# So I'm hiking with a friend late one evening ... (Irony and red light)



## Kestrel (Jul 22, 2015)

... and it gets dark - imagine that. 

We had been out of touch for quite some time so he didn't know that I had become a flashlight junkie. I had my 2xAAA penlight LD01/Streamlight EDC combo, and my SF 6Z with a single-mode XPG triple in reserve. The first part of our route was reasonably well-lit via the twilight, but the second half was a rocky descent and heavily wooded with oaks etc. I fired up my penlight on 'low' as that was all that was necessary to ensure our footing - it was DARK, no moon etc.

So my friend said that what I really needed was red light to preserve my night vision (he mentioned that a couple of times in fact), and then went on about how when he was in the Scouts they insisted on red filters for night hiking, to the point of ominous threats (for a kid of course) if light discipline was violated. Not that he was complaining about my ~15 lumens - we most certainly needed it - but that he was of the decided opinion that red light was much better. Not even beginning the debate between dim red and dim green for the best maintenance of night vision, I had no comment & just listened to his narrative good-naturedly. 'Cuz he wasn't carrying any flashlight at all.


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## RWT1405 (Jul 22, 2015)

*Re: So I'm hiking with a friend late one evening ...*

Should have turned it off! LOL! J/K


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## sinner-cpf (Jul 22, 2015)

*Re: So I'm hiking with a friend late one evening ...*

that was a difficult moment, right there..


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## scs (Jul 22, 2015)

*Re: So I'm hiking with a friend late one evening ...*

You were a truer scout than he was that evening: you were prepared and he was not.


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## Chauncey Gardiner (Jul 22, 2015)

*Re: So I'm hiking with a friend late one evening ...*



Kestrel said:


> ... and it gets dark - imagine that.
> 
> We had been out of touch for quite some time so he didn't know that I had become a flashlight junkie. I had my 2xAAA penlight LD01/Streamlight EDC combo, and my SF 6Z with a single-mode XPG triple in reserve. The first part of our route was reasonably well-lit via the twilight, but the second half was a rocky descent and heavily wooded with oaks etc. I fired up my penlight on 'low' as that was all that was necessary to ensure our footing - it was DARK, no moon etc.
> 
> *So my friend said that what I really needed was red light to preserve my night vision (he mentioned that a couple of times in fact), and then went on about how when he was in the Scouts they insisted on red filters for night hiking, to the point of ominous threats (for a kid of course) if light discipline was violated. Not that he was complaining about my ~15 lumens - we most certainly needed it - but that he was of the decided opinion that red light was much better. * Not even beginning the debate between dim red and dim green for the best maintenance of night vision, I had no comment & just listened to his narrative good-naturedly. '*Cuz he wasn't carrying any flashlight at all. *



Reminds me of one of my favorite scenes from the movie, Con Air. Define irony. 



~ Chance


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## Rider57 (Jul 22, 2015)

*Re: So I'm hiking with a friend late one evening ...*



scs said:


> You were a truer scout than he was that evening: you were prepared and he was not.



Couldn't agree more, the BEST light at any given time is the one you actually have one you. 

Good job OP for being prepared, even if your buddy didnt appreciate it as much as he should have. 

Similar situation:

Stayed late at work one day, had my sk68 with me on a 14500. I placed it on the roof of the truck lighting up the truck bed and the whole front yard well enoughfor us to grap our tools and put them away. My buddy asked me if i had anything brighter or an extra for him as my sk68 wasnt bright enough for him. To which i responded "use your cellphone light"


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## Kestrel (Jul 22, 2015)

*Re: So I'm hiking with a friend late one evening ...*

Thanks for the feedback, I know I'm with 'normal' people here. 

Yes, if I had been quicker-witted or perhaps a little less subtle I should have invited him to turn his light on instead, lol.
5000th post, not that anyone's counting ...


