# MagLite 2C/2D 4D 3W LED drop-in Technical Review



## NewBie

Okay, so what makes this sucker tick, and how does it actually perform?


First, the drive waveform on the pins of the LED, from the switcher that is built in:








I mounted the drop-in module into a 2D-Cell light, so that cell voltage drop would have much less of an effect on measurements.

Next we have preparation of the MagLite 2C LED module, where I have drilled into the side of the Luxeon, to access the Luxeon slug, backfilled with thermal grease for temperature measurements:






Showing the K-type thermocouple wires stuck into the hole, notice how fine of a guage they are:






Here is a picture of part of the setup after the 30 minute test was over:






The interesting thing here is to note just how hot the LED slug gets, and how it's light output drops as it heats up. We are looking at nearly a 60% drop in output, due to the LED getting hot, from a severe lack of good heatsinking:







At the beginning, I measured an input voltage of 3.109 V from the batteries, pulling 1,320 mA. This works out to 4.10388 Watts input. I did not have time to modify the output so that I could measure current to the Luxeon.

At time zero, I got 3.986 V across the pins on the LED in the module. This is the voltage applied to the LED.

The voltage to the LED rapidly drops, stabilizing over time, as the module heats way up.

Towards the end of the 30 minute runtime, the current dropped to 410mA at 2.95V on the input side, with only 3.115V on the Luxeon pins, after the MagLite drop-in heated up to 72.7 degrees C (162.9 F) on the LED slug.

As the module heats up, it looks like the circuitry severely kicks back the power to the LED, resulting in a major drop in output.

It would be interesting to see how it would perform with better heatsinking.


If I have time, I will do a better set of measurements, monitoring additional parameters.


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Okay, well I froze the light body (without the batteries). I installed the room temperature D cells into the flashlight. Then I used M.G. Chemicals Super Cold 134 Plus (which can cool to -51C) Catalog #403A-285g to freeze the head section, to include the pillar/post and LED assembly. As soon as the LED slug rose to -40C, I started the test.

You will note a few quirks in the MagLite 2C LED 3W module as it is warming up. 

FYI, the ambient temperature, in the room where I ran this test this morning is unheated, was 7.8 C (46F). It was about 10C cooler in the room than the test I ran yesterday.

If the ambient is warmer than 7.8C (46 F), then the LED would heat up more, and the light output would drop even further. It would also drop sooner.







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Okay, I hit another Walmart and scored some stuff:























As it turns out, I opened this Maglite 2D 3W LED, really hoping to see some innovative heatsinking, and all I found was just a standard Maglite with the LED module in it:






One of the funniest things I found, is they still include the incandescent spare in the base of the MagLite LED 2D 3W.

Yes, it dims just like the LED module does when placed in a regular MagLite.


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wwglen said:


> Even dimmed it will probably be bright enough for extended run times.
> 
> Question:
> 
> Does the battery current drop as the protection kicks in?
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> wwglen




Yes, the current drops *alot* from cold to hot (72.7C or 161 F), in a cold ambient (I've been running in 45-55F ambient). Even the 10C difference makes a surprisingly big impact. I would expect these MagLite LED modules and MagLite LED flashlights to not perform as well in a warmer area of the country. When the module is hot, soaking them with alot of with cold spray causes the light output to jump back to when you first turned it on, and the current goes right back up at the same time.

In case anyone needs the SKU's to look around Walmarts in their area:






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From the packaging of the Maglite 3W LED Upgrade, for those who want to know:















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Here is the MagLite 4D 3W LED module, you can see the switcher running (ripple), at about 200KHz:







The ones that "buck" are not just resistored like some have said.


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I've just got a waveform off the MagLite 3D LED 3W module. Notice I had to crank up the vertical scale to see the switcher ripple, so instead of being 500mV per division, it is at 10mV per division, so it has roughly 30mV of ripple (much less than the others), and it is switching around 333KHz:







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I know everyone likes a beamshot layout.

I'm currently working on them, here is the first teaser:







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Added a few lights to the array. Beamshots are after about 25 minutes runtime here. The LED MagLites were alot brighter at the beginning. All lights have new cells, and cost quite a handsome sum to go fresh. Note the Fenix L2P shown here is quite the cream of the crop...















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Here we go, one of those for your eyes only, which reveals
the secrets and the shortcommings, and explains a great
many things...


























Potting this puppy might help alot...but keep the potting out of the contacts.

I really cannot believe MagLite actually did this...


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I have not had a chance to characterize the module yet, but I will try and get some curves on it over the next few days. I can tell you it still works at 1.45V in, but it will only pull 182mA out of the cell. As such, this is well below the 0.8V of 2 depleted D sized Alkaline cells in series.


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martytoo said:


> Newbie,
> 
> Why do you have two beam shots for Mag 2D LED Bulb (to the right of the Inova beam) ??
> 
> And, isn't it true that even though the measured beam is 50% of maximum when hot, this is just about the limit of what we can discern in brightness difference when using a light. That is, we will notice that the light is a bit less bright once it heats up, but only a barely perceptible difference will be seen.
> 
> Has anyone been able to make beam shots of the Mags cold versus hot? I think that would be interesting. ??




Because I have two 2D Mag 3W LED drop-in bulbs. I fully expected to have to ruin one when revealing it's internal guts.


Brightness difference, in a side by side, I have seen folks that can just make out 20% when I test them.


I did notice the tint shifts as they get hot.

Okay, here are two of these 2D 3W MagLite LED drop-ins, side by side. At the start they are equal brightness, very slightly different tints. I just set one up here for about 15 minutes, and let it run, and then turned on the other, and got a picture within the first minute.







--------------------------------------------------------------------------


Measuring the MagLite circuit was a little squirrley.

The reason why is that it is not very efficient, and it produces lots of it's own heat all by itself (no LED). 

I measured it with the circuit board in open air, with an LED that was remotely located, the LED was very agressively cooled.

The LED I used for the test with the Mag circuit has a little high of a Vf, I will be repeating the test later on with an LED of a lower Vf. I expect the circuit efficiency to increase a little with a lower Vf bin.

It was neat to watch the circuit crank up the output power when you lightly blow on it, it responds very quickly.

I would expect the circuit to deliver more power in the module, as it looks like the temperature measurement point would end up cooler in the beginning. But once the module heats up, it would crank the power down anyhow.

I may end up having to modify a MagLite, with the module mounted in it, to get more realisitic numbers.











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Hitting the circuit with chill spray, causes the current to jump up, and as it heats up, it draws more and more current, then it rapidly kicks down.

At the peak (frosty cold), input current hits 1.952A, and output current hit 0.952A. Output power was 4.76W and input power is 6.04W. Efficiency in this state is 78.8%. This high power spot climbs from cold, hits a peak, and rapidly drops back down. I do believe it probably happens right at the same point that my chilled runtime plot I posted earlier peaks way up.


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Okay, I took an uber low Vf G bin Luxeon I and re-ran the same test, under the same type of conditions as mentioned before:










It was interesting to see the temperature hysteresis and thermal time constant interactions. Without the circuit mounted in the normal PR housing, the thermal time constant is faster, and you can watch it oscillate a bit, until it stabilizes.


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Some folks wanted a clearer picture of the custom LED in the MagLite drop-in, this should clear up the custom leads on the LED:






Here is the 4 Cell version of the drop-in:










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The power side is nothing special, it is just a low efficiency non-synchronous buck, or low efficiency non-synchronous boost. Folks have been using circuits like this around here since 2002, but most have moved on to more efficient designs.

I'll not be getting into the proprietary circuit on the other side, I will leave that up to the end user to figure out on their own.

Now for modders, there are a few items in here that could be changed to improve the efficiency of the module, most notably is the schottky diode.

On the "power side" of the board, we have the 33uF Tantalum capacitor, 10uH inductor, and the 0.1 ohm sense resistor.


Okay, lets start identifying some of the semiconductors used on the power side:


4 Cell
S3G- Toshiba P-CH MOSFET part number TPC6107 (55 [email protected] Gate)

2 Cell
S2C- Toshiba N-CH MOSFET part number TPC6004 (32 [email protected] Gate)

2 Cell and 4 Cell
1L1 OnSemi Powermite Schottky Power Rectifier MBRM110L rated for 1A, 10V reverse voltage, 0.365 Vf @ 1A & 25C, Average power dissipation at 1A square wave 0.27W.


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Another shot of the MagLite 3W LED module (3 cell shown here):







Internal board pictures:










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The standard step-down controller, without the MagLite modifcations, that is used on the MagLite 3 cell and 4 cell internal boards, and goes for 0.55 ea can be found here:

http://focus.ti.com/docs/prod/folders/print/tps64201.html


Datasheet is here:
http://focus.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/tps64201.pdf


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Ray_of_Light said:


> Newbie, I have a question for you, since you have disassembled them: is the solder leadless? I have read somewhere that the new leadless solder has a limited number of thermal cycles, then it cracks. END EDIT
> 
> Anthony




Good Question. I've been working with solder for 36 years now. Normally, all the lead-free solders I seen, have a grainy appearance to them, and they are somewhat harder then normal solders.

This solder doesn't appear grainy (in some areas it does, but that may be the process and what floated off the leads, particularly the inductor).

As you can see, on a close-up of one of the leads of the uber tiny SC-70 package parts, one sees none of the grainy stuff, just a little oxide in places. Keep in mind, these leads are small, ~0.225mm wide (~0.00886 inches) :





Nor is the solder hard. 

I lack a lead test kit for a definitive answer, but these ones I bought at WalMart, appear to be done on a lead process.


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Okay, started a runtime on a second "bulb", with the following results:






This test is on going, the batteries are only down to 1.27V each at the end of 24 hours, so there is a very long way to go yet:






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As promised, Moon Mode runtime plots for the 2 cell boost version, in a 2D light.

The 3D and 4D buck would run alot longer...

It was still emitting light in moon mode 184 hours later (over 7 days). The 4D would probably still be emitting light more than 15 days later...though I have not had a chance to do the runtime on it.







------------------------------------------------------------------

If you take a look over at Quickbeam's site, he just did a review, with final runtime graphs in process on July 16, 2006. You'll notice these puppies are owning the EverLED, and pretty close to the Diamond for Throw and Overall Output. Please note that the human eye needs about a 20% difference in output in a side-by-side comparison test to tell which one is brighter, and for most folks, even 20% doesn't result in a 100% ID of the brighter one...

Stock Maglite:
http://www.flashlightreviews.com/reviews/maglite_3d.htm

3-D
Throw 6185 (78.65)
Overall Output 2300 (23.00)

4-D
Throw 9720 (98.59)
Overall Output 3800 (38.00)


MagLite's LED module:
http://www.flashlightreviews.com/reviews/maglite_mag-led.htm
2-D
Throw 6800 (82.46)
Overall Output 3800 (38.00)

3-D
Throw 7500 (86.60)
Overall Output 4750 (47.50)

4-D
Throw 7000 (83.66)
Overall Output4300 (43.00)


EverLED:
http://www.flashlightreviews.com/reviews/everled.htm

3C
Overall Output 1740 (17.40 standardized)

3D
Overall Output 2350 (23.50 standardized)

4D
Overall Output of 2440 (24.40 standardized)


Diamond 3W
http://www.flashlightreviews.com/reviews/diamond_magbulbs3w.htm

3D 
Throw 8400 (91.65)
Overall Output 4200 (42.00)


Most notable, you can see the Diamond drop in output in a bigtime hurry- to 50% output on the graphs. Well, the EverLED also drops in it's graphs. And if you look, you'll see even the Incandescent bulbs drop even worse. So the drop isn't unique to the MagLite LED module...

A link for the poor incandescent bulb performance:
http://www.flashlightreviews.com/reviews/maglite_3d.htm


Keep in mind, the human eye needs about a 20% difference to even see a difference in a simultaneous side-by-side comparision...

As usual, refer back to the first post in this thread for alot more details.


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## Empath

*Re: MagLite 2C LED drop-in Techinical Review*

A good mod project could be the development of a heat sink. It should be a pretty simple task to make a "washer" type insert that fits down over the threaded retaining ring and rests snuggly against the inside of the body. Of course it would take different sizes for the C cell lights and D cell. That way it wouldn't have to back the power down as often.

Good report, Newbie. Thanks.


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## BentHeadTX

*Re: MagLite 2C LED drop-in Techinical Review*

Thanks for the stats, Newbie 
Although the pill's ability to turn itself down is a good thing, the lack of heat sinking kills the performance. I can see a thread-on heatsink/cap device epoxied to the Mag head becoming a very desirable quick mod to get the performance back. The reflector will have to be cut back but that is not a hard thing to do. 
All hail the Mag-LED mods for a serious thrower on the cheap :thumbsup:


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## NewBie

*Re: MagLite 2C LED drop-in Technical Review*

I was thinking of a reverse U heatsink that replaces the PR lamp retaining nut, all integrated into one.

It would be a "nut tube" that went part way down the tower stem, then would go across to the outside wall, and would contact the flashlight body over a 1-2" area.

BTW, thanks, and you are welcome!


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## BentHeadTX

*Re: MagLite 2C LED drop-in Techinical Review*



NewBie said:


> I was thinking of a reverse U heatsink that replaces the PR lamp retaining nut, all integrated into one.
> 
> It would be a "nut tube" that went part way down the tower stem, then would go across to the outside wall, and would contact the flashlight body over a 1-2" area.
> 
> BTW, thanks, and you are welcome!



Sign me up for one if you produce some!
I have my HA-III bored 2D Mag waiting for the upcoming BAM mod (Aug/Sep) and the drop-in pill with reverse U heat sink would allow me to screw around with it while I wait. Then I can pull it out, make the BAM mod and get a wild color 2D Mag for the modded pill/heat sink.


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## NewBie

*Re: MagLite 2C LED drop-in Technical Review*

I don't have a lathe on hand.


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## CM

*Re: MagLite 2C LED drop-in Technical Review*



NewBie said:


> ...As the module heats up, it looks like the circuitry severely kicks back the power to the LED, resulting in a major drop in output.
> 
> It would be interesting to see how it would perform with better heatsinking.
> 
> 
> If I have time, I will do a better set of measurements, monitoring additional parameters.




Newbie, are you saying there's some form of thermal protection built in to the regulator? It would be interesting to repeat the test but give the circuit a shot of freeze spray after it hits 70C. It seems that they biased the LED really hot (no pun intended) but with no heatsinking and with alkaline batteries in mind. With good thermal management and using NiMH, this thing would actually perform pretty good.

I'd love to see runtime data. Better yet, replace the lux with a resistive load that closely simulates a "typical" (sorry to have to use that word) luxeon, say about 9 - 10 ohms, and do a power in vs power out. OK, that's a lot to do, maybe I'll pick one of these up and get my own data.


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## ABTOMAT

*Re: MagLite 2C LED drop-in Technical Review*

When these things were first mentioned Mag did say they were thermally protected. It's an interesting way of handling things. I like that idea for the drop-in modules (to keep the greater public from cooking their LEDs) but I'm rather dissapointed that it appears the turnkey C/D Mag-LED lights will work the same way. I mean, when developing a new product line it wouldn't have killed them to add a heatsink.

Since I haven't been much of an LED guy, how do other PR-base Luxeon drop-ins handle heat? Run wide open and hope for the best?


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## martytoo

*Re: MagLite 2C LED drop-in Technical Review*

How bad is the donut hole with this light when focused away from a spot beam?


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## CM

*Re: MagLite 2C LED drop-in Technical Review*



ABTOMAT said:


> ... I mean, when developing a new product line it wouldn't have killed them to add a heatsink.



It would not be a simple drop in solution anymore. What would be great is a totally brand new product unencumbered by decades of baggage. Not to say to scrap everything they've done. Rather, they could have modified the existing design and utilize it's incredible heatsinking capability of the large form factor 2C/2D bodies to give us a light that would outperform Surefire LED lights like the KL1/KL3, L2 etc. using cheaper mainstream alkalines or switch over to NiMH for higher performance. Since hitting the store shelves in the last several days, EVERYONE seems to be talking mods already with the heatsink being at the top of the list. Maybe the drop in is a transitional product and that Mag will eventually evolve their line towards something similar to what I've talked about.


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## NewBie

*Re: MagLite 2C LED drop-in Technical Review*



CM said:


> Newbie, are you saying there's some form of thermal protection built in to the regulator? It would be interesting to repeat the test but give the circuit a shot of freeze spray after it hits 70C. It seems that they biased the LED really hot (no pun intended) but with no heatsinking and with alkaline batteries in mind. With good thermal management and using NiMH, this thing would actually perform pretty good.
> 
> I'd love to see runtime data. Better yet, replace the lux with a resistive load that closely simulates a "typical" (sorry to have to use that word) luxeon, say about 9 - 10 ohms, and do a power in vs power out. OK, that's a lot to do, maybe I'll pick one of these up and get my own data.




Wow, after it was hot, I hit it with the freeze spray and the intensity kicked way up. I re-ran things, starting off with the slug cooled to -40C. The thermal protection looks like it starts to kicks in around 20C.


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## CM

*Re: MagLite 2C LED drop-in Technical Review*



NewBie said:


> Wow, after it was hot, I hit it with the freeze spray and the intensity kicked way up. I re-ran things, starting off with the slug cooled to -40C. The thermal protection looks like it starts to kicks in around 20C.



Excellent! Newbie, after half an hour running continuous, will the output revert to anything close to what it was in the beginning, after you hit it with cold spray? I'm trying to guage if the cells have enough energy left in them or if the circuit is efficient/inefficient. I'm going to try to pick one of these up later today and see how big an effect a heatsink would have on the output. The circuit sounds like it has some level of sophistication in it.

OK, who stocks these things? I've read Home Depot and wally world, anyone else? I hate fighting the crowd at either place, especially ww.


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## ViReN

*Re: MagLite 2C LED drop-in Technical Review*



>



Just wondering, if the drop in output is JUST because of the rise in LED junction temprature and NOT due to some sort of 'temprature control engineering'... is it true?

as otherwise observed that the light output will be down as temprature rises.. isnt it?


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## TinderBox (UK)

*Re: MagLite 2C LED drop-in Technical Review*

I just had a look at my 3D, It`s not going to be simple to heatsink the bulb socket, as the socket is sping loaded to rise and fall inside the reflector as you turn the head to focus the beam.

I allways wondered why the bottom of the reflector was shaped that way, it presses on a brass rivet and forces the bulb holder to rise and fall in a sort of a cam action.

anyway it looks like it will be fun to heat sink it.

regards.


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## CM

*Re: MagLite 2C LED drop-in Technical Review*



TinderBox (UK) said:


> I just had a look at my 3D, It`s not going to be simple to heatsink the bulb socket, as the socket is sping loaded to rise inside and fall inside the reflector as you turn the head to focus the beam.
> 
> I allways wondered why the bottom of the reflector was shaped that way, it presses on a brass rivet and forces the bulb holder to rise and fall in a sort of a cam action.
> 
> anyway it looks like it will be fun to heat sink it.
> 
> regards.



That was my point in a previous point about "drop-in" I think you would need to modify the reflector and then use the hotlips heat sink idea. I think it can be done but I need to get one of these to see what is the simplest way to conduct the heat to the main body. Of course, you will lose the capability to use the regular PR incandescents afterwards. I don't see that as a big loss.


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## NewBie

*Re: MagLite 2C LED drop-in Technical Review*



CM said:


> Excellent! Newbie, after half an hour running continuous, will the output revert to anything close to what it was in the beginning, after you hit it with cold spray? I'm trying to guage if the cells have enough energy left in them or if the circuit is efficient/inefficient. I'm going to try to pick one of these up later today and see how big an effect a heatsink would have on the output. The circuit sounds like it has some level of sophistication in it.
> 
> OK, who stocks these things? I've read Home Depot and wally world, anyone else? I hate fighting the crowd at either place, especially ww.




Yes, if you freeze it, on it's way down, it's output returns to normal intensities.


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## TinderBox (UK)

*Re: MagLite 2C LED drop-in Technical Review*

better idea, aluminum maglite reflector, that presses on the brass rivet and transfers the heat away from the LED.

regards.


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## Icebreak

*Re: MagLite 2C LED drop-in Technical Review*

Newbie -

Could you put a small hollow coil around the drop-in unit that can be fed by a little pressurized cylinder of freon? Hook a tiny valve up to a solenoid that is activated by the thermal protection circuitry. That should solve the output problem.

I'm sure you have these parts just laying around. Could you whip up a couple hundred of them? I'll be watching Homemade BST.

Seriously...great study and presentation. This is highly appreciated.


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## NewBie

*Re: MagLite 2C LED drop-in Technical Review*

Okay, well I froze the light body (without the batteries). I installed the room temperature D cells into the flashlight. Then I used M.G. Chemicals Super Cold 134 Plus (which can cool to -51C) Catalog #403A-285g to freeze the head section, to include the pillar/post and LED assembly. As soon as the LED slug rose to -40C, I started the test.

You will note a few quirks in the MagLite 2C LED 3W module as it is warming up. 

FYI, the ambient temperature, in the room where I ran this test this morning is unheated, was 7.8 C (46F). It was about 10C cooler in the room than the test I ran yesterday.

If the ambient is warmer than 7.8C (46 F), then the LED would heat up more, and the light output would drop even further. It would also drop sooner.


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## watt4

*Re: MagLite 2C LED drop-in Technical Review*

looking at the first graph, what's your call for the runtime to 50% brightness?


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## NewBie

*Re: MagLite 2C LED drop-in Technical Review*



watt4 said:


> looking at the first graph, what's your call for the runtime to 50% brightness?




About 5.7 minutes, if you have it out in the cold appliance room, and the room temp is around 57 F (13.9C).


For those concerned about battery drop... An Alkaline D cell has over 20,000 mAH in it, and the test depletes less than 5% of the capacity.


These are not those tiny cells you are used to dealing with...


As time permits, I will add data using a constant voltage power supply, set to 3.1V and also plot the output vs. voltage input, after the LED temperatue has stabilized (takes about an hour to really fully stabilize).


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## ABTOMAT

*Re: MagLite 2C LED drop-in Technical Review*

What I meant was that the switch/bulb tower assemblies of the complete C/D lights could have been redesigned to allow for heasinking, or designed with an integrated LED. Although probably the focus system would have to be much more restricted.

The new LED models just being incans with a drop-in is just an awful case of shortcutting, given the oppertunity. I can't believe designing the all-new AA lights took all their R&D capacity over the last couple years.


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## PhotonWrangler

*Re: MagLite 2C LED drop-in Technical Review*

Interesting tests, Newbie. Thanks.

I tooo am disappointed to see that the runtime at >50% brightness is severely curtailed as a trade-off to avoid the need for a heatsink. I have to give them credit though for making something inexpensive that protects itself from thermal damage. Given that the average user only uses their light for a few minutes at a time, the light duty cycle should allow for good brightness most of the time.

This would seem to rule out it's use for applications like caving or firefighting though.


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## fieldops

*Re: MagLite 2C LED drop-in Technical Review*

I think we are slowly learning a bit more on these drop ins. I was dissappointed by the results of Newbie's tests. It seems to confirm some of our earlier fears about this item. I was hoping for good extended usage with the D cell lights, but this thermal protection kicking in quickly throws a monkey wrench in the whole thing. If it dims down so soon, it kills my requirement for extended usage. Having to come up with a new heatsink mod on a newly introduced product is hardly an endearing proposition. I must admit, I kind of expected more from MAG. Oh well, its early in the game, so I guess we'll just watch and see where all this leads. I'm still looking forward to the new Mini MAG. That looks like a nice one to try. Especially for under 30$.


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## Empath

*Re: MagLite 2C LED drop-in Technical Review*

My thoughts on a heatsink in the form of a washer shape device obviously won't work; at least not with the focus mechanism as is.


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## NewBie

*Re: MagLite 2C LED drop-in Technical Review*

Okay, I hit another Walmart and scored some stuff:
























As it turns out, I opened this Maglite 2D 3W LED, really hoping to see some innovative heatsinking, and all I found was just a standard Maglite with the LED module in it:






One of the funniest things I found, is they still include the incandescent spare in the base of the MagLite LED 2D 3W.

Yes, it dims just like the LED module does when placed in a regular MagLite.


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## wwglen

*Re: MagLite 2C LED drop-in Technical Review*

Even dimmed it will probably be bright enough for extended run times.

Question:

Does the battery current drop as the protection kicks in?

Thanks.

wwglen


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## NewBie

*Re: MagLite 2C LED drop-in Technical Review*



wwglen said:


> Even dimmed it will probably be bright enough for extended run times.
> 
> Question:
> 
> Does the battery current drop as the protection kicks in?
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> wwglen




Yes, the current drops *alot* from cold to hot (72.7C or 161 F), in a cold ambient (I've been running in 45-55F ambient). Even the 10C difference makes a surprisingly big impact. I would expect these MagLite LED modules and MagLite LED flashlights to not perform as well in a warmer area of the country. When the module is hot, soaking them with alot of with cold spray causes the light output to jump back to when you first turned it on, and the current goes right back up at the same time.

In case anyone needs the SKU's to look around Walmarts in their area:


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## 4sevens

*Re: MagLite 2C LED drop-in Technical Review*

Unbelieveable. You'd figure with mag innovation they would find a efficient
way to move heat to those HUGE aluminum bodies. At that price if there
were head pipes moving head along the side of the bodies I'd buy them.


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## NewBie

*Re: MagLite 2C LED drop-in Technical Review*

From the packaging of the Maglite 3W LED Upgrade, for those who want to know:


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## ViReN

*Re: MagLite 2C LED drop-in Technical Review*

WOW... Amazingly ... :sigh: Dumb  .... Fenix and others could do a MUCH better job as compared with Mag Light.... Oh.. but then Fenix cost more too...

it would be interesting to MOD the Module itself for different housings surrounded by Copper & Heat Sink Paste... ... another alternative would be remove the Emitter and place it on some other good heat sink mounting... as i believe the casing design might not allow much of heat flow and is making space for the Electronics....


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## ViReN

*Re: MagLite 2C LED drop-in Technical Review*

The Main Reasons I believe for mag 'behaving' like this is perhaps
1) If they come out with a ALL NEW Mag lights... their loyal buyers would be 'hating' Mags... so to keep them happy... they just had a 'drop-in'
2) Mag could utilize this oppurtuinity for a later stage by coming up with a "ALL NEW & Improved" lights... which wont have 'backword compatibility' .. thus earning them more $$$


----------



## NewBie

Here is the MagLite 4D 3W LED module, you can see the switcher running (ripple), at about 200KHz:







The ones that "buck" are not just resistored like some have said.


.


----------



## fieldops

I first want to say thanks to Newbie for his extensive testing, as well as, his forking over good money to do it! Its much appreciated! 

I'm again dissappointed that the new MAG LED lights themselves offer no additional heatsinking. 

Oh well. I guess it is what it is. Many of the modders here will no doubt have interesting mods on this. Its just a darn shame to have to mod a newly released "innovative product". I look forward to what some of the great tech people here on CPF come up with. 

Thanks again Newbie :thumbsup:


----------



## NewBie

fieldops said:


> Thanks again Newbie :thumbsup:



Hey no sweat!

I've just got a waveform off the MagLite 3D LED 3W module. Notice I had to crank up the vertical scale to see the switcher ripple, so instead of being 500mV per division, it is at 10mV per division, so it has roughly 30mV of ripple (much less than the others), and it is switching around 333KHz:


----------



## wquiles

Newbe - outstanding :bow:

Thanks much for the work (and money!) spent on this :goodjob: 

Will


----------



## greg_in_canada

Thanks for the nice investigation.

