# Surefires in CPF



## Federal LG (Mar 11, 2009)

Just a curiosity, based on this thread:

https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/225547&page=3

*How many Surefire lights do you have ?

How many SF lights are in CPFer´s hands ?

*Incans or LEDs, it doesn´t matter. It all counts equally...

Your Surefire lights must be original ones. A Surefire modded body is not an original Surefire anymore! (duh!)

If you voted in "10 or more..." option, please tell us how many do you have, exactly.

Thanks for your answer...


----------



## DaFABRICATA (Mar 11, 2009)

I have over 100.


----------



## bullfrog (Mar 11, 2009)

*13* at this moment

Had 20+ at one point

My next Surfires will be the A2L, UB3 and LX1


----------



## jirik_cz (Mar 11, 2009)

I'm missing one option: *0

*


----------



## Size15's (Mar 11, 2009)

I guess I'll have to vote 'ten or more' since there isn't an option for 'about 100' :devil:


----------



## LukeA (Mar 11, 2009)

jirik_cz said:


> I'm missing one option: *0
> 
> *



Same here.


----------



## Mjolnir (Mar 11, 2009)

I really think there should be a "zero" option. I would be more interested to see what percentage of forum-goers have surefires than to see how many they have.


----------



## jp2515 (Mar 11, 2009)

Currently got 4.


----------



## H2Orower (Mar 11, 2009)

13 or 14, depending on whether or not you include the Hurricane Light. My lights are all listed on my signature line below.


----------



## Size15's (Mar 11, 2009)

Well if Federal LG doesn't or can't edit the poll, I can.
We can only have ten voting choices so we'll have to ditch a choice...
Or we start again with something like this:

Zero
1
2
3
4
5
6
7-10
11-20
21+


----------



## saabgoblin (Mar 11, 2009)

6 Total
A2-Green, E2d, 6PGM, 6pBlack-OldKL3, Old Modded L1-DaFab, and a Lego E1e, body awaiting me at the post office.


----------



## Federal LG (Mar 11, 2009)

The initial idea is quite simple: know how many Surefire lights are in CPFer´s hands. Period.

I mean, we don´t want to work with percentage, or something like "number of SF lights */* numbers of CPFers". 

Just curiosity... and remember, if you have MORE than 10, you should specify how many in your post.


----------



## carrot (Mar 11, 2009)

Jesus you're going to make me count? Lemme go look...

Edit: I have at least 12.


----------



## baterija (Mar 11, 2009)

I *have* 2 and selected that option. One of those was bought with taxpayer money, not a private purchase. Since the idea was assessing CPF as a market, 1 would probably be more accurate.


----------



## 276 (Mar 11, 2009)

I think i counted correctly its 10 even.


----------



## Federal LG (Mar 11, 2009)

*2.110* *SUREFIRE LIGHTS AND COUNTING... * :devil: :thumbsup:

Amazing!




Updated in March, 17th - last count from user bagman.

(not exact numbers!)


----------



## kelmo (Mar 11, 2009)

I've got 15 and my wife has 2!

Me:
E1e w/Aussie Minitower
E1L w/single stage KX1
E2O
E2D (the progenitor, it got me started on the buying SF products)
E2e
E2x-Single stage KX2 (cat urine green model, I kept it because it really works well illuminating foliage)+E2 Tube+McClickie Switch
L4 upgraded w/KX2C
A2
L1 (latest version)
L2
6P
6PDL w/BOG Cree Super Premium Drop-in
9P w/KL3+FM34 (my truck light)
Poorman's M4 (KT2+9P tube+A19)
M6

Wife
E1L w/KL1
G2 w/P60L


----------



## KeyGrip (Mar 11, 2009)

I technically have 5, but my E1e was assembled from used parts.


----------



## chaoss (Mar 11, 2009)

I have one, there are too many other great lights out there.


----------



## greenLED (Mar 11, 2009)

Down to 6 from over a dozen.


----------



## GreyShark (Mar 11, 2009)

So far we have 41 Surefire owners. 36%, the largest group, own 10 or more.

Neat idea for a thread! :thumbsup:


----------



## american lockpicker (Mar 11, 2009)

I have 1 Surefire its a black 6p w/p60. I would have more but they are expensive. Also I would rather see high prices than they be made in china or assembled in Mexico.


----------



## scottaw (Mar 11, 2009)

I have 4 right now, but i sold off maybe 5 more and who knows what i'll buy today.


----------



## carrot (Mar 11, 2009)

Make that 15 Surefires, not 12 as I originally guessed.


----------



## dilbert (Mar 11, 2009)

I actually had to go count :duh2:

Just 8


----------



## Black Rose (Mar 11, 2009)

As of right now, I have a whopping 0 (zero) Surefire lights.

I may pick up a new G2 incan for $36 as a host, but haven't fully decided.


----------



## Owen (Mar 11, 2009)

Federal LG said:


> *How many Surefire lights do you have ?
> 
> How many SF lights are in CPFer´s hands ?
> 
> ...


I don't mean to clutter this up, but I have a feeling I am not alone in this. 
I've had maybe 25+. Currently have 7. 
Thing is, none of them are in stock form. They all have parts from other lights, accessories, aftermarket bulbs, drop-ins, mods, etc.
So, technically I have *0*???
I'm not sure if that serves the purpose of the poll or not


----------



## Sgt. LED (Mar 11, 2009)

I have had over 20 at one time. I am at 13 right now.

I* DO* count mods since when I bought them they were stock and that counts into the bottom line of Surefire that I as a CPF'er have attributed to. I mod every light to some degree reguardless of the brand.
I do believe that is the overall gist of this thread, yes? The supposed impact of CPF on Surefire's earnings.

Some believe it is neglible, others believe it is surely noticeable. I am sure we count some but I doubt we really matter to SF overall reguardless of $$ spent with them. I don't really blame them either, we are a very difficult bunch to cater to!


----------



## Guy's Dropper (Mar 11, 2009)

Yikes! 38% of you have 10 or more?oo:
I have an E2e, and I'm about to get a 9p, so 2.


----------



## griff (Mar 11, 2009)

http://i210.photobucket.com/albums/bb139/griffm5/Surefire1.jpg

*[over-size image replaced by link]*


----------



## Guy's Dropper (Mar 11, 2009)

> Maybe if we start a poll asking:
> 
> *Do you have Surefire lights ?*
> *X* yes or *X* no


If the purpose of this thread was also to find out what percentage of CPFers own Surefire lights at all, why is there no option for 0?


----------



## Blindasabat (Mar 12, 2009)

E1even
1 A
2 C
4 E
4 L


----------



## 1996alnl (Mar 12, 2009)

I have five.:thumbsup:


----------



## Outdoors Fanatic (Mar 12, 2009)

23 and counting.


----------



## Zeige (Mar 12, 2009)

Iam up to 12, plenty more to come. Gotta Love Surefire!


----------



## wadus (Mar 12, 2009)

I also fall into the 0 category, so I will withhold my vote until the poll is changed, or I will just refrain altogether. I plan to get a SF before too many more light purchases and have been eyeing the L1, but I have other lights that would fill out my needs better at this point. 

I'm calling the post office in the morning to find out if my Ra Twisty is there yet. I will just go ahead and take it off their hands on my way to work so my mail lady doesn't have to lug that big, huge package around while delivering everyone else's mail. I'm such a caring and thoughtful guy :naughty:


----------



## Niconical (Mar 12, 2009)

12 completely stock, + a 6P with a Malkoff M60W.


----------



## Bruce B (Mar 12, 2009)

I got 1 so far, even if it is currently out of commission.


----------



## hurricane (Mar 12, 2009)

Just one: a U2 Ultra. Someday ... some year ... when SureFire releases the lights they've been taunting us with, I may have 2 even 3.


----------



## prime77 (Mar 12, 2009)

I have 13. That seems like a unlucky number......I must buy some more.:twothumbs


----------



## PhantomPhoton (Mar 12, 2009)

I have two-and-a-half. One L2, one A2, and one Laser Products 6P host for a Malkoff. I went ahead and voted 3 for simplicity's sake. :thinking:


----------



## importculture (Mar 12, 2009)

I currently have 149 surefires that I can get to not including spare led heads. Some of the others along with some laser products lights are in bins that are under other bins. Also doesn't include the many more lights that I've purchased and have given to both friends and family. Also doesn't include the prepaid preorders for last years new releases from surefire.


----------



## angelofwar (Mar 12, 2009)

Let's See..

1 C2
1 C3
2 6P's
4 G2's
2 G3's
1 E1E
1 E2E
1 E2L
1 L1
1 L4
1 HL1-A-TN
1 918FA
1 Scout light

18 total...I have a few stock SF acessories on some of them, so I'll consider them stock. 19 once I get my Saint and the new LX1.


----------



## Patriot (Mar 12, 2009)

Somewhere around 25...give a couple perhaps. 

Just too lazy to mentally count them this late.


----------



## Monocrom (Mar 12, 2009)

bullfrog said:


> *13* at this moment.


 
Same here.

I'd have more... But Surefire didn't release some new models last year.

Here's my list:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

M6
G2
L4
L5
E2D
C2 w/ P61 lamp
E2E (Two-tone. Black E2E bezel & tailcap. HAIII E2E body).
E2E w/ Optics HQ Q5 LED head + E2D tailcap (All black).
E2E w/ Optics HQ Q5 LED head + McGizmo McClicky (All HAIII).
6P w/ Handmade Malkoff M60 + New style Novatac clip
E1E w/ Lumens Factory HO-E1A lamp (Head originally from a HAIII E2E).
M4 w/ MN61 + Black Leef body (2x18650, C tail - M head).
9P w/ P91 + Black Leef body (2x18500, C tail - C head).


----------



## Tempest UK (Mar 12, 2009)

That poll doesn't go anywhere _near_ high enough :sick2:

I'll have to join the "around 100" brigade.

Regards,
Tempest


----------



## Mike 208 (Mar 12, 2009)

I have 26 Surefires (used to have more).


----------



## mbassoc2003 (Mar 12, 2009)

What about 'None'?
Some of us are not mugs. We don't buy Maglites for the same reason.


----------



## Zatoichi (Mar 12, 2009)

mbassoc2003 said:


> What about 'None'?
> Some of us are not mugs. We don't buy Maglites for the same reason.



I guess I'm one of the mugs then. :shrug:

2, a 6P and an E1L.


----------



## WDR65 (Mar 12, 2009)

I currently own six. I've bought and cycled through well over 40 in the past three years. This number will probably grow as the M3T, UB3 etc. are released.


----------



## MorpheusT1 (Mar 12, 2009)

I think i have around 45.


----------



## DM51 (Mar 12, 2009)

I think I have ~40.


----------



## jabe1 (Mar 12, 2009)

Just one so far.


----------



## crocodilo (Mar 12, 2009)

1. C2 with M60 and aftermarket bezel
2. 6P with M60, 6PD head and Z58 tailcap
3. 6PL with M60L, TNC extender and McC2s switch guts
4. E2DL
5. E2L
6. L1
7. E1B with Z68 tailcap
8. E1L

In my book, they are all Surefires, and they were all bought in stock configuration.


----------



## 1996alnl (Mar 12, 2009)

mbassoc2003 said:


> What about 'None'?
> Some of us are not mugs. We don't buy Maglites for the same reason.


 
Uh,what's a mug?:thinking:


----------



## xcel730 (Mar 12, 2009)

griff said:


> http://i210.photobucket.com/albums/bb139/griffm5/Surefire1.jpg


 
I've been looking that E-series teardrop bezel head. (3rd up from bottom right). Very nice collection.


----------



## DM51 (Mar 12, 2009)

1996alnl said:


> Uh,what's a mug?:thinking:


In this context it is a term of disparagement, used in order to insult and belittle other people. mbassoc2003's use of it here has earned him a suspension.


