# Do USA banknotes go out of date ?



## broadgage (Apr 12, 2010)

I am thinking of aquiring a small stash of dollars, probably in US$20 bills, as these are readily obtainable from UK banks.

Do these notes remain valid for ever ? or they periodicly superseded by new designs ?

Here in the UK our Bank of England notes are from time to time replaced with new designs, and after a year or so the old ones are no longer accepted in shops etc. (they can still be exchanged at the Bank of England for new notes)

I feel it sensible to have a supply of USA $ just in case the UK £ goes the way of the Icelandic currency.
Not much point though if the notes are liable to become obsolete.


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## Alex K. (Apr 12, 2010)

Not that I'm aware of. We did, however, get a new design on some denominations, like the $5, $20, and I believe $50, but it is just more colorful, and both old and new are still accepted and given at banks and stores.


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## DonShock (Apr 12, 2010)

US currency is not superceded when they do new designs. Both the old and new bills remain in circulation at the same time. The old ones get removed in the normal processing by financial institutions as they wear out over time.

As far as I know, even very old notes could theoretically be used as cash although they would probably be worth more as collectables. Of course, your local store probably isn't going to recognize them. That happens sometimes today with the $2 bill that was issued back in the 70's. They are so rarely circulated that some younger clerks think they are fakes. There is even a special office that will take your burnt, moldy, or otherwise mutilated currency and reconstruct the bills enough to determine the value and issue you that amount in new cash.


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## Databyter (Apr 12, 2010)

broadgage said:


> I am thinking of aquiring a small stash of dollars, probably in US$20 bills, as these are readily obtainable from UK banks.
> 
> Do these notes remain valid for ever ? or they periodicly superseded by new designs ?
> 
> ...


You're better off buying an easily sold commodity such as gold or silver.

The dollar is slated to take a big plunge this summer, and may not recover.


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## Diesel_Bomber (Apr 12, 2010)

I don't know about this summer, but I agree with Databyter. I would not consider our USA $$$ to be reliable.


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## Chauncey Gardner (Apr 12, 2010)

Echo the advice to stay out of the dollar, particulary holding it & eating the inflation & opportunity cost.


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## Ken_McE (Apr 12, 2010)

broadgage said:


> Do these notes remain valid for ever ? or they periodicly superseded by new designs ?



The paper currency evolves slowly over time. Attempts to make it harder to counterfeit seem to be what drives this. Recently they have moved the pictures over to one side and added a little color. The old notes still work fine. I suppose they could change this, but I don't believe they have invaladated currency since the end of the American Civil War, when Confederate currency went out of circulation.



> I feel it sensible to have a supply of USA $ just in case the UK £ goes the way of the Icelandic currency.


There are odd things going on with the US economy and therefore its currency. My personal opinion, not based on any studies, is that inflation is likely in the near future. If this should happen your dollars would lose some value in storage.

To have some dollars around is reasonable. They are accepted essentially everywhere. You might try a mixed basket with different currencies. Your assumption here would be that not all of them would go down at once. Perhaps leftover Francs or Deutsche Marks would be usefull? If the króna has bottomed out, and if you can use them in Britain, now would be the time to get some. The problem here of course is to get something that you can readily use.

There is something to be said for the jewels and precious metals idea. It is unlikely that the value of these things will go down. The metals have value in their own right because of what they are. Jewelry is popular just because we like it, we have always liked it, and I expect we will always like it. The trick here is to not pay too much of a surcharge when you first get the items.


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## Apollo Cree (Apr 12, 2010)

In theory, US banknotes remain "valid" forever. 

At one time, it was illegal to own US gold certificates, but it's now legal. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gold_certificate

Gold and silver certificates are no longer redeemable for gold or silver, but can be converted into equivalent "paper" notes. (They usually have a higher value as a collectible note.)

The US government doesn't like physical currency and would like to require everything to be done with checks and electronic transactions so they can be sure they can collect taxes and otherwise control the people's money. 

The US government has stopped printing all denominations of more than $100, but will still exchange them for current denominations, and destroys them if they pass through a US bank. 

I would not be surprised if the US government doesn't decide at some time to "repudiate" some old notes, but allow you to convert them to the current notes. They would claim it's to fight terrorism, drug smuggling, and counterfeiting. I'd expect them to require you to fill out some paperwork to exchange large amounts of old currency for new. 

