# ER-40 Collet set showed up today.



## Mirage_Man (Mar 31, 2009)

I've been waiting for quite some time for these and they finally showed up today. They were drop shipped from Bison. 

The box appeared to be in good condition.







The wooden box inside looked good too.






Here's the set info.






Upon opening the box I discovered more than half the collets were stuck in the their respective holes. 











After some frustration and choice words I ended up having to break loose part of the plywood shelf that holds the collets to get them out.


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## StrikerDown (Mar 31, 2009)

Brian,

Nice looking set, they must have had a rough boat ride from poland! 

If it looks like they will easily drop into the holes again you could always glue some plywood shims under the collets to set them up higher in the holes.

What is the advantages/s of the ER collets over R-8's. Looks like they might be faster to change out, tooling etc?

What is the size range on those?


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## Mirage_Man (Mar 31, 2009)

StrikerDown said:


> Brian,
> 
> Nice looking set, they must have had a rough boat ride from poland!
> 
> ...



Well basically they allow a much wider gripping range per collet. They also eliminate the need to mess with the draw bar every time you need to change a collet.

Maybe Barry will chime in here shortly. He undoubtedly will have more info. In fact he is one of the main reasons I went with this set and size.


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## gadget_lover (Mar 31, 2009)

That's a nice looking set. Congrats!

With a relatively small set of ER collets (compared to R8) you can cover every size from 1/8 inch to the max size of the set.

With R8 the piece you want to hold has to be very close to the nominal size of the collet. This is not a problem if you are using it to hold a 1/4 inch end mill or a fly cutter with a 1/2 inch shaft. It is a problem if you have a dial indicator on a 13mm shaft. Don't ask me how I know. 

In many cases the ER collet will hold more firmly, since the collet will compress from the front AND the back at the same time. The R8 will only compress at the front of the collet. Using my own collets for comparison, the R8 collets have less gripping area... generally less than an inch. 



Daniel


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## StrikerDown (Apr 1, 2009)

Note to self:

In addition to the new R-8 and C-5 Collet sets look for ER collets!

MAN... Buying a mill is cheap compared to all the tools that you need to do anything with it!


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## Mick (Apr 1, 2009)

I noticed that some ER40 collet sets have 25 collets for the full range but your Bison set has only 15. Are the Bison collets wider range than others?


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## precisionworks (Apr 1, 2009)

Brian,

Welcome to The Dark Side I had a feeling that you'd purchase the ER40 set ... after using it for a while, you'll wonder why you didn't buy it sooner.



> What is the advantage of the ER collet over R-8


The two biggest strengths are near perfect concentricity plus tremendous holding power.

R8 collets, even the very best available, will introduce tool runout of at least double that of a similar quality ER collet. That means that when an end mill is turning in the spindle, and work is being fed into the tool, some of the flutes will have a tiny chip load, while the flutes on the opposite side will have a much higher chip load. The tool will wear unevenly, and it will cut unevenly. Tool life, especially solid carbide & inserted carbide tools, suffer the worst. Tool life, using an ER collet, can be as much as 3X greater than the same tool held in an R8 collet ... and carbide tooling isn't cheap. A good article on how reduced runout increases tool life: http://www.mmsonline.com/articles/the-real-cost-of-runout.aspx

Grip strength of the ER is roughly double that of the R8. When you're gripping a solid carbide shank that's been ultra finished (which is common), the ER will hold without slipping. It does this because the grip force is spread out over 16 contact surfaces, versus only 3 for the R8.

ER collets can hold a twist drill on the shank OR on the flutes, can hold an end mill up to 1.025" shank diameter, and can drive a threading tap. Holding a drill on the flutes is something I often do, as there is less tool extension, which means less flex in the drill. Also, if you're working on a tall part, a short drill gives you a little more daylight to work with.

If I'm doing a job with lost of milling plus some drilling, the ER chuck stays in the spindle. The drill chuck is used only when lots of drilling (and no milling) is involved, especially when there are many drill size changes.



> some ER40 collet sets have 25 collets for the full range but your Bison set has only 15.


A "full" set of ER40 is 23 collets. Mine also started with 17, just like Brian has, and I purchased the other 6. Penn Tool has the individual Bison collets for about $12 each, so another $75 will complete the set.



