# All those "High CRI" threads over there in the LED forum..........



## DayofReckoning (May 23, 2018)

Meanwhile, I'm outside here enjoying beautiful, full spectrum light from my Incandescents like my A2, E2E, 10X Dominator, M6, etc.  

Things just look so natural and beautiful under Incandescent light, and almost seem to have a "depth" to them, something that, IMO, is still lacking even under the best High CRI LED's, everything just looks fake and flat to me with them.

They say imitation is the most sincere form of flattery. Well, incandesents should certainly feel flattered. Sorry "High CRI LED's", you've had a lot of years to catch up, and I'm afraid you still aren't there yet. 

My biggest question is, will you ever be?


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## archimedes (May 24, 2018)

What are the best LED emitter(s) you have tried ?


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## twistedraven (May 24, 2018)

Have you ever tried to discern a navy sock from a black sock under incandescent lighting? CRI is just a a number-- and a small look at the overall picture of lighting quality. 2700 kelvin bulbs and 3200 kelvin bulbs are pleasantly warm, but they're not the ultimate when it comes to light quality.


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## DayofReckoning (May 24, 2018)

archimedes said:


> What are the best LED emitter(s) you have tried ?



I could answer that, but it would be irrelevant, as no LED can match the quality of light of a properly driven incandescent lamp. Not opinion, just fact.


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## DayofReckoning (May 24, 2018)

twistedraven said:


> Have you ever tried to discern a navy sock from a black sock under incandescent lighting? CRI is just a a number-- and a small look at the overall picture of lighting quality. 2700 kelvin bulbs and 3200 kelvin bulbs are pleasantly warm, but they're not the ultimate when it comes to light quality.



I can tell you the ultimate in quality of light does NOT come from an LED, of any type.


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## twistedraven (May 24, 2018)

This type of discussion isn't worthwhile unless you contribute thoughtful posts.


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## archimedes (May 24, 2018)

DayofReckoning said:


> I could answer that, but it would be irrelevant, as no LED can match a properly driven incandescent lamp.



Are you speaking from experience, or from theory ?


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## DayofReckoning (May 24, 2018)

archimedes said:


> Are you speaking from experience, or from theory ?



Can you name an LED that can operate in the full spectrum of light that incandescents produce?


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## DayofReckoning (May 24, 2018)

twistedraven said:


> This type of discussion isn't worthwhile unless you contribute thoughtful posts.



I was just poking fun at the LED's trying to imitate incandescent light. It is interesting that you say my post isn't worthwhile, mean while taking time to post in it and give your opinion. :shakehead


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## twistedraven (May 24, 2018)

Violet LEDs with red, green, and blue phosphors over them have very high color rendering, including deep red and cyan output. What's even more important though is that they can be had in neutral white color temperatures, making for balanced lighting in color-critical environments.

Incandescents are stuck being extremely warm, making for unbalanced lighting. The very low blue output is great for nighttime and helps us fall asleep better, but you don't see color critical workplaces running incandescents. Hell, most don't even run violet LEDs, because a standard 85-90 CRI 4000k fluorescent tube is more than enough.


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## DayofReckoning (May 24, 2018)

twistedraven said:


> Violet LEDs with red, green, and blue phosphors over them have very high color rendering, including deep red and cyan output. What's even more important though is that they can be had in neutral white color temperatures, making for balanced lighting in color-critical environments.
> 
> Incandescents are stuck being extremely warm, making for unbalanced lighting. The very low blue output is great for nighttime and helps us fall asleep better, but you don't see color critical workplaces running incandescents. Hell, most don't even run violet LEDs, because a standard 85-90 CRI 4000k fluorescent tube is more than enough.



My question is can any LED light source achieve "FULL" spectrum lighting?


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## archimedes (May 24, 2018)

DayofReckoning said:


> Can you name an LED that can operate in the full spectrum of light that incandescents produce?



I don't see where I said, or even implied, any such thing.

I simply asked you what you were using as your point(s) of reference for comparison.

Virtually everyone has vast experience with a wide variety of incandescent lamps.

But *not* everyone, even here on CPF, has personal experience with the very best LED emitters currently available.

This is an area of technology with rapid and ongoing improvements.

You were the one wanting to discuss and compare CRI between incandescent and LED sources of illumination.

I think it is a fair question. Have you personally used any of the new violet-pumped emitters ?

And, if so, perhaps you would care to share your thoughts on those ... objective, subjective, or otherwise.

