# Safe Lithium A123 & Emoli 18650 sizes now used in (Elephant) Wide Body Mags



## LuxLuthor (Jan 11, 2008)

Comparison Performance review here.

You can click on these thumbnails below. Elephant body can fit 4 wide 18650, or 7 wide AA (or 14670) cells. 









Then length...from left to right below shows extender tubes that are 120mm, 60mm, 25mm (deep tailcap), 12mm (normal tailcap). Left model can easily fit 3 stacks of 7 AA (21 cells), and if deep tailcap is used on 60mm, you can also fit 3 stacks of 7.

If you bore out the deep tailcap you could fit 3 stacks of 4 x 18650, which if A123 safe high current Li-Ions are used gives some good combinations of 6s2p, 4s3p.


----------



## LED Zeppelin (Jan 11, 2008)

*Re: Elephant Battery Combinations*

Great info, thanks Lux!


----------



## LuxLuthor (Jan 13, 2008)

*Re: Elephant Battery Combinations*

Here are the Black & Decker "VPX" packs that you can get at Walmart, Home Depot, Hardware stores, Amazon for about $18. Easy to pop off top and get two 18650 size A123 safe chemistry 1100mAh high amp output cells. (_thumbnail_)


----------



## ambientmind (Jan 13, 2008)

*Re: Elephant Battery Combinations*

how do you charge these cells once you pull them out of the packs?


----------



## LuxLuthor (Jan 13, 2008)

*Re: Elephant Battery Combinations*

Well it turns out that the A123 cells are quite resilient to charging abuse, and various methods....but I have a Hyperion 1210i charger that does the A123 3.3V chemistry.

My preference would be to get Emoli which are same 3.7V as normal Li-Ion, but they are not yet easily available like these. I will update this thread when I get the Makita cells to see if they are Konion, Sony, or Emoli brand cells. However, I believe all of them are using the same Nickel-Manganese cathode safe chemistry, which is different from the "Nano Iron-Phosphate" cathode used by Valence's Saphion & A123 brands, which is also safe but has a lower nominal voltage and capacity.


----------



## LuxLuthor (Jan 13, 2008)

*Re: Elephant Battery Combinations*

I ordered this pack which has 10 of the 18650 Emoli cells in 2p5s, so that works out to only $6.40/cell. I'll take some photos.


----------



## modamag (Jan 14, 2008)

*Re: Elephant Battery Combinations*

Interesting stuff Lux.

I didn't know those Makita had Emoli cells in them. Are the Emoli the same as any typical Li-Ion chemistry? The performance is very similar from my limited experience with modding my Makita. I found that their voltage drop under load is very similar.

I recently bought couple Dewalt 36V packs for stripping and found those cell to be able to dump their current w/o much of a voltage drop.

I'm now a little concern skimming thru rcgroup 1000+ post and chargin it on my old trusty Triton. What's your charging solution?

Just a note: my Elephant did not require any boring to the body nor the tailcap yet 4x 18650 still fits fine. :shrug:


----------



## Raoul_Duke (Jan 14, 2008)

*Re: Elephant Battery Combinations*

The PDf for emoli cells is different from the one I found.

These cells have 2400mAh, verses the emoli I found with 1400mah.

The max discharge of these cells is 4A. the Emoli Pdf I read shows a graph of 20A dicharge.

I will send you th PDF.


----------



## LuxLuthor (Jan 14, 2008)

*Re: Elephant Battery Combinations*

Actually, the PDF I linked is yet another version of Emoli 2400mAh with a lower discharge rate. The ones in the Makita drill pack are like the Sony "V" model shown here, towards the bottom. Their "VT" model is like the larger 26mm x 65mm Emoli size.

I got confirmation from the guys in this post at RC Groups who have used them...and also it makes sense that Makita has both a 1500mAh 18V pack, and this 3000mAh 18V pack I ordered from Amazon. Because these are 3.6V nominal, 5 of them is the 18V....so the larger pack is just 2p5s. They can be pushed to 12-14A output.

Modamag, yeah the great thing about these is both the higher voltage & mAh (vs. A123), and being able to charge them just like a typical Li-Ion (or LiPo) that we have already been using. These will be unprotected, once removed from the pack, but like the A123, they can be abused on fast charging, and are not in the same category as Lithium Cobalt (i.e. AW's cells) which need to be balanced.


----------



## karlthev (Jan 14, 2008)

*Re: Elephant Battery Combinations*

Thanks Lux, some great info here!!


Karl


----------



## MorpheusT1 (Jan 14, 2008)

*Re: Elephant Battery Combinations*

Great Thread 


Now who will check how many layers of 18650 Li-ions will fit with 4 in each layer using the diffrent extensions.

60mm
82mm
120mm




Im guessing the combos and utilities for this light would increase a lot if Lux made Li-ion or emoli Packs for this beast.
Or could describe what will fit and what will not.


----------



## LuxLuthor (Jan 14, 2008)

*Re: Elephant Battery Combinations*

Regarding 18650 cells, after measuring and inserting:
*Standard elephant fits 4s1p (normal tailcap)*
*With 60mm extension 4s2p (with bored tailcap* either normal or extended on left image)*
*With 82mm extension 4s2p (with normal tailcap extrapolated)*
*With 120mm extension 4s3p (bored tailcap*** either normal or extended on left image)*
*Note: Normal tailcap actual length including threads is 23.5mm; & Extended is 42.7mm, although when both are screwed in, they are 12mm & 25mm beyond body, respectively)*

I have 3 different tailcaps as shown in _*thumbnail *_images below. The 2p 60mm & 3p 120mm end up with cells protruding 3-5mm into body threads, so wall of tailcap needs to be bored out as shown in examples, so batteries will fit into it. 