> Are the Bison collets wider range than others


All ER40 collets have a 1mm (.040") grip range, no matter who makes them.

I really believe that the best money you can spend on a lathe is a quick change tool post, and the best investment in a mill is the Bison ER40 collet set.


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## gadget_lover (Apr 1, 2009)

I could be wrong, but there appears to be different "sets" avaiable.

On the one hand, a 25 collet set will handle every size between 1/8 and 3/4 plus sizes near 7/8 and 1 inch. This would be useful for gripping work in a lathe.

On the other hand, I see 15 collet sets that will match all the standard tool shanks in 1/8 inch increments. That would work well for a mill to hold tools.


Daniel

Barry beat me to the punch, simply because it took me two hours to hit "submit". Not Fair!


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## precisionworks (Apr 1, 2009)

Just a couple of thoughts ... I pulled all the trays out of my box & made a new tray to hold the full set. Used a piece of 1/2" baltic birch ply, then made a label for each row so that each collet would be easy to find. The set comes with a hook wrench (for the clamping nut), but does not come with an open end wrench to hold the body. My wrench is the closest size smaller that could be found, and the jaws were milled open to just a few thousandths over, so the fit is nice & tight. The handle of the hook wrench was built up by welding a flat strip to each side, and both wrench handles were covered in Ace Hardware rubber splicing tape.


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## Mirage_Man (Apr 1, 2009)

precisionworks said:


> Just a couple of thoughts ... I pulled all the trays out of my box & made a new tray to hold the full set. Used a piece of 1/2" baltic birch ply, then made a label for each row so that each collet would be easy to find. The set comes with a hook wrench (for the clamping nut), but does not come with an open end wrench to hold the body. My wrench is the closest size smaller that could be found, and the jaws were milled open to just a few thousandths over, so the fit is nice & tight. The handle of the hook wrench was built up by welding a flat strip to each side, and both wrench handles were covered in Ace Hardware rubber splicing tape.



Funny, I just was in the shop looking at the holder thinking about getting a wrench for the body. It measures 1.658" so a 1+9/16" wrench is probably the right one to get?


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## precisionworks (Apr 1, 2009)

That's probably the easiest size to find, although a 41mm would also get close to the size you'll need. Mine came from "Buffalo Joe's", the local source for all Chinese tools. I expected the wrench jaws to be butter soft, but instead found them to be hard as a rock. They milled OK, but I'll grind the next one to size


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## KC2IXE (Apr 3, 2009)

precisionworks said:


> ...snip...R8 collets, even the very best available, will introduce tool runout of at least double that of a similar quality ER collet. ...snip....



Huh? I can't figure that one out. IF the ER40 collet was direct into the spindle of the mill, I'd buy it in 10e-6 seconds, but with the adaptor, you have the runout of the R8 adaptor, +- whatever the runout of the ER40 is


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## gadget_lover (Apr 3, 2009)

KC2IXE said:


> Huh? I can't figure that one out. IF the ER40 collet was direct into the spindle of the mill, I'd buy it in 10e-6 seconds, but with the adaptor, you have the runout of the R8 adaptor, +- whatever the runout of the ER40 is



I'm probably wrong, but....

The R8 is single angle. As the collet is pulled into the spindle the 3 collet sides are squeezed together near the end. It's a perfect fit for only one size. Anything bigger or smaller will cause the collet to hold tighter on one end or another.

An er collet, on the other hand, collapses uniformly from both ends, and in many smaller slices. It will remain concentric as it gets squeezed, and it grips from both ends of the collet.

An R8 adapter is centered by the angle in the spindle, but does not deform, so it can be pretty accurate. That lets the ER collet be more accurate than an R8 in the same spindle.

An R8 can be very accurate for a single size.

Daniel


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## precisionworks (Apr 3, 2009)

> The R8 is single angle.


Daniel is exactly right ... the three gripping segments are collapsed as the drawbar pulls the collet into the spindle taper. Of all the collet systems, R8 is the weakest & least accurate ... but Bridgeport introduced it during WWII as a proprietary workholding system. Before R8, there were numerous Brown & Sharpe tapers, as well as Morse tapers, but Bridgeport became the "standard" small knee mill & the R8 spindle went along for the ride. That doesn't make it a great system, but it means that you'll see lots of R8 tooling.

