# Spotlight Questions



## khq0660 (Apr 13, 2014)

I need a spotlight to see quite clearly at at least 200 to 300 feet. I'm mystified as to how to select a light. I've tried numerous lights, mostly halogens, from several manufacturers. Advertised candlepower numbers and distance numbers don't seem to have anything to do with how bright a light is or how far you can see clearly with a light. Neither does price. What numbers do I look at to select a light, since these numbers are useless? 

I've tried one HID light and the candlepower number on this light seemed deceptive too. I need help understanding some things about HID. First off, what does the term "Pencil beam" mean? Also, how long does it take a typical HID hand held spotlight to warm up to full power? 

I need something that doesn't cost a fortune and something that is light weight, with a 12v lighter plug. 

I see some reasonably priced HID lights from China on ebay. Are these going to work?

I had some old Brinkmann 3M CP lights that were better than some of the pricier, higher CP lights that I've tried. The plugs on these lights were terrible though. The kept losing contact or falling completely out of the socket. I'm tempted to just get some good plugs to put on these old lights, but would like to see first if I can get something a bit brighter for a reasonable price.
Thanks in advance for any advice.


----------



## BVH (Apr 13, 2014)

A "pencil Beam" simply means that the lights reflector is able to gather most of the light produced by the bulb and focus it very tightly into a small diameter beam. The purpose is to allow the light to "throw" further out in distance than a wider, floodier beam. You sacrifice some field of view.

If your budget is around $130 to $140, then the LightForce Blitz 240 is a Great, 100 Watt Halogen, cigarette coil corded handheld. It's a pistol-grip style. It has an excellent performing reflector that can be adjusted easily to go from flood to throw or anything in-between.

Typical HID's will take from 10 to 15 seconds to get fully warmed up and and produce full brightness. They do not like to be turned on and off for short runs. It wears the bulb out much faster. HID's are 3 times more efficient than Halogens. You get three times the brightness for the same amount of battery power consumed and they typically throw further. 

For you relatively short distance requirement, the Blitz would work well and it's fairly light-weight.


----------



## TEEJ (Apr 13, 2014)

A large impediment is that those lights are famous for bogus numbers and for battery death, etc.
For the ranges you mention, a smaller led light might actually work better.


----------



## khq0660 (Apr 13, 2014)

Thanks for your replies. 

I asked a dealer of the Lightforce Blitz 240 what the candle power of this light is and was told 1M CP. I am currently using a relatively expensive 5M CP Halogen that often won't let us see at 100 feet. I know that CP is an unreliable measure, but still, that is quite a difference. How far do you think I could see clearly with the Blitz?

The costly 15M CP HID that I tried did let me see a little further in a tiny, tiny little area, but was very dark outside of that tiny circle. I don't know if this is typical of HIDs. We do have to turn the light on and off quite frequently.

What kind of distance can you see with the LEDs? I thought that they gave much less distance than the Halgens and HIDs. Is that correct?


----------



## khq0660 (Apr 13, 2014)

TEEJ, thanks for your reply. I guess that I'm going to have to go measure some of these distances better. Maybe they are much greater than I thought. There's no way that a little light will allow me to see clearly enough at the distance that I need to see. I guess I must be estimating the distance wrong. My co-workers and I have tried about 15-20 different lights from several manufacturers, ranging from an alleged 200,000 CP to a supposed 15M CP, and none of these has been adequate to see the distance clearly enough. When I have a chance, I'm going to go walk some of the fields and try to get a better measure of them.


----------



## BVH (Apr 13, 2014)

Yes, let us know the actual distance that you're dealing with and what you're trying to see and do so we can have a better idea of what will work best for your needs. Candle Power is simply a measurement of the amount of light hitting a single "point in space". It says nothing about how large the spot and corona are and how far the light with throw. It is not representative of amount of light the spotlight produces. So using a CP measurement is not necessarily going to give you what you're looking for. The Blitz probably IS 1 Mil CP when in its' tightest focus.


----------



## TEEJ (Apr 13, 2014)

khq0660 said:


> TEEJ, thanks for your reply. I guess that I'm going to have to go measure some of these distances better. Maybe they are much greater than I thought. There's no way that a little light will allow me to see clearly enough at the distance that I need to see. I guess I must be estimating the distance wrong. My co-workers and I have tried about 15-20 different lights from several manufacturers, ranging from an alleged 200,000 CP to a supposed 15M CP, and none of these has been adequate to see the distance clearly enough. When I have a chance, I'm going to go walk some of the fields and try to get a better measure of them.



The key concept to absorb, first, is that the average spot light maker's claim about the light's CP is 100% meaningless. You simply have o ignore everything they claim, as testing, and your own personal experience, tell you that they are full of BS.



Once you stop trying to compare a 1 million cp spotlight to a 15 million cp spotlight, after you realize the 1 million cp might be better because the 1 million cp might be closer at least to the truth (Albeit doubtful...) and the 15 million cp light might have 1/2 the throw, etc....you can start to make sense of it all. (NO sense to the cp, just forget claimed cp as a spec)

In real life, the cp is based upon ANSI standards. Also in real life, they don't like using ANSI standards, because REAL numbers are no where NEAR as good as far as marketing goes.



OK - Next issue: See how far you are really talking about. In meters preferentially. 

The throw is measured in terms of the lux at one meter, or the candela (Sort of what the cp is SUPPOSED to be describing...). Lux is how bright the target looks when the light reflects off of it and bounces back to your eyes. You can't SEE lumens...what you do see is the lux from the lumens hitting stuff and bouncing back to your eyes.

A light with 1 million lux at one meter would have a range of over a mile, to the ANSI standard range of 0.25 lux. As most people require more like 1 lux at longer ranges to actually resolve anything, most of us use 1 lux as a more realistic lux limit for range. (Seeing a guy in white a few hundred meters away, etc...)

If the guy is wearing a darker/lower contrast color, the lux required to see him goes up proportionally, with even 15 lux not being enough in some cases.

So, even if rated at a mile of throw, you'd take a half mile as throw to 1 lux (The intensity falls off according to the inverse square law, so its 4x brighter at half the distance, or, 4x dimmer twice as far away, etc...).




That all means that with 1 M cp, you might see a guy in white standing there at 1/2 mile, and at ~ 250 meters, a guy in brown, etc. (Off the top of my head, the math is guesstimated...actual numbers might be close though)


----------



## BVH (Apr 13, 2014)

Having just completed some very high power light testing with beam shots, (Maxabeam, Megaray, Locator) and thinking in terms of Search & Rescue, it would be difficult, even with these lights, to see a motionless human lying on the ground at any more than about 1500 feet with an unaided eye.


