# NaturalShine Caveman 3000



## Matjazz (Jun 16, 2013)

I don't know how new this is but it's new to me and I haven't seen it posted on this forum:




http://www.naturalshine.eu/index.php?option=com_k2&view=item&id=147:caveman_3000&Itemid=117


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## uk_caver (Jun 16, 2013)

I haven't seen it before either, though I'd be intrigued by why a vaguely modern light would use XR-Es for flood.
That said, I'm rather puzzled why _anyone_ would choose to use naked LEDs for flood unless they had unlimited power.

The natural first reaction for many people could be to say '_Scurion called - they want their case back_', but that might be rather unfair since there are a limited number of obvious ways of designing machined metal lights.


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## Rexlion (Jun 16, 2013)

My antivirus warned me of an exploit attack from the link posted by the OP.


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## Knight_Light (Jun 16, 2013)

uk_caver said:


> That said, I'm rather puzzled why anyone would choose to use naked LEDs for flood unless they had unlimited power.


 Unlimited power probably means different things to different people. For example, if a light has a runtime of 4 hours (at a particular light level) and the user of that light only uses it for 2 hours and has access to charging capabilities then they in essence have unlimited power. 

Having said that, naked floodlights are just awesome. I would never take one on an expedition but for around the house and for up close tasks to me they are hard to beat. It’s not that you can’t get the task done with anything else it’s just that visually it is a lot more appealing to me to have a pure floodlight when working on things within a 5 foot radius.


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## uk_caver (Jun 16, 2013)

_Personally_ I don't find minor artifacts in a beam annoying, though I accept that that is a personal thing and not a case of 'right' or 'wrong'.

After switching from using a naked flood to a gently centre-biased one, I much prefer the latter even if the process does introduce some imperfections - for a beam for caving, where much usage of flood is for walking around, having a centre-biased beam actually results in more even illumination much of the time, since the beam centre is typically pointing at things rather further away, as well as making efficient use of 'sideways' light that would otherwise be of rather limited use and delaying the need to start using spot beams for relatively nearby targets.

But I guess I am getting a bit OT.

This light does look interesting.
It would _appear_ like the two strobe modes and one SOS mode are part of the main power sequence, which I would suspect most people would find annoying.
The choice of independent control of power and beam-blend definitely has something to be said for it, providing a lot of usable options without the issues of 'programmed' control, though it's not clear what the nature of the 'combined' mode is (is it a 50:50 blend, does it give a spot-dominated beam, etc)
Not having thermal limiting would seem a bit odd for a high-end light, given how cheap/easy it is to implement.


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## majoetetaa07 (Jun 18, 2013)

Having a flash and SOS means that this lamp manufacturers have certainly used a Chinese generic driver.


These modes are completely useless in caving and more diving caving.


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## uk_caver (Jun 18, 2013)

Are there generic twin-beam drivers around?

If not, the effort in using a generic driver for power control while doing the rest (beam-blend changing, power on/off) in my own electronics would seem to make just doing everything myself an attractive option, and possibly an easier one, as well as giving me more control.

And I'm still curious about the XR-Es.


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## majoetetaa07 (Jun 20, 2013)

I have not seen that it was the XR-E, but the XM-L that were used, right?
"Tipo LED: Ultima generacion: Cree XML"


I also use generic drivers, but I never use the drivers with a strobe or SOS. Because it is not really useful in caving.


On this lamp, to scroll through the power levels, it is mandatory to go through both modes Strobe and SOS mode.
100% -> 30% -> 10% -> 0.5% -> 1Hz -> 6Hz -> SOS -> 100% -> ...... etc.
It is very unpleasant.
While there are a few drivers on the market without these modes, or to schedule them for not using them. Especially Taskled.


I also find that there is not enough choice of level (3 actual levels), too much difference between 100% and 30%.


The maximum power advertised is not very clear. That mean 3200 lux at 1m? 3200 candelas? How many lumens?


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## majoetetaa07 (Jun 20, 2013)

Mais sur la photographie, on dirait bien des XR-E ??

Je ne comprend pas non plus ce que veux dire: *índice Color Luz 6000~7200K + 2700~4000K ; total 3200Lm

*Quel rapport entre les kelvins et les lumens ?

