# VIP Discussion Thread



## ZENGHOST (May 9, 2004)

I picked this up on Friday afternoon /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/buttrock.gif :

(click for larger image)





So I thought I'd do a little write-up (with Mr.Bulk's permission, of course).

I have not been able to put this thing down for the past day and a half. I picked it up right before class and I was messing with it even during class.

My first impression is that this is a really quality light. Of course I'd expect no less from Mr.Bulk, but it's always nice to see that my trust was not misplaced. It fits in the hand perfectly, and the knurling is well done and provides a very secure grip.

The King's Crown is probably the first thing that jumps out at you (before you turn it on, anyway).





I didn't know what to expect from the crown, but it turned out to be one of my favorite features. I used to not care about "candle mode" until I needed to use it one day. Now I'm a bit more aware of it. The KC works well in allowing space for the switch to be activated with the pad of the thumb while retaining its "stand-ability." And I've always liked the feel of the Kroll, so that works well.

The next thing is the switch.





7:00 is High, 9:00 Medium, and 11:00 is Low. The switch works well. A little tight at first, but it wears in. Though my fingers hurt a little because I've been messing with it for the past two days /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif . The switch has enough to it to allow it to be gripped easily and it also makes a nice "roll-stop."

The old lux meter rates the high at about 1350, medium at 730, and low at 48.

Now for the beamshots...

Comparing the High setting to a McLux PR by McGizmo (X3T bin):





While the McLux PR does put out more light, the hotspot of the VIP is brighter than that of the PR. My PR is an X3T and not nearly as green as it appears in the pic, but the VIP is whiter. The difference in spill is probably the most noticeable thing, but that's a factor of the optic vs. reflector. I did a walkaround test tonight and the VIP worked perfectly well with less spill, and it outthrew my PR.

The medium vs. Baby Pin (not Super):





The beams were almost identical between the VIP on medium setting and the Baby Pin, but the VIP overpowers the Baby Pin even on the medium setting.

Lastly, the low setting vs. Dorcy 1AA:





I think the low setting is pretty much at the perfect level. I had a Surefire L1 a while back and while I liked the hi/lo, I thought the low was just a hair _too_ low. The low setting on the VIP was fine during my walkabout tonight and should come in really handy when I want to either save battery power or use a subtle light. As you can see in the pic, it also is a lot whiter than the Dorcy 1AA. While the 1AA isn't the greatest light, I've found it to be a pretty good one, but there's no comparison there.

Overall--I'm damn glad I bought one of these. Can't wait for the black ones, those oughta be sweet. And I'm waiting to see all of the different options that will come out. This was my single most expensive light to date, but it was definitely worth it.

Sorry for the novel, but this thing makes me ramble a bit.

If anyone's interested, I made the first pic into wallpaper sized pics here:
1024 x 768 
800 x 600


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## frogmonk (May 9, 2004)

Zen, thanks for the nice comparisons, even though it doesn't help my anticipation. Well...any day for the black one.

I just had a nasty thought that if the KC ever gets used for self defense it might hurt /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif


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## BC0311 (May 9, 2004)

Excellent, Zenghost! Very well done. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbsup.gif

Britt


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## cue003 (May 9, 2004)

Zen, congrats on the light and thanks for the write up. I will be interested to see another shot of the VIP against the X3T after you get the "VIP Reflector" in it that Chop is selling.

Thanks again.

Curtis


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## Kiessling (May 9, 2004)

cool review! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbsup.gif
how is the KC in a pocket?
... ah ... I'll like this light with a reflector and some decent spill ... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/evilgrin07.gif
bernhard


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## Phil_B (May 9, 2004)

Great review Zen.Right out of the top drawer.


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## MR Bulk (May 9, 2004)

Sheesh Zen, although I do recall saying it would be fine to post, I didn't tell ya ta _LIE..._ /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Great write-up and pics, I especially like the way you are able to show the small pics with a hyperlink within them to the bigger pictures. Thanks.


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## MR Bulk (May 9, 2004)

Bernie if you'll notice, all the perimeter edging of the KC have been "broken", or minimally chamfered, even around the multi-angled "leg" points. It does serve to ease pocket ingress/egress, although if you do carry big, loopy things in there (do you crochet? heh heh) the points may snag on them...


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## Kiessling (May 9, 2004)

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/naughty.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/evilgrin07.gif
Charlie, you are definitely evil and not recommended by daughter's mothers ...
bernhard


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## ZENGHOST (May 9, 2004)

[ QUOTE ]
*MR Bulk said:*
Sheesh Zen, although I do recall saying it would be fine to post, I didn't tell ya ta _LIE..._ /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Great write-up and pics, I especially like the way you are able to show the small pics with a hyperlink within them to the bigger pictures. Thanks. 

[/ QUOTE ]
Hey, I cannot tell a lie /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon15.gif (but don't forget to send that check--$5 per compliment, right? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/twakfl.gif ).

Thanks, guys--I'm not a reviewer, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Curtis--yeah, I'm interested to see how the VIP reflector will match up to the PR as well.

Berhard--as Charlie mentioned, the edges of the KC have been rounded down to decrease the snagging factor. In fact, one of the nice points of this light is that there are no sharp edges anywhere on the light. On Friday night I carried it in a pocket on its own (bezel down), with no problems at all, but it was a cargo pocket with nothing else in it so it may be a different experience with a regular pocket. But just to expand on the rounded edges on the KC--they are not so rounded that they will not hurt. I tried a couple of light hits to my arm with it and it will definitely make a good impact device /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/twakfl.gif


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## rhinobalsa (May 9, 2004)

I don't see any holes in the crown? Aren't the VIP's going to come drilled for a belt clip?
Gary


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## Geode (May 9, 2004)

ZG - excellent job, thanks for posting and starting this thread. I have no idea when this light will arrive, but am really looking forward to it.

No place for split ring or lanyard attachment?


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## ZENGHOST (May 9, 2004)

[ QUOTE ]
*rhinobalsa said:*
I don't see any holes in the crown? Aren't the VIP's going to come drilled for a belt clip?
Gary 

[/ QUOTE ]
I don't recall what the final decision was on the holes, but mine has a small lanyard hold through one of the legs. If you look at the leg on the right, you can see a hole in it. It worked well with Tardis' quick release lanyard.

Geode--split ring should work well in there too.


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## MR Bulk (May 9, 2004)

Rhino and Geode:


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## PJD (May 10, 2004)

Since becoming a CPFer a couple years ago, I've purchased quite a few lights...somewhere around 225 or so. A lot of 'em were "cheapies", but quite a few were "high end" as well. I don't recall EVER anticipating a new light evenly remotely as much as I'm anticipating my VIP! I'd be lying if I said I don't mind the wait...because I DO!!! But some things are definitely worth the wait, and this is one of those things. I've bought/sold/traded SF's, Arc's, SL's, PILA's...and I know before I even get a VIP in my hand that it's gonna be a KEEPER! I got in on the tail end of the last of the three batches, so I know I'll be one of the last to get mine...but that's OK, because I MADE THE CUT!!! I'd rather be the last one on the list than the first one NOT on the list /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/banghead.gif! Keep pluggin' away, Charlie...BTW, it's only 2:15AM...I hope you haven't gone to bed yet and are still hard at work! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

PJD


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## MR Bulk (May 10, 2004)

2:15 am? YOWCHHH! It's only about 9:30 pm here...but now ya made me tired...*yawn*...zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz


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## KingSmono (May 10, 2004)

[ QUOTE ]
*ZENGHOST said:*
Thanks, guys--I'm not a reviewer, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif


[/ QUOTE ]

LOL! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/yellowlaugh.gif


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## darkgear.com (Jun 4, 2004)

I'm resurrecting this thread in hopes that people now receiving thier VIPs will post reviews and comments here instead of "The VIP thread". It may make it easier for people still waiting for thier VIP to find updates posted by Mr. Bulk.

Best regards,
Randy


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## Marty Weiner (Jun 4, 2004)

For those who are looking for immediate/temporary protective housing for their VIPs, I went through my collection of holsters and found that the Surefire nylon holster for the 6P fits very well.

Just push the VIP (head up) into the holster and stop when the VIP switch reaches the top of the holster. Once in, the velcro flap closes easily and this little puppy is protected until it "comes out to play".

Marty


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## raggie33 (Jun 4, 2004)

its monday here 943 am shhh


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## yaesumofo (Jun 4, 2004)

Received my VIP's today. Nice very nice. I can't wait to stick reflectors into them. The switch on the smoothie was a little stupid at first but seems ok now. More later. BTW they are both brighter than my SBP and ARC-4's.
Nice and bright and white.
Yaesymofo


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## Aten_Imago (Jun 4, 2004)

Zenghost
Very nice review indeed. I'm sure it has encouraged those that are still waiting to get thiers- as I am.
Have you managed to do a comparison between the VIP and the Firefly or the VIP and a Surefire L4 ? I seem to see this light compared to just 2 others-the McLux and the Baby Pin are these lights still in production? How do I obtain samples of them to do evaluations myself?
Thanks again. Great photos BTW !

AI

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbsup.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbsup.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbsup.gif


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## ZENGHOST (Jun 4, 2004)

[ QUOTE ]
*Aten_Imago said:*
Zenghost
Very nice review indeed. I'm sure it has encouraged those that are still waiting to get thiers- as I am.
Have you managed to do a comparison between the VIP and the Firefly or the VIP and a Surefire L4 ? I seem to see this light compared to just 2 others-the McLux and the Baby Pin are these lights still in production? How do I obtain samples of them to do evaluations myself?
Thanks again. Great photos BTW !

AI

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbsup.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbsup.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbsup.gif 

[/ QUOTE ]
Thanks--I don't have a Firefly, but I'll try and do a comparison between the L4 and the VIP tonight. There are still some Baby Pins floating around but they are no longer made. Some people still make McLux PR's like the one I used in my comparison as the parts are available on the Sandwich Shoppe.


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## Radagast (Jun 4, 2004)

I GOT MINE! I wasn't expecting it so soon. Thanks to Charlie and the HAT team! Ditto what Zenghost said about how lovely it is. This sucker's bright, way brighter than my arc4 second. I also got Chop's reflector. I'm going to enjoy working tonight (Flashaholism sure makes the third shift more enjoyable).

So far I carried it in my pocket next to my wallet and it rides nicely, no problem with the prongs. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/buttrock.gif Thanks again Mr. Bulk! Off to bed!


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## milkyspit (Jun 4, 2004)

According to Charlie's communications and the date of my payment, looks like mine is on the way! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif

But it hasn't arrived yet, and I've been wasting LOTS of time checking the mailbox several times a day. I WANT MY VIP! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mecry.gif

Man, didn't think this little single cell light was going to be THAT big a deal for my photon arsenal... but as the moment draws near, I realize how anxious I truly am. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grinser2.gif

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/naughty.gif


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## MR Bulk (Jun 4, 2004)




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## JonSidneyB (Jun 4, 2004)

It really looks like Charlie has a winner here.


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## Marty Weiner (Jun 4, 2004)

I just put a reflector in my VIP and it's AWESOME!!!


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## MR Bulk (Jun 4, 2004)

[ QUOTE ]
*Marty Weiner said:*
I just put a reflector in my VIP and it's AWESOME!!! 

[/ QUOTE ]


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## wasabe64 (Jun 4, 2004)

Zenghost, great review.

Here's a couple of better shots of the Prototype VIP.










Sorry, still no beamshots.

This is truly an amazing light. The brightness at max rivals my hotrodded 2x123 KL3/FraenLP, and the VIP only uses one cell.


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## GJW (Jun 4, 2004)

never mind
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif


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## MR Bulk (Jun 4, 2004)

Ooh, nice case. Not a Pelican, I presume? Pick'n Pluck foam filler?

BTW Zackhugh used car wax (and a soft-bristled brush, I think) to finish his particular bare silver wide-finner, gleams like jewelry now and the finish is a little more protected from the elements as well.


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## wasabe64 (Jun 5, 2004)

Yep, Pelican 1030 case w. foam.

I'll have to give the car wax a try. Thanks again Charlie!


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## sstrauss (Jun 5, 2004)

wasabe64; That case is going to have to grow in order to fit all of the accesories. Perhaps there will be a market for precut VIP inserts for the larger Pelican cases.
SCott


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## zackhugh (Jun 5, 2004)

[ QUOTE ]
*MR Bulk said:*
BTW Zackhugh used car wax (and a soft-bristled brush, I think) to finish his particular bare silver wide-finner, gleams like jewelry now and the finish is a little more protected from the elements as well. 

[/ QUOTE ]

One Grand Omega Glaze and One Grand Blitz Wax to be exact, though I suspect a good quality glaze and carnauba wax would work just as well. I think the glaze is what really polishes the bare aluminum as the cloth revealed a lot of black residue. The wax was just additional luster and protection. No brushes, only a foam applicator sponge and 100% cotton cloth to wipe. It's real similar to how you would use these products on your car.


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## wasabe64 (Jun 5, 2004)

Sstrauss, there's a larger case in the the works, I just need to wait for all of the accessories so I can build the case to the correct size.

Zackhugh, thanks for the info!


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## this_is_nascar (Jun 5, 2004)




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## BC0311 (Jun 5, 2004)

TIN, if you'll resize that graph to about 600 wide, alot of us won't have to scroll horizontally to see it and the rest of the posts on the page as well.

EDIT: Thank you, TIN poifect /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbsup.gif

It seems that Lux readings are often taken at different distances between the lens and sensor. Does it affect the reading that much? Like between 2.5" and 1 meter?

Britt


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## Bullzeyebill (Jun 5, 2004)

23 minutes of bright high, followed by downward slope tapering off at low lux for quite awhile. Did you try the second level of VIP? Please explain.

Bill


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## raggie33 (Jun 5, 2004)

ok i got my vip. i got this light cause the kindness of this great group im very grateful .well i got it and opened box i was like kid at xmas.still didnt read instructions sorry charlie i will read em i promise im just to excited i open box and it was way way better look then even the pics where it is art . so now i look at it more and think it must have no batts it is so light so i do a raggie and clcik switch while my eyes are looking at bright end and bam ouchy.it had a batt and man is it bright i was amazed i assumed it was shipied on high.but no it was on medium i switched it to high and almost fainted it was amazeing and in true bulk fashion pure white.all i can say is to thumbs up and 10 stars rovk and roll this is one kick but light


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## raggie33 (Jun 5, 2004)

o ps it fits in my pocket very well


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## BC0311 (Jun 5, 2004)

Glad you got yours, Edd. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbsup.gif

Have fun tonight.


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## raggie33 (Jun 5, 2004)

britt i was walking to store i saw mail man i watchedi saw he was going to my street i ran home got to mail box 10 seconds after him and it aint thursday man ihate the thursday mail lady she is dum


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## milkyspit (Jun 5, 2004)

[ QUOTE ]
*BC0311 said:*
TIN, if you'll resize that graph to about 600 wide, alot of us won't have to scroll horizontally to see it and the rest of the posts on the page as well.

EDIT: Thank you, TIN poifect /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbsup.gif

It seems that Lux readings are often taken at different distances between the lens and sensor. Does it affect the reading that much? Like between 2.5" and 1 meter?

Britt 

[/ QUOTE ]

Britt, lux readings are VERY distance-dependent. Technically speaking, lux is supposed to be measured at a distance of one meter. IT'S VERY IMPORTANT!

That said, I think what Nascar is doing is giving us a look at the brightness vs. runtime characteristics of various lights. You can look at his charts and see how long a light will run, or how it dims over time, or even to a certain extent how the brightness compares to other lights (although the latter isn't completely accurate because the optics and/or reflectors could change the way the lights perform at greater distances), but you shouldn't use Nascar's charts to determine the ABSOLUTE brightness of any of these lights.

Uh, did I confuse you more? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ohgeez.gif


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## MR Bulk (Jun 5, 2004)

Ragzz, glad it reached you okay. You can thank Britt (and a couple of others) more than me.

On TIN's chart, I guess the primary question I have is how the VIP's graph line could drop down the way it did. If it was on High and the battery ran out of steam after 23 minutes it would strobe (flash on and off about twice per second) and it would thus not be possible to take further readings from it. Perhaps this chart was taken with the VIP set to Medium?

Also I have found (as has McGizmo) that at different distances light outputs will vary among different lights as well. Meaning a light that is "brighter" at very close distance can fade more quickly in measured lux output than another light as it is moved away from the meter's sensor (think of each as having differently shaped beam "cones", one long and narrow, the other short and wide). It would be interesting to see the same test conducted again at one meter, the "standard" metering distance we have all come to use over the past couple of years in order to compare lights the same way.

As well, was there a chance to test a "regular" Arc4+? I do have a couple of "ringer" VIPs that were extreme overachievers but I avoided showing these (keepin'em fer m'self, heh heh) as they would not be representative of what the majority of VIP end users would receive.

Perhaps I should sell those for $250 or $500, or put them up for auction on...e-bay? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/naughty.gif


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## raggie33 (Jun 5, 2004)

i got ,my vip in pocket and my baby pin they are awesume


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## KingSmono (Jun 5, 2004)

DIBS on the VIPx!!! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif


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## BC0311 (Jun 5, 2004)

Thanks milkyspit, I just wanted someone to say it like you did for the benefit of others.

Charlie touches on a number of important points about this comparison plot, too.

I think the 2.5" distance is ridiculous. How do I compare that with the vast majority of Lux readings taken on lights where the distance is 1 meter?

I'll be interested to see if Roy runs the VIP through all 3 levels. I'm more acquainted with his methodology.


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## KingSmono (Jun 5, 2004)

In Nascar's defense... As long as he does ALL the lights the same way, it still provides valuable information relative to * the other lights in the graph. * It might not be useful for comparing against anything else, but it shouldn't be discounted just because his methodology is different.


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## FlashlightOCD (Jun 5, 2004)

My VIP hit the Central FL today!

Although the stock Fraen is well centered, I immediatedly replaced it with Chops reflector and will definitely leave it that way until the BH comes out. Absolutley no donut hole [I guess that wouldn't be expected from a single die anyway]. In other words I highly recommend Chops reflector, it is a perfect match for this light.

Mine has slightly blueish tinge compared with my L4, it makes my L4 beam look very yellow. I personally prefer the blue tinge over the yellow tinge, and I'm sure it's one of those Luxeon lotto things that can't be avoided.

My only real complaint is the intensity switch is a little mushy. That is to say there is no firm "click" when it changes from one setting to the next [Hey ... I had to be critical about something].

Overall I think buyers are going to find it well worth the money and the wait. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbsup.gif 

Hats off to Charlie and the HAT team. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/clap.gif


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## LightChucker (Jun 5, 2004)

Arrived in Raytown, Missouri today, 6/5/04.

It is everything I expected it to be. Charlie, you and your friends did an amazing job designing, building, testing, and shipping all these lights. Without people like you, people like me would not have a chance to own such a beautiful machine like the VIP.

Chuck /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/buttrock.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbsup.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/clap.gif


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## ledlurker (Jun 5, 2004)

I got mine today. This is the first light I have gotton with a Fraen LP optic. Is the squarish corona light the norm for these. Otherwise this is a great light


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## KingSmono (Jun 5, 2004)

Yep, that's normal from the Fraen LP optic. I think I'm gonna swap it with a reflector when I get mine. Can't wait, I'm envious, but not seeing enough pics guys!!! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif


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## cue003 (Jun 5, 2004)

Yeah... where are the pics/beam comparos?


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## ZENGHOST (Jun 5, 2004)

FlashlightOCD--the bare switch actually has a noticeable click to each of the settings, but I think after putting the O-ring in there it feels a little "mushier," but that's the price you pay for the water-resistance. It should still be obvious where the steps are, though.

And led-lurker, yes, that's normal for the Fraen.

I didn't get a chance to do the L4/VIP comparison, but I'm waiting for my reflectors to come in first. Hopefully they'll show up today.


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## BC0311 (Jun 5, 2004)

In any empirical comparison test, the testing methodology is a very good reason for discounting the results. 

Variances in methodology are why, for the most part, we "discount" Lumens claims by manufacturers.

I don't doubt TIN's methodology is consistent.


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## milkyspit (Jun 5, 2004)

Got mine! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/party.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/party.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/party.gif A real work of art, and a functional one at that. Surprisingly lightweight for the size, too.

The switch on mine was mushy as well. I think that's a side effect of putting an O-ring in there to seal against the elements, unfortunately. The switch itself has a certain amount of "click strength" that makes it snap into each position as it approaches... that's what makes one feel the click through the shaft. But the O-ring adds some resistance to the turning action of the shaft since it physically makes contact with it (it has to, to keep water and other nasties out!), and that dampens the "snap" action so the click feels less distinct. Charlie, please correct me if I'm wrong! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ooo.gif I don't think there's a real simple solution to that, short of getting a switch with a more extreme "snapping force" (unlikely) or loosening the contact between O-ring and shaft, which would also decrease water resistance (probably a bad idea). /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif

On the other hand, it may get a little better as the VIP is used, and kinda "breaks in" a bit.

Incidentally, I meant *no disrespect* of Nascar's graphs, and hope nobody got that from reading my post! I for one am thankful for his efforts. My point was that his information is *most* valid for estimating how your light will dim over time, and *probably* fairly valid for comparing *total* output among the lights on the graph, but really shouldn't be used as an indication of throw. That doesn't mean the graph is wrong in any way, so long as it's *used for its intended purpose*!


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## MR Bulk (Jun 5, 2004)

[ QUOTE ]
*KingSmono said:*
In Nascar's defense... As long as he does ALL the lights the same way, it still provides valuable information relative to * the other lights in the graph. * It might not be useful for comparing against anything else, but it shouldn't be discounted just because his methodology is different. 

[/ QUOTE ]


No need to defend Ray, I'm sure everyone has their own methodology dependent upon the particular measuring equipment available, but consider this (which Britt mentioned in another thread) - some lights have a central void in the beam at close range that fills in when you move further back (donut hole, for example). At 2.5" you'd be measuring the darkness of the hole! Not saying the Fraen has any void at close range, but again just something to consider. Moving back to at least a yard or so would give most flashlights the necessary distance to form their characteristically "normal" beams.

Speaking of normal, there is also the issue of normal usage range. Rarely if ever would anyone need to use a brighter light such as the VIP on High or Arc4X on Level 1 from a couple of inches away. Testing at realistic ranges such as those encountered during actual use would be a better indication.


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## this_is_nascar (Jun 5, 2004)

I'll tell ya what guys. This is the 2nd time in the last 24-hours that I've gotten my balls busted over my graphs. I can not account for the lack of common sense by some people. I know that this is not an accurate measure of LUX. Measuring LUX is not my intent. Why the hell would I list multiple lights on the same chart, if they weren't being measured the same way, with all the constants being equal. In every chart/mearurement I do, the following constants remain the same.

1. A fresh SureFire cell is used, assuming the light takes 123-cells.
2. The meter is put on the LUX setting at 10x mode.
3. An opaque film canister is inverted to rest above the light sensor.
4. The meter logging is enabled, the light is turned on and then is place on the film canister, where it remains untouch for the duration of the test.
5. The light meter is setup to take a snapshot of the output every 1-minute.

Those results are captured and plotted and the chart you see is the end result. It only shows light output relative to each light. The tests also shows the extent of regulation and runtime. It's a great comparitive display between lights. Feel free to ask questions. That's fine, but don't bust my balls about the data not being valid.

I'm currentl finishing a test whereas the VIP test was started on medium. I'll post that update shortly.


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## geepondy (Jun 5, 2004)

Guys question on the optics: I see some of you have replaced the stock optics with a reflector. Not long ago, I had Chop modify a KL1 for me which included a swap out of optics to a reflector. The result was a very smooth hotspot with a wide corona of side spill light. The optics on the VIP produce a bigger hotspot but very blotchy and with little corona. If I replace the optics with a reflector (assuming I can get one), will a I get a similar beam pattern that I have described with the reflector on the KL1? I much prefer this type of beam. I assume it's pretty easy to replace the optics with a reflector on the VIP.

