# Mod-a-mag, whats the brightest?



## Cevulirn (Aug 4, 2006)

Well, I got my Roar of the Pelican functioning, but I'm not entirely satisfied with it. Whats the brightest that one can go in a Mag? I'm currently using a 4d as a host. I guess what I'm looking for is a light thats bright enough that if I hit someone with it at night, they will end up curled up on the floor saying 'Don't hurt me! Don't hurt me!' My other choice for dealing with a home intruder is a .45, I'd like a less lethal option.


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## leeleefocus (Aug 4, 2006)

If you are running the rop bulbs on anything less than 6 NI-MH (7.2V) then it will not be very impressive. Also as far as i know alkaline batteries cannot supply enough current to the high output bulbs(i'm not sure if you are using alkalines or not) The standard ROP setup is to use a 2D mag host and change the reflector to an aluminium one and put a glass lens in it then get yourself a 6AA to 2D adaptor and you should get a pretty blinding output from this. Some people run there ROP's on 7AA's but you must rest the batteries after they have come of the charger for about a day otherwise the bulb will get smoked.


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## Delvance (Aug 4, 2006)

The brightest usable magmods imho are the ones using 100W bulbs and overdriving them. You can quite easily make a 250W magmod, but it won't be very usable...things will heat up super quick and melt, basically all forms of nasties you don't want.

With the 100W+ config, they are still usable in that runtime can be around 10 minutes and it will take the light a few minutes to heat up to unholdable hot. Try a search on mag100, mag138, mag625 etc. Plenty of threads and info on various builds. Might be worthwhile taking a look at the new IRC lamps too. There should be a recent thread on this in this section of the forum. GL.


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## mudman cj (Aug 4, 2006)

The brightest mags can create as much as 3000-4600 lumens at the bulb. These typically use either a Welch Allyn 64625 or 64623, or an Osram IRC Halostar 50 or 65W lamp overdriven beyond specs. They use regulators to prevent instaflash and with high drain cells can run the bulb to the limits for most of the battery pack life. You can get them to run direct drive as well, but will not be able to push them as hard and will experience more of a drop in voltage as the cells run down.


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## VWTim (Aug 4, 2006)

FWIW, don't think of using the light that bright to blind an intruder. It'll also blind you as well. I tried a night shoot course with my Mag85 for a few drills. It was useless, made the whole range light up, I lost what little night vision I had prior and the front half of my gun dissapeared. I've since settled on 50-150 Lumens for indoor "tactical" usage.
But my Mag138 really is impressive, ~2800 lumens for 7-9 minutes.


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## Cevulirn (Aug 4, 2006)

I'm currently running 6 sub-c cells on the high bulb. I've already replaced the reflector and lense, so I guess the only thing left to melt is the switch, right? I seem to recall mention of heatsinks to help delay such an event.


Mudman, your information is tantalizing. Where might I be able to get such bulbs? I'm guessing that its basicly a mag-85 conversion with a brighter bulb, right? So all I would need is a regulated switch, and a coversion for the bi-pin bulbs, and a new battery configuration, right?


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## Delvance (Aug 5, 2006)

mudman cj said:


> These typically use either a Welch Allyn 64625 or 64623,


 
The 64625 and 64623 are Osram bulbs. Don't try a search with Welch Allyn 64625 etc, you won't get much info i don't think.


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## Delvance (Aug 5, 2006)

Cevulirn said:


> I'm currently running 6 sub-c cells on the high bulb. I've already replaced the reflector and lense, so I guess the only thing left to melt is the switch, right? I seem to recall mention of heatsinks to help delay such an event.
> 
> 
> Mudman, your information is tantalizing. Where might I be able to get such bulbs? I'm guessing that its basicly a mag-85 conversion with a brighter bulb, right? So all I would need is a regulated switch, and a coversion for the bi-pin bulbs, and a new battery configuration, right?