----------



## tx101 (Mar 12, 2009)

Five

M6
Milky Optimator KL3 head, Leef body and SW02 tail (does that count as a SF ?)
Orange G2
6P with aftermarket head, LE and tail
Z2
Milky Creemator E1E body, and E2DL tail


----------



## Mikey V (Mar 12, 2009)

I have 12. Two E1b's w/ Z68 tailcaps, two E2DL's, an L1, an L4 (100 Lmn), U2(A), Milspec Kroma, regular Kroma, 6PDL, Z2L w/Z59 tailcap, 6PL w/Z59 tailcap. The last 3 have R2 drop-ins.


----------



## gsxrac (Mar 12, 2009)

Federal LG said:


> *242* Surefire lights and counting...
> 
> (not exact numbers!)



We need a "OMG" smiley! Id use it here! All you guys in the 100+ category Ive gotta say hats off to you! Given an unlimited income I would probably still only have 50ish. I guess the 100+ club is where you can find the true collectors  As is I only have 3 but hopefully that will be 4 in the next month =)

Ohh yea, wheres DaFab?


----------



## GreySave (Mar 12, 2009)

LOL. I voted four but then realized I missed one.

U2
Kroma
L4
E2L
E2DL

Essentially tried to cover the field. Flood, throw, runtime, and multi color. I can carry the U2 and either of the E2s and cover the bases fairly well.


----------



## Federal LG (Mar 12, 2009)

Owen said:


> I don't mean to clutter this up, but I have a feeling I am not alone in this.
> I've had maybe 25+. Currently have 7.
> Thing is, none of them are in stock form. They all have parts from other lights, accessories, aftermarket bulbs, drop-ins, mods, etc.
> So, technically I have *0*???
> I'm not sure if that serves the purpose of the poll or not



I think there are mods and mods.

A minor mod is still a Surefire, IMHO.

But if you changed LED, driver, reflector, TIR, windows, tailclickie, anodization, etc, etc... Is it still a Surefire, just because it got engraved "SUREFIRE" in light´s body ?

I think CPFers would know if their lights still have "Surefire essence" or if they are completely modded.

Anyway, vote according your conscience. We both know this kind of vote does not have cientifical value, because we´re working on people´s sense of truth. 

If I vote for 10, and I just have 1, there is no way to prove that...

Have fun! :wave:


----------



## Federal LG (Mar 12, 2009)

Wow!

Take a look at post #16 !!

:twothumbs

I guess Surefire should start listening CPFers... There are thousands of SF lights in CPFer´s hands!!


----------



## Monocrom (Mar 12, 2009)

gsxrac said:


> Ohh yea, wheres DaFab?


 
Back on page 1, as the first reply.


----------



## brighterisbetter (Mar 12, 2009)

Owen said:


> I've had maybe 25+. Currently have 7.
> Thing is, none of them are in stock form.


This would make for an interesting poll by itself. "Of your SF collection, what percentage of them are currently bone stock?"


crocodilo said:


> In my book, they are all Surefires, and they were all bought in stock configuration.


I agree. I do think though the primary component that makes a SF a SF, when you're lego'ing stuff together, is the body itself. Sure you can put in a Malkoff, switch the bezel for a Solarforce, tailcap for a G&P, etc......but as long as it still has that SF logo engraved on the side of the body, I'll consider it one.


----------



## Oddjob (Mar 12, 2009)

Got my first one last week. It is an E1L 2 stage and so far I'm really liking it. It's nice to have a little throw in my collection. Even though it has a very distinct hotspot vs the beams I am accustomed to using I am still finding it very useful.


----------



## Federal LG (Mar 12, 2009)

brighterisbetter said:


> I do think though the primary component that makes a SF a SF, when you're lego'ing stuff together, is the body itself. Sure you can put in a Malkoff, switch the bezel for a Solarforce, tailcap for a G&P, etc......but as long as it still has that SF logo engraved on the side of the body, I'll consider it one.



Think this way... If you´re holding your modded Surefire, and someone ask you: Which light is that ?

*What you´ll gonna answer ?*

If you would answer: *It´s a Surefire (even if it was modded), than go for vote!*


----------



## gsxrac (Mar 12, 2009)

Monocrom said:


> Back on page 1, as the first reply.


:shakehead Im getting a little slow in my old age


----------



## Team Member (Mar 12, 2009)

35+


----------



## xcel730 (Mar 12, 2009)

That's kind of tricky. If all that's left from surefire is the body and tailcap, I would still tell my friends it's a Surefire so I don't have to go on a long-winded explanation ... "Well, it was originally Surefire, but then I got the reflector, Light engine, driver, and emitter changed."


----------



## firefly99 (Mar 12, 2009)

2 dozens Surefire, 100% stock. Only a few are in active standby service, waiting for darkness. The rest are all shelf queens.

Once in my collections, will forever be mine.

The most important component of a flashlight is the light engine. Surefire invest lots of resources on the light engine to produce the signature surefire beam. 

If the SF light engine had been replaced by a 3rd party emitter. Then it should not be counted as a Surefire flashlight anymore.


----------



## GreyShark (Mar 12, 2009)

I disagree. Surefires are inherently modular, lamps burn out and the technology is always advancing. You can just as easily run an M60 as a P60, especially if you still own the Surefire lamps. Saying otherwise is like suggesting it's no longer a Surefire because you use a different brand of batteries.


To put it another way it's normal to hotrod a quality piece of machinery. You can spend a lot of money making a Ford Pinto go fast but when all's said and done you've still only got a Pinto. That's why serious enthusiasts mod respectable sports cars. It's the same thing with flashlights. An Ultrafire clone may be just as bright with a Malkoff, but it's still just an Ultrafire. Not the same thing at all.


----------



## Sgt. LED (Mar 12, 2009)

But the hot rod Pinto is fun and not really expected to blow your doors off! I like sleepers.


----------



## griff (Mar 12, 2009)

Nicely said!!
sleepers are nice too but ................I rather roll in a 911 than a sleeper pinto......



GreyShark said:


> I disagree. Surefires are inherently modular, lamps burn out and the technology is always advancing. You can just as easily run an M60 as a P60, especially if you still own the Surefire lamps. Saying otherwise is like suggesting it's no longer a Surefire because you use a different brand of batteries.
> 
> 
> To put it another way it's normal to hotrod a quality piece of machinery. You can spend a lot of money making a Ford Pinto go fast but when all's said and done you've still only got a Pinto. That's why serious enthusiasts mod respectable sports cars. It's the same thing with flashlights. An Ultrafire clone may be just as bright with a Malkoff, but it's still just an Ultrafire. Not the same thing at all.


----------



## Sgt. LED (Mar 12, 2009)

:laughing: But the Pinto I can afford!


----------



## Owen (Mar 12, 2009)

Federal LG said:


> We both know this kind of vote does not have cientifical value, because we´re working on people´s sense of truth.


Yeah, I forget that people lie all the time. 
Turns out I have 8(7 different, 1 duplicate I didn't count), and 7 of them, externally, are all SF, while the "M4" has a Leef body.
I showed it to a Surefire rep a few days ago, and when I pulled it out he said "Oh, a M4" so I voted 8.


----------



## CARNAL1 (Mar 12, 2009)

Currently I own:

1 E1B
1 E1L (2 stage)
2 6Ps
1 G2 (yellow)
1 G2 (black)
1 G2 (OD)
1 Z2
1 C2
1 E2L (single stage 45 lumens)
1 M2
1 D3 Defender
2 E2Ws
1 E2E HA
1 E2DL Defender
-------------------------------
Total = 16

My first Surefire was my G2 black. Then it just started to snowball. I only need one more to complete my collection. The E2D LED Defender 120/5 lumens should be my last Surefire. Hopefully I'm not just wishful thinking. Happy Dark Trails

UPDATE:

Jan. 2010, I finally purchased my last Surefire. I was checking the Surefire Website and saw that they raised their prices on some of their lights. The E2DL Defender is now $165.00. I checked BrightGuy to see what their price was on the
E2DL and it was still the old price. I called BG to see if they had any in stock, and they had 1 left. I jumped all over it. I also got a nice surprise in that the Lumens was raised from 120/5 on the old version to 200/5 on the new version. Anyway my Surefire collection and my Flashlight collection in general is now complete. From here on out I think I'll only need accessories for the lights that I already own. Just a little side note, my last purchase of 2009 was the Solarforce L2 with the 18650 extension tube. I running 2 AW 18650s (2600) with a ThruNite XP-G R5 Drop-In, tailcap is the Solarforce L2 V4, and last but not least my bezel is a Surefire Z44. Not a bad build if I do say so myself. Happy Dark Trails.


----------



## edc3 (Mar 12, 2009)

3 at the moment.

C2-HA
6P
G2L

Funds permitting I would buy at least a few more.


----------



## GreyShark (Mar 12, 2009)

Sgt. LED said:


> But the hot rod Pinto is fun and not really expected to blow your doors off! I like sleepers.



Don't get me wrong... I like'em too... that's why I'm building a Mag85! 

Even from another angle though... is an Ultrafire with a P60 transformed into a SureFire? Not in my opinion.


----------



## GreyShark (Mar 12, 2009)

griff said:


> Nicely said!!
> sleepers are nice too but ................I rather roll in a 911 than a sleeper pinto......



You know what they say about mopeds, right?  :devil:

Sleepers are fun but when it comes down to it if you're going to build a hotrod you may as well do it with style.


----------



## gswitter (Mar 12, 2009)

25-30ish, mostly stock. Enough parts to assemble 5-10 more.


----------



## DaFABRICATA (Mar 12, 2009)

griff said:


> Nicely said!!
> sleepers are nice too but ................I rather roll in a 911 than a sleeper pinto......


 


Not me...I'll roll in my 1978 Chevette..:naughty:









*OK....Back on topic.*
Heres most of my Surefires with a few randoms.
I have aquired more since this picture, so it is not up to date.


----------



## Juggernaut (Mar 12, 2009)

None.


----------



## Eric242 (Mar 12, 2009)

I´m at 11 right now plus two lego builds still in the works:

K2, K2 Milspec, U2, L5, C2, C2 Emerson, M2, M3, E1e, E1d (E2D body replaced with E1e body), "KL3-BK-BL + C2 body + U2 tailcap"

Eric


----------



## brighterisbetter (Mar 12, 2009)

Ok so to clarify my earlier post I voted 4:

E1B
E2DL
C3
M3T

Though none of the above are stock anymore. Here's what they actually are:

*E1B* = E1B body/tail + flared delrin guard + darkzero FLuPIC KL4-P7 + IMR123
*E2DL* = bored E2DL body/tail + Mule head + darkzero Bi-FLuPIC P7 LE + AW17670
*C3* = C3-HA w/FM34 diffuser + Z48 + Malkoff M60W + (2) AW17500's
*M3T* = M3 body + SW01 + Led Zeppelin MZP7-3 head + (3) IMR123's

If I were to count all the SF's that I've bought and sold on Marketplace since joining in June `08.....who knows, over 100 previously owned probably.


----------



## Size15's (Mar 12, 2009)

Federal LG said:


> I guess Surefire should start listening CPFers... There are thousands of SF lights in CPFer´s hands!!


So having a lot of flashlights makes us worth listening to? I disagree.

I have many SureFires but I consider my opinion to be of significantly less worth compared to a Police Officer who is 'only' issues with one.

If SureFire wants to sell flashlights to collectors then we're one of the groups to market towards.

If SureFire wants to sell illumination tools to those who use light as a tool in order to help them prevail in adverse conditions then we offer less value.

Quantity is no indication of use and as SureFire market products to certain specific groups of users it is reasonable that they concentrate gaining feedback from those groups of users.

It's simply not possible to be everywhere listening to everybody and SureFire must direct resources where they consider most appropriate.

