# The SF A2 - Part 2



## js (Nov 18, 2006)

This space reserved.

I will be doing a 2nd part to the first installment of my The SF A2 thread. So I am posting this now because the 1st part is getting up towards 250 posts, well over the 200 post suggested maximum size for a thread.

Continued discussion should continue here, not in part 1.

Thanks!

And again, I will be editing this post to fill it up with lots of good SF A2 technical details--but not for some time. Still, I am going to do it eventually. Just as a teaser, I plan on posting oscilloscope pictures of the LVR in action.


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## Codeman (Nov 18, 2006)

js said:


> ... Just as a teaser, I plan on posting oscilloscope pictures of the LVR in action.


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## TENMMIKE (Nov 18, 2006)

perfect even though im not a big A2 guy i was trying to find this thread just yesterday(the original).


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## Schnotts (Nov 18, 2006)

I just got an A2 last week and I rather like it. Nice and small, built tough the white LED's work great. Can't go wrong with this light.


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## JNewell (Nov 18, 2006)

One good topic for this continuation thread might be the "low incan" mode (snip from your concluding post on the Part 1 thread below). I think some people would assume that the regulation circuit would boost low battery voltage to the normal level for the incan bulb and then quit completely, rather than permitting the incan bulb to operate at sub-regulation voltage. Another related topic would be whether operation at that level has any operating effect on bulb life.



> Also, please note that I just edited the first post as I realized that in the discussion of exactly what is happening during the occurance of an "low incan" mode, I left out the fact that low batteries can cause this and not just extra resistance in the contacts. In fact, I see this every time my batteries get to the point where they will no longer support the incan. The incan doesn't just totally stop. Instead I push to activate it, and get a 1/3 or 1/4 power incan beam, and it has always been fixed by installing new batteries. And I left this possibility out of account in my original discussion. DUH! Too obvious or something.


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## js (Nov 19, 2006)

JNewell,

The LVR is a PWM *buck only* regulator. It can only cut down on the DC equivalent voltage, not increase it. This is why the regulator is 99 percent efficient.

The "dim incan" mode won't hurt the bulb in any way--and besides, it doesn't last for long anyway before the batteries no longer even turn on the regulator at all.

As I said before, the "dim incan" mode occurs because the regulator has a turn-on voltage setpoint, and a lower turn-off voltage set-point. So in certain situations the power source and circuit path can be such that it can turn on the LVR, *but not KEEP it on*. In that case, you get a ON-OFF-ON-OFF, etc. modulation _on top of_ the usual operation of the regulator.

It's just inherent in the way the dual-mode operation is set up for the A2. Just like how the LED's are on when the incan is on. Some consider this a defect, and perhaps it is, but the fact remains that it would require a TOTAL REDESIGN of all elements of the A2 in order to "fix" this, or the "low incan" mode. These are what they are, but to my mind, they are pretty minor issues, if they are "issues" at all. I don't mind the LED's being on when the incan is on, and if I had to choose, I would choose a regulation scheme where you have some kind of warning before totally losing your high beam.

Anyway, start to think about how a dual mode light could be implemented. Wrack your brain for all the different ways and how you would make it work, and you will see--I think--that the A2 occupies _one of_ the optimal solutions for doing a multi-level light. The other one is, I think, a uC. But in that case, you have a more complicated user interface than the A2 switching operation.


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## buihia (Nov 19, 2006)

hmm a question on the A2 LED..

may i know if the LED mode of the A2 will be as bright as the keychain light that Lighthound ships free for every 20 dollar purchase..will it be brighter or dimmer than that ?


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## FiftyCalAl (Nov 19, 2006)

when did the body change from the 4 flat sides to the more rounded version of the present


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## joema (Nov 19, 2006)

buihia said:


> ...if the LED mode of the A2 will be as bright as the keychain light that Lighthound ships free for every 20 dollar purchase..will it be brighter or dimmer than that ?


One "Photon II clone" tested by FLR had an overall output of 1.2: http://www.flashlightreviews.com/reviews/amart_kph.htm, by comparison an Arc AAA-P had an overall output of 5.2: http://www.flashlightreviews.com/reviews/arc_aaa-p.htm, and the Surfire A2 LED mode (white) also had an overall output of 5.2: http://www.flashlightreviews.com/reviews/surefire_a2.htm.

I have all three of those lights, and the Photon II clone is not as bright as the Arc AAA-P or A2, and the beam is narrower. Keep in mind overall output is a function of both brightness and surface area of the beam at a given distance. Only a little wider beam angle at the same distance translates to a lot more surface area (area = pi * r^2), hence at the same surface brightness a lot more output.

However unlike the FLR test, my A2 LED mode appears somewhat brighter than my Arc AAA-P, especially considering the broader beam. Not hugely so but somewhat.


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## EV_007 (Nov 20, 2006)

buihia said:


> hmm a question on the A2 LED..
> 
> may i know if the LED mode of the A2 will be as bright as the keychain light that Lighthound ships free for every 20 dollar purchase..will it be brighter or dimmer than that ?




The freebie keychain is way brighter and whiter than the white LEDs of the A2, HOWEVER, the LED on the keychain light is overdriven and the runtime on the included batteries will be a fraction of the A2's LEDs.

That little keychain rocks! I've given many away to friends and family.


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## JimmyB (Nov 20, 2006)

OK, speaking of A2's, anyone notice different beam characteristics on the newer A2's? I have an older A2 with red LED's that I bought right after they came on the market. It has the typical A2 oblong, "football" shaped beam, and is a pretty good thrower.  


I just bought a round body A2 (white LED) that has a very round beam, none of the artifacts of the original, and in fact looks very much like an E2E beam (MNO3). The entire beam is very smooth all the way to the edges. It appears to be much more of a flood style although it still reaches out pretty well. Is this an anomaly or have the lights or lamps changed. I'd just swap lamps from the old to new just to test them but I don't have access to my old A2 right now.  


I actually prefer the way my new A2's beam looks/works so if it *is* a fluke, I'm keepin it


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## Blindasabat (Nov 20, 2006)

I have a newer round style body and I have a football beam, but mine is not that new and I don't have an old one to compare to. I do have a new spare lamp, but it's still in sealed packaging, so I never tried it. Let us know how your lamp swap works out. I may have to open my new lamp now...


JimmyB said:


> OK, speaking of A2's, anyone notice different beam characteristics on the newer A2's? I have an older A2 with red LED's that I bought right after they came on the market. It has the typical A2 oblong, "football" shaped beam, and is a pretty good thrower.
> 
> I just bought a round body A2 (white LED) that has a very round beam, none of the artifacts of the original, and in fact looks very much like an E2E beam (MNO3). The entire beam is very smooth all the way to the edges. It appears to be much more of a flood style although it still reaches out pretty well. Is this an anomaly or have the lights or lamps changed. I'd just swap lamps from the old to new just to test them but I don't have access to my old A2 right now.


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## js (Nov 20, 2006)

My guess would be that it is a fluke, and actually is due to the collar on the lamp assembly itself. In other words, if you filed away some of the collar to allow the lamp to protrude into the A2 head a bit more, you might find the beam becoming more oblong.

Or, you can always add some kind of spacer to the collar to effectively pull the lamp back a bit. I would use kapton tape for this, but whatever it is, it should be heat resistant and should stay on the collar and not fall off inside the top of the body/head area and gunk any thing up (or short it out).


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## MacTech (Nov 20, 2006)

I'm a relative newcomer to the A2 crowd as well, and i've gone through all the standard phases of A2 ownership;

1; New-Toy-itis; "This is the COOLEST flashlight EVAR!!!!11one!" 
2; Second Thoughts; "wait a minute, what does the A2 do specifically that makes it *worth* $150-200?, my <insert flashlight #1> and <insert flashlight #2> do the same things as the A2 and are *less expensive* to boot...."
3; Regret; "this thing was a waste of money, maybe I should *sell* it?..."
4; Usage; "well, if I'm thinking of selling it anyway, maybe I should actually *USE* it for a bit first, see if I really want to sell it and take a loss, or just chalk it up to a learning experience..."
5; Understanding; "I finally *GET IT*, the A2 *IS* an awesome light, it's a perfectly *balanced* illumination tool, low LED puts out just the *right* amount of light for most general use, and the high-beam has a nice balance between flood, throw, and color rendition, it may not be the brightest SureFire, or the longest running, but it's *just right* for 90% of most flashlight needs, it really is a stellar light
and finally....
6; Satisfaction; "Now that I have, use, and understand my A2, I have no "need" to buy any more flashlights, if I get the urge for a new light, I simply look at my A2, ask myself 'what will it do that my A2 won't?', and 90% of the time, the desire for the new light simply vanishes...."

Basically to make a long post longer  , the A2 is a rare light, it's something you need to spend *time* with actually *using*, not White Wall Hunting, actually *using* it, if you try to evaluate the A2 on a short-term basis, you'll likely not "get" it, and come away unsatisfied, give it at least 3 weeks to a month of actual *use* before passing judgement on it, it's meant to be a "balanced" light, it's not blisteringly bright like a P61 equipped SF, it's not an ultra-long runner (although the LED's *ARE* pretty darned efficient), and the beam pattern isn't the flawless SF beam pattern so beloved of WWH'ers, it *is* what it *is*, the *perfect*, balanced EDC for those that actually *use* their lights as tools

Now that i've spent a good amount of time maligning and generally badmouthing the A2, but in a good way , let me cover it's *good* points, and there are many;

It's the perfect length for EDC, it fits my hand perfectly, the body disappears into my palm, the tail-cap sticks out far enough for comfortable use of the momentary/twisty one-handed, the bezel sticks out far enough from my hand to give an unobstructed beam, by comparison, when holding my G2 and 6P, the bezel of the light is partially hidden by my hand, the knurling on the A2 has the right balance of grippability without being too aggressive, the 6P's knurling is a little smoother, and the G2's checkering is smoother still

The incan is remarkably efficient, i've been using the light pretty much constantly for the past few weeks incan burn-times typically range from momentary to 10-15 minutes at a stretch, i've lost count of the amount of time i've used the LED low-beam, and after all of that, the incan beam is just as bright and white as the day I took it out of the packaging, the batteries ZTS at 60% even after a bunch of heavy use, the regulation circuit, documented so admirably in JS's A2 "Überthread" does a remarkable job of keeping the incan beam bright and white throughout the battery life, I was skeptical, to say the least, of all the vaunted performance numbers of the regulated incan, but they're true, the regulated incan works, is reliable, and is a brilliant bit of engineering

The low-beam LED's on paper are *laughable*, 3 lumens, an artifacty yellow/blue beam, typical of Nichia 5MM's, it's no WWH winner (although the incan beam does throw a kinda' cool "Biohazard"-y beam pattern), but you know what?, in *real life* use, it doesn't matter, the 3 lumen LED beam is in the form of a wide, soft flood with a slightly brighter hotspot, but it clearly leans more towards the floody side than throw, that 3 lumen flood does incredibly well with dark adapted eyes, and is quite usable rooting around in dark computer cases as well, the wide flood is far more usable than you'd think, and the color balance of the Nichias aren't too bad for general use either, and of course, being LED's efficiency is a given, i've been able to take batteries that ZTS at 0% and get usable light out of them with the A2's LED beam

This is my first SureFire with Hard Anodizing, and it's holding up remarkably well, yes there are tiny spots on the "points" of the knurling that are starting to get silvery, but that's expected as HA doesn't adhere well to "edges", it's going to happen with use, and it's less than 1% of the light in total, the other 99% of the light looks as good as the day it came out of the packaging, I even like the slight color mismatch on the bezel ring, bezel and body of the light, gives it a more functional, more stark, "military" look

This is also the first SureFire I don't feel comfortable letting the Unenlightened use, yes part of it is the fact it's a $200 flashlight and I don't think my cow-orkers would treat it with the respect due an expensive tool, but the other part is the fact that it's just such a cool light, and I know for a fact that my cow-orkers wouldn't truly be able to appreciate [Gollum] The Precioussss [/Gollum] the way I would, that's okay, I have a P61'ed 6P and G&P 3W LED'ed G2 that I can hand out as loaners, that is when I don't have my MagLed 3AA on me

If you're willing to give the A2 a chance, not just a quick test, give it an actual *chance*, I think you'll be pleasantly surprised


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## Atomic_Chicken (Mar 8, 2007)

Greetings!