Il est question ici de 3200 Lm (lumens). Mais aussi de 3200 lux (lumens/m2) à 1m.
Ce n'est vraiment pas clair... Ce qui pour une lampe est un peu dommage 

But the photograph, it looks like the XR-E?


I don't understand either what it's mean: índice Color Luz 6000 ~ 2700 ~ 7200K + 4000K, total 3200Lm


What is the relationship between Kelvin and lumens?


They talk about 3200 Lm (lumens). But also 3200 lux (lumens/m2) at 1m.
It is not really clear ... For a lamp it's not very clear


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## uk_caver (Jun 20, 2013)

majoetetaa07 said:


> But the photograph, it looks like the XR-E?


It does look like that for the flood beam.

I'd wonder what the output at various angles would be for a naked R2 XR-E compared to more modern LEDS, given that the XR-E is more forward-biased?


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## degarb (Jun 29, 2013)

Knight_Light said:


> Unlimited power probably means different things to different people. For example, if a light has a runtime of 4 hours (at a particular light level) and the user of that light only uses it for 2 hours and has access to charging capabilities then they in essence have unlimited power.



This is short sighted thinking. Cells reduce in capacity over time. Also, the human mind tends to be optimistic. Everything takes more time than you estimate. I would say by a factor of two, or even four.

Examples:
I think I will use headlamps to just finish up and cleanup for an hour after sunset; six hours later I am still working. A 15 minute door, may take 2.5 to 3 hours from start to finishing to get looking perfect with number of coats/sanding/taping even with best skilled painter. Doesn't look it.

My cellphone claims days worth of standby and runtime. I am seeing death by 3pm (both nokia and motorola xt) of the battery with light usage in my mind. After a year, I expect death by noon. 

Get lost in that cave, find an interesting passage, find interesting things to study.... You need padding. 

Its like packing a car for a camping trip; the more efficient you pack, the more stuff you can take. There is never enough hard drive storage space, just higher rez video you can store. To get quality in any endeavour, you need efficiency.


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## uk_caver (Jun 29, 2013)

I think for caving, time estimates are generally pretty good, and most unforeseen circumstances don't actually require a lot of light.
As long as a light has some suitable lower powers and either uses power packs where spares can be carried, or has decent power management, it should be unlikely to leave people stranded.

My thinking was more regarding the 'waste' of light from a naked flood - just as a bit of centre-biasing can give a light which looks as bright to the user as a naked flood would at 2-3x the power, at equal power the centre-biased light can light the majority of scenes up rather better.

However, it does seem that for a lot of users, lumens are _the_ thing, even if many of them may go to lighting up things in directions the user is unlikely or even physically unable to see in.


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## Knight_Light (Jun 29, 2013)

degarb said:


> This is short sighted thinking. Cells reduce in capacity over time. Also, the human mind tends to be optimistic. Everything takes more time than you estimate. I would say by a factor of two, or even four.


 
You really should read that again because I think you’re missing the meaning. And as far as the cells reducing capacity over time it still irrelevant. Think about it, if a particular light has 4 hours of output and you only need 2 hours of that what difference does it make if the original capacity was 8 hours. 

Most people understand that if they are doing something for the 1st​ time that it will usually take longer than one thinks. But if you’re doing the same task over and over again, like walking the dog, and you’re taking 5 times as long as you thought each time then you have bigger problems to deal with than how much battery capacity you need. lol



degarb said:


> I think I will use headlamps to just finish up and cleanup for an hour after sunset; six hours later I am still working. A 15 minute door, may take 2.5 to 3 hours from start to finishing to get looking perfect with number of coats/sanding/taping even with best skilled painter. Doesn't look it. .


 What if at the end of that task you still had 8 hours of light left it would be irrelevant. Because at the end you can just go inside the house or wherever and charge your batteries



degarb said:


> My cellphone claims days worth of standby and runtime. I am seeing death by 3pm (both nokia and motorola xt) of the battery with light usage in my mind. After a year, I expect death by noon.


 Same thing goes for your cell phone scenario if at the end of the day you have half a battery left while utilizing your cell phone whatever way you want, it becomes irrelevant.



degarb said:


> Get lost in that cave, find an interesting passage, find interesting things to study.... You need padding.


