# pepper spray



## taiji (Mar 7, 2006)

here in Portland it seems that it is fashionable for roving teens of up to 40 strong to beat up bicyclist and anybody else that they feel they want to beat up for sport. 
I am thinking of getting pepper spray for self protection and need your advise. 
Which one? Any particular brand better than others? Mist or stream? 
I know nothing of them. Thanks in advance and all input considered.


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## CroMAGnet (Mar 7, 2006)

taiji said:


> here in Portland it seems that it is fashionable for roving teens of up to 40 strong to beat up bicyclist and anybody else that they feel they want to beat up for sport.
> I am thinking of getting pepper spray for self protection and need your advise.
> Which one? Any particular brand better than others? Mist or stream?
> I know nothing of them. Thanks in advance and all input considered.


I found this link to be pretty good.
http://www.personalarms.com/pepper_shot/pepper_shot_assorted.htm

also www.tigerlight.net
I have two tigerlights 

spray is typically better for novice use than stream. 

but DEFINATELY get the $5 handbook that places selll with pepper spray purchases. You'll learn a lot.


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## greenLED (Mar 7, 2006)

FoxLabs


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## CroMAGnet (Mar 7, 2006)

Nice website Foxlabs has. Looks like good stuff. 

Micheal Teig told me of one of the big things that makes the Tigerlight so effective, in fact 100% effective, is the element of surprise.

So you wanna know how to be prepared and how to use the weapon.


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## VWTim (Mar 7, 2006)

Definetly go with Fox 5.3 OC, great stuff. Not sure where in PDX you are, but last I knew Lightning Arms stocks Fox products. www.lightningarms.com just have to call them and see what they have.

*edit* I normally carry a 2oz flip top cone pattern.


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## magic79 (Mar 7, 2006)

Oregon is a "must issue" concealed handgun permit state.

If you're not a felon, you simply need to apply.


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## VWTim (Mar 7, 2006)

magic79 said:


> Oregon is a "must issue" concealed handgun permit state.
> 
> 
> If you're not a felon, you simply need to apply.



Yes, Oregon is "shall issue" state, but unless the poster is ready to carry a gun and the responsibilies surronding it another means of less leathal might be good. I'd also recommend checking into any OC classes. I know OFA in Brownsville puts them on, and I'd imagine the Public Safety Training Center in SE puts them on too.


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## magic79 (Mar 7, 2006)

VWTim said:


> Yes, Oregon is "shall issue" state, but unless the poster is ready to carry a gun and the responsibilies surronding it another means of less leathal might be good. I'd also recommend checking into any OC classes. I know OFA in Brownsville puts them on, and I'd imagine the Public Safety Training Center in SE puts them on too.


 
Absolutely agree on all points...just another option.

PSTC in Clackamas is a tremendous facility and provides the necessary training to be competent. I couldn't recommend them more highly.


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## TooManyGizmos (Mar 7, 2006)

Why not also move-on one step beyond Tai Chi in the martial arts ? and carry pepper spray . .

Walk softly & carry big stick

.


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## Grubbster (Mar 7, 2006)

taiji said:


> here in Portland it seems that it is fashionable for roving teens of up to 40 strong to beat up bicyclist and anybody else that they feel they want to beat up for sport.


If you are attacked by that many people and whip out a can of pepper spray, you had better use the whole can while you are able. Because they are sure to get it from you and use the remainder of it on you while beating the crap out of you!
Really, I am not sure how to respond to such an attack, but it seems that hoseing a few of them with pepper might just turn their "fun" into more "frenzied anger". I think I would work on trying to stay out of a situation like that.


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## Bravo25 (Mar 7, 2006)

> I am not sure how to respond to such an attack, but it seems that hoseing a few of them with pepper might just turn their "fun" into more "frenzied anger"





An exhaust on the back of the bike that dumps Fox Lab spray like the old mesquito foggers, and peddle like crazy :laughing: :nana:


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## Lee1959 (Mar 7, 2006)

Pepper spray is good, if you can, get the stuff with dye in it to mark the person also. For walking I carry an Irish Blackthorn walking stick, I started when I hurt my knee and continued afterwards. Took classes in Irish stick fighting and it is a rather handy addition and makes a non-lethal option to go with my CCW. 

