# The SF M6 X-LOLA: 200 lumens for 2.5 hours



## js

So, one day, I get a package from bwaites, and inside is a SF M3T. Cool! I thought. I'd been wanting to check this light out for a long time. Bill sent it to me with Pilas installed, actually, but I was more interested in the performance of the light when powered as intended--with 123 primaries.

So I install the MN15 and drop in three brand new SF 123A batteries. And . . . was rather disappointed. The beam was a bit cold. Not as white as I had hoped for. A definite disappointment. I guess that's why some have suggested that using the N2 LA instead of the MN15 is a cool thing to do. But I've never seen an N2 so I wouldn't know one way or another.

Anyway, I was thinking about M6 lamp choices a couple weeks ago and all of a sudden it hit me! Why not make the M3T's loss the M6's gain? Both flashlights use the exact same turbo-head, so the only difference between them is the battery configuration driving the lamp. And, if you don't already know, both the M3T and the M6 are nominally 9 volt lights, driving lamps with three series CR123A batteries. The difference is that in the M3T, there is only a single stack of three series CR123A's, but in the M6, there are _two parallel stacks of three CR123A's_. Or electrically there are! Physically it looks like three stacks of two CR123A's, but the MB20 battery holder electrically connects this 3p2s physical arrangement into a 2p3s electrical arrangement. And a voltmeter will confirm that the MB20 battery holder loaded with 6 CR123A's has an open circuit voltage of approximately 9 volts.

(And by the way, I will mentioned that if you remove the correct 3 CR123A's from the holder, you can still have 9 volts from a single stack of 3 CR123A's but in the form-factor of the SF M6, but with the same battery configuration as the M3T. But I digress . . .)

The point is that if the MN15 was a bit less white than it should be on a single stack of three 123's, wouldn't it be perfect on *TWO STACKS* of three 123's? In case you're wondering what the reasoning here, I will quickly say that the voltage _under load_ of a battery (and especially CR123A batteries) very much depends on both the state of charge _and_ the draw rate. Draw more current and you have less voltage at the lamp. Draw less current, and you have more voltage. And since the two stacks of 3 CR123A's in the SF M6 share the load equally, they will have half the current draw of what they would have in the M3T driving the MN15, so there will be an increase of voltage applied at the lamp. And since it is, in my estimation, a little underdriven in the M3T, I figured it would be a litter _overdriven_ in the M6. A little, but not too much, I hoped. My hotwire intuition told me that the MN15 in the M6 should be just about perfect!

Well, sure enough, it is *PERFECT IN THE SF M6*. I estimate it to be the same CCT as the A2: 3300 K, which is nice and white. About the same as the MN20. Plus, the slight overdrive pushes the output up a little as well as the whiteness.

So, I would guess the MN15 in the SF M6 is about a 175 to 200 lumen LA. And I'm guessing it will run for about 2.5 hours. I'm calling it an "X-LOLA" for Extra-Low Output LA. Or Extra-long running LA.

I went out tonight and field tested the beam, and I really, really like it. It easily throws 600 feet, and puts out a decent amount of light, with a lovely, white, pleasing beam. The MN20 is definitely brighter and longer throwing, but the MN20 won't run for 2 and 1/2 hours.

The thing about 123's is that at the lower draw rates, you really start to take advantage of their superior energy density, and they have better discharge curves--i.e. they hold better voltage under load over their run time.

Chamenos actually got me into the whole extra-long running lamp thing by recommending the MN02 for the E2e. He has since un-recommended it due to the fact that he has had two of the lamps exhibit very premature blackening and has gone back to the MN03. But still, the point is that 2.5 hours of runtime is a great thing, especially when the beam is nice and white and pleasing.

The SF M6 running the MN15 is like the SF A2's bigger brother. It might as well be regulated! I have used this combo for 30 minutes so far and haven't noticed the least bit of dimming or drop-off of whiteness.

I will be testing this combination extensively over the next several weeks and will do definitive runtime tests and make some bench measurements, and so on. But for now, I feel confident enough about it to post.

And, as it turns out, SureFire *will* warrantee this combination, as batman posted about in post #298 of this thread! He says that:



> Sorry to double post it up, but this is news. Surefire IS warranty covering the MN-15 in the M6 as of last week. I got an RMA and am getting a free replacement MN-15 for the M6.. In fact, the rep said that they know most people are having pretty good luck with the MN-15 in the M6. A new lamp assembly for me, only cost is sending the old, burned out MN-15 back to them.
> This is a case where honesty paid off and Surefire customer service is great.



So, that's awesome news!

However, *do not run the MN16 in the M6*. The MN16 is NOT underdriven on a single stack of three 123's, so two parallel stacks will push it too hard, and it might possibly flash at start-up, or have a much foreshortened life.

Thus, it is my distinct honor to introduce the "X-LOLA" SF M6 lamp configuration! Thank you SureFire for making such awesome lights!










So, to recap, I believe the stock SF M6 now has three viable LA's to use:

HOLA: MN21. 630 lumens, 20 minutes.
LOLA: MN20. 400 lumens, 1 hour.
X-LOLA: MN15. 200 lumens, 2.5 hours.


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## nickz

*Re: The SF M6 U-LOLA*

Nice find.... Now if I could only convince the wife that I "needed" A surefire M6... What do you estimate runtime at in this format?


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## js

*Re: The SF M6 U-LOLA*

nickz,

2.5 hours of runtime is my guess right now. I don't believe it will be more than that, and it could very well be less than that. However, it will be at least 2 hours I think. I'll be doing a runtime test in the next few days and will post about it when I do. For now it's pretty safe to say it will be somewhere between 2 and 2 1/2 hours.


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## LED61

*Re: The SF M6 U-LOLA*

Jim, is there a chance the MN61 would work in the M6 with primaries?


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## nickz

*Re: The SF M6 U-LOLA*



js said:


> nickz,
> 
> 2.5 hours of runtime is my guess right now. I don't believe it will be more than that, and it could very well be less than that. However, it will be at least 2 hours I think. I'll be doing a runtime test in the next few days and will post about it when I do. For now it's pretty safe to say it will be somewhere between 2 and 2 1/2 hours.


 
Very nice...!


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## cue003

*Re: The SF M6 U-LOLA*

looking forward to your runtime results. I wonder if there are any other bulbs we can run in the mighty M6.


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## Flea Bag

*Re: The SF M6 U-LOLA*

Thanks for posting that Jim!

I was always wonderring about whether the MN15 could work in the M6 but never had the guts to give it a try. I still don't dare to do it! Hope your long-term results come out fine.

Of my experiences with MN10,11,15,16,60,61,20&21 LAs in stock form, the MN20 in M6 has impressed the most for its consistancy specifically because of its 3s2p config. I got about 1h10 minutes of useful output. The M4-MN60 is nowhere near as consistant and at the later stages of its run it even loses out to the the MN15 running on 2x17670. I believe SureFire's ratings of 225 lumens for 1h in the M4-MN60 is less conservatively rated relative to the ratings of the M3 and M6.

If the filament can take it, I think you'll get more than 2.5 hours of better-than-stock output with the M6-MN15. If you can, try to compare the MN15 on 2x17670 with the M6-MN15. I've been using the former for quite some time and if both are similarly overdriven then there's good reason to think they'll both have excellent bulb lifespan purely in terms of theoretical runtime -assuming perfect reliability at every cold startup -which I don't think we can assume. Or heck, I might just compare them myself a little bit in the future.


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## js

*Re: The SF M6 U-LOLA*

LED61,

Well, the MN61 would "work" for sure, but it would definitely be _underdriven_. It's drive voltage on 4 123's is probably somewhere around 9.0 volts, and so even 2 parallel stacks of three 123's would be well under that. Like 7.0 volts or something. So the MN61 and the MN60 in the stock M6 are non-starters.

cue003,

Well, in stock configuration, the only other possiblities are the N2 and the MN16. I feel confident about the MN15, less than confident about the N2, and decidedly NOT confident about the MN16. But, either one or both could be workable in the M6.

Then of course, there is the LED head meant for the M3T body (the L6, IIRC. Right?). It will fit on the M6 body just as well as on the M3T body, and should also give around 2.5 hours of runtime.

Flea Bag,

You're welcome! I feel very confident that the long term tests will come out fine, but I will still definitely be *doing* them to make certain! The MN15 on 2p3s 123's is not into any kind of serious overdrive at all. It's about the same drive level as the MN20. So I would be very surprised to run into any problems. I am guessing it will have a very solid 35 hours of bulb life.

As for runtime, the MN15 will run for 1 hour on a single stack of 123's. So when you take into account the lower draw rate, and ignore losses due to internal resistance, for two stacks, you would get 2 hours even. But the lower draw rate for each stack (since they are sharing the load) means less I^2 * R losses, which means MORE than twice the runtime. (Same reason you get only 20 minutes of runtime from the SF HOLA's vs. 60 minutes of runtime from the LOLA's, even though the HOLA's are only double the power--approximately). So it's definitely going to be more than 2 hours even, but I would be surprised if it were more than 2.5 hours. We shall see, though.

OK. Moving on to 2x17670 Li-ion cells. Hmmm. I am guessing that the MN15 is being driven at about 7.8 volts on 2p3s 123's (i.e. about 2.6 volts per cell). This would be 3.9 volts per cell on two Li-ion's, which is decidedly too high. i.e., two Li-ion cells would be more likely to drive the MN15 at 7.4 volts or so. Thus, the MN15 driven by the MB20 M6 battery holder loaded with primary 123's will almost certainly be driven a bit harder than on 2 17670 Li-ion cells. But not by much. And, in fact, I suspect that the MN15 on a single stack of three 123's would be driven at about 7.5 volts.

As for lumens ratings, I think I have settled in on 185 lumens for the MN15 in the stock M6. The reason why is that it is noticeably LESS bright than the TL Gen 4 LA, which is 275 lumens, and it is about the same proportion (brightness wise) as the Gen 4 is to the MN20--which is about 50 percent brighter, MN20 vs. Gen 4. So if the Gen 4 is 50 percent brighter than the MN15/M6 combo, you get 185. i.e. 185 * 1.5 = 275 lumens (approximately). But, to be clear, _I am just guessing_, although it IS an educated guess.

Anyway, runtime test soon to come.


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## Lunal_Tic

*Re: The SF M6 U-LOLA*

How about X-LOLA as in extended runtime or SLOLA for super low output.

-LT


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## Flea Bag

*Re: The SF M6 U-LOLA*

Thanks Jim,

I came up with the more-than-2.5 hour figure partly out of estimation and calculation. 

For the calculation part, I noticed that the MN20 could get out 1h10mins of useful output from its cells. Even past this mark, the beam would have been brown but still very useful even outdoors. So for the MN15 I took that figure and multiplied it by two.

For the estimation part, I found the batteries at the 40 minute mark and at the end of the run to be very very hot -too hot to hold and much hotter than the external and internal surfaces of the M6's body. They also took quite a while to cool down. Quite some energy wasted there. I assumed a lot less resistance and heat would come from using the MN15 so I thought it would be good to add a few more minutes on top of the 1h10mins x 2.

It also depends on what kind of beam performance one would deem to be unacceptable from the MN15 in order to call an end to the runtime test. If SureFire can claim the MN15 to be 1h (given how yellow the beam was at the 1h mark using 3xCR123), then the MN15 in the M6 will probably produce a very acceptable beam for quite a while after the 2h20min mark. Again, there's quite a lot of estimation in my predicitons!  

But the really good news of it all is that the MN15 would make an excellent back-up bulb in the case of a failed MN20. The extra runtime would be very desirable in such situations and the beam, though suffering from a smaller, more concentrated hotspot size, would still have adequate throw.


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## AilSnail

*Re: The SF M6 U-LOLA*

i really like x-lola. gives warm associations.


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## js

*Re: The SF M6 U-LOLA*

Flea Bag,

Yes, it all will depend on just how dim you decide to go before cutting things off and declaring the run over. Personally, I find there is a period where the dimming becomes more rapid and pronounced, and that is where I call it. I focus in on the RATE of dimming, more so than the amount of dimming, although obviously if the beam dims down to less than 50 percent of starting, that's too much and I would call it there at that point regardless of the rate of dimming. In any case, yes, it is a judgement call.

And, yes, absolutely, there is a significant amount of power used up as heat inside the 123's the higher the draw rate, so yes, tacking on some extra is par for the course. These are the I^2*R losses I was talking about.

AilSnail,

Hmmm. Two votes for X-LOLA. OK. I kinda like that. Anyone else have a preference? So far we have U-LOLA, X-LOLA, and S-LOLA.


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## Flea Bag

*Re: The SF M6 U-LOLA*

How about VLOLA for very low output? Sounds close to voila!  We could use SLOLA for an even lower output lamp like the N2.


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## batman

*Re: The SF M6 U-LOLA*

so how are those runtime tests coming along?


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## js

*Re: The SF M6 U-LOLA*

OK. I actually finished the runtime test several days ago now, but since CPF was down, I couldn't post about it. So here it is:

*2.5 hours*

A very _solid_ 2.5 hours. There was probably another 10 minutes of decent light left, but as far as I could judge, at somewhere around 2 1/2 hours, give or take 5 minutes, it reached about half of the starting output.

At 1 hour into the run, however, it seemed every bit as bright as in the first 5 minutes. And I compared the CCT against the A2 at this point, and still could not see any difference.

At 2 hours, the beam was just noticeably less white than the A2, but still quite respectable.

At 2.5 hours, the beam was definitely down in CCT, but in no way displeasing or sickly. It was still a very useable beam, just not as bright and white.

Also, I have again revised my lumens estimate with some more ceiling bounce tests and other comparisons and thoughts. I now estimate that the MN15 in the M6 is putting out *200 lumens*. Mostly, I am revising it back upwards again because even at 2.5 hours, the beam was still easily brighter than the A2, which would mean it was at least 50 percent brighter than 75 lumens. But if it was 50 percent down from start, that would mean start was 225 lumens (!). That and the X-LOLA is only just barely noticeably dimmer than the TL Gen4 LA, which is about 275 lumens, which means about 30 percent less than that, which would mean about 200 lumens.

I'm still just guessing, but I feel better about the 200 lumens guess. I will edit my original post and post title to reflect the new information!


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## LED61

*Re: The SF M6 U-LOLA*

Wow!!! Jim, thank you very much for this.....why bother with the rechargeable deal when you can have this brightness for 2.5 hours ? I think your original advice to never underestimate the convenience of running the M6 on primaries takes on even more validity now. I imagine heat is negligible Jim?


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## js

*Re: The SF M6 U-LOLA*

LED61,

You're welcome! No problem. And, yes, heat was minimal from this setup. I imagine it is about a 10 watt lamp when driven by the stock M6 MB20 battery holder. And with the cooling fins on the head and top of the body, the light never gets anywhere close to "uncomfortably" warm. Quite manageable. I did not use a fan during the runtime test or anything. It was just sitting on a table. So this was probably a worst-case scenario in regards to heat buildup. So, nope, no heat problems at all.

On a more general note, I have been using this as my walk light for the past couple weeks, and I really love it. I think it has become my new favorite. The beam strikes the perfect balance point between too much light, and too little throw. If you let your eyes dark adapt, and then turn on this combo, it will not ruin your dark adaption. Even if you accidentally bring the hotspot right near your feet and look down, your eyes will recover in about 30 to 60 seconds. But, of course, you would avoid doing something like this (!) but the point is that it will sometimes happen, and with this beam, you're still OK.

Before this, I would most often use my SF A2 or my TL with Gen4 LA as my walk light, and the A2 incan was not potent enough to throw out far across a field, even with more sensitive dark adpation to help. The Gen4 LA, on the other hand, would hurt my dark adaption too much if I accidentally got the hotspot too close to me.

So the MN15 strikes the middle ground between these two, and works especially well when flashed now and again for far viewing, or for the spill light, with most of the walking done with the light turned off. Most of the time dark adapted eyes win out over massive lighting scenarios. At least they do for me. Turn on a massively powerful light and you only have the relatively small area of the beam (even if it throws), all else is nearly impenetrable darkness. But with dark adapted eyes, you have a lot larger area, and the stars and the sky, and it saves on runtime too! LOL!

I will, however, definitely say that the Gen4 TL, or the MN20 or MN21 or MagCharger (and so on) will THROW farther than the M6 X-LOLA. If you need to really see out to far distance, this is not the LA for you. It throws quite well in my opinion, just not _extremely_ well.


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## LED61

JS, I never got around to tell you that I bought another M6. It will be for my landkeeper at the lake house. It is the light he NEEDS to take care of things there. it was going to be run exclusively with the MN20 lamp on primaries (yep, batteries are on me), but now you´ve got a better solution with the MN15 and primaries!! he flashes the light at random spots where things are at about 100 feet maximum distance and the outfit will be `perfect for the job.


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## js

LED61,

Sounds good! Lucky landkeeper! Let us know how he likes this setup.


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## Flea Bag

Thanks for taking the time and trouble Jim! I'll stick with the MN20 in the M6 but it's nice to know that when extended runtime is needed, the MN15 can step in and provide quality output for a very very generous runtime.  Sigh... Another reason to buy another M6!


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## LED61

JS, do you think we are still experimeting lamp life with the MN15? I'm asking this because I just came accross Wquiles thread

http://candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=79756

and seems like Al threw in a pretty good warning against the MN15 on fears it might explode. I'm not sure if he really meant only the MN16 but mentioned the MN15 as well. He said he's had several lamps explode in turboheads I wonder if the MN15 was one of them.


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## bwaites

The MN16 is more likely to have problems on 3S2P battery packs than the MN15 is. The MN16 is running right on the edge on 3 123 cells, while the MN15 is slightly underdriven in comparison.

When you run the MN16 on 3 cells, due to current draw, the voltage at the lamp is about 6.7-6.8volts, and when you run it on the M6 configuration it is closer to 7.3-7.5, which is a substantial overdrive in comparison. 

In contrast, the MN15 is being driven at about 7.2 or so with 3 cells, and is a little underdriven at that voltage, so the slightly higher voltage of the M6 configuration is less problematical. 

Jim first mentioned this to me several weeks ago, and I've been running the MN15 for a while, I like it ALMOST as much as my M6-R driving the MN16. (If I recall correctly, the M6-R pack is designed to put out exactly 6.8 volts, ideal for the MN16, but underdriving the MN15.) 

Bill


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## wquiles

I can also vouch for Jim's point on the low heat issue. I have been running the N2 for a long while (I get about an hour on my modified 7.5V M6-R pack) and it is GREAT in that regard. Very low heat and long runtimes 

Will


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## js

LED61,

No worries on lamp life. It's not driven that hard. I would guess the MN15 in the M6 will last at least 25 hours, crystal clear. But you know, this setup is my primary walk light now, and that means over the next 6 months or so I will probably rack up that much runtime (or more). So we shall see.

Really, though, as Bill points out, it's a very mild overdrive AND we're starting with a lamp that is UNDERDRIVEN on a single stack of 123's. So, we're good.

And really, the MN16 would _probably_ survive as well, but that kind of overdrive is just too much to be practical. You really want to stay above 11 hours of life, and 15-20 is better, and 25-35 is best.

That's actually my worry about the MN61 driven with R123's in the stock MB20. It looks like that setup is too overdriven to be viable. The MN60 might be better. Or it might not. It might also be too overdriven.

Hotwire modders around CPF often like to talk about driving the 1185 at 11.1 volts and about how they are getting ten bizillion lumens out of it. Wow. Great. Now give it to an LEO for a shift and let him or her actually USE the stupid thing. What? No kidding? Gee, the lamp gave out after only 6 hours? Who would have guessed that would happen.

Yeah. OK. Moving on. The starting CCT (the "whiteness") of the MN15 on brand spanking new fresh from the package 123 cells is not up into the range that the higher strung mag mods are into. The 1111 on 6 cells or the 1185 on 9, for example, come in noticeably whiter, and thus more overdriven. Yet even the 1111 on 6 cells will last a good dozen hours or more.

And SureFire lamps are generally _under-rated_ in their hours of life.

So, I would be astonished if there were any problem with the life span of the MN15 in the M6. It's good to go in my opinion. I am not concerned in the least. But, as I said, I will be keeping track of how many sets of batteries I put my X-LOLA setup through, so we shall see.


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## LED61

OK Jim thanks I'll also order some MN15's and give it a try. And on the rechargeable deal we had going on the other thread I had also almost given up on the idea between the runtime, the prospect of the bats shutting off, charging the cells individually and the lamp life and all that stuff. I'd like to hear from Nugget to see how it went after a few hours with his setup. After I see how beautiful the light goes on the stock MN20 I can appreciate your original advice to run it stock, but, that MN15 will, as you put it, probably be much more economical and it is probably all some people NEED.


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## js

LED61,

Yeah. It's not necessarily the best for everyone. It will depend on your needs and preferences and on how well your dark adaption works and so on. But it's certainly worth giving it a try! The MN15 is only using just over 2 123's per hour, and giving 200 lumens for that. Most 2 123 lights run for an hour, but give about 100 lumens. So that's a gain. The MN20 is still not too expensive to run, either, though, depending on how long you can make a set of batteries last for you. And WHAT A BEAM!


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## batman

thanks js for the research, that's one more reason I need to buy an M-6! (creepy darth vador voice) i see you have constructed a new light sabre...


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## CQB

hey JS: just letting you know it's largely because of this very thread that I traded in my M4 for a M6 and outfitted it with the X-LOLA. I am very very pleased with its beam. Brightness is very adequate for my needs. Will be using this on shift with less guilt, thanks to the longer runtime.  Tks for the heads up in the first place!

CQB


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## js

batman and CQB,

Thanks for the posts and I'm glad this thread was of some interest to you! My own SF M6 with X-LOLA is continuing to serve me very well--so far so good. I will report more as more time passes but I expect everything to turn out as expected.


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## leukos

CQB said:


> I am very very pleased with its beam. Brightness is very adequate for my needs.


 
I have found that the MN15, N2, MN10, and P90 hit the sweet spot as far as lumens and throw for most of my outdoor uses.


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## fire-stick

So.. on a standard M6 what's the voltage of the lamp? I know it takes 6 batteries... It's not 18v right?


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## MikeF

9 volts nominal, the batteries are wired 3 serial in 2 parallel stacks.


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## LED61

7.2V for the MN20 and 6.8V for the MN21 are the working voltages under design. Nominal 9V lamps.


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## batman

I have purchased an M6 after reading this post and am also using the X-LOLA set up. 1 word - eeeexcellent


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## fire-stick

So why is the MN21 rated a lower voltage? Are all HOLA's rated a lower voltage?


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## LED61

The MN21 IS NOT rated at a lower voltage. It's operating voltage is less by design and because the 123 primaries have more voltage sag under the heavy load. It is made perfect to run on such a setup.


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## cy

nice info...


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## batman

I've had an M-6 a few weeks now and it's great no matter what LA im running in it to be honest. I really love running it on the Mn-15 after reading JS's thread though. 

My brother would agree that the 9p with P90 lamp assembly is fenomenal for aircraft maintenance.


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## cue003

Now all we need is a clickie for the M6 and we are set.


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## LED61

My landkeeper ran this setup briefly but he clearly told me it was not the powerful beam he needed to see long distances in flashes. He only flahes and so he went back to the MN20 but the setup ran great. I find he goes through a set of batteries every 3 weeks or so with the MN20 flashing every night.


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## cue003

LED61, how big is your land that he is flashing? Sounds like a very large space.

Curtis


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## LED61

It is, and totally dark. It is about three acres and there are sailboats, jetskis and other things around. I am down here in Central America. The ability to see far away minimizes risk for him and that is why he only flashes the light, so as not to give his position away. Keep in mind he is not using the HOLA just the LOLa MN20.


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## trailblazer

I'm planning on gettin an M6 soon and plan on trying the MN15. What I dont quite get though is that the MN15 is rated 125 lumens with the M3T and you are guesstimating 200 lumens in the M6. Is the difference in the extra current source ability of the extra battery stack thus less voltage drop = more lumens? Did Surefire design this bulb for the M3T anticipating the voltage drop? I think I've probably answered my own questions in any event how are your MN 15's holding up so far?
thanks
Tom


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## bwaites

trailblazer, the MN15 puts out more than 125 lumens in the M3T. Unlike most manufacturers who rate the lamp at turn on, using fresh cells, and then exaggerate that number, Surefire rates their lamps at midway through the run. 

