# Thor H4 vs 100w H3 Driving Lights question..



## guiri (Jul 25, 2007)

Guys, I don't know if this is out of place here or if I can get a reply but I'll give it a shot.

I just bought four driving lights (extra lights) for my Ford Excursion and when I went to try them out I was VERY disappointed with the light output.

THey are 100 watts each and they call them bright white. My headlights are 65w Silvania Silverstars which are also pretty white in color temperature.

I then showed my buddy who hooked them up for me and he wasn't impressed either but I took out my Thor or equivalent which has a 100w H4 bulb in it and turned it on and he goes shi*!

I said, that's kinda what the others should be like (with reservation).

Now, I'd like to know if I was wrong or is it similar to what I should get out of those driving lights or what?

Here's the link to what I got for the truck.. http://www.jfmfgcorp.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=21_22&products_id=54

Is it possible that they hooked it up so that they don't get FULL power? You know, like a dimmer?

They hooked them up with relays that came with them and they are all going into the brights so when I turn my brights, they come on too.

We had to bump up the fuse from 15 amps to 25 because it kept blowing fuses.

They also have another fuse for every two lights in the wires so to speak. The little round glass fuses I think of 15 amps for two lights (I have four).

Any ideas/suggestions and also, am I wrong about the output of the H4 vs the H3?

Thanks

George


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## 270winchester (Jul 26, 2007)

oh man.

so first, 4 driving lights might be illegal in most states, depending on where you are. in Most states you can have 4 lights total in the front, and you can't
turn off you main lights with the supporting beams on.

2nd, 400 watts of extra draw is hard on the alternator. 

3rd, I am a skeptic of anything that calls itself "super white" which in a lot of cases code for a blue-coded bulb, ie it takes away from the output.

4th, the thor's beam is really narrow for driving, it sure is a fun light to see but just look at the difference in reflector size of the thor and your new lights. THe "slim" profile of your lights gives them different beam characteristics than the thor, which has a bigger reflector, both in diameter and depth.

also, if you alternator is up for the job, check to see if the wiring of your light, including hte switch, can handle the current draw. if your bulbs have a blue coating on them, get some real bulbs with clear glass.

that's all I can think of for now.


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## johnny13oi (Jul 26, 2007)

270winchester said:


> oh man.
> 
> so first, 4 driving lights might be illegal in most states, depending on where you are. in Most states you can have 4 lights total in the front, and you can't
> turn off you main lights with the supporting beams on.
> ...



Thats exactly right on. 400W draw for lights for your car seems like it would be a really heavy load on the car. Not only that, the wiring could possibly catch on fire. If it's within your price range, a 35W HID system would kill those 100W bulbs any day. The HID bulbs are known to last a really really long time. Dealer tells me mine should last atleast 10 years. But car alarms that switch them on and off rapidly greatly reduces the bulb's life.


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## aerosimon (Jul 26, 2007)

Not sure if those spotlight covers/lenses diffuse the light, the link pic shows vertical lines through the lenses. This plus the 6" size factor (is the reflector a true 6" diameter) may result in far less CP than expected. Im not sure the thor diameter, but its smooth reflector, so max throw design.. However, when your car is on, it will supply spotties with higher voltage so more overdrive (correct drive).. 

Anyway,, To make a better judgement of the spotty effect, can you simply disconnect the main lights (in your driveway or test location, not on road) and see their contribution alone then make judgement whether they are doing a fair job?

I have a 6.5" sized thor type spotlight (arlec RT 3500, claimed 3.5mill cp), and it uses a phillips H3. I have no gripes with H3 type. I feel it outperforms my neighbours H4 thors with hi/lo.. I compared it to my mates 2 180mm spotties on his Toyota 79series, and my handheld compared well also Most spotty pairs come with one pencil beam, one spread. Let us know how you go..

Worst case, the wiring is in series per pair (if incorrectly done, giving 6V per spotlight.. this will be obvious though..


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## FredM (Jul 28, 2007)

270winchester said:


> oh man.
> 
> 
> 2nd, 400 watts of extra draw is hard on the alternator.
> ...



dude he has a freaking excursion not a honda civic. It probably is a powerstroke with 2 batteries and 400 watts will feel like a cell phone charger.


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## 270winchester (Jul 28, 2007)

FredM said:


> dude he has a freaking excursion not a honda civic. It probably is a powerstroke with 2 batteries and 400 watts will feel like a cell phone charger.




hence why I said:



> also, if you alternator is up for the job, check to see if the wiring of your light, including hte switch, can handle the current draw. if your bulbs have a blue coating on them, get some real bulbs with clear glass.



