# L5, L6. The Hype Is Out. What's The Big Deal?



## Gene (Nov 29, 2003)

*L5, L6. The Hype Is Out. What\'s The Big Deal?*

Okay, I'm a flashaholic like all of you. I go crazy about most new LED lights but after awhile you learn that the excitement goes away fairly quickly. I've tried all of the Surefire LED lights, (excluding the L5/L6), and I have to tell you, the L4 was the most dramatic to me. What a wonderful bright, round beam with a ton of sidespill in such a tiny package and the KL4 head is so adaptable to so many other applications. 

What is causing all the hoopla concerning the L5 and L6 other than they're the latest and greatest? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif In the real world, what makes them such a big deal? They are really very large lights compared to the L4. I've seen the beam shots of the L6 and it is impressive but I've also seen modders make lights from much smaller platforms that are every bit as good.

Do they get hot from continuous use? I put a KL4 on an old, original shiny, gun metal E2 and have used it for up to 15 minutes continuous use and it barely got warm. I've read that the L6 has a pretty good throw but how much better than say, an M4 which seems to be the same size except for the turbo head?

I'm not at all slamming any of these lights but am honestly curious as to why I or anyone else should immediately run out and buy one of these "marvels" other than just adding another light to our arsenals and having the "latest and greatest"? 

I'm also not defending or even comparing the L4 to these lights but I've become a fan of really small, powerful LED lights.


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## CM (Nov 29, 2003)

*Re: L5, L6. The Hype Is Out. What\'s The Big Deal?*

Each one of those lights have their own merits. What you get with the L5, L6 are progressively tighter beams and less sidespill which amounts to more throw. Larger heads also lead to cooler running lights and presumably longer LED life because of that, or longer runtimes with less thermal concerns. The L6 also has a longer runtime per FC's findings, which one would expect from a 3 cell vs 2 cell light. 

These are not for everyone obviously, it depends on what you require from your light. I find I need long throw sometimes though I do like the L4 for near field lighting and the small package but it does run a lot hotter than the L5 that I have. Different lights for different needs.

CM


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## Bill.H (Nov 29, 2003)

*Re: L5, L6. The Hype Is Out. What\'s The Big Deal?*

IMO, they'd be really awesome if they weren't so big and/or didn't run through batteries so fast. Otherwise, I'm not any more impressed than I am by most other modern LED lights.

(Disclaimer: I haven't seen one in person, just read about them)

I suspect the Arc LS4/5 will be the real "superlights".


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## Dukester (Nov 29, 2003)

*Re: L5, L6. The Hype Is Out. What\'s The Big Deal?*

Outside the fact that I think the L6 is butt ugly. Don't know whether to turn on the switch or throw it over my head and run for cover. I was hoping that the L6 would be my first SureFire aquisition. All the speculative hype a few weeks back had me almost digging out the plastic, I am glad I didn't. I am let down thinking that the L6 would be every bit the king of throws compared to the L4 but it seems like it's sweet spot is somewhere between 15 & 20 yds which IMHO is not far at all. I say what's the point of a flashlight if one cannot see beyond 45 to 60' outside at night. The whole idea of flashlights is to extend ones night vision, right?

So for an extra $100 the big difference between the L4 and L6 is the depth of the bezel? Oh, cannot forget the better design in the heatsink. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif

Enough said, maybe the L7, L8, L9 or even the much talked about L10 will be my chosen one /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif 

Different strokes for different folks.


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## TACTICAL WAREHOUSE (Nov 29, 2003)

*Re: L5, L6. The Hype Is Out. What\'s The Big Deal?*

I was just using my L5 and L6 outside - Thinking to myself what incredible lights these are! I live in the woods and these lights work incredibly well in the woods! The center hot spot pierces through the woods, between the trees, while the spill lights up a wide area with a brilliant white light! I guess the more you use them, the more you love them! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif I won't be parting with mine!

Dan


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## Gene (Nov 30, 2003)

*Re: L5, L6. The Hype Is Out. What\'s The Big Deal?*

CM,
I totally agree with you in different lights for different needs. Like I said though, I have a KL4 on an old E2 shiny, gun metal body and it didn't get hot, (or even warm), in 15 minutes extended use. I don't know why the L6 would be worth the big time extra money, (even for somewhat extra throw), but to each their own. The KL5 head looks interesting though but not enough to make me sell my versatile KL4.

Dukester,
I totally agree and have said so in another thread that these things are butt ugly and not to mention BIG!

If I want to "reach out and touch something", my UBH and KT2 turbo head with an MN60 LA does the job well with less cost!


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## MR Bulk (Nov 30, 2003)

*Re: L5, L6. The Hype Is Out. What\'s The Big Deal?*

I am thinking we are just jaded. We are spoiled by over-the-top mods. But none of the modders including myself ever said our lights came with a warranty, as they're mods, near-experimental at best. And as long as they don't arrive DOA on your doorstep you are on your own after that.

If I had to risk a lifetime warranty as SureFire does I would be much, Much, MUCH more conservative about how I design, build, and drive my mods. And the bottom line of that concept is they wouldn't be as bright.

But I am of the opinion that, again as Flashoholics we are jaded. The moment something "better" comes out we rush to buy it, wallets and wives willing. And that is why I do the right-on-the-brink thing with my mods, because by the time they (ever) burn out, there will have been a whole generation or two of better lights that came out since.

But the Surefires, Streamlights, Pelicans, UKs, PTs, and even the (*ahem*) Mags, et al, will have been passed down to a whole generation or two of our own (hopefully Flashoholicized) descendants, all still running great and STILL under warranty!

Everything is in balance, and I feel it is best to own a mix of both super high-performance mods (use frequently at your own risk), or dependable and practical LIFETIME lights offering moderate, yet well bright enough for the average Joe/Jane, performance levels.

The really good thing about mods is that we are in essence acting as a remote lab for the big players. Under intense pressure to rush new lights to market given the burgeoning pace at which LED technology is proceeding, the mfrs. don't have the time or luxury of having a few (hundred) Flashoholics test out bleeding edge flashlight technology, and they have found out (and are still discovering) all sorts of aspects to modified lights that they themselves would never have thought to test in their understandably constricted engineering division environments.

That's my take at least...


