# Li-ion to jump start a car?



## Canuke (May 18, 2014)

*The new lithium-ion jumpstarters*

Recently, lithium-ion based car jumpstart units have been hitting the market. http://www.cnet.com/news/pocket-sized-jump-starters/ In addition to these three units, there is also the AntiGravity Batteries Micro Start XP-1, and by now possibly more.

I have one of these, the PowerAll. I haven't risked a teardown, but I can measure the voltage from the 12V jumpstart terminals, and judging from the voltages I find there, these units are using 3.7V LiIon chemistry. The fully charged voltage is 12.6V, exactly 3x4.2V, whereas 4x LifePO4 fully charged would come in at 4x3.6 = 14.4V.... so these are not A123 based.

So are these probably using IMR type cells? Based on reports from users so far, the PowerAll can easily jumpstart 15-20 vehicles on one charge with no ill effects, so whatever's in these can do 200-400A bursts.


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## ShineOnYouCrazyDiamond (May 18, 2014)

*Re: The new lithium-ion jumpstarters*

Based on that burst ability, the information in the link and the size/shape of the units I would say it is using Lithium Polymer packs. Thin flat and long and they can typically put of 50C continuous / 100C bursts. My only concern would be leaving them in a hot car in the summer. Max temp of the packs is 140* and with summer heat I would be concerned about a cell puffing in that heat. Taking that into account it's still a cool item.


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## StorminMatt (May 18, 2014)

*Re: The new lithium-ion jumpstarters*



ShineOnYouCrazyDiamond said:


> Based on that burst ability, the information in the link and the size/shape of the units I would say it is using Lithium Polymer packs.



Definitely. It seems like there is a general trend these days toward LiPos and away from cylindrical cells (like 18650s). And with the possible exception of LiFePO4 batteries, I can't see a jumper box using cylindrical cells. 3.7V cells DO seem somewhat awkward, since they don't really produce the best possible voltage for something like a jumper box.


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## Canuke (May 18, 2014)

*Re: The new lithium-ion jumpstarters*



ShineOnYouCrazyDiamond said:


> Max temp of the packs is 140* and with summer heat I would be concerned about a cell puffing in that heat. Taking that into account it's still a cool item.



Seeing as I live in Las Vegas, that's good to know


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## ShineOnYouCrazyDiamond (May 18, 2014)

*Re: The new lithium-ion jumpstarters*



StorminMatt said:


> Definitely. It seems like there is a general trend these days toward LiPos and away from cylindrical cells (like 18650s). And with the possible exception of LiFePO4 batteries, I can't see a jumper box using cylindrical cells. 3.7V cells DO seem somewhat awkward, since they don't really produce the best possible voltage for something like a jumper box.



It may seem awkward to use that voltage, but I've measured the voltage of a fews cars while starting them when I had batteries going dead. Under start load I've measure in the low 10V range. As long as the charger can maintain at least 3.4ish volts under load it should be able to start the car. Question is how many starts it can handle in the long-run before the battery starts to degrade and can't hold voltage under load.


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## Timothybil (May 18, 2014)

*Re: The new lithium-ion jumpstarters*

Yeah, but unless one goes around looking for someone to jump, how many times is it actually going to get used? My Chevy is 14 years old, and outside of one time when the battery died of old age, I have never had to jump it, and have only jumped someone else about five times. And that was only because my son's car had some weird problem with the wiring.


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## ShineOnYouCrazyDiamond (May 19, 2014)

*Re: The new lithium-ion jumpstarters*

I completely agree. It's feeding off of peoples paranoia.


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## Timothybil (May 19, 2014)

*Re: The new lithium-ion jumpstarters*

I will admit I had to jump my Chevy Lumina van a few times because the kids left one of the dome lights turned on, but I got smart and bought an automatic cut-off switch for the battery. If the voltage drops to far on the battery, or if the switch is smart enough to sense that something is left on, it will cut the battery out of the circuit to keep it from being run down. I think some of the newer ones will actually still pass a few milliamps to keep the engine computer and the radio programed, but not pass enough to let the battery drain.


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## ShineOnYouCrazyDiamond (May 19, 2014)

*Re: The new lithium-ion jumpstarters*

My big thing (and problem) with the few times I've had a battery completely drain on me - one time I didn't close the trunk completely on a car when I went away on vacation for a full week - is that even if you can jump the battery it'll never be the same again. The deep discharge really kills these car batteries and you will likely end up replacing it anyways. So there are two scenarios where you will need a charger/jumper:
1) Car battery fully drains either through electrical fault or user error.
2) The battery is getting old and can't hold a good charge needing a charge once in a while.
In either scenario you will need to jump maybe a few times and will end up buying a replacement battery anyway.


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## Canuke (May 20, 2014)

*Re: The new lithium-ion jumpstarters*



ShineOnYouCrazyDiamond said:


> I completely agree. It's feeding off of peoples paranoia.



That, and the profit margin on these things is huge. The batteries are the biggest cost item by far; the rest is just off-the-shelf buck converters and cabling. That's why everybody and his brother has a battery pack these days, and why their sale prices are 50-90% off when that happens... it's just like the women's clothing market.

At least the "car jumpstarter" ones are probably more robust than the USB-only ones, for the manufacturers who make the effort to live up to advertised spec.


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## PhillyRube (Dec 25, 2014)

*Battery Jumpstarters*

Battery question, has anyone used these things to start a car?

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00KCD05Y6/?tag=cpf0b6-20

Just curious how they work compared to the SLA packs out there. May be something to throw in my motorcycle saddlebag.


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## Lynx_Arc (Dec 25, 2014)

*Re: Battery Jumpstarters*



PhillyRube said:


> Battery question, has anyone used these things to start a car?
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00KCD05Y6/?tag=cpf0b6-20
> 
> Just curious how they work compared to the SLA packs out there. May be something to throw in my motorcycle saddlebag.


Depending on the accuracy of the claimed capacity and the output of them (wire thickness) they should do fine as many of the car jump start packs use a 12v 12AH SLA battery. I think the difference may be however in the amount of "on demand" current that can be delivered at the moment of cranking the motor. If the battery in the vehicle is just low and can take a charge then it should work fine as it can charge up the original battery some and both batteries together can deliver the required cranking current. A motorcycle most likely takes a fraction of the starting current of a standard auto so a smaller starting battery would do fine. I think some people at one time were using Nicad packs to help start cars as they can deliver a lot of current. Battery size isn't always a determiner of starting current capacity but rather battery chemistry as lithium ion and nicads have a lot more available on demand power. We only use lead acid batteries because they are cheaper to buy and maintain than other types.


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## StandardBattery (Dec 25, 2014)

*Re: Battery Jumpstarters*

See this thread: http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb...tion-are-used-in-these-jump-start-power-banks

Im not sure about the item you listed. It does not really seem configured for jump starting given it's capacity rating it seems more for device recharging than high current capacity.


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## Gauss163 (Dec 25, 2014)

*Re: Battery Jumpstarters*



StandardBattery said:


> Im not sure about the item you listed. It does not really seem configured for jump starting given it's capacity rating it seems more for device recharging than high current capacity.



They are built with high-current (RC) LiPo cells, which can indeed supply adequate jump start current. See any of numerous youtube video demonstrations, and many Amazon reviews expressing great surprise that such a small battery can start a car (which shows how little intuition the general public has about the power of Li-ion batteries).

As for the capacity, it is usually exaggerated (typical for Chinese batteries). But capacity matters little for burst-current apps like jump starting.

Btw, some of the Amazon reviews are ridiculous, e.g. see these comments, where the first comment by the seller gives a disingenuous excuse for capacity fraud, and someone swallows hook, line, and sinker, with a bogus gas tank analogy. Perhaps someone with an Amazon account can point them to more knowledgeable forums, e.g. here.


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## JAS (Jan 8, 2015)

*Jump Starter / Power Packs*

https://www.cobra.com/support/videos/cobra-jumpack™-jump-starter-power-pack

http://www.pocketpowerplus.com/

Can these really jump start a car? Are they worth the money?


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## chillinn (Jan 9, 2015)

Is lead acid still the best choice for a battery to start a car, today? Why don't cars have a (smaller) battery backup to jump themselves? Looking at how small the new li-ion jumpers are... I wonder how small can they get. Is it possible to jump a car, just once, with something like an A23 (very small 12v) battery?


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## Lynx_Arc (Jan 9, 2015)

chillinn said:


> Is lead acid still the best choice for a battery to start a car, today? Why don't cars have a (smaller) battery backup to jump themselves? Looking at how small the new li-ion jumpers are... I wonder how small can they get. Is it possible to jump a car, just once, with something like an A23 (very small 12v) battery?



Lead acid is the cheapest choice for batteries for starting a car. I'm not sure of the cost of other packs but I'm guessing it would cost in excess of $100 for a non lead acid battery solution to start a car and could cost several hundred dollars. An A23 couldn't even power the dome light of a car there just isn't enough power in the button cells inside of one to do more than run a wireless remote transmitter for a few seconds or an LED. If you were to put about 400 of them in parallel perhaps you could get somewhere as they use alkaline chemistry which isn't suited for high current output at all.


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## chillinn (Jan 9, 2015)

Lynx_Arc said:


> Lead acid is the cheapest choice for batteries for starting a car. I'm not sure of the cost of other packs but I'm guessing it would cost in excess of $100 for a non lead acid battery solution to start a car and could cost several hundred dollars.



Thanks. Don't you think by now that Li-ion could, perhaps should, be an option for the primary start? AND an why not have an option for a backup jumper battery built-in? Lots of expensive stuff on cars these days that are unnecessary, that people pay for, especially in the premium models; leather interior, electric windows & locks, window tinting, superchargers, tires that will re-inflate if pressure too low, televisions, closed circuit video systems with infrared... the list goes on... how many here with pickup trucks have hand-warmers built-in in to their steering wheel? So what is even $500 extra when you're spending $30K-$80K on a vehicle? This is nonsense, unless there are more reasons than cost.


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## WalkIntoTheLight (Jan 9, 2015)

chillinn said:


> Thanks. Don't you think by now that Li-ion could, perhaps should, be an option for the primary start?



No. Not enough max current, compared to lead-acid. You'd need to couple a lithium-ion battery to a supercapacitor (or several) to get enough current. It just ain't worth it. Lead-acid is robust (when kept charged), cheap, and has plenty of power.



> AND an why not have an option for a backup jumper battery built-in? So what is even $500 extra when you're spending $30K-$80K on a vehicle?