There is a "double angle collet" available that isn't used too much today. The DA collet is made for drilling only, not for milling, but it's cheap ... and none too accurate.

The ER & TG collets are the best of the currently available spring collet systems. I've never had a solid carbide end mill pull out of an ER collet, but this is common with R8. TG collets are the next step up, as their range of collapse is half as much, grip is twice as much, and twice as many are needed to cover the same range of sizes. 

I'll do a quick test with the same carbide end mill, using an R8 & and ER40 collet, and test for runout at four diameters below the spindle nose (standard testing protocol). Should be able to post back this evening.

ON EDIT: My inconclusive testing has been done, using one solid carbide end mill - extended length. The tool brand is Robb-Jack, which sells primarily to aerospace companies & high end mold shops. They guarantee tool shank roundness to be better than 25 millionths (.000025"). The tool # is FM-204-20-120. http://www.robbjack.com/index.html

Satco Supply, on eBay, always has quite a few.

The shank is .625", and the dial test tip was located as low as possible before the flutes started. The ER40 showed a consistent .0005" TIR, no matter how many times the end mill was removed, turned 90 deg, and reinserted. About average performance for ER40.

The R8 showed slightly more than double that, at .0011" TIR. Removing & reinserting the tool did not yield a better or worse reading. 

For every 0.0001" improvement in TIR, you gain 10% additional tool life (carbide tooling).


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## KC2IXE (Apr 3, 2009)

How would you compare the runout or ER40 collets to say, cat30 or cat 40 tool holders? Or say R8 end mill holders, which would be solid like the ER40 adaptor

I once worked with a Series 1 sized mill (can't remember the brand) that used Cat30 holders - kinda interesting


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## gadget_lover (Apr 3, 2009)

The R8 end mill holders that I have are, like you said, as accurate as the spindle of the mill and the quality of the tool.


Daniel


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## precisionworks (Apr 3, 2009)

> runout of ER40 collets to say, cat 30 or cat 40 tool holders?



Lyndex offers ER40 collets in a number of collet chucks. Straight shank, R8, CT40, CT50, BT40, BT50, NMTB30, NMTB40, NMTB50, etc. No matter what size collet chuck, they guarantee .0003" at the collet nose, and less than .0004" at 4 diameters below the collet nose. The larger toolholders do a better job of transmitting cutting forces to the spindle, and the spindles & quills are massive - these machines often weigh over 20,000#.

http://www.workholding.com/lyncolletchucks.pdf


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## Mirage_Man (Apr 4, 2009)

precisionworks said:


> Just a couple of thoughts ... I pulled all the trays out of my box & made a new tray to hold the full set. Used a piece of 1/2" baltic birch ply, then made a label for each row so that each collet would be easy to find. The set comes with a hook wrench (for the clamping nut), but does not come with an open end wrench to hold the body. My wrench is the closest size smaller that could be found, and the jaws were milled open to just a few thousandths over, so the fit is nice & tight. The handle of the hook wrench was built up by welding a flat strip to each side, and both wrench handles were covered in Ace Hardware rubber splicing tape.



I picked up a 1+5/8" wrench and milled it like you suggested. Mucho easier to tighten and loosen the nut now!

A couple pics..


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## kromeke (Apr 10, 2009)

Precisionworks,

What brand of R8 did you use for your test? 

I was also going to ask you to cite your data for this statement:


> R8 collets, even the very best available, will introduce tool runout of at least double that of a similar quality ER collet.


I see you've done some informal testing. Is that all you've done? Or do you have more data to back this up? 

To the rest:
R8 is meant to be used with the correct size anyway. I'm not sure of the tolerance, but it should be really close to the collet size. 

How do end mill holders stack up on the runout department. I'm speaking of the weldon style holders. I always thought they'd have some runout due to the asymmetric style of the setscrew, but it has never been a concern, good parts get made with my tooling, be it R8, ER, or EM holder.


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## KC2IXE (Apr 10, 2009)

what I was wondering is if someone made a replacement NMTB spindle for my mill (Burke Millrite - same as a Powermatic)


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## precisionworks (Apr 10, 2009)

> What brand of R8 did you use for your test?


