# I am done with P60 modules



## etc (Dec 28, 2015)

Surefire P60 is obsolete for me. I like the surefire G2x bezel more, it throws further and is just as compact despite being deeper. 
For example surefire g2x pro throws further than malkoff m61.
I also like the head of malkoff Hound dog for serious business but maybe not every day carry.


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## Slumber (Dec 29, 2015)

etc said:


> Surefire P60 is obsolete for me. I like the surefire G2x bezel more, it throws further and is just as compact despite being deeper.
> For example surefire g2x pro throws further than malkoff m61.
> I also like the head of malkoff Hound dog for serious business but maybe not every day carry.



I'm with you dude. It's saves a good bit of weight as well, making the light feel balanced.


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## thaugen (Dec 29, 2015)

I own 2 Surefire G2x lights that sit in my cars for an emergency use. They are nice lights with two levels that throw farther than my Malkoff dropins, but I am still interested in the P60 format. Nothing beats the Malkoff M61 (n, w, Nichia) dropins for beam quality, flexibility and overall satisfaction for this flashlight enthusiast. I hope the P60 format stays around for a long time.


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## scout24 (Dec 29, 2015)

There are so many different P60 modules though... I have a Nailbender or five, all are quite lightweight and run circles (as far as output) around a G2X. Different tools for different jobs. Yes, M61's and their kin are heavy, but they heatsink like nobody's business. Lots of different P60 choices out there, you can write your own ticket as far as UI, tint, flood, throw, etc. And the platform is relatively future proof as newer emitters come out...


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## Woods Walker (Dec 29, 2015)

It's not all about throw unless that's your requirement. Speaking of throw the Mountain electronics drop-in actually throws good but does so because of massive output. Looks very very near the claimed 1000 lumens. I also have an older R5 single mode XP-G1 that really throws great but is also very bright and has a smooth deeper (within the confines of the host) reflector. But again high lumen ratings are also not the most important aspect unless that's important to a particular user. Personally I like the M61L or LLs.


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## Kestrel (Dec 29, 2015)

Interesting points about throw. If we look back to the classic SF lights, I see three lines: e-series heads for edc, Z44/P60 for general use (& police duty), and lastly the extensive line of Turboheads - which ruled the roost for throw at the time. Although some here have put together P60-format lights with a reasonable amount of throw, the original format was always supposed to be a compromise. What is interesting (and perhaps logical in these times of LED's) is that SF has moved away from their once-ubiquitous TH's and as a result, don't seem to have as many new throwers these days.


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## etc (Dec 29, 2015)

I think my point is, P60 has its limits. And if you want to go far outside of M61 boundaries, it's limited in throw. All of P60 modules, even most powerful ones, just don't throw all that well, because of platform limitations. You have to go to the next step. Surefire Fury bezel of G2x is an improvement over P60, just too bad it's not removable. 

Malkoff M61 family is great, but it's a short range module with optimum use up to 30 meters IMO. After that, it runs out of steam. Yes it will light up things at 100m but very faintly, without much effect. A head like Hound Dog puts you in the medium thrower ranger IMO and run out of steam at a longer distance like 75m or maybe even 100m, but at the expense of EDC abilities. Surefire G2x bezel gives you a little more punch but marginally so. Perhaps M61 mates really well with P60 because both are short-range devices and work well together.

I think P60 is really good for indoor use and short range usage. But it's not a high performance situation. Even the highest-powered p60 modules don't really throw all that far, they feel like you are holding a household bulb in your hand. Once I got the hound Dog, I realized how much more performance you can get out of the platform. It's just so much substantially higher in lux. I can only wonder what a 2,000 or 3,000 lumen light will look like out of the Hound Dog.


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## Capolini (Dec 29, 2015)

If your looking for GREAT throw check out OMG Lumens[Michael] or SKYLUMENS[Vinh]..........I know they are modified but once you have one ALL stock seem obsolete!


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## Woods Walker (Dec 29, 2015)

etc said:


> I think P60 is really good for indoor use and short range usage. But it's not a high performance situation. Even the highest-powered p60 modules don't really throw all that far, they feel like you are holding a household bulb in your hand. Once I got the hound Dog, I realized how much more performance you can get out of the platform. It's just so much substantially higher in lux. I can only wonder what a 2,000 or 3,000 lumen light will look like out of the Hound Dog.



I use them outdoors all the time. Why? Because more often I want a floodier light outside than one with more throw especially when crossing streams etc.





But this is going to be a case of no wrong answers as personal preference is a personal matter.


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## ShineOnYouCrazyDiamond (Dec 29, 2015)

I can understand your issues with the P60 format. The reflector size does have it's limitations and throw is usually regulated by the type of LED you put in there more so than any other piece of the puzzle. If you can accept this limitation and are okay with it then the format will work for you.

If you are the person who want to have multiple type of light but not buy more than one host the P60 format will still work for you as well. You can have a triple drop-in for floody work. A XP-L HI drop-in for a decent amount of throw and flood. Etc.

I don't use the P60 format myself much any longer as I prefer specialized lights for a task. But, when I first joined CPF and for a few years I would say that I was able to learn a lot about the type of LEDs, tint and beams I liked for much less than buying many lights. 

My biggest problem with the P60 format now is the single click UI. I prefer a lights with multiple selection button where I can switch levels without turning the light off and losing light or having to flash myself through high just to get to a low setting. Rotation/infinite UIs also rate highly with me.


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## scs (Dec 29, 2015)

Doesn't Vinh offer P60s that put out more than 40k CD?
A XPL HI in a proper P60 smooth reflector does over 20k CD, which a few years ago, was considered throwy.
Unless you've become jaded, of course.


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## mbw_151 (Dec 29, 2015)

I bought a 6PX Pro and tried it for a while. It has a decent high and a usable low that cover most needs. What it doesn't have is a medium output, something that puts out a good amount of light for 3-4 hours. I don't need this mode often, but when I do, I really need it. So until Surefire addresses their insistence on hi-low only in affordable lights, I'll continue to use my Malkoff M361s in 6P and C2 hosts. I've burned that 65 lumens for multiple hours a few times and I see no reason to give it up.


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## Timothybil (Dec 29, 2015)

I have three P60 lights: an original G2, an original 6P, and a Seraph 6. For emitters I have the XP-G that came with the Seraph 6, Lumens Factory's 90+ CRI three mode drop in, and Mountain Electronic's CUXM/CUXP Nichia 219B with an OP reflector. I see all three of them as all-round utility lights - low for close up work, medium for most uses like walking, etc., and high to flood an area when I need it. Where I live I can count 14 all night HPS lights, so there is no way it can be considered really dark. Given that, I can take any one of those lights and see noticeable light at 30-40 yd without any problem. If I need to see further than that I have my EA41 and TM16. When I think there is a possibility of needing more light than the EA11 and Microstream I EDC, one of those three go with me. 

I was lucky. I managed to pick up all three mentioned lights with the drop ins for less than $150 within the last year or so. That is about what I paid for my TM16 this year. With those four lights, the Tube on my keychain, and the BLF 348 Nichia penlight I just scored I figure I'm ready for just about anything that comes along.


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## cland72 (Dec 29, 2015)

You can send me all your P60 hosts.


