# Germany should start manufacturing flashlights



## ebow86 (Aug 24, 2010)

You know, I am mostly of german descent (Irish and dutch as well) and I have always taken pride in that heritage. I love how pretty much everything germany produces is of excellent quality. One can't deny that german made cars, cameras, scopes and binoculars, tools, and pretty much everything in between is pretty much the best of the best, if it says "made in germany" on it you can bet it is of the highest quality. 

It's is this that makes me wish that a german company would get into the business of producing high quality flashlights, if US company's like surefire can make the highest quality flashlights I can only dream of what a german manufactrer could do with the right resources. A german made surefire type light, how great would that be? Germany pretty much produces everything else, I am very suprised that they haven't entered the production of high end flashlights. Does anyone else dream of a german high end flashlight or am I the only one?


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## Connor (Aug 24, 2010)

I think there are a few German companies producing high quality lights. 
Lupine is known for their headlamps: http://www.lupine.de/web/de/
I'm sure you will get more examples soon.


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## ebow86 (Aug 24, 2010)

Thanks. I am anxious to see more examples, though I still wish there was a surefire type company in germany.


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## DM51 (Aug 24, 2010)

Hartenberger make top-quality Dive Lights.


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## jamesmtl514 (Aug 24, 2010)

I agree. German's take a great deal of pride in their work. 
I support N.A and European built lights. I'd get a German one if it was something that interested me.


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## jellydonut (Aug 24, 2010)

In theory I don't care where the product comes from as long as it is made with care and thought by someone who thinks and cares, and the result is good. In practice such flashlights only come from certain parts of the world currently.

It is puzzling though that nearly all flashlight manufacturers are American or Chinese with marketing aimed primarily at Americans, though. It is certainly dark over here too, so why so few manufacturers? :thinking:


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## ejot (Aug 24, 2010)

a few others brought up here.........
https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/227449


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## Locoboy5150 (Aug 24, 2010)

The electric trains that I collect/operate, L.G.B., are made in Nuremberg, Germany or at least they were for many years before they shifted production to China and now Hungary. All of mine are the older production models that were from Nuremberg though and they are all tip top in terms of quality. They're not what most people would consider "cheap" though, so quality certainly does have its price. That quality is certainly noticeable though, both in operation and in feel. When you pick up an L.G.B. locomotive, it just *feels* like quality.

I agree that a German built flashlight would be really cool, but it probably wouldn't be on the lower end of the price spectrum.


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## RocketTomato (Aug 24, 2010)

If you have around $700 to spend, check out these guys for some high end German lights, Lupine Lightning.


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## AMD64Blondie (Aug 24, 2010)

I know this might sound wacky..but if Meindl(They're a German company) were to start making lights..eek!!
(They make hiking boots,and I have a pair that I've abused for over 6 months and they still look fairly new.)


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## nfetterly (Aug 24, 2010)

RocketTomato said:


> If you have around $700 to spend, check out these guys for some high end German lights, Lupine Lightning.



Yikes! I hate when someone on CPF directs me to something "cool" - it always ends up costing me $$. Great Stuff!


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## CKOD (Aug 25, 2010)

You can buy kits from der wichtel, and convert your own


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## wacbzz (Aug 25, 2010)

What about German "engineered?"

http://www.flash-lights.com/index.php/cat/c1193_Coast-LED-Lenser-Items.html


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## funkymonkey1111 (Aug 25, 2010)

I have to say I couldn't give two craps about the prospect of a German light.


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## DM51 (Aug 25, 2010)

funkymonkey1111 said:


> I have to say I couldn't give two craps about the prospect of a German light.


funkymonkey1111... I'm sure you'll be interested to hear that your occasional contributions here have been noticed, albeit for the wrong reasons. This one is unfortunately typical; it is wholly unnecessary, and quite rude. What on earth was the point of it, if not to annoy people?

Please take a short break from CPF and ponder that question. Don't bother to return until you have learned how to behave in a more civilised manner.


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## easilyled (Aug 25, 2010)

Isn't Ledlenser of German origin (Zweibruder)?

They are certainly not considered to be brand leaders in terms of quality or innovation here on CPF as far as I understand.

