# Got some Surefire DEF's



## maverick (Aug 3, 2006)

I bought 2 of these today. Looks like the anticipated K2's right? But actually they are the "DEF 8K" models which I think were made for the military or something. Both of them come with the main white LED and an outer ring of 2 LED colors. I bought one each of the A and B version, the only difference being the color of the outer LEDs. The A version has RED and BLUE whereas the B version has RED and GREEN. The dealer told me that it was part of a limited batch they received and it has the PK logo laser engraved onto the side. The colors are selected by the ring just behind the head (just like the U2). The tailcap is a 2 stage clickie which adjusts the 2 stage brightness of the main white led. I also saw a "DEF 5K" version, the difference is the brightness of the main led and the inability to turn on the outer leds independantly of the main led. The very interesting thing is that there is no serial number on the main body like there is on all other surefires I know of.


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## DUQ (Aug 3, 2006)

Very nice. So those are a special run of rebadged Kroma's?


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## RadarGreg (Aug 3, 2006)

Not Kromas, but rather something like the DARPA DEF3A lights.

Maverick, about what did you pay for each, if you don't mind me asking? Excellent find.


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## setherd (Aug 3, 2006)

pics?


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## marcspar (Aug 3, 2006)

Are those the the "pk specials" with a LuxV and 5mm outer leds?

Marc


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## Long John (Aug 3, 2006)

Hello maverick

Congratulations to your new lights.

What's the diameter of the head? It looks like a good host for a multiple Lux-mod.

Best regards

_____
Tom


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## RemingtonBPD (Aug 3, 2006)

Very cool...I had heard a rumor of this light, but I guess it was not one. Did you get these through a dealer? Prices? Availability?


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## xpitxbullx (Aug 3, 2006)

Wonder if Size 15's has these in his extensive collection?

Jeff


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## maverick (Aug 3, 2006)

I got them for about $275 each. He told me that it was the last 2 he had left, and that the rest were the 5K's. According to him, Surefire allocated 100 units to SE asia and he got 20 of them which he received just this Monday. They must have gone like hot cakes since he sold them all in 4 days.


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## pkennethv (Aug 3, 2006)

whoa, looks like a Kroma with a "Turbohead"


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## Manzerick (Aug 3, 2006)

that looks like one serious torch!


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## Size15's (Aug 3, 2006)

xpitxbullx said:


> Wonder if Size 15's has these in his extensive collection?
> 
> Jeff



I guess normally the more exciting it is the less I'm able to talk about it.

Al


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## marcspar (Aug 3, 2006)

Al, or anyone, can you confirm or deny that these have LuxV and the larger 5mm led around the bezel?

Thanks,

Marc


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## Size15's (Aug 3, 2006)

marcspar said:


> Al, or anyone, can you confirm or deny that these have LuxV and the larger 5mm led around the bezel?
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Marc



Yes, LuxeonV behind central TIR optic and 5mm surrounding LEDs.


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## marcspar (Aug 3, 2006)

Thank you!

Marc


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## KDOG3 (Aug 3, 2006)

What? Whoa, I need to see some beamshots of that 5W through the optics. It would be like my L5 with an optic, right? Any US dealers have them?


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## marcspar (Aug 3, 2006)

PM enroute, KDOG3!

Marc


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## roguesw (Aug 3, 2006)

KDOG3 said:


> What? Whoa, I need to see some beamshots of that 5W through the optics. It would be like my L5 with an optic, right? Any US dealers have them?




kdog3, i tried using a KL1 TIR on a Lux V, giant hotspot, projected the four dies perfectly, the hotspot was bigger than a Lux V using Mc-R27 reflector
the KL1TIR is tiny in comparison to a Kroma or Def TIR,
take into account that TIR can customised to the size of the LED, i am guessing the Def TIR will have a good throw and good light coming out of it

now, how do i get my hands on a TIR optic from the DEF or Kroma 

link to pictures taht i posted a comparison between TIR and Mc-R27, in both Lux V and Lux III

http://candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=126340


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## Chehalis (Aug 3, 2006)

So what's the deal with these lights? Are they going to sell them as regular models or will they just be yet another limited edition only sold to the asian markets? Oh, and how can they be shipping these yet we are still waiting for our Kromas? Grrrrrr...


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## MorpheusT1 (Aug 3, 2006)

Nice light for sure,


A little bulky but nice!



I wonder how the Beam on that light looks like!


I had plans on Upgrading my ordered K2 Milspec with a Lux V and boosting the output a little.
If doable.


X fingers.


Benny


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## RemingtonBPD (Aug 3, 2006)

Found this:

http://www.ohled.com/?path=http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Eohled%2Ecom%2Fboard%2Fforum%2Easp%3Fft%3D5%26rn%3D20060729005%26cp%3D1


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## Illum (Aug 3, 2006)

o0o0o0o0o0o0o0o0o0o0ohhhhh!!!!!





I cant one, cant afford one!


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## Chehalis (Aug 3, 2006)

RemingtonBPD said:


> Found this:
> 
> http://www.ohled.com/?path=http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Eohled%2Ecom%2Fboard%2Fforum%2Easp%3Fft%3D5%26rn%3D20060729005%26cp%3D1



What Surefire lights doesn't *curse* have? :huh:


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## Chehalis (Aug 3, 2006)

Okay, it looks like there are five KROMA models. The standard KROMA and the MILSPEC KROMA and then three KROMA TURBO models. These can't all be limited editions as there is way more involved here than just some CNC work or crenelated bezels. What exactly is the deal here? Why wouldn't they sell them in the US? How can they ship these when they haven't even shipped out the regular KROMAs yet? Curse? Size15s? Anybody?


