# Microfire HID vs. CREE XR-E



## NewBie (Oct 29, 2006)

Okay, I've been poking around the house looking for some flashlight and reflector I have that can actually compare with the XR-E.

I have the XR-E directly soldered to take full advantage of the thermal properties, instead of a MCPCB, which helps take full advantage of the XR-E's abilities. The XR-E is being overdriven @ 1.1 Amps, and the 2" by 3" by 0.165" copper plate did not even get luke warm during the test. Power consumed is 3.74 Watts.

The comparision flashlight is a Microfire Warrior 10 Watt HID flashlight.

Take note that I used a non-optimized McGizmo HD45 reflector and a huge amount of the XR-E lumens are being directed in the flood beam. This is quite obvious in the beamshots towards the end, the Microfire has very little flood power in comparision.


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## Ikonomi (Oct 29, 2006)

Wow. A balanced comparison between LED and HID is something I never thought I'd see. 

I'm sure the Microfire throws much, much farther, but that Cree is really putting out some light! I'm beginning to wonder if the 75 degree pattern is much of a problem after all. The spill has been wonderful in every XR-E beamshot so far.


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## iNDiGLo (Oct 29, 2006)

That XR-E is da shizz. Very impressive!


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## Ikonomi (Oct 29, 2006)

Whoops... Double post somehow. Busy server.


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## [email protected] Messenger (Oct 29, 2006)

Holy fishiasrasmfdslath, that's pretty bright!


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## WAVE_PARTICLE (Oct 29, 2006)

Very interesting comparison. The first I've ever seen, comparing LED with HID....

Hmmm....I wonder what the comparison would look like if some kind of reflector/optic optimized for the CREE is used...... interesting indeed!

:thumbsup: WP


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## IsaacHayes (Oct 29, 2006)

Jar, how come you haven't yet put the cree behind the 2" aspheryical lens yet? That should give it the narrow throw it needs to compete with the HID!!!


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## LifeNRA (Oct 29, 2006)

It sure is an exciting time to be flashaholic. 

:goodjob: Newbie on all your test with the new Cree XR-E.


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## x2x3x2 (Oct 29, 2006)

comparing an emitter soldered directly to a heatsink with one on a star mcpcb which is is then soldered to a heatsink, is there really a significant difference?


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## NewBie (Oct 29, 2006)

Ikonomi said:


> Wow. A balanced comparison between LED and HID is something I never thought I'd see.
> 
> I'm sure the Microfire throws much, much farther, but that Cree is really putting out some light! I'm beginning to wonder if the 75 degree pattern is much of a problem after all. The spill has been wonderful in every XR-E beamshot so far.




Keep in mind, that the reflector I am using was never designed for the XR-E, but for a Luxeon, and as such, it puts a tremendous amount of light in the flood beam. A proper reflector would drastically change things.


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## farmall (Oct 29, 2006)

I am very impressed with what I am seeing out of these CREE XR-E lights.

Great photos.


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## NewBie (Oct 29, 2006)

x2x3x2 said:


> comparing an emitter soldered directly to a heatsink with one on a star mcpcb which is is then soldered to a heatsink, is there really a significant difference?



It depends on the design of the MCPCB. Not all are created equal, by no means. There are great ones, and there are so so ones, with others in between.

With the ceramic base of the CREE, and the thermal spreading resistance of the CREE package, a great MCPCB can make a very nice difference, I'd figure one could see a 20% difference around 1000mA.

My direct soldering to copper, basically gets rid of spreading resistance as well as probably drops die temperatures 10% to 30%, depending on the MCPCB and the drive situation. 

There are high end MCPCBs, as well as tricks one can play with MCPCBs if you can design your own, which will not cost you any extra, if you are doing volume designs. More tricks can be played with the CREE, since the "slug" is electrically isolated.


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## AlexGT (Oct 29, 2006)

Howly shiit!!!! That comparison has left me speechless!!!! I never tought I would see the day that HID compared to luxeon! 