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## etc (Dec 29, 2015)

I went walking yesterday and took malkoff Hound dog, surefire g2x pro and surefire 9P with malkoff m61LL running on 2aa. It was kind of a test. The hd had the most reach, as expected. G2x was nice, all purpose device but not even close to Hound dog. I would say it has 20% more lux or throw than m61.

I saw some deer at about 75m, hd lit them up nicely, g2x was weaker, much, and I am sure m61 would be even worse. 

M61ll was nice just looking under your feet. 

Any p60 malkoff is nice navigating around the woods but if you need something beyond 50m, even beyond 35m, you need the hound dog or a very powerful and thirsty p60 module.


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## kssmith (Dec 29, 2015)

cland72 said:


> You can send me all your P60 hosts.



LOL!
+1


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## TMedina (Dec 29, 2015)

cland72 said:


> You can send me all your P60 hosts.



Great minds think alike.

EtA: That is the express purpose of the M61 configuration - to provide close to medium lighting. I kind of wish he'd kept the rights to the M60 design for a nice thrower compromise.


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## cland72 (Dec 29, 2015)

etc, on a serious (and sincere) note, you need all flavors of lights in your toolbox. Throwers, flooders, and all around bulletproof lights. The M61 (and it's tint/runtime/output variations) is an essential part of any serious flashlight collection. Don't be so quick to cast it out.


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## etc (Dec 29, 2015)

yeah I agree. I have M61, M61L, M60L, M61LLx2, M61LLL, etc.


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## ShineOnYouCrazyDiamond (Dec 29, 2015)

etc - I am curious why you would go with a single drop in for each level rather than seeking out a drop-in that gives you multiples? I know each one is a solid device at a single level, but there is the 361.


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## Woods Walker (Dec 29, 2015)

ShineOnYouCrazyDiamond said:


> etc - I am curious why you would go with a single drop in for each level rather than seeking out a drop-in that gives you multiples? I know each one is a solid device at a single level, but there is the 361.



I think the reliability and dependability of the single mode M60/61 is probably a factor. Some people only honestly trust the most trustworthy.


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## cland72 (Dec 29, 2015)

Woods Walker said:


> I think the reliability and dependability of the single mode M60/61 is probably a factor. Some people only honestly trust the most trustworthy.



That's why I chose the M61. I only have one multiple output P60 in one flashlight - a EDC plus X60L 3-mode Cool White T6 Cree XM-L2 P60. It hasn't given me any reason to distrust it, but if I needed a no BS, bulletproof light, I'd reach for one of my other hosts with a M61 variant.


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## bykfixer (Dec 29, 2015)

Woods Walker said:


> I think the reliability and dependability of the single mode M60/61 is probably a factor. Some people only honestly trust the most trustworthy.



Yup!!!
It's why several of mine have the uber reliable twisty switch. 

Sometimes an adjustable wrench will do. Sometimes the Mac Tool socket set is required.
Even at that, sometimes the ratchet will do. And sometimes only the reliabilty of a breaker bar will do.


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## Timothybil (Dec 29, 2015)

bykfixer said:


> Sometimes an adjustable wrench will do. Sometimes the Mac Tool socket set is required.
> Even at that, sometimes the ratchet will do. And sometimes only the reliabilty of a breaker bar will do.


Do you know the definition of expert? They are the ones who know when to use excessive force! :thumbsup:


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## ShineOnYouCrazyDiamond (Dec 29, 2015)

bykfixer said:


> Even at that, sometimes the ratchet will do. And sometimes only the reliabilty of a breaker bar will do.



You guys actually had me at the Malkoff site considering buying a Malkoff breaker bar.


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## scout24 (Dec 29, 2015)

SOYCD- No high/low ring... Single output only.


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## bykfixer (Dec 29, 2015)

Timothybil said:


> Do you know the definition of expert? They are the ones who know when to use excessive force! :thumbsup:




Summer of 014 about 3 hours from having a motor out of a car, expert folks driving 6 hours to help in a couple of days to help modify the one going in, I decided to use excessive force with a ratchet on an exhaust manifold bolt. 
BANG tinkle tinkle...what was that? 
The bang was an S-K ratchet exploding...the tinkle was parts of it hitting the floor. 
No problem except...not only was the ratchet destroyed, so was my wrist. Ironically a 25" breaker bar was near, but I was relying on old faithful to hold up (again).
Luckily it was bolt #3 of 3 and the remaining parts were much easier to unfasten. 

So if there's a need to punch a bear with a flashlight in my fist, (like using a breaker bar) I know the Malkoff'd 6P will still work while I'm hopefully setting a world record trying to get away.

Maybe a breaker bar in the bug out bag is in order.


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## ShineOnYouCrazyDiamond (Dec 29, 2015)

scout24 said:


> SOYCD- No high/low ring... Single output only.



Dang it! Was that predictable or what....... LOL!


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## scout24 (Dec 29, 2015)

Bykfixr- May I suggest the Stanley Fubar "55-119" ?  The yellow color is easy enough to buzz off with a wire wheel...


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## bykfixer (Dec 29, 2015)

^^ I'll throw it over my shoulder and use it to carry my bug out bag...

Hobo look circa 2016 baby.


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## Poppy (Dec 29, 2015)

etc said:


> Surefire P60 is obsolete for me. I like the surefire G2x bezel more, it throws further and is just as compact despite being deeper.
> For example surefire g2x pro throws further than malkoff m61.
> I also like the head of malkoff Hound dog for serious business but maybe not every day carry.


I'm a bit confused by your post.
The P60 is obsolete for you... ok, I get that.
Isn't the P60 essentially a bulb and reflector of specific dimensions, or LED driver and reflector of specific dimensions, such that they will fit into a P60 host?

Isn't throw determined by the size of the LED, the refraction of the reflector, and the number of lumens emitted, and focused into the beam? I really don't think that the benzel contributes to the throw of a light, at all.

I have two Solarforce P60 hosts, one has been missing for a year, but I have faith that it'll show up someday. So.... I have ONE Solarforce L2N in Gray. An XM-L2 driven at 2.8 amps. I like it A LOT. It is just a little big to EDC without a holster, IMO. But a great camping light. It throws 150- feet quite nicely, with a relatively broad beam of light. Personally I like the beam profile. It's not too tight, so that it CAN be used indoors, but it is tight enough that it can do 30-60 yards with a broad beam.

If not for the reasonably priced Convoy line, I have three S2+ and one C8 XM-L2, I would probably have more P60s. I like the S2 lights for general purpose, and the C8 for more of a thrower without being too big and or heavy, and the P60s beam falls right in the middle between the two. It's size is also right between the two.


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## bykfixer (Dec 29, 2015)

I just ordered a 280 lumen P60 sized module designed to easily throw 100 yards, called an M31for a 2aa Rayovac indestructable. 
Obsolete is cool!!!


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## seery (Dec 29, 2015)

etc said:


> A head like Hound Dog puts you in the medium thrower ranger IMO and run out of steam at a longer distance like 75m or maybe even 100m...



Your Hound Dog XM-L2 runs out of steam at 75 to 100 meters?

Owned a bunch of Hound Dogs and consider them short throwers, but the XM-L2 would easily hold steam at 150-200m.


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## etc (Dec 29, 2015)

okay, P60 is not obsolete. I was being facetious. Of course it's not. Its pretty useful for about 90% of the tasks you are faced with. 



