# Battery considerations - Zebralight SC600



## thaugen (Sep 16, 2011)

I have read many threads on this, but am still undecided...

What is the best (reliability, runtime, etc) battery for a Zebralight SC600?

I have narrowed my search to the following:

Redilast 2200, 2600 or 2900
AW 2200, 2600 or 2900

Please feel free to suggest others.

Thanks for sharing your wisdom!


----------



## RBWNY (Sep 16, 2011)

*Re: Best Battery for Zebralight SC600*

I couldn't suggest anything better than what you're considering. I just got an SC600 last week, and have a Redilast 2600 in it. I was a bit fearful at first of the fit and contact...but it's been super so far :thumbsup:.

Haven't tried my Soshine's or EagleTac's in it yet, but I would imagine they'd be comparable.


----------



## thaugen (Sep 17, 2011)

*Re: Best Battery for Zebralight SC600*

Thanks RBWNY!


----------



## SoCal5150 (Sep 17, 2011)

*Re: Best Battery for Zebralight SC600*

I'm using Redilast 3100's in my SC600 with no problems whatsoever but YMMV... just hope the wait isn't too long for a SC600w...


----------



## Pat-inCO (Sep 19, 2011)

*Re: Best Battery for Zebralight SC600*

I got my SC600 a little over two weeks ago and am using the EagleTac with not problems at all.


----------



## RI Chevy (Sep 19, 2011)

*Re: Best Battery for Zebralight SC600*

Redilast 3100's, Callies Kustom 3100's. Both great batteries.


----------



## thaugen (Sep 19, 2011)

*Re: Best Battery for Zebralight SC600*

I just ordered two 18650 batteries that I am confident will work well in my new SC600...an Eagletac 2400 and an AW2900. Thanks for all the help!


----------



## Leoht (Sep 27, 2011)

*Re: Best Battery for Zebralight SC600*

My Redilast 2200 and new 3100 mah 18650's fit my sc600 perfictly. :thumbsup:


----------



## LamontGrady (Sep 30, 2011)

*Re: Best Battery for Zebralight SC600*

Doesn't a fully regulated light like this with a 2.7v cutoff make it unnecessary to use protected batteries?


----------



## jasonck08 (Sep 30, 2011)

*Re: Best Battery for Zebralight SC600*



LamontGrady said:


> Doesn't a fully regulated light like this with a 2.7v cutoff make it unnecessary to use protected batteries?



It adds an extra layer of safety. Protected cells have protection against: overcharging (in case your charger goofs up), overdischarging (not all lights have low discharge voltage cutoff) and short circuiting / over current.


----------



## kwak (Oct 6, 2011)

*Re: Best Battery for Zebralight SC600*

Worth mentioning that there are at least 2 versions of this light.

For the early adopters like myself the tube inner is smaller than on the newer versions.

On my earlier version there is abso9lutely no way my Redilast 3100mAh cell will fit inside.

I have just bought some unprotected Panasonic NCR18650A 3100mAh cells though and they fit great.


----------



## varuscelli (Oct 6, 2011)

*Re: Best Battery for Zebralight SC600*



kwak said:


> Worth mentioning that there are at least 2 versions of this light.
> 
> For the early adopters like myself the tube inner is smaller than on the newer versions.
> 
> ...



I've got an SC600 that I thought was an older one and the Redilast 3100s work fine. But I bought it from another CPF member, so I don't know exactly when it was produced. I think it was purchased by the original owner in late June or early July 2011 (but now I don't remember when the SC600 was first released).


----------



## fnsooner (Oct 8, 2011)

*Re: Best Battery for Zebralight SC600*

Xtar 2600mAh 18700s fit and work great in my newer version SC600.


----------



## Humminbird (Oct 11, 2011)

*Re: Best Battery for Zebralight SC600*

I'm running AW 2600mAh in my SC600, fits perfectly and works great!


----------



## samgab (Oct 11, 2011)

*Re: Best Battery for Zebralight SC600*

To be pedantic: The SC600 isn't designed to run on a battery.


----------



## yifu (Oct 16, 2011)

*Re: Best Battery for Zebralight SC600*

Actually it is a battery, since most 18650s are made by joining together many cells and then shink wrapping it. On a serious note though, the Redilast 3100mah or some of the newer true 3300maH batteries should be the best, since extrapolating Selfbuilt's data on the 2200mah cell should give 2 hours of runtime on 500lumens!


samgab said:


> To be pedantic: The SC600 isn't designed to run on a battery.


----------



## samgab (Oct 16, 2011)

*Re: Best Battery for Zebralight SC600*



yifu said:


> Actually it is a battery, since most 18650s are made by joining together many cells and then shink wrapping it...



Nice try. But nope. The 18650 li-ion 3.6V or 3.7V (nominal) is a single cell. NOT a battery.


----------



## Zenbaas (Oct 23, 2011)

*Re: ZebraLight SC600*

Are any of you running unprotected cells in your SC600....?


----------



## kwak (Oct 23, 2011)

*Re: ZebraLight SC600*

Yep i am.

I'm running Panasonic 3100mAh cells


----------



## Zenbaas (Oct 23, 2011)

kwak said:


> Yep i am.
> 
> I'm running Panasonic 3100mAh cells


 
That's awesome! How are your runtimes...? Also the light has its own over discharge protection for the batteries... Right...?


----------



## fnj (Oct 23, 2011)

*Re: ZebraLight SC600*

Panasonic 2900's.


----------



## kwak (Oct 23, 2011)

*Re: ZebraLight SC600*



Zenbaas said:


> That's awesome! How are your runtimes...? Also the light has its own over discharge protection for the batteries... Right...?



Pretty good.
Never timed it but i would guess i get around 90 mins with the 3100mAh Panasonic cells.

The SC600 does have a low voltage cut-off it's very very low at 2.7v though, so i tend to replace the cell when i see the torch dim (mines the first generation so has no step down).

I find it crazy that these companies invest so much time and money into new lights, yet they do not have anyone that works there that knows anything at all about Lithium chemistry batteries.


----------



## ZebraLight (Oct 23, 2011)

*Re: ZebraLight SC600*



kwak said:


> Pretty good.
> Never timed it but i would guess i get around 90 mins with the 3100mAh Panasonic cells.
> 
> The SC600 does have a low voltage cut-off it's very very low at 2.7v though, so i tend to replace the cell when i see the torch dim (mines the first generation so has no step down).
> ...



Cell manufacturers recommended a higher cut-off (around 2.75V) for their low capacity 18650's 3-5 years ago. Cells such as the Panasonic NCR18650 (2900 or 3100) have a 2.5V cut-off in their specs.


----------



## kwak (Oct 23, 2011)

*Re: ZebraLight SC600*



ZebraLight said:


> Cell manufacturers recommended a higher cut-off (around 2.75V) for their low capacity 18650's 3-5 years ago. Cells such as the Panasonic NCR18650 (2900 or 3100) have a 2.5V cut-off in their specs.



There seems to be some confusion there.

Many of the cells you describe have a "sleep mode" this should NOT be confused with a cut-off voltage though as for some cells if they drop to this "sleep mode" they are NOT recoverable and the cell is then rendered useless.

Panasonic very clearly state that their cells should NOT be discharged below 3v
http://www.panasonic.com/industrial/includes/pdf/Panasonic_LiIon_Precautions.pdf

Even this is only part of the story though, as if cells are stored for any length of time at 2.7v then they will quickly drop even lower.
At 2.7v even a small drop to say 2.2v will have a dramatic reduction in the cells life span IF it's recoverable at all.

Add to this temperature fluctuations, for example the torch will inevitably be hot as it discharges the battery, a 2.7v hot cell will drop voltage as it cools.

This article is a good read, it is more cell phone battery based, but the same chemistry as we are using, it shows the correlation between discharging a cell too far and reducing it's life.
http://www.panasonic.com/industrial/includes/pdf/Panasonic_LiIon_Precautions.pdf


There is absolutely no doubt, that by selecting 2.7v as a cut-off voltage you are costing us money in cell life.
Fenix give 3.3v cut-offs i personally believe this is a decent compromise.

2.7v is certainly far too low.


Cheers
Mark


----------



## DM51 (Oct 23, 2011)

*Re: ZebraLight SC600*



kwak said:


> 2.7v is certainly far too low.


It's not as bad as you think. When you take voltage sag into account, the cells will rebound to >3V once the load is off. That won't reset the cut-off to enable continued use of the cell - it will need to be reset on a charger.


----------



## Tsportmat (Oct 23, 2011)

*Re: ZebraLight SC600*



kwak said:


> There seems to be some confusion there.
> 
> Many of the cells you describe have a "sleep mode" this should NOT be confused with a cut-off voltage though as for some cells if they drop to this "sleep mode" they are NOT recoverable and the cell is then rendered useless.
> 
> ...



