# Are Sanyo Eneloops better than GP Recyco as they are twice the price ?



## march.brown (Jan 13, 2010)

.
Having previously asked a similar question, I'm still trying to decide which low self-discharge NiMh AAA batteries to buy ... I like the idea that you can leave them for a year or so and still have 80% or more capacity left ... I would prefer not to buy Lithium primary cells as they are more expensive than the NiMh ones, though I realise that they have a very long shelf life of several years ... My idea is to recharge the (possibly only slightly used) NiMh cells once a year, perhaps just before Winter.

I have some Eneloops and some Hybrios and have heard that the GP Recycos had good reviews from "Which" magazine.

It seems that the newer Hybrios are not as good as the old ones, so I am looking for a good alternative ... Eneloops are twice the price of the GP Recycos but are they that much better ? ... Do Eneloops hold their charge better than the GPs ? ... Are there any others to consider that are available easily in the UK ? ... The GP Recycos are under £8 for 8 cells whereas the Eneloops are £15 ... As a matter of interest, which are the best low self-discharge AAAs irrespective of price ? 

Many Thanks for your help.
.


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## amigafan2003 (Jan 13, 2010)

> Eneloops are twice the price of the GP Recycos but are they that much better ?



yes.



> ... Do Eneloops hold their charge better than the GPs ? ...



Yes



> Are there any others to consider that are available easily in the UK ?



Not really - Rayovac Hybrid 4.0's are probably the next best non-eneloop based cell but they are hard to come by in the UK. Sony Cycle Energy cells are a good alternative but seem more expensive in the UK than Enelopps - £10 for 4 where as Eneloops are normally £8 for 4.

Eneloops are better than any other LSD battery out there.

Are they worth twice the price? They are to me. Whether they are to you is only a question you can answer.

Like computers and cars, paying twice as much might only net you 10% performance improvement - but to some people that 10% is important.


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## Niconical (Jan 13, 2010)

The Eneloops are better than the Reckyo (I have many of both), just like the Eneloops are better than any of the other LSD batteries. 
That isn't likely to change any time soon either. 

However, the Recyko, like some others, are a close second and will be very good choice for you. It's all about availability. In the UK GP is an easily available brand, prices are lower. For me ordering from USA, UK or anywhere else it doesn't make much difference, but if I had to move to the UK and was forced to leave behind all my batteries, after I had stopped crying I would have no problem stocking up with all Recyko. I'd get a few Eneloops too of course, variety is good, but the Recyko are perfectly fine for all of my (and yours most likely) uses, flashlights, remotes, toys, whatever.


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## march.brown (Jan 13, 2010)

Decision made.

Just bought eight AAA GP Recycos for £7-78 from UK seller.

Many Thanks for your help.


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## herulach (Jan 13, 2010)

Doh,
Go to your local sainsbury's. Sony Cycle Energy 4XAAA £3.09, 4xAA £3.06. I've got about 30 unopened packs upstairs (don't tell the mrs)


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## LeifUK (Jan 13, 2010)

As I think I've told you before, Eneloop are not twice the price. About £6.60 for 4 AA from 7 Day Shop. Same price as Panasonic Infinium. And that includes shipping. Mine arrived yesterday. I couldn't find any GP Recyklo AA at the price you say on ebay. 

People on this forum continually state that Eneloop are the best. Has anyone actually done side by side testing against other good makes, not just the crap ones?


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## snakebite (Jan 13, 2010)

if you watch for deals the retail price is irrelevant.
most of my eneloops are duraloops and cycleenergy rebrands.
and all bought on sale.some at $5 for 4.


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## wari (Jan 13, 2010)

Last I heard Sony Cycle Energy blue cells where the best around,
they use Sanyo eneloop technology (says so on the cell itself) but Sony is manufactured in one of the newer eneloop factories

does that make any sense?


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## Egsise (Jan 13, 2010)

Good:
AA, Sanyo Eneloop.
AAA, Sony Cycle Energy Blue made in China, which might be ROV Hybrids, Sony does not have their own factory.

Bad:
AA: GP ReCyko+.
AAA: Sanyo Eneloop.

Those are my opinions based on how they perform in different temperatures.(check my sig)


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## amigafan2003 (Jan 13, 2010)

> Has anyone actually done side by side testing against other good makes, not just the crap ones?



Yes.

http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/search.php


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## LeifUK (Jan 13, 2010)

amigafan2003 said:


> Yes.
> 
> http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/search.php



For goodness sake, yes I have searched this site, and found no comprehensive tests. Have you?


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## LeifUK (Jan 13, 2010)

Egsise said:


> Good:
> AA, Sanyo Eneloop.
> AAA, Sony Cycle Energy Blue made in China, which might be ROV Hybrids, Sony does not have their own factory.
> 
> ...



Which are the brands you have tested?


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## amigafan2003 (Jan 13, 2010)

> For goodness sake, yes I have searched this site, and found no comprehensive tests. Have you?


