# Requirements for caving lights



## firefly99 (Apr 4, 2006)

Never been to a cave before. As a flashaholic, I am very curious what are the special requirements that a light or headlamp should have, so that it can be use for caving.

Please advise, Thanks.


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## Aaron1100us (Apr 4, 2006)

I've never been caving either but plan on in the next couple of months. I would imagine durability, battery life and even water resistance would be a factor. I hear about people using carbide lamps but I don't know much about those. I just got a PT Apex to try out in the caves. 3w luxeon plus 4 very bright 5mm LEDs and waterproof to 1 meter. Not as durable as the sten lights, I here those are pretty top of the line for cave lights, very pricey though. Oh, the Apex runs 4.5 hours on Lithium AAs. I'd suggest a good headlamp and atleast three other lights. I hear the streamlight pro polymer 4XAA luxeon is pretty good and waterproof too. I think thats going to be my next light, not too expensive either. Hopefully some others will chime in here too as I would like to know more about this too.


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## cy (Apr 4, 2006)

look in the stenlight thread....


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## PeLu (Apr 4, 2006)

cy said:


> look in the stenlight thread....


Yes, thats a good advice and there are several other threads.

But it is a dangerous place here to ask .-)

Only one: brightness is not the most important thing for a caving light, but people infected with flashaholism will tell you so .-)

(humorless people beware, sentence above contains sarcasm!)


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## Ocelot (Apr 4, 2006)

firefly99 said:


> Never been to a cave before. As a flashaholic, I am very curious what are the special requirements that a light or headlamp should have, so that it can be use for caving.
> 
> Please advise, Thanks.



Here are mine:

- No cords (battery mounts on helmet)
- Not just a tight spot; must have some width to the illuminated area
- Small size/weight (not so much an issue nowadays)
- Battery not too heavy (2C would be about max I would prefer)
- Dimmable with continuous control or at least 4 levels
- Can be used with regular alkaline batteries
- Regulated for constant brightness
- Water resistant (doesn't have to be water proof)
- Min 1W output on high

I ended up building my own out of a 5W Luxeon. It has continuous brightness adjust from ~0.01W to 5W. I went with a homemade step-up current regulator, so that I wouldn't need more than 4 cells. This works well with using NiMH batteries, as the chargers do 4 cells at a time. I'll pay for the slight efficiency loss compared to a step-down regulator, since I end up with a smaller/lighter/cheaper battery pack.

Scott


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## JonSidneyB (Apr 4, 2006)

Do you belong to a caving grotto?

 Denise and I are just now getting into caving.

I will be carrying the Stenlight as a regular item.


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## jtice (Apr 4, 2006)

If you dont want to spend alot,

Get yourself a PT Corona headlamp,
its got great runtime, its small, and is a nice flood.

Then get a Streamlight 4AA LED as a hand light.

Then have a backup light, I suggest the UK 4AA LED.

~John


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## firefly99 (Apr 4, 2006)

Thanks everybody for the input. I do not belong to a caving grotto.

I had look in the stenlight thread and aware it is one of the best caving light.
But it does not answer my questions. Does it mean that any bright light that is dimmable, water resistance, head/helmet mountable would be suitable.
If so, does SF lights such as U2, L2 qualify for caving use ?

What are the requirements for a light to survive/ being use in the unique environment of a cave ? 

Currently the only headlamp I had is a Inova 24/7, would this be suitable for caving ? Thanks.


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## cave dave (Apr 4, 2006)

Gee, I caved for years with a single level non-regulated light of max brigtness less than 15 lumens (about 1/2 watt). What was I thinking?

I think the most important thing is THREE (3) Helmet mountable headlamps (aka a headlamp that tilts up and down, not a ziptied handheld) that have a good reputation for overall reliability/durability, and a decent burn time. I would recommend at least 6 hours. Regulation and high brightness might be nice to have but are not really neccesary and shorten the burn time.

I second the vote for the PT Corona as a nice light that is not too expensive. I own a Stenlight and use it for caving but frankly would not recommend it to anybody who didn't have money to burn.


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## vtunderground (Apr 4, 2006)

firefly99 said:


> Never been to a cave before. As a flashaholic, I am very curious what are the special requirements that a light or headlamp should have, so that it can be use for caving.



What I look for in a caving headlamp:

- bright, smooth beam, with excellent spill
- regulated, with multiple light levels
- excellent runtime (I like doing a 5-8 hour trip without having to change batteries)
- very tough
- waterproof
- lifetime warrantee
- somewhat affordable (my limit is about $70)

My primary headlamp is a Pelican 2630, and my backup headlamp is a reflectored PT EOS. My second backup light is a UK Mini-Q40 eLED. Personally, I would not take any of my Surefire's in a cave.

I'm another fan of the PT Corona, I think it'd do well caving.


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## jtice (Apr 4, 2006)

Surefires could survive caving very well, I would totally trust the LED models.

BUT !!!
You will Destroy the HAIII Finish.
Caving is very hard on things, and to get around in there well, you cant be worrying about not gouging your light into a rock etc.
It will get dragged around and beat to hell.

Thats why I like lights like the Streamlight 4AA LED, 
its plastic body scratches easy, sure, but its not as noticable,
its a plastic, inexpensive light, that you wont feel bad about scratching up.