I have no idea what year Excursion it is, how long and how hard the alternator has worked, what other equipment is also drawing power. I mean, alternators do wear out, right? the Excursion was made between 2000 and 2005, a lot can happen to alternators in 2-2.5 years of service, not to mention 7 years. For all we know the Excursion can be brand spanking new, or it could have performed a lot of heavy duty tasks.

I was merely mentioning that 400w is a lot of power draw. I didn't want to assume anything that has not been told to us. that's all.


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## FredM (Jul 28, 2007)

400 watts is nothing to a car.


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## 270winchester (Jul 28, 2007)

FredM said:


> 400 watts is nothing to a car.



it's nothing to the engine in terms of the power at the drive wheel, but if the alternator is worn or the wiring is not up to deliver 400 watts, you still have a lot of lost light to recover.

courtesy of Wikipedia:


> Electrical/Gasoline-type ignition systems (that can also run on other fuels as previously mentioned) generally rely on a combination of a lead-acid battery and an induction coil to provide a high voltage electrical spark to ignite the air-fuel mix in the engine's cylinders. This battery can be recharged during operation using an electricity-generating device, such as an alternator or generator driven by the engine. Gasoline engines take in a mixture of air and gasoline and compress to less than 185 psi and use a spark plug to ignite the mixture when it is compressed by the piston head in each cylinder.


no matter how powerful the engine is, if the knetic energy cannot be converted to electricity fast enough, the lights will be underdriven. if the wiring is not up to the task, same thing happens. 

Like I said since we don;t know much detail on the vehicle, we can't assume anything, so we should probably consider all possibility until further info on the vehicle in discussion can be provided.

For example, my dad has a 57 Chevy 3100 with an inline 6 that makes plenty of power, but ove the years the wiring had corroded to the point of no return, so the lights were not lighting at all. After we did the wiring again, the lights shone like brand new. the old inline 6 engine is one tough SOB and will keep on cranking for the next 50 years but without wires and alternators the lights simply don't light up very well


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## FredM (Jul 28, 2007)

I stand behind my statement that 400 watts is nothing. If you want to stand by your statement that 

"400 watts of extra draw is hard on the alternator"

I'm ok with that. I just respectfully disagree.


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## 270winchester (Jul 28, 2007)

FredM said:


> I stand behind my statement that 400 watts is nothing. If you want to stand by your statement that
> 
> "400 watts of extra draw is hard on the alternator"
> 
> I'm ok with that. I just respectfully disagree.



wow, so after all my explanation you are fixated on that one sentence. :thinking:

like I said, we have no idea what condition the alternator is in. it could be brand new, or it could need replacement

so answer me this:

suppose the truck is a year 2000 model. And the alternator has seen a hard life of service and is now ready to be replaced.

Is it possible that to a near-dying alternator, 400 watts of additional draw is a significant load on top of what other electrical components are already putting on the alternator?




You offer no help in this thread and your whole contribution in this thread has been to challenge a selective part of one short sentence of what I said. 


so, what do you think George should do?


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## rufusdufus (Jul 28, 2007)

Simply take 1 off the vehicle and power it with Jumper leads direct from battery.
Its attributes will then be apparent.


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## FredM (Jul 28, 2007)

270winchester said:


> wow, so after all my explanation you are fixated on that one sentence. :thinking:



Thats the sentance I disagree with



270winchester said:


> like I said, we have no idea what condition the alternator is in. it could be brand new, or it could need replacement



Its a modern car. If it needs replacement the car will not run.



270winchester said:


> so answer me this:
> 
> suppose the truck is a year 2000 model. And the alternator has seen a hard life of service and is now ready to be replaced.
> 
> Is it possible that to a near-dying alternator, 400 watts of additional draw is a significant load on top of what other electrical components are already putting on the alternator?




If he has an excursion and it runs then my answer would have to be no.


270winchester said:


> You offer no help in this thread and your whole contribution in this thread has been to challenge a selective part of one short sentence of what I said.
> 
> 
> so, what do you think George should do?




First off it was an entire bullet point. Not a part of a sentance and certainly not selective. I was not personally attacking you. The reason I challenge is i totally disagree. 

I think he should either understand the limitations of the lights he bought or go buy 2 HID kits and install them in his lights.


