# How many miles will my car last?



## Frangible (Sep 29, 2004)

I have a 1994 Chrysler Town and Country minivan. It's been maintained pretty well, always get it oil changes, etc and is running well AFAIK.

It has 158,000 miles on it. Can anyone venture a guess as to how many more it'll be good for without replacing the engine or anything?


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## rycen (Sep 29, 2004)

What are the specs on the tranny and motor?


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## Lurker (Sep 29, 2004)

I think with a Chrystler minivan (not known for reliability) that is ten years old and over 150,000 miles, you are at the point where it could go at any time. But every vehicle is individual and it also might get to 200,000 without too much going wrong. Past that you will definitely be on borrowed time.


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## MeridianTactical (Sep 29, 2004)

I hate to say it, but I stay away from american cars after years of getting burned and having friends get burned...

Seems most american cars hit 120K and thats when the it gets expensive to fix. Motors, Tranny's etc.

Just had a freind blow the motor on a saturn at 80K, andother had an Ford Explorer's tranny (with 110K highway mi) go to the tune of $2500 And this was a common issue said the dealer...

I'm not trying to bash american cars, but my Ex's Firebird would require resetting the computer if you went through a puddle. And my older (as in 1988 GT with 15K mi at the time) Mustang would fail to start every 10-15 tries. nessesitating popping the clutch to get it going. I could go on....

So its realy a crap shoot... You could hit 200K or your on borrowed time. I'd say start saving up for your next car and ride that puppy into the ground! 

I would not recomend a new engine or tranny if it goes...


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## LitFuse (Sep 29, 2004)

I've got a '95, and it seems like the motor is the only thing that still works on it. I've had touble with:

Transmission

CV joints

AC- front and rear evaporators. Replaced the rear, then the front one went out 6 months later. Didn't repair it because it's an expensive PITA and not worth it.

Heat- Both heater cores rotted out.

Fan motor replaced.

Brake trouble.

Lots of misc. BS hassles.

Oh yeah, I forgot about the paint. Peeling off in big chunks on all vertical surfaces. This was a factory defect that Chrysler did their best to avoid responsibility for. If you hassled long enough, you could get them to paint your car for little or nothing, but I didn't have the time to invest.

IMHO the Chrysler minivans are crap. Repair data submitted to Consumer Reports by owners substantiates this. I will never own another Chrysler product as long as I live.

Peter


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## rycen (Sep 29, 2004)

Chris,
You have had some bad luck.

I owned a 1992 Plymouth Voyager with the 3 liter mitsu motor and 3spd auto tran and with the most minimal amount of mantaince done it lasted 140,000 of hard miles and is still on the road.


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## MeridianTactical (Sep 29, 2004)

Rycen, yup... but I learn quick. My friends have have it worse...

But I did notice you siad you had the "3 liter mitsu(bishi) motor". My point remains valid (I had to get hat one in) /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif


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## rycen (Sep 29, 2004)

I figured I would say that it was a mitsu before someone pointed that out.It was a good motor but it did burn oil.


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## raggie33 (Sep 29, 2004)

aal 3 liter mistbishi mothers will smoke


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## raggie33 (Sep 29, 2004)

rofl make that motors


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## Frangible (Sep 29, 2004)

Ok, thanks guys. Guess I'll start saving for that Toyota I've been lookin at 

(I have no idea of the specs on the tranny/motor btw)


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## PhotonBoy (Sep 29, 2004)

I've got a 1996 Plymouth Voyager with 183,000 km (114,000 mi.) on it. I'll never buy another Chrysler product. Had the transmission redone, about 3 or 4 recalls for really stupid stuff, starting problems that my mechanic brother was fortunately able to track down, A/C is now disconnected permanently, failed about 2 years ago.

Next car I get will be a Toyota product, probably a 2 year old Corolla.


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## MeridianTactical (Sep 29, 2004)

Oh I forgot, in my poor attempt at getting a "family car" and ditching a well working Nissan with 136K, I bought an off lease Ford Taurus that had the metal AC lines rot out at 40K Mi and were going to cost $800 to fix.

Also the first week I had that car I bled the brakes everynight as there was so much brake fade I was scared... Turned out it was "normal".

I wish we could add some more quality to the American cars, I like the looks of the new Dodge stuff... but I'm too afraid... I for a moment thought of the new 300 as a possible car...

I had a 99 Nissan Maxima with 150K HARD miles on it, ran great and I spent only $300 for a coil pack. And it ran with a bad coil pack just fine until you gave it full throttle, then it would hiccup...

Sold the Max cheap for $5500 a few months back...


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## Draco_Americanus (Sep 29, 2004)

while listing to car talk I would say that some non american cars are just as bad, that allways make fun of VW's burning oil. I have also heard of toyota's 2.7 lt inline 4 engine blowing at 70kmiles due to flawed oil passages clogging up. My friends honda was a nightmare to work on and the parts where soo expensive not to mention it being rusted out, so IMHO All of the car makers have some crap models/ motors,/ bad days.

My personal experance had been as follows,
1988 chevy s-10, body is heavy rusted and I have owned it for 11 years at 124kmiles when I got it, nothing magor and it has 181kmiles, orginal 2.8 guttless motor and orginal transmition. (My dad owned it and it was unreliable when new, a workmanship defect was found and fixed)
1998 jeep grand cherokee, rebuilt front axle at 90kmiles, cracked exhust manifold at 150kmiles and currently has 164kmiles. I bought it 4 years ago it had 52kmiles. I dive off road and into deep water at times so both failers where probly my fault.
2001 buick regal gs 22kmiles , just got it, so no info.

