# Jeers to David Chow - 4Sevens - he took my money and my flashlight



## Zot (Feb 28, 2018)

It is a sad day that I have to post this. I have been a member here for a while and remember when David first opened his 4Sevens web site. I purchased many lights since then and I still enjoy them. Unfortunately, my last transaction with 4Sevens was a bad one and this post is my last resort attempt to resolve this.

David took my money and my light and left me without either.

I purchase a light from 4Sevens website in October. When I got it it did not work as expected. I emailed 4Sevens, they agreed to replace my light and gave me a RMA number. I received an email reply from 4Sevens in December that they received my light and that RMAs were processed in the order they were received. 

I never heard from 4Sevens again. 

I called and emailed 4Sevens web site several times. When I called I never got a person on the phone, but I left messages. Then I heard that 4Sevens was closing. I tried to contact David here but his mailbox was full.

David, if you read this, I hope you will fix this.


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## archimedes (Feb 28, 2018)

Have you been in contact with the new owner yet ?


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## ironhorse (Feb 28, 2018)

Sometimes things slip through the cracks and get missed. I'm sure David or Jason will make it right.


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## seery (Feb 28, 2018)

Zot said:


> I never heard from 4Sevens again.
> 
> I called and emailed 4Sevens web site _several times_.
> 
> ...





ironhorse said:


> Sometimes things slip through the cracks and get missed. I'm sure David or Jason will make it right.



Yes, sometimes things fall through the cracks. But in this case, it is more than things.

The OP has gone above and beyond [what is considered reasonable] in an attempt to resolve this.

There are always two sides, but it's looking like he has indeed been ripped off.


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## idleprocess (Feb 28, 2018)

Transitions are hard. I dealt with a major one in 2016 as my business unit was sold to another company. This was a multibillion dollar deal and it went over ... less than gracefully. I hope you get resolution from Prometheus.


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## jimbo231 (Feb 28, 2018)

I don't believe this is intentional........it sucks you have to do this but I believe it will get resolved...I think it's due to the owners switching ect


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## Roger Sully (Feb 28, 2018)

Zot what light was it that you are missing?


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## Ozythemandias (Mar 1, 2018)

seery said:


> Yes, sometimes things fall through the cracks. But in this case, it is more than things.
> 
> The OP has gone above and beyond [what is considered reasonable] in an attempt to resolve this.
> 
> There are always two sides, but it's looking like he has indeed been ripped off.



Ripped off is the wrong word. It’s not like THE (former) OWNER OF FOURSEVENS has the need to steal your light. 

Yes it probably slipped through the cracks and was inadvertent. If David makes it right or not will be telling of his character, now there are basically no repercussions if he does not.


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## nbp (Mar 1, 2018)

archimedes said:


> Have you been in contact with the new owner yet ?



Zot, have you done this yet? Jason Hui and David Chow have been working together for a while to transition ownership and assets and Jason is now handling repairs/replacements.


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## archimedes (Mar 1, 2018)

archimedes said:


> Have you been in contact with the new owner yet ?





nbp said:


> Zot, have you done this yet? Jason Hui and David Chow have been working together for a while to transition ownership and assets and Jason is now handling repairs/replacements.



Although it has not yet been 24 hours since this thread was posted, OP has made strong statements here and the above information is quite relevant.

It would be good for @Zot to update this thread at the earliest, and I would rather other members refrain from further speculation until this is better clarified.

Thank you all in advance.


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## archimedes (Mar 1, 2018)

Also, just for reference, some of the policies listed here ...

http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb...stion-Thread&p=5186531&viewfull=1#post5186531

... may be of interest.


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## Zot (Mar 1, 2018)

I sent an email to [email protected] and got an automated reply. 
"We've received your request and will get back to you as soon as we can!"
Let's see what happens next.

Can anyone tell me the CPF usernames of Trevor (TJ) or Jason Hui ?


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## nbp (Mar 1, 2018)

This is Jason's subforum. http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/forumdisplay.php?134-Prometheus-Lights-(Dark-Sucks)

This is his username. http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/member.php?134216-archer6817j


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## Zot (Mar 1, 2018)

I just sent Jason a PM here.


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## archimedes (Mar 1, 2018)

Thank you for the update, please keep us informed here.