I would certainly like it if other German Companies stepped up to the plate, or indeed manufacturers from any other country for that matter. 

The more, the better, as far as I am concerned.

I think in general its more productive to judge a flashlight on its merits than from where it was manufactured though.


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## derpilgerer (Aug 25, 2010)

LED Lenser produce their lights in China. Only the marketing is nice ;-)

http://www.zweibrueder.com/ENG/unternehmen/firmenphilosophie.php?id=philo


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## lightplay22 (Aug 25, 2010)

I have several power tools that are made in Germany and the quality control and engineering are definitely top of the line. The price paid most definitely reflects the obvious pride and expertise of these products. Bottom line--German engineering/manufacturing is tops.

If they make a light I needed(ha ha) or could use or if it was just pretty, I'd be on it for sure.


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## wacbzz (Aug 25, 2010)

lightplay22 said:


> I have several power tools that are made in Germany and the quality control and engineering are definitely top of the line. The price paid most definitely reflects the obvious pride and expertise of these products. Bottom line--German engineering/manufacturing is tops.
> 
> If they make a light I needed(ha ha) or could use or if it was just pretty, I'd be on it for sure.



Slightly off topic, but I haven't had any German power tools, but I did once trade a German guy that was working on the same job as me a flashlight for an adjustable wrench. It was long before I ever knew what a good flashlight was and that wrench felt hella good in the hand - better than the klein that I was using at the time - so it was a great trade for me.


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## easilyled (Aug 25, 2010)

derpilgerer said:


> LED Lenser produce their lights in China. Only the marketing is nice ;-)
> 
> http://www.zweibrueder.com/ENG/unternehmen/firmenphilosophie.php?id=philo



They may produce them there, but the founders were German and their offices are in Solingen in Germany. So I'd still regard it as a German company. 

Moreover, it is not the quality of the build/machining (that takes place in China) that is contentious. In fact that is rather good.

It is the design that has been questioned more. I don't know if its still applicable, but in the past Ledlenser lights have not been remotely water-resistant and they have also used inefficient battery configurations like 3 AAAs very commonly.

So, apparently German designers have not designed as well as they might have. :shrug:


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## Locoboy5150 (Aug 25, 2010)

wacbzz said:


> Slightly off topic, but I haven't had any German power tools, but I did once trade a German guy that was working on the same job as me a flashlight for an adjustable wrench.



I'm *always* using hand tools and thus I'm always shopping for new ones. What was the brand name and model of this German adjustable wrench that you like so much?


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## Cesiumsponge (Aug 25, 2010)

Not to be a downer, but it's silly to paint a country with positive stereotypes. It's just as impulsive as painting negative stereotypes. There are good companies and bad companies and it should be based off the company, not the sum of the people living inside a geopolitical border. Everyone complains about China but 100% of us are using computers where the majority was manufactured in China. 

Last time I looked at Audi and Mercedes, they were plagued with reliability problems and expensive parts and service that requires bringing it to the stealership. Conversely, Porsche is ranked very high on Consumer Reports so there are always products that cover both spectrums.



Locoboy5150 said:


> I'm *always* using hand tools and thus I'm always shopping for new ones. What was the brand name and model of this German adjustable wrench that you like so much?



Knipex is the only German company that comes to my mind that makes a wide range of hand tools available at box stores (I think Home Depot). Some of them work great but some seem clumsy. Wiha is another German company but they make hand tools specifically for fasteners, similar to Bondhus or Eklind.


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## 350xfire (Aug 25, 2010)

German light... with Chinese electronics! Lookint at some of those pictures, SSCP7 and SSTs.


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## Connor (Aug 25, 2010)

350xfire said:


> German light... with Chinese electronics! Lookint at some of those pictures, SSCP7 and SSTs.



SSC isn't Chinese, it's a South-Korean company (Seoul Semiconductor Co., Ltd). 
Also there are some German LEDs too .. e.g. the Osram Golden Dragons. Henry from HDS uses them in the EDC 170 clickies, so they can't be all that bad, I guess. :nana:


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## ejot (Aug 25, 2010)

Locoboy5150 said:


> I'm *always* using hand tools and thus I'm always shopping for new ones. What was the brand name and model of this German adjustable wrench that you like so much?