So if your minivan was taken care of and it's not beat on you may make it, just carry a cell phone just in case. No one thought my S-10 would last as long as it has, I figure I was on borrowed time 11 years ago.
My dad just got a dodge magnum with the hemi so We will see if Chysler cleaned up some of there act.


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## Draco_Americanus (Sep 29, 2004)

leave it to ford to have that problem happen, they also had problems with the oil pans rusting out. A tarus is one ford I would never own. My mom had an Escort that ran great, she sold it at 92 kmiles to get an F-150, the trim quality whent down hill for ford during the late 1990's


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## raggie33 (Sep 29, 2004)

im lucky with cars my family is to but we maintain em 3000k oil changes etc etc. but are cars last long usaly around 250.000 and still running . i dont drive now but if i did id get a used mazda 626 around 90 model and hopefulky get it for like 500 bucks .there great cars but dont get the auto they stink


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## PlayboyJoeShmoe (Sep 29, 2004)

It really is hard to say.

We used to go Airshow seeing in an Approx. '84 Chrysler mini van. Only thing it ever did wrong to us was grenade a CV joint (right in front of a Sears!).

However, in 1995 I fell head over heels for a Dodge Intrepid. Then I got on Edmonds and read about them. 

Now I figure on getting a Pontiac Gran Prix. I feel like GM has their S&%T together a little bit better than Ford (when talking cars!) and a LOT better than Mopar.

On V-8 powered trucks, and cars for that matter... 300K isn't unreachable. My (Sisters) '95 Town Car has almost 160K and does nothing wrong. My F-350 (Beast) has at least 200K+ and probably 300K (it only reads to 99,999).

Like someone else said, start saving up and CARRY A CELLPHONE! A tripleA account might not hurt. I have the cell phone number to a wrecker driver myself!


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## greenLED (Sep 29, 2004)

I have a 96 mazda with 224000 miles on it. Running like new! I had an 87 Toyota Camry with 160000+ miles on it, running good. Sold it when I moved cross-country. My experience with American cars is that they consume more gas and are harder and more expensive to maintain than Japanese ones. They tend to have more *extras* and may be more "comfy", though.


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## Frangible (Sep 29, 2004)

[ QUOTE ]
On V-8 powered trucks, and cars for that matter... 300K isn't unreachable. My (Sisters) '95 Town Car has almost 160K and does nothing wrong. My F-350 (Beast) has at least 200K+ and probably 300K (it only reads to 99,999).

[/ QUOTE ]

Why would V8's last longer? I'm sort of car-ignorant.


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## chmsam (Sep 29, 2004)

I have had the oil pump in my S-10 (Vortek V6) replaced twice in 160,000 miles. There was virtually no wear on the bottom end of the engine noticed during the repairs. I change my oil every 3,000 - 4,000 miles. Need a better reason to do so? Only other semi-major repair was a fuel injector rail replacement. Add to that a minor recall or two, and you can see why I'm fairly pleased. Here in upstate NY body rust and rot will kill the vehicle more often than anything except poor maintenance.

Pay attention to the gauges. Also, I must say that preventive maintenance has been very, very good to me.

Engine problems are bad enough, but a wise person checks the suspension, steering, and brakes often on any vehicle. Repairs there are cheaper by far when done early, and actually can save your life. 

I see no reason not to be able to get 200,000 miles out of almost any decent vehicle. Now, dealerships and car companies are another whole matter -- personally, I'll never buy another Daimler-Chrysler vehicle, no matter what.


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## MeridianTactical (Sep 29, 2004)

On oil changes, On my Nissan I did it every 5-7K. Any less IMO is a waste of money. The people who recomend the 3k oil changes are the oil and oil changing companys.

Most manufactures recomend 7K

Don't get me wrong the more you change the better, but its not nessasary.

As an example. My current car now recomends oil changes at 14-15K or 1 year... Mercedes recommends the same...


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## rycen (Sep 29, 2004)

Chris,
Waht are you driving now?


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## chmsam (Sep 29, 2004)

Change yours when you want. Frequent oil changes really are a good idea if you drive short distances -- more percentage of the time spend on start up or warm up. 

Besides, even with normal highway driving, if I spent another whole extra $100 on oil over the life of the car (and it is far from that), and the oil is being recycled, I don't think I've wasted anything in comparison to even a potential rebuild on the engine (wouldn't be pretty). 

And yep, I will spend the extra buck on a quality oil filter over the cheapo brand. I also buy better quality gasoline. You might not have, but I have personally seen a measureable difference in doing all this vs. people who own a similar vehicle. But what someone else wants to do is their business, of course. If it works for me, I'll continue. I still get high 18's to 20 for mpg, and even better if I drive harder.

In other parts of the world, oil changes are at every 10,000 miles. Might not make the oil compnaies happy, but I'll bet that there are a few happy people rebuilding engines for their customers. YMMV, literally, and maybe I simply don't want to push my luck.


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## MeridianTactical (Sep 29, 2004)

I drive a 2004 BMW 330Ci (paid for by engineering, not flashlight sales, I promise!!). When you start the car it gives you a countdown till its time for oil service... There is no recommendation for changing the oil after the first 1000 Mi. Which I will agree 100 % that’s an important oil change…

So If BMW and Mercedes recommend 15K when they have to warranty the engines, it’s a safe bet to think 3k for an oil change is a bit frequent.

Now, I'm not a "tree hugger" by any means, but think how much waste oil we are creating buy halving out the oil change interval...

On my Motorcycles I do every 2500-3500 Mi but it’s mostly because I do it once a year and that’s all the riding I have time for. I don’t want a winters worth of condensation in my oil from sitting all winter.

