# The SF M6-R: a regulated rechargeable SF M6 (HOLA)



## js (Oct 27, 2004)

*THE SHORT VERSION* ("just the facts, please")

This post documents a drop-in regulated, rechargeable NiMH battery pack and charging system specifically designed to work with the SureFire M6 running the MN21 HOLA. The battery pack fits in exactly the same space that the MB20 battery holder occupies, and does not require the springs to take up any extra length, nor does it require any modifications or additions to the M6 body, head, or switch.

The regulation voltage is set slightly higher than the highest voltage obtained from the MB20 battery holder with 6 fresh SF123A Lithium batteries, and the battery pack and integrated regulator stay in regulation over the entire 19 minute runtime. What this means, for those of you who are white-light, fresh-battery junkies, is that the lamp continues to deliver the same beautiful white and bright output for as long as the batteries have something to give.

The fast-charging system is based around the MAX712 fast charge IC and will charge the battery pack in just over 2 hours, at which point it automatically switches to a trickle-charge to maintain and equalize the cells. The charging system will not work from a 12 volt automobile adapter, unfortunately.

*SOME INTRODUCTORY RAMBLING*

Alright, that was the "abstract" portion for those who were impatient to have the salient facts ASAP. On to lots more details and pictures and discussion.

First of all, let me say that I have always been a bit annoyed by posts like "Well, at $22.50 per hour you can keep the SF M6; it's too rich for my blood." This has always seemed a bit like saying, "I think an M1 abrams is just stupid! Do you realize how much it would cost you to drive an hour to the coast and back?" The M1, like the M6, is not intended to be your EDC! I mean, as if anyone stands around for an hour, popping one full MB20 after another into an M6. It wasn't designed for recreational use.

Still, as this entire project tacitly admits, the $22.50/hr figure has a point to make, especially for those of us who primarily use our lights recreationally, even if we may like to pretend that we're spec ops insurgents on a reconnoiter. The desire for a rechargeable M6 has existed and manifested itself on the forums for a long time now. Before I started on this project I did an extensive search of all the CPF threads on the subject, and there were more than a few, some of them fairly old. Seems like every few months there is another "M6 on rechargeables?" or "Pilas in an M6?" question in the incandescent forum.

Why go to all the trouble to make an M6 rechargeable, though?, people might ask. After all, isn't there a SF 10X dominator to fill that role? This is what I thought at first too, but the short answer is that no, the 10X and the M6 are very different lights for different purposes. I won't go into too much detail regarding the merits of the M6, but suffice it to say that it is small and good to hand and has a shock isolated bezel and tactically correct tail switch. It is hard anodized with a pyrex lens, and it is very bright.

*THE SF M6-R: A RECHARGEABLE M6*

So, one day an idea of how to make a rechargeable SureFire M6 dropped on top of my head and I couldn't let it go. It's not a new idea--in fact it's fairly obvious, although the execution is far from simple!--but it's a good idea, and I found myself compelled to buy an M6 and all the stuff and at least try to make a rechargeable M6 a reality. It happened more or less like this: I noticed that the A sized NiMH batteries had the same diameter as the 123's that are so popular on CPF. Next I started thinking about what combinations of what lengths of A NiMH rechargeables would be a close match for multiples of 123's. Fortunately or unfortunately, the ONLY close match was with the M6, due to the complicated battery holder which introduced enough extra length so that three 2/3A's or two 4/5A's would more than fit in the length of the MB20, which holds 2 123's along it's length in a triple stack.

Now, of course, this is heretical, right? NiMH batteries? What's wrong with you, Jim, don't you know that Li-Ion are the best choice for a rechargeable M6?

Well, actually, no, I don't know that. udaman once accused us hotwire guys of failing to "think outside the box" because we weren't using Lithium chemistry batteries. I think that on CPF that "the box" _*IS*_ Lithium chemistry. And this is understandable. Lithium batteries are pretty hard to beat in most ways, and have the highest energy densities of any battery chemistry currently in existence. Even so, the one downfall of currently available Li-Ion batteries is that they have high internal resistance and are not good at delivering high currents. First of all, they lose capacity and fail to deliver what they are nominally rated for, and second, they drop voltage due to their internal resistance, and third, they do not have good cycle life expectancy when run at these current rates. And, boy, does the M6 HOLA draw some current! Near 5 amps. And I'm not even getting into any safety issues of Lithium-ion and Lithium-poly rechargeable batteries.

That said, however, it looks to me as if two 18650 Li-ion batteries in series are a good match with the MN21and should provide 20 minutes of unregulated runtime. As for how many cycles they will last and how they will hold up, I do not know. Also, according to what I've read, these will fit inside a bored-out M4 body, which would give the same 500 lumen output of the M6 HOLA in an M4 configuration. Even so, I would still prefer my regulated, rechargeable NiMH pack in an M6 to these options.

*A REGULATED M6*

So back to the story at hand: once I had determined that the very same battery packs which I use for the TigerLight upgrades were a perfect fit in the M6 battery compartment, I had to wrestle with the problem of delivering the correct voltage to the M6 MN21 HOLA and also, if possible, the MN20 LOLA. I consulted Brock's flashlight page (which I now believe to be incorrect, BTW), made my own measurement, and finally, consulted with Willie Hunt, who is the SureFire engineer who sells the LVR flashlight light bulb regulators. The upshot was that in order to have a bright, white beam, I needed to provide a voltage under load of 6.8 volts to the MN21. This is too low for direct drive from either the 6 cell or the 9 cell pack, and thus I knew I needed a buck regulator. Also, it is too high for the 6 cell pack to stay in regulation over the entire run. Thus, my choice was clear: a 9 cell 2/3A NiMH battery pack with one of Willie Hunt's LVR regulators set at 6.8 volts and integrated into the pack to make a single, rather sophisticated regulated rechargeable battery pack.

The next challenge was to make the LVR fit comfortably in the space left between the circular battery compartment and the triple stack of 2/3A's--and it certainly *was* a challenge. I did this by having Willie leave out the ON/OFF/DIMMING button and by remote mounting the Power FET just a bit farther down the side of the battery pack.

There was more than just the space issue, of course. Integrating the regulator into a triple stack of three series cells involved two jumper braids to make the stacks into a 9 series configuration, and involved three connections to the LVR and two connections to rounded triangular metal end caps which had to be electrically isolated from the rest of the battery pack, *and* it required creating two additional connections directly to the + and - contact points of the battery pack for charging, because it is impossible to charge the pack through the LVR. This also required a set of male and female connectors which were both shielded and isolated so that neither the battery pack nor the charger could be inadvertently shorted.

I decided to use the new GP 1100 2/3A NiMH batteries, not so much because of the slightly great capacity than the KAN 1050's, nor because of the higher current capability (much more than is needed), but because they are slightly _shorter_ than the KAN 1050's. Here is a picture of the GP batteries with a few of the KAN's. You can see that I removed the wrap from the batteries and also made new kapton insulators to replace the fiberboard ones. I needed to do this because the batteries would not seat together properly with the wrap in place and because the insulators were not glued in place and in my opinion were not suitably resistant enough to high temperatures to make a good end-to-end solder shield.







After end-to-end soldering I wrapped each stack of three in kapton tape, although if I had nice thin shrink wrap I probably would have used that instead:






Next I glued the stacks together into a triangle formation with RTV silicone adhesive.

*THE LVR3I REGULATOR*

This is the heart of the M6-R, Willie Hunt's LVR3I voltage regulator:






It does it's job of voltage regulation very efficiently. In fact, Willie claims that it is 99 percent efficient. The LVR3I has a number of features that can be ordered as options, such as warning flashes, low-battery voltage cut-off, power-levels, and automatic low-level running at the end of battery cycle. As I had no room for the button, I could not have power-levels, and because the LVR is *always* connected to the battery pack, I could not have a low-battery cut-off, although the LVR will not function below 5 volts and will thus prevent the battery pack from being depleted to dangerously low levels. I did, however, order the M6-R LVR3I regulator set to give warning flashes when the battery reaches critically low levels (near .92 volts/cell). In addition, the LVR3I has a soft-start feature which limits the current flowing into the filament at start up. Due to the very low resistance of a cold filament and thus the very high startup current when direct driven, this is the time when most of lamps burn out. Limiting the startup current prolongs the life of the filament and allows one to run closer to the melting point of the filament for the brightest, whitest light possible from this technology.

Here is the pack with integrated LVR and charging connector. The wires to the left and right will be attached to the underside of the copper end caps.






Here are the copper end caps before they have been tinned with 96.5Sn/3.5Ag solder. I use this silver bearing lead-free solder due to it's resistance to corrosion and oxidation and because it is the hardest of all the solders.






And finally, here is the prototype pack getting a charge. (Keep in mind that it is a bit rough around the edges, being a proto-type and all):






*THE CHARGING SYSTEM*

At first, I was going to make a simple LM317T based trickle charger for this setup, but upon investigation, I found that there were fast-charge IC controllers which greatly simplified building and designing a smart charger. With these chips it is actually *so* simple that it isn't much more work than an LM317T based circuit. I used Maxim-IC's MAX712 because it was readily available from Newark and their documentation was good and because others had already used the 712 and with good results: see this link for example. Note that I disagree with one calculation on this site (see below).

There are two especially nice things about the 712. One is that it is a zero delta V peak detect circuit, which means that if for some reason it fails to detect end of charge the first time, it has an infinite number of chances after that. The negative delta V circuit, on the other hand, will wait until it sees a voltage drop, so it only has one chance. The other nice thing about the 712 is that it switches over to a gentle C/16 slow charge after the completion of fast charging, and will thus equalize all the cells if they need it, and will maintain the battery pack at full charge until you go to use it. Even so, the current is not low enough to allow you to leave the pack connected to the charger 24/7, and it should be removed after no longer than several hours of trickle charging.

My circuit is exactly the same as the "Typical Operating Circuit" in the applications notes, with the addition of LED indicators for power and fast-charge, also described in the applications notes. This means, for those of you who might be thinking of building this circuit, that you will need to have enough current flowing into the V+ pin node to supply *both* the fast-charge indicator LED *and* the V+ pin. The V+ pin needs at least 5 mA, but can handle as much as 20mA, while the LED current must be exactly 5 mA. Thus the value of R1 should be such that 10 mA minimum flows into this node, and *not* the 5 mA described in the weblink above.

Here are a few pictures of the charging system:











This is just the proto-type, and will need to be tweaked a bit. In particular, I think that the heat sink I am using is overkill, and also that I could easily go to a smaller box. But these are minor issues; I am very happy with the performance of this circuit. Maxim-IC has done a great job with this chip.

And in case anyone is wondering, yes, I am all setup to use the same circuit (with different component values) to build a fast charger for the TigerLight. Details to follow in a separate thread. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

*SO, IS ANYONE INTERESTED?*

I wanted to wait before posting this, but Ginseng dropped a teaser in the thread "What's the closest thing to a rechargeable M6?". Plus, I really want to get a feel for how much interest there is in this mod. brightnorm is already on board as a field tester, although I have not yet sent him his M6-R pack and charger. I will be doing so in the next week, or sooner if I can. And after he has had a chance to give me (and us) his impressions and suggestions, I would like to build three more battery packs and chargers for three additional field testers, *if* there is enough interest in this mod to warrant a future build run. I would like for one of the field testers to be from the UK or Europe so I can deal with the problem of the different line voltage and powersupply. All of the field testers should be flashlight veterans with a good knowledge of the subject, and they should all obviously own an M6.

So, is anyone interested? Price will really depend on how many packs I build. If there is enough interest, I may be able to get the LVR3I's for cheaper than the standard $50 rate. Assuming $50, that would price the battery pack at about $110, and the charging system should cost around $75 and probably less—I need to sit down and add up the parts and labor. In any case keep in mind that for $10 or so I would be happy to provide a nice connector set with banana plug terminations to allow you to plug into any of the excellent chargers commercially available. The Hitec CG-340 comes to mind, which can be had for $38, although it still needs a 12VDC power supply. Many people use a surplus Cosel switching supply for $24 from ebay. www.ramboy.com sells them, but there were very few left the last time I checked.

Anyway, there it is. A rechargeable M6 is not only not an impossibility, it's now a reality.


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## kakster (Oct 27, 2004)

Im in for one /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbsup.gif

Sorry if i missed it, but can you run the MN20 with this pack?


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## turbodog (Oct 27, 2004)

1) Good work.

2) I think you used too many cells. At 6.8 volts, each cell is down to .75 volts or so. Unless you used matched cells, at least 1 cell is certainly depleted by then and on it's way to reversing.


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## BC0311 (Oct 27, 2004)

WOW, Jim! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/happy14.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/clap.gif 

Britt


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## KevinL (Oct 27, 2004)

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/faint.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/bowdown.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/bowdown.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/bowdown.gif

Rechargeable AND regulated at one fell swoop... amazing!


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## js (Oct 27, 2004)

[ QUOTE ]
*kakster said:*
Im in for one /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbsup.gif

Sorry if i missed it, but can you run the MN20 with this pack? 

[/ QUOTE ]

No, you didn't miss it. Good question. I haven't actually tried yet. LOL! The short answer is definitely "yes", but the real question is "how much will the M6-R pack *underdrive* the MN20?"

As I mentioned, this post is a bit premature, but heck, it's a THREAD, right? I will add stuff as I get it or determine it. I was just going to let brightnorm determine this question, because I had to send my LVR back to Willie Hunt to have him modify it. I ordered it with a low battery voltage cutoff without realizing that when this is activated the regulator latches OFF until power is removed from it. Unfortuately, the LVR is always connected to the pack so removing power from it is a very non-convenient procedure involving removing the shrink wrap and covering tape over the LVR, and unsoldering and resoldering one lead. When I get BN's pack up and running I will try out the LOLA and post here.


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## js (Oct 27, 2004)

[ QUOTE ]
*turbodog said:*
1) Good work.

2) I think you used too many cells. At 6.8 volts, each cell is down to .75 volts or so. Unless you used matched cells, at least 1 cell is certainly depleted by then and on it's way to reversing. 

[/ QUOTE ]

The warning flashes start at .92 volts/cell, and users are STRONGLY advised to turn off the M6 very shortly after getting the warning flashes. This is why the M6-R stays in regulation over the ENTIRE run! The regulation set-point is lower than the end-of-cycle battery voltage. This is the way I wanted it.


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## kakster (Oct 27, 2004)

In that case... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/popcorn.gif


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## turbodog (Oct 27, 2004)

[ QUOTE ]
*js said:*
[ QUOTE ]
*turbodog said:*
1) Good work.

2) I think you used too many cells. At 6.8 volts, each cell is down to .75 volts or so. Unless you used matched cells, at least 1 cell is certainly depleted by then and on it's way to reversing. 

[/ QUOTE ]

The warning flashes start at .92 volts/cell, and users are STRONGLY advised to turn off the M6 very shortly after getting the warning flashes. This is why the M6-R stays in regulation over the ENTIRE run! The regulation set-point is lower than the end-of-cycle battery voltage. This is the way I wanted it. 

[/ QUOTE ]

Forgot about the warning. Yes, you're right. Multi cell packs are a pain though. If you build more and WANT to use matched cells I will match them for YOU for no charge. PM me.


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## rocketmaninphx (Oct 27, 2004)

I would be interested


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## brightnorm (Oct 27, 2004)

This is terrific! There has been much talk over the years about a rechargeable M6 but now it's a reality, and regulated to boot. Pretty [email protected] impressive!

Brightnorm


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## js (Oct 27, 2004)

turbodog,

Thanks very much. I'll send you a PM at some point.


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## pyro (Oct 27, 2004)

*Re: The SF M6-R: a regulated rechargeable SF M6 (H*

great!
i was also thinking about using 9 2/3A battery and LVR,
but i did not try it bacause i have no M6 and i had in mind that the LVR is much bigger and that there is no space to put it.
You solved that very nice!

I would add a spacer or some thin plate over the LVR to 
protect it when the light gets dropped.


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## js (Oct 27, 2004)

*Re: The SF M6-R: a regulated rechargeable SF M6 (H*

[ QUOTE ]
*pyro said:*
great!
i was also thinking about using 9 2/3A battery and LVR,
but i did not try it bacause i have no M6 and i had in mind that the LVR is much bigger and that there is no space to put it.
You solved that very nice!

I would add a spacer or some thin plate over the LVR to 
protect it when the light gets dropped. 

[/ QUOTE ]

pyro,

If you'll notice in the picutres above, the LVR is attached face down to the battery pack, and the backside of the board has only wires on it. It is supported along the sides where it mates with the batteries by strips of mil spec silicone rubber, which keeps the components from touching the batteries. Thus, it is well protected as it is, and I have very little space for any sort of extra covering over the LVR beyond the kapton tape and shrink wrap. I suspect it would weather a drop just fine, although that's obviously never a good thing, and for combat or military purposes, the MB20 with SF123A's would be the better option.