Lyndex for the R8 ... they are as nice as any I've ever used, and have less runout than most others. 



> Or do you have more data to back this up?


Those observations are widely cited on the web, which is the initial reason I switched to ER collets. 

_Royal ER Collet Chucks are among the most accurate on the market:_

_0.0001" TIR max. guaranteed between the O.D. taper and I.D. socket. Overall system accuracy guaranteed to be 0.0003" TIR or better when using Royal ultra-precison ER collets._
http://www.royalprod.com/product.cfm?catID=25&ID=76

*ER40 Single Angle Standard Collets*



_Provides approximately 2:1 grip advantage._
https://webtest.kennametal.com/e-ca...34046&navAction=push&item=category:6424&logo=

There may be R8 collets that will match 0.0003" TIR, but the best I've found are 0.0005" TIR ... which is not double the runout, it's only 60% more runout

Every reduction in runout of 0.0001" adds 10% to carbide tooling life.



> R8 is meant to be used with the correct size anyway.


That's one of the biggest problems with R8 ... you need one collet for every 64th inch size, to have a complete set, and one collet for every mm size ... that means roughly 64 inch sizes + 25 mm sizes, for a total of 89 collets. Even at only $10 each, you'll spend double the cost of an ER chuck & collet set.


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## StrikerDown (Apr 10, 2009)

Mirage_Man said:


> I picked up a 1+5/8" wrench and milled it like you suggested. Mucho easier to tighten and loosen the nut now!
> 
> A couple pics..




Brian,

With that wrench not having too much in the way of flat/straight surface to clamp on to how did you hold it for milling?

This is my biggest challenge so far, figuring out the best way to hold the work piece!

I was really sweatin a couple days ago with an $1,100.00 1911 in the vice!


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## Mirage_Man (Apr 10, 2009)

StrikerDown said:


> Brian,
> 
> With that wrench not having too much in the way of flat/straight surface to clamp on to how did you hold it for milling?
> 
> ...



I used parallels in the vice with the wrench on its side. I only had a small amount to grab on to but as you can see it was enough. Then I just indicated it in and milled away.


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## KC2IXE (Apr 10, 2009)

precisionworks said:


> ...snip.... 25 mm sizes, for a total of 89 collets. Even at only $10 each, you'll spend double the cost of an ER chuck & collet set.



What's this mm stuff you talking about?

On top of that, in the what, 9 years I've had my full sized mill, I'd say 90% of my work was done with an endmill that was either 3/8", 1/2" or 3/4" in diameter (true, I'm usually running HSS endmills - speaking of endmills, I decided to try the OSG HYPRO V endmills - anyone have any experience?)


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## precisionworks (Apr 10, 2009)

> 90% of my work was done with an endmill that was either 3/8", 1/2" or 3/4" in diameter



All my end mills, now, are solid carbide ... probably close to 100 total. The largest are 1", the smallest are 1/8", and almost every size in between is filled in 1/16" increments.

The size range of ER collets really comes into play when they're used for drilling or tapping, something nearly impossible to do with an R8 collet. The ER collet chuck stays in the spindle 90% of the time, unless a job calls for small drill & tap work - where the keyless chuck is quicker. Or the boring head or tapping head has to be mounted.


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## KC2IXE (Apr 11, 2009)

precisionworks said:


> All my end mills, now, are solid carbide ... probably close to 100 total. The largest are 1", the smallest are 1/8", and almost every size in between is filled in 1/16" increments.
> 
> The size range of ER collets really comes into play when they're used for drilling or tapping, something nearly impossible to do with an R8 collet. The ER collet chuck stays in the spindle 90% of the time, unless a job calls for small drill & tap work - where the keyless chuck is quicker. Or the boring head or tapping head has to be mounted.



Yeah, I can see that with drills/taps (you machine has rigid tapping, or you using a releasing tap holder?) - Ditto Carbide mills, as the body sizes are all different. I learned back in the "old days" on a clapped out Bridgeport - yeah, it was a J head, but...

