# Manker LAD, a new 219c option, alternative to the Tip?



## jon_slider (Dec 11, 2016)

The Manker Lad, a new offering. 





not a review, more of a dare you to buy one, so I can watch..

I hope someone who does buy one, will share their impressions. does it have PWM, does it activate accidentally in a pocket, etc

Backstory on the Tip here. Im hoping this thread can help us TipTurboPosters move on 

The LAD (compared and contrasted to the TIP):
claims to use constant current (so does the Tip but its not true)
has a charging port cover (Tip does not)
has only 1 recessed button (Tip has 2 protruding buttons)
claims 300 lumens (Tip claims 360)
Nichia 219c option (two Nichia 219b options)
USB rechargeable (same)
25 grams (21 grams)
3 colors (9 colors)
Lowest non red mode, 23 lumens (Tip has a low of 1 lumen)
4 different strobes (No Strobe)
no battery meter or low battery warning mentioned in link (yes battery meter and low battery warning)
no lockout mode mentioned (the Tip has the World Famous Two Button Lockout Mode! second to none!…)
waterproof rating IPX-6 (waterproof rating IP54)
mode memory yes (also yes)

this is a draft, please help with corrections or additions


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## Desdinova (Dec 11, 2016)

Love it!!!:goodjob:


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## Skeeterg (Dec 11, 2016)

Sex appeal,hoping it works better than my TIP.


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## bansuri (Dec 12, 2016)

Looks cool, if a little rushed. The solo pic of the front of the red model looks like their screwdriver slipped out of 3 of the screws and they simply gave up on the top right one. Edges look a little rough.
Of course I'll order one _to get a closer look_. It hasn't been that long that the only lights remotely like this were custom made in small quantities and many times this cost. 
I bought one of the MecArmy lights like this but the PWM was unbearable on low, UI was an afterthought.
Oh yeah, here's the pic of the front: http://cdn3.bigcommerce.com/s-4buan...98/red-01__01165.1481275033.1280.1280.jpg?c=2


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## Tac Gunner (Dec 12, 2016)

Well I was interested until I saw the lowest mode is 23 lumens. In a light like this that is just way to high, needs a mode of no more than 1 lumen.


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## bansuri (Dec 12, 2016)

Tac Gunner said:


> Well I was interested until I saw the lowest mode is 23 lumens. In a light like this that is just way to high, needs a mode of no more than 1 lumen.



Bummer. I guess they think we'll use the 1 lumen red if we want low level lighting. Think I'm gonna hold off on this for now or at least wait to hear CPFer reviews. 
Some of these companies are pretty quick to respond, might adjust the levels in response to customer requests.


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## jon_slider (Dec 12, 2016)

Tac Gunner said:


> Well I was interested until I saw the lowest mode is 23 lumens. In a light like this that is just way to high, needs a mode of no more than 1 lumen.


that was my first reaction as well, but then my sense of humor kicked in and I came up with some debatable points of dubious merit.. LOL

1. for their "Target Market", (appropriate pun for a Gunner dont you think?) maybe it makes sense to have a LAD that starts on a 23 lumen medium, and, 
2. it might be a real eye opener to discover that at 1 lumen, a red LED is very useful, and Tac tical (as in Tac Gunner.. aint I a hoot?), without any glare from the LAD.. 
3. I know I prefer warm CCT at 1 lumen (cant get much warmer than red, right LAD?)… 
4. Remember, the LAD offers a Nichia 219c.. how many other lights can you buy with that LED today? Be the first on your block… 
5. LAD, let me give you a TIP, dont be so flashy. (enough with the LAD jokes, for now :devil


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## chillinn (Dec 12, 2016)

Um... want. You should compare this to the Surefire Sidekick. If the Manker is CC, want, esp. with red low and Nichia 219c (but, is it a highCRI version of 219c? not all 219c are highCRI). Anyway, $25 is cheap for a flat, rechargeable A2 Aviator. 

Folks, moonlight, well, really when members specify 'moonlight' they are being romantic, and don't really mean 'moonlight,' they mean 'firefly.' Bugs just aren't as romantic. Anyway, I sure do love that low low firefly mode on flashlights... most everyone does. But no one is willing to admit, just like shocking brightness and low runtime, that firefly/moonlight has pretty limited usefulness. It's absense shouldn't stop you in your tracks from buying, the way PWM SHOULD, but doesn't (except for jon_slider and I).


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## jon_slider (Dec 12, 2016)

chillinn said:


> compare this to the Surefire Sidekick.


according to this, 
both the Sidekick and the Tube have PWM, and for that matter so does the TIP

people buy PWM ALL the time
except for chillinn and me (theres someone else here too that refuses to buy PWM.. I will try to remember who it is)

besides, the Sidekick low is 500% higher than the 1 lumen low that both the LAD, the TUBE, and even the TIP.. and the Sidekick costs 250% more than a LAD or TIP, and 600% more than the Tube. The High mode on the Tube is not even close to the LAD, whose high mode is just as high as the Sidekick, for less money. The LAD also weighs less than _Half_ as much as a Sidekick.

Now if it turns out the LAD is really a constant current light, it will join a very RARE group of LiIon lights. Many people here like LiIon, and in a rechargeable format it makes a great Xmas gift.. 

Friends dont let LADs use Alkalines in their lights 

Besides, the LAD is the only one of the lights mentioned that offers a Nichia 219c, which of course is High CRI, nobody would want a Low CRI Nichia, that just isn't done. People who want low CRI, buy bright lights that use XPL and XM-L2 LEDs, and let me tell you _This_ LAD is not one of them.


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## chillinn (Dec 12, 2016)

jon_slider said:


> the Sidekick costs 250% more than a LAD



If a LAD is $25, and the Sidekick retails between $72-$80, then math...
A Sidekick costs between *280%-320%* more than a LAD.

:green:

Thanks for the comparison; well done.


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## Streamer (Dec 12, 2016)

*LAD* :touche: *TIP
**VS
subscribed...*​


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## iamlucky13 (Dec 12, 2016)

Dragon breath mode? I'm sure that's not simply misspelling of some conventional feature like they did with "stobe," so what does it mean? Strobing the red LED's only?

Looks like it's basically the same thickness as the Tip, but a little bit wider and shorter in length.
Tip: 2.39 x 0.96 x 0.53
LAD: 2.01 x 1.10 x 0.51

Tip has the bigger battery (500 mAh vs 280 mAh). Efficiency in the two mid modes looks pretty similar.

It seems a good bet that the slightly heavier weight of the Manker is mostly in the case. It certainly looks pretty solid.

Nice to see another option. I suspect we'll see others coming out with similar keychain lights soon, too.


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## jon_slider (Dec 12, 2016)

iamlucky13 said:


> Dragon breath mode? I'm sure that's not simply misspelling of some conventional feature like they did with "stobe," so what does it mean? Strobing the red LED's only?
> 
> Looks like it's basically the same thickness as the Tip, but a little bit wider and shorter in length.
> Tip: 2.39 x 0.96 x 0.53
> ...


Excellent comments. Dragon breath sounds plausible too, I wondered about that. Also wondered what a red Straw Hat LED is.


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## Streamer (Dec 12, 2016)

Dragon Breath Mode is a location beacon mode that ramps up and down v e r y s l o w l y from a Deep-Blue LED beneath the semi-transparent switch boot. It's actually very mesmerizing to watch and you will not have trouble finding this light in the dark. I base such observation on an U-11 Manker. So LAD should be similar.

Red Straw Hat Led.._.my translation._... 1 red led situated on each side of the main LED.


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## jon_slider (Dec 13, 2016)

Streamer said:


> Dragon Breath Mode is a location beacon mode that ramps up and down v e r y s l o w l y from a Deep-Blue LED beneath the semi-transparent switch boot.



Thank You for the Blue Dragon info 
and I agree the straw hats are the red leds

I did a Straw Hat LEDs google and got this.. 
I think the gist of it is that:

Red Straw Hat = Red Flood Beam 

(not a typical domed 5mm LED)

compare and contrast:
LAD has a blue locator beacon mode, but no low battery warning? (Tip has no strobe or locator modes, but it does have a low battery flash)


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## Desdinova (Dec 13, 2016)

iamlucky13 said:


> Nice to see another option. I suspect we'll see others coming out with similar keychain lights soon, too.



I hope so. For some reason, this form factor really appeals to me, but all the offerings seem to fall short in some way or another.


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## jon_slider (Dec 13, 2016)

Desdinova said:


> all the offerings seem to fall short in some way or another.


yes, hard to get a perfect mix of options for differing needs and priorities.

specific to the LAD, what features are missing, or undesireable, for your preferences?

things I like about it
1. USB rechargeable, potentially a good gift for a nonflashoholic, prevents them from needing to buy batteries and avoids them using Alkaleaks
2. starts on a useful medium level
3. It has a 1 lumen low (not sure if I will like the red, but have not tried, and it may be useful)
4. It has a Nichia
5. Simple 1 button UI, and the button is flush mounted, does not stick up above the body.

things that would be dealbreakers for me
1. If the Nichia is Low CRI
2. If the driver uses pulses that interfere with my photos
3. If the button is too easily accidentally activated in pocket

things it has that are not important to me
1. Mode Memory
2. strobes

things I wish it had that might become a deal breaker in practice
1. No Battery meter (I wonder if my multimeter could read the charge level thru the USB port or cable?)
2. No Low Battery warning


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## Streamer (Dec 13, 2016)

Battery capacity of Lad is @ half of the Tip's.


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## chillinn (Dec 13, 2016)

Streamer said:


> Battery capacity of Lad is @ half of the Tip's.



That does seem problematic. But I think it may be irrelevant. What matters is runtime. What we need are selfbuilt runtime graphs of both models in all their modes. Then we can say, if it is so, "the runtime of the LAD is half that of the Tip's. What gives?" and then the answer would obviously be, uh... capacity. But if the runtimes are within reach of each other, capacity is then less relevant.


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## jon_slider (Dec 13, 2016)

chillinn said:


> What matters is runtime.



I agree the LAD battery is much smaller, however it has better performance specs overall. Of course I do not believe runtime specs, until there are independent tests.. I also dont believe Lumen specs, some companies report LED Lumens instead of ANSII, and in both cases can be inaccurate.

LAD specs:
High: 300 lumens, 0.5 hour
Medium: 86 lumens, 1.5 hour
Low: 23 lumens, 5.6 hours
Red: 1 lumen, 100 hours

TipCRI specs:
Turbo: 240 Lumens / 30 min
High: 95 Lumens / 1 hr 30 min
Mid: 22 Lumens / 6 hr 30 min
Low: 1 Lumens / 46 hr

compare and contrast 


highest mode, LAD is 60 lumens (+25%) brighter, same runtime as TipCRI
second highest mode, LAD is 9 lumens (-10%) less bright, same runtime as TipCRI
second lowest mode, Lad is 1 lumen higher, 54 minutes (-14%) less runtime than TipCRI
lowest mode, LAD is red 1 lumen, Tip is white 1 lumen, LAD has 54 hours (+117%) longer runtime than TipCRI


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## iamlucky13 (Dec 13, 2016)

chillinn said:


> That does seem problematic. But I think it may be irrelevant. What matters is runtime. What we need are selfbuilt runtime graphs of both models in all their modes. Then we can say, if it is so, "the runtime of the LAD is half that of the Tip's. What gives?" and then the answer would obviously be, uh... capacity. But if the runtimes are within reach of each other, capacity is then less relevant.



The expectations they set are very comparable. The model with the smaller battery primarily compromises on output rather than runtime. Here's a quick math check for the Cree variants showing what I stated above, using a simplified efficiency metric of output * runtime / battery capacity


*Low*
*Med*
*High
**Turbo
**LAD**
1lm / 100hrs
23lm / 5.6hrs
86lm / 1.5hrs
300lm / 0.5hrs
0.36 lm/mA
0.46 lm/mA
0.46 lm/mA
0.54 lm/mA
*Tip*
1lm / 46hrs
35lm / 6.5hrs
150lm / 1.5hrs
360lm / 0.5hrs
0.09 lm/mA
0.46 lm/mA
0.45 lm/mA
0.36 lm/mA

* Low via red LED's only

This is similar to what we see from other lights - at the lowest mode, any overhead power requirements for the driver become significant, and the Tip "only" gets 2 days of runtime. In mid-modes, many lights show very comparable performance and we see that here (in both cases here, ~120 lumens/W). At the highest mode, overall efficiency often declines, but this can appear to be offset if the light steps down or falls out of regulation. It is likely the LAD falls out of regulation earlier than the Tip.

As I said above, the LAD likely has a more durable case. It also preserves room inside that case for the two small red LED's, and possibly for a more sophisticated constant current driver that works better in low mode. It also provides enough of a recess to keep the button flush.

And of course, the Tip gives you more output in each mode and a slightly different body shape.

So there's plenty to differentiate the two depending on individual preferences.


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## narmattaru (Dec 13, 2016)

cool news! looks like small rectangular keylight is a new trend ))

tomorrow i`ll get Mecarmy SGN7 delievered, then i`ll grab TIP from one guy i know and try to compare them. i also seriusly believe that i`ll have a chance to get also this new mecarmy for review, so we`ll see winner.

btw, small offtop - russian company Yarkij Luch ("Bright Beam") released really cool forum keylight *YL SCORPION* , that was constructed with assistance of our russian forum.fonarevka.ru
if they sell it abroad, i`ll give you link to store that sells this little nice light.


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## Desdinova (Dec 13, 2016)

A more straightforward UI, red LEDs don't mean much to me, nor do strobe or "dragon breath", especially on this type of light, direct access to turbo and/or low, battery capacity (maybe).

I actually liked the TIP, until I took it out of my pocket dead TWICE! Once, it came on, once it locked itself out. At least the LAD has some weather resistance. I'll probably buy one anyway (gun grey).


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## Desdinova (Dec 13, 2016)

I guess I'm looking for the flashlight equivalent to a Swiss Army Classic pocketknife, if you know what I mean.