Small lights like the Arc AAA, Arc AA, and Fenix lights, 
also make good backup lights for around your neck.

A Single Arc AAA can be PLENTY bright in a cave, after you are night adapted.
You could find your way out with that little of light.

Chemical glow sticks are nice also, I use them on the packs etc, so we dont loose them if we need to sit them down,
I also use them as markers, if I am on a maze cave.

~John


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## PeLu (Apr 5, 2006)

I agree with Ocelot, except that my experience shows that 4 or 5 levels are better than a continous control. 

15-20lm as a maximum should be enough for most occasions, of course it is sometimes nice to have more. It also depends on your personal likings. There are typical low light cavers, who are happy with 1lm and when you get older you will need more. 

One piece lights are the most robust, obviously, but make your helmet unbalanced.
Best solution seems to be a completely helmet mounted light were you could route the cables inside. That means very small connectors. 
Watch the connectors if they are waterproof.

Itis absolutely not necessary to keep 3 lights on your helmet all the time. Actually I only have one on my helmet at a time and I'm quite happy the last several hundreds caving trips.

If you are going into serious caving, you will survey virgin passage and in case you are theperson doing the instruments, your light should not influnce the compass. 

For a backup light, use one of the small lights, the ArcAAA for example has turned out to be NOT caving proof here, we had most of them failing. And BTW, there are cheaper lights for that task. 

Rechargeable lights are only worth the hassle if you do lots of caving. Primary cells are just easier. 

A caving light should be dive proof down to maybe 5m. So you do not have to worry when you clean your gear. And of course you do not have to worry about you light when you have to put your head under water in a duck or waterfall. Just one thing less to worry about.

I'm very concerned about light distribution with all my lights (not only for caving) and I like an even wide beam. The Stenlight has not enough sidespill for my taste. 

If you do vertical caving, a good spot is useful, but also in larger caves. 

And, as Mentioned above, it is very conventient if you could do the whole trip without changing the battery.

We had a discussion about chemical light sticks here some time ago and they turned out to be useless for anything else than marking a way or similar.


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## Ocelot (Apr 5, 2006)

PeLu said:


> I agree with Ocelot, except that my experience shows that 4 or 5 levels are better than a continous control.



I would personally define "better" as resulting in a more robust switch.

For ease-of-implementation when I build my own lights, I can very easily do a continuous control without resorting to extra ICs or a CPU. But since most people don't build their own lights, that is a concern that they don't have. I also don't like having to step through 4-5 other levels to get to the one I want.

I also like continuous because I cave in extremely varied brightness caves (not that others don't). For example, we have some VERY black lava tubes around here, some not-so-black. Also alpine caves with pretty dark schist in places (floor/large part of the walls, with ceiling in marble). Then, in the same cave, you have full, white marble walls. Then there are the much lighter-walled caves where power isn't so necessary. More recently in Peru, the floor/ceiling were often sandstone which is betwen the two extremes. Which is why I like being able to really tune the light to the circumstances, and optimize the battery power. 

And then of course the crawlways... And turning down the light to do book or read maps.



PeLu said:


> Itis absolutely not necessary to keep 3 lights on your helmet all the time. Actually I only have one on my helmet at a time and I'm quite happy the last several hundreds caving trips.



I happen to have three lights on my helmet, but they don't take up as much space/weight as one might think. I agree that 3 lights is overkill. Although one backup mounted on the helmet should be available; what are you going to do if your light fails while on rope in the middle of an ascent? Or you go down a crawl to check it out, leaving your pack behind, and something happens? I used to carry another light around my neck, but that often chafed my neck, so I switched to a spare light on my helmet.

This reminds me of caving in Guatemala, where we were floating in a river on our way out of the cave, and we were all using carbide lights. The passage at one points gets much smaller, the river speed picks up, and all of a sudden you get sucked into the choke point, the wind blows out your carbide, and you go whipping around a bend in the river... It sure was nice that someone had a spare electric headlamp to switch on at the time.

I have a Brinkman high-pressure xenon running on 2 lithium CR123A cells for high lead spotting. It's a highly focused 5W light that throws a pretty good beam. It's a small & lightweight light mounted to the side.

The other helmet light is a photon micro light for emergency use, tucked inside a large rubber band (tire inner tube). Almost no weight at all.



PeLu said:


> Rechargeable lights are only worth the hassle if you do lots of caving. Primary cells are just easier.



Well, you would have to define "lots".

I only cave maybe 1/month, a bit more in the summer. Since I use the same rechargeable batteries in my digital cameras and GPS units, it's not that much of a hassle. Certainly if I didn't share these batteries, and I only went caving once every 4-5 months, then rechargeables wouldn't make much sense.

The other advantage of rechargeables is that they have much lower internal resistance than primary batteries when you are talking smaller sizes such as AA, so they can provide more power for a longer period of time without dropping a bunch of wasted power as heat inside the battery.

Scott


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## Lee1959 (Apr 5, 2006)

Jtice have you seen or used the tiny glow sticks? You could carry a lot of them in a small area to use as markers.

http://www.actiongear.com/cgi-bin/tame.exe/agcatalog/level4s.tam?xax=12942&M5COPY%2Ectx=7357&M5%2Ectx=3206&M2%5FDESC%2Ectx=Omniglow%20Chemlights%AE%2C%20Krill%AE%20Electronic%20Lights&level3%2Ectx=results%2Etam&query%2Ectx=glow%20sticks&backto=%2Fagcatalog%2Fresults%2Etam


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## jtice (Apr 5, 2006)

I have about 70 of them at home  along with about 50 of the 6" ones, and some bracelets.

