# 5-Watt Fire Breathing Dragon Now With Six NEW Batteries (Gulp!)



## MR Bulk (Sep 15, 2002)

*LATEST LIGHT METER READING, PLUS BEAMSHOT PHOTO VS. SUREFIRE M4 (see latest post at or near end)...*

Although the 5-watt in a Legend LX was bright (699fc), I knew it was being way underdriven at only 6V (and probably less as the Sanyo 123s in it were kinda used) and I wanted to bring the 5W closer to its peak performance spec to see what it could do.

I got some very good technical advice from dat2zip and lambda about checking current and then stringing resistors together and testing at each step, but the whole bundle ended up looking like the grand prize winner in some boy scout knot-tying contest, plus I wanted focusing ability which meant everything had to fit through the reflector opening which was too small, and I didn't want to cut off any of the reflector to widen the hole because I'd lose some of the focusing range, and...well, you get the idea.

So I very carefully metered all my used AA batteries and came up with five that measured:

1.274V
1.241V
1,259V
1.499V
1.500V

for a total of *6.773V* (I believe max spec on the 5-watts is 6.8V @ 700mA).

I had to build a gigantic heatsink with an extended post (or pedestal, as McGizmo so elegantly put it) to match the height of the stock incandescent bulb's filament so I could retain the focusing range for which the reflector was designed.

The end result was several good things:

1) it has full focusing range, from tight spot to wide flood (with the dreaded MagLite black hole, unfortunately)

2) this particular 5W seems to still be running well below its peak as it does not get hot at all (after being on for a couple of minutes, I unscrewed the head and found the LS/post junction was actually _cool_ to the touch)

3) yet the dang thing metered *2130* lux at one meter, or 2130 foot-candles...

Anyway here are some pics of this jade-green Fire Breathing Dragon, note especially the beamshot pic on the ceiling in broad daylight at 12 o'clock noon, where it puts the original DirectDrive 6V 699-lux 5W cyan Legend LX to shame:







I know some people (Hi Ya Lambda, dat2zip, McGizmo, the other Wayne, et al!) are gonna cringe to hear me say this, but -- after the Arctic Silver completely cures, I'm gonna run it at extended minutes and check temps, and if it's still reasonably cool, I am going to FILL up BOTH of the 3AA battery packs with SIX fresh AAs (using five w/one dummy now) and let'er rip at NINE VOLTS!

(and hope like hell it doesn't literally _become_ a Fire Breathing Dragon...)


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## Glow Bug (Sep 15, 2002)

Its a dirty job but somebodys gotta do it All in the name of science. Thanks for your reserch Mr. Bulk.


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## MR Bulk (Sep 15, 2002)

Yeah, and at $28 a pop too, if the Dragon becomes an ember...

Am I brave or what?


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## John Frederick (Sep 15, 2002)

Awsome!



When you fire her up at 9v, just go outside and point it at the sky. Some of us on the west coast may be able to see your light bouncing off the atmoshere


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## lambda (Sep 15, 2002)

Nice Mod!

That Garrity didn't last long in its natural state in your hands. 

Can't wait to hear what it will do on fresh batteries. Keep us posted, and keep up the great work!


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## sunspot (Sep 15, 2002)

Very cool Charlie. Can you do a set of pics on the pedestal and whatever it is you set it in?


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## McGizmo (Sep 15, 2002)

Charlie,

You don't need to wait for the Arctic Silver to cure; you will post cure it with the heat sink 

Giv' em Bra!!!!!!!!!!!


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## McGizmo (Sep 15, 2002)

Charlie,

I think you still have plenty of room to move. I just measured the 5W I have in the turbo head from 1 meter and got a 3930 lux reading. It's running at 660 mA. Can you measure the voltage drop across the LED when it's on (welders goggles might help  ) With a good tight beam, I expect you can get easily over 4000 lux.


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## MR Bulk (Sep 15, 2002)

Well I'm already measuring other batteries as I write this. Don't want to ramp up the voltage Too quick.

As for the post/pedestal setup, it is simply a post arctic'd to a plate. The finish sanding to the end of the post was critical though, since you want a perfectly flat contact area between the end of a long skinny cylinder and a wide flat plate. I had to use the drill press and some other stuff to get the contact areas perfectly flat and shiny smooth. But I am thinking that having this part machined would be the best way, all in one piece. Plus the post could then be gradually widened as it extended down from the Luxeon for more heatsinking mass.

Nine volts -- soon!


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## MR Bulk (Sep 15, 2002)

3930 lux, hooboy! Then again my LS might be different from yours...

Now how do I measure the V drop -- stick the leads on the LS tabs (when it's on)?


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## McGizmo (Sep 15, 2002)

Charlie,

Yeah, stick the leads on the tabs when It's on and you will know how much voltage is going through the LED. Be interesting to see what the voltage is under load compared to unloaded.


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## MR Bulk (Sep 15, 2002)

Just measured current, 540 mA...


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## MR Bulk (Sep 15, 2002)

Just measured voltage across the led leads (had to wear muh shades plus stuck a strip of masking tape over emitter -- shoulda used duct tape, it's like that masking wasn't even there) and got 5.8V...

Does any of this compute?


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## MR Bulk (Sep 15, 2002)

Comparison beamshot to the brightest 1-watt I have, a white low dome in an LGI which I measured at 800+ lux at one meter. The brightness and contrast were cranked up for this picture in order just to _see_ the LGI's beam -- picture taken from the floor up to the ceiling about 16 feet above:


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## mc (Sep 15, 2002)

Mr. Bulk, you having fun yet, or what? 

Thanks for the updates!


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## MR Bulk (Sep 15, 2002)

Nope, need More fun! I substituted the ~1.2V batteries for five fresher ones, all metering around 1.45V+, still one dummy in there, went to the LM631, stood back one meter away and:






Will be doing junction temperature checks soon, but I don't think putting six whole batteries in there (ever) would be very wise...


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## The_LED_Museum (Sep 15, 2002)

4680lux for your brightest,






vs. only 309fc for my brightest current LS prototype. I think the LGI will be brighter, but first I have to *find* it.




(No yardstick, so I can't measure directly in Lux yet).


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## McGizmo (Sep 15, 2002)

Good job Charlie!!!!


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## MR Bulk (Sep 15, 2002)

> Originally posted by The LED Museum:
> _I think the LGI will be brighter, *but first I have to *find* it.*_


<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">*WHAT???!!!* You lost it already? (hmmm, mebbe check the _toliet_?)


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## MR Bulk (Sep 15, 2002)

I've been thinking all day about brightness, and heat, and lux, and foot-candles, and focusing -- and I just realized how important FOCUSING is when I went outside now that it's finally dark. I shined the FBD into the trees of the small valley behind my house. And it dawned on me that a properly driven 5-watt Luxeon mounted in a good reflector (no collimators needed), can finally be a match for incandescents. For instance, this tree is thirty-five yeards away:






THIRTY FIVE YARDS AWAY. Best my other LEDs could do was cast a dim, ghostly glow, none of which was reflected back enough to be picked up on camera. When a 5-watt Luxeon is well focused, especially the white ones when they become available, we will see led lights start taking away the one advantage incandescents had up until now.


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## MR Bulk (Sep 16, 2002)

Did a short run time test tonight -- after 20 minutes the warmest spot on the light (with head left off for easier and more accurate temperature measurement) was at the junction of the aluminum pedestal and large heatsink plate below, at 95 F. The area near the top of the pedestal, a millimeter or two below the emitter, was actually lower, at 91 F. And the inch or so just below the plate and light body junction was in the low 90s as well, indicating that sufficient heat paths for the emitter were created.