I don't know why people are so surprised and disappointed. We knew these were going to be drop-in compatible with old mag lights. We saw a picture of what one looked like quite a while ago. So there is no big surprise that the heatsinking is poor.

The 2AA and 3AA lights are the all-new designs. So the heatsinking should be proper in those. I'm interested to see how those will measure up.

Greg


----------



## cslinger

As a group of enthusiests we are looking at these lights with a very critical eye. Now that aside, what is the practial impact of these lights/drop ins?

For the average consumer/light user will these drop ins not provide as good if not better light then the standard models while also providing a more robust "bulb" as well as as good if not better run time? So are they not a pretty big improvement over the standard MAG for the masses. 

Yes I have been spoiled by Surefire, HDS and hell even Nuwai/Fenix etc. but for a robust beat around utility light will these MAG LEDs not provide the average Joe a good light superior to the MAGLITE they are buying now, for a very little price increase? Not to mention making LED light sources much more mainstream.

These are as much questions as they are statements. 

Chris


----------



## NewBie

I know everyone likes a beamshot layout.

I'm currently working on them, here is the first teaser:


----------



## AlexGT

Good work!

So maybe the Everled is still a better option right? I picked one up today but when I was about to pay I decided to leave the Led bulb for after a CPF review.

How about some beamshots? How good is the tint? What bin is the emmiter? Is the output regulated? Estimated runtime? etc

I was going to get a 3 cell to power a 4 AA nimh with some overdrive but after reading this I might not, and get the everled instead.

Need more reviews! Good work

AlexGT


----------



## AlexGT

Thanks newbie!

keep up the good work!

AlexGT


----------



## mdocod

on the bright side- since these modules are designed to operate in poorly heat sinked senarios- they may work as nice drop-ins for other alkaline powered cheap flashlights.

if the sockets in maglights were machined from metal rather than molded from plastic, then the heat would transfer much better. 

like a KIU socket but with a PR base and a hollow section for the spring/cam mechanism to ride on. .. just a thought...


funny thing to me is it says on the packaging.. "patent pending" for the electonics circuit that controls the LED... Would be really funny if that one slips through the patent office... considering that thermal managment systems that can "tune down" the performance of electronic devices have been around for many years., dating back to power amplifiers, computer proccessors and many other systems.. not to mention- current regulation is nothing new..


----------



## asdalton

*Re: MagLite 2C LED drop-in Technical Review*



Empath said:


> My thoughts on a heatsink in the form of a washer shape device obviously won't work; at least not with the focus mechanism as is.



How about using one (or more) of those heavy, braided copper ground wires to connect the lamp socket to the body? It wouldn't be the greatest heat path, but it would be better than air--and it would allow the focusing mechanism to still work.


----------



## webley445

mdocod said:


> on the bright side- since these modules are designed to operate in poorly heat sinked senarios- they may work as nice drop-ins for other alkaline powered cheap flashlights.


 
Not so, saw a post earlier tonight about someone doing just that and it did not fit in their light, will all depend on the light, but I'm sure we will soon have a list to reference of torches that will accept the MagLed.

From the teaser pic it looks like the modules are all pretty much the same on brightness regardless of cell capacity. Am I wrong?


----------



## ABTOMAT

The drop-in module design doesn't bother me, since they appear to be doing OK inside a fairly limited envelope. But the lack of _any_ additional changes to the complete D/C lights strikes me as just plain odd. I realize the LED AA lights are all new--I'd guess this has more to do with the fact that a widely focusable 3W couldn't be had any other way rather than innovation.

Unlike Viren, I don't think they have any conspiratorial motives. Using drop-ins in their existing lights means no changes to the production line, part supply, and even basic packaging and instructions. Faster onto retail shelves. I can understand this. HOWEVER, for a company with the resources of Mag-Lite to do so little with the first new flashlight in about 22 years (honest, look it up) seems shortsighted.

Why is this? I doubt that technical difficulty or design cost reasons were behind it, after all Mag is the largest flashlight-only company in the world. Some personal, totally uninformed guess possibilities:

1. Getting caught with their pants down? Mag-Lite could have been totally complacent and assumed that they couldn't get overtaken simply with new technology. After all, they've had 22 years to think up something new, so I doubt that if they had been working on new lights all this time this would be all they could come up with. They could have had a comprehensive design ready into production to go long before the LED's became available in quantity. Assuming nothing like that was in the works, making a dropin-based light was the absolute fastest way to bring an LED to market.

2. Bad planning? Sort of related to the above, maybe they waited to work out the details until a large enough supply of cheap (probably generic Chinese) quality LEDs became available? Again, a dropin was the fastest way to go.

3. Maglica's personality? Ol' Tony has appeared to be a very ridgid, fixed in his ways type of person. After all, the newest 2 D-cell Mag-LED body made on May 29 of 2006 has no functional differences from the first model produced in LA in early 1979. I've read articles that had veiled comments from company sources that made it sound like many developments within the company weren't making it past his desk.

4. Ka-ching, ka-ching? The most probable reason is that this is simply the most cost effective way to make an LED C/D Mag. It's not unthinkable that they'd only be concerned with the bottom line and assume (maybe correctly) that customers will buy the new lights simply because they're LEDs.

If number 4 is the case, I think it's very shortsighted, as I've stated above. Given the opportunity they have here there's no reason not to make some changes that would benifit them in the long term. As LED lights develop the new Mag-LEDs will quickly become outdated, especially for a perceived "new technology." PR-base flashlights from any company haven't changed in 20 years, but LEDs are a rapidly expanding market. I think that this was Mag's chance to make a big splash with LEDs. This should have been the time they created a new platform that they can sell for the next 20 years. Instead, they have a handcuffed update to their oldest flashlight. If they ever do come out with a new-design C/D Mag-LED flashlight they won't have nearly the success promoting it. After all, what would the theme be? "Because our first LED light wasn't enough!"?

All this said, I am looking forward to the AA models. At least a good deal of thought appears to have gone into them, and they are a totally new design.


----------



## asdalton

*Re: MagLite 2C LED drop-in Technical Review*



Empath said:


> My thoughts on a heatsink in the form of a washer shape device obviously won't work; at least not with the focus mechanism as is.



How about using one (or more) of those heavy, braided copper ground wires to connect the lamp socket to the body? It wouldn't be the greatest heat path, but it would be better than air--and it would allow the focusing mechanism to still work.


----------



## NewBie

Added a few lights to the array. Beamshots are after about 25 minutes runtime here. The LED MagLites were alot brighter at the beginning. All lights have new cells, and cost quite a handsome sum to go fresh. Note the Fenix L2P shown here is quite the cream of the crop...


----------



## idleprocess

There isn't a good deal of room in a maglite head for additional heatsinking if you want to retain the original cam-focusing assembly:


----------



## NewBie

Here we go, one of those for your eyes only, which reveals
the secrets and the shortcommings, and explains a great
many things...


























Potting this puppy might help alot...but keep the potting out of the contacts.

I really cannot believe MagLite actually did this...


----------



## TENMMIKE

if you go to HDS site and read in the artical section you will see what their thougts on the patenting of L.E.D.lights (3rd from top).kind of a interesting read...BTW excellant post newbie...http://www.hdssystems.com/Articles.html


mdocod said:


> on the bright side- since these modules are designed to operate in poorly heat sinked senarios- they may work as nice drop-ins for other alkaline powered cheap flashlights.
> 
> if the sockets in maglights were machined from metal rather than molded from plastic, then the heat would transfer much better.
> 
> like a KIU socket but with a PR base and a hollow section for the spring/cam mechanism to ride on. .. just a thought...
> 
> 
> funny thing to me is it says on the packaging.. "patent pending" for the electonics circuit that controls the LED... Would be really funny if that one slips through the patent office... considering that thermal managment systems that can "tune down" the performance of electronic devices have been around for many years., dating back to power amplifiers, computer proccessors and many other systems.. not to mention- current regulation is nothing new..


----------



## chevrofreak

NewBie said:


> I really cannot believe MagLite actually did this...


 

I can. :thumbsdow


----------



## NewBie

I have not had a chance to characterize the module yet, but I will try and get some curves on it over the next few days. I can tell you it still works at 1.45V in, but it will only pull 182mA out of the cell. As such, this is well below the 0.8V of 2 depleted D sized Alkaline cells in series.


----------



## BentHeadTX

Thanks for taking apart the drop-in, it is an outstanding example of "F-bomb engineering". How could ANY engineer come up with something so poorly protected from heat? Granted, the R&D engineers at Mag have been sleeping for 22 years but at least one of them should of been paying attention. Luxeons have been around for 5 years and doing a search on google would of mentioned "heat" and "correct heat sinking" if they spent 15 minutes reading. 

The first time I ran into a Luxeon was on hardocp.com (computer overclocking site) They had a picture of a Luxeon Star and noted "LED with a HEAT SINK"! back in May 2001. The star on a Luxeon is a pretty good indicator that the LED requires decent heat sinking to operate. I wonder how long the thermal regulator will last cooking at 75C all day in a 4D Mag? 

$19 for a drop-in is a great price, but then adding the cost for Artic Silver epoxy and woven copper line in an attempt to keep the output going is not worth it to me.  Maybe their 2AA light will be better but it will have to compete with the $35 Nuwaii X-3 or $44 Fenix L2T. It will be funny if the minimag outputs more light than a 4D Mag-LED after running it for a few minutes.


----------



## ViReN

*Re: MagLite 2C LED drop-in Technical Review*



ViReN said:


> it would be interesting to MOD the Module itself for different housings surrounded by Copper & Heat Sink Paste... ... another alternative would be remove the Emitter and place it on some other good heat sink mounting... as *i believe the casing design might not allow much of heat flow and is making space for the Electronics....*



I _had_ thought so ....  .. thanks NewBie for confirming the same.

now.. Let's remove the electronics from the modules (wonder if it is as efficient as others).... and build a alltogether "New" heat sinks....and start modding again.... until... Mag comes up with a "All New" 2D, 3D etc versions... 

but then.... doh.... we already have hotlips and other beautiful heatsinks... 

Also NewBie, could you please confirm that the material is Brass...

I feel sorry .... but even if they could have put copper 'tablet' inside untill the 'PR Flange', the scope could have been much more by applying 'extetnal' heat sinking.

enclosing the electronics in a brass shell and putting over the LED isnt what most of CPFer's would have thought of...

Now just one more (probably) dissappointment is awaited ... let's see how it 'performs' and wether the circuit is a true regulating circuit or just a boost circuit .... 

.. here again, it being as a simple boost circuit is more probable, as Mag Light has specific modules for 2, 3, 4 cells .... or _may be.. they have configured things differently???_


----------



## ViReN

ABTOMAT said:


> <snip>
> * Unlike Viren, I don't think they have any conspiratorial motives.* Using drop-ins in their existing lights means no changes to the production line, part supply, and even basic packaging and instructions. Faster onto retail shelves. I can understand this. HOWEVER, for a company with the resources of Mag-Lite to do so little with the first new flashlight in about 22 years (honest, look it up) seems shortsighted.
> <snip>



 just to clarify, I to dont think there is any conspiracy ... 

what i feel is that it's just the huge market that they want to keep happy by not making an 'innovation' right away.... because you see... they have a huge userdatabase who are using the MagLights.... 

If i was a user of Mag 2D light, i would have been very unhappy if it just got obsolute because of LED...

what Mag has done is that they 'might' have developed a optimum compromise between the light output, LED, electronics and most importantly 'backward compatibility'.

they also have kept option open to bring a 'all new' and 'improved' (perhaps better heat sink'd modules/light itself) down the line.


----------



## TinderBox (UK)

I think we need to come up with a list of PR BASED drop-ins.

And evaluate their thermal and electronic, properties.

the general pubilc are going to buy the maglite LED drop-ins, because they dont know any better.

but we on CPF do, and their are a lot of good alternative LED drop-ins.

I only have 1W EVERLED`s and PR SMJLED`s

regards.


----------



## john2551

NewBie said:


> I know everyone likes a beamshot layout.
> 
> I'm currently working on them, here is the first teaser:


 
Jarhead,

Do you have a Diamond 3w bulb in a 3D to add to this mix?

John


----------



## Pellidon

My WAG (Wild A** Guess) would be that the fact the led just clips into the contact points will cause some power loss especially during heatup? Also repeated heatings and coolings will probably cause some oxidaion or some kind of crudding up of the contact points and degrade the operation.

The center tab between the two led ear clips I guess is the ground connection from the board to the shell? A small dimple is the contact point? Not good. 

One of my machines I service at work uses a 1141 auto tail lamp for a light source. The lamp is semi enclosed in a small metal box with limited ventilation. The heat buildup from the lamp causes some revisions of the model to become erratic as they just have a plated metal clip touching the ground shell of the lamp for the negative connection. 

It will be interesting to see how these units fare in a few weeks or months of use. If I get unlazy I might hard wire the LED and ground.


----------



## martytoo

Newbie,

Why do you have two beam shots for Mag 2D LED Bulb (to the right of the Inova beam) ??

Also, has anyone thought about the fact that the lower output with increased heat will likely extend battery life? 

And, isn't it true that even though the measured beam is 50% of maximum when hot, this is just about the limit of what we can discern in brightness difference when using a light. That is, we will notice that the light is a bit less bright once it heats up, but only a barely perceptible difference will be seen.

Has anyone been able to make beam shots of the Mags cold versus hot? I think that would be interesting. ??


----------



## NewBie

martytoo said:


> Newbie,
> 
> Why do you have two beam shots for Mag 2D LED Bulb (to the right of the Inova beam) ??
> 
> And, isn't it true that even though the measured beam is 50% of maximum when hot, this is just about the limit of what we can discern in brightness difference when using a light. That is, we will notice that the light is a bit less bright once it heats up, but only a barely perceptible difference will be seen.
> 
> Has anyone been able to make beam shots of the Mags cold versus hot? I think that would be interesting. ??




Because I have two 2D Mag 3W LED drop-in bulbs. I fully expected to have to ruin one when revealing it's internal guts.


Brightness difference, in a side by side, I have seen folks that can just make out 20% when I test them.


I did notice the tint shifts as they get hot.

Okay, here are two of these 2D 3W MagLite LED drop-ins, side by side. At the start they are equal brightness, very slightly different tints. I just set one up here for about 15 minutes, and let it run, and then turned on the other, and got a picture within the first minute.


----------



## Brighteyez

Newbie,

Just wanted to throw in another expression of gratitude for all the work that you've done! This is great stuff!


----------



## download

Great report! :goodjob:


----------



## martytoo

NewBie said:


> Because I have two 2D Mag 3W LED drop-in bulbs. I fully expected to have to ruin one when revealing it's internal guts.
> 
> 
> Brightness difference, in a side by side, I have seen folks that can just make out 20% when I test them.
> 
> 
> I did notice the tint shifts as they get hot.
> 
> Okay, here are two of these 2D 3W MagLite LED drop-ins, side by side. At the start they are equal brightness, very slightly different tints. I just set one up here for about 15 minutes, and let it run, and then turned on the other, and got a picture within the first minute.


 
Thanks, NewBie,

Great work.


----------



## AlexGT

Thanks Newbie for doing this in depth review, Do you have an everled or a diamond to compare it to?

Thanks!
AlexGT


----------



## ViReN

Thanks NewBie for a great Indepth Analysis and review


----------



## PhotonWrangler

Thanks for your great continued follow-up in this thread, Newbie!

Gosh, so many questions - 

My Great-Light M*g clone has a heavy aluminum disk which screws into the body and has a hole in the middle where the lamps drops in with a little molded plastic holder to keep it in place. I think it'll be easier to modify one of these than a M*g for better heatsinking since there's lots more metal available in the thermal path. All I have to do is come up with a metal version of the little plastic insert, then it's 100% metal from the lamp to the body of the flashlight.

Wouldn't it be funny if everyone ran out and bought Great-light clones to drop their MagLEDs into? Not that I'd ever suggest such a thing...


----------



## metalhed

A couple of thoughts on what I see as the 'big picture' here.

1) So much for Mag's talk of 'innovation' and 'development'. These modules appear to do nothing to advance the art of flashlight LEDs. They are no better than existing, off-the-shelf technology (perhaps worse). While I completely understand the difficult position Mag is in marketing-wise, it is no excuse for what appears to be a poorly designed product...especially given their slowness to market with these.

2) The heat sinking issue has me wondering whether Mag is looking at protecting their replacement bulb market. I wonder what the life-span of these drop-ins will be given their virtually uncontrolled heat. Do they intend to continue to sell bulbs as consumables? Is it that big a profit center for them? They know better...LEDs don't need to be consumables. That's part of the beauty of LEDs, long life...and they appear to be ignoring that fact.

3) I now know the real reason Mag has never gone public...they aren't that well managed a company. I know, I know, it really has more to do with Mr. Maglica's personality and personal values...but still. I don't care how many lights they sell, it sounds to me as if they muffed this one...and after a l-o-o-o-ong timeout to boot.


Just my two gilders tho'...:shrug:


----------



## chimo

I just noticed this thread. 

Great write up, Newbie! Thanks for taking the time (and expense) to do this. 

Seems like the bean-counters at Mag won the argument over the C/D Cell implemantations. Perhaps if they sell enough of these, they may develop a better designed (heatsinked) solution for the C & D Cell lights. 

On the other hand, they are geared for the mass public and a long as they can't tell the difference, Mag will likely be happy producing these. Perhaps Mag wanted to keep the modders happy by leaving lots of room for improvement.  

Paul


----------



## Empath

I've been wracking my brain to figure out why it would be constructed with just the thin shell instead of a higher density heat drawing medium. Surely the little cost savings, compared to what they've put into the circuitry for current and heat regulation would be minimal. The logistics must involve more than the insignificant expense. Then, there was the _Ah, ha_ moment.

There is NO heatsink capability in the Mag C and D cell lights. The big aluminum body is totally isolated thermally from the lamp socket area by plastic construction, with no readily obvious methods of adding heatsink capability, due to the design of the focusing mechanism. All those Luxeon PR lamps we've been putting into the Mag-Lites are simply throw-away, make believe they're alright devices, appearing to be okay since what we see is a big aluminum flashlight that ought to siphon off any heat problem. It just isn't so. That's the reason my EverLeds, and Terralux PRs in my Mags have lost so much shine, and the reason my Diamond will likely meet the same fate. Since the time they were installed they've been slowly cooking themselves. The heat problem had not been addressed AT ALL.

Mag's drop-in is apparently the first and only PR LED, of the Luxeon type, that has addressed the problem, to my knowledge. They, realizing that there is no place for the heat to go, have sunk their entire effort into the heat problem by their current/temperature compensation method. A good heat sink would have been better, or a combination thereof, but the heatsink simply wasn't available..... period. Unless a redesign or modification was used, the only method of heat control would have to be through cutting back the power as the heat increased. This, they did.

If they had used more density than the thin shell container, they could likely have increased the time before critical temperature was reached by perhaps a few seconds. That would have been desirable. If there was a heatsink to draw the heat off the "higher density" canister, it would have been even more so, but it's not there. Without the heatsink to draw the heat off, then a higher density base would have held the heat longer, with nowhere for it to go, and increased the response time before the critical temperature had subsided. Slower time before critical temperature is reached is good. Slower time before the heat dissipates is bad.

Incidentally, Metalhed, can you tell me someone that has introduced a PR LED for Mag-Lites that have addressed the heat issue better than Mag?


----------



## TinderBox (UK)

spot on empath.

their must be some way to get the heat from the bulb holder to the wall of the maglite.

I`ve had my maglite to bits about 20 times, trying to figuer out a way.

I`m still working on the problem.

regards.


----------



## NewBie

Measuring the MagLite circuit was a little squirrley.

The reason why is that it is not very efficient, and it produces lots of it's own heat all by itself (no LED). 

I measured it with the circuit board in open air, with an LED that was remotely located, the LED was very agressively cooled.

The LED I used for the test with the Mag circuit has a little high of a Vf, I will be repeating the test later on with an LED of a lower Vf. I expect the circuit efficiency to increase a little with a lower Vf bin.

It was neat to watch the circuit crank up the output power when you lightly blow on it, it responds very quickly.

I would expect the circuit to deliver more power in the module, as it looks like the temperature measurement point would end up cooler in the beginning. But once the module heats up, it would crank the power down anyhow.

I may end up having to modify a MagLite, with the module mounted in it, to get more realisitic numbers.


----------



## TinderBox (UK)

I did some tests on my MAG 3D,

with the bulb holder exposed to the air at 21c

I ran my 1W EVERLED for 15 minutes

with my DMM with an K type temp probe.

I measured the temp of the bulb screw cap at 63c

and the brass rivet on the side was at a temp was at 55c

regards.


----------



## nikon

TinderBox (UK) said:


> spot on empath.
> 
> their must be some way to get the heat from the bulb holder to the wall of the maglite.
> 
> I`ve had my maglite to bits about 20 times, trying to figuer out a way.
> 
> I`m still working on the problem.
> 
> regards.


 
Drill and thread the center of a O-sink or similar aluminum slug so that it performs the function of the bulb retaining ring. This will connect the module directly to the flashlight body. For even better heat dissipation. don't drill the hole all the way through the O-sink and mount the LED diractly to the sink, leaving the circuitry in the bulb socket. Then cut off the focusing section on the back of the reflector and focus as you would with most Mag mods using an O-sink.

Elektrolumens also sells a heat sink which could be used for this purpose.....http://www.king-cart.com/cgi-bin/cart.cgi


----------



## Brighteyez

So why is there all of this Mag bashing when other PR solutions like the EverLeds, Terralux, and Diamond, have been out on the market all this time with so many members of this site praising those products?



Empath said:


> All those Luxeon PR lamps we've been putting into the Mag-Lites are simply throw-away, make believe they're alright devices, appearing to be okay since what we see is a big aluminum flashlight that ought to siphon off any heat problem. It just isn't so. That's the reason my EverLeds, and Terralux PRs in my Mags have lost so much shine, and the reason my Diamond will likely meet the same fate. Since the time they were installed they've been slowly cooking themselves. The heat problem had not been addressed AT ALL.
> 
> Mag's drop-in is apparently the first and only PR LED, of the Luxeon type, that has addressed the problem, to my knowledge. They, realizing that there is no place for the heat to go, have sunk their entire effort into the heat problem by their current/temperature compensation method. A good heat sink would have been better, or a combination thereof, but the heatsink simply wasn't available..... period. Unless a redesign or modification was used, the only method of heat control would have to be through cutting back the power as the heat increased. This, they did.


----------



## Empath

Brighteyez said:


> So why is there all of this Mag bashing when other PR solutions like the EverLeds, Terralux, and Diamond, have been out on the market all this time with so many members of this site praising those products?



"So why" is difficult to answer, since it doesn't seem to be based on logic nor facts. The psychology involved can be seen in most other product oriented hobbies. I couldn't offer a single reason, but it probably does help create a self-illusion of having acquired expertise and good taste.

I've enjoyed the EverLeds, Terralux, and the Diamond as well. Still, the question of "where goes the heat", seems to have only one answer. The heat doesn't go anywhere, unless they've been making use of some, until now, unknown method or cooling it down.


----------



## TinderBox (UK)

I people are upset because, other drop in led manufactures make only the bulbs that go in other manufactures products.

maglite has been making flashlights for 30 years.

and when they got round to making an led drop-in.

it`s output is restricted by their own flashlight desigh, by not alowing the heat to be disipated to the outside of the flashlight.

you think they would have found some way of better heat sinking the bulb.

anyway thats my thoughts.

regards.


----------



## NewBie

Hitting the circuit with chill spray, causes the current to jump up, and as it heats up, it draws more and more current, then it rapidly kicks down.

At the peak (frosty cold), input current hits 1.952A, and output current hit 0.952A. Output power was 4.76W and input power is 6.04W. Efficiency in this state is 78.8%. This high power spot climbs from cold, hits a peak, and rapidly drops back down. I do believe it probably happens right at the same point that my chilled runtime plot I posted earlier peaks way up.


----------



## Brighteyez

My apologies, I should have noted that my question was meant to be rhetorical. I had a feeling that I should have mentioned that soon after I clicked on the Submit button. And the question was probably more of a commentary on the Mag bashing and whining posts that I'm seeing related to this product. While I could understand if it was someone new with pie in the sky expectations that could never be realized, but some of these folks have been around for a while, and knew exactly what was coming from Mag soon after the SHOT show in Vegas.

The other solutions have been around for years, as has the use of the Sears Endurance Lux PR module. The first time the heat issue was brought up when used in a Mag was in Doug's review of the Sears module in FLR. Oddly enough, no one seems to be complaining heat issues with those othered revered replacement modules while complaining about heat with this product.

For my purposes, it's not really much of an issue anyway since I seldom have a high intensity flashlight on for 5+ minutes at a time (that's what lower powered secondary lights are for.) And right now, I'm not so sure, but the 3 cell module might even be giving my Stinger a run for it's money in the throw department.



Empath said:


> "So why" is difficult to answer, since it doesn't seem to be based on logic nor facts.


----------



## Brighteyez

Perhaps, this is the reason for the precaution about not using rechargeables with these modules. A set of legit D sized NiCDs can provide an awful lot of current.



NewBie said:


> Hitting the circuit with chill spray, causes the current to jump up, and as it heats up, it draws more and more current, then it rapidly kicks down.


----------



## TinderBox (UK)

hello nikon.

so you suggest in disabling the abilty to focus and installing a big heat-sink.

or am i missing something.

I am trying to keep the abilty to focus, which makes things a million times harder to do.

regards.

ps. nikon link not working.


----------



## metalhed

> Originally Posted by Empath
> 
> Incidentally, Metalhed, can you tell me someone that has introduced a PR LED for Mag-Lites that have addressed the heat issue better than Mag?



No, but I can tell you why not.

The manufacturers of PR-based LED solutions have been designing a drop-in replacement for an existing incandescent bulb in an existing body...the Maglite. These folks weren't in a position to manufacture entire lights, so adapted the existing products to accept a LED solution. I think that most of the producers of these drop-ins would admit that they had limitations, mostly heat-related.

But the limitations were imposed by the host light that was being designed around...the Mag.

Now Mag comes along and does what? They accept the same design limitations as the little drop-in makers...all the while touting their 'research abd development' efforts. Bah...

Mag had all the opportunity here to do it right, and they didn't. I don't believe for a moment that a heatsinking pedestal couldn't have been designed to replace the existing incandescent one. I believe some of our CPF modders have achieved this. What's so tuff about it?

The way I read it, someone at Mag (maybe the King himself) isn't yet sold on LED technology. Disappointing that others with less resources must be relied upon to further the development of LED flashlights.


----------



## nikon

TinderBox.....My suggestion doesn't disable the focusing ability at all. It doesn't take that much movement to go from wide to narrow focus and you've got all the range you need simply by turning the head, which moves the reflector back and forth relative to the LED. All the Mag cam does is to make the process faster.

If you want to keep cam focusing, you could cut away most of the bottom projection of the reflector, but leave enough material to form two or three lobes. Then add a corresponding number of ramps to the top of the heat sink (or cut them into the sink). I hope this picture will make clear what I'm suggesting.....


----------



## Phaserburn

Anyone know if the reflector in the Magled complete lights is exactly the same shape as the ones in the incan models?


----------



## idleprocess

As far as I know, The C/D MagLED flashlights are exactly the same as their incandescent counterparts - save for the light source. They advertise the interchangability on the package and I think they still give you a spare bulb in the tailcap.