One could speculate that the real reason is not to fight terrorism and drugs, but to collect taxes, and to keep control of the money supply to help keep the peasants in line. 

There's been a lot of talk about the US government wanting to get rid of the $100 bill to cut down on the "underground economy," but this has been resisted by a lot of people. 

It's been said that US $100 bills are the backbone of the underground economy world wide. In once sense, the US government would like to get rid of all the $100 (and maybe $50) bills to make sure they have better control of the money worldwide. One problem with this is that there are a lot of $100 bills circulating in foreign countries for their underground/cash economies. If people overseas switched from, for instance, US$ to Euros, this could have a bad economic effect. The US government would have to buy a lot of Euros to replace the US bills being used in the worldwide underground economy. 

The EU produces a 500 Euro note. There has been some debate that this is so large in order to allow the EU to transition the underground economy to Euros and get some of the "free loan" benefit of having your currency being used out of the country. 

I believe EU notes DO expire and become worthless some time after they are replaced by a new issue unless you exchange them before the expiration date.


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## HarryN (Apr 13, 2010)

I can understand your concern about the local currency, as we all have concerns about our government debts, high unemployment, merchandise trade deficit, etc.

From a historical perspective, we probably should consider what happened in the mid 1980s - stagflation. No real growth, but lots of inflation. This would be consistent with previously economic cycles like we have gone through over the past 50 years.

The currency systems are pretty gamed, but possibly the Euro would be a better hedge and more locally useful.

Its useful to consider what the Chinese are buying up when looking for inflation hedges:
- copper, copper ore, copper scrap, copper mines
- iron, iron ore, iron scrap, iron mines
- Aluminum, etc.
- Lithium reserves
- Rare earth metals and related
- Companies, esp. in the US and Germany. Most of this is done using a third party hedge fun, but basically, its all under China investment control
- Real estate in some markets

What are they buying it with:
- US dollars (especially)
- Euros (some)
- UK Pound (yes)

Obviously they have an advantage in that they buy both to dump the currencies, and they need the mineral anyway, but their thinking is clear. Trade in currency for minerals, esp. ore types.

Information correction to original comment below:
___________________
You might notice that gold is not that high on their list. They use it, but not in qty like the others. The other reason might be that gold prices are historically high, while other commodities are reasonably low.
_____________________________________________

Edit: - It was correctly pointed out that the Chinese are also stocking up other minerals, including gold. Some purchases have been more obvious than others.


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## ElectronGuru (Apr 13, 2010)

JCD said:


> If an investor has a reasonable expectation of positive inflation, then better than investing in US currency would be to invest in US Treasury Inflation Protected Securities (TIPS).



+1

If a house burns to the ground and it turns out a guy in 1925 used US bills (bank notes) for insulation, provided 51% of any bill can pass examination, each can be exchanged for real currency.

However, each dollar will have lost so much value, it might as well have burned away.




Fulgeo said:


> Gold is a store of value outside the inflationary deflationary loop of political fiat currency. The OP was looking for some insight on diversification into another fiat currency. I feel that this is not the way to protect yourself from a loss of value.



+1

Gold is not an investment, it is a security blanket. The 'value' of gold is not realized unless and until a society deteriorates far enough that it can be used for barter to buy diminishing supplies. At that point, it 'returns' to being the defacto currency. And at that point, you would no longer have to worry about things like how to get to work and what to do with your investments.

Assuming society holds together, a second factor to inflation is opportunity cost. This is what the money could have been doing (earning) while it was tied up in non earning assets.

All of this discussion comes down to a single thing, confidence. Historically, the best time to time to invest is when things are undervalued. And things tend to be the most undervalued when confidence is low.


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## BigMHoff (Apr 13, 2010)

Buy ammo.


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## Squidboy (Apr 13, 2010)

As someone else living in the UK I see absolutely no point in holding any foreign currency.

If the UK economy or banks get to the point where you need US dollars, then you are going to have a lot more to worry about than how many greenbacks you have.

If your looking for a guaranteed way to have something of worth, do what the SAS and RAF do when they get dropped in the arse end of nowhere. During the first gulf war they carried twenty gold sovereigns each as part of their survival kit. It would buy them travel out of the country or let them barter for vehicles with the locals.

Trouble is gold prices are already high. I really dont think you need dollars or gold to be honest.


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## Badbeams3 (Apr 13, 2010)

I believe China is the #1 producer of gold...surpassed south Africa in 2007. But me thinks the Chinese Gov would just assume let the majority rest underground in their mines...why flood the world with gold? Just drive the value down. Better a controlled release. Same as oil. 

