# need fast charger for 18650 li-ion ?



## picard (Jul 24, 2009)

I am looking for a fast charger for li-ion 18650.

What kind of generic charger that can charge within 3hrs?


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## DimeRazorback (Jul 24, 2009)

What about the Ultrafire WF-139?

That takes about three hours, and obviously less if you are just topping up the cells.


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## picard (Jul 24, 2009)

DimeRazorback said:


> What about the Ultrafire WF-139?
> 
> That takes about three hours, and obviously less if you are just topping up the cells.



where is this charger on sale? can you post a link ?


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## DimeRazorback (Jul 24, 2009)

Sure can

Lighthound

Or

Battery Junction

Another choice is the Pila IBC, I have no experience with it however.


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## Black Rose (Jul 24, 2009)

AW sells it in the marketplace, 4Sevens sells it on their site, DX sells it.


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## Norm (Jul 24, 2009)

*UltraFire WF-139 18650/CR123A/14500 Charger*
DealExtreme: $12.30 UltraFire 3.6/3.7V Battery Charger 
Norm


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## picard (Jul 24, 2009)

is this ultrafire charger a fast charger? it looks like a slow charger to me.


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## DimeRazorback (Jul 24, 2009)

As far as I know it is a fast charger, and it is advertised as one.

The longest I have waited for a cell to charge is 2 hours from about 60% depleted


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## picard (Jul 24, 2009)

DimeRazorback said:


> As far as I know it is a fast charger, and it is advertised as one.
> 
> The longest I have waited for a cell to charge is 2 hours from about 60% depleted



are you sure this is a reliable charger?


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## DimeRazorback (Jul 24, 2009)

If you use it correctly yes.
I and many people have had no issues.
Everytime I pull cells from it they are sitting at 4.2v

If you don't trust it, you can try the Pila IBC, it gets good feedback aswell.


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## Burgess (Jul 25, 2009)

picard said:


> are you sure this is a reliable charger?


 

If you want *reliable*, i suggest the Pila IBC charger.




_


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## glockboy (Jul 25, 2009)

Yoho-122.
Read about it.
https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/136277




picard said:


> I am looking for a fast charger for li-ion 18650.
> 
> What kind of generic charger that can charge within 3hrs?


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## DM51 (Jul 25, 2009)

The WF-139 charges at 450 mA. 
The Pila IBC charges at 600 mA.
A fast charger for a 18650 Li-Ion would charge at 1,500-2,200 mA.


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## Black Rose (Jul 25, 2009)

glockboy said:


> Yoho-122.
> Read about it.
> https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/136277


 I have 2 of those and forgot to mention them.

They are advertised as charging at 1000 mA, but actually charge at a rate somewhere between 800 and 1000 mA. 
I'll have a better idea when I do a test on my next charge.


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## flasohollic (Jul 25, 2009)

not the cleanest setup in the world, but work. The fine thing about the charger is it have a program called lipo fast charge..

http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.15225


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## Justin Case (Jul 25, 2009)

There is no such thing as a good, fast charger for LiCoO2 Li-ions (perhaps if you have some of the newer high discharge rate Li-ions that can discharge at 10C or 20C, then you can also fast charge them). Sure, you can find sources that claim to have a so-called fast Li-ion charger. But it won't do a good job charging the Li-Co cells to capacity. The CC/CV charging method is such that even if you jack up the charge current during the CC phase, all that means is that you hit the 4.20V level early and the CV phase will last that much longer.

You would be well-served to find a CC/CV charger for your 18650s that charges at less than 1C (preferably 0.7C or less) and terminates at 4.20V max, with no trickle charge. If the charger also has a charge timer, so much the better.


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## seaside (Jul 25, 2009)

picard said:


> I am looking for a fast charger for li-ion 18650.
> What kind of generic charger that can charge within 3hrs?


 
An example of "fast" and "generic" charger that charges 18650 close to 3 hours... could be $7.92 DX "Digital Li-Ion 18650 Battery Charger". As cheap and generic as it can be, and quite fast too. There's nothing really digital about it, but can't complain it at that price and it quite works well for me.

It usually takes 3 to 3 1/2 hours to charge my trustfire 2400mAh 18650. With my WF-139, that's about 5 1/2 to 6 hours.


