# AWR Hotdriver Regulated M6 Battery Pack



## andrewwynn (Apr 10, 2006)

The prototype is operational.. 






Here's a picture. 

The rest of the album is here

The sales thread is now open here

A step at a time.. i only made it voltage regulate to 6.8V for starters because it is a bit tedious to get the current limiting working, but voila! it works just as designed!

Some bad news.. the space is exttreeeeemly tight.. i have to find out the length on the cells i'm going to procure but it might mean i can't do the swappable driver board.. i think that adds 1.8mm and that just won't fit.. I do have a backup plan to get another 1-2mm.. if it didn't bother you that the tailcap would not be screwed on as far (still both o-rings would seal and you would not see them, but when 'locked out' you would likely see the o-ring groove. 

I have to work on other stuff for a bit, but expect to get the current limiting (so you can swap between HOLA and LOLA w/o changing settings).. 

So i need to get some feedback for demand, also interest for the swappable battery pack (one driver, two packs, etc), so please take the poll.. pricing will depend a little bit on demand.. need some quantity discount for the metal machine work. 

The pack will run the HOLA lamp for about 35 minutes, God only knows how long on the LOLA..... long.

Oh.. some might not like this.. but the button is FAR easier to operate.. you can have it near 'lockout' and it still takes a good throw and decent effort to turn on, but if you have it nearly locked on.. feather touch will turn on the lamp. 

-awr


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## brightnorm (Apr 11, 2006)

Andrew,

I had hoped to get an extra tailcap but Surefire keeps repeating "4-6 weeks" every four to six weeks. I would still be interested as long as the tailcap mod is *easily* reversible.

Also, will the production pack be wrapped, sealed and beta-tested?

Brightnorm


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## petrev (Apr 11, 2006)

Hi Andrew

Brilliant to see the first prototype already.

Can't work out your assembly/wiring if the centre bar is solid all the way through ?

Patented slip contact - BodyNeg (and head outer ring ?)
Batt Pos at tail copper disk

Then ? ? ? 
Body/Batt Neg in via tail switch to centre rod ? 
and
Bulb Pos out at head from centre rod ?

Hmmm - I'm missing something - but looks awesome and it fits, and more to the point, it works 

Brilliantly Done

Ta Pete


Edit 
ps. Looked at the photos further . . . 

Is this it ? centre rod - Bulb pos
and
Little white wire - switched neg in from tailcap (somehow) ?

or am I still missing something - Cheers Pete


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## wquiles (Apr 11, 2006)

Good job Andrew !!!

Have you received my M6 in the mail already?

Will


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## nuggett (Apr 11, 2006)

Swappable driver is not that important to me, I would rather the cap fit well.
I have an M6 and use it all the time, cant wait for this amazing pack!
So the cap button is touchy? It can be locked out, correct? But when unlocked, its a hair trigger?


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## elnino (Apr 11, 2006)

Andrew, I am very interested in your regulated HDM6. My preference is for the swappable battery pack. And I would not like to have to modify my existing tailcap, so I will need one of yours.


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## CM (Apr 11, 2006)

6.8V? Seems a bit low, though I haven't tested the stock pack voltage under load. Have you compared output to high quality, fresh CR123's? 

Paypal locked and loaded.


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## cnjl3 (Apr 11, 2006)

I am definitely interested in your M6 solution. I have an M6 which is collecting dust and I sure would like to use it more often. I remember you said that it would be producing about 600 lumens. i would prefer a switchable battery pack and i will buy one of your tail cap assembly-is your tail cap modification the same as wquiles?


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## WAVE_PARTICLE (Apr 11, 2006)

I'm in..... :huh:


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## brightnorm (Apr 11, 2006)

elnino said:


> ...And I would not like to have to modify my existing tailcap, so I will need one of yours.


 
Andrew,

I didn't realize you had extra tailcaps. In that case, after you have established the reliability and safety of this mod, I'm in. 

Brightnorm


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## nethiker (Apr 11, 2006)

Hi Andrew,

I'm certainly interested. 

As soon as I have my Nano I will look forward to your next project, but not before.


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## andrewwynn (Apr 11, 2006)

brightnorm.. it will take only seconds to swap the tail cup out of a stock tailcap in-fact i just added a feature to make it even easier (since though it's easy to pull out the stock one.. the new one was reaaaally hard to pull out.. nothing to grab onto!).. glad i had that prototype made.. talk about doding a bullet! 

Yes the production packs will be shrink-wrapped and since it'll take about an extra month to get the metal part you'll need the packs will have about an extra month so i'll be able to get some serious testing (besides the first prototype and a couple more that will be made from the rougher hand-modified version). 

Petrev, the center bar is a solid rod, it is the Lamp+ conducftor.. to convert the hotdriver to work in the M6, the ground path for the lamp is cut (trace on the pcb) and the FET is moved out of the way a little bit.. then only the lamp+ remains in the center, the rod conducts power to the lamp. 

The slip-contact is the ground.. i think you assumed that the batteries are + in, they are negative in. 

The copper disk against the PCB is Bat+.. there is a contact pad on the back of the PCB that makes contact with the copper disk (the insulation on the copper disk is cut in one spot to make contact). 

The 'little white wire' is just the 'makeshift' solution.. it would be a spring contact similar to the ground path contact. 

How it works: the battery pack is grounded all the time to the body with the sliding contact. The pack fits tight against the tailcup, which will act as a heat sink for the FET since it actually touches. (i cheated on the prototype to use that hair wire to also make the ground contact for the tailcup).. The tailcup only makes contact with the body when the button is pressed or the tailcap is screwed on. 

The bulb spring is actually what makes it work.. the battery pack moves a mm or so with the tailcap.. just like with the original stock M6 (the battery pack floats between two springs and moves in /out just a bit while you are working the tailcap.. i might have room for an actual spring on the back depending on the final arangment (if i can get the extra space to make the driver swappable). 

Wquiles.. that *is* your M6 in the pictures! check your email. 

nugget.. best of all worlds.

1) absoutely the LOTC works as it's supposed to
2) only 'touchy' if you decide you want it. 

Basiccally it has 4 modes:

1) locked out
2) normal operation.. long press of the button.. maybe 1/2 the old force
3) hair-trigger.. where the tailcup is almost touching.. takes so little force to turn on that setting down on a table will cause a 'blink'. 
4) Locked on. 

elnino.. i'm going to sell the pack with the tailcup exclusively.. the only advantage for somebody to modify their own tailcup would be they could maybe get their pack a month earlier. 

CM.. 6.8 was an arbitrary test voltage.. i'm pretty sure that's what is the recommended dose for the HOLA lamp, and what JS uses for his M6-R.. not my lamp, no intentions of blowing it up... that is the voltage for the HOLA, not the LOLA.. the setting will be more like 7.2 for the LOLA which .. yes it could be brighter that is the 'average' voltage from what i understand but i'm using a 7.2V pack so that's what i got.. it'll be a hellova lot brighter than running it at 6.8 if i were to use strictly voltage limiting. 

The reality is.. that the voltage won't be limited on the HOLA if phase 2 goes properly.. the plan is to make it regulate to current for the HOLA at about 4.9A.. the voltage will just work itself out to about 6.8-6.9V.. and regulate to voltage to 7.2V when the LOLA is installed... completely automatic. 