OMG! What bin you said you had? P2? I agree with IssacHayes, put that sucker behind a lens and compare them again, I think this time the LED will beat the HID and only 1.1 amp!!! Dang!!! Keep up the great work!

AlexGT


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## Badbeams3 (Oct 29, 2006)

Wow, I`m surprised how well the led is competing with a hid. I personaly like a light with plenty of flood. But to keep apples to apples the Cree beam would need to be tightened up. I can see/imagine they would be close. And at a fraction of the power consumption.

I can`t help but wonder what the Cree would do if installed/modded in a AAA light like the Fenix E-1. In my fantasy it would be a killer small bright light...with great run time.

Thanks for the pic`s


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## NewBie (Oct 30, 2006)

IsaacHayes said:


> Jar, how come you haven't yet put the cree behind the 2" aspheryical lens yet? That should give it the narrow throw it needs to compete with the HID!!!




Since you asked, I figured I should go do it.

I had a tough time holding battery, lens, and camera all in proper alignment, so pardon the poor pictures. The portable power source I had on hand only delivered 700mA. I tried to optimize the focus on the Microfire also.

Distance is about 80 ft.







Reaching out and touching a tree more than a block away:






Sky shot:


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## Outdoors Fanatic (Oct 30, 2006)

I'd like to see that agaisnt a 24W or bigger HID. I don't think an LED will ever beat a HID light when it comes to throw. Not even high powered incans can...


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## cryhavok (Oct 30, 2006)

holy crap does that thing throw with the lens...wow!


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## daveman (Oct 30, 2006)

NewBie said:


> Reaching out and touching a tree more than a block away:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


:wow: To think that there are 3 more bins with more output than this one (Q1, Q2, Q3).


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## enLIGHTenment (Oct 30, 2006)

Holy hell.

That, dear readers, is a perfect example of why lenses should be the tool of choice for XR-E throwers.

Newbie: could we trouble you to grow a 5th hand and somehow measure the lux on that thing @1m?


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## lumapower (Oct 30, 2006)

Good job .
CREE XR-E ,great !! I pledged must use them on mine flashlight!!


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## FlashInThePan (Oct 30, 2006)

I've got a Cree XRE A19 in the mail. But where I do get me one of them fancy 2" aspheryical lenses?!

- FITP


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## 270winchester (Oct 30, 2006)

Newbie, that's some beamshots!!! Thank you!!!


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## Martini (Oct 30, 2006)

You must've made that poor LED think it was a laser. All I can say is wow.

So now I'm not only less keen on Lux lights, but I'm now disinterested in HID. Great.


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## NewBie (Oct 30, 2006)

With the aspherical lens, about 37,000 lux @ 1 meter, with meter set for tungsten/daylight.

I take it a number of the newer folks around here have not seen my aspherical lens before? The drawback is throw with no flood.


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## Loomy (Oct 30, 2006)

NewBie said:


> I take it a number of the newer folks around here have not seen my aspherical lens before? The drawback is throw with no flood.



How about a picture of it!


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## NewBie (Oct 30, 2006)

Loomy said:


> How about a picture of it!



Here is an old picture of it that I took around November 2004:


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## Calina (Oct 30, 2006)

NewBie said:


> Here is an old picture of it that I took around November 2004:


 
Holy, holy, 

What a beam! 

What's the focal of this lens? At what distance from the LED was it?
Was it in focus?


Thanks for the shots. Wow!!!


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## Concept (Oct 30, 2006)

This is all most impressive.


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## NightHiker (Oct 30, 2006)

That's incredible. That thing is blowing away the HID for throw. I think that we'll start to see more lights with optics with the crees, and when optimized optics come out for them, theyll just be unstoppable.


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## smokelaw1 (Oct 30, 2006)

I am absiltuely speechless. I have been a flashaholic for so long, and I only just found this place not too long ago. Now with the cree revolution, and what it means to the dflashlight world....and NEWBIE....those tests....that lens....I am dying over here. 

A cree light with some custom optics will be THE throw lights in the future, if those pictures mean anything. Then, a light with beam characteristics like the L4, then one with a SLIGHTLY stronger spot/throw, with the same spill....uh, man...I need more lights....when are these things going to be massproducred?