----------



## TEEJ (Apr 13, 2014)

BVH said:


> Having just completed some very high power light testing with beam shots, (Maxabeam, Megaray, Locator) and thinking in terms of Search & Rescue, it would be difficult, even with these lights, to see a motionless human lying on the ground at any more than about 1500 feet with an unaided eye.



Quite true.

Standing is hard enough if there's low contrast.



Even in broad daylight, that sort of distance (~ 500 yards) is not that hard, prone, to go unnoticed at.


500 yards is actually really far to see any real detail at in daylight. Scopes and binoculars, etc, can help a lot.


----------



## Onestep (Apr 14, 2014)

If your distances are right you might like these.

Watch the videos.

search the LED forum for TM26 review.


----------



## AnAppleSnail (Apr 14, 2014)

What are you trying to clearly see at 100m? Trees, Parked cars, hidden deer, snakes, SAR victims, hiding people? What color is the target and the background?

What conditions are there? Are you looking across a field, or through dense fog, through the woods, or in an urban area?

What light pollution is there? Do you use optics?


----------



## khq0660 (Apr 14, 2014)

I am trying to see horses. Most of them are dark in color and often times they will be bunched together or next to dark fencing. I need to be able to find them against the dark background, and count the individual horses even when they are the same dark color and bunched together. I will have to turn the light on and off a lot as I drive from one field to the next. The light will be used every night from sundown to sun up. It's every night of the year, so the conditions vary. It is a given that if the fog is dense then I won't likely see much of the horses unless they are near a front fence. The light will be plugged into the 12v outlet in the truck, so I am looking for something without a battery in it. The background light varies depending on which direction I am looking and also on whether the sun is starting to go down or come up. Optics? Forgive my ignorance, but I don't know what that means. Binoculars perhaps? No, I don't use anything like. 

I plan to more accurately measure off a typical distance tomorrow morning and will report back on that. It's a roughly 2000+ acre horse farm divided into various size fields.


----------



## khq0660 (Apr 15, 2014)

I learned that I'm no good at guessing distances. A lot of the fields have views obstructed by hills and trees after the first 300 feet or so,so I will have to walk into these fields or drive behind them anyway, but there are plenty with longer unobstructed views. I picked a mid-size unobstructed view, figuring that if I had enough light, my eyes would be capable at this distance, which measured at 1010 feet. I know that it will likely be impossible to get a light that will carry that far and allow me to see the detail that I need, but how close can I get to that? I'd like to hear any suggestions.

After measuring, I guessed that my current light, the expensive alleged 5M CP light, give me good detail up to maybe 200 feet.


----------



## TEEJ (Apr 15, 2014)

khq0660 said:


> I learned that I'm no good at guessing distances. A lot of the fields have views obstructed by hills and trees after the first 300 feet or so,so I will have to walk into these fields or drive behind them anyway, but there are plenty with longer unobstructed views. I picked a mid-size unobstructed view, figuring that if I had enough light, my eyes would be capable at this distance, which measured at 1010 feet. I know that it will likely be impossible to get a light that will carry that far and allow me to see the detail that I need, but how close can I get to that? I'd like to hear any suggestions.
> 
> After measuring, I guessed that my current light, the expensive alleged 5M CP light, give me good detail up to maybe 200 feet.




If I call that ~ 310 meters, to get some ball park numbers:

To tell that there's something out there, you'd need ~ 1 lux minimum. To get 1 lux at 310 meters, the light needs ~ 100,000 cd (100k cd) to do it.

Depending on how hard it is tell tell one horse from another at 310 meters for you...(How night adapted your vision is, how different they are to you, etc...), you would probably need 5 -15 lux on them to resolve that detail.

5 lux would require ~ 480 k cd

10 lux would require ~ 960,000 cd 

15 lux would require ~ 1,440,000 cd


There are options in these ranges. Depending upon your actual ranges and resolution factors (Your vision, your horses, etc) the answer will most likely lie between the cd's in the above ranges.


For perspective, when calibrating for night shooting, using a scope, a marksman might need ~ 0.5 - 5 lux (On the target) to aim a rifle at a white paper target at those ranges....depending on the night vision of the shooter, etc.


Also keep in mind that the lux and cd estimates are based upon actual performance, not advertising claims, etc.


Do you have a budget for this?


----------



## khq0660 (Apr 15, 2014)

A candela = 1 CP, correct? So, for the desired 15 lux I would need 1,440,000 CP? My current supposed 5M CP light doesn't come anywhere close to carrying that far. My previous supposed 3M CP light carried further than the current light, but still didn't carry quite that far. So, since advertised CP doesn't mean anything, how do I find a light that will actually provide the desired 15 lux---or at least something much closer to the 15 lux than my current light? Thanks.


----------



## TEEJ (Apr 15, 2014)

khq0660 said:


> A candela = 1 CP, correct? So, for the desired 15 lux I would need 1,440,000 CP? My current supposed 5M CP light doesn't come anywhere close to carrying that far. My previous supposed 3M CP light carried further than the current light, but still didn't carry quite that far. So, since advertised CP doesn't mean anything, how do I find a light that will actually provide the desired 15 lux---or at least something much closer to the 15 lux than my current light? Thanks.



This is where objective testing by members of this forum comes in handy.



IE: We test things for our own use, and, you can glean info from that.

If I knew your budget, I could make some suggestions to try out. I am imagining that the scope of work you are doing is to protect a significant investment, or, you could just wait 'til daylight to check on them, etc. That would imply that to do it properly, the cost/benefit ratio would allow a significant outlay.

There are some HID lights and some LED lights that could work.

One factor that may be an issue is that the lights ALL concentrate the beam into a small spot to have enough juice to hit distant targets....so that you won't see much at a time.

With a 1.2º beam angle for example, at 310 meters, the spot would be roughly 5.6 meters across (~ 18' or so)



Some data on some known spot lights commonly found on shelves:

3 MILLION CP Brinkman Q-Beam III = ~ 96k cd/1,200 lumens

2 MILLION CP Brinkman Q-Beam II = ~ 88k cd/820 lumens

1 MILLION CP Brinkman Q-Beam I = ~ 24.8 k cd/564 Lumens


As you can see, while there is a slightly proportional trend, its not even close to accurate as far as output.