Another thing, too, which I may tweak if I can, is that the soft-start feature of the LVR3I is very noticeable. Sometimes it can be a full second before the light reaches full brightness. While this is great for filament longevity, it's terrible for signaling in morse code or for surprise blinding someone. I will be asking Willie if he can reduce the time constant on the soft-start. In any case, this is one of the things to be perfected via the testing brightnorm will be doing for me. I guess I'd call it proto-type testing.

On another note, if anyone is interested in field testing specifically, please say so--again, assuming that there is enough interest to warrant a build run. Looks like that will be the case, from these initial posts, but we'll see.


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## Kiu (Oct 27, 2004)

*Re: The SF M6-R: a regulated rechargeable SF M6 (H*

Jim

Excellent work!! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wow.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/happy14.gif
It seems you put many effort on it.


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## Sakugenken (Oct 27, 2004)

*Re: The SF M6-R: a regulated rechargeable SF M6 (H*

I am also very interested in this.


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## Hoghead (Oct 27, 2004)

*Re: The SF M6-R: a regulated rechargeable SF M6 (H*

I'm interested too.


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## Glo_in_dark (Oct 27, 2004)

*Re: The SF M6-R: a regulated rechargeable SF M6 (H*

Count me in. I've wanted an M6 since it's conception - just could not justify the operational cost when used daily. WOW!!
Michael


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## js (Oct 27, 2004)

*Re: The SF M6-R: a regulated rechargeable SF M6 (H*

OK. Six people so far are interested. That's a good start.

As for lusting after an M6, I can totally relate. I've also wanted one since I learned about it, but it never would have flown with my wife. This way, I got to tell her that it was an _investment_ and that I would at least break even on the project. Now I own an M6. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/buttrock.gif It's a beauty of a light. The only thing that takes a bit of getting used to is the tail cap switch combined with the larger o.d. of the body. At first it hurt my hand to hold the switch down for any length of time, but with use I guess I developed the right muscles.


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## Xrunner (Oct 27, 2004)

*Re: The SF M6-R: a regulated rechargeable SF M6 (H*

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbsup.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/popcorn.gif

-Mike


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## pyro (Oct 27, 2004)

*Re: The SF M6-R: a regulated rechargeable SF M6 (H*

[ QUOTE ]
*js said:*

Thus, it is well protected as it is



[/ QUOTE ]
ah, you are right.

Did i mention that i am interested? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Now i have to look for a M6 /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/broke.gif

btw, the M3 LOLA MN15 runs at ~7V, 
Probably this can be used as LOLA for the M6-R too.


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## js (Oct 27, 2004)

*Re: The SF M6-R: a regulated rechargeable SF M6 (H*

pyro,

Indeed! MN15, eh? Yeah, thanks for the suggestion. I have been so focused on the HOLA and support hardware that I haven't even started to look into the M6-R LOLA situation. Good to know. Also, what about the N2? What voltage does that want? Maybe that's a possibility.


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## Kiessling (Oct 27, 2004)

*Re: The SF M6-R: a regulated rechargeable SF M6 (H*

WoW !!!! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbsup.gif
Two great innovations for the King of all lights!
Great work js! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/bowdown.gif

Unfortunately I am out since it's rechargeable ...

bernhard


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## js (Oct 27, 2004)

*Re: The SF M6-R: a regulated rechargeable SF M6 (H*

[ QUOTE ]
*Kiessling said:*
WoW !!!! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbsup.gif
Two great innovations for the King of all lights!
Great work js! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/bowdown.gif

Unfortunately I am out since it's rechargeable ...

bernhard 

[/ QUOTE ]

Bernhard,

Why are you out? Because it's rechargeable? What do you mean? If you mean that you personally always steer clear of rechargeables, well then, OK, and that's too bad, because I was hoping you would want to be a field tester.

BUT, if you mean that you are out because the charger will not work in Germany, then, *NO* you are NOT out! All I need to do is get a power supply designed to turn your line voltage into 18VDC--not hard, and I'm sure that I can get Frame57 to find one for me. Or there's even the possibility of finding a universal supply that can work on all of the different line voltages out there.

So, which is it? Because I'm not about to let down CPFers on the other side of the ocean from me--I didn't for the TigerLight Upgrades and I won't for the M6-R.

Let me know.


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## pyro (Oct 27, 2004)

*Re: The SF M6-R: a regulated rechargeable SF M6*

I don´t have a N2, but that should be very similar,
with better beam shape. 

@Kiessling: you donßt have to recharge the pack, 
throw it away after enjoying the full regulated runtime /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

It is impressive that the rechargeable version is able to produce almost
the same runtime as with primary cells, and even brighter when the cr123 
begin to loose their initial power.
what is the "real" runtime with MN21 on lithiums, not the 20 minutes from surefire?

another (stupid?) thought: what about using the LVR and 6 123cells in series? 
this should provide about 15 mins regulated runtime or so, right?


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## js (Oct 27, 2004)

*Re: The SF M6-R: a regulated rechargeable SF M6*

pyro,

According to many reports, the "20 minute" advertised runtime of the SF M6 is--*ahem*--rather optimistic. Plus, as mentioned, on 123's the brightness declines somewhat over the runtime, although as far as voltage vs. time curves go, they're pretty good.

So, the NiMH's actually more or less beat the Lithium 123's. hehe. It's due to the voltage drops in the lithium batteries from the internal resistance--the higher the current the worse the power loss in the cells. At 2.5 amps, you reach the point where so much power is lost that the NiMH chemistry becomes competitive. Yes, it's only 1.2 volts per cell, but high-rate NiMH batteries will hold that voltage under load.


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## Kiessling (Oct 27, 2004)

*Re: The SF M6-R: a regulated rechargeable SF M6*

pyro /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crackup.gif

js .... it is because I really dislike rechargeables for numerous reasons. I won't go into this in order to maintain the integrity of your wonderful thread /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif.
I really appreciate your work and efforts, and am flattered that you'd thought of me for beta-testing /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif.
Just in case you won't find a tester in good old Europe I will of course do any test you like on the improved King of all Lights, but I really don't think this will be a problem /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif.

BTW ... pyro's thought about 6x123 and the LVR is really intriguing! Is this possible? I'd be *very* interested in such a mod /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif !

bernhard


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## js (Oct 27, 2004)

*Re: The SF M6-R: a regulated rechargeable SF M6*

OK Bernhard, no problem, and thanks for your discretion /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbsup.gif


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## Ginseng (Oct 27, 2004)

*Re: The SF M6-R: a regulated rechargeable SF M6 (H*

Nice work Jim. I've been waiting to see this hit the light of day and I suspect it'll be a great success. Congratulations on some very ingenious engineering.

Wilkey
_skulking back to his bulbs and batteries_


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## Catdaddy (Oct 27, 2004)

*Re: The SF M6-R: a regulated rechargeable SF M6 (H*

I am in for one!


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## Catdaddy (Oct 27, 2004)

*Re: The SF M6-R: a regulated rechargeable SF M6 (H*

I would love to field test as well.


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## Prolepsis (Oct 28, 2004)

*Re: The SF M6-R: a regulated rechargeable SF M6 (H*

Hi Jim! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

I have most of your TigerLight mods. Because of your mods, I sold my two M6s. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif

1) I'll keep an eye out for TL charger system. I have a smart charger, but it doesn't make sense to remove the battery/LA each time. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

2) I'm in for sure for your M6 rechargeable system. This just means that I'll have to track down an M6 again. I would love to field test, but I don't have an M6 at the moment, nor do any of my favourite dealers. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon23.gif

In fact, if I can track down two M6s, I'll take two battery packs. For now, put me down for one complete system (charger, battery, Jim fan club card, and so on) for sure!

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/bowdown.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/bowdown.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/bowdown.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/bowdown.gif

Thanks again!
eric


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## js (Oct 28, 2004)

*Re: The SF M6-R: a regulated rechargeable SF M6 (H*

Prolepsis,

If you have a smart charger already, all you need to do is buy a spare TL harness and send it to me--or better yet, I'll buy it for you--and then I can modify it so that you can plug it into your charger. (I assume it has banana plug receptacles).

Also, as I mentioned, instead of buying the whole charging system for the M6-R, all you need is a cable with the Molex micro-fit connector on one end, and two banana plugs on the other ends. Then you can use the smart charger you already own for your M6-R pack--but it needs to be a general type charger and not one made specifically for, say, a StreamLight Ultra Stinger or what-not.

As for field testing, I'd love it if you'd help me. We'll deal with getting you an M6 one way or another. Unless you say otherwise, I'll count you as one of the field testers.

Catdaddy, count yourself in the field testing as well.

On another note, the documentation with the MAX712 recommends providing a power source that is (1.9 volts*#cells+1.5 volts) to be "safe". I don't know what sort of batteries they are talking about, but after doing some testing, I can see that the maximum voltage across the packs during charging is less than 13.5 volts. Add 1.5 volts to that to account for the drop across the transistor and diode, and you get 15 volts. I already have some 15 volt 833 mA supplies, so I will try that in place of the 18 volt source I am currently using. No need to put extra load on the heat sink or transistor. I just need to change out a couple of resistors.

Also, if MAXIM-IC sells printed boards for this chip, that would save me a *LOT* of labor and would bring the cost down significantly. I'm looking into it today.


----------



## Prolepsis (Oct 28, 2004)

*Re: The SF M6-R: a regulated rechargeable SF M6 (H*

Awesome, thanks Jim! I can also test your charger system, as one can never have too many chargers. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif

I suspect that once word gets out about your project, more people will be interested. Why?
- easy to swap between the battery pack and a fully loaded 6x123 M6 cartridge - you can keep the spare 6x123 battery set nearby, and swap in the field quickly, if need be
- *regulated*
- warning flashes for when the battery needs to be recharged
- much cheaper to run in the long run

The only feedback I have at the moment is with regards to the soft-start feature of the LVR3I, though you already mentioned that you're seeing if you can reduce the soft-start time.

Sending you a PM with some extra details.

Thanks again,
eric


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## js (Oct 28, 2004)

*Re: The SF M6-R: a regulated rechargeable SF M6 (H*

Prolepsis,

I hope you're right about more people becomming interested once the word gets out, but even so, right now there is enough interest for me to start the whole process rolling. There will definitely be a build run (assuming I remain alive and capable during the next few months).

I will reply to your PM tomorrow, as I have to get off line for now, but thanks for your encouraging words.

BTW, I'm getting a quote from MAXIM on the boards, but even if that doesn't work out, I've found some really nice proto-type boards with three hole and buss copper-plated soldering pads to make the job of making the circuit easier. Right now, my board has only plated (one side only) holes. (i.e. single hole solder pads). This is a bit annoying to work with, as far as I'm concerned. More tomorrow . . .


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## Prolepsis (Oct 28, 2004)

*Re: The SF M6-R: a regulated rechargeable SF M6 (H*

Thanks Jim.

Absolutely no worries or rush with regards to my PM. My job is to stay out of your way so you can work on this project. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

I can't wait to EDC an M6. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif


----------



## will7079 (Oct 28, 2004)

*Re: The SF M6-R: a regulated rechargeable SF M6 (H*

I will be in for one as well.

Will


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## J_Oei (Oct 28, 2004)

*Re: The SF M6-R: a regulated rechargeable SF M6 (H*

I'm in. I already have the TL85 and a stock M6.
I also have my own Triton charger.

Let me know.

(Also, please include the fan club card...) /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif


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## js (Oct 29, 2004)

*Re: The SF M6-R: a regulated rechargeable SF M6 (H*

I performed the resistor swap-out and tested the charging setup with the same wallwarts I use for the Tiger85 harness mods and it was a disaster! When they say "15VDC at 833 mA" they are . . . well . . . lying. First of all there is a significant AC ripple. Second, even the PEAK of the ripple is lower than 15 volts at 800 mA, and third, even the RMS voltage at 550 mA is less than 15 volts. So, the short of it is that this $5 wallwart will NOT work as a supply for the charging circuit.

When I tested it, it failed to stop fast charging and I finally had to disconnect the battery pack to prevent damage. So next, I decided that maybe it was because the pack had been fully charged just the day before, so I discharged it, and then started it charging with the M6-R charger + 15VDC wallwart. An hour and a half later it had prematurely ended the fast-charge. Oh well, the applications notes _specifically_ warn you about these problems if the MAX712 is not adequately powered, AND they discuss the nominal ratings and ripple of wallwarts, and what the _real_ output is like. So I was warned. Next I reconnected the 18VDC regulated supply and finished the fast-charge cycle. The circuit then worked flawlessly and terminated fast charge well before the pack was too warm.

But I still believe that the 18VDC regulated linear supply which I am currently using is _too much_ of an overvoltage, so I am thinking of using a variable high-quality bench supply to see if a TRUE 15VDC source would be adequate, because I found a 15VDC switching power supply for $15. (The 18VDC regulated linear supply I am using right now is $10--but it weighs something on the order of 2 or 3 pounds, which really adds to the freight charges).

But even with the extra over-voltage the transistor junction temperature is well below it's maximum (150C) and I do like this monster linear supply--plus it's cheap.

I haven't done any more work on brightnorms M6-R pack, but I plan on finishing it this weekend, along with a couple other tasks on my priority list.

Oh, and a word on the zero delta-V MAX712 vs. the negative delta-V MAX713: the 712 *only* charges NiMH, while the 713 can do both NiMH and NiCd. However, the circuitry of the 712 keeps the peak cell temperature of the battery pack cooler than the 713 does, and by a significant margin. It works quite well, actually, even when charging a pack that is already pretty well at full charge. Some chargers will seriously overheat a battery pack in this state--I'm thinking of my Hitec CG-340 specifically, whose instructions warn the user against trying to charge a full pack.

So this is a very nice feature, and along with the transition to trickle charge after fast charge, means that you can always keep your pack nicely topped up, even on a daily basis if you wish.


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## js (Oct 29, 2004)

*Re: The SF M6-R: a regulated rechargeable SF M6 (H*

[ QUOTE ]
*Ginseng said:*
Nice work Jim. I've been waiting to see this hit the light of day and I suspect it'll be a great success. Congratulations on some very ingenious engineering.

Wilkey
_skulking back to his bulbs and batteries_ 

[/ QUOTE ]

Wilkey,

I just noticed the "skulking" bit. What's up with the skulking? Ixnay on the Ulking-skay! The creator of the preeminent *AURORA* should never deign to skulk: he should walk haughtily into a room and slap a few people here and there with a leather glove (just for good measure) and look distantly off into space. He is the true ubermensch, condescending to accept the adulation of flashaholics everywhere and always. (Of course, it is to be hoped that the JWX will be an even greater acheivement--well we can dream can't we? hehe.)


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## js (Oct 30, 2004)

*Re: The SF M6-R: a regulated rechargeable SF M6 (H*

OK. So I now have all four field tester slots filled:

1. brightnorm.
2. Prolepsis.
3. Catdaddy.
4. pyro.

Thanks guys! It will probably be a little while (2-3 weeks) before I start in on making your M6-R stuff, but it could be sooner. No need to PayPal yet or anthing--I'm still not even sure how much everything will cost, and how long it will take me to make stuff up, and so on. I'll keep everyone updated via this thread.

I'll be looking into getting etched/printed circuit boards made up, but I'm a _little_ reluctant to go this route because it means I can't really modify the circuit at a later date, and also because if I buy extra of these kind of boards they are no good to me for anything but this, but if I buy extra of the proto-type boards, I could use them for any number of other things.

As for power supplies, I have found a 19VDC switching supply which will work on *ALL* the line voltages world-wide (AFAIK, anyway). It is $20 instead of $10 for the regulated linear 18VDC supply; BUT it is also only .8 lbs, whereas the other one is a monster--close to 3 lbs, and the shipping costs two ways REALLY add up. So it shouldn't raise the price of the finished charger too much at all.

OK. That's the daily update. Plus, I'll be working hard on brightnorm's M6-R this weekend and next week. I've got other stuff to do as well, but I am hopeful that I can mail out his stuff early to mid-week.


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## Ginseng (Oct 30, 2004)

*Re: The SF M6-R: a regulated rechargeable SF M6 (H*

Thanks for the back slap Jim. BTW, I'm still in awe of this work even though we discussed it several times prior to your post. This project and the engineering you put into all of your projects surely qualifies you for a permanent spot in the modding pantheon.

Keep up the killer work!

Wilkey


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## Josey (Oct 30, 2004)

*Re: The SF M6-R: a regulated rechargeable SF M6 (H*

Hey Jim:

I'm a definite maybe, but only because your TL 11 is so good I'm reluctant to spend so much on the M6.

Congratulations on another great project.

Josey


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## PhotonFanatic (Oct 30, 2004)

*Re: The SF M6-R: a regulated rechargeable SF M6 (H*

deleted


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## paulr (Oct 31, 2004)

*Re: The SF M6-R: a regulated rechargeable SF M6 (H*

Wow, just saw this thread. Incredible!! I've been interested in a TL85 for a while, but the M6R would really be going first class...


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## Floating Spots (Oct 31, 2004)

*Re: The SF M6-R: a regulated rechargeable SF M6 (H*

Here is a cheap universal power supply possibility:
http://www.mpja.com/productview.asp?product=15527+PS
Its a current/size overkill, but the price is $11 with quantity ten+.