My own $0.02 (I'm not the one who mentioned the wrench originally):
Stahlwille is certainly one of the "Rolls-Royces" of German hand tools. I spent a couple years in Austria wrenching on automated industrial equipment and these were my favorite. Even like them over S&K or Snap-On. oo:

edit: I forgot this was in flashlight discussion and not the Cafe, sorry for continuing the OT.


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## lightplay22 (Aug 26, 2010)

Knipex "cobra" pliers, sort of like channel locks but work much better, are about the only hand tools I use (have several sizes). Festool and Fein are the power tools.

I guess I'm guilty of the stereotype and do realize that all this stuff is made by human beings and is subject to faults no matter where its made. What few tools I use have shown me that the German companies of which I own their products, pay a high degree of attention to details and precision.

I am attracted to just about anything precision machined and finished and works properly and shines light out the end of it.

I EDC Henry's products, muyshondt, surefire,nitecore,and 47's and think they are all very well designed and manufactured.... Happy with them all!


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## GarageBoy (Aug 26, 2010)

Cesiumsponge said:


> Not to be a downer, but it's silly to paint a country with positive stereotypes. It's just as impulsive as painting negative stereotypes. There are good companies and bad companies and it should be based off the company, not the sum of the people living inside a geopolitical border. Everyone complains about China but 100% of us are using computers where the majority was manufactured in China.
> 
> Last time I looked at Audi and Mercedes, they were plagued with reliability problems and expensive parts and service that requires bringing it to the stealership. Conversely, Porsche is ranked very high on Consumer Reports so there are always products that cover both spectrums.


I agree
Lots of guys on car forums complaining about electrical issues on BMWs/MB/Audi
To me, some German engineering results in a solution for a problem no one asked. (for the sake of innovation)

On the other hand, I do think German craftsmanship can be VERY good, though I have used many cheap East German products that feel like they were made at gun point.


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## romteb (Aug 26, 2010)

Cesiumsponge said:


> Not to be a downer, but it's silly to paint a country with positive stereotypes. It's just as impulsive as painting negative stereotypes.



Very true, although...Germany after having succesfully funelled it's war inherited fantastic production capacities toward civilian use and unlike other european countries having constantly promoted and supported an industrial and production oriented economy (based on the model of Rhineland Capitalism) allowed it to keep it's momentum (thanks in great part to a number social reforms) till today making it the world N°1 exporter and champion of high end products manufacturing expertise.

One of the other major differences with other european countries being that the Manual/technical branch of education is highly regarded and promoted in Germany while only those who fail in the (strangely considered more noble) general branch follow these studies elsewhere in europe.


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## Tally-ho (Aug 26, 2010)

romteb said:


> Very true, although...Germany after having succesfully funelled it's war inherited fantastic production capacities toward civilian use and unlike other european countries having constantly promoted and supported an industrial and production oriented economy (based on the model of Rhineland Capitalism) allowed it to keep it's momentum (thanks in great part to a number social reforms) till today making it the world N°1 exporter and champion of high end products manufacturing expertise.


Japan achieved to be its main "quality-competitor" in a few decades.


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## Flying Turtle (Aug 26, 2010)

Based on my last experience with a German made product ('85 Jetta GLI), any flashlights would perform great, but the lens would fall out, the switch boot would crack, and the anodizing would flake off. I hope they're better now.

Geoff


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## Cesiumsponge (Aug 26, 2010)

Pulling it back on topic, I had no idea the Osram Golden Dragon was German. "Golden Dragon" sounds like a cheesy name an asian company would use and I made an assumption 

So, if Germany has semiconductor manufacturing capabilities, is it actually possible to make a 100% German light from tailcap to lens? Glasswise, they have Schott AG. and Schmidt & Bender, Zeiss. I have the Osram in my HDS clicky and it's fantastic. So what else...batteries, SMD components, and PCB? Those are usually asian-sourced.

This also makes me curious if the USA can manufacture a 100% US-made light. I don't think most of the electrical components are being made state-side, but I know there are a lot of US component companies. Do we even make LEDs?