To go out on a limb, and take the roughly 200' that you feel your fake 5 million cp light is outputting, that's ~ 61 meters.

Now, it might have been 200 meters not 200', as you were a bit hazy on your distance estimates before.

If you can tell us the actual range the actual fake light WAS OK at for your needs, and the specific make/model of the fake light, we might be able to use that to "calibrate" what you need in real life.


----------



## khq0660 (Apr 15, 2014)

Unfortunately the farm went out and bought several of the current crummy light after we discovered that the plugs on it are good, so I'm not in a position to ask them to provide a different light for me at this time, so I'm on my own buying another light for myself. If I really had to go over $200, it would be quite painful to me--not impossible, but painful. The Blitz recommended above is a great price, but perhaps it isn't strong enough for my purpose?


----------



## BVH (Apr 15, 2014)

I just sold off my last Blitz 240 otherwise, I could shoot it at 350 Yards. I firmly believe it will do the job. It has a nicely focused beam that throws further than what you need but it also has good spill so the field of view would be acceptable at that range. It is actually a little more than 100 Watts when plugged in to a vehicle with its' engine running (higher supply Voltage).


----------



## TEEJ (Apr 15, 2014)

khq0660 said:


> Unfortunately the farm went out and bought several of the current crummy light after we discovered that the plugs on it are good, so I'm not in a position to ask them to provide a different light for me at this time, so I'm on my own buying another light for myself. If I really had to go over $200, it would be quite painful to me--not impossible, but painful. The Blitz recommended above is a great price, but perhaps it isn't strong enough for my purpose?



The Blitz is rated at ~ 730k cd.

The HID version is rated at ~ the 1.44 million cd you need though....albeit the HID version is going to be more expensive than the halogen version.



There are also options such as:

http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?361206-New-LEMAX-LX70-Killer-Polarion-PH50








Depending on if someone dies and leaves you $/lottery win, etc.


----------



## BVH (Apr 15, 2014)

Chances are the rating is at 12.6 nominal Volts. An extra 1 to 1.5 Volts makes a big difference. Beyond the numbers calculations, I've seen what it does at that range.


----------



## TEEJ (Apr 15, 2014)

BVH said:


> Chances are the rating is at 12.6 nominal Volts. An extra 1 to 1.5 Volts makes a big difference. Beyond the numbers calculations, I've seen what it does at that range.



I suppose the cig lighter's fuse/actual current will dictate some of that.

The issue I run into on long distance searching, is that there is a fairly large discrepancy between a light's range, for the enthusiast who wants to see the beam hit something, and a searcher who needs to resolve details about a target. 

IE: Its easier to see that there's some horses off in the distance, and harder to know if its PARTICULAR horses off in the distance, etc. Binoculars with good light gathering are really useful in that regard BTW.




Too bad they probably won't let you just fit them (The horsies) with individual colored lights, so you can see the lights and know who they are, etc.

A drone to overfly the locations would also really speed things up.


----------



## AnAppleSnail (Apr 15, 2014)

I have one of the newer "10W" LED spotlights that have pretty good performance. The Li-Ion battery works well for runtime, and it runs off a ciggy socket pretty well.

I have a treeline across the road from my house. According to Google Maps, it's about 250 feet to the trees. I have never seen deer there, but I can count tree trunks with a Stanely 10W LED light. They also sell one with Black & Decker branding, if you like Black and red more than Black and yellow. It costs about $50 at Wal Mart, but it would only kinda-sorta give the performance you need.

I can't exactly go spotlighting people's horses and cows to test the performance of mine at different ranges.


----------



## TEEJ (Apr 15, 2014)

AnAppleSnail said:


> I have one of the newer "10W" LED spotlights that have pretty good performance. The Li-Ion battery works well for runtime, and it runs off a ciggy socket pretty well.
> 
> I have a treeline across the road from my house. According to Google Maps, it's about 250 feet to the trees. I have never seen deer there, but I can count tree trunks with a Stanely 10W LED light. They also sell one with Black & Decker branding, if you like Black and red more than Black and yellow. It costs about $50 at Wal Mart, but it would only kinda-sorta give the performance you need.
> 
> I can't exactly go spotlighting people's horses and cows to test the performance of mine at different ranges.



Tree trunks can be counted with 1 lux typically, and at 250' that would take ~ 6k cd. That's a bit low if that were a test of its throw...its probably throwing better than that, if you had a farther target, etc.


----------



## khq0660 (Apr 15, 2014)

The mega flashlight in the link above is more than a little pricey. I'm thinking right now that I'll price the Blitz and the Blitz HID and maybe try them out. According to your ratings, both the Blitz and the Blitz HID are much stronger than anything I've had so far, and should be a big improvement.

I roughly affirmed the 200 foot clear visibility number for my current spotlight today after I went out into a field with a tape measure. I imagine day shift thought I'd lost my mind out in a field with the snow falling on me, with a tape measure. I am kind of guessing as to how far my eyes will allow me to see with proper light, but my guess is based on looking at those same fields countless times with various lights. 

Oh, and my current light seems to provide the same amount of illumination as a small Brinkmann 200,000 Cp light that we have. The current light is much weaker than the 3M Brinkmann we have. I hesitate to give the name of the current light now that I've said bad things about it.


----------



## khq0660 (Apr 15, 2014)

I went ahead and ordered the Blitz. I did not get the HID since it was too expensive for me. Thank you everyone for your help. Hopefully this light will actually let me see something out in the fields.


----------



## BVH (Apr 15, 2014)

Please report back on your findings so we gauge our abilities to accurately recommend lights. And remember to use the light with the engine running for best performance. That extra Volt+ does make a difference.


----------



## TEEJ (Apr 15, 2014)

khq0660 said:


> I went ahead and ordered the Blitz. I did not get the HID since it was too expensive for me. Thank you everyone for your help. Hopefully this light will actually let me see something out in the fields.



Its 730 k cd is no slouch.

If you need between 5-10 lux at your longest range, it will be fine. If you need more than that, just get closer. You still will not have to get as close as you would have with the other affordable lights.



Definetely report back as to how it worked for you.


----------



## Sway (Apr 15, 2014)

BVH steered you in the right direction with the Blitz, it's hard to beat his knowledge and first hand experience when it comes to big throwie lights 

These pic's were made at different times as you can tell by the foliage on the trees but the distance is the same.

Daytime reference, distance to the white mail box post is a little over 100 yards, the utility pole in the field behind it is 200 yards plus... 