I'll just add that not all Fenixs have a low voltage cutoff. I managed to run my Fenix TK12 R5 down to less than 3V (the turbo mode stopped working at some point, although this can be difficult to notice without changing the modes to check). I emailed Fenix and they informed me that this model doesn't have a cut-off as such.


----------



## kwak (Oct 23, 2011)

*Re: ZebraLight SC600*



DM51 said:


> It's not as bad as you think. When you take voltage sag into account, the cells will rebound to >3V once the load is off. That won't reset the cut-off to enable continued use of the cell - it will need to be reset on a charger.



I agree, but in my (admitted limited) experience so far with torches, the voltage rebound is nowhere near that of my RC cells.
No concrete evidence, but my theory so far is that the heat of the torch is cancelling out any voltage sag (a hot 2.7v will give a lower voltage when the cell has cooled).

Either way the cut-off needs to be higher IMO, and in my experience (around 12 years of almost daily LiPo and LiFe use through RC craft) the higher the cut-off the better for the life of the cell.

If the cut-off was adjusted to say 3.4v the the voltage rebound would give around 3.7v which is around what i consider the ideal for storage.



Tsportmat said:


> I'll just add that not all Fenixs have a low voltage cutoff. I managed to run my Fenix TK12 R5 down to less than 3V (the turbo mode stopped working at some point, although this can be difficult to notice without changing the modes to check). I emailed Fenix and they informed me that this model doesn't have a cut-off as such.



Correct.

I also guess that if you have a older Fenix torch the cut-off may well be different.

Neither my TK35 or TK70 have a cut-off, but my TK21 is set at 3.3v, a LOT better compromise than 2.7v.




Cheers
Mark


----------



## Tsportmat (Oct 23, 2011)

*Re: ZebraLight SC600*



kwak said:


> I agree, but in my (admitted limited) experience so far with torches, the voltage rebound is nowhere near that of my RC cells.
> No concrete evidence, but my theory so far is that the heat of the torch is cancelling out any voltage sag (a hot 2.7v will give a lower voltage when the cell has cooled).
> 
> Either way the cut-off needs to be higher IMO, and in my experience (around 12 years of almost daily LiPo and LiFe use through RC craft) the higher the cut-off the better for the life of the cell.
> ...



I would rather it had a 3.3V cut-off - I thought it did have one when I bought it. I was a little worried that it was faulty when I ran it down, hence the email. 

At least I now know that I need to be a bit careful with it.


----------



## bansuri (Oct 23, 2011)

*Re: ZebraLight SC600*

Well I guess I'll be waiting for V3.0 of this light. Neutral with higher cutoff point. 
Zebralight is fantastic about making changes in their lights along the way, I've never seen a light manufacturer respond so quickly to flashoholic feedback, but it makes me leery of getting the first off the production line.
However, I can only wait so long! May have to settle for neutral and be mindful of the cell voltage. (We can discuss why I use unprotected cells elsewhere.)
Kudos to ZL for joining the ranks of manufacturers who use built-in battery protection.


----------



## ZebraLight (Oct 23, 2011)

*Re: ZebraLight SC600*



Overclocker said:


> Mr ZebraLight could you please describe in detail how the step down works?



Right before AND during the light is ON, the driver measures and calculates the voltage and capacity. If the results cross certain thresholds in a list, then it steps down to a lower (user selected) levels. The capacity gauging is not a traditional coulomb counter based one, because it can only be in the driver of the flashlight, not with the batteries.


----------



## ZebraLight (Oct 23, 2011)

*Re: ZebraLight SC600*

http://www.panasonic.com/industrial/batteries-oem/oem/lithium-ion.aspx

Small capacity (old) ones are speced at 3V cut-off. Newer ones such as the NCR18650 (2900, in production since 2006) have a 2.5V cut-off.


----------



## samgab (Oct 23, 2011)

*Re: ZebraLight SC600*

I use Panasonic 2900's, and I'm GLAD the cutoff is at 2.7V for me, that's the perfect cutoff point. I'm quite comfortable discharging these cells to 2.5 Volts, as per the manufacturer. Some people are ridiculous. If I wanted to only discharge to 3 V, I'd just swap the cell more frequently. It doesn't matter if you swap the cell out too soon and recharge more often, at 3.8V or 3.5V or whatever. But if you're stuck in the middle of no-where; in the dark with no access to a fresh cell, having the ability to use the light beyond 3.0V could be the difference between life and death. Or at least between convenience and inconvenience.  Keep it how it is, George!


----------



## bansuri (Oct 23, 2011)

*Re: ZebraLight SC600*

How about no true cutoff, just keep stepping down til it's at the lowest setting so you can use it til it's dead if you need to?
Either way, I'm just gonna get a neutral when they come out and sell it if there is some awesome upgrade later. You can only wait so long for the perfect lights.


----------



## brightasday (Oct 23, 2011)

*Re: ZebraLight SC600*

I'm not in favor of raising the minimum voltage. The VAST majority of the time I change out the battery long before it gets to the cutoff. But I really want the extra runtime to be available in case I need it.


----------



## wildweed (Oct 23, 2011)

*Re: ZebraLight SC600*

I wanted to check run time on high with step down and here is what i came up with.

First off I am using a AW 2900mah new cell. It was not at 100%. It was 4.16v off the charger and I did use it a few times before I started the timer. I checked it before I started and it was 4.12v.

It went exactly 5 min at 750lm before dropping to 500lm. I mean not a second before or later. Timer worked great:thumbsup:

It ran for a total of 1hr and 59min before dropping to medium. I stopped timer there and checked battery @ 3.16v , then again 30 min later and it went back up to 3.19v

Just thought i would share with anyone who was wondering new run times with step down regulation.


----------



## Overclocker (Oct 24, 2011)

*Re: ZebraLight SC600*



wildweed said:


> I wanted to check run time on high with step down and here is what i came up with.
> 
> First off I am using a AW 2900mah new cell. It was not at 100%. It was 4.16v off the charger and I did use it a few times before I started the timer. I checked it before I started and it was 4.12v.
> 
> ...




thanks for the info, good to know that it doesn't step down prematurely

just a question. once it steps down to med, does it step down to low eventually?


----------



## ZebraLight (Oct 24, 2011)

*Re: ZebraLight SC600*



Overclocker said:


> thanks for the info, good to know that it doesn't step down prematurely
> 
> just a question. once it steps down to med, does it step down to low eventually?



Yes.


----------



## Derek Dean (Oct 24, 2011)

*Re: ZebraLight SC600*

So, the more I use this light the more I like it, but like others here, the light I received had a green/yellow XM-L T6 LED... arrrrghh. 

However, using my *Lee Filter Swatch Book* I was able to get it back in the liveable range of tints. I took some before and after photos that you can see here (scroll to my post at the bottom of page 4): 
http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?320811-Changing-LED-Tint-With-Filters/page4


----------



## infinus (Oct 24, 2011)

*Re: ZebraLight SC600*



kwak said:


> If the cut-off was adjusted to say 3.4v the the voltage rebound would give around 3.7v which is around what i consider the ideal for storage.



I couldn't disagree more with this. First off the data sheet you attached in your previous post was too old (2007). The newer cells, as has been stated, have lower cutoff points.

Second, as the newer cells age, the voltage drop under high current loads get larger. I have a few slightly older AW 2900's that when pulled at the current levels of even this torch would sag below 3.4 volts when they still have PLENTY of life left in them. On high, I wouldn't be surprised if moving from 2.7 to 3.4 volts cut run time by as much as half on these slightly older cells.

No thanks!


----------



## kwak (Oct 24, 2011)

*Re: ZebraLight SC600*



ZebraLight said:


> http://www.panasonic.com/industrial/batteries-oem/oem/lithium-ion.aspx
> 
> Small capacity (old) ones are speced at 3V cut-off. Newer ones such as the NCR18650 (2900, in production since 2006) have a 2.5V cut-off.



This is the exact same link as i posted.

If you click on the "technical data" tab in the box at the bottom of the page this takes you to the more detailed pdf file i linked to.
The "specifications" pdf files listed on the first page give no data with regard to low voltage cut-offs.

It's also worth noting that although there have been slight improvements in lithium cell technology over the past few years (mainly doe to new polymer designs) the basic chemistry still stays the same.
As long as it does the way this chemistry reacts at low voltages will stay the same.



samgab said:


> I use Panasonic 2900's, and I'm GLAD the cutoff is at 2.7V for me, that's the perfect cutoff point. I'm quite comfortable discharging these cells to 2.5 Volts, as per the manufacturer. Some people are ridiculous. If I wanted to only discharge to 3 V, I'd just swap the cell more frequently. It doesn't matter if you swap the cell out too soon and recharge more often, at 3.8V or 3.5V or whatever.