The lonely test light, broadcasting its somber turquoise lighthouse beam inside my flashlight cabinet:







Maybe 9V is indeed possible with good heatsinking in a big aluminum flashlight?


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## MR Bulk (Sep 16, 2002)

Okay I take that back, it does get hotter -- after 35 minutes the pedestal/plate junction is now at 97 F...


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## vcal (Sep 16, 2002)

It sounds (and looks) like your particular Luxeon will do very nicely @ 700mA and at least 7.2 volts.:<))
But I'll also bet that the temp-as well as the amperage, will rise DRAMATICALLY above 8 volts or so........


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## BigHonu (Sep 16, 2002)

Charlie,

Pretty impressive stuff! 9V huh? Eddie would go...

Aloha!


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## MR Bulk (Sep 16, 2002)

_"I'll also bet that the temp-as well as the amperage, will rise DRAMATICALLY above 8 volts or so."_

Yeah vcal, and so should lumen output -- ain't that exciting?

After an hour plus, the temperature stabilized at 97 F at the warmest point on the light so I terminated the test.

I will try this with five FRESH Kirkland AA batteries tomorrow -- since all tests and figures reported today were with used batteries, most all of them multimetering at less than 1.5V...

Good night.


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## MR Bulk (Sep 16, 2002)

Hey Honu,

Hmmm, should we start calling ourselves Eddie?

To put this all in perspective, the absolute brightest LGI ever put together, with a one-of-a-kind 1 watt Luxeon, produces over 800fc on plain alkalines and current draw measures an astounding *1.89 amps*. This guy will not live nearly as long as an LS driven to spec, but what's that saying about The Candle That Burns Brightest...?

I am simply trying to find that threshold with the 5 watt...and then configure my lights to operate a little beneath it.

Muhammad Ali once said about the material things he accumulated in life, "We don't really own it, we jus' holdin' it till we pass on"...so if my led lights don't give 100,000 hours of service but instead provide only 50 or 25 or even 10,000 or 5,000 hours, given the intermittent nature of flashlight usage I think I would have held it long enough...

Okay, now I must REALLY say good night...


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## Doug S (Sep 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by MR Bulk:
> *Did a short run time test tonight -- after 20 minutes the warmest spot on the light (with head left off for easier and more accurate temperature measurement) was at the junction of the aluminum pedestal and large heatsink plate below, at 95 F. The area near the top of the pedestal, a millimeter or two below the emitter, was actually lower, at 91 F. And the inch or so just below the plate and light body junction was in the low 90s as well, indicating that sufficient heat paths for the emitter were created.
> 
> *


<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I interpret your data differently. The fact that you measured a lower temperature closer to the heat source than you did further along the thermal path to the environment strongly suggests that something is seriously wrong with the measurement methodology. If you are using one of those IR thermometers, that explains it since they are really the wrong tool for the job. 
BTW, this is a way cool mod!


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## McGizmo (Sep 16, 2002)

Doug,

Dumb question: is it possible that since the LED and pedestal are exposed to the air that some type of convection current has been initiated and is flowing near the "low" reading area or is it a condition of physics that the temp differential should follow a linear progression from the source of heat as you move away from it?

Charlie, 

If you are using IR measurements, did you try some masking tape on the Al?

Charlie and Big Honu,

It warmed my heart to see mention of Eddie.  Growing up, the Aikau brothers were legends and it's really cool to see that Eddie and his attitude of life lives on as a statement of courage and selflessness! Ridding waves and learning to flow with the ocean was the best classroom I ever attended. Graduates of the North Shore are some of the most learned people I have ever met. 

Regards,

Don


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## BuddTX (Sep 16, 2002)

Wow, now if they only came in white!


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## ElektroLumens (Sep 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by Doug S:
> * </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by MR Bulk:
> Did a short run time test tonight -- after 20 minutes the warmest spot on the light (with head left off for easier and more accurate temperature measurement) was at the junction of the aluminum pedestal and large heatsink plate below, at 95 F. The area near the top of the pedestal, a millimeter or two below the emitter, was actually lower, at 91 F. And the inch or so just below the plate and light body junction was in the low 90s as well, indicating that sufficient heat paths for the emitter were created.
> 
> *


*<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I interpret your data differently. The fact that you measured a lower temperature closer to the heat source than you did further along the thermal path to the environment strongly suggests that something is seriously wrong with the measurement methodology. If you are using one of those IR thermometers, that explains it since they are really the wrong tool for the job. 
BTW, this is a way cool mod!*</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am wondering, in regards to measuring the heat, about using a LM35 circuit I have, and epoxying it directly on the aluminum heat sink beneath the emitter. When I hook up the DVM, it should tell me the junction temperature, correct?

I plan to mount one of the 5 watts, which I hope to have today, on a aluminum disc, and mount the LM35 circuit on the underside, and press it into a 3 'D' cell flashlight I have. I have a 6AA battery pack I have modded to fit inside the flashlight, just slides right in. I'll connect a few wires to the circuit and pass them to the outside of the flashlight, which I can measure the temperature with a DVM. 

Any comments?

Wayne J.


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## Doug S (Sep 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by McGizmo:
> *Doug,
> 
> Dumb question: is it possible that since the LED and pedestal are exposed to the air that some type of convection current has been initiated and is flowing near the "low" reading area or is it a condition of physics that the temp differential should follow a linear progression from the source of heat as you move away from it?
> ...


<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Not dumb question. Yes to both. [OK, for the math dilettantes, it is a monotonic progression, not necessarily linear] for us common folk, heat like sh*t flows downhill.


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## Doug S (Sep 16, 2002)

> I am wondering, in regards to measuring the heat, about using a LM35 circuit I have, and epoxying it directly on the aluminum heat sink beneath the emitter. When I hook up the DVM, it should tell me the junction temperature, correct?
> 
> I plan to mount one of the 5 watts, which I hope to have today, on a aluminum disc, and mount the LM35 circuit on the underside, and press it into a 3 'D' cell flashlight I have. I have a 6AA battery pack I have modded to fit inside the flashlight, just slides right in. I'll connect a few wires to the circuit and pass them to the outside of the flashlight, which I can measure the temperature with a DVM.
> 
> ...


<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The temperature that you are reading is that of the LM35 die. With careful thermal coupling, this can be close to the temperature of the surface that you have mounted it on. This can be very much lower that the temperature of the Luxeon junction. Fortunately, the Luxeon datasheets give you the means to calculate the difference. I am assuming that you are using an LM35 in a TO-92 package. The lowest resistance pathway to the die in this package is via the leads so the temperature of the leads most influences the measurement you get. Below is the link to the LM35 datasheet. Checkout the discussion on page 6 about thermal coupling. 
http://www.national.com/ds/LM/LM35.pdf 
It would be worthwhile to review the discussion in this link also: 
http://www.candlepowerforums.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=14;t=000376#000000

I am pleased to see some folks getting serious about doing some good temperature measurements. I have felt like a lonely voice on this issue. I think that I may have dat2zip convinced tho.


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## woodbender (Sep 16, 2002)

I know CNC DAN has a limit on what he can turn on the diameter of a part, but your heatsink idea for the 5w might be a great part to have turned.


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## ElektroLumens (Sep 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by Doug S:
> [QB
> 
> I am pleased to see some folks getting serious about doing some good temperature measurements. I have felt like a lonely voice on this issue. I think that I may have dat2zip convinced tho.[/QB]


<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The back of the LM35 is where I though the temp was picked up. Anyway, I can experiment with getting the ground lead right up to and touching the emitter base.

I also have some thermal fuses, which can be epoxied underneath the junction. I don't remember the critical junction temperature, but the ones I have are set for 102 degrees centigrade. Possibly I could get some with a lower temp, having calculated what that would be beneath the 1/8" thick aluminum.