LightForce Blitz SL240




Cheers!
Kelly


----------



## khq0660 (Apr 15, 2014)

Thanks for the photos. I'm anxious for my light to get here so I can try it out.


----------



## Onestep (Apr 16, 2014)

Now how are you going to handle the other hands jealousy?


----------



## khq0660 (Apr 16, 2014)

We'll see about the jealousy. Forgive me if I'm skeptical. I've been through so many lights that either were dim or they broke after a few days use, or the most common problem is that they have terrible plugs that don't keep contact or fall completely out all night every night.


----------



## TEEJ (Apr 16, 2014)

khq0660 said:


> We'll see about the jealousy. Forgive me if I'm skeptical. I've been through so many lights that either were dim or they broke after a few days use, or the most common problem is that they have terrible plugs that don't keep contact or fall completely out all night every night.



There are mil spec type plug sets, such as used to make cig lighter plug sets for the crew served weapon lights on humvees, etc. (Amphenol, etc)


These are very tough, weather proof connectors that would not be the weak link in your set up.


----------



## khq0660 (Apr 16, 2014)

Are the plugs on the light I just ordered any good? Where do I get these good plugs that you mention? The plug on my current, dim light is great. I was thinking that if I need a different plug to put on a new, good light, I would order some of those plugs, but maybe the ones that you mention are even better.

I fried the outlets on the trucks numerous times using lights with bad plugs because I had to keep pushing the bad plugs back into the socket over and over every night. My current, fake 5M CP light is great and stays in and I haven't yet fried a socket yet with it.


----------



## TEEJ (Apr 16, 2014)

khq0660 said:


> Are the plugs on the light I just ordered any good? Where do I get these good plugs that you mention? The plug on my current, dim light is great. I was thinking that if I need a different plug to put on a new, good light, I would order some of those plugs, but maybe the ones that you mention are even better.
> 
> I fried the outlets on the trucks numerous times using lights with bad plugs because I had to keep pushing the bad plugs back into the socket over and over every night. My current, fake 5M CP light is great and stays in and I haven't yet fried a socket yet with it.



Hmmm, I never bought one from a dealer/supplier..I just get them from people I hang with who had crew served weapons with lights that used them.

Surefire has them I believe, and some of the guys that do these, might chime in with good sources. Googling Amphenol might give you a lead too.


----------



## khq0660 (Apr 16, 2014)

I'll have all sorts of questions about plugs if it turns out that the plug is bad on the new light.


----------



## TEEJ (Apr 16, 2014)

khq0660 said:


> I'll have all sorts of questions about plugs if it turns out that the plug is bad on the new light.



My guess is that its a decent plug....Good Luck!


----------



## khq0660 (Apr 19, 2014)

I got my new light. I love it. I can see! Thanks for suggesting it. I never would have known to get a light advertised as having 4M CP less than my old light in order to get a brighter one. The plug looks like it will be good. The coiled cord is a little short. Will it hurt to stretch it out a bit? I've run my hand down some in the past and stretched them, being careful not to tug on the connection to the light or the plug, and they've been fine, but there was a cheap one where I did this, and it stopped working.


----------



## Sway (Apr 19, 2014)

Stretching the cord a little without pulling on the connections shouldn't hurt anything. If thats not enough you could upgrade to a longer cord with a larger wire gauge, this will require some soldering.


----------



## BVH (Apr 19, 2014)

Glad you're happy with it. Be sure to test out the manual focus method by turning the reflector both directions to get the tight spot or wide flood or something in-between - what ever works best for your situation. You should be able to buy coil extension cords.


----------



## khq0660 (Apr 20, 2014)

Another nightwatch person tried it last night and was thrilled with it too. We've both seen parts of fields with it that we've always had to either walk out to, or drive around behind a field to see. We've tried so many inadequate lights in the past that we didn't think we'd get a light that was adequate. Now if you can find a gadget that lets me see through hills and trees, I'll be all set. 

In theory, should CP give you an idea of how bright a light is? I can't believe that these light manufacturers can get away with advertising their lights as being much more powerful than they actually are. There must be a law against this.


----------



## FRITZHID (Apr 20, 2014)

Wait till you see a maxabeam in person, imo the finest in handheld CP.


----------



## Echo63 (Apr 20, 2014)

khq0660 said:


> Another nightwatch person tried it last night and was thrilled with it too. We've both seen parts of fields with it that we've always had to either walk out to, or drive around behind a field to see. We've tried so many inadequate lights in the past that we didn't think we'd get a light that was adequate. Now if you can find a gadget that lets me see through hills and trees, I'll be all set.
> 
> In theory, should CP give you an idea of how bright a light is? I can't believe that these light manufacturers can get away with advertising their lights as being much more powerful than they actually are. There must be a law against this.


Glad you are happy with your new light.

And yes CP should tell you how bright a light is, in the bright spot of the beam, providing the manufacturer is telling the truth.

Heres an example of a Gen2 Maxabeam, with a slightly different to stock bulb
manufacturer says 6million CP, I tested it at 7.2million CP (on high) - the building is around 3000feet away - and this pic is at normal power, it gets a bit brighter on high


----------



## FRITZHID (Apr 20, 2014)

Yeah pictures are great (I admired them for quite some time), but once you hold that piece of milspec illuminary hardware in your hand, hit that power button and tighten that focus to a laser like beam.... you'll never want to hold another wow-light. Lol


----------



## khq0660 (Apr 20, 2014)

I did a quick Google of the Maxabeam and they looked pretty expensive. For now I'll have to content myself with the Lightforce. I think it's enough to get the job done. Heck, I've been doing the job for a few years now with a lot less light power. It just got a lot easier.

So, how do these manufacturers determine what CP to advertise their lights at? Do they just randomly make it up? There must be some system.


----------



## TEEJ (Apr 20, 2014)

khq0660 said:


> I did a quick Google of the Maxabeam and they looked pretty expensive. For now I'll have to content myself with the Lightforce. I think it's enough to get the job done. Heck, I've been doing the job for a few years now with a lot less light power. It just got a lot easier.
> 
> So, how do these manufacturers determine what CP to advertise their lights at? Do they just randomly make it up? There must be some system.



If its honest, there's an actual ANSI standard that the light's performance is SUPPOSED to be based upon.

The light's REAL cp SHOULD be cd if its real....as cp is NOT standardized, and its WHY the fake ones use cp instead of cd.

Obviously a real cp and cd would be at least similar, but, generally, cd is at least held to a standard....so a rating or advertisement in cd, TENDS to mean its more reliable.