> I really don't think that the benzel contributes to the throw of a light, at all.



The deeper the reflector, the more focused the beam, the farther it throws, the higher the lux. 

So a 200 lumen light tightly focused will out-lux a 300-lumen light that's a wider degree beam. 

Consider the MiniMag for example, tiny diameter bezel but very deep and throws a tiny pencil-sized beam far away. I am not saying it's more useful than say Malkoff M61 with a much broader beam. For most tasks, you want a Malkoff profile type beam, or maybe the Surefire P3x or G3x pro type beam, which is essentially the same thing. 

The problem with the P60 configuration is you have to throw tons of Amps at it to get to above 1,000 lumens and have a chance of being even a medium-distanced thrower. Most P60 type modules are short-distance throwers, with short distance defined as 35m and under. You light up the area in that vicinity but beyond that, the lux is so weak as to be ineffective. Saying Malkoff M61 is good for 150m or the Hound Dog is effective for 300m is like saying 22 LR can shoot for 1 mile. Of course it can but it's far beyond it's effective, optimum range.


* Your Hound Dog XM-L2 runs out of steam at 75 to 100 meters? *

The range where it really lites up something is 100m but beyond that, the lux is weaker than within 100m. this is Captain Obvious territory. If I wanted to go much beyond 100, I think I would pick something a little throwier, but that something would be completely inappropriate within 5 meters, shooting powerful laser like beam that wants to burn a hole through paper.

Malkoff Hound Dog is a jack of all trades, one size fits all type device.


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## seery (Dec 29, 2015)

etc said:


> Malkoff Hound Dog is a jack of all trades, one size fits all type device.



Agreed. 

The Wildcat and HD used to be our go-to lights around the farm, but the TK35 (XHP50) replaced them both.


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## etc (Dec 29, 2015)

the amazing thing about Malkoff Hound Dog is that while it reaches out there to 100-120m with confidence, it's still a very useful lite up close - 5-10m territory. yeah, the more I use it, the more amazed I am how useful overall it is. I am sold on its head, whatever is its official designation. It has got that heft that inspires confidence. The heat sink and the potting. Well done. 

If I find a holster for the longest Hound Dog body, I will carry it on my belt, maybe as EDC sometimes.

I will leave my P60 modules alone. They are good at what they are -- which is EDC territory. They fit anywhere and the 2x123 body disappears in any pocket. It still has a reasonable punch, maybe not in the Hound Dog category but Malkoff M61 is nothing to sneeze at. Neither is Surefire Fury.

I have plenty of lites in the several hundred lumen category and one with 1,000 lumens but if I wanted something far above that, I think I would pick something other than P60 bottleneck. I mean several thousand lumens are fun if you can throw them further than 100m, IMO. I would probably pick the Hound Dog configuration more than anything for the 2,000 lumen device or more.


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## ElectronGuru (Dec 29, 2015)

etc said:


> The deeper the reflector, the more focused the beam, the farther it throws, the higher the lux.


+1

I think of it as a ratio of LED size to collimator (optic/reflector) size. Say you have an ideal combination of LED and reflector then you make the reflector smaller. Throw will go down. So too if you make the LED larger without making the reflector larger. You can also make the reflector deeper and also remove reflector texture. But notice 2 of the 3 are size/format dependent. Pop a large LED in a P60 and it will not throw as well as the very same LED in a big Mag reflector.

A P60 can only be so long and so wide so any reflector inside it is limited by these dimensions. This is the 'focusing limit' of the P60 format. Certain heads, like the Elzetta and M2 MT get around this by making a larger bezel, giving room for the optic or reflector to 'escape' the limits of the Z44 bezel.

There is also a thermal limit, where the heat from the LED goes into the sink, then must travel across the metal/metal joint to the socket, then across the metal/metal joint to the bezel. Heat can't move between pieces of metal as well as across a single piece of metal. So as performance goes up (larger LEDs pushed by increasing power), the P60 format hits these limits and doesn't produce as well as a 'from scratch' head.

That said, the built in popularity alone makes the P60 format ideal for just about every other use.


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## RedLED (Dec 29, 2015)

Well, I use my P61 LLLL, so,I not to worried.


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## NoNotAgain (Dec 30, 2015)

Much to do about nothing.

The P61 drop-in format is a great all purpose lighting module. As an incan version, it eats batteries, but that's what happens when you dead short across a filament. 

I've got lights that are super flooders close up for working on the car or truck. I've also got super throwers. Then finally I've got lights I can leave on for hours at a time that output 3000 lumens, and were designed to do so. And then I have the Surefire 6P.

What interested me years back about the P60/61 was the broad range of drop-in's available for just about any lighting task. It's not perfect, but when you take a lighting system that was designed as an incandescent light and are able to install drop-in's from single mode to 5 or more lighting modes and keep 80% of the light original, there is no other package that I'm aware of that has the same ability. And yes, I've got a few of the Mag light drop-in's, but none of those come close to functioning as the MAG light did or does in incan format.

The Surefire 6P is the small block Chevy of the lighting world.


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## bykfixer (Dec 30, 2015)

To me flashlights are like tools. 

I started out with a small box of craftsman that are useful for 80% of my uses.

9 drawer chest later there's tools to do the other 20%.

The 6P is like my original set of tools. It can fulfill 80% of my lighting needs.
The other 75+ lights are for the other 20%


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## Poppy (Dec 30, 2015)

[The M61] is the Malkoff Devices P60 style dropin with solid brass heatsink construction. The output is approximately 325 measured out the front lumens. <snip> It will easily illuminate objects at 350+ feet and will blind opponents within a 100 foot radius. The LED is a Cool White (6200K) Cree XP-G2. 

This design utilizes a custom *orange peel reflector* designed by Don McLeish. The reflector offers a very nice balance between throw and spill. It is an outstanding room lighter and* short to medium spotter. 
*
******************************************************
The above was taken from the malkoff site. By design it is a short to medium spotter. The XP-G2 emitter can be driven at 1500ma to output 515 lumens, and if placed in a smooth reflector, it would give a tighter beam, and more throw. 

An XM-L2 driven at 3 amps would give 1050 lumens, I don't know what the cd would be in a smooth reflector, but it might give comparable throw to the XP-G2, or it might be less, but in either case it will have 2-3 times as many lumens spread out in a broader hotspot than the XP-G2. The down-side will be a shorter run-time of about an hour with a single 18650.

If the head and reflector is too small in a P60 to give the throw that you are looking for, there are certainly dedicated throwers available.


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## etc (Dec 30, 2015)

Right. To get a P60 module to be a medium distance spotter, you have to drive it very hard. I don't want to drive anything at 3 Amps. Too hard on the cells, lower runtime, more heat. For me, I can live with between 1.0 - 1.5 Amps. 
It is a performance bottleneck. If you are happy with 300 lumens, and I am most of the time, then that is fine. It's pretty good up to about 30 meters and after that, drops off significantly. You can play all kinds of tricks with it. You can run a p60 module off 2x18650 cells to get more lumens and thus more lux. Or you can get the M61 SHO (super high output) or that "HOT" module available with MD* bodies. Both are walls of light that really light up a room or a building. And are pretty good for navigating around in dense woods.
You don't want a thrower in many circumstances.


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## flashy bazook (Dec 31, 2015)

I find this discussion interesting and useful, but also a bit confusing!

