# Snowmageddon '21



## scout24 (Feb 2, 2021)

Hi all- A solid 2 feet here in Northeast Pa. Please check in and let us know if you're ok. We kept power here, going to be a few days until we're dug out.


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## bykfixer (Feb 2, 2021)

I saw about 200 power trucks heading north on 95 yesterday. Today I've seen about 50 so far heading back south.

Glad all is well there. Somebody said Puxatawnee Phil died from a head injury from slipping on an ice patch but since he was covid positive he was listed as a covid death.


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## Poppy (Feb 2, 2021)

Here I am sipping on a hot totty 

I'll be a hurtin puppy tomorrow 

I don't know what we got, 18-22 inches; but with the drifts, 28-30 inches.
Yesterday My daughter and one grandson did a lot of shoveling, and although it was against my better judgement, I fired up the snowblower and helped them out. 2 hours after we were done, you couldn't tell that we were out there.

Today, the grandkids had virtual school, So I did our driveway, etc, and helped a neighbor who wanted to hire the kids to do their snow. My 10 hp snow blower was struggling a little because the snow was deeper than the snout is high. 

I helped four neighbors. One helped my daughter do the stuff on my property that I couldn't get with the blower.

Even though the blower does 90% of the work, I have a tendency to do 500% to 1000% more than if I didn't have one. I'm pretty wiped out. 

It's good to be a good neighbor. 

There are very few reported outages in our area, none in my town. In preparation though I started both my generator, and my snow blower the day before the storm. We did lose internet for half an hour.

Things are good!


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## ironhorse (Feb 2, 2021)

Spent 2 1/2 hours this morning plowing out myself and the neighbors. Now it's all drifted back in. You can't hardly tell that I did anything.


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## wweiss (Feb 2, 2021)

13” in Weston CT. Long driveway, 24” Ariens blower, 5 hours. Including the 85 year old widow across the street. And I’m usually not that nice...


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## orbital (Feb 2, 2021)

+

Winter teaches you how to have a back-up plan to your back-up plan.


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## don.gwapo (Feb 2, 2021)

Wish we have snow here.......... in Hawaii.


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## scout24 (Feb 2, 2021)

Shoveled off our deck and plowed every few hours yesterday, figured I'd stay on top of it. I don't like pushing more than 8-10" of snow, and eventually run out of room to put it. Went to sleep last night with an inch or so on the deck, figured I'd be good until morning. Woke up to another foot on the ground. Out came the snowblower. I moved snow and scraped cars for six hours. Still not done, I have to clean off the camper roof tomorrow. Glad we didn't lose power, that would've added a wrinkle I didn't look forward to dealing with...


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## aginthelaw (Feb 2, 2021)

Got 16-18 inches in Plainfield. Cat made a tunnel on the back porch until he had enough. Spent an hour alone until the wife threw the kids out to help. All together it took 2 ½ hours. Then the landlords groundskeeper showed up.


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## wweiss (Feb 2, 2021)

don.gwapo said:


> Wish we have snow here.......... in Hawaii.




You do - up there on top of the volcanoes...


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## lightknot (Feb 2, 2021)

75 degrees in Tucson. I saw a guy with snow in the back of his truck so it must be around somewhere. He probably came from the mountains..


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## scout24 (Feb 3, 2021)

A litle insult to injury, (Or Mother Nature with a sense of humor...) we had another 3" overnight. So everything has to be cleaned again. At least it's smaller scale.


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## wweiss (Feb 3, 2021)

scout24 said:


> A litle insult to injury, (Or Mother Nature with a sense of humor...) we had another 3" overnight. So everything has to be cleaned again. At least it's smaller scale.



Funny how 3” after 16” seems no big deal.


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## turbodog (Feb 3, 2021)

scout24 said:


> Shoveled off our deck and plowed every few hours yesterday, figured I'd stay on top of it. I don't like pushing more than 8-10" of snow, and eventually run out of room to put it. Went to sleep last night with an inch or so on the deck, figured I'd be good until morning. Woke up to another foot on the ground. Out came the snowblower. I moved snow and scraped cars for six hours. Still not done, I have to clean off the camper roof tomorrow. Glad we didn't lose power, that would've added a wrinkle I didn't look forward to dealing with...



Why do people up north NOT seem to use garages? What am I missing?


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## aginthelaw (Feb 3, 2021)

Our house didn’t come with one


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## nbp (Feb 3, 2021)

turbodog said:


> Why do people up north NOT seem to use garages? What am I missing?



That’s not a “thing” in the north. If anything I have seen it a lot more in southern, warmer climes. Most people do park inside because chiseling ice off cars sucks. But if you have more cars than garage spots, it happens.


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## Chauncey Gardiner (Feb 3, 2021)

N.W. Washington resident, here. We put our automobiles in garages so the don't get covered with moss.


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## scout24 (Feb 3, 2021)

Turbodog- I've got a good sized 2 car garage that we can't fit cars in. Mowers, tools, motorcycle, and half the crap one of our kids owns... :ironic:


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## Poppy (Feb 3, 2021)

In the late 1980's or early 1990's we got hammered with snow, one significant storm after another. My driveway was between two homes each with steep roofs, so if we got 18 inches, 36 inches fell into my driveway. Lots were only 45 feet wide.

If you didn't have a driveway, parking was at an absolute premium. The girls across the street, had two cars, and one was parked behind the other on a County road that had parking on each side, and two lanes North, and two lanes South. So they had two lanes of snow plowed into and under each of their cars. They worked for hours digging out their cars, creating piles of snow in front and behind each of their cars. The piles were 6-8 feet high. Hugh piles! 

When they were all done, they realized that as soon as they moved one car out, someone else would take their spot. Therefore they couldn't use their cars. So, they removed the pile of snow that was between their cars, and placed it beside their cars, and dug out an exit for the front car. They would then pull the back car forward to block the entrance, and have an empty spot waiting for the return of the other car. Brilliant!!!... They should have thought of that sooner!

I had a 7 HP Simplicity snow blower. A great machine, the only problem is that it had only two forward speeds. Slow and Slower yet.
My driveway took two throws to get the snow to the back yard. 

I did my next door neighbor's sidewalk and driveway... Uncle Sid. Gotta love him. 

My other neighbor's corner lot property, (the old retired dentist) so happy with his little flower garden. 
And the neighbor who's property ran along my back-yard. Their driveway and sidewalk.

I then went across the street to help the two girls clear a path to their back door, and to help a friend who's snow blower died on him, or couldn't handle the depth of the snow.

I then walked my slower than molasses blower, in the street, all the while leaning down on the handles to keep the blade out of the street, to my father's house 9 city blocks away. I was spent before I started that trek. By time I got there, I was DONE!

I did my Dad's driveway and sidewalk, and a path to the back of the house.

His neighbor across the street wanted me to do hers. I was DONE! She insisted... I'll pay you!... NO! ... How much do you want? I'll pay you!
OK a hundred dollars.
She agreed.
Oh damn!

So I did her driveway and sidewalk. She paid me by check.

My daughter's friend was dying of leukemia, I was going to donate to the cause.

The following day, this women read my Father the riot act at how I had overcharged her. She met someone with a plow who would have done her driveway for $20. (Yeah right! I asked a guy to push the snow forward, the length of ONE parking spot 15 feet, in the street in front of my house. He wouldn't drop his plow for less than $100.) 

This past summer my Dad pulled out a copy of the two page letter I had written her, and read it at his birthday celebration. Two well written pages, that had us all laughing. I returned her check.

I hope she forwarded it... I doubt it. 

____________________

So here we are 30 years later. A neighbor offered $100 for my grandkids to shovel their driveway and sidewalk, etc.

The kids had virtual school and homework and virtual meetings. I would have helped the kids, with the snow blower, so I told my daughter to tell them that I would do what I could with the blower to remove the bulk of the snow, but not the steps, etc. I wanted them to know that it wasn't going to be squeaky clean. She never made the call.

Fortunately, they were out there with shovels for an hour before I got there. They cleared the steps and walkway and were in the process of clearing the cars. Once I got started, I realized that I would never have done this for $100. They had a triple wide driveway and about 150 feet of sidewalk. All deeper than the throat of my blower. I was committed... I hope this doesn't end up like the last time.

Today my daughter found that plow drivers were demanding $450 for clearing the driveways, and not doing sidewalks.

Thankfully, these neighbors were extremely thankful. I hope this is the beginning of a long lasting friendship. :thumbsup:


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## turbodog (Feb 3, 2021)

Poppy said:


> ...
> Today my daughter found that plow drivers were demanding $450 for clearing the driveways, and not doing sidewalks.
> 
> ...



Whoa... $450??? I need to load up the tractor, drive up, and make some cash. Pretty sure I can get a snowplow/thrower attachment for the front.


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## turbodog (Feb 3, 2021)

So question...

If you had a garden hose, appropriate spray tip, and unlimited supply of hot water... what kind of job would that do? I figure it would leave a thin layer of ice behind. Would that be ok? Is it moot... is ice under there anyway?


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## aginthelaw (Feb 3, 2021)

turbodog said:


> So question...
> 
> If you had a garden hose, appropriate spray tip, and unlimited supply of hot water... what kind of job would that do? I figure it would leave a thin layer of ice behind. Would that be ok? Is it moot... is ice under there anyway?



The water can’t run into the sewer because it’s blocked by snow so you’ll have the makings of a skating rink.


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## turbodog (Feb 3, 2021)

aginthelaw said:


> The water can’t run into the sewer because it’s blocked by snow so you’ll have the makings of a skating rink.



Maybe cut through the 'dam' beforehand so it'll drain.

Gotta be crazy to battle summertime heat AND snow! Move further south... battle heat and mosquitoes!


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## Poppy (Feb 3, 2021)

turbodog said:


> Whoa... $450??? I need to load up the tractor, drive up, and make some cash. Pretty sure I can get a snowplow/thrower attachment for the front.


Absolutely you can.

I saw more than one driver with a 4x4, with a plow stop in our street, trod through the snow to the front door, to try to solicit some business. 

All ca$h.

Problem is... in this area, a snowfall like this comes only once in every five years.


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## LeanBurn (Feb 3, 2021)

Oh yeah...well up in the cold tundra of Canada where I live...we've received a whole inch of snow so far. Might even have to use the broom to sweep it away.


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## Poppy (Feb 3, 2021)

turbodog said:


> So question...
> 
> If you had a garden hose, appropriate spray tip, and unlimited supply of hot water... what kind of job would that do? I figure it would leave a thin layer of ice behind. Would that be ok? Is it moot... is ice under there anyway?


The key is UNLIMITED HOT WATER.
You would to melt the resultant ice.

You may also need additional heat to evaporate the residual water. If any water remains, and one slips on it you will be speaking with your defense attorney.


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## scout24 (Feb 4, 2021)

Poppy- I'm happy to hear your Grandkids were out and working! It's good for kids to do things like that. I made more than a couple bucks back in the day with a snow shovel or a push lawnmower, dragging both all over our neighborhood. Leanburn- My brother in law (RIP) was a big fan of the leaf blower to try to stay ahead of moving light snow. It works to a point, I like your broom better...


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## orbital (Feb 4, 2021)

turbodog said:


> So question...
> 
> If you had a garden hose, appropriate spray tip, and unlimited supply of hot water... what kind of job would that do? I figure it would leave a thin layer of ice behind. Would that be ok? Is it moot... is ice under there anyway?



+

You would have an unimaginable mess that would be inexplicably harder to get rid of the ice created, if not impossible.

The reason you get rid of the snow & not just drive over it, is to avoid ice formation,, *ice makes more ice* & that's a real problem.


side note:
our next snow is supposed to be wetter followed by Arctic* air mass,, if you don't get rid of the snow, it'll set up like concrete & getting rid of it becomes VERY difficult.


* -30F wind chill is something you have to plan for.


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## markr6 (Feb 4, 2021)

turbodog said:


> Why do people up north NOT seem to use garages? What am I missing?




I KNOW!!!! I was looking at places in northern MI and that seems like the one place you'd want relief from the harsh winter. Well, spend enough and a house will obviously come with, but overall, many with no garage.


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## turbodog (Feb 4, 2021)

orbital said:


> +
> 
> You would have an unimaginable mess that would be inexplicably harder to get rid of the ice created, if not impossible.
> 
> ...



Ah!

Well the hot water method would be costly... I just wondered if it would technically work. You know... melts the snow, and a river of lukewarm water/snow runs down the storm drains, out of sight.


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## nbp (Feb 4, 2021)

turbodog said:


> Ah!
> 
> Well the hot water method would be costly... I just wondered if it would technically work. You know... melts the snow, and a river of lukewarm water/snow runs down the storm drains, out of sight.



It would melt the snow but the concrete below is very cold so the water will freeze on it. You’d have to put so much hot water on that it actually warmed the surface enough for the water to drain away and dry off without refreezing. If you did it in direct sun on a black asphalt drive you might possibly get away with it. But it would probably be more work than just using a snowblower.


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## Poppy (Feb 4, 2021)

Each year I consider getting one of those big propane torches to melt ice that remains after shoveling the steps or pathway.
https://www.harborfreight.com/propane-torch-with-push-button-igniter-91037.html

I have yet to pull the trigger. 
It is easy enough to throw rock salt on it, but it does make a bit of a mess, when you track it into the house.

Do any of you have experience using one of these for melting ice/snow?
I suspect that it will be tedious, and I don't know how long a tank of gas will last.


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## bykfixer (Feb 4, 2021)

I keep a 5 gallon bucket loaded with mortar sand for traction. 

FYI if you know you are about to get a big snow it's a great time to toss out grass seed (kept warm by the blanket of snow), lime and fertilzer. The slow melt into the soil takes the fertilizer, lime and seed into the soil very efficiently. Come spring you'll either rejoice or holler out "my gosh what have I done?" depending of your love of cutting grass.


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## turbodog (Feb 4, 2021)

Poppy said:


> Each year I consider getting one of those big propane torches to melt ice that remains after shoveling the steps or pathway.
> https://www.harborfreight.com/propane-torch-with-push-button-igniter-91037.html
> 
> I have yet to pull the trigger.
> ...



I've used one, not for snow, but on a gravel drive for grass/weed "removal".

*CAUTION*: it caused rocks (with moisture trapped inside) to explode.


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## Poppy (Feb 4, 2021)

turbodog said:


> I've used one, not for snow, but on a gravel drive for grass/weed "removal".
> 
> *CAUTION*: it caused rocks (with moisture trapped inside) to explode.


Ouch! I hadn't thought of that.

I had thought that if I melted the ice, but didn't boil the water away, I might be adding a freeze/thaw/freeze/thaw situation and break up some concrete or sandstone, or brick steps. 

OK... so now I have a good reason to NOT get one. :thumbsup:


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## jtr1962 (Feb 4, 2021)

Poppy said:


> Do any of you have experience using one of these for melting ice/snow?
> I suspect that it will be tedious, and I don't know how long a tank of gas will last.


No experience with it but the numbers don't really pan out. 1 gallon of propane has about 91,500 BTUs. It takes 288,000 BTUs to melt one ton of ice, plus whatever is needed to bring it from the temperature it's at to 32°F. However, that assumes perfect heat transfer from the torch to the ice, as well as a flame which burns every bit of propane. Remember heat rises. Most of the energy from the propane torch will go into the cold air, not into melting the ice. In practice I'd be surprised if 10% of the energy in the propane goes into melting ice. That would be enough to melt perhaps 50 or 60 pounds of ice. If using propane torches were an effective way to remove ice then everyone would already be doing it. Getting a very thin layer of ice off a few steps, fine. But for anything much more than that, you had better be ready to buy propane by the tens of gallons at least.

Salt is much more practical, even if a bit messy.

Thankfully all I had to do was 40 feet of sidewalk, plus the walk leading to the front steps, and the front steps/stoop. Since I don't drive or own a car, mother nature can take care of the driveway in her own good time.


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## wweiss (Feb 4, 2021)

Magnesium Chloride / Calcium Cloride are the way to go. Less harmful than sodium cloride to nearby grass/plants and very cost effective to melting ice down to -12 or less. I ran a commercial plowing division for 35 years and we used many, many 50 Lb bags per storm.


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## bykfixer (Feb 4, 2021)

We use calcium chloride for dust control on construction projects at times. Wind erosion can be problematic at times.


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## wweiss (Feb 4, 2021)

bykfixer said:


> We use calcium chloride for dust control on construction projects at times. Wind erosion can be problematic at times.



Yes! I have too. It’s hydrophilic and extracts moisture from the air to keep itself “wet” to lock up dry dust.


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## bykfixer (Feb 6, 2021)

Ah, what perils await the unsuspecting north east coast of the United States from this harmless looking blob of green and yellow currently over Alabama and Georgia? 






Stay tuned, same Bat time, same Bat channel


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## Poppy (Feb 6, 2021)

LOL... if you are in NJ and want less snow 3"-6" watch channel 7
If you want more snow... 4"-8+" watch channel 2


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## bykfixer (Feb 6, 2021)

Yup. Drama in weather forecasting. 