George,

We all have our own preferences and experiences and many people disagree with those, to label them as "ridiculous" though is firstly dramatic to the point of being out of proportion and secondly kinda funny :wave:

A couple of things.

1/ It is impossible to judge a torches voltage by it's brightness.
In a lab with an extremely patient and attentive user it MAY be possible to notice a drop in brightness on the old type non step down torches.
Out in the real world though with shades, varying shine distances, reflections etc it's almost impossible.
Add to this the new step down function and it's even more difficult.

I have on occasion noticed my old type SC600 cell drop brightness and have swapped cells, this has only been possible out in the real world around 3 times out of 10 though.

2/ It very much DOES matter if you take Lithium chemistry cell voltages down low, both this and leaving them stored fully charged has a dramatic reduction in their usable life cycles.
This is no secret, cell manufactures, assemblers and users have known about this since they have been bought into production.



samgab said:


> But if you're stuck in the middle of no-where; in the dark with no access to a fresh cell, having the ability to use the light beyond 3.0V could be the difference between life and death. Or at least between convenience and inconvenience.  Keep it how it is, George!




Couple more things.

Lithium cells do not have a linear discharge rate, after around 3.7v is reached their discharge rate drops dramatically, the lower the voltage the sharper the discharge rate drops, as shown below.







So although your statement


> But if you're stuck in the middle of no-where; in the dark with no access to a fresh cell, having the ability to use the light beyond 3.0V could be the difference between life and death



Is no doubt dramatic it does contain enough artistic license to render it impracticable.
In the real world the run time you get from say 3.3v to 2.7v is seconds.

I'd also suggest that if your using a torch in a "life or death" situation you take along a few spare cells :thumbsup:



infinus said:


> I couldn't disagree more with this. First off the data sheet you attached in your previous post was too old (2007). The newer cells, as has been stated, have lower cutoff points.



Please see my response to ZL's post above.
As i said we linked to the exact same page.




infinus said:


> Second, as the newer cells age, the voltage drop under high current loads get larger. I have a few slightly older AW 2900's that when pulled at the current levels of even this torch would sag below 3.4 volts when they still have PLENTY of life left in them. On high, I wouldn't be surprised if moving from 2.7 to 3.4 volts cut run time by as much as half on these slightly older cells.
> 
> No thanks!



Again please see my response to George above.

Your findings do not corroborate the basic chemistry of the cells nor the findings of thousands of Lithium cell uses, manufacturers or distributors over the last 20 years or so.


To substantiate my claim with regards to discharge rates i would like to recommend (very highly) an extremely through and well carried out test here.
http://lygte-info.dk/info/Batteries18650-2011 UK.html


As i say IMO there is absolutely no doubt that 2 things dramatically reduce the usable cell life of lithium cells.

1/ Storing fully charged
2/ Taking the voltage too low

Panasonic clearly state that they consider anything less that 3v detrimental to the cells life, this at 25c which many of our SC600's have no chance at when in high mode.
So unless you enjoy replacing cells every few years or having them expand in your torches i would recommend upping the cut-off to around 3.3v.


Cheers
Mark


----------



## ZebraLight (Oct 24, 2011)

*Re: ZebraLight SC600*

Most Li-ion batteries since early 90's (including the Panasonic CGRs) have Cobalt based positive electrodes. However, the Panasonic NCRs use a Nickel based positive electrode. NCR batteries get this higher capacity from higher energy density AND lower discharge voltage. There was a news release about this around 2006/2007 but I couldn't find it right now. When we were trying to determin the cut-off voltage for the H60 in 2008, we looked at that NCR18650 spec as well as specs from all other major manufactures, and concluded that it should leave the protection circuits to set the cut-off voltages based on the cells used.


----------



## kwak (Oct 24, 2011)

*Re: ZebraLight SC600*

This hobby encompasses many different people with different wants and requirements, so i can sympathise that it must be extremely difficult to the point of impossible to please everyone all the time.

As i say i have been using LiPo and LiFe cells almost daily for around 12 years now, as i have a lot of money invested in many different types of cells i tend to be careful and look after my batteries to the point of being a bit anal.

Personally i would prefer a higher cut-off as i'm 100% certain from my experience that this will lengthen the life of my cells.
Others may prefer a lower cut-off and not be concerned about replacing cells every 2 - 3 years.

End of the day it's your company, your torch so your decision on what you think the majority of your customers and potential customers want. 

As it is i'm extremely disappointed in ZL anyways, in how early adopters of the SC600 like myself had confidence enough in your products to pay for a product weeks if not months before it's released, but have been left with a torch that does not accept 80% of cells currently in production, and none i've yet found above 2400mah.

So the LVC is really not enough to put me off your products alone.



Cheers
Mark


----------



## fnj (Oct 24, 2011)

*Re: ZebraLight SC600*

I suppose (with some trepidation to even suggest this) that the only way to please everybody would be to allow programming your own cutoff criteria - something better than a simple voltage cutoff regardless of current level would be the really correct way to do it - the new step down algorithm appears to be an excellent step forward. We can already (in theory) control how much we charge the darn batteries (4.2 volts being arguably too darn much for long life); we ought ideally to be able to control how much we discharge them. An online readout of voltage by blink code (a la LF2XT) would be a good start. But we're never going to have everybody completely pleased. The basic LiIon technology is severely problematic anyway - can't store fully charged cells on the shelf without ruining them, give me a break.

I'm darn happy with my SC600, but it would be wrong to say the state of that darn battery inside it isn't always gnawing at me.


----------



## infinus (Oct 24, 2011)

*Re: ZebraLight SC600*



kwak said:


> Your findings do not corroborate the basic chemistry of the cells nor the findings of thousands of Lithium cell uses, manufacturers or distributors over the last 20 years or so.
> 
> 
> To substantiate my claim with regards to discharge rates i would like to recommend (very highly) an extremely through and well carried out test here.
> ...



LOL.... sorry dude, no disrespect meant, but again, I have to totally disagree with you. First off, I don't know the state of the batteries used in that test, but I'm assuming they were much newer than mine. My personal observations using my hobby charger to do controlled discharges on my AW 2900's (panasonic cells) shows that at 1 amp discharge I go from 2600mah to 2200mah just by changing the cutoff from 2.7 volts to 3 volts. If I went to 3.4 volts this would be considerably larger. Like I said, my cells are fairly aged and show more voltage depression than your normal cells.

Now, lets use the data you just presented, assuming slightly newer cells. I think the draw on this light is actually like 1.5 amps or so? I'm going to use the 2 amp curves for this discussion, although that might exacerbate the problem a touch more than real life.

Looking at the 2 amp curve, and the AW 2900 cell, you can clearly see that going to 2.7 volts yielding 2700mah and going to 3.4 volts yielded somewhere around 2150mah or so. So even on the cells in that test, it was a swing of 600 mah. My cells, being older, would show an even great swing.

Once again I repeat my point. Going to 3.4 volts would severely cut run time. I'm not trying to be an a$$ or anything but I think you are going far too conservative. To each his own though. I would suggest that instead of limiting all users they keep it as is and let people make a choice on when to recharge.


----------



## Colonel Sanders (Oct 24, 2011)

*Re: ZebraLight SC600*

I think the 2.7v cutoff is a good compromise for the later 2900/3100 cells. They still have some power left in them below 3.3v in my testing. I don't mean a lot, but it's usable power.

If someone is REALLY concerned about cell life then do as I do, leave the house with a fresh charged cell everyday. I have yet to exhaust an 18650 in one day in a Zebralight during normal usage. You could also charge them to only 4v and then pull them every morning for another 4v charged battery. Maybe a little trouble but if cell life is really your concern, why discharge all the way to even 3.3-3.5v?

Myself, when the cells get old, they get replaced by whatever is the latest and greatest. That's part of the fun.


----------



## kwak (Oct 24, 2011)

*Re: ZebraLight SC600*



fnj said:


> I suppose (with some trepidation to even suggest this) that the only way to please everybody would be to allow programming your own cutoff criteria - something better than a simple voltage cutoff regardless of current level would be the really correct way to do it - the new step down algorithm appears to be an excellent step forward. We can already (in theory) control how much we charge the darn batteries (4.2 volts being arguably too darn much for long life); we ought ideally to be able to control how much we discharge them. An online readout of voltage by blink code (a la LF2XT) would be a good start. But we're never going to have everybody completely pleased. The basic LiIon technology is severely problematic anyway - can't store fully charged cells on the shelf without ruining them, give me a break.
> 
> I'm darn happy with my SC600, but it would be wrong to say the state of that darn battery inside it isn't always gnawing at me.