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## flasohollic (Jul 25, 2009)

Justin Case said:


> There is no such thing as a good, fast charger for LiCoO2 Li-ions (perhaps if you have some of the newer high discharge rate Li-ions that can discharge at 10C or 20C, then you can also fast charge them). Sure, you can find sources that claim to have a so-called fast Li-ion charger. But it won't do a good job charging the Li-Co cells to capacity. The CC/CV charging method is such that even if you jack up the charge current during the CC phase, all that means is that you hit the 4.20V level early and the CV phase will last that much longer.
> 
> You would be well-served to find a CC/CV charger for your 18650s that charges at less than 1C (preferably 0.7C or less) and terminates at 4.20V max, with no trickle charge. If the charger also has a charge timer, so much the better.




When chosing fast charge the only difference is instead of waitin 1 hour with 0,2-0,1 amp it just stop. so the nattery will be 90% full.


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## Justin Case (Jul 25, 2009)

If I understand you correctly, you are saying a "fast charger" simply dispenses with the CV portion of the charge cycle.

I'm not sure I would call that a fast charger. I'd call it an early termination charger. Basically, instead of terminating the CV part at say C/20, you are stopping at 0.8C or whatever the charging rate is during the CC phase. I also don't think you'll get 90% capacity that way.


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## flasohollic (Jul 25, 2009)

Justin Case said:


> If I understand you correctly, you are saying a "fast charger" simply dispenses with the CV portion of the charge cycle.
> 
> I'm not sure I would call that a fast charger. I'd call it an early termination charger. Basically, instead of terminating the CV part at say C/20, you are stopping at 0.8C or whatever the charging rate is during the CC phase. I also don't think you'll get 90% capacity that way.



Im not sure its 90% ,, but it called a fast charge, even those elictric car that uses lithium have this kind of charging 1-4h fast charge 60-80%(im not sure about how many % and h) instead of 6h 100%

But whatever, you may have right its not a fast charge what do i know.. im just saying what the manual say .


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## wapkil (Jul 25, 2009)

Justin Case said:


> If I understand you correctly, you are saying a "fast charger" simply dispenses with the CV portion of the charge cycle.
> 
> I'm not sure I would call that a fast charger. I'd call it an early termination charger. Basically, instead of terminating the CV part at say C/20, you are stopping at 0.8C or whatever the charging rate is during the CC phase. I also don't think you'll get 90% capacity that way.



As far as I know the charge efficiency for Li-Ions is almost 100% so after an hour of 0.8C charge you should have the battery charged to ~80%. I haven't tested it but in the charge profiles that I saw after the CC phase with 1C charge the cells were charged to 85%-90% (obviously in less than an hour).


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## HarryN (Jul 25, 2009)

I know it is painful, but I am happy that I avoided using R cells until I could buy a decent universal charger. We were starting to accumulate a bunch of chargers around the house for drills, hedge trimmers, r/c, etc.

IMHO, you should look at the Triton II and the Hyperion line for a charger than can charge just about anything you might need to charge. Of course a Schultze is better, but that was a big step up price wise.

Go around the house and make a list of EVERYTHING that needs a charger, and see if you can replace 95% of them with 1 charger. No, I don't charge my cell phone from the Triton II, but just about everything else.


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## richardcpf (Jul 25, 2009)

I bought this "OEM" charger and it does a pretty decent chaging.

My WF139 charges a 2400mah trustfire in 4-5 hours, while this oem charger does it in less than 3 hours. 

http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.13820

My multimeter is broken so I can't test the voltage and current, but the batteries gives a nice runtime after charge.


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## Justin Case (Jul 25, 2009)

wapkil said:


> As far as I know the charge efficiency for Li-Ions is almost 100% so after an hour of 0.8C charge you should have the battery charged to ~80%. I haven't tested it but in the charge profiles that I saw after the CC phase with 1C charge the cells were charged to 85%-90% (obviously in less than an hour).



Yes, charge efficiency is near 100%, but the CC phase won't run for an hour before the float voltage hits 4.20V if you are charging to 85%-90% (i.e., 0.85C-0.90C). If you do get 85%-90% in an hour or less, it's because your charger is using a float voltage higher than 4.20V, which IMO is undersirable.

Basically, if you increase the charge rate during the CC phase, the cells reach the float voltage sooner and spend more time in CV. Thus the overall charge time stays about the same as if you had used a lower charge rate (which spends more time in the CC phase and less in CV).

Here is a CC-CV charge curve for a Panasonic 18650 from the datasheet. Charge rate is 0.67C. Float voltage is hit after about 70 min, for which the cell is at about 78% capacity.






Now here is a charge curve for a Sanyo 18650 charged at 1C. Notice that the float voltage is reached in about 45 min and at about 75% capacity. Overall charge time is essentially the same (not quite an apples-apples comparison since the previous cell was a Panasonic, with its own specific chemistry).