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## marxs (Oct 30, 2006)

holy #$*% that thing throws with the lens! if i hadnt known it was a cree i would have sworn this thread should have been in the HID/Spotlight section. how far was the tree in your beamshot? that is one killer photo!


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## WAVE_PARTICLE (Oct 30, 2006)

too bad aspherical lenses are quite pricey.....
I have a few in my camera lenses....but only in my most expensive ones.....  


Impressive beamshots though...... :thumbsup:

WP


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## Miciobigio (Oct 30, 2006)

NewBie said:


> I had a tough time holding battery, lens, and camera all in proper alignment, so pardon the poor pictures. The portable power source I had on hand only delivered 700mA. I tried to optimize the focus on the Microfire also.
> 
> Distance is about 80 ft.


 

 this is insane !!!!!!


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## enLIGHTenment (Oct 30, 2006)

WAVE_PARTICLE said:


> too bad aspherical lenses are quite pricey.....



They're not that bad. Edmund Optics has a 75mm aspheric for $50.


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## WAVE_PARTICLE (Oct 30, 2006)

enLIGHTenment said:


> They're not that bad. Edmund Optics has a 75mm aspheric for $50.


 
Interesting! Thanks for the link. Perhaps it's so expensive in camera lenses because of the higher tolerances and quality required by the photographic industry....

Maybe I should pickup a couple of these lenses...... :naughty: 

WP


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## matrixshaman (Oct 30, 2006)

WOW! Amazing! If you look at a Surefire E1L lens which turns that little light into a real thrower (for a Luxeon) I think a lens along those lines might be good for the Cree XR-E. If I had a Cree and the time I'd probably be trying a mod like that. Wonder how it would do with this lens:





Actually that is just one of those glass paperweights  but it might be interesting to try.


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## Robban (Oct 30, 2006)

How does a Luxeon III compare to the XR-E if paired up with that lense? Does it even come close?


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## SemiMan (Oct 30, 2006)

Very impressive shots Newbie!

When I look at the pictures of the XR-E, it looks like the phosphor is pretty uniform over the die and then some on the base of the chip mount. I would expect most of the light is coming from just the area of the die or is there a lot of light from around it?

I looked on the site and could not find any pictures with this lens and a Luxeon/K2? How does the beam angle compare?

I will have to post some pictures I have of a 1.5A K2 and a 5 degree aspheric. One of the things I like about the lack of spill is that with little light close to you, your night vision is not degraded and you can see that spot a long distance away.

Semiman


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## BentHeadTX (Oct 30, 2006)

A great idea, Newbie 
I was wondering what I would do with my LuxV Mag, now I know! Throw a Q3 bin XR-E on the hotlips, jack up the output to 1,000mA on the nFlex board and slap in one of those 75mm projector lens from Edmonds inside. 
Will it be useful? Well...no... but it would be a riot to light up things 200+ meters away. I can make the mod and send it back to my brother as a weapon light. Calculating off your curves, a Q3 will put out 155 lumens at 700mA and 190 lumens at 1,000mA. I think it will light up as far as my brother cares to shoot.


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## photo2000a (Oct 30, 2006)

blew my pants off, i gotta get me one


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## Esthan (Oct 30, 2006)

Newbie,

A lot of people will pay a lot of money to be able to do the same thing You did. Aren't You feeling guilty ? :]


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## paxxus (Oct 30, 2006)

The Microfire HID beamshot appears overexposed on all pictures in post #1. Is it possible to lower the exposure time even more in order to get a better head to head comparison?


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## Kiessling (Oct 30, 2006)

Exciting times indeed !!
What a freaky beamshot there!!  
bernie


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## leukos (Oct 30, 2006)

Nice shots, Newbie, though the effect may be that many of us will be underwhelmed when we get our first CREE light with a normal reflector.


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## easilyled (Oct 30, 2006)

Hmmm!

So would a 27mm aspherical lens from Edmunds fit in an Aleph1-head
with a Cree XR-E light-engine?

