# Any stories of using STROBE as a Self-Defense Weapon?



## grndslm (Aug 6, 2015)

I used to think that strobe was the most useless feature on a flashlight, but I've come to the realization that strobe is one of the most important functions on an EDC light. Perhaps not a work light, depending on where you work... but it's definitely something that can be used to stop an "assailant" without injuring him. "Throwing" a 1200 lux beam at distances that would make the carbon steel knife in your pocket simply blush and in an alternating fashion that would cause anyone's nervous system to panic is definitely a SAFE method of defending yourself, whereas firearms are possibly pulled out a bit too soon. Reach for your strobe first! **  

Sooo... does anyone have any stories to share about the _usefulness_ of strobe in a self-defense scenario?


** This is not legal advice. No one here is liable for this content, which shall be used for educational purposes only. Thank you!


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## insanefred (Aug 6, 2015)

grndslm said:


> I used to think that strobe was the most useless feature on a flashlight, but I've come to the realization that strobe is one of the most important functions on an EDC light. Perhaps not a work light, depending on where you work... but it's definitely something that can be used to stop an "assailant" without injuring him. "Throwing" a 1200 lux beam at distances that would make the carbon steel knife in your pocket simply blush and in an alternating fashion that would cause anyone's nervous system to panic is definitely a SAFE method of defending yourself, whereas firearms are possibly pulled out a bit too soon. Reach for your strobe first! **
> 
> Sooo... does anyone have any stories to share about the _usefulness_ of strobe in a self-defense scenario?
> 
> ...



The Only time this would even work is if the light was EXTREMELY bright. E.G. Nikon SB-910 on 1/1 flash (full power). Problem with that method is that it will likely blind you too! Other than that... here is this thread:http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?234066-Tactical-strobe-Does-it-work 

As for my opinion, I would never, ever, ever depend on some strobe effect to ever save me for an "assailant". It is gimmicky, until proven otherwise, worst of all it may cost you your life for falling for it too!


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## grndslm (Aug 6, 2015)

Are you insane fred? 

Virtually any AA or larger, or any lithium flashlight that is mentioned on this forum would be enough to disorient someone in strobe. I'd guess that somewhere around 200 lumens (not sure about lux) is all it takes to blind someone without strobe. Adding strobe just adds a whole 'nother factor (x10) in disorienting someone.

I challenge you to be on the receiving end of a 200 lumen flashlight on strobe mode and tell me you are still capable of seeing anything. I have a Nitecore MH10 I purchased for $50 that even came with the 18650 battery. It puts out 1000 lumens. I would NEVER dare put that in anyone's eyes unless I REALLY didn't like them.

There's nothing gimmicky about strobe. In fact, in skimming thru the thread you linked to, there are two posts that instantly stuck out to me...



Trashman said:


> A few years ago, there was a link, here, on CPF, that went to a demonstration of the effectiveness of the strobe. I don't remember if it was a video, photos, or just drawings illustrating the experiment. Long story short, the person explained that the strobe made it so the person being strobed couldn't assess the distance of the person strobing. The strober stood back about 10 feet, and while strobing the person, quickly moved within striking distance (or, he may have actually laid a hand on the person (like a tap)) and *the person being strobed was never able to tell that someone was moving upon them*.





ErickThakrar said:


> One of the primary movers behind the strobe idea for use in a tactical/law enforcement setting is Ken Good. I'm surprised that so many people here seem to have forgotten this. Ken Good is arguably, one of the more popular instructors in the US when it comes to low-light tactics, although he has his share of odd ideas.
> The strobe as a disorienting factor is something that the military has also been researching for a long time. Primarily intended to aid in crowd control, research has been done to ascertain the most disruptive frequencies. Those frequencies all lie between 10 and 15 hz.
> Is it a panacea? No, of course not. Can it be used to disorient someone momentarily? Sure, it works on some people.
> *I can tell you that in my experience playing around with various lights, the brighter the strobe is, the more effective. *The strobe function on my MVP-P7 is very uncomfortable! Far more so than the strobe on my Tomahawk.



If ErickThakrar thinks his 700 lumen flashlight is very uncomfortable, then I'm sure a 1000 lumen light will be about 42% more uncomfortable. As technology advances, so will our opportunities and applications.

But this is definitely a topic in which throw (lux) could be more important than flood.... unless there are multiple assailants, of course. But if someone without a gun looked like they were going to mess with me or my girl or anyone else, then I would without a doubt reach for virtually any strobing flashlight before reaching for a gun. And I would only reach for a knife if it were a last resort, due to it's short-range application... so really not an option. But of course, it always depends on the situation and all that jazz. But I'm sure there are several 1000 lumen flashlights that can be had for under $50. Perhaps you should pick on up and leave your camera's flash light on your camera. :touche:


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## KeepingItLight (Aug 7, 2015)

Here is a fascinating thread that describes a 7-year study of strobe use by police in the Netherlands.

Police Study of tactical use of Strobe

The officer reporting on the the study repeats several times that the strobe is a tool that allows him to avoid an escalation to more lethal weapons. We are not talking about armed assailants. By the time you reach that level, force has already been escalated.

He talks about non-cooperative citizens who have been stopped by the police. Strobe before pepper spray, pepper spray before hand gun. When someone is already shooting at you, you need to respond proportionally.

This is a recommended read. The study resulted in the design of a tactical flashlight that is now in use by thousands of officers in the E.U.


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## insanefred (Aug 7, 2015)

grndslm said:


> Are you insane fred?
> 
> Virtually any AA or larger, or any lithium flashlight that is mentioned on this forum would be enough to disorient someone in strobe. I'd guess that somewhere around 200 lumens (not sure about lux) is all it takes to blind someone without strobe. Adding strobe just adds a whole 'nother factor (x10) in disorienting someone.
> 
> ...



Say what you want, still don't trust it to save me from being mugged/attacked, let alone my life.


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## scs (Aug 7, 2015)

Not stories, but did find this:



And a Nitecore flashlight defense video. The way the "assailants" freeze is entertaining:


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## scs (Aug 7, 2015)

Ha, and this:


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## dc38 (Aug 7, 2015)

Strobe dont work. Intermittent on and offing do. Tap sweep off tap tap sweep tap sweep


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## grndslm (Aug 7, 2015)

Just want to mention the reasoning behind my belief that strobe could actually be a defense weapon. First has to do with my friend buying the Nitecore SRT7. It flashes police colors close to 1000 lumens. I found the much more pocketable MH10. Even tho it's smaller it has a few more lumens of output, plus strobe is always two clicks away... No matter what state it is in while sitting in your pocket. Nitecore definitely sees the defense aspect... And I like that.




dc38 said:


> Strobe dont work. Intermittent on and offing do. Tap sweep off tap tap sweep tap sweep


 What the hell is a sweep? What's your reasoning behind it working and strobe not working?


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## d88 (Aug 7, 2015)

grndslm said:


> Just want to mention the reasoning behind my belief that strobe could actually be a defense weapon. First has to do with my friend buying the Nitecore SRT7. It flashes police colors close to 1000 lumens. I found the much more pocketable MH10. Even tho it's smaller it has a few more lumens of output, plus strobe is always two clicks away... No matter what state it is in while sitting in your pocket. Nitecore definitely sees the defense aspect... And I like that.
> 
> 
> What the hell is a sweep? What's your reasoning behind it working and strobe not working?




The SRT7 does not strobe near to 100 lumens on "police colours" . The 900 odd lumens are for the main white beam (which can strobe), the red/blue colours are on the much smaller secondary leds, which are no where near the lumen output of the main led.


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## Tac Gunner (Aug 7, 2015)

I have never done any scientific studies on the use of strobe as a defensive tool but from just some impromptu tests I have done on different friends, strobe would be useless with most lights. Yes it would surprise someone but it really isn't that hard to fight through it.

I had some friends over one night and we were looking at my lights and of course everyone was playing with the strobe modes because they are the coolest modes to non flashaholics. I decided to test the effectiveness of using strobe to disorient a person so I grabbed my Eagletac sx25l2t (1000 lumen, 81,500 lux @ 1m), set it to the alternating strobe mode, and had somebody run at me from about 20 feet. Everyone of them was able to run right at me and grab me. We did this four or five times with the same results. We tried it with the blue and green lenses with the same results. The only time we found it to be completely disorienting enough to do good was with the yellow lens. I'm not sure why but it was actually painful to look at with the yellow lens. 

Yes you could say that strobe is effective based on what I said but only if you take into account the size of the light being used, the output, lux, and most importantly with a YELLOW lens and only then if it was shined directly into a person's eyes, if not directly into them it did ABSOLUTELY NOTHING. If the person was only glancing up to see where I was and then putting his head back down it had NO EFFECT. 

As for a 200 lumen light doing any good it would only do good if you threw it and it hit them hard enough to knock em out. I did the same test with my Eagletac D25A2 (2xAA, 350 lumens, 3200 lux) and it did nothing, not even enough to justify shining it at them.

Overall from what I have learned from actually testing it, strobe is not worth staking your life on. A white strobe does nothing and even though the yellow was painful I wouldn't stake my life on it if somebody had a gun, knife, bat, etc. I might use it as a show of force before I draw my weapon but I would not use it as my sole defensive tool.

May I suggest you and your friend try the simple experiment I did and tell us whether you believe strobe is beneficial afterwards. If you do try it, remember to actually try and grab the other person, I bet if you set your mind to it and mentally block out the light you will be able to grab him. As long as you just run towards the light it isn't hard to do. What is hard is being the guy with light and trying to move around while keeping the light directly in the attackers eyes because I would be willing to bet that if someone is trying to actually attack you, you be moving. Most people would be moving and trying to avoid the attacker, not stand perfectly still and focus solely on shining it directly into the attacker's eyes.


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## eh4 (Aug 7, 2015)

I think strobe would be quite effective in the right conditions -if the ambient light is low enough. 
For instance, I can see just fine by the 1000 lumen strobe of my H600, it's slightly annoying at first but it works as a light for me to see by. 
But shining it in a mirror back at myself in a darkened room, I cannot see. The alternating dark and glare overwhelm my eyes ability to adjust. 
If I was approaching someone in the dark and they were strobing me with this light I would be basically blind to my surroundings while they would be able to see me and everything else just fine.
As with any tool, it isn't magic. Someone can't just stand there like a victim and believe the magic wand will save the day, but rather they must incorporate the advantage that it gives with their plan to evade or solve the problem.


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## Tac Gunner (Aug 7, 2015)

I agree eh4, it must be incorporated into a larger plan. While I did not see any major disorienting effects when I experimented with strobe I did find it to offer just enough of a surprise/distraction to give yourself a little more time to counter what was happening. IMHO though it isn't good for anything past the initial surprise and a show of force.


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## RetroTechie (Aug 7, 2015)

eh4 said:


> As with any tool, it isn't magic. Someone can't just stand there like a victim and believe the magic wand will save the day, but rather they must incorporate the advantage that it gives with their plan to evade or solve the problem.


+1. The only point in using a strobe (that I can see), is using a split second of confusion to gain the upper hand over an attacker. Imho a general "surprise!" effect is more important there than using a strobe for the job (although a -*powerful*- strobe _may_ be effective for this purpose). And of course you have to back it up. Just strobing someone _in itself_ won't achieve anything.



grndslm said:


> I challenge you to be on the receiving end of a 200 lumen flashlight on strobe mode and tell me you are still capable of seeing anything.


Ehm... perhaps not even RELEVANT. :duh2: Suppose attacker is armed with a knife, you jump him with a strobing flashlight in one hand, and a 'blunt instrument'  in your other hand. Even if attacker can't see you clearly, what's to stop him from launching his knife in your general direction & slice you open? Might even happen by accident, simply because you scared or startled him.

So unless you're a trained professional, I think this firmly belongs in "don't take a strobe to a knife/gunfight" territory. Might get you a fraction of a second worth of confusion - at best. At worst it'll just _help_ to get people hurt.


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## Dex Robinson (Aug 7, 2015)

I think a critical question is, "What kind of assailant are you likely to encounter"?

I doubt if a strobe would be a significant deterrent to an experienced and dedicated strong-arm mugger.

But, in my part of town, I am most likely to be accosted by drunk or drug-user who is already at some level of impairment. If some guy points a 9mm at me and says, "Hand over your wallet"...I'm handing over my wallet. If some guy with the shakes waves a knife at me and says, "Hey man, you got any cash?", he's likely to get a strobe in the face and a kick in the privates.


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## MAD777 (Aug 7, 2015)

I'll throw another angle into this conversation based on the previous question of "what kind of attacker". I'm a backpacker and spend several days at a time trekking through wilderness inhabited by everything from ticks to bears. I sleep in an open hammock and have a good view of my surroundings. I keep a flashlight hanging just above me from my hammock ridgeline. My theory is that a strong strobe might deter a pig, coyote or bear passing through. 

Two things have kept me from gathering any proof of my theory. One is that animals never seem to approach me in the woods. The other is that I sleep so soundly after hiking all day, that I would probably sleep through a bear eating me. 

But, my theory gives me a good excuse to carry some cool gear with me!


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## scs (Aug 7, 2015)

Out of curiosity, have you guys had a chance to read the thread referenced in Post #4?
It might give some context and perspective to additional discussions.


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## Kestrel (Aug 7, 2015)

scs said:


> Out of curiosity, have you guys had a chance to read the thread referenced in Post #4?
> It might give some context and perspective to additional discussions.



+1 Billion 
*Police Study of tactical use of Strobe
Tactical strobe..Does it work?????

*Edit: And that Nitecore "defense" video is ludicrous


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## Amelia (Aug 7, 2015)

Maybe I'm saying this just because I'm a weak girl, but when it comes to lights and strobes, here's how I feel about it. If someone was trying to do me harm at night, my first instinct would be to turn my light OFF... then trust my knowlege of the area I was in to RUN as fast as I could (navigating by memory) until my vision was adapted enough that I could run faster. I would also be retrieving my knife as quickly as I could while fleeing... I'm not about to give up if caught.