As others have mentioned, there's simply _nowhere to go_ for extra heatsinking using the existing pedestal design. There's a good reason why critical steps in modifying a Maglite for 3W/5W LEDs running full power are *remove the pedestal assembly* and *install a heatsink*.

My main disappointment with the design is that there's a LED module for every cell count. I can understand avoiding the complexity and expense of the EverLED (boost+buck), but it seems that the most you should need is a 2-cell (boost) and 3+ cell (buck) version ... or 2-, 3-, and 4+ cell versions if the 3-cell voltage curve doesn't quite work all the time in pure buck operation.

Lost in almost every CPF debate about Maglite is that they sell to the general public and seem to get by on their hard-built brand name alone rather than performance or value. I suspect that Maglite came out with LED mostly because upstarts like Inova and faster-moving traditional competitors like Brinkmann were starting to cut into their market share; even the battery manufacturers are turning out LED flashlights. Maglite produced the magLED because they had to, not because they wanted to.


----------



## copiertech

that drop in would probably work well on the old smith and wesson 3d mag-a-like, the bulb holder is a decent thickness of aluminium and well attached to the battery tube. shame I cant take photos as i threw it away on friday, replaced the incan with some 130kmcd 10mms for longer runtime and i was sick of replacing bulbs every month.


----------



## NewBie

Okay, I took an uber low Vf G bin Luxeon I and re-ran the same test, under the same type of conditions as mentioned before:










It was interesting to see the temperature hysteresis and thermal time constant interactions. Without the circuit mounted in the normal PR housing, the thermal time constant is faster, and you can watch it oscillate a bit, until it stabilizes.


----------



## mtnwalker

Maybe the Nite-Ize bunch actually had the best answer- a lower power led bulb to "drop-in" to the existing flashlight design...that maximizes the flashlights overall strength/tough design aspect, and adds a battery life increase, and later they might introduce a kit to actually add a heatsink and a brighter bulb?
I had hoped Mag would do it all in one stroke, oh well.....


----------



## ABTOMAT

I think one reason no one complains about previous drop-ins is that they're very much "hobby" devices. An unapproved, do-it-yourself mod for with a "let's hope it works" mentality. The Mag thing is a very visable, official, big-name product.

Like others have said, I don't think Mag did such a bad job on the drop-in. After all, they have to make the things in the millions AND make them reliable. I wish they had used a thicker body but that may very well have raised costs or production time higher than wanted.

Now that I've thought about it, I think one reason they dropped the ball on the turnkey lights is simple: No easy way to use their _patented_ cam focusing, which is the main selling feature after overall construction. Lots of flashlights have focusing reflectors, just nothing like Mag's. Without that design they get closes to being just another face in the crowd.

But the fact that they had such a long time to develop a new fancy focus (like they did with the AA lights) and didn't touch a thing is unforgivable, IMHO.


----------



## HDS_Systems

Many have wondered why Mag has come out with PR LED bulbs of the current design. May I play Devil's advocate for a moment? Allow me to suggest a few reasons:

1) Mag has a very large investment in a highly automated production line. Such production lines are quite expensive to design and install and the installation costs must be amortized over a very large number of flashlights in order to pay for themselves. Unless you have a very good economic reason to make a change to such a production line, it is just not cost effective to change it. This production line, and the high volume of flashlights manufactured by Mag is the reason why their flashlights are so inexpensive. Therefore, an LED solution that does not require any alteration of the existing production line is very desirable.

2) The average Mag customer is not a highly sophisticated flashaholic. They are only interested in an apparently high quality even if basic product for a relatively low price. Mag has spent a lot of time and effort on building their brand and has done a admirable job of doing so. I will ignore the apparently predatory legal actions toward competitors for the purposes of this discussion.

3) Heat and high power have always been a problem with LEDs. To prevent damage to the LED, temperatures must be regulated. If there is no appropriate thermal path, the only choice is to limit power. The typical Mag flashlight - at least all the ones I have seen - do not provide any significant thermal path from the PR socket to anywhere. The reflector is plastic and the PR socket holder is plastic. In other words, only a very poor thermal path exists.

4) The primary impression is made in the first few seconds of operation. When someone turns on a flashlight to identify an object - or to ascertain how bright the flashlight is - the first few seconds count. If the output drops dramatically - although smoothly - over the next several minutes it is not a significant issue and many users may not even notice a drop to 50% brightness if it takes place over several minutes.

5) The efficiency of the LED only has to be higher than the efficiency of the incandescent lightbulb it is replacing. If you assume the average KR-2 bulb produces 20 lumens per watt, the LED (after circuitry losses) only needs to produce 24 lumens per watt to get the job done. And you get all the reliability benefits of the LED - a generally long life and good end of battery life characteristics. Since the circuit is not potted, the shock resistance is dependent on the circuit orientation when the shock is applied - the inductor being the most likely failure point - but this is generally significantly better than an incandescent bulb when operating.

6) The market for PR LED bulbs for a good price is huge. Since these bulbs are designed with thermal limiting, they can be used with any PR flashlight - not just Mag flashlights. And Mag has a substantial marketing and distribution system and is likely to be able to sell a huge number of these bulbs - easily eclipsing the sales of all previously existing brands.

7) If there was such a large market, why did Mag wait so long to produce these PR LEDs bulbs and introduce flashlights containing them? Most likely it was a limitation with the LED manufacturers. If - for the sake of discussion - you figure that Mag manufactures around a million flashlights a year, and they expect to have a 25% market penetration of the PR LED bulbs and flashlights, they need to be able to purchase a quarter of a million LEDs that match their specifications in order to enter production. Who could provide that many LEDs of a select set of bins until very recently? Probably no one.

8) The current solution buys Mag plenty of time to implement an alternate solution if desired. While they are selling the current solution they gain valuable statistical information about LEDs, they gather valuable manufacturing experience, they gather valuable marketing information, they allow the LED market to mature and all the time they are building their brand and making a profit.

CPF is not Mag's primary market and hence their chosen solution may seem strange or totally illogical. But consider the points and try to think about it from Mag's perspective and you may see the wisdom of their way.

Newbie, thanks for all your hard work in testing the new Mag PR LEDs and for publishing the data.

Henry.


----------



## thunderlight

Somewhat rhetorical questions:

How hot would the outside of the Mag get if a heatsink distributed heat to the outer walls of the Mag? Would a typical user be surprised by a flashlight that heats up over time, perhaps believing that this to be a product defect? [I realize that a typical Mag user would expect the lens and, perhaps, the bezel area to heat up because of previous experience with Mag incandescents.]

I would guess that Mag would have to figure out a way to isolate the head of the light from the rest of the body and warn users that the head heats up. A number of LED lights do provide this warning, but they seem to have a mechanism to prevent the heat from reaching the area of the light that you would generally hold. You probably don't want a flashlight that has to be handled with gloves.

Do the various heatsink mod suggestions prevent too much heat from reaching the main body of the light as opposed to the head of the flashlight?


----------



## mdocod

I have left my LEDbeam on for long durations in runtime tests- while being driven by NIMH (so driven relativally hard for the entire duration).... The head is basically a mag-clone, and the body is again, very similar- of cource- minus the focusing cam...

After hours on- the light was indeed very warm to the touch- however, it was not shockingly warm, not warm enough to burn yourself, in-fact- still very comfortable to hold... I don't think sinking the heat to the head would cause any suspicion amongst average users....

then again- I could be wrong about the average flashlight user- heh..

I have noticed that smaller LED lights, with less surface area, definetally get very hot when run for long periods of time... the big bodied mags just won't have that problem... The new AA LED mags coming out... now there's a different story. hehe.


----------



## wwglen

Looking at the power vs voltage curves I see ***NO*** regulation.

The regulation MAG brags about must be the thermal limiting regulation.

wwglen


----------



## idleprocess

Well-said, Henry. Solid analysis of real economic conditions and broad consumer interests/expectations are typically missing in these discussions.

The MagLED does not need to be a stellar performer to succeed. It need only last exceptionally long relative to light bulbs, be at least as bright, and be price-competitive with competitors' offerings. They can also be everywhere unlike their competitors.


----------



## NewBie

Some folks wanted a clearer picture of the custom LED in the MagLite drop-in, this should clear up the custom leads on the LED:






Here is the 4 Cell version of the drop-in:


----------



## luxlover

Henry,
Nice workup......as usual. You usually don't write this extensively. You must have had your Wheaties this morning before you started typing! 

By the way, do you think that I should sell MY wonderfully efficient and beautifully tinted U60, and _*TRADE* __*UP!*_ for one of these drop-ins?

Keep on truckin' (i.e. manufacturing/assembling),
 Jeff


----------



## Handlobraesing

wwglen said:


> Looking at the power vs voltage curves I see ***NO*** regulation.
> 
> The regulation MAG brags about must be the thermal limiting regulation.
> 
> wwglen



The 4D one actually pulls more current with three cells than four cells.


----------



## NewBie

The power side is nothing special, it is just a low efficiency non-synchronous buck, or low efficiency non-synchronous boost. Folks have been using circuits like this around here since 2002, but most have moved on to more efficient designs.

I'll not be getting into the proprietary circuit on the other side, I will leave that up to the end user to figure out on their own.

Now for modders, there are a few items in here that could be changed to improve the efficiency of the module, most notably is the schottky diode.

On the "power side" of the board, we have the 33uF Tantalum capacitor, 10uH inductor, and the 0.1 ohm sense resistor.


Okay, lets start identifying some of the semiconductors used on the power side:


4 Cell
S3G- Toshiba P-CH MOSFET part number TPC6107 (55 [email protected] Gate)

2 Cell
S2C- Toshiba N-CH MOSFET part number TPC6004 (32 [email protected] Gate)

2 Cell and 4 Cell
1L1 OnSemi Powermite Schottky Power Rectifier MBRM110L rated for 1A, 10V reverse voltage, 0.365 Vf @ 1A & 25C, Average power dissipation at 1A square wave 0.27W.


----------



## wwglen

The THREE cell takes LESS current from the batteries as the voltage goes down.

wwglen


----------



## goldenlight

*Re: MagLite 2C LED drop-in Technical Review*



CM said:


> It would not be a simple drop in solution anymore. What would be great is a totally brand new product unencumbered by decades of baggage. Not to say to scrap everything they've done. Rather, they could have modified the existing design and utilize it's incredible heatsinking capability of the large form factor 2C/2D bodies to give us a light that would outperform Surefire LED lights like the KL1/KL3, L2 etc. using cheaper mainstream alkalines or switch over to NiMH for higher performance. Since hitting the store shelves in the last several days, EVERYONE seems to be talking mods already with the heatsink being at the top of the list. Maybe the drop in is a transitional product and that Mag will eventually evolve their line towards something similar to what I've talked about.



My bet would be the chance of that are VERY slim. If they were going to do that, they've had the last 2-4 years to do it. And they never did any 'upgrades' to their incandescent C and D cell flashlights; (that I know of, at least). I think what you see is what you are going to get; and for a very long time, sadly enough, IMHO.

Maybe 10 years from now, when they've possibly driven a bunch of their competitors, producing superior lights, out of business, with their seemingly 'predatory patents' (IMHO)..... But that's another rant entirely....

Mag entered the LED market, kicking and screaming, very, very late, and with apparently a vastly inferior product, than their huge financial resources could EASILY have allowed.

As stated, they are using 2002 technology, but they seem IMHO to have patented everything dealing with LED flashlights except the word 'flashlight', as if Maglite *invented* regulated LED flashlights! (sorry,... ranting again.....hard to avoid it........must try harder.....!)

Is this an improvement over their existing lights? Yes, and it will doubtless be popular with the great masses, who will likely think it's the best thing since sliced bread. But for a little money in R&D, and probably 50-75 cents more per complete flashlight, they could have produced a VASTLY superior product.

Their drop-in modules could easily have been a kit with a heat sink and a replacement reflector, again for very little increase in cost per unit.

I feel like coining a new word: 'Magliteitis'.

Yes, I am very dissapointed. Let the modding begin! 

Last but certainly not least: what an outstanding technical review!!

Rant mode off, I guess....


----------



## Kryosphinx

*Re: MagLite 2C LED drop-in Technical Review*

It seems these PR drop-ins could be used in other lights too. Why limit them to maglites? There's gotta be some light out there that has adequate heatsinking for a PR based bulb.


----------



## ABTOMAT

*Re: MagLite 2C LED drop-in Technical Review*

A majority of PR-base lights out there have bases closer in side to an actual PR bulb, so the wider Mag base won't fit. But if you get lucky it could be a good deal.


----------



## NewBie

Another shot of the MagLite 3W LED module (3 cell shown here):








Internal board pictures:


----------



## NewBie

The standard step-down controller, without the MagLite modifcations, that is used on the MagLite 3 cell and 4 cell internal boards, and goes for 0.55 ea can be found here:

http://focus.ti.com/docs/prod/folders/print/tps64201.html


Datasheet is here:
http://focus.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/tps64201.pdf


----------



## ViReN

Great thing NewBie...

Just wondering, why didnt they have single solution for all the buck and single solution for all the boost.. alternately, they could have done away with a single Synchronous Buck/Boost configuration and could have built a Universal PR Bulb for 2 - 6 Cell Mag Lights.

isnt developing 3 - 4 different types of modules a waste of resources & energy.... and further makes things complex, especially when 'dumb' users would 'think' 2 Cell module could be 'brighter' if used in a 3 Cell Mag.


----------



## NewBie

ViReN said:


> Great thing NewBie...
> 
> Just wondering, why didnt they have single solution for all the buck and single solution for all the boost.. alternately, they could have done away with a single Synchronous Buck/Boost configuration and could have built a Universal PR Bulb for 2 - 6 Cell Mag Lights.
> 
> isnt developing 3 - 4 different types of modules a waste of resources & energy.... and further makes things complex, especially when 'dumb' users would 'think' 2 Cell module could be 'brighter' if used in a 3 Cell Mag.




I have several ideas on that, but no compelling one. It may be that with one solution, it is rather difficult with different efficiencies, to make the thermal control work right, without too many extra parts.


----------



## CM

OOOPS, never mind.


----------



## chimo

Great work on this Newbie. That was a quick ID of the controller chip. 

It looks like a multilayer board - Isense and SW seem to have center layer routing. That would also explain how heat is conducted from the can tab to the thermal sense components.

Paul


----------



## NewBie

Thanks Chimo.


----------



## CM

chimo said:


> ...It looks like a multilayer board - Isense and SW seem to have center layer routing....



Three layer PCB? That's about the only thing high tech on the design


----------



## BigHonu

Very nice review!


----------



## Chronos

So even though the LEDBeam is direct-driven, does its aluminum slug housing the LuxIII make it dissipate heat more effectively through the aluminum body? 
As I tend to use my big lights for camping and hiking, where they burn for an hour or more, if the above line is true then I may need to pick up another LEDBeam or two. 

So if I read this correctly the MagLEDs are not regulated, but they are "step-driven?"

Sorry to be so dense!


----------



## Empath

A non-modified C and D cell Mag doesn't dissipate the heat from anything. Putting a PR based LED into it is no different than dropping it into a plastic flashlight, since the plastic isolated lamp fittings and the aluminum body are thermally isolated. Mag addresses that problem completely through it's electronic power control, backing off the power if too warm, and increasing the power if it's not. Heat dissipation is totally disregarded. That will, overall, give a less than 100% driven 3 watter.

As far as I know, it's the only PR drop-in for a Mag that addresses the heat issue at all.


----------



## Chronos

Thanks- that helps me out a bit. I've got a Diamond LuxIII and I wondered about heat... looks like the direct-driven LEDBeam with its aluminum "slug" is a better option for those who need longer runtimes and wish to dissipate heat away from the bulb. Yikes.


----------



## cslinger

From what I have seen with mine leaving it run for a reasonably long time does not really noticeably dimish its output hugely so to the eye. So you do have thermal management via the chip and you really are not that penalized for the cutting back in power as far as useable light seems to be concerned. 

Again I am looking at this from the stand point of a utilitarian product that is designed to provide enough light for a given task for a certain amount of time. These LEDs seem to do just that, throw very very well and are likely to last a whole hell of a lot longer then the average hotwire bulb. All in all I think MAG did a good job hitting "their" intended market. I know I will buy a few more MAGs to keep around the house and for lending out. Before the LED modules I couldn't stand a Maglite for its shoddy beam, sick color etc. Now I am very pleased all in all. Runtime looks to be pretty good as well.

Chris


----------



## Ray_of_Light

I was a fan of EverLED, and then, Tektite drop-ins. EverLED uses the same heat-limiting technology, but it is boost-buck. To me, the EverLEd is still state of the art Drop-in, even if it uses a Lux 1.
Tektite drop-ins, that are based on number of cells, uses another solution for the heat, they are underdriven.

The MAG adapter is within average, since it has crammed the digital regulator inside the adapter, but the power components that NewBie has so clearly shown, are "ancient"... 
Two more good MOSFETs at 30 cent each could have produced an excellent regulator, avoiding the power loss in the Sckhotty diode. But who uses sync rectifiers? SF, HDS? To get 15% more efficiency?
At the other end, I have seen other PR drop-ins using one transistor and one double-coil in a blocked-oscillator configuration, and that is really bad, It fries the LED.
I believe the MAG is a good dropin for the price.

EDIT: I just noted the pre-forming of the LED. I believe they are built in a totally automated manner, without intervention of human manpower. It means to me that their price, sooner or later, may go down.
Newbie, I have a question for you, since you have disassembled them: is the solder leadless? I have read somewhere that the new leadless solder has a limited number of thermal cycles, then it cracks. END EDIT

Anthony


----------



## daloosh

Newbie, you ROCK! Thanks for the detailed and ongoing dissection and review. Thanks also everyone for spirited discussion, Henry, I appreciate your thoughts. And as for Mag? Well, Mag is as Mag does.

daloosh


----------



## martytoo

Is the "donut" problem identical with the 2C and 2D lights? I am curious because I like the idea of the smaller 2C light and am hoping it might be a bit nicer than what has been reported for the 2D.


----------



## Empath

It's identical.


----------



## NewBie

Ray_of_Light said:


> Newbie, I have a question for you, since you have disassembled them: is the solder leadless? I have read somewhere that the new leadless solder has a limited number of thermal cycles, then it cracks. END EDIT
> 
> Anthony




Good Question. I've been working with solder for 36 years now. Normally, all the lead-free solders I seen, have a grainy appearance to them, and they are somewhat harder then normal solders.

This solder doesn't appear grainy (in some areas it does, but that may be the process and what floated off the leads, particularly the inductor).

As you can see, on a close-up of one of the leads of the uber tiny SC-70 package parts, one sees none of the grainy stuff, just a little oxide in places. Keep in mind, these leads are small, ~0.225mm wide (~0.00886 inches) :





Nor is the solder hard. 

I lack a lead test kit for a definitive answer, but these ones I bought at WalMart, appear to be done on a lead process.


----------



## CM

NewBie said:


> Good Question. I've been working with solder for 36 years now. Normally, all the lead-free solders I seen, have a grainy appearance to them, and they are somewhat harder then normal solders.
> 
> This solder doesn't appear grainy (in some areas it does, but that may be the process and what floated off the leads, particularly the inductor).
> 
> As you can see, on a close-up of one of the leads of the uber tiny SC-70 package parts, one sees none of the grainy stuff, just a little oxide in places. Keep in mind, these leads are small, ~0.225mm wide (~0.00886 inches) :
> 
> 
> Nor is the solder hard.
> 
> I lack a lead test kit for a definitive answer, but these ones I bought at WalMart, appear to be done on a lead process.




Those look like tin-lead to me. Mag doesn't intend to sell these in Europe I take it.


----------



## NewBie

martytoo said:


> Is the "donut" problem identical with the 2C and 2D lights? I am curious because I like the idea of the smaller 2C light and am hoping it might be a bit nicer than what has been reported for the 2D.




I think you have your flashlights confused.


It is the *SureFire U2* that often has the *donut* problem.


The MagLite can be adjusted to a spot, and it is adjustable. 

Like most all "parabolic" reflectors, if it is defocused (or improperly focused in the first place like the SureFire), it obviously will get a donut, like when you try to make it flood.


I did have a runtime going, but I bumped the measurement setup. I can say that it was still going at 24 hours.

New runtime in process.


----------



## cslinger

Which model was still going at 24 hours? 2D, 3D or 4D? I am interested in the 2D most of all. Can we safely say that a 2D model is likely to get a good solid 10 hours or so?

Thanks
Chris


----------



## GarageBoy

NewBie said:


> I think you have your flashlights confused.
> 
> 
> It is the *SureFire U2* that often has the *donut* problem.
> 
> 
> The MagLite can be adjusted to a spot, and it is adjustable.
> 
> Like most all "parabolic" reflectors, if it is defocused (or improperly focused in the first place like the SureFire), it obviously will get a donut, like when you try to make it flood.
> 
> 
> I did have a runtime going, but I bumped the measurement setup. I can say that it was still going at 24 hours.
> 
> New runtime in process.


Actually, the properly focused Lux V has a donut hole.. (blame the 4 dies)


----------



## NewBie

Okay, started a runtime on a second "bulb", with the following results:







This test is on going, the batteries are only down to 1.27V each at the end of 24 hours, so there is a very long way to go yet:


----------



## ViReN

NewBie, just wondering....How Bright is the *0.3* as compared with Standard Maglight with Fresh Alkalines ? i mean the comparitive _Throw Reading_ according to Quick Beam), also it would be interesting to know the "Overall" readings compared as well...

the throw reading would actually determine the "Output" for Laymen


----------



## mtnwalker

This is all really good review material. Is there any way to superimpose the mag incan. data next to the LED data on that chart..that would put things in better perspective. I expect the incan would be brighter maybe for the first hr or so and then even the dimmed out LED would be comparable or better well after the incan batteries had died? I am curious how bright that regulated level is compared to the incan after the batteries have weakened and they give that sick yellow bulb color...
I add my thanks to the others for the information you have studied here.

I also have another general question about these Mag drop-in modules. One of the main attractions to me as far as LEDs (flashlights in general actually) are concerned is that they are as simple as possible....as few breakable things as possible....I understand that the LEDs are a good simple,tough,long lasting bulb- I wonder about all the electonics inside that module doing all the heat protection duty that it seems to be doing (apparantly pretty well it seems). How tough do you think those internals are, they should last as well as the LED itself.....but I get a little squinty eyed when I see too much electonics in there...
Am I just too leary here, or anybody else think this is a valid concern? I am hoping this is a non-issue, just asking though...


----------



## download

NewBie, :thanks: for great review.

Just checked with Step-Down Controller spec., max Vin 6.5V.

:thanks:


----------



## NewBie

ViReN said:


> NewBie, just wondering....How Bright is the *0.3* as compared with Standard Maglight with Fresh Alkalines ? i mean the comparitive _Throw Reading_ according to Quick Beam), also it would be interesting to know the "Overall" readings compared as well...
> 
> the throw reading would actually determine the "Output" for Laymen




Go look back at the beamshot pictures which were after 25 minutes runtime.


----------



## NewBie

Runtime graph updated.

Scroll up or go to first page.

It looks like moon mode testing will go on for quite some time, so bear with me...weeks?

Enjoy!


----------



## cslinger

I have had a 2D cell running for around 17 hours straight and the beam is plenty bright, plenty useable and is much better then the comparable Mag 2D incan beam after an hour or so. 

I am pretty happy overall. 30 hours of runtime, great throw, decent light output, much nicer beam then stock incan, makes a great candle that lights up a whole room.

I know the tech isn't exactly first rate and I realize that it is no MAG85 or even a Magcharger etc. but what you get for around $33 bucks is an excellent lighting tool for either inside or outside tasks. For the cost of two batteries say $2 bucks or so you conceivably get almost four 8 hour nights worth of runtime. The standard Mag casing is pretty tough and it feels good in the hand. 

I am very much looking forward to the AA versions since these seem to be where Mag spent their real R&D money. 

So is it worth it to the average flashlight user, I say hell yes. Is it worth it to the average flashaholic who owns several high dollar lights, probably not. For me personally I prize usefull light for the longest time possible and I forsee buying a few other 2D Maglites just to keep in everyroom as possible candles and lenders. 

As a final note I hated my Maglites in regards to their use as lighting instruments. I have always liked the bodys but never liked them in practical use, with the Magcharger being the possible exception. With these LED upgrades I now actually like the Maglites and their beam is actually usefull to me now.

Chris


----------



## cslinger

As far as moon mode is concerned what kind of output are we talking, HDS EDC on low, Surefire L1 on low?

Just curious, I will likely know by tomorrow. 

Chris


----------



## cslinger

One more update. After about 18 hours straight, my 2D seems to be putting out right around Surefire L1/E1L on high beam levels of light. Maybe a tad less, but that could be the tint talking as the L1 and E1L in question has spectacular tint and the MagLED in question has warmer tint. 

It is putting out more light then an Inova T2.
It is putting out a hell of a lot more light then a Surefire A2 in LED mode.
It is putting out a hell of alot more light then a new Inova X1.
It is putting out noticeably more light then a Surefire L2 on low. 

So based on the above I would say that after 18 hours we are still getting around 25 lumens of light or so. Considering the stock Mag is said to put out, what 30 lumens or so on fresh batteries I am not complaining. Correction per Maglites specs the stock 2D is said to output 36 lumens with a continuous run time of 9-10 hours. We all know that 36 lumens lasts for about 15 minutes and at 9 hours or so it is next to useless IMHO. So the LED appears to put out as much light as a stock 2D incan for most likely around 4X the runtime for all practical purposes since in my experience the 9-10 hour runtime with a stock 2D is pretty much a 7-8 hour run. 

So lets recap.

PROS
Roughly as bright as stock.
3-4X the runtime while staying as bright as stock.
Tough body.
Tougher bulb mechanism by far.
Feels good in the hand.
Throws like mad.
Can be used as a room candle.
Is probably the most comfortable of all the Mag full size lights.
Thermal regulation to prevent LED damage.
Decent cost.

CONS
Not exactly high tech.
Not likely to get perfect tint.
Thermal regulation throttles down light output, although as I have seen this is nothing to write home about.
It ain't no Surefire.
The beam is much much much better then stock but still isn't all that great especially as the lense gets scratched up.

Final Word
Thumbs up from me.


Chris


----------



## NewBie

cslinger said:


> As far as moon mode is concerned what kind of output are we talking, HDS EDC on low, Surefire L1 on low?
> 
> Just curious, I will likely know by tomorrow.
> 
> Chris




At the 36 hour point, the center spot beam is a little less than the Fenix center spot on it's high level. 

Easily enough to walk down a path with.

I've got five of the MagLite Modules, all of them are rather white. Nothing like luxeon lottery I have seen on the SureFire products. Are they "perfectly" white? Close, and it all depends on your definition of white. But all I can speak for is the ones I've purchased, from more than one store.


----------



## AlexSchira

Sorry to wander off topic, but how would these things work with C cells and PVC pipe in a D-Mag? I imagine having a 4-cell and higher powered module in a 3D Mag would be fun to have...but would this thing be able to handle it?


----------



## cslinger

> At the 36 hour point, the center spot beam is a little less than the Fenix center spot on it's high level.



Well hell that's a pretty nice "moon mode". Well I think I am going to turn mine off as it has gone 20 hours with little change past the initial drop off and I am pleased as punch with that. I was hoping for 10 hours or so at "full brightness" and we are way past that so I am good to go. Knowing that you are at 36 hours and still have Fenix brightness is good enough for me. This light gets my power outage/lost in the woods seal of approval. 

The 3D-4Ds must run for damn ever.