I too, have high accolades for the light. Yes, I believe the prongs on the King's crown could be used as a last ditch impact weapon!


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## BC0311 (Jun 5, 2004)

I'm not busting your balls about the data not being valid, TIN. Good grief, being questioned on your methods is equal to getting your balls busted? My sons had a good laugh at that. 

Good thing you aren't gonna be down south where I'm going next week. It ain't just a ball buster, it's a heart breaker.

Oh well. How come you measure at 2.5" instead of 1 meter?

Did you notice the VIP pulses towards the end?

Maybe the 1 minute "snapshots" couldn't catch the pulses?

Seem like sensible questions to me.


----------



## this_is_nascar (Jun 5, 2004)

I've added an Arc4+ Rev1 and Rev2. The VIP "medium" test is almost done.


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## this_is_nascar (Jun 5, 2004)

Here's the final chart, with the VIP set to MEDIUM mode at the start of the test.


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## Zman (Jun 5, 2004)

All I see is the little red 'x'...could there be a problem with the picture?
See it clearly now...thanks!


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## Erik Johnson (Jun 5, 2004)

Great to see the medium VIP level plotted. If you really feel like burning through another battery, you could try High until strobe, then switch to medium (til strobe), then low. I realize this requires a bit of hand-holding, but it would represent the way a person might use the light out-in-the-wild.

Erik.


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## 83Venture (Jun 5, 2004)

Three days from Charlie to Maryland, VIP & reflector received at the same time. 

Just put the reflector in, cleans up the beam very well. The fraen had the square pattern and you could see a round hotspot in one quadrant. With the reflector in it has a beam very simular to the ARC 4. I wonder how the bulkhead will handle the two different configurations? I did not put the O ring in, thought I saw in a couple of threads that it is not necessary. If I am wrong sombody please let me know so I can insert it. 

Something a little funny about the variable power switch on mine. Turn on the light and it will activate at the level you have the switch set for Low-Med-Hi. But if light is on and you switch down from Med or Hi, or you start on low, switch up then switch down to low its brightness is about a third of the output normally received on low. Click off then on at this setting and it is back at standard low output. I am not complaining - it is like having a 4th lowpower super runtime setting. Just wondered if anyone else has noticed this?


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## Erik Johnson (Jun 5, 2004)

I too am seeing a fourth, ultra low power mode. However, I also see it while hitting the momentary switch while in low mode. About half the time it is at normal low mode, and the other times it is at an intensity less than half that bright.

Strange.

Looking forward to cleaning up the beam with a reflector. Please don't read this post incorrectly, I have no complaints, this is the best light I own! 2.5 hours on the eminently useful medium level is pretty frickin amazing (look at how flat that line is).

Oh my goodness! I just noticed that double clicking the light puts me into ultra low every time I try it. Did you stick a CPU in there Charlie? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Erik.


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## keithhr (Jun 5, 2004)

Ray, thanks for your graphs, they are most revealing and to my way of thinking will be the defacto standard for comparing these lights. Your last graph is especially revealing and it tells me everything I wanted to know about operating my VIP's. Thanks for taking the time and expense of running these tests, it was very nice of you.


----------



## geepondy (Jun 5, 2004)

Guys, please tell me where I can get a reflector. I PM'd Chop about availability from him but are you getting these somewhere else?


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## Bullzeyebill (Jun 5, 2004)

Can't wait for that 2AA body. I think that "high" mode will last longer and flatter.

Bill


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## geepondy (Jun 5, 2004)

Hey I am getting ultra dim mode too. When I switch from medium to low while under power, it goes into ultra dim mode. In fact I went back and fourth this way several times and it went into ultra dim mode each time. However when I leave the setting on low and cycle power, it comes on at "normal" dim level. Medium and high settings do not seem to exhibit this type of behavior. (too bad no ultra high mode, ha, ha). I can live with this but wonder what the explanation is?


----------



## Marty Weiner (Jun 5, 2004)

[ QUOTE ]
*geepondy said:*
Guys, please tell me where I can get a reflector. I PM'd Chop about availability from him but are you getting these somewhere else? 

[/ QUOTE ]

I got mine from flashlightlens.com. They fit both the Longbow Micra and the VIP very easily.

Marty


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## LightChucker (Jun 5, 2004)

I am getting the double-dim too.

Chuck


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## milkyspit (Jun 5, 2004)

I'm getting the "Easter egg" mode too. (The term "Easter egg" is often used in computer software to refer to a hidden feature.) /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif

This is a HIGHLY SPECULATIVE, off-the-cuff thought, but maybe when we switch from medium to low while the light is on, the regulator thinks the battery is weakening and drops the light into unregulated direct drive mode? But when the light is activated while already in low, it runs as intended. Just a thought! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thinking.gif


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## acusifu (Jun 5, 2004)

I ordered a reflector from flashlightlens. Could someone post beamshots with the reflector ? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/drool.gif


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## Erik Johnson (Jun 5, 2004)

I really like the double-click ultra low mode. It is very easy to activate (double-click momentary mode by the way). I can get it to work every time, and then pressing the rest of the way to the lock position, keeps it in this ultra low mode.

I would prefer to move the dimmer switch as little as necessary (not nearly as easy to replace as a kroll). So, I prefer the double-click method for activation.

Erik.


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## 83Venture (Jun 5, 2004)

Erik 

The click/Dbl thing click works the same on mine, thanks for finding that one. Unless Charlie says that there is something happening that may damage the light I don't want to "fix" it.

geepondy

I order mine from Chop. Last I heard he still had reflectors but was out of O rings. O rings are not necessary but will hold the reflector and UCL in place so they don't fall out when you remove the head, handy if you are using it in candle mode.

I too am looking foward to the two AA body.


----------



## geepondy (Jun 5, 2004)

OK, thanks, I will go to flashlightlens.com. Yes, in addition to my light's behavior described previously, I too can get the same results by the double click method.


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## NeonLights (Jun 5, 2004)

I get the fourth extra-dim mode too, but mine isn't completely predictable. It follows the above description about 3/4 of the time, but sometimes it stays in the extra-dim mode when I cycle on and off without touching the level switch. I'm not sure if I like it, I'll have to live with it for awhile and see.

-Keith


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## G Pilot (Jun 5, 2004)

I got mine today...thank you Charlie (now if I could get my SBP to work again) /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/bowdown.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbsup.gif 

Mine works like it supose to, no ultra low mode here /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/buttrock.gif


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## raggie33 (Jun 5, 2004)

ok  so now it is dark.i walk out side i have the vip on low im so jazzed at how bright it is even on low .then medium im like wow then high and it blew my %&*&* mind charlie ya did it again this is the light to have in 2004


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## finboy1672 (Jun 5, 2004)

Does anybody have any thoughts on whether the VIP with the KC will have trouble getting through airport security? I might order a twisty just in case.


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## gadget_lover (Jun 5, 2004)

My VIP arrived today. The postman squished to box to get it through the mail slot, but you can't hurt the VIP, so that's OK. Within minutes, I ran the VIP on my "integration litterbox". This setup shows my LSH-P at about 22 lumens and the Surefire L4 at about 65.

The VIP on low: less than 1 lumen.
The VIP on medium: 30 lumens
The VIP on Hi: 54 lumens.

To put things in perspective, my home built lux III puts out 30 lumens through a Fraen LP and wows people consistantly.

I like my new VIP

Daniel


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## gadget_lover (Jun 5, 2004)

Very interesting posts about ultra low.

I did not see an ultra low, so I grabbed the light meter.

With the lux meter and flashlight held steady and the beam off center, got 134 lux, then did the double click. It dropped to 93.

I did this several times with the same result.

The lux measurements are relative, and not measured at any specific distance. This tells me that, on mine, I see the ultra low as 3/4 of low.

Daniel


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## brightnorm (Jun 6, 2004)

Ultralow on mine also. Too bad we'll lose ultralow double-clickability with the twisty, but at least we can do a quick selector up/down.

Brighhtnorm


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## Mr Ted Bear (Jun 6, 2004)

I think you guys will find out that the "ultra" low mode, as it has been described is more a function of the battery condition, than two double click switching mentioned above.


As an example, with a rechargeable li-ion rechargeable (3.65v) the light has one level - high only. I have put at least 2 dozen cells though my vip, and most of the time, with a fresh cell, I can not obtain the "ultra low mode". Only after running the light several minutes can I obtain an "ultra low mode. Then, with a half depleted battery, what every has called the "ultra low mode" is actually the norm, and there is no "high" level for the low setting

It turns out that the kroll switch can sometimes have somewhat high internal resistance. The addtional resistance fools the vip circuit into thinking there is a low battery, and therefore increases the current flow to the luxeon.


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## MR Bulk (Jun 6, 2004)

Wow, a guy takes a day off (from building VIPs, hadda go to my "real" work today, ya know!) and comes back to see all these posts! Especially about the new secret VIP feature, the "Ultra-Low Setting"... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/naughty.gif

Actually the original Low setting was to be 60mA as recommended by the EEs who designed the VIP circuit, but I was dissatisfied because it was still way too bright, so against their recommendations I had them change it to 30mA. Turns out this was almost too low and put the circuit right on the "hairy edge" of functionality.

You see, there is actually a direct current path from the battery to the LED via several of the board components, with the switcher located over the path and designed to "kick in" or engage when it senses current beyond a certain level. But upon initial activation of any device battery output sags. In the VIP it has enough power upon initial activation to trip the switcher; however, on some examples if you switch to Low while the light is running (battery is now under load) the Low actually becomes Direct Drive through the resistance path of the Low subcircuit because the switcher does not engage, hence running probably only an estimated 10 to 20mA directly through the aforementioned path (thus the "super dim" setting).

If the light is turned off for a few seconds and then turned back on while still in Low, the battery has time to recover and the switcher engages, thus outputting the original 30mA and providing the "normal" Low brightness.

If the light is turned off and then _immediately_ turned back on, the battery will not have fully "recovered" and the switcher will not engage, thereby putting you back into the Ultra-Low Direct Drive (through the Low path's standard 30mA resistance SMD's) brightness level. This can be manifested by the quick "double-clicking" that some of you are trying.

Bear in mind that despite all efforts, no two VIPs (nor many professionally manufactured products, for that manner) can be made precisely exactly alike, especially when running at the 30mA borderline of switcher disengagement, and that is why only some of you are experiencing this phenomenon consistently, while some see it only occasionally, while most will not see it at all.

There is nothing to worry about and the light is not at risk of any damage from this anomaly. I guess you could look at it as indeed having a "fourth level" of brightness, albeit a very dim one.

Clear as mud?

And to answer BrightNorm's post, even with the twisty you may still be able to reproduce this effect granted you have a VIP that already exhibits this behavior, by simply turning the twisty on and off and then on again very quickly. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

*EDIT - TedBear is also right in that when the battery is no longer fresh it too will duplicate a non-recovered battery and the output in Low will be ultra dim. In any case, whenever the light no longer functions satisfactorily a fresh battery should be substituted.


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## G Pilot (Jun 6, 2004)

*Shining Star...this is a sweet picture!*

I captured the the flash in the reflector just perfect enough to create a star.


----------



## Frenchyled (Jun 6, 2004)

*Re: Shining Star...this is a sweet picture!*

Very nice Picture G Pilot /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbsup.gif
Can you however reduce your image in 640x480 /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

My screen is too small and I have to use horizontal scrolling to see it /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif


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## MR Bulk (Jun 6, 2004)

*Re: Shining Star...this is a sweet picture!*

You have it set to Low, I see...


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## raggie33 (Jun 6, 2004)

*Re: Shining Star...this is a sweet picture!*

weeeeeee i was out playing aGAIN man this light is fun. i think the low setting is perfect medium is fun high requires welding glasses


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## Tree (Jun 6, 2004)

*Re: Shining Star...this is a sweet picture!*

Wooo Hooo. Got mine yesterday about a half an hour before going into work. Then luck would have it I was forced to work for about an hour in a dark warehouse (night with no lights on) setting up equipment. The VIP on medium was perfect for this. I didn't have my headband with me, so I tucked it in between my Niteize holster and my belt facing front and went to work. The spill from Chop's reflector was just what the doctor ordered!!!. Oh and it fits perfectly in the larger pocket of the Niteize holster that was originally designed for a multitool. All through the night I used and had use for all levels of brightness from my crafty little VIP. I probably spent 5 min switching from med to high while shining on objects 40 - 100 feet away to see the difference. At around 70 feet with medium I was able to tell what I was looking at, on high I could see the details of what I was looking at.

Thanks Mr Bulk, you have a winner (and a satisfied customer) here!! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbsup.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/buttrock.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/clap.gif

Anybody know if there is the same kind of spill from the Bulkhead as the reflector that Chop sold?

OH and many pics and beamshots are to come when I get a few moments. I'll do my best to capture the spill of the reflector vs the fraen. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif


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## nybble (Jun 6, 2004)

*Re: Shining Star...this is a sweet picture!*

I got mine yesterday (placed order mar 3) and am impressed! This thing is cool! Thanks a lot!


----------



## Bullzeyebill (Jun 6, 2004)

*Re: Shining Star...this is a sweet picture!*

Charlie, what payment date will you be shipping out Monday?

Bill


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## MR Bulk (Jun 6, 2004)

*Re: Shining Star...this is a sweet picture!*

Bullz,

Rest of the 3-12's and possibly into the 3-13's. Also please keep in mind that I must occasionally sprinkle in the snailmail payments that were made during those times, to be as fair as possible.


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## gadget_lover (Jun 6, 2004)

*Re: Shining Star...this is a sweet picture!*

Sometimes things just work out strangely.

I got my VIP last night at 9 PM after spending the day away from home. That's OK, because in Central California, it's not getting dark till almost 9.

I played with my VIP before going to bed, exhausted from a long day. At 4 AM, I was awakened to the sound of my UPS (un-interuptable power supply) alarm. Yes, we had our first power outage in about a year. We don't get them often, but I run a computer consulting firm out of my house so I have 6 or 7 UPSes to protect my little computer farm.

I grabbed the VIP (the L1 was next to it, but you know how these things work) and turned it on. I tried to turn it down to low, only to realize that I'd left it on low. With dark adjusted eyes it was just fine. 

I used the VIP for about 20 minutes as I called the power company, powered down my other equipment and fed the cats. It left it on low the whole time.

When I came back to bed, ny wife had lit a candle for a night light. I set the VIP on it's tail, bouncing the light off the ceiling. Before I could offer to leave it like that, she said...

"Turn that off, honey. It's too bright to sleep".


Funny how things turn out.

BTW, the unique shape of the VIP makes it very easy to find by touch in the dark. The color makes it almost impossible to find by eye.

Daniel


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## Phil_B (Jun 6, 2004)

*Re: Shining Star...this is a sweet picture!*

Shipping the 3/13s eh Charlie? Would a pretty please help my case here?
Thought not,I'll get me coat... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif


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## Bullzeyebill (Jun 6, 2004)

*Re: Shining Star...this is a sweet picture!*

I'm 3/26; light years away.

Bill


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## MR Bulk (Jun 6, 2004)

*Re: Shining Star...this is a sweet picture!*

A very big Major Thanks to everyone for liking'em, as well as buying'em in the first place! Your trust in my integrity and faith in the (probably way overblown) reputation of my mods is greatly appreciated and gratifying indeed.

Hi PhilB,

Ah, yes, them UK furriners... I do believe that in the interest of expediency I possibly skipped a few days past 3-12 just for the foreign orders since I prefer to get as many of the internationally shipped parcels out of the way as I can at a time, before getting back to domestic mailouts. Meaning I just may have shipped to Europe some of those who paid after 3-12...


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## geepondy (Jun 6, 2004)

*Re: Shining Star...this is a sweet picture!*

Yup,Charlie's right. I put a brand new Sanyo in the light and no more ultradim even when double clicking.


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## bmstrong (Jun 6, 2004)

*Re: Shining Star...this is a sweet picture!*

Question for everyone who bought a reflector and stuck into the VIP: Do you lose any brightness against the stock Fraen?

Thanks,

Brian


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## bwaites (Jun 6, 2004)

*Re: Shining Star...this is a sweet picture!*

MrBulk, 

It would be impossible to "overblow" the faith those who have purchased one of your mods have in your ability to come up with new, unique, and extremely functional lights.

As yet, no major manufacturer makes anything to compare with the SNII, a light that has been around for well over a year if I remember correctly.

So far as your integrity, the way I remember it is that even though you had stopped making SNII's you happily stepped up and said, "Sure I think I have all the stuff to make one if you can live with Pewter!"

I haven't got my VIP yet, but my SNII is my favorite light and will stay King of the Hill among the Luxeons, at least until the VIP is able to wrestle it off! From the early reports, it sounds like that may happen.

Thank you for your courage in pushing the envelope!!

Bill


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## Wolfen (Jun 6, 2004)

*Re: Shining Star...this is a sweet picture!*

I got mine yesterday. I turned it on high for about 2 seconds and replaced the fraen with the Chop reflector. I really like that reflector. Great sidespill, useful spot. Medium is great, low is real nice and high is nice and bright. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbsup.gif

I was a little disappointed because there is spot on the tail cap where the HAIII is missing. I kinda like having a pristine light for at least 2-3 days. Black is beautiful but it really shows the flaws. But it's just gonna get knocked around in my pocket anyway. I don't baby any of my lights. No trailer queens around here!


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## BC0311 (Jun 6, 2004)

*Re: Shining Star...this is a sweet picture!*

Well said, Bill. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbsup.gif


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## NeonLights (Jun 6, 2004)

*Re: Shining Star...this is a sweet picture!*

[ QUOTE ]
*Wolfen said:*
I was a little disappointed because there is spot on the tail cap where the HAIII is missing. I kinda like having a pristine light for at least 2-3 days. Black is beautiful but it really shows the flaws. But it's just gonna get knocked around in my pocket anyway. I don't baby any of my lights. No trailer queens around here! 

[/ QUOTE ]

I know the feeling. I was also a little disappointed to find two very small, but visible, places where the black HA-III finish was scratched off the switch on my VIP when I got it out of the package. I figure the switch along with the tailcap will see the most wear anyways, so it isn't a big deal with me. 

Charlie, are you going to keep HA-III body parts, switch knobs, etc on hand for replacement use if needed?

-Keith


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## MR Bulk (Jun 6, 2004)

*Re: Shining Star...this is a sweet picture!*

Dang it, wanted my VIPs to be perfect in every way but try this - touch on the spot with a black Sharpie and when dry, lightly buff with terrycloth or similar. Won't show you ever even had it...but I do apologize!


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## MR Bulk (Jun 6, 2004)

*Re: Shining Star...this is a sweet picture!*

Oh yeah one more thing - when all is said and done if there are any spare body parts (kind of unlikely though), I'll offer'em up. Sorry again.


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## Wolfen (Jun 6, 2004)

*Re: Shining Star...this is a sweet picture!*

Charlie,
No need to apologize /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif the light is really something else!


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## raggie33 (Jun 6, 2004)

*Re: Shining Star...this is a sweet picture!*

yeppers this light is way cool, cant wait for dark tonight .but i hate the street lights on my street


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## Radagast (Jun 6, 2004)

*Re: Shining Star...this is a sweet picture!*

Very nice light, Charlie! A little big for pocket carry, though. With baggy jeans..maybe. Time to get a good pouch. It's not the length as the thickness. Not a complaint, though...I wouldn't change a thing, except the Fraen for Chop's reflector. I'm a sucker for spill. The hotspot is larger and more useful than my Arc4 second's(maybe that's why it's a second, though). I thought the Arc4 had a white beam, but it looks a little yellow now by comparison. The VIP beam is like new snow. 

You know, with the BH and on its head it's going to look like a chess piece!


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## naromtap (Jun 6, 2004)

*Re: Shining Star...this is a sweet picture!*

I is lovin the posted first impressions/reviews of all you ppl receiving your lights!! I received my SO17XA reflector from Chop the other day & was just wondering wether you that are using it have a Lens to accompany it, if so where from?


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## Radagast (Jun 6, 2004)

*Re: Shining Star...this is a sweet picture!*

narom, I kept the ultra clear lens that came with VIP. As much as I love the reflector I could see there being somewhere a better fitting one. But this one is darn close. It does the job /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbsup.gif


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## naromtap (Jun 6, 2004)

*Re: Shining Star...this is a sweet picture!*

[ QUOTE ]
*Radagast said:*
narom, I kept the ultra clear lens that came with VIP. As much as I love the reflector I could see there being somewhere a better fitting one. But this one is darn close. It does the job /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbsup.gif 

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks Radagast - If the VIP comes with one - great!! For some reason I imagined it woulda just had an optic held in by the bezel.


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## geepondy (Jun 6, 2004)

*Re: Shining Star...this is a sweet picture!*

Off topic:

My SNII is a rockin' light! I keep it in the car. It is one of my lesser used lights because I mainly require wide beam task lights but it is the light that impresses people the most. I have told Charlie via email more then once that I think he should make more of them and possibly consider going commercial with that light if possible. In that type of light, I still don't see much competition yet.

Still off topic...But concerning reflectors. One of the best mods I have done to date is have chop modify my KL1 with a Lux III and reflector. I like the output much better then the original KL1 but also better then the E2 stock MN03 lamp.

Back on topic: I did replace the cell on my VIP with a fresh Sanyo one but it didn't take much burn in for it to exhibit the double click ultra-dim syndrome again. A question for Charlie is that in ultra dim mode is the light even more efficient then in normal dim mode or is power wasted by support electronics in this ultra dim mode?


----------



## cue003 (Jun 6, 2004)

*Re: Shining Star...this is a sweet picture!*

Come on guys. I would think that there would be many beamshot comparos by now. I KNOW you guys gots lots of lights to compare to. Bring on the pics.


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## NeonLights (Jun 6, 2004)

*VIP, not EDC*

Well, after carrying and using my VIP for a day and a half I've come to a couple of conclusions. First, I like this light, overall it is a high quality light with several innovative features, and very good in the runtime and brightness departments. Second, it will likely never be an EDC light for me. In one day of carrying it in my jeans pocket and in the pocket of my sweatpants, more of the HA-III finish has come off of it than in a year of EDCing my ARC LSH-P (or numerous Surefires I carry on occasion). It isn't a big spot where the finish has worn through, but I can now see the bare aluminum in several small spots on three different ribs. I don't want to risk carrying it unprotected anymore, I'd like to keep it looking good.

It seems like the knurling is very susceptible to having the finish rub off if it comes in contact with any other metallic objects like keys, a leatherman, coins, or a pocket knife, things I also regularly carry in my pockets. I'm now wondering if smooth ribs rather than knurled ribs might not have been a better choice for overall finish durability? I think I'll keep the light, and maybe even accesorize it with some of the great stuff that is coming out, but to protect the finish, I'll need to carry it in a sheath, and I don't regularly EDC anything that is required to be in a sheath or case. I usually even carry my cell phone unprotected in a pocket.

I'm not overprotective of any of my lights, I buy them to use as tools, not just to decorate a shelf or show off. I do however like to keep my lights looking nice, and to do that with my VIP will require a sheath, probably a Ripoffs C0-30.

-Keith


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## Geode (Jun 6, 2004)

*VIP Anodizing*

[ QUOTE ]
*NeonLights said:*
Well, after carrying and using my VIP for a day and a half I've come to a couple of conclusions. First, I like this light, overall it is a high quality light with several innovative features, and very good in the runtime and brightness departments. Second, it will likely never be an EDC light for me. In one day of carrying it in my jeans pocket and in the pocket of my sweatpants, more of the HA-III finish has come off of it than in a year of EDCing my ARC LSH-P (or numerous Surefires I carry on occasion). It isn't a big spot where the finish has worn through, but I can now see the bare aluminum in several small spots on three different ribs. I don't want to risk carrying it unprotected anymore, I'd like to keep it looking good.

It seems like the knurling is very susceptible to having the finish rub off if it comes in contact with any other metallic objects like keys, a leatherman, coins, or a pocket knife, things I also regularly carry in my pockets. I'm now wondering if smooth ribs rather than knurled ribs might not have been a better choice for overall finish durability? I think I'll keep the light, and maybe even accesorize it with some of the great stuff that is coming out, but to protect the finish, I'll need to carry it in a sheath, and I don't regularly EDC anything that is required to be in a sheath or case. I usually even carry my cell phone unprotected in a pocket.

I'm not overprotective of any of my lights, I buy them to use as tools, not just to decorate a shelf or show off. I do however like to keep my lights looking nice, and to do that with my VIP will require a sheath, probably a Ripoffs C0-30.

-Keith 

[/ QUOTE ]

Interesting points about the anodization. Is it feasible to have a VIP re-anodized when/if the anodization wears off? If not, I guess I can keep it covered with ink from a Black Sharpie. Guess I could always paint it primer black too.

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif


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## milkyspit (Jun 6, 2004)

*Re: VIP Anodizing*

Guys, what about some sort of black enamel for touchup? My previous car came with a little sample size jar of black paint, including a tiny paintbrush built into the underside of the lid. That sort of thing might take care of minor anodizing damage pretty nicely! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thinking.gif


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## NeonLights (Jun 6, 2004)

*Re: VIP Anodizing*

Something else I just thought of, if I can find some black heat shrink tubing that is big enough, I could cover most of the exterior of the VIP with black heat shrink. Should protect it enough for pocket carry.

-Keith


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## Bullzeyebill (Jun 6, 2004)

*Re: VIP Anodizing*

HA-III should last years without rubbing off in normal wear and tear situations like in pocket with keys. Witness Arc and SureFire HA-III lights. They are really durable. You could chew up a MagLite with an HA-III Arc or SureFire. Must be something else going on. Anodize didn't take? I do know that integrety of anodize can be affected by impact, like dropping on concrete floor, etc. Strange.

Bill


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## Pi_is_blue (Jun 6, 2004)

*Re: VIP Anodizing*

It may be that the anodizing is not wearing off but metal from keys, etc. is scraping off onto the light. I thought there was a discussion about this awhile ago in one of the forums. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon3.gif


----------



## bwaites (Jun 6, 2004)

*Re: VIP Anodizing*

HA-III should NOT be flaking as you describe. Metal prep can play a part in it flaking off.

It will be interesting to see if someone else has this problem or if, for some reason, yours has a unique problem.

Bill


----------



## Mr Ted Bear (Jun 6, 2004)

*Re: VIP Anodizing*

Example of using heat shrink


----------



## Erik Johnson (Jun 6, 2004)

*Re: VIP Anodizing*

Keith,

Just watch the temperature. That 'condom' will prevent the fins from doing their job. I prefer empty pockets (as near as I can get), so one of those Ripoffs CO-30 sheaths sound about perfect. I removed the head off of my VIP to see what would be involved with replacing the optic with a reflector. Unfortunately, now my beam pattern is rather lopsided. That's OK since I have a reflector on order.

Erik.


----------



## cue003 (Jun 6, 2004)

*Re: VIP Anodizing*

I hope this HA III finish does not pose a problem for many others.


----------



## MR Bulk (Jun 7, 2004)

*Re: VIP Anodizing*

I am wondering if Neon's was a fluke. There were five or six VIP bodies that were pulled because of inadequate anodizing and the machine shop informed me of this, and had to replace them. However, given that the anodizing shop actually lost 19 dimmer knobs (they somehow dislodged from the suspension rack while in the anodizing solution and the CNC shop had to make up more and rush them to the anodizers) there may have been slipups in sorting out these anodized seconds (God how I hate that word, ever since I made those few SNII seconds I decided to Never sell seconds of anything ever again).

In any case I just sent a message to the CNC establishment (they are actually my vendor, and subcontract the plating work after they machine the parts) inquiring about this and I will post their response when I receive it.

If indeed a HA3 finish was applied as I ordered and paid for, I already know what the response will be -- that they deliver a properly prepared product and do not have control over how end users ultimately utilize or store or care for the finish. If one decides to have their VIP ride loose in the pocket with knives or keys or ball bearings or diamonds or all of these items then it is beyond the shop's control, and beyond mine as well.

NeonLights, I would be very keen to see your VIP, either in person as a return or at least see a picture of the finish since you will likely keep it anyway as you said in your post.

And now I must say/repeat a few things - again, I have no control over cosmetic issues. The lights will arrive as near perfect looks-wise as I have control over. If someone decides to carry his VIP with metal objects (keys or whatever) this is beyond my control.

As I am sure you all realize, due to the realities of simple physical attributes, any surface finish will be weaker along corners or sharp edges than along smooth areas and will wear more quickly. And unfortunately most of the VIP's body tube features an aggressive diamond-point knurling. I remind everyone that earlier I had posted that I actually preferred the smooth fins on the CNC prototype once I saw it, but the overwhelming response was for knurling (in fact I think I took a poll; it should still be in the VIP Thread early on) so in effect the buyers made this choice.

Additionally, please remember that this is really a hobby for me and that I am not Peter Gransee or SureFire or even Elektrolumens. I am not a business and due to economies of scale (or lack thereof) my costs on this project were
astronomical, eventually forcing me to bump up the price by $9 when all was accounted for despite my efforts to keep the price at $150. I made very little money on this project, and in fact based on time spent setting everything up initially to include development work and coordination of the different aspects that go into creating a new item from the ground up, I may have actually lost rather than gained anything.

I do what I do to help move flashlight technology forward and of course I enjoy putting the occasional feather in my cap for thinking of a new idea or somesuch. But any financial gain has been put back into this hobby. A new work shed, new solder station, buying the latest components/technologies for experimentation and development of even better lights, outbidding - yes, OUTBIDDING, it has come to that nowadays - others including even some small manufacturers so that we get the absolute best Luxeons available which enables the building of better brighter whiter lights for our beloved CPF'ers.

Again not to beat a dead horse, but what if somebody decided to carry their VIP with ball bearings or diamonds or rocks as an "experiment"? Even the true manufacturers will ignore "wear and tear", especially cosmetically if one decides to subject the exterior of a product to contact with metallic or otherwise hard objects.

And finally, those of you who feel this is an issue are welcome to refunds rather than have negative feelings about the VIP. This offer is extended to those whose lights have not yet been sent out.

Thank you for reading this wordy post. I hope in some obtuse way my position has come through loud and clear.


----------



## marcspar (Jun 7, 2004)

*Re: VIP Anodizing*

Charlie,

This was the first Monday I recall that I could not wait to get to my office, because I had hopes of finding a box from Hawaii in the mail from Saturday.

It was there! Even in the bright daylight, the throw on high is incredible for a single cell light.

My fit & finish is perfect, but I am sure that with all the use it will get, my VIP will wind up with some scratches or wear spots on the black finish - just part of the aging patina!

The light is too great an ilumination tool to sit on shelf looking pretty!

Thanks again to Charlie & the HAT team. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/bowdown.gif

Marc


----------



## Phil_B (Jun 7, 2004)

*Re: VIP Anodizing*

I look forward to knocking the crap out of my VIP as an EDC.But I haven't got it yet /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif.
Ah well... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif


----------



## Likebright (Jun 7, 2004)

*Re: VIP Anodizing*

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thinking.gifI think I will go out on a branch here a bit.
The VIP is a custom made light tenderly developed and assembled by Charlie and crew. It is not a production piece and can not be replaced. It should be treated with TLC and respect. You certainly don't have to coddle it but getting it a case and carrying it that way might be a good idea. Ripoff CO-30 or their model CO-63 for a little more class. EDC doesn’t have to mean grinding it up with the stuff in your pocket. Hook a lanyard on it and hang it from your belt into the pocket above all the fodder down below might work. Cut the little thing some slack and it should last for ever. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon3.gif

Mike


----------



## acusifu (Jun 7, 2004)

*Re: VIP Anodizing*

I would be happy to purchase any returns for cosmetic issues. I use my lights and am not concerned about anodized surface.


----------



## BC0311 (Jun 7, 2004)

*Re: VIP Anodizing*

My Blacky was a major hit with my vet group last night at our monthly poker night.

The bunker's doors and windows are wide open with a 24" fan blowing on high. Dadgum cigars, I don't care how much you spend on 'em, they all stink the next day. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon15.gif

I had to count my lights before I let anyone leave, I've never told this group, "mi casa es su casa". /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/yellowlaugh.gif

Anyways, they took three cells all the way down to strobing. I was offered $250 right on the spot for it. All of these guys are well acquainted with my flashaholism but appreciate it and don't make cracks about it, if I don't make cracks about their cigar smoking and having to drag trashcan liners full of beer bottles down to the dumpster after they leave.

One of them is a lurker here. He never posts though. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink2.gif 

Even pocket lining fabric and the plastic handles of a Swiss Army knife will eventually polish HA III anodizing from edges, corners and points. So will fingers with fine grime embedded in the skin.

Add brass, chrome plate, and high chromium content stainless steel to the mix and it will happen more rapidly. My theory is that the countless tiny impacts of hard objects against HAIII make microscopic dents underneath the hard finish. That subsequent impacts crack the finish and then constant abrasion eventually peels the cracked finish back. But, that's just my theory.

The "coin edge" knurling on those thin fins clued some of us that these shouldn't be carried in a pocket with the usual metal detritus. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/yellowlaugh.gif

I recommend a belt sheath. Others have already found some nylon or cordura sheaths that work well. Unless you use the lanyard hole along with a tether, it is likely this light will fall out of your pocket, just like any other flashlight, at sometime. 

In a discussion on CPF last fall concerning small, fine leather, belt sheaths to wear with slacks or business dress. (So one wouldn't have the lump in the pocket.) 

One poster replied: "I'd *never* wear a belt sheath with dress slacks!" LOL /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/yellowlaugh.gif 

Down here in Tejas, you can wear cowboy boots, cowboy belts and cell phones with a suit, and lots of us wear a handgun regularly, so the addition of a flashlight and leather sheath is no big deal. But I can understand where it wouldn't be fashionable with the wine sippers and Brie munchers at a Robert Mapplethorpe showing. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/nana.gif

What I do know is this, Charlie has impeccable integrity. He has taken great pains to make certain the VIP is the best he can make it for us. If there is a problem he can rectify, he will. 

For the black HA III finish on the VIP to come off that rapidly is very unusual. But, Charlie explained why that could be.

*I'll buy that VIP with the flaking anodizing right now for $150.00 Paypal cash transfer.* Just PM me soon.

I took a leather flashlight scabbard (no flap) and re-shrunk and boned it for my VIP Special. It works fine as my tactical light scabbard for CCW. Because of the knurling, the light is especially secure. I have to tug it to get it out.

Set on HIGH, with the stock optic, this is perfect for using with a handgun for low-light or no-light shooting. The secureness of the grip is the best I've felt yet. The tailcap allows alot of latitude for activation with any of the most popular grips.

The fraen throws a very practical slab of intensely bright light that is not only dazzling to look into and silhouettes perfectly the sights on your handgun, but also doesn't require the additional task of superimposing a smaller hotspot on the target. 

The drop-in reflector, BBH and BH are tools that make it a light with performance and versatility that isn't matched by any production or semi-production flashlight.

The converter Charlie put into the VIP is going to be desired by many modders and homebuilders of flashlights. 

Charlie has extended the frontier impressively with the VIP. But, even as I write this, his mind is busy cutting trails beyond that frontier.

I'm taking my Blacky to C.A. this week. I'll carry it tethered to a lanyard and riding in a zippered vest pocket, all by its lonesome.

Britt
Two winners that will earn their stripes on this trip:


----------



## raggie33 (Jun 7, 2004)

*Re: VIP Anodizing*

will take like a gang a people to get my vip away from me /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif


----------



## MR Bulk (Jun 7, 2004)

*Re: VIP Anodizing*

No time to write today, watching my kid (she's on break between school and summer - Fun!) as well as a trip to the post office(!) but *thanks to all* for the very reasonable comments which help bring this ship back to an even keel and restore some sanity and clarity of thinking regarding what we should expect when putting any finish covering into direct contact against things like *this guy* said so well:

[ QUOTE ]
Even pocket lining fabric and the plastic handles of a Swiss Army knife will eventually polish HA III anodizing from edges, corners and points. So will fingers with fine grime embedded in the skin. 

Add brass, chrome plate, and high chromium content stainless steel to the mix and it will happen more rapidly. My theory is that the countless tiny impacts of hard objects against HAIII make microscopic dents underneath the hard finish. The subsequent impacts crack the finish and then constant abrasion eventually peels the cracked finish back. But, that's just my theory. 

The "coin edge" knurling on those thin fins clued some of us that these shouldn't be carried in a pocket with the usual metal detritus.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks Britt!


----------



## mst3k (Jun 7, 2004)

*Re: VIP Anodizing*

One thing is for sure, I believe I could dunk my hands in wesson oil and still have a good grip on this puppy! Awesome lil light Charlie. I too get the Ultra-lo Easter Egg, but doesn't bother me at all. Very cool. On high it is amazing. Med will be my main setting. What a work of art! Charlie and the Hat team, you guys have outdone yourselves. Can't wait for all the accessories. I do have one already. I have the reflector that was offered in another thread by Anthony A. This little reflector rocks in the Vip I recommend it highly!


----------



## keithhr (Jun 7, 2004)

*Re: VIP Anodizing*

Charlie, I have both prototype and black HAIII. The prototype will probably be my edc in newly purchased ripoffs sheath and in fact will have no HA to be worn off. Everyone that has purchased a VIP should simply treat it as though it were a custom made knife. If you want no marks or wear or any indication that it was handled, treat it as such. If you want to use it as a tool, put it in your pocket as I do my firefly although with a special key holder made out of leather, put it in a sheath as I do mine, or put it in your pocket with keys and the like and let the chips fall where they may. I'm not sure what some peoples expectations are of a custom flashlight run. It sounds to me like some want to carry it in their pockets with keys and other hard metal objects and don't expect there to be any adverse consequences. Not possible I suspect. I plan on carrying both my VIP lights in a sheath and will take whatever comes as a result. I suspect MrBulk is getting very frustrated right now with the nature of these questions and I implore everyone to think about the nature of their posts before they post them. Charlie has put in an extraordinary amount of time and energy to come up with this bit of art housed in a body of light and textures and I think he is feeling a bit down at the moment with the questions being put to him. Any serious knife collectors out there with an opinion?


----------



## alanhuth (Jun 7, 2004)

*Re: VIP Anodizing*

I can't believe all the thought, effort, and time Charlie and his team have put into this light. To those of you who are complaining about the anodizing: do you guys have any idea how demoralizing it is to work that hard and then have somebody ***** and moan about piddling little details like the anodizing. Shut up! For the first week or so, at least, try to say something nice, ok? It was a herculean effort these guys did and we, without lifting a finger other than to send some money, are rewarded with far and away the most powerful single-cell light out there, and we're lucky to have it. If you think otherwise, I'm sure you can make a tidy profit on B/S/T (but PM me first - I'll take em all)


----------



## BuddTX (Jun 7, 2004)

*Re: VIP Anodizing*

Charlie,

My light arrived this weekend.

I am very very impressed. WOW!

GREAT GREAT GREAT JOB!

AND, Chops reflector really adds a nice finish, even nicer than the Fraen optic!

WHAT are you going to do next? (besides rest!)


----------



## darkgear.com (Jun 7, 2004)

*Re: VIP Anodizing*

[ QUOTE ]
*BuddTX said:*
WHAT are you going to do next? (besides rest!) 

[/ QUOTE ]

BLAH! No rest for the wicked. Bring on the next great Mr. Bulk creation already. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

As for anodizing. We all noticed small inconsistencies with the anodizing during the build parties. Most because there was no other way to suspend the part in the anodizing bath. Yet if you inspect certain parts closely some of the anodizing is the thickest I have ever seen on a light. 

For a custom light, conceived, produced and began delivery in less than 6 months. WOW! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/clap.gif

Best regards,
Randy


----------



## Josey (Jun 7, 2004)

*Re: VIP Anodizing*

Hey Charlie:

Awesome light!!!!

Really apprecitate the thought, pride, craftsmanship and the huge dose of your personal decency that you put into this beauty of a light.

I know you didn't do this to make money. You're a class act. Thanks.

Josey


----------



## Geode (Jun 7, 2004)

*Re: VIP Anodizing*

[ QUOTE ]
*keithhr said:*
Charlie, I have both prototype and black HAIII. The prototype will probably be my edc in newly purchased ripoffs sheath and in fact will have no HA to be worn off. Everyone that has purchased a VIP should simply treat it as though it were a custom made knife. If you want no marks or wear or any indication that it was handled, treat it as such. If you want to use it as a tool, put it in your pocket as I do my firefly although with a special key holder made out of leather, put it in a sheath as I do mine, or put it in your pocket with keys and the like and let the chips fall where they may. I'm not sure what some peoples expectations are of a custom flashlight run. It sounds to me like some want to carry it in their pockets with keys and other hard metal objects and don't expect there to be any adverse consequences. Not possible I suspect. I plan on carrying both my VIP lights in a sheath and will take whatever comes as a result. I suspect MrBulk is getting very frustrated right now with the nature of these questions and I implore everyone to think about the nature of their posts before they post them. Charlie has put in an extraordinary amount of time and energy to come up with this bit of art housed in a body of light and textures and I think he is feeling a bit down at the moment with the questions being put to him. Any serious knife collectors out there with an opinion? 

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know how "serious" of a knife collector I am, but I do have and use customs and expensive production knives (CRK). Yes, they do get character marks, but to me these are no problem. BTW, most custom folders start at 3-4 times what a VIP costs, so from a knife person's viewpoint, the VIP is very reasonably priced and should be used. Particularly when one thinks of the amount of energy and passion Charlie poured into the project.

Function over form.

There are a couple of customs that are for collecting only, and these see no pocket time. If that is the case with the VIP, then keep it pristeen and don't carry it.


----------



## Alan_L (Jun 7, 2004)

*Re: VIP Anodizing*

I got my VIP on Saturday here in California. Thanks to Mr Bulk for being creative and talented enough to make such a great light! This is the closest to a do-it-all light that I have!

Regarding the anodizing, from reading what others posted in CPF, I thought that HA3 would be tougher than anything that might rub against it in my pockets (keys, change, pocketknife, etc.). But after I carried my Surefire KL4+E1e combo around for a while, I noticed the anodizing was coming off at a few of the sharp edges of the light just from pocket carry. I learned that a HA3 coating is not as indestructable as I first thought.

On the subject of carrying the VIP out and about, how are other owners carrying theirs? Holsters? In the pocket? A McGizmo type belt attachment? One thing that I am a little worried about is that the dimmer knob might catch on something and break. I would have preferred something a little more low profile, but that's just me, since I plan on using it on medium most of the time and I have small fingers to adjust a smaller knob if there was one.


----------



## MR Bulk (Jun 7, 2004)

*Re: VIP Anodizing*

[ QUOTE ]
I thought that HA3 would be tougher than anything that might rub against it in my pockets (keys, change, pocketknife, etc.). But after I carried my Surefire KL4+E1e combo around for a while, I noticed the anodizing was coming off at a few of the sharp edges of the light just from pocket carry. I learned that a HA3 coating is not as indestructable as I first thought.


[/ QUOTE ]

A-hah! Thanks for sharing your hands-on experiences, Alan!


----------



## rick258 (Jun 7, 2004)

*Re: VIP Anodizing*

VIP finally arrived in Louisiana. When do I paypal for your next creation Charlie. No rest for the weary you know. THANKS for all your (and the HAT team's)hard work to bring this fabulous light to the CPF community. Rick


----------



## raggie33 (Jun 7, 2004)

*Re: VIP Anodizing*

woohoo it looks like we may have a little fog tonight.going to lake to play with lights.i love shineing them in fog bringing my new vip.cant wait for darn sun to go down.i hope the moon aint out i forgot to check


----------



## raggie33 (Jun 7, 2004)

*Re: VIP Anodizing*

just got back from lake cant say enough about this vip i navagted some tough terain with the light just on low i6tlighted my way clearly . i love to have the otion of low and even at low it has plenty of light. then i tryied medium and thought i went to far and clciked high. but it was medium great beam .high is just as i said before amazeing.id also love to add i like every thing about this light i cant ask for more.


----------



## neo_xeno (Jun 7, 2004)

*Re: VIP Anodizing*

heh raggie, i can tell u really like the light!


----------



## Bullzeyebill (Jun 7, 2004)

*Re: VIP Anodizing*

I carry my EDC lights in sheiths or holsters, particularly the more expensive ones. I even carry my mini-mag R2H, MM+, WO in a holster. Also minimizes scratches on lens. I am still learning about different finishes and I guess that they are not impervious to scratches and dings, particularly when the base metal (aluminum) is fairly soft as metals go. Protect your light!!

Bill


----------



## Bullzeyebill (Jun 7, 2004)

*Re: VIP Anodizing*

We're back.

Bill


----------



## mst3k (Jun 7, 2004)

*Re: VIP Anodizing*

Real world testing. Ok its nite now. I just went out on the balconey and was just shining my Vip around. I started with the Chop reflector. Nice, very nice, and when beaming it on a wall indoors, yes the spot is very round and smooth. The fraen, tho a bit square on the wall is much brighter at distance! I like em both, they are just different, thats all. Don't toss the fraen, is all Im saying. I love the way this feels in my hand. I can't seem to put it down. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif


Also I compared it to my Mclux with the fraen, both with fresh batteries. Both nice, but the Vip is noticably brighter at medium setting. At full there is no comparison.
No, Im not selling my Mclux, get over it! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/nana.gif


----------



## keithhr (Jun 7, 2004)

*Re: VIP Anodizing*

I have had my VIP prototype for a month now and all I can say is, it has pretty much ruined my lust for new lights. I have sold off lesser creations and now only own a few custom and semi custom lights(firefly, McLux PR 917,etc) with the only production lights being my Tigerlight and big Vector. this is a quote from my first impressions of this light from May 6.2004
" but for some reason this light makes one feel as if they should wax eloquent and try to convey with words that which is more of a feeling than anything else. If it was just a piece of hardware, my task would have been easier, and I believe Charlie has something here which would best be described as FLASHLIGHT ART!"


----------



## Justintoxicated (Jun 7, 2004)

*Re: VIP Anodizing*

Charlie, you got me man. I actualy smiled tonight. I took the Fraen out ASAP and put in chops reflector, MUCH BETTER. The Fraen showed color that I have only sceen in a Luxeon 1 before, there was yellow blotches and what not, Chops reflector took all the artifacts as well as distributed the color out much better, it's now whiter and Probably brighter than my SX1J (but the batts are down to 350ma so I'll need new batts for testing)in my 3C mag with reflector so thumbs up there. I can't wait for a BH now and maybe the BBH I just wish i would have paid for the BBH earlier because I don't have much $ right now.

My only complaint is that along the edge of my dimmer knob the Anno is missing, it looks like the flashlight or knob was dropped or something. but it does not seem to be flaking off or anything like that. 

is it possible to Re-Annodize something like the knob? I might be able to get it done cheap...


----------



## darkgear.com (Jun 8, 2004)

*Re: VIP Anodizing*

Justintoxicated,

The knob is one of those parts that I talked about. Such a small part has nearly no surface to rest on in the anodizing process. If this were a production light, a special jig would have to made to hold the part while anodizing. Without this the plating subcontractor simply did the best they could with such a small part. All of these parts were looked at carefully and I think besides the missing black color it will not affect the rest if the anodizing or cause any flaking. If you wanted the knob redone, you would have to strip the old anodizing off first and then get a plater to re-anodize.

I am sorry your light was not perfect. Belive me, no one felt worse about not having perfect parts than Charlie. Considering this being a single run light and probably never to be produced again, I think it went better than could even be expected.

Best regards,
Randy


----------



## Josey (Jun 8, 2004)

*Re: VIP Anodizing*

My Arc AAA hangs on my keychain, with the keys inside my pocket and the Arc outside. The HA3 finish on the ARC head is almost all gone, not that I care in the least.

What really counts is that it just got dark. The VIP is one serious light. Brighter than my Arc 4, which I love. Brighter than my L4, at least for throw. Brighter than my TigerLi... OK, I'm getting carried away.

You da man, Charlie. No, you da Mod.


----------



## Justintoxicated (Jun 8, 2004)

*Re: VIP Anodizing*

Ok thanks thats not really worth it then. not like I want a refund haha, after I dropped in the Chop reflector it became instant high-tech classic


----------



## MR Bulk (Jun 8, 2004)

*Re: VIP Anodizing*

[ QUOTE ]
*mst3k said:*
Real world testing. Ok its nite now. I just went out on the balconey and was just shining my Vip around. I started with the Chop reflector. Nice, very nice, and when beaming it on a wall indoors, yes the spot is very round and smooth. *The fraen, tho a bit square on the wall is much brighter at distance!* I like em both, they are just different, thats all. Don't toss the fraen, is all Im saying. 

[/ QUOTE ]


Hmmm, I was thinking of doing something, but now must think some more.

And Raggie, thanks for your continuing stream of posts about liking the VIP. Warms my heart. In fact thanks to all!


----------



## MR Bulk (Jun 8, 2004)

*Re: VIP Anodizing*

Justintox,

Did not see this new page of posts (have mine set to 50 posts per page). Sorry to hear of the switch, just like Darky said it is a hard part to anodize, and yes the "instant anodize" (black Sharpie) will work wonders.

Hope the rest of the issues in your life turn around for you. I do know that if one stays put and rides it out without taking any rash actions, things change _all around you_. Almost always for the better. Good luck.


----------



## Mr. Blue (Jun 8, 2004)

*Re: VIP Anodizing*

So, the reflector smooths out AND spreads out the beam and shortens throw a bit?

Charlie, I am amazed. Medium is astonishing, and to think I have that much light for a couple hours give or take is tickling my heart. Low is where my Arc4 low is set, but the VIP still has more light. Havent put high to the test. Good job TEAM.


----------



## d'mo (Jun 8, 2004)

*Re: VIP Anodizing*

Last night, I compared my VIP to my PT Surge. On high, the VIP can definitely hold its own for short distances. Truly impressive! Can't wait for the BH and BBH. This will me the only light needed for me and will be absolutely tops for camping!!! 

Hat's off to Charlie and the Hat team!!! Bravo!!!


----------



## Phil_B (Jun 8, 2004)

*Re: VIP Anodizing*

THE VIP HITS THE UK !!!
Just opened the [package and I'm already VERY impressed. I'm a machinist by trade so I'm in a position to judge the high quality work.
Absolutely outstanding. To those buying to collect,and worring about the anodising,I would ask myself why I bought one in the first place.It reminds me of the folks who buy old motorcycles,take the oil out and sit them in the garage looking real rideable. 
These are lights that DEMAND to be used and earn their living.
Tremendous work just to make one,but 300!!! WOW.
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/bowdown.gif Phil.


----------



## BC0311 (Jun 8, 2004)

*Re: VIP Anodizing*

Here are two of Roy's runtime plots comparing the VIP on medium output and Mr. Bulk's Super Baby Pin.

I have both and can tell the difference in output shining them on a wall. The VIP on Medium appears a bit less intense, but outdoors I can't really tell the difference. 

Look at that plateau of regulation for the VIP, simply outstanding. Just under 3.5 hours! 

VIP on Medium setting:






SBP:


----------



## neo_xeno (Jun 8, 2004)

*Re: VIP Anodizing*

wow, that's awesome, super baby pin performance with over 4 times the amount of runtime.


----------



## NeonLights (Jun 8, 2004)

*Re: VIP discussion*

To all those harping about the anodizing issue. I thought Charlie wanted to be kept informed of any issues with the VIP's. Some people keep reading a lot into my comments. For the record: I didn't buy a VIP to sit a shelf and look pretty. Frankly I have better looking lights IMO. I bought my VIP to use, and knowing it has HA-III anodizing, I had certain expectations to the finish's durability. Those expectations were based on a year and a half with HA-III lights from three different manufacturers, ARC, Surefire, and Inova (the CC X5). I tried scraping the HA-III finish on my CountyComm Inova X5 with a sharp knife. With reasonable force I couldn't scratch it. No way I'm trying that with my VIP.

Just because I expect to use something on a very frequent basis, doesn't mean I don't want to keep it looking nice. I've driven the same car daily for over eight years, I bought it new, I use it hard (I race it several times a month), but it still looks great after eight years of use. I have a lot of tools that I use frequently, I take care of them, and they still look good after many years.

Overall I'm happy with this light, and I'm not planning on returning it or selling it. I will have to change how I use it and carry it though since it doesn't have the advantage of some other HA-III lights (mainly SF) that replacement body parts are readily and inexpensively available.

Since this is the VIP discussion thread (or is it the VIP: flowery praise only thread?) I though I would bring up an issue or two I had to discuss. I'm glad most of the VIP owners are overjoyed with their lights and appear to have reached Nirvana and feel they'll never need another light again. I'm not quite there.


----------



## Erik Johnson (Jun 8, 2004)

*Re: VIP discussion*

I currently have no complaints. I also fully agree with NeonLights. If there IS an anodizing problem (I don't know yet if there is), then Charlie needs to know so that he can inform his machine shop in order to get better results for future projects.

Low and Medium levels truly amaze me on this light. Low provides so very much useful light for extended runtimes. And the large amount of light at medium level for over 3 hours on SF battery is just stunning.

Fraen re-alignment question. Would rotating my fraen help even out the pattern (right now it is square on one side and round on the other). I removed the fraen out of curiosity. The beam pattern was much more regular (square all around) when I received the light.

Erik.


----------



## mst3k (Jun 8, 2004)

*Re: VIP discussion*

I would imagine that the extra square in the pattern is the little tab on the Fraen itself. Doesn't bother me but you could probably remove the tab if you are very careful.


----------



## BC0311 (Jun 8, 2004)

*Re: VIP discussion*

"Harping"? Hardly. 

I posted in response to your rather alarming post to warn others about throwing this light in with a pocket full of keys and other objects.

Sorry for offending you with my offer to buy yours.

[ QUOTE ]
Since this is the VIP discussion thread (or is it the VIP: flowery praise only thread?)...

[/ QUOTE ]

"Flowery praise only thread?" Not hardly. Your opinions were noted by many and addressed. You can't blame people for being happy and excited with their VIPs.

[ QUOTE ]
I'm glad most of the VIP owners are overjoyed with their lights and appear to have reached Nirvana and feel they'll never need another light again. I'm not quite there. 

[/ QUOTE ]

Awww, that's what alot of us say when we get a new, cool light. Then another new, cool light comes along. No harm in experiencing a little photon-nirvana for a little while.

Keep up your search for the perfect EDC with a finish that will "last for years" while it bangs around in your pocket with keys and such.

My McL1 is showing wear on corners, edges and points (knurling) and it is only 6 months old and is carried exclusively in a lined leather sheath.

I'd like to see some good photos of the problem spots on your VIP. I'm sure Charlie would too.

Britt


----------



## NeonLights (Jun 8, 2004)

*Re: VIP discussion*

BC0311, I wasn't addressing you in particular, in fact, I didn't even rember your post specifically as it addressed anything I said. You didn't offend me in any way. I do remember one post that suggested that those of us with concerns with our VIP's "shut up" and I though that was rather uncalled for. I just looked at your post, in reference to your offer to buy my light, the HA finish isn't flaking, never said it was, I said it rubbed off in a couple of small places. Very big difference. I'm not blaming anyone for being happy with their VIP's. I'm happy with mine. I just think a lot of people should be a little more open to accepting criticism and concerns that are posted, instead of throwing subtle (and not so subtle) barbs at those who post them.

FWIW, I'm still very happy with my current EDC lights, and they are as close to perfect (for my needs) as I've found to date. ARC LSH-P with twisty pack in my pocket and ARC AAA-P on a Berkley Point mini-clip on a titanium chain around my neck. Last night I went outside, turned our big security light off, and compared my current EDC lights with the VIP. The ARC AAA puts out a little bit less light than the VIP on ultra-dim mode, and the LSH-P output seems to be about half way in-between the dim and medium settings on the VIP. The VIP's light is slightly whiter than my ARC LSH-P and noticeable whiter than my ARC AAA-P.

-Keith


----------



## Elnath (Jun 8, 2004)

*Re: VIP discussion*

I finally got a chance to USE my VIP to shed some light on a water problem we had last night. It worked great. I must admit to being more pleased with the beam from the reflector version than the original optics, but overall the design is fantastic.

Functionally I couldn't ask for anything more...I wish the intensity switch was a little less "sharp" so it was more comfortable to hold, but I think if it was it might be difficult to operate, so this is probably a good compromise. I my paint a little black rubber onto the switch knob to cushion it.

Great work Charlie (and company...)!


----------



## Zymurgy (Jun 8, 2004)

I am now the (VERY) proud owner of three (3 [I can't believe it!]) Mr. Bulk creations (I just cannot bring myself to call them just "flashlights").

People, listen up!! I own a "Super Long Gun Illuminator" a "Super Baby PIN" AND NOW a "VIP". How good does it get?

First (and I mean "first") impressions!

The VIP is "bigger" than I "imagined". For some reason, I thought that "it" would be smaller!!! (must be my SBP experience).

"Low" power.....at first look, I thought that it could have been "brighter". Charlie had the last laugh of course (as I am sure that he usually does) when I took the "Latest Mr. Bulk creation" into the woods with my dogs for their usual late night walk. The low setting on the VIP defines the word "adequate". Amazingly, it defines the word "adequate" for 40 HOURS OF CONTINUOUS RUNTIME!!!!!

Medium.....SBP equivalent brightness!!! AND FOR 4 HOURS AND 30 MINUTES!!! How the H%*@ did Charlie accomplish this????????

High.....Appears equivalent to my XM-2. (The XM-2 requires 2 CR123's to be as bright as it is!!!!)

Design.....I really cannot catogorize it. "Futuristic Retro??? I know that it is really nice to "LOOK" at.

It "works" really well (just as Charlie stated that it would).

When my wife of 42 years asked me what it cost, I asked her to guess. After a whole bunch of incorrect guesses, I told her what I paid. She informed me that I should see a Doctor.

I told her that I bought the "flashlight" from a Doctor, "Dr. BULK".

Thanx Charlie
Thanx to all helping Charlie out.
It certainly was worth it to me!!!!!!!

Zymurgy /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/clap.gif


----------



## x-ray (Jun 8, 2004)

"Dr Bulk" I like it /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbsup.gif

Better order some more meds, I seem to be addicted /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif


----------



## Justintoxicated (Jun 8, 2004)

*Re: VIP Anodizing*

[ QUOTE ]
*Mr. Blue said:*
So, the reflector smooths out AND spreads out the beam and shortens throw a bit?

Charlie, I am amazed. Medium is astonishing, and to think I have that much light for a couple hours give or take is tickling my heart. Low is where my Arc4 low is set, but the VIP still has more light. Havent put high to the test. Good job TEAM. 

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know if it shortens the throw, I believe it may be a little more efficient so the spill light created + a slightly smaller hotspot, might end up throwing about the same. I like the reflector alot better though myself. the BH looks like it makes a slightly smaller Hotspot still some sidespaill, and the BBH looks like nothing buy a vey small hotspot, probably about the same brightness as a 3D/C magmod with the same bin LED only only I'm not sure if there is any sidespill like there is with the Mag mod. I really wish I could continue to buy every accessory for the VIP. I like the cliky kroll, but i'm tempted to shorten it more witht he twisty, however I'd probably rather get a BBH, although the light does look kinda silly with it . I know I'm going to shoot myself later for not getting every accessory like I planned, but what can ya do when there tons of accessories and a limited budget. Maybe I can sell my 3C mag or something.

Fraen optics are a ***** to center, mine already has the Tab removed (very nicely removed I might add). But when i got mine I had to adjust it a bit by twisting the cap untill it re-centered. Although the reflector is smaller it centers perfectly every time. I eventualy put the O-ring in also to stop it from falling out when removing the head like the Fraen does. The only thing with the reflector is I can't line the inside of the head with white paint and then glowpowder like I origionally planned! Quick someone do it!


----------



## ledaholic (Jun 8, 2004)

Anyone know if rechargeable 123's will work in the VIP?


----------



## Kiessling (Jun 8, 2004)

no they don't according to Charlie.
bernhard


----------



## ledaholic (Jun 8, 2004)

Thanks


----------



## milkyspit (Jun 8, 2004)

*Re: VIP Anodizing*

[ QUOTE ]
*Justintoxicated said:*
Charlie, you got me man. I actualy smiled tonight. I took the Fraen out ASAP and put in chops reflector, MUCH BETTER. The Fraen showed color that I have only sceen in a Luxeon 1 before, there was yellow blotches and what not, Chops reflector took all the artifacts as well as distributed the color out much better, it's now whiter and Probably brighter than my SX1J (but the batts are down to 350ma so I'll need new batts for testing)in my 3C mag with reflector so thumbs up there. I can't wait for a BH now and maybe the BBH I just wish i would have paid for the BBH earlier because I don't have much $ right now.

My only complaint is that along the edge of my dimmer knob the Anno is missing, it looks like the flashlight or knob was dropped or something. but it does not seem to be flaking off or anything like that. 

is it possible to Re-Annodize something like the knob? I might be able to get it done cheap... 

[/ QUOTE ]

Justintox, smiles are good! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif Or as my mom used to say, change the outside and the inside'll change too! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Regarding the knob, mine was missing some anodizing along one edge as well. I did the Sharpie marker thing along that edge and so far it's held up fine. I find that I actually move the knob with pressure at the CORNERS, if that makes any sense, so the part that got Sharpie'd doesn't receive much wear. Plus it's always easy to reapply! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Anyway, hope that helps.


----------



## FlashlightOCD (Jun 8, 2004)

*Re: VIP Anodizing*

[ QUOTE ]
*milkyspit said:*
Regarding the knob, mine was missing some anodizing along one edge as well.

[/ QUOTE ]

Looks like a trend here ... mine is also missing a little anodizing along one side [edge] of the knob ... not enough to worry about, maybe something to do with the way the anodizing process was done?

Edit: I see from a few pages back that someone confirmed the small anodizing flaw on the knob is because of the way the anodizing was done on this tiny part.

Yes, I do normally read things backwards.


----------



## Psychomodo (Jun 8, 2004)

*Re: VIP Anodizing*

OK - time to show my ignorance here /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif

What is a "Sharpie" and where do I get one (UK!) /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif


----------



## darkgear.com (Jun 8, 2004)

*Re: VIP Anodizing*

Sharpie = Pen-type Permanent Marker. 

http://www.sharpie.com

Available at any office supply store in the USA.


----------



## geepondy (Jun 8, 2004)

*Re: VIP Anodizing*

Surely applying with a felt type permanent marker is temporary at best? Even with a Sharpie. Never tried it but I can't see it holding up to usage that wears off HA finish.


----------



## NeonLights (Jun 8, 2004)

*Re: VIP Anodizing*

[ QUOTE ]
*geepondy said:*
Surely applying with a felt type permanent marker is temporary at best? Even with a Sharpie. Never tried it but I can't see it holding up to usage that wears off HA finish. 

[/ QUOTE ]

Temporary? In my case yes and no. I had two small marks of missing anodizing on my switch. One was at the very top and will be susceptible to rubbing off easily with use, the other was in the middle of one side of the switch, actually a tiny hole that I could feel with a fingernail. Once I got the Sharpie ink down into that small hole, it seemed to stay a little better. Since I have a black car, I also have black touch-up paint around, I may try some of that for a more (semi)permanent fix.

-Keith


----------



## Justintoxicated (Jun 8, 2004)

*Re: VIP Anodizing*

sharpie already wore off mine, mine is missing the annodize about 1/2way down one side of the switch, but only at the top...Probebly rubs off to fast there oh well...Having lots of fun using this light anyways


----------



## gadget_lover (Jun 8, 2004)

*Re: VIP Anodizing*

I used a sharpie to cover the cigarette logo on a sollitair that I used to edc. The logo was laser etched in the annodization. I had to re-apply the sharpie every few months.

It was important to cover the brand name because I'd quit smoking and needed very little in the way of an excuse to start smoking again. Out of sight was truely out of mind.

My VIP's switch had a very small mark, smaller than the one on the tailcap of my ARC LSH-P. I hit it with the sharpie and paid it no further attention.

Daniel


----------



## BC0311 (Jun 8, 2004)

*Re: VIP Anodizing*

I just noticed a product on endeavour's thread: LS Mod progress  

Birchwood Casey Aluminum Black. Might be good for touch ups on the VIP as well as other black anodized flashlights.

Britt


----------



## GJW (Jun 8, 2004)

*Re: VIP Anodizing*

Here's my experience with the Aluminum Black.


----------



## Mr. Blue (Jun 9, 2004)

*Re: VIP Anodizing*

Justintoxicated: Thanks.
Why put the 0 ring on to keep the reflector in if you are not taking the head off? Does it rattle without it?


----------



## 83Venture (Jun 9, 2004)

*Re: VIP Anodizing*

I have seen run-time estimates on Hi-Med-Low but does anyone have an Idea how long it will run on Ultralow? It seems to be less than half the output of standard low which is rated at 40+ hours so I am guessing at 80+ hours. 

Last night I tried the Fuji film container trick that is used with the CMG Ultra, worked fine. Good candle mode nightlight. Love being able to stand the VIP on the tail. The ability to do this is becomming more important in an EDC for me.


----------



## Justintoxicated (Jun 10, 2004)

*Re: VIP Anodizing*

Mr Blue:I dunno no point I guess...

I think my VIP might be broken...

I now realize my VIP has 4 or 5 brightness levels. Low only works sometimes; it is so low the light is not useful, other times it is much less bright than medium but still very usefull light. So I guess I can really only use High and Medium, low is very unpredictable.

I also noticed that when I put in a new Battery low works as expected. But I plan to use low on Older Batteries...
The Battery which Low will not function with, still works fine for medium and high settings, but it takes a new Battery to get Low to work! WTF?


----------



## Mr. Blue (Jun 10, 2004)

*Re: VIP Anodizing*

Justintoxicated....I may help you here.
In this thread a few pages back or in the other thread, Charlie mentioned this situation. From what I gather, it is a circuitry thing. When you switch from med or hi to low, the circuit senses it is underload and somehow represses current. From low to any other higher step, the sensing circuit senses "no" load and you are ok. Charlie said it wasnt a defect, but rather an artifact of design...my words. Dont despair. hth.


----------



## MR Bulk (Jun 10, 2004)

*Re: VIP Anodizing*

Justintox, what Mr. Blue said. However on your other comment, please bear in mind that the VIP is not designed to "use up" your old batteries, in fact just the opposite, with something like a Milky Candle being best for that purpose. But if you keep the switch on Low with a weak battery and use it that way until the VIP no longer lights up, you would be missing out on the other two levels with a fresh battery. An Arc AAA or Dorcy 1AA or similar might be better for that. In fact you just *may* have bought the wrong tool here for your intended purpose - if so, please contact me privately about reversing your transaction.


----------



## geepondy (Jun 10, 2004)

*Re: VIP Anodizing*

I too, hope to hear more comments as users get more familiar with their lights as to the operation in low mode. So far in real life applications, low mode suits my needs in total dark situations nearly 100 percent of the time and no, IMO, I don't think a keychain AAA or AA light is a suitable equivalent because they are much dimmer then the VIP in low mode. Thus far I have found that if the light engages ok in low mode, it stays at that level if the switch is not changed, meaning it doesn't switch to bypass super dim mode on it's own. I don't expect the light to work on nearly completely exhausted batteries but I do hope it will engage in the proper low mode for the bulk of the batterie's life. I think for my next experiment I am going to run the light in medium mode until it goes out of regulation, let the battery rest for a spell and then see if it will still engage in low mode, not super low mode.


----------



## Roy (Jun 10, 2004)

Well....I finally finished doing runtime plots on the VIP! The plots are in the Reviews Forum. The runtime on low power is unreal....68 hours! I stopped the low power runtime plot at 71 hours and it was still putting out 19Fc @ 1Ft!!!


----------



## McGizmo (Jun 10, 2004)

And the winner of the Baja 500 of runtimes goes to our own Roy driving a Mr. Bulk VIP! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbsup.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Inqusitive minds want to know, do you guys have any plans for Le Mans? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif


----------



## Justintoxicated (Jun 10, 2004)

Not exactly what I meant...

Even when I switch it on while the swich is on low it only sometimes lights up correctly, while the other 2 levels were working....Right now I guess it needs a new Battery because it only works on medium while low and high do not function at all. Charlie again I don't want a refund I'm just confused. It is still my best flashlight /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/twakfl.gif it just amazes me that the light will actualy cut out on low before it cuts out on Med or even high. So I do feel it exhausts the battees well IMO, but I just found it odd.

I just origionaly thought the idea was that you use it on medium, switch to high when needed untill it flashes, then if your stranded out in the woods, you can switch it to low untill it dies. it seems after a while on low mine may possibly only work on medium. But I am not too worried because I hardly ever go camping in the woods 

Still have not sceen it flash at me. Is it really supposed to flash when the battery is too drained for high? Mine just seems to go dim on high, and gets brighter when you switch it to medium????


----------



## Aten_Imago (Jun 10, 2004)

I can't decide whether to post here in sync with you guys or just shut up and get the eval done. .....Looks like shut up won. Please look for it later tomorrow.
Thanks.
AI


----------



## Erik Johnson (Jun 10, 2004)

Justintoxicated, when you try low and you get dim-low, is it from a fully rested state (meaning previously off for a few seconds)? It is pretty easy to enter the dim-low mode by very briefly letting go of the kroll momentary, and pressing it on again. If you do a full click from a rested state (full meaning straight to the lock-on position) and get dim-low, then that would be very telling.

At first I was a little worried because this dim-low would turn on quite often, but it turned out to be only after the light was briefly turned off first. Give it a few seconds rest, and it SHOULD start on proper low.

Erik.


----------



## Kiessling (Jun 10, 2004)

strange.
my VIP goes in dim-low when using the knob turning from med to low, and it dies so almost 100% of the time. when I click it off and on again, it is in regular low.
???
bernhard


----------



## Erik Johnson (Jun 10, 2004)

Yes Bernhard, the method of switching from med to low while on, was the first method discovered for entering dim-low level. The second method found was to very briefly turn off the VIP while in low mode and turning it back on (easiest using momentary-on). Note, the 'double-click' method is a special case of the second method.

Erik.


----------



## MR Bulk (Jun 10, 2004)

Just to clear things up about this Dim-Low mode, bear in mind that this is an "inadvertent" feature and cannot be reliably duplicated in most VIPs, especially with a fresh battery.

Due to the hard pull of this circuit on the battery supply with the VIP on High, according to my EEs' own tests with a reasonably fresh 123 there is an average draw of ~1200mA(!) with most 123 batteries. The current draw will go even higher as the cell voltage drops as the battery discharges - theoretically it can go as high as _*1600mA*_ when the cell voltage drops to 2V. This is why the light is so bright on High, as it is pumping close to an amp _directly to the LED._

But a High-Performance Dimmable Anything does not come without trade-offs. Thus with a partially spent battery some anomalies can crop up (for example Dim-Low) as I do not believe there is another circuit available right now that can pull out this kind of current from a single CR123, yet be dimmed to two other different levels.

Some comments from my EEs about switching regulators with Luxeon style LED loads:

_The switcher (as all boost switchers) mostly requires constant power (Watts input) from the battery to provide constant current to the load (LED). Of course the efficiency of the switcher drops as the input voltage drops away from the output voltage requirement, so in reality it requires a certain power level which slowly increases as the input voltage drops._

Further comments to a battery mfr. who is now asking specifically about the VIP in order to fine tune their future products for this type of circuit:

_In tuning the battery chemistry for switching regulators the goal should be to provide the highest possible cell voltage under load. This means that the switching regulator will draw less current from the battery. The worst case currents will be seen with boost switchers since they will draw more current than is being provided to the load (since they have to boost the voltage) and that current will increase as the input voltage decreases. The boost converter will also be less efficient as the input voltage drops.

To keep the cell voltage under load as flat as possible means a reduction in internal resistance. 

One further observation:

At these high battery currents of around 1.2Amps or higher, the 123 cells get appreciably warm and their output voltage actually rises initially due to the enhanced chemical reaction at higher temperatures. Presumably the internal resistance of the cell is also much reduced at these higher temperatures._

Hopefuly this little insight provides some background and understanding into just how much development was put into the VIP circuit. It does Not use the new Texas Instrument chip as some of you have asked privately (difficult to stabilize for one steady output at these levels, let alone anything dimmable), nor the LT1618 nor anything Zetex related. It is a new circuit.

For a new ball game.

And it will be further developed to do better things in a different format later this summer.

Stay tuned. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/naughty.gif


----------



## Jakpro (Jun 10, 2004)

My VIP arrived today!

Carlie, you numma won! I loved the Space Needle, the LGI, the Super LGI, the Nexneedle, and now my precious-VIP.

You and the team did a great job on this project-impressive, most impressive. 

I would come to Hawaii and give you a great big hug and a kiss /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/bowdown.gif ,but lucky for you, I can't stand humidity! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Seriously, it is as perfect as I have come to expect from MR BULK!

Thanks, Daniel


----------



## MR Bulk (Jun 10, 2004)

Hmmm, a hug and kiss from - _Daniel?_

What can I offer you in return - for *Not* doing it???!!! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif


----------



## Clifton Arnold (Jun 10, 2004)

Hello charlie Just a note to let you know that I received my VIP today in the mail. I took it out of the package and I have to say you built a winner in my book. I finally have a mr Bulk light of my own now.


----------



## Pi_is_blue (Jun 10, 2004)

Can we preorder this mysterious new light yet? If so I'm in. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbsup.gif


----------



## D-LIGHT (Jun 10, 2004)

Here I sit with "the last light anyone will ever need" as Charlie described it in his introduction to the VIP. It certainly lives up to its billing. My only problem is I have a few thousand dollars worth of lights that are now relegated to toy status. I will keep them and play with them, but when it's time for serious stuff, I'll grab the VIP. This will be even more true when the BBH and other accessories arrive.
I've tested the anodizing already. I went to retrieve an item from my vehicle and promptly dropped the VIP on the street. Expecting the usual dings and scratches, I examined the VIP and found absolutely no marks. It's tough.
I think we're going to be talking about this light for a long time.
Thanks Charlie and the rest of the team. First class.
Dennis


----------



## batterystation (Jun 10, 2004)

I must post that I absolutely love my VIP as well. Very good work Charlie!!! Also a battery note. As this thing draws so much current, it has brought to light (no pun intended) a matter also ran into with a Navy device that strobed the batteries. 

A few months ago our batteries were slightly improved for what has been refered to as "flash amps" in other threads. The 03-2004 and newer lot numbers of batteries work considerably better in the VIP than earlier dates. It is not a capacity issue as much as a chemical reaction time issue. I think Cobolt Solution was what they said has been added to improve current availability on demand. 

Sorry to ramble and hijack, just wanted everyone to know this. This light is amazing. It blows everything else I have away. As stated earlier, it reduces all the other lights to toy status. Don't tell my kids that though, they will want all of them.


----------



## raggie33 (Jun 10, 2004)

its the best..i love my vip it brings me so much joy


----------



## Bullzeyebill (Jun 11, 2004)

Great, improved CR123 batteries! If they improve them further then we are really going to get 3+ volts on demand, and we are going to have to be careful using them in some applications when they do not sag under load. This is good.

Bill


----------



## Pi_is_blue (Jun 11, 2004)

I got my VIP earlier today and finally got to test it after dark. This light is awesome! On high it matches my E2e for throw and has a larger hotspot. Low seems to be just about perfect for walking around my house in the dark. I think I might need another VIP for backup! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbsup.gif


----------



## led_replacement (Jun 11, 2004)

Great Review and photos! Thanks for bringing it for us to see!


----------



## Justintoxicated (Jun 11, 2004)

[ QUOTE ]
*Erik Johnson said:*
Justintoxicated, when you try low and you get dim-low, is it from a fully rested state (meaning previously off for a few seconds)? It is pretty easy to enter the dim-low mode by very briefly letting go of the kroll momentary, and pressing it on again. If you do a full click from a rested state (full meaning straight to the lock-on position) and get dim-low, then that would be very telling.

At first I was a little worried because this dim-low would turn on quite often, but it turned out to be only after the light was briefly turned off first. Give it a few seconds rest, and it SHOULD start on proper low.

Erik. 

[/ QUOTE ]

It seems really random to me, after at first it goes on and off (low-low high-low )with every other click, then after I do that for a couple seconds it stays on Dim-low, then after about a minute it will come back, and if I rememebr to fully click when it does it will stay that way, but usualy I do it too fast and end up having to 1/2 click the kroll many times 20-30, before I get it. but that was last night after some use, letting it rest for an hour and then use again...

Right now I can't even get a dim low, all I have is a fading medium, if I turn it on at low, med or high it all looks the same, I think the battery is shot but it is still providing above low powered usefull light. but the dimming switch is useless.

I let it rest a while went and got food and click it on low it seems to work now, but it was not working when i did this earlier. As Charlie said the circuit is probably not perfect, and god knows where the battery that came in the VIP has been! haha.

Also I AM NOT COMPLAINING, this is still my best flashlight, and the only one I have ever paid good money for. I used the depleated battery to fix my ATV tongiht because it is still bright enough and brighter than low. I switched it to all settings while in use before this problem so maybe that screwed with the battery I do not know, and won't untill I put a new Battery Station 123 in.

I do have a Q. Is the VIP supposed to knda click in between levels with the switch? I kinda just have to eyeball mine, I can kinda almost feel it change positions but not quite. its definately made for 2 handed use (the dimmer switch) but it is not nearly as bad as I thought it might be. Exceeded my expectations... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbsup.gif

I really want a BBH and only have untill tomarrow to order one /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif I REALLY want it but I think I may need to save some money for picking up chicks and what not...or more alcahol...or maybe paying my bills...then again I onlt have 1 shot at this, and the twisty and the add on pack and especialy the BH! I really really really can't wait for the BH, the BBH is too big for practical use but so amazingly nice (from the pictures and description). Hopefully I will win the Lottery tomarrow and the next day then I can both eat and get accessories /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grinser2.gif


----------



## MR Bulk (Jun 11, 2004)

I didn't want to talk about batteries but I am glad Kevin (BatteryStation) chimed in. I included BatteryStation 123s (and a few older model, un-branded DP 123s also from BatteryStation; a few lucky people got one of the handful of SureFires/Duracells I still had left) to kinda help him advertise (he gave me a helluva dealer's cost price), but they were all dated 01-2004. They run great in most every other application I've tried (and I've bought and used hundreds of these, before the VIP was even the proverbial incandescent lightbulb over my head) but as you can see in my prior post quoting my EEs, this circuit really needs a high-performance battery. The redeveloped 03-2004-and-after dated BatteryStation 123s should be fine (as well as the mainstream "name-brand" high-performace 123s), but I just don't have any (yet).

Justintoxicated, it sounds like you are still using the original battery that came with yours (and all VIPs are tested prior to shipment so your battery was not absolutely new to begin with). If you would kindly try a new battery before posting about the next weird behavior, I would appreciate it.


----------



## MR Bulk (Jun 11, 2004)

Oh yeah and Pi, that one is still a lightbulb over my head (although it has since descended into my consciousness) so you gotta wait till it hits the drawing board (although we've planned extensively and there is indeed already a prototype of the new board in existence and undergoing tests as I write this)...

Hey D-Light, I'll help you out by taking those other lights offa you hands - /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/naughty.gif


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## MR Bulk (Jun 11, 2004)

[ QUOTE ]
*D-LIGHT said:*
I went to retrieve an item from my vehicle and promptly dropped the VIP on the street. Expecting the usual dings and scratches, I examined the VIP and found absolutely no marks. It's tough.
I think we're going to be talking about this light for a long time.
Thanks Charlie and the rest of the team. First class.
Dennis 

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks D-light for reminding me about something -- during the frenetic HAT build events we would occasionally drop a part now and then on my bare concrete patio floor (by accident of course), and after wiping away the chipped CEMENT DUST from the part, we would all gather around the offending HAT member to discover there was no damage done.


----------



## westfork (Jun 11, 2004)

Thanks for the amazing light Charlie, it easily surpassed all my expectations. Have already used it in applications where I'd thought only my tigerlight was adequate. Can't wait for the BH.
Lloyd


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## avusblue (Jun 11, 2004)

Not much more I can say to top the accolades already written. Just let me sum it up to say a big thanks to the VIP team, and Charlie as their chief, for a job very well done. What a special, unique item that we all will enjoy and cherish. Similar to when the McLux TK's came out, I feel like a rich patron that just received a long awaited piece of specially commissioned art. 

Cheers and kudos,

Dave


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## d'mo (Jun 11, 2004)

I just put one of Chop's reflectors into my VIP and am totally blown away.

Well done Charlie and the Hats (sounds like a good name for a band). 

Can't wait for the BH/BBH! I think I can get rid of all my incansecents now.....


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## Justintoxicated (Jun 11, 2004)

I fergot to ask, how do I get in line for your next flashliht?

I'll try a new battery tonight. All the Batteries I recieved from battery station are date 01-2004, I have 20 of them to burn through before i'll get any new ones...So I'm not sure if these will work properly in my VIP, I guess I should have ordered Surefire /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif


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## LightChucker (Jun 11, 2004)

Charlie,

I have always had a concern that if my VIP landed on one of the King's Crown points that it would bend. I hope I don't find out the hard way. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mecry.gif

Chuck


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## MR Bulk (Jun 11, 2004)

Westfork/avusblue/d'mo - thank you.

Justintox - Now yer talkin'!

LightChecker - at least the cross section of each "leg" is a nice triangle and not a thin wall. That should help. Also I did drop a couple of lights that way (acidentally-on-purpose, of course) with no negative results.

Will put up the BH preorder pretty soon after this...


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## Klaus (Jun 11, 2004)

[ QUOTE ]
*Mr Ted Bear said:*
As an example, with a rechargeable li-ion rechargeable (3.65v) the light has one level - high only. 

[/ QUOTE ]

Hmmh - is this the only problem ? Is it OK to run the LiIons in the VIP when care is taken ? Nothing to destroy the circuit / LED ? Anyone ?

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbsup.gif and /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/bowdown.gif to * DA MAN™ * - my first MrBulk light and I love every single 1/10" of it /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/buttrock.gif

Klaus


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## Phil_B (Jun 11, 2004)

Hey Klaus,shouldn't that be every 2.54 mm of it? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif


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## Klaus (Jun 11, 2004)

Ah Phil - ya now - we´re talking to these non-metric guys - you wrong-side-driver ™ /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/evilgrin07.gif

Klaus


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## MR Bulk (Jun 11, 2004)

[ QUOTE ]
*Klaus said:*
[ QUOTE ]
*Mr Ted Bear said:*
As an example, with a rechargeable li-ion rechargeable (3.65v) the light has one level - high only. 

[/ QUOTE ]

Hmmh - is this the only problem ? Is it OK to run the LiIons in the VIP when care is taken ? Nothing to destroy the circuit / LED ? Anyone ?

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbsup.gif and /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/bowdown.gif to * DA MAN™ * - my first MrBulk light and I love every single 1/10" of it /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/buttrock.gif

Klaus 

[/ QUOTE ]


It will be in Direct Drive, bypassing the circuitry. Jeff (TedBear) has reported no damage from this (functions normally when putting a CR123 back in) when doing this momentarily but long term negative effects are not known, and it is neither recommended nor even remotely hinted that it's okay to do this...


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## Klaus (Jun 11, 2004)

Thx Charlie - 

did I mention that the VIP blows away everything else I have with one cell - approaching most 2cell lights performance - and the SF-3 and my DIY DD Lion TXOK XM-2 are no slouches either - its at ARC4 L1 brightness on medium - on high the only competition is my DIY DD LiIon TYAL FRAEN ARC LS.

This is * WOW ™ * squared /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/clap.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/clap.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/clap.gif

And sorry for the sacrileg of comparing my own mods with * Bulkware™ * 

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/bowdown.gif at Charlie /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/buttrock.gif

Klaus


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## cue003 (Jun 11, 2004)

Man, this is getting harder than I thought. Another week gone and still I don't have my VIPs. Charlie did say he shipped them on Tuesday so I hope they arrive tomorrow (Saturday). If not, I am out of town for another week and the agony is going to kill me. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif

Hope they show up.


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## brightnorm (Jun 11, 2004)

With all the buildup about the VIP I was prepared to be disappointed but in fact the VIP has exceeded my expectations. Here are some of my impressions starting from when I first unpacked the light:

*Unwrapping the VIP*

The VIP looks much better in person than in any of the photos
It has a look of real quality
It looks very different from other flashlights

*Handling the VIP* 

The ridged knurling is superb, possible the best I’ve seen or felt
The switch feels more solid than I thought, it won’t break off
The king’s crown looked a little clunky in photos but is much more elegant in real life.
The legs are perfectly spaced and configured for easy thumb placement and the Kroll has just the right amount of throw and firmness.
Damn, this thing is cute!
Can I work the switch with one hand? Well, not quite but that’s OK.
Low is excellent for general maneuvering.
Medium… no, wait that must be high, it’s much too bright for medium.
High… no way, that’s got to be a fluke; it can’t be that bright.
But it is
I’m enjoying flipping that switch around

*Using the VIP*

Time to take a shower; I’ll turn off the lights and use the VIP on low instead…it’s fine, more than adequate.
GF comes home, wants to shower and I convince her to use the VIP but she insists on medium; naturally I give in. She takes a lonnng shower while the VIP blazes merrily away.
We sit in the VIP-lit (medium) living room and talk for about an hour or so (She’s really a good sport about my lights) 
“It is kind of cute” says she almost grudgingly.
Next day (night) I tried a beat-up old NX05 in the VIP. Not as dramatically bright as the Fraen but even on medium it’s brighter than my old LS. 
Back to the Fraen while I wait for the reflector to arrive

*Comments and opinion*

There was little opportunity to use the VIP outdoors in my brightly lit city and “vertical throw” tests aren’t relevant without the larger reflectors, but I did shine it briefly on a light colored travertine building wall from about 30 feet and was impressed by its brightness.

The VIP with king’s crown is 4 1/8”, quite long for a single 123 light which is why I ordered the twisty. A 2x123 VIP with twisty would be only slightly longer than the current VIP with king’s crown and, at about 4.5” would be even shorter than the 4 7/8” L4. I don’t see an easy way to configure 2x123s inline in parallel so it would probably have to be 6v. 

I would like a slimmer VIP. At 1” in diameter it is as thick as a C body Surefire but I suspect this may be necessary to accommodate two of the VIP’s outstanding features; the excellent switch and the knurling.

The ridged knurling is one of the VIP’s best features, an inspired stroke with several advantages. It is exceptionally “grippable” and provides greater heat radiating surface while reducing hand contact area making the light more comfortable and cooler to hold. This may be unique to the VIP; I know of no other light that combines this degree of thermal management with cool handling. It also looks good. 

Although My VIP arrived in perfect condition a little HA abrasion from small/sharp surfaces doesn’t bother me, in fact it’s inevitable. That said I am carrying the VIP in Surefire’s E2E holster which I altered to be slimmer.

EDC carryability is a personal choice which for me is based on brightness, runtime, beam pattern and selectability, size and weight . For my use The VIP qualifies for brightness, runtime on low, beam pattern (especially with reflector), selector switch and weight, so it won’t be a “true” EDC but there will be many times when I will enjoy taking it with me.

*Summing up*

The VIP is currently the only light with its combination of features and specs and is therefore unique. Ring up another envelope-pushing creation from Mr. Bulk! 

Brightnorm


----------



## MR Bulk (Jun 11, 2004)

Klaus, "BulkWare", eh? I like it!

cue003, all good things come to he who waits...

Norm, coming from you this is an honor indeed.


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## brightnorm (Jun 11, 2004)

Charlie,

That makes me feel sound like some formal old [email protected] 

Brightnorm /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon23.gif


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## geepondy (Jun 11, 2004)

Hijacked from the runtime plot by Roy in the review forum: Charlie, is this explanation true? I was curious from looking at the low power runtime plot why there was a big drop off that took an hour before the VIP plateaued in runtime.

Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Roy said:
Added the runtime plot for the VIP on LOW Power to the first posting in this thread. I started this runtime plot calculation at the one hour mark as that's where the plateau started. I ended the plot at 71 hours at which point the VIP was still putting out 19Fc @ 1Ft! The runtime to 50% max brightness calculated our to be just shy of 68 hours! A record runtime for me!



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Just in case folk aren't aware - that initial 1 hour before the plateau is where the 123 cell is outputting more voltage than the Luxeon requires at the dim setting (lower Vf at lower current), hence the switcher isn't running and the Luxeon is essentially in direct drive. Once the 123 discharges enough for the switcher to start having to boost you then reach the plateau.

JMEG (just my educated guess),
george.


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## geepondy (Jun 11, 2004)

The more I use this light, the more I like it. I think I will like it a whole lot more when my reflector arrives. I did an experiment regarding battery use. I ran the original battery station cell down so that it would only work in low mode, switching it to medium or high had no change. Still it was at or fairly near the standard low output which has been posted is adequate for a lot of needs. Note though that when engaging super low at this point, it is very dim, maybe enough to read your watch. I then removed the cell and put it in my KL1/E1 combo in which the light refused to light at all. I then took the cell and put it in my old style Arc LS twisty where it would light but probably not much better then the VIP in dim mode. So to me, that shows a pretty efficient use of the battery.

Really my only complaint at all is that the light will not go into normal dim mode when switching between the settings while the light is on. Although this can be fixed by first turning the light off before swithing to dim mode, I personally would rather have a higher current low mode if this would fix the problem. But this is an issue that would be very opinionated.


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## Justintoxicated (Jun 11, 2004)

So Charlie, you added me to your next mod list even though you have not started yet right? 

Since all my batteries I got last month from battery station are 01 2004, will the VIP not pulse when High Runs out? Just curious. I actualy still have the origional in there since even though it acts up a bit, the light is still impressively bright. I gotta finish killing this sucker first.

geepondy, it should work right when you put in a fresh cell, mine starts having that problem right before the light functions as medium on high. Also the new 04 batteries should fix the problem...now I wish I didn't order 20 of these old 01 batts


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## MR Bulk (Jun 11, 2004)

[ QUOTE ]
*brightnorm said:*
Charlie,

That makes me feel sound like some formal old [email protected] 

Brightnorm /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon23.gif 

[/ QUOTE ]

But _aren't_ we? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/naughty.gif

geep, since it was submitted by a well respected Electronics Engineer, and agrees with what I've been told in different ways, it must be true. But the thought now dawns on me that -- the TRUE dim level is when the plateau is reached (on Roy's chart). Prior to that the switcher that is designed to run the light on Low at 30mA is not activated, thus the light is running on Direct Drive and hence a little BRIGHTER than the true Low setting...meaning that "normal" dim setting you seek on your used battery is actually Not the Real dim setting at all. The Dim setting is the real setting. The Brighter dim setting is actually a Direct Drive as the switcher is not needed (remember, this is a boost circuit after all) so double-clicking, etc., actually ACTIVATES the switcher for the Low setting instead of the other way around. This would explain why replacing the battery with a fresh one "restores" the Low setting, when in fact what you just did was replenish the power supply with enough juice to ensure the ligiht remains in DD on Low, and is not actually using the Low setting circuitry at all.

I will have to reread what I wrote above, at some other time when I am clearer with it in my own head, but it does indeed make sense to me now. I always thought the Low setting was too bright, as it should actually be similar to the keychain lights to be truly useful as a real "Low" output illumination device. Roy's chart indeed puts things in proper perspective -- we've all been running our VIPs on Direct Drive (albeit through a very resistive path), and when the battery finally settles in below an output threshold that allows the switcher to finally kick in and begin "boosting", THAT is the *true* Low!

Justintox, everybody including you is CUT-OFF from the "new light list" until I figure out just exactly what it is we are trying to accomplish next. I Will say that with some of the new electronics we now have at our disposal, it will be awesome...if I, er, say so myself, that is... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif


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## sstrauss (Jun 12, 2004)

I can't bring myself to go through the mounds of previous posts. What is the tiny hole opposite the selector switch for?


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## keithhr (Jun 12, 2004)

just checked and I've spent a ton on 
$324 2 VIP's 1 silver 1 black HA III
$155 2 BBH's
$ 63 2 BH's 1 silver 1 black HA III
$ 36 1 twistie tailcap
$ 45 3 ripoffs flashlight holsters
$623 total for all, but it's worth it.


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## ZENGHOST (Jun 12, 2004)

[ QUOTE ]
*sstrauss said:*
I can't bring myself to go through the mounds of previous posts. What is the tiny hole opposite the selector switch for? 

[/ QUOTE ]
If you're talking about the one on the opposite side of the body, directly opposite of the switch knob, that's the screw that's holding in the switch.


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## sstrauss (Jun 12, 2004)

Oh, here I was thinking it was an attachment screw hole for a really small accessory.


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## cue003 (Jun 12, 2004)

[ QUOTE ]
*keithhr said:*
just checked and I've spent a ton on 
$324 2 VIP's 1 silver 1 black HA III
$155 2 BBH's
$ 63 2 BH's 1 silver 1 black HA III
$ 36 1 twistie tailcap
$ 45 3 ripoffs flashlight holsters
$623 total for all, but it's worth it. 

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, I was trying not to think about it but I am up there in price with yourself. I have 3 -- three -- of everything offered so far. Need to get the ripoffs that will support w/ or w/o the BH. Any of these ripoffs can carry the light and an extra battery?

Curtis


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## zipperhead (Jun 12, 2004)

I'm in for all the acessories so far. BBH,BH,reflector and twisty( also AA adapter when it comes out). Are there anymore that I am not aware of yet or are comming out soon?


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## brightnorm (Jun 12, 2004)

[ QUOTE ]
*MR Bulk said:*
[ QUOTE ]
*brightnorm said:*
Charlie,
That makes me feel sound like some formal old [email protected] 

Brightnorm /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon23.gif 

[/ QUOTE ]

But _aren't_ we? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/naughty.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

[email protected]! You're right

BN


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## Mr. Blue (Jun 12, 2004)

[ QUOTE ]
*MR Bulk said:*
[ QUOTE ]
*brightnorm said:*
Charlie,

the TRUE dim level is when the plateau is reached (on Roy's chart). Prior to that the switcher that is designed to run the light on Low at 30mA is not activated, thus the light is running on Direct Drive and hence a little BRIGHTER than the true Low setting...meaning that "normal" dim setting you seek on your used battery is actually Not the Real dim setting at all. The Dim setting is the real setting. The Brighter dim setting is actually a Direct Drive as the switcher is not needed (remember, this is a boost circuit after all) so double-clicking, etc., actually ACTIVATES the switcher for the Low setting instead of the other way around. This would explain why replacing the battery with a fresh one "restores" the Low setting, when in fact what you just did was replenish the power supply with enough juice to ensure the ligiht remains in DD on Low, and is not actually using the Low setting circuitry at all.



[/ QUOTE ]
UMMMM....what? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif


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## cue003 (Jun 12, 2004)

THEY'RE HERE!!!!

My VIPs showed up today. ....AWESOME... I open up the package and all three of my VIPs have reflectors in them and there are 3 Fraens taped to the package very neatly as well. I am in awe. The craftsmanship is amazing. The pictures do not do this light justice at all in my opinion.

Damn it... the sun is still up. Anyone know how to make it go down like right now? Is there a switch or something I can throw to make it night-time? 

Will report back later.

Thanks Charlie and the HAT team.

Curtis


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## Bullzeyebill (Jun 12, 2004)

cue003, the only things that saves me are my two dark, dark rooms, one a walk in closet and one a bathroom. No windows. Great for testing. Keeps me going during the day.

Bill


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## rfdancer (Jun 12, 2004)

I got it!!!! But.......

Charlie - I'm afraid the VIP isn't going to work for me. 

I can't carry it - It might get scratched. 
I can't touch it - It might get a fingerprint on it.
I can't attach a clip to it - It detracts from the appearance.
I can't light it - It makes my other lights look so....puny.
I can't show it - Someone might steal it.
My only option is to lock it up (No, I'm not even thinking about getting rid of it - no matter how nice a home it might go to).

IT'S NOT FAIR. I wanted an EDC and what I got was a work of art. 

Not nice Charlie, not nice at all.


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## ledaholic (Jun 12, 2004)

It's here!! One word... AWESOME!


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## ledaholic (Jun 12, 2004)

It's still not dark yet /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/popcorn.gif


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## Zman (Jun 12, 2004)

Got mine today too. Beautiful light! I can't wait until it gets dark!! Thanks Charlie!! Thanks HAT team!!


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## jdb2 (Jun 12, 2004)

Charlie,
My VIP came today. It is fantastic. 

With all of your posts on CPF, I feel as if I could watch over your shoulder as you designed and assembled it.

As long as my credit cards hold up, I'll buy anything you make. Thank you for a terrific light, well designed and carefully made.

Jay


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## ledaholic (Jun 12, 2004)

It's dark finally! This thing is great! Thanks Charlie and the HAT! No, make that perfect!


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## Geode (Jun 12, 2004)

*VIP Arrival*

VIP is here in Oregon! Great looking, and bright too. The three levels using a switch is perfect. Nice to be able to stand the light up in candle mode. Knurling makes for an exceptional grip. Added a reflector purchased from FlashlightLens, and this is a great new EDC.

An amazing piece of work, Charlie. Thanks for your exceptional efforts, and those of the HAT team too. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbsup.gif


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## brightnorm (Jun 12, 2004)

Just got the reflector from Chop and tried it out. Excellent spot and spill but less dramatically bright than the Fraen. Same lumens, different beams, neither better than the other, depends on your use and preference.

Brightnorm


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## MR Bulk (Jun 13, 2004)

I appreciate the comments from everyone, especially those letting me know the cargo arrived safely. rfdancer, too funny. And BN, I never thought of it that way -- we all know the same volume of light is being produced, but reflectors usually outperform optics of similar size. However, in the case of the Fraen vs. the IMS 17mm I guess the amount of light thrown outward is indeed very similar.

That is not the case with some other reflectors, but this I attribute to just exactly how the opening is formatted/positioned in relation to the Luxeon HD's clear dome. The IMS 17mm's LED-side aperture just about exactly matches the base of the clear Dome and this is also the case with their 20.5mm reflector, while other reflectors such as the (modified) PR, the MR (BulkHead's Mystery Reflector), and even IMS' own 27.5mm example, have a larger aperture sized more towards the outer diameter of the Luxeon HD's black _base_, with optimal focus down near (but not quite touching) the top shoulder of its black base.

Now That was a _looong_ sentence, wasn't it?


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## zackhugh (Jun 13, 2004)

[ QUOTE ]
*Zman said:*
Thanks Charlie!! Thanks HAT team!! 

[/ QUOTE ]

The HAT team appreciates your appreciation, but this is Mr. Bulk's world--we just live in it.


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## Frenchyled (Jun 13, 2004)

Be indulgent, they are my first beam shots. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif
Now I received my VIP, I have three flashlights from MrBULK. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbsup.gif
It is necessary indeed to admit that the VIP with the reflector IMS 17mm is very attractive compared with the two others whom have Fraen Optic. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

The flashlights :
VIP, SBP, SLGI






SBP Beam shot





SLGI Beam Shot





VIP Beam Shot





Just a precision, the wall which was of use for photos is not white, but blue. What explains a light tint bluish on images. In fact the whitest is well the VIP /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif


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## brnix (Jun 13, 2004)

Got mine on Friday Charlie. Absolutely magnificent. Thanks so much to you and the HAT team for doing this! I stopped by to visit my parents last night and was showing it to my dad. He's not a flashoholic but even he loved the VIP. He kept trying to buy it from me, lol. I love my dad but not enough to give him my VIP! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Brandon Nix


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## zipperhead (Jun 13, 2004)

Sounds like people are starting to get thier VIP's. For those of us still waiting, could you post when you prepaid to give us an idea of where we stand. I get excited every time I hear someone else got thier VIP. Very shortly I will be that guy posting.


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## milkyspit (Jun 13, 2004)

Frenchy, those are some beautiful beamshots. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Does anyone know of a thread here on CPF that explains how to take good beamshots? I REALLY need to learn how!
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thinking.gif


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## keithhr (Jun 13, 2004)

I have had a prototype for over a month now, and the one aspect of the making of the VIP that keeps coming to mind is that this is a FIRST ATTEMPT at building a start from scratch light with several new design concepts. My father who is a retired master machinist, schooled me early on, in the difficulties of precision maching etc. If each of us were to think about how we would go about designing and specifying what we would build, it becomes daunting to say the least. I believe it simiply illustrates the more than a bit of genius,(don't be embarrassed Charlie) that evidenced itself for him to come up with such a well engineered light. I am posting this because if each one of us gives a moment of thought as to how we would go about designing a light from the beginning, such as this, especially with the new electronic circuit, it is an amazing achievment. Just wanted to tip my hat to you because I've had the pleasure of carrying this light for over 5 weeks now. 

This has changed everything in what one could expect from a flashlight, from a runtime in low mode of close to 70 hours of light output for a possible emergency doomsday scenario, to being able to light up an object at considerable distances. When I first came here, the surefire E2E and the Arc LS and Arc aaa represented the pinnacle of what could be achieved in flashlight technology, and today things have changed mnore than a bit.I know that everything that I knew about flashlights(which I admit isn't much compared to most of the people of the cpf) is different now because of MrBulk.


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## geek (Jun 13, 2004)

Have VIP vs. Arc4+ beamshots been posted yet? I'm very interested to see some.


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## Frenchyled (Jun 13, 2004)

I haven't taken beam-shot of ARC4+, but what I can say is that the VIP is more white, because of the 3W luxeon for the VIP versus 1W for the ARC4+. The UCL, anti-reflexion UV coated is a very good choice too, it's like if you haven't any lens. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif


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## idleprocess (Jun 13, 2004)

As posted in the other VIP thread, I was surprised to see my VIP arrive so early - was expecting something else from the mailmam (other than the usual flow of bills, credit card offers, and "presorted first class").

The body components have some flaws in the anodizing - nothing to complain about, since flawless type II anodized lights are far worse for the wear after only a few weeks of light duty. There are a few edges that didn't take plating and a hairline flaw in the KC.

I tightened down the bezel since it was a bit loose. I was a bit nervous about that because of the glass lens and tight reflector fit around the HD Luxeon, but no ill effects. I hope it's the gasket taking up the slack and not the lens of reflector compressing.

I tried dropping in the optic, but will have to file off the projecting nub before I can play arou... er, test it.

Perhaps it's a coincidence, but the prong on the KC with the through-hole lines up almost perfectly with the brighness sleector switch when all body components are snugged tight. 'Makes orienting the light easy - the selector switch ends up between my pinkie and index finger when my thumb is on the tailswitch.

The kurling on the fins is _very_ aggessive - it can be rough on the fingers should you use the "cigar" hold. Larger fins may have been the way to go, but I'm not complaining.

The medium detent on the selector switch is tough to feel when selecting brightness levels - probably a consequence of the O-ring on the shaft.

Brightness levels... Low is about the same as a decent keyfob light, but seems more useful in some vague way. Medium is where the light will spend most of its time with the stock head when I need copious photons - it's amazingly bright. It's difficult to tell the difference between medium and high with the stock head at close range - unless you switch between them with the light on.

I'll be waiting for the BH to play with the high setting for any length of time.

Low setting - mine might be in the accidental Very Low setting. Whenever I switch on the light, it emits a brighter pulse for a few milliseconds then dims to what I associate with low. Perhaps a new 123 cell will fix that, but it's not a problem.

The light fits nicely into my County Comm X5 belt holster with some length to spare.


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## cue003 (Jun 13, 2004)

Is there an easy way or method for centering the fraen optic. My VIPs came with reflectors in them and I want to put the fraen in one to compare but I cannot get the circle in the middle of the square no matter what I do. It is extremely fustrating. Any help will be appreciated.

Thanks.

Curtis


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## Radagast (Jun 13, 2004)

I put flashlightlens.com ldf film over the lens and like the results. I preferred the reflector initially but with the ldf I'm liking the Fraen. It took the squareness out of the beam. It's now a smooth wide white spotlight beam.


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## brightnorm (Jun 13, 2004)

[ QUOTE ]
*keithhr said:*
...this is a FIRST ATTEMPT at building a start from scratch light with several new design concepts... 

[/ QUOTE ]
My work colleagues are used to seeing new lights but they were all fascinated by the VIP because it looked like no other light they had ever seen. Everyone I showed it to wanted to pick it up. Those ridges aren't only functional; they make a strong aesthetic statement along with the KC and switch which say: "this is a different animal"!


[ QUOTE ]
*Mr Bulk said:*

...BN, I never thought of it that way -- we all know the same volume of light is being produced, but reflectors usually outperform optics of similar size. However, in the case of the Fraen vs. the IMS 17mm I guess the amount of light thrown outward is indeed very similar. That is not the case with some other reflectors...

[/ QUOTE ]
Charlie, do some optics and reflectors reduce the total amount of light before projecting it? Then I'm wrong about the same lumens/different beams. I can see that optics could absorb some of the light energy and that if a reflector's aperture isn't snug around the LED some lumens could "leak out". When I briefly tried that old NX05 in the VIP there was definitely the impression of less light overall. I placed the NX05 on my desk next to the Fraen and it looked almost dull compared to the Fraen's crystal clarity. It would be interesting to compare the optics and reflector in an integrating sphere, or perhaps Quickbeam could so a comparison.

BN


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## this_is_nascar (Jun 13, 2004)

Does the stock VIP come with a standard mineral glass lens or UCL?


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## milkyspit (Jun 13, 2004)

[ QUOTE ]
*brightnorm said:*
[ QUOTE ]
*keithhr said:*
...this is a FIRST ATTEMPT at building a start from scratch light with several new design concepts... 

[/ QUOTE ]
My work colleagues are used to seeing new lights but they were all fascinated by the VIP because it looked like no other light they had ever seen. Everyone I showed it to wanted to pick it up. Those ridges aren't only functional; they make a strong aesthetic statement along with the KC and switch which say: "this is a different animal"!


[ QUOTE ]
*Mr Bulk said:*

...BN, I never thought of it that way -- we all know the same volume of light is being produced, but reflectors usually outperform optics of similar size. However, in the case of the Fraen vs. the IMS 17mm I guess the amount of light thrown outward is indeed very similar. That is not the case with some other reflectors...

[/ QUOTE ]
Charlie, do some optics and reflectors reduce the total amount of light before projecting it? Then I'm wrong about the same lumens/different beams. I can see that optics could absorb some of the light energy and that if a reflector's aperture isn't snug around the LED some lumens could "leak out". When I briefly tried that old NX05 in the VIP there was definitely the impression of less light overall. I placed the NX05 on my desk next to the Fraen and it looked almost dull compared to the Fraen's crystal clarity. It would be interesting to compare the optics and reflector in an integrating sphere, or perhaps Quickbeam could so a comparison.

BN 

[/ QUOTE ]

Norm, not sure if this will help at all, but one of my standard tests is to take two lights, hold them both over my head, making sure the hotspot on each will hit the same spot on the ceiling; then WITHOUT looking directly at the beams, simply stare at something on the wall in front of me and alternate turning the first light on, then the second, then the first, etc. It's a handy way for me to see how the total output of one light compares with another.

When I've done this for identical lights except for Fraen LP vs. NX05, I've found that they do indeed put out roughly the same total output. However, the NX05 does look like it would be pumping out less light because its hotspot is much smaller, and it's easy to ignore the spill light. Flooding an area with light takes LOTS of lumens! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ooo.gif

Also, I think optics absorb maybe 10-20% of the total available output, in the same way that a polycarbonate lens only allows something like 91% of the light to escape, vs. the UCL's near-100%. Besides this, the tiny NX05, Fraen LP and others can't capture anything close to the amount of output that something like a 30mm optic can.

Hope this description makes sense! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ohgeez.gif


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## zipperhead (Jun 13, 2004)

Got my VIP today. I thought my L4 adn XM2 were bright white.
Next to the VIP they both look a little yellow. I guess its all relative.


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## brightnorm (Jun 13, 2004)

Scott,

Very helpful, thanks.

BN


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## pyro (Jun 13, 2004)

TIN, 
VIP comes with UCL "stock"


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## Tree (Jun 13, 2004)

This is my attempt to show the VIP reflectors spill compared to the L4 and VIP with fraen. These shots are 21 inches away from the door and the cameras settings were on manual and locked. This is not to show the difference in brightness between the medium and high settings, the camera was set so that the hot spot was washed out a bit to bring the spill into the shot.

Click on the pics for larger images.

L4





VIP with reflector medium





VIP with reflector high





VIP with fraen medium





VIP with fraen high




And here is a web page with all the images. I'll do outdoor longer distance comparison shots when the BH arrives.


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## keithhr (Jun 13, 2004)

tree, nice shots, that pretty much describes the differences between fraen and reflector, nice job. Looking forward to your outdoor shots of the bh and bbh if you get both.


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## Mr. Blue (Jun 14, 2004)

*Re: I really am suspicious*

I got my VIP in the first ship and after playing with it a while, I popped in my own battery and used the stock one elsewhere. 

Since then, I have been gently using it and comparing it to my other lights...sort of a "get to know you" thing I do with new equipment. BTW, still running the optic, cant wait for the twistie.


Last night, I was playing with medium and dim in a dark house. Then I had to go outside for something...I couldnt believe the light on dim....It was fabulous. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/buttrock.gif On medium, I had a lump in my throat it was so intense. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

It was so intense I scurried inside and opened it up to make sure there was only ONE 3v. cell. This sucker is bright!!

Charlie, iff'n you read this, could you give me a little talk on the switch. How is the metal selector affixed to the post? Do I need to be a fusspot about protecting it from knocks? I was thinking about protecting it with some beefy o rings on the body of the light to add some shock absorbtion. Also, are there any anecdotal water resistance tests? If I have it in my pocket while boating and it gets drenched, should I leave it at home?

awesome light. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/bowdown.gif


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## Justintoxicated (Jun 15, 2004)

*Re: I really am suspicious*

Wow, now that I have had it for a few days I have been playing even more.

I just got a bunch of Carclo Optics

If you guys like the Fraen you will love the 6 deg, DZ's review says it all, only with a VIP its even better, just because haha. 

I also like the 15 deg not square like the Fraen and 6 deg, but nice round flood lighting, great for lighting up a whole area instead of a spot.

I really like the IMS reflector too but now I don't know which one I should keep in my VIP.

Right now I'm going to go with the 6 deg, because it provides nice throw! Better than the IMS, the IMS is nice up close though, but I definately prefer the 6 deg on low also.
Can I buy additional heads?


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## PJD (Jun 15, 2004)

*Re: I really am suspicious*

I received my VIP in the mail today, and all I can say is, OH, BABY!!! It's everything I expected it to be and then some. First off, I think the length is perfect; I can hold it in my hand and use it without having my palm go past the bezel. That always bugged me about some 1 cell lights...they were TOO short. The VIP is a little longer, but still pockets very nicely. There was absolutely no blemishes in the anodizing on mine...perfect coverage all the way around! The fit and feel of the VIP is great as well. The knurling and ridges are just aggressive enough to be extremely effective, but not so aggressive that you could use it as a file, like some lights I've had. One of my beefs with my Arc4+ is that I felt it was too slippery in my hand...if my hands were sweaty it was a bit hard to hold on to. I also think the King's Crown at the tail looks quite classy and VERY unique...excellent design! 

As far as output is concerned, here's my comparisons: On low it's a little brighter than my MicroIlluminator, but MUCH whiter, making it appear considerably brighter. On medium it's a little brighter than my Longbow Micra...and to think it'll run almost 3 times longer than the Micra on one cell at the medium setting makes me almost "giddy"! On high, the VIP's hotspot is damn near as bright as the hotspot on my Inova X0! That's amazing to me, because almost ALL of the Inova's output is in the hotspot...the VIP also has a VERY nice spill light that is completely lacking in the X0 (...don't get me wrong; I DO like my X0!).

In a nutshell, the VIP is everything I expected it to be, and then some! Mine came with a reflector AND a Fraen (Thanx, Charlie!), but I MUCH prefer the reflector. I find spill light to be damn near as important as the hotspot for my uses. This is my first Mr. Bulk light (I know, I know... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/whoopin.gif), but I can guarantee it won't be my last! Many thanx and kudos to Charlie and the HAT team for a job well done...and many thanx to fellow CPFers who bought all the lights I sold on B/S/T a few months ago to finance my VIP!

PJD


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## MR Bulk (Jun 15, 2004)

*Re: I really am suspicious*

[ QUOTE ]
*Mr. Blue said:*
Charlie, iff'n you read this, could you give me a little talk on the switch. How is the metal selector affixed to the post? Do I need to be a fusspot about protecting it from knocks? I was thinking about protecting it with some beefy o rings on the body of the light to add some shock absorbtion. Also, are there any anecdotal water resistance tests? If I have it in my pocket while boating and it gets drenched, should I leave it at home?

[/ QUOTE ]


To Mr. Blue (from MR Bulk, heh heh):

The switch shaft is made of a tough, _Slightly_ flexible hard-nylon type of material. The hole of the dimmer knob was milled to be a press friction fit over this shaft. It is pushed all the way down so that fully 2/3rds or more of the knob envelopes the shaft. The little 2-56 setscrew on the side of the knob is then tightened down well to "bite" into the shaft.

It will not come off, nor will it have to be protected from "knocks" of any kind. I've dropped mine a couple of times from waist height onto my tile floor in the kitchen, landing right on the switch knob. No problem-o.

Anecdotal water resistance tests - see my post earlier (either here or on the really big VIP Thread) about Mr. TedBear accidentally knocking his VIP into a mug of hot coffee and unknowingly) leaving it there for three hours in the car while he went inside an establishment to make a business call. Dry as a bone inside afterwards. If you are a little faint of heart about dunking a $160 light into the water yourself, try the "vacuum test" ala' LED Museum, where Craig will stick one half of the light into his mouth and forming a seal with his lips while sucking on it. There will be no air felt moving into your mouth. Do the same from the other side just to make doubly sure. But make sure the head is screwed on reasonably tightly (but not so tight as to crack the UCL lens, especially with the 17mm IMS reflector which is a smidge taller than the Fraen) so that the front o-ring (right under the front lip of the head, between the lip and the UCL) compesses slightly to form its own seal.

Hope this explains it for ya.

I sure am glad the VIPs have all arrived so far...sure would hate for another "incident" where one goes missing in the mail. Even with "Delivery Confirmation" confirmed!


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## Mr. Blue (Jun 15, 2004)

*Re: I really am suspicious*

thankyou Charlie, on so many levels.


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## naromtap (Jun 15, 2004)

*Re: I really am suspicious*

Received mine yesterday & very happy with it!! I was surprised to get it so soon aswell. I took it out last night in some pitch dark woods & it is on par with my E2e, I tried desperately to see which one put out more light & it MAY just be the E2e BUT then the E2e is'nt really comparible as its a 2 cell light but is the only light I have that is a similar size (VIP is smaller) - nothing the BH is'nt going to sort out anyway. The E2e's incadescant beam looks horribly yellow & dull compared to the VIP's LED which really is nice & white. Mine came shipped with a reflector - no Fraen optic, but from what I read I don't suppose I need it anyway. I did have a reflector I had bought ready to go in anyway but Charlie saved me the trouble, in actual fact it was a nice touch that he went to the trouble/expense of shipping it with the reflector as he would have known how popular the reflectors are in this light. No blemishes on mine!! (how do I articulate a raspberry sound in a post?) Looking forward to the accessories now! It's true what some of you say, you really do, pick it up, put it down, pick it up, put it down............... It just begs to be held!


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## shiftd (Jun 15, 2004)

Charlie is really one of the postmaster's friends (or postmaster is his :shrug /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif)
he always ships things fast and the stuffs arrived fast too. he even goes up his arm and limb to make sure everyone gets the stuffs.

Oi, don't you think this thread needs more pic? where are those, people? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/popcorn.gif

ah ya, notice, i change the thread of the title back. easier to see this way.


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## Zman (Jun 15, 2004)

I'm using the Carclo 6 degree right now as well. I started out with the reflector, but I like the larger hotspot of the Carclo better. I have the rest of the Carclo family as well, but haven't dropped them into the VIP yet..maybe soon.


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## Kiessling (Jun 15, 2004)

The true killer in this light is the medium mode .... very bright, very white and lasts forever! high is a nice addition and low of course is important, too, but I just have to say it again ... 3h runtime on a very bright 1x123 light with this perfect beam of the so17xa reflector is truly awesome.
bernhard


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## wasabe64 (Jun 15, 2004)

I just received mine today - thanks Charlie! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink2.gif

Sorry, I just HAVE to post another pic. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif






My production VIP comes with the S017XA reflector and looks like it has a TV0J LuxeonIII. The prototype VIP came with a TWA* LuxeonIII and a perfectly focused Fraen LP collimator.

Now, I just have to come up with the cash for all of the accessories and options that are now available!


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## brightnorm (Jun 15, 2004)

[ QUOTE ]
*Zman said:*
I'm using the Carclo 6 degree right now as well. I started out with the reflector, but I like the larger hotspot of the Carclo better. I have the rest of the Carclo family as well, but haven't dropped them into the VIP yet..maybe soon. 

[/ QUOTE ]

What diameter Carclos ahould I get for the VIP?

Thanks,
Brightnorm


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## Zman (Jun 15, 2004)

Their 6 degree..p/n 10003, is 19.7mm, I had to shave the notch a tad, and the fit is pretty tight, but with some care you can get it in there.


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## MR Bulk (Jun 15, 2004)

What Carclo comes with the LongBows? I ask this only because DarkGear brought over a LongBow with its stock Carclo optic to compare against a VIP and it was No Contest, the VIP's Fraen simply blew it away. How do we know? Because we then SWAPPED optics, and the LongBow suddenly got brighter and the VIP got less bright, although the VIP was still clearly producing more output despite the swap. So I kinda vote /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbsdown.gif on the Carclo, unless it was not the 6-degree version.


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## brightnorm (Jun 16, 2004)

Thanks

BN


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## DumboRAT (Jun 16, 2004)

I'm still in stunned shock right now.....this light is just friggin' AWESOME.....

More after a few more night's worth of use/testing. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbsup.gif

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Thank you, Charlie and HAT !

Allen
aka DumboRAT

PS: A special thanks to my good friend Sonic. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/buttrock.gif


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## cue003 (Jun 16, 2004)

are there any beamshots of the Carlco vs. the IMS etc.

Thanks

Curtis


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## MR Bulk (Jun 16, 2004)

Hey Dumbo, Darryl never _touched_ your light, not even _once_...
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(just kiddin')!