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## FRITZHID (Aug 7, 2015)

Amelia said:


> Maybe I'm saying this just because I'm a weak girl, but when it comes to lights and strobes, here's how I feel about it. If someone was trying to do me harm at night, my first instinct would be to turn my light OFF... then trust my knowlege of the area I was in to RUN as fast as I could (navigating by memory) until my vision was adapted enough that I could run faster. I would also be retrieving my knife as quickly as I could while fleeing... I'm not about to give up if caught.



Just get your CC permit and call it a day. You're obviously responsible enough.

As far as strobe vs attacker....
IME, just like it's been stated above, the right focus, lumens on target and feq can/will cause disorientation, sickness, nausea, etc.
More so in intoxicated persons and those with epilepsy.
I've also noticed that with my maxabeam strobe (at the right feq & DC) effects persons much harder than the same lumen rated LED strobe. I'm not 100% on why but part of that may be due to the "hi-lo" rather than the "on-off" of LED versions. I have a 3000lm variable LED focused lenser strobe that has less effect than the maxabeam @ 1200lm.


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## WarRaven (Aug 7, 2015)

Strobe with one light, throw very hard the back up light, don't miss.
Pick up back up light, go home.


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## Robocop (Aug 7, 2015)

I have been involved in various strobe usage threads over the years and have always attempted to add some real world experiences to the discussion. I will do the same here and hope that it will add some food for thought or if nothing else maybe a few other bits of information to consider.

I train other officers on the street and have been an FTO (field training officer) for many years. I have 18 years of street patrol in a high crime area and all 18 years have been on night shift. As a result of my shift I use my lights often and feel I am qualified to add some good points to this thread. I have also been involved in some very real world combat situations and hundreds of high risk entries in darkness. 

The number one problem I see with most people who discuss this strobe feature is that they base their information on controlled classroom situations. Many will also base their opinions on fooling around with a few friends blinding each other in the back yard. Nothing wrong with this at all as not everyone has been in a true life violent situation so it is understandable. Classroom training conditions, and weekend warriors, are very much different than that real life dark alley alone situation.

I can tell you from experience if you shine a strobe light at a crazed criminal on meth who is charging you in that alley you will be killed. Now that sloppy drunk who is just annoying you may be fun to strobe however again please do not get yourself hurt thinking a strobe feature is a self defense tool. The best thing to use is your smarts and avoid conflict all together. Any type of chemical deterrent, impact weapon, taser, or hand to hand skills will do you much better than a strobe. Practice often and remain alert is sound advice for any who wish to listen.

Chemical spray is almost never used anymore as we now have adopted tasers. Mace was found to be not very good in most cases as while it would maybe blind the attacker he still had full use of his hands or any weapons. Many officers were hurt after using mace as they let their guard down feeling the mace would protect them. I see the same with young officers I train as they have read the marketing hype on strobe and will arrive for duty with a big fancy strobing duty light. Yes the first time they try to use it on an entry or towards a truly hostile person they quickly realize they should have used other options.

I know thousands of officers and have been involved with some very high speed units with years of training. Never once in my career have I seen a tactical team use strobe during an entry. The reason is that any seasoned officer knows what works and nothing beats simple proven tactics. Strobe has its place for sure however is usually only good for traffic control. Now by all means if it is all you have then use anything to get to safety. Not every citizen has to engage an attacker and their sole intention would be to simply escape danger. As an officer I must actually close the distance to contact the threat so again my opinions on strobe are based on police work and not that of the average citizen walking to the store.

To sum it up for a true violent situation I would never use strobe nor have I ever seen it used by thousands of other officers. I have seen some who use it fooling around and after feel like it would work. Again there is a big difference between blinding your buddy fooling around and that drug addict who wants your wallet. Good reading here it seems and I do hope my experiences can add a little to this thread. I am simply trying to ensure that others really understand what a real threat is and how to avoid a false sense of security.

I was active in the thread linked above and enjoyed others opinions and experiences in that discussion. Read over that linked thread above as I went into a little more detail of my personal experiences there. Just a little food for thought and I will check back with this thread shortly.


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## Rider57 (Aug 7, 2015)

The only thing strobe does is turn the bull charging at you into a blind bull charging at you. It just give you back the upper hand for a second(figuratively of course) dont go blinding bulls people. 

Me and the gf tried the mh20s strobe on each other to see how affective it was. It didnt dissorient me or deter me. I was still able to tell where the light was coming from and walk in that direction shielding my eyes from the light. Had i ran i would have reached her quickly. 

Strobe for self defense? Nope
Deterent? Plossible, its very very annoying like a painfully loud noise but for your eyes. 

To buy yourself enough time to regain control, pull out a knife/gun or prepare to fight? Absolutely, will buy you a few seconds to plan your next step. 

Imho the best use for the strobe (if you absolutely had to) would be to turn it from a defensive into an offensive feature. Light him/her up, charge forward drop kick/groin kick, turn around and run then call 911.


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## NoNotAgain (Aug 7, 2015)

Any light that you use depending on ambient light conditions can be effective. A 1800-2000 lumen light strobing on a non-moon lit night is more effective than the same use on a full moon or a parking lot lit by sodium vapor lights.

I like the audible strobe. CCW holder using 1911, one click from **** and lock, gains attention, then the 6HZ strobe finishes the deal.


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## Rider57 (Aug 7, 2015)

6hz? From the reports ive read, 12-18hz is the most affective range


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## recDNA (Aug 7, 2015)

Hit Girl looked cool beating up guys with strobe blasting.


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## grndslm (Aug 8, 2015)

RetroTechie said:


> Suppose attacker is armed with a knife, you jump him with a strobing flashlight in one hand, and a 'blunt instrument'  in your other hand. Even if attacker can't see you clearly, what's to stop him from launching his knife in your general direction & slice you open? Might even happen by accident, simply because you scared or startled him.
> 
> So unless you're a trained professional, I think this firmly belongs in "don't take a strobe to a knife/gunfight" territory. Might get you a fraction of a second worth of confusion - at best. At worst it'll just _help_ to get people hurt.


This seems to be a very common hypothetical with a very common suggestion....
*
There's an athletic guy with a knife running at you, and you're obese, only armed with a flashlight with strobe feature. What do you do? Definitely keep that flashlight in your pants, buddy!! Using that flashlight to get a split second upperhand is idiotic. Just pray to God that the mugger trips over his shoelaces and falls onto the pointy part of that knife!!*

Whatever. If you're smart enough to obsess about flashlights and carry one on a daily basis, hopefully you're smart enough to carry a knife with you as well. Everybody should have both of them. And you should definitely get a CCW permit if you can, as well... and an Enhanced Carry permit if you live in Mississippi.  But the strobing light does add SOME benefit, even if only a split second. Of course, if someone is mugging you with his own gun. Don't reach for your flashlight first. If he asks for your wallet, hopefully you slowly pull out a PISTOL and give him what he really needs!! **

** Again, this post is not legal advice and is only here for educational purposes. In no way, shape, or form is anyone on the Internet liable for your probable death when deciding whether to fight or flee.



MAD777 said:


> I'll throw another angle into this conversation based on the previous question of "what kind of attacker". I'm a backpacker and spend several days at a time trekking through wilderness inhabited by everything from ticks to bears. I sleep in an open hammock and have a good view of my surroundings. I keep a flashlight hanging just above me from my hammock ridgeline. My theory is that a strong strobe might deter a pig, coyote or bear passing through.
> 
> Two things have kept me from gathering any proof of my theory. One is that animals never seem to approach me in the woods. The other is that I sleep so soundly after hiking all day, that I would probably sleep through a bear eating me.
> 
> But, my theory gives me a good excuse to carry some cool gear with me!


I would be very interested to see how a bear or coyote would react to a 30,000 lux flashlight strobing in its eyes. I'd imagine they have similar tolerances to humans, but, obviously, guessing with strobe can be dangerous. And the #1 suggestion that should be learned from this thread is that YOU SHOULD PRACTICE with your "tool" in various scenarios before actually pulling it out in a real life scenario. This is advice you will receive on any gun owners forum. Don't carry a gun if you're not going to fire several hundreds of rounds thru it to understand the ins and outs of the gun itself and how it responds to different ammos, or at least the one you intend to carry with the gun.


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## grndslm (Aug 8, 2015)

And speaking of practicing with your tool, I actually did a few unscientific tests myself yesterday.

Was on the receiving end of my MH10 while in Walmart, and it didn't affect me whatsoever. The bright fluorescent lighting was much, much brighter than the flashlight... so strobe was obviously not going to affect my pupils at all.

When going outside, in a fairly bright parking lot.... the light would have only given the strober a half-second advantage, if that. It would have needed to have been pitch black to really affect me. Tho, my battery was probably over half dead after using it pretty hard this past week, so I'm not sure how well that affected the actual output of this model. And that light is not really a thrower...

My buddy's SRT7 has I think close to double the lux, which is really what you want for the topic at hand. It felt like the strober would have had about double the advantage.

But what was strange to me is he pulled out a Zebra headlamp that had similar lumen rating as the SRT7 (not sure about the Zebra lux rating), but it was more of a yellow tint in the light. That thing really did hurt the eyes and I had to instantly cover my face. This confirms what Tac Gunner mentioned earlier in his own unscientific tests.

I would really like to something like the new EagleTac T25C2, High Intensity version (~33,000 lux?) with a yellow tint used on "testers" in a YouTube video to see how they react against such a strobe. I think that would be a legitimate use as a self-defense tool. It really isn't proper to call a strobing flashlight a "weapon". But under these circumstances, at night, such a tool could definitely help out someone being attacked, especially when they have don't have immediate access to other self-defense tools.


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## Treeguy (Aug 10, 2015)

MAD777 said:


> I'll throw another angle into this conversation based on the previous question of "what kind of attacker". I'm a backpacker and spend several days at a time trekking through wilderness inhabited by everything from ticks to bears. I sleep in an open hammock and have a good view of my surroundings. I keep a flashlight hanging just above me from my hammock ridgeline. My theory is that a strong strobe might deter a pig, coyote or bear passing through.
> 
> Two things have kept me from gathering any proof of my theory. One is that animals never seem to approach me in the woods. The other is that I sleep so soundly after hiking all day, that I would probably sleep through a bear eating me.
> 
> But, my theory gives me a good excuse to carry some cool gear with me!



Excellent! :laughing:


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## Woods Walker (Aug 10, 2015)

[/QUOTE]

Oh my.....................


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## Tac Gunner (Aug 10, 2015)

Finally watched the Nitecore video, that has to be one of the funniest videos I have seen in a while. I like how the just melt when they get a light shined in their eyes like Frosty get hitting with a blow torch lol.


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## Kestrel (Aug 10, 2015)

Tac Gunner said:


> Finally watched the Nitecore video, that has to be one of the funniest videos I have seen in a while. I like how the just melt when they get a light shined in their eyes like Frosty get hitting with a blow torch lol.


Good summary; my first LOL of the day, thanks.


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## markr6 (Aug 10, 2015)

Chuck Norris charged me, but the strobe was no use. He was able blink at the same frequency of the strobe, effectively turning "off" my light.


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## StarHalo (Aug 10, 2015)

I'D WHIP OUT MY NITECORE AND BE ALL LIKE


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## scs (Aug 10, 2015)

markr6 said:


> Chuck Norris charged me, but the strobe was no use. He was able blink at the same frequency of the strobe, effectively turning "off" my light.



Well done, sir.


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## scs (Aug 10, 2015)

StarHalo said:


> I'D WHIP OUT MY NITECORE AND BE ALL LIKE



Let me guess, Michael Bay directed it.


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## drmaxx (Aug 10, 2015)

Robocop said:


> To sum it up for a true violent situation I would never use strobe nor have I ever seen it used by thousands of other officers. I have seen some who use it fooling around and after feel like it would work. Again there is a big difference between blinding your buddy fooling around and that drug addict who wants your wallet. Good reading here it seems and I do hope my experiences can add a little to this thread. I am simply trying to ensure that others really understand what a real threat is and how to avoid a false sense of security.



Thanks Robocop for some perspective. I always cringe seeing the words [some type of light] "as self-defense weapon". Light / strobe might give you an edge/advantage in a conflict - but it certainly is not able to defend you by itself.


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## cland72 (Aug 10, 2015)

I'm of the opinion that strobe isn't truly effective, even though it is marketed as such. I also think that the only semi-effective way to use a light in self defense is to use it in a manner that is discouraged on this forum 

And this is coming from a guy who owns a TLR-1 HL with strobe.


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## Tac Gunner (Aug 10, 2015)

You're welcome kestrel, I was proud of myself for coming up with it without it taking me more than a couple of seconds lol


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## 1DaveN (Aug 10, 2015)

If I wanted to use the strobe on any of my lights, I'd have to go home and dig out the instructions on how to activate it. Once I got home, I'd have a wider choice of self-defense weapons. So no, never used it for self-defense (although I have made myself crazy a few times by turning it on accidentally).


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## Search (Aug 10, 2015)

Robocop said:


> I have been involved in various strobe usage threads over the years and have always attempted to...



Someone linked a thread from 2009 that discussed this. We both had the same opinion. Interesting yours didn't change much over thr past 6 years. I left LE a while back after workinga few years but I still agree. 

To add my real world experience to this thread.. a bright light is a bright light to the type of person that could be thwarted by a bright light. Strobe or no strobe jt never made a difference. They either fell over drunk or we fought anyway. A light is a tool, not a weapon. The only time I ever saw a light used as a weapon was a mag light. Blunt force trauma and what not.


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## xzel87 (Aug 10, 2015)

+1 to what Robocop said...

I don't think I'll even be able to remember how to get to strobe mode in a threatening, high-stress situation. I'm your regular average office worker type that has no history nor experience of violent confrontation or threatening situation. If a guy is after your wallet, just give it. No point risking your life over money, at least that's what usually happens over here.