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## MorpheusT1 (Aug 3, 2006)

Beats me!


Im angry as H... now,if i had known this i would have used my money on the 5W model instead of the Kroma milspec.






Benny


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## Mad1 (Aug 3, 2006)

Chehalis said:


> Okay, it looks like there are five KROMA models. The standard KROMA and the MILSPEC KROMA and then three KROMA TURBO models. These can't all be limited editions as there is way more involved here than just some CNC work or crenelated bezels. What exactly is the deal here? Why wouldn't they sell them in the US? How can they ship these when they haven't even shipped out the regular KROMAs yet? Curse? Size15s? Anybody?



Good point.

Places like Asia get everything before we do in Europe and the USA.

Take mobile phones for example they had 3MP camera phones years ago. We are only just getting them.

We are about 2 years behind them in technology.

It's not fair, I want a Kroma.


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## Size15's (Aug 3, 2006)

MorpheusT1 said:


> Beats me!
> Im angry as H... now,if i had known this i would have used my money on the 5W model instead of the Kroma milspec.
> 
> Benny



There's always gonna be the next new flashlight. At some point one has to bite the bullet and buy one rather than wait for the next one and the next one and the one after that.

These "TurboHead Kromas" are special limited editions so I consider these are special additional models to the Kroma & KromaMS rather than part of the Kroma series.


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## 270winchester (Aug 3, 2006)

Mad1 said:


> Good point.
> 
> Places like Asia get everything before we do in Europe and the USA.
> 
> ...



you mean like how they never released any of the Porcupine lights in the western hemisphere?


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## Size15's (Aug 3, 2006)

270winchester said:


> you mean like how they never released any of the Porcupine lights in the western hemisphere?



The Porcupines are extra special since I believe a distributer has an arrangement with SureFire to have them exclusively.

Just because we've not yet seen other Dealers offering these TurboHead Kromas doesn't mean they aren't.


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## EricMack (Aug 3, 2006)

OK, maybe I am weird or something (some of you can easily confirm that  ), but I see searching out Porky's or other rare SF's and other lights as interesting and fun!  Maybe frustrating at times to be sure, but soooo nice when you have success and your hard work pays off and you have something rare and cool in your hands.


Yeah, I guess now that I think about it, I must just be weird. oo:


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## Manzerick (Aug 3, 2006)

i'll take a purple Kroma Porcupine please :lolsign:


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## PoliceScannerMan (Aug 3, 2006)

EricMack said:


> Yeah, I guess now that I think about it, I must just be weird. oo:



I'll second that! :duh2:


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## Chehalis (Aug 3, 2006)

Size15's said:


> The Porcupines are extra special since I believe a distributer has an arrangement with SureFire to have them exclusively.
> 
> Just because we've not yet seen other Dealers offering these TurboHead Kromas doesn't mean they aren't.



Yeah but this is the first we've heard of them and they have already sold out. Only a privileged few who knew about them in advance will be able to get their hands on them. At least with the Porcupines they showed up on some websites for mere mortals to purchase.


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## Chehalis (Aug 3, 2006)

Mad1 said:


> Places like Asia get everything before we do in Europe and the USA.
> 
> Take mobile phones for example they had 3MP camera phones years ago. We are only just getting them.
> 
> ...



Very true but in this case the item in question is actually made in the USA yet not availble here despite this.


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## maverick (Aug 4, 2006)

I've received heaps of PM's from people asking if I have any of these for sale. I guess the short answer would be no, but I would be willing to trade away one of them for something like an L6 Porky if anyone is interested.


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## jeffreylo88 (Aug 4, 2006)

*Surefire DEF3 Vs Kroma Mil*

Apart from the bezel diameter and the color LED mode, what other differences between these two models. Is DEF3 using 5W LED?


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## marcspar (Aug 4, 2006)

*Re: Surefire DEF3 Vs Kroma Mil*

Yes, LuxV vs LuxIII and 5mm surround leds vs 3mm

Half the run time, but lumens goes from 60 to 80 on the main led.

Marc

(plus the really cool PK log!)


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## Grox (Aug 4, 2006)

*Re: Surefire DEF3 Vs Kroma Mil*

Did you say 2 stage clicky? How does that work?


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## PoliceScannerMan (Aug 5, 2006)

I heard it through the Surefire vine that the only difference between the 8K and 5K Turbo Kroma models were the Kelvin temp of the main led.... The switches/tailcaps are the same for both models....

8K is going to be way cooler than the 5K....

Heres a Kelvin Chart.....







_**Of course this is all vapor, just sharing some with you folks**_


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## seattlite (Aug 5, 2006)

Anyone know of a Surefire Dealer in Beijing, China. I have a buddy that's going overthere in a couple of weeks. Maybe he can round up some Asia only SF lights.


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## AW (Aug 5, 2006)

The local dealer here just bumped up the price of the 8K from $275 to $480. Almost 75% price hike within a few days


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## PoliceScannerMan (Aug 5, 2006)

PoliceScannerMan said:


> I heard it through the Surefire vine that the only difference between the 8K and 5K Turbo Kroma models were the Kelvin temp of the main led.... The switches/tailcaps are the same for both models....
> 
> 8K is going to be way cooler than the 5K....
> 
> ...


Can anyone confirm my vapor on the 5K and 8K?


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## Virgo (Aug 5, 2006)

I can't confirm it, but I've heard similar.


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## WAVE_PARTICLE (Aug 5, 2006)

Whoah......if the 8K cost $480......