Yes.

There is one in the sig of the poster above you.

And this one:-

https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/245951

There are loads more - no time to link them all - they all show in the search.



> Which are the brands you have tested?



It's all listed in the thread linked in his sig.


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## bdancer (Jan 13, 2010)

LeifUK said:


> For goodness sake, yes I have searched this site, and found no comprehensive tests. Have you?



Wouldn't call it comprehensive, but here's one test of Eneloops vs. Rayovac 4.0; also farther down there's a graph of Duracell and Energizer.


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## Egsise (Jan 13, 2010)

LeifUK said:


> Which are the brands you have tested?


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## LeifUK (Jan 13, 2010)

bdancer said:


> Wouldn't call it comprehensive,



That's right, and that is why I asked here. I found odds and ends, but I'm wondering if there is any big test. I found a German magazine test that found brands fell into groups, with Eneloop and Infiniums into the two good groups. Sadly the link is now dead.


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## LeifUK (Jan 13, 2010)

I clicked on your link and got loads of Finnish, so closed the window as I do not speak Finnish. 

Lower down I see runtime tests, but no self discharge tests. So am I right to assume you did not test self discharge? And it looks like you did not test many NiMH brands. I know from (very) basic tests that Panasonic and Eneloop give almost the same runtimes. I'm going to do some self discharge tests, but hoped others had. It's just the way people here eulogise over Eneloop, I'm assuming there are authoritative and complete tests, but I could not find any here. 

Thanks. 



Egsise said:


>


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## amigafan2003 (Jan 13, 2010)

> I clicked on your link and got loads of Finnish, so closed the window as I do not speak Finnish.


http://translate.google.com/

You're making us GB chaps look lazy.


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## mr_maurice (Jan 13, 2010)

LeifUK said:


> I clicked on your link and got loads of Finnish, so closed the window as I do not speak Finnish.
> [...]
> Thanks.



A quick scroll down the linked page leads to what looks like an english tranlation made by Egsise himself http://flashlightnews.net/forum/index.php?topic=2274.0


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## LeifUK (Jan 13, 2010)

amigafan2003 said:


> http://translate.google.com/
> 
> You're making us GB chaps look lazy.



Okay, cut the wise guy style of remarks.  Do you yourself have any useful information on testing?


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## LeifUK (Jan 13, 2010)

mr_maurice said:


> A quick scroll down the linked page leads to what looks like an english tranlation made by Egsise himself http://flashlightnews.net/forum/index.php?topic=2274.0



Thanks. That's helpful. I'll take a look a bit later, when I get home.


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## LeifUK (Jan 13, 2010)

As an side, before posting this thread, I spent many many hours searching for any reasonably comprehensive tests of quality NiMH cells. (I'm not concerned about disposibles as I do not use them.) I found a couple, including the German test, the link for which died. 

I found a new link to the German test which might be of interest to people: 

http://www.guter-rat.de/ratgeber/premium/Akku-Langzeittest_544386.html

Even better just click below: 

pdf-Datei jetzt herunterladen  

I guess there is some ambiguity in the above as it is known that some brands rebadge various cells under the same name, and I'm not sure they give enough detail. Maybe only a photo suffices. I'll try to find the other test, I'm sure there was one.


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## LeifUK (Jan 13, 2010)

Egsise said:


> Good:
> AA, Sanyo Eneloop.
> AAA, Sony Cycle Energy Blue made in China, which might be ROV Hybrids, Sony does not have their own factory.
> 
> ...



Thanks, I checked your translated version.


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## Mr Happy (Jan 13, 2010)

The real picture with battery quality is only obtained from the accumulated experience of normal usage over months and years rather then from specific comparison tests. That is not to say the comparison tests are not useful, they are, but there is more to know than what the tests can tell you. For instance, how often does a cell up and die a few months after purchase, or how often do you get a dud cell right out of the pack? How well do the cells maintain strong performance after 100 charge cycles? How well does a cell hold its charge after a summer of hot days inside a car? How consistently do cells give a strong termination signal to the charger without missing and being overcharged?

These are answers you have to glean from dozens or hundreds of posts over the forum. There isn't a single comprehensive distillation in one place.


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## march.brown (Jan 13, 2010)

LeifUK said:


> As I think I've told you before, Eneloop are not twice the price. About £6.60 for 4 AA from 7 Day Shop. Same price as Panasonic Infinium. And that includes shipping. Mine arrived yesterday. I couldn't find any GP Recyklo AA at the price you say on ebay.
> 
> People on this forum continually state that Eneloop are the best. Has anyone actually done side by side testing against other good makes, not just the crap ones?


.
It was the AAA cells that I was after, to use in 3AAA torches.

"Decision made.

Just bought eight AAA GP Recycos for £7-78 from UK seller.

Many Thanks for your help."

Thank you all again very much for your help.
.


