# Battery explosion with Fenix P1D



## SoSa (Jul 9, 2007)

Yesterday during testing runtime my P1D went "Big Bang".

It was a really big explosion, the treading was not able to withstand internal pressure and the P1D went off, one piece banging my head, rocketing off into a concrete wall leaving marks both on my head and on wall.

Surprisingly the explosion left little impact on the P1D itself, it still works as advertised. The thread is a little loose, but with some tape applied to it works; the bezel has been dented a little bit, and the battery holder is also off a bit.
The often criticized HA was scratched a bit, but surprisingly not much considering all things.

Here are a few pictures:

http://img527.imageshack.us/img527/614/fenix6om5.jpg




Battery

http://img452.imageshack.us/img452/4115/fenix1xn0.jpg
Front

http://img296.imageshack.us/img296/3230/fenix5gd0.jpg
Battery holder

Sorry I have no pictures of my head. 

_Over sized images replaced with links._


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## Daniel_sk (Jul 9, 2007)

*Re: Fenix P1D after battery explosion*

:sigh: What brand was the CR123 battery?


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## SoSa (Jul 9, 2007)

*Re: Fenix P1D after battery explosion*



Daniel_sk said:


> :sigh: What brand was the CR123 battery?



It was was a cheap chinese with a "PW Powerstation" label on it. 
It is on sale in Europe by several vendors through the Internet.


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## cliff (Jul 9, 2007)

*Re: Fenix P1D after battery explosion*

I can understand how a light with two batteries might explode, but how does this happen with a single battery light?


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## fluke (Jul 9, 2007)

*Re: Fenix P1D after battery explosion*

Hmm.
I'm only using Panasonics and known brands from now on.


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## Daniel_sk (Jul 9, 2007)

*Re: Fenix P1D after battery explosion*



SoSa said:


> It was was a cheap chinese with a "PW Powerstation" label on it.
> It is on sale in Europe by several vendors through the Internet.


 
I would stay away from these cheap batteries. You can get quality batteries from US at reasonable prices.
I got my energizers from fenix-store for $1.75/battery including shipping. Not the cheapest, but compared to EU prices (and the dollar is weak), it's pretty cheap.

How much did you pay for these chinese batteries?


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## fluke (Jul 9, 2007)

*Re: Fenix P1D after battery explosion*

I just got 12 Panasonics from Hong Kong For $18.99 Shipped and Insured.


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## fluke (Jul 9, 2007)

*Re: Fenix P1D after battery explosion*

I have been asked where I got the Panasonic CR123A's from.

I have No connection with this site.

http://stores.ebay.co.uk/HKAsiaMall


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## Daniel_sk (Jul 9, 2007)

*Re: Fenix P1D after battery explosion*

Thanks fluke, I'll check that store.

Well, SoSa I am glad nothing that bad happened and you are OK. 
It's another reason for me to buy only known brands of batteries (especially in 2 cell flashlights).


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## Long John (Jul 9, 2007)

*Re: Fenix P1D after battery explosion*

Sorry to hear this SoSa

Depending on the circumstances, such a disaster can happen with all brands of batteries.
Certainly the building quality of more costly batts. are better, but depending on the elapsed time, temperature and discharging load (over discharging), it can happen.

Fortunately it's rare, but it can be.

How long did it last, until it happens and at which brightness-setting was the light (if it is not the 1-stage LuxIII version)?

Best regards

____
Tom


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## Kilovolt (Jul 9, 2007)

*Re: Fenix P1D after battery explosion*

Sosa, you are a really lucky fellow, you did not even lose your Fenix (nor your head). Congratulations !!!

:twothumbs


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## bombelman (Jul 9, 2007)

*Re: Fenix P1D after battery explosion*

DUDEEEE BE VERY CAREFUL WITH THE LITHIUM.
*VERY TOXIC*


Please read this thread and it's cautions/warnings/procedures:
http://candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=78843

Wish you the best.


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## Flying Turtle (Jul 9, 2007)

*Re: Fenix P1D after battery explosion*

Yikes! Glad you are alright. Was the light hot from the runtime testing? I bet you won't be doing those tests again soon.

Geoff


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## SoSa (Jul 9, 2007)

*Re: Fenix P1D after battery explosion*

The Battery is still on sale and the price is Euro 1,39 which is USD 1.89. I would not call that cheap.(At least not in the US)

You know, the most interesting thing is it happened without warning. The battery was in the flashlight for a couple of months now. I did not use this light much (short nights, and my latest purchase is a Lumapower). Yesterday night I took the P1D for a walk and was a bit shocked that the battery is almost dead. Returning home i put in on a desk and switched on to see how much juice was left in it. After a few minutes the light started flickering. It was not hot at all.

I leaned over it to see what is going on, and this was when he battery exploded. The light jumped off the desk, and piece of it hit my head. Interestingly the battery was left on the desk hissing and sparkling. Actually it burnt a hole into the tablecloth and left a mark in the wood itself.


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## DM51 (Jul 9, 2007)

*Re: Fenix P1D after battery explosion*

Ouch - but by the sound of it, it could have been a great deal worse. It will serve as another compelling reason not to buy El Cheapo junk cells. A warning needs to be circulated about these particular ones.

How long into the run-time test was it? And did you leave the light tailstanding while it was running, or were you holding it? Did you notice anything unusual just before it blew?

I think this thread probably belongs in the "Flashlight Electronics - Batteries Included" forum.

Edit: you have just answered my questions while I was writing my post - thanks.


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## Long John (Jul 9, 2007)

*Re: Fenix P1D after battery explosion*

Thanks for clearing this up. So the battery was overdischarged and started venting.

It's absolutely important to determine the usage of these cells by ascertainment a reduced output and not completly draining the batts.

Best regards

____
Tom


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## SoSa (Jul 9, 2007)

*Re: Fenix P1D after battery explosion*

I must admit, the cause could have been overdischarge due to faulty battery. ( I did not think it is empty)

It is a P1D CE and was on primary.


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## zipplet (Jul 9, 2007)

*Re: Fenix P1D after battery explosion*

Thanks for the warning, I have run down cells very low in my P1D-CE before, to the point where the light flickered a little, although the cells were still fine when I dumped them. Now I will dispose of them when they dim and not use them deliberately after that.

I'm using some mitsubishi "black diamond" cells that I got on ebay quite cheaply right now. Only observation is the light likes to get very warm right at the end of the discharge curve before it suddenly gets very dim.


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## bombelman (Jul 9, 2007)

*Re: Fenix P1D after battery explosion*

Very important: READ: http://candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=124776

And this quoted from: http://candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=114455



NewBie said:


> IMHO, there are quite a few rather ignorant folks who like to pretend to be experts. If you really don't know what you are talking about, you shouldn't say something is safe when it truely is not. I'm not an expert either, but I do have the skills to read...
> 
> Duracell 123A nasties:
> Thermal degradation may produce hazardous fumes
> ...


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## chesterqw (Jul 9, 2007)

*Re: Fenix P1D after battery explosion*

cheap unknown batteries are alot more likely to explode.

for they have LOUSY QC

and the process in making them is not "perfect"

their safety features may not work at all.


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## SoSa (Jul 9, 2007)

*Re: Fenix P1D after battery explosion*



DM51 said:


> Ouch - but by the sound of it, it could have been a great deal worse. It will serve as another compelling reason not to buy El Cheapo junk cells. A warning needs to be circulated about these particular ones.
> 
> How long into the run-time test was it? And did you leave the light tailstanding while it was running, or were you holding it? Did you notice anything unusual just before it blew?
> 
> I think this thread probably belongs in the "Flashlight Electronics - Batteries Included" forum.



During the walk I used it on primary for less than an hour. As I mentioned formerly i used it very little (ten minutes, or so). After returning home i left it resting for an hour and wanted to see how much juice was left in it. The runtime of P1D on primary is more than two hours.

I put it on a desk tailstanding to se how much energy these particular batteries are holding. Before the explosion nothing unusual happened. It did not get warm or anything. Just a few second before the explosion the flickering I mentioned formerly.


I put this thread into this section intentionally to show how resilient modern led flashlight are, but if you think it should belong to another section it is fine, but I do not know how to transfer.


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## paulr (Jul 9, 2007)

*Re: Fenix P1D after battery explosion*

Wow, thanks for the thread and photos. I sure have my suspicions about whether the expensive brands of batteries are really any different from the cheap ones except for the higher price tag making some executives rich. I certainly notice a chemical smell coming from expensive lithium cells just like from cheap ones. I happen to have bought a few 123 lights recently but overall I think AA lights continue to make a lot more sense. E.g. the Fenix L1D CE is a little smaller in diameter and just 15mm or so longer than the P2D, has exactly the same features and about the same performance, but has close to zero operating cost (NiMH AA cell) and I've never heard of a NiMH AA exploding in a light.


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## carrot (Jul 9, 2007)

*Re: Fenix P1D after battery explosion*

This is bad. This would be the first single-cell thermal runaway we have seen on CPF. Thankfully it was not a brand name cell or we would really be in a pickle, though one should exercise caution no matter the brand.

SoSa, if you have touched any of the residue or inhaled any of the fumes, go to your doctor IMMEDIATELY. Tell him that you believe you may have been exposed to Hydrogen Fluoride. HF is a dangerous acid that goes right through your skin and attaches to the calcium in your bones. The PDF Bombelman links to should probably also be printed out and given to your doctor if you have been exposed to any of the battery's fumes or residue.


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## wintermute (Jul 9, 2007)

*Re: Fenix P1D after battery explosion*



carrot said:


> This is bad. This would be the first single-cell thermal runaway we have seen on CPF. Thankfully it was not a brand name cell or we would really be in a pickle, though one should exercise caution no matter the brand.
> 
> SoSa, if you have touched any of the residue or inhaled any of the fumes, go to your doctor IMMEDIATELY. Tell him that you believe you may have been exposed to Hydrogen Fluoride. HF is a dangerous acid that goes right through your skin and attaches to the calcium in your bones. The PDF Bombelman links to should probably also be printed out and given to your doctor if you have been exposed to any of the battery's fumes or residue.


Great advice as always from the orange one...I think I shall name him "Yoda carrot"


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## abvidledUK (Jul 9, 2007)

*Re: Fenix P1D after battery explosion*



SoSa said:


> The Battery is still on sale and the price is Euro 1,39 which is USD 1.89. I would not call that cheap.(At least not in the US)
> 
> You know, the most interesting thing is it happened without warning. The battery was in the flashlight for a couple of months now. I did not use this light much (short nights, and my latest purchase is a Lumapower). Yesterday night I took the P1D for a walk and was a bit shocked that the battery is almost dead. Returning home i put in on a desk and switched on to see how much juice was left in it. After a few minutes the light started flickering. It was not hot at all.
> 
> I leaned over it to see what is going on, and this was when he battery exploded. The light jumped off the desk, and piece of it hit my head. Interestingly the battery was left on the desk hissing and sparkling. Actually it burnt a hole into the tablecloth and left a mark in the wood itself.