Oil these days is pretty good, and will last quite awhile before breaking down. 

Oh And all through high school I took automotive courses and even worked for a few car dealerships in service prior to engineering… So I like to think I’m not just armchair quarterbacking here.

Best thing you can do is NOT rev the engine when you first start it up and wait until the engine is thoroughly warm before you rev it high…


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## Draco_Americanus (Sep 29, 2004)

If you go 15k on an oil change I doubt your engine will ever see 200kmiles, even if it still ran it would show lots of wear and sludge. shure it will make it though warranty and thats all the car makers whant, you will probly see over 100kmiles too, heck I read that the northstar engine that cadilacs use has a "rated" life of 120kmiles, They don't what a car to last to 200-300 kmiles.
I change the oil on my jeep at about 3500 miles and that oil is crap at that mileage and according to my maual and driving service thats the recomended interval. the recomended interval for "normal" driving would be 5000 miles but I drive lots of high way at 75mph, so that throws it into another catigory. 
also the systems that tell you when to change the oil do not take dust or other particulate into concideration so if you drive down dusty or dirt roads that system is meaningless.
Now I will say that new engine types run a lot cleaner but also run a bit hotter so if a manual says 10k I simply do not trust it.


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## chmsam (Sep 29, 2004)

A few additional thoughts.

If the oil is being recycled, we're not wasting very much. A more efficient, better maintained engine burns less fuel and fuel that is burned isn't recycled at all.

Best all around solution is to not use gasoline and use as little oil as possible. But that is still a very hard sell to way too many people. So we do what we feel we can in the way we find works best for us.

Besides, since I am not going to live forever, I should consume all the dead dinosaurs while I can, right now, right? 
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ooo.gif


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## MeridianTactical (Sep 29, 2004)

I'm not saying 15K is good... I'm recommending 5-7K

If you’re doing off road stuff in a jeep, sure 3.5k is a good idea due to dust and such...

But why would BMW and MB recommend 15K. These cars are built to last and will command a better resale % then most any other car...? Would you not agree these guys make a great cars and put a LOT of engineering thought into it, just to screw all that up with bad oil change advice would be wrong with no benefit?

If they made bad decisions then why are there a lot of older BMW's and MB's still on the road at 200-300K? And most American cars are in the dumpster at 100-150K.

One last thing is most foreign cars make power over 4K RPM and are happy in that range, the American cars are designed for power at lower RPM. Hence the BMW will have more revolutions on it vs. an American car for a given time span and still stretches out the oil interval.


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## greenLED (Sep 29, 2004)

The 3000 Km comes from a twisted conversion from the 3000 *miles* generally recommended between oil changes. These many miles are about 4800 Km.


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## Draco_Americanus (Sep 29, 2004)

I forgot to ask, the BMW 15k oil change interval, is that with synthetic oil? if so I can see them recomending 15kmiles for synthetic oil. AMSOIL recomends long change intervals with thier synthetic along with the condition you use thier bypass oil filtering system, they offer a warranty for that as well.
one concern I have with normal oil is during operation water is also formed, that reacts with normal oil and it corrodes engine parts, also being beat on at over 200 degress f as it's toll as well.

in my state of michigan the BMW's rust away just like the others and for that I don't see a whole lot of the older ones around. I came so close to buying one my self.
I belive most(With some fore mentioned exeptions *cough* some ford, some chrysler) american cars will last 180-200k if they are not beat on and maintained correctly, My S-10 has been to hell and back and still runs at 181Kmiles. people also forget you need to change the transmission fluid as well


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## cobb (Sep 29, 2004)

Firstoff, you should change your oil between 3-6k miles depending on its condition and rather or not you drive hard or have a turbo. Second, every 6 months. Some who drive in the city short distances do not get the oil hot enough to boil off the water and crap that settles in it. It should be a golden brown color, not BLACK or honey. If its not a diesel and its BLACK or smells burned, you should of changed it earlier. ALso, do not forget to change the filter. Most filters have a blow off valve so when they get clogged, UNFILTERED oil runs through your engine. If you have a turbo or drive hard, you should leave it running a minut or so before shutting it off to let it cool down. 

As for engine life, gas does last longer than diesel, at least with non truck drivers. School buses get 200k miles on a dieselengine, 300k on gas. I believe commercial trucks that are left on 24/7 get close to a million miles. 

As for chrysler, the new 6 cylinder engines they replaced the 4 bangers with back then had valve stem seals that worked too well, they ate into the valve stem causing oil to leak down inside the cylinders. 

The metric trannys which I beieve they use will go if you do not abuse them, likewise withthe engine. Unless you abuse it it will jsut consume more and more oil till you see smoke from the engine. If you abuse it, its likely to throw a rod, however I do not know of many 4 bangers that throw a rod versus blowing a head gasket. 

CVC joints fail cause the boot is not installed or taken care of. You need to spray it with silicone or it will crack, crap gets in the oil and balls and it starts to wear, you get knocking noises and one day you go to make a U turn and your balls fall out ontothe highway.

BTW, use to be a chrysler mechanic, worked in am achine shop for 2 years and worked on small engines, motorcycles, etc.


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## Frangible (Sep 29, 2004)

[ QUOTE ]
CVC joints fail cause the boot is not installed or taken care of. You need to spray it with silicone or it will crack, crap gets in the oil and balls and it starts to wear, you get knocking noises and one day you go to make a U turn and your balls fall out ontothe highway.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok, what's a CVC joint?


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## chmsam (Sep 29, 2004)

CV (Constant Velocity) joint -- in easy terms, the connection between the front wheel and the drive train, on a front wheel drive car. 

