# Emoli and LiFePo4 cells



## rizky_p (Dec 25, 2007)

Ok i just realized that Emoly and LifePo4 are not the same. Geez! 

But why arent many online dealers selling emoly? it seems to be a good lithium and good capacity too compared to LiFePo4 cells.

Thanks.


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## mdocod (Dec 25, 2007)

Good question, these ought to be available as raw cells from RC hobby sites and stuff.


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## Fallingwater (Dec 26, 2007)

Emoli cells were supposed to be the newest hotness in the RC world, but most people were disappointed. Apparently they can't handle the high discharge rates many models need. Some people keep using them in low power planes, but A123/LiFe cells blow them into the weeds.

Read this thread I opened on RCG some time ago for more info.


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## rizky_p (Dec 26, 2007)

thanks for the link.


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## LuxLuthor (Dec 26, 2007)

Fallingwater said:


> Emoli cells were supposed to be the newest hotness in the RC world, but most people were disappointed. Apparently they can't handle the high discharge rates many models need. Some people keep using them in low power planes, but A123/LiFe cells blow them into the weeds.
> 
> Read this thread I opened on RCG some time ago for more info.



I don't do RC, but it is pretty obvious that the A123's are not necessary for our light hotwires. We don't use anywhere near the amp output of the Emoli, nor need the ultra fast recharging in the field they desire.

With our flashlights, there is an advantage in being able to charge Emoli cells with any of the typical 3.7V Lithium chargers, rather than the different charging requirement of the A123 cells. The Emoli have a higher battery capacity, and a more rigorously constructed can....and as a result are a bit heavier.

You need to bore out a C Mag slightly with a KD Brake hone for either A123 or Emoli cell. If you use them in a D Mag, easiest thing is to buy a segment of white PVC 1.25" pipe. Cut it lengthwise to make a clamshell, & tape it holding your A123 or Emoli cells. You have to get the right length for the mag you desire since they are longer than a typical "D" cell. You can use battery magnets to hold the cells in contact with each other if more than one in your light.

Emoli's became harder to find because several of the individuals who were selling them as new, unused (not welded or soldered) cells were shut down when manufacturer discovered they were being diverted for RC unintneded use, instead of in Milwaukee V28 drill packs. This posts discusses it.

I had bought 10 from this guy who was selling them as individual new cells before he got shut off. So the biggest issue for us flashlight modders is getting the cells in good condition. There have been some selling them to our community after finding them on EBay. They are in varying degrees of having been used/abused/soldered/welded, so take that into account.

You can buy them on Ebay as the V28 Battery Pack, such as this listing and take it apart yourself.

Here is a pdf several page testing resource for the Emolis.


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## Fallingwater (Dec 26, 2007)

Do they have the legal right to shut down people selling parts of their products?
That seems a bit weird.

I agree on A123 cells being overkill for most flashlights, of course.


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## LuxLuthor (Dec 26, 2007)

Fallingwater said:


> Do they have the legal right to shut down people selling parts of their products?
> That seems a bit weird.
> 
> I agree on A123 cells being overkill for most flashlights, of course.



When I spoke with the guy from Big E-RC, after he stopped selling them, he had been getting them "under the table" through a manufacturing distributor with a specific intended end product. Since they were pristine, new cells, Emoli felt they had legal exposure if anything went wrong--espeiclally when they heard these were being back-channeled to RC guys who abuse the hell out of their batteries. 

Essentially if they didn't cut off this channel, they would have been seen as implicitly endorsing their use/abuse by the RC crowd. In the Milwaukee V28 packs, there is a PCB that protects them against overcharging/discharging and does balance charging...so if people rip them out of that pack, at least they had some defeated safety measures in place that would be a liability defense.


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## Northern Lights (Dec 26, 2007)

Jim Jones and I have found emoli and A123 particuliarly useful for high amp bulbs e.g. 5761 and 64430 when a small diameter light is desired and there are other advantages of the "safe' lithium. These two cells can handle a lot of amps and do not drop voltage, A123 discharge curves on the 5761 look similiar to regulated versions. That means a bright steady output. Jim has a lot of posts about his mods and sells some mods with these batteries, he also sells some emoli and A123 cells loose. 

A 3C size 5761 powered by A123 is my favorite hot wire at the moment.


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## SilverFox (Dec 26, 2007)

Hello LuxLuthor,

I have to agree with Northern Lights. I just finished testing some of the 18650 A123 cells and I am very impressed with their performance. In addition, they are safe to use. 

To put them to the test, I charged them like a normal Li-Ion cell. After a series of test runs up to and including discharging at 20 amps, I ran another test at 1 amp and observed no degradation at all. 

The kid gloves are off with these cells. They can take abuse similar to what we put NiMh cells through, and they just keep coming back for more.

In multi cell applications, these cells provide performance and safety without the added complexity of protection circuits. Unfortunately, they suffer from fairly low capacity.

I might also add that Emoli has been non cooperative in providing me cells for evaluation. They may consider it, once they have visited my factory to evaluate my battery production facilities... They are very protective of who gets their cells.