Images show the two tailcaps that already have a wider I.D. "lip" with batteries fitting in that 44.4mm lip. Also with my shrink over AW's shrink it is a tight fit into body (removing his silver label helps), and a couple minutes of very slight reaming of I.D. using KD Brake hone gives a nicer fit with my shrink.



 

 

 



_* 
 Note: These are rough dimensions with my Deluxo Harbor Freight Digital Caliper *(I am aware that 44.4mm inside threads + 1.5mm thread wall thickness does not equal 47mm of outside thread measurement oo: )_


----------



## MorpheusT1 (Jan 14, 2008)

*Re: Elephant Battery Combinations*

Sweet :twothumbs


Thanks for taking the time Lux.
It is greatly apriciated.


My project will need 14-16V so definatively 4 cells in series is a go,but will it be possible to make 3 separate packs in series that will connect to eachother in Paralell.
Or would you have to wire them all together to achieve this?

Im not so steady with wiring paralell/series And solutions thereafter 


Im probably going with the 2 layers inside the 60mm extension but it would be great to be able to put an extra stack in there for extra long runtimes.

What batteries would give most runtime in such a setup?
AW Li-ions are 2200mAh
A123 18650`s are 1100mAh but can withstand more draw without sagging the voltage...do i have this correct?

What do you think?
:thinking:
Regards,
Benny


----------



## LuxLuthor (Jan 14, 2008)

*Re: Elephant Battery Combinations*

Well, personally....I find the best balance of all factors with the Emoli which I will know about when I get my Makita 10 cell pack from Amazon, and my trusty tamperproof #10 Torx wrench to remove their tamperproof screws. 

My reasons are based upon:
1500 (or 1600mAh) higher capacity than 1100mAh A123 (although, admittedly not as high as AW's Li-Ions)
Higher 3.6V (charged to 4.1V) with Emoli vs. 3 V (charged to 3.3V) with A123
$6.50 per cell price from *NEW *Makita drill pack. (A123 18650 from B&D VPX are $10 & AW's are $12--but have PTC & reputation extra value)
Proven 10-12Amp output as used for over a year by RC guys (see post above for link). vs. higher Amp output if needed for A123, but 5A limited output for AW's cell.
Charge with ordinary Li-Ion/LiPo 3.7V charger (vs. A123 ideally should have a 3.3V special charging protocol)
Ability to do FAST (15 min) charge (more needed by the RC guys)
Wide tolerance of overcharge (but *not *over-discharge  without PTC).
No explosive/flames risk with this Nickel/Manganese in cathode.
Not critical to balance charge (although the packs I made for my own Li-Ions had balance taps going to JST 5 pin connector which fits under tailcap)
As far as 2p, you really need to have cells setup like this, but imagine the middle of diagram is folded over into a quad pack.


*(-)====(+)-(-)====(+)-(-)====(+)-(-)====(+)
.|.............|.....|.............|.....|..............|.....|...............|
(-)====(+)-(-)====(+)-(-)====(+)-(-)====(+)
.........................................^
**......................................./...\*
*......................................*|....|
*................................Folded Back here

**(+)-(-) shows connection between 2p1s to next 2p1s
**| shows contact strips making 2p1s
**.................................... My attempt to make nearly invisible spacing so diagram looks pretty.*


----------



## MorpheusT1 (Jan 14, 2008)

*Re: Elephant Battery Combinations*

Im sorry i asked 


My head is spinning right now,there is a reason there is a market for selling battery packs 


Thank you so much for trying to reach me,but im afraid i am a lost cause.
Atleast someone else will benefit from the nice drawing you made,which probably took pretty much time :bow:





* This is the part i think i got:*

Emoli is probably best and cheapest Safest too. Comes in 18650 Size and are 4.1V fully charged.

Over discharging them =Draining to much below a certain Voltage is a no no and will damage battery pack? When do i know when to stop ?

It is possible to make a 2P pack consisting of two separate packs in series.
16.4V w 3200mA.?
And possibly 16.4V w 4800mA by adding another separate unit of batteries.

All which will fit either with the 60mm extension or by adding the 120mm extension to get use of all the Battery holders...

:candle:





Benny


----------



## matrixshaman (Jan 15, 2008)

*Re: Elephant Battery Combinations*

LuxLuthor - I posted this on another thread here where you had mentioned these but not sure if you saw my reply to your post so I want to ask where you found the info that Makita has Emoli's in them as I came across this info that indicates it's Milwaukee that has Emoli's not Makita - quote off one of those RCgroups: "Makita uses the Konion type cells in a 5S2P configuration supposedly only good for about 7C discharge" as opposed to the roughly 15C discharge you can supposedly get from Emoli's. I believe it is the Milwaukee packs that use real Emoli and I was seeing 3000mah rates being stated on them but less cells in a pack I think. I also saw these Li-Fe-PO4 Rechargeable: 18650 Cylindrical Cell 3.2V 1200 mAh, 15C (18A) Drain Rate at batteryspace.com for $6.95 ea. Seems these are close to the VPX A123's but not quite the same as I think the A123's can do up to 30C continuous and 52C burst


----------



## LuxLuthor (Jan 15, 2008)

*Re: Elephant Battery Combinations*

matrixshaman, first there is still a fair amount of confusion about new "safe" Lithium Ion batteries. I can see more confusion when looking at this 2005 Emoli pdf which is still using Cobalt, and which has the higher 3.75V/2400mAh nominal that is typical of Lithium Cobalt cathode chemsitry. It has the part number *ICR18650*, where the "C" is cobalt. *THIS IS NOT CONSIDERED THE NEW SAFE LITHIUM ION CHEMISTRY.*

The new Nickel-Manganese cathode has part number *IMR18650* where "M" is for Manganese. So the pdf link above is the older emoli brand, and is not using the new safe Nickel-Manganese cathode component. I should not have posted that link early in this thread, and just removed it.