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## jon_slider (Dec 13, 2016)

iamlucky13 said:


> Here's a quick math check for the Cree variants


Love your comparison charts
it made me realize the LAD does not specify separate specs for the Nichia version, so jury is still out on the lumen levels and my comparison to the TipCRI lumens may not be accurate at all (cree vs Nichia runtime will probably stay the same, but LAD Nichia lumens could be 1/3 lower than the Cree Version.)

here is my guesstimate
Output & Runtime Nichia guess (66% of Cree, based on Tip 360 vs Tip 240):
Red: 0.7 lumen, 100 hours (TipCRI is 50% brighter?)
Low: 15 lumens, 5.6 hours (TipCRI is 47% brighter?)
Medium: 58 lumens, 1.5 hour (TipCRI is 64% brighter?)
High: 201 lumens, 0.5 hour (TipCRI is 19% brighter?)



narmattaru said:


> Mecarmy SGN7


I hope you enjoy it.  
The TAD has important differences (to Me), it offers a Nichia option and claims to use Constant Current.
SGN3&7 offer NoNichia, SGN3 has PWM, and it weighs as much as Two LADs.




Desdinova said:


> I guess I'm looking for the flashlight equivalent to a Swiss Army Classic pocketknife, if you know what I mean.



I kind of _do_ know what you mean, I like the scissors and toothpick options.. I also like the variation on the classic that has a pen and a red LED (Midnite Manager).






In a small pocket flashlight I like a low of ~1 lumen, HighCRI, NoPWM, and <5000k CCT. (My Maratacs have constant current drivers and High CRI LED swaps)


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## Desdinova (Dec 13, 2016)

For some reason, the small AA/AAA lights never did it for me, not sure why. I guess I'm looking for a Photon Micro-Light II (which I do carry and kind of like) on steroids:shakehead

I'm an admitted flashaholic. I just can't live without flashahol.:drunk:


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## Manker (Dec 14, 2016)




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## jon_slider (Dec 15, 2016)

Desdinova said:


> I guess I'm looking for a Photon Micro-Light II (which I do carry and kind of like) on steroids:shakehead



I also carried a Photon on my keys for many years. I then graduated to a Pico Light, also on my keys. After that I got into AAA lights, but I dont keep them on my keys. At this stage, I only buy lights with constant current and high CRI, which rules out the Tip and SGN. 

Im waiting for beam and LED photos confirming the LAD is constant current and High CRI.




Manker said:


>


Thanks for the pics.

What is the CRI, CCT, and Lumens for the 219c version?


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## chillinn (Dec 15, 2016)

jon_slider said:


> What is the CRI, CCT, and Lumens for the 219c version?



Do tell, Manker! Also, if you could tell us more about this "Red straw hat" LED, you will be loved. Who manufactures the red LED? What is that red LED, exactly (what is the manufacturer's part named)? What wavelength range of red spectrum is it, in nm?

Also, is "LAD" an acronym? If so, what do these letters stand for? 

TIA


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## Streamer (Dec 15, 2016)

LAD >>>>> "Life After Death".... (_of the V-1 Tip_)


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## Desdinova (Dec 15, 2016)

jon_slider said:


> At this stage, I only buy lights with constant current and high CRI, which rules out the Tip and SGN.



I carry various lights clipped to my left front pocket, in addition to another in my Maxpedition Fatboy S. The Photon is just a backup, backup, backup.

I also am opposed to PWM in theory, and I'm sure I own lights that have it, but, and don't judge me too harshly, I've never experienced it!? I don't know if I can't see it or what. Is that weird? I totally get the CRI, though. I CAN see that! I will occasionally suffer through a cool white light when I'm armed, but that's only for a specific role (tactical light, potential self defense).


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## NutSAK (Dec 15, 2016)

Desdinova said:


> I also am opposed to PWM in theory, and I'm sure I own lights that have it, but, and don't judge me too harshly, I've never experienced it!? I don't know if I can't see it or what.



Count yourself lucky and don't try to see it if you haven't noticed it yet. There are many great lights out there that have PWM but, unfortunately, I'm one of the unlucky ones that is easily distracted by it unless it is at a very high frequency, so I'm limited to my choices.

IMO, there's no reason to be opposed to it if it doesn't bother you. It is an efficient way of controlling output and maintaining tint at lower outputs.


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## jon_slider (Dec 15, 2016)

Desdinova said:


> I also am opposed to PWM in theory, and I'm sure I own lights that have it, but, and don't judge me too harshly, I've never experienced it!? I don't know if I can't see it or what. Is that weird?



Not weird, Im the weird one
I take photos of my flashlight beams, and PWM creates interference
there are more subtle effects from PWM, such as headaches or a sort of "hypnotic" effect, but those are more difficult to quantify or demonstrate in a forum post.

if you dont "notice it", Im happy for you. Most people are unaware of PWM, its just a few wierdos like me that have a strong objection to it.

You can learn all about PWM detection strategies in this thread #32

But I am in no way trying to convince anyone to be as PWM phobic as I am.. its just a personal choice.


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## iamlucky13 (Dec 15, 2016)

Desdinova said:


> I also am opposed to PWM in theory, and I'm sure I own lights that have it, but, and don't judge me too harshly, I've never experienced it!? I don't know if I can't see it or what. Is that weird? I totally get the CRI, though. I CAN see that! I will occasionally suffer through a cool white light when I'm armed, but that's only for a specific role (tactical light, potential self defense).



Not weird at all. I'm pretty sure the overwhelming majority of people do not notice anything much above 120 Hz, if not even 50-60 Hz.

Seeing typical PWM frequencies is like a super-power that serves mainly to annoy the people possessing the power.

The more probable way most of us are likely to encounter PWM problems is if it causes artifacts in our photos or videos, or if it's part of a poorly regulated brightness control.


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## Manker (Dec 15, 2016)

chillinn said:


> Do tell, Manker! Also, if you could tell us more about this "Red straw hat" LED, you will be loved. Who manufactures the red LED? What is that red LED, exactly (what is the manufacturer's part named)? What wavelength range of red spectrum is it, in nm?
> 
> Also, is "LAD" an acronym? If so, what do these letters stand for?
> 
> TIA




Hey chillinn,
"LAD" means youth.
Details about the"Red straw hat LED":


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## Manker (Dec 15, 2016)

jon_slider said:


> I also carried a Photon on my keys for many years. I then graduated to a Pico Light, also on my keys. After that I got into AAA lights, but I dont keep them on my keys. At this stage, I only buy lights with constant current and high CRI, which rules out the Tip and SGN.
> 
> Im waiting for beam and LED photos confirming the LAD is constant current and High CRI.
> 
> ...



Hey jon slider,

LAD Nichia 219C: CRI>90, CCT 4000K, about 220 lumens.


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## chillinn (Dec 15, 2016)

Manker said:


> Hey jon slider,
> 
> LAD Nichia 219C: CRI>90, CCT 4000K, about 220 lumens.



w00t 

(sorry for the crosspost in the other thread, i got a little anxious)


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## Manker (Dec 19, 2016)

LAD is available on amazon.com now, and amazon offer shipping services.


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## superedge88 (Dec 19, 2016)

Manker said:


> LAD is available on amazon.com now, and amazon offer shipping services.


Waiting for the grey option, can't find it anywhere!


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## LightObsession (Dec 19, 2016)

I see this after I ordered 5!TIP yesterday. May try one of these, too.


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## irongate (Dec 19, 2016)

superedge88 said:


> Waiting for the grey option, can't find it anywhere!



Check E Bay


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## superedge88 (Dec 19, 2016)

irongate said:


> Check E Bay




I did check ebay, did you find it on ebay somewhere? I can only find red and black.


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## irongate (Dec 19, 2016)

superedge88 said:


> I did check ebay, did you find it on ebay somewhere? I can only find red and black.



Sorry about that, Grey is (out of stock) That is the Hot item I guess.


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## superedge88 (Dec 19, 2016)

irongate said:


> Sorry about that, Grey is (out of stock) That is the Hot item I guess.



Manker says that dealers cleaned them out of the grey, but I haven't been able to find a single dealer online that carries the grey.


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## Streamer (Dec 19, 2016)

Not only am I waiting on grey....I'm also waiting on reviews...


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## superedge88 (Dec 19, 2016)

Streamer said:


> Not only am I waiting on grey....I'm also waiting on reviews...



If I can get my hands on a grey I will do a full review answering any questions that anyone has under any (non destructive to the flashlight) conditions.


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## Desdinova (Dec 19, 2016)

Streamer said:


> Not only am I waiting on grey....I'm also waiting on reviews...



I'm with you.


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## jon_slider (Dec 19, 2016)

jon_slider said:


> dare you to buy one


8 days and 47 posts later, Ive seen several posts by people who have ordered.
should not be long now before the LAD goes head to head with a TIP

looking forward to the beamshots comparing Tint, Temperature, CRI and PWM

Flashlight application question/discussion:

As a gift for a college age daughter with little prior interest in flashlights (she uses her cell phone as a flashlight), I wonder if the LAD or the TIP would have the most useful UI as a keychain light. To be used when leaving work at night to illuminate the path and parking lot on the way to her car.

The other night I used my pocket AAA light when we left a restaurant together, to illuminate and avoid several large rainpuddles in the unlit parking lot.

Realizing she could avoid getting her fancy leather boots wet, she commented with enthusiasm, "Now THATS convenient!"

The next day I convinced her to accept a gift of a Pico Light, which I saw her using on a keychain after that, to illuminate the front door lock. I complimented her on adopting a lighting tool. She shared concern that the batteries on her light will eventually wear out. I told her not to worry that I have spare lights 

This got me to thinking about a USB rechargeable light option for her, so I asked, do you already own a mini USB charging cable.. yes, she has some wireless headphones that use it..

That led me to researching mini USB keychain option, some smaller than the LAD and TIP, that use 10180 cells. But for the sake of this thread staying on topic of, is the LAD an alternative to the TIP… Which one would be the simplest, easiest, most likely to be adopted by a reluctant newbie.

For a young woman walking across an unlit parking lot at night, dodging rain puddles in the dark, Would the LAD or the TIP be most likely to be adopted?

for example, How do they compare in ease of access with a single keystroke, to a useful brightness to illuminate ones footsteps, without draining the battery too fast?

so I checked the medium modes of the Nichia models, 
1. the LAD is 23 lumens the TIP is 22
2. The LAD battery is almost half the size of the TIP
3. both lights have mode memory, but they operate differently. For the LAD hold the button to return to last mode used, hold again to turn off. For the TIP, click the correct button out of 2 choices, to turn on in last mode used, and click the same button to turn off. Also, the LAD will always come on in medium first with a single click, while the TIP can only give direct access to Medium if it was last mode used, otherwise, the TIP starts at 1 lumen by holding the correct button, and advances to medium by clicking the other button..
4. the LAD only has one recessed button, the TIP has 2 protruding buttons

what is a higher priority, the number of buttons, or the size of the battery?
Im leaning toward the LAD, I think the TIP UI is way too confusing for a newbie.


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## HarveyRich (Dec 20, 2016)

To be a little off topic, I'm waiting to see what the MecArmy SGN7 will be like. It's to be about the same size/shape of the TIP with a 550 lumen max output using a CREE XP G2 S4 LED (compared to the 360 of the TIP). It also is supposed to be able to be used as an alarm and emergency power bank, and is also USB rechargeable. Here's a link to the appropriate MecArmy page: http://www.mecarmy.com/product/details/96/143


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## NutSAK (Dec 20, 2016)

jon_slider said:


> what is a higher priority, the number of buttons, or the size of the battery?
> Im leaning toward the LAD, I think the TIP UI is way too confusing for a newbie.



If the quoted specs are accurate, I wouldn't be as concerned about runtime/size of the battery differences as I would be with the UI. The Nichia 219C in the LAD offers a distinct efficiency advantage over that of the TIP's 219B. IMO, the convenience of charging that these products provide offsets some concern of short runtime as well.


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## AVService (Dec 20, 2016)

I think you may be missing the point entirely about the College kid and the light?

Fenix E01 or similar,one speed,common battery NOTHING else really matters at all!

I have 2 nieces and their idiot brother all teens or slightly older,he is a nerd and they are typical urban princesses.

I have done this experiment myself a few different times and I end up getting the lights back and getting the girls E01s every time!
He is certainly much more capable and sophisticated and you would think more apt to adapt to even the most simple interface that we take for granted but......not to put too fine a point on this,he thinks his phones speakers are great!

Know what I mean?

We know this as a hobby and not many others really understand at all in my experience.

But I am sure eager to hear how it goes.




jon_slider said:


> 8 days and 47 posts later, Ive seen several posts by
> 
> people who have ordered.
> should not be long now before the LAD goes head to head with a TIP
> ...


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## iamlucky13 (Dec 20, 2016)

NutSAK said:


> If the quoted specs are accurate, I wouldn't be as concerned about runtime/size of the battery differences as I would be with the UI. The Nichia 219C in the LAD offers a distinct efficiency advantage over that of the TIP's 219B. IMO, the convenience of charging that these products provide offsets some concern of short runtime as well.



Based on the comparison table I posted on the previous page, it looks like the efficiency is extremely similar in the mid-modes. The 219C's real advantage likely shows up at higher power levels, although my table isn't a good way to understand its efficiency on turbo, because it almost certainly falls out of regulation at some point.

I agree that battery life in the highest mode shouldn't be a major concern for a convenience light like this. If you want sustained 300 lumens, it's not going to fit on your keychain. For lights that do fit on your keychain, USB charging is a bonus, in my opinion.



AVService said:


> Fenix E01 or similar,one speed,common battery NOTHING else really matters at all!
> 
> I have 2 nieces and their idiot brother all teens or slightly older,he is a nerd and they are typical urban princesses.
> 
> I have done this experiment myself a few different times and I end up getting the lights back and getting the girls E01s every time!



Interesting. If anything as a flashlight alternative, I would have expected them to just use flash on their phones, assuming they have smartphones. If they do have smartphones, but choose to use the E01's, that really affirms just how handy a dedicated flashlight is, even if it's "dim" by today's standards.

Still, I have a hard time seeing either the LAD's short press on/cycle through modes and long press off/memory, or the Tip's one button for on/off and another for cycling through modes as a barrier to use for most people.


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## tops2 (Dec 20, 2016)

jon_slider said:


> 4. the LAD only has one recessed button, the TIP has 2 protruding buttons
> 
> what is a higher priority, the number of buttons, or the size of the battery?
> Im leaning toward the LAD, I think the TIP UI is way too confusing for a newbie.