Because you could buy 5 primary lead-acid starter batteries for that cost, and each one would last longer than your lithium-ion jumper. When lithium-ion are kept at full charge (which you'd probably want if you needed to use it as a jumper), they won't last much more than 3 years. A good lead-acid battery will give you at least 5 solid years of use. So by the time you need to use that jumper on your old lead-acid battery, it wouldn't work anyway!


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## Lynx_Arc (Jan 9, 2015)

chillinn said:


> Thanks. Don't you think by now that Li-ion could, perhaps should, be an option for the primary start? AND an why not have an option for a backup jumper battery built-in? Lots of expensive stuff on cars these days that are unnecessary, that people pay for, especially in the premium models; leather interior, electric windows & locks, window tinting, superchargers, tires that will re-inflate if pressure too low, televisions, closed circuit video systems with infrared... the list goes on... how many here with pickup trucks have hand-warmers built-in in to their steering wheel? So what is even $500 extra when you're spending $30K-$80K on a vehicle? This is nonsense, unless there are more reasons than cost.


What walkinto said 
Here is a site that sells lithium ion batteries capable of starting a car.
http://lithiumpros.com/product-category/12v-batteries/


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## thedoc007 (Jan 9, 2015)

chillinn said:


> Thanks. Don't you think by now that Li-ion could, perhaps should, be an option for the primary start? AND an why not have an option for a backup jumper battery built-in? Lots of expensive stuff on cars these days that are unnecessary, that people pay for, especially in the premium models; leather interior, electric windows & locks, window tinting, superchargers, tires that will re-inflate if pressure too low, televisions, closed circuit video systems with infrared... the list goes on... how many here with pickup trucks have hand-warmers built-in in to their steering wheel? So what is even $500 extra when you're spending $30K-$80K on a vehicle? This is nonsense, unless there are more reasons than cost.



WITL covered it well, there are definitely other reasons besides cost. I also think the money would be better spent on managing the primary battery. Take the $500 you want to spend on a secondary jumper pack, and use it to build in a cutoff, so your main battery doesn't get drained in the first place. Many cars already have this to some extent, but it could be improved, and would offer a much greater practical benefit.


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## CTR (Jan 12, 2015)

*Re: Battery Jumpstarters*



PhillyRube said:


> Battery question, has anyone used these things to start a car?
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00KCD05Y6/?tag=cpf0b6-20
> 
> Just curious how they work compared to the SLA packs out there. May be something to throw in my motorcycle saddlebag.



I bought a more compact version of the one in your link about 6-8 months ago and tested it on my father's VW golf which has been sat at home without a battery for about a year. First time I connected it up she fired up easily. All electrics worked and I only had the jump starter connected, no battery. It's fantastic if you ask me. I bought it for my wife's honda jazz as she does a lot of short journeys which kills the battery. 

I have used SLA versions before, but they are far more heavy and bulky. The one I have easily fits in my coat pocket and hardly weights anything.


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## Gauss163 (Jan 14, 2015)

thedoc007 said:


> Take the $500 you want to spend on a secondary jumper pack, and use it to build in a cutoff, so your main battery doesn't get drained in the first place.



Li-ion jumper packs are much cheaper than $500, e.g. $45 Buy It Now on eBay, and cheaper at auction (I won one for $13). Compare to $180 at AutoZone. They provide much more utility than alternative solutions since they can charge laptops, phones, etc and are small and light enough to carry around in a jacket pocket.


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## WalkIntoTheLight (Jan 14, 2015)

Gauss163 said:


> Li-ion jumper packs are much cheaper than $500, e.g. $45 Buy It Now on eBay, and cheaper at auction (I won one for $13). Compare to $180 at AutoZone. They provide much more utility than alternative solutions since they can charge laptops, phones, etc and are small and light enough to carry around in a jacket pocket.



The $500 was not for an external jumper pack, it was what someone wanted to spend on an integrated jumper built into their car at the factory. Yeah, it probably would cost $500, given the ridiculous cost of other options like floor mats, etc. In any case, it's a bad idea, because the lithium-ion battery in it would probably fail before the main lead-acid battery failed.


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## Gauss163 (Jan 14, 2015)

WalkIntoTheLight said:


> The $500 was not for an external jumper pack, it was what someone wanted to spend on an integrated jumper built into their car at the factory.



Right. My point was to emphasize that it can be done much cheaper if you DIY.


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## tandem (Jan 14, 2015)

Gauss163 said:


> Li-ion jumper packs are much cheaper than $500, e.g. $45 Buy It Now on eBay, and cheaper at auction (I won one for $13). Compare to $180 at AutoZone. They provide much more utility than alternative solutions since they can charge laptops, phones, etc and are small and light enough to carry around in a jacket pocket.



Do those eBay packs meet all mandatory safety standards applicable in your jurisdiction? Are they built with new cells? Does the charging circuit implement a proper CC/CV algorithm? Does it terminate at full charge or maintain a trickle charge against all wisdom, as many eBay chargers do? Does the pack incorporate protections against a dead short? Thermal monitoring? Under/over-volt conditions?

Does the pack have forged UL, CSA, RoHS, CE, IEC, and marks from other standards bodies? So many eBay sourced electrical products do. For that matter, so many no-name products originating in China share this same failing.

eBay is one of the last places I would suggest any lay person pick up lithium ion powered products. Alibaba and other direct from China sources would fill in for last place.


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## Gauss163 (Jan 14, 2015)

@Tandem The eBay packs are the same as you find in the stores. There appear to be only a handful of variants. I'm not aware of any jumper packs manufactured by reputable companies. In any case my remark was meant to address only market price - not safety (which, as you know, I addressed more generally in other active threads here).


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## tandem (Jan 14, 2015)

Given the frequency of various counterfeit products being flogged on eBay and other on-line sources I would not wish to make a bet that what's for sale on the auction site is the same as is found in a bricks and mortar store in North America even if they compare identically at a superficial level.

Worse, having four walls and a store full of products is no guarantee that what's for sale was built correctly and has appropriate, legitimate, certification. Bad stuff gets imported by wholesalers and retailers all the time. Few merchandisers trouble themselves with such things, and counterfeit UL, CSA and other marks are common.

It's not just the on-line sources that need to be viewed with caution, these days.


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## StandardBattery (Jan 14, 2015)

*Re: Battery Jumpstarters*



Gauss163 said:


> They are built with high-current (RC) LiPo cells, which can indeed supply adequate jump start current. See any of numerous youtube video demonstrations, and many Amazon reviews expressing great surprise that such a small battery can start a car (which shows how little intuition the general public has about the power of Li-ion batteries).
> 
> As for the capacity, it is usually exaggerated (typical for Chinese batteries). But capacity matters little for burst-current apps like jump starting.
> 
> Btw, some of the Amazon reviews are ridiculous, e.g. see these comments, where the first comment by the seller gives a disingenuous excuse for capacity fraud, and someone swallows hook, line, and sinker, with a bogus gas tank analogy. Perhaps someone with an Amazon account can point them to more knowledgeable forums, e.g. here.


No doubt seen all those and I have my own (2 now just for fun), but that one looked aimed more to charging that jumping even if it could do a jump. I didn't look at it too much just the general impression from it, but it may be as good as the average at jumping also.


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## WalkIntoTheLight (Jan 15, 2015)

*Re: Battery Jumpstarters*



StandardBattery said:


> No doubt seen all those and I have my own (2 now just for fun), but that one looked aimed more to charging that jumping even if it could do a jump. I didn't look at it too much just the general impression from it, but it may be as good as the average at jumping also.



I don't think "jumper cables" are really meant for starting an engine, alone. My jumper cables look to be 8 gauge wires, about 4 feet long? There's no way they can supply the current needed to start an engine, without a huge drop in voltage across them. I think jumper cables are really for giving your car battery a bit of charge, and most of the current actually comes from your own car battery when you start the engine, with a bit of help from the boosting battery.

I've never tried this, but I don't think you'd be able to start an engine if you disconnect your own battery, and try to just use the boosting battery connected to jumper cables. Not with typical cheap jumper cables, anyway.


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## chazz (Jan 15, 2015)

*Re: Battery Jumpstarters*



WalkIntoTheLight said:


> I don't think "jumper cables" are really meant for starting an engine, alone. My jumper cables look to be 8 gauge wires, about 4 feet long? There's no way they can supply the current needed to start an engine, without a huge drop in voltage across them. I think jumper cables are really for giving your car battery a bit of charge, and most of the current actually comes from your own car battery when you start the engine, with a bit of help from the boosting battery.
> 
> I've never tried this, but I don't think you'd be able to start an engine if you disconnect your own battery, and try to just use the boosting battery connected to jumper cables. Not with typical cheap jumper cables, anyway.



That is why if you want real jumper cables you will buy some heavier gauge cables, I made my own with 2/0 welding cable.  They will indeed start a car even if that car has NO battery, I have done it more than a few times. I once jumped a diesel truck with my cables after the guy tried with his tiny "speaker wire" sized cables that would not even turn it over, needless to say he was impressed and was going to buy some more impressive cables.

I Think these Li-ion jumper packs are a great idea for the just in case, plus you could use most of them to charge a phone or whatever which would be nice. I will probably be getting one at some point, just need to figure out what one is decent quality and good value. 

I have read at least a couple articles talking about auto makers possibly switching to Li-ion batteries for the primary starter battery, the main reason for them is weight savings (weight saved is mpg gained). It would not surprise me to see something like this happen in the next 5-10 years, but who knows.


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## Gauss163 (Jan 15, 2015)

*Re: Battery Jumpstarters*



WalkIntoTheLight said:


> I don't think "jumper cables" are really meant for starting an engine, alone. My jumper cables look to be 8 gauge wires, about 4 feet long? There's no way they can supply the current needed to start an engine, without a huge drop in voltage across them. I think jumper cables are really for giving your car battery a bit of charge, and most of the current actually comes from your own car battery when you start the engine, with a bit of help from the boosting battery.
> 
> I've never tried this, but I don't think you'd be able to start an engine if you disconnect your own battery, and try to just use the boosting battery connected to jumper cables. Not with typical cheap jumper cables, anyway.



But I've read many reviews that claim success starting a car with just the jumper pack (no car battery). In fact, some say that it is necessary to disconnect the car battery when the jumper pack is low (so that all of the jumper's juice goes to starting the car, and not also charging the car battery).

