# Maelstrom S12 Factory VS Maelstrom S12 Direct Drive on IMR 26650



## vinhnguyen54 (Apr 14, 2011)

First the beam shots....

S12 Factory VS S12DD






S12 inside





Outdoor S12DD Left VS S12Factory Right, Fresh charged IMR 26650





1min





2min





3min





4min





5min





6min





7min





8min 





9min





10min





11min





12min





13min





14min





15min





16min





Restart after 15min in fridge cool down





Restart after 15min in fridge cool down Exposed Down






Observation:
1) DD is 37% brighter than factory for the fist 2 minutes. After 2 minutes the edge is not distinct.
2) At 16 minutes DD appear twice as bright as Factory due to extreme thermal regualtion in factory unit
3) 15min cool down restart shows that DD output remain the same while Factory is now brighter
4) Tests were done with fresh charged Tactical LED Orange IMR 26650

Conlusion:
1) IMHO 37% brightness increase for 2 minutes is not worth the mod! 
2) Deactivating the thermal sensor is the best way to maintain the 800 lumen threshold for as long as possible.

Send me your questions and comments


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## vinhnguyen54 (Apr 14, 2011)

I am currently testing both S12 reassembled to factory condition but with one disconnected from the resistors to confirm that its indeed the thermal sensor.

Edit: it is confirmed that the tiny resistor is indeed the thermal sensor! 

Here is a photo after 7 minutes with thermal sensor deactivated versus factory condition. They started about about the same brightness


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## LichtAn! (Apr 14, 2011)

Can't wait to get home and actually see the pics. (imagehosters blocked at work)


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## LEDburn (Apr 14, 2011)

Can you tell us if the light got very hot at all when you disabled the thermal sensor and ran it for a while?


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## badtziscool (Apr 14, 2011)

I wonder why is it that the unmodded light is brighter than the DD after the run and 15 min cool down in the fridge. Do you think its because the cell was drained from the 15min of DD current draw?


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## bigchelis (Apr 14, 2011)

Since the Direct Drive unit is dependant on the voltage input including cell sag you have to tell us the tailcap current so we can estimate the watts.

In my experience a stock SST-90 direct drive will be 2A~4A off an IMR 26650. After you break it in via overdrive cycles, the vF will majically lower and you should be at 6A~7A. Your lumens will increase significantly.

Break in:
Put 5V or so input run for 3 min (yes, alot of current and heat) make sure no blue tint shift. I use 4 NiMH C Tenergy cells for this and get 10A tailcap....50watts OUCH.

Repeat this proces about 4~5 times (let it cool 100% before you begin another cycle) and you will get almost double the tailcap current when you go back to your IMR 26650 and the lumens will nearly double too.

bigC


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## vinhnguyen54 (Apr 14, 2011)

Both light got hot but the DD is slightly hotter. Both were not too hot to hold though. And thE lights cool down quickly when you hold it in your hand too. I don't belive heat is a very big problem.


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## vinhnguyen54 (Apr 14, 2011)

Both lights did not get too hot to hold after 17 minutes during the test. For some reason the DD only felt a little hotter. Holding the light make the temperature drop quickly though. Also the S12 heat sink is a very efficient design. Aside from the heat sink head, the entire body also helps with heat sinking. I am sure there are other custom SST90 lights that are driven harder with less heat sinking and are still running. We just need to use our head a little more when we deactivate the thermal sensor. Either way, I do not believe heat is too much of a problem in the S12.


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## vinhnguyen54 (Apr 14, 2011)

Big C, 

1) Can you break in a SST90 with 3 Alkaline D cells? 1.67X3 is about 5V. I asked because I don't have any C NiMH cells.
2) I did notice that DD only pulled around 3.5-4A at the tail cap off IMR 26650. I was so pretty disappointed.
3) Would breaking in the SST90 hurt the LED in anyway? Any side effects? Would everything return to normal if we do decide to hook it back it to factory condition later? 
4) After breaking in do you think the SST90 could keep the current draw from 6-7A for longer than 10 minutes? 

Thanks!


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## recDNA (Apr 14, 2011)

It looks worth it to me. Not only is it brighter but the hotspot seems more compact. Why is that?
I'm not a huge fan of regulation. I would prefer to use a protected 26650 though just to avoid draining the battery too low. No such thing right?

You say the DD is twice as bright after 16 minutes but never show the beamshots! I would like to SEE the horrible thermal regulation in action.


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## vinhnguyen54 (Apr 14, 2011)

recDNA said:


> It looks worth it to me. Not only is it brighter but the hotspot seems more compact. Why is that?
> I'm not a huge fan of regulation. I would prefer to use a protected 26650 though just to avoid draining the battery too low. No such thing right?
> 
> You say the DD is twice as bright after 16 minutes but never show the beamshots! I would like to SEE the horrible thermal regulation in action.



The beam shot is labeled 16min above...You are not looking hard enough 

4sevens said that the driver is pushing 5A but I am only getting around 3.5-3.8. Even DD is only pushing 3.5-4A. Arghhhhhhhhhhhh

I Dont have 4C nimh battery to try what Big C suggested...


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## bigchelis (Apr 14, 2011)

vinhnguyen54 said:


> The beam shot is labeled 16min above...You are not looking hard enough
> 
> 4sevens said that the driver is pushing 5A but I am only getting around 3.5-3.8. Even DD is only pushing 3.5-4A. Arghhhhhhhhhhhh
> 
> I Dont have 4C nimh battery to try what Big C suggested...




I will send you some NiMH CR123 sized cells that can take 30A!!!!!!!!! 4 of them should fit in that body, but granted you will not use the tailcap and just put a spacer to center the cells. 


FYI: At 5.5A~6.5A my 2D Mag SST-90 is almost too hot to hold after 3minutes. I also manipulate the current by putting thinner or fatter wires. This changes well over 1A the current and it works great to control the current in DD builds.

bigC


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## recDNA (Apr 14, 2011)

vinhnguyen54 said:


> The beam shot is labeled 16min above...You are not looking hard enough
> 
> 4sevens said that the driver is pushing 5A but I am only getting around 3.5-3.8. Even DD is only pushing 3.5-4A. Arghhhhhhhhhhhh
> 
> I Dont have 4C nimh battery to try what Big C suggested...


 
Oops I missed it! I expected the DD to look twice as bright. It doesn't to my eyes. In fact the one on the right looks brighter to me.

Sent from my Droid using Tapatalk


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## vinhnguyen54 (Apr 14, 2011)

Big C,

You PM me the answers to post number 9 and I think its really good info for everyone. Would you mind if I post it here?


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## bigchelis (Apr 14, 2011)

*What is the Tailcap current on the S12 with factory driver??????*

*With topped off IMR 26650 please*.

Post my PM freely.

bigC


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## vinhnguyen54 (Apr 14, 2011)

ig C, 

1) Can you break in a SST90 with 3 Alkaline D cells? 1.67X3 is about 5V. I asked because I don't have any C NiMH cells.

No. 3 Alkaline D cells are 4.5V input, but under load you are lucky if you have 3V input. Thats why DD lights are not bright with Allkalines. They just sag too much. Batteries sag under load/current. 

2) I did notice that DD only pulled around 3.5-4A at the tail cap off IMR 26650. I was so pretty disappointed.

Yup, Its as 99% of what everybody gets. Some get 2A, so consider yourself lucky.
You are probably seeing 800 OTF though, but will easily double that once you break it in.



3) Would breaking in the SST90 hurt the LED in anyway? Any side effects? Would everything return to normal if we do decide to hook it back it to factory condition later? 

Nothing will happen to the LED, only thing is you lower the vF permenantly but thats what you want!
Only side effect is the batteries drain faster and it gets hot faster due to the 6~8A off IMR 26550.
If you put the stock driven back on then its regulated like factory, but it would still be a tad brighter because you altered the vF, which is still a great thing.
 
4) After breaking in do you think the SST90 could keep the current draw from 6-7A for longer than 10 minutes?