For the TIP, personally I think if you teach them one button on off and the other button is brightness, that's probably all they need/will use. Teaching them lock out I think is pretty important too if they're going to pocket/purse carry. I actually had one accidental activation in my pants on high yesterday. Noticed my leg was getting warm after may driving 20-30 minutes home...didn't think it was the car heater that I turned on! 

We'll see how well the recessed button on the LAD will work in real usage.
But for normal people that may not care about CRI, maybe the normal TIP will be a better option as it'll be brighter for them?


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## fulabeer (Dec 21, 2016)

My LAD has arrived. Just charging it before a little bit of testing etc.


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## Jomohr84 (Dec 21, 2016)

Looking like a nice alternative to the TIP, interested to see opinions


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## Tixx (Dec 21, 2016)

Thanks for the heads up about this light

"claims 300 lumens (Tip claims 360)" I don't think that number for TIP is in relation to the Nichia 219 though.


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## jon_slider (Dec 21, 2016)

fulabeer said:


> My LAD has arrived.


Merry Xmas!
I have lots of questions.. 
fwiw, here are a couple of posts about beamshot comparisons #523 #525 #585
and this post shows how a closeup beamshot can capture PWM #32


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## fulabeer (Dec 21, 2016)

I'm no expert at this so please excuse the basic tests etc.
Manker LAD on lowest setting.




Nitecore Tube on low setting.


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## jon_slider (Dec 21, 2016)

fulabeer said:


> I'm no expert at this so please excuse the basic tests etc.


outstanding, thank you
looks like the LAD shows NoPWM.. winner! That beats the TIP which shows PWM even though the mfg claims it does not use PWM.

fwiw, you can also hold both lights at the same time when you do the sweep, and go faster to spread the dots out on the PWM Tube 
you can also do both lights at the same time as a beamshot, which will show tint comparison and maybe even PWM at the same time (note there is no PWM on high, so prefer you not use high for PWM detection)

Im guessing you bought the Cool White LAD, not the Nichia version, true? (cant tell for sure unless both beams are in same photo)

I hope someone with a TIPCRI and a LADCRI will also chime in.


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## fulabeer (Dec 21, 2016)

No, i did buy the Nichia 219C version. It is very warm compared to the Tube. In a side by side, the LAD looks like a conventional tungsten bulb. When compared side to side, my eyes prefer the cleaner brighter white. Yet when in use, the more natural tone of the LAD makes everything more colourful.

Tube left (full power) - LAD Nichia 219C (full power) . Ignore the power wire! I'm istalling a drop down screen for the projector etc.




Tube (full power)




LAD (full power)


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## fulabeer (Dec 21, 2016)

Just for Jon!
Both lowest setting

Lad left - Tube right


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## fulabeer (Dec 21, 2016)

Red LED's mode. Weird "Saturn" like pattern that doesn't really change/diffuse the closer/further to the wall you get (pic approx 3ft from wall). The LED's don't level up with the LAD horizontal. One is slightly higher than the other. I suppose it doesn't matter for what they will be used for.


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## jon_slider (Dec 21, 2016)

fulabeer said:


> Tube left (full power) - LAD Nichia 219C (full power)
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Awesome!
The Manker LAD may be the first to offer a 90+CRI, 4000k, N219c in a light with NoPWM.

Next I will be curious to hear some feedback about the LAD switch. Does it seem firm enough, and recessed enough to avoid accidental activation? 

The TIP is notorious for false activation due to protruding buttons, requiring extra steps to put it in Lock Out. Then when the TIP is unlocked it comes on in last mode memory.

So lets examine the scenario where a college student wants to use a ~20 lumen mode to light their path with each light, what are the keystrokes required:
LAD, single click of single button turns on ~20 lumen, Hold single button turns it off
TIP, Hold 2 buttons at the same time to unlock and turn on in last mode used. Hold 2 buttons at the same time to turn off.


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## ToddM (Dec 21, 2016)

I have one arriving tomorrow. It's hard to argue with the Tube for under $10, and the TIP is great output for the size/price. Also while I never thought it would be an issue nor has it been with other keychain lights, I've had the TIP come on many times in pockets and don't want to bother with a lockout every time I use it when other lights don't need it. 

I like the size of the LAD, seems like it might be in between the Tube and TIP, it's amazing on a keychain how much even a small increase in size feels like more than it is, but I don't like having a huge keychain. I'm sure it gives up some runtime to the TIP, but I almost never use higher modes than medium on my TIP for any length of time, and it lasts longer on a charge than I expected. I also like that the LAD has a recessed switch and micro usb port cover. I do really like the battery status check on the TIP though, that's a great feature on short runtime lights because it's so easy to check if it needs charging.


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## fulabeer (Dec 21, 2016)

I know some people were concerned about the screws in the promo shots. My LAD has two which stick up very very slightly. If somebody hadn't mentioned it in a previous post, i would never have looked/noticed.
Therefore i completely happy leaving them as they are!


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## fulabeer (Dec 21, 2016)

ToddM
I've tried activating the LAD by pressing down the body (switch side down) on a glass table. No activation.
It has to be a positive press in the switch recess to get it to click on.
I will be sticking with my Tube for my keys. It is simply the perfect size, and being plastic doesn't suffer scratches by the keys.
The LAD was bought to be used with a neck lanyard. It has enough brightness to be used as a normal EDC, yet is very light and compact.


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## fulabeer (Dec 21, 2016)

Jon
The LAD needs a very positive/firm press to activate. I doubt there is any chance it being activated in a pocket unless something sticks/presses in the button recess.
The UI is different from my other lights. 
One brief press switches on in the lowest mode. More brief presses scroll through brighter modes then RED LED's. To turn off, a longer press is needed. If you press longer when it is off, it comes back on in the last mode used.
A double press in any mode activates the strobe modes. 
The "Dragons breath" seems to be a fade in and out of the blue battery charging LED on the power switch. (no white LED on etc)
Some people might use that mode to easily locate the torch at night. Not sure how long it lasts, but i would imagine it only uses a tiny bit of power.


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## fulabeer (Dec 21, 2016)

I seem to have used all the charge. Instead of switching off, it reverted to the red LED mode. Just charging again. Then i will run in high mode and see how long it lasts.

Edit. It stopped fading/blinking the blue button light after a few minutes of charging. There is no way it can be charged that quick?
I've decided to leave it on charge even though it isn't blinking. How long do people think a full charge should take?

Second edit. I'm now wondering if it shut down to red LED's due to heat. I was running it in high mode whilst pointing upwards to see how long it would last. It was warm but not hot.


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## jon_slider (Dec 21, 2016)

fulabeer said:


> I've tried activating the LAD by pressing down the body (switch side down) on a glass table. No activation.
> It has to be a positive press in the switch recess to get it to click on.
> ...
> The LAD needs a very positive/firm press to activate. I doubt there is any chance it being activated in a pocket unless something sticks/presses in the button recess.


thank you for all your contributions to this thread, even though you had created one before I noticed.. 

warmest holiday greetings to you and yours

summary of some of the pros and cons LAD (and TIP)

LAD NoPWM (TIP YesPWM)
LAD NoLockoutProvidedNorNeeded (TIP YesLockoutProvidedRequired)

So far, imho, the LAD IS a very viable alternative to the TIP

If I had to choose between a LAD or a TIP to give to my college age daughter, it would be the LAD because the single button UI is simpler, and does not require lockout. I also prefer to give her a light with NoPWM.

fwiw, the LAD weighs a couple of grams less than a Fenix E01 w alkaleaks, and I think the LAD USB charging feature is an advantage over AAA batteries, when gifting a light to a non-flashoholic



fulabeer said:


> Instead of switching off, it reverted to the red LED mode.
> ...
> I was running it in high mode


thanks for your ongoing investigations 
sounds like high mode may have a step down timer or temperature sensor.

If it lights Red only when trying to use other modes, that could also be a useful recharging reminder


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## KITROBASKIN (Dec 21, 2016)

Is there anyone with a Nitecore TIP that can see evidence of pulse width modulation with their own eyes, other than the one guy who made a rather unique photograph, and the one in a million person who is hyper-sensitive (does that person really exist?). Will there ever be anyone who has the integrity to do a double blind test, comparing a modern PWM light with a 'current controlled' flashlight? 

This labeling of the TIP as having PWM and the LAD not having PWM belies integrity. Has the guy with the special photography skill to detect 'PWM' in the TIP also tried the LAD? I tried to stay away from Slider's thread here, but the misinformation is an embarrassment to CPF. I miss the days when more members took the time to keep information more accurate here. 

The TIP is not for everyone and the Manker looks like a good alternative, as the MecArmy SGN 7 (?) may as well, yet different. I have been using thick winter motorcycle gloves (Belstaff) to use the TIP. Doubt that I could do that with the LAD, but I could be mistaken.

At night, some of us may use medium mode to go to bed, but want to start in low when awakened during the night. With the TIP, it is a simple matter of holding the off switch. With the LAD, it looks like one would have to cycle through high to get to red (please correct me if I am wrong, but it really needs to be someone who actually has a LAD, and not someone reading about it on the web)

Can the LAD tailstand? Does it feel kind of slippery in-hand? How likely will it actually be put on a keychain? Once again, let's hear from actual owners.


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## fulabeer (Dec 21, 2016)

KITROBASKIN said:


> At night, some of us may use medium mode to go to bed, but want to start in low when awakened during the night. With the TIP, it is a simple matter of holding the off switch. With the LAD, it looks like one would have to cycle through high to get to red (please correct me if I am wrong, but it really needs to be someone who actually has a LAD, and not someone reading about it on the web)
> 
> Can the LAD tailstand? Does it feel kind of slippery in-hand? How likely will it actually be put on a keychain? Once again, let's hear from actual owners.



I'm not sure if i'm in the middle of a mini battle of some sort. As i keep reading some bizarre reasons (at least to me) why people love or hate certain torches. So i will answer the questions to the best of my knowledge.

You can use medium mode to go to bed. You would then have to flick twice to go to red LED (meaning you briefly have high mode, but you can put your finger over the white LED). Long press to switch off. When awakened during the night, just long press to go to red mode. I'm not sure what is wrong using the white low LED mode. It isn't that bright any way. That way you can turn the torch off in what ever mode you want and brief single press it back on to low mode.
The LAD does not tail stand.
It is smooth, but not slippery.
It is designed to go on a key chain, but it is optional.
I doubt you can activate it wearing thick gloves. However, you are free to remove a glove switch on, the put the glove back on!


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## jon_slider (Dec 22, 2016)

fulabeer said:


> the white low LED mode. ... you can turn the torch off in what ever mode you want and brief single press it back on to low mode.



The LAD Low mode you are referring to is equivalent to what the TIP calls Medium mode, they are ~20 lumens. 

I call the LAD a medium first mode sequence, which I think is useful for an inexperienced flashlight user crossing a parking lot in the dark, while illuminating, curbs, puddles and potholes.

The Low on the TIP is equivalent to the Red mode on the LAD, ~1 lumen. These will not get you across a parking lot very well, but they can be much more pleasant when waking up in full darkness, and used for dodging toys or pets on the way to the bathroom, without waking others up. 

Some flashaholics value a light that starts at a 1 lumen or lower level. I tend to fall in the "1 lumen low mode first" preference group, but its not what I would give to a naive user, I would give them a "20 lumen Medium first".

regarding the ~20 lumen "Low" (or "Medium") modes on 
LAD (and TIP)
LAD has direct access to Medium (TIP has no direct access to Medium)
LAD will memorize Medium (TIP will also memorize Medium)
LAD has a recessed button and no lockout feature needed or provided (TIP has protruding buttons that require using the provided lockout feature)

imo the LAD is a Simple yet Sophisticated entry level light that could be a useful gift to a non-flashaholic
The TIP has more buttons and more features, including lockout, battery meter, and tailstanding. 

Imo the TIP might be more likely to appeal to a flashaholic… , any moment now, I hope one will appear that owns Both the LAD and the TIP, so we can see some beam color comparisons .. I believe the latest TIPs are cooler at 5000k, than the LADs 4000k. Something for everyone..


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## fulabeer (Dec 22, 2016)

Hi Jon. You have hit the nail on the head. 1 Lumen mode is for flashaholics only. Nobody else on the planet would think 20 lumens is unpleasant or could wake anybody else up!

I was lead to believe the main reason for 1 lumen mode was to extend the battery life as long as possible in an emergency situation. Now some people will pass up on this because it doesn't have this one feature.
Honestly, as a relative newbie, some of the requirements on here have no bearing on the real world. People seem to make up special requirements that if they were honest with themselves would rarely be needed. This torch isn't aimed at search and rescue, cave exploration, or deep sea diving. It is a small, easy to carry, easy to recharge light. Most will carry it on their keys, and use it from time to time when the haven't got a regular torch with them.
PWM isn't noticed by the vast majority, and even is it is detected, won't cause headaches or brain damage. Most plasma TV's use it without the masses complaining etc. Saying that, if it can be made without using PWM, then why not.
Colour tint also isn't a massive problem. Use of a warm tint can help colours stand out more, but at the cost of brightness. I only chose the Nichia, as i wanted to see what difference that kind of tint makes.
If you want to use the torch for photography, surely there are dedicated lights out there for this. If i ordered again, i would just go for the brightest LED as i don't need colour fidelity on my odd use with this kind of torch etc.

It's a good torch at the right price, with the right features. The same can said about the tip.


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## Connor (Dec 22, 2016)

KITROBASKIN said:


> Is there anyone with a Nitecore TIP that can see evidence of pulse width modulation with their own eyes



Just spent a minute waving my TIP on low in front of my face.  No PWM visible. I consider myself to be quite sensitive in regards to PWM.


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## KITROBASKIN (Dec 22, 2016)

One would think that with a CPF name like fulabeer, that at least one nightly trip to the loo would be in order. That red on the LAD should be just the ticket (flashaholic or not). Thanks for providing actual user perspective.

Was hoping the LAD could tailstand, even if it was tilted. Can it side stand? 

Seems like the LAD could withstand puppy-chomping better than the TIP.

Those who wanted a clip on the TIP can take a look at that MecArmy SGN7, although it is larger like the Surefire Sidekick. Don't have either of those myself.

Let us consider another scenario: A person is navigating outdoors on medium but sees something a ways-off and wants to go to the brightest setting. It looks like the LAD requires one click to get to high. The TIP is a single brief hold. 
Now the person wants to get back to the previous setting. Does the LAD have to be clicked three times, going through red then low then to medium? The TIP is a quick double click on the mode button. 
Not having the LAD, it's hard to confirm the difference.