Not from these was it ?

http://translate.google.com/transla...owerstation+cr123&num=100&hl=en&safe=off&sa=G

http://translate.google.com/transla...owerstation+cr123&num=100&hl=en&safe=off&sa=G


Don't appear to be available in UK, apart from 

http://www.qualityflashlights.co.uk/termekekmain.php?csoportid=7

As inc CR123's

I understand this can happen with just one CR123, after mechanical shock, if dropped.

BTW, are 3 threads on this really necessary ?


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## SoSa (Jul 9, 2007)

*Re: Fenix P1D after battery explosion*



carrot said:


> This is bad. This would be the first single-cell thermal runaway we have seen on CPF. Thankfully it was not a brand name cell or we would really be in a pickle, though one should exercise caution no matter the brand.
> 
> SoSa, if you have touched any of the residue or inhaled any of the fumes, go to your doctor IMMEDIATELY. Tell him that you believe you may have been exposed to Hydrogen Fluoride. HF is a dangerous acid that goes right through your skin and attaches to the calcium in your bones. The PDF Bombelman links to should probably also be printed out and given to your doctor if you have been exposed to any of the battery's fumes or residue.



Carrot,

Thank you, but it is summer here and all the windows were open for good ventilation. I did not touch any of the residue without protection. 

Nevertheless, thanks a lot!


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## SoSa (Jul 9, 2007)

*Re: Fenix P1D after battery explosion*



abvidledUK said:


> Not from these was it ?
> 
> http://translate.google.com/transla...owerstation+cr123&num=100&hl=en&safe=off&sa=G
> 
> ...




Yes, those are the sources. I did not want to name them, but they are selling at least in the U.K., Germany, Austria, France and Hungary.


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## cliff (Jul 9, 2007)

*Re: Fenix P1D after battery explosion*



carrot said:


> This is bad. This would be the first single-cell thermal runaway we have seen on CPF. Thankfully it was not a brand name cell or we would really be in a pickle, though one should exercise caution no matter the brand.


 
I'm still trying to figure out how this type of thing can happen with a single cell. If it is even remotely possible, it could logically happen with any brand of battery. 

Also, how do you exercise caution with a single-cell light? Other than holding the light with welding gloves I'm stumped.


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## SilverFox (Jul 9, 2007)

*Re: Fenix P1D after battery explosion*

Hello SoSa,

Glad to hear that you are OK.

I am not sure what happened, but a wild guess is that the cell shorted out internally causing it to rapidly vent.

Tom


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## WildChild (Jul 9, 2007)

*Re: Fenix P1D after battery explosion*



cliff said:


> I'm still trying to figure out how this type of thing can happen with a single cell. If it is even remotely possible, it could logically happen with any brand of battery.
> 
> Also, how do you exercise caution with a single-cell light? Other than holding the light with welding gloves I'm stumped.



Internal short, small hot spot then thermal runaway?

Can an internal short happen when discharging?

I think most Li-Ion laptop battery packs explosions were caused by internal shorts. But was it during discharge or during charge?


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## carrot (Jul 9, 2007)

*Re: Fenix P1D after battery explosion*



cliff said:


> Also, how do you exercise caution with a single-cell light? Other than holding the light with welding gloves I'm stumped.



I meant, to exercise caution when handling and storing lithium batteries. Keeping them cool and dry, for starters, may help.


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## fluke (Jul 9, 2007)

*Re: Fenix P1D after battery explosion*

Is this likely with any Lithium type cell ???

AA
AAA
And just about any other ???


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## elgarak (Jul 9, 2007)

*Re: Fenix P1D after battery explosion*



cliff said:


> I'm still trying to figure out how this type of thing can happen with a single cell. If it is even remotely possible, it could logically happen with any brand of battery.
> 
> Also, how do you exercise caution with a single-cell light? Other than holding the light with welding gloves I'm stumped.


One thing is getting more and more clear: It's a bad idea to try to squeeze the last bit of energy out of a CR123A.


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## Thujone (Jul 9, 2007)

*Re: Fenix P1D after battery explosion*



Daniel_sk said:


> the dollar is weak



Ah come on, please dont tease us about that...:mecry:


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## GarageBoy (Jul 9, 2007)

*Re: Fenix P1D after battery explosion*



carrot said:


> This is bad. This would be the first single-cell thermal runaway we have seen on CPF. Thankfully it was not a brand name cell or we would really be in a pickle, though one should exercise caution no matter the brand.
> 
> SoSa, if you have touched any of the residue or inhaled any of the fumes, go to your doctor IMMEDIATELY. Tell him that you believe you may have been exposed to Hydrogen Fluoride. HF is a dangerous acid that goes right through your skin and attaches to the calcium in your bones. The PDF Bombelman links to should probably also be printed out and given to your doctor if you have been exposed to any of the battery's fumes or residue.



Just your balls, HF (hydrogen Flouride) itself is not an acid..in aqueous form, it's known as Hydroflouric Acid (one of the strong acids [100% dissociation in water)

I'm sticking with tested BatteryStation batts


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## mooman (Jul 9, 2007)

*Re: Fenix P1D after battery explosion*

Not that this is a battery review...but I've been using Titanium batteries in quite a few different lights (both factory and mods) with no problems.


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## HarveyRich (Jul 9, 2007)

*Re: Fenix P1D after battery explosion*



> Originally Posted by SoSa: During the walk I used it on primary for less than an hour. As I mentioned formerly i used it very little (ten minutes, or so). After returning home i left it resting for an hour and wanted to see how much juice was left in it. The runtime of P1D on primary is more than two hours


If one suspects a problem it's probably better to test the voltage first with a DMM.


> Originally Posted by Cliff: If it is even remotely possible, it could logically happen with any brand of battery


Even though quality control varies by company, I guess that many, if not most of the major brand batteries are actually manufactured in China.


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## LuxLuthor (Jul 9, 2007)

Glad you are ok. 

Thanks for posting yet another reminder of the danger with Lithium cells. Unlike the overcharging explosions/fire/major thermal event, this discharge/internal short scenario is pretty tame in comparison. Thanks for sharing it with us! :thumbsup:


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## ltiu (Jul 9, 2007)

*Re: Fenix P1D after battery explosion*



bombelman said:


> Very important: READ: http://candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=124776
> 
> And this quoted from: http://candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=114455



" ... Please remember, if you have one of these Lithium 123 cells fail on you, especially if you inhale the fumes, are cut by any of the flying material, or get it on your skin, please see a doctor immediately, and take the MSDS sheet with you, so they know the hazardous items like the very nasty HydroFluoric Acid. ... "

OK, now you are scaring me. I'm scheduled to go in to a cave this coming weekend and I have decided to use AA Energizer Lithiums in my headlight. What if those things blow inside the low and narrow cave! 

Panic, gag, pass out?


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## fluke (Jul 9, 2007)

I am also panicing.
I have always got either a P3DCE/L1DCE/L2DCE all on lithiums.
Should I be worried ???
I also carry spare AAA/AA/CR123A in the car, do I need to be concerned ???


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## ltiu (Jul 9, 2007)

fluke said:


> I am also panicing.
> I have always got either a P3DCE/L1DCE/L2DCE all on lithiums.
> Should I be worried ???
> I also carry spare AAA/AA/CR123A in the car, do I need to be concerned ???



Chances are, it's probably like winning the lottery. But someone's got to win and someone always wins!


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## fluke (Jul 9, 2007)

ltiu said:


> Chances are, it's probably like winning the lottery. But someone's got to win and someone always wins!


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## ltiu (Jul 9, 2007)

*Re: Fenix P1D after battery explosion*



mooman said:


> Not that this is a battery review...but I've been using Titanium batteries in quite a few different lights (both factory and mods) with no problems.



Titanium? ... assuming you are talking about Energizer Titanium batteries are pumped up versions of alkalines and are not lithiums.


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## LED61 (Jul 9, 2007)

*Re: Fenix P1D after battery explosion*



SilverFox said:


> Hello SoSa,
> 
> Glad to hear that you are OK.
> 
> ...


 
Hi Tom

Do you think brand name cells like Duracell will have its protection circuit defend us from an internal short ?


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## GarageBoy (Jul 9, 2007)

*Re: Fenix P1D after battery explosion*

The vent IS the safety


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## SilverFox (Jul 9, 2007)

*Re: Fenix P1D after battery explosion*

Hello Alberto,

I believe the PTC is supposed to protect against this type of event. EDIT: I am off base here. MorePower pointed out in a response below that the PTC protects against external shorts. It does not help with internal shorts or thermal runaway. See post #72. ENDEDIT:

I am not sure if the brand that failed uses a PTC device, but all of the name brand cells do as well as some of the others. The Titanium cells originally did not have a PTC with the first batches that were sold, but they were added on subsequent batches. I believe all the BatteryStation cells are also PTC protected.

The PTC does add additional cost to the cell, so those who are looking for only the cheapest price may be at additional risk.

Tom


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## Sable (Jul 9, 2007)

How curious.

I suppose (like others) that extraordinarily poorly-constructed batteries could suffer from internal shorting when thermal expansion causes parts of the battery that ought not contact _to_ contact...which would explain why the light would have stayed on for a period of time, but only blew when left standing.

I think this one can be alleviated completely by staying away from, again as others have said, poor-quality batteries. I don't have any apprehension about using my Energizer/Duracell/Batterystation/etc. lithium batteries after this, my own self. This was, as far as we're aware, an isolated incident using a very poor-quality cell. No reason to be worried about a widespread problem or freak out.


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## LuxLuthor (Jul 9, 2007)

As far as I am aware, primary lithium cells (non-rechargeable) from a quality manufacturer have the best track record, but always best to stop when you first notice ANY dimming of bulb. Once you get into rechargeable LiPo/Li-Ion, your risk level goes up....and it is best to buy protected batteries that open the battery circuit if voltage gets too low (or too high with charging), or too hot.

Even with this incident which can be likely blamed on going for the cheapest version where that company has poor supervision/quality control guidelines, most of the lithium cell problems are from charging. 

One exception to that is the recalled laptop Lithium cell packs that started fires from some combination of poor pack/cell design, poorly insulated and structurally protected batteries from adjacent structures, lack of cell balancing, etc.