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## Darell (Nov 30, 2003)

*Re: L5, L6. The Hype Is Out. What\'s The Big Deal?*

[ QUOTE ]
*Bill.H said:*
I suspect the Arc LS4/5 will be the real "superlights". 

[/ QUOTE ]
I'd hesitate before comparing a 9V, 5W light (L6) with a 3V, 1W light (LS4). It isn't a fair fight. Though I'm not really sure what is meant by "superlight."


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## Owen (Nov 30, 2003)

*Re: L5, L6. The Hype Is Out. What\'s The Big Deal?*

Yeah, statements like that are what made the L5 and L6 sound like huge flops to me when they finally came out. 
"Throw is here, blah, blah, blah" _Whatevverrrr_ /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif
I would never buy one (L5, L6), since they don't appear to perform up to their price tag, but I think they had to be made. It's progress...


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## Radiant (Nov 30, 2003)

*Re: L5, L6. The Hype Is Out. What\'s The Big Deal?*

[ QUOTE ]
*MR Bulk said:*
Under intense pressure to rush new lights to market given the burgeoning pace at which LED technology is proceeding

[/ QUOTE ]

Less talk, more work on Super Baby Pin! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/poke2.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/yellowlaugh.gif


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## Sean (Nov 30, 2003)

*Re: L5, L6. The Hype Is Out. What\'s The Big Deal?*

[ QUOTE ]
*Dukester said:*
I am let down thinking that the L6 would be every bit the king of throws compared to the L4 but it seems like it's sweet spot is somewhere between 15 & 20 yds which IMHO is not far at all. I say what's the point of a flashlight if one cannot see beyond 45 to 60' outside at night. The whole idea of flashlights is to extend ones night vision, right?


[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not sure what you mean. Are you talking about the L4 or L6? My L6 easily shines over 100'. I have some beams shots at ~80' on my website inside a gym with the lights out. In pitch dark outside with nothing but starlight the L6 will shine very far. I mean, how far do you need to see _clearly_ anyway? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif


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## Gene (Nov 30, 2003)

*Re: L5, L6. The Hype Is Out. What\'s The Big Deal?*

Charlie,
That is a wonderful synopsis on what goes on here at CPF. I agree that we here on CPF are truly jaded. I am in awe of you modders and even more in awe of people like Dr. Matthews. Dr. John, who had the fortitude to risk a fortune to start a company like Surefire and offer a lifetime guarantee on truly innovative products, is to be applauded.

That's why I started this thread. If something is marginally better than exsisting products, why is the rush to buy them so great? It goes back to us being jaded and the desire to own the "latest and greatest" that transends logic. It also exhibits wonderful marketing strategy that only the internet and great forums like CPF can bring about.

I STILL want to know and will ALWAYS inquire before spending a couple of hundred dollars on something that is as insignificant as a flashlight and which is moderately better than the last model. I thank CPF for giving us the ability to ASK!


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## Dukester (Nov 30, 2003)

*Re: L5, L6. The Hype Is Out. What\'s The Big Deal?*

[ QUOTE ]
*Sean said:*
[ QUOTE ]
*Dukester said:*
I am let down thinking that the L6 would be every bit the king of throws compared to the L4 but it seems like it's sweet spot is somewhere between 15 & 20 yds which IMHO is not far at all. I say what's the point of a flashlight if one cannot see beyond 45 to 60' outside at night. The whole idea of flashlights is to extend ones night vision, right?


[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not sure what you mean. Are you talking about the L4 or L6? My L6 easily shines over 100'. I have some beams shots at ~80' on my website inside a gym with the lights out. In pitch dark outside with nothing but starlight the L6 will shine very far. I mean, how far do you need to see _clearly_ anyway? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif 

[/ QUOTE ]

*Sean - *First I'd like to commend you on the job you have done with your website and how I view as a tool to compare different flashlight's with their different beams. I do look at it often and you have done a great service to this Board...

With that said, 80' is only 26yds and it it peanuts to what I use my flashlight for. I live in a completely rural setting on an Island in Puget Sound. With the exception of the moon (when it is out) is the only ambient light I have to deal with. I live on 40 acres with 2/3rds of it being wooded (Douglas Firs, Alders). I have 4 large dogs that I run on property for excersise sometimes up to 3 times a night. On my property it is full of wildlife, most of it being friendly some not so friendly. A Coyote by itself or even a couple of coyotes my dogs would not be in any danger, they'd handle the situation. Sometimes Coyotes run in packs and that is when I worry about my dogs. Of course it have to be a large pack say 6 to 8 Coyotes. Coyotes usually will not attack a large dog unless their pack numbers favor it/odds are stacked with them, I say usually!

I need penetrating light that will cut through brush or see what is up at the clearing a 100yds away. I am sorry but with the L6 it just wouldn't cut it! I saw Richard's backyard patio shot of an L6 hitting a line of shrubbery and that was only at 50'. Though the beam was there it just was not penetrating like the TL-3 or the M3T was. It had more of a diffused/soft beam like pattern.

The L6 is I am sure a fine flashlight for some people for others they would not have a use for it.

My signature line says it all. Around sixety five percent of the flashlight's I own are throwers of at least 100yds.

This is when I kind of chuckle to myself when I see statements made saying that "Throw is over blown", not to me by a long shot /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif


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## **DONOTDELETE** (Nov 30, 2003)

*Re: L5, L6. The Hype Is Out. What\'s The Big Deal?*

I trust that everyone had a nice holiday.

If you were to examine the Surefire product line from the first day they made their flashlight available for purchase, it is clear that long throw was NOT what they were going for.

Long throw requires mirrrored reflectors that will produce the rings on the light product output projected spot. Surefire incandescent flashlights, with notable exception of a small run of mirrored reflectors (I have a sample from a 6Z and the prototype Beast's), have mostly touted the "smooth beam" that is the raison d'être of the stochastic (aka orange peel) reflector.

The L4, L5, & L6 all have the latter reflector that provides the smooth output, medium range spot for applications that still center around the LE and military requirements. Though I largely suspect that the L4 targets the civilian population, the latter and larger models available at this time are meant for the folks in uniform.

When looking for incandescent flashlights that "throw" beyond 50 yards in light-polluted enviroments, look beyond Surefire, LLC. Their products are best suited for close quarters illumination. 

