# Sunwayman C20C (XM-L, 1x18650/2xCR123A) Review: RUNTIMES, VIDEO, BEAMSHOTS and more!



## selfbuilt (Aug 3, 2012)

*Warning: pic heavy, as usual. *











The C20C is the latest member of the new C-series lights from Sunwayman - this time in a 2xCR123A/1x18650 form factor. Very compact, it shares a lot of similarities (and a few differences) from the C10R. Let's go through them … 

*Manufacturer Specifications:* 
_Note: as always, these are only what the manufacturer/dealers report. To see my actual testing results, scroll down the review._


 CREE XM-L U2 LED
Soft-contact Side Switch:
One Turbo mode, three modes constant output, hidden Strobe and SOS (below are output and runtime details by using one 2600mAh 18650 battery)
Turbo Mode: 450 Lumens (for safety’s sake, after 5 minutes’ turbo mode, the light will go to High mode automatically to avoid over-heat)
Three constant output modes: 280Lumens (3hrs) – 95Lumens (10hrs) - 15Lumens (50hrs)
Strobe: 450Lumens
SOS
Constant current circuit, constant output
Effective range of 139 meters
Uses two 3V CR123A batteries or one single 18650 battery
Working voltage: 4~8.4V
High quality OP metal reflector maintains great throw distance and spread with an ideal beam pattern
Dimensions: 105mm (length) x 25mm (head diameter) x 24mm (tail diameter)
Weight: 57g（battery excluded）
Aerospace-grade aluminum alloy, stainless steel retaining ring on the head
Military Specification Type III- hard anodized body
Waterproof, in accordance with IPX-8 standard
Ultra-clear tempered glass lens resists scratches and impacts
Tail stand capable- can be used as a candle
Accessories: Clip, lanyard, holster, O-ring 
MSRP: ~$69






Unlike my C10R, the C20C came in full final retail packaging. As expected, packaging included a belt holster, lanyard strap, extra o-rings, manual, warranty card and product insert. 

In keeping with the current Sunwayman labeling convention, the C20C has a model "name" as well as number – in this case, they are calling the light the "Tomahawk". 













From left to right: AW Protected 18650, Sunwayman C20C, Zebralight SC600, Nitecore EC2, Eagletac D25LC2, Lumintop ED20, Foursevens Quark 123-2.

*Measured Dimensions*

All dimensions are given with no batteries installed:

*Sunwayman C20C*: Weight 57.6g, Length: 104.8mm. Width (bezel): 25.6mm, Width (head at widest part): 28.6mm
*Eagletac D25LC2*: Weight: 50.0g, Length: 116.3mm, Width (bezel): 22.5mm
*4Sevens Quark Q123-2 X* (Regular tailcap): Weight: 44.6g, Length: 112.7mm, Width (bezel) 22.0mm
*Jetbeam PC20*: Weight: 60.0g, Length: 127.5mm, Width (bezel): 22.6mm
*Lumintop ED20*: Weight 84.4g, Length 121.6mm, Width (bezel) 25.2mm
*Nitecore EC2*: Weight: 60.9g, Length: 101.7mm, Width (bezel): 25.5mm, Width (widest):26.7mm
*Spark SL6*: Weight 77.8g, Length: 125.5mm, Width (bezel) 30.9mm
*Thrunite TN12*: Weight: 64.0g, Length: 126.9mm, Width (bezel): 24.1mm
*Zebralight SC600*: Weight 87.2g, Length: 107.8mm, Width (bezel) 29.7mm

The C20C is definitely very petite for the class. oo: Overall build of the C20C is very similar to the C10R – in fact, from the "neck up" (i.e. the heads), they look identical.  The C20C is also not that much larger overall really, as you can see in the comparison pic below.






Here are some detailed pics:






















As with all Sunwayman lights, you get the dark gray natural finish anodizing on the C20C. Sunwayman has always had one of the best quality finishes. As always, all labels are fairly small and bright white against the dark background. 

Like the C10R, and recent M11R/V11R, Sunwayman has knurling of reasonable aggressiveness on the C20C. With other build elements (ridges, raised areas, etc), I would say overall grip is good.

The body tube is wide enough to take protected 18650 cells, as well as 2xCR123A. I didn't experience any issues with longer cells. :thumbsup:

Like the C10R, the C20C is controlled by Sunwayman's new "Smart Switch" - an electronic switch in the head (under a rubber button cover). Switch feel is good for this type of switch, with a definite "click" upon activation. Scroll down for a discussion of the UI.

There is a red LED on the other side of the head from the switch, which serves as a low voltage indicator for the battery. See the UI section below for a discussion.

A clip-on style pocket clip is included with the C20C. While nothing special, it holds onto the light reasonably well for this sort of clip. Note that no clip was included with the C10R. 

The light only opens at the tailcap, and screw threads are a thick square-cut and fully anodized for lock-out. :bow: I am glad to see Sunwayman restore anodizing after leaving it off the C10R. Screw thread design and number is otherwise similar to the C10R (which differs from the earlier 1xCR123A/RCR lights.










As previously mentioned, the C20C looks virtually identical to the C10R. There is one difference on my sample – the reflector doesn't seem to be quite as deeply seated on my C20C. You can see some evidence for this above – notice the reflection of the bond wires in the upper left-hand size of the reflector? This will likely result in a greater number of beam artifacts around the hotspot. 