Don`t know what a good safe investment would be. Maybe iron. Maybe cement? A lot of old bridges. Maybe a coffin company...a lot of my friends are getting old...propane :devil:


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## GLOCK18 (Apr 13, 2010)

I would recommend bearer bonds in 10k increments.


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## Ken_McE (Apr 13, 2010)

JCD said:


> "[Gold] gets dug out of the ground in Africa, or someplace. Then we melt it down, dig another hole, bury it again and pay people to stand around guarding it. It has no utility.



Mr. Buffet is off about that. gold is a high quality electrical conductor. The only reason we use copper is because we don't have enough gold to wire everything.

Jewelry is an old and well established use for gold. It works easily, holds fine details, looks good against human skin, is hypoallergenic, and does not corrode. There are no superior substitutes.

The price of gold may be moved up by manipulators, but it is hard to see it losing all value so long as people decorate themselves or use electricity.

PS, guys, what's this "fiat money" business?




> *BigMHoff:*
> Buy ammo.


He can't, he's a Brit. They need to file an application if they want to buy so much as a firecracker.





> *Flashaholic*:
> The dollar is slated to take a big plunge this summer, and may not recover.


How do you know?


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## LuxLuthor (Apr 13, 2010)

While $500 & $1,000 bills are relatively common. Count your blessings if you still have a $5,000 or $10,000 bill. Details and photos here.


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## Illum (Apr 13, 2010)

If they do go out of date, such as a complete redesign, etc which does happen every couple hundred years Banks will still exchange them without additional cost.

Looking at old bills with hysterical numbers always reminds me of the Deutsche Marks printed in the 1920s...10 million, 20 million


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## broadgage (Apr 14, 2010)

Diesel_Bomber said:


> I don't know about this summer, but I agree with Databyter. I would not consider our USA $$$ to be reliable.


 
Neither would I ! But I still feel that a SMALL stash of $ is prudent to avoid putting "all my eggs in one basket"
Gold is arguably a better bet, but is not readily spent on small purchases.

I have a small supply of gold and also some Euros, but was thinking of some $ for spreading the risk, I would consider this to be more of a disaster prep than an investment.


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## Archie Cruz (Apr 14, 2010)

Both UK Pounds AND USD are 'toast'.
Collect Chinese Yuan, Euro, FR Swiss instead.
USD are mostly useful to those of us that use it as legal tender and that's all.:welcome:



broadgage said:


> I am thinking of aquiring a small stash of dollars, probably in US$20 bills, as these are readily obtainable from UK banks.
> 
> Do these notes remain valid for ever ? or they periodicly superseded by new designs ?
> 
> ...


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## Ken_McE (Apr 14, 2010)

> *Broadgage*:
> But I still feel that a SMALL stash of $ is prudent to avoid putting "all my eggs in one basket"
> Gold is arguably a better bet, but is not readily spent on small purchases.


Nicely put.



Archie Cruz said:


> Both UK Pounds AND USD are 'toast'.



For those of us who don't follow these things, how can you tell?




> Collect Chinese Yuan, Euro, FR Swiss instead.



Yuan or Yen would be good in that they come from a whole 'nother region/economy, but I'm thinking they would be a little hard to spend on the street. I think the O.P. wants something simple and low-fuss.


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## KC2IXE (Apr 15, 2010)

As of right now, ALL US currency ever printed (and I believe minted) remains legal tender. That said, all bills greater than $100 will be removed from circulation upon reaching a bank

The largest bills ever printed were the $100,000 bill - they were never released to the general public, but were used to transfer funds from one federal reserve branch to another

When I was a kid, I had an "Uncle" up the block (LONG decesed) who was the driver for the head of the Fed - he had the corner (just the numbers) of one of the 100K bills stashed in his wallet. BTW He appeared on the cover of Life magazine holding a bar of gold in the NY Fed's vault, which actually holds MORE gold than Ft Knox - fun to watch gold deliverys to/from the banks in that ares - the fed has enclosed parking, but Chase up the bank, and the big Japanese bank a block up from there often do the gold transfers right at the curb - truck pulls up, out comes a forklift to move the pallets with the bars on them - you can watch from behind the lines the setup. They are not too worried about you stealing one - 1)LOTS of guards, 2)They are HEAVY


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## blub (Apr 15, 2010)

LuxLuthor said:


> While $500 & $1,000 bills are relatively common. Count your blessings if you still have a $5,000 or $10,000 bill. Details and photos here.