I personally would not be scared or panicked about using a QUALITY name cell as long as you are able to drop a light and move away from it for safety. Remember most cell phone and laptop batteries on airplanes are lithium...so this sort of thing is much less likely to happen unless you try to buy the cheapest crap cells around.


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## Illum (Jul 9, 2007)

*Re: Fenix P1D after battery explosion*



cliff said:


> I can understand how a light with two batteries might explode, but how does this happen with a single battery light?



lets hope its just a crappy cell

something tells me our previously established conclusion of cells consisting of different remaining capacities reverse-charging each other is only a partial conclusionoo:



ltiu said:


> Chances are, it's probably like winning the lottery. But someone's got to win and someone always wins!



only with batteries, when you win, you lose 



ltiu said:


> Titanium? ... assuming you are talking about Energizer Titanium batteries are pumped up versions of alkalines and are not lithiums.



I think hes referring to Titanium brand lithium cells
see here: http://www.flashlightreviews.com/reviews/titanium_123a.htm


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## KingGlamis (Jul 10, 2007)

LuxLuthor said:


> Once you get into rechargeable LiPo/Li-Ion, your risk level goes up....and it is best to buy protected batteries that open the battery circuit if voltage gets too low (or too high with charging), or too hot.


 
I'm a relative newbie. Can you explain the difference between protected and unprotected cells? I have RCR123As with the name Powerizer on them. Doesn't say where they were MFG-ed. But they do have a plastic "wrap" on them and what appears to be two vent holes on the positive end. Are these protected cells?


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## Bullzeyebill (Jul 10, 2007)

I think this is an isolated incident. In our CPF community we have seen few incidences of CR123 failure. It has occurred, and we have taken note.

That said, I have been using RCR123 batteries that have established a track record in high drain applications. Surefire, Streamlight, and Duracell, to name a few, appear to be better suited to our flashlight purposes. Remember, CR123's got their start as camera batteries, running flash, on and off in in fractions of a second. We require more of our CR123's and I think we should be very selective brand wise. Study Silver Fox's work up on CR123's in the sticky at the electronics, battery, etc. forum.

Bill


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## LED_Thrift (Jul 10, 2007)

KingGlamis said:


> I'm a relative newbie. Can you explain the difference between protected and unprotected cells? I have RCR123As with the name Powerizer on them. Doesn't say where they were MFG-ed. But they do have a plastic "wrap" on them and what appears to be two vent holes on the positive end. Are these protected cells?


 
Protected cells have a circuit in them that shuts the current off when the voltage of the cell gets low. Draining a lithium rechargable battery too low and then recharging it can sometimes create a dangerous condition. The protection circuit prevents the cell from being discharged too low. The downsides are: a slight increase in cost, a loss of capacity [my guess ~ 25%], and the fact that your light will go out with little or no warning. In some lights I can see the light getting a little dimmer and so I know the batteries will stop soon, in others it is very hard to tell.


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## Kentuckian (Jul 10, 2007)

SoSa, glad you're alright.

Does anyone know if these are good batteries http://www.amondotech.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWCATS&Category=241

I'm a noob anddon't know anything yet!:shakehead


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## fluke (Jul 10, 2007)

*Re: Fenix P1D after battery explosion*



SilverFox said:


> Hello Alberto,
> 
> I believe the PTC is supposed to protect against this type of event. I am not sure if the brand that failed uses a PTC device, but all of the name brand cells do as well as some of the others. The Titanium cells originally did not have a PTC with the first batches that were sold, but they were added on subsequent batches. I believe all the BatteryStation cells are also PTC protected.
> 
> ...



Is the PTC a true circuit on non rechargeable cells ???
Or is it just the name for a vent ???
I had some Colston brand CR123A's that when getting low make my Fenix drop to low.


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## Flymo (Jul 10, 2007)

I'm glad you are OK!






I would say, sue that factory of the batteries, or at least send them a email with pictures, to scare the poop out of them.


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## LuxLuthor (Jul 10, 2007)

KingGlamis said:


> I'm a relative newbie. Can you explain the difference between protected and unprotected cells? I have RCR123As with the name Powerizer on them. Doesn't say where they were MFG-ed. But they do have a plastic "wrap" on them and what appears to be two vent holes on the positive end. Are these protected cells?



It's a very good and important question. When we say "Protected" we mean a separate computer chip that is added and gives a cutoff (breaks the circuit in the battery from completing) if the voltage goes too low, the voltage goes too high, the current amperate goes too high, and the cell temperature rises too high.

I sacrificed one of my AW 14670 cells to show you exactly what this means. Click on the thumbnail images below. AW starts with a normal UNprotected cell in blue plastic which he also sells. These have the vent holes which help release pressure if the temperature rises, and gas expands. That means the starting blue, unprotected cell just has high temp venting protection (as far as I know).

Now note there is a thin computer chip on the bottom under a metal disc. One end is welded to the bottom (Negative Terminal) of the blue battery, and the other end uses a thin contact strip to run along the side and attach on the top Positive terminal.

It is this computer chip that does all the important sensing and interruption of the circuit, otherwise the blue cell is an unprotected cell. The additional black shrink wrap and label are added to keep the components anchored and insulated. You can feel and see the space at the bottom of the bottom of a protected AW battery where the PTC circuit is locate4d.

If the ones you are buying for other lights, such as R123 do not specify that they have this kind of protection, and especially if you don't see the circuit gap and feel the thin strip along the side, then it's pretty safe to assume you are not using protected Lithium cells. I hope this illustrates more clearly what a "Protected" battery actually means.



 

 

 





 

 

 




Finally, if I remove the blue wrapper you see the metal canister with the plastic circle on top that separates the Negative entire outside and the inner, middle top positive end. It is a shiny, stainless steel casing, it just photographed a darker color.


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## bombelman (Jul 10, 2007)

Nice pix Lux ! Thanks !


----------



## elgarak (Jul 10, 2007)

The protection circuit is added to (some) rechargeable cells. 

AFAIK, the primaries like the one that was reported to explode in this thread typically do not have an active circuit like this.

They should have a PTC, though. That stands for "Positive Temperature Coefficient"; it's simply a resistor that has higher resistance at higher temperature. It's there to limit the current when the battery is hot, since Lithium batteries are prone to thermal runaway: Hot batteries can produce a lot of current which makes them even hotter -- positive feedback without the PTC. Also, if the temp gets too high, the chemical inside break up, with nasty results (see the thread start). For instance, they release an oxidizer, which means that if they're on fire they can burn even without oxygen.


----------



## DM51 (Jul 10, 2007)

Good unprotected cells have PTC thermal protection - not the same thing as the low voltage / overcharge protection circuit.


----------



## Art Vandelay (Jul 10, 2007)

*Re: Fenix P1D after battery explosion*



SoSa said:


> It was was a cheap chinese with a "PW Powerstation" label on it.
> It is on sale in Europe by several vendors through the Internet.


I don't think they make rechargeable CR123s. Charging a non rechargeable could cause an explosion like that.


----------



## HarryN (Jul 10, 2007)

Sosa - Please consider the safety aspect of this event carefully. I was formerly trained as a chemical engineer. I am not an expert, but HF exposure is one of my greatest fears.

Trust me when I say that you have indeed been exposed to HF or similar from this event. Further, the area when the cell residue landed is also exposed, and possibly still contaminated.

While I am always hopeful and happy if nothing else happens here, it is a substantial risk to disregard the situation.

Please consider carefully to do the following:
- Clean up the area carefully with lots of water, (gloves / googles) and some ammonia (NH4OH) containing solution. This will help remove the F ion from your home.
- Go to a physician and insist on getting some of the special cream that contains Ca for potential skin contact with HF.
- A hospital burn ward should have Ca containing shots to ease the exposure

Dramatically increase your intake of Ca and Mg supplements for a few weeks.

Please do a search for another poor member of our community that had a similar thing happen with a 2 cell light. He got VERY sick, but did recover. He would have gotten less sick if he had been treated aggressively with Ca containing medications that are made for this kind of incident.

Take care

Harry


----------



## Kelvino (Jul 10, 2007)

And I thought changing my interest from knives to flashlights would save my wallet and my health.
Need to find me something new know :thinking:

Luckily you are okay SoSa.


----------



## Bullzeyebill (Jul 10, 2007)

Regarding Powerizer RCR123 3.7 volt cells, these cells do not have PTC so care must be used in their applications. I use these cells but monitor them closely and have found in my led applications with constant current light engines that the light will dim before the cell has discharged too far. I have used them with the A2, and at the first sign of dimming with the incan bulb, I remove them. See this URL, and it refers you to the Specification PDF for the Powerizer 3.7 volts RCR.

http://www.batteryspace.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=1389

Bill


----------



## LuxLuthor (Jul 10, 2007)

As my images show. There is a difference between a "PTC" "Positive Temperature Coefficient" vent holes (that elgarac mentioned above), and this electronic voltage/amperage circuit protection which is put on a computer chip. Many hear PTC as "Protection Circuit" which it is not. 

Very few if any Li-Ion cells will have a circuit added like AW does. One other very high quality Lithium cell brand that does is Pila which is more expensive. However, in addition to many other demanding specifications, notice that Pila uses a white plastic ring to give better shock/impact damage to the chip and components where AW's "lesser priced brands" use a layer of thick tape under metal end plate to insulate the chip from a fall. Stop and think about what happens if a battery falls on the bottom end in terms of crushing/damaging the chip components, which is yet one more thing to be careful with. Click on Thumbnails


----------



## Art Vandelay (Jul 10, 2007)

According to this guy's post on a German flashlight forum, his P1D CE came with a “PW power station CR123A lithium 3V”.

Here the link
http://www.messerforum.net/showpost.php?p=326775&postcount=126

Here is a translation into English
[URL]http://www.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.messerforum.net%2Fshowpost.php%3Fp%3D326775%26postcount%3D126&langpair=de%7Cen&hl=en&ie=UTF8
[/URL]


----------



## KingGlamis (Jul 10, 2007)

LuxLuthor said:


> It's a very good and important question. When we say "Protected" we mean a separate computer chip that is added and gives a cutoff (breaks the circuit in the battery from completing) if the voltage goes too low, the voltage goes too high, the current amperate goes too high, and the cell temperature rises too high.
> 
> I sacrificed one of my AW 14670 cells to show you exactly what this means. Click on the thumbnail images below. AW starts with a normal UNprotected cell in blue plastic which he also sells. These have the vent holes which help release pressure if the temperature rises, and gas expands. That means the starting blue, unprotected cell just has high temp venting protection (as far as I know).
> 
> ...