Break one and the wheel and other goodies often tend to separate from the rest of the car to varying degrees. There are suspension pieces that are stll attached, but not a fun thing. The $80 boot you didn't want to replace becomes very expensive, very quickly, and life maybe gets exciting for all the wrong reasons since you steer with the front wheels, right? 

In a rear wheel drive car, it would be like having the U-joint (Universal Joint) breaking and the drive shaft falling out. That's embarassing, but nowhere near as exciting as losing a wheel.

Now, as to balls falling out on the highway...


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## StuU (Sep 29, 2004)

[ QUOTE ]
*Frangible said:*
Ok, what's a CVC joint? 

[/ QUOTE ]

A CV joint is a constant velocity joint that, with the axle, connects your transmission to the drive wheels. They are under the black accordion-like boots on your front axles. The boots are filled with grease. When the boots crack, the grease leaks out and the joint fails- note a clicking sound when turning.Today, they often just replace both front axles when one joint starts going bad.

As for mileage, we have a Toyota Camry 87 with 171,000 miles which has no problems. Also, a Toyota 88 PU with 164,000 miles. Both have had oil changes about every 3,500-5,000 miles throughout their life. Both have nice high engine compression readings and have never had any serious problems.

We are deciding what to do here with the old cars....and are going toward running them into the ground as long as they are reliable. 

We have a lower mileage 96 Oldsmobile with 3.1 V6 which we are thinking of using for a distance vehicle only. This car just completed a 5,000 mile road trip and I was *very* impressed with the performance of the engine/tranny.


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## iddibhai (Sep 29, 2004)

the long BMW/MB mile recs are for FULL SYNTH, to my knowledge, but they have had the service indicator counter long before synth were mass market (bmw started early 90s, mb late 90s). the new ones take into account automatically if/when you open the oil cap to add oil, and such.

also, the BMW/MB have started getting some issues w/ these longer oil changes if not serviced properly (and plus since they pick up the tab for ALL service first 4 years, they have more incentive to lengthen the change interval).

bottom line, using quality oil and filter, on a well maintained machine, 7-8k is just fine. my bmw has 176k *miles*, burns NO oil, and i service by the SI indicator, so at least 8k miles, sometimes 10k between changes. compression was w/i original spec too.


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## geepondy (Sep 29, 2004)

And give up that unique truck of yours?? From the picture you posted, it has character.

I hear more and more stories of American cars that seem to last longer these days. A friend commutes 150 miles each day (don't ask, I couldn't do it) and is approaching 200k on his 98 Ford Escort. Two guys at work have Saturns that both have over 150k miles but both use oil. My '88 Toyota Corolla went 220k miles and still running when I got rid of it, although it did go thru brakes and exhausts pretty regularly. My Subaru Impreza Outback Sport recently died at 140k miles but it was not a trouble free 140k. Because I'm now poor too, I just bought a 2002 Saturn SL1 with 40k miles that I'm dearly hoping will be trouble free for three years. It is not a refined vehicle by any stretch of the imagination but blows the Subaru away in gas mileage. I dearly wanted to get another Toyota but I am forced to buy used and can get much better deals on used American cars then Japanese.

I was going to get a triple AAA membership but I've heard they can take their sweet time about picking you up for a tow?

[ QUOTE ]
*PlayboyJoeShmoe said:*

Now I figure on getting a Pontiac Gran Prix. I feel like GM has their S&%T together a little bit better than Ford (when talking cars!) and a LOT better than Mopar.

On V-8 powered trucks, and cars for that matter... 300K isn't unreachable. My (Sisters) '95 Town Car has almost 160K and does nothing wrong. My F-350 (Beast) has at least 200K+ and probably 300K (it only reads to 99,999).

Like someone else said, start saving up and CARRY A CELLPHONE! A tripleA account might not hurt. I have the cell phone number to a wrecker driver myself! 

[/ QUOTE ]


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## Draco_Americanus (Sep 29, 2004)

[ QUOTE ]
*cobb said:* 
you get knocking noises and one day you go to make a U turn and your balls fall out ontothe highway.


[/ QUOTE ]

OH Man I hate it when that happens! soo embarising!
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hahaha.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ooo.gif


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## Draco_Americanus (Sep 29, 2004)

Anyway , I did not know that about spraying silicone onto the CV joints. I have a failed and jurry rigged with zipties Cv boot on my old s-10 and thats the second boot. I did not catch the other side and that CV joint failed and needed to replace the half shaft as it was cheaper. I also lost a rear wheel about a month ago on that truck. Took an off ramp and it felt lose in the rear then the truck listed to one side in a shower of sparks! there was very little traffic but sadly what traffic there was where coworkers! They still joke about that from time to time! (note to self, 3 lug nuts will NOT hold the wheel on for more then 1 year). 
I usaly think I am fairly good with a wrench and have thought about training to be an auto mechanic, the newer computer controlled cars seem to be right up my alie. I even replaced the exhust manifold on my jeep grand cherokiee. Took 9 hours but I saved about 600-800 in labor.


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## Draco_Americanus (Sep 29, 2004)

[ QUOTE ]
*Frangible said:*
[ QUOTE ]
On V-8 powered trucks, and cars for that matter... 300K isn't unreachable. My (Sisters) '95 Town Car has almost 160K and does nothing wrong. My F-350 (Beast) has at least 200K+ and probably 300K (it only reads to 99,999).

[/ QUOTE ]

Why would V8's last longer? I'm sort of car-ignorant. 