Man, I can't image what the 5K would cost!!!! :green: 

5K would definately be my preference. 8000 kelvin is a bit too cool.




WP


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## AW (Aug 5, 2006)

The 5K here is $410.... they have a smaller bezel with 3mm LEDs. Price few days ago was $225.


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## PoliceScannerMan (Aug 5, 2006)

AW said:


> The 5K here is $410.... they have a smaller bezel with 3mm LEDs. Price few days ago was $225.


 :huh2: 

So there is a physical size difference between the 5K and 8K?


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## CM (Aug 5, 2006)

AW said:


> The 5K here is $410.... they have a smaller bezel with 3mm LEDs. Price few days ago was $225.



Irrational Exuberance ? :nana:


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## cue003 (Aug 5, 2006)

Did I understand correctly that you CANNOT turn on the outer LED's on the 5K without the main led turned on? Is that correct?



maverick said:


> .... I also saw a "DEF 5K" version, the difference is the brightness of the main led and the inability to turn on the outer leds independantly of the main led....



Curtis


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## MorpheusT1 (Aug 5, 2006)

Im confused :thinking:



Benny


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## UKSFighter (Aug 5, 2006)

I've seen a different version of the 5K. It has 5mm LEDs on the outer ring, they can be activated without the white main beam or with it and have a 5W Lux behind a cool looking TIR. The bezel is 2" in diameter. Also of note, the one I saw has a 2 stage clickie tailcap (very interesting). Low and High beam of the central LED, super bright and lots of throw.


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## EricMack (Aug 5, 2006)

tacticalsupply.com said:


> I've seen a different version of the 5K. It has 5mm LEDs on the outer ring, they can be activated without the white main beam or with it and have a 5W Lux behind a cool looking TIR. The bezel is 2" in diameter. Also of note, the one I saw has a 2 stage clickie tailcap (very interesting). Low and High beam of the central LED, super bright and lots of throw.


 
That sounds sweet!!


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## MorpheusT1 (Aug 5, 2006)

AW said:


> The local dealer here just bumped up the price of the 8K from $275 to $480. Almost 75% price hike within a few days




Can you show us some pictures of the ones you have seen VS the Light dicussed in this thread.


It would be interesting to know more about the diffrences.



Thanks,
Benny


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## Tsz Kin (Aug 5, 2006)

I bought 8K too !!


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## PoliceScannerMan (Aug 5, 2006)

Very nice, the 8K does look pretty cool in temp, like a YO tint.

Cool PICS!


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## EricMack (Aug 5, 2006)

Now THAT'S a hotspot!  

Very cool pics, thanks a lot.


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## WAVE_PARTICLE (Aug 5, 2006)

Wow!!
Nice light!! Great beamshots!!!


WP


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## JCM3 (Aug 5, 2006)

From what I can tell there are three versions (red/blue, red/green and blue/ir) and perhaps 5K and 8K variants of those as well. All of these have 5mm LEDs surrounding the lens. I don't think there is one with 3mm LEDs as that would mean it does not have a Turbohead right? Maybe someone is confusing it with the regular red/blue Kroma? It sounds like 5K and 8K refer only to the color temperature and not the functionality of the light or size of the surrounding LEDs.

I'd be interested in purchasing one of these 5K Turbo Kromas with a red/green combination. Please PM me if you can do this. Thanks.


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## JCM3 (Aug 5, 2006)

AW said:


> The 5K here is $410.... they have a smaller bezel with 3mm LEDs. Price few days ago was $225.



Did you see this in person or was this something they told you via email/phone? Could they simply be releasing the regular Kroma in two different color temperatures? If it has 3mm LEDs and a smaller bezel then it's not a Turbohead version. Is the white beam on high still using a Luxeon V at 80 lumens on this non-Turbohead version as opposed to a Luxeon III at 60 lumens as with the regular Kroma? Maverick also mentioned the 5K version having a dimmer light and inability to used the surrounding LEDs on their own. Not being able to use them individually doesn't make much sense though. This is all very confusing. There appear to be as many as 14 versions of the Kroma now. This is getting out of hand.


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## AW (Aug 6, 2006)

I have handled them myself at the local dealer here but haven't bought one yet.


Tse Kin : :wave: How many times you'll have to skip lunch to buy that 8K?:naughty:


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## Tsz Kin (Aug 6, 2006)

AW said:


> I have handled them myself at the local dealer here but haven't bought one yet.
> 
> 
> Tse Kin : :wave: How many times you'll have to skip lunch to buy that 8K?:naughty:


AW :wave: No ~~~ I have lunch Daily ~~~don't worry my lunch!!


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## Size15's (Aug 6, 2006)

JCM3 said:


> There appear to be as many as 14 versions of the Kroma now. This is getting out of hand.



There are two types of Kroma. The Kroma and the Kroma-MS.
All these others are special limited editions - once they're sold that's it.


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## PoliceScannerMan (Aug 6, 2006)

Size15's said:


> There are two types of Kroma. The Kroma and the Kroma-MS.
> All these others are special limited editions - once they're sold that's it.


Al, can you clear up this 8K/5K mess?


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## Size15's (Aug 6, 2006)

PoliceScannerMan said:


> Al, can you clear up this 8K/5K mess?



yeah, as mentioned: 5K and 8K are the colour temperature of the beams.
5K being mid-day sun and 8K being bright blue sky. In other words - the tint.

Al


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## cue003 (Aug 6, 2006)

Other than that Al, do the operate the exact same?

i.e.
Hi/lo on main white LED
Hi only on the surrounding LEDs

Curtis


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## Size15's (Aug 6, 2006)

*Re: Got some Surefire PKEF's*

Yes.