Al


----------



## GreyShark (Mar 12, 2009)

Size15's said:


> So having a lot of flashlights makes us worth listening to? I disagree.
> 
> I have many SureFires but I consider my opinion to be of significantly less worth compared to a Police Officer who is 'only' issues with one.



I'm sorry but that sounds really strange. Are you saying that you don't know anything about flashlights or that you don't have any self respect? At best what you're suggesting is a well known logical fallacy called the "appeal to authority."

Then again you did specifically say "collector." Maybe you don't actually use your lights for anything?


----------



## brighterisbetter (Mar 12, 2009)

-


----------



## CampingLED (Mar 12, 2009)

I have two, both modded. So my answer is *0*


----------



## Federal LG (Mar 12, 2009)

Size15's said:


> So having a lot of flashlights makes us worth listening to? I disagree.
> 
> I have many SureFires but I consider my opinion to be of significantly less worth compared to a Police Officer who is 'only' issues with one.
> 
> Al



*Al*... sorry dude, but the day that you agree with some critics over Surefire, I would change my name to *Jessica Simpson*!

Like you said, it´s your opinion. 
I just have ONE Surefire light: a L1.
I´m a federal agent.

Do you really think that I know more than you about SF lights ? 
Do you really think that I can talk about all the other models that I don´t have ?
Do you really think that I can contribute to Surefire models evolution more than you ??

*Other point of view: *
Maybe you should count in "thousands of dollars" to see how much CPFers generate to Surefire vaults. Then you should ask to some light manufacture (or even to Surefire too) if they would like to NOT receive that quantity of money.

Sorry, but in my country, a customer is a customer. Money is ALWAYS welcome to any company. And good companies always listen to their customers.

I love SF, I would love to have dinner with PK (hey, PK, come to Brazil, and I can host you free in my ranch!) but I don´t understand some points of view around here...


----------



## Federal LG (Mar 12, 2009)

Please, people, let´s contribute...

The objective is count. Not get the thread closed... :thumbsup:


----------



## Federal LG (Mar 12, 2009)

DaFABRICATA said:


> *OK....Back on topic.*
> Heres most of my Surefires with a few randoms.
> I have aquired more since this picture, so it is not up to date.



Wow!! Amazing !! :devil:
I would love to see them in real! Wow! Congratulations DeFab!

What are those silver shine models, in the middle, upper side ??


----------



## DaFABRICATA (Mar 12, 2009)

Federal LG said:


> Wow!! Amazing !! :devil:
> I would love to see them in real! Wow! Congratulations DeFab!
> 
> What are those silver shine models, in the middle, upper side ??


 


Thank you!
Those are an old E2 in satan grey and a rare E1e with teardrop head in saten grey. There is also an SG E1 body with Blk KL4 bezel.

Its amazing how many SF's have been accounted for so far.....lets keep em comin!


*I have a feeling this thread has come VERY close to being closed...Lets just keep our opinions to ourselves and keep things on track.:wave:*


----------



## GreyShark (Mar 12, 2009)

Federal LG said:


> Please, people, let´s contribute...
> 
> The objective is count. Not get the thread closed... :thumbsup:



Good point. I'll just avoid certain kinds of discussions from now on.


----------



## powernoodle (Mar 12, 2009)

*- Surefire L4, Pila 168S
- Surefire G2 (3)
- Surefire 6P (3)
- Surefire U2
- Surefire X10
- Surefire 6P + (2)A19 + (2)Pila 168S + P91 (now a Malkoff M60 MC-E)
- Surefire M3 + A19 + (2)Pila 168S

Almost none of them get any use, except as a host for my recent Malkoff MC-E purchase.
*


----------



## Federal LG (Mar 12, 2009)

I´m curious...

All you guys that posted names here, already voted in the poll too, right ?


----------



## saabgoblin (Mar 12, 2009)

Federal LG said:


> I´m curious...
> 
> All you guys that posted names here, already voted in the poll too, right ?


That's a Yes for the Goblin.


----------



## Size15's (Mar 12, 2009)

GreyShark said:


> I'm sorry but that sounds really strange. Are you saying that you don't know anything about flashlights or that you don't have any self respect? At best what you're suggesting is a well known logical fallacy called the "appeal to authority."
> 
> Then again you did specifically say "collector." Maybe you don't actually use your lights for anything?


I'm not suggesting that CPF members don't use their SureFires.
I'm suggesting that most people on CPF don't tend to use SureFire flashlights for the purpose SureFire have carefully designed them for.

I'm suggesting that if SureFire don't have the resources to gather feedback from _all_ sources [which seems to be the case] then SureFire are right to concentrate their feedback gathering and customer interaction on those customers SureFire design and intend their products for.

The emphasis on CPF is on the flashlight rather than the use it is intended for. We're flashlight enthusiasts after all. Nothing at all wrong with that!

One gets a completely different perspective when visiting communities that concentrate on activities involving lights. It's like they don't think about the flashlight itself as much as they think about whether they can use it to illuminate their activity in the way they need.

I have concentrated on exploring SureFire products for the last decade. I've not concentrated on exploring [insert activity] and how best to illuminate things. What is important in a flashlight to me may not be important to somebody performing an activity for which the flashlight is intended. In fact features of the flashlight that make it more suitable for an activity may be the features I actually find annoying in my use of it...

The CPF Community has plenty of SureFires - we're scratching the surface exploring this with this poll.
We have very little discussion regarding use of SureFires in the activities for which they are intended. If we did I suspect there would be a greater representation from SureFire.

Al


----------



## schiesz (Mar 12, 2009)

21+ here.

A few points I wanted to make:

One of those lights in DeFab's picture is the Porsche light, made by Surefire  Can't leave out the Porsche light.

I think the point that WE do not use surefire's for their intended purpose is very wrong. They are not ALL designed for combat and police activities. Last I checked there were quite a few models intended for outdoorsmen, pilots, spelunkers, and general illumination. Sure, the weaponlights, Millennium series, and Backup are designed expressly for certain markets and a decent percentage of CPFers have those lights and don't use them in that manner. But, all of the E series are intended for general purposes and outdoors activites, and a HUGE percentage of out lights are within that series (executive series, correct). And yes that includes the E2d. The P series may have originally been intended for police type use as one of (or maybe the ONE in) their original lineup, but now it is just the basic model in their wide range of offerings.

If a police officer uses a E2o with a KL4 head to clear a room in a suspected drug house, or a computer technician uses a A2 to inspect a motherboard, are they really not using the light as it was designed or intended because they are not an outdoorsman or an aviator? 

I can't imagine anyone would say that was the case. The intent of most of these lights is to provide light in the level and manner in which it is useful to you.


----------



## Federal LG (Mar 12, 2009)

Wise words... :thumbsup:


----------



## BigWaffles (Mar 13, 2009)

I currently have 10:

6PL
6P
6P - Malkoff M60LL
9P
9P - Malkoff M60
G3
G3L
A2 - White
A2 - White
E2L

I need to branch out more.

Edit: Oops! 11 now, I just aquired a second E2L. I've got to stop leaving them alone in the dark 

C.P.T.


----------



## Big_Ed (Mar 13, 2009)

I answered 7, but I forgot about the one in my car.
In order of purchase:
L4
L1
6PL with Malkoff M60
G2L
E1B
E2DL
E1L
E2L


----------



## Monocrom (Mar 13, 2009)

Federal LG said:


> I´m curious...
> 
> All you guys that posted names here, already voted in the poll too, right ?


 
That's a yes from me.


----------



## PhotoGal (Mar 13, 2009)

I have 26! 

Regards,

Jackie


----------



## 1996alnl (Mar 13, 2009)

All this talk about us (CPF members) not using Surefire products for what they were designed for has me scratching my head.
I thought the sole purpose of a flashlight is to illuminate the darkness,when i want to see something in the dark i turn the light on and point it to where i need it.
I know there's many different beam characteristics but i like to keep it simple when i'm purchasing a light,flood or throw,a bit of both and output. I like to use the KISS (keep it simple stupid) method.

Here's an interesting notion.
Surefire was kind enough to listen to some feedback from the FBI and other agencies in regards to designing a light that was small powerful and won't snack clothing (pockets),the result was the E1B backup.
A great little light but the beam is very similar to my L1.
Any ways i'm not trying to step on any toes here.
My point is.. let's not feel like were not worthy of owning SF products because they weren't designed for the average consumer.


----------



## SureAddicted (Mar 13, 2009)

schiesz said:


> 21If a police officer uses a E2o with a KL4 head to clear a room in a suspected drug house, or a computer technician uses a A2 to inspect a motherboard, are they really not using the light as it was designed or intended because they are not an outdoorsman or an aviator?.



I use the E2x combo with the KL4 to clear rooms, and why wouldn't you. I want to light up as much as the room as possible (wall of light), and the KL4 provides that. The outdoorsman on the other hand has less lumens and a TIR, not the best for clearing rooms. The KL4 is/was a scoutlight, so it fits the role perfectly.


----------



## schiesz (Mar 13, 2009)

SureAddicted said:


> I use the E2x combo with the KL4 to clear rooms, and why wouldn't you.



I think someone was missing my point. 

This is exact what I was saying. Many of surefire's lights are not specifically designed for super tactical secret squirrel activities. That does not make an E2O with a KL4 head unsuitable for those activities any more than it makes a 3P unsuitable for me to use while camping in utah, or an A2 unsuitable to use in a submarine :thinking:.

And not that this matters at all, but the E2o was an incandescent light just like a E2e except with the weaker power bulb. It was not TIR, but a clear window. The E1L and E2L are also called Outdoorsman, and have the optic.


----------



## kelmo (Mar 13, 2009)

SureAddicted said:


> I use the E2x combo with the KL4 to clear rooms...



When I want to clear a room I eat lots of garlic and hummus!

Seriously, I use my SFs for work and recreation. 

I use a 6P or L4 for work doing safety inspections. 

For the trail its my L1 or L4 w/KX2C.


----------



## dudemar (Mar 13, 2009)

I own a A2 + 6P.


----------



## BigBluefish (Mar 13, 2009)

0 
I hope to correct this terrible situation this year with either a G2L or G2 w/dropin, E1L, E2L, or E1B.


----------



## ruger357 (Mar 13, 2009)

6 for now


----------



## Bullzeyebill (Mar 13, 2009)

Guys, let's be sure to keep the comments thread title oriented. This thread is not a forum for pro and con discussions of any type, but strictly about how many SF's we own, those of us that have them, and comments in that vein.

Bill


----------



## alanagnostic (Mar 13, 2009)

Eight Surefires plus some Lego parts that give me nine (at least in my mind). I'm surprised I have that many...I quit counting my lights a long time ago when I realized I don't have to justify my obsession to anyone. I don't anticipate buying anymore anytime soon.


----------



## Platil (Mar 13, 2009)

I have two Surefire's at the moment: 

SF 6P Led
SF E2D Led Defender


----------



## Juggernaut (Mar 13, 2009)

schiesz said:


> or an A2 unsuitable to use in a submarine :thinking:.


 
SF should make a submariner flashlight!


----------



## Well-Lit (Mar 13, 2009)

I have 11 right now..with a bunch of lego parts, mostly e-series.

Best Regards:
Bob


----------



## rcashel11 (Mar 13, 2009)

12 at this time.


----------



## schiesz (Mar 14, 2009)

Juggernaut said:


> SF should make a submariner flashlight!



Well, they do make the 6P-N for divers...


----------



## Search (Mar 14, 2009)

I think Surefire did a good job in taking the demands of men and women in stressful, life threatening decisions and making the best series of lights out there.

What came from it was a set of lights that could handle any job and take the beatings.

Whether you're a cop, a firefighter, an EMT, a Marine, a pilot, a grandma, a little boy, a hiker, a climber, a biker, a walker, a jogger, a prepared citizen, or even the president, there is a light made that will suite your needs, and do a damn good job at doing it without failing.

There is a reason why so many people buy Surefire and there is a reason why I will only by Surefires in the future. I gave my PD30 to my girlfriend to keep in her purse. I can't use it and not want my 6PL.

Point is, no matter which light you buy from Surefire for whichever job you use, you can bet your life that light will work.


----------



## Monocrom (Mar 14, 2009)

Search said:


> Point is, no matter which light you buy from Surefire for whichever job you use, you can bet your life that light will work.


 
Sadly, not always the case.

I still recall threads full of upset CPFers over two specific issues... E-series tailcap failures & U2 failures.

I never experienced the former, myself. But quite a few other CPFers reported clickie failures. As to the latter, it is one that I will never experience since I will never add a U2 to my Surefire collection. Once again, quite a few CPFers bought U2s that were either DOA right out of the box, or completely stopped working after literally a few clicks of the tailcap. And Surefire did not do a very good job of rectifying the U2 situation. 

If someone were to truly stake their life on the reliability of a Surefire light, they would be much better off concentrating on a Surefire that uses the z41 tailcap. 

Surefire's z41 is bullet-proof reliable, and several Surefire models feature it.


----------



## Lightraven (Mar 14, 2009)

If I had bet my life on my Surefires, I'd be dead.

Nothing is perfect or perfectly reliable. In addition to the 2 issues Monocrom mentions were premature dead bulbs--sometimes exploding into glass powder. This was such a problem with the MN20 (M6 LOLA) that it was recalled for about a year.

I own about 5 Surefire lights, including an X-300, and use them for patrolling. If one goes down (and they have), I deploy another.


----------



## RedLED (Mar 14, 2009)

25+


----------



## Tomcat! (Mar 14, 2009)

I voted 6.

In order of purchase over 5-ish years:
E1e
E2e (bored out for 17670s in 2008)
G3 (black)
9P
G2L (yellow)
6P (satin grey) [Strictly speaking I didn't need this at all, but it looked so nice...!]:kiss:​Also have an old KL1, and a KL4, plus various Surefire and LF lamps, plus Fivemega 2x 18650 P series body and some P60 sized custom bi-pin lamp assemblies and E series bi-pin lamp assembly. Enough Lego parts to make more combinations than I could possibly need. The E2e is the most used by far and rides EDC in my coat pocket, but I keep swapping around the battery/lamp combinations because I never seem to settle on what I really want. 
Rough translation: I've got these parts and I aim to use 'em all. :twothumbs


----------



## MetalZone (Mar 14, 2009)

Just one. L1 cree.
the E2DL is calling me...


----------



## Search (Mar 14, 2009)

I've just been lucky I guess. I wouldn't use the E series lights for anything besides general stuff so I really wouldn't know.

I've owned a number of Surefires over the years and they have all performed well and never broken or failed on me.

I guess I speak from experience. That's all I can do really.

However, I'm not talking anymore this thread is so off topic I don't want to help close it.


----------



## n4zov (Mar 14, 2009)

None


----------



## nbp (Mar 14, 2009)

Three for me: 2 G2s and a 6PD w/Q5 drop-in.


----------



## boudeou (Mar 14, 2009)

11

l5 body +kt2
c2
6p
u2
e2dl
e1e bk+kx2
e1e nat
backup with kl4
e1 outdoorsman 
e2e + poorman mule head
e1e + mule head

+ bezels , led modules , tailcaps and differents parts e compatibles to mix


----------



## PetaBread (Mar 14, 2009)

I have 0 

but I plan to order more than 10+ in the future. :thumbsup:


----------



## DieselTech (Mar 15, 2009)

I just went and counted, I have nine. There are a few more I'd like to have, but I don't need them. Then again, out of the nine I have, only three get regular use...


----------



## sappyg (Mar 15, 2009)

i have 5 SF's. i have only 5 b/c i can't afford 6. 
i like this thread. i actually went and counted my entire meager flashlight collection and discovered that SF's are nearly 1/2 of my collection.
i voted in the poll. the #'s that blow me away are the 10 or more crowd.


----------



## edc3 (Mar 15, 2009)

schiesz said:


> Well, they do make the 6P-N for divers...



*"This is the same exact light as the Original Surefire 6P but with better O-Rings to make it waterproof."* Retail price: $125.00 

Holy crap! Those must be some special o-rings to account for the price difference. :shrug:


----------



## Size15's (Mar 15, 2009)

edc3 said:


> *"This is the same exact light as the Original Surefire 6P but with better O-Rings to make it waterproof."* Retail price: $125.00
> 
> Holy crap! Those must be some special o-rings to account for the price difference. :shrug:


Let's leave SureFire's 'N-Certification' for the threads we already have on this interesting topic.


----------



## 325addict (Mar 15, 2009)

within a week, I will have ordered an E1e.... as long as it it still available! They are not in the new catalog anymore.... discontinued??
That will make a meager three SureFires for me then.... more to come!
A C2 and A2 for example... and an E1L of course 

Timmo.


----------



## KSC001 (Mar 15, 2009)

I have 19 Surefire's.


----------



## Radio (Mar 15, 2009)

3 or 4 hundred, I lost count after 200. :nana:


----------



## Federal LG (Mar 16, 2009)

Total updated on post *#16* !

(also with Radio´s 300 SF lights)


:wave:


----------



## Zen|th (Mar 16, 2009)

Radio said:


> 3 or 4 hundred, I lost count after 200. :nana:


 
Well, Im almost about the same as you.. But just a minor change, take away the hundred..

I only have 3 now. A G2, 6PDL and a Backup. Even Im broke after buying all these! 

How do you guys get so many??? How many years has it been for u guys to get like over a 100?


----------



## JJV (Mar 16, 2009)

I posted over 10. I'm at work so I am not 100% sure, but memory tells me I have 13. 

And yes, I counted those I use with Malkoff drop-ins or the one I just had Milky mod. If someone was to ask me what kind of flashlight it was, I would say "It's a SureFire I had someone modify for me", or "a SureFire with an aftermarket LED", so I included them based on those criteria. :nana:


----------



## Federal LG (Mar 16, 2009)

No problem JJV.

Thanks for the info! :thumbsup:

Around *1984* Surefire lights in CPFer´s hands!


----------



## alflys2 (Mar 16, 2009)

Over 100.Gave one to NotSoBrightBob.


----------



## alflys2 (Mar 16, 2009)

Over 100,Gave one to NotSoBrightBoB.


----------



## Toohotruk (Mar 16, 2009)

2- G2s
1- 6P
1- 9P


----------



## starburst (Mar 17, 2009)

G2
6P
M6


:twothumbs


----------



## rolling (Mar 17, 2009)

2x L1 Cree
G2Z
L2


----------



## bagman (Mar 17, 2009)

About 15 I think :naughty:


----------



## Federal LG (Mar 23, 2009)

That´s it!

Until now, we have around *2111* Surefire lights in CPFer´s hands!

Amazing!


----------



## Size15's (Mar 23, 2009)

Federal LG said:


> That´s it!
> 
> Until now, we have around *2111* Surefire lights in CPFer´s hands!
> 
> Amazing!


If what I'm led to believe is so; that's less than a day's work for SureFire if we were to order them all at once rather than spread out over the last two decades...


----------



## LED61 (Mar 23, 2009)

8 A2's
1 Kroma
2 M6's
1 G2
1 9P
1 C2
1 U2


----------



## bloke-gear.com (Mar 24, 2009)

Size15's said:


> If what I'm led to believe is so; that's less than a day's work for SureFire if we were to order them all at once rather than spread out over the last two decades...



Kind of obvious but nonetheless very interesting point. I counted at least 60 lights on my shelf. Though I have quite a few scattered across the house and in the car. Now, if only I had enough $$ to get a Hell Fighter.


----------



## Federal LG (Mar 24, 2009)

Size15's said:


> If what I'm led to believe is so; that's less than a day's work for SureFire if we were to order them all at once rather than spread out over the last two decades...



Huh.... ok! 

:shrug:


----------



## crocodilo (Mar 24, 2009)

Ahhh... Malkoff drop-ins and Cree TIRs... is there a pattern here?


----------



## schiesz (Mar 24, 2009)

Size15's said:


> If what I'm led to believe is so; that's less than a day's work for SureFire if we were to order them all at once rather than spread out over the last two decades...



That seems pretty significant to me actually. To put it in perspective, I think of it like this:

If a certain group were to discover that it consumed (even over a decade) the amount of beer produced by Anheuser-Busch in a single day, is that not significant? 

Sure, its not like this one group consumes 50% or anything like that, but its still a pretty sizable chunk.


----------



## rmteo (Mar 24, 2009)

Only if you consider something like 0.02% significant. :devil:


----------



## Zeruel (Mar 24, 2009)

Wow...looking at the poll, seems like the people who participated all adds up to many Surefires. 
1,760 to be exact, at this current stage and assuming those who own 10 or more is calculated conservatively as 10 only.

On the other hand, the number would double if we add in DeFab's amount.


----------



## rmteo (Mar 24, 2009)

Zeruel said:


> Wow...looking at the poll, seems like the people who participated all adds up to thousands of Surefires.


-


Federal LG said:


> That´s it!
> 
> Until now, we have around *2111* Surefire lights in CPFer´s hands!
> 
> Amazing!


----------



## cfromc (Mar 24, 2009)

I have:
1 6P-USA
1 6PDL
1 6PL
3 6P
1 M3
1 MC3 (C3 body, M2 head)
1 9Z
1 C3
3 G2L
2 G2
15 off the top of my head

and enough spare parts to build at least 10 more


----------



## schiesz (Mar 24, 2009)

rmteo said:


> Only if you consider something like 0.02% significant.



Ok, lets look at this percentage. 

I assume you got it by 1 / 365 (actually 0.27%, not 0.02%). I am assuming that surefire doesn't work 24/7/365, but has a normal production schedule, allowing about 220 production days per year. IF this is the case, it is closer to 0.45%. But these numbers assume that they make 2111 lights per day, which could be lower than actual.

Judging by Size15's comment, I am also assuming that while our total in this thread is less than a single production day, it is close. So lets say they make 2500 lights, average, per work day (I am guessing here. If someone has a closer number, please let us know).

Also, we have had 317 votes in the poll. I would think that we actually have a lot more members here that own surefire flashlights. I don't think that it would be presuming to much to say that the members here own at least twice the number reflected so far. I could be much more, or much less in reality.

SO, 2500 lights per production day, times 220 days, is over half a million lights per year (550,000 - does anyone know if this is anywhere close to their actual annual production?).

And if we do indeed have twice the number of surefires as is reflected in this poll (making it 4222), it would represent 0.77% of Surefire's annual production.

Not a huge percentage by any stretch, but it is significant. Just based upon the number of people posting in this thread compared to ACTIVE members of CPF, I bet we are actually closer to 1%. And a lot more than 0.02%.


----------



## Zeruel (Mar 24, 2009)

Where's Stuart when we need him for these info?


----------



## schiesz (Mar 24, 2009)

For all I know this could be closely guarded information and not available to the public, so it might be that we cannot get exact figures.


----------



## LED61 (Mar 24, 2009)

According to this Surefire is much more than just flashlights, so even CPF is only part of a market sector.

http://investing.businessweek.com/research/stocks/private/snapshot.asp?privcapId=6835597

that being said however I don´t see why any company´s annual sales would be closely guarded information.


----------



## xcel730 (Mar 24, 2009)

Nevermind where you guys get the money to get over 100s of SF, where the heck do you put these lights? Also, how did you get your significant others to play nicely? 

I try hard keep my *total* flashlight population between 30-40, with about half of them being Surefire. Occasionally, I would sell some of my lights to make room for new ones. It seems like most people just keep them.


----------



## 1wrx7 (Mar 24, 2009)

I voted 10 or more. Since we're counting here I did. 17 with a lot of spare parts. 7 weaponlight's alone. Although I've easily bought 50+ I've either sold/traded/given away the rest.

I try not to bet my life on any piece of equipment... they all fail sooner or later. That being said I only use SureFire light's. I love the quality... and warranty. There are other good light's, but the last thing I need is another product line to look through

BTW several... many:shrug: ...are modded. I'll explain a light to a flashaholic in detail, but everyone else is told it's a SureFire that I modified. No light is perfect for each of us. While I'm sure SureFire pays attention to us.... for that reason they won't be bending over for us. No company can base itself off of the fanatics.

I'm trying not to, but I'm sure I'll buy more SureFire's

Radio :wave:
If you're serious I demand some pics... or links to pics.lovecpf I've seen DaFab's collection and it's crazy. You're talking about 2-3X that many


----------



## gary3911 (Mar 24, 2009)

E1L
E1B
L1 Milky
E2e
G2
Z2
6PL
A2
M4

Total : 9


----------



## GreyShark (Mar 24, 2009)

Zeruel said:


> Where's Stuart when we need him for these info?



In another thread he seemed to be saying that police/military sales are what got the company started but don't represent their largest market today. If Surefire really does make 2,000+ lights per day you could sell one to every law enforcement officer of any kind in the USA and still have more left over than you were able to sell. Even if you ignore that the number of people who responded to this poll is going to be way smaller than the number of people who have owned Surefires, been on CPF and just stopped posting or don't participate in polls you still have to consider that there aren't many opportunities to find groups of hundreds of people who really understand the intricacies of how high performance flashlights work and have,

A: thousands of your flashlights
B: collectively hundreds of thousands, possibly millions? of manhours using your lights
C: experience with a wide variety of your products and the competition's products

There are markets bigger than CPF. I'm sure that Lowes moves more 6P's and G2's than CPF has membership. I'm also sure you'd get higher quality feedback from CPF than randomly questioning Lowes shoppers who buy Surefires. Other large markets could probably offer similar insight, knowing Surefires work better than anything at WalMart but not really having any other basis for comparison.


----------



## Mikey V (Mar 24, 2009)

Mikey V said:


> I have 12. Two E1b's w/ Z68 tailcaps, two E2DL's, an L1, an L4 (100 Lmn), U2(A), Milspec Kroma, regular Kroma, 6PDL, Z2L w/Z59 tailcap, 6PL w/Z59 tailcap. The last 3 have R2 drop-ins.


 
SitRep. Since above post, total now up to 16. New additions: 120 lumen L4, an E1L, an E2L and a Viking Tactics VTAC L4. The last is basically a single stage E2DL without a strike bezel and standard Z68 clicky. It has the KX2C head with TIR lens and is black type III HA. 

Life is bright.


----------



## Federal LG (Mar 24, 2009)

GreyShark said:


> In another thread he seemed to be saying that police/military sales are what got the company started but don't represent their largest market today...



Well, well... :thumbsup:


----------



## Zeruel (Mar 24, 2009)

Who then is their largest market? .....think.....think.... :thinking:
Does that mean....civilians?! Us?


----------



## GreyShark (Mar 24, 2009)

Police are civilians, in the US anyway. So if you're talking markets you'd probably have to break it down to government sales versus sales to private citizens. On SureFire's own website we see the following,



> The world's finest compact high-intensity flashlights for outdoors, self-defense, military, law enforcement, and general applications.



3 out of 5 of the suggested uses apply to private citizens. That's probably a clue as to where the bread and butter is, at least these days.

I believe the original point of contention was whether or not feedback from CPF matters. Clearly CPF knows a lot about flashlight performance, clearly SureFire is marketing lights to the entire spectrum of CPF members be they government users or private citizens, clearly there are thousands of SureFire lights in the hands of CPF members and this thread has established there are over 300 active SureFire users/owners on CPF. That's a pretty good study group any way you cut it. If I made a product I'd be interested in feedback from such a group.


----------



## american lockpicker (Mar 24, 2009)

Wouldn't a poll on did CPF influence your decision to purchase a Surefire be useful?


----------



## woodrow (Mar 24, 2009)

I clicked 1, but currently own 0...I have had : 6p,9p,9n,gpz,M3,M4,e2e,e2l(lux3 and new), 6pl,e2dl and g2.

I look forward to buying more...though there are none that really interest me now. I am excited about my next SF purchase though because I know it will have to be an extrodanary light to get my $$$ from great new companies like Fenix and Olight with their cutting edge emitters and ui.


----------



## schiesz (Mar 25, 2009)

american lockpicker said:


> Wouldn't a poll on did CPF influence your decision to purchase a Surefire be useful?



Interesting question. I know it did for me. I was amazed by a Coast V2 Tactical from Lowes and went searching for something better. Ended up at CPF. Didn't take long before I had a E1L. It was quite a spiral from there...


----------



## Size15's (Mar 25, 2009)

Interesting calculations - perhaps 'a morning's work' would be more like it then. This is something almost impossible to verify and I can't prove it or provide any support.
My point was that even though this snapshot shows ~2,000 SureFires - I think this is actually a pretty low number. It would be interesting to get a better picture of how SureFire ownership sits within the context of overall flashlight ownership. Are there more Fenix flashlights for example?


----------



## kelmo (Mar 25, 2009)

I think the greatest number of lights out there are the cheap plastic 2D flashlights you can get anywhere.

Oh yeah, I just bought another SF, my 1st C series, a C3. Where the hell is UPS!!!


----------



## callmaster (Mar 25, 2009)

The only SF I use are the SF123 batteries. I need some torches. What's a good first SF to buy?


----------



## american lockpicker (Mar 25, 2009)

schiesz said:


> Interesting question. I know it did for me. I was amazed by a Coast V2 Tactical from Lowes and went searching for something better. Ended up at CPF. Didn't take long before I had a E1L. It was quite a spiral from there...


 

It did for me. Before I was a member I thought Surefires were too expensive.


----------



## Size15's (Mar 25, 2009)

kelmo said:


> I think the greatest number of lights out there are the cheap plastic 2D flashlights you can get anywhere.
> 
> Oh yeah, I just bought another SF, my 1st C series, a C3. Where the hell is UPS!!!


I was considering CPF members rather than people in general.
Designing an online questionnaire to explore the brands owned by CPF members of which SureFire is but one. Do the ~2,000 SureFires represent a good proportion of the overall number of flashlights owned or are there other brands that trump SureFire on quantity?


----------



## kaichu dento (Mar 25, 2009)

Just bought another E1e. :twothumbs


----------



## firefly99 (Mar 25, 2009)

Size15's said:


> My point was that even though this snapshot shows ~2,000 SureFires - I think this is actually a pretty low number.


Agreed, 2000+ Surefires is a very small number.



Size15's said:


> Are there more Fenix flashlights for example?


 Of course, no doubts about it.

The interesting part about this online poll, is that there are only 333 Surefire owners among the thousands of CPF members. Out of the 333 Surefires owners, 89 are hardcore Surefire fanatics who own more than 10~100+ SF.




woodrow said:


> I clicked 1, but currently own 0....


 If you currently have no Surefires light. Don't mess out the poll results.



1wrx7 said:


> Radio :wave:
> If you're serious I demand some pics... or links to pics.lovecpf I've seen DaFab's collection and it's crazy. You're talking about 2-3X that many



hey Radio, I would be interested to see your Surefires flashlights. Where are the pictures?


----------



## Federal LG (Mar 25, 2009)

american lockpicker said:


> Wouldn't a poll on did CPF influence your decision to purchase a Surefire be useful?



It did for me too. 
It was in CPF that I learned about SF lights and their outstanding quality.


----------



## Federal LG (Mar 25, 2009)

callmaster said:


> The only SF I use are the SF123 batteries. I need some torches. What's a good first SF to buy?



*E1B Backup*. I just bought one, and I´m love with it. Little size, but high power. Awesome!


----------



## Federal LG (Mar 25, 2009)

GreyShark said:


> Police are civilians, in the US anyway. So if you're talking markets you'd probably have to break it down to government sales versus sales to private citizens. On SureFire's own website we see the following,
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Exactly. That´s a point I totally agree too. 
I never understood why Surefire never practiced deep listening with all CPF members. I mean, based on what someone said around here that CPF is not the target market for Surefire, but IMHO, customers are customers, and money is always welcome.

CPFers have some knowledge about flashlights that common people don´t. CPFers can point some aspects and impressions that common people don´t, turning them in a precious type of customer. But Surefire has to know that our critics are harder than common people critics. Can they handle the fire?

Maybe we (civilians) are not the main target market for Surefire, but I see no harm to listen us, to collect suggestions, to improve their products while listening ALL their customers, and to sell more lights (and make more money).

Ask for any company in the world, if they prefer to sell 7 millions to military, *OR* if they prefer to sell 7 millions to military + 1 million to civilians.

I guess all of them will choose the second option... :shrug:

Well, any capitalist company will. All the rest is bullshit.


----------



## GreyShark (Mar 25, 2009)

firefly99 said:


> Originally Posted by *Size15's*
> 
> 
> _Are there more Fenix flashlights for example?_
> ...



You have to consider what that data would really mean though. Right now Fenix offers better performance at a lower price than SureFire. If more people on CPF own a Fenix or other brand it is probably really suggesting that SureFire performance is falling behind the competition's so they're less attractive to people who are interested in high performance lights. This is interesting because it mirrors the transitional era when people were switching from Mag-lites to SureFires. I haven't heard of anyone on CPF using a Mag in stock form. Similarly fewer and fewer people are using stock SureFire lamps and emitters.


----------



## kelmo (Mar 25, 2009)

crocodilo said:


> Ahhh... Malkoff drop-ins and Cree TIRs... is there a pattern here?



Perhaps you should change your name to "Creecodilo?"

I'm crying Creecodilo TIRs of envy...

Nice collection BTW!!!


----------



## Size15's (Mar 25, 2009)

Of the 333 people who voted; about a quarter of us are 'hardcore SureFire fanatics' with more SureFires than appears sensible.
How many members with SureFires, even those who saw this thread title, even those who read the thread, decided not to vote? I guess we'll never know, especially since "zero" SureFires, and "abstain" were not voting options.
As a proportion of the number of times this thread has been viewed, taking into account the number of posts the thread has (and the number of subscriptions to it), is the number of voters obviously greater or fewer than one might expect for a poll in this subforum of CPF? I don't know...



GreyShark said:


> You have to consider what that data would really mean though. Right now Fenix offers better performance at a lower price than SureFire.


You're right - the data can be interpreted in a variety of ways - spun to suit a diverse range of opinions such as the opinion you're giving (that is different from my own)

Performance and Price are opinions as purchases and selections are subjective and individual. There is considerable scope for differences of opinion.



GreyShark said:


> If more people on CPF own a Fenix or other brand it is probably really suggesting that SureFire performance is falling behind the competition's so they're less attractive to people who are interested in high performance lights. This is interesting because it mirrors the transitional era when people were switching from Mag-lites to SureFires. I haven't heard of anyone on CPF using a Mag in stock form. Similarly fewer and fewer people are using stock SureFire lamps and emitters.


I agree that CPF members are often driven by the desire for ever brighter flashlights [regardless of whether they actually need them or not!]
I also agree that as CPF membership grows ever larger the 'majority' of those who seem to desire cheaper, lower cost flashlights increases and becomes ever more strong and vocal.
We have a strong membership of people who will pay seemingly high sums of money for niche or specialist lights as well as those who spend considerable sums of money on modifying flashlights. Has this group of CPF members changed along the same lines (grown at the time rate?)

I think one of the things we're experiencing is an improved accessibility 'output enhancing' modifications as enterprising individuals improve their economies of scale by increasing production.
There are large numbers of members hungry for such products targeted at price-points within their reach.

On CPF we are experiencing a number of manufacturers playing a game to take advantage of the market the CPF community has become. Playing off each other and pusher for ever higher output – This seems to suit many members.

I don't think SureFire are interested in playing this game. SureFire was not created for this purpose; nor has it evolved to take advantage of it. SureFire have created their own path and have been on their own journey. Sometimes this intersects with the path the CPF community are taking. Sometimes the path is shared so that members can jump on and off without being taken too far from the path they are travelling. Other times SureFire seems to be somewhere else altogether heading in an altogether different direction!

Don't get me wrong - CPF members are a wealth of information and resource to product developers - we can rightly offer flashlight manufacturers an experience found nowhere else.

From what I see; SureFire don't have the resources to formally gain interacting feedback with the CPF community. They have determined how much customer interaction to resource and where to deploy it. Their approach may not suit us but that doesn't make it wrong - just annoying given our apparent interest in SureFire products. 

What interests me is that even though SureFire seem to be considered lower-performing and higher priced they are still highly desirable and this creates friction and often intense feelings. I guess because it provokes emotional conflict between wanting it and not being able/willing to afford it.

Perhaps next time a survey or poll of flashlight ownership is wanted it can be discussed, designed, constructed and managed so as to achieve responses from a far larger percentage of the CPF community?

Al


----------



## GreyShark (Mar 25, 2009)

I'd be interested in that. I don't make flashlights but I am interested in the economic and marketing aspects almost as much as the design and performance aspects of lights. Clearly an astounding number of high performance flashlights are being sold to the masses and it's kind of interesting to put a face on that. When you're dealing with a global population nearing 7 billion even a tiny fraction of a percent of that population is still a market numbering in the millions.


----------



## LED61 (Mar 26, 2009)

> I don't think SureFire are interested in playing this game. SureFire was not created for this purpose; nor has it evolved to take advantage of it. SureFire have created their own path and have been on their own journey. Sometimes this intersects with the path the CPF community are taking. Sometimes the path is shared so that members can jump on and off without being taken too far from the path they are travelling. Other times SureFire seems to be somewhere else altogether heading in an altogether different direction!


 
This statement is key, and I fully agree on Al´s view in it.

Why are we always pretending that Surefire should treat CPF as an institution with rights ? that somehow we should speak with a common voice that should be heard ?

To me CPF is just a social gathering where we come to talk about lights, there are a wide variety of amateurs, recreational users, and professional LEO´s and aviators possibly. 

But Surefire has probably got all the input they need from these sectors to which they have directed their market and CPF is just an add on voice.


----------



## Federal LG (Mar 26, 2009)

LED61 said:


> Why are we always pretending that Surefire should treat CPF as an institution with rights ? that somehow we should speak with a common voice that should be heard ?
> 
> To me CPF is just a social gathering where we come to talk about lights, there are a wide variety of amateurs, recreational users, and professional LEO´s and aviators possibly.



I agree with your definition of Candle Power Forums. I don´t think CPF is an institution with rights, I only think that CPFers have more light knowledge than common people, and *THAT* make them a valuable resource of customer opinion, for *ANY* light manufacturer... Some of them see that, and some of them don´t see that. Patience...

I only disagree when I saw people treating Surefire like if they´re the Vatican, with some sacred aura of santity, so you can´t complain about them in public, you can´t criticize their lights, you can´t scare their representants, because if you do that, it´s a sin, or something like that.

All brands have their pros and cons. IMHO, trouble starts when people don´t accept some critics over their beloved manufacturer. Why so passionate?

And I still believe that 2 heads think better than just 1.


----------



## Lightraven (Mar 26, 2009)

Surefire and Paul Kim have been supportive of CPF, so the CPF admins and mods are more positive in their feelings about Surefire and Paul Kim than the average CPF member.

Surefire also has a reservoir of good will and respect in the U.S. military and law enforcement. Some of the mods and admins are also part of the military and law enforcement in the U.S.

I was at some night live fire training over the weekend. Just from casual observation, I think everybody present (SEAL officer, federal agents, SWAT) had at least one Surefire light. That's gotta say something. That is the bullseye of Surefire's target market, regardless of revenue sources. The owners of Surefire have made military and LE their most important customer. And maximizing profits may not be the goal of those owners, any more than it is mine.


----------



## GreyShark (Mar 27, 2009)

I see two distinct issues in that. One is marketing and the other is performance.



Lightraven said:


> I was at some night live fire training over the weekend. Just from casual observation, I think everybody present (SEAL officer, federal agents, SWAT) had at least one Surefire light. That's gotta say something. That is the bullseye of Surefire's target market, regardless of revenue sources.



SureFire has had excellent success marketing to the military, police and shooting community. Much of this has been based on the reliability, durability and relative performance of their lights. Which brings us to the second issue...



> The owners of Surefire have made military and LE their most important customer. And maximizing profits may not be the goal of those owners, any more than it is mine.



Profit margins are beside the point. Time and technology have marched on. I'm not convinced that lower output, lesser runtime and incompatibility with the batteries many/most advanced users are interested in are what the warrior elite are really looking for a in a light. That takes us full circle back to marketing, or brand name recognition anyway.

As I've said before I believe most of this debate is stemming from SureFire fans who are simply concerned the brand is falling behind the times. We like the brand so we'd like to see it stay on top. Especially those of us who like to buy American.


----------



## Federal LG (Mar 27, 2009)

Totally agreed.


----------



## gary3911 (Mar 27, 2009)

GreyShark said:


> Similarly fewer and fewer people are using stock SureFire lamps and emitters.


 

I don't know if this is true or not, but I find something very beautiful and marvellous about stock SFs. I have switched out various parts of my 6P types with drop-ins and tailcaps claiming all sorts of death-ray type effects, but I have always gone back to the stock parts and used them as they were designed. I don't notice huge benefits from the gains in output, just as I find the stock incans to be some of the finest lights around. I work in the dark indoors and outdoors daily, and I have yet to find a situation which finds the E2e lacking.

Not to say there isn't something cool about bad-boy 3rd party components - just that I find the lights completely adequate as designed.


*I exclude Milky from this. The Milkys are more art than modification.


----------



## american lockpicker (Mar 27, 2009)

GreyShark said:


> You have to consider what that data would really mean though. Right now Fenix offers better performance at a lower price than SureFire. If more people on CPF own a Fenix or other brand it is probably really suggesting that SureFire performance is falling behind the competition's so they're less attractive to people who are interested in high performance lights. This is interesting because it mirrors the transitional era when people were switching from Mag-lites to SureFires. I haven't heard of anyone on CPF using a Mag in stock form. Similarly fewer and fewer people are using stock SureFire lamps and emitters.


 

I use a stock 5D, 2AA, 2AA LED, Solitaire and 2C with mag xenon bulb.


----------



## Retinator (Mar 28, 2009)

3 so far :

6PL (Feb/08)
E1L (Jan/09)
G2 (Incan, in yellow) Mar/09

P61 for 6PL just a couple of weeks ago.

Twiddling over a 9P or G3. Wanna try a P91 someday 
Wouldn't mind something in a tan colored nitrolon, G2 or G2Z.
Olive is nice but a tad dark for my tastes.

Oh and an E2L could be fun too.
2nd/3rd job anyone? Forget the new models, I'm still playing catchup!


----------



## Sean (Mar 29, 2009)

I voted.


----------



## Toohotruk (Mar 29, 2009)

Me too! (4)

Listed earlier in the thread.


----------



## nzgunnie (Mar 29, 2009)

I voted (8) although I realised just afterwards that it should probably be 9 as I've cobbled together a 660 weapon light out of pieces I got off ebay and here. 

And it could be 10 if you count the E2L body and E1e/E2e head that I've combined with the clicky tail cap from my M600 Scout light to make a kind of E2e.

Plus I've got quite a few accessories that make a couple of extra lights too - a KT2 and a KL3 for example.


----------



## firefly99 (Mar 29, 2009)

LED61 said:


> This statement is key, and I fully agree on Al´s view in it.
> 
> Why are we always pretending that Surefire should treat CPF as an institution with rights ? that somehow we should speak with a common voice that should be heard ?
> 
> ...


I agreed with Al's view and your definition of CPF as a social gathering.



Federal LG said:


> I don´t think CPF is an institution with rights, I only think that CPFers have more light knowledge than common people, and *THAT* make them a valuable resource of customer opinion, for *ANY* light manufacturer... Some of them see that, and some of them don´t see that.


We may be a source of customer opinion for any light manufacturer. But whether manufacturer value CPF feedback is a different issue. 



Federal LG said:


> I only disagree when I saw people treating Surefire like if they´re the Vatican, with some sacred aura of santity, so you can´t complain about them in public, you can´t criticize their lights, you can´t scare their representants, because if you do that, it´s a sin, or something like that.
> 
> All brands have their pros and cons. IMHO, trouble starts when people don´t accept some critics over their beloved manufacturer. Why so passionate?


I disagreed with your statements. It is not about passion, it is about fairness & respect. Surefire had put in a lot of research to build high end flashlights and setting a lot of benchmarks in the process. They had become the yard stick for the rest of industry to follow. Besides Surefire, I also respect other companies such as Pelican, Mag, etc. that put in an honest day work to create their own unqiue products.

This is a free market. By all means support the light manufacturer who are perceived to value CPF members feedback and thirst for the latest high tech whiz bang. 

Bashing any light manufacturers online because they did not release products with the latest technology or value feedback from online forum is uncalled for.
Product ownership does not imply the light manufacturer had an obligation to listen to you. It is very naive to expect a large manufacturer to cater to your whim or demand, just because you own a single unit from their product range.

Remember you can always vote with your wallet.



gary3911 said:


> ..I find something very beautiful and marvellous about stock SFs.


Agreed. Me too.



gary3911 said:


> I have switched out various parts of my 6P types with drop-ins and tailcaps claiming all sorts of death-ray type effects, but I have always gone back to the stock parts and used them as they were designed. I don't notice huge benefits from the gains in output, just as I find the stock incans to be some of the finest lights around. I work in the dark indoors and outdoors daily, and I have yet to find a situation which finds the E2e lacking.
> 
> Not to say there isn't something cool about bad-boy 3rd party components - just that I find the lights completely adequate as designed.


It is not surprising since Surefire had done their homework.



GreyShark said:


> If more people on CPF own a Fenix or other brand it is probably really suggesting that SureFire performance is falling behind the competition's so they're less attractive to people who are interested in high performance lights.


Disagreed with your statements. These are the "value for money" people. who want maximum brightness on a cheap light. They still want a Surefire flashlight but either they cannot afford it or they are not willing to pay for it.

Al had phase it in a very nice manner. see below:



Size15's said:


> What interests me is that even though SureFire seem to be considered lower-performing and higher priced they are still highly desirable and this creates friction and often intense feelings. I guess because it provokes emotional conflict between wanting it and not being able/willing to afford it.l


----------



## GreyShark (Mar 29, 2009)

firefly99 said:


> Bashing any light manufacturers online because they did not release products with the latest technology or value feedback from online forum is uncalled for.
> Product ownership does not imply the light manufacturer had an obligation to listen to you. It is very naive to expect a large manufacturer to cater to your whim or demand, just because you own a single unit from their product range.


 
It isn't about bashing, it's about wanting a favorite brand to put out lights that are competitive with what else is available on the market. If the manufacturer doesn't want to deliver what it's customers are wanting, well, then we get to this,



> Remember you can always vote with your wallet.



Many of us like the SureFire company and would rather it not come to that. Hence we urge them to make improvements and are disappointed when that doesn't happen or when exciting new models are promised but not delivered. I'm sure there are people out there who are strictly about bashing but that's a totally separate issue than product feedback and customer satisfaction.



> Disagreed with your statements. These are the "value for money" people. who want maximum brightness on a cheap light. They still want a Surefire flashlight but either they cannot afford it or they are not willing to pay for it.
> 
> Al had phase it in a very nice manner. see below:
> 
> ...


_
_


Not always. SureFire performance can only take you so far. It isn't always enough and it isn't always satisfactory. To go beyond that you need to either start looking at other manufacturers or start looking at some mods. For some people 
beauty isn't enough, we also want performance. For us SureFire build quality is highly desirable but SureFire performance is sometimes lacking. While value is a good thing and the best value will always be compelling the bottom line is performance, not price.


----------



## Federal LG (Mar 30, 2009)

firefly99 said:


> Bashing any light manufacturers online because they did not release products with the latest technology or value feedback from online forum is uncalled for.
> Product ownership does not imply the light manufacturer had an obligation to listen to you. It is very naive to expect a large manufacturer to cater to your whim or demand, just because you own a single unit from their product range.
> 
> Remember you can always vote with your wallet.



First, this is not about bashing light manufacturers at all. Maybe you didn´t understand.

Second, If I wouldn´trust SF lights, I would not use them, and I just bought a brand new silver E1B 2 weeks ago... Another thing, I don´t remember saying about any OBLIGATION of Surefire listening CPFer´s. I just said (repeating for the fifth time) that CPFers have a knowledge about lights that average people don´t, and THIS make them a valuable opinion resource, IMHO. Period. :shrug:

Third, you can disagree with my statements (about passionate reactions when someone criticize Surefire), that´s ok. But I can recognize passionate reactions when I see them. I can point you dozens of closed threads, or reactions like "Uh oh... this thread will be closed!" just because someone start writing some critics over Surefire, or comparing Surefire with another chinese brand. 

When people start using hard words, offenses, irony, and so CPF Admins have to close the thread, IMHO, this means emotional reactions flowing, and things starting to get fire.

Excuse me, but do you remember about a closed thread about a comparions between Fenix and Nitecore lights? Or Fenix and EagleTac? No... neither do I.

For me, no problem at all. Like ALL manufacturers, I think Surefire has pros and cons. I can point pros and cons in EVERY light manufacturer... but, I think there are guys here that can´t point a single "cons" about Surefire.


That is the passionate reaction I was talking about.

Regards


----------



## Search (Mar 30, 2009)

I think most people often forget why SureFire is so popular and why it's so expensive when compared to lights that seem to perform better for cheaper.

You have to look at how it was created and who the intended market was/is mainly.

They invented the small, compact, durable, bright flashlight world. 

Their market IMO is and was designed for tactical/law enforcement/military/demanding professions. They took this engineering and designed civilian based lights following the same strict guidelines.

If you are in Iraq you don't want a light that can shine for a mile. Everyone knows where you are. 

If you are entering a building in a hostile environment you don't want a super bright light that will blind everyone, including yourself.

If you are checking the parts of an airplane on a Navy carrier, wouldn't you rather have a light that produces just enough light to do your job with a little extended runtime?

Take these three simple scenarios and remember that in all three, they have to work flawlessly and they have to take more abuse that many MANY people on here will never encounter..

Too much light is dumb. It's for people who want to show off and not for people who need them. You don't need 100000 lumens to do 95% of the things many would encounter in their profession.

You need something that will never fail, never quit making light, and doesn't have features that would make an elder have a stroke.

Multi modes? In LE, Military, and tactical worlds, this is never going to work except for certain people.

Ramping? Why? I would never, ever want that and many follow that. If you do, go find someone who does..

700+ lumens? To show off to your friends or are you using a handheld flashlight to search for people in the ocean from a helicopter? I doubt it. (The M6 Guardian with the 500 lumen upgrade has many uses, but it's not SureFires goal to make more lumens. Does not mean they didn't cover that.)

LEDs can't produce IR light. Therefore someone still needs to make quality Incandescent lights for people using night vision devices. This is why SureFire will always manufacture them.

I can go on and on about why what SureFire is doing right now is perfect.

There are so many companies making lights that if you want SureFire to do everything, you are forgetting what happens to companies who spend little time making many things instead of much time making a few things.

I buy SureFire because it does what I need it to do for the specific job and will ALWAYS do it..

NO, and I will repeat NO, flashlight can do everything.

With companies trying to making 1 light do 10 things, they can only be living in a different reality.

I'm tired of people complaining about SureFire, go buy something else and quit whining.


----------



## Lightraven (Mar 30, 2009)

Search said:


> 700+ lumens? To show off to your friends or are you using a handheld flashlight to search for people in the ocean from a helicopter?



Yes and yes (not from the helicopter, it has its own light).
---------------------------------------------------------------
CPF is a very different market than agency purchased lights for their soldiers and LEOs. I don't think anybody on CPF was saying, "You know what Surefire needs to make? A helmet light. It should have rear facing IR LEDs, in addition to blue and white forward facing LEDs." I suspect that came from the people who actually wear combat helmets.

I'll bet the Dev Gru weaponlight switch idea came from Dev Gru. I could be wrong, maybe it was CPF. Or the Ultra violet LEDs in the Beast II for examining passports by the border patrol. Or the flexi cuff cutters on their folding knives. I wasn't asking for a $400 flexi cuff cutter, I know that. What about rifle suppressors? Those are among the most esoteric items I can think of. I've never seen a suppressor in person, even among the SWAT and special forces I've trained with.

CPF is a valuable knowledge base for flashlight users and collectors, but to the extent that Surefire is dedicated to military and LE users, especially agency purchases, I don't see that CPF can tell them much that they don't already know.


----------



## socom1970 (Mar 30, 2009)

Wow... I guess there can't be even a simple poll on CPF (especially about Surefire) without someone getting upset about something.:shakehead

I've said before and I'll say it again. If you don't like Surefire products, don't buy them. There are LOTS of other lights from LOTS of other manufacturers that can be purchased. (And by companies who gear their lights towards civilians, campers, hikers, weekend warriors, whitewall hunters, mall ninjas and couch potatoes.) If you like one or more Surefire lights, but don't like some things about them, remember who their core end-users are. 

We are NOT the end-users Surefire is targeting their market focus towards. Our everyday heroes in the military, law enforcement, security, aviation, etc... are the ones Surefire is mainly geared towards. Surefire exists today because that community 25+ years ago wanted something better than 2D cell lights from hardware stores and Dr. John Matthews recognized that lasers and better lights were needed badly for all of those heroes to do their job right and come home alive. Why do you think some products are on backorder or unavailable at certain times? Because they are filling orders for the military, law enforcement, etc... FIRST. As it should be, IMHO. 

I want Surefire to continue making lights and other products that allow the people who fight, sweat and bleed for our freedom to do their jobs better and hopefully give them an edge over their enemies so they can come home alive, hopefully in Victory. Many of us will never need to use Surefire products to save our lives or the lives of others. 

We should count ourselves very fortunate that Surefire, PK, and others closely associated to them do listen to us. I consider it an honor that PK is a flashaholic and CPF'er just like us. They do not need to listen to us. But they do. They could exist just fine without our interest. But they seek our interest anyway.

I am not a Surefire fanatic by any stretch. I appreciate their lights for what they are. The lights I like and can afford are in my collection. But, I have many other brands of lights as well as many mods and custom lights that I buy when they suit me as well. And if a Surefire or other light doesn't suit me anymore, I mod it to suit me if I can afford it, sell it, trade it, or give it to someone who I know will appreciate it.

Ok. I'm done now.

By the way... I have 17 Surefires.


----------



## Toohotruk (Mar 30, 2009)

Wouldn't be too surprised to see this thread get closed too... :shakehead


----------



## bullfrog (Mar 30, 2009)

Search said:


> I'm tired of people complaining about SureFire, go buy something else and quit whining.



+1


----------



## Outdoors Fanatic (Mar 30, 2009)

bullfrog said:


> +1


*+2*


----------



## Benson (Mar 30, 2009)

Search said:


> LEDs can't produce IR light. Therefore someone still needs to make quality Incandescent lights for people using night vision devices. This is why SureFire will always manufacture them.


Nitpick: *white* LEDs produce almost no IR output, so you can't use a filtered white LED with IR NVG. But IR LEDs are very efficient emitters of IR, and have basically all the same advantages that white LEDs have for visual use. I understand that in some applications, a light that can be converted with a filter instead of a head swap is _highly_ desirable, and that's likely what you meant, but your statement as it stands is patently false.



> I can go on and on about why what SureFire is doing right now is perfect.


That's half the problem, IMHO. (Well, not you specifically, and not that you _can_, but that some people _do_ go on and on thus. After all, you stopped after only half a page. ) 


> I'm tired of people complaining about SureFire, go buy something else and quit whining.


And they're the other half.

On one side, some people seem to have a great emotional investment in the notion that SFs are "perfect"; on the other side, people have a similar investment in the notion that SFs are worse than other lights, on account of some combination of features, output, and price.

Either group, left alone, would simply buy lights that make them happy, but once someone from one side says something unfairly denigrating or praising SFs, the other side feels compelled to set the record straight. Of course, in so doing, they go too far for the first side to stand, so they pitch in. And then it turns into a mess. 

I'll be honest -- I've never actually handled a Surefire, and I definitely don't own one. (Although that'll change if/when I find a beat-up A2 for sale while I have the cash to spare...) But I can see that SFs are right for some applications, and wrong for others. Some who do own Surefires (even 17 of them!) accept that too, so it's not (as some seem to suggest) that once you hold one, you'll never buy anything else. It's just a few extremists on each side, IMHO, who get these started, and then many (ordinarily sane) people* feel the need to pile on for both sides.

SFs are right, even "perfect" (or as near as can be imagined), for some people and their lighting needs, and not at all right for others. But just because someone for whom it's right/wrong makes an over-the-top statement that it's perfect/terrible for everyone else _shouldn't_ demand a response from everyone for whom it's wrong/right, and especially not one implying that they're horrible/perfect for everyone.


*"A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky dangerous animals and you know it." -- K, in MIB


----------



## kaichu dento (Mar 30, 2009)

Federal LG said:


> First, this is not about bashing light manufacturers at all. Maybe you didn´t understand.
> 
> Second, If I wouldn´trust SF lights, I would not use them... Another thing, I don´t remember saying about any OBLIGATION of Surefire listening CPFer´s. I just said (repeating for the fifth time) that CPFers have a knowledge about lights that average people don´t, and THIS make them a valuable opinion resource, IMHO. Period. :shrug:
> 
> ...


Federal, great points you've made, but what's even more telling is the way in which others react to your statements as a SureFire supporter. You'd think your posts were a work of sacriledge, which is what a good number of posters seem to equate any criticism, no matter how mild, of their idols. :candle:

I think some of these quotes are the type of reactions you were also referring to.  


Search said:


> I think most people often forget why SureFire is so popular and why it's so expensive when compared to lights that seem to perform better for cheaper.
> 
> I can go on and on about why what SureFire is doing right now is perfect.
> 
> I'm tired of people complaining about SureFire, go buy something else and quit whining.


Methinks he doth protesteth overly much. Go ahead folks; if it's okay to say what you like/dislike about other lights and users opinions, it's okay to do so with SureFire as well.


Lightraven said:


> CPF is a valuable knowledge base for flashlight users and collectors, but to the extent that Surefire is dedicated to military and LE users, especially agency purchases, I don't see that CPF can tell them much that they don't already know.


SureFire is not manned by people from a different world and it's evident by reading through the forums that there are many here from whom SureFire could benefit and I think it's a bit insulting to the forum members to suggeest otherwise. :shakehead


socom1970 said:


> Wow... I guess there can't be even a simple poll on CPF (especially about Surefire) without someone getting upset about something.:shakehead
> 
> I've said before and I'll say it again. If you don't like Surefire products, don't buy them.


Sounds like you'd like to not allow us to voice any disapproval? But then...


socom1970 said:


> Wow... I guess there can't be even a simple poll on CPF (especially about Surefire) without someone getting upset about something.:shakehead
> 
> We should count ourselves very fortunate that Surefire, PK, and others closely associated to them do listen to us. I consider it an honor that PK is a flashaholic and CPF'er just like us. They do not need to listen to us. But they do. They could exist just fine without our interest. But they seek our interest anyway.


Reading these parts of your post sounds like you think that there may be some merit to our memberships opinions? I definitely think so, and also believe PK to be astute enough to recognize it as well. :wave:


Toohotruk said:


> Wouldn't be too surprised to see this thread get closed too... :shakehead


Hopefully not, but we'll see... oh, I ordered another E1e!


----------



## Lightraven (Mar 31, 2009)

kaichu dento said:


> SureFire is not manned by people from a different world and it's evident by reading through the forums that there are many here from whom SureFire could benefit and I think it's a bit insulting to the forum members to suggeest otherwise. :shakehead



I think Surefire could benefit from the input of CPF member PK. He seems to know a lot about flashlights. CPF member Ken Good might also have some thoughts about Surefire flashlights. And CPF'er [email protected] could probably give Surefire some help.

However, the format of CPF's anonymous public forums is not really conducive to product development for the military and law enforcement, especially the very tiny niche of "special operations." Am I insulting myself, as a years long member of CPF, member of the military and LE? I shouldn't think so. 

Some sites and forums require some credentials be verified. This would be an efficient way for Surefire, or other company to get rapid feedback from its target market, off-site engineers or other valued contributors. I have no reason to believe Surefire doesn't do this already.

If you were Colt, and you were designing improvements to the military rifle, would you want anonymous 14 year olds claiming to be SAS commandos telling you what they want? Yet, sifting through that chaff would be more work than simply making a trip to Fort Lewis (or wherever) and talking to the actual guys who'll use your product.

That being said, I think Surefire does keep an eye on what is going on with CPF, if for no other reason than. . .

. . . they are flashaholics, too.


----------



## kaichu dento (Mar 31, 2009)

Lightraven said:


> That being said, I think Surefire does keep an eye on what is going on with CPF, if for no other reason than. . .
> 
> . . . they are flashaholics, too.


You saved the distilling statement for last! This is all that needs said. :thumbsup:


----------



## firefly99 (Mar 31, 2009)

Why is it so difficult for CPF members to understand the following points:

a) Surefire create products for a specific market, unfortunately we on CPF is not part of that market
b) The price-points of Surefire products are very high
c) No amount of posts from online forums, will force Surefire to make products that cater to online users




GreyShark said:


> wanting a favorite brand to put out lights


Show Surefire your MONEY and commission them to create a light for you.




GreyShark said:


> lights that are competitive with what else is available on the market


Surefire products price are never competitive. However there are a lot of manufacturers keen to create a product that will meet your budget.




GreyShark said:


> we urge them to make improvements and are disappointed when that doesn't happen





GreyShark said:


> when exciting new models are promised but not delivered





GreyShark said:


> It isn't always enough and it isn't always satisfactory



What are you waiting for, vote with your wallet.



Search said:


> I'm tired of people complaining about SureFire, go buy something else and quit whining.


+1, Search, Agreed with everything you said in your post.


----------



## Search (Mar 31, 2009)

If anyone doesn't understand or can't justify why SureFire lights cost so much, don't have the same brightness as other flashlights, and don't have 6 modes, then that's fine. However, I think it's time to move on and find a company that meets your needs/wants.

When the day comes that SureFire quits doing exactly what it is they are doing or loses touch with who they are, my head is going to hang real low.


----------



## drmaxx (Mar 31, 2009)

This poll just convinced me NEVER to put my hands on a Surefire! It seems that once you got hooked there is no stopping anymore! 
Holy cow, less then 15% have only 1 SF light!
This is what I mean with: I can not afford to buy a (=the first) SF light! The consequences might just be way too expensive.
MUST RESIST!


----------



## Federal LG (Mar 31, 2009)

*Benson, drmaxx*, if you can (in a near future), buy one. It´s expensive when compared with some lights, but they´re another category of lights, specially because of their finish (machining quality), IMHO. I have 2 Surefires, and I love them. I have a crush on 1xCR123 lights, and in this category, Surefire rules the world. You have to hold and use one, to feel the thing on your fingers... (all my personal opinion, not an universal truth)

If someone think I´m not a SF supporter, or if someone think I am bashing SF here, well, they don´t understood a single point of what I said. Patience! My hope is Admins don´t think the same, and close the thread, or ban me, or something like that.

*Kaichu_dento*, thanks. :wave:


----------



## LED61 (Mar 31, 2009)

firefly99 said:


> Why is it so difficult for CPF members to understand the following points:
> 
> a) Surefire create products for a specific market, unfortunately we on CPF is not part of that market


 

I politely disagree.

There are MANY a CPF´r that is part of that market. There are professional pilots or recreational I don´t care, that need Surefire lights. There are LEO´s, some military too. Also, threre are cavers and hunters and other recreational users that use Surefire.

And Surefire sure enough has intended their lights for that market. This is substantiated by the type of advertising they do in magazines, their own catalog, and by the type of dealer network they have.

"We on CPF" could mean just about anything else except not being part of Surefire´s market.


----------



## GreyShark (Mar 31, 2009)

Search said:


> If anyone doesn't understand or can't justify why SureFire lights cost so much,



I seriously doubt any SureFire fan has a problem paying for a good light. What's disappointing is when a manufacturer cheaps out on a product.



> don't have the same brightness as other flashlights,



Different levels of brightness are useful for different situations but you also have to look at runtimes. The current crop of LED's could be getting more output for the same runtime or more runtime for the same output. It's purely a matter of efficiency. This is why I use Malkoff's instead of P60L's. It seems to me these two American companies could benefit from collaboration.



> and don't have 6 modes,



SureFire does make multi-mode lights. In fact the U2 Ultra has 6 modes as per SureFire's website.



> FEATURES
> 
> 
> Six selectable levels of light output from 5-watt LED



I don't see why we can't all just look at things objectively.


----------



## kaichu dento (Mar 31, 2009)

Federal LG said:


> *Benson, drmaxx*, if you can (in a near future), buy one. It´s expensive when compared with some lights, but they´re another category of lights, specially because of their finish (machining quality), IMHO. I have 2 Surefires, and I love them. I have a crush on 1xCR123 lights, and in this category, Surefire rules the world. You have to hold and use one, to feel the thing on your fingers... (all my personal opinion, not an universal truth)
> 
> If someone think I´m not a SF supporter, or if someone think I am bashing SF here, well, they don´t understood a single point of what I said. Patience! My hope is Admins don´t think the same, and close the thread, or ban me, or something like that.
> 
> *Kaichu_dento*, thanks. :wave:


No problem, I'm a supporter of rational thinkers everywhere! :thumbsup:


GreyShark said:


> I seriously doubt any SureFire fan has a problem paying for a good light.
> 
> I don't see why we can't all just look at things objectively.


+1

The problem comes in when people get a soccer attitude about the things that they like and any perceived slight is sure to bring the choir out in protest. There is nothing made by man that is perfect and SureFire, despite all it's excellence is no exception.


----------



## nbp (Apr 5, 2009)

Or we could just get back to talking about how many Surefires we all have! 



Anyways, I posted before when I voted for three Surefires, but now I have four 

I got a great deal on an L4 at a Sportsman's Warehouse liquidation sale, and well, you know how it goes :devil:


----------



## Bullzeyebill (Apr 6, 2009)

Federal LG said:


> *Benson, drmaxx*, if you can (in a near future), buy one. It´s expensive when compared with some lights, but they´re another category of lights, specially because of their finish (machining quality), IMHO. I have 2 Surefires, and I love them. I have a crush on 1xCR123 lights, and in this category, Surefire rules the world. You have to hold and use one, to feel the thing on your fingers... (all my personal opinion, not an universal truth)
> 
> If someone think I´m not a SF supporter, or if someone think I am bashing SF here, well, they don´t understood a single point of what I said. Patience! My hope is Admins don´t think the same, and close the thread, or ban me, or something like that.
> 
> *Kaichu_dento*, thanks. :wave:



Federal LG, this is your thread, and you are responsible for steering it. NBP has a point.

Bill


----------



## jzmtl (Apr 6, 2009)

Just one, soon to be zero. I'm a lab rat (biologist) not SWAT, their design just don't suit my use as well as other brands. May or may not change in the future.


----------



## Outdoors Fanatic (Jul 23, 2009)

Outdoors Fanatic said:


> 23 and counting.


28 now, blame CPF!


----------



## 270winchester (Jul 23, 2009)

I lost count after 15.

For me it's simple, Surefires work, from my oldest 6P to the newest ones. I don't need extreme strobe or mega throw in my lights, I have a Ra and a modified mag for that, so I'm covered. I need lights that puts enough light for what I need to see when I need it.

Keep them coming SF!!!


----------



## gsxrac (Jul 23, 2009)

Yea when I posted here I only had 3 now I have 8? That was only 4 months ago that means ive bought 5 in the last 4 months alone not even counting my other light purchases!? Man CPF really takes a toll on your wallet doesnt it? I seriously thought everybody was crazy when I first started looking at the vast collections of flashlights (mainly the Surefire collections) And now im nearing 20ish lights in my collection almost half are Surefires and ive already got at least 4 more Surefire purchases planed for the near future?


----------



## Outdoors Fanatic (Jul 23, 2009)

270winchester said:


> I lost count after 15.
> 
> For me it's simple, Surefires work, from my oldest 6P to the newest ones. I don't need extreme strobe or mega throw in my lights, I have a Ra and a modified mag for that, so I'm covered. I need lights that puts enough light for what I need to see when I need it.
> 
> Keep them coming SF!!!


+1 

Great post!

But I disagree with one thing in your post: My KT2 throws like crazy, so some SureFire lights do have "mega-throw".

Keep 'em coming SF!


----------



## DimeRazorback (Jul 23, 2009)

I have 8 with more on their way


----------



## Outdoors Fanatic (Jul 23, 2009)

gsxrac said:


> Yea when I posted here I only had 3 now I have 8? That was only 4 months ago that means ive bought 5 in the last 4 months alone not even counting my other light purchases!? Man CPF really takes a toll on your wallet doesnt it? I seriously thought everybody was crazy when I first started looking at the vast collections of flashlights (mainly the Surefire collections) And now im nearing 20ish lights in my collection almost half are Surefires and ive already got at least 4 more Surefire purchases planed for the near future?


Ha ha ha! 

You'll eventually become just like one of these nutjobs(I know I am...) https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/203101

SureFire is a a disease and the only cure is BUY more SF!


----------



## kaichu dento (Jul 24, 2009)

I just became the happy owner of an E1B, which I add to my 2 E1e's and 2 Titans.

Just bought it on a whim and kind of regretted it almost immediately, but when I got it I knew it was going to stay!


----------



## 270winchester (Jul 24, 2009)

Outdoors Fanatic said:


> +1
> 
> 
> But I disagree with one thing in your post: My KT2 throws like crazy, so some SureFire lights do have "mega-throw".



Try pocket carry anything with the KT2. :nana:

that reminds me, I love the N62 beam.


----------



## OscarTheDog (Jul 25, 2009)

I now have 4 surefire lights and my collection is growing. lovecpf

OTD


----------



## kwkarth (Jul 25, 2009)

I guess I have 9 currently.

1 E1E w/ extra LED head
1 E2E
1 E2D
1 C3

1 A2

1 E1L
1 E2L
1 L2
1 L4


----------



## jp2515 (Jul 25, 2009)

jp2515 said:


> Currently got 4.



Well now the collection has grown a bit. Lets see:

C3+Turbohead
6P
G2
G3
C2 
M2
L1
E2DL
L4 SSC P4

I have a feeling there will be more to come (LX2 and who knows what else )


----------