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## HarryN (Mar 4, 2018)

Just reading the information on the web site, my understanding is:

The "brand and some of the modern flashlight designs" were purchased, not the company, assets, older designs, or liabilities.

The original "company" is "closed", usually meaning that it's liabilities are essentially wiped out, or very difficult to collect from.

I am not an attorney but have dealt with some business closings as both customer and supplier. My perception is that no one actually owes you anything legally, so your best bet is to be patient / nice to them and see what happens.

Think about what you might do if you had purchased some drawings and rights to build a product from a company, and then one of their former customers came to you and said that you owe them a free one because of brand loyalty? Imagine dipping into your own wallet to purchase a product for this person when you have made neither sale nor profit from it?

Suppose a car mechanic moves into the location of a former car mechanic shop, and purchased the right to use the former owner's name on the door but that is all. Would you expect the new owner to warrant an engine replacement done by the former mechanic?


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## FlashKat (Mar 4, 2018)

His claim was done before they officially closed. 4 Sevens/David Cow owes him a replacement or refund.


HarryN said:


> Just reading the information on the web site, my understanding is:
> 
> The "brand and some of the modern flashlight designs" were purchased, not the company, assets, older designs, or liabilities.
> 
> ...


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## nbp (Mar 4, 2018)

Here is extensive info from Jason on Foursevens products warranty. Click Foursevens warranty. 

https://darksucks.com/pages/warranty-returns


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## bykfixer (Mar 5, 2018)

^^ Great info.

It was a weird time in the 4sevens story that was unfortunate for the op.
I'm pretty sure folks will make it right asap. Just be patient and things will work out.


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## Zot (Mar 13, 2018)

Prometheus Support contacted me to say they would look into it, but didn’t have any timeline. The last email I got was 8 days ago.


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## Zot (Mar 13, 2018)

Can anyone help me contact David Chow directly? 

Maybe someone here emails, chats or talks with him and could point him to this thread
I haven't heard anything from David...

He never contacted me.


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## archimedes (Mar 13, 2018)

It may be possible he is not interested in communicating further with someone who has publicly "jeered" him....


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## Zot (Mar 13, 2018)

I do not think that comment is fair Archimedes. 

I think you left out the part where he failed to respond to several attempts to contact him by email and by phone before any jeer was even considered. I have not said anything that is not true in this jeer. As I stated, it is a last resort.

Many at CPF, including myself, considered David Chow a great member of CPF. That, to me, would be even more reason for David to make some attempt to resolve this jeer.



archimedes said:


> It may be possible he is not interested in communicating further with someone who has publicly "jeered" him....


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## archimedes (Mar 13, 2018)

I didn't leave anything out, Zot, all of those details are listed in this thread.

I am sorry you don't think that is fair, and whether you (or I, for that matter) think this situation is fair or not, does not change the reality of my post.

It also bears noting here, as well, that I genuinely hope you get a satisfactory resolution to your unfortunate situation.

Good luck.


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## archimedes (Mar 13, 2018)

PM sent to you, also.


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## wacbzz (Apr 8, 2018)

Has this been resolved? This thread could push folks one way or the other with the new owner/business depending upon the outcome...


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## scout24 (Apr 8, 2018)

I politely disagree, wacbzz. I would think looking at the new owner's track record standing behind his own products would be far more telling than how or if he chooses to clean up someone else's situations.


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## wacbzz (Apr 8, 2018)

Disagreements - politeness notwithstanding - are what make the world, including CPF, go around. 

As as I see it, since the new owner apparently wrote that he would look into it, PL is now involved, whether they want to be or not. The outcome, to me _and regardless of the “thoughts” of others_, will most certainly weigh heavily upon any future actions, _particularly with the FourSevens brand_. The past is yesterday and the future is now. 

So, my original question still stands, almost a month after the last report on the situation...

Has this been resolved?


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## bykfixer (Apr 8, 2018)

wacbzz said:


> Has this been resolved? This thread could push folks one way or the other with the new owner/business depending upon the outcome...



Agreed. 
However reading the new owner statement confirmed my thoughts on future purchases. The no holds bar'd candor is what cemented my decision.


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## scout24 (Apr 8, 2018)

wacbzz said:


> Disagreements - politeness notwithstanding - are what make the world, including CPF, go around.
> 
> As as I see it, since the new owner apparently wrote that he would look into it, PL is now involved, whether they want to be or not. The outcome, to me _and regardless of the “thoughts” of others_, will most certainly weigh heavily upon any future actions, _particularly with the FourSevens brand_. The past is yesterday and the future is now.
> 
> ...