----------



## chevrofreak

AlexSchira said:


> Sorry to wander off topic, but how would these things work with C cells and PVC pipe in a D-Mag? I imagine having a 4-cell and higher powered module in a 3D Mag would be fun to have...but would this thing be able to handle it?


 
What makes you think the 4 cell module is brighter than the 2 or 3 cell module? They use the same LED, likely limited to the same maximum amount of heat. I bet all 3 are identical in brightness.


----------



## Brighteyez

My 3 cell modules are brighter and throw farther than the 2 cell modules (have two of each.) Why do you say that all three are the same brightness, and have you actually compared any of them?



chevrofreak said:


> What makes you think the 4 cell module is brighter than the 2 or 3 cell module? They use the same LED, likely limited to the same maximum amount of heat. I bet all 3 are identical in brightness.


----------



## Brighteyez

It would probably work the same as one of the modules in a C cell light with the corresponding number of cells (i.e. 3cell module with 3 C cells, etc.)

Now I haven't tried it yet, nor do I know if I want to dump the money into trying it, but the thought did occur to me to try one of the 4 cell modules in a 3D Mag body, and use a battery from a Mag Charger or SL-20X (dimesionally a straight drop in replacement.) Not exactly a feasible arrangement unless one has a means of charging an SL20 battery outside of the body of the light, otherwise you'd have to tie up a SL20 or a Mag Charger to charge up the battery each time it needed a re-charge. Given the limited capacity of the NiCD battery and the fact that the LED module doesn't really require the level of current that the battery is capable of delivering, such an experiment would be solely academic. 



AlexSchira said:


> Sorry to wander off topic, but how would these things work with C cells and PVC pipe in a D-Mag? I imagine having a 4-cell and higher powered module in a 3D Mag would be fun to have...but would this thing be able to handle it?


----------



## chevrofreak

Brighteyez said:


> My 3 cell modules are brighter and throw farther than the 2 cell modules (have two of each.) Why do you say that all three are the same brightness, and have you actually compared any of them?


 
The 2 cells version being boosted may infact not be as bright as the 3 and 4 cell ones, but the 3 and 4 cell ones should be about the same. It would be silly for Mag to make them different in brightness, especially if they all use the same LED and a heat limited control circuit. Prices are all the same arent they?


----------



## Brighteyez

Mag-num Star Xenon and White Star Krypton bulbs from Mag are also the same price regardless of the cells in the flashlight itself. Probably best to leave it to someone who can actually compare the different versions rather than making speculative conclusions. Unfortunately, I can't, as I don't have nor do I have any desire to have a 4 Cell Mag in either configuration. 



chevrofreak said:


> The 2 cells version being boosted may infact not be as bright as the 3 and 4 cell ones, but the 3 and 4 cell ones should be about the same. It would be silly for Mag to make them different in brightness, especially if they all use the same LED and a heat limited control circuit. Prices are all the same arent they?


----------



## chevrofreak

Brighteyez said:


> Mag-num Star Xenon and White Star Krypton bulbs from Mag are also the same price regardless of the cells in the flashlight itself. Probably best to leave it to someone who can actually compare the different versions rather than making speculative conclusions. Unfortunately, I can't, as I don't have nor do I have any desire to have a 4 Cell Mag in either configuration.


 
Comparing the LED dropins to xenon bulbs is pointless. The Xenon bulbs are built to run on a specific voltage, and with higher voltage comes higher current and higher output. The LED dropins are heat regulated, and they all use the same Luxeon III. If they are all regulated to limit the LED to the same heat level, and I see no reason they wouldn't be, there should be absolutely no brightness difference outside of what would already exist between any two given LED's.


----------



## cslinger

I have two 3D Maglites running the LEDs and three 2D Maglites and the 3Ds are slightly brighter to my eye.


----------



## martytoo

cslinger said:


> Well hell that's a pretty nice "moon mode". Well I think I am going to turn mine off as it has gone 20 hours with little change past the initial drop off and I am pleased as punch with that. I was hoping for 10 hours or so at "full brightness" and we are way past that so I am good to go. Knowing that you are at 36 hours and still have Fenix brightness is good enough for me. This light gets my power outage/lost in the woods seal of approval.
> 
> The 3D-4Ds must run for damn ever.


 
On or off the batteries will likely die from old age before they die from being drained by the LED. I still have a Snake Light from Black and Decker somewhere in the house. I needed it years ago but only used it for projects once or twice a year. Every time I did use it I remember needing to put in fresh batteries.

Now as I post this I am wondering if the newer batteries have better shelf life as it is implied on the packages. That is the use by date seems to be very reasonable on the newer batteries. Sorry for drifting off topic.


----------



## cslinger

One of the things I have noticed with LED technology is that older batteries seem to work just fine with the LEDs. For example with the new 3D 3W module for the Maglite I put them in two Maglites with batteries that are very very old. At least six years or so she lit up bright as anything.


----------



## cslinger

So how long did that sucker run? Is it still putting out any useful light?


----------



## mtnwalker

I currently have a 3d and a 4d Mag that I am thinking about upgrading both to a new LED bulb so I can cut down on battery useage...

I am thinking about using a Mag 3w in one and using a NiteIze for the other, I understand that the NiteIze is not as bright but should REALLY save $$ on Batteries.
Here's the important detail -
The 3d and 4d are NOT the same construction on the bulb tower. The 3d is 1.75 in. from plastic base to top of bulb collar, and the 4d is 1.25 in. from METAL base to top of collar. the 3d bulb sits noticeably higher in the tube, the 4d bulb sits further down inside the tube. I suspect that the 4d design would help dissipate heat better and would be a better choice for the Mag 3w LED, then I would get the NiteIze for the 3d.

Can anyone confirm my thoughts? Any reason to do the bulb replacement the other way around?....Maybe should I go with Mag for both (is the NiteIze too dim to even consider?)
Thanks.
Rando


----------



## Empath

The Nite-Ize module is barely bright enough to serve much purpose, considering what's expected from a full size light like a D or C cell Mag. If I tried to find a use or reason for it, I'd equate it to the donut temporary use spare tire in you car. It might provide enough light to get you to the store to buy a replacement, but it would be of minimum use.


----------



## Brighteyez

It really depends upon what bulbs you may have in the lights and in the final analysis it isn't likely to be an issue. If you can afford to, you'd probably be best served going with the Mag module in both lights. If the financial outlay is an issue, I'd suggest converting the light that you use most frequently first and then seeing how you like it. If you don't like it, you only have to return one module. If you do like it, you can convert the other light when it is convenient for you. Unlike the Chinese companies, Mag products are out there for a long time once they've been put into the marketplace, you can rely on them being available when you need them.



mtnwalker said:


> Can anyone confirm my thoughts? Any reason to do the bulb replacement the other way around?....Maybe should I go with Mag for both (is the NiteIze too dim to even consider?)
> Thanks.
> Rando


----------



## mtnwalker

Thankyou for the answers- they make a lot of sense. The 4d actually has a tighter focus than the 3d if you nitpick them side by side, I think I may try that one first. I understand the thinking about the NiteIze, if it is really that dim I would only consider it a backup bulb just as described above, and I have smaller lights for backups anyway...thanks for the comments
This is an interesting topic to me.


----------



## idleprocess

Call me nuts, but the 2-cell module sometimes emits a faintly-audible high-pitch tone that changes every few seconds after being switched on while cold. Some have observed this phenomenon with the Surefire L2 on low and other high-freq circuits using coils ... I want to say the term was "sympathetic oscillation".


----------



## cslinger

None of mine seem to emit any noise at all.

Chris


----------



## CanDo

Well now THAT's certainly interesting!

Wow, Excellent report! Even I was able to Understand it 

From what I've read (yes I actually read each page of this thread, but I doubt that it all got absorbed) this is a great lite.
For my purposes, the heat regulation is a plus. It gives you good light at first, then settles to a more efficient (or perhaps efficient isn't the perfect term... but less battery consuming) mode. I find that I usually switch my lights down like this anyway, so why not just start from the beginning? (rhetorical)

Is there a torch (or a mod) that this could be compared to when considering Lumens/Runtime/Price?

Also, coming from that 30% that it likes to hang out at, how long does it take for the heat to dissipate in around room temperature (blahh I suppose humidity could have an impact as well) back to near 100%??


----------



## ICCAFSN

A few posts in this thread alluded to this question, but they were pretty much ignored... but how does a 3-cell Mag LED light compare to the EverLED dropin replacement and to the Diamond DB-3W dropin replacement?

As an owner of both of those products, I'd like to know whether it would be an upgrade or downgrade to get a Mag LED bulb. I'm not really concerned about heat dissipation, I'd just like to know which one puts out more light and for longer periods of time.


----------



## Brighteyez

I believe it mentioned in one of the other threads by one poster that his Mag module was a little brighter than his Diamond module, but since you have both the Diamond and the EverLED, why don't you try the Mag and share your experiences with the other folks here? If you have concerns about getting stuck with a module that you might not like, get it from Wal*Mart, they'll accept returns.



ICCAFSN said:


> A few posts in this thread alluded to this question, but they were pretty much ignored... but how does a 3-cell Mag LED light compare to the EverLED dropin replacement and to the Diamond DB-3W dropin replacement?
> 
> As an owner of both of those products, I'd like to know whether it would be an upgrade or downgrade to get a Mag LED bulb. I'm not really concerned about heat dissipation, I'd just like to know which one puts out more light and for longer periods of time.


----------



## idleprocess

cslinger said:


> None of mine seem to emit any noise at all.
> 
> Chris


It is both faint and inconsistent.


----------



## nelstomlinson

ICCAFSN said:


> ... how does a 3-cell Mag LED light compare to the EverLED dropin replacement and to the Diamond DB-3W dropin replacement?



Can't help you with the Diamond comparison, but I just got a pair of the 4 cell drop ins, and I'd say they're brighter than my Everled, dimming to about the same as they heat up. 

My Everled is the Lambertian type, which may explain why it doesn't focus nearly so well as the new drop ins. The drop ins focus to a pinpoint hotspot at six feet, with a wide, dim corona. The hotspot lights up the neighbor's dark gray garage across the street, and is probably six feet in diameter at around 75 feet distance. I'd say that the drop ins definitely have better throw than the Everled in my 4D mags.



> As an owner of both of those products, I'd like to know whether it would be an upgrade or downgrade to get a Mag LED bulb. I'm not really concerned about heat dissipation, I'd just like to know which one puts out more light and for longer periods of time.



I don't think that I'd be in a hurry to replace that Everled: to my mind, the Mag drop in isn't that much better. On the other hand, it might make sense to replace that Everled, and put it in another light which wouldn't take the Mag drop in, which isn't the standard PR size. That's what I plan to do with my Everled. I don't think that I'd buy an Everled for a Maglight, now that these drop ins are available.


----------



## ICCAFSN

Interesting posts comparing the DB-3W and the EverLED. I wouldn't mind doing a comparison of these to the MagLED myself except that, according to a list I found in one of the other threads, the Walmarts around me don't carry it.


----------



## db

I picked up a 2 Cell MAG drop-in yesterday.

I turned off the lights in the house and walked around using Incan, and then the LED.
The LED has a more uniform overall output, making a more usable light.

Comparing to the 1 Watt everLed I had in my 2 Cell light:

Tighter spot/further throw.
Whiter light. (everLED has a blue-ish tine)
Spill is more uniform.

When adjusting to flood, it's got that big black hole in the middle. (The everLed adjusts to flood more nicely, since it's not a done type emitter)

I moved the EverLED to my 3 cell light.

I let the 2Cell Mag LED run awhile and the drop off in output wasn't all that noticable. Maybe this is due to the way my eyes dark-adapt?

I'm satisfiled with it. Not overy excited, but it was worth the $19.


----------



## nikon

nelstomlinson said:


> Can't help you with the Diamond comparison, but I just got a pair of the 4 cell drop ins, and I'd say they're brighter than my Everled, dimming to about the same as they heat up.
> 
> My Everled is the Lambertian type, which may explain why it doesn't focus nearly so well as the new drop ins. The drop ins focus to a pinpoint hotspot at six feet, with a wide, dim corona. The hotspot lights up the neighbor's dark gray garage across the street, and is probably six feet in diameter at around 75 feet distance. I'd say that the drop ins definitely have better throw than the Everled in my 4D mags.


 
From the way you describe your Everled's beam, it sounds more like the side emitter version than a Lambertian. A lambertian is a high dome; the side emitter has a small cone sitting atop the dome. A lambertian Everled should focus to the same type of beam as does the Mag module, which is also a Lambertian.


----------



## Brighteyez

This is also where I think Mag does a great disservice to their product in packaging their lights with those Krypton bulbs. Their Mag-Num Star Xenon bulbs also focus to a nice tight spot, throw further than the LED modules, and also have a uniform spill (albeit the lower yellowish color temperature that is commonly associated to incandescent bulbs.)



db said:


> Comparing to the 1 Watt everLed I had in my 2 Cell light:
> 
> Tighter spot/further throw.
> Whiter light. (everLED has a blue-ish tine)
> Spill is more uniform.


----------



## flashlightguy

So WHY does it say not to use rechargables?? It would seem that some NiMH cells would work better. 

I guess I'll have to try it anyway. My dad is getting one of these for his Mag light 2-D, and he finally now uses rechargables. 

Any ideas?


----------



## piper

Well I bought mine yesterday and had last night to play around with it.

As far as I'm concerned the upgrade module saved the life of my 2D cell Mag. The module is brighter than the incan bulb throws farther and it will run much longer too. 

I've read all of the comments about reduction in output vs. temperature and old style tech in the module and I feel these are all non starters. The module gives nice white light (mine might be a bit purple if that is possible) and really long life to any D cells that are loaded (even dollar store carbons). 

Finally, I cannot find an upgrade module at anywhere near the price of this thing in Canada.

For the non flashaholic this module is a wonder and a great introduction into the world of LED lighting.

I predict over time the folks at Mag Co. will change the way people look at pocket lighting and we'll have an LED in every lamp.


----------



## wwglen

Did the runtime for the moon mode ever get completed?

wwglen


----------



## Burgess

Was it ever verified that Mag Instruments uses actual Luxeon LED's in these units ?

Thank you to everyone for all the work and research on these modules. CPF rocks !


----------



## flashlightguy

I tried the conversion with nimh D-cells, and it seems to work fine. So far so good.


----------



## NewBie

As promised, Moon Mode runtime plots for the 2 cell boost version, in a 2D light.

The 3D and 4D buck would run alot longer...

It was still emitting light in moon mode 184 hours later (over 7 days). The 4D would probably still be emitting light more than 15 days later...though I have not had a chance to do the runtime on it.


----------



## yaesumofo

Maglite should have looked on the CPF. for ideas. People have been making fine mods for these lights for some time now. The space needle comes to mind as one of the coolest with a LUX V emitter. I love mine.

Since ten I have been using an O-Sinks I have potted very efficient drivers right into the sink with the emitter on the pedestal had very good results. The drivers are very efficient and the Hot lips/ O-sink do a great job of thermal management.
Mag has not made the best choices here. I have yet to see the mag LED in a store yet but you can bet as soon as I see one I will buy it (or two) and will be looking for ways to improve upon them. 
I wonder if the driver board can be replaced with a more efficient unit that drops in replacing the stock unit. Is there any room to stick some aluminum or copper to move some heat around?

Do you think Mag is manufacturing those boards in the USA?
I hope so.
It is nice to see cpf'rs talking about mag lights.
Yaesumofo


----------



## Lit Up

I really don't think it was Maglite's intention to "wow" the LED market with their LED C/D version lights. 
They just kept it for what it is: a general purpose/average joe light with a proven design and it does very well within that application. And making it backward compatible with the ubiquitous older incans out there is a plus.
Most D cell lights sit in people's glove boxes anyways, which is what my initial purpose was for it and still is - a car light. I also have a signal cone that rides with it.
If I need something with the power of a spotlight (which is rare), I'll buy a spotlight.

I think most of the scrutiny should be reserved for the 2XAA version and smaller lights they're going to introduce. Taking a look around this site will easily tell you that's where the popular market lies these days. I mean, who actually carries a C/D sized light around on their person?

And if you guys are interested in the incan 2XAA's for modding purposes, I'd consider buying them up. Taking a look at my local Wal-Mart, they have these things literally crammed onto the rungs. It almost looks as if they're trying to get rid of their stock. Perhaps making way for the newly designed?

I really don't see Maglite continuing the 2XAA incans once the LED versions arrive. Replacement bulbs? Sure. But if the newer LED version is gonna be more useful, why bother manufacturing two designs? Especially when one is going to be inferior in output and runtime.

Just an average joe's perspective.


----------



## Lit Up

Lit Up said:


> I think most of the scrutiny should be reserved for the 2XAA version and smaller lights they're going to introduce.



Ok, I just saw on Brightguy's website that Mag is using a 3 watt in their 2xAA's. 
Feel free to flame on!

I have a Dorcy 1 watt/2xAA and it gets a good balance of runtime and output.
I don't see why they didn't go with a 1 watt. :thumbsdow


----------



## nikon

Lit Up said:


> I don't see why they didn't go with a 1 watt. :thumbsdow


 
What difference would that make?


----------



## Lit Up

nikon said:


> What difference would that make?



runtime I'd imagine. Unless it's under driven.


----------



## Brighteyez

Less current consumption and probably not much difference in output. The small lights using 3W Lux type LEDs don't seem to be able to get much more output than with a 1W LED. Nuwai Q3s and the Fenix T series are good examples of that when you compare them to 1W lights like the Fenix P series or even the Dorcy 1W 123.



nikon said:


> What difference would that make?


----------



## CM

Nikon's point, and I agree with him, is that there is very little practical difference between 1W and 3W. I've seen many a lux I's and III's and driving a Lux I at lux III levels will give you lux III performance (provided you compare appropriate bins) with no visible difference, except that the Lux III's have better thermal characteristics which will manifest itself tens of thousands of hours down the road, maybe. This Lux I is better than Lux III and vice versa is a baseless argument. Even an integrating sphere will not be able to distinguish an R bin Lux I from a T bin Lux III or an S Lux1 from a U lux III if you drive them at the same levels.


----------



## 3rd_shift

Ah ha!
Someone did do a good review of this new development from maglite. 
I went and did a short review of the 2d in the reviews forum when I saw that nobody else did. 
Newbie, this review you did really looks great. 
And yes, mine gets hot quite fast.
I'll take mine back to Walmart for a refund.
I had hoped that Maglite would have done a better job of designing a flashlight that would not run hotter than 2 a dollar pistol.


----------



## Lit Up

3rd_shift said:


> Ah ha!
> Someone did do a good review of this new development from maglite.
> I went and did a short review of the 2d in the reviews forum when I saw that nobody else did.
> Newbie, this review you did really looks great.
> And yes, mine gets hot quite fast.
> I'll take mine back to Walmart for a refund.
> I had hoped that Maglite would have done a better job of designing a flashlight that would not run hotter than 2 a dollar pistol.



I've had mine on for over 10 hours in one setting with no heat problems.
You might have gotten a bad one.


----------



## Empath

3rd_shift said:


> Ah ha!
> I had hoped that Maglite would have done a better job of designing a flashlight that would not run hotter than 2 a dollar pistol.



It's not a flashlight. It's a drop-in PR module.


----------



## NewBie

*Re: MagLite 2C/2D 3D 4D 3W LED drop-in Technical Review*



3rd_shift said:


> Ah ha!
> Someone did do a good review of this new development from maglite.
> Newbie, this review you did really looks great.



Thanks!


----------



## Pellidon

idleprocess said:


> It is both faint and inconsistent.



I have a 2 cell unit that whines. 

I think it is a bad connection due to the dodgy clip together connection for the emitter or the ground tab not making good contact with the shell and causing a microphonic feedback in the inductor. Probably won't amount to muct but slight increase in current draw or premature failure (9,999 hours over 10,000 maybe).

Or it could be just plain microphonic oscillations in the inductor. 

I don't think it will amount to much at this point.


----------



## dirtie

:huh2: now i am totally confused..what is this about.. i am lost , lost ,lost..as a confirmed tech- no -phobe . are these LED for mag lites good or not good?.i have a couple mags. a 4d and a mini . if i aint going to ruin my lite i'd buy the conversions.what about those heat sinks thingys, if i run too long.will i crash n burn?. also why are the fenix lites that are colored [ barrels ] so costly?.what about those lites that can burn paper "arcs" maybe??.i dunno.. i am in need of a new lites. i carry a s/f e2 exe.but i want a edc that will be used more. save the e2 for emergency stuff. like blinding a bad guy so i can get my gun or other devise out.i preferr under $100.00 i do like LED,s but need a long "throw". o geez after trying to underststand this thread i dont know what more to ask ya. i appreciate all of your patience

bill


----------



## cslinger

dirtie,

If you are looking for a technological tour-de-force so to speak then the Maglites kind of suck.

If you are looking for a very pratical, tough lighting intstrument that has great throw, great runtime and is pretty darn bright all the while being tough and relatively inexpensive then the Maglite modules rock.

I have run one of mine for well over 30 hours with no problems whatsoever. I have 5 of them and all work as advertised. Three 2 cells, two 3 cells. 

Personally I like them. I don't know why folks are saying they feel the light get hot as the only place I feel any heat was at the emitter itself and even after many hours of constant on I could touch and hold the emitter. Basically if it gets too hot it throttles down the light output to decrease the heat. The throttled down light output is still more then enough to light an average sized room with a ceiling bounce quite well. 

Count me among the camp that likes em.

Chris


----------



## dirtie

what can " I " do t improve my mag 4D?. what about those i think sun bulbs?. how 'bout a glass lens?.is anyone willing to take on this mundane project?.what is a "pot" not the stuff one smokes.emmitter.i never knew there was electronics in flashlites.wow so much to learn,but it does make sense tho...


----------



## Empath

Dirtie, create a new thread for your question. This thread is about the Maglite drop-in modules. Your tangent will take the thread too far off topic.


----------



## adirondackdestroyer

My dad bought his father a 2D MagLED for fathers day. He is very impressed with the beam and was suprised when it wasn't "yellow". :laughing: 
I was pretty impressed by the throw as well. After he put some batteries in he shined it around the room (which was obviously bright) and it still appeared pretty bright and looks to have a ton of throw! 

I was wondering, are the 3D and 4D MagLED setups brighter than the 2D, or do they just have longer runtime? My local walmart has the 2D,3D,and 4D LED modules, but only the 2D MagLED flashlights.


----------



## Lit Up

adirondackdestroyer said:


> My dad bought his father a 2D MagLED for fathers day. He is very impressed with the beam and was suprised when it wasn't "yellow". :laughing:
> I was pretty impressed by the throw as well. After he put some batteries in he shined it around the room (which was obviously bright) and it still appeared pretty bright and looks to have a ton of throw!
> 
> I was wondering, are the 3D and 4D MagLED setups brighter than the 2D, or do they just have longer runtime? My local walmart has the 2D,3D,and 4D LED modules, but only the 2D MagLED flashlights.



Probably runtime as I think they all use the same modules. (3 watt) Even the 2XAA's coming out are going to use it from my understanding. But the 2D is definitely no slouch in runtime itself. I have over 12 hours on mine with cheap batteries and it's still putting the light out there. (10 of those hours was at a one time setting.)

I'd REALLY like to see Mag do something in a 1xAA version of a Solitaire. 1 watt would be great.


----------



## nikon

adirondackdestroyer said:


> I was wondering, are the 3D and 4D MagLED setups brighter than the 2D, or do they just have longer runtime? My local walmart has the 2D,3D,and 4D LED modules, but only the 2D MagLED flashlights.


 
I have the 2D and 4D modules. When first turned on, the 4D is about 50% brighter than the 2D. I haven't run them together until their heat sensors have dimmed them to their lower levels, so I can't say what their relative brightness would be if run side by side for an hour or so.


----------



## NewBie

I'd like to encourage everyone to look at the very first post in this thread, which will answer many of the questions that have been presented lately.

It contains most of the stuff I've mentioned in my thread in that first post.


----------



## bwaites

Great post Newbie!

I picked one of the 2 cell lights up just for kicks.

I read the first post (and if it was there I missed it), but not all of the rest, so I apologize if someone has asked, but has anyone tried overdriving these yet?

Bill


----------



## AshA4

Thanks for the report Newb! :goodjob:


----------



## Hondo

adirondackdestroyer said:


> I was wondering, are the 3D and 4D MagLED setups brighter than the 2D, or do they just have longer runtime? My local walmart has the 2D,3D,and 4D LED modules, but only the 2D MagLED flashlights.


 
To chime in on this, as I just added the 3D upgrade after being sufficiently impressed with my first 2D upgrade, the 3D is noticeably brighter than the 2D. But like nikon, I am only comparing them in the first couple of minutes of run time, and thermal regulation may take them nearer to one another on long runs.


----------



## NewBie

Thanks fellas!

I hope ya'lls enjoyed it as much as I did doing it!


----------



## Lit Up

Can a Mag 2D be cut down to a 1D size (actually using just a 1D cell instead of 4 AA's in a carrier) and still power one of these drop-ins or even a Lux I?


----------



## wwglen

I think the three cell run tiume will be the WORST as the three cells just bairly give enough voltage to run the circuit in BUCK mode when they ar slightly drained.

Example 

LED Vf of 3.2V

3 Alkline batteries at 1 volt (still PLENTY left) will NOT drive the bulb at full brightness.

Even three at 1.1 volts (3.3) won't have much left for losses at the circuit.

wwglen


----------



## PlayboyJoeShmoe

Lit Up said:


> Can a Mag 2D be cut down to a 1D size (actually using just a 1D cell instead of 4 AA's in a carrier) and still power one of these drop-ins or even a Lux I?



I'm not sure 1D would drive it, but why not one of the 3AA-1D adapters? Less capacity... but a cool little light!!!


----------



## CroMAGnet

Awesome review Newbie!!


----------



## Lit Up

PlayboyJoeShmoe said:


> I'm not sure 1D would drive it, but why not one of the 3AA-1D adapters? Less capacity... but a cool little light!!!



I could never warm up to carriers/adapters. Just one more thing to go wrong and/or lose.


----------



## Alexis

any idea how this compares to one of electrolumen's blaster 1r? they are around the same price


----------



## Handlobraesing

I'm looking at temperature vs output graph on Luxeon datasheet and it says the output for white one is ~75% at 100C and 80% at 80C junction temperature. Considering the MagLED thermally throttles at ~60C, I think these are pretty close to the junction temperature. 

Mag 4D LED module's input after I let it run long enough until it stabilizes on thermal limiter:

(4x NiMH AA) 5.29v input, 0.255A current draw Pin =1.35W (1.24W after I cover the assembly in blanket) 
At this rate, it would run almost 10 hours on four AA batteries.

(3x NiMH AA) 3.83v input, 0.35A current draw Pin =1.34W

Voltage measured right at module base, module operated in open air. 

It's pulling the same power from the battery even with a 30% reduction in input voltage, but I have no idea what LED is actually getting as the driver changes in efficiency

The emitter's running so hot, so the brightness is probably about the same as a one watter running at full one watt with a good heatsink once the Mag LED reaches operating temperature. 

I would totally be for 4 AA powered MagLED that would shine for 8-10 hours with NiMH batteries. With four Ds it will perhaps run for close to 40 hours at full "stabilized state" output, but the extra 30 hours isn't a good enough return for having to carry around the large body...


----------



## cliff

Lit Up said:


> I have over 12 hours on mine with cheap batteries and it's still putting the light out there.