Tom


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## Northern Lights (Dec 26, 2007)

The BC-6 I have been happy with and posting about has charging programs specifically for A123, Lipo, and li-ion; you can change the amps and voltage paramaters and make custom presest for packs in all 6 chemistry modes that the charger handles too. lipo is 3.7 so should handle the emoli from what I read. I charge my light with a jack, no series charging problems with these cells, at 5 amps! I get back into service in about 15 minutes. That is quick.


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## Fallingwater (Dec 27, 2007)

LuxLuthor said:


> Essentially if they didn't cut off this channel, they would have been seen as implicitly endorsing their use/abuse by the RC crowd. In the Milwaukee V28 packs, there is a PCB that protects them against overcharging/discharging and does balance charging...so if people rip them out of that pack, at least they had some defeated safety measures in place that would be a liability defense.


I don't get it.
If a liability issue popped up, couldn't they just go for the "it's your own damn fault" line, since the user has disabled the factory safety circuitry?
I don't see how they could be held liable for a user who uses a pack in a way it was never intended to be used.
Car manufacturers aren't held liable if the end user installs a huge turbocharger, blows the engine and smashes the car against a tree. And they must know that many end users do just that...


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## LuxLuthor (Dec 27, 2007)

Fallingwater said:


> I don't get it.
> If a liability issue popped up, couldn't they just go for the "it's your own damn fault" line, since the user has disabled the factory safety circuitry?
> I don't see how they could be held liable for a user who uses a pack in a way it was never intended to be used.
> Car manufacturers aren't held liable if the end user installs a huge turbocharger, blows the engine and smashes the car against a tree. And they must know that many end users do just that...




Two things. 

Welcome to the legal nightmare of America, where frivolous suits are handed out like candy corn.

These were not "former pack cells" where people were defeating safety measures. The cells I got were new, individual cells. They were supposed to have gone into packs with safety protection PCB's, only they were diverted by the now shut down distributor into the Big E-RC individual cell sales primarily to RC users.

I'm not saying the A123 cells aren't also great, but this topic was started by someone asking about the Emoli in particular....which have a more durable can, higher mAh capacity, normal Li-Ion/LiPo 3.7V nominal charging protocol, and virtually the same size as their A123 counterparts. The higher amp output of the A123 is just not needed by the flashlight modder, so that's not a reason to promote them selectively. It's more a question of availability...but there are plenty of Emoli V28 packs being sold on EBay.


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## Northern Lights (Dec 27, 2007)

One difference between emoli and A123 was the nominal voltage. A123 was very good with the 5761 but a soft start is needed with the emoli., Two A123 are 10 mm shorter than two emoli and allowed the room for a charging jack in the body. The difference in amp output was never part or consideration in the mods I have made. Very similiar, yes, but the differences are not necessarily negligeable, depends on what you set out to do. I agree with Lux, it depends on what you want to do, both cells have different good qualities with some interchangeability.


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## Fallingwater (Dec 27, 2007)

LuxLuthor said:


> Welcome to the legal nightmare of America, where frivolous suits are handed out like candy corn.


Yeah, your country is sort of famous for this stuff, but I thought there might have been a tiny bit of sense in all the madness 



> These were not "former pack cells" where people were defeating safety measures. The cells I got were new, individual cells. They were supposed to have gone into packs with safety protection PCB's, only they were diverted by the now shut down distributor into the Big E-RC individual cell sales primarily to RC users.


So I take it that if the distributor went to buying finished battery packs, ripping them open and selling the individual cell the whole issue wouldn't exist, right?
I'm not asking from a practical point of view, as doing that would have probably caused costs to go up too much. I just want to understand the legal issue.



> I'm not saying the A123 cells aren't also great, but this topic was started by someone asking about the Emoli in particular....which have a more durable can, higher mAh capacity, normal Li-Ion/LiPo 3.7V nominal charging protocol, and virtually the same size as their A123 counterparts. The higher amp output of the A123 is just not needed by the flashlight modder, so that's not a reason to promote them selectively


Right. If it wasn't for the hugely increased safety, I don't think anyone in the flashlight world would care about A123/LiFe. Not at the current energy density, anyway.


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## LuxLuthor (Dec 27, 2007)

Fallingwater said:


> Yeah, your country is sort of famous for this stuff, but I thought *there might have been a tiny bit of sense in all the madness*



Fat chance. The legal community writes the laws to protect their own self interests, and are "in bed" with the national Democratic party, so nearly impossible to enact any serious legal reforms or cutbacks in their power.



Fallingwater said:


> So I take it that if the distributor went to buying finished battery packs, ripping them open and selling the individual cell the whole issue wouldn't exist, right?
> I'm not asking from a practical point of view, as doing that would have probably caused costs to go up too much. I just want to understand the legal issue.


I think ripping open a V28 pack which can be obtained readily at hardware stores, EBay, online tool stores, and selling them would not have allowed Emoli to find the raw cell distributor to cut them off...but if there is a USA/Canada online "storefront" that is selling their products, Emoli could easily hire an attorney and shut them down.

