# Copper and Brass are antimicrobial, do you mind the smell?



## jon_slider (Apr 16, 2015)

My body chemistry produces a strong odor when I handle copper, so I tend to avoid it.


Although I dislike the smell, I recently learned Copper kills pathogens, as does Brass, though more slowly, due to the lower copper content. 

Maratac offers both Copper and Brass versions. I would be curious whether Brass makes hands smell less than Copper. If you get a chance to test the odor qualities of your Copper Maratac, I would be curious to know your impressions. If you also have handled the Brass version I would welcome your smell comparison.


I also checked whether Stainless and Titanium are anti bacterial, and learned that they are not.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antimicrobial_properties_of_copper
"Unlike copper alloys, stainless steel (S30400) does not exhibit any degree of bactericidal properties…._E. coli_ O157:H7 is almost completely killed on copper alloy C10200 after just 90 minutes at 20 °C; whereas a substantial number of pathogens remain on stainless steel S30400.[21]"
"Commonly touched items, such as bed rails, over-the-bed tray tables, chair arms, nurse's call buttons, IV poles, etc. were retrofitted with antimicrobial copper alloys in certain patient rooms (i.e., the “coppered” rooms) in the Intensive Care Unit (ICU). Early results disclosed in 2011 indicate that the coppered rooms demonstrated a 97% reduction in surface pathogens versus the non-coppered rooms"
I also looked up Aluminum, it is not antibacterial, and can be toxic, though I believe that anodizing blocks that effect:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aluminium#Health_concerns
"Because aluminium competes with calcium for absorption, increased amounts of dietary aluminium may contribute to the reduced skeletal mineralization (osteopenia) observed in preterm infants and infants with growth retardation. In very high doses, aluminium is associated with altered function of the blood–brain barrier.[78] A small percentage of people are allergic to aluminium and experience contact dermatitis, digestive disorders, vomiting or other symptoms upon contact or ingestion of products containing aluminium, such as antiperspirants and antacids. "


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## tom- (Apr 17, 2015)

jon, it isn't only you; everyone I work with -enjoys- the same aroma when cleaning/sweating/brazing copper tube and for more than a few years I thought that it was the flux that created the smell, as for brass I can make up joints all day with not the slightest aroma, and I never realized this until your post.....
By the way, copper is the only material I would ever use for my own potable water system precisely for this materials properties AND did you know that if you place a few pennies in a glad bag 1/2 full of water you have a very effective bug countermeasure? depending on who one listens to it works either by freaking out the bugs when they look at it or there is some sort of outgassing of copper, either way people claim it works.


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## StarHalo (Apr 17, 2015)

Wouldn't leaving your flashlight in the sun for a moment be more anti microbial than the material it's made of?


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## Berneck1 (Apr 17, 2015)

So, are you buying a copper flashlight because of its antibacterial properties?


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## night.hoodie (Apr 18, 2015)

This anti-microbial action is known as the oligodynamic effect. Silver's oligodynamic effect is even more pronounced than copper-- thus, silverware sure was a great idea, and curiously, in a silver flask, water can stay potable indefinitely. Aluminum also shares this anti-microbial property. Considering flashlights are tools and tools get dirty, dirt has microbes, microbes can make you sick, so all things being equal, I can't imagine why anyone would not want a flashlight with anti-microbial properties, but if they're out there, they can use Titanium or Steel.


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## jon_slider (Apr 18, 2015)

tom- said:


> jon, it isn't only you; everyone I work with -enjoys- the same aroma when cleaning/sweating/brazing copper tube and for more than a few years I thought that it was the flux that created the smell, as for brass I can make up joints all day with not the slightest aroma, and I never realized this until your post.....




Exactly the kind of info I was curious to learn, thank you!
Both Copper and Brass share the oligodynamic properties
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oligodynamic_effect
"Many infections can be spread by doorknobs. Brass doorknobs disinfect themselves in about eight hours, while stainless steel and aluminium knobs never do."





StarHalo said:


> Wouldn't leaving your flashlight in the sun for a moment be more anti microbial than the material it's made of?




I don't know, do you have a link to some info about that? Or have you ever noticed how your hands smell after putting them on a copper clad counter or table? I was quite shocked when I tried it.





Berneck1 said:


> So, are you buying a copper flashlight because of its antibacterial properties?




sounds like a good enough reason to me, don't you think 
I might need one of each, to do my own test.. copper and brass both.. LOL
I would actually like one in Sterling Silver too.


Do you own a copper flashlight, or mind the smell of copper?


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## Berneck1 (Apr 18, 2015)

night.hoodie said:


> This anti-microbial action is known as the oligodynamic effect. Silver's oligodynamic effect is even more pronounced than copper-- thus, silverware sure was a great idea, and curiously, in a silver flask, water can stay potable indefinitely. Aluminum also shares this anti-microbial property. Considering flashlights are tools and tools get dirty, dirt has microbes, microbes can make you sick, so all things being equal, I can't imagine why anyone would not want a flashlight with anti-microbial properties, but if they're out there, they can use Titanium or Steel.



Hmm I recall reading that silver actually isn't as effective as copper. Silver actually needs certain temperature requirements to meet the same efficiency as copper at any temperature. 

I have also read that if hospitals used copper in place of the typical stainless steel surfaces, they could reduce the transmissions of many of the microbes that cause a staggering amount of deaths by nearly 60%.




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## Berneck1 (Apr 18, 2015)

It's funny, I guess I could understand someone wanting antimicrobial properties if they were specifically in an environment that may warrant it, like a hospital. 

At the risk of starting an argument, I feel limiting your purchase to a specific material in a flashlight for these properties is a bit of overkill. There are many things we handle day in and day out that should concern us more, like handling money for example. Money is probably by far the nastiest thing we handle every day, and most of us never think twice about it.

It's very interesting how overly concerned we have all become with germs that we are actually putting ourselves more at risk. Studies are showing that the over use of antibacterial soap and lotions to the use of antibiotics for every little thing is actually reducing our body's ability to fight off many of these germs. It's also creating stronger "super-germs". Pretty ironic.

And if you really want to get political in a way, it's really just drug and household product companies who have created this fear in us, because fear is the best way to make a ton of money. 

This doesn't serve to offend anyone, or discount their thoughts. Just my opinion. 



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## jon_slider (Apr 18, 2015)

Berneck1 said:


> At the risk of starting an argument, I feel limiting your purchase to a specific material in a flashlight for these properties is a bit of overkill. …





Berneck1 said:


> the use of antibiotics … creating stronger "super-germs".