 
I'm barely getting eight hours from mine and it is pretty dim at the end of eight. Maybe the problem is I have been using Energizer 2500 MaH nimh rechargeables. Would alkalines be better, or should I get some of those 10,000 MaH nimh batteries for it?


----------



## Hondo

It's the batteries. Even cheap alkaline D batteries are close to 20,000 MaH. If you have 2500 MaH D's, they are basically AA's in a D size shell. Good D rechargeables are, as you say, around 10,000 MaH. But it sounds like you are getting good performance from what you have, and believe me, if you get the high capacity NiMH's, your light is going to get a lot heavier!


----------



## Jon S

I mistakenly bought a Mag LED for 4 cells for my 3 cell light. Tried it anyway and the output looks as bright if not brighter than my 2 cell Mag LED. What's up with that?


----------



## PlayboyJoeShmoe

I don't know but in preperation for testing my SMJLED PRs I took one C cell out of my 3C with M*gled and put in a bolt spacer. It still looked pretty bright, but not as bright by a fair amount.

4 driven by 3 is a smaller percentage than 3 by 2 though...


----------



## webley445

So I've been following the threads but....
Do we have an actual lumen/CP rating of whats coming out the front? At start up with fresh batts? At moon mode?


----------



## Empath

Jon, that would be regulation permitting the 6 volt module to run on 4.5 volts. I would imagine the drawback you'll experience is that you'll drop down into moon mode too quickly.


----------



## Brighteyez

Why don't you just take it back to the store and exchange it for a 3 cell version of the module?

Getting the sizes mixed up is pretty easy at some of the Wal*Mart stores carrying the upgrade module since they often put them all on the same shelf hook. And if it's one of the locked shelf hooks, the sales associates usually aren't aware that there are three different versions on the hook.,



Jon S said:


> I mistakenly bought a Mag LED for 4 cells for my 3 cell light. Tried it anyway and the output looks as bright if not brighter than my 2 cell Mag LED. What's up with that?


----------



## Al

Jon S said:


> I mistakenly bought a Mag LED for 4 cells for my 3 cell light. Tried it anyway and the output looks as bright if not brighter than my 2 cell Mag LED. What's up with that?


Brings up the question of what will REALLY happen if these modules are mixed up. For instance: 2D module with 3D light, 3D module with 4D light (overdriving), or as you have done - underdriving.


----------



## TornadoKat

I bought a 4D MagLED last night at Wal-Mart and put it in a 3D Maglite using 4 C cells as I don't have a 4D. 

Then I went outside and compared it with my Streamlight ProPolymer 3C by adjusting the hotspot on the Mag to the same size as the ProPoly. Pointing them at a fence about 200ft away and looking at how much detail of the fence and bushes in front of the fence I could make out, I would say the two are very very similiar in brightness overall and in throw.

Since the ProPoly is smaller, lighter, has a handy clip built in, and doesn't dim with heat, I would say it beats the pants off the MagLED in usability, at least in this one test.


----------



## Brighteyez

I must have gotten some pretty hot modules in the lights that I"ve upgraded. Seems that every one of them (currently 6), both 2 and 3 cell versions blows the doors off of either of the SL PP Luxeons (4AA or 3C). The 3 cell versions are noticably brighter than the 2 cell modules, but there wasn't any discernable difference (to the naked eye) between the 3 cell and 4 cell versions. But the size of the SL PP 4AA would still make it a preferred light for pocket carry.



TornadoKat said:


> I bought a 4D MagLED last night at Wal-Mart and put it in a 3D Maglite using 4 C cells as I don't have a 4D.
> 
> Then I went outside and compared it with my Streamlight ProPolymer 3C by adjusting the hotspot on the Mag to the same size as the ProPoly. Pointing them at a fence about 200ft away and looking at how much detail of the fence and bushes in front of the fence I could make out, I would say the two are very very similiar in brightness overall and in throw.
> 
> Since the ProPoly is smaller, lighter, has a handy clip built in, and doesn't dim with heat, I would say it beats the pants off the MagLED in usability, at least in this one test.


----------



## PlayboyJoeShmoe

Sure! But I'm going to try to do some heatsinking in my experimental light!

How about a 2AA light running a 4 cell on 2x123? How would THAT be for pocket carry?

I'll report more on it as I go, but the M*gled fits with just a wee bit of "dremel"ing...

edit> CRAP! I don't have a lot of room to play with. And just now running it on two Lith AAs with a fair amount of use on them got the M*gled HOT!

:scratches head:

On to plan B, 'cause plan A crashed! <edit


----------



## Handlobraesing

Hondo said:


> It's the batteries. *Even cheap alkaline D batteries are close to 20,000 MaH*. If you have 2500 MaH D's, they are basically AA's in a D size shell. Good D rechargeables are, as you say, around 10,000 MaH. But it sounds like you are getting good performance from what you have, and believe me, if you get the high capacity NiMH's, your light is going to get a lot heavier!



That's at 25mA or so current draw. The characteristics might vary from brand to brand, but at 500mA, the Energizer E95 D only gets 11Ah ish to 0.8v. 


The effect of internal resistance is apparent at as little as 100mA with D alkaline. 

Current vs capacity

25mA - 20.5Ah
100mA - ~16Ah
250mA - ~13Ah
500mA - ~11Ah 

Mag LED 2D draws around 650mAh after its fully warmed up with fresh batteries. The current changes with the battery voltage, but my guess is you can only get 9-10Ah of usable capacity.


----------



## NewBie

Handlobraesing said:


> That's at 25mA or so current draw. The characteristics might vary from brand to brand, but at 500mA, the Energizer E95 D only gets 11Ah ish to 0.8v.
> 
> 
> The effect of internal resistance is apparent at as little as 100mA with D alkaline.
> 
> Current vs capacity
> 
> 25mA - 20.5Ah
> 100mA - ~16Ah
> 250mA - ~13Ah
> 500mA - ~11Ah
> 
> Mag LED 2D draws around 650mAh after its fully warmed up with fresh batteries. The current changes with the battery voltage, but my guess is you can only get 9-10Ah of usable capacity.




For a reality check, go back to the first post in this thread:






Since the current draw less in the 3D an 4D, runtime is increased more than one would initially think-you get more out of each cell then.


----------



## Handlobraesing

NewBie said:


> For a reality check, go back to the first post in this thread:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Since the current draw less in the 3D an 4D, runtime is increased more than one would initially think-you get more out of each cell then.



The Ah capacity vs capacity data came from the Energizer site.
http://data.energizer.com/PDFs/E91.pdf

Irms( sqrt (ACA^2 + DCA^2) )  vs time graph is on its way. I'm in the process of wasting two D cells to make this graph. 






14 hours and down to 0.56A. 
It stayed in the 0.6 to 0.65A region for a long time, so ~8.4Ah down so far. I'll have to integrate at the end to get the real life Ah capacity of these cells. I think I'll stop the logging process once it reaches ~0.25A ish.


----------



## Blazer

Wow, I'm really impressed with all the technical knowhow and data you guys/gals come up with on these dropins. :goodjob: 


I just got my Terralux MaxStar3 3W Luxeon LED for a Maglite 3C or 3D (TLE-DB3) and threw it into a 3D Mag with fresh Alkaline Primaries.

I'm impressed. I usually don't use it for any more than 5 min at a time so heat buildup typically isn't a problem, what I'm looking for as a user is durability and reliability. This seems to have both (both the mag body and the dropin LED). The throw is awesome and I compared it to my original 1W Terralux dropin I've had for about 7-8 months and it's brighter and more white to my liking.

Overall I'm pleased with the 3W dropin for my usage purposes.


----------



## Al

Just picked up MagLed for 4D and threw it into my 3D ... runs just fine and easily out-throws Streamlight ProPolymer 4AA LUXEON.

Home Depot: $15.97 +tx


----------



## Handlobraesing

The problem with using a 4D module in a 3D light is that it will drop out of regulation sooner than it woudl with using a 3D module.


----------



## Al

Handlobraesing said:


> The problem with using a 4D module in a 3D light is that it will drop out of regulation sooner than it woudl with using a 3D module.


Well, I dunno 'bout that ... 
Fresh batts, 3D w/ 4D module. Set it up about 2ft. from an LM631 (no particular alignment - just in the beam).

Initial reading: 680 lux
After 6 min: 580 lux
After 16 min: 500 lux which by eye was roughly equiv. to my Streamlight.

Not a hi-tec test, but seems to closely match the temperature / time / output curve(s) in this thread.


----------



## PlayboyJoeShmoe

I can't do a light output reading of any sort, but I can do an Amp pull on a couple...

BRB...

edit> My "suspect" 2D (which needs 3D to be as bright as the other two I have. Started at 1.44A dropping rapidly to 1.18 and falling when I stopped the test.

My GOOD 2D... started and stays steady at .68

My good 3C is in my truck just now. I'll try to test it tomorrow!

For now a bit more testing on the suspect is due! <edit

further edit>The Suspect 2D is an major underachiever at .51 on 2D, gonna try one more thing... AH! Had a fairly dead D along with two good ones in that 3D. Two good D cells give about .78a and brightness is near the good 2 cell. Tint on the other hand is quite purple/pink. Reminds me of my stock (pre-Choped) KL3. At least I won't be frying the LED with 3 cells now! <edit

One more edit> The good 2 cell is the one I've gotten quite hot in experimenting with an 84 cent 2AA. If I run the good 2 against the P/P 2, after a minute or so the good 2 dims quite a bit, while the P/P 2 keeps right on trucking. HMMMMM..... <edit


----------



## Handlobraesing

After 27hours, the voltage of two batteries were dropped to 1.79v and current was 0.219A, so about 0.39W

~28% of thermally limited power stabilization earlier.


----------



## Lit Up

A co-worker tonight informed me of the Mag replacement modules being at Wal-Mart. (I humored him as I had heard this before about another store here and that wasn't the case) 
So I stopped in, and low and behold, they did have them. Only 4 left on the rung. They must be way more popular than the 2DLED Maglites they were selling. I have one 4D module ordered online already but said what the hell and picked up a 4D cell version while I was there. (I'll keep the other for a spare)

To be honest, from eyeballing it, I really don't see a discernable difference between it and the 2D MagLED light I had.
It lights up the same tree I was pointing at just as bright as the 2D version.
The spill on the 4D module looked maybe a hair brighter, but that's really about all the difference I could tell.

But I'll get more runtime with the 4D so that's good.


----------



## Handlobraesing

Ok here it is





The initial current started around 1.3A, but I truncated that part as it came plummeting down to what you see on the graph within a matter of minutes. The dip around 27 hours is when it enters moon mode.

"A AC + DC". This is the true RMS AC and DC current combined. I chose to use this read out over "DC" because of the AC content of the switching regulator in the base.

Close up:


----------



## PlayboyJoeShmoe

WOWSERS! Stays pretty bright for 18 hours! Useably bright for 27! 

Talk about kicking an Incandescents A$$!!!!


----------



## anygadget

TinderBox (UK) said:


> spot on empath.
> 
> their must be some way to get the heat from the bulb holder to the wall of the maglite.
> 
> I`ve had my maglite to bits about 20 times, trying to figuer out a way.
> 
> I`m still working on the problem.
> 
> regards.



When you take apart the light is it possible to tell if the bulb mounting column (switch assembly) is made of aluminum. In my 4D it looks like it is. 
If it is, has anyone tried using silver heatsink grease (what they use to fix CPU chips to the heatsink on the PC) to coat the drop-in LED can and also the floating focus sleeve in the switch assembly to create thermal contact to the switch assembly barrel?


----------



## cliff

PlayboyJoeShmoe said:


> WOWSERS! Stays pretty bright for 18 hours! Useably bright for 27!
> 
> Talk about kicking an Incandescents A$$!!!!


 
Over the past couple nights I have been test-burning mine with two 11,000 MaH Powerex NIMH D-cells. At the 18-hour mark my rudimentary light meter indicated brightness had not diminished, but at the 20-hour mark it indicated a slight dimming. The light was still plenty bright for a flashlight though.

It appears that if you run into a problem in the dark and need a flashlight, a sunrise will occur before you run out of juice. Probably two and possibly three if it is a long problem.


----------



## NewBie

PlayboyJoeShmoe said:


> WOWSERS! Stays pretty bright for 18 hours! Useably bright for 27!
> 
> Talk about kicking an Incandescents A$$!!!!




Remember, Handlobraesing's plots there, are current input, not light output.


Here is the light output I measured:


----------



## Handlobraesing

NewBie said:


> Remember, Handlobraesing's plots there, are current input, not light output.
> 
> 
> Here is the light output I measured:



Your graph and my graph would imply that efficiency is more than doubling between 18 and 27 hours, because the current drops by more than 50% and voltage is also going down.


----------



## mac66

Ok, I read the whole thread. So what is the verdict? Yeah or nay to replace a standard 3D cell maglite bulb?


----------



## Handlobraesing

mac66 said:


> Ok, I read the whole thread. So what is the verdict? Yeah or nay to replace a standard 3D cell maglite bulb?



Expect no gain in brightness, expect loss in how far the light can project. What you'll get is a whiter light and A LOT longer battery life. 

From there, its for you to decide.


----------



## JWong

I would like to know what ICs actually used in the MagLED module, expecially for the 2 cells one, and the circuit of the MagLED. Thanks!!


----------



## Brighteyez

From reading the thread, I think the consensus of opinion is that the Mag LED upgrade is a considerable improvement over the performance of the stock Krypton bulb. I really can't say as the first thing that I do with any Mag light is to toss the Krypton bulbs that come with the light and replace them with the Mag-num Star Xenon bulbs, though it is more likely to be one of the LED upgrades these days. 

The only thing that I can see that will scare off the mainstream consumer is that the LED upgrade bulb costs as much if not more than the actual Maglite. That's going to be kind of hard to swallow for a lot of folks (even to some pros that carry $60-100 flashlights)



mac66 said:


> Ok, I read the whole thread. So what is the verdict? Yeah or nay to replace a standard 3D cell maglite bulb?


----------



## webley445

Handlobraesing said:


> Expect no gain in brightness, expect loss in how far the light can project. What you'll get is a whiter light and A LOT longer battery life.


 
As far as throw goes, I would say it is an improvement for the 2 cell. For 3 cell its a toss up to personal opinion. 4 and up forget it.
For brightness it depends as some prefer the tint of leds and some do not, but my 2D w/led is reaching about the less if not just a little less than my 2x123 Scorpion.
just depends on personal preference.


----------



## PlayboyJoeShmoe

For a 2D or 2C I vote M*gled Hands down! 2 cells are the hardest to do anything to make brighter.

For 3 or more, you must choose between throw or usefull beam/brightness. They'll still toss light pretty good however.

I have a LED 3C in my truck. It was a Craftsman 1W light. The M*gled I replaced it with is a little brighter and whiter. 

I have a M*gcharger60 if I need to light up something far or VERY bright.

But I USE the 3C when I need it.

I also have M*gleds in the main lights that family will pick up if needed. Better beam and will not yellow like the dang incandescents will.

I'll probably get some more M*gleds as I can afford them. Maybe that tells you something....


----------



## Brighteyez

I'd have to agree with you about the 3 cell version if you're using Xenon bulb (all three of my 3 cells will outthrow the Krypton bulbs.) Haven't compared the 2 cell version, and didn't see any difference between the 3 and 4 cell versions.

Will have to try the 2 cell against some other lights. Don't have a Scorpion, but my TL-2 uses the same bulb and a similar reflector.



webley445 said:


> As far as throw goes, I would say it is an improvement for the 2 cell. For 3 cell its a toss up to personal opinion. 4 and up forget it.
> For brightness it depends as some prefer the tint of leds and some do not, but my 2D w/led is reaching about the less if not just a little less than my 2x123 Scorpion.
> just depends on personal preference.


----------



## NewBie

webley445 said:


> As far as throw goes, I would say it is an improvement for the 2 cell. For 3 cell its a toss up to personal opinion. 4 and up forget it.
> For brightness it depends as some prefer the tint of leds and some do not, but my 2D w/led is reaching about the less if not just a little less than my 2x123 Scorpion.
> just depends on personal preference.




Here is a line-up, after 20 minutes runtime (if I recall right), everything on fresh cells, 6D Mags with stock bulbs:


----------



## webley445

Excellent beam shots there Newbie. You've done alot of great work on this Magled thread and I wish more folks would read it as it answers practically every question I've seen posted on the MagLED since.

Seems alot of folks think the higher cell counts are brighter like in the incan version. 
I am basing my comments on practical use in the field. I have been using the 2 cell at work and comparing it along side of my Scorpion. Biggest problem I encounter is the color rendition of the white led output compared to then yellow of incan. One seems better than the other depending on conditions of ambient lighting and distance, at least to my aging eyes. YMMV


----------



## NewBie

If you take a look over at Quickbeam's site, you'll notice these puppies are owning the EverLED, and pretty close to the Diamond for Throw and Overall Output.

Stock Maglite:
http://www.flashlightreviews.com/reviews/maglite_3d.htm

3-D
Throw 6185 (78.65)
Overall Output 2300 (23.00)

4-D
Throw 9720 (98.59)
Overall Output 3800 (38.00)


MagLite's LED module:
http://www.flashlightreviews.com/reviews/maglite_mag-led.htm
2-D
Throw 6800 (82.46)
Overall Output 3800 (38.00)

3-D
Throw 7500 (86.60)
Overall Output 4750 (47.50)

4-D
Throw 7000 (83.66)
Overall Output4300 (43.00)


EverLED:
http://www.flashlightreviews.com/reviews/everled.htm

3C
Overall Output 1740 (17.40 standardized)

3D
Overall Output 2350 (23.50 standardized)

4D
Overall Output of 2440 (24.40 standardized)


Diamond 3W
http://www.flashlightreviews.com/reviews/diamond_magbulbs3w.htm

3D 
Throw 8400 (91.65)
Overall Output 4200 (42.00)


Most notable, you can see the Diamond drop in output in a bigtime hurry- to 50% output on the graphs. Well, the EverLED also drops in it's graphs. And if you look, you'll see even the Incandescent bulbs drop even worse. So the drop isn't unique to the MagLite LED module...

A link for the poor incandescent bulb performance:
http://www.flashlightreviews.com/reviews/maglite_3d.htm


Keep in mind, the human eye needs about a 20% difference to even see a difference in a simultaneous side-by-side comparision...

As usual, refer back to the first post in this thread for alot more details.


----------



## jburgett

Newbie,

Have you tried potting the inside of an assembly, to see if it reduces the output drop from self-heating?

I apologize in advance if this was discussed earlier in the thread - the length is getting looooong!


----------



## Marlite

Newbie

Great thread and very clear presentation of lack heat sink problem causing drop off in power to the bulb as cut off circuit engages. Reading the many good ideas and suggestions from all who participated a solution for Mr. Maglica will come from the CPF Brain Trust. Somebody tell the world.

 I called on industrial accounts when I sold shipping supplies and earned a customer with tape products that he loved and he lavished me with samples explaining his pot scrubbers "Chore Girl" was a knitted ball, of fine-square cut copper wire, softer, than pot material and wouldn't scratch pots. "Brillo Pads" are similar. _You got it._ The wire mass of hundreds of feet of copper wire pressed into the Mag around and under the bulb with maybe a type of 1-2" thin washer with a hole the size of the threaded shaft to keep the knitted sweater under control pressed against the wall of the Mag may be a very cheap mod maybe not an elegant mode but - Will this work?_
 
_ If so maybe we'll all give Mr. Tony a fit. I thought of coarse steel wool (but loose fibres are a messy problem) and fine copper filter material as I have a small square may lack mass layers of tooling copper sheets etc.

I put Lambda's SMJLED I got last week in a _2C Mag _.This was a definite improvement as I had upgraded to a 4cell Mag bulb which was ringy, yellow and artifacts were ugly in flood so it sat for a year in my desk drawer in the dark. 

Will theSMJLED have a similar heat problem as Empath noted on his Diamond and other LED's deteriorating due to heat stroke over a prolonged period?

Thanks to everyone for participating and Newbie for his hard work and patient tutoring.
Marlite


----------



## Brighteyez

Looks like Doug has his finished review now. So in looking at the graphs and comparing the graphs against those of the Diamond, I don't see what the Mag bashers have been whining about and this supposed inherent flaw in the product (that's rhetorical.) 



NewBie said:


> Most notable, you can see the Diamond drop in output in a bigtime hurry- to 50% output on the graphs. Well, the EverLED also drops in it's graphs. And if you look, you'll see even the Incandescent bulbs drop even worse. So the drop isn't unique to the MagLite LED module...


----------



## PlayboyJoeShmoe

BTW> I finally got around to Amping the 3C in my truck. Starts at .74 and goes down to around .65 in a minute or so. It doesn't APPEAR to dim like the one I tortured with a 123 and a 17500 in an 84cent 2AA....

Does have a somewhat cool tint, that looked flat BLUE when a customer shined has MC on the same wall!

Still, I like it much better than the Craftsman 1W I did have in that light!

And I MAY have talked that customer into buying one or two...


----------



## nikon

NewBie said:


> If you take a look over at Quickbeam's site, you'll notice these puppies are owning the EverLED, and pretty close to the Diamond for Throw and Overall Output.


 
NewBie.....The Everled shouldn't be included in this comparison for two reasons...

1- The version tested was a side emitter which has a very different sort of beam than the Mag and Diamond, both of which use Lambertians. The side emitter has far less throw and is less bright than the Lambertian.

2- The Everled was tested in an inexpensive plastic light with a faceted reflector. This light has nowhere near the performance of a Mag.

Given a sportin' chance, I believe the Everled would match the performance of the others.


----------



## pedalinbob

WOW! Fantastic work, Newbie! (you certainly are NOT a newbie when it comes to this stuff!) Excellent analysis by everyone else as well.

It appears that Newb shows the output to drop to around 35% to 42% in barely 10 minutes (2D and 2C, respectively).
Quickbeam shows the 3D starting at 47.7 output, dimming to about 55% output (26.2 ) in about 10 minutes.

This indicates some product variability, but it could simply be testing methods, equipment, bats, the cycles of the moon, etc.

We could safely assume that the Magled would average 50% output after 10 minutes.
Quickbeam shows the Everled falls to 65% in about 15 minutes.

The 3D MagLED starts at 47.5, and falls to 23.8.
The 2D MagLED starts at 38, and falls to 19.

Everled 3D output starts at 23.5, then should decrease to 15.3.
The 2D starts at 17.4, and would likely drop to 11.3, but this wasn't directly measured, so the drop could be different.

Despite the alarming drop in output of the MagLed, it looks like a real winner.
Even after the drop, the 2D output is greater than or equal to such notable players as the Fenix L1T, Nuwai Q3, Badboy 400, Everled, Peak Mediterranean, and Elektrolumens XM3.

The 3D output is greater than or equal to the Surefire KL1, Propolymer 4AA LED, Mag 3D incan, Fenix L2P, UK 4AA Zoom, TL2 LED 1st gen, Inova X5T (2nd gen), and the UK4AA incan.

I think I will get a couple of drop-ins later today...if I can find them.


----------



## PlayboyJoeShmoe

I think Pedalinbob has it nailed. If your M*g 2-4 cell is now basically stock, and you have coin... go get some of these! 

There is a lottery... tint and even brightness... but if you can get a couple of each, keep the "best" one and return the others.

They are a WAY worthy upgrade to the average Krypton bulb.... though hot rod lights, even 4 cells against 3 cell bulb need not apply.


----------



## nikon

I've been suspicious that the initial large drop in output of the Mag drop-in is not due to an increase in heat, but merely coincides with it. I just gave that idea a test and it seems to be confirmed. I believe the sharp drop in output is caused by excess voltage from the batteries being burned off in the first ten minutes or so. To test this, drop any brand new battery into a light, run it for ten minutes, and then measure the voltage. A CR123 lithium battery which started out as 3.25v. will now measure 3.0v. or less. A AA battery which started at 1.6v. will now measure 1.5v. or less. The batteries will then lose voltage at a rate which slows with continued use. 

Another factor which is at least sometimes involved is that the voltage of new batteries may exceed the vf of the emitter, bypassing the boost circuit and driving the emitter directly. This will cause some degree of heat buildup. 

I've just conducted a couple of short tests with a pair of Mag drop-ins. I ran three 15 min. tests on each with batteries having three different starting voltages, measuring the current draw before and after each run. The modules were allowed to cool for at least 15 min. between runs. The numbers below are the averaged results for the two modules for each run, and are rounded off for the sake of simplicity. Each number represents the sum for the pair of batteries used in each run.

Run 1- starting voltage = 3.2v..........current draw = 1.1A.
..........ending voltage = 2.95v..........current draw = .475A.

Run 2- starting voltage = 2.90v.........current draw = .460A.
..........ending voltage = 2.80v..........current draw = .440A.

Run 3- starting voltage = 2.7v..........current draw = .450A.
..........ending voltage = 2.60v..........current draw = .400A.

Immediately upon taking the last measurement, I loaded two brand new batteries into each light and found.....

Voltage = 3.1v...............................current draw = .950A.

The Mag module probably didn't have time to cool very much in the <1 min. it took to switch to the new batteries. I conclude from these measurements that the rapid voltage drop during the first use of a new battery is at least partially responsible for the sharp falloff in output seen in the runtime tests of the Mag module thus far. In order to record the output of a light in a more meaningful way, it would probably be better to start with "pre-conditioned batteries" with a no load voltage of no greater than 1.5v.


----------



## Handlobraesing

Try testing with NiMH, which inherently has lower voltage than alkaline. Heck, try using half discharged NiMH. Now, apply it to a Mag LED that's been allowed to cool off for at least 15 minutes. 

You will still notice a high di/dt in the first five minutes before it settles. Turn it off and let it cool off for 15 minutes and repeat. Same pattern repeats.


----------



## nikon

I won't be trying it with rechargeable batteries, since Mag says not to use them. Besides, the module gets such incredible runtimes on alkaline that using rechargeables is not worth the bother.

I have no idea why rechargeable batteries would behave differently in the above test, but if they do I'd suspect that the batteries themselves would be contributing to the results.


----------



## Brighteyez

I just made another post about that subject. The text from the Limited Warranty section appears to be a verbatim copy of what they have had on their incandescent bulbs for many years. I don't know how old it is, but the copy that I found was on a bulb that I bought over 6 years ago.

But you do have a point about the run time for alkaline batteries. The kind of run time that is available would well exceed the amount of use that the 'average consumer' give such a light in a year and in most cases they should probably replace the batteries (just as an annual ritual) before they even reach that level of use (and to minimize the potential for leakage.) Additionally, it would take a lot of use with the NiCD/NiMH batteries in order to recover their cost when compared to use with alkaline batteries. 

The flatter discharge curve from the rechargeables may yield slightly different results, but may not have any actual impact on the use or performance in real-life.



nikon said:


> I won't be trying it with rechargeable batteries, since Mag says not to use them. Besides, the module gets such incredible runtimes on alkaline that using rechargeables is not worth the bother.
> 
> I have no idea why rechargeable batteries would behave differently in the above test, but if they do I'd suspect that the batteries themselves would be contributing to the results.


----------



## Al

My 2 cents:

I think Mag has a winner here ... given the reasons anyone would use a large, heavy, almost indestructable flashlight of this type in the first place.

Recent power outage in my area (RI) ... set up two Magled's in "candle" mode at either end of my domicile and let 'em run. A few hours later, power's back, screwed the heads back on and back on the shelf they go with nary a thought about whether the batteries are a bit depleted.

Running in free air, dimming didn't seem to be a problem. If they did dim, it wasn't noticeable as our eyes would adjust to the available light anyway.