Aleph-1s have always been renowned for their throw - this would put
a different complexion on things completely.

Wouldn't that be nice for all the owners of a Ti-Aleph1 light?

Someone - do this mod for me.
:bow: (begging)


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## taiji (Oct 30, 2006)

lumapower said:


> Good job .
> CREE XR-E ,great !! I pledged must use them on mine flashlight!!




well , how about it? I have ordered a DX-1 but I can wait for a CREE powered version.

Thank you Newbie for sharing.


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## Spordin (Oct 30, 2006)

What do y'all think this will do for the 1-cell market, and (just curious) how would a single alkaline AA or AAA handle the cree?


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## Chronos (Oct 30, 2006)

OK, this has to be one of the most exciting posts I've read in a long, long time. To see the cree put out such an incredible amount of light via a reflector and via the lens... I'm speechless. 

Wow. Wow. Wow.

Time for me to sell the HID and get someone to start installing crees in my lights!


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## havand (Oct 30, 2006)

Goodjob Newbie, thanks for those shots. Not the prettiest beam i've ever seen, but I think forgiveable considering you were doing a juggling act  Nice work. Pretty ridiculous. I'm just a little sad that my new favorite lights won't be able to use these. I like those lights. I like this. Why can't i have both things i like together in harmony? Maybe i should get them both accounts on e-harmony and see if they meet up.


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## metalhed (Oct 30, 2006)

Ok, I gotta ask.

How is the Cree putting out the 300 lumens (approximately) that the HID should be generating?

Or, to put it another way:

How does/would the Microfire beam look when the aspherical lens is used on it?


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## Freedom1955 (Oct 30, 2006)




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## boomboots (Oct 30, 2006)

easilyled said:


> Hmmm!
> 
> So would a 27mm aspherical lens from Edmunds fit in an Aleph1-head
> with a Cree XR-E light-engine?
> ...




Me also want to know exactly that


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## LEDninja (Oct 30, 2006)

Spordin said:


> What do y'all think this will do for the 1-cell market, and (just curious) how would a single alkaline AA or AAA handle the cree?


Let us guess.
L1P/L1T/L1S/Civictor produce roughly 30 lumens out the front driving the LED at 350mA.
At 350mA the Cree produces 80 lumens according to Newbie's chart.
I have seen posts on CPF claiming light transmission from 54% to 85% for various torches.
At 60% light transmission we get 48 lumens out the front
At 70% light transmission we get 56 lumens out the front
At 80% light transmission we get 64 lumens out the front
As Fenix uses AR coated lenses I expect light transmission to tend toward the high end. I'd guess 50-60 lumens, almost double the current brightness. Due to reflector size limitation I expect most of the extra light to show up in the spill light not the hotspot.

Fenix is getting 4 lumens for the E0 probably at Nichia's 'normal' rating of 20mA for the CS. At 20mA the Cree produces 6 lumens.
Arc is getting 7 lumens for the -P probably at Nichia's 'max continuous' rating of 30mA for the CS. At 30mA the Cree produces 8 lumens.
The improvement is not that great when one consider that the CS is 85 cent vs. many dollars for the Cree. It would be a lot cheaper for Fenix to feed the CS with 30 mA than to replace the CS with a Cree to go from 4 to 6 lumens.

There are many assumptions made so the results are still guesses. We will see when the new lights are introduced.

EDIT
Spordin check out this thread:
UltraFire with XR-E	
http://candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=138996


floscherl said:


> BTW, this little LED is bright
> Driven on 350mA and equal to my TXOJ on 700mA


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## :)> (Oct 30, 2006)

I would love to see the Cree behind a Kroma's lens or better yet a purpose built reflector for the Kroma and the Cree.

Whew!

-Goatee


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## Chronos (Oct 30, 2006)

Great minds think alike Goatee!


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## Nitroz (Oct 30, 2006)

Newbie,
The shot of the storage shed looks like the Cree is going to burn a whole thru it.

Does it look like that in person?