 
Thanks for the great explanation! My cells are unprotected. So If I buy protected cells can I still use the same smart charger?


----------



## LuxLuthor (Jul 10, 2007)

You can use the same charger with protected and unprotected 3.7V Li-Ion cells.


----------



## cy (Jul 11, 2007)

just found this thread... glad you're ok!


----------



## Robocop (Jul 12, 2007)

After reading this thread I have became very facinated with this and also a little troubled as well.....I have read many times that 2 cell lights are more prone to this battery problem and now read that discharging 123 cells too low could also possibly be a problem with Lithium cells. What about a double trouble scenario in a 2 cell light (already dangerous) with 2 completely depleted cells together in a 2 cell light?

Is there any way possible this could be a problem with a certain light rather than battery? I ask this simply as I have just remembered for years I used my trusty old Inova X5 to run down every last drop of power from 123 cells that would no longer power other lights. Not only was this bad according to much info in this thread but it was also a 2 cell 123 light which is also frowned on......I read of many that did this with their X5s including myself and never read of 1 problem.

Is it at all possible this is a newly developed problem due to some new procedure of making cells or again just a problem with a certain light or maybe even a certain environment feature. I simply never remember reading this problem years back when we all were taking 123 cells down to the end of their life and also doing it in multiple 123 cell lights.


----------



## fluke (Jul 12, 2007)

Robocop said:


> After reading this thread I have became very facinated with this and also a little troubled as well.....I have read many times that 2 cell lights are more prone to this battery problem and now read that discharging 123 cells too low could also possibly be a problem with Lithium cells. What about a double trouble scenario in a 2 cell light (already dangerous) with 2 completely depleted cells together in a 2 cell light?
> 
> Is there any way possible this could be a problem with a certain light rather than battery? I ask this simply as I have just remembered for years I used my trusty old Inova X5 to run down every last drop of power from 123 cells that would no longer power other lights. Not only was this bad according to much info in this thread but it was also a 2 cell 123 light which is also frowned on......I read of many that did this with their X5s including myself and never read of 1 problem.
> 
> Is it at all possible this is a newly developed problem due to some new procedure of making cells or again just a problem with a certain light or maybe even a certain environment feature. I simply never remember reading this problem years back when we all were taking 123 cells down to the end of their life and also doing it in multiple 123 cell lights.



I have stopped using my P3DCE and P2DCE, now I am using my L1DCE with an Alkaline in there.
And I'm using Panasonic CR123A's still makes me worry thou.


----------



## Archangel (Jul 12, 2007)

I use my MilkyCandle 2 to drain 2x123 to the very last drop all the time, so this isn't a cut-n-dry issue.


Robocop said:


> Is there any way possible this could be a problem with a certain light rather than battery? I ask this simply as I have just remembered for years I used my trusty old Inova X5 to run down every last drop of power from 123 cells that would no longer power other lights.


----------



## MorePower (Jul 12, 2007)

HarryN said:


> Sosa - Please consider the safety aspect of this event carefully. I was formerly trained as a chemical engineer. I am not an expert, but HF exposure is one of my greatest fears.
> 
> Trust me when I say that you have indeed been exposed to HF or similar from this event. Further, the area when the cell residue landed is also exposed, and possibly still contaminated.
> 
> ...



Here's my attempt at being the voice of reason.

I have also been trained as a chemical engineer. I worked at a battery company for 5+ years on various battery systems, including Li-MnO2 (ie. CR123A cells), and *I can say without reservation that* *HF exposure is far from my one of my greatest fears.*

Sosa, I'm glad you're okay, but from what you've written, I wouldn't worry too much if I were you.

If any HF were generated, it would have dissipated by now. HF is a liquid with a boiling point at slightly under room temperature (19.5°C / 67°F), so there's no need to do anything special to "help remove the F ion from your home."

Likewise, taking Ca and Mg supplements, getting a special cream containing Ca, or going to a burn ward to get calcium shots are all, most likely, complete overkill. See your doctor and explain what happened *if you feel sick*, but otherwise, I wouldn't sweat it if I were you.

*My suggestions:*
Use CR123 cells from major manufacturers.
If a CR123 cell vents or explodes, try not to breathe the fumes.
Wash up any residue.


Now a few side notes about some of the other posts in this thread:

Draining a single cell down to "nothing" in a light should be perfectly safe. We did this all the time, although we didn't use lights for the discharge, to prevent them from shorting and starting fires when disposed of.

Single cells will be more prone to venting if they have been abused (dropped, dented, etc), if they get too hot, or if they were of poor quality to begin with.

Multiple cell setups can have the same issues as above, in addition to the "cell mismatch" problem, where one cell can start charging another if the second cell had lower capacity.

A PTC in a primary cell will shut the cell down due to high current flow through an external circuit or short. High current will cause the PTC to heat, increasing its resistance. Increased resistance will reduce the current flow, which will allow the cell to cool down, at which point the PTC will "reset" and higher current can again be drawn. A PTC will not prevent internal shorting, nor will it prevent thermal runaway and venting due to internal shorting. This is why using cells from major manufacturers is important. QC and materials used are generally better, which means a reduced chance for internal shorts, bad crimps, out of spec vent pressures, and a variety of other problems.


----------



## LED61 (Jul 12, 2007)

Morepower, what happens if a primary cell does internally short ?


----------



## WildChild (Jul 12, 2007)

LED61 said:


> Morepower, what happens if a primary cell does internally short ?


----------



## David_Campen (Jul 12, 2007)

> Here's my attempt at being the voice of reason.
> 
> I have also been trained as a chemical engineer. I worked at a battery company for 5+ years on various battery systems, including Li-MnO2 (ie. CR123A cells), and I can say without reservation that HF exposure is far from my one of my greatest fears.
> 
> ...



Exactly, there is no need to jump on the HF hysteria bandwagon.


----------



## elgarak (Jul 12, 2007)

Could not agree more with the HF paranoia. I have worked in semiconductor research with HF solutions; they have to be respected a lot, but there should be not much of a danger with CR123As. Besides, not all CR123A chemistries use F.

Regarding the "sucking down the last bit of charge out of the battery", I hypothesize some problem depending on the technology used inside the light -- in particular if the light is regulated or directly driven.

In a direct drive light, like the Inova X5, the current drawn from the battery is determined by the battery itself -- if the battery runs down, the current goes down, so there is very little danger of explosive events.

In a regulated light, like the Fenix P1, the light tries to draw the same power from the battery as long as possible -- it draws a high current from the battery at the end of its lifetime. Usually I do not think that's a big deal, but in unlucky combinations, like an out-of-spec battery or slightly 'off' behavior of the regulating circuit, bad things could happen.


----------



## SilverFox (Jul 12, 2007)

Hello MorePower,

Thanks for clearing that up. I was studying a diagram of how a 123 cell is constructed and could not figure out how the PTC protects against internal shorting. Now it all makes sense. It doesn't... 

I have edited my earlier post to reflect this.

Tom


----------



## Illum (Jul 12, 2007)

SilverFox said:


> I was studying a diagram of how a 123 cell is constructed and could not figure out how the PTC protects against internal shorting. Now it all makes sense. It doesn't...
> 
> Tom



I don't think that was the PTC's design to do anyway. it limits current flow out from the battery if heat is present and is there to prevent thermal runaway should the heat increase the power flow from the system....should a short exist before the conducting path to the PTC its not going to do any good because current doesn't flow THROUGH it

I doubt theres a safety system for internal shorting


----------



## MorePower (Jul 12, 2007)

SilverFox said:


> Hello MorePower,
> 
> Thanks for clearing that up. I was studying a diagram of how a 123 cell is constructed and could not figure out how the PTC protects against internal shorting. Now it all makes sense. It doesn't...
> 
> ...



I'm not 100% sure on this, but I believe there may be some form of protection from internal shorting in the form of the separator material. I can't remember if it's used in LIon or Li-MnO2 cells, but one (or both) *may* have a porous polymer separator layer. When the cell heats excessively, as from an internal short, the polymer melts, the pores close, and the cell shuts down. After the metallic lithium at the point of the short is exhausted, no further reaction can take place. You've got a dead cell, but thermal runaway is averted.


----------



## Art Vandelay (Jul 12, 2007)

Would it be possible to create a safety feature that would prevent the charging of non-rechargeable batteries. How about preventing 3.0 bats from being charged like 3.7 bats?

Sure, your brain could do the same function. But this is to protect you on your worst day.

Ever had your bacon saved by reverse polarity protection?


----------



## europium (Jul 12, 2007)

Well, it looks to me like there is a puncture in the battery: 




And with respect to single cell problems, this is what I would look for:


MorePower said:


> ...
> 
> Draining a single cell down to "nothing" in a light should be perfectly safe. We did this all the time, although we didn't use lights for the discharge, to prevent them from shorting and starting fires when disposed of.
> 
> Single cells will be more prone to venting *if they have been abused (dropped, dented, etc)*, if they get too hot, or if they were of poor quality to begin with....


Hence, always inspect a battery before using it....

Eu


----------



## LuxLuthor (Jul 12, 2007)

Morepower, really great to hear your input and experience! Thanks!

_*Also, wanted to note in this thread that the newer AW Li-Ions have most if not more than the extra protective features shown with Pila images.*_


----------



## Illum (Jul 12, 2007)

Art Vandelay said:


> Would it be possible to create a safety feature that would prevent the charging of non-rechargeable batteries.



I really wonder why cant they simply throw a Schottky diode somewhere between the contacts...I mean gee, how expensive can an diode be compared to say, ruining ones health on the long run:sick2:


----------



## lctorana (Jul 12, 2007)

Illum_the_nation said:


> simply throw a Schottky diode somewhere between the contacts...


Like your thinking.

A schottky, however, would drop 0.5-0.6V at the sort of current (>1A) drawn by the brighter lights. And the heat dissipated would be inside the cell, so I'm not convinced a Schottky is the answer.

But that said, maybe some sort of biassed MosFet to do the same thing...


----------



## LED61 (Jul 12, 2007)

I've posted this link before and will gladly post it again. Everybody should read this great info from Duracell on Lithium Primaries safety features.

http://www.duracell.com/oem/primary/Lithium/safety.asp#design


----------



## doc_felixander (Jul 24, 2007)

Remember that any voltage drop, even if it's only 100mV, would change the charging behaviour. I guess the "best" that could happen would be a slight undercharge of 100mV.

Someone mentioned Panasonic cells from HK.....a friend of mine ordered a few. They seemed perfectly normal, but upon closer examination I noticed that the label said "Matsushita Elestric".