As an addition to the above parallel discussion, I don't think its possible to A/B countries directly and many factors will color a person's opinion based on personal experience or cherry-picked data out there. From my specific background knowledge in manufacturing, Japan is leading Germany. We've been upgrading the CNC turning centers at my company over the last few years with nothing but Mori Seiki after comparing the competition, and we do a lot of aerospace work. Most of the impressive manufacturing technology I've seen is currently coming out of Japan, but this is a very specific example.


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## Connor (Aug 26, 2010)

Cesiumsponge said:


> Pulling it back on topic, I had no idea the Osram Golden Dragon was German. "Golden Dragon" sounds like a cheesy name an asian company would use and I made an assumption



Osram is indeed a German company (part of Siemens). Well, guess what I found in the company profile of OSRAM Opto Semiconductors:

"With its headquarters in Regensburg (Germany), Sunnyvale (USA) for North America and Hong Kong for Asia, production sites in Regensburg (Germany) and Penang (Malaysia) and a global network of sales and marketing centers, OSRAM Opto Semiconductors is in an excellent position to meet the challenges faced by a global high-tech company."

I guess with companies of this size, you will rarely find one that's not a global player in terms of production, too.


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## Locoboy5150 (Aug 27, 2010)

Cesiumsponge said:


> I don't think most of the electrical components are being made state-side, but I know there are a lot of US component companies. Do we even make LEDs?



I thought that the LumiLEDs Luxeon Rebel emitter was made in the USA and it is used in Mag Instruments product. They proudly state that they are a USA manufacturer and in one news story they said that the only non-USA made part in a Maglite is one O-ring. Maybe I didn't hear that right though as it has been a while since I saw that story online.


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## kengps (Aug 27, 2010)

Being that flashlights are electrical/electronic I wouldn't want any made in Germany. I love my BMW M5, but the electronics are a nightmare compared to Japanese cars. If the japanese could build a car that handles like a BMW I'd buy it. Even high-end optics (the $500K kind) are a problem because of the electronics. I chose a $550K Leica over a $300K Zeiss about 10 years ago because of electronic issues and shutter problems. My competition has been sitting on their hands for up to 8 months at a time waiting on the repair of their Zeiss. My Leica just keeps on snapping pictures.

EDIT Just remembered my Porsche 911 problems. It was electricals......Some still breeding, WW II, Gremlins?


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## jellydonut (Aug 27, 2010)

Doesn't both Cree and Luminus maintain fabs in NC and MA respectively?


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## kengps (Aug 27, 2010)

Cesiumsponge said:


> This also makes me curious if the USA can manufacture a 100% US-made light. I don't think most of the electrical components are being made state-side, but I know there are a lot of US component companies. Do we even make LEDs?


Ever heard of CREE ?


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## kengps (Aug 27, 2010)

But why can't I find a good supplier of Cree LED's in the USA? I have to order them from Australia or China.


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## Locoboy5150 (Aug 27, 2010)

kengps said:


> f the japanese could build a car that handles like a BMW I'd buy it.



Does the Lexus IS F count? I'm not that familiar with it since it's way out of my price range.


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## Cesiumsponge (Aug 27, 2010)

kengps said:


> Even high-end optics (the $500K kind) are a problem because of the electronics. I chose a $550K Leica over a $300K Zeiss about 10 years ago because of electronic issues and shutter problems. My competition has been sitting on their hands for up to 8 months at a time waiting on the repair of their Zeiss. My Leica just keeps on snapping pictures.



Leica is also a German company, and the Leica you listed is almost twice as expensive as the Carl Zeiss so I'm a bit confused at the comparison. What do they make in that price range...some sort of telescope? 

One reason I actually chose US Optics over Schmidt & Bender, Kahles, or Zeiss for a riflescope is the fact I can get great customer support. I've heard CS can be drawn out dealing with foreign countries in general but I'm sure a lot of that has to do with distance and establishing enough resources to run customer support in other countries.

Lexus has been doing wacky stuff lately. They're finally getting into the performance game after establishing themselves as a luxury marque. They went form their flagship LS460L (which is a fantastic luxury car) roughly in the $90k's to...their LFA supercar which is $375k! No entry-level supercars...jumped straight into the mid/high-end supercars. They even ran commercials for it! I've never seen any car company run commercials for their vehicles that cost six figures. What demographic are they after? I don't think normal folks are going "I think I'll but an LFA" after seeing an ad on TV and I don't think the folks that can afford it watch TV.