Major corporations like McDonalds, Disney, Apple routinely pursue legal action against people/small companies who are doing things with their corporate name/image/products that they dislike. Who knows if Emoli would bother Big E-RC.com if they started selling them from packs.

The biggest issue with getting either Emoli or A123 cells from used packs on Ebay, etc. etc., is the reasonable chance that these are end-life packs being dumped with very few cycles left on them. You just don't know one way or the other....and they are not cheap.


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## ICUDoc (Dec 28, 2007)

SilverFox said:


> Hello LuxLuthor,
> 
> I have to agree with Northern Lights. I just finished testing some of the 18650 A123 cells and I am very impressed with their performance. In addition, they are safe to use.
> 
> Tom



SilverFox I thought that A123 didn't make 18650 sized cells?
It was my impression that these are LiFePo4 chemistry but made by a different company or companies. The trick is to get the chemistry you want: F series cells have a 5C discharge, FP are 20C. A123s are different.
I have used the 26650 A123s a lot in RC and they are unbelievably good. I routinely draw 40 to 60 amps for minutes at a time and no problems. Some setups are 1500-2000 watts (peak) on 10 cells!!! Or more!! They recharge fast and seem to handle deep discharge just fine (so far). And unlike the LiPolys a decent crash won't make them blowup.
Edit: Ooops- Just saw your post elsewhere- as usual SilverFox you know all this already!!


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## SilverFox (Dec 28, 2007)

Hello David,

A123 finally released their 18650 sized cells. I believe the Black and Deker VPX? battery packs have 2 cells in each of their tool battery packs.

They have the same performance as the 26650 cells, but their capacity is only 1100 mAh.

Tom


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## rizky_p (Dec 28, 2007)

...


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## ICUDoc (Dec 29, 2007)

Hi Tom
Excellent I'll chase it up and see what I can find!


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## SnowplowTortoise (Jan 30, 2008)

If I understood correctly, Northern Lights is writing that you can charge these cells in a pack without balancing? This would be a big advantage in that you could use very cheap lithium pack charger. I'm very attraced to the safety aspect but am not ready to pony up the cash for a good balance charger.

Also, hope this isn't too far off topic, but FYI, Home Depot is dumping the B&D VPX combination charger and 1 cell pack for $25. Not a terrible deal for two 18650 A123s and a dedicated charger.


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## SnowplowTortoise (Jan 30, 2008)

duplicate post


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## Northern Lights (Jan 30, 2008)

SnowplowTortoise said:


> If I understood correctly, Northern Lights is writing that you can charge these cells in a pack without balancing? This would be a big advantage in that you could use very cheap lithium pack charger. I'm very attraced to the safety aspect but am not ready to pony up the cash for a good balance charger.
> 
> Also, hope this isn't too far off topic, but FYI, Home Depot is dumping the B&D VPX combination charger and 1 cell pack for $25. Not a terrible deal for two 18650 A123s and a dedicated charger.


I found in www.rcgroups.com it is common to charge emoli and A123 in series. The bc-6 charger allows both series and tap charging. I built a number of lights using charging jacks with emoli and A123. works well. I found that AW c-cells would charge in series because the PCB shut them down if they charging got out of balance too.


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## SnowplowTortoise (Jan 30, 2008)

I thought I understood, but now I'm less sure. The BC-6 is a $170 balance charger. I was wondering if it is okay to use a dumb $20 Lipo pack charger for something like a 3s1p setup. I'm sure balancing improves cell life, but if I would only get 500 cycles instead of 2000, I think I could live with that. Or is the effect more dramatic?


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## Northern Lights (Jan 30, 2008)

SnowplowTortoise said:


> If I understood correctly, Northern Lights is writing that you can charge these cells in a pack without balancing? This would be a big advantage in that you could use very cheap lithium pack charger. I'm very attraced to the safety aspect but am not ready to pony up the cash for a good balance charger.
> 
> Also, hope this isn't too far off topic, but FYI, Home Depot is dumping the B&D VPX combination charger and 1 cell pack for $25. Not a terrible deal for two 18650 A123s and a dedicated charger.


 
Why balance in the first place?
Because Liions and Lipo when out of balance do horrible things including bursting into flames. Emoli and A123 do not do this. They charge up similiar in results to NiMh. If you get a bad cell it very well may be out of balance and you will notice your pack voltage is down. But you do not get the problems of the other two chemistries, same is true with NiCd or NiMh packs, you can get bad cells. A meter will tell you that. So charging in balance does equal everything out but to charge a light, you are charging a pack in series. It can be done with emoli and A123 but yes the problems that plague any pack design can affect these but it is not a hazard. That is the only difference. So if your Lipoly or Lithium charger can be set to the correct voltage and amperate then use it. 
The bc-6 charger can charge liion, FePo4, lipoly, Pb, NiCd, NiMh chemistries. It replaced 8 chargers I use so in the end the$170 was well spent in that I can charge anything I have at a match rate and have good control and analysis of my packs. 
If you found a single use charge that works, use it.