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## js (Nov 1, 2004)

*Re: The SF M6-R: a regulated rechargeable SF M6 (H*

[ QUOTE ]
*Floating Spots said:*
Here is a cheap universal power supply possibility:
http://www.mpja.com/productview.asp?product=15527+PS
Its a current/size overkill, but the price is $11 with quantity ten+. 

[/ QUOTE ]

Floating Spots, this is just the ticket! Strange, because mpja is where I end up getting all my powersupplies, and is where I am getting the 18VDC regulated linear supply. I get their catalog, too, but for some reason, many of their products are hidding out in one place, but not in the others (they also have a www.powersupplydepot.com website, as well as the mpja.com, and the catalog). For example, the 18VDC supply I am using is not in the catalog, and the 12VDC supply I want to use for the TL fast charger is in the catalog, but not on the website unless you do a search, or know the product number. Odd.

Anyway, *this is perfect*! Thank you so much. Exactly what I was looking for. Beautiful.

Ginseng,

Thanks for the thumbs up on this project. Very high praise comming from you. I was actually working on this project when you posted your philosophical musings channel 2: output thread, and I knew EXACTLY what you were talking about. Before the M6-R idea came along, I had been planning on making an Aurora class light but this project seemed so much more enticing, for the very reasons you brought up in that thread. Nicely articulated as usual, Wilkey, and spot on.

OK. brightnorms M6-R pack got it's first trickle charge last night, and I will continue working on it tonight. It should be ready soon, baring any unforseen complications.

Thanks to all who have commented or expressed interest. I appreciate it.


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## Klaus (Nov 1, 2004)

*Re: The SF M6-R: a regulated rechargeable SF M6 (H*

Great project - but whats the discharge rate on those poor little 1100ma 2/3As - I guess pretty close to the max 3.3A these cells are specified for AFAIK.

A rechargeable M6 is way kewl and having Willie Hunt help you on it certainly won´t hurt /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Klaus


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## js (Nov 1, 2004)

*Re: The SF M6-R: a regulated rechargeable SF M6 (H*

[ QUOTE ]
*Klaus said:*
Great project - but whats the discharge rate on those poor little 1100ma 2/3As - I guess pretty close to the max 3.3A these cells are specified for AFAIK.

A rechargeable M6 is way kewl and having Willie Hunt help you on it certainly won´t hurt /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Klaus 

[/ QUOTE ]

Klaus,

You don't know me very well, do you! You must be joking! Here's a discharge graph of the GP1100 2/3A's which I am using at currents of 15 and *30* amps continuous! At 5 amps, these little power houses are idleing. They have an internal resistance of only 4 mOhms and are the current champions in their size. They are RC community batteries.

As I mentioned above, I am using them for their high _capacity_ and shorter length, and not so much because I need to draw 20 amps from them, but, the fact is that the *instantaneous* current demands of the LVR3I are pretty severe, and the high current capability of these cells serves the M6-R battery packs very well, I think.

Anyway, I NEVER run batteries at their current limit--not my style, although there's absolutely nothing wrong with it, of course.


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## rick258 (Nov 1, 2004)

*Re: The SF M6-R: a regulated rechargeable SF M6 (H*

I'm interested also. Good excuse to buy M6. Rick


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## js (Nov 4, 2004)

*Re: The SF M6-R: a regulated rechargeable SF M6 (H*

OK. I will be completing BN's pack tonight, I hope. It passed it's break-in cycling with flying colors. I've been very impressed with how well the GP1100's hold their voltage--nice cells.

As soon as we've had a chance to play with the newer LVR settings on this pack, we can decide whether or not to tweak them, and how much. At that point, I will be able to take payment from the field testers and order their LVR's and batteries and charger supplies (if applicable).

Also, I will continue to consider changes to the charging circuit and hardware. I will definitely be using a smaller box and better heat-sink: the one I am using now is too long and narrow and should be oriented vertically--it's still adequate as it is, but it is far from optimal. I may also modify the circuit to reduce the trickle charge current after the completion of fast-charing. I will also almost certainly be using www.expresspcb.com to make up printed circuit boards for me. 20 boards of the size I need would cost about $10 per board. The proto-boards I would alternately use cost $5 and would require _at least_ an hour and probably two to wire up. So the PCB route would definitely reduce the price of the chargers. Plus, it's a nice touch to have a professional looking board.


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## K-T (Nov 4, 2004)

*Re: The SF M6-R: a regulated rechargeable SF M6 (H*

I am interested in the rechargeable pack but don't need a charger. Short ignition time would be nice though. An M6 is available.

Does the bulb make some humming/buzzing noise while being driven by the LVR? I have one of Willie's LVR's and the 20W bulb I drive with it does make an interesting humming noise.


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## naromtap (Nov 4, 2004)

*Re: The SF M6-R: a regulated rechargeable SF M6 (H*

Got my eye on this thread!


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## js (Nov 4, 2004)

*Re: The SF M6-R: a regulated rechargeable SF M6 (H*

K-T,

No problem on buying just the pack and connector (so that you can plug into your existing charger). But if by "short ignition time" you mean that you want me to open up a B/S/T thread soon, there's not much chance of that! Before I put hundreds or even thousands of dollars of stuff out there I want to make sure that there are no problems or issues. This is why I do a field test, and I have certainly been glad of it in the past. The TL field testing revealed the unsuitability of the SL-35X LA and a problem with my ring-potting method (which I then fixed before the build run).

Right now I am in the "beta testing" phase. brightnorm will be testing an M6-R pack and charger very soon. When he has had a chance to give me some feedback, I will decide on what warning flashes level to choose for the LVR's for the other three field testers. I will then have to make up their packs and chargers (for those that don't already have a charger) and ship them out. Then the field-testing phase will being and will probably last at least a month and probably longer.

Based on what I've learned from the field testing, I will then set things up for the opening of a B/S/T signup thread. People will sign up; I will order supplies; I will wait for them to get to me; I will make up the orders and ship them out.

I'm guessing that for those who are not field testers, it will be into January 2005 before they receive their M6-R stuff. And this is just a guess. It all depends on how smoothly things go with the field testing.

Sorry if this is bad news, but if I want to stand behind what I sell (I do) then I must take steps to reduce my risks and liabilities. If for some reason the whole thing goes South during the field testing, I do not have to refund 20 people's money.

Oh, and that reminds me: did I mention that field testers assume _some_ amount of the risk along with me?

As for the buzzing of the LVR, yes, it does have a quiet but discernable buzzing or humming to it due to the switching on and off of the FET.


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## js (Nov 4, 2004)

*Re: The SF M6-R: a regulated rechargeable SF M6 (H*

[ QUOTE ]
*naromtap said:*
Got my eye on this thread! 

[/ QUOTE ]

Hey there, naromtap! I was wondering when you would post here. Perhaps now you will not need to buy a Tiger85? Or maybe you will, just to step up in brightness? Or maybe both? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif Or maybe neither? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif LOL! Have you and Paul_DW had any more flashlight adventures?


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## flashfan (Nov 5, 2004)

*Re: The SF M6-R: a regulated rechargeable SF M6 (H*

WOW! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ooo.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/clap.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/popcorn.gif


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## K-T (Nov 5, 2004)

*Re: The SF M6-R: a regulated rechargeable SF M6 (H*

[ QUOTE ]
*js said:*
K-T,

No problem on buying just the pack and connector (so that you can plug into your existing charger). But if by "short ignition time" you mean that you want me to open up a B/S/T thread soon, there's not much chance of that! ... 

[/ QUOTE ]

No, sorry for not making my point clear - I was refering to the softstart function and reducing it to a very short time, not trying to press you into getting the set rolling. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif


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## Klaus (Nov 5, 2004)

*Re: The SF M6-R: a regulated rechargeable SF M6 (H*

[ QUOTE ]
*js said:*
Klaus,

You don't know me very well, do you! You must be joking! 

[/ QUOTE ]

Jim,

yes I really don´t know you very well and no - I´m not joking /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif

The only 1100ma GP 2/3A cells I can find are the GP110AFH cells and those are recommended upto 3300ma discharge - I´m not saying they can´t be discharged at a higher rate or that this hasn´t been done before - if you are using different cells I´ll keep my big mouth shut now /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

GP 1100ma 2/3A Datasheet 

Klaus


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## PeterB (Nov 5, 2004)

*Re: The SF M6-R: a regulated rechargeable SF M6 (H*

These guys are for 15A continous discharge:
G110AFHR 

This type of NiMH cell is often used for high drain RC-model applications.


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## js (Nov 5, 2004)

*Re: The SF M6-R: a regulated rechargeable SF M6 (H*

[ QUOTE ]
*PeterB said:*
These guys are for 15A continous discharge:
G110AFHR 

This type of NiMH cell is often used for high drain RC-model applications. 

[/ QUOTE ]

These are the ones. Not the ones you found. I can see your confusion, though! Not very much difference in the name, is there?

As for the soft-start, I'll be looking into reducing the time constant. I need to send Willie an email.


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## js (Nov 5, 2004)

*Re: The SF M6-R: a regulated rechargeable SF M6 (H*

Good news!

The soft-start feature can indeed be set to different activation speeds: very fast, somewhat fast, or really slow. I'm not sure what I have right now (I didn't know there were choices!), but I've asked Willie what he sent me last time and, obviously, I will get the "very fast" setting on the next LVR I order.


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## Prolepsis (Nov 6, 2004)

*Re: The SF M6-R: a regulated rechargeable SF M6 (H*

"Very fast" sounds great--thanks Jim. I think most people (correct me if I'm wrong?) want a startup that is as fast as possible. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif After all, the M6 with 123s doesn't even have a soft-start feature.


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## pyro (Nov 6, 2004)

*Re: The SF M6-R: a regulated rechargeable SF M6 (H*

No, i personally dont care if it takes 
one or two seconds to get full brightness.
in fact, i´d prefer a longer lasting bulb.

That makes me thinking about bulb life in general
on the M6-R.
It drives the bulb alwas as hard as the standard M6
does with fresh batteries, but the bulb doesn´t get the voltage spikes when starting.
Am i correct when i think it prolongs bulb life?


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## K-T (Nov 7, 2004)

*Re: The SF M6-R: a regulated rechargeable SF M6 (H*

Yup, that's what I think, too. No spikes should prolong the lifetime as most of the time the filament burns/breaks at the beginning of useage when voltage is still high. 

Willie had a low-battery indicator build into my LVR that would start flashing the light when the batteries where almost depleted. I found that indicator to be very useful - why not the same in the M6-R mod?


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## flashworm (Nov 8, 2004)

*Re: The SF M6-R: a regulated rechargeable SF M6 (H*

Nice job again jim, will definitely be in for one of ur great battery mods.


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## js (Nov 8, 2004)

*Re: The SF M6-R: a regulated rechargeable SF M6 (H*

[ QUOTE ]
*K-T said:*
Yup, that's what I think, too. No spikes should prolong the lifetime as most of the time the filament burns/breaks at the beginning of useage when voltage is still high. 

Willie had a low-battery indicator build into my LVR that would start flashing the light when the batteries where almost depleted. I found that indicator to be very useful - why not the same in the M6-R mod? 

[/ QUOTE ]

K-T, the M6-R *does* have the low-battery flashes!

Willie got back to me with some answers: the very fast setting is 60 ms: i.e. less than a tenth of a second! Now that's what I'm talking about. What I have in my current LVR's is about 1000 ms (i.e. 1 second)!

As for prolonging the life, absolutely: the precisely regulated voltage, together with a current-limited soft start means a statistically longer bulb-life. IIRC, Willie told me he has gotten 50-100 hours on some of his MN21's driven at 6.8 volts. (!)

OK. The daily update: I *almost* finished brightnorms M6-R pack last night, but not quite. I'll finish this evening and run some tests (including checking out the MN20 LOLA at 6.8 volts). Until I do something three or four times, it always takes me longer than I think it will.

Keep in mind, everyone, that we could have the soft-start setting be something that each person specifies with his or her order, although I think that 60 ms is going to be just right, and is what Willie recommends with the MN21. Still, something to think about.


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## naromtap (Nov 8, 2004)

*Re: The SF M6-R: a regulated rechargeable SF M6 (H*

[ QUOTE ]
*js said:*
[ QUOTE ]
*naromtap said:*
Got my eye on this thread! 

[/ QUOTE ]

Hey there, naromtap! I was wondering when you would post here. Perhaps now you will not need to buy a Tiger85? Or maybe you will, just to step up in brightness? Or maybe both? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif Or maybe neither? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif LOL! Have you and Paul_DW had any more flashlight adventures? 

[/ QUOTE ]

Hi Jim, no adventures of late with PaulDW as I've had lots on my plate, just moved, had fire, moving again soon etc I don't have net access at mo so only check in occasionally but once I'm settled I will work out what I need/want as far as lights go - too much going on to justify more lights right now. I'm sure I'll have something of you tho.


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## js (Nov 9, 2004)

*Re: The SF M6-R: a regulated rechargeable SF M6 (H*

I completed BN's pack last night and did a first test run. Everything went very well, but I think the level for the warning flashes is set too low: very shortly after I got the warning flashes I also got dimming, which means that the voltage of the pack dropped below the setpoint voltage (6.8 volts). Even so, after turn off the voltage of the pack was well above 10 volts, so discharging to the point of dimming is probably not a big deal, although it's probably not something you'd want to do every time. I will have the warning flashes set at a higher voltage--probably 1.0 v/cell or a little less--and see how that works out.

Today I will try the MN20 LOLA at 6.8 volts and maybe do another runtime test (maybe not) and then probably pack things up for shipment to BN tomorrow or Thursday.

It was nice to have an operational M6-R again. Everytime I use that light I am struck by the nearly perfect, artifact free beam. She's a beauty.


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## js (Nov 10, 2004)

*Re: The SF M6-R: a regulated rechargeable SF M6 (H*

As promised, I did a runtime test last night, and got a heart-warming 19 and 1/2 minutes! And this was to the warning flashes plus 5 or 10 seconds, and not to the point of dimming, so it's possible that I might have gotten 20 minutes to dimming.

Now, unfortunately, I had a disaster with the MN20 LOLA experiment. My second disaster with this millenium turbo head, The first disaster was when I did my first runtime test with the M6-R pack. An area of the reflector coating actually melted and went from OP to flat. I was worried that this was due to the fresh-battery voltage being maintained over the entire 19 minutes, and that it was my fault, but when I asked Willie Hunt about this, he insisted that that wouldn't make one bit of difference, and even went so far as to say that even if you increased the power of the lamp in the millenium turbo head by 30 or 50 percent, that nothing should melt and that there should be no problem. So the upshot was that he told me it would certainly be warranteed. However, I didn't return it because functionally it was every bit as good as new, and I still had stuff I needed to do with it for the rechargeable M6 project.

So back to the MN20 LOLA. Last night I threw in the battery holder with fresh 123's and the MN20 and turned it on to get a baseline brightness level for the LOLA. It was nice and white and of the proper brightness, but just as I was about to turn it off, I noticed that the output fell off a little. I figured it was the batteries loosing their higher, initial voltage. So I put in the rechargeable pack and turned it on. The light output was significantly dimmer--maybe 20 to 30 percent lower--and the color was a little yellowy and unappealing. "Oh, well, that's what I expected," I thought. Then "PFFT--PLINK!". The lamp exploded causing the usual death and destruction to the reflector and lens. Very depressing. I'm pretty certain that there was some defect in the glass envelope of the lamp and that the gas leaked out and oxygen leaked in. I've seen this once before, and in both cases, THE FILAMENT REMAINED INTACT. Very unusual occurence. Usually blowing the lamp means blowing the filament, and also possibly the glass envelope as well.

So the question still remains regarding how underdriven the MN20 is at 6.8 volts. The output I saw could very possibly have been mostly due to the loss of gas pressure and infiltration of oxygen. We shall see.

And now I have the problem of whether or not SureFire will warrantee this head, even though it melted before it had the exploding lamp occurence. I'll spell it all out to the CS rep and see what he or she can do for me. It was a brand spanking new MN20 and it should NOT have blown up and ruined my turbo head. I was *NOT* over-driving it.

In any case, I will be sending out BN's M6-R stuff tomorrow, and maybe he will be able to check out LOLA options. Personally I think the M3T HOLA is going to be the M6-R LOLA of choice.


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## brightnorm (Nov 10, 2004)

*Re: The SF M6-R: a regulated rechargeable SF M6 (H*

Jim,

I had a similar blowup with an N2 in a SRTH.

I prefer to only test the HOLA; I don't want to run my Mercedes with a Beetle engine (poor analogy but you get the idea)


Brightnorm


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## js (Nov 11, 2004)

*Re: The SF M6-R: a regulated rechargeable SF M6 (H*

BN,

I remember! It's a real drag, isn't it? I share your sentiments regarding the LOLA in the M6, but that's because I'm a real bright light junkie. Others, however, are saner and more balanced and overall, I think it is important to identify a good LOLA for the M6-R: it could come in useful in many situations, especially for those lucky people who own TWO M6's.