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## kengps (Aug 28, 2010)

Cesiumsponge said:


> Leica is also a German company, and the Leica you listed is almost twice as expensive as the Carl Zeiss so I'm a bit confused at the comparison. What do they make in that price range...some sort of telescope?


 
The camera I bought was a Leica branded camera, but built by Wild Heerbrug, A swiss company. (Leica merged Wild into the Leica brand. I wasn't aware Leica was German) I paid nearly twice as much for the Leica/Wild because of some electronic issues I wasn't happy with about the way the Zeiss worked. They were comparable competing systems despite the difference in price. Later on the companies who bought them started having failures. They are Aerial Mapping cameras. Leica RC30 and Zeiss RMK Top.


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## kengps (Aug 28, 2010)

Locoboy5150 said:


> Does the Lexus IS F count? I'm not that familiar with it since it's way out of my price range.


 
No. The Lexus's numbers look better on paper, But on a road course track the BMW M3 blew the Lexus away by 3-4 seconds a lap. It was huge. There just isn't anything that handles like a BMW in a production car you can buy at a local dealer. A japanese car I can get into and drive it right away, work the navigation system, sound system, etc. The M5 I had to read the book and even then it is so counter-intuitive I forget how to do it after a month or so. Lots of computer glitches, failed electric components, etc.


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## koala (Aug 28, 2010)

I bet some one at Audi headlamp design has a huge potential.


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## Cesiumsponge (Aug 28, 2010)

kengps said:


> The camera I bought was a Leica branded camera, but built by Wild Heerbrug, A swiss company. (Leica merged Wild into the Leica brand. I wasn't aware Leica was German) I paid nearly twice as much for the Leica/Wild because of some electronic issues I wasn't happy with about the way the Zeiss worked. They were comparable competing systems despite the difference in price. Later on the companies who bought them started having failures. They are Aerial Mapping cameras. Leica RC30 and Zeiss RMK Top.


Neato. Its possible Leica is a multi-national company now after buying up multiple companies but their HQ is still in Germany last I recall. I was considering their Geovid line of integrated binoculars/laser rangefinders. They cost a pretty penny, but nothing like that aerial mapping setup! I don't recall ever really hearing complaints about the quality of German glass but the electronics issue seems to be a reoccurring theme.



kengps said:


> No. The Lexus's numbers look better on paper, But on a road course track the BMW M3 blew the Lexus away by 3-4 seconds a lap. It was huge. There just isn't anything that handles like a BMW in a production car you can buy at a local dealer. A japanese car I can get into and drive it right away, work the navigation system, sound system, etc. The M5 I had to read the book and even then it is so counter-intuitive I forget how to do it after a month or so. Lots of computer glitches, failed electric components, etc.


There is a list of Nurburgring Nordschleife lap times for production cars floating around. That track is a good indicator of overall handling. Of course, the times were compiled by different drivers in different years under different weather but it's better than blind guesses. I'm actually surprised to see the Corvette Z01 is still up there and hanging with the Ferrari Enzo and posted a faster lap time than anything Porsche, Lamborghini, or Koenigsegg has to offer...bargain of the century (it's still an ugly fiberglass box:nana. I'm a big fan of affordable roadsters you can bring into SCCA or HPDE though so I guess my knowledge of more expensive automobiles has been stunted for a while now.

Wiki happens to have one which seems to be the same list I've seen elsewhere on car forums: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/N%C3%BCrburgring_lap_times


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## kengps (Aug 28, 2010)

Thats a real horsepower track though. Not the best for rewarding well handling cars like a 2 mile road course will. I'm not familiar with HPDE. Was many years ago when I drove an ITS class car in SCCA.