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## SnowplowTortoise (Jan 30, 2008)

Thanks NL. That's definitive. Sorry if I diverted the thread a bit.:shrug:


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## LuxLuthor (Jan 31, 2008)

I just want to point out that EVERY pack that is commercially made, and every post I have seen by respected members at the RC Groups forum all put balance taps when they make their packs out of either A123 or Emoli type cells. It is obviously not as crucial with these safe chemistry cells, but I would always make a pack with balance taps setup in them.

Here is my other thread showing all these various types of safe Lithium chemistry cells in 18650 sizes with photos. None of these cells have individual protection limits for overcharge/discharge/amp output.


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## Northern Lights (Jan 31, 2008)

I frequently check my batteries to make sure they are charging closely, this is something you cannot ignore. Most of the time I can continue to charge them in series in a light with a jack. On some occaisions I have had to open the light and tap or charge singularly to bring them up to par. One good reason to have a charger that can do both. I also believe by logic deduction, not tried and true, that the more batteries the greater the probablility of imbalance. With two or three batteries in a light it is aparent that these cells work out ok.
AW cells with PCB safety, emoli and A123 as Lux points out have some safety in them but they will and do get out of balance; and when discovered I bring them back into line.

All battery packs of all chemistries can get out of balance. The worst I have encountered are NiMh that have parallel portions. Silverfox had a couple of good threads on that and brilliantly described the problems I have with one parallel pack of Powerex AA.


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## LuxLuthor (Feb 1, 2008)

I was more directing the balance charging tap installation at when I make a pack of Lithium cells, that remain inside of a shrink-wrap (similar to RC packs they are making like in this thread).

With single cells it is pretty easy to check them and make adjustments in voltage as needed. Like Northern Exposure is saying, there is also a much wider margin of tolerance with either A123 or Emoli types of safe chemistries.


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## SnowplowTortoise (Feb 1, 2008)

It's okay, it's not okay, it's okay again - I'm getting off this roller coaster! I think I'm going to play it safe and charge the cells indivually. I just bought a 1.5a single cell charger from BS. Hopefully that will keep me out of trouble. Thanks again Lux and Northern Lights.


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## Germ (Feb 7, 2008)

SnowplowTortoise said:


> It's okay, it's not okay, it's okay again - I'm getting off this roller coaster! I think I'm going to play it safe and charge the cells indivually. I just bought a 1.5a single cell charger from BS. Hopefully that will keep me out of trouble. Thanks again Lux and Northern Lights.


 
SnowplowTortoise, I seem to be following you around  Do you have a link to the charger you got at batterystation?

Finding a cheap charger for A123's is hard. Right now the only ones I now of are the batteryspace chargers that are around $20.

I'm concerned about balancing too. If I get a 6v 2 series batteryspace charger and a cell gets out of balance what do I do?

Northern Lights, you said 2 Emoli's were 10mm longer than 2 A123's? I'm taking it you can't go by the names where a 26700 Emoli should be 67mm and a 26650 should be 65mm. So by name 2 Emoli's should be only 4mm longer than 2 A123's. I was thinking 4mm was not much to consider when choosing which cell type to use, but 10mm is a bit more than 3/8 inch which makes me like the A123's even more.


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## Northern Lights (Feb 7, 2008)

Germ said:


> Northern Lights, you said 2 Emoli's were 10mm longer than 2 A123's? I'm taking it you can't go by the names where a 26700 Emoli should be 67mm and a 26650 should be 65mm. So by name 2 Emoli's should be only 4mm longer than 2 A123's. I was thinking 4mm was not much to consider when choosing which cell type to use, but 10mm is a bit more than 3/8 inch which makes me like the A123's even more.


 
JJ-measured the tabs and that is in his post: 
A123:
with tabs = 67mm
without tabs= 65.15mm

click here, CPF post on it:
*"Cell Specifications:
*Cell Type: ANR26650-M1
Model No. AS400059-001
Nominal operating Voltage 3.3V
Dimensions: 26mm x *66.5mm ht. including tabs* 
Cell weight 70g
Assembly Weight 72g including tabs"

I take the tabs off and use the basic battery.

Name gives me:
26650: 26mm diameter, 65mm long, 0= round
26700: 26mm diameter, 70mm long, 0= round
by name 2 Emoli's should be only 10mm not 4mm 
difference is 5mm x 2 = 10 mm. 

specs: 
http://www.swift-tuning.com/EMOLI_26700A.pdf =70mm

A123 =65.15mm

Shown here in the picture with tabs but specs show basic size; intersting that they assume you know the difference.

http://buya123systems.com/prdeki.html

I am glad you asked, it is so discouraging to have a project detailed only to find that your measurments are off when all the parts arrive and you cannot get it together!


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## Fulgeo (Feb 7, 2008)

Germ,

I think the Emoli are 26700 and the A123 are 26650 cells.

Emoil are 26700 thats 26mm diameter x 70mm length. I think the last 0 is shape?

A123 are 26650 thats 26mm diameter x 65mm length.

70mm-65mm=5mm difference per cell.

I find that sometimes cell definitions vary. Some cells actually have a 26.2mm diameter etc. The variation from the cell definition thou is just a fraction of a millimeter rounded down.