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## Mike Painter (Oct 30, 2006)

[email protected] Messenger said:


> Holy fishiasrasmfdslath, that's pretty bright!



Darn kids. In my day we knew how to spell fishai... fishiaras....fiz...

big words.


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## havand (Oct 30, 2006)

I hope they get warmer....Yes, it is a lot of light, but its so cool, it looks like a lot of the detail is lost to my eyes. Cool tints wash things out and i loose what i'm looking at for some reason.


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## Mike Painter (Oct 30, 2006)

Outdoors Fanatic said:


> I'd like to see that agaisnt a 24W or bigger HID. I don't think an LED will ever beat a HID light when it comes to throw. Not even high powered incans can...



The only advantage an HID has is that it is more of a point source than an incan or a LED.
A kerosine lantern flame is even less of a point source but with a reflector behind it and a fresnel lens in front of it can shine 20 miles.

LED technology is just starting and we are just seeing commercial results which are starting to get efficent. "Nanohole" technology will allow far brighter lights at the same wattage and it looks like there is a *lot* of work going into developing a way to form these holes.

Today's LEDs are still Z-80's (That's for the old guys, a hot Z-80 CPU ran at 6 or 7 Mhz)


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## x2x3x2 (Oct 30, 2006)

Someone should make an XR-E torch with a "turbohead" style bezel with that 2" lens!
not pocketable, but it gonna kick *** for "tactical" puposes, it'll probably blind people in daylight and imagine what output u get if overdriving at 1.5A!  hell u could even use it as a fully functional spot light!


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## nemul (Oct 30, 2006)

awesome!


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## IsaacHayes (Oct 30, 2006)

The lens throws very far, but as Jar pointed out, there is no sidespill. So remeber how nice a lux3 mag reflector light throws, but yet you still have spill to see the ground by your feet as you walk/etc. The lens would not have this, so it's a PURELY speciality light, spotlight only. Still though, it's so impressive. It would be cool to have it mounted on a realtivy small body light, who cares about runtime, as it's just be used for peaking over to the next state!

Jar, I forget, what was the focal length on that? Does the led have to be very far back? And would it fit in a mag lite head? The C's are a bit deeper in the head, so I imagine it would have the best chance of fitting behind the lens in a C head. The led I have no idea where it would have to be, probably back into the body tube? I do have flat 1/4" aluminum heatsinks that would work for that....


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## Mike Painter (Oct 30, 2006)

Here's an interesting concept.
Imagine a light using Crees with a built on lens in a package slightly larger than the LED. How many could you put in a 3D Mag.
The  Home page has more goodies.
I found this while looking for the Tekna lights which use a fresnel lens.
Some of their products have the four C in a 2x2 arrangement that I like a lot.

(Any divers ever use a Tekna regulator? Very interesting story behind it. PM and I'll post something in a more appropriate spot.)


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## postalguy (Oct 30, 2006)

That's it. I'm not buying anymore flashlights unless it uses the Cree


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## beezaur (Oct 30, 2006)

IsaacHayes said:


> but yet you still have spill to see the ground by your feet as you walk/etc. The lens would not have this, so it's a PURELY speciality light, spotlight only. . . .



Is that necessarily so?

What would prevent you from adjusting the lens in and out of focus, like a classic MagLite?

Scott


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## daveman (Oct 30, 2006)

beezaur said:


> Is that necessarily so?
> 
> What would prevent you from adjusting the lens in and out of focus, like a classic MagLite?
> 
> Scott


That would be the next-next stage for Cree lights, adjustable lense.


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## Lit Up (Oct 31, 2006)

Just looking at the hotspot on this PC makes my eyes squint a bit.
Damn, I can't wait!


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## NewBie (Oct 31, 2006)

WAVE_PARTICLE said:


> too bad aspherical lenses are quite pricey.....
> I have a few in my camera lenses....but only in my most expensive ones.....
> 
> 
> ...




Search the surplus houses, very large high quality glass lenses (coated even) can be had for 2 to 3 dollars. Typically, something like this is found in projectors for screens, like you'd find on an old projection TV.