----------



## half-watt (Jul 24, 2007)

*Re: Fenix P1D after battery explosion*



cliff said:


> I can understand how a light with two batteries might explode, but how does this happen with a single battery light?





my GUESS is that there are multiple failure modes for a Li cell (primary or secondary Li-ion cells).

the simplistic panacea one cell charging another does fit the description of even some multi-cell explosions, IMO and non-explosion experience with a weakened pole-reversed cell in a pair.

obviously, the weak cell failure mode couldn't be the case here with just one cell.

according to some reading i've done, a Li cell (and Li-ion cell too) can develop an internal short if it is discharged too deeply under use.

my GUESS is that what happened here is that the cell shorted or produced a very, very low resistance path internal to the battery. either that or it just heated up too much due to 1) the P1D being on PRIMARY OR MAX output for a long period of time, and/or 2) something insulating the P1D so that heat could NOT be more effectively dissipated.

it is well known that Li and Li-ion cells can experience "thermal runaway" - the thermal equivalent of regenerative feedback. so, all the cell needs to do is heat itself up to a certain point and the outcome is a foregone conclusion, removing the load from the cell and even dumping the cell out of the hot flashlight will NOT stop the inevitable outcome once the thermal runaway boundary is crossed - the cell is now in thermal runaway an the outcome is perhaps inevitable - at least that's how i read the numerous articles and posts on the subject.


----------



## fluke (Jul 24, 2007)

doc_felixander said:


> Remember that any voltage drop, even if it's only 100mV, would change the charging behaviour. I guess the "best" that could happen would be a slight undercharge of 100mV.
> 
> Someone mentioned Panasonic cells from HK.....a friend of mine ordered a few. They seemed perfectly normal, but upon closer examination I noticed that the label said "Matsushita Elestric".



Yep that is exactly what mine say and they are now in the bin.
Just proves you get what you pays for :sigh:

EDIT:







It is also mentioned in this thread, post #40.
https://www.candlepowerforums.com/posts/2069115


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## carrot (Jul 24, 2007)

Doc_felixander, fluke:

Err, okay, a bit paranoid are we?

Panasonic is a brand name that Matsushita uses. Panasonic is also the only name brand that they use in the USA I am aware of. If you have any Panasonic electronics, then you have been happily using Matsushita products. Japanese cells are perfectly fine, and indeed Surefire has been known to have rebranded Panasonic cells at some point. I think, however, Surefire is rebranding Energizers now. But if you don't want 'em, I'd be happy to take them off your hands for free; I'll even pay shipping.


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## doc_felixander (Jul 24, 2007)

Sure.
But 'ELESTRIC'?


----------



## fluke (Jul 24, 2007)

carrot said:


> Doc_felixander, fluke:
> 
> Err, okay, a bit paranoid are we?
> 
> Panasonic is a brand name that Matsushita uses. Panasonic is also the only name brand that they use in the USA I am aware of. If you have any Panasonic electronics, then you have been happily using Matsushita products. Japanese cells are perfectly fine, and indeed Surefire has been known to have rebranded Panasonic cells at some point. I think, however, Surefire is rebranding Energizers now. But if you don't want 'em, I'd be happy to take them off your hands for free; I'll even pay shipping.



Paranoid ???
Yes...
I am happy with anything Panasonic, but, misspelling electric ???
I would rather not take the chance to be honest.
Bit late for the cells, sorry I would have shipped them out but they are past saving now :mecry:

Anyone got any US Panasonics to check spelling ???

I have contacted Panasonic UK to get an answer they are going to get back to me.


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## carrot (Jul 24, 2007)

Personally I would write it off as a typo. Have you seen Engrish.com? There are much worse English mistakes I am aware of. :shrug:


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## DM51 (Jul 24, 2007)

Fluke's "Panasonic" cells came from China, via eBay, and he was quite right to decide not to use them. They had been nowhere near Japan at any stage - they were cheapo knock-offs, pure and simple.


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## doc_felixander (Jul 24, 2007)

I write it off as a typo on knock-off cells. 
This one simple difference doesn't make them a legitimate brand and most probably wouldn't prevent Matsushita from kicking their ***.


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## fluke (Jul 24, 2007)

I will post results once Panasonic get back to me, but the lady in the Battery department said it more than likely a fake.


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## WildChild (Jul 24, 2007)

carrot, chevrofreak has some real Panasonic cells and there is no typo in "Electric" on those. For the others, Matsushita is indeed the company behind Panasonic.


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## evanlocc (Jul 25, 2007)

Sorry to hijack this thread... a while!



carrot said:


> Personally I would write it off as a typo. Have you seen Engrish.com? There are much worse English mistakes I am aware of. :shrug:




You really point me to have some real break...








I bet there will be more on that site after the 2008 Old-Lamp-Pic


----------



## zipplet (Jul 25, 2007)

ELESTRIC? This is just like my friends knock-off panasonics. They have that spelling, and came from china really cheaply...


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## Tritium (Jul 25, 2007)

*Re: Fenix P1D after battery explosion*



cliff said:


> I'm still trying to figure out how this type of thing can happen with a single cell. If it is even remotely possible, it could logically happen with any brand of battery.
> 
> Also, how do you exercise caution with a single-cell light? Other than holding the light with welding gloves I'm stumped.



The seal was damaged on this cell. It sucked in a "breath" of water vapor and Air which reacted with a boom. Simple stuff.

Thurmond


----------



## DM51 (Jul 25, 2007)

*Re: Fenix P1D after battery explosion*



Tritium said:


> The seal was damaged on this cell. It sucked in a "breath" of water vapor and Air which reacted with a boom. Simple stuff.


What makes you think that is what happened in this case?


----------



## fluke (Jul 25, 2007)

I had a call from Panasonic UK (Battery Department I assume) they are sending me a return package to mail the cells I have left (Messy retrieved form the kitchen bin :sick2. I will keep you posted.


----------



## Tritium (Jul 25, 2007)

*Re: Fenix P1D after battery explosion*



DM51 said:


> What makes you think that is what happened in this case?



Just an educated guess. I have read all I can find on lithium battery chemistry and the most common failure mode I have read about is the broken seal / water vapor / boom scenario. Unfortunately I cannot state my sources of information outside of saying that I googled it a while back when these battery explosions first surfaced and Newbie did his testing.

Thurmond


----------



## XeRay (Jul 25, 2007)

*Re: Fenix P1D after battery explosion*



fluke said:


> I have been asked where I got the Panasonic CR123A's from.
> 
> I have No connection with this site.
> 
> http://stores.ebay.co.uk/HKAsiaMall


 
Fake copies of Panasonic CR123A are being sold from Hong Kong / China. Buyer beware !!! That just came up as a Product recall in USA because the product had the fake batteries with it.


----------



## NA8 (Jul 26, 2007)

elgarak said:


> Regarding the "sucking down the last bit of charge out of the battery", I hypothesize some problem depending on the technology used inside the light -- in particular if the light is regulated or directly driven.
> 
> In a direct drive light, like the Inova X5, the current drawn from the battery is determined by the battery itself -- if the battery runs down, the current goes down, so there is very little danger of explosive events.
> 
> In a regulated light, like the Fenix P1, the light tries to draw the same power from the battery as long as possible -- it draws a high current from the battery at the end of its lifetime. Usually I do not think that's a big deal, but in unlucky combinations, like an out-of-spec battery or slightly 'off' behavior of the regulating circuit, bad things could happen.



I was thinking the Fenix may be TOO good. Maybe that's why they have that long low battery warning strobe on the P3D, it being their only two CR123 flashlight. 

http://lights.chevrofreak.com/runtimes/Fenix P3D/Fenix P3D - high.png


----------



## Luminescent (Jul 30, 2007)

I believe that the P1D's design is just as much at fault for creating the huge bang, as the battery was for letting go in the first place. 


I have seen batteries let go, but never with the kind of violent explosion that was described here, and I doubt battery itself would do much more then PHUUUT with a muffled pop, if it had let go on it's own outside the light.

When NiMH batteries made their debut a few years back, Radio Shack was one the few outlets that had them, and they made the monumentally stupid move of initially making them in exactly the same shiny gold color as their alkaline batteries. Sure-nuff, after a few weeks I made the mistake of recharging a set of alkaline batteries; having run down and removed the rechargables, and replaced them temporarily with a set of alkalines to keep the device running. Later, having forgot I had made this substitution, I removed and attempted to recharge what I thought were the rechargeable batteries.
 
A hour or so into a quick charge cycle I heard a muffled PLOP! from the kitchen, and when I went to investigate I found all the cells were bloated and leaking, and one had burst outright (making quite a nasty mess of the charger).

The thing that turns a 'muffled PLOP' into a 'huge bang' is the lack of a safety vent on the o-ring system of the Fenix light, which apparently allows insanely high pressures to build up.

If you look at a standard AA mini-maglight from the last few years you will see that the rear o-ring is an angled flap or wedge shaped piece of rubber, instead of the standard round o-ring.

This angled wedge folds back as the rear cap is screwd on, and is designed to work like a one way valve, sealing the light against water getting IN while allowing any gasses vented by the batteries to get OUT.

All lights should have this kind of pressure relief (or something else that will relieve pressure before it builds up to dangerous levels).

It was only blind luck (no pun intended) that the explosively ejected rear cap from the L1D didn't cause a lost eye or other serious injury.

The mini-mag aside, most waterproof lights, that are otherwise excellent, seem to suffer from this lack of a safety vent problem, so it would behoove everyone to be careful, especially when playing around with high performance batteries.


----------



## DM51 (Jul 30, 2007)

Luminescent said:


> I believe that the P1D's design is just as much at fault for creating the huge bang, as the battery was for letting go in the first place.
> 
> 
> I have seen batteries let go, but never with the kind of violent explosion that was described here, and I doubt battery itself would do much more then PHUUUT with a muffled pop, if it had let go on it's own outside the light.
> ...


I think you entirely understimate the suddenness and force with which a Lithium primary (or a Li-Ion rechargeable) can blow. No valve of the sort you describe would be able to contain the pressure and release it in a controlled manner. It is quite different from anything you may have observed with alkaline cells.


----------



## carrot (Jul 30, 2007)

To all who think this is a new phenomenon, please do some searches on lithium thermal runaway failures on CPF. You will find that this type of event has occurred and been recorded multiple times in the past. CPFer NewBie has been instrumental in the research of the phenomenon. 

However, the P1D explosion is interesting and unique because it is the first we have ever heard of a single 123 cell venting in such a manner. All previously known events have occurred with two or more 123 cells in series.