The cd is the lumens per square meter, at a range of one meter. (A lux is equal to the lumens per square meter, so, the cd is also the lux at one meter)

Lumens are what a light sends out, lux is what bounces back off the target so you can SEE IT. (You can't see lumens)

A light's cd is measured at the most intense part of its hot spot, and can be used to calculate the light's range, using the inverse square law.

Essentially, how bright the target will look will be 1/4 as bright at double the distance, or, 4x brighter if twice as close, etc.

That just means that if you know a light's cd, you can figure out how many lux it will put on a target at any given distance.


----------



## sven_m (Apr 20, 2014)

TEEJ said:


> The light's REAL cp SHOULD be cd if its real....as cp is NOT standardized, and its WHY the fake ones use cp instead of cd.



I always think of the multi-mega-CandlePower as if they were cheekily calculated as follows:

Imagine there was another light for comparison without reflector, just the bulb.
How bright would this bulb have to be to yield the "astounding" lux of the 100W H4 spot *with* reflector?
Salesman: "This must be legit! Can't you see it?: It's just as if it had these CP."


----------



## khq0660 (Apr 20, 2014)

It's a whole new language to learn.


----------



## Echo63 (Apr 20, 2014)

FRITZHID said:


> Yeah pictures are great (I admired them for quite some time), but once you hold that piece of milspec illuminary hardware in your hand, hit that power button and tighten that focus to a laser like beam.... you'll never want to hold another wow-light. Lol


Oh Yea, i completely understand - i still giggle like a small child every time i fire mine up.
its even better if you have a pair - one for each hand.


----------



## TEEJ (Apr 21, 2014)

Originally Posted by *FRITZHID* 

 
Yeah pictures are great (I admired them for quite some time), but once you hold that piece of milspec illuminary hardware in your hand, hit that power button and tighten that focus to a laser like beam.... you'll never want to hold another wow-light. Lol


​







Echo63 said:


> Oh Yea, i completely understand - i still giggle like a small child every time i fire mine up.
> its even better if you have a pair - one for each hand.



Now imagine you HAD a laser beam....instead of just "LIKE a laser beam"

:devil:


----------



## Echo63 (Apr 21, 2014)

TEEJ said:


> Originally Posted by *FRITZHID*
> 
> 
> Yeah pictures are great (I admired them for quite some time), but once you hold that piece of milspec illuminary hardware in your hand, hit that power button and tighten that focus to a laser like beam.... you'll never want to hold another wow-light. Lol
> ...



i had a fairly powerful green laser - it was fun, but didnt have the wow factor of shining a big spot of light on stuff, actually being able to see a kilometre in the dark is a lot lore fun than just shining a tiny dot

because of idiots shining them at helicopters, lasers are very hard to get hold of here in Aus - the maxabeam is perfectly legal though


----------



## TEEJ (Apr 21, 2014)

Echo63 said:


> i had a fairly powerful green laser - it was fun, but didnt have the wow factor of shining a big spot of light on stuff, actually being able to see a kilometre in the dark is a lot lore fun than just shining a tiny dot
> 
> because of idiots shining them at helicopters, lasers are very hard to get hold of here in Aus - the maxabeam is perfectly legal though



There was a used Maxabeam in CPFM IIRC if anyone wants one, cheap.


----------



## khq0660 (Apr 21, 2014)

Just out of curiosity, how much is one of the Maxabeams that you are talking about? That's what you were shining on the building in the photo, correct?


----------



## FRITZHID (Apr 21, 2014)

Echo63 said:


> i had a fairly powerful green laser - it was fun, but didnt have the wow factor of shining a big spot of light on stuff, actually being able to see a kilometre in the dark is a lot lore fun than just shining a tiny dot
> 
> because of idiots shining them at helicopters, lasers are very hard to get hold of here in Aus - the maxabeam is perfectly legal though



Yes, I have several high power lasers as well.... 50mw, 300mw and a 5W dpss green lasers, a 100mw red, a 50mw royal blue and a 300mw IR... all of which are capable of burning, and then there's the crown jewel of my lasers, a 120W CO². They are fun but extreme caution MUST be used with them all... a maxabeam is for all intents and purposes, harmless. But still allot of fun!


----------



## FRITZHID (Apr 21, 2014)

khq0660 said:


> Just out of curiosity, how much is one of the Maxabeams that you are talking about? That's what you were shining on the building in the photo, correct?



The older versions can be found for a few hundred dollars, I got my gen2 for $500, gen3 are higher, I've seen them for around $700, brand new for $2000-4000


----------



## BVH (Apr 21, 2014)

There are usually at least 2 for sale on Ebay at any given time.


----------



## TEEJ (Apr 21, 2014)

FRITZHID said:


> Yes, I have several high power lasers as well.... 50mw, 300mw and a 5W dpss green lasers, a 100mw red, a 50mw royal blue and a 300mw IR... all of which are capable of burning, and then there's the crown jewel of my lasers, a 120W CO². They are fun but extreme caution MUST be used with them all... a maxabeam is for all intents and purposes, harmless. But still allot of fun!



5 WATT Green?

:twothumbs


----------



## FRITZHID (Apr 21, 2014)

TEEJ said:


> 5 WATT Green?
> 
> :twothumbs



Yup, built it about 4 yrs ago. Has a 25mm beam aperture and burns like crazy.... tho need very dark laser glasses to even look where it hits, lol.


----------



## TEEJ (Apr 21, 2014)

FRITZHID said:


> Yup, built it about 4 yrs ago. Has a 25mm beam aperture and burns like crazy.... tho need very dark laser glasses to even look where it hits, lol.



DAYUM.




My best burner is a pocket laser, 445 nm ~ 3 watt (ms envy host, the body is the heat sink).

Your rig sounds insane.

:twothumbs


----------



## FRITZHID (Apr 21, 2014)

Yeah but it's not exactly pocket friendly, lol.
It's Peltier cooled and has separate power supply and resonator head, which is about the size of 4 packs of cigarettes, lol.


----------



## Echo63 (Apr 21, 2014)

TEEJ said:


> There was a used Maxabeam in CPFM IIRC if anyone wants one, cheap.


Yea they come up every few months - i got both of mine from the MP



khq0660 said:


> Just out of curiosity, how much is one of the Maxabeams that you are talking about? That's what you were shining on the building in the photo, correct?