I agree this would be fantastic, it's what the vast majority of modern electronic speed controllers do, many of these used by kids and teenagers that in my experience pick up on Lithium technology and it's safety aspects a lot quicker than many old farts like me.


I should point out that we're talking about percentages of cell life here over 100+ charges.

If you rarely use your torch then we're probably talking 1 to years of use before you start to see the effect of low cut offs and storage at fully charged.



infinus said:


> LOL.... sorry dude, no disrespect meant, but again, I have to totally disagree with you. First off, I don't know the state of the batteries used in that test, but I'm assuming they were much newer than mine. My personal observations using my hobby charger to do controlled discharges on my AW 2900's (panasonic cells) shows that at 1 amp discharge I go from 2600mah to 2200mah just by changing the cutoff from 2.7 volts to 3 volts. If I went to 3.4 volts this would be considerably larger. Like I said, my cells are fairly aged and show more voltage depression than your normal cells.
> 
> Now, lets use the data you just presented, assuming slightly newer cells. I think the draw on this light is actually like 1.5 amps or so? I'm going to use the 2 amp curves for this discussion, although that might exacerbate the problem a touch more than real life.
> 
> ...



I have to be honest as say that i trust the data in that test and my own experiences rather than your unsubstantiated claims.


It's an absolute unequivocal fact that Lithium chemistry cells discharge in a non linear way and that the lower the voltage the sharper the drop.

So either you are wrong or you have some very special cells that fly in the face of all known physics and chemistry 

Your also using capacity when we are talking about time.

On high there is no way that you'd get more than say 1 min from 3.3v to 2.7v.
As i get just over 1 hour on a new cell in my SC600 that's less than 1/60th difference in total run time, in other words inconsequential.


----------



## psychbeat (Oct 24, 2011)

2.7 is perfect IMHO

These lights are about performance and I'd probably upgrade my 18650 before its seriously degraded. 

I mean a new unprotected cell is pretty cheap in the long term. 

A new cell every year or two is no big deal. 

A higher cutoff is equal to lowering the rev limit on a performance car. 

If u are worried about it then don't redline it. 
The 5min cut is bad enough- I personally don't think we need more electronic nannies in our flashlights. 
This is why I'll probably just stick to dumb 2-3 mode p60 lights. 
I do like the zebralight UI and have 2 of their headlamps. 

Anyways , in an emergency I'd rather run my batt down to 2.7 then be in the dark knowing I'd get more cycles.


----------



## kwak (Oct 24, 2011)

*Re: ZebraLight SC600*



psychbeat said:


> 2.7 is perfect IMHO
> 
> These lights are about performance and I'd probably upgrade my 18650 before its seriously degraded.
> 
> ...



At the risk of getting tired of my own voice here.

We are talking about seconds difference in total run time an extremely small percentage, yet a large increase in battery life.


If it were to reduce the run time on high by say 10 mins, i'd agree 100%.
In practice though we are talking no noticeable difference by the VAST majority of torch users.


----------



## psychbeat (Oct 24, 2011)

How much runtime on low then?


----------



## Derek Dean (Oct 24, 2011)

*Re: ZebraLight SC600*



kwak said:


> On high there is no way that you'd get more than say 1 min from 3.3v to 2.7v.
> As i get just over 1 hour on a new cell in my SC600 that's less than 1/60th difference in total run time, in other words inconsequential.


As a new owner of an SC600 I've been following this discussion with interest. 

I do feel Zebralight has made the right decision here with their choice of the low voltage cutoff value. It IS hard to please everybody, and in this matter they chose to go with longer runtime, and for the vast majority of users I'll bet that is a good choice.

kwak, with the new step regulation it appears the light will step down to a lower level before it gets to the cutoff level, so instead of 1 minute of extra time we could be talking about a LOT more, and in some situations that might not be inconsequential.

In my way of thinking it's better to err on the side of the safety of the user by providing maximum runtime rather than being overly concerned about the long term effects on the cell. Just my 2 cents.


----------



## infinus (Oct 24, 2011)

*Re: ZebraLight SC600*



kwak said:


> I have to be honest as say that i trust the data in that test and my own experiences rather than your unsubstantiated claims.
> 
> 
> It's an absolute unequivocal fact that Lithium chemistry cells discharge in a non linear way and that the lower the voltage the sharper the drop.
> ...



Dude, I used your own data and showed a difference of near or over 600mah? That's a "few seconds?".

Look at your own charts, 3.4 volts to 2.7 volts provides substantial energy. Much more than a few seconds. Another fact you are ignoring is that the higher the current draw, the more linear that curve gets.


----------



## psychbeat (Oct 24, 2011)

AND- on the lower modes with less voltage sag its got to be more than a few seconds.


----------



## infinus (Oct 24, 2011)

*Re: ZebraLight SC600*

Here are some stats, hot off the charger:

I set this up to be similar to real life results with the ZL. I used a discharge of 1.5 amps which is a good approximation of high. This is with my slightly older and heavily used 18650 cells.

Starting from 4.16 volts, I set a termination point of 3.4 volts. After termination the voltage rebounded to 3.6 volts.







So 58 minutes of run time and 1465 mah burned.

Second, I kept the same battery, and restarted the discharge with a new termination of 3 volts. After termination the voltage rebounded to 3.34 volts.






Another 40 minutes of run time, another 1000 mah burned.

Going to 2.7 volts would yield, from my experience, another 150 or 200 mah, so probably another 4-10 minutes.

I know you just want to dismiss my proof as "unsubstantiated claims" but I much prefer real world results vs ideal tests done using brand new cells.

No thanks to giving up 40+ minutes of run time.


----------



## infinus (Oct 24, 2011)

*Re: ZebraLight SC600*

Last post before bed.....

Important data sheets for NEWER panasonic cells:
http://industrial.panasonic.com/www-data/pdf/ACA4000/ACA4000PE1.pdf - shows that normal termination should be at 2.5 volts per cell
http://www.panasonic.com/industrial/includes/pdf/ncr18650_datasheet.pdf - shows discharge curves going to 2.5 volts, which is how they get 2900 mah ratings
http://industrial.panasonic.com/www-data/pdf/ACA4000/ACA4000PE4.pdf - shows low voltage over discharge protection should be at 2.3 volts

Again, I'm really not trying to come across as a jerk. I'm sure you have tons of experience with Li-Ion as you said, but it appears its mostly with the older cells that didn't like being discharged so much as you've said. New Panasonic cells are clearly documented as being ok to run down to 2.5 volts. This is how they've achieved higher capacities. My tests and the Panasonic curves all show that a 3.4 volt termination leaves a lot of energy left in the cell. I see no reason why Zebralight should prevent people from utilizing this. We aren't always in ideal situations where using half the power of a cell is a good option. I prefer to have all the run time I can get in case I need it. Otherwise, swap your cells out! Why are you running them down until the light goes out anyways if you are so concerned about capacity.


----------



## DM51 (Oct 25, 2011)

*Re: ZebraLight SC600*

A cut-off at 2.5V can only lead to problems such as shorter cycle life if the application using it is a low-amperage one, where little or no no voltage rebound occurs once the load is removed, _AND _where the cell is not recharged promptly when empty. In one situation or the other, the cell should be undamaged, but if both coincide together, cell life will be affected. 

The problem is not draining the cell to 2.5V - it is leaving it there instead of recharging it promptly.


----------



## samgab (Oct 25, 2011)

*Re: ZebraLight SC600*

Oh, can I just add: it's great to have the company director popping in here to add to the discussion: Thanks for that George. And I really look forward to the release of the Q50!

Also: infinius and psychbeat, you're exactly right.


----------



## fnj (Oct 25, 2011)

*Re: ZebraLight SC600*



DM51 said:


> A cut-off at 2.5V can only lead to problems such as shorter cycle life if the application using it is a low-amperage one, where little or no no voltage rebound occurs once the load is removed, _AND _where the cell is not recharged promptly when empty. In one situation or the other, the cell should be undamaged, but if both coincide together, cell life will be affected.
> 
> The problem is not draining the cell to 2.5V - it is leaving it there instead of recharging it promptly.



And when it takes 80 days to drop to 2.5 v on low, the chance of it NOT lingering at low voltage is nil.


----------



## psychbeat (Oct 25, 2011)

I'd bet most people's dinner cost more than an unprotected 3100mah Panasonic. 

My AW2600s have almost 2years of being drained to cutoff or near it and still seem to hold ~4.18 a day or twi after charging. They get used mostly in my lower 2.8a light. 
I use the 2900 and 3100 in my 4.2a. 
Although the AWs still run the 4.2 fine. 

My point being even running em hard u can probably get a couple of years out of yer batts. 

It's unlikely u will need 80days but IF u do, replacing an 18650 isn't that big of a deal. My bet is the cell would be fine after tho.


