# New Leadlight APC - Modders beware of new luckyduck, bigha and jasper lasers.



## dr_lava (Feb 11, 2007)

A year ago when luckyduck had their APCfor40 sale, I bought a few and successfully modded them from 20-40mW, following the 'unsafe' thread here.
They had 400mA capable diodes, nice large 2x2mm MCAs (lasing crystals), and were reasonably easy to open.

Well, I called luckyduck about their new $35 deal, and asked if the lasers were of the same quality as they had in the past. The owner responded in the affirmative, and stated that the manufacturer's price just lowers once in a while. Welllllll, I found differently. Bigha, jasper laser, and luckyduck (all the same company) now carry the new chinese leadlights, lower quality and lower output capability. They accepted no returns for the new lasers I bought.



Here's a front shot: Note the larger aperture in the cap. Also, the collimating lens is beleived to be plastic.








Inside, the optic stack is rearranged, with the IR filter inside the black holder instead of on top of the last lens. Also, the MCA is only about 1mm square now. The MCA in this laser could only put out 5mW max, that trailed off to 3mW in a few seconds. Also, 90% of the MCA area could not even lase. 






The controller board has changed as well, and so I followed Corona's lead in dissecting the circuit.

















It now has two limits, the optical output limit is adjusted with the pot and there is a current feedback limit that sets the max. diode current to about 270mA.
'Mods' may come such as shorting the resistor marked R470, but if I were you, don't buy these lasers with any intention of increasing their output.


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## Hemlock Mike (Feb 11, 2007)

*Re: New Leadlight APC deconstrucetd - beware of new luckyduck, bigha and jasper lasers.*

.


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## greenlight (Feb 12, 2007)

*Re: New Leadlight APC deconstrucetd - beware of new luckyduck, bigha and jasper lasers.*

thanks for the heads up!


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## Kiessling (Feb 12, 2007)

*Re: New Leadlight APC deconstrucetd - beware of new luckyduck, bigha and jasper laser*

Thanx for that huge effort here !! :thumbsup:

Does that mean that new Jasper et al lasers will drop to 3mW and not be stable at 5mW?

bernhard


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## UnlnvlslblE (Feb 12, 2007)

*Re: New Leadlight APC deconstrucetd - beware of new luckyduck, bigha and jasper lasers.*

I just ordered one 10 mins ago for the sole purpose of modding it. I wish I read this first! I'm going to try to mod it anyways; hopefully I'll get a little bit at least. Thanks for the heads-up.


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## dr_lava (Feb 12, 2007)

*Re: New Leadlight APC deconstrucetd - beware of new luckyduck, bigha and jasper lasers.*

It varies by laser. Of the 4 lasers I bought, only one could maintain 5mW without hitting the upper current limit. I have to say, if it weren't for the poor quality MCAs and the decreased diode rating (200mW from 350mW) the driver boards would be pretty good for modding.

Visible, there's still time to cancel and put that money toward a moddable one!


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## stevetexas (Feb 12, 2007)

*Re: New Leadlight APC deconstrucetd - beware of new luckyduck, bigha and jasper lasers.*

I just received 2 of these today and, sure enough, they output VERY close to 5mW on my meter. I had a lot more trouble removing the module than with the old leadlights and didn't have any luck with a pot mod.  

I left them as they came and I now have 2 additional <5mW pointers. Still not a bad deal for $35. (and I can also use them to help re-calibrate my meter if I drop it...)


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## Hemlock Mike (Feb 12, 2007)

*Re: New Leadlight APC deconstrucetd - beware of new luckyduck, bigha and jasper lasers.*

.


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## UnlnvlslblE (Feb 13, 2007)

*Re: New Leadlight APC deconstrucetd - beware of new luckyduck, bigha and jasper laser*



dr_lava said:


> It varies by laser. Of the 4 lasers I bought, only one could maintain 5mW without hitting the upper current limit. I have to say, if it weren't for the poor quality MCAs and the decreased diode rating (200mW from 350mW) the driver boards would be pretty good for modding.
> 
> Visible, there's still time to cancel and put that money toward a moddable one!



Well $35 isn't all that much, plus I guess having a "stock" laser around is good anyways. What would you specifically recommend for a newbie modder? I really don't want to spend a ton of money. Is there anything in the $50 or so range that is easy to use and has guides up etc? Thanks for any help! (Where's the cheers emote?)


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## Nisei (Feb 13, 2007)

*Re: New Leadlight APC deconstrucetd - beware of new luckyduck, bigha and jasper lasers.*

dr_lava, are you sure these are Leadlights?
I know there's some sellers who have exact Leadlight copies from China. What does the label say?


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## dr_lava (Feb 13, 2007)

*Re: New Leadlight APC deconstrucetd - beware of new luckyduck, bigha and jasper lasers.*

Leadlight apparently has a china assembly plant, confirmed by abeland. They are not branded leadlight, they are branded and sold by the company listed. The warning isn't against leadlight in general, just those lasers sourced from the listed places.