LED flashlight technology does not currently offer a product that can out-throw incandescent lights in a mass produced format with the price category of the Streamlight Scorpion, Surefire G2, and Pelican M6.

A Surefire L4 was placed on my desk six weeks ago for eval. I have prelimary conclusions, but will wait to give a final write-up until after I thoroughly use it for at least 90 days. 

I just received e-mail indicating that a L5 and L6 will arrive shortly from former colleaques whom have made private purchases. I don't have much time these days to do more thorough evals, but have not, as yet, declined to accept the task. 

Those that request these evals of me use these products for a living. I cannot, in good conscience, decline their requests. I still have 4 2-CR123 powered, Xenon-bulbed incandescent lights on my desk waiting for my attention.


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## Dukester (Nov 30, 2003)

*Re: L5, L6. The Hype Is Out. What\'s The Big Deal?*

[ QUOTE ]
*__ said:*
I trust that everyone had a nice holiday.

If you were to examine the Surefire product line from the first day they made their flashlight available for purchase, it is clear that long throw was NOT what they were going for.

Long throw requires mirrrored reflectors that will produce the rings on the light product output projected spot. Surefire incandescent flashlights, with notable exception of a small run of mirrored reflectors (I have a sample from a 6Z and the prototype Beast's), have mostly touted the "smooth beam" that is the raison d'être of the stochastic (aka orange peel) reflector.

The L4, L5, & L6 all have the latter reflector that provides the smooth output, medium range spot for applications that still center around the LE and military requirements. Though I largely suspect that the L4 targets the civilian population, the latter and larger models available at this time are meant for the folks in uniform.

When looking for incandescent flashlights that "throw" beyond 50 yards in light-polluted enviroments, look beyond Surefire, LLC. Their products are best suited for close quarters illumination. 

LED flashlight technology does not currently offer a product that can out-throw incandescent lights in a mass produced format with the price category of the Streamlight Scorpion, Surefire G2, and Pelican M6.

A Surefire L4 was placed on my desk six weeks ago for eval. I have prelimary conclusions, but will wait to give a final write-up until after I thoroughly use it for at least 90 days. 

I just received e-mail indicating that a L5 and L6 will arrive shortly from former colleaques whom have made private purchases. I don't have much time these days to do more thorough evals, but have not, as yet, declined to accept the task. 

Those that request these evals of me use these products for a living. I cannot, in good conscience, decline their requests. I still have 4 2-CR123 powered, Xenon-bulbed incandescent lights on my desk waiting for my attention. 

[/ QUOTE ]

*Who is this masked evil Man!!! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ooo.gif I command you to come forth and be recognized!* /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif


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## Lux Luthor (Nov 30, 2003)

*Re: L5, L6. The Hype Is Out. What\'s The Big Deal?*

[ QUOTE ]
*Dukester said:*
...My signature line says it all. Around sixety five percent of the flashlight's I own are throwers of at least 100yds.

...This is when I kind of chuckle to myself when I see statements made saying that "Throw is over blown", not to me by a long shot /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif 

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, and if I read the term "useable light" one more time, I'm gonna puke. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif


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## Sean (Nov 30, 2003)

*Re: L5, L6. The Hype Is Out. What\'s The Big Deal?*

Dukester,
In your case I don't see a good reason to even consider an LED light for the type of uses you have described, except for backup. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif


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## Double_A (Nov 30, 2003)

*Re: L5, L6. The Hype Is Out. What\'s The Big Deal?*

Sean-

I think 90% of flashaholics don't need long throw. Dukester and a couple others have consistantly asked for throw. They are in a different crowd and can clearly articulate why they NEED it. 

That separates them from the rest of us for which that long throw is just a sort of mild viagra /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif I'd guess half the newbies who post here their first question is what is the smallest bad a$$ flashlight that will blind my co-worker and can light up a car 200 yards away. Heck I would love an E2e size flashlight that will throw a beam 200 yards, why? Cause it would be BAD! Don't ask me what I need it for though, I have no use for it. Dang now I'm got that M3 itch again, guess I better play with my M6 for a while and I'll feel better.

GregR /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif


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## Tombeis (Dec 1, 2003)

*Re: L5, L6. The Hype Is Out. What\'s The Big Deal?*

[ QUOTE ]
*Dukester said:*
[ QUOTE ]
*__ said:*
I trust that everyone had a nice holiday.

If you were to examine the Surefire product line from the first day they made their flashlight available for purchase, it is clear that long throw was NOT what they were going for.

Long throw requires mirrrored reflectors that will produce the rings on the light product output projected spot. Surefire incandescent flashlights, with notable exception of a small run of mirrored reflectors (I have a sample from a 6Z and the prototype Beast's), have mostly touted the "smooth beam" that is the raison d'être of the stochastic (aka orange peel) reflector.

The L4, L5, & L6 all have the latter reflector that provides the smooth output, medium range spot for applications that still center around the LE and military requirements. Though I largely suspect that the L4 targets the civilian population, the latter and larger models available at this time are meant for the folks in uniform.

When looking for incandescent flashlights that "throw" beyond 50 yards in light-polluted enviroments, look beyond Surefire, LLC. Their products are best suited for close quarters illumination. 

LED flashlight technology does not currently offer a product that can out-throw incandescent lights in a mass produced format with the price category of the Streamlight Scorpion, Surefire G2, and Pelican M6.

A Surefire L4 was placed on my desk six weeks ago for eval. I have prelimary conclusions, but will wait to give a final write-up until after I thoroughly use it for at least 90 days. 

I just received e-mail indicating that a L5 and L6 will arrive shortly from former colleaques whom have made private purchases. I don't have much time these days to do more thorough evals, but have not, as yet, declined to accept the task. 

Those that request these evals of me use these products for a living. I cannot, in good conscience, decline their requests. I still have 4 2-CR123 powered, Xenon-bulbed incandescent lights on my desk waiting for my attention. 

[/ QUOTE ]

*Who is this masked evil Man!!! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ooo.gif I command you to come forth and be recognized!* /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif 

[/ QUOTE ]

Flashlight rookies. Don't you just love 'em!