Post office is closed today. I didn't find this out until I went there with your package and found the door locked. Oh well. Tomorrow.


----------



## brightnorm (Nov 11, 2004)

*Re: The SF M6-R: a regulated rechargeable SF M6 (H*

Jim,

I don't have a LOLA; I hope your other testers do.

BN


----------



## js (Nov 12, 2004)

*Re: The SF M6-R: a regulated rechargeable SF M6 (H*

Not a problem, BN. I'm cool with that. The M6-R pack is meant to be specifically for the HOLA. If I can identify a good LOLA so much the better, but my main focus is the HOLA, so you're good to go. No need to buy an MN20 LOLA or feel bad about not having one.


----------



## CroMAGnet (Nov 12, 2004)

*Re: The SF M6-R: a regulated rechargeable SF M6 (H*

Just found this thread. Not sure how I missed it. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thinking.gif

How do you think the M6-R will compare to your awesome Tiger11 or 85 mods? I would like to compare them side by side.


----------



## js (Nov 12, 2004)

*Re: The SF M6-R: a regulated rechargeable SF M6 (H*

CromagNet,

I was wondering when someone was going to ask this question!

Well, first of all, one can compare a great many things, but if you mean in terms of light output, then the M6 falls between the Tiger11 and Tiger85, but has a more perfect beam than either. It also has a switch on the very tail of the light, which can be found instantly no matter what the rotational position of the light (around the long axis, I mean.)

Also, the M6-R is regulated and has a soft-start circuit, and the Tiger11 and 85 do not.

It all boils down to personal considerations, in my opinion. I don't think you can say categorically that one is better than the others. If this sounds like I'm trying to avoid the question, well, I sort of am, and I'm also really not.

Personally, I like owning all three ! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/evilgrin07.gif hehe. Just last month the Tiger11 was my favorite. But lately, the M6-R has been my favorite--although I no loner have a head for it. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif


----------



## Prolepsis (Nov 12, 2004)

*Re: The SF M6-R: a regulated rechargeable SF M6 (H*

I should still have some M6 LOLAs. My M6 is being shipped enroute to me now. When I start my field testing (after Brightnorm is finished his alpha/beta testing), I can try the M3T HOLA and the M6 LOLA--don't mind sacrificing one or two in the name of testing.

CromagNet: Jim covered most of it. The M6 is also lighter than the TigerLight--I'll post the weight of all combinations when I start field testing the M6-R. For me, weight matters.

The T85 outhrows the M6, but at that range, the difference doesn't matter (to me, anyhow). Also, in a ceiling bounce test, the T85 beats the M6's output by a touch. I initially sold my M6 after I got the T85, but now I'm buying an M6 again for the M6-R. Help! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif


----------



## udaman (Nov 12, 2004)

[ QUOTE ]
*js said:*
*THE SHORT VERSION* ("just the facts, please")



*SOME INTRODUCTORY RAMBLING*


*THE SF M6-R: A RECHARGEABLE M6*

.... Fortunately or unfortunately, the ONLY close match was with the M6, due to the complicated battery holder which introduced enough extra length so that three 2/3A's or two 4/5A's would more than fit in the length of the MB20, which holds 2 123's along it's length in a triple stack.

Now, of course, this is heretical, right? NiMH batteries? What's wrong with you, Jim, don't you know that Li-Ion are the best choice for a rechargeable M6?

Well, actually, no, I don't know that. udaman once accused us hotwire guys of failing to "think outside the box" because we weren't using Lithium chemistry batteries. I think that on CPF that "the box" _*IS*_ Lithium chemistry. And this is understandable. Lithium batteries are pretty hard to beat in most ways, and have the highest energy densities of any battery chemistry currently in existence. Even so, the one downfall of currently available Li-Ion batteries is that they have high internal resistance and are not good at delivering high currents. First of all, they lose capacity and fail to deliver what they are nominally rated for, and second, they drop voltage due to their internal resistance, and third, they do not have good cycle life expectancy when run at these current rates. And, boy, does the M6 HOLA draw some current! Near 5 amps. And I'm not even getting into any safety issues of Lithium-ion and Lithium-poly rechargeable batteries.

That said, however, it looks to me as if two 18650 Li-ion batteries in series are a good match with the MN21and should provide 20 minutes of unregulated runtime. As for how many cycles they will last and how they will hold up, I do not know. Also, according to what I've read, these will fit inside a bored-out M4 body, which would give the same 500 lumen output of the M6 HOLA in an M4 configuration. Even so, I would still prefer my regulated, rechargeable NiMH pack in an M6 to these options.

/ / /


Anyway, there it is. A rechargeable M6 is not only not an impossibility, it's now a reality. 

[/ QUOTE ]

Holy Moly, talk about a long post, how do I quote it? ;-)

Hmm, can't say I can match the length of this post, but I'm trying to generate as much boilerplate for 3 other long posts which is a real PITA time consumer.

Hey js; that's cold (oh maybe I should be 'honored' by the jab...err, mention ;-) ) quoting me out of context while I'm away from CPF. Geez, and here I thought you were over that 'issue' ;-). For those who don't follow, I had questioned the reigning Hot Wire Kings as to why there were not more innovative, 'out of the box' uses of Li-Ion batteries for various uses, given the superior energy density, and with 3.7v nominal for one or few cells, provides higher voltages compared to other chemistry allowing for smaller higher output lights of fewer cells. Now js *knows* I favor smaller and thinner sizes, over highest sheer outputs like Ginseng's Aurora project. I think in terms of efficiency, small size, low weight...and most lumens from the smallest, most energy dense power sources. Ginseng, js, and others focus mostly on highest outputs in any light not as big as your $20 100W lantern spotlight. It is simply a matter of focus. Lithium *primary cells* in the form of the long standard CR123 used in SF lights, is the box for CPF, but it's a tired and worn-out box, IMHO. Need some new ideas, fresh approaches using newer technologies, since we CPF 'hackers' are not constrained as SF is, in marketing their lights as the most reliable tactical use application.

And js knows this from PM's between us, and I have to say I'm somewhat disappointed in this M6R. It is almost like the TL was a starting project that led to the fancy high-end (read expensive) M6-R project, as they both rely on basically the same type of power source. It is just in the M6, we add a Willie Hunt regulator to the package (the 'super secret' project js hinted to me a few months ago which I had guessed would be a regulated TL85). 

Counterpoint and I suppose OT for this thread, but CPF member BatteryCharger did a group buy on 3,200lm X990 HID that runs 60+ min. per charge, and only cost $300. This smaller and lower output SFM6-R, costs twice as much as the higher output TL85!!!! If Ginseng's Aurora at $300+ did not interest me, a smaller 500lm M6-R for $400 surely would not either. Heh, js your secret project would not have been hinted at by me, cause it did not interest me /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif.

I ask, what good is a js thread without a JA mention /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif?

The Phoenix project is on hold (according to FNinjaP90), as the SF engineer that js reveres too much, has not been able to supply a regulated circuit for that higher wattage/voltage project. And as far as that 99% efficiency, and regulation stuff; CPF 'Doug S' has his expert opinions on those circuits for incandescents; which he himself worked on/did R&D on. See his comments in this thread
Soft start circuit - please explain... 

I have to say, it almost seems like js has lost his roots and gone on to 'sell-out'. Originally he wanted to provide CPF members with as many lumens as possible for the lowest costs, much like me. These high-end lights are nice for what they are, but are too expensive for most; I'm more interested in trying to provide high lumens for under $100.

If we are looking at a true small form factor and want the big $$$ footprint, then js will only really impress me when he works his butt off with engineers to design...what do we call it? The "JA Special" for CPF members, designed by js, 'thinking out of the box', raising the bar. That would mean an 500 lm or more HID in the smallest form factor yet---yes that means getting a smaller diameter ballast made, like a SF P9 body. Anything more than 10w/500lm HID would generate as much heat as twice that of equivalent halogen bulbs, so you are limited to 10w HID outputs in very small packages. But due to the efficiency of HID, you'd have a far more practical light in a truly small/thin package for longer runtimes.


Why do I call it the "JA Special" (other than like JA, it would be especially thin and gorgeous ;-) )? For one, it cannot be a thick D-cell diameter body, which means Li-Ion rechargeable's are needed. When you are using HID, you don't need special high-current NiMH's because you only need supply 12v at LESS than 1amp.

Another misunderstanding by js is that 18650 could work to provide power source. We'll if you look at the test results from this post on the GB of LG 2400ma 18650 cells, you see they cannot supply 5a loads. There maybe Li-phosphate cells from Valence sometime in the future??? that are supposedly 1600ma, relatively immune to thermal runaway, good for 13A discharges, but for now, the only 18650 cells that can supply those heavy currents without severe voltage drop/loss of capacity are Kinion(sp?) 18650 1100ma cells (I linked to RC thread on these, in the CPF 'need a good AA NiMH battery' thread). http://www.candlepowerforums.com/ubbthreads/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Number=721157

The 2400ma LG 18650's are really only good to 1500ma before they are dead, under a 2C discharge, which is not quite up to the 5+amps needed, now how many volts/amps is that SF HOLA again? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif. Konion 18650's at 1100-1200ma capacity are said to work at 10a continuous current draws!
[ QUOTE ]
*js said:*
The only thing that takes a bit of getting used to is the tail cap switch combined with the larger o.d. of the body. At first it hurt my hand to hold the switch down for any length of time, but with use I guess I developed the right muscles. 

[/ QUOTE ] Now this is where the "JA Special" really stands out, a 10w HID in a SF P9 or similar sized body would fit small hands. I might be only 3-4in shorter than tall bwaites, but I still don't get 'used' to D-cell sized diameter flashlights; I don't have president Clinton's big hands. Think about it js, build a JA Special and it would fit perfectly into JA's thin, sexy, womanly hands and make me happy too! You don't need high-current cells, and can then have longer runtimes to boot. Now you know why on weekends, I'm not really lusting after flashlights at the various local So. Cal. hardware stores. No, there's another reason I hang out there ;-), which goes to answer of Ginseng's comments about the both of us on another thread:
[ QUOTE ]
*Ginseng said:*
/ / /
Jim,
Your advice is always topical and informative. No worries. What is it with you guys and Jessie Alba? Isn't she *jailbait* or something? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Wilkey 

[/ QUOTE ]Wha-chu talkin' 'bout Wilkey? Best you stop watching decade old Flipper reruns with your daughter on the cable channels (you are an old fart /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif ) as Jessica Alba was jailbait when she was a teenager in that TV series. Without question she's *all woman* now-and I must say one of the most womanly of women I have ever laid eyes upon, just signed on as Executive Producer and star of a futuristic drama called "Sonic". Gaaawdess Supreme JA is on a roll with one movie project after another... she's rich now too! http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0004695/ "Into the Blue" a movie that exploits her diving skills comes out early next year, and darned if the diving tested waterproof 'JA special' were ready now it could have been in this movie--- costarring hunky Paul Walker...umm, I mean; costarring blue string-bikini ;-)






Click on the high-res pict to see the upper left-hand (temporary loss of ability to concentrate is expected) text profile of her birthday and penchant for hanging out at local *hardware stores*...man, oh man; my kind of *woman!* Ginseng's daughter isn't the only one who wants some cookies...if made by JA that is ;-).

Why do js and I lust after this Gaawdess, well take a look at the text in this picture of her. She likes Cold Play and *hangs out at hardware stores*(in So. Cal.), does it get any better? Umm, well it could if js will build the "JA Special" and I happen to meet her in a hardware store, and tell her to forget about that lowly M*glite, forget about all those other wimpy lights, my buddy on the East Coast, js has just the light that will impress her. So I whip out this magical light for her, and she's so impressed with the small size and how it fits perfectly into her hand...you did happen to notice how a nice small light would fit into her left hand in each of these high-res photos, yes??? And she would like to buy one of these. Oh the CPF limited run production cost $400 JA Special is but history, but I'm sure js will eagerly make up another, or give his own copy to JA /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif.

What was that Wilkey, huh...??? (udaman & js have clicked on the pictures, the screen filling high-res photo of JA has us both in enchanted, mesmerized, bemused, spellbound, entranced bliss)...Wilkey waves his hands in front of both js's & udaman's eyes to no avail. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crackup.gif

Like JA herself, I think the JA Special will invoke the same thought patterns as this Cold Play song 'Clocks'...

"and nothing else compares,
and nothing else compares,
and nothing else compares"

A $400 M6-R does not invoke thoughts of M1 tanks in my mind. More like super expensive Mercedes AMG, high-performance, bank vault like precision quality solid feel. It is really an unnecessarily expensive, showoff luxury item. Contrarily, the JA Special is more like an equally expensive, but altogether much lighter, more responsive, and powerful dream...and nothing compares to the $650k Enzo Ferrari, like this one I saw last week being driven to the Beverly Hills Peninsula Hotel to be parked out in front driveway for ostentatious display, presumably for the wealthy owner with Wisconsin license plates.







In conclusion, the M6-R is a nice, but uninspiring project, a rather expensive rich man's toy, kind of fat and unwieldy without any endurance /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif. When js builds me the "JA Special"--wicked, awesome, dead-solid-perfect, thin/sexy; then I start drooling...but still cannot afford that one either /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif, too rich for my blood. Darned js, I keep saying "I'm out"; when you start working on the JA Special, be sure and let me be a ß-tester...I can keep a secret.


----------



## CroMAGnet (Nov 13, 2004)

*Re: The SF M6-R: a regulated rechargeable SF M6 (H*

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/popcorn.gif


----------



## js (Nov 13, 2004)

*Re: The SF M6-R: a regulated rechargeable SF M6 (H*

udaman,

One of these days you're going to say something nice and friendly and pleasing. I'd like that. I will if you will. Deal?

Nice pictures, though.

I don't know much about Li-ions and what 18650's are available, but check out this graph of Tweeks:







It looks to me as if these 18650's (whichever ones they are) can handle 5 amps. And on top of that, haven't I read on CPF where people have bored out M4's and put in two of these and run the M6 HOLA?

Not that I care much one way or another. I'm not recommending it or anything.

Maybe the soft-start feature isn't the filament life-extender that some say it is. Doug_S certainly knows what he's talking about. But even if this is so, it has nothing to do with the efficiency of the LVR.

Let's do a little math, shall we? Let's assume that the GP 1100's deliver the full 1100 mAh even at 3C draws. The average ratio of the voltages is 10.8 / 6.8 = 1.588. Thus the batteries must supply an average current of 3.148 amps in order for the 6.8 volt lamp to draw 5.0 amps. This means 20.9 minutes of runtime. I'm getting 19.5 minutes. This is 93 percent efficient already. And the GP1100's will not deliver the full 1100 mAh at 3C: something more like 1050 mAh or a little less. This equates to 20.0 minutes or a little less, which would equate to an efficiency of 97.5 percent or a little more.

Do you have some sort of religious belief about efficient regulators? Some sort of a priori notion that they don't exist? Where does your dogmatic anti-Willie Hunt stance come from, anyway?

I'm sure that any competent EE could design a good regulator for the Phoenix, Willie included, but he or she would have to have the time and incliniation to do so. I doubt Willie has either at the moment. Which means the Phoenix guys would be restricted to the standard LVR's. The LVR3G can handle 60 volts and 25 amps--that is overkill, even for the Phoenix--so it must boil down to space issues. You can't fault Willie for that.

I'm sorry that you aren't impressed or happy with my M6-R project, udaman. I didn't expect you to be over-joyed about it, but I must say, I didn't expect you to dump all over it in my own thread.

That's OK. Those JA pictures help even things out.


----------



## Prolepsis (Nov 13, 2004)

[ QUOTE ]
*udaman said:*
And js knows this from PM's between us, and I have to say I'm somewhat disappointed in this M6R. It is almost like the TL was a starting project that led to the fancy high-end (read expensive) M6-R project, as they both rely on basically the same type of power source. It is just in the M6, we add a Willie Hunt regulator to the package (the 'super secret' project js hinted to me a few months ago which I had guessed would be a regulated TL85). 

Counterpoint and I suppose OT for this thread, but CPF member BatteryCharger did a group buy on 3,200lm X990 HID that runs 60+ min. per charge, and only cost $300. This smaller and lower output SFM6-R, costs twice as much as the higher output TL85!!!! If Ginseng's Aurora at $300+ did not interest me, a smaller 500lm M6-R for $400 surely would not either. Heh, js your secret project would not have been hinted at by me, cause it did not interest me .

<snip>
I have to say, it almost seems like js has lost his roots and gone on to 'sell-out'. Originally he wanted to provide CPF members with as many lumens as possible for the lowest costs, much like me. These high-end lights are nice for what they are, but are too expensive for most; I'm more interested in trying to provide high lumens for under $100.


[/ QUOTE ]

I looked at the purdy pictures and graphs and read both posts--just wanted to add my perspective on why I'm interested in Jim's M6-R project (and comment on some specific bits above). I'm not going to touch on the NiMH vs LiIon debate because you two have waaay more knowledge on these different types of batteries. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif

1) For some people, the one reason why they don't use or have an M6 is because of the battery cost. An interesting line of "personal" accounting, since one can point out that the M6 retails for almost 400 US, so a bunch of batteries for 1.25 US each shouldn't make a difference. Fair enough. But for many people, there is a difference. 