DEF is DARPA Experimental Flashlight. (DARPA Project now ended)
PKEF is PK Experimental Flashlight.
These PKEF's are Special Limited Editions - 200 made total.
World-wide distribution to interested SureFire Dealers (I believe).

There are three versions of the PKEF (A, B & C).

PKEF-A (eight, 5mm Red LEDs / low beam white / eight, 5mm Green LEDs)
PKEF-B (eight, 5mm Red LEDs / low beam white / eight, 5mm Blue LEDs)
PKEF-C (eight, 5mm IR LEDs / low beam white / eight, 5mm Blue LEDs)

50mm (2") diameter "Turbo" bezel. LuxeonV behind a TIR optic main beam.
sixteen 5mm LEDs surrounding it.

These all have two-stage clickie TailCaps. The dial selects the low beam.
If the low beam is selected as one of the 5mm LEDs sets then it will remain on when the high beam is activated (just like the A2).

The 5K and 8K represent the colour temperature of the LuxeonV - 8K being blue tinted.

I understand that at the same time as these PKEF's were sent to Dealers they could also get Kroma-MS with the body featuring PK's logo (this body is the same as used by the PKEF - I guess they etched more than they needed for the PKEF's so they used them up. BTW, this body is the same as used by the U2).

There seems to be stories of other variations floating around. I have not been able to confirm any of these.

Al


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## PoliceScannerMan (Aug 6, 2006)

Awesome, thanks Al, I think you just cleared up a bunch of confusion. :goodjob: 

It is intersting how they separated the tints by Kelvin, perhaps these limited edition lights is whats going to be the SF trend in the future to give buyers better chances in the "Lottery"? I know some people like cooler tints (8K), while i prefer warmer tints (5K). 

I believe the regular KROMAS run for 120minutes on high, while the Turbo runs only 60 minutes on high. _(Although it would be awesome if these puppies could run on 18650's :rock: I suspect it is going to have the "Metal sleeve" making almost impossible to do that....  )_

Anyone know about runtimes on the led ring or on low (Main led) for the turbo?


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## Size15's (Aug 6, 2006)

PoliceScannerMan said:


> It is intersting how they separated the tints by Kelvin, perhaps these limited edition lights is whats going to be the SF trend in the future to give buyers better chances in the "Lottery"? I know some people like cooler tints (8K), while i prefer warmer tints (5K).



I believe this not to be the case. 
You may have noticed that some of the DEF bezels were 5K & 8K and I understand these PKEF bezels are akin to 'left-overs' from that project. One may like to assume that one of the attributes SureFire wanted feedback on as part of the DARPA project was whether tint is important [in general, or perhaps for certain applications].

Remember that these are a rare chance to buy a part of SureFire's R&D process. They are a snap-shot in time already past. They are history - with the Kroma SureFire have already moved on. I strong suggest that one should not infer anything based on these PKEF's with regards to future products or trends. 

They are what they are and for once PK/SureFire is giving fans the chance to see for themselves.

Al


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## Flashdark (Aug 6, 2006)

Al,

I get the distinct impression that these are earlier prototypes - experimentations that eventually developed into the final K2 or K2MS models currently coming to market. They seem far less capable and sophisticated than the KROMA models.


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## WAVE_PARTICLE (Aug 6, 2006)

Yes. A piece of Surefire history and R&D!

This is as close to DARPA as anyone is gonna get!


:thumbsup: WP


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## MorpheusT1 (Aug 6, 2006)

How can they be less sophisticated if they have all the functions a Kroma have + one the kroma doesent.

The PKEF has a 2 stage clicky and the regular Kroma doesent.
Has a Lux V behind the TIR Optic for a fantastic beam i keep hearing.

Plus it is a little more rare 
with only 199 made...


Ofcource all of this is Vapor..
:shrug:





Benny


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## Chehalis (Aug 6, 2006)

These are based on the DEF3 series which were made for the DARPA project to create flashlights for the military. Some of those could go as high as 120 lumens. These limited edition PKEF versions are pretty much identical aside from their 80 lumen output. Still more powerful than the regular Kroma and Kroma-MS and they have brighter 5mm surrounding LEDs as well. I don't see how they are less capable and sophisticated.

I suspect we may someday see a retail version of the DEF1 though as it is essentially a Kroma without the surrounding LEDs *or* a U2 with a TIR optic instead of a reflector depending on how you look at it. Just speculation on my part though I think it's a logical choice.


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## Size15's (Aug 6, 2006)

Flashdark, 
They can't be proto-types if they were DEFs (Experimentals). The difference is that the DEFs were created for experimentation/research. Proto-types are created for development/research. The goals were different but I guess the spirit is the same.

MorpheusT1, 
So the K2 / K2-MS do not have the two-stage clickie. Perhaps SureFire decided that the concept was not ready for release with these Kromas? Apart from the two-stage clickie I would tend to agree with Flashdark (and myself).
It's not vapourware since PKEF's are being delivered to Dealers and as we've seen already to users as we type.

Chehalis,
You know what SureFire is like with their lumen ratings. Perhaps 80 lumens is what they feel comfortable rating the PKEF's based on the 200 produced? Perhaps the key was not the total lumen output but the colour temperates being more tightly controlled?
Also, the Kromas are deliberately not being driven hard in order to extend the runtime. 

The ability to offer more switching (low output settings) from a smaller bezel and having created a more refined larger-scale production-capable design is evidence to me for the Kromas being more sophisticated than the PKEF's.