You would probably only get the current that high for about 10min, then it would settle at 5.5A or so which is still alot and enought for well over 1200 OTF. 

Thanks!


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## vinhnguyen54 (Apr 14, 2011)

Factory S12 settle 3.55A on fresh charged IMR at tail cap


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## brandocommando (Apr 14, 2011)

recDNA said:


> I would prefer to use a protected 26650 though just to avoid draining the battery too low. No such thing right?


 
These batteries were designed for the S12, and they are protected.

For some reason they do not mention it on their website, :shrug:... but they are.


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## vinhnguyen54 (Apr 14, 2011)

brandocommando said:


> These batteries were designed for the S12, and they are protected.
> 
> For some reason they do not mention it on their website, :shrug:... but they are.



4sevens 26650 are protected. Orange tactical LED IMR are not.


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## Lighthearted1 (Apr 15, 2011)

vinhnguyen54 said:


> Send me your questions and comments



Thanks for the info and pics!

I am puzzled somewhat. How can the Olight SR90 make 2200 lumens, but this S12 can't ????


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## vinhnguyen54 (Apr 15, 2011)

Lighthearted1 said:


> Thanks for the info and pics!
> 
> I am puzzled somewhat. How can the Olight SR90 make 2200 lumens, but this S12 can't ????


 The s12 is pushed at less than 4a while the sr90 is pushed to 9a


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## Lighthearted1 (Apr 15, 2011)

vinhnguyen54 said:


> The s12 is pushed at less than 4a while the sr90 is pushed to 9a


 
How did they do that? 
IF direct drive doesn't get S12 to 9A on IMR...... then how??


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## bigchelis (Apr 15, 2011)

Lighthearted1 said:


> How did they do that?
> IF direct drive doesn't get S12 to 9A on IMR...... then how??



The SR-90 has a Driver and proprietary cell

It actually made 1480-1200 real out the front lumens from turn on to 3-4minutes, which makes it a failure. I still like it's 95k lux though


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## vinhnguyen54 (Apr 15, 2011)

bigchelis said:


> The SR-90 has a Driver and proprietary cell
> 
> It actually made 1480-1200 real out the front lumens from turn on to 3-4minutes, which makes it a failure. I still like it's 95k lux though



I tried to burn in my S12 with 6V AC adapter but the adapter only pushed the LED to 4.5A. It did burn in a little though. S12DD is now pulling 4.2A instead of 3.8A like before.


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## Stephen Wallace (Apr 15, 2011)

bigchelis said:


> I will send you some NiMH CR123 sized cells that can take 30A!!!!!!!!! 4 of them should fit in that body, but granted you will not use the tailcap and just put a spacer to center the cells.
> 
> bigC



Sounds interesting! :huh:

Are these freely available? Do you have the brand or dealer details for these?

Thanks
Stephen


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## bigchelis (Apr 15, 2011)

Stephen Wallace said:


> Sounds interesting! :huh:
> 
> Are these freely available? Do you have the brand or dealer details for these?
> 
> ...


 
I call them CR123 size NiMH cells, but they are a bit shorter in reall life. They appear to be freaking awesome. 
http://www.batteryjunction.com/intellect-1600-23a.html

In my Tests:
My SST-50 light would pull 3A at the tail with IMR 18650, but when I used 3 of these the tailcap current was 5.5A or so. So, they appear to deliver more juice then even IMR 18650 cells. I used these cells to test certain lights, but they have proven to be too much for most emitters to handle in that they give me way more current then I wanted for my DD builds. The SSt-90 should benefit from these significantly.

bigC


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## Stephen Wallace (Apr 15, 2011)

Many thanks.


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## Bass (Apr 15, 2011)

Great thread! Nice job vinhnguyen54, on the mod and bigC for the info. It's amazing what you guys get up to!!


lovecpf


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## tre (Apr 15, 2011)

bigchelis said:


> Break in:
> Put 5V or so input run for 3 min (yes, alot of current and heat) make sure no blue tint shift. I use 4 NiMH C Tenergy cells for this and get 10A tailcap....50watts OUCH.
> 
> Repeat this proces about 4~5 times (let it cool 100% before you begin another cycle) and you will get almost double the tailcap current when you go back to your IMR 26650 and the lumens will nearly double too.
> ...



I have no idea how you figured this out but that is a heck of a trick. Going to try this.


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## bigchelis (Apr 15, 2011)

tre said:


> I have no idea how you figured this out but that is a heck of a trick. Going to try this.




Remember to try it againts a *white wall* because you will definitely see any tint change. Angry blue turn it off immediately. White = keep going. Good luck!

I did this to SST-50 and SST-90 lights that are direct drive and to this day the results are spectacular. 

bigC


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## recDNA (Apr 15, 2011)

bigchelis said:


> I call them CR123 size NiMH cells, but they are a bit shorter in reall life. They appear to be freaking awesome.
> http://www.batteryjunction.com/intellect-1600-23a.html
> 
> In my Tests:
> ...



Do you soldier them into battery packs and charge them all together?


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## recDNA (Apr 15, 2011)

I had no idea the 4Sevens were protected. That is more useful for me (in my own build). Do you know if they are temp protected/over discharge protected/ over charge protected or all 3?


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## stienke (Apr 20, 2011)

How can whe dissamble the thermal resistor?,can you explain it by a picture maybe?
Can you only break in the Led without the driver?,or when you use the light normally the led is breaking in?(after about 5 hours)


GJR


BTW, I get 2.2A from the tail with a fresh IMR/standard batterie


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## bigchelis (Apr 20, 2011)

recDNA said:


> Do you soldier them into battery packs and charge them all together?



I charge one at a time and use them normally....

I have the ones with tabs and just cut the tabs to leave just enough to make them like a nipple on top so the positive side is somewhat a buttontop now. The flat ones without tabs can be used too, but you might need solder applied to the positive side to make them buttontop/nipple top.

bigC


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## PayBack (Apr 20, 2011)

LichtAn! said:


> Can't wait to get home and actually see the pics. (imagehosters blocked at work)


 
+1 it's such a pain in the <BLOCKED>


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## vinhnguyen54 (Apr 20, 2011)

Just desolder and insulate the red and black leads that connect to the tiny resistor in pic number 2. 


stienke said:


> How can whe dissamble the thermal resistor?,can you explain it by a picture maybe?
> Can you only break in the Led without the driver?,or when you use the light normally the led is breaking in?(after about 5 hours)
> 
> 
> ...


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## Got Lumens? (Apr 21, 2011)

Vin,
Do you leave them disconnected, or do you connect the two leads from the resistor together?
GL


vinhnguyen54 said:


> Just desolder and insulate the red and black leads that connect to the tiny resistor in pic number 2.


 



vinhnguyen54 said:


> Leave them disconnected and insulated.



Thank You


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## vinhnguyen54 (Apr 21, 2011)

Got Lumens? said:


> Vin,
> Do you leave them disconnected, or do you connect the two leads from the resistor together?
> GL


 
Leave them disconnected and insulated.


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## Patriot (Apr 24, 2011)

Great thread with some really eye opening information! Thanks for posting these findings Vin and BigC!


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## vinhnguyen54 (Apr 24, 2011)

I am still in the process of burning in my S12 LED. Just ordered 4 C size nihm battery and still charging to do my first real burn in. 

Questions: Since the SST90 in the SR90 is driven so hard does it mean that all SR90 LED are burnt in? If yes Can I just use a SR90 to burn in my SST90 LEDS?


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## Patriot (May 1, 2011)

I'm really curious how the burn in is going. Any results yet?

Thanks!


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## Allex (May 2, 2011)

So some questions:
IMR 26650, do I have to use this sell to have same results as you when desoldering the two wires, or will I get same results with the 4S original cell?
"3) 15min cool down restart shows that DD output remain the same while Factory is now brighter"
Do you mean that both lights where cooled down? And why is factory brighter ans for how long does this maintain?