Almost a month. In the midst of trying to affect a transition of ownership, have a life, a small handful of employees, etc. I don't think giving him some more time, or seeing if there has been followup communication woild be unwarranted. Had the 4sevens light been returned to Jason's people after the transfer, I may be more inclined to be toe tapping waiting for resolution. I still feel hs's in the unenviable situation of cleaning up someone else's mess.


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## bykfixer (Apr 8, 2018)

^^ It's a touchy one aint it Scout?
The precedent could have a profound affect one way or another.
Definitely an unenviable situation.


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## Beamhead (Apr 11, 2018)

Not to add fuel to the fire but I too am curious, I had a situation with the new owner/or whom ever handles inquiries and to put it mildly communication is nil. I hope this all works out.


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## RedLED (Apr 11, 2018)

To the OP: 

Dear Sir/Madam,

Something to consider is that Mr. Chow was a respected member of the flashlight world, I hold several of his lights, however, he was sued and lost. I don't know all the details but I am certain the company had legal teams from Park Ave. in New York, and others from Market St., in Philadelphia, and Century City, CA -- he lost. And lost to deep pockets.

He may be paying huge sums to the plaintiffs on a monthly basis, and once you are crushed in our awful legal system you go from a $10,000 dollar desk to working at a Dairy Queen, with a 17 year old pepperoni pizza faced Ritalin popping high school stoner boss, and over night years of good decent work is flushed down the drain, never to be recovered. You become bankrupt, have a huge judgement against you, instantly your college education is worthless. That is our society!

If he misses even one payment, it is back to the judge. Your request for a refund to him now could be meaningless compared to what he is up against. He could have gone from a McMansion in Atlanta to God knows where, with kids, a wife who split, Mercedes repossessed, and riding a bicycle to DQ and the 17 year punk-*** old boss!

I am certain the case was tried in California, look up the verdict, it is public info. He could be forced, and possibly by his own fault to pay millions in damages, and legal fees, interest, fees and,on and, on. Regardless, if he is in a very likely situation, for myself, I'd let it go. I have sued people, and even let some of it go because the lawyers were relentles. And even the money I paid them they wore horrible-I'll fitting-cheap suits, you could see from a mile away. Never could grasp that? That is a story for another time. 

If if he has a judgement in the millions, he won't recover without some luck. Most likely never, no college for kids just paying a judgement. I suppose if he stole IP, he dug his own grave, that's how things work. 

The problem we have is you could do a lifetime of good honest things for people, and then one thing, just one...even something minor, and you never ever recover. You are finished, even after decades of good things! And it does not involve stealing IP. 

Do some research before you nail him to the cross. I say this because he did loose a suit. I have had friends worth millions loose legal battles come to me for "Two twenties to rub together." I wrote them a good sized check, he may not have friends like that. You know why? Because when you are down on your luck, people turn their backs on you, and who'll slam the door on you. He may be in a similar position. 

Also, the new owner may have no legal obligation whatsoever to assist you. You have no knowledge of any deals or contracts post suit, period. Chow was in Georgia, the other company in California. The deal probably only really results in the ownership copyrights to the name of the company only, and not IP ideas, I doubt the new owner would want anything creative without patents which Chow actually owns, and the could be of little value, or dated. Or result in the new owner being sued. This stuff gets messy fast. 

For all all we know Mr. Chow had bad pattent lawyers, and they sunk him. Of course no lawyer, DA, judge or cop is ever, ever wrong, never, never. 

My advice...forget the light and move on. You did not have your life savings taken by a Bernie Maddoff.

Really, Mr. Chow did his best, and, that is what I would like to think and believe, he could have done nothing with intent, and still lost his case, that happpens everyday. Let's hope that is the case. After all, he gave us great lights. Good luck David Chow. 

Respectfully yours, 

Sincerely,

RL


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## moshow9 (Apr 11, 2018)

OP should be made whole. Either by David or by the current owner. It's the right thing to do.