Wayne J.


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## MR Bulk (Sep 16, 2002)

Hmm, interesting comments all. And all certainly appreciated.

On that temperature thing, all I know, as an _un_educated and _un_graduated bumbling fledgling electronics experimenter, is that along with the IR thermometer readings (which I did over and over, at every conceivable angle, to verify that those were indeed the readings I was getting), I also did the foolproof caveman's temperature reading -- touching my fingers, thumbs, and various other body parts on the light (not what you think -- I squeezed my eyes tightly shut and then pressed my nose and even my lips against the heatsink), and it was never hot at all, just kinda comfortably warm.

So although certain individuals may be right about the scientific methodology or lack thereof, all I know is that this light is not too hot to use even more power -- with the attenuate brightness increase it would produce.

*Go Eddie!*


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## MR Bulk (Sep 16, 2002)

Latest update for all you 5W experimenters out there:

Took out all five old batteries (they all measured from 1.37 to 1.39V) and stuck in five brand new Kirklands from the package -- all of them measured exactly 1.62V x 5 = *8.10V*.

Turned on the Fire Breathing Dragon and from one meter away the light meter showed *5670* lux.

Did not do a temp test, was afraid -- very afraid. Let me get a couple cups of Hawaiian EddieJava in me and maybe then...


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## Glow Bug (Sep 16, 2002)

What are ya? A MAN OR A mouse? Come on...squeak up! If this works, I can use my AA Li Ions to power one of these babys As Nike says.."Just do it!!!"


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## MR Bulk (Sep 16, 2002)

Hey, I got an idea! How 'bout _You_ do it...?


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## ElektroLumens (Sep 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by Doug S:
> * </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by ElektroLumens:
> I also have some thermal fuses, which can be epoxied underneath the junction. I don't remember the critical junction temperature, but the ones I have are set for 102 degrees centigrade. Possibly I could get some with a lower temp, having calculated what that would be beneath the 1/8" thick aluminum.
> 
> Wayne J.*


<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thermal fuses or thermal switches? The fuses are one shot devices, the switches reset. 102C is probably a bit high. Probably the very best thermal resistance from the die to the point of measurement would be 11C/W so it would only take 3 watts to be at 135C before your fuse [switch?] tripped. I like the idea of using a thermal switch on turbocharged mods to protect the LED. One could parallel the switch with a resistor so that instead of going out, the light shifts to a lower current level if overheated. I have a few thermal switches on hand with trip points of 70, 75, and 78C. I could drop one in the mail to you if you are interested.[/QB]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Sure, I would be interested in the thermal fuses. Send me an email, and I'll give my my mailing address.

I need to look and see where I purchased mine, I think it was Digikey. Anyway, they're not hard to find. I couldn't find thermal switches at the time, so I just purchased thermal fuses.

The idea of having the light switch over to a resistor path is a very good one. If the light overheats, it just drops down to low power. Ambient temperature could have a play here. We may test it and it may work great. But then we go to a place where it stays hot at night, and pow! 

Wayne J.
www.elektrolumens.com


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## ElektroLumens (Sep 16, 2002)

MrBulk,

I was extremely cautious at first with the 1 watt. Lamda, as far as I can remember, was the first one, or one of the first, to go DD. He kept kidding me about using resistance. Eventually I tried it, and like it! Sometimes I have doubts, but they just keep shining. It might be possible they don't last as long. Oh well!

Somebodies gotta give direct drive a try. Might as well be you!





I am pretty impressed with the 'pedastal' design. Very nice. I might do something similar? 

DDB = 'DIRECT DRIVE, BABY!'





Wayne J.
www.elektrolumens.com


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## MR Bulk (Sep 16, 2002)

I think these guys (both 1W and 5W) are built to go way over spec, at least the ones I've personally handled and worked with. I have not read many posts (in fact not even one, unless can someone refresh my memory?) where a Luxeon went "Poof" yet.

If anything, it may be a slow degradation over time, but by then there would undoubtedly be newer, even brighter Luxeons (or Nichias, or...) to hit the market. Then the "old" Luxeon would be obsolete anyway.

Besides, remember what Ali said...


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## Doug S (Sep 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by ElektroLumens:
> *
> 
> 
> ...


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## PsycoBob[Q2] (Sep 16, 2002)

2 possible improvements for you. (I'll be trying this when I get my own 5w)

1. Use a copper pedistal, either with a straight rod pushed into a tight hold in the aluminum block (possibley with AS epoxy) or thread the end of the rod, and the block. Perhaps even replace the block with copper.

2. Mill the wholde thing out of a block of copper. (rather wasteful of metal)

I'll be trying the threaded copper into copper with mine... as soon as I have the cash for the 5wLS.


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## McGizmo (Sep 17, 2002)




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## Doug S (Sep 17, 2002)

> Originally posted by ElektroLumens:
> I also have some thermal fuses, which can be epoxied underneath the junction. I don't remember the critical junction temperature, but the ones I have are set for 102 degrees centigrade. Possibly I could get some with a lower temp, having calculated what that would be beneath the 1/8" thick aluminum.
> 
> Wayne J.[/QB]


<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thermal fuses or thermal switches? The fuses are one shot devices, the switches reset. 102C is probably a bit high. Probably the very best thermal resistance from the die to the point of measurement would be 11C/W so it would only take 3 watts to be at 135C before your fuse [switch?] tripped. I like the idea of using a thermal switch on turbocharged mods to protect the LED. One could parallel the switch with a resistor so that instead of going out, the light shifts to a lower current level if overheated. I have a few thermal switches on hand with trip points of 70, 75, and 78C. I could drop one in the mail to you if you are interested.


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## McGizmo (Sep 17, 2002)

Cool (pun intended) ideas Gents. In the mean time, Eddie would go.


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## Doug S (Sep 17, 2002)

> Originally posted by MR Bulk:
> *
> On that temperature thing, all I know, as an uneducated and ungraduated bumbling fledgling electronics experimenter, is that along with the IR thermometer readings (which I did over and over, at every conceivable angle, to verify that those were indeed the readings I was getting), I also did the foolproof caveman's temperature reading -- touching my fingers, thumbs, and various other body parts on the light (not what you think -- I squeezed my eyes tightly shut and then pressed my nose and even my lips against the heatsink), and it was never hot at all, just kinda comfortably warm.
> 
> *


<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">We educated cavemen use that technique too. My upper lip is my favorite body part for this purpose. Note, not recommended for 120 VAC and up







> Originally posted by MR Bulk:
> *
> So although certain individuals may be right about the scientific methodology or lack thereof, all I know is that this light is not too hot to use even more power -- along with the attenuate increased brightness which that would produce.
> 
> *


<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Bring on the Power!


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## BigHonu (Sep 17, 2002)

Don,

Believe me, I am not even in the same galaxy as the Aikaus. I just loved the resolve and courage they had.

Charlie,

I'm your cheering section in the background...go Charlie go, go Charlie GO, GO CHARLIE GO!!!


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## MR Bulk (Sep 17, 2002)

PsycoBob,

The aluminum seems to work fine for me so far, although with 9V that may change...

Big Honu,

Oh, puh-leeze! It's gonna take more than that to make me go nine volts! (but like in the Bartles & James wine cooler commercial, "Thank you for your support"...)


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## ElektroLumens (Sep 17, 2002)

> Originally posted by Doug S:
> * </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by ElektroLumens:
> 
> 
> ...


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## Doug S (Sep 17, 2002)

> Originally posted by ElektroLumens:
> * </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Doug S:
> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by ElektroLumens:
> 
> ...