One of my huge problems for the last 8-9 years has been shop time. A HUGE problem. First we moved (I hate moving - moving machines is no fun) then my son was an infant, so that took time, then both parents went through their final illnesses, then _I_ got so sick I could not stand in front of a machine. I'm finally starting to get some shop time back

No real flashlight projects, but I have a live steam engine I started oh, 10 years ago. I want to remake the frames - again (4th time) 1st time was on a Sherline, the other 2 times were on a small horizontal mill with a vertical head. Becaise of this, I had to shift the work 1/2 way through the job. Didn't come out right. As the frames are a couple of pieces of 1/2" sq HRS, the monitary factor is nil. Thing is, I have to buy the rest of the castings, and frankly, I'm seriously rusty. I think I want to start with something a tad less intimidating to get back in the swing of things. I'm thinking of a small, simple "steam" engine - all bar stock


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## precisionworks (Apr 11, 2009)

> you machine has rigid tapping, or you using a releasing tap holder?


Depending on the job, number of tool changes, and number of holes to tap - the tap may go in the ER collet, or it may be driven by the Tapmatic head. That head, and quite a few others, use a Jacobs Rubberflex collet, which has a number of metal fingers bonded together by an elastomer, that gets compressed in a collet chuck - similar to an ER. Then a pair or jaws clamp on the square section at the tap's end, and provide the driving force. The Rubberflex serves only to align the tap to the centerline of the spindle.


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## KC2IXE (Apr 11, 2009)

precisionworks said:


> ...snip... the tap may go in the ER collet, ...snip...



Yes, a tapmatic is on my list of "Tools I should really buy", as the engine has places where I'll be doing 50-60 holes all the same size in a row

I was just wondering how you were holding the tap in the ER collet, and syncing the spindle with the Z axis? 

Learning from a pro is always a good thing. As I said, my shop experience was always light machine shop/home shop. Now, if you want to know how to fabricate I beam structural elements, that I can dig up out of the recesses of my brain. I probably averaged 1-2 hours lathe/mill time for every 40 hours of fabricating I beams etc


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## precisionworks (Apr 11, 2009)

> how you were holding the tap in the ER collet, and syncing the spindle with the Z axis


Tapping on a mill-drill with ER collet is almost identical to tapping on a Bridgeport with the tap held in an Albrecht chuck. Drill the hole first, remove the drill & install the tap without changing X or Y position. Start the spindle at a low speed, around 100 to 200 rpm, and lower the tap until it engages the material. The tap will self feed once it engages. Hit stop when the tap has gone as far as you want, switch to reverse to back the tap out.

This works well for through holes, but blind holes are another story. For those, lower the spinning tap until it engages the material & immediately hit stop. Release the tap from the collet, mount a tap handle on the tap, and finish the hole. Some taps have a center hole in the middle of the drive square, and a dead center can be held in the spindle collet to keep the tap in perfect vertical alignment while the tap handle is turned.

FWIW, rigid tapping on the lathe is much the same. Hold the tap in a tailstock chuck & turn the machine on - back gear works great & gives a low speed. Push the tailstock forward by hand until the tap engages the material & let the tap self feed - it will pull the tailstock along with it. This works pretty well for blind holes with bigger taps (roughly 7/16" and larger), as the tap shank spins in the drill chuck when the tap hits bottom ... as long as the chuck is not gorilla tight


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## KC2IXE (Apr 11, 2009)

OK, for some reason, I thought you had a fixed quill cnc setup 

If your quill pulls down, I know that trick


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## KC2IXE (Apr 13, 2009)

BTW You convinced me to try carbide end mills. I've always been a tad wary, based partly on price. Basically, I've owned ONE carbide end mill - a 9/32 ball end, because I could only GET a 9/32 ball end in carbide - needed it to make 2 cuts.

Someone said "Check ebay" - Ah, I don't really wnat to know where folks are getting the brand name NEW solid carbide end mills to sell them at that price. What do you thing about re-sharps, when size is NOT critical?


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## precisionworks (Apr 13, 2009)

Like most things eBay, you'll want to run a couple of searches per day to find the best deals, which are often buy-it-now. Resharps are fine, and I have yet to get a bad resharp. Some stores I've dealt with:

http://stores.shop.ebay.com/AZTOOL-...bZ4QQ_sidZ40238723QQ_trksidZp4634Q2ec0Q2em322

http://stores.ebay.com/SATCO-SUPPLY...0QQcolZ4QQdirZ1QQfsubZ776055018QQftidZ2QQtZkm


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## wquiles (Apr 13, 2009)

precisionworks said:


> Resharps are fine, and I have yet to get a bad resharp.