I've opened up the head to take a look inside:






A few other makes and models have been known to suffer from reflector depth issues (e.g. Zebralight SC600). But as a general rule, it is always easier to raise a reflector than lower it. And in this case, there is nothing I can really do to adjust the height – the plastic insert around the LED seems fully seated. I presume this is therefore just natural variability between samples. :shrug:






The tail cap allows tailstanding, and a cut-out region to allow you to attach a lanyard through a split ring (while maintaining the ability to tailstand). Why I like these sorts of designs, the aluminum seems very thing on the attachment point of the tail (i.e., I worry it may wear through over time).

*User Interface*

User interface is similar to C10R, but with an additional constant output mode.

With the tailcap fully-connected, turn the light off/on by the electronic clicky switch. The C20C has two options – click (i.e., quick press and release) for constant on, or press-and-hold for momentary. 

As with some of the Spark and Zebralight models that use a similar interface, it may take you a little time to get the timing just right (i.e., too slow on the release, and the light will shut-off, thinking you wanted momentary). But this delayed momentary does give you option to signal with light if you want (i.e., short and long pulses of Morse code). 

First time you activate the light, it comes on in Turbo mode. Change output modes by pressing and holding the switch from clicked on. The light will cycle between constant output modes in the following order: Turbo > Hi > Med > Lo, in repeating order. Let go off the switch to select the mode you want.

Light has mode memory, and will retain the last constant output used when turning off and on.

There are "hidden" modes; a strobe and SOS (activated and double-clicking the switch rapidly). On first double-click you get strobe, on second double-click you get SOS. Single click to turn off. Light returns to the memorized constant output when clicked back on. 

As this is an electronic switch, a standby current is required (see below for measurements). To reduce the risk of accidental activation, Sunwayman provides a switch lock-out mode. After waiting a minimum of 7 secs with the light off, do a quick click followed immediately by a press-hold. After 1 sec, the light will shut off and cannot be re-activated until the lockout is deactivated. To restore full functioning, double-click the switch followed by a press-hold. 

As with all lights with anodized threads, you can also physically lock out the light by a head twist.

There is a secondary red LED on the other side of the head from the switch, which will warn you when a battery is running low. On my C10R, this indicator was set to only work on 1xRCR (by checking for a minimum 3.3V on connection, with a double-flash). The indicator went solid red when the cell reached ~3.05V resting voltage. By that point, output had already dropped to <10% initial output, so it wasn't much of an advanced warning. 

On the C20C, the indicator is set to work with only 1x18650. There is no need to check the voltage ahead of time (since that is the lower voltage power source it supports), so there is no flash on connection. The indicator went solid red at ~3.45V resting voltage on my sample. This is a more useful advance indicator of waning battery capacity than the C10R, but is likely already obvious to you by the dropping Hi/Turbo output. Note that it is so low that none of the 2x sources will ever trigger it in practice (i.e. 2xCR123A would be nearly dead, and 2xRCR would have triggered their protection circuits long before then).

For information on the light, including the build and user interface, please see my new video overview:



Video was recorded in 720p, but YouTube typically defaults to 360p. Once the video is running, you can click on the configuration settings icon and select the higher 480p to 720p options. You can also run full-screen. 

*PWM*

There is no sign of PWM that I can see, at any output level – I presume the light is current-controlled, as claimed.  






Strobe is a standard "tactical" high frequency strobe, measured at 11.6 Hz (similar to the C10R). 

*Standby Drain*

As the switch is an electronic one, a standby current drain is always present when a battery is installed. 

When I first connect my DMM, I measured an initial current of 1.5mA (on an 18650 cell). However, after a few seconds, the stand-by drain dropped to 10.0uA, and remained there stably. This would translate into nearly 30 years before a 2600mAh battery would be drained. It is definitely negligible, and not a concern. 

Sunwayman provides a switch lock-out mode that is activated by a quick click followed by a sustained press (see UI section – same as the C10R or T60CS). But unlike the C10R, you can fully lock-out the C20C by a twist of the tailcap (thanks to the anodized threads).

*Beamshots:*

Time for the white-wall beamshots.  All lights are on Max output on an 1x 18650 AW protected cell. Lights are about ~0.75 meter from a white wall (with the camera ~1.25 meters back from the wall). Automatic white balance on the camera, to minimize tint differences. 





























































You can't really see it in the beamshots, but as I expected, the slight depth misalignment of the reflector has resulted in a number of subtle artifacts around the hotspot. Rather than a sharply defined hotspot, you get an overlapping pattern of distortions in the corona. While not severe on my sample, they are noticeable on a white wall.

Looking back at my C10R, I see it also has some evidence of this same effect - it is just more noticeable on my C20C. This not much of a problem in real-life use, but it is noticeable by eye on white walls.

*Testing Method:* 

All my output numbers are relative for my home-made light box setup, a la Quickbeam's flashlightreviews.com method. You can directly compare all my relative output values from different reviews - i.e. an output value of "10" in one graph is the same as "10" in another. All runtimes are done under a cooling fan, except for any extended run Lo/Min modes (i.e. >12 hours) which are done without cooling.

I have devised a method for converting my lightbox relative output values (ROV) to estimated Lumens. See my How to convert Selfbuilt's Lightbox values to Lumens thread for more info. 

*Throw/Output Summary Chart:*

My summary tables are reported in a manner consistent with the ANSI FL-1 standard for flashlight testing. Please see http://www.flashlightreviews.ca/FL1.htm for a discussion, and a description of all the terms used in these tables. Effective July 2012, I have updated all my Peak Intensity/Beam Distance measures with a NIST-certified Extech EA31 lightmeter (orange highlights).