Sure there are other light / led combinations around, but considering what you get for less than $30 - I'll have a couple of these around the house for a long time.


----------



## infoseeker

Very nice testing and reviews regarding this MagLED 




> Thank you for your interest in Mag Instrument and its products. We are pleased to report that Mag will soon be adding MAG-LED™ flashlights to its product line.
> 
> If these products have been a long time coming, it’s because the MAG-LED™ Technology has taken a long time to develop to the point where it is feasible to make an LED flashlight that meets Mag Instrument's high standards of quality, durability, style and function.
> 
> Now, after years of research & development, testing and refinement, Mag Instrument is committed to introducing, in early 2006, a line of MAG-LED™ flashlights. Like Mag's incandescent-lamp flashlights, these newest members of the Maglite® flashlight family will have the style, performance, benefits and features that both professionals and consumers have come to expect from a Maglite® flashlight, including the fact that they are built for a lifetime of service. The Maglite® design tradition will be instantly recognizable in them, and they will offer the beam-focusing capability that has always been a feature of Mag® flashlights, AND MORE!
> 
> Again, thank you for your interest in Mag Instrument and its products. We look forward to the rollout of the MAG-LED™ flashlights in the near future.



i thot they really study the LED application to their products.

But hopefully they will come up in a interesting LED Products


infoseeker


----------



## 3rd_shift

It's kinda too bad that nobody has yet to come up with an aluminum "push in" heatsink with a pcb with a springy contact for the bulb holder (+) underneath.
It really looks quite do-able based on my previous led magmodding experiences, and would never need to drop in output due to heat.
Heck, I think I might could pull that one off if I had time. 

Just a thought. :thinking:

Anyone, please feel free to quote this whole thing in case someone "borrows" my idea later on.  

Now back to our regularly scheduled programming.


----------



## Handlobraesing

The junction temperature is probably in the region of boiling point of water and data. Lumileds' data shows permanent loss in lumen kicks in around 2,000 hours, but no data is given past 2,000 hours.
http://www.lumileds.com/pdfs/AB07.PDF

I would guess the useful time of the LED to be around 5,000 hours. More than for a flashlight, but unacceptably low for general lighting


----------



## NewBie

nikon said:


> I've been suspicious that the initial large drop in output of the Mag drop-in is not due to an increase in heat, but merely coincides with it. I just gave that idea a test and it seems to be confirmed. I believe the sharp drop in output is caused by excess voltage from the batteries being burned off in the first ten minutes or so. To test this, drop any brand new battery into a light, run it for ten minutes, and then measure the voltage. A CR123 lithium battery which started out as 3.25v. will now measure 3.0v. or less. A AA battery which started at 1.6v. will now measure 1.5v. or less. The batteries will then lose voltage at a rate which slows with continued use.
> 
> Another factor which is at least sometimes involved is that the voltage of new batteries may exceed the vf of the emitter, bypassing the boost circuit and driving the emitter directly. This will cause some degree of heat buildup.
> 
> I've just conducted a couple of short tests with a pair of Mag drop-ins. I ran three 15 min. tests on each with batteries having three different starting voltages, measuring the current draw before and after each run. The modules were allowed to cool for at least 15 min. between runs. The numbers below are the averaged results for the two modules for each run, and are rounded off for the sake of simplicity. Each number represents the sum for the pair of batteries used in each run.
> 
> Run 1- starting voltage = 3.2v..........current draw = 1.1A.
> ..........ending voltage = 2.95v..........current draw = .475A.
> 
> Run 2- starting voltage = 2.90v.........current draw = .460A.
> ..........ending voltage = 2.80v..........current draw = .440A.
> 
> Run 3- starting voltage = 2.7v..........current draw = .450A.
> ..........ending voltage = 2.60v..........current draw = .400A.
> 
> Immediately upon taking the last measurement, I loaded two brand new batteries into each light and found.....
> 
> Voltage = 3.1v...............................current draw = .950A.
> 
> The Mag module probably didn't have time to cool very much in the <1 min. it took to switch to the new batteries. I conclude from this that the rapid voltage drop during the first use of a new battery is at least partially responsible for the sharp falloff in output seen in the runtime tests thus far. In order to record the output of a light in a more meaningful way, it would probably be better to start with "pre-conditioned batteries" with a no load voltage of no greater than 1.5v.




You can hit the Mag LED module with a good blast of freeze spray and watch the output jump up on the light meter and also watch the current jump up.

So, it is confirmed that heat is a major player- as I mentioned long ago.

You can also pull the PCB out of the module and run it stand alone, and watch very much the same thing- it's pretty neat to watch it real time.


----------



## milkyspit

Handlobraesing said:


> The junction temperature is probably in the region of boiling point of water and data. Lumileds' data shows permanent loss in lumen kicks in around 2,000 hours, but no data is given past 2,000 hours.
> http://www.lumileds.com/pdfs/AB07.PDF
> 
> I would guess the useful time of the LED to be around 5,000 hours. More than for a flashlight, but unacceptably low for general lighting



Just guessing, but I'll bet Mag's strategic view of these LED modules is as replaceable, consumable items, just like its bulbs. Let's face it... Joe Consumer will typically buy a replacement Mag bulb for his Maglite, and will probably buy a replacement Mag LED bulb when he cooks the one that came with his light, especially if Maglite has been confusing him the whole time with a bunch of mumbo jumbo about "Projecting Beam," "Balanced Optics," "Interchangeable Light Sourcing," "Intelligent Energy Source Management," patents pending, and the like. I might even go so far as to suspect Mag might have purposefully designed their LED bulbs with poor heatsinking to ensure that folks will be seeking out replacements for their now-dim-or-fried modules around the time they anticipate the incandescent replacement market to begin slowing down. Result in Mag's eyes: rather than selling incandescent bulbs at $2 or so a pop, they get to sell LED "bulbs" at $15-20 a pop! Everything about the design and construction of the modules seems to speak to minimizing production costs, first to wipe the slate clean of all potential competitors (and let the legal department wipe out the rest), then to maximize profit margin on the new parts.

It's a common corporate tactic these days to introduce some product improvement, charge more for it by virtue of being an improvement (even if the "improvement" is actually cheaper to make), and thereby permanently lock-in higher prices for essentially the same parts, with the consumer accepting all this as progress. One of many examples: an audio CD has long been LESS expensive to manufacture than a cassette tape, and yet prices have ALWAYS been much higher for these, and in the past few years have actually INCREASED for new releases. And the consumer, for the most part, accepts it.

Back on topic, or at least getting closer. Same lights, different bulbs. The incan in the tailcap is probably there because the assembly line plops 'em into ALL the tailcaps, and the ONLY difference in these lights is that an LED bulb sits in the head end. Makes production cost of the light virtually identical except for the couple dollars per LED module... and Mag more than makes up for that by selling the lights for $10 or so more than the same incan light.

The 2 cell, 3 cell, 4 cell LED bulb concept seems to parallel the 2, 3, 4 cell incan bulbs, too. Mag could just as easily have made a single buck/boost circuit for their bulbs as EverLED has done... given the efficiency of the Mag circuit(s), IMHO they couldn't have done much worse with a buck/boost arrangement.

It's not that the Mag LED bulbs are terrible, but rather that to me, Mag could have done so much better if they sincerely had any interest in realizing the true potential of LED lighting, namely efficiency and lifespan. Oh well.
:sigh:


----------



## Empath

milkyspit said:


> Handlobraesing said:
> 
> 
> 
> The junction temperature is probably in the region of boiling point of water and data. Lumileds' data shows permanent loss in lumen kicks in around 2,000 hours, but no data is given past 2,000 hours.
> http://www.lumileds.com/pdfs/AB07.PDF
> 
> I would guess the useful time of the LED to be around 5,000 hours. More than for a flashlight, but unacceptably low for general lighting
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Just guessing, but I'll bet Mag's strategic view of these LED modules is as replaceable, consumable items, just like its bulbs.
Click to expand...


Your guessing is based on Handlobraesing's guessing, and his less than factual data, which is says is "_*probably*_ in the region of boiling point of water". As he say's, "no data is given past 2,000 hours", yet he's giving 5000 hours as the life. His link offers nothing to substantiate his "guess". As for his "guess" of "boiling point" operating temperatures, there's no telling where he came up with that.

You can get the operating temperature from the first posting in this thread. It's _72.7 degrees C (162.9 F)_. That's a far cry from boiling point of _100 degrees C (212 F)_.

It's a drop in module, not a newly designed flashlight. It competes against the other drop in modules. Like the other modules, it doesn't require modification of anything about the light. Mag's way of dealing with the heat issue is one way, and probably the only reasonable way, of addressing the inability to use a heat sink without modifying the flashlight. There is every indication that Mag has reasonably protected the module, and no indication that Mag has built in a deliberate early failure.


----------



## evan9162

> You can get the operating temperature from the first posting in this thread. It's 72.7 degrees C (162.9 F). That's a far cry from boiling point of 100 degrees C (212 F).


No, it's not.
the 72C is the temperature of the module. Handlobraesing's talking about *junction temperature*, and his guess is based on very well accepted methods of estimating junction temperature in luxeon LEDs. The junction of a luxeon emitter will be 13C/W higher than the slug temperature. If the module throttles down to ~1W or so at that temperature, then the *junction temperature* is around 95C, pretty darn close to boiling, don't you think?

And his lifespan estimates aren't that far off either. The output degridation curve can be extrapolated from that graph which shows a dropoff at 2000 hours, using accepted best fit curves for LED output degridation. Lumileds does that in several documents where they extrapolate output vs lifetime over 10s of thousands of hours, given only a few thousand hours worth of data. His 5000 hour guess is based on the shape of those curves, and the fact that the cutoff point is usually the 70% output level. It's not unreasonable at all.

Look at pages 9 and 10 of this document:
http://www.luxeon.com/pdfs/RD25.pdf
And you'll see how they extrapolate out the degridation curves for operation under high temperatures. Put a similar shape to the 2000 hour high temperature data from the other document, and you'll see that the 70% mark hits at around 5000 hours.


----------



## Empath

Thank you, Evan; that's interesting.

I guess we'll get an idea of the accuracy of the view that Mag will treat the LED as a replacement lamp like their others, when we get to see the MiniMag LED. If Milky's theory is correct, regarding Mag's business model for the LED, then we'll see a MiniMag with a easily user replaceable module, and little cards hanging along with MiniMag's with replacement 3 watt LED lamps, just like we do the T1 lamps for MiniMags now.

Incidentally, Evan, I'll give you a way to really trounce on big bad Mag. The competing drop-in replacements, like Terralux, Diamond, and EverLED, surely have to address the heat issue too. Not being Mag, undoubtedly you're aware their method is surely superior. Could you explain their heat management system to us, and why it's better than Mag's? Could you let us know the junction temperatures, and how they found a way to make 'em brighter, cooler, and good for 100,000 hours?


----------



## Ledz

so does adjusting the head really do all that much? are there picts of the beam pattern at various stages of adjustment?


----------



## watt4

72 + 13 = 85


----------



## Brighteyez

If you're already familiar with a Mag light, just think of it as a replacement of the light source (replacing the bulb). The characteristics that were there when you had an incandescent bulb will still be there when you put the reflector back on with the LED module. That having been said though, the artifacts that are present with the incandescent bulbs are considerably less noticable with the LED version and the hot spot is relatively round, unlike the harsh hotspot blob from the incandescent.

Might want to take a look at http://www.flashlightreviews.com/reviews/maglite_mag-led.htm so see a couple of shots of the focusing at each extreme.

Also ... Welcome to CPF! 



Ledz said:


> so does adjusting the head really do all that much? are there picts of the beam pattern at various stages of adjustment?


----------



## webley445

Ledz said:


> so does adjusting the head really do all that much? are there picts of the beam pattern at various stages of adjustment?


 
I find no real difference in adjusting the beam to a certain extent. You either have a black hole or a tight spot. Doesn't seem to help with creating a flood effect like the incan bulb. Just MHO.


----------



## NewBie

watt4 said:


> 72 + 13 = 85




Brilliant!

If one cares to visit the datasheet, one will find a stated lifetime for the Luxeon I:
"Lifetime for solidstate lighting devices (LEDs) is typically defined in terms of lumen maintenance—the percentage of initial light output remaining after a specified period of time. Lumileds projects that LUXEON products will deliver on average 70% lumen maintenance at 50,000 hours of operation. This performance is based on independent test data, Lumileds historical data from
tests run on similar material systems, and internal LUXEON reliability testing. This projection is based on constant current 350 mA operation with junction temperature maintained at or below 90°C."
http://www.lumileds.com/pdfs/DS25.pdf

Luxeon III:
"Lumileds projects that white, green, cyan, blue, and royal blue LUXEON III products will deliver, on average, 70% lumen maintenance at 50,000 hours of operation at a 700 mA forward current or 50% lumen maintenance at 20,000 hours of operation at a 1000 mA forward current. Lumileds projects that red, redorange ,and amber LUXEON III products will deliver, on average 50% lumen maintenance at 20,000 hours of operation at a 1400 mA forward current. This performance is based on independent test data, Lumileds historical data from tests run on similar material systems, and internal LUXEON reliability testing. This projection is based on constant current operation with junction temperature maintained at or below 90°C."
http://www.lumileds.com/pdfs/DS45.pdf

So, from these statements, since the die is kept below 90C, the MagLite LED should last quite a long time...


BTW, that graph in AB07 is very outdated. Last I heard, and this is quite dated, but much more recent-from the same fellas:






And a little more info:





Some references:
http://www.lrc.rpi.edu/programs/solidstate/pdf/narendran-gu-JDT2005.pdf


----------



## evan9162

watt4 said:


> 72 + 13 = 85



crap


----------



## evan9162

NewBie said:


> Brilliant!



my brilliance has no limits.


----------



## evan9162

Empath said:


> Incidentally, Evan, I'll give you a way to really trounce on big bad Mag. The competing drop-in replacements, like Terralux, Diamond, and EverLED, surely have to address the heat issue too. Not being Mag, undoubtedly you're aware their method is surely superior. Could you explain their heat management system to us, and why it's better than Mag's? Could you let us know the junction temperatures, and how they found a way to make 'em brighter, cooler, and good for 100,000 hours?



EverLed apparently does do thermal throttling, but only ever run their modules at 350mA or lower. If they don't keep temperatures lower than the Mag drop-ins, then they will suffer the same lifetime shortage that the mag modules do.

If you look at my posting history, you will see that I've criticized the diamond modules multiple times in the past for their complete lack of thermal management in any form, and have recommended several times against getting the modules. There's no way those modules are going to get 100K hours of lifespan from them, and except for initial brightness, they are inferior to the mag modules in pretty much every way.

Neglecting proper thermal management for power LEDs will gain my criticism, regardless of who is doing it.

BTW, I don't appreciate the tone of your post. You are insinuating that I have some personal beef with Mag - which you will find is completly unjustified given that my posting history gives no indication as such.


----------



## Empath

evan9162 said:


> BTW, I don't appreciate the tone of your post. You are insinuating that I have some personal beef with Mag - which you will find is completly unjustified given that my posting history gives no indication as such.



Deserved chastisement noted. :bow:


----------



## Greenlead

Hey guys, I sent an email off to Maglite about the heatsink issue.

In retrospect, I should've proofread and worded it more carefully. I oversummarized, and should have been MUCH more polite. I also could have used a word other than "adequate". 

I hope they don't hold grudges. Here is the email exchange with no edits (other than to remove my personal information.

---------------

[greenlead]:

Those folks are wrong, we do have adequate heat sinks, This is exactly how the module is designed to work. Because this is a retro-fit design with inherent poor heat sinking, we cannot sustain our high output power operation because of thermal limits. Therefore we are as bright as possible for as long as possible. As the module heats up, we must throttle pack on output power (brightness).

Don



---------- ORIGINAL MESSAGE ----------
TO : Mag Instrument, Inc. Web Site (www.magmail.com) 
FROM : [my email] 
RECEIVED: 8/1/2006 12:53:18 PM EST

The folks at the CandlePowerForums (http://www.candlepowerforums.com) have mentioned that the LED conversion module for the C and D cell Maglite flashlights lacks an adequate heatsink, and therefore the flashlight does not perform as well as it could.

Is this a known issue, and is your engineering team working to resolve it?


----------



## Brighteyez

Isn't that pretty much the conclusion that has been arrived at all along?
Actually, by their response, it would sound like they are already aware of the lack of heat sinking in the Mag Lite's design.

I'd be more inclined to believe that they would have found greater offense from your last line, it suggests that their engineers don't have a clue and that this is an inherent flaw in the product (when it is actually working as designed.) Don't know how sensitive Mag's engineers are to those comments of that nature, but computer engineers (SW & HW) are quick to dismiss most of them since every computer geeks seems to think he's a know-it-all. More likely the engineers never see the comments, just the customer service folks.




Greenlead said:


> Hey guys, I sent an email off to Maglite about the heatsink issue.
> 
> In retrospect, I should've proofread and worded it more carefully. I oversummarized, and should have been MUCH more polite. I also could have used a word other than "adequate".
> 
> I hope they don't hold grudges. Here is the email exchange with no edits (other than to remove my personal information.
> 
> ---------------
> 
> [greenlead]:
> 
> Those folks are wrong, we do have adequate heat sinks, This is exactly how the module is designed to work. Because this is a retro-fit design with inherent poor heat sinking, we cannot sustain our high output power operation because of thermal limits. Therefore we are as bright as possible for as long as possible. As the module heats up, we must throttle pack on output power (brightness).
> 
> Don
> 
> 
> 
> ---------- ORIGINAL MESSAGE ----------
> TO : Mag Instrument, Inc. Web Site (www.magmail.com)
> FROM : [my email]
> RECEIVED: 8/1/2006 12:53:18 PM EST
> 
> The folks at the CandlePowerForums (http://www.candlepowerforums.com) have mentioned that the LED conversion module for the C and D cell Maglite flashlights lacks an adequate heatsink, and therefore the flashlight does not perform as well as it could.
> 
> Is this a known issue, and is your engineering team working to resolve it?


----------



## Greenlead

Brighteyez said:


> Isn't that pretty much the conclusion that has been arrived at all along?
> Actually, by their response, it would sound like they are already aware of the lack of heat sinking in the Mag Lite's design.
> 
> I'd be more inclined to believe that they would have found greater offense from your last line, it suggests that their engineers don't have a clue and that this is an inherent flaw in the product (when it is actually working as designed.) Don't know how sensitive Mag's engineers are to those comments of that nature, but computer engineers (SW & HW) are quick to dismiss most of them since every computer geeks seems to think he's a know-it-all. More likely the engineers never see the comments, just the customer service folks.


Yeah, given that I'm a computer geek, I was pretty much looking at my email in horror when I got the response. I've been on the wrong side of that sort of thing a few times.


----------



## Brighteyez

Then you're not as much of a geek as you think, which is good; you should see the postings from gamer types and the postings on the manufacturer sites of those who make computers or computer related peripherals. You'd think they were all 14 years old, unfortunately some of those posts come from 35 and 40+ year old males who are going on 14. 

Reading some thing like that and being shocked at what you wrote is not a bad thing, it's an increased level of awareness. Think of all those deprived souls who will go down the path of life repeating the same stupid things over and over again because they have blinders on and cannot see. So consider yourself blessed with a gift from this experience.




Greenlead said:


> Yeah, given that I'm a computer geek, I was pretty much looking at my email in horror when I got the response. I've been on the wrong side of that sort of thing a few times.


----------



## PlayboyJoeShmoe

None of any of this would stop me from buying any more M*gled modules, should I be ABLE to....

The 3C in my truck is mighty nice, as is the 3D by the front door!!!


----------



## AFAustin

A few posts back, there was some discussion of NiMH use in the Mag LED, despite the manufacturer warning not to. I previously had a Mag 3C w/ a Magnum Star xenon bulb, and I got good performance out of it using 3 AA NiMH cells in a PVC sleeve. I would recharge every hour or less to maintain brightness, and the AA cells made the torch a good bit lighter. 

I've got a 2C Mag LED on the way, and I'd really like to use 2 AA NiMH (2700 mAh) cells and a PVC sleeve in it in the same manner. Is there really a danger to doing this, as Mag states in their warning? I know runtime would be less than with 2 C alkies, but it should still be plenty for my purposes. Given the different discharge characteristics of NiMH cells, would a higher output level be maintained for a longer time than with alkies?

Thanks for any guidance.


----------



## Phaserburn

I doubt you'd see any perfomance increase in brightness. The Magled module _limits current_ to what an alkline C cell can comfortably manage over many hours to prevent heat damage. So, while nimh can put out more current, the led won't be having it. You'll perhaps save a little weight, but you'll also cut lots of regulated runtime. To me, Maglite specifically designed this light to be a good performer with alk cells; it's this light's raison d'etre. Unlike incans, getting away from this fact just causes downside, like the fact that nimh AA cells will self discharge comparitively quickly, while alk C cells will hang in for many years. Why constantly open this light to charge AA cells?


----------



## AFAustin

Phaserburn said:


> I doubt you'd see any perfomance increase in brightness. The Magled module _limits current_ to what an alkline C cell can comfortably manage over many hours to prevent heat damage. So, while nimh can put out more current, the led won't be having it. You'll perhaps save a little weight, but you'll also cut lots of regulated runtime. To me, Maglite specifically designed this light to be a good performer with alk cells; it's this light's raison d'etre. Unlike incans, getting away from this fact just causes downside, like the fact that nimh AA cells will self discharge comparitively quickly, while alk C cells will hang in for many years. Why constantly open this light to charge AA cells?



Phaserburn,

Thanks for the informative reply. You make an excellent point. I guess I'd gotten so used to looking for any alternative to alkalines, I was slow to recognize a light optimized for them.

Thanks again.


----------



## Destroid Monster

I ordered the 3W drop-in for 4C/D from lighthound prior to reading up this thread....I go thru the 10 pages & try to digest as much as I could, but as I have lotsa of Primary Lithium AA lying around (with battery adaptors), can I use 4 of them straight on the drop-in without burning up the drop-in prematurely?

I understand that Lithiums has a higher voltage than Alkalines so before I fry my new bulb is there any advice from you gurus?

I'm also toying with the idea of using aluminium foil to fabricate a simple & cheap heatsink to surround the emitter to dissipate the heat.

Any advice?


----------



## Destroid Monster

Upz.... Any help?


----------



## QuadMan

I think it should be okay because the thermal regulation will keep the led in specs. Also I think I read that someone put a 3 cell in a 4 cell light and didn't get instant smoke (putting 6v into 4.5v bulb).

EDIT---After searching through the posts I believe I made a mistake. I think it may have been someone put a 4 cell in a 3 cell light. Sorry. But I still think you should be okay because of the buck circuitry and the thermal limiting circuit.----EDIT


----------



## abvidledUK

The way Cops use them, ie Flashlights, presumably will give the highest output, as the torch is only on for a few seconds / minutes at a time, and thermally will therefore recover ?


----------



## PlayboyJoeShmoe

I didn't want to start a new thread just for this.

Here is a beam comparison between 2,3 and 4 cell M*gleds. Taken within a minute of turning them on. I really couldn't say one was any brighter than another. But I did notice tint differences between the three.

Shined on their own, only the 4 cell doesn't look WHITE, but rather cool. The other two look WHITE alone.







I apologize for the poor quality, but it's only a 1.3 MP camera. I shot in 1288 mode and shrunk it down in Irfanview. I did NOT fool with brightness or contrast. What you see is what I got. Well, as much as possible...

edit> I have a few other shots in the "moon" modes... may post another <edit

edit again> The 2 cell and 4 cell DO seem to overwhelm the 3 cell, but it could just be tint. All have diffusing lenses, so keep that in mind <edit


----------



## Destroid Monster

Quadman,
Thanks for your inputs.

I bugged John from Lighoound for his opinion on using Lithium AAs & he replied that it should be fine too. I find out if it works by end of this week when my package arrive


----------



## QuadMan

Destroid Monster said:


> Quadman,
> Thanks for your inputs.
> 
> I bugged John from Lighoound for his opinion on using Lithium AAs & he replied that it should be fine too. I find out if it works by end of this week when my package arrive


You're welcome!

To put your mind at even more ease, check out this thread by SilverFox: http://candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=64660

The 9th and 10th graph in the 1st post shows that the initial 1.7 volts of AA lithiums dropping down almost immediately to about 1.4 volts. And since even alkalines can start out at over 1.6 volts, these Mag dropins should be designed to handle that short spike. (Your lithiums are the 1.7V and not the 3.0V variety?)

Also, if you recheck the first 2 pages of this thread, you'll see that NewBie did a great job of showing both the thermal and voltage regulation of these dropins.

Let us know how they work out. 

(Just curious, are you putting these in a 4cell Mag with adapters or a 2cell Mag with a battery carrier and a dummy cell?)


----------



## europium

NewBie said:


> Brilliant!
> 
> If one cares to visit the datasheet, one will find a stated lifetime for the Luxeon I:
> "Lifetime for solidstate lighting devices (LEDs) is typically defined in terms of lumen maintenance—the percentage of initial light output remaining after a specified period of time. Lumileds projects that LUXEON products will deliver on average 70% lumen maintenance at 50,000 hours of operation. This performance is based on independent test data, Lumileds historical data from
> tests run on similar material systems, and internal LUXEON reliability testing. This projection is based on constant current 350 mA operation with junction temperature maintained at or below 90°C."
> http://www.lumileds.com/pdfs/DS25.pdf
> 
> Luxeon III:
> "Lumileds projects that white, green, cyan, blue, and royal blue LUXEON III products will deliver, on average, 70% lumen maintenance at 50,000 hours of operation at a 700 mA forward current or 50% lumen maintenance at 20,000 hours of operation at a 1000 mA forward current. Lumileds projects that red, redorange ,and amber LUXEON III products will deliver, on average 50% lumen maintenance at 20,000 hours of operation at a 1400 mA forward current. This performance is based on independent test data, Lumileds historical data from tests run on similar material systems, and internal LUXEON reliability testing. This projection is based on constant current operation with junction temperature maintained at or below 90°C."
> http://www.lumileds.com/pdfs/DS45.pdf
> 
> So, from these statements, since the die is kept below 90C, the MagLite LED should last quite a long time...


Newbie, I may have missed it somewhere in this long thread (I did read it all over 3 or 4 days, though), but did you verify *for certain* that Mag is using Luxeons? These LEDs are not something else, *they are in fact Luxeon LEDs*? I didn't see any close up pictures that showed "Lumileds" anywhere.

I apologize if this is a stupid question. :shrug:


----------



## europium

evan9162 said:


> EverLed apparently does do thermal throttling, but only ever run their modules at 350mA or lower. If they don't keep temperatures lower than the Mag drop-ins, then they will suffer the same lifetime shortage that the mag modules do.
> 
> If you look at my posting history, you will see that I've criticized the diamond modules multiple times in the past for their complete lack of thermal management in any form, and have recommended several times against getting the modules. There's no way those modules are going to get 100K hours of lifespan from them, and except for initial brightness, they are inferior to the mag modules in pretty much every way.
> 
> Neglecting proper thermal management for power LEDs will gain my criticism, regardless of who is doing it....


Interestingly, when I bought an LED module for my 3D Mag months ago, I decided to get the 1W with a driver: 

here: http://www.flash-lights.com/product_info.php/info/p164_1-Watt-Luxeon-LED-bulb-w--LED-driver-fits-Maglite-2-3-C-D-cells.html 

reviewed here: http://www.flashlightreviews.com/reviews/diamond_magbulbs1w.htm 

I specifically ignored Doug's advice regarding heat for two reasons: 

(1) I don't use the Mag that much, & 
(2) By the time the constant excess heat renders the LED output no longer adequate, I can get something better and brighter.