So why did 4sevens made that regulation if no harm is done to the diode in DD?


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## vinhnguyen54 (May 2, 2011)

Patriot said:


> I'm really curious how the burn in is going. Any results yet?
> 
> Thanks!


 
I ordered the wrong batteries to be used for burning so I gave up on it. I don't want to spend more money at the moment to get more batteries to burn the LED.


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## vinhnguyen54 (May 2, 2011)

Allex said:


> So some questions:
> IMR 26650, do I have to use this sell to have same results as you when desoldering the two wires, or will I get same results with the 4S original cell?
> "3) 15min cool down restart shows that DD output remain the same while Factory is now brighter"
> Do you mean that both lights where cooled down? And why is factory brighter ans for how long does this maintain?
> ...



De-soldering the two little wires to the little resistors just deactivate the thermal sensor. Thus, no more thermal regulation. This does not make the light direct drive. there is still current regulation. The type of cells you use makes little difference as there is current regulation. IMR major advantage is with direct drive. 

Both lights were cooled down. The DD brightness remain the same of course. The factory is brighter because the light cooled down so thermal regulation is less aggressive. Current regulaiton now has its advantage as voltage drops in the DD setup. 

IMO 4Sevens put thermal regulation to make the light fool proof. Say you left it on while transport in your suitcase or the light was used in the hot desert. Anyhow, IMO I think its good to deactivate the thermal regulation so you can get the 800 lumen for as logn as possible. If you watch the light carefully then overheat shouldn't be a problem. The light did not appeared to be too hot even with the thermal sensor removed running until the battery was drained when I held it. 

Anyways, do all mods at your own risk!


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## Allex (May 2, 2011)

Thank you, what I´m not sure of now is how/what you do to make it DD? I'm missing something here. What kind of steps is necessarily? 
Also, 
"De-soldering the two little wires to the little resistors just deactivate the thermal sensor"
and
"The factory is brighter because the light cooled down so thermal regulation is less aggressive."

Should't the modded head be as bright as the factory in the above? I mean, because it doesn't have any connection with thermal sensor? I'm a bit confused with this...


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## vinhnguyen54 (May 2, 2011)

Allex said:


> Thank you, what I´m not sure of now is how/what you do to make it DD? I'm missing something here. What kind of steps is necessarily?
> Also,
> "De-soldering the two little wires to the little resistors just deactivate the thermal sensor"
> and
> ...



DD drains the battery faster so it dims faster. Factory is current controlled so voltage drop is compensated.


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## Allex (May 2, 2011)

I see, any tips on where I can read on how to mod it to Direct drive? New with this things...


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## vinhnguyen54 (May 2, 2011)

Allex said:


> I see, any tips on where I can read on how to mod it to Direct drive? New with this things...


 
I can give u tips. But u should not dd unless u gonna burn in the led


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## pageyjim (May 2, 2011)

Vin are you going to start burning in your led's on your mods?


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## vinhnguyen54 (May 2, 2011)

I ordered The wrong batteries so now I gave up. I don't want to buy more batteries.


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## richpalm (May 3, 2011)

Does burning in only make a difference with SST's or does this work for Crees also?

Rich


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## carl (May 3, 2011)

Dear Vin,

I don't know how far you've gone in disassembling the S12 and the tailcap but I had a few questions:

1) If we try and put a FET switch in there (I believe one was being sold in the custom section of CPF to replace the McClicky) to handle the amps (I assume it has the same thickness as a McClicky) will that work? Or is the McClicky too thick, thus causing the tailcap to possibly bottom out on the battery tube sooner and leave tailcap threads exposed?

2) Is the electronics at the head removable? The LED appears to be held in place by 2 screws for centering it but what about the circuitry behind it?

3) Can the circuitry be changed from 2 mode to 3 mode?

Thanks again for your input.


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## vinhnguyen54 (May 3, 2011)

carl said:


> Dear Vin,
> 
> I don't know how far you've gone in disassembling the S12 and the tailcap but I had a few questions:
> 
> ...



1) I know nothing about switches
2) The LED is removable. 
3) The electronics is almost impossible to replace since the head is glued.


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## carl (May 3, 2011)

OK Thanks.


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## Patriot (May 4, 2011)

vinhnguyen54 said:


> I can give u tips. But u should not dd unless u gonna burn in the led


 

If you're going to provide tips on how to mod your S12 for direct drive, please do so here. Many of us will be interested in hearing your procedure. I was under the impression that removal of the thermal resistor automatically allows the LED pull the cell's voltage (4.2V on fresh cell) all of the time, even after several minutes. I'm obviously wrong though after reading your recent posts.


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## vinhnguyen54 (May 4, 2011)

Clarification:

The S12 has two kind of regulation:
1) Thermal Regulation: Function to monitor heat. If heat goes up then current goes down. If heat goes down then current goes up. The light start out cold so LED current is at MAX. As it heats up thermal regulation reduce current to lower the temperature to protect the LED. 

2) Current Regulation: Function to deliver the max amount of current to the LED for as long as possible. With a Direct Drive set up, current starts super high, but drops as voltage drop. Current regulation allow the LED to draw maximal current even when voltage drop to maintain max brightness for as long as possible before the sudden death. Sudden death means perfect regulation. The S12 current regulation is OK, but not the best out there. Therefore, there will be a short period of constant current before the light starts to dim slowly.

Deactivating the thermal regulation by removing the leads to the tiny resistor cause the light to think that its always cold. Thus, only current regulation is left in play. A direct drive setup pulls around 4A max off of an IMR while a factory setup pulls about 3.7A. This is barely any differences. The DD 4A quickly drops too! The advantage of DD output VS thermal deactivation is only good for about 3 minutes. 

If you want to DD I strongly urge you to burn in the LED. I am going to order the batteries as BigC suggested and try out the burn in with those. 

How to DD an S12 at your own risk:

1) Remove the head from the battery tube with lots of tape and a vise. This might be very hard to do. A buddy of mine attempted this unsuccessfully. Some S12 are glue loosely so you might get lucky! 

2) Remove the bezel and reflector. Drill a hole from either the positive or negative predrilled hole down through the circuit board. Make sure to look carefully so u don't drill over any components or circuitry. Remove the positive lead to the LED and insulate it. Use thick solid copper strands to connect the positive connection on the LED to the positive post in the middle of the light through the hole you just drilled. You will need to make a custom long solder tip to get inside the tube. If this is super unclear then let me know and I might just make a video.


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## bigchelis (May 4, 2011)

vinhnguyen54,

I have been really busy as of lately. I still have those CR123 NiMH cells I will send you so, you can burn-in that SST-90 and double those OTF lumens and report back with your findings.

I will try and go today to the post office and you should have those cells by Friday/Saturday. I need to see you finalize this project as I am really intrested in seeing a S12 Maximized to its full potential.


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## vinhnguyen54 (May 4, 2011)

bigchelis said:


> vinhnguyen54,
> 
> I have been really busy as of lately. I still have those CR123 NiMH cells I will send you so, you can burn-in that SST-90 and double those OTF lumens and report back with your findings.
> 
> I will try and go today to the post office and you should have those cells by Friday/Saturday. I need to see you finalize this project as I am really intrested in seeing a S12 Maximized to its full potential.



Yay!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Thank BigC. Can't wait!


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## Patriot (May 4, 2011)

Really kind of you to do that BigC! I'm eager to see how this goes for vinhnguyen as I'll probably do the same thing if his results are the same as yours.


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## bigchelis (May 5, 2011)

Okay good update.

I sent you 5 NiMH CR123 sized. You can top off each one and make sure they are all at 1.43V each, then proceed with your break-in process. For the actual break-in you only need to use 4 of these, but I sent an extra one just in case one is bad. Murphys law.

For kicks, tests 3 of these cells first. In my tests the tailcap current is always higher then using IMR 18650 or IMR 26500's eventhough the voltage input is the same. 