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## sinner-cpf (Jul 22, 2015)

*Re: So I'm hiking with a friend late one evening ...*



Rider57 said:


> Couldn't agree more, the BEST light at any given time is the one you actually have one you.


well said, something is better than nothing.. a nitecore tube does that for me..


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## AVService (Jul 22, 2015)

*Re: So I'm hiking with a friend late one evening ...*

I like pulling out my E05 when it gets dark and then getting to argue that it is not a trick?

Happy 5K too!


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## Amelia (Jul 22, 2015)

*Re: So I'm hiking with a friend late one evening ...*



RWT1405 said:


> Should have turned it off! LOL! J/K



Yeah. *Click* (light off)
"OK, you win. Turn on that red light of yours, and let's get going!"
(Pause...) "Uhhhh... I don't have it on me!"
"Shut up about it then, at least I had the sense to be PREPARED for this situation! What kind of scout did they teach you to be, anyway?"

Would have been priceless!


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## FRITZHID (Jul 22, 2015)

*Re: So I'm hiking with a friend late one evening ...*



Amelia said:


> Yeah. *Click* (light off)
> "OK, you win. Turn on that red light of yours, and let's get going!"
> (Pause...) "Uhhhh... I don't have it on me!"
> "Shut up about it then, at least I had the sense to be PREPARED for this situation! What kind of scout did they teach you to be, anyway?"
> ...



Lol. nice.


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## Rider57 (Jul 22, 2015)

*Re: So I'm hiking with a friend late one evening ...*



Amelia said:


> Yeah. *Click* (light off)
> "OK, you win. Turn on that red light of yours, and let's get going!"
> (Pause...) "Uhhhh... I don't have it on me!"
> "Shut up about it then, at least I had the sense to be PREPARED for this situation! What kind of scout did they teach you to be, anyway?"
> ...



Ha ha ha yes! 

I mean who brags about how crafty and prepared of a scout he was taught to be, then starts a hike late afternoon and doesnt bring atleast one light? Or his whole collection to try them out oh no thats just us, but atleast one cmon


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## BillSWPA (Jul 23, 2015)

*Re: So I'm hiking with a friend late one evening ...*

Red is good for preserving night vision but choices are limited - something the unprepared friend probably didn't realize.


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## WalkIntoTheLight (Jul 23, 2015)

*Re: So I'm hiking with a friend late one evening ...*

Actually, I think his preference for using a red light for a night hike in the woods is kinda dumb. It's true you can use a brighter red light than a white light, and maintain night vision. But, the red light will not light up any objects that don't contain at least some red (or white/gray) colouring. This could be really bad for stumbling through a dark green forest, not seeing much foliage because it looks black. Everything looks either black, white, or grey. Any distinction of colours is impossible, which makes stumbling into rocks or stumps or trees much more likely than if you used a dim white light.

Red light is great for reading maps, or books, when you need a bright light to make out detail, and there's no colour to see anyway. Otherwise, use a white light on a low mode.

Red light is also good for not ruining the night vision of others around you, such as at an astronomy party.


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## Amelia (Jul 23, 2015)

*Re: So I'm hiking with a friend late one evening ...*



WalkIntoTheLight said:


> Actually, I think his preference for using a red light for a night hike in the woods is kinda dumb. It's true you can use a brighter red light than a white light, and maintain night vision. But, the red light will not light up any objects that don't contain at least some red (or white/gray) colouring. This could be really bad for stumbling through a dark green forest, not seeing much foliage because it looks black. Everything looks either black, white, or grey. Any distinction of colours is impossible, which makes stumbling into rocks or stumps or trees much more likely than if you used a dim white light.
> 
> Red light is great for reading maps, or books, when you need a bright light to make out detail, and there's no colour to see anyway. Otherwise, use a white light on a low mode.
> 
> Red light is also good for not ruining the night vision of others around you, such as at an astronomy party.



That has been my experience with Red emitters and night hiking. Red just makes everything more difficult to navigate through, and when you get a red light bright enough to really hike efficiently, it's bright enough that it wrecks your night vision anyway. I still occasionally hike with a low-level red headlamp, but only on smooth, well maintained trails.