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## Blikbok (Dec 1, 2003)

*Re: L5, L6. The Hype Is Out. What\'s The Big Deal?*

Dukester definately has a special need. I'd be grateful it can be met with a hand-held light. However, I find the turbo-heads too needle-like in their beam to be useful at extreme range. In fact, the wider beam of the LED is so much more useful to me than most incansdescents, at any range.


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## milkyspit (Dec 1, 2003)

*Re: L5, L6. The Hype Is Out. What\'s The Big Deal?*

*Blikbok*, I'd agree with you entirely. Seems like the pendulum swings even among flashaholics. First (pre-flashaholic) I upgraded my lights to be longer and longer throw, associating that with a "better" light, and was left with a bunch of needle-thin beams which really were quite useless for the closer illumination I needed 80% of the time. Then I "saw the light," so to speak /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/yellowlaugh.gif, and moved toward LED lights. They produced beautiful artifact-free swaths of light perfect for most of my needs, but didn't throw very far at all. Lately it seems like the LED crowd on CPF is in an arms race for more "powerful" LED lights, measured by how far they throw. Things like narrow-angle Fraen optics are all the rage. Champions in this game command top dollar on B/S/T as well as the bulk of the LED mindshare on the forum. But sadly, they're moving to precisely the place from which LED lights helped me escape to begin with. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon15.gif

My favorite walking light for night hikes through the woods is a _low dome_, for cripes sakes! I guess excellent utilitarian performers are decidedly non-sexy. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon23.gif I use my L4 quite a bit, too, though I wish it didn't get so hot in continuous operation. The L5 and L6 to me have near-perfect beams, with enough throw for most needs (unlike the L4) and a smooth dropoff from hotspot to a generous amount of spill. Very nice.

In fact, one of the most underrated aspects of a flashlight is the smoothness of the falloff from hotspot to spill. A light with truly massive amounts of spill does little good if the hotspot is so searing bright that it keeps the eyes from seeing the dimmer spill light. The human eye just can't adjust to see both at once, so it adjusts for the bright center portion and the spill light is essentially lost. One thing Surefire has done so well with their incandescents has been to offer a smoother falloff from the hotspot, where the eye can readily see most of the spill light as well. Throw is only half of the story; any long throw light that can also offer that smooth falloff to the sides is a winner in my book!


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## milkyspit (Dec 1, 2003)

*Re: L5, L6. The Hype Is Out. What\'s The Big Deal?*

[ QUOTE ]
*Gene said:*
If something is marginally better than exsisting products, why is the rush to buy them so great?


[/ QUOTE ]

*Gene*, in an emerging technology like LED flashlights, there's some magical point at which the technology becomes "good enough." Until reaching that point, people rush to get the latest & greatest because frankly, *nothing* to date has been "good enough." At some point the technology crosses the line, and the impetus to stay on that leading edge loses its urgency, as there are several "good enough" choices out there. This happened with PC microprocessor performance from inception of the original IBM PC through roughly the 1GHz barrier for clock speed, with Pentium III, Pentium 4, and Athlon. In the most recent few years the perceived need to upgrade with each new chip has largely disappeared, because even the "old" chips continue to offer "good enough" performance. The same will happen with LED flashlights, I suspect, but we're not there yet.

Hence the enthusiasm for the L5 and L6, and no doubt for the L7, L8, and beyond.


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## Dukester (Dec 1, 2003)

*Re: L5, L6. The Hype Is Out. What\'s The Big Deal?*

My guess is that most of the folks probably at least 2/3rds (just guessing) live in a urban setting either in a City/Town or Suburbia?

I feel fortunate to live out in the country shielded by ambient light and I get the true effect of my Throwers. I have to laugh that someone I recently read that to define useful throw is a unit of measure fc =1. So with that equation they put the UltraStinger at 125'. Lady's and Gent's that is only 41 yds and I strongly beg to differ, strongly.... I am not disagreeing with the formula or the result of the formula but I am disagreeing with the term useful. What is useful to me may not be to you or vice a versa. If I can see my dogs roaming at 200yds, that is one helluva useful beam! All the test I see on this forum may be useful to some but not all. A lot of light's put out good beams at 25'. What does that same beam look like at 150yds? Do you see where I am getting at? Even my little Streamlight Stinger HP XT can be focused down to see my dogs out at 150yds, easily. But, I understand that most folks on this board do not have the need for throw like I do. As a matter of fact most of you are happy with a beam of light that extends your night vision maybe 20'. Who knows, if I ever move back into an Urban Setting again you will see a lot (not all) but a lot of my Throwers advertised in the B/S/T Thread becauase my needs will have changed.

I am not slamming SureFire because when all this hype began several weeks ago I made a comment stating that I thought this would be my first SureFire. What can I say, I was a bit disappointed personally, that is just me though!

If I were a Rancher/Farmer or just lived out in the woods by myself inwhich I do and heard a loud noise on my property at 3AM. Beside having my 12gauge in hand the L6 would not be my go to light, that's for sure.

On the flip side when I walk to the wash house that is about 100yds (w/o) dogs in tow through a path in the woods I either bring my MiniMag AA (just enough light so I don't trip over the tree roots) or I bring my SL TT-3C and run it on the 3 LED's which is more than sufficient.

You are right, I seem to be the minority on this board. It is too bad that most of you folks could not experience the total darkness w/o ambient light (New Moon) or street lights etc and perform your own personal test to really see what your lights are capable of, you'd be amazed!

Just my own personal thougths...


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## McGizmo (Dec 1, 2003)

*Re: L5, L6. The Hype Is Out. What\'s The Big Deal?*

Milkyspit,

Good points and well stated. If the tool is to be used for illumination, the criteria may be completely different than a tool entered in a lux contest. Due to the ever-changing and breaking technology of LED's, I think many of us are looking for different tools and accessing how they fit our needs and special requirements. I think some of us on the mod side are also trying to learn how we can control the light available to us. At any given level of adjustment of the eye to ambient or supplied light, the eyes are most adept if they are receiving similar levels of light regardless of distance to target. In other words, ideally we would have the same level of illumination at our feet as we would returning from a target 150' away. If we could hang a powerful flood light from a sky hook and suspend it in a central spot above the entire area of interest, we'd be in good shape.