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## RedLED (Apr 12, 2018)

Understand this is the legal system, the current owner may and more than likely than not has zero obligation to pay the OP guy anything. He did not advertise, promote or offer for sale the light, or take payment and would be crazy to take on debt for a failed company. He bought the name, is my guess, and that means he, the new owner, in name only had no obligation to anyone post judgement. That is the way it goes. We don't know the post judicial deal made, until that is discovered, I don't think the new owner would absorb the debt, it could be hundreds of people.

Remember the 10 year warranty? Batteries for life, all that is binding, however if you just by the Four Sevens name, you are not responsible for something Chow did in 2010. The new owner of the name is not responsible, plus why he bought the name is to me like buying the name Titanic from White Star Lines...no real value in failed companies. 

Dark Sucks owes no one from the collapsed 47's sued in to the ground a dime. OP sorry let it go. NO wait I own many 47,s (Hated that new logo), does that mean Dark Sucks must fix my broken, still in 10 year warranty light? Aw, NO! So the OP maybe screwed, well so am I, and any one else who's bought into the David Chow Show. He is history, and is guarantees are too!

Realy, I'm fine with it. I don't expect Dark Sucks to fix my lights! These were from China, the tooling, parts, and everything's now gone...you can't hang this on a new owner who only bought a name. The original owner was sued, no new owner would take that on, you would be buying garbage from a lost lawsuit. End of the line. No one said life is fair OP, forgettabout it!!!

As far as David, you can't get blood out of a rock. Fly to Atlanta and file a small claims suit, that is your only hope. Coming here and complaining is a waste of time.


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## nbp (Apr 12, 2018)

The information linked earlier on the Dark Sucks website spells out very clearly what Jason did and didn’t buy and what he will do for those who require 47s warranty work. There isn’t much need for guesswork and speculating. It would behoove members to read over that info before posting.


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## RedLED (Apr 12, 2018)

From what I read, he only honors warranties Foursevens products purchased from Prometheus, nothing said about past Chow Era lights, past Jan 1, 2017, also it is filled with gray areas, even states, as I did, that the parts don't exist any more, and I also said they can't do, or go back 10 years. 

That was cleaverly written by an attorney which lets them do what they want. And I don't blame him, as he could be overwhelmed with repairs going back 9 years. He also very clearly states, he assumes no debt, or liabilities from the old 47's which ceases to exist. 

Unless you bought your light after 1-17-2017, they can decide to do whatever they want.

Also, the "Don't be a jerk clause," I've never seen anything like that in 50 years of business - anywhere.


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## RedLED (Apr 12, 2018)

nbp said:


> The information linked earlier on the Dark Sucks website spells out very clearly what Jason did and didn’t buy and what he will do for those who require 47s warranty work. There isn’t much need for guesswork and speculating. It would behoove members to read over that info before posting.



Nick,

You are are a great guy, we by and sell from each other, however, go to the warranty page, on the right hand side it is not good for a lot of people. I stand by my stories, which I have no sources for, and it is just my speculation, I may not be 100%, but I'm close. 

What at I was 100% on was he just bought the name, that's all. Very common in business. 

All the best, 

No hard feelings,

NR


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## bykfixer (Apr 13, 2018)

David went surfing. So he traded the company for a lifetime supply of boardwax and sunscreen. 
He hangs out at McGizmos pad and McGizmo takes him snorkling everytime David gets the urge to check emails.

Hang loose brah!


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## divine (Apr 18, 2018)

Did we ever hear what light the OP was looking for help with?

I have a small (very specific) pile of 4sevens lights that aren't very valuable to me and probably not worth relying on if the warranty is voided. I do use 4sevens lights as backups and stuff, but if I had one sitting unused that would help the OP, I would consider letting it go.

Don't forget that David didn't just create a company and some things, but he created a community along with it.


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## Chauncey Gardiner (Apr 19, 2018)

divine said:


> Did we ever hear what light the OP was looking for help with?
> 
> I have a small (very specific) pile of 4sevens lights that aren't very valuable to me and probably not worth relying on if the warranty is voided. I do use 4sevens lights as backups and stuff, but if I had one sitting unused that would help the OP, I would consider letting it go.
> 
> Don't forget that David didn't just create a company and some things, but he created a community along with it.



That's a really generous offer, divine. If you end up sending OP a light, I'm in for some funds to cover your cost. If the light isn't available, I'm in for some funds to make OP whole. 