There is SO much misinformation out there about colored emitters and night vision... I'd say probably 80 or 90 percent of what you hear or read on the internet about it is incorrect.


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## 1DaveN (Jul 23, 2015)

*Re: So I'm hiking with a friend late one evening ...*

I thought the red thing started with lighting instruments in a plane or boat/ship, where all you needed light for was to read a gauge or compass. With limited experience and no knowledge, I prefer a low level of white light for walking around - I agree with WalkIntoTheLight and Amelia that red doesn't seem useful for walking around.


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## more_vampires (Jul 23, 2015)

*Re: So I'm hiking with a friend late one evening ...*

...so I'm walking with my girlfriend who stole my clothes, managed to get the Zebralight out first.

I said "All you get is my programmed L2."

She got offended. It was dark, we both had night adapted vision. Did I make another mistake? Another quarrel because someone didn't know what "battery vampirism" and "firefly mode" means. Now I'm the weirdo. 

H1 might have caused uncomfortable glare.


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## Amelia (Jul 23, 2015)

*Re: So I'm hiking with a friend late one evening ...*



1DaveN said:


> I thought the red thing started with lighting instruments in a plane or boat/ship, where all you needed light for was to read a gauge or compass. With limited experience and no knowledge, I prefer a low level of white light for walking around - I agree with WalkIntoTheLight and Amelia that red doesn't seem useful for walking around.



There is an actual physiological reason that red wavelengths help preserve dark-adapted vision ("night vision"). It has to do with a certain pigment that builds up in the rods of the retina. The more of this pigment that builds up over time, the better your eyes can see whatever small scatterings of photons happen to strike the eye. This pigment is destroyed (which is what allows you to see the photons) by wavelengths shorter than 640 (I think) nanometers... which is in the red wavelengths. Anything of a longer wavelength does not affect this pigment AS MUCH... but you can still bleach it out with a bright enough red light. So...

To attain and preserve dark-adapted vision, you need:

(a) A light in the mid-to-deep red wavelengths (green, blue, etc. will NOT work)
(b) Very low lumens output (my own tests indicate 10 Lum or less, at least for me)
(c) Time for the pigment in the eyes to actually build up since the last exposure to bright light, at least 15-20 minutes for most people to reach an acceptable, useful level of dark adaptation.

Many people erroneously believe that if they just go out in the dark and turn on a red light, they will somehow have full adapted night vision if they turn off the light. It doesn't work that way. A large majority of people who know about dark adapted vision think that any red light, at any brightness, will allow them to retain whatever dark adaptation their eyes have built up. Also not true. You need a DIM light, in the deeper red (NOT ORANGE) wavelengths, and ONLY after your eyes have undergone dark adaptation for 15 or 20 minutes minimum.

Because of my main hobby and recreational activity (night hiking), I have studied this a lot and done a lot of experiments to see what works and what doesn't. I have found that if you have a VERY dim (firefly mode) white light, and use ONLY enough light to barely see your way around, you can preserve most of your dark adapted vision. If you use red, it is VERY important to keep the output level low. Any more, if I'm really concerned about actually preserving my dark-adapted vision, I use my lights as little as possible, and when I do I typically use a white light in moonlight mode, shielding most of the light with my index finger so only a sliver of it escapes to illuminate in front of me... but only enough to see what I need to.

Green light to preserve night vision is a MYTH!!! This comes from the practice of aircraft pilots using green lights to view console instrumentation, in order to keep the backlighting from "seeing" a brighter background light level and kicking up the backlight level to compensate... blinding the pilot temporarily. Anyone selling you a green light to preserve your dark adapted vision is selling you a bill of goods... it will NOT work, and you will be wasting your money. Buyer beware.