 
The switch should be fine if you take it apart and clean the contacts and progold them etc. You don't need a heatsink for a 100W+ light, although it wouldn't hurt either.

Bulbs you can find on various online lighting suppliers. I believe http://www.bulbconnection.com/ is good for US residents (their international shipping is quite a bit however).

A [email protected] is around 35 watts...it doesn't even come into play when faced with 100W+ lights. 

You don't need to use a regulator but it is preferable. AWR sells them over at in the "custom..." section iirc.

Conversion for the bipin bulb...you're probably best off getting the KIU socket, or getting the hotdriver (regulator) from AWR along with the KIU option as well. This gives very low resistance and excellent heat resistance.

I'd suggest planning a budget first, research the various bulbs and decide on one. Then decide on a suitable battery solution and finally buy/create a host for it. Alot of the configs used by these 100W+ lights require boring of the light body to fit large cells.

Have a look at some of the 35, 50 and 75W bulbs too. They can also be quite devastating when a good one is selected for overdriving.


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## Delvance (Aug 5, 2006)

Cevulirn said:


> I'm currently running 6 sub-c cells on the high bulb. I've already replaced the reflector and lense, so I guess the only thing left to melt is the switch, right? I seem to recall mention of heatsinks to help delay such an event.
> 
> 
> Mudman, your information is tantalizing. Where might I be able to get such bulbs? I'm guessing that its basicly a mag-85 conversion with a brighter bulb, right? So all I would need is a regulated switch, and a coversion for the bi-pin bulbs, and a new battery configuration, right?


 
The switch should be fine if you take it apart and clean the contacts and progold them etc. You don't need a heatsink for a 100W+ light, although it wouldn't hurt either.

Bulbs you can find on various online lighting suppliers. I believe http://www.bulbconnection.com/ is good for US residents (their international shipping is quite a bit however).

A [email protected] is around 35 watts...it doesn't even come into play when faced with 100W+ lights. 

You don't need to use a regulator but it is preferable. AWR sells them over at in the "custom..." section iirc.

Conversion for the bipin bulb...you're probably best off getting the KIU socket, or getting the hotdriver (regulator) from AWR along with the KIU option as well. This gives very low resistance and excellent heat resistance.

I'd suggest planning a budget first, research the various bulbs and decide on one. Then decide on a suitable battery solution and finally buy/create a host for it. Alot of the configs used by these 100W+ lights require boring of the light body to fit large cells.

Have a look at some of the 35, 50 and 75W bulbs too. They can also be quite devastating when a good one is selected for overdriving.


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## mudman cj (Aug 5, 2006)

Yeah - Delvance is right. The 64625 and 64623 are made by Osram-Sylvania. Sorry about that.  I looked at making one of these 100W+ lights, but decided to settle on a Mag-85 variation that I came up with instead - I didn't like the idea of having a fire starter (well, part of me did) around the house. I have been told that without a finned head the light would only run about 3 mins before kicking in the overheat protection of a regulation circuit, but there are solutions that don't require a driver... By the time you factor in the cost of a bored and finned host, a driver, battery pack, reflector, lens, etc. you could spend $300 on one of these. I might upgrade my light to a higher power level one day, but I think 1000+ lumens out the front should satisfy for a while. Good luck!


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## VWTim (Aug 5, 2006)

FWIW, I've got a Mag74, Mag85, and Mag138. Between the 2 "junior" hotwires I like the 74 the best. It has a hotdriver, so I don't have to ever worry about instaflash, plus the bulb runs much whiter than the Mag85, even on CBP's. I am contemplating putting a PIR in the Mag85, then 12 cell for runtime. Then again I might just try to trade it off for an L4 as the 74 and 138 w/ 610 (50watt) option should cover my bases.


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## Cevulirn (Aug 6, 2006)

Could you tell me more about the Mag 138?