The output will kick the snot out of CR123s. It might look 'about the same' for 0-minute-old CR123s.. it will blow away 1 minute old 123s. 

I might be convinced to make an 'extra hot' version for people willing to trade bulb life for brightness.. but it's not really worth it.. the light will be brighter than you've ever seen it with this pack compared to toss away cells. 

LOL cnjl3.. wquiles made his tailcap from my computer model of the one i will be having machined.

There is a very small chance that i can't get away with constant current limiting, the o-scope will reveal all.. but the testing earlier was very positive that it will work out just fine.. if i can't make it work at both 7.2V and 6.8V automatically.. i have two options.. 

1) scrap LOLA operation and just set up for the HOLA. (or i would of course make one for just LOLA for somebody that only used LOLA.. they can always put the MB20 back in to run the HOLA. 
2) put in a switch to change between HOLA and LOLA.. but that's a bit risky.. left on the LOLA setting it will most certainly blow a HOLA. 

Updates through the week.. might not be able to get to the next step for a few days. 

-awr


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## petrev (Apr 11, 2006)

Hi Andrew 

Yes - mostly as per my PS. now that I see the FET is taller than the centre rod it all makes sense ( that was what had me confused - Honest)

Great Work

Pete


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## LuxLuthor (Apr 11, 2006)

*QUOTE=brightnorm Andrew,*

*I had hoped to get an extra tailcap but Surefire keeps repeating "4-6 weeks" every four to six weeks. I would still be interested as long as the tailcap mod is easily reversible.*

*Also, will the production pack be wrapped, sealed and beta-tested?*

*Brightnorm /QUOTE*​Maybe I'm being too jaded, but if I look at it from SF's perspective, you have to assume SF is monitoring this thread, and thinking how it may impact their 123a sales...and how providing a flurry of M6 tailcaps will negatively impact their 123a sales. It ties in with the coincidence of no delivery date of MN-20 (60 min run time with 123a's) bulbs being available, and the recent hefty 123a price hike.


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## andrewwynn (Apr 11, 2006)

That goes a little too far into conspiracy theory.. it is quite amazing, however that the MN20 lights have been MIA for waaaay too long.. there is no valid reason for a corporation as big as SF to have such a delay on such a product. The only thing that i can think of that would be an acceptable excuse is if they are developing a more economical solution like a IRC bulb that would last longer. 

I personally think there is a 'status quo' situation going on more than anything with the M6.. if they can sell them and the batteires, and make $ at it, there is no motivational forces within to make them make the likes of the M6-R.. they SHOULD have from the onset. There is virtually ZERO benefit from using throw away batteries. 

LiON tech is easier and cheaper in every single way. It is NOT easier or cheaper or more reliable to have a bunch of batteries in the truck.. it would be far easier and far cheaper to have 2 or three of the likes of the HDM6 charged up and ready to go in the truck.. you'd have 6x the runtime available and not have to worry about changing cells all the time.. they stay charged for MONTHS, so big deal.. maintenence would be far less than swapping the cells.

Oh.. petrev.. the center rod wouldn't touch anything anyhow.. there is a hole up inside the tailcup in the center. 

-awr


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## CLHC (Apr 11, 2006)

Looking forward to it with keen anticipation! :huh:


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## andrewwynn (Apr 11, 2006)

keeps getting better and better.. i just read this from emilion's website: 



emilion said:


> Our test shows that the DLG 17500's capacity has reached 1260mah under 2A current draw.



So.. wow! we will only be pulling 1.63A so this bodes VERY well for the HDM6.. 
1260 means nearly a 3.8AH pack.. how often do cells deliver more than rated capacity? Now i wouln't go assuming your cells will pull more than rated, but some of the cells pulled from the pipeline going into this have.. this would net you about 45 minutes with HOLA! that is incredible! 

More good news.. the swappable board is a sure thing. I have 2mm to spare in the current design, which should give me enough room to use protected cells, and gobs of spare room to fit the unprotected cells... before 'going to press' i will of course get the final length of the protected cells.. i'm thinking.. that if can't fit the protected cells *and* the swappable pack.. i will have the option of having the raw cells with swappable driver or the fixed driver and protected cells. 

I will point out that the driver offers the protection against over discharge.. and as long as you recognize the cells are going bad by the loss of runtime and replace them before they go completely dead, you should not have a problem from using raw cells. 

I had to make a minor change in the design.. the ground sweep contact will be moved to the driver and there will be a solid rod going from the bottom 'neg' pad on the bottom.. turns out that only disconnecting the driver ground interferes with the low-voltage cutout.. bummer that i need to have that extra wire but i had expected to use that extra wire to run power up from the inside when i had the batteries positive in. It will be a 10ga solid copper wire so there will be absolutely negligable loss.. that works out to about 0.3mohm of resistance. 

So.. disaster aveted... when i put in the low-voltage ckt and it disabled the startup i was not too happy.. i hate hiccups like that! (the light would run just fine if i turned it on before putting into the lamp.. but if i switched the ground off and on it wouldn't light up... aaaaaahhhh!

That could have easily been a 2-3 week delay and i solved it in under 2 hrs... extremely good news. 

Also.. i like the idea of the sweeping contact being on the driver vs the pack (though i do have to solder a 10ga wire to the disc on the bottom of the pack).. that'll be the most tedius part of assembly. 

So.. 'game on'.. i'll get the prototype retrofitted to the new design within a couple of days.. once i get the go-ahead on the cells and know how long they are and that the'll fit.. i'll be ready to open up an orderline. 

"I love it when a plan comes together". 

The idea of using the lamp spring for the action just came to me as the space got so tight that there really wasn't an option.. i still was considering to put in a tailcap spring of some sort but this thing is working flawlessly without any spring in the back. 

The plan is to make the hole in the tailcup the right size that should you need to use the MB20 you can just put in a replacement spring that is a bit longer than stock.. i will source some of said springs.. i have some really nice silver coated springs i get for a buck from sandwich shoppe that should be perfect. i just need to machine a nice groove that they will snap into into the tailcup... so for 'backup' use keep the MB20 and that spring taped to it in your glovebox or whatever.. you won't have to swap out the part just to use primary cells.

Here is where the 'really decent guy' of me comes in.. the PIR is a lot thicker than the hotdriver.. it would be exceptionally easy to make that replacement part too short to be of any use with somebody wanting to use the PIR in an M6, but i'm taking into consideration how i would be able to use the PIR in an M6.. I would probably have to cut a hole in the positive copper disc to put that tall part on the non-FET side and almost certainly will have to replace the FET with a D2PAK, other than that i's just a matter of figuring out how to wire it up.. and i think petrev already figured it out.. very similar to the HDM6, just reversed the + and - are opposite since on PIR the FET is 'downstream' of the lamp. 

So.. that's good news for PIR guys as well. I promised i'd be kind when it came to helping get PIR into an M6... it won't make it a 'cake walk'.. w/o re-doing the PIR it will be tricky to get the battery pack solution.. it really need a 2.6mm hole in the dead-center and a 6mm clearing around the hole for a nut on at least one side. Some clever moving of the FET (copy the hotdriver) and it's definitely doable! 

Off to the lab.. nano switch day today. 