If they are out to harm you, for me, I'd just run. If I had a light of some length, I'd use it as a somewhat ineffective blunt force tool. If it was something small, I'd throw it, or I'll just use it as a hard object in my fist.


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## Search (Aug 10, 2015)

xzel87 said:


> +1 to what Robocop said...
> 
> I don't think I'll even be able to remember how to get to strobe mode in a threatening, high-stress situation. I'm your regular average office worker type that has no history nor experience of violent confrontation or threatening situation. If a guy is after your wallet, just give it. No point risking your life over money, at least that's what usually happens over here.
> 
> If they are out to harm you, for me, I'd just run. If I had a light of some length, I'd use it as a somewhat ineffective blunt force tool. If it was something small, I'd throw it, or I'll just use it as a hard object in my fist.



I've seen seasoned cops forget how to use their radio when shtf. KISS wasn't coined because it's cool. The more training and real life experience people have the more they realize simple saves lives. Also knowing when to fight or flee but that's an entirely different sub forum. 

In the absolute few real high stress situations I ever found myself in all I remember is that horrible tunnel vision and focusing on exactly what was happening in front of me. Everything else luckily happened through muscle memory. The less steps your muscle memory takes you the higher your chance of successfully completing them. 

We are humans. We are limited beings.


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## scs (Aug 10, 2015)

Search said:


> I've seen seasoned cops forget how to use their radio when shtf. KISS wasn't coined because it's cool. The more training and real life experience people have the more they realize simple saves lives. Also knowing when to fight or flee but that's an entirely different sub forum.
> 
> In the absolute few real high stress situations I ever found myself in all I remember is that horrible tunnel vision and focusing on exactly what was happening in front of me. Everything else luckily happened through muscle memory. The less steps your muscle memory takes you the higher your chance of successfully completing them.
> 
> We are humans. We are limited beings.



All kidding aside, a flashlight with a sharp striking bezel can be effective as a stabbing weapon or maybe even a slashing weapon. Imagine for a second you're not defending yourself with one, but someone is coming at you with one, intending to stab you and shred you up. Pretty scary. So it's matter of mentality and methodology. Yes, it is very foolish to just light it up, strobe or not, and expect it to somehow stop an assailant, but if you intend to use that just as a temporary diversion to gain the upperhand, even if it's a second or even half of a second, and you follow that up and become the attacker, not defender, it can work, assuming you're trained. A sharp object in the hand of someone with training. Yes, that's better than nothing.

Edit: Sorry, Search. Just noticed I had quoted you by mistake. I was referring to my earlier post, in which I posted the videos.


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## grndslm (Aug 11, 2015)

markr6 said:


> Chuck Norris charged me, but the strobe was no use. He was able blink at the same frequency of the strobe, effectively turning "off" my light.


Speaking of Chuck Norris, I strangely enough *just* watched a Tivo'd episode of Dog the Bounty Hunter. The episode started off with Dog's wife wanting a new flashlight, so "the guys" go into some tactical shop and start strobing each other in the eyes and end up buying a few $200 flashlights. I'm sure they were garbage, but the timing of the episode was quite humorous to me.

When I created this thread, I definitely should have replaced the word "Weapon" with the word "Tool". By definition, a flashlight is not a self-defense weapon... but it _can_ be a self-defense tool if there is nothing else available.

There are a few compact lights that are already capable of throwing ~350 to 450 meters -- T25C2 HI, TN11s v2, M23. The G25C2 HI will be another compact thrower that would burn the hell out of your retinas. I'm sure by the end of this year there will be a dozen lights using the XP-L HI emitter with high Lux ratings as one of the main objectives. This means much better self-defense tools for those who cannot carry a gun everywhere or what have you.

Of course, these compact throwers probably would be fine without the strobe feature at all. Sweeping the light back and forth across some eyeballs is probably just as effective, however, the strobe just allows you to think about other things, like running, an escape route, what the attacker is doing, what other tools do you have available around you that the attacker is not able to see coming.

And perhaps you guys are buying lights that cost hundreds of dollars but have crappy UIs, but the Nitecore light I have will activate strobe with two taps of the Mode button. Pretty simple. Other Nitecores activate strobe by holding the Mode button for more than 1 second. I was reading about one light (forget which one) that activates strobe after holding for 5 seconds, which is at least 2 or 3 seconds too much, but whatever. The TN11s v2 has it's own dedicated strobe button (and not only that, but the frequency of the strobe changes to become more "disorienting". Eagletac has even added a "disorienting strobe" function into some of its lights, in addition to the regular strobe)! More and more lights are coming out with multiple mode buttons, which will make activating strobe something that *is* second nature. Confusing for you? Maybe. Confusing for the person who buys it and practices with it for an hour the first day it comes in the mail? I doubt it.

Point being, I would be hard pressed to believe there is any major flashlight manufacturer who does not see _the future_ of lights being used as self-defensive tools by a HUGE potential market. They're all honing in on these strobe features for one reason, because they know there is a limit at which your eyes are capable of functioning with a given amount of relative and/or consistent light, and I'm sure they believe they are knocking on that limit's door if they have not already achieved it. The reflection of the sun off white cement kills my eyes every day after being inside work for a few hours, so I'm sure there is some magic number of candela or lux that translates into ocular sensory overload for humas.

Actually, it should be fairly easy to determine what that "magic number" is.

50,000 candela @ 1 meter = 50,000 Lux
50,000 candela @ 2 meters = 12,500 Lux

Since most Lux ratings are _probably_ taken at 1 meter.... it should be fairly easy for people to take their throwiest flashlights, put in some fresh batteries, and strobe themselves at night (not inside Walmart) from a 1 meter distance.

There's no reason to NOT be scientific about this. Who can handle 50,000 Lux strobe @ 1 meter? Who can handle 100,000 Lux strobe @ 1 meter? What is your tint? How does a yellow tint affect you versus a white tint of the same rating?

EDIT: Now that I think about the sun's reflection off white cement affecting my eyes, eye color probably is a fairly big factor in this matter as well. Blue eyed people would likely feel the effects moreso than those with hazel eyes, who would feel the effects moreso than those with brown eyes. Another factor to keep this all scientific. Would be nice if someone with enough throwy lights and a video camera could help us with these scientific tests. Clearly there are people here with great cameras and great flashlights.... so why not?


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## dc38 (Aug 11, 2015)

Many high lux lights are not edc friendly. Are you more likely to get mugged walking a dog, or walking home from work?

Strobe just pisses people off unless theyre drunk. Drunks are the only people strobes work on. And people susceptible to siezures.


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## Robocop (Aug 11, 2015)

Search good to hear from you again and I hope all is well for you.....

Nice to see this thread remaining on track and also calm. I enjoy hearing others opinions however have to base my opinions on my personal experiences. I do understand that others may have had good results with strobe and as such would have a much different opinion than myself. Naturally when I do try to explain my thoughts on almost any topic I naturally do so from the perspective of a police officer. Yes unless you have experienced it pure fear and adrenaline will cause your body to do weird things. You can be a super cop on paper or a dang 13 level ninja in training however you never know how one will react that first time it is real.

Your fine motor skills are useless until you really learn to control them under stress and trust me the average every day citizen has no idea how to do so. I was trained for 23 weeks in a wonderful academy and then did 16 weeks training car in a very violent area. In my mind I thought I was invincible and on paper I had the training to back it up. The first time I experienced gunfire from a house I was approaching yes my muscle memory drew my weapon just fine. My muscle memory threw that weapon up on target and muscle memory focused on those sights. My muscle memory however did not scan the area as tunnel vision focused on the window of the house. I never saw the side door open as the suspect just ran away. Lucky for me he chose to run or I would have been killed. I don't remember much of the whole event however do remember regaining some of my senses as the female inside was screaming "he ran that way officer" pointing down the street. That side door was easily visible and 50 feet to my right however it could have been a flaming red elephant and I was just not seeing it....was way too focused on the first threat from where I thought the shot came from.

I remember thinking how did he get out that door and run without me seeing him. Then I also realized that was the stress they had trained us on however again nothing can compare to true life. Long story short I learned to recognize and control a little better the symptoms and also realized I was not nearly as prepared as I thought I was.....I also completely forgot what street I was on when I screamed in my radio for assist units.

In my mind it is hard to realize that most average people do not experience true criminals daily. Most people move about their daily lives and form opinions on things from all types of sources such as magazine ads, internet reading, word of mouth, and silly videos such as the one linked here showing violent criminals freezing in place when strobed. I am sure somewhere there is someone who watched that video and formed an opinion on how effective strobe is. Then this same person may rely on that information someday and find out too late that they had better options.

I see this with each recruit class and every recruit has good intentions however are often misguided. Without fail each one of my recruits will arrive with the latest and greatest gadgets. I have really seen some crazy gadgets with the most popular being fancy laser sites and flashlights with 17 levels. Each recruit when questioned will answer with " I have seen some awesome video reviews on this stuff and it works" Each one also without fail learns quickly what works and they will slowly over time modify their equipment to simple and smooth.

I am a big believer in the less working parts to anything the better it is. Yes strobe has come a long way and some designers actually do a good job of adding strobe as a locked out feature. Again even so I never see any officer use strobe in any other form other than traffic assignment. More parts or bigger more complicated circuits is simply something that may fail when needed. Quick example about gadgets and muscle memory would be a video I watched during an officer street survival course.

Officer involved in a traffic stop and 13 seconds after activating his overhead light and siren he is taking fire. One round penetrates front windshield as the second round hits the open door of his patrol car. Both rounds missed allowing the officer to draw his weapon as he was exiting his car when the first shot happened. The bad guys weapon jammed on the second round and he was reaching under the seat for a 2nd handgun. The officer had 3 seconds (according to the video) to obtain a sight picture and fire however he did not fire.

This happened on a gas station lot that had excellent video outside. The video showed the officer with plenty of time and the weapon pointed at the bad guy however he appeared to be just frozen. Bad guy now produces his 2nd weapon and fires 7 shots with 3 striking the officer. Investigation showed the officers weapon working perfectly with the exception of his laser sight....it had failed. He was so used to the laser being there when it was not there under stress he forgot how to use those big old iron sights that work so very well.

A little off topic from strobe however the principle is the same and given to explain why I feel the way I do towards any type of self defense tool or tactic. Training works and does save lives however training builds better muscle memory and mindset. Training with the right equipment is also fantastic however training with the wrong equipment will set you up for disaster. I believe this is why no department I know actually trains their officers to use strobe. Think about it if it worked it would be trained all over the nation and none I know do so. Case in point I was trained on mace and had to take a big old blast to the face. Yes it worked in training as I stood there blind with snot running down my shirt and just knew when I needed to use mace it would work. Well you guessed it the first time I used it in close quarters with a truly violent crack head sure it made him blind and also made his eyes water and snot was flying everywhere however he almost killed me with his free hands. I was trained on it and had a false sense of security from training with the wrong equipment. In the end it was baton, knuckles and my radio that saved my butt that night. All we had was mace way back then and thus we trained with it however tasers changed everything. They are a much better tool and now we are training with much better equipment. 

Now in a real world again most people do not have the advantage of being an officer with training weekly. Most people are average people not exposed to true violence. When faced with a real threat they have many options that may save their life and a flashlight strobe should be very far down that list in my opinion.

My best advice to anyone who wishes to practice with strobe for any type of sudden defensive action would be go ahead and practice. Become comfortable with your light and its operation however please do not neglect the many other options available. Simple hand to hand skills, chemical options such as mace, handheld tasers, impact weapons such as car keys or keychain kubotan, and above all awareness. Watch your surroundings and put that phone down while walking to your car. I have taken many robbery reports where the victims were surprised and never saw the danger approaching due to being distracted while texting on their phone.

Sorry so long winded however any who know me know that I will ramble on all night trying to sound all important and moderator like. Just a few more thoughts to add to this thread and hope it may help others to think a little. Enjoyed reading this thread actually and so nice to see it moving along drama free.


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## Robocop (Aug 11, 2015)

As a side note just to add some perspective....that crackhead was about 150 lbs and really did not want to go to jail. I had mace and size to my advantage and that little 150 lb dude went about 60 seconds taking all I had. I really would hate to see what a strobe would do to a violent determined criminal like that if I was just the average citizen attacked by surprise. Most people know me here however for those who don't I am adding my photo. Yeah Robocop so I thought.....if a 150 lb cracked out dude can go 60 seconds with me then trust me strobe would not have worked.


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## scs (Aug 11, 2015)

Robocop said:


> As a side note just to add some perspective....that crackhead was about 150 lbs and really did not want to go to jail. I had mace and size to my advantage and that little 150 lb dude went about 60 seconds taking all I had. I really would hate to see what a strobe would do to a violent determined criminal like that if I was just the average citizen attacked by surprise. Most people know me here however for those who don't I am adding my photo. Yeah Robocop so I thought.....if a 150 lb cracked out dude can go 60 seconds with me then trust me strobe would not have worked.



Thanks for sharing your professional experience, Robocop. BTW you live up to your screenname.
The perp was able to tangle with you because your mentality and therefore your approach and methodology were at a disadvantage: as a LEO, you were required by law to play by the rules, which limited what you were legally allowed to do to the guy in that scenario. Had you been fighting for your life, or had you snapped and really wanted to hurt the guy bad, I'm sure you would have made quick work of him.


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## scs (Aug 11, 2015)

And I don't mean you could have shot him, I mean you could have beaten him to a bloody pulp.


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## xzel87 (Aug 11, 2015)

Robocop said:


> As a side note just to add some perspective....that crackhead was about 150 lbs and really did not want to go to jail. I had mace and size to my advantage and that little 150 lb dude went about 60 seconds taking all I had. I really would hate to see what a strobe would do to a violent determined criminal like that if I was just the average citizen attacked by surprise. Most people know me here however for those who don't I am adding my photo. Yeah Robocop so I thought.....if a 150 lb cracked out dude can go 60 seconds with me then trust me strobe would not have worked.