My son keeps the weather channel on at his house like CNN at airports. In summer it's always predicted to be hotter than local tv forecasts. In winter, always colder. More rain, more snow etc. The thing that makes me chuckle is the term "dangerous lightning" as if there is a lightning that is all kind and gentle-like. And hail? "Golf ball sized, beware!!" 

Years ago when I lived in an apartment a few doors down from a high school buddy one spring afternoon I heard this screaming like a girl through my open windows. I stepped outside to investigate. It was coming from my buddies apartment. I knocked on the door and hollered through the mail slot on the door "you ok in there?" I hear "No, my new truck" as he opened the door. He was watching the weather channel who was forecasting baseball sized hail in our area and he had just brought home the nicest vehicle he'd ever owned. Dude was in panic mode. I said "calm down bro we never get hail bigger than a pea"……he said "shut up, you aint helping". lol. I mentioned an oak tree nearby in a guest parking lot where I parked my vintage Mustang under a cover to protect it from droppings from birds or tree sap. "Nope, nope, nope I aint gonna park it there" he hollered out. I just shrugged and walked back to my apartment. 

We got some rain but no hail. I looked out of my window while it rained and homie was standing in the bed of his nice new truck holding two umbrelas over it. lol He got soaked but hey, his truck was protected, right. I'm thinking to myself "holding up two metal clad umbrelas in a lightning storm, rum dumb"……
To this day he still has that truck. 

So here the forecast is rain, snow and rain. A carbon copy of last week starting an hour earlier and ending an hour later. It's bright, sunny and 50 degrees here so it's kinda hard to imagine waking tomorrow and seeing the ground covered with snow. Yet through modern technology I have a whole day to prepare for that innocent looking blob of green and yellow currently over the south east of the US. 

Meanwhile






My local department of transportation is putting down pothole fertilzer by the tank full. 
Nice


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## boo5ted (Feb 6, 2021)

bykfixer said:


> Ah, what perils await the unsuspecting north east coast of the United States from this harmless looking blob of green and yellow currently over Alabama and Georgia?
> 
> 
> 
> ...





Well that little blob of green and yellow just dropped a bit of sleet just north of ATL.


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## raggie33 (Feb 6, 2021)

boo5ted said:


> Well that little blob of green and yellow just dropped a bit of sleet just north of ATL.



here on lake lanier to.


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## Poppy (Feb 7, 2021)

boo5ted said:


> Well that little blob of green and yellow just dropped a bit of sleet just north of ATL.




Is that a BigFoot sighting on your back deck?

Here in Jersey...

[FONT=&quot]Snow. High near 32. Northeast wind around 6 mph becoming north in the afternoon. Chance of precipitation is 100%. Total daytime snow accumulation of 3 to 7 inches possible.

[/FONT]
Sunday Night​A 40 percent chance of snow before 8pm. Partly cloudy, with a low around 16. Wind chill values between 10 and 15. Northwest wind 5 to 9 mph.

I'm up at 4:00 AM Puppy training a new dog.
Or maybe he is Poppy training?


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## boo5ted (Feb 7, 2021)

Nope, just my boot print haha.


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## orbital (Feb 7, 2021)

+

Currently: *Wind Chill* -35°F (-37°C)

that's almost fiery cold ^


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## …ZIM… (Feb 7, 2021)

Yea, western NC here! We got dusting last night. Maybe an inch and a half here in my town. Roads are already clear this morning. Hope y’all stay safe up that way


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## bykfixer (Feb 11, 2021)

Here comes round 3. Ding ding ding…
Earlier this week it was "worst ice storm since the ice age" and now it's "eh, we might get a little, but wait……Saturday is too tough to call right now so gas up those chain saws 'cause every tree in the area may be toppled over by this one".


We figure 1-4" of snow and a 1/4" of ice by Sunday.


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## bigburly912 (Feb 11, 2021)

Boy that used to work with/for me sent me this from Georgetown Kentucky last night. I was on storm watch all day but we ended up with nothing.


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## raggie33 (Feb 11, 2021)

i love all weather when everyone is ok i been thru all disaters except a volcano its kindof exciting if no one is harmed


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## Chauncey Gardiner (Feb 11, 2021)

bykfixer said:


> Here comes round 3. Ding ding ding…
> Earlier this week it was "worst ice storm since the ice age" and now it's "eh, we might get a little, but wait……Saturday is too tough to call right now so gas up those chain saws 'cause every tree in the area may be toppled over by this one".
> 
> 
> We figure 1-4" of snow and a 1/4" of ice by Sunday.



Snow is usually not much to worry about here in the North West. However, freezing rain is horrible. SNAP! CRACKLE! POP! all night long. :hairpull: 12 hours to create a mess that takes a week to clean up.


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## turbodog (Feb 11, 2021)

Chauncey Gardiner said:


> Snow is usually not much to worry about here in the North West. However, freezing rain is horrible. SNAP! CRACKLE! POP! all night long. :hairpull: 12 hours to create a mess that takes a week to clean up.



Northern latitudes get more ice I assume. In the south... it's been 22 years since an ice storm came through... hope the power company spent that time wisely, keeping things trimmed back. We are supposed to get freezing rain mon/tue with lows of 9F. That's not cold for you northern people, but down here it's flipping ridiculous.


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## idleprocess (Feb 11, 2021)

DFW area saw a few days of freezing weather and a small amount of rain / sleet that contributed to a horrific mass wreck on I-35W in Fort Worth this morning.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k0_1EV1GXMw


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## wweiss (Feb 11, 2021)

bykfixer said:


> Ah, what perils await the unsuspecting north east coast of the United States from this harmless looking blob of green and yellow currently over Alabama and Georgia?
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Careful - bats didn’t work out all that well for us this past year...


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## turbodog (Feb 11, 2021)

idleprocess said:


> DFW area saw a few days of freezing weather and a small amount of rain / sleet that contributed to a horrific mass wreck on I-35W in Fort Worth this morning.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k0_1EV1GXMw



Some bad stuff there. Those tractor trailers... ouch.


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## orbital (Feb 12, 2021)

+

Gotta say, I feel a bit for people in the south & Texas in particular,, you're getting weather your not used to // or prepared for.
Usually you get some snow or ice & it melts thew next day,, not with this series of systems.

If you have to drive, dress like you are going to be outside for 12 hours,, you *cannot* over prepare or just rely on your phone.
Hat, gloves, winter boots, long underwear, layers,,, several thin layers then a shell coat*, not just one silly bulky coat.
(avoid cotton anything at all cost)

None of your clothes should be tight, trapping air between layers is everything,,, tight is your enemy.



_** longer foul weather gear shell *_


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## Poppy (Feb 12, 2021)

orbital,
great tips!

You may add a sleeping bag too (much warmer than a blanket), and cars get really cold if the engine isn't running.
Don't let your gas tank get lower than 1/2 full.
A couple bottles of water, and a big bag of trail mix, or a couple granola bars.

A urinal bottle may be handy, or for the ladies a "Go Girl" 

I keep a couple of those really thin plastic bags, that you get in the super market to cover uncooked meat packages, in the trunk. They can be put over socks, and inside shoes/sneakers, to keep feet dry, despite the fact that the shoes may not be waterproof. Also a few pairs of dry socks. Cold wet feet are uncomfortable to say the least.

During the winter, and sometimes all year long, I keep 100 feet of 1/2 inch line and a pully. Also during the winter a long handled shovel.


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## orbital (Feb 12, 2021)

+

Never would I say you have to buy the best of everything, it's just unnecessary.
Although, for your shell jacket, one that is breathable is key.

Say you slide off the road & desperately try to dig out, you're panicking and digging really hard, trust me your going to sweat alot.
Then you realize your not getting out anytime soon, if your soaked in sweat & that water cannot escape,, your freeze.

In winter, it's about staying dry.


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## bykfixer (Feb 12, 2021)

One of my coworkers years ago told me he and a buddy went fishing in a canoe in winter. He said he had wool clothing to stay warm, his buddy cotten and down. 

The boat tipped over and they took a bath. He said they were able to build a fire on the shore but his buddy froze to death since the cotten and down held so much water where his wool clothes dried quickly enough to eventually go find help.

We're getting a mixture of warm air aloft with cold air at the surface. So far the combination hasn't been bad at all for the most part, but boy o boy that could change in temperature of just one or two degrees. (Fingers crossed)


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## idleprocess (Feb 12, 2021)

orbital said:


> Gotta say, I feel a bit for people in the south & Texas in particular,, you're getting weather your not used to // or prepared for.
> Usually you get some snow or ice & it melts thew next day,, not with this series of systems.
> 
> If you have to drive, dress like you are going to be outside for 12 hours,, you *cannot* over prepare or just rely on your phone.
> ...



2-3 thin outer layers perform better than 1 thick monolithic layer for sure.

In my experience most Southerners are _quite_ enamored with the "one silly bulky coat". I suspect this is out of anything below ~60F being "cold" and the relative infrequency of temperatures below ~40F where outdoor activity drops off sharply.


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## Chauncey Gardiner (Feb 12, 2021)

idleprocess said:


> 2-3 thin outer layers perform better than 1 thick monolithic layer for sure.
> 
> In my experience most Southerners are _quite_ enamored with the "one silly bulky coat". I suspect this is out of anything below ~60F being "cold" and the relative infrequency of temperatures below ~40F where outdoor activity drops off sharply.


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## Stress_Test (Feb 12, 2021)

idleprocess said:


> 2-3 thin outer layers perform better than 1 thick monolithic layer for sure.
> 
> In my experience most Southerners are _quite_ enamored with the "one silly bulky coat". I suspect this is out of anything below ~60F being "cold" and the relative infrequency of temperatures below ~40F where outdoor activity drops off sharply.



Ha, I go with the "silly bulky coat" if it's gonna be in the 30s or lower. BUT I'm wearing something lighter underneath, and another shirt under that, so I can peel off layers easily. I've done this approach for a long time because buildings are usually too warm for me, but I'm a skinny dude and freeze my butt off outside if I'm not dressed for it.

I get occasional flack from people about my silly ski-parka looking coat (with hood!) but if we're outside and it's below freezing and windy, they don't say much after a few minutes; they're shivering too hard to say anything since they didn't dress warmly enough!  

(side note, personally I consider a good hood to be a "must have" part of a serious cold-weather coat. Makes me feel soooo much better with the hood up keeping the wind off my head!)


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## turbodog (Feb 12, 2021)

So question...

We are forecast for .5" ice on Monday. The temp will already be below freezing when it arrives. I know that trees, overhead wires, and bridges are toast. How cold does it have to be for it to freeze/stick and NOT melt on the roadways? Trying to plan work on Mon/Tue... maybe able to work... or might get trapped unable to get back home.


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## idleprocess (Feb 12, 2021)

Stress_Test said:


> Ha, I go with the "silly bulky coat" if it's gonna be in the 30s or lower. BUT I'm wearing something lighter underneath, and another shirt under that, so I can peel off layers easily. I've done this approach for a long time because buildings are usually too warm for me, but I'm a skinny dude and freeze my butt off outside if I'm not dressed for it.



I've got a 2- and 3-layer setup that works well for me down though the 20s for routine outdoor activities and the workday. But I've developed a tolerance for temperature extremes, my outdoor activities these days are limited to walking dogs + household projects, and no one would call me skinny.

But the humorous aspect for me is always that first 'cold' day in DFW and suddenly everyone's all _North Faced up_ because it's a sunny _*57F*_ day.



Stress_Test said:


> (side note, personally I consider a good hood to be a "must have" part of a serious cold-weather coat. Makes me feel soooo much better with the hood up keeping the wind off my head!)


Took me a while to come to this conclusion, but living on the prairie I realized the value once I had one since _that one tree_ on the banks of the Red River between Texas and Canada doesn't tend to have many good years.

My personal revelation was Polartec windbloc, which is really a great all-around material for where I'm at - modest insulation value, decent wind-blocking, can acceptably shrug off rain for some while, and doesn't lose insulation value when wet. Unfortunately it doesn't seem to be all that popular anymore.


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## idleprocess (Feb 12, 2021)

turbodog said:


> So question...
> 
> We are forecast for .5" ice on Monday. The temp will already be below freezing when it arrives. I know that trees, overhead wires, and bridges are toast. How cold does it have to be for it to freeze/stick and NOT melt on the roadways? Trying to plan work on Mon/Tue... maybe able to work... or might get trapped unable to get back home.



The ground has to be frozen for it to stick to roadways, which takes a long time at just below freezing temperatures. Dallas has been spared some nasty black ice incidents because the air temperature dropped to <30F, it rained/sleeted/snowed, but it didn't stay below freezing for very long and only some overpasses froze - briefly. A day-plus of <30F _daytime high_ temps before the precipitation and it's likely going to stick - especially if the sky was overcast the day prior. Sunlight also plays a big role in melting at air temperatures around freezing - Dallas had the infamous cobblestone ice that persisted for a week despite daytime high air temperatures rising above freezing for many days but the sun didn't much come out.

I have an unreasonable amount of experience driving on ice for a resident of the sunbelt - something about working in critical infrastructure and being expected to come to work regardless of the weather. 
If you have to drive on ice, take it slow, leave considerable margin, make every movement deliberate with as little _delta_ as possible, and avoid inclines if at all possible. On the latter point I got _incredibly lucky_ going on 20 years ago on a slope that was ~1:12 when I came to and going again without slipping - not an experience I recommend even with a manual transmission to help modulate power delivery.


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## turbodog (Feb 13, 2021)

Gonna be close then. Everything is pre-chilling ahead of time. Will be 21 the night before the ice arrives, daytime high 23, following night 6.


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## Poppy (Feb 13, 2021)

GORTEX:
In the early 1980's a couple of friends invited me to join them on a Snow Goose hunting trip with a professional guide. I had a mossberg stainless shotgun, so I was all in.
Rubber waiters from my dad, and a trip to a Cabella's / Outdoor's man, type sportsman's store, Ramsey Outdoor, and I got geared up.
The number ONE most important piece of gear was... a "Columbia Quad Parka". 
I didn't care if I even saw a goose. I didn't want to freeze to death. 

The temps were so cold that the salt water was freezing. I don't know what the wind chill was, but there was a steady wind at our backs. Thank God that when you hunt geese, you lie with the wind at your back, because when they land in a field of decoys, they come in against the wind.

The quad parka has a insulated hood.
The outer shell is Gortex that is totally wind and water proof.
There is a lightweight insulation sewn in.
Then there is a zip in insulation jacket.

Two or three layers of insulation wrapped in a wind and water proof, breathable outer shell, can not be beaten.

I was comfortable all day.

Ever since then every three or four years I buy a new three season coat. Always with a breathable wind/waterproof outer membrane, with a zip in insulation. My most recently replaced one is in the trunk of my car. I also have a few polyester fleece shirts that have come to the rescue more than five times.

Breathable wind and water proof outer shell, and multiple layers of insulation is the best way to go. If you get one with zippered under arm pits, for additional breathability, then you are getting -Top of the line.

An additional note: an adjustable hood is worth a little extra cost. Some can tighten around the face, or have a slight brim, that can be adjusted. Some hoods can be adjusted to make a custom fit for the person and the weather.


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## Poppy (Feb 13, 2021)

turbodog said:


> Gonna be close then. Everything is pre-chilling ahead of time. Will be 21 the night before the ice arrives, daytime high 23, following night 6.


Up North they will prepare the roads before the precipitation falls with salt water brine. It is my understanding that it keeps the ice from sticking as much to the roadway, so that it can be more easily plowed.

When the South gets hit with ice or snow, and multiple crashes are on the news, it is not uncommon to hear "Ah... they don't know how to drive in the snow." Certainly there is some truth to that, BUT, those who make those comments, don't appreciate the disparity between the Northern and Southern states regarding their ability to clear and treat the roads.

Freezing rain is the worst. In the late 1970's I was in Georgia, just North of Atlanta. The freezing rain was so slippery, that I pulled my car out of its parking spot. Drove about 200 feet, and parked it. This Jersey boy, had driven in all kinds of weather. It took three days before God had cleared the roadways.

I don't think they had salt spreaders at the time.

In Jersey, and I am sure other Northern, and central states, they prepped the roads, and salted them before they iced.

At any rate.

When the roads are icy or snowy, I'll do about 10 MPH, and slam on the brakes to see what the coefficient of friction I have, IE, how slippery the road is; How far will it take for me to stop. Sometimes I am surprised. I'll use this info to determine how fast I will go, and how much distance I'll give between me and the car in front of me. 

If things are really slippery, I never want to come to a full stop. I try to come to a traffic light while still rolling. Sometimes there will be a rise just before the light that has turned RED. Again, I'll try to keep rolling, but if there is a flat before the rise, I'll stop on the flat so that I can get a running start towards the rise.

Driving in ice and snow: My motto is.. go slow, and don't stop, especially on an incline.