You're assuming the opposite of my intention. Im trying to talk myself into a Maratac Copper, even though it is heavier than my Titanium Thrunite, and even though the Maratac has PWM. The antibacterial effect is a reason to ADD to my collection , not LIMIT it.

copper is not an antibiotic, it does not build immunity in germs, it kills them

not sure what the value of the copper flashlight germicidal properties are, but I think it is very interesting

by that I mean, killing germs on doorknobs in hospitals, helps people who touch them. So, lending you my copper flashlight, which I have no plans to do anyway, might be less contagious than if I hand you my Titanium one, not that Im contagious or anything

it just an interesting feature of Copper, thats all 

Although, I do admit Im wondering if I could use a copper or silver coin, or flashlight, to disinfect a cut .. Maybe put it under the bandaid for a few hours, LOL

and btw, putting silver and or copper coins in a water bottle, keeps bacteria down. The pioneers used to put coins in their water barrels to control algae too. Ive been putting silver and copper coins in my water bottle for a while, as you can see, it has not had a very bad effect on my intelligence, or, has it?;-)


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## Berneck1 (Apr 18, 2015)

Agreed, it is very interesting. It's just not something I would consider. Watch my flashlight kill me now after saying that...lolol

I've read a lot about these things because I have dealt with a lot of health issues over the past 10 years or so. You don't quite appreciate your health when you're ok. For me, I am far more concerned with chemicals, "fake foods", and other environmental concerns that are causing a lot of sickness and chronic issues that cannot be explained.

I personally think that the odor given off by the copper exponentially outweighs any added benefit you might receive in antimicrobial properties. Another thing to consider is make sure the light is raw copper. Any coating to make it shiny, etc could significantly reduce its antimicrobial abilities.


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## Str8stroke (Apr 18, 2015)

Ok, so....Why buy a copper flashlight is the question, I guess? Along with, should I like the fact copper has a odor and can be antimicrobial? Perplexing post to me.

So, anyway................I like the smell of copper. Most importantly, to me, I buy it because I like the patina. You basically are buying a flashlight that you can make different colors. If you like it to shine, bust out the ketchup, if you like that vintage look, bust out the salt & vinegar chips. 

Value? I think copper lights have a higher resale value. Some folks like me collect copper objects. 
Antimicrobial? Folks in the medical field often use copper pens for this reason. So a copper flashlight could be a good idea for that purpose. Basically, if you are mysophobic, then copper is for you! 

I have one more question?

What did the copper flashlight say to the germs?? 


Cu later.


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## tom- (Apr 18, 2015)

Remember that copper is also a necessary nutrient:laughing:


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## jon_slider (Apr 18, 2015)

Str8stroke said:


> Why buy a copper flashlight is the question,................I like the smell of copper. ...
> Cu later.



Lol I C what U did there
Please let me be more clear, I dont want you perplexed
Should I buy a CU Maratac or is the smell a problem?
you answered that, you like the smell.. sounds good

Have you also handled a Brass Maratac, and does the material also smell good to you, or not much of a smell factor? Do you also like Brass, or is Copper the real deal and Brass a wanna be?
Im really just talking myself into a CU , thanks for the encouragement.

Maybe I can learn to Love the smell of CU in the morning, LOL


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## WalkIntoTheLight (Apr 18, 2015)

You're not smelling copper. You're smelling the oils in your skin that react with the copper. You're smelling your own body odor, not the copper. If it smells good to you... well, I hope you live alone!


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## Str8stroke (Apr 18, 2015)

I have the Copper & Brass Betas. I have only the Copper Maratac lights. But I like them all. Funny thing is I can smell them both and tell you which is which. I love the look of brass, but prefer copper. Due to the many looks it can have.
Fu
Here is a link to a copper thread for some more pics. C what U think. 

http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?338453-Show-off-your-copper


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## tom- (Apr 18, 2015)

The op categorically/unequivocally is not smelling his own body odor, the aroma is caused by the copper plain and simple-but for the metal there would not be an olfactory sensation-or rather not one as being posted about.


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## thedoc007 (Apr 19, 2015)

tom- said:


> The op categorically/unequivocally is not smelling his own body odor, the aroma is caused by the copper plain and simple-but for the metal there would not be an olfactory sensation-or rather not one as being posted about.



That is incorrect. As usual, the reality is more complicated. Removing either variable would change the result. Copper by itself would not produce a strong odor either...it is an interaction between two objects, and you can't say the result is based entirely on one or the other.


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## tom- (Apr 19, 2015)

doc, I understand 'body odor' to be bacteriological what the op is experiencing is the reaction between normally occurring secretions from the hand which I believe include but are not limited to; salts, water and oils These elements/chemicals/compounds combine with copper and a very acidic (be it water soluble or not) but required product called flux to produce a very distinct aroma-which never varies . 

Additionally, if it were simply 'body odor' logic, to me, would dictate that the aroma would have to vary from person to person as individuals are just that. The body chemistry from those overweight should differ from those not overweight, the secretions from medicated should be different from those who are not medicated, add in the variables which would have to be present by: diet (I have been a vegetarian for over 40 years) , workplace/environmental exposures, stress and even ethnicity and the ability to get a constant odor, an absolutely constant odor, would seem to be impossible-if the position is that secretions are the catalyst or cause.

Remove the copper and one removes the odor, relative to the discussion at hand.


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## tom- (Apr 19, 2015)

I neglected to add that the complete antimicrobial qualities of copper tube, whether made from virgin ore or combined with recycled materials, even further argues against a bacterial or body odor cause for any smell. I have taken apart potable systems well over fifty years old-from private untreated supplies and municipal/central systems involving filtering and the addition of chlorine/fluorides and the inside of the tube is, visually, as clean as new.

A mutant discussion of cause/effect of the severely oxidized exterior of old copper tube and odor might be presented but this similarly would be flawed as to repair such tube would require such thorough cleaning or rather should require such thorough cleaning that the old tube would be essentially as clean as new.
And remember the act of proper prepping tube invariably results in fine antimicrobial copper particles getting in contact with ones hands even further complicating the body odor cause for me.

No doc in my opinion remove the copper and the aroma under discussion is also removed-100% of the time.


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## thedoc007 (Apr 19, 2015)

tom- said:


> No doc in my opinion remove the copper and the aroma under discussion is also removed-100% of the time.