The MN15 is slightly underdriven in the M3T, and puts out more light in the M6, when the voltage sag isn't as great.

Bill


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## seery

OK...truth be told...I'm VERY VERY tired at this point. Why you ask?

I've been jumping up and down with excitement ever since I tried the
MN15 in the M6. It's the absolute cat's behind.






As of last night's hike, I have just under 2 hours on the MN15 running
on the same set of cells. Very nice white beam with a very useful output.

My friend uses his M6 to track game and has found it a good light for
the purpose but not perfect. His complaints were run time and lack of
spill at closer distances. The solution is simple.

a) Add an FM24 diffuser.
b) Swap the MN20 for the MN15.

Both are on order for him and I'm certain he will be very pleased.

Thanks JS, bwaites, and CPF. Another great discovery.


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## LED61

IMHO, it is absolutely and by far the best solution for constant on in the M6.


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## LED61

I lent out my M6 to a friend last night with the MN15 lamp in. he was going to use it constant on for some work he had to do in the woods for over an hour......he was ever so impressed with the light using this "low output" lamp. Amazing, I thought I might as well tell the story and bump this thread to the top to let some of the folks out there interested know that most likely, it is really OK and great to use this lamp in the light like JS originally stated.


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## PLT

I just have this M6/MN15 set up and it is like what JS said "A2's bigger brother". You know how good and useful an A2 incan can be, and this set up is just its bigger brother with more lumens, more throw and longer runtimes (in a bigger package). I think that this is a great news for all M6 owners out there. Cheers to JS for sharing this information with all of us.


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## paulr

LED61 said:


> It is, and totally dark. It is about three acres and there are sailboats, jetskis and other things around. I am down here in Central America. The ability to see far away minimizes risk for him and that is why he only flashes the light, so as not to give his position away. Keep in mind he is not using the HOLA just the LOLa MN20.


Eh? Turning on that M6 even for an instant will give his position away. He needs night vision goggles, not a flashlight.


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## LED61

paulr said:


> Eh? Turning on that M6 even for an instant will give his position away. He needs night vision goggles, not a flashlight.


 
True, but that other alternative is so much more expensive!! and really it is difficult to follow someone if he only flashes. If he had night vision gogles he would become a more sought after target to steal his equipment and we would be defeating the purpose. Down here, we know if someone wants you bad enough they'll get to you. Best to keep a low profile. Oh well OT again so I'll stop it.


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## js

Wow!

Thanks everyone! I'm thrilled that others like this setup as much as I do!

My M6 is still setup with the MN15 and primaries and it's still going strong and I still love it. So far so good! I'll keep reporting the long term field testing of this setup as time goes by. I expect by summer to have at least 30 hours on the lamp, and we'll see then how things are. In the meantime, thanks again everyone, and enjoy the SF M6 X-LOLA!


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## Cribbage

Oh, man, my wallet is already aching, 'cause now I NEED an M-6 :laughing:


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## js

OK. So someone PM'd me with an excellent question: if you use the M6 body with the M3 head (smaller, non-turbo head) can you use the MN10 with all 6 123's installed in the MB20 battery magazine?

In a word, the answer, I think, is *yes*.

I'm reasonably sure that the MN10 is made with the exact same lamp as the MN15, just potted into a fixture with a shorter collar to filament length so that it is properly focused in the standard, non-turbo M3 head (which will fit onto the M6 body just fine).

The advantage of this setup would be a beam with more flood (but less throw) that would be better suited to close range, around the house and yard type use.


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## bwaites

I will add that I have had discussions with Size15's about the MN10 and MN15 and that they are the same lamp, just potted differently.

I have actually used the M3 head on my M6 in this manner, and it is pretty cool as a general use flashlight. (It looks funny, though!)

I've gone back to using it on my M3 body because I have rechargeable cells for it there.

Bill


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## OutdoorIdiot

Wow, I can't believe I haven't spotted this thread before!

Thanks for the information, js.

I've just ordered an mn15. I also checked out:

http://www.knivesandtools.com/de/help/flashlights-comparison.htm?dist=20m&flashlight1=20msfm3T.jpg&flashlight2=20msfm6.jpg

to get an idea what to expect compared to the MN20. I expect there will be even less difference than in those comparison shots, because (1) The mn15 is slightly overdriven in the M6, and (2) Then new MN20s (which is what I have) seem to be a bit less bright than the older ones, according to some beamshots from WQuiles in another thread.


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## batman

OutdoorIdiot said:


> Wow, I can't believe I haven't spotted this thread before!
> 
> Thanks for the information, js.
> 
> I've just ordered an mn15. I also checked out:
> 
> http://www.knivesandtools.com/de/help/flashlights-comparison.htm?dist=20m&flashlight1=20msfm3T.jpg&flashlight2=20msfm6.jpg
> 
> to get an idea what to expect compared to the MN20. I expect there will be even less difference than in those comparison shots, because (1) The mn15 is slightly overdriven in the M6, and (2) Then new MN20s (which is what I have) seem to be a bit less bright than the older ones, according to some beamshots from WQuiles in another thread.


 
You are correct. The older model MN20 was so powerfully driven that it was probably a bit too delicate for use in extreme conditions, hence the newer lamp is toned down a bit so its more robust. It's kind of like the new flight profile for the space shuttle which takes it more gently through the period of maximum dynamic pressure. It's a trade off.


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## LED61

You will notice (at least I did) a smaller beam but it will be brighter and whiter for longer. A lesser area will be illuminated.


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## DM51

I'm probably going to get jumped on from a great height here, but I'm afraid I can't see the point of this at all. The whole point of the M6 is that it is very bright. What on earth is the point of putting a low-power bulb in it? All you get is a clunker with a dim bulb. If runtime is the concern, what is wrong with carrying a smaller light and some spare cells?


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## LED61

DM51 said:


> I'm probably going to get jumped on from a great height here, but I'm afraid I can't see the point of this at all. The whole point of the M6 is that it is very bright. What on earth is the point of putting a low-power bulb in it? All you get is a clunker with a dim bulb. If runtime is the concern, what is wrong with carrying a smaller light and some spare cells?


 
No jump DM51, the thing is that the bulb is not dim. It is very bright and white, the only drawback is the diameter or elliptical area illuminated is smaller. As Jim has pointed out, the current draw rate is less than .5C, and you can reap the benefit of the whole stored capacity of your cells. Hence, it is very economical for its brightness, which might just be all you need. So basically this is another alternative to the M6 that just makes it all the more versatile. Go ahead and give it a try!!


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## DM51

Thanks LED61, very good reply. I hadn't really picked up fully on the economy and versatility benefits of this. Useful.


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## js

DM51 said:


> I'm probably going to get jumped on from a great height here, but I'm afraid I can't see the point of this at all. The whole point of the M6 is that it is very bright. What on earth is the point of putting a low-power bulb in it? All you get is a clunker with a dim bulb. If runtime is the concern, what is wrong with carrying a smaller light and some spare cells?



"The whole point of the M6 is that it is very bright. . . ."

Well, actually, I don't think that is the _whole_ point of the M6! For starters, it is more than just small and bright (with MN21); it is *rugged*. The shock isolated bezel is the best of its kind. You can drop the light (turned on) head first onto concrete and not break the filament.

Next, it is *ergonomical*. i.e., it is a joy to use and handle. It is most emphatically NOT a clunker. Even with a blown lamp and no possibility of lighting up, it's still a nice light to handle. What I'm saying is that if someone had never seen an M6 at all, never handled one, and got a chance to do so at a SHOT show with the stipulation that he or she not turn on the light, most people would still jump at the chance. I know I would have! It's not a clunker at all. It's significantly smaller than a 2D maglite, and not much larger than something like a PT Surge. The rear activated LOTC allows for an overhand grip, and allows you to easily activate the light in the dark, or when wearing gloves. Plus, it can be locked out for transport or carry in a pocket. You can actually walk around with an M6 stuck in a front or back pocket without too much discomfort. Granted, I wouldn't want to take a long hike this way, but still, the point is that while its not an EDC light, it's still pretty nicely portable. It's not a clunker.

"What on earth is the point of putting a low-power bulb in it? . . ."

Well, the point is RUNTIME. More than twice the runtime of the MN20, and more than seven times the runtime of the MN21. Also, the point is a flatter discharge curve of the 123's due to the lower draw rate.

"If runtime is the concern, what is wrong with carrying a smaller light and some spare cells?"

Which smaller light? Which method of carrying spare cells? If we're talking SureFire's, I'd say that it's about a tie between an M6 alone, or an A2 and a spares carrier. Or a 6P or E2e or etc. and a spares carrier. You'd have to carry at least four extra 123's to get significantly past the 2 hour mark in most cases, although two extra 123's and an E2e would get pretty close to 2.5 hours. The spares carrier also has room for an extra lamp of course, so two extra 123's in a small waterproof container and an E2e would be easier to carry than an M6.

So, there are definitely some scenarios here, I admit.

But . . .

At what cost? 80 lumens from an E2e or A2 for 2 or so hours. vs. 200 lumens from an M6/MN15 for 2.5 hours. And the M6/MN15 would hold siginificantly flatter discharge than an E2e--i.e. it will stay white and bright longer. It's essenitally flat for the first hour, and stays at a very pleasing CCT (whiteness).

What about LED lights, you might ask? Well, you'll notice that this is in the incan forum. Outdoors I am a confirmed incan guy. I much prefer incandescent light to LED light for outdoor use, especially in the woods and fields.

And, the other point, is *throw*. Despite the very reduced output relative to the MN21 HOLA, the M6/MN15 throws very, very well. It's a great beam. Not my favorite (that would be the MN20) but close.

It comes down to the question of how much light is enough. It comes down to individual preference and varying use patterns. For *me* the M6 with MN15 X-LOLA is a GREAT addition to the M6 package. To get 2.5 hours of good light from a torch the size of the M6, . . . well, that thrills me. My TigerLight with premium pack and Gen4 LA is somewhat brighter and throws somewhat farther, BUT only runs for 66 minutes. The 2.5 hours is great for certain situations.

Plus, if you already own an M6, we're only talking another $30 to get the MN15 LA. A lot cheaper than getting the KL6 LED head! And has great throw and true color rendition, --performs better in outdoor conditions, especially rain and fog.

So, that's the point. I hope you don't feel as if you have been jumped on from a great height, but I did want to give a try at answering your post point for point.


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## DM51

js, another great reply (along with LED61's). Thanks - I am now a convert to this idea.


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## js

DM51,

Thanks! I like the setup (obviously), but it's definitely not for everyone.

It's funny, though, over my flashaholic addiction . . . err . . . I mean _career_, I have gone backwards in light output. I used to really get into a whole lot of light. When I made the first Tiger85 800 lumen TigerLight mod, it was my favorite light for a while. Funny, too, I mentioned that I had used it out on a walk and SilverFox was like "it must have been a short walk." LOL! (It was). Then I prefered the Tiger11 570 lumen and/or M6 with MN21. Then as a TigerLight consultant I got to correct the focus/potting of TigerLights standard 275 lumen lamp and my work resulted in the specs for the Gen4 TL LA (link below in sig line) and I really got into that due to the 66 minutes of runtime and long throw. At about the same time, too, I fell in love with the MN20 LA and stopped using my MN21 except for testing of M6-R packs. Then finally, I stepped back even more to the MN15. The 200 lumens from this lamp aren't going to WOW! you or blow you away with sheer output the way a Mag85 or Tiger85 will, but it's definitely _enough_ light. In many cases, less is more, that's for sure. And the beam is more aesthetically pleasing than the Gen4, and more white (by a little).

But, it's certainly not for everyone. Sometimes you just need more . . . more output, more thow, or more flood (or whatever). Sometimes you just don't need much runtime, or want the smallest size for a given output.

So it is what it is, and for some, that's pretty cool. For others, its not what they need or want. It's all good!


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## leukos

js said:


> It's funny, though, over my flashaholic addiction . . . err . . . I mean _career_, I have gone backwards in light output. I used to really get into a whole lot of light.


 
I concur. About 100 incandescent lumens seems about right for most of my outdoor adventures. I'm also quite excited about Lumens Factory lamps for C and E series lights. 50 lumens on a 17670 for 110 minutes.


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## SunStar

I'll just verify (as others have) the positive aspects of the M6/MN15. This is a great set-up for extended walks in the woods or camping. I will also confirm that the M6/MN15 puts out close to 200 lumens based on comparisons with the M3/MN15 (primaries) and the M4/MN15 (17670's). The discharge is very flat and after running the MN20 and MN21 driving the voltage of primaries to slightly less than 3.0v, I've then re-installed the MN15 and still get that very bright, white beam.

If I were SF, I would be supplying 3 lamps with the M6. It is brighter than the M3T, easier on batteries than the M3T, has a flatter discharge than the M3T all provided in a package that is the same length as the M3T (although slightly more bulky).

Kudos to JS...


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## OutdoorIdiot

DM51 said:


> I'm probably going to get jumped on from a great height here, but I'm afraid I can't see the point of this at all. The whole point of the M6 is that it is very bright. What on earth is the point of putting a low-power bulb in it? All you get is a clunker with a dim bulb. If runtime is the concern, what is wrong with carrying a smaller light and some spare cells?


 
That sort of question did occur to me, too, before I ordered an MN15. After all, when I'm heading off into the wilderness and don't want to be carrying much weight, but still want to be able to see a long way in the dark, I take a Streamlight TL3 in addition to a small headtorch. And a TL3 with spare batts is, roughly speaking, half the size and weight of an M6.

I'm not yet sure how much actual use I'll get from an MN15 in an M6, or how it performs compared to a e.g. a TL3 (anyone who has both - have you compared them yet?), but it will be interesting to find out.

That doesn't change the fact that it's great to have another output option for the M6. On the occasions I pack an M6 for its huge output it's nice to know I can also make it last for 2.5 hours with less output should the situation end up requiring it. And one of the particularly great things about this new option, to me, is that it means there are now (nominal) "125", "250", "500" lumen bulbs - i.e. each one is roughly double the output of the last. That's very, very nice, and is in line with how we keep being told our eyes work. It sounds like the new MN20s probably won't be quite double the output of the MN15 in practice, but still, the numbers are nice!


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## js

SunStar,

WOW! Now that's some good info! I love it! You can run the MN21 down to not-so-great whiteness, switch to the MN15, and still have a pleasing beam despite the state of the 123's. Very, very cool. I wouldn't have thought to test that!

And thanks for your kind words. The interest in this setup has definitely surpassed my expectations. Apparently there are a lot of people out there who, like me, appreciate the runtime and flatter discharge curve, and who appreciate the advantages to be had in dialing back the total output for walks in the woods, camping, etc.


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## OutdoorIdiot

js, just a thought, given that some of the old MN20s were blowing up, presumably due to being driven a bit too hard(?):

How confident do you feel that an MN15 in an M6 is "robust"? I am particularly thinking of freezing temperatures, here, i.e. what might happen when an overdriven MN15 is first fired up from a very cold temperature. Is it cold where you have been testing yours?

I suppose this question also goes out to others who have been using it - have you been using it in cold or freezing temperatures? I tend to venture out even more in winter than I do in summer, so have an interest in asking this question!

Thanks.


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## LED61

Well, I can only speak of tropical use here but I bet JS has used it in cold weather!! Now, If you use a set of batteries which have been used even 5 minutes runtime on the MN21, you´ll still get a nice white beam but not the stunningly white that comes about from fresh bats. I´ve got Will Quiles M6-R pack regulated on 7.5V for the MN20 and the MN15 runs not as white and bright as on fresh primaries. So I´m guessing--maybe JS will correct me on this-- that the MN15 on fresh primaries goes at around 7.8V, plus it draws from two stacks. I don´t know but this MN15 beam of fresh primaries goes about as white as I´ve seen an incandescent for a long time. Has anyone used it with a beam difuser ? I wonder what this color and brightness would light up flood with it ?


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## js

OutdoorIdiot,

There's actually a lot to consider when it comes to lamp physics and failure modes of tungsten halogen lamps. We've discussed this a lot in Icebreaks "Race to failure" thread in this forum, and you can read that for further discussion, but I will sum up here:

OK. All the lamps in the SureFires and Tigerlights and MagCharger and SL-20X and etc. are lamps with a tungsten filament, molybdenum pins, so-called "hard" glass envelope (as opposed to quartz glass), and a noble gas fill gas with or without a trace amount of a halogen. The noble gasses are those in column VIII of the periodic table and are highly inert due to the presense of a completed outer shell of 8 electrons. Helium (which has 2 electrons, which is a full shell for 1S orbit), Neon, Argon, Krypton, Xenon, and Radon make up that column. Filling the envelope with one of these gases enabled a leap forward in incandescent technology because it allowed for the _suppression of vaporization of the tungsten filament_. In a pure vacuum the hot tungsten filament spits out tungsten atoms left and right, which end up coating the inside of the glass envelope, darkening it and reducing the output significantly, ESPECIALLY at the highest possible temperatures. Turn the vacuum into a noble gas like Argon or Krypton or Xenon (Radon is radioactive and is thus a bad choice!) and the pressure of the gas suppresses vaporization (like a pressure cooker raises the boiling point of water). The heavier the atom, the better this works for the same pressure.

OK. So far so good, BUT, this doesn't stop the vaporization; it just slows it down. Enter the HALOGEN CYCLE! Really, a freaking brilliant idea! I read about the guy who pioneered it, but can't remember his name. Anyhow, if you add a little bit of a halogen to the fill gas something wonderful happens. A "halogen" is an element from column VII of the periodic table, such as Fluorine, Chlorine, Bromine, Iodine, or Astatine. Fluorine can not at present be used due to its highly corrosive nature--it attacks the support wires at room temperature and corrodes them. (Too bad, though--if it could be used it would enable an almost endlessly long-lived filament). And I have never heard of Chlorine being used (probably for the same reason). From what I have heard, it's either Bromine or Iodine. (I have no clue about Astatine!).

Anyway, when you add the right amount of some Bromine or Iodine, to the right fill gas at the right pressure in the right size envelope, then something very wonderful happens. The Halogen atoms chemically grab onto the tungsten atoms which have adhered to the glass envelope and remove them from it--thus cleaning the glass. Then, when they wander close to the hot filament, the process reverses and they redeposit the tungsten back onto the filament. Neat, eh? Only small problem is that they don't put it back in the same place it came from, and the thin spots tend to get thinner and the thick spots thicker, until POOF!, you blow your filament at turn on. (Fluorine, as mentioned, would be more egalitarian in this way and would evenly re-distribute the wealth--but, alas, it's too extremist to be utilized.  )

So, right, a fill gas is a mixture of gasses like Argon, Krypton, Xenon, (and I think sometimes Nitrogen), and of a bit of gasses like Bromine or Iodine. The exact mixutre of a companies fill gas is a somewhat guarded secret, as are the exact equations and methods behind arriving at the receipe for said fill gas. Besides the exact mixture, you also have the volume (and even shape) of the envelope, filament geometry, envelope material, pin geometry, and (very important) the *pressure* of the fill gas.

There are a number of trade offs to be made when designing lamps, even if cost is no object. For example, if you up the pressure, you up the efficiency (speaking generally). But, if you up the pressure to the highest levels, you can't have enough of a halogen to balance the halogen cycle because it will start to attack the support pins. SureFire lamps are made so that the halogen cycle just barely doesn't compensate for deposition, and thus the lamps WILL blacken towards the end of their lifespan. However, in compensation for that, they are very efficient due to a higher pressure (and the use of xenon instead of Argon or Krypton).

Now, after that long digression, I will try to answer your question! First of all, as long as no actual water droplets get onto the envelope, and as long as we're not talking direct extreme high velocity cold air exposure, THE COLDER THE BETTER as far as lamp robustness is concerned. In fact, if the air surrounding a lamp starts to get too hot, it raises the internal temperature, including the temperature of the glass envelope. If that goes too far, the glass softens, and POW! the lamp explodes. Not fun. The rule of thumb is that anything below 40 or 50 watts is OK with just regular convective cooling. More than that and you have to start forcing the convection with fans. (Or shorten the runtime! e.g. the USL and "The Torch" and so on = 100 watt halogen lamps, but not run for very long.)

So, the Winter cold will only help with the possibility of an explosion. And, for the record, yes, I have used my M6/MN15 in very cold weather. So cold, in fact, that I got a little bit of condensation on the inside of my lens.  LOL! It was for the best, though. Now it's not _perfect_ anymore. It was a replacement for one in which I actually did explode an MN20. That made a friggin mess of the inside I can tell you.

Now, overdrive does increase the temperature which does increase the pressure (which increases efficiency a bit). Yes. But almost always, if everything else is Kosher (i.e. no weakness or fracture in the glass, no finger oil on the glass, etc.) then this will only shorten the life of the lamp. And when it does fail, it will just flash and never turn on again. And if you look, you will see where the filament blew and often a ball of once molten tungsten at the end of one, the other, or both sides:







This was a 62138 100 watt halgoen lamp that I blew with one of the USL packs. It just went FLASH! then nothing.

This is what _usually_ happens. Also, the difference between the pressure of an overdriven and an underdriven lamp isn't that much of a difference. The envelope already has to withstand a good amount of pressure even under normal circumstances. So if there is a flaw or stress or finger oil (bad, bad,bad) then it will blow up whether or not you overdrive it.

Certainly, though, overdriving doesn't help matters! LOL! But, almost all of the time, you can push the lamp right to the point of melting the filament and it won't blow up.

With the MN15, we are in very safe territory by all counts. We are not pushing the lamp very hard, and the size of the envelope vs. the pressure and power parameters are all well and good.

The old MN20, on the other hand, was another story. I estimate that bad boy to be a 19 watt lamp (more or less). But look at the size of the envelope! Small, small, small! The MN15 has *the same size envelope* as the MN20 even though it is like half the power or something!

Honestly, what I expected SureFire to do with the MN20 redesign was to keep the filament geometry exactly the same, but just enlarge the envelope a little bit and maybe mess with the fill gas or something. But instead, they added two turns to the filament winding, essentially lowering both the CCT and the power and output slightly. Plus, I bet they increased the thickeness of the envelope a little bit.

So, the old MN20's were blowing up due to too high a pressure and too small an envelope, and not so much due to being overdriven. CPFers routinely go way farther in the overdrive department with the Welch Allyn Mag Mods without experiencing as many explosions. Although, the issue is complicated by the PR-base potting done by Carley, and by inappropriate handling of the lamps by novice hotwire guys. To compare apples to apples, we could talk about my TigerLight mods, which use ring-potted lamps (very similar to the SF LA's) and not WA Carely PR-base potted lamps (where one lead must be bent backwards). The Tiger11's and Tiger85's are both driven about two to three times as hard as the old MN20's were driven. (11 or 12 hours of life vs. 35 hours). But as far as I know, none of the production ring-potted WA1111 or WA1185 have ever exploded despite the high level of overdrive. Many people have insta-flashed their Tiger85's, but so far, I know of no one who has exploded one of the production ring-potted lamps. Early on, before I refined the potting process, there was one explosion and one envelope failure, but since then, nada.

Lamp failure is a complicated thing, though, and it's hard to talk completely and authoritatively about it and to interpret something like the rash of old MN20 explosions. But I believe that there was a combination of a flaw in the manufacturing process which tended to produce flaws in the envelopes, together with the very high pressure inside the MN20. I know of no other lamp that has a higher power to volume ratio than the old MN20. For that matter, the new MN20 is still probably the reigning champion of specific power in xenon lamps. Normally lamps that powerful have envelopes the size of the MN21, or TigerLight LA or SL-35X LA. More than twice the volume! Take a look at an SL-35X LA or TL LA lamp and you will see what I mean, and those are 20 watt and 12 watt lamps respectively.

The MN15 is way less power in the same size and does not have a track record of explosions, and it is not being overdriven very much at all. So, I think we are very safe. Still, long term testing is still underway.

But, in short, cold weather is no problem! I took mine out in about 0 F night time weather, (with wind) and other than the slight bit of condensation which happened around the edge of the lens (which left a slight deposit afterwards), there were no problems. And I take mine out in cold weather all the time, although not usually 0 F weather.