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## Stress_Test (Feb 13, 2021)

Poppy said:


> orbital,
> great tips!
> 
> You may add a sleeping bag too (much warmer than a blanket), and cars get really cold if the engine isn't running.
> ...



Poppy, what do you use for line? A while back I bought 1/2 nylon rope from a place called "TW Evans Cordage" (from Amazon, 'cause local stores only sell cheap junk)

It's solid-braid type, 4000 lbs (I think) breaking strength. Kinda bulky to keep in the car though. Instead I have 50 ft of 7mm climber's "accessory cord" (nylon) tucked behind the seat.

At any rate, I live in a avg. size city, so if I'm in the ditch, I'll call the pros to get me out rather than trying to rig it myself  But I figured some good rope is nice to have on hand regardless.

Btw, a "space blanket" of some sort is another good car item I carry, but I've got both the pocket-sized emergency type, and a larger tarp version. It's heavier duty but still has the aluminum layer. Works really well, but doesn't breath at all so you gotta be careful not to end up all damp if you wrap up in it.


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## idleprocess (Feb 13, 2021)

Poppy said:


> When the South gets hit with ice or snow, and multiple crashes are on the news, it is not uncommon to hear "Ah... they don't know how to drive in the snow." Certainly there is some truth to that, BUT, those who make those comments, don't appreciate the disparity between the Northern and Southern states regarding their ability to clear and treat the roads.


The Highway Department periodically treats highways to help reduce ice adhesion/buildup. Municipalities have varying means to spread sand and/or remove ice.



Poppy said:


> Freezing rain is the worst.


It's insidious.



Poppy said:


> When the roads are icy or snowy, I'll do about 10 MPH, and slam on the brakes to see what the coefficient of friction I have, IE, how slippery the road is; How far will it take for me to stop. Sometimes I am surprised. I'll use this info to determine how fast I will go, and how much distance I'll give between me and the car in front of me.


My general mantra - if I can drive around in my neighborhood (no traffic, zero road treatment), it's very likely safe to drive on the major roads.

When I had a FWD car and the roads were iced over I'd do e-brake turns in my neighborhood for funsies into my driveway. There's a huge abandoned parking lot nearby (it's about the size of 4 football fields) that's great for hooliganism when it ices over - donuts, e-brake turns, Scandinavian flick, etc.


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## Poppy (Feb 13, 2021)

Stress_Test said:


> Poppy, what do you use for line? A while back I bought 1/2 nylon rope from a place called "TW Evans Cordage" (from Amazon, 'cause local stores only sell cheap junk)
> 
> It's solid-braid type, 4000 lbs (I think) breaking strength. Kinda bulky to keep in the car though. Instead I have 50 ft of 7mm climber's "accessory cord" (nylon) tucked behind the seat.
> 
> ...


Stress_Test
I have a 1/2 inch nylon line that I got at the Home Depot. Can't give you any specs, but I am sure that you are well served by what you are carrying.

I have a lot of stuff in my trunk that I didn't mention, and among that is a couple of space blankets. They are primarily for crash victims, so they don't go into shock. They do however have multiple survival uses. Undoubtedly, you are thinking ahead by carrying them in your car. :thumbsup:


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## Poppy (Feb 13, 2021)

idleprocess said:


> The Highway Department periodically treats highways to help reduce ice adhesion/buildup. Municipalities have varying means to spread sand and/or remove ice.
> 
> 
> It's insidious.
> ...


Texas is one of those Southern (mid western) states that gets its' share of winter storms. So it is more prepared than others. 
I like your mantra because in my experience it holds true in my area too.

Regarding playing in the snow:

When my son was on his driving permit...
We were at high school hockey practice, and while inside the rink, the snow came down significantly. 
When we left, I had him drive. In the snow. When stopped at a light, a father rolled down his window and asked... "Are you going to let him drive!?" 
Yes! 
(I would much prefer that he drive in the snow, for the first time under my direction, than on his own.)

I had him pass the entrance to our development, and instead directed him to the high school parking lot. There he did donuts, skids, stops, and slides.

A bonding moment? Yes. I heard him speak of it a few times to his friends.
Sometimes I do the right thing.


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## bykfixer (Feb 13, 2021)

turbodog said:


> So question...
> 
> We are forecast for .5" ice on Monday. The temp will already be below freezing when it arrives. I know that trees, overhead wires, and bridges are toast. How cold does it have to be for it to freeze/stick and NOT melt on the roadways? Trying to plan work on Mon/Tue... maybe able to work... or might get trapped unable to get back home.



A lot depends on the temps from the previous 24 hours or so. If it was as warm as say the 40's the pavement will be warm enough to melt the rain as it falls. Yesterday where I live we had freezing drizzle after an overnight snow with a high temp of 30 with clouds all day. When I arrived on my project the pavement had about 3 inches of snow on it. By 2:00 the snow had all melted. My infra-red temperature gun read 40 degrees. 

This morning at 6am my porch had a 1/4" of ice on it. At 8:30 the ice had melted even though the air temp was 30. 
My car is covered in ice but the road has puddles. Now had we had temps below freezing for the last few days things would probably be a lot worse but our temps were in the 40's.


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## Chauncey Gardiner (Feb 13, 2021)

This is certainly true for the greater Tacoma area -


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## AMD64Blondie (Feb 13, 2021)

Same here in Portland,OR.

This snow and ice is driving me crazy.

I've already had 2 Amazon Fresh deliveries canceled(had to reorder) because of the weather.

We had 8 inches of snow just since yesterday.


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## Lumen83 (Feb 13, 2021)

Poppy said:


> Up North they will prepare the roads before the precipitation falls with salt water brine. It is my understanding that it keeps the ice from sticking as much to the roadway, so that it can be more easily plowed.



This is true. I am relatively close to the Canadian border and the roads are treated pre-storm. It works very well. It is funny too because people from South of us always come up for skiing and snowmobiling and remark at how well our roads are taken care of even during huge storms compared to theirs. Also, 2 feet is a decent amount of snow but by no means considered a big storm or anything you would need to stay in or worry about. We got 4 feet of snow a couple months back in about 12 hours. Not snow drifts or snow banks. Just 4 feet of snow between midnight and noon time the next day. THAT was a big storm. People still went to work and went about their lives though. A lot of how impacting a storm is depends on how well the state/county/towns prepare, and how much of a budget they have to account for that type of weather.


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## bykfixer (Feb 13, 2021)

I call it pothole fertilizer. It works great but it's hard on pavements that have frequent freeze/thaw cycles. 

Where I live the freeze/thaw cycle is really hard on pavements. We have a section of I-64 the Feds use as a testing ground for some new ideas because they can get a decade worth of a freeze/thaw cycles for roads up north that stay frozen for weeks at a time in just one winter here. Say Buffalo NY or Atlanta GA where a roadway stays cold or stays warm will get a few freeze thaw cycles per winter. A portion of 64 between Charllottesvile and Williamsburg had at least one freeze/thaw cycle just about everyday this month while temps went from 20's to 30's or 40's almost each day. Today for example we has a low of 30 and high of 34. With a light snow all day that means it froze after midnight, thawed by mid-day and froze again after sun down. 

I've done projects with different asphalts over different surfaces like concrete or old pavements and done some experimental concretes that the Feds pay for and a Research Council keeps data for. 

We had a warm air mass over us today with a cold air mass below. Rain, rain, rain. Trouble was it was hitting stuff in the lower 30's so major power outages occured. So far I still have power and thankfully the rain has stopped. But I carried a flashlight with me all day at home when I usually don't because I have so many scattered about. But with each flicker of the lights or flat out turn off for a second or two I really expected it to be dark in my home at sundown. 

More rain is expected tomorrow but the temperature is expected to be in the 40's. So unless a tree falls over or ice covered branch snaps off we might just get through this one with power the whole time. 

God Bless the power workers.


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## turbodog (Feb 13, 2021)

So here's the warning from the state DOT. If they say 'travel nearly impossible'... would that mean they are expecting ice on surface streets/road and not just bridges?

Winter Storm Warning in effect from noon Sunday to 6 AM Tuesday. Heavy mixed precipitation expected. Total snow and sleet accumulations of up to 3 inches and ice accumulations of one quarter to one half of an inch. Portions of northeast Louisiana, central, east central, north central, northeast, northwest, south central, southwest and west central Mississippi and southeast Arkansas. From noon Sunday to 6 AM Tuesday. Power outages and tree damage are likely due to the ice. Travel could be nearly impossible. The hazardous conditions could impact the morning or evening commute. The cold wind chills as low as 5 below zero could result in hypothermia if precautions are not taken.


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## jtr1962 (Feb 14, 2021)

Tonight we had a little rain, which seems to have froze as soon as it hit any ground which didn't have snow on it. When I went out to bring the garbage pails back in the front stoop was glazed with ice. Had to be very careful walking. Supposed to be 35°F tomorrow so it should be gone. I'm not going out tomorrow anyway. No mail delivery, so no worries about the mail person slipping, either.


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## Poppy (Feb 14, 2021)

jtr1962,
I'm about 10 miles west of you and have similar conditions, maybe to a slightly less extent. Freezing mist. It is 23F currently and expected to go to 36F today. So after 10AM or so, the sun should heat the ground enough to take any ice away. 

turbodog,
"travel nearly impossible" says to me... stay at home cuddled up with your honey, with a hot toddy or two.

A 1/4 to 1/2 inch of ice, is significant, and if they don't have sufficient salt supply and equipment to deal with it, they may have to wait for God to take it away.


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## bykfixer (Feb 14, 2021)

My yard had a 1/2" layer of ice on it at sundown. The overnight was 29 but most of the ice is gone and the Junco birds are eating all of the grass seed I threw out ahead of the storm. By this afternoon they may be so fat they need a running start to fly. 

My front lawn looked like a bird sanctuary yesterday because while it was raining and ice kept building I tossed seeds out. Nijure, safflower, pumpkin, millet and peanuts since their typical food supply was being slowly coated with ice all day. We don't feed year round but when the weather gets rough we do.

When I lived in Greensboro NC we got a coating of ice up to 6"!! thick. It rained like a thunderstorm all afternoon and overnight while the outside air was in the 20's. It was sureal the next morning to see cars completely cemented under a 3-6" layer of clear coat. Of course the roads were ridiculous (I was told later). I ventured out of my apartment long enough to attempt to walk to the community mailbox. I made a few steps on the pavement and decided it wasn't worth it. 

I lived in a top floor apartment over looking much of the city and that evening when all the rain was falling no drops were dripping off tree branches. In the distance it seemed like I was a journalist in a hotel room 5 miles from a bombing campaign as power stations exploded. I'd see a big blue flash in the distance and a whole chunk of Christmas tree bulb dots turn dark. It was like you see on tv. Next day about half of NC was without electricity. At sundown I put a crock pot of chicken stew on and covered my hamsters cage with a thick blanket expecting the power to be out when I woke the next morning. I went to bed at 7:30 or 8:00 when I lived there most nights and woke at 3:am to watch the peaceful city from my balcony each morning. The next morning I smelled chicken stew. Huh? My living room light was still on. Huh? 

It turned out I lived in a bubble that did not lose power. I uncovered the hamster who was running in his wheel like nothing else mattered. That was probably the happiest moment of my time living in Greensoboro NC.


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## idleprocess (Feb 14, 2021)

Northeast DFW got about an inch of snow so far. Glad it wasn't ice. But it's still falling and the average Dallasite is bad enough driving in mere rain...


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## Stress_Test (Feb 14, 2021)

Well our weather forecasting is proving to be mostly useless as per usual.

On the one hand they've got big red banners proclaiming "Winter Storm Warning!! AHHHH!!!" and up to three tenths (0.3") ice. 

But on the other hand, their hourly forecast shows mostly rain and above-freezing temps through Tuesday. Maybe two hours with a chance of some mixed precip.

Who to believe? :shrug:


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## Poppy (Feb 14, 2021)

If the ground is below freezing temps, even if the air temp is above freezing, the ground may be cold enough to freeze the rain.


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## bykfixer (Feb 14, 2021)

It's raining here. But it's not. Everything is slowly melting so wires, trees, and anything horizontal has rain drops falling from it. I was looking out my door at a wire across the street with 6" ice-cicles hanging from it when……tadah, a 10 foot long swath of spikes let go…… like if you happened to be walking down the road at that instant a carpet bomb of 4oz spikes suddenly rained down. Yikes! 

Since I have large oak trees out front I put on a construction hard hat to put out the trash.


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## Chauncey Gardiner (Feb 14, 2021)

I've lived in Parkland since 1966. I know we've never received this much snow this late in the year.  

February made me shiver .... Bad news on the doorstep. I couldn't take one more step.







Doot doot doot lookin out my back door.


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## bigburly912 (Feb 14, 2021)

It’s that damned global warming acting up again


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## AMD64Blondie (Feb 14, 2021)

Another 2 inches of snow, topped of by a layer of ice.

Enough already!!!!!


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## Stress_Test (Feb 14, 2021)

Just a little safety reminder not to stand anywhere near big trees when this stuff is going on.






This was taken in Feb 2014; some neighbors had these lawn chairs and table out back. That branch probably came from something like 25ft or higher. Look at the base of the chair; the branch hit it so hard that it scooped out a hole in that hard ground when it hit. 

Imagine if someone had been sitting in that chair!


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## Poppy (Feb 14, 2021)

Stress_Test said:


> <SNIP>
> Imagine if someone had been sitting in that chair!


And we'd be singing... "Bye Bye Miss American pie!"
Right Chance?


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## turbodog (Feb 14, 2021)

Stress_Test said:


> Just a little safety reminder not to stand anywhere near big trees when this stuff is going on.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



There would probably not be a gouge in the lawn!


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## Stress_Test (Feb 14, 2021)

Well that's looking on the bright side I guess! lol


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## bykfixer (Feb 15, 2021)

I was trying to pin down exactly what took place over the weekend in a broad sense and it seems Mother Nature played a cruel joke on the US by dumping warm water onto frozen surfaces across the nation. 1998 was the last one I remember like this one in Virginia. I was off the grid at that point so I don't know how wide spread it was. 

Back in the late 70's we had one similar. I was in junior high school full of teenage ……well whatever teenagers were full of back then so I have no idea how bad that one was outside the bubble. I just remember we went to school, it did what it did and they closed the school but decided it was too dangerous for buses so I walked home……12 miles……in the rain……uphill both ways lol. Nah seriously it was about 4 miles and drizzling, but it was downhill mostly. The power company has done a great job of cutting limbs the last couple of years so most power outages were in big slices where a breaker failed or that sort of thing. One part replaced and like magic 3000 people had power restored. 
Nice. 

This year at the peak in my town about 1/2 were without power at mid-day Valentines day. By nightfall most had it back. 

Google calls it ice storm 2021.


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## Poppy (Feb 15, 2021)

Great picture bykfixer !

NYC deploys ice melting machines to get rid of tons of snow.

[video]https://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/snow-melting-machine-helping-clean-up-from-noreaster/2865777/[/video]


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## turbodog (Feb 15, 2021)

We are sort of locked in. Could get out if needed, but everyone else is staying in... so sort of pointless to try and do anything. Still have power and all utilities (so far).


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## idleprocess (Feb 15, 2021)

In the face of record cold causing demand to exceed generation/transmission capacity, Texas is going through rolling blackouts. I've yet to experience one (had a brief power outage yesterday likely related to a blown transformer for other local grids), but I gather they're typically 15-45 minutes long.

Thankfully, the snow on the ground looks to be just a dry powder so if I had to drive somewhere it wouldn't be as treacherous as slush or ice.


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## turbodog (Feb 15, 2021)

So my understanding is that we have about 3" of sleet/ice covered by 2" snow. When it's driven over, it will pack down, but since ground temps are low (15-20F) this will not thaw, creating this even worse slick/ice layer???


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## bykfixer (Feb 15, 2021)

Correct TD. 
People tend to drive over the tire tracks but the best traction is where there aren't tire tracks in snow.


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## jtr1962 (Feb 15, 2021)

I guess on the positive side this nasty weather at least is keeping people at home, which should help the pandemic situation. Unfortunately, the downside is many places are also slowing down vaccinations.


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## jabe1 (Feb 15, 2021)

We’re expecting somewhere around a foot of snow by tomorrow morning. Luckily, we have terrific snow removal and most residents are used to driving in the stuff.
I spoke to my daughter in Nashville an hour or so ago; she is a nurse and drives a keep. She went to work yesterday and it’s a good thing because most staff called in. It was her, one other nurse and two supervisors. The other nurse grew up in snow county and the supers didn’t have a choice.
this afternoon she was told to go home at about 3 for safety reasons or they were going to make her sleep there. While on the phone, she said she was passing a county snowplow driver on the freeway and he was driving slowly and looked terrified. 
Good luck down in the south. If you must go out, slow down, stay away from others, plan every move ahead of time and brake early! Ice doesn’t care if you have all wheel drive.