One thing about pepper spray, be careful of leaving it in a car in summer. My wife did this last summer and it exploded unknown to either of us. It got all over my sun glasses, and it was hellish when I put my glasses on and got it in my eyes. That stuff DOES work!! lol


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## NeonLights (Mar 7, 2006)

If you're dealing with a gang of 40 teenagers intent on pulling you off your bike and beating you up (does this really happen?) then your best bet for pepper spray would be to keep 3 or 4 of the crowd/riot control OC "grenades" in a backpack along with a gasmask and start lobbing them as you make your getaway. Anything short of that with those odds, you're hosed. FWIW Brigade Quartermasters sells the OC grenades and gas masks.

-Keith


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## taiji (Mar 7, 2006)

NeonLights said:


> (does this really happen?)
> 
> -Keith




Sadly it does. http://www.katu.com/stories/83874.html

Anyway, I think that any thing that will help to level the field is welcomed. To be able to do so from 10 feet provides for a great advantage. 

Thanks all.


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## JasonC8301 (Mar 7, 2006)

If its such a big group, forget pepper spray in 2 or 4 ounce containers. You will just **** off a few of them. Fox Labs makes a few 6 oz grenades and maybe pack 4 or 5 of those and a gas mask. A M249 SAW with Surefire suppressor and lightening system with 4 or 5 X 200 round drums of ammo would be a better solution (with knowledge of how to use it), but who wants to bike around with an extra 65 pounds....let alone the law suit following the massacre. 

I wonder where those kids parents are?


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## NeonLights (Mar 7, 2006)

Not to downplay the seriousness of the attack, but

"On a recent Friday night, Jason Maxfield and his wife were riding their bikes near the corner of Northeast Going and Garfield Streets when they were set upon by a group of between 30 and 40 teens."

Seems to be the report of the victims who appear to be the only witnesses. Victims in this sort of attack can often exagerate the numbers of the attackers if they are in a group. It does seem to be a problem, and even 8 or 10 against one or two aren't very good odds. 

I'd say situational awareness would help more than anything else, especially if riding a bike. If you see a group of young ruffians that look potentially aggressive (or just any group of teens) start pedaling in the opposite direction immediately. They won't be able to catch you if they are on foot. Spray a couple of them with OC spray and you'll likely get beat worse by the ones who weren't sprayed.

-Keith


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## Makarov (Mar 7, 2006)

Hmm, is this the same thing as the brits call "happy slapping"? 
Usually there's a videocamera included in the deal, these videos then ends up on the net. I've heard of incidents here in Norway, but it hasn't been a big problem. 

What about a baton(guess you'll need classes) as well as the OC, showing that you're not an easy victim could be enough to stop the crowd.


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## AJ_Dual (Mar 7, 2006)

Not much to add.

But I definitely agree. +1 on Fox Labs.

Get the directional stream model. A fog may blow back in your face incapacitating you. Pay for one or two inert practice cans so you can become comfortable with the stream's power and distance.


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## Santelmo (Mar 7, 2006)

Hello sifu!

Interestingly enough, just on tonight's news, a large container cargo truck hit the center aisle of a major thoroughfare in Manila because the driver was trying to avoid being hit by rocks thrown by street kids. The kids do this as a means of petty extortion; to force the drivers to throw coins at them. But this is just the latest M.O. of young idle minds with no outlet for their adolescent energies, also called "tripping" here. 

I've nothing to add except for the the pepper spray "grenades" like the model AJ Dual said above could provide some measure of distance/confusion for you to escape such a situation, as US laws or the sheer number of your attackers might not be on your favor if and when it should happen to you. 

Be safe, ingat ka (take care)!


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## carrot (Mar 7, 2006)

There is simply no way a can of pepper spray will help you against 40 attackers... not even ten. A pepper spray grenade might be good, but if they're already attacking you, you'll get caught in the blast. You might want to develop some immunity to pepper spray (eg, trying it on yourself) before using it like this, or else you'll be as incapacitated as they are.

But of course, as NeonLights says, situational awareness is probably the safest answer.


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## HighLight (Mar 7, 2006)

Make sure the pepper spray cannister sprays in a mist or fog pattern. The stream type spray is useless against a crowd. Also its very easy for the wind to blow this stuff back into your own eyes. This happened to me once when I was emptying an expired container.( they do have a shelf life ) and I can confirm this stuff is nasty when it gets in your eyes. Also be aware that pepper spray is sometimes not effective against someone under the influence of certan illegal drugs.


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## taiji (Mar 7, 2006)

Santelmo said:


> Be safe, ingat ka (take care)!