Yes, but the converse is just as true. Don't touch the copper, and it won't give off a strong odor either. The process is an interaction...just because removing one variable changes the result, doesn't mean that the other variable is not important too. Removing EITHER variable changes the result...therefore it is wrong to say one or the other is the sole cause. Put another way, neither the copper nor the hand causes the aroma...it takes both! This is not a complicated concept.

I won't argue any further here...feel free to PM me, but I'm not willing to derail the thread any more than we already have.


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## jon_slider (Apr 19, 2015)

Thank you Gentlemen. I agree, Copper + human touch = smell. Also agree it is a chemical reaction. Ive decided to preprogram my reaction to "oooh, copper, smells sanitary" . Will let you know how that goes over. Similar wait and tell on the "Constant Color" feature.. CU Soon


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## DellSuperman (Apr 19, 2015)

jon_slider said:


> Thank you Gentlemen. I agree, Copper + human touch = smell. Also agree it is a chemical reaction. Ive decided to preprogram my reaction to "oooh, copper, smells sanitary" . Will let you know how that goes over. Similar wait and tell on the "Constant Color" feature.. CU Soon



I laughed so hard at the "CU soon" [emoji23]


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## recDNA (Apr 19, 2015)

When copper turns green does it still kill germs?


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## jon_slider (Apr 19, 2015)

recDNA said:


> When copper turns green does it still kill germs?


Yes
see the link I gave in the first post for more info, which includes:
"Faster corrosion correlates with faster inactivation of microorganisms. This may be due to increased availability of cupric ion, Cu2+, which is believed to be responsible for the antimicrobial action.[20]"

My reading of that is as copper corrodes, more free copper is available to kill bacteria. Also, imo, the corrosion, increases the amount of copper elemental peaks and valleys for bacteria to get caught up in. So imho, yes, tarnished copper kills bacteria as well or better than polished copper.​


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## nbp (Apr 19, 2015)

I would say that given the massive amount of microorganisms you come into contact with on every other surface you touch in a a day, not including those you collect through all your mucous membranes, the food you eat, and the liquids you consume, the few moments you spend touching a copper light with be inconsequential in the grand scheme of things when it comes to fighting illness and infection. 

Wash your hands regularly, get plenty of rest and healthful foods, and buy the flashlight you like, regardless of material.


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## jon_slider (Apr 19, 2015)

nbp said:


> the few moments you spend touching a copper light with be inconsequential... buy the flashlight you like...



I agree handling a copper flashlight is not going to kill bacteria inside my body. However, bacteria on my hands, that attaches itself to my copper flashlight, will die. So the next person to touch the flashlight, including me, will be touching a sterile object. Otoh, If I pick my nose when Im sick, and handle my Stainless flashlight, the stainless will not kill the bacteria on the flashlight. So the next time I, or anyone else, touches the stainless light, they are touching live bacteria that were deposited earlier.

I agree, buy the flashlight you like. If the antibacterial feature of Copper helps you commit to spending money, like I just did, enjoy it!.. One more thing, Copper is a Conversation Piece, as this thread clearly shows. Now I can impress my friends with cool new words like Oligodynamic, and I can let them touch my self sterilizing flashlight after I pick my nose, or held the light in my mouth.. LOL

Bottom line on a Stainless light, Bacteria stay alive. otoh, a Copper light, decreases in Bacteria count, between uses.


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## nbp (Apr 19, 2015)

I'd like to see some actual data on that. While it may be antimicrobial to an extent, you certainly cannot call a regularly used flashlight taken from your pocket sterile. Unless you are running it through an autoclave or using cold sterilants proven to kill bacteria and destroy viruses, it cannot be called sterile. That's a bit of a stretch. 

Anyways, bacteria live a very short time on cool dry surfaces. Within hours most of them are going to die on a metal surface like a flashlight, regardless of material. That's why when they do tests on microorganism counts, toilet seats are cleaner than kitchen sinks. Warm, wet places breed bacteria. Dry, cool surfaces do not. I bet money your cell phone screen is dirtier than your flashlight.


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## jon_slider (Apr 19, 2015)

nbp said:


> I'd like to see some actual data on that.



Start by reading the link I gave in the first post 

While on the subject of antibacterial flashlight materials, and accessories, here is a bit more information for your entertainment.

I plan to add a magnet to the tail of my light. It will have the North Pole exposed, since this is the best one to use to kill bacteria 
http://www.biomagscience.net/about/which-side-biomagnet-use-it-matters
these are the magnets I plan to use
http://www.ebay.com/itm/251289660226?_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

I hope that is not a violation of forum rules, posting non photo links. If anyone would like a couple free 1/2" by 1/16" Neodymium magnets, PM me your mailing.


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## tom- (Apr 19, 2015)

Don't know about the rest but for me this is interesting-the continual quest for the brightest light does get a bit old at times...

MERSA has been found, viable, in CA beach sand

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/270670.php

As for oxidized copper tube, exterior, I would imagine that the coating-patina would negate the wonderful effects of copper; the green stuff is indicative of either too much flux or a failure to wipe clean the joints or, usually- both (the master I apprenticed with so many years ago was quite fond of assigning new kids to the task of wiping each and every solder joint first with a soapy water solution then with only water-if you happened to get busted quenching joints you got a day off-he could hear the sizzle three rooms away.)


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## CarpentryHero (Apr 19, 2015)

Yeah I mind the smell, but not enough to not buy a flashlight if I like everything else about it


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## night.hoodie (Apr 20, 2015)

nbp said:


> I would say that given the massive amount of microorganisms you come into contact with on every other surface you touch in a a day, not including those you collect through all your mucous membranes, the food you eat, and the liquids you consume, the few moments you spend touching a copper light with be inconsequential in the grand scheme of things when it comes to fighting illness and infection.





nbp said:


> I'd like to see some actual data on that. While it may be antimicrobial to an extent, you certainly cannot call a regularly used flashlight taken from your pocket sterile. Unless you are running it through an autoclave or using cold sterilants proven to kill bacteria and destroy viruses, it cannot be called sterile. That's a bit of a stretch.
> 
> Anyways, bacteria live a very short time on cool dry surfaces. Within hours most of them are going to die on a metal surface like a flashlight, regardless of material. That's why when they do tests on microorganism counts, toilet seats are cleaner than kitchen sinks. Warm, wet places breed bacteria. Dry, cool surfaces do not. I bet money your cell phone screen is dirtier than your flashlight.




npb, sounds like you are skeptical about oligodynamism. It does kind of sound like snake oil, but its really pure gold. Yes, in fact, a piece of silver or copper will indeed self-sterilize (given enough time) and the effect is very pronounced and well above the noise of merely exposing microbes to air. The oligodynamism of brass is related to how much copper it has. If you are constantly handling something that self-sterilizes, though there are no studies to back this up, I suggest that it will keep your hands a little cleaner than otherwise. Enough hospitals have committed to using copper/brass door knobs that it is becoming trendy. This is a recent big trend to use certain metals that display this property for this reason, but not a new one. It is difficult for me to imagine that its just a coincidence that silver was chosen for silverware without knowledge of the oligodynamic effect.