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## Rider57 (Jul 23, 2015)

*Re: So I'm hiking with a friend late one evening ...*

+1 great explanation


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## RedLED (Jul 24, 2015)

*Re: So I'm hiking with a friend late one evening ...*

Nice write up Ameila,

When I was flying a lot in the 80s the sectional chart for. San Diego had a warning in red letters: CAUTION INTENSIVE JET TRAFFIC, with a line pointing to the then Mirimar NAS. In white light you could see it fine, in red light it vanished from the chart. Completely. Very handy!

I remember LA Center had routed us real close and almost over Mirimar and to contact San Diego approach control, there were F14s buzzing us from all directions in the dark. I loved it and my passenger was horrified from the noise and the wake they produced was amazing. 

I kept looking at him and laughing, they are not going to hit us. That was a fun flight. 

After that, I kept a red light for just looking in the cabin for something, but for charts, night vision or not I use a white light. 

As as for green light, what is the best use for that?

I still love red lights looking through a room at night they do reflect back less light, as to not be as visible, or wake people up. Using very low lumens, if course.


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## RedLED (Jul 24, 2015)

*Re: So I'm hiking with a friend late one evening ...*

Also, for hiking, I would think the beam pattern would come into play as say a mule or flood would be better for keeping your NV compared to a thrower with a bright spot that will bounce light right back at you and wreck your NV. 

So, a dim flood may be the best, and it would be wide enough to let you see the ground lit up enough in front of you so you can see your way at least right in front of you. 

On a hike, I would still keep a thrower a with me in order to see off in the distance or to signal a further distance than a flood would do in an emergency.


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## drmaxx (Jul 24, 2015)

*Re: So I'm hiking with a friend late one evening ...*



Amelia said:


> To attain and preserve dark-adapted vision, you need:
> (a) A light in the mid-to-deep red wavelengths (green, blue, etc. will NOT work)
> (b) Very low lumens output (my own tests indicate 10 Lum or less, at least for me)
> (c) Time for the pigment in the eyes to actually build up since the last exposure to bright light, at least 15-20 minutes for most people to reach an acceptable, useful level of dark adaptation.



The dominant factor is (b). Very low brightness is key to preserve night vision. The whole red light thingy is correct - however, a monochromatic light has the disadvantage that for many applications you need more light to see and recognize stuff then compared with a white light. Bottom line: You need less white light then red light to do the same task and therefore the advantage of red light is minimal. Source: Luria and Kobus (1984) 'The Relative Effectiveness of Red and White Light for Subsequent Dark-Adaptation', Naval Submarine Medical Research Laboratory, Report 1036.


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## d88 (Jul 24, 2015)

*Re: So I'm hiking with a friend late one evening ...*



RedLed said:


> Nice write up Ameila,
> 
> When I was flying a lot in the 80s the sectional chart for. San Diego had a warning in red letters: CAUTION INTENSIVE JET TRAFFIC, with a line pointing to the then Mirimar NAS. In white light you could see it fine, in red light it vanished from the chart. Completely. Very handy!
> 
> ...



Was just to post something similar. When I was going through my PPL & IR training we were advised not to use red light in the cockpit, as certain colours do not show up on a sectional map ( important if you're to avoid boundaries) . I never really tested that theory as I always preferred a small amount of white light when reading maps to red anyway.


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## WalkIntoTheLight (Jul 24, 2015)

*Re: So I'm hiking with a friend late one evening ...*



d88 said:


> Was just to post something similar. When I was going through my PPL & IR training we were advised not to use red light in the cockpit, as certain colours do not show up on a sectional map ( important if you're to avoid boundaries) . I never really tested that theory as I always preferred a small amount of white light when reading maps to red anyway.



Yes, it's a little counter-intuitive, but red is the colour you most likely _won't_ see, when using a red light. Red lines on white paper simply look white, so you don't see them. All the other colours look black or grey, so they're visible as long as you don't need to know what colour they are.


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## Kestrel (Jul 24, 2015)

Interesting replies and thanks to all for pointing out the irony of the situation - Scouts being prepared and all that. 

I've renamed the thread title somewhat to better represent our current conversation.