Sorry if this post was over-long, but I hope it was helpful. (note that the picture isn't available right now as I post this due to my server being down or something).


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## wquiles

js said:


> .
> (snip)
> .
> Sorry if this post was over-long, but I hope it was helpful.



As always, great answer Jim - very helpful indeed :rock: 

Will


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## LED61

+1 I learned tons as usual thanks so much Jim.


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## DM51

Jim, that was a great post - hugely informative. I have learned a lot from it that I didn't know before - you explained it all very clearly indeed.


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## SunStar

-JS-

Thanks for the education. Some of your discussion took me back to my Chem-E reaction engineering courses. I only wish the professors were as proficient in their explanation... (and it was free too!!:laughing

-SunStar-


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## seery

THANKS for the great explanation, always very informative. :goodjob: 

I've taken my M6 X-LOLA out several times for night walks when temps were
around zero w/o windchill and (knock...knock) have not yet experienced any
internal moisture issues.

Is it just a matter of time before it happens or were there other factors involved
that caused this to happen on your M6?

Is there anything we can do, as a general rule, to help prevent this from happening?

Last week while poking holes in the ice, I submerged the M6 under the ice/water for
about 30 seconds with no ill effects that I can tell.

Again Thanks Jim.


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## OutdoorIdiot

Hello js,

Thanks for the obvious time and consideration that went into that answer! You've obviously played with and/or researched so many bulbs that you have a very good feel for how much this MN15 is being pushed in this application, so your confidence is rubbing off on me! Mind you, I'm such a dogged empiricist that the fact that you have taken it out in -17 Celsius is the bit that reassures me the most.

I was originally thinking in more simplistic terms of thermal shock, as presumably the MN15 is going to be getting hotter faster than design. But as you suggest, thermal shock was probably not the issue with the old MN20s exploding - in fact now that I think about it, I seem to remember the reports on CPF of exploding ones mentioned that it happened a few minutes into runtime, which coincides with your theory.

Anyway, thanks for putting my mind at rest!


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## js

Everyone,

Thanks for your kind words!

seery,

If you get any volume of air cold enough, the ability of the air to hold moisture will fall below the actual moisture in the air, and at that point you get condensation. So, you either keep the air warm, or ensure that the air has very little moisture in it to begin with. If you're really, really worried about it, you purge with dry Nitrogen! The Fujinon waterproof binoculars are made this way, IIRC.

Anyway, it really isn't an issue at all. There was a little bit of condensation around the edges--the IR through the center was keeping the glass too hot for any condensation to occur near there. But even at its worst it was in no way impairing my beam. It was just a little tiny bit foggy around the rim of the lens for a while. This went away when the light warmed back up once I came inside. But the moisture which condensed there left a barely noticeable residue of minerals or something--not sure. And when I say "barely noticeable" I mean it. I can only see it if I turn on the light and look obtusely at the lens. It's a total non-issue. It's just that before that, the head was absolutely perfect. No spec of dust, no hair, nothing. It was as clean and perfect a flashlight lens as I have ever seen.

So I noticed when it fell off from that level of perfection. But honestly, it was for the best. Plus, that hadn't happened before on just normally cold winter weather walks. It didn't happen at 10-30 F, for example. But that particular night was freaking COLD!

Around here, we all tend to get too attached to the aesthetic perfection of our lights. Sometimes even to the point of making them shelf queens; even to the point of not using them when we otherwise might want or need to.

Or worse, someone will try to open up his SureFire bezel to try to remove a hair or spec of dust, and go from bad to worse, damaging the light, or mucking up the lens or something.

I know it's hard to treat a $400 light as if it were a tool of sheer functionality and practicality, rough and ready and tough and durable. Able to take abuse and keep on working. But, that's what the M6 is! Granted, I don't intentionally scratch my light or try to "break it in" by going above and beyond my normal use and needs. I think that's going too far the other way. But, I do try to make myself use my lights, even my perfect ones, and if they get scratched, or if the lens gets a wee bit of condensation on it, so be it! It's par for the course. And no one else but me would probably realize that the lens of my M6 head wasn't perfect anyway.

As for submerging the light in ice water, no, I don't think that's a no-no. The lens is optically coated pyrex glass! That's the stuff that will take the direct flame from a bunsen burner, isn't it? I think you're safe as long as you don't submerge just half the lens and leave it running that way. Just make sure not to put such differential stress across a definite area. It probably wouldn't take that. But, a quick change from hot to cold over all or part of the lens will be fine. I mean, I wouldn't do it just for kicks, but if I actually needed to run my M6 under ice water, I'd do it.

Plus, hey, if it does crack, SF would probably warrantee it. That's what the M6 is. A special operations light for extreme use. It's expensive for a reason. If it fails, take advantage of the SF warrantee! "If it breaks, we fix it." Isn't that what they say? (excepting lamps and switches wearing out with time and use, of course).


----------



## Schnotts

Now I want an M6


----------



## wmugrad28

Hi js,



> HOLA: MN21. 630 lumens, 20 minutes.
> LOLA: MN20. 400 lumens, 1 hour.
> X-LOLA: MN15. 200 lumens, 2.5 hours.


 
Is the 400 lumens estimate for the LOLA using the _new _MN20 lamp? If not, do you have an estimate for the new number of lumens?


----------



## zehnmm

First, thanks especially to JS and others for the informative posts about the M6+MN15 solution. 

Question: after searching and reading the posts regarding AW's new protected R123A's, has anybody tried this in the 3s2p MB20 holder on the 3 lamps (MN20, MN21, and MN15?) Runtimes? Thoughts?

I apologize if this has already been addressed in other posts and I did not search enough.

Thanks!


----------



## LED61

Do not try this setup. The added voltage of the three in series R123's will blow the 9V lamps for certain. There is a chance however this setup may work with the MN60 and MN61 12V lamps. Nothing is for sure yet and can not be recommended. I imagine JS will hop in any minute with more info but this is in another thread.


----------



## zehnmm

LED61: Thanks for the info. You know, to be perfectly honest, I had forgotten about the nominal 9V of 3x CR123's versus something like 10.8 - 12.0 for 3xRCR123's. 

Do you think 2 dummies could be used in the holder so that you have 2x RCR123's in each of the 2 series in parallel?

Thanks!


----------



## LED61

Hmm, I think JS is better qualified for this question BUT, I will venture to say that you can do it only on the lower current draw lamps or possibly only the MN15. The voltage sounds fine provided you can find the correct slots for the dummies in the MB20 but the current draw will be too high for only two cells in series if you use the MN20 or MN21. Plus, you will not have the extended runtime, which is the real beauty of the X-LOLA on primaries.


----------



## zehnmm

Thanks LED61!


----------



## cnjl3

JS, 

Just wanted to say ‘Thanks’ for all your info on a great new bulb. 
*The MN15 kicks butt!* 
Prior to the MN15 I was only using my M6 during hunting season with the LOLA. 
I pretty much stayed away from the HOLA due to the 20min run limit. 
Hunting season ended first weekend in Jan 2007 and during the last month of hunting season I used the MN15 on mostly every trip and I really, really like the beam. 
Yeah, it doesn’t have the output of the LOLA but it is more than enough white light for me. Plus, now instead of putting my M6 away in my gun safe for next years hunting season it sits next to my Surefire A2 at the ready for night time explorations.


----------



## js

wmugrad28,

I do have both new and old MN20's and I have done a very little bit of testing with the new MN20, but I am not prepared to say much at this point regarding the comparison of old to new, other than that the new is a lower CCT and lower output, *BUT NOT BY MUCH*. There will be more on this from me later, and I will post a link in this thread if you like. But right now, that's all I will say.

zehnmn,

As LED61 points out, using R123A's in place of primary 123A's will blow the MN21, MN20, and MN15 lamps, whose voltages, respectively, are about 6.8, 7.5, 7.6.

Adding two dummy cells would definitely be OK with the MN20 or MN15, but the current draw of the MN21 is too much for only two stacks of R123's (2.5 amps per stack!)

And in all cases, we are talking about using Li-ion cells. Obviously, AW protected cells would be best for safety's sake, but we (meaning SilverFox) are still testing them. Hold tight.

Check out this thread: another M6-R with MN61 although be advised right now that I am more in favor of the MN60 instead of the MN61. But I say this in the thread, as you will see.

cnjl3,

Nice! Thanks for posting that! It's a great example of my own assessment of the situation. The MN15 isn't nearly as much light as the MN21 or MN20, but it's nice and white, and often, it's very much _enough_ light to do the job and do the job well. Add to that the 2.5 hour runtime, and convenience of primaries, and a beautiful, lovely beam, and the ruggedness and ergonomics of the M6, and you've got yerself a winning combination. (In my opinion).


----------



## seery

The M6-X has to be hands down the most rugged and versatile light I've
ever had the pleasure of owning/using.

Wish there were a CPF medal of honor we could award you for sharing with
us your M6-X creation.

OK beer is on me at SHOT 2008. Oops did I just say that out loud!!   

Beacuse my M6's are used nearly every day, the SF 123 cells are bought in
full 400 count cases. Thanks to the M6-X, the past few months these cases
seem to dissapear at a much slower rate.

Just lately sold the last of my SF 9N's I've had for 12-13+ years. Only reason
was I came to hate rechargeables in my "go to" lights.

Seems every time I'd _*"go to"*_ they'd _*"go dead"!!!*_



js said:


> The MN15 isn't nearly as much light as the MN21 or MN20, but it's nice and white, and often, it's very much _enough_ light to do the job and do the job well. Add to that the 2.5 hour runtime, and convenience of primaries, and a beautiful, lovely beam, and the ruggedness and ergonomics of the M6, and you've got yerself a winning combination. (In my opinion).


----------



## zehnmm

JS: Thanks for sharing this absolutely fascinating information. I had somehow or another missed the other posts and appreciate the opportunity to read them.

For me, while I do not have an M6, this whole topic is intoxicating. JS: I am especially fascinated by a comment that I believe you made in one of your posts about the 6xCR123's running the MN15 for something like 2 1/2 hours. As I recall, the comments included something like about not having to change batteries as often with this setup when you get 2 1/2 hrs. runtime. (If I have misunderstood your point, I most certainly apologize.) Having said that, I got to thinking some more about this. I find the following example comparison helps to amplify JS's comments about the 6 x123's. 
In the comparison, I compare my WE 100x (running 12V bulb, 300 bulb lumens, 195 est. torch lumens) and the M6+MN15+6x123's. 

.
...............Est........................................Battery...Battery
.............Torch....Hrs......Lumen...Battery.. Cost......Cost/
Light.....Lumens..Runtime.. Hours..Cost...... Per Hr... Lum. Hr.

M6 ........200....... 2.50...500.0....$6.60....$2.64....$0.01
WE100x...195........0.83...162.5....$4.40....$5.28... $0.03

In this comparison, I assumed that one would use Battery Station 123's that you can get for $1.10 each from Lighthound in quantities of 10 or more. (If SFs are assumed the costs change accordingly....) Moreover, I introduce what I am labeling "lumen hours" --- which is simply the est. torch lumens times the runtime. In other words, it is an artificial quantification that takes into account how long two similarly bright bulbs will run. The M6 battery cost is more. But now, if you compute the battery cost per hour, the M6 costs exactly one-half that of the WE 100x for close to the same torch output. Moreover, the M6, using the MN15 bulb, runs about 3 times longer. When the battery cost per "lumen hour" is computed, the M6 solution is one-third the cost., which, in this case, factors in the 3x runtime differential.

Hence:
1. At first glance an expensive M6 light ($350 - $370) with 6 batteries appears to be an unworthy choice.
2. But when compared to one example of another choice (WE 100X,cost of $90), the longer runtime for the same output really starts to shine. The total cost of ownership over several years in comparing the M6 with another choice begins to narrow quite a bit. 
3. Plus, you get a great light.
4. Additionally, there are some re-chargeable options that have been discussed.

Please do not get me wrong about the Wolf-Eyes light. I think it is an absolutely great light. I really like mine and when hunting, tracking game, etc., it is in my hand. Throws great. All I am doing is extolling the virtues of the M6 option that JS and others have described.

The big problem with all this is now I have to scrounge some money up and buy an M6!!! Then I have to buy some more lamps, perhaps another FM battery holder (to go with the 3 that I already have of his,) perhaps get his socket for the M6, and who knows what else.

Oh, the pitfalls of being a CPF-er! Oh, the humanity!

Thanks to you all.

Regards.


----------



## js

seery,

WOW! Thanks so much! That's high praise indeed!

I agree about the rechargeables thing. Mostly in regards to NiMH, but not exclusively. There's something really cool about being able to carry 6 or 12 extra 123's with you, knowing you have access to another 2.5 or 5 hours of light. The SF Spares Carrier would also house another MN15, should the one in your light burn out. I've said it before and I'll say it again: I love rechargeable lights (such as my TigerLight) and I understand the advantages to them, but if it ever REALLY mattered, I'd chose my SF M6 loaded with primaries, MN15 or MN20, and extra batteries.

zehnmm,

Fascinating! I love the comparison. I don't know too much about the WE light you compare to, though, but I get your point, and yes, it was the same one I was making before about the greater efficiency, greater energy extraction from the 123's when drawing out at this slower rate (as opposed to 1 hr or 20 min runtime rate).


----------



## kaseri

After reading this thread I decided to order my own MN15 lamp. I love my M6 but now I'm thinking that I will love it even more.


----------



## kaseri

UPDATE...

My MN15 lamp arrived & it is working perfectly! I love the output / runtime of the M6 now. This is exactly what I have been hoping for since I first bought my M6. Guilt free lumens for all!

Thanks for the great find JS !


----------



## Silversurfer

This thread is very compelling. I just purchased an M6 to use with an MN15.

It should be here soon...


----------



## sierracharlie

I bought one off eBay and got the MN15 bulb from Surefire. Been playing with it for 24 hours and taking it camping this weekend. This combination makes me reevaluate my interest in LED lights. My other incandescent lights are the A2 (based on the js writeup here) and M3. But this M6 setup is one of the best ideas I have seen anywhere. Thanks. sc


----------



## js

kaseri and sierracharlie,

I'm thrilled that you guys also like the SF M6 w/ X-LOLA! And I appreciate you both posting about your positive impressions and experiences.

Silversurfer,

I hope you like your M6, with and without the MN15 X-LOLA! Keep us informed!


----------



## MikeF

This may be a little OT, and I appologise, but I just want to say how much I like my M6, no matter which batteries, and which Lamp Assembly. It is an incredible tool, and even with dead batteries it is impressive. OK OT over, I just needed to say something positive and get away from the nonesense elsewhere. Venting over!
:lolsign:


----------



## sierracharlie

Interim report: Two nights camping. Total usage over an hour. But after this time, it looks like I have just dropped in new batteries. This set up is a little more bulky and more expensive than most people want or need, but next even to a good LED light, it is just absolutely dominant in the outdoors.


----------



## LED61

Hmm this is totally odd. I get over two hours and the numbers are there also. I suggest doing another test run the setup goes for over two hours. It is actually one of the most economical ways to get that many lumens for longer out of an incandescent on primaries that is.


----------



## js

LED61, I think sierracharlie is saying that he used the light for over an hour _and it still looked like he was running on fresh batteries_, not that he needed to replace the cells after an hour.

sc, is that right?


----------



## adamr999

This website is the devil. I come here to read about new products without the intention of purchase, but I always do. Now thanks to this post I will have to buy a M6.
:goodjob:


----------



## mdocod

the X-LOLA setup looks to be a great way to get the most out of CR123 primaries.

drain rate is about 0.55A on each cell. so when using good cells, capacity should be as high as about 1.6AH. Wouldn't surprise me if the X-LOLA would run for 3 hours.

with good quality cells, after voltage sag,, 2.7V per cell, instead of the usual 1-1.2A drain that these cells would experience dipping the voltage to ~2.5V.

I come up with the following:
MN15 in "normal" setup (M3T): ~8.3W, 200 B-Lu ~3275K, ~130 Torch lumen
MN15 in M6 "X LOLA" setup: ~9.2W, 250B-Lu ~3350K, ~160 Torch Lumen
bulb life is cut approximately in half. So, 25 hours, assuming that SFs is still rating these "50 hour" bulbs.. In my experience, a decently white 160 torch lumens is plenty for 90% of outdoors activities.

Nice!

this sound bout right to the bulb experts?


----------



## LED61

js said:


> LED61, I think sierracharlie is saying that he used the light for over an hour _and it still looked like he was running on fresh batteries_, not that he needed to replace the cells after an hour.
> 
> sc, is that right?


 
Ah JS, I now get the picture fully. I think you are correct and my apologies, as I now think I am totally wrong in my apprecciation of SC's post. OK!! + 1 I'm so glad.


----------



## js

mdocod said:


> the X-LOLA setup looks to be a great way to get the most out of CR123 primaries.
> 
> drain rate is about 0.55A on each cell. so when using good cells, capacity should be as high as about 1.6AH. Wouldn't surprise me if the X-LOLA would run for 3 hours.
> 
> with good quality cells, after voltage sag,, 2.7V per cell, instead of the usual 1-1.2A drain that these cells would experience dipping the voltage to ~2.5V.
> 
> I come up with the following:
> MN15 in "normal" setup (M3T): ~8.3W, 200 B-Lu ~3275K, ~130 Torch lumen
> MN15 in M6 "X LOLA" setup: ~9.2W, 250B-Lu ~3350K, ~160 Torch Lumen
> bulb life is cut approximately in half. So, 25 hours, assuming that SFs is still rating these "50 hour" bulbs.. In my experience, a decently white 160 torch lumens is plenty for 90% of outdoors activities.
> 
> Nice!
> 
> this sound bout right to the bulb experts?



mdocod,

I estimated 200 torch lumens by comparing with the SF A2 (75 lumens) and the TL Gen4 LA (275 lumens); my reasoning is somewhere in one of the posts in this thread, and while 3 hours of runtime would have been way cool, I only got 2.5 hours of runtime to 50 percent of starting output.

As for lamp life, the CCT of the MN15 in the M6 is just about the same as the CCT of the A2 lamp, which is 3330 K (as you predicted!). This should equate to about 35 hours of life, I would think, but it could be less. Certainly at least 25 hours in my opinion.


----------



## Silversurfer

Received the MN15 bulb today.

Gonna try it out when the sun goes down...

Initial Observations :

Cuts right through ambient urban light...

Gonna try using the light in the next few nights to follow my vizlas when I let them run free in the park late at night...

Note to self: Be careful not to blind vizslas.


----------



## mdocod

I'm guessing the reason that you aren't getting 3 hours, is that when you combine that many cells, the likelihood of having an under-performer that ruins it for the whole bunch is pretty high. There's also a lot of variation in capacity from one brand of cell to the next at a ~0.55A load. Sanyos deliver about 1.7AH at this rate, while Titanium cells are delivering like 1.3AH, BS cells about 1.45AH, SF cells about 1.55AH... So anyone using this configuration would do themselves a great favor by looking at the results of SilverFox's 123 shootout. The 0.5A comparison is really close to the way the cell would be used in this setup. So even if a cell costed $1.50 instead of $1.00, in some cases, it might makeup for the cost difference in runtime.

200 lumen may be pretty accurate... the calculations used for rerating this stuff from "a-far" are really only good for ballpark figures. I can adjust a possible variable, and come up with 135 and 180 T-Lumens just as easily. (different exponent in formula, different initial bulb specs, etc) It's guesswork backed up with formulas that keep things "in-line."


----------



## js

mdocod,

I've spent a lot of time looking at all of SilverFox's shootouts, and talking with him on the phone. My tests were done using fresh Duracell Ultra 123A cells. As I understand it, these are the best 123 cells made, to the highest quality and consistency, with the best performance. I paid over $2 each for them, IIRC.

So, I don't think that I'm not getting 3 hours for the reasons you mention. In fact, my back of the envelope estimate was *2 hours*, so 2.5 hours was actually better than I had expected.


----------



## sierracharlie

What I said was:

"But after this time, it looks like I have just dropped in new batteries."

What I meant was:

"But after this time, it continues to run like the batteries are still new."

Sorry for the confusion. 

That is, I can tell no appreciable reduction in the light after an hour. Had I been using either of the stock bulbs, I would need to change batteries after a weekend in the woods. The MN15 setup is till going strong. This setup might be eating up the bulb instead of the battteries, but it will take a lot of run time to figure that out and I may not care by then.

I repeat, this is the coolest, simplest, most beneficial SF mod I have ever seen. SF should sell this as an option on the light, if the bulb lasts up to their standards. 

sc


----------



## batman

js, 


how do you feel about the new lumens factory lamp assemblies for the M3T, M3, and M4? Would any of them run in the M6? There is a thread here somewhere recently with all the technical information on them such as amps,volts, etc, and other science facts.


----------



## mdocod

The M3T lamps will probably work without a hitch. You'll definitely have more options to play with... Your inquiry is proof to LF that there is interest in M6 lamps. I'm trying to convince them that a range of 13V M series lamps would be big sellers. Like, for use in the M6 on 6 RCR123s. or in a 3x18650 leef, or 3x18500 leefbody, or 3x17670 custom fitted into an M6, or 6x17500 in an M6 without the need for a regulator. (3 series, 2 P), or 3x17670 in an M4+2 extenders, lol... you get the idea.


----------



## LED61

I would love to discuss this but I really think we should start another thread for it. It is likely to drag on very far off topic.


----------



## js

batman,

I'm actually probably going to get my hands on some very soon! But right now, regretably, I am totally ignorant regarding these lamps.  They sound wicked cool, though. I love that they give us all more options, especailly the Li-ion use option. Way cool. Just as long as everyone understand the dangers of Li-ion and uses them properly. When I get my hands on some, I may post about them in this thread, or in another thread, whichever is most appropriate. I'm slow to get new stuff, though, so it may not happen right away.

mdocod,

YES! PLEASE tell them to make those lamps! Maybe you could post to the another M6-R with MN61 thread about this as well? No problem with discussion of it, here though, but LED61 is right that it is better suited to this other thread. Either way (or both) is fine.


----------



## tussery

Just thought I would add this I was playing with my M6 tonight and put fresh cells in it and fired it up with the MN15 and toasted the bulb. So be careful with the MN15 and fresh cells.


----------



## gromit

tussery said:


> Just thought I would add this I was playing with my M6 tonight and put fresh cells in it and fired it up with the MN15 and toasted the bulb. So be careful with the MN15 and fresh cells.



What brand cells?


----------



## js

tussery said:


> Just thought I would add this I was playing with my M6 tonight and put fresh cells in it and fired it up with the MN15 and toasted the bulb. So be careful with the MN15 and fresh cells.



This isn't the fault of the setup. The MN15 isn't driven _anywhere near hard enough to instaflash_. You'd have to crank up the voltage significantly higher than what the MB20 provides to start risking instaflash _due to the setup itself_. That is, on a regular, statistically significant basis.

That said, any setup can instaflash no matter how underdriven. When a lamp dies, it dies at startup.

So, if your MN15 was quite new, get SureFire to warrantee it. If it was fairly well used, then it was just its time. If in between, that sucks, and should be noted for the record so we can keep track of it.

But, honestly, I am quite familiar with highly overdriven lamps, and their CCT (i.e. "whiteness") and this setup ain't anywhere near the instaflash territory. We are pushing it harder in this configuration, but it is somewhat underdriven in the standard setup (with just a single stack of 123's), and the voltage isn't much higher in any case.

Sorry this happened. Definitely look into getting a replacement if it was a fairly new lamp.


----------



## KeyGrip

Are there any other SF/LA "X-Lola" combinations out there? I like the concept, but don't have the cash to get the M6. I hope this isn't too OT, but it seemed like the right thread to ask.


----------



## js

KeyGrip,

There is a low output LA for the E2e that runs for 2.5 hours and is nice and white. MN02, IIRC.


----------



## LED61

Jim, guys, I have some sad news to report. My MN15 was working fine and dandy when all of a sudden I noticed a fast decay in output. My immediate thought was that the batteries were going caput, but no. Instead I found my X-LOLA smoked inside the turbohead. The lamp was bought new and had about 7 or 8 hours in it. I've included a lousy pic of the bulb and sorry its really bad I have a real hard time getting sharp focused closeups, but, it illustrates more or less how the bulb is inside. This is more or less how Wquiles 7.5V regulated pack left the MN21 after about 5 hours runtime in it.