Also, I'm new to this. Ask me to tie silver into a turks head knot, and I'll do it for ya. Ask me about drivers (For flashlights,) and I'm clueless, and I don't even know where to find them.

Thanks,
Cevulirn


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## VWTim (Aug 6, 2006)

Sure, there are lots of posts about them in AWR's hotdriver FS thread, but it's soo long it's hard to wade thru. Here's the basic setup.
Bored 3D mag
Fivemega 12AA-3D battery holder
12 CBP1650's, best 12 of 15 cells
I bought the hotdriver from Andrew as a full kit already install in a switch host with the Kiu socket attached.
LOP reflector, althought I want to try a MS
Borofloat lens

I've never ran it for more than a minute or so, but that thing is bright, I also have a couple 64610 50 bulbs to try out when more runtime is needed.


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## Cevulirn (Aug 6, 2006)

I could I use 12 aa in an un-bored mag as well, right? That would save me quite a bit if I just 'Upgraded my RoP. Could the same setup be used with a lesser bulb to get RoP like brightness, and battery life?

And Is there another thread that I could read that has most of this info? When I did a search, what I found came across quite scattershot. I'll try to find 'Andrew's' kit, and the battery holders and such now.

*edit*

So, it looks like if I spent $70 on Andrew's high power driver with Kiu, then all I would need is the bulb and batteries/holders, I already have the lense and reflector.) Right?


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## VWTim (Aug 6, 2006)

Well, I found out that the CBP1650's will fit 4 wide in an unbored mag. But if you use FiveMega's 12AA holder it's designed for a bored body. But with some sanding to the holder I'm pretty sure it would work. BUT, last I checked FM 12AA holders weren't being made. So then you're left with doing a holder build using a Modamag kit and modify it like AWR and others have. You can try searching for Mag100, Mag138, Mag625 or even a search on 62138 bulb might get you to a Mag100 thread.

Yup, the AWR Kiu kit, pus batteries/holder in the appropriate host for the holder is what you'd need. Just be carefull, these lights can turn newspaper into fire in a seconds. They put out a lot of heat.


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## Cevulirn (Aug 6, 2006)

VWTim said:


> Yup, the AWR Kiu kit, pus batteries/holder in the appropriate host for the holder is what you'd need. Just be carefull, these lights can turn newspaper into fire in a seconds. They put out a lot of heat.



Oohh.... ME LIKE!!!


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## 5645cds (Aug 8, 2006)

Does anyone if there is a ROP bi-pin equivalent bulb available? I know the bulb is potted due it being made for a specific Pelican light but are there any bi-pin options?


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## andrewwynn (Aug 9, 2006)

for a 4D host.. hmmm. my favorite 4D is using 4xD LiON but they are not available anymore.. however.. let me do a bit of math.. 

4xD = 62mm x 4 = 248mm.. 

divide by 43 = 5.76.. means i can fit 15x GP2000 cells vertical if i can get the light tri-bored (not too likely).. but.. divide by 50 and get 4.96 means i can fit 15xAA in the light without boring. 

I have a battery pack solution just around the corner that can easily hold 15 cells in a 4D host if my math worked out correctly (i'm sure the tailcap spring can forgive that extra 2 mm!).. with 15 cells now you can direct-drive the IRC lamps.. see this post i just typed.

You would not need a regulator to run the IRC lamp from 15 cells, though i personally still would.. just for the thermal protection and the low-voltage protection not to mention there still is a heck of a startup voltage spike and current spike w/o using one. 

Yet another possibility is to work out a series-parallel solution.. if you can get 4-wide into the host (i've heard rumors the new CBP1650s will fit).. you can make a series-parallel pack to get 5 tall, 4 wide in there.. that will get you 10 cells of voltage but with about 3AH.. and 10 cells which is absolutely ideal for running a regulated 1185 solution (much nicer than 9 cell solutions).. you can run the lamp at over 11V.. (11.5 = 1000L).. on the order of twice the output you have now.