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## easilyled (Apr 20, 2015)

So, I'll be ok if I handle my collection regularly?


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## Berneck1 (Apr 20, 2015)

easilyled said:


> So, I'll be ok if I handle my collection regularly?



Sweet collection....


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## nbp (Apr 20, 2015)

night.hoodie said:


> npb, sounds like you are skeptical about oligodynamism. It does kind of sound like snake oil, but its really pure gold.



I admitted that they have some antimicrobial properties; silver for example has long been used for such things. I know people who take colloidal silver religiously for purported health benefits. But coming from a biology background and previous work environments where we produced OTC drug products and equipment had to be actually sanitized using heat/steam and/or cold sterilants, you can perhaps forgive me if I don't identify copper flashlights as a panacea for dirty hands. Is there perhaps some small advantage in having a copper light for this reason? Sure, it's better than nothing. But in the grand scheme of things, proper hygiene and sanitation practices are going to be orders of magnitude more effective. You'll notice that copper doorknobs have not eradicated MRSA, C. diff, strep and staff from hospitals. Maybe the scalpels and clamps should be copper too...

Of course, I am giving you a hard time.  But my point remains, buy the light you light, regardless of metal. The potential help benefits of carrying a copper flashlight are probably not statistically significant. If you get it because you like it, and it happens to kill some e.coli on your paws from your bathroom visit in the meantime, all the better.


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## jon_slider (Apr 20, 2015)

nbp said:


> You'll notice that copper doorknobs have not eradicated MRSA, C. diff, strep and staff from hospitals.


If youre going to be a debbie downer, at least read the links Ive offered. Of course, I am giving you a hard time. But my point remains. ;-)
http://antimicrobialcopper.com/us/scientific-proof/registration-against-bacteria/mrsa.aspx
"many copper alloys can legally claim a 99.9% kill of MRSA within two hours"


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## KITROBASKIN (Apr 21, 2015)

From your link:

The use of Antimicrobial Copper surfaces does not replace standard hospital infection control and prevention procedures and good hygienic practices such as hand washing. Antimicrobial Copper surfaces should be cleaned and sanitized regularly according to standard practices, just like other surfaces. .

That website seems to be funded by an alliance of copper manufacturers. Nothing wrong with that, but should be known. One opinion


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## easilyled (Apr 21, 2015)

Berneck1 said:


> Sweet collection....
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Candlepowerforums



Thanks. Its good to know that I'm sterilising myself at the same time I pick them up to admire them.


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## Berneck1 (Apr 21, 2015)

nbp said:


> I admitted that they have some antimicrobial properties; silver for example has long been used for such things. I know people who take colloidal silver religiously for purported health benefits. But coming from a biology background and previous work environments where we produced OTC drug products and equipment had to be actually sanitized using heat/steam and/or cold sterilants, you can perhaps forgive me if I don't identify copper flashlights as a panacea for dirty hands. Is there perhaps some small advantage in having a copper light for this reason? Sure, it's better than nothing. But in the grand scheme of things, proper hygiene and sanitation practices are going to be orders of magnitude more effective. You'll notice that copper doorknobs have not eradicated MRSA, C. diff, strep and staff from hospitals. Maybe the scalpels and clamps should be copper too...
> 
> Of course, I am giving you a hard time.  But my point remains, buy the light you light, regardless of metal. The potential help benefits of carrying a copper flashlight are probably not statistically significant. If you get it because you like it, and it happens to kill some e.coli on your paws from your bathroom visit in the meantime, all the better.



Fully agree. Good old soap and water is far better...


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## recDNA (Apr 21, 2015)

easilyled said:


> So, I'll be ok if I handle my collection regularly?


How do you keep them from oxidizing?

BTW, I also have a biology background and I know copper compunds are very effective in treating certain infectious diseases in fish. 

Of course too much copper kills the fish too! 

It's a fun topic but clean metal of any variety is inhospitable to bacteria. It is kind of a fun fact to know and tell that copper flashlights are unlikely to harbor germs. It certainly won't have any significant effect germs on your hands. Nosicomial infections are such a serious problem that copper hardware in hospitals is probably a good idea.


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## Str8stroke (Apr 21, 2015)

Ketchup works well on copper.


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## WalkIntoTheLight (Apr 21, 2015)

recDNA said:


> How do you keep them from oxidizing?



Yes, the copper ones look great. (I'm not so keen on the look of brass.) Pity that one in the middle isn't all copper.

He must polish and oil them to keep the copper from going green. I don't think they'd have to be polished very often, as long as they aren't exposed to water.


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## easilyled (Apr 21, 2015)

recDNA said:


> How do you keep them from oxidizing?



I don't find that they need much upkeep, just the occasional wipe with a duster and a dab of metal polish. Then they look like new again. The light on the bottom also features in my avatar.


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## jon_slider (Apr 22, 2015)

I just got a Copper Maratac and love the material. Turns out it does not make my hands smell bad at all. Just a little clean smell, LOL, or as a friend said, Thats the Smell of Money! Click for First Impressions


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## night.hoodie (May 5, 2015)

Regarding the oder some experience with Cu, if you handled with gloves, you would not experience the smell. A room full of people who never noticed the smell handling Copper also is some evidence that the oder is somewhat caused by those that can smell it. One of the things I have hard learned is that just because I perceive and experience something I cannot deny does not mean that anyone else will. 




nbp said:


> Is there perhaps some small advantage in having a copper light for this reason? Sure, it's better than nothing.



So... a hypothetical:

Bad storm. Flooding. Electricity gone for a few weeks. Everything is damp, and there's nothing for it but to wait out the lack of utilities. You were prepared, and have lots of charged eneloops kept dry.

Between the two choices of otherwise identical edc lights, one a non-oligodynamic Titanium host, one super-duper microbe smashing Copper host... on week three... which one are you more comfortable briefly holding in your mouth while you do something with your hands that you've been unable to fully sanitize for 6 hours or more? 