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## etc (Jul 24, 2015)

I have a red gerber infinity, about 8 years old, with about 2 lumens in it (or whatever). I think your friend would be delighted with it.


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## cland72 (Jul 24, 2015)

Just an anecdotal reference to confirm what many here have said:

My initial solution for preserving my night vision was a Surefire A2L-RD. A few months later I decided to give a Quark Pro a whirl, and discovered the joy of moonlight mode. My A2L-RD was sold a short time after. The moonlight mode on the Quark allowed me to keep my night adapted vision, but with MUCH better color and depth rendition than the red LEDs on the Aviator.

In fact, the only red light I have anymore is obtained by using red Surefire filters. The one I use the most is the F05 which I use in conjunction with my L1-WH when I'm hunting. I would use the Quark, but the tailcap clicking is a little too loud for me, so I opt for the twist only Surefire two stage tailcap and red filter.


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## more_vampires (Jul 24, 2015)

*Re: So I'm hiking with a friend late one evening ...*



Amelia said:


> You need a DIM light, in the deeper red (NOT ORANGE) wavelengths, and ONLY after your eyes have undergone dark adaptation for 15 or 20 minutes minimum.


Agree, most of my red lights are *too bright *to avoid destroying night-adapted vision... even on the lowest setting. I think my best red is the ZL H502r red floody. The only problem is that its high mode will definitely obliterate night-adapted vision. It's possible to accidentally activate when you were going for L1 or L2 instead. I mitigate this by covering the output with my hand and slowly moving my hand aside to avoid issues.

Another trick is to close your eyes when you turn on your light. Blasting through your eyelids indicates accidental max mode. 

I love playing with fireflies and moonbeams. It's also near impossible to beat the Pak-lite with a nearly dead battery for night-adapted vision. If you can barely feel a tingle (or even not!) then the 9v is good to go on low mode for NAV. A strong fresh 9v on high will blast your NAV with the Pak-lite.

I'm also fond of the Foursevens Quarks, as they go pretty darn low as well.

Pretty much any Zebralight can play low light games.


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## 1DaveN (Jul 24, 2015)

*Re: So I'm hiking with a friend late one evening ...*

Thanks very much for your interesting and informative posts, Amelia and everyone


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## Roger Sully (Jul 24, 2015)

*Re: So I'm hiking with a friend late one evening ...*

The last time I went on a night hike it was not on purpose......My wife and I took a little longer coming down the trail than anticipated. Well more than she anticipated anyway  I just "happened" to have a TM26 in my pack along with a few other lights. With the ET T25 on my shoulder, the TM26 in my hand, the SF Minimus I had the place lit up pretty good. My wife used the Olight SR Mini to light her path.
Yeah, Night hiking with me really isn't...


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## WalkIntoTheLight (Jul 24, 2015)

*Re: So I'm hiking with a friend late one evening ...*



more_vampires said:


> Pretty much any Zebralight can play low light games.



Yes, I like the Zebralights for moonlight modes. It's the only light I know that provides 3 different levels of moonlight mode to choose from.


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## Tac Gunner (Jul 24, 2015)

*Re: So I'm hiking with a friend late one evening ...*

Last time a group of us went hiking it was at Cumberland falls after we got out of class at 3pm. We made it to the falls about 4:30 and at the time the set was setting around 8pm. Even though it was 3.5 hours till dark I took my TK41, D25a2 , and EA4 with me. The guys gave me heck over it but I wasn't going to be caught in the dark on a trail that ran along the top of 100 foot cliffs with out plenty of light.


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## Chauncey Gardiner (Jul 24, 2015)

*Re: So I'm hiking with a friend late one evening ...*

I love my Atom AO Red LED. 0.5 Lumen ~ 15 Lumens. It's always at my bedside for the occasional 3am bathroom trip and checking on our boys. I can shine it right on their sleeping faces without disturbing them. Teenagers, ........ so precious when they're sleeping. The lights never even been outside.