Salamat, Pare!

It looks like I am going to go with Foxlabs oc. I go to the park in the mornings most days to practice tai chi and bagua so my exposure is high. So far tweakers and lunatics have not bothered me much. To avoid going because of the possibility of being victimized is to already be a victim. I am proficient with batons and sticks but avoid using those due to the possibility of blood spatter, so pepper spray it is.

Thank you all for your advise.


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## HighLight (Mar 7, 2006)

taiji said:


> Salamat, Pare!
> 
> I've ordered some Police Magnum for my wife to practice on me to help with her aim and my tolerance.



You are joking..right? :huh2:


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## taiji (Mar 7, 2006)

I fully intend on being sprayed. Buckets of water and wipes at the ready of course. But I may chicken out at the last minute at any rate I will post.

EDIT - came to my senses and realized that empty bravado will cause great pain.


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## 357 (Mar 7, 2006)

taiji said:


> here in Portland it seems that it is fashionable for roving teens of up to 40 strong to beat up bicyclist and anybody else that they feel they want to beat up for sport.
> I am thinking of getting pepper spray for self protection and need your advise.
> Which one? Any particular brand better than others? Mist or stream?
> I know nothing of them. Thanks in advance and all input considered.



Pepper spray won't stop a group of bad people from attacking you. Its limited to a few seconds worth of bursts, depending on the exact size of the canister.

I'd say its okay for 1 attacker if you are training in proper use, but the stopping power varies greatly (some people it barely affects, others it stops relatively quickly).

With this said, I uses Fox Labs.

But since you live in a state that has "must issue" carry, why not think abouts a firearm AND pepper spray (two lines of defense depending on the level of threat). Assuming you're willing to learn the safety and responsiblity of firearm ownership.


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## greenLED (Mar 7, 2006)

getting hit by OC is no laughing matter :green:


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## cyberhobo (Mar 7, 2006)

:devil: FOX Five Point Three mit da stream ala cop top.:devil: 

Use only in self-defense.


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## Lee1959 (Mar 7, 2006)

Lots of water to rinse it, dont rub it it without water just makes it worse without the water, I have accidently been there an would not do it willingly again btw... Mine was perhaps worse because I didnt know what it was, or what happened or how to take care of it right away. But I would not do it again willingly.


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## taiji (Mar 7, 2006)

greenLED said:


> getting hit by OC is no laughing matter :green:




I have a feeling that this will be turning into some sort of circus. That said I will edit my earlier post. GreenLED is right, it is no laughing matter. 


Thanks all.


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## Mike Painter (Mar 7, 2006)

taiji said:


> I fully intend on being sprayed. Buckets of water and wipes at the ready of course. But I may chicken out at the last minute at any rate I will post.
> 
> EDIT - came to my senses and realized that empty bravado will cause great pain.



Good because water does not do a lot of good and is hard to get into your lungs (unless you're drunk)

Buy some Habanero peppers and est one to get sdome idea with no harm.
I have an oil I use in cooking that is the same rating as most of the sprays (1,000,000) and a film of it oin the back of a spoon rinsed under hot water will also give you an idea of what to expect.


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## gadget_lover (Mar 8, 2006)

When I got my OC permit I had to walk through a room that had tear gas sprayed in it. The idea was 1) so I would recognize it if it was discharged by accident 2) So I'd have empathy and be less likely to use it frivolously 3) so i'd not panic if caught by some blow-back during use.

I'd at least get some taste of it so you know what to expect when the spray blows back in your face. Keep in mind that mace or pepper spray is designed to slow your attacker so you can have a head start running. You have to keep your cool to do that.

The crowd aspect is very worrysome. The use of pepper spray is not as intimidating (to the other attackers) as a gunshot is. They won't necessarily slow their rush just because they see their buddies stop, rub their eyes and yell. They might still oevertake you.

They do make large canisters as "bear spray". These are designed (IIRC) to shoot further. They might be more effective at pushing back a group.

To stop a crowd, a firearm would probably be more effective IF you are willing t o go that route. The noise (combined with the damage) would be more likely to slow the rush. Personally, I worry about guns. Too easy to make a mistake; too hard to reverse the mistakes. There are times when they are still a valid tool.

The pepper spray does no good if you don't have it at hand when you need it. You can't store it in a pack or purse or locked holder. When I'm in an area where it might be needed (parking garage in San Francisco at 2 AM, anyone? ) it's in my hand.