+1. On my local discount metal/tool store (Dallas) I bought a fairly long (like 6") re-sharpened carbided tipped drill bit - something like 5/8" diameter or so. It works AWESOME on the Delrin and Al pieces I have, like a hot knife on butter. Much better than any HSS drill I have tried so far. It was like $6-7 -> super great buy. I have a few end mills re-charpened from the same store, and they all work/cut nice 

Will


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## KC2IXE (Apr 13, 2009)

I'll tell you, those ebay prices are better than even say "sale" MSC prices - I've had a MSC account for years now, and live so close to Travers Tool it's silly (about 10 minutes drive - I always do "will call")


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## KC2IXE (Apr 17, 2009)

BTW, now that I've been searching ebay for carbide, I can understand ER40 collets a lot more. You buy HSS new, and they are almost all 3/8" weldon shank if the cutter is 3/8" and below, then a jump to 1/2" etc - 2 or 3 quality R8 collets, and you were good to go. Sigh - more money to spend

I hope the "no name, but good spec" carbide cutter I just bought (won't quote the carbide spec, but, and it's a TiAlN cutter) is OK - at $20 it's a live and learn. Guy has some deals on 1/2 cutters too (That's next size. If they are good, I'll buy 2-3 to stock)


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## precisionworks (Apr 17, 2009)

> won't quote the carbide spec, but, and it's a TiAlN cutter



The raw material for inserts is tungsten carbide powder ( or tungsten carbide-cobalt, boron-carbide, titanium-carbide, tantalum-carbide, etc.) This can either be virgin or reprocessed.

Virgin powders are freshly formulated, never pressed, identical micron size. Iscar, Valenite, Seco, Kenna, all use virgin powders.

Repro powders are made by dumping thousands of pound of used inserts into a specialized grinder-pulverizer. Some of the resulting powder will have glass hard substrates, some will have soft but tough substrates,etc. Not that it matters, as this hodge podge of powders gets blended together and pressed into "new" (actually recycled) carbide inserts. No one on earth can tell you anything about the substrate, but for a buck or two per insert, they may be worth the price ... or they may be a waste of time & money.

Which is why name brand inserts cost $5-$15 each, and Pacific Rim inserts cost $1


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## KC2IXE (Apr 17, 2009)

OK - this is the end mill I bought

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&item=180344923466


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## precisionworks (Apr 17, 2009)

Made in USA, superfinished shank, nice looking tool


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## KowShak (Apr 17, 2009)

precisionworks said:


> for a buck or two per insert, they may be worth the price ... or they may be a waste of time & money.



For the money, I'd prefer to buy branded inserts from ebay, they are often available in small quantities for less money than "new" Chinese inserts and you know what you're getting. The downside is that if you need quantities of un-common insert ebay won't be able to provide them.


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## KC2IXE (Apr 17, 2009)

Inserts, I like Kennametal (You guys HAVE seen my web page on carbide for the HSM? Been up for YEARS, I was one of the first HSMs to seriously advocate carbide on the lathe

Carbide for the HSM

Like I said, I read the specs on that endmill I bought, they LOOKED good, now the question is, how does it hold up. For $17.50 (with free shipping), I figured "what the heck - Made in USA Micrograin carbide, how bad can it be"


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## KC2IXE (May 21, 2009)

Brian,

Old thread, but - where did you get the collet set? My arm might be twisted enough


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## Mirage_Man (May 21, 2009)

KC2IXE said:


> Brian,
> 
> Old thread, but - where did you get the collet set? My arm might be twisted enough



I got it through Matt at http://www.machinetoolonline.com . I've seen several different sets on line at different sites as well. If you do get one I don't think you'll be disappointed.


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## PEU (May 21, 2009)

I'm a repeat customer of this ebay shop: http://shop.ebay.com/merchant/mingolodge just checked and he has only one endmill listed, maybe they expired hours ago, usually 100 listings or more. 
I usually order a single one at ebay and then close the deal private to save on combined shipping.

A couple of weeks ago ordered about a dozen of endmills around 1/4" size


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