The common jump cables in the photos I posted use about 1 foot of 10 AWG wire and EC5 connectors. Here's what one RC site claims for their 10 AWG



> This 10 AWG wire is rated for 8 min continuous 130 Amps with 10mph x 80degF air flow, and 200 Amp burst rating for 5 seconds provided the average current (including the bursts) is not more than 80 Amps.


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## chazz (Jan 15, 2015)

*Re: Battery Jumpstarters*



Gauss163 said:


> But I've read many reviews that claim success starting a car with the jumper pack alone. In fact, some say that it is necessary to disconnect the car battery when the jumper pack is low (so that all of the jumper's juice goes to starting the car, and not also charging the car battery).
> 
> The common jump cables in the photos I posted use about 1 foot of 10 AWG wire and EC5 connectors. Here's what one RC site claims for their 10 AWG



I have personally done this as well, worked at an auto body shop for a few years, and often we would need to start and move a car with no battery in it. At that point the jump pack we used was a AGM (sealed lead acid) based and was probably 20+ lbs. I would be curious how well one of these smaller Li-ion units would hold up to actual use. 

The shorter the cable the more current it will carry vs a longer cable, so a jumper pack with fairly short cables will still handle decent current. Obviously if you are trying to start a big diesel tractor or some other equipment that normally has huge primary batteries you will need some different equipment to jump it, but most of what we are talking about is regular autos, cars etc.


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## SubLGT (Jan 16, 2015)

*Re: Battery Jumpstarters*

NOCO has entered this market with their Genius Boost GB30 Ultra Safe 400A device. I could not find any specifics on the Li-ion cell they are using, other than it having a 24Wh capacity.

http://www.geniuschargers.com/boost


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## Lynx_Arc (Jan 17, 2015)

*Re: Battery Jumpstarters*

24Wh is pretty small considering SLAs in even the cheap starters are most likely 12v 10Ah or 120wh. It sounds like it may start a car that starts easily but if one needs to crank a few times for a few minutes the battery may not have enough power to do that as many car batteries have in excess of 700 cranking amps for when it gets really cold outside


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## bella-headlight (Jan 17, 2015)

*Re: Battery Jumpstarters*

I watched my local garage start a Mitsubishi L200 3 litre turbo diesel (higher compression than a petrol motor so harder to turn over) with just one of these (no regular battery connected) http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Mini-3000...908?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item48778eddcc
The engine had just had a top end re-build & this was the first start.
Turned the motor over fast.
He left the jump pack connected for several minutes with the engine running although I see from the advert that it states to remove after 30 seconds ?
I must admit that I am tempted to get one as a "just in case" item as they are so easy to carry.
In fact I am thinking of getting 2, one to leave in my car & one to leave on my boat.


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## Lynx_Arc (Jan 17, 2015)

*Re: Battery Jumpstarters*



bella-headlight said:


> I watched my local garage start a Mitsubishi L200 3 litre turbo diesel (higher compression than a petrol motor so harder to turn over) with just one of these (no regular battery connected) http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Mini-3000...908?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item48778eddcc
> The engine had just had a top end re-build & this was the first start.
> Turned the motor over fast.
> He left the jump pack connected for several minutes with the engine running although I see from the advert that it states to remove after 30 seconds ?
> ...



If that is truly 30,000mah or 30Ah then it is about 360 watts which has more available power than SLA packs. I think there is two things needed... high current capability and enough capacity to sustain cranking long enough to start an engine. Most engines these days start a lot easier than older engines but if you did get a car that has a hard time starting some of these packs may poop out after the pack depletes. a 30Ah pack that is turning an engine that takes 400-500 amps can theoretically maintain cranking for about 6 minutes or so but one thing to consider is that battery packs wear in time and capacity is reduced so half way through the life of the pack your 6 minutes of cranking time may drop to closer to 3 minutes which would have you needing to recharge it after every use. I have a feeling we will see more and more of these lion packs in stores as people will be more impressed by the small size and claims than realizing the actual use of them may not meet up with expectations a few years down the line.


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## Gauss163 (Jan 17, 2015)

*Re: Battery Jumpstarters*



Lynx_Arc said:


> If that is truly 30,000mah or 30Ah then it is about 360 watts which has more available power than SLA packs..



30Ah is at the nominal 3.7V, so it would be 30Ah * 3.7V = 111Wh. But the capacity on these packs is usually exaggerated, as for most Chinese cells from nonreputable sources. It is probably 40-50Wh at best.


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## Lynx_Arc (Jan 17, 2015)

*Re: Battery Jumpstarters*



Gauss163 said:


> No, 30Ah is at the nominal 3.7V, so it would be 30Ah * 3.7V = 111Wh. But the capacity on these packs is usually exaggerated, as for most Chinese cells from nonreputable sources. It is probably 40-50Ah at best.



That would make some sense as I'm guessing the average 18650 sold in stuff worth anything is about 2000mah it would take 15 of them to equal 30Ah and they would be in 5 strings of 3 or 4 strings of 4 which would reduce the capacity at 12v down to 1/3 or 1/4 of the 30Ah figure lets say 7.5-10Ah.... which to me is not any better than a decent SLA pack and I certainly don't think 18650s can take nearly as much abuse as SLAs can.


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## Gauss163 (Jan 17, 2015)

*Re: Battery Jumpstarters*

Yes, one can often refute bogus capacity claims just by doing simple arithmetic that shows the energy density would be higher than the current known limit for Li-ion cells. 

You managed to quote me during the two minutes before I fixed the typo: it should say 40-50Wh (not Ah).


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## rpm00 (Jan 17, 2015)

*Re: The new lithium-ion jumpstarters*

I was thinking of getting one of the Anker models as I've found them to be a pretty reliable company. 



Sent from my iPhone using Candlepowerforums


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## bella-headlight (Jan 18, 2015)

*Re: Battery Jumpstarters*



Lynx_Arc said:


> If that is truly 30,000mah or 30Ah then it is about 360 watts which has more available power than SLA packs. I think there is two things needed... high current capability and enough capacity to sustain cranking long enough to start an engine. Most engines these days start a lot easier than older engines but if you did get a car that has a hard time starting some of these packs may poop out after the pack depletes. a 30Ah pack that is turning an engine that takes 400-500 amps can theoretically maintain cranking for about 6 minutes or so but one thing to consider is that battery packs wear in time and capacity is reduced so half way through the life of the pack your 6 minutes of cranking time may drop to closer to 3 minutes which would have you needing to recharge it after every use. I have a feeling we will see more and more of these lion packs in stores as people will be more impressed by the small size and claims than realizing the actual use of them may not meet up with expectations a few years down the line.



What I have written is absolutely true witnessed with my own eyes a few weeks before xmas.
The garage owner gave me the jump pack to look at before he used it & when he passed it to me saying "what do you think of this" I thought he was giving me his new mobile phone to look at.
He then told me what it was & that it had been given to him by a rep to try out.
He said that he had used it to start a few small cc petrol engined cars & was going to see if it would start a 3 litre diesel engined pick up that they had just done a top end re-build on.
It started it easily & he said that he was very impressed with it.
I am not 100% sure if it was the same pack as in the ebay link I posted just that that pack has the same lime green end as his.
Capacity claims may well be over inflated as per a lot of chinese stuff but the one he has certainly works.
Next time I see him I will ask how he is getting on with on it.


----------



## realdreams (Jan 18, 2015)

How well does it work in low temp environments?


----------



## SubLGT (Jan 18, 2015)

NOCO has a video showing their GB30 starting a V8 Ford F150 after both the truck and booster were at -30C for 2 hours.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AlSKU0nKY4I


----------



## Lynx_Arc (Jan 18, 2015)

SubLGT said:


> NOCO has a video showing their GB30 starting a V8 Ford F150 after both the truck and booster were at -30C for 2 hours.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AlSKU0nKY4I


I watched the video and to be honest I noticed two things going on here the first is it seems like the truck wasn't -20C to begin with and was put in I guess a freezer for 2 hours along with the battery pack and there is no way an engine at even 10C can drop to -20C in 2 hours unless you have colder temps than that blowing at the block itself. The second thing I noticed was the sound of it starting sounded like it wasn't cranking anywhere near as fast as normal and it was sounding like just before it started it was starting to slow down cranking speed and that was with less than 15 seconds of use. Now this may be fine if your car starts easily in cold weather the first time. Sometimes my truck won't start the first time I crank it I have to pause for a few seconds and try again and then it starts. I may be a skeptic but if you go on over to amazon.com and start reading the negative reviews you start to get a picture that this pack may be woefully underpowered. These days it is quite easy to flood the internet with fake reviews and to be honest it sort of looks that way on youtube with most of the reviews coming from the company itself (sponsored).


----------



## Lynx_Arc (Jan 18, 2015)

I just noticed that some reviewers were claiming to be skeptical of this products high ratings because a lot of the 5 star ratings were from people who got the product free (Vine program) and may not even have sincerely tried it out enough to give it an honest rating. I would be certainly willing for a CF expert to chime in that has this product and can give us a less biased opinion.


----------



## Whitedog1 (Jan 27, 2015)

Interesting thread! I'm joining in to be up2date! :naughty:

Got this one yesterday: http://www.amazon.de/gp/product/B00QJL4Z8C/
20000mAh and 300A (600peak) starting Amps.
Did a discharge test at the EC5 plugs (which are, i assume direct battery poles...?) and got from the 3s battery ~3000mAh!!
I then did a start test at my Octavia 2l Diesel engine without the main battery connected.
The first time i cranked it didn't start, a few seconds later at the second attemt it started!

So i think with the main battery connected, even when it is broken down, it should be possible to start the engine with this jump starter!


----------



## orbital (Feb 9, 2015)

+

You can make your own car starter by buying a 3S Lipo battery for about $50 (example: *11.1V 5200mAh 50C* )
and making some cables w/alligator clips that will adapt to the 3S connector in place

..just need a Lipo charger

>> Lipo batteries have much greater C ratings than Li-Ion*
Lipo = big Amp currents*


3S are listed as 11.1V,, fully charged they are 12.6V & that's the important number


----------



## Whitedog1 (Feb 9, 2015)

I also tested this one recently: http://www.amazon.de/gp/product/B00PGXSJG8/

I got 4600mAh out from the 3s lipo battery!
It is rated for 300A cont. and 600A Peak!
I did a start test with disconnected main battery on my 2L diesel engiene and it started at the first attemt! (the car was sitting over night at 5°C!)
So for me this is the best jupm starter in this class! I can recommend to anyone with a diesel engine!

All the others rated as 200/400A are not suitable for diesel engines!
Also be Aware of the weight of the jump starter - it should be around 450g to have enough lipo power inside to start a diesel engine! (just my findings after testing some different models!) 