Al


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## MorpheusT1 (Aug 6, 2006)

Size15's said:


> MorpheusT1,
> So the K2 / K2-MS do not have the two-stage clickie. Perhaps SureFire decided that the concept was not ready for release with these Kromas? Apart from the two-stage clickie I would tend to agree with Flashdark (and myself).
> It's not vapourware since PKEF's are being delivered to Dealers and as we've seen already to users as we type.
> 
> Al




I believe the regular Kroma only has a two stage momentary and the PKEF has a two stage clickie.I am not 100% sure...and wont be until we have this answered.

But i was also thinking the same thing,maybe the 2 stage clickie were proven to be not as reliable as the momentary.


Benny


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## Size15's (Aug 6, 2006)

Benny, you are correct. 
No Kroma is being supplied with a two-stage clickie TailCap.
Only the PKEF's are being supplied with the two-stage clickie TailCap.



Size15's said:


> MorpheusT1,
> So the K2 / K2-MS do not have the two-stage clickie.



Perhaps I should have written "So what? The K2 / K2-MS do not have the two-stage clickie. The important thing in the context of sophistication is the bezel. The TailCaps are interchangeable with the K2 (but not with the U2 or any other SureFire)

Al


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## Sixpointone (Aug 6, 2006)

Al,

Out of curiousity, might you know if the Kroma Milspec Lights that will be released will have the "PK" etching on the body.

On the pictures I've seen so far they have, but of course that is not an absolute that that will be the case when they are released.

All My Best,
John


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## Size15's (Aug 6, 2006)

Sixpointone said:


> Al,
> 
> Out of curiousity, might you know if the Kroma Milspec Lights that will be released will have the "PK" etching on the body.
> 
> ...



John, the production version will not.
However, since the production version has not yet been released, there are some "pre-release" versions out there and being sold as specials that feature the same body as used by the PKEF which does have PK's logo on it.
These are few and fair between though.


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## Sixpointone (Aug 6, 2006)

Size15's said:


> John, the production version will not.
> However, since the production version has not yet been released, there are some "pre-release" versions out there and being sold as specials that feature the same body as used by the PKEF which does have PK's logo on it.
> These are few and fair between though.



Thanks for the fast reply Al, it is much appreciated!

If by chance you might know where I'd be able to purchase one with the "PK" etching, please send me a PM.

Once again, Thanks for your info!

All My Best,
John


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## Size15's (Aug 6, 2006)

Sixpointone said:


> If by chance you might know where I'd be able to purchase one with the "PK" etching, please send me a PM.



If it were that simple I'm sure all the dealers would be speaking up for themselves.
May-be if you pm me with your details I can pass them on to a couple dealers for you?

Al


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## dudemar (Aug 7, 2006)

270winchester said:


> you mean like how they never released any of the Porcupine lights in the western hemisphere?


 
Personally I think the Porcupine (and many heavily modded flashlights only available in East Asia) was an independent aftermarket project done by Hong Kong hobbyists. Hong Kong is very well known for its proliferation and ubiquity of aftermarket/custom parts for cars, Airsoft, flashlights, etc. with precise machining techniques. Most of the products are of high quality, but some are not that great. It's not to say the Porcupine sucks (I doubt it, it looks great and I want one!:rock: ), but shoddy imitation brands are known to come out of the area as well.

I just have a strong feeling the Porcupine is not originally from Surefire, that the bezel was custom made in Hong Kong. As for the Surefire DEF I'm not sure where it's from, but it wouldn't hurt to take it with a grain of salt.

For you handgun fanatics out there think of it as gunsmithing your barrel to have ports, your slide with custom grips/designs, or even anodizing your gun with different colors (you can see a fine example of this at the Magnum Research website).

The same can be said for cars (boring out cylinders to make them bigger, etc.)

Hope this helps!

the Dude with fries and drink


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## EricMack (Aug 7, 2006)

Sorry, Dude. I have both the lights, and thankfully you are dead wrong.


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## blahblahblah (Aug 7, 2006)

dudemar said:


> Personally I think the Porcupine (and many heavily modded flashlights only available in East Asia) was an independent aftermarket project done by Hong Kong hobbyists. ...
> 
> I just have a strong feeling the Porcupine is not originally from Surefire, that the bezel was custom made in Hong Kong. As for the Surefire DEF I'm not sure where it's from, but it wouldn't hurt to take it with a grain of salt.
> ...
> ...



Got any proof for your thought and stong feeling? 

My strong feeling is: There is no proof of aliens either! 


Cheers:drunk:


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## Chehalis (Aug 7, 2006)

dudemar said:


> Personally I think the Porcupine (and many heavily modded flashlights only available in East Asia) was an independent aftermarket project done by Hong Kong hobbyists. Hong Kong is very well known for its proliferation and ubiquity of aftermarket/custom parts for cars, Airsoft, flashlights, etc. with precise machining techniques. Most of the products are of high quality, but some are not that great. It's not to say the Porcupine sucks (I doubt it, it looks great and I want one!:rock: ), but shoddy imitation brands are known to come out of the area as well.




I think it must be this guy making all these knock-offs.


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## PoliceScannerMan (Aug 7, 2006)

Chehalis said:


> I think it must be this guy making all these knock-offs.


Awesome PK drinks Miller Lite!


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## Virgo (Aug 7, 2006)

How much do you think the signature on his name tag is worth?:naughty: 

I'm a freak, but I would love to have that as part of a PK collection.

I wonder which light he's wearing around his neck that is illuminating his tie?


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## slick228 (Aug 7, 2006)

Chehalis said:


> I think it must be this guy making all these knock-offs.



Nice picture!


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## tvodrd (Aug 7, 2006)

And this is the same guy handing me an unopened L6 Porky at the same party. 