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## LeifUK (Jan 13, 2010)

Mr Happy said:


> The real picture with battery quality is only obtained from the accumulated experience of normal usage over months and years rather then from specific comparison tests. That is not to say the comparison tests are not useful, they are, but there is more to know than what the tests can tell you. For instance, how often does a cell up and die a few months after purchase, or how often do you get a dud cell right out of the pack? How well do the cells maintain strong performance after 100 charge cycles? How well does a cell hold its charge after a summer of hot days inside a car? How consistently do cells give a strong termination signal to the charger without missing and being overcharged?
> 
> These are answers you have to glean from dozens or hundreds of posts over the forum. There isn't a single comprehensive distillation in one place.



No doubt tests of runtime and self discharge are not the whole picture, but they are part of it. And no doubt some reports here are useful. I don't doubt that if Joe Bloggs has used two brands, and finds one unreliable, that report is useful. The advantage of tests is that they are controlled. So if several tests give similar results, the chances are that they are reliable, within the bounds of the tests. Reliability and QC are also part of the picture. 

It is commonplace here for people to say "Eneloop are the best", and it is unclear which people are saying that based on experience, or tests, or repeating what others say. So I am looking for some more controlled results. Anyway, I am performing some tests for my own use so I know which to choose in the future. I'm sticking to two respected brands (Panasonic and Sanyo) as I can get them easily. The problem with the other brands is working out what is under the skin, which is hard when ordering online.


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## Egsise (Jan 13, 2010)

Like I said earlier, AAA Eneloops are bad. Why?
Because in vee73's test AAA Eneloops were flat dead in cold temperature.


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## march.brown (Jan 13, 2010)

Egsise said:


> Like I said earlier, AAA Eneloops are bad. Why?
> Because in vee73's test AAA Eneloops were flat dead in cold temperature.


.
We get cold weather in South Wales (UK) ... This is the worst year that we have had for decades ... It went down to twenty-six Farenheit the other night ... I suppose that is about minus five Celsius ... Normally it doesn't get as low as that in Winter, probably down to minus two C ... So the car glove compartment will get below freezing.

I think that the Summer months pose the biggest problem for a torch in the glove compartment due to the heat in an enclosed parked car.

If the "Car Torch" fails then my carry torch would be OK as it is always in my Jacket pocket along with another spare AA cell ... I would consider putting spare AAA batteries in a polystyrene box which would be kept in the glove compartment too ... It would be easy to construct a 1" thick polystyrene box to cover a plastic battery case with the three spare batteries in.

Since the intention is to re-charge the cells once a year, I would hope this would be OK.

There is always the option of using Lithium primary cells, but I would prefer not to ... I could however put Lithium primary cells in as spares in a sealed, insulated box ... These would presumeably last literally for ever as standby batteries.
.


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## Mr Happy (Jan 13, 2010)

Eneloops will hold a decent charge for a year while stored inside a car.

Another option is to buy a fresh set of alkalines once a year and store them with the torch, but outside it, until needed. If we are talking AA cells the cost of this would be negligible.


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## RedForest UK (Jan 14, 2010)

Well before i bought most of my batteries eneloops and gp recykos were the two i considered as well, with recykos being only £3.89 for 4 with free postage from here: 

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/4-x-GP-RECYKO...E_W0QQitemZ390112559223QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_
ConsumerElectronics_Batteries_SM?hash=item5ad4854077

And this review shows cosistently better mah results on the aaa recykos than eneloops (tho i think eneloops hold their voltage longer and at higher loads)

https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/223842

Anyway, i ended up with aa eneloops of 7dayshop and aaa recykos of ebay, and both have been consistently high performance.


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## shark_za (Jan 14, 2010)

Apart from that testing in the cold (moot point in Africa really) I have tested Recyko against my new Duracell white tops and old "Hybriloops" as well as the other flavour of old Hybrio (new ones suck) with a Maha C-9000 at 500mA drains.

1x random cells of each type and 4x refresh/analyses done while shifting bays each time.


Cell - Result + Bay - Result + Bay - Result + Bay - Result + Bay - Averages 

Duraloop	1902	1	1938	4	1928	3	1879	2 1903
GP Recyko	2056	2	2093	1	2075	4	2089	3 2073.33
Hybriloop	1925	3	1925	2	1890	1	1886	4 1900.33
Hybrio 1912	4	1968	3	1945	2	1947	1 1934.67

Cant comment on long term use apart from the Hybriloops that are a few years old and still working strong even though they look tatty. 
Discharge too, in short term tests I can see little difference in the LSD properties. (3 months) 

Buy GP Recyko and stop worrying unless you freeze them.


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## LeifUK (Jan 14, 2010)

At the risk of repeating: 

https://www.candlepowerforums.com/posts/2478711&postcount=172

According to the above, there are three manufacturers: Sanyo, GP and Yausa. I think Panasonic Infinium (which I use) are the last ones. GP is GP Recyko, and Sanyo is of course Eneloop and some rebadged cells. 