Sunwayman reports a max output on Turbo of 450 lumens. That seems a lot lower than my sample, which I would estimate as >600 lumens (and pretty close to the Eagletac D25LC2). However, once the Turbo mode steps down to Hi, I get ~450 estimated lumens on the C20C (which is a lot higher than the spec 280 lumens). :shrug:

Interestingly, my peak intensity and beam distance measures on Turbo are right on with Sunwayman specs (i.e. 139m reported vs 140m actually measured).

Let's see how output varies across batteries, in estimated lumens (estimated as described above, at ANSI FL-1 standard of 30 secs after activation):






As you can see, the C20C is very consistent in output across all battery types.

Interestingly, it is also very similar to several modes of my Eagletac D25LC2 (which was also very consistent on different battery sources). Shown below are the comparable D25LC2 levels, on 1x18650:

Lo1: 28 estimated lumens
Med1: 125 estimated lumens
Hi2: 470 estimated lumens
Turbo: 660 estimated lumens

*Output/Runtime Comparison:*










Output/runtime efficiency is good on my C20C, just as it was for the C10R. The C20C is more heavily driven than I would have expected (based on output specs). Relative mode level spacing appears to be reasonably good, but I would have preferred a lower low.

Note that despite my higher estimated output levels, my actual runtimes are quite consistent with Sunwayman specs (when you take into account the higher capacity battery they used, and the ANSI FL-1 standard time to 10%).






Note the official specs don't make any mention of 2xRCR. However, the voltage range (up to ~8.4V) would suggest it can handle them. And the SWM website does make mention of "16340" (aka RCR) at one point, so I figured it was worth a try.






*Potential Issues*

Switch timings may take a little getting used to. As you can activate a momentary mode by a sustained press, you must be quick on the press-release for it to register as a click (for sustained on). Other electronic switches (e.g., Zebralights and Spark) can similarly take some getting used to initially.

Due to the electronic switch, a small standby current is always required when a battery is installed. However, this drain was measured at an inconsequential level (i.e. several years before it would drain a battery). As always, I recommend you store the light locked-out when not in use (which is possible here thanks to the anodized threads).

The split-ring/lanyard attachment point in the tail looks thin, and my wear through over time. But this is a design style I like, as it maintains tailstanding.

My sample developed some intermittent flickering in the Turbo mode. It would disappear upon switching down to the lower modes, and may or may not re-appear when switching back to Turbo. Removing and re-installing the battery usually resolved it, and I couldn't reliably elicit it. I suspect it is a circuit issue, as there was no sign of it on the other modes. 

*Preliminary Observations*

As the second member of the new C-series from Sunwayman, the 1x18650/2xCR123A C20C shares many of the same characteristics I described in my recent C10R review. But there are few aspects I prefer to the C20C.

The UI is basically the same, except for the addition of an extra "Turbo" mode on the C20C. This interface gives you a range of options, with blinking modes well "hidden". As with all electronic switches that offer both momentary-on and click-on, it may take you a little while to get used to the exact timings. But once you do, it works consistently.

The physical build is also comparable, with similar styling and the trademark attractive natural anodizing finish from Sunwayman. I am very glad to screw thread anodizing has been restored on the C20C (i.e., so that you can lock out the light). :thumbsup: The C20C is quite petite for a 1x18650-sized light as well.

Performance-wise, the C20C is very similar to my Eagletac D25LC2 clicky – both for absolute output levels and relative runtime performance (see output measures earlier in this review). This demonstrates a good current-controlled circuit. Although relative spacing is good, I would still like to see a lower Lo mode (i.e., there is certainly no "Moonlight" level here).

The C20C shares the same head design as the C10R, so should have a comparable beam. However, I found my C20C sample to have more irregularities in the corona around the hotspot (likely due to variability in the exact seating of the reflector). This produces some artifacts around the beam's hotspot (although it is really more a problem on white walls than in real life use). Overall beam pattern is still quite good, and very similar to some of the XM-L-based Zebralights (i.e., relatively large hotspot, with a wide and even spillbeam).

While generally similar to the C10R, I personally prefer the extra touches on the C20C (e.g., the anodized screw threads, pocket clip, extra Turbo mode, larger battery capacity, etc.). :thumbsup: It is also remarkably compact for a 1x18650 light. Unless you really need the compact size of the C10R, the C20C may be a better option for overall versatility and extended battery capacity. :wave:

----

C20C was supplied by Sunwayman for review.


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## hawk45 (Aug 3, 2012)

Nice review. Thanks you!


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## nullity (Aug 3, 2012)

Thanks for the great review, as always.


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## kj2 (Aug 3, 2012)

Thanks for the review


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## peterharvey73 (Aug 3, 2012)

Just 2 questions Selfbuilt:

(1) How come your SC600 now throws 167 meters, over the old 145 meters?
And the RRT-21 throws 173 meters, over the old 155 meters?
Most of your data has changed?

Edit:
Oh, now you measure them 30 seconds after activation.
That means before, you measured them instantly?

(2) Is there any good reason the Sunway C20C only outputs 620 lumens OTF, rather than the SC600's 780 lumens?


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## selfbuilt (Aug 3, 2012)

peterharvey73 said:


> (1) How come your SC600 now throws 167 meters, over the old 145 meters?
> And the RRT-21 throws 173 meters, over the old 155 meters?
> Most of your data has changed?
> Edit:
> ...