@orbital:
you are right, but you didn't get the decent housing with the other Features! Maybe useful sometime.... :candle: :rock:


----------



## Lynx_Arc (Feb 9, 2015)

Whitedog1 said:


> I also tested this one recently: http://www.amazon.de/gp/product/B00PGXSJG8/
> 
> I got 4600mAh out from the 3s lipo battery!
> It is rated for 300A cont. and 600A Peak!
> ...


Most cars around here are larger than 2L my truck has a 4.0L V6 in it. Get an older car with a 5.7L motor in it and these jump start packs would have their hands full.


----------



## SubLGT (Feb 9, 2015)

Whitedog1 said:


> …………………...I did a start test with disconnected main battery on my 2L diesel engiene and it started at the first attemt! (the car was sitting over night at 5°C!)………………..



Was the booster battery also at 5C?


----------



## Whitedog1 (Feb 9, 2015)

SubLGT said:


> Was the booster battery also at 5C?



no, at room temperature!

@Lynx_Arc
Yea, i'm from Europe... :wave:
yours is a Petrol engine right? (4.0L V6) Because these need not as high amps during cranking as diesel engines! So your V6 can probably started also with this device! :thinking:


----------



## orbital (Feb 9, 2015)

+

if an alternator keeps a cars electrical system running at 14V..

Wonder if a 4S Lipo pack charged up to 14V, would be a stronger option for a starter setup??
200amps @ 14V is clearly stronger than 12ish

Although the cells aren't up to full charge, so this may effect amp current,, hmmm


_watts = amps x volts_


----------



## Whitedog1 (Feb 10, 2015)

orbital said:


> +
> if an alternator keeps a cars electrical system running at 14V..
> 
> Wonder if a 4S Lipo pack charged up to 14V, would be a stronger option for a starter setup??
> ...



Yes, personally .... if I would use just a blank battery to start i would use a 4s life battery which is at full Charge at 4*3,6V=14,4V !! :bow:


----------



## Lynx_Arc (Feb 10, 2015)

I think one problem with a 14v starting battery able to put out over 200amps would be the impact on the vehicles battery as you essentially try to "charge" it at a 200A rate the results may not be optimal (could be dangerous).


----------



## bella-headlight (Feb 10, 2015)

My friend bought one of these recently from Costco UK & showed it to me today.
It was just off the charger (5 minutes) & showing fully charged.
According to my DMM it showed 12.27v ?


----------



## spencer (Feb 12, 2015)

realdreams said:


> How well does it work in low temp environments?


I didn't read this whole thread but most of it. I live in Canada and it is safe to say that for at least 8 months of the year, none of these products would ever work. The only way they would ever work is if they charged the lead acid battery for long enough that it was able to provide enough power to crank the vehicle. Due to the extreme cold where I live, batteries that start to preform poorly get weeded out on an annual basis. The most common reason people need a boost where I live is because the vehicle is almost always kept in a garage and the vehicle got parked outside too long the block got WAY colder than usual. 

Unless the battery is nearly new, you almost always need decent synthetic oil to start an engine with a block and battery core temperature of -20C. It also doesn't help that a significantly larger portion of the vehicles in this county are trucks/SUVs, or at the very least vans, and have higher displacement engines than nearly all cars. 

Another thing working against these chargers is that they are most likely kept in the vehicle and have the same temperature as the engine. All battery performance is degraded at low - and exponentially so at extreme low - temperatures. For those who have never seen below even 10F (-12C) this may be unfathomable to you. 

In summary, the starter would have to be VERY premium, have a very heavy (relative) and short cable, be kept at roomish temperature, and have excellent batteries in it to even stand a chance where I live.


----------



## SemiMan (Feb 12, 2015)

*Re: The new lithium-ion jumpstarters*

Lead acid batteries charge at over 14 volts and for short term high current I am not worried.

LiPo IS lithium ion. It is a construction method not a chemistry for the nth time 

Posted by really crappy Tapatalk app that is questionable wrt respect of personal data.


----------



## SemiMan (Feb 12, 2015)

*Re: The new lithium-ion jumpstarters*

AGM batteries still do quite well at -20C, much better than flooded and much better than lithium chemistries. With the low weight of the boosters I wonder how much self heating comes into play after the first couple quick boost attempts?

On average cars in Canada are smaller than the US.

Posted by really crappy Tapatalk app that is questionable wrt respect of personal data.


----------



## orbital (Feb 12, 2015)

*Re: The new lithium-ion jumpstarters*

+

Couple reasons why I was banging-on about just getting a 3~4S rc pack & making your own

> while back my battery was just not enough to start, really not in a spot to get a jump,,, could have used a Lipo boost
..second about making you own,, Lipo batteries don't like to be stored in fully charged state, so it's a bit of a conundrum for those nice units with USB ect.*

I'd rather ruin a $50 battery over time than a $90~140 complete setup.

*which are using Lipo batteries anyway


----------



## bella-headlight (Feb 13, 2015)

*Re: The new lithium-ion jumpstarters*

I expected a fully charged pack to show 12.6v ie 3x4.2v if it using 3 x 18650 cells ?
Could this be a sign that re-used lap top cells are being used, as is a seemingly common practice with the chinese, or maybe the charger ?
12.27v is 97% full charge which dosen"t sound to bad but individually it would mean each cell is at 4.09v (assuming uniform voltage per cell) which from what I have read is not the sign of a good new 18650 cell when fully charged ?
BTW my friends pack is a "Winplus" 8000mah.


----------



## orbital (Feb 13, 2015)

*Re: The new lithium-ion jumpstarters*

^ 

careful on your wording, you have zero proof on cells used,
different chargers can bring cells from 4.05~4.2


----------



## bella-headlight (Feb 13, 2015)

*Re: The new lithium-ion jumpstarters*

Sorry but you have lost me there I haven"t stated what cells are used just asked a question to be answered by those more knowledgeable than myself.
I thought that these packs used 18650 cells ?
Aren"t they nominally 3.7v & I thought that fully charged 18650 cells were 4.2v ?
To produce 12v there would have to be 3 cells in series ?
I have several 18650 chargers & good cells (also some chinese ultrafire cells which are not good) & they show 4.2v on both a charger & a DMM when fully charged.
If one of my new 18650 cells when fully charged was only showing 4v I would be a little concerned that there was something amiss with either the cell or charger ?
BTW I have ultrafire 18650 cells bought recently (before I found this forum) that on my Nitecore D4 charger &DMM only reach just over 4v whereas my other "good" cells reach 4.2v on the same charger & DMM.


----------



## orbital (Feb 13, 2015)

*Re: The new lithium-ion jumpstarters*

^

The standalone units are basically 3S rc batteries in a nice housing,, not 18650s'

18650s' can't do anywhere near 200A constant


----------



## bella-headlight (Feb 13, 2015)

*Re: The new lithium-ion jumpstarters*



orbital said:


> ^
> 
> The standalone units are basically 3S rc batteries in a nice housing,, not 18650s'
> 
> 18650s' can't do anywhere near 200A constant



Thanks for that you have confirmed that these are not 18650 based packs, which explains the voltage (I couldn"t get my head round the claimed amps but assumed that it might have been an exaggerated claim like that which claims that my ultrafire 18650 cells were 4,000 mah & you can get them in 5,000 & now 6,000 mah).
Any idea what these rc batteries are like for holding a charge over a period of time ?
Thanks again.


----------



## bella-headlight (Feb 14, 2015)

*Re: The new lithium-ion jumpstarters*

I have been told in another thread that the above batteries are what are in these small car jump start packs.
Does anyone know what these batteries are like at holding a charge ?
I am thinking of getting one to leave on my boat in case of being unable to start the outboard due to flat batteries & just wondered how well they hold a charge.

There is no need to start a new thread when your question is relevant to this thread. Merged - Norm


----------



## Keisari (Feb 14, 2015)

*Re: The new lithium-ion jumpstarters*



bella-headlight said:


> I expected a fully charged pack to show 12.6v ie 3x4.2v if it using 3 x 18650 cells ?
> Could this be a sign that re-used lap top cells are being used





bella-headlight said:


> Thanks for that you have confirmed that *these are not 18650 based packs, which explains the voltage*


I think it doesn't really explain that. A protected battery pack's final voltage is dictated by the electronics. That's not directly indicative of any problem with the cells itself. It's possible to just make the circuit stop charging before the specified maximum voltage. Possible reasons for lower than expected voltage might include an attempt to increase battery cycle life or shelf life, or just sloppy design.


----------



## happyguy82 (Feb 14, 2015)

*Re: The new lithium-ion jumpstarters*



bella-headlight said:


> Sorry but you have lost me there I haven"t stated what cells are used just asked a question to be answered by those more knowledgeable than myself.
> I thought that these packs used 18650 cells ?
> Aren"t they nominally 3.7v & I thought that fully charged 18650 cells were 4.2v ?
> To produce 12v there would have to be 3 cells in series ?
> ...



They use flat 3S1P LiPo batteries, just like the ones used to fly most airplanes / helicopters but these are slightly larger and heavier. LiPo's high discharge rate makes them ideal for starting vehicles.

I took some pictures of the inside of mine. Check these out:

http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb...re-used-in-these-jump-start-power-banks/page3


----------



## bella-headlight (Feb 15, 2015)

*Re: The new lithium-ion jumpstarters*

Thanks for the pics happyguy82.
Obviously as these packs are for emergency starting they need to be stored fully charged
I am just wondering how long they retain enough charge to be able to start an engine ?
Can they be left for several months & retain enough charge to start an engine.
I know very little about different battery chemistry except that if it were a good condition fully charged lead acid battery then it could be left many months between charges.
Are these the same, by that I mean can they be left months between charges or do they require much more frequent charging to maintain a useful charge ?


----------



## orbital (Feb 15, 2015)

*Re: The new lithium-ion jumpstarters*



happyguy82 said:


> They use flat 3S1P LiPo batteries, just like the ones used to fly most airplanes / helicopters but these are slightly larger and heavier. LiPo's high discharge rate makes them ideal for starting vehicles.
> 
> I took some pictures of the inside of mine. Check these out:
> 
> http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb...re-used-in-these-jump-start-power-banks/page3



+ 

Very interested in what mAh they give for that unit,,
looks to be a standard 6000~6600mAh 3S pack.


