# Shameless Knockoff



## [email protected] (Jun 14, 2007)

http://auction1.taobao.com/auction/...b68d690e43af9384e.jhtml?from_item_detail=true

It has brought to my attention that there has been some shameless knockoffs of Surefire torches made in the Mainland China.

I must advise CPF members to beware of these torches and we will not be responsible if our lamps do not fit/work or whatever if you install them in these lights.

You will NOT get a refund, exchange or whatever if you try to use our products on these knockoffs.

We DESPISE people who have absolutely no respect for intellectual property.


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## defusion (Jun 14, 2007)

wow, thats a very accurate knockoff!
it got me worried my M3 (got it from ebay) might be a knockoff!
mine has warranty documents and as far as i can tell a surefire box, so not to worried.
oh yeah, and it doesn't fit 18650's, so definately a real surefire


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## frosty (Jun 14, 2007)

Is there any way to spot externally that this is a fake? It looks very accurate.


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## DM51 (Jun 14, 2007)

It says it costs 850.00 of whatever they are, "yings" or something, but if there are a lot of these yings to the $, then the metal will be very inferior and it should be easy enough to tell the difference. The beam probably won't be at all good either.


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## jumpstat (Jun 14, 2007)

frosty said:


> Is there any way to spot externally that this is a fake? It looks very accurate.


If it was in a surefire box, I would be taken.....the likeness to the real thing is astounding! If M3 can be copied, M6, M4.....endless...very worrying....


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## vic2367 (Jun 14, 2007)

heres to dealing with china :thumbsdow


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## DM51 (Jun 14, 2007)

If they can copy the light itself, you can be sure they can copy the box and documentation just as easily, and you won't be able to tell the difference with that like you will with the light.


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## [email protected] (Jun 14, 2007)

The $850 are RMB, which is around $120 USD.

Well, if you got a $120 SF M, then......:wave:

I was stunned when I saw this and outraged when I see the other "products" this guys has. Knockoffs of the SF C, SF M900, etc.

As an ethnic Chinese myself, I am angered to see this happen.
I can read all the "descriptions" on the torch and I am angered even more.
Their claims are a sad reflection of their pitiful lack of knowledge about flashlights. :shakehead

If you inspect carefully on the photo of the reflector with the lamp, you can see that they probably use a different lamp assmebly and lamp setup.
On their "description" it saids that it is a Bi-Pin lamp they are using, but a lot of the things on the description is false so I am not sure if this is true or not.
What I can see is that the lamp assembly is somehow different.

Anyways, just beware of what you buy. If it looks too good to be true, then it probably is.


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## matrixshaman (Jun 14, 2007)

Based on XE.com currency conversion (major web currency site) the Chinese RMB in CNY is about $111.49 USD for 850 of the RMB. I see the retail on an M3T is $308. Surefires M900 also available there is retail $616.00 and the Chinese has them for $78.70. So from this I'm going to conclude we need to write Surefire and tell them they are overcharging for the M900's 
Seriously though that's a shame they are copying the military lights now too - especially if you consider they might end up in the hands of someone who stakes their life on real SF reliability. :shakehead


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## leukos (Jun 14, 2007)

Wow! Other than the sloppy serial number and the lamp assembly, it looks exactly like my M3T!


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## scott.cr (Jun 14, 2007)

That could easily be passed off as the real thing from an online vendor! But if you can inspect it close enough, it appears easily distinguished from the real thing.

Real Surefires are CNC machined... it would be a trivial matter for a manufacturer to use a real Surefire as a mold for knockoffs made of powdered metal. Powdered metal products come out of the oven ready for paint, they don't even need to clean up the threads...



[email protected] said:


> As an ethnic Chinese myself, I am angered to see this happen.



I feel your pain, and I can respect you for this admission, but this isn't a game about ethnicity, it's about a crooked government that allows this.


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## molite (Jun 14, 2007)

You only find free cheese in a mouse trap.

hmmm...
bipin lamps holds 18500 or 18650 I would like to inspect one of these just to see how poorly it's made.

Seriously, I can see copying the shape and color etc. But to put the Surefire name right on there. That it so wrong.