[/ QUOTE ]
My thoery to this is a v8 or v6 makes more power at lower rpm so they don't rev as high or work as hard as a 4 banger would trying to move a ton or two of mass. driving style is key and forgin car makers seem to have an edge there, one guy I know had a toyota corrola, he beat the snot out of it and it lasted over 160kmiles till he hit a deer. They also claimed over 40mpg !
my old 1991 buick century's life was ended by being rearended, that car had the 2.5 liter "ironduke" inline 4 engine. I loved that motor, it even had metal timing grears insted of nylon or a belt. iron block, iron head= no early head gaskit failer. I even badly over heated it and it was fine after. aluminum engines will not tolerate that!.


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## popsgee (Sep 29, 2004)

I have a 1990 Caravan with 250,000 miles on it. On it's 3rd transmission. The first 2 were under warranty. 3.3 L V6. No problems with the engine besides oil leaks. Knwon for bad transmissions.


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## cobb (Sep 29, 2004)

Before CVC joints they used basically 2 universal joints. These were mainly used in 4x4 trucks for the front before CVC joints. CVC joints are way smoother. CVC joints are great is maintained. Like i said basically the boot breaks down as its made out of rubber and from constant flexing it will rip or tear, crap gets inside where the balls that allowed movement between the two surfaces, the balls get smaller the journals get larger and before you know it the cages collapse or the balls far out. So unless you have a positive lock diff, one end spins madly under your car and the other just rolls to a stop. 

You can buy the joint itself, but its cheaper to buy the half shaft or axle and swap them out. CVC joints are messy and smelly, so its easier and cleaner to swap the axle than dealing with the joint. 

I have tried synths oils and so has my folks. I think its rather mixed output. My uncle had a suzuki swift and when he went to synth oil it started to knock at idle. THis was a new truck, broke it in and switched over. Later he went to regular oil and the knocking went away. He never has any any lower end engine problems, then again he used 15w50(SP?) what ever the heavier oil was in his cars. He mainly had to deal with blown head gaskets. 

The heavier the oil you use the better it will hold us to higher temps and abuse than lighter weight oil. The problem is, heavier oils do not flow well when cold, where as lighter weight oils break down when the heat comes on. Heavier oil is less likely to burn or pass by the rings or valve stems as well, so if your car starts to burning oil, going to a heavier grade can help reduce that. 

As for engine, the more cylinders the more torque you have. Inline more so than V blocks. One main problem with cars is lugging it down. Going to the highest gear or worse yet, following the idiot light that told you to shift gears on your car. Also reving them can cause low end problems and possible ring problems. Lugging it can cause the cylinder to turn to oval shapes. ALso on V block engines the cylinder closet to the exis tof the water jacket seems the most distorted or egg shape and the one cloest to the water return from the radiator is the least distorted. Basically oil gets by the rings, you make smoke. If you abuse an engine like dumping hte clutch, dropping it in gear you can spin a bearing and cause it to throw a rod or rattle as the bottom end does not get enough oil. 

Also, sometimes the oil pump is to blame. Not to mention the relief valve. When you rev you make more oil pressure and its blown off into the oil pan while at idle its closed to keep the pressure stable. THis valve can get stuck open, the oil pump can pump less oil, the pickup screen can get clogged, the pickup tube can crack or develop a leak and so on.


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## LifeNRA (Sep 29, 2004)

My 1990 Jeep Wagoneer Limited 4x4,same size as a cherokee, has 291,000 miles on it. Has the 4.0 V6 in it. Does not leak oil or anything else at all. Does sound like a diesel now when it is running, knock knock /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif. Guess it is getting a little worn out but it still runs fine. The 4 wheel drive still works fine also. The only thing that does not work is the cruise control, but dont care about that anyway. I am going to see how many miles it will last.


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## Frangible (Sep 30, 2004)

LifeNRA: I've heard higher octane fuel can reduce engine knock in older cars


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## iddibhai (Sep 30, 2004)

it might be knocking due to deposit buildup (thus increasing "hot spots" and compression ratio; an "italian tune up" will solve that usually /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif


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## Draco_Americanus (Sep 30, 2004)

In my experance the dieseling noiseing from the 4.0 inline 6 is not from spark knock, it's from everything just sloping around. Mine has allways made lifter ticking as well. It started the "ticking" around 80kmiles or so and every thing that I can find says that a bit of lifter noise is normal for that 4.0 engine.
I have had spark knock with my s-10 truck and it sounded like lose marbles running around in the engine, that has been fixed many years ago.


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## Draco_Americanus (Sep 30, 2004)

what is an "italian tune up"?


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## MeridianTactical (Sep 30, 2004)

[ QUOTE ]
*Draco_Americanus said:*
I forgot to ask, the BMW 15k oil change interval, is that with synthetic oil? if so I can see them recomending 15kmiles for synthetic oil. AMSOIL recomends long change intervals with thier synthetic along with the condition you use thier bypass oil filtering system, they offer a warranty for that as well.
one concern I have with normal oil is during operation water is also formed, that reacts with normal oil and it corrodes engine parts, also being beat on at over 200 degress f as it's toll as well.

in my state of michigan the BMW's rust away just like the others and for that I don't see a whole lot of the older ones around. I came so close to buying one my self.
I belive most(With some fore mentioned exeptions *cough* some ford, some chrysler) american cars will last 180-200k if they are not beat on and maintained correctly, My S-10 has been to hell and back and still runs at 181Kmiles. people also forget you need to change the transmission fluid as well 

[/ QUOTE ]

Lots of older BMW's and MB's in Mass, most are now colectors items.

Yes, it's synthetic they recomend.

but again I'm not advocating 15K. And hopfully prior to the warrenty running out I'll be on to an BMW M5

I just rememberd, the BMW M3 recomends a oil change at 1000 Mi.