-awr


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## Geologist (Apr 11, 2006)

As far as the SF conspiracy theory - one must also consider that there are many of ethusiasts who have *NOT* bought a M6 due to the battery issue and not having an easy way to make it rechargable (most of my SF's are using rechargables). Plus it is not like Andrew is going to be producing these packs in any quanity that SF would even care about.

In regards to SF bulb availability - remember there is a war going on!

Finally Andrew I am very interested in this project of yours. I hope it becomes possible to design it so that the circuit can be used with battery packs to control costs. Once you have an inventory of these packs, I will buy my M6 and your battery pack. Good luck!


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## andrewwynn (Apr 11, 2006)

great point about where those MN20s likely are! 

My pack requires an M6.. if i make 10,000 of them, SF should be happy as hell to sell 10,000 M6s.. they can't loose.. just like the BAM!.. needs a Maglite host.. mag has nothing to lose. 

Not to worry.. looks like i solved the issue of swapping the driver board... it's really clever too i can't wait to get it operational with the swappable model. 

It is 0.7mm taller to have the swappable version.. and i have 2mm to spare with raw cells with the current design.. so if the protected cells are less than 0.65mm taller each i'm good to go with either protc. or raw cells. 

-awr


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## Thiokol (Apr 11, 2006)

Please count me in for at least 2 . I prefer to make my tailcups, especially if it means receiving them faster .

This is gonna be fantastic !!!

Thanks.


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## jdriller (Apr 11, 2006)

I'm in


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## dizzy (Apr 11, 2006)

I am "in" as well. Thanks for all your hard work.


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## andrewwynn (Apr 11, 2006)

I can probably make a deal to sell w/o tailcup, but probably not really at a reduced cost.. the quantity is key to get the price reasonable for everybody, kind of like insurance, however i can show you the specs to lathe your own to save some time, definitely a few weeks. 

The testing went very well for the current-limiting startup, very cool news, and i figured out a better way to install the pack, so that there are back to 'look ma, no wires'.. and even another benefit.. since the driver will now be on the inside near the head, it means that it's more protected and also that the lamp current no longer runs through the center rod (less power lost on that rod). 

I haven't gotten the length spec for the prot. cells yet, and i have to fine-tune the current limiting for the MN21.. i was just doing testing so far with 1111 and 1185, those are indestructible at 7.2V. 

-awr


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## CM (Apr 11, 2006)

I like everything that I've heard thus far. Been a while since I've been hyped up over a mod


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## andrewwynn (Apr 11, 2006)

well i can tell you that it sure made the M6 'fun'.. peopole will sure use them a lot more when they cost $3/hr vs $33/hr to operate.. guilt-free photons. 

-awr


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## Lightraven (Apr 12, 2006)

I'll give Surefire this--they have historically designed their products around their target market, the military and law enforcement. They don't generally compromise for other customers, though I have seen some loosening up with the clicky tailcap issue.

There are many valid reasons within the military, and to a lesser extent, law enforcement to keep things simple with standard disposable batteries. Low cost and reusing/recycling things away have never been priorities for the military! And SteveC (CPFer) a cop who worked the New Orleans area after the hurricane said rechargeable lights, like the Stinger, worked exactly once and then never again, since power was not available to recharge the batteries. Granted, this was a rare event, but it is the rare events that we prepare for. Having your Stinger die (with no backup light) on the side of a mountain is a right of passage in my agency. 

I think rechargeable packs for the M6 are a great idea and it's why I got my M6-R. I don't see Surefire as trying to make a huge profit on an off-the-wall commodity like camera batteries. I just see them as having only limited interest in the much larger general consumer market. I mean, this company makes combat knives, rifle suppressors, rifle forends, lasers, weaponlights and offers tactical training to LEOs only.


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## andrewwynn (Apr 12, 2006)

In my version of 'the right way to do things'.. you would have a charging station in your truck.. even in the katrina event.. people had vehicles.. hell if you really needed a charge you could pull a battery out of a flooded car.. i'm sure plenty would have worked. I just don't buy into the concept of that somehow it's easier to procure 100s and 1000s of batteries than plug in a charger.. consdering that in the military.. hummers are everywhere! had they gone the rechargeable route.. put a button on to find out the current charge state of the battery.. and those cells would be like tic-tacs.. people could each have two packs and they would be completely interchangeable.. a very good case of inefficient use of resources.. the only case for throwaway batteries is where a light has little use. If a soldier only uses an M6 1 minute/day.. he should be using primary cells.

I have come to the conclusion that the lack of rechargeable pack for the M6 really was not much more than a simple planning decision where it was determined not worth the time and effort.. bottom line sort of thing.. it works exactly how they designed it, and have other bigger fish to fry so why re-invent it? 

Good for me, at least i hope so. 

-awr


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## Lightraven (Apr 12, 2006)

Andrew,

In a more perfect world, especially outside wasteful inefficient government bureaucracies, there would be little need for wasteful and environmentally harmful disposable batteries.

Here was my first semi-hypothetical scenario. CIA, Air Force forward air controllers and Green Berets are on the ground in Afghanistan in 12/2001. They are using Surefire M6 (rechargeable prototype) and Inova X5 flashlights with some IR lights for use with the goggles. They are living in a camp with the Northern Alliance and moving by horseback. They request resupply of flashlight batteries by a parachute drop.

Somewhere in Tajikistan, a supply sergeant has not kept the rechargeable M6 battery packs plugged into the wall and ready to go. He unplugged them for his TV, X-box, DVD player and boom box. Whoops. He isn't overly diligent. The C-5 is fueling on the tarmac and he doesn't have time, so he loads up a crate of CR123s and solves his immediate problem. Time for a beer from his mini refrigerator!

The guys in Afghanistan are happy because the 123s go in the Inova and the M6. Interoperability. Would be nice if the night vision goggles and satellite radio worked with them too, but you can't have everything.

Anyway, here's an example from my life. I go into the armory and request a Maxabeam spotlight. After some grumbling about what exactly I'm talking about, I point it out. The battery is sitting in the case, having never been charged. I recommend that some of these lights be kept charged and get a reply like, "Yeah, good idea. Somebody ought to do that." It never is. So, I run the battery charger to my cigarette lighter of my vehicle while I still have daylight. I smell burning plastic and pull the charging plug out. The plug has melted down. That Maxa now cannot be recharged in a vehicle until it gets a replacement plug. It never will.

Keeping equipment batteries charged gets a little harder the further you get from civilization. Since most people only have one charger, it makes charging multiple batteries a bit tricky, especially if you have to be somewhere else. Also, you have multiple pieces of equipment competing for the car battery--laptop computers, cell phone chargers. I have noticed that vehicles blow cigarette lighter fuses frequently when charging things.

These are esoteric concerns, perhaps, and can be dealt with in one way or another. After all, my walkie talkie battery is rechargeable. I'm not sure how the cops in New Orleans dealt with that.