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## Cydonia (Jun 14, 2007)

I wonder how they do it? SureFire is supposed to have a zillion dollars worth of CNC machining tool stations etc., So I wonder how they are making copies like this... amazing really. In a sick sort of way you've got to hand it to these guys for their audacity and faking skills :shrug:


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## Groundhog66 (Jun 14, 2007)

Let's pass a hat and order one, we can have one of our experts check it out and do a pass around.........just curious I guess.




Tim


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## Supernam (Jun 14, 2007)

I'm not Chinese, but as an Asian, I'm ashamed!:shakehead

Could you imagine the looks on the SF customer service department employees when they receive one of these for repair!


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## 270winchester (Jun 14, 2007)

I'm sure a bunch of CPFers already organized a groupbuy and have a pre-order list.

Wow. That's some shameless copying, wow. these morons said briefly say on the web page that 's a close replicate, so that makes it okay?


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## ynggrsshppr (Jun 14, 2007)

The same seller is offering a "Samurai C2." I'd actually buy one since it's "only" about $30. It's good for a gag or two. It really is amazing how closely these knockoffs resemble the real thing. I don't know whether to be impressed or disgusted.


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## TITAN1833 (Jun 14, 2007)

If you look at the quality of ultrafire flashlights. It is not hard to see how they can clone a surefire if it can be done the Chinese will do it. surefire now need to add a sort of marking only visible under UV so that we can check if it is genuine.my 1p worth.


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## Phaserburn (Jun 14, 2007)

Not the first time this happened, nor will it be the last. Anyone else around here remember a couple of years back when clones of Eternalight Marines were kicking around?


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## nzgunnie (Jun 14, 2007)

That is interesting. There was what looked exactly like a SF m3T for sale on New Zealand's auction site, Trademe, but it said 'Surefire type' torch.

The seller was very cryptic and evasive when I tried to draw him on whether the item photographed was a real M3, and whether it was the same item he was selling etc. 

I had assumed he had photographed a real M3, but was selling something else, but now I see it is likely the item he was selling was one of these.


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## 021411 (Jun 14, 2007)

That's why I don't buy lights from auction sites (Ebay) or unknown vendors unless it's from a reputable dealer.


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## FlashKat (Jun 14, 2007)

First of all they are selling it with a DSD charger which tells you it's a fake, since Surefire does not recommend rechargeable batteries.


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## AlexGT (Jun 14, 2007)

Wow, at least their annodizing matches, LOL!


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## matrixshaman (Jun 14, 2007)

Phaserburn said:


> Not the first time this happened, nor will it be the last. Anyone else around here remember a couple of years back when clones of Eternalight Marines were kicking around?



I'd like to hear more about that. I'm suprised at that considering they were not that expensive to start with. I bought a bunch straight from Technology Associates when they had an overstock due to a buyer that had ordered a bunch and then backed out. I know for sure the ones I have are real and came straight from TA but where did these clones come from and where were they being sold?


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## LuxLuthor (Jun 15, 2007)

That is disgusting. It reminds me of the complete set of Star Trek The Next Generation "New" DVD's I bought from a USA seller on Amazon.com for about 1/3rd the normal cost. 

The box, documentation, label all had the same realistic Paramount logos, photos, copy & trademark images. I noticed some skipping with many discs, then began to look very carefully and found a few tell-tale misspelled words. DVD media Identifier confirmed the foreign source, and on protest, Amazon refunded me and went after seller.


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## knot (Jun 15, 2007)

Honestly, I couldn't afford a Surefire or any USA name brand so I welcome any Cree powered knockoff or look-alike torches (like from DX). I come here daily and "drool" over many of the lights that are beyond my reach. Would I like to have something similar in my hands? Hell yeah, it beats drooling over pictures and obviously the Chinese know this and are able to fill a market for "wannabes" 

Where there's a market, those who fill it will make a profit. Think about it. You aren't losing a customer because I would never buy a Surefire. However, I don't agree using the trade name.

How about offering some less expensive flashlights so we can all enjoy the name brand. If they can do it.........

Gerber made an affordable yet quality pocket tool. I now have one.


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## LuxLuthor (Jun 15, 2007)

knot said:


> Honestly, I couldn't afford a Surefire or any USA name brand so I welcome any Cree powered knockoff or look-alike torches (like from DX). I come here daily and "drool" over many of the lights that are beyond my reach. Would I like to have something similar in my hands? Hell yeah, it beats drooling over pictures and obviously the Chinese know this and are able to fill a market for "wannabes"
> 
> Where there's a market, those who fill it will make a profit. Think about it. You aren't losing a customer because I would never buy a Surefire. However, I don't agree using the trade name.
> 
> ...