If that guy took 60 seconds of all you had...if it was me I'd have been killed 3 times over. Which is why for average people, I would, as per your advice, advocate that they be alert of their surroundings. We still have idiots here crossing the road without checking out for cars AND while texting. The favourite mugging/robbing MO here seems to be perps on bikes riding by and snatching whatever bag on you, either let go or get dragged along. Imagine how this can be so easily avoided if you are alert.

Learning and practicing basic self-defense moves to buy time or get away can't hurt either.


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## Slumber (Aug 11, 2015)

Thanks for that insight Robocop. It really puts things in perspective for those of us who only have theories and videos from the Internet.


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## fyrstormer (Aug 11, 2015)

If you're in a dark alley being attacked by someone, the backscatter from the strobe will disorient you just as much as it'll disorient your attacker, if not more, because your central nervous system reacts to fear by amplifying its sensitivity as much as possible. If you want to be blind while running for your life, go ahead and use the strobe -- otherwise, just use the normal full-brightness mode for just long enough to see where your attacker is, and then run as fast as you can in the opposite direction -- with the light off, so you're not broadcasting your location to your attacker.

However, an even better solution is to not go into dark alleys.


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## Stream (Aug 12, 2015)

To those who say strobe won't stop an attacker, there are a couple of points that I think are important to keep in mind: 

1) It depends on the determination and mindset of the attacker, in some cases a bright light may disorient him enough to deter him.

2) I can't imagine anyone here thinks a bright light, or strobe mode, will make an attacker drop dead. It all boils down to using whatever you have handy. Heck, even a rolled up magazine could buy you a few seconds.

Lastly, the adrenaline that Robocop talked about will determine more than any other factor. It doesn't matter how well prepared you are if you have never experienced the real life adrenaline of an attack. The light could drop from your hand before you even manage to activate it, you could freeze, not find the button etc. They often say that even a black belt karate master with no real life fight experience will turn to a brown belt after the first blow, a purple belt after the second and so on. This is why I think the biggest issue with using strobe would simply be finding it. 

I remember a Dutch police officer on here said police in The Netherlands had had great success using strobe, but the strobe on their lights was programmed to be instantly activated by the tailcap. It would have been no good to expect anyone to cycle through modes or find a side switch in a high stress situation.


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## dc38 (Aug 12, 2015)

Lets say this: strobe and mace are equated as self defense options. Both will require proper training to deploy effectively. However, the latter (the one that actually induces physical pain) will usually be more effective. As previously mentioned by other members and myself, the shadows and lights scatter can be more disorienting for the user than the attacker, much like a stream of mace fired upwind from too far away.


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## Stream (Aug 12, 2015)

dc38 said:


> Lets say this: strobe and mace are equated as self defense options. Both will require proper training to deploy effectively. However, the latter (the one that actually induces physical pain) will usually be more effective.



Agreed.



dc38 said:


> As previously mentioned by other members and myself, the shadows and lights scatter can be more disorienting for the user than the attacker...



I highly doubt that. Yes, in a pitch black environment it could be disorienting for the user, as well. But more disorienting than if it was pointed straight at you? Try going somewhere very dark, and turn on the strobe. Turn it off, and then turn it back on facing you. Try telling me you can see more from the business end with night adjusted vision than the other way around.


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## grndslm (Aug 12, 2015)

fyrstormer said:


> If you're in a dark alley being attacked by someone, the backscatter from the strobe will disorient you just as much as it'll disorient your attacker, if not more, because your central nervous system reacts to fear by amplifying its sensitivity as much as possible. If you want to be blind while running for your life, go ahead and use the strobe -- otherwise, just use the normal full-brightness mode for just long enough to see where your attacker is, and then run as fast as you can in the opposite direction -- with the light off, so you're not broadcasting your location to your attacker.


Well.... since 50,000 Candela is a good starting point for what I think might be a successful strober (haven't experienced it for myself.... but until someone says otherwise, sounds like a good starting point).. that means such a flashlight puts out 50,000 Lux at 1 Meter. That also means the same flashlight would only put out 12,500 Lux at 2 Meters, only 5,555 Lux at 3 Meters, and only 3,125 Lux at 4 Meters. Realistically, whatever Candela rating it is that is determined to "fry all retinas" is only going to do so at short distances. The closer the better. Even if that alley were painted white, "alley bounce" would only be a problem if you had the attacker pinned up against the wall. Certainly something to keep in mind if you were a Peace Officer in a white alley, yes.

And even still.... the hotspot should be on the attacker's face... if you angle it away from his face, the hotspot would bounce in another direction. So really, not even a problem for them. Reminds me of the proper way to shoot the bad guy in a crowded bank. Drop to the ground and strobe!! I keed. I keed. 



fyrstormer said:


> However, an even better solution is to not go into dark alleys.


Oh man... I tell people this all the time! Don't leave your boxes, people!! There's bad things outside of it...


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## ForrestChump (Aug 12, 2015)

First and foremost, if you see a guy like Robocop coming at you RUN and prey he has been skipping his cardio for the past month. *


Depending on a million factors.* If a single person were to approach me, unprovoked, with the intent to do harm depending on the level of threat ( EX more than one ) simply hitting someone with a throwy light @ 100 lumens while backing away and being accretive "*XXXX OFF!"* would be my approach. ( If there was time. ) I see no need for a dedicated strobe mode. We have all hit ourselves in the face with 100 lumens.... now pretend your some idiot on the street at night and you get 100 lumens to the eyeball out of nowhere. That should give you a heck of a leg up...

Granted this is one specific scenario and depending again, on a million factors, the light might not be my first approach. Especially if there is more than one person and the level of danger.

Im dismissing all the videos linked. I just have this knee jerk reaction to all the "self defense" mojo.... kind of like "cross fit"....is it better than nothing? Probably, but is it _truly_ optimal? No. Unfortunately experience is the best teacher. _That doesn't mean you can pick up a few good rules to increase you chances._

2 things after growing up in a less than savory place. Things pop off in a split second, you can go from a grin to your face in the pavement in 1/2 a second, but no matter were you live there are 2 things in my experience that have proved invaluable.

*Be thoroughly aware of your surroundings at all times.* If approached *make as much space as possible between you and the threat*, this gives you extra time to implement and think about what your going to do. Run if it calls for it, who the hell cares. If thats not an option, WIN. No doubt in your mind, body or soul. WIN. This isn't an ego thing.... you have no idea what the other persons intentions are after your unconscious, I prefer chewing my meals instead of sucking them through a straw. If it's a group quickly take on the loudest one first. Never let anyone behind you, ever. I made that mistake and it cost me a sucker KO to the back of the head, directly to the floor were many unfriendly shoes and boots were waiting for my face. Trying to grab 10 legs being semi conscious from the floor is quiet a challenge..... *had I had the experience and followed my first 2 rules, this would likely have likely been 100% avoided.*

Last but not least make sure you are not the provoker, make a true effort to deescalate the situation first. Getting punched in the back of the head and stomped in the face teaches you more in 30 seconds than any 30 minute video.

*Be safe.*


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## Robocop (Aug 14, 2015)

I do remember the older thread where the dutch officer had been testing out strobe with his department and it was interesting. From what I remember he found that it was not so much the actual brightness but the rate of strobe that was most important for results.

I also remember him saying that his usage of strobe was usually used for disorderly drunks with good results. It was a long thread and pretty well discussed. In the end what I gathered from that thread was in his area of the world armed criminals were very rare however in the good old U.S.A. there are hundreds of armed assaults daily.

I believe the op was intending for input on defense from a random attack on a citizen and not geared towards police work so perhaps my opinion is a little biased. If nothing else maybe our discussions of this topic will give some ideas to makers so lights will continue to evolve and improve which means all us flashlight geeks can have more toys.

The only flashlight I can remember actually made for defensive use was the old Tiger-Light. Actually a pretty neat design and very rugged light. It was a little large for actual EDC and designed for police duty belts however it actually worked very well for a last minute defensive option. It was designed to carry a big can of mace in the tailcap and if carried correctly it could be rotated and sprayed without the bad guy ever seeing it coming. One second your holding your light on them then while never letting go of the light they are blasted with mace if they rush you. 

It was thinking outside the box that brought that light to market so maybe others will continue that thinking. Maybe a taser light that runs from a single AAA with keychain attachment ......HA funny but would be so very neat to have.


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## Stream (Aug 18, 2015)

Robocop said:


> I also remember him saying that his usage of strobe was usually used for disorderly drunks with good results.



Yeah, I think I remember that too. I can imagine strobe would be useful for dealing with disorderly drunks, but it would probably be a horrible idea for a felony stop type of situation :duck:.



Robocop said:


> In the end what I gathered from that thread was in his area of the world armed criminals were very rare however in the good old U.S.A. there are hundreds of armed assaults daily.



Having lived nearly a decade in the US, I know that there is a noticeable difference in policing style. Cops in America are typically much more nervous and cautious, whereas in Europe they are generally more relaxed, and it doesn't seem like they are expecting to get shot at with every traffic stop. This is probably because legal and illegal handgun ownership is so widespread in the US. 

However, Europe is a rapidly changing place, and high crime rates along with gun violence are becoming the norm. Here in Sweden, there are numerous shootings every day in the largest cities, and criminals can easily obtain illegal handguns. For the most part the shootings are gang related, and confined to certain neighborhoods. Although, Malmö (the third largest city) is starting to resemble an all out war zone, with explosions and a high number of shootings in the past few months. Things keep getting worse across most of Western Europe, and I can't imagine The Netherlands being an exception.



Robocop said:


> The only flashlight I can remember actually made for defensive use was the old Tiger-Light.



I remember Tiger-Light, there was a lot of talk about it here many years ago. It seemed pretty cool, but unfortunately it wouldn't be legal to buy it in my part of the world.



Robocop said:


> I believe the op was intending for input on defense from a random attack on a citizen and not geared towards police work so perhaps my opinion is a little biased.



I think strobe could buy the average citizen a second or two, but it's knowing what to do next that will determine the outcome. The Nitecore flashlight self-defense video posted on the previous page is an interesting display, and how I imagine the use of strobe could be effective in a self-defense scenario. Although I can't imagine cops being allowed to use a flashlight to strike anyone in such a fashion.


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## Stream (Aug 18, 2015)

Search said:


> I've seen seasoned cops forget how to use their radio when shtf. KISS wasn't coined because it's cool. The more training and real life experience people have the more they realize simple saves lives. Also knowing when to fight or flee but that's an entirely different sub forum.
> 
> In the absolute few real high stress situations I ever found myself in all I remember is that horrible tunnel vision and focusing on exactly what was happening in front of me. Everything else luckily happened through muscle memory. The less steps your muscle memory takes you the higher your chance of successfully completing them.
> 
> We are humans. We are limited beings.



This is also why complex martial arts like Karate are mostly useless in real fights, and skills like boxing and wrestling are more effective.


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## xzel87 (Aug 18, 2015)

Stream said:


> This is also why complex martial arts like Karate are mostly useless in real fights, and skills like boxing and wrestling are more effective.



Karate isn't complex, it's all about muscle memory. Karate and other traditional self defense martial arts have basic defensive and offensive movements,when practiced and made into muscle memory can be very effective. z needless to say when advanced level are mastered it is even more deadly. Problem nowadays is that it is being treated as a sport, and less of a lethal self defense technique.


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## Stream (Aug 18, 2015)

xzel87 said:


> Karate isn't complex...



I knew someone was going to say that, but my point was just that it's more complex than boxing. And the less you have to remember in a high adrenaline situation, the more likely you are able to execute any of it.


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## d88 (Aug 19, 2015)

Stream said:


> I knew someone was going to say that, but my point was just that it's more complex than boxing. And the less you have to remember in a high adrenaline situation, the more likely you are able to execute any of it.



Not really, the basics of karate are no more complex than boxing. You don't need to learn complex moves to be effective, just learn and execute your moves to a high degree. When I learned (Shotokan) karate, at least 1/2 of our time was going through basic moves ad nauseam. We were never let loose on anything complex until we were near black belt level.

I'm not suggesting karate is anyway more effective than boxing, it depends on the individual and how well they have learned their discipline. A good boxer will obviously knock 7 bells out of someone who thinks they're Bruce Lee after watching Enter the Dragon on Netflix.


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## Kestrel (Aug 19, 2015)

Anybody can feel free to start a martial arts thread in the Café I'm thinking - that is most certainly a whole 'nother topic.


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## Rick NJ (Aug 24, 2015)

Robocop said:


> ....
> I can tell you from experience if you shine a strobe light at a crazed criminal on meth who is charging you in that alley you will be killed. Now that sloppy drunk who is just annoying you may be fun to strobe however again please do not get yourself hurt thinking a strobe feature is a self defense tool. The best thing to use is your smarts and avoid conflict all together. Any type of chemical deterrent, impact weapon, taser, or hand to hand skills will do you much better than a strobe. Practice often and remain alert is sound advice for any who wish to listen.
> ...



I sure appreciate your experience. Having asked my daughter to take a flashlight with her for her walks, I just updated her with your input. Since likely she would be pointing the light the attacker's direction to identify an attacker, I told her to just blinding the human attacker with a couple of seconds of light and then leave - and run if someone appears to be following, and scream if she knows the guy is after her.

I am still telling her to use that against animal - *specifically dogs*. We have a perhaps-homeless dog near by. She gets aggressive when she is eating. I leave cat food outside particularly during winter for a couple of homeless cats. I'm okay when the dog gets it first. One time, after finishing the cat food, the dog decided to start on my garbage (can) and got really aggressive when I attempted to get her away. * Recalling my own exercise walks and (different) dogs, flash light works,* I started to carry a flash light when I walk my garbage out. My last encounter with this dog (at the garbage) was couple of years back with just a 2AA minimag (incandescent) then, the dog just left after I spot the light at her face. Since that encounter, the dog (mostly) just leave after she finished the cat food - she seem to have learned I get "aggressive" (ie:light on her face) if she gets aggressive.