No need to get upset or defensive.

If not, no big deal. But may be worth a look, just to keep an open mind, all the same :shrug:


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## DayofReckoning (May 24, 2018)

archimedes said:


> I don't see where I said, or even implied, any such thing.
> 
> I simply asked you what you were using as your point(s) of reference for comparison.
> 
> ...



Not upset or defensive at all  

I am sincerely asking, can any LED achieve the full spectrum of light that an incandescent can produce?


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## twistedraven (May 24, 2018)

DayofReckoning said:


> My question is can any LED light source achieve "FULL" spectrum lighting?




Damn near close, and balanced spectral output to boot (courtesy of Maukka's testisng of the Nichia Optisolis LED):









The most important thing here though is BALANCED spectral output. If color accuracy is to be considered, then you have to consider the overall spectral output of a light. Something which an incandescent is horrible at. The ONLY thing that produces a balanced spectral output while being truly full spectrum is mid-day sunlight.


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## archimedes (May 24, 2018)

Spectral curves for incandescent, high CRI LED, and daylight, here ...

https://www.yujiintl.com/high-cri-led-lighting

... towards the middle of the page


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## DayofReckoning (May 24, 2018)

Very interesting discussion here. I didn't expect me poking a little fun at LED's trying to imitate incandescent lighting would turn into such a technical discussion.

For reference, the best High CRI LED I've seen in person is the Nichia 219B in a Malkoff, which I had a brief period to compare to a few of my better incandescents, and in my personal opinion, it fell far short in the quality of light.

I will admit I wasn't aware of some of the advances LED's have made in the light spectrum/CRI area in recent years, but most importantly here is, none of the fancy new fangled LED's are currently in flashlights, at least not that I'm aware of.

So, it's clear that, despite getting "darn close" they still aren't there quite yet. Until then, I'll keep using Incandescents.


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## archimedes (May 24, 2018)

Hmmm, a technical discussion on lighting you say ? ... 

Although I do not have vast personal experience with ultra-high CRI emitters, of the more common high CRI LED options, there are several that I generally prefer over the N219B.

You don't mention the bin of the Nichia you tried, but the CCT and tint can have a large perceptual effect as well, and you might find a warmer emitter more appealing.

It may surprise you that I am a great fan of incandescents, but have still found a few LED that impress me greatly.


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## id30209 (May 24, 2018)

After a decade on LED's (sst90, xhp70.2, XPG, XML, Nichia219C 90+ etc) just recently out of boredom i deceided to "upgrade" my old 2DMag with Jimmy's PhD driver and FM 6.35 socket with 1164 bulb and BOOOOM. I saw colors as they truely are. I forgot that incans are so far the only true color source of light. I don't use any fancy calculation or meassurement but poorman method, can i see it and what i see across the field. And here i'm now, ordered bunch of incan stuff and mod kits AGAIN cause LED's no matter how cheap or expenssive they are just can't do the job properly. DayofReckoning i agree with you 100%. Btw i still have 10+ led flashlights but now they are picking up dust.


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## MikeSalt (May 24, 2018)

A well-driven incandescent is a wonderful thing, such as my 2D ROP. However, for a balance of size, runtime, durability, brightness and cost, Hi-CRI LEDs do it for me.


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## id30209 (May 24, 2018)

*All those &quot;High CRI&quot; threads over there in the LED forum..........*



MikeSalt said:


> A well-driven incandescent is a wonderful thing, such as my 2D ROP. However, for a balance of size, runtime, durability, brightness and cost, Hi-CRI LEDs do it for me.



Well, give it a look on Fivemega 2x18350 FM1794 1000lumen flashlight. You'll change your mind my brother


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## iamlucky13 (May 24, 2018)

DayofReckoning said:


> Can you name an LED that can operate in the full spectrum of light that incandescents produce?



I'll accept that the point of your original post was to poke fun at LED's imitating what incandescents always had, and I smiled at it, but since the point of CRI isn't actually a perfect Gaussian spectral graph, but rather to see better, twistedraven does have a relevant point when he asks about blue socks versus black socks.

I've tried dressing by Maglite before, and that's a place where I have a bit of trouble. Flip the switch to turn on the overhead lights and it's not generally a problem - more lumens gets the overall blue output high enough to discriminate black from dark blue, but not as easily as a higher color temperature does. For as much as I still like warmth of a halogen light, there's a practical ceiling to incandescent temperatures.