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## iamlucky13 (Dec 22, 2016)

fulabeer said:


> Hi Jon. You have hit the nail on the head. 1 Lumen mode is for flashaholics only. Nobody else on the planet would think 20 lumens is unpleasant or could wake anybody else up!



I'd contend it's more a matter that few people have experienced the utility of sub-lumen modes in specific situations. Certainly it's a specialized need that most are fine without, and I won't exclude lights automatically that don't include it, but now that I've experienced it, I definitely want at least a couple lights around the house and with my camping gear with ultra-low modes.

For what it's worth, I don't really consider myself a flash-a-holic, and definitely wasn't when I bought my first light with a moonlight mode, but it didn't take long before I was using moonlight regularly. And yes, I have waken my wife with a 10 lumen light before.

As I said, it's not a must have for all lights. I personally wouldn't exclude the LAD for not having moonlight, especially if I decided I wanted a rugged keychain light. The LAD's case looks very sturdy.


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## fulabeer (Dec 22, 2016)

Just to add, it does tail stand "at an angle. It also stands on it's side. However, if used with a key ring, i doubt it would tail stand very well.


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## jon_slider (Dec 22, 2016)

iamlucky13 said:


> I personally wouldn't exclude the LAD for not having moonlight


Both LAD and TIP have a 1 lumen mode, the LAD does it with RED LEDs instead of the Nichia.
imo, RED is actually better for preserving night vision. otoh, the TIP will render color better at the 1 lumen level.

fwiw, the TIP's PWM causes interference in beamshot photos:





Even if most people dont "notice" PWM in use, it is still strobing your brain. Not all things that are less than optimal for our health are "noticeable", for example Carbon Monoxide will kill you, but you cant see that either. The health effects of PWM are not part of my focus here, everyone can make their own decision about whether they want to use a light with PWM or Constant Current. Im just documenting that the TIP uses PWM and afaict so far the LAD does not have that "feature" or "flaw", depending on point of view. Since I use my lights to take photos, I prefer to avoid the interference caused by PWM. YMMV


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## fulabeer (Dec 22, 2016)

Is it a cost issue why some use PWM when the LAD doesn't appear to use it?
Or is it a battery saving feature?
I have to agree that if there is no real need to use PWM, then they shouldn't use it.
Newer cars using PWM in rear tail lights are a real hazard. As you scan your eyes across the road, the cars rear end can appear to skip left or right etc. Very distracting.


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## Connor (Dec 22, 2016)

jon_slider said:


> Even if most people dont "notice" PWM in use, it is still strobing your brain. Not all things that are less than optimal for our health are "noticeable", for example Carbon Monoxide will kill you, but you cant see that either. The health effects of PWM are not part of my focus here, everyone can make their own decision about whether they want to use a light with PWM or Constant Current. Im just documenting that the TIP uses PWM and afaict so far the LAD does not have that "feature" or "flaw", depending on point of view. Since I use my lights to take photos, I prefer to avoid the interference caused by PWM. YMMV



If the strobing frequency is beyond the temporal resolution of the receptors you don't see it and it doesn't matter either. You physically cannot perceive it. 
With movements of the light source and its reflections it gets a little more complicated but there is a critical frequency where it doesn't matter anymore. 

> http://webvision.med.utah.edu/book/part-viii-gabac-receptors/temporal-resolution/


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## jon_slider (Dec 22, 2016)

Lets not drift too far offtopic arguing about the theoretical pros and cons of PWM. For those interested in learning more about PWM theory, or discussing whether it matters to you, please go to the sticky about PWM. 

I only mention PWM specifically in relation to the Topic of this Thread. The LAD does not and the TIP does, use PWM. The LAD does not and the TIP does, put scan lines in a beamshot. No need to argue here about the merits of PWM, or whether PWM matters to you or not, Im only pointing out whether it is present or absent.

If you want a similar light with NoPWM, then the LAD IS an Alternative to the TIP.

I do hope someone with both a LAD and a TIP will share side by side photos of the beam colors, and if you want to test both lights for PWM with an Oscilloscope, Camera, or by waving, please share photos of your test results.


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## LeanBurn (Dec 22, 2016)

Wow...compared to the TIP the LAD looks almost purple in that pic.


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## Streamer (Dec 22, 2016)

LOL..the _armchair expounded offerings _contributed thus far are exceeded only by the ensuing popcorn popping sessions..  Here here...carry on ...:goodjob:


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## Streamer (Dec 22, 2016)

LeanBurn said:


> Wow...compared to the TIP the LAD looks almost purple in that pic.



Can't be the LAD. Lad doesn't have two such "horns" at the bezel


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## wacbzz (Dec 22, 2016)

Just gonna put this right here. It's a photo of the TIP CRI V2 in low mode on the right next to my Fenix LD02 on the left that I *just* took with my iPhone...no reposting of older, outdated, older version photos here...







No visible PWM. At all. I also have the same photo with my TIP CRI turned on in medium, high, and "turbo" if some folks need to see those as well. 

Also, ever since my purchase a bit ago, the light has resided during working hours in a pair of dress pants with a small Buck knife. It has *never* turned on by itself and it certainly isn't "notorious" for "false activation." I don't use the lockout mode because it simply doesn't need to be put in lockout mode. Given the actual number of reports of such scandalousness here (ie, the ultra-small sample size of those "notoriously false activation's"), it would be downright silly of me - or anyone - to have not purchased such a light based on that info.

As such, I see zero reason nor need to purchase the LAD...


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## superedge88 (Dec 22, 2016)

This was a good thread until it got derailed...


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## Streamer (Dec 22, 2016)

_*You're a Sly one Mr. Grinch... *_


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## KITROBASKIN (Dec 22, 2016)

Aspiring politicians know that you can convince people they will turn horses into hairpins if you keep saying the same deceit over and over:

This thread is supposedly a comparison. The continued claim that the LAD is without PWM smacks of sorcery. Slider does not know and no one yet, as far as I can tell has proven it one way or another. 

Another embarrassment is not divulging the special circumstances that were created to make that 'one of a kind' photo that condemns the TIP to PWM purgatory. I have no assurance that the photo is genuine. Has anyone else replicated this brain strobe?

Internet tempest in a teapot down the rabbit hole


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## fulabeer (Dec 22, 2016)

Just in case anybody missed it, my photos are the LAD with the "Tube" not the Tip. Also, the tube appears very blue compared to the LAD in the photos. It doesn't look that blue in person, so i assume my iPhone colour balances it as the LAD is very warm etc.


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## ToddM (Dec 22, 2016)

Arrived today, it's not a bad little light. A few nitpicks, some are personal of course, and some comparisons to the TIP. 

1) The red LED's have to be the worst I've seen in a long time, the are a pretty tight beam with very distinct ringed artifacts. I can't see them being useful for anything close up, certainly not reading or viewing instrumentation etc., but also are not bright enough or wide beamed enough for any type of navigation. Thankfully I really have no need, or concern for them, at worst they are simply an annoyance in the brightness settings to skip past. If they were more of a smooth flood beam they would absolutely have utility, but as they are, worthless. 

2) the "shortness" of the light makes it a little awkward in the hand if it's not on a set of keys etc. that naturally extend the handle. This is one light where I think if they had made the body 1/2" longer they could have probably doubled the battery capacity, and it would feel better in the hand, but that's a trade off because it would be more bulky on a keyring and I feel like with keyring lights size feels bigger than specs would suggest. It's wider than the TIP, and about the same thickness, but feels quite a bit smaller in the hand, that's a good thing for a keychain light. 

3) It has an illuminated switch for charging, that goes from flashing blue to solid blue when charged. I'd rather see it just turn off when fully charged. On that note since they go to the trouble of a "Dragon Breath" mode for locating it, but didn't include a battery charge indicator, or low battery warning is unfortunate. 

3) The 23 lumen low mode is too bright for up close work, reading etc. for example reading the manual in a dim room. I have a garage without power, and the low mode on the LAD is annoying bright trying to find the keyhole in a white door close up. The TIP and it's 1 lumen mode is perfect for these tasks. I don't see myself using high very much, mostly low/medium, the same was true of the TIP. So while the TIP in turbo crushes the LAD in high, that's not a big deal to me personally.

4) TIP is a wider beam with more spill, The TIP is a nicer beam shape for lighting up a room, stairwell, or a wide area while walking etc. The LAD needs to be moved around more and pointed where you want it. A good example is stairs, the TIP you just point up/down stairs and it's fine, the LAD needs to be moved where you want the light. For me a keychain light is 95% of the time used for up close work, or walking somewhere dark where I didn't pack a bigger light for. For that I'd rather have a wider beam, but this is personal preference and use driven as well.

5) I like the fact the LAD has a micro usb port cover, but it appears that the cover is not going to stay in place. Unfortunately that's the case with most of these rubber port covers, usually it's not long before they no longer stay put, though the one on the Tube is really good.

6) The TIP is the only light I've had come on repeatedly in my jacket or pants pockets, it's done so several times over the last few weeks. I'm sure my old photon's were activated now and then with the momentary switch but never stayed on. I was out the other night and someone asked me if my phone flashlight was on in my pants pocket, nope it was the TIP on my keys. Other times I've noticed a warm leg, or pulled out my keys from my jacket pocket or work bag and the light was already on. I was skeptical it would be a problem before I bought it, there's even a post somewhere here of me saying that exact thing, but it has turned out to be a real issue. I don't feel I should have to use a lockout since no other pocket/keychain light I've owned has suffered from the same problem. 

My TIP has been on my keys for about a month now, so I'm going to swap out the LAD and see how it goes. I suspect I'm going to like the size and lack of inadvertent activation with the LAD, but the versatility of the option of a much higher and lower modes, and battery charge indicator on the TIP. It will be interesting in a month to see which one I actually prefer.


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## KITROBASKIN (Dec 22, 2016)

ToddM: the real deal
And a member here longer than the owner


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## fulabeer (Dec 23, 2016)

KITROBASKIN said:


> ToddM: the real deal
> And a member here longer than the owner



I'm out of this thread. Once a thread becomes tribal, there is no point continuing...


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## KITROBASKIN (Dec 23, 2016)

Hopefully fulabeer will continue making valid contributions based on actual experiences. I apologize if my appreciation for actual user experiences like Toddm's sounded like taking sides. If you read his post fully, you will notice he had criticisms of both flashlights, as well as praise. This non-tribal response is what makes CPF so great. I had to return two TIPs and still harbor questions about Sysmax Industries (Nitecore, the maker). I have always contended that the TIP is not for everyone and the LAD has potential (affirmed by posts from fulabeer as well).

One trait that these small, powerful flashlights all seem to share is a short runtime when used in a more expansive role; in effect replacing heavily used everyday carry flashlights. If use requires substantial power, either long runtime or more light or both, then another flashlight with more battery is warranted. These handy flashlights can't do it all, whether by having another flashlight or maybe a powerbank. Can the LAD be used while charging, like the TIP?


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## Streamer (Dec 23, 2016)

So, ya can't get a fair trial in cpfville. To the OP, a change of venue is in order. 
Don't *B*e *L*ate my *F*riend


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## nbp (Dec 23, 2016)

KITROBASKIN said:


> ToddM: the real deal
> And a member here longer than the owner



I don't know what this is supposed to mean either, but let's keep this thread respectful. I don't understand why people get so heated over these cheap little lights like the Tip and LAD but it needs to stay respectful, whether you like the light or not.


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## bansuri (Dec 24, 2016)

I certainly don't need another light, but Amazon made it too easy.
Got a red one on the way. I may replace the Straw-Hats with some warmish 5mm or UV, or take steel wool to the installed emitters to smooth out the beam. 
If the screws protrude I'll countersink the front plate a little.
As a keychain only light the lack of 1 lumen shouldn't be a problem, you usually just need some light.
Have any of the early adopters tried it directly to a populated key ring? By that I mean clipped on directly to the main split-ring that your keys are on.
Glad that it doesn't take you right to the StrawHat haypile before the center emitter. 
Thanks for all the info!


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## jon_slider (Dec 24, 2016)

fulabeer said:


> Red LED's mode. Weird "Saturn" like pattern that doesn't really change/diffuse the closer/further to the wall you get (pic approx 3ft from wall). The LED's don't level up with the LAD horizontal. One is slightly higher than the other. I suppose it doesn't matter for what they will be used for.


Straw Hat is supposed to mean Wide Angle beam (flood).. sure does not look like that though...



bansuri said:


> I may replace the Straw-Hats


I look forward to learning more if you compare a "normal beam" LED to the ones in the LAD


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## Still_Of_The_Night (Dec 25, 2016)

ToddM said:


> Arrived today, it's not a bad little light. A few nitpicks, some are personal of course, and some comparisons to the TIP.
> 
> 1) The red LED's have to be the worst I've seen in a long time, the are a pretty tight beam with very distinct ringed artifacts. I can't see them being useful for anything close up, certainly not reading or viewing instrumentation etc., but also are not bright enough or wide beamed enough for any type of navigation. Thankfully I really have no need, or concern for them, at worst they are simply an annoyance in the brightness settings to skip past. If they were more of a smooth flood beam they would absolutely have utility, but as they are, worthless.
> 
> ...



Thanks for your useful comparison of the two lights. I was just wondering if you own both in cool white or CRI versions? 
I'm surprised to read that you thought that the TIP was significantly brighter than the LAD when both were on their highest setting. I know it's often best to take manufacturers specs with a pinch of salt but the stated specs don't seem that far apart from the two at their highest to notice such a very drastic difference. Though from what i understand the different optics used and dissipation of light/beam pattern could well make a difference in perception as well as tint/colour temperature. Also, can't remember if i'm just forgetting something that has already been mentioned, but does the LAD feature a step down after 30 seconds on its highest mode like the TIP does on turbo? 
I look forward to hearing your experiences after carrying the LAD for a little while regarding accidental pocket activation as it would seem you would be a good candidate to test it if you experienced the issue with the TIP.


Happy Holidays


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## Pellidon (Dec 25, 2016)

I received my red LAD Saturday and have had some time to get aquatinted with it. It seems pretty close to my v1 Tip in brightness. A little brighter to my eye against the Tip on high, about equal to the Tip on turbo maybe. The red mode seems more like old red LEDs than a straw hat beam. My Fenix UC01 seems more like a straw hat diffuse broad floody beam if I read it correctly. 