Yes thats a Maxabeam - Gen2 with ushio bulb in ParkerVH adapters (my gen3 outthrows it though)

my Gen2 was $700 and the Gen3 was $1000, but the gen3 came with a pelican case, long power lead, spare bulb kit

you may be able to find the light unit with a faulty battery or without a battery for a it cheaper


----------



## TEEJ (Apr 21, 2014)

Echo63 said:


> Yea they come up every few months - i got both of mine from the MP
> 
> 
> Yes thats a Maxabeam - Gen2 with ushio bulb in ParkerVH adapters (my gen3 outthrows it though)
> ...



If running off a truck's power instead, the versions w/o a battery, etc, would be a great way to save some $.


----------



## BVH (Apr 21, 2014)

Sure would! Smaller, much lighter, easy to maneuver and easy to make a Cig/power outlet adapter. Latching High mode is something you would want so you're not relegated to running at 50 Watts. PeakBeam provides latching High on Gen3 models with the LiFePo4 battery option but I'm not sure about remote powered lights. You'd need to ask them about it.

But then again, if the Blitz is doing a great job, maybe leave a good thing alone.


----------



## TEEJ (Apr 21, 2014)

BVH said:


> Sure would! Smaller, much lighter, easy to maneuver and easy to make a Cig/power outlet adapter. Latching High mode is something you would want so you're not relegated to running at 50 Watts. PeakBeam provides latching High on Gen3 models with the LiFePo4 battery option but I'm not sure about remote powered lights. You'd need to ask them about it.
> 
> But then again, if the Blitz is doing a great job, maybe leave a good thing alone.



Yeah, there's still the Blitz's HID version too.


----------



## FRITZHID (Apr 22, 2014)

TEEJ said:


> Yeah, there's still the Blitz's HID version too.



Only downfall of HID over the others is lack of instant full brightness. Halogen and short arc can fire up and restart very fast whereas hid takes time to warm up to full power and restriking is harmful to the bulb.


----------



## khq0660 (Apr 22, 2014)

BVH said:


> But then again, if the Blitz is doing a great job, maybe leave a good thing alone.



If this was meant for me, I just asked about the expensive light out of curiosity. The Blitz will probably do all I need it to do. Any foals lying down in the grass beyond the distance of the Blitz I'm guessing will likely either be beyond the distance my eyes work, or will be obscured by trees or hills anyway. The true test will be in a short while when more of the horses start staying out all night now that the weather is getting better.


----------



## Sway (Apr 22, 2014)

FYI: Replacement bulb for the SL240 is an Osram 62138 if you want to pick up a spare, Google for the best price


----------



## khq0660 (Jun 2, 2014)

Well, the Lightforce 240 was great while it lasted. After 1 1/2 months of use, the light developed a bad short and is useless now. I'm back to using the fake 5M CP light, which would barely pass for a reading lamp, but at least it turns on and stays on.


----------



## BVH (Jun 2, 2014)

Are you going to return it under warranty? Is the short in the light or the cord?


----------



## khq0660 (Jun 2, 2014)

I got the voicemail at Lightforce when I called to discuss a repair/exchange, so I'm waiting to hear back. I don't want to go back to using the other lights now that I've found out what it's like to actually see something. I don't know where the short is. I found that if I turned the light in just the right direction with my hand tipped at just the right angle it would come back on briefly. Does that tell you where the short is?


----------



## BVH (Jun 2, 2014)

In technical terms, it's not a short, it's a momentary "open". A short would pop the fuse in the cig lighter plug or the vehicle fuse. My guess is the most likely place for a broken wire is where the cord enters the red plastic piece of the handle or where it enters the cig lighter plug. Turn the light switch on (if you can feel the diff between on and off - it's a subtle diff) and wiggle the wire at the handle and cig plug and chances are it will go on and off with movement. Hopefully, they will send you a new light and pay to have you ship the broken one back to them.


----------



## khq0660 (Jun 11, 2014)

They didn't reimburse me for shipping them the light, but they did send a new one for free. I can live with that. It's amazing how much more difficult my job is with the other, crummy lights.


----------



## kuna (Jun 11, 2014)

The lightforce Blitz appears to be the same light, or same type of light, that some sellers on ebay have (poorly) modded to fit a 55W HID bulb and ballast. It seems that they should have left it alone because 720k cd is amazingly bright for a light in that price range. May have to get one myself. It would be great if there was one that worked off a rechargeable battery also. As others have said those "5MCP" and "1MCP" lights are crap and are probably only about 60,000 true cd based on similar lights I've tested. Glad you have finally have a real spotlight to work with.


----------



## BVH (Jun 12, 2014)

Same "type" but definitely not the same light.


----------



## kuna (Jun 12, 2014)

Yep more like a Chinese knockoff of the Blitz 240. I really wish they made this light with a rechargeable battery option as well.


----------



## khq0660 (Sep 10, 2014)

I'm back. I'm currently on my 4th Blitz 240. The first one broke, but they sent me a replacement, which was then stolen. So, I bought a new one. After about 3 months, it stopped working. I'm waiting to hear if they will fix it for me. In the meantime, I bought a new one. I'm having an issue with the latest one that maybe you folks could help me with. This new one seemed normal for a couple of days, but then all of a sudden the shape of the beam changed and it seemed much dimmer and didn't project as far. I made sure it was set all the way to spotlight rather than flood. The beam was shaped like an hour glass. I took the globe off and put it back on, and it got rid of the hour glass shape, but the beam still doesn't seem as strong as my earlier Blitz lights. Can anyone tell me what's going on? Thanks.


----------



## JP Labs (Sep 10, 2014)

I've never even held a Blitz, but I can comment in a very general way. 

If the lamp still seems strong and bright, then hopefully this is only a mechanical problem. I would look for something that is slightly dislocated. It sounds like maybe the lamp is not accurately moving into the focal point of the reflector. If reinstalling the globe helped, then that seems to confirm the issue is at least partly caused by the way it is put together. Make sure the focus mechanism is moving all the way. If I were in your place, I would take the thing apart and look for anything out of place. Starting with making sure the lamp is correctly seated.


----------



## khq0660 (Sep 12, 2014)

Well, I tried messing with the bulb and the reflector and couldn't fix the problem. The guy at Lightforce said I could mail the light to them and they'd adjust it. I hate to be without it for so long, but I'd hate to break something by fooling with it too much. There was a blurb in the instructions that made me wonder though. I didn't understand it, and the Lightforce guy said he doubted it was relevant. Here it is: "ii. Position the globe legs firmly into the fixed electrodes of the globe holder, applying a firm pressure towards the rear..... iii. Mere placement of the globe into the globe holder is often not sufficient to give a properly fine tuned beam. The operator can overcome this by aligning the split line along the top of the rotation locking NIB and the split line on the end of the handle with the centre of the globe filament." I'm not sure if this means that the bulb has to be in flat on the horizontal or the vertical, or whether it is sufficient that the line be pointing directly at the middle of the filament. I am unable to turn the bulb clockwise or counterclockwise to make it vertical or horizontal.


----------



## NoNotAgain (Sep 12, 2014)

If I had as many problems with the Blitz, I'd dump that thing in the river and get a used Surefire Hellfighter. While it may only be 35 watts, it throws 500+ yards and is built like a tank. Plus the warranty from SUrefire is lifetime, not one year.

My Dad has one of the 15-18 million candle power HID lights that gets used so infrequently that when the time comes to actually use it the batteries are flat and won't take a charge. After a set of batteries every year or so, he could have had a nice light that was powered via a lithium or 12 volt power source.


----------



## BVH (Sep 12, 2014)

The lamp nor the lamp holder can be rotated in the plastic handle. The holder is riveted in-place.

This is from memory since I sold my last Blitz a while ago. Unscrew the reflector and take it off. Put your eye at the back of the handle and sight along the top "seam" of the plastic tube then to the certerline of the plastic tang that sort of locks the reflector from turning and finally to the lamp filament. Adjust the lamp in the holder until the middle of the filament is directly in-line with the handle seam. You could also simply use a fine metal scale (finely graduated ruler) and identify the center of the lamp holder and make sure the middle of the filament is directly in-line with the center. That's probably the easier method. We'll call this the Horizontal alignment.

Then check Vertical alignment by looking at the lamp body from the side and make sure the glass body doesn't tilt up or down as it projects out from the lamps' metal pins. 

Look closely at the reflector and the plastic lens. Do you see any distortions that may have been caused by heat? Any distortions in either of these pieces will distort the beam. Is the glass lamp body a jewel-like "clear" or is there a slight tinting/darkening of the glass?


----------



## khq0660 (Sep 12, 2014)

Is that Hellfighter the one that I just Googled which costs about $5000?? I'm somewhat used to things going wrong with spotlights. When the lights aren't going out on me, the 12v outlets on the truck are blowing out. It seems, with any brand I've used, that you can't move the light at all or else the cords eventually break. Perhaps none of the cheaper lights are designed for the amount of use I put them through. This time of year I'm on the smaller farm route and still I turn the light on easily 100 times during each night. I have to move the light to hold it out the window and scan and then when I have to get out or use both hands for faster driving between fields, I have to move the light again to set it down. I never extend the coil cord fully, but there is a little pull on the cord if I'm extending it beyond the fully retracted position, which happens when I have to scan both sides of the road while driving or if I have to hold it higher because a fence is high relative to the road at some places. If you folks can figure out for me how I can avoid killing these lights, I'd appreciate it.


----------



## khq0660 (Sep 12, 2014)

When I eyeball it to see if the bulb is in line, it looks fine. However, when I run a piece of paper along the line on the handle to see if it's in line, it seems quite off--more off than I'm able to fix. I don't know whether the eyeball method or the paper method is wrong. When my completely broken light if fixed and returned to me, I guess I'll send this one to them and see what they can do with it.


----------



## NoNotAgain (Sep 12, 2014)

Ebay has the Hellfighter lights, used for average price of under $500. Yeah, it's more than the Blitz, but it's a quality light. 

As for the power cords, have you thought of cutting off the cigarette lighter plug and hard wiring with a fuse inline? There are quite a few male-female connectors that are rated for 10 plus amps.


----------



## khq0660 (Sep 12, 2014)

I really can't modify anything on the work truck. There would have to be no visible or functional changes in the truck, and the light would have to be removed everyday. Which problem would be solved by hard wiring it? I have blown a couple of 12v outlets with the Blitz, but the Blitz does have a pretty good plug on it, so I haven't blown the outlets like I did with the lights that had crummy plugs.


How does the brightness and distance of the Hellfighter compare to that of the Blitz? $500 is a fortune to me, but I'll look them over.


----------



## NoNotAgain (Sep 12, 2014)

khq0660 said:


> Which problem would be solved by hard wiring it? I have blown a couple of 12v outlets with the Blitz, but the Blitz does have a pretty good plug on it, so I haven't blown the outlets like I did with the lights that had crummy plugs.
> 
> 
> How does the brightness and distance of the Hellfighter compare to that of the Blitz? $500 is a fortune to me, but I'll look them over.



Cigarette lighter plugs make contact on a small area which is why they aren't used for high amp devices. 

A simple wiring harness attached to the battery gives you direct wiring and a bi-pole connector allows for more contact area for the connection. 
Think of the connector like the connection for trailer lights. 

Yes, spending $500 on a light is a lot of money, but if you look at the Hellfighter thread below this one, you can see beam shots. 

I have a large pasture behind the house that has a tree line 500 yards or so away, where the deer congregate just before dusk. Once the weather changes, they come down to the house to feed on the shrubs. I light them up with the Hellfighter which freezes them in their tracks. 
I haven't got the crop hunters permit yet due to the deer having ticks and fleas. Once the first hard frost hits, they'll make for good eating without having to deal with the bugs.


----------



## BVH (Sep 12, 2014)

The Hellfighter and any HID light is not going to last long being turned on 100 times a night. I think I'd cut the cig lighter plug off the end of the Blitz cord but leave some cable. Then with 4 pairs of the automotive quick-connect/disconnect connectors of your choice, install them onto the two ends of a 15' or 20' piece of simple thin, easy to handle 14 awg lamp cord, onto the remaining Blitz cord and onto the cig lighter plug. With the extra 15' of cord, you won't be putting any strain on any of the cords or the cig lighter plug and vehicle receptical and you won't be having to tug against the coil cord all the time. You're not having to modify the work truck either.


----------



## khq0660 (Sep 12, 2014)

Thanks everyone for the replies. I actually do have a Blitz extension cord, which stopped all of the tugging, but the light got a little dimmer when I used it. Will I lose any of my light power with the above set up? I tried one HID light and found that it took too long to warm up each time I turned it on. Since I only tried one, I don't know if that's typical for HIDs. The part of the beam where anything could be seen at distance was too narrow on that one HID I tried, but it might just have been an inferior HID light. It was made by the same people that made my fake 5M CP light.