That's like asking Ferrari to make a cheap knockoff for the masses. :kiss:


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## knot (Jun 15, 2007)

LuxLuthor said:


> That's like asking Ferrari to make a cheap knockoff for the masses. :kiss:



Gerber made a cheaper but quality tool so everyone can own a quality tool.

The tooling for a Ferrari is quite a bit different, complex, and the parts are much more expensive than bulk aluminum/titanium. Hell, the OCC chopper boys own a CNC machine. 

You ever see those A.C. Cobra kit cars? Man, they are nice! Yes, they come in different price ranges/options





Where there's a market......... If a company doesn't want to fill a market with a similar product for less, someone will.

Ok maybe I have a bias. I'm the guy that brought *well known iconist's work and Apple's Safari theme to Firefox (*then phoenix - no one that was creating for mozilla knew that one could use artwork from other artists by permission) I eventually got permission from all of the iconists creating for apple's themes. I never got a letter from apple demanding me to cease and desist and windows users were happy as well as Mac users. I was ripping icons straight out of Safari and using them then creating the ones that Firefox uses. It could be because Firefox was cross platform and my themes were used on macs as well so it wasn't a big issue. 

The fact is, there was a lot of interest in the Safari "look" at the time. There was a market niche. I knew how to create it and I had the tools. Apple wasn't going to do it. It was free advertising for apple anyway.


Bottom line: these guys should have styled it like rather than copied it. Even I didn't make clones, I tried to improve upon making variations.


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## yellow (Jun 15, 2007)

well, anyone wonder?
Everyone should be able to copy a flashlight, not?

f.e. we here in Austria dont have this much makers, that much ppl in the world know, but in China there have been spottet Motobike copies that are optically ident with the ones from KTM and they even use Ski Lifts that have "Doppelmayr" signs mounted (of course both makers didnt produce these easy to spot fakes - if You know what to look for - but imagine some heavy accident and the bad reputation the maker might get)

or here with these M3s:
waiting for the 1st posts of ppl who "have not let set their 18650 after charging" and their M3 bulbs go


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## Phaserburn (Jun 15, 2007)

matrixshaman said:


> I'd like to hear more about that. I'm suprised at that considering they were not that expensive to start with. I bought a bunch straight from Technology Associates when they had an overstock due to a buyer that had ordered a bunch and then backed out. I know for sure the ones I have are real and came straight from TA but where did these clones come from and where were they being sold?


 
This was back when the Eternalight was cutting edge technology. There is a thread archived somewhere devoted to this topic. IIRC, they were from China and attempted to duplicate the circuitry, which at the time only TA had. The thread had pics and outlined differences between the real mccoy and the knockoff. If you got yours from TA direct, you can be sure they're genuine. TA was outraged, and rightly so, over this; they were/are an "in the garage" outfit, and this was perceived as a potentially crippling blow. No one else was using the Eternalight technology at the time (if memory serves), so this was an especially crappy theft no just of external design, but the internal circuitry too.


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## matrixshaman (Jun 15, 2007)

That sucks - MrEternalight is a real nice guy and I know it is a small operation.


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## adamr999 (Jun 15, 2007)

The title states "GP R500"
http://www.lighthound.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=2032

http://www.picidc.com/space/cslgb/products/M3T/006.jpg
They're the same.


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## spoonrobot (Jun 15, 2007)

Maybe we should send this to Surefire so they could ring them up and ask how exactly they acheived such a round beam.

:green:


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## nikon (Jun 15, 2007)

I'll buy one if they accept Xeroxed currency.


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## knot (Jun 15, 2007)

I stand corrected. Surefire does make an affordable torch: the G2 Nitrolon


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## DrifT3R (Jun 18, 2007)

adamr999 said:


> The title states "GP R500"
> http://www.lighthound.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=2032
> 
> http://www.picidc.com/space/cslgb/products/M3T/006.jpg
> They're the same.