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## Poppy (Feb 15, 2021)

Now might be a good time to review the comments in the power outage thread.

https://www.candlepowerforums.com/v...ts-and-more)&p=4255226&viewfull=1#post4255226


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## turbodog (Feb 15, 2021)

We are sitting pretty in 3-5" of sleet with a dusting of snow on top. Apparently, air was cold enough we only got sleet, avoiding the freezing rain.

Relatives 90 miles away were not so lucky. They are warmer and received freezing rain. Trees are coming down like mad. The I-20 corridor is CLOSED due to trees/electrical lines and the DOT has determined mitigation too dangerous at night. 

To make matters worse, they are all electric. So no water pumping, lights, cell service, internet, heat, etc. Generator is running now, but with limited fuel and a carburetor gas leak... things are not good. A coffee can has been deployed to catch leaking fuel.


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## Chauncey Gardiner (Feb 15, 2021)

turbodog said:


> We are sitting pretty in 3-5" of sleet with a dusting of snow on top. Apparently, air was cold enough we only got sleet, avoiding the freezing rain.
> 
> Relatives 90 miles away were not so lucky. They are warmer and received freezing rain. Trees are coming down like mad. The I-20 corridor is CLOSED due to trees/electrical lines and the DOT has determined mitigation too dangerous at night.
> 
> To make matters worse, they are all electric. So no water pumping, lights, cell service, internet, heat, etc. *Generator is running* now, but with limited fuel and a *carburetor gas leak*... things are not good.* A coffee can has been deployed to catch leaking fuel*.



turbodog, That scenario has all kinds of red flags. Gasoline fumes and sparks .... well, I'm sure you're well aware.


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## Poppy (Feb 15, 2021)

Ah... and my thought was... I hope they are relatives you don't particularly like.

How long is it before they predict that temps will be above freezing?


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## turbodog (Feb 15, 2021)

Poppy said:


> Ah... and my thought was... I hope they are relatives you don't particularly like.
> 
> How long is it before they predict that temps will be above freezing?



There was no tree maintenance by power company... area is extremely hard hit. Basically their entire svc grid is down. Best we can hope for, thaw-wise, is Wednesday.

Well comms are currently down to these folk, travel is impossible also... unless I want a 90 mile ATV ride, so they are on their own... exploding generator and all. It is running on a wood deck... so fuel leaks fall to ground below and wind deals with the fumes pretty well. All things considered I'm more concerned about the lack of fuel reserves than the leak itself. Maybe the carb gaskets will swell up (was stored dry) and the leak will stop.


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## Stress_Test (Feb 15, 2021)

Well, earlier today the local forecast was predicting up to 0.5" of ice! But it turned out that the temp climbed into the mid-thirties before the rain started, then it just rained all day and we didn't get snow or freezing rain. Good thing it turned into a non-event for us though, because we're supposed to have a couple of days with temps in the teens, and I didn't relish the thought of going through that with no power.


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## Chauncey Gardiner (Feb 15, 2021)

turbodog said:


> There was no tree maintenance by power company... area is extremely hard hit. Basically their entire svc grid is down. Best we can hope for, thaw-wise, is Wednesday.
> 
> Well comms are currently down to these folk, travel is impossible also... unless I want a 90 mile ATV ride, so they are on their own... exploding generator and all. It is running on a wood deck... so fuel leaks fall to ground below and wind deals with the fumes pretty well. All things considered I'm more concerned about the lack of fuel reserves than the leak itself. Maybe the carb gaskets will swell up (was stored dry) and the leak will stop.



Thank you for putting my mind at ease.


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## Poppy (Feb 15, 2021)

turbodog said:


> There was no tree maintenance by power company... area is extremely hard hit. Basically their entire svc grid is down. Best we can hope for, thaw-wise, is Wednesday.
> 
> Well comms are currently down to these folk, travel is impossible also... unless I want a 90 mile ATV ride, so they are on their own... exploding generator and all. It is running on a wood deck... so fuel leaks fall to ground below and wind deals with the fumes pretty well. All things considered I'm more concerned about the lack of fuel reserves than the leak itself. Maybe the carb gaskets will swell up (was stored dry) and the leak will stop.


Comms are down... that really stinks.

Hopefully they were good neighbors, and they can shelter in place with other neighbors for a couple of days if necessary.
Maybe move their gennie to a neighbors house who uses gas or oil for heat, but doesn't have electricity for lights, or to power the heat blower or hot water pumps.

People working together can work anything out.
Let's hope that they are smart enough to work it out.


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## Lynx_Arc (Feb 16, 2021)

It has been very cold here... record lows last night about -2 degrees and tonight forecast -9 degrees and I already had one pipe freeze but hasn't broken (yet). Tomorrow it is supposed to snow more we already have 3-4 inches of snow on the ground and another 4-8 inches expected also. We have had ice also luckily I have some salt left over from 10 years ago it was so slippery out that I decided not to go anywhere at all not worth wrecking a vehicle when you can just stay home another day. This weekend we should completely thaw out with a high around 50 I may pass out from being overheated as I've gotten somewhat accustomed to below freezing for over a week now so cold out even goretex gloves aren't warm enough when dry and my feet in shoes get cold quickly. I think my gas bill will be extreme next month.


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## bykfixer (Feb 16, 2021)

One of the power companies in my state started a program in the 2010's of buying small tracts of land across the country side in order to install lines underground and replace age-ed over head lines. This year it seems to have paid off for the customer and the power company. The cost of replacing lines for a handful of customers is down while those customers have less outages. 
It also frees up crews to restore service to more populated areas.


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## orbital (Feb 16, 2021)

+

Truly hope emergency planners & city officials in the south are taking bold steps to close ANY larger buildings 
& have those thermostats set to 52F. *Until further notice.


RE: potentially frozen pipes in homes, shut off water main valve & disconnect power to that water system until you have a thaw,
this could save you in the biggest way,, 

I understand no water is the hardest thing, but burst pipes are far worse.
*


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## Poppy (Feb 16, 2021)

orbital said:


> +
> 
> Truly hope emergency planners & city officials in the south are taking bold steps to close ANY larger buildings
> & have those thermostats set to 52F. *Until further notice.
> ...



If you are on city water, you might consider letting water drip from the faucets a little bit. If you are going to leave the house due to no heat, then shutting off the main, and draining the system, may prevent frozen/burst pipes. Burst pipes in the wall, can make quite a mess after they thaw.

RV antifreeze, can be poured into sinks, toilets, and bath-tub drains.


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## orbital (Feb 16, 2021)

Poppy said:


> If you are on city water, you might consider letting water drip from the faucets a little bit. If you are going to leave the house due to no heat, then shutting off the main, and draining the system, may prevent frozen/burst pipes. Burst pipes in the wall, can make quite a mess after they thaw.
> 
> RV antifreeze, can be poured into sinks, toilets, and bath-tub drains.



+

*RV antifreeze 

*We can have thread after thread about disasters & emergency backups this & that, planning ect..
I bet there are only a handful of people _down south_ who have a few gallons of RV antifreeze on hand, for this exact situation.

..but alot of D cell batteries


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## ledbetter (Feb 16, 2021)

Reading threads like this reminds me why my grandparents moved from places like New York and Utah and settled in California, and I’m thankful. No burst pipes, no toxic antifreeze down the drains, no carbon monoxide poisoning, no snow tires, no shoveling or slipping, and no death by falling branch. Yeah, we get ridiculed for taxes and nutty behavior, but today I’m biking and playing tennis. Good luck to those hearty souls enduring real winters.


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## idleprocess (Feb 16, 2021)

The electrical power situation in TX has gotten pretty bad. ERCOT normally reports >70GW of capacity but the past couple of days it's been <50GW with margins well below the acceptable minimum of 4GW. Rolling blackouts - and just plain equipment failure blackouts - are happening statewide in the face of record-shattering cold.


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## jabe1 (Feb 16, 2021)

ledbetter said:


> Reading threads like this reminds me why my grandparents moved from places like New York and Utah and settled in California, and I’m thankful. No burst pipes, no toxic antifreeze down the drains, no carbon monoxide poisoning, no snow tires, no shoveling or slipping, and no death by falling branch. Yeah, we get ridiculed for taxes and nutty behavior, but today I’m biking and playing tennis. Good luck to those hearty souls enduring real winters.



You get forest fires, mudslides and drought. We have almost no natural disasters here, and all the fresh water we’ll ever need. Just cold and gray for a few months.
As an added benefit, the cold kills off many of the insects each season.


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## nbp (Feb 16, 2021)

jabe1 said:


> You get forest fires, mudslides and drought. We have almost no natural disasters here, and all the fresh water we’ll ever need. Just cold and gray for a few months.
> As an added benefit, the cold kills off many of the insects each season.



I totally agree. Don’t forget earthquakes. And hurricanes and flooding on the other coast. The midwest is overall quite safe. Inconvenient at times, perhaps, but rarely dangerous. Even tornados are pretty rare here in WI.


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## Chauncey Gardiner (Feb 16, 2021)

One wonders how ledbetter's grandparents feel about California's homeless/drug addicts/ sidewalks covered with hypodermic needles and excrement.


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## ledbetter (Feb 16, 2021)

Chauncey Gardiner said:


> One wonders how ledbetter's grandparents feel about California's homeless/drug addicts/ sidewalks covered with hypodermic needles and excrement.


Silly and trite stereotypes no doubt gleaned from fox fake news. My long deceased grandparents were very proud of the lives they built for their families and I just sweep aside all those hypodermic needles before I play tennis.


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## turbodog (Feb 16, 2021)

idleprocess said:


> The electrical power situation in TX has gotten pretty bad. ERCOT normally reports >70GW of capacity but the past couple of days it's been <50GW with margins well below the acceptable minimum of 4GW. Rolling blackouts - and just plain equipment failure blackouts - are happening statewide in the face of record-shattering cold.



But why the drop in 20gw of capacity? If extreme heat I could understand as they might not be able to cool equipment properly.


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## turbodog (Feb 16, 2021)

We are still snug as a bug w/ all amenities. Wife managed to _carefully_ make it to work this early am. It continues to snow as I type this.

Family A continues to struggle with no utilities of any type and a leaking generator.

Family B felt smug and failed to store water... the power failed to the pumping station. Now they have no water, no drinking, no washing, no FLUSHING. They are getting a bucket and walking to the neighbor's pond for flush water.


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## idleprocess (Feb 16, 2021)

turbodog said:


> But why the drop in 20gw of capacity? If extreme heat I could understand as they might not be able to cool equipment properly.



I gather that the thin margins on capacity vs demand in a dynamic situation caused some plants to go offline.


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## Lynx_Arc (Feb 16, 2021)

I just got notices from both gas and electric companies here. The gas company is struggling to keep up with demand and may run low on gas causing outages while the electric company is saying they are going to implement rolling 2 hour outages and both want people to reduce your thermostat and usage. I had to turn mine up because I already have 1 frozen pipe and it is not going to make it to even 20 degrees in the daytime till Thursday here and not out of freezing at all till Friday I think they are saying 34 degrees Friday which isn't going to help a lot as it drops down to 20 at night again.


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## turbodog (Feb 16, 2021)

idleprocess said:


> I gather that the thin margins on capacity vs demand in a dynamic situation caused some plants to go offline.



It's all over fark.com...

Equipment failures, lack of winternization:
https://www.bizjournals.com/dallas/news/2021/02/15/dallas-winter-storm-freeze.html

And more:
https://arstechnica.com/science/2021/02/texas-power-grid-crumples-under-the-cold


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## jtr1962 (Feb 16, 2021)

nbp said:


> I totally agree. Don’t forget earthquakes. And hurricanes and flooding on the other coast. The midwest is overall quite safe. Inconvenient at times, perhaps, but rarely dangerous. Even tornados are pretty rare here in WI.


The hurricanes and flooding are less of an issue the further north you go. NYC gets a bad one once in a while, but it's not an annual thing like in the southeast. Biggest weather issue here as far as I'm concerned are the hot and humid summers. And the insects that come with it. At least from mid-fall through late spring there's no insect problem.


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## idleprocess (Feb 16, 2021)

turbodog said:


> It's all over fark.com...
> 
> Equipment failures, lack of winternization:
> https://www.bizjournals.com/dallas/news/2021/02/15/dallas-winter-storm-freeze.html
> ...



Some back-of-the-napkin math suggests that the astronomical $9,000 / MWh pricing is netting generators something to the tune of $10 *Billion* _a day_ in hypothetical revenue. I'd hope they can ruggedize the heck out of the grid for that kind of money.

But in reality I suspect they're only going to collect a small fraction of that since the utilities will be bankrupted many times over and such pricing failed to 'incentivize' additional supply to meet demand.


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## Stress_Test (Feb 16, 2021)

turbodog said:


> ....
> Family B felt smug and failed to store water... the power failed to the pumping station. Now they have no water, no drinking, no washing, no FLUSHING. They are getting a bucket and walking to the neighbor's pond for flush water.



I bet most people don't think about the water problem during an electrical outage. During our 5-day power outage in 2012, we were lucky enough to still have water service (in my area at least), but by the third day there was some worried discussions on the radio about losing water supply once the reservoirs were empty and couldn't be pumped up again.

I already had about 6 gallons of drinking water in the fridge, and after the first day I filled a few more empty milk jug leftovers just for good measure.

Now I also keep two 5 gallon plastic jerry cans full of water in addition to the stuff in the fridge.


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## idleprocess (Feb 16, 2021)

Despite insulating caps, my outdoor hose spigots froze _(surprise, surprise, said caps are really only meant for brief cold snaps that merely dip below freezing)_. I first attempted a few minutes oil lantern flame - left a nice coating of soot but didn't do a thing. Next I broke out the heat gun _(hair dryer)_ which worked like a champ. Went to address the other one and my failure to fully close it seemed to have remedied the problem. Stuffed the caps with some plastic bags to improve their nominal R-value and am content that I at least don't have burst pipes.


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## turbodog (Feb 16, 2021)

idleprocess said:


> Despite insulating caps, my outdoor hose spigots froze _(surprise, surprise, said caps are really only meant for brief cold snaps that merely dip below freezing)_. I first attempted a few minutes oil lantern flame - left a nice coating of soot but didn't do a thing. Next I broke out the heat gun _(hair dryer)_ which worked like a champ. Went to address the other one and my failure to fully close it seemed to have remedied the problem. Stuffed the caps with some plastic bags to improve their nominal R-value and am content that I at least don't have burst pipes.



We used the styrofoam filled plastic caps under normal situations. I wrapped a towel around those, applied electrical tape to hold in place, wrapped a plastic trash bag over that, and more tape. Held down to 6F last night.


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## idleprocess (Feb 16, 2021)

turbodog said:


> We used the styrofoam filled plastic caps under normal situations. I wrapped a towel around those, applied electrical tape to hold in place, wrapped a plastic trash bag over that, and more tape. Held down to 6F last night.



I'm pretty lousy with bits of leftover styrofoam insulation - might fashion some boxes with multiple strata for future use since those caps have brief service lives anyway.


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## Slumber (Feb 16, 2021)

I wonder if bubble wrap would be a good insulator for hose spigots? 
I grabbed a couple of handfuls of blown attic insulation and stuffed it into one gallon ziplock bags. I taco folded one bag over each spigot and let it drip. So far no freezing.


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## bykfixer (Feb 16, 2021)

Don't forget if your pump is out you have a water heater tank full to flush the toilet, brush your teeth and other needs.


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## jabe1 (Feb 16, 2021)

Slumber Pass said:


> I wonder if bubble wrap would be a good insulator for hose spigots?
> I grabbed a couple of handfuls of blown attic insulation and stuffed it into one gallon ziplock bags. I taco folded one bag over each spigot and let it drip. So far no freezing.



You don’t have interior shut offs for the outside spigots?
When it gets cold up here, we shut them
off and open them to allow for expansion.
I’m pretty stunned to hear that no one bothers to insulate homes down there; it also helps keep the heat out and cold in.


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## turbodog (Feb 16, 2021)

jabe1 said:


> ...
> I’m pretty stunned to hear that no one bothers to insulate homes down there; it also helps keep the heat out and cold in.



Don't know how you came away with that.


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## Slumber (Feb 16, 2021)

jabe1 said:


> You don’t have interior shut offs for the outside spigots?
> When it gets cold up here, we shut them
> off and open them to allow for expansion.
> I’m pretty stunned to hear that no one bothers to insulate homes down there; it also helps keep the heat out and cold in.



My home is pretty well insulated, but no shut off valves for outside spigots. I don't know anyone who has them. A prolonged freeze like this is rare in South Texas.


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## nbp (Feb 17, 2021)

I guess I never thought about it - is it primarily electric heat in the south? I suppose that’s why the cold crashes the power grid. Here in the north heat is natural gas, propane, or possibly fuel oil in an old house. Never worry about power outages in cold weather. Learn new things all the time! Sorry to hear of so many dealing with things they are (understandably) not prepared for.