----------



## BVH (Sep 12, 2014)

Fast warm up HID's cost a couple grand or more. The problem still remains that HID lights are not made for lots of on/off cycles. It will kill the lamp in very short order. And the ballast will be next.

What AWG/gauge is your extension cable? Increased wire length adds resistance which steals Voltage which dims the output. Going with larger conductors/wires reduces resistance. IIRC, the Blitz is a 130 Watt lamp? If so, about 10.5 Amps has to go thru the wire and 16 or 18 gauge wire will cause significant Voltage drop. Is the wire marked on the insulation? 12 AWG would even be better. If you buy the slightly more expensive high strand count, silicone jacketed wire, it will still be easy to handle. here's a partial link to this wire if you want to try it. It's about $1.50 per foot for the 12 AWG.

ww.robotmarketplace.com/products/0C-WSD01R.html

Comes in black and red.

What connectors are you using? They can also create lots of extra resistance. Have you felt the connector and wire when running for a period of time? Are any of them warmer than ambient temp? If so, the wire or connectors are not large enough.


----------



## khq0660 (Sep 13, 2014)

Thanks for the link. I don't see any info about the extension cord I tried, either on the cord or the packaging. It is the Lightforce 8ft extension power cord. I quit using it fairly quickly because the light dimmed too much with it. It's been awhile, so I don't recall if it heated up at all. An extension cord is a better bet for me than the hard-wiring suggested above, because management would have to approve it and maintenance install it. Perhaps if I fried a few more outlets they might be willing, but I suspect the suggestion wouldn't be received happily just yet.


----------



## BVH (Sep 13, 2014)

Maybe I was not clear above. You'd be making your own "extension cord", not hard-wiring into the cig lighter socket. The original Blitz cig plug still goes into the lighter socket as before. But you're splicing in a 10' or so piece of #12 wires after you've cut the Blitz original cord a foot or so after the cig plug. But maybe for your purposes, maintenance still considers this a vehicle modification so they must do it? But, I would think the factory extension cord would be of sufficient wire gauge to handle the current without adding too much resistance but your observation says No.


----------



## khq0660 (Sep 13, 2014)

Oops, sorry. I didn't read carefully above. I was stuck trying to figure out the "wiring harness" suggestion above, while not having any relevant expertise. I see now that I would only be modifying the light and not the truck with the more recent suggestion. I wish that I could find the gauge on the Lightforce extension cord. I'll keep trying to find that, and I have your link above for the wire you suggest. Thanks.


----------



## BVH (Sep 13, 2014)

I don't know where you're located but if you want to send me the light, I would make the cord with either a permanent extension spliced in with butt connectors or so that it is removable with plugs at both ends. Just pay shipping and for parts. I have a lot of Anderson connectors on-hand so all you'd need to pay for is the wire. PM if interested. No labor charge or parts markup.


----------



## khq0660 (Sep 16, 2014)

This is a generous offer. In case you haven't noticed, I have no technical knowledge, so I have to ask.....Does the second option that you suggest require that the light or cord on the light be cut? I'd like to find an option that doesn't void the warranty on the light, but doesn't dim the light as the extension cord I have does.


----------



## BVH (Sep 16, 2014)

I'm sure any cutting of the cord would void the warranty. I didn't think about that. The only way to build one then is to use a male and female cig lighter power plug and receptacle as I've linked below and #12 silicone jacketed wire. These are rated at 20 amps instead of 10 Amps that most cig lighter adapters in vehicles are rated. This means that the wire gauge and contact areas of these parts are larger than standard 10 Amp units and will cause less resistance loss. You'd still want to keep it as short as possible while meeting your extension needs. That's about your only avenue without cutting.

/www.amazon.com/Weatherproof-Accessory-Lighter-Outlet-pba/dp/B00G4RYWF2

I could make it for and ship it to you if you'd like. You could purchase the adapters and wire and have them shipped to me.


----------



## khq0660 (Sep 16, 2014)

Thanks. I'll look into getting this stuff and also try to find out what the numbers are on the factory extension cord that I have.

On my light that stopped working completely, they found a short in the cig. plug. They have mailed me a replacement light. As soon as I get that light, I will be mailing them the light where the beam is not focused properly. I played with it some, but couldn't get it right.


----------



## BVH (Sep 16, 2014)

Confirming you're making an apples to apples comparison in brightness. You're comparing before and after brightness with either: The engine on for both comparisons or the engine off for both comparisons? The extra 1.5 Volts +- when the engine is running makes a significant difference in brightness.

You probably don't have a Voltmeter?


----------



## khq0660 (Sep 16, 2014)

No, I don't have a voltmeter. The engine is always running when I spotlight. When I get the repaired light back in the mail, I'll try the extension cord again just to refresh my memory as to how much difference there is with it. As I recall, with the ext. cord, there were a few particularly distant spots I could no longer see clearly, which, unfortunately, are some spots the horses like to get into.


----------



## FRITZHID (Sep 21, 2014)

And again.... app crashes while trying to post.
Long story short.... 
A. mod vehicle to accommodate lighting.
B. Lessen lighting wattage.
C. Get an old, used maxabeam with bad batt, use as vehicle power only. You'll love a maxabeam.


----------



## FRITZHID (Sep 21, 2014)

https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/390507
Perhaps this light would be in your market. I'd be happy to assist you in any work needed (I.e., bulb replacement, cord assembly, etc.


----------



## khq0660 (Sep 21, 2014)

I'm not sure about the set up. The internet photo I found shows a flashlight with handle kind of set up rather than the set up like the Blitz. I'm not sure if I could hold it out the window searching while I drive, and operate the on/off button all with one hand. 

I've always wondered if there is some point in increasing powers of the lights if it becomes dangerous to the vision of the horses I'm looking at. I've been on the receiving end of the weaker spotlights and I know that it's temporarily blinding.


----------



## FRITZHID (Sep 21, 2014)

.... a maxabeam isn't going to hurt your cattle. My business partner uses one regularly, it's never hurt the cattle


----------



## FRITZHID (Sep 21, 2014)

In fact he says it never even faze them, they normally just stand there and ignore it


----------



## FRITZHID (Sep 21, 2014)

Ok...i can't put this more clearly.... You want an old maxabeam. It won't spook your stock. It will perform for your needs. It will run for hrs without engine running. It won't over run your system in your truck. Simply take the bite on $500 and by a maxabeam..... or less with the batt free version like the link I sent you.


----------