Now there is a K2 module, which of course offers better thermal characteristics than either the Lux 3 or Lux 1: 
http://www.flash-lights.com/product_info.php/info/p11616_Luxeon-K2-LED-Bulb-Replacement-Maglite-C-D-White-LED.html 

I bought the Mag years ago and simply wanted something to make the light useful again. I may not 'upgrade' a second time, simply donating the light to Goodwill and spending the money on some other better smaller light, maybe even a 3AA Minimag LED. :naughty:

So a point to consider about Mag's "poor heat management" for their drop ins: LED technology continues to progress and, _*by the time most people might need to replace their MagLEDs some years hence*_, Mag may be selling brighter, cooler replacements. Indeed, improvements may continue apace to the point that people with perfectly functioning present-made MagLEDs decide to replace them with the improved Mag modules.


----------



## NewBie

For those looking for 3 or more times longer runtime (with a loss of only 30% of your light), and have the soldering skills, I posted a how to thread over here:
http://candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=130861


----------



## mtnwalker

I'm curious about just how much more battery life I should expect now that I am using these new MagLed bulbs. I bought the replacement for my 3D and my 4D and installed both using the existing batteries (which had already dimmed the existing incand. bulbs..).
Previously, I was replacing alkaline batteries in all my flashlights when the volts were down to about 1.3V.
The other day, I replaced my MM/NiteIze combo batteries when they had gone down to 0.9V....that one is a real battery scavenger.
How low should the full 3D/4D MagLed be able to utilize the batteries, my 4D is at 1.1V now and is still doing fine, but I think I'm getting close. 
Thanks for any answers here.
Rando


----------



## mtnwalker

Just bumping this up here. I also have another question. My LED module for the 3D has a bendable "tab" for the rear connection, instead of a round flat fixed contact spot. Antone know why they seem to be made both ways. I think I can tell the tab does not make as good a contact because while adjusting the focus, sometimes I can see a slight flicker, then it is bright again when I stop twisting the head. My 4D has a flat round fixed rear contact.
Answers?


----------



## nikon

mtnwalker said:


> Just bumping this up here. I also have another question. My LED module for the 3D has a bendable "tab" for the rear connection, instead of a round flat fixed contact spot. Antone know why they seem to be made both ways. I think I can tell the tab does not make as good a contact because while adjusting the focus, sometimes I can see a slight flicker, then it is bright again when I stop twisting the head. My 4D has a flat round fixed rear contact.
> Answers?


All of the 3D modules I've seen lately have the fixed round contact. My guess is that they've done away with the tab.


----------



## NewBie

I just looked at the store today, and all the 2, 3, and 4 cell had the fixed contact.


----------



## bestcounsel

Help me out here guys....gals....

Is not the new Mag D 3watt lux drop in brighter than the original Krypton bubls? 

Does one not get better run time?

Does one not have to worry about the bulbs breaking? 

What is the problem with these bulbs?

flashlight reviews had a good review of these drop ins and stated that the 3d was the best bang for the buck. 

I have a couple of 3d mags lying around and was thinking of trying one out.


----------



## hank

Here's a page on handling a 50-watt heat source with homebuilt heat pipe:

http://www.benchtest.com/heat_pipe1.html
and the end result
http://www.benchtest.com/heat_pipe2_2.html

And his concluding comment -- does this sound oh so familiar?

" Now that I know that it is possible to cool a CPU by a home built heat pipe contraption, I am thinking toward the next step. Designing a case as a heat pipe sink. With some thought, it should be possible to make a case where the case itself is the heat sink. As it stands now, the computer case is nothing more than a box that holds all of the components. Why not make it a working part of the computer? "

Here's LED cooling commercially:
http://www.aavidthermalloy.com/products/led/index.shtml

"... cooling solutions for the new generation of LED light sources from Lumileds™. Our standard products make it easy to quickly prototype designs. "

And here:
http://www.lightstreamphotonics.com/technology.htm

"... the marriage of high power LEDs and heat pipe technology which allows for ultra-high power density packaging. The ultra-high thermal conductivity of the heat pipe (effectively 1000x that of copper) allows for over-driving the LEDs by a factor of 4x, while maintaining junction temperatures well within rated limits...."


----------



## hank

Europium wrote 8/27 about the Diamond dropins, 

"now there is the K2 module, which of course offers better thermal characteristics than either the Lux 3 or Lux 1" 

I see the K2 for about $25 and the Luxeon 3 "on sale" at the same price, for example at quality-items-flashlights.com


----------



## PlayboyJoeShmoe

bestcounsel said:


> Help me out here guys....gals....
> 
> Is not the new Mag D 3watt lux drop in brighter than the original Krypton bubls?
> 
> Does one not get better run time?
> 
> Does one not have to worry about the bulbs breaking?
> 
> What is the problem with these bulbs?
> 
> flashlight reviews had a good review of these drop ins and stated that the 3d was the best bang for the buck.
> 
> I have a couple of 3d mags lying around and was thinking of trying one out.



I think you'll be pleased! I urge you (if you have the money) to get a few more than you need. To some level (not as bad as the old days) the LED Lottery is in effect. Pick the best of the bunch and return the others.

You may also find the some diffusion of the lense helps the beam a bit, since we can't easily center these up in the reflectors.


----------



## Someone

Btw, couldn't Mag-lite have made the bulb holder from metal instead of plastic to increase heat conductivity?


----------



## Mr_Light

Here are some shots of my 6 MagLed drop-ins in various flashlights. 

The first shot is of my six host lights
Left to right
2C Eveready Captain #1
2C Eveready Captain #2
2C MagLite
2D Eveready Captain
3D Eveready Captain
2D Eveready 50's Vintage (same type PR bulb holder)






The 2nd is a beam of my six host lights
Left to right (same light order)




Third we have the bulb holder for the 2D Captain with a coil of aluminum flashing used to secure the MagLed Bulb in place of the snap-on plastic bulb holder which doesn't fit over the MagLed (bigger then PR standard)





Next is a close-up of the uncoiled piece of aluminum flashing used to help secure the bulb as well as to improve heat transfer to the metal bulb holder.




Last we have the assembled bulb holder with the coiled flashing surrounding the MAGLED bulb. Note don't throw away the plastic bulb holder in case you ever want to put in a standard size PR bulb.




All of these work great a nice hot spot and a very wide spill. My favorites are the 2C Captains


----------



## thunderlight

I have used 1 inch metal prong fasteners rather than aluminum flashing. These are available in boxes of 100 for around $3 at Staples. They're already the correct width, so all you have to do is bend them around the "PR" base of the magled dropin. Make sure that they fit around the base of the dropin and at the same time are tight enough to fit into the aperature of the reflector assembly, but loose enough to hold everything in place. It would probably be prudent to use gloves when you're bending the fastener.


----------



## etc

I modded a 4D and am pleased. For $15..... it is a good deal. Now for $100, I would expect much more, including heat sink.


----------



## NewBie

hank said:


> Here's a page on handling a 50-watt heat source with homebuilt heat pipe:
> 
> http://www.benchtest.com/heat_pipe1.html
> and the end result
> http://www.benchtest.com/heat_pipe2_2.html
> 
> And his concluding comment -- does this sound oh so familiar?
> 
> " Now that I know that it is possible to cool a CPU by a home built heat pipe contraption, I am thinking toward the next step. Designing a case as a heat pipe sink. With some thought, it should be possible to make a case where the case itself is the heat sink. As it stands now, the computer case is nothing more than a box that holds all of the components. Why not make it a working part of the computer? "
> 
> Here's LED cooling commercially:
> http://www.aavidthermalloy.com/products/led/index.shtml
> 
> "... cooling solutions for the new generation of LED light sources from Lumileds™. Our standard products make it easy to quickly prototype designs. "
> 
> And here:
> http://www.lightstreamphotonics.com/technology.htm
> 
> "... the marriage of high power LEDs and heat pipe technology which allows for ultra-high power density packaging. The ultra-high thermal conductivity of the heat pipe (effectively 1000x that of copper) allows for over-driving the LEDs by a factor of 4x, while maintaining junction temperatures well within rated limits...."




Take a look over at this old thread on heatpipes and peltiers and such:
https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/101918&highlight=heatpipe


Some old cooling, thermal transfer, and heatpipe notes:
http://candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=78927


----------



## Someone

Someone said:


> Btw, couldn't Mag-lite have made the bulb holder from metal instead of plastic to increase heat conductivity?



Anybody, do you think the heat problem would be solved by making the bulb holder of metal instead of plastic?


If it would, I wonder why Mag-lite didn't do that.


----------



## Empath

They could have made the C and D cell lights in a manner that permits the heat to transfer to the body, but they didn't build them for LED. Consequently, when they built a conversion module, they made the module with the lack of heat dissipation in mind through thermal/power regulation.

It may be that a future production of the lights might be redesigned with heat dissipation in mind, but at the time the present run was designed it wasn't a needed consideration.


----------



## Hondo

Welcome to CPF, Someone!


Actually, the Mag bulb holder is metal. But it is not a big enough chunk of metal to dissapate heat at a rate to allow continuous max. output of the module.

I personally don't find using power reduction through thermal sensing and regulation to be such a problem. In fact, the end result is a rather usefull feature from my point of view. If I need to "spot" something at long range, I want full power, and when I hit the button, that is what I get. If I am going to run my light continuously for more than 5-10 minutes, I am probably either working on a relatively close task or walking, and in either case this light is still overkill even after thermal regulation has stabilized. But with thermal regulation active, the power consumption is approximately half what it starts at, and hence the continuous run time doubled over what it would be if the unit were cooled to where it always put out full brightness.

Instantaneous/short term max. brightness, long haul run time champ, sounds like a good combo to me, really. OK, heat may not be the best factor to use for this sort of flexibility if you are starting a fresh design, but it works and it fits in the millions of existing Mags.

Hondo


----------



## bimemrboy318

Is there any noticeable light output advantage to getting the 2 cell vs the 3 cell? I'm thinking about putting the 3 cell LED into a Mag 2C modified to fit 3 C alkalines. This way, I get the smaller form factor with a bit more light output. If there is not light output advantage then I'll assume it would be a run time advantage correct?

Can teh Mag 2C be modded to fit 3 C alkalines by removing the sprign and de-anodizing the tail cap?


----------



## mtnwalker

The survey showed the output greatest for the 3, then the 4, then the 2. The 3 and 4 were pretty close though. My 4D focuses tighter than my 3D, and my 4D has a different design in the bulb holder area that I like better than the 3D version (my 4D has a metal base for that bulb holder/3D has a plastic base). Every time I open packs of D batteries they are in multiples of 2, so the 3D kind of wastes a battery so-to-speak. The 4D has the same brightness as my 3D as far as my eyes can tell, better throw, and according to the comparison a much longer/better regulated runtime due to that 1 extra battery. The 2D doesn't even rank in my opinion (for my uses anyway, respectfully- not speaking for anyone else...)
Personally I vote for the 4D myself, (if I am using a full size light), If I want a light for a close up type activity then I don't need that size light anyway- 2AA size lights (MM with NiteIze works fine for me in that situation.


----------



## Someone

Hondo said:


> Welcome to CPF, Someone!
> 
> 
> Actually, the Mag bulb holder is metal. But it is not a big enough chunk of metal to dissapate heat at a rate to allow continuous max. output of the module.
> 
> I personally don't find using power reduction through thermal sensing and regulation to be such a problem. In fact, the end result is a rather usefull feature from my point of view. If I need to "spot" something at long range, I want full power, and when I hit the button, that is what I get. If I am going to run my light continuously for more than 5-10 minutes, I am probably either working on a relatively close task or walking, and in either case this light is still overkill even after thermal regulation has stabilized. But with thermal regulation active, the power consumption is approximately half what it starts at, and hence the continuous run time doubled over what it would be if the unit were cooled to where it always put out full brightness.
> 
> Instantaneous/short term max. brightness, long haul run time champ, sounds like a good combo to me, really. OK, heat may not be the best factor to use for this sort of flexibility if you are starting a fresh design, but it works and it fits in the millions of existing Mags.
> 
> Hondo



Im not sure if I used correct term, but the part that connects the part where you screw the bulb (which is metal) to the main aluminium body is plastic at least in my Mag-lite.

But I guess it is true that the dimmening isn't really that big of a problem as you usually need high output for only brief periods..


Yeah, and thanks for welcome.


----------



## PlayboyJoeShmoe

In my opinion (worth exactly what it costs!) the 2 cell C/D are a no brainer IF you aren't doing a Hotwire in them. 

The M*GLED is a FANTASTIC upgrade over a 2 cell ALK, or AALith incandescent bulb of ANY type!

The best 4 cell solution that I know of is 4C into a 3D. The light isn't TOO big, but of course C cells won't run as long as D cells.

Everything is a compromise of SOME sort!!!


----------



## bestcounsel

Ok guys, 

I went out and bought a Mag3D LED upgrade. I love it. It is exactly what i have been looking for. 

Here is the deal...I work EP and work at night at a lot of estates. I always carry a SF6P on by belt but was looking for a "beater" light that had killer run time and is reliable. Well, the Mag3D LED has brought new life to my old trusty mag3D and is going to save me a lot of money. 

The other night, i was in the basement of an estate and my SF went dead. The Batteries went dead. I strobed my way out, but it was that, that had me thinking about getting a light that had killer run time and was cheap to feed for basic navigation. I wanted a light that ran on conventional easy to find batteries and got it with my mag upgrade.

I will always carry a SF on me, in fact, i am planning on buying another SF real soon. The mag will fill in for basic navigation, as a beater light and a make shift batton if needed.

At the estate i am at right now, not all rooms and parts of the home do not have electricity. We run 12 hour shifts at night and an affordable light comes in handy.


----------



## ringzero

bestcounsel said:


> I went out and bought a Mag3D LED upgrade. I love it. It is exactly what i have been looking for. Here is the deal...I work EP and work at night at a lot of estates.



Hey bestcounsel, glad you like the MagLED upgrade.

BTW, what is EP?


----------



## bestcounsel

EP = Executive Protection, public figure protection


----------



## butcher_block

ok so i have a 4 cell drop in and love it 
heres the deal i need something for my 6 c cell

was thinking about a 5w i have a lathe and mill so i should be able to make it if i just found out what would work
must have is the spot-flood abilaty
and it doesnt need to be some kind of over the top light
i did swap the 4 cell led into the 6c and it didnt blow/burn/melt but i didnt trust it and i didnt need the extra batt life
so can i get a little help out there or redirect me if im on the wrong thread
thanks
butch
​


----------



## NewBie

Interesting.

Dat2zip has some modules at the Sandwich Shoppe that might fit your needs.


----------



## Handlobraesing

Empath said:


> Your guessing is based on Handlobraesing's guessing, and his less than factual data, which is says is "_*probably*_ in the region of boiling point of water". As he say's, "no data is given past 2,000 hours", yet he's giving 5000 hours as the life. His link offers nothing to substantiate his "guess". As for his "guess" of "boiling point" operating temperatures, there's no telling where he came up with that.
> 
> You can get the operating temperature from the first posting in this thread. It's _72.7 degrees C (162.9 F)_. That's a far cry from boiling point of _100 degrees C (212 F)_.



Newbie's measurements are of module temperature. I said *JUNCTION* temperature. 

How did I get "about the boiling point of water" ? Look on Page 3 of the Lumileds PDF I linked and look at the fine prints below the two graphs. Tj-Tc ~ 20C, therefore, Tc+20 ~ Tj. 72.7 + 20 = 92.7C. Perhaps its a far outcry from boiling point of water in your perspective.


----------



## PlayboyJoeShmoe

I still think that all things considered, a M*gled module is the best EASY thing you can do to a 2, 3 or 4 cell M*g.

Yes, there MIGHT be up to a 50% drop. It MIGHT get HOT....

But I LIKE 'Em!!!!


----------



## bestcounsel

I agree with you PlayboyJoeShmoe....from your pm to me about the led drop in, i bought one and have liked it a lot. Im still using it with used batts and it is working like a charm. 

I highly recommend it. 

It is not the answer to everything like people like to hear, but it breathes new life into a mag that one already has.


----------



## NewBie

Handlobraesing said:


> Newbie's measurements are of module temperature. I said *JUNCTION* temperature.
> 
> How did I get "about the boiling point of water" ? Look on Page 3 of the Lumileds PDF I linked and look at the fine prints below the two graphs. Tj-Tc ~ 20C, therefore, Tc+20 ~ Tj. 72.7 + 20 = 92.7C. Perhaps its a far outcry from boiling point of water in your perspective.




Actually, if you look a bit closer in the pictures (and I may have mentioned it) but I used fine wire K-type thermocouples, and drilled into the slug, for measuring the temperature.

So, I wasn't measuring the module, but the LED's own slug.

If the input power was 1W, and the slug at 72.7C, the die would be near 85.7 C (13 C/W).

The input power starts out much higher, and the module backs off as it heats up.

Take a gander back at the graphs, pictures, and such.


----------



## frasera

*Re: MagLite 2C LED drop-in Technical Review*

op!:rock:


----------



## PlayboyJoeShmoe

*Re: MagLite 2C LED drop-in Technical Review*



Are we STILL fighting over this??? 

For a 2 Cell C or D, there is no easier or cheaper thing than a M*gled. PERIOD! :touche:

For a 3 C or D, I still believe that rather than spending a lot on a custom gadget, the M*gled is good stuff! :goodjob:

For a 4 C or D, well the 4D is just too big. Put 4C in a 3D! 

Yes, you can do better with a custom made heatsink and some fancy driver and a LUXIII or Cree. But for Joe Anyman or a Flashaholic that can't quite DO a bunch of custom stuff, M*gleds :rock:


----------



## Toohotruk

Hi all,

First off, I'm pretty much just an average guy (clueless to the intricacies of candle power) that has used Mag products for decades and have been fairly happy with them. For all this time, I had the impression that MAG made the best flashlights PERIOD. I grew up during the era of pretty cheaply made chrome and plastic flashlights, powered by "Heavy Duty" batteries made before the time of alkalines, most of which wouldn't do much more than help you find your way out of a paper sack! So when I discovered MAGs, there was no turning back!

A few months ago, I bought the Nite Ize MM upgrade and was pretty happy with it, especially for the price! Then Mag released their new LED drop-ins, I was thrilled that they _finally _threw their hat into the LED ring, but I didn't want to pay the money for the upgrade without some research. I discovered Flashlightreviews.com and CPF and it was a complete shock to find out that my beloved MAGs (incans at least) were not only considered to be mediocre, but that a lot of people considered them to be pieces of crap!  

This forum (as well as Doug's site) was a real eye-opener to say the least! I had never heard of Surefire, Streamlight, Inova, Fenix, Pelican, etc. Since discovering these informative sites, I have spent many, many hours reading the reviews on FlashlightReviews.com as well as various threads on CPF and I would LOVE to be able to lay out the cash required to purchase some of these high-end beauties, but (at least for now) that is simply not an option. :sigh: 

My brother gave me a 2AA MM LED for Xmas and I couldn't believe how superior it was to my many incan MMs and my Nite Ize modded MM, not to mention my 3Ds! So of course, I had to wonder even more about the new drop-ins.

Based on Doug's review of the MAGLEDs, I bought a 3D upgrade on sale at Home Depot for $15.00 and was amazed at the difference in output! I even went back for another one for one of my other 3D MAGs and I was very happy...until I started reading this thread. 

Due to limited time, it has taken me several weeks (off and on) to read all of the posts in this thread. When I started reading, I was pretty bummed to find out just how much of a drop in output these units suffer due to heat regulation. At this point, I haven't had the need to keep any of my lights on (at least the "D" lights) for more than a couple of minutes at a time, so they never have reached the "drop point". 

Then tonight, I sat down and finished reading all the posts on this thread (man, there is a lot of debate on both sides of this issue!) and I was happy to see that some of you more knowledgeable "Flashaholics" had somewhat changed your opinion of the MAG drop-ins! 

One thing I found interesting, is the fact that at least some of the 4Ds (including mine) have metal base plates under the bulb pedistals rather than plastic. Does anyone here think that it may be feasable (or even worth it) to swap out the plastic switchgear of the 3D for the metal one of the 4D? I would think that it would _have _to make at least a _little _difference as far as the heatsink factor goes, right? I just think that the 3D is a little more managable size than the 4D, plus Doug stated in his review that the "Best bang for the buck" would be the 3D drop-in. 

I'm actually considering buying a Diamond K2, but I'm not too clear on whether it would be any better than the MAGLED. Any opinions on this comparison?

Like I said before, I am pretty clueless about the subject of flashlight performance, compaired to most of you on here. I have to admit that a lot of what is said on here as far as the technical aspects go, are above my head, but I get the gist of it at least _most _of the time. :lolsign: 
I could really see myself getting into this hobby...I have always loved flashlights.

Anyway, sorry for the long boring post, but I finally decided to voice my opinion on this thread and I just wanted you to get an idea of where I'm coming from and what is running around in my feeble little mind.:thinking: 

BTW, for the record, I'm pretty happy with the MAGLED upgrade...I'm sure they will serve me well, especially when compaired with the original Kryptons! 

Thank you for your time!


----------



## WildChild

Personally, I don't think they are crap! They have their drawbacks (dimming within 15 minutes, life may be diminished because of heat, etc.) but they are really cheap! MagLite never tried to push products with great performance, they wanted to make it decent and cheap and I think they succeed in that! I have a MAG-LED 2D as well as many other LED lights (Modded Mag, a few Fenix, Arc AAA-P) and I still like this MAG-LED. In fact, I consider the dimming to be an advantage, if you need a light that will last for a very long time on 1 set of batteries. And if it dies? After how much time... A few years? Just buy another drop-in to replace the dead one! 



Toohotruk said:


> Hi all,
> 
> First off, I'm pretty much just an average guy (clueless to the intricacies of candle power) that has used Mag products for decades and have been fairly happy with them. For all this time, I had the impression that MAG made the best flashlights PERIOD. I grew up during the era of pretty cheaply made chrome and plastic flashlights, powered by "Heavy Duty" batteries made before the time of alkalines, most of which wouldn't do much more than help you find your way out of a paper sack! So when I discovered MAGs, there was no turning back!
> 
> A few months ago, I bought the Nite Ize MM upgrade and was pretty happy with it, especially for the price! Then Mag released their new LED drop-ins, I was thrilled that they _finally _threw their hat into the LED ring, but I didn't want to pay the money for the upgrade without some research. I discovered Flashlightreviews.com and CPF and it was a complete shock to find out that my beloved MAGs (incans at least) were not only considered to be mediocre, but that a lot of people considered them to be pieces of crap!
> 
> This forum (as well as Doug's site) was a real eye-opener to say the least! I had never heard of Surefire, Streamlight, Inova, Fenix, Pelican, etc. Since discovering these informative sites, I have spent many, many hours reading the reviews on FlashlightReviews.com as well as various threads on CPF and I would LOVE to be able to lay out the cash required to purchase some of these high-end beauties, but (at least for now) that is simply not an option. :sigh:
> 
> My brother gave me a 2AA MM LED for Xmas and I couldn't believe how superior it was to my many incan MMs and my Nite Ize modded MM, not to mention my 3Ds! So of course, I had to wonder even more about the new drop-ins.
> 
> Based on Doug's review of the MAGLEDs, I bought a 3D upgrade on sale at Home Depot for $15.00 and was amazed at the difference in output! I even went back for another one for one of my other 3D MAGs and I was very happy...until I started reading this thread.
> 
> Due to limited time, it has taken me several weeks (off and on) to read all of the posts in this thread. When I started reading, I was pretty bummed to find out just how much of a drop in output these units suffer due to heat regulation. At this point, I haven't had the need to keep any of my lights on (at least the "D" lights) for more than a couple of minutes at a time, so they never have reached the "drop point".
> 
> Then tonight, I sat down and finished reading all the posts on this thread (man, there is a lot of debate on both sides of this issue!) and I was happy to see that some of you more knowledgeable "Flashaholics" had somewhat changed your opinion of the MAG drop-ins!
> 
> One thing I found interesting, is the fact that at least some of the 4Ds (including mine) have metal base plates under the bulb pedistals rather than plastic. Does anyone here think that it may be feasable (or even worth it) to swap out the plastic switchgear of the 3D for the metal one of the 4D? I would think that it would _have _to make at least a _little _difference as far as the heatsink factor goes, right? I just think that the 3D is a little more managable size than the 4D, plus Doug stated in his review that the "Best bang for the buck" would be the 3D drop-in.
> 
> I'm actually considering buying a Diamond K2, but I'm not too clear on whether it would be any better than the MAGLED. Any opinions on this comparison?
> 
> Like I said before, I am pretty clueless about the subject of flashlight performance, compaired to most of you on here. I have to admit that a lot of what is said on here as far as the technical aspects go, are above my head, but I get the gist of it at least _most _of the time. :lolsign:
> I could really see myself getting into this hobby...I have always loved flashlights.
> 
> Anyway, sorry for the long boring post, but I finally decided to voice my opinion on this thread and I just wanted you to get an idea of where I'm coming from and what is running around in my feeble little mind.:thinking:
> 
> BTW, for the record, I'm pretty happy with the MAGLED upgrade...I'm sure they will serve me well, especially when compaired with the original Kryptons!
> 
> Thank you for your time!


----------



## Hondo

First, WELCOME TO CPF!


Then, my two bits of info on these. First, what WildChild said, for long runs I don't need bleeding edge brightness, I need runtime, and the thermal regulation will about double that for a long run over a super-cooled, full throttle all the time run - it is also keeping the LED from being damaged by excessive heat. Second, what is seldom mentioned in Mag LED module discussions, is that ALL of the comparable output units do the same thing! Look at Doug's review of the Diamond modules on FLR (http://www.flashlightreviews.com/reviews/diamond_magbulbs3w.htm), same initial drop. So enjoy big, white LED light in a focussable, familliar light with MONSTER run time, I do!

Hondo


----------



## Toohotruk

Hondo said:


> First, WELCOME TO CPF!
> 
> 
> Then, my two bits of info on these. First, what WildChild said, for long runs I don't need bleeding edge brightness, I need runtime, and the thermal regulation will about double that for a long run over a super-cooled, full throttle all the time run - it is also keeping the LED from being damaged by excessive heat. Second, what is seldom mentioned in Mag LED module discussions, is that ALL of the comparable output units do the same thing! Look at Doug's review of the Diamond modules on FLR (http://www.flashlightreviews.com/reviews/diamond_magbulbs3w.htm), same initial drop. So enjoy big, white LED light in a focussable, familliar light with MONSTER run time, I do!
> 
> Hondo


 
Thanks!

I must have missed his review on the K2...I'm still seriously thinking about getting one.:thinking: I wonder if one would survive in a 4D?

Anyway, thanks again for your response!


----------



## LittleBrownStain

A Note to CPF member *Mr_Light *from Silver Spring, Maryland :

THANK YOU so much for those wonderful pics (a few miles back in this thread). 

They brought back childhood memories from deep back in my subconscious I hadn't even realized I still had. I can remember using, or perhaps even owning one or more of these ribbed, silver beauties with the metallic slide switches.

And to think you have brought each of them into the 21st century with an LED upgrade! Not even Eveready could have imagined it! (I have the 2D MagLED, and yes, contrary to popular belief, it is working fine for me using rechargeable NiMH's).

I have printed out each pic on 8-1/2 x 11 paper.