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## turbodog (Feb 17, 2021)

nbp said:


> I guess I never thought about it - is it primarily electric heat in the south? I suppose that’s why the cold crashes the power grid. Here in the north heat is natural gas, propane, or possibly fuel oil in an old house. Never worry about power outages in cold weather. Learn new things all the time! Sorry to hear of so many dealing with things they are (understandably) not prepared for.



Yes. And I've lived with it long enough to not think to mention it.

Most rural are electric only... some will have a propane tank, but that's rare. Heat pump for HVAC needs. Elec water heating. And if you are far enough out, elec deep well pump also. So no electricity = end of civilization.

Some of the suburbs have nat gas heat.

But, that said, I think TX's problems are (for what I read) related to problems with natural gas facilities NOT being properly winterized.

The 'south' overall actually does quite well for electricity capacity (and pricing also). For a while, MS had the lowest KWH prices in the nation. We get a fair bit of our power from a nuke plant on the MS river. If us dumb old rednecks can manage to NOT blow ourselves up... it should be fine for everyone else.


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## idleprocess (Feb 17, 2021)

nbp said:


> I guess I never thought about it - is it primarily electric heat in the south? I suppose that’s why the cold crashes the power grid. Here in the north heat is natural gas, propane, or possibly fuel oil in an old house. Never worry about power outages in cold weather. Learn new things all the time! Sorry to hear of so many dealing with things they are (understandably) not prepared for.



When the climate extreme to design around is ~6 months of withering heat and but a handful of days below freezing per year, electric heat makes sense from a cost perspective. Some heating elements inline with the HVAC is far cheaper than a gas furnace. In places with gas in the south, furnaces are also sized for similar assumptions; in my case mine has been able to keep up, but had temperatures gone below zero I'm not sure it would have been adequate.

I also suspect there are also some non-HVAC thermal design changes in structures between regions that make them perform better for the regional extremes but worse in the opposite extreme.



turbodog said:


> But, that said, I think TX's problems are (for what I read) related to problems with natural gas facilities NOT being properly winterized.


Just about everything related to power production and transmission wasn't properly winterized. TL;DR : Federal standards mandate this sort of thing, ERCOT's standards don't.


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## Slumber (Feb 17, 2021)

I've been very blessed not to lose power this week. My gas furnace is powered by electricity and from the little bit I've researched, running a modern furnace from a generator can fry the electronics if not grounded correctly. Other than installing a gas space heater or my gas fireplace, I'm not sure how else I'd heat my home. 
This weather is rare though. As of 10pm last night we were at 95 hours below freezing (photo was from the 4pm) with 109 being the record.


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## bykfixer (Feb 17, 2021)

The radio says round 3 headed towards central VA. The forecast is a bit more dire to areas just west of the capital city, which in some respects makes sense as city landscape tends to hold heat a bit longer that the country side. 

And as per usual my area could go either way with just 1 or 2 degees up or down. Down brings snow. Up brings rain, but forecast is for a rain that don't drip. Ugh!


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## Lynx_Arc (Feb 17, 2021)

Slumber Pass said:


> This weather is rare though. As of 10pm last night we were at 95 hours below freezing (photo was from the 4pm) with 109 being the record.


I saw on the news that we are 210 hours or so not above 22 degrees here and the forecast is not above freezing till Friday. I had a pipe freeze but finally it is working now but I need to crawl under the house and inspect the pipe to make sure it isn't damaged and needs to be replaced. I just shoveled snow again for the second day in a row we got another 4 inches or so I think but it is officially above 22 so the 210 hours is going to stay that way but at only 26 it is still below freezing but close enough if you clear snow off sidewalks and driveways they melt the rest and start to dry out the water on them hopefully so there isn't enough to make a nasty ice patch.


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## turbodog (Feb 17, 2021)

Slumber Pass said:


> I've been very blessed not to lose power this week. My gas furnace is powered by electricity and from the little bit I've researched, running a modern furnace from a generator can fry the electronics if not grounded correctly. Other than installing a gas space heater or my gas fireplace, I'm not sure how else I'd heat my home.
> This weather is rare though. As of 10pm last night we were at 95 hours below freezing (photo was from the 4pm) with 109 being the record.



I've run my 'intelligent' hvac/furnace from a variety of generators over the years. No problems so far, but it WAS grounded via the normal electrical ground in the panel(s).


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## turbodog (Feb 17, 2021)

idleprocess said:


> ... In places with gas in the south, furnaces are also sized for similar assumptions; in my case mine has been able to keep up, but had temperatures gone below zero I'm not sure it would have been adequate....



Mine kept up w/o problem also... cycling off/on as needed. My main thought, since it is a condensing furnace, was would the exhaust be hot enough to NOT freeze. So far, no problems down to ~6F.

FYI, the exhaust exits the unit in a plain pvc pipe... not a metal one, just like a 3" pipe. It's barely warm and quite humid.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Furnace#Condensing


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## Poppy (Feb 18, 2021)

Regarding freezing pipes:
I've used heat tape on incoming water pipes that were in an uninsulated area.

It's like an electrically heated extension cord that is thermostatically controlled. Wrap it around the exposed pipe, and wrap that with insulation, and plug it in. Works like a charm.


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## bykfixer (Feb 18, 2021)

Winter storm Viola is making it's way up the coast. 
Yall be safe out there. It's pretty dicey in its footprints.


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## jabe1 (Feb 18, 2021)

We can land something on Mars but can’t keep power on in Texas.


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## turbodog (Feb 18, 2021)

jabe1 said:


> We can land something on Mars but can’t keep power on in Texas.



We could if each person was willing to pay a billion dollars for electricity. I would hand deliver the electrons myself.


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## Poppy (Feb 18, 2021)

jabe1 said:


> We can land something on Mars but can’t keep power on in Texas.


I'm guessing that those power managers had nothing to do with the planning or implementing of putting a rover on Mars!

But I am only guessing!


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## idleprocess (Feb 19, 2021)

turbodog said:


> We could if each person was willing to pay a billion dollars for electricity. I would hand deliver the electrons myself.



If my understanding of the ERCOT marketplace is correct, the generators are theoretically pulling in $9000 per MWh produced when the usual going rate is $30/MWh. Quick math says that sums something to the tune of $10 - $15 _Billion_ dollars _a day_. If they collect any large chunk of that money, it will bankrupt utilities _(the marketing/financial entities that collect money from customers then buy power and distribution)_ which will promptly roll downhill to ratepayers. And I bet they _still_ won't be bothered to winterize or otherwise make the grid more reliable.

EDIT: A correction is in order. The $9000/MWh price for wholesale electricity was the _spot price_ and I gather the bulk of electricity sold under long-term contracts at something closer to the normal $30/MWh price. Utilities will still take a shellacking but it won't be anywhere near as bad as my (incorrect) figures above suggest.


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## bykfixer (Feb 19, 2021)

Hope everybody is doing ok post Viola. 

Here weather forecasters had us biting our nails over how thick the freezing rain would coat the area. Some parts got more than predicted, some got less. I was in the less portion. Partly because of how the heavy parts of Viola tracked and partly due to a neat trick Mother Nature pulled…… instead of being 31 or 32 all day it got up to 33 around 10 in the morning. So the rain did not "stick" to everything like predicted. By 2pm it was a balmy 34 and what remained of the little glass layer over trees and wires had melted. 

I kept an eye on a live radar hoping to see the pinks and purples (ice) turn to blue (snow) as it went north so that folks would be getting snow instead of ice north of DC where it was not that balmy 34 we were basking in. It was nice to see the storm did seem to be losing steam as it whizzed up the coast. 

The forecast was still calling for it all night long but radar showed it had passed by. So what did they know that radar did not show? Around 6pm a little dot showed up over Alabama. An hour later the little dot was a cluster about 1/4 the size of my state over Charlotte NC and heading straight towards my area. I thought "Vwa-Laa! No wait……vie-ola. So we woke to a glaze over everything this morning but the ice was not so much that the birds couldn't reach the seeds we tossed onto the yard and sidewalk last evening. 

And so for some Viola was a bust. For some not so much. Here's hoping luck favors the prepared this morning and the not-so prepared as well.


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## Chauncey Gardiner (Feb 19, 2021)

2020 has certainly left a bad taste in 2021's mouth. I'm heartbroken for all you folks suffering from this harsh February weather. Stay strong.


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## bykfixer (Feb 19, 2021)

A coworker was e-showing me his new generator he is very proud of. He said "man I got 50 gallons of gasoline ready to go"… "50 gallons, what are you going to do with all the leftover?" He reminded me he drives a big ole Chevy truck to and from truck saying "pfft, that's going to fill up my truck next week"……oh yeah


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## Lynx_Arc (Feb 19, 2021)

We got a warmup today above freezing for the first time in close to 2 weeks but I went outside and used a laser thermometer to check temps under the house it is still in the low 20s there so more dripping water going on. There is a voluntary boil water now as water pressure is low in some places due to broken water mains.


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## Stress_Test (Feb 20, 2021)

When everything is back to normal (hopefully soon!), we really ought to do a type of "Lessons Learned" thread.

Might be old hat to some of the more experienced people here, but there's always new folks who could benefit from reviewing useful tips, plans, tricks, things that worked, and things that didn't.

I read articles today about the Texas water outage situation, and was reminded again how critical it is to have an emergency water supply. It only takes what, 3 days on average to die of dehydration? 

And if the municipal water supply is down for a week, that means all those people are just days away from death if they can't get water to them somehow. And if the roads are covered in snow and ice, they can't drive to any store.... etc etc. Bad situation all around.


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## scout24 (Feb 20, 2021)

I'll admit suprise at the situation in Texas. Given the history with hurricane damage and subsequent outages I would think the level of personal preparedness would be higher. Not to say you can be ready for everything, but the power outages and water/food would seem to be a common theme across disasters. A little prep goes a long way. Stress test- I like your thread idea.


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## turbodog (Feb 20, 2021)

Stress_Test said:


> When everything is back to normal (hopefully soon!), we really ought to do a type of "Lessons Learned" thread.
> 
> ...



It's already been done.

This thread can be a little confusing as it was half a dozen or so ones that got merged (grrrr) into one.

https://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?241581-Master-thread-for-disasters-and-generators

This is more cohesive.

https://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?139218-disaster-ready


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## scout24 (Feb 20, 2021)

Nice find on the "disaster ready" thread, turbodog. It's in General Flashlight Discussion right now, probably worth bringing it over to here in the Café and bumping it. Seems the old info there is largely relevant still...


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## bykfixer (Feb 20, 2021)

scout24 said:


> I'll admit suprise at the situation in Texas. Given the history with hurricane damage and subsequent outages I would think the level of personal preparedness would be higher. Not to say you can be ready for everything, but the power outages and water/food would seem to be a common theme across disasters. A little prep goes a long way. Stress test- I like your thread idea.



I'm listening to two radio hosts debate why Texans were without power. Pretty interesting to hear what and why from Texans.


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## idleprocess (Feb 20, 2021)

bykfixer said:


> I'm listening to two radio hosts debate why Texans were without power. Pretty interesting to hear what and why from Texans.



Failure to winterize power stations/transmission equipment + laughably inadequate interconnects with other grids.


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## bykfixer (Feb 20, 2021)

Well according to one of the guests it goes back to the 1980's…… when certain ideas began to pop up as rules and regulations.


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## Chauncey Gardiner (Feb 20, 2021)

bykfixer said:


> Well according to one of the guests it goes back to the 1980's…… when certain ideas began to pop up as rules and regulations.



The editorial board of the Wall Street Journal chimed in on this a few days ago. 

https://www.wsj.com/articles/a-deep-green-freeze-11613411002?mod=searchresults_pos2&page=1 

Further discussion can continued unabridged in the Wine Cellar.  Up top, not so much.


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## turbodog (Feb 20, 2021)

scout24 said:


> Nice find on the "disaster ready" thread, turbodog. It's in General Flashlight Discussion right now, probably worth bringing it over to here in the Café and bumping it. Seems the old info there is largely relevant still...



yup


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## bykfixer (Feb 20, 2021)

It's probably a good time to go back in history and study how the human race managed to survive until the industrial age in summer and winter. 

In our recent freezing rain event my neighbor brought home a "light plant", which in essence is a diesel generator to light up 4 very bright flood lamps. I asked was he concerned about pipes freezing. He responded "naw man I'm more concerned with missing Sports Center"…… I chuckled and responded "first world problems" to which he actually replied "wutchu mean man?" The guy was serious. He did not understand my point. 

My wife's oldest called her ranting "my wi-fi is out, what am I supposed to do now?"……she busted out laughing and said "I suppose it's time to work on that jigsaw puzzle your brother gave you for Christmas". 

Now on the opposite end of the life cycle, my wife helps out an elderly man whose wife passed not long ago. He lost power so we had him over to our house. He had on a windbreaker jacket with a long sleeve t-shirt and a thin stocking cap (and no gloves) in his cold house and was shivering. Here in a state that averages in the 20's at night during winter this man did not own a warm coat. We made sure when he left that he had a warm coat, a double layer stocking cap and insulated gloves. His power returned around the time he left. 

It just surprises me how many people are so ill prepared for a normal day 150 years ago……shoot in large parts of America less than 100 years ago there was no electricity or running water to many homes. My brothers house was built in 1911 and had the first bathroom installed in the 1960's. They just went next door back then. 

Now that the wave after wave of storms seems to have let up on the mid Atlantic to NE America snowmageden 021 will hopefully be a story like the blizzard of 2000 was to us south of the Mason Dixon line. My first world problem was keeping a big ole peace lily plant my company sent when my brother passed away above 60 degrees if we had lost power. I suppose I'd carry it to my neighbors house and tell him it'll clean the air in his living room while he watches Sports Center.


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## idleprocess (Feb 20, 2021)

bykfixer said:


> It just surprises me how many people are so ill prepared for a normal day 150 years ago



About once a year I experience a power outage when I'm at home. For the first ten seconds or so I'm annoyed at the disappearance of that foundation of the 21st century. After that I hit acceptance and start to adjust and adapt. I often find myself struck at how modernity separates us from that which is more natural: modern homes are poorly suited to go without electric light and climate control, the sounds of the outdoors are muted by our technology, and one can easily lose track of the time of day.

If an outage happens during the day, I've noticed that within about 5 minutes some large fraction of the neighborhood will wander outside in confusion, as if to wonder if they forgot to pay their electric bill then simultaneously relieved _yet more disturbed_ to learn it's an outage. But they too start to adapt to the more natural condition of pre-21st century life and converse with the neighbors they might now know so well. Children naturally gravitate outside under these conditions and play. Some can't cope and retreat indoors, but the 21st century has been paused and they seem to find it less comforting than hoped and tend to wander back outside.

I will say that for a region that experiences blistering 6-month long summers and not too infrequent freezing temperatures it never ceases to amaze me how large a percentage of the able-bodied population _refuses to acclimate_. Early every summer I force myself to be outside some during the heat of the day to get over the largely emotional reaction to the heat and re-learn that initial early discomfort with the heat, sunlight, and humidity _is not danger_. Similar story every winter - venture outside with a T-shirt when it's in the lower 40s to re-learn that goosebumps and slight shivering aren't going to hurt me. I had gotten so used to sub-20F temps this week that I opted to shovel the slush off my driveway and walk on Thursday wearing just jeans and a T-shirt at temps just above freezing with no real discomfort _(the sun was, there was no wind, and I was staying active)_ - suspect any neighbors watching felt concern about my well-being and mental faculties.


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## Lynx_Arc (Feb 20, 2021)

scout24 said:


> I'll admit suprise at the situation in Texas. Given the history with hurricane damage and subsequent outages I would think the level of personal preparedness would be higher. Not to say you can be ready for everything, but the power outages and water/food would seem to be a common theme across disasters. A little prep goes a long way. Stress test- I like your thread idea.



Here in my state we got caught off guard a little too. I've lived her all my life and it hasn't been this cold that I can remember back to my teens/early 20s that is 2 generations ago and we had a lot of water mains break due to the cold here I'm not surprised that Texas which is typically about 5-10 degrees warmer or more was caught off guard to. The Ice storm of 2007 caused more trouble than this cold did. I commented about 2 years ago at a Walmart store the lack of windshield washer solution that was rated below 0 I always buy it that is -20 degrees for 2 reasons: 1) it won't freeze around here and 2) the lower temp than needed will help melt ice on the windshield better.


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## jtr1962 (Feb 21, 2021)

More trouble for some Texans, as if they didn't have enough already:

https://news.yahoo.com/lights-stayed-during-texas-storm-160028286.html

NY tried the energy service companies model on the theory competition would drive down electric prices. It never worked that way. Now the idea is largely considered a failure. Most people went back to having the utility sell them electric. Even worse, you were constantly bombarded with phone calls and door-to-door salespeople trying to get you to switch to their company. Texas just learned their lesson the hard way. At least power is restored for most people but now you have the drinking water situation.