I'll certainly use my other MN15 and will watch what happens as use goes by. BTW, these were not fresh 123's, they were approx midlife I estimate.


----------



## js

LED61,

Wow. That's no fun! Sorry this happened to you.

Given the color of the bulb, it's apparent that the envelope was compromised and allowed oxygen to enter. This is very rare that it happens this way, after working fine for a number of hours. Usually, it happens within the first half hour of running.

Overdriving lamps does slightly increase such events due to the higher operating pressure.

However, note that if we were really overdriving the MN15 hard, what we'd start seeing is a lot of people instaflashing their lamps at turn on. That is, you grab your M6 with X-LOLA, turn on, get a very brief flash of light, then . . . nothing. Dead. Nada.

If we start seeing some more of that, we'll need to re-evaluate the practicality of this setup.

For now, though, I'd say that what we are seeing is just life in the incan-big-city. Stuff like this happens in the best of cases, unfortunately.  Sorry to hear about it. And thanks for posting the picture!


----------



## LED61

Jim, totally agree with you. The smoking inside is different than that of the MN21 at 7.5 volts. The MN21 was a progressive event getting worse and worse from severe overdrive ? But this happenned all in about 30 seconds, and the dark inside is a lot more even, unlike the MN21 where the filament itself began burning the envelope on one side first.

I would dare say that this was a lamp flaw itself and not a problem of the setup, so like I said I'll start using my other new MN15. Bottom line is this lamp was like new all through its life until the very sudden death, all the while the filament itself is still intact.


----------



## adamr999

I had the same blackening problem but with a MN60 with about 4 hours on it in a M4. I called Surefire and they said it was a flawed bulb so they shipped me a replacement next day. Also, I have purchased a M6 with the X-LOLA after reading this thread and I couldn't be happier with the performance.
Thanks guys.


----------



## KeyGrip

js said:


> There is a low output LA for the E2e that runs for 2.5 hours and is nice and white. MN02, IIRC.


Perfect! Now I need to find an E series bezel for my L4. :thinking:


----------



## BSBG

Great thread!

Another reason I thnk I'll be ordering an M6 sooner rather than later. I even have a couple of MN15's sitting around for my M3T.


----------



## bakemono 415

i got a mn15 bulb today in my M6. i was just wondering if the beam pattern is supposed to be oval in shape as compared to the round pattern with the MN21


----------



## LED61

bakemono 415 said:


> i got a mn15 bulb today in my M6. i was just wondering if the beam pattern is supposed to be oval in shape as compared to the round pattern with the MN21


 
Yep, you are OK. Actually they are all oval but the MN15 more so. I like it because I can choose to illuminate wider or taller. And, isn´t the bright white beam amazing ?


----------



## 1wrx7

Last night I tried using a LF HOM3T bulb in my M6. I was wondering if anyone has used this bulb for an extended time yet? Will it handle fresh primaries? I know these bulbs are still new, but has anyone done life cycle testing.


----------



## dolbyyy

Hi all,
I've just ordered a new M6, it should arrive in the next few days and I was bit worried about the old MN20 problems that I've read in this wonderful thread. So I would ask you if there is any way to recognize an old MN20 model vs. the new model by just looking at the lamp. Is there something that I should notice or read on the MN20 in order to notice that it's the new or the old one?:thinking:
Thx


----------



## js

If it isn't black with white lettering saying "MN20" then it is definitely an old MN20--I think they were purple? And the MN21's were grey? I think that's right.

If it IS black with white lettering, then it could possibly be an old, or it could be a new. The only way to be sure is to count the coils on the filament. I can't remember off the top of my head, but I can post back here later with the figure, because the new design MN20 has two more coils in the filament winding. I think that's right. And--I'm guessing--but I seem to remember 12 vs. 14 as the winding numbers. Hmmm. Not sure, though.

If it is an older colored LA, be careful. A lot of them simply explode when you first use them, and that doesn't do anything helpful for the inside of your turbo head! LOL!


----------



## dolbyyy

js said:


> If it is an older colored LA, be careful. A lot of them simply explode when you first use them, and that doesn't do anything helpful for the inside of your turbo head! LOL!


Oh Thanks js for warning me. Now I know that I have to pay attention to the model of MN20 I'm receiving. I wouldn't start enjoying my new M6 with an explosion in my hands :sigh: 
Now I also understand why an ebayer added this warning to the M6 description he is selling:
"[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]This version ships with the M21 Lamp because of Lamp productions issues for the M20"[/FONT] 

Well, I have to cross my fingers


----------



## NickDrak

Interesting thread! I hope to have a M6 soon, so this info will definately come in handy:thumbsup:


----------



## william lafferty

js

Any thoughts on running an MN16 on an M4 body bored out to accept 2 x 18650s? I really like the throw this setup produces and although I havent yet performed any tests, I expect the runtime to be decent. (Leef also produces a 2 x 18650 body C to M). Would be interested in comparing the beams, runtime and general usefulness of this setup with the M6 using MN15s and primaries.

bill lafferty


----------



## JimmyB

dolbyyy said:


> Now I also understand why an ebayer added this warning to the M6 description he is selling:
> "[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]This version ships with the M21 Lamp because of Lamp productions issues for the M20"[/FONT]


 
I don't think the seller was warning about reliability issues. For a time all M6's were shipping with a voucher for the MN20 because they weren't available. You could either wait for an MN20 or get another MN21.

None of this takes away from JS's statement on older MN20's.


----------



## tino_ale

Wow! very cool finding!

At this time, I have an M3 running MN10 on two 17500. This setup is brighter than running primaries because the voltage under load is higher than a single stack of 3 123's... My guestimate is that I'm getting 140 lumens for about 1 hour.

Could someone confirm a MN10 running on two 17500 gives about 140 lumens? I'd like to know how much brighter is the M6-X setup compared to what I have now... thanks!


----------



## BSBG

tino_ale said:


> Wow! very cool finding!
> 
> 
> 
> Could someone confirm a MN10 running on two 17500 gives about 140 lumens? I'd like to know how much brighter is the M6-X setup compared to what I have now... thanks!





From the link below:
Cell configuration: 2x17500

Bulb Options:
SF MN15: 9.5W, 151 - 94 lumen in 52 minutes


https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/161536

Hope this helps.


----------



## js

Bill Laferty,

No experience with 2 18650's running MN16m sorry!

dolbyyy,

What Jimmy said. For a time, the MN20 was unavailable from SureFire, and M6's shipped with MN21 and voucher for MN20 when they became available. I don't know what the inside story was on the MN20, but certainly, the new MN20's are physically different. They have slightly different filaments and run at a lower CCT. At some point, I'd like to do a side by side comparison of them, but there are a lot of other things higher priority, so I haven't gotten around to doing it yet. So many projects, so little free time . . .


----------



## SunStar

william lafferty said:


> js
> 
> Any thoughts on running an MN16 on an M4 body bored out to accept 2 x 18650s? I really like the throw this setup produces and although I havent yet performed any tests, I expect the runtime to be decent. (Leef also produces a 2 x 18650 body C to M). Would be interested in comparing the beams, runtime and general usefulness of this setup with the M6 using MN15s and primaries.
> 
> bill lafferty



The MN16 / M4 / (2) 18650 is much brighter than the MN15 / M6 / primaries set up and will only run 40 - 45 minutes as compared to the 2.5 hour runtime of the MN15 / M6. The MN16 is an awesome lamp - one of my favorites - but it is hungry. I have also found the MN16 on (2) 18650's to be brighter than the MN60 (w. primaries) and the MN20 (w. Li-ions). A great compromise is using the MN20 powered with (2) 18650's providing about 10 minutes additional runtime over the MN16.


----------



## tino_ale

Thanks, great info!

When you estimate 200 lumens from the M6-X, do you have any idea how it drops during runtime? Something like 220-160 lumens in 2 hours or so?



BSBG said:


> From the link below:
> Cell configuration: 2x17500
> 
> Bulb Options:
> SF MN15: 9.5W, 151 - 94 lumen in 52 minutes
> 
> 
> https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/161536
> 
> Hope this helps.


----------



## js

tino_ale,

It stays at 200 for the first hour or so, then gradually falls to 100 at 2.5 hours.


----------



## Bullzeyebill

SunStar, I believe that the MN16 with two 18650's has been found to be on the edge voltage wise, and can die. Same with the P91 LA. Should really drain some voltage off two fully charged 18650's before turning MN16 on. Three CR123 with the MN16 and there is enough voltage sag to run it to spec.

Bill


----------



## william lafferty

Bullzeyebill said:


> SunStar, I believe that the MN16 with two 18650's has been found to be on the edge voltage wise, and can die. Same with the P91 LA. Should really drain some voltage off two fully charged 18650's before turning MN16 on. Three CR123 with the MN16 and there is enough voltage sag to run it to spec.
> 
> Bill


 
I'd like to understand this better, Bill. The Surefire site says that the M16 is suited for the M3T. The M3T uses 3 x 123, or 9 volts. Two 18650's produce 8.4 volts, fully charged. Why is it that the 18650's might be too much for the M16 bulb?

bill lafferty


----------



## Bullzeyebill

bill, I have been running a search on the voltage requirements of the MN16, no luck yet. The voltage requirements of the MN16 (P91) are lower than the MN15. The voltage is lower while the current is significantly higher, about 2.5 amps or so. Still looking.

Bill


----------



## Bullzeyebill

bill, read the first page of this thread. Some discussion there about the MN15, and MN16 re voltage. The thread primarly concerns the use of the MN15 in the M6, but the info about voltage is an eye opener and 2X18650's hold their voltage similiar to the 6 CR123's running in parallel in the M6. Post #20 is good.

Bill

Correction, post #22.


----------



## Brozneo

So just wondering would this set up work - If I ran my M6 for awhile with the 250lumen stock LA, then I put the MN16 in - would it be at less risk of blowing then??? Or the same as they batteries dont sag too much??


----------



## Bullzeyebill

Read the first page of this thread. This has been discussed. In fact read the whole thread.

Bill


----------



## js

Yes. Please read over the thread before asking any question or posting any comments. At least read MY posts, anyway!

Also, if people want to talk about running any particular SF lamp assembly on two 18650's or seventeen CR123A or whatever, I'd appreciate it if you could do so elsewhere! There are plenty of threads on almost every conceivable topic, and most of them can be found with the search function. Or if you must, start a new thread in the appropriate forum. But adding on off-topic material to this thread isn't the best approach. Or, if you want to ask ME in particular, send a PM instead!

Thanks very much, everyone. And, just to be clear, I'm not mad or peeved or anything. I just would prefer that my threads not get cluttered up with extraneous strings of posts.


----------



## bwaites

So do we have any idea on the life expectancy of the MN15 run this way yet?

Bill


----------



## js

Good question, Bill.

Yes. Unfortunately, it's looking like something in the 15-20 hour range, but our sample size is fairly small as of yet. My MN15 is still going strong, but I haven't yet exceeded the 20 hour mark. I was really hoping it would be more like 30 hours, but still, even 15 isn't bad. I mean the WA1111 on 6 good NiMH cells is only in the 11 or so hour life expectancy, so, it's better than that! The price of a very high CCT, I guess. No instaflashes that I'm aware of, yet, though, so that's good.

Anyway, thanks for asking!


----------



## Katdaddy

js, you are wreaking havoc on my finances!  First it was your magnum opus on the A2(I have three so far), now this on the M6. I have been successfully fighting the urge to buy one for several months now. But after finding this thread I HAVE to get one. 
Seriously......... great info! This is why I Love CPF!


----------



## william lafferty

For the last three weeks I have been running my own tests of the M6-MN15 combination by taking it and at least one other light with me on my nightly walks through the local cemetery and comparing the effectiveness of the lights. The cemetery is between 400 and 600 acres and has no lighting, so during the times when I'm not scared out of my wits, I turn the lights on and compare them.

The bottom line is that the M6 M15 combination is terrific. It lights up everything beautifully within 50 yards. It allows you to identify a man sized object easily at 100 yards. And under the right conditions it will allow you to identify a man sized object at 200 yards, but that is stretching it. If there is too much ambient light; if the object is in brush or a hedgerow; if the object is dark in color, the 200 yards identification will not work.

But having said that, most of what we need light for is closer than 200 yards, and for the reasonably close stuff the MN15 is fine. An MN 20 is noticeably brighter, but it has a short run time, and if I wanted to use a second light to back up the M6 M15, it would be an M4 bored out for 2 x 18650 fitted with the MN16 bulb. This combination is noticeably brighter than the M6 MN15 and provides much better light at 200 yards. 

The importance of js's discovery of the M6 MN15 combination and his sharing it on this thread is that it gives most of us a way to use our M6's. I have always really liked M6's, but until this thread, I never used mine much because it never made much sense to me to keep putting 6 primaries in the tube after short run times. Using the MN15 allows you to use your M6, get great and useful brightness out of it, and not always be feeding it cells. Thanks js.


----------



## pedrop357

Agreed. I bought an M6-CB and while it was being ordered, I found this thread. When I picked up the M6, I bought an MN15.

I live in Vegas and drive out to Red Rock and stand on the side of the road and wait for the cars to disappear so I can test range and output of my lights. I imagine it must look pretty suspicious for drivers, but oh well.

The MN15 in the M6 is an awesome light. It had excellent range and overall output and the 2.5 hour runtime is a huge draw on top of that. The size and bezel of the M6 add to the utility and defensive capabilities.

The MN15 adds quite a bit of value and range of utility to the M6 for those a little weary of paying 330+ for a flashlight. 

This was the same reason I justified to myself buying my U2. The output settings enabled me to have a low output light for everyday use and in an emergency it would also give me long battery life. The high end enable long distance and potential tactical use and gave me a nice battery life on that end as well.


----------



## js

Katdaddy,

Thanks! I was just so thrilled about this combo that I had to share it and report on it and keep a thread going on it. The M6 is a thing of beauty, and to have a long running, high CCT lamp for it is such a boon.

william lafferty,

Really great field testing info! Thanks so much for reporting it here!

pedrop357,

Yup. It's a really nice combination of factors. First I love the size and ergonomics of the M6. Second, I love the output and whiteness of the MN15 (and MN20 and MN21, too, actually). And third, the 2.5 hour runtime is really fantastic considering the output and size. 2.5 hours covers so many more situations than 1.0 hour or 20 minutes. Although, I really, REALLY love the MN20 beam as much or more than the MN15. But given how I use the M6, the MN15 is a better choice, the MN20 being actually a bit too much output for my most frequent uses.

Anyway, thanks everyone! Please feel free to keep the reports coming. They are important information for this setup as used in the "field", in real life.


----------



## seery

I updated back in June on MN15 bulb life and now it's been another 5 months.

Since June my dedicated M6 X-LOLA light lasted 22 hours and the current bulb
has 16 hours and looks as bright/white as when compared side-by-side with
another of my M6's with a brand new MN15.

A few weeks back the M6 X-LOLA took a hard fall onto the dock, off the side of
my aluminum boat and into the water. Is only 4' deep at the dock so it was
fished out in a minute or two. The light was on when this happened and like
other bangs and falls, no ill effect.

I'm getting better bulb life this go around. Only difference has been the outside
temperature, first few of the initial 5 months were during cold winter months,
whereas the past 5 months have been nice summer/fall temperatures. During
the winter months I like to shine the M6 under the ice.


----------



## js

seery,

Great info! Thank you so very much for posting this update to the thread! I haven't hit the 15 hour mark yet on my MN15 and it too is still going strong. I really hope that it turns out that 20-25 hours is typical for the X-LOLA.


----------



## Illum

My MN15 arrived today [:thanks: ADDICTED2LITE], loaded it in and *ohh my g'awd!* the MN15 was brighter than the MN20:huh::duh2: [then again it could be because the batteries in the M6 are not all that new]

I'm going to try it out tonight :devil:
unfortunately my cameras not in a place where I can find it


----------



## LED61

It will appear WHITER than the MN20 IMHO, but the width and height of the beam is definitely smaller.


----------



## BSBG

Illum_the_nation said:


> My MN15 arrived today *ohh my g'awd!* the MN15 was brighter than the MN20:huh::duh2:



Try them side by side and the MN20 is noticeably brighter with more peripheral output. I like 'em both but they are definitely different , which is the whole idea - a third SF option for the M6 .


----------



## LED61

In my view, the color temperature of the NEW MN20 is lower than that of the MN15. That´s one of the reasons I like it better over the MN20. But is less peripheral amplitude.


----------



## Illum

BSBG said:


> Try them side by side and the MN20 is noticeably brighter with more peripheral output.



I need another M6:candle:


----------



## ttran97

Illum_the_nation said:


> I need another M6:candle:



I say have 3...one with each bulb: MN15, MN20, MN21!


----------



## Illum

ttran97 said:


> I say have 3...one with each bulb: MN15, MN20, MN21!



we need _comparison _beamshots _between those_ 
_
edited for clarity_


----------



## seery

Illum_the_nation said:


> My MN15 arrived today, loaded it in and ohh my g'awd! the MN15 was brighter than the MN20 [then again it could be because the batteries in the M6 are not all that new]


Illum - Agree completely. The last two MN15's I received are noticeably
brighter than my current MN20's. Side by side they even throw a bit further.

Just would not want to imagine life without SF M6's.


----------



## :)>

Any problem running the MN15 on AW's C-Cell LiIon's?


----------



## BSBG

Illum_the_nation said:


> we need beamshots



Have you seen these:

https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/159186

It is really hard to judge without having both in hand at the same time. I think the MN20 (old style) throws farther than the MN21, but it has a much smaller spot and the total amount of light is less.

The new style MN20s are yellower and not quite as tight as the old ones (but they say the old ones are more likely to explode) so maybe my comparison is skewed.


----------



## MrBadExample

After reading through this thread I just ordered a M6.  Unfortunately, I missed out on the 2 m6-r batteries that were up for sale. :mecry: Thankfully, it looks like the MN15 bulb will suit my purposes.


----------



## Illum

BSBG said:


> Have you seen these:
> 
> https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/159186



I was referring to MN15 vs MN20
I'll be more explicit next time


----------



## BSBG

Illum_the_nation said:


> I was referring to MN15 vs MN20
> I'll be more explicit next time



The last picture in post #1 shows the MN15, 20 and 21


----------



## Illum

BSBG said:


> The last picture in post #1 shows the MN15, 20 and 21



in that case no I didn't see it...


----------



## Bullzeyebill

I did not see it.

Bill


----------



## js

Illum_the_nation said:


> My MN15 arrived today thanks: ADDICTED2LITE), loaded it in and ohh my g'awd! the MN15 was brighter than the MN20:huh::duh2: *(then again it could be because the batteries in the M6 are not all that new*
> 
> I'm going to try it out tonight :devil:
> unfortunately my cameras not in a place where I can find it



Illum_the_nation,

It is almost CERTAINLY the case of weak batteries here. The MN20 old OR new, is *NOTICEABLY* brighter than the MN15 in M6.

However, as mentioned, the MN15 might be a touch _whiter_ in the M6 than the _new style_ MN20. But in terms of total output, there's no question that if everything is going right, the MN20 kicks the MN15's butt.

But, total output isn't all that and a bag of chips, and currently the MN15 is my favorite M6 LA. I used to slightly prefer the old style MN20, until it exploded in my turbo head.

Ah well. Once again, SureFire replaced the head for free. I know people complain about their CS from time to time, but in my experience, I've been pretty happy about getting two new turbo heads in exchange for two ruined ones due to lamp explosions.


----------



## Illum

_EDIT: user error...inconsistent distance compared equates to a false illusion of beam characteristic_

I don't remember jarring it..and it gets a hot shower every night [where its being used usually has grease/oil/solvants around ]


----------



## BSBG

Bullzeyebill said:


> I did not see it.
> 
> Bill



For those of you who did not , or can not see this, I downloaded and re-hosted them:


----------



## js

> my MN15s beam went from a near perfect ball...to a pear...to an ellipse and now to something that I can mount horizontally to my car i can illuminate the entire driveway like a uni-headlight



Err. Wow. That's strange!

OK. First of all, I assume that the whiteness and output of the beam haven't changed? If they haven't, that must mean that the lamp is loose in the potting material inside the stem that sticks up above the collar that holds the dual coil springs. Or, it could mean that the collar/stem assembly is loose in the M6 head.

First, check that. Unscrew the head with the lens more or less downwards to prevent the lamp from falling out, then test the fit of the LA in the bore of the reflector. Is it pretty tight fitting? There should be a very little bit of play, but not too much. Next, is there anything between the collar and the butt of the reflector? Such as dirt or bits of paper or metal or whatever? If all that is OK, pull the LA out of the bore and examine the glass lamp and potting. Take a clean cloth of paper towel and while holding the stem/collar, try wiggling the lamp. It should NOT move. If it does, that's a problem. Stop using the lamp.

In fact, I would stop using it in any case.

If you find any of these kinds of problems, SureFire will warrantee the lamp, I'm sure. Just don't ask them to warrantee it because it didn't last the full 35 hours. We're overdriving this bad boy, so it will only last 15-20 hours.

Now, there's one last possibility, and that is that the _filament_ itself has moved _inside_ the glass envelope. Take a look and make sure that the filament is more or less centered inside the glass envelope.

Plus, back at the beginning of this whole trouble shooting tree, if your lamps output is NOT white and bright, but is maybe offcolored and even dim, then it's DEFINITELY a problem with the filament/envelope. Stop using the lamp and get a new one sent to you from SF.

Good luck and let us know what's going on.


----------



## ttran97

I just got my MN15 today and tried it in my old M6 (it says Millennium Series M6 on the side! wow, old...).

I have to admit, I was very nervous to turn it on because of hearing about the infamous "instaflash" issues. But luckily, nothing happened except beautiful white light! My batteries were pretty run down so I was getting a nasty yellow light with the MN20...

Thanks for this thread! This really gives new life to my M6!


----------



## js

ttran97,

I don't think there have been any instaflash issues with the MN15, actually :thinking: . Not that I can remember anyway. It's not being overdriven to the point of instaflash danger. Plus, the difference in fully loaded vs. open circuit battery voltage is lower due to the lower draw rate (2.5 hours vs. 1.0 hour or 20 min).

And it sounds like you should install some new batteries to really get the X-LOLA experience! And they white light will stay that way for at least the first hour of running. Very nice characteristic, in my opinion!


----------



## Illum

when I mentioned I can use it as a uni-head light, I was exaggerating a bit...but its a pretty wide ellipse

theres no tint/brightness variation I can tell, its dimmed a bit since I first got it, but I've already made an hour worth of runtime on this set of cells [I need to get more because I don't have a set of 6 good cells to test the light with]

ttran97, Mines also the old Millennium Series....Magnumlight A004110

1st thing I noticed...the threads are awfully dry [I feel like such an unworthy parent ]



the o-rings very very dry :sigh:

the lamp cavity on the body is of copper color...looks a bit tarnished, so I decided to wipe it down....lo and behold the dust that has accumulated. 



its a used light yes...but I never realized my room had this much dust for it to accumulate [I left the body separated from the bezel to test the output of the batteries...then I left it as such in preparation for a midterm exam and forgot about it

the end of the MN15 looks a bit overcrimped, but quite a few of those dents came on the lamp freshly out of its package, the lamp does not move around easily but theres sufficient room for the lamp to wobble in the reflector bore. the envelope is firmly secured to the potting base...no issues there





quick shot of the lamp




interesting fact is the projection shape went back to "normal" after the reassembly...the near perfect squash shaped ball of surefire grade photons:duh2:




you just solved me problem... :thanks: js!


----------



## ttran97

JS, thanks for the tips. I think it's time to move the batteries to my box of "used, but ok for LED" batteries. Maybe one day Surefire will make an LED drop-in for the M6! hehe. Oh, by the way...I talked to Dan from Tactical Warehouse the other day, and he still loves the wonderful job you did on his M6-R!

Nice pics, Illum! One of mine only says "Millennium Series M6"...nothing about Magnumlight on it. I think that one pre-dates the ones that say MagnumLight. That's what is on my second one..."MagnumLight". I'm tempted to pick up one that says "Guardian" on it just to complete my collection. Are there any other name designations that I'm missing?