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## trananh (May 24, 2018)

Incandescents produces full visible light spectrum, white leds also produce full visible light spectrum, the difference is how different wavelengths are distributed, each source of light produces different type of full spectrum. So nothing is perfect light, it depends on the definition of what is a perfect light source. in my opinion, incandescent is not perfect because it produces too much red light


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## Modernflame (May 24, 2018)

I prefer hot wire light fixtures in my home because the color rendition is obviously superior to *most* of the commercially available LED replacements. Incandescent lights render color beautifully, but they come into their own at higher output levels. By comparison, a lower powered incandescent flashlight, in my opinion, casts an orange hue, which skews my real world perception of certain colors. I find that this is easily remedied with an LED at a higher CCT, especially if the CRI is above 90.


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## markr6 (May 24, 2018)

I was always impressed with the incandescent GE Reveal bulbs for years. Then I tried the LED counterpart and I'm still just as happy. The output is a little weak, but you can pay up and get the 75 or 100w equivalent.


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## etc (May 24, 2018)

archimedes said:


> Spectral curves for incandescent, high CRI LED, and daylight, here ...
> 
> https://www.yujiintl.com/high-cri-led-lighting
> 
> ... towards the middle of the page


\

Hm, I should try one.


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## LeanBurn (May 24, 2018)

I put a Yuji in several Mini Maglite 2xAAA flashlights. The output is the same ~9 lumens. The durability, longevity and run time of the Yuji 5mm LED is exponentially better than the filament bulb. More importantly, the Yuji is so close to the incan bulb with tint and color rendition it is surprising.


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## Lumen83 (May 24, 2018)

I'm going to admit the short comings of my technical knowledge up front. And, I typically prefer Incandescent bulbs to LEDs. But, last night I noticed something that took me by suprise. Typically, I notice that even the best LEDs in terms of tint and CRI that I own do not seem to render color as well as my closest to neutral tint incans. But, I was looking at one of my flower beds last night and the overall bed looked much better under incandescent light. However, when I got up close to examine one particular allium, I noticed that under the High CRI Neutral LED, the purple colors were much more vivid and pronounced compared to the green on the stem. Whereas the warm tint of the incan seemed to add too much of its own tint to the flower which left the contrast less pronounced. I was really surprised by this. Again, not a technical guy here. But, I saw what I saw.


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## DayofReckoning (May 24, 2018)

Glad to see there are still some of us that still enjoy and utilize Incandescent lighting. It almost seems to me as if there has been a sort of resurgence in the world of incandescent flashlights here amongst us flashaholics in recent years. Maybe that's just wishful thinking.

When I look at the light glow from a hot filament burning, the warm of it's light, and the relaxing feeling it brings, sometimes I almost wonder if it is something primitive that is being triggered within our DNA. Maybe I'm just crazy 

On to something else, can anyone explain this. I have noticed that in very heavy fog, or rainfall, incandescent beams seem to cut through it much better than an LED. Most LED's I've used, it's almost as if the light is being reflected back at you. Is there a scientific explanation for this?


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## staticx57 (May 24, 2018)

etc said:


> \
> 
> Hm, I should try one.



You'll be one of the first to put a violet pump Yuji into a flashlight then  I have only seen tests made with some of the VTC but no serious mods.


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## id30209 (May 24, 2018)

DayofReckoning said:


> Glad to see there are still some of us that still enjoy and utilize Incandescent lighting. It almost seems to me as if there has been a sort of resurgence in the world of incandescent flashlights here amongst us flashaholics in recent years. Maybe that's just wishful thinking.
> 
> When I look at the light glow from a hot filament burning, the warm of it's light, and the relaxing feeling it brings, sometimes I almost wonder if it is something primitive that is being triggered within our DNA. Maybe I'm just crazy
> 
> On to something else, can anyone explain this. I have noticed that in very heavy fog, or rainfall, incandescent beams seem to cut through it much better than an LED. Most LED's I've used, it's almost as if the light is being reflected back at you. Is there a scientific explanation for this?



You're not alone in incan world. I just switched back from LED's...
Regarding LED and fog i've noticed the same thing. I think it's related with wavelength, not sure. But when i see french still use yellow headlights (real yellow, not yellowish or smtg) and in fog they see clear then i'm sure it has something with wavelength xmitted.