Let me try to clarify what I know so far regarding the two broad categories of* safe 18650 size Lithium Ion cells*.1) *Emoli brand & Sony "V"* type cells use Nickel/Manganese cathodes have 3.6V nominal, and 1500 to 1600mAh capacity. 

2) *Valence's brand name "Saphion" & A123-Systems* type cells use "Nano-Iron-Phosphate" in cathode have 3.0V nominal, and 1100mAh capacity. This link compares the three Cobalt, Iron Phosphate, & Manganese.​I believe Makita uses the Sony "V" 18650 size cells, which are just like the Emoli safe Ni-Mn cathode material. It appears that the Konion & BionX are also using the Sony "V" (or the larger 26mm x 70mm "VT" model) but are also the same as the safe Emoli cells (note YouTube video).

The Milwaukee drill packs do indeed use Emoli Ni-Mn cells, but are the larger 26mm x 70mm size. Most of the confusion is coming from people confusing different brands of the two main safe chemistry cathode types, and/or confusing different sizes. I do not know if anyone has OBJECTIVELY tested the various MAXIMUM output Amp rates of different brands of Nickel-Manganese Emoli, Sony, Konion, BionX. It is possible that Emoli may output more Amps than Sony, Konion, BionX. 

There is no question that the Nano-Iron-Phosphate brands output more Amps than Nickel-Manganese....but at the cost of lower capacity and voltage nominal ratings.


----------



## matrixshaman (Jan 15, 2008)

*Re: Elephant Battery Combinations*

Thanks for that info Lux - there is a lot to keep up on with all the battery technology and it's growing every day. I think we have many good things to look forward to for flashlight power thanks to the driving forces of laptops and electric vehicles.


----------



## LuxLuthor (Jan 16, 2008)

*Re: Elephant Battery Combinations*

Here is the accurate pdf IMR-18650E model using the Manganese from Emoli.

This thread at RC Groups is trying to match up tool battery packs with cell types.

This thread indicates that Ryobi One is using actual Emoli IMR18650E cells, but I don't belive that is correct.


----------



## DM51 (Jan 16, 2008)

*Re: Elephant Battery Combinations*



LuxLuthor said:


> Regarding 18650 cells, after measuring and inserting:
> 
> *Standard elephant fits 4s1p (normal tailcap)*
> ... it is a tight fit into body ... reaming using KD Brake hone gives a nicer fit... _oo: )_


Lol sorry Lux, but I just had to ask… where exactly do you insert it?


Standard elephant:









Normal tailcap... tight fit into body



… reaming using KD Brake hone gives a nicer fit:








After measuring and inserting:







LOL

[/hijack]


----------



## MorpheusT1 (Jan 16, 2008)

*Re: Elephant Battery Combinations*




Thats probably whats gonna happen if i start experimenting with batteries...
Only this time i will do the running...

I`ll leave the battery pack building to Lux.



:candle:


----------



## monkeyboy (Jan 16, 2008)

*Re: Elephant Battery Combinations*

Has anyone made a 4 wide 18650 battery holder for the elephant? Most of the elephants I've seen on CPF seem to use 3 wide 18650. Not the best use of the space IMO.


----------



## MorpheusT1 (Jan 16, 2008)

*Re: Elephant Battery Combinations*

No holders so far...
I think its to tight a fit.

I think Lux has made packs by Shrinkwrapping for a tight fit.

You would ofcource need a charger that can work with 4 cells in series or Paralell then.


Benny


----------



## LuxLuthor (Jan 17, 2008)

*Re: Elephant Battery Combinations*

OK here is my high res pix of the disected Makita Battery pack. I'm charging it at 2A as a LiPo cell of 1500mAh....and it has taken 1100mAh so far with no heat. These are looking like the Sony "V" designation of Nickel-Manganese type 18650 cell. They arrived with voltage of 3.63V, and have two rows of numbers on their green wrapper, with no other markings: _(I'm sure Makita loves seeing their packs abused like this !!!) They may be Konion, but I can't figure out the difference between Sony's "V" and Konion. There is a bunch of posts here that didn't translate well on Babelfish.
_*SE US18650V*
*T V1112PE16R*​

 

 






 

 

 

 




Next up a new Ridgid 18V 3Ah pack that reportedly has actual Emoli IMR-18650-E cells.


Edit: Apparently Sony/Konion makes both a "V" 1600mAh 18650, as well as a "VT" 1100mAh 18650. 

Also see these RC Groups threads:http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=413484&highlight=US18650VT
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3900092#post3900092
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?p=8730585#post8730585​I just charged one of these green "V" cells shown above up to 4.12V (not as far as I could have charged it), then discharged in Hyperion 1210i at 2.5A down to 3.0V (I didn't push discharging it down to 2.5V), and it gave 1482mA, so this confirms also that it is the 1600mAh type.

.


----------



## LuxLuthor (Jan 18, 2008)

*Re: Elephant Battery Combinations*

Good news. The Ridgid battery pack has 10 x Emoli brand 18650 cells. Click on thumbnails

These have 3.83 Volts/cell charge out of the pack.