The chinese translation is "brighter than gp r500"


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## cernobila (Jun 18, 2007)

Well, this is the way of the world......well known products are now made in three or four countries and assembled in fifth. Cars are starting to look more the same rather than different.....I can’t seem to tell the difference from a Glock pistol and the number of close copies that are available from US manufacturers now. Good things are copied with only slight changes. Today manufacturers must woo the market and adapt to what customers need/want, this is why I no longer hanker for S/F lights, my vote goes to things like the W/E range, wider body, (18mm cells fit) solid, led tailcap and at a good price to boot. Today you cannot rely on just your past reputation, you must keep trying to please.......

Having said all that, I do not buy cheap stuff unless it has a rock solid reputation and is a proven product....


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## leukos (Jun 18, 2007)

nikon said:


> I'll buy one if they accept Xeroxed currency.


 
Brilliant!


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## LuxLuthor (Jun 18, 2007)

nikon said:


> I'll buy one if they accept Xeroxed currency.



North Korea can help you out with that.


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## sysadmn (Jun 18, 2007)

knot said:


> Honestly, I couldn't afford a Surefire or any USA name brand so I welcome any Cree powered knockoff or look-alike torches (like from DX).
> ...
> Where there's a market, those who fill it will make a profit. Think about it. You aren't losing a customer because I would never buy a Surefire. However, I don't agree using the trade name.


 

There's a difference between "clone" and "counterfeit"; a brand has elements beyond the name and trademark. Some of those elements might be protected by patent (Maglite's focusing technology?), and some by trademark (MagliteTM), and some by copyright (Maglite's army of lawyers suing anyone whose flashlight or packaging looks too much like a Maglite).


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## labrat (Jun 18, 2007)

LuxLuthor said:


> That's like asking Ferrari to make a cheap knockoff for the masses. :kiss:



Last winter there were heavy rumours, even referred to by official US representatives, that a Ferrari Enzo-copy had been seen in China!
So for those who can afford to wait just a little longer...


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## defusion (Jun 18, 2007)

couple years back someone made a ferrari body for a toyota MR-2.
so basically a Ferrari (something that looks like it at least) for about 30 grand.


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## Bunk3r (Jun 19, 2007)

^yep theres a company not far from me that still makes the ferrari MR2's http://www.extreme-sportscars.com/ . copying is bad enough, but when they brand things the same its even worse. we had a problem at work (Im an electronics engineer) recently where a batch of electronic components were infact blank i cut them open and there was no silicon in them, they were labelled up as a Texas Instruments device -apparently this is becoming more and more common. cant trust much these days (im not as old as that last sentence made me sound).


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## mdocod (Jun 19, 2007)

flashlights sold with unique looks under obvious knock-off names don't bother me much (*ultra/-fire etc)... but when they try to copy it so closely, that bugs the crap out of me... Thanks for the heads up Mark!


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## Tessaiga (Jun 19, 2007)

I think this thread begs the question... 

What makes a SF a SF?? is it the good fit and finish? the technology? the design? the price? or all of the above? in other words... just simply the name... Surefire...

SO... what makes a SF a SF???


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## Handlobraesing (Jun 19, 2007)

[email protected] said:


> We DESPISE people who have absolutely no respect for intellectual property.



It's pretty blatently obvious many CHINA dealers operate by traditional Chinese ethics. 

Q: What is ethical? 

A: Whatever we can get away with to take their money. Steal someone else's work and use toxic chemicals outlawed in destination country if that's what it takes to take their money. 

Supplier: Chinese IP thieves and car stereo thieves

Receiver: End users who buy them just because they're cheaper knowing they're stolen property, made from stolen property.


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## Handlobraesing (Jun 19, 2007)

matrixshaman said:


> That sucks - MrEternalight is a real nice guy and I know it is a small operation.



Would you feel the same way if you were to buy a car stereo from a "nice" guy off the streets after your family member's vehicle's stereo was stolen, then find out that despite he's a nice guy, it was the unit stolen from his car? 

Having a superficial nicety to the hands that feed him is entirely different to having an ethical business practice.


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## Handlobraesing (Jun 19, 2007)

Tessaiga said:


> I think this thread begs the question...
> 
> What makes a SF a SF?? is it the good fit and finish? the technology? the design? the price? or all of the above? in other words... just simply the name... Surefire...
> 
> SO... what makes a SF a SF???



That question is like, what makes your work of art/writing yours if I were to reproduce it on paper and ink I paid for.