----------



## Illum

ttran97 said:


> Maybe one day Surefire will make an LED drop-in for the M6! hehe.



if you really must...theres is currently a LED for M6 thats not made by a third party...but it destroys the appearance of the M6
read these 
*What would happen if I put my KL6 on my M6 body ?
**L6 head on M6 body will it work?*
*Surefire M6 Question*



ttran97 said:


> Are there any other name designations that I'm missing?


I don't believe theres any other variations...as 1996 catalog didn't have the M6, closest to my records in 2002, not there either
Millennium series M6 [first appearance in 2003 illumination catalog] comes after the M6 Magnumlight [2002 catalog] and the guardian came out around 2006
looked through all the catalogs 
from catalog... 2002, 2003, 2006, 2007 PK's hairstyle [off topic]


----------



## ttran97

Illum_the_nation said:


> if you really must...theres is currently a LED for M6 thats not made by a third party...but it destroys the appearance of the M6
> read these
> *What would happen if I put my KL6 on my M6 body ?
> **L6 head on M6 body will it work?*
> *Surefire M6 Question*



Oh, I know about the KL6. Size15s and I have had a few discussions regarding that setup. haha. Thanks anyway. For now, I'm more than happy with the MN15 setup!


----------



## Illum

ttran97 said:


> Oh, I know about the KL6. Size15s and I have had a few discussions regarding that setup. haha. Thanks anyway. For now, I'm more than happy with the MN15 setup!



well...theres a seoul light tower around here somewhere if you are still interested
mostly sell threads that has ended, but none the less provides some decent information and or pics if your inclined to do research on it 
*Turbo Head and Tower Module with adjustable focus!*
***Pics** SSC P4 (USVOH) Tower Module Complete!*
*F/S: Arc Mania/Katokichi SF Turbo Head Module - 5W (WXOS Emitter)! *SOLD!**
*Ended! Back by popular demand, SF TH modules. [post]*
*Dead centering a Cree XR-E, tower module too.*
for spent cells I usually use something like my fenix P1-CE to burn them off during showering, outdoor walks, etc...I don;t trust lights burning off unevenly matched cells unless they are drawing a very very small amount of current and direct driven [something like the Inova X5 would be the only light I allow to eat away my spent cell stash]
anyway, this is way off topic


----------



## js

Illum,

That pic of your MN15 seems to me to show a filament that is way off to the side. Is that right? And it's really fishy that it went back to normal on it's own.

ttran,

Dan mentioned his M6-R, eh? Cool! Good to know it's still going strong!


----------



## Illum

js said:


> Illum,
> 
> That pic of your MN15 seems to me to show a filament that is way off to the side. Is that right? And it's really fishy that it went back to normal on it's own.



I believe theres a difference between viewing a beamshot 2 feet to the wall versus looking at a beamshot ~100 feet on the wall of a nearby building. I didn't go out and test what it looked like yesterday night:candle:

the lamp can wobble fairly easy when its 1/3 its way up the reflector bore...could it be that the lamp was at an angle instead of being perfectly straight in there to begin with? since I had changed nothing except uninstall and reinstalling the lamp I can't think of any possibility on that matter

the lamp from looking at it seems straight from the side of the filament, and centered from the front

fishy indeed....but I don't have an explanation for it...unless beamshot outdoors had something to do with it. as the M6 is anything but a household task light :candle:

_EDIT: I figured out why, lamps normal, outputs normal, an ball shaped beam indoors is still an elliptical beam out 
js, I apologize for setting you out on a wild goose chase here...I'll remember next time to control the variables_


----------



## ttran97

js said:


> Dan mentioned his M6-R, eh? Cool! Good to know it's still going strong!



Yeah, he loves it. That's one of only a few lights that he still keeps. I told him about using the MN15 bulb for the M6, but I don't know if he'll be able to use it in the M6-R. What do you say? Thanks.


----------



## js

ttran97,

No, he can't use the MN15 in the M6-R. Well, he *can* but it will be underdriven and not nearly as impressive.

Instead, he should use the MN16 with the M6-R.


----------



## hcd615

Hi, I have two (2) M6's that are older, say Millennium Series on both of them. After reading this thread I bought one MN15, it is on the UPS truck today for delivery. As I read further today I noticed it said something about the MN20 with the purple base may explode. I opened up both of mine and they are the purple based MN20's. I then went to my spare bulbs and I have six (6) more with purple bases. Should I call SF and see if they will exchange them for the black based MN20's? Did they come out and say there is a problem with the bulbs and will exchange them for customers with the purple defective bulbs?

I opened up another M6 that I bought for an employee a few years back and he has the black based MN20 in his, and I looked at the (2) spare MN20's I got him as backup and they are both black based, so mine must really be old. 

What should I do?


----------



## Illum

hcd615, there have been cases of cr123as exploding, but we still continue to use cr123as, why? because the cases add up to only a very small portion of a very large population who use them.

sure theres explosions on purple MN20s, but argumento....they should be okay to use. If you feel very nervous about using them, I suppose calling surefire might help


----------



## BSBG

I emailed SF CS about the old style MN20 a few months ago. The response was "normal product enhancement, no defects..." So run 'em until they die or explode. If they explode, SF will replace your head and the bulb.


----------



## jessen_leong

Hi guys.. please pardon me.. but i would like to find out if the bulb from lumen factory M3#HO-M3T would perform as well as the MN 15 from surefire? What about the beam? which is more circular beam?


----------



## tick398

I stumbled into the HO-M3T for the M6 and I love it...Very round and white beam....however....with runtimes around 75-80 minutes...it is no SF MN15.

As a true CPFer will probably come along and say it...I will say it first....buy both Lamp Assemblies...go play outside at night with them and see which will suit your tastes better.


----------



## nuggett

O hell, I want another M6 again!


----------



## skillet

Thought I might bring this post back to the top... I have read it through at least 3 times.. I can't wait till my "flashlight" fund reaches M6 range.. I've already ordered MN15 lamp ***'ly....

This is gonna be great!!

Gordon aka:skillet


----------



## js

BTT.

So, I'm still running the MN15 in my M6 and I still love it. How is everyone else finding it? I'm especially interested to narrow down the lamp life in this configuration. Right now, I'm estimating 15 to 20 hours, but I fear it's closer to 15 than to 20 based on our current data set. However, it's a rather small data set, so there's no telling. Hence my request . . .

As for the circularity of the MN15 beam, it's definitely oval. Not quite 2 to 1, but close, I think. But, nonetheless, it's a really great beam, and throws very well for its output. I love it. The M6 is my primary walking light, but I don't run it constant on. Instead I flash it when I need more light, and this allows my eyes to retain some amount of dark adaption. I know that some people claim this is a myth, but it's definitely not. If you totally flood the area around and in front of you with constant bright white light, your pupils will contract more than if you use a much dimmer or tighter (or both) light, and/or if you _flash_ that light instead of running it constant on. It also helps to hold the light up and to the side when you flash it, if you're looking at something only 10 feet away. Or you can even direct it _behind_ you and use the indirect bounce-back light to see something in front of you. Lot's of different possibilities, but in any case, it's not a myth. Sometimes less is indeed more, in my opinion. And for me, the X-LOLA is one of those cases. I love it. Plus, I haven't had one of the MN15 frigging explode on me, but I've had two MN20's do that.

All of this said, I must re-interate that this setup is **NOT** an approved SureFire setup, so don't expect the rated life from the lamp.


----------



## Illum

Js, hows the color of your MN15?
Mines been through at least one set of cells and theres some sort of yellow deposits near the base of the lamp
see thread: https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/195063

First leap into M6R and I'm already 2 MN61s short:shakehead
:sigh: https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/195141

well, maybe thats telling my M6 telling me to go back to running the MN15


----------



## js

Illum_the_nation said:


> Js, hows the color of your MN15?
> Mines been through at least one set of cells and theres some sort of yellow deposits near the base of the lamp
> see thread: https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/195063
> 
> First leap into M6R and I'm already 2 MN61s short:shakehead
> :sigh: https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/195141
> 
> well, maybe thats telling my M6 telling me to go back to running the MN15



Illum_the_nation,

Sorry I missed this post back when you first made it! I don't know how I missed it, honestly.

Anyway, just in case you still want to know, my MN15 is as clear and colored-deposit free as ever, and I've definitely put some run time on it.

As for your MN15 and the yellow deposits, if it were me, I'd err on the safe side and get a new one. I don't like to see any colored deposits whatsoever. A bit of darkening (grey deposits) doesn't bother me, but if there's any color to it, especially yellow or blue, I stop using the lamp and get a new one.


----------



## Solscud007

Im adding my two cents in a little late. When i got my M6, I had NO idea of its true potential. It was merely a simple decision that I was looking for a M3 and found an M6 on clearance for close to the same price as a M3. So why not? 

Then I started to do research. thanks to the guys and gals here I have learned to revere and love my M6 even more. I went and got a M3 head, MN10 and MN15 bulb just to have more options. 

I too love the MN15 on primaries. But I do like to show my friends the ridiculous difference of a MN21 bulb.

My next project is rechargeable options, especially since there is such a great thread about them.


----------



## Illum

Solscud007 said:


> It was merely a simple decision that I was looking for a M3 and found an M6 on clearance for close to the same price as a M3. So why not?



thats one hell of a deal you got there :wow:


----------



## Solscud007

Yep $270 is pretty darn good. Only issue was that the store had an "all sales final" on clearance items. But then I remembered that it is a Surefire and if there were ANY problems I could call up surefire and they would take care of me.


----------



## jayflash

This has been an interesting topic since I was lucky enough to get an M6 last Christmas. 

I've been using the MN20 for its better run time over the MN21 and it's almost as bright, for all practical purposes. May I assume the MN15 would be another step down in brightness from the MN20?

Is it correct that there isn't a great difference between each lamp's apparent brightness and the next lamp in the MN sequence. Put another way: a noticeable different exists between the MN21 & MN15, but much less difference with only one step in MN's?

I'm seeking the best balance of brightness and run time.


----------



## DM51

jayflash, have you seen this thread?


----------



## jayflash

Yes, and thanks again for your time spent on the project - it is awesome. 

Your shots look close to what I'd expect the differences in lamp to be. Still, as comprehensive as all those comparisons are, sometimes it's easier to detect a lamp's qualities, live and in person.

The photos look like the MN20 & 15 are really close. I do want my M6 to have throw with a nice size hot spot. Guess I'll have to spring for a MN15 and see for myself. I'll make another guess that a TL-3/litho 123 lamp and two 17500 LiIon cells might be close to an MN15. Or not?


----------



## BSBG

jayflash said:


> I'll make another guess that a TL-3/litho 123 lamp and two 17500 LiIon cells might be close to an MN15. Or not?



It is probably close in total output, but the CL 1499 in a TL3 is a lot more flood than throw. 

To me, there is a large difference going from an MN15 to a 20 and then a 21. As discussed at great length in this tread, the MN15 gives you enough light for most activities and excellent run time. The other bulbs tend to be overkill on a hike or changing a tire, but are just the ticket when there is a loud racket outside your home at 3:00 am.


----------



## jayflash

Thanks, BSBG, that's what I was looking for. Perhaps the MN20 is a good compromise for me because I don't use the M6 unless I want more light than the TL-3 I've got


----------



## mdocod

I just discovered another X-lola option. Not sure if this is still an option or not as I'm not even sure if the bulbs are still available anywhere.. But they were really, cheap, i think a 5 pack was like 2 dollars or something like that. 

About a year ago I bought some little miniature bi-pin bulbs from Kai or DX, can't recall which one. They were 3.6V and 7.2V bulbs respectively. Same size you would find in an ordinary D26 module, but just a bare bulb.

The pin spacing is pretty narrow, but the pins are flexible, the 7.2V bulb can be mounted into a FM bi-pin MN socket pretty easily, just have to adjust position for focus. 

Lamp draws ~1.3A, and produces a perfect tight round beam with almost no artifacts to speak of once adjusted properly in the reflector. Should have runtime almost as long as the MN15. I tested it on a 2xEmoli pack, haven't tried the stock M6 pack yet, but it should also work. 

Eric


----------



## Patriot

That sounds like an interesting alternative Eric. I think the MN15 is around 1.15A so the little D26 type bulb shouldn't be too far behind the 2.5 hour run time. Now we just have to find out where you bought them so cheap.


----------



## socom1970

js said:


> BTT.
> 
> So, I'm still running the MN15 in my M6 and I still love it. How is everyone else finding it? I'm especially interested to narrow down the lamp life in this configuration. Right now, I'm estimating 15 to 20 hours, but I fear it's closer to 15 than to 20 based on our current data set. However, it's a rather small data set, so there's no telling. Hence my request . . .



I did have what appeared to be a problem with one of my M6's with the MN15. After running the MN15 (with maybe 2-3 hours on it) in my M6 for approx. two hours (some momentary, some continuous), I noticed the inside of the glass has what looks like some blackening on both sides of the inside glass surface, flanking either side of the filament. It still works, but it didn't look like that before I put it in the M6, and one side of the glass looks like it has a very small, black particle attached to the blackened glass (piece of tungsten carbide?) that also wasn't there before. I stopped using it in my M6 and have not used an MN15 in either of my M6's since that time.


----------



## Illum

socom1970 said:


> I did have what appeared to be a problem with one of my M6's with the MN15. After running the MN15 (with maybe 2-3 hours on it) in my M6 for approx. two hours (some momentary, some continuous), I noticed the inside of the glass has what looks like some blackening on both sides of the inside glass surface, flanking either side of the filament. It still works, but it didn't look like that before I put it in the M6, and one side of the glass looks like it has a very small, black particle attached to the blackened glass (piece of tungsten carbide?) that also wasn't there before. I stopped using it in my M6 and have not used an MN15 in either of my M6's since that time.



Mine was yellow
https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/195063
but it still works:huh:


----------



## js

socom1970,

One of the dangers of high CCT, overdriven lamps: you have more failures and a greater rate of deposition on the glass. Most MN15's (and most SF lamps in general) have enough of a halogen cycle that this doesn't happen, but every now and then I get one that does exactly what you are describing. And I stop using it and put in a new one. It's just part of the cost of pushing the envelope. Yet another disadvantage of incans relative to LED's, I guess.

Sorry that happened to you! And, you should definitely not use that lamp, just in case--although chances are that it wouldn't explode even if you did. But still . . .


----------



## Solscud007

Sorry mods, I didnt want to start a new thread for this question. 

Will a stock KL6 work with a M6? cause I cant get mine to work with the M6. It didnt fry the KL6 though. worked fine after I swapped it back to my L6 body.


----------



## socom1970

Solscud007 said:


> Will a stock KL6 work with a M6? cause I cant get mine to work with the M6. It didnt fry the KL6 though. worked fine after I swapped it back to my L6 body.



Yes. The KL6 is designed to be used with the M3, M4, and M6 lights. I have used my KL6 on both of my M6's (as well as my M3 and M4) quite often and I like it very much (aside of it looking a bit like a weird lightsaber).


----------



## Solscud007

Thanks. But for some reason mine doesnt want to work with my M6 using SF123 primaries.


----------



## DaFABRICATA

Solscud007 said:


> Thanks. But for some reason mine doesnt want to work with my M6 using SF123 primaries.


 



Thats really strange:thinking::shrug:
I don't know why it wouldn't. 
Call Surefire...


----------



## LED61

I feel the latest posts have strayed this thread into off topic. I think a new thread should be started for the other lamp and the KL6, and keep this for the MN15 lamp in the M6. Just my .02.


----------



## js

I tend to agree with LED61, if it's going to continue for much longer. But it's no big deal either way.


----------



## Kestrel

I hope it's ok to bump this thread, it's been dormant for 6 months, but I just found it by accident and it made for very interesting reading. I've read DM51's 'Rechargeable options for the M6' thread a number of times now, but this thread just taught me a lot about the ins & outs of the specific LA's that are generally used in the M6. The MN15 LA does seem like a very good option that can be overlooked, maybe it might be of use to other newer folks here. It seems like the M6 has gotten a resurgence of interest in recent months.

Thanks for the great thread & the writeups,


----------



## Bullzeyebill

This is the type of thread that will never die and you are not the first to bring it back to life. 

Bill


----------



## Patriot

Kestrel said:


> The MN15 LA does seem like a very good option that can be overlooked, maybe it might be of use to other newer folks here. It seems like the M6 has gotten a resurgence of interest in recent months.




For sure Kestrel, the MN15 is a very neat lamp on the M6. With intermittent use the batteries seem to last forever but yet I never feel cheated out of lumens when I use it either. I think it's because the light is nice and white and the batteries have to be pretty low for the beam to get appear yellow or orange.


----------



## Illum

Patriot said:


> With intermittent use the batteries seem to last forever but yet I never feel cheated out of lumens when I use it either.



I feel cheated out of lumens because you've seen what the M6 on high is supposed to look like and the MN15 simply doesn't cut it for the bulk of the M6

the MN15 is in my SC2 and a set of cells and stuffed in the BOB...if you ever go for the 3x17670 holder, DO NOT SELL the MB20!


----------



## Patriot

Illum said:


> you feel cheated out of lumens because you've seen what the M6 on high is supposed to look like and the MN15 simply doesn't cut it for the bulk of the M6




lol....no, no, I was saying that I *didn't* feel cheated out of lumens...:nana:

I guess that's because it's all relative. When it's pitch black out and you turn on even the MN15 it seems like and awful lot of light.


----------



## Bullzeyebill

Illum said:


> you feel cheated out of lumens because you've seen what the M6 on high is supposed to look like and the MN15 simply doesn't cut it for the bulk of the M6
> 
> the MN15 is in my SC2 and a set of cells and stuffed in the BOB...if you ever go for the 3x17670 holder, DO NOT SELL the MB20!



Alll the light you need is the MN15 for EDC'ing an M6, or for that matter a KT1 and two 17650, or two 18650's. Not going to run out of steam when you are out there, and that beautiful wide hotspot. You have to understand the origin of the X-LOLA to appreciate it.

Bill


----------



## js

Kestrel,

Thanks for bumping this thread to the top! In my opinion the MN15 really is a great option for the M6. It's not for everyone, as evidenced by Illum's post. (Although, I do wonder if he has actually used the MN15 in an M6 running on primaries . . .) But speaking for myself, the MN15 is my most used M6 LA. I have experienced most (but not all) of the various lamps that can be run in the M6, including of course, the MN21, and I am well aware of the joys and thrills of ultra high output. Heck, recently, I've been getting to play with all the 100 watt USL lights I'm putting together for people, and those make the M6 HOLA look anemic! :devil:

But, I always come back to the MN15. I too most definitely would say that I do *NOT* feel that it lacks in output or total lumens, and I too think that a large part of the reason for that is the high CCT and the nice tight, long throwing beam. Those 200 lumens just seem to go a long, long way. Way longer than they have any common-sensical right to go. And the slow 2.5 hour drain on the CR123A's means that the output curve has a nice long, flat plateau to it, which makes the X-LOLA M6 seem almost like a regulated light. Very cool.

However, yes, not for everyone. Some will just plain want more lumens. Others will balk at the non-rechargeable nature of it.

And that's OK! It's all good. It's why there are so many different lights, and so many different options. Choice is good. And this is just one more.


----------



## Kestrel

One thing I found particularly interesting in this thread is that it was pointed out that the MN15 takes advantage of the very low drain rate and lower voltage drops while using the 6-cell configuration to get 'free' watt-hours:
SF 123's @ 1.0 amp drain rate (a very common flashlight configuration): 3.1 watt-hours per cell.
SF 123's @ 0.5 amp drain rate in the M6 / MN15: 3.6 watt hours per cell.

That's almost 20% more energy, for free, as you are slowly draining 6 cells instead of rapidly draining 2. You're getting more amp-hours for the lower drain rate, and since there is less voltage drop, you're getting even more watt-hours.

I recently purchased a SF TH for my FM 2xC C body, but I purchased the KT-2 instead of the KT-1 so I could get the MN15, which sounded like a more useful lamp assembly than what came in the KT-1. I still want an M6, and this MN15 sounds like a sweet setup.:thumbsup:


----------



## Patriot

> js said:
> 
> 
> 
> And the slow 2.5 hour drain on the CR123A's means that the output curve has a nice long, flat plateau to it, which makes the X-LOLA M6 seem almost like a regulated light. Very cool.
> 
> However, yes, not for everyone. Some will just plain want more lumens. Others will balk at the non-rechargeable nature of it.
> 
> quote]
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is exactly why I think it's the best primary option because the drain is so slow. I never cared much for the MN20 and the MN21 is like running a Top Fuel dragster. I would need 18 primaries just to get through a 1 hour evening walk... Granted, evening walks aren't what the light was designed for but the MN15 allows that option where it didn't exist before. With intermittent use the run-time actually increases because the batteries rest and rebound in between.
> 
> By the same principle my second favorite M6 primary set-up is the Lumens Factory EO-M3 bulb and M3 head which provides about and 90 minutes of ultra-white light. Again, I prefer it far more than the MN20.
Click to expand...


----------



## kelmo

I used this setup in a corn maze last year. I ran it for 1 hour and 45 minutes with only a few breaks on a set of less than fresh batteries with no noticable sag in output. The batteries eventually died in their sleep as one day I turned on the light and got the "fatal fade."

This is my standard configuration. Because of the lower amp load I use my non-Surefire batteries in it. Currently Energizer and the next set of cells will be 6 Blackhawk batteries I got with the purchase of another light.


----------



## Illum

Patriot said:


> lol....no, no, I was saying that I *didn't* feel cheated out of lumens...:nana:
> 
> I guess that's because it's all relative. When it's pitch black out and you turn on even the MN15 it seems like and awful lot of light.



edited

Then again I've been using the M6-1185 for too long...


----------



## leukos

The MN15 in the M6 is a really nice combination. It is just the right amount of light for most of my outdoor adventures. Most of us are overdriving it a bit with the MB20. A few months ago I got my dream light by modifying a 3x 17670 pack to regulate at about 7.5V. Really a nice working light. Hopefully something like this will be available for most CPFers once the PhD M6 project comes to light. That will be cool to be able to change voltages between an MN21 and an MN15 with the flick of a switch. :thumbsup:


----------



## Illum

care to share how the PCB works on that Leukos?

looks nice, did you modify the existing adapter or did you buy one from FM without the charger barrel?


----------



## leukos

Hi, Illum

It's no secret, though my packs are finished so there are no "how to" photos. I pirated a Willie Hunt LVR from another light and using some resistors from wquiles, I adjusted the voltage to 7.5v. The circuit flashes when the battery pack gets to about 7.6v or so. The FET on the LVR is small and can only handle the MN20 at the most, so it would never work for the MN21. I'm happy to use it with the MN15 most of the time however, I think it is a good combination, which is the reason for this thread. The battery pack is FM's 3x 17670 pack with the charging jack removed. The pack is nicely suited for an LVR because the threaded rod running through the center can carry the + to the Vin+ on the LVR. The pack that is in the works with PhD M6 project is far superior. I'm looking forward to those becoming available. PM me if you want more specifics.


----------



## Illum

leukos said:


> I pirated a Willie Hunt LVR from another light and....



you gutted an aviator?!


----------



## Outdoors Fanatic

Illum said:


> you gutted an aviator?!


LOL!!


----------



## RobertM

Patriot said:


> lol....no, no, I was saying that I *didn't* feel cheated out of lumens...:nana:
> 
> I guess that's because it's all relative. When it's pitch black out and you turn on even the MN15 it seems like and awful lot of light.



Patriot, I completely agree with you on this! A little while back I popped the MN15 into my M6 (running on 6 primaries) and let her rip outside. It really does put out an amazing amount of light and throws it so well. Now granted, I hadn't played with the MN20 or MN21 for a while, but I did take the bezel off and double-checked that is was in fact the MN15 in there, LOL.

-Robert


----------



## js

Yup. The MN15 in the M6 really does perform much better than you would think! My M6 w/ MN15 is one setup I would never sell unless I'm absolutely desperate for money. It's great to have a long throwing, very low self-discharge, long running incan sitting around. The beam is white, it throws, is bright enough for almost any of my needs (YMMV), and runs for 2.5 hours on 6 primaries. I love it. Not cheap, and not exactly cheap to run if you need light for hours at a time, but still not bad, either. About $2 or $3 per hour depending on what cells you use.