No, I've always measured at 30 secs post activation. The new numbers (in orange highlight) are due to a new NIST-calibrated lightmeter. It is all explained here:

Revised Selfbuilt beam intensity measures: new NIST-calibrated Extech EA31 lux-meter 



> (2) Is there any good reason the Sunway C20C only outputs 620 lumens OTF, rather than the SC600's 780 lumens?


It's a design choice - not everyone chases the max lumens. Of note, the SC600 was always pushing the envelope for max output - but offers several other programmable lower multi-hundred lumen Hi modes to choose from instead. The C20C is a more straight-forward light, with a balanced approach to size and output.


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## BWX (Aug 4, 2012)

That lanyard looks identical to the one I have on my Crelent 7G5 v2 (production). 

I think it came with my 7G5, about 90% sure- I have so many lanyards laying around from all these lights....


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## frosty (Aug 4, 2012)

Another great review.:thumbsup:


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## selfbuilt (Aug 4, 2012)

Just updated the review with specific measures of when the red LED battery indicator activated.

On my C10R, this indicator was set to only work on 1xRCR (by checking for a minimum 3.3V on connection, with a double-flash). The indicator went solid red when the cell reached ~3.05V resting voltage. By that point, output had already dropped to <10% initial output, so it wasn't much of an advanced warning. 

On the C20C, the indicator is set to work with only 1x18650. There is no need to check the voltage ahead of time (since that is the lower voltage power source it supports), so there is no flash on connection. The indicator went solid red at ~3.45V resting voltage on my sample. This is a more useful advance indicator of waning battery capacity than the C10R, but is likely already obvious to you by the dropping Hi/Turbo output. Note that it is so low that none of the 2x sources will ever trigger it in practice (i.e. 2xCR123A would be nearly dead, and 2xRCR would have triggered their protection circuits long before then).


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## BWX (Aug 4, 2012)

For me, a warning at about 3.6 volts would be helpful.


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## carl (Aug 4, 2012)

Thank you for the review! A few questions:
1) Is the protruding button easy to activate by accident?
2) How many amps on turbo?
3) Any beamshot comparisons with the ZL SC600?


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## selfbuilt (Aug 4, 2012)

carl said:


> 1) Is the protruding button easy to activate by accident?


Hard to say, I haven't tried carrying it on me. It would certainly be a lot easier than the Zebralights, and I used to find those periodically activating on me. I recommend storing it locked out at the switch or tailcap if EDCing on your belt or in a pocket.



> 2) How many amps on turbo?


I don't typically do tailcap current draws at higher outputs, as I know from experience that the DMM and leads can introduce significant resistance. On more highly-driven lights, this can definitely lead to spurious outcomes (i.e., circuit reacts differently, with lower output, etc.). The only way to ensure reliable current draw measures is at the head, using a bench-top power supply (which I don't have). :shrug:



> 3) Any beamshot comparisons with the ZL SC600?


The white wall beamshots are in the review - I don't plan to do outdoor ones. As you tell from the shots, the profile is similar - with the SC600 having a slightly wider spillbeam and a slightly wider hotspot.


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## carl (Aug 5, 2012)

Selfbuilt - thank you for your answers and for this review. This light is a very interesting option to the ZL SC600. As you said, I wish it had a lower low though.


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## ouchyfoot (Aug 9, 2012)

> The light only opens at the tailcap, and screw threads are a thick square-cut and fully anodized for lock-out.



After examining mine, I tried opening the tailcap using medium strength. Mmmm...maybe it doesn't open this way. I checked the included manual and it showed it in the diagram with the head off and a battery beside it. I really had to tork down on it, but finally it gave. I looked inside and there was blue gunk dried all over the threads. Mmmmm
I read your review closely and noticed you said only the tail opens. Mmmmm. I exerted presure and the cap came loose.
I guess I wasn't supposed to remove the head. What I need to know is if I should leave the head as is or locktite it back down?...or maybe I should just grease up the threads.


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## selfbuilt (Aug 9, 2012)

ouchyfoot said:


> I guess I wasn't supposed to remove the head. What I need to know is if I should leave the head as is or locktite it back down?...or maybe I should just grease up the threads.


It shouldn't matter. The head of mine is obviously loctited, but it shouldn't make much of a difference either way. Surprised you had a hard time withe the tailcap on yours, sounds like they loctited both ends on your sample?


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## ChibiM (Aug 11, 2012)

Great review! 
I really like this SWM, because of its size, but a draw back is the Medium Low, I`m missing really a Low Low. 
Specs say 15lm.. but you even measured 27... thats a bit too much for a low..... my taste!


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## brag (Sep 1, 2012)

My C20C showed up from Battery junction, light was smaller than I thought, and I like it a lot, thanks for the review. My Callies 3100's fit just fine, and the kids have spent 4 hours in the pool with it last night, no leaks!!!!!!!!!!! It's floody(knew it would be), and maybe we will see a light like this with a G2 LED. No low/low so it will be more of an EDC light vs camping. I've ordered 3 more for family members.


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## selfbuilt (Sep 2, 2012)

brag said:


> and the kids have spent 4 hours in the pool with it last night, no leaks!!!!!!!!!!!


No that's what I call extreme torture testing. :laughing:


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## ouchyfoot (Sep 2, 2012)

I found that I have to crank the tailcap really hard to make contact. It doesn't matter what kind of battery. I'm a big guy and when I tork down the lid of a peanut butter jar...your not gonna get it open. I think the body could have used an extra thread. I'm afraid I'm eventually going to mash the threads or lose tailcap contact altogether. Is there some kind of very thin washer I could put in the bottom of the tail to effect earlier contact?