----------



## chanamasala (Jan 18, 2008)

*Re: Elephant Battery Combinations*

Removed eBay link to wrong model.



It _looks_ like it.


----------



## LuxLuthor (Jan 18, 2008)

*Re: Elephant Battery Combinations*

It does not match any of the numbers on my NEW pack. I'm always suspicious when they don't show more pictures of something they claim is new, not in sealed package like mine. No way to know the condition of this item.


----------



## Nebula (Jan 18, 2008)

*Re: Elephant Battery Combinations*

Excellent work, Lux. Have you charged the Rigid Emoli batteries? Results? 

Are you able to use your modded Voltcraft cradle with these new batteries? 

I certainly will want one of your new packs when you get ready to start making a few for sale. 

BTW - I just picked up the new Hyperion 0610i 10A 250W charger, and the even newer (had to order it from Japan) Hyperion EOS 0606i 6S 6A max charger with integrated LBA balancer for LiPoly(3.7v) [NO 3.6 cells], LiFePO4/A123(3.3v), Nicd, NiMH, and Lead-Acid charge modes. Like the 0610i this one comes with a dataport for PC software. Unlike the 0610i, this one will do Ni discharge cycles. 

KK


----------



## LuxLuthor (Jan 19, 2008)

*Re: Elephant Battery Combinations*



Nebula said:


> Excellent work, Lux. Have you charged the Rigid Emoli batteries? Results?


Yes! I just did a quick test using 1500mAh capacity, and charging at 3A 1s in my Hyperion 1210i, it put about 980mA into it and terminated at 4.21V It only went up to 2.85A charging rate after about 3 mins, before dropping a bit since it was at 4.2V, and its algorhythm backs off the voltage, thinking it is Lithium cobalt. It goes plenty fast though.

When I get time, I'll run them through my CBA-II



Nebula said:


> Are you able to use your modded Voltcraft cradle with these new batteries?


 
Yes. It will be easier when I make a pack with them.



Nebula said:


> I certainly will want one of your new packs when you get ready to start making a few for sale.
> 
> BTW - I just picked up the new Hyperion 0610i 10A 250W charger, and the even newer (had to order it from Japan) Hyperion EOS 0606i 6S 6A max charger with integrated LBA balancer for LiPoly(3.7v) [NO 3.6 cells], LiFePO4/A123(3.3v), Nicd, NiMH, and Lead-Acid charge modes. Like the 0610i this one comes with a dataport for PC software. Unlike the 0610i, this one will do Ni discharge cycles.
> 
> KK



Nice !!!


----------



## tanasit (Jan 19, 2008)

*Re: Elephant Battery Combinations*

Thanks LuxLuthor for the superp informative details and great pictures all along the way.:twothumbs:twothumbs:twothumbs:twothumbs


----------



## chanamasala (Jan 19, 2008)

*Re: Elephant Battery Combinations*

Thought this was interesting:

http://libattery.ustc.edu.cn/english/introduction 3.htm

I think I'll go with the Emoli myself.


----------



## stevil86 (Jan 20, 2008)

*Re: Elephant Battery Combinations*

whats in dewalt 18v XRP model battery?? i have 5 =) that are all pretty much new


----------



## LuxLuthor (Jan 20, 2008)

*Re: Elephant Battery Combinations*

I just took these pictures after cleaning, putting my new tabs on them, and putting some temporary protective black tape if I wanted to ship a single cell(s).

http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h75/pike444/emoli/emoli1.jpg
http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h75/pike444/emoli/emoli3.jpg
http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h75/pike444/emoli/emoli4.jpg
http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h75/pike444/emoli/emoli5.jpg
http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h75/pike444/emoli/emoli6.jpg
http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h75/pike444/emoli/emoli7.jpg

None of the packs I have seen have soldered to the battery, so having welded tabs like this appears to be a better setup. Also these insulating stickers are handy:

http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h75/pike444/emoli/emoli2.jpg


----------



## LuxLuthor (Jan 20, 2008)

*Re: Elephant Battery Combinations*



stevil86 said:


> whats in dewalt 18v XRP model battery?? i have 5 =) that are all pretty much new



Not sure about that Dewalt model, but some Dewalt packs use A123 cells....so they might be 10 x A123 18650 cells.


----------



## cat (Jan 21, 2008)

*Re: Elephant Battery Combinations*

Yes, thank you, LuxLuthor, for sharing the results of the work with us, with so many good photos. 


That green shrinkwrap on the Makita cells looks like a shrinkwrap type of Kapton polyamide. Nice.


----------



## chanamasala (Jan 23, 2008)

*Re: Elephant Battery Combinations*

I got the Rigid pack.

I got it out of the pack and the blue stuff off a good bit. But I'm too much of a wimp to start cutting tabs and disassembling it further.

Does any knowledgeable adult in the continental US want to do it and they can keep 4 of the Emoli cells? I ship one way you ship the 6 clean cells(tabs removed) back to me. Only someone who accepts the risk of a 10 cell short and knows what they are doing please.


----------



## LuxLuthor (Jan 23, 2008)

*Re: Elephant Battery Combinations*



chanamasala said:


> I got the Rigid pack.
> 
> I got it out of the pack and the blue stuff off a good bit. But I'm too much of a wimp to start cutting tabs and disassembling it further.
> 
> Does any knowledgeable adult in the continental US want to do it and they can keep 4 of the Emoli cells? I ship one way you ship the 6 clean cells(tabs removed) back to me. Only someone who accepts the risk of a 10 cell short and knows what they are doing please.