Daniel


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## Mike Painter (Mar 8, 2006)

gadget_lover said:


> When I got my OC permit I had to walk through a room that had tear gas sprayed in it. The idea was 1) so I would recognize it if it was discharged by accident 2) So I'd have empathy and be less likely to use it frivolously 3) so i'd not panic if caught by some blow-back during use.
> 
> I'd at least get some taste of it so you know what to expect when the spray blows back in your face. Keep in mind that mace or pepper spray is designed to slow your attacker so you can have a head start running. You have to keep your cool to do that.
> 
> Daniel



Don't compare tear gas or mace with pepper spray. 
In the past Prison guards typically did not wear masks because tear gas can be "ignored". I've bben through gas classes in the past and it was nothing compared to what you experience with even food grade pepper spray.

I know tear gas and mace can be of little effect but other than a few comments here I've never heard that any human can ignore the effects.

Even the people who eat habeneros on a regular basis take little bites and tend to cry.


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## Santelmo (Mar 8, 2006)

gadget_lover said:


> . . . Keep in mind that mace or pepper spray is designed to slow your attacker so you can have a head start running. You have to keep your cool to do that.
> 
> The crowd aspect is very worrysome. The use of pepper spray is not as intimidating (to the other attackers) as a gunshot is. They won't necessarily slow their rush just because they see their buddies stop, rub their eyes and yell. They might still oevertake you.
> 
> ...



Just wanted to add that this post clarifies my previous suggestions. 

I too am a martial artist like taiji, but proficiency in a certain art and "real world" conflict dynamics may not always be the same. I must admit I've never handled those devices yet, but I wholeheatedly concur that these pepper spray "grenades" are only a stop-gap measure to attain some distance and precious moments to run away, as the the sheer number of the attackers can certainly overwhelm. If to engage in contact is not needed or feasible, why do so? Breaking proximity from contact is more paramount. This tactic is why the "torinoko" (chemical/smoke/confusion-and-blinding bombs) was said to be included in the tools of the "ninja" (Ok I can hear the groaning in the background, seriously though). 

Guns, depending on one's proficiency, MAY also escalate the situation to an unfavorable degree or condition. Besides, isn't there be a possiblity that someone among those kids might also be carrying and respond similarly?


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## gadget_lover (Mar 8, 2006)

There are parallels between mace and pepper-spray. Both are used in similar fashion and have similar drawbacks. Both have the potential for being triggered at the wrong time, etc.



mike painter said:


> I know tear gas and mace can be of little effect but other than a few comments here I've never heard that any human can ignore the effects.



Last time I looked, pepper spray worked best if sprayed at the face, not the torso. I agree that "ignoring" a face full of pepper spray may be impossible, but faced with a group you are not likely to hit all of them in the face. If you are facing a group of 6 guys and only hit 2 in the face, the other 4 will not likely be deterred.

Well that's what I think, for what it's worth.

Daniel


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## bearhunter (Mar 10, 2006)

taiji said:


> here in Portland it seems that it is fashionable for roving teens of up to 40 strong to beat up bicyclist and anybody else that they feel they want to beat up for sport.
> I am thinking of getting pepper spray for self protection and need your advise.
> Which one? Any particular brand better than others? Mist or stream?
> I know nothing of them. Thanks in advance and all input considered.


 
Get a .45 that will do it every time
The speed a punk will change his mind is all in proportional to the size of
the bore he is looking down :devil: 
OR Just send them to Texas


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## Lightmeup (Mar 10, 2006)

taiji said:


> I fully intend on being sprayed. Buckets of water and wipes at the ready of course. But I may chicken out at the last minute at any rate I will post.
> 
> EDIT - came to my senses and realized that empty bravado will cause great pain.


I don't know if you plan on being sprayed or not, but if you do, be careful. I have heard that some people are very sensitive to that stuff and if it gets on the mucous membranes of their airways they can swell up and cut off your breathing.


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## taiji (Mar 10, 2006)

Thanks. While I am still on the fence on this one I find Daniel's post above in #31 to be in line with my sentiments. I am not ready for the resposibility of firearm ownership so that is not even a consideration. Pepper spray may not fully stop an attacker but it is better to face an aggressor who is blinded by rage and oc where there is no quessing the energy of his intent and motions as opposed to one that has his wits and faculty about him. In a crowd, only 8 can get their hands on you at one time and out of that 8 two, maybe 3 can have full power in their stroke while the others are bumping into each other jockeying for position. Having 2 or 3 aggressors delibitated by oc may be used as an obstacle or as a moving shield from the others attackers hopefully facilitating an escape.