At times, I am not sure if I am doing the homeless cats a favor - one homeless for sure, another likely homeless. The cat is pretty good with their schedule avoiding the dog. One cat did got badly hurt after a run-in with the dog. I feel so bad when I see the two cats trying to find food in the winter, but that keeps the dog around, and every now and again, they happen to come at the same time...


----------



## xzel87 (Aug 24, 2015)

Rick NJ said:


> I sure appreciate your experience. Having asked my daughter to take a flashlight with her for her walks, I just updated her with your input. Since likely she would be pointing the light the attacker's direction to identify an attacker, I told her to just blinding the human attacker with a couple of seconds of light and then leave - and run if someone appears to be following, and scream if she knows the guy is after her.
> 
> I am still telling her to use that against animal - *specifically dogs*. We have a perhaps-homeless dog near by. She gets aggressive when she is eating. I leave cat food outside particularly during winter for a couple of homeless cats. I'm okay when the dog gets it first. One time, after finishing the cat food, the dog decided to start on my garbage (can) and got really aggressive when I attempted to get her away. * Recalling my own exercise walks and (different) dogs, flash light works,* I started to carry a flash light when I walk my garbage out. My last encounter with this dog (at the garbage) was couple of years back with just a 2AA minimag (incandescent) then, the dog just left after I spot the light at her face. Since that encounter, the dog (mostly) just leave after she finished the cat food - she seem to have learned I get "aggressive" (ie:light on her face) if she gets aggressive.
> 
> At times, I am not sure if I am doing the homeless cats a favor - one homeless for sure, another likely homeless. The cat is pretty good with their schedule avoiding the dog. One cat did got badly hurt after a run-in with the dog. I feel so bad when I see the two cats trying to find food in the winter, but that keeps the dog around, and every now and again, they happen to come at the same time...



You did your best to be kind to animals, don't feel bad if it doesn't work out, you did your part and the rest is up to nature. People that aren't responsible enough to own pets end up abandoning them one way or another, or not neuter them resulting in abandoned little kittens or pups.

Back on topic, I do agree that light (of certain intensity) works somewhat on dogs. They won't act as if they are terrified but they will stop or look away. I'm not so sure if it works on a vicious dog that has its mind bent on chewing you up though.


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## NoNotAgain (Aug 25, 2015)

All of my Nitecore lights have a strobe feature. Other than the P20's, none of them are fast to access. My Fenix TK series lights are all accessible with a single push and hold of the mode button for a second or so.

If it's dark outside, getting hit in the eyes with 800-4000 strobing lumens is totally disorienting. Am I going to place my life on a light deterring a wood-be attacker? Not on your life. 

The police agencies in this area received tons of federal money which they spent on strobe lights for their cars. They are blinding when behind you as well as if they have a traffic stop on the side of the road.


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## SeamusORiley (Aug 29, 2015)

*General Tactical Self Defense Question About Lumens*

We have always preferred the blinding light to deter crime but recently I learned that it works with aggressive dogs...the rapid flashing caused an aggressive shepherd to lose his aim towards me, and I was grateful as I moved away. 

I wondered, though, much rather to use a light than something like pepper spray, is there a basic minimum lumen range that works well in self protection?

The one I used successfully was rated 900 lumens. 

Also, is greater range actually more effective in self defense? I think lumens might be more important, but I thought I would throw this in, too. 

I always love learning here.


----------



## ForrestChump (Aug 29, 2015)

*Re: General Tactical Self Defense Question About Lumens*

Im sure a search would turn up much better results than my post, but a couple points.

900 lumen strobe is like a light saber to an unsuspecting threat. I don't know dogs light tolerance, it actually seems higher than a humans but as far as people even a 100 lumen blast will get the best of someone @ night that isn't expecting it depending on the situation. 900 would be 800 times "better" though. It's not so much range per say but the intensity of the light and how it's focused. If shined at a threat, 100 lumen flood will be less effective than 100 lumen throw due to intensity. Not to mention the more space between you and the threat is better, so naturaly something that is more effective at a greater range would may be desirable depending on the circumstance. but with something more focused _you_ have to focus on getting the hot spot where you want it. Something to consider in a high stress situation.

All that said I got to throw up the disclaimer: only do something like this out of self preservation....

Thats all I really got for you. Im sure there will be many comments to follow....


----------



## SeamusORiley (Aug 29, 2015)

*Re: General Tactical Self Defense Question About Lumens*

Thanks. Self defense has not been an issue, over the years I have been here in the forum, but it came up recently. 

I played with my own dog who catches a tennis ball with extreme skill. With the strobe, he just stares straight ahead! 

The incident I described was too close for comfort, and I kept moving away from the dog...somewhat backwards, but while keeping my body in side direction; so it would not be a retreat to chase me, nor would it be a direct confrontation of face to face, either. It was unpleasant.


----------



## Treeguy (Aug 29, 2015)

*Re: General Tactical Self Defense Question About Lumens*

I read a story that a guy is a "dog-proof" suit with a 200 lumen light stopped a trained attack dog that was sent in to get him. I think the story was posted on the Surefire site. 

I've been carrying a 320 lumen 6PX Defender on my nightly walks for quite a while because some people don't control their dogs, and some of the dogs are big enough to cause a problem if loose. Especially that big German Shepard down the hill.


----------



## Stefano (Aug 29, 2015)

*Re: General Tactical Self Defense Question About Lumens*

I was attacked two occasions by dogs.
Both times the flashlight has saved me, but both times it was total darkness.
I always wondered if during the day the flashlight would have been equally effective :thinking:
Power Used: 315 to 850 lumens
(I have not used the strobe in any of the two cases)


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## ForrestChump (Aug 29, 2015)

*Re: General Tactical Self Defense Question About Lumens*



SeamusORiley said:


> Thanks. Self defense has not been an issue, over the years I have been here in the forum, but it came up recently.
> 
> I played with my own dog who catches a tennis ball with extreme skill. With the strobe, he just stares straight ahead!
> 
> The incident I described was too close for comfort, and I kept moving away from the dog...somewhat backwards, but while keeping my body in side direction; so it would not be a retreat to chase me, nor would it be a direct confrontation of face to face, either. It was unpleasant.



seems like you did the right thing. I would have not had the wisdom or self discipline you did and it likely would have cost me a few chunks missing.


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## Treeguy (Aug 29, 2015)

*Re: General Tactical Self Defense Question About Lumens*



Stefano said:


> I was attacked two occasions by dogs.
> Both times the flashlight has saved me, but both times it was total darkness.
> I always wondered if during the day the flashlight would have been equally effective :thinking:
> Power Used: 315 to 850 lumens
> (I have not used the strobe in any of the two cases)



Glad you came away unscathed. :thumbsup:

This is why I like a very simple flashlight for a "dog light". My 6PX Defender has one setting (max only) and a rear momentary clicky. It's either on or off. No muss, no fuss.


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## Parrot Quack (Aug 29, 2015)

*Re: General Tactical Self Defense Question About Lumens*

I pretty much have a couple of lights and a can of bear spray. The point? How easy life is, if you let it be easy.

Dogs ain't stupid. Let the dog know that you know it's there and keep moving on down the road.


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## StriderSMF (Aug 30, 2015)

*Re: General Tactical Self Defense Question About Lumens*

I stopped a very large charging German Shepard on a night time walk with my old klarus XT11 600 lumens i didnt use the strobe function just max output froze it right in its tracks about 7 feet away, it just stopped from a full run and stared into the light,some guy was running it next to his golf cart at about 9pm.I think it might have been a police dog in training because the guy shouted out commands in german and it went back to running along side his cart at a very fast speed. ,I now carry a Thrunite TN11s v2.


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## D6859 (Aug 30, 2015)

*Re: General Tactical Self Defense Question About Lumens*

I noticed that 280 lumens from my Thrunite TN12 was not enough to stop two drunken teenaged festival customers this year. The area I where I used the light was lit and they were heading towards my co-worker so they were not focused in my light. Last year I stopped group of four teenaged kids with 800 lm mode when they were trying to sneak into the area in the darkness. I think the effect depends on the lightning of the area and wether the customer is sober or drunk.


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## Joe Talmadge (Aug 30, 2015)

*Re: General Tactical Self Defense Question About Lumens*

Check back on your thread often; it may be deemed verboten and removed, depending on how the cpf rules are interpreted

I think one of the important things to note is that I don't know about any controlled studies. All we have are anecdotes. And the anecdotes with dogs are: sometimes dogs stop or are dissuaded by bright strobed light, sometimes they aren't. Just like with people, some stop, some don't. It depends on the person and the context -- how shocked are they, how sensitive to the light are they, mentally were they just looking for an excuse to break off before contact? You might try your strobe on a different dog and have no effect; hell, you might try it on the same dog with no effect next time. It's a light, it can probably buy you a very brief moment of pause, after that no guarantees.



> Also, is greater range actually more effective in self defense?



I'd say it's the only thing that matters, and the only things that high lumens buy you are: 1. Bigger hotspot might be easier to aim, and 2. _all things being equal_, higher lumens will equal higher lux (but things are rarely equal), and 3. Depending on the situation, you might also want to light up the rest of the room/surroundings to identify other threats. Which is why, in my favorite form factor -- 1" 1x18650 lights -- you might be kind of interested in this: http://eagletac.com/html/dx30lc2/specs.html 40-50% more lux than most lights this size.


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## KITROBASKIN (Aug 30, 2015)

*Re: General Tactical Self Defense Question About Lumens*

I was friends with a neighbor who purchased a trained security dog from Germany. Occasionally that dog would go all BatScat and (I think) she would yell "Platz!" 

Our local meter readers who need to get out of the truck have a tool on their belt called the Bite Terminator. This can help them avoid a lawsuit with a homeowner for damaging a dog in self defense.


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## Woods Walker (Aug 30, 2015)

*Re: General Tactical Self Defense Question About Lumens*

I think a search will also show that historically the topic of using a flashlight as a self defense tool has been discouraged on CPF. Speaking for myself I do feel better when night hiking in the dank spooky woods if my light has the ability to really illuminate the entire area if needed. That said I would honestly consider another option for self defense.


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## OnlyownEnergizer250lumen (Aug 30, 2015)

*Re: General Tactical Self Defense Question About Lumens*



Joe Talmadge said:


> I'd say it's the only thing that matters, and the only things that high lumens buy you are: 1. Bigger hotspot might be easier to aim, and 2. _all things being equal_, higher lumens will equal higher lux (but things are rarely equal), and 3. Depending on the situation, you might also want to light up the rest of the room/surroundings to identify other threats. Which is why, in my favorite form factor -- 1" 1x18650 lights -- you might be kind of interested in this: http://eagletac.com/html/dx30lc2/specs.html 40-50% more lux than most lights this size.



Whoa!! I wish I found that light before I bought my Nitecore MH20! :l Just what I was looking for, except no one pointed me to it. Only problem is that it doesn't have USB recharging capability so I'd need to buy a 18650 charger but still, that thing is nice!!!!!!


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## Parrot Quack (Aug 30, 2015)

*Re: General Tactical Self Defense Question About Lumens*



OnlyownEnergizer250lumen said:


> Whoa!! I wish I found that light before I bought my Nitecore MH20! :l Just what I was looking for, except no one pointed me to it. Only problem is that it doesn't have USB recharging capability so I'd need to buy a 18650 charger but still, that thing is nice!!!!!!



Why not be happy with the MH20?


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## ForrestChump (Aug 30, 2015)

*Re: General Tactical Self Defense Question About Lumens*



KITROBASKIN said:


> I was friends with a neighbor who purchased a trained security dog from Germany. Occasionally that dog would go all BatScat and (I think) she would yell "Platz!"
> 
> Our local meter readers who need to get out of the truck have a tool on their belt called the Bite Terminator. This can help them avoid a lawsuit with a homeowner for damaging a dog in self defense.



This is it.....really...



Woods Walker said:


> *I think a search will also show that historically the topic of using a flashlight as a self defense tool has been discouraged on CPF.* Speaking for myself I do feel better when night hiking in the dank spooky woods if my light has the ability to really illuminate the entire area if needed. That said I would honestly consider another option for self defense.



Discouraged from discussing lights as an *impact weapon*, which, unfortunately some of these threads devolve into ....causing more mod work..then they lock em up. Im with you on the last sentence. Wouldn't hurt to light them up though!


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## Monocrom (Aug 31, 2015)

*Re: General Tactical Self Defense Question About Lumens*

Sorry guys, but let's be realistic. I'm not relying on any light, and I own a handful of lumen monsters, to protect me from a dog. Maybe if I owned a 5 or 6 cell Mag or similar model to use as a club. But no, not even then. Use the light to find the dog and what direction its coming from. Use pepper-spray to actually fend it off. 

Last thing I want to read on these boards is how a member ended up in the hospital because his light didn't work for a purpose it was never created for.


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## StriderSMF (Aug 31, 2015)

*Re: General Tactical Self Defense Question About Lumens*

god you cant even have any fun conversations on any of these forums anymore to many politically correct wimps rolling in with every bad scenario they can think of, cant even talk about an experiences you've had or they will tear it apart as to what could or should have happened. :shakehead


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## OnlyownEnergizer250lumen (Aug 31, 2015)

*Re: General Tactical Self Defense Question About Lumens*



Parrot Quack said:


> Why not be happy with the MH20?



I am very happy with the MH20! But for such a small light (.9 head, .8 body, 5in length) to put out 280 meter throw?? I bought the MH20 with a thick head cause I thought it was helping its throw ability considerably.. (10-30m more throw than most lights i could find in any comparable size) but 220m vs 280m for something with waaaaaaay thinner body and barely longer is mind blowingly attractive. Seems next-gen but I see no reviews for it yet. Not rechargeable though. Considering this thread is about self defense and lumens, not only does it have a much brighter hotspot, but 160 more lumens than the MH20. AND a tail switch for tactical use. Everything about it is better than the MH20 except for the inability to USB recharge from what I can see...


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## WarRaven (Aug 31, 2015)

*Re: General Tactical Self Defense Question About Lumens*

With modded lights like anything else, there are trade offs.
Need special cells, runtime is reduced from OEM, heat is not ignorable, light and throw, heat sinking has all been improved greatly.
Though most OEM come with stellar warranties now, and do not need a disclaimer to use.
Can't lend it, can't use unattended, details are king. 
If these details can accepted, then there you go.
Jmtc that IMO, OEM and warranties by a large manufacturer are king to me, YMMV.

For the record, I do not not own one modded light.
I've no interest, my life's up and down and forgotten details can bite me.


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## Kestrel (Aug 31, 2015)

SeamusORiley said:


> We have always preferred the blinding light to deter crime but recently I learned that it works with aggressive dogs...the rapid flashing caused an aggressive shepherd to lose his aim towards me, and I was grateful as I moved away.
> 
> I wondered, though, much rather to use a light than something like pepper spray, is there a basic minimum lumen range that works well in self protection?
> 
> ...



Just a FYI, we have a current thread on this topic which has been rather well-developed over the past month or so; I am merging this new thread with the prior one.



Joe Talmadge said:


> Check back on your thread often; it may be deemed verboten and removed, depending on how the cpf rules are interpreted.


Please note the context of said concerns; using a flashlight for* physical *defense is not encouraged here on CPF due to how poorly the topic has been handled by some members in recent years, among other reasons.



Woods Walker said:


> I think a search will also show that historically the topic of using a flashlight as a self defense tool has been discouraged on CPF.
> Speaking for myself I do feel better when night hiking in the dank spooky woods if my light has the ability to really illuminate the entire area if needed.
> That said I would honestly consider another option for self defense.


*Exactly*, I couldn't say it better myself :thumbsup: (in fact I'm obviously not as good about being so concise) - other options can most certainly be better.
Edit: In fact, I liked your post so much I took the liberty of breaking it down into three separate points - each can stand alone re: their individual validity, and all are very important IMO. 

Related to point #3 above; of the few options I keep at hand, I happen to be partial to my S&W's.
We do have a flashlights/handguns/knives thread here on CPF which briefly documents that aspect: *Flashlights, Pistols, and Blades...*
A check of that thread has it at over 700 posts by now, and still running strong.

There are numerous other forums that can and do cover these other interests very well - *this* is primarily a forum for flashlight enthusiasts and related topics.

Personally, I happen to spend time on a few firearms forums. One topic I don't really bother with discussing on those forums is *flashlights*, as there is a better forum for that - here. 



StriderSMF said:


> god you cant even have any fun conversations on any of these forums anymore to many politically correct wimps rolling in with every bad scenario they can think of, cant even talk about an experiences you've had or they will tear it apart as to what could or should have happened. :shakehead


After parsing out your statement into what I believe to be the pertinent points, I find your position somewhat ironic, given my interest & occasional correspondence in this topic:
*Low light / Night fire training class*
Related irony is actually getting a PM from a CPF member accusing me of being some sort of anti-self-defense peacenik after moderating (& discouraging) a poorly-thought-out "defense"   thread, when I am actually exceedingly-well-defended at most any time of the day or night. (They apparently missed the point that I as well as others were trying to make in that thread, e.g. the approach taken in that specific case was a very poor one.) My personal feelings about that topic is that the capability for self-defense is both honorable & desirable; however I think that most CPF members would agree that CPF isn't the most appropriate or applicable forum for that subject.

The fun thing about online forums is that we can find one on most any fun topic that interests us.
I don't know what your specific complaints are about political-correctness but I'm guessing that they may be off-topic for this thread. We do have the *CPF Underground* forum which may provide a satisfactory venue for your thoughts in this regard.

----------

Was just hoping to clarify a few topics here this morning. Now back to your regularly-scheduled programming.


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## ForrestChump (Aug 31, 2015)

*Re: General Tactical Self Defense Question About Lumens*



Woods Walker said:


> I think a search will also show that historically the topic of using a flashlight as a self defense tool has been discouraged on CPF. Speaking for myself I do feel better when night hiking in the dank spooky woods if my light has the ability to really illuminate the entire area if needed. That said I would honestly consider another option for self defense.




Sorry, but most of us leave our sledge hammers home when we go out for a hike.


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## dazzleaj (Aug 31, 2015)

*Re: General Tactical Self Defense Question About Lumens*

When my son came back from his first deployment to Iraq he gave me a NovaTac SPAdefense, SPL-120. They used them in late night traffic and pedestrian stops to temporarily disorient a person that they had concerns with in order to physically restrain them. The alternative was to shoot them. This gave them the heartbeat needed to get their hands on the person. Remember this was a group of trained soldiers with a very specific goal, Not to get killed! I don't think it is the same thing as a girl in a parking lot trying not to get raped. I would never use it as a self defense weapon.


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## kyhunter1 (Aug 31, 2015)

*Re: General Tactical Self Defense Question About Lumens*

Ive used strobe to keep the neighbors dogs at bay in the past. They refuse to keep them confined to their own property. The dogs bite at my feet as I bike past them. If a light with strobe is the only weapon I have on me, then it will be used. I have a licensed conceal carry permit and have other options for self defense. I care less about what anybody else thinks about that. Would rather not end up in a situation requiring the use of a strobe to start with. There is a pretty high chance that my light will be attached to something much more effective.


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## Jiri (Oct 20, 2015)

Tac Gunner said:


> I have never done any scientific studies on the use of strobe as a defensive tool but from just some impromptu tests I have done on different friends, strobe would be useless with most lights. Yes it would surprise someone but it really isn't that hard to fight through it.
> 
> I had some friends over one night and we were looking at my lights and of course everyone was playing with the strobe modes because they are the coolest modes to non flashaholics. I decided to test the effectiveness of using strobe to disorient a person so I grabbed my Eagletac sx25l2t (1000 lumen, 81,500 lux @ 1m), set it to the alternating strobe mode, and had somebody run at me from about 20 feet. Everyone of them was able to run right at me and grab me. We did this four or five times with the same results. We tried it with the blue and green lenses with the same results. The only time we found it to be completely disorienting enough to do good was with the yellow lens. I'm not sure why but it was actually painful to look at with the yellow lens.
> 
> ...




Did you have general lights off or lights on during the night test? DIfferent situation is when you shine someone when his eyes and his pupils are already adapted to night / or adapted to light.


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## Tac Gunner (Oct 20, 2015)

Jiri said:


> Did you have general lights off or lights on during the night test? DIfferent situation is when you shine someone when his eyes and his pupils are already adapted to night / or adapted to light.



We had been inside with the lights on when we went outside. It was dark with no surrounding lights when we did it but no our eyes were not fully adapted. I understand the difference if our eyes had been fully adapted but I still don't feel like it would be enough to be a real self defense option. Most of the time parking garages, parking lots, parks, stadiums, etc have just enough ambient lighting that an attacker's eyes wouldn't be fully adapted anyways. 

IMO the best self defense use for a light is a preventive tool using it to check around your vehicle before walking to it, checking your path from your car to house, and just use it in a way that says to a potential attacker you are alert and not as easy pickings as the other person who has their face buried in their phone. If you are alert to your surroundings and pay attention that by itself helps deter a lot of attacks. Of course it comes down to it use your light to illuminate your target and while drawing your ccw.


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## Jiri (Oct 20, 2015)

Tac Gunner said:


> We had been inside with the lights on when we went outside. It was dark with no surrounding lights when we did it but no our eyes were not fully adapted. I understand the difference if our eyes had been fully adapted but I still don't feel like it would be enough to be a real self defense option. Most of the time parking garages, parking lots, parks, stadiums, etc have just enough ambient lighting that an attacker's eyes wouldn't be fully adapted anyways.
> 
> IMO the best self defense use for a light is a preventive tool using it to check around your vehicle before walking to it, checking your path from your car to house, and just use it in a way that says to a potential attacker you are alert and not as easy pickings as the other person who has their face buried in their phone. If you are alert to your surroundings and pay attention that by itself helps deter a lot of attacks. Of course it comes down to it use your light to illuminate your target and while drawing your ccw.




I must totally agree with you! I defenitely use a flashlight as a preventive tool. I have got different means of self-defense always on me... awareness of my surroundigs is one of them. Off course... a good tactical flashlight with crenulated bezel can serve as a self-defense tool as well, if necessary.


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## Tac Gunner (Oct 20, 2015)

Jiri said:


> I must totally agree with you! I defenitely use a flashlight as a preventive tool. I have got different means of self-defense always on me... awareness of my surroundigs is one of them. Off course... a good tactical flashlight with crenulated bezel can serve as a self-defense tool as well, if necessary.



I'm not saying I wouldn't use my light if it was the only thing I have, which being I'm not 21 till May a knife and light is all I have, but I'm going to do everything I can to keep it from getting to hands on.


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## Tre_Asay (Oct 21, 2015)

Tac Gunner said:


> IMO the best self defense use for a light is a preventive tool using it to check around your vehicle before walking to it, checking your path from your car to house, and just use it in a way that says to a potential attacker you are alert and not as easy pickings as the other person who has their face buried in their phone. If you are alert to your surroundings and pay attention that by itself helps deter a lot of attacks. Of course it comes down to it use your light to illuminate your target and while drawing your ccw.



That is in line with my preferred use of a flash*light - *to illuminate my surroundings and gain insight of places that I can't see. I remember a surefire publication that was talking about tactical use of flashlights, most importantly lighting up "black holes" (a good example is just past the cone of light that a streetlamp provides) where there is not enough light to see. They also mentioned using a constant light to temporarily blind an attacker to give time to start running away. If I was to carry a dedicated self defense tool it would probably be a collapsing batton, as I don't intend to carry a light larger than a 1x18650, and while I don't have any real combat experience I have a good swing and a 26'' batton beats a 3 inch knife in my book. Of course that would be a last resort as I can run pretty fast on adrenaline. 

I think that the greatest thing anyone can do to be prepared for self defense is mental readiness through proper training and awareness of surroundings.
Best way to survive an attack is to not get attacked.


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## Blackstuff (Oct 21, 2015)

A bit bizarre that almost all of the 'tests' mentioned in this thread (i skipped page 3) are on people EXPECTING to be strobed  There is a huge difference between expecting it and it being set off without the 'strobee' knowing whats coming. I have made someone be physically sick using a Klarus XT10 on strobe (Admittedly they were drunk which is probably the only reason they agreed to do it). And as for someone still being able to charge into you if you stand in the same place after/during strobing them, well no sh*t they're going to be able to find you if all they have to do is continue in a straight line  The whole point of strobing it to get the other person to shut their eyes/lose focus momentarily so you can move out of the way if they're coming at you or to be able to hit them without them having their guard up or knowing where its coming from. :thumbsup:

If people were expecting a strobe to be a stun ray ala Star Trek its unsurprising that they've been disappointed :ironic:


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## Jiri (Oct 21, 2015)

Blackstuff said:


> A bit bizarre that almost all of the 'tests' mentioned in this thread (i skipped page 3) are on people EXPECTING to be strobed  There is a huge difference between expecting it and it being set off without the 'strobee' knowing whats coming. I have made someone be physically sick using a Klarus XT10 on strobe (Admittedly they were drunk which is probably the only reason they agreed to do it). And as for someone still being able to charge into you if you stand in the same place after/during strobing them, well no sh*t they're going to be able to find you if all they have to do is continue in a straight line  The whole point of strobing it to get the other person to shut their eyes/lose focus momentarily so you can move out of the way if they're coming at you or to be able to hit them without them having their guard up or knowing where its coming from. :thumbsup:
> 
> If people were expecting a strobe to be a stun ray ala Star Trek its unsurprising that they've been disappointed :ironic:




Agreed! +1


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## wjv (Oct 21, 2015)

Not against a human, but. . . 

From my posting here: http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb...ing-my-face-gnawed-off!&p=4732109#post4732109

About a month ago I walked out of my camper and came face to face with 2 large racoons. . 

The short story was:

observations:

- The TK51 @ 1,800 lumens right in their eyes had zero effect on them. They just looked at me like I was an idiot. . .

- The LD50 on strobe @1,800 lumens right in their eyes also had no effect on them. Again, they just looked at me like I was an idiot. . .

- The TK51 @ 1,800 lumens PLUS The LD50 at 1,800 lumens right in their eyes also had no effect on them. Again, they just looked at me like I was an idiot. . .

Granted these were racoons, not humans, but I'm quite sure that some meth-head or PCP freak might just have a similar reaction.

I did have a firearm in my camper, but since they were not being hostile/aggressive, it seemed the best approach ultimately was to just let them "do their thing" and eventually they moved on.


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## Jiri (Oct 21, 2015)

wjv said:


> Not against a human, but. . .
> 
> From my posting here: http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb...ing-my-face-gnawed-off!&p=4732109#post4732109
> 
> ...




No offense here... but that's exactly what animals do when they spot someting unfamiliar... they observe. Not just racoons but also a deer and many other animals. Point is, their reactions would be slower or different in the situation especially if you would turn the lights off (they would be kind of blind and suprised by the unfamilliar situation... they just observe untill they assume that you are really a thread. That's what animals as well as humans have eyes for...to observe and evaluate.  It is not real expectation that the animal would run away from you, just because of the light... and if you expect the same reaction with people on math/PCP... it is much more surreal. 

I used a strobe on a dog once when he approached me and started barking at me.... nothing happened... the dog was just continued to bark at me. Strobe is more of a distration for few seconds of the animal or human, not a tool to win a confrontation.