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## **DONOTDELETE** (Sep 17, 2002)

Hey Don,

Yeah, the Eddie Aikau bravado lives strong in many of us here (you know, "Imua", and, "Geev'um", and all that) so I guess it's just a matter of time before Cell Number Six makes its inevitable appearance. Earplugs and eyewear in place...


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## Glow Bug (Sep 17, 2002)

Drum roll please


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## x-ray (Sep 17, 2002)




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## Slick (Sep 17, 2002)

> Originally posted by MR Bulk™:
> *So whatsay? Yes or No? Sound off here!*


<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You know me Charlie, I run towards the conservative side...

I would run it at the current level for a few days and get some ideas of runtime, and just use it to evaluate it's performance.

After you're comfortable that it would continue to survive (at this level) only then would I consider stepping it up. Of course, when going to the next level, I would be watching power comsumption, heat, and looking for any signs of thermal runaway.




I think you're far enough ahead of the curve to take some "baby steps" in an effort to keep this thing alive. I'd hate to see testing end early because it became a casuality.

Doug - I re-read the (ambient temps) threads and apparently am missing something...


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## darkgear.com (Sep 17, 2002)

Charlie,

I'll pay the whole $28 if it pops. How's that for a YES vote





Geev em brah!


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## MR Bulk (Sep 17, 2002)

So is that a No vote from Slick? Heh heh...


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## Doug S (Sep 17, 2002)

> Originally posted by Slick:
> *
> 
> 
> ...


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## MR Bulk (Sep 17, 2002)

And a YES vote from DarkGear! Okay, here goes...


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## Vegeta (Sep 17, 2002)

> Doug - I re-read the (ambient temps) threads and apparently am missing something...


<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I believe the confusion is in the interpretation of what was written. Doug S was not saying that ambient temperature has no effect on the ability of the heatsink to dissipate heat. Instead, he was saying it has no effect on the thermal switches ability to trip when the critical temperature is reached. If the thermal switch is set to trip when the temperature of the die reaches 135C, then that is the temperature at which it will trip regardless of whether the ambient temperature is 25C or 45C. It’s just much more likely that the die temperature will reach the preset “tripping temperature” when the ambient temperature is higher.


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## MR Bulk (Sep 17, 2002)

Well, I did it. I put in SIX AA CELLS. Five of them metered 1.58V and the sixth gave 1.56V (mebbe Eddie would go, but I am not nuts and thus deliberately avoided the temptation to use fresh Kirklands which usually meter around 1.62V+ new).

So adding up the above battery power we are about to get *9.46 volts* surging through the Fire Breathing Dragon.

Entered the Test Facility (our pitch-black windowless little laundry room), slid the pocket door shut behind me, set up the LM631 and FBD at the now pre-measured spots (yes, the two 1-meter standardized distance points are practically scored into the countertop now from the light meter and various flashlights being plunked down about a thousand times) and let fly, no focusing, no nothing, just the blasting of aquamarine-green light.

And there on its backlit black-and-green lcd display, the meter proudly exhibited the irrefutable measurement of 7830 lux. I didn't keep the light on for more than the few seconds it required for the meter to establish the peak measurement.

So no heat to speak of, but awesome bright. I also know that on this particular FBD setup the optimal focus point, like in many other focusable lights, varies depending on the distance of the target towards which the light is being shone. Our test FBD just happened to be focused for some trees 35 yards away from playing with it last night -- it actually could have produced higher numbers if focused for 39.37 inches.

But I need to catch my breath and work on some other mods right now, maybe when I feel braver I will put spent batteries in, dial in the focus for precisely one meter, and then put in absolutely brand-new 1.62V Kirkland batteries to get even higher Fire readings. Hey, how about six lithiums???!!! This is getting insane! Mua-ha-ha-ha-haaaaa....


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## MR Bulk (Sep 17, 2002)

Okay for the helluvit I went back in armed with my SureFire M4 using the stock MN60 LA and loaded with four fresh Panasonic 123s, and got this reading from one meter away:

11,240 lux

So the FBD is only 70% as bright -- damn...


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## Slick (Sep 17, 2002)

> Originally posted by Vegeta:
> * </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Doug - I re-read the (ambient temps) threads and apparently am missing something...
> *


*<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I believe the confusion is in the interpretation of what was written. Doug S was not saying that ambient temperature has no effect on the ability of the heatsink to dissipate heat. Instead, he was saying it has no effect on the thermal switches ability to trip when the critical temperature is reached. If the thermal switch is set to trip when the temperature of the die reaches 135C, then that is the temperature at which it will trip regardless of whether the ambient temperature is 25C or 45C. It’s just much more likely that the die temperature will reach the preset “tripping temperature” when the ambient temperature is higher.




*</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, yes.. Now I'm getting it. I just couldn't quite figure out all that was being said by the time the thread had grown that far..



Thanks, Vegeta.

Doug - thanks for that link. Heavy reading is OK, as I too am pushing the limits with some of my mods - although no where near as far as MrBulk is!!

MrBulk - My answer would a "cautious yes" - but once I get to a certain point in testing mods, sometimes I like to enjoy what I've done for a day or two before jumping to the next level. That way if I do blow it up, at least I have more memories



But I gotta hand it to ya, you got wavos dude!


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## McGizmo (Sep 17, 2002)

> Originally posted by MR Bulk:
> *3930 lux, hooboy! Then again my LS might be different from yours...
> 
> *


<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So Charlie,

I guess your LS is different than mine!!!!!!!!!!! your's has gone super nova and come back with stories to tell!!! I can only imagine what that beam looks like!

Eddie smiles........


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## PsycoBob[Q2] (Sep 17, 2002)

Silly question: Are these 3AA-D adapters you're using the same ones that didn't fit in a Mag?

If so, I might need to get a Garrity and some adapters.....


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## Slick (Sep 18, 2002)

> Originally posted by Doug S:
> * placing a thermal switch on the heatsink immediately below the emitter, ambient temperature does not affect the effectiveness of this protective measure provided that you are operating at a fixed power level.*


<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I would have to disagree... Ambient temperature would affect the ability of the external surfaces of the flashlight to cool. Thus, a higher ambient temperature would lead to higher internal temps..


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## Doug S (Sep 18, 2002)

Slick, reread thread carefully.



> Originally posted by Slick:
> * </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Doug S:
> placing a thermal switch on the heatsink immediately below the emitter, ambient temperature does not affect the effectiveness of this protective measure provided that you are operating at a fixed power level.*


*<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I would have to disagree... Ambient temperature would affect the ability of the external surfaces of the flashlight to cool. Thus, a higher ambient temperature would lead to higher internal temps..*</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">


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## **DONOTDELETE** (Sep 18, 2002)

Actually I think I'm right at the threshold of modding insanity -- should I stick the extra battery in it or not?

I know, I know, you guys are all gonna say, "Oh Yeah, MR Bulk™, *GO* for it!", and that is pretty cool to say when you're in the audience watching to see if the tightrope walker will fall (with no net, BTW), but hey, _*I'M*_ that tightrope walker!

So I'm thinkin', how about a little audience participation? Let's put it up to a vote, and if the Yes votes outnumber the No's, then each Yes voter pledges a dollar or two (depending upon how many Yes votes we get, divided into the cost of a new 5-watt -- about $28 shipped to Hawaii), so that everything gets much more interesting now with everyone having a tiny stake in this grand CPF Five Watt *OVER*drive Trial (CPF FWOT).

So whatsay? Yes or No? _*Sound off here!*_


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## MR Bulk (Sep 18, 2002)

Slick,

Wavos? Naw, it was easy when darkgear pledged the $28...