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## jtr1962 (Feb 21, 2021)

idleprocess said:


> If my understanding of the ERCOT marketplace is correct, the generators are theoretically pulling in $9000 per MWh produced when the usual going rate is $30/MWh. Quick math says that sums something to the tune of $10 - $15 _Billion_ dollars _a day_. If they collect any large chunk of that money, it will bankrupt utilities _(the marketing/financial entities that collect money from customers then buy power and distribution)_ which will promptly roll downhill to ratepayers. And I bet they _still_ won't be bothered to winterize or otherwise make the grid more reliable.


With the amount of outrage over the large bills some people are getting, my guess is they won't collect a fraction of that. They'll probably also have to refund most of the money to those who already paid. These contracts seem predatory, where your rate can skyrocket to 50 times normal without you even being given a warning in case you want to turn off your power until rates drop to normal.


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## turbodog (Feb 21, 2021)

So the moral of the story is to move to TX where the sun shines brightly and buy a solar setup w/ diesel generator backup!


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## jtr1962 (Feb 21, 2021)

turbodog said:


> So the moral of the story is to move to TX where the sun shines brightly and buy a solar setup w/ diesel generator backup!


Exactly, except with surplus batteries readily available for under $100 per kW-hr I'd just go with a large backup battery, as opposed to the diesel generator. Honestly, even here in the northeast that would work. I'd just need to size the battery to get through a worst case number of cloudy days. Also, since we have a natural gas line, if I had to get a generator I'd go with a natural gas one. For our needs, the smallest 7.5 kW generator is more than adequate. In fact, if a 5 kW version existed, that would still be more than adequate.


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## idleprocess (Feb 21, 2021)

jtr1962 said:


> With the amount of outrage over the large bills some people are getting, my guess is they won't collect a fraction of that. They'll probably also have to refund most of the money to those who already paid. These contracts seem predatory, where your rate can skyrocket to 50 times normal without you even being given a warning in case you want to turn off your power until rates drop to normal.



My math in the post you've quoted is incorrect and I've since corrected it.

Customers on traditional fixed-rate electric plans (average around $0.10/kWh) won't see a significant change to their bills. Customers on variable-rate plans pegged to the wholesale _spot market_ price of electricity have seen rates as high as *>$9.00/kWh* and are a tad incensed - insult to injury being that the price was artificially held at that level by PUC/ERCOT edict for many days.



turbodog said:


> So the moral of the story is to move to TX where the sun shines brightly and buy a solar setup w/ diesel generator backup!





jtr1962 said:


> Exactly, except with surplus batteries readily available for under $100 per kW-hr I'd just go with a large backup battery, as opposed to the diesel generator. Honestly, even here in the northeast that would work. I'd just need to size the battery to get through a worst case number of cloudy days. Also, since we have a natural gas line, if I had to get a generator I'd go with a natural gas one.



Electric power has historically been quite reliable in the DFW area. I've lived here for more than 30 years and have experienced one outage of about 8 hours, another of about 4, and a ~yearly outage of an hour or less. The need for _residential_ backup power is hard to justify without special use cases. Cheap electrical rates and screwey policies on retail customers reselling to the grid unfortunately makes solar an economically marginal proposition.


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## jtr1962 (Feb 21, 2021)

idleprocess said:


> My math in the post you've quoted is incorrect and I've since corrected it.
> 
> Customers on traditional fixed-rate electric plans (average around $0.10/kWh) won't see a significant change to their bills. Customers on variable-rate plans pegged to the _spot market_ wholesale price of electricity have seen rates as high as *>$9.00/kWh* and are a tad incensed given that the price was artificially held at that level by PUC/ERCOT edict for many days.


The open question though is were these people warned in advance that the cost was going to skyrocket? They should have been, since the point of increasing the cost of electricity in a tight market is to get people to ration it. Without advance warning kind of hard for that to work. I also wonder if smart meters exist which display the current rate you're paying for power, and have the option to disconnect the power if the price gets above some set number. That would be the smart way to make this work.

$9 per kW-hr? And I thought we were being gouged for electricity in NYC (average $0.25 to $0.30 per kW-hr, including grid charges). Our average 600 kW-hr usage would cost $5,400 at those rates. Ouch!




> Cheap electrical rates and screwey policies on retail customers reselling to the grid unfortunately makes solar an economically marginal proposition.


I think right now the average cost of electricity for a solar system over its lifetime is $0.05 to $0.10 per kW-hr, highly dependent upon the hours of insolation where you live. Texas has that in its favor. Also, anything generated by the panels saves on delivery (grid) charges, which on my bill are actually more than the cost of the electricity.

If power outages are few and far between, then you can skip the battery backup for a solar system (unless you want to be completely off grid).


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## Chauncey Gardiner (Feb 21, 2021)

jtr1962 said:


> snip ..
> 
> $9 per kW-hr? And I thought we were being gouged for electricity in NYC (average $0.25 to $0.30 per kW-hr, including grid charges). Our average 600 kW-hr usage would cost $5,400 at those rates. Ouch!
> 
> snip ...



Speaking of counting one's blessings ... We're serviced by Parkland Light & Water Co. It was established in 1914 and is one of the oldest co-ops in the country. The current residential rate is 0.0658 kWh accompanied by a monthly service charge of $19.60. 

All the power lines in Parkland are underground. As a result our 20 year old Honda generator has been put into service a total of two times.


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## turbodog (Feb 21, 2021)

Chauncey Gardiner said:


> Speaking of counting one's blessings ... We're serviced by Parkland Light & Water Co. It was established in 1914 and is one of the oldest co-ops in the country. The current residential rate is 0.0658 kWh accompanied by a monthly service charge of $19.60.
> 
> All the power lines in Parkland are underground. As a result our 20 year old Honda generator has been put into service a total of two times.



In your area, underground would probably be necessary. However, not to derail the thread too much, those lines/insulation/jackets/etc degrade over time. VERY OFTEN, the utilities are not charging enough for the MASS REPLACEMENT that must ultimately be done. Might want to ask about this at the next board meeting. One of my clients deal with this issue almost exclusively... and it's a significant problem nationwide. The co-op could add a penny a KWH to begin funding this and you'd barely feel it.


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## jtr1962 (Feb 21, 2021)

Chauncey Gardiner said:


> Speaking of counting one's blessings ... We're serviced by Parkland Light & Water Co. It was established in 1914 and is one of the oldest co-ops in the country. The current residential rate is 0.0658 kWh accompanied by a monthly service charge of $19.60.
> 
> All the power lines in Parkland are underground. As a result our 20 year old Honda generator has been put into service a total of two times.


Even in NYC we still have a lot of overhead power lines in the outer boroughs. We really need to start moving them underground, at least the more vulnerable ones. BTW, is there an additional per kWh line charge, or does the $19.60 cover all grid charges? Sounds like you're getting a relative bargain on power either way. Just for comparison our last bill was $114.18 for line charges and $66.47 for supply charges. We used 610 kW-hrs. Those totals include all additional taxes. Needless to say I'm looking into a solar system within the next few years. If I do a lot of the work myself, payback could be in as little as three or four years.


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## Chauncey Gardiner (Feb 21, 2021)

jtr1962 said:


> Even in NYC we still have a lot of overhead power lines in the outer boroughs. We really need to start moving them underground, at least the more vulnerable ones. BTW, *is there an additional per kWh line charge*, or does the $19.60 cover all grid charges? Sounds like you're getting a relative bargain on power either way. Just for comparison our last bill was $114.18 for line charges and $66.47 for supply charges. We used 610 kW-hrs. Those totals include all additional taxes. Needless to say I'm looking into a solar system within the next few years. If I do a lot of the work myself, payback could be in as little as three or four years.


 
Nope, that covered it all. Last month's invoice - Usage/899 - Cost/$78.75 :thumbsup:


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## turbodog (Feb 21, 2021)

jtr1962 said:


> Even in NYC we still have a lot of overhead power lines in the outer boroughs. We really need to start moving them underground, at least the more vulnerable ones. BTW, is there an additional per kWh line charge, or does the $19.60 cover all grid charges? Sounds like you're getting a relative bargain on power either way. Just for comparison our last bill was $114.18 for line charges and $66.47 for supply charges. We used 610 kW-hrs. Those totals include all additional taxes. Needless to say I'm looking into a solar system within the next few years. If I do a lot of the work myself, payback could be in as little as three or four years.



WTH!

We used 3MWH last month.


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## jtr1962 (Feb 21, 2021)

turbodog said:


> WTH!
> 
> We used 3MWH last month.


The most we ever used in a month was 2110 kW-hrs. The least was 390. I've made a considerable effort over the last few years to cut down. We probably use about half what we used to.


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## Chauncey Gardiner (Feb 21, 2021)

turbodog said:


> We used 3MWH last month.


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## turbodog (Feb 21, 2021)

That's wintertime numbers... with nat gas for HVAC and water heating.

Just pulled the bill from the file cabinet. Lowest bill for last 12 months was 1.8MWH.

On an unrelated note... is your electrical meter supposed to glow a dull red? :huh:


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## Poppy (Feb 22, 2021)

We're new to this house since July, and are still making friends with neighbors.

Yesterday I was out with the snowblower again, due to the unrelenting snow. I got to chatting with couple of neighbors. When Sandy hit, the whole block went without power for three days, and then it came back on. BUT my next door neighbor to the South, and the lady across the street, and her next door neighbor, all lost power for 11 days!

She had a whole house, natural gas generator installed. It starts and runs for a little bit each Monday. She mentioned that none of the neighbors offered to help, and that she slept in her car in her garage because it was the warmest room in the house. My next door neighbor didn't get even a portable generator. That kinda surprised me.

Different strokes for different folks, I guess.


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## bykfixer (Feb 22, 2021)

turbodog said:


> WTH!
> 
> We used 3MWH last month.


Man, are you growing weed for the entire UC Berkley campus? 

I used to come home from work and every light was on in the house, electric stuff running with nobody in the room, charger ports plugged up, 6 strip outlets glowing with again more cords powering transformers, clothes dryer used on max heat to dry a couple of items etc. I'd go around turning stuff off but next day same thing. 
One month I handed the bill to Mrs Fixer and said "you pay it". Next thing you know every 6 strip outlet no longer glowed, clothes were hanging around the house to dry, lights were only on in occupied rooms etc. She stayed on top of the kids and next thing you know the power bill was cut by 1/3.


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## orbital (Feb 22, 2021)

+

*Within 3 minutes;*
I can shut off the water main in my house, disconnect the 2 power cords to my water system, flush my toilets & open some faucets.
Then going the extra mile, pour 1/2 gallon of rv antifreeze down a couple toilets...*Within 3 minutes*

Just in genuine disbelief Texas $18,000,000,000 fumble.


_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Living in a cold climate 4 months of the year, truly cold,, you are forced to anticipate problems. 
If you don't anticipate problems,, you're ph


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## orbital (Feb 22, 2021)

+

Also, yesterday morning at 7:50am, I was out breaking away ice dams on my roof while the ice was most brittle.
A bit dangerous & I'd rather not have gone up to deal w/ it.

That's not academic


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## markr6 (Feb 22, 2021)

orbital said:


> Then going the extra mile, pour 1/2 gallon of rv antifreeze down a couple toilets...*Within 3 minutes*



Curious about this. Toilets pipes wouldn't freeze would they? I assume they are usually away from exterior walls. Or is the antifreeze to keep the pipe from freezing closer towards the sewer hookup?


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## orbital (Feb 22, 2021)

markr6 said:


> Curious about this. Toilets pipes wouldn't freeze would they? I assume they are usually away from exterior walls. Or is the antifreeze to keep the pipe from freezing closer towards the sewer hookup?



+

Everything can/will freeze, including interior pipes. There is not alot of upside assuming they wouldn't.

rv antifreeze; again, it's a type of insurance.


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## idleprocess (Feb 22, 2021)

orbital said:


> Just in genuine disbelief Texas $18,000,000,000 fumble.
> 
> Living in a cold climate 4 months of the year, truly cold,, you are forced to anticipate problems.
> If you don't anticipate problems,, you're ph



Don't know how to impress upon the northerners that frequent these threads that the events of last week may well be _no big thing_ in your region but are almost _once-in-a-lifetime events_ in the south. As such neither the infrastructure nor the populace is prepared for them. Heck - DFW had fully _defrosted_ by Saturday afternoon while my folks in southwest Arkansas are still snowed in.

It's one thing for individual residents not anticipating the impact of an extreme weather event most haven't seen before. But it's altogether an entirely different thing for the refusal of 'professionals' running power grid to take preventative measures to ensure reliability of a resource that's been essential to the economy for about a century - especially after experiencing smaller versions of this same event every ~5 years.


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## markr6 (Feb 22, 2021)

orbital said:


> +
> 
> Everything can/will freeze, including interior pipes. There is not alot of upside assuming they wouldn't.
> 
> rv antifreeze; again, it's a type of insurance.




Do you flush it, or does it sort of flow down enough by itself?


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## orbital (Feb 22, 2021)

idleprocess said:


> ... But it's altogether an entirely different thing for the refusal of 'professionals' running power grid to take preventative measures to ensure reliability of a resource that's been essential to the economy for about a century - especially after experiencing smaller versions of this same event every ~5 years.



+

I'd really like to know what larger buildings were told to shut & set their thermostats lower, 
_meaning only absolute essential services were open using energy, allowing electric to homes/people._

*none?*



markr6 said:


> Do you flush it, or does it sort of flow down enough by itself?



+

Add after you turn your water system off & flush toilets, so the antifreeze in in the pipes. Dry pipes other than antifreeze.

This is a total emergency situation, but prudent to have a plan for.


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## idleprocess (Feb 22, 2021)

orbital said:


> I'd really like to know what larger buildings were told to shut & set their thermostats lower,
> _meaning only absolute essential services were open using energy, allowing electric to homes/people._
> 
> *none?*


I'd be _amazed_ if there was any attempt at demand management before the grid started collapsing. There was considerable bellyaching about closed public buildings with the lights on from residents in adjacent blocks suffering a blackout. Former Secretary of Energy and Texas Governor Rick Perry encapsulated the YOLO mindset in TX when he stated that _Texans would be without electricity for longer than three days to keep the federal government out of their business_.


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## Poppy (Feb 22, 2021)

Regarding winterizing water pipes.
Toilets, and sink waste water sewage traps, also outdoor sprinkler systems, and the use of RV antifreeze (not automobile antifreeze)

RV antifreeze is non-toxic and bio-degradable. It is safe to put into your drains. It is safe to put into your lawn sprinkler system.

Water runs downhill, so to drain the pipes in your house, you have to open the lowest point, perhaps the bottom of your hot water heater, and perhaps your boiler. You'll also need to open the faucets to allow air to enter the system. Honestly, I don't know how you would purge your baseboard heating system of it's water, perhaps open it at some point and force air through it.

Up North, each year we would have a sprinkler service come and blow out the lawn sprinklers with compressed air so that they do not freeze and have under ground pipes burst. Depending upon where you are in the country, building codes will define what the freeze level is and foundations have to be dug deeper than that. Here in NJ, it used to be 36 inches, I think it is now 42 inches. If water lines are not below that, it is possible that they may freeze. My sprinkler system was only 12-20 inches below ground, and despite hiring a pro, who would come with a big commercial compressor, to blow out the lines, invariably, I'd have at least one split line that would have to get dug up and repaired. Finally, I blew them out myself with a 6 gallon compressor, and then I pumped in a couple of gallons of RV antifreeze. I didn't have a problem again... well maybe once. That however was a big improvement.

Regarding toilets and sink drains, you want to flush the toilet to empty the tank, then pour a gallon into the tank and flush it again to fill the bowl with RV antifreeze.

Kitchen and bath sinks, and bath tub and showers all have traps that you need to pour antifreeze into them too.

I think that about covers it.


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## turbodog (Feb 22, 2021)

We have gotten a little snow/ice from time to time, but the last time temps were this low was back in 1988 approx.

The cattle pond froze to 4-6" deep. Cows were standing on it, unable to drink.


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## Chauncey Gardiner (Feb 22, 2021)

When the power is out and it's so cold you open the refrigerator door to warm up. 







I've read the term * perfect storm* used to describe the events that led to Snowmageddon '21..... If ever there was a misnomer.


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## Lynx_Arc (Feb 22, 2021)

markr6 said:


> Curious about this. Toilets pipes wouldn't freeze would they? I assume they are usually away from exterior walls. Or is the antifreeze to keep the pipe from freezing closer towards the sewer hookup?


Toilets have traps built into them and the only water in them is in the trap which is indoors above the floor or next to the wall if it is a wall mount version so unless you think your house is going to be freezing inside you shouldn't need to do anything about the toilet drain. Now the water inlet is another thing altogether but in a bathroom usually the toilet and sink and bathtub cold water pipes are all connected to a main line. All drains are designed to flow out to the sewer so unless the ground gets extremely cold which is very very unlikely as codes require them to be deep enough to not freeze and only have enough standing water in them to cause a problem if they get clogged up.


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## knucklegary (Feb 22, 2021)

CG, How's your Dogwood doing, any buds opening yet?