----------



## infinus (Oct 25, 2011)

*Re: ZebraLight SC600*

Yeah, my AW 2900's have only been run in high drain lights (ie: M3C4 XML, Thrunite Catapult, Zebralight SC600, and Scorpion V2). They don't always get run down to cutoff, but it does happen. They've been through at least a hundred or more cycles, and still test out to 2650mah (drained to 3 volts @ 500 mah). At higher loads the test a tad less. I think new most of the 2900's test out around 2750 or 2800. These things definitely take high drain low voltage pretty well. I do think these Panasonic cells exhibit more voltage sag than other cells I have in my collection, and I'm not convinced it's simply because they've been heavily used. I think it's part of this chemistry to sag a bit more under high load, but I'd have to do some testing to verify that, and I'm not buying new cells at this moment.


----------



## DM51 (Oct 25, 2011)

*Re: ZebraLight SC600*

42 posts (#18 through #59 above) have been moved here from the main SC600 thread.


----------



## fridgetarian (Oct 26, 2011)

*Re: ZebraLight SC600*



bansuri said:


> How about no true cutoff, just keep stepping down til it's at the lowest setting so you can use it til it's dead if you need to?
> Either way, I'm just gonna get a neutral when they come out and sell it if there is some awesome upgrade later. You can only wait so long for the perfect lights.



Wow, I think you just solved the problem (practically, that is). We all know most of the time we have a spare battery on hand and we could easily switch out if we needed (and were paranoid about cell life) especially if prompted by an obvious step-down to a medium brightness at let's say 3.0V. The runtime would be extended, the lumens-freaks would just pop in a new cell, and the cell would last a whole lot longer. The only reason this won't catch on is because manufacturers won't be able to claim runtimes on high past this point. However, I see it as a perfect trade-off. Wish it actually caught on. Zebralight, are you listening? I think you could spin this into a great selling point if it's not too tedious for the general consumer.


----------



## TedTheLed (Oct 26, 2011)

*Re: ZebraLight SC600*

my sc600 doesn't do that. 
it just blinks off.
VERY disconcerting outside in the dark.
I'm surprised at myself for buying a couple of lights lately that had NO sort of fuel gauge..
can I trade it in for the updated one with the capacity remaining indication?


----------



## psychbeat (Oct 26, 2011)

*Re: ZebraLight SC600*

usually (with most lights) you can turn back on again in a lower mode after shutoff.


----------



## TedTheLed (Nov 10, 2011)

*Re: ZebraLight SC600*

hey psych, you know something, you're right. no clicking will bring the light back, but one turn of the battery cap, and the light comes on, but blinks off immediately if it goes to brightest.. controlling the brightness when turning back on is a little tricky, but once done, a lot of light is left in the medium and low modes...
thanks for the tip,
guess I've been spoiled by my HDS lights, that 'never leave you in the dark' !


----------



## levelflight (Nov 10, 2011)

*Re: ZebraLight SC600*



TedTheLed said:


> my sc600 doesn't do that.
> it just blinks off.
> VERY disconcerting outside in the dark.
> I'm surprised at myself for buying a couple of lights lately that had NO sort of fuel gauge..
> can I trade it in for the updated one with the capacity remaining indication?



TedTheLed

Good idea! This is one new feature that would have universal appeal; a capacity remaining indicator. It would be useful in virtually every application, solving the ageless dilemma; to charge, or, good to go.


----------



## moldyoldy (Nov 11, 2011)

*Re: ZebraLight SC600*



TedTheLed said:


> hey psych, you know something, you're right. no clicking will bring the light back, but one turn of the battery cap, and the light comes on, but blinks off immediately if it goes to brightest.. controlling the brightness when turning back on is a little tricky, but once done, a lot of light is left in the medium and low modes...
> thanks for the tip,
> guess I've been spoiled by my HDS lights, that 'never leave you in the dark' !



Are you using an 18650 cell with protection? The internal cell protection will cut off the cell with no warning. That is one reason why I tend strongly towards single-cell lights and use unprotected Li-xxx cells. If you have a multi-cell light, you still need to use protected cells because of natural multi-cell imbalances.

In the case of my recent-version SC600 with a protected AW2900mah cell, the cell so far has not reached the voltage level where the protection circuit would cut off the cell. This SC600 simply keeps dropping to the next output level. So far it has dropped all the way to minimum, but still no cell cut-off.


----------



## Philabuster (Dec 30, 2011)

*Re: ZebraLight SC600*



moldyoldy said:


> Are you using an 18650 cell with protection? The internal cell protection will cut off the cell with no warning. That is one reason why I tend strongly towards single-cell lights and use unprotected Li-xxx cells. If you have a multi-cell light, you still need to use protected cells because of natural multi-cell imbalances.
> 
> In the case of my recent-version SC600 with a protected AW2900mah cell, the cell so far has not reached the voltage level where the protection circuit would cut off the cell. This SC600 simply keeps dropping to the next output level. So far it has dropped all the way to minimum, but still no cell cut-off.


Found this thread after buying my SC600w.

I bought a few 18650s and a nice Pila charger for other lights, but for this light with its 2.7v protection, I find myself using *recycled* cells. 

After my GFs HP laptop battery died, I said I wanted it. She gave it to me after confirming her new battery worked. I extracted the cells and checked them--4.2v on ALL cells. Hmmm...it appeared like the internal protection circuit of the battery pack died and not the 18650s. Not sure what Ah the blue cells are, but can't complain for 8 _free to me_ cells. :huh:


----------



## radellaf (Dec 31, 2011)

I'll throw in that 2.7V cutoff suits me fine, considering I only use the unprotected NCR cells (tho my redilast does fit). Even so, most likely to hit cutoff on high where voltage sag makes it even more reasonable. I do run it for days at a time on the lowest low, but it's highly unlikely to be drained at that setting. I generally swap to the second cell if I think the one in there is even close to 50%.

Ideal would be a battery indicator. Make the button translucent and put some sort of indicator behind it, or something like that. Not just a "almost dead", but also a ~50%, ~25% indication would be great.


----------



## SHADE02 (Jan 12, 2012)

Q?: are OFT,ANSI or LED lumens the zebralight numbers?


----------



## hatman (Jan 19, 2012)

*Re: Best Battery for Zebralight SC600*



yifu said:


> Actually it is a battery, since most 18650s are made by joining together many cells and then shink wrapping it. On a serious note though, the Redilast 3100mah or some of the newer true 3300maH batteries should be the best, since extrapolating Selfbuilt's data on the 2200mah cell should give 2 hours of runtime on 500lumens!



Who's making a 3300mah battery?


----------



## Patriot (Feb 1, 2012)

*Re: Best Battery for Zebralight SC600*

For the sake of satisfying my own questions, I've been using CR123's just to find out if they would work. So far, I haven't had any issues and all of the modes operate. I don't have any run times to post yet but the light seems to be handling the 123's just fine. I've run down two sets of Surefire cells so far. Perhaps others can benefit from this knowledge if they ever needed to use 123's as a backup power source.


----------



## opiy (Feb 18, 2012)

I just scanned the thread and didn't see it but will the Ultrafire 2400 and 3000 18650s work OK in this light or will I be better off buying a couple AWs or Redilast batteries?


----------



## tobrien (Feb 18, 2012)

opiy said:


> I just scanned the thread and didn't see it but will the Ultrafire 2400 and 3000 18650s work OK in this light or will I be better off buying a couple AWs or Redilast batteries?


just go ahead and invest (it _is_ an investment) in some Redilast or AWs. 

they both will perform excellently, but supposedly the Redilasts outperform AW.

but I will say I _love_ how the AWs have steel plates on the base/negative/bottom end of the cells, which not only looks cool, but keeps it from getting scratched up so easily. 

plus, Ultrafires don't typically reach their stated capacity to the best of my knowledge.

I hope this helps!


----------



## Burgess (Feb 18, 2012)

Anyone tried the brand-new AW 3100 battery yet ? ? ?


----------



## opiy (Feb 18, 2012)

tobrien said:


> just go ahead and invest (it _is_ an investment) in some Redilast or AWs.
> 
> they both will perform excellently, but supposedly the Redilasts outperform AW.
> 
> ...



Thanks, I will go ahead and get some Redilasts then here soon.


----------



## TyJo (Feb 18, 2012)

Burgess said:


> Anyone tried the brand-new AW 3100 battery yet ? ? ?


Yes it works great, it is thinner then the 2900s so it fits even better for me (I have a piece of paper in the tube with my name/email/phone number in case I lose it).


----------



## tobrien (Feb 19, 2012)

opiy said:


> Thanks, I will go ahead and get some Redilasts then here soon.


no problem man, any time!