If we are holding the source of light, the physics of illumination becomes much more difficult. I find myself often going to what I have learned from photography and drawing analogies. Key in successful photography is the mastering of the depth of field and using various lenses and settings to control depth of field. In illumination with portable devices, ideally we would direct the proper amount of light required both near and far so that the range of properly illuminated objects met with our intent. I think of it as an illuminated depth of field. I understand that a tactical application may have completely different requirements from a walk in the woods. A quick example would be that in a tactical situation, you might want to just illuminate the bad guy standing next to a tree at 100' and you wouldn't want your light to illuminate your partner who is off angle at 75' and sneaking up on him. In the same surroundings when you are walking your dog, you would want to see not only your dog lifting his leg on the same tree but also the fallen stump, deep pit and pile of manure that all lie between you and your dog.

In the non-tactical example above, a useful beam would be one that had much higher intensity of light output on axis with diminishing output the further off axis the light is projected. With such a beam, you could target your dog and have illumination levels between you and he(she) that would be in a range as to be relatively constant and visible. Your depth of field would be from a few feet in front of you out to the dog and tree. In reality, I think many of the reflectored lights which provide both a spot and flood from spill can reasonably work in such an example. The textured reflectors as used by the SF lights aid in blending the light from hot center to less intense off axis.

More on topic, I think both the L5 and L6 provide a good blend of beam that is suitable for a deep depth of field.

I consider a pencil beam with no off axis light to be a generally limited but effective beam for very specific applications; namely tactical as well as "fog cutting". They provide a flat depth of field. 

The major break through for most of us will come when we can vary the level of luminous output from the source itself. I find that for most of my needs, a 1W or the new Luxeon III is all the light I need or want. The 5W is great at some distance but too intense for tasks close at hand which are my primary illumination needs. When I can take a 5W and run it typically at 1W, I will be a happy camper. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif


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## brightnorm (Dec 1, 2003)

*Re: L5, L6. The Hype Is Out. What\'s The Big Deal?*

I share our excitement about the rapid evolution of LED technology and work around limitations in the current state of the art. For long throw in a small package you still need incandescent which is why I EDC the TL-2 Xenon along with my LSH-P and L4. 

Brightnorm


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## Kiessling (Dec 1, 2003)

*Re: L5, L6. The Hype Is Out. What\'s The Big Deal?*

Some very good and valuable thoughts in this thread, thank you gentlemen!

I agree 100% with milky and Don, and living in town a tend to like smaller lights with a good sidespill that is able to overpower the weak ambient light everywhere AND is not too much overkill in a totally dark house AND is reasonably small to carry it in a small pocket.
As a consequence, a Firefly or a McLux 2x123 are the ticket to go.

Out in the dark and threatening nature the beam of a 35W HID with a 4° reflector is much more comforting than a little Firefly though ... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

bernhard


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## Deanster (Dec 1, 2003)

*Re: L5, L6. The Hype Is Out. What\'s The Big Deal?*

Different tools are better for different uses! Exciting film at 11 o'clock!

I think we'd all like to own one 'perfect light' that can either light up a treeline 1/2 mile away like the noon sun, pick out a single owl in that treeline, provide perfect tactical light, cast a smooth 100 lumen beam at 50', and provide just barely enough light to find our way around the bedroom without waking our spouse, preferably all in a 2x123 package with 5+ hours of regulated runtime. 

Until ARC or Surefire gets around to building one of these, we'll have different needs, and use different lights to fulfill those needs. I really like talking about choosing a light for the right task, but when the discussion turns to 'nobody really needs throw' or 'lights with no throw are useless', it seems a bit silly. 

Different needs, different tools. I carry an Arc LSL-P for nice even light close-in, and a Pelican Stealthlite in my car for picking out details at 100 yards. Each one provides exactly the right 'useful light' for that purpose. Neither does any good for the job of the other.


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## kakster (Dec 1, 2003)

*Re: L5, L6. The Hype Is Out. What\'s The Big Deal?*

We'd all only need one flashlight. Wheres the fun in that? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/naughty.gif


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## Hoghead (Dec 1, 2003)

*Re: L5, L6. The Hype Is Out. What\'s The Big Deal?*

Well, we could get them in different colors /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hahaha.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rant.gif


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## Kiessling (Dec 1, 2003)

*Re: L5, L6. The Hype Is Out. What\'s The Big Deal?*

... or it would be so expensive that we could not get it at all, and this place would be "candlepowerdroolings.com".
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif


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## Bill.H (Dec 1, 2003)

*Re: L5, L6. The Hype Is Out. What\'s The Big Deal?*

[ QUOTE ]
*Darell said:*
[ QUOTE ]
*Bill.H said:*
I suspect the Arc LS4/5 will be the real "superlights". 

[/ QUOTE ]
I'd hesitate before comparing a 9V, 5W light (L6) with a 3V, 1W light (LS4). It isn't a fair fight. Though I'm not really sure what is meant by "superlight." 

[/ QUOTE ]

Hmmm, I should have explained that better. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif

How's this? Define superlight as "Gee Whiz WOW I GOTTA have that!!!"
As much as I hate to admit it, if you define it as super-bright, then LEDs aren't super - _yet_.


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## rlhess (Dec 1, 2003)

*Re: L5, L6. The Hype Is Out. What\'s The Big Deal?*

[ QUOTE ]
*Dukester said:*
My guess is that most of the folks probably at least 2/3rds (just guessing) live in a urban setting either in a City/Town or Suburbia?

I feel fortunate to live out in the country shielded by ambient light and I get the true effect of my Throwers. I have to laugh that someone I recently read that to define useful throw is a unit of measure fc =1. So with that equation they put the UltraStinger at 125'. Lady's and Gent's that is only 41 yds and I strongly beg to differ, strongly.... I am not disagreeing with the formula or the result of the formula but I am disagreeing with the term useful. 

...snip...

Just my own personal thougths... 

[/ QUOTE ]

Dukester...

Guilty as charged. My goal is coming up with a comparison that is a useful and standardized benchmark.

Yes, my proposed definition of throw was to use 1fc and yes, that would limit the spec'd throw of an Ultrastinger or SRTH Turbo head to 125 feet. 

Do you feel that the light of full moon is a better example? If so, then that is 0.01 fc, or 10x the throw. That would put the US and the SRTH at a 1250 foot throw.