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## brag (Sep 4, 2012)

selfbuilt said:


> No that's what I call extreme torture testing. :laughing:


 LOL, I know, 4 hours in water, no Problem. 4 hours with kids, EXTREME testing. I bought a Pelican light many moons ago, it had a small piece of paper stating: "The guarantee does not cover shark bite, bear attack and children under five" I wish I had framed that!! Pelican people equals smart peoples.


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## cancow (Sep 5, 2012)

I agree, lower lows needed. It seems like manufacturers do not want to make the perfect all around light so to justify the large line of offerings. If all SWM products had sub 1 lumen modes and a beacon mode I would probably never buy another brand. 




ChibiM said:


> Great review!
> I really like this SWM, because of its size, but a draw back is the Medium Low, I`m missing really a Low Low.
> Specs say 15lm.. but you even measured 27... thats a bit too much for a low..... my taste!


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## Romanko (Oct 31, 2012)

Unprotected cells supported?


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## selfbuilt (Oct 31, 2012)

Romanko said:


> Unprotected cells supported?


Judging from my protected 18650 runtimes, it looks like the light will just continue to drain the cells until they are dead. However, there is a very clear drop-off in output long before that happens, which you could use as a signal to recharge the cell.


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## BlackhawkB (Oct 31, 2012)

What is the current drain on Turbo mode and High mode ?
Are the 650 lumens on turbo mode for the production model also, or only the prototype one ?


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## selfbuilt (Nov 1, 2012)

BlackhawkB said:


> What is the current drain on Turbo mode and High mode ?
> Are the 650 lumens on turbo mode for the production model also, or only the prototype one ?


I don't typically do tailcap current draws, as they aren't always indicative of emitter drive levels (and the output/runtime graphs answer what most people want to know in terms of levels over time).

AFAIK, my sample is the final shipping version. But as with all lights, I don't know if the manufacturer has made any changes in drive levels since this review was completed.


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## Verndog (Nov 14, 2012)

Question on "working voltage" when using 18650 cells in this light. Per specs above "*Working voltage: 4~8.4V*". So how is this possible with a 3.7v cell? My concern at this point is running unprotected 18650 cells and this light over discharging past 2.5v min that may ruin the batteries. Any help appreciated..


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## selfbuilt (Nov 15, 2012)

Verndog said:


> Question on "working voltage" when using 18650 cells in this light. Per specs above "*Working voltage: 4~8.4V*". So how is this possible with a 3.7v cell? My concern at this point is running unprotected 18650 cells and this light over discharging past 2.5v min that may ruin the batteries. Any help appreciated..


The working voltage range is to indicate that 2xCR123A and 2xRCR will work in the light, in addition to 1x18650.

The issue of over-discharge is different. In this case, you can tell from the runtimes that 1x18650 either drops-down or rapidly falls off in output as the cell nears exhaustion. So you could probably use unprotected cells fairly well (on Med-Hi) if you wanted to - just make sure to charge the battery by the time you notice a drop-off in output.


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## Verndog (Nov 15, 2012)

selfbuilt said:


> The working voltage range is to indicate that 2xCR123A and 2xRCR will work in the light, in addition to 1x18650.
> 
> The issue of over-discharge is different. In this case, you can tell from the runtimes that 1x18650 either drops-down or rapidly falls off in output as the cell nears exhaustion. So you could probably use unprotected cells fairly well (on Med-Hi) if you wanted to - just make sure to charge the battery by the time you notice a drop-off in output.



OK I get that you can tell when to change, but my concern with a light of this type is if accidental power on occurs (very possible with this type of switch), and it goes undetected...will it drain the battery an ruin the cell? Since I haven't bought the cells yet, I could get protected, but prefer the unprotected for cost and possible fit reasons. So, bottom line, is there a low voltage cutoff in the light?

Thank you for the help.

Kevin


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## jpil (Nov 29, 2012)

Great review! 

Sunwayman use one 2600mAh 18650 battery. Can i use one battery like this below or 3400mAh?



Panasonic 18650A 
Capacity: 3100mAh 
Recommended Max Discharge: 6.2A (2C) 
Full charge: 4.2V 
Nominal voltage: 3.6V 
Cut-off: 2.5V 

The reason I ask is I don't know the technical specs of the light. Is it better to have the possible higher retained voltage of the 2600 mAh battery. Or the possible higher retained amperage from the 3100mAh or 3400mAh battery?


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## Patriot (Nov 29, 2012)

Verndog said:


> OK I get that you can tell when to change, but my concern with a light of this type is if accidental power on occurs (very possible with this type of switch), and it goes undetected...will it drain the battery an ruin the cell? Since I haven't bought the cells yet, I could get protected, but prefer the unprotected for cost and possible fit reasons. So, bottom line, is there a low voltage cutoff in the light?
> 
> Thank you for the help.
> 
> Kevin




Kevin, I'm certainly 'on board' that it's interesting to know if it has low voltage cutoff or not but the reasons that you're citing for the possibility of running unprotected cells are quite trivial. It seems that this light accepts 3100 & 3400mAh cells. No fit problems thus far so count that as a non-issue . 18650 protected cells are available for as little as $7-8 a copy. What does an unprotected 18650 cell cost....a dollar less? I think the safety benefits far outweigh any perceived objections.

Without a bench top / power supply, I don't think Selfbuilt has any way to test whether this light possesses a low voltage cutoff without actually running a non-protected 18650 in the light. Perhaps you could send him one to possibly ruin.