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## EV_007 (Mar 10, 2006)

[font=&quot]Bear Spray will keep them at bay. Lasts longer for multiple assailants too. Works good on multiple dogs too. Much, much easier to explain than having your attacker bleeding out. Not to mention the lawsuits and “notoriety” from the shooting incident. 

If attacker continues after being doused with Bear Spray size canister of pepper spray and thee is no other retreat method, then you are more justified in using lethal force since you’ve exhausted non lethal deterrents IF you felt your life was in danger. A firearm should be your LAST option if avoidance, retreat and non leathal methods fail to deter a mortally wounding attack.

Oh, BTW keep a healthy savings account to defend your actions in court. [/font]


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## Brighteyez (Mar 10, 2006)

Sounds like you either took a POST class or the Consumer Affairs class for security guards. The civilian classes didn't use the gas exposure, just the application of some liquid spray below the eyes.

Also the civilian permit was specifically for tear gas (since OC wasn't on the market  ). And by the time that OC did hit the market, the civilian permit was no longer necessary (1996 or 97?) 



gadget_lover said:


> When I got my OC permit I had to walk through a room that had tear gas sprayed in it.


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## Lightraven (Mar 10, 2006)

The good thing about sprays is that you can use them at a much lower level of threat than lethal force. Someone throws a haymaker, you can't shoot or stab them, generally, but you can spray them.

Remember, though, that bad guys will carry guns or knives and lethal force is immediately legally justified to defend against these threats. There is no legal requirement to run, call the police, give warnings, or use lesser means of force. This assumes that you didn't start a fight or commit a crime and are somewhere you can legally be. 

Most self defense shootings do not go to court.


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## gadget_lover (Mar 10, 2006)

Brighteyez said:


> Sounds like you either took a POST class or the Consumer Affairs class for security guards. The civilian classes didn't use the gas exposure, just the application of some liquid spray below the eyes.
> 
> Also the civilian permit was specifically for tear gas (since OC wasn't on the market  ). And by the time that OC did hit the market, the civilian permit was no longer necessary (1996 or 97?)




ooops. It was for CS / CN carry in California, and I was a security guard in my off hours at the time. I nolonger remember which was used... A lot's happened in the last 30 years.

Good catch!

Daniel


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## depusm12 (Mar 12, 2006)

gadget_lover said:


> They do make large canisters as "bear spray". These are designed (IIRC) to shoot further. They might be more effective at pushing back a group.
> 
> Daniel


 
Bear spray is 15% pepper spray or more, and usually it is illeagal to use on people because it contains a higher concentration of OC and will cause 3rd degree burns on people. Also you need to get some training or read up on OC bfore you carry it it can be harmfull if sprayed closer than 3 ft it can cause permanete damage if used closer that. I am a police officer and I learned that in OC training.


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## Lightraven (Mar 12, 2006)

OC is harmful if sprayed closer than 3 feet? I emptied a can into a guy's face at 6 inches. But you do what ya gotta do.


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## Mike Painter (Mar 12, 2006)

depusm12 said:


> ... will cause 3rd degree burns on people...


No, it will not.
The gas will be cold but it is unlikely to freeze tissue.
The active ingrediant in pepper spray, capsasian, acts on the nerve endings and does not cause a heat related burn.

It will kill taste buds but is food grade and eatable.

I use a one million Scoville unit oil in cooking...


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## brightnorm (Mar 12, 2006)

As an "older" person with some physical problems I am not capable of running from aggressors and I consider a group attack a serious threat to my life and person. I consider firearms fully justified as a last ditch defense against a potentially lethal attack. 

Fortunately, this particular crime isn't common in my city where the current gun law is "Shall Not Ever Carry", but if I lived in Portland I would seriously consider the option of carrying, along with its responsibilities and potential consequences.

Brightnorm


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## Vee3 (Mar 13, 2006)

Just watch out if you spray them with the Fox Labs stuff and they keep coming - There will be long "snotsicles" hanging out of their nostrils that can get on your clothing...


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## depusm12 (Mar 13, 2006)

Mike Painter said:


> No, it will not.
> The gas will be cold but it is unlikely to freeze tissue.
> The active ingrediant in pepper spray, capsasian, acts on the nerve endings and does not cause a heat related burn.