Good luck,
bigC


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## carl (May 6, 2011)

Vin,

Thank you for taking the time to explain the DD procedure. I have just a few questions:

1) I am confused as usual. You mentioned being able to remove the battery tube but you said removing the electronics from the head was going to be impossible. Is this because the electronics cannot be accessed from the battery tube end even after you remove the battery tube? Is the electronics glued or potted into the head?

2) Also, you mentioned removing the bezel ring/reflector and drilling through either the Positive terminal or Negative terminal hole. If so, what is the purpose for removing the battery tube on the opposite end of the head? 

Thanks for your help.


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## vinhnguyen54 (May 6, 2011)

I cant wait!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



bigchelis said:


> Okay good update.
> 
> I sent you 5 NiMH CR123 sized. You can top off each one and make sure they are all at 1.43V each, then proceed with your break-in process. For the actual break-in you only need to use 4 of these, but I sent an extra one just in case one is bad. Murphys law.
> 
> ...


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## vinhnguyen54 (May 6, 2011)

Carl,

1) Removing the tube from the head is almost impossible unless you are super lucky with one that has little glue. If you cant remove the tube then getting to the electronics is certainly difficult/impossible. 

2) This procedure is for people who cant remove their tube.


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## carl (May 6, 2011)

Thanks Vin. So you couldn't remove the battery tube on either of your S12 lights? Did you try the ice-in-the-tube and hot-blow-dryer-on-the-head method? Or maybe some sort of solvent to soak at the joint prior to attempting unscrewing the tube. 

I wonder if there is a Loctite solvent on the market. I know that in general, applying heat to the joint is the standard method for unscrewing a Loctite joint. How much heat is required, who knows. A blowdryer may not be enough. Maybe boiling water but this may not be good if you want to save the electronics.

Thanks again for your input.

I just found this. Thanks.

http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb...sassemble-epoxy-loctite-glued-bezel&p=3269277


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## vinhnguyen54 (May 7, 2011)

carl said:


> Thanks Vin. So you couldn't remove the battery tube on either of your S12 lights? Did you try the ice-in-the-tube and hot-blow-dryer-on-the-head method? Or maybe some sort of solvent to soak at the joint prior to attempting unscrewing the tube.
> 
> I wonder if there is a Loctite solvent on the market. I know that in general, applying heat to the joint is the standard method for unscrewing a Loctite joint. How much heat is required, who knows. A blowdryer may not be enough. Maybe boiling water but this may not be good if you want to save the electronics.
> 
> ...



I saw my friend attempted and I gave up...If anyone found a super good way please post here. 

Direct Drive Update:

I got the batteries from BigC and have initiated the burn in process. 4 of those little CR123 1.2 V push 8.5A at full charge. I can only burn in the light 30 seconds at a time. The lights get too hot to hold so I just want to be on the safe side. Originally an IMR 26650 push 3.8-4A Max. After 6X30sec burn in I have gotten the light to pull 4.7A! Yayyyyyyyyyy I have to recharge the batteries after 3X30sec burn in. The battereis also gets hot after the 3rd consecutive burn in. I will continue to burn in and hopefully reach 6.5A as BigC did. Pray for me ;-) 

IMO This light can run reliability at 5A constantly if you hold it in your hand....The light does not get too hot to hold at 5A. Mounted on a bike being air cooled this light can be run at 6A constantly. These are just my opinions again.


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## xed888 (May 8, 2011)

hey vinh,

Thanks for all the work you've done on the S12. Am I right in saying that there;s no point burning in the SST 90 if the thermal regulation is still switched on? I have one and I would like it to draw more Amps from the batt for more lumens but the torch is unmodified.


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## vinhnguyen54 (May 8, 2011)

xed888 said:


> hey vinh,
> 
> Thanks for all the work you've done on the S12. Am I right in saying that there;s no point burning in the SST 90 if the thermal regulation is still switched on? I have one and I would like it to draw more Amps from the batt for more lumens but the torch is unmodified.



u might gain 20 insinlgnificant lumen.


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## xed888 (May 8, 2011)

LOL thanks for the reply. Quick question: If I use it as a bike light, the thermal regulation shouldn't kick in as hard as when I'm holding it in my hand. Therefore, the S12 should keep 800 lumens for longer. 

Am I right in saying so?


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## Got Lumens? (May 8, 2011)

I would say Yes. A review that answers your question here.
GL




xed888 said:


> LOL thanks for the reply. Quick question: If I use it as a bike light, the thermal regulation shouldn't kick in as hard as when I'm holding it in my hand. Therefore, the S12 should keep 800 lumens for longer.
> 
> Am I right in saying so?


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## vinhnguyen54 (May 8, 2011)

Got Lumens? said:


> I would say Yes. A review that answers your question here.
> GL


 U get about 600 if u hold it


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## vinhnguyen54 (May 8, 2011)

Got Lumens? said:


> I would say Yes. A review that answers your question here.
> GL


 U get about 600 if u hold it


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## vinhnguyen54 (May 9, 2011)

Burn in Update!

So I found out that one of the thing I have been doing wrong is not letting the light cool down 100% between burn ins. Anyhow, My light is pulling 5A DD off a 26650 IMR now! Finally into the 5s now. Now 5.5A is the next goal, then 6.0 then 6.5 Ahhhhhh Can't wait! LOL


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## bigchelis (May 10, 2011)

vinhnguyen54 said:


> Burn in Update!
> 
> So I found out that one of the thing I have been doing wrong is not letting the light cool down 100% between burn ins. Anyhow, My light is pulling 5A DD off a 26650 IMR now! Finally into the 5s now. Now 5.5A is the next goal, then 6.0 then 6.5 Ahhhhhh Can't wait! LOL


 


Good job...almost there.

When myself and PCC broke in our SST-90's we used huge copper heatsinks. The hosts was a 3D Mag and the copper heatsink would go all the way down and cover the side switch, so a tailcap switch was devised that could handle the current. Given my copper slug and huge hosts at 6.8A the entire light (especially the bezel) became too hot to hold at 2minutes, but we tested till 3.



In fact, I later pulled back the current to 5.88A (see below) and got nearly identical OTF numbers with alot less heat and thats how I left it.

Besides breaking in the LED, you can also raise the current by using fat/bigger wires. PCC actually discovered this for me. Use really thin wires like 22~26g and you get less current. Use 8~14g wires like the ones designed for car electronics and more current. I would use this as a last resort cause its more work and I found folding fat wires like this in small hosts is a reall PITA.
bigC


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## vinhnguyen54 (May 10, 2011)

7A is in the house baby!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I found out my multimeter leads were not great. I swap leads and read 4.8A which was close to 47 claims 5A on the stock S12. The DD S12 now reads 7A!!!!!!!!!!!!! Photos to come tonight!


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## Patriot (May 10, 2011)

vinhnguyen54 said:


> 7A is in the house baby!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> 
> The DD S12 now reads 7A!!!!!!!!!!!!! Photos to come tonight!



7A!!! That's incredible in a light that size. Can't wait to see these pictures!


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## badtziscool (May 10, 2011)

Wow! Can't wait to see pics on this. 7A at the tail on an SST-90 is gonna be crazy bright!!!


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## Got Lumens? (May 10, 2011)

Vin, Can't wait for the the beams :thumbsup:



vinhnguyen54 said:


> 7A is in the house baby!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> I found out my multimeter leads were not great. I swap leads and read 4.8A which was close to 47 claims 5A on the stock S12. The DD S12 now reads 7A!!!!!!!!!!!!! Photos to come tonight!


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## vinhnguyen54 (May 11, 2011)

OK, so I haven't got the time to take any beam shots. But here is a multimeter reading for now. So far this is what I have observed and my personal opinions:

1) Factory S12 start out at 4.8A but quickly drop to about 3-3.5A after 3 minutes are so. At just 3 minutes we all know the light perform around 400 lumen and may be 600 if you hold it tightly at room temperature. This is ridiculous performance for an SST-90 LED! 