Yep, German glass is good. Both East and West Germany built Zeiss cameras under the names Carl Zeiss (West) and Zeiss Jena (East). Both had electronics problems. Some Jena cameras got returned to the factory after a years worth of warranty work and it still wouldn't run right. I heard the glass was really nice on those. The companies merged after the re-unification of Germany. The Wild RC30 line was/is the state-of-the-art mapping camera. They stopped making them in 2007, and made no changes after the "S" lens of 1996 or so. The lens is theoretically perfect. USGS cannot measure the distortion it is so minor. 0-1 micron range. In an aerial photo taken at 6000' above ground, the negative covers a square 9000' across. At that scale, on the ground, the displacement of an object in view would be .25 inches from it's true position. I hear they take over 2 years to cool the glass down a degree or two a day when it's manufactured. Thats why they cost a half million bucks each.


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## DM51 (Aug 28, 2010)

That is quite enough with the discussion of random non-flashight items. The name of this sub-forum is General *Flashlight* Discussion. Back on topic, please...


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## AILL (Aug 28, 2010)

Made in Germany, made in Italy, made in Spain, made in Sweden, made in Austria... and so on...

WHO CARES?

Austrians care *a little bit* for Austrian products, Germans for German products and so on...

Western and northern Europe countries have vast industries and immense knowledge, eastern and southern Europe countries are approaching very fast.

Believe me, wherever you buy in Europe - you get quality - or not. (and I suppose the same in the U.S.)

It depends on the company that assures the quality - not on the country.

For this reason we have quality assurance systems (ISO 9001...) here.
We measure quality. 

Andreas


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## kengps (Aug 28, 2010)

AILL said:


> It depends on the company that assures the quality - not on the country.
> 
> For this reason we have quality assurance systems (ISO 9001...) here.
> We measure quality.


 
It does indeed ultimately come down to the company, and the people designing, building, and selling the flashlight. ISO 9001 means nothing. It's paperwork, nothing more. I have seen many poor examples in my line of work, of companies with the certifications who deliver crap products.


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## Cesiumsponge (Aug 29, 2010)

I'm not aware of any flashlight companies that specifically advertise themselves as an ISO company. A product should speak for itself, not marketing jargon. Things like "aircraft grade aluminum" really bug the heck out of me when I see commercial consumer product companies advertise that..as opposed to "pot metal grade 6061-T6 aluminum alloy"? I think seeing a company push that they are ISO compliant would draw the same ire. I agree with the above comment. ISO is a nice bonus that should generally give you a product that is more consistent, but it doesn't guarantee anything because it depends on how the company wrote up their procedure and how well they implement it. 

ISO is mostly red tape. Our company obtained ISO and AS certifications (AS is stricter than ISO, specifically for aerospace). In fact, we've had perfect scores with our ISO audits but we've been doing things almost identically before we even went ISO so procedures didn't really change...we weren't sloppy to begin but now we have more paperwork and procedural documents to keep track of.

On the other hand, several of our vendors and customers are also ISO and its SCARY what we see...enough that I don't ever really want to fly in a commercial jetliner again. Depending on who wrote up the company's ISO policy, audits could be just once a year...which means the company only needs to follow their procedure when they're being audited, then slack off again when they've passed inspection.


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## hurricane (Aug 29, 2010)

Couldn't agree more. I would prefer to have one beautifully designed and manufactured object than to have many cheaply manufactured objects. We as humans consume waaay too much cheap crap that breaks and cannot be repaired. Germany is no doubt known for its quality and workmanship: Leica, Hazet, Stahlwille, Carl Zeiss, Porsche, Benz ... it's a very long list. As a culture, they're perfectionists, which I admire. You can really see this 'cultural perfectionism' in things like construction: in NA, buildings are generally slapped together just barely meeting minimum code. In Germany, everything is tight and beautifully made. Even things like wiring and plumbing that you'll never see are rigorously and neatly installed. I'd even go one step further to say that most of Europe produces fine stuff [France, Switzerland etc]. There is also a lot of great stuff coming out of the US as well - tools, lights, knives to name a brief few. I look forward to the day when I get my hands on a Lupine ... so so sweet.


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## GarageBoy (Aug 29, 2010)

Zeiss glass blanks are made by Schott 
Leica cameras and Leica Geosystems are now two different companies


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## kosPap (Aug 29, 2010)

a bit on that....there is a company (the names eludes me) that Did made tactical flashlights.....