For me this setup has stood the test of time and has turned out to be one of my faves.


----------



## Illum

I am having a severe issue deciding which best to operate the M6 with the MB20

I have with me a KL6 modded by CM using a CREE P4 cool-white driven at 1 amp and I can't seem to decide between that and the MN15. Other than the comfort to be able to EDC it unnoticed there isn't much the KL6 can do that the KT2-MN15 couldn't.


----------



## js

Illum,

The MN15 in the Millennium turbo head is a tight, tight beam. Not really very good for general indoor use. Plus, while it is "white" for an incan, it's not the white that an LED puts out, and for some, this is a deal breaker. Obviously, you know all this, though! Just kind of thinking aloud here to continue the discussion and maybe something helpful will come out of it that will help tip the scales one way or the other for you.

Oh, and also, obviously, the lifetime of the MN20 sucks compared to a CREE! So there's that. The fragile issue is a non-issue in the turbo head, and . . . well, that's all I can think of for the moment.


----------



## CM

Illum said:


> I am having a severe issue deciding which best to operate the M6 with the MB20
> 
> I have with me a KL6 modded by CM using a CREE P4 cool-white driven at 1 amp and I can't seem to decide between that and the MN15. Other than the comfort to be able to EDC it unnoticed there isn't much the KL6 can do that the KT2-MN15 couldn't.



The Cree P4 is a first generation XR-E. If you can get an R2, it will give you over 40% increase in output. Check your PM.


----------



## RobertM

Illum said:


> I am having a severe issue deciding which best to operate the M6 with the MB20
> 
> I have with me a KL6 modded by CM using a CREE P4 cool-white driven at 1 amp and I can't seem to decide between that and the MN15. Other than the comfort to be able to EDC it unnoticed there isn't much the KL6 can do that the KT2-MN15 couldn't.



I'd go for the MN15. The M6 is obviously an outdoors light and we all know that incans with their superior color rendering are much better for outdoors :laughing:

In light of revisiting this thread yesterday, I did take the M6/MN15 outside last night and played with it around the yard  ...still impressive!

-Robert


----------



## Patriot

Illum, I went through the same pondering thoughts as you are with the exact same two options. My choice was a milky KL6 P4 or the MN15. Initially I went with the MN15, mainly because of *Js's* awesome research which resulted in the best long burn incan option that I've ever run. It was perfect for my camping, fishing and hunting trips and was always in my pack with and extra MB20. Eventually I decided to give the KL6 a try and it turned out that it worked pretty well mainly due to the reduced size. The MN15 has a tight beam but so does my KL6 mod, which in reality proves fairly useful in the outdoors. I still prefer the color of the MN15 because it's way up there on the white scale for incans. 

Honestly I don't think you can go wrong either way. Most of my M6's have turbo heads so I didn't mind making one or two of them into easier to carry lights. I'm not sure if that helps much but that has been my history with the two.


----------



## Illum

Patriot said:


> Illum, I went through the same pondering thoughts as you are with the exact same two options. My choice was a milky KL6 P4 or the MN15. Initially I went with the MN15, mainly because of *Js's* awesome research which resulted in the best long burn incan option that I've ever run. It was perfect for my camping, fishing and hunting trips and was always in my pack with and extra MB20. Eventually I decided to give the KL6 a try and it turned out that it worked pretty well mainly due to the reduced size. The MN15 has a tight beam but so does my KL6 mod, which in reality proves fairly useful in the outdoors. I still prefer the color of the MN15 because it's way up there on the white scale for incans.
> 
> Honestly I don't think you can go wrong either way. Most of my M6's have turbo heads so I didn't mind making one or two of them into easier to carry lights. I'm not sure if that helps much but that has been my history with the two.



I think the MN15 approach is indeed better...both of my options draw around 1 amp anyway but with the MN15 I get a full spectrum of wavelengths to work with.

as for EDC, whats the word on using MN10/11 lamps with an M3 bezel? 

oh wo0t, 10K post....I really need to give CPF a break for a change.


----------



## js

You can use the MN10 M3 LOLA in the M6, with the M3 head installed instead of the M3T/M6 head. It's the same exact filament as the MN15, but with a different filament to collar distance so that the focal length is right for the different reflector/head. And you'd get a wider beam, at the loss of some throw--but for EDC, this would be a good trade off IMO.


----------



## mdocod

Only problem with that Z46 (M3 head) on the M6 is the cucumber look.. Does make it amazingly more portable though, it'll even slip into some of the larger pant pockets on some of my jeans.


----------



## js

mdocod said:


> Only problem with that Z46 (M3 head) on the M6 is the cucumber look.. Does make it amazingly more portable though, it'll even slip into some of the larger pant pockets on some of my jeans.



Yeah, I'm not too fond of the look of the M6 w/ M3 head either, but if it suited my needs, and went with that configuration, I'm sure I'd get used to the appearance after a bit. Fortunately, the M6 with standard turbo head on it best fits both my needs, and my aesthetic.


----------



## leukos

Illum said:


> you gutted an aviator?!


 
 Ha, SF isn't the only brand that uses Willie's circuits (though I have toyed with the idea of gutting an A2 to power other SF lights). 
I removed the LVR from this battery pack: http://www.lightingpro.org/pubs/POWERSTIK%20Information%20Sheet%20-%20Low%20Res.pdf and replaced (i think it was R4) with a 137ohm surface resistor to bring the voltage up to about 7.5V and then modded the FM pack to work with it. It's a lot of work to harvest the circuit from the existing pack. If anyone wants to make their own regulated pack, it might be easier to use JimmyM's regulator: https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/231489 From the schematic, it looks like the threaded rod of an FM pack could be attached to the Vin+ if the hole was drilled out a little. His design makes it much easier to adjust the Vout+ and it could easily handle the power requirements of the MN21. :thumbsup:


----------



## Illum

I have read the 2004 review of it before [here] but I did not know that it used one of Willie Hunts LVRs, I thought that was exclusive to surefiresoo:


----------



## Patriot

Illum said:


> I think the MN15 approach is indeed better...both of my options draw around 1 amp anyway but with the MN15 I get a full spectrum of wavelengths to work with.
> 
> as for EDC, whats the word on using MN10/11 lamps with an M3 bezel?
> 
> oh wo0t, 10K post....I really need to give CPF a break for a change.






Illum, in the following picture you can see that I have one set-up that way on the right. I did make one modification in that I'm now using a LF EO-M3 bulb instead. It's whiter and has better throw than the MN10 at a reduced run-time. It sort of falls in between those SF bulbs.


----------



## Illum

lol, cucumber indeed for the Z46

I'm surprised how well the FM body looked in relation to everything else, when I first saw the sale thread I presumed it was short and stubby


----------



## mdocod

Just a heads up that applies here with the subject of a regulated pack making its way in here:

Will (wquiles) and I are working on a 3x17670 adapter based on the same regulator component selection that JimmyM is using. 

All the details are not finalized yet, however, at least 2-3 of the voltage settings on the final release will likely be good ball-parks for the MN15 (bulb life to output tradeoff choices)... Runtime would be basically 2+ hours of solid flat regulated output on an MN15


----------



## junmae

I'm just curious...is the m6 guardian worth it for what new line of flashlights they have out nowadays?


----------



## Patriot

The short answer is yes.

Enjoy the abundant info contained in this thread:

https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/204862


----------



## Illum

junmae said:


> I'm just curious...is the m6 guardian worth it for what new line of flashlights they have out nowadays?




last I remember surefire hasn't turned out a new incandescent flashlight yet...


----------



## Illum

Didn't think I would be the one to  this thread

I've been using the X-LOLA since christmas on occiasion in and out of the house at night [to the utility shed that houses my work bench] and so far all the cells are still 100%:green:
This is never happened before with ANY of my Surefire incandescents, I am apalled by the sheer runtime, it forces me to believe all this commuting around the house hasn't summed up to even an hour of runtime:shrug:


----------



## kelmo

The MN15 is an amazing LA in the M6. When my Brother inlaw was in town we went out after dark and he basically drained a set of cells with a MN21 LA. I popped in the X-LOLA and voilá, the beam was again nice and white. I have never had the fatal fade running the MN15 in my M6. The batteries just die in their sleep.

I put together a sea cumcumber so I could run the MN10. This setup with a beam diffuser is a perfect fit in my John Willis hoster. Without the turbohead bulge, the holster rides a lot more comfortably on the hip.


----------



## 325addict

I found another great "XX-LOLA" for the M6 in combination with a FM bi-pin adapter: the Welch Allyn 1336. Unfortunately, this one has been discontinued. Mine came all the way from Canada (21 pieces).
It is a 6V bulb with .64 A current draw and 525 hours of life. This means, it has some room left for overdriving it.
Re-rated to 7.4V it draws around 0.72A and has a life of 40 hours and will be 116 bulb-Lumens.
It means, it will run comfortably for more than THREE hours :thumbsup:

Timmo.


----------



## Illum

WA1336 you say....:wow: 600ma current draw? are you serious?


----------



## Kestrel

Illum said:


> WA1336 you say.... 600ma current draw? are you serious?


Here's his thread on that configuration - very interesting reading.


----------



## Kestrel

because I came across a *very interesting* old post while doing some historical CPF 'research'. :tinfoil:


JS originated this M6 X-LOLA thread with Post # 1 back in November *2006*.

However, in js's old SF M6-R thread (the complete historical one which originated in late 2004, not his newer 'summary thread' accessable via his signature line), *pyro* suggested the MN-15 for the M6-*R* back on Oct 27, *2004*:
_btw, the M3 LOLA MN15 runs at ~7V, _
_Probably this can be used as LOLA for the M6-R too._ ​js's reply in the next post:
_Indeed! MN15, eh? Yeah, thanks for the suggestion. I have been so focused on the HOLA and support hardware that I haven't even started to look into the M6-R LOLA situation._​*Wow, so this may be the true genesis date of the M6 X-LOLA, even if it took another two years to re-emerge on CPF!! :thumbsup:*


(I do get a kick out of tracing & documenting the origination of things, it's the history buff part of me. :huh


----------



## js

Kestrel,

pyro suggested it as an M6-*R* low output lamp assemlby because it ran at around the same voltage as the LVR3 in the M6-R pack was set to. He wasn't suggesting we use it on primaries.

There's a big difference between the M6-R LOLA and the M6 X-LOLA. The M6-R needed a LOLA different from the MN20 because the MN20 wanted a higher voltage than the M6-R was set to. Hence the suggestion of the MN15.

But, we ended up using the MN*16* as the M6-R LOLA due to its higher output and better voltage matchup with the setpoint of the M6-R pack.

So this isn't really the true gensis of the X-LOLA, in my opinion.


----------



## Kestrel

That's cool, I don't know the nuts & bolts of your voltage considerations with respect to those. Just thought I'd post what I came across & my thoughts, that's all. :shrug:

Thanks for the clarification,
K


----------



## signal 13

I can't believe I didn't come across this post before I sold my M6 body


----------



## 325addict

That's really a pity... I now have sourced no less than TWENTY different lamp-setups for the M6. In my opinion, you should _never_ sell your M6 :green:
Get another one quickly from CPF MP 
And get yourself some Fivemega MN-bipin adapters, some WA-bulbs, and some battery holders (3X 17670 and 2X 18650).

Then, you're back in business 

Timmo.


----------



## Illum

325addict said:


> That's really a pity... I now have sourced no less than TWENTY different lamp-setups for the M6. In my opinion, you should _never_ sell your M6 :green:
> Get another one quickly from CPF MP



Theres an M6 going for $240 on CPFM currently


----------



## signal 13

Illum said:


> Theres an M6 going for $240 on CPFM currently


 
Yeah, I'm all over it!!! 
Sure hope my offer goes through before someone nabs it!!!


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## cy

M6R is still hanging in there... my Schulze charger died 8 months ago. so have not been able to charge my M6R... it's probably limping by now :green:


----------



## 325addict

because a member here stated: "What? You have a Megalennium and don't have an FM1909? "
I dug into it, and that's lamp #21 

Unfortunately rather unsuitable for an M6 because of the combination of 3-cell operation AND enormous current draw (5.5 Amps!!).
The only way to do it is to use the standard battery holder and load it with 6X IMR 16340s. This will run for maybe 10 minutes. Better suitable for a Megalennium and 3X IMR 18650s...

This is exactly 180 degrees the opposite from an X-LOLA: it has a power of 63 Watts :devil:

In my shoot-out, I will try to take pictures from _all_ 21 lamp-setups with a _single_ camera-setting (aperture and shutter speed). As the lamps will range in power from around 5 Watts (WA1336 "XX-LOLA", 6V / 0.64A overdriven to 7.4V) to 63 Watts, there'll be some under exposed and some over exposed pictures, this cannot be prevented...


Timmo.


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## ToddM

JS I have to thank and curse ya  

This was the thread that pushed me to finally buy an M6 and MN15 today. I've always tried to convince myself to buy the M6 but always wanted a longer runtime option. While I love the super bright lights my uses just demand more than 20 minutes of runtime as my flashlight addiction has continued I've found myself going back to lights that have moreand more runtime and the MN15 seems perfect for the M6 in that regard.

Great stuff.


----------



## kelmo

ToddM said:


> JS I have to thank and curse ya
> 
> This was the thread that pushed me to finally buy an M6 and MN15 today. I've always tried to convince myself to buy the M6 but always wanted a longer runtime option. While I love the super bright lights my uses just demand more than 20 minutes of runtime as my flashlight addiction has continued I've found myself going back to lights that have moreand more runtime and the MN15 seems perfect for the M6 in that regard.
> 
> Great stuff.



You can also purchase an M3 bezel directly from Surefire for $42 and an MN10 lamp. It's what I call the "sea cucumber." Same runtime and output but without the turbohead. This is what rides in my truck.


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## NotRegulated

Is there a Lumens Factory lamp that is an equivalent to the MN15?


----------



## Steve in SoCal

LF's HO-M3T is the most similar in terms of voltage and amperage profile.

Edit: specs look to be between a MN15 and a MN20.


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## NotRegulated

Yes, thats all I could find similar as well. i just ordered one but it seems that the MN15 will run for an hour more than the HO-M3T. For the long run time, it seems that the MN15 may be the only lamp available.


----------



## Steve in SoCal

If you have one of FM's bi-pin bulb holders there is a very low amperage 12v bi-pin bulb. Someone here has a stash of them.


----------



## ebow86

Well, after wanting an M6 for the longest time I finally have one on the way via USPS, took my 10X dominator to get it, but regardless, it's on the way.

I just got done reading this thread all the way though, and I have to say this MN10/MN15 configuration in the M6 seems like a dream come true. However, it seems as though nobody was able to estimate a good solid figure for the lamp life using this setup. JS seems to feel confident in his 15 to 20 hr mark, but seeing some of the other post's and seeing pictures of what seems like premature blacking on the envelope isn't exactly instilling confidence in the long term reliability of this setup.

So my hopes in reviving this old thread is that members can chime in and give us some feedback on what the best lamp life estimate is for this setup, and give us some long term reports on how this setup has been holding up over the last few years. I have 1 MN15 and 1 MN10, and I will feel a little more confident in using them with my new M6 after hearing what others have to say now that so many years have passed.


----------



## LED61

ebow86 said:


> Well, after wanting an M6 for the longest time I finally have one on the way via USPS, took my 10X dominator to get it, but regardless, it's on the way.
> 
> I just got done reading this thread all the way though, and I have to say this MN10/MN15 configuration in the M6 seems like a dream come true. However, it seems as though nobody was able to estimate a good solid figure for the lamp life using this setup. JS seems to feel confident in his 15 to 20 hr mark, but seeing some of the other post's and seeing pictures of what seems like premature blacking on the envelope isn't exactly instilling confidence in the long term reliability of this setup.
> 
> So my hopes in reviving this old thread is that members can chime in and give us some feedback on what the best lamp life estimate is for this setup, and give us some long term reports on how this setup has been holding up over the last few years. I have 1 MN15 and 1 MN10, and I will feel a little more confident in using them with my new M6 after hearing what others have to say now that so many years have passed.


 

I was the one that posted the blacked out bulb picture. I have cured this problem by not using brand new 123´s in the MB20 holder. When 123´s are new, the lamp filament runs a bit too hot. It will still continue to run hot but if you take care to "break in" the batteries a bit with your MN21 bulb for about one minute, you can use the MN15 lamp thereafter. 

I think JS figure is even a bit conservative, I have run mine past that mark in these years and since it was replaced from back them I´m still using the same lamp.


----------



## ebow86

LED61 said:


> I was the one that posted the blacked out bulb picture. I have cured this problem by not using brand new 123´s in the MB20 holder. When 123´s are new, the lamp filament runs a bit too hot. It will still continue to run hot but if you take care to "break in" the batteries a bit with your MN21 bulb for about one minute, you can use the MN15 lamp thereafter.
> 
> I think JS figure is even a bit conservative, I have run mine past that mark in these years and since it was replaced from back them I´m still using the same lamp.



Is breaking in the batteries so to speak absolutely necessary? If the batteries are fresh, do we have any kind of estimate as to how much of an impact it has?


----------



## LED61

ebow86 said:


> Is breaking in the batteries so to speak absolutely necessary? If the batteries are fresh, do we have any kind of estimate as to how much of an impact it has?


 

I have been doing this because of what happened the first time around I lost my MN15.

This setup overdrives the lamp a bit and is highly efficient, you´ll notice your MN15 running a very nice color temperature.

But with brand spanking new 123´s you´re pushing it a bit too much. If you´re lucky, nothing will happen, but I´d rather weaken the batteries a bit before running the setup.


----------



## ebow86

I was using the M6+MN15 last night and it's incredible. I'm not a big fan of the MN15, the hotspot and beam shape that is, but when it's running so bright and white, for a solid 2.5 hours, it's simply incredible. I also was running my M3 bezel with MN10 also, it is a very nice setup, although it doesn't have near the range of the MN15+millennium TH, I believe that it gives a more useful beam, though the light does look a little bit ridiculous. For when size and weight is an issue, the M3 bezel on the M6 is perfect.


----------



## Andrew Nik

Cats vs foxes. Illuminated by M6 + MN15

http://youtu.be/MgkUL_XEaOw?hd=1


----------



## Brigadier

Finally, after wanting one for years, I have an M6-CB. I picked one up on closeout from Batterystation for $260 + S/H. A great deal. Had to get one before they were no more.

Now I need a good source for MN-15 LA's........


----------



## Brigadier

Well, tested out the M6 last night when I got home. I am surprised at the size of the hotspot in these, with both bulbs. Especially compared to my 9ANT Commander. Comparing the two, I would dare say that lumen for lumen, the 9ANT throws farther than the M6. But the M6 sure lights up a big area compared to the laser tight beam of the 9ANT.


----------



## Brigadier

Ok, now why this thread HASN'T been made a sticky is beyond me.........

JS, you are brilliant. Absolutely brilliant. What an idea. I would like to buy you a beer someday.

I got my MN15 LA today, threw it in the M6 on fresh Panasonic 123's, and O M G!!!! JS, you are brilliant!! I have never seen such a nice, white incan from a SureFire before. It throws very very well, better than the MN20 IMO due to the smaller hotspot it produces. 

And this thing will run for 2 to 2.5 hours??? Icing on the cake.

This is a great setup. If you haven't tried it, do it!


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## signal 13

I'm itching to buy another M6... Regret selling the last two!!! But with the M6LT out there, I just don't know if I wanna deal with blown bulbs... 

The one thing that makes me miss my M6 was a trip to some underground caverns I took a while back. My M6 lit up areas that you wouldn't see otherwise. I think a cold or even neutral LED light just wouldn't have done the caverns justice. I believe I was running a MN20 on two 18650s w/ MDOCOD's adaptor. 

I even miss carrying it on duty. It slipped into my front or back pocket with ease and felt secure. My M3LT is a pain to get in and out of pockets because of the rubber grip ring. I loved my M4 too, but something about the M6 I just miss so much...


----------



## batman

+1 for batman, i've never sold my M6 and still use the MN-15 setup ocasionally. Although I was uninformed and ran brand new 123s in mine on several ocasions and now the lamp is quite darkened. I'm glad i never got rid of old trusty!


----------



## LED61

Time for new set of 123's in the MB20, and........time for a bulb swap to the MN20. I'm going to "break in" my new cells with a little running the MN20, about three minutes oughta do it. I've been doing this for a while now before inserting the MN15 for the remainder of the batteries life and no problems so far with my MN15 which I estimate has a good 20 hours in it. Ever since my first MN15 darkened I've had zero issues with the replacement MN15 doing the brand new cell break in procedure.

Besides, it doesn't hurt to have a little fun with an MN20 on fresh 123's for a change.


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## Flea Bag

LED61 said:


> Besides, it doesn't hurt to have a little fun with an MN20 on fresh 123's for a change.



Despite having two 2x18650 holders for the M6, I do run the MN20 on primaries and M6 on full stock config. depending on the occasion. When overseas, or on special outings where I want more runtime, the li-ions become the backup instead of the other way around. I thought it can't hurt much to let the MN20s run on the original voltage curve they were designed for every now and then where the LA goes from overdrive to finish at an underdrive.

I guess it's also because I have close to 50 brand new CR123s lying around which will expire in around 3 to 4 years! That and my 18650s are the older lower capacity 2200 mAh type, giving around 40 mintues runtime.

Still, I think its a good idea to break-in the LA at stock config. where you'll also be covered by SureFire's warranty during the critical first few hours of bulb life where failures are more likely to show up. My MN20 was running only on Primaries for quite a few months until Eric started producing his first generation of 2x18650 holders. I must have over 30 hours on my MN20 and it still looks to be in lovely condition. Glass looks nice and clear and not the least bit yellow or brown.


----------



## js

Hey everyone! So glad to hear that people are still aware of, and enjoying, this setup!

So, OK, yes, I find that 20 hours of lamp life is about right, or maybe even a touch conservative. I've been running my M6 in this configuration since I posted about it here in this thread. I guess I've gotten lucky with my two MN15's (pretty small sample set, to be sure) because I never switch to the MN20 or MN21 to break in new batteries. I just pop in new ones and go. So far, no blackened MN15 lamps! But, like I say, I'm probably just lucky. Next time I replace the cells I'll do this--though with the MN21, as I've had TWO MN20's explode in my M6 over the years.

Anyway, yes, this setup is one of my favorites. Since I've been out of the modding business, and been so much more occupied with work and a new house and the like, I've cut down on my flashlights--and I never had a lot of flashlights to begin with! But I will never part with my M6, and the MN15 is my favorite lamp to run in the M6. My EDC is my McGizmo LS20. The kitchen has the M6/MN15 and the SF A2 with normal LA in it. The basement has the SF E2 with balrog body. I was running powerizer rechargeables and LF lamp, but I'm switching to primaries and SF LA's, as it sees so little use, usually. My wife has my trusty ole Arc-LS, and we both have Arc AAA's. And, that's pretty much all the lights I have (or am keeping, anyway). But if I had to narrow down to only two, for me, it would be LS20 and M6/MN15.

Thanks for posting, everyone! And sorry I have been MIA for so long.


----------



## Flea Bag

No need to apologise Jim! Thanks for posting!

You know, I'm an M6 nut too but I've not yet tried the MN15 in this setup. I think I'll take a look at it. Recently received Will's excellent PhD-M6 pack too! Like you, I was away from the forums for quite a while and returned recently. I think the M6-MN20 (on 2x18650 2200mAh) has kept me very happy and that has contributed to me not being that active on the forums as I believe is also a similar case with you.

Anyway, I'm alarmed to hear about your MN20s blowing up in the M6. Were they the older version with purple assembly? I've heard the old ones were more delicate than the final production black ones that I'm using. Moreover, I've found that my MN20 in 2x18650 (2200mAh) isn't being pushed very hard at all. Based on my observations on tint, output and its exsiting condition compared to other bulbs, it was almost as if the MN20 was made for these batteries which explains why my old MN20 is not any yellower than a brand new MN20 that I just took out and compared to side-by-side! Now the final production MN20 on stock 6xCR123 is a different matter, but my old one did go through at least 5 complete cycles on CR123s before I made the switch to 2x18650 and it's still brilliant today. Please let me know and I suspect LED61 may also be concerned.