Circumstances dictate the importance of certain features, and we don't stand still, so that's in flux. As you've suggested choosing these materials for use in microbe-rich environments is a decent precaution, but I see it as a more fundamental precaution. But one can not ever be certain that utilities that support our good hygene and health will never fail. Its always going to get dark later. And there's always going to be microbes around that can make us sick.

A flashlight, after all, is an auxiliary tool only needed when the primary lighting tool is insufficient. If the primary is gone, chances are probably about even there's other utilities gone with it. 

How many drive 4WD vehicles and never really needed to? Well... "what if" messes with need.


---
easilyled, wow!


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## nbp (May 5, 2015)

I regularly put lights in my mouth, and I have never "sanitized" any of them. And I rarely ever get sick despite such risky decisions, lol. I'm really not that concerned about the bug killing power of my flashlight. I suppose your cell phone and wallet and other common EDC items are also made of super duper bacteria crushing copper? If not, I would be careful about putting that phone to your face.


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## WalkIntoTheLight (May 5, 2015)

nbp said:


> I regularly put lights in my mouth, and I have never "sanitized" any of them. And I rarely ever get sick despite such risky decisions, lol. I'm really not that concerned about the bug killing power of my flashlight. I suppose your cell phone and wallet and other common EDC items are also made of super duper bacteria crushing copper? If not, I would be careful about putting that phone to your face.



Yes, good point. Sterilizing your flashlight is probably one of the least important things to sterilize in a dirty environment. And if my flashlight is covered in poop, I wouldn't stick it in my mouth whether it's copper or titanium.


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## G. Scott H. (May 6, 2015)

I get a pretty stong smell when I handle CU. It doesn't really bother me, but it's quite noticeable. I'm aware of the antimicrobial properties of copper, but it's never been a factor in deciding to use it. I don't currently have any copper lights, but I've made some knife parts and other little doodads out of it. I like it simply because it is beautiful (also easy to work). For sanitation purposes, nothing beats a simple hand washing before eating, rubbing your eyes, picking your nose, etc. :twothumbs


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## jon_slider (May 6, 2015)

night.hoodie said:


> the oder is somewhat caused by those that can smell it.


yes
http://www.bioedonline.org/news/nature-news/metallic-smell-just-body-odor/
"These compounds are produced by rapid reactions between iron or copper and oils on our skin."



night.hoodie said:


> … Between the two choices of otherwise identical edc lights, one a non-oligodynamic Titanium host, one super-duper microbe smashing Copper host... on week three... which one are you more comfortable briefly holding in your mouth while you do something with your hands that you've been unable to fully sanitize for 6 hours or more?


Copper kills in 90 minutes. 
Titanium keeps bacteria alive, Titanium weighs less.
In a contaminated setting, Copper will be less contaminated.


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## BigBluefish (May 6, 2015)

All this discussion of body oder, Cu smell, and lights-in-the-mouth may seriously reduce the second-hand market value of copper flashlights. Pity, because after reading this thread, I also no longer have any interest in buying one....


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## chuckhov (May 6, 2015)

+1 to that!
-Chuck


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## jon_slider (May 6, 2015)

I thought the smell of copper would bother me, because I once put my hand on a fully copper clad bar, and it smelled funny.

But the amount of copper to hand contact that I get with my Maratac does not produce any noticeable smell.

The concern about copper smell was a prepurchase objection, that turned out to be irrelevant in actual use.

If youre concerned about germs from putting a light in your mouth, copper does kill the germs, aluminum, stainless or titanium do not.


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## night.hoodie (May 6, 2015)

jon_slider said:


> Copper kills in 90 minutes.
> Titanium keeps bacteria alive, Titanium weighs less.
> In a contaminated setting, Copper will be less contaminated.



A microbe-contaminated copper surface will probably be close to sterile in 90 minutes. But there are significantly less trouble-making microbes on its surface in only 10 minutes. But it is a very fair point to highlight that Ti has properties that in circumstance may be superior to copper-- its weight.

This wiki paragraph has more info about oligodynamism than the wiki entry for the oligodynamic effect:
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copper#Antimicrobial_applications
and this
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antimicrobial_properties_of_copper


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## jon_slider (May 6, 2015)

night.hoodie said:


> A microbe-contaminated copper surface will probably be close to sterile in 90 minutes. ...


thanks for the very interesting links
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antimicrobial_properties_of_copper
This antimicrobial effect is shown by ions of copper …
Faster corrosion correlates with faster inactivation of microorganisms. This may be due to increased availability of cupric ion, Cu2+, which is believed to be responsible for the antimicrobial action.[20]
---
I imagine that putting my copper maratac in a glass of water overnight, would sanitize the water, which could be used as hand and cookware sanitizer in the morning 
Rubbing the patina off the flashlight with my hands would also add sanitizing ions to my hands.
see those blue green patina deposits in the crevices? Thats what sterile looks like , and it smells clean, like money.. lol


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## ForrestChump (May 8, 2015)

WalkIntoTheLight said:


> Yes, good point. Sterilizing your flashlight is probably one of the least important things to sterilize in a dirty environment. And if my flashlight is covered in poop, I wouldn't stick it in my mouth whether it's copper or titanium.




What about brass?


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## jon_slider (May 8, 2015)

*This message is hidden because ForrestChump is on your ignore list.*


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## ForrestChump (May 8, 2015)

jon_slider said:


> What about brass? Did you read the thread title and the first page?



Lets try again:



WalkIntoTheLight said:


> Yes, good point. Sterilizing your flashlight is probably one of the least important things to sterilize in a dirty environment. *And if my flashlight is covered in poop, I wouldn't stick it in my mouth whether it's copper or titanium.*



What about Brass?


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## ForrestChump (May 8, 2015)

jon_slider said:


> *This message is hidden because ForrestChump is on your ignore list.*



 



StarHalo said:


> Wouldn't leaving your flashlight in the sun for a moment be more anti microbial than the material it's made of?



Interesting post.

UV light is actually very effective in sterilization. If Im not mistaken, I believe this is how most municipal water is treated during part of the sterilization process to insure there aren't any harmeful critters in our tap water. I have also read about sterilizing water in emergencies simple by filling a water bottle from a stream and basically just saturating it in the sun all day. Then you got products on the market like Steripen that utilize UV light to purify clear water.