 
Bear spray is 15% pepper spray or more, and usually it is illeagal to use on people because it contains a higher concentration of OC and will cause 3rd degree burns on people.

If you had read my post I was refering to the Bear Spray not the regular kind police and civillains can use.


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## dca2 (Mar 13, 2006)

I carry Freeze +P (1% OC, 1% CS, UV Dye) This is what my local PD carries. After reading this thread, I may switch to Fox--their products' website has good product info and comparisons. (Google "Fox Labs") 

Dave A.


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## NeonLights (Mar 13, 2006)

depusm12 said:


> Bear spray is 15% pepper spray or more, and usually it is illeagal to use on people because it contains a higher concentration of OC and will cause 3rd degree burns on people.


 Do you have any corroboration for this? This is the first time I've ever ever heard anyone claim that bear spary can cause 3rd degree burns on a human. That would be some severe chemical burns with serious charring and dead flesh (3rd degree burns). A chemical that can cause 3rd degree burns on human skin would instantly fry human or animal eyes (not to mention what it would do if/when inhaled), and I can't see a product being marketed for use on animals that would be that lethal, causing instant blindness or even death to a human/animal if it got in their eyes or lungs.

-Keith


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## gadget_lover (Mar 13, 2006)

I'm not sure about the nomenclature for chemical burns, but it looks like 3rd degree burns (cuased by heat) by definition require charring of the skin. I imagine the chemical burns from 15% OC would be pretty bad.

YUCK!

Daniel


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## HighLight (Mar 13, 2006)

gadget_lover said:


> I'm not sure about the nomenclature for chemical burns, but it looks like 3rd degree burns (cuased by heat) by definition require charring of the skin. I imagine the chemical burns from 15% OC would be pretty bad.
> 
> YUCK!
> 
> Daniel


 I never heard of OC causing 3rd degree chemical burns. But I did read that OC in concentrations greater than 10% can cause physical damage to human eyes. I don't know if this is minor or major damage.


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## Brighteyez (Mar 13, 2006)

I'm with Neonlights and would also like to know the source of your claims/conclusions as well.



depusm12 said:


> Bear spray is 15% pepper spray or more, and usually it is illeagal to use on people because it contains a higher concentration of OC and will cause 3rd degree burns on people.
> 
> If you had read my post I was refering to the Bear Spray not the regular kind police and civillains can use.


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## Brighteyez (Mar 13, 2006)

I don't think age is much of a factor if a victim is attacked by a mob of 40 people, other than maybe a more mature person may exercise more awareness to try and avoid potential involvement in such an event. Additionally, an armed victim may actually be at greater risk since the firearm will most likely be taken away from and possibly used on the victim.



brightnorm said:


> As an "older" person with some physical problems I am not capable of running from aggressors and I consider a group attack a serious threat to my life and person. I consider firearms fully justified as a last ditch defense against a potentially lethal attack.
> 
> Fortunately, this particular crime isn't common in my city where the current gun law is "Shall Not Ever Carry", but if I lived in Portland I would seriously consider the option of carrying, along with its responsibilities and potential consequences.
> 
> Brightnorm


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## brightnorm (Mar 13, 2006)

You raise important points. I think that when shots are fired even bad guys duck and run, especially when they are surprised by a soft target that has suddenly turned deadly. Does this hold true for armed bad guys? Perhaps some of our LEO's can weigh in on this question; I would very much appreciate their input. 

Brightnorm

PS Brighteyes, if you are a LEO I'll have to take your opinion on this very seriously.


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## Lightraven (Mar 13, 2006)

In my opinion, being armed with the best weapons and equipment available is the biggest advantage possible when confronting someone or a group.

The willingness to use the weapons is important, but I think most people can rise to the occasion.


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## raggie33 (Mar 13, 2006)

when i make hot sauce i dry habernos and sometimes i just dry the membrane.its pure dry pepper then i use a food proceser and its turns into fine powder .i imagine that would be hot if ya got it in eyes


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## depusm12 (Mar 13, 2006)

Brighteyez said:


> I'm with Neonlights and would also like to know the source of your claims/conclusions as well.


 
I was mistaken about the 3rd degree burns, but it will cause chemical burns with the higher concentraition of pepper spray used in bear spray. As far as 15% (bear spray) being illegal to use on humans that is a state law.I'm sure most states have a similar law otherwise law enforcement would be using it against perps.