JS - I just read through the entire 8-page original thread you started, as well as this one. I just wanted to say "Well Done" to you... thanks for such an informative article and for starting such a great set of replies.

I personally don't think the A2 is for everyone - but I'm quite certain that it is for me! 

P.S. Love your avatar!

Best wishes,
Bawko


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## cslinger (Mar 8, 2007)

You its pretty funny to me that the A2, which is a comparitively old flashlight for this community, is still one of the "cool" useful lights that folks tend to eventually come to. That fact is, it is one of the best most balanced lighting tools I have ever seen. If you are simply looking for the coolest toy or brightest toy or best beam on a wall the A2 is not for you. If you are looking for one of the best lighting "tools" to be used as a "tool" then the A2 is hard to beat.

Chris


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## clipse (Mar 8, 2007)

Dangit, now I'm thinking I need to get an A2 again. I really miss mine and wish hadn't have sold it.


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## leukos (Mar 8, 2007)

Still waiting on Part 2, js.


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## FASTCAR (Mar 8, 2007)

A2 was a great light...a few years ago


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## cslinger (Mar 8, 2007)

> A2 was a great light...a few years ago



What lighting needs today can the A2 not do vs. a few years ago? Personally I still don't think there is a light on the market that can match the A2s versatility and usefullness. I am predominently a LED kind of guy but a good incan. is still a better tool for several purposes and the A2 just does everything so well.


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## JNewell (Mar 8, 2007)

FASTCAR said:


> A2 was a great light...a few years ago


 
Unfortunately, the same can be said about many, if not most lights introduced in the last few years...as well as those being introduced now...


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## arnold ziffle (Mar 8, 2007)

my a2 had a beam i called the fuzzy potato. mine came with a case and two lamps so i frosted one of the lamps with a diamond sharpener and the beam was much better. someone posted that if you put the lamp in a certain way the beam will round out. it took me about 6 tries and it worked. its so nice now i'm afraid to mess with it.


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## Illum (Mar 8, 2007)

arnold ziffle said:


> my a2 had a beam i called the fuzzy potato. mine came with a case and two lamps so i frosted one of the lamps with a diamond sharpener and the beam was much better. someone posted that if you put the lamp in a certain way the beam will round out. it took me about 6 tries and it worked. its so nice now i'm afraid to mess with it.



I never got there...when you replace the MA02 the bulb rotates when you twist the bezel...after 5 times I quit. do you replace the bezel when the lights facing up or down?


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## Atomic_Chicken (Mar 8, 2007)

Greetings!

I think all you A2 guys who are trying to rotate the bulb to get a perfectly round beam are missing the point...

If you use the light as-is, with the oval beam, you can orient the light by rotating so that it covers more horizontal area than a normal beam... allowing you to see more peripheral area. In otherwords, use the oval shape to its advantage, letting you see more to the left and right of you than you would if you achieved your "perfect round" beam.

This is one thing about the A2 I really like... actually, I can't think of much that I DON'T like! 

Best wishes,
Bawko


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## js (Mar 8, 2007)

Atomic Chicken,

Thanks! I appreciate the kind words! My avatar, BTW, is a pic of Kate Beckinsale from one of the Underworld movies. She rocks!

Leukos,

Yeah. I know. It's high time for the first post in Part 2 to get filled in with good stuff. But, alas, it will be a while longer before I form up my notes into a presentable post. Sorry! 

Everyone,

Personally, I've never had to rotate my MA02! Everytime I've installed a new one or just unscrewed and rescrewed on the head for some reason, the beam has come back almost exactly the same.

In any case, there are two points to consider here:

1. The oval beam is *oval by design!* If the beam were round, the throw would be less.

2. If you can manage to find an orientation where you get a round beam, I suspect that that means that you are _optimizing the loss from the LEDs/holes_ such that you are losing throw. Or trading throw for aesthetics.

You can do this, of course, but _it was not the intention of the design_.

As for frosting the lamp to get a "much better" beam, it all depends on what you mean by "better". If by "better" you mean "looks pretty on a white wall", well then yes, by all means, frost and rotate and add some vasoline to the lens. Or maybe some scotch tape! Yeah. There ya go. With lots of fussing and futsing you can get your A2 a bit closer to the beam of an E2e or an LED light!

Or--and HERE's an idea!--you could just buy an E2e or an LED light _in the first place!_.

FASTCAR,

So, you come into this thread and post--what?--some jerky comment like "The A2 was a great light...a few years ago"? What gives? Let me ask you, DID YOU EVEN READ PART 1 OF THIS? Or are you just tossing out a knee jerk comment like that to improve your image (or post count)?

Comments like this always annoy me. I suppose what people mean when they say things like that is that there are much better lights for the money available today, than there were a couple years ago. And that, by comparison, the A2 has fallen behind and is no longer a good value for the money. It's old technology.

But, again, it all depends on your needs and priorities. I've said it again and again. I've said it till I was blue in the face. And, evidently, I will have to continue to say it: the A2 is an easy mark. It's easy to "prove" or show how it's a lousy flashlight for the money. How one of the latest and greatest Cree lights or K2 lights is such a better light. The problem with all of these "proofs", though, is that the fact is that for a certain class of users, for a certain class of uses, the A2 remains unrivaled. It is still the very best light for my EDC uses. Period. There is no other that is better at any price.

Obviously, that's just me, and for others, the A2 is a bad choice. No question. I have never championed the A2 as the sort of light that everyone should have, that is so overwhelmingly great that it blows everything else away. No. It's not that light. Nothing about it is going to WOW! you or blow you away--not if you're like most people.

(As a side note, though, for me the A2 was love at first sight. I knew it was going to be perfect for me. But, I was fairly mature as a flashaholic at that point, and had already gone through a number of lights in search of what I needed. So I could recognize the greatness of the A2 at that point, whereas I'm not sure that would have been the case if it had been my starting point.)

What is the greatness of the A2? Versatility and utility. The _quality_ and _utility_ of the light from the incandescent part of the A2 is unrivaled in a light of its size. It's not the prettiest beam, or the most pleasing light to look at, _but when it comes to looking at THINGS (and not the light itself), the light from the A2 incan is awesome_.

The A2 is a tool. And as a tool it is outstanding. It's not a "amaze your friends and family" kind of light. It's not the light you shine up on your ceiling and get all dreamy over. It's not the light that sits on your shelf as King or Queen. (Although it may be the one that sits in a drawer!)

No. For certain people (like myself) the A2 is the trusty, every day carry, work horse light that sees the most use of all.

I love my A2. If I could keep only one light out of all the lights I own, it would be the A2, hands down, in a second. It's a really great light, now, two years ago, or ten years hence.


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## Atomic_Chicken (Mar 8, 2007)

Greetings!



js said:


> Atomic Chicken,
> 
> Thanks! I appreciate the kind words! My avatar, BTW, is a pic of Kate Beckinsale from one of the Underworld movies. She rocks!


Yes... that's why I like it! I think Kate is the sexiest woman alive... and her vampiness in those movies just made it ALL the better! 

You have great taste in flashlights AND women... and I look forward to your continuing posts regarding the A2.

Best wishes,
Bawko


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## ScooterBug (Mar 8, 2007)

i agree intirely. my A2 would be the LAST too go. i also am waiting for future post about KATE!!! her and an A2 would be hard too beat.


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## LA OZ (Mar 8, 2007)

js, because of your great review, you have assist surefire sell of A2 by a few folds. I hope they appreciate your time.


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## js (Mar 9, 2007)

Atomic Chicken,

TinderBox (UK) is also in the Kate Beckinsale fanclub and has a Kate Beckinsale avatar, and a link in his sigline to a full size version of the avatar picture. THAT'S also a nice avatar picture.

For a long time I had an avatar picture of one of my ring-potted lamps, which is probably the modding acheivement I am most proud of, but after a couple years of looking at it, and after a somewhat protracted, but radical change in philosophical and religious outlook, and after seeing Underworld, I decided I wanted a FUN avatar! One that I like to look at time and time again. If it's tacky or mid-life crisesy of me, so be it. I don't care.

As for a future Kate post, well, this is it I guess. There are some pretty fun interviews with her available on the web. She's really a kick! I was going to post a large Kate picture here, but, eh, no need to add all that extra bandwith for dialup users. It's for a good cause, to be sure, but a rather off topic one, though. Plus, I don't have any pics of Kate holding an A2! LOL!


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## arnold ziffle (Mar 10, 2007)

illum the nation i think i got lucky on the sixth try. my original beam was really bad to where when you used it outside there were large dark spots where things could be missed. my beam was at least three times as wide as it was high.


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## js (Mar 10, 2007)

arnold ziffle,

It sounds as if that is a _focusing_ problem and not a rotation problem. You can try filing away some of the plastic from the collar to move the lamp filament forward in relation to the reflector, or you could try adding some paper--like pieces cut from the sticky part of a post it note--to move the lamp back. OR, better yet, you can complain to SF CS and get them to rectify the situation.

THIS IS NOT A NORMAL A2 BEAM THAT YOU DESCIRBE.


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## arnold ziffle (Mar 10, 2007)

js i'mgoing to leave alone as it is pretty good now. if for some stupid reason i take the head off i'll remember your tips.. thanks.


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## 270winchester (Mar 10, 2007)

Dang it Jim, you just made buy buy another A2 in GY.

Shame on you Atomic_CHicken, for reviving this thread!!!


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## Atomic_Chicken (Mar 10, 2007)

Greetings!



270winchester said:


> ...Shame on you Atomic_CHicken, for reviving this thread!!!


What can I say? I just had to be done... 

Best wishes,
Bawko


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## batman (Mar 10, 2007)

to JS and other owners of the well endowed A2;


I noticed my window (lens) has a smudge in the center that looks like finger prints. It's not easily visible until you actually see a glare on it. It seems no amount of wiping it with a napin or T-shirt will clean it off so I suspect it's on the inside of the lens. Anyone else have this? Is this from the factory to get a smoother beam?


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## CLHC (Mar 10, 2007)

Just went out and bought me my first SF.Digital+Series A2 Aviator w/_Verde_ LED (which I prefer) and am really liking it! ! !


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## rcashel11 (Mar 10, 2007)

I'm going to _have_ to buy the A2-YG now to go along with my A2-WH. Thanks again, js.


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## js (Mar 12, 2007)

batman,

Nope. Not from the factory. Did you buy it new? If so, is this the way it came? If so, definitely get SF to fix it. If this is a new developement, or if you got it used, and it isn't having much practical impact on the beam, try and live with it. Or if it is affecting the beam significantly, or if you can't live with it, get SF to fix it for you. They may or may not fix it free of charge. One thing I can say for sure, though, is this:

DO NOT TRY TO FIX IT YOURSELF.

Not unless you are very confident that you can remove the bezel, clean, and reassemble. It's tricky. You'll need to heat up the bezel in order to be able to unscrew it without damaging anything. IIRC, people do this in a plastic bag in hot water. And I'm not sure what you need to use in reassembly to re-waterproof the head. It's definitely tricky. Be careful. Best to just send back to SF.


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## Atomic_Chicken (Mar 12, 2007)

Greetings!



js said:


> batman,
> 
> Nope. Not from the factory. Did you buy it new? If so, is this the way it came? If so, definitely get SF to fix it. If this is a new developement, or if you got it used, and it isn't having much practical impact on the beam, try and live with it. Or if it is affecting the beam significantly, or if you can't live with it, get SF to fix it for you. They may or may not fix it free of charge. One thing I can say for sure, though, is this:
> 
> ...



My first thought when reading batman's thread is that he might be able to use a Q-tip with a little isopropyl or denatured alcohol on it... carefully introducing it through the hole where the incandescent bulb normally goes, and wiping off the fingerprint from the inside. Any reason that wouldn't work? It would definitely eliminate the need to disassemble the bezel...

Best wishes,
Bawko


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## js (Mar 12, 2007)

Bawko,

It's certainly an option. Have you ever done this? It would certainly worry me. Once you introduce foreign material inside a SF head, it has a tendency to stay there and make things worse--like making thing fog up during running and what not. Or at least I have some annecdotes (personal and reported) to that effect.