They are ok, they will work as markers, as long as they are in line of sight.

Bad thing is, there is no attachment point on them, 
so you just have to sit them there, or stick them in the mud, if you can.

I have found the bracelets work really well for attaching to packs etc.
But, they are so long and skinny, they break and activate VERY easy.

I get all mine from here, 
and I think I will be sticking to the 6" 12 hour ones.

http://www.illuminationz.com

~John


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## cave dave (Apr 5, 2006)

OK, I have currently have 4 lights on my helmet alone, but I am a flashoholic after all. Some people EDC that many. I hope my post above didn't imply that you need all three on your helmet. I just meant they should all be helmet mountable under adverse conditions. You don't really want to be fooling around with duct tape and zipties after your primary and secondary have failed. 

I would recommend however a simple backup on your helmet. I use an original CMG infinity which has proved caveproof so far. I leave it on all the time. I call it an "always on backup" This way if your primary fails suddenly you have enough light to get to someplace safe to dig out your secondary from the pack. I am the only person I have ever met who does this by the way.

Here are some links from our grotto website about cave gear:
See #7 
http://cave.pure.net/~bats/pages/documents.html


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## PeLu (Apr 6, 2006)

discrete levels versus continous control:



Ocelot said:


> I would personally define "better" as resulting in a more robust switch.


Of course you are right that you usually have no choice. Discrete steps add the ability to keep a little bit track of what you are using. 

I did not mean anything about the range and with most lights I would like another lower setting. 

The Melzer Radon's 5 levels spaced 1:3 seem to me almost perfect. 



> I happen to have three lights on my helmet....one backup mounted on the helmet should be available; what are you going to do if your light fails while on rope in the middle of an ascent?


 I think it will not even be worth to get my backup light which I carry on a necksling under my coverall. 

This case did not happen to me in the last 7 years. 



> It's a small & lightweight light mounted to the side.


 cavers are different, but I do not want to make my helmet any wider. Too many cases where it could just fit through a fissure. Actually I had the impression that caves are built so that a helmet could fit through it sideways.....
(depends also on you chest size). 

rechargeables:
If you use AA cells, for example it is quite easy to change. But if you buy a dedicated set of batteries and chargers like the one for the Stenlight, you invest muchmore money. 
And as I wrote, you have to keep track. And depends on your caving style. On our alpine huts, electricity for charging is sometimes scarce. 
When I used my ActionLight 1 I enjoyed it very much (on expeditions) that I did not have to fiddle around with my dirty caving gear after the trip. For a price, of course. 

Chemical light sticks: As I wrote, the only application they have prooved some value here, is for marking a path. 
But, on the other hand, marking a path is only very rarely needed. Actually only in larger cave rescue operations where you have rescuers not familiar with the cave.....


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## Keltec (Apr 6, 2006)

jtice said:


> Thats why I like lights like the Streamlight 4AA LED,



Jtice, didn't you have a problem with it's switch ?




jtice said:


> Chemical glow sticks are nice also, I use them on the packs etc, so we dont loose them if we need to sit them down,
> I also use them as markers, if I am on a maze cave.



Do you have to collect them when going back ?


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## Keltec (Apr 6, 2006)

cave dave said:


> I would recommend however a simple backup on your helmet. I use an original CMG infinity which has proved caveproof so far. I leave it on all the time. I call it an "always on backup" This way if your primary fails suddenly you have enough light to get to someplace safe to dig out your secondary from the pack.



Princeton Tec Pilot Has anyone used it ?


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## Biggimo1 (Apr 7, 2006)

I like the Eos as a back-up. I use it as my primary also, sometimes. It is plenty of light for caving. My main light is a homemade Tri-lux head lamp. You don't really need 200+ lms in a cave, but we are all light freaks here, right?

Brian B.


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## nc987 (Apr 7, 2006)

Ive been caving twice before, and I am going again this spring here soon. First time I used a shitty flashlight. Last time I used a black diamond zenix, love that headlamp. My plans for my next excursion will be my Surefire KL3 in the headband holder Surefire makes for the 6P and the black diamond zenix and of course, my various back up lights, E2L, X5, etc and glow sticks. Caving rocks!


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## PeLu (Apr 7, 2006)

Biggimo1 said:


> You don't really need 200+ lms in a cave, but we are all light freaks here, right?


Thanks, you brought it to a point .-)

Chemical lightsticks as a marker: 
As I wrote before, only for special occasions like big rescues where you have to lead lots of people and no time. 

For maze caves we prefer the software solution .-)


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## Mark620 (Apr 7, 2006)

I like the princeton tech for caving, 
the 4 leds on high for general movement.
Caving lights need to give a very wide area of light.


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## mrme (Apr 7, 2006)

Keltec said:


> Princeton Tec Pilot Has anyone used it ?



I have one. I haven't been in any significant caves since I got it last May, though. 