2) DD drive pull 7A on a fresh IMR 26650. This number decline to about 5.5A where it "stabilize" for a long time. I have not confirm how long the decline takes before "stabilization". But I would say long enough to put a grin on your face and impress your friends. 

3) DD does not appear to be too hot to hold. I believe the light can take the heat just fine. 

Should we DD and burn in our S12? If you are a lumen freak then hell yeah! But if you are fine with 800 lumen burst for 3 minutes and 400-600 afterwards then let it be. General purpose user should be happy with their stock S12. Just lumen wise though a TD15X put out nearly as much as a stock S12 with better throw for longer period of time. ...HMMM....Anyhow, I wouldn't buy any SST90 lights for 400-600 lumen. As a flashaholic I have tons of flashlights that have low low mode with extended runtime. But the only 5.5" pocketable flashlight I have that put out 1200(guesstimate at 7A please correct me) OTF is my DD S12. And to be fair I would say even a DD drive S12 would last for at least, and I mean at least a hour off of a 26650.


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## vinhnguyen54 (May 11, 2011)

I don't know how much an SST90 put out at 7A but its a lot brighter than a 4A driven XML....Welll duh!


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## xed888 (May 11, 2011)

vinhnguyen54 said:


> OK, so I haven't got the time to take any beam shots. But here is a multimeter reading for now. So far this is what I have observed and my personal opinions:
> 
> 1) Factory S12 start out at 4.8A but quickly drop to about 3-3.5A after 3 minutes are so. At just 3 minutes we all know the light perform around 400 lumen and may be 600 if you hold it tightly at room temperature. This is ridiculous performance for an SST-90 LED!
> 
> ...


 
Hi
When you say ridiculous performance for the sst 90, did you mean it can perform better or its doing really well at its job?


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## Got Lumens? (May 11, 2011)

Vin,
Awsome results! Congratulations.


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## bigchelis (May 11, 2011)

Hey Vinny,

Good God man 7A.....You know those little NiMH 2/3 aka cr123 sized cells if you topp them off at 1.43V each and use 3 of them in LIEU of the IMR 26650, I bet you can hold 7A for longer periods because they are suppose to be better at high discharge rates.

You might even get more then 7A, when fresh on just 3 of them.

bigC


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## Patriot (May 11, 2011)

xed888 said:


> Hi
> When you say ridiculous performance for the sst 90, did you mean it can perform better or its doing really well at its job?



"Ridiculous performance" for the stock set-up with low current regulation and inhibiting thermal regulation. 4Sevens attempted to make the light fool proof and went overboard, which handicaps the SST-90 to mediocre performance. The stock configuration of the S12 can duplicated with a XM-L light but with better throw and efficiency. It's like taking a Top Fuel motor and running it on alcohol rather than nitro.



I'm sold on this mod. Thanks for the info Vin and BigC!


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## vinhnguyen54 (May 12, 2011)

xed888 said:


> Hi
> When you say ridiculous performance for the sst 90, did you mean it can perform better or its doing really well at its job?


 
Ridiculous because even an XPG-R5 can make 400Lumen. Who needs an SST90 for 400 lumen. IMO, If a light has a SST90 it should be ran at no less than 5A. Which is only 5/9 of the current of what its rated for. SST-90 9A-2200 lumen is more efficient than XML 3A-1000 lumen. Even if the SSt90 is not efficient...it doesn't matter. The LED is made to produce 2000+ lumen and cost $40 per LED. So why extract only much less than half?! With the current circuit in the S12, might as well use a SST50 or XML. I am sorry if I am bashing on the Stock S12....I just feel terrible that such a powerful LED is put to waste.


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## vinhnguyen54 (May 12, 2011)

vinhnguyen54 said:


> Ridiculous because even an XPG-R5 can make 400Lumen. Who needs an SST90 for 400 lumen. IMO, If a light has a SST90 it should be ran at no less than 5A. Which is only 5/9 of the current of what its rated for. SST-90 9A-2200 lumen is more efficient than XML 3A-1000 lumen. Even if the SSt90 is not efficient...it doesn't matter. The LED is made to produce 2000+ lumen and cost $40 per LED. So why extract only much less than half?! With the current circuit in the S12, might as well use a SST50 or XML. I am sorry if I am bashing on the Stock S12....I just feel terrible that such a powerful LED is put to waste.



I think the SST-90 is a very special LED. Its huge and pretty to look at! There are no other LEDs in its classs...Its just mesmerizing to me...LOL This is the same reason why I hate it being under driven! Shame on people who drive corvettes and never exceed 3000 RPMs. (I am just jealous)


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## xed888 (May 12, 2011)

Thanks PAtriot and vinh for your replies. Makes me wanna mod my S12 now!!! Could you do a video post pls pls pls?!?!??!


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## vinhnguyen54 (May 12, 2011)

Beamshots!

The contenders: From left to right---> BC40,TD15X, M3C4 XML, Stock S12, DD S12

Distant control Shot. I am estimating the tree to be about 250 feet away. 






Distant BC40





Distant Td15X





Distant M3C4 XML





Distant Stock S12





Distant DD S12





Near Control Shot: I am estimating the hotspot on the ground to be 125 feet away.

Near BC40 





Near TD15X





Near M3C4 XML





Near Stock S12





Near DDS12





Notes: All batteries are fresh charged. Stock S12 is working at its full 4.8A potential, remember that after 3 minutes output will drop dramatically to near half. DD S12 measured 7.2A right before test. TD15X is running on 1 18650 configuration. Both S12s are flood light so they do appear much brighter in real life than the photos suggests. I adjust the control shot to reflect what I see best with my eyes. I tried doing a video but everything is just washed out. Surrounding ambient lights are quite high so the lights does not appear to be as bright as they should. In pitch dark any of these light would be twice as impressive. The DDS12 has decent throw for being a flood light due to its massive output.


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## xed888 (May 12, 2011)

Great shots mate! Echoing what you said, it does seem that the DD S12 is a much better thrower than stock but for flood, its just slightly brighter. Am I right in making these assumptions?

again, great work!


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## vinhnguyen54 (May 12, 2011)

xed888 said:


> Great shots mate! Echoing what you said, it does seem that the DD S12 is a much better thrower than stock but for flood, its just slightly brighter. Am I right in making these assumptions?
> 
> again, great work!


 

Sure...


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## Got Lumens? (May 12, 2011)

Vin,
Now that I have picked my jaw up off the floor, Wow. I know about the pictures not showing all, I have had the same trouble using my digital camera. An S12 at close to 100 yards, lighting up that tree does show all to me. I have only simular shots taken from about 75-100feet!
Amazing, truely amazing. So I guess I need a third S12 to make it DD :naughty:
I've got the drill, wire, and soldering iron, now I just need a S12 test subject.
GL



vinhnguyen54 said:


> Beamshots!
> 
> The contenders: From left to right---> BC40,TD15X, M3C4 XML, Stock S12, DD S12
> 
> ...


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## vinhnguyen54 (May 12, 2011)

I will post Pictures of how to DD a S12 tonight. And actaully make connections to pull 7A later. Wiring is crucial!


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## vinhnguyen54 (May 14, 2011)

I just DD a SST-50 and it pulled 6A off of a 2600 mAh AW 18650...Hmmmm....


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## Got Lumens? (May 14, 2011)

Execelllent!
Perhaps we need to get you a thermal coupler, you are now beyond the capabilities of handsinking:bow:


vinhnguyen54 said:


> I just DD a SST-50 and it pulled 6A off of a 2600 mAh AW 18650...Hmmmm....


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## vinhnguyen54 (May 14, 2011)

IMO...SST-50 are really no match for XML in terms of output....to my eyes 3.5A XML is at least equivalent to 5A+ SST-50...But SST50 seem to produce a better beam profile in some applications.


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## Got Lumens? (May 15, 2011)

Vin,
Any plans for doing a TurboX DD? Its different because its light engine is a dropin! The reflector screws into the engine.