If the issue is (as in the original OP post by etc) that the G2x outperforms the P60 drop-ins to the point of making the P60 drop-ins obsolete, then I disagree. You can find P60 drop-ins on par with the G2x in terms of throw.

If the issue is (as seems to have evolved over subsequent posts) that you cannot get "adequate" throw in the P60 form, then of course that is true if you are willing to carry much wider diameter and bigger depth reflectored lights. But this is obvious.

So in the end, what is the issue? That the specific M61 Malkoff P60 drop-in does not provide "adequate" throw? Well, there are other P60 drop-ins that provide higher throw. As was pointed out by poppy, the M61 is designed for general use, not for maximizing throw. And it uses an orange-peel reflector.

If you go to, for example, a nailbender smooth reflector XPG-2 drop-in, you get much higher throw than the M61.

And then there are optics. I've consistently praised the M60 and M30 drop-ins by Malkoff for their higher throw, despite using what are by today's standards older LEDs (yet the XR-E is still useful for throw because of its narrow angle).

Malkoff also now includes in his product range a TIR (total internal reflection) optic, like the one used by Surefire, though in the even smaller than P60 format (the "E" Surefire lights). That is another way to go to get maximum throw from what are small form-factors.

Yet a third way is the M2 head type lights, which are marginally bigger than the P60 format. Oveready has such a head out which maximizes throw.

So...where does all this leaves us? I think that, yes, you can go beyond the P60 form-factor to get more throw, but there is quite a lot you can do to get plenty of throw in-or-near the P60 form factor, without going to huge current levels. If such throw levels are "adequate" or not, I guess in the end will of course come down to personal preference.

For a reasonable compromise I think you can find Vihn products that are not much bigger than the P60 yet provide outstanding throw if you really do need such throw.


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## stephenk (Dec 31, 2015)

Done with P60 modules?
I've only just started!


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## Lou Minescence (Dec 31, 2015)

I would buy another P60 module if it did not have visible PWM on lower modes. I have been unable to find any.


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## Str8stroke (Dec 31, 2015)

For those done with P60's, kindly send them to me! Y'all are goofy. 

This format is basically future proof. Is it perfect? No, it has limitations, but I have dozens I made myself for specific tasks. I am positive Overready, Tana, Malkoff, Lumens Factory and many others would likely agree with me.


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## DellSuperman (Dec 31, 2015)

Str8stroke said:


> For those done with P60's, kindly send them to me! Y'all are goofy.
> 
> This format is basically future proof. Is it perfect? No, it has limitations, but I have dozens I made myself for specific tasks. I am positive Overready, Tana, Malkoff, Lumens Factory and many others would likely agree with me.


Well said.. I cannot agree more. 
Have a new emitter? Just pop out the old one & put the new one in.


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## jdboy (Dec 31, 2015)

Lou Minescence said:


> I would buy another P60 module if it did not have visible PWM on lower modes. I have been unable to find any.



Neither of my XM-L2, nor my Nichia, drop-ins from MtnElectronics show any sign of PWM. All three are 4 mode single cell setups.


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## ShineOnYouCrazyDiamond (Dec 31, 2015)

jdboy said:


> Neither of my XM-L2, nor my Nichia, drop-ins from MtnElectronics show any sign of PWM. All three are 4 mode single cell setups.



I agree with this. You need to make sure the driver you use has a high enough PWM rate. The ones sold by MTN Electronics use rates PWM well above 5000Hz making flicker nearly invisible. 

Some of the pre-made ones - even high quality ones from name brands - use horribly low PWM which becomes very visible at the lower levels.


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## Poppy (Dec 31, 2015)

I don't know why I am still sometimes surprised at the depth of knowledge, held by members of this community.
:thumbsup:



flashy bazook said:


> I find this discussion interesting and useful, but also a bit confusing!
> 
> If the issue is (as in the original OP post by etc) that the G2x outperforms the P60 drop-ins to the point of making the P60 drop-ins obsolete, then I disagree. You can find P60 drop-ins on par with the G2x in terms of throw.
> 
> ...


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## Timothybil (Dec 31, 2015)

Lou Minescence said:


> I would buy another P60 module if it did not have visible PWM on lower modes. I have been unable to find any.


Using all the standard tests, I have been unable to detect any PWM in my Lumens Factory modules at all.


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## Str8stroke (Dec 31, 2015)

Timothybil said:


> Using all the standard tests, I have been unable to detect any PWM in my Lumens Factory modules at all.



None of my LF HO-6 Extreme Output Xenons have any detectable PWM! 
And they are super warm tints! 3300Kevins. Nothing beats three thousand three hundred warm kevins!


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## Kestrel (Dec 31, 2015)

Str8stroke said:


> [...] Nothing beats three thousand three hundred warm kevins!


I'll see your 3300K and raise you 1300K. 


Malkoff M31W (first-generation): 5000K
Malkoff M31W (first-generation): 5000K
Malkoff M61N: 4000K
Malkoff M61NL: 4000K
Malkoff M91N: 5000K
Average: 4600K, lol.


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## ShineOnYouCrazyDiamond (Dec 31, 2015)

Yes, my LF zenon drop-ins work perfectly too. 

Although I've tried a few of their LED options and the PWM is absolutely terrible to my eyes. We all have different sensitivity thresholds to PWM and mine is at about the 2000Hz level. Anything less and it becomes pretty obnoxious to me!


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## bykfixer (Dec 31, 2015)

Wow!!!!

You guys can see 1500 pwm? 

Wow!


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## RWT1405 (Dec 31, 2015)

Yeah, I agree bykfixer, I find myself laughing at some people with their pwm tales of woe! I realize everyone has different likes and dislikes, but people that do things to induce pwm, and then complain about it, just make my day. SMH


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## Grizzman (Dec 31, 2015)

I agree with Kestrel. Str8 can buy all the 3300K CCT drop-ins that he wants. My current fav is a 5000K M61W. A person is lucky if a light manufacturer offers a neutral option, while I can get exactly what I want by taking the P60 drop-in path.

I've got a PFlexPro P60 with smooth reflector in front of an XP-L driven at 3 amps to generate about 900 lumens. It flat out embarrasses an M61 SHO and even delivers more lux than an Elzetta Charlie with AVS head (at an across the spare bedroom distance).


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## ElectronGuru (Dec 31, 2015)

Lou Minescence said:


> I would buy another P60 module if it did not have visible PWM on lower modes. I have been unable to find any.



There is a new constant current one, zero PWM at all levels:

http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?413129


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## m4a1usr (Dec 31, 2015)

I'm surprised no one has mentioned P60 aspherics? You can get a decent projector out of one depending on the die size chosen (XPG/XPL works best) and the driver. I've built several using the 3 amp 105c and they can definitely reach out quite well. Not going to be a deft-x or a Vinh but it will do the job as a distance thrower. And for just blasting the snot out of the surrounding area there is little that can compare to a VOB XHP70 from Matt. They do put out the heat but that's to be expected in a low mass build like a P60.

But I guess a D26 aspheric really doesn't truly qualify as a standard P60 drop in?


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## Tana (Dec 31, 2015)

I have been a huge P60 fan before my modding phase...