The switch on mine is stiff so I don't think it will turn on in my pocket. 

So far I like it. If it came in green, I'd call it Gumby. And does the image on the switch boot remind anyone else of Alf

I have the other led, not the 219 version.


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## jon_slider (Dec 25, 2016)

Still_Of_The_Night said:


> ...I'm surprised to read that you thought that the TIP was significantly brighter than the LAD when both were on their highest setting.
> ...
> I look forward to hearing your experiences after carrying the LAD for a little while regarding accidental pocket activation...you experienced the issue with the TIP.


Here is a simple way to compare the brightness of two lights




here is a comparison of those same two lights using a light meter













I hope someone who owns both a LAD and a TIP will post some side by side beamshots, that would give us a general ideal of the comparative brightness, and also Tint of the N219c and N219b in those lights. Maybe someone with both a LAD and a TIP, And a light meter, can also show the relative measurements of the two lights. (more about how I "calibrated" the light meter to read lumens without a conversion factor here.)


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## wings400 (Dec 25, 2016)

It looks ideal for my jeans 5th pocket..


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## ToddM (Dec 27, 2016)

Still_Of_The_Night said:


> Thanks for your useful comparison of the two lights. I was just wondering if you own both in cool white or CRI versions?
> I'm surprised to read that you thought that the TIP was significantly brighter than the LAD when both were on their highest setting. I know it's often best to take manufacturers specs with a pinch of salt but the stated specs don't seem that far apart from the two at their highest to notice such a very drastic difference. Though from what i understand the different optics used and dissipation of light/beam pattern could well make a difference in perception as well as tint/colour temperature. Also, can't remember if i'm just forgetting something that has already been mentioned, but does the LAD feature a step down after 30 seconds on its highest mode like the TIP does on turbo?
> I look forward to hearing your experiences after carrying the LAD for a little while regarding accidental pocket activation as it would seem you would be a good candidate to test it if you experienced the issue with the TIP.
> 
> ...



Both of mine are the cool white versions. 

I don't have a light meter so my impression of brightness is far from scientific. I just looked at them again and I think part of it might be the much wider beam of the TIP appears to light up a room better, but the LAD with it's more narrow beam appears to have slightly more peak brightness with both lights on their highest setting. I'm actually tempted to put some diffusing film on the LAD but want to carry it awhile without messing with it. I haven't done a direct comparison with them outside but it would not surprise me if the LAD throws farther. 

So far no inadvertent activations with the LAD so far, as stiff and recessed as the switch is I doubt it will ever be an issue, but under the right circumstances just about any switch can be hit accidentally.


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## bansuri (Dec 29, 2016)

When I received mine yesterday I plugged it in to see if it needed a charge, the blue light pulsed for a couple seconds and then went steady. According to my manual that means it's fully charged.
I used it a bunch last night and some at work today and went to charge it to see if it acted any differently, same thing, couple of pulses then steady. 
I hooded up a handy USB voltage and current monitor to see what was going on. 
When I plugged it in initially it showed .110A, over a few hours it slowly reduced to .030A. It's been a little more than 3 hours and it's sitting at .030A with the blue light solid.
I'll email Manker and see if they have any info.


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## jon_slider (Dec 29, 2016)

ToddM said:


> the much wider beam of the TIP appears to light up a room better
> ...
> So far no inadvertent activations with the LAD


great feedback, thanks for sharing your observations
No one yet has posted beamshots comparing the two
Id say the TIP has a Lot going for it in terms of a lower low, and wide beam
what the TIP bears improving, for me, is the PWM, and protruding buttons.. IM not a fan of needing to carry locked out
it sounds like the LAD does not have a problem with accidental activation.

have you found the red light on the LAD useable as a wake up to pee light? (aka nightstand light)


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## bansuri (Dec 29, 2016)

Got a quick response from Manker, they said it's normal. :/
Their version of normal seems to differ from the manual. 
I'll run the light down and see if it acts differently when charging from a lower voltage. The blue light never did go out, which is no big deal, but would be nice if it stopped charging completely at some point.


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## wacbzz (Dec 29, 2016)

I surely *must *be missing something here...



jon_slider said:


> ...what the TIP bears improving, for me, is the PWM, and protruding buttons. IM not a fan of needing to carry locked out...it sounds like the LAD does not have a problem with accidental activation.



For two large threads now, you have been carrying on some personal crusade of sorts against the Nitecore TIP; your posts are so numerous against its supposed defects that one doesn't have to quote your writings - there are on almost every page of either thread. 

You have constantly reposted photos of older versions of the TIP that show it using PWM _despite the fact that members here - including myself - have posted photos of the new V2 that show nothing of the sort. You _continue to call for "improvements" that apparently have already been made. You're not a "fan of needing to carry locked out" _despite the small sample size of people that have reported such trouble with activations_. I personally wrote of my experience with carrying the light every work day in dress pants with a small Buck knife in the same pocket with _zero _accidental activations, yet you gloss over these reports to seemingly satisfy your own personal agenda about this light.

Why?

And correct me if I'm wrong, but apparently, you don't even own - nor have ever owned - a TIP. :ironic: I seriously just don't get it. Embarrassingly enough, I now fully understand what my own posts did in the HDS threads so long ago...


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## Streamer (Dec 29, 2016)

wacbzz said:


> I surely *must *be missing something here...



Obviously


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## wacbzz (Dec 29, 2016)

Streamer said:


> Obviously



Then please do, enlighten...me and everyone else not on the crusade...


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## LightObsession (Dec 29, 2016)

I asked Battery Junction if their TIP CRI were the newer version of the firmware that doesn't have the issue of battery drainage when locked out and they said that

the TIP CRI Never Had the Battery Drainage During Lockout Like the Standard Version.

That relieves my hesitation to buy the CRI version. I really like the form and function of the Winter Edition that I received a couple days ago, but would like the CRI version, as well.


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## ToddM (Dec 29, 2016)

jon_slider said:


> great feedback, thanks for sharing your observations
> No one yet has posted beamshots comparing the two
> Id say the TIP has a Lot going for it in terms of a lower low, and wide beam
> what the TIP bears improving, for me, is the PWM, and protruding buttons.. IM not a fan of needing to carry locked out
> ...



I'll take some very unscientific beam shots this evening of the two on walls, and stairs to and try to give some comparison. To me comparing them on a wall there's a difference but where you really notice it is walking around say a house in the dark, the TIP just does a much better job of illuminating more area, with the LAD I find myself "pointing" it where I want light, with the TIP there's just enough light everywhere that I don't think about "pointing it at X" very often. 

I've never had problems with a light activating before in my pocket, except with a momentary switch, and then I probably never noticed and it was likely only for a few seconds. With the TIP I've had several cases of that happening including "I think your phone flashlight is on in your pocket" and "Is that a flashlight in your pocket or are you just happy to see me?" What bothers me most about it is simply the unknown amount of battery life loss when it happens. Obviously some users are not having that issue at all, others are. Mine was a pretty early V1 sample so perhaps they have increased the button tension on later revisions. 

I haven't tried the red LED's for dark navigation much with low light adjusted eyes, I'm sure it would be better than nothing, but the beam is so tight and full of artifacts it would be about my last choice of lights I have around, but perhaps on travel it would be acceptable. I'm not sure I can get any pics that would help that but I'll see what I can come up with. I don't think I have much with red led's to compare it too, perhaps an old petzl with the red flip down filter and maybe another headlamp that has a red led option. I'd actually consider frosting the red LED's if i could think of a good way to do it. I could probably use some very fine sand paper or rubbing compound on them.


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## KiwiMark (Dec 29, 2016)

jon_slider said:


> I agree the LAD battery is much smaller, however it has better performance specs overall. Of course I do not believe runtime specs, until there are independent tests.. I also dont believe Lumen specs, some companies report LED Lumens instead of ANSII, and in both cases can be inaccurate.
> 
> LAD specs:
> High: 300 lumens, 0.5 hour
> ...



Sounds too good to be true, unless of course Manker has managed to achieve MUCH higher efficiency than Nitecore.
I agree that we need to see some independent tests.


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## KiwiMark (Dec 29, 2016)

I have just finished reading though the whole thread and it has been quite interesting. I've thought about buying a Tip CRI, I'm still considering the idea.
The Manker LAD is certainly an interesting option, but unfortunately there is a deal breaker for me - I want 1 lumen (or less) in white and those red LEDs just put me off the light.

Currently on my keyring I'm using an Astrolux A01 with Nichia 219B high CRI LED - this works pretty well.
It has a warm white tint and high CRI.
I bought 3 of these for under $8 each, great value!
It comes on in firefly mode (no memory) and provides enough light for me to navigate through the house and into the garage at 3am (that is when I leave for work) without disturbing others.
Overall I'm very happy with this light.

The reason I'm looking at the Tip and similar:
Built in Li-Ion battery with more capacity.
USB charging.
Impressive output on high.
But is it worth the price?

If Manker did a new version of the LAD without the red LEDs and with 1 lumen on the Nichia then I'd seriously consider this light.


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## jon_slider (Dec 29, 2016)

KiwiMark said:


> Sounds too good to be true, unless of course Manker has managed to achieve MUCH higher efficiency than Nitecore.


i agree we need verification of specs.. I dont put full faith in the accuracy of posted values, its just a starting point for comparison




KiwiMark said:


> Currently on my keyring I'm using an Astrolux A01 with Nichia 219B
> ...
> It comes on in firefly mode (no memory) and provides enough light for me to navigate through the house and into the garage at 3am (that is when I leave for work) without disturbing others.



the Astrolux has a much lower low than the TIP or LAD, though I think you would be an ideal candidate to test the Red mode on the LAD to see how well it works in your application.

anyway, here are the modes to compare
the Astrolux w Nichia mode specs are 0.14-7-102 lumens
LAD w Nichia is (my estimate) 0.7-17-63-220
TIP 240 spec is 1-22-95-240

whether a light is worth the price is personal choice, I dont consider the LAD or TIP expensive

you did get a very good price on your Astrolux, fwiw, they are no longer being made with the same Manker driver, though there are still some originals around, even in copper.. there is also a commemorative model out, though I suspect it suffers from the new driver with next mode memory, not sure.. but Astrolux is a topic for another thread

between the TIP and the LAD, if I was accustomed to using 0.14 lumens, imho, the red LAD would be less of a jump in brightness than the white TIP 1 lumen mode. Of course you can always just fist the light to a narrow shaft of light..

also, since you are actually trying NOT to illuminate a whole room, where others are sleeping, the wider beam of the TIP might be a disadvantage compared to the red mode on the LAD…. though I agree the red leds are offputting, they might suprise someone that appreciates sublumen levels.. fwiw, I dont think youre getting a lot of color recognition at 0.14 lumens on the Astrolux, you may actually find the red option soothing 

fwiw other AAA lights with <1 lumen lows include the Thrunite AAA with .04 lumen low (not available with Nichia though), and the L08 (personal favorite) w a 0.09 low and N219b


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## ToddM (Dec 29, 2016)

So here's my very unscientific attempt at a comparison of the beam size, I didn't put them on tripods and make sure they were the exact same height/angle etc. Photo of both pointing at a blank wall wasn't great but I included it anyway, so you'll have to take my word for it that the rest are representative, if you don't, I don't care  It's not meant to be a brightness comparison but they were both off a new charge the TIP on high (not turbo) and the LAD on medium. They are simply phone pics, no attempt made to hold shutter/aperture the same etc. I do think subjectively they do a pretty good job of showing what my eyes saw as far as beam size and brightness, in that the LAD seems a bit brighter in it's "hot spot" but the TIP illuminates more area. The door shot does show a noticeable purple ring on the LAD that is there, but I never notice it in normal use. I didn't do any lower level beam shots but my TIP gets a pretty good green shift on the lower settings until high/turbo.

Fig 1 - both lights on a stool about 18" from a wall, LAD on the left, TIP on the right. 






Fig 2 & 3 - both lights pointing up a set of stairs, about 6' from the start of the stairs, I tried to put the bottom of the bright part of the beam at the bottom of the stairs, LAD on the left, TIP on the right








Fig 4 & 5 - both lights pointing at a door, about 3.5-4' from the door. LAD on left, TIP on right








Figure 6 - Red LED from the same door as above but probably 6-7' away, blurry unfortunately, there is a tiny bit more spill, but almost none outside of the ringed "spot" area as the photo tends to show. If you were pointing it on the floor a few feet in front of you walking you basically could see nothing but what's in that small circle of red rings. While better than no light, I would not want to use it for walking around the house at night, especially an unfamiliar one such as on travel etc. unless it was all I had. I'd use the low or medium mode and ceiling bounce it instead.


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## wacbzz (Dec 29, 2016)

Thanks ToddM for yet another photo showing the TIP with no visible PWM. Perhaps now the constant reposting of old information can finally be put to rest.


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## KiwiMark (Dec 29, 2016)

jon_slider said:


> the Astrolux has a much lower low than the TIP or LAD, though I think you would be an ideal candidate to test the Red mode on the LAD to see how well it works in your application.
> 
> anyway, here are the modes to compare
> the Astrolux w Nichia mode specs are 0.14-7-102 lumens
> ...



I like the low of my Astrolux but could probably live with any light 1 lumen or less, 20 lumens on low would be way too much.

I'd agree with the price not being high, if a light would be much better for my purposes than my Astrolux then I'd think little of paying twice what the Tip costs. My Acebeam EC60vn cost US$132 + shipping and my dearest light cost more than 4x that much.

I don't mind a wide floody beam, my main requirement is that it doesn't throw out a lot of light. But I just wont use a red LED, I have a red LED on my Nitecore MT10A and I always choose to use the white LED on low in preference to it. From Todd's pictures it looks like the red LEDs on the LAD are much worse than on my MT10A.

Unfortunately I had to take my L08 off my keyring (it is in the pocket of my motorcycle jacket) because the holes for a split ring are quite close to the edge and I had to stop using mine because it looked like it would wear through completely and I would lose the light off my key ring. It is a really nice light though.