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## andrewwynn (Apr 12, 2006)

all good stuff.. i'll have you note.. that literally at this very second i'm fine-tuning the tailcup on the HDM6 to accept a long spring that will let you use the MB20 as a backup in case of situations like you describe. I find it very curious that people have *no problem* dealing with keeping their cell phone charged.. 'defense rests'. :-D

back on topic.. so the test went extremely well for the current/voltage limit.. i'm going to have to fine-tune the low-voltage cutout solution for the HDM6.. since the shutdown voltage based on the 92% forumula shuts off the light about exactly at the running level of the HOLA.. it probably would work but it will give fits, so i'm working on a different solution using a bit of a patch that will let me dial in a shut down voltage.. the current tester works like this.. when the voltage drops to the shutdown voltage.. the light will dramatically dim.. like 80% drop in output.. like a 'brown out'. Unfortunately when it gets to that state it will still be drawing some considerable current, so it's not a 'hands free' solution.. you will want to turn off the light relatively soon after the light does into 'i'm done' mode.. 

There is a chance i'll get the chip from the BAM! on the vTwo of the hotdriver, not sure if there is time or space for it.. but it would let me set the shutdown voltage independent of operational voltage.. obviously it's nice, but the 92% rule works better most of the time.. it's far more complicated to deal with the extra setting, but for the HDM6 i will be definitely doing this since the two-bulb situation throws a wrinkle in the normal M.O. 

So.. anyhow.. the wires were too long on the bench to get things set exactly but i was able to absolutely do 'proof of concept'.. the thing works absoultely stunningly well! I was able to put the MN21 on and get about 5A and 6.8V to the lamp.. and with doing nothing other than changing to the MN20 lamp.. it bumped up to 7.2V and 2.5A. 

The MN21 soft-starts with a beautiful 's-curve' voltage ramp that takes about 300-400msec.. that might change a little bit when it's in the lamp and no 2' of wires.

I will be hand-tweaking each driver to run at an appropriate level for the MN21 and the MN20 will be as high as i can effectively set it.. 7.2V is drop dead gorgeous.. even if it's more in the middle of the output of the toss-away cells. 

You can expect to see a BST open in the next 3 days.


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## andrewwynn (Apr 14, 2006)

OK.. got the chip worked into the design for low-voltage cutout.. i traded the space for the op-amp used for the high-temp cutout since it's a moot point with the M6 solution since the worst-case power dissipation is not high enough to cause a problem, and will install an incredible little chip for low-voltage setting.. it enables a deeper draw on the batteries, and you'll actually get to see dimming to know the batteries are going low before shutdown (probably not much of a warning,, maybe a minute, but it will be there!). 

The circuit board is final.. the 'vTwo' of the hotdriver. I will make a write up in BST either tonight or tomorrow opening up a pre-sale for the HDM6. I have the parts list close enough that i will be able to set the prices, and unless there is some big change in the cost of batteries, i don't expect any changes. 

It was reaaallly tricky to re-do the circuit board because i want to be able to use it in several possibilities:

1) totally basic.. only the 92% shutdown. 
3) basic, but with a configurable shutdown
2) high-temp and with the 92% shutdown
4) high-precision low-voltage shutdown (but no high-temp). 

using the exact same ckt board for all those posed a bunch of problems, especially since there are no standards of where the POWER should be, and though the op-amp and the low-volt chip are the same size and the ground and inputs share the same feet.. there is an extra foot on the low-volt chip and the Power and Output are BACKWARDS.. gee, thanks guys!

in any event i got it figured out.. i have to put a couple resistors on sideways but it's a very clever solution i love it. 

I will be able to get the boards ordered as soon as a few presales are taken in, and more importantly the machined part ordered.. fortunately since it will be 100% lathe operation, it will take only bout 25 working days vs 45 working days (typical for milling).. turnaround.. they will give me an estimated date as soon as i place the order. It will not take as long to get any of the other parts so i plan to have the packs done a week or more in advance of the metal parts so we can box up 10+/day when the metal part comes in.

I was playing with the prototype on the bench again today and it was just a thrill to go from the MN20 to the MN21 back and forth and watch it do its thing.. especially to watch the o-scope traces.. there can be little doubt the bulb life will be extended dramatically with the startup current being limited to 5A on the MN21! (nice to hear with $30 lamps!). 

Oh.. added bonus for vTwo of the driver.. besides the two dials to tweak the output voltage.. it will have a third to set the current output.. and one more really nice bonus.. a FUSE!. Well it turns out i needed a sense resistor.. and by sheer coincidence.. the 6.3A fuse is perfect.. and since the driver is limiting the output to 5.0A.. no real spike.. no need for a higher amperage fuse (which wouldn't work anyhow.. i need the resistance of the 6.3A fuse). 

The design of the battery pack encloses virtually all contacts that can be a problem.. i'm actually planning the meanest test possible on such a power pack.. rubbing steel wool on all open surfaces.. try that on a modamag or fivemega power pack.. yikes! (yes i know simple understanding would tell you NOT to do such a thing).. but i am honestly curious to figure out if i'm correct about my design being virtually short-proof. 

My other battery packs.. like FM and MM.. very short-prone.. considering that the center rod is + and the top and bottom both have grounded bolts.. it would fail that test instantly.. i've sparked some of my prototype packs installing them into the body (fortunately not remotely possible with my latest prototypes or my production packs).. however.. they still will have a charging jack on the back which can be shorted with something just the wrong shape and conductive. 

So.. once i get the sales thread online.. i will wait a few days to gather the *true* interest so i know how many metal parts to order, i don't want hundreds of paper weights that look like the inside of an M6!

Oh, just in-case anybody missed it or forgot.. anybody on JSs M6-R list can transfer to the HDM6 list and will retain their shipping order (it will be mostly a moot point.. i expect them all to ship within 1 week.. maybe 2 if sales are double my highest anticipation)... however as usual, i will ship in order of paypal date, even in the case of the paypal to JS.


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## wquiles (Apr 14, 2006)

Outstanding - thanks for the upodate Andrew 

How does it work with the MN20? What needs adjusted to switch from MN21 to MN20 and viceversa?

Will


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## andrewwynn (Apr 14, 2006)

Funny you should ask.. it is absolutely automatic.. you can take the head off, change lamps and put the head back on.. turn on the light.. blamo.. done. It's one of the best parts of this design, and it's a really cool twist of the fate of physics and battery chemistry how it works. 

Explanation: Since the batteries are notorious for dropping voltage as the current goes up.. if you want to get more POWER out of the batteries, it necessitates that the voltage will be lower and the current will be higher. 

So.. the brilliance of the setup with the hotdriver is this: 

It has two settings.. independent of each other.. CURRENT and VOLTAGE.. whichever hits first wins. 

So.. the HDM6 will be set up for about 4.95A max and about 7.3V max.. 

When you put in an MN20 lamp.. the voltage will go right up to 7.3V.. (and slowly decline as batteries die.. but it will stay at about 7.2V most of the battery life.. you will not see much dimming for the first 60-70 minutes.. estimated runtime is as much as 86 minutes with LOLA.. 

When you put in an MN21 lamp.. the voltage will attempt to get to 7.3V.. but when it gets to about 6.7-6.8V.. it will find that it's at 4.95A and stay right there. 

the startup is much faster with the LOLA but i'm still fine-tuning the startup solution with the HDM6. 

I had to invent a different solution for shutdown and have the circuit board design done, just need to triple check all the traces and it's a done deal! 

here are a few images from my last night allnighter fixing startup issues with hotdrivers: 






Here is the LOLA startup.. vFET vs vLamp 





Here is the LOLA startup.. vFET vs current..