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## Nisei (Feb 14, 2007)

*Re: New Leadlight APC deconstrucetd - beware of new luckyduck, bigha and jasper lasers.*

Yes I've heard about the Made-in-China Leadlights as well but before we rush into conclusions it might be wise to confirm these things first because there are pretty well made replica's being sold as well.
I'll ask my contact at Leadlight if she knows anything about this if it's OK with you.
Could you post a pic of the label showing the serial# please? (or pm it to me)
She can verify the number for us.


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## dr_lava (Feb 14, 2007)

*Re: New Leadlight APC deconstrucetd - beware of new luckyduck, bigha and jasper laser*

Absolutely, but be careful how you phrase your question, so you get an honest answer. They could just deny it. Serial is A601336


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## Rubycon (Feb 14, 2007)

*Re: New Leadlight APC deconstrucetd - beware of new luckyduck, bigha and jasper laser*

Wow that looks pretty crappy. 

Are those element holders actually plastic? :huh:

The original leadlights were awesome quality. They were also much more expensive - I have (parts) from several from 2001-2002 and they cost a few hundred US dollars EACH! 

I guess they have to cut corners somewhere to keep the price down.


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## noah (Feb 14, 2007)

*Re: New Leadlight APC deconstrucetd - beware of new luckyduck, bigha and jasper lasers.*

dr_lava, we don't need to lie to sell anything. If you feel you were given false info in making a purchase, we'll accept your return even if you tried to mod it. However, these lasers are made pretty much to the exact spec as always.

I showed your complaint to the engineer responsible for this product. The info below comes from his response.

1) A larger aperture is to help users to clean the lens. We have customers complained the front hole is too small. It's not easy to clean it by alcohol. 

2) The lens is glass. He should take a close look at the lens. We do consider to use plastic aspheric lens as collimating lens. Aspheric lens is useful to improve the beam quality and short the length. But it's still under evaluating, plastic aspheric lens is not applied. All the pointers are still using glass spherical lens now.

3) The MCA is 1.5x1.5mm. It's exactly the same like we used before. Although the specification of laser pointer is 2~5mW, almost all MCA can get more than 5mW output. The efficiency of MCA is also affected by temperature and the wavelength of 808nm laser diode. The temperature is changing during the laser is operating, so normally the output is not stable. That's why we design APC structure to make the output power stable. 

4) We need only one point on MCA to get green laser output. We don't care if the other area can work or not. It's useless to the product. It's the character of DPSS (Diode Pumped Solid State) laser. He should learn more about the DPSS laser.

5) All 5mW pointers in the market use 200mW 808nm laser diode. There is no manufacturer uses 350mW laser diode to make 5mW pointer. If someone use 350mW laser diode to get 5mW green output, it means the efficeiency is so bad. The quality is so poor. Of course you can over drive 200mW laser diode to get 350mW output. It may damage the laser diode. User has to take the risk by himself. But it's not acceptable to laser diode manufacturer.

6) The pointer he bought is 5mW pointer. That's what we design for. We never guarantee it should be modified to higher power, although most pointers can be modified to reach higher power. Users have to take the responsibility if they modify the pointer. 

7) The circuit is design for 5mW APC pointer. Under APC mode, the highest power can be adjusted to is 12mW. Once it's over, it will change to ACC mode and operate at 300mA. The current limit is 300mA.

8) I am glad this customer is interested in our pointer and do appreciate a lot for his comments. But I hope he can evaluate it more carefully before he puts comments.

dr_lava, you can email us directly by replying to your order confirmation email if you have any additional questions.


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## noah (Feb 14, 2007)

*Re: New Leadlight APC deconstrucetd - beware of new luckyduck, bigha and jasper lasers.*

It seems the cheaper people buy these lasers for, the more powerful they're expected to be. Everyone wants a high powered laser, or to modify it for more power.

We would love to provide everyone with all the power they want but we have to obey the law and sell <5mw.

I would say 75% of the people who buy these AAA pointers are going to try to modify them.

Please be aware that every laser has a different potential. There is no guarantee that you'll successfully mod to a specific power, and by attempting to do so you'll void any warranty claim. I think most people recognize that already though.


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## noah (Feb 14, 2007)

*Re: New Leadlight APC deconstrucetd - beware of new luckyduck, bigha and jasper lasers.*

I also want to point out that it's not just early adopters buying green lasers anymore. The product is becoming more mainstream, which means there is a mad dash to make the cheapest product possible, especially on the basic AAA pen style 5mw pointer. 

We've been working with these lasers for 3-4 years now and have never had a major quality problem. We evaluate each product and don't sell anything below the standards of our customers. In the past we've refused shipments or even thrown inventory away because of this. Not all of our inventory comes from a single manufacturer. 