There is also an excellent link: 

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y231/PeterAStoll/photogeek/batteries/AA_cap_time_0.gif

And the same for AAA. 

Looks like the OP made a good choice.


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## shark_za (Jan 14, 2010)

BUT !

The only other thing is to watch out for the voltage depression mentioned by some that my wife has seen in her Camera. 
Its a Canon instant something and the GP's warn of low battery a lot quicker than the Hybrio's we have been using.

In torches I cant sing their praises enough but I'll say in the cold or if you need to have high voltage in a device that measures this then stick with the Eneloops, GP's seem to hold charge as long and offer more mAh overall if your device does not shut itself down.


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## damon (Jan 14, 2010)

have you guys seen this yet?

NiMh Battery Shoot Out 
https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/79302














Eneloop Self Discharge study 
https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/149804


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## shark_za (Jan 14, 2010)

The question is how much does the lower voltage play a part in the overall output of the cell? 
Will the slightly higher voltage mean slightly less mA drain to allow the Eneloop to equal the real world runtime of the GP Recyko in regulated LED's?

Probably about the same in the end. 

As confirmed by these graphs.


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## march.brown (Jan 14, 2010)

RedForest UK said:


> Well before i bought most of my batteries eneloops and gp recykos were the two i considered as well, with recykos being only £3.89 for 4 with free postage from here:
> 
> http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/4-x-GP-RECYKO...E_W0QQitemZ390112559223QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_
> ConsumerElectronics_Batteries_SM?hash=item5ad4854077
> ...


.
.
The eight AAA Recycos that I bought were priced (like yours) at £3-89 for four from "express007uk" on Ebay, so I sent for two sets of four.
.
.
This thread gives an excellent review, thank you for posting it ... Well worth a read.
https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/223842
Based on this, I am perfectly happy with my purchase of the eight GP Recyco AAAs ... I shouldn't need any more batteries for quite a while now, unless I get another torch or two that uses AAA cells ... I have four torches that use 3 AAAs, though one will use a 18650 ... The aim is to have a couple of spare sets of 3 AAAs that are charged and ready ... Unfortunately quite a few of my AAA Hybrios are in use in remote controls for various items, hence the need to buy these Recyco AAAs ... If I could find a reliably leak-free make of Alkaline AAAs, I would buy them ... This would free a few more of my Hybrio/Eneloop/Recyco AAAs for my torches ... So can anyone suggest which Alkaline AAAs you would recommend as leakproof, please ? ... Should I keep using the Low self-discharge ones and perhaps just buy another four Recyco AAAs ? ... What do you all use ?

Many Thanks for all your help.
.
.


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## Egsise (Jan 14, 2010)

I think some of you should read the other posts before posting.
Comparing AA cells doesn't help, the original poster was talking about AAA cells.


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## march.brown (Jan 14, 2010)

I think that the Internal Impedance of the cell is equally important and should be as low as possible ... I worked for many years writing specifications for 48V and 110V battery systems plus commissioning and maintaining them ... These were Lead Acid open cells of very large Ampere-Hour capacity, in some case in the hundreds of Ah ... To reduce labour costs on maintenance, I went over to the sealed-for-life cells (gel-filled) which saved a lot of labour costs on topping-up, checking for internal shorts, taking specific gravity, etc on over 100 large systems throughout South Wales ... Sealed systems were replaced every ten years whereas the old cells systems were replaced every twenty ... Sealed cells were half the price of open cells and much quicker to install ... Going over to the sealed cells gave another problem which was due to higher internal impedance .. The chargers periodically did a pulse-test to measure internal impedance and an alarm was given if the result was out of limits.

Are there any chargers for AA or AAA cells that give an accurate measurement of internal impedance ? ... This could be monitored during each charge cycle and might indicate when a cell might be deteriorating ... It would be useful to know in advance when the cells are nearing the end of their life particularly when used in tactical situations.

Sorry about the rambling on, but having been retired sixteen years I assume the sealed for life technology has improved greatly in the same way that some NiMh cells now have low self-discharge.

Under high current charge or discharge situations, a lower internal impedance means less heating effects in the cell.
.


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## march.brown (Jan 14, 2010)

Egsise said:


> I think some of you should read the other posts before posting.
> Comparing AA cells doesn't help, the original poster was talking about AAA cells.


.
I am happy that according to other posters, the AAA GP Recycos have acquitted themselves so well ... Also, I don't know how the "Which Magazine" did their tests or whether they tested AA or AAA cells, but apparently they gave Recycos a "Best Buy" award.
.


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## shark_za (Jan 14, 2010)

Egsise said:


> I think some of you should read the other posts before posting.
> Comparing AA cells doesn't help, the original poster was talking about AAA cells.



My bad. 

Sorry.