I replied to your PM that I would do it for you. Did you get that PM? I resent it just now.


----------



## cmacclel (Jan 25, 2008)

*Re: Elephant Battery Combinations*



LuxLuthor said:


> Not sure about that Dewalt model, but some Dewalt packs use A123 cells....so they might be 10 x A123 18650 cells.



18v XRP = Non lithium right?

Mac


----------



## LuxLuthor (Jan 25, 2008)

*Re: Elephant Battery Combinations*



cmacclel said:


> 18v XRP = Non lithium right?
> 
> Mac



I have not read about what type of batteries are in that model. A quick link to this Amazon description implies that they are NiCad...unless there is a new A123 Lithium version using same product name (which I doubt).


----------



## chanamasala (Jan 25, 2008)

*Re: Elephant Battery Combinations*

I think Dewalt only uses A123s in the ones marked Nano:

http://www.dewalt.com/us/products/attachment_detail.asp?productID=14905
http://www.dewalt.com/us/products/attachment_detail.asp?productID=16958
http://www.dewalt.com/us/products/attachment_detail.asp?productID=17720

36v uses 26mm variety:

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=587606


----------



## LuxLuthor (Jan 26, 2008)

*Re: Elephant Battery Combinations*



chanamasala said:


> I think Dewalt only uses A123s in the ones marked Nano:
> 
> http://www.dewalt.com/us/products/attachment_detail.asp?productID=14905
> http://www.dewalt.com/us/products/attachment_detail.asp?productID=16958
> ...



So they have both the NiCad & new A123 Nano Lithium-Iron-Phosphate packs marked as "XRP" model? If so, then make sure you verify that you are getting the right sub-type.


----------



## LuxLuthor (Jan 28, 2008)

I changed the topic title to better reflect what information is in this thread. I also edited the bottom of my post #24 in this thread, as it does appear that there are both Sony/Konion "V" 1600mAh and "VT" 1100mAh versions, which I gave links about.


----------



## LuxLuthor (Feb 17, 2008)

These Emoli 18650 cells are holding up well.


----------



## Tronic (Feb 18, 2008)

LuxLuthor,

I can confirm that the green Cell from your Post #24 are Sony/Konion cells.
These cells are manufactured from Sony under the marketing name Konion.

These cells use the Manganese chemistry and are available in 2 Versions: 
18650V = 1600mAh standard cell
18650VT = 1100mAh high current cell

In Europe they are also known as BMZ18650V or BMZ18650VT.
(BMZ is Europe’s leading system supplier for rechargeable battery packs.)

They are also available in as 14500V with 680mAh.

I can Post a Datasheet of these cells if you are interested.

I have purchased a few loose cells from a BMZ Distributor and I am very happy with these cells.

-Daniel


----------



## adamlau (Feb 18, 2008)

I can confirm the same as I disassembled a 194205-3 a few weeks back. Makita parent is Japanese, likely to use Japanese branded cells (regardless of manufacture/assembly location). Ryobi/Ridgid is Chinese, likely to use cells with Chinese affiliations (E-One). Not a hard and fast rule, merely an observation.



chanamasala said:


> But I'm too much of a wimp to start cutting tabs and disassembling it further.


Use insulated diagonal pliers :thumbsup:


----------



## LuxLuthor (Mar 4, 2008)

Bumped for Northern Lights.


----------



## Griz (Mar 19, 2008)

LuxLuther, 

Have you found a source for the Sony 26650VT battery listed here: http://www.sony.net/SonyInfo/News/Press_Archive/200412/04-060E/

I can't find any more information about them, and not much talk about them on the RC forums.

How about a source for the IMR-26650C? or IMR-26700A: http://www.e-one.com.tw/product/DM_IMR26700A.pdf

Griz


----------



## Griz (Mar 19, 2008)

Well, I found the answer to the IMR26670. I'm sure this was well known to some people.







Milwaukee cordless V28 pack.


----------



## LuxLuthor (Mar 19, 2008)

Griz, come on man....see the thread title? This topic is about the newer *18650 *size cells. The 26mm sizes have been around for ages, and tons of posts about them all over the place. Probably a hundred pages come up in a google search for them.


----------



## Griz (Mar 19, 2008)

LuxLuther, please accept my apology.


----------



## LuxLuthor (Mar 24, 2008)

Thanks Griz. 

I just checked all the places, and the *Ridgid *18Volt 3.0Ah Emoli batteries (Part numbers #R84008 or #AC46182) are still in very short supply. Backordered for quite a while at Home Depot. I suspect there is some production/demand shortage.

People may need to settle for Konion/Sony brand cells (make sure to get the 1600mAh *18650V*)


----------



## Bones (Mar 25, 2008)

LuxLuthor said:


> Thanks Griz.
> 
> I just checked all the places, and the *Ridgid *18Volt 3.0Ah Emoli batteries (Part numbers #R84008 or #AC46182) are still in very short supply. Backordered for quite a while at Home Depot. I suspect there is some production/demand shortage.
> 
> People may need to settle for Konion/Sony brand cells (make sure to get the 1600mAh *18650V*)



Hopefully, this hasn't been answered elsewhere.

I am finding two 18Volt Ridgid lithium batteries, the 3.0Ah spoken of here, and a smaller size rated at 1.5Ah, which may bear part number R840084.

Has anyone dismantled the smaller sized battery and determined what's inside?


----------



## LuxLuthor (Mar 26, 2008)

Bones said:


> Hopefully, this hasn't been answered elsewhere.
> 
> I am finding two 18Volt Ridgid lithium batteries, the 3.0Ah spoken of here, and a smaller size rated at 1.5Ah, which may bear part number R840084.
> 
> Has anyone dismantled the smaller sized battery and determined what's inside?