Here is the HOLA startup curve.​
It's a bit tricky to read the current on the LOLA.. current starts very low and goes up and ends up being the top trace...it might seem like that's an excessive spike, but it's about 50% lower than w/o soft start, and probably about 1/4 to 1/6th the POWER spike.. because power is current x voltage.. and where the current spike is high, the voltage is very low... it's nearly ideal to start this way because it gives you a very rapid start while still bulb-saving. 

Since the driver didn't have enough voltage over head to run the HOLA properly (too many long wires on the bench.. i need to make some 14ga jumpers!).. I'm going to show you the osram 62138 startup curve:




You can see that the current limit is 'fuzzy'.. you can actually hear it.. there is an oscillation that happens at startup, probably having to do with the way that voltage coming in changes from the current demand difference.. you can hear a bit of a 'squeak' during that phase if you listen very close. 

It's absolutely nothing to worry about.. every hotdriver ever made has done this.. there were a couple version (mark6 comes to mind) that had an instability issue like newbie mentioned... mark 7 introduced a capacitor on the gate of the transistor that eliminated the instability, and it's worked awesome ever since. 

Even with the model that had the instability.. it could only be found one way.. by turning off the light, and then before it was done cooling off.. try to press the light back on.. about 1 out of 10 times you could get it to try to regulate at about 1/2 voltage.. of course.. with a mag85, it could probably do that for a minute or two before heat became an issue.. and it was a very unstable equilibrium and would last 5 seconds usually and turn on fully. 

I tried to let the mag138 just work its way out of the stuck position and it never did.. the FET got so hot it desoldered itself! that was the motivating issue i needed to fix it and born was mark7.. and what became the vOne hotdriver.

I've never seen a LOLA running before so i can't really compare. My understanding is that you'll get nearly 7.4V with fresh batteries and LOLA, so the hotdriver might be slightly dimmer, but the light was as white and brilliant as i could ever have expected of any light when running on the bench. (so far the LOLA tests were done from a driver that is outside the body).. but the lamp was inside the head, so i could aim the beam around and it was gorgeous! 

I hope i can sell a bunch of these, i think i just might buy an M6 now.. never in a million years would i have before a solution like Hotdriver M6. So much for profits on this project :-D

Oh.. i have a decision to make.. I can either keep the temp-sensor and use a big of a 'hack' to make low-voltage cutout work.. i still have to run down a set of batteries to see how it really behaves.. turning a dial on the power supply doesn't really behave how a battery does.. or i can kill the temp sensor and replace it with the really kickbutt low-volt sensor from the BAM! 

I will be doing testing of both possibilities and i've already designed the vTwo hotdriver board to accommodate either possibility. The power drop on the FET is insignificant at HALF of that with the 1274 solutions, so i'm confident it wont be a problem, totally a non-issue... other than ONE possible example.. use in extreme heat, like desert conditions.. so.. I'm leaning heavily toward making them all with the precision low-voltage and no high temp cutout.. since they will all be used in the same device unlike the standard hotdrivers which have myriad possibilities including one with runtimes well over an hour. 

If somebody needs high-temp because of climate, i can easily make a variation.. there might be some 'training' involving paying attention to the light running out.. with the hack.. the lamp will dim DRAMATICALLY but it will try to run at like 1/2 power.. putting a LOT of heat on the FET.. i still need to test the hack out in a real world test, so it might be a moot point.. the hack might work just about as good as the precision LV chip and i can keep the high-temp on all of them.

You won't have to decide when you order.. i will get a 'details' form after i make a batch of a few tester models that can be used for a good month while waiting for the machined parts and batteries and such to come in.. that way if there are any tweaks needed to be done, that can happen before the mass production, which will start about 3-4 weeks after the opening of the sale. (it should be about 5-6 weeks for the machined parts to get back). 

Thanks to wquiles for machining the tailcup prototype.. and lending me his cherished M6 for fitting the HDM6. I think that machining job might have been the first one he did 'for real' almost certainly. it came out amazing.. i needed to tweak a bit of it.. was too tight.. but that was perfect.. i got to be able to update my model for the full run! 

So.. 'game on'. .. get those paypal triggers ready.. i'm planning to get the pack back into the light by this weekend, and once the operation is confirmed, open up a sales thread on BST. 

-awr


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## wquiles (Apr 14, 2006)

Thanks Andrew - glad I was able to help a little 

Your project for the M6 is trully amazing 

Will


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## andrewwynn (Apr 15, 2006)

Here's the latest computer model of the HDM6.


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## petrev (Apr 15, 2006)

Hi

Great work - when do you get to sleep and eat . . . ?

Pic shows HD-reversed ref prototype photos !

Is that to do with interchangeability ?

Cheers Pete


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## andrewwynn (Apr 15, 2006)

yes, the 'upside down' hotdriver has two purposes.. (1) protects the chips and (2) allows the swapping of the board.. notice there are TWO nuts.. one holding the battery pack together and one holding the driver board on...oops maybe the FET is hiding the lower nut, sorry.. very observant though.. there is a (3) i guess also.. makes for a very simple ground contact since there is a nice ground pad on the back of the hotdriver. 

sometimes don't sleep or eat. 

-awr


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## andrewwynn (Apr 17, 2006)

Really cool update! 

so i think i mentioned finding the magic chip that would let me set the shutdown voltage appropriate for the batteries independent of lamp voltage, and i even amazingly enough figured out how to use the same exact pads as the opamp for the high-temp ckt, but that of course would have meant trading the option. 

Well.. today i figured out how to jamp pack a second op-amp onto the board, and am almost done with the PCB layout.. it will open up some really nice options for the normal hotdriver, but more importantly for this thread.. means i can have the custom low-volt shutdown *and* high-temp protection, as unlikely as that would be needed with the M6 solution.. if used in a high ambient temp environment, it's not all that unlikely.. and with a light like the top of the line M6... I say.. go for the gold. 

So.. very good news.. looks like i'm just about done with the RND and only a couple days behind schedule, i should have a BST up by monday night. 

Based on how much work it took to re-work the board to make both the high-temp and the custom low-volt work, and the obvious fact it takes more parts and resources to make, i might add $5 to my original estimated prices, they will still literally pay for themselves in FOUR CHARGES folks, how crazy is that? FOUR charges! (1.1 if you buy your cells at wallmart). Four charges did i say four charges? I guess that still just blows my mind! 

-awr

ps.. i'm leaning toward only selling fully protected packs initially using protected cells within.. mostly as a lower logistical nightmare issue.. but what i might do is that if testing goes well with the raw cells and the price difference is worth bothering.. i'd rebate the difference for people wishing to downgrade. I want to get the ball rolling as fast as possible with as much momentum as posible.. the latest calculations for the machining were an add'l week compared to the last time i did it.. so i want to get in the queue before they add on another week. 

-awr


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## andrewwynn (Apr 17, 2006)

OK.. the sales thread has opened HERE. Please keep conversation on this thread.

Time to take the 'real' poll. 

-awr


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## wquiles (Apr 17, 2006)

andrewwynn said:


> OK.. the sales thread has opened


Way to go Andrew :rock: 

Will


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## cnee (Apr 20, 2006)

Since the MN20 is so hard to come by these days, I am using the MN16 instead in my M6 when I don't need to use the HOLA. Would HDM6 work with the MN16?