My impression is that it is a pretty good emergency backup. However, I have always hated lights that mount on the side of my head because the glare is visible in my periphial vision. It is made worse by my glasses, but it is bad even without them. 

My biggest beef with the Pilot is that there is no switch lockout feature. It could easily get bumped on inside of a pack. What good is an emergency light if you can't trust the batteries to be good?

I have it mounted on my BD Supernova I retrofitted with a Luxeon. There is room in the battery compartment for a really small LED light that takes those 1220 cells. It was a spot designed for 2 spare bulbs, but I just keep 2 spares in the Bezel where I will need them. This light also has a 6 volt backup battery that will run the LED (in my case the Luxeon) if the AA's stop working. So, in one light I have 3.5 independent light sources. I say .5 because the backup battery is not completely independent, but with it I have 2 independent power sources and 2 independent bulbs. They just share a switch, regulator and one wire.

As for what you want out of a caving light, I would say you want a regulated dimmable incadescent and good LED with good spill. The reason for the dimmable incadescent is that it is much easier on the eyes. When you transition from darkness to light, the warm glow doesn't hurt as bad as the blue piercing light you get from LEDs. LED lights can be really hard on other cavers' eyes in situations where they can see your light. You also get better color retention with an incadescent, which can mean better depth percetion. I don't need to herald the virtues of LEDs as everybody else here does that.


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## firefly99 (Apr 8, 2006)

hi folks, Many thanks for sharing your caving experiences, what lights you use, how to choose lights, light recommendations. Now I had a better understanding of the operational environment for a cave light.


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## paulr (Apr 8, 2006)

Countycomm is now selling its slide switch lights with a spring clip for $3.00:

http://countycomm.com/light.htm

a piece of scotch tape over the switch works well as a lockout til you're ready to use the light.


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## PeLu (Apr 10, 2006)

mrme said:


> The reason for the dimmable incadescent is that it is much easier on the eyes. When you transition from darkness to light, the warm glow doesn't hurt as bad as the blue piercing light you get from LEDs. LED lights can be really hard on other cavers' eyes in situations where they can see your light. You also get better color retention with an incadescent, which can mean better depth percetion.


This highly subjective. I had several cases where white LED lights made things more visiblethan incandescents or carbide light. In one case I could find a rusty spanner in brown mud with a LED light which had been looked for by numerous carbide/incandescent people (back in the 90ies when I was the only one witha LED light here). 
Of course we also had the opposite case when red survey marks are easier to spot with a more reddish light.
All together I have to say that the white LED lights are slightly better (that means the cases were they have advantages are more common than the opposite) in our experience, but of course YMMV.

The light colour/tint is something you get used fastest (from all other features ). 

That the daylight like tint 'hurts your eye' is also a quite subjective observation and not a general rule. 
Of course it is easier when all members of a team use similar lights.
And BTW, white LEDs are available in several different tints, as we all know, but none of the caving light manufacturers uses one of these 'warm white' or similar LEDs up to now.
Why do you think? It would be easy if these 'problems' would be a general issue.


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## veleno (Apr 25, 2006)

PeLu said:


> the ArcAAA for example has turned out to be NOT caving proof here, we had most of them failing.



Could I ask you why? I have understood the Arc AAA was very tough...


I'm also interested in a course of speleology and I was searching informations about the equipment. I have red the carbide lights are the most used, or not?


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## cy (Apr 25, 2006)

ARC AAA's are very tuff in general. if you have an ARC AAA that work very reliable. odds are it will continue to do so. 

I have no documented fact to support this, but it sure seems that AAA alk cells leak more than any other type alk cell. 

most ARC AAA failures I've seen are the result of AAA alk cell leaking, causing corosion in base of tube. This is why new ARC AAA4 has a stainless pin at base. 

so if you use an ARC AAA, use a brand of cell that doesn't leak.


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## veleno (Apr 25, 2006)

Thanks for the answer.


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## jtice (Apr 25, 2006)

I have used a couple Arc AAA and AAs as caving neck lights.
I really like the AA, you would be amazed how bright it is after being totally night adapted in the cave.

I agree with CY, generally, if your Arc AAA or AA is working good for the first couple weeks,
its going to be fine for quite a while.
Some had slight flickering problems, but that usually showed up in the beginning of the lights use.

I have found the Fenix AAA to be am excellent neck light also.

~John


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## veleno (Apr 26, 2006)

So do you think a PT Corona is better than a PT Apex for caving?

Stenlight seems to be great, but it's expensive and I think it's not a good choice for a beginner like me.


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## JonSidneyB (Apr 26, 2006)

The Sten is expensive but not sure why it is not a begineers caving light.

The Cave rescue from NSS said that one of the most common problems where people get injured in a Cave is due to light failure and the person does not have an adequate backup light.

The Sten has been dropped repeatedly from 35feet then swung from its cord to knock chunks from concrete and still function.

The light can be submerged with no problems.

It to me seems to be an extra margin of security.


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## jtice (Apr 26, 2006)

veleno said:


> So do you think a PT Corona is better than a PT Apex for caving?
> 
> Stenlight seems to be great, but it's expensive and I think it's not a good choice for a beginner like me.


Personally, I like a caving headlamp to be pretty floody.
Then have a handlight for throw.

But, I did fins myself wanting more throw from the Corona in large rooms.
But its great for crawlways and small passage.