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## Tac Gunner (Oct 21, 2015)

Blackstuff said:


> A bit bizarre that almost all of the 'tests' mentioned in this thread (i skipped page 3) are on people EXPECTING to be strobed  There is a huge difference between expecting it and it being set off without the 'strobee' knowing whats coming. I have made someone be physically sick using a Klarus XT10 on strobe (Admittedly they were drunk which is probably the only reason they agreed to do it). And as for someone still being able to charge into you if you stand in the same place after/during strobing them, well no sh*t they're going to be able to find you if all they have to do is continue in a straight line  The whole point of strobing it to get the other person to shut their eyes/lose focus momentarily so you can move out of the way if they're coming at you or to be able to hit them without them having their guard up or knowing where its coming from. :thumbsup:
> 
> If people were expecting a strobe to be a stun ray ala Star Trek its unsurprising that they've been disappointed :ironic:



I agree it might be different if you aren't expecting it but I really don't think it would be enough of a difference to be a viable self defense option. As for the comment about people being able to charge you if you stand in one place, I know that when I tried it I moved around, dodged side to side, front to back, etc and the person charging me was still fully able to find and grab me. When I was on the receiving end I could blink and keep my head down and just go for the light no matter how much the person moved. Strobe settings just don't work. 

Also I think the majority of people here understand we aren't in Star Trek and that strobes aren't a stun ray. Have you done any type of testing other than on drunk people?


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## Blackstuff (Oct 22, 2015)

Just basic tests on friends and the sober ones experienced the effects far more keenly than the drunk ones (in terms of pain/disorientation). Unsurprisingly the alcohol gave a certain numbness to the pain side of things but magnified the disorientation.

One test I've done is for each person (as in the strober and strobee) to have a post-it note and the object is for each person to try to stick the note on either the other persons jaw or nose first (to simulate an obvious act). The strobee has never won in any of the tests I've done and obviously this test in of itself warns the strobee what's about to happen, deminishing the effect of the light. 

When doing your charging tests did you stay behind the light as you tried to dodge the strobee? I've found one of the best ways to 'win the game' is to hold the light in my left hand and when they start towards me, strobe them while fully extending my arm, post-it note on the side of the jaw every time.


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## Senator (Oct 22, 2015)

I agree with Blackstuff.

Just as importantly, there is very little talk about getting your light into action to begin with. Not all flashlights with strobe mode have "quick access" to that mode, so I think that in a lot of cases the perceived "advantage" that a strobe gives you is negated by the fact that it can take time to get your flashlight into strobe mode. 

Sen


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## Gravitron (Oct 22, 2015)

My very limited personal experience with the application of strobe to disorientate an attacker has; thus far, proven to be woefully ineffective. However, I would like to reiterate that I am by no means an authority on the subject. The sole basis for my opinion is from an incident that occurred last July. I was walking my dog around 10pm(which is typical) when two large aggressive Chows were determined to attack my faithful 15 year 'old' dog and possibly myself. Initially I strobed them with my Nitecore EA4, but that did little to discourage them. Next, I grabbed my Surefire Centurion with a dropin from Vinh and hit them with ~2,500 OTF lumens and it stopped both of them immediately(they even began to retreat). So, now I don't go anywhere without my Surefire, my dropin (and 2,500 lumens).


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## Tac Gunner (Oct 23, 2015)

Blackstuff said:


> When doing your charging tests did you stay behind the light as you tried to dodge the strobee? I've found one of the best ways to 'win the game' is to hold the light in my left hand and when they start towards me, strobe them while fully extending my arm, post-it note on the side of the jaw every time.



I like the post-it note idea, especially since they were developed and are made in my home town :thumbsup:. I kept the light extended out and above my head in my right hand while moving. In my experience they were still able to grab me and at that point I would have had to go to hand to hand wrestling had it been a real attacker. I was not able to move enough while keeping the light centered on the person's face to make it effective.



Senator said:


> Just as importantly, there is very little talk about getting your light into action to begin with. Not all flashlights with strobe mode have "quick access" to that mode, so I think that in a lot of cases the perceived "advantage" that a strobe gives you is negated by the fact that it can take time to get your flashlight into strobe mode.



That is a good point as well. If strobe is not immediate it offers no potential help at all, if you have to double click, cycle through modes, and do a long press the attack has already happened. If it is not the first mode or has a direct access button then the benefits are of no help IMO. 

I carry my Solarforce L2 with 2,000 lumen xhp50 drop in with turbo as the first mode with no mode memory. Every time I turn it on I get 2,000 lumens. I use the light as a preventive tool mainly checking around the car at night, looking over a parking lot before I walk across it, etc. Yes if I were attacked I would draw it to identify the threat but I would not rely on it to stop an attacker, if it distracted/disoriented them and bought me a few extra seconds thats just a bonus IMO. I still feel no matter what mode the light is in, the best job for a defensive/tactical light in a self defense scenario is as a preventive tool and being used to I.D. the threat so proper action can be taken.


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## CL97405 (Oct 25, 2015)

I was out walling my dog one night a couple of weeks ago when another large dog came towards us off his porch with an aggressive posture. I had my TN12 (2016 version) already in hand and on, so just had to press and hold to get full strobe, directly in the dog's face. 

It didn't seem to slow him or bother him at all, even when he was close. A meter or two from us he finally slowed and approached my dog more carefully for what turned out to be the usual sniff and greet, but he didn't seem to be deterred at all nor even inclined to look away. 

I don't think I'd rely on strobe for defensive purposes, at least not this one. The flashlight definitely seems bright enough otherwise though.


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## jmwking (Oct 25, 2015)

The last time I had a run-in with a dog, I kicked him in the chin a few times. He holed my shirt a few times. I figure I came out the better. 

Flashlight did nothing...

-jk


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## Vox Clamatis in Deserto (Oct 26, 2015)

Here's an old strobe sea story of mine from 2009.

Now, this is no s**t. Or, should I say, once upon a time...



Vox Clamatis in Deserto said:


> I've got a few lights, some SF's, some of Henry's great lights and a bunch of Fenix's but the light that's in my pocket when I hit the road is the Nitecore Extreme. It is truly pocketable and has that extra burst of power for when you need it.
> 
> I was walking back from a filling station in Germany at 3 am a few months ago (there were cans of Gaffel Kölsch beer involved, they sell it all night long). A couple of characters approached me from out of the darkness. They told me to stop and I kept walking. They started cursing me in German and I decided to pick up the tempo. When they got too close for comfort, I pulled out my Nitecore Extreme and twisted it to put it on high. I was a little uneasy, fumbled, and put it on strobe mode inadvertantly. It was like a death ray out of a sci-fi movie, they started colliding with each other, swinging and falling down. I made it back to my hotel, they got up and followed me, a lot less agressively. It turns out they were just a couple of roaring drunk college students looking for directions to the train station. I pointed them in the right direction (head for the Dom) and called it a night.
> 
> I never thought much of the strobe function until that demo but it really gave me just enough egress on a dark street to depart for safer territory.


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## Monocrom (Oct 26, 2015)

CL97405 said:


> I was out walling my dog one night a couple of weeks ago when another large dog came towards us off his porch with an aggressive posture. I had my TN12 (2016 version) already in hand and on, so just had to press and hold to get full strobe, directly in the dog's face.
> 
> It didn't seem to slow him or bother him at all, even when he was close. A meter or two from us he finally slowed and approached my dog more carefully for what turned out to be the usual sniff and greet, but he didn't seem to be deterred at all nor even inclined to look away.
> 
> I don't think I'd rely on strobe for defensive purposes, at least not this one. The flashlight definitely seems bright enough otherwise though.




One.... :welcome:

Two.... Get yourself a large cannister of pepperspray and rely on that.

Three.... Using strobe against an aggressive animal is a good way to end up in the E.R. as a (literally) bloody mess.

Four.... The beam from a flashlight is not a bullet, nor a stream of irritant designed to stop a two or four-legged animal. 

*I mean seriously, what's next?? A topic dedicated to whether or not shouting "Boo" is effective at frightening away aggressive dogs or rapists?!?! I mean, come on guys..... strobe is a fricking beam of light. It's great for signalling. It's fun to watch your sexy girlfriend dance while surrounded by it. It stops darkness, and NOTHING else! I don't want to hear about someone hooked up to life support at a hospital because they bought into strobe being a self-defense option! *


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## Launch Mini (Oct 26, 2015)

For those of you that have friend that let you test the strobe, here are 2 more tests you can try on them.

In both cases, let them have night adapted vision.

1 - Stobe them for a second or so. Turn it off, then move and have them run after you know that their night vision is messed up.

2 - Shine that 1,000 lumens directly in their eyes for a few seconds. Turn it off, run & have them chase you.

I would guess that this would give you a few seconds head start before they get their bearings & start after you.

If all I had were a flashlight, option 2 would be the only thing I would try. I'm just looking for that slight advantage from my light.


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## CL97405 (Oct 26, 2015)

Monocrom said:


> One.... :welcome:
> 
> Two.... Get yourself a large cannister of pepperspray and rely on that.
> 
> Three.... Using strobe against an aggressive animal is a good way to end up in the E.R. as a (literally) bloody mess.



Thanks for the welcome. To clarify, I was just answering the OP's question. I don't advocate using a flashlight as anything other than illumination. In that instance, I happened to have a new flashlight in hand and thought I'd give its strobe a try. Normally I just yell and raise my arm. That's deterred a lot of dogs over the years, and so far my own dog hasn't had to bail me out. 

Who knows, the strobe might have been counterproductive. Perhaps without it the other dog would have recognized that my dog had 30 pounds on it sooner.


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## Monocrom (Oct 27, 2015)

CL97405 said:


> Thanks for the welcome. To clarify, I was just answering the OP's question. I don't advocate using a flashlight as anything other than illumination. In that instance, I happened to have a new flashlight in hand and thought I'd give its strobe a try. Normally I just yell and raise my arm. That's deterred a lot of dogs over the years, and so far my own dog hasn't had to bail me out.
> 
> Who knows, the strobe might have been counterproductive. Perhaps without it the other dog would have recognized that my dog had 30 pounds on it sooner.



Sorry if my post caused a misunderstanding. Glad to hear that it's not something you recommend. Sadly, it seems certain others do. I hope my call for common sense isn't snuffed out underneath an army of steel-toed boots.


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## gedrod (Oct 28, 2015)

Wow, what a thread. I find it a persuasive advertisement against the desirability of living in the US, you people are so wound up over guns and violence. 
I live in Australia, I don't own any kind of gun or a vicious dog, or know of anyone that does. 
I don't think I have ever felt the need to plan for my self defense, apart from resolving to simply hand over my wallet in a mugging ASAP, anything else is likely to escalate violence. 
If a dog came at me at night I'd flash the torch in its eyes and then maybe try to hit it with the torch... or maybe kick it... or both.
I have always wondered why a strobe mode was included in flashlights (although the comment about watching your sexy girlfriend dance in the strobe made some sense). 
Do people really practice finding the strobe mode because they are so imminently afraid of being attacked?
G


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## Monocrom (Oct 28, 2015)

gedrod said:


> Wow, what a thread. I find it a persuasive advertisement against the desirability of living in the US, you people are so wound up over guns and violence.
> I live in Australia, I don't own any kind of gun or a vicious dog, or know of anyone that does.
> I don't think I have ever felt the need to plan for my self defense, apart from resolving to simply hand over my wallet in a mugging ASAP, anything else is likely to escalate violence.
> If a dog came at me at night I'd flash the torch in its eyes and then maybe try to hit it with the torch... or maybe kick it... or both.
> ...



You might be genuinely curious, or you might be trying to bait someone into getting upset, posting something in anger, and thus derailing this topic. But I'll give you the benefit of the doubt since you're new to CPF.

I'll be your huckleberry.

One, it's a cultural difference. It really is. You're not the first person from either the U.K. *or* from Australia who has posted something similar. Either here on CPF or on the EDC Forums. And many individuals on both sides of the ocean, simply don't understand that basic fact. To you, Americans seemed obsessed with guns and violence. I'm sure many in Australia believe that nearly all Americans go around armed to the teeth. That we can't wait to "Bust a cap in someone's ***." First person who looks at us funny today is going to be "eating lead!" Or some other such nonsense. Conversely I'm sure many Americans believe that folks in the U.K. and Australia are over-domesticated sheeple who refuse to accept the reality that the world is a dangerous and violent place. Even going so far as to lie to themselves that they live in a peaceful nation thanks to a lack of guns.

Two problems with that. Both the U.K. and Australia have guns. Several years back, the police officers union in Great Britain got very upset that essentially, officers were being shot at by violent criminals, but were unable to defend themselves without first radioing in to a commander in order to have an electronic code sent to lock-boxes in the trunks of their cars. The codes would unlock the boxes, allowing officers to access their revolvers. In truly horrendous situations, a different code would be sent, unlocking H&K sub-machine guns kept in the boxes. 

Thing is, when being fired upon, that is an immediate threat. Officers, quite literally, were taking cover but getting shot before they could send out radio messages to their commanders. The officers union fought very hard. It took a monumental effort. (*Far* more so than it should have taken.) But in the end, officers won the right to carry their revolvers and use their own good judgement as to when to open fire. They basically had to earn their God-given right to defend their lives from those trying to actively murder them. (Culturally speaking, that very idea of having to "earn" it; is disgustingly obscene. That would be the best way to put it.) The officers though had to keep their sub-machine guns locked up though. 

Second, some of it is just simple ignorance. Before 9/11, flying into the largest airport in the U.K., many Americans still believed the myth that officers walk around without handguns. Used to be a certain division of officers guarded the airport. And yes, they didn't do their job while armed with handguns.... They did it armed with H&K sub-machine guns. (And yes, technically they were only carbines. I'm sorry, but when you take an H&K MP5 sub-machine gun, give it a slightly longer barrel, while removing the full-auto option from it, no; you don't get to call it a "carbine." It still has every other feature, gears, and parts of a sub-machine gun.) And to clarify, they were not SAS commandos or even just a military unit. Those men were police officers. Once again, that was back *before* 9/11.