 


Not a really funny story but, my brother used to work at a bank in the 70's and 80's and had started collecting $500 and $1,000 bills whenever people brought them in and had quite a few. He lost his job and had been behind on house and car payments and everything else he shared with his girlfriend. Without asking him, she paid a whole bunch of things off and started making payments with the large bills and pretty much depleted his collection. He was happy and grateful that she had been making payments until he found out how she had been paying. Check ebay prices on $500 and $1,000 bills and you'll see why:mecry: Nope, they aren't together any more.


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## gollum (Apr 16, 2010)

Well I can't believe it ...
no one has yet mentioned High end custom lights 

as far as I can tell this is CPF
and here we all love our lights

have you seen what happens to the best lights here

I would recommend a new Spy007 Tri-V
or a Raw Da
or any McGizmo
or any Ti custom

not only do you get a really great thing to own and use (carefully)
but they do sell for the same purchase price and sometimes much more.

I was after a raw Da for ages...
eventually got one for US$545
Lummi's price new was 150 Quid
another cpf'er paid $1050 for his one

anything rare and Titanium usually gets your $ back.

and remember the cpf rule No.1 if you're not sure buy 2 of them


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## guardpost3 (Apr 16, 2010)

DonShock said:


> That happens sometimes today with the $2 bill that was issued back in the 70's. They are so rarely circulated that some younger clerks think they are fakes.



the 70's? ive got a handful of them that are much more recent. the one im holding now was printed in 2003. they must not print that many of them because i dont see them very often, maybe two or three times a year.


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## fyrstormer (Apr 16, 2010)

The short answer is no, US currency doesn't "expire". I have a stash of 1800's Morgan silver dollars that I could buy groceries with, if I wanted to. US currency only gets replaced when it wears out and is no longer recognizable -- but by that point it's usually rare enough that it's worth more to keep it and collect it than to exchange it for new currency.


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## Lynx_Arc (Apr 16, 2010)

Ken_McE said:


> Mr. Buffet is off about that. gold is a high quality electrical conductor. The only reason we use copper is because we don't have enough gold to wire everything.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resistivity
actually copper is a better conductor than gold with silver even better than copper. gold has 42% higher resistance than copper does with copper having about 6% higher resistance than silver. Silver used to be used in some instances but it costs more and oxidizes easily compared to copper. aluminum is even worse than gold, but the weight and cost of it makes power companies use it in power lines at times. The ideal conductor would probably be gold plated silver wire. the gold doesn't tarnish and the silver has the best conductivity. This is why you see copper cables with gold plated ends although for most instances the gold plated connectors hyped on cables is bogus as long as the connector is free of oxidation metal works well enough and plating metal with gold doesn't make the metal under the plating any better of a conductor.


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## Lynx_Arc (Apr 16, 2010)

Just as long as it isn't confederate money you are good to go.


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## LuxLuthor (Apr 16, 2010)

blub said:


> Not a really funny story but, my brother used to work at a bank in the 70's and 80's and had started collecting $500 and $1,000 bills whenever people brought them in and had quite a few. He lost his job and had been behind on house and car payments and everything else he shared with his girlfriend. Without asking him, she paid a whole bunch of things off and started making payments with the large bills and pretty much depleted his collection. He was happy and grateful that she had been making payments until he found out how she had been paying. Check ebay prices on $500 and $1,000 bills and you'll see why:mecry: Nope, they aren't together any more.



Funny story.

The last "stash" of $10,000 bills was held by Bank One until released in 2001, and before that by Binion's Horseshoe Casino on the strip, one of my favorite old school single deck blackjack casinos left, and that let you hold your cards. They had a hundred of the mint condition $10,000 bills in the shape of a horseshoe as a tourist attraction that were sold off in 1999. Today, there are only a few hundred known to exist.


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## Hitthespot (Apr 16, 2010)

LuxLuthor said:


> While $500 & $1,000 bills are relatively common. Count your blessings if you still have a $5,000 or $10,000 bill. Details and photos here.


 
Lux, Thanks for the Link. I always enjoy learning something I didn't know, and I didn't know about the 500, 10,000, and the 100,000 dollar bills.

Thanks

Bill


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## LightWalker (Apr 16, 2010)

You can always use the dollars to start a fire.