But, yeah, it should work I guess, as long as all the iso can be aired out. Another thing to worry about is a drop of iso falling on the reflector in the process. That would leave a streak on it.

It's been my painful experience over the years that whenever I have tried to "fix" something like this on my own, I have always ended up making it worse. Reflectors and lenses are very sensitive and delicate and show every little freaking thing, and it's just so easy to go from bad to worse. My E2e head was a casualty of just this sort of thing--I was trying to remove a speck of dust. In hindsight, the spec of dust would have been so much better than a head which fogs up every time I run the light for longer than a few minutes.

I've read about people pro-golding their A2 head contacts, then getting the liquid inside the bezel, then ruining the bezel while trying to open it to clean the pro-gold which was applied to "clean" and preserve the contacts, when the contacts would have been fine without the pro-gold. This isn't a maglite! Every contact is corrosion resistant and low contact resistance already.

Ehh. I'm probably not the most impartial and objective person to ask on the matter, I guess.

Best of luck, Batman!


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## DM51 (Mar 13, 2007)

Atomic_Chicken said:


> My first thought when reading batman's thread is that he might be able to use a Q-tip with a little isopropyl or denatured alcohol on it... carefully introducing it through the hole where the incandescent bulb normally goes, and wiping off the fingerprint from the inside.


Wouldn't this void the warranty?


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## Atomic_Chicken (Mar 13, 2007)

Greetings!



DM51 said:


> Wouldn't this void the warranty?



Why would it void the warranty to clean a flashlight?

Best wishes,
Bawko


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## DM51 (Mar 13, 2007)

If you left a streak or stain on the inside from trying to clean it, and SF couldn't remove it later, they could say you should have sent it to them to clean it in the first place. 

Maybe they wouldn't actually make a big issue out of it as their CS has a very good reputation.


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## scubasteve1942 (Mar 13, 2007)

Well after reading all the great threads on the A2 I ordered one. I got the White LED version from tactical supply and used the CPF discount. I cant wait till it gets here. I just wanted to thank JS, GreenLed, and Atomic chicken for taking the time to write their very in depth reviews on the A2.


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## DM51 (Mar 22, 2007)

Very interesting new A2 mod by Atomic Chicken - this thread:
http://candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=158332


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## BD457 (May 18, 2007)

Uh....................WOW! 


Outstanding thread. I purchased a used A2 because I thought it was a good deal and just wanted to "check it out". After getting it I "didn't get it" :laughing: .
I thought it was a pretty stupid light for the money. My normal EDC is an CR2 body with an L4 head. No run time, but I always have a spare charged up battery close by. 

Anyway.... I started to research this A2 thing here and was pointed to this thread. It's now my keeper. I needed some Enlightening. 

One question though......The incan. is regulated and I read here about how everybodys is so nice and white. Mine is quite yellow, even with new batterys. I've looked (all be it briefly) for anything that might cause high resistance and didn't see any. I'm certainly no electronics guru, just a light lover. Any ideas as to the cause?


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## Codeman (May 18, 2007)

It sounds like you simply need a new bulb (MA02). Keep in mind, though, that incandescent "white" isn't the same as LED "white". Incandescent bulbs tend to be on the warm side, unless they are overdriven (which isn't the case with the A2), meaning they have less of a blue tint like LED's tend to have.


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## greenLED (May 18, 2007)

Did you actually clean the contacts, or just took a look at them? Some grime is transparent.

Are you using BatteryStation batts by any chance?


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## McGizmo (May 18, 2007)

BD457,

If your A2 looks yellow relative to another incan, then look into the situation. If it looks yellow relative to a LED source then as Codeman suggests, I think your light is performing as expected.


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## Illum (May 18, 2007)

BD457 said:


> One question though......The incan. is regulated and I read here about how everybodys is so nice and white. Mine is quite yellow, even with new batterys. I've looked (all be it briefly) for anything that might cause high resistance and didn't see any. I'm certainly no electronics guru, just a light lover. Any ideas as to the cause?




BD457, is your A2 a new round body or an old square body?
I have this feeling that older models the driver somewhat wears out over use..see my thread on the apparent phenomenon....hopefully I understood correctly what your question is
*A2 improvement or is mine just defective? [pics]*

what many of us consider "white" is around 5500K...
the actual eyeballed "whiteness" depends on the wall color, angle of perspective, and the capabilities of your eyes to compare to a reference point, say a compact florescent lamp that you know is "white" not "warm white" or "rotten purpoise urine green" :laughing:



greenLED said:


> Some grime is transparent.



sometimes its not grime, but lube that smudged/accumulated on the contact region of the body aside from the threaded region. and lube is seldom conductive


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## js (May 18, 2007)

What everyone else said.

Plus, note that the MA02 lamp does dim with age due to tungsten deposition on the inside of the envelope.

So, for example, it wasn't until I got my 2nd A2 (brand new) and compared against my first that I realized that my first was dimmer. Popped in the spare lamp I had on hand, and VOILA, it was back to full brightness.

As for the regulator wearing out over time, it's highly unlikely. Failure of the regulator would be catastrophic, not gradual, in most cases. Not impossible, just very unlikely, unless I'm missing something (also possible).


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## Minjin (May 18, 2007)

js said:


> 1. The oval beam is oval by design! *If the beam were round, the throw would be less.*



I'd like to hear the reasoning and proof behind this.


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## js (May 18, 2007)

Minjin,

Well, the proof is really in my experience with positioning of transverse filament lamps (such as the A2 lamp) in parabloic reflectors with moderate to low divergence. I am responsible for the focusing/potting of the TigerLight Gen 4 lamp module, and in the process of trying to nail down the exact position of the filament inside the spun parabolic reflector, I got to experience a lot of different degrees of focus. If you make the hotspot perfectly _round_ you have less throw--significantly less, in fact. And if you go for the most intense center of the hotspot, regardless of the _shape_ of the hotspot, you invariably end up with an oval hotspot, and also in the process, the focus that gives you the longest throwing beam.

So, the proof comes from my practical, empirical experience.

Mostly.

I also have a theoretical reasoning, I think, but I admit that I haven't really worked it out with ray tracing and all that. In short, the filament is not a point source; it's a line source, and its radiation pattern is actually strongest radially outward from the axis of the filament (i.e. the rays going out perpendicular to the axis). The radiation directly out from the ends of the filament (i.e. parallel to the filament axis) is significantly less, not to say non-existant. So if you think about this cylinder of light radiating outward, and downward towards the reflector, you should be able to convince yourself that if the center of the filament is at optimal focus, that the ends will send out rays of light that will hit the surface of the reflector at a shallower angle than optimum, and thus end up wide of the ideal mark, to the left and right respectively for the left and right ends of the filament. This gives you the long primary axis of the oval/elliptical shape. Then, given that the filament has very little height to it relative to its length, you arrive at the short secondary axis of the ellipse.

Of course, I'm pretty sure that the optimal throw is not _precisely_ when the center of the filament is at the focal point. I'm rather certain it is with the center slightly off of that, which brings the left and right rays more parallel to the central axis of radiation. Still, you actually have to chose which range you want the optimum for. If you get the most darned intense hotspot on a white wall at 6 feet away, it will NOT be the best focus for 60 or 260 feet. I set the Gen4 lamp for the best focus at between 100 and 250 feet, more or less (the potting isn't precise enough to nail it down to much better than that). And I have some other lamp modules here that give a higher candlepower reading at 6 feet, but whose throw out in the field is noticeably not as good. The Gen4 doesn't overtake the 6 foot-optimal until about 35 feet, in fact.

Bla bla bla. OK. Cutting myself off.

That's what I've got. I hope it's more or less palatable for you!


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## Daniel_sk (May 18, 2007)

Js, SureFire should pay for all this :rock:- I am pretty sure a lot of people bought an A2 because of this.


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## greenLED (May 18, 2007)

Daniel_sk said:


> I am pretty sure a lot of people bought an A2 because of this.


Personally, js's "Part 1" got me hooked, and carrot's nagging pushed me off the fence. The only bad thing about the A2 is that after you get one, it kills off the "want more lights" feeling. Kinda anticlimatic for a hard core flashaholic, but that's how I felt.


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## Codeman (May 18, 2007)

greenLED said:


> Personally, js's "Part 1" got me hooked, and carrot's nagging pushed me off the fence. The only bad thing about the A2 is that after you get one, it kills off the "want more lights" feeling. Kinda anticlimatic for a hard core flashaholic, but that's how I felt.



Nonsense....heresy....blashemy!

A2's are just like Lay's potato chips - you can't stop at just one!

If you did, then you aren't hardcore!   :twothumbs

About the oval vs round thing. When I got my first Surefire, I thought it was perfectly round. Compared to the Mag's I was used to, it was. After a few more light purchases though, namely some with McGizmo reflectors, I started thinking something was wrong with my G2Z, Z3, A2, and e2 - they no longer had round beams. I thought maybe I'd run them too long and the reflector's had warped. Sometimes....what we perceive isn't quite what reality is. I'm still amazed how the human eye can adjust to light and give us the impression that one light's output is white...until we see it compared to another one and all of a sudden what we thought was white no longer is. As far as I can tell, though, a slightly oval beam or a perfectly round one, a white beam or a slightly warm beam, they all still light things up so that I can see in the dark. Mission accomplished! :shrug:

Now, if you want to see a non-round beam, try a hotwire with a traverse filament bulb. They aren't called batwings for nuttin'... :nana:


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## Daniel_sk (May 18, 2007)

greenLED said:


> Personally, js's "Part 1" got me hooked, and carrot's nagging pushed me off the fence. The only bad thing about the A2 is that after you get one, it kills off the "want more lights" feeling. Kinda anticlimatic for a hard core flashaholic, but that's how I felt.


 
Exactly, I was actually talking about the first part. If I read that article again, I'd probably go and rob a bank and buy that damn thing   .


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## Illum (May 18, 2007)

greenLED said:


> Personally, js's "Part 1" got me hooked, and carrot's nagging pushed me off the fence. The only bad thing about the A2 is that after you get one, it kills off the "want more lights" feeling. Kinda anticlimatic for a hard core flashaholic, but that's how I felt.



well, after Carrot's continuing  's I bought one and it replaced all my other lights in terms of function, so...yeah I know what you mean...only I'm not a hard core flashaholic, just a moderately obsessed flashaholic



Codeman said:


> A2's are just like Lay's potato chips - you can't stop at just one!



reminds me...hey Bawko, hows your 8th A2?


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## Atomic_Chicken (May 18, 2007)

Greetings!



Illum_the_nation said:


> reminds me...hey Bawko, hows your 8th A2?



It's OK... happily co-existing with the 9th, 10th, and 11th. 

I think that I may have the world's largest collection of Aviators outside of factory or dealer shelves at this point.

Best wishes,
Bawko


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## Illum (May 19, 2007)

Atomic_Chicken said:


> Greetings!
> 
> 
> 
> ...



we need another pic


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## DM51 (May 19, 2007)

Atomic_Chicken said:


> I think that I may have the world's largest collection of Aviators outside of factory or dealer shelves at this point.


You can't count the one you vandalised with your chainsaw. Photos of that one would probably be even more upsetting than the pics of nauss's L1 after his uncle chewed it up with his John Deere tractor.


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## Atomic_Chicken (May 19, 2007)

Greetings!



DM51 said:


> You can't count the one you vandalised with your chainsaw. Photos of that one would probably be even more upsetting than the pics of nauss's L1 after his uncle chewed it up with his John Deere tractor.



Chainsaw??? My good man... credit me with a bit more finesse!
It was a lathe and milling machine. Carbide tooling at high RPM - mirror smooth finish and all that. Chainsaws are for dolts and mass murderers! 

Best wishes,
Bawko


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## js (May 19, 2007)

Daniel_sk (and others),

Thanks for your kind words! The A2 review I did (part 1) was definitely a labor of love and involved a lot of time and effort, research, field testing, pictures, thought, and so on. And the funny thing is that it wasn't finished when I posted it. But I was like "It will never be finished. I've got to post something for now."

At this point, I'm thinking that Atomic_Chicken should do part 2 for us. I never could bring myself to sacrifice an A2 for the sake of knowledge, as much as I really wanted to show the internals and the LVR3L and o-scope pictures and all that. Well, I can get oscilloscope pics without destroying an A2 . . .