As far as time goes I would imagine it would be a day or two if you rotated a light and obviously how soiled it was. I think the _heat_ from the sun in combination of the metal and UV would be very effective on a unsoiled light, as in no grime....

That said, If I feel my light dirty.... I just hit it with some soap and water or rubbing alcohol.... Way more effective than sitting in the sun or the material it's manufactured from. Although I do find Copper lights pretty awesome....


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## night.hoodie (May 9, 2015)

ForrestChump said:


> As far as time goes I would imagine it would be a day or two if you rotated a light



Not sure about the efficacy of sunlight... I mean, I know the sun kills smelly stuff, but I've never seen any studies on how long it takes. 254nm nearly instantly renders little beasties harmless, just rips through their DNA totally messing up their program, no need to wait all day, and that is in sunlight. The main trouble is that light does not penetrate the opaque surfaces of objects, can only sterilize what it hits. Its nice that water and air are reasonably transparant, pretty neat cosmic coincidence.

anacdote: I bought an ARC-UV, 375nm, one of my first lights, for the purpose of sterilizing stuff with light, before I really researched what light is best for sterilizing, which is UV-C, specifically 254nm that is the best. The Arc, and most UV flashlights, are really too high in the spectrum for efficient sterilization. But LED is not a laserbeam of a single wavelength. Well... one day, I left the Arc shining for some time on a surface, and left... and upon returning (maybe 1-2 hours), I noticed the distinct (electrical/clean) smell of o-zone. UV-C light ~100nm forms ozone. My ARC-UV 375nm apparently puts out some lower frequency light (as well as visible higher violet/royal blue tones), at least down to 100nm, which crosses 254nm... so it must be doing SOMETHING to those little monsters. I'm sure they don't like it.


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## ForrestChump (May 9, 2015)

night.hoodie said:


> Its nice that water and air are reasonably transparant, pretty neat cosmic coincidence.




Good catch.

I had a similarly weird moment with the concept of water. It's pretty radical stuff.........


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## karbon007 (May 10, 2015)

I have no issues with the smell and love my copper lights.


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## MikeSalt (Feb 4, 2016)

A very interesting article here, makes sense why the spray jets in a urinal are copper too :green:


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## easilyled (Feb 4, 2016)

MikeSalt said:


> A very interesting article here, makes sense why the spray jets in a urinal are copper too :green:



I still wouldn't appreciate a splashback though, even if the entire urinal was copper!


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## jon_slider (Feb 4, 2016)

_Main article: __Antimicrobial copper-alloy touch surfaces_
… copper… against… bacteria, molds, fungiand viruses.
… *Copper* handrails, … *bathrooms* … *approved for* *hospitals*, … to kill harmful bacteria. 



easilyled said:


> urinal ... copper!


Caution, clicking the following links can blow your mind 
Frank Lloyd Wright
Health
Spirituality

I used Miracle Grow to get the green patina on this Copper light


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## LeanBurn (Feb 4, 2016)

..but do they wear well rubbing against other metal?


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## jon_slider (Feb 4, 2016)

LeanBurn said:


> … do they wear well rubbing against other metal?



I agree with others that copper is too heavy to use on a keychain. I prefer pocket carry. But, I dont worry about copper wearing out.. Pennies seem to do fine...

I love my copper experience:













Ive even had copper Maratacs modded for LED and Driver swaps… in AAA size, copper is my absolute favorite flashlight material.. ymmv


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## easilyled (Feb 5, 2016)

Do you think that if you put copper pennies in between your toes that it would prevent/cure Athlete's Foot?


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## jon_slider (Feb 5, 2016)

easilyled said:


> … copper… cure Athlete's Foot?



I dont have athletes foot, have you tried carrying a copper flashlight?
Copper socks work for Chilean miners.


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## easilyled (Feb 6, 2016)

jon_slider said:


> I dont have athletes foot, have you tried carrying a copper flashlight?
> Copper socks work for Chilean miners.



I have many beautiful high-end copper flashlights, but not because of their medicinal properties .... just because I think copper is a beautiful looking metal.


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## jon_slider (Feb 6, 2016)

easilyled said:


> I think copper is a beautiful looking metal.



I agree! 
Would be curious to see a pic or two, and wonder if you polish them to stay shiny?

In some parallel universe, copper exerts a form of mind control on humans, compelling them to post in online discussion forums, as a means of propagation. The copper made me say that


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## Tachead (Feb 6, 2016)

I personally am not a fan of copper flashlights. It is heavy, prone to corrosion(high maintenance), and very soft(wears easily and is overly prone to damage). Not to mention the smell. The slightly higher heatsinking potential and antimicrobial properties are far from enough to out way the disadvantages to me. YMMV. As for the aesthetics of copper, flashlights are tools to me not show pieces or jewelry. Again, YMMV.


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## easilyled (Feb 6, 2016)

jon_slider said:


> I agree!
> Would be curious to see a pic or two, and wonder if you polish them to stay shiny?



Yes, I'm a polisher.


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## jon_slider (Feb 6, 2016)

easilyled said:


> Yes, I'm a polisher.



Outstanding! Functional art 
Im really enjoying the variety pictured, Thank You!

I dont usually requote a full post, but in this case, Im just wow!


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## easilyled (Feb 6, 2016)

jon_slider said:


> Outstanding! Functional art
> Im really enjoying the variety pictured, Thank You!
> 
> I dont usually requote a full post, but in this case, Im just wow!



Thank you.


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## phosphor22 (Feb 6, 2016)

Don't mind the smell at all - and I love my copper ReyLight Tool.

Those are some beautiful lights easilyled...

I also like the green and/or blue trit combination with copper - which makes sense given that on the color wheel, 'orange' (i.e., copper) has as its opposite blue (and green is close to blue on the color wheel); opposites create a pleasant visual 'tension.' A little color theory for a cold Feb. evening.


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## easilyled (Feb 6, 2016)

phosphor22 said:


> Don't mind the smell at all - and I love my copper ReyLight Tool.
> 
> Those are some beautiful lights easilyled...
> 
> I also like the green and/or blue trit combination with copper - which makes sense given that on the color wheel, 'orange' (i.e., copper) has as its opposite blue (and green is close to blue on the color wheel); opposites create a pleasant visual 'tension.' A little color theory for a cold Feb. evening.



Thanks for the color theory phosphor22. Its going to come in useful as I have taken up painting recently and am still a relative novice.


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## jon_slider (Oct 18, 2016)

*Miracle Patina*

This N219 Tool/Maratac lego has become my Ultimate EDC. 