No, the Lux V doesn't even come close. Roughly the same lumens are emitted from an area that is four times large, and thus is 1/4 the intensity. The Lux III is also less intense (less lumens by far), so it doesn't throw as well with the aspherical lens either.


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## slarty bartfast (Oct 31, 2006)

Some cheap aspheric lenses on ebay http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=280043094760&ssPageName=ADME:B:EOIBSA:AU:11and http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=280043094287&ssPageName=ADME:B:EOIBSA:AU:11


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## Robban (Oct 31, 2006)

slarty bartfast said:


> Some cheap aspheric lenses on ebay http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=280043094760&ssPageName=ADME:B:EOIBSA:AU:11and http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=280043094287&ssPageName=ADME:B:EOIBSA:AU:11


I see I'm not the only one who instinctively went to Ebay  Found those last night and snagged one. No idea if it'll actually do me any good but it could be fun to mess around with (and for that price it's not like I'm breaking the bank  ).


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## Szemhazai (Oct 31, 2006)

The XR-E spot looks a bit strange didn't it ? It’s almost square... 

Today i get my xr-e's from cutter and test it @350ma with many different optics... One looks almost like this asferical used by Newbie but it costs 2$ and it is 10 time's smaller  .

You can see what I get :




Spot is square 28x30 cm distance from source 2,5 meter. If you will look closely at the chip you will recognize that shape


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## CaLux (Oct 31, 2006)

Szemhazai said:


> The XR-E spot looks a bit strange didn't it ? It’s almost square...
> Spot is square 28x30 cm distance from source 2,5 meter. If you will look closely at the chip you will recognize that shape



Did you use a Optics or reflector to make that square ?


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## leukos (Oct 31, 2006)

NewBie said:


> Sky shot:


 

Newbie, your beam shots remind me of some laser like shots from this thread: http://candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=128729 and this one: http://candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=92396&highlight=AN%2FVSS-3


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## Szemhazai (Oct 31, 2006)

CaLux said:


> Did you use a Optics or reflector to make that square ?



Optics - sory i missed that picture it's 10* :


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## CaLux (Oct 31, 2006)

Szemhazai, thank you for info
If any possible, we can see the compare with the same light behind the reflector ?


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## NewBie (Oct 31, 2006)

LEDninja said:


> Let us guess.
> At 350mA the Cree produces 80 lumens according to Newbie's chart.
> I have seen posts on CPF claiming light transmission from 54% to 85% for various torches.
> At 60% light transmission we get 48 lumens out the front
> ...



What in the world makes you think ARC is only driving the LED at 30mA?
I'm measuring 65mA into the LED itself on an ARC AA. That is 2.15 lumens for every 20mA.

What made you thing that the Fenix E0 drove the LED at 20mA? 
I just measured 28mA into the LED itself. That is 2.86 lumens for every 20mA.


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## AndyTiedye (Nov 1, 2006)

I want one for my bike!


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## IsaacHayes (Nov 1, 2006)

Szemhazai, what optic/brand is that? Is it made for the cree? It's defiantly not a pretty beam but it must throw if it shows the die image like that!

Looking on ebay, it seems a 47mm lens has a focal length of 50mm, which is quite far away. A 30mm one is only like 15mm focal length, which would be much easier to work with in a torch, but the beam would not be as tight... hmmmm


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## myk (Nov 1, 2006)

I'm wondering what a 27mm aspheric would do in one of H22's minimag BHC's (which uses the MCR-27L reflector) on a minimag LED 3aa modded to with a cree? =)

cuz i'll be damned, but I bet I could just drop it right in where the current 2mm thick (same thickness at the edge of this lense) 27.1mm glass lense is now, since the 23mm of the actual bubble would fit right through the bezel

if only they werent out of stock...


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## IsaacHayes (Nov 1, 2006)

myk: but did you take into account the focal length of the optic? That can add a lot of length to the setup..