Smaller pack is 5 cells x 3.6V = 18V (each cell is 1500mAh)
Larger pack has 10 cells in 5s2p which keeps same 18V, but doubles the capacity to 3,000mAh


----------



## LiteFan (Mar 28, 2008)

Good info as usual Thanks Lux


----------



## Bones (Mar 29, 2008)

LuxLuthor said:


> Smaller pack is 5 cells x 3.6V = 18V (each cell is 1500mAh)
> Larger pack has 10 cells in 5s2p which keeps same 18V, but doubles the capacity to 3,000mAh



Thanks, LuxLuther, I was hoping this was the case.

You're certainly correct insofar as the demand is concerned as well. The prices on eBay have taken a major jump on both sizes recently.

It's also interesting to note that very few vendors are differentiating between the sizes, so it's important to take a close look at what's on offer.


----------



## milkyspit (May 16, 2008)

Lux, what's the current supply situation as far as you've seen?

I'm specifically interested in snagging some Emoli IMR-18650E cells. Which packs contain them (item numbers would be helpful) and what IYHO is the best deal at the moment on a per-cell basis? I'm hoping to get my hands on upwards of 10 cells to play around with, and for use in some of my newer builds.

TIA for the info!  :bow:


----------



## mdocod (Jul 23, 2008)

Just thought I would throw something here worth mentioning:

The new 18V Ryobi "one+" li-ion system has 10 18650 Emoli cells contained within 

This is based on looking at pictures a friend of mine sent me of his torn open one+ pack that he got awhile back. IIRC the cells were grey with "IMR18650" on the side.


----------



## LuxLuthor (Jul 24, 2008)

mdocod said:


> Just thought I would throw something here worth mentioning:
> 
> The new 18V Ryobi "one+" li-ion system has 10 18650 Emoli cells contained within
> 
> This is based on looking at pictures a friend of mine sent me of his torn open one+ pack that he got awhile back. IIRC the cells were grey with "IMR18650" on the side.



Thanks, especially timely with the recent rash of Elephant Mods.

As you specified, you have to be careful what you get, as their old "crap Ni-Cd" cells packs are also called "one+" as in this Amazon dual pack for $80.

You must make sure it looks like this gray (& green accent) and specifies Lithium.

Here it is with charger as an "upgrade kit" for $120 at Home Despot. 

Here is the $90 pack alone, also at Home Despot. There are some good prices on EBay. I believe the correct part number for pack alone is P104


----------



## sylathnie (Jul 25, 2008)

After reading this whole post a few times I'm a wee bit confused. I would like to eventually use 12S Li batteries in my Ele II. I'm hoping to build a switch that can handle >10A draw so the batteries need to be able to take the same.
Which pack do I need to buy and take apart? :thinking:

My conclusion was the Ryobi One+ LiIon packs. Did I get it right? Do I win? 

Thanks!


----------



## Raoul_Duke (Jul 25, 2008)

sylathnie said:


> After reading this whole post a few times I'm a wee bit confused. I would like to eventually use 12S Li batteries in my Ele II. I'm hoping to build a switch that can handle >10A draw so the batteries need to be able to take the same.
> Which pack do I need to buy and take apart? :thinking:
> 
> My conclusion was the Ryobi One+ LiIon packs. Did I get it right? Do I win?
> ...



To run 12 Emoli in an Elle2 youd need more than one Ryobi One+ LiIon pack ( or a couple of loose cells), as they only contain 10 cells.

What lamp would you use for 12 series. 

I would expect the reflector to melt like thermite http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WrCWLpRc1yM with that much wattage. ( ~500W :thinking: )


----------



## sylathnie (Jul 25, 2008)

I'm just trying to confirm the chemistry of the cells themselves.
For Example:
Dewalt - A123
Makita - Sony V
Ryobi - Emoli

How I won't kill myself or render myself sterile every time I flip it on will be the topic of another thread.


----------



## LuxLuthor (Jul 26, 2008)

sylathnie said:


> I'm just trying to confirm the chemistry of the cells themselves.
> For Example:
> Dewalt - A123
> Makita - Sony V
> ...



You have to be careful with models with each brand...as sometimes NiCd have similar/same model brand as in the Ryobi I mentioned. I have images of the exact pack model and brand in this thread with cells harvested shown.


----------



## milkyspit (Jul 26, 2008)

Hi Lux, just wanted to chime in that this thread is most welcome! Kudos my friend. :thumbsup:

Yesterday I received a Ridgid AC46182 pack containing 10x 18V 1500mAh IMR-18650E cells. I was expecting only five cells for some reason (duh) so this was a nice surprise. Have finished the harvesting and am presently charging the cells. Bottoms of the cans have some very minor denting from removing the spot welds, but nothing major. I smoothed the remaining weld bumps down using a Dremel cutoff wheel worked gently perpendicular to the can surface, back and forth. At the price I paid for the pack, this turns out to have been a good purchase.


----------



## milkyspit (Jul 26, 2008)

Quick question that may have been answered before, please excuse if so... I'm wondering how the Sony V cells (?) present in the Makita 18V packs compare with the Emoli and A123Systems offerings in terms of safety. I notice the Makita charger runs through a cycle in the insanely quick time of 22 minutes... what are these cells capable of, how much of a risk do they present of adverse events? You know, the usual questions. 

Link to the cells on Amazon.com is *over here*.