Larry


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## EricMack (Aug 7, 2006)

Virgo said:


> I wonder which light he's wearing around his neck that is illuminating his tie?


 
Pretty darn sure that's the Ti Pocket Rocket around his kneck. Look closely and see the stainless steel L-6 body in the background sort of hiding...

This is kinda nice too, PKEF Turbo Kroma (5K) Version B; sorry not the best shots, I never claimed to be a good photog.


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## cheapo (Aug 7, 2006)

beamshots Pleez?

-David


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## Size15's (Aug 7, 2006)

I think we've reassured ourselves that dudemar's comments do not hold up.

The DEF's (and these current PKEF's) and the Porcupines are SureFire designed and made.

Al


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## EricMack (Aug 7, 2006)

Dudemar is all good in my book! :rock: I'd have had some doubts too until I hung around here for awhile. So many great folks to learn from in these hallowed halls. :thumbsup:


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## WAVE_PARTICLE (Aug 7, 2006)

Geez, Eric. Nice light!!! :rock: 


I wish I got one.....



WP


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## UKSFighter (Aug 7, 2006)

Nice pics Eric and Virgo. Those lights look sweet.


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## Virgo (Aug 7, 2006)

Definitely the King (or I should say Queen; I decided to name her Lucy) of my modest collection. Yippee, it's finally dark. I'm gonna go test this honey out.


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## Chehalis (Aug 8, 2006)

Beamshots?


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## Virgo (Aug 8, 2006)

I'm going to have to leave the beamshots to Mack. I already tried with my phonecam, and they were pretty bad. It has a hard enough time in ideal conditions.


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## seattlite (Aug 8, 2006)

Anyone know whether these PKEF lights are covered by the Surefire Lifetime Warranty?


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## dudemar (Aug 8, 2006)

blahblahblah said:


> Got any proof for your thought and stong feeling?


 
You guys don't have to be so sarcastic, I honestly didn't know.:scowl: A simple "PK designed them" would've been enough. Besides, someone has to know the reason for the proliferation of these Surefires in East Asia, I wanna know!


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## RadarGreg (Aug 8, 2006)

Just to throw a bit more information into this thread, of the ten Kroma-MS I had ordered and were delivered to my unit in Iraq, all ten bore the PK signature. I don't know if there were part of a prototype manufacturing run, but all performed flawlessly. We were able to take delivery very soon after the purchase order was made and all were serial numbered. The Kroma-MS lights are really fantastic.


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## AW (Aug 8, 2006)

seattlite said:


> Anyone know whether these PKEF lights are covered by the Surefire Lifetime Warranty?


 
See details here :


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## dudemar (Aug 8, 2006)

EricMack said:


> Dudemar is all good in my book! :rock: I'd have had some doubts too until I hung around here for awhile. So many great folks to learn from in these hallowed halls. :thumbsup:


 
Thanks Eric at least you understand!


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## Chehalis (Aug 8, 2006)

Hmmmm, so the official designation for these is DEF3 A, B and C after all.


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## nc987 (Aug 8, 2006)

To me the most exciting information gained from this thread is that Surefire seems to have found a way to control the tint on there lux v's. Hopefully this will in someway result in a future decrease of the bitching people around here tend to do about the slight tint variations present in the lux v's.


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## Chehalis (Aug 8, 2006)

Since they halted R&D on incandescents quite a while ago I think it's more about improving the color rendition of LEDs and offering more choices for different applications. I think we may see color temperature as an option in the future.


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## Size15's (Aug 8, 2006)

Chehalis said:


> Hmmmm, so the official designation for these is DEF3 A, B and C after all.



Don't believe that based on the manual it was shipped with. The Kromas have been shipping out with U2 manuals. There was not time nor inclination to customise the manual for this special run of 200 lights.


As for why so many of these were purchased by Asian Dealers... As is proven time and time again when it comes to putting up the readies for the coolest toys the Asians are usually quickest off the blocks. When you're willing to pay rather than mess around for a deal money shouts the loudest.

That's my impression at least.

Al


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## Mark2 (Aug 8, 2006)

Size15's said:


> As for why so many of these were purchased by Asian Dealers... As is proven time and time again when it comes to putting up the readies for the coolest toys the Asians are usually quickest off the blocks. When you're willing to pay rather than mess around for a deal money shouts the loudest.



Or maybe PK just happens to have many friends in that part of the world


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## PoliceScannerMan (Aug 8, 2006)

Chehalis said:


> Hmmmm, so the official designation for these is DEF3 A, B and C after all.



Here is some Vapor remover for ya....


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## seattlite (Aug 8, 2006)

Size15's said:


> Don't believe that based on the manual it was shipped with. The Kromas have been shipping out with U2 manuals. There was not time nor inclination to customise the manual for this special run of 200 lights.
> 
> 
> As for why so many of these were purchased by Asian Dealers... As is proven time and time again when it comes to putting up the readies for the coolest toys the Asians are usually quickest off the blocks. When you're willing to pay rather than mess around for a deal money shouts the loudest.
> ...



So....Will Surefire Lifetime Warranty apply to this light. I have gotten replies from 2 seperate Asian Surefire Dealers that supply the PKEF lights and both say that the Surefire Lifetime Warranty does not apply. Can anyone confirm.

Thanks,
Richard


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## PoliceScannerMan (Aug 8, 2006)

BEAMSHOTS!​My U2 and my L4 are brighter than all my X-binned lights. Heres a comparison of how the PKEF stacks up.....









































My L4 is WO/XO tinted, you can see in this pic how warm the 5K is, its definatley in the V1 ball park! :rock:


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## EricMack (Aug 8, 2006)

Saweeet pics, homey! :laughing: So glad you and WP are around to take such great shots, I sure can't. Did you get a pair? One for each side of the big bad Dixon?!