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## selfbuilt (Nov 29, 2012)

To jpil: You should be fine. There is no difference in voltage between the batteries, only capacity, measured in mAh.

The only possible problem is that higher capacity cells are often slightly thicker or longer than lower capacity cells. I dont recall any problems with 3100mAh cells on my sample, so you should be fine.


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## jpil (Dec 1, 2012)

Thank you selfbuilt for the answer.

Can you write the length of the 3100mAh battery that you use?


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## selfbuilt (Dec 1, 2012)

jpil said:


> Thank you selfbuilt for the answer.
> Can you write the length of the 3100mAh battery that you use?


I don't have it handy, but it was the Xtar 3100mAh that I would have used.


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## jpil (Dec 2, 2012)

Thanks again selfbuilt.

Xtar 3100mAh 68.5mm


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## Patriot (Dec 4, 2012)

This sure looks like a nice light. I'm very eager to see how the S20 stacks up against it. I'm sort of holding out on this one until the first reports come in.

Thanks for the great review Selfbuilt! You sure are a generous wealth of information for this community.


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## selfbuilt (Dec 5, 2012)

Patriot said:


> This sure looks like a nice light. I'm very eager to see how the S20 stacks up against it.


Me too.  I am currently testing the S20, and hope to have a review up within a couple of weeks.


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## Patriot (Dec 7, 2012)

Waiting with excited expectation buddy!


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## kolbasz (Dec 19, 2012)

Patriot said:


> This sure looks like a nice light. I'm very eager to see how the S20 stacks up against it.
> 
> Thanks for the great review Selfbuilt! You sure are a generous wealth of information for this community.



+1

I'm very happy to read that it is now available with NW tint, hope the S20 will come out with NW led too.


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## 300Z (Jan 12, 2013)

Has anyone had any problems with their C20C?

I have had mine for about 3-4 months now and it has been flawless till a week ago when it all of a sudden wouldn't come on at all. I tried 2 different fully charged batteries that are as old as the light with the same results, the first time it happened the light started working again after sitting for ~12 hrs, now sometimes it just stops working without any warning and sometimes the low battery indicator will blink a couple of times and the light stops working and won't come back on even if I replace the battery with a fully charged battery. Very unpredictable and frustrating.
I ordered new Panasonic NCR18650A 3100mAh batteries just to rule out the batteries aren't the problem but I need a reliable light.


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## selfbuilt (Jan 13, 2013)

Hmmm, sounds strange. Sometimes with electronic-switch-controlled lights, they can get "confused" and need to sit for a period of time with no battery installed to reset (i.e., there can be a residual current that lingers even after breaking contact). Beyond the usual advice to thoroughly clean all contact surfaces, I would suggest contacting your dealer/manufacturer about a repair if this problem continues. No one wants to be without a reliable light.


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## 300Z (Jan 14, 2013)

Thank you for your response.
The light stopped working again last night and I did clean all the contact surfaces but that didn't help, this morning it worked for about two min and hasn't worked since... 
I got the light thru BatteryJunction.com and I contacted them, they want me to try a new battery which I will when they get here in the next couple of days.
This morning I ordered a Nitecore EC25, I had a D11 previously and loved it apart from the high standby draw.


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## pageyjim (Apr 6, 2013)

That's what mine did out of the box. Still is doing the same thing after a year or so. I hate going to the post office.


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## 400THz (Apr 7, 2013)

I received my Sunwayman C20C "Tomahawk" a few days ago, and I am quite *disappointed*.
It's also my first Sunwayman, and probably the last.

As a "tint snob", I got the Neutral White Special Edition. I wouldn't even consider the CW one. The tint is decent; similar in CCT (correlated color temperature) but a bit worse than my "benchmark" NW Xeno E03 XM-L (C20C has a distinct magenta tint, mainly evident when directly compared to the Xeno).

*First impressions:*

*The good ones:*
Incredibly small and compact for a 18650 light, just a bit larger than a "regular" AA rear clicky like the Fenix LD10 or the Xeno E03.
... and yet even large cells fit easily (like the protected Panasonic NCR18650B from FastTech, one of the largest 3400mAh cells around)
It has springs on both ends of the battery tube, to absorb impacts without stressing the cell or the circuit too much.
Great UI, with instant access to both turbo and low and electronic lockout (the latter necessitated by the fact that the tailcap lockout is almost unusable, see the section below). "Blinky" modes are almost hidden. I had my doubts before holding it in my hand, but they were dispelled within 3 minutes of usage.
Flawless anodising
Decent circuit design: Efficient, regulated, no PWM (I'm gonna blindly trust Selfbuilt on that ;-)