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## bricksie (Jun 16, 2004)

Mine finally arrived today with the reflector installed /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif, but it's still too light outside to try it out properly - I've been comparing it to my ARC4 second against the basement wall. The fit'n finish are amazingly good; no flaws in the HA and the threads work very smoothly. The intensity switch felt a little tight at first, but is loosening up with repeated turning (and I can now feel the detents at each position).

Compared to the ARC4 second, the beam is whiter (the ARC beam is significantly yellower), and the VIP is very much brighter in the hot spot, even on medium (I think my second was one of those that couldn't make full brightness). The VIP's spill is also much brighter and also wider. This is a Great Light Charlie /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/bowdown.gif. I can't wait for BH, BBH, and the AA holder.


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## raggie33 (Jun 16, 2004)

woohoo tonights the new moon /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gifme get excited


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## MR Bulk (Jun 16, 2004)

Hi bricksie, if you have a .035" allen wrench you can try turning out the setscrew on the opposite side of the dimmer knob a half rotation or even a quarter rotation, to loosen the switch a little without compromising the o-ring seal around the dimmer switch. A method I use when checking out each light before shipping is to back it out until loose, then tightening down until it feels "right", you'll get the hang of this after a while. Also as the switch breaks in you might want to check the tension of this screw as well, it shouldn't be a problem the way it is set up, but just for your own peace of mind.

So a .035" allen key is a good investment. It also fits the grubscrew that secures the dimmer knob onto the dimmer's switch shaft.

Hey raggz, New Moon? Cool! Wish we had that kind of true darkness here. I'm on the main, most populated island, gotta drive halfway out to the North Shore and park in the pineapple fields to get that kind of pitch black.


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## bricksie (Jun 17, 2004)

Thanks Charlie. I have numerous small Allen keys that came with my telescope - I will try them to see if one fits.


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## Justintoxicated (Jun 17, 2004)

Charlie, I have no idea what comes with the Longbow. I tried several Carclo optics, the 15 deg is nice for pure flood, but not my favorite.

The 6 deg is Just like the Fraen, only with a tighter smaller Hotspot. It still results in the same square flood, but it too is a little smaller. Does this sound like the longbow?

The one thing I did not like about the Carclo optics is that they ding and scratch very easy. the 6 deg IS a tight fit after shaving down the Tab, I pushed it up into the head untill it went in snugly, looked at the bottem of the optic that seats around the LED and I had already put dings in it. However, not enough that it seems to affect the beam or anything, and I definately like it better than the Fraen.

Another note is that there is a little play, if you push on the lense on the VIP a bit, my 6 deg will pop back in a little ways, and to get the tightest hotspot the head as to be turned out about 1 rotation.

I do like the high intesnity hotspot, can't wait to compare it to the BH, at which point I might return the reflector back to the stock head. but for throw I have to go with the 6 deg for now /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbsup.gif


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## DumboRAT (Jun 17, 2004)

Charlie,

ROFL ! No wonder it hasn't fallen apart yet! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Just kidding as well. Hey Darryl, thanks again, brother! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink2.gif


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## bricksie (Jun 17, 2004)

Just did some current draw measurements on the VIP (no-load voltage = 2.90):

High = 2.45A
medium = 480mA
low = 15mA (6mA)

The first measurement for the low setting was taken when the switch was already in the low position; the second was taken after the switch was moved from medium to low while current was still flowing (I guess this is what has come to be known as the 'ultralow' setting). The difference in light output between the two was not noticeable, at least in a partially darkened room. Therefore it seems one can more than double the runtime of the low setting simply by switching to it from medium while the light is on.


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## PeterB (Jun 17, 2004)

On a fresh cell I measure
High = 1.2A
Medium= 0.36A
Low = 10mA

I have also measured the voltage on the LED:
Medium: 3.1V
High: 3.4V
=> Probably a J bin /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif


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## Bullzeyebill (Jun 17, 2004)

On a fairly fresh cell, no load 2.91, I get:
High = 1.23A
Med = 0.39A
Low = 0.03A
What vf would this reflect? J?

I also noticed that the hot spot is too narrow on low, to me, using the reflector Too much light is in side spill to make out objects at night. I switched to Fraen, and voila, a real decent light output where I am directing light. I will use the BH and BBH for spotlight effect.

Bill


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## milkyspit (Jun 17, 2004)

Bricksie, very cool that you took the time to take some measurements! I've been too busy admiring the bright white light coming out the front. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/yellowlaugh.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

One thing about your numbers: if the no-load voltage was 2.9V, then you're using a nearly dead cell. Although I'm not sure how you got 2.45A of current flow out of a cell that depleted! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thinking.gif A typical 123 cell shows a no-load voltage of maybe 3.2V when brand new, then around 3.0V during most of its life, and drops to 2.9V, 2.8V, or even less in maybe the last 10% of its life.

Actually, a better way to check a 123 cell's condition is to measure its flash amps. A long, long time ago, I did a writeup of this sort of testing. If you want, take a look over here. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif


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## MR Bulk (Jun 17, 2004)

I'm not sure how all you guys' different current readings were taken, but from the "factory" the VIP amperage flow to the Luxeon are

~30mA on Low

~350mA on Medium

800-900mA on High

YMMV depending on minor individual variances from converter to converter. Not to mention exactly "where" you are measuring from, as well as whether you are using a .1-ohm resistor in parallel to negate any spurious readings that can result when taking current measurements directly through a DMM.


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## bricksie (Jun 18, 2004)

I took mine using the original battery with a Fluke 111 hooked up between the flashlight body and the negative end of the battery, therefore it is not the flow to the Luxeon, just the total current draw on the battery. I did it this way since this will give an indication of how long the battery will last. If I wanted to measure the current to the Luxeon, where would I put the probes (without detaching wires)? I don't want to fry the Luxeon or the converter by shorting out something. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ooo.gif

Thanks for the tip milky; my meter may have a peak-hold on it (I haven't used it very much so I am not sure what it is capable of) so I may try this on my Duracells and Yuntongs.


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## cue003 (Jun 18, 2004)

I too was wondering how to do these measurements. I have a DMM but don't know where to put the probes etc to get appropriate readings from the VIP or any other LED light for that matter. This type of information could make a great sticky if someone would post it.

If I understand correctly the light will draw the following from the CONVERTER:

~30mA on Low

~350mA on Medium

800-900mA on High

If that is correct, how does the variation of each LED with bin codes and Vf etc change the above draw?

The battery is grounded to the body of the VIP right? If so the variances in body contanct and the amount of resistance seen in the connections etc should also play a part in the "final" output, right?

Is there some quick reading materials that i can reference for this type of information/calculations etc?

Been spending a butt load of money on lights and I think it is time I really start to understand the dynamics and what i am spending my money on. Education of self is always good. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif


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## Bullzeyebill (Jun 18, 2004)

My reading was also taken off body and negative end of battery.
High: 1.23
Med : 0.39
Low : 0.03

Bill


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## BuddTX (Jun 18, 2004)

OK, 

I was very happy with my VIP when I received it, but I just changed the battery in it, and put in a new Batterystation 123a, and I have to say, that made all the difference in the world.

So, use FRESH BATTERIES in your VIP. It makes that much difference in the brightness!


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## bricksie (Jun 18, 2004)

I wonder why my current draw on 'High' is twice everyone else's (2.45 vs 1.2) /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thinking.gif


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## gadget_lover (Jun 18, 2004)

Bricksie,

If your battery is nearly run down, the voltage under load will drop. It can drop enough that the converter has to draw more current. Try it with a fresh battery that shows over 3.0 volts before you start.

Daniel


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## bricksie (Jun 18, 2004)

Thanks Daniel,
I will try it with a fresh Duracell tonight and report back what I get.


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## bricksie (Jun 18, 2004)

BTW does anyone remember what the projected runtimes are for each setting? Given my current usage (albeit on a stale battery) it looks like about 1/2 hour on high, 2.7 hours on medium, and 80+ hours on low (assuming linear usage of the available power in the battery - 1300mAH)


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## MR Bulk (Jun 18, 2004)

Bricksie, the real way to measure would be to get the DMM leads _in between_ one of the LED leads. Although this requires desoldering and is not practical, I understand there is a no-contact (inductive) measuring device that can do this, although I have no idea what it is called nor where to get it.

cue003, yes the Vf particularly will affect efficiency meaning run times, the lower the Vf the better the circuit can work.

BuddTX, yes, a new battery works wonders. For details refer to the instruction sheet that comes with each VIP.

Runtimes we got with the prototype (no particularly special setup) were ~27 minutes HIGH, ~2 hours MEDIUM, and for LOW - well, we ran out of time and patience, but Roy got 68 hours before reaching 50% brightness...and at 71 hours it was still outputting something like 19 lux. Most of the common keychains put out less than that with new batteries.


----------



## bwaites (Jun 18, 2004)

UM, Charlie, Instruction Sheet?

I didn't get no stinkin' instruction sheet!

Really, I didn't, whats up with that?

Bill


----------



## MR Bulk (Jun 18, 2004)

Bill, you gotta be kidding. E-me and I'll attach a MSWord document back to you.


----------



## bwaites (Jun 18, 2004)

Done

Bill


----------



## Bullzeyebill (Jun 18, 2004)

Instruction sheet?

Bill


----------



## geepondy (Jun 18, 2004)

[ QUOTE ]
*MR Bulk said:*
I understand there is a no-contact (inductive) measuring device that can do this, although I have no idea what it is called nor where to get it.


[/ QUOTE ]

We use inductive devices that clamp around the wires to measure current at work. I can't imagine one of them small enough to wrap around the leds of an LED though.

From the listed current draws, you surely get much more bang for you buck using medium. High to my naked eye looks like maybe a third brighter. But nice to have.


----------



## MR Bulk (Jun 18, 2004)

BullBill, please execute same request that I made of the other Bill.

Geep, apparently this one has a small probe that you can "point" at the junction you want to read, all without touching it. I know it exists because someone (but I *can't* remember who!) actually used his/hers to check across some area on a project we were working on together...

As for bang-for-buck, you are right - it is hoped that the "primary" use of the VIP will be daily (nightly?) illumination needs meaning looking through a room or a parking lot using either Medium or Low, with High reserved for BH/BBH applications. Although 35-40% brighter on the light meter, it does not appear That much brighter to the naked eye and its relatively limited run time is best reserved for true long distance applications through a more focused optical collimator.

Or wowin' onlookers... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/naughty.gif


----------



## Erik Johnson (Jun 18, 2004)

... or NiMH AA users.


----------



## MR Bulk (Jun 18, 2004)

Heh heh...


----------



## bricksie (Jun 18, 2004)

Well, I just re-did my measurements with a fresh Duracell (3.19V) and I got virtually the same current draws off of the battery:

High = 2.39A
Medium = 440mA
Low = 13mA (with no 'Ultralow' available)

Since medium will last 4 - 5 times longer than high (and is only slightly brighter), I am definately going to restrict my usage of high until I get the AA adapter + rechargeables + BH + BBH + ... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/naughty.gif


----------



## milkyspit (Jun 18, 2004)

[ QUOTE ]
*MR Bulk said:*
BullBill, please execute same request that I made of the other Bill.

Geep, apparently this one has a small probe that you can "point" at the junction you want to read, all without touching it. I know it exists because someone (but I *can't* remember who!) actually used his/hers to check across some area on a project we were working on together...

As for bang-for-buck, you are right - it is hoped that the "primary" use of the VIP will be daily (nightly?) illumination needs meaning looking through a room or a parking lot using either Medium or Low, with High reserved for BH/BBH applications. Although 35-40% brighter on the light meter, it does not appear That much brighter to the naked eye and its relatively limited run time is best reserved for true long distance applications through a more focused optical collimator.

Or wowin' onlookers... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/naughty.gif 

[/ QUOTE ]

Charlie, the one problem I'm finding with your VIP light is that _you made them too nice!_ Oftentimes I _don't_ use it, even though I find it a great tool, for fear of blemishing its beautiful casing. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ooo.gif

Now I know this isn't mathematically correct, but I find it useful to take the perceived brightness difference, and double it for an approximation of the difference in current flow through the emitter. Or put the other way around, take the percentage difference in current flow and halve it for an estimation of what the user will see. So 40% brighter on the light meter (for this purpose, you can substitute the words "light meter" for "current flow" in what I just said) comes out to something like a 20% perceived difference in brightness for the end user. Just wanted to mention that little trick! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grinser2.gif

One funny usage pattern: sometimes I like to walk at night back to an abandoned quarry in the area. Since the semi-vigilante (sp.?) neighbors have been known to hassle me about allegedly "shining flashlights in their windows" (which I don't!), I've taken to brushing up on my stealth movement tactics, as if I'm a wannabe Army Ranger or something. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grinser2.gif Now that I'm armed with BOTH a custom-tweaked 2x123 L1 with PR-T AND my trusty VIP, I hold the L1-PR-T in the left hand, VIP dialed to lowest output in the right hand, and alternately illuminate my path with the left or right hand, or nothing at all, as needs dictate. This gives me two levels of narrow, long-throwing light from the L1-PR-T, and a close range super low level of light from the right. Works great! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbsup.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif

Then of course, if the batteries fail in the L1-PR-T, I just dial up the VIP and keep on going, heh heh. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif


----------



## Bullzeyebill (Jun 18, 2004)

I found it. I did receive the instruction sheet with my VIP. My daughter found it.

Bill


----------



## bricksie (Jun 19, 2004)

Anyone have an idea of which Ripoffs holster is likely to fit the VIP? I think it would be preferable to get one that is flexible enough to accept the VIP with the 2AA holder + BH (about 2in longer than stock VIP?) as well as the stock VIP (although the shorter stock VIP might get lost in the larger holster).


----------



## NeonLights (Jun 19, 2004)

These were posted in another VIP thread (or maybe this one), but the Ripoffs holsters you may want to consider are the CO-30 for the VIP by itself, and the CO-75 for the VIP plus another light or multi-tool or knife. I got both of these for my VIP.

-Keith


----------



## MR Bulk (Jun 19, 2004)

For those who intend to carry their VIPs with the BulkHead installed, the dimensions of the BH itself are 1-1/4" in diameter by 1-21/32" high and approximately ~1-3/16" to where the chamfer begins (see picture) and when installed the VIP grows to 4-9/16", thereby adding 7/16" to the overall length:









Hope this helps.


----------



## this_is_nascar (Jun 19, 2004)

I'm confused about the VIP and a UCL lens. I'm assuming the lens that comes from Charlie is not UCL. I ordered the 19.8 mm UCL lens from Flashlightlens and it does not fit the VIP. It's the smallest one that I saw listed. Is there not a UCL available for the VIP?


----------



## Tech a Billy (Jun 19, 2004)

Just wanted to say that I received my VIP here in the mountains of NJ today. Naha-ice work Charlie. Very Impressive. I need some time alone to digest this... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/huh.gif


----------



## brnix (Jun 19, 2004)

TIN,
I ordered an additional lens with the LDF added from Chris. I emailed asking specifically for this for the VIP so I'm not sure of the actual dimensions. If I recall correctly, the VIP lens was made specifically for the VIP, although I could be wrong. Your best bet may be to drop Chris an email and he'll take care of you. Had mine two days from placement of order.


----------



## this_is_nascar (Jun 19, 2004)

Thanks. I'll try that.


----------



## MR Bulk (Jun 19, 2004)

Nascar, all VIPs _came_ with UCLs, that is the only way I would offer my best light. Nothing but the best... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Tech a Billy, thank you, hope you have some fun tonight...


----------



## neo_xeno (Jun 19, 2004)

Just received my light today! I am finally glad to own this very awesome light in my collection now. Just the feel of it alone is great, i can't put it down! thanks for making this light charlie, it is my new favorite light now.

Kyle


----------



## Vifam (Jun 20, 2004)

TIN, Please let me know how it goes. I also need replacement UCL. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon23.gif It has 4 chips from the edge (3 small and 1 large), most likely because I over tighted the head. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mecry.gif/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/banghead.gif
Thanks,


----------



## Likebright (Jun 20, 2004)

Thanks for the specks on the VIP with the Bulk Head Charlie.
Now, anyone know which Ripoffs will fit with the Bulk Head on? The 4 &9/16 " size?
Mike


----------



## CiTY (Jun 21, 2004)

Not a complaint. But I did notice this. When I turn on my VIP after sometime since it's last use, on low, then crank it up to high, it does not turn down to low. The VIP stays on high. After "warm up" and on/off, it goes back to normal operation. I am able to duplicate this. Has anybody else noticed this?


----------



## Frenchyled (Jun 21, 2004)

Same here, it arrive when battery is empty /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
I have replaced the battery with a fresh one, and no problem /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif
Read the paper provided with the VIP by Charlie /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif


----------



## bricksie (Jun 21, 2004)

I've got a question regarding the efficiency of the VIP. It seems that on high, the efficiency of the converter is less than 50%:
Assume:
Loaded battery voltage = 2.5V (just a guess)
Current Draw from Battery = 2.5A (my VIP, fresh cell)
Therefore, Total battery power = 6.25W
Assume the emitter is driven at 3W, then the converter is dissipating > 3W, or more than 50% of the battery power. Is this much dissipation dangerous to the converter? Is it just my VIP that is this inefficient on high? Others, it seems, have measured about half of this current draw on their batteries.

On medium the efficiency seems much greater. Assume:
Loaded battery voltage = 3.0V (again, a guess)
Current draw from battery = 0.44A
Therefore, battery power = 1.3W
Emitter power (estimate 3.5V * 0.35A) = 1.2W
Therefore >90% of power is getting to the emitter

My university physics classes were a few years ago, so I may be way off here with respect to both my guesses and calculations. If I am in error, (I am sure you will) let me know. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif


----------



## MR Bulk (Jun 21, 2004)

Bricksie it is not possible for your measurements to be correct, it should be more in line with what others have been getting (half that). If you need detailed explanations of certain things please PM or e-mail and I will get you (extremely technical) summaries direct from the electronics engineers who designed this board Unfortunately they don't know how to talk about this kind of stuff any other way! Thanks.


----------



## Crosman451 (Jun 21, 2004)

Got back from vacation and my VIP was waiting for me!! Very nice work Charlie. The fit and finish are over the top! I keep on picking it up and can't leave it alone. This is a super light and one of the most prized of my collection so far. Thanks again for everything.


----------



## MR Bulk (Jun 21, 2004)

Mikey! Glad to attain approval level from one of vintage airgunning's finest techs - and, "...most prized of my collection _*so far*_."??? What's next?

Hey, mebbe I can get you so totally into lights you'd end up selling me yore airgun collection - cheep. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/naughty.gif

Thanks again.


----------



## LitFuse (Jun 21, 2004)

[ QUOTE ]
*bricksie said:*
I've got a question regarding the efficiency of the VIP. It seems that on high, the efficiency of the converter is less than 50%:
Assume:
Loaded battery voltage = 2.5V (just a guess)
Current Draw from Battery = 2.5A (my VIP, fresh cell)
Therefore, Total battery power = 6.25W
Assume the emitter is driven at 3W, then the converter is dissipating > 3W, or more than 50% of the battery power. Is this much dissipation dangerous to the converter? Is it just my VIP that is this inefficient on high? Others, it seems, have measured about half of this current draw on their batteries. 

[/ QUOTE ]

bricksie- I think the problem may be that you're not making good contact with your probes on the battery or body. Try moving them around a bit and see if that changes anything. Also try using a little more pressure. I can get a 2A+ reading too, but it disappears when I press harder against the inside of the body. Let us know if that changes anything.


Peter


----------



## bricksie (Jun 21, 2004)

Thanks for straightening me out, Charlie. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/bowdown.gif I must not be using the meter correctly, although I thought it was a simple matter of putting the meter in series with the negative end of the cell and the case (in Amps mode of course, with the probe in the correct input on the meter). I must be having one of those senior's moments (although I'm only in my 40's) /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ohgeez.gif


----------



## CUTiger3 (Jun 21, 2004)

We just returned from vacation and my VIP was waiting /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif Excellent work Charlie and members of the HAT team. 
On medium setting the VIP is much brighter than my current EDC light the ARC LSH-S. Now, I need to figure out which Ripoffs holster fits the VIP...so I can get used to my new EDC /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/buttrock.gif


----------



## Justintoxicated (Jun 21, 2004)

Charlie, it looks from that picture that the VIP with a BH and twisty would be slightly smaller than the standard VIP? I don't really like twistys as much but I'm thinking about getting one for this reason.


----------



## bricksie (Jun 21, 2004)

LitFuse,
Thanks for the advice. I tried putting additional pressure on the probes (I used an alligator to clip on the case and applied additional pressure with my finger, and used the pointy probe on the battery - I put a small dent in the battery pressing on it) but still got 2.4A from a fresh Duracell. After measuring the current for approximately 15 seconds, I removed the battery and measure the voltage - it had dropped to 2.8V (from 3.19V) and was recovering slowly. It was also warm.


----------



## Icebreak (Jun 22, 2004)

My VIP showed up at work today.

I could go on about it but I think you've probably heard everything. Might I just include that excellent design elements should be lauded. Having so many fine elements come together in such a way that they dynamically support and propel each other in a harmony of brilliance and performance is truly impressive.

Time to go have fun.

Thank you!

- Jeff


----------



## bricksie (Jun 22, 2004)

LitFuse,
Instead of trying to measure the current, this time I tested runtime using NiMH AAs that I rigged up to run the light (just ordered the AA holder). I didn't want to waste a 123 on this test since I have so few at present, and I'm glad I didn't - I got *3 minutes* on High before my light started flashing on-off about 2/sec. When I measured the battery voltage, I still had >1.3V on both batteries. I quickly reinstalled the batteries and tried again, and this time only got about 20sec on High before the flashing started. The batteries were still room temp, but the emitter/converter area of the light was quite warm (but not hot). Maybe there is a problem, and I'm not crazy /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif. I may try using one of my few remaining fresh 123s tonight to repeat the test in order to eliminate any variables such as poor connection with the case (I used a double-ended alligator clip wire to make the battery-case connection)


----------



## illumiGeek (Jun 22, 2004)

I also get very short run times on high. Maybe 3-5 minutes with a fresh 123 cell (Battery Station brand). Runs a long time on medium or low, but almost nothing on high.

Been meaning to ask Charlie about this, but been busy dealing with 2 hard drive crashes (OK, and playing with the light too).

Aloha, iG


----------



## bricksie (Jun 22, 2004)

illumiGeek,
I read somewhere (in this forum?) that the older BatteryStation batteries couldn't keep up with the VIP on high - the newer ones apparently are OK. But with NiMHs, I should be getting far more than 3 minutes.


----------



## Bullzeyebill (Jun 22, 2004)

bricksie, your high amp readings in "high" are unusual. Send it to someone in CPF who is known to be capable in electrics, and have him or her test it. You need a second opinion from a knowledgeable person.

Bill

and stop running it in high. If there is that much juice going forward, then you may damage unit.


----------



## bricksie (Jun 22, 2004)

Bullzeyebill,
I haven't run it on high all day, but I plan to test it again with a fresh 123 - if I get a runtime of <5 minutes then I will conclude that there is a problem. I don't think Charlie would want me sending his light for repairs somewhere else if there is a problem; I'm sure he would want to address it himself.


----------



## MR Bulk (Jun 22, 2004)

Justintox,

The BH increases length by just 7/16" and the twisty should reduce length by somewhere around the same amount (~½-inch although I don't have one - yet - to check exactly).

Bricksie,

What runtime do you get on High with a fresh, post-03-
2004, BatteryStaton CR123 (or another namebrand cell such as SureFire, Duracell, etc.)?

Illumigeek, you live right here on the island so let me take a look at it. Also before you come over, did you try another brand of battery? The BatteryStation ones pre-dating 03-2004 (which I included with yours since that is all I had) were less than optimal, especially for this particularly super-high-drain application.