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## PoliceScannerMan (Aug 8, 2006)

EricMack said:


> Saweeet pics, homey! :laughing: So glad you and WP are around to take such great shots, I sure can't. Did you get a pair? One for each side of the big bad Dixon?!


The Dixon has headlights, when ever i get time, I'm thinking about replacing them w/ HID's. :rock:


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## WAVE_PARTICLE (Aug 8, 2006)

EricMack said:


> ..... So glad you and WP are around to take such great shots, I sure can't.....


 
Yeah... first I need one of these in my hands in order to take some pics....  

Outstanding photos, PSM!!!!! :bow: 

Awesome beamshots!!! Puts this light into perspective!

This light takes a little bit of the thunder out of the coming release of the Kroma/Kroma Mil-spec....

Granted, this is a totally different light....

:thumbsup: WP


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## EricMack (Aug 8, 2006)

PoliceScannerMan said:


> The Dixon has headlights, when ever i get time, I'm thinking about replacing them w/ HID's. :rock:


 
Cool idea, but wouldn't shipping the Dix to Boston cost a little much, even for you? :lolsign:


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## cheapo (Aug 8, 2006)

nice beamshots... I wonder how much range that thing has.... if you have extra time, maybe we could get some long range beamshots at far away trees. 

-david


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## Size15's (Aug 8, 2006)

seattlite said:


> So....Will Surefire Lifetime Warranty apply to this light. I have gotten replies from 2 seperate Asian Surefire Dealers that supply the PKEF lights and both say that the Surefire Lifetime Warranty does not apply. Can anyone confirm.
> 
> Thanks,
> Richard



I understand that SureFire's Warranty does not apply to the PKEF's because they are experimental (hence the name) and SureFire does not have any stock or components to repair them should they break. This likely includes the two-stage TailCap unless it becomes a production component in the future. They are a chance to own a part of SureFire's R&D process.


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## MorpheusT1 (Aug 8, 2006)

Nice Beamshots PSM!



Makes me want one of these Baad!



Benny


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## seattlite (Aug 8, 2006)

Size15's said:


> I understand that SureFire's Warranty does not apply to the PKEF's because they are experimental (hence the name) and SureFire does not have any stock or components to repair them should they break. This likely includes the two-stage TailCap unless it becomes a production component in the future. They are a chance to own a part of SureFire's R&D process.



I just got off the phone with a SF Tech Support Rep, and I asked him about these PKEF lights and if SF will warranty them. I re-iterated that these are PK EXPERIMENTAL lights and say so on the brown box packaging, and he stated that if it came from SF that SF will service it. He stated that it might take longer to service since SF might have to "fabricate a component" that it doesn't stock or have, but SF will service the light. I'm uncertain whether what was said was just the SF Tech Support's opinion or actual SF policy. 

So, if anyone were to purchase these lights, you should know that SF **might not** service these lights.

Richard


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## Size15's (Aug 8, 2006)

If it can not repaired it can not be replaced. I understand that this is the difference from standard SureFire products.


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## Chehalis (Aug 8, 2006)

Lots more beamshots here from our friend curse.


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## Kiessling (Aug 8, 2006)

Thanx everyone for the pics and work !!!
Seems to be one hell of a light there!!


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## PoliceScannerMan (Aug 9, 2006)

OUTDOOR RAINY BEAMSHOTS!!! :rock: 

All of these were taken with the flashlight in its brightest setting. I'm no photographer, but you get a general idea for brightness. The first pics are about from 60-70 feet out. The second pics are about 190-200 feet to the green shed.


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## WAVE_PARTICLE (Aug 9, 2006)

The PKEF has great color rendition......warm. I'd say V1 tinted!
Thanks for doing these beamshots!!! Great work!

This light seems to be a bit of a thrower!

:thumbsup: WP


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## PoliceScannerMan (Aug 9, 2006)

Has anyone who owns one noticed how shiny the clip is compared to the U2's clip (same clip). I swear its chromed.... :naughty: My U2's clip just seems dull...


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## EricMack (Aug 9, 2006)

PoliceScannerMan said:


> Has anyone who owns one noticed how shiny the clip is compared to the U2's clip (same clip). I swear its chromed.... :naughty: My U2's clip just seems dull...


 
Good gosh, PSM, you have to cut that out! You're going to give Wave a heart attack with comments like that!! You know how excited he got over the hat...


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## PoliceScannerMan (Aug 9, 2006)

EricMack said:


> Good gosh, PSM, you have to cut that out! You're going to give Wave a heart attack with comments like that!! You know how excited he got over the hat...


Seriously, its gotta be chrome! SS aint this shiny!

Sorry Wave hang tight! It'll get there!


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## blahblahblah (Aug 9, 2006)

PSM,

Are those beamshots from a 5K or 8K ??? I like the color rendition and the throw as compared to the U2.

I'm getting excited. I have a tracking # for my 5Ks. They should be here when I get back from my camping/river rafting trip this weekend. I've also got some vapor which may turn into an 8K next week. :rock:

BBB


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## MorpheusT1 (Aug 9, 2006)

PSM`s light is the PKEF A 5k.

Same as the one im getting 

You got a hold of three PKEF`s?


Lucky dawg 




Benny


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## blahblahblah (Aug 9, 2006)

MorpheusT1 said:


> PSM`s light is the PKEF A 5k.
> 
> Same as the one im getting
> 
> ...