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## adnj (Apr 16, 2010)

US notes do not expire. Gold cannot be easily transported and I would avoid it unless you have storage.


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## TedTheLed (Apr 16, 2010)

out of the kindness of my generous heart I will gladly give you TEN TIMES (.45 cents, according to the chart above)) the going rate for each and every dollar bill you send me. please send at least a hundred dollars at a time to cut down on postage costs. thank you. TTL.


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## LuxLuthor (Apr 16, 2010)

LightWalker said:


> You can always use the dollars to start a fire.



You have to overlay that with rising income charts. I suspect there is little question that most people today live like Kings compared to the standards in 1920. Most families in the USA have 2 cars, 3 TV's, plenty of food, lots of time and money for recreation. If the dollar's value held close to its 1920 level, people's income and standard of living would be much lower.

The real meaningful analysis is how much of average worker's labor time was required at different points in history to buy a loaf of bread, a quart of milk, a dozen eggs.


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## Tuikku (Apr 18, 2010)

Apollo Cree said:


> I believe EU notes DO expire and become worthless some time after they are replaced by a new issue unless you exchange them before the expiration date.



Some info on this would be very welcome


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## Ken_McE (Apr 21, 2010)

The Wall Street Journal has a article relevant to the original question.
_
"As a rule of thumb, the Treasury redesigns currency every seven to 10 years because advancements in technology have made counterfeiting outside the norm of professional criminals possible."

"The old bills will continue to be accepted until they wear out._"


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## LEDninja (Apr 22, 2010)

The U.S. Government has unveiled the new design for the $100 note
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB100...90310606472.html?mod=rss_Today's_Most_Popular


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## Empath (Apr 22, 2010)

While the question of whether "USA banknotes go out of date" is an important consideration in using them as part of your portfolio, another very important question should be concerning "can" the notes be invalidated and replaced.

There's no scheduled length of time designated for the notes, but the right to recall, exchange and invalidate a previous design could be exercised. If it was determined that the security and financial stability was compromised in leaving the previous notes valid, total replacement could happen.


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## Archie Cruz (Apr 22, 2010)

Thanks LightWalker. That's what I mean by 'toast'.
It will not likely happen in our lifetime, but some empires decline so badly, that indeed, their currency becomes toilet paper. Look at Iraq's after the invasion etc.
The key is that of purchasing power against inflation /CPI and wages.
In a SHTF scenario, raw materials, commodities, even bartered goods and services can have more value that the local currency.
In truth, influence and military might are the most powerful currency. That after all, is what keeps the dollar afloat when China owns the US. It's what kept the Vikings, Mongols and Ottomans well fed too If you want to guard against devaluation look at : Food, sanitary papers, medicine and the new gold.... WATER!



LightWalker said:


> You can always use the dollars to start a fire.


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## LightWalker (Apr 22, 2010)

Archie Cruz said:


> Thanks LightWalker. That's what I mean by 'toast'.
> It will not likely happen in our lifetime, but some empires decline so badly, that indeed, their currency becomes toilet paper. Look at Iraq's after the invasion etc.
> The key is that of purchasing power against inflation /CPI and wages.
> In a SHTF scenario, raw materials, commodities, even bartered goods and services can have more value that the local currency.
> In truth, influence and military might are the most powerful currency. That after all, is what keeps the dollar afloat when China owns the US. It's what kept the Vikings, Mongols and Ottomans well fed too If you want to guard against devaluation look at : Food, sanitary papers, medicine and the new gold.... WATER!


 
Life is very difficult without water.


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## Archie Cruz (Apr 23, 2010)

Sorry you're missing some facts...
such as the fact that all those goodies you enumerated have been financed with debt to foreigners whereas in former times 9other than the depression obviously) they were financed with cash in hand or a surplus. Also, those goodies were manufactured in foreign countries, whereas in past times, they were mostly Made In USA. I repeat. We are a debtor nation.




LuxLuthor said:


> You have to overlay that with rising income charts. I suspect there is little question that most people today live like Kings compared to the standards in 1920. Most families in the USA have 2 cars, 3 TV's, plenty of food, lots of time and money for recreation. If the dollar's value held close to its 1920 level, people's income and standard of living would be much lower.
> 
> The real meaningful analysis is how much of average worker's labor time was required at different points in history to buy a loaf of bread, a quart of milk, a dozen eggs.


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## LukeA (Apr 23, 2010)

You're speaking for yourself on that one.


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