# Future LED Replacement Lamps for Existing Compact Fluorescent Recessed Fixtures



## bsmith (Dec 11, 2009)

I would really like to use LED recessed downlight fixtures in my new office, but the cost is very high and I really believe that the cost will drop by more than half within two years. One idea I had was to install conventional incandescent type-A recessed fixtures but start off using screw-in fluorescent flood lamps in them. Then after a couple of years, replace the fluorescent lamps with screw-in LED lamps that will surely be much cheaper than they are today.

But as I review incandescent downlight fixtures, they are not near as good of quality (particularly the reflector housing) as dedicated compact fluorescent fixtures that typically use a pin base double tube type of lamp. So my question for LED experts is whether we are likely to ever see LED lamp replacements that can plug into, for example, a 4-pin G24q-3 type of lamp base. If that were likely to happen, I could start off with the better quality dedicated fluorescent fixtures and hopefully count on being able to upgrade them with LED lamps later on. Right now, I am guessing that possibility is unlikely, but I wanted to see what knowledgeable LED people think about that.


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## SemiMan (Dec 12, 2009)

Plugging into a G24q-3 base "may" happen, but it would be the worst of several worlds:

- Would need a complex power supply in order to emulate the flourescent bulb

- Would need to somewhat replicate the bulb lighting distribution in order to get the same effect as the existing fixture.

No doubt there will be some low cost item cranked out. There are a lot of those fixtures, so maybe there will be some interest from the majors, but it certainly is not an ideal situation.

When I look at these: http://www.1000bulbs.com/Cree-LR6-LED-Downlight/34357/ These don't strike me as that expensive for what they are. If you are going to have to have the hassle of replacing everything in a few years, maybe you could just put this up and be done with it.

Semiman


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## saabluster (Dec 12, 2009)

SemiMan said:


> Plugging into a G24q-3 base "may" happen, but it would be the worst of several worlds:
> 
> - Would need a complex power supply in order to emulate the flourescent bulb
> 
> ...


I'll second that.:thumbsup: It may happen but it will be a while before anything or anything good would come out. The Cree LR6 is definitely the way to go to as I don't think there is really any true competition with it yet.


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## Lynx_Arc (Dec 12, 2009)

I don't see LED *replacements* ever getting cost effective compared to a fixture designed for LEDs from the start as retrofitting LEDs IMO is harder than designing from scratch fixtures around them. I also don't see LEDs competing well with fluorescent fixtures for many years to come unless two things happen: 1)LED output and prices give a lot cheaper lumens per watt to compete 2) energy crisis making electricity so much more expensive that the energy savings would pay for them a lot quicker that 5-10 years down the line due to the huge expense of the components.


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## jtr1962 (Dec 12, 2009)

Lynx_Arc said:


> I don't see LED *replacements* ever getting cost effective compared to a fixture designed for LEDs from the start as retrofitting LEDs IMO is harder than designing from scratch fixtures around them. I also don't see LEDs competing well with fluorescent fixtures for many years to come unless two things happen: 1)LED output and prices give a lot cheaper lumens per watt to compete 2) energy crisis making electricity so much more expensive that the energy savings would pay for them a lot quicker that 5-10 years down the line due to the huge expense of the components.


I agree 100% on both counts. The only reason for the current popularity of LED screw-in replacements is an underestimation on the part of retailers of the ability of the general public to replace fixtures. Once they get past this mentality, I suspect you will see more and more purpose-designed LED fixtures.

As for LEDs replacing fluorescents-it's easy to see them replacing CFLs, but with complete fixtures rather than screw-base bulbs. This makes economic sense. Replacing linear fixtures is another thing entirely. Given that tubes cost $2 for ~3K lumens, last 24,000 hours or longer, and get 100 lumens per watt, it's hard to see the economics favoring LEDs for a long time. I suspect we'll need to reach 200 lm/W, 100,000+ hours life, and cut the cost per lumen by a factor of five before wholesale elimination of linear tube fixtures will make sense.


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## blasterman (Dec 12, 2009)

> I would really like to use LED recessed downlight fixtures in my new office


 
Why go backward 50 years? The conventional incan bulb format and socket is outdated by about half a century and was abondoned by commercial and office architects before I was born in favor of 'purpose built' fluorescent fixtures. 

jtr1962 is otherwise all over this, and I agree with his benchmarks. At 200wpl, which is at least a couple years out (perhaps further from a fixture standpoint) even the best T5 bays look like energy hogs. However, it will require purpose built fixtures like the LR6.