----------



## happyguy82 (Feb 15, 2015)

*Re: The new lithium-ion jumpstarters*



orbital said:


> +
> 
> Very interested in what mAh they give for that unit,,
> that looks to be a standard 6000~6600mAh 3S pack.



Yeah of coz it can't be 38,000. I've done a discharge and measured under 3000mAh


Sent from my iGoldBar using Candlepowerforums


----------



## orbital (Feb 15, 2015)

*Re: The new lithium-ion jumpstarters*

^

..and I thought I was being super generous on the mAh

The listed mAh numbers on all these _ready to buy units_ must be for 5V
*
or something*


----------



## bella-headlight (Feb 19, 2015)

*Re: The new lithium-ion jumpstarters*

So does anyone have any experience of how well these packs hold a charge & how often they need to be recharged to maintain enough charge to be able to jump start an engine ?


----------



## SubLGT (Jun 24, 2015)

*Re: Battery Jumpstarters*



SubLGT said:


> NOCO has entered this market with their Genius Boost GB30 Ultra Safe 400A device. I could not find any specifics on the Li-ion cell they are using, other than it having a 24Wh capacity…………………..



There are some photos of a disassembled Genius Boost here:
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/3523151/1

The battery pack is 11.1V and 2150mAh, and is made from 3 flat cells.


----------



## SubLGT (Jun 25, 2015)

tandem said:


> Do those eBay packs meet all mandatory safety standards applicable in your jurisdiction? Are they built with new cells? Does the charging circuit implement a proper CC/CV algorithm? Does it terminate at full charge or maintain a trickle charge against all wisdom, as many eBay chargers do? Does the pack incorporate protections against a dead short? Thermal monitoring? Under/over-volt conditions?
> 
> Does the pack have forged UL, CSA, RoHS, CE, IEC, and marks from other standards bodies? So many eBay sourced electrical products do. For that matter, so many no-name products originating in China share this same failing.
> 
> eBay is one of the last places I would suggest any lay person pick up lithium ion powered products. Alibaba and other direct from China sources would fill in for last place.



A surprisingly large number of people are willing to overlook the risk of questionable electronics devices, in exchange for a dirt cheap price. I would not be willing to store a $35 ebay jump starter in the trunk of my car, especially in hot weather.


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## IT_Architect (Aug 16, 2015)

spencer said:


> ...I live in Canada...a significantly larger portion of the vehicles in this county are trucks/SUVs...Another thing working against these chargers is that they are most likely kept in the vehicle and have the same temperature as the engine...10F (-12C)...the starter would have to be VERY premium...to even stand a chance...


I live in the US in an area that is not necessarily further south than most of the Canadian population. Heat kills batteries faster than massive starter draw, so we commonly get MORE life from our batteries than those who live in the south. However, it is during the cold snaps, and leaving the car unsheltered for 12+ hours, that we learn our seven-year-old battery is not going to see another birthday. 

Testing has already been performed to determine how these jump starters perform under cold conditions.
ConsumerReports tested ten of these, nearly all from vendors well-known for these products. 
Some of the relevant scenarios were:
- The battery weak at room temperature and the jump starter at room temperature
- The battery dead at room temperature and the jump starter at room temperature
- The battery weak at 0F(-18C) and the jump starter at room temperature
- The battery dead at 0F(-18C) and the jump starter at room temperature
- The battery weak at 0F(-18C) and the jump starter at 0F
- The battery dead at 0F(-18C) and the jump starter at 0F

To summarize, when the jump starters themselves were at 0F(-18C), as would be the case if you stored them in your glove box, none of the jump starters were capable of starting a car even with just a weak battery. Performance fell off very rapidly when the jump starters' temperature fell below freezing 32F (0C). Of the ten, there were five that they recommended against buying. The most expensive was clearly the best, but their performance in general did not follow price.

Some people say you can make your own with RC batteries. I'm familiar with the RC world and I design solid state circuits as part of my profession. This is my take:
- There is a big difference between Li-Po RC batteries and and Life-Po (LiFePO4​) batteries. The ones that I've checked out seem to use the LiFE-Po batteries, which are quite different than RC Li-Po.
a. Voltage per cell is different, which means charging is different
b. Life-Po batteries like these devices use will accept at least 4 times as many cycles
c. Li-Po balancing chargers cost as much of these devices do.
d. RC Li-Po batteries explode and catch fire if you don't maintain them correctly.
e. You must be careful with how high you charge and how low you discharge or you will get little battery life

- It would cost you twice the money, no features, and you would need to sleep with one eye open. I have the electronic expertise and I'm not going to do it.

*I'd love to know which, if any, of the these devices have balancing chargers. It's huge when it comes to battery life.


----------



## IT_Architect (Aug 16, 2015)

Deleted - Duplicate


----------



## idleprocess (Aug 17, 2015)

Somewhat tangential to the discussion: a hybrid LiFEP04 + supercap concept is in the works to replace your car battery. Claimed to be immensely lighter than a standard car battery, longer-lasting, and smart enough to leave a cranking reserve should you leave the headlights on.

Manufacturer's hype/pre-order site.

Even at the $200 MSRP, I might be down just for the reliability, assuming they hit their other numbers. TX heat is brutal on car batteries and they are indeed never the same once they've been run down _just once_.

If not this particular manufacturer, then another is apt to produce something like this.;


----------



## Lynx_Arc (Aug 17, 2015)

idleprocess said:


> Somewhat tangential to the discussion: a hybrid LiFEP04 + supercap concept is in the works to replace your car battery. Claimed to be immensely lighter than a standard car battery, longer-lasting, and smart enough to leave a cranking reserve should you leave the headlights on.
> 
> Manufacturer's hype/pre-order site.
> 
> ...


I read the article and one thing that stands out is that the capacity of the battery is less than 1/4 of a lead acid battery (45Ah vs 10Ah). I'm guessing that it will also have less power to start a car that needs to be cranked a lot especially when it hasn't been started for awhile and the weather turns very cold. In other words this battery may lean towards these lithium starter packs in being underpowered in tough situations.
In an extended power outage it would be a negative as you would have to start and run your car more often to charge devices from the battery itself with the 75% less capacity. I consider this going backwards as most people want to INCREASE battery capacity instead of REDUCE it like this idea is doing.


----------



## idleprocess (Aug 17, 2015)

Lynx_Arc said:


> I read the article and one thing that stands out is that the capacity of the battery is less than 1/4 of a lead acid battery (45Ah vs 10Ah). I'm guessing that it will also have less power to start a car that needs to be cranked a lot especially when it hasn't been started for awhile and the weather turns very cold. In other words this battery may lean towards these lithium starter packs in being underpowered in tough situations.
> In an extended power outage it would be a negative as you would have to start and run your car more often to charge devices from the battery itself with the 75% less capacity. I consider this going backwards as most people want to INCREASE battery capacity instead of REDUCE it like this idea is doing.



The supercap bank is there for the cranking; the actual battery is there to keep the cap bank charged and to power aux loads. I've seen some demos of the concept on YouTube that suggest the idea could work great if well implemented. The supercap bank should have no problem delivering the startup burst. Devil is in the details, but the underlying concepts seem solid.

It won't be everything to everyone. If you routinely leave your vehicle idle for weeks on end, it could fail you. If you demand the ability to run accessories for extended periods with the engine off, it is likely to disappoint. If you need more CCA than it promises, you're also not in the target market.


----------



## IT_Architect (Aug 17, 2015)

idleprocess said:


> Somewhat tangential to the discussion: a hybrid LiFEP04 + supercap concept is in the works to replace your car battery. If not this particular manufacturer, then another is apt to produce something like this.;


I know that standard group size LiFE-Po batteries are around because someone posted a link to them I ran across last week on another forum. They do not use the capacitors. However, they are EXPENSIVE, which is why I lost interest and didn't save the link. They are easy to find for motorcycles, but they are still in the $359 range. They have electronics in them that not only protect the cells from over-discharging, but also balance the cells during charging to prevent over-charging the individual cells. They claim 8 years, but I'll believe it when I see it. I get 7 out of OEM lead acids. Watch out for the words, equivalent. Compare to the PCA and CCA to the OEM lead acid, and you will likely find out they aren't equivalent, and never equivalent on AH. So even if you do pay a fortune to get the same PCA and CCA, if the AH is way off you won't be able to have the accessories on long.

Lead-acids are tough to beat. They've had competitors before, such as flooded NiCADs like they use in aircraft. It's always something like safety, maintenance, reliability, longevity, cost, etc. Even small aircraft use lead-acids.


----------



## idleprocess (Aug 17, 2015)

IT_Architect said:


> I know that standard group size LiFE-Po batteries are around because someone posted a link to them I ran across last week on another forum. They do not use the capacitors. However, they are EXPENSIVE, which is why I lost interest and didn't save the link. They are easy to find for motorcycles, but they are still in the $359 range. They have electronics in them that not only protect the cells from over-discharging, but also balance the cells during charging to prevent over-charging the individual cells. They claim 8 years, but I'll believe it when I see it. I get 7 out of OEM lead acids. Watch out for the words, equivalent. Compare to the PCA and CCA to the OEM lead acid, and you will likely find out they aren't equivalent, and never equivalent on AH. So even if you do pay a fortune to get the same PCA and CCA, if the AH is way off you won't be able to have the accessories on long.
> 
> Lead-acids are tough to beat. They've had competitors before, such as flooded NiCADs like they use in aircraft. It's always something like safety, maintenance, reliability, longevity, cost, etc. Even small aircraft use lead-acids.


We may have to agree to disagree.

I live in Texas where heat routinely kills batteries in 3-4 years - I'm amazed that the battery manufacturers offer warranties here. Conversely, it drops below freezing perhaps 20 days of the year; block heaters are a concept the natives don't understand.

My daily driver is a well-maintained compact car that uses a group 35 battery - 550 CCA is in line with what average batteries in that category. Starting the car is its primary function in life - accessories are quite rarely run for more than a few minutes with the engine off; the small reserve is of little concern to me. I suspect there are quite a few people out there with median use cases like mine that would be interested in a battery such as this just so they don't have to futz around with batteries that fail at the worst possible time - warrantied or not.

Provided the concept can *reliably meet its claims*, I think it will have a place in the market. Like I said earlier - it won't be everything to everyone.

Your "it's been tried before _and failed_" retort would be valid were this a rehash of something that's been tried before, but to the best of my knowledge this is the first commercial attempt at a hybrid battery. But the concept doesn't seem to have any inherently fatal flaws, so I'm going to wait and see; I'm hardly at the shut up and take my money phase. One suspects that should Ohm succeed, others will enter the market and the category will see marked improvements in both price and performance.