----------



## LuxLuthor (Jul 27, 2008)

_*Milky, I spent some time trying to get clear, concise information between the various battery categories, and started a new thread in battery section here.

Going to the manufacturer's pages which I linked, as far as I know the information is correct in that post, even if it slightly contradicts some earlier data in this thread. This thread was a learning process about the various Lithium chemistries.
*_


----------



## LuxLuthor (Jul 29, 2008)

Confirmation of genuine Emoli cells in the Ryobi One+ Lithium pack as shown. All had 3.73V on arrival.



 v

x


----------



## DM51 (Jul 29, 2008)

Interesting pics, Lux. Is that a protection/charging circuit board, and will you be able to make use of it?


----------



## choppers (Jul 29, 2008)

LuxLuthor said:


> Confirmation of genuine Emoli cells in the Ryobi One+ Lithium pack as shown. All had 3.73V on arrival. vx


LUX, Great Pics.....I love the background!!!!!:naughty:

Question:
Could you take these above cells and put them into a FM Battery holder or would the charging not be balanced if you do that?
Thanks,


----------



## LuxLuthor (Jul 30, 2008)

DM, no plans to use that board.

Choppers, you could put them in a holder, I would check them every time to see about balancing until you are sure.


----------



## choppers (Jul 30, 2008)

Thanks LuxLuthor, is there any specific brand of charger you recommend for the Emoli 18650 Cells?


LuxLuthor said:


> DM, no plans to use that board.
> 
> Choppers, you could put them in a holder, I would check them every time to see about balancing until you are sure.


----------



## LuxLuthor (Jul 30, 2008)

No. It does fine going to 4.2V with any Li-Ion charger. Balancing is another issue.


----------



## choppers (Jul 30, 2008)

LuxLuthor said:


> No. It does fine going to 4.2V with any Li-Ion charger. Balancing is another issue.


Would this charger be a good way keep them balanced when charging?
http://www.cpfmarketplace.com/mp/showthread.php?t=176076

Also would you happen to have to have 4 Emoli 18650 cells to sell?

Thanks,


----------



## LuxLuthor (Jul 31, 2008)

Yes that would work in so far as charging them all up to maximum. Just check voltages when done so they are reasonably close. I do have some extra cells. PM sent.


----------



## sylathnie (Aug 1, 2008)

Don't throw out those Ryobi boards yet. Take a look at the two MOSFETS attached to the heat sink on the end of the board. I have a hunch those might be useful. 
(I'm still researching and learning but I think they may be what I need to switch 8 cells of Emoli goodness on and off)


----------



## sylathnie (Aug 1, 2008)

Be careful pulling off those welds. I was attempting to reduce the stress on the cells and was "rolling" the leads off. The little pointy metal is just sharp enough to pierce the insulation on the positive end of the cell. 
http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x79/sylathnie/IMG_3713.jpg
Cell voltage dropped .3 from just that little spark. I don't think I hurt it but it has been "marked" for extensive testing.


----------



## LuxLuthor (Aug 2, 2008)

Yeah, you have to be careful removing tabs from any of these tool packs. LOL! I bet you jumped when that happened....and I would check voltage when charged. It should be OK. You have to dremel sand the weld marks so there is flush contact. Isn't that blue foam a hassle to remove?


----------



## sylathnie (Aug 3, 2008)

I've been using Goo-gone and alot of elbow grease. The goo-gone seems to be non-conductive but I'm making sure I wipe down every cell with slightly soapy water afterwards. I don't want some strange chemical reaction happening in the middle of my pack later. I probably only have maybe 10 of my cells done so far. It just takes alot of time. My charger and power supply won't be here until next week so I have a bit before I can use the cells.

Did you take a look at the MOSFETs on the board from the battery pack? I don't have my power supply yet for testing but after a little research I think I may be able to use those for a high current switch.


----------



## LuxLuthor (Aug 3, 2008)

Alas, I had thrown the first one away before I read your post, but I have a bunch more packs--both Ridgid and Ryobi, as well as VPX with 2 x A123.


----------



## sylathnie (Aug 3, 2008)

It was an IRF2804 MOSFET. I just finished building a MOSFET switch out of it. I'm hoping as soon as my charger comes in I will be able to drive a 64657 off of it.
That Ryobi pack was a good deal!


----------



## shakeylegs (Aug 9, 2008)

Ran across this link which provides a fairly thorough and concise rundown of many cordless power tool battery pack innards. http://forum.drc.su/cordless-power-tool-battery-capacity-rating-vt4184.html

Here's a small snippet:

"Cells used in batteries:

Milwaukee V18 and V28 series use MoliEnergy E1 MoliCel IMR26700A cell
DeWalt NANO 18/28/36V - A123 Systems LiFePO4 M1 cell
Makita LXT uses Konion/Sony 18650 sized 1.5 Ah manganese cells
Metabo Lipower - unknown, same as Craftsman's
Ridgid XLI - Emoli 3Ah manganese cells, same as Milwaukee v18/v28
Ridgid 18v - 18650 version Emoli
Sears Craftsman - unknown, same as Metabo's
Hitachi Li-Ion HXP - unknown
Bosch Litheon - Konion for 36v and LG* for 10.8V (*unconfirmed, most likely Konion)"


----------



## sylathnie (Aug 10, 2008)

Check your local Lowes. Mine had 2 VPX packs on clearance. $9 dollars each!


----------



## LuxLuthor (Aug 21, 2008)

Update on the Ryobi P104 One Plus packs. The 2nd and 3rd P104 packs I got from EBay seller has red Sanyo UR18650-SA cells which are represented as 1300mAh similar to Sony Konion cells. I listed more details and backup links in my post #7 at RC Groups Forum thread here.