I would hope people buy from us because we're a trusted source for quality products, not because we stock a single manufacturer's product.


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## Hemlock Mike (Feb 14, 2007)

*Re: New Leadlight APC deconstrucetd - beware of new luckyduck, bigha and jasper lasers.*

Noah --
I recently received one of your pointers. It outputs a stable beam at 4.95 mW according to my Sper power meter. However, It draws almost 270 mA to do that making it a poor candidate for modding. It is to spec as received however.

Mike


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## dr_lava (Feb 14, 2007)

*Re: New Leadlight APC deconstrucetd - beware of new luckyduck, bigha and jasper laser*

noah, thank you for your replies, as you know I am not a laser dealer, my only motivation was to inform other buyers about the decreased _potential _output of your lasers, and it _has_ decreased, not by your hand, but as you say by the desire of your manufacturer to decrease cost.






noah said:


> 1) A larger aperture is to help users to clean the lens. We have customers complained the front hole is too small. It's not easy to clean it by alcohol.


A fine explanation. I don't have a problem with the aperture, it is just a telltale mark of the new design.



noah said:


> 2) The lens is glass. He should take a close look at the lens. We do consider to use plastic aspheric lens as collimating lens. Aspheric lens is useful to improve the beam quality and short the length. But it's still under evaluating, plastic aspheric lens is not applied. All the pointers are still using glass spherical lens now.


It is true, I double checked the lenses I received are glass, it was some roughage at the edges that appeared to be mold flash that lead me to beleive that they could be plastic.


noah said:


> 3) The MCA is 1.5x1.5mm. It's exactly the same like we used before. Although the specification of laser pointer is 2~5mW, almost all MCA can get more than 5mW output. The efficiency of MCA is also affected by temperature and the wavelength of 808nm laser diode. The temperature is changing during the laser is operating, so normally the output is not stable. That's why we design APC structure to make the output power stable.



This is not accurate according to my findings, here is a picture, old and new:





But the size is only half of the problem, it's the quality that is the problem and it's well known that smaller MCAs typically can generate less power.



noah said:


> 4) We need only one point on MCA to get green laser output. We don't care if the other area can work or not. It's useless to the product. It's the character of DPSS (Diode Pumped Solid State) laser. He should learn more about the DPSS laser.


Again, only one point is acceptable for a <5mW pointer, but my post is geared towards modders. It's indicative of the _quality_ of the MCA, and modders are concerned about this, that's why I included that information.



noah said:


> 5) All 5mW pointers in the market use 200mW 808nm laser diode. There is no manufacturer uses 350mW laser diode to make 5mW pointer. If someone use 350mW laser diode to get 5mW green output, it means the efficeiency is so bad. The quality is so poor. Of course you can over drive 200mW laser diode to get 350mW output. It may damage the laser diode. User has to take the risk by himself. But it's not acceptable to laser diode manufacturer.


The laser diodes used in certain pointers (won't name them here) are 350 mW, and if you really want to ensure 5mW output all the time you will use these. As it stands I'm not the only one who has found that the diodes are being pushed close to their limit (260-290mA of 300mA max) to achieve even 4.5mW output.




noah said:


> 6) The pointer he bought is 5mW pointer. That's what we design for. We never guarantee it should be modified to higher power, although most pointers can be modified to reach higher power. Users have to take the responsibility if they modify the pointer.


Understandable, but my results show that these really can't be modified and are being pushed hard to achieve the designed spec.



noah said:


> 7) The circuit is design for 5mW APC pointer. Under APC mode, the highest power can be adjusted to is 12mW. Once it's over, it will change to ACC mode and operate at 300mA. The current limit is 300mA.


ok



noah said:


> I also want to point out that it's not just early adopters buying green lasers anymore. The product is becoming more mainstream, which means there is a mad dash to make the cheapest product possible, especially on the basic AAA pen style 5mw pointer.




Both of us agree on this point fully. The lasers here in question are a perfect example of manufacturing optimization - meeting the spec or close to it for the lowest price. In doing this so well, modders have no more room for improvement. Personally, I would rather pay $45 for a laser with mod potential than $35 for a maxed out 5mW laser, but everyone makes their own decision.

I end with an example chart of the typical output power from the lasers I received from you. 






As you can see, the dip in power is during a moment when the laser diode is driven to its full current spec and the MCA can make no more power. After a certain amount of time the MCA heats up and increases in efficiency, reaching close to the spec power before leveling off to a fixed output at it's max. diode current.


If you want to specify a good moddable laser, tell them to make a line using the dotted high-power diodes and larger, more efficient larger MCAs. I'd be happy to review one of these and post the findings here, but until then, I still think that these are not good mod material at all.