I should have gotten the M3... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon23.gif

I forgot what an italian tuneup is!!! So sombody come to the rescue


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## RussH (Sep 30, 2004)

My 1996 Jimmy SUV has 258,000 miles on it. It's currently sitting in my garage since the fuel pump went out. I've had to replace wheel bearings several times but other than that it's just had regular maintenance. After 150,000 miles you should have your fuel injection system cleaned - it helps noticeably.


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## PlayboyJoeShmoe (Sep 30, 2004)

[ QUOTE ]
*geepondy said:*
And give up that unique truck of yours?? From the picture you posted, it has character.

[ QUOTE ]
*PlayboyJoeShmoe said:*

Now I figure on getting a Pontiac Gran Prix. I feel like GM has their S&%T together a little bit better than Ford (when talking cars!) and a LOT better than Mopar.

On V-8 powered trucks, and cars for that matter... 300K isn't unreachable. My (Sisters) '95 Town Car has almost 160K and does nothing wrong. My F-350 (Beast) has at least 200K+ and probably 300K (it only reads to 99,999).

Like someone else said, start saving up and CARRY A CELLPHONE! A tripleA account might not hurt. I have the cell phone number to a wrecker driver myself! 

[/ QUOTE ] 

[/ QUOTE ]

Not to replace the truck Geepondy! To use when using the truck is all wrong!

And I have chosen Gran Prix because Pontiac is known as the "drivers" car division of GM. And the Intrepid ES appealed to me because it went well, apexed highway interchanges well, and stopped well. But Intrepids get hammered on Edmonds!

Every person with car knowledge that I ask about the GP gives me thumbsup. This includes the AC man, and the fleet man at one of our customers.


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## cobb (Sep 30, 2004)

I bet that is also your rods knocking around on their journals. Heavier weight oil can reduce that and maybe a high volume oil pump. Some folks have dropped their oil pan and swap out stock rod bearings too.


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## PlayboyJoeShmoe (Sep 30, 2004)

I'll take a stab at the "Italian Tune up".

It goes something like rev the engine up and dribble some water down the intake.

Am I close?


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## PlayboyJoeShmoe (Sep 30, 2004)

Double post...

SORRY!!!!


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## Draco_Americanus (Sep 30, 2004)

One reason I don't give edmonds and consumer reports a whole lot of credit is they seem to bash cars for minor stuff i.e. oh no! the knob to the watchmacallit fell off, this car is junk!! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rant.gif


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## 3rd_shift (Sep 30, 2004)

I have noticed a pattern.
Some of the more reliable vehicles seem to have these characteristics:

Rear wheel drive, or 4 wheel drive with solid axles front and back. (makes everything easier to service). No cv joints!

Engine with timing chain and not timing belt.

Engine, suspension, frame and drivetrain are a bit oversized and understressed, with at least a good towing package. 

The above reasons are partly responsible for full sized pickups (2500s, 3500s f250, f350, etc.) lasting so long. 
This was the big reason I saved up for and got an F350 with a powerstroke V8 Diesel. 
At 22000 miles, I have had ZERO problems with it so far.


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## iddibhai (Sep 30, 2004)

the dribble water in the vac. hose will take off carbon deposits, but is risky and requires some care lest you hydrolock. italian tune-up: pour fuel system cleaner into tank, fill up with whatever octane will not cause ping, and once engine warms up, let 'er rev. large throttle openings at low rpm will boost heat and pressure in the combustion chamber, knocking out junk, and high rpm high throttle will do likewise. in fact, you can tell the first time you give it the boot, a large cloud of muck comes out the other end.

basically a full power run. for fuel system cleaner, I like Redline SI-1; some german makers rec. ventil sauber something; BG44 and Techron are also good. anything else i don't have much faith in.


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## Draco_Americanus (Sep 30, 2004)

well, I don't have too mutch carbon then /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grinser2.gif When I first got my jeep I stoped the gas with a friend behind me, He reported lots of black smoke! jeep ran a bit better then. also when I had the exhaust manifold off to replace it I manualy cleaned the intake and exhaust ports and the intake manifold, defently ran better after that.

I agree with 3rd Shift as well, my jeep has solid axles, it's toobad the new grand cherokiees don't.
I also hate timing belts so if you have them better change them at the recomended intervals. My old buick used metal gears, that I liked


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## cobb (Sep 30, 2004)

Ive never heard of the italian tune up. One of the ways I heard to get some use out of a smoker is to rev it up and dump oil down the intake. IT will smoke at first, but fade off and the excess oil helps to seal the pistons to reduce teh smoke. Ive never seen it done, but heard it second handed.


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## raggie33 (Sep 30, 2004)

when pouring any liquid in intake into combsutuiion chamber do it slowly liquid dpnt compress engine damage can ocurr


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## chmsam (Oct 1, 2004)

Best I've heard of for hard to kill engines since the days of the Darts and the dreaded 225 slant six... plus another boring tale from my youth:

Knew a guy once who had a Mazda sedan with a rotary engine. The oil light came on and sure enough, a second or two later the hamster died. The guy knew the car had pooped the bed so he sold it to a high school kid for $125, laughing all the way to the bank. Next day, junior shows up with Dad. Dad had a can of kerosene. Huh?

Dad dumped kerosene down the 4 spark plug holes (twin rotors, not pistons, each with two plugs -- but no valves -- funky engines, those rotaries), hooked up a tow rope, and drove off. Junior dumped the clutch at about 30 mph. Cough. Cough. Vrooom. All the mosquitoes in the neighborhood died. Visibility went down to, hmmm, 3 maybe 4 microns. After a few seconds the kerosene ran out, exhaust cleared, sun came back out, and birds started chirping again. Whole neighborhood stank and tasted like kerosene for days. Yum.