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## bsmith (Dec 13, 2009)

I should have mentioned that the large rectangular office area I am speaking of needs about 40 downlight fixtures in a vaulted ceiling 2/12 slope format. This fixture and hardware http://www.e-conolight.com/Product/EProductDetail.asp?ProductFamilyID=28&FGNumber=E-RSN6TP is only about $10 and a cfl lamp for it is about $6. The cree downlight fixture here http://www.1000bulbs.com/Cree-LR6-LED-Downlight/34357/ is $85 plus another $12 for the housing and mounting hardware as shown here http://www.1000bulbs.com/41045/

So that's $16 for a cheap CFL screw-in downlight vs. about $97 for a cree downlight. Multiplied 40 times, that's a huge cost difference for similar lumens. Now if I could tolerate the lesser aesthetics of using suspended T5HO linear lamp fixtures, the cost per lumen really favors fluorescent light and I could greatly reduce the number of fixtures needed as well.

Since this office space is open plan with only a need for lower light levels for computer programmers, I don't really need a high average foot candle level of ambient light. Task lighting at each station will give the desired lighting boost at each station when needed.

Dedicated LED downlight fixtures would be nice, and if just a hand full were needed I could go with dedicated LED fixtures but the economics can't be justified at this time.

I can make lots of different lighting scenarios work for this application. But the interesting point about using the cheap incandescent fixtures is that there guaranteed will be screw-in LED lamp replacements available very cheap in the near future. And while not optimized for the incandescent fixture, I feel very confident that I could enjoy less power consumption and less heat output per fixture with decent lumens as I evolved towards replacing screw-in cfl lamps with screw-in LED lamps in those cheap incandescent fixtures.


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## Lynx_Arc (Dec 13, 2009)

It is possible that LED screw in replacements will get cheap enough in time to be cost effective but it is also possible by the time LEDs are mainstream in general lighting the fixtures will be such that it will be cheaper to replace all your downlight fixtures with LED based ones for considerably cheaper than buying the screw in lamps. A fixture can accomodate better heatsinking, the power supply, and diffusers/lenses/optics if needed or wanted to direct the light more properly. I could even see using the same fixture to flood or as a spot with a different lens/optic setup. When it comes to mass manufacturing to obtain the cheapest price it is possible these specifically made fixtures could end up costing half as much as a screw in replacement does making it so you just yank out the old fixture for a new LED one.


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## blasterman (Dec 13, 2009)

> Now if I could tolerate the lesser aesthetics of using suspended T5HO linear lamp fixtures


 
By having your work space look like every unfinished basement in suburbia?  Most of the drop T5's I see in office spaces (and I see a lot of them) look pretty darn good, but they aren't cheap. 

CFL will work good initially, but you'll get annoyed real fast the first time you have to replace a couple and can't find the same color temp. Then again, some people don't care about these things...running the business obviously takes a priority. Just be sure if you go this route to buy extra bulbs of the same type for replacements. You'll thank me later.

May I suggest, if money is a serious issue and main lighting isn't a concern, using a bunch of nice looking Torche' style lamps. No need to wire those or pay for an electrician. Just a thought.


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## bsmith (Dec 14, 2009)

Lynx_Arc said:


> It is possible that LED screw in replacements will get cheap enough in time to be cost effective but it is also possible by the time LEDs are mainstream in general lighting the fixtures will be such that it will be cheaper to replace all your downlight fixtures with LED based ones for considerably cheaper than buying the screw in lamps. A fixture can accommodate better heatsinking, the power supply, and diffusers/lenses/optics if needed or wanted to direct the light more properly. I could even see using the same fixture to flood or as a spot with a different lens/optic setup. When it comes to mass manufacturing to obtain the cheapest price it is possible these specifically made fixtures could end up costing half as much as a screw in replacement does making it so you just yank out the old fixture for a new LED one.



Yes, it may very well be that a complete LED fixture/lamp combination changeout would be the best way to go when LED's finally become economically justifiable for office area lighting.



blasterman said:


> By having your work space look like every unfinished basement in suburbia?  Most of the drop T5's I see in office spaces (and I see a lot of them) look pretty darn good, but they aren't cheap.



Never been in a basement in my life. In the southern U.S., they are extremely rare so I don't know what is commonly done for lighting in basements. However, I have been in hundreds of offices and want to be different in that I am not using t-bar and lay-in acoustic ceiling tile in a flat suspended ceiling. My ceiling is vaulted down the long center line of the entire 40' x 120' rectangular building and uses a textured dry wall ceiling attached to metal cee sections that also allows me to create a floored walkable attic area. By going with a residential living room style, my office ceiling will be quite unique.

Suspended lighting and lay-in troffer fixtures in t-bar are super common in offices. So I am trying to avoid that approach. My concern with using recessed downlights is that I might create too much of a "pin cushion" look. Even so, it would be quite different compared to most offices and most of my visitors would not know that a ceiling full of recessed lights looks like what is frequently used in a northern unfinished basement.



blasterman said:


> CFL will work good initially, but you'll get annoyed real fast the first time you have to replace a couple and can't find the same color temp. Then again, some people don't care about these things...running the business obviously takes a priority. Just be sure if you go this route to buy extra bulbs of the same type for replacements. You'll thank me later.



I have been using CFL's at home now and have only had to replace one and didn't notice any color difference when I did. But I am sure that can be a real issue so I will stock up on quite a few extras. Thanks for the tip.



blasterman said:


> May I suggest, if money is a serious issue and main lighting isn't a concern, using a bunch of nice looking Torche' style lamps. No need to wire those or pay for an electrician. Just a thought.



Already got that covered. The office is being built on my 470 acre ranch in Texas. So the rustic aspect is being played up a bit with limestone exterior and wood features as well as a limestone fireplace where a realistic looking fake fire will run continuously, putting out more light than heat hopefully. Hardly ever need heat in my part of Texas. If anybody wants to see and play with real fire, I have brush piles always at the ready to light up the sky with.


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## TitanLED (May 16, 2011)

bsmith said:


> I would really like to use LED recessed downlight fixtures in my new office, but the cost is very high and I really believe that the cost will drop by more than half within two years. One idea I had was to install conventional incandescent type-A recessed fixtures but start off using screw-in fluorescent flood lamps in them. Then after a couple of years, replace the fluorescent lamps with screw-in LED lamps that will surely be much cheaper than they are today.
> 
> But as I review incandescent downlight fixtures, they are not near as good of quality (particularly the reflector housing) as dedicated compact fluorescent fixtures that typically use a pin base double tube type of lamp. So my question for LED experts is whether we are likely to ever see LED lamp replacements that can plug into, for example, a 4-pin G24q-3 type of lamp base. If that were likely to happen, I could start off with the better quality dedicated fluorescent fixtures and hopefully count on being able to upgrade them with LED lamps later on. Right now, I am guessing that possibility is unlikely, but I wanted to see what knowledgeable LED people think about that.


_
Before you consider a CFL, ask yourself, why chose this product over an LED? Am I looking to save energy, do I want a lamp that has a long life expectancy, or I like it because it looks nice? In my opinion, through testing, CFL's have an extremely poor power factor. For example, incandescent lamps and halogen lamps are very efficient. They have a power factor of 1.00 (100%). A 60W incandescent lamp will draw 60 watts. CFL's on average have a power factor of 0.53 to 0.56. What that means to you, is simply this, a 23W CFL with a power factor of 0.53 is actually pulling approximately 43 watts of the grid. In other words, that 23W CFL really isn't 23 watts at all... It's actually drawing 43 watts. Again, in my opinion, through testing, T8 fluorescent tubes, on average, have a power factor of 0.79. Therefore, a 32W T8 fluorescent tube is pulling approximately 42 watts of the grid. Ultimately, an LED with a power factor of 90 or above, despite the cost, makes much more sense than any CFL. Yes, your upfront cost can be high, but you have to consider the amount of change outs you will do compared to the 50,000+ hours of an LED. Depending on your hours of use, a 50,000+ hours LED lamp can have a life expectancy of 15 to 20 years. Cost of LED's, in some retail outlets, is already down. However, you'll find low power factors; hence, minimal efficiency... You get what you pay for. [/FONT]
_


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## Oznog (May 16, 2011)

It is a quandary for manufacturers. Once they make it with a standard base style, they have NO control over what sort of housing the consumer might put it in.

Most housings were NOT designed to dissipate heat. In fact they're designed with reflective heat shields and ceramic to keep the heat IN, and not get the case hot enough to damage materials, start a fire, or burn someone.

Many of these fixtures are not well designed to TAKE a high powered LED bulb.


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