~ Chance


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## Kid9P (Apr 20, 2018)

Divine and Chance,

It’s nice to see that such acts of kindness are still a part of CPF !!
Folks like yourselves are what makes CPF special. 

Ray


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## divine (Apr 20, 2018)

Here is my culprit, it sits on my desk at work.


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## Crazyeddiethefirst (Apr 21, 2018)

I too will volunteer funds to make it right. David was always fair and honorable in every dealing I ever had with the company. I will also volunteer parts(if I have them) to aid the cause.


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## KITROBASKIN (Apr 21, 2018)

The member who started this thread shows no recent activity on his personal profile. There is no indication when he last visited CPF other than his last edit on March 13.

Two of his links in his sigline are defunct.

Perhaps he has 'moved on'?


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## Kid9P (Apr 21, 2018)

I’m sure Zot will eventually come around at one point or another.

He’s been a member since 2006


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## RedLED (Apr 21, 2018)

You can include me to the group willing to assst. If I have any spare 47's parts, and I do have a very small size but, modest selections could still assist. However, most of you have some great collections. Really amazing. 

If I can help, I'd be happy to assist. I was excuslively in the MiNi area of 47's. Just so people don't waste time, I am going to miss that old Web Site, from the day's the Promotional Titanium MiNi's were launched. They were the ones I loved the most, and, also bought the most of. 

With any luck the new owner will be able to handle most if the needs, unless, of course, it is a major problem, and then, well, even they may be at a loss. 

Businesses closing are bad all the way around.

Regardless, good luck to all 47's collectors.

Best, 

RL


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## Eric242 (Apr 23, 2018)

KITROBASKIN said:


> There is no indication when he last visited CPF other than his last edit on February 28.


I´d say it´s rather obvious he´s at least been here on march 2nd and march 13th


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## cy (Apr 23, 2018)

sure sorry to hear about David Chow - 4Sevens .. he earned a lot of good will 
put me on the list of helping to make OP whole .. not on CPF much anymore so it may take a bit for me to respond.


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## KITROBASKIN (Apr 23, 2018)

Eric242 said:


> I´d say it´s rather obvious he´s at least been here on march 2nd and march 13th


Changed earlier post to reflect your observation. It's still over a month. And it still sounds like David's given more than he's 'taken' from anyone. Don't seem to see any jeer thread from him about the folks that sued him, crippling his business. Business is business. We move on...


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## divine (Apr 28, 2018)

KITROBASKIN said:


> Changed earlier post to reflect your observation. It's still over a month. And it still sounds like David's given more than he's 'taken' from anyone. Don't seem to see any jeer thread from him about the folks that sued him, crippling his business. Business is business. We move on...


I've had my ups and downs with 4sevens, too. I've had limited luck with customer support, which might have been my own bad luck. I gifted a AA twisty to an EMT, which broke, he had bad experience with customer service. The EMT ended up giving up on 4sevens and getting another brand.

I do like David's ideas and products as long as they work. I do carry a HDS for the reliability more than anything else. I have several items from 4sevens that I use as backups and loaners.


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## Kestrel (Apr 29, 2018)

One thought from reading this thread; please keep in mind that this conversation shouldn't transition into a general discussion thread, so please minimize any extraneous postings & thoughts. Best regards,


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## Zot (Jul 9, 2018)

I haven't posted here in a while because I do not have any updates from David Chow or Prometheus. 
But WOW, I do see many generous offers from the people that make CPF such a great community. That really makes me feel good


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## Zot (Jul 25, 2018)

My latest update:

Despite my many efforts through email, phone calls and CPF posts I never heard from David Chow. 
He took my money and my flashlight. That is undisputed.
He chose to taint his reputation here and that is unfortunate.
I have to give David and 4Sevens a big :fail:

I also contacted Prometheus - Dark Sucks.
They said they would try to help.
They didn't make any effort that I am aware of to resolve this.
They only time I ever heard from them was when I reached out to them and all I got were empty promises.
I have to give Prometheus - Dark Sucks a big :fail: too


To the CPF community in general and to divine in particular, who generously send me his copper Mini
lovecpf
Last night I was playing with it in my backyard with and boy is it bright! 

My lesson, when the going gets tough, the CPF community is there to help. That is what makes the CPF community so great. Thank you everyone!

:grouphug:

I think this thread can be closed.


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## Empath (Jul 25, 2018)

Zot said:


> I think this thread can be closed.


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