Errp looks like Northern Lights types faster than me


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## Germ (Feb 7, 2008)

:duh2: Duh, thanks for the clarification. I was keying on the 67 in 26700. Now I need to fix some other dumb posts I've made.

With a 10mm difference between 2 A123's and 2 Emoli's I'll definately try to use the A123's.


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## Northern Lights (Feb 7, 2008)

Germ said:


> :duh2: Duh, thanks for the clarification. I was keying on the 67 in 26700. Now I need to fix some other dumb posts I've made.
> 
> With a 10mm difference between 2 A123's and 2 Emoli's I'll definately try to use the A123's.


 
Size matters...

But in many applications so does, amps, watt hours, discharge curve and Max Volts. 

The deterimining factor of what cell to use is which one best fits your desired application, what part of the applications is most critical or most important to you. In the case of the emoli and A123 around the 5761 bulb the differences are very slight. As I wrote one person there are no negatives but one cell had a more postive attributes to list. 

In your case, from the quote I see the 10 mm is most important so the A123 is best. If you needed voltage overhead to use a hot driver then probably the Emoli would have been best. 

This is what is fun about modifing and builbing hot wire lights. It is like high performance machines, so many variations.

Fun, Huh?


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## Germ (Feb 7, 2008)

From what you and others have told me I'm thinking A123's over Emoli's for a few reasons:

1. flatter discharge rate
2. faster recharge if you have the right charger
3. slightly smaller in diameter?
4. lighter
5. ability to power the 5761 lamp without needing an NTC thermistor
6. available as single cells with consumer looking packaging from Hyperion
7. popular in the RC world and used in hybrid and electric cars = more likely to catch on?
8. shorter 

Did I miss any?

Disadvantages when compared to Emoli:

1. need a new charger, inexpensive chargers are hard to find
2. backwards polarity (case is positive), this probably isn't a big deal
3. high discharge rate is kind of scary in case of a short, the Emoli may be no picnic if shorted either
4. lower mAh rating, but from what I understand this doesn't effect runtime as much as you would think
5. lower initial voltage, but tends to catch up to Emoli due to it's flat discharge rate

Please correct me if I'm wrong on anything.

What about my question on what to do about balancing 2 cells if I get the batteryspace 6v 2 series charger?


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## SnowplowTortoise (Feb 7, 2008)

Germ, nice summation. I think the consensus on the charging was that all packs need balancing. With these new "safe" lithium chemistries, not balancing the cells means you risk damaging the cells but do not have to live in fear of an impromptu pyrotechnics show. That said, I think the best cheap route is to charge the cells individually.


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## Northern Lights (Feb 8, 2008)

Germ said:


> From what you and others have told me I'm thinking A123's over Emoli's for a few reasons:
> 
> 1. flatter discharge rate
> 2. faster recharge if you have the right charger
> ...


 
You got it. But I do not charge these in balance, emoli or A123 because balancing is for a li ion and li poly problem they do not have! Balancing only means you are charging each cell independent of the other. If you charge the bad boys in series and they are greatly in difference they may ignite. That is the reason for balancing. While balance charging the charger keeps the cells near equal because they are still in series with each other. So at some point one is charging, the other is not, so to speak. It takes longer and for no reason with the emoli or A123. Balancing does insure longer battery life and a solid full charge.


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## Germ (Feb 8, 2008)

Does anyone know how many charge cycles the Emoli's are good for? I've read the A123's are good for 1000 to 1500 cycles.

If someone would be so kind I'd love to see simple comparison runtime and voltage graphs of Emoli 26700's, A123 26650's, AW's C cells, and Eneloops running the ROP high lamp. Please make the curves fat with different linetypes as I'm partially colorblind :duh2:


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## Fulgeo (Feb 8, 2008)

Just ordered a DeWalt Heavy Duty 36-Volt Lithium-Ion Battery Pack and a Milwaukee V28 Lithium-Ion Battery-Pack off of Amazon. The DeWalt pack contains (10) A123 cells and the Milwauke pack contains (7) Emoli cells. Going to try and answer that runtime question. 

I have experienced the following on new Sanyo Eneloops:

ROP Hi lamp: 25 minutes run time....23 minutes of solid light....1 minute of "hey is this thing getting dimmer" then about 1 minute of slow fade to black.

AW-1111 G4 bi-pin lamp: 32 minutes run time.....30 minutes of solid light....1 minute of slightly dimmer then the 1 minute of slow fade to black.

The flashlights are just new 2D maglite stock. No resistance mods.

Want to say it again. Love the AW-1111 lamp over the ROP Hi lamp!


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## LuxLuthor (Feb 8, 2008)

Just so everyone is clear, basically Northern Lights and I are in agreement that if you are using individual A123 or Emoli cells, balance charging is not a significant concern....but that assumes you periodically check the individual voltage of the cells, and if getting out of balance, just individually charge each cell which will top them off at same level--in effect, balancing them.

My recommendation for having balance charging leads (vs. serial charging) is when cells are welded/soldered together and inside a shrink wrap that cannot be tested for individual cell voltage, and cells individually charged on occasion if getting out of balance.