P60 is a great format and since we have so many old school Surefires (but also clones) in circulation, it will be in circulation for years to come... plus in some cases it's easier to just aim for newer modules with newer LEDs/electronics than mod the complete light, Surefire or Chinese brands... I still enjoy few P60 hosts that I kept in collection... every time I get a new LED I make a P60 module with same driver (single mode) so I can compare tints - I have zillion of these P60 modules in plastic cases - for tint snob like me it's a great way to always be able to compare tints but also overall outputs and lux in direct comparison as, like I said, they are all 1.4Amp single mode...

That said, I find 6PX (Z2X particularly but G2X as well), GREAT for modding... heatsink is part of whole shell, 20mm copper DTP boards can be used (overdriven LEDs with no fear for not having enough heatsinking), plastic lens is replaceable with glass in combo with Xeno bezel rings... it's not amateur easy to mod though as it requires a brass additional heatsink to accommodate 17mm driver... but once all done properly (alu bodies bored to 18mm) it's a great and tough mid-size EDC with the best - black HA...


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## Lou Minescence (Dec 31, 2015)

jdboy said:


> Neither of my XM-L2, nor my Nichia, drop-ins from MtnElectronics show any sign of PWM. All three are 4 mode single cell setups.





Timothybil said:


> Using all the standard tests, I have been unable to detect any PWM in my Lumens Factory modules at all.





ElectronGuru said:


> There is a new constant current one, zero PWM at all levels:
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?413129




Thanks for the tips.


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## scs (Dec 31, 2015)

bykfixer said:


> Wow!!!!
> 
> You guys can see 1500 pwm?
> 
> Wow!



Got a dropin with Qlite driver that claims CC with 4k+ Hz pwm.
PWM while in low mode is detectable under running shower.
I can see very small discrete drops of water in the streams. But only very up close and looking intently at the streams.
For some, they may not consciously detect PWM, but it affects them visually nonetheless.


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## Tana (Jan 1, 2016)

All MTNElectronics custom firmware drivers (Richard's or Doc's Guppy2's) run at 18-19kHz PWM frequency so definitely invisible and silent even on low levels...

What one could experience with programmable custom firmwares (with ramping, like LuciDrvFT) is that lowest modes in ramping give some flicker (Doc optimized it to 1.5Amp, then driver is afterwards boosted to 3Amp so more components add more resistance to the circuit that might not be perfect for super low, moon mode thus flicker on 1st and 2nd ramp level)...

But that's fixed with new fully custom drivers FET/linear hybrids with dedicated moon mode regulator capable of invisible and silent PWM on ALL levels - from moon to FET turbo...


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## Woods Walker (Jan 1, 2016)

Tana said:


> All MTNElectronics custom firmware drivers (Richard's or Doc's Guppy2's) run at 18-19kHz PWM frequency so definitely invisible and silent even on low levels...
> 
> What one could experience with programmable custom firmwares (with ramping, like LuciDrvFT) is that lowest modes in ramping give some flicker (Doc optimized it to 1.5Amp, then driver is afterwards boosted to 3Amp so more components add more resistance to the circuit that might not be perfect for super low, moon mode thus flicker on 1st and 2nd ramp level)...
> 
> But that's fixed with new fully custom drivers FET/linear hybrids with dedicated moon mode regulator capable of invisible and silent PWM on ALL levels - from moon to FET turbo...



I can see a bit of pulse with my Mountain Electronics drop-in acquired maybe a week or so ago. But I don't think it's actually visible PWM but a pulse. It's not really noticeable unless looking directly at the emitter or white wall. All other modes any flicker/pulse/whatever is undetectable.


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## ShineOnYouCrazyDiamond (Jan 1, 2016)

bykfixer said:


> Wow!!!!
> 
> You guys can see 1500 pwm?
> 
> Wow!





RWT1405 said:


> Yeah, I agree bykfixer, I find myself laughing at some people with their pwm tales of woe! I realize everyone has different likes and dislikes, but people that do things to induce pwm, and then complain about it, just make my day. SMH



You guys are entitled to your opinions, but they are not shared by all. And quite honestly to be "laughed at" by you is rather insulting.

I am not saying that I can see 1500 Hz flicker when I look at the LED. No one can. What I am saying is that in completely normal use a PWM at that rate will show a what appears like a flicker or glimmer when you do things like take a turn going down stairs and swing the light quickly, when you blink while moving the light, when you're in a bathroom with a mirror reflecting. I find the effect very irritating. 

Lucky you if you're not sensitive to this.


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## ShineOnYouCrazyDiamond (Jan 1, 2016)

What Tana says is true as well. I had a similar conversation with Richard about the low level flicker problems even with Dr.Jones lucidrv firmware on the 105C boards on P60 drop-ins. 

The way it was explained to me is that the the PWM rate is so high that it is right near the switching threshold of the ACM1735 chip. With the 105C you have 8 AMC1735 chips and the switching threshold of each chip with cary a tiny bit within a certain tolerance range. When you have PWM bumping right up on the switching threshold and a possible variance across 8 chips there could be some flicker induced in the low levels when the PWM on time a very short. 

I've installed the FET/single AMC1735 board into a LE for one person as an upgrade and I was massively impressed how solid a driver it is.


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## bykfixer (Jan 1, 2016)

^^ So is it like strobe effect or something to folks who see it? Not trying to flame or anything...I just don't notice it myself. 
Maybe it's because I come from an era where you had to smack the light onto your hand from time to time to get it to re-light. I do notice when a light flickers and find it annoying when I cannot fix it. But pwm is largely un-noticed to my eyes. 

I''ve got like 1 flashlight that pwm is so slow I see it in the rain...so I don't use it on low when it rains. 

Seems to me folks choose pwm in an attempt to keep the tint the same or similar at all levels. Otherwise wall hunters and pixel counters would disect the awful amount of tint change occuring due to step down'd current flow.


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## Grijon (Jan 1, 2016)

ShineOnYouCrazyDiamond said:


> You guys are entitled to your opinions, but they are not shared by all. And quite honestly to be "laughed at" by you is rather insulting.
> 
> I am not saying that I can see 1500 Hz flicker when I look at the LED. No one can. What I am saying is that in completely normal use a PWM at that rate will show a what appears like a flicker or glimmer when you do things like take a turn going down stairs and swing the light quickly, when you blink while moving the light, when you're in a bathroom with a mirror reflecting. I find the effect very irritating.
> 
> Lucky you if you're not sensitive to this.



Good post, SOYCD. I'm in the same boat.



bykfixer said:


> ^^ So is it like strobe effect or something to folks who see it? Not trying to flame or anything...I just don't notice it myself.



That is correct, bykfixer; it is very much like a strobe effect to those who can see it. At best it is simply annoying, but it can also be disorienting and literally sickening. I am one of those who seems able to see (and is affected by) nearly any form of PWM.


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## ShineOnYouCrazyDiamond (Jan 1, 2016)

@bykfixer

Yes - it is like a very fast strobe. But it's so fast that it's more like a weird flicker. 

IMO PWM is a compromise between a well designed CC driver and tint control. I do notice that PWM drivers - in P60s and other lights - does keep the tint more stable as the led dims. But that is not really a concern for me as far as preference goes. I'd take current controlled any day. I haven't found any drivers for P60 drop-ins that use CC that also feature programmable option as well.


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## RWT1405 (Jan 1, 2016)

I am really sorry that you took my post so personally. 

I am sure that I said I understand that some people have different likes and dislikes. 