For example, I have a friend who has an M6 that doesn't get much use--he turns it on from time to time, but that's about it. When I had my M6, I was much the same way--I'd use it for fun, but I didn't particularly want to feed her six batteries every twenty minutes, so the M6 was rarely the first light that I'd grab for a task.

2) The TL upgrades and the M6-R project both appeal to me because they give me a choice. Like many others, I like the workmanship of the SureFires (and the TigerLights, to be fair). 
There is just something about owning an M6--you'll find that in many posts, people often advise others to get an M6 over an M4 if they were to choose just one superbright SureFire. Silly reasoning sometimes? Not cost effective? Sure. Some people buy M6s for fun; some people buy M6s for work. Either way, the M6-R project now gives M6 users a second alternative power source. For example, now I can realistically EDC an M6 for fun! Overkill? Sure!

3) The TL body is quite different in form and function to the M6 body. Like my second point, it all boils down to preferences, and, in this case, the option of choice.

4) For me, HIDs and Incans are in different classes. Sure, the X990 HID group buy is a good deal, but then it is a HID. Start up time and expensive HID bulbs are the two factors that deter me from getting a HID-based light at the moment. Of course, SureFire bulbs aren't cheap, either.

5) The soft-start feature is more of a bonus for me. One second is personally too long, so I'm glad that the startup time has been shorted. Of course, YMMV. Pyro mentioned that he doesn't care if it takes one to two seconds to start up.

6) I'm not well-versed on the history or the details of all the specific projects between the hot-wire guys, nor do I want to get involved, but I personally would like to say that calling Jim a "sell-out" is a bit unfair (unless this is how you guys rib each other /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif). Jim is providing M6 owners or possible future owners options. And this is why I signed up as a field tester. Maybe the M6-R will suck; maybe the project will rock--either way, I now have an option that I didn't have before. 

And if the M6-R does suck, or if there's something about it that doesn't work for me that comes up during field testing, I will post my thoughts. Either way, I do appreciate Jim's efforts in trying to build an affortable (relative term here) M6. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Anyhow, just some food for thought, since I can't sleep at the moment. I think that I'm kidding about EDCing an M6-R in the future. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/poke2.gif


----------



## js (Nov 14, 2004)

*Re: The SF M6-R: a regulated rechargeable SF M6 (H*

udaman,

I've been doing some more thinking on your lastest post, and I'd like to add a few more responses to it:

First, in regards to the "thinking outside the box" comment, allow me to quote you in context: here is the paragraph I was talking about:

[ QUOTE ]
"My hands are small"...singer Jewel says. What about extension tubes for the C body Mags; can you get these made, and for how much? Although the Mag C diameter is still a bit too large for what I want, I was thinking about possibilities with the Pila rechargeable and the larger diameter Pilas. There was discussion of cramming 4x123's into 2C Mag body, w/modified tailcaps- w or w/o springs. I'm wondering if 2 1800ma 168 Pilas would fit better in a 4x123 Mag 2C mod like this? If not, then what about extension tubes that will allow for 2 or 3 Pila with the Mag C bodies??? Short runtimes, but you get the benefit of higher voltages with fewer cells, compared to 1.2v NiMH batteries/sticks, though probably giving up ability to run higher amp loads. Pila/Copia discharge graphs??? I'm rather surprised, that regular moders are not "thinking out of the box" about the possibilities/flexibility the Pila open up. Think about it, NiMH batteries/ sticks loose a signficant amount of runtime if you don't keep them constantly charged-am I the only one who is forgetful? Pila will have relatively same output/runtime 6 months, maybe even 1 year of just sitting in the flashlight. And if the runtime is a bit short, who cares. Just pop a new set of previously charged batteries into the flashlight...did I mention they retain the majority their charge for upwards of a year or more???

[/ QUOTE ]

And here is the link to the original thread from which it came. There. How's that for context.

And, your objections notwithstanding, I still think it's a pretty good example of what I am talking about. I say that on CPF the "box" IS lithium chemistry, Pilas, 123's, etc. and to illustrate that (once again) let me just say that my original plans for making my own mod involved 123's and Pilas, for the reasons you mentioned. I went to NiMH in my TL and M6 projects because it was better suited to my needs. All I was trying to say was that CPFers generally think first about Li chemistry batteries. So my choice of NiMH represents an effort to think "outside the box."

I do not believe that I did you a dis-service or quoted you unfairly, but people can see the original paragraph above, and click on the link, and judge for themselves.

Now, moving on to the question of whether or not I have "sold out":

[ QUOTE ]
*udaman said:*

And js knows this from PM's between us, and I have to say I'm somewhat disappointed in this M6R. It is almost like the TL was a starting project that led to the fancy high-end (read expensive) M6-R project, as they both rely on basically the same type of power source. It is just in the M6, we add a Willie Hunt regulator to the package (the 'super secret' project js hinted to me a few months ago which I had guessed would be a regulated TL85). 

I have to say, it almost seems like js has lost his roots and gone on to 'sell-out'. Originally he wanted to provide CPF members with as many lumens as possible for the lowest costs, much like me. These high-end lights are nice for what they are, but are too expensive for most; I'm more interested in trying to provide high lumens for under $100.

In conclusion, the M6-R is a nice, but uninspiring project, a rather expensive rich man's toy, kind of fat and unwieldy without any endurance . When js builds me the "JA Special"--wicked, awesome, dead-solid-perfect, thin/sexy; then I start drooling...but still cannot afford that one either , too rich for my blood. Darned js, I keep saying "I'm out"; when you start working on the JA Special, be sure and let me be a ß-tester...I can keep a secret. 

[/ QUOTE ]

udaman, I did agree with you, in a PM, that there was something to be said for trying to provide the most lumens for the most CPFers--i.e. lots of lumens for cheap, and I remember lamenting the fact that there was no $5 drop in WA lamp 1160 type upgrade for the TigerLight like there was for the MC. But I think I know myself better than you do, and I can assure you that my roots are NOT in inexpensive mag mods. My roots are actually in expensive, high quality lights, such as the SureFire C2 and Arc LSH. I never set out on a mission to provide cheap lumens! I set out on a mission to make the TigerLight compete with an MC60. THAT was my mission.

I started on the TL project because I *personally* wanted a brighter TigerLight, and I continued with it, and worked as hard as I did, partly because there was so much interest in it. The TL is a very popular rechargeable light here on CPF and I'm pretty sure that a few people were pleased with my efforts and thought that they got a good value for the money.

Yet, if it comes to providing CPFers with options for cheap lumens, I believe I have done something towards that end as well. I set out to solve the problem of high heat and current issues in mag mods. Originally, as you know, I was planning a drop-in replacement for the switch pedestal assy, but upon further investigation, I found out that the switch will indeed take 5 amps without any trouble, and thus the only issue was the heat generated by the superbulbs. And in the interest of keeping costs down, I suggested a plan that many have used: cut off the pedestal. Then solder wires to the right places, and use a stock 1940 and one of my ring potted bulbs and molex connectors to grab the pins. I have an active B/S/T thread where I am offering these connectors and related things for sale for very cheap.

Now, the M6-R project really chose me and not vice versa. You can belittle it if you want, but I'm quite proud of it. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif I have a quiet sense of satisfaction over what I've done here. I could mention that I also built a charger from scratch for this project, and I could mention that there was a lot more to making and designing the battery pack than just adding a Willie Hunt regulator to the package. I could go into detail over just why it was such a challenge and just why I'm proud of it.

But I won't.

Let me just point out that there are a fair number of people out there who own M6's and who have been asking the CPF audience about the possibility of a rechargeable M6 for a long time now. Even if we were to say that this was an easy project, and somewhat uninspiring, there would still remain the fact that it fills a need and addresses a request from part of CPF.

[ QUOTE ]
*udaman said:*

If we are looking at a true small form factor and want the big $$$ footprint, then js will only really impress me when he works his butt off with engineers to design...what do we call it? The "JA Special" for CPF members, designed by js, 'thinking out of the box', raising the bar. That would mean an 500 lm or more HID in the smallest form factor yet---yes that means getting a smaller diameter ballast made, like a SF P9 body. 

[/ QUOTE ]

Here's a news flash, oodles: my goal in life is not to impress you--I mean, it's fine if I do, but it's also fine if I don't. And if it comes to that, has anything or anyone *ever* impressed you? You seem to be pretty immune to that emotion. Ginseng can work his butt off to build the first 3D form factor HID level brightness light, and you say "build me an HID version in a C form factor. Incans make too much heat."

And here's an idea: *GO BUILD THE JA SPECIAL YOURSELF.*


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## CroMAGnet (Nov 14, 2004)

*Re: The SF M6-R: a regulated rechargeable SF M6 (H*

I was at the bayarea flashaholic gathering a week or so back, when a fellow CPF'er said to me while refering to one of my flashlights; "What do you need THAT for?" [or something like that] I was about to answer when we started laughing, because we don't need it for anything!!! It was very obvious that we all really liked flashlights and didn't need a practical reason to have them.

I for one am fascinated by the customization and design of the flashlights discussed on CPF. Like the evolution of a (re)design in a thread such as this. I can really appreciate the light, knowing all the detail and dedication that has been put into it. By the way, I don't know the first thing about electricity. Just the difference between a guitar amp and a budhist chanting ohm. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/duh2.gif I thought LOLA was a showgirl in that Copacabana song by Barry Manilow, and HOLA was something they say every morning when I stop in to pick up my double latte.

Thanks for all you do here js. And the way you do it. Always a gentleman. I'm looking forward to the reading about how you improve upon this light throught beta, as I bump it up on my list of lights to get next. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif


----------



## js (Nov 14, 2004)

*Re: The SF M6-R: a regulated rechargeable SF M6 (H*

Thanks for your kind words, CromagNet. Much appreciated.

So let's see, BN should get his beta M6-R stuff on Monday, and I plan on ordering all the supplies for the field testers M6-R's this weekend or early next week, except for the LVR3I's. I'll wait until BN has weighed in on the set point level of the warning flashes. At first I thought they were a bit late, but then I changed my mind. At the moment I think they are pretty close to ideal. However, I no longer have a working M6 or a functional M6-R pack, so I can't do further testing of the set point. I'll leave that to BN.

I've also nailed down some charger improvements and refinements: a smaller box, a better heat sink, a lighter, universal input power supply (posted by Floating Spots above) and a better proto-board.

It's all coming together nicely, I think, and I'm really looking forward to seeing how BN and the other field testers like their M6-R's.


----------



## Illuminated (Nov 14, 2004)

*Re: The SF M6-R: a regulated rechargeable SF M6 (H*

Jim,

Very nice work. You've clearly done a ton of research and actual testing with the LVR to push this project light's performance right to the edge - with little risk of having it fall off! That should be quite comforting to those fortunate enough receive one.

I set up my LVR bike light *very* conservatively - using Willie's suggested warning and cut-off levels for the pack/lamp I chose, and it works quite nicely. I didn't have the time/resources to "explore the edges" and make my final setup determinations as you have.

My two cents worth - I didn't *need* a 16-lb carbon fibre racing bicycle, but I bought one because I *wanted* one. I could have bought something different for considerably less, but riding this one gives me great joy. I didn't buy it to impress - I ride mostly solo.

You are providing many owners of the revered M6 a viable option for a quality rechargeable system, and the included output regulation "raises the bar" for incandescents, as McGizmo (I believe) had stated in reference to the A2.

I regret that I'm not in a position to sign up for one of your M6-R's at this time. Keep up the great work!

John


----------



## Ginseng (Nov 14, 2004)

*Re: The SF M6-R: a regulated rechargeable SF M6 (H*

Udaman,

I just read your rather denigrating post of the M6-R project and Jim and I have to say I'm disappointed. We all work hard to make sometimes little and sometimes large contributions to the field and the community. No one person decides what is or is not a significant contribution. Only time and the community of users, consumers and inventors can decide this and only by actions, not words. 

There isn't a modder I know who wouldn't be proud to share whatever they come up with. Not for commerce, not for adulation (ok, maybe a little) but for the sheer joy of it. That's why I do the hotwire thing. Make it hot, make it bright and keep it raw. That's the perspective I choose. I don't have to tell jack about what, how or why I do things but I answer every single PM I get and I try to help people out. I know for a fact Jim is the same way. He produces, invents and mentors. That's good enough for me.

As for your stated preference for form factor and battery technology, it's all good. Pick what you like and have fun because that's what it's all about. But to knock other modders because they're not making what you want to see...well, you can be a little bit more circumspect in your comments is all I'll say here. 

BTW, I had several li-ion toches on the drawing board including a high wattage regulated C-form using 26650 cells but I dropped it because I couldn't justify spending $30 a cell. If you want one, send me the cells and the LVR and I'll think about it. But small and ultrabright has already been done. AilSnail did it earlier this year by making over 3,000 lumens from a 3C. Regulation and Li-Ion is not voodoo science. It comes down to money and to getting the cells. And since most companies consider C and D Li-Ions to be little bombs, guess what, they're damned hard to come by. I've tried over half a dozen suppliers, pack builders and designers with no luck.

Let's get things back on track. It's about the light and it's about sharing thoughts, ideas and creations. Oh yeah, and a little respect from all parties is not a bad thing either.

Wilkey

PS. I'm almost 40 so Ashley Judd (mmmmmmm) is more my speed.


----------



## bwaites (Nov 15, 2004)

*Re: The SF M6-R: a regulated rechargeable SF M6 (H*

WOW,

I leave for a few days and the Internecine Wars break out!!

For any who are in doubt about the elegance and usefulness of the M6-R, don't be! This is a HUGE step forward in the progression of Mods in general and hotwires in particular.

For a modder, not backed by a factory, to step out and find a regulation circuit that actually works, and then to implement that into an already existing platform is HUGE!!

I've spent literally hundreds of hours trying to pull that off with an existing platform, albeit a larger one with the ability to put out thousands, instead of hundreds, of lumens and had an impossible time. 

I finally resorted to producing my own rough, VERY ROUGH, as Ginseng and Otokoyama will testify, body. Even so, I still haven't been able to produce a battery system or regulator I am comfortable with.

KUDOS to js!!!

Bill


----------



## CroMAGnet (Nov 15, 2004)

*Re: The SF M6-R: a regulated rechargeable SF M6 (H*

How does a regulated circuit affect runtime using incan bulbs. Would it use more juice sooner? Would it sacrifice runtime?


----------



## bwaites (Nov 15, 2004)

*Re: The SF M6-R: a regulated rechargeable SF M6 (H*

I'm not the electrical engineer that Ginseng and js are, but the short answer is that it allows the light to maintain a more efficient drain, thus lengthening the time of maximum brightness for any given power level. That typically means you sacrifice a little total run time of the dimmer variety for a little longer bright run time. 

Bill


----------



## brightnorm (Nov 16, 2004)

*Re: The SF M6-R: a regulated rechargeable SF M6 (H*

Criticism is easy. Creativity brought to functional fruition is not. In my highly competitive field pointed criticism between knowledgeable individuals is usually communicated quietly or privately.

As a lay member of CPF my electronic knowledge is not 1/100th of JS's or Udaman's but it is clear that nothing equal to the rechargeable regulated M6 has existed before and that its size/brightness/runtime combination makes it a truly innovative and useful tool. My testing has convinced me that it is an important step along a bright evolutionary path. 

Perhaps it could eventually be cheaper, smaller, lighter, brighter, more advanced and better, but right now the M6-R and the Tigerlight upgrades are the limits of the art, the best we have. 

I'm happy to have them and I congratulate Jim for making it possible for us to enjoy them, even vicariously. 

Brightnorm


----------



## brightnorm (Nov 16, 2004)

*Re: The SF M6-R: a regulated rechargeable SF M6 (H*

[ QUOTE ]
*js said:*
...I'll wait until BN has weighed in on the set point level of the warning flashes. At first I thought they were a bit late, but then I changed my mind. At the moment I think they are pretty close to ideal. However, I no longer have a working M6 or a functional M6-R pack, so I can't do further testing of the set point. I'll leave that to BN.


[/ QUOTE ]
Jim,

I'd say it's set late, but not too late if the light is turned off immediately. Actually I was afraid to let it run past the first few flashes for fear of damaging it. Would you like me to do that for my next test? If so please alert m to any precautions that I should take

Brightnorm


----------



## js (Nov 16, 2004)

*Re: The SF M6-R: a regulated rechargeable SF M6 (H*

[ QUOTE ]
*brightnorm said:*
[ QUOTE ]
*js said:*
...I'll wait until BN has weighed in on the set point level of the warning flashes. At first I thought they were a bit late, but then I changed my mind. At the moment I think they are pretty close to ideal. However, I no longer have a working M6 or a functional M6-R pack, so I can't do further testing of the set point. I'll leave that to BN.