Hey Don, do it to yours too! Eddie's watchin' ya...

PsycoBob -- the answer is yes, except the adaptor group buy died a natural death due to apathy...


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## McGizmo (Sep 18, 2002)

Charlie,

I'm not so sure the 5W is built over spec to the extent that the 1 W seems to be. If you want, I'll pay pal you a couple of bucks either way. 

If I can judge from past experience, as would Eddie, so will you, regardless! Just be sure you have protective eye wear and maybe ear plugs??????

- Don


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## ElektroLumens (Sep 18, 2002)

I finally had some time to mount a 5 watt on a heat sink and try it out. Well, it was a bad one!



At 5 volts it slightly glimmered, than I set it up to 6 volts, and . . . nothiing!



I am positive I didn't reverse the voltage. Well, I dismounted that one, and tried another. WHOA !!!!



Unbelievable!





I mounted this one up exactly like I do the 1 watt Luxeon Stars, on a flat heat sink disc, and press it into the flashlight. I am using a 3 'D' cell flashlight, some generic thing I picked up somewhere, don't even remember who the maker is. 

I rewired the switch, pressed in the heat sink with the 5 watt cyan LS, and soldered the wires on. I slid in my modified battery pack, and then clicked it on.



Direct drive from 5 AA's, 7.64 volts. 

First I tested it with a 1" acrylic ball. Nice! Then I tried it with the collimator. Nice! A wider degree of light, spread out nicely. Oh so bright. I ended up mounting the collimator on it, as many of us have the white 5 watts with the collimators coming.

I live in an area where there are no street lights. This thing is the brightest flashlight I've ever seen, n terms of emitted light! Lights up the entire area, brightly. I like it! The cyan color is okay, I guess.

I measure 1,320 lux from one meter, but don't let that number fool you. The is the brightness of the hot spot, which is basically huge, so all the light is not being maeasured. Let's see, the hot spot was, from one meter, was oh, well, it was a lot bigger than the meter light pad, anyway.

With this battery pack, any 3 'D' cell flashlight can be used for the 5 watt.





Wayne J.
www.elektrolumens


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## McGizmo (Sep 18, 2002)

Wayne J.,

Cool! I assume you slightly elevated the collimator off of the LED? 

Regards,
Don

PS. A dud????????????? That sucks!


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## ElektroLumens (Sep 18, 2002)

> Originally posted by McGizmo:
> *Wayne J.,
> 
> Cool! I assume you slightly elevated the collimator off of the LED?
> ...


<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I did not elevate the collimator. I tried it and did notice it focused a better beam, but I wanted a wide beam on this one, and I wanted to see how it would be stock. I'll try elevating the collimator housing on the next one. Also, the 1" acrylic ball works great! Gives a good tight focused beam that really throws far. Probably not as tight as a reflector will, but really nice!

Yes, the first one was a DUD!









It's like lighting a firecracker, (hmmmm, how appropriate), and having it go fizz, no, less than fizz.





I am ordering 10 more of these cyans. I like 'em.

Wayne J.
www.elektrolumens.com


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## Brotherscrim (Sep 18, 2002)

> Originally posted by Slick:
> *...But I gotta hand it to ya, you got wavos dude!*


<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Not to be nitpicky, but rather to advance our cumulative knowledge base and in the interest of properly executed low brow spanish-based humor, I feel it is my duty to inform you that I believe the word you're looking for is "Juevos"

-Scrimmy


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## NightStorm (Sep 18, 2002)

Brotherscrim & Slick,

I'm sorry, but the word you're looking for is "Huevos", which is the Spanish word for eggs. It is also slang for the male gonads and is applied to acts of bravado.

Wayne,

I've been experimenting with my pre-production cyan 5W LS recently and I must say that I'm more than a little disappointed with the "Barbecue Grille Effect" that occurs at the point of focus with a 1.25" acrylic ball. I have had more positive results with elevating the new style collimator as McGiz suggested.

Charlie,

Nice work! I'm of the opinion, that if the phosphor coating on the white emitters doesn't negate the junction shadow in these 5W's, the reflector approach will be the way to go.

Dan


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## ElektroLumens (Sep 18, 2002)

> Originally posted by PercaDan:
> *
> Wayne,
> 
> ...


<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The grid can be reduced, determined by the distance of the ball from the emitter, just the same as adjusting the distance of the collimator from the emitter. I have a very simply designed holder for the acrylic ball, and I can adjust this distance.

There is a grid with the collimator, as you say. If you shine it at a wall, well, yes, you can see it. It is not a problem, though, when illuminating the neighborhood!





Wayne J.
www.elektrolumens.com


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## NightStorm (Sep 18, 2002)

WayneY,

I concur with your observations pertaining to the stock optics. I suppose that we all are forgetting that the Luxeon was not principally developed for our purposes. If they were, they would have been made available with reflectors and fluted lenses, in a variety of sizes and shapes. But...where would the fun be?

WayneJ,

I too have thought about using dual double plano-convex arrangement but it is not without its drawbacks.

First, the emitter would have to be positioned precisely on axis to keep from skewing the beam pattern.

Secondly, the distance between the emitter, the primary optics and the secondary optics (focal length) maybe too large for my application. Of course, this would vary with the curvature that the lenses are ground at.

Thirdly, the loss of resolution maybe unacceptable for optimal performance and the optics may also accentuate the junction pattern.

On the plus side, this arrangement can be readily made focusable, from mildly divergent to extremely convergent (Don't look into beam with remaining good eye!).

IMO, surface polished (metal; smooth, textured or multi-faceted) reflectors present the greatest gains with the least amount of mechanical complexity and the lowest overall cost. Regrettably, the reflectors that are readily available were designed for single-point omni-directional light sources (bulbs). I am quite pleased however, with Charlie's results in elevating the emitter on a pedestal to adjust for this short coming. I'm also pleased that the heat path from the pedestal to the sink plate seems to be quite active.

Charlie,

I wouldn't mind seeing some beam shots of the FBD at different width beam patterns (including the "black hole").

Dan


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## ElektroLumens (Sep 18, 2002)

PercaDan,

The reflector seems promising. The optics seem okay to me, for what I use it for. I sort of like the 1" acrylic ball (if it is positioned correctly to blend the grid.) There is a difference between 3/4" and 1". The 1" acrylic ball seems to capture more light, and the beam seams a bit tighter.

By the way, I turned on my 5 watt, and it has been on now for about 30 minutes. I started with not real fresh batteries, but still very good. I measured 1,000 lux at the start (so you see the batteries are somewhat expended), it is still at 1,000 lux. I also want to add that 1000 lux from this is way more light than from a 1 watt (if it could put out that much), as the hot spot is very large, in comparison with the 1 watt beam. It is direct drive from 5 AA's. Barely get's warm, even when the batteries were fresh. I personally think these can be run direct from 5 alkaline AA's.

Wayne J.


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## MR Bulk (Sep 18, 2002)

Wayne, only 5 AAs? (heh heh) too bad about the dud -- ask for an exchange, maybe they'll feel badly enough they'll exchange it for a WHITE one -- I know there are white ones unspoken for as pre-order buyers have been reducing their orders when faced with signing the waiver, but the extras just get sucked back into the marketing dept. inventory of Future to be re-released back into the for-sale pool later, but who knows when?

Don, if the new optics are elevated slightly, does it surpass the reflectorized beam as far as focused output? I know that either method would probably produce close Lumen outputs if measured inside an "integrating sphere" or similar, I was just wondering about spot beams.