----------



## LED61

Hey Jim and FleaBag, nice to be back here too!! with the old crowd, mentor, and pioneers of the X-LOLA. I am amazed at the setup. So much so that even though I itched to get Will's pack (I still might sometime soon) this setup got me going good and ready for a long time. 

Yes, I always break in my brand new cells. As you guys are aware, I had a relatively new MN-15 suddenly go dark on me, bad pic posted earlier in this thread. It was not on a fresh set of cells either. But, I use mostly duracell Procells, and when Tom (Silverfox) tested them on high 2.5 amp drain, they were still putting out over 2.3 volts each. They were the best performers of all cells. So that puts the MN21 going at about 6.9 or 6.95 volts on fresh Procells, and quite possibly about 7.8 V on the MN15 ? Jim?? is that possible ? Anyway, I have run the MN21 on Will's 7.5V pack for a few --not many-- hours with a progressive darkened envelope and if I ordered Will's PhD M6 for the MN21 I have been thinking of asking for a 7.0V regulation for the MN21. 

But back to the MN20. Flea Bag, no, I am not really concerned. I have had extensive runtime on an MN20 with no problems whatsoever, fresh new cells every change. It was a duty light back then and zero problems. Now I am running a different MN20 to break in the new Procells and thence it is put back in the spares carrier. I figure Jim has more experience on it but as I recall before the X LOLA, the MN20 was his favorite setup. Will's too. And if something were to happen with an MN20 on fresh 123's, I'm sure Surefire would back their warranty. They are that good.

Sad to see the M6 is no longer in production. I'll never sell mine or my A2-BK-WH. The latter with the FiveMega strion socket is a charm, brilliant white, and I was lucky to buy mine mint from Cue003 with whiter LED's and glow on them. It also has a tail end that can stand the light straight up.

The new LED lights with much improved color and output got me started again here, and I have already seen some of them in action, just ordered a Fury which is on backorder, but believe me the X-LOLA and the A2 with the FM strion socket and bulb take the prize outdoors. No LED can still match the color rendering of such setups. ERR well maybe an MN21 with a PhD M6 at 7.0V might :naughty: My motivation here is the 6.9V of fresh 123's are probably harder than the 7.0V with soft start ?


----------



## js

Flea Bag and LED61,

Hey there guys! Great to see posts from you!

So, one of my MN20's that exploded was an old purple one--but I had never used it before and it popped almost immediately, so I chaulked it up to infant mortality, if you will. SF repaired my turbo head and sent me another MN20, which, while the assy was black with white lettering, was still the "old" design, with the same really high CCT--and GOD what a lovely white beam it was! And I had already put a couple sets of cells through it when IT blew--my PRIZED LA and light! I was so dissapointed. I even posted about it. Here is the first post:



> Alas,
> 
> My most prized lamp assembly, my old-style MN20, exploded last night in my SF M6 Millennium Turbo head, which of course, ruined it.
> 
> I got this MN20 just before SureFire went out of stock on MN20's for many months. It was one of the last old style MN20's made, I suspect. It was not purple, but black with white "MN20" lettering. It had a couple of hours or so of runtime on it, so I thought for sure I was in the clear. I was shocked when it popped. And this, of course, ruined my Turbo Head. Grrrrrr!
> 
> Now I have to send the head back to SF for repair or replacement. Again. This is the 2nd time this has happened to me. The first time wasn't as surprising as it was the first time I had used the particular MN20 that came with my M6, and it obviously had a flaw, and blew up within a minute of turn on. But this MN20 which exploded had more than 2 hours of runtime on it. And it was totally clean and clear--no finger prints or oil or anything. I'm totally sure of that.
> 
> Anyway, I still do have one last old style MN20, a purple one, and I ran it last night in the spoiled turbo head (after emptying the debris out of it and letting the gas dissipate) and it ran fine for two or three minutes. Which is good. But so what? Doesn't mean it also won't explode after an hour or two of running, too.
> 
> I think from now on I will not run the old style MN20's in my M6 anymore. The newer MN20's may be a bit less white (slightly lower CCT) but at least they aren't so prone to explosion.
> 
> Sad. Very sad. My favorite LA, my favorite beam. No more. What a bummer. And I was already somewhat depressed.



So, right now, I have one of the latest MN20 LA's, which SF sent when when they repaired my turbo head AGAIN. And, as posted above, I have one of the old purple MN20's (I traded Lightraven an MN21 for his old-style MN20  ), and it even has a few minutes of runtime (Glad that I re-read the post above! I had forgotten that I took advantage of my already spoiled LA to break-in/test this older purple MN20!). But I doubt I'll use it again. The MN15 is just such a great LA in the M6 w/primaries! I love it! Or, maybe I will, you never know. The MN20 is just as nice! (or nicer, really, at the beginning).

**MORE IMPORTANTLY**

I realized something last night: the starting voltage of CR123A cells is SIGNIFICANTLY dependent on the TEMPERATURE of the cells! If you live in a warm part of the world, and your 123's are at 80F, the starting voltage will be like 10-20 percent higher (I'm guessing) than if you start them up at 65F, or even colder (if it's winter or fall).

So, one thought to "break in" a new set of cells is to _put them in the refridgerator_ (or your whole light), and when you first use the light, it will be cold and the voltage won't run so "hot". For me, this would be easier than swapping out LA's every time you replace the cells. But, obviously, YMMV. So far, I haven't even worried about it, and haven't had a problem--but I'm probably just lucky. I also recall that the last time I changed cells it WAS Fall outside, and I DID run the light OUTDOORS for those critical first 5 minutes (or whatever it is). This setup is my outdoor setup, so, that only makes sense. But . . anyway . . . Oh, and I use Duracell Ultra's, normally. Although, I will switch to the Procells now! (Thanks LED61!)


----------



## Flea Bag

js, LED61, glad to hear none of your newer MN20s have blown up! I've got quite a lot of faith in the robustness of mine and was initially alarmed to hear of someone's blowing up -twice! I've not had the privellege to see an old MN20 actually, but I quite like the wider filament of the newer one, especially when rotated horizontally and used outdoors to light up the ground at middle distances -offers wider coverage.



js said:


> I realized something last night: the starting voltage of CR123A cells is SIGNIFICANTLY dependent on the TEMPERATURE of the cells! If you live in a warm part of the world, and your 123's are at 80F, the starting voltage will be like 10-20 percent higher (I'm guessing) than if you start them up at 65F, or even colder (if it's winter or fall).



That's interesting to know Jim... I just experienced a similar phenomenon when I ran my MN21 (using li-ions though) on cells that were becoming quite hot and the voltages were enough to keep the MN21 running beyond the 20 minutes I was expecting. Once turned off and allowed to cool for 20 minutes, the same cells could no longer start the MN21. In that situation, heat was a friend to allow slightly extended runtimes albeit at temperatures unsafe or unhealthy for my cells.

However, I must admit I never considered temperatures as low as ambient levels to have that much effect on start-up voltage sag. Interesting find!


----------



## cy

LED61 said:


> Sad to see the M6 is no longer in production. I'll never sell mine or my A2-BK-WH.



been out of touch... indeed sad to hear Surefire discontinued M6


----------



## batman

Here's a brainsbuster...I have just recieved a new MN-15 replacement from SF from one which was totally defective from the factory. I put it in the M6 on cells that have been used quite a bit, definately long past "fresh." I figured that would be a safe configuration to run. Well, fired it up for about 45 seconds - then out of curiosity, looked inside the turbohead....SMOKE. Ok, turned it off, afraid to mess with this configuration now. i KNOW that's never normal..should I continue using it and "combat test" it or just be cautious and run only the mn-20/21 LAs in this thing?

Update/edit: I removed the MN-15 to examine it. A yellowish,brownish film now coats the inside of this brand new assembly. I think I'm sticking with the original lamp assemblies from now on, I have less trouble with them-and when I do have trouble, the turbohead and LAs are guaranteed to be warrantied.


----------



## js

As I posted in the very first post of this thread:



> However, please note that SF would not recommend this nor will they want to warrantee an MN15 used in this manner.



HOWEVER . . .

This is NOT normal, and my personal opinion is that this LA failed not because it was overdriven, but because it was defective. If it were me, I'd call SF CS and get a new one sent to you. If your cells were long past fresh, then they weren't delivering as much juice as a brand new, hot, single stack of 123's.


----------



## LED61

Jim, he says it is a replacement bulb called in to replace a defective bulb. That's two in a row. Maybe it is a bad lot out of Surefire ? 

I haven't had any problems at all with mine since that blackening I posted though that replacement lamp came long ago.


----------



## js

LED61,

It's possible to have a bad lot, but it's also not impossible that two LA in a row were bad.

batman,

I'm sure you aren't touching the glass envelope with your fingers, but perhaps someone at the assembly plant DID touch them--first day on the job or whatever. Did you pre-emptively clean the glass part of your LA with isopropyl rubbing alcohol? If not, I would suggest doing this with your NEXT SureFire LA. Just a thought, FWIW.


----------



## js

So, I just had to post this. I was putting in an order to SureFire, deciding what to get, thinking about what lamps I really wanted to always have a backup for, and I got to thinking about the M6 and MN15 vs. MN20. Now I LOVE the MN20--no question--and I have two new style MN20's and one old style, purple one. I only have one MN21, but that doesn't concern me. I almost never use it, and if I burn it out or break it, I'll just order another one and not worry about any delay in getting it. (Although, if I ever learned they were going out of stock permanently, I'd certainly get a spare!) Anyway, so I started thinking that maybe I should think of the MN20 as a backup for the MN15 . . . did I really need to always have a spare MN15 on hand. Well, I was kind of leaning towards "yes", but then I thought I'd just go down and try out the MN20 to refresh my memory of what a lovely beam it has. I swapped in the MN20, and . . . it was kind of dim and yellowing! OH! RIGHT! Of course, my batteries are at the end of their life, so they don't have enough umph to drive the MN20. I watched as the beam got dimmer and dimmer and more yellow by the second. Surely, my batteries were dead now if they weren't before! So, I swap back in the MN15, and can hardly believe my eyes, as a lovely white beam presents itself! What the heck! I knew that this lamp had a nice level discharge curve, and stayed nice and white through most of its runtime, but this was _beyond_. I'm still just really thrilled with this setup. It's crazy! It just continues to satisfy me! And I've seen it ALL, my friends. I made the first 100 Watt USL prototype and tested it (which was the first 100 watt 2D Mag Mod), the M6-R, TigerLight mods with the 1185 on 9 cells, IRC Osram lamps (in USL), Ti-PD-S, LS20, SF L2, . . . I mean, for this setup to still thrill me the way it does really stands out to me. I've gotten rid of all of my lights except for the M6, E2e (with Balrog body--love this light), A2, Arc LS, Arc AAA, and LunaSol 20. I never use the Arcs. My wife uses the Arc LS.

There's only ONE light I dearly wish I had bought when I had the chance and wish I had now: Don's SunDrop. At the time, I just couldn't bring myself to buy another $500 Titanium light. But I wish I had now. That light was something special. IS something special. Ah well.

Anyway, point is that I still *love* this setup: the M6 with MN15. A really great setup.


----------



## LED61

Yes Jim, you're totally right. The setup just goes and goes neat all the while.

Maybe you can find someone who wants to trade a Sundrop for an XR-19C from Don ? It has a clickie and I want to sell it you can use it as a bargaining chip for the Sundrop trade if you'd like.


----------



## js

LED61,

Thanks! I'll keep that in mind! Turns out that the SunDrop is still available in a newer version, so . . . we shall see. I still can't justify it. In fact, I can justify it even LESS than before! LOL! Oh, well.


----------



## batman

Js, I actually didn't try the isopropyle rubbing alchohol..I guess I haven't heard of doing that before. Is it to extend the LA lifespan? Is that something you can do to LAs that already have some hours on them? 

On a side note, over the years from various lamp failures (even 1 really huge MN-21 explosion) and just my general carelessness, a small amount of dust has settled on my M6 reflector, and there are a few smears on the inside of its lens (probably from when SF warrantied the MN-21 failure, I presume they simply cleaned out the turbohead, leaving small traces of dust/a smear or two). Does this minimal type of stuff effect output on a huge powerhouse like the M6? Some lights, like the ol' L1, have frosted lenses and others have heavily textured reflectors to clean up the beam..so my hope is it has no real effect?


----------



## js

batman said:


> Js, I actually didn't try the isopropyle rubbing alchohol..I guess I haven't heard of doing that before. Is it to extend the LA lifespan? Is that something you can do to LAs that already have some hours on them?
> 
> On a side note, over the years from various lamp failures (even 1 really huge MN-21 explosion) and just my general carelessness, a small amount of dust has settled on my M6 reflector, and there are a few smears on the inside of its lens (probably from when SF warrantied the MN-21 failure, I presume they simply cleaned out the turbohead, leaving small traces of dust/a smear or two). Does this minimal type of stuff effect output on a huge powerhouse like the M6? Some lights, like the ol' L1, have frosted lenses and others have heavily textured reflectors to clean up the beam..so my hope is it has no real effect?



batman, the iso cleaning isn't to EXTEND the LA lifespan, really. It's to prevent premature EXPLOSION and catastrophic failure. Finger oil on the glass envelope will react with the glass at high temperatures, resulting in a chemical change in the material which causes it to explode. So, IF there is some finger oil on the envelope (and this is very hard to see even if it is there), then a pre-emptive cleaning with iso will remove it. If there isn't any, then, no harm done--assuming of course you don't get the potting compound super wet with iso and then immediately run the lamp. So, clean carefully and try to avoid wetting the potting and let dry for 5 minutes afterwards just to be sure.

The point is that finger oil on the glass of your LA is BAD BAD BAD. So you should never touch the glass, and if you do you should immediately clean it, and it's never a bad idea to clean a brand new LA just in case someone along the line touched it--or even just to remove dust and other contaminants. The cleaner the better.

As for your M6, SureFire shouldn't have returned your turbo head with smears on the inside of the lens, nor with dust inside the head. If it were me, I would have returned it again and insisted on a pristine turbo head. That said, it will have almost zero effect on the beam from your M6. It's more an aesthetic thing. I hate to see smudges on my lens. Just like I hate to have smears or spatters on my LCD screens. You pretty much don't see most of them in use, but it's more pleasant to have a nice clean screen. However, I also don't get anal about it and clean often. I only clean rarely, and only when needed, and will live with a bit of this sort of thing for a while without getting my panties in a bunch. Still . . . it's pretty much impossible to clean inside the turbo head--don't even try it--you're likely to end up in a worse situation than you started with. So it's nice if SureFire does a good job while they have the thing opened up when it is easy to clean. Or at least do a DECENT job . . .

Just my 2 cents, FWIW.


----------



## batman

Thanks JS! Your advice is well heeded.
This may have been covered in previous posts but, is a qtip or paper towel ok to clean the LA with when using iso, or would something like cotton be better?


----------



## js

When I do it, I use a clean cotton flannel rag. I fold it over once, put it against the iso bottle opening, tip the bottle nice and firmly to wet the cloth in that spot, then put the tip of the LA into that spot, close my fingers around the back of the cloth (and thus around the LA envelope) and rotate it around a bit and move my cloth up and down a bit. But I have also done this with a q tip dipped in iso by holding the LA upside down and cleaning thoroughly with the q tip--you have to rotate the LA to get everything, obviously. The q tip method is a bit more cumbersome. I don't like to use paper towels for this as there so little material between your oily fingers and the glass you are trying to clean, and, I don't know, it just isn't as satisfying an experience for some reason. But, there's no reason that you couldn't use a paper towel. A lot of people do, I'm sure, and it'll work just fine. Anyway, when done, I set the LA aside such that the glass isn't touching anything (I would sometimes use my adjustable arm clip tool--used as a third hand for soldering--and grab the LA by the spring base with the clip, but you could also just lay the thing down on a clean towel or cloth), and let it dry for a few minutes in the open air.

Hope this helps. Oh, and BTW, for cleaning glass, the standard 70 percent Iso is actually better than the 90 percent stuff.


----------



## kelmo

Re-reading this thread has gotten me to replace the light in my truck emergency kit with a M6+M3 bezel+MN10 LA+beam diffuser. You can't go wrong with extended runtime! I swapped out a stock M6 for the before mentioned setup.


----------



## batman

As far as brightness is concerned, is the M6-XLOLA as bright as the M4 LOLA? Any thoughts?


----------



## batman

Sorry to double post it up, but this is news. Surefire IS warranty covering the MN-15 in the M6 as of last week. I got an RMA and am getting a free replacement MN-15 for the M6.. In fact, the rep said that they know most people are having pretty good luck with the MN-15 in the M6. A new lamp assembly for me, only cost is sending the old, burned out MN-15 back to them.
This is a case where honesty paid off and Surefire customer service is great.


----------



## scout24

I'm late to the M6/ MN15 party for sure, but wanted to thank the early adopters and testers of this setup. I've been using it for nightly dog walks for a few days now, and it's sweet... Good throw and spill without being overwhelming, and great color temp. Takes away the worry of chewing through primaries while waiting for a new batch of 2x18650 holders. Definitely adds to the usability of the M6!


----------



## cy

still got M6 but sadly JS's pack has been dead for sometime


----------



## cnjl3

If you are not able to rebuild your JS pack then just get yourself some MN15's and use with the stock M6 battery holder. It really shines! Yeah, it's not the MN21 but it sure beats a dead M6.


----------



## js

batman said:


> Sorry to double post it up, but this is news. Surefire IS warranty covering the MN-15 in the M6 as of last week. I got an RMA and am getting a free replacement MN-15 for the M6.. In fact, the rep said that they know most people are having pretty good luck with the MN-15 in the M6. A new lamp assembly for me, only cost is sending the old, burned out MN-15 back to them.
> This is a case where honesty paid off and Surefire customer service is great.



Wow! This is awesome! I know this post from batman is two years old, but I missed it when it was posted and haven't been back to this thread until just recently. I will edit the first post to reflect this new (to me) info.

cy,

Sorry to hear about your M6-R pack. Sadly, it's the NiMH batteries. Unless you go with the low-self discharge kind, like the eneloop cells, they die from age and sitting around, unless cycled regularly. And the M6-R pack is even worse because the LVR3I regulator is always drawing a small current, so it pretty much doubles the self-discharge rate. If you disassemble your pack, you can cut out the LVR3I regulator and sell it on modders B/S/T. I sold some a couple years ago here: FS: LVR3I PWM regulators. I did not, in that thread, reference wquiles thread on how to change the voltage, but I should have: LVR3I change from 6.8 to 7.5 volts. This would allow people to change the voltage setpoint for different bulbs other than the ones I mentioned in my FS thread.

It's really kind of depressing, honestly. All my stuff. Everything except for the regulated TigerLights I made with the 8 cell AA Sanyo Eneloop packs. All of it is now dead, gone, buried, lost, thrown away. Dozens and dozens of battery packs made from NiMH cells. All dead. Meanwhile, McGizmo lights never die and are collected, hoarded, and sold again on B/S/T and will be for decades to come, probably. *sigh* Not that I am envious at all! LOL! I just regret not designing around a different chemistry. Ah well, probably wasn't an option back when I did all my stuff. But, of all of it, the M6-R packs are the most painful to think about. They took so much work to build. And they're all dead. Most of them died within the first couple years after I made them, I'm sure.

Anyway . . .

CR123A's on the other hand, being Lithium primaries, can sit around for a decade and still be good to go!

And so my SF M6 sits on my kitchen counter next to my microwave, at the ready. I rarely use it, but when I need an outdoor light with throw, it's my go to light. Or if I go into the woods at night, it's my go to light.

And what do I run in it? Why the MN15 of course! I did go back to the MN20 for a bit, just because I figured that since I only used it so rarely that I might as well have more output, but then I put the MN15 back in recently and once again decided that it was more than enough light, the same throw, and more than double the run time. So I kept it in.

I still love this setup. I know there are super bright LED lights now. In fact, I borrowed a Fenix TK35 a couple weeks ago from a co-worker, and I went out with both it and the M6/MN15 combo, and the M6 threw just as far or even farther despite being seriously outclassed in the lumens department. More importantly, in fog and rain, you have a lot less light coming back at your eyes. And even when not in fog and rain--when out in the woods--I always find--and it is just a personal preference thing--but for me personally, I always find that less is more. I like that the M6/MN15 combo is "only" 200 lumens. And I rarely run it constant on. I usually flash it to see stuff farther afield. And it doesn't have a ton of spill or a wide beam to reflect back at me and constrict my pupils. This light, in combination with something like an A2 or (in my case) a McGizmo LunaSol 20 which has a low level flood beam, is my choice for walking in the dark in the woods and fields and trails. Or often, especially if I know the path, I walk in the complete dark and only flash the M6 when needed.

Of course, there are many many LED lights to chose from, and most have a choice of output levels. The TK35, in fact, has four levels. So if you only want a little light, no problem. So, I understand that this setup may seem like a very poor choice to many people. But, still, for me, for outdoor use, I prefer either an incandescent or one of the High CRI Nichia LED's. The Haiku is great outdoors. Except that it can't touch the M6 in the throw department! LOL!

Anyway, just thought I'd post here for all the reasons mentioned, but mostly to say that I still love this setup and still use it.


----------



## Kestrel

js said:


> [...] Anyway, just thought I'd post here for all the reasons mentioned, but mostly to say that I still love this setup and still use it.


Thanks for the update, *js*.

I think this is still an imporant thread for the M6'ers out there, and I still reference it when it could be helpful.
Like this M6'er that recently changed his mind about selling what he thought was an unrelated MN15 when I pointed them to this thread. :thumbsup:



tobrien said:


> Surefire *MN15* turbohead bulb. It was used for maybe 10 minutes total (_at most_) and I have the original packaging and so on for it. This is _intended_ to be used in M3T setups, but you can use it in an M4 with two 17670 cells, or an M3T powered by two 17500s AFAIK (non-IMR?). - *$20*





Kestrel said:


> Just a FYI, the MN15 is a phenomenally useful bulb for the SF M6, and perhaps one of the most efficient incan configurations ever made due to operating on two stacks of 3xCR123's in parallel:
> *The SF M6 X-LOLA: 200 lumens for 2.5 hours*





tobrien said:


> holy cow! Kestrel you are the man as usual! I'll have to keep this MN15 now haha! thank you so much, I honesty didn't know about that config and it never occurred to me (it should've been something I realized on my own before given the M6's battery carrier versus how an M3 is set up)
> thanks man!
> edit: MN15 withdrawn till further notice


----------



## kelmo

I still use my X-LOLA M6. In fact my spares carrier sports an MN15 as well. It's ready to go in my torso pack even as I write. My 1st real experience with this setup was in a corn maze many moons ago. I may have posted that in this thread somewhere! Used it for about two hours that night. If you can find one, get a John Willis SOE holster for it!


----------



## skillet

Still the best Incan setup here at the Berry Household. Sure, I've got brighter in LED and a giant HID but the warm glow of that MN15 melts the heart and pleases the eyes!!


----------



## js

Wow! Thanks so much everyone for your posts here! I too love this setup so much that I have a spare MN15 on hand and at the ready. I think I will buy the spares carrier, actually, to _really_ have a spare MN15 (and batteries) at the ready. Have to put in an order to SureFire anyway.

Kestrel, that's very cool indeed!

I'm so thrilled that others find this setup as great as I do. I only just recently noticed that this thread has over 46,000 views at this point! When I discovered this setup and posted about it, I never figured that it would get the kind of reception that it has gotten! I figured not many people would have my weird like of a _lower output_ option for the M6! LOL! So glad to be wrong on that one, though!

Thanks again everyone!


----------



## AnAppleSnail

I am an LED junkie, but I have started playing with low-output incandescent lights here and there. I didn't have the budget for an M6, but you make it sound awfully nice.

JS, I've been reading some of your phenomenal threads from the start of the LED age. Wow, what a ride. Thank you for sharing what you find!


----------



## 1pt21

I'm just a little confused about all that you wrote in the 1st post, but at the very bottom state: "However, *do not run the MN16 in the M6*. The MN16 is NOT underdriven on a single stack of three 123's, so two parallel stacks will push it too hard, and it might possibly flash at start-up, or have a much foreshortened life." 

Can you explain? I'm sure I'm misunderstanding something is all..