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## twistedraven (May 24, 2018)

DayofReckoning said:


> Glad to see there are still some of us that still enjoy and utilize Incandescent lighting. It almost seems to me as if there has been a sort of resurgence in the world of incandescent flashlights here amongst us flashaholics in recent years. Maybe that's just wishful thinking.
> 
> When I look at the light glow from a hot filament burning, the warm of it's light, and the relaxing feeling it brings, sometimes I almost wonder if it is something primitive that is being triggered within our DNA. Maybe I'm just crazy
> 
> On to something else, can anyone explain this. I have noticed that in very heavy fog, or rainfall, incandescent beams seem to cut through it much better than an LED. Most LED's I've used, it's almost as if the light is being reflected back at you. Is there a scientific explanation for this?



Rayleigh scattering.


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## DayofReckoning (May 24, 2018)

twistedraven said:


> Rayleigh scattering.



Is this something that LED's can ever overcome?


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## twistedraven (May 24, 2018)

DayofReckoning said:


> Is this something that LED's can ever overcome?




Yes, it's mostly just an issue of predominant blue spikes in LEDs. Warm LEDs tend to have less of a blue spike, and violet pumped LEDs that are warm tinted have spectral balances that are very close to incandescents-- they won't get affected by such scattering.


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## Modernflame (May 24, 2018)

Lumen83 said:


> ... However, when I got up close to examine one particular allium, I noticed that under the High CRI Neutral LED, the purple colors were much more vivid and pronounced compared to the green on the stem. Whereas the warm tint of the incan seemed to add too much of its own tint to the flower which left the contrast less pronounced. I was really surprised by this. Again, not a technical guy here. But, I saw what I saw.



That's exactly what I meant about the incandescent light casting an orange hue.


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## Alaric Darconville (May 24, 2018)

id30209 said:


> But when i see french still use yellow headlights (real yellow, not yellowish or smtg) and in fog they see clear then i'm sure it has something with wavelength xmitted.


The requirement for selective yellow headlamps in France was eliminated in '93; not many cars left that still have them.

No visible light "cuts through fog". This is one of the most persistent myths ever, right up there with golf balls containing a deadly poison and Dr. Pepper being made from prune juice.



twistedraven said:


> Rayleigh scattering.


Rayleigh scattering has nothing to do with it since that requires particles to be equal in size to, or smaller than, the wavelength of the light. Fog and rain droplets are far, far too large for Rayleigh scattering to occur.


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## MikeSalt (May 24, 2018)

*Re: All those &quot;High CRI&quot; threads over there in the LED forum..........*



id30209 said:


> Well, give it a look on Fivemega 2x18350 FM1794 1000lumen flashlight. You'll change your mind my brother



My wallet does not thank you. A ROP in your pocket, that's going down on the wish list.


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## twistedraven (May 24, 2018)

Alaric Darconville said:


> The requirement for selective yellow headlamps in France was eliminated in '93; not many cars left that still have them.
> 
> No visible light "cuts through fog". This is one of the most persistent myths ever, right up there with golf balls containing a deadly poison and Dr. Pepper being made from prune juice.
> 
> ...




Okay, specfically rayleigh scattering or not, the shorter wavelengths scatter more from the particles and moisture in the air than the longer wavelengths.


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## Alaric Darconville (May 24, 2018)

twistedraven said:


> Okay, specfically rayleigh scattering or not, the shorter wavelengths scatter more from the particles and moisture in the air than the longer wavelengths.


Not to any extent that causes us any problems. All the wavelengths will scatter (asymptotically to) equally, and will be reflected around and back to our eyes equally. It's what our eyes themselves do with light tending towards blue that is the problem.


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## ampdude (May 24, 2018)

markr6 said:


> I was always impressed with the incandescent GE Reveal bulbs for years. Then I tried the LED counterpart and I'm still just as happy. The output is a little weak, but you can pay up and get the 75 or 100w equivalent.



I honestly think those are terrible bulbs. They are filtered towards blue to have output closer to a typical LED.


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## bykfixer (May 24, 2018)

In the 80's I used to wonder why speaker companies touted abilities to produce frequencies way above and below my range of hearing. SPL's (sound pressure levels) mattered more to me. My ears heard what they heard. 

Same with flashlights these days. Charts n graphs tell one story that eyes don't see. Tint matters more to me.