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## Patriot (May 15, 2011)

Continued outstanding work Vin! This thread has been very appreciated. Thanks so much for all of the work you've done here as I've gleaned much. I'm looking forward to your DD mod pictures!


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## vinhnguyen54 (May 15, 2011)

Got Lumens? said:


> Vin,
> Any plans for doing a TurboX DD? Its different because its light engine is a dropin! The reflector screws into the engine.



XML DD is awsome. I made a few P60 DD already. They pulled 4A and are super bright. However heasinking arent great of course. I dont have a TurboX so I don't know what it's like. But isn't the TurboX just a weaker version of the X7? What's so special about the TurboX? I don't think it's worth it to sacrifice the TurboX UI to increase it's output. That light is fine the way it is IMO. I think DD should be reserve for lights that has exxcelnt heat sinking, unique LEDS, reflectors with special extreme capabilities, or crappy stock UI. Some examples of lights I think DD would be good for...

S12: Weak electronics with LED under driven. Excellent heat sinking!
Cat V2: Driver died so I DD to use single 18650 configuration. Super nice reflector design for throw. Throws much better than stock now. Excellent heat sinking!
Tr-801: Pill screws into body for excellent heat sinking. Smallest budget 18650 host. Impressive light out of a little package without needing IMR.


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## vinhnguyen54 (May 15, 2011)

Patriot said:


> Continued outstanding work Vin! This thread has been very appreciated. Thanks so much for all of the work you've done here as I've gleaned much. I'm looking forward to your DD mod pictures!



Thanks Patriot!

I am going to do mod photos tonight on the S12.


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## Got Lumens? (May 15, 2011)

vinhnguyen54 said:


> I am going to do mod photos tonight on the S12.


Thanks Vin. 
Here is a picture I took comparing X7 to TurboX. They use the same reflector, but the X7 is potted, and the TurboXs dropin is not. The larger head does provide more heatsinking than a regular Turbo. The X7 reflector drops in, and the TurboX is screwed into the dropin.


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## vinhnguyen54 (May 15, 2011)

Got Lumens? said:


> Thanks Vin.
> Here is a picture I took comparing X7 to TurboX. They use the same reflector, but the X7 is potted, and the TurboXs dropin is not. The larger head does provide more heatsinking than a regular Turbo. The X7 reflector drops in, and the TurboX is screwed into the dropin.



You will need a 18650 tube to DD the TurboX Though. But I still think it's good as is.


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## Got Lumens? (May 15, 2011)

Yes have 18650 tube. I just thought you would like to know about X7 vs TurboX. They have Identical beam patterns in my tests. And worth noting the TurboX has thermal and electrical regulation. I don't have any P60 dropins, but it looks like the turboX could be used as a host? Maybe a SST-90 or SST-50 host, hmmmm.


vinhnguyen54 said:


> You will need a 18650 tube to DD the TurboX Though. But I still think it's good as is.


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## Allex (May 16, 2011)

Thanks for this thread! Can I run it with the stock battery after DD?


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## vinhnguyen54 (May 16, 2011)

Allex said:


> Thanks for this thread! I did the thermal
> Mod and my flashlight unscrews easily! Can I run it with the stock battery after DD?



26650 can take 6A discharge no biggie. I would say 4sevens 26650 would be fine.


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## vinhnguyen54 (May 16, 2011)

Got Lumens? said:


> Yes have 18650 tube. I just thought you would like to know about X7 vs TurboX. They have Identical beam patterns in my tests. And worth noting the TurboX has thermal and electrical regulation. I don't have any P60 dropins, but it looks like the turboX could be used as a host? Maybe a SST-90 or SST-50 host, hmmmm.


sst50 are obsolete I terms of output so forget about it. Sst90 are too expensive n 18650 can't provide the juice anyway. XML is best for the turbox.


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## vinhnguyen54 (May 16, 2011)

Some S12 DD Photos:

Factory:






Modded:


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## vinhnguyen54 (May 16, 2011)

Sorry the photos quality are terrible. I sent in my D7000 for service so I have to shoot with a point and shoot. 

Anyhow, drill a little hole through the negative terminal hole. Disconnect the positive red fat wire to the led and insulate the end. Disconnect the wires to the tiny resistor and insulted the ends. Then run three long solid insulted wires down the tube. Solder a flat cooper piece to the tail end of the 3 copper wires and pull it up the tube and solder it to the positive internal rod. Be sure to put some solder on one side of the copper piece and on the internal positive rod first before soldering them together. Then solder the other end of the three solid copper wires to the LED positive. Disconnect the wires to the tiny resistor and insulted the ends. I added a copper tip to the 26650 battery for better current transfer.


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## xed888 (May 16, 2011)

If I just disconnect one of the wires of the thermal resistor, that should switch off the thermal regulation, shouldn't it? Sorry about the silly question; not very good with these things.

I just want the option of reconnecting the resistor.


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## vinhnguyen54 (May 16, 2011)

that should work


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## xed888 (May 16, 2011)

Thanks Vinh! Now if only someone could do a lumen measurement on thermal resistor off vs factory S12:naughty:


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## bigchelis (May 16, 2011)

Im just thinking how much more awesome this would be with a copper S12 and re-solder that SST-90 direct to the heatsinkink with no Star. LED to copper bonding and somehow pushed harder with just a single wire......umhhhhhh

Vinh, 
This has come along way I hope you are happy with making everyone here jelous, especially me. Good job!!


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## Got Lumens? (May 16, 2011)

Thank You for the update:thumbsup:
I am now wishing I had bought two Copper versions



vinhnguyen54 said:


> Sorry the photos quality are terrible. I sent in my D7000 for service so I have to shoot with a point and shoot.
> 
> Anyhow, drill a little hole through the negative terminal hole. Disconnect the positive red fat wire to the led and insulate the end. Disconnect the wires to the tiny resistor and insulted the ends. Then run three long solid insulted wires down the tube. Solder a flat cooper piece to the tail end of the 3 copper wires and pull it up the tube and solder it to the positive internal rod. Be sure to put some solder on one side of the copper piece and on the internal positive rod first before soldering them together. Then solder the other end of the three solid copper wires to the LED positive. Disconnect the wires to the tiny resistor and insulted the ends. I added a copper tip to the 26650 battery for better current transfer.


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## Allex (May 16, 2011)

Guys, when you DD will it loose the 120lumen mode?
Also, when burning in, do you just put the c cells inside the flashlight and turn it on as usual and wait before I see the blue tint?
What do you think about the output?
How bright will it be after 1 and 30minutes:
Stock setup but thermal disabled
DD, thermal disabled (this one looks worth modding I see a huge differense in the first screenshot)
DD, thermal disabled and LED burned in


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## vinhnguyen54 (May 19, 2011)

Allex said:


> Guys, when you DD will it loose the 120lumen mode?
> Also, when burning in, do you just put the c cells inside the flashlight and turn it on as usual and wait before I see the blue tint?
> What do you think about the output?
> How bright will it be after 1 and 30minutes:
> ...



Direct drive means you connect the battery positive and negative directly to the LED positive and negative. No circuit in between so of course no modes. You want to connect two wires to the LED so u can connect the batteries to it. Putting it in the tube is hard because the tube is too big.

I have not ran side by side comparison for 30 minutes long. so I can't answer yoru questions. Lumen freak like me only care about the first 5 minutes. When you DD everything is disabled. That' why we call it Direct drive. 

There are some DD circuit where you can limit current flow to create modes but the current is still not regulated in anyway. Our S12 DD is the tradition battery to led, thus u loose all modes and regulation.


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## vinhnguyen54 (May 19, 2011)

I tested my DD S12 today with 4sevens battery and Orange IMR. Here are the results.

Both fully charged:

4sevens 26650: 4.78 A
IMR 26650: 7A 

This means that if you are going to DD and burn in then u better have an IMR. Otherwise its a waste of time.