----------



## MorePower (Jul 30, 2007)

*Re: Fenix P1D after battery explosion*



Tritium said:


> The seal was damaged on this cell. It sucked in a "breath" of water vapor and Air which reacted with a boom. Simple stuff.
> 
> Thurmond



A bit of water vapor from the air is not enough to make a 123A go "boom." The reaction of metallic lithium with liquid water isn't even all that enthusiastic compared to sodium, and sodium is less energetic than potassium.

Here's a neat link with some movies of those three reactions. UW-Madison


----------



## Martini (Jul 30, 2007)

These counterfeit Panasonic batteries are very troubling to me.

As lithium batteries continue to become more prolific, I think the danger of cheap counterfeit cells is going to grow. Efficient and capable Chinese factories are very attractive to those who would gladly dupe the public into paying a premium for inferior products. The toothpaste scare drew a lot of attention to this issue, but not enough. For the safety of all involved, a concerted effort to identify the culprits and report them should be undertaken immediately.


----------



## Illum (Jul 30, 2007)

*Re: Fenix P1D after battery explosion*



Tritium said:


> The seal was damaged on this cell. It sucked in a "breath" of water vapor and Air which reacted with a boom. Simple stuff.
> 
> Thurmond



the safety vent is designed to blow out....not in. NewBie once said the vent is designed to puncture at 40 psi...and for the cell to possess -40psi to puncture and suck in water vapor or humidity would mean the cell was basically holding in a vacuum to begin with. I dont remember reading that the cr123a chemistry had anything endothermic about it...I could be wrong though 

assuming that it _was _damaged, and holds a negative pressure, its a sealed environment within the P1D.:thinking: only way for air to be drawn [or forced] in would be during the operation of the light the gas from within expanded...but 40 psi?

looking at NewBie's 123A dissection thread I was thinking of a short due to heat expansion, and the absence or defect in the porous protective liner that didn't melt when the cell reaction reached the breakdown temperature but instead formed a dead short between the two electrodes...either way its 

thats my $0.02


----------



## Luminescent (Jul 31, 2007)

DM51 said:


> I think you entirely understimate the suddenness and force with which a Lithium primary (or a Li-Ion rechargeable) can blow. No valve of the sort you describe would be able to contain the pressure and release it in a controlled manner. It is quite different from anything you may have observed with alkaline cells.


[FONT=&quot]
I agree that lithium batteries store a lot more energy, and are more dangerous in this regard, but even a simple alkaline cell would be more than capable of heating itself to the point of rupturing an internal seal if it sustained an internal short.
[/FONT]
 [FONT=&quot]I think we are not talking about a chemical reaction causing something to go bang in the gunpowder sense, so much as a simple internal short causing the cells energy to be rapidly released, flash boiling the cells electrolyte resulting in a steam explosion.

I also agree that just designing the o-ring to 'blow-by' in the outbound direction may not be enough, because there are other factors in the design of many light that create problems.

For example the safety vent is under the anode cap in most cells, but if the cell suddenly releases pressure in that direction, where can the resulting gasses go? The head of the light is sealed and the battery tube is so tight that the pressure can't get around the battery to reach a safety vent at the rear of the light, so in the case of such an anode cap rupture, the body of the battery will be driven back like a piston until it blows the rear end switch assembly right off of the light (which is what it looks like happened in this case).

Even given the above issues, I think a properly designed light could be set up to do a much better job of handling these kinds of failures.

For example, there could be double grove 'fail-safe' o-rings at each end of the light. The double grove design would use only a single o-ring, but provide a second grove OUTSIDE the main o-ring grove with a narrow ledge between the groves that would allow the o-ring to 'blow out' into the second grove when there is excessive internal pressure. The second grove area would be slightly oversized with scalloped notches to prevent the o-ring from sealing. Since only outbound internal pressure would unseat the o-ring, such a light would still be waterproof (even 30 or 100 Meter water proof), because the o-ring would always hard-seal in the inbound direction.

To prevent the battery 'piston effect' in a tightly fitting battery tube from blowing the head or tail cap assembly off of the light, vent groves should be cut into the battery tube.

I created a nice figure that shows both of the above ideas graphically, but whoever set up this forum seems to have opted for the practice of only accepting URL image links. 

Could that be true? Do I have that wrong? Are you really expected to have to go find some kind of mickey-mouse web image hosting service, upload your file to that, and copy the link.[/FONT][FONT=&quot] (hard to believe you can just point to the file on your local PC and upload the image like some other forums). 

Sorry for the unrelated side question, but [/FONT][FONT=&quot]the last time I ran into something like this on another forum, it turned out that there was indeed a way to directly upload images, I just didn't know what it was, so any help would be greatly appreciated.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][/FONT][FONT=&quot]If it's not a big hassle I sure would like to be able to post figures to show what I am talking about.[/FONT][FONT=&quot]

Thanks[/FONT]:thanks:


----------



## zipplet (Jul 31, 2007)

You can't upload images here at all - due to the sheer size of the userbase the amount of data needed to be stored on the server would be too much. You need to use something like imageshack and link to the URL.


----------



## DM51 (Jul 31, 2007)

I have resized your text quoted here to size 2. This is the size everyone else uses, and those who habitually use larger sizes are sometimes accused of shouting. 


Luminescent said:


> I agree that lithium batteries store a lot more energy, and are more dangerous in this regard, but even a simple alkaline cell would be more than capable of heating itself to the point of rupturing an internal seal if it sustained an internal short.
> I think we are not talking about a chemical reaction causing something to go bang in the gunpowder sense, so much as a simple internal short causing the cells energy to be rapidly released, flash boiling the cells electrolyte resulting in a steam explosion.
> 
> I also agree that just designing the o-ring to 'blow-by' in the outbound direction may not be enough, because there are other factors in the design of many light that create problems.
> ...


I suggest you do some reading about these venting incidents. This_thread should keep you occupied for a while. You will see that these incidents are rare, but when they occur they are violent and extremely dangerous. If you imagine a large firework going off, that would probably be the nearest to it. For any pressure release valve to work successfully, it would have to release a very large amount of gas very quickly, and at the same time deal with the large amount of heat that is released too. Even if a device could be designed to do all this, incorporating it into a flashlight body would greatly add to the bulk and weight of the light, and it would be completely impractical in the majority of cases.




Luminescent said:


> I created a nice figure that shows both of the above ideas graphically, but whoever set up this forum seems to have opted for the practice of only accepting URL image links.
> 
> Could that be true? Do I have that wrong? Are you really expected to have to go find some kind of mickey-mouse web image hosting service, upload your file to that, and copy the link. (hard to believe you can just point to the file on your local PC and upload the image like some other forums).
> 
> ...


You have to use a hosting service. Direct uploading is not allowed. www.photobucket.com is a good site – it is very quick and easy to use. You will need to get your post count up before you can posts images (I think you need >30 posts, but I am not certain of this figure).


----------



## Luminescent (Jul 31, 2007)

DM51 said:


> I have resized your text quoted here to size 2. This is the size everyone else uses, and those who habitually use larger sizes are sometimes accused of shouting. I suggest you do some reading about these venting incidents. This_thread should keep you occupied for a while. You will see that these incidents are rare, but when they occur they are violent and extremely dangerous. If you imagine a large firework going off, that would probably be the nearest to it. For any pressure release valve to work successfully, it would have to release a very large amount of gas very quickly, and at the same time deal with the large amount of heat that is released too. Even if a device could be designed to do all this, incorporating it into a flashlight body would greatly add to the bulk and weight of the light, and it would be completely impractical in the majority of cases. You have to use a hosting service. Direct uploading is not allowed. www.photobucket.com is a good site – it is very quick and easy to use. You will need to get your post count up before you can posts images (I think you need >30 posts, but I am not certain of this figure).




The larger font is one I used for composing, I'll try to post using the default font [though it's not a very comfortable size on my monitor].

Thanks for the reference link. After reviewing all the info, it still looks like cell ruptures that occur *outside* flashlights are much less violent, and that the flashlights themselves are part of the problem in creating the more violent explosive events.

For me, it's all summed up by this quote



> Originally Posted by *rube*
> I work at a nuclear power plant. A fire occured at another plant in my company. I'd appreciate your expert comments on the following taken from a company communication relative to the fire. I believe the issued lights were Surefire G2s
> 
> "a fire occurred in a small equipment locker in a security. The equipment locker contained small firearms and ammunition. The fire was extinguished and no injuries occurred.
> ...


 
In my experience, folks that work around nuclear power are pretty savvy, and the conclusion that they have come to pretty much matches my earlier comments about the design of the flashlights defeating the cells ability to vent properly.

In the many videos posted I see lots of sputtering and spitting and some minor pops from the cells when they are outside of a flashlight, but not the big bangs that have been reported when a flashlight body trys [unsuccessfully] to contain the venting.

I think that the fact that the initial pressure build up is not released when the cells first start to sputter, causes the failure to go from 'low order' to 'high order' and greatly increases the violence of the reaction.

This is why, as pointed out in the quote above, we don't see exploding cameras, and cell phones, even though they use the same battery technology. 

I still think that there could be improvements to flashlight design to make them safer with lithium batteries.


Here is the image I was talking about earlier . . .

Safer Lithium Battery flashlight design:








Even though the link you posted indicates that Lithium batteries are prone to venting failures, I think this figure illustrates a few things that can be done to prevent some of the most violent failures and create a safer flashlight for use with these batteries.

1. The o-ring is designed to release in the outward direction and seal in the inward direction only, this should give a nice waterproof seal without making the light an explosive hazard.

2. The inner surface of the light’s battery holder tube has deep channels to allow pressure equalization, and provide internal volume for expelled electrolyte from a failed cell. The idea is that the hazardous expelled electrolyte will displace the air in these channels [which will then exit through the fail-safe o-ring system]. This should prevent the gooey expelled electrolyte from plugging and defeating the venting system. The fluted channels will also provide critical thermal benefits because their large internal surface area will act as an internal to external heat exchanger, to help transfer heat generated by the cells to the outside of the flashlight where it can be dissipated by convection and radiation cooling into the surrounding air.  Reducing temperature rise may prevent the chemical reaction from reaching the threshold where minor cell venting becomes an explosive cell rupture. And lastly, if all else fails and pressure cannot be vented quickly enough, these channels can provide ‘soft-fail’ points in the battery tube where a seam can split without the flashlight potentially reaching thousands of pounds of explosively dangerous internal pressure.

Because of the potential to improve the safety and reduce danger to life and property, I release these design concepts into the public domain, so that hopefully they can be picked up and used by Fenix and others to create safer flashlight designs.