Thanks Dan, I'm hoping the whites will have smoother beams due to the phosphor coat, however Lumileds has gotten the process down (I saw this on the high dome) where the application is very thin and precise, thus indeed producing that Caesar'sPizzaCrazyBread appearance in the middle.

dat2zipWayne, interesting and insightful observations on the collimators. I kinda like the reflector now anyway, and like the *other* Wayne says, focus adjustability will suit a wider range of users than one set style.

Dan, I'll work on adjusted-beam pics when I get a little quiet (and dark) time...


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## McGizmo (Sep 18, 2002)

Charlie,

Slightly raising the optics improves the evenness of light dispersion but the beam angle is very wide. I suspect that you are getting a significantly narrower beam spot with the reflector. Frankly, to the best of my knowledge, the optics were designed for the 1 W Luxeons and I think they suck for the 5W. I know I'm only Don but I really tried to be Frank there. 

All I can say regarding the 5W is when you elevate the collimator or an acrylic ball, look at the emitter from the side, if you can and see how much light is blasting out sideways. If this light doesn't get out of the flashlight, photons are wasted and you might be adding to to the thermal build up??!?


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## MR Bulk (Sep 18, 2002)

Don, Great points all, no point in creating wasted light. As the infamous Frito Bandito was fond of saying, _*"Westid lie? We dawn NEE' naw steenkin' westid lie!"*_ Reflectors it is!


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## NightStorm (Sep 19, 2002)

Wayne,

I'm afraid that our applications differ, mine requires the illumination of a surface with a focused beam. I can live with the concentric circles that an elevated new style collimator presents, but the small, intense grid of a focused acrylic ball is not acceptable. Nor is the "Klingon Spine" of a old style collimator positioned directly on the emitter.

McGiz,

I like the work that you have been doing with relectors, also.

Dan


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## dat2zip (Sep 19, 2002)

The more I use the Luxeon optics the less I'm *LESS* impressed with them.

It seems (IMHO) that much of the side light emitted is wasted. The optics seems to be a ball and parabolic optics combined giving two distint patterns. An image of the die as casted by the ball portion and a circular beam as generated from the parabolic portion.

Centering and distance of the optics is crucial to aligning the two images to overlap uniformly. The beam pattern of the ARC LS2 is a good example of careful alignment and I think the the standard ARC LS has the same careful optic alignment.

All the minimags I've assembled I can see the two beams and the circle spot portion is usually smaller and on one side or the other of the image of the die. For the gooped white 1W, you get two cirles instead of a rectangle and circle so the beam is more attractive without any alignment.

For the reflectors based designs, the light is re-combined and as such doesn't project the point source or LED die in this case. It's my opinion that a reflector design is more attractive, since it can be made adjustable from a wide beam to a narrow beam and would make the flashlight more versatile having a usage in short distance needing wide beam and far distance requiring a tight beam.

One drawback with a reflector is that more of the side emitted green is added to the color balance offsetting the beam color towards green than if one used the standard optics.

WayneY


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## ElektroLumens (Sep 19, 2002)

> Originally posted by PercaDan:
> *Wayne,
> 
> I'm afraid that our applications differ, mine requires the illumination of a surface with a focused beam. I can live with the concentric circles that an elevated new style collimator presents, but the small, intense grid of a focused acrylic ball is not acceptable. Nor is the "Klingon Spine" of a old style collimator positioned directly on the emitter.
> ...


<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Dan,

Yeah, I mainly use the flashlight for walks at night. So a grid or other imperfections in the beam never really bother me too much. I can understand that, if you want a perfect beam, that you would be bothered or disapointed.

This topic of focusing light is a real science all in itself. 

I am wondering about the dual lens scheme I have tried in the past? I will have to see if there is any improvement in beam quality, using a two lens scheme. Of course, there is a bit more loss of light using 2 lenses.

I also have a side beam emitting 5 watt, which I intend to use with a reflector. I will probably use some sort of elevating post as MrBulk has. I might do this with a 3 'D' cell Mag Light. Hmm, how about a 5 'D' cell?

I wanted to use the Lumileds optics, as so many who have ordered the 5 watt have also ordered optics. So I wanted to know how they work. For my use, it is fine. If you want a perfectly even projected beam, they may not be the best choise. However, what is the best choice? How can we project a perfect beam? Also, the 'perfect' beam could also be subjective. To one, the perfect beam is a very tight focused beam, which projects far. To another, a wide area beam pattern is best. We may want an adjustable beam, and compromise at the different settings, to gain the adjustability.

Wayne J.
www.elektrolumens.com


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## ElektroLumens (Sep 19, 2002)

> Originally posted by MR Bulk:
> [QB]Wayne, only 5 AAs? (heh heh) too bad about the dud -- ask for an exchange, maybe they'll feel badly enough they'll exchange it for a WHITE one -- I know there are white ones unspoken for as pre-order buyers have been reducing their orders when faced with signing the waiver, but the extras just get sucked back into the marketing dept. inventory of Future to be re-released back into the for-sale pool later, but who knows when?
> 
> QB]


<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Okay, okay, I did it!




I put 6 AA's in the flashlight, direct drive. After trying 5 AA's for a while, and the flashlight not even getting noticably warm, I decided to go for 6 AA's at 9 volts! From one meter, I measure 1,650 lux. That's at a wider degree beam pattern, so this sucker is really putting out some lumens! Took it outside, and it lights up the entire area in a 'green' flood of light. After leaving it on for a few minutes, I still do not feel much heat being generated.





Wayne J.
www.elektrolumens.com


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## MR Bulk (Sep 20, 2002)

Cool, Wayne -- I nominate you to be the one to try SEVEN AAs...

Actually I'm thinking the reason we are getting away with six cells is because they are AA cells, I would imagine a lesser number of D or even C cells might give the same results...


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## Nerd (Sep 20, 2002)

And with the fact that they are alkaline cells... so not much Amps can get out of em...


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## ElektroLumens (Sep 20, 2002)

> Originally posted by MR Bulk:
> *Cool, Wayne -- I nominate you to be the one to try SEVEN AAs...
> 
> Actually I'm thinking the reason we are getting away with six cells is because they are AA cells, I would imagine a lesser number of D or even C cells might give the same results...*


<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I put in 6 fresh AA's, and tried the light. I went out for a walk. Hmm, gets very warm, so I just use it intermitently. I didn't realize the other batteries were not very strong. With 6 AA's, wow, it really lights up the entire area, but the light gets a bit too warm. I think possibly 5 very fresh alkaline Energizers might be the limit.

I really need to do a little bit more analizing of what is actually going on. I'd like to check the voltage under load, and also check the current.

There is a lot of internal resistance with alkaline AA's. It will be interesting to see what 5 'C' cells and 5 'D' cells do.

Seven AA's? Uh, probably not, unless you cool the thing with liquid nitrogen!





Wayne J.
www.elektrolumens.com


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## PsycoBob[Q2] (Sep 20, 2002)

If I still had one of my nice copper waterblocks from when I had watercooled CPU's.....

I ordered a pair of Cyan 5w's today.



More power.


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## MR Bulk (Sep 20, 2002)

Wayne, interesting results. I would think three 123s is too much then (hoo!)?

Bob, welcome to five-watt world.


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## PsycoBob[Q2] (Sep 20, 2002)

Maybe I'll try this....

I have a 3d mag with a 5d bulb- and 3 3v Lithium D-cells cannabalized out of something else. 3 of those will likely pop that poor LED (4 can supply enough juice to start the dune-buggy... if I don't crank for too long.) so I'll likely try to use 2 Lithium, and 1 Alkaline. Sound about right?

Now on to mkae a pedistal-style holder for the mak-5w conversion, and one for the LX... not to mention the reflector. 

Uh, silly question: CR-2's are just slightly bigger than AA batts. If the Gerrity D-cell has a looser compartment than a Mag, might a Garrity AA be big enough to use 3-4 CR2's? Whoever gets to Wal-Mart first wins.