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## jtr1962 (Feb 22, 2021)

Question here regarding houses with basements, like mine. Most of the plumbing is downstairs, although obviously water and drain lines need to go upstairs. I've noticed even unheated the basement never gets below about 50°F, even on the coldest days. Also, the coldest it ever gets here might be lows around 0°F, maybe a little under, and perhaps highs of 10 to 15. The upstairs part of the house naturally holds at least 15° to 20°F above the outdoor temperature. The brick absorbs sunlight during the day, and that helps moderate temperatures at night. So worst case, it seems like if we had a bad cold snap lasting a week, it might get down to 20-25 upstairs. I'm dubious if it would get below freezing in the basement. However, I could have a few pots of water boiling on the gas stove upstairs. That would likely be enough to at least keep the upstairs above freezing. During the 4 days without power after Sandy, doing this kept the upstairs above 60°F, when it was 30s and low 40s outside. So basically my question here is should I really be all that worried about the pipes ever freezing? Sure, having some RV antifreeze to pour in traps just in case is a reasonable precaution, but given the weather here and the design of the house, it seems to me pipes freezing indoors is extremely unlikely. I honestly don't even recall a week long cold snap with average temperatures low enough to get the house below freezing, although historically it could happen.

Of course, outdoor pipes are another matter. I have a drain fitting on the pipe going outside to the hose. I drain all the water out before first frost.


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## Chauncey Gardiner (Feb 22, 2021)

knucklegary said:


> CG, How's your Dogwood doing, any buds opening yet?



There are a few telltale signs of Spring scattered about the yard, but no opening buds on the Dogwood.


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## jabe1 (Feb 22, 2021)

For me, the drain the pipes and use antifreeze scenario is only for when the situation requires that I leave my home during an extended cold weather power outage. I can probably keep my home above freezing quite easily as long as the gas is still on; if gas distribution fails then all bets are off and I’m headed to my brother-in-law’s farm.


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## bykfixer (Feb 22, 2021)

Our dogwoods discovered why it's a bad idea to bud out when Phil saw his shadow.


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## scout24 (Feb 22, 2021)

Awwww man! Hopefully the buds are still nice and tight and they thaw quickly. We have the same problem up here with late frost and apple blossoms.

Great pic, by the way.


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## knucklegary (Feb 22, 2021)

Byk, A little freezer burn won't damage if not for very long. Sometimes the water acts like insulation 

Perks to living in Lalaland, 70° forecast this afternoon and for rest of week


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## Chauncey Gardiner (Feb 22, 2021)

It's Friday ....







but Sunday is coming!


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## markr6 (Feb 23, 2021)

Speaking of that, I noticed the rabbits are eating a pine tree I planted last year. There's so much snow I guess there's little for them to eat. It was a big purchase and I can't afford to replace it.

It'll look trashy, but I'll pick up some chicken wire today. The spray stuff doesn't work. I lost EVERYTHING I planted last spring. They're like small dogs, massive. I swear they stand up reaching 2'. Looks like a dump truck unloaded coffee beans all around my house.

Nice slow melt-down this week with sun and 35-40° every day. 45 by the weekend.


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## turbodog (Feb 23, 2021)

markr6 said:


> Speaking of that, I noticed the rabbits are eating a pine tree I planted last year. There's so much snow I guess there's little for them to eat. It was a big purchase and I can't afford to replace it.
> 
> It'll look trashy, but I'll pick up some chicken wire today. The spray stuff doesn't work. I lost EVERYTHING I planted last spring. They're like small dogs, massive. I swear they stand up reaching 2'. Looks like a dump truck unloaded coffee beans all around my house.
> 
> Nice slow melt-down this week with sun and 35-40° every day. 45 by the weekend.



From someone living in the deep south... hearing that someone planted a pine tree is a little weird. I just removed 33 of them, 100-120' tall, from my yard last fall. Drop by... I'll give you all you can carry.


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## bykfixer (Feb 23, 2021)

Sounds like it's wabbitt season.


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## nbp (Feb 23, 2021)

turbodog said:


> WTH!
> 
> We used 3MWH last month.




I had to look up my usage for comparison as that seemed like a lot. I averaged about 151 kwh a month over the past year. Haha


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## Chauncey Gardiner (Feb 23, 2021)

If I was a betting-man, I'd bet money turbodog is either Al Gore or J.R. Ewing. :laughing:


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## turbodog (Feb 23, 2021)

nbp said:


> I had to look up my usage for comparison as that seemed like a lot. I averaged about 151 kwh a month over the past year. Haha



No wonder you need a good flashlight... with a bill that low you must never turn the lights on.


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## turbodog (Feb 23, 2021)

Chauncey Gardiner said:


> If I was a betting-man, I'd bet money turbodog is either Al Gore or J.R. Ewing. :laughing:



Go big or go home.


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## orbital (Feb 23, 2021)

+



_cord pulled_


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## nbp (Feb 23, 2021)

turbodog said:


> No wonder you need a good flashlight... with a bill that low you must never turn the lights on.



I dunno. My place isn’t huge, the furnace and water heater are gas, virtually all my light bulbs are LED... I guess if I ran A/C a lot in the summer that could maybe double it for two or three months a year, but I just don’t know how else I could consume much more power. I suppose if you have a lot of square footage to cool in a hot climate that would be a big power suck.


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## turbodog (Feb 23, 2021)

nbp said:


> I dunno. My place isn’t huge, the furnace and water heater are gas, virtually all my light bulbs are LED... I guess if I ran A/C a lot in the summer that could maybe double it for two or three months a year, but I just don’t know how else I could consume much more power. I suppose if you have a lot of square footage to cool in a hot climate that would be a big power suck.



We've got 4 people, a dedicated home office, and mentor robotics teams in the building out back a couple of days a week. But baseload is still significant. We are using nat gas for heat and water heat also.

Worth noting that our roof was the last to melt off after the storms last week. So others around here either 1) use more power or 2) have crappier insulation???


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## nbp (Feb 23, 2021)

Yes, assuming that the sun shines equally on all the roofs and they have similar roofing materials, the difference will be the temperature of the bottom of the roof (the temp of the attic). If people do not insulate well, heat from living quarters will leak up through the ceiling and the attic will be warmer than the outside air and cause the snow to melt. The other possibility is that there is a heat source in the attic that warms the air enough to melt the snow. For example, poorly insulated ductwork running through the attic can dump off heat, or even can lights in the ceiling that aren’t insulated well can throw heat upwards into the attic. In a warm place this isn’t that big of a deal. Here in a snowy climate if your attic is too warm and the snow is frequently melting even when air temps are below freezing it can be a problem. The water runs down the roof and then when it gets to the overhanging eaves and gutters it freezes since those areas are colder. This can cause ice dams that back up and even work themselves under shingles or do other damage. Ideally you want the bottom side of the roof to be the same temperature as the outside air. Soffit and ridge vents can help create air flow that mitigates warm air against the roof as well.


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## Poppy (Feb 24, 2021)

Regarding ice daming:
When we did my roof, we laid rolled, self adhering, relatively thick "weather shield" or "weather watch" around the perimeter. It comes in 36 inch wide rolls. I don't recall for sure, but I think we may have put two runs of it so that we had almost 6 feet of shielding from ice dams. Above that, to the peak, we used tar paper, and of course everything was covered with shingles. We added a ridge vent too.

https://www.homedepot.com/p/GAF-Wea...5fFW3sbD4Ja0uRicwRsaAjAUEALw_wcB&gclsrc=aw.ds


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## markr6 (Feb 24, 2021)

nbp said:


> I had to look up my usage for comparison as that seemed like a lot. I averaged about 151 kwh a month over the past year. Haha




Dang that's good! I watch mine on an app that the utility company is connected with. It's not real-time but pretty close, about 6 hours delayed. Gives a nice summary each day of the usage per hour and outside temperature.

On days when I'm out of town, no AC or heat running, and obviously nothing else except the fridge and maybe a 6w LED outside light, I'm using around 3.5kWh. So that's about 105kWh/mo. Of course I'm never out of town the entire month, so 180-200kWh is the best I can do on a good month. And I'm frugal with the thermostat.


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## turbodog (Feb 24, 2021)

So to put some numbers to this, and sorry for the tangent...

My 3mwh is, using 30 days in a month, about 4200w all the time, 24 hours a day all month long.

That does seem high...

We are all led/CF lights. My office varies in usage but it's not outrageous: 5 machines & backend networking equipment. The outbuilding is only using power when we are out there.


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## markr6 (Feb 24, 2021)

turbodog said:


> So to put some numbers to this, and sorry for the tangent...
> 
> My 3mwh is, using 30 days in a month, about 4200w all the time, 24 hours a day all month long.
> 
> ...




There could be something pulling a lot of juice without you knowing. I remember when looking at houses and asked for past utility costs. The realtor had a note from the owners saying something like "high utilities last month due to electric heat but heat pump was accidentally turned off". I'm not real familiar with what that is, but an example of how things can sky rocket. Their previous month bills were about 1/5 of that one.


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## nbp (Feb 24, 2021)

It does make me wonder about those bills for $5000 of power for five days in Texas though. Even at the astronomical price of $9/kwh, those folks were using over 100kwh a day of power? Is that typical and I am a massive outlier or what was happening there? Is electric heat that inefficient? The prices were absurd, but it still seems like a lot of power. Even at $9/kwh I would use $45 of power in five days. It would be annoying but not panic inducing by any means.


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## markr6 (Feb 24, 2021)

nbp said:


> It does make me wonder about those bills for $5000 of power for five days in Texas though. Even at the astronomical price of $9/kwh, those folks were using over 100kwh a day of power? Is that typical and I am a massive outlier or what was happening there? Is electric heat that inefficient? The prices were absurd, but it still seems like a lot of power. Even at $9/kwh I would use $45 of power in five days. It would be annoying but not panic inducing by any means.




I don't know all the details but skimmed a news article yesterday. I think there were all kinds of surcharges and fees added in on top of high prices. I know you can't just give stuff away for free, but this was a unique situation that should have been handled differently. Hopefully a live-and-learn deal so it doesn't happen again.


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## turbodog (Feb 24, 2021)

markr6 said:


> There could be something pulling a lot of juice without you knowing. I remember when looking at houses and asked for past utility costs. The realtor had a note from the owners saying something like "high utilities last month due to electric heat but heat pump was accidentally turned off". I'm not real familiar with what that is, but an example of how things can sky rocket. Their previous month bills were about 1/5 of that one.



If that much power was used INSIDE the house... I would not need to run the heat! Will pull the panel cover and throw an ammeter on the individual circuits.


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## idleprocess (Feb 24, 2021)

nbp said:


> It does make me wonder about those bills for $5000 of power for five days in Texas though. Even at the astronomical price of $9/kwh, those folks were using over 100kwh a day of power? Is that typical and I am a massive outlier or what was happening there? Is electric heat that inefficient? The prices were absurd, but it still seems like a lot of power. Even at $9/kwh I would use $45 of power in five days. It would be annoying but not panic inducing by any means.



I know that electric resistance heating is decidedly energy-intensive. Know more than a few people that barely kept individual rooms above 50F with the mere _pair_ of small space heaters that compact ~2kw generators could run.


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## turbodog (Feb 26, 2021)

Chauncey Gardiner said:


> Thank you for putting my mind at ease.



"Leak" turned out to be a carb bowl drain screw that was backed out 1/8th turn.


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## Poppy (Feb 26, 2021)

turbodog said:


> "Leak" turned out to be a carb bowl drain screw that was backed out 1/8th turn.


Is this for the generator that a family member caught leaking gas into a coffee can, and had to fetch water in a bucket?

I am sometimes amazed at how many people are not at all mechanically inclined.

I once picked up a 5HP pressure washer off of the curb. I gave the engine a pull, and it had compression, so I figured I'd give it a shot. I discovered it had a leaking carb bowl. Someone pulled the bowl, and stripped the carb bowl drain screw, trying to put it back in. I got out my tap and die set and 1-2-3, it was all fixed.


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## turbodog (Feb 26, 2021)

Yes on the coffee can. No on the bucket.

It was hard to tell the screw was loose. Due to vibration the gas leaked out but then clung to the bowl and dripped off ABOVE the place it came from, and on the other side of the bowl. Looked like a leaking bowl gasket. So between that and the engine vibrating some... was pretty hard to pin down the leak. They had already removed the bowl and checked the gasket.


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## Poppy (Feb 26, 2021)

turbodog said:


> Yes on the coffee can. No on the bucket.
> 
> It was hard to tell the screw was loose. Due to vibration the gas leaked out but then clung to the bowl and dripped off ABOVE the place it came from, and on the other side of the bowl. Looked like a leaking bowl gasket.


Geee.... who'd a thunk?

Good thing turbodog was on the job! 

Regarding snowmageddon:
Ever notice how the stores jump from one holiday to another, sometimes before the first holiday even hit yet?
Or winter has just begun, and they are already putting out Spring clothing?

It seems that the weathermen are now getting into the act.
Our weather temps are 45F - 52F for the highs, and lows are about freezing.
Not too much snow is in the forecast, so now they are starting to talk about hurricane season... (June to November!)


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## markr6 (Feb 26, 2021)

Only 298 days until winter!!


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## bykfixer (Feb 26, 2021)




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## Poppy (Feb 26, 2021)

bykfixer said:


>



Nice that your weathermen, have a sense of humor! :thumbsup:


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## turbodog (Feb 26, 2021)

Had to run the a/c today, just slightly. Tomorrow it will run all day.


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## Poppy (Feb 28, 2021)

I'm curious, regarding water lines inside homes in Texas.

Do most of the homes with damaged water lines have plastic pipes, or copper?


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## turbodog (Feb 28, 2021)

Even with plastic/pex lines, the final few feet going to the hose bib will be a copper section around here. Then there's always some random sections of pipe in the attic. Our HWH is up there.


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## Chauncey Gardiner (Feb 28, 2021)

turbodog said:


> Even with plastic/pex lines, the final few feet going to the hose bib will be a copper section around here. Then there's always some random sections of pipe in the attic. Our HWH is up there.



HWH? Hot Water Heater? Do you heat your hot water? Perhaps that's the reason for your enormous electric bill.


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## turbodog (Feb 28, 2021)

Haha.

We use gas for that. And yes, I do heat my hot water. I've got (2) 40 gallon nat gas heaters in series with bypass valves so I can run from either if the other fails.

And I'm looking into the elec usage. When we built the house usage was about 1/2 of what we are seeing now.


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## Chauncey Gardiner (Feb 28, 2021)

turbodog said:


> Haha.
> 
> We use gas for that. And yes, I do heat my hot water. I've got (2) 40 gallon nat gas heaters in series with bypass valves so I can run from either if the other fails.
> 
> And I'm looking into the elec usage. When we built the house usage was about 1/2 of what we are seeing now.



I'm beginning to think I was wrong about you being either Al Gore or J.R. Ewing. Now I'm pretty sure you're Batman! :thumbsup: 

A few years back I was attending a birthday party for one of my son's classmates. His father was showing me the addition he'd built. The laundry room had two water heaters. Outside I saw a cold and a hot water faucet on the side of his house. I said - "WOW! You've got cold and hot water faucets outside." He smiled and said - "This is America. You can have anything you want." 

It makes me smile every time I remember his words.


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## Lynx_Arc (Feb 28, 2021)

Poppy said:


> I'm curious, regarding water lines inside homes in Texas.
> 
> Do most of the homes with damaged water lines have plastic pipes, or copper?



There is also galvanized steel pipe in houses too that can break as when water expands even pex pipes has to expand with it. I haven't researched how well pex does with freezing but my thinking is that it is flexible and could survive better than metal pipes. I think they also have CPVC pipe too. I just read a blurb on a site that says both plastic pipe types do well with freezing.


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## turbodog (Feb 28, 2021)

Chauncey Gardiner said:


> I'm beginning to think I was wrong about you being either Al Gore or J.R. Ewing. Now I'm pretty sure you're Batman! :thumbsup:
> 
> A few years back I was attending a birthday party for one of my son's classmates. His father was showing me the addition he'd built. The laundry room had two water heaters. Outside I saw a cold and a hot water faucet on the side of his house. I said - "WOW! You've got cold and hot water faucets outside." He smiled and said - "This is America. You can have anything you want."
> 
> It makes me smile every time I remember his words.



We've got a laundry sink w/ hot water in the garage. I sometimes hookup a water hose to the hot side to wash cars in the cooler temps or to combine with an air nozzle for cleaning small items. It's a nice convenience.

I've build 4 houses in my life. After a while you get to know exactly what you want in one. I should have added (on my list for the next build) frost proof faucets.


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## turbodog (Feb 28, 2021)

Lynx_Arc said:


> There is also galvanized steel pipe in houses too that can break as when water expands even pex pipes has to expand with it. I haven't researched how well pex does with freezing but my thinking is that it is flexible and could survive better than metal pipes. I think they also have CPVC pipe too. I just read a blurb on a site that says both plastic pipe types do well with freezing.