----------



## Martini (Aug 1, 2007)

Luminescent, I like your venturi-esque idea, though I think we also need to move toward flashlights that vent from the _front_ where hopefully it isn't pointing at or near anyone's face! 

Our hermetically-sealed lights with tight threads and multiple o-rings are essentially defeating the vents that the battery manufacturers put there for our safety! Surefire generally does a good job of planning out failure modes; I think all manufacturers need to look at what happens when a CR123A vents inside one of their lights.

As for design solutions, they can start by dissecting a Kuhn Rikon pressure cooker.


----------



## zipplet (Aug 1, 2007)

With the clicky fenix lights it probably won't be as terrible - the switch cap rubber can balloon out and puncture. However, there are no flutes down the battery tube so if the battery vents from the positive side...


----------



## Luminescent (Aug 1, 2007)

zipplet said:


> With the clicky fenix lights it probably won't be as terrible - the switch cap rubber can balloon out and puncture. However, there are no flutes down the battery tube so if the battery vents from the positive side...



[FONT=&quot]True, and from what I have read there have been some reports of the rubber switch cap swelling or bursting due to cell venting, just as you described.

Unfortunately, the anode end at the front of the cell is were the vent is on most Lithium cells, and when you also consider that many of these batteries are either slightly oversized or right on the upper limit diameter wise, and then figure in a little gooey electrolyte to act as a seal and you have got a really good piston to blow the tail cap right off the light explosively (this failure mode seems to be confirmed by the many reports of battery parts being forcibly blown out of the light after the tail cap blows).

[/FONT][FONT=&quot]I personally think that lights designed for use with Lithium cells should have fail safe blow-out o-ring seals which allow for venting at *both* the head and tail end of the light (in addition to the above illustrated grooved channels in the battery tube), just to be on the safe side.[/FONT]


----------



## soapy (Aug 1, 2007)

I'd be loathe to put cuts inside the battery tube. This would, in the event of an explosive failure, turn the tube into a grenade. For a single cell light, you want the ends to fail. 

Sure, if the flying tailcap hit something it would do some damage, but generally it wouldn't be much, since the blunt tailcap will tumble and lose energy quickly, even if it did hit something/someone. It would be a near miss quite often, but the chances of damage are low. :thumbsup:

Having the sides peel apart would, on the other hand (boom boom) frag the poor users hand into ground beef! Contact is assured, and the sharp metal would be hitting at point blank. :thumbsdow

I agree with having a pressure venting direction, and the idea of the waterproof flap is a good one. Obviously it won't stop very rapid events, but it will stop failures due to the sligtly slower events from becoming a bigger issue.


----------



## Luminescent (Aug 2, 2007)

soapy said:


> I'd be loathe to put cuts inside the battery tube. This would, in the event of an explosive failure, turn the tube into a grenade. For a single cell light, you want the ends to fail.
> 
> Sure, if the flying tailcap hit something it would do some damage, but generally it wouldn't be much, since the blunt tailcap will tumble and lose energy quickly, even if it did hit something/someone. It would be a near miss quite often, but the chances of damage are low. :thumbsup:



[FONT=&quot]As Count Floyd used to say - "Scaaary! SCAAAAARY!!!"[/FONT] :eeksign:
[FONT=&quot]
Actually, in all seriousness, thanks for making this point.

I probably should have shown one of the seams deeper and more sharply cut in my diagram, but even as it is shown, fragmentation would not be much of an issue in a typical aluminum or stainless steel flashlight.
[/FONT]
Pineapple grenades use TNT and Cast Iron, which is extremely brittle and which, under the influence of the HE shock wave from the explosive charge (tens of thousands to hundreds of thousands of feet per second) fractures into hundreds of fragments just as you described. 

Aluminum and [FONT=&quot]stainless steel[/FONT] are not brittle like cast iron, they tend to bend and tear instead of fracturing, and despite the fact that TNT is used as a ‘stored energy’ comparison [for scale] on the very FAR FAR FAR right of the charts which you can find linked in the above lithium battery venting discussions, the truth is, a lithium battery is just NOT going to let go with anywhere near the violence and speed of a HE charge. 

Also, one of the groves could quite easily be more deeply angled and cut to within a fraction of a millimeter of the outer surface to guarantee that the tube would simply tear open and split at that point with no possibility of fragmentation at all, so I don’t think this will be much of a worry. 

With a tube that is designed to simply ‘split a seam’ before pressures rise to dangerously high levels, and where the escaping gasses would then have to act on the entire mass of the flashlight, I would expect that the rupture would, at worst, simply send the tube skittering across the floor harmlessly.

Also with the outward pressure release o-ring vent system I described, and the extra volume provided by the groves for the vented electrolyte to expand into, I believe we could avoid haveing the tube rupture in the first place in nearly all cases.
 
On the other hand, I am a little less optimistic about the uncontrolled thread blow out you described; which on many lights will require huge pressures (several hundred to a couple thousand pounds), that will literally send the tail cap flying with the force of a rifle bullet.

[FONT=&quot]As one of my scatterbrained friends used to say, “It’s six of one, six and an half-dozen of the other”, but I think I kind of prefer the ‘split a seam’ approach.



[/FONT]


----------



## soapy (Aug 4, 2007)

If we could be sure that all failures were going to be slow pressure builds, then I would agree with your analysis. However, we don't know that, and from the videos of other failures, I can say that some of them were very much more energetic.

Remember that you are going to be holding this flashlight when it peels apart at speed. Yes, TNT and cast iron are a carefully derived combo for maximum effect, but they kill at 20 yards. It doesn't take much to turn a hand into mince, especially when in contact with it.

Personally, I say lose the channels - they would be hard and expensive to form anyway - and simply mill a flat into the tail end of the tube, about 3mm in, just behind where the tailcap ends. This weak point will vent before the pressure gets too high, and will be perfectly waterproof, and also protected by the tailcap structure enough that it can't be damaged easily. Should it fail to vent, it will still be a weaker point for the case to distort the endcap outwards a fraction before the thread gave. Problem solved, without the risk (however remote) of shrapnel.


----------



## LuxLuthor (Aug 15, 2007)

Just wanted to add this member's post about his Li-Ion explosion so it is a part of some record. I don't know his details yet...but these events are surely not as rare as a lightning strike.


----------



## fluke (Aug 20, 2007)

OK update about the Panasonic cells from Ebay China, the ones with "Elestric" in stead of electric.

They have sent me some cells to replace the ones I sent them, and state they appear to be fakes on first examination, but are sending them to Belguim for further tests.

I will keep you posted on the outcome.


----------



## LuxLuthor (Aug 20, 2007)

I'm surprised they did that, but good news for you!


----------



## hank (Aug 20, 2007)

It's smart business for the legitimate manufacturer to reward people who are quick to report and send in suspect fake cells.

It gives the manufacturer a warning the bad ones exist, a chance to find the problem (is it just a bad label, or a forgery, and if so how bad a forgery) and put up info on how to identify good cells for their website and help line.

As far as I know the pharmaceutical industry won't treat you that well if you find out your drugs are fake --- and it appears quite likely many of them are, nowadays. http://www.alertnet.org/db/blogs/22751/2007/01/23-151930-1.htm


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## fluke (Aug 30, 2007)

OK next update.

Those cells were indeed fake  They are going to investigate further.
Would seem it is indeed true, "You Gets What You Pay For"

Live and learn.


----------



## Bushman5 (Oct 25, 2007)

what about rechargable CR123's?  i just bought a 14 of them, the purple ones that come with the nano charger.... 

maybe its time to ban these lithium firebombs...seems there has been nothing but problems with lithium primaries and rechargables :duh2:


----------



## Bushman5 (Oct 25, 2007)

*Re: Fenix P1D after battery explosion*



ltiu said:


> " ... Please remember, if you have one of these Lithium 123 cells fail on you, especially if you inhale the fumes, are cut by any of the flying material, or get it on your skin, please see a doctor immediately, and take the MSDS sheet with you, so they know the hazardous items like the very nasty HydroFluoric Acid. ... "
> 
> OK, now you are scaring me. I'm scheduled to go in to a cave this coming weekend and I have decided to use AA Energizer Lithiums in my headlight. What if those things blow inside the low and narrow cave!
> 
> Panic, gag, pass out?



uh, where does one get an MSDS sheet? i bought mine rechargables online, and they dont have such sheets in hong kong? (i dont think)


----------



## Bushman5 (Oct 25, 2007)

soapy said:


> I'd be loathe to put cuts inside the battery tube. This would, in the event of an explosive failure, turn the tube into a grenade. For a single cell light, you want the ends to fail.
> 
> Sure, if the flying tailcap hit something it would do some damage, but generally it wouldn't be much, since the blunt tailcap will tumble and lose energy quickly, even if it did hit something/someone. It would be a near miss quite often, but the chances of damage are low. :thumbsup:
> 
> ...



should i drill a hole in the end of my P1D CE and put a tiny dab of silicone sealer in it, to act as a safety vent? I still want the water proof feature...as i hike is wet weather and do water crossings frequently....


----------



## PlayboyJoeShmoe (Oct 25, 2007)

*Re: Fenix P1D after battery explosion*

I am responding at the bottom of the first page.

My P1 (plain old LUX 1 level P1) has managed to work itself on twice and kill batteries DEAD. One Battery Station cell and one "Juice RCR123".

The Juice cell SEEMS to have recovered. Perhaps it is a "smart" cell that only discharged so far.

I think MAYBE I'm lucky the BS cell didn't go


----------



## VidPro (Oct 25, 2007)

Luminescent said:


> [FONT=&quot]As one of my scatterbrained friends used to say, “It’s six of one, six and an half-dozen of the other”, but I think I kind of prefer the ‘split a seam’ approach.
> 
> [/FONT]


 
mythbusters tested extensivly the sealing of the end of a Gun , like as seen in the Bugs bunny cartoons, and they were pretty unsucessfull at being able to blow the gun to pieces.
the bolts blew out (obvoiously on non locking bolt mechanisms) , the barrels expanded, but they didnt aquire any good fragging of the round tube on a gun. obviously the aluminum on a cheap flashlight is more brittle , but it was an interesting test, and they did test riffled barrels too.

but heck people already own Pinapple textured lights  but they are so thick and heavy there is no way they are going to frag.


----------



## meeshu (Oct 25, 2007)

*Re: Fenix P1D after battery explosion*



fluke said:


> I have been asked where I got the Panasonic CR123A's from.
> 
> I have No connection with this site.
> 
> http://stores.ebay.co.uk/HKAsiaMall



I purchased 12 Panasonic CR123 cells from this store awhile ago. But EVERY cell I received was either completely or nearly discharged!!!?? However, to their credit, the store did refund me!