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## **DONOTDELETE** (Sep 21, 2002)

Won't need pedestal for LX -- interesting theory regarding if a maker's "D" lights are wider inside, then so should its "AA" lights...?

I'll check it out myself one of these days -- depends on length of the CR-2 and how many would fit in the space of 2 AAs...

Okay, I'm going home for my "lunch break" (at 0230 hours in the morning) now, will check e-mail while I'm there...


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## PsycoBob[Q2] (Sep 21, 2002)

It's real close to 2 CR2 in the space of 1 AA.

By CR2 I mean the photo batts that are snmaller than the 123's.


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## MR Bulk (Sep 21, 2002)

I am thinking you are real close to being onto something here -- for the Legend LX. Except I can't figger out how to get 7.5V into or out of it.

I need to see what the current draw would be with smaller 3V lithiums (three) in the LX vs. 2 x 123s...I am hoping the smaller CR2 would have additional internal resistance over the larger 123s...


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## Glow Bug (Sep 21, 2002)

What about using the Energizer 6AA properly heatsinked??? 6 rechargeables would be 7.2 volts or Alkalines using fewer cells might could be utilized???


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## ElektroLumens (Sep 21, 2002)

> Originally posted by MR Bulk:
> *I am thinking you are real close to being onto something here -- for the Legend LX. Except I can't figger out how to get 7.5V into or out of it.
> 
> I need to see what the current draw would be with smaller 3V lithiums (three) in the LX vs. 2 x 123s...I am hoping the smaller CR2 would have additional internal resistance over the larger 123s...*


<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If you could get one a WayneY (dat2zip) voltage step up regulator, and put it into a pill, that would work. I have a Legend LX, and was working on a direct drive mod, and screwed it up, so I had to break out the plastic bulb holder. Basically it is of the same type of design as the Legend 3AA is, so a pill work work well in it. That would be the best way to put a 5 watt in the Legend LX, I think. Or have Dan the machinest turn you a longer barrel, and put in about 3 or 4 ohms resistance. Isn't there a Sure fire that uses 3 Lithium 123 batteries?

Wayne J.
www.elektrolumens.com

(P.S. When I make that many typos and errors, you know I should not be making posts, but hitting the sack!)


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## MR Bulk (Sep 21, 2002)

Wayne,

Yeah but, 3x123s would surely be putting out a lot more current than 6xAAs. Wonder if it would be safe.

You see, I know dat2zip can and probably is right now making boards for the 5W, but I am wondering if he is too swamped with that plus his MadMax's and BadBoys to be able to make anything for me, especially in quantity if a mod becomes popular and then suddenly everybody wants one...knowhutImean?


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## MR Bulk (Sep 22, 2002)

sorry everyone, just want to see if this thing can hit a hundred...


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## MR Bulk (Sep 22, 2002)

I mean, since there's no way I'd ever catch up to Darrell or Saaby...


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## MR Bulk (Sep 22, 2002)

...especially when I am spreading myself out over _two_ profiles...


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## ElektroLumens (Sep 22, 2002)

> Originally posted by MR Bulk:
> *Wayne,
> 
> Yeah but, 3x123s would surely be putting out a lot more current than 6xAAs. Wonder if it would be safe.
> ...


<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">He might make them available. Two Lithium 123's and a step up regulator. Then we can also have a smaller 'Terrain Zorcher'. Hey I like that, "Zorch".

Wayne J.


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## MR Bulk (Sep 22, 2002)

HAY Wayne, post #100!!!

Yeah, we'll see. Have to get our hands on the Whites though, we've been "green" long enough...


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## PsycoBob[Q2] (Sep 22, 2002)

I'm tempted to get a 6-cell DB, and plug in the 5w, but I'd have to order one online (local Wal-Mart dosn't have them).

6-cell, direct-drive NiMH. Either that, or find a 2x4AA holder, and make me a ghetto-pack to fit in my 3-d Mag.


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## ElektroLumens (Sep 23, 2002)

> Originally posted by MR Bulk:
> *HAY Wayne, post #100!!!
> 
> Yeah, we'll see. Have to get our hands on the Whites though, we've been "green" long enough...*


<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">We'll be seeing green for a while.




If we're going to burn up a 5 watt, might as well be a cyan (green) one. 

You ought to see the strange heat sink I'm building right now! Four 4" plates. . . Well, I'll post a pic of this strange thing when it's done. I'll mount a 5 watt on it, and see how much she'll take.

I'm wondering what my neighbors think of this strange green light going down the road each night? 

Wayne J.
www.elektrolumens.com


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## PsycoBob[Q2] (Sep 23, 2002)

MrBulk- Goofy question about your Garrity D-cell.
Much as I like my 3d Mag, I can't remove the switch assembly to mod it. Does your Garrity have an easily- removable switch? (I'd prefer t avoid buying one if it doesn't- need a car...)


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## MR Bulk (Sep 24, 2002)

Yes, you will need a pry tool to break the generous amounts of flexible yellow adhesive, as well as a Dremel cutting wheel to take off certain sections of the switch assembly, although a good quality finetooth saw may work also...

If you stay with the Mag, how will you power it?


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## MR Bulk (Sep 24, 2002)

Middle of night, nothing to do, so I decided the Fire Breathing Dragon has dallied long enough. Fine tuned the head for optimum focus at about three feet, then in went six brand new Kirklands (at about 1.63V each we are running damn near 10V here folks):






9,420 lux at one meter. I obviously did not risk testing for runtimes...

*Note: Beamshot was taken with SureFire M4 *using a 500-Lumen N62 HOLA.*

Okay, this baby's maxed out and fully earned her Eddie Aikau Lifetime Achievement Award -- time to sell her (as soon as I get my hands on a 5W white, that is)...


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## across the pond (Sep 24, 2002)

>as soon as I can get my hands on a 5W white

I started a thread on this subject after speaking to someone from future electronics in england...

http://www.candlepowerforums.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=14;t=000538


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## ElektroLumens (Sep 24, 2002)

> Originally posted by MR Bulk:
> *Middle of night, nothing to do, so I decided the Fire Breathing Dragon has dallied long enough. Fine tuned the head for optimum focus at about three feet, then in went six brand new Kirklands (at about 1.63V each we are running damn near 10V here folks):
> *


<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Hey MrBulk,

I put in 6 fresh AA alkaline Energizer's in my mod using the 3 D cell flashlight and the 6 AA holder I have, using the Lumileds newer optics. I removed the plastic lens so the head will act more like a heat sink, having both sides exposed to the air. I have to say it lights up the entire area. The meter read only 1890 lux, somewhere around there, as this is a wide beam. It got very warm after about 5 minutes of runtime, so I would shut it off every now and then so it could cool. Not enough heat sink to run at this level, so I set it back to 5 AA's direct drive, and it is fine. Still awesome bright, but the lux is in the 1,500's to 1,600's.

I have the side emitter cyan in a (4 'D' cell converted to a 5 'C' cell) Mag Lite. At tight focus, I get around 6950 lux, (or was the 6590). On par and better than most halogen flashlights.

Thanks for sharing your results. It encouraged me to do some testing too. This will benefit everyone who gets a 5 watt Luxeon Star.

Wayne J.
www.elektrolumens.com


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## McGizmo (Sep 24, 2002)

Good job Charlie! Eddie's proud! 

- Don


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## dat2zip (Sep 24, 2002)

Cool stuff.

I really like the cyan color. Not all the cyans, but, the ones that are cool blue are a very nice color.

So, what does it look like from the receiving end, say, at 10 feet or 50 feet away. I'm always worried shining my greenie towards other people whether accidental or not.