----------



## varuscelli (Feb 20, 2012)

TyJo said:


> (I have a piece of paper in the tube with my name/email/phone number in case I lose it).



Cool idea! Nice tip. :thumbsup:


----------



## ciccio90 (Feb 23, 2012)

SHADE02 said:


> Q?: are OFT,ANSI or LED lumens the zebralight numbers?


 <<????????????????????????????????'


----------



## lebox97 (Feb 23, 2012)

the Zebralight specs have always been *OTF* (Out The Front) Lumens. 

From ZL and any ZL dealers site you will find *"Light output are out the front (OTF) values"*

*LED* lumens on the SC600/H600 XM-L U2 TURBO is approx. 1,000 Lumens!

FYI, Typically reflector and lens loss is around 25% +/- 
so this is the rule of thumb used to convert Emitter/LED/Bulb/Lumens to OTF Lumens.
ie. 1,000 emitter lumens converts to 750 OTF.

ZL does not use ANSI - like many other manufacturers for a wide variety of reasons - 
But one can guesstimate an ANSI of 750 lumens or a little less, as ANSI by definition IIRC is OTF, measured after 3 minutes runtime. (the ZL SC600/H600 runs on TURBO for 5 min)


Cheers
Tod




ciccio90 said:


> <<????????????????????????????????'





SHADE02 said:


> Q?: are OFT,ANSI or LED lumens the zebralight numbers?


----------



## NM08SRT8 (Feb 27, 2012)

I'm hoping that you all can help me out. I have two Jetbeam 18650's for my M1Xm.. And charge them in the Pila smart charger from BOG. I would like to get a dedicated cell for my new SC600 in the mail starting tomorrow. Having this charger, what would be the best cell to charge in this charger and use in the SC600?


----------



## ciccio90 (Feb 27, 2012)

lebox97 said:


> the Zebralight specs have always been *OTF* (Out The Front) Lumens.
> 
> From ZL and any ZL dealers site you will find *"Light output are out the front (OTF) values"*
> 
> ...






thanks you very much lebox!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## NM08SRT8 (Feb 27, 2012)

Burgess said:


> Anyone tried the brand-new AW 3100 battery yet ? ? ?



Just ordered my light and a AW 3100 Yesterday. should be in tuesday/wednesday.


----------



## ChrisGarrett (Feb 27, 2012)

*Re: Best Battery for Zebralight SC600*



Patriot said:


> For the sake of satisfying my own questions, I've been using CR123's just to find out if they would work. So far, I haven't had any issues and all of the modes operate. I don't have any run times to post yet but the light seems to be handling the 123's just fine. I've run down two sets of Surefire cells so far. Perhaps others can benefit from this knowledge if they ever needed to use 123's as a backup power source.



I just bought a SC600 last night and a Xtar WP2 II, but haven't gotten the batteries yet. I'm wondering if I need button tops, or not and then who makes what? I'm also concerned about battery length, as the Redilast, AW and CalliesKustom all seem to be over 68mm and it seems the SC600 can handle cells 'up to 67mm', so something appears to be amiss?

Your experiment is helpful because in the event of an emergency, it's nice to know that 123 primaries will work and not blow things up. ZebraLight only lists the 18650 as an option on their site:

"Operating Voltage Range: 2.7V - 4.2VBattery: One 18650 size (up to 67mm long) 3.6/3.7V Li-ion rechargeable battery. Batteries are not included in the package.
Parasitic Drain: Negligible (equivalent to *13* years)"

However, IlluminationGear, where I got my light from, has things listed a bit differently:

"BATTERY:
One 18650 size (up to 67mm long) 3.7V Li-ion battery. *(18650 ONLY - NO CR123's!)"

*So that's a bit confusing. 

Anyhow, I still have to decide on a brand of 18650, whether to get a pair and then who to buy from. Also there's the CalliesKustom 2250mAh hybrid, high '10a' discharge battery from HKJ's shootout to consider:







There's a lot to consider here, lol! Who would have thunk it, that this battery stuff can turn out to be deadly!

Thanks for the info, 

Chris


----------



## hazna (Feb 27, 2012)

*Re: Best Battery for Zebralight SC600*



ChrisGarrett said:


> I just bought a SC600 last night and a Xtar WP2 II, but haven't gotten the batteries yet. I'm wondering if I need button tops, or not and then who makes what? I'm also concerned about battery length, as the Redilast, AW and CalliesKustom all seem to be over 68mm and it seems the SC600 can handle cells 'up to 67mm', so something appears to be amiss?
> 
> Your experiment is helpful because in the event of an emergency, it's nice to know that 123 primaries will work and not blow things up. ZebraLight only lists the 18650 as an option on their site:
> 
> ...



Flat tops batteries should work, the sc600 has a spring in the positive end of the tube. 

While some people report 2xcr123a work with the light, it is NOT recommended by zebralight at all. I would be very hesistant to use them with cr123a unless it is really an emergency. And if the light develops problems it's your own fault.

my redilast 2900mah seem to fit fine in the sc600, so I believe the 3100mah should be okay as well. panasonic 2900/3100mah batteries with a good quality protection circuit (such as AW or redilast), should be able to handle to 5-6A, there's probably no need for the high discharge battery from callie's customs. I'd rather the higher capacity of 2900/3100mah panasonics NCRs


----------



## opiy (Feb 27, 2012)

I have a redilast 3100 in the sc600 and it fits and runs fine so far.


----------



## ChrisGarrett (Feb 27, 2012)

*Re: Best Battery for Zebralight SC600*



hazna said:


> Flat tops batteries should work, the sc600 has a spring in the positive end of the tube.
> 
> While some people report 2xcr123a work with the light, it is NOT recommended by zebralight at all. I would be very hesistant to use them with cr123a unless it is really an emergency. And if the light develops problems it's your own fault.
> 
> my redilast 2900mah seem to fit fine in the sc600, so I believe the 3100mah should be okay as well. panasonic 2900/3100mah batteries with a good quality protection circuit (such as AW or redilast), should be able to handle to 5-6A, there's probably no need for the high discharge battery from callie's customs. I'd rather the higher capacity of 2900/3100mah panasonics NCRs



OK. Thanks again.

Seems that the hybrid Callies with their high amp discharge capability isn't necessary in your mind? Since it has a spring on the positive end, button, or buttonless, seem to work equally as well.

I've read through the 2-3 major SC600 threads and at least for the new version, which I hope I'm getting, Redilast, AW, EagleTac and Callies all fit, even though the specs call for cells up to 67mm, so that shouldn't be a problem for me.

I ordered the 'cool' white emitter with its 10 zillion kelvin reading and I've gone through IG's site and looked at all of the comparisons and I'm wondering if I should have gotten the neutral LED, but comments on IG's site tend to point to the 'cools' not being as cool (blue/green) now and the neutral/natural LEDs not being as 'yellow/red' as they either once were, or the way incandescent bulbs are.

I did read where one guy used a LEE filter, magenta I think, on his 'cool' SC600 and it really brought it back to a more colorful presentation, without losing a lot of output via the filter itself, so that's a 'work around' to keep in the back of my mind.

I guess I could always just send it back and exchange it, paying shipping both ways. I'm sure IG would accomodate me on that one.

Anyhow, I see IG sells the EagleTac 3100s, with the Pannie NCR cell, but the PCB is sourced out of China, however they seem to be a good cell without the boutique factor of the Redilasts, AWs and the Callies.

At <$16 w/shipping, not too bad I guess.

I may just order through Callie directly, or Lighthound for the Redilasts or the AWs.

Decisions...

Thanks again, Chris


----------



## JB (Apr 25, 2012)

*Re: ZebraLight SC600*



kwak said:


> Pretty good.
> Never timed it but i would guess i get around 90 mins with the 3100mAh Panasonic cells.
> 
> The SC600 does have a low voltage cut-off it's very very low at 2.7v though, so i tend to replace the cell when i see the torch dim (mines the first generation so has no step down).



Since your 1st gen light has no step down, you mean you can get 750 lumens @ 90 mins on 3100mAh cells??!

Does the light get too hot? Can it sustain 750 lumens for that long? I would have thought thermal shutdown would kick in.


----------



## tatasal (Apr 25, 2012)

*Re: ZebraLight SC600*



Philabuster said:


> Found this thread after buying my SC600w.
> 
> I bought a few 18650s and a nice Pila charger for other lights, but for this light with its 2.7v protection, I find myself using *recycled* cells.
> 
> After my GFs HP laptop battery died, I said I wanted it. She gave it to me after confirming her new battery worked. I extracted the cells and checked them--4.2v on ALL cells. Hmmm...it appeared like the internal protection circuit of the battery pack died and not the 18650s. Not sure what Ah the blue cells are, but can't complain for 8 _free to me_ cells. :huh:



In my SC600 I also use discarded laptop cells. You may have 4.2v cells but I suggest you try putting your SC600 on turbo till it steps-down. In my experience some cells may have up to 4.2v but cannot sustain the entire turbo mode of 5 min. Some 'damaged' cells will step down much earlier at less than 2 minutes. I keep the ones that can complete the 5min run.