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## Chodes (Jul 25, 2009)

HarryN said:


> I know it is painful, but I am happy that I avoided using R cells until I could buy a decent universal charger. We were starting to accumulate a bunch of chargers around the house for drills, hedge trimmers, r/c, etc.
> 
> IMHO, you should look at the Triton II and the Hyperion line for a charger than can charge just about anything you might need to charge. Of course a Schultze is better, but that was a big step up price wise.
> 
> Go around the house and make a list of EVERYTHING that needs a charger, and see if you can replace 95% of them with 1 charger. No, I don't charge my cell phone from the Triton II, but just about everything else.



Agree 100%
Good chargers are one of those things you never regret buying.


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## wapkil (Jul 26, 2009)

Justin Case said:


> Yes, charge efficiency is near 100%, but the CC phase won't run for an hour before the float voltage hits 4.20V if you are charging to 85%-90% (i.e., 0.85C-0.90C). If you do get 85%-90% in less than an hour, it's because your charger is using a float voltage higher than 4.20V, which IMO is undersirable.
> 
> Basically, if you increase the charge rate during the CC phase, the cells reach the float voltage sooner and spend more time in CV. Thus the overall charge time stays about the same as if you had used a lower charge rate (which spends more time in the CC phase and less in CV).



As I wrote I haven't tested it but the 80%-90% charge figure after the CC phase is universally quoted - it is present on many sites, in hobby chargers manuals, charge ICs specifications, etc. You can download almost any document and it will be there.

Some chargers have a "fast charge" mode in which instead of performing CC phase they steadily lower the current - they claim to achieve almost full charge in a shorter time this way.

EDIT: After sending my post I noticed that you added the graphs to yours - they seem to confirm what I wrote here, although at the lower level of around 80% charge, so I think it is correct.


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## Justin Case (Jul 26, 2009)

There is a big difference between *less than 80%*, which is shown in the graphs I posted, and 90% which is the top figure you quoted.

Also note that the Sanyo 1C charge rate gives you about 75% capacity at the end of CC. Not 100%, if CC went for the full hour. And not 80%-90% either.

The point I was trying to make in what I wrote earlier is that if you charge at a high rate like 1C, you will go for less than an hour in CC. If you go with a lower charge rate, then you can go longer in CC. But you end up with about the same or slightly lower capacity for the high charge rate case when you enter CV. Thus, the overall charge time is about the same. If you are running at high charge rates (e.g., 0.9C) and actually get 90% capacity after CC (meaning CC lasted for an hour), then IMO you are probably using a float voltage higher than 4.20V, which again IMO is undesirable.


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## wapkil (Jul 26, 2009)

Justin Case said:


> There is a big difference between *less than 80%*, which is shown in the graphs I posted, and 90% which is the top figure you quoted.
> 
> Also note that the Sanyo 1C charge rate gives you about 75% capacity at the end of CC. Not 100%, if CC went for the full hour. And not 80%-90% either.
> 
> The point I was trying to make in what I wrote earlier is that if you charge at a high rate like 1C, you will go for less than an hour in CC. If you go with a lower charge rate, then you can go longer in CC. But you end up with about the same or slightly lower capacity for the high charge rate case when you enter CV. Thus, the overall charge time is about the same. If you are running at high charge rates (e.g., 0.9C) and actually get 90% capacity after CC (meaning CC lasted for an hour), then IMO you are probably using a float voltage higher than 4.20V, which again IMO is undesirable.



I generally agree with you. I don't know where the 90% level came from. Maybe it is 90% compared to the 4.10V charge which is still standard in many places (4.20V being a compromise between the cells charge level and their longevity) but I'm just guessing.

I thought that on the graph for a Sanyo cells, a 2400mAh cell in the room temperature is charged to 1900mAh (i.e. 79%) but as you wrote it may be also 1800mAh - these graphs are definitely not detailed enough to debate single percentage points. Either way, one can charge a cell for around an hour and get around 80% charge level. And that's as high as one can get with a fast CC charge. Lowering the current and making the charge time longer, some chargers claim to be able to get a higher charge level but I don't know the details.


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## Justin Case (Jul 26, 2009)

The Sanyo charge rate is 1C and CC lasts for 45 min -- 75% capacity. Actually, it is probably a little less than 45 min (and these graphs are probably average results anyway), but 45 min is an easy number to remember. Also, the spec for the capacity is 2300 mAh.


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## SunFire900 (Aug 15, 2009)

Try this one: Go to our favorite on-line auction site. Type in "18650 battery charger". Scroll down to the one priced @ $5.19 w/free shipping. Order it! I think you'll be pleasantly surprised at how this one works w/18650 cells. It's not for any battery rated less than 1000mAh.