Wayne


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## MR Bulk (Sep 24, 2002)

From the receiving end? Hmmm, never screwed up my courage far enough to try photographing this...


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## ElektroLumens (Sep 24, 2002)

> Originally posted by dat2zip:
> *Cool stuff.
> 
> I really like the cyan color. Not all the cyans, but, the ones that are cool blue are a very nice color.
> ...


<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Heh heh, it's not a good 'ting to be on the receiving end of a 5 watt!

I was walking down the road at night with a 1 watt, and my son comes by jogging. Says I'm gunna get beat up sometime, shining this thing in people's eyes. He wants me to be a shield on it so it doesn't shine up into oncomer's eyes. I told him that would take all the fun out of it.

I'm thinking for a bike light application, a shield of some sort might be wise. I might be making a post about a traffic citation for too bright of a light, a green light!

The 5 watt? Uh, nobody can see anything but this green light coming at them. Not a pleasant thing!





Wayne J.
www.elektrolumens.com


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## dat2zip (Sep 24, 2002)

Let me just say this. I freekin scared myself twice the first night I went a took a walk with my greenie. Part of the park I walk at has a elemetary school at one end. I was heading across the school field toward the buildings and mostly keeping the light facing towards the ground when I went and starting lighting up the school buildings.

Lo and behold, I literally sh** in my pants seeing this bright green light shining right at me. It was sooo, bright, green and well, I was rather shocked. I just stood there frozen for a second. Then it finally sank in. Dang, that's me shining the green light. DOH.

I had hit a position on one of the school windows and the light came right back. Still I was several hundred yards mind you and I was not expecting that.

Since I nearly SH** in my pants, I can't imagine what someone who is not expecting and gets hit accidentally as I take a normal night walk.

This is of course the greenie with the standard optics and the 20 degree beam.

I can't image what a focused beam reflector based cyan will do.


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## McGizmo (Sep 24, 2002)

> Originally posted by dat2zip:
> *..................................
> 
> I can't image what a focused beam reflector based cyan will do.*


<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well Wayne, let us know your findings.


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## MR Bulk (Sep 24, 2002)

Imagine what a focused _WHITE_ 5-watt beam will be like...YeeHaw!


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## ElektroLumens (Sep 24, 2002)

> Originally posted by dat2zip:
> [QB]Let me just say this. I freekin scared myself twice the first night I went a took a walk with my greenie. Part of the park I walk at has a elemetary school at one end. I was heading across the school field toward the buildings and mostly keeping the light facing towards the ground when I went and starting lighting up the school buildings.
> 
> QB]


<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Where I live there are no street lights. It can be really dark. The 5 watt lights up a huge area, easily 100 yards. My wife says she can tell where I am as I walk away, as everything around is lit up green.



On this flashlight is also the 20 degree optics. I also have a 4 D cell Mag retro fitted with 5 C cells, and a 5 watt cyan side emitter. It really projects the beam. This light is really overkill (especially for oncomers) for a walk, but it is really fun to use it. Maybe the larger 4 D flashlight is necessary for self protection from people who get mad at us for shining it in their eyes (accidentally, of course).





Wayne J.
www.elektrolumens.com


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## ElektroLumens (Sep 24, 2002)

> Originally posted by MR Bulk:
> *Imagine what a focused WHITE 5-watt beam will be like...YeeHaw!*


<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Now Charlie, of course you'd never shine the 5 watt in a persons face while on duty, would you?

Actually, wouldn't it come in handy? People see this super bright light coming at them from the patrol car? I suppose you cannot use green, huh?

Wayne J.


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## MR Bulk (Sep 24, 2002)

Shine it in their faces while working? That's a heck of an idea..


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## PsycoBob[Q2] (Sep 25, 2002)

MR Bulk, I plan on using a 6AA holder from ElektroLumens, personally modded to act as a 3D-size battery. Now that I got the Mag-switch out, I can even plug a custom switch/heatsink/circuitry assembly in there.

The switch-removal is stupidly simple. Remove batteries, pinch the little rubber cover over the switch off, and insert a small hex-driver into the center of the switch. Unscrew the pin that fits into the metal body (negative contact, incedentally) and slide the assy out thru the back end of the light. Pill-bottles come in handy for those small parts.


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## ElektroLumens (Sep 25, 2002)

> Originally posted by PsycoBob[Q2]:
> *MR Bulk, I plan on using a 6AA holder from ElektroLumens, personally modded to act as a 3D-size battery. Now that I got the Mag-switch out, I can even plug a custom switch/heatsink/circuitry assembly in there.
> 
> The switch-removal is stupidly simple. Remove batteries, pinch the little rubber cover over the switch off, and insert a small hex-driver into the center of the switch. Unscrew the pin that fits into the metal body (negative contact, incedentally) and slide the assy out thru the back end of the light. Pill-bottles come in handy for those small parts.
> ...


<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I never was able to get that dumb switch out. I guess if all else fails, read directions?

I made the 6 AA battery holder to be the exact length of the 3 D cells. Just slides right in, no mods to compartment.

The inside of the switch assembly would be a perfect place for a regulator, if you use one.

If others are interested in this 6AA battery pack, I could order more. 

Wayne J.
www.elektrolumens.com


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## Glow Bug (Sep 25, 2002)

I'll take one....Please


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## evan9162 (Sep 25, 2002)

> I put in 6 fresh AA's, and tried the light. I went out for a walk. Hmm, gets very warm, so I just use it intermitently. I didn't realize the other batteries were not very strong. With 6 AA's, wow, it really lights up the entire area, but the light gets a bit too warm. I think possibly 5 very fresh alkaline Energizers might be the limit.
> 
> I really need to do a little bit more analizing of what is actually going on. I'd like to check the voltage under load, and also check the current.
> ...


<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Wayne,
Have you checked what current you're pushing with 5 and 6 cells?

-Darin


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## PsycoBob[Q2] (Sep 25, 2002)

Wayne J, that's part of the reason for wanting to get it out- Most current-regs don't work well if you stick a switch between it and the load, and fitting a non-SMT reg inside the neck of a mag...

As for exactly how to remove it, a search of CPF set me straight. Need a small inch hex-tool. Exact size is mentioned in the thread that tells how. If I had so much as a webcam, I'd make a tutorial.


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## PsycoBob[Q2] (Sep 25, 2002)

Silly question time, again...

MR Bulk & ElektroLumens- after sending in the invoice to Future for yer 5-watters, did you get a confirmation, or anything? How long did it take for the order to arrive? How did it come(UPS/FEDEX/USPS)?


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## MR Bulk (Sep 25, 2002)

Mine was UPS Blue, took about 2-3 days. Noreceipt or confirmation until after you get it. I had to ask for an "electronic receipt" via e-mail from my rep...

They're the only game in town, so they can unintentionally miss details since they're so busy...


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## PsycoBob[Q2] (Sep 27, 2002)

Well, I emailed the invoice on the 20th, so hopefully they'll be arriving soon. Just to check, the format used for my invoice was

Part number: Quantity
LXHL-PE02 2

Payment method: Credit Card
XXXX-XXXX-XXXX-XXXX
exp:Feb04 MasterCard
EXACT NAME ON CARD

Ship to:
>>insert address here<<

Phone: >>Duh<<

Is this similar to yours? I honestly don't know if they would call/email me back if I left something off, or stick that on the bottom of the 'to-do' list. 

Yes, I am nervous about getting my wonderful new 5-watters.... I already have the welding-helmet unburied.


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## MR Bulk (Sep 27, 2002)

I'd call your rep and just get a verbal confirmation -- or e-mail him/her.


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