So.. there are some ideas... keep us posted on your solution.

-awr


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## jar3ds (Aug 24, 2006)

andrewwynn said:


> for a 4D host.. hmmm. my favorite 4D is using 4xD LiON but they are not available anymore.. however.. let me do a bit of math..
> 
> 4xD = 62mm x 4 = 248mm..
> 
> ...


 thats an excellent idea AWR!

Now... any idea where to get a series-parallel pack for 5 tail by 4 wide to fit into my 4D?

Thanks!


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## andrewwynn (Aug 24, 2006)

not really soon.. but s-p are easy to make.. i've made them before by cutting the top off a D battery and using magnets! I have a battery pack about to come out but it's 3->3 not 4->D.. if there is a place for the 4->D i will make that one as well. 

-awr


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## jar3ds (Aug 25, 2006)

i wish we could get an absolute answer if 4 new 1650's can fit in a stock maglite...

I would love the idea of a Mag85 w/ twice the runtime in a 4D form


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## VWTim (Aug 25, 2006)

jar3ds said:


> i wish we could get an absolute answer if 4 new 1650's can fit in a stock maglite...
> 
> I would love the idea of a Mag85 w/ twice the runtime in a 4D form



YES, at least they fit in all my different colored of unbored mags BUT, the FM 12AA holder is designed for a bored body. I'm assuming the Modamag holders would be just fine tho.


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## jar3ds (Aug 25, 2006)

thanks Tim your the man! :rock:


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## jar3ds (Aug 25, 2006)

andrewwynn said:


> not really soon.. but s-p are easy to make.. i've made them before by cutting the top off a D battery and using magnets! I have a battery pack about to come out but it's 3->3 not 4->D.. if there is a place for the 4->D i will make that one as well.
> 
> -awr


 from lining up 4D's to 5AA's... there isn't much room there to play with... It'll be a tight fit if someone can do it...

if anyone makes such a beast i'll buy it ASAP


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## Northern Lights (Aug 25, 2006)

You caught my attention! I have been researching the options for a hot wire. I want *more than a ROP* too but still have 1 hour+ burn time. Originally I had an interested in a 2C ROP LE. I think I will settle for a 2D on parallel 18650 2600mAh. 
Which power supply will give the best run time in the 7.2 volt catagory, Li-ions or NiCd or NiMah? I will go up to a 4 D host. I will use the AWR kiu/hot driver. 
Now *which lamp* Phillips 6751 or WA 1160? *BTW What does a 6751 do in a stock Magcharger*? I am familiar with the 1160 in a MC. Gotta better suggestion for the type of torch I am seeking? 
AW has created a beautiful spreadsheet on WA bulb applications. Thank you AW, I admire your accomplishments and wisdom, well done, sir. Thank you again in advance for your comment on this inquest. So to all of you, who have created these mods, help, please, I cannot decide the direction to go. Maybe this is an excuse to keep building and comparing.


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## andrewwynn (Aug 25, 2006)

the '5761' will be very under-driven from a MC battery sorry to say... makes it very inefficient .. even the 1160 is pretty inefficient from 6V source.

The problem with MC solutions you are describing.. you won't get nearly 1 hr runtime with a high output lamp.. the 1160 pulls about 3.7A and the 5761 will pull about 4.8A.. the stock packs are like 2.4A and i think you can get 3.2A pack.. that still won't run anywhere near an hour, especially attempting to use the 5761. 

the same applies to 2D solutions since obviously only a smaller battery can fit... i've just invented how to fit a 3AH pack into a stock 2D maglite.. an 1111 solution would probably be about 45 minutes runtime.. but if you use the 1316 lamp (13W).. you get about 90+min runtime.

power is inversely proportional to runtime... so you have to determine first.. what is your runtime need.. if you only need 20-30 min at a shot (per day for example) than you can have a much brighter light. 

a 13W in a 2D for 90 minutes will be a killer light.. it's still a secret what that battery solution is, it will be posted pretty soon though... it's a killer that it is an UNMODIFIED HOST though! 

consider.. that 6xAA 1650 cells in a 2D will be a 7.2V 1.5AH pack.. my solution is DOUBLE that. 