Its fine if the Apex has throw, great,
just make sure what ever headlamp you get has wide flood also.

~John


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## bwaites (Apr 26, 2006)

While expensive in comparison to some, the StenLight is rock solid, at least in my so far limited experience, and I'm betting the case won't crack like some of the Apex's and others have.

In fact, I think it is the perfect beginners light, because while an experienced caver will have dealt with light loss, a beginner won't. While they learn the skills necessary to protect themselves, having to worry about one less thing failing is a plus in my mind!

I played with the Sten last night quite a bit, and I'm more impressed with it everytime I do. I'm actually looking forward to going camping this weekend just so I can play with it!!

In fact, most of my LED's will be left at home, because I think the Sten will take their place for camping type activities. My only concern is that it doesn't take the cells I usually take camping, 123's, but I'm working on a solution for that. 

If a reflector solution can be worked out, and the typical beam irregularities of optics can be alleviated, it will be the perfect light in my mind. (Don't take that to mean the beam of the Sten isn't good, I just have gotten used to the beams of McGizmo style reflectors and I'm spoiled!!) 

Bill


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## veleno (Apr 26, 2006)

JonSidneyB said:


> The Sten is expensive but not sure why it is not a begineers caving light.



I explain myself better. If I will like the course of speleology I will continue to go caving and so I will buy a Stenlight. I want only to be sure to continue this activity before spending a lot of money. 



> The Cave rescue from NSS said that one of the most common problems where people get injured in a Cave is due to light failure and the person does not have an adequate backup light.



Interesting thing. 

At the beginning I will not be in danger, there will be instructors with a lot of experience. In the future I will be very happy to buy a Stenlight.

However, looking for informations, I have found the carbide light is the principal light to use...


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## PeLu (Apr 27, 2006)

Unrelyable ArcAAA:


veleno said:


> Could I ask you why?


When the ArcAAA appeared, it looked like the perfect backup light to carry on a string around theneck (together with other small items). So, over some while, I ordered many of them for my caving buddies (a lower two digit number all together) . 

They developed several different issues, at least one was hit by the 'chip issue', another one (definitively not from the 'chip issue' series) also had problems with the electronics starting. Some had problems with the crimping and also contact problems at the base (as cy mentioned). The latter was not caused by leaking AAA cells and it was only very few. Most of them failed in the head (easy to proof with changing the tube and cell). 
This multiple failure were enough that people decided that they are very nice lights (actually everybody loved them and still does), but not relyable enough for this specific purpose. 
It seems that carrying a light around your neck while caving is a quite specific challenge. 
And many cavers just do not want to fix such a light. When it starts to make troubles, it is replaced. 
Unfortunely a few of these lights also developed issues after a longer time of use.
And BTW, the lensless design collects lint and dirt around the LED, which is less than ideal.


Funny enough, many cheap lights made no problems. Fortunately nowadays there are lots of alternatives and there is no need to punish these nice, but expensive jewels.

And the best thing is: My ArcAAA UV never had any problems and is my most valuable one.


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## PeLu (Apr 27, 2006)

JonSidneyB said:


> ...NSS said that one of the most common problems where people get injured in a Cave is due to light failure and the person does not have an adequate backup light.


 This regards mostly to untrained, so called 'flashlight cavers'. Especially when people try to find their way without a light. 

This is why I always wrote that relyability is the main thing with a caving light and not brightness. 
And the Stenlight comes close to best British lights (Speleo Technics) at a much smaller case. 
While the front piece is perfect, the connector and battery could still be improved.


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## Ocelot (Apr 28, 2006)

Regarding the Sten as "not a beginners light", I suspect that cost of the light, coupled with a current lack of commitment to caving, are the reasons.

You don't start out with a new sport by buying the most expensive equipment around until you know that you are going to be doing it for a while, and that even assumes that you have the money to buy the gear in the first place. Many cavers in the past didn't have gobs of money to spend on the latest lighting product. That seems to be changing more recently (lots of people with high-tech jobs are going caving).

Some people also don't like the tint of LEDs, and prefer the yellower light of a halogen/krypton/whatever bulb, but they won't know that until they get more experience with what is out there. And some people actually prefer carbide...

Scott


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## cy (Apr 28, 2006)

as an occasional caver, I take a different tack. 

since light failure is high on the list of ways to get hurt caving. if you have the funds, you should get the very best. For an extra margin of safety if nothing else.

then if you find out it's not for you. simply sell off the equipment and recoupe most of your costs. that's a standard tactic for flasholics anyways. 

seems Stenlight is among the very best caving lights currently available.


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## veleno (Apr 28, 2006)

I agree. My considerations were only related to me. During the course of speleology I can't have any serious problem, after that if I continue with speleology I can buy a Stenlight.

However consider that here most of people (or all???!) uses carbide light with Petzl light. 

Perhaps, living in Europe, for me it could be simpler to buy a Speleo Tech from UK, it seems another great headlamp for caving. Anybody has it?
It could be very problematic for me to buy a Stenlight form USA, I have to pay about 30% of value in customs fees...


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## JonSidneyB (Apr 28, 2006)

Ah, the duties do present a barrier. 

I have been curious about spelotech from the UK.


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## PeLu (May 4, 2006)

veleno said:


> buy a Speleo Tech from UK, it seems another great headlamp for caving.


Yes, I had several. They are quite robust and relyable. Customer service will be easier, too.


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## Robocop (May 4, 2006)

I hope this is along the lines of this thread however I have a question in relation to this topic....

I was reading some online material about early caving equipment and it briefly mentioned a headlamp that used some form of flame. It also said many still use this type of set up today however I can not find any information about it. I can not even find the original story however I believe it was called a carbide arc lamp or something similiar.

Anyone know what light the story was talking about and is it true that such old style equipment is still used today? I find it hard to believe that anyone would use an actual flame in todays times with such improved lights available.

How did this old style light work and what was used for fuel?


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## veleno (May 4, 2006)

PeLu said:


> Yes, I had several. They are quite robust and relyable. Customer service will be easier, too.



I'm interested in the Nova 3, so do you suggest it?

Could I ask you where have you bought these lights? In the official site?

Thanks


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## veleno (May 4, 2006)

Robocop said:


> is it true that such old style equipment is still used today? I find it hard to believe that anyone would use an actual flame in todays times with such improved lights available.



In my country people still use them as main lamps.



> How did this old style light work and what was used for fuel?



In italian, sorry... look at the pictures... 
They say these lamps use acetylene and they are good because:

- very white and widespread light 
- good duration
- cheap fuel
- practical. Water can be often found in the cave.


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## PeLu (May 4, 2006)

Robocop said:


> I was reading some online material about early caving equipment and it briefly mentioned a headlamp that used some form of flame. ....I find it hard to believe that anyone would use an actual flame in todays times with such improved lights available.


I'm not shure if you are serious or just kidding, but in the first case, just start a search on carbide lights. 
Why do you assume that nowadays technology is superior an any respect? 
The light quality (amount, distribution etc) is still unbeatable (but depends on you likings). If you do some maintanance carbide lighst are also quite relyable and offer some other benefits (like a source of heat). 

And, BTW, it is a younger technology than an incandescent bulb .-)

veleno, I bought the SpeleoTechnics lights at one of the British vendors (Bernies etc.)


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## veleno (May 4, 2006)

PeLu said:


> veleno, I bought the SpeleoTechnics lights at one of the British vendors (Bernies etc.)



Ok, thanks.


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## dbedit (May 4, 2006)

I have to put in my 2 cents into this thread. For many years I have used a Premier carbide lamps and they were just the thing. But I do think with updated technology they are a bit outdated. A good but nothing fancy carbide will still cost around $60 plus you have to obtain the carbie (expensive to ship) and have a way to keep it dry it the cave, I use a nalgene bottle, then you have to also deal with the spent carbide you must haul out of the cave, plus the regular maintence and repair of the light itsself. Where I live we do alot of vertical caving and as a result I must have an electric primary light anyway, you do not want that open flame near a rope you are hanging on. I would much rather have two $40 each petzel electrics led head lamps than one carbie lamp for the same money. With caving lights, as with most anything, quality and function of design cost more and the Stenlight follows that rule. The stenlight is by all practical purposes a very simple specifically designed for caving light and it preforms that task very well. At a round $310 with a rechargable pack the stenlight over a 5 year period of frequent caving could also prove to be one of the cheapest to operate because you probably will not have to buy batteries, repair or replace the light. But what throws the stenlight into a bargin for me is its ability to multi task for a bike light, and strap mounted head lamp. What was once three lights for me to buy, maintain and feed batteries to is now just one with a rechargable cell.


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## hank (May 4, 2006)

I didn't know about the Stenlight til reading this thread, but I'd consider it a bargain if I were going to set up my caving gear again. And I have five regular and one large size carbide lamps still in good usable condition from a few decades ago when I did a lot of caving.

One thing I'll say for carbide though -- with a carbide lamp, I've had the experience of banging it or dropping it and having the tip fall out (that's the little ceramic plug that makes the flame a nice narrow adjustable one).

And yet the lamp continued to burn, albeit with a rather messy orange flame.

Try that with a flashlight (grin) .... I've never had a carbide lamp fail beyond repair, even when I had to do the repair in the dark by touch.

But first I've got to replace my caving rope, I bought it in 1963 and it's not trustworthy any longer.


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## JonSidneyB (May 4, 2006)

Do replace that rope if you go again. I was at a Grotto meeting last night and someone did some show and tell displaying the rope and how it failed in a cave. Not a pretty thing to happen. 

The Stenlight might be getting better. Not only do I have the lowest price on these anywhere, if testing goes well I will have the only drop in replacement reflectors for these.


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## benh (May 4, 2006)

Very interested in the reflectors. DO you have details yet?


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## JonSidneyB (May 4, 2006)

Don is going to do a bit of experimenting with a Stenlight and reflectors. I am not sure if I should be saying this out here or not yet until this is further along but you might be in the future upgrade these by having them McGizmofied.


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## PeLu (May 5, 2006)

dbedit said:


> I have to put in my 2 cents into this thread.


Yes, you are perfectly right for your circumstances.

But I do use carbide lights for guided tours, it lights up larger caves like nothing else (now) and we get the carbide for free. 

In India, for example, carbide is easy to get, but electricity was unrelyable (but is good now). So the people using carbide had an easier life sometimes. 

And cost is not everything. I do not waste my thoughts to much on how much it will cost me the next decades. 

Carbide lights also offer a source of heat which turned out to be very helpful (at least) at cave accidents and other emergencies. 

Of course they are not that easy to use as a good LED light and need some maintance.


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## Robocop (May 5, 2006)

Yes I was serious as the on line stuff was hard to find as I did not know what the light was actually called. The article I read mentioned briefly that older style caving lights used a flame (however said not much else on the light) so I did a search on cave lights + flame with few results.

I am not saying it is not a good light as I do not even know how it works I just thought is strange that anyone would use an actual flame on their head and I was imagining some huge source of fuel carried around with the light. I found a few more sites that mention the light and I now see that it is a smaller package than what I had imagined.

I have always actually liked the output and color of an actual flame and wanted to know more of how this light worked in such a small package. Very interesting to me. I like the idea of caving however have never really been able to do so. Sounds like something I may try someday if I can find any close by. I did find an article on the place called Mammoth cave in Ky. It is not that far from me really and what an interesting place. I never even imagined places like that existed and it sure did look like a fun place for a flashaholic....also a very dangerous place for anyone who knows nothing of caving like myself.


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## cave dave (May 5, 2006)

JonSidneyB said:


> Don is going to do a bit of experimenting with a Stenlight and reflectors. I am not sure if I should be saying this out here or not yet until this is further along but you might be in the future upgrade these by having them McGizmofied.



I'll be happy to be a betta tester 
I'll arrange a cave trip just to check it out! 
The lack of spill beam is my only real complaint with this light.

- Cave Dave


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## JonSidneyB (May 5, 2006)

Well Cave Dave....

You would have to tell all your caving buddies about me


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## wasBlinded (May 5, 2006)

A heavily stippled reflector option would be great for the Stenlight. 

Even the Aleph2 reflector would probably make the hotspot/corona ratio too high for general caving use, so I hope it would give more of a flood beam than that.

The existing optics aren't really too far from my ideal with a layer of Write-Rite over them, but I have confidence Don will come up with something even nicer.


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## batman (May 5, 2006)

In boyscouts I learned to always have 5 sources of light when caving. As a youngster I never wore helmet mounted flashlights because the caves we explored weren't that spacious,..there was lots of ladder climbing and general clostraphobia too as those caves weren't on any maps, they were just out in the sticks. My mini-maglite (2 AA) did great and I could just hold it in my mouth cigar style through the cramped areas where crawling was necessary. 
PS - Bring a Tazer for bats?


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## JonSidneyB (May 6, 2006)

Don't hurt the bats....we need them to eat mosquitos and they are cool.


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## Ocelot (May 9, 2006)

PeLu said:


> Yes, you are perfectly right for your circumstances.
> 
> In India, for example, carbide is easy to get, but electricity was unrelyable (but is good now). So the people using carbide had an easier life sometimes.



Interesting you mention India...

When I went on an expedition there in 2003, and I didn't bring a carbide light, I was told that I "would regret it". Everyone else used carbide canister lights. Mine was a homemade LED light using 4 Luxeon I LEDs in a series/parallel fashion with redundant current regulators & switches, so that I could use one of two pairs of LEDs or all 4 at once.

We ended up in a different area due to local unrest, and the caves were smaller and there was a bit of crawling & squeezing in sections. While everyone elses carbide tubes were getting caught on projections, or their lights flaming out due to the canister not being upright all the time, I had no problems... And I could crank the brightness up & down quickly when the cave got bigger/smaller.

In addition, I was able to sleep in during mornings instead of having to break the large carbide rocks (and hammers!) into smaller pieces... Afterwards, everyone stated that they wouldn't be bringing carbide lights in the future.

Just another perspective... From a former, reformed carbide user. And yes, I also cave in cold alpine caves and I do miss the warmth occasionally (but just occasionally).

Scott


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## nc987 (May 9, 2006)

speaking of caving? Has anyone here been to the bat caves in Alger, in Washington state? 

Any other washington state cavers here?


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## JonSidneyB (May 9, 2006)

I will be in Washington State for a caving convention.


I just noticed what town you are in. Thats the site of the NSS convention and where CPF member SilverFox lives.


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## PeLu (May 10, 2006)

Ocelot said:


> When I went on an expedition there in 2003, and I didn't bring a carbide light, I was told that I "would regret it".


Not by me .-) 
I did not want to express that carbide lights are better in any respect (which they are clearly not), more that there are several caving conditions where thebetter illumination is worth the trouble.

BTW, this year I changed the numerous carbide lights we have to lend to locals and other people to LED lights .-)

Carbide lights are not very good for beginners or non-cavers. Sometimes frustrating.
(and they also can perform well in crawls when set up correctly).


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## dbedit (May 10, 2006)

Robocop- Brother, Mammoth is big an well worth the visit. But there are also good caves closer to Birmingham. There are more caves in AL than in any other state. Just up the street from you in Warrior, AL is "Banger" or "Bangor" Cave it was an old "speak easy" during prohabition and is a very cool fun little cave that you just need a little gear to explore. It is very small dry cave about 30minto explore all of it, not exactly a real senic type cave but fun and interesting none the less. to see where the stage for the preformers was the bar and the brothel in the back where the individual rooms were. This is a very flat safe cave for a start.