But anyway, Bawko is now probably the premier CPF expert on the A2. I think *he* should post the review that would have been "part 2" of my review. [muttering to self]Yeah. Bawko should do it. Get the new blood to do the dirty work. Time to relax. hehe[/muttering]


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## Minjin (May 20, 2007)

js said:


> Minjin,
> 
> Well, the proof is really in my experience... <snip>So, the proof comes from my practical, empirical experience....<snip>
> 
> That's what I've got. I hope it's more or less palatable for you!



Since you're calling me out in another thread for asking a simple question here, I'll respond... :shrug: 

The above snipets are what I was getting at. You say that if you align the filament such that the focus is the best (i.e. intensity is the greatest), it throws the furthest and _also happens to have an oval beam_. This is different from saying that the oval beam CAUSES it to throw better. 

I don't see there as being anything inherently better in the structure of an oval, but it certainly could be. Thats why I asked if you had a proof. And by that I was thinking in the mathematical sense.

If you take a circle and squash it down to an ellipse, yes you are increasing intensity. But if you take a circle and stretch it out to an oval (keeping the area the same), I don't see it as increasing intensity and thereby not increasing throw. This latter part is what I think of when you say that an oval throws better. Because to be a true comparison, you need to compare it to something of equal area. Yes, I know that we should be thinking in terms of volume, but lets keep it simple for now.


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## DM51 (May 20, 2007)

Minjin said:


> Since you're calling me out in another thread for asking a simple question here, I'll respond... :shrug:
> 
> The above snipets are what I was getting at. You say that if you align the filament such that the focus is the best (i.e. intensity is the greatest), it throws the furthest and _also happens to have an oval beam_. This is different from saying that the oval beam CAUSES it to throw better.
> 
> ...


wtf is all this nonsense?


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## greenLED (May 20, 2007)

Atomic_Chicken said:


> Chainsaws are for dolts and mass murderers!


Hey, I resent that! I used to make a living wielding a chainsaw (and I won't say which one of the two categories I put myself in). :nana:


Who cares if the beam is oval, round, square or heart-shaped? Really, guys - what matters is that a light goes on/off when you need it and does what you *need* (not want) it to do. That's all there is to them.


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## SCblur (May 20, 2007)

Minjin said:


> Since you're calling me out in another thread for asking a simple question here, I'll respond... :shrug:
> 
> The above snipets are what I was getting at. You say that if you align the filament such that the focus is the best (i.e. intensity is the greatest), it throws the furthest and _also happens to have an oval beam_. This is different from saying that the oval beam CAUSES it to throw better.
> 
> ...


I'm kinda jumping into the middle of all this, and I don't mean to interrupt an ongoing conversation. However, the explanations I've heard in the past from CPF'ers about the oval spot, had less to do with mathematics, and more to do with the fact that the filament in an incan bulb is not a single point of light, but a bar. They went on to explain that if you want to maximize the throw of any point source of light, the general shape of the light source (the filament 'bar' in this case) is projected forward into the hotspot. Smoothing, or rounding out, the beam would involve taking the filament slightly 'out of focus' to use a photography metaphor. And in doing so, the beam is made more diffuse and round, but some throw is sacrificed. This is, anyway, how I understand it. Albiet, I'm not an engineer, but it makes good sense to me.


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## js (May 20, 2007)

Minjin,

Pretty much what SCBlur said.

However, specifically, you say:



Minjin said:


> You say that if you align the filament such that the focus is the best (i.e. intensity is the greatest), it throws the furthest and also happens to have an oval beam. This is different from saying that the oval beam CAUSES it to throw better.



And in point of fact, I never said that the oval beam _causes_ it to throw better. You're the one who quoted me above, right? Here's what I said:



js said:


> The oval beam is oval by design! If the beam were round, the throw would be less.



My experience regarding the focus of transverse filaments in parabolic reflectors is pretty general. It's completely true that "if the beam were round, the throw would be less." The oval beam is a *design choice*. The SureFire engineers opted for better throw at the expense of beam aesthetics. It was a trade off. It was deliberate. And it goes hand in hand with _better throw_.

A whole lot of people have posted about the oval, squashed beam of the A2 as if it were just an outright flaw, a failing, something that could have been easily fixed if only the engineers at SureFire had just cared enough. The same way that people post about the LED's being on when the incan high beam is on--as if it were an awful black spot on the design of the A2, that SureFire should have been smart enough to avoid.

Not so.

It's just physics, baby, and if you really understand how the A2 gets away with being a dual mode light despite the single ground return path, then you understand why the LED's simply *had* to work they way that they do work.

And just so, if you understand how a line source gets focused in a parabolic reflector, and how the beam responds to different focal points, then you understand that for the best throw, the beam will necessary be oval. The only way to avoid this would be to make a reflector that was itself an ellipse (oval) in cross-section in the horizontal plane (plane of the lens), and parabolic (of varying p's) in cross-section in the vertical plane (in any plane perpendicular to the plane of the lens).

But take a single parabola and make a parabolic reflector by sweeping that parabola around, and there is no way to have both a round beam and the best throw.

The A2 beam doesn't just "happen" to be oval, in other words.

And, I did call you out in another thread, but it was to ask if you were mad at me. Because, usually, when someone takes the time and effort to try to respond fully, honestly, and with some amount of detail to a question you have asked, you at least say "Thanks". That and you getting a chuckle out of my approbation of the Aviatrix because I was somehow too slow to understand that I wasn't supposed to like uC lights (which I never said). But let's leave that to the other thread.


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## Atomic_Chicken (May 20, 2007)

Greetings!

js... technically, the A2 is a dual-mode light despite a single *positive* return-path, not a single *ground* return-path as you stated in your post. However... that's kind of splitting hairs and isn't really germane to the conversation.

I personally think, after examining all aspects of the A2 design, that having the LEDs on while the incandescent bulb is on is actually a design FEATURE... a deliberate design decision meant to address a specific failure mode. In the event that you are using your A2 and the incandescent bulb fails, having the LEDs already on insures that you won't be left "in the dark" so to speak. I can think of half a dozen ways that Surefire could have designed the A2 to turn OFF the LEDs when the incandescent bulb is on, most of which would be simple, reliable, and inexpensive to implement... but the rest of the A2 design is so perfectly thought out and executed that I have a hard time believing that this was an "oversight". As I previously stated, I believe that it was a deliberate design choice - and that that A2 is a better light because of it! 

Best wishes,
Bawko


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## js (May 20, 2007)

Bawko,

OMG! Yes. Sorry. You're right. The LVR switches the negative. Damn. Forgot about that.

Yup. My point is just that the LVR is actually powered up when the LED's are on, it's just smart enough not to fully turn on, smart enough to know when there is that extra resistance in circuit (in the tailcap).


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## Minjin (May 20, 2007)

js said:


> My experience regarding the focus of transverse filaments in parabolic reflectors is pretty general. It's completely true that "if the beam were round, the throw would be less." The oval beam is a *design choice*. The SureFire engineers opted for better throw at the expense of beam aesthetics. It was a trade off. It was deliberate. And it goes hand in hand with _better throw_.
> 
> The A2 beam doesn't just "happen" to be oval, in other words..



The oval beam is a *design consequence* not a design choice. According to you, they leaned the compromise towards throw and did what was necessary to achieve that. I highly doubt that at any point in time, they sat around and said "we need a beam that throws...I know, lets go with an oval beam!" I think you're not seeing the larger picture. My interest in the oval vs circle has nothing to do with the A2. I was just wondering if the statement that oval is better is true, then why aren't we designing other lights such as ones with LEDs to have an oval beam? I'm also very interested from a physics standpoint to know if certain light patterns are optimal. To get the maximum intensity with a parabolic reflector, the filament must be aligned in such a way that it ends up creating an oval beam. I buy that. What I wasn't buying is that an oval beam is any better than a circular beam with the same intensity.



js said:


> And, I did call you out in another thread, but it was to ask if you were mad at me. Because, usually, when someone takes the time and effort to try to respond fully, honestly, and with some amount of detail to a question you have asked, you at least say "Thanks". That and you getting a chuckle out of my approbation of the Aviatrix because I was somehow too slow to understand that I wasn't supposed to like uC lights (which I never said). But let's leave that to the other thread.



I think you have a little too much anger in you today. I hadn't responded to your answer here because I hadn't gotten around to it yet. As for the Aviatrix, it was a humorous post that was supposed to be responded to in a like way. But both of you guys must have got up on the wrong side of the bed. :shrug:


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## SCblur (May 20, 2007)

It sounds to me like you guys are saying pretty much the same thing.


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## js (May 21, 2007)

Minjin,

Yeah . . . I was having a bad hair day yesterday. I'm sorry.

(deep breath) OK. Moving on, yes, I see where you are coming from, and yes, you are completely correct: there is nothing better about an oval over a circle from a physics standpoint:



Minjin said:


> To get the maximum intensity with a parabolic reflector, the filament must be aligned in such a way that it ends up creating an oval beam. I buy that. What I wasn't buying is that an oval beam is any better than a circular beam with the same intensity.



I totally agree with you. Because, like you say, if that were the case, we'd be seeing LED lights with oval beams, and to my knoweldge (limited) there aren't such lights. My Arc LSH has a squarish beam, but that's because the LED die is square and that transfers through the optic and ends up in the beam profile.

Anyway . . . I'm sorry. Please accept my apology.


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## yaesumofo (Jan 28, 2008)

I figured I would revive this thread. I have a question for you guys how have more than one A2 of different colors.
What color are your A2's leds and which are your favorite?

Mine are white (surefire white on my A2 is light purple)

I have seen A2's going for pretty good prices recently. most are green and white. No red no yellow green.
I would love to have a red...I think.

My other question is for those of you who have A2's with color led's is how does the LED color effect the overall color of the Inca light when on?
I assume the Leds stay on like they do on my A2...
Any answers appreciated.

With the distribution of FiveMegas strion socket the A2 has really become an even better flashlight. IMHO 
Thanks in advance.
Yaesumofo


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## Codeman (Jan 28, 2008)

I have a white and a red. The red was horrible - it looked like 3 Olympic rings. The tint and flux were fine, but the rings drove me crazy. I put an Aviatrix in it, so I never tried sanding the LEDs any to see how much that would help.


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## davidra (Jan 28, 2008)

I've had all colors. I've never noticed much of a change in color of the overall beam except when it's right against the wall, but yes, the LEDs are always on when the incan is on.

Fewer reds and Y/G around because they are the most useful IMHO. The beam on the red and the Y/G is ugly, but the utility in a dark room is great. I personally like the Y/G better than any of the other colors; it's just the right dimness for a darkened room and preserves colors to a much greater extent than the red. Blue and green are much brighter. If I were using the LED's for a walk outside, I'd go with white or green, but both are too bright for really dark settings when you just want to see what's where in the darkened house.


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## yaesumofo (Jan 28, 2008)

The White Leds in my example are not very white the tint is just terrible.
I wonder how effective and difficult it is to change them out.
Any recommendations?
I want to stick with white emitters in this unit. 
I wonder if an emitter switch out is possible with the red units as well improving the red tint. If it is too bright is it possible to add a resistor to reduce the output?

Which color is used in cockpits? The light is billed as a light for aviation. what colors is best for this type of use.

For me I am pretty sure a red would be fine.

I have to say that for all of the sophistication I have always been suppressed that the Leds remain ON when the Incandescent globe is illuminated.
It would seem to me that having the emitters switch off would also save a little energy which is now being wasted.
Has anybody worked on this? Is there a way ..a circuit which can be placed on the Emitter ring which could either sense a voltage drop (when the incan is turned on) and use this signal to kill the energy to the emitters? What about a tiny light sensor if it sees the bright light from the globe and again shuts it down.
I suppose this is not terribly important to users of the white emitters but what about colored leds which may tint the incandescent light.
OK I am just sort of typing off the top of my head. The technology which is in the A2 is actually pretty old compared to what is out there today. IMHO it might be time for a refresh of the A2. 

Since we now have new driver technology maybe a more sophisticated system for powering the Leds could be implemented.
IMHO this would be cool. It might even be nice to set up the A2 with some high power emitters.... 3 Crees? Wow! then replace the globe with a red green yellow or blue single LED...sort of switch things around.
OK OK I know I am nuts and I will stop now.
I know I am bordering on heresy here.
Believe me I love my A2 as much as the next guy. I have had mine for years...since the Supreme CO HK Black A2 days a couple of years ago.