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## wquiles (Apr 20, 2006)

cnee said:


> Since the MN20 is so hard to come by these days, I am using the MN16 instead in my M6 when I don't need to use the HOLA. Would HDM6 work with the MN16?


I just did a search and came up with a voltage of about 6.8-6.9 volts for the MN16 (while the MN20 runs at 7.2-7.3 volts). Since the HDM6 is setup to run the MN21 at 6.8 volts or so, it "should" work fine since the soft start would prevent any spikes from killing the MN16 at startup.

Andrew, what do you think?

Will


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## andrewwynn (Apr 22, 2006)

Oh i replied to this but the 'bit bucket' apparently ate the reply. 

if the MN16 runs about 6.8V the HDM6 would have to be configured differently.. actually.. it would be much easier to set up to pair MN16 and MN21 since then it can be straight voltage regulation. If the MN16s are available and output similar light to the MN20 i would set up anybody that wanted that setup instead of the standard setup for M6. 

If you tried to use the standard HDM6 setup with the MN16, it would likely blow the bulb, the voltage has to be turned down. 

The HDM6 is actually not set to run a particular voltage for the MN21.. it's set for amps for the MN21 and volts for the MN20... a magical little combination since the MN21 takes more current but runs at lower voltage.. an interesting anomaly from the norm.. since normally higher power lamps are higher current and higher voltage.. however when using the same battery source, the physics work out really nicely to have current limiting for the high power and voltage limiting for the low power.. badda bing. 


-awr


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## cnee (Apr 23, 2006)

Thanks for the explanations. I think I would still prefer to keep the standard MN20/MN21 setup, as using the MN16 is really temporary to me...


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## andrewwynn (Apr 23, 2006)

HDM6 will certainly be set up for MN20/MN21, the no-fuss swap is incredible.


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## andrewwynn (Apr 23, 2006)

Will just emailed me that the new tailcup required for the protected cells (prototype) is done.. three cheers for wquiles.. he has been very instrumental to bring this project to be.. making both the first and second generation tailcup, and also lending his M6 to the cause.. it really is his baby.. you should have seen how it was wrapped. 

I managed to blow the MN21.. not sure if i mentioned that.. be very careful if you decide to tweak the output of your HDM6.. (just like all hotdrivers.. there are pots to adjust the output)... when i was hooking up the test leads, i shorted vBat to vBulb.. the lamp lasted less than 1/20th of a second.. i guess it goes to prove you really can't run the MN21 from such a power plant w/o regulation. 

replacements were shipped friday, i should be able to get some beamshots online this week to show how the HOLA and LOLA compare to other lights like the Mag11, Mag85, M66, and just to be mean, the Mag100s. 

-awr


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## wquiles (Apr 23, 2006)

Thanks much Andrew 

Here is a link to the version two prototype 

Will


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## Css2000 (Apr 24, 2006)

Great job guys




.. This is going to be revolutionary!!


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## ronson5 (Apr 24, 2006)

2 quick questions: 1) will this battery pack work with the KL6 head, and 2) how exactly is the tail cup removed, i'd hate to mess up the stock tailcap? btw, i have the JS battery pack and love it, except i tend to forget to recharge after letting it sit for a month.

chuck


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## wquiles (Apr 24, 2006)

ronson5 said:


> 2 quick questions: 1) will this battery pack work with the KL6 head, and 2) how exactly is the tail cup removed, i'd hate to mess up the stock tailcap? btw, i have the JS battery pack and love it, except i tend to forget to recharge after letting it sit for a month.
> 
> chuck


That is a tough one. The KL6 was designed for 3 primary cells (9 volt nominal), but this regulated pack will be set to 7.2/7.3v, so even though I am sure that you will get the KL6 to light up, I don't know if the KL6 will still work in regulation at that low of a voltage  

I no longer have a KL6 head, so I can't find out for you for sure, although if you have an adjustable power supply you can set it up to 7.2V and try it out 

Now, in terms of removing the tailcup, it is VERY easy to do. Pull the spring out, and with some pliers brab the inner part of the tailcup and simply pull out - it is just pressed-in and it comes out if you pull out hard enough 

Will


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## andrewwynn (Apr 24, 2006)

I'd have to know more about the lamp used with the KL6 head. the M6 also uses 9v nominal pack.. 3s2p.. some fancy wiring since it's in a 2s3p 'look'. 

the JS pack is voltage regulated to 6.8V i believe.. does that light use MN16 lamps at 6.8V? the HD would have to be re-tuned for that lamp if you'd want to use that lamp as mentioned earlier... it's doable, not as efficient at getting the energy from the battery to lamp as the JS pack, but with twice the energy, it's a bit of a moot point, you will still have well over an hour of runtime if the lamp is the output i think it is. 

-awr


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## ronson5 (Apr 24, 2006)

the reason i asked about the kl6 head was that JS had said in his mr6 thread not to use his battery pack with the KL6. i think he said it could destroy the KL6. awr, the KL6 is just the lux5 led for the m6.

thx for the info guys.
chuck


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## andrewwynn (Apr 24, 2006)

aah i see.. yes, we'd hvae to make a speical setting to work with that head.. but holy cow it'd run forever.

-awr


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## ronson5 (Apr 24, 2006)

well, i placed my order. it would cool if the kl6 would work, but the 40min runtime on the hola why i'm placing my order. do let us know, tho, if u figure out whether your battery pack will work w/ the kl6.


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## andrewwynn (Apr 24, 2006)

i just need to know the voltage and we can makr the right tweak


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## andrewwynn (Apr 29, 2006)

good news.. i found a power jack that looks like it'll fit.. means i can incorporate a power jack on the side that is on the tailcap side.. you can charge just by taking off the tailcap.. and if you don't need to use the alligator clips for another purpose.. you can have your charger purpose-built with the power plug. 

-awr


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## dizzy (Apr 29, 2006)

Great news Andrew. This just keeps on getting better and better.:thumbsup:You and petrev are really on a roll with all these innovations. 

Keep it going and SF won't be able to build the M6's fast enough.I'm sure it will, and has, helped their M6 sales, even though they would not like to admit it.

What ever it takes to keep sales going will only benefit us all with more new products in the future.:thanks:


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## andrewwynn (Apr 30, 2006)

people occasionally ask if i will 'get in trouble'.. making surefire and maglite mods.. i say.. as long as they require the purchase of a maglite or a surefire light.. i am only helping their business, that is a win-win situation for them. 

-awr


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## dizzy (Apr 30, 2006)

andrewwynn said:


> people occasionally ask if i will 'get in trouble'.. making surefire and maglite mods.. i say.. as long as they require the purchase of a maglite or a surefire light.. i am only helping their business, that is a win-win situation for them.
> 
> -awr



I couldn't agree more!!

I'm sure they love not having to R&D all the accessories that help to sell their lights.

Did I see a 250w Mag Mod somewhere?? LOL!!