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## myk (Nov 1, 2006)

IsaacHayes said:


> myk: but did you take into account the focal length of the optic? That can add a lot of length to the setup..


 
the focal length of the optic is 13mm- which is from part way through the dome of the lense to the light source - and according to the specs the back focal length (from the bottom of the lense to the led) is 6.9 mm - which is actually much less than the 27.24mm height of the mcr27L

so i'm not sure how that would work exactly =) but it wouldn't be adding more than the inch bulge out the front of the head


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## McGizmo (Nov 2, 2006)

For a down and dirty comparison, below is a beam shot of an Aleph 3 (luxIII of unknown bin) with a beam shot of a XR-E driven behind a 1" half ball (acrylic) lens that is not placed in sharp focus but adjusted for max lux reading (4600).







The "lens" is the bottom image and you can see there is spill by virtue of light bouncing off the Al housing behind the lens and out. This set up is certainly inefficient in terms of getting out all of the light but for a small OD head, the lux is respectable.


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## slarty bartfast (Nov 2, 2006)

IsaacHayes said:


> Looking on ebay, it seems a 47mm lens has a focal length of 50mm, which is quite far away. A 30mm one is only like 15mm focal length, which would be much easier to work with in a torch, but the beam would not be as tight... hmmmm


 
I was thinking about that as well and wanted to play around with the 30mm one on an XR-E and the 47mm one on a 20W edipower star.


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## NewBie (Nov 5, 2006)

Here is another comparision of an aspherical lens vs. the HD45.

I defocused the lens to provide a lit up area. Sorry about the missing bite in the beamshot, thats my finger, I'm trying to take photos, hold the lens in alignment and also hold the LED. I defocused one way, and then the other way:

















An outdoor shot of the CREE and throw possibilites, lighting up a beige house:


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## nutz_about_lights (Nov 5, 2006)

Holy cow.... That's 245m! And the spot is still visible.... :goodjob:


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## zelda (Nov 5, 2006)

I made also good experience with lens:

http://candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=90547

(The Lux III i used was an SX0H .) The color throuh a lens change to sligtly warmer. The angle beam is less then I wrote, it goes down to ~1-2°.

You can just find this type of lens in old Diaprojectors. 

Zelda


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## vic303 (Nov 5, 2006)

Just wow! Hey Newbie can you post a pic of the CREE light itself? My DH has been asking how physically large the light is, that is putting out such and awesome beam!


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## Archangel (Nov 5, 2006)

(grin) I like the stop sign. Except for the color, you'd think it was one of those small street lamps.


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## srvctec (Nov 5, 2006)

Archangel said:


> (grin) I like the stop sign. Except for the color, you'd think it was one of those small street lamps.



At first, I thought the stop sign reflecting back was the actual spot on the house!! Glad you mentioned it. It's still a really impressive beam shot for that distance for an LED. 

WOW. Just *WOW!!*


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## Toons (Nov 5, 2006)

:thumbsup: NewBie! 
You da' man!!! :bow:

Must go take cold shower now.
Thanks.... I think 
Toons


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## NewBie (Nov 5, 2006)

srvctec said:


> At first, I thought the stop sign reflecting back was the actual spot on the house!! Glad you mentioned it. It's still a really impressive beam shot for that distance for an LED.
> 
> WOW. Just *WOW!!*



Yeah, that beige house isn't very reflective, unfortunately. I wonder if they'd consider letting me paint a target on the side of their house at the very least...


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## CM (Nov 5, 2006)

NewBie said:


> Since you asked, I figured I should go do it.
> 
> I had a tough time holding battery, lens, and camera all in proper alignment, so pardon the poor pictures. The portable power source I had on hand only delivered 700mA. I tried to optimize the focus on the Microfire also.
> 
> Distance is about 80 ft.



I just had to bump this picture again. Unbelievable!


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## AndyTiedye (Nov 5, 2006)

So WHY am I hauling that big, heavy HID lighting system around on my ultra-light
carbon fiber bicycle again?


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## NewBie (Nov 5, 2006)

AndyTiedye said:


> So WHY am I hauling that big, heavy HID lighting system around on my ultra-light carbon fiber bicycle again?