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## johnny13oi (Jul 28, 2007)

I was looking around and it appears that the typical high output alternators that are usually aftermarket and usually put out higher current than the stock OEM ones are 170 amps. 170 amps X 12 V would be a little over 2000 Watts of power. Of course I don't think the alternator would or should be working at its Max output 100% of the time. So 400 Watts from an alternator that can only put out 2000 Watt tops for just lights is somewhat a high power draw to me. I don't know what all the other electronics consume and if you have fog lights too, thats about another 200 Watts if they're 100W each.


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## FredM (Jul 28, 2007)

johnny13oi said:


> I was looking around and it appears that the typical high output alternators that are usually aftermarket and usually put out higher current than the stock OEM ones are 170 amps. 170 amps X 12 V would be a little over 2000 Watts of power. Of course I don't think the alternator would or should be working at its Max output 100% of the time. So 400 Watts from an alternator that can only put out 2000 Watt tops for just lights is somewhat a high power draw to me. I don't know what all the other electronics consume and if you have fog lights too, thats about another 200 Watts if they're 100W each.



Well the fogs are 35-55 watt H10's. All he really has to do is measure the voltage at the lights.


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## roverjohn (Jul 28, 2007)

Maybe one of us could suggest that he measure the voltage drop when he turns the lights on instead of argueing about whether or not an Excursion should be able to drive them which it should with ease. 400 watts is only about 36 amps. His alt should be at least 100 amp output so the only reason that his lights are dim is a crappy blue bulb or a bad connection somewhere. I have a couple of pairs of Hella Super White 55watt driving lights and they are worthless as the blue bulb along with the light blue lens doesn't allow any light to come out. I didn't think Hella would sell anything so worthless so I bought a couple pairs. Even at 80% off it was a waste of $23.


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## Scott Packard (Jul 29, 2007)

I used to run 100-200 extra watts on my OEM Ford and Chrysler cars and always had problems with alternator life. OEM alternators were 65A. The diodes would melt the solder; one or two blew open. I found out later in life I could get a "Heavy Duty" option from the factory, which was meant for police duty loads. My dad optioned for it and it was great while it lasted (on his Buick), but eventually shorted out, then the vehicle had electrical gremlins after that.

Just because a vehicle looks big doesn't mean it was designed to power big loads. When you option up the diodes in the alternator are larger and heat-sinked, and the wiring harness uses larger gauge wiring. You might also get a pulley that spins it at a higher RPM so it'll put out more current at idle. Googling the high-output alternators I came across one page that showed a hi-output alternator would only put out 1/2 its rated amps at idle. http://www.motorcityreman.com/high-amp-alternators-ford-cars---trucks.html

Then there's the wiring. I'd run 12AWG to each individual light, then likely 8AWG from a relay bus bar to ground and to a fuse to the master terminal that comes from the battery. http://www.motorcityreman.com/technical-info.html is a little more conservative with the wiring size. I'd also source the wire from Aircraft Spruce instead of from the local Pep Boys. If I used crimp connectors I'd probably flow solder into the crimps then use heat-shrink tubing for insulation.


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## guiri (Jul 30, 2007)

First, let me appologize for not responding sooner.

I had it set up for instant email notification but I must have screwed something up and when I didn't get any notification I thought I didn't get any replies.

Anyway, I will read through your replies and respond. Thanks for all the answers in advance.

George


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## guiri (Jul 30, 2007)

FredM said:


> dude he has a freaking excursion not a honda civic. It probably is a powerstroke with 2 batteries and 400 watts will feel like a cell phone charger.



First, it is a 2005 Excursion and I got it with around 16,000 miles on it and although it apparently was a rental vehicle (lots of start and stop) it should still be in good shape.

Second, it's single battery only and according to the specs, this is the output "130 Amperes, 1950 Watts"

I run a navigation system/dvd when I drive so that's about it.

George


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## guiri (Jul 30, 2007)

FredM said:


> 400 watts is nothing to a car.



Well, let me just say this. I'm a foreigner and I used to drive a Volvo 740 back in Sweden when I lived there.

I upgraded my lights WITHOUT any modifications and the light was amazing. It was miles ahead of what i have now. In those days things were easier with H4 ONLY, not like todays 9004, 9007, H13 and so on.

I went to the store and got some Rallye H4's at 165/100 which I stuck (or maybe it was 160/100) in the main headlights.

The spoiler in front had room for two rectangular lights where I stuck two 100w H3's and then i got a set of rectangular driving lights (two lights) and put two 130w H3's in them.

Sure, when things kicked in it would dim them for a fraction of a second or whatever but no problem at all. [email protected]

Now the math says I had over 700 watts of brights.