I do know the US and the SRTH throw more than 125 feet. I was looking for a useful, understandable benchmark.

It looks as if Doug (quickbeams) at flashlightreviews.com may have begun adopting 1 lux as the cutoff which provides distances approx 3x as far, giving the US and the SRTH ~400 foot throws.

We could agree to adopt any or all of these as long as they were simply understood.

There is no substitute for USING a light under the intended circumstances. 

Interesting discussion.

Cheers,

Richard


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## Dukester (Dec 1, 2003)

*Re: L5, L6. The Hype Is Out. What\'s The Big Deal?*

[ QUOTE ]
*rlhess said:*
[ QUOTE ]
*Dukester said:*
My guess is that most of the folks probably at least 2/3rds (just guessing) live in a urban setting either in a City/Town or Suburbia?

I feel fortunate to live out in the country shielded by ambient light and I get the true effect of my Throwers. I have to laugh that someone I recently read that to define useful throw is a unit of measure fc =1. So with that equation they put the UltraStinger at 125'. Lady's and Gent's that is only 41 yds and I strongly beg to differ, strongly.... I am not disagreeing with the formula or the result of the formula but I am disagreeing with the term useful. 

...snip...

Just my own personal thougths... 

[/ QUOTE ]

Dukester...

Guilty as charged. My goal is coming up with a comparison that is a useful and standardized benchmark.

Yes, my proposed definition of throw was to use 1fc and yes, that would limit the spec'd throw of an Ultrastinger or SRTH Turbo head to 125 feet. 

Do you feel that the light of full moon is a better example? If so, then that is 0.01 fc, or 10x the throw. That would put the US and the SRTH at a 1250 foot throw.

I do know the US and the SRTH throw more than 125 feet. I was looking for a useful, understandable benchmark.

It looks as if Doug (quickbeams) at flashlightreviews.com may have begun adopting 1 lux as the cutoff which provides distances approx 3x as far, giving the US and the SRTH ~400 foot throws.

We could agree to adopt any or all of these as long as they were simply understood.

There is no substitute for USING a light under the intended circumstances. 

Interesting discussion.

Cheers,

Richard 

[/ QUOTE ]

Richard, I am hoping you did not take offense to my comment. I did not know who posted the foot candle post I do remember reading it. I do know it was meant to set a standard which could prove useful to get a gauge of brightness to a specific torch. Even my little Streamlight Stinger HP XT I can easily see beam out to 100 - 150yds. I guess from now on I will keep my comments to myself. Seems like I opened up a can of something which I surely did not mean to do...


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## brightnorm (Dec 1, 2003)

*Re: L5, L6. The Hype Is Out. What\'s The Big Deal?*

[ QUOTE ]
*Dukester said:*
... I guess from now on I will keep my comments to myself. Seems like I opened up a can of something which I surely did not mean to do... 

[/ QUOTE ]

Dukester, Why?

This has been a perfectly civil discussion with different views respectfully stated. I see no evidence of hostile intent and in fact have enjoyed the different views expressed. Please keep posting.

Brightnorm


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## rlhess (Dec 1, 2003)

*Re: L5, L6. The Hype Is Out. What\'s The Big Deal?*

Dukester,

I welcomed you input (I thought) because it is good to know what the limits others consider for "throw"

How far do you think an UltraStinger on tight beam throws in your conditions?

Perhaps we need a highway/city driving type of benchmark <smile> using 1fc in the city and what for the country?

We can back-calculate an approx number if you tell me how far the US throws. This would be very useful in better understanding lights and the applications across a wide variety of users.

Both Brightnorm and I are city/suburban dwellers (he more city than I) and having someone from waaay out in the country where it is really dark as part of this round table is fascinating.

Oh, and if the 12 ga is with you when you hear a noise, remind me to call ahead <big grin>.

Cheers,

Richard


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## 1581zebra (Dec 1, 2003)

*Re: L5, L6. The Hype Is Out. What\'s The Big Deal?*

I've enjoyed the discussions on throw as well, but I think we are all going to see different results. For instance, I've been carrying a g2/p61 lately, and I can clearly see 125-130 yds with it in the light pollution of Raleigh, NC. why? Because I was blessed with great eyes. I hope the l5 comes close to a p60 for me. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif


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## Double_A (Dec 1, 2003)

*Re: L5, L6. The Hype Is Out. What\'s The Big Deal?*

I own more than one flashlight (duh!) for the exact reasons people have articulated here. Different tools for different tasks. I used to get hell from my ex about my flashlights until I equated multiple lights with kitchen knives doing different tasks, ah ok was her reply.

Many people are happy with an ARC-AAA. I usually carry that, plus an LSH-P. When night comes I add to those two an E2e or a 9P depending on the circumstances. That way I have low level, long lasting light, a medium intensity, moderate lasting light and an incandescent light for throw.

Some lights I rarely use. My SF M6 is around three maybe four years old and still on it's first or maybe second set of batteries. In reality it's a waste, but be danged if I'm gonna sell it. 

For "real" throw, I don't have a thing and have no use for it. The closest I my get is an M3 I've been looking at.

At this point the ideal light for me will be one of ARC's L4 or L5 adjustable output lights, or if Surefire beats ARC to it. At that point I can see myself stopping and aquiring no more lights. 

GregR


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## milkyspit (Dec 1, 2003)

*Re: L5, L6. The Hype Is Out. What\'s The Big Deal?*

*rlhess*, my apologies if I'm just missing your point entirely. If so, no doubt the fault is all mine. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon15.gif That said, IMHO lux itself is a useful indicator of throw, in that it accurately measures the intensity of the beam's hotspot, or put a different way, the "punch" of the beam. What it doesn't measure is what all this means out in the wild, so to speak, and in fact it's virtually impossible to come up with an accurate translation from lux to throw distance that covers all our distinct nighttime environments. There are various reasons for this, but what comes to mind quickly are first the level of ambient light present (the more ambient light, the less throw a light will seem to have because it needs to "rise above" ambient in order to be seen), and second the fact that our eyes don't perceive light in linear fashion. The latter means a light with twice the intensity won't necessarily seem to throw twice as far. Even the air itself plays a role in throw, as anyone who attended NJ PhotonFests 1 & 2 at my home this autumn can attest. Across the road from me is a field I like to call "the black hole" because the air tends to swallow beams of light. I think this is due to moisture rising from the field after dark causing the beams to diffract and lose coherence.