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## Brighteyez (Mar 13, 2006)

Unless the victim is restrained (for torture purposes), I think they're likely to irrigate any irritation to the skin from OC spray long before any corrosive damage is done to the skin.

I'm not familiar with Kansas law, and wouldn't know if what you say is accurate. Most law enforcement agencies do have guidelines that prescribe a specific set of items that are acceptable for use as safety equipment. Additionally those 12oz cans are expensive, and are kind of hard to carry on a utility belt. There are plenty of web resources that sell 15% spray in self defense size canisters, though as you might guess, none are from companies known to law enforcement purchasing departments. Personally I'd have to wonder if anyone ever tests that stuff that's sold in hardware/hovelty stores to see if it is anywhere near what is claimed on the package.

I don't know of any law in California that prohibits the use of "bear spray" on humans, but cannisters sold as bear spray tends to use a different carrier agent and tends to be dispensed in a syrupy stream that may not be as efficient as the streams used for OC sprays currently marketed for defensive or law enforcement usage. For civilian defensive use, a spray (just don't get downwind of it) or foam is often easier to use than a stream in an emotionally charged situation.



depusm12 said:


> I was mistaken about the 3rd degree burns, but it will cause chemical burns with the higher concentraition of pepper spray used in bear spray. As far as 15% (bear spray) being illegal to use on humans that is a state law.I'm sure most states have a similar law otherwise law enforcement would be using it against perps.


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## staghater (Aug 27, 2006)

i cant post pic


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## PhotonWrangler (Aug 27, 2006)

I purchased some Mace brand 10% OC *Gel* yesterday. I'm thinking this will reduce the possibility of accidental blowback, and will probably be more controllable if used indoors against an intruder.


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## TigerhawkT3 (Aug 27, 2006)

Have you considered a stun gun? www.eliteled.com even has an 800kV model integrated into a Luxeon flashlight! Of course, these aren't much good against 30 attackers, although it's possible that when they see and hear the flash and crackle, not many of them will be enthusiastic enough to be the first in.

Perhaps some sort of blade?

Flashbang?

M67? (KIDDING!)

The only weapon that can't be taken away and used against the victim is the fists/feet. Take some lessons in street fighting (as in, seriously intended for self-defense) if you're worried about getting sprayed/knifed/shot/etc. with your own gear. With increased danger of roaming hoodlums in your area, that type of class probably won't be hard to find.

Whatever you do, BE CAREFUL!


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## PhotonWrangler (Aug 27, 2006)

My OC purchase was for an elderly relative who would not do as well with other devices or methods. I've considered tasers and other options but the spray seems to be the best fit in this case.


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## pete7226 (Aug 27, 2006)

Fox labs is the best/strongest. But its not magic. It buys you time to turn the assault on the offender or make a quick retreat. REmember this. I've sprayed dozens and dozens of people in my career and if someone is very determined he can/will inflict injury on you with/without being sprayed. I prefer a baton instead. Also stay away of 10%, 5%. these are meaningless. All that means is what percentage of the irritant is in the spray. The only number to look at is the SHU rating. Chicago Police issues 500,000 shus units. I went to 2 million and then to the 5.3 million which actually works. I've been sprayed by all three and can say the 5.3 is the best by far. 2 million or less is for dogs in my opinion. The most important thing you can do is think out scenarios before they happen and formulate a plan. THis is what I do when I lie awake in bed. It will possibly save your life instead of being taken off guard when it happens and losing valuable seconds deciding what to do. If you can legally carry a gun or taser go that route. Guns dont always stop people either.


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## PhotonWrangler (Aug 27, 2006)

Thanks for the advice, Pete. What does SHU stand for?


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## bwaites (Aug 28, 2006)

SHU=Scoville Heat Units


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## brightnorm (Aug 28, 2006)

pete7226 said:


> Fox labs is the best/strongest. But its not magic...I went to 2 million and then to the 5.3 million which actually works......If you can legally carry a gun or taser go that route. Guns dont always stop people either.


Pete,

Thanks for the valuable advice. Because of my age and physical condition and living in an anti-gun city I believe Fox 5.3 SHU is my best bet, and I carry it when I'm out late at night. Have you found it to be effective on a high percentage of suspects, and do you recommend the stream or cone for general outdoor civilian use?