It may be cheap, but it works like a charm. Better than the Y*** one. At least for me.


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## Bones (Aug 16, 2009)

SunFire900 said:


> Try this one: Go to our favorite on-line auction site. Type in "18650 battery charger". Scroll down to the one priced @ $5.19 w/free shipping. Order it! I think you'll be pleasantly surprised at how this one works w/18650 cells. It's not for any battery rated less than 1000mAh.
> 
> It may be cheap, but it works like a charm. Better than the Y*** one. At least for me.



What are its input/output numbers SunFire900?

I couldn't quite make them out on the vendor's image.


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## LEDAdd1ct (Aug 16, 2009)

SunFire900 said:


> Try this one: Go to our favorite on-line auction site. Type in "18650 battery charger". Scroll down to the one priced @ $5.19 w/free shipping. Order it! I think you'll be pleasantly surprised at how this one works w/18650 cells. It's not for any battery rated less than 1000mAh.
> 
> It may be cheap, but it works like a charm. Better than the Y*** one. At least for me.



I can't *quite* make out the print, but it looks like it might be this one here.


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## tabetha (Aug 16, 2009)

My AW 2600mah 18650 take around 6 hours to fully charge, none of them have ever charged after full use in 3 hours, the rate I measured on mine was 342 ma charge rate.
tabetha


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## Moddoo (Aug 16, 2009)

Sorry. I have not read the entire thread.

I recently picked this up, and it works well.

http://www.shiningbeam.com/servlet/.../the-127/HXY-Digial-Li-dsh-Ion-Battery/Detail

stops at 4.2V on the dot.

1A per channel


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## SunFire900 (Aug 21, 2009)

Moddoo said:


> Sorry. I have not read the entire thread.
> 
> I recently picked this up, and it works well.
> 
> ...



That's the exact same one that's on ebay. I have one and it works great. Mine doesn't even have a UL mark. They must have stopped using them. The charger that came with my 35w Oracle HID doesn't have the UL mark either. Still works, though. They don't get any warmer than my Yoho chargers and they don't overcharge like my Yoho's.

If you know what you're doing and take your cells out of the charger when charge is complete (like you would do with any charger) you probably won't have any problems. No more so than with any charger. IMHO


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## rockz4532 (Aug 21, 2009)

Moddoo said:


> Sorry. I have not read the entire thread.
> 
> I recently picked this up, and it works well.
> 
> ...



That looks a lot like the Digital battery charger from DX, which I got a couple hours ago. So far I like it.
Open circuit voltage is 4.25v, and I'll tell you how long it takes when its done charging.


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## rockz4532 (Aug 21, 2009)

Just got done topping off some AW 17670's, and I noticed some unusual things...
1: When I first got the charger, the OC voltage was 4.25v, now its 4.18v, but still charges to 4.21v
2: When the battery is almost charged (4.19-4.2v, cv phase?) when i rotate or slightly move the battery, the light turns green momentarily, not a connection problem though, because when I put a dead cell in it stays solid red all the time.
3: the cells get warm, not hot when charging, 85-90 degrees?


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## The Dane (Aug 23, 2009)

There's one _big_ thing You all have overlooked until now!
Internal resistance in the cells.

I have a Hyperion EOS 1210I that will gladly charge LiPo's at 10A if they can take it.
The thing that lowers the charging current is internal resistence because the charger will not exeed 4.2V charging voltage. So a sh*tty cell will still take 3-4 hours to charge.

No magic just science:shrug:

My most powerfull 18650 is a Ultrafire 2400mA wich I just depleted at 5A.
Charging started at 3.1A
After 10min was 2.5A
30min 1.3A
60min 0.4A

So in short, a $200 charger can do no more than a $6 after the initial hour of charging.


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## SunFire900 (Aug 23, 2009)

+1

There you go with those annoying facts again, though some will probably disagree.


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## Tohuwabohu (Aug 23, 2009)

The Pila IBC has some 'magic' built into it to make the charging faster.
It has a negative output impedance to compensate for (a part of) the internal resistance and the resistance of the protection circuit.
I have my Pila for only two weeks now and did not yet manage to do all test I want to do before publishing my results in this forum but you can find my preliminary results in the german messerforum.net.
(The voltage was measured at the contacts of the charger, the current was measured with a 10 milliohm resistor. The second peak in the graphs is there because I pressed the reset button once 5 hours after the begin of charging)
The Pila rated at 600mA charges faster than the HXY-042V2000A rated at 1A per bay (charging graphs here).


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