Muscle building exercise.


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## Luna (Nov 6, 2006)

AndyTiedye said:


> So WHY am I hauling that big, heavy HID lighting system around on my ultra-light
> carbon fiber bicycle again?



I'm guessing because you really want to see the road. Notice the lack of spill. 

You can simulate the same result by putting a magnifying glass about a foot in front of a light and see what is happening.


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## Archangel (Nov 6, 2006)

What he said. A reflector versus a huge optic is hardly a fair test for throw.


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## NewBie (Nov 7, 2006)

Actually, the Microfire reflector is much larger than the aspherical lens.


I found an old spectral graph of the Microfire HID Warrior light:


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## Justintoxicated (Nov 7, 2006)

Jar,
So in your opinion is the new Cree nearly as efficient or more efficient than a HID in terms of output?


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## NewBie (Nov 8, 2006)

Once you include ballast losses, even the Philips Luxeons beat the lower wattage HIDs for efficiency. 

So, obviously yes.

But you don't have the spot intensity of HID yet, if you just want throw only.

We still need to hold the LED's 80lm/W, and crank up the power further, or raise the efficiency more, which folks already have in the works, quite a number of ways to do this already.

If you don't need a pencil beam that throws for miles, then these LEDs will easily exceed the lower wattage HID. The bulb itself is roughly 45-50lm/W, and their ballasts are 70% efficient.
http://www.lamptech.co.uk/Spec Sheets/WelchAllyn MR11 10W.htm
http://www.walamp.com/lpd/files/datasheets/ISL305B2.pdf

Once you drop in the ballast efficiency, you are looking at 31.5 - 35lm/W.
Run it for 350 hours, and kiss another 15% goodbye, and you are left holding 26.7 - 28.9 lm/W


Jump up to the 21W unit, and you get 68 lm/W for the bulb. Subtract the 75% efficient ballast(25% losses), and you are left with 51 lm/W. In just 20 hours or so you loose 12%, and that leaves you with 44.88 lm/W.
http://www.walamp.com/lpd/files/datasheets/ISL290b.PDF
http://www.walamp.com/lpd/files/datasheets/LSL013e.PDF

Once you start moving up to 35, 50, things look better, and above 100W you start finding really efficient ballasts.

Every light source has it's advantages and disadvantages.

As far as whether the CREE is more efficient, it depends on exactly what you are comparing it to.


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## AilSnail (Nov 19, 2006)

the welch 10w hid has a really nice color imo. nice to see the spectral graph newbie.


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## crouchingrooster (Nov 19, 2006)

somebody pm me and tell me where i can get the cree xre please......


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## Grumpy (Nov 19, 2006)

What would happen if more than one cree emitter was placed under that aspherical lens?
Could it focus more than one at a time? 
What would happen if you had more than one emitter angled where it was shining on the same spot on the aspherical lens?

Could more than one emitter be mounted behind the aspherical lens shining away from it and then reflected back to the center of the lens?

I don't know how these lenses work but it would be nice to be able to use multiple emitters with one aspherical lens.


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## Stuart B (Nov 19, 2006)

Grumpy said:


> What would happen if more than one cree emitter was placed under that aspherical lens?
> Could it focus more than one at a time?
> What would happen if you had more than one emitter angled where it was shining on the same spot on the aspherical lens?
> 
> ...



I was wondering that too. I have soome XR-Es and a couple of different size aspherics on the way....I'll give it a try.

Stu


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## Flea Bag (Nov 19, 2006)

CM said:


> I just had to bump this picture again. Unbelievable!



There seems to be some lens flair visible around Cree's hotspot on that white shiny metal shed. Is the reflection from the Cree directly bouncing back at the camera lens?

I'm not doubting the brightness of the Cree (that's around 250 lumens?) but the picture just looks wierd!


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## AilSnail (Nov 19, 2006)

To collimate, all the light that hits a given point on the aspherical inner surface has to come from the same direction. So you can't really use several LED's, without extra optical elements.


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## AilSnail (Nov 19, 2006)

oops


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