Although they are much better on dimming their lights in Sweden than here in NC, occasionally some moron would leave them on and a quick flick of my brights usually took care of that and probably gave them a quick sun tan.

Now, it's been many years ago but I do NOT remember my volvo lights looking anything like these lights. I mean, I turn these on and I can barely see the difference between the low and high. The only difference I really see is that the light is a little more spread out, that's it.

Also, in the old days, there was no such thing as bluer or more yellow light. It was all watts and end of story. Very simple.

George


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## guiri (Jul 30, 2007)

270winchester said:


> it's nothing to the engine in terms of the power at the drive wheel, but if the alternator is worn or the wiring is not up to deliver 400 watts, you still have a lot of lost light to recover.



That sounds like a lot of loss for a couple of wires.

The lights came with wiring which my buddies used and again, I think the truck and wiring should be in good condition.

I didn't know the wiring could make THAT much difference?

Anyway, I'm taking it this morning to the audio dealer that sold me my navigation system and he's going to look at the wiring.

I'll keep you guys posted.

George


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## guiri (Jul 30, 2007)

rufusdufus said:


> Simply take 1 off the vehicle and power it with Jumper leads direct from battery.
> Its attributes will then be apparent.



Well, I get the impression that they WERE brighter when they were testing them in their shop/garage and simply hooking them up to the battery so I'm sure you're right and I really see no way that these lights can light THAT poorly.

They seem well maid and all that.

They are also made in 7 and 8"

How much light difference would there be if I get a bigger reflector?

George


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## guiri (Jul 30, 2007)

johnny13oi said:


> So 400 Watts from an alternator that can only put out 2000 Watt tops for just lights is somewhat a high power draw to me. I don't know what all the other electronics consume and if you have fog lights too, thats about another 200 Watts if they're 100W each.



So, are you saying that when I drive (I don't know shi* about cars) I ONLY use power from the alternator for my lights, dash lights, stereo and so on?

Nothing else going anywhere else? If so, there should be PLENTY of power to drive 400 damn watts which again my Volvo powered with ease.

Is it really possible to wire these suckers so they only get 6 volts?

That would REALLY explain the loss of power.

I mean, that's what a dimmer does, right?

George


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## guiri (Jul 30, 2007)

Scott Packard said:


> high-output alternators I came across one page that showed a hi-output alternator would only put out 1/2 its rated amps at idle.



I actually did research high output alternators a year ago but I was low on money when I got the lights.

I still plan on doing it one day but don't know when and i was going to take a chance that my truck would drive the ones I bought as is.

I seem to even remember a 450 amp alternator that I found but this morning when looking at the alternators, one site said NOT to believe numbers like that.

In any case, from what you guys are saying, going from the stock 130 amps to 200 should be a big boost.

George


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## guiri (Jul 31, 2007)

*Found the problem*

Alright guys, first I'd like to thank you for trying to help.

I took the truck to a professional today and he told me my buddies had hooked it up incorrectly. He explained but of course, I didn't get it. Something with the relays.

Now the lights are a LOT brighter. I took the truck out to take a few quick pictures so that you can see the difference. I will try to take better pictures with some more trees so that the light has somewhere to reflect and you can see it better.

I don't know if image tags work here but if not, the links to 700 pixel wide pictures are underneath.

Also, these are 100w bulbs. How much difference would there be if I replaced them with four 130w bulbs?

Thanks again..












http://www.totaldesignz.com/excursion/x-headlight-brights-700.jpg

http://www.totaldesignz.com/excursion/x-driving-lights-700.jpg

George


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## FredM (Jul 31, 2007)

*Re: Found the problem*



guiri said:


> Also, these are 100w bulbs. How much difference would there be if I replaced them with four 130w bulbs?




How much are the 130's? I think a huge difference would come with a HID conversion. Cheap ones are a little over 100 bucks.


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## guiri (Jul 31, 2007)

*Not much*

Just a few bucks per bulb..


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## FILIPPO (Jul 31, 2007)

have you got any link of 12V 130W?
I'm interesting...


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## 270winchester (Jul 31, 2007)

*Re: Found the problem*



guiri said:


> Alright guys, first I'd like to thank you for trying to help.
> 
> I took the truck to a professional today and he told me my buddies had hooked it up incorrectly. He explained but of course, I didn't get it. Something with the relays.
> 
> ...




good to hear you got it sorted out. incorrectly set-up relays can be pretty dangerous, so it's great that you had it looked at got it to work.

BTW be sure to look up that local vehicle code. You don't want to be beaming on a local police car with 6 high-beam lights going at the same time if the law does not allow it. Be safe!


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