Compared to SF they were better made.....
Honestly....More solid, TRIPLE o-rings fore and aft, and the tailcap switch was locked with a crush washer (?)

But soon enough they remodeled their lights and moved production to china....

edit: seems I have repeated myself


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## etc (Aug 29, 2010)

*I hope not*

If it's anything like my BMW, it will have 12 modes, flood to spot zoom feature, messages in morse code flash available, plus the flashlight will have a sensor announcing temperature rise which will eventually fail and let the module overheat, blowing it up. Replacement will cost $500 and no one will know how to fix it unless you take it to a certified center.

I will stick with Mog-lites and good old Chebby and Dodges... Malkoff is OK too since it's a domestic product.


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## CKOD (Aug 29, 2010)

etc said:


> *I hope not*
> 
> If it's anything like my BMW, it will have 12 modes, flood to spot zoom feature, messages in morse code flash available, plus the flashlight will have a sensor announcing temperature rise which will eventually fail and let the module overheat, blowing it up. Replacement will cost $500 and no one will know how to fix it unless you take it to a certified center.
> 
> I will stick with Mog-lites and good old Chebby and Dodges... Malkoff is OK too since it's a domestic product.


 
guess domestics are ok since we dont have to worry about interiors on flashlights?


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## kengps (Aug 29, 2010)

I'd love to have a German made flashlight with "i Drive" joystick mode selector.


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## civic77 (Aug 30, 2010)

Kengps, just curious if you hate idrive as much as all the car magazine editors? Heard the very latest versions were getting better and more intuitive. Which version M5 do you have?? 

Also, you ever check out the Infiniti M56? Not as fast as latest V10 M5 but matches 550i or the V8 M5 but they seem like the only real enthusist Japanese luxury company.


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## kengps (Aug 30, 2010)

Mine is the previous 400 HP M5. It doesn't have i Drive, but has in-dash GPS and all the functions (sound, Air, MPG computer, Alarm, and 20 other things) are accessed on the screen. It is a nightmare to navigate. Not intuitive at all. Never tried an infiniti. I would like a fine handling Japanese sport sedan. BMW just "has it" as far as handling goes. The average American driver would never notice, But I'm not an average American driver. Ex-Racer. I have tried on-screen programs in Japanese cars and find them to be easily used with no instruction whatsoever. Ummmm....that's why I don't want a German Flashlight. :naughty:


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## civic77 (Aug 30, 2010)

Sweet ride, that's probably my favorite BMW right there. Used to be a big BMW fan but new ones are too high tech with all the electrical nannies and overweight plus imo the styling has gone downhill. I like Audi's Benz's and Infiniti now more.

Back on topic, I agree that it shouldn't matter where its country of origin is as long as the company makes quality products. I thought the same thing about complexity when I saw this thread. Germans have great engineering expertise but based on the reliability of their automobiles I might be a little hesitant to purchase until I am convinced of no electrical gremlins or overly complex interfaces. But if a German company wanted to (hint, hint) I'm sure they could produce a great light that could go head to head with Malkoff, HDS and Surefire, at a price that I could afford ($50-150).


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## kengps (Aug 30, 2010)

I don't care for the Bangle Butt of the new ones myself. Maybe an M6 is in my future. The interior is too fad-ish for me though. 

Would be interesting to see some German Glass optic in a flashlight.


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## kosPap (Aug 30, 2010)

etc said:


> *I hope not*
> 
> If it's anything like my BMW, ...snip snip....


 
Have you guys checkked the BMW flashlights? did for a friend taht has a GS bike....

They are rebraned Inovas


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## DM51 (Aug 30, 2010)

civic77 said:


> Kengps, just curious if you hate idrive as much as all the car magazine editors? Heard the very latest versions were getting better and more intuitive. Which version M5 do you have??
> 
> Also, you ever check out the Infiniti M56? Not as fast as latest V10 M5 but matches 550i or the V8 M5 but they seem like the only real enthusist Japanese luxury company.





kengps said:


> Mine is the previous 400 HP M5. It doesn't have i Drive, but has in-dash GPS and all the functions (sound, Air, MPG computer, Alarm, and 20 other things) are accessed on the screen. It is a nightmare to navigate. Not intuitive at all. Never tried an infiniti. I would like a fine handling Japanese sport sedan. BMW just "has it" as far as handling goes. The average American driver would never notice, But I'm not an average American driver. Ex-Racer. I have tried on-screen programs in Japanese cars and find them to be easily used with no instruction whatsoever.





civic77 said:


> Sweet ride, that's probably my favorite BMW right there. Used to be a big BMW fan but new ones are too high tech with all the electrical nannies and overweight plus imo the styling has gone downhill. I like Audi's Benz's and Infiniti now more.