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## Egsise (Jan 14, 2010)

march.brown said:


> .
> I am happy that according to other posters, the AAA GP Recycos have acquitted themselves so well ... Also, I don't know how the "Which Magazine" did their tests or whether they tested AA or AAA cells, but apparently they gave Recycos a "Best Buy" award.
> .


Yes I'm aware that GP ReCyko+ has won several tests, they were all made in room temperature.
But I think I need my flashlight, headlamp and camera to work when I go outdoors.
My 0.2lm

#¤!£? I think I need to buy some AAA ReCyko+'s and send them to vee73 for testing.
If they perform well, it would be great because Eneloop AAA's suck and Sony Cycle Energy Blue can be anything, at least GP's would be GP's for sure.


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## Niconical (Jan 14, 2010)

*Egsise*, it seems to me like you're putting too much emphasis on one test, done on just a pair of Reckyo AA and the Eneloop AAA. The cold tests are good, as are any test that is run outside of normal conditions, but the lack of any other data makes it (IMO) not right to recommend for or against a cell based on such sparse results. You seem to have condemned AA Recyko and AAA Eneloops based on a very small sampling of data. 

It would be easy to find someone on the forum who has an Ultrafire battery that works. I myself have had a AW battery that failed. That however does not mean that the official line should that Ultrafire batts are great and work, AW are bad and don't work. 

Small scale tests are part of the picture. They're useful, all those tests add up to our overall picture of a battery, a flashlight or anything else, but to strongly recommend against a cell type based on a single test done in extreme conditions is not very helpful, particularly to newer members who might take things at face value. The statement "Don't buy AA Reckyo, they fail in the cold" is not true, how about instead "I tested a pair of Reckyo AA, they performed poorly while they warmed up, but were then similar to the others"?

I mention this because you seem carried away with the results of single tests. Quite a while back when you were new on the forum you were aggressively pushing the fact that AA Recyko are in fact better the AA Eneloops! That was based on someone else's tests. Now with your own test you seem just as emphatic the other way around. What's next? You'll test a single set of Eneloops out of the pack and they'll have lower than expected mah remaining and you'll insist that Eneloops are the worst for self discharge?

Your results are useful and appreciated by everyone on the forum, but such singular data should be shared and accumulated and mixed into the pot, not used as definitive proof that every cell A is always better than every cell B.


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## InHisName (Jan 14, 2010)

march.brown said:


> Are there any chargers for AA or AAA cells that give an accurate measurement of internal impedance ? ... This could be monitored during each charge cycle and might indicate when a cell might be deteriorating ... It would be useful to know in advance when the cells are nearing the end of their life particularly when used in tactical situations.


Yes, the Maha C9000 does a test before it starts charging, if a cell fails, then it refuses to charge it and displays HIGH instead of numerics. I am sure there are a few others, also.

If you are looking for real numbers with milli-ohms values, then you need a PLD IRM-004 internal resistance meter. Made in Austrailia, Can be bought for $59AUD ~ $48USD 2 days ago. It was about $15 to ship to my USA address. Here is link it has link to pdf of manual to read before deciding to purchase. The numbers don't really mean that much until they are compared to similar tests and tests on same battery done at different months. Then you can recognize trends in increasing impedance.


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## march.brown (Jan 14, 2010)

Egsise said:


> Yes I'm aware that GP ReCyko+ has won several tests, they were all made in room temperature.
> But I think I need my flashlight, headlamp and camera to work when I go outdoors.


.
How cold does your camera get ? ... We always keep the cameras under coats in cold situations, so that they are always well above freezing ... The reason is that when you bring a cold object into a warm room, condensation occurs ... I've seen it happen on an Olympus OM2n in Sweden and the camera took a long while to get back to a normal (un-fogged) condition.

As for torches, they would normally be in my pocket till needed ... When they are in use in cold weather, the heat-sink does get warm as to an extent does the battery ... This obviously depends on the power of the torch.

If you leave the torch in a car glove-box overnight in seriously low temperatures then that is a different matter and obviously a battery with the best possible low temperature tollerance would be essential ... Alternatively, you could bring them indoors if possible to avoid freezing.

In my case in the UK (South Wales coast) we don't get much below about minus five Celsius (usually better), so there wouldn't be the need for a battery with proven operation at your sort of temperatures ... This year has been bad at about -5C and is the worst for decades ... Normally most of my Geraniums survive easily ... This year I've lost them all and will have to buy new ones ... Still it kills all the garden nasties I suppose.
.


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## march.brown (Jan 14, 2010)

InHisName said:


> Yes, the Maha C9000 does a test before it starts charging, if a cell fails, then it refuses to charge it and displays HIGH instead of numerics. I am sure there are a few others, also.
> 
> If you are looking for real numbers with milli-ohms values, then you need a PLD IRM-004 internal resistance meter. Made in Austrailia, Can be bought for $59AUD ~ $48USD 2 days ago. It was about $15 to ship to my USA address. Here is link it has link to pdf of manual to read before deciding to purchase. The numbers don't really mean that much until they are compared to similar tests and tests on same battery done at different months. Then you can recognize trends in increasing impedance.