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## DM51 (Jun 19, 2007)

Handlobraesing said:


> That question is like, what makes your work of art/writing yours if I were to reproduce it on paper and ink I paid for.


Actually it's completely the other way round: If you make a copy of my work of art using your own materials, is it right to pass it off as a work of art created by me?


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## yclo (Jun 19, 2007)

So when tourists go to China, they will shop for fake watches, handbags and lights?


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## defusion (Jun 19, 2007)

Tessaiga said:


> I think this thread begs the question...
> 
> What makes a SF a SF?? is it the good fit and finish? the technology? the design? the price? or all of the above? in other words... just simply the name... Surefire...
> 
> SO... what makes a SF a SF???


a surefire flashlight is a flashlight made by surefire. not much more to it then that!
the specifications you mentioned are just that, and anyone can copy them, even to the point they are exactly the same, and cost the same, but it still wouldn't be a surefire.


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## Outdoors Fanatic (Jun 19, 2007)

nikon said:


> I'll buy one if they accept Xeroxed currency.


LOL


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## Tessaiga (Jun 19, 2007)

Handlobraesing said:


> It's pretty blatently obvious many CHINA dealers operate by traditional Chinese ethics.
> 
> Q: What is ethical?
> 
> ...


 
Thieves of IP they might be, but I can assure you that is in no way traditional Chinese ethics. 

Not fair to knock around a whole civilisation or thousands of years of tradition just cos come people decide to make copies of stuff they see.

Yes, blatant disregard of IP might be rampant in China, but those are not traditional Chinese ethics. Call it what you will, but not THAT.


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## Tessaiga (Jun 19, 2007)

defusion said:


> a surefire flashlight is a flashlight made by surefire. not much more to it then that!
> the specifications you mentioned are just that, and anyone can copy them, even to the point they are exactly the same, and cost the same, but it still wouldn't be a surefire.


 
Thank you defusion


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## cernobila (Jun 19, 2007)

Does anybody know someone in Surefire in the US? Perhaps they could ask them for their opinion on this issue. I would be surprised if this would be the case, but sometimes some companies allow manufacturing under licence in other countries, a one percent chance but it should be checked out.


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## Xrunner (Jun 19, 2007)

This is a little bothersome but it’s been happening for years like previous members have mentioned. And from the pictures, you can tell it isn’t a real Surefire if you look close. All the fakes I’ve seen have at least some signs, but if I hadn’t handled or owned the ‘real’ thing I would have a much harder time telling the difference.


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## Outdoors Fanatic (Jun 20, 2007)

Xrunner said:


> This is a little bothersome but it’s been happening for years like previous members have mentioned. And from the pictures, you can tell it isn’t a real Surefire if you look close. All the fakes I’ve seen have at least some signs, but if I hadn’t handled or owned the ‘real’ thing I would have a much harder time telling the difference.


Maybe they use pics of the real thing in the ads, but when you buy the light they'll send you the crappy fake version of it... You shouldn't trust pirates and intellectual property thieves, not even their pics over the internet should be trusted.


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## Illum (Jun 20, 2007)

Personally I think surefire's prices are a bit...:thinking::shrug:

I wouldn't care if it was a clone...just don't use surefire's name for it.:shakehead

I have yet to see if someone can clone an A2 that works like an A2:nana:


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## leukos (Jun 20, 2007)

Given that we have quite a few quality folks here on CPF from China, and that it was one such member that started this thread, I vote that we tone down some of the china bashing and racist rubric here.


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## sysadmn (Aug 3, 2007)

They're baaaaack! Kaidomain is carrying a 2 mode CREE with "Surefire" and "U2" in the description. I thought it was a typo, but the pictures show Surefire and the fake A...261 serial number. 

Too bad, if it said "Superfire" and "U2 style" I'd have bought one.


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## Daniel_sk (Aug 3, 2007)

sysadmn said:


> Kaidomain is carrying a 2 mode CREE with "Surefire" and "U2" in the description.


Link please .


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## Handlobraesing (Aug 3, 2007)

Tessaiga said:


> Thieves of IP they might be, but I can assure you that is in no way traditional Chinese ethics.
> 
> Not fair to knock around a whole civilisation or thousands of years of tradition just cos come people decide to make copies of stuff they see.
> 
> Yes, blatant disregard of IP might be rampant in China, but those are not traditional Chinese ethics. Call it what you will, but not THAT.