Thanks,
Brightnorm


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## leduk (Aug 28, 2006)

I used to commute 5 miles on a bicycle. Sometimes I used to come back late, after a drink, through crowds of revelers. Best way to avoid trouble is ..... avoid trouble. Change your route from the places where the crowds will be. On a bike a half mile detour/extra will not take all that long (2 or 3 mins!).

My biggest trouble was car/van and taxi cutting me up. I'd slap their bonnet, shout etc etc.... I have been chased through the city a few times. Hoik the bike onto the pavement, do a 180, and peddle like f**k. 

Against 40 you have no chance. Avoid.

What about permanent die spray ?? You'd at least get i.d. for the police as you watch your teeth depart your mouth.

Cheers


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## TedTheLed (Aug 28, 2006)

I got my Firefly (tiny 3 123-cells instead of a 9-volt battery) 900,000 volt stun gun and Fox 5.3 shu spray at http://www.defensedevices.com/ -- I suggest getting the "spatter stream" rather than spray or fog -- there is a 2 battery model that has more of a cylindrical pocketable shape, but 'only' 800,000 volts..


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## ohiocopper (Aug 29, 2006)

FOX! 
I have used it and had it used on me:mecry: 

As for how well it really can work, that can be a different story.
It may not have an effect at all, some people will just laugh.
Some people it can kill them, due to medical issues etc.

The spray and the foam, the foam is nice but can be wiped off and thrown back at you.
The spray is nice but might float back at you.


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## DarkLight (Aug 29, 2006)

Better to be judged by 12, then carried by six.

Shoot em.


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## Lips (Aug 29, 2006)

.

I took a pepper spray class a month ago. It works and it burns like hell!


Out of 15 people around 12 had immediate reduced threat capability. 3 or so were only mildly affected for a minute or so. 


After 5 minutes we were all in pain with sinuses flowing in a rapid fluidius manor :naughty: 


Too much water only extends the punishment!

I have a new found respect for this stuff. As those have said before not an immediate deterrent for someone hyped up though 

.


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## TedTheLed (Aug 29, 2006)

ohiocopper,
the problem of the fog or spray blowing back at you is why I recommended the 'spatterstream' option for Fox 5.3 earlier -- since then I went back to the website and see they no longer have the 'spatterstream' option available in the pull down menus..

I'll drop them a line and ask what's up --


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## TedTheLed (Aug 29, 2006)

following, the professional and helpful reply from Defensedevices, in it's entirety  :

A stream is a stream.
The stream pattern is available on all the models.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Ted" <tedlaarthlink.net>
To: <admi efensedevices.com>
Sent: Tuesday, August 29, 2006 10:06 AM
Subject: Fox "Spatterstream" availability

> Hello --
> What happened the the "spatter stream" option for the Fox 5.3 ?
> Which model of Fox is least subject to wind ? 
> Thanks very much,
> Ted 
>----


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## ohiocopper (Aug 30, 2006)

Wow....they were quite the help eh?
I have heard of it before, will try looking it up some more.


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## stackmjwiz (Sep 1, 2006)

> but DEFINATELY get the $5 handbook that places selll with pepper spray purchases. You'll learn a lot.



How in-depth are the tips regarding how to carry & use. The handbook is only 32 pgs. Can this info not be found on the net?

Doug Lamb (the author of the handbook) also has a 120 pg book titled "Pepper Sprays: Practical Self-Defense For Anyone, Anywhere"; has anyone read that?


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## pete7226 (Sep 1, 2006)

Brightnorm, sorry for the long absence. Its worked very well on those that I've sprayed. But always remember that some things dont work on everyone as well and that determination will carry someone a long way, at least for a few seconds, which may/may not be enough to hurt you


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## brightnorm (Sep 4, 2006)

Thanks Pete

BN


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## bestcounsel (Sep 4, 2006)

I carry foxlabs on some of my details. I carry the 2oz model on a bladetech holster. 

I like pepper spray for it helps keeps distance between one and any perps. 

Knives, batons and such are cqb and require different mindset training.


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## Lightraven (Sep 4, 2006)

Yes and no. Once the pepper spray has been used, it is often time to go hands on, if it isn't already at that point. Or get out of dodge for a civvie just defending herself.

The last time I contemplated spraying a guy, the plan was to spray, then put him on the ground, forcefully. I don't really trust the spray itself to take care of business. It just hasn't done enough the times I've used it for me to stand back and watch.

Knives, of course are deadly force and must be held for those situations that would justify deadly force.


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