Patina Play






more info on the disinfectant applications of Copper
copper kills E. coli and Salmonella
Copper sanitizes Drinking Water


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## tom- (Oct 19, 2016)

*Re: Miracle Patina*

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3067274/


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## jon_slider (Oct 19, 2016)

*Re: Miracle Shine*



tom- said:


> https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3067274/


thank you 

that link says Shiny copper kills germs faster than dark patina.

"a thick copper oxide layer, lowered the antimicrobial effectiveness of copper surfaces"

it is easy to make copper shiny again by soaking in catsup






Copper Flashlights disinfect themselves even from E. coli, within 2 hours! But thats not why I bought them. They also work as flashlights 

One of my favorite off the shelf Clicky Copper lights is the Lumintop Copper Tool w Nichia. Here is the ReyLight version, that starts on Low.. with my favorite copper twisties






Olight offers some very nice Raw Copper flashlights also, although none with High CRI, for example the S1

_*hotlinked image removed_

Maratac makes a Copper AA too. None of the Maratacs are High CRI

_*hotlinked image removed_


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## jorn (Oct 20, 2016)

Tachead said:


> I personally am not a fan of copper flashlights. It is heavy, prone to corrosion(high maintenance), and very soft(wears easily and is overly prone to damage). Not to mention the smell. The slightly higher heatsinking potential and antimicrobial properties are far from enough to out way the disadvantages to me. YMMV. As for the aesthetics of copper, flashlights are tools to me not show pieces or jewelry. Again, YMMV.



Yes it's heavy, im fine with that in small lights. Corrosion? no. copper pipes would fail if they corroded that easely. i think it looks good with some platina. Dropped mine four meters to the concrete the copper did not get more damage than the alu. And i not yet seen reports of worn out copper lights. So i dont think they wear out that fast. I cant smell anything bad on my copper lights, maby if i put my nose directly over it and sniff it. Tools can look great, just have a look at the knife and light threads- lots of bling knives with more or less useless bladeshapes. But they look good 

4 meter drop onto concrete. Dent in the copper, dent in the alu.





a little work, and voila, mutch better.




Im not going to polish it anymore i think. like the platina look better.


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## radiopej (Oct 21, 2016)

Yeah, copper has been used for water disinfection for thousands of years. They just didn't know why it was making their water better. The oligodynamic effect.


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## jon_slider (May 15, 2017)

*Re: Miracle Shine*



jon_slider said:


> Maratac makes a Copper AA too. None of the Maratacs are High CRI



update
Maratac now sells a Copper AAA w N219b, and no PWM, it also appears to have a well regulated and efficient driver, with similar outputs as the Lumintop Copper Tool. 

For the last 3 months my EDC has been a Maratac CU AAA w Nichia.. Im really happy with it. 






here is a lumen and runtime comparison of my Copper Tool w Nichia, and my Maratac w Nichia




vertical scale is lumens, horizontal scale is minutes


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## sbslider (May 16, 2017)

*Re: Miracle Shine*

Is this Maratac freshly cleaned in ketchup? Looks beautiful. Or maybe freshly purchased


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## jon_slider (May 16, 2017)

*Re: Copper kills germs, it disinfects itself in 90 minutes*



sbslider said:


> Is this Maratac freshly cleaned in ketchup? Looks beautiful. Or maybe freshly purchased


that is my March 2017 Nichia Maratac, fresh out of the foil
I don't love ketchup, it etches the metal and requires re polishing 

This is an earlier model, also fresh out of the foil, from April 2015, note the knurling has dimples, it was much more aggressive than later models. Lumintop has been reducing the cost of their knurling process.





Here is my 2017 Maratac w Nichia head, on an October 2015 body, today. I had just polished the head (dremmel cloth wheel w green compound, followed by sunshine cloth) a couple of days ago, to eliminate the extra sharpness the knurling had in one direction.





note the Oct 2015 body has no dimples in the knurling. It was the first NoPWM Maratac, followed by the NoPWM Tools
note the 2017 head has flatter knurling. It is the first Maratac w Nichia.


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## sbslider (May 16, 2017)

*Re: Copper kills germs, it disinfects itself in 90 minutes*

So did your polishing remove the dimples, or is it a different head? Sorry I could not figure that out. I have had my maratac for nearly 2 months, and without polish it looks similar to your picture above.


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## jon_slider (May 16, 2017)

*Re: Copper kills germs, it disinfects itself in 90 minutes*

left to right, heads and bodies matched sets
April 2015 w PWM and dimples
Oct 2015 noPWM, no dimples, not flat knurling
March 2017 noPWM, no dimples, very flat knurling





another comparison
April 2015 w dimples, oct 2015 no dimples, not flat, and flat knurling on 2016 Reylight and Tools (as on the 2017 Maratac, thought they have shallower cuts)





another view of the oct 2015 knurling





However despite the difference in polish and style, they are all Copper and Antimicrobial


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## Hogokansatsukan (May 17, 2017)

night.hoodie said:


> This anti-microbial action is known as the oligodynamic effect. Silver's oligodynamic effect is even more pronounced than copper-- thus, silverware sure was a great idea, and curiously, in a silver flask, water can stay potable indefinitely. Aluminum also shares this anti-microbial property. Considering flashlights are tools and tools get dirty, dirt has microbes, microbes can make you sick, so all things being equal, I can't imagine why anyone would not want a flashlight with anti-microbial properties, but if they're out there, they can use Titanium or Steel.



A silver coin was often put in the bottom of water barrels on ships to keep the water fresh. I do the same thing with a titanium water bottle in a bug out bag. Months later, the water is still good to drink. Of course, the coin is 99.99 pure silver.


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## jon_slider (May 17, 2017)

After I learned that the USA settlers traveling West in covered wagons, used silver and copper coins in their water barrels, to prevent algae, I started keeping a USA Silver Walking Liberty 50cent piece in a clear Nalgene bottle filled with water. 

The Nalgene bottle with silver coin, has been sitting in my Van, parked in full sun, for over 6months, and has not developed any algae, nor funky smell. 

The US Silver coins are 90% silver, 10% copper. Both are antibacterial and not harmful to humans. 



jon_slider said:


> http://antimicrobialcopper.com/us/scientific-proof/registration-against-bacteria/mrsa.aspx
> "many copper alloys can legally claim a 99.9% kill of MRSA within two hours"



In India it was traditional for people to collect and store drinking water from rivers and streams, in Copper pots. When they switched to plastic water jugs, cases of infant dysentery and death went up. A study was done that added coils of copper wire to the plastic water jugs, and the dysentery rate, and infant mortality fell. 