I just looked it up and found that I bought my A2 for $119 + $16 for delivery $135 delivered... Not bad really. they seem to be going for about the same these days.
OK I will shut up Please feel free to shoot down my ideas or add to them.
Yaesumofo


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## SilverFox (Jan 28, 2008)

Hello Yaesumofo,

I have run into several pilots who carry A2's. While the most common LED color is red, several have changed over to Y/G saying that in spite of the beam artifacts, it is "more useful" in the cockpit. 

Of course, your mileage may vary...

I view the A2 as having 2 lights in one body. A dim light for low level lighting and a reasonably bright light. The white LED's are too bright for low level lighting situations, and I agree that the tint could be improved upon. 

However, we are involved in a variety of lighting conditions. In the wilderness with no ambient lighting, the Y/G is also too bright, but in the city with lots of ambient light, you can't even tell that it is turned on. There the white LED's are a better choice.

As far as tinting the beam goes, I don't think there is much influence from the LED's once you get past a couple of feet.

Tom


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## MikeLip (Jan 28, 2008)

SilverFox said:


> Hello Yaesumofo,
> 
> I view the A2 as having 2 lights in one body. A dim light for low level lighting and a reasonably bright light. The white LED's are too bright for low level lighting situations, and I agree that the tint could be improved upon.
> Tom



I noticed on my A2 the white LEDs were much brighter than I expected. It seems to me that it would be a simple thing to swap the dropping resistors on the circuit board for a higher value, dimming the LEDs. If you were good with a soldering iron anyway


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## MikeLip (Jan 28, 2008)

<deleted> - doggone CPF freezeups


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## DM51 (Jan 28, 2008)

MikeLip said:


> <deleted> - doggone CPF freezeups


LOL yes, it did just freeze up briefly - for a moment I thought it had gone down again.


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## LED61 (Jan 28, 2008)

I had all colors in square bodies, but sold off the blue one. The blue and green LED´s seem to be the brightest and least useful. For outdoors, the white one is best. For indoors or close up work, the Y/G is the best IMHO.

And, I don´t know if I´m nuts here or what but shining the lights against a white wall, it would seem the red one makes the white beam look brighter.


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## DM51 (Jan 28, 2008)

Red and white are the most useful to me, and blue the least. 

Red is good for keeping one's night vision, and you can do most things using just a red light.

The white is quite "angry blue", but it is workable. A good solution would be to replace one of the white LEDs with a red one, to give a better all-round color balance.

Of course, the various Aviatrix options that were discussed would have given the best choice and flexibility...


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## TJx (Jan 28, 2008)

I picked up a 4 flat sided red LED recently that was a display model for I'm guessing 3 plus years. As I said in another recent A2 thread, I was a little underwhelmed by the LED output. Along came the Sportsman Warehouse sale and I couldn't resist so I picked up another red one thinking I would mod one with blue LED's or something. After several days when it looked like someone else would be putting together another drop-in for the A2 I went ahead and opened the new one and I was amazed at the difference. The new one is what I thought the A2 should be. So, now to the point:
Forgive my 1st attempt at photographing beamshots but here they are for comparison. 2nd picture is the new A2 and Kroma on high red (6.3 lumens)
Is this variation normal between A2's?
Any advice?
Sand them, send it to SF, do nothing it's normal?
Start a new thread with the question?
Thanks!


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## Sgt. LED (Jan 28, 2008)

TJx: It looks normal to me, try sanding lightly. Big help for mine.

In March koala will be making A2 replacement rings!

Luckily A2 UPgrading will become popular on CPF again with fivemega Strion kits and koala LED rings going into Sportsman Warehouse hosts.
:twothumbs


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## WildChild (Jan 28, 2008)

I got last december a round body RED A2 with ringy LED beam like your four sides one. The batteries in it expires at 05-2016 (so it was probably made in 2006). What is the expiration date on the batteries that came with your newer A2?

Beamshot of my red LEDs:





Did someone try to make SF replace the older LED ring for a newer one (for the red A2)?



TJx said:


> I picked up a 4 flat sided red LED recently that was a display model for I'm guessing 3 plus years. As I said in another recent A2 thread, I was a little underwhelmed by the LED output. Along came the Sportsman Warehouse sale and I couldn't resist so I picked up another red one thinking I would mod one with blue LED's or something. After several days when it looked like someone else would be putting together another drop-in for the A2 I went ahead and opened the new one and I was amazed at the difference. The new one is what I thought the A2 should be. So, now to the point:
> Forgive my 1st attempt at photographing beamshots but here they are for comparison. 2nd picture is the new A2 and Kroma on high red (6.3 lumens)
> Is this variation normal between A2's?
> Any advice?
> ...


----------



## TJx (Jan 28, 2008)

WildChild said:


> I got last december a round body RED A2 with ringy LED beam like your four sides one. The batteries in it expires at 05-2016 (so it was probably made in 2006). What is the expiration date on the batteries that came with your newer A2?



Not sure, I replaced them with a new set of BS batteries so I could use them up 1st.


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## BSBG (Jan 29, 2008)

LED61 said:


> I had all colors in square bodies, but sold off the blue one. The blue and green LED´s seem to be the brightest and least useful. For outdoors, the white one is best. For indoors or close up work, the Y/G is the best IMHO.



My thoughts exactly. I sold my Green (too bright IMO) and bought a red. It is ringy, but it preserves night adapted vision. I keep a 4 sided YG on my nightstand, the white in my winter coat pocket and the red in reserve.


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## rhpdchief (Jan 30, 2008)

Back in the early and mid 90's I did almost all of my flying under night vision goggles. We had dim green lip lights that we used to see inside the cockpit. They attached to the microphone boom on our helmets and you stuck out your lip to activate the switch. Goggles are focused to infinity so you had to tilt your head back and peek under them to see your instruments, maps, etc. That was a great light for that purpose. When not flying under goggles pretty much any color light was ok as long as it wasn't too bright and didn't mask anything important such as terrain features on a map.
In my opinion you want to select a light color that fits whatever your primary use of the light will be. There is no best color, just a best color for your needs.
If you want to preserve your night vision a dim light like the y/g is perfect since it won't bleach out the rhodopsin in your eyes. Remember that once your eyes are exposed to a bright light it can take up to 45 minutes to fully dark adapt again. There is also a part of each eye where there are no rod cells present which means that you see better at night if you scan or use off center vision.
If night vision is not important the brighter A2's make sense. 
I don't know why Surefire calls the A2 the Aviator but I suspect its because you can use the bright incan to preflight and the dimmer leds once your flying. To that end I think the color of the leds depends on the type of flying you are doing, the amount of light in the cockpit, and what you need to see with that light.


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## DuckhunterInTN (Feb 2, 2008)

TJx and Wildchild: Check out my thread below. Basically, I had a bright one and a dim one too, sent the dim one back to Surefire with a note and pics (that looked just like those below), they just returned my light and it appears to be no different than before I sent it. Apparently they thought it was operating within specs, but since they did not send any sort of note with it about what they found I can't really be sure.

https://www.candlepowerforums.com/posts/2341541#post2341541





TJx said:


> I picked up a 4 flat sided red LED recently that was a display model for I'm guessing 3 plus years. As I said in another recent A2 thread, I was a little underwhelmed by the LED output. Along came the Sportsman Warehouse sale and I couldn't resist so I picked up another red one thinking I would mod one with blue LED's or something. After several days when it looked like someone else would be putting together another drop-in for the A2 I went ahead and opened the new one and I was amazed at the difference. The new one is what I thought the A2 should be. So, now to the point:
> Forgive my 1st attempt at photographing beamshots but here they are for comparison. 2nd picture is the new A2 and Kroma on high red (6.3 lumens)
> Is this variation normal between A2's?
> Any advice?
> ...


----------



## WildChild (Mar 21, 2008)

Is there some focus variation between MA02 in the same A2? Mine has a little hole in the middle of the hotspot, but by rotating it I can make it much less apparent at greater distance. When I achieve this, there is two vertical bright lines on top and on bottom of the hole, probably a "picture" of the filament.


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## type-x (Nov 8, 2008)

Hi there does anyone know how to remove this (see image below). It seems impossible for me to remove it without the feeling "I'm gonna break it". Thanks


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## js (Nov 8, 2008)

The only way to remove that _*is*_ to break it. The plunger is captive in the metal part of the LOTC.


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## type-x (Nov 8, 2008)

So will the tailcap still be usable after "breaking" the top plastic of? Thanks


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## Sgt. LED (Nov 9, 2008)

Yeah.

You can improvise a reattachment easy enough.


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## js (Nov 9, 2008)

type-x,

Well, Sgt. LED is a lot more confident than I would be about the chances of securely re-attaching the plastic top! I suppose if you found the right glue/bonding agent, then it would be rather easy, but in my case, I just replaced the LOTC. I do that about once a year because I hate the smoothed off squishy rubber feeling of a too-well used LOTC.

In any case, keep in mind that you must reattach that plastic button, because if you don't, there would be nothing preventing the internals from falling out the front of the LOTC housing when removed from the light.


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## type-x (Nov 10, 2008)

Thanks for your inputs Sgt.LED and js. I think Ill just use a cloth to get between the thread and internals and wipe out the old grease.


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## js (Nov 10, 2008)

type-x,

I use pipe cleaners for doing this. They work great--but don't skimp. Use a lot of cleaners for one cleaning session to ensure that you are removing the maximum amount of dirt and grease, and not spreading it to other parts of the light.


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## sygyzy (Mar 30, 2009)

Is there an easy way to replace the LED ring? I don't see it listed as an accessory from Surefire. If an OEM solution does not exist, are there modders that readily provide rings for sale?


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## Sgt. LED (Mar 30, 2009)

There was one but the guy making them disappeared with about 25 grand worth of CPF'ers money and items. May he rot.

Anyway....... Member Koala is very close to releasing his aftermarket ring solution. It's called the Onion ring and it's development thread is on the CBST marketplace.


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## midwestpilot (Mar 30, 2009)

SilverFox said:


> Hello Yaesumofo,
> 
> I have run into several pilots who carry A2's. While the most common LED color is red, several have changed over to Y/G saying that in spite of the beam artifacts, it is "more useful" in the cockpit.



I am a recreational pilot and found the red too bright and harsh for cockpit use, and, theoretically washes out certain markings on aviation maps (though, I never experienced this). I solved by sending two A2s to Milky and he swapped out the red LED's with 3mm Nichia white LEDs (an "LEDectomy" in Milky parlance). No change to the resistors. Now, the LEDs are very dim - perfect for night adapted eyes. I haven't measured their output, but it is something like bright moonlight. In a darkened room, the LEDs light up the whole room enough to walk around and see objects, but not enough to wake anyone up...lol...if that makes any sense. Great mod. I haven't tried the Y/G, but, for now these are the best "pilot" lights I could imagine. Unless I lose them, I don't see myself needing any other lights in my flight bag for the rest of my flying career.


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## greenLED (Mar 30, 2009)

Hey, JJ - something told me I'd find you on this thread tonight.

Have you tried the Y/G LED's? They're *cool* (and DIM relative to the white).


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## wquiles (Mar 30, 2009)

midwestpilot said:


> Unless I lose them, I don't see myself needing any other lights in my flight bag for the rest of my flying career.



+1

Although I am not a pilot, I do travel a lot due to my line of work, and even though I have taken part on lots of passarounds, and I have used and/or built some pretty cool lights/mods, I still have not find anything better for my travel bag than my trusty A2. Since most of the time I am using just the LED's, the batteries last more than a year with normal hotel duty, etc.. Every time I leave at night, my A2 is in my pocket, just in case I need the incandescent light, and even for more mundane tasks as lighting a menu in a dark lit restaurant. 

In fact, during my last trip to Germany last year, a colleague saw my A2 and fell in love with it. Since it was so expensive over there (almost $300), I sold him mine for my replacement cost (about $110 used from Ebay), so when I got home I ordered another one, so I am now on my second A2 :devil:

Will


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## leukos (Mar 31, 2009)

I found the red LEDs to be too bright as well. One 5mm amber LED is just perfect for night adapted vision: :devil:


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## LED61 (Mar 31, 2009)

He!! sweet!! but the answer in a Y/G A2 believe me I know from experience. NOthing beats it in the dark cockpit.