I'm testing its mAh capacity now. Still need to run all these various brands through my CBA-II at different rates.


----------



## LuxLuthor (Aug 23, 2008)

For those following this thread, I just did a performance shootout of these safe chemistry lithium cells here.


----------



## therisensun (Aug 29, 2008)

It looks like i found a source for new A123 Systems 18650 1100 mAh and 26650 2300 mAh cells without tabs.

The home page is: http://www.aircraft-world.com/default.asp
The A123 link is a short distance down this page.

The single cell sale page is: http://www.aircraft-world.com/shopdisplayproducts.asp?id=32&cat=battery+%2D+SINGLE+CELLS
This page includes shrink wrap and solder tabs.

Pack assembly instructions are linked here: http://media.hyperion.hk/dn/a123/packassy/A123packassy.pdf
Including a link to step by step assembly video.

Saves from having to purchase and disassemble existing power tool packs.


----------



## mdocod (Aug 30, 2008)

That's strange, I wonder why the switch?!?

Possibly a limited availability issue with the Emoli cells?

This has me worried, as I was about to make an attempt on a Ryobi pack myself for more cells 

going to have a look at your shootout now...

Eric





LuxLuthor said:


> Update on the Ryobi P104 One Plus packs. The 2nd and 3rd P104 packs I got from EBay seller has red Sanyo UR18650-SA cells which are represented as 1300mAh similar to Sony Konion cells. I listed more details and backup links in my post #7 at RC Groups Forum thread here.
> 
> I'm testing its mAh capacity now. Still need to run all these various brands through my CBA-II at different rates.


----------



## LuxLuthor (Sep 1, 2008)

I think they switched because they finally realized Emoli is a Canadian company. (Joke) 

Here is another addition to the list which I read about in various product listings. Sony's VT which has less mAh and slighly lower voltage, but stays a bit cooler under load. I added these to the run tests in battery section thread. 

Thumbnail of pack for identification. I got this for $73 with free shipping from Amazon.


----------



## Tronic (Sep 2, 2008)

LuxLuthor said:


> I got this for $73 with free shipping from Amazon.


Wow, that is really cheap! The individual Sony 18650V cells I got over 1 Year ago was €8.50 each! (€8.50 are $12.35)


----------



## Chodes (Sep 8, 2008)

I've just pulled apart a Makita BL1830 pack - 10 x Sony V cells.
All 10 cells measured 3.65v open circuit. Cost $115 delivered , expensive compared to the Amazon prices I have seen , but the Aussie dollar has just crashed so $70US becomes $90 AUS , plus shipping... I've done OK I think for $11.50 per cell.

The case makes a good 18650 cell carrier too , funny that


----------



## Mettee (Sep 10, 2008)

I found some milwaukee li-on packs at lows on sale for $68. They are 18V. What do you think of these?


----------



## LuxLuthor (Sep 11, 2008)

Depends on condition, voltage of cells on arrival. Also depends on which pack you are using.


----------



## geek4christ (Sep 24, 2008)

*Re: Elephant Battery Combinations*



LuxLuthor said:


> Here are the Black & Decker "VPX" packs that you can get at Walmart, Home Depot, Hardware stores, Amazon for about $18. Easy to pop off top and get two 18650 size A123 safe chemistry 1100mAh high amp output cells. (_thumbnail_)



These VPX packs and tools are going on clearance all over the place. I think the battery pack is currently $11 at my local Wal-Mart. Curious about this, I did some searching and found that amazon.com now lists the following in the description of every item in the VPX line:



> *Discontinued by manufacturer:* Yes


I emailed Black&Decker about the future of the VPX line and got this response:



> Response (Lori Strausbaugh) 09/24/2008 01:52 PM
> Hello Forrest and thanks for using Black & Decker's on-line support.
> Yes. The VPX line of cordless power tools is being phased out because of lack of sales.
> Thank you for allowing us the opportunity to serve you. If your question remains unresolved or if you require additional information please update this incident.
> ...


So it looks like our mega-affordable source for 18650-sized A123 cells will be dwindling to nothing in the near future.


----------



## rolltide (Oct 15, 2008)

LuxLuthor said:


> I think they switched because they finally realized Emoli is a Canadian company. (Joke)
> 
> Here is another addition to the list which I read about in various product listings. Sony's VT which has less mAh and slighly lower voltage, but stays a bit cooler under load. I added these to the run tests in battery section thread.
> 
> Thumbnail of pack for identification. I got this for $73 with free shipping from Amazon.


 
I was able to pick up two of these battery packs on Ebay. I have a couple questions.

1. The voltage on each cell is a very consistent 3.4V. Is that the right voltage for these cells fresh out of a new pack?

2. Can I charge these cells with my regular lith-ion 18650 charger?
From what I have read here, this is OK, but I just want to make sure before I throw them on a charger and mess them up. 

Thanks for any info.

I understand these Sony VT's are only 1100mAH cells, but I can get these at half the price of the packs that have the Sony V's (1500mAH), so I figure for the same money I get 2 1100mA batteries instead of 1 1500mAH battery so I can charge the one while I use the other. 700mAH's more and better versatility at the same price sounded like a good deal to me.

Also, many thanks to Lux for putting together all this great information and keeping us updated.


----------



## DM51 (Oct 15, 2008)

AW has now released his IMR 16340 cells.


----------



## rolltide (Oct 16, 2008)

DM51 said:


> AW has now released his IMR 16340 cells.


 
I am waiting for the 18650 variety.


----------