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## Robocop (May 11, 2006)

Dbedit thanks for the information and I never thought to start with my own state...who would have thought that Alabama had so many caves.

I remember hearing of some caves however it was long past and I just never thought about checking here. I do know of a place called Crystal Caverns and have even camped there as a teenager (long ago)

It is only about 10 miles from me now however I believe it has been condemned. Seems like it was only about 3/4 of a mile deep however very dark and very cool to visit. The funny part is that back then I was not into lights and I think I only took a plastic 2 dollar light with me....man how times change as now it would most likely take me an hour just to choose one of my many lights to take.


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## JonSidneyB (May 11, 2006)

Robocop,

Here are some NSS cave clubs *grottos* in your state.

http://www.caves.org/io/iolookup.php?state=AL

They will help you out if you want to get started.


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## Robocop (May 11, 2006)

Thanks for the links Jon....I have just found many places in my state. I was amazed at the amount of cool places right in my back yard. I am now looking at Valhalla....Bangor....and Fern caves all located in Alabama. I read on line that Alabama has over 3,000 caves.

Maybe I can find a use for some of my many hobby lights after all. I have several of the Ultra-G models left over that would be perfect for an extra carry light. Interesting read here I must say and maybe I have found a new hobby as well.


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## Lunarmodule (May 11, 2006)

I'm sorry to intrude and take a little detour here with the flow of things, but could someone explain to me what carbide lights are, and how they work. I know nothing about spelunking but admire those that explore caves. Claustrophobia does me in, I cant partake. 

I very recently obtained a Stenlight and am thoroughly impressed with its capabilities and incredible analog design. The regulation is superb, and the details of its construction and circuit design result in a light which has no equal that I know of. I was considering the possibility of changing optics thats why I jumped in here as I noticed that topic being presently discussed.

I'm a bit confused about the mention of using reflectors with the Stenlight. How is this accomplished? 

I really am eager to hear about carbide lights. I'm going to try Google-ing and see what turns up. A new (to me) type of light.... intersting to say the least.


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## David_Campen (May 11, 2006)

"carbide" means calcium carbide. Calcium carbide reacts with water to produce acetylene, a combustible gas, which is then burnt to produce illumination.


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## arkcaver (May 12, 2006)

Heres a quick primer on carbide lamps. If you want to learn more go to http://www.caves.org/member/mfraley/

Calcium carbide is a dry, rock-like chemical that reacts with water to produce acetelyne gas. This gas is then piped thru a small tip to produce a gas jet, which is burned to produce light. The 1st carbide lamps were made around 1900, and they became poplular (at least in the US) in the 1920s. They were used for bike lamps, car headlamps, miners hand-carried lamps, and cap lamps. 

Belt generator style carbide lamps are newer. A larger tubular generator is usually worn around the waist (hence the name belt generator) and a long tube connects the generator to the headpiece. These are usually vertical flame lamps, as opposed to the horizontal flame of a cap light. Because of the vertical flame the common nicknames for these style lamps are "ceiling smoker" and "ceiling burner".

The only two companies that I know of that are currently making carbide lamps are Petzl and J. K. Dey & Sons. J.K. Dey & Sons out of India makes a traditional cap headlamp, several hand-held carbide lights, and a belt generator. Petzl makes a belt generator and a matching headpiece. 








The top part of the lamp is the water resevior. The bottom screws off and contains the carbide. A lever on the top of the lamp controls the rate of water dripping into the carbide. Pretty simple design, and very durable. The lamp I use regularly was made in 1928.


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## wquiles (May 12, 2006)

arkcaver said:


> Pretty simple design, and very durable. The lamp I use regularly was made in 1928.


 :wow: 

That is pretty awesome!. That is what I call durable :rock: 

Will


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## JonSidneyB (May 13, 2006)

Lunarmodule,

The use of reflectors in the Stenlights will be an aftermarket additions. McGizmo is working on that for me.


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## Robocop (May 14, 2006)

I really do like looking at the old style lights....It is amazing how far things have progressed over the years.

I am still curious as to why anyone would choose the carbide over Luxeon for caving. I read the link provided by Arkcaver and it was a very helpful link however it pointed out several problems. It said carbide was classified as a hazardous material and was sometimes very hard to find and very costly to buy and ship when it was found.

Now considering that what makes the carbide lamps so desireable by many to this day. Does it have a very long runtime or is it very durable or does it have some other quality that makes it such a wanted item by some people. I also thought about the areas where it is used and that is mostly underground. Is it not a bad idea to use a flame underground due to fire hazards from gases or maybe a cave in where oxygen would be first priority....just saying that a flame burns oxygen and if stuck underground for a long time a light that consumed no oxygen would seem to be a better choice.

I like the light and the old style looks however can not find anything as to why it is still in use to this day. So what are the best qualities of the carbide and do any of the negatives I wrote above apply.?


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## wasBlinded (May 14, 2006)

The carbide lamp provides a nice floody light at a warm color temperature. Runtimes of the self-contained ones are around 2 hours I think, though I suppose it could be stretched.

People also like them for the warmth they can provide.

Disadvantages include sometimes finicky operation and the need to dig the used stuff out of the generator and pack it out. Plus, you don't want to use it when on a rope.


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