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## Snow (Mar 31, 2009)

wquiles said:


> +1
> 
> Although I am not a pilot, I do travel a lot due to my line of work, and even though I have taken part on lots of passarounds, and I have used and/or built some pretty cool lights/mods, I still have not find anything better for my travel bag than my trusty A2. Since most of the time I am using just the LED's, the batteries last more than a year with normal hotel duty, etc.. Every time I leave at night, my A2 is in my pocket, just in case I need the incandescent light, and even for more mundane tasks as lighting a menu in a dark lit restaurant.
> 
> ...


 
Wow, that was generous! 




leukos said:


> I found the red LEDs to be too bright as well. One 5mm amber LED is just perfect for night adapted vision: :devil:


 
Is that an Aviatrix? How does it work with one LED? Can you get all three to light up?


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## greenLED (Mar 31, 2009)

Leukos needs a :whoopin: for posting that pic.


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## js (Mar 31, 2009)

greenLED said:


> Leukos needs a :whoopin: for posting that pic.



LOL!


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## leukos (Apr 1, 2009)

greenLED said:


> Leukos needs a :whoopin: for posting that pic.


 
Green with envy? You're right, it wasn't very nice, but it is an incredible set up for night adapted eyes. I guess I better not post a pic with all four of my aviatrix lights then....


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## greenLED (Apr 1, 2009)

leukos said:


> Green with envy?


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## nzgunnie (Apr 3, 2009)

I too have an Aviatrix, but with all three white LEDs. 

Such a shame they are not (well have never really been) available. I'd like to get another one with a Y/G led and two white.


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## [email protected] (Oct 10, 2009)

This thread cannot die.





The incan wasn't on in this pic, it shows how well the reflector focuses the light so that the filament lights up.


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## js (Oct 10, 2009)

Nice pics, [email protected]! Thanks.


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## NE450No2 (Oct 10, 2009)

Like many of you I find my A2 to be my most used and most liked handheld.
In regards to the LED colors my first was Y/G.
In packing for a trip to Africa ]Zimbabwe] I "lost it".

I went the next day and bought another, with White LED's.

The white were much brighter than the Y/G. A few days later I found the Y/G A2.

I prefer the Y/G for reading maps and using in the vehicle.
I prefer the White for general purose use.

I use the White LED A2 every night around my place and it is one of my EDC when I leave the property, along with my E1e.


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## NE450No2 (Oct 10, 2009)

I think it was Fast Car that stated that the A2 was a good light a few years ago... And he was right....

BUT it is still a great light today. For a "using, working tool" I find it perfect. The low is great, especially since with the Y/G you have a low low, and the regulated 50 lumens is bright enough, but not too bright for personal use. And because it is "regulated" you get the same usability for the life of the batteries.

There is such a thing as TOO much BRIGHT for normal tasks.

What other light has the features and the quality of the A2?


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## NE450No2 (Oct 10, 2009)

js, again a great post on the A2.

However I have a question for you, and the other A2 "users".

Have you tried the Lumens Factory HO A2 lamp?

I put one in my primary user the White LED A2 and I really like it.

It seems to have increased the throw, but still has useful spill, while not being TOO bright.


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## JNewell (Oct 10, 2009)

Yes...my YG A2 has been back on the nightstand as the utility light for a couple of months now.


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## curtispdx (Oct 11, 2009)

Can I just confirm that people are/have run theirs with RCR123s?


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## Sgt. LED (Oct 11, 2009)

:thumbsup:


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## js (Oct 11, 2009)

NE450No2,

I haven't used the lumens factory A2 lamp, but there was a thread on it in the incan forum, and the impressions were all quite favorable as I recall. But I will almost certainly not get it for myself at this point, as my A2 is my backup EDC, and one of my walking / outdoor exploring lights, and as such doesn't get as much use as when it was my EDC, _and_ it has a brand new LA in it, _and_ on top of that, I have a NIP spare SF LA for it just sitting on my shelf.

curtispdx,

Somewhere in this thread, or in part 1 of this thread, there is an extensive list of links to threads about using rechargeables in your A2. It can be done, but you should read the threads on it before you do it.


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## Solscud007 (Oct 11, 2009)

I have an old 4 flats A2 with white leds. but I rather prefer yellow. should I mod them or try to swap out the whole white for yellow?


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## curtispdx (Oct 11, 2009)

Somewhere in this thread, or in part 1 of this thread, there is an extensive list of links to threads about using rechargeables in your A2. It can be done, but you should read the threads on it before you do it.[/QUOTE]



Thanks to both you and the sergeant! (BTW, I bought a LS20 based on a thread of yours too. Am I a groupie or what? )


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## KiwiMark (Oct 11, 2009)

curtispdx said:


> Can I just confirm that people are/have run theirs with RCR123s?



Hmmm, I am interested in the rechargeable A2 idea as well. I have done a bit of a search and found some info - but much of it over a year old. From what I have read it seems that voltage wise it works fine, though the LEDs will be overdriven - no info on failure time though. Replacing LEDs and/or resistors can correct that problem. The other problem is with fitting the cells - many protected 16340 cells wont physically fit into the A2.

Does anyone have updated info on the fit of AW cells:
Do these news protected cells fit?
What about AW IMR 16340 cells do they fit?

Maybe the best option, how about these? Do they fit? Are they the best way to power the A2 with minimal overdriving? I would presume the run time would be noticeably less with these being only 500mAh - but with a couple of spare set they would be MUCH cheaper since they can be recharged and used over and over. How about it, anyone using these?

I don't own an A2 and I wouldn't consider one if my only option was to run it on primaries. But every one says what a great light it is to own & use and I might keep my eyes out for a good deal on a 2nd hand one if I could buy 6 rechargeable cells from AW and use an A2 for years without spending a fortune on batteries. Please don't try to tell me that primary batteries wouldn't cost all that much - I live in New Zealand and I can't buy cheap 123 cells locally, buying good quality cells online might be cheap for you guys - but add shipping costs and they would still cost me quite a bit.


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## wquiles (Oct 11, 2009)

KiwiMark said:


> Hmmm, I am interested in the rechargeable A2 idea as well. I have done a bit of a search and found some info - but much of it over a year old. From what I have read it seems that voltage wise it works fine, though the LEDs will be overdriven - no info on failure time though. Replacing LEDs and/or resistors can correct that problem. The other problem is with fitting the cells - many protected 16340 cells wont physically fit into the A2.
> 
> Does anyone have updated info on the fit of AW cells:
> Do these news protected cells fit?
> ...



I am one of those who has been running rechargeables on my A2 for a while. I am also the one who reported that the LED's are being over-driven on rechargeables, and I was the one who changed the resistors to protect the LED's. I however remember many who used rechargeables in their A2 and no-one reported a failure in the LED's, so perhaps I was just being overly cautious. 

I used my A2 on rechargeables for several years, until last Summer when an colleague "twisted my arm" to sell him my A2 during a business trip in Europe (I carry the A2 everywhere I travel and daily as my backup EDC). As soon as I got home from the trip I got a lightly used A2 from Ebay, and once again I have an A2 in my travel bag 

Will


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## KiwiMark (Oct 11, 2009)

wquiles said:


> I am one of those who has been running rechargeables on my A2 for a while.



Yes indeed - it was a thread you started that I got a lot of information from. 

So, do any protected 16340 cells fit in the A2?

What do you think of the idea of using the 3.2V LiFePO cells instead of the normal 3.7V Li-ion cells for a much lesser degree of overdriven LEDs? 3.2V is less than 10% more than the 3.0V that fresh primaries are rated at, whereas 3.7V is more than 20% more than 3.0V. That would appear to be a significant difference in strain on the LEDs.


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## curtispdx (Oct 11, 2009)

Okay, I did it. I stuffed the black-label AWs into it (TIGHT fit...) and it seems to be working fine. (For now.)


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## DimeRazorback (Oct 11, 2009)

Can you get it out??


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## KiwiMark (Oct 11, 2009)

curtispdx said:


> Okay, I did it. I stuffed the black-label AWs into it (TIGHT fit...) and it seems to be working fine. (For now.)



'As is' or did you remove the labels first?


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## curtispdx (Oct 11, 2009)

DimeRazorback said:


> Can you get it out??





Took a couple of whacks but they came out. THEN I took the labels off...duh...


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## curtispdx (Oct 11, 2009)

KiwiMark said:


> 'As is' or did you remove the labels first?




With the labels off they fit quite nicely. (BTW, I'm using the Lumens Factory HO bulb in it right now.)


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## mwaldron (Oct 12, 2009)

wquiles said:


> ... and I was the one who changed the resistors to protect the LED's. I however remember many who used rechargeables in their A2 and no-one reported a failure in the LED's, so perhaps I was just being overly cautious.



I don't think wquiles was being overly cautious. When I did LED swaps on A2s I did the math and even at stock CR123's they're being painfully overdriven. An ounce of prevention (in this case $0.05 of resistors) is worth a pound of cure.


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## wquiles (Oct 12, 2009)

KiwiMark said:


> Yes indeed - it was a thread you started that I got a lot of information from.
> 
> So, do any protected 16340 cells fit in the A2?
> 
> What do you think of the idea of using the 3.2V LiFePO cells instead of the normal 3.7V Li-ion cells for a much lesser degree of overdriven LEDs? 3.2V is less than 10% more than the 3.0V that fresh primaries are rated at, whereas 3.7V is more than 20% more than 3.0V. That would appear to be a significant difference in strain on the LEDs.



I have not tried the LiFePO cells, but their lower voltage is a nice plus in this case.

Will


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## js (Oct 12, 2009)

Errr . . . doesn't taking the labels off short both of their negative terminals to the body of the A2? And wouldn't that be bad? I must be missing something!


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## mwaldron (Oct 12, 2009)

AW cells have a label over top of the typical battery "skin" you are thinking of. It's intended to be removed if space becomes an issue.


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## js (Oct 13, 2009)

mwaldron said:


> AW cells have a label over top of the typical battery "skin" you are thinking of. It's intended to be removed if space becomes an issue.



AH! I see. That makes sense.

But, for those who are using other cells--and just in general--please take note that the negative terminal of the battery is THE ENTIRE BODY, less the insulator and positive nipple. So, if you threw two such bare cells in the A2, both negative's would be tied together, electrically, and the bottom cells positive would be tied to the top cells negative, and thus you would short circuit the bottom cells positive and negative terminals--which would be BAD! Especially if it was unprotected conventional Li-ion.

Just FYI.


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## sween1911 (Jul 22, 2011)

BTTT for this epic thread! 

I just scored an A2 just a few months ago, and I carry it everyday in my EDC bag. 

It's funny how the L2 seems better than the A2 on paper, that is until you USE them both. Both have two stages, the L2 is a bit longer, but HEY! IT'S GOT AN LED! WOOHOO! I FOR ONE WELCOME OUR BINNING, TINTING, LED BEARING OVERLORDS! I got an L2 first, and I said to myself, "I've got a 2-cell Surefire LED, no short-lived battery-draining fragile glass bulb to break, I'm good!". 

But then, someone on the Marketplace traded me for the A2. Mine eyes were open to the regulated incan glory. The combination of that piercing throw-monster bulb with the 3 little LEDs that give a nice big long lasting flood is just a killer combination. As much as I want the L2 to be better, the fact that it's mostly flood makes it a great medium range light. But I'll never forget the first night I had the A2. We had a bad wind storm, and I had to chase a beach umbrella around our house in pitch blackness.


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## kramer5150 (Jul 22, 2011)

The thread that doesn't die!!
All heil the regulated incan, direct drive LED !!


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## ebow86 (Jul 22, 2011)

Ready for a bold statement? The Surefire A2 Aviator is the greatest flashlight ever conceved. End of story.


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## LED61 (Jul 22, 2011)

I own five A2´s of different colors including an A2 BK WH, love them all and plan to keep them for life. My favorites are the yellow green and the Blackie. All have skinny sexy square bodies.


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## john-paul (Jul 22, 2011)

I sure do love my A2's!!! I still don't have an "all red" or blue 4-flats. Once I get those I will be in A2 Heaven.