That said, here's one real world example I can offer which might give you a point of reference. A few months ago I did a test of my Space Needle II vs. my MR-X flashlights. The Space Needle II was putting out perhaps 7500 lux, and the MR-X put out 10,000 lux. I went out front after dark, where the road is on a straightaway, and one at a time shone the lights along the reflective paint at the side. This gave me sort of a "thermometer bar" in the distance that I could use to gauge throw, with the longer bar clearly showing the longer throw. MR-X did of course outthrow SNII, but only by (very roughly!) 100 meters vs. 90 meters. So the additional 2500 lux resulted in an extra 10 meters.

Getting more on topic for this thread, I did have the good fortune to take borrowed L5 *and* L6 with me on a walk into the quarry behind my house one night. My assessment was that neither one was what I'd call truly long throw; SNII and MR-X both threw further, as did several incandescents. Also, I did notice that L5 and L6 are both very heavy for their size, which is nice for heatsinking but not so nice for carrying purposes. However, they gave absolutely beautiful beams with maybe half the flood of an L4 plus the throw that the L4 lacks. Falloff in intensity from hotspot to spill was very smooth, enabling the eyes to see both easily. No squinting with these lights! If a prospective buyer understands these lights' limitations and can live with them, he/she will be very happy with an L5 or an L6.

Lastly, it's worth noting that the L6 did throw farther than the L5, but IMHO not enough farther to justify the increased cost. I'd personally buy the L5 out of these two, and might actually buy the L5 in place of an L4 unless I knew for sure that I would *never* need the additional throw.

Hope this helps.


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## Alan Hsu (Dec 1, 2003)

*Re: L5, L6. The Hype Is Out. What\'s The Big Deal?*

Maybe someone should try turbocharing the L5/L6, say doubling the current?


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## rlhess (Dec 1, 2003)

*Re: L5, L6. The Hype Is Out. What\'s The Big Deal?*

Scott,

I've been thinking we should change this to a new thread.

It was a suggestion as there are LOTS of throw claims.

Yes, Candela (lux @ 1m, fc @ 1 ft) is a good measure of throw, but for people not yet comfortable talking in candela (that is really the proper term, as lux requires a distance and it's often not used that way) finding a way to translate the candela into distance is useful.

Also the square ratio of candela is also interesting as it's not immediately intuitive that a 4000 cd light will throw twice as far as a 1000 cd light.

I fear I'm making something more complex in the hope of simplifying it--that was my original goal.

Cheers,

Richard


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## Dukester (Dec 2, 2003)

*Re: L5, L6. The Hype Is Out. What\'s The Big Deal?*

I guess "Useful Throw" would be more appropriate. Tonight I took my Stinger HP XT out to the Range, shot it at the 200yd berm and I was 135 - 140yds and to me that was on the fringe of a useful beam. I did not take my UltraStinger out cause it still was on the charger however tonight when I run the dogs the last time of the evening the UltraStinger will be ready to go. Keep in mind tonight is not the best ideal conditions since it is misting outside therefore refracting the Beam a bit but I am pretty satisfied with the 140yd "Useable Throw" that I claim. At this range I can detect movement, put it that way.

Dave


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## rlhess (Dec 2, 2003)

*Re: L5, L6. The Hype Is Out. What\'s The Big Deal?*

Dave,

That is really good input. I'll be really curious about the Ultra Stinger.

What we know is that if the Stinger HP XT is about 10,000 cd (similar to the SL TL-3) then you're seeing useful throw to 0.05 fc. That is still 5x full moon brightness and, come to think of it, the full moon is not all that dim, either.

So, perhaps the 0.1fc or 0.05fc threshold would be useful.

The reason I'm interested in this is that I think people get overwhelmed by comparing candela ratings and forget about the inverse square law.

Cheers,

Richard


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## Lux Luthor (Dec 2, 2003)

*Re: L5, L6. The Hype Is Out. What\'s The Big Deal?*

Yes, perhaps this would be a good time to open up a discussion of the terminology being used on CPF, and come up with some better language. As pointed out, the term "useable light" is specific to a particular task, but is being used on this forum all too frequently to mean "flood beam".

We often read statements such as "well, 90% of the time I need a flood beam", and that may very well be true, and is probably true in my case as well. But then I sit there thinking "what do I do that other 10% of time? Sit there with only a flood light wishing I had a true long throw torch?".

Then there are the "if you could only have one light" threads that pop up every few days from newbies. I don't bother to read them anymore, but I sit there thinking "why do I only get one"? Is it because I'm too poor, or is it supposed to be some sort of theoretical exercise in which I imagine that there's a light that will throw 100 yds., give me a smooth flood beam at 20 ft., preserve my night vision, have long runtime, and fit comfortably in my front pocket?

One of the first things I figured out when I joined CPF is that there is no such light, and if there ever is, it will be a long time coming down the pike. That is why I generally use a 3 light system, since the majority of tasks can be divided into 3 main categories:

1) Dim light, possibly keychain size. With you all the time.

2) Medium range flood.

3) Long throw.

Of course there are variations on this, and everyone's different, and I'm not trying to lock anyone in a box (Oh, and then there's the headlamp issue, and just how do I work that in, and just what light levels/profiles do I really need on my head? And one other thing: the night vision preservation issue - dim red/green, whatever, and how does that fit in, and where do I put it?).

So what I'm driving at is that "useable" should mean just that. That one has a light which is useable for whatever task he is using it for. If you've found such a light, then congratulations, and more power to you! But please don't put everyone else's lighting needs in your own box, and say that a true long throw torch is not "useable", when for me and many other people, it most certainly is!


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## Dukester (Dec 2, 2003)

*Re: L5, L6. The Hype Is Out. What\'s The Big Deal?*

[ QUOTE ]
*rlhess said:*
Dave,

That is really good input. I'll be really curious about the Ultra Stinger.

What we know is that if the Stinger HP XT is about 10,000 cd (similar to the SL TL-3) then you're seeing useful throw to 0.05 fc. That is still 5x full moon brightness and, come to think of it, the full moon is not all that dim, either.

So, perhaps the 0.1fc or 0.05fc threshold would be useful.

The reason I'm interested in this is that I think people get overwhelmed by comparing candela ratings and forget about the inverse square law.

Cheers,

Richard 

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry to disappoint you but I had the UltraStinger out with me just a bit ago with the dogs and it was misting quite heavy but lightly if that makes since, coming down like snow, but it is not snow. This type of weather is prevelent this time of year in Puget Sound, perhaps tomorrow night might be more favorable.

While you compare the Stinger HP XT to the TL-3 the Stinger can be focused down considerably more than the TL-3. I can focus the hotspot down to say 5' across at say 140yds, there is no way you could do that with the TL-3.

As far as definning "useful throw", Lux Luther made a sound statement, basically whatever is deemed useful by the end user. Maybe physics cannot be applied in this case. Isn't Physics an exact science? There is no way that I am seeing 5x's the full moon at 140yds, I tell you that right off the bat! Probably at that distance it would be safe to say 2 or maybe 2 1/2 times a full moon but by no means 5x's! Though it may not seem bright to you but you have to remember there is virtually no ambient light so that hotspot that is compared to a double full moon sticks out like a sore thumb if there is no other light around. Your useful throw will be a lot different from suburbia to rural.

Dave


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## rlhess (Dec 2, 2003)

*Re: L5, L6. The Hype Is Out. What\'s The Big Deal?*

Lest I

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dedhorse.gif

I will cease and desist.

I was trying to bring some idea of standardized clarity to reports so people can compare.

Did you see the beamshots done with the Mag Solitaire?

Cheers,

Richard


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## brightnorm (Dec 2, 2003)

*Re: L5, L6. The Hype Is Out. What\'s The Big Deal?*

[ QUOTE ]
*Double_A said:*

My SF M6 is around three maybe four years old and still on it's first or maybe second set of batteries...For "real" throw, I don't have a thing and have no use for it. The closest I my get is an M3 I've been looking at.
...

[/ QUOTE ]

Greg,

Some day if a long throw moment should strike your imagination, load fresh batteries and HOLA into your M6 and shine it into the dark distance. I think you'll be pleasantly surprised.

Brightnorm


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## Dukester (Dec 2, 2003)

*Re: L5, L6. The Hype Is Out. What\'s The Big Deal?*

[ QUOTE ]
*rlhess said:*
Lest I

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dedhorse.gif

I will cease and desist.

I was trying to bring some idea of standardized clarity to reports so people can compare.

Did you see the beamshots done with the Mag Solitaire?

Cheers,

Richard 

[/ QUOTE ]

Yep, I sure did. Thought it was pretty interesting how that cheap Solitare could put out such a beam as it did. My hats off to the author of that thread for using the technique he chose to use to bring his point across.

Dave


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## Eppe's Corner (Dec 2, 2003)

*Re: L5, L6. The Hype Is Out. What\'s The Big Deal?*

[content removed by Admin (Size15s) because it is way off topic for this thread]


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## Size15's (Dec 2, 2003)

*Re: L5, L6. The Hype Is Out. What\'s The Big Deal?*

Eppe's Corner,

If you would like the content of your post back please email me or any other Admin/Moderator - the content is located in the Admin Forum and you are welcome to post it in a more suitable thread.

Respectfully,

Al


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## Dukester (Dec 2, 2003)

*Re: L5, L6. The Hype Is Out. What\'s The Big Deal?*

*Richard - Are you out there????* After sleeping on this and conferring with *SilverFox* via PM this whole term "Useable Throw" has so many flaws and contridictions in it we could go on forever. For example, this morning I took my ole UltraStinger out with me and the dogs, the weather was favorable. I would have to say that while on the range 200yds is at the threshold of "Useful Beam" for my application. Look at the photo to the left of my post with the photo of my dogs. Note the color of the fur, red and grey. Well, could you imagine looking at the colors in the dead of night at 200 yds away, the would most certainly blend in with the dirt background. At 200 yds if my dogs were all standing still I would certainly have to look over & study the view closely to be able to pick them out. If the dogs are moving it is a lot easier. Because of the dogs size I can detect their movement at that distance. 

Now, using the same UltraStinger and going to a different area like a wide open field or the county blacktop minus the reflectors the "Useful Throw" is enhanced just by the different surroundings not by the beam in itself.

So, your formula can still be worth it's weight in gold. It could still be helpful in determining the strength of a beam while comparing against other flashlights. Just like *BrightNorm* did with his Output vs Overall Throw Table. These are both useful tools. The only problem I have about your FootCandela Formula used to gauge Throw with is if I did not already own an UltraStinger I would have passed over the UltraStinger as a light to fill my Throw Needs based on your 125' benchmark. Does this make sense?

Boy is this getting complicated /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/faint.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/faint.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/faint.gif


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## rlhess (Dec 2, 2003)

*Re: L5, L6. The Hype Is Out. What\'s The Big Deal?*

I think Quickbeam's comparison of peak output to total output is very useful. I think Brightnorm publishes a list of manufacturer-provided information plus his long throw tests in an urban environment.

I was trying to look at the numbers another way.

Perhaps if we look at throw for equivalent lighting:

Almost able to read (1fc)
See fairly well with contrast (0.1fc)
Mimics the light of a full moon on the target (0.01fc)

and these end up with
1x
3x
10x 
the distance

I don't know, yes what I've said could mislead you, but, as with any metric, it needs to be taken in comparison, not an absolute sense.

For example, if I said the throw of the L4 was 25 feet and the Utrastinger was 125 feet for the same level of illumination, then that would be more useful than if out of the blue I said "125 feet for the UltraStinger"

There have been throw numbers published already--I didn't invent them--but their reference seems to be all over the place. My goal is to have numbers that state their references and can be compared across multiple reviewers (and hopefully even manufacturers).

Cheers,

Richard


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## Likebright (Dec 2, 2003)

*Re: L5, L6. The Hype Is Out. What\'s The Big Deal?*

Fascinating thread guys.
It may have changed my way of looking at my lights.
To my way of looking with my lights. 
Hmmmmmm /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thinking.gif
Keep it up 
Mike


----------