To an American, a discussion of guns, violence, and related sub-categories; isn't a ravenous obsession. For Americans, it's no different than having a passionate discussion regarding vintage muscle cars, for example. Strapping on one's compact Glock pistol or S&W Shield pistol, or tossing a .32 caliber Seecamp into a pants pocket; is just part of every day carry gear. Keys, wallet, comb, gun. No obsession. No drooling over a crazed desire to shoot someone. None of that for most Americans. But that goes back to cultural differences. Sometimes though it's more than that....

I used to know a lovely young lady who didn't think she needed to even carry around a small canister of pepper-spray. Felt no need to get a dog for protection. Certainly not a gun. She genuinely believed that if she avoided any violent thoughts, then she'd be safe from violence. As though she was protected from an unseen aura that kept her safe.... And she honestly believed that right up until she encountered what she thought was a mugger. 

Oh! She gave up her purse right away. Believing that he'd be satisfied and simply leave. That he got what he wanted, and thus satisfied; wouldn't hurt her. That there was no *need* to hurt her. She almost learned the hard way that there are 2-legged predators out there who genuinely don't think the way you or I, or she; thinks. No, there was no *need* to hurt her. Except that he *wanted* to hurt her. He wasn't a mugger. He was something else.... When I said she was a lovely young woman, I meant physically as well. The "mugger" wasn't satisfied. She was still standing, and doing so in one piece. What he wanted was to hurt her. To violate her. To hear her scream. To destroy her pleasant and happy world. To devastate her utterly. Just so that she would never forget him. (Thankfully for her, someone saw what was happening and did the right thing. She got lucky.)

Those types of "muggers" exist. They want far more than just your money. Far, far more.....

Unfortunately they exist in Australia too. Some folks refuse to believe it. In some nations, attacks by those types of muggers are under-reported. (Don't want to scare the public, and all that.) 

You see, it's not about strobe. You hit on the main thing. It's about mentality. You can simply hand over your wallet, you can completely cooperate, YOU yourself can do everything to prevent anything in such a situation that ".....is likely to escalate violence." And if you're dealing with someone who is more than a simple mugger, then it's not going to matter one wit. Not too far back, a young convenience store clerk was seen on surveillance tape handing over all the money in the cash register. Doing so very quickly with a gun pointed right at her face. Robber had a mask on. No way she could I.D. him later to the police. She cooperated completely! And right before he turned around and walked out with all the money she handed over..... He shot her in the face. Had absolutely no reason to. Other than he wanted to. Did it as easily as you or I would casually step on a cockroach. 

Those types of 2-legged predators exist. And, cooperating with one when you encounter him; will NOT save you. Only thing that will is actively resisting. Actively defending yourself. Or, "escalating violence." Those who choose to go armed, understand that. And they accept that such 2-legged predators exist. You see, it's not about being "afraid." It's simply about accepting the world as it is, rather than how it should be. That's the thing. 

Now to throw this switch, and get this topic back on track after de-railing.... er, I mean.... detouring it a bit.


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## Kestrel (Oct 28, 2015)

Please refrain from nationality discussions / etc at it is OT for this thread, thanks.


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## pacattack81 (Dec 6, 2015)

I don't understand why some people are laughing or doubting strobe being used as a self defense option.

I was in a parking lot at night with a Fenix UC30 on strobe mode and I wanted to see if it had any effect on him. In turbo mode, which is 960 lumens, he said the bright light had an effect but he was still able to see me and move forward. He was 5-10 feet from me when I activated strobe mode and he was unable to reach me as I moved away slightly. He didn't even know which direction I moved in. He said it was really disorienting. Fenix deploys what is called a two stage strobe that uses two different frequencies of strobe. Apparently from what I've read, this type of strobe is better then just a normal strobe.

I also tested the D25A in over drive mode with a 14500 battery around 500-700 lumens I think. He was able to get to me without a problem with strobe mode enabled. We attributed the reason for this was either because it lacked a two stage strobe or because it doesn't have as large enougg head so it doesn't have a wide enough beam.

In any event I would feel totally comfortable using my UC30 in strobe mode for defense so I could run away from an approaching attacker. I wonder if the Nitcore P10 uses a two stage strobe.


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## Monocrom (Dec 7, 2015)

Okay, in your case; it worked. You were dealing with a buddy in a one-off case. Not a violent, determined, attacker fueled by rage. Not numerous testing with a variety of individuals to get a set amount of data that can be looked at and reviewed. 

Why do so many experienced individuals doubt the usefulness of strobe?.... Because we've seen what it miserably fails to do in more than a one-off scenario with a buddy.


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## pacattack81 (Dec 7, 2015)

Monocrom said:


> Okay, in your case; it worked. You were dealing with a buddy in a one-off case. Not a violent, determined, attacker fueled by rage. Not numerous testing with a variety of individuals to get a set amount of data that can be looked at and reviewed.
> 
> Why do so many experienced individuals doubt the usefulness of strobe?.... Because we've seen what it miserably fails to do in more than a one-off scenario with a buddy.



Those are all valid points you make, but you're not taking into account maybe the type of light and strobe these "experienced" people were using. Maybe some are more effective than others. Some will swear by the two stage strobe. Plus, maybe the strobe is disorienting to some and not others. At the very least a bright light or strobe to the eyes in close combat could be just enough of an advantage to save a life. In some states, it's not even legal to carry certain types of knives concealed. A flashlight might be the only tool on you. I'd rather have it than have nothing, wouldn't you?


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## magnum70383 (Dec 8, 2015)

I'm wondering... Would you be able to close in on me when I shine my Deft edc-x at 380,000cd into your eyeballs? Or better yet, my REV Victor enthusiast at 1,300,000cd?


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## Monocrom (Dec 8, 2015)

pacattack81 said:


> Those are all valid points you make, but you're not taking into account maybe the type of light and strobe these "experienced" people were using. Maybe some are more effective than others. Some will swear by the two stage strobe. Plus, maybe the strobe is disorienting to some and not others. At the very least a bright light or strobe to the eyes in close combat could be just enough of an advantage to save a life. In some states, it's not even legal to carry certain types of knives concealed. A flashlight might be the only tool on you. I'd rather have it than have nothing, wouldn't you?



Honestly, no. It's worthless. What are you going to do, hope and pray that your individual attacker is one of the ones who might be mildly disorientated for a moment by strobe?? Okay, let's say he is. Then what?.... Here's a simple counter to getting strobed. Head down, bum rush tackle. Strobe doesn't actually physically stop a determined attacker because you're not applying any actual force in stopping him. That's the key thing. Any self-defense instructor who says he can show you a way to effectively stop an aggressive attacker without hurting him. Immediately demand your money back! That instructor is either a con-man or an armchair warrior with zero real world experience. You have to use force. You're going to have to hurt your attacker to some degree in order to prevail. The only exception I've seen to that is a defender pulling out a gun, determined to use it, but the attacker upon seeing that; runs away or gives up. Other than that, you're going to have to hurt your attacker. 

You strobe someone, and you get lucky that they flinch away for a split second. If you don't immediately follow up with some physical violence of your own, you're attacker is going to come after you. Running away? Maybe. If he's more physically fit than you are, or you don't actually have a safe haven to run to; you're still screwed. 

To be completely honest. I live in a place where good-sized Knives are illegal. Not actually illegal, but an idiotic interpretation of the law makes them so. I don't rely on strobe because having various types of strobe tested on myself, I found that they don't work. Here's what I carry.... Mil-tac model 1 pen. Okay, it's been discontinued for years. But any pen with a good tapered end can be used the same way. Namely, as a hammer-fist enhancer. A couple of blunted, non-pierecing stabs will ward off an attacker fan better than putting on a light show for him. Kinda hard to tackle someone and get on top of them when they're physically defending themselves. 

Numerous self-defense oriented keychains on the market. Some are laughable gimmicks. Others are the real thing. I don't know of any jurisdiction that has banned keychains or pens. And yeah, flashlights themselves. You don't even need a large one to swing as a club, nor a short one with a crenallated bezel. Either one from the factory, or something a bit old school like a GG&G T.I.D. Clipped to my pocket right now is a certain single-AA light with a jet turbine shaped bezel. It looks harmless. It's also a better than decent flashlight.... and it's just long enough to use as a hammer-fist enhancer. Surprisingly painful one too. 

So there you go. No Knife, other than a small street-legal folder best reserved for mundane cutting chores. But even without it, metal-bodied pen with a good tapered on one end, self-defense orientated keychain, and a harmless looking little AA light. I'm at work right now, on break; and I'm wearing all three. All better than a light with strobe. All better than nothing at all. And if you're relying on strobe, you're basically relying on nothing at all. 

I love lights. Wouldn't be on CPF if I didn't. They're great for lighting up darkened streets where a potential attacker or mugger might be hiding. And yes, quite a few can be used to physically stop an attacker as well. As for strobe being effective? It was effective for me a couple of months back when my girlfriend and her best friend stopped by for a visit. They had a few, and wanted to dance. I put on some music and then fired up my Olight M20 Warrior on strobe mode. That was one time I honestly DID find strobe to be 100% effective. So credit where it's due.


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## Monocrom (Dec 8, 2015)

magnum70383 said:


> I'm wondering... Would you be able to close in on me when I shine my Deft edc-x at 380,000cd into your eyeballs? Or better yet, my REV Victor enthusiast at 1,300,000cd?




Yes, it's called the Bum's Rush. It even works against pepper-spray because most folks are too dumb to get off the fricking center line. They just spray or shine, and stand there; expecting instant results.


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## pacattack81 (Dec 8, 2015)

A bum rush? That's how your going to attack someone with a bright light in your face? Good, that's exactly what we're hoping for at that point. Hands up slight shift to the left or right and then a nice hit with the bezel of the flashlight to your face. I could also let you grab onto me all while I have my hands up and then drive the bezel of my flashlight to the back of your head or the side of your face. If I get lucky you even just run yourself right into a forward strike to the face from the flashlight.


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## Grizzman (Dec 8, 2015)

magnum70383 said:


> I'm wondering... Would you be able to close in on me when I shine my Deft edc-x at 380,000cd into your eyeballs? Or better yet, my REV Victor enthusiast at 1,300,000cd?



Absolutely. I won't be able to look directly at you, but I don't have to do that to know where you are. Once I'm rapidly closing you're either gonna stand there, or run. Ya can't shine your light in my eyes while you're running away from me.


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## yoyoman (Dec 8, 2015)

I did read a story where someone was able to get an ambulance to their exact location by using strobe.


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## Kestrel (Dec 8, 2015)

pacattack81 said:


> A bum rush? That's how your going to attack someone with a bright light in your face? Good, that's exactly what we're hoping for at that point. Hands up slight shift to the left or right and then a nice hit with the bezel of the flashlight to your face. I could also let you grab onto me all while I have my hands up and then drive the bezel of my flashlight to the back of your head or the side of your face. If I get lucky you even just run yourself right into a forward strike to the face from the flashlight.


Respectfully, posts such as the above don't really have a place in this thread as they are off-topic - this thread is on 'strobe for self-defense', thanks.
Best regards,


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## BillSWPA (Dec 8, 2015)

The problem with this whole thread is the idea of strobe as a weapon rather than a tactic. All anyone is ever going to get from a flashlight is an advantage lasting for fractions of a second. Strobe has been shown time and again to provide larger fractions of a second, but we are still talking fractions of a second. Like any tactic, the goal is to improve your position as compared to whatever it was before. This can be done by getting off the X, creating or closing distance, seeking cover, bringing real weapons into play, employing empty hand skills, and yes, taking actions that we are not supposed to discuss here.

Strobe was originally intended for use in connection with a firearm. Strobe works well for what it was intended to do, but planning to use strobe as a standalone defensive measure is as worthless as carrying a whistle and hoping someone comes to your aid.


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## dc38 (Dec 8, 2015)

pacattack81 said:


> A bum rush? That's how your going to attack someone with a bright light in your face? Good, that's exactly what we're hoping for at that point. Hands up slight shift to the left or right and then a nice hit with the bezel of the flashlight to your face. I could also let you grab onto me all while I have my hands up and then drive the bezel of my flashlight to the back of your head or the side of your face. If I get lucky you even just run yourself right into a forward strike to the face from the flashlight.



Always have a plan to extricate yourself out of a dangerous situation. Strobes work best on drunks. Strobe infuriates hopped up junkies. Strobe is next to useless against a determined attacker. As many have previously stated: strobe is for use in conjunction with a plan that can be quickly deployed and employed, such as a firearm. Or a rock. Or something else almost as fast.


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## texas cop (Dec 8, 2015)

I've used strobe or just a quick burst of light. Things to remember if you blast the light while he's looking at you, you've just robbed him of his night vision for a few minutes. If he's drunk or already impaired then hold your arm out to the side while he's looking at you then blast the light. Drunks see that spot to their side now and a few will slowly turn to that side for the next minute thinking you are that spot as they talk to you. I had one that did three full circles until he got focused again and talked to me and not the spot anymore. If a chase begins and they still see a burned dot in their vision many will not walk or run straight. During daylight time most of this is useless, some might even think its a weapon. "Why does he have that in his hand it's not dark?" In a self defense mode bright light, blind, then leave fast for a safer spot. As a defense weapon no, as a tool yes. Pepper spray is much better and about the same size. Tactics should be no dark areas, stay near crowds, don't be alone, be aware of what is around you. And by around you not just that few feet but out as far as you can. If it doesn't feel right move and do a "Crazy Ivan" every once in a while. Check your local laws on the level that citizens or subjects may have for weapons; pepper spray, Kubatons, knife, etc.


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## Kestrel (Dec 8, 2015)

When I quote a post with the intent of illustrating something that is off-topic for the current discussion, my hope is for that aspect to be avoided, not requoted for additional elaboration. I think that this topic has been sufficiently explored by now and I'm not inclined to spend an inordinate amount of time monitoring this thread for additional things of this nature, so I think we can call it good for the time being. Best regards,


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