I do understated that for some people PWM could be, and is, a problem, I was talking about those that intentionally try and produce PWM. 

If you need to "try" to produce it, that means you couldn't notice it before, and needed to create a condition to see it, which is what makes me laugh. 

I'm very sorry if that insults you and that you can't see the humor in that.

BTW, Happy New Year to all, even those of you affected by PWM! ;-)


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## ShineOnYouCrazyDiamond (Jan 1, 2016)

Appreciate the comment - thank you. 

Believe me - it's not that I am looking for. In fact I wish it didn't bother me as it has ruled out so many lights that I really love. 

Anyways - back on topic. 

One of the things I think the P60 format IS perfect for is the triples that are available. Being able to pop in an Oveready triple and get ~3500 LED lumens of flood is quite impressive. It's not very practical outside but if you are using a drop-in like this indoors it lights up a huge area. I've run one in the dark lower levels of my works parking garage and only off one cell ~1900 lumens it was able to light up everything up to 100 yards away.


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## etc (Jan 1, 2016)

Yeah, as I pointed out, getting 2000-3000 lumens is not practical out of P60, since: 

The cells get very hot due to the high Amps it drains
the module gets very hot
the runtime suffers


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## Tana (Jan 1, 2016)

Very interesting thread...  Discussing hosts as well as drivers...

I for one enjoy my fully modded Z2X (rocking PWM controlled fully programmable driver)... LOVE the tint on all modes... :twothumbs


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## scout24 (Jan 1, 2016)

It may not be practical, but it is doable. Vinh and Oveready spring to mind. I think an important point here is these numbers for any sustained time in any P60 sized host light at all are not practical, and this fact should not be a condemnation of the P60 specifically. Same with the throw numbers- With a smooth reflector or an optic, a P60 can hang in there with most if not all lights of similar bezel diameter. I have and love my Hound Dog 18650, but it's apples and oranges when it comes to carrying it... The P60 is alive and well, and will be for some time to come. I certainly respect your choice to be done with them for your uses, but respecting your choice is not going to change mine.  :grouphug: Heck, if we all agreed on everything, we probably wouldn't have CPF!!!



etc said:


> Yeah, as I pointed out, getting 2000-3000 lumens is not practical out of P60, since:
> 
> The cells get very hot due to the high Amps it drains
> the module gets very hot
> the runtime suffers


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## rookieshiner (Jan 1, 2016)

Back in 1999 or so I bought a Surefire P60 for about $50.ish due to fact it was advertised as a "Weapons Light" but after a few rounds less then 6 the bulb blew and a replacement cost me like $12.69 then tried shooting again and same happened, few months later seems these were breaking on everybodys guns.

Read in several gun mags that they need a Shock Proof bezel which were about $30. but when I tried to find one everyplace was out including Surefire then 2 yrs. later called Surefire again and they were now $180. (NUTS!!!!)

Recently saw http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B009CQAZI0/?tag=cpf0b6-20 which was only $4.65 instead of $8.99 and it works great and has a better beam then my old bulb and it has increased the original 65 lumens to (I guess about 250) but no way to 500 lumens as advertised and I hope it lasts longer?

Sadly my 18650 Nitecore batteries wont fit in the Surefire, but Surefire says not to use rechargeable batteries??????????

However I guess if I find a narrower 18650 batt it will be fine since I have a new type bulb assembly?


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## Woods Walker (Jan 1, 2016)

rookieshiner said:


> Back in 1999 or so I bought a Surefire P60 for about $50.ish due to fact it was advertised as a "Weapons Light" but after a few rounds less then 6 the bulb blew and a replacement cost me like $12.69 then tried shooting again and same happened, few months later seems these were breaking on everybodys guns.
> 
> Read in several gun mags that they need a Shock Proof bezel which were about $30. but when I tried to find one everyplace was out including Surefire then 2 yrs. later called Surefire again and they were now $180. (NUTS!!!!)
> 
> ...



Keeppower 16650 fits the 6p/G2/G2Z/C2.


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## rookieshiner (Jan 1, 2016)

Thank You! Is it safe to use since Surefire says not to use rechargeable batt? But since I have now new bulb/assembly it should be safe?


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## scout24 (Jan 1, 2016)

Woods Walker's recommendation above will work fine with the module in your link, and will fit nicely in your 6P.


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## Grizzman (Jan 1, 2016)

The 6P's component that incompatible with the voltage provided by two RCR123s is the incandescent lamp. Said lamp has been removed. 

The replacement LED assembly is spec'd to accept up to 18 volts. What it doesn't specify is a low voltage limit. It should run from a single 16650 or 17670 battery, but it's possible that it'll shut off before the cell's been drained to the protection circuit's voltage cutoff level.


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## bykfixer (Jan 1, 2016)

^^ enter the M*31*...


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## FPSRelic (Jan 2, 2016)

etc said:


> Surefire P60 is obsolete for me. I like the surefire G2x bezel more, it throws further and is just as compact despite being deeper.
> For example surefire g2x pro throws further than malkoff m61.



Of course it does. If you look at the reflector in an M61, it is smaller than the diameter of the z44. I suspect this is to blend the line between the light's spot and it's spill, as well as increasing the brightness of it's spill, thus making it more of a flashaholic's wet dream regarding the "perfect beam".

If you want throw, check out the M60. You can still get them from Elzetta industries for $69. Alternatively you could find any drop in that uses an XR-E or XP-E2 emitter.

Or you could just stick with the 6PX and be happy


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## bykfixer (Jan 2, 2016)

My PK FL2 absolutely *destroys* the G2 lights. It aint even a fair fight. lol

And no PWM


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## jorn (Jan 2, 2016)

The problem is the "lumen war". Big lumen numbers sell, and the lux numbers is often not even mentioned.
Who wants to buy a 300 ish lumen drop in when most nowdays is around 1000? The leds is growing in size (and lumen), the p60 reflector stays the same. The rule is: smaller the led is, the better it will throw as long as the rest stays the same.

I got a homemade p60 somewhere with a dedomed xp-g2 driven at 3A. Outthrows my hounddog with ease. Tested it with a dedomed xp-e2 (still at 3A) for even more throw, but found out the beam got too narrow for my taste. So the biggest problem is pepole want the one with most lumen, and dont want to "downgrade" to a "dim" 300 ish lumen p60. It's not like all p60 lack the throw, but you cant get throw and high lumens at the same time in this format. You got to choose what way you want to go. Max lux with a tiny hard driven led, or max lumen with a big led, you cant have both with a 26mm reflector.. The malkoff m61 series got a even smaller reflector than the standard 26mm, so it's not designed to be throwy at all.



RWT1405 said:


> I do understated that for some people PWM could be, and is, a problem, I was talking about those that intentionally try and produce PWM.
> 
> If you need to "try" to produce it, that means you couldn't notice it before, and needed to create a condition to see it, which is what makes me laugh.


Problem is, no one can see pwm when sitting in a chair shining a new light at the walls in the livingroom. So you have to provoke it. The pwm is there, you cant produce it, but you can make it visible. 