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## Northern Lights (Feb 8, 2008)

LuxLuthor said:


> Just so everyone is clear, basically Northern Lights and I are in agreement that if you are using individual A123 or Emoli cells, balance charging is not a significant concern....but that assumes you periodically check the individual voltage of the cells, and if getting out of balance, just individually charge each cell which will top them off at same level--in effect, balancing them.
> 
> My recommendation for having balance charging leads (vs. serial charging) is when cells are welded/soldered together and inside a shrink wrap that cannot be tested for individual cell voltage, and cells individually charged on occasion if getting out of balance.


Agreed!:thumbsup:​​


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## Fulgeo (Feb 9, 2008)

Was wondering guyz, if I had a charger that could charge (2) A123 cells in series like this one;

http://www.batteryspace.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWCATS&Category=1263

and I just rotated the individual cells front to back between discharge cycles would this circumvent the ballance issue?


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## SilverFox (Feb 9, 2008)

Hello Fulgeo,

Welcome to CPF.

No. Rotating the position in a series arrangement will not balance the cells.

Tom


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## Fulgeo (Feb 9, 2008)

Greetings SilverFox,

Thanks for the quick reply!

I guess I will just buy the http://www.batteryspace.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=3285 charger to charge the A123 cells individually for now. I have a Triton charger but need a charge cutoff adapter like http://www.infinity-hobby.com/main/product_info.php?products_id=1877 to correctly charge the A123 cells. I could also just get it over with and purchase the Cellpro.

Once again thanks for the info! :thumbsup:


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## SilverFox (Feb 9, 2008)

Hello Fulgeo,

Another option is to use your Triton with the 3.6 volt setting. It will charge your A123 cells to 4.1 volts, but I have been doing that for a while now without problems.

Tom


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## Probedude (Feb 9, 2008)

Tom,
I just received this charger and batteries from All-Battery.

http://www.all-battery.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=1877

Of the 6 qty LiFePO4 RCR123A's I received, 2 were very low in voltage as delivered.

One was 1.7V, the other 0.7V.

Should I even bother trying to charge and use these two cells?

I'm not sure why I bothered ordering from them given my bad experiences with their NiMH cells.

Dave


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## SilverFox (Feb 9, 2008)

Hello Dave,

Hmmm... that's pretty low voltage. Your 1.7 volt cell may recover, but the other one may have difficulties.

This chemistry needs to be kept above 2 volts, with 2.5 or 3 volts preferable. It can handle an excursion to 0 volts, but if it stays at a low voltage it ruins the cell. The idea is to quickly recharge if you happen to over discharge.

You should mark the cells and give them a cycle or two to see if they will come back. Sometimes they do, and sometimes they don't.

Tom


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## Probedude (Feb 10, 2008)

SilverFox said:


> Hello Dave,
> 
> Hmmm... that's pretty low voltage. Your 1.7 volt cell may recover, but the other one may have difficulties.
> 
> ...



Thanks Tom,
I didn't know how LiFePO4's held up to low discharge voltages. I'll cycle it a few times on the CBAII and see how it works.

Overall is the self discharge low for LiFePO4's like regular lipos and for storage is the 50% level also recommended?

Dave


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## SilverFox (Feb 10, 2008)

Hello Dave,

The self discharge rate is low and most people I know are storing them fully charged. I am not sure if there is a general consensus on the proper storage voltage.

Tom


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## BigusLightus (Feb 10, 2008)

Hey Germ,

In your post #35 above in item #7 you mention Hyperion offering cells. Do you have a link you could post?

Thank you,
BigusLightus


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## Germ (Feb 10, 2008)

BigusLightus said:


> Hey Germ,
> 
> In your post #35 above in item #7 you mention Hyperion offering cells. Do you have a link you could post?
> 
> ...


 
Sure thing. Aircraft800 gave these two links in another thread:

http://www.aircraft-world.com/shopexd.asp?id=5041

http://www.x-flight.hk/e/products/productdetails.asp?ic=HP-LA2300-L

The $16.50 each at aircraft-world.com seems reasonable enough. If you try the Hyperions be sure to let us know how it goes.

jimjones3630 is selling A123 26650's for $13 each here:

https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/178188


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## TKO (Feb 10, 2008)

[No message]


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## BigusLightus (Feb 11, 2008)

Thank you Germ and Aircraft800 for the links. 4 A123's are in the mail.


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## BigusLightus (Feb 11, 2008)

Double post


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## Germ (Feb 11, 2008)

BigusLightus said:


> Thank you Germ and Aircraft800 for the links. 4 A123's are in the mail.


 
Darn those CPF server errors  Who'd you order from? Did you get the Hyperions or jimjones3630's cells? What charger will you use?

Please give a report with pic's when you use them


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## BigusLightus (Feb 11, 2008)

Ordered the Hyperions from Air Craft. Gonna try and fit 2 into a 2C with a fivemega extended stainless steel tail cap. Up front will be an FM reflector, Kiu socket, and 5761 lamp. Also gonna try my hand at resistance mods for the first time.