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## calipsoii (Jul 22, 2011)

Oh my goodness, now this is an old thread returned to life!

I'm not even sure if js posts around here anymore, but he did an amazing technical write-up on the innards of the A2, explaining how the LVR and the other components work. I've read that post so many times now I have it mostly memorized.

With SF pulling the plug on this light, I guess it's up to us now to keep our A2's up and running well into the future. :candle:


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## jh333233 (Jul 22, 2011)

"the "only 50 lumens" remark would be a stupid comment for someone to make who has never seen the A2’s beam in person."
Agreed,
Both A2 and E2e have a well-focused beam with almost no spill
All "50 SF rated lumens" flux goes into the hotspot and make it a good lux-rating
i had a 18650 XR-E R2 LED, rated at 180 lumens
with a larger hotspot and large spill,
Proved that lumens arent the only factor you should consider
sometimes even a 50ish incan can do better than 200ish LED

BTW, its a shame that SF cuts incan


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## Brasso (Jul 22, 2011)

I figure 1 incan lumen equals 3 led lumens. At least that's how it appears to me.


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## sween1911 (Jul 22, 2011)

jh333233 said:


> "the "only 50 lumens" remark would be a stupid comment for someone to make who has never seen the A2’s beam in person.


 
Stupid is the word. First time I ever handled an A2 was at a gunshow years and years ago... "Oh, the A2 with just the 50 lumen utility bulb, not good for much I guess except..." it was then that my genius brain looked right into it and turned it on. Yeah, it can get any job done, end of story. From close up low-light work to tactical usage with a gun in the other hand.


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## ebow86 (Jul 22, 2011)

What impresses me the most about the A2 is it's color temperature, pure white.


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## Bullzeyebill (Jul 22, 2011)

Actually when lumens were tested in a certified IS, the main incandescent bulb's output was over 70 lumens sans the 3 LED's.

Bill


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## jh333233 (Jul 23, 2011)

sween1911 said:


> Stupid is the word. First time I ever handled an A2 was at a gunshow years and years ago... "Oh, the A2 with just the 50 lumen utility bulb, not good for much I guess except..." it was then that my genius brain looked right into it and turned it on. Yeah, it can get any job done, end of story. From close up low-light work to tactical usage with a gun in the other hand.


 
Sentence quoted from OP, but i still agree that statement


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## jellydonut (Jul 23, 2011)

I love my A2s. They're not getting sold.

Okay, maybe some in the still sealed blister packs will get sold after a few years..


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## ebow86 (Jul 23, 2011)

Bullzeyebill said:


> Actually when lumens were tested in a certified IS, the main incandescent bulb's output was over 70 lumens sans the 3 LED's.
> 
> Bill



I heard around 79 to 80, but that was with the MA02, the lumens factory offering would more than likely produce even more.


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## jh333233 (Jul 24, 2011)

ebow86 said:


> I heard around 79 to 80, but that was with the MA02, the lumens factory offering would more than likely produce even more.


I dont think LF is as honest as SF
Take SR-6 incan as example
the same battery (2*cr123)
SF= 65 lumens for an hour
LF=120 lumens for an hour
Physics law: conservation of energy
Same capacity and voltage goes same amount of energy
LF is impossible to get a free 55 lumens
so... you understand now

So, LF's MA02 = 120lm for 40min,
if you make it to 60 min, it goes 80lm (the runtime exchange step)
80lm for an hour for LF
and 50lm for an hour for SF
from SR-6, we know that LF overrates(or SF underrates) the SR-6 by almost 80%
so, LF bulb would only be a little bit brighter than SF's bulb

as Same voltage, larger current => larger power
but not by much,
Finally:
i would say LF's MA02 would have only (50*150%)=75 SF lumens


----------



## ebow86 (Jul 24, 2011)

JH333233, I am perfectly aware of the differences in lumenfactory's output ratings as opposed to surefire's, I have been for quite some time. Please see this post http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb...mp-Unfrosted&p=2488236&viewfull=1#post2488236

Your math calculations and figures seem to have little relevance. I have seen this in your previous posts', you attempt to use math and calculations to prove points, points that can be shown and proven without the need for your mathematical calculations, in this case, flawed calculations.


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## Bullzeyebill (Jul 24, 2011)

jh333233 said:


> so... you understand now



That is a condescending remark and can be considered a baiting remark, and elbow86 took the bait, and replied in kind with some disrespectful comments. Both of you, please be respectful in your comments, challenge the post, not the poster. 

BTW jh333233, most CPF members know that LF uses bulb lumens, not out the front lumens in their ratings. 

Bill


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## tobrien (Nov 26, 2013)

was the A2 yellow/green made in a 4-flats version?


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## js (Aug 2, 2014)

tobrien said:


> was the A2 yellow/green made in a 4-flats version?



I'm pretty sure that the answer to this question is no.



calipsoii said:


> Oh my goodness, now this is an old thread returned to life!
> 
> I'm not even sure if js posts around here anymore . . .



I'm still here! I was scarce for the last two years--very busy at work and at home--but that has changed at this point. Well, I'm still busy at work and home! LOL! But I've decided to make time for CPF. I'll be around, FWIW.


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## jellydonut (Aug 2, 2014)

Blast from the past. Now I'm gonna go open my A2 drawer again..


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## tobrien (Aug 2, 2014)

thanks js! I got some really warm white Nichia LEDs in my four-flats A2 now, but i need to try surefire's Y-G LEDs at some point

The A2 in the four-flats variety is so amazing to use (comfort-wise at least) and I cannot see myself ever selling this light


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## walterr839 (Aug 2, 2014)

Love my A2

Four flats LF bulb Rechargables and Calipsoii Nicha 219

Favorite light.

On my bedside table and I hate to say how often I use at night


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## js (Aug 2, 2014)

I too prefer the four-flats flavor of the A2 and find it to be the most comfortable. But the other flavors aren't far behind, ergonomics-wise, though!


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## mcm308 (Aug 15, 2014)

My favorite all time light. I have a round body blue LED that I hammer on and it keeps going. Still original bulb. Probably around 10 years old. I love the 4 flats and when I retire the old blue, It will be replaced with a 4 flat for EDC .

Hey Tucker, the YG is the dimmest of the bunch. Good for VERY dark places and when the lights first go out. It is cool though. I have a 4 flat YG.


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## novice (Aug 18, 2014)

mcm308,
I've never really known what the strong points of the blue led are in an A2. Is it simply a good low-light led that you find more "restful" on the eyes, than, say, a red led? Does it have less chance of waking up somebody in the same room at night? I have a Streamlight Sidewinder that I hope someday to have Milky work on, replacing the main "C4" led with a Nichia 219a, and the blue led with a Nichia 119(?) 5mm led. Why do you prefer the blue leds? Thanks!


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## tobrien (Aug 18, 2014)

mcm308 said:


> My favorite all time light. I have a round body blue LED that I hammer on and it keeps going. Still original bulb. Probably around 10 years old. I love the 4 flats and when I retire the old blue, It will be replaced with a 4 flat for EDC .
> 
> Hey Tucker, the YG is the dimmest of the bunch. Good for VERY dark places and when the lights first go out. It is cool though. I have a 4 flat YG.



Ahhh, I didn't realize YG was the dimmest, but I have heard it's the best for very dark situations, so I probably should've put two and two together haha. Thanks man!


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## Bullzeyebill (Aug 19, 2014)

This is part of a PM post that I sent to js, and thought it would fit here..

_"I recently pulled out my A2, incan, and started comparing to the the high CRI lights I own. I must say that the A2 is heads and shoulder's better, color ID wise. I took it to a small art showing, and it just truly popped out the colors in the paintings that were there."

The essence re my thoughts here, is that the Incan A2, for some of my purposes, can out shine Hi Cri LED's regarding color identification. That said, I have many Hi Cri flashlights. They do very well re color ID, but the A2 is particularly better for me when I am looking for socks in the early AM.. LOL.

Bill


_


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## tobrien (Aug 19, 2014)

nice Bill! so I'm assuming youre primarily referring to the MA02 bulb in your A2 rather than its ring of LEDs?


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## scout24 (Aug 19, 2014)

If I used 50+ lumens to look for socks in the morning, the Mrs. would throw things at me!!!  :nana:


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## cland72 (Aug 19, 2014)

Bullzeyebill said:


> They do very well re color ID, but the A2 is particularly better for me when I am looking for socks in the early AM.. LOL.




This is hilarious. I keep a C2 with a M61L 219 on my nightstand for this exact reason. I don't want to turn on the overhead light and wake up my wife, but I don't want to accidentally pull brown socks out of the drawer when I want black.


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## Bullzeyebill (Aug 19, 2014)

tobrien said:


> nice Bill! so I'm assuming youre primarily referring to the MA02 bulb in your A2 rather than its ring of LEDs?



Yes, the ring of Led's are red on my A2.

Bill


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## LED61 (Nov 3, 2014)

It is ever so nice to be back on this thread. Jim´s information on the A2 and M6 is just awesome, so are the lights.

If one was to do an ideal mod on white LED ring what would that be now ?


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## walterr839 (Nov 3, 2014)

I'ld vote for Calipsoii led ring. Ramping output of one two or all three LEDs


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## LED61 (Nov 3, 2014)

walterr839 said:


> I'ld vote for Calipsoii led ring. Ramping output of one two or all three LEDs




Any thread or beamshots you can point me to ? I have been away for a while. Many thanks


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## tobrien (Nov 4, 2014)

LED61 said:


> Any thread or beamshots you can point me to ? I have been away for a while. Many thanks



Well, Cal's ring isn't still made, however, Koala's "Onion ring" is still available. I have my Onion Ring paired with some really nice, diffuse, warm white Nichia 5mm LEDs and it is the best upgrade I've done for my A2


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## LED61 (Nov 5, 2014)

Might do that myself thx for the tip, you think these are the warmest of the white LEDS ? How do they compare with SMJs ?


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## tobrien (Nov 5, 2014)

LED61 said:


> Might do that myself thx for the tip, you think these are the warmest of the white LEDS ? How do they compare with SMJs ?



SMJs? I'm not sure what that is, but I have some ~3000K Nichias installed, but they're not from Koala


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## john-paul (Aug 17, 2015)

john-paul said:


> I sure do love my A2's!!! I still don't have an "all red" or blue 4-flats. Once I get those I will be in A2 Heaven.




Bumping a very old thread just to say I bought/received what I thought was a round body blue A2 new in box for $96 off of a large auction site. When I opened the box it's actually a 4-FLATS $*&^%^% Yeah!!!!
He does still have 1 listed don't know if its round or flat, but man am I happy right now.


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## cland72 (Aug 17, 2015)

Shut up, that's awesome! Unreal deal for a NIB four flats. Congrats!


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## Bullzeyebill (Aug 18, 2015)

I checked mine, it has three flats. Is it considered a round?

Bill


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## cland72 (Aug 18, 2015)

Bullzeyebill said:


> I checked mine, it has three flats. Is it considered a round?
> 
> Bill



I believe so. From what I understand, there are only two versions of the A2 - four flats, and round.


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## LED61 (Aug 18, 2015)

Beautiful, reliq. A regulated incan beam one of its kind. The complement is an M6 with a PhdM6. Those two will be my forever Incan lights. If you are able try to get yourself a FiveMega strion socket and bulb, it gives the A2 more punch.


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## john-paul (Aug 18, 2015)

I have two F-M strion adapters I already put one in the new A2. Batteries that came in it expired last year, so it's at least a 10 year old light~probably 11.


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## cland72 (Aug 18, 2015)

john-paul said:


> I have two F-M strion adapters I already put one in the new A2. Batteries that came in it expired last year, so it's at least a 10 year old light~probably 11.



Those seem to be as rare as hen's teeth. I saw Kif had one for sale on eBay for $103, but not sure if it sold or not.


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## john-paul (Aug 18, 2015)

I contacted FiveMega couple years back and bought one from him, then another from the marketplace from ??? that parted out an A2 on my request. got the adapter and 3 bulbs for $55.


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## Search (Aug 18, 2015)

I really need to save up again for a couple of 4 flats. They used to come across the MP every other day.. now they're all hiding.


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## LED61 (Oct 15, 2020)

Bumpity bump resurect this thread as it is not in the stickies I don´t think. It could be of interest to the lost incan love out there. Any of you old guard guys still enamored with your A2´s ? I know I am.