Boiling water also kills bacteria, but in poor third world countries, the fuel used for cooking, often charcoal, is very expensive, so drinking water tends not to get boiled first.

http://www.thenational.ae/news/uae-news/technology/simple-copper-device-could-save-millions-of-lives
http://www.grandchallenges.ca/grantee-stars/0259-01/

http://www.rosincerate.com/2015/11/killing-microbes-with-copper-and-silver.html
"_It's long been recognized that storing water in a copper or silver vessel makes it safer to drink. The Smith Papyrus__, an ancient Egyptian medical text, mentions using copper to disinfect drinking water. Alexander the Great brought along silver containers for storing water during his efforts to conquer the world. Old Ayurvedic medical texts advise keeping water in copper or silver pots. The Aztecs, ancient Greeks, and Romans were also into this disinfection approach. American pioneers making their way west during the late 19th century dropped copper or silver coins in their water barrels to slow the growth of microbes during their travels. During WWII, Japanese soldiers did something similar, placing copper pieces in their water bottles to try and avoid dysentery._"


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## Connor (May 17, 2017)

jon_slider said:


> The US Silver coins are 90% silver, 10% copper. Both are antibacterial and not harmful to humans.



_The acute lethal dose for adults lies between 4 and 400 mg of copper(II) ion per kg of body weight, based on data from accidental ingestion and suicide cases (Chuttani et al.,1965; Jantsch et al., 1984–1985; Agarwal et al., 1993). Individuals ingesting large doses of copper present with gastrointestinal bleeding, haematuria, intravascularhaemolysis, methaemoglobinaemia, hepatocellular toxicity, acute renal failure and oliguria (Agarwal et al., 1993). 
At lower doses, copper ions can cause symptoms typical of food poisoning (headache, nausea, vomiting, diarrhoea). ( _http://www.who.int/water_sanitation_health/dwq/chemicals/copper.pdf )


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## archimedes (May 17, 2017)

And you don't want to get argyria either ... :tinfoil:


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## jon_slider (May 18, 2017)

Connor said:


> _The acute lethal dose... 400 mg of copper(II) ion per kg of body weight_


so if I weigh 70 kilos, I should not eat one ounce of copper? good to know, that would mean I should not swallow what, 10 us pennies?


the amount of copper used in the third world water treatment coils comes out to about4.5 ounces (8 feet) of (1/16") wire per gallon of water.. cost $2.50

fwiw, a walking liberty 50 cent piece weighs slightly less than 1/2 ounce, so it would presumably treat 1/8 of a gallon, overnight, to be equivalent to the way copper is being used.. 1/8 of a gallon is 1 pint, or 16 ounces of water

Of course, if I put a silver 50 cent piece in twice as much water, it would presumably just take twice as long, 2 days, to kill bacteria

Meanwhile, if in doubt, boil the water, regardless and don't eat the copper or silver itself;-).. 

ps
Here is the copper content from storing water in copper pots:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3312355/
"Copper content (177±16 *ppb*) in water stored in copper pots was _well within the permissible limits of the World Health Organization_."


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## Connor (May 19, 2017)

jon_slider said:


> so if I weigh 70 kilos, I should not eat one ounce of copper? good to know, that would mean I should not swallow what, 10 us pennies?



Nice editing on my quote that you did there. Also completely missing the point:

You wrote that copper is "_not harmful to humans_". 

I provided scientific evidence that as little as *4* mg/kg body weight of Copper(II) ions can be lethal. That's 0.3 grams for a 75 kg adult. 
"_The acute lethal dose for adults lies between 4 and 400 mg of copper(II) ion per kg of body weight_" does mean that someone actually died from the lower end of the range. 
Conclusion: copper can be harmful to humans and the dose can be quite low. And we're not even talking about long term exposure to lower doses here. 
Check out https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copper_toxicity if you are so inclined. 

Also many of the copper compounds are irritants or toxic. These will form over time just by touching your copper flashlight with your hands. 
As much as I like copper for its physical properties, it's just not a very good material for the outside of a flashlight/handheld tool, esp. not if you use (i.e. touch) it every day.


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## jon_slider (May 19, 2017)

Connor said:


> As much as I like copper for its physical properties, it's just not a very good material for the outside of a flashlight/handheld tool, esp. not if you use (i.e. touch) it every day.



I believe you are mistaken, but thanks for sharing info

http://www.rosincerate.com/2015/11/killing-microbes-with-copper-and-silver.html

_During a 1832 cholera outbreak in Paris, it became apparent that copper workers were less likely to be struck down by the bacterial illness. This ushered in the widespread use of copper salts for the treatment of various infections (e.g. impetigo, tuberculosis, and syphilis), which continued into the early 20th century. These days, touch surfaces such as door handles, railings, and bathroom fixtures in hospitals are increasingly being made out of the metal. In the 18th century, folks began treating crop seeds with copper sulfate to inhibit disease-causing fungi that hitch a ride on them (it's a useful way to stay alive between plant generations). Starting in the 19th century, copper-based solutions (e.g. Bordeaux mixture) were widely used in vineyards to control the growth of grape-eating fungi.

_


Connor said:


> as little as 4 mg/kg body weight of Copper(II) ions can be lethal. That's 0.3 grams for a 75 kg adult



thanks for helping me understand the math better, so, how does 0.3 grams of copper, compare with the 
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3312355/
"Copper content (177±16 ppb) in water stored in copper pots was well within the permissible limits of the World Health Organization."

seems to me your figures are vastly larger than the actual copper exposure from using copper pots, daily
I see no reason to believe that handling a copper flashlight daily would be more harmful than storing water in a copper pot daily

can you help clarify the difference in quantity that 0.3 grams of copper constitutes, compared to 177 ppb?
which number is bigger?

and can you help me quantify how much copper is entering a human body by touching copper surfaces that are used in Hospitals to prevent the spread of Methicillin-resistant Staphylococcus aureus ([FONT=arial, sans-serif]*MRSA)?*[/FONT]

Im interested in learning more, I don't yet understand why you would be concerned about the minuscule doses of copper acquired by storing water, or touching copper. I also don't fully understand the quantities you referenced, for internal doses, and how they relate to the quantities I linked to being present in water stored in copper.

I look forward to learning more with you.


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