~ Chance


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## WarRaven (Jul 24, 2015)

For me, moonlight would be OK to use so as to not awake those sleeping.
Night adaptation while I have photon blasters is something I don't get or encounter that much. Why would I, I bought good lights.
What, are we saving power, avoiding light pollution?

Light it up.


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## MidnightDistortions (Jul 25, 2015)

Unless you or others are stargazing you pretty much want as much light as you are comfortable with and without annoying passerbys. It's like the high beams on your car, turn them off if other cars are nearby or going the opposite direction. You want a good light anyhow to see if you caught any animal attention.


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## insanefred (Jul 25, 2015)

*Re: So I'm hiking with a friend late one evening ...*



Kestrel said:


> Thanks for the feedback, I know I'm with 'normal' people here.
> 
> Yes, if I had been quicker-witted or perhaps a little less subtle I should have invited him to turn his light on instead, lol.
> 5000th post, not that anyone's counting ...



You are a moderator, so we have to be nice to you anyways.


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## kelmo (Jul 26, 2015)

*Re: So I'm hiking with a friend late one evening ...*

You're a good friend Kestrel!

It's important to have a light(s) in your pocket but its more important to have "Light" in your heart and accept people for who they are.


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## xzel87 (Jul 26, 2015)

*Re: So I'm hiking with a friend late one evening ...*

I have a question that's bit OT but still relevant to hiking in heavily wooded/forest trails.

Does regular light attract wild animals more so than red light?

I wouldn't want my portable sun end up alerting and attracting a vicious wild animal...but then again maybe I can use the strobe on it lol.


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## FRITZHID (Jul 27, 2015)

*Re: So I'm hiking with a friend late one evening ...*



xzel87 said:


> I have a question that's bit OT but still relevant to hiking in heavily wooded/forest trails.
> 
> Does regular light attract wild animals more so than red light?
> 
> I wouldn't want my portable sun end up alerting and attracting a vicious wild animal...but then again maybe I can use the strobe on it lol.



In my personal exp, the majority of animals seek to avoid light, I can't speak for everyone OR studies done, just what I've witnessed. Other than as few species of fish, and of course insects, I'm not aware of any predatory animals attracted to light.


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## xzel87 (Jul 27, 2015)

*Re: So I'm hiking with a friend late one evening ...*



FRITZHID said:


> In my personal exp, the majority of animals seek to avoid light, I can't speak for everyone OR studies done, just what I've witnessed. Other than as few species of fish, and of course insects, I'm not aware of any predatory animals attracted to light.



Good to know that. Plus with that kinda line-up in your sig for sale no wild beast would come close hahaha. Yeah insects, if i had to use a red light it'd be to avoid those pesky bugs that swarm around....there a tons of them here at night.


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## Cataract (Jul 27, 2015)

I would have simply whipped out the Surefire triple and said "maybe, but this will make the bear and wolf droppings stand out much better"


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## Midnight.Sun (Jul 30, 2015)

1.Flashlight as a selfdefence tool against wild animals. (Not so much)

Some animals like Bares and wolves are dangerous and might not be prohibited by bright light (or strobe) in some cases, in fact it can make them angry and more aggressive, maybe. 

----

2. The usefulness of Red-Light in the wild. (Very useful)

Most animals especially the ones that has eye-shine (Tapetum Lucidum) are very limited to see red light, probably can't see red light at all, due to the more rods than cones photo receptors ratio in the retina, which makes them more of a night hunters, so with the help of Red Light, one can absorb their night activities secretly without disturbing them (or mabe for hunting purposes).

----

3. A thought that can get rid of light's "Bogs Attraction". (Maybe)

Regularl white light (cool and worm colour temperature but more in cool) in the dark does attract bugs and mosquitoes due to its ULtra Violet wave lengths, if there is a UV filter or something that can exclude the UV wave length from white light, that would result into having a bright light (white or nutral) with zero bugs attraction, very convenient add on feature for night activities in the forest or other nature environments.