Sweet. I'm happy that it is a 5K. I have 2 version A and 1 version B coming my way. The vapor is an 8K version A. So, including vapor, it will be 4 total. 

Did you see this: http://flashlight-forums.com/index.php?topic=3182.0 ???


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## WAVE_PARTICLE (Aug 9, 2006)

blah x 3: your sickness runs pretty deep.....so do your pockets! :naughty: 


WP


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## MorpheusT1 (Aug 9, 2006)

Those pockets must be Bottomless 



Yeah i saw the Sales thread,the price does not surprise me at all.
After these are sold out from HK the price will raise even more than that.


If the rumors of only 199 made is true it will be more sought after than the L6
Porky.


Benny


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## Pax et Lux (Aug 9, 2006)

I don't want to be taking this thread off-topic, but it looks like Curse has got himself a Surefire Pocket Rocket, too:

http://www.ohled.com/?path=http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Eohled%2Ecom%2Fboard%2Fforum%2Easp%3Fft%3D5%26rn%3D20060808007%26cp%3D1

Most likely it's a prototype. . . I've not seen these on the Surefire website, nor read on CPF that they were available.

The beamshots make it look not quite as bright as a Fenix P1, tho' it's probably too early to speculate. The runtime - and build quality - will tell the full story.


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## blahblahblah (Aug 9, 2006)

MorpheusT1 said:


> After these are sold out from HK the price will raise even more than that.
> 
> 
> If the rumors of only 199 made is true it will be more sought after than the L6
> ...



Hmmm... maybe I'll hang on to the extra 5K version A instead of selling it. It did have your name on it for a while. :nana:

From what I hear, HK is sold out. I had another CPF member check for me and one of the largest or the largest store there is sold out. There's always Korea, Singapore, and Taiwan. I don't know which countries got what or if any. I know HK did. I'd be willing to guess that Korea did, because I think Curse is there and he's got a nice collection of PKEFs.


WP & MorpheusT1:
These pockets are deep only for a short time. I will be getting married in less than a month. I'm enjoying my guilt-free flashaholism for the time being. Right now, I'm spending 'my' $$$ and not 'our' $$$. We'll have to see how things go in another month.



WAVE_PARTICLE said:


> blah x 3: your sickness runs pretty deep.....so do your pockets! :naughty:
> 
> 
> WP


Is my sickness deeper than yours? :touche::lolsign: We won't even discuss pockets on CPF... The last time we did, it went south discussing Don's "manly treasures". :shakehead:nana::lolsign:


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## blahblahblah (Aug 9, 2006)

Pax et Lux said:


> I don't want to be taking this thread off-topic, but it looks like Curse has got himself a Surefire Pocket Rocket, too:
> 
> http://www.ohled.com/?path=http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Eohled%2Ecom%2Fboard%2Fforum%2Easp%3Fft%3D5%26rn%3D20060808007%26cp%3D1
> 
> ...



Curse has some sort of amazing connection w/ PK, which I can only speculate on. His collection is truly fine, especially when it comes to SF. Unfortunately, he was unknown to CPF until he appeared out of the blue, selling a RARE purple A2. I wish he would join us more on CPF.


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## Chehalis (Aug 9, 2006)

MorpheusT1 said:


> Yeah i saw the Sales thread,the price does not surprise me at all.
> After these are sold out from HK the price will raise even more than that.
> 
> 
> If the rumors of only 199 made is true it will be more sought after than the L6 Porky.



Sell your stock and buy flashlights!


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## MorpheusT1 (Aug 9, 2006)

LOL,









Benny


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## Chehalis (Aug 9, 2006)

Now all we need is a Build To Order program from Surefire. Can you imagine being able to configure your own Kroma? Selecting between a 3W and 5W for the main beam, choosing your preferred color temperature, selecting the colors and layout of the surrounding LEDs, etc? Maybe you could even have it engraved with your name or other information.

Mine would have a 5W for the main beam and 12 Yellow-Green and 4 Red for the surrounding LEDs... or maybe 4 each of Yellow-Green, Red, IR and UV... or maybe 16 each of UV alone... the possibilities would be endless. I'd have to buy a bunch. Just a thought I had after seeing these various versions of the PKEF limited edition.


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## seattlite (Aug 10, 2006)

So what kind of rechargeables will power this thing? 1x18650? 2xRCR123(8.4v)?


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## RadarGreg (Aug 10, 2006)

18650s won't fit. They won't work in the Surefire Kroma either (I tried). The RCR123 cells do fit and work well in both lights though.


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## AW (Aug 10, 2006)

My button top 17670 will work  . However, you'll still have to adjust the bezel spring a little bid for better contact.


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## seattlite (Aug 10, 2006)

AW,
Did you just take some needle nose pliars and extend the spring?

RadarGreg,
Can you confirm that 2xRCR123's(8.4V) will work in the PKEF-5K or -8K and will not fry the converter? Will excess voltage put the led in DD on fresh RCR123 cells or will it buck the excess?

Thanks,
Richard


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## AW (Aug 10, 2006)

Richard,

No need to extend the spring. Just bend it little bid so it'll stay in the center and make contact with the button top of the 17670. A single 17670 will power the DEF to full brightness.

AW


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## RadarGreg (Aug 10, 2006)

Seattlite,

I've tried unprotected RCR123s, and thay haven't blow the LEDs. As with any extremely rare item, if you want to be absolutely careful, use nonrechargeable CR123s.


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## seattlite (Aug 15, 2006)

What are your experiences with the tailcap? No problems on all modes? Flakey, some problems with clicky and twist, constant on?


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