But, I am not going to waste time ordering these CR123 cells from them again, in case there are further issues!


----------



## 4sevens (Oct 25, 2007)

*Re: Fenix P1D after battery explosion*



meeshu said:


> I purchased 12 Panasonic CR123 cells from this store awhile ago. But EVERY cell I received was either completely or nearly discharged!!!?? However, to their credit, the store did refund me!
> 
> But, I am not going to waste time ordering these CR123 cells from them again, in case there are further issues!


Keep in mind not all cells are genuine. There are lots of counterfeit cells made in asia using popular brands.

For the record, I just started carrying panasonics. These cells are made in
the USA. Actually they are made in my own state Georgia! I know for sure
because I buy from them direct!  They just approved my account and
we are now a panasonic battery dealer


----------



## Tubor (Oct 26, 2007)

OMG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! And I've just bought some Ultrafire protected and non-protected 10440's & 14500's, and a WF-138 for AA/AAA Li-Ion's. Anyone had any problems with these?? I might have to bin them when they get here.


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## soapy (Oct 29, 2007)

Bushman5 said:


> what about rechargable CR123's?  i just bought a 14 of them, the purple ones that come with the nano charger....
> 
> maybe its time to ban these lithium firebombs...seems there has been nothing but problems with lithium primaries and rechargables :duh2:



Ban them how? Mostly they are sold by an overseas based seller, and simply posted in from there. Banning a million a year + business so the only people working in it are cowboys? Then how would you feed your lights? And when you bought a bad cell that maimed you, you wouldn't even be able to admit what happened, because you'd have been illegally importing these batteries you called for the banning of. Why, you'd be as bad as politicians who cry out for harsher gun laws, whilst safely guarded by men with guns who ensure they never need one personally!

When will people learn? Banning things does not work.


----------



## soapy (Oct 29, 2007)

VidPro said:


> mythbusters tested extensivly the sealing of the end of a Gun , like as seen in the Bugs bunny cartoons, and they were pretty unsucessfull at being able to blow the gun to pieces.
> the bolts blew out (obvoiously on non locking bolt mechanisms) , the barrels expanded, but they didnt aquire any good fragging of the round tube on a gun. obviously the aluminum on a cheap flashlight is more brittle , but it was an interesting test, and they did test riffled barrels too.
> 
> but heck people already own Pinapple textured lights  but they are so thick and heavy there is no way they are going to frag.



You won't blow out a rifle barrel very easily, especially not if it is a military spec. This is because the military understand that having a barrel that can frag is a really bad idea. However, the resulting bulge trashes any hope of accuracy from it.

Try the same with a shotgun, or a (lot of) pistols, and you will have very different results. Heck, try hot homeloads through a target 'fibre-wrapped barrel, and you'll get some lovely de-lamination and a big, big mess!

As for the pineapple walls being thck, that doesn't matter. It's the burst pressure strength of the *seams* that matters. Don't forget, the case wall on a grenade is about 5mm of steel. But it's the 1mm thick seams that fail.


----------



## Bullzeyebill (Oct 29, 2007)

The P1D uses PWM right, or something akin to it? Is the circuit always drawing power from the battery, even when off? Might cause the battery to vent, or contribute to venting? Just thinking out loud.

Another thought, a poster in this chevrofreak runtime thread re L1D and L2D, post 88, reported 

https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/155819&page=2

that his L2D's tailcap was ballooning while on and sitting on a table. One of the nimh cells had vented. He unscrewed the tailcap and the pressure was released. I would approve of some sort of venting system for the Fenix lights, built in. I am considering ordering a L1D. I will at least pin prick the rubber tailcap a few times. Waterproofness may be compromised but I want any venting to be released.

Bill


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## koala (Oct 29, 2007)

Regarding fake cells on ebay, you gotta be careful...

A genuine Panasonic will do 1400mAh at discharge rate of 1A.
The fake "elestric" can't even do 1A. It discharge to about ~1040mAh at 0.5A

The fake cell is slightly fatter than the real. The real Panasonic has batch number stamping and also green ring at the bottom. Generally, avoid ebay Panasonic CR123A which sells for less than $2 a piece.

Fake vs Genuine.


----------



## PlayboyJoeShmoe (Oct 29, 2007)

If I ever run out of equalized flash amps Battery Station 123s, I'm not sure WHAT I'll do!

Probably just run 17500 and 18650 single cells instead.


----------



## fluke (Oct 29, 2007)

koala said:


> Regarding fake cells on ebay, you gotta be careful...
> 
> A genuine Panasonic will do 1400mAh at discharge rate of 1A.
> The fake "elestric" can't even do 1A. It discharge to about ~1040mAh at 0.5A
> ...



Thats what I had and Panasonic were nice enough to replace them


----------



## LEDdicted (Oct 30, 2007)

I just got scammed into buying these Matsushita Elestric batteries on ebay too. :shakehead The seller stated they were coming from US but they shipped from Hong Kong. I tested the discharge with my DMM on high in my P1D Q5 and it measured 1.3A:huh: Needless to say, they are going right in the garbage.


----------



## digitor (Oct 30, 2007)

*Re: Fenix P1D after battery explosion*



fluke said:


> I have been asked where I got the Panasonic CR123A's from.
> 
> I have No connection with this site.
> 
> http://stores.ebay.co.uk/HKAsiaMall



I bought 12 "Panasonics" from this store as well - I just checked them, and they are the "Elestric" fakes. I'm going to try for a refund!

Cheers


----------



## koala (Oct 30, 2007)

*Re: Fenix P1D after battery explosion*

Hey digitor,

Did they come in card packaging(like the ones sold in supermarket) with the expiry printed on the card or in shrink wrap packaging? If you paid for using paypal you can file for a refund.

Vincent.



digitor said:


> I bought 12 "Panasonics" from this store as well - I just checked them, and they are the "Elestric" fakes. I'm going to try for a refund!
> 
> Cheers


----------



## fluke (Oct 30, 2007)

*Re: Fenix P1D after battery explosion*



digitor said:


> I bought 12 "Panasonics" from this store as well - I just checked them, and they are the "Elestric" fakes. I'm going to try for a refund!
> 
> Cheers



Give it a go.


----------



## digitor (Oct 30, 2007)

*Re: Fenix P1D after battery explosion*



koala said:


> Hey digitor,
> 
> Did they come in card packaging(like the ones sold in supermarket) with the expiry printed on the card or in shrink wrap packaging? If you paid for using paypal you can file for a refund.
> 
> Vincent.


 
They came in shrink wrap packaging, four to a pack. I've lodged an enquiry with Panasonic Aust. to confirm that they're fake, then I'll see how I go with the refund. I did use Paypal - unfortunately it was over twelve months ago I bought them - but there should be no time limits on counterfeit goods!

Cheers


----------



## Art Vandelay (Nov 1, 2007)

*Re: Fenix P1D after battery explosion*



digitor said:


> They came in shrink wrap packaging, four to a pack. I've lodged an enquiry with Panasonic Aust. to confirm that they're fake, then I'll see how I go with the refund. I did use Paypal - unfortunately it was over twelve months ago I bought them - but there should be no time limits on counterfeit goods!
> 
> Cheers



Even if what you say is totally right, it may be too late for you to get your money back from Paypal. It still may be worth it to report it because you may keep this from happening to others. Paypal can lock down an account with all the money still in it, and keep it locked until they decide things are legal. E-bay probably has it's hands full, but they would probably move a counterfeit product that can accidentally *explode* :sick2: to the top of their list.


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## digitor (Nov 1, 2007)

Art, I think you're right about getting the refund from PayPal, I'm probably too late - but I still intend to complain! I will try first with HKAsiaMall, if I can find out how to get in touch with them directly. I think always the supplier should be given the chance to rectify the problem first, before resorting to other avenues.

Cheers


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## g36pilot (Nov 2, 2007)

*Re: Fenix P1D after battery explosion*



Bushman5 said:


> uh, where does one get an MSDS sheet? i bought mine rechargables online, and they dont have such sheets in hong kong? (i dont think)


 
Bushman5,

Take your pick:

*Material Safety Data Sheets & Other Chemistry Data:*

HF: HydroFluric Acid 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrofluoric_acid HF data
http://www.emedicine.com/emerg/topic804.htm HF data
http://www.bu.edu/es/labsafety/ESMSDSs/MSHydFluoricAcid.html#anchor888417 HF MSDS
http://www.gpbatteries.com.hk/pic/MSDS_PhotoLithum.pdf GP MSDS
http://www.septechnologies.biz/battery/products/manufactures/sanyo/spec_sheet/sanyo_lithium_msds.pdf Sanyo Li Battery MSDS Data
*[FONT=Arial,Bold]http://www.seabird.com/pdf_documents/msds_sheets/Saft_3.6VLithiumAA.pdf[/FONT]**[FONT=Arial,Bold] MSDS/PSDS Li-SOCl[/FONT]**[FONT=Arial,Bold]2[/FONT]*
http://www.gfschemicals.com/Search/MSDS/2534MSDS.PDF Li HexaFl 
http://www.duracell.com/oem/safety/pdf/2003_5C.pdf Duracell MSDS
http://www.hp.com/hpinfo/globalcitizenship/environment/pdf/msds_lg_liion.pdf LG18650 MSDS
http://www.batteryspace.com/prod-specs/MSDSLiion.pdfBatteryspace MSDS w/HF warning


g36pilot


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## alnico357 (Nov 3, 2007)

I've seen a Glock 22 melted from lithium batteries in the tactical light. It is amazing how much damage can be done.


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## bertie123 (Oct 23, 2009)

*Re: Fenix P1D after battery explosion*



Daniel_sk said:


> I would *stay away from these cheap batteries*. You can get quality batteries from US at reasonable prices.
> I got my energizers from fenix-store for $1.75/battery including shipping. Not the cheapest, but compared to EU prices (and the dollar is weak), it's pretty cheap.
> 
> How much did you pay for these chinese batteries?


 
Ooh damn, you guys are scaring me  I've go a fenix PD30+ R2 and i've just ordered Titanium CR123a (not rechargable). Should these one be safe ? the where quit cheap (1 dollar each). And I know it can always happen with every brand, but should I buy other batteries next time or am i good with these ? 

THANX IF ANYONE CAN HELP:thumbsup:


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## CaseyS (Oct 23, 2009)

Even if they're good batteries, it's a good idea to test them before using to make make sure their starting voltage is closely matched.


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