-awr


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## jar3ds (Aug 25, 2006)

andrewwynn said:


> ...
> 
> consider.. that 6xAA 1650 cells in a 2D will be a 7.2V 1.5AH pack.. my solution is DOUBLE that.
> 
> -awr




:bow: Please share with us your mighty knowledge


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## andrewwynn (Aug 25, 2006)

it'll be coming.. look for my 'awr smartpak' thread which i'll start pretty soon.


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## Northern Lights (Aug 26, 2006)

a 13W in a 2D for 90 minutes will be a killer light.. it's still a secret what that battery solution is said:


> Its worth the wait, I'm in!


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## Northern Lights (Aug 26, 2006)

Thank you, Cevulirn, for the thread, it was right down my alley this week! 

I hope I don't catch on fire, while waiting for AW should I try this; I am so impatient, I really do not have to wait long, do I? Well, if I am wrong please consider I was trained as a biologist, I got side tracked… more than once. OK? AW, hoping you will have a battery holder and cells available. Thank you for the above reply and forgive me for prodding, poking, prying and begging but Boy this is just like shaking Christmas packages, just virtual. 

I wonder how accurate my understanding of the electronics is. 

Six 3.6 Volt AA 900 mAh rechargeable lithium batteries, LC14500 recently became available, maybe some other similar cells are also available. With the invention of the 3 AA to 1 D holder or 6 AA to 2 D holder this combination looks possible. 

2x 3.6V AA is 7.2 volts at .9Ah.
3x each set is 2.7 Ah for six batteries at 7.2V
7.2x2.7= 19.44 or 19 watts.

So this is right on for AW’s “DOUBLE that” as 7.2Vx1.5Ah= 10 Watts! I saw a thread where 4x18650s were put into a 2D, post 25, well, that is: 

2x 3.6V 18650 is 7.2 volts at 2.6 Ah.
2x each set is 5.2 Ah for the 4 batteries at 7.2V
7.2x5.2= 37.44 or 37 Watts.

Some folks like the 2400 Ah 18650s and that combo is 34 Watts. Could this really be the solution or did I miss something? Maybe AW has more than one invention in mind as how to do this? How does he do it all?

PS, I just bought the host from Wal-Mart and hope to get the other goodies from CPF’rs coming in the next couple of hours! Me, impatient?


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## andrewwynn (Aug 26, 2006)

N.L. i'm betting you mean me (awr).. the R is important because there is a cpf user who sells batteries with the handle 'AW' :-D 

the amazing thing from my new solution is it uses an unmodified host. I didn't say yet exactly the combination of magic parts because it is sssooooooo close to the absolute maximum i want to make 100% sure it fits. 

I'll give you a couple more hints 'cause it'd be fair for you to guess, and it's kinda fun that way too. 

The xxx > D adapter is a gimmie. 
18xxx won't fit even 2-up in an unbored light.. 17xxx will but 2x17xxx aren't more power than 3x14500. 

It will use batteries available on cpf. 

you are saying 'watts' when you mean 'watt-hours' in your post. 

21.6WH is the pack i've come up with.. comparing to the typical 6AA for unmodified 2D.. which is 1.45AH x 7.2V (cbp 1650).. 10.44WH. 

I just looked up the newest cells and it might actually be 23.76WH using the latest, but they might be waaay too long. 

So.. unmodified 2D light.. i think i've got a really amazing combination in the works... i will probably work on getting a turnkey package going with another cpf member.

-awr


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## Northern Lights (Aug 27, 2006)

andrewwynn said:


> N.L. i'm betting you mean me (awr).. the R is important because there is a cpf user who sells batteries with the handle 'AