# My dead 18V Milwaukee batteries.



## Owen (Jan 29, 2007)

I have three Milwaukee 18V 2.4Ah batteries that I've rotated, usually keeping two fully charged, for the last 3 1/2 years. Two came with a drill, one with a cordless Sawzall.
I had been using my drill, swapped batteries, and put the one I'd been using on charge. About a month went by, and I went to use the drill again-dead battery. Took the one off the charger-dead also. Luckily the third battery was in a toolbag in my basement, and worked fine.
So I've got two dead batteries, and they've been sitting here for a couple of months 'til I remembered them. The day I discovered they weren't working, both were reading a little over 1V on my MM. Now one is reading 1.0, and the other 0.0. The charger light does not come on when I try to charge them(though it originally did on the dead one that I'd put on the charger).
My tools have only seen heavy use that really depleted the batteries a couple of times(I use a corded Super Sawzall for real work), and that is very rare. 90% of their use goes to my drill as a glorified screwdriver.
They're not very old, not heavily used. I expected many more years of service from these >$100 retail batteries. 
So...what do you think killed my batteries? 
I don't suppose there's any way to revive a dead NiCad battery  



Aha...I just found out there's an upgrade kit with a charger and 2 18V Li-ion batts for a couple hundred bucks. I'm tempted to wait until the last battery goes dead and get that instead of replacing the NiCads.


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## MrAl (Jan 29, 2007)

Hi there,

You can replace them yourself but it still ends up costing.
I did my 9.6v pack and it ended up costing me 40 dollars.
That's more than my car battery cost!

Sometimes you get lucky and only one or two cells are bad,
but that doesnt mean the others will last that much longer
anyway.


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## Owen (Jan 29, 2007)

Thanks, I had not thought of taking them apart, and don't know how they're constructed. I'm just a few Torx screws away from knowing, but it will have to wait 'til tomorrow. 
Maybe I could get one good battery out of two dead ones?


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## Robstorch (Jan 29, 2007)

My 12 volt XR Dewalt batteries are at least 7+ years old, one is still going strong,
the other I had rebuilt for $35 at Batteries Plus and its still fine. Maybe if possible
dont let yours get so run down before charging?


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## bill_n_opus (Jan 29, 2007)

I've been researching this for awhile. I've also talked to bob_ninja about this and he posted a thread re: rebuilding battery packs. 

From what I gather, the main reason why many battery packs get toasted is because of:

1 - "dumb" chargers that tend to fry or overcook your batteries.
2 - a bad cell or two or three that cause overall battery pack failure. 

The fix for these are:

- get a "smart" charging device that will not cook your batteries but treat them right. That's an expense in itself.

- replace the bad cells with good ones. You can order sub-C cells online for various prices depending on capacity and voltage and size. However, if you have an older battery it may not be so easy to do so. 

- send your batteries to get rebuilt which can be a good way to go unless you really like doing the soldering thing and have battery packs that are relatively easy to rebuild. Some packs are technically tough as they are particular stuffed and/or glued around to keep the pack from shaking, making noise etc.

- build it yourself from the ground up. I have some 15.6V craftsman batteries that i'd like to do someday. The pack came apart nicely and it doesn't seem like a particularly difficult job. I have no soldering skills nor equipment but my neighbor does and he said I can borrow them anytime. The advantages is that you can select the type and quality of battery as well as increase in capacity and if done right can be a real nice battery. 

- there are companies that will rebuild batteries. Online and retail. You may have a tech school near you that may rebuild batteries for "cheap" as a learning tool for students doing soldering, electrical etc. Check around.


Good luck.


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## diesel_dad (Jan 29, 2007)

Why bother? You can buy the new V18 Li-Ion Battery pack and charger from Milwaukee and use it with all the old tools. As soon as I can get them in Canada, I'll be supplementing my NiMh packs with the new ones.

I did have a similar experience with one of my packs. I let it rest for a couple of days, put it back on the charger and it was fine. Any chance the pack got shorted out? Is there a fuse?

If you want to fix the old ones -- check with Milwaukee. As I recall some tool makers have re-furb programs.

I am also keeping an eye out for the TerraLux ToolStar18 LED replacement for the Milwaukee bulb in the work light.


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## ken2400 (Jan 29, 2007)

The first question is do you readly need cordless? Lets face it if you pull then thing out two or three times a year then why burn up more $$$ for the little time you are saving with cordless. I have a fleet of extention cords and they all work fine. If not then just get a cheap plug in drill and be done with it. If you do need cordless then rebuild or look on line for a replacement pack.

Oh ya I have like two 12V Craftsman cordless drill. Both bought for $20 each at garage sales. I left the charger pluged and burned up the transformer on the first one so I bought a second. Don't know why I bought the first?

Last idea Big lots and Harbor Freight sell good cheap units for light duty work.

Good luck!



diesel_dad said:


> Why bother? You can buy the new V18 Li-Ion Battery pack and charger from Milwaukee and use it with all the old tools. As soon as I can get them in Canada, I'll be supplementing my NiMh packs with the new ones.
> 
> I did have a similar experience with one of my packs. I let it rest for a couple of days, put it back on the charger and it was fine. Any chance the pack got shorted out? Is there a fuse?
> 
> ...


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## Theatre Booth Guy (Jan 29, 2007)

Too bad the "new Milwaukee" took over. . . . They used to have a great tool forum there. The Milwaukee charger does not charge packs once the voltage drops too low. There was a long thread about jumpering from a good and charged battery pack to the pack with low or no voltage to bring the voltage up a bit on the discharged pack. The charger is then supposed to recognize and properly charge the discharged pack.
Good Luck!


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## Cydonia (Jan 29, 2007)

Interesting and worrisome at the same time. I’ve got two 18v packs (Bosch brand) , 2.4ah, comprised of 15 Sanyo Sub C (made in Japan). Charger takes 1 hour, battery pack just a bit warm to the touch after full charge from being depleted. Auto shut off and detection of battery condition. I hope this is a good safe charger that will prolong the life of the batteries to the max… right? 

The other battery pack, not needed, unused, stored in case uncharged for over a year measures 16 volts still.

As a separate anecdotal aside, I’ve an old Sears Craftsman 3.6volt screwdriver, 15 years old now, on original battery pack. 3 Sub C Sanyo made in Japan… holds good charge, did a lot of work with it last summer. Charges nice and cool in a primitive charger that will over charge if left. Have to manually stop charging after 3 hours…
So I’m hoping I can get to 20 years! Capacity seems so good still... What’s my chances for getting the same NiCd cells in the drill to last as long? I’ll let you know how my experiment goes as the years pass…


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## Owen (Jan 30, 2007)

Thanks very much for all the replies. 
At the time I bought these, I was indeed using the tools frequently, and may again, depending on what kind of projects I get into. I have a corded drill, and corded Sawzall, but that doesn't mean I want my favorite power tools to just sit here because I don't have batteries for them. 
The Li-ion upgrade is an attractive option, but only if I can't get my current batts working again. If I were using them daily on a job, I wouldn't hesitate.
I may take them to a nearby Batteries Plus, and see how much they'll rebuild them for, rather than chance screwing them up myself.
Thanks again to everyone who responded.


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## BIGIRON (Jan 30, 2007)

Several years ago I was in the middleof a job when my drill died. Sears was close, so I bought an 18v set (the red one, made by Ryobi) to finish the job. The drill was OK I but really liked the worklight that came with it.

Batteries died after a reasonable period of use. Sears wanted like $70 plus shipping for a batt. I replaced the drill with a Porter-Cable (which is great), but I really liked the Sears light. 

Home Depot had the 18v Ryobi batteries on sale for $20, so I bought one and with just a little Dremel work and duct tape I fit the Ryobi innards into one of the Sears cases. Works fine, but is ugly.


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## Owen (Jan 30, 2007)

I know what you mean!
Sears had a flourescent light that ran off their 19.2V batts that I got to see in action, and it was great.
I've often wished for battery compatibility between manufacturers. That would suit me, but not them, unfortunately...


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## Any Cal. (Jan 30, 2007)

Make sure the problem is not a bad charger. I condemned two batteries, then realized the prob was the charger. See if it works with the one good battery. Also make sure the batt temps ar OK. Usually charger will not work unless batts are over 40 or so.


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## Stingray (Jan 30, 2007)

I rebuilt my dead Craftsman 14.4V packs by buying 14.4V spares for Harbor Freight drills for $5 and transplanting the cells into the dead Craftsman ones. Worked great. I bought some extras and rebuilt my 2.4V driver and 3.6V 1/4" ratchet so far also.


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## grillmasterp (Jan 30, 2007)

Owen,
I looked into rebuilding two old packs - however the cost of the sub-c batts (15 per battery pack) - didn't seem that cost effective - (yeah, I would get a longer lasting pack)
I've bought a several replacement battery packs from heavydutytools.net
http://heavydutytools.net/Scripts/prodView.asp?idProduct=31

Also, I have managed to squeeze extra life out of some "dead" battery packs-
The standard charger requires a minimum voltage in order to charge a battery pack. So if you allow a battery to completely drain- It won;t have enoiugh residual voltage for the charger to detect it. Using a 12V battery supply- you can jump start some batteries that have completely drained.


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## grillmasterp (Jan 30, 2007)

diesel_dad said:


> I am also keeping an eye out for the TerraLux ToolStar18 LED replacement for the Milwaukee bulb in the work light.



http://batteryjunction.com/tstetoupfory.html


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## Stingray (Jan 30, 2007)

The sub-c's were less than $.50 each at Harbor Freight. I don't know the specs, but at that price, who cares. That's less than $9 for an 18V packs worth, plus a little soldering, no big deal.


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## 65535 (Jan 30, 2007)

I would gladly take them off your hands for you (add some cheap new cells to them and send them back to you fully charged) if you'll pay for the cells shipping and the few minutes of my time.


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## bob_ninja (Jan 30, 2007)

As others pointed out there are often great deals, so sometimes rebuilding batteries is worth the effort. Depends.

LiIons have some advantages. The main problem with these packs is that they consist of too many cells. I have a 19.2V pack which is probably 16 cells ( x 1.2V = 19.2V). One or two bad cells will ruin the entire pack. Since LiIon is 3.7V that means you need less cells, 3x less, to build the same pack. Less cells means less chances of a single cell going bad prematurely.

LiIon have a lower self discharge rate. This is great for people who don't use their tools often, such as leaving a spare battery idle for a full year. You can forget them and after a long time they'll still have some charge left. NiCd and NiMH loose their charge, so a full year may deplete them too much. I rotate my batteries and try to put them all to use every 2-3 months. I try to charge them at least every 6 months even if not used at all.

So simple rule could be, frequent use go with NiCd, infrequent use go with LiIon.


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## Brum (Jan 30, 2007)

bob_ninja said:


> As others pointed out there are often great deals, so sometimes rebuilding batteries is worth the effort. Depends.
> 
> LiIons have some advantages. The main problem with these packs is that they consist of too many cells. I have a 19.2V pack which is probably 16 cells ( x 1.2V = 19.2V). One or two bad cells will ruin the entire pack. Since LiIon is 3.7V that means you need less cells, 3x less, to build the same pack. Less cells means less chances of a single cell going bad prematurely.
> 
> ...


So professional users should go with the cheap option while DIY'rs who use their tools a few times a year should spend multiple 100$'s on just the batterypacks? Doesn't really sound logical, does it? But then again, I've got zero experience with the lithium packs. I always thought NiCD was the best option, as they can handle a lot of abuse and are pretty cheap. Downsides being heavy and having less power density.
Though I've never seen the guts of a Li-ion powertool battery, my guess is that they use smaller cells (ie 2 or 3P, maybe even 4P setup) to cope with the high current drain on this machinery (I've measured around 10A on my cordless 14,4V NiMH Hitachi drill)


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## 65535 (Jan 30, 2007)

Nimhs are the best for older technology NICD memory basically kills the cells fast if not properly discharged before charging.


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## MarNav1 (Jan 30, 2007)

Owen said:


> I have three Milwaukee 18V 2.4Ah batteries that I've rotated, usually keeping two fully charged, for the last 3 1/2 years. Two came with a drill, one with a cordless Sawzall.
> I had been using my drill, swapped batteries, and put the one I'd been using on charge. About a month went by, and I went to use the drill again-dead battery. Took the one off the charger-dead also. Luckily the third battery was in a toolbag in my basement, and worked fine.
> So I've got two dead batteries, and they've been sitting here for a couple of months 'til I remembered them. The day I discovered they weren't working, both were reading a little over 1V on my MM. Now one is reading 1.0, and the other 0.0. The charger light does not come on when I try to charge them(though it originally did on the dead one that I'd put on the charger).
> My tools have only seen heavy use that really depleted the batteries a couple of times(I use a corded Super Sawzall for real work), and that is very rare. 90% of their use goes to my drill as a glorified screwdriver.
> ...


 There are a few battery rebuilder's around and they will fix your old cell's up better than
new with longer runtime and much better performance. Drop me a PM would ya?


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## SilverFox (Jan 30, 2007)

Hello Stingray,

I am using sub C cells in my B90 project. I picked the highest quality cells that I could find, and still had problems with some of them. My pack uses 3 cells, and the cells that I used cost around $8.50 each.

A battery pack is only as good as the weakest cell.

Are you really suggesting building packs that utilize around a dozen cells using $0.50 cells?

Tom


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## bob_ninja (Jan 30, 2007)

Brum said:


> So professional users should go with the cheap option while DIY'rs who use their tools a few times a year should spend multiple 100$'s on just the batterypacks? Doesn't really sound logical, does it? But then again, I've got zero experience with the lithium packs. I always thought NiCD was the best option, as they can handle a lot of abuse and are pretty cheap. Downsides being heavy and having less power density.
> Though I've never seen the guts of a Li-ion powertool battery, my guess is that they use smaller cells (ie 2 or 3P, maybe even 4P setup) to cope with the high current drain on this machinery (I've measured around 10A on my cordless 14,4V NiMH Hitachi drill)



To be honest I didn't consider the price. I do prefer NiCd myself, but make sure to maintain them even when idle for a long time.
Here is my example. My 1st 14.4V drill, 2 batt packs, no clue about batteries.
Didn't have much need for the drill so pack were sitting idle for a long time, no charging or anything. They were sitting in the garage where temps now go below 0F. Sure enough, after about 3 years they are pretty much dead.

So if I were ignorant and/or lazy I would be purhasing new NiCd packs every 3 years, while a LiIon might last 10 years without babysitting. This is just a suggestion. I haven't used any LiIon packs yet. Could be wrong.


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## SpiritLed (Jan 30, 2007)

Seems that they knew about the problem with the battery packs and/ or charger and came up with a program to dump them on an unsuspecting public - me included.

Big discount on a nice drill and case with two batteries, and coupons for more discounted batteries.

Two of my three batteries died inside six weeks, and the third lasted about three months, but wouldn't hold a charge over night.
I tried to jump start them with a power supply after reading that trick, but they all had shorted cells.

Looked inside, but I don't want to go throught the expense of rebuilding NiCd packs, only to repeat the previous outcome.

I can probably buy a new drill with batteries for the cost of the new lion packs. 

I own several other MW AC powered tools. No more after this.


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## Stingray (Jan 30, 2007)

SilverFox said:


> Hello Stingray,
> 
> I am using sub C cells in my B90 project. I picked the highest quality cells that I could find, and still had problems with some of them. My pack uses 3 cells, and the cells that I used cost around $8.50 each.
> 
> ...



Yeah, for home use cordless drills, I am 

I rebuilt my 2 Craftsman 14.4V drill packs using the cells from the Harbor Freight $5 14.4V packs and they have been working great. They all tested good when I checked them, and I've used the new packs many times since then. They are every bit as good as the original Craftsman packs so far.

I'm not recommending that someone with mission critical tools who makes a living using them everyday should do this, although it might be just fine for them too, but for the average home user it makes sense. 12 sub-c cells for $5 and a little soldering time, no big deal and not much to lose. 

At $8.50 a cell times 24 cells ($204), it would make more sense to go buy a new drill with 2 new battery packs and a new smart charger than to rebuild my old ones.


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## SilverFox (Jan 30, 2007)

Hello Stingray,

Fair enough. Just checking.  

Tom


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## Stingray (Jan 30, 2007)

Tom,

I have an 8X with 6 B90's, 3 or 4 of which are getting old and performing poorly. This light gets used heavily, it's my main workhorse light around the house and garage. I've been reading your B90 thread with interest, since that is an application where I *would* want the best possible cells available. Unfortunately, my charger is the old style without the blinking light so I don't think it will work.


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## Owen (Jan 30, 2007)

Thanks again for the replies(and the offers of help!).
I'm going to try to keep this local, if possible, and check out my options, and costs, before bothering anyone here, or sending the batteries off. I do appreciate the offers, though.


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