 
Did either of you two bother to read my post #45, which is only only 10 posts before these 'contributions' of yours? Do you have short memories, or an inability to concentrate on the thread topic? Here is the post again; this time, *READ IT* and *COMPLY*, or this thread will be closed. 



DM51 said:


> That is quite enough with the discussion of random non-flashlight items. The name of this sub-forum is General *Flashlight* Discussion. Back on topic, please...


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## Illum (Apr 18, 2012)

Cesiumsponge said:


> We've been upgrading the CNC turning centers at my company over the last few years with nothing but Mori Seiki after comparing the competition, and we do a lot of aerospace work.



Mori Seiki huh, never heard of it, I take it its a fancy CNC company out of Japan as well?


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## ev13wt (Apr 19, 2012)

I'm German, grew up in California and have a lathe.   

Maybe I should start a company!

PCB design and soldering, no problem. Idea for virtually indestructable clicky switch, no problem. I have no idea how to use that lathe though. Funds to start a company, aw damn it... 

Nice to dream though.


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## davyro (Apr 23, 2012)

kengps said:


> Being that flashlights are electrical/electronic I wouldn't want any made in Germany. I love my BMW M5, but the electronics are a nightmare compared to Japanese cars. If the japanese could build a car that handles like a BMW I'd buy it. Even high-end optics (the $500K kind) are a problem because of the electronics. I chose a $550K Leica over a $300K Zeiss about 10 years ago because of electronic issues and shutter problems. My competition has been sitting on their hands for up to 8 months at a time waiting on the repair of their Zeiss. My Leica just keeps on snapping pictures.
> 
> EDIT Just remembered my Porsche 911 problems. It was electricals......Some still breeding, WW II, Gremlins?



Why don't you have a go of a Nissan GTR or many other beasts that are glued to the ground from the various Japanese car builders.The Japanese have a philosophy of continuous improvement & they certainly deliver


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## Tana (Apr 25, 2012)

Wouldn't mind seeing a German-made flashlight... but seeing, that's it... I'm quite happy with US made Surefire's...

And I'll stick with German-made vehicles...


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## e1sbaer (Apr 25, 2012)

Tana said:


> Wouldn't mind seeing a German-made flashlight... but seeing, that's it... I'm quite happy with US made Surefire's...
> And I'll stick with German-made vehicles...


I would have agreed if I hadn't stranded last sunday with my audi before a traffic light. Automatic gearbox stuck in park because of dsg ecu failure. The rest of it is good quality though


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## Tana (Apr 25, 2012)

e1sbaer said:


> I would have agreed if I hadn't stranded last sunday with my audi before a traffic light. Automatic gearbox stuck in park because of dsg ecu failure. The rest of it is good quality though



Automatic ??? What's that ???


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## ev13wt (Apr 26, 2012)

Tana said:


> Automatic ??? What's that ???



Yea really. That is like a light that chooses levels for you.


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## välineurheilija (Apr 26, 2012)

ev13wt said:


> Yea really. That is like a light that chooses levels for you.


LOL


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## csshih (Apr 26, 2012)

ev13wt said:


> Yea really. That is like a light that chooses levels for you.



hey, the reflex 1 flashlight wasn't that bad. I just didn't like the pwm.

Craig


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## e1sbaer (Apr 26, 2012)

ev13wt said:


> Yea really. That is like a light that chooses levels for you.


Don't give them any ideas.


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## ev13wt (Apr 26, 2012)

e1sbaer said:


> Don't give them any ideas.





I've been designing lights for the last couple of days in my head and noob like on paper.  Many ideas for cool stuff (or so I think), but ze German ist quieeett about ze ideas, jaaaa.


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