Little brat drove the car past the guy's house every darn day for about 2 years. While laughing.

I helped a friend of mine rebuild a 13-B rotary once. Engine had about 200 parts & weighed about 200 lbs. Rev'd past the red line, and you knew when to back off when it ran out of power. Almost no low end torque, but once the rubber band got wound up, egads! Used to regularly hit 80 mph by the end of the entrance ramp. This was before the RX7's, btw. Carbs, not injection. According to the owners manual, it would run on 84 (!!!) octane. We were gonna try to run it on cheap aftershave or 151 rum, but worried about what would happen if we got confused between the two (like Groucho said, "It was a great party -- I was blind for 3 days").


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## iddibhai (Oct 1, 2004)

yea, it's slowly dribble water down the vac hose (if you can find those nowadays!). also, slow speed driving (such as stop/go traffic) w/ man trans where engine rpms are low and you modulate throttle to keep moving, around 1krpm is bad, so i know i read somewhere that giving a good strong boot and accelerating once traffic clears up makes sure no deposits form in the first place.


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## Draco_Americanus (Oct 1, 2004)

Well I don't need to be concerned with oil changes or italian tune ups with my 1988 S-10. At aproxmently 4:43 am a sex crazed whitetaled deer crossed infront of Me while I was going 70mph, The tail He was chasing made it across but sadly He met My truck, I slamed on the brakes, missed the Doe but not the Buck, My truck is now totaled.


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## MeridianTactical (Oct 1, 2004)

i used to your a spray bottle and mist the carb with the air cleaner off...

no chance for hydro-lock with a mister...


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## PlayboyJoeShmoe (Oct 1, 2004)

Ouch!

I don't rev up the Beast much... doesn't make it go any faster anyhow.

But when I do let the revs build up, I often get a bunch of BLACK smoke that diesels are known for.

So at least it isn't running too lean!

What recourse via state or fed government does one have when Mr. Deer comes out to play???


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## Draco_Americanus (Oct 1, 2004)

I don't know if I have any recourse when it comes to the state or federal govrenments. it would be nice as my truck is nor useless and I did not have full coverage inshurance. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif


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## LifeNRA (Oct 1, 2004)

I have hit 2 deer in my life with a vehicle. Both times with the same pickup. One was a doe and the other was a buck. Got rid of the pickup after hitting the second deer /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif. Regarding the buck you hit. Does the rut come in this early in Michigan? The rut here, NC, usually does not start until at least November.


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## Eugene (Oct 1, 2004)

[ QUOTE ]
*Draco_Americanus said:*
Well I don't need to be concerned with oil changes or italian tune ups with my 1988 S-10. At aproxmently 4:43 am a sex crazed whitetaled deer crossed infront of Me while I was going 70mph, The tail He was chasing made it across but sadly He met My truck, I slamed on the brakes, missed the Doe but not the Buck, My truck is now totaled. 

[/ QUOTE ]
Man I hate when those things happen. Is it totaled due to the cost of fixing vs the blue book cost of the truck or did it actually damage something major? Maybe you could buy some parts and fix it yourself as I can't see a deer tweaking the frame. I've owned a couple different vehicles after my 88 s10, one being a Chrysler minivan and as soon as I paid off that stupid minivan I drove it to the closest chevy dealer and traded it for another S10. As much as people are down on those little trucks sometimes I've found I can't stand driving anything else.


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## Eugene (Oct 1, 2004)

[ QUOTE ]
*LifeNRA said:*
I have hit 2 deer in my life with a vehicle. Both times with the same pickup. One was a doe and the other was a buck. Got rid of the pickup after hitting the second deer /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif. Regarding the buck you hit. Does the rut come in this early in Michigan? The rut here, NC, usually does not start until at least November. 

[/ QUOTE ]

Since my brother and I were finished with college and all moved out of the house and such a few years ago my father bought his first new vehicle since his 1972 Chevy truck, a 99 silverado. He has hit 4 deer and two dogs with that truck so far it must be like a magnet to them.


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## PlayboyJoeShmoe (Oct 1, 2004)

That sounds like seriously bad luck!!!

Don't hear about a lot of animal hits here around Houston.

Of course elsewhere in this state, crunching armadillos is the state sport!


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## cobb (Oct 1, 2004)

Funny how most diesels to not have throttle plates, they just dump more or less fuel in the cyliners and the engine takes car of the rest. I have heard of folks modding them and dump so much few it locks it up, bends the rods or knock the head off. THe diesel fuel addative is good for removing some of the carbon, then of course jsut reving it to blow it out. Carbon build up is not that bad for a diesel as it helps to raise the compression ratio, where in a gas car it can cause a hot spot and preignotion. 

Most gas cars have some clearance in the cylinders so if the timmingbelt fails or chain the valves being open at the wrong time wont eff anything up. FOr diesels and afew ford escourts that would be death. Nothing like seeing a piston with a valve slam in to the top. 

Oh, too much starter fluid can also cause lock in the cylinder. 

Those deer horns work well for my dad. He also slows down when he sees movement in the fields and flick his lights. 

I hear of young guys reving those rx cars with the rotary motors. I think the motor is neat, but i do not believe they developed the efficiency mazda thought they would produce, but they do make a lot of power per size.


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## PlayboyJoeShmoe (Oct 1, 2004)

A diesel DETESTS starting fluid!!!

They like WD40 as starting aid!

I'm not sure what I would do in "deer country" except not drive much at night!