.
That PLD IRM-004 looks exactly the thing for anyone seriously into battery research ... I wish I could justify the purchase, but unfortunately I can't.
.


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## Egsise (Jan 14, 2010)

Niconical, do you mean that if I test another pack of ReCyko+ or Eneloop cells, I get different results?

What kind of additional data I should collect?



> The statement "Don't buy AA Reckyo, they fail in the cold" is not true, how about instead "I tested a pair of Reckyo AA, they performed poorly while they warmed up, but were then similar to the others"?


 I thought I did:


> -During the runtime test the flashlight is in room temperature, flashlight is turned on 30sec after taken from freezer. First reading is after 30sec runtime, after this webcam takes picture of the luxmeter every 60sec.





> I mention this because you seem carried away with the results of single tests. Quite a while back when you were new on the forum you were aggressively pushing the fact that AA Recyko are in fact better the AA Eneloops! That was based on someone else's tests.


I questioned that Eneloops are better than ReCykos, read that whole thread to understand why I did so.

I'm not either Sanyo or GP fan, but I know the limitations of different cells.
700 or 800 mAh, 85 or 70% self-discharge, 500 or 1000 cycles.
Who cares, the actual difference in normal use is so small that it is hard to see it.
Sanyo, GP, ROV, Varta, Yuasa etc. just get which is easiest and cheapest to buy.
Most of my cells are not Eneloops or ReCykos, I have Sony LSD's which I get 40% cheaper.


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## Niconical (Jan 14, 2010)

Egsise said:


> Niconical, do you mean that if I test another pack of ReCyko+ or Eneloop cells, I get different results?
> 
> What kind of additional data I should collect?


 
No, not at all. Your tests are good and you clearly know what you're doing. 

What I do think though is the results should be presented in context. Perhaps present the findings along the lines of _"A pair of Reckyo AA tested in extreme cold (-22C) were the slowest of my testers to come to life but they then did provide power for an acceptable time"_, rather than _"Reckyo AA = bad they don't work when it's cold",_ as that doesn't give a complete picture.


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## LeifUK (Jan 14, 2010)

Niconical said:


> No, not at all. Your tests are good and you clearly know what you're doing.
> 
> What I do think though is the results should be presented in context. Perhaps present the findings along the lines of _"A pair of Reckyo AA tested in extreme cold (-22C) were the slowest of my testers to come to life but they then did provide power for an acceptable time"_, rather than _"Reckyo AA = bad they don't work when it's cold",_ as that doesn't give a complete picture.



While I don't want to criticise Egsise's very useful tests, I do agree about your qualification. As march.brown says, in the UK cold means 0 Celcius. The lowest temperature *ever* recorded in the UK is about -20 Celcius, whereas when I lived in sunny Montreal, -15 Celcius during the day was not uncommon.


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## Egsise (Jan 14, 2010)

Niconical said:


> No, not at all. Your tests are good and you clearly know what you're doing.
> 
> What I do think though is the results should be presented in context. Perhaps present the findings along the lines of _"A pair of Reckyo AA tested in extreme cold (-22C) were the slowest of my testers to come to life but they then did provide power for an acceptable time"_, rather than _"Reckyo AA = bad they don't work when it's cold",_ as that doesn't give a complete picture.


I know that the number of tested cells is small, but average consumer just grabs a pack and trusts that they work.
Lottery? Perhaps.

The purpose of my AA test is to test how those cells perform in cold.
The results are valid only for the few minutes from the start before the cells heat from internal resistance and heat coming from the led and the driver.
Of course those cells work when they are warm, that has been tested gazillion times.
It would be interesting to see how little the voltages sag under a smaller load, unfortunately I don't have equipment for that.
My test is like a worst case scenario, at least for the majority.

vee73's AAA tests are different, but clearly in his tests the AAA Eneloops are completely dead in -19°C.

Perhaps it would be good to add some opinions that how those cells perform, but isn't the graph enough.
It would be like explaining beamshot comparison, who cares of opinions when you can see the difference at a glance.


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## Affi75 (Jan 14, 2010)

*Just some thoughts*



LeifUK said:


> ...I found a new link to the German test which might be of interest to people:
> 
> http://www.guter-rat.de/ratgeber/premium/Akku-Langzeittest_544386.html ...



Hi folks,
That German test can be interpreted in different ways.
They have calculated remaining power based on the amount of charge the batteries actually held (ReCyko 1969mA, Eneloop 1842mA etc).

But, if you calculate remaining power based on the _promised_ capacity as printed on the package, you do get a different result:

After ten weeks
Eneloop AA = 83,4%
Infinium AA = 81,4%
ReCyko AA = 81,1%

Eneloop AAA = 85,7%
Infinium AAA = 72,5%
ReCyko AAA = 84%

Looking at it this way, the Eneloops gives you the most based of it's promised value, for both sizes.