Also is this powered by the stock battery holder with 6x CR123's?

Thanks for any info!!


----------



## js

1pt21 said:


> I'm just a little confused about all that you wrote in the 1st post, but at the very bottom state: "However, *do not run the MN16 in the M6*. The MN16 is NOT underdriven on a single stack of three 123's, so two parallel stacks will push it too hard, and it might possibly flash at start-up, or have a much foreshortened life."
> 
> Can you explain? I'm sure I'm misunderstanding something is all..
> 
> Also is this powered by the stock battery holder with 6x CR123's?
> 
> Thanks for any info!!



1pt21,

First, yes, definitely, this all assumes that the MB20 battery holder is loaded with six CR123A primarily Li-Mn-O2 batteries.

Second, I'm not sure what to explain or what your question is--so please feel free to ask again in different words if I don't address your confusion--but here's the deal in terms of the MN15 and MN16.

The MN15 is the low output lamp assembly (LOLA) for the SF M3T, and the MN16 is the high output lamp assembly (HOLA). The M3T uses a single stack of three CR123A batteries. It is thus nominally a 9 volt light.

Now, the M6 MB20 battery holder takes the six CR123A's and electrically connects them so that there are *two* parallel stacks of three CR123A batteries. Thus it is also nominally a 9 volt light, but each stack of CR123A's only has to deliver half of the current demanded by the lamp. The two stacks share the load, in other words.

The MN15 is nominally a 125 lumen lamp in the M3T, which runs for nominally an hour (if I remember correctly) on the single stack of three CR123A's.

The MN16 is nominally a 250 lumen lamp in the M3T, which runs for nominally 20 minutes on the single stack of three CR123A's.

Now, when you go from a single stack to a double stack, you at least double the runtime (and it turns out you more than double it), and, more importantly _you will deliver a higher voltage to the lamp_. This is because the batteries sag under load (current). The greater the load, the more they sag (lower voltage). The less the load, on the other hand, the less they sag (higher voltage).

So, when running the MN15 in the M6, you will be driving it harder than in the M3T. This, however, is very good, since it is a bit under-driven in the M3T. So in the M6 it is just a bit _over_ driven, making it nice and white and increasing the output noticeably. This was exactly my hope when I tried this combo, and I only tried it because I clearly noticed that it was a bit too under-driven in the M3T.

However . . . the MN16, on the other hand, *is not under-driven* in stock configuration (i.e. in the M3T). So if you run it in the M6, it will be more than just a bit over-driven. It will be a lot over-driven. So you don't want to do this!

And, plus, why would you? The MN20 is nominally the same brightness as the MN16, and it is precisely designed to work in the M6. So you'd use that.

I just wanted to warn people that you need to be very careful when putting lamps into different lights than they were intended for! LOL! It can go horribly wrong. Poof. $25 down the drain in a millisecond. Or worse. An explosion inside the head of your light. So, even though the M3T and M6 are both nominally 9 volt lights, their lamp assemblies are not interchangeable.

Except for the happy accident of the MN15! Which is why I posted about it here and why I was so excited about it.

Clear?


----------



## js

AnAppleSnail said:


> I am an LED junkie, but I have started playing with low-output incandescent lights here and there. I didn't have the budget for an M6, but you make it sound awfully nice.
> 
> JS, I've been reading some of your phenomenal threads from the start of the LED age. Wow, what a ride. Thank you for sharing what you find!



Thanks! I don't know how much a used M6 is now on B/S/T, but I imagine the price is significantly down from what it was even two years ago. Still probably not exactly cheap, though! LOL! And I don't know how often they show up for sale. But might be worth keeping an eye out for one if you're interested and the price is low enough.


----------



## 1pt21

Thank you for that thorough explanation!

I understand completely now. Looks like I'm ordering a new bulb to add to my M6 array...


Sent from my iPhone using Candlepowerforums


----------



## stienke

Great thread , I use a LF M3T-HO bulb in my M6 for some years now and it works perfect , nice round spot and a white beam.
I think it's almost the same as with a MN15.

GJR:wave:


----------



## js

stienke said:


> Great thread , I use a LF M3T-HO bulb in my M6 for some years now and it works perfect , nice round spot and a white beam.
> I think it's almost the same as with a MN15.
> 
> GJR:wave:



stienke,

I just looked that lamp up on the LF webstore and this is what they say:



> HO-M3T High Output 9V, 380 Lumens High Output Lamp Assembly
> (For 3 x CR123A or 2 x 3.7V Rechargeable Battery, M Series Flashlights)
> 
> -High Output Ultra High Pressure Xenon Lamp (380 Lumens)
> *-Highest Achievable Colour Temperature (3325K)*
> -Unique Filament Design
> -Precision Machined Aluminum Lamp Assembly
> -Every Lamp Assembly is Pre-Focused for the Ultimate Spot
> -Compatible with all Flashlights that use the M Series Xenon Lamp Assemblies.
> 
> 
> Compatible with:
> 
> SurefireR
> M3 using 3 x CR123A
> M3 using 2 x 3.7V Rechargeable
> 
> Runtime (CR123A): ~40 min



The bit in bold is what worries me. I think you may have just been lucky (at least so far) with your particular lamp, because if it is running at 3325K in the M3T on a single stack of 3 123's, then it will be driven significantly harder on two parallel stacks of 3 123's. I think there's serious risk of insta-flash or other failure mode, in general, if people run this lamp in the M6.

Plus, it is also in between the 60 min runtime (in M3T) of the MN15 and 20 minute runtime of the MN16, and so wouldn't exhibit as much of a nice flat (relatively) discharge curve in the M6 as the MN15 does. It'd probably have something on the order of 90-100 minutes of runtime instead of 150 minutes. Of course, it'd certainly be _brighter_. While it lasted.

And finally, if the spot is round, then it means it doesn't throw as far as the MN15. In order to get the most throw out of a transverse filament lamp (which all of the SF and LF lamps are) then you must have an oval hot spot.

This is fine, of course! Throw isn't everything! And the MN15 beam is tight, tight, tight. So I'm not knocking a nice round spot or anything. Just pointing out that you will lose some throw this way.


----------



## stienke

Maybe I'm a lucky guy indeed , but I see it can run on two RCR's and I thought two stacks of CR123's would not give a problem because the underload is under 8.4V I think.
For runtime the MN15 is a winner and for throw I can't see much different by the naked eye (52 years old!!,hahaha) , I use the LF bulb because the MN15 is hard to find here in Europe and very expensive , I know the quality of Surefire bulbs are great and the LF bulb gets a little black within a few hours but overall they are not bad at all.
I have some spare reflectors so if the bulb explodes and mess up my reflector I can change it and ready to go , but so far so good.


----------



## js

stienke,

Mmmm. Right. Maybe that high CCT over-drive is for two rechargeable cells and the primaries have less voltage? I could look into it, but it's kind of moot. If you've had good luck with this arrangement, perhaps others will as well, and since you say the MN15 is a lot more expensive and harder to find, there's obviously good reason to go for it.

Thanks for the info!

Everyone,

I realized that my initial post was none to clear on my reasoning for why the MN15 might be perfect in the M6 since it was underwhelming in the M3T. I added that info, plus a couple pictures and a digression or two.


----------



## Bullzeyebill

When I fire up my M6 with the MN15, I use one of mdcod's 2x18650 battery packs. Using bounce with a light meter and comparing it to other incan lights I own, I know that it at least reaches 200 beautiful lumens. Thanks js for revitalizing this thread. :thumbsup:

Bill


----------



## 1pt21

Bullzeyebill said:


> When I fire up my M6 with the MN15, I use one of mdcod's 2x18650 battery packs. Using bounce with a light meter and comparing it to other incan lights I own, I know that it at least reaches 200 beautiful lumens. Thanks js for revitalizing this thread. :thumbsup:
> 
> Bill



Even better now that I know I can run this bulb on one of my rechargeable packs as well!! :twothumbs

LOVE seeing old threads like this revived, they're the root of CPF indeed! I have a bunch of bulbs for my M6 and this one certainly would have been overlooked if not for this thread honestly...


----------



## OscarTheDog

I stumbled on this thread the other day so i went out and bought an MN15 received it today now i am waiting for darkness. So Bill your saying i can also run this bulb with this mdcod's 2x18650 battery packs. Dang i may need to get a backup MN15


----------



## skillet

OscarTheDog said:


> Bill your saying i can also run this bulb with this mdcod's 2x18650 battery packs. Dang i may need to get a backup MN15


That is exactly what he is saying!! I keep mine loaded just like that with primaries for backup when heading out to the creek/river/lake.


----------



## Brigadier

OscarTheDog said:


> I stumbled on this thread the other day so i went out and bought an MN15 received it today now i am waiting for darkness. So Bill your saying i can also run this bulb with this mdcod's 2x18650 battery packs. Dang i may need to get a backup MN15



I run my M6 with an MN15 powered by a Phd-M6, with a loaded MB20 ready to go as reserve.


----------



## kelmo

I busted out the M6 tonight. The MN15 LA throws a brilliant white beam without the dust glare you get with 500+ lumen LED throwers. 

I'm old, my flashlight is old but we still can hold our own!

Thank you JS!!!


----------



## js

kelmo,

Thanks for the post! I'm thrilled people are still using this configuration. It's definitely stood the test of time for me, and it's the one long-throwing, outdoor use incandescent light that I kept. I got rid of all my TigerLights and mag mods and etc., but the SureFire M6 is still one of my grail lights, and has stood the test of time for me. It's feels good, it looks good, it works really well, throw is incredible, and best of all, it does NOT give you the shine-back glare of LED lights. The MN15 definitely lacks for total lumens, relative to other lights, but man does it THROW, and when used carefully, it allows you to keep some of your dark adaptedness--or rather I should say it won't sun-blind you with all sorts of shine-back.



> This is the illumination tool of the true outdoorsman. Not as clumsy or random as an LED blaster; an elegant flashlight for a more civilized age. For over ten years, the hotwire guys were the guardians of heat and inefficiency in the old CPF. Before the bright times . . . before the Cree LED's and their spawn.



Something from a movie I saw once. :thinking: Not sure which one. :devil:

Just kidding! No offense intended to anyone who uses LED's outdoors! I do myself, also. So, please, no flame-wars! Just having some fun with the "old flashlight old CPFer" comment (apropos to me, at least) and a Star Wars quote.

But I will say that on a foggy and/or rainy night, outdoors in the woods, I really like having my M6 with MN15 with me. However, I will also have my Haiku and at least one other light with me as well. But, just saying that in such weather, a long throwing, 200-275 lumen incan is my illumination tool of choice. Just my personal preference, though.


----------



## LED61

Hello there Jim and crew!!!

I have been away for much too long from the whole forum, but recently catched up on the last posts. I am so glad everyone is using their setups with no problems.

And, very glad Surefire now has a warranty for the MN15 in the M6. Guys, we owe this in no small part to Jim, I´m pretty sure his endorsement counts a lot at Surefire, thanks Jim.

So now I SHOULD do away with my invention to "break in" my new cells with an MN20 lamp before the MN15, but ever since my incident with the darkened lamp (pictured earlier in this thread) I have adopted this practice with no issues. God forbid something happening to my turbohead. Besides, as I mentioned earlier a little time now and then with an MN20 and new 123´s does not hurt anything. And the lamp rides in my spares carrier anyway.

As for field use, my M6 has been largely replaced by a Surefire Fury. Only because of size, economy, and maybe a little more brightness. But the incan love will forever reign in my book. Like my collection of square and black A2´s with the FiveMega Strion socket and bulb. It´s not like the M6 is a museum piece or a shelf queen nowadays by any means, but it is so treasured. Same reason I now carry a Glock instead of a .357 revolver. Lighter, more firepower, and more convenient. But my love for revolvers will always be there.

Speaking of warranties, does anyone know if Surefire is still making the lamps and spare turboheads with no problems ? what if something were to happen can we still get a warranty on these M6´s ?


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## kelmo

Used it again taking my kids trick or treating. It was wet, drizzle coming down and the beam was perfect!


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## scout24

One year bump... Used it dog walking tonight. Sits with some others in a cabinet by my back door, why it gets overlooked is beyond me. Nice, reassuring handful with gloves on, and the sweetest white throwy SF beam. Still awesome!!! :thumbsup:


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## skillet

This thread needs to stay in view.. Been hard not to pull the trigger on another M6 at the prices they have been selling at lately even on auction type site. Brighter is definitely not better most of the time. Don't get me wrong, the WOW factor still impresses and has its place. I would encourage anyone to find out what all the talk is about concerning the MN15 in a M6!


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## Bullzeyebill

Yes, the MN15 in the M6 is just perfect. I've used it in my M6 with two 18650's, and now with the higher mAh 18650's its even better.

Bill


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## Minimoog

I have just ordered the 2x18650 battery carrier to use with my M6 (had that since 2006). How is the runtime and output compared to primary cells?



Bullzeyebill said:


> Yes, the MN15 in the M6 is just perfect. I've used it in my M6 with two 18650's, and now with the higher mAh 18650's its even better.
> 
> Bill


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## Bullzeyebill

Never used CR123's, but if you do the math they would be about equal watt hour wise, though I would give the edge to the 18650's for holding voltage better. This using 3400 mAh 18650's. 

Bill


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## Minimoog

Bullzeyebill said:


> Never used CR123's, but if you do the math they would be about equal watt hour wise, though I would give the edge to the 18650's for holding voltage better. This using 3400 mAh 18650's.
> 
> Bill



Thanks Bill, that's good news indeed. Just about had it with chewing through primary cells, they seem such a waste too.


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## batman

My first concern is making sure Surefire still warranties the MN-15 running in the M6, because it is an expensive lamp assembly. Surefire customer service told me in 2012 or so that they did warranty the M6 w/MN15 combination, but still..I'm not sure if I totally believe their customer service dude "Mike" from back then. 

2nd, you better make sure Surefire still has the Millenium series turboheads in inventory, because if you instapoof any incan inside that thing, it's going to require warranty service. The turbohead is not user servicable. 

My third concern is that I blew 2 or 3 MN-15s in my M6 back to back the last time I tried that combo. I'm convinced an LED drop in like the Malkoff MD60 is a better choice, but it's out of production and Gene has said there are no plans to make that module again. 

I guess I've gone back to the purist MN20 w/primaries approach to things for now. Which means I will not be using my M6 very often. It's sitting in my closet like the arm to the terminator.


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## scout24

A little humble M6 MN15 love...


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## Bullzeyebill

batman said:


> My third concern is that I blew 2 or 3 MN-15s in my M6 back to back the last time I tried that combo.



When you say "combo" do you mean 6 CR123's or two 18650's? If 18650's, what brand, mAh, and chemistry? Thanks, just trying to get clarification.

Bill


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## batman

Bullzeyebill said:


> When you say "combo" do you mean 6 CR123's or two 18650's? If 18650's, what brand, mAh, and chemistry? Thanks, just trying to get clarification.
> 
> Bill



In my case, cr123a primary cells.


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## batman

Almost four years later, "Mike" still works the phones at Surefire customer service. I called Surefire yesterday to talk warranty hypotheticals just like I did in 2012. He said if the MN-15 dies in the M-6, that's not a warranty claim because lamp assemblies aren't covered (I know there are some exceptions). But if the MN-15 literally explodes inside the turbohead(It happens!) then Surefire will warranty repair/replace the turbohead(trust me let them do it, its like terminator eye surgery). However, since the M6 is discontinued there is no guarantee how long the remaining turboheads will remain in Surefire inventory. Keep in mind I'm not exactly giving an exact rendition of the conversation, just a good ol fashion Oklahoma summary. That means your taking your chances in my book, but then again its always that way with Surefire. It's not Rolex or Vertu where they will re-fabricate any part of your device for life. What I'm hearing is that once inventory is out your only option is to complain about it on the internet(as we/I often do).


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## scout24

Batman- Thanks for doing the legwork to reaffirm the M6/ MN-15/ Turbohead warranty situation. Here's hoping it's never needed!


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## batman

No problem Scout24. I should renege my comment about complaining on the internet if Surefire inventory runs out of parts. Because, if or when Surefire lets that happens in the future, I think it's possible they would still be able to help, no hassle at all. If they can no longer replace and cannot repair your M6 equipemnt, they have been known to just send you the upgraded version of other discontinued lights sent in for RMA. I'm just shooting in the dark here but I wouldn' be surprised with Surefire.


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## Kestrel

No dog in this fight, but if the MN15 makes the M6 more useful I say 'go for it'. 
While LA's do fail, I suspect that the incidence of actual bulb explosions is very very rare.
And then actually doing enough damage to make the turbohead unusable & unrepairable, a long chain of events to happen certainly.
If I had an M6 w/ CR123 primaries, this would most likely be my #1 bulb. :thumbsup:


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## Bullzeyebill

Js warned about touching the bulb, that oil on the bulb could lead to a catastrophic failure. Use alcohol to clean the bulb prior to turning the LA on. Just a precaution.

Bill


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## Greenbean

Thanks to this thread I went and scored a M6 from an auction site for barely over 1.5bills. Just a week or so ago,
Great condition just needed some cleaning and lube, Dropped in a new MN15 and it's great.
Then got my FM 2 x 18650 adapter in and can't wait to get back home and check it out. 

Now hunting for another M6 and an M4 because stupid me sold them a ways back.


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## js

Hey everyone! Lots been going on in my life over the last three years. Work at the accelerator was crazy, as I was short staffed and had to cover the shortfall myself, along with all my other responsibilities. That kept me busy (and somewhat dissatisfied with my life), and then after I decided to sell my house, leave the lab, and start looking for another job, that (as you can well imagine) also has kept me busy. So, I've not logged into CPF for many months, but I just did so now to change my email address, and I saw that this thread had some entries. Very cool! I'm thrilled that there are still people using this combo (and incans in general, also, of course).

I still have this setup, and I still love it. I don't use it much these days, but it's nice to have, and when I do use it, I really appreciate it, especially when the weather is bad.

batman, I'm surprised that you experienced back to back failures of MN15's with six primaries in the MB20 holder. I've had some MN15 lamps that didn't last as long as others, but none that have insta-flashed or blown up. And none that lasted less than 15 hours, I think (although I'm only guessing at that figure).

Anyway . . .

I have noticed that M6's can be had for very reasonable prices these days, and a MN15 lamp is also not going to set you back much, so for a very affordable sum of money, one can own this combo and try it out. I highly recommend it if you think you will need a flashlight for outdoors (especially in poor weather conditions). It's a nice addition to the arsenal of lights. It won't replace LED lights, to be sure, but you might be surprised at what a nice addition it is to your LED lights!


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## kelmo

Hey js! Happy New Year. Whose going to find the God Particle now? I still use my M6 X-LOLA especially in the winter months. M3, E2e, and E1e too! I have enough LAs and more than a few backup incans to last me the rest of my life. I will always be an incan man at heart.

Develop the quantum flashlight. A light that uses the filaments and batteries of the multiverse. Excuse my Hollywood understanding of quantum physics.

kelmo


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## scout24

Hard to believe the last post here was seven months ago. I just received an M6-CB in the mail today, to go with the regular bezeled one I already own. There is a spare KT-4 in the basement just in case, but for the cost of a battery carrier and a few bulbs I got a complete light. It may not be the brightest out there, but it's very satisfying to use. Especially with the MN15 or 20! MN-21 is nice for showing off, and is impressive, but for sustained use the lower power bulbs are just the ticket. Hope there's still some M6 love out there. :wave:


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## Illum

After rereading the entire thread it made me regret selling the M6 body. I managed to operate the MN15 currently with a Solarforce 2x18650 body mated to a LF C to M collar then threaded that onto an Surefire M3 head. Doesn't look pretty, but its got a rear clicky and has a belt clip. It sips power, not very bright to today's standards, but a nice yard searchlight none the less 

The donkey **** form factor prevents it from being carried however, too long. with the M6 body at least a Mdocod's 2x18650 side by side holder would have made it extremely ergonomic


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## kelmo

Hello fellow incan fanatics!

I just picked up another M6 and it came with the old purple MN20 LA. The first thing I did was swap it out for an MN15 LA. This light is so satisfying. Big in the hand with that gorgeous white oblong hotspot. It's funny that the Titan Plus in my pocket on paper outputs more lumens than my "Magnasaurus." Its a good thing I have a lot of batteries to feed the beast! I'll have to dig out my John Willis holster and attach it to my backpack!!!

Shine on,

kelmo


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## skillet

Glad to see this thread back in focus. I was just using the M6 w/MN15 night before last investigating what I thought was a skunk but was a grouchy 'possum.. I keep going back to this setup time and time again.... I've recently built a variant that runs on 26650's.. You talk about run time.. I have so many LED powered light but for around the house and bump in the night, I continually reach for the incan.


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## mcm308

The devil on my right shoulder keeps telling me to buy another M6. I loved the way the M6 felt and it wasn't top heavy in my back pocket!

Sent from my SM-N975U using Candlepowerforums mobile app


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## ampdude

This thread is great, but something about it rubs me the wrong way. The only ACCEPTABLE way to use an M6 is with an MN21.
The MN15 is like firing .22lr out of a Desert Eagle.
I'll probably still do it though.


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## Bullzeyebill

Talk to js.

Bill


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## 325addict

I have another addition to this thread: an XX-LOLA  

Make sure to have a FM G4 bi-pin adapter, add a WA1336U (rated 6V / 0.64A / 525 hours) so overdriving it to 7.4V is no problem, current will rise a bit but not to over 0.7A which in theory will yield 5 HOURS of runtime if combined with 2X 18650 (3500mAh).
I used this combo a full winter as a bike light, and finally the bulb died, fairly black. But it lasted dozens of hours for sure.


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## cy

blast from the past .. still have my old M6 which has not seen daylight for sometime
big time fun when the JS pack was still alive ..


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## Kestrel

One of my all-time favorite CPF threads; always get a smile from seeing an update.


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## kelmo

Kestrel said:


> One of my all-time favorite CPF threads; always get a smile from seeing an update.



I'm with you raptor man!!!


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## LED61

Greetings everyone! Have not logged on for a long time. Still using my M6 with MN15. It just goes on and on. I do however “break in” my new batteries with an MN20. Still think brand new they are too much for the MN15. After a little use I put the X LOLA right back in.


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## Bullzeyebill

I might have mentioned this some timer ago. I have used the MN15 with two 18650's in an M6 and find that it also gives good runtime. Quite bright and years ago I did some run time tests using a light meter and bounce.

Bill


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## js

Kestrel said:


> One of my all-time favorite CPF threads; always get a smile from seeing an update.



That's so cool to hear! I'm so surprised this thread is still alive!

But maybe I shouldn't be? Of all my incandescent lights that I kept--and there were only two--this was one, and it is still alive and well, sitting on my dresser, along with a spares carrier with 6 batteries and a spare lamp. I have either this lamp (MN15) or the MN20 (new version). And I still love the light from the M6 when it's foggy or rainy, over most LED lights.


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## LED61

You were always my mentor and I learned so much from your posts Jim. I too have a collection of A2´s and two M6´s as my only incandescents. I have Will´s Phd-M6 that I use with the MN20 on one, an MN15 with 123´s on the other. On the A2´s I have Fivemega´s Strion sockets and bulbs, which give it so much brilliant white regulated power. Both lights are keepers !! Glad to see you here.


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## :)>

This setup or ones like it was one that I always coveted... the M6 was the king for a long time but was too expensive to run until things like this were discovered. 250 Incandescent lumens from a Surefire turbo head is still solid and something I would like to see.


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## Owen

What is going on here? Any of y'all still using a setup like this?
I've still got a Millenium turbohead that may go up for trade, but if anyone wants a couple of Lumens Factory HO-M3T LAs, you're welcome to them. Kinda between the MN15 and MN16, but with a round spot like a N2. 
Never used the M6, 'cause it felt huge to my stubby fingers. N2/SRTH and HO-M3T/KT4 with bored Z3 and M3 bodies, then HO-M3T or MN21/KT4 with Leef C to M bodies were what I stuck with(after frying a couple of MN16 on 2x18650).
Seems like a loooong time ago!


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## Greenbean

Owen said:


> but if anyone wants a couple of Lumens Factory HO-M3T LAs, you're welcome to them.



PM sent, 

I'll take em off your hands... :twothumbs


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