I've not ordered my charger yet. The Hyperion 0610 has caught my attention cause its under $200, will charge everything 'cept the fridge, connects to the computer for uploads and downloads, and will charge at 10 Amps.


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## Germ (Feb 11, 2008)

BigusLightus said:


> Ordered the Hyperions from Air Craft. Gonna try and fit 2 into a 2C with a fivemega extended stainless steel tail cap. Up front will be an FM reflector, Kiu socket, and 5761 lamp. Also gonna try my hand at resistance mods for the first time.
> 
> I've not ordered my charger yet. The Hyperion 0610 has caught my attention cause its under $200, will charge everything 'cept the fridge, connects to the computer for uploads and downloads, and will charge at 10 Amps.


 
Color me jealous. You are building my dream light! Be sure to take pictures of the build and I want a full report


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## BigusLightus (Feb 13, 2008)

While I wait for the A123's to arrive I tried the 5761 in a 3D mag with a 4 Amp MagCharger style battery stick. The brightness is okay but the focus needs work. I unscrewed the head almost all the way before the focus even got close to getting rid of the turbo doughnut and rings. Perhaps my new Kiu socket with three height settings will help.


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## Northern Lights (Feb 13, 2008)

BigusLightus said:


> While I wait for the A123's to arrive I tried the 5761 in a 3D mag with a 4 Amp MagCharger style battery stick. The brightness is okay but the focus needs work. I unscrewed the head almost all the way before the focus even got close to getting rid of the turbo doughnut and rings. Perhaps my new Kiu socket with three height settings will help.


 
I covered this in depth in another thread, use the search function on my recent posts.
You must have a pr to bi pin socket. The focus point whereas the 5761 focus beautifully at two turns up from dead down bottom is like this:

There are at least two bulb heights between the different bi pin to pr sockets. Mine and FM have the pin connectors 2 mm below the rim, KAI is even with the rim. The standard socket holder or pedestal for the slug on a mag head with the pr to bi pin sockets that start with the bulb 2mm down needs to be set 6 mm down into the pedestal to focus. That means the base of the bulb if set 2 mm below the socket gets lowered 6 more, if you use the KAI socket you must push the slug down 8mm. 

You can lock the slug in place by using a spacer in the cam slot or screwing down or epoying it in place, etc. 
A 5761 frosted bottom up to just past the filament, leaving the head clear in a smooth reflector gives and out standing smooth hot spot, big and a thrower with plenty of spill. Yours is out of focus because it is too high. 

Push the slug down. The other post is more detailed, you should find it easily, I can't get to it tonight, sorry.

determine the top of the slug from the end of the tube, add 8mm and that will give you the height to set the KIU. I set mine now by my little chart when I build them.


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## jimjones3630 (Feb 14, 2008)

If we were racing cars, or striving for the most fuel saving car, the analogy works both ways, would you disregard something that provides 20 or even 10% greater speed or efficiency?

A123 cells from Dewalt 36v paks some think are overkill. Their ability to provide high amps and not sag from start to empty state with the amps we use (5-12A) allows building mods without the need for over head voltage and regulation. Regulated lights with hot drivers, older pwm not newer, were expensive.

Regarding charging A123 from Dewalt 36v paks and Emoli 27600 from Milwaukee 28v paks. I leave the factory welded tabs on 2 cell and 3 cell lights I use. I don't balance charge but do check voltage before and after charging with voltmeter. If one cell is low it's very easy to determine that by the color of the light when using very white coloration bulbs like 5761, 64430, and 64458. 

My 64458 I've used 2 configurations of a 3 cells with factor welds and a 2 cells string of A123s. When the light looses it's whiteness it's time to recharge. The 5 cells will measure around 16.5 ov. 

Started using a 5 A123 cell factory weld intact pak with 64458 and no balance charging. Again only run it till the white coloration changes and the pak measures around 16+ ov. Plan to continue monitoring.
jim


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## morelightnow (Feb 14, 2008)

Northern Lights said:


> I covered this in depth in another thread, use the search function on my recent posts.
> You must have a pr to bi pin socket. The focus point whereas the 5761 focus beautifully at two turns up from dead down bottom is like this:
> 
> There are at least two bulb heights between the different bi pin to pr sockets. Mine and FM have the pin connectors 2 mm below the rim, KAI is even with the rim. The standard socket holder or pedestal for the slug on a mag head with the pr to bi pin sockets that start with the bulb 2mm down needs to be set 6 mm down into the pedestal to focus. That means the base of the bulb if set 2 mm below the socket gets lowered 6 more, if you use the KAI socket you must push the slug down 8mm.
> ...




what the heck are you talking about??????


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## jimjones3630 (Feb 14, 2008)

morelightnow said:


> what the heck are you talking about??????


 
read the post he quoted. 

NL your methods are methodical and besides that very systematic.


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## Fulgeo (Feb 14, 2008)

Got my Milwaukee V28 Lithium-Ion Battery-Pack off of Amazon. Have dissasembled it. Have seperated each cell and clean up the weld spots with a light handed dremel. Measured each cells voltage. All 7 Emoli cells measured 3.93-3.92 volts :thumbsup:. Popped them into a 2D AW1111 Mag Mod, grabbed a 2C cell spring (cheetah I know) and success. Will have to get me some PVC pipe this weekend to better center cells. Still waiting on my DeWalt Heavy Duty 36-Volt Lithium-Ion Battery Pack to show up. I also discovered that the Emoli cells fit in one bay of a Wolf-Eyes CH-02 charger. Got the Red charging light. I believe this charger is the same as a Pila charger. Since the Emoli do not have the protection circuit anyone know if the CH-02 will charge the Emoli with no issues? The charger is designed to charge the Wolf-Eyes LRB-168A/168B/150A & 150B cells. On the back of charger it says the output is DC 4.6V .03-1.5A.


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## SilverFox (Feb 14, 2008)

Hello Fulgeo,

The Wolf Eyes charger will charge your Emoli, and any other unprotected cells, to 4.6 volts.

I don't think your Emoli cells will like that, but they shouldn't end up rapidly venting with flame. They will just die.

Tom


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## Fulgeo (Feb 16, 2008)

Got my DeWalt Heavy Duty 36-Volt Lithium-Ion Battery Pack. Have dissasembled it. Have seperated each cell and cleaned up the weld spots with a light handed dremel. Measured each cells voltage. 8 A123 cells measured 3.53-3.52 volts, one measured 3.48 volts and one measured 3.31 volts:thumbsup:. Time to pick up some PVC pipe, Kapton Tape and shrink wrap.


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## Northern Lights (Feb 16, 2008)

morelightnow said:


> what the heck are you talking about??????


You have jumped into the middle of a long thread, it is not self standing for each post as they refer to previous information, in this case I covered in great depth in another thread how to cure this focus problem and the response from that soul was it worked good for him. I hope to help here.
When in doubt read the directions.
Start at post 1 would help I guess follow the thread, 
secondly the search method would help for key words emoli, A123, 5761.
The poor guy is having a problem with focus and it has been covered many times, 5761 is easy to focus and has a great beam.
Modding is just that. You change about everything inside the light and only leave the outer shell, the host the same. If you want just to change a bulb or maybe a battery and some of these problems are not for you then using Mag high power bulbs or ROP pelican bulb is for you because they just drop in.
Modding can be very indepth in theory and mechanical skill or as simple as screwing in a light bulb. 

How many CPF'ers does it take to change a light bulb?


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## LuxLuthor (Feb 17, 2008)

Northern Lights said:


> *How many CPF'ers does it take to change a light bulb?*



That's obviously a trick question, since we all know it depends on the voltage.


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## Fulgeo (Mar 3, 2008)

Just wanted to chortle in and say I just received my e-station BC6 charger today. I ordered it from http://www.all-battery.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=2005 They had it in stock and the cost to ship it to my door was $135.96. Daddy has a charger for his A123s. Thanks NL for the tip.


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## Northern Lights (Mar 3, 2008)

Fulgeo said:


> Just wanted to chortle in and say I just received my e-station BC6 charger today. I ordered it from http://www.all-battery.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=2005 They had it in stock and the cost to ship it to my door was $135.96. Daddy has a charger for his A123s. Thanks NL for the tip.


 
You are welcome, that is about the best price I have seen, better than what I paid, $169.
But it was worth it, I do like it. I run the programs on emoli, A123 and standard Li-ions. Repaired 123a batteries, (cr123) too. I also hook it up to my MagCharger to better control charging the NiMh.


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## TKO (Mar 3, 2008)

Fulgeo said:


> Just wanted to chortle in and say I just received my e-station BC6 charger today. I ordered it from http://www.all-battery.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=2005 They had it in stock and the cost to ship it to my door was $135.96. Daddy has a charger for his A123s. Thanks NL for the tip.


 
When I run the link the charger is listed for $169.95? Is there some kind of discount code?


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## Fulgeo (Mar 4, 2008)

TKO said:


> When I run the link the charger is listed for $169.95? Is there some kind of discount code?



I believe the Coupon Code is "lispecial". This should get you the discount. Let me know your results.


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## TKO (Mar 4, 2008)

That did it!

THANKS!:twothumbs


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## TKO (Mar 4, 2008)

Glad I checked ebay first: Just scored on a New In Box for $118.95 shipped!

Early birthday present for me!

:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:


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## mrQQ (Feb 10, 2009)

sorry for popping up an old thread, but does anyone have any idea where to buy few emoli 18650 cells today..?

thanks..


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## DM51 (Feb 10, 2009)

AW has a thread in the MP selling LiMn 16340 and 18650 size cells. 

LuxLuthor has an excellent thread on Lithium-Ion categories listing the various characteristics of the different chemistries.


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## mrQQ (Feb 10, 2009)

Yeah, I saw his IMR batteries, I was just wondering, if it would be safe to run 4x emolis with 4x aw imrs in serial configuration..


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## DM51 (Feb 10, 2009)

Mixing cells of different brands, ages, capacities or chemistries is very unwise. I would _never_ do it, even with so-called "safe" cells, and especially not in series configuration.


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