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## f22shift (Jul 30, 2015)

Midnight.Sun said:


> Some animals like Bares and wolves are dangerous and might not be prohibited by bright light (or strobe) in some cases, in fact it can make them angry and more aggressive, maybe.
> 
> Most animals especially the ones that has eye-shine (Tapetum Lucidum) are very limited to see red light, probably can't see red light at all, due to the more rods than cones photo receptors ratio in the retina, which makes them more of a night hunters, so with the help of Red Light, one can absorb their night activities secretly without disturbing them (or mabe for hunting purposes).
> 
> Regularl white light (cool and worm colour temperature but more in cool) in the dark does attract bugs and mosquitoes due to its ULtra Violet wave lengths, if there is a UV filter or something that can exclude the UV wave length from white light, that would result into having a bright light (white or nutral) with zero bugs attraction, very convenient add on feature for night activities in the forest or other nature environments.



i can imagine they rely on the other senses more like smell.


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## Midnight.Sun (Jul 30, 2015)

f22shift said:


> i can imagine they rely on the other senses more like smell.



And on what distance that would be?


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## Cataract (Jul 30, 2015)

Midnight.Sun said:


> And on what distance that would be?



one or more MILES for both smell and hearing. 

I personally attest that black bears seem to think twice when blinded by a bright flashlight. They certainly react (his head went right into his shoulders). It won't stop them, but I can say that after 3 nights of being chased away by people wailing and yelling, he didn't come back after meeting 500 lumens and me telling him to go away. Given a choice, I'll take the bright white light anytime over any red light if I'm in bear country.

Hum... sorry if I'm taking this thread off topic...


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## MidnightDistortions (Jul 30, 2015)

There's actually a topic on whether bright lights will deter animals http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb...an-a-flashlight-scare-off-an-agressive-animal

Some animals will run off, but if you are often in the wilderness you might want better protection than a flashlight, although i would prefer to have a bright enough light to see my surroundings, at the very least snakes and pesky insects are what i want to be out on the look out for and if you are moving the light around, you may be able to catch a predator trying to find some food and have a better chance of reacting quicker than if you didn't have the light with you.

Also it seems bright flashlights may work on mountain lions https://azgfdportal.az.gov/wildlife/livingwith/mountainlions/


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## Midnight.Sun (Jul 31, 2015)

Cataract said:


> one or more MILES for both smell and hearing.
> 
> I personally attest that black bears seem to think twice when blinded by a bright flashlight. They certainly react (his head went right into his shoulders). It won't stop them, but I can say that after 3 nights of being chased away by people wailing and yelling, he didn't come back after meeting 500 lumens and me telling him to go away. Given a choice, I'll take the bright white light anytime over any red light if I'm in bear country.
> 
> Hum... sorry if I'm taking this thread off topic...



Dear Mr. "Cataract".. I see that you misunderstood my post, i wrote about 3 separate topics:
1st. Flashlight as a self-defence against predators (not reliable)
2nd. The usefulness of red light in the wild (very useful)
3rd. Possible way to get rid of light's "bogs attraction" (maybe)

I'll rearrange my post, it seems that i'm not clever enough to divide my thoughts, and boost my posts rating .


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## Midnight.Sun (Jul 31, 2015)

About wild predators capability to smell and hear from one or two miles (or more), i'm a wild animals lover my self (regret mentioning hunting before but it happened) and i believe they do, but I don't think science have a way to measure that fact, but i say they should do miles beter than us (i personally think so), but that does not mean that they are going to react to every creature that is going to enter their two miles zone (like attacking or fleeing) other wise they would be buisy doing that all the time, and non of us would have seen a single Entertaining Wild Animals Documentary, they sence everything they should and adapt to the environment and keep doing what they do, as we all see on TV, Cam Crews filming from their LandRover meters away from the animal, sometimes in the dark with Thermal or Starlight or Infra Red Cams, and occasionally with a Red-Light.


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