*The bad ones:*
LED not perfectly centered. In conjunction with the issue mentioned by Selfbuilt (reflector seating), it leads to a slightly uneven beam with a(n almost imperceptible) donut hole.
The sample I got has a smooth reflector despite the fact that the seller advertises an orange-peel reflector (which I would greatly prefer for an EDC). Probably not the seller's fault: Based on pictures I found, it seems that both variants exist, but this spec is not mentioned on the box. It seems I lost the "reflector lottery". Anyway, an OP reflector would alleviate the previous issue. Alas...
The head-side threads of the tube are non-anodised and "interrupted" (pardon my terminology, I'm not a mechanical engineer). I don't know the purpose of the cuts, but maybe those threads were really meant to be loctite-d. Which brings us to the next two issues...
All threads are too thin and *shallow* for my taste
All threads are very *gritty*, even after repeated careful cleaning and lubing... I'm avoiding tailcap lockout for this reason alone, it feels as if I'll wear them through, thin as they are! (not possible, I know ;-)
The o-rings are ridiculously filmsy and (after lubing) don't stay at their place when screwing the tailcap. I almost destroyed the rear one when it got "chewed up" betwean the threads, despite always being careful...
Not enough of a "lip" over the o-rings, the lube is almost exposed to the dust (and my hands exposed to the lube). I have the feeling that hand-washing this flashlight, as I regularly do with my Xeno E03, isn't a good idea... (The Xeno, _at half the cost_, has properly sealed head, double o-rings nicely seated and thick square threads that are extremely smooth - its anodising is lacking and its runtime with a 14500 Li-Ion is too short, but in terms of reliability it far surpasses the C20C, from what I've seen*)
Last but not least, the Sunwayman has a surprisingly lightweight construction. This point is entirely subjective, but I would prefer thicker walls and threads.

*In short*, it is a decent flashlight, but not worth the money. *It is a premium product, and as such its flaws are inexcusable.* Even worse, there exist *both* design flaws and QC oversights. The size and the UI would make it a great EDC, if only it would also inspire some confidence. It does not.

With the import costs (duties), the Sunwayman C20C cost me about 64€ (or 83$). I bought it specifically for EDC usage, which means that I wanted a flawless beam and reliable construction in a small package. It fails my expectations. I can't help but compare it to my Solarforce L2P p60 host, which at 1/4th of the cost (!) manages to be 4 times the flashlight C20C is! (almost literally, in weight ;-) The L2P's anodising is just as good, the o-rings actually fit, the threads are deeply cut and smooth, with more turns (albeit not square; but who cares?) and the general fit and finish is actually *better*. Of course, it is too large to carry around.

I should have bought the Fenix PD32 UE (which I foolishly thought would be too long), or even the cheaper Xeno S3A v2. I fear that the latter wouldn't be very reliable (only IPX-7 rated and a bad track record with the switches), but I can't imagine it being any worse than the C20C.

I 'm probably making the C20C sound like a bad flashlight. It is not; it's just very, very overpriced for what it is, and surpassed by much cheaper alternatives when it comes to fit and finish. Essentially, all you are paying for is the nice UI and almost unique form factor.

Anyway, thanks for the in-depth review, Selfbuilt. It's great, as always; the flashlight isn't. I hope that my additional notes might help a few prospective buyers to balance its virtues with its shortcomings before deciding.

* If you exclude the horrible switch in the tailcap, supposedly fixed in newer versions of the E03.


*PS.* Does anyone know (or can measure) the exact dimensions of the o-rings? I'm afraid I'll have to buy a couple of new ones (and perhaps try a bit thicker ones)


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## 400THz (May 1, 2013)

After further inspection of the flashlight and e-mail communication with the Customer Service department of SUNWAYMAN, *which did a great job and really tried to help*, I'd like to correct/clarify a couple of my previous observations:



400THz said:


> LED not perfectly centered. In conjunction with the issue mentioned by Selfbuilt (reflector seating), it leads to a slightly uneven beam with a(n almost imperceptible) donut hole.
> The sample I got has a smooth reflector despite the fact that the seller advertises an orange-peel reflector (which I would greatly prefer for an EDC). Probably not the seller's fault: Based on pictures I found, it seems that both variants exist, but this spec is not mentioned on the box. It seems I lost the "reflector lottery". Anyway, an OP reflector would alleviate the previous issue. Alas...
> The head-side threads of the tube are non-anodised and "interrupted" (pardon my terminology, I'm not a mechanical engineer). I don't know the purpose of the cuts, but maybe those threads were really meant to be loctite-d.
> 
> [...]



It turns out that the LED was quite well centered. *The (very obvious) artifacts that I mistook as caused by a decentered LED are in fact (almost) symmetric and due to suboptimal reflector shape or placement.* It seems that Selfbuilt was right when he attributed them to incorrect reflector depth.
SUNWAYMAN told me that *most of the stock that is currently available in the market has smooth reflectors*. The very first samples used OP reflectors (which I guess is the reason for the wrong seller description), but they decided to switch to smooth reflectors and they believe that these are better for this particular model (presumably to improve throw).
Current production runs do *not* use loctite, to facilitate opening the head for users who want to do so. So, this is 100% normal and it seems that Selfbuilt's light was the exception.

As for me, I'm *much* happier with the brand-new OP reflector that I received (very quickly!) from SUNWAYMAN. :thumbsup: The beam is quite a bit smoother (and just a bit wider, which I prefer for EDC usage in an urban environment). The new reflector also sits a bit lower (perhaps 0.3 mm, but I didn't measure it).




400THz said:


> I 'm probably making the C20C sound like a bad flashlight. It is not; it's just very, very overpriced for what it is, and surpassed by much cheaper alternatives when it comes to fit and finish. Essentially, all you are paying for is the nice UI and almost unique form factor.


Well, you are also paying for exceptional customer service. As I stated in the previous thread that I linked, this might not become my favorite light, but the professionalism of the manufacturer certainly makes me more inclined to try other SUNWAYMAN products.