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## Got Lumens? (May 19, 2011)

Vinny,
If I do do this Mod, and were to compare IMR vs 47s protected, what Ah capacities should I look for? I know 47s are 3900 mah, what are the IMRs rating you were using, and does that Ah rating have any affect on the current draw, other than IMRs are rated for a higher discharge rate than Protected?
Thanks for going where no mod has gone before . . .



vinhnguyen54 said:


> I tested my DD S12 today with 4sevens battery and Orange IMR. Here are the results.
> 
> Both fully charged:
> 
> ...


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## vinhnguyen54 (May 19, 2011)

Capcities have little to do with dischare rate. Tactical hid has good 26650 imr.


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## Stephen Wallace (May 19, 2011)

And having said that it doesn't necessarily have an impact on discharge rate, so this is just for info, the 4seven's cells are marked as having a capacity of 3900mAh, rather than 2900mAh.


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## vinhnguyen54 (May 20, 2011)

Have I told you guys that My DD S12 is really bright?! I bring it everywhere now...So much light in a small package. It even throws pretty well since it puts out so much lumen. A wide area in a dark park just completely lit up. Ahhhh


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## Allex (May 21, 2011)

But looks like your Distant M3C4 XML punches out a lot more lumens! Still preferring S12 over that one?


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## vinhnguyen54 (May 21, 2011)

A Deft throws much farther than a S12 with just 300 lumen...Still prefer the Deft? It depends right? 

A war between Flood and Throw will never yield a winner...


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## vinhnguyen54 (May 22, 2011)

If I have to pick just one light between the S12 and the M3C4 I would still pick the S12...simply because it's so bight and so little. To me it's unprecedented...


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## Glenn7 (May 23, 2011)

I am thinking of getting an S12, but I would de-dome it for more throw - that way you get the best of both worlds.
Have you though of de-doming one of your S12's? it will double your lux and make it throw much better.

Also de-doming it would mean you wouldn't have to hack the light so much (maybe just the heat sensor) - its not always about how many lumen's you can shoot out most of the time, its about how the lumen's are put out also and thats why the M3C4 @ 700+ lumen's looks way brighter (more lux).
I guess I can back up my post with... if you look in my sig line at my beam shots, the septa with 7x XPG @ 2600+ lumen's and M3C4 with 3x XML @ 1100 lumen's - the lesser M3C4 out throws the septa easy.


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## bigchelis (May 23, 2011)

Glenn7 said:


> I am thinking of getting an S12, but I would de-dome it for more throw - that way you get the best of both worlds.
> Have you though of de-doming one of your S12's? it will double your lux and make it throw much better.
> 
> Also de-doming it would mean you wouldn't have to hack the light so much (maybe just the heat sensor) - its not always about how many lumen's you can shoot out most of the time, its about how the lumen's are put out also and thats why the M3C4 looks way brighter.


 

If you take off the dome you do get more throw, more current, more heat, but the tint will change to a more yellowish color. Sometimes it may look warm or yellow so be prepared for that. 


Once you take off the dome I think it will significantly mess with the heat sensor because the lights get significantly hotter then when the dome on.

I have an S12 on the way to me now for my own tests. Maybe I can report OTF lumens before and after the burn in.

bigC


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## Glenn7 (May 23, 2011)

I guess I'm going off a VP2000 I had de-domed and that REALLY!!! threw - I would disconnect the heat sensor as a given - yellow = warmer (thats a good thing to many here) - BTW my VP2000 had no yellow :thinking:


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## vinhnguyen54 (May 23, 2011)

I like my dome intact. I dedome XML and Sst50 N all wih ugly tint shift. I have other lights for throw. I like my s12 the way it flood. I am also too scAred to ruin the expensive sst90. IMO I think I would only consider dedome for deep reflector throw application. I agree on how it's not about how much lumen a light put out but how it puts it put. I am content with how the s12 puts it out at the moment.


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## Glenn7 (May 23, 2011)

I accidentally knocked off an XML dome and yuck it looks blue/purple now - but xml is a different beast to sst's

Now I just need a volunteer to do me a overdriven S12 - or sell me one (hint hint)


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## vinhnguyen54 (May 23, 2011)

S12 DD sold! :-(


But it's ok...Still got 2 more S12 to burn in and DD...


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## Glenn7 (May 23, 2011)

S12 DD owned! :0)


But it's ok...Still can get 2 more S12 after burn in and DD...:naughty:


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## bigchelis (Jun 4, 2011)

Well I have in my hands a S12 of my own now

Vinny: do you have that video for me to copy it and DD mine


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## Glenn7 (Jun 4, 2011)

I am so happy with my new DD S12 - big thanks to Vinny for being a legend and even trying this DD & lowering the FV in the first place.

So far it has cured me of using P60 dropins - I should add some beam shots to my collection.


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## bigchelis (Jun 6, 2011)

Hi all,

Before I attempt to Direct Drive the S12 I currently have. I decided it would be a good idea to record the stock OTF lumens.

I keep the S12 held in my hand as I test the light and topped off the cells.

With the Protected 4Sevens 26650 li-on cell I get:

1 sec = 708.3 (582.1 OTF with Glow in the dark difusser film)
30sec = 692.9
1 min = 681.0
2 min = 681.0
3 min = 688.1
4 min = 646.4
5 min = 645.2

Then I put the topped of no name un-protected 26650 li-on cell and the lumens are 796.4 OTF at turn-on and perform that much better throught the 1~5min. The current is 3A at the tail with this cell.

Then I put the Glow in the Dark Diffuser film by Shago sold in Market place w/4Sevens 26650 the turn-on lumens are 582.1 OTF.


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## vinhnguyen54 (Jun 7, 2011)

Sorry I have been so busy the last couple of days. You are so lucky with a maelstrom S12 that is not glued. DD is super easy if you can remove the head. Can you remove the driver? If you can that would be the safest way to run the positive led connection down the tube. Drilling through the driver and making sure no connections gets hit is very risky....


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## bigchelis (Jun 7, 2011)

vinhnguyen54 said:


> Sorry I have been so busy the last couple of days. You are so lucky with a maelstrom S12 that is not glued. DD is super easy if you can remove the head. Can you remove the driver? If you can that would be the safest way to run the positive led connection down the tube. Drilling through the driver and making sure no connections gets hit is very risky....


 

In other builds that have drivers, like the shinningbeam 1.4A and 2.8A drivers when I get the (-) wire and solder it to the heatsink it goes direct drive.

Do you think by unsoldering those heat sensors and getting the (-) direct to the heatsink for ground I can Direct Drive the S12?

Thanks,
bigC


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## vinhnguyen54 (Jun 7, 2011)

bigchelis said:


> In other builds that have drivers, like the shinningbeam 1.4A and 2.8A drivers when I get the (-) wire and solder it to the heatsink it goes direct drive.
> 
> Do you think by unsoldering those heat sensors and getting the (-) direct to the heatsink for ground I can Direct Drive the S12?
> 
> ...



That method works in many cases and I should of thought of that when I DD my S12. Let me try it real quick and answer you.


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## bigchelis (Jun 7, 2011)

vinhnguyen54 said:


> That method works in many cases and I should of thought of that when I DD my S12. Let me try it real quick and answer you.




Thank you very much. I really appreciate this.

Also,
My bezel was glued really tight with some type of lock-tie. What I did was just get rubber wrenches that Lowes has and with no heat at all just man-handle it open. Then I get thin bent scissors to remove the lock-tie and get a clean look. 

bigC


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## vinhnguyen54 (Jun 7, 2011)

Tested! Direct drive like a charm by connecting the LED negative to the heatsink! I will show photos tonight.


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## bigchelis (Jun 8, 2011)

I could't get it to work using the (-) direct to heatsink so i took it apart all the way!


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## vinhnguyen54 (Jun 8, 2011)

bigchelis said:


> I could't get it to work using the (-) direct to heatsink so i took it apart all the way!
> 
> http://i288.photobucket.com/albums/ll166/bigchelis/651dce18[/QUOTE]
> 
> ...