So, if they know the problem is rampant, why isn't the government and the people of PEOPLE's Republic of China doing anything about it?


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## DM51 (Aug 3, 2007)

Handlobraesing said:


> So, if they know the problem is rampant, why isn't the government and the people of PEOPLE's Republic of China doing anything about it?


They are. They hanged a minister last month for his part in a counterfeiting scandal.


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## 1wrx7 (Aug 3, 2007)

Try searching for invisiblesight on Ebay. They have M910a weaponlight ripoffs for about $170 shipped. I asked if SF bulbs would work and if the heads are interchangeable. I was told the bulbs would work but the seller wasn't sure if the heads could be changed. Feedback from buyers say they are surprised by the quality. I'm tempted to buy one so I can do a review, I know I can't justify buying a real version.

The company I work for does "private label" of some of our valves for other companies to sell as their own. Somehow I doubt SF is doing this, but I guess anything is possible. This is the way of the world today, but I can't get over them saying Surefire on the light. It's just wrong.


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## LuxLuthor (Aug 3, 2007)

DM51 said:


> They are. They hanged a minister last month for his part in a counterfeiting scandal.



Notice how effective that was at stopping the lead paint that just showed up in the Mattel toy recalls this week. To be fair, you cannot single out China as unique in these situations. Things like this were rampant in the history of USA that led to consumer protection agencies, labor unions, government regulation, and lest we forget...the leeches of a modern democratic society--the lawyers.

You see the same thing in history (or currently) of Japan, Taiwan, Hong Kong, India, Mexico, etc. etc. If someone can make a lot more money by copying someone else's design, throwing safety & QA out the window...many will do it until steps are taken to stop it. 

Eventually the Communist Chinese dictators will realize this is doing tremendous damage to everything they are trying to build, and will start executing/imprisoning someone every few days until it stops. In some ways this is more efficient than ruining their long term goals by giving power to legal leeches. They have the benefit of seeing the final glory days of the USA, and what ruined us.


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## Lightraven (Aug 3, 2007)

The first few pictures of this light looked exactly like my M3. However, the closeup of the lamp assembly shows a brass colored ring around the lamp before the reflector begins. My real M3 has no ring--the reflector goes all the way to the lamp with no gap.


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## FredM (Aug 3, 2007)

LuxLuthor said:


> Eventually the Communist Chinese dictators will realize this is doing tremendous damage to everything they are trying to build, and will start executing/imprisoning someone every few days until it stops. In some ways this is more efficient than ruining their long term goals by giving power to legal leeches. They have the benefit of seeing the final glory days of the USA, and what ruined us.



It will stop when they come up with their own ideas. Right now they are a labor force and this is the result.

If you have little IP but large labor and industrial force then you use others IP.

If you have large IP but small/expensive labor force you sell you IP.

Blame the chinese all you want but I doubt Surefire is a huge brand name over there. Its quite obvious the west is their market and the money stream currently producing these lights. What are they supposed to do when someone sends them a light and asks for 5000 more just like it?


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## 270winchester (Aug 7, 2007)

sysadmn said:


> They're baaaaack! Kaidomain is carrying a 2 mode CREE with "Surefire" and "U2" in the description. I thought it was a typo, but the pictures show Surefire and the fake A...261 serial number.


 
amazing what an "authorized dealer" can get away these days.



> Too bad, if it said "Superfire" and "U2 style" I'd have bought one.


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## lightr07 (Aug 8, 2007)

This SureFire clone and knockoff isn't really new as said before in this post. There are plenty of SF U2 Clone's and clone's of other SF lights. I had a friend with a clone U2 once and i (as crazy as this may seem) bought him a REAL SureFire (Not a U2) and the difference was pretty noticeable. This is just one of the many reason's i dont like china. They seem to think they are the greatest thing ever created and could careless about other country's. But that could cause an Up-roar so i'll save that for the Underground. China is making or trying to make a move to cut-down on the shameful knock-off's like this one that are being made. But until then, I'll be buying in stores or from Reputable Online dealers.


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## sysadmn (Aug 8, 2007)

I can't object too strongly to clones, but counterfeits are another matter. With a clone, a consumer can decide if the Surefire is worth the additional money; with a counterfeit, the deception prevents the consumer from making a choice.


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