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## jon_slider (Dec 29, 2016)

bansuri said:


> When I plugged it in initially it showed .110A, over a few hours it slowly reduced to .030A. It's been a little more than 3 hours and it's sitting at .030A with the blue light solid.


sounds like when it is done charging it uses .030A to keep the blue light lit constantly, consider that a reminder to unplug 




ToddM said:


> TIP on high (not turbo) and the LAD on medium….
> 
> Fig 1 - both lights on a stool about 18" from a wall, LAD on the left, TIP on the right.
> 
> ...


Thank You! 
I note you mentioned earlier that your LAD and TIP are both cool white, 
In your photos, I believe the LAD is on its 86 lumen mode, and tip is on its 150 lumen mode. (low medium high terms are not used consistently by both models)
Unfortunately, none of the modes on the two lights are very close to each other.. seems the TIP is brighter on every mode.

the TIP beam does look 2x wider (but double brightness can also double the beam width)

Those overlapping red led on the LAD are Very narrow beam, and sadly misaligned.. 
Just to drive the point home about how narrow the red beam is:
I would be curious to see a photo of the TIP 1 lumen mode, aimed at the doorknob at the same distance from the door as the red LED

btw, though it usually takes extreme closeups, and skill, to capture PWM in a photo, I noticed some faint banding when I enlarged your photo of the two beams.








KiwiMark said:


> From Todd's pictures it looks like the red LEDs on the LAD are much worse than on my MT10A.


I agree it does not look pretty, nor floody

Also agree the keyring connection point on the L08 is problematic.. maybe drill a new hole?


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## LightObsession (Dec 29, 2016)

PSA: The TIP CRI is on sale at:

Battery Junction - $26.12 for a couple more days - no code needed.

Gearbest - $22.95 using their CPF code in the Dealer's section of CPF.

I just ordered 2 from Battery Junction, because they had a lower price on the Nitecore T360, so the total cost from either vendor came out about even.


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## ToddM (Dec 29, 2016)

jon_slider said:


> sounds like when it is done charging it uses .030A to keep the blue light lit constantly, consider that a reminder to unplug
> 
> 
> Just to drive the point home about how narrow the red beam is:
> I would be curious to see a photo of the TIP 1 lumen mode, aimed at the doorknob at the same distance from the door as the red LED



That's easy enough, It's hard to tell in the picture but the TIP 1 lumen beam is actually wider than the whole door frame at this distance, I'd say pretty much the same spot as the other photos about 6-7' from the door. You can see the edge of the beam just hitting the closer wall on the right side of the picture frame. I'd say it's conservatively twice as wide, and given the choice I would much rather find my way around a house with the 1 lumen TIP in the dark. The same is true for any close up work, reading etc. I'd gladly give up the red LED's for a 1 lumen moonlight mode, but that's me. If the red LED's were a wider smooth flood I'd probably feel the opposite. 

The banding could be a result of the downsize and extra compression I did in photoshop for web hosting. I don't see that effect on the full size original picture from the phone, but I absolutely see it in smaller version posted above when enlarged 300%.


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## jon_slider (Dec 29, 2016)

ToddM said:


> I'd gladly give up the red LED's for a 1 lumen moonlight mode...


wow, thanks
I agree the wide beam 1 lumen low of the TIP seems much more practical


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## KiwiMark (Dec 29, 2016)

LightObsession said:


> PSA: The TIP CRI is on sale at:
> 
> Gearbest - $22.95 using their CPF code in the Dealer's section of CPF.



Oh geez, why did you have to post that?
Now I have a Tip CRI on the way from Gearbest.
I already have 2 lights on the way from China and am considering 2 other lights, pretty soon I wont be able to move for all the lights I have.


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## Manker (Dec 29, 2016)

bansuri said:


> When I received mine yesterday I plugged it in to see if it needed a charge, the blue light pulsed for a couple seconds and then went steady. According to my manual that means it's fully charged.
> I used it a bunch last night and some at work today and went to charge it to see if it acted any differently, same thing, couple of pulses then steady.
> I hooded up a handy USB voltage and current monitor to see what was going on.
> When I plugged it in initially it showed .110A, over a few hours it slowly reduced to .030A. It's been a little more than 3 hours and it's sitting at .030A with the blue light solid.
> I'll email Manker and see if they have any info.



Don't worry about it, it is normal.
The LAD has enough power when you received it so it is fast to get 90% charge then the button change to constant blue.
The first 90% charging current is 110A fast charge, the last 10% slow charge is .030A and this is for over charge protection.
LAD is desinged like this just like quality chargers.


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## jon_slider (Dec 30, 2016)

LightObsession said:


> PSA: The TIP CRI is on sale at:
> 
> Battery Junction - $26.12 for a couple more days - no code needed.
> 
> Gearbest - $22.95 using their CPF code in the Dealer's section of CPF.



illumn: Nitecore Tip USB Rechargeable Keychain Light 220 Lumens (CRI 5000K) code blacknovember brings it to $24.49


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## bansuri (Jan 1, 2017)

Here's the straw-hats in all their glory:






The bizarre crop-ring straw-hat circles:





If you want to use your red light for up close work and don't want the crazy rings ruining the light, I've found that you can scuff up the ends of the emitters easy enough with some sandpaper.
You can probably do it without ever removing the screws, just turn a tiny scrap of sandpaper into a little cone and work the end of the emitter. I had instant results but will probably put a little more effort into it to get is looking even better.
NOTE: this is irreversible. Don't do this if you wish to project a sort of super-villain looking logo out of your light. You'll lose all the throw but, in my limited experience, red light is usually used for close work anyway.

















OK, with a little more effort I was able to flatten the emitters close to flush and now I've got pretty much artifact-free red flood. Much nicer, unless you need the throw.


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## Mr. Tone (Jan 1, 2017)

That's much improved in my opinion for the red lights.


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## LightObsession (Jan 1, 2017)

Nice work on the red lights.


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## jon_slider (Jan 1, 2017)

bansuri said:


> sandpaper.


Great improvement!
Is the red light enough to see your way to the bathroom in the middle of the night?


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## KiwiMark (Jan 1, 2017)

bansuri said:


>



For me having the red LEDs instead of a 1 lumen low on the white light is still a deal breaker, but for those that want red light instead of white for the low output - that is 100x better IMO.
A very cheap and effective mod, nicely done!


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## greg c (Jan 2, 2017)

Can anyone take a size comparison shot with a MecArmy SGN3?


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## jon_slider (Jan 2, 2017)

greg c said:


> Can anyone take a size comparison shot with a MecArmy SGN3?


good question 
you can also get some idea by comparing weights
Nitecore Tube 10 grams
Tip 21 grams
LAD 25 grams
Sidekick 34 grams
SGN3 38 grams

fwiw the SGN3 does not offer a Nichia option, it has PWM, and Ive read reports that it can turn on accidentally in pocket. fwiw, the sidekick also offers no Nichia, and also has PWM.

of the lights mentioned, Only the LAD is NoPWM, and only the LAD and TIP offer Nichia.








fulabeer said:


> Lad left - Tube right


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## jon_slider (Jan 2, 2017)

Does LAD have some sort of Low Voltage warning?



fulabeer said:


> I seem to have used all the charge. Instead of switching off, it reverted to the red LED mode…. now wondering if it shut down to red LED's due to heat. I was running it in high mode...


maybe the dragon breath will come on as a low battery warning, the way it does in the Manker Q11*Budda wrote: *
When the battery is low, the blue led will turn on in dragon breath mode.

then this post about the LAD showed up:
*Muto wrote: *
It goes from any level right to red.

​


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## KITROBASKIN (Jan 2, 2017)

Once again, more Slider deceptiveness, as well as the unsubstantiated claim of the LAD being constant current regulated. Are we supposed to feel sorry for him/her having to deal with this obsession?

I had the chance to walk in the perfect snowfall for checking Pulse Width Modulation, comparing the TIP CRI with another non apparent-PWM flashlight; the Clear Convoy C-8 with biscotti firmware. There was absolutely no signs of PWM at all, and unlike the one "proof of PWM" picture that slider keeps parading out ad nauseum, can be replicated by any readers here.

Curious that Manker is not getting incessantly slammed for the red straw hat and the dragon's breath features, as well as the proud screws and other design elements. I certainly won't, in that Manker is to be applauded for their enthusiasm, hard work, and willingness to listen to the flashlight community.



ToddM said:


> The banding could be a result of the downsize and extra compression I did in photoshop for web hosting. I don't see that effect on the full size original picture from the phone, but I absolutely see it in smaller version posted above when enlarged 300%.



This, from a response to ANOTHER claim that Slider is seeing PWM in a photograph.


----------



## greg c (Jan 2, 2017)

jon_slider said:


> good question
> you can also get some idea by comparing weights
> Nitecore Tube 10 grams
> Tip 21 grams
> ...



Thanks. The PWM and the lack of nichia are exactly the reasons that I'm looking to replace my SGN3.


----------



## Streamer (Jan 2, 2017)

:sweat:


----------



## bansuri (Jan 2, 2017)

Here's my current lineup of "cheap, little lights". 





I used to be crazy about flashlights when I first started here, I've pretty much kept away for a few years as I am pretty happy with what I've got and things have moved in a different direction than I'd hoped.
For example, I was happiest when HDS still sold the $100 clicky and Twisty, and Liteflux were available for retail price. Loved swapping emitters and DIY-ing with drivers and general modding.
The hobby part kind of died when I got an SC62d and realized that it did everything I needed in a handheld.
These cheap little lights, (sorry nbp, I still LOL at that), have kinda got me back in but I'm amazed we're still dealing with things that I thought would've been cleared up years ago.
Tints are good enough that you're not forced to swap emitters most of the time, but PWM shouldn't be visible and clunky interfaces make me wonder if there are ANY flashloholics employed at light manufacturers.

I gave the SGN3 to my daughter as it's unusable with the PWM and M-H-L driver. PWM on Med and Low so bad it laughable. 

The Manker is OK, from what I've seen it's prolly best to unplug it AS SOON as it charges, because unlike "quality chargers", it sits there trickle charging a li-ion battery at .030A. Output is nothing spectacular, that's best with this small battery, this is a light when all you need is a little light. Nice light for the price. With the single recessed button it's probably the best keychain light. 

The TIP has best interface, best levels, best everything but the damn thing comes on in the pocket. Great they put a lockout on it, fantastic, but it's a pain. You might be able to activate it with just one thumb, but you'll probably turn on the turbo mode instead and then you're back at it with both hands. It's the light to carry of all these IMHO but damn those buttons. I filed mine down 50% and it didn't make a lick of difference. May try putting some small o-rings around the switches. It turns on in my pocket every time if I don't lock it out. Easy on to low, turbo, or last mode is great, output and beam profile is fantastic. Just don't put it in your pocket.

The Tube is chomping at all of these lights with it's $8 delivered (when you find it on sale) price tag. If they got rid of PWM this would be the light to beat. It weighs nothing and is pretty handy as a neck light. Tint isn't bad on these clear ones, sometimes I just need a little light and these are perfect. Great for camping.

Maybe we'll get a cheap little light with a slider switch for activation, that would take care of pocket activation. 

OH yeah, if anyone was wondering, I can't move the TIP fast enough to capture any PWM. TiP and LAD both have flicker free output. Was really sad to see it on TWO levels of the SGN3, considering the price.


----------



## nbp (Jan 2, 2017)

@Kitrobaskin: Please put jon slider on your ignore list. 

@Jon slider: One of your posts was deleted. Language like that is prohibited here and you know it. Put Kitrobaskin on your ignore list. 

@bansuri: They may be cheap but it doesn't mean they're bad. I have 3 Tubes and I love those little things! I just don't get how heated people get over them. Settle down folks, these ain't Search and Rescue lights here! Haha


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## greg c (Jan 2, 2017)

Great shot thanks, I've got one on the way!


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## Streamer (Jan 2, 2017)

bansuri, does your Tube have lockout capability? Seems I remember the last production was upgraded with lockout. Or was that internet misinformation?


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## bansuri (Jan 2, 2017)

Streamer said:


> bansuri, does your Tube have lockout capability? Seems I remember the last production was upgraded with lockout. Or was that internet misinformation?




Yes it does! 

From LOW press and hold, it'll go out, keep holding until the light flashes once. Then it's in lockout. Press and hold until it turns on to get out of lockout.


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## bansuri (Jan 2, 2017)

Here's the LAD and TIP being swung as fast as I can. Finally figured out to just hold down the shutter and take 100 pics, then choose from the ones that capture the beams. 
Anyway, I don't see any PWM in either of them. Either too high frequency or just not there. If I can't see it then it's fine by me. We live in a 60hz world, good luck avoiding flickering lights in the US.
The LAD would benefit from having its hole rotated 90 degrees.
I'm waiting for someone to just make a light out of a key fob. Neither light seems like they want you to carry it on your key ring.


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## Streamer (Jan 2, 2017)

bansuri said:


> Yes it does!
> 
> From LOW press and hold, it'll go out, keep holding until the light flashes once. Then it's in lockout. Press and hold until it turns on to get out of lockout.



And now the big question...does it also have lockout parasitic drain as bad as the Tip?


----------



## jon_slider (Jan 2, 2017)

bansuri said:


> Here's the LAD and TIP being swung as fast as I can.
> Anyway, I don't see any PWM in either of them.


Thanks for trying. 

Here are two people who can detect it
http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb...t-use-NO-PWM&p=4992504&viewfull=1#post4992504

http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb...Nitecore-TIP&p=4993257&viewfull=1#post4993257


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## KITROBASKIN (Jan 2, 2017)

jon_slider said:


> Thanks for trying.
> 
> Here are two people who can detect it
> http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb...t-use-NO-PWM&p=4992504&viewfull=1#post4992504
> ...



From one of the links referenced above:
"Bottom line is i doubt even the most sensitive eye can detect a PWM on the TIP"

'More of the same claims that suffer scrutiny'

And in the other link, the member states that bands of PWM are visible with his camera on high mode with the TIPs. Really? High mode does not use PWM in any light I am aware of. PWM is used to make lower modes by turning the emitter on and off rapidly, thus a less bright setting.

Curious that slider has claimed she/he is a photographer (and uses flashlights to take pictures) yet does not have any 'smoking gun' images of his own.


----------



## bansuri (Jan 2, 2017)

TIP, LAD, and Tube, spinning around on a ball chain. 
It seems like you really want some evidence of PWM Jon, I've been unable to find it. Maybe they bumped the frequency way up with V2? 
