[/ QUOTE ]
Jim,

I'd say it's set late, but not too late if the light is turned off immediately. Actually I was afraid to let it run past the first few flashes for fear of damaging it. Would you like me to do that for my next test? If so please alert m to any precautions that I should take

Brightnorm 

[/ QUOTE ]

Firstly, yes, you can run it to the point where it actually falls out of regulation and starts to dim, but just be sure to turn it off IMMEDIATELY when it starts to dim. Personally I think that the time from warning to dimming should be something like 10 seconds. This would mean that the warning flashes are a signal that says "TURN OFF NOW!". But the warning level could be set to a higher voltage, so that the signal would translate to "Better turn off sometime soon".

The problem with the latter approach is that there is no option for a second type of warning to tell you that you are down to the very last seconds of runtime. Discharging past 6.8 volts (to the point of dimming) on a 9 cell pack is OK once and a while, but it should not be done routinely, as the voltage per cell (.75) is too low to be hit every cycle. On the other hand, I want to repeat: it is fine if it is hit occasionally.

What do people think? Any opinions on the subject?


----------



## brightnorm (Nov 16, 2004)

*Re: The SF M6-R: a regulated rechargeable SF M6 (H*

I plan to conclude my testing tonight and have a review posted late tonight or tomorrow afternoon.

Brightnorm


----------



## js (Nov 16, 2004)

*Re: The SF M6-R: a regulated rechargeable SF M6 (H*

[ QUOTE ]
*brightnorm said:*
I plan to conclude my testing tonight and have a review posted late tonight or tomorrow afternoon.

Brightnorm 

[/ QUOTE ]

Brightnorm, this is almost too good to be true! Wow! I almost can't wait. Wooo hoooo! Yippeeee! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/popcorn.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/bowdown.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/bowdown.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/bowdown.gif


----------



## brightnorm (Nov 16, 2004)

*Re: The SF M6-R: a regulated rechargeable SF M6 (H*

Easy Jim, I may have lied /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/evilgrin07.gif

BN


----------



## brightnorm (Nov 17, 2004)

*Re: The SF M6-R: a regulated rechargeable SF M6 (H*

Review posted in General Flashlights

THE M6-R: RECHARGEABLE FULLY REGULATED M6 MAKES AN AUSPICIOUS DEBUT 

Brightnorm


----------



## js (Nov 17, 2004)

*Re: The SF M6-R: a regulated rechargeable SF M6 (H*

Brightnorm,

Thanks for the great review. Nicely done.

Especially nice to have that runtime from flashing to dimming. Personally, I feel that it is set exactly right, and unless there is any objection, I will order all future LVR3I's with the warning flashes set to 8.3 volts. I personally feel that that is the function they should serve: SHUT OFF NOW! And there is sufficient runtime for a person to grab a backup light, or get to a good stopping point in a task, set things down, etc. So, are there any objections to this set-point? If so please let me know.

I am in the middle of placing the orders for the supplies necessary to make up the three field tester's M6-R kits, and will order the LVR's as soon as people have had more of a chance to weigh in on the warning flashes set-point question.

Very exciting! and very nice that the beta testing has gone smoothly so far. Thanks everyone, and don't be shy about posting--that's what this thread is for.


----------



## K-T (Nov 17, 2004)

*Re: The SF M6-R: a regulated rechargeable SF M6 (H*

Is there any final round wrapping around the battery pack or does it stay in that triangular shape? What's the latest on the softstart timing /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/poke2.gif ? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif


----------



## js (Nov 17, 2004)

*Re: The SF M6-R: a regulated rechargeable SF M6 (H*

K-T,

It stays in the triangular shape.

Softstart timing will be set to the "very-fast" setting, which is 60 mS, or just longer than half a tenth of a second.


----------



## K-T (Nov 17, 2004)

*Re: The SF M6-R: a regulated rechargeable SF M6 (H*

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/buttrock.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Will this be a onetime thing or is there a chance to get one of these at a later moment? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/broke.gif


----------



## js (Nov 17, 2004)

*Re: The SF M6-R: a regulated rechargeable SF M6 (H*

[ QUOTE ]
*K-T said:*
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/buttrock.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Will this be a onetime thing or is there a chance to get one of these at a later moment? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/broke.gif 

[/ QUOTE ]

Probably, I will do more than one build run, but I'm not promising that. What I WILL do is to open a first build run B/S/T signup thread after the completion of field testing, probably sometime in January or February of next year. If you want an M6-R, you should probably sign-up. *I will not require payment until I ship your order.* So if cash flow around the Holidays is an issue, keep that in mind. Also, for those who would prefer to prepay, note that as soon as I open the signup thread, you can feel free to pay me if you want. Your choice.

All of this is assuming that no insurmountable problems sink this project and that I am still alive and able-bodied enough to build all of these mods. By the grace of God, let it be so.


----------



## bwaites (Nov 17, 2004)

*Re: The SF M6-R: a regulated rechargeable SF M6 (H*

js,

What are the dimensions on the pack and regulator combo?

Might this be used in another body with another bulb?

Bill


----------



## Topper (Nov 17, 2004)

*Re: The SF M6-R: a regulated rechargeable SF M6 (H*

I would be interested if the final cost is not too high for the cell pack with charger. And I am not too late.
Topper /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif


----------



## tvodrd (Nov 17, 2004)

*Re: The SF M6-R: a regulated rechargeable SF M6 (H*

After brightnorm's review, you have my interest. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Larry


----------



## Catdaddy (Nov 17, 2004)

*Re: The SF M6-R: a regulated rechargeable SF M6 (H*

I am ready for my test unit! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif


----------



## js (Nov 18, 2004)

*Re: The SF M6-R: a regulated rechargeable SF M6 (H*

[ QUOTE ]
*bwaites said:*
js,

What are the dimensions on the pack and regulator combo?

Might this be used in another body with another bulb?

Bill 

[/ QUOTE ]

Bill, what did you have in mind? I would suggest that if you can avoid it, do NOT integrate the battery pack with the regulator. It's an extra level of hastle. Anyway, as for the dimensions, they are something like a little less than 3.6" long and 1.44" in diameter (for the circle which encompases the rounded triangular shape of the pack). Plus, the output is set to 6.8 volts and cannot be changed, so that limits things a bit. Of course, you can order an LVR set to whatever voltage you want (within reason).

Larry, I'm honored by your interest. BN's review was an eye-catcher, wasn't it.

Topper, you're not too late. You're early. I will be opening a B/S/T signup thread sometime in Jan or Feb of 2005. Worst case, cost will be $110 for the pack and $75 for the charger (or $10 for the cable only if you already have a stand alone charger).


----------



## celler (Nov 18, 2004)

*Re: The SF M6-R: a regulated rechargeable SF M6 (H*

Please put me on your list of interested folks. Excellent work.

Craig.


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## Glow Bug (Nov 18, 2004)

*Re: The SF M6-R: a regulated rechargeable SF M6 (H*

I want in too...Please


----------



## McGizmo (Nov 18, 2004)

*Re: The SF M6-R: a regulated rechargeable SF M6 (H*

I just want to state that I think this is a great idea and build!!! It just isn't right that the poor A2 stands alone and lonely! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbsup.gif The addition of rechargeable cells really makes good sense for a lamp that is not shy when it comes to power consumption! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon15.gif (Not that my opinion means diddly squat but it's free and I wanted to state it! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif )


----------



## Starlight (Nov 18, 2004)

*Re: The SF M6-R: a regulated rechargeable SF M6 (H*

I am in for battery pack and charger.


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## js (Nov 18, 2004)

*Re: The SF M6-R: a regulated rechargeable SF M6 (H*

[ QUOTE ]
*McGizmo said:*
I just want to state that I think this is a great idea and build!!! It just isn't right that the poor A2 stands alone and lonely! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbsup.gif The addition of rechargeable cells really makes good sense for a lamp that is not shy when it comes to power consumption! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon15.gif (Not that my opinion means diddly squat but it's free and I wanted to state it! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif ) 

[/ QUOTE ]

Don,

I admire you, I admire your work, and I am very happy to hear your opinion on ANY subject and most especially on this one. It means a lot more than diddly squat to me! Thanks for weighing in.

(Oh, sorry Don. Right. Nothing serious--keep it light. got it.)

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/nana.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon15.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/nana.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/nana.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/drunk.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grouphug.gif


----------



## NotRegulated (Nov 18, 2004)

*Re: The SF M6-R: a regulated rechargeable SF M6 (H*

I don't own an M6 because of the "no rechargable" option. The battery cost would eat me alive. I do own a 10X because I get 500 lumens guilt free. If this project/product works out I would be most likely in for two battery packs and a charger. I'd better start pricing M6's!
Now we need someone on this forum to step up to the plate and provide discounted M6's.


----------



## js (Nov 18, 2004)

*Re: The SF M6-R: a regulated rechargeable SF M6 (H*

[ QUOTE ]
*NotRegulated said:*

Now we need someone on this forum to step up to the plate and provide discounted M6's. 

[/ QUOTE ]

I hear that! From what I can tell, it's a no-can-do scenario. SF is pretty strict on selling below list. hmmm. I wonder, though. What if I actually DROVE to a brick and mortar store to try to negotiate a group buy of SF M6's? Can B&M stores sell for less than list? Anyone who knows, PM me, please. (This is probably not the place to be discussing this, I'm guessing).


----------



## jdriller (Nov 18, 2004)

*Re: The SF M6-R: a regulated rechargeable SF M6 (H*

Put me on the list for the pack with a way to hook it up to a Triton charger.
Excellent work!


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## Ginseng (Nov 18, 2004)

*Re: The SF M6-R: a regulated rechargeable SF M6 (H*

Better warm up that iron, Jim. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Wilkey


----------



## jtivat (Nov 19, 2004)

I am in for one!


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## js (Nov 19, 2004)

*Re: The SF M6-R: a regulated rechargeable SF M6 (H*

[ QUOTE ]
*Ginseng said:*
Better warm up that iron, Jim. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Wilkey 

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah. You're not kidding! But I couldn't be any worse than the last TL build run, could it? ah heh he he (nervous laughter).

Everyone who has expressed interest, THANK YOU. I've got you on my list. No worries. Everyone who wants an M6-R kit will be able to get one.


----------



## Crosman451 (Nov 19, 2004)

*Re: The SF M6-R: a regulated rechargeable SF M6 (H*

Count me in for one pack with hook up to a Triton charger as well. Finally, I can use this flashlight more and get the max brightness for the battery run, not to mention the cost savings on being able to recharge! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/happy14.gif

Great work!


----------



## PaulW (Nov 19, 2004)

*Re: The SF M6-R: a regulated rechargeable SF M6 (H*

Jim,

Great work. I guess I'll just have to get an M6 now -- no excuses not to. 

I would be in for the pack and cable. I believe my Maha C777 Plus-II will handle charging. (If anyone thinks not, I'd like to know.)

I'm looking forward to hearing more as testing continues. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbsup.gif

Paul


----------



## mullytron (Nov 19, 2004)

*Re: The SF M6-R: a regulated rechargeable SF M6 (H*

newbie here, been looking at M6s, put me on the list if there's still time.


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## supes (Nov 20, 2004)

*Re: The SF M6-R: a regulated rechargeable SF M6 (H*

I'm interested. I always wanted a M6 now is a good excuse. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif


----------



## Turd_Ferguson (Nov 21, 2004)

*Re: The SF M6-R: a regulated rechargeable SF M6 (H*

I'd like one of these kits as well. Please toss my name in the pile. Thanks!


----------



## lightemup (Nov 21, 2004)

*Re: The SF M6-R: a regulated rechargeable SF M6 (H*

Please provisionally add me to the list too /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif


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## js (Nov 22, 2004)

*Re: The SF M6-R: a regulated rechargeable SF M6 (H*

Thanks for the continued interest and posting of same! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif I am starting an email "NOTIFY" list for those who are interested in being sent an email a week or so before the opening of the signup thread (especially set up for those people who don't check in on CPF very often.)

If you want to be on the notify list, send me an email at *email address removed* with the word "NOTIFY" in the subject line. But I want to *stress* that this is just a service I am providing and it is NOT the signup list and if you check in on CPF once a week or more often than that, there is no need to put yourself on the signup list. On the other hand, there's no reason not to do so either. Whatever you want.

Again, for those who don't already know, the signup thread and first build run will _probably_ not be opening until Jan or Feb of 2005, but we'll see.

Just as soon as I get all the supplies, I will begin construction of the M6-R packs and chargers for the field testers.


And brightnorm, thanks again for that timely and well crafted review!


----------



## Prolepsis (Nov 25, 2004)

*Re: The SF M6-R: a regulated rechargeable SF M6 (H*

I tracked down an M6. I'm all ready to field test. Woot! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif


----------



## js (Nov 29, 2004)

*Re: The SF M6-R: a regulated rechargeable SF M6 (H*

Prolepsis & Pyro & Catdaddy,

Supplies are winging their ways to me right now so that I can make up your SF M6-R's. When I get enough stuff to start building things, I will.

I have the new power supplies and the new smaller perforated aluminum boxes, and I have to say that they are both very nice improvements on the proto-type which BN has. Per his request, I got brightnorm's box in a black, crinkly finish, and as it turns out, I like it better than the plain aluminum. So as long as it doesn't flake or scratch too easily, I will probably go with the black finish for the production run. The new power supply will work on any line voltage and is a switching supply, so it is nice and light. Not like the monster linear regulated supply which I used for the proto-type. As I'm sure BN can attest, that thing is WAY heavy. The shipping costs alone made it more expensive than the one I'm using now (which I would have used to begin with, if I'd seen it).

If everything goes smoothly, field testing should begin in two to three weeks.

One thing: the power supply needs an IEC connector power cord. This is the connection system used for the power cords of most computers, and the cord end fits into a socket on the computer or (in this case) power supply. The socket has three recessed prongs, while the cord end has three slots to recieve them.

Everyone know what I'm talking about? Anyway, pyro, we will need to get one of these that will have a plug on the other end which will fit into the German wall outlet. This should be a simple matter, right? Go to some computer store, and get a power cord, or something like that. Anyone know definitively how this works for Germany, and UK, and so on?


----------



## pyro (Nov 29, 2004)

*Re: The SF M6-R: a regulated rechargeable SF M6 (H*

no problem js, have several of these laying around here.


----------



## KevinL (Nov 30, 2004)

*Re: The SF M6-R: a regulated rechargeable SF M6 (H*

[ QUOTE ]
*js said:*
Everyone know what I'm talking about? Anyway, pyro, we will need to get one of these that will have a plug on the other end which will fit into the German wall outlet. This should be a simple matter, right? Go to some computer store, and get a power cord, or something like that. Anyone know definitively how this works for Germany, and UK, and so on? 

[/ QUOTE ]

The IEC connector is pretty much a universal standard, you should be able to buy localized versions wherever you are. Almost makes me wish the world would standardize on it /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif


----------



## js (Dec 1, 2004)

*Re: The SF M6-R: a regulated rechargeable SF M6 (H*

Kevin,

Good. That's what I was hoping was the case.

I have replied to everyone on the NOTIFY list, so if you didn't get an email reply from me, you aren't on my email notification list.

Situation on M6-R's for field testers is the same as before. Supplies are still en route, but I did get the proto-boards since the last time I posted, and my newark order should be here today, and the batteries by Friday, and Willie tells me he will send out the LVR's to me on Friday, so I should have those late next week.

This is exciting! One thing I'm particularly curious to know is how the MN20 (M6 LOLA) and MN16 (M3T HOLA) will work as M6-R LOLA's. My money is on the MN16. Good suggestion by pyro. Actually I just checked and pyro suggested the MN15 (M3T LOLA), but I suspect that the MN16 will work better, because the current draw on the single stack of three 123's is the more or less the same as the current draws on each of the parallel 123 stacks used in the M6 w/ HOLA, and this is more or less the voltage the LVR is set to. It acts like three series 123's delivering around 2.5 amps in terms of the voltage, but will deliver whatever current is asked for (up to 20 amps, anyway).

Any of you filed testers have an MN16 M3T HOLA to try?


----------



## pyro (Dec 1, 2004)

*Re: The SF M6-R: a regulated rechargeable SF M6 (H*

Yes, have one and will test it .


----------



## cy (Dec 1, 2004)

*Re: The SF M6-R: a regulated rechargeable SF M6 (H*

Got an M6 enroute, I would like a kit w/o charger. email send for notification list.


----------



## pyro (Dec 1, 2004)

*Re: The SF M6-R: a regulated rechargeable SF M6 (H*

i rechecked the voltages:
(new Surefire cells)
MN16: Maximum 6.15V , 
dropping fast to 5.7V , then somewhat stable voltage
MN15: maximum 7.3V , stabilizes at 6.9V

MN16 is heavy overdriven by 6.8V and may flash.

The MN15 seems to be a little underdriven at 6.8V, but not 
so much that it results in a yellow beam or poor efficiency.

I understand that a low beam in the 250 lumens area is more
desired, but with the MN15 a long regulated runtime can be 
expected

<font color="red">*Forget everything what i wrote in that post!
My measurements were completely wrong, not sure 
why at this moment.* </font> 
Sorry for the confusion i brought up.