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## Rubycon (Feb 14, 2007)

*Re: New Leadlight APC deconstrucetd - beware of new luckyduck, bigha and jasper laser*



dr_lava said:


>



Ouch! Look how TINY that MCA is! 

Then again what should we expect for the price?


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## stevetexas (Feb 14, 2007)

*Re: New Leadlight APC deconstrucetd - beware of new luckyduck, bigha and jasper lasers.*

I think the info by Dr. Lava is informative and accurate. 

I also think that the LuckyDuck laser is a good deal for the money and performs as described.

I agree with Dr. Lava, I would gladly pay an extra $10 for a moddable laser. (You can only use so many 5 mW unmodded lasers, but we will, very likely, buy many more from LuckyDuck if we know they are moddable.)


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## noah (Feb 16, 2007)

*Re: New Leadlight APC deconstrucetd - beware of new luckyduck, bigha and jasper lasers.*

The MCA comes from yet another supplier. The spec is the same as always 1.5mm x 1.5mm, but they're tested based on efficiency/stability and not size. The manufacturer of this component could have decreased the size but quality should be the same or greater than before. 

Electronic components are ever-decreasing in size and ever-increasing in capability. It's no surprise that certain components are physically smaller than they were just a year or two ago. But the output should be the same or greater than before.

They say yield of modules with greater than 5mw potential is greater than ever. But the design is for <5mw and anything that meets that standard is shipped. Therein lies the risk of modding - some modules have greater potential than others and it's kind of a luck of the draw scenario. That someone is unable to modify a laser to his liking is not indicitive of a product of decreasing quality. It's more likely that you were simply unlucky this time in the potential of the modules which you were shipped - and lucky in your previous attempts.

Modules are factory tuned to meet the <5mw spec regardless of their operating current. Some may be at the high end of 250mA while others are under 150mA. If modules were set within the max operating current rather than max legal power, power yield would look something like this (this should tell you about the potential for modifying):

5mw neighborhood: 63%
<10mW: 10%
<20mW: 24%
<30mW: 3%


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## Corona (Mar 15, 2007)

*Re: New Leadlight APC deconstrucetd - beware of new luckyduck, bigha and jasper laser*

The area of the MCA is directly related to power capability. Period. The conversion efficiency losses from the IR energy through the MCA has to go somewhere, this energy is dissipated as heat in the MCA and the less area, the higher the energy density in the MCA crystals.

This is simple physics and no amount of clever marketing talk can repeal the laws of thermodynamics. 

The surface area difference between a 1.7mm² and 1.2mm² MCA is more than it might appear - a 1.2mm² part is only 50% of the area of a 1.7mm² part. Again, simple mathematics.

Higher MCA temperature will lead to lowered efficiency at higher output powers and reduced lifetime of the laser - no matter what the output power is.

And - what IS the spot size of the IR energy on the MCA aperture? This is before any collimation... I'm not saying this is the case without inspection of the assembly, but it is POSSIBLE that not all of the IR energy even passes through the MCA. For the same reason, the alignment of a smaller MCA is more critical.

Who remembers the "old days" of CB radio when all a guy needed was a pot tweaker to bump the output power of his radio up by a few hundred percent? The FCC came down hard on the manufacturers - and the design community solution to that was detuning, cheaper parts, adding negative feedback (ALC)...etc. The option? Be put out of business and/or heavily fined for selling non-type compliant product. 

Sound familiar?

If I might be blunt, my suspicion is that the "real reason" behind the design changes is to lower cost AND to approach a condition that consistently meets the FDA/CDRH regulations for this laser class, both being goals of this industry, due to internal business forces and external pressure from customs agents etc.

It's nice to see the APC circuit redesigned to prevent current runaway though.


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## pseudonomen137 (Mar 15, 2007)

*Re: New Leadlight APC deconstrucetd - beware of new luckyduck, bigha and jasper lasers.*

Good tips for anyone looking to mod their lasers. I gotta say though in the manufacturers defense, you can't really say "beware" of them because they made it harder to illegally mess with your laser just as you can't discount a car simply on the merit that the trunk won't hold enough bodies (yeah, a little more extreme case but you get the picture). Just not a laser to recommend to someone wanting to try a pot mod.


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## dr_lava (Mar 15, 2007)

Fair enough. The post was geared toward modders, and I think the text shows that, but I changed the title to be clear.


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## luvlasers (Mar 15, 2007)

Great, a really informative post dr lava, especially with replies from Noah.

What brand or make of 5mW or less laser pointers would you recommend for modding now?


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## dr_lava (Mar 16, 2007)

Right now it looks like the best bang for the buck mod would be to get a powerful dealextreme laser and mod it by adding an IR filter


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## liveforphysics (Mar 16, 2007)

Dr. Lava- Amazingly, and appearently not even DX knows this, but it seems that the new high power newish stuff DOES have IR filters allready!!


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