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## NewBie (Apr 30, 2006)

andrewwynn said:


> ps.. i'm leaning toward only selling fully protected packs initially using protected cells within.. mostly as a lower logistical nightmare issue.. but what i might do is that if testing goes well with the raw cells and the price difference is worth bothering.. i'd rebate the difference for people wishing to downgrade. I want to get the ball rolling as fast as possible with as much momentum as posible.. the latest calculations for the machining were an add'l week compared to the last time i did it.. so i want to get in the queue before they add on another week.
> 
> -awr




If you do go the raw/unprotected route, have you came up with a good way to monitor individual cell voltage and individual cell temperature?


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## andrewwynn (Apr 30, 2006)

no, i personally would use RAW cells because of the size of the cell is not dangerously big, and the hotdriver will monitor vBat to the point that if any series cell is weak it just won't turn on.. the charger does the dealing with voltage going in and if you don't use an automatic cell-count charger it's pretty difficult to over charge. Unless i picked up a goverment or LEO contract i wouldn't put more effort into the SFM6 as the 'market' seems to have saturated near about 25-30 units. I might look into including a separate board into the design to include per-cell protection for raw cells but the price is low enough for protected cells it wasn't worth my time and effort. 

-awr


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## NewBie (May 5, 2006)

andrewwynn said:


> no, i personally would use RAW cells because of the size of the cell is not dangerously big, and the hotdriver will monitor vBat to the point that if any series cell is weak it just won't turn on.. the charger does the dealing with voltage going in and if you don't use an automatic cell-count charger it's pretty difficult to over charge. Unless i picked up a goverment or LEO contract i wouldn't put more effort into the SFM6 as the 'market' seems to have saturated near about 25-30 units. I might look into including a separate board into the design to include per-cell protection for raw cells but the price is low enough for protected cells it wasn't worth my time and effort.
> 
> -awr




Okay, lets say a cell gets weak over a little time, after some use. 

If you make your cut-off 3.0V per cell, that works out to 6V.

One could have 4.0V left in one cell, and the other cell could be discharged down to 2.0V, before you cut-off.

The cell the is discharged down to 2.0V is now in a dangerous condition.


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## andrewwynn (May 5, 2006)

light won't run if a cell is 2V.. a 2V cell won't hold 1V if you pull current from it. in a series configuration with 4 cells.. if ONE cell was at 3.0v resting the light won't start. The HDM6s are all being made with six protected cells making that issue a moot point.. when the cells get to the point they are 'going bad'.. you will see severely dropped runtime.. it'll go from say 35 minutes to 25 minutes as one 'row' of cells is 'off'.. I'm still exploring the best way to use RAW cells with a 2x3 configuration because eventually the cells will die.. what usually happens is the first bad cell will wipe out a rung of the ladder... the light won't turn on anymore of course, the problem is using a charging solution that is smart enough to not try to charge the remaining 1-cell of voltage up to 2-cell.. i.e. test the voltage before charging.

-awr


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## dizzy (May 5, 2006)

AWR, I have a feeling that your 25-30 unit estimate is way low. I would bet alot of people are waiting until you have everything finalized and units are shipping. Once word gets out about how great they work, I can see everyone getting their M6's out of their drawers and closets to use them again.

I also think that people that don't own an M6,will buy one knowing that they can get your HD-M6 and not have to go through a ton of lithiums to have fun with their light.

These are just my thoughts on the subject, so don't hold me to any of this,but I wouldn't get too discouraged about the lack of orders just yet.


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## nethiker (May 6, 2006)

As I've mentioned before, I'm extremely interested in Andrew's projects, especially his Hotdriver M6 battery pack. He is definately one of the stars of CPF's brain/talent trust.

The only reason I'm holding off on his Hotdriver projects is that I want him to finish his commitment to the Nano first. I completely understand the realities of cash flow and the need to pay the bills just as I'm sure Andrew understands when people want someone to finish the first job before getting paid for another. This is more of an analogy as I don't consider these projects as jobs per se... more like opportunities to participate with the reward being a light that I would never be able to build on my own. But be it job or opportunity, the expectation of completion of one project before getting involved in the next seems reasonable to me. 

I believe the "market" for a regulated rechargable solution for the M6 is much greater than the 25-30 estimated. I would guess that as soon as Andrew takes care of his old business, he will see increased interest for his new projects.


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## andrewwynn (May 6, 2006)

like mentioned before with cy, absolutely understandable.. i don't mind at all for less people to order and to hold off... things are in-the works to get things finally wrapped up with the seemingly neverending project.. it took a very long time to get my production assistant hired, trained, and able to really kick some butt... she's working for a really nice bonus, and i totally agree that getting my biggest monkey off my back will make a big difference.. it will happen, and i don't feel any hard feelings in the least for people to rightfully have the exact attitude presented here by Greg... very well spoken. It does help, i will point out.. for some people to hold off.. i am getting enough of the metal cups made for at least 100 units because i sense there will be more sales once people get them and realize they pay for themselves in TWO charges. It's been very draining for me to get stuck in the position where it was not possible to finish one before starting the other, but things are in a faaar better place than even just 1-2 mo. ago.. and way out of the 'never going to survive' of dec.

-awr


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## dizzy (Jun 7, 2006)

BUMP for HD-M6 general questions thread. 

I had lost this one myself.


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## andrewwynn (Jun 7, 2006)

thanks for the bump.. people have been posting to the wrong thread. HERE is the official place to ask about HDM6. 

-awr


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## dizzy (Jun 14, 2006)

Hi Andrew, I was wondering what the voltage range will be for the HD-M6 to allow use of osram lamps in the M6 with the FM or your future bi pin lamp holder.

Will the average "joe" be able to dial in the correct setting for other lamps? Also, what kind of meter would be best for measuring this voltage, Fluke digital or Simpson 260 type analog meter. I don't have an O'scope any more to look at wave forms. I assume you need to set the voltage with the lamp load in the circuit starting low and increasing until you reach the proper setpoint.

Another question is will you be supplying a user manual with the HD to give basic instructions on how to fine tune the hotdriver to specific lamps?

Sorry to bother you with these questions but I am always looking for ways to make my M6 a little (or alot) brighter.


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## cnjl3 (Jun 14, 2006)

The PIR with its PWM is the one that needs a high priced "fluke" but only if you want a direct reading-Winny did provide a formula to use if you dont have a "fluke" DMM. With the HDM6 all you will need is a plain jane DMM - at least thats how i see it.


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## andrewwynn (Jun 15, 2006)

The osram 64275 will be ideally suited for use with HDM6 but it will need fine-tuning.. you'd have to change at least the current limit up to the monster current draw it has, or remove current limiting and turn the voltage down to 7.0V.. 

It is a cake-walk to adjust the voltage on a hotdriver.. you can use a 1950s analog meter. I recommend setting the voltage with a 'disposable' lamp like a 12V 20Wer. 

I have the setting directions online.. if you go to the first post..or maybe the first post of the sales thread there is a link to the exact post describing how to set them. 

The M6 with the 275 lamp will be probably 40-50% brighter with a nicer beam (less egg-shape).. don't expect killer throw and you'll be very happy. 

-awr


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## dizzy (Jun 30, 2006)

Bump with a new M6 question for Andrew.

Since there has been no reply in FM's thread, are you still planning on producing a bi-pin socket adapter for the M6 to use the osram 64275 lamps?