400THz said:


> *PS.* Does anyone know (or can measure) the exact dimensions of the o-rings? I'm afraid I'll have to buy a couple of new ones (and perhaps try a bit thicker ones)


Not need, SUNWAYMAN also sent me a full set of o-rings. :goodjob:


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## HotWire (Oct 8, 2013)

I've had my C20C for a couple of weeks and really enjoyed it. It's small and easy to carry. Very bright for such a small light! Here's a problem and solution: I started carrying a different light around and when I went back to my Tomahawk after not using it for several days I found it dead! No light. Nothing. I tried the click & hold thinking I may have locked it out. Nothing. I unscrewed the head --- the threads were covered with Locktite --- and tightened the plate using circlip pliers. Instant success! The plate (the one with a spring) had come loose in the head! Now I've got the Tomahawk working!


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## 1mT (Nov 3, 2013)

I have posted beamshot of my C20C XM-L2 NW on CPFMP just now.
I think this might be useful to someone, so I'll give the link here:
http://www.cpfmarketplace.com/mp/showthread.php?278455-C20C-Warm-Neutral-White&p=4794857#post4794857


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## pageyjim (May 8, 2014)

Bought a C20C 2 yrs ago or so it didn't work out of the box. Finaly got it to work yesterday. I loosened the head just a tad and it works. Doesn't work in turbo, absolutely no difference to the eye from turbo to high. Also checked with a meter. Some intermittent flickering in high, at this point I don't care. Previously I was only getting app 1.6 vdc from battery to end of body. I had cleaned contacts to no avail. Bottom line I like the size, looks feel and side switch of the C20C but besides the bean artifacts and above a big disappointment.
My modded C21C also doesn't work in turbo. Turbo is more like a med high mode.


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## Dr. Tweedbucket (Nov 7, 2015)

This is my first Sunwayman. I found these on a blowout sale, so snagged a few. Overall they are very nice lights. I like how compact they are and the one button interface. After having time to mess around with these lights (I bought two of them) a bit more I noticed the turbo and high mode are the same brightness. You can see it switch modes but there is no difference between turbo (620lumens) and hi (410)  I did several beam shots comparing those two modes and just can't tell any step down from turbo to high.
So, I set the light on turbo mode and let it time out at 5 minutes, I saw it switch to high mode, but again no difference in lux... so at least I know it is going into turbo mode. My floody Fenix P25 is 550 lumens (I think) so I did some beamshots on the wall between the C20C and the P25. They are about the same as far as I can tell.

The next and last thing I can try is to fully charge the battery and try it again. I'm running a 2900 mAh Panasonic but even half drained it should have been enough to make the turbo mode work.

Maybe 210 lumens is just too close at that point to tell a difference. Does anyone else have this problem with the newer 620 Lumen C20C ?


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## Dr. Tweedbucket (Nov 7, 2015)

pageyjim said:


> Bought a C20C 2 yrs ago or so it didn't work out of the box. Finaly got it to work yesterday. I loosened the head just a tad and it works. Doesn't work in turbo, absolutely no difference to the eye from turbo to high. Also checked with a meter. Some intermittent flickering in high, at this point I don't care. Previously I was only getting app 1.6 vdc from battery to end of body. I had cleaned contacts to no avail. Bottom line I like the size, looks feel and side switch of the C20C but besides the bean artifacts and above a big disappointment.
> My modded C21C also doesn't work in turbo. Turbo is more like a med high mode.





Ahh, just now seen this .... so I guess that is the nature of the beast! That's too bad, oh well, it's still a cool light if it's only three modes and in reverse!


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## pageyjim (Nov 7, 2015)

Dr. Tweedbucket said:


> Ahh, just now seen this .... so I guess that is the nature of the beast! That's too bad, oh well, it's still a cool light if it's only three modes and in reverse!



Yeah good luck with yours. I think if you get a good one it can be a good light.


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## 300Z (Dec 5, 2015)

300Z said:


> Thank you for your response.
> The light stopped working again last night and I did clean all the contact surfaces but that didn't help, this morning it worked for about two min and hasn't worked since...
> I got the light thru BatteryJunction.com and I contacted them, they want me to try a new battery which I will when they get here in the next couple of days.
> This morning I ordered a Nitecore EC25, I had a D11 previously and loved it apart from the high standby draw.


I just realized I never updated this.
I got the C20C replaced, and the new one also died the same way, I think it had something to do with the switch. I really loved this light despite it's flaws but I ended up getting it exchanged for a Nitecore MT2C.
All my Nitecore lights have been very reliable but runtimes and standby draw are an issue.
I'm looking to buy a new light in the next few months but this time I'm looking at either the Olight S30 or the Sunwayman G25C, any suggestions?
By the way Battery Junction was outstanding in helping me in dealing with the problems I had with the C20C, they will always have my business!


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## Dr. Tweedbucket (Dec 11, 2015)

So, kind of an update on mine .... I have a couple of them. I've read that some people complain about flickering or they just quit working. I found that the tail piece can come just a little bit loose and break contact with the battery. It doesn't take much but you need to make sure it is all the way tight. Same thing with the bezel. 

The other issue with mine was the light spacing from turbo to high. Well, with a weak or lower performance battery, you really won't see any difference. They recommend a 2600 mA battery and with one of those fully charged, there is a level change between modes. I run a 3000 mAh battery and it's even better, still they are pretty close. It would be better if turbo was more around 800 lumens, but as is, it's a very bright light and it looks like a million bucks!! :rock:


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## 300Z (Dec 11, 2015)

The problem with mine wasn't the tailcap, that was the first thing checked.
Battery performance was excellent using a Orbtronic 3100mAh battery.
Despite it's flaws I loved this light and I really wish it hadn't died, that's why I'm considering the Sunwayman G25C.


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