----------



## moozooh (Jun 1, 2012)

*Re: ZebraLight SC600*

Has anybody done runtime measurements with true 3100+ mAh cells?


----------



## malocchio (Jun 1, 2012)

*Re: ZebraLight SC600*

I have been looking for a LiFePO4 18650 cell for this torch,but all I find are cheap chinese brands,none of the most trusted names.Are any of the more trusted brands making a 18650 in this chemistry ?


----------



## TyJo (Jun 2, 2012)

*Re: ZebraLight SC600*



moozooh said:


> Has anybody done runtime measurements with true 3100+ mAh cells?


Funny that you ask, I have been thinking about doing this lately. I might pick up the new Zebralight Headlamp Eventually (H502w, when the "w" version is released). If I do get that headlamp I might run some tests with the SC600w on an AW 18650 3100mah. I won't do scientific tests but rather run the light for a week or more on the lowest setting and measure the battery voltage afterwards.... no promises though as it is the light I most often use around the house and I don't like running 18650s down very low.


----------



## WmArnold1 (Jun 3, 2012)

*Re: ZebraLight SC600*

Fyi, I bought my SC600 about six weeks ago, with one *unprotected* Panasonic NCR-18650*A*; 3100 Amp-hours & 11.2 Watt-hours.

One of the first things I did, here, was to set the light on a plastic jar and clock the run-time: 5min on Turbo, 2hrs 9min on High, and stepping down, 14min on 65lu medium. I didn't use a fan or anything, and the head temperature gradually rose 61 degrees-F above ambient to 137.4 (infra-red) deg-F.

Since then; I haven't done any full-on tests from a full-charge, but, I have clocked the full-on time left before stepping-down several times; just before I recharge. Always with a desk fan, and, the head temperature doesn't rise more than 15 degrees. Anyway, the most important thing I want to post now is that I'm getting between 60 and 80 minutes of 65lu medium after stepping down from high, before stepping down again; into low. After doing this; _*my battery measures between 3.2 and 2.9 volts*_. I'm not doing this with every recharge cycle, but I'm keeping track and I will post my log after a year or so.

The bottom line is that I can always depend on having at least an hour of 65lu medium in reserve and that if I ever need more, God forbid, I probably have at least a day's worth of low modes too.


----------



## Shadowww (Jun 3, 2012)

*Re: ZebraLight SC600*



malocchio said:


> I have been looking for a LiFePO4 18650 cell for this torch,but all I find are cheap chinese brands,none of the most trusted names.Are any of the more trusted brands making a 18650 in this chemistry ?



A123Systems makes APR18650M1A cells [1100mAh; ultra-high power]
K2 Energy makes 18650E [1500mAh, low power] and 18650P [1200mAh, high power]
also Samsung makes 18650-sized 1100mAh cells, with ultra-high power capabilities.


----------



## TEEJ (Jun 3, 2012)

*Re: ZebraLight SC600*

Its a single cell light...just use a protected 18650, 3100 mAh cell, and be happy.

Remember that the protection also protects you during charging...not just in the light.


----------



## TyJo (Jun 9, 2012)

*Re: ZebraLight SC600*



WmArnold1 said:


> Fyi, I bought my SC600 about six weeks ago, with one *unprotected* Panasonic NCR-18650*A*; 3100 Amp-hours & 11.2 Watt-hours.
> 
> One of the first things I did, here, was to set the light on a plastic jar and clock the run-time: 5min on Turbo, 2hrs 9min on High, and stepping down, 14min on 65lu medium. I didn't use a fan or anything, and the head temperature gradually rose 61 degrees-F above ambient to 137.4 (infra-red) deg-F.
> 
> ...


Nice testing, thanks for the info.


----------



## adhesivehandle (Oct 15, 2012)

*Protected 18650s that fit ZebraLight SC600?*

Hi, I'm currently using XXXXFire's on my SC600 right now and I'm planning to upgrade to better quality 18650's. I was looking into picking up some better quality 18650's that are protected, but heard that some people had trouble with certain brands fitting into the light. Which batteries can you recommend that are protected that fit in SC600's?


----------



## moozooh (Oct 16, 2012)

*Re: Protected 18650s that fit ZebraLight SC600?*

Orbtronic and AW definitely fit (I have the former, and AW's are among the shortest of all). I believe Redilast and Keeppower should fit with no problem either, otherwise we'd have heard from their owners already.


----------



## CM2010 (Oct 16, 2012)

*Re: Protected 18650s that fit ZebraLight SC600?*

I've got about 8 Keeppower 3100's and two won't go all the way into my SC600, the new Egletac 3400's fit fine tho as do the 3100's.


----------



## justanotherguy (Oct 17, 2012)

*Re: Protected 18650s that fit ZebraLight SC600?*

I have 10 keeppowers... and I am pretty sure I havent a problem with them in the SC600's....Then again I now keep a few at work. Those go into the SC60w's I have and half of them are tight...I have to do a very firm 'palm pound' to get them out enough to grab....
Tony


----------



## CM2010 (Oct 29, 2012)

*Re: Protected 18650s that fit ZebraLight SC600?*

Just got 2 Keeppower 3400's and neither will fit into the SC600.


----------



## flame2000 (Oct 31, 2012)

*Re: Protected 18650s that fit ZebraLight SC600?*



CM2010 said:


> Just got 2 Keeppower 3400's and neither will fit into the SC600.



My Keeppower 3400 arrived today. Both would not fit in my SC600 too.  
My SC600 is the later version with lanyard hole. I think I gonna grab some Eagletac 3400.


----------



## LEDburn (Nov 1, 2012)

*Re: Protected 18650s that fit ZebraLight SC600?*

That sucks about the batteries not fitting. I'm using AW 3100mah cells which all (I have 4) fit fine in my SC600w with lanyard attachment. Also fit fine in my H600Fw.


----------



## Replay13 (Nov 3, 2012)

*Re: Protected 18650s that fit ZebraLight SC600?*

Anyone with dial calipers want to measure the width of these batteries that you have. Also it would be nice to have some measurements on the ID (inter diameter) of different SC600 flashlights. If I understand right, it is the width (diameter) of some batteries that is the problem. That should help us all out in getting different battery choices that will fit. Most of the batteries that I see listed are re-wrapped Panasonic, some fit and some don't. So its either variation in the batteries or flashlights or both.

I have a SC600 on my wish list to santa, and I will be ordering batteries + charger soon too.

Thanks everyone for your time,
James


----------



## moozooh (Nov 3, 2012)

*Re: Protected 18650s that fit ZebraLight SC600?*

If the width is the problem, firmly roll the battery against a hard surface for a few minutes. The wrapping might be overly loose or thick, so that might help flattening it; I read the method in another thread. I'm afraid it's the length that is the problem, though.


----------



## Replay13 (Nov 3, 2012)

*Re: Protected 18650s that fit ZebraLight SC600?*



moozooh said:


> I'm afraid it's the length that is the problem, though.



OK, that makes more sense if they are adding a circuit to the battery and re-wrapping it. I'm just the rookie here with no SC600 and no batteries (yet). I do have a Zebralight SC51 that I really like and I'm looking forward to its big brother! So that brings up another idea/question... if some of the batteries are a little bit too long, maybe a copper spacer washer in the end cap would make the tube that much longer and let the end cap make the contact and we could use any battery? Maybe even a steel washer, I'm not sure what the case is made of and its part of the circuit.

Wouldn't that be better then having two perfectly good expensive batteries go to waste, or am I way off again,
James


----------



## flame2000 (Nov 3, 2012)

*Re: Protected 18650s that fit ZebraLight SC600?*



moozooh said:


> If the width is the problem, firmly roll the battery against a hard surface for a few minutes. The wrapping might be overly loose or thick, so that might help flattening it; I read the method in another thread. I'm afraid it's the length that is the problem, though.



The length is not a problem. My Xtar 2600 is longer than my Keeppower 3400 visually when placed side by side and the Xtar 2600 can fit into my SC600. I have try the roll method you mentioned but the Keeppower 3400 is just a bit too fat.

For those who want to play safe, just get the Eagletac 3400 as some users had confirmed that it will fit. Or just wait for other users to update on the other 3400 batteries fit.


----------



## cave dave (Nov 4, 2012)

*Re: Protected 18650s that fit ZebraLight SC600?*

I imagine the Zebralight brand 3100 would fit without any issues.