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## FPSRelic (Oct 15, 2020)

LED61 said:


> Bumpity bump resurect this thread as it is not in the stickies I don´t think. It could be of interest to the lost incan love out there. Any of you old guard guys still enamored with your A2´s ? I know I am.



Not since my last MA02 bulb died.


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## sgt253 (Oct 16, 2020)

Mine sits on the bedside nightstand for my wife to grab when ever she needs it. Great light. Used it in war and peace. Functions just as a advertised. Will never leave my stable of lights.


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## ma tumba (Oct 16, 2020)

FPSRelic said:


> Not since my last MA02 bulb died.



Adapters and bulbs for a2 still available on the bay from Tad. His handle there is t.customs


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## FPSRelic (Oct 17, 2020)

ma tumba said:


> Adapters and bulbs for a2 still available on the bay from Tad. His handle there is t.customs



I'll have to check it out. Cheers.


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## thermal guy (Oct 17, 2020)

Lumens factory still makes a incandescent bulb for them as well.


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## scout24 (Oct 17, 2020)

LED61 said:


> Bumpity bump resurect this thread as it is not in the stickies I don´t think. It could be of interest to the lost incan love out there. Any of you old guard guys still enamored with your A2´s ? I know I am.



This thread is actually listed in the first post in the below link. I'm still using an A2 four flats once a week or so, and thanks to the generosity of a good friend have a Nichia Onion Ring en route for it. There's a ton of good A2 reading below... 

https://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?199396-The-SureFire-A2-Thread-Index


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## Thetasigma (Oct 18, 2020)

I don't use mine much, but it is the one incandescent that has really stuck around. The perfect color, the regulated output, a warm white onion ring, and that gorgeous glow is enchanting when I do use it. Running a bi-pin adapter from Tad in mine too, has been a pretty good fit so far.


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## Buck91 (Oct 18, 2020)

I have a surefire bulb as well as the HOA2 from LF and find that the HOA2 has less output and a floodier beam. Does that mean the SF bulb is something other than the original MA02?


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## thermal guy (Oct 18, 2020)

I think it just means the stock A2 bulb is rated on SF lumens. My lumens factory A2 bulb is also more floody and not as bright. Guess you can’t beat SF original stuff.


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## bykfixer (Oct 18, 2020)

The A2 was such a great flashlight.


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## thermal guy (Oct 19, 2020)

Isn’t it still the only regulated incandescent?


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## turbodog (Oct 19, 2020)

thermal guy said:


> Isn’t it still the only regulated incandescent?



Maybe...

Willie Hunt did circuit work for a dropin 2d module. Replaces 2d with 8aa and a new high output bulb. soft start, regulation, etc.


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## ma tumba (Oct 19, 2020)

There are phd-m6 regulated battery pack for M6 and also some phd drivers for D mags.


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## bykfixer (Oct 19, 2020)

thermal guy said:


> Isn’t it still the only regulated incandescent?


In stock form, yes.


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## thermal guy (Oct 19, 2020)

Lol. Thank you fixer 😁


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## bykfixer (Oct 19, 2020)

At one point I had the distinct pleasure of receiving a phone call on Friday nights from PK. Man we would laugh and talk about fun stuff like what cars our parents drove in the 70's, being a geek on a surf board and stuff like that. 

He spoke of the Kroma, the U2 and the "only regulated light bulb flashlight" the A2. He said just the idea of it was seen as though he was telling folks who thought the earth is flat that it is actually round. Same folks who said the anti roll head would never catch on. The A2 is a marvel in a number of ways. It was designed strictly for military use (based on a concept by JustRite) so it was built to be very durable. Civilians liked it too. 

The JustRite was a 2aa number with a slider switch and a thumb operated red lens to cover the bulb. It has been said there were some blue lens versions but to my knowledge none remain. The WW2 version was an alluminum body covered with olive drab plastic. The Korea/Vietnam version was solid alluminum with a twist tailcap switch also in future military flashlights.






Top to bottom: 
- SureFire A2 with a green LED array. 
- JustRite aviator with pushbutton twisty switch.
- JustRite aviator with sliding pocket clip switch system.


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## LED61 (Oct 19, 2020)

scout24 said:


> This thread is actually listed in the first post in the below link. I'm still using an A2 four flats once a week or so, and thanks to the generosity of a good friend have a Nichia Onion Ring en route for it. There's a ton of good A2 reading below...
> 
> https://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?199396-The-SureFire-A2-Thread-Index




Great ! May I suggest it also go to the top in the incan forum ? There´s been some questions on incans lately there and this thread has all the answers.


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## LED61 (Oct 19, 2020)

thermal guy said:


> I think it just means the stock A2 bulb is rated on SF lumens. My lumens factory A2 bulb is also more floody and not as bright. Guess you can’t beat SF original stuff.



I find the Fivemega bipin strion socket with the stion bulb is the brightest and whitest iteration of the A2. Safe to use, good runtime. Unless you use extended runs the bulb envelope becomes quite hot and darkens a bit, rendering the brighter output useless. The stock bulb is also great. The LF bulb should not be all that floody, there were a few defective ones I remember the first one I got had that defect and Mark replaced it for me.


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## LED61 (Oct 19, 2020)

Buck91 said:


> I have a surefire bulb as well as the HOA2 from LF and find that the HOA2 has less output and a floodier beam. Does that mean the SF bulb is something other than the original MA02?




here you go all the info on bulbs and beamshots https://www.candlepowerforums.com/v...ts-Stock-A2-vs-LF-HO-A2-Frosted-amp-Unfrosted


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## Bullzeyebill (Oct 19, 2020)

Surefire used xenon/halogen mix in their lamps. This contributed to their longevity.

Bill.


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## Daniel_sk (Oct 21, 2020)

scout24 said:


> This thread is actually listed in the first post in the below link. I'm still using an A2 four flats once a week or so, and thanks to the generosity of a good friend have a Nichia Onion Ring en route for it. There's a ton of good A2 reading below...
> 
> https://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?199396-The-SureFire-A2-Thread-Index



Oh wow, I can't believe it has been already almost 12 years since I started that thread. Time flies! I was a student back then, I used to read so much about the A2 but it was a bit too expensive for me back than - actually DM51 (the old folks will remember him ) gifted me a new SF A2, I will never forget his generosity. 
I somehow had a love and hate relationship with the A2, maybe because there weren't really good rechargeable options without sacrificing the runtime too much and also impacting the lifetime of the LED ring (since it would drive it at higher voltage). Of course there were custom made LED rings that would work with rechargeable batteries. At some point I got rid of the A2. Then many years later I bought it back because of the nostalgia. Then I sold it again, and now reading about it I wish I didn't sell :-D. As I said, it's a complicated relationship. I wonder how much the elusive purple A2 cost now - if they are ever sold...


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## js (Nov 23, 2020)

Wow! I never would have guessed that someone would have posted to this thread in the last five years, let alone this year. Brings back memories.


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## Bullzeyebill (Nov 23, 2020)

I used my A2 15 minutes ago. What a nice beam.

Bill


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## Buck91 (Nov 23, 2020)

Bullzeyebill said:


> I used my A2 15 minutes ago. What a nice beam.
> 
> Bill



My eBay close out tads bi pin setup arrived the or the day. Gorgeous. Just wish I could justify using it.

Ah well maybe one day I will be able to get my money back.


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## FranktheTank (Jan 4, 2021)

Daniel_sk said:


> Oh wow, I can't believe it has been already almost 12 years since I started that thread. Time flies! I was a student back then, I used to read so much about the A2 but it was a bit too expensive for me back than - actually DM51 (the old folks will remember him ) gifted me a new SF A2, I will never forget his generosity.
> I somehow had a love and hate relationship with the A2, maybe because there weren't really good rechargeable options without sacrificing the runtime too much and also impacting the lifetime of the LED ring (since it would drive it at higher voltage). Of course there were custom made LED rings that would work with rechargeable batteries. At some point I got rid of the A2. Then many years later I bought it back because of the nostalgia. Then I sold it again, and now reading about it I wish I didn't sell :-D. As I said, it's a complicated relationship. I wonder how much the elusive purple A2 cost now - if they are ever sold...




anyone who has created such a great link overview as you have "must" have an A2....I hope you buy one again


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## Daniel_sk (Jan 5, 2021)

I have been on an A2 buying spree the last month, actually I bought more than one. Currently I am mostly missing the Koala LED rings, I hope Koala will return and produce more of them.


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## FranktheTank (Jan 5, 2021)

yes, the Koala LED rings seem to be a "must have", let's see when he becomes active again.


In your opinion, are the LED's (LED ring) in the original version more sensitive, or is the life cycle longer than that of the lamp/xenon?


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## Daniel_sk (Jan 5, 2021)

The original A2 LED rings have an energy consumption of about 90 mA, the original MA02 bulb has a draw of about 1550mA. The LED rings will run for about 20 hours, the output is not regulated and they will get gradually dimmer as the battery is drained. The main bulb will have a constant output for 40 minutes, then another 10+ minutes of not regulated lower output. And so it makes sense to use the LED rings to conserve battery power, the lumens output of the white LED in newer A2 is actually quite bright and useful for most situation. If you need more light then you press the tailcap to power on the main bulb (usually if you need to check something in the distance). 
LED can usually run for thousands of hours before they fail. The MA02 bulb will run for maybe 25-45 hours until it needs to be replaced, the soft-start circuit prolongs the bulb life. Replacement bulbs from Tad (3712) have about 20 hours expectancy (as far as I remember) and LF bulbs are similar. Yesterday I powered on the 3712 (~ 1200mA draw) bulb in A2 and I was surprised how good the beam shape is, it's very similar to MA02 and it's much cheaper. I have about 15 of these, so almost a lifetime supply .

The Koala Rings have a trimpot and you can adjust the brightness in 3 levels, the power consumption is 10-15mA on lowest setting, 30-45mA on medium (default) and 95-120mA on high. I think that the medium output should be similar to stock LED ring, but power consumption is 1/3 of the stock LED (so 3x the runtime) and you will also get better LED beam color and color rendering.

I am attaching a picture of the original old A2 manual - SF would actual include runtime graphs in manuals.


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## FranktheTank (Jan 5, 2021)

thank you for the answer, it looks like Tad doesn't make any more lamps (when i am not wrong) so I'll try my luck at lumes factory


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## Daniel_sk (Jan 5, 2021)

You can still find some on eBay from Tad - I can't post links, but you will find it if you search for "A3712". You will get 10 bulbs + bi-pin adapter. As far as I know this adapter can be also used with Streamlight Strion bulbs, which can also be sometimes bought cheap from eBay. But those 10 bulbs will serve you a very long time. I suggest to buy it while it's available. There are also A3718 bulbs available, the difference is higher output but also higher power consumption - 3712 draws 1.2A and 3718 draws 1.8A (more than the stock MA02). I tried the 3712 and I feel like the output/runtime balance is better than A3718. Tad is now only selling the adapters with bulbs, you can't buy bulbs separately because he doesn't have enough of them. I think I even like the 3712 more than the LF bulbs, it's cheaper, beam is cleaner and runtime is a bit longer (output is lower, but not very noticeable in real world).


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## xcel730 (Aug 16, 2021)

Kicking this ridiculously old thread back to life for nostalgic reason.

I have a pair of Surefire A2 that's sitting in my drawer for ages. Both have Tad custom bi-pin with A3712 bulbs on them (so glad I bought a box of A3712 bulbs back in the days when Tad was still around). One A2 has stock YG led and the other one has an onion ring with some High CRI led bulbs (don't recall which one).

Over the years, I have so many flashlights come and go, but I still think the A2 (and Kroma Milspec) are perhaps my favorite and coolest ones.


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## scout24 (Aug 16, 2021)

JS started this thread almost 15 years ago. It's responsible for more than a couple of A2's that have passed through my hands, still have two here. Wonderful lights, I have some Tad's bulbs left, too. Might just break one out tonight since you bumped the thread. 😎👍


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## sgt253 (Aug 16, 2021)

Have one myself (since 2005). Great, classic, innovative light. Will never part company with it. Sits on the nightstand every night ready for whatever may happen. Thanks for the thread bump. 
Best.


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