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## Glenn7 (Jun 8, 2011)

Now all you have to do is do the magic forward voltage thoying and your done


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## Glenn7 (Jun 8, 2011)

double post....


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## Got Lumens? (Jun 8, 2011)

BigC,
Your pictures didn't make it. reposted for you, click thumbs for fullsize, GL


bigchelis said:


> I could't get it to work using the (-) direct to heatsink so i took it apart all the way!
> 
> 
> .
> ...


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## bigchelis (Jun 8, 2011)

Thank you all, but as you just saw I am going all the way now....

This is underneath the board. Looks like copper.







Huge empty space once the driver is removed.





Huge Driver of course







this is how I had it, but couldnt get it to work.


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## vinhnguyen54 (Jun 10, 2011)

New finding: I did a runtime test as connected in post 138 and found out that the light shut off at 3.25V!

Theory one: Tactical HID Orange IMR has build in circuit protection at 3.25V. 
Theory two: The light preserve voltage cut off at 3.25V by wiring as post 138.

Let me know what yall think? Eitherway, this is GREAT news for S12 DD fans out there! Never have to worry about over discharging your IMR cell.


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## Glenn7 (Jun 13, 2011)

It will be interesting how many lumen's you measure OTF Bigchelis


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## Glenn7 (Jun 18, 2011)




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## bigchelis (Jul 10, 2011)

Hi all,
Special Thank you to PCC for making a solid Copper Slug heatsink to fill that huge void/Cavity where the Driver used to be. Its now Direct Drive with a huge copper slug heatsink that is stepped, so makes good contact with outer shell.

At the moment it does 3.67A at the tail off un-protected 26650 cell.



EDIT***** I been running 4 NiMH C Tenergy Cells to burn in the LED*******************

The bezel gets smoking hot at 1min and the body and tail get hot too. So, heat transfer is working wonderfull.


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## vinhnguyen54 (Jul 20, 2011)

Me and BigC have recently ran into some very stuborn S12 LED. both of our most recent S12 only pull 3.5A on regulation! This is surprisingly low. I DD it and only increase to 3.8. I guess this mean not all SST-90 are equal... :-(


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## bigchelis (Jul 20, 2011)

vinhnguyen54 said:


> Me and BigC have recently ran into some very stuborn S12 LED. both of our most recent S12 only pull 3.5A on regulation! This is surprisingly low. I DD it and only increase to 3.8. I guess this mean not all SST-90 are equal... :-(



Very true. My other SST-90 burn-in lights were all top bin SST-90 from cutterelectronics.com. This is my 1st production light SST-90 that I tried to burn-in and just got from 3.6A to 4A at the tail after the burn. arghhhhh They are probably low bin types, I bet!

Anyway at 4A and with my copper heatsink the light gets almost really hot at 5min anyways. So, its not like it can take anymore or my thermal path is just freaking insanely efficient.

bigC


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## vinhnguyen54 (Jul 20, 2011)

Now I know why some people don't like their S12...I think SST-90 is the most inconsistent LED in terms on Tint and brightness. 

Question...

XM-L can make 800 lumen at 3A
SST-90 make 800 Lumen at 5A

?! What the heck?


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## vinhnguyen54 (Jul 20, 2011)

bigchelis said:


> Very true. My other SST-90 burn-in lights were all top bin SST-90 from cutterelectronics.com. This is my 1st production light SST-90 that I tried to burn-in and just got from 3.6A to 4A at the tail after the burn. arghhhhh They are probably low bin types, I bet!
> 
> Anyway at 4A and with my copper heatsink the light gets almost really hot at 5min anyways. So, its not like it can take anymore or my thermal path is just freaking insanely efficient.
> 
> bigC


 You need my 7A LED on that copper block! LOL


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## bigchelis (Jul 20, 2011)

vinhnguyen54 said:


> Now I know why some people don't like their S12...I think SST-90 is the most inconsistent LED in terms on Tint and brightness.
> 
> Question...
> 
> ...


 
Not the case, at lower current or underdriven the SST-90 (all of them) they out do the paper spec or are just freakinshly too bright. 

All my SST-90's from Milky, Lamdalights, Custom 2D Mags, and my current SST-90 lights. All make around 1000 OTF at 4A. 

As I go up in current they become less surprising and give out expected outputs. 

At 5A most = 1200~1500 OTF
At 6A most = 1300~1800 OTF 
At 7~12A = 2000~2300 OTF 

In my experience after 7A there is not much gain at all. I think only a huge chunk of coper and LED to copper bonding will show a benefit at these currents. Lamdalights.com pushes the SST-90 at 15A but he continues to show gain/benefit in brightness where as I have not been so lucky after 7A.

bigC


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## Stephen Wallace (Jul 20, 2011)

15A!? 

Hadn't realised anyone was pushing them quite that hard.


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## bigchelis (Jul 20, 2011)

Stephen Wallace said:


> 15A!?
> 
> Hadn't realised anyone was pushing them quite that hard.


 
Kevin doesnt use IMR 26650 because of cell sag. In fact he only does it with NiMH C or NiMH D cells because they sag considerably less then even the IMR 26650.

Then the fact that Lamdalights/Kevin uses copper and LED to copper technology makes the heat transfer have the ultimate thermal path. Only Milky and Saabluster are doing this LED to copper bonding too.

bigC


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## Colonel Sanders (Aug 4, 2011)

Hey guys, I found out tonight that if you don't clip the black ground when you solder directly from the LED negative to the ground screw something really neat happens. You get 5-5.3A on high and *YOU STILL HAVE A LOW SETTING complete with memory!* The only difference is that the low goes from being about .350A to around .600-.650!

I don't know what kind of lumen this thing is putting out now but the throw picked up a bunch! Vinny, set that thing back on STUN and go check out the throw!

Maybe I should start a new thread about this. This thing is really putting out now! :devil:


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## vinhnguyen54 (Aug 4, 2011)

Yayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy. Yup you go start a new thread i am sure a bunch of people will want this... ;-)




Colonel Sanders said:


> Hey guys, I found out tonight that if you don't clip the black ground when you solder directly from the LED negative to the ground screw something really neat happens. You get 5-5.3A on high and *YOU STILL HAVE A LOW SETTING complete with memory!* The only difference is that the low goes from being about .350A to around .600-.650!
> 
> I don't know what kind of lumen this thing is putting out now but the throw picked up a bunch! Vinny, set that thing back on STUN and go check out the throw!
> 
> Maybe I should start a new thread about this. This thing is really putting out now! :devil:


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## Got Lumens? (Aug 4, 2011)

Colonel Sanders said:


> Hey guys, I found out tonight that if you don't clip the black ground when you solder directly from the LED negative to the ground screw something really neat happens. You get 5-5.3A on high and *YOU STILL HAVE A LOW SETTING complete with memory!* The only difference is that the low goes from being about .350A to around .600-.650!
> 
> I don't know what kind of lumen this thing is putting out now but the throw picked up a bunch! Vinny, set that thing back on STUN and go check out the throw!
> 
> Maybe I should start a new thread about this. This thing is really putting out now! :devil:


Could you post some pics?
Thanks
GL


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## Colonel Sanders (Aug 4, 2011)

I was half asleep when I posted at 2:05am so with this being an S12 thread I should have mentioned that this was done on my X10. But, I'd be willing to bet that it work just the same on an S12.

GL, I might go back and take some pics but I think I can describe it pretty easily using Vinny's pics from this thread. But, yeah, I guess I should just start a new thread and do it right. I guess this "Homemade and Modified Flashlights" would be the forum to do it in instead of the LED forum, right?


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## Colonel Sanders (Aug 4, 2011)

Click here----> http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb...-that-retains-low-mode!&p=3710276#post3710276


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## Baddog (Aug 19, 2011)

vinhnguyen54 said:


> I saw my friend attempted and I gave up...If anyone found a super good way please post here.
> 
> Direct Drive Update:
> 
> ...


a quick question if i may, would u think it ok to burn in with 2 26650's in parallel?

cheers


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