----------



## Topper (Dec 1, 2004)

*Re: The SF M6-R: a regulated rechargeable SF M6 (H*

This is really fun to watch. I want one I am almost glad it will be Jan or Feb before you start the run gives me time to get the money. I said almost. I wish I had one right now.
Topper /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif


----------



## tvodrd (Dec 1, 2004)

*Re: The SF M6-R: a regulated rechargeable SF M6 (H*

Pardon my ignorance, but what is an MN60? I have an M6 that came with it installed. Also, please add me to the charger list- I don't think I mentioned that.

Larry


----------



## Topper (Dec 1, 2004)

*Re: The SF M6-R: a regulated rechargeable SF M6 (H*

M4 12 volt LOLA lamp.
Topper /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif


----------



## Topper (Dec 1, 2004)

*Re: The SF M6-R: a regulated rechargeable SF M6 (H*

The M6 should come with the MN20 and MN21
Topper /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif


----------



## Prolepsis (Dec 1, 2004)

*Re: The SF M6-R: a regulated rechargeable SF M6 (H*

I can also test with the M3T HOLA (MN16). I only have one left, but don't mind using it.

I won't need a charger anymore, as my smart NIMH charger should work; however, Jim, if you have already ordered me a charger part, I can take one (don't want you to be stuck with an extra charger).

Looking forward to using the light lots to field test. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif


----------



## tvodrd (Dec 1, 2004)

*Re: The SF M6-R: a regulated rechargeable SF M6 (H*

Thanks Topper. (Anybody need a MN60?)
(And sorry for the OT, but I wanted to let Jim know I will need a charger.)

Larry


----------



## cy (Dec 1, 2004)

*Re: The SF M6-R: a regulated rechargeable SF M6 (H*

JS, just wanted to let you know. it's because of this project that tripped me over the edge and purchase an M6. 

not that it makes any differance, but I agree with your choice of cells. 

looking forward to Jan...


----------



## js (Dec 2, 2004)

*Re: The SF M6-R: a regulated rechargeable SF M6 (H*

pyro,

Hmmm. That's odd. I wonder, how did you measure the voltage under load of the MN16? It is critical in some cases. When I first measured the voltage of the MN21 under load I got an incorrect answer. Also, brock's flashlight page has an incorrect voltage as well. Part of the problem may be voltage drops at contact points and through long test leads. Not sure. But something has to account for my initial low reading, and brock's as well. I know what to do! I'll email my "inside" source of SureFire info: the intrepid Willie Hunt! He should be able to tell me the exact figures.

--Not to cast aspersions on your measurements, pyro. They could well be right on the money. It's just that I worry because it seems difficult (for some unfathomable reason) to get good measurements of voltage under load for the double coil spring SF LA's.

Anyway, we had better be VERY careful about blowing up lamp assemblies. It's not the cost of the lamp which is the big deal, but rather the cost of a new Millenium Turbo Head when the explosion ruins the reflector and lens. I have ways in which I can separately and safely test the various LA's with the M6-R battery pack. I'll do that first. I don't want any of the field testers ruining a $100+ turbo head on my account, without some preliminary testing and information to eliminate obviously dangerous choices for M6-R LOLA's. If pyro's number is right, the MN16 is a *no-go*. I repeat, do not try this at home. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif I guess that this is solely directed at brightnorm, since he is the only one with a working M6-R at the moment. (My turbo head is at SureFire for repair or replacement.)

Prolepsis, no worries, mate. I can always use a spare MAX712 and the other charger supplies. In fact, now I have a spare smaller powersupply to send to brightnorm. So it's all good.

cy, thanks for the approval of the GP 1100's. They're excellent cells, in my experience, and well matched to the LVR's exacting instantaneous current demands.


----------



## Topper (Dec 2, 2004)

*Re: The SF M6-R: a regulated rechargeable SF M6 (H*

I can always use another MN60 PM me if you want and we can work something out.
Topper /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif


----------



## tvodrd (Dec 2, 2004)

*Re: The SF M6-R: a regulated rechargeable SF M6 (H*

Probably O.T. but I made a tool for unscrewing the lens retainers on pre-scalloped M6 bezels if anyone needs to borrow it. 

Larry


----------



## aussielextsy (Dec 3, 2004)

*Re: The SF M6-R: a regulated rechargeable SF M6 (H*

Hi JS and all CPFers

I was wondering what to buy as a first flashlight and was about to get a 10x then saw this.

I AM ready to purchase 

1 x M6 Unit (does this come with the HOLA... Thats the one i want)
2 x Rechargable Battery packs
1 x Charger
1 x Australian standard cord
Plus maybe a couple of sets of the 123's maybe a box for the quick change
If you can help me with this dream ill be a very happy man.

Seeing as I live in australia I hope you could purchase the M6 for me and send everything at once if this is cool?

I have all the money and am ready to buy whenever.

Im happy to pay a few more dollars for the effort you go to to buy the M6 for me if you can and do everything for me.

Thanks plz let me know


----------



## js (Dec 3, 2004)

*Re: The SF M6-R: a regulated rechargeable SF M6 (H*

aussielextsy,

I replied to your email with all the details. Get the M6 now, and sign up in the B/S/T thread in January or February. Reply to my email if you have any additional questions. Sorry I can't take care of you right now, but we're still in the field testing phase. Working out the bugs. That sort of thing.

Everyone else,

I have everything I need now except for the LVR's and have already started building the field testers M6-R's.


----------



## PaulW (Dec 7, 2004)

*Re: The SF M6-R: a regulated rechargeable SF M6 (H*

[ QUOTE ]
*js said:*
pyro,

Hmmm. That's odd. I wonder, how did you measure the voltage under load of the MN16? It is critical in some cases. When I first measured the voltage of the MN21 under load I got an incorrect answer. Also, brock's flashlight page has an incorrect voltage as well. Part of the problem may be voltage drops at contact points and through long test leads. Not sure. But something has to account for my initial low reading, and brock's as well. I know what to do! I'll email my "inside" source of SureFire info: the intrepid Willie Hunt! He should be able to tell me the exact figures. . . . 

[/ QUOTE ]

Jim,

I also think the question of what to run for a LOLA is an important one.

I ran some tests in July 2003 on M3T lamp assemblies (the MN15 and MN16) using a breadboard made with heavy wires and soldered connections. The voltmeter was connected directly across the lamp to avoid the "long test lead" problem. Using three fresh SF123s for each test, I measured 7.85 volts and 1.20 amps for the MN15. I measured 6.80 volts and 2.48 amps for the MN16. 

It seems a strange coincidence that my measurement of the operating voltage for the MN16 was _exactly_ equal to the design voltage of your pack, but that's what my notebook says. There was no soft start to these tests. Thus, I believe that the MN16 is robust enough to work reliably in the M6-R. I’m willing to try it.

Come to think of it, perhaps it’s not a coincidence. Perhaps the voltages are precisely the same. If the 250-lumen M3T HOLA (MN16) with a single stack of 123s operates at 6.80 volts and 2.48 amps, it makes sense that the M6 HOLA (MN21) at 500 lumens would operate at twice the current and the same voltage, because the M6 has _two_ stacks of 123s. Another way of saying it is that the voltage drop of the 123s is the same for a MN16 on one stack of cells as it is for the MN21 on two stacks of cells.

Anyway, these are my thoughts. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Paul


----------



## js (Dec 9, 2004)

*Re: The SF M6-R: a regulated rechargeable SF M6 (H*

PaulW,

*EXCELLENT!* This reasoning (maximum current draw from two stacks vs. one stack yielding same voltage) is what made me think that the MN16 would be the LOLA of choice for the M6-R. But then pyro's measurement made me wary. OK. So, yeah, the MN16 is again the favorite candidate.

Hello everyone,

Sorry I haven't been posting lately, but my back injury has flared up again and I have been more or less down and out for the past five days or so. This has set my M6-R work back a bit, but I will be starting in on it again in earnest, and I'm still confident that I can get the field test units out before the New Year starts, unless my back goes "out" again. I have my fingers crossed.


----------



## brightnorm (Dec 9, 2004)

*Re: The SF M6-R: a regulated rechargeable SF M6 (H*

Jim,

Sorry about your back, I know how miserable that can be. Years ago in a more medically ignorant time I lay in bed for two months to avoid surgery.

Feel better,
Brightnorm


----------



## Prolepsis (Dec 9, 2004)

*Re: The SF M6-R: a regulated rechargeable SF M6 (H*

Jim: Sorry to hear about your back. Hope you feel better soon.

There's no rush on field tests or producing the mods, IMHO--your health comes first. 

In addition, with the Christmas postal rush, you should relax and enjoy time with your family, since packages will be slow in transit anyhow. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif


----------



## PaulW (Dec 10, 2004)

*Re: The SF M6-R: a regulated rechargeable SF M6 (H*

[ QUOTE ]
*Earlier, I said:*
Jim,

Great work. I guess I'll just have to get an M6 now -- no excuses not to. 

I would be in for the pack and cable. I believe my Maha C777 Plus-II will handle charging. (If anyone thinks not, I'd like to know.)

I'm looking forward to hearing more as testing continues. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbsup.gif

Paul 

[/ QUOTE ]

That's changed. I now have an M6 on the way. So, I'll probably be wanting *two* rechargeable packs. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Paul


----------



## Topper (Dec 11, 2004)

*Re: The SF M6-R: a regulated rechargeable SF M6 (H*

Take your time get better I know first hand what that can feel like.
Topper /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif


----------



## pyro (Dec 11, 2004)

*Re: The SF M6-R: a regulated rechargeable SF M6 (H*

My voltage measurements were wrong,
the MN16 spould be a fine choice for LOLA.

Sorry for the confusion /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif


----------



## PaulW (Dec 11, 2004)

*Re: The SF M6-R: a regulated rechargeable SF M6 (H*

Pyro,

Thanks for making those measurements. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Paul


----------



## js (Dec 14, 2004)

*Re: The SF M6-R: a regulated rechargeable SF M6 (H*

Hello everyone,

Sorry for the delay in posting an update, but I've been more or less down for the count due to my back injury. I am sorry to say that I will not be able to send out the field testers' M6-R kits until after Christmas, although I will be able to post pictures and descriptions of the newer. sleeker, smaller charger (with more effective heatsink) and smaller, lighter, universal switching powersupply.

Thanks everyone, and I'll keep posting updates here. Happy Holidays!


----------



## Raindrop (Dec 14, 2004)

*Re: The SF M6-R: a regulated rechargeable SF M6 (H*

js,

I would be interested in a complete Turnkey setup with charger and two battery packs. This would give me a great excuse to buy an M6 once you have them available. Please add me to your email notification list once they are actually available.

Thanks,

~Greg


----------



## js (Dec 14, 2004)

*Re: The SF M6-R: a regulated rechargeable SF M6 (H*

Greg,

No problem. But please send me an email with the word "notify" in the subject line. That will make it easier for me to get you on the list, and you'll get a reply confirmation email from me.


----------



## CM (Dec 17, 2004)

*Re: The SF M6-R: a regulated rechargeable SF M6 (H*

js, 

OK, this is very cool but have you considered a 2x18650 Li-Ion setup? It's not regulated but it is much cheaper, simpler, and I know it will fit. Li-Ion discharge is flat enough that not having regulation is not a big disadvantage. A custom holder needs to be made. That way, Pilas or bare 18650's can be used and Li-Ion packs more energy per unit volume than NiMH, they can be topped off without the dreaded voltage depression that all Nickel based chemistries possess. I've gathered a bunch of parts to make the holder, just haven't had the time to complete it. Running the HOLA on the bench with 2 2400mAH Li-Ions gave a very nice output identical to using 123's with almost similar runtime to using 6x123's. The best part is being able to use the light for say 10 minutes, and then being able to top off to give you 100% capacity. Do that to a NiMH enough times and you'll get the dreaded "memory" effect. Not to hijack your post but to present another cheaper mod option.


----------



## js (Dec 18, 2004)

*Re: The SF M6-R: a regulated rechargeable SF M6 (H*

CM,

No worries about hijacking the thread. I appreciate your suggestion.

That said, however, I think you will find that I mentioned this possibility in my initial post, and to my mind, boring out an M4 to accept 2 18650's is a more elegant and attractive setup for this lamp/battery combination.

Either way (M4 or M6 w/ 2 18650's) I still prefer my M6-R. The advantages have already been mentioned enough, so I will skip them. But I wanted to address the "memory effect" issue.

*There is no such thing as the "memory effect"!*. In the early days of rechargeable Ni chemistry batteries, sintered plate NiCd's did indeed suffer from a memory effect phenomenon, but only if discharged to the same partial discharge level over and over again (and this would become the new "empty" level). All currently available NiCd and NiMH batteries do NOT exhibit the memory effect.

I routinely utilize my lights in a way that would maximize this phenomenon, because I mostly use them in short bursts and top them off to full charge on a bi-weekly basis. *I have never seen any indication of reduced performance.*

The M6-R is able to be topped up at will, as often as needed, without noticeably reducing performance.

The "memory effect" is a myth that has been perpetuated for various reasons, and it is remarkably tenacious. Do a web search or post a question or do a search on www.rcgroups.com about it, and you will see that all the battery experts agree that there is no such thing.

In any case, if this is going to turn into a longer argument with multiple posts, I suggest that we start a separate thread in the batteries forum and post a link to it in this one. It's possible that I'm wrong, but in my direct experience, and from what I have read, it's a non-issue. I'm happy to learn more about it, though, so feel free to open a "Memory effect" thread and post a link to it below.


----------



## CM (Dec 18, 2004)

*Re: The SF M6-R: a regulated rechargeable SF M6 (H*

js,

It's not "memory effect" it's voltage depression /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif Anyways, I've seen it on NiMH cells that were frequently topped off (it's an Oral B electric toothbrush) and its capacity diminished to the point it only ran about three cycles (one day's worth of brushing) before the motor would really slow down compared to having a full week of use when new. I consider Duracell more of an expert than the guys at the RC groups and they have a document which I post here Duracell on NiMH voltage depression 
It's more acute on Nicads as they say but it's recoverable by appropriate discharging fully and recharging with several cycles. It's real, I've seen it, that's my story and I'm sticking to it. I'm not trying to dis this thread, I just wanted to present a different point of view using a different set of "experts".


----------



## js (Dec 19, 2004)

*Re: The SF M6-R: a regulated rechargeable SF M6 (H*

OK, CM. Not a problem. I'll check it out. Thanks for the link. It's just that I haven't seen hide nor hair of it myself, and as I mentioned, I do things that SHOULD bring it out bigtime, whatever it is called.


----------



## brightnorm (Dec 19, 2004)

*Re: The SF M6-R: a regulated rechargeable SF M6 (H*

I have definitely experienced a memory effect with the M6-R. 

I keep remembering how great it is to have that constant beam.

Brightnorm


----------



## js (Dec 19, 2004)

*Re: The SF M6-R: a regulated rechargeable SF M6 (H*

BN, LOL! Good stuff.

So listen, before my back went on me I did manage to get some things done and partly assembled, and I took two pictures. The first shows the difference in size bewteen the proto-type charging system (which brightnorm has) and the one the rest of the field testers will have. On the left is the newer smaller charger with the lighter smaller universal switching supply. On the right is the prototype with behemoth regulated linear supply. The M6 is in the middle for size comparison.







Next is a picture of the inside of the new circuit box. While things are not soldered and connected, this is probably pretty close to what the layout will be for the field test units, although I am thinking of moving the heat sink. Note that I had to trim the top off a bit for it to fit, but it's still capable of handling quite the heat load, although I haven't tested it yet. (That back thing again--sorry guys. Ah well, getting a lot of thinking about flashlights done. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif )






Anyway, I just wanted to post these pictures, as I don't know when I'll be able to do much of anything more on this project until after Christmas.


----------



## brightnorm (Dec 20, 2004)

*Re: The SF M6-R: a regulated rechargeable SF M6 (H*

JS,

VERY nice! Any chance of a black box? If not, excellent as is.

Feel better.

BN


----------



## brightnorm (Jan 1, 2005)

*Re: The SF M6-R: a regulated rechargeable SF M6 (H*

bmp


----------



## js (Jan 1, 2005)

*Re: The SF M6-R: a regulated rechargeable SF M6 (H*

brightnorm,

Thanks for the bump. I've been meaning to answer your question: YES, I got a black box for your field-tester charging unit (so you can return the proto-type) and also so I could check out the black finish and see how I liked it. Turns out I like it a lot. I think it looks significantly better and it goes nicely with the black power supply. So as long as the finish doesn't flake off when I drill the necessary holes, I'll be making the black box standard for the build run. They also come in grey as well as the plain aluminium, BTW. I should mention that I still think the plain looks pretty good as it is--it's just that the black looks better.