But from another point of view - lets say that they are all equally priced; then you'll have the most power for your money to actually USE after ten weeks if you choose Infinium AA and ReCyko AAA (1711mA and 715mA).

If they in addition are available cheaper than the Eneloops, they would truly be a real bargain. 

- What we don't know is how much they have left after a longer period, 6 or 12 months. Maybe the real winner would only reveal itself then?

It seems though that it doesn't look too good for the promised "85% after one year at 22 degrees celsius" when they all have lost approx. 10% within two and a half month. The discharge curve would really have to flatten seriously from that point on if it's gonna be 85% left 9 months later..

--
Must say I'm surprised seeing the results for the regular NiMH Varta 2700. A staggering difference from the other regular NiMH's! How did they manage that? Maybe Varta secretly implemented LSD-technology without telling anyone?.. ;-)

Cheers
Alf


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## march.brown (Jan 14, 2010)

It is looking as though, for normal (UK) temperatures, that virtually any of the pre-charged/low self-discharge cells are OK ... Ampere/hour capacity is within about 10% of the manufacturer/re-labelers quoted capacity ... Voltages are within very close limits and for low current demands you just choose the cheapest fairly well known brand ... Since there are only three manufacturers of these cells, you may as well stick with (in the UK) the GP Recyco which is one of these three manufacturers ... All we need now is a test taken from a reasonable sample number (from several different batches) to give the average internal resistance/impedance of these cells.

Irrespective of the output (lumens) of the torch, a drain of say one amp would be a good test for a cell of 800/850mAh (AAA) or two amps for a 2400mAh AA cell ... This would give about an hour (ish) of use on the highest lumens setting for a single cell torch ... This doesn't really come into the equation for my useage as I don't have any very high power torches ... However, those who need higher currents may have to be more selective in their battery selection, particularly when ultra-low temperatures are concerned.

With the advent of good pulse width modulation systems and DC to DC convertors, it would appear that a torch will still give reliable operation with a fairly well discharged battery ... Having studied modulation systems many years ago, I find it strange that PWM frequencies are so low ... I realise that the frame scanning frequency on TVs is only 50 or 60 Hz, but I would have preferred to see the torch PWM frequency about ten times this ... This though is my personal preference to give more accurate lumen settings ... I have not researched the LED characteristics, so don't know how long an LED takes to be fully on when the voltage is applied ... This period would obviously determine the maximum PWM frequency.

PWM will still give strobe effects when you move your fingers between the torch and the wall, but these effects will be less obvious at higher PWM frequencies ... Again, this does not bother me though I can see that it might influence other users choice.

Again, many thanks to all the other "posters" ... It is nice to see that PWM is making a come-back after I finished my studies in the 60's ... Pulse amplitude modulation could easily have been chosen instead ... With this method, the maximum pulse amplitude would be the maximum operating voltage of the LED.

I only got into this "torch" thing recently, but realised that I needed a few additional torches for personal and household use ... If a torch fails in my home, I just go into the next room where there is another one ... I didn't realise that torches were so complicated for people to select ... However, I think that, like cars, there is a sort of snobish minority that need to spend a fortune on what is basically a portable light ... O.K, some expensive brands might be more reliable than the cheapies, but you will probably have a back-up as well so will be covered in the case of a failure.... Buy whatever you can afford ... A beautiful shiny finish doesn't give you a more reliable torch ... A torch is only as good as the battery inside it ... When I read about the fire risk or explosion risk of certain Lithium cells, I look at all my NiMh torches and smile in satisfaction ... I do have a couple of 18650 torches, though the majority are either AA or AAA.
.


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## Niconical (Jan 15, 2010)

Well, I'll say this about this thread. 

I love all the battery comparisons. Personally I'm far more interested in batteries and chargers than the flashlights. I love comparing the specs, looking at the percentages, all of that. Right now I have 8 new LSD batts on break in. I measured the voltage out of pack last night, then wrote down the existing capacity after a 400ma discharge. After the break in I'll write down those numbers, then do a couple of 1000ma discharges and only then will I start using them, but first I'll mark them and put them on my spreadsheet. 

Yep, that's me, and I know I'm not the only one!

Where I think we do go wrong sometimes though is we have a tendancy to overcomplicate things for the new guy. The OP here (march.brown) is clearly no dummy and knows his amps from his volts and wotnot, so he'll be fine. Often though we'll get the standard newbie question of "what nimh batteries are good?" and we bombard the poor guy with pages of figures. 

I think what it comes down to is this. Other than maybe a couple of exceptions (for example I read bad things about those Vapex LSD cells, but they might have improved), the question of "what nimh or specifically LSD battery should I get?" the answer should really be "Whatever LSD is cheapest or on offer in your area or that you can order". Eneloop, Recyko, Rayovac 4.0, Varta ready2use, whatever, any one of them will be fine. Often all people are looking for is reassurance that their purchase was sound and that their batteries will serve them well, which any LSD brand will do. 

We can discuss the variances from one to the other, I love all that, but often those discussions happen in a thread started by some new guy who just wanted to get a few good batts and by the end of page 1 the poor guy is more confused than when he first posted the question. 

Eneloops have their place at the top of the tree, and they deserve it, but although I have maybe 40 of them in current service, if someone were able to secretly swap them for another popular LSD brand without me knowing, I very much doubt I would become aware of it in normal use, be it flashlights, toys, remotes, cordless phone or anything else I use them in.


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## Egsise (Jan 15, 2010)

Well said, what we should do is keep some track on LSD cells that clearly are fakes, or otherwise perform really poorly.
Recommending to buy _any_ LSD's has it's risks.


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## LeifUK (Jan 15, 2010)

*Re: Just some thoughts*



Affi75 said:


> Hi folks,
> That German test can be interpreted in different ways.
> They have calculated remaining power based on the amount of charge the batteries actually held (ReCyko 1969mA, Eneloop 1842mA etc).
> 
> ...



It has been reported here before that the discharge curve does flatten dramatically. See here: 

http://www.stefanv.com/electronics/sanyo_eneloop.html

I think the conclusion of many studies is that there is not a lot to choose between the various brands. Certainly not if you recharge the batteries every few months. My own experience with Panasonic 2600 mAh cells is that they give little improvement over Panasonic Infinium 2100 mAh despite costing 50% more.  So only buy them if capacity is *critical*.


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## march.brown (Jan 15, 2010)

*Re: Just some thoughts*



LeifUK said:


> It has been reported here before that the discharge curve does flatten dramatically. See here:
> 
> http://www.stefanv.com/electronics/sanyo_eneloop.html


 
That's a well written article and suitable for any reader even without too much technical knowledge.
.


> I think the conclusion of many studies is that there is not a lot to choose between the various brands. Certainly not if you recharge the batteries every few months. My own experience with Panasonic 2600 mAh cells is that they give little improvement over Panasonic Infinium 2100 mAh despite costing 50% more.  So only buy them if capacity is *critical*.


Having now read up (a fair bit) on low self-discharge batteries plus other ordinary NiMh batteries, I realise that I do not treat them at all well ... 

When I get them, I stick them on charge straight away ... When charged, I then try them out in a torch for 30 seconds or so and then put them in the plastic cases for safe storage in my desk drawer ... That drawer contains only batteries ... When I used the ordinary NiMh cells, I used to re-charge the cells once a month which was a bit of a pain particularly as I used to do all the assorted AA and AAAs in one day ... I have three chargers that each will hold up to four cells so it was quite a production line ... I did this for years and was a bit fed up with all the time spent on charging.

Now with the advent of the low self-discharge cells, I can space my charges at much longer intervals of at least six months ... If it gets to seven months, so what.

I probably mistreat my batteries as bad as (or worse than) the average ordinary battery user ... I don't cycle my cells a few times before using them (to achieve maximum capacity) as apparently we should ... When my torches lose power, I stick another set of batteries in and charge the discharged ones before putting them in the drawer with the other charged cells ... 

My car torch will have to put up with being left unused and unloved for many months at a time and might only get its cells charged once a year prior to Winter ... It might get a charged set in the Summer if I'm in a good mood or if I remember the car torch exists ... In view of this, I might (or not) get a few Energiser Lithiums to leave in the car just in case ... I love the fact that they can lay there for mega-years and still be perfectly useable when needed. 

I still have my every day carry (1AA), just in case other torches (or batteries) play up, with a couple of spare AAs ... These low self-discharge cells were absolutely made for people like me to abuse ... I love them.

I realise that there are others who need ultra-reliable batteries and torches in their line of work and who treat their equipment with the respect it deserves ... If I was in their position, no doubt I would do likewise ... But I am not in a situation where equipment choice is critical ... I have torches in virtually every room so if one fails, I only have to walk a few yards to get a good one ... If I go a few yards further, my battery drawer is full of charged cells plus there is usually a couple of spare working torches on the desk ... I keep my EDC torch in the bedroom at nights along with the dedicated bedroom torch, just in case. 

I will probably get the CPF "Cruelty to Batteries" award for outstanding neglect/cruelty to energy storage devices.
.


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## Albinoni (Jan 15, 2010)

amigafan2003 said:


> yes.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## loser (Jan 18, 2010)

they cost about the same at where i live. things in UK ARE expensive


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## waddup (Jan 20, 2010)

ill say that the quality of your charger may impact how good your cells are.

great cells an a dubious charger may not perform as well as mediocre cells an in a great charger.

of course, great cells in a great charger is the way to go.:candle:


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