So when do we pwm haters see the pwm? When we are on the move and use the lights near reflective surfaces. So the key to actually see the pwm flicker from normal use is: motion + reflective stuff around you. Walking fast in a soking wet woodlandscape can be hell with pwm, because all those leaves becomes reflective. The slower you move, the harder it is to notice. So i guess fast walkers hate pwm more than those slow wandering types  Same if im wading hip deep on fishingtrips. The water is super clear around here, never needed to filter or boil before i drink it. So the water is very reflective. All the waves makes the motion needed, so you can stand still and still see the pwm flicker where ever the wave makes the light bounce back at you.. Can i seee pwm by shining it in my livingroom? no. Can i tell when im outddors and on the move, heck yeah. And since i DONT want to be bothered with pwm problems miles up a mountaintrail to a good fishingspot, i have to provoke it so i can see the pwm when im at home, in my livingroom.


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## bykfixer (Jan 2, 2016)

The definition of throwey has changed as well. 

Used to be that P60 was a big league thrower. These days it wouldn't even be considered a tosser with all the emitters throwing light further than Tiger Woods drives a golf ball....


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## ShineOnYouCrazyDiamond (Jan 2, 2016)

I think the XP-L HI would be a good contender in a P60 for throw these days. Great support for a 3Amp driver. Plenty of 18650s that can hold voltage under that load for an hour. At that point heat starts to become your enemy and that is my biggest issue with home built P60s. The cheap $5 brass body/reflector combos you can buy just don't have the mass to thermally maintain a strong heat transfer. 

Some people like Mattaus have made their own P60 reflector based drop-ins out of solid copper but they take even smaller reflectors so you are throw limited. 

I think at the end of the day I would liken the P60 to the Prometheus Alpha line. It's a great light for about 90% of your every day uses. If you really need more throw than a P60 can provide you should probably look at a more use specific light.


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## RWT1405 (Jan 2, 2016)

Fair enough jorn, but the conditions you state, such as pwm while walking, hiking, running, wasn't what I was meaning by "trying to produce pwm". 

What you stated, at least to me, are all totally legitimate reasons to not be satisfied by a flashlight with pwm. 

What I meant by "trying to produce pwm" is those that do things like shine it into a fan, and other "interesting" things some here do to make pwm visible.


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## Timothybil (Jan 2, 2016)

RWT1405 said:


> What I meant by "trying to produce pwm" is those that do things like shine it into a fan, and other "interesting" things some here do to make pwm visible.


Actually, shining into a fan is a very good way to verify PWM. For all intents and purposes, PWM is a strobe. As such in a dimly lit room it will 'freeze' action. If the blades appear to stay stationary it is probably safe to say that there is no PWM at that mode or that the PWM is an exact multiple of the rpm of the blades. If the blades appear to rotate slowly in either direction, there is PWM.

Have you ever watched an old Western where the stagecoach or wagon wheels appear to be rotating backwards? It is the same effect. The camera can be considered to have PWM at 30 cycles (frames) per second. As the speed of the wheel changes, one can see the spokes of the wheel appear to slowly rotate in either direction as a result of the PWM/frame rate.


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## RWT1405 (Jan 3, 2016)

Yeah, I've seen a lot of them, none of my lights do that to/for me.

Whatever, if you see it and it bothers you, so be it, I don't have a problem with, nor see it in the lights I have, some of which I hear people here complain about.

You can all continue to try and convince me how much of a problem it is, and how much I should agree with you, but in the 37 years I've been using my flashlights as a Paramedic, Flight Medic, Tactical Medic, and FireFighter, working full time night shifts, I don't see it.

Sorry, I use my lights to work with, not to play with.


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## Woods Walker (Jan 3, 2016)

RWT1405 said:


> Yeah, I've seen a lot of them, none of my lights do that to/for me.
> 
> Whatever, if you see it and it bothers you, so be it, I don't have a problem with, nor see it in the lights I have, some of which I hear people here complain about.
> 
> ...



Nope. All play here.....


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## RWT1405 (Jan 3, 2016)

I do some hiking also, Woods Walker, and hunting, still isn't the same as I using them for work. 

I do enjoy your posts though Woods Walker, and agree with most of what you have to say

But I'm sorry, I find most of the pwm stories of woe, let's just say "interesting".


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## Woods Walker (Jan 3, 2016)

RWT1405 said:


> I do some hiking also, Woods Walker, and hunting, still isn't the same as I using them for work.
> 
> I do enjoy your posts though Woods Walker, and agree with most of what you have to say
> 
> But I'm sorry, I find most of the pwm stories of woe, let's just say "interesting".



LOL! Nothing to be sorry about. It's all good IMHO.


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## VNguyen (Jan 3, 2016)

I get the Chinese drop ins only since all my 6ps are for work. $4-$6 a piece. I drop and break them inside the ships (sometimes 6 decks) so often and to tell u the truth, most the times the head would bend and glass would break before the drop ins. I also use cheap Chinese head assembly. I will eventually get malkoff in 1 of the 6p for walking our dog instead of carrying those big thrunites. But my 6ps are my go to lights 80% of the time.


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## 1pt21 (Jan 3, 2016)

While I do love my G2x, it pisses me off that the head is glued on and there's really no possibility for cheap upgrades (and I want to be able to take my stuff apart without boiling/strap wrenches and possible damage just because). Not a big fan of the tint, but in real life usage it has little effect on me.

Is the module in the G2x or other similar models really that much different from a P60??


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## bykfixer (Jan 3, 2016)

Maybe all those crazy drunken Saturday nights in taverns and dance clubs has allowed me to become accustomed to strobe effect and therefore PWM is un noticed...and disoriented? Again refer to those crazy drunken nights under lights of a disco ball. Eh, just kidding....

But seriously RWT will probably understand what I mean here...
I work construction at night at times and there are a lot of flashing strobes, at varying frequencies along with very loud engines and such with sound reflecting off of buildings, bridges or other vehicles. You talk about disorienting...
You see a truck to your right in a strobe, but hear said truck to your left due to echo...everybody is moving about at a panic'd pace in order to rescue a victim (in RWT's case), or get the job done in mine...
In those circumstances life is one giant varying Pulse of Modulation in terms of sight and sound. You'd be surprised all thing considered how dis-orienting loud echo of a diesal engine reflect off nearby object can be...and throw in all those half million candle power flashing lights..blue, red, white, orange...a little ole PWM from a flashlight is nothin'...



^^ just a regular day in the life...




^^ until this drunken idiot crashes our flashlight party




^^ arrows point to guys who were almost killed

I'm standing there with my co worker who was new to night shift paving and all those flashing lights...so he chose to keep his disoriented self well away from the ruckus...good on him imo.

Suddenly a car comes barreling into the work zone. 
It's loud, I'm hollering but fellows with their backs turned do not hear. Co worker yells and one guy hears...at the last possible moment he cloths-lines his comrad while dragging him away in skee-daddle mode...WHAM!!! Car never touched the brakes. 
Driver was taken away in cuffs. 

That was the night I became a flashaholic. A policeman with a Strion (thanks to Streamlight trying to 1 up the P60)...such a small flashlight...such a bright beam...best flashlight I'd ever owned to that point was my Coast HP7R or an LED D Mag. 
Soon after I joined CPF. And soon after that my P60 sized emitter collection began. 

Now I'm permanently addicted to the emitter that changed the world of baby cop sized flashlights. (Don Adams Maxwell Smart voice) "and loving it."

Oh, and I have the same or similar Strion as that young police officer. One night I realized I'd never bought a copy of the light that changed my world... and so it was. 