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## Draco_Americanus (Oct 1, 2004)

The deer here are in rut now, it usaly starts about this time here, also bow hunting season started today as well. i could probly repair the truck my self but I don't know if it's worth the effort due to the advanced state of rust this truck has, here is a pic of it,





yes it was that rusted before but everything fit correctly and still worked. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon23.gif
I also "did" have the little wistles on the bumper, I think I still had one as of this morning, it's probly stuck to the deer now. What would have allowed Me to see them better would have been better aimed headlights and/or driving lights, of course they would be HID /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
it would be still kinda driveable but the deer's antler put a hole into the radiator. 
Atlest the deer was killed on impact, would have been a lot worse to see it suffer.


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## Samoan (Oct 1, 2004)

With that particular vehicle your tranny will go long before your engine. At 150K I'm surprized that one or the other hasn't gone yet.

-F


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## Samoan (Oct 1, 2004)

Has anyone here tried Seafoam? You can find it at NAPA stores and the guys on the Jeep list swear by the stuff


The product he is referring to is SeaFoam Deep Creep - 16 oz (only size)available at NAPA.

I am referring to combustion chamber cleaning as well as valves. This process is basically a modified version of GM's CCC procedure.

Get engine to operating temp and keep at idle. Remove main vacuum line to brake booster and cap with thumb. Move thumb partially to allow increase in idle. Pour SeaFoam over opening, the engine vacuum will suck it into the tube. Continue to pour faster until engine starts to stumble.
Keep pouring while engine stumbles but keep engine running.
When almost done with can (20 seconds) give it a final slug.
If engine stalls that's fine, otherwise cap end of vacuum hose completely with thumb. If engine still doesn't stall, shut it off quickly. Wait 10-20 minutes with engine off so that the SeaFoam can soak into carbon deposits, liquefying them. Reconnect vacuum line to brake booster. Start engine. Will start hard as it is partially flooded. Keep engine running for a couple minutes until smoothes out and then take it for a 10 mile high speed drive.
Done.

CAUTION!! This must be done outside. The white to blue smoke created especially after 20 minute wait will amaze you. You will puke white smoke for most of the 10 mile drive. It will be huge amounts of smoke. You won't be able to see your house from the driveway.


Same stuff in an spray can. Deep Creep in the 16oz is liquid that gets poured in. The actual process I use ever couple oil changes is:
1. Carbon clean system
2. Change oil & filter while I wait.
3. Use Deep Creep Spray to clean throttle body bore and both sides of the plate with toothbrush.
4. Occasionally put 1/3 can of Deep Creep liquid in the engine oil.
5. Put rest of can in gas tank.
6. Re-start engine and drive to clean out exhaust smoke.

As an aside, SeaFoam also makes a Transmission product that I have used in my WJ that had a funky slam shift when I got it. After about 100 miles the slam shift was gone. Really need to do a tranny flush and filter change but haven't got around to it yet.

SeaFoam was originally proven to me from my shop owner days. I used to service the local BIG A delivery truck! s. I tried Marvel Mystery Oil to quiet a really loud lifter on a 200K+ nissan p/u. No luck. Called them with bad news and the manager said other shops had really good luck with SeaFoam so he sent down a can. Followed directions and add another bottle to oil and rev'd it to 2000 for a few minutes and the lifter quieted down. Had to do it every other oil change as that motor was just plain tired.

We do a slight variation that has helped with ring seal consumption:

-Run until engine's fully up to operating temp.
-Do your version of the treeatment described earlier here & on cans.
-Pull the plugs & pour an ounce in each cylinder. Install plugs & let soak
overnight. (For us this is always an evening job.)
-You waited, right? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif Not waiting would be a great way to hydrolock.
-Start & run just enough to eliminate white smoke. Stop.
-Change oil & if picky the plugs too. The cleaner & crud do a number on both. (Try to schedule the treatment to coincide with normal maint sched.)

Don't be surprised if a newer vehicle starts throwing codes until the O2 sensor(s) are burned clean.

As a substitute for seafoam you can use a blend of 33% naptha/16% isopropyl alcohol/50% non detergent oil, mixed in that order. (I fill jar to 1/3, fill to 1/2, then top off with the oil.) Beware the fumes - not something to do indoors. Essentially seafoam but much cheaper.


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## cobb (Oct 1, 2004)

Ive learned that those additatives do not work, at least in my experience. Only thing that works was STP in the fuel and using heavier oil to reduce blow by and rod knock. 

I knew a guy who use to empty his oil out and put keroscene in the engine and run it for 30 seconds. Then he cut it off and drain it out. Then he did the normal oil change. I dont think it prolonged the life of the engine. Some of those carbon deposits help to block blow by and keep things in line. 

If you use that method which produced smoke, be prepared for the cops or fire dept coming up. We had a diesel vw golf that had a block heater. One cold night in a parking lot it was too cold to start and at that time we did not use starter fluid on diesels or that comfortable with changing glow plugs. Anyway we just jumped it with anothe car and let on the starter. It seemed to sound like it was going to start, it produced smoke out the rear end, but it would never catch. Anyway, cops were concerned about a fire hazzard, so we just left and had the car towed. 

We have had great success with starting fluid and diesels. THe best way is to mist it over the intake while cranking and slowly moving it closer as it sounds like its catching.


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## PlayboyJoeShmoe (Oct 2, 2004)

If the beast gets even a good whiff of Starting Fluid, it sounds like it is Hydrolocking and or trying to start backwards.

It REALLY doesn't like it!

I had two bad glowplugs last year. Often, when the truck did catch, it threw some pretty wicked smoke.

I've never had a cop look twice.


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