 You would have to lack complete common sense to go into a caving environment with one light let alone one battery. So I don’t know where this is coming from. Especially since this scenario doesn’t have access to easy charging capabilities which is irrelevant to my previous statement.



degarb said:


> Its like packing a car for a camping trip; the more efficient you pack, the more stuff you can take. There is never enough hard drive storage space, just higher rez video you can store. To get quality in any endeavour, you need efficiency.


 
That statement would hold true if you are going car camping. If you are going for a two-week excursion and all you could bring is what fits inside your pack then it would be irrelevant as to how efficiently you pack the car. It would matter how efficiently you pack the pack because that is ultimately all you’re going to be able to take.


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## Knight_Light (Jun 29, 2013)

uk_caver said:


> I think for caving, time estimates are generally pretty good, and most unforeseen circumstances don't actually require a lot of light.
> As long as a light has some suitable lower powers and either uses power packs where spares can be carried, or has decent power management, it should be unlikely to leave people stranded.
> 
> My thinking was more regarding the 'waste' of light from a naked flood - just as a bit of centre-biasing can give a light which looks as bright to the user as a naked flood would at 2-3x the power, at equal power the centre-biased light can light the majority of scenes up rather better.
> ...


 
I agree with the statements that you make. But my point is/was, if you have the luxury to waste energy and you have a preference for a naked flood then it is totally justifiable. To me personally naked flood lights are the cats meow for up close work but that doesn’t mean I would take one camping for extended periods of time or caving for that matter.

Have you actually checked out the Armytek wizard? It actually has a center biased flood. I know from reading your posts that you make your own lights but I think you would appreciate the way they designed the optic.


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## degarb (Jun 29, 2013)

I did forget this consideration for necessary power overhead: we all, at times, forget to charge overnight, and if you sucked the batteries dry yesterday, no runtime today. 

(Backup cells have limitations: better be lsd; do you have extra cells; do I trust leaving 4 extra cells with someone else; do I trust a partner to no break my light opening the battery compartment; smokers will mild battery swaps for all the break is worth.) 

Then, doesn't sucking cells all down to zero hurt the cells? (This is a complex question, never really clearly illustrated, in my googling and queries.) 

I am not arguing there isn't a place for running a light all out, with just enough runtime. I use lights for work. So, cost and practicality matters more for me. Moreover, anything inefficient bothers me.


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## degarb (Jun 29, 2013)

Has anyone ever made a flood flashlight/headlamp from an inexpensive xt-e? I wonder if it would work?


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## uk_caver (Jun 29, 2013)

Knight_Light said:


> Have you actually checked out the Armytek wizard? It actually has a center biased flood. I know from reading your posts that you make your own lights but I think you would appreciate the way they designed the optic.


If checking out involves buying, it's unlikely to happen in the foreseeable future.

I'd certainly play with one if I knew someone who had one, but though most of my closer friends are fairly significant users of lights above and below ground, I couldn't say any of them were really flashaholics - I'm not sure anyone I know well even has anything 18650-powered (or at least, not powered by _loose_ 18650s).


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## Barbarin (Jul 1, 2013)

For many reasons, not just the suspicious similarity, what is behind this light is a shameless copy of the Scurions. No wonder, they were becoming popular and they made zero effort in reducing prices, so sooner or later a chinese "with a little help" of a westerner, will do it.

Other than that there are many unexplored ways of making a headlamp. For example Im making now 10 pcs for me and my friends (with not even a single though of going into production) with environmental protection based on vacuum monomer deposition, and titanium frame. By the way, I will be more than happy to show you that 1000 lm ultralight wonder when it is ready and done.



Regards,

Javier


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## uk_caver (Jul 1, 2013)

For a shameless Scurion copy, it would seem a pretty strange choice of a user interface.
If 'they' did pick someone to give a little help with the driver, I think they picked the wrong someone (heck, they could have asked me...).

And I thought Scurion _had_ dropped prices a little - isn't the current Basic rather less than the originals?


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## Barbarin (Jul 2, 2013)

In China they do love to "cut corners": Saving a few cents on things that they do think have no effect on the end result. (Cheap thermal dissipation grease, fake glues, crappy screws...). They just got what they had arround. Regarding the story behind I could give you two-three names and would make no mistake at all. Too many years on this.

By the way, right now Im in Shenzhen.


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