The flashlights are beautiful. J-u-s-t .. P-l-a-i-n .. B-e-a-u-t-i-f-u-l.

P. S. : Does one go "all screwy" after joining CPF? I used to be a pretty "normbal" guy before I got here! :laughing:

Many thnx. -- Mike --


----------



## PlayboyJoeShmoe

I don't know about my brethren here at CPF, but I was goofy WAY before signing up here!

We had a 4 cell M*gled on 4C left on for at least two days. It still put a bit of a spot on walls with plenty of window/outside light on them and the batteries were JUST above 1V each.

Used a bit more carefully a week should be easy!


----------



## LittleBrownStain

PlayboyJoeShmoe said:


> I don't know about my brethren here at CPF, but I was goofy WAY before signing up here!



Not to worry then, Joe, methinks you are in very good company. 

For all I know, it *may* be a preferred requirement for joining up! <gg>


----------



## LittleBrownStain

Despite Mag's outdated circuitry and woeful lack of physical heatsinking in their drop-in-module+host-body combo, the modules themselves might be a credible alternative for many other *non*-mag products - even cheaper mainstream ones.

Since the modules don't "require" external heatsinking, they could be used in other (mostly) plastic lights such as camping lanterns, which would also be a good idea to have around for the occasional power outage.

They cost less than, say the EverLED module, even at local retail prices, and although a bit more demanding on the batteries, does not a 3W mag drop in provide greater light output than a 1.2W EverLED? - Just a thought.


----------



## cslinger

> Since the modules don't "require" external heatsinking, they could be used in other (mostly) plastic lights such as camping lanterns, which would also be a good idea to have around for the occasional power outage.



In theory, yes. In reality no. The stupid things are too big to fit in anything except a MAGLITE. Son's a Bit.........I digress. 

Other then the fact they only technically work in MAGLITEs I love em. I have 6 D sized MAGLEDs all over the house. Considering each one will run a minium of 30-32ish hours I can pretty much light up every room for a very extended time or use them one or two at a time for massive length of time. They are a great tool. Not sexy, but a great tool.


----------



## Mr_Light

Please see my earlier post on how to install the Magled in most PR based lights. https://www.candlepowerforums.com/posts/1614671&postcount=291


----------



## PlayboyJoeShmoe

In lights where the battery + nipple can touch the end of the bulb (example the GOOD old 99 cent lights that Walmart had) it just takes a wee bit of opening up where the upper part of the M*gled needs to go.

In other cases the size of the case makes it tough if not impossible...

I was just checking as I thought I had one of those lights set up like that. But I was wrong. I have SMJLEDs in a couple, an Everled in one, a Craftsman 3AAA 1W "bulb" in one and a couple hotrodded with two or three 123 and overdriven Kryptons.

But I USE my M*gled 2C more than most anything else in my arsenal besides my Fenix P1 EDC!


----------



## LittleBrownStain

cslinger said:


> In theory, yes. In reality no. The stupid things are too big to fit in anything except a MAGLITE. Son's a Bit.........I digress.
> 
> Other then the fact they only technically work in MAGLITEs I love em. I have 6 D sized MAGLEDs all over the house. Considering each one will run a minium of 30-32ish hours I can pretty much light up every room for a very extended time or use them one or two at a time for massive length of time. They are a great tool. Not sexy, but a great tool.



I'm probably going to try anyway. A store - just 15 mins away, carries the modules.

If you look at the mag blister pack info, you see the mag module simply being swapped-in for the incan. (Two arrows - one IN and one OUT). That _should _mean they're the standard PR-size, right?


----------



## LittleBrownStain

Mr_Light said:


> Please see my earlier post on how to install the Magled in most PR based lights. https://www.candlepowerforums.com/posts/1614671&postcount=291



I will indeed, Mr_Light. (Thanks).


----------



## jkcashin

Marlite said:


> I called on industrial accounts when I sold shipping supplies and earned a customer with tape products that he loved and he lavished me with samples explaining his pot scrubbers "Chore Girl" was a knitted ball, of fine-square cut copper wire, softer, than pot material and wouldn't scratch pots. "Brillo Pads" are similar. _You got it._ The wire mass of hundreds of feet of copper wire pressed into the Mag around and under the bulb with maybe a type of 1-2" thin washer with a hole the size of the threaded shaft to keep the knitted sweater under control pressed against the wall of the Mag may be a very cheap mod maybe not an elegant mode but - Will this work?


I'm surprised no-one has commented on this. My 4D has a metal bulb tower, and lots of room, so I think I will give this a try.

Jamie


----------



## jkcashin

jkcashin said:


> I'm surprised no-one has commented on this. My 4D has a metal bulb tower, and lots of room, so I think I will give this a try.
> 
> Jamie



Beuler? Beuler?

Jamie


----------



## h2xblive

Anyone know why these MagLite's shouldn't be run with nicads or nimhs?


----------



## blan

*Re: MagLite 2C LED drop-in Technical Review*

Quick Question. In a 3D mag. Do 4C's provide more lifetime or do 3D's?


----------



## JamisonM

*Re: MagLite 2C LED drop-in Technical Review*



blan said:


> Quick Question. In a 3D mag. Do 4C's provide more lifetime or do 3D's?


I doubt it. Starting mAh for a energizer D cell alkaline is around 20,000. For the same brand, but a C cell alkaine, the starting mAh is around 8,000.


----------



## Arg

This is a great thread!
I have a short question, does anybody know what are the differences in runtime and output between using the led module in 3D and 3C lights?
Thanks


----------



## Hondo

Arg said:


> This is a great thread!
> I have a short question, does anybody know what are the differences in runtime and output between using the led module in 3D and 3C lights?
> Thanks


 
That would just be the difference in battery capacities, which I think Energizer posts on their site. But off the top of my head, it is pretty close to a 2:1 ratio. So if a 3D does around 24 hours to 50% (I think it is usually a bit better than that) a 3C would be in the neighborhood of 12 hours. D's are a better value, but C lights just feel so nice in the hand!

Just looked back at JamisonM's post, his numbers sound right, so a little less than half with C's.

Hondo


----------



## Arg

Thanks for you reply, Hondo.
So, there's only difference in runtime, not in light output?
Sorry for the stupid questions, but I was given a 3 element led module and need to decide wheter to buy a 3D or C light, and in my country once you buy something you can only return it if it doesn's work (and that if you are very lucky!).
Regards


----------



## Hondo

Sorry Arg, I did not reply to the output portion of your question. Yes, the outputs would be essentially identical between the C and D size lights, just the runtime advantage of the D's. Around here, stores charge the same for C's and D's, so using C cells is not economical. But like I said, the C size Mag feels nice in the hand, and is less weight to carry around. With the much longer runtimes of the LED modules, using C cells is not so painfull as it was with the incandescents.

Hondo


----------



## Arg

Thanks Hondo!


----------



## diamondback

*Re: MagLite 2C LED drop-in Techinical Review*



Empath said:


> A good mod project could be the development of a heat sink. It should be a pretty simple task to make a "washer" type insert that fits down over the threaded retaining ring and rests snuggly against the inside of the body. Of course it would take different sizes for the C cell lights and D cell. That way it wouldn't have to back the power down as often.
> 
> Good report, Newbie. Thanks.



anyone tried this?


----------



## wildta

*Re: MagLite 2C LED drop-in Techinical Review*

I have an old 3D maglite that I would like to upgrade to LED with a drop-in LED. Where would you recommend I purchase a drop-in bulb that is both cheap and has a decent throw/brightness? Please let me know. Thansk in advance!


----------



## PlayboyJoeShmoe

*Re: MagLite 2C LED drop-in Techinical Review*

Oh yeah... I couldn't get on the other night to post this.

I used a 4D and a 3D M*gled in candle mode to install a new ceiling fan the other night. They performed well, but the collar on the 4D was WARM after a couple hours!

Maybe some sort of thermal stuff and a big washer. You'd probably have to change it to move-the-head focus as the cam would likely be in the way.


----------



## Lit Up

*Re: MagLite 2C LED drop-in Techinical Review*



wildta said:


> I have an old 3D maglite that I would like to upgrade to LED with a drop-in LED. Where would you recommend I purchase a drop-in bulb that is both cheap and has a decent throw/brightness? Please let me know. Thansk in advance!



Just get one of the LED drop-ins from Maglite available at Wal-Mart. Decent brightness, throw and real good runtime on 3 D cells. Not the latest and greatest but it will KILL the incandescent version.
Make sure you get the 3 cell version LED upgrade as they have them for 2,3 and 4 cell lights.

The packaging will look like this:






Although this picture doesn't designate which number of cells this LED uses, the packages at the store will.


----------



## PlayboyJoeShmoe

*Re: MagLite 2C LED drop-in Techinical Review*

Yep. I'm SURE a heat sink option can be found. You WILL have to do away with the cam and use twist head focus.

The correct item I think would fit relatively tight around the collar and be large enough to reach the body.

I don't have machining or thermal goop, so it will have to be up to someone else to implement it!


----------



## Hallis

I'm resurecting this thread back from the dead. This is all VERY good info. I'd bought a 4-Cell version to run in a 1D 6x123 light basically running 2s/3p for 6v on primary cells for some good runtime. It seems like the setup is ideal for a nice emergency light with good runtime on it which was my goal. And I was also feeling a bit lazy and didnt want to mod anything lol. 

But very very good info here especially concerning runtime. Looks like i made a good choice after all.

Shane


----------



## NA8

Newbie's review is also available without all the extra members' input at the website version of the review: 

http://www.molalla.net/~leeper/magrev.htm


----------



## PlayboyJoeShmoe

The Magleds are notting bleeding edge, cutting edge or even chopping edge stuff.

But they work, and on the same number and type of batteries they are WAY better than incand. 

Overdrive an incand hard enough and it's nice and white. Magled will SMOKE it for runtime.


----------



## StarHalo

Now that this thread has a couple of years on it, it might be worth it to take a moment to note the modern day new-and-improved alternatives;

The TerraLUX Ministar5 P4 comes to mind, a regulated 150 lumens for 20 hours, for $25..

Most people reading this thread are looking for a cheap and easy instant-drop in that requires no modifications or battery changes, just something to quickly pop into an emergency back-up or non-flashaholic friend/relative's Mag, so in that vein, any other suggestions?


----------



## metlarules

I think thats about the top of the heap for inexpensive drop ins. I would love for Malkoff to come up with a LL drop in for the maglite. It would run for weeks off of d cells and not drop in output like the inexpensive ones due to superior heatsinking. 80 lumens for a week runtime sounds good to me.:twothumbs


----------



## richardcpf

I'm impressed... 7 days of light with the Maglite 3D!!

Only costs $26 at amazon + free shipping. and D cells are so cheap!

Ths only con I see is the super quick dropdown of output. *Why the 3D version has more output than the 4D? different drivers?*


----------



## sabre7

I have tried the Magled and Terralux for my 4D Mag. The Terralux appears 

almost twice as bright, and has a whiter tint. The Magled is around 80lm, the 

Terralux is 140-150lm. I did not notice any dropoff in brightness after 

any length of time from the Magled. I also understand that the NiteIze led 

is cheapest of all, also available at Walmart, and although not as bright, 

has much longer runtimes, around 110 hours. The numbers I am quoting 

may not be exact, but are very close.


----------



## iq2k

Well the one way i wouldn't personally try to find out would be maglite themselves cause i find they don't bother after youv'e bought the product.
Asking them questions & getting no reply led me to find this site.


----------



## bluedog225

Quick question-what will happen if I place a 2-3 D cell LED drop-in into a 4D maglite? I'm curious enough to try, ignorant enough not to know, too lazy (tired) to research. I'd hate to waste the drop in if it's just going to go "pop."

Thanks

Tom


----------



## PlayboyJoeShmoe

I'd be inclined to think that since they come in 2, 3 and 4 cell models that just maybe one WILL  on an extra cell.

I am not going to destroy one in testing to find out.


----------



## bluedog225

Ok. Just tried it. No  but very dim. Don't think it is damaged but will check later.

Tom


----------



## PlayboyJoeShmoe

I wish that a Magled would flood decently. That's the only thing really wrong with 'em.


----------



## AA6TZ

*Hi NewBie* -- First off, I want to commend you for a superbly written post. You sure pulled out all the stops (i.e., left no stone unturned) which made for a great read. Very much appreciated.

I purchased a couple of MAG-LED 3-Watt LED Upgrade Modules for my pair of (4 D-cell) Maglites about a year ago - and they have continued to work flawlessly ever since. Okay, so the initial light output drop occurred somewhere around the 20-hour mark, but the throw and spill haven't changed enough to cause me to worry *too* much ("good enough for Government work.") 

I give 'em 2 thumbs up!

-Clive


----------



## hank

cross-reference:
complete list of all LED PR flange drop-in bulbs LED Flashlights.

www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=178595


----------



## Stress_Test

StarHalo said:


> Most people reading this thread are looking for a cheap and easy instant-drop in that requires no modifications or battery changes, just something to quickly pop into an emergency back-up or non-flashaholic friend/relative's Mag, so in that vein, any other suggestions?




Yes, that's me you're talking about when you said "most people.."! 

I want to stick with something that just drops in as easy as changing a bulb, and not have to do any of my own soldering/modding, because it usually ends up a mess when I do my own "projects"! 


That said, I can't believe there aren't more drop in options with crees or P7s and whatnot. 4-Sevens sells the heat sink and P7 led, but it looks like it still involves quite a bit of custom work.


----------



## PlayboyJoeShmoe

I like 'em enough that I got another 2D and another 3D last night at Lowes.

Made the 2D into 3C with the "bulb" from the 3D light and put the 3D light away for future use.

Some Scotch Satin tape makes a lovely diffuser on the lens and protects it as well.


----------



## Tiff

Hi, I am wondering how well these Magled drop ins would work on my plastic flashlight? It's a heavy duty electricians light, but has an incan bulb and the current bulb has a plastic push piece to hold the bulb in place. It's a pretty rugged light but I don't want it to melt.
If the MagLed won't work what will?
Thanks
Tiff


----------



## Hondo

It could probably be made to work, but the first big hurdle is that the Mag LED unit is bigger in diameter than a standard PR bulb, so it won't fit in the unmodified socket of most other lights. Some folks have bored the socket out to accept it, you would have to determine if your light can handle that. The thermal management circuit in the Mag unit SHOULD prevent melting the plastic socket, so once it's in, it will probably work OK.


----------



## asdalton

Another thing is that the LED will likely not be at the optimum focal point for the reflector in any fixed-focus light. The Mag drop-ins were intended to be used with Mag flashlights, which allow you to dial in the correct focus regardless of the emitter height.


----------



## PlayboyJoeShmoe

I used one sparingly in a 2AA plastic light with a MOP reflector and it was focused ok...

I'm not saying a plastic light is the very best of ideas mind you.


----------



## Tiff

Hondo said:


> It could probably be made to work, but the first big hurdle is that the Mag LED unit is bigger in diameter than a standard PR bulb, so it won't fit in the unmodified socket of most other lights. Some folks have bored the socket out to accept it, you would have to determine if your light can handle that. The thermal management circuit in the Mag unit SHOULD prevent melting the plastic socket, so once it's in, it will probably work OK.


 
 Yep, that's what I did! I modified the opening which was aluminum and got it so it fit. I used tinfoil as a cheap heatsink and wedged it in to keep it in place but the overall gain was not enough to spend the $15 for it so it goes back and I'll run a Nite-Ize in one and a Dorcy in another and find something for my 6 volt. The Dorcy sounds good 45 lumens and the Nite-Ize should give long runtimes. Plus they are cheap enough that I won't feel ripped off if they don't work out too well. I want one as a flood and lower power and maybe a brighter one to provide some extra throw. Since I already own these lights and like using them.
Heat might be an issue with 3 watts as the front is plastic and not glass. 
Be nice if there was a melting smilie.


----------



## Tiff

PlayboyJoeShmoe said:


> I used one sparingly in a 2AA plastic light with a MOP reflector and it was focused ok...
> 
> I'm not saying a plastic light is the very best of ideas mind you.


 
Yes, I know, but these lights have served me well over so many years, at least 10 and I took them overseas when I lived there for 5 years and they just keep working. You can really beat on them and it's a non-issue to these lights. The bulbs I am buying cost more than the light did new. 
The fixed focus is an issue but the reflectors are set to throw, they are not orange peel or smooth but are like a disco ball and are long rather than square. Really give a good throw even with an Incan.
Tiff


----------



## Lynx_Arc

I bought 2 2cell magled dropins from a Target clearance sale long ago for about $7 each. I have a few energizer kids plastic 2AA lights with clicky switches.. forward clicky at that too that I only had to remove a bulb holding spring and drill out the hole in the reflector some and it has a nice very tight beam. I put one in an old 2D rayovac roughneck light that focuses by reaming the bulb assembly out in a drill press and it works nice too. I wish they made more nice 2D plastic LED lights instead of the 5mm ones... why waste a huge D cell on 5mm LEDs in flashlights when they are begging to drive luxeons and crees.


----------



## Tiff

Lynx_Arc said:


> I wish they made more nice 2D plastic LED lights instead of the 5mm ones... why waste a huge D cell on 5mm LEDs in flashlights when they are begging to drive luxeons and crees.


 
I agree, it makes more sense if you carry the weight, you might as well have as much light as you want. Plastic is lighter. I'd take pics of mine but they aren't exciting lights but I really do like them. Also they are non-conductive!


----------



## Lynx_Arc

I have one I got that has a dimmer green emitter I need to replace I wonder if these will run better with SSC P4 emitters in them... less heat.


----------



## Stereodude

Lynx_Arc said:


> I have one I got that has a dimmer green emitter I need to replace I wonder if these will run better with SSC P4 emitters in them... less heat.


Maybe a little cooler, but they're two times as bright. 

2D Cell:






turns into







4D Cell:





turns into







See more examples of MagLED replacement and how they compare to other lights in my big bounce test review.


----------



## Lynx_Arc

yeah looks a lot brighter... I may have to order or trade for some SSC p4s. how much trouble is it to upgrade the LED in these modules?


----------



## Stereodude

Lynx_Arc said:


> yeah looks a lot brighter... I may have to order or trade for some SSC p4s. how much trouble is it to upgrade the LED in these modules?


See this thread. It's not too hard, but requires some craftsmanship to fabricate new leads for the SSC. I cut the leads off the Luxeon III and used them over again instead of the making new ones by flattening copper like Cydonia did.


----------



## CuNim

Can someone tell me if the 3 cell drop-in will work OK with a 2D?

I'm modding the 3D it's in, so want to buy an incan 2D and stick an LED in that to save me a few pounds.


----------



## JamisonM

CuNim said:


> Can someone tell me if the 3 cell drop-in will work OK with a 2D?
> 
> I'm modding the 3D it's in, so want to buy an incan 2D and stick an LED in that to save me a few pounds.


It should work, but it will be only as bright as a 3D maglite with its batteries at 3v total.


----------



## CuNim

JamisonM said:


> It should work, but it will be only as bright as a 3D maglite with its batteries at 3v total.


 
Thanks for that - all I needed to know. Doesn't need to be super bright, it's the runtime I'm after more than anything.


----------



## JamisonM

CuNim said:


> Thanks for that - all I needed to know. Doesn't need to be super bright, it's the runtime I'm after more than anything.


To tell you the truth, if it isn't much more, I'd get another 3D maglite. Here in the states, the difference in price price of a 2D and 3D maglite are only a couple of dollars. If you buy another 3D, you'll get longer runtime and it will be brighter then a 2D.


----------



## PlayboyJoeShmoe

Do what it takes to do 3C in the 2D.

That will get the brightness back but won't have the run time of D cells.


----------



## DutchyFelix

Hello everybody. I have three small questions. 
.
I recently bought a 1960's Polish/Russian toy 35mm 'film projector' at a 'second hand store'. For light it used a 6V 18W (motorcycle) bulb.
I want to use it to project 'stills' of some movie trailers I have, as a sort of poster on my bedroom wall. Only visible at night, so no 50W halogen for me... It would double as a (ultracool) nightlight as well.  I wanted a lightsource that didn't generate as much heat, to prevent burning my precious film, over a longer period ofcourse. Also the light was too yellow. 
.
I installed a 4D Maglite LED 'bulb' and soldered it to a regulated universal power adapter (set to 6V ofcourse), so I could plug it into the wall socket. I don't use any of the original circuitry since that's AC power and for LED, DC is more convenient.  The principle works brilliantly. Now for 'finetuning'...
.
I noticed that the 'brightness' (newb..sorry) remained the same when I turned down the voltage on the adapter from 6V to 5V and even to 4.5V. It had been running on 6V for about half an hour, so it was quite hot already. When I went down to 3V it did 'dim' a little bit. 
.
OK, ttp now: 
.
Question 1: Would it help keeping the bulb cooler and the intensity higher for longer if I set the adapter to 4.5V, instead of the 6V the bulb is designed for? I mean: since the light doesn't seem to change, why not use a lower voltage?
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2: Would it help putting the 'cooling paste' computer people use around the 'shell' of the bulb? I've never seen the stuff, but i've heard of it's existence.
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3: Hypothetically: what would happen if I switched the adapter up to 9V, or even 12V (It's max)? A regular bulb would shine briter, but wear more quikly, or just melt instantly, I know. But with LED? Would it increase the amount of light produced without melting, or shortening it's life? Or would it die instantly? It would be a shame if I wrecked it, the LED replacement bulbs cost 35 USD+ over on this side of 'the pond'. 
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Oh, one more thing: are there LED-bulbs that produce conciderably more light then this 3W 6V (4D) Maglite LED? I just bought and installed this one, but who knows...maybe in the future. 
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Regards,

Felix.


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## jabe1

Firstly, you need to make sure the LED can dissipate heat well. The "bulb" needs to be in contact with a large piece of metal, unless there is a cooling fan.

Next, keep in mind that batteries experience voltage drop, and the 4 cell drop-in will actually be rated at about 4.5 volts ( not 6v as one might expect).

9v or 12v will burn it up.

You can get more Lumens (brightness) from it by changing the LED to an SSC P4. It is simple to do but not necessarily easy. you can find the info here https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/166999


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## DutchyFelix

Thank you Jabe1 for your quick reply!
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I just saw the result of my labour for the first time last night when it got dark and I think the LED is bright enough as it is now, without extra cooling. 
Besides, I just realized I've already spent 10 times more on modifying my 'projector' then it cost to buy... Maybe I should enjoy it for a little while before I start messing with it again. With anamorphotic lens, LED and adapter, I'm now projecting a $150 'Transformers 2' poster on my wall in Cinemascope view . (Just the transformers logo, not the shot of Ms. Fox' behind on a motorcycle, that wouldn't be vety subtile, would it?)  
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I think I wil attempt the LED replacement in the future though! Seems like a nice way to spend a rainy sunday afternoon.


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## jabe1

you're welcome, and ... :welcome:


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## daf3m

Many comments,useful ideas and lots of information!

At this moment i feel little confused on whether to buy a 3D Mag-LED or a 4D Mag-LED for my 4D Maglite , because i am thinking of using 4 Ni-Mhs and in case of emergency 4 Alkalines .
Range 4.8 - 6 Volts make me think twice for the 3D version but i am afraid that the 4D would be slightly dim with 4.8V and below.

Also not to mention the 30 euro that each bulb costs around here...
I would appreciate any help can get..


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## LEDninja

There are now 2 versions of the MagLED.

The older 3W version as discussed in this thread has been discontinued though may still be in some stores.
Flashlight reviews do not find much difference in output between the 3D and 4D.
http://www.flashlightreviews.com/reviews/maglite_mag-led.htm

There is not much discussion about the newer Rebel version as most CPF members are into smaller lights or super bright lights. Also the new MagLEDs do not use a PR2 bulb holder so are not easily upgradable.

If you are just looking for an upgrade bulb Terralux makes them too. Note 2-3 cell is TLE-6EXB and the 4-6 cell is TLE-6EX. Should be twice as bright as the Mag upgrade bulb.
http://www.terraluxcorp.com/terralux/Products/Portable/Upgrades/TLE6EX/tabid/84/Default.aspx
Terralux has European distribuers. Google (limited by region) is your friend.

Note both the Mag and Terralux upgrade bulbs drop to 1/2 output after about 10-15 minutes.


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## daf3m

TLE-300M-EX would definately be my choise if i was willing to purchase something out of my country  
My question remains as if the 3d circuitry could sustain 6V from 4 alkalines..


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## LEDninja

TLE-300M-EX is for 4-6 D cell Mags only. Won't work with 3D or C Mags.
http://www.batteryjunction.com/tle-300m-ex.html
http://www.led-replacement.com/tle-300m-ex.html

As to the other upgrades you need the 3 cell upgrade (boost circuit) for 3 cell Mags and 4 cell upgrade (buck circuit) for 4 cell Mags. No switching around allowed.


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## daf3m

LEDninja said:


> As to the other upgrades you need the 3 cell upgrade (boost circuit) for 3 cell Mags and 4 cell upgrade (buck circuit) for 4 cell Mags. No switching around allowed.



Thank you for the straight answer


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## JNewell

I'm not sure whether this is responsive to the posts above, but Malkoff Devices has some of their MagLite LED drop-ins back in stock for some models now (5-19-10).


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## PCC

daf3m said:


> ...but i am afraid that the 4D would be slightly dim with 4.8V and below.


I wouldn't worry about it. I'm running the 4D MagLED module in my 3D MagLite and it works just fine. It's as bright as the 2D MagLED module in my 2D MagLite but if you run the 4D module on 2D you get moonlight mode. Keep in mind that I'm running NiMH cells almost exclusively. I have one in a 2D MagLite right now being fed a single 18650 Li-Ion cell and it is plenty bright.


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## daf3m

All-right ..but as i have previously mentioned ,what happens when you can only have 4 alkalines instead of 4 Ni-Mh and a 3d Mag-LED module is installed.I suppose circuitry is pushed to the limits if not destroyed.Taking a further step would you rely on a whole-night use of your Mag?

I guess LEDninja is right


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## PlayboyJoeShmoe

My, but that IS a sticky wicket...

I'm on the road, so I can't experiment. I would try a 4 cell module on three nimh if I were home.

I SHALL be home this weekend if nothing happens to ***** the deal, and I will get back at that time.


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## PlayboyJoeShmoe

Did not get home for weekend.
MAY get home later this week.
Have not forgotten my pledge to test 4 cell Magled on 3 nimh or alk.


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## PlayboyJoeShmoe

Did get home for a couple days.

Found my 3D NimH light and tried those batts against a 4 cell Magled. It lights it up but it is pretty dim compared to 4 Alks.

I need to and probably will try the experiment again in a 3 cell Mag. I have the 4 cell in an old Streamlight Excalibre 5D with 4 alk and spacer.

I'll try to get back to that before going on the road again.


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## daf3m

Thank you  waiting for feedback!


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## PlayboyJoeShmoe

In a 3D Mag with 3AA Nimh in C size adapters and a short bolt to make up the difference....

It seems to be while not blinding, certainly as good or better than a stock incandescent Mag.

I'll try three Alk D if I can come up with three. Give me a minute.

No apparent dif between 3AA NimH and 3D Alk.

I could leave the light like this and my family would probably never notice the difference.

It is two different lights with different reflectors. I'm not SURE the 3 Cell Magled in the test light running on 3 NimH AA is ALL THAT MUCH brighter than the 4 Cell on 4D Alk in the Streamlight. 

You must remember, these are simple Luxeon LEDs in these Magleds so none of them are ultra bright.

The Rebel 2D I got is handily brighter than ANY of the Luxeon models.


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