----------



## ElectronGuru (Aug 18, 2015)

*Re: The new lithium-ion jumpstarters*

From an over-readiness standpoint, I love the idea of a pocket sized jumper. But as has been said, you can't leave it in the glove box for a year and you won't be carrying it in your pocket. So it needs to be a USb source first and a jumper second, in which case you may not have it when you need it for the car.

I'd rather spend the extra cash on a good AGM battery. It can handle abuse better, it should last longer in most applications, and it will always be in the car.


----------



## IT_Architect (Aug 18, 2015)

idleprocess said:


> Your "it's been tried before _and failed_" retort would be valid were this a rehash of something that's been tried before, but to the best of my knowledge this is the first commercial attempt at a hybrid battery.


I was referring to a LiFE-Po Group 86 battery, which if memory serves, would set me back $1700. Moreover, the advertised 12% increased life expectancy claimed, may be far from what is possible under real-world automotive conditions.

I've seen many flash-in-the-pan ideas come and go, more than a few of my own, and own a patent. It taught me respect for the thought that went into, and being honest about the merits of established technology, when evaluating the veracity of a new idea. 



idleprocess said:


> Provided the concept can *reliably meet its claims*


Exactly! As the saying goes, "Figures don't lie, but liars DO figure." The only thing a business needs to be successful is paying customers. It's not unusual for companies to advertise possible future capabilities in the present tense, and specs that are not achievable under real-world conditions.

As to the topic of the thread, these devices are being marketed as jumper cable replacements. It has not escaped my notice that the people who are happy with them, use them almost every day. The people that say they are junk, threw them in their trunk, and when they needed them, they didn't work. We already know that running down below the critical voltage, whether through load or self-discharge, is a far more significant event in the life of Li-Ion-based batteries than other technologies. 

This is hardly to forum for me to get practical on, and I have some Li-Ion flashlights of my own, that if I were to be honest, are better at impressing people than providing me with real-life benefit. As much as I would like to buy one of these boxes, I think I'm going be honest with myself for a change, and buy some 100% copper, 4 gauge, made-in-USA, short, jumper cables.


----------



## Lynx_Arc (Aug 18, 2015)

IT_Architect said:


> I think I'm going be honest with myself for a change, and buy some 100% copper, 4 gauge, made-in-USA, short, jumper cables.


I have a set of 4 gauge jumper cables that are 20 feet long and they are perfect for most uses as too much shorter and you would have problems with them reaching when a car is dead in a parking lot with other cars near them. I've had 16 foot cables and they are ok but a few times the extra few feet could have been handy. If I were starting cars often I would get a set of 00 gauge 25 foot cables they can handle 3 times the current as 4 gauge and 25 feet long can have you parking behind a full size extended cab truck and able to reach its battery.


----------



## IT_Architect (Aug 18, 2015)

You're right of course, and 20 footers and a plastic case were my first reaction. Then I started thinking short as possible, 12', because they take up less space, and I don't have a truck or a car with a trunk, I have a Saturn Vue, and with my IT supplies behind the rear seat. 12' would be a little less voltage drop too, which might make a small difference. 4 gauge copper conducts like 2 gauge aluminum, very flexible, and has ends that don't give wire-to-clamp connection problems. I'll think about the length one more time though before I buy. I only use them once every year or two.


----------



## idleprocess (Aug 18, 2015)

IT_Architect said:


> I was referring to a LiFE-Po Group 86 battery, which if memory serves, would set me back $1700. Moreover, the advertised 12% increased life expectancy claimed, may be far from what is possible under real-world automotive conditions.


Yes, that would be a marginal value proposition in all but a handful of niche situations... routinely utilizing most of the reserve being about the only one that comes to mind. A BEV module for the do-it-yourself electric vehicle modder also comes to mind since you can use lead-acid's simpler charge management systems.



> I've seen many flash-in-the-pan ideas come and go, more than a few of my own, and own a patent. It taught me respect for the thought that went into, and being honest about the merits of established technology, when evaluating the veracity of a new idea.


Similar to why I'm not buying stock in the hybrid concept. I want to see how well it holds up after a year or two while the early adapters chase down the bugs. Seen far too many kickstarter campaigns and the like go over like software projects - 300% over budget, 16 months late on a 12-month timeline, and barely meet 65% of the original scope... some of which was due to bad project management, some due to unrealistic promises.



I once had a lead-acid jump starer - I got it in one of woot.com's "bag o crap" offerings _(for $3 plus $5 shipping you get an assortment of random stuff they have in the warehouse in addition to "a bag" of some sort)_. It revived the dead vehicle - barely - the one time I used it before the cheap integrated charger killed the SLA. I recall that it had screw-post terminals rather than the clip-on variety more common with ~7.2A-H alarm batteries, suggesting that it was at a high-rate battery.

For the Li- chemistry jump starter to be successful for the average person, they need something that can either sit idle at a useful state of charge for a long time or something that can be maintained via the vehicle's electrical system but _not_ discharge into whatever load kills the main starter battery.


----------



## IT_Architect (Aug 19, 2015)

idleprocess said:


> For the Li- chemistry jump starter to be successful for the average person...


We are on exactly the same page. I asked the manufacturers if they had anything that beeps like a smoke alarm battery going bad so people would charge them. None did. They said you can see from the indicator. That wouldn't happen until you needed it.


----------



## Gauss163 (Aug 19, 2015)

IT_Architect said:


> Some people say you can make your own with RC batteries. I'm familiar with the RC world and I design solid state circuits as part of my profession. This is my take:
> - There is a big difference between Li-Po RC batteries and and Life-Po (LiFePO4​) batteries. The ones that I've checked out seem to use the LiFE-Po batteries, which are quite different than RC Li-Po.



I'm not aware of any jump starters that use LiFePO. Beware exaggerated marketing claims. Many claim to use safer LiFePO cells but actually use LiPo, e.g. see teardowns here and elsewhere. 

Note that the Consumer Reports blurb claims that the best capacity unit (Antigravity XP-10) had 3x the capacity of the others, so almost surely it is not LiFePO, which has much poorer energy density than LiPo cells (universally used in the cheap Chinese units). 

Said CR blurb is completely lacking in technical details, which does not lend much confidence to its credibility. 

What units did you check out that had LiFePO cells?


----------



## Crimson (Aug 19, 2015)

*Re: The new lithium-ion jumpstarters*



ShineOnYouCrazyDiamond said:


> It may seem awkward to use that voltage, but I've measured the voltage of a fews cars while starting them when I had batteries going dead. Under start load I've measure in the low 10V range. As long as the charger can maintain at least 3.4ish volts under load it should be able to start the car. Question is how many starts it can handle in the long-run before the battery starts to degrade and can't hold voltage under load.



Maintaining 3.4 volts won't help you when starting a car, you still need the full 12.7 volts required by the vehicle's electrical system. You can't connect a 3.4 volt battery to the now-10 volt car battery to get the required voltage. Just as important, however, are how many Cranking Amps it can provide. You can have 12.7 volts provided all day long, but without enough Cranking Amps you aren't going to get any result either.

I bought one of these jump starters to play around with and I was surprised to find out it works well. I wouldn't bet on getting more than a couple starts out of it before needing to charge it though. I will say that the brand I bought (not pictured here) has been blowing fuses like crazy and it's not cheap to replace the cable with built in fuse. Luckily mine has been fine so far.


----------



## IT_Architect (Aug 20, 2015)

Gauss163 said:


> I'm not aware of any jump starters that use LiFePO. Beware exaggerated marketing claims...(Antigravity XP-10) had 3x the capacity of the others, so almost surely it is not LiFePO...What units did you check out that had LiFePO cellsI'm not saying you're not right as I haven't cotact?


 I'm not saying you're not right as I haven't contacted AntiGravity https://www.pegasusautoracing.com/productdetails.asp?RecID=12594 http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00KQSEOPI/ref=pd_lpo_sbs_dp_ss_1?pf_rd_p=1944687702&pf_rd_s=lpo-top-stripe-1&pf_rd_t=201&pf_rd_i=B00HE00OYG&pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_r=04RYFV2W0YKY75HKNZ06


----------



## Gauss163 (Aug 20, 2015)

That reminds me that in an earlier thread someone posted what might be a Tenergy jump pack containing LiFePO cells. But until someone does a teardown I am a bit skeptical, since some Chinese "manufacturers" are known to go to great lengths to create Frankenbattery fakes, e.g. below are excerpts from a Youtube video teardown of a fake Sony NP-F970 videocam battery. What a piece of work, eh? I shudder to think what may be inside some of these jump packs, esp. now that competition is heating up and some are selling for less than $30 on eBay. Caveat emptor!


----------



## Gauss163 (Sep 3, 2015)

*Beware the scammers*

Beware that some scammers have recently started listing these LiPo car jump starters at too-good-to-be-true prices on eBay, e.g. here and here. If you see them listed for < $30 by a seller who previously sold only very cheap items then it is probably a scam.


----------



## Gauss163 (Sep 4, 2015)

*Re: Beware the fires too!*

Beware also that some of these jump starters have recently been reported to catch on fire while charging.


----------



## Overclocker (Sep 4, 2015)

*Re: The new lithium-ion jumpstarters*






what's the starting current for something like a corolla/civic? i just built this 48V pack from Samsung 25R cells (rated 20A per cell)


----------



## Gauss163 (Sep 4, 2015)

Hopefully you are charging that beast more intelligently than the "surefire" chargers linked in my prior message. I shudder to think about the fire that would produce.


----------



## Overclocker (Sep 4, 2015)

haha of course. iCharger 106B+ it's a 250W charger. that's just a small pack.

this samsung 26F pack has 96 cells:






i'm also planning to build 200+ samsung 29E


----------



## fluke (Apr 24, 2016)

Old thread I know.

Is 140 degrees the max these jump starters can take ?

Pointless really as even in the UK summer temps in car get way higher.


----------



## TinderBox (UK) (May 9, 2016)

Well these are supercaps but it is still interesting.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z3x_kYq3mHM

John.