^^ that's a Bushnell pocket clip





I now have a Malkoff'd Rayovac and a Rayovac'd 6P.
Obsolete? Ok.....


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## xdayv (Jan 3, 2016)

is it okay to stick with incan? My G2 is. :thinking:


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## scout24 (Jan 3, 2016)

Incan is more than ok! It's where P60's started after all... If we could gently veer back on track and away from PWM discussion, it would be a good thing. I realize it's a very polarizing subject. Maybe a seperate thread? Or maybe for the moment it's run it's course. Thanks, all...


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## ShineOnYouCrazyDiamond (Jan 3, 2016)

I agree it's run its course. Thanks for stepping in.

I think an incan P60 is a great thing. I have one setup which is a P91 driven by 2 x 18350 cell. It's not a long run time but man is it a great looking beam. Also have a FM D26 G2 bi-pin which is another great option for the P60 format. A decent amount of bulb options too. A Strion bulb driven by a single 18650 is a great light.


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## Grijon (Jan 3, 2016)

One of my most-used lights (nearly nightly) is a completely stock G2 Nitrolon with its incan P60 - powered by a Keeppower 16650. It's not as bright as a pair of primaries, but it still looks great and they're 'free' lumens!


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## Grijon (Jan 3, 2016)

ShineOnYouCrazyDiamond said:


> Also have a FM D26 G2 bi-pin which is another great option for the P60 format...



Hmm, forum searching to ensue.


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## bykfixer (Jan 3, 2016)

Love the Strion series. 


Also love the incan TL2 shockproof. For about $15 the module is still available...not real easy to find...but still out there. 

I suppose because Streamlight dare'd to be different than SureFire in the baby cop light their products have largely been ignored by cloners and would be duplicators.

I also suppose this thread echos the sentiments of enough to cause SureFire to decide to nix the 6P again. Like when Ford decided to nix the Thunderbird and GM decided to nix Oldsmobile...we'll be ok and life will go on. 

Yet it's like the day the last Peanuts comic strip ran...(some may remember the last Saturday Evening Post)...it just aint the same after that.


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## jdboy (Jan 3, 2016)

For me I can't get enough of the P60 format. I actually just received 2 Oveready bodies and their P60 interface. I really like the body length interchangeability offered with this setup. Many may think the P60 will fall by the wayside but for me it's still very much appreciated.


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## texas cop (Jan 3, 2016)

P60 all the way for me. I build a lot of lights around my part of the world for mostly for first responders, some lawyers and carpet cleaners. About 350 to date all P60's and only 2 needing fixing so far. I've put together infrared to enhance night surveillance. Ultraviolet for currency checking, crime scene and for some carpet cleaners to show you where the dog pee's. XP-G's up to triple XM-L's, single modes to 5 modes. The ability to Lego the system is what keeps it going. I dare say there are better lights out there, just not more versatile. And did I mention water proof, all the ones I put together get two days at the bottom of the pool (7') for waterproofing checks. The one big improvement I would put on the system is have the dropin's screw in for better thermal transfer.


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## bykfixer (Jan 3, 2016)

^^ this guy...

ROOLZ!!!!


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## RWT1405 (Jan 3, 2016)

I know exactly what you mean bykfixer! 

Thanks for explaining it better then I did!


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## bykfixer (Jan 3, 2016)

RWT1405 said:


> I know exactly what you mean bykfixer!
> 
> Thanks for explaining it better then I did!



Which part?

The drunk at the dance hall...
or the live pwm in 3D _annnnd _ surround sound 7.1?

Looked at 3C indestrucatbles today without my calipers but I'm thinking Malkoff....
Or...dig this..
Genuine P60 in a 3C flashlight with rubberized ends...4.5 volts...extended runtime...stay tuned.


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## xdayv (Jan 3, 2016)

Grijon said:


> One of my most-used lights (nearly nightly) is a completely stock G2 Nitrolon with its incan P60 - powered by a Keeppower 16650. It's not as bright as a pair of primaries, but it still looks great and they're 'free' lumens!



I'm planning to use 16650 and see if I can live with the lower output... I just prefer the warmth of the incan.


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## scout24 (Jan 3, 2016)

I know I'm preaching to the choir, but Lumensfactory makes several "Free Lumen" P60 modules designed to work on 1xRCR...


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## Grijon (Jan 3, 2016)

xdayv said:


> I'm planning to use 16650 and see if I can live with the lower output... I just prefer the warmth of the incan.




I'd really like to hear what you think of it!


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## Grijon (Jan 3, 2016)

scout24 said:


> I know I'm preaching to the choir, but Lumensfactory makes several "Free Lumen" P60 modules designed to work on 1xRCR...



That's very interesting; the 4-series?


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## ElectronGuru (Jan 3, 2016)

jdboy said:


> For me I can't get enough of the P60 format. I actually just received 2 Oveready bodies and their P60 interface. I really like the body length interchangeability offered with this setup. Many may think the P60 will fall by the wayside but for me it's still very much appreciated.


When I joined CPF, there were just a few options. If you went with manufacturers, you were stuck with manufacturer options - bad tints, last years bin, boring drivers, and any color as long as its black. There were a few from scratch light builders but if you wanted anything else, P60 was *the* option. Threads asking for this or that role would quickly fill with *which* P60 was the way to go, not *if* the P60 was the way to go. It was the everything platform because it did everything and because there was nothing else.

Today, there are many more P60-less options. Manufacturers have improved their standards and even those lights can be improved directly. Easier off the shelf parts means more guys can make things from scratch (to sell) and more guys can make things for themselves. Meanwhile, performance has reached such a level that the P60 format itself is struggling to keep up (see previous post).

The bad news is that P60 is now not everything to everyone. But the good news is that P60 can now be what perhaps it was always meant to be. An ecosystem of parts that beginners and experienced dudes alike can put together in 1000 different ways. Not because its the only way to hit this or that level of wow, but because no one would dare to make this or that feature as a single complete light. You can go as wild as you want on the host and as mild as you want with the engine. Or the other way around, to your hearts content.

P60 doesn't have to be the best any more. Now it can be your best.


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## etc (Jan 3, 2016)

This is my P60 Malkoff collection. I am done with the P60 in the sense of I feel I have gathered enough of it. Not like I am going to dispose of it. I think I have been misunderstood. 

The next light I will get will probably be either Surefire Fury, the 3-cell version, with its slightly (very) deeper, better throwing bezel, or some permutation of the Hound Dog, if there is ever a version 4.0, or maybe a really low version of Malkoff, you know the quadriple-L one. In actuality, I need neither one.


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## xdayv (Jan 3, 2016)

Grijon said:


> I'd really like to hear what you think of it!



Relatively dimmer, around 70% of the original output, but it's guilt-free lumens... so I'm okay with it especially for daily tasks. I got a P1R and/or E2D as my other EDC.


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## Grijon (Jan 4, 2016)

xdayv said:


> Relatively dimmer, around 70% of the original output, but it's guilt-free lumens... so I'm okay with it especially for daily tasks.



Ah ha ha - that's about exactly how I feel about it!



xdayv said:


> I got a P1R and/or E2D as my other EDC.



Very nice!


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## scout24 (Jan 4, 2016)

Yes, the HO-4 and EO4.  



Grijon said:


> That's very interesting; the 4-series?


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