I am definetly interested in getting one if they are on your list of things to do. Thanks, 

Mike


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## cnjl3 (Jul 1, 2006)

I was charging my IB1400s pack and was just goofing off and I happened to notice that they fit really easily in my M6. This is a pack of fifteen IB1400s! Did you notice that i took your advise about an extra nut on the front of the battery pack to keep all the pressure off of the center acorn? Although i used nylon instead of brass i hope the substitution doesnt harm anything.
I really liked your idea 
Many thanks, Andrew!







here is a shot of them in the M6 with Petrev’s extension installed:






they only stick out a "little" bit – so either 12 IB-1400s would work or I need to get one of FM’s extension for some future mod?


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## andrewwynn (Jul 1, 2006)

dizzy.. hope you aren't in the flood-zones.. 

to ans. your question.. when some dust settles i want to make as easy as possible upgrade to a blown MNxx lamp assembly to use WA lamps.. hopefully something relatively adept folk can carbon-copy.. rather than a 'ground up' solution that will be $35.. hoping people can do themselves for $10... ala petrev's solution.

I'd have to explore what NIMH solutions will work length-wies.. i would be more interested in GP2000x9 or CBP2500x6 (or 9)... the IB1400s are needed to make 18V but the lamps are too big to fit in the M6 reflector anyhow. 

-awr


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## cnjl3 (Jul 1, 2006)

So "your" from the ground up version would be $35.00? Fm's is up to $46.00! But i would snatch one or maybe two in a heartbeat if they ever come to production. I sure wish that Petrev had done a step by step of his blown M6 MN conversion to his Osram bulb. i have looked at his pictures of his modified bulb and the finished product works but it looks like it isnt a plug in-so it seems that there would be major soldering if his bulb ever blows-"but" with regulators either your HD or the PIR maybe his bulb will last forever? I am very interested in your conversion and look forward to your solution.

CYL


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## petrev (Jul 1, 2006)

cnjl3 said:


> So "your" from the ground up version would be $35.00? Fm's is up to $46.00! But i would snatch one or maybe two in a heartbeat if they ever come to production. I sure wish that Petrev had done a step by step of his blown M6 MN conversion to his Osram bulb. i have looked at his pictures of his modified bulb and the finished product works but it looks like it isnt a plug in-so it seems that there would be major soldering if his bulb ever blows-"but" with regulators either your HD or the PIR maybe his bulb will last forever? I am very interested in your conversion and look forward to your solution.
> 
> CYL



Hi Carlos

Here is the method I posted 



petrev said:


> Hi Curtis
> 
> Bulb first - this is my *MN21-64275*
> 
> ...



The legs of the Bulb are pushed down the middle of the KIU orange heat resistant wire ! seems to work ! ? ! as a holding pattern solution - and I have swapped the bulb once now.

Any Questions - Just Ask

Cheers Pete


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## andrewwynn (Jul 1, 2006)

i was wondering what you did for the 'socket'.. pretty smart for a workaround. i'm aiming to use some small tubing that is 'just the right size' and some potting compound.

-awr


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## cnjl3 (Jul 3, 2006)

Thanks Pete!

A great step by step DIY. 

Looks easy enough - I will have to try it out when i get some time

CYL

Carlos


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## dizzy (Jul 3, 2006)

Andrew, high and dry thank you. I live on top of a hill made of shale, no worries. 

I would be able to do petrev's mod to a MNxx if I had a blown one to work with. Any extras from your testing and R&D work?

Pete, do you put any potting around the bulb to keep it from rattling or as a heat-sink? Also I don't understand how to do the second step 6.



Do they need to be soldered or just a friction fit? Thanks

Mike


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## petrev (Jul 3, 2006)

dizzy said:


> Andrew, high and dry thank you. I live on top of a hill made of shale, no worries.
> 
> I would be able to do petrev's mod to a MNxx if I had a blown one to work with. Any extras from your testing and R&D work?
> 
> ...



Hi Mike

- Attempt number 2 (IE6 Crashed again - must remember not to try posting using it)

Typo ? What Typo

#6(2) just friction and the elastic walls of Kiu wire - Potting stuff might have been good but had none so . . .some proper sockets would be good too !

Bit of wobble room but step 5 works quite well - this is a drawing of section through the MN-pillar





Just meant to be a cheap and cheerful solution until someone makes a better one !

Any Questions . . . ?

Cheers Pete


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## dizzy (Jul 3, 2006)

Thanks for clearing that up for me (and others?) Now all I need is a dead MNxx and an osram 64275 or two and some ambition.

That drawing says it all. (Worth a thousand words) Thanks


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## cnjl3 (Jul 4, 2006)

So far i have seen WA1111,WA1185 and other bulbs mentioned but is the WA1160 at 6.6v also an option?


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## andrewwynn (Jul 4, 2006)

1160 would work great once there is an MN->WA adapter.. the HD would have to be dialed-in to the correct voltage. 

-awr


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## dizzy (Jul 5, 2006)

Hey Andrew, I see those poll vote numbers creeping up in anticipation of the HDM6 release. I hope you ordered extra parts. :lolsign:


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## andrewwynn (Jul 6, 2006)

I have enough metal cups made for about 100 HDM6.. about double the orders.. it won't take very long to make a 'round two' if there is even more demand.. the long pause is mostly from getting the new vTwo driver designed .. even the fabrication is only 3 weeks.

-awr


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## mikehill (Jul 8, 2006)

Hi Andrew,
just one more question before I order ... what charger will I need, bearing in mind I'm in the UK and it's 240v here.
Thanks, Mike.


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## andrewwynn (Jul 8, 2006)

the chargers are 120-240 universal.. you'd either need an adapter or replace the end of the plug.. sorry i didn't get the exact model posted yet.. i will work out a 'save shipping' solution pretty soon.. right about when the boards are here and we start assembly. 

-awr


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## mikehill (Jul 9, 2006)

Cheers Andrew, if you could give me a total price when you know, then I'll Paypal straight away.
Mike.


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## andrewwynn (Jul 12, 2006)

I will be putting on a charger option within a couple days. 

-awr


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## dizzy (Jul 31, 2006)

Hey Andrew, I am wondering, since I just got one of the new MN20 lamps (250 lumen) which was redesigned, is the way you set the driver going to change also, or is the current draw or voltage requirement for the new lamp close enough to the old one to not matter?

The turns of wire in the filament went up with the redesign so I don't know what that will do with your current driver set-up with the old MN20 which you probably have.

How are things coming along with the HD? Any guesstimations, comments, concerns,calculations? Thanks in advance.

Mike


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## andrewwynn (Jul 31, 2006)

the MN20 can handle basically full-voltage from 7.2V source.. i think they are happy up to about 7.6.. I will likely set the voltage limit to 7.4 since the bat's will definitely hold some over-voltage with a fresh charge. 

We finally got a vTwo driver running last night.. fine-tuning the voltage cutout mechanism since it goes by vBat now using an independent battery monitor chip.. it's close to where we will be cranking out the mass assembly.. sorry for the delays, just been a lot of little monkey wrenches. 

-awr


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## wquiles (Aug 1, 2006)

The new bulb works just as nice as the old one, at least in the limited testing I have done so far with a regulated pack as I show here . The new and old MN20 look stunning at 7.5V DC equivalent (even if I like the old MN20 a little bit better!). If set to 7.4V, I bet it will look just as nice 

Will


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