----------



## farmerpete (Apr 3, 2017)

Hello Clever boffins
My 98 mercedes benz has a very long ( ie 2 m ) positive cable running to the starter.Battery is under the back seat
There is a +ve pole under the bonnet for emergency jumpstarts.
I have a new battery.
I have checked all connections and seem good. Electric wiring appears original and in good order 
Problem.. car has a slow start crank. Diesels don't like slow crank starting especially in Winter.
If I use the emergency +ve pole with jumper leads the starter cranks fast like a gem.
My thought....permanently mount one of these mini jumpstart batteries on the +ve pole under the bonnet ?
Thoughts ????
Cheers from Australia


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## Lynx_Arc (Apr 3, 2017)

farmerpete said:


> Hello Clever boffins
> My 98 mercedes benz has a very long ( ie 2 m ) positive cable running to the starter.Battery is under the back seat
> There is a +ve pole under the bonnet for emergency jumpstarts.
> I have a new battery.
> ...


Get someone to help you and measure voltage from the battery terminals when trying to start and then under the hood where the cables connect too and note how much the voltage drops. This should give you a clue where the problem is.


----------



## tripplec (Jan 5, 2018)

I was hoping to find some new and useful information on the Lithium booster packs. Many sold appear No-name type (no name manufacturers behind them and warranty is useless if they either don't exist and across the ocean).

A lot specify mAH and Peak current, yeah well peak is gone the instant the load is connected. It Cranking Amps we need to know and performance at Zero F or viable winter temperature. Thats when you really need a boost that works, not just summer time.

Even Noco plays the numbers game. I contact them the other day on chat!! The rep had NO CLUE about cranking anps and got back with a list of engines it would start. Right, clueless IMO and why would I pay north of $100 and not get a wall charger. They don't provide one. Charge via USB is not smart. Many USB ports are 500mA max, USB 2.0 and with ratings of 12,000mAH to over 20,000mAH it would take a extremely long time to recharge. Re Charge time is not indicated by the OEM's so far in hours of looking, reading and checking so far neither on Amazon.ca or eBay which many have elevated mAH ratings which cannot be true as well. All the more reason to know the actual cranking amps. My auto battery says 690CCA, would I expect a 300-400 amp lithium pack to start it when I need it in the winter?


----------



## WalkIntoTheLight (Jan 5, 2018)

tripplec said:


> All the more reason to know the actual cranking amps. My auto battery says 690CCA, would I expect a 300-400 amp lithium pack to start it when I need it in the winter?



I thought the purpose of booster batteries was to give your auto battery a partial recharge, which gets its own cranking voltage & amps back up to a level that can start your car. I've boosted cars from a 12v battery, but I've done it using fairly long 8 gauge wires. There's no way my booster battery could deliver all the CCA needed to start a car by itself. The car is starting from its own auto battery, with a bit of help from the booster battery. But the main purpose of the booster is to charge the auto battery.

So, I don't think you need 690CCA from those booster packs. You just need enough energy in them to give your auto battery a decent charge, and to help out a bit when you start the engine.


----------



## BVH (Jan 5, 2018)

The quality hand held boosters will start good size v-6 engines with the battery entirely removed from the car. Anti-Gravity units will. Especially the Heavy Duty unit. The purpose is not to partially recharge the low or dead car battery. They are made for immediate starting. Back in the Chevy V-8 days, starter motors required around 250 Amps to work. Todays starters in smaller engines require significantly less. The Lipo style battery in the small Anti-Gravity starter unit is only 3.6 Ah. The battery in the Heavy Duty unit is about 6.6 Ah. There's video of the HD unit providing 330 Amps to an electronic load. It maintains about 9.5 Volts or so for well over the time it requires an engine to start.

I just got through making my own unit using a LiFeP04 pack which provides a slightly higher Voltage than do the Lipo based starters and much safer to keep in the vehicle. Not to mention virtually no self-discharge.


----------



## WalkIntoTheLight (Jan 5, 2018)

Okay, those leads are way shorter than the booster cables you typically get in hardware stores. I think my booster cables would be struggling with 100 amps.


----------



## BVH (Jan 5, 2018)

Less cable, less resistance and less Voltage loss. With these small units, you get up and close to things.


----------



## WalkIntoTheLight (Jan 5, 2018)

Yes, which is why I thought that boosts primarily worked by charging the car's battery, and not by trying to deliver all those starting amps over long, thin, booster cables.


----------



## GaryM (Jan 5, 2018)

*Re: The new lithium-ion jumpstarters*

I have one of the Anti-Gravity HD units and it's amazing. Friends V8 Ford PU wouldn't crank and I offered help. He said he'd gut out his cables, so I opened my coat and said "don't need them, get back in". Made the connection and it started right up. He was going to order one when he got home.

It wasn't as cold as it is right now, but it was close to freezing.

You do have to keep it charged of course, but it comes with both AC and car chargers.


----------



## tripplec (Jan 6, 2018)

*Re: The new lithium-ion jumpstarters*

I got one of these Supposedly High End Standard Lead acid AGM boosters by Stanely. Its not made by them it turns out someone license the name only.

Rated at 1000 Amp Peak, 500 Amp boost !! But read the small sticker on the back and its laughable. 1000 Amp Peak 1 sec (which is gone the moment you make the clamped connection like a surge), 500 amp 3 sec, *300 Amp cranking* !!!

The same product is sold under Eliminator and I see a Dewalt version as well. I used in mostly for its attached air compressor for convenience and it burned out or wore out in 2 years. I have had to boost my sons vehicle a few times. I connect it and in never was able to start whatever vehicle he needed started. Useless, I went and connect his old Eliminator rated at 700 amp (not details on it but likely a lot less cranking but a bigger unit). It started every time.

I don't see any 300 or 400 amp unit starting most engines in -20C or lower personally. But thats when I really need it to work!! < -20C for sure other wise a waste of money.


----------



## BVH (Jan 6, 2018)

*Re: The new lithium-ion jumpstarters*



GaryM said:


> .......................You do have to keep it charged of course, but it comes with both AC and car chargers.



This is one of the reasons I love the LiFeP04 chemistry batteries. In order for the Lipo units to work, they need to be fully charged. But fully charging and keeping a Lipo fully charged is the worst thing you can do for it. This greatly shortens the life of the battery. They should be kept at storage charge (about 3.85 Volts Per Cell). It's a Catch-22.


----------



## SilverFox (Jan 6, 2018)

*Re: The new lithium-ion jumpstarters*

I picked up a NOCO GB150 last year. After a year of use I am totally impressed.

In the vehicle charging takes a couple of hours but if you want to charge it in the house it takes overnight. If you use the unit as a power supply it runs for close to 8 hours, then shuts off. Running the light at maximum brightness for 8 hours uses about 25% of the capacity. I believe this unit has an 8 Ah battery pack.

When I anticipate only having to start small engines I keep the unit at about 50% charge. When dealing with large engines I bump that up to 100%. The idea is to store the unit at less than full charge for longer life. If I need to help start a larger engine I can usually plug the charger in and bring it closer to a full charge. So far this has worked out very well.

I have had several opportunities to start cars and vans with dead batteries (left interior lights on) and 3 cases of assisting weak batteries in temperatures in the -10F to -15F range.

The most difficult start was a truck that had a battery disconnect that wasn't used. The engine was about a 9 liter diesel and the truck had dual 12V batteries hooked in parallel. When I attached the GB150 to the battery I had a voltage reading of 1.80 volts. Temperature was about +15F. 

I hooked up and the truck cranked but didn't start. I tried a couple of more times and eventually it did start. I was impressed.

The next day I went to show off my jump pack and while I was showing about a 50% charge, the truck wouldn't start. I should have charged the jump pack back up overnight. Oh well, live and learn. I now know the limits and that counts for something.

This unit won't fit in your pocket and is overkill if you only need to start cars, but it has worked out very well for my needs.

Tom


----------



## 1000cri (Jan 8, 2018)

*Re: The new lithium-ion jumpstarters*

If you do keep at lead acid jump starter make sure you top if off every few months, they will last much longer. I got 8 years out of my last one, and it had a generic Chinese battery in it. I replaced the battery for less than $40 (21ah).


----------



## tripplec (Jan 9, 2018)

*Re: The new lithium-ion jumpstarters*

The ones I have looked at have Only One Year Warranty which includes NOCO and that GB150 is a very high cranking spec'd lithium pack. They don't say what but from what they do indicate and the prices is many times the GB30 or 40. I rather have a digital display on voltage and & charge as many offshore units have. I don't care for the LED Noco use. I have two of the chargers and the G1100 works better than the higher rated G3500 which will not charge everything for some reason. Also the G3500 emits a lot of RFI and kills FM signal in my garage which is poor engineering IMO. How they could get them approved with that design is unclear. 

Its extremely difficult to communicate with anyone at NOCO as well. I'll be buying a solution from someone else anyway now. Just not sure who or when.


----------



## SilverFox (Jan 9, 2018)

*Re: The new lithium-ion jumpstarters*

Hello Tripplec,

The GB150 has a digital volt meter and on my unit it is accurate.

I haven't looked at any of their chargers so can't comment on them.

The performance and build seem sound and it will be interesting to see how long the unit lasts. I tend to use it a lot and expect it to last around 3 years. 

I called NOCO and found that if the question involves more than simple use, the person on the other end of the phone doesn't have a "deep" understanding of the unit. I actually had more questions answered by reviewing you tube videos of other users.

I purchased my unit based upon the performance observed from others using it. After a year the only downside I am aware of is that if you drop it from the top of a truck fender, the case cracks. The battery pack is fastened to both sides of the case using sticky foam tape so the case doesn't fly off, but a crack in the case makes it less water resistant. Also, a drop hard enough to crack the case may damage the battery pack. I decided that if I ever drop mine and crack the case, I will just replace it.

Tom


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## tripplec (Jan 9, 2018)

*Re: The new lithium-ion jumpstarters*

I saw that in the lineup of their series and posted US prices as well. They certainly are up their!! The only one with a meter etc and yours would have come with a wall charger that you mentioned I am sure. The GB40 says its option but not listed nor is the part # mentioned. I tried contacting them and as you said the person is hopeless. I filled in an online questionaire for info wanting to speak to an engineer etc. LOL No call back from the. My money stays put and someone else will be in line.

I am sure they use to list a phone number but no more. I don't do social media to contact companies. Phone or email, most chat support have dummies behind the keyboard and copy and paste answers not relevant in many cases.


----------



## tripplec (Jan 11, 2018)

*Re: The new lithium-ion jumpstarters*

This clearly shows that the NOCO is over rated, misleading and not up to scratch against a even lower rated unit. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TW0f-cH0eDc


----------



## Gauss163 (Jan 11, 2018)

*Re: The new lithium-ion jumpstarters*



tripplec said:


> This clearly shows that the NOCO is over rated, misleading and not up to scratch against a even lower rated unit. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TW0f-cH0eDc



Not surprising. Most likely the numbers on all the jump-starter packs are as exaggerated (up to 10x) just like "10000mAh" Ultrafire 18650 cells. It's a never ending spiral of marketing hype.