----------



## bricksie (Jun 22, 2004)

Charlie,
I just did a 'runtime' test using a fresh Duracell (3.19V) and got a whole *15 seconds* on high before the flashing started. Post-load voltage was 2.85 and rising very slowly. I'm not sure of the manufacturing date, but the best-before date is March 2013. The number embedded on the side of the battery (lot number?) is 3L0365. I measured the voltage accross the emitter on low and medium, and IIRC they were about 2.7 and 3.4V respectively. I did the same test with NiMH AAs last night and got * 3 minutes * runtime, so I don't think it is a battery issue. I think there may be a problem with the converter /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif


----------



## MR Bulk (Jun 22, 2004)

Bricksie, first of all you have my apologies no matter what this turns out to be. 15 seconds is not good, not at all. There is definitely something wrong - please PM me (I will be slow at e-mail - or not at all - for the next few days as I am working a few extra 12-hour shifts as my relief commander is on extradition to Washington, DC, and not returning until Monday) and we should get this fixed right up.


----------



## Bullzeyebill (Jun 22, 2004)

Charlie, I am not perfect re law enforcement termenology, but what terrible crine did your relief commander commit to be extradited to the "48"? I didn't know that Hawaii recognized extradition to that big land mass?

Bill


----------



## MR Bulk (Jun 22, 2004)

No, he went to pick UP an extradition candidate! This suspect committed a crime in HI and then ran away, and was finally captured by the DC agency and thus held in their cellblock waiting for us to go get'im! We work very hard at enforcing the law here and the long arm of Hawaii 5-0 has great reach, indeed...


----------



## bricksie (Jun 23, 2004)

Charlie,
Thanks for your concern. I know that you are proud of your creations, and even a 1 in 300 flaw (if it is a flaw) is unacceptable to you /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/jpshakehead.gif. PM will be sent.


----------



## indenial (Jun 24, 2004)

Ummm, I know I'm very late to the party here, but will there be another production run of these? Or is there something new in the offing? Thanks.


----------



## MR Bulk (Jun 24, 2004)

[ QUOTE ]
*indenial said:*
Ummm, I know I'm very late to the party here, but will there be another production run of these? Or is there something new in the offing? Thanks. 

[/ QUOTE ]


Indenial,

Unfortunately I must use your own CPF handle to answer your first question... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

But to answer your second - see HERE.


----------



## Jackal (Jun 24, 2004)

Just received my VIP..... Awesome!!! My favorite light. I am going to have to start dumping all my other lights since I now have the V.I.P.
MrBulk, I cannot see how you wil ever be able to top this design! Truly, it is a Masterpiece! 
I am one of the few lucky ones to obtain one. I am sure it will be the envy flashlight enthusiasts everywhere!
Kudos for a job well done!!
Anytime you try to outdo this light, I will be there to purchase it.
Jackal /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/buttrock.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/buttrock.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/buttrock.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif


----------



## Mr. Blue (Jun 25, 2004)

*Re: VIP NOT a Safe Queen*

It is just too dang useful..I don't care if it gets character marks!!!!

SERIOUS QUESTION:::Any problems taking a VIP on board an aircraft!!!


----------



## idleprocess (Jun 25, 2004)

*Re: VIP NOT a Safe Queen*

Shouldn't be - unless they're paranoid about lithium batteries, but people carry-on SLR cameras every day.


----------



## BC0311 (Jun 25, 2004)

*Re: VIP NOT a Safe Queen*

Mr. Blue, I just got back from a bunch of air travel and carried mine in my pocket all the way. 

10 total passages through security, 4 domestic and 6 international. 

All gave it a close look and I had to explain what it was and show them how it functioned. Houston customs asked me to open it, which I did by unscrewing the KC. 

Most of the inspectors were very impressed. 

4 out of 10 times they looked in the lens when they clicked it on. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/yellowlaugh.gif I had the dimmer set to HIGH. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crackup.gif

Fantastic little light and a comfort to wrap with your fist while catching a cab in Buenos Aires. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbsup.gif


----------



## this_is_nascar (Jun 25, 2004)

*Re: VIP NOT a Safe Queen*

I was wondering if they'd consider the tailcap "points" as a weapon. Glad to hear it's not a problem.


----------



## BC0311 (Jun 25, 2004)

*Re: VIP NOT a Safe Queen*

TIN, a couple of the stateside security checkers fingered the points, but were more intrigued, I think, than anything.

I think the best way to go is to fly with the twisty installed and the KC in your checked luggage.

I have a self addressed postal box with $10.00 US postage on it in my carryon. I have started doing this in the past year in case someone takes exception to something. I once had some trouble with an expensive, vintage Ronson lighter. The supervisor OKd it, but the checker swore it was prohibited (it wasn't and isn't).

If I have a problem, I can step out of line and go drop it in the mailbox and then go back through security.

Britt


----------



## raggie33 (Jun 25, 2004)

*Re: VIP NOT a Safe Queen*

i havent flew in years. but i once flew ina cesana that was way more fun then a big plane. it was for my birthday when i was a kid i was even alowed to take the controlls it was a blast . wouldnt let me land though lol


----------



## Mr. Blue (Jun 25, 2004)

*Re: VIP NOT a Safe Queen*

yeah, I was concerned about the KC,...I don't have a twisty for it yet!

BC0311...where did you get your twisty?


----------



## raggie33 (Jun 25, 2004)

*Re: VIP NOT a Safe Queen*

twisty is for sale on another thread.but i dont think there out yet


----------



## BC0311 (Jun 25, 2004)

*Re: VIP NOT a Safe Queen*

Mr. Blue, I don't have a twisty yet. I'm on the list for Otok's. 

Hey Raggie, flying in a Cessna is a lot more fun. Plus you can smoke. I chewed Nicorette gum till I wanted to heave. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon15.gif

Glad to see you on the list for that Straight-Pin. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbsup.gif


----------



## Erik Johnson (Jun 25, 2004)

*Re: VIP NOT a Safe Queen*

Probably not a big deal, but it might be a good idea to leave the switch on low power during your pass through security. You don't want some well-meaning security person taking it away because it could temporarily blind someone. Impressing people is fun, but only when those people don't try to take your precious light away.

Erik.


----------



## this_is_nascar (Jun 25, 2004)

*Re: VIP NOT a Safe Queen*

For those of you who EDC your VIP, how do you carry it?


----------



## raggie33 (Jun 25, 2004)

*Re: VIP NOT a Safe Queen*

tin i just put it in my pocket. jeans pocket


----------



## this_is_nascar (Jun 25, 2004)

*Re: VIP NOT a Safe Queen*

[ QUOTE ]
*raggie33 said:*
tin i just put it in my pocket. jeans pocket 

[/ QUOTE ]

That might work for you, however I'm married and not looking for a girlfriend.


----------



## raggie33 (Jun 25, 2004)

*Re: VIP NOT a Safe Queen*

lol


----------



## ledlurker (Jun 25, 2004)

*Re: VIP NOT a Safe Queen*

Had a leather holster made for mine


----------



## this_is_nascar (Jun 25, 2004)

*Re: VIP NOT a Safe Queen*

I'm sure it's buried somewhere in this thread, but which Rip-Offs pouch fits the VIP the best?


----------



## naromtap (Jun 25, 2004)

*Re: VIP NOT a Safe Queen*

[ QUOTE ]
*BC0311 said:*
I chewed Nicorette gum till I wanted to heave. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon15.gif
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbsup.gif 

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm chewing it now as I type, 3 months ago a piece of it suddenly went crunchy, was a filling that had fallen out whilst chewing it, I return to the dentist Monday to have another replaced that has worked loose because of it! It's like chewing tyre rubber but worse tasting! 

Still lovin my VIP!


----------



## raggie33 (Jun 25, 2004)

*Re: VIP NOT a Safe Queen*

got me 2 new 123,s today to play /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gifthere duracells from biglots


----------



## Bullzeyebill (Jun 25, 2004)

*Re: VIP NOT a Safe Queen*

I'm carrying mine in a SureFire 6P open top black leather basket weave holster.

Bill


----------



## raggie33 (Jun 25, 2004)

[ QUOTE ]
*bricksie said:*
Charlie,
I just did a 'runtime' test using a fresh Duracell (3.19V) and got a whole *15 seconds* on high before the flashing started. Post-load voltage was 2.85 and rising very slowly. I'm not sure of the manufacturing date, but the best-before date is March 2013. The number embedded on the side of the battery (lot number?) is 3L0365. I measured the voltage accross the emitter on low and medium, and IIRC they were about 2.7 and 3.4V respectively. I did the same test with NiMH AAs last night and got * 3 minutes * runtime, so I don't think it is a battery issue. I think there may be a problem with the converter /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif 

[/ QUOTE ]im wondering if durcells are just not to good i just did a runtime test on a durcell i got from big lots and it was very good to me im very happy but comprRED to some other vips runtimesit was less i got 20 minutes .but at how bright it is ill be glad with 10 minutes only batts i can get right now are thease durcells


----------



## idleprocess (Jun 25, 2004)

*Re: VIP NOT a Safe Queen*

I carry mine in a CountyComm X5T belt pouch. It's shorter than a X5T, so there's the possibility of it falling out at an inopportune moment. Perhaps the BH will remedy that issue.

I found an easy way to both help center and retain the IMS reflector in the stock head. I happened to have a ~1/4" wide rubber band _(California Asparagus, 4080)_ that looked to fill the gap between the reflector and VIP nicely. I cut it to be roughly equal to the circumference of the reflector then dropped it into the head. With some gentle persuasion, the reflector mated to the lens and is held in place. Getting it out will be a modest challenge if I don't want to push on the lens.

Piccy:


----------



## BC0311 (Jun 26, 2004)

*Re: VIP NOT a Safe Queen*

I'm having some leather sheaths built for the VIP. They will be a little heavier and bulkier than many would care for. They are designed for duty and field wear.

They will be similar to the sheath below which I had made for the McLux PR 917/E2e. However the flap will be longer and will have two positions for snapping to accommodate carrying the VIP with the stock head (either lens up or down) or the BH (lens up).

The sheath is lined so that the bottom of the male part of the snaps won't scratch the flashlight body.







I carried my VIP for the last couple of weeks abroad two ways, both used a lanyard made from a very strong, dark brown cord. I don't know what to call it, I scrounged it from the bottom of my hunting locker.

I carried it in the breast pocket of a shirt with the lanyard either tethered to an epaulette or the buttonhole of the pocket or a buttonhole on the front of the shirt.

Other times I carried it in a thigh cargo pocket with the lanyard tethered to a belt loop.

As soon as the sheaths arrive I'll post photos here, I prefer to carry all but my smallest lights in sheaths. The VIP fell out of my pocket maybe 8 times but never hit the hard deck because of the lanyard. It did hit a stone counter at an eatery, trees and dirt. I cleaned it up with a toothbrush and alcohol and there wasn't a mark on the finish. But I won't always be so lucky, so I'll carry it sheathed.


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## this_is_nascar (Jun 26, 2004)

*Re: VIP NOT a Safe Queen*

That's nice BC0311. I'd be interested in one of those.


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## naromtap (Jun 26, 2004)

*Re: VIP NOT a Safe Queen*

Thats Nice! Will there be any in black?


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## BC0311 (Jun 26, 2004)

*Re: VIP NOT a Safe Queen*

Ray, I believe I have one that's unspoken for. I'll reserve it for you and when they come in (3-4 weeks) you'll have first refusal on it.

I think one of mine will have a little snap flapped pouch to hold a spare cell. 

Britt


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## BC0311 (Jun 26, 2004)

*Re: VIP NOT a Safe Queen*

Hi Naromtap, yes, some will be dyed black. Charlie, Marcspar, Frenchy, and Wasabe64 will all have the black versions.

Handmolding and hand sewing with a stitcher these sheaths is a real bear. He doesn't use power presses like the big boys.

Commercially drum-dyed black leather just doesn't work well for handmolding. Sumpin about the effect the black dye has on the leather. So, he hand dyes the leather after the molding and assembly. He's experimented with formulas for the black dye and has one that seems to work pretty well.

I tell people this so that they don't expect the glossy, black as Bin Laden's soul, finish found on factory leather duty gear.

After they arrive, when I post photos, I'll post a link to the sheathmaker so that others can order direct from him.

Glad you fellahs like them.

Britt


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## MR Bulk (Jun 26, 2004)

*Re: VIP NOT a Safe Queen*

Woo Hoo! Plus it will match my duty gear as they ain't that shiny patent leather ceremonial stuff the brass wears (I still Work for a livin')!

Britt, I trust you got the dimensions for the VIP after the Bulkhead is affixed? It's in an earlier post here somewhere, you were away anyway so I didn't e-mail it directly to you. But anyway if memory serves it makes the VIP about 7/16" longer is all, since the BH screws over the threaded length of the body normally taken up by the stock head. BTW your silver BH is in, will ship Monday (as well as the twelve other silver BHs for the other guys). Black HA3 heads should be done by the end of this week and then shipping to me after which I shall get them right out (which means a HAT Team packing/shipping event is comin' up!).


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## BC0311 (Jun 26, 2004)

*Re: VIP NOT a Safe Queen*

Yes sir, I got them, Charlie. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbsup.gif You emailed them to me and I forwarded with a photo of the BH equipped and "stock" (odd to use that word with the VIP, isn't it?) VIPs to Ron. 

The only modification required to accommodate the BH is the lengthening of the strap. I suggested he call this highly modified version of his "Arroyo" sheath, The Bush Ape in honor of me. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/yellowlaugh.gif No sir, no ego here I reckon. 

I have one for Don's McL1 and it's never come unsnapped in alot of heavy use in the bush. So, hopefully it won't come unsnapped and your light fall out when you're hopping rooftops chasing perps on Hotel Street or somewhere. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

I am very excited about getting your BH. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/buttrock.gif It'll go on the next trip with me, I'm hoping I'll have the prototype VIP sheath too.

My 2nd LionHeart will go to Ron for sheathing. The pocket will be designed for lens down carry, so that you can draw your light ready to fire it up. But, it may have a similar flap retention strap.


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## Kiessling (Jun 27, 2004)

*Re: VIP NOT a Safe Queen*

some VIP pics ...

















bernhard


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## marcspar (Jun 27, 2004)

*Re: VIP NOT a Safe Queen*

Hello Britt!

I am not carrying my prized vip until your sheath arrives; I know it will be worth the wait.

Any chance of getting a little snap flapped pouch to hold a spare cell on mine?

Thanks for the updates from South America. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink2.gif

Marc


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## MR Bulk (Jun 27, 2004)

*Re: VIP NOT a Safe Queen*

Nice pics Bernie, what's those little curved metal things?


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## raggie33 (Jun 27, 2004)

*Re: VIP NOT a Safe Queen*

them curved things apear to me to be from gang boxes when ya wire a house ya punch em out


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## Kiessling (Jun 27, 2004)

*Re: VIP NOT a Safe Queen*

this is an "oloid" I think, but I might be wrong. it is an interesting geometrical shape that feels very good to the touch and can roll just like a ball! This one is hand-made of brass and cost me $100 /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon15.gif ... but ya know ... cannot resist little shiny things ... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
congrats again on the VIP, Charlie! A nice versatile sucker /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/evilgrin07.gif!
I really do not get all this talk about accessories ... it is perfect the way it is now, no need to change anything. Err ... except batteries of course.

bernie

EDIT: the other metal thing in the middle pic is a nig bad gold ring with an onyx /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif


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## MR Bulk (Jun 27, 2004)

*Re: VIP NOT a Safe Queen*

I cannot for the life of me see how they can "roll"...?


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## geek (Jun 28, 2004)

*Re: VIP NOT a Safe Queen*

You made me curious, so I looked it up; here is some info about the oloid.


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## Likebright (Jun 28, 2004)

*Re: VIP NOT a Safe Queen*

Hay cool! I just went to that site and played with the animation.
Now I want a oloid too. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ohgeez.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon15.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif


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## milkyspit (Jun 28, 2004)

*Re: VIP NOT a Safe Queen*

[ QUOTE ]
*Likebright said:*
Hay cool! I just went to that site and played with the animation.
Now I want a oloid too. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ohgeez.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon15.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif 

[/ QUOTE ]

Oloid group buy? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif


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## MR Bulk (Jun 28, 2004)

*Re: VIP NOT a Safe Queen*

Oh, man! I went to the site and played with the animation too, and now I want one as well. No, change that t, I _*Must*_ have one!!!

Anybody up for "OloidPower Forums"?


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## daloosh (Jun 28, 2004)

*Re: VIP NOT a Safe Queen*

That IS cool, but I dunno about a hunert bucks! 

Back on topic, I'm using the old CountyComm X5T holster, the new one works well with the X5T, but doesn't cover all of the light, and I don't want my VIP exposed. Also, the new X5T holster has less velcro, so with the shorter length of the VIP, the velcro is not optimally situated, and the flap is more likely to come loose than before.

daloosh

Charlie, email sent.


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## Justintoxicated (Jun 28, 2004)

*Re: VIP NOT a Safe Queen*

I tested my VIP this weekend out at the desert. First I used some of my other toys, Drained the rechargable Xeon light I had, and busted out the 3C DD, but it was low on batteries too so I quickly swapped to my favorite, the VIP. And people thought I was crazy for bringing so many flashlights lol. Went for a night ride on my ATV out at ocatillo. Although I need to find a safer way to carry my VIP, it works perfectly for my nighttime needs. I was dialing in my bike and checking it for proper jetting. Just did alot of modifications so I was curious but a bit nervous about testing everything out in the middle of the night. VIP worked great for checking for the nicle little brown ring at the bottem of the porclin on my spark plugs, and provided enough light to route some new fuel tubing make cuts and everything clamped into place. Also small enough to fit in my pocket on a ride without being uncomfortable at all.

Also had some fun with it sitting on the top of blowsand dune after the moon went down. Clicked it ono and was saying to my friends, "<an I thought it would be brighter" They said, "what did you expect a spotlight"?

then I said "oh wait it's on low" hahaha. Can't wait the the BH attachement so I can really see how much throw I can get from such a small light. And what better place to test than in the middle of the desert on top of a sand dune, with no light and no moon? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Oh yea, and no sand or dust appears to have worked it way into the light! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grinser2.gif


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## BC0311 (Jun 28, 2004)

*Re: VIP NOT a Safe Queen*

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/yellowlaugh.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbsup.gif


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## rfdancer (Jun 28, 2004)

*Re: VIP NOT a Safe Queen*

Just found a Brass oloid for sale for 335 Euros at: 
http://www.arabesk.nl/english.html - it's about 80% of the way down the page and doesn't show up (in my browser) when you use the normal find function for Oloid. Look for it manually.

Makes the $100 price tag look very reasonable - if not downright cheap.


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## Kiessling (Jun 28, 2004)

*Re: VIP NOT a Safe Queen*

I swear those can roll just like a ball can, just not in every direction.
My brass one was hand-made by a gold-smith and is quite nice. The wood verisons are much cheaper though ...
At 355 I'd think twice though /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon15.gif
Point about those is not only that they look cool, but they are extremely nice to touch and hold in the hand ... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/naughty.gif
bernhard


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## m1match (Jun 29, 2004)

*VIP-Thank you Charlie!!!*

Waiting for me when I got back from a two week business/vacation trip was the USPS box with the Hawaii return address!! I'm just impressed as anything at the thought and craftmanship that Charlie put into the VIP. The workmanship is flawless, the brightness switch works without a hitch and damn, this light is bright!!! Mine came with a reflector installed and a Fraen optic also. On High, my eyes are telling me its as bright as my Surefire L4 when compared side to side, except that the VIP makes the L4s light seem yellow green in comparison. Even Medium is extremely bright and so is Low. The VIP will now be my EDC light along with my ARC4+second. I love both lights and the ARC 4+ I use when I need less light than the VIP. Now if someone came up with a pocket clip that works as well at the ARCs, I'd love to have that too. Can't wait for the Bulk Head to arrive.

Congratulations on an awesome design, manufacturing, and assembling job Charlie and all those who helped you. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/bowdown.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/popcorn.gif


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## 83Venture (Jul 12, 2004)

Noticed something on the VIP last night. This is still the battery Charlie shipped in the light with whatever runtime on it + what I have put on it so I'm sure it's low. 

It would turn on in Low and Med but if I left it on and switched up/down from Med there was no change in brightness. Other times it would not change from med to low but did get dimmer when I switched to Hi. Another time it would switch from med to low, but the brightness on low was much less than the Ultra-low you get with the double click.

Just an observation that when the battery gets low you can't be sure of the brightness level you will get when you twist the switch. This may have been noted before and I forgot (Lots of threads), if so please disreguard. 

I'm sure the "Bright" minds that hang around here would be able to explain the reason why the circuit does this and that it is normal operation. I just accept that it is and continue learning about this great light.

A wonderful creation and my EDC in my back pocket with the Bulkhead I received on Friday. I am watching to see how the Kings crown spikes wear on the pocket, I may have to start using the twisty on it to prevent damage. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif


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## idleprocess (Jul 12, 2004)

My VIP displays similar behavior - as the battery runs down the brightness selector doesn't always work when the light is on. This occurs shortly before the light begins strobing on high.


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## mst3k (Jul 12, 2004)

Funny I was just about to post something very similar. I was switching between Med and Hi last nite and I could not notice a visible change in intensity. I had the BH on it and I was thinking that perhaps the way this thing collimates the beam much tighter that perhaps that was why I wasn't seeing a difference. Then I pulled out my Baby Pin and it was brighter than my VIP on High. Thats when the flag went up. I put a fresh battery in the Vip and Yeeha! No comparison! It did remind me, tho, of just how great the Baby Pin is.

Charlie your lights rock, oh yeah, and so do you!


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## bwaites (Jul 12, 2004)

Ok, so mine started strobing on medium with a brand new Polaroid 123. I turned it off and back on and it continued.

I turned it off, left it off for a few hours, and it works normally now. The pics in my "Mule" thread are with that battery.

I didn't know it would even strobe on medium?

Bill


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## Bullzeyebill (Jul 12, 2004)

After using my VIP on medium for awhile it started strobing slowly. I turned it off for a few minutes then back on and it worked fine. Has not strobed once since then. I had checked voltage of cell, and it read 2.87, At 2.87 my Arc LSH-P would have been getting dim.

Bill


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## d'mo (Jul 12, 2004)

Charlie, one question: My VIP brightens when turning the knob counter clockwise. This is a little counter intuative. Are they all like this? Can it be wired to brighten when the switch is turned clockwise?

Thanks!!!


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## Justintoxicated (Jul 12, 2004)

I need to get some new batteries so mine will strobe, Mine always jsut kicks down to the next lower level of brightness, Like it changes from high to medium, when the batteries are exhausted on high


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## MR Bulk (Jul 12, 2004)

Hey, new strategy, I'll wait till you guys figure out the answers to questions by yourselves like mst3k just did!


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## raggie33 (Jul 12, 2004)

i put a new batt in my vip 3 minutes latter it started to flicker i was like what in the world i knew it had to be a problem with something other then the vip. so i check batts voltage it was pretty low then i go thru the rest of the batts i had and brand new in pack they was low.(note i ordeded thease batts on july 1 from a few states from me usaly 2 days mail so i call and i find out it wont come to the 12th . so i pretty much emailed them back and told them i wont be here on 12th it was cod. but they came any way early in the am so i was still here. but i dont recomend unversal abtts at all the dealer is sending me some replacments but man i guess i will have to check em all to feel safe and then i will still worry.


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## gregw (Jul 16, 2004)

Finally received the VIP which I bought from Cue. Absolutely fantastic piece of work! Even my wife was impressed at the quality and precision.. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbsup.gif Can't wait to receive my BH and other accessories... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif 

Well done Charlie! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/clap.gif


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## naromtap (Jul 16, 2004)

I put a new SF battery in mine & all little glitches are gone, right down to even after the strobing kicked in on high the other 2 modes worked 100% as they should even when selecting up & down between med & low whilst turned on, something that with the other battery would cause that ultra low mode & other weird stuff, the other battery had'nt even got as low to start strobing on high & it was causing probs! Anyway here's a mobile phone pic of the VIP aet to 'med', is the pic nessacary?, no, not really...lol


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