----------



## Johan (Nov 4, 2012)

*Re: Protected 18650s that fit ZebraLight SC600?*



cave dave said:


> I imagine the Zebralight brand 3100 would fit without any issues.



I would imagine so. Would have purchased one in a heartbeat if they were 3400mah. Instead I purchased a Redilast 3400mah. Will test it out when it gets here.


----------



## NCF8710 (Nov 4, 2012)

*Re: Protected 18650s that fit ZebraLight SC600?*



Replay13 said:


> Anyone with dial calipers want to measure the width of these batteries that you have. Also it would be nice to have some measurements on the ID (inter diameter) of different SC600 flashlights. If I understand right, it is the width (diameter) of some batteries that is the problem. That should help us all out in getting different battery choices that will fit. Most of the batteries that I see listed are re-wrapped Panasonic, some fit and some don't. So its either variation in the batteries or flashlights or both.
> 
> I have a SC600 on my wish list to santa, and I will be ordering batteries + charger soon too.
> 
> ...



I'm using a Panasonic CGR 18650CH cell in my SC600 light. The OD of the two cells I have is 0.714" (18.14mm). The ID of my SC600 is 0.721" (18.31mm). The cells fit easily, but there isn't much space between the cell and the case.


----------



## Fireclaw18 (Nov 4, 2012)

*Re: Protected 18650s that fit ZebraLight SC600?*



cave dave said:


> I imagine the Zebralight brand 3100 would fit without any issues.



Yes, I received a couple 3100 mah Zebralight 18650s. They fit perfectly. :twothumbs


----------



## how2 (Nov 4, 2012)

*Re: Best Battery for Zebralight SC600*

Panasonic call them batteries

http://industrial.panasonic.com/www-cgi/jvcr13pz.cgi?E+BA+3+ACA4001+NCR18650+7+WW


----------



## Replay13 (Nov 6, 2012)

*Re: Best Battery for Zebralight SC600*

Ok, my concern of battery fit is solved. Z/L had the batteries in stock so I ordered the 3100's from them when I ordered my SC600, that way I got free shipping on both. I also have the Xtar WP2 II charger on the way. Waiting for a flashlight is like waiting for night to use it!


----------



## flame2000 (Nov 8, 2012)

*Re: Best Battery for Zebralight SC600*

Any other 3400mAh battery that can fit into the SC600 beside the Eagletac 3400?
Keeppower 3400 is out cos they are a tiny bit too fat!

I'm waiting for feedback on other 3400 cell like the International outdoor, Xtar, Efest, Redilast.


----------



## jerelect (Nov 13, 2012)

I can say I just recieved 2 3400mAh batteries made by Eagletac and both fit and work fine.:thumbsup:


----------



## Johan (Nov 16, 2012)

*Re: Best Battery for Zebralight SC600*



flame2000 said:


> Any other 3400mAh battery that can fit into the SC600 beside the Eagletac 3400?
> Keeppower 3400 is out cos they are a tiny bit too fat!
> 
> I'm waiting for feedback on other 3400 cell like the International outdoor, Xtar, Efest, Redilast.



My zebralight sc600 just arrived in the mail today. I had a Redilast 3400mah already charged up and waiting.

...

...

FITS GREAT!! Nice and bright!


----------



## oeL (Dec 1, 2012)

*Re: Best Battery for Zebralight SC600*

To add some 18650 to the list...
Enerpower+ 3400: too thick even after removing the sticker, you risk of not getting it off any more
Enerpower+ 2900/3C: remove the sticker. Tight, but they fit and can be removed easily again.
LG ICR18650D1: fit perfectly. According to the German http://www.taschenlampen-forum.de/zebralight/6916-laufzeittest-zebralight-sc600-2.html they provide excellent runtime. I'm just a bit scared about the cut-off voltage of 2,7 V. Might be perfect for Panasonics, but for the LGs I believe having heard of 3 V as lowest rated voltage.

Tested with the current SC600W, received yesterday directly from Zebralight


----------



## Mar (Dec 1, 2012)

*Re: Best Battery for Zebralight SC600*

3400 Dark Matter fit.


----------



## oeL (Feb 9, 2013)

*Re: Best Battery for Zebralight SC600*

Could someone already verify if the AW 3400 fit?


----------



## Badbeams3 (Feb 9, 2013)

*Re: Best Battery for Zebralight SC600*

Eagletac 3100 and 3400 fit fine in mine as well...


----------



## kwak (Feb 10, 2013)

*Re: Best Battery for Zebralight SC600*

Mines one of the early version (the later ones had larger internal diameter battery tubes) and i can JUST barely fit a AW 2600mAh in mine.
Nothing any larger (protected) fits.


----------



## neutralwhite (Feb 16, 2013)

*Re: Best Battery for Zebralight SC600*

im wondering now what now will fit in the new MkII.
was about to order some AW 2600's , even some Fenix ARB L2's but was advised to wait, till the tubing size is confirmed / flashlight released, and see from there.
thanks.


----------



## Changchung (Feb 17, 2013)

neutralwhite said:


> im wondering now what now will fit in the new MkII.
> was about to order some AW 2600's , even some Fenix ARB L2's but was advised to wait, till the tubing size is confirmed / flashlight released, and see from there.
> thanks.



You stored private message is full... Clean it...


Sent from my phone with camera with flash and internet on it...


----------



## oeL (Feb 23, 2013)

*Re: Best Battery for Zebralight SC600*

AW 3400 fits perfectly, even without removing the sticker.


----------



## neutralwhite (Feb 23, 2013)

*Re: Best Battery for Zebralight SC600*

thanks, would that be a better battery than the 3100?.
where can i compare these two?.
i see nothing on HKJ compare chart, and AW only has 3100's.

thanks.



oeL said:


> AW 3400 fits perfectly, even without removing the sticker.


----------



## TEEJ (Feb 23, 2013)

*Re: Best Battery for Zebralight SC600*



neutralwhite said:


> thanks, would that be a better battery than the 3100?.
> where can i compare these two?.
> i see nothing on HKJ compare chart, and AW only has 3100's.
> 
> thanks.



There is a larger difference between say the 2900's and 3100's, and the 3400's. The 3400's use a slightly different chemistry, and can support high drain amp flows better, in addition to having a higher mah.

As most better lights have protection circuits that cut them off or restrict higher draw modes, etc, when the cell drops below a pre-set limit, say 2.5 v to 3.2 v depending on the light...a higher starting point (higher mah), means the light runs longer before hitting that point.

So, for example, if they all start at ~ 4.2 v, and all drop to ~ 3 v, the differences are related to how much juice they can supply, at what amp flow, as they drop from 4.2 to 3 v.

Some can supply a lot of amp hours if the amp draw is less than an amp, but can't exceed a say a 3 amp draw for more than a few minutes...but a 2 amp draw might be sustainable for an hour, and so forth.

IE: A 3100 might power a light almost as long as a 3400 in a 700 ma application, but at say 4 amps, the 3400 might provide power long after the 3100 was out of breath.


If you had a goat and a horse to pull your cart, and both could take the cart to the market to get supplies...

...both might be fine pulling the empty cart to the market...as its light when empty...and say both might get there in an hour.

On the way BACK, loaded with provisions, the goat will now be struggling to pull the heavy cart, but the horse is going the same speed as when it was empty. The horse needs an hour to get back too, as he can handle the added load. The goat will pull as long as it can, and then collapse, unable to pull the loaded cart any further w/o a rest...or, going much slower, etc.


The 3400 is more like the horse, the 3100 is more like the goat.


----------



## moozooh (Apr 2, 2014)

*Re: Best Battery for Zebralight SC600*

Tested on SC600 II L2:

KeepPower 3400: doesn't fit without a lot of hassle, doesn't get out without even more hassle;
AmpMax 3400: fits okay, requires a bit of shaking to get out;
Orbtronic 3400: fits very well, easy to get out.


----------



## GTRmiami (Apr 3, 2014)

*Re: Best Battery for Zebralight SC600*



moozooh said:


> Tested on SC600 II L2:
> 
> KeepPower 3400: doesn't fit without a lot of hassle, doesn't get out without even more hassle;
> AmpMax 3400: fits okay, requires a bit of shaking to get out;
> Orbtronic 3400: fits very well, easy to get out.



Are those protected or unprotected?


----------



## moozooh (Apr 3, 2014)

*Re: Best Battery for Zebralight SC600*

Protected of course. I don't think any of those release unprotected batteries and still label them with their brand.


----------



## Charles L. (Apr 3, 2014)

*Re: Best Battery for Zebralight SC600*

It's all relative, I suppose. Of the three brands of protected 3400's I own, I found the Orbtronic 3400 workable but tight. Eagletac 3400 fit more easily, and AW 3400 is easiest of the three.


----------