They were all spinning fast, the Tube shot really shows off the effect! 
I'd bet that an incan would hardly be noticeable with PWM as the element wouldn't cool off quick enough between pulses. LED looks to be _OFF_ as soon as the pulse switches to zero.
I took some 60FPS video and thought I had something for a moment but it was from my monitor, went away when I turned it off.

That's all I can contribute to the PWM debate because the reactions going on in here make me feel like I'm missing something.... I guess I've been away too long.

If you can live with the little nitpicky things, any of these lights beats out the old CR2016 lights simply because they're rechargeable. And despite the visible flicker of the Tube, it's the one I put back on my neck after the test!
I'll shoehorn the other ones into my life, finding little places where I often need lights is easy in a 100 yr old house and when you work at a place that so broke we can't replace light bulbs.


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## Streamer (Jan 2, 2017)

bansuri said:


> TIP, LAD, and Tube, spinning around on a ball chain.
> It seems like you really want some evidence of PWM Jon, I've been unable to find it. Maybe they bumped the frequency way up with V2?
> 
> 
> ...



Does your Tube suffer from parasitic drain in lockout mode? Thanks in advance.


----------



## StandardBattery (Jan 2, 2017)

LightObsession said:


> I asked Battery Junction if their TIP CRI were the newer version of the firmware that doesn't have the issue of battery drainage when locked out and they said that
> 
> the TIP CRI Never Had the Battery Drainage During Lockout Like the Standard Version.
> ....


*That is a load of crap. *


----------



## superedge88 (Jan 3, 2017)

The grey version of the LAD is now available FINALLY!


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## jon_slider (Jan 3, 2017)

bansuri said:


> TIP, LAD, and Tube, spinning around on a ball chain.
> It seems like you really want some evidence of PWM Jon, I've been unable to find it.


I respect your efforts, thank you. 
Since the mods have let stand Kitros accusation that I am dishonest, I offer more evidence, a photo I did not take

fwiw, enlarging a photo cannot show PWM that is not there, only the TIP in this photo shows scan lines





If someone does not care about PWM, that is their choice, but I dont think it is right to attack me personally, for showing photos with scan lines. Im not telling anyone what to think about PWM, Im just showing it exists in the TIP.

In any case, I think we can all agree that the LAD has NoPWM.


----------



## hmihaylov (Jan 3, 2017)

You guys. Do you know OUR SUN uses PWM? 

Just kidding. 

Actually, it kind of does. Look it up. The light is a wave. Thus it has frequency. It is just very high. So if you have the right equipment, you can prove (specifically Jon), that the Sun uses PWM!


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## ronniepudding (Jan 3, 2017)

I am sensitive to Pulse Width Modulation, and bad/slow PWM is so annoying (to my eyes and brain) that it is a deal-breaker in otherwise fine lights. The Nitecore Tube is a relevant example of an otherwise fine light that is pretty much unusable to me on its lower mode(s)...  

Given the discussion re: PWM and the Nitecore TIP, I put some effort into trying to capture any evidence of PWM, pulse, or flicker in my TIP CRI *v2 *via my cellphone camera. I fully recognize that my photography skills are not the best, so please forgive their lack of refinement. Nevertheless, the pics I've attached here (of the TIP's lowest, moonlight mode ) mirror my experience with using the light in practice... namely, that there is no detectable pulsing: 




[/URL]TIP CRI v2 by Richard Rhodes, on Flickr[/IMG]




[/URL]TIP CRI v2 by Richard Rhodes, on Flickr[/IMG]


This is not to say that all Nitecore TIPs are flicker free; I had a [non-CRI] TIPbriefly, but I sent it back to the vendor immediately, so I cannot measure or comment on pulsing in non-CRI versions, nor can I comment on pulsing in previous (v1) version samples, etc. I have read about some lights (from reputable sources, e.g. Selfbuilt's review of Fenix LD12 a few years back) that can exibit flickering caused by "circuit noise"... not caused by PWM per se. I've also experienced lights that pulse visibly when the battery gets low. So I guess my point is that any one user's experience with a limited sample set, while personally valid, is not comprehensive.


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## jon_slider (Jan 3, 2017)

Im happy for you, that the Tip does not bother your PWM sensitivity, and thanks for posting your photos. I agree they do not capture any PWM.

for some reason, this photo does: (click pic to see original image and technique used)




Im surprised several people could not produce a similar image, but maybe there is a difference in technique. Anyway, if youre happy with your light, thats all that matters. Enjoy!

At least we all seem to agree the LAD does not use PWM. At least Nobody has been able to photograph any, yet. So I would say yes, the LAD could be an alternative to the TIP. And after all, this thread is about the LAD. I hope the TIP PWM argument in this thread, can end now. There is a thread all about the TIP where that has already been covered in detail.


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## ronniepudding (Jan 3, 2017)

jon_slider said:


> I'm happy for you, that the Tip does not bother your PWM sensitivity, and thanks for posting your photos. I agree they do not capture any PWM.
> 
> ...
> 
> At least we all seem to agree the LAD does not use PWM. At least Nobody has been able to photograph any, yet. So I would say yes, the LAD could be an alternative to the TIP. And after all, this thread is about the LAD. I hope the TIP PWM argument in this thread, can end now. There is a thread all about the TIP where that has already been covered in detail.



Agreed, and thank you Jon for your contributions in this thread, and in the TIP thread.

I personally like the looks of the LAD, and see a couple of possible improvements over the TIP in 1) the recessed button, and 2) the integrated boot cover for the charging port. I am in any case very glad to see the proliferation the Nichia 219c in everyday production lights like this one, and the accompanying focus on tint and CRI. So cheers to Manker on all three points. Unfortunately, the LAD's red emitters and its UI are not for me; for those reasons, and since I am indeed very happy with my recent TIP purchase, I will likely not be buying a LAD in the near future.


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## bltkmt (Jan 11, 2017)

Received my red 219c LAD this week and really like it so far (I love my two TIPs as well). The LAD seems a bit more solid in the hand and I like the body shape. The UI was confusing at first until I watched a review on YouTube that simplified it for me - now I really like it. The red LEDs work very well for moonlight mode. I wish they had a better beam profile but that is difficult with two separate LEDs I imagine. The smaller battery is concerning - wish it could be similar to the TIPs. I tend to top mine off every few days though.


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## jon_slider (Jan 11, 2017)

After watching this video, and seeing that a single click starts the LAD on the first white light level (they call it low, its about 20 lumens), I went ahead and ordered a Red Lad with N219c from Ebay. I also liked seeing that the LAD form factor is slightly more compact than the Tip. The biggest reason I chose the LAD over the TIP for this application, is to avoid any need to add a lockout procedure to using the light, since it is a gift to a non flashaholic college student.


They live near a construction zone and have been getting a lot of flat tires, so I assembled a kit that includes a FlashLight, Airpump (Viair 85p), Tire plug kit, Air Pressure gauge, Gloves, Shop Towels, and a Leatherman.

Atm the flashlight in the kit is one of my prized Copper Tool w Nichia, loaded with Ultimate Lithium, plus a spare battery. I would like to reclaim the Tool when the LAD arrives, as I think the rechargeable feature of the LAD will be practical. I also like that the LAD includes a mini USB charge cord. (We are an iPhone family, and they do not use miniUSB)


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## Tachead (Jan 11, 2017)

jon_slider said:


> Im happy for you, that the Tip does not bother your PWM sensitivity, and thanks for posting your photos. I agree they do not capture any PWM.
> 
> for some reason, this photo does: (click pic to see original image and technique used)
> 
> ...


Have you considered that it may be the camera causing the effect and not the light Jon? Your crusade against PWM using cheap cameras as "proof" gets quite tiring(especially when it's in close to every thread you participate in) and I know I am not the only one to feel this way. You should get an oscilloscope and/or a life man.

This is a neat little light. Glad to see more and more companies offering high CRI options.


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## Dutchman (Jan 11, 2017)

Hello,

questions on the battery, is it a standard size and can you replace it yourself?

thx

Kees


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## jon_slider (Jan 11, 2017)

Tachead said:


> [h=2]This message is hidden because Tachead is on your ignore list.[/h]



Im not interested in your opinions about my opinions Tachead. 
afaict, You are a Hater with nothing positive to contribute. 
If my posts bother you, ignore me, instead of tailgating me to police my posts.


----------



## Tachead (Jan 11, 2017)

jon_slider said:


> Im not interested in your opinions about my opinions Tachead.
> afaict, You are a Hater with nothing positive to contribute.
> If my posts bother you, ignore me, instead of tailgating me to police my posts.


I have plenty of positive to contribute Jon. Just not to your annoying lack of real proof, camera phone, anti PWM crusade in every thread(there is no tailgating it's just that they are in almost every thread you post in). Your constant PWM posts bother many Jon, please keep your anti PWM crusade confined to your thread about PWM.


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## jon_slider (Jan 11, 2017)

Dutchman said:


> questions on the battery, is it a standard size and can you replace it yourself?



someone else asked the same question, and got this response on another forum:



Mankerlight said:


> hIKARInoob said:
> 
> 
> > So Manker, is the battery user replaceable? Is it somehow a standardised cell you can buy? I hate to discard this light if the battery goes dead some day...
> ...



My opinion is the LAD has a battery that does not need replacing. Its more like a cell phone, the battery is a flat square pack that stays in the device. I do not expect to replace batteries on a LAD.

If you want a small light with a miniUSB charging option, but that still lets you remove and replace the battery, one option would be a light that uses a 10180 battery, more about those here and if you want it to come with a Nichia, here is a post about an M01 I bought recently Astrolux M01 w N219b… fwiw bangood has those on sale atm

I decided that to give to a college student that is not into flashlights, the Manker LAD would be a better choice, because the 10180 twisty lights are unreliable, they flicker if you dont twist to the right spot, which requires 2 hands and some fiddling. The LAD has a very simple interface that needs little explaining or training, and imo one of the advantages is that there is no need to change batteries. That is why I think the LAD is also a better choice, for my kid, than my Copper Tool that requires AAA batteries removed and replaced. Even though I love my Tool more, Im getting the LAD for someone that does not Want to change batteries.


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## superedge88 (Jan 12, 2017)

I just received my grey LAD and my first impressions are very positive! It's a little smaller than I thought (which is a pleasant surprise) the button seems to have good pressure resistance, interface is intuitive, and the brightness is more than I'd expect /need from a light this size. 
The only issue I have is the red LEDs, they're much too focused. But I honestly don't plan on using the red LEDs much anyways so this doesn't bother me much.


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## jon_slider (Jan 12, 2017)

superedge88 said:


> interface is intuitive


Congrats and thanks for your comments. Im looking forward to receiving a Red LAD I ordered recently. I am hopeful that the interface will be easily adopted by my college student, for whom I "claim" I bought the LAD. I wanted a simple interface with a single button, that would not require a lockout strategy..

So far no reports of accidental activation of a LAD.. I hope yours serves you well.

Regarding the Red LEDs, I will be curious to test them as a middle of the night, wake to pee light. The long narrow focus is not what I thought Straw Hat would be, I expected floods, but apparently a little sanding can make that happen.. will share my impressions once the light arrives.




ToddM said:


> probably 6-7' away… If you were pointing it on the floor a few feet in front of you walking you basically could see nothing but what's in that small circle of red rings…. I would not want to use it for walking around the house at night...





ToddM said:


>





bansuri said:


> I've found that you can scuff up the ends of the emitters easy enough with some sandpaper….
> NOTE: this is irreversible....
> 
> 
> ...


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## jon_slider (Jan 19, 2017)

Received a N219c LAD today. Compared it to the N219b in the head of a Lumintop Worm. All lumen estimates are from my "calibrated" light meter. The Manker has been fully charged, it took 1 hour 20 minutes. (out of the box the light worked at 1/3 less brightness)





first mode on LAD:






second mode on LAD:





third mode on LAD:





4th mode on LAD (red):





here is high mode on the Wrom: (spec is 80)





first impressions
I like that the LAD is small, and a single click from off always starts on its 1st mode, of about 10 lumens. Likely to be useful to a college student that is not interested in flashlights, nor in buying batteries.

N219B Wrom:





N219c LAD:





LAD on left:




imo the N219c has a yellow tint, it does appear to be about 4000k, I prefer the N219b, in these specific samples

disclaimer
the values Im getting are about 50% of LAD specs.. its possible my measuring device is not able to account for the TIR, which lacks a hotspot that the reflector on the Wrom has.

about the beam:
the lad has a nice broad beam with no hotspot. It is wider than the hotspot on the conventional reflector of the Wrom (Lumintop Worm AAA) 

Red Led example standing in front of the toilet, I can easily spot the target zones:


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## jon_slider (Jan 20, 2017)

About LAD PWM
I cannot detect dots when waving the light really fast.
I cannot detect scan lines in closeups of the beamshots.
There IS some kind of PWM interference on extreme closeup, both still photo and video:






by contrast here is the extreme closeup of a Lumintop Worm w Nichia




and Worm video



regarding LAD risk of accidental activation: 
I think it is impossible to have a LAD turn on by accident in pocket. The button is very hard to push, and is recessed. Here is a video, not mine, about the LAD having no Accidental Discharge:


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## wacbzz (Jan 21, 2017)

So, after an almost uncountable number of posts that about went on and on an on about PWM, and then finally a purchase because the LAD "didn't" have said PWM, and now this?



jon_slider said:


> About LAD PWM
> ....
> There IS some kind of PWM interference on extreme closeup, both still photo and video:




*SNICKER*
*SNICKER*
*SNICKER*


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## KITROBASKIN (Jan 21, 2017)

Slider chose to make his picture public. 
Hopefully, virtually no one of sound mind and body will make a purchase decision based on these 'photos' and just know that there is no apparent pulse width modulation in either of these two decent flashlights.


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## KITROBASKIN (Jan 21, 2017)

SHOT Show 2017 as reported by CPF member Nichia!:

Armytek Zippy 200 lumen rechargeable, similar sized to these flashlights.


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## jon_slider (Jan 22, 2017)

I was looking for the lumen specs for the LAD w Nichia and found this

Output & Runtime:


Red: 1 lumen, 100 hours
Low: 23 lumens, 5.6 hours
Medium: 86 lumens, 1.5 hour
High: 230 lumens, 0.5 hour
Strobe: 230 lumens
imho, those lumen specs are about Double what I measured. I have not seen any lumen test to confirm the specs for TIP CRI.