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## gurdygurds (May 24, 2018)

Dilly Dilly!

edit: I’m dillying this post because that’s how I see it. Sometimes things are quite close and I lean towards convenience. I LOVE film photography, but the time invested and costs involved arent things I can keep up with right now. So I try to mimic it best I can with digital. Same with flashlights. An E1E looks like the coolest light ever, but I’m sure I’d get tired of buying batteries and bulbs for it. QUOTE=LeanBurn;5209798]I put a Yuji in several Mini Maglite 2xAAA flashlights. The output is the same ~9 lumens. The durability, longevity and run time of the Yuji 5mm LED is exponentially better than the filament bulb. More importantly, the Yuji is so close to the incan bulb with tint and color rendition it is surprising.[/QUOTE]


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## gurdygurds (May 24, 2018)

In the same vein, it’d be cool do the Pepsi challenge between an Incan and say a warm yuji to see if people could tell the difference reliably. I’ve The seen the same done with film v digital photography.


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## id30209 (May 25, 2018)

bykfixer said:


> In the 80's I used to wonder why speaker companies touted abilities to produce frequencies way above and below my range of hearing. SPL's (sound pressure levels) mattered more to me. My ears heard what they heard.
> 
> Same with flashlights these days. Charts n graphs tell one story that eyes don't see. Tint matters more to me.



True words...


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## ma tumba (May 25, 2018)

*All those &quot;High CRI&quot; threads over there in the LED forum..........*



bykfixer said:


> In the 80's I used to wonder why speaker companies touted abilities to produce frequencies way above and below my range of hearing. SPL's (sound pressure levels) mattered more to me. My ears heard what they heard.
> 
> Same with flashlights these days. Charts n graphs tell one story that eyes don't see. Tint matters more to me.



I think, in part, because people are different. I know some, extremely sensitive to ultra low sounds and I personally heard well above 20khz when I was young. Same for colors, you always have those 1-10% that just see the difference.

Btw, I was amazed to the the difference in color rendering, provided by the new Optisolii just because the blue peak was shifted to the violet. And I dont see any special tint on white wall


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## night.hoodie (Jun 16, 2018)

twistedraven said:


> but you don't see color critical workplaces running incandescents. Hell, most don't even run violet LEDs, because a standard 85-90 CRI 4000k fluorescent tube is more than enough.



This statement is patently false at worst, wishful exaggeration at best, unless you are being extraordinarily loose with the definition of "color critical workplaces." I worked in color prepress for 20 years, never saw an LED in the color shop, and when push comes to shove, the preferred favorite light for proofing was the largest incandescent in the neighborhood, i.e. the Sun. You can't proof color with 85-90CRI, not accurately. We used fluorescents sometimes, but not for critical color work, but halogen instead.


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## night.hoodie (Jun 16, 2018)

bykfixer said:


> In the 80's I used to wonder why speaker companies touted abilities to produce frequencies way above and below my range of hearing. SPL's (sound pressure levels) mattered more to me. My ears heard what they heard.



Presumably, hypersonics and harmonics above human range of hearing can have an effect on the frequencies we can hear, but much depends on the room. The sound sources being recorded and reproduced, such as cymbals, have hypersonics, so to faithfully duplicate them, they should be included in the recording and reproduction. That's one of the theories, anyway. I think another theory for this ability is metaphorically similar to why speedometers in many cars have a higher gauge top speed than the fastest speed that car will ever go, or metaphorically why certain materials are chosen in engineering that vastly are above and beyond the needed specification for the application.


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## ampdude (Jun 16, 2018)

The best source of light that we have all evolved under to see things is the sun. The closer any light source comes to replicating that, the better we can see things.

Our sun is orange looking through the filter of our mostly nitrogen (blue) and oxygen (green) atmosphere, the majority of its light output is green, and we are most visually sensitive to this color.

A well driven incan, and many HID lights still seem to reproduce color and details more than even the best phosphor coated HCRI led's. I believe this is a combination of the larger surface area of the LED emitter, and the blue spectrum that most light emitting diodes produce by default. I believe things will continue to get better, but right now LED's only win in efficiency. Which they always did from the beginning.

I've always referred to an LED light source as one that "spreads shadows". You can't tell what is going on as well because the light is confusing the matter of what you are looking at.


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## Modernflame (Jun 16, 2018)

ampdude said:


> I've always referred to an LED light source as one that "spreads shadows". You can't tell what is going on as well because the light is confusing the matter of what you are looking at.



I held a similar opinion of LED's when they were first used in flashlights, but I don't find this to be true anymore. Even the "bad" ones are pretty decent now.


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## bykfixer (Jun 16, 2018)

Even bad flashlights aint bad anymore.


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