So, here's the situation with my back: I got an MRI and I have a ruptured disc in my lower back and have an appointment with the neurosurgeon on Tuesday of next week. At the moment I'm not in any significant pain (like I was earlier) and my back has "settled down", but I can't really do much in the way of sitting, standing or walking for any length of time. So I'm not even spending much time on-line at CPF (which is sort of a bummer, as I don't have a whole lot else to do! Netflix has come in handy. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif )

From what I have read, this is a common back problem and the surgery to fix it is also frequently performed. For background info, this happened way back in May of 2004 and I've done the whole Physical Therapy and less scary approach, so surgery is probably in order. Anyway, as I understand it, people are up and around and mostly back to normal not long after the surgery, which would be a nice change for me, as I have felt more or less debilitated for the past 6 or 7 months.

So, as you can imagine, M6-R stuff, as well as all other projects are more or less on indefinite hold until I find out more about what's going to happen.

If anyone has any info that might be helpful, feel free to send me a PM or email me at [email protected]

At any rate, when I am feeling up to doing some CPF stuff, I have everything I need to make up the M6-R field tester kits, and, believe you me, I would love to be able to get started on them, but I'll be sure to put my health and back first.

Sorry about the delay and Happy New Year everyone.


----------



## PaulW (Jan 1, 2005)

*Re: The SF M6-R: a regulated rechargeable SF M6 (H*

Jim,

I'm sorry about the delay also. My mouth is watering for an M6-R kit. 

But it's completely understandable that you want to put your health first. You should -- that's the only wise approach. Let me join the many others who wish you the best in your recovery.

Paul


----------



## brightnorm (Jan 1, 2005)

*Re: The SF M6-R: a regulated rechargeable SF M6 (H*

Jim,

If you have exhausted all non-surgical options and thoroughly checked out your neurosurgeon then and only then does surgery make sense (unless you have sudden loss of bladder/bowel function and immediate surgery is mandatory). When I had this condition my right calf atrophied to the point where it almost disappeared and I could barely walk even when the pain was only moderate but I was determined to avoid surgery and after lying in bed for two months and becoming addicted to certain drugs my condition somehow got better. 

That was long ago during more primitive times and if it happened today I would probably opt for surgery. I have two friends who went through it and both had significant improvement; one was completely "cured" and the other rated his improvement as "at least a B+ or A-". 

I'm certainly no expert but I do know that it is important to have a surgeon who has done many of these procedures, but I'm sure you know that. Please take it easy, get well and have beautiful flashlight dreams and fantasies. Remember, the "R" in "M6-R" stands for *R*est and *R*ecovery!

Brightnorm


----------



## js (Jan 1, 2005)

*Re: The SF M6-R: a regulated rechargeable SF M6 (H*

BN,

Thanks for the advice; I hear you.

PaulW,

Thanks for the well-wishing. Thanks very much. As for the M6-R, don't worry, you'll get one (or actually, two, right?). The M6 is a pretty nice light, isn't she?


----------



## PaulW (Jan 1, 2005)

*Re: The SF M6-R: a regulated rechargeable SF M6 (H*

Jim,

He he. Yeah, the M6 is one heckuva light. But the 123s just don't do the job IMO. They're expensive, and the voltage does sag with the HOLA. 

But even with the LOLA it is bright -- brighter and even cheaper to run than the M3 with HOLA. I'm glad that your project inspired me to stop just thinking about an M6 and to finally get one. Even without the M6-R capability, I'm having fun putting this baby to good use!

Paul /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

E D I T . . . Enjoy those DVDs while you have the chance.


----------



## naromtap (Jan 6, 2005)

*Re: The SF M6-R: a regulated rechargeable SF M6 (H*

Jim, I'm sorry to read of your back problem, I wish you better, hopefully soon. 
I am now in a position to committ to one of your M6-R kits so I'll keep my eyes peeled for any sign up lists that may appear, thanks, Pat.


----------



## js (Jan 6, 2005)

*Re: The SF M6-R: a regulated rechargeable SF M6 (H*

Pat,

Thanks. I've been more or less out of serious pain for a week or so now, and I've been ramping up my activity level and doing my exercises. The neurosurgeon informed me that I really don't have a ruptured disc and that there is no call for back surgery. Not sure why my primary doctor's office called and told me that I did if I didn't but WHATEVER. I have given up the notion that there is any quick fix for my back problem and have accepted that I will just have to continue to find ways to live with it and gradually improve it. As soon as I'm able I'm going to start doing Yoga again and I'll being seeing a chiropractor and facing North while standing on one leg while juggling three grey squirrels (with one eye closed). That should help.

OK. Enough of that. Since there is no reason for me to think lying around is making my situation any better, I have picked up again on my CPF projects. Specifically, I have started to work on the M6-R kits for the field testers.

So let me make sure I got this right: Prolepsis is the only one who does NOT need a charger. Is that right? pyro and Catdaddy: you both need (or want) a fast charger, right? Let me know.


----------



## PaulW (Jan 6, 2005)

*Re: The SF M6-R: a regulated rechargeable SF M6 (H*

Jim,

Good news to hear that no surgery is needed and that you are able to slowly gear up again. Yup, yoga can be a great help.

Regarding M6-R need for me, I think I'll want *two battery packs and one charger*. Although I have a Maha C777 Plus-2 charger, I'll want a dedicated one for the M6. I'm planning to pack everything in a case for transportability.

Paul


----------



## js (Jan 6, 2005)

*Re: The SF M6-R: a regulated rechargeable SF M6 (H*

Paul,

Got it! But just to prevent a bunch of similar posts, I was wondering about the field testers only for the moment, as those are the only three kits I am making up right now. BTW, I love the idea of making an M6-R case. Cool. Will it be filled with foam with indentations formed to match the pieces? And be sure to make a really hip label for it. hehe.


----------



## cy (Jan 6, 2005)

*Re: The SF M6-R: a regulated rechargeable SF M6 (H*

Js, Get well soon..

forgot to add, I'll be happy to toast one of those packs /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif already got a charger


----------



## PaulW (Jan 6, 2005)

*Re: The SF M6-R: a regulated rechargeable SF M6 (H*

[ QUOTE ]
*js said:*
. . . I was wondering about the field testers only for the moment, as those are the only three kits I am making up right now. BTW, I love the idea of making an M6-R case. Cool. Will it be filled with foam with indentations formed to match the pieces? . . . 

[/ QUOTE ]

Okay. I thought it was strange that you would be taking a poll of orders so soon. My mistake.

Foam indentations? OMG yes. Definitely. Maybe even a little light in the lid that comes on when I open the case to change power packs in the dark. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

I got the idea from Ginseng's L4 EDC Rig.

Paul


----------



## Prolepsis (Jan 7, 2005)

*Re: The SF M6-R: a regulated rechargeable SF M6 (H*

[ QUOTE ]
*js said:*
OK. Enough of that. Since there is no reason for me to think lying around is making my situation any better, I have picked up again on my CPF projects. Specifically, I have started to work on the M6-R kits for the field testers.

So let me make sure I got this right: Prolepsis is the only one who does NOT need a charger. Is that right? pyro and Catdaddy: you both need (or want) a fast charger, right? Let me know. 

[/ QUOTE ]

Jim:

Glad to hear you are feeling somewhat better. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

I have a smart charger, so as long as I have some means to connect the battery to my charger (two holes for two wires to enter, for lack of a better term), I'm good. Otherwise I'll take a charger. Either way is fine, since I plan to order a second battery pack post field testing (so I could make do with a charger).

During the holidays, I managed to acquire a second M6. I'm looking forward to having side-by-side beamshots throughout the runtime for the two. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Thanks,
eric


----------



## Tecstar1 (Jan 8, 2005)

*Re: The SF M6-R: a regulated rechargeable SF M6 (H*

Jim,

The review by Brightnorm is very promising. If the reviews from the other beta testers come back as positive as well, and you are going to take it to production, please put me down for one,

Thanks,

Ron


----------



## Starlight (Jan 19, 2005)

*Re: The SF M6-R: a regulated rechargeable SF M6 (H*

Jim,
Okay, we have left you alone for more than a week. We need more news to keep us going.


----------



## js (Jan 19, 2005)

*Re: The SF M6-R: a regulated rechargeable SF M6 (H*

Starlight,

So true . . . Sorry. I was hoping to be able to post a picture of my work in progress tonight, but hey, words will convey the information if not as much excitement.

By this evening I will have completed all of the end-to-end soldering and wrapping in kapton tape, and the packs will be in the first stage of glueing and drying. Plus, one pack is fully glued together, and I will make the electrical connections to it and start it's break-in trickle charge.

I hope to mail out Prolepsis's M6-R pack and connector (to allow connection of the pack to a stand alone fast-charger) by early next week (Monday or Tuesday), with the other kits following soon after.

Unfortunately, I promised to sell complete TigerLights on B/S/T months ago and some of my time has been taken up with getting them ready and listed and shipped and so on. Plus, I have a couple other flashlight related comittments. But don't worry, I'm getting pretty impatient to get the M6-R field testing started. It's going to be soon.


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## js (Jan 29, 2005)

*Re: The SF M6-R: a regulated rechargeable SF M6 (H*

Hello everyone,

I'm sorry but I've been unable to meet the schedule I set for myself. My wife has been sick and I've been swamped with other projects. That's the bad news.

BUT, the good news is that I'm done with the other commitments I had and I'm cruising along now and am making excellent progress. All of the packs are put together and I will be completing them this weekend, as well as at least one of the charging systems. This means that I will be starting to mail out the field test kits soon. Very soon. Within a week or two all of them should be on their way into the "FIELD".

Thanks for being patient everyone and I apologize for the delay.


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## brightnorm (Jan 29, 2005)

*Re: The SF M6-R: a regulated rechargeable SF M6 (H*

Jim,

I'm glad you're better and sorry your wife is sick. You're like me and my GF, we take turns being out of commission.

Brightnorm


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## Topper (Jan 29, 2005)

*Re: The SF M6-R: a regulated rechargeable SF M6 (H*

Take good care of your Wife I for one can wait for the M6-R
Topper /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif


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## PaulW (Jan 30, 2005)

*Re: The SF M6-R: a regulated rechargeable SF M6 (H*

Thanks for the update. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbsup.gif


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## js (Feb 1, 2005)

*Re: The SF M6-R: a regulated rechargeable SF M6 (H*

Prolepsis's pack is almost assembled and is fully broken-in and cycled. I just have to put it the rest of the way together this evening and make up the connector cord which goes to a stand alone charger, and I can pack it up and mail it out on Wednesday.

I have also made good progress on the other packs. At the moment I need to start them on their break-in 16 hour .1C slow charges.

So, the short version of all of that is that pretty soon field testing should begin.


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## js (Feb 2, 2005)

*Re: The SF M6-R: a regulated rechargeable SF M6 (H*

Prolepsis's pack is completed, tested, and working flawlessly, but I didn't get it done and tested in time to pack it up for mailing this afternoon. I may be able to pack it up after work and get it in the mail before 6 pm, but otherwise certainly by tomorrow afternoon.

I had to relearn a few techniques and order of operations, and screwed up a couple steps and had to redo them. Frankly, it was very stressful. Everything is so tightly packed in and there is constant danger of shorting out the LVR or a battery stack unless you do everything just so. I actually did very briefly short out the outputs of the LVR. hehe. I lost my cool at that point and took the Lord's name in vain and said other choice phrases which my wife was unhappy about. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif

When everything was together and I went to turn on, I really wasn't at all sure that it would work. If I _had_ blown the power FET, nothing would happen. What an ordeal.

But, let me say, it was all worth it! What a beautiful beam! What a beautiful light! And all of it guilt-free and sustained at the perfect pitch of brightness and whiteness. It's quite a feeling; almost the same as when I first succeeded and made the proto-type M6-R pack. Quite a euphoric high.

OK. I'm babling. Sorry. Onto something important

*Fast soft-start:*

This new faster setting for the soft-start feature is perfect. It is almost not noticeable it is so fast. I'm very pleased with it. I still don't think you could do morse code with this light, but it's almost that fast.

pyro's and Catdaddy's M6-R's will be done in a week or so, I hope. I will be emailing or PMing you guys with the total costs sometime before the weekend. I need to figure weights and shipping costs to Germany.


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## rocketmaninphx (Feb 2, 2005)

*Re: The SF M6-R: a regulated rechargeable SF M6 (H*

I still want to be in line for one of these....

Let us know when and $$


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## js (Feb 2, 2005)

*Re: The SF M6-R: a regulated rechargeable SF M6 (H*

rocketman,

Send me an email with the word "NOTIFY" in the subject line, and I will send you an email a week or two before the signup thread opens. Please note that this is NOTIFY list is NOT a signup thread and entails no commitment or exchange of funds. You don't need to be on the list and you don't have to buy anything if you ARE on the list. It's simply a service for those people who do not check in on CPF regularly and who are worried that they may miss the opening of the signup thread.

When field testing is done and I am satisfied that everything is ready for prime time, then and only then, I will open up a signup thread in the modders B/S/T forum where people can get in line and tell me what they want and send me money and so on.

So, just sit tight and keep an eye on things. It's still too early to buy anything (except for field testers).

Everyone else,

I just remembered a couple things: I will be ordering an MN16 M3T HOLA to see if it will work as an M6-R LOLA. I will be testing it in a 3" Carley reflector so that if it explodes I won't ruin my $100+ turbo head, but only a $15 Carley reflector. If this goes well, I will start testing it in my M6, and if THIS goes well, I will suggest that those field testers who have MN16's try them out as well.

Also, I will be trying out the MN20 to see how it performs, but I doubt it will have a decent CCT at 6.8 volts because it is designed to run significantly higher than this. We shall see.


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## Prolepsis (Feb 2, 2005)

*Re: The SF M6-R: a regulated rechargeable SF M6 (H*

Awesome, thank you Jim!

I will be posting my impressions of the startup time/feature as I can compare it directly to an M6 with normal batts.

Let's hope mailing to Canada = relatively fast. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif


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## js (Feb 2, 2005)

*Re: The SF M6-R: a regulated rechargeable SF M6 (H*

Prolepsis,

Your M6-R pack and charging connector cable are on their way to you even now. The postal employee told me 4-6 days. It's going Global Priority mail. Let's hope no over-zealous customs agent holds it up or something like that. I've heard some disturbing rumours about this sort of thing.

Also, I was wondering, should the field tester results, reports, reviews, pictures, comments, and so forth, be in this thread, or should I start an "M6-R Field Tester" thread or something? What does everyone think?


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## Starlight (Feb 2, 2005)

*Re: The SF M6-R: a regulated rechargeable SF M6 (H*

Jim, please start a new thread for the field test.


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## Topper (Feb 2, 2005)

*Re: The SF M6-R: a regulated rechargeable SF M6 (H*

Starlight, its 
Jim he's dead. or
He's dead Jim.
never ever did Bones ask Capt. James T. Kirk to post a new thread.
please forgive I could not stop myself.
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crackup.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crackup.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crackup.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crackup.gif


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## Andreas (Feb 3, 2005)

*Re: The SF M6-R: a regulated rechargeable SF M6 (H*

I would like one of these also!! Please let me know what I would need to do???

Thanks

andreas


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## js (Feb 3, 2005)

*Re: The SF M6-R: a regulated rechargeable SF M6 (H*

[ QUOTE ]
*Andreas said:*
I would like one of these also!! Please let me know what I would need to do???

Thanks

andreas 

[/ QUOTE ]

See my post about 6 or 7 posts above. Thanks for your interest, BTW!

OK. I have started a field testing thread Please check it out. [Edit]This also has a non-broken/fixed link in it to brightnorm's review for those of you browsing this thread after the Vbul. software conversion[/edit]


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## JimH (Feb 4, 2005)

*Re: The SF M6-R: a regulated rechargeable SF M6 (H*

With so many M6 owners following this thread, I figured this would be the place to ask a M6 question.

What are the diameter and length of the standard M6 battery holder. I'm curious if it would fit in a FM fat D. If so, I could make a poor man's M6 using a WA1111 for a computed bulb lumens of 720.


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## tvodrd (Feb 4, 2005)

*Re: The SF M6-R: a regulated rechargeable SF M6 (H*

Hi Jim,

The one in front of me is 1.450" dia X 3.635" long. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/nana.gif

Larry


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## JimH (Feb 5, 2005)

*Re: The SF M6-R: a regulated rechargeable SF M6 (H*

Larry,

Thanks for the info. You never cease to amaze me. The king of the small LED lights showing up to contribute on a hot wire mod site - who woulda thought. You are truely a renaisance man.

Okay, suckup mode off /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/nana.gif, but I do appreciate the info.


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## js (Feb 8, 2005)

*Re: The SF M6-R: a regulated rechargeable SF M6 (H*

Catdaddy and pyro,

Did you get the PM's I sent? You are still interested in field testing, yes? If not, it's no problem, just let me know ASAP.


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## js (Feb 8, 2005)

*Re: The SF M6-R: a regulated rechargeable SF M6 (H*

OK. Per the new policy, would everyone please continue any and all posting in The SF M6-R - Part 2

Thanks.


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## Darell (Feb 8, 2005)

*Re: The SF M6-R: a regulated rechargeable SF M6 (H*

Locked, see above.


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