----------



## SilverFox (Jan 11, 2018)

*Re: The new lithium-ion jumpstarters*

Hello Tripplec,

Interesting video but...

Let's take a critical look at it.

The NOCO units have a battery pack made up of 3 cells. That means that a fully charged pack would have a voltage of 3 X 4.2 = 12.6 volts. The guy in the video measured the pack at 12.11 volts. Taking 12.11 divided by 3 = 4.036 volts per cell. That is only about 80% charged or a little over. 

A better test would have involved a fully charged pack. Since the NOCO uses lights to indicate state of charge and since the state of charge was over 75% it showed 100% which is an error.

Withdrawing the ram showed around 990 watts. Going to my handy Joules to watts conversion calculator I find that 7000 Joules for 3 seconds should give me 2333 watts. When the ram was dead headed the jump pack died as it was not able to keep up with the load.

Looking at the lead acid battery test it would appear that the GB40 should perform similar to the lead acid battery if it is fully charged but at 80% it falls flat on its face. 

For what it is worth... Those that use these jump packs tell me that the GB40 works great for snow machines, 4 wheelers, garden tractors, motorcycles, and small car engines. Larger vehicles are hit and miss and the GB40 is not reliable for them.

I have to agree with Gauss163. The advertising claims seem to be inflated...

Tom


----------



## tripplec (Jan 12, 2018)

*Re: The new lithium-ion jumpstarters*

Yes, smaller engines will work for sure. The competitive comparison used performed far better even though rated much less crank amps. He did a sub zero test as well with 3 different packs, these two plus and Audiovox, since people wanted to know how well it works (its winter when you have to be certain it can perform!!!). It was around -23C if I recall anyway. The Noco failed miserably and that extremely important. As he says and I have to others the Peak is meaningless. Its the steady current that's important to power the load device. Noco does not publish CA or CCA at all and just talk about what size/type of engines it can boost. LOL Yeah right.... overstated IMO as well. 

If you like I can see if I can find the colds test video off the same area this was found. 

OK found it for you. PS I am sure he's charged them more than once. The chargers likely don't finish off where they should as you pointed out and that's what you're dealing with. I know my auto G3500 need to be set a COLD mode to charge my auto battery to 14.5VDC, normal doesn't. It their design and not a great charger either. Anyway, have a look and believe even shocked at the results in the cold where performance is so critical!!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9aJXvvKk2SQ&t=2s


----------



## SilverFox (Jan 12, 2018)

*Re: The new lithium-ion jumpstarters*

Hello Tripplec,

Another interesting video...

A question.

If you hook up your 12.6 volt battery pack and it shows 4.5 volts will it be capable of starting a car?

I was recently at a motel. The temperature overnight was -26 C or -15 F. I walked out to start my car and warm it up when someone approached me about getting a jump. I started my car and pulled out my jump pack that had been in the car all night. Hooked things up and started his 6 cylinder engine without problems. His car had been sitting for two days and had a weak battery. When he initially tried to start the car it turned over a few times and then quit with the starter solenoid clicking.

I did notice the voltage while cranking was down to about 9.0 volts instead of the "usual" 10.5 volts indicating that the cold was effecting the jump pack battery. On top of that my jump pack was only at around 75% charged. 

I was impressed. The NOCO algorithm seems to apply pulses to the dead battery. This seems to allow the jump pack to provide more useful power without generating lots of heat. Although it extreme cold a little heat may actually help.

Tom


----------



## tripplec (Jan 12, 2018)

*Re: The new lithium-ion jumpstarters*

Yes the heat of high current flow through the Lithium pack allowed the second test to provide much higher current in the Car Rover pack. The NOCO never recovered from the first test. Just went dead completely. 

Also a pack in parallel with a wide enough voltage differential will flow current to the main battery. Never the less it likely not get it above 10.5VDC even if left connected for a while. But the source voltage need to be high enough to actually power the motor to turn otherwise being too low its just heat generated with the very low voltage of 4.5V which would not even engage the solenoid or chatter anyway (a good thing since this could burn out a starter motor). Keeping the voltage drop at a minimum is critical in any battery since the power is Voltage x Amps and of course the amount will vary widely which each vehicle. Having a big enough source ensures that it can boost even in adverse condition and even if not fully charged as they claim (X number of starts).

It might work in Florida or California where winter sub zero is never a concern. But both Canada and many parts of the USA temp as in this DEC were very cold. You pay your money for a booster that meets the real marketed spec's and must turn the specified vehicle engine over. Plain and simple, if not a waste of money and the presumed backup tool does not live up to its claim. A for the reviewer who bought them himself and provided the test info images help us weed out the chaff crappy OEM's and products. I know for fact that many sellers forums are limited in what and if a negative review can be added. Hence looking at even Canadian Tire. A Stanley Booster Pack (1000 Peak rated & 500 cranking Amps) pasted on the front is all wrong. I own one and never was able to boost any engine and had to use a different unit/source when needed. Read the small stick on the back and it says 500 for 3 sec and 300 cranking amps. Which may also be less when sub zero which was when the problem always occurred. Turns out Stanley doesn't even make the unit. Some company licensed the use of the name and put it on the unit. They are available under different names. A waste of money for sure on that unit which has a SLA 19AH battery in it. 

Its important for us all to weed out the crappy unit and know when we part our hard earned money, that we are getting value and what we expect for it. Otherwise we just blown it on a expensive paper weight. Companies like Noco which are not up front and fail to disclose real spec's are hiding the facts and truth of inferiority and never meet their claim in the real world.


----------



## SilverFox (Jan 12, 2018)

*Re: The new lithium-ion jumpstarters*

Hello Tripplec,

The whole purpose of testing is to weed out actual performance from the various advertising claims. Prior to purchasing the GB150 I did a lot of research and discussed the unit with several people that had various NOCO units. A couple of the people had all the NOCO units. They told me that for my particular application I should only look at the GB70 and GB150 with a heavy recommendation for the GB150. 

I listened to them and have been very happy with the performance of the GB150. I have no idea if it is capable of providing around 700 amps at 10.5 volts but it has started some large engines with very dead batteries. 

My perspective comes from a real world view. If I encounter a vehicle with a dead battery I have confidence that my NOCO unit will give it a chance to start. The cost was about double of my previous jump pack but its performance justifies the extra cost as far as I am concerned. 

If we remove brand names it would appear that if you are looking for a heavy duty jump pack you would be better off if the unit you were looking at had a Li-Ion battery pack of at least 8 Ah.

Tom


----------



## tripplec (Jan 13, 2018)

*Re: The new lithium-ion jumpstarters*

Yeah, not saying that the GB150 isn't good. Its so much higher capacity and has what the other should have (voltmeter etc) even at half its rated capacity. The Noco claim on the GB150 will suffices for the task you have. Normally we don't expect to have to buy something 2 to 3x over rated to get what will work. From the subzero test even the GB40 would not start my ATV on a cold morning and maybe some sleds either. From the cold test the Noco batteries used must be extremely poor quality to fail so miserably and totally Die as we saw!! No second change when you really need more than one attempt when boosting.

I hope some member post tests and info on units they've bought. Only one I saw had two year warranty. One year is not long enough. I got 5-6years on a Lead acid SLA booster pack battery. Their prices have at least doubled recently hence finding a well designed Li-Ion solution would be money better spent but it needs to last more than a year. Otherwise just get CAA and hope you are where they can come to boost you.


----------



## tripplec (Jan 13, 2018)

*Re: The new lithium-ion jumpstarters*

i was looking for something on Canadian Tire site and looked at the reviews. Now its tagged as TESTED !! LOL People testing have not clue how to do it without the background and/or equipment. Never the less you can look at them here. 
http://www.canadiantire.ca/en/pdp/n...ter-and-power-bank-1000-amp-0111907p.html#srp


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## Gauss163 (Jan 13, 2018)

*Re: The new lithium-ion jumpstarters*

^^^ What does that "tested" badge mean on that site? Of course one should never trust tests unless they provide the necessary information that enables the "test" to be independently reproduced and verified.


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## SilverFox (Jan 13, 2018)

*Re: The new lithium-ion jumpstarters*

Hello Gauss163,

Here  is the testing process...  

Tom


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## Gauss163 (Jan 13, 2018)

*Re: The new lithium-ion jumpstarters*



SilverFox said:


> Here  is the testing process...



Thanks for the (amusing) link. So it seems their "tested" badge is even more meaningless than I surmised (based solely on customer feedback). With that criteria, they'd be slapping tested badges on all of those 10000mAh Ultrafire 18650 cells too given that they have thousands of almost 100% positive feedback from eBay users. They too seem to work the first few times they try to use them in non-demanding devices. Only much later does the truth rear its ugly head....


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## tripplec (Jan 13, 2018)

*Re: The new lithium-ion jumpstarters*

Well that Booster I have now under Eliminator and Dewalt labels aren't worth more than $50. The pumps quit in two year and the lead acid battery is only good for 300A by spec if you get that. The review shows TESTED LOL useless label because I know you can't rely on it. My charging also stopped and I opened up to see if it cold be repair since it had a plug sticking out to connect an extension cord to it. Well, they put a cheap 500mA black basic adapter strapped to the plastic panel with the ends sticking out wired to a circuit board. LOL

Oh no, can't attach a photo. Unsupported oh well. You all have a small black adapter which fits in the palm of your hand. Thats what is iin it with the metal plug sticking out the other side. A Joke as well. You would not boost any 6 or 8 cylinder engine with it. Even 4 cylinder couldn't start when it was new on dead cold day.


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## lumen aeternum (Oct 18, 2021)

So as of Oct 2021, seems the discussion is now on this thread:






Car starter (dead battery) Lithium battery power bank


Ran my 3 year old car battery down to 6 volts in ACC mode - these new cars have TINY batteries! Looking for a powerbank designed to start a dead car battery. I have searched and not found many threads talking about this. Anyone know how many years they should last before the batteries just...




www.candlepowerforums.com


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## fuyume (Oct 29, 2021)

WalkIntoTheLight said:


> A good lead-acid battery will give you at least 5 solid years of use. So by the time you need to use that jumper on your old lead-acid battery, it wouldn't work anyway!


JFTR, last year, I replaced the battery in my F-150 after 8 years of service, 6 of them in Northern New England Winters. Sears Die Hard, baby. They still make them good.


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