors they saw and they'll say FOUR (red, blue, green, yellow).

Now, place the two blues side by side and they'll see that the two blue tiles are actually a shade or two different (not by chance, the blue tiles in this experiment were intentionally made just a shade or two different).

Ok, with this as a background, what i'm asking (NOT suggesting, as i really don't know the answer), is are you speaking of NOT recognizing the difference between 160 lumens and 135 lumens in sequence one after another, or side-by-side next to each other with both in view at the same time - whether it's a beam shot on white, or attempting to view an object, or whatever.

Could you please just clarify and educate me a bit on the point that you're making. Right now, with no further input from you, i'm leaning towards a sequential viewing of 160 & 135 versus a side-by-side/in-parallel viewing. I've looked at both my P2D-CE and P3D-CE on turbo, side by side and one appears brighter than the other (i know BINs have ranges and i could have an upper BIN range LED in the P3D and a lower BIN range LED in the P2D, making the difference even more than what you math shows - i don't know this for a fact though).

Many thanks for being willing to dialogue with me and educate an old man. I look forward to what i believe will be a very instructive reply that i'll learn something from. Thanks again.


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## Illum (Jul 20, 2007)

Vermonter73 said:


> LED is the only way to go, and Surefire doesn't make an LED that's bright enough.



define "bright enough" what LED do you consider to be "bright enough"?




carrot said:


> Nothing's 100% reliable, and if something fails in an incan you just pop in a new bulb. When failure is not an option, who wouldn't carry a spare light or at least an extra bulb and batteries?




_*FAILURE IS NOT AN OPTION, IT IS A REALITY*_
sure lamps will break, but we fail to realize that LEDs have their limits too, they just dont seem to fail as easily or as noticeable as incandescent...


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## BB (Jul 20, 2007)

half-watt said:


> Could you please just clarify and educate me a bit on the point that you're making. Right now, with no further input from you, i'm leaning towards a sequential viewing of 160 & 135 versus a side-by-side/in-parallel viewing.



Half-Watt and I have exchanged some PM's because I was not clear on his question--Basically, I was not intending anything special between the numbers (160/135) and A/B comparisons vs white wall hunting with two lights on at the same time to see small differences in beam size/brightness...

The both have their uses but I was tending towards an opinion that if A/B and/or white walling of two lights was the only way you could tell the difference--then it is probably not a big enough difference to matter in the first place when using the light(s) out in the field.

-Bill


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