I still think the LAD w Nichia has several useful features, light weight, as bright as my AAA and AA lights with Nichia, simple one button interface that does not turn on by mistake in pocket, small size, good CRI and Tint...

the PWM is not visible when waving the light, similar to the TIP, it can only be detected with special photography skills..

I do think the LAD is a good keychain option, and a good alternative to the TIP, whose protruding buttons are prone to accidental activation. (there are even reports of TIP accidental unlocking)

regarding the red Super Hero LEDs, Im testing the bansuri method, on one LED, I did not take the bezel off.. will know more tonight, but here is a preview.. can you guess which one got sanded w 600 grit?






my preliminary impression is that sanding makes a dimmer beam of the same diameter, with less throw and less Super Hero artifacts. imo these are not Red Hat, Floody style LEDs, they are very narrow beam and a conventional domed shape. 

fwiw, I cannot detect any PWM on the Red Mode.

Here is Dragons Breath PWM


----------



## jon_slider (Jan 25, 2017)

Yesterday I sanded the other red LED, so both red beams are now more diffused, and tested the light when I woke up in the middle of the night for a bathroom run.

The red mode worked very well to see the floor and the walls. imho, the sanded LEDs definitely work Better, and make navigation in the dark easier.

kudos to bansuri for sharing the sanding trick.


----------



## bltkmt (Feb 1, 2017)

bansuri said:


> The blue light never did go out, which is no big deal, but would be nice if it stopped charging completely at some point.




Love this light, but this behavior bugs me. Why not have it so the blue light goes off when the light is fully charged? How can you tell otherwise?


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## jon_slider (Feb 1, 2017)

bltkmt said:


> How can you tell otherwise?


When the light stops blinking it is charged.

fwiw, I gave my college kid a choice between my LAD and an Astrolux M03 for keychain. She picked the LAD. Seemed very impressed with the feature set. I did not mention the strobe features, that I cannot click fast enough to get into.

Im expecting a contact after she discovers that after charging, the Lad turns on in Strobe mode on the first click.










those two lights weigh exactly the same. The LAD is much more newbie friendly imnsho.


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## bltkmt (Feb 2, 2017)

jon_slider said:


> When the light stops blinking it is charged.




Yet, isn't it still trickle charging? Again, it would make sense to have a clear indication when the light is fully charged.


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## jon_slider (Feb 2, 2017)

bltkmt said:


> isn't it still trickle charging?



my guess is no, but I have not tested it
maybe you could find out by using one of these cute inline meters
it might be useful for estimating remaining battery life between charges too

Maybe consider adopting a charging strategy that does not leave the unit plugged in while unattended for long periods

Here is how I deal with the LAD battery.
The charge cycle takes an hour, I usually just plug into my laptop while online, and take the LAD with me when I leave. For those who dont know, it is not necessary to discharge LiIon completely between charges, it is fine to top it up any time. 

For safety, I dont walk away from LiIon during charging, and I dont leave it plugged in overnight.


----------



## bansuri (Feb 3, 2017)

bltkmt said:


> Yet, isn't it still trickle charging? Again, it would make sense to have a clear indication when the light is fully charged.



My LAD would draw .03A when indicator showed charging complete.
My TIP draws .01A when done.

I got rid of my LAD or I would check the battery leads to see if any of that current was going into the battery. I hope and doubt it's trickle charging, the response from Manker makes me think it's not. 
Sorry I didn't check when I had it, someone else is gonna have to dig in for the team. It could just be powering the cutoff circuit and indicator LED, just speculating. 
I've got a few TIPs so I"ll check what's going on in there and post in the appropriate thread.

Don't fall in love with your LAD or TIP, I get the feeling we're gonna be seeing a flood of these CLLs from now on. No complaints here! Old-timers remember the valiant efforts by custom makers to build something like this, now we just click and wait!
Great time to be a flashoholic.


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## samgab (Feb 4, 2017)

jon_slider said:


> claims to use constant current (so does the Tip but its not true)




They made a typo/mistake in their original marketing slide which is where this rumour of PWM came from. There is NO PWM! It's constant current. I can both hear and see PWM (high frequency whine and when moved quickly it can be seen by the naked eye as well as in photos). _*TIP HAS NO/NIL/ZERO/NADA/NONE PWM, confirmed.*_ (_In the current generation, at least, which I have)._




The corrected marketing slide.





This is my TIP 360: NO PWM!





This is a 4Sevens Preon2: PWM Visible!





Here is the Preon2 on the left and the new TIP 360 on the right. Note the PWM on the Preon2, but the smooth output with NO PWM on the TIP on the right!!


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## samgab (Feb 4, 2017)

Here's another picture with 4 of my lights, 2 with PWM, and 2 with constant current, all set to the lowest mode:





So they are, from left to right:
New Nitecore TIP 360, 4Sevens REVO with Constant current, 4Sevens Quark mini with PWM, 4Sevens Preon2 with PWM.

You can see that the two on the right have PWM, but the two on the left, including my TIP, do NOT have PWM.
Maybe the early models of the TIP did have PWM, explaining those early pictures which appeared to show it, but current generation TIPs definitely do NOT have PWM.


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## WigglyTheGreat (Feb 7, 2017)

I just bought the Manker Lad 219c to replace my Nitecore Tip cool white keychain light. I like the Nitecore tip, but the accidental activation is really killing it's usefullness for me and I am not a fan of the cool white. I bought the tip on preorder and no hi cri version was available at that time or I would have bought that instead. 

The Manker Lad is not perfect, but overall I still am impressed with it. I too wish they had a firefly mode instead of the red leds. I plan to sand the red leds to smooth out the rediculous beam pattern like others have done here so thanks for the info. Minus the firefly mode, I really like the spacing of the other modes and I love the warmer tint of this light. I am hopeful that the coating on the Manker holds up better than that of the Nitecore as the Nitecore is quite chipped up from being in my pocket with keys. The manker definitely seems far less prone to accidental activation so that is a big positive. I only received my Manker a few days ago so time will tell how it holds up, but I feel good about my purchase right now.


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## jon_slider (Feb 7, 2017)

I also like the 4000k CCT of the Manker. And I really like the UI, so does my college kid, who now has it on their keychain.

I sanded my red LEDs, but they were from the first batch. there is a new batch of red LEDs that are actually what they were supposed to be.. floody, without the spot beam and artifacts of the first run. So, does your red LED look like the top one in this pic, or the bottom ones? (pic is a link to the thread)




jon_slider said:


> Etex said:
> 
> 
> > Red lights are a little different.
> ...


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## Streamer (Feb 7, 2017)

FCOL....so now, it looks like a V1 & V2 version of the Manker exists? A repeat of the TIP? I won't be buyin' anytime soon that's for sure.


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## jon_slider (Feb 7, 2017)

Streamer said:


> FCOL....so now, it looks like a V1 & V2 version of the Manker exists? A repeat of the TIP? I won't be buyin' anytime soon that's for sure.



most lights change and evolve.. some start out with PWM, then go to NoPWM, then go back to PWM
or they have different CCT LEDs in different runs, or they change the box, or the mode sequence, or add a pocket clip, etc etc.

The LAD is not a repeat of the TIP, but they both have several versions and have changed over time. They each have different strong points and weak points. 

The flashlight thing is just another consumerism, manufacturers pump out a bunch of gizmos, run a bunch of free Social Media reviews, a bunch of people buy the stuff.. and the a new batch comes out.. always new, always better.

Maybe youre lucky, not tempted, dont need more lights, are happy with what you have.. thats a good place to be.. Dont worry, Be Happy! Im going to copy you, and not buy any more lights.. LOL 

(no disrespect intended, I know your Tip Saga, but these are not the LADs youre looking for. We don't have any Accidental Activations or Excessive Discharges here. The LAD IS the alternative to the Tip in those regards.)


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## WigglyTheGreat (Feb 8, 2017)

jon_slider said:


> I also like the 4000k CCT of the Manker. And I really like the UI, so does my college kid, who now has it on their keychain.
> 
> I sanded my red LEDs, but they were from the first batch. there is a new batch of red LEDs that are actually what they were supposed to be.. floody, without the spot beam and artifacts of the first run. So, does your red LED look like the top one in this pic, or the bottom ones? (pic is a link to the thread)



My Manker Lad is definitely like the top pic. It must be the earlier version. Shouldn't take much to correct it though when I get a chance.


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## BigBluefish (Feb 8, 2017)

I think I'm going to pull the trigger on one of these. For $25...???? I've had a MecArmy SGN3 on my keys for the last year or so. And while the light does what the mfg. said it would do, I find the UI pretty wonky. Not a big deal on a keychain light when it has other features I like, which this one does. What is a PITA though, is the fact that it does turn on in pocket, in tighter jeans, which I do wear. That not only looks stupid, it drains the tiny battery pretty fast if it happens to be on "high." If the Lad doesn't come on accidentally, it will probably be replacing my SGN3 on keyring duty.


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## jon_slider (Feb 18, 2017)

Visited with my kid in college yesterday. Offered an Astrolux M02 in trade to try and get the LAD back, but was refused. The LAD is on her keychain to stay, she really likes it. Works One handed, one button operation, no accidental activations.

I inquired if she had used more than the first mode, she reports having used the strobe to cross the street on a dark night, to alert oncoming traffic, and also used the second mode briefly. Has not used the Red mode, nor highest mode yet. I gave her the Nichia version, and on my light meter the first mode is 10 lumens. Im hoping someone will confirm the mode brightness levels, as I dont trust the specs are accurate.

Still thumbs up on the LAD as a gift to a non flashoholic. Zero issues...

more on the Astrolux here, they are on sale for under $20 w Nichia LEDs (cooler tints than my Worm)


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## BigBluefish (Feb 20, 2017)

Got my 219 LAD the other day from that big river. The main beam is great, but the red is awful. Looks like the back of an old VHS tape, in red. Pretty much useless. I think a bit of the sandpaper treatment is in order. The one thing about the SGN3 that surprised me is that the red beam is actually pretty good. 

Good Point #1 about that LAD is that it does not seem to want to go on accidentally. Good Point #2 is that the UI is much better than that on the SGN3. The only gripe I have is I wish the low were lower. Honestly, there is not a huge range between low, medium and high, or so it seems. But I've only had the chance to use it inside. I'll have to try it outside.


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## jon_slider (Feb 20, 2017)

BigBluefish said:


> The main beam is great, but the red is awful.


you probably have the first batch of LEDs that were NOT straw hats
sanding helps
see post 177 for a pic of the two different red LED types used in the LAD

give the red a chance to prove its utility to you in the middle of the night. Try the red mode when you wake up in the dark to go to the bathroom. I find I can easily navigate with the red mode, both before and after sanding the original Spot Beam red leds


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## iamlucky13 (Feb 20, 2017)

jon_slider said:


> Visited with my kid in college yesterday. Offered an Astrolux M02 in trade to try and get the LAD back, but was refused. The LAD is on her keychain to stay, she really likes it. Works One handed, one button operation, no accidental activations.



That's good to hear. In some ways, I'm as interested or perhaps more interested to hear what non-flashaholics think of lights that I might consider as gifts than I am what those of us here think.

If somebody who doesn't care about all the nitty gritty details, and I'm betting has a light on her phone she could otherwise use, not only refuses to give hers up, but won't even trade it for an even smaller light, that's a solid endorsement.


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## jon_slider (Feb 20, 2017)

iamlucky13 said:


> If somebody who doesn't care about all the nitty gritty details, and I'm betting has a light on her phone she could otherwise use, not only refuses to give hers up, but won't even trade it for an even smaller light, that's a solid endorsement.



exactly! She refused an E05 previously, claiming it was "too big" for her keychain, and that her iPhone worked fine as a flashlight. 

I got her to accept a Pico light (10 grams), which she found useful, until it ran out of batteries, and she had no idea where to locate replacements. The M02 (18 grams) was intended to replace the Pico, but the LAD won out because

1. It does not require 2 hands to operate
2. It is not finnicky like the little 10180 lights
3. It provides a useful first mode from a single click..

and to my surprise
4. She likes to use the strobe to cross the street at night 
(living in the BayArea of Crowdifornia there is LOTS of traffic on the roads)

Ive not heard any "too big" complaints.

One of the things I like best about the LAD as a gift light, is that it is mini USB rechargeable (and btw, a charge cable is included)


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## bltkmt (Mar 20, 2017)

Who is selling the new LADs, with the red LED fixed?


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## bltkmt (Mar 20, 2017)




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## BigBluefish (Mar 20, 2017)

Ouch...not happy about this. Pulled my LAD out of my pocket and the rubber switch cover was among the missing. Had the presence of mind (after a few unprintable words) to check the jacket pocket in which the keys were riding the night before, and there it was. Think I may need to squirt a little Loctite or epoxy around the rim to keep the edge of the cover under the rim of the opening for the switch.


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## BazzH (Mar 20, 2017)

I've got one and I think it's the best light for what it's designed for: a keychain, edc light that can be handled by non-flashaholics. Lumen range is great, it's sturdily build, UIC is easy enough if you keep away from carnival modes.

The only thing wrong in my (early) light is the red leds that need to be sandpapered to the bone to avoid the strange artifacts.

Looking forward to an MK II version where the UI is cut down to moonlight-med-high-turbo and the straw hat red leds are realy straw hat: floody red with no saturnus rings.

Great concept, execution can be bettered AFAIC.


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## jon_slider (Mar 20, 2017)

bltkmt said:


> Who is selling the new LADs, with the red LED fixed?


I would like to know too
if you want to research it for us, I suggest you click the pic in this post, #177 and ask the OP where his came from. And maybe also email Manker, or whatever vendor you prefer (always better to buy in the country you live in if you contemplate a return)
share what you learn



BigBluefish said:


> Ouch...not happy about this. Pulled my LAD out of my pocket and the rubber switch cover was among the missing.


thanks for sharing your pain
share your successful solution too if possible



BazzH said:


> straw hat red leds are realy straw hat


see photo in post 177

fwiw, my Lad has been living on a college students keychain for the last month and a half. I have not heard of any issues, will update if that changes. I did sand the LEDs, it was not difficult, and Im considering buying another one for myself..


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## bltkmt (Mar 22, 2017)

I ordered another one - Cree version since I already have the Nichia one. I like these better than the Tips.


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