My experience with pex is that it does not crack.


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## Lynx_Arc (Feb 28, 2021)

turbodog said:


> My experience with pex is that it does not crack.


I wouldn't think so as I've abused it and you literally have to cut it to make it crack
I've used both the metal ring and expansion bands varieties so far and pex will stretch about 50% in diameter and still come back.
The problem is that there are a huge amount of houses that were built prior to the use of pex and CPVC pipe that have metal piping of some sort and some of that pipe is so old that it has corroded some making for damaged walls that are more susceptible to cracking when the water freezes in the pipe.


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## idleprocess (Feb 28, 2021)

Poppy said:


> I'm curious, regarding water lines inside homes in Texas.
> 
> Do most of the homes with damaged water lines have plastic pipes, or copper?



Having formally and informally toured a number of residential construction sites in the northeast DFW burbs, I can state with some confidence that copper was the choice of builders in the region from at least the 90s onward.


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## Poppy (Apr 6, 2021)

*Re: Snowmageddon '21- Aftermath - lessons learned*

In the aftermath of snowmageddon 2021, what were your lessons learned, and have you done anything in preparation, should another similar event occur?

My area wasn't devastated, but we did get about 22 inches of snow.

Personally I was pretty well prepared, and things have not changed for me regarding preparation for snow, or a power outage. But it was a good event for me, because I built friendships with my neighbors.

I have a 10 HP snow blower, and helped 4 of my neighbors, who in turn have helped me one way or another, since, or during then.

I am looking forward to spending time with them when the weather breaks, sitting around a fire pit, with some wine, and listening to good music.


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## Poppy (May 8, 2021)

turbodog said:


> My experience with *pex is that it does not crack*.





Lynx_Arc said:


> I wouldn't think so as I've abused it and you literally have to cut it to make it crack
> I've used both the metal ring and expansion bands varieties so far and *pex will stretch about 50% in diameter and still come back.*
> The problem is that there are a huge amount of houses that were built prior to the use of pex and CPVC pipe that have metal piping of some sort and some of that pipe is so old that it has corroded some making for damaged walls that are more susceptible to cracking when the water freezes in the pipe.


I hope you guys are right about pex. A couple of weeks ago, my daughter turned on the water for the outside faucets. It didn't take long to discover a waterfall from the attic into the kids' bedroom.

Shoddy workmanship repair of a previous episode of freezing and split pipe, failed. I had turned the water off, and opened the outside faucet, but apparently not all of the water drained out.






My plumber came by and fixed it properly.






He also inserted a air connector so I can blow out the lines.
Hopefully no more frozen pipes for me!


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## Lynx_Arc (May 8, 2021)

Poppy said:


> I hope you guys are right about pex. A couple of weeks ago, my daughter turned on the water for the outside faucets. It didn't take long to discover a waterfall from the attic into the kids' bedroom.
> 
> Shoddy workmanship repair of a previous episode of freezing and split pipe, failed. I had turned the water off, and opened the outside faucet, but apparently not all of the water drained out.
> 
> ...


It sounds sort of like he didn't have good fall to the pipe so it would drain out, or at least have it level if a pipe has back fall it won't drain out and that water at the lower points would be the most devastating to freeze. Personally I would have just opted to replace the whole pipe with pex myself and make sure it had good fall to it you then wouldn't need to blow out the pipe. I've seen them install automatic pipe heating wires that keep pipes from freezing too.


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## Poppy (May 9, 2021)

I understand. I can't testify to how level the run of pipe is, but it is about a 40 foot run in the attic, and then 6 feet down the exterior wall (which was not insulated ! ) to the faucet. I haven't seen his repair, other than the pictures. I have used heating wire in my second house that had a 10 foot run of pipe in an unheated space. That and letting a faucet drip when temps dropped below 16F worked very well.

For the first three years I was in my 3rd house, my sprinkler system was blown out by a sprinkler system company. Each year they would have to return in the Spring to repair a burst pipe. One year, when I didn't call them soon enough, and the temps took a sudden plunge, I did it myself. Additionally, I decided to flush the system with a couple of gallons of RV antifreeze. That was the first year I didn't have a break. In the following 12 years or so, I only had two breaks to deal with.


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## Lynx_Arc (May 9, 2021)

A 40 foot run if it had 1/8 inch fall/foot be a 5 inch drop from start to finish. If I were running it I would try for a 1/4 inch fall that would be about 10 inches drop over the length of the pipe. Normally water lines in houses don't need any drop they often are level as they don't consider them needing to be emptied of water as a prevention from freezing. If the pipe froze in the same place it is possible that is where the pipe either had backfall or a sag in it.


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## turbodog (May 9, 2021)

Sounds like the air is the way to go considering possible sags and the difficulty of getting a long section of pipe to FULLY empty.


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## Lynx_Arc (May 9, 2021)

turbodog said:


> Sounds like the air is the way to go considering possible sags and the difficulty of getting a long section of pipe to FULLY empty.


likely there would be only so much that air could help if the pipe were large enough and the air pressure either not enough or the air flow required could be unsafe if stopped up. If the pipe had too much backfall you could empty the top of the pipe enough to let the air get out and when pressure was released the water would flow back to fill the low areas and still be able to freeze up.
No good plumber would allow their pipes to have any more than negligible backfall the pipe should be level at the worst. If there is backfall then a valve needs to be put in the low area so let the water drain out there.


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## turbodog (May 9, 2021)

Dunno. Air at 90 psi should flush out most anything. Pipe burst pressure should be well above that.


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## Lynx_Arc (May 9, 2021)

turbodog said:


> Dunno. Air at 90 psi should flush out most anything. Pipe burst pressure should be well above that.


We test new copper pipes at about 100psi but older pipes you could try about 40psi. Probably need a compressor with a 10 gallon or larger tank to maintain pressure for awhile if you are blowing water uphill.


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## Poppy (May 10, 2021)

Lynx_Arc said:


> likely there would be only so much that air could help if the pipe were large enough and the air pressure either not enough or the air flow required could be unsafe if stopped up. *If the pipe had too much backfall you could empty the top of the pipe enough to let the air get out and when pressure was released the water would flow back to fill the low areas and still be able to freeze up.*
> No good plumber would allow their pipes to have any more than negligible backfall the pipe should be level at the worst. If there is backfall then a valve needs to be put in the low area so let the water drain out there.


Yes Lynx_Arc, this had to be what was happening when I had professionals with a big ingersol rand gas powered compressor on a trailer blow out my lawn sprinkler lines. Yet I had frozen lines every year.

That's why I started putting some RV (non toxic) antifreeze in my sprinkler lines. I never did the math to see how much it would take, but considered that if I blew it through and for the most part out of the system, even if there was some backfall, that the partially antifreezed water would be softer than pure frozen water, and not be able to split the pipe. I used about 2 gallons for about 300 feet of pipe. lol... not enough  As I mentioned above that I had two breaks over a 12 year period. One of those may have been due to tree roots. 

Today I calculated that 40' of 1/2 pipe holds 1.6 gallons.


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## bykfixer (May 10, 2021)

If you are talking about a pipe that begins over head but ends at a bit above ground level the an inline spigot valve with a brass cap on the spigot would act as a vacuum breaker and water would flow out naturally. 

I'm still trying to wrap my head around water pipe in the attic.


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## Poppy (May 10, 2021)

Yes a bleeder valve could break the vacuum. I had one in my second house, that I used as a drain for the short length of pipe that was outside of the house leading to the back yard.

Regarding water line in the attic? The house is on a slab. I guess the water line to the South side of the house was an after thought added when they put an addition on the house? I don't know.


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## Lynx_Arc (May 10, 2021)

If it is the only water line in the attic it was likely an addition. Slab construction however does lend to water lines in the attic. I worked on a new construction job where it had a lot of water spigots on the outside for growing plants outdoors that the lines ran up into the roof area. It was however pex so the problem of it breaking because of freezing was likely minimal. 
Yes they do have vacuum breakers on outside lines to help water drain, but also they are to keep from sucking foul water into the lines in your house from outside especially if the water gets turned off or you have low pressure or a break in the lines the water draining out would likely have water pressure from an outside attached hose etc pushing back into your house contaminating things. I guess it could keep you from accidentally drinking antifreeze if you have stupidly reconnected your sprinkler system back up after filling it for winter.

Slab houses present all sorts of problems for plumbers when it comes to repair and remodels as to run new water lines you either have to tear up the concrete floors which is a lot of labor and messy or you have to tear up the walls to run it to water lines in them or you (the sometimes easiest way) run it in the attic. If you have water lines in a garage that is unheated you can have similar problems with water lines even though they aren't run in the attic. The advantage of running things in a slab is it minimizes exposure to the cold. 
I would think a sprinkler system run at a proper depth in the ground below the frost line would still have problems with the sprinkler heads as point of exposure . If I were to design a sprinkler system to drain it easily I would make for a low point (fall) in the pipes and connect a hose below it and have that run to a line so you can hook a pump up to it to suck most of the water out. 
I have pretty much no experience with lawn sprinkler systems however. I would also have a hookup for a high point in the system for both a vent to help drain the pipes and to pump in antifreeze. 

One option to prevent a pipe in the attic from freezing would be (and I've not heard of anyone doing this) is to install something like a water recirculating pump and hook it into the hot water system with a temperature regulator like many places put on sinks to give warm water and limit hot water temps to protect from burning people. This would however incur operating costs of having to power a pump and a higher water heating bill plus you would have to run more water line to connect a hot water line into it and a return line also.


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## markr6 (May 10, 2021)

Huge flakes, heavy burst of snow here yesterday in northern IN. I like winter but can we be done now?


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## turbodog (May 10, 2021)

Lynx_Arc said:


> If it is the only water line in the attic it was likely an addition. Slab construction however does lend to water lines in the attic. I worked on a new construction job where it had a lot of water spigots on the outside for growing plants outdoors that the lines ran up into the roof area. It was however pex so the problem of it breaking because of freezing was likely minimal.
> Yes they do have vacuum breakers on outside lines to help water drain, but also they are to keep from sucking foul water into the lines in your house from outside especially if the water gets turned off or you have low pressure or a break in the lines the water draining out would likely have water pressure from an outside attached hose etc pushing back into your house contaminating things. I guess it could keep you from accidentally drinking antifreeze if you have stupidly reconnected your sprinkler system back up after filling it for winter.
> 
> Slab houses present all sorts of problems for plumbers when it comes to repair and remodels as to run new water lines you either have to tear up the concrete floors which is a lot of labor and messy or you have to tear up the walls to run it to water lines in them or you (the sometimes easiest way) run it in the attic. If you have water lines in a garage that is unheated you can have similar problems with water lines even though they aren't run in the attic. The advantage of running things in a slab is it minimizes exposure to the cold.
> ...



We have a circulating hot water system. If the hot water line is fairly close to the cold you will get enough heat conduction to keep the cold from freezing. Only downside is that 'cold' really isn't super cold in the summertime until you get the line flushed of the lukewarm water. This isn't reasonable to install for anything except new construction. It also was not our intended outcome... we just didn't want to wait for hot water. And, if I did it again, I would separate the hot/cold lines to AVOID heating up the cold water.


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## Lynx_Arc (May 10, 2021)

turbodog said:


> We have a circulating hot water system. If the hot water line is fairly close to the cold you will get enough heat conduction to keep the cold from freezing. Only downside is that 'cold' really isn't super cold in the summertime until you get the line flushed of the lukewarm water. This isn't reasonable to install for anything except new construction. It also was not our intended outcome... we just didn't want to wait for hot water. And, if I did it again, I would separate the hot/cold lines to AVOID heating up the cold water.


Many new construction are now putting pipe insulation on water lines which would mean you don't need to separate the lines that much. As for trying to update your current system to recirculating it is a big expense for many installations especially if you have to start cutting into walls. I don't have much knowledge of instant hot water solutions but if I were to build my own house I would consider that. I recall in a store I worked once we installed small 5 gallon electric hot water heaters for the bathrooms that were far from the main hot water heater. It was to act as a buffer to give hot water quickly till the flow of water from the main heater reached there as it was about 80-100 feet away If I remember correctly. It was doable in a store as we could install it in the ceiling above the bathroom but in a house may be less easily managed unless you had a decent attic to install it. 
What I would like to see is a house built with a hot water return system that only turns on for a short while, that is when it detects a need for hot water it turns on the recirculating pump and turns it off when the target water temp is finally hot enough thus saving the need to run hot water in a sink or tub waiting for it to warm up wasting a few gallons every time for a bathroom on the other side of the house.
I have a 2 gallon bucket in my bathtub that I catch the water in when I'm about to take a shower dumping the cold water into it till it gets hot enough to not freeze me into a popsicle. Instant hot water heaters would work in this because if they were right in the bathroom area you would have hot water from them and it would be good for them to regulate the temp so they would shut down when the hot water from the tank reached that point.


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## markr6 (May 10, 2021)

Lynx_Arc said:


> I have a 2 gallon bucket in my bathtub that I catch the water in when I'm about to take a shower dumping the cold water into it till it gets hot enough to not freeze me into a popsicle.



What now? I'm not following you here.


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## raggie33 (May 10, 2021)

he is saying the water is. so cold at first so he saves the cold water for his nuclear reactors


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## Lynx_Arc (May 10, 2021)

markr6 said:


> What now? I'm not following you here.


My shower is about 50 feet away from the water tank. I can turn on the hot water tap and it doesn't even start to get warm till about a gallon and a quarter comes out as the pipe between the tank and the bathroom cools off after a few hours. Instead of just letting the water run out till it gets hot enough (I have a diverter on the tub faucet for the shower) I put a bucket under it and use the water that would be wasted for my plants and a bird bath or I can dump it in the toilet tank. I know that if I save 2 gallons a day it isn't even 1000 gallons a year that that costs about $15 I think but if everyone did that (probably half a million houses) it could save about 1/4 of a billion gallons of water over a year?


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## turbodog (May 10, 2021)

Probably, but water's cheap and time is more valuable than that.


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## jabe1 (May 10, 2021)

It is cheap now, for us. For many, water is a precious commodity, not to be wasted.
Why waste it if all it takes is a few extra minutes to conserve.


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## Lynx_Arc (May 10, 2021)

Many waste more time sucking the life out of dead alkaleaks when a KWH costs about 15 cents at least with $15 per 1000 gallons it is 3 cents saved for 2 gallons (1.5 cents/gallon) a lot more savings than battery vampires do and a lot quicker to save that much.


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## bykfixer (May 10, 2021)

In summer I catch the water and use it to water stuff like flowers and dogs water bowls. In winter for house plants but they don't need very much and dog bowls but not as much is needed.


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## Lynx_Arc (May 10, 2021)

bykfixer said:


> In summer I catch the water and use it to water stuff like flowers and dogs water bowls. In winter for house plants but they don't need very much and dog bowls but not as much is needed.


I had a few containers outside that filled with water that took awhile to use up as it kept raining. 
Anyway this thread is about snow and freezing there won't be any more here till around November.


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## idleprocess (May 10, 2021)

Lynx_Arc said:


> but if everyone did that (probably half a million houses) it could save about 1/4 of a billion gallons of water over a year?


From your perspective the water is wasted, sure. But water is a nice stable molecule and whatever goes down the drain is promptly reused by someone downstream; as the city upstream of Dallas (Denton) likes to joke 'Dallas has water to drink because Denton flushes its toilets'.



jabe1 said:


> It is cheap now, for us. For many, water is a precious commodity, not to be wasted.
> Why waste it if all it takes is a few extra minutes to conserve.


If you want to do something like capture water that would go down the drain waiting for the shower to warm, have at. But like my tendency to promptly use ice in left over fountain drink cups to chill some water out of the tap the savings are extraordinarily small as opposed to more meaningful changes - like _not flood-irrigating_ thousands of square miles of lawns or not refrigerating one's dwelling down to 68F in the summer.


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## turbodog (May 10, 2021)

jabe1 said:


> It is cheap now, for us. For many, water is a precious commodity, not to be wasted.
> Why waste it if all it takes is a few extra minutes to conserve.



Because time is limited and there are far more efficient ways to boost water availability & quality.


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## markr6 (May 11, 2021)

Lynx_Arc said:


> My shower is about 50 feet away from the water tank. I can turn on the hot water tap and it doesn't even start to get warm till about a gallon and a quarter comes out as the pipe between the tank and the bathroom cools off after a few hours. Instead of just letting the water run out till it gets hot enough (I have a diverter on the tub faucet for the shower) I put a bucket under it and use the water that would be wasted for my plants and a bird bath or I can dump it in the toilet tank. I know that if I save 2 gallons a day it isn't even 1000 gallons a year that that costs about $15 I think but if everyone did that (probably half a million houses) it could save about 1/4 of a billion gallons of water over a year?




Got it! Oh I might have you beat. My water heater is in the basement which never gets cold, about 66-68° year round. Both bathrooms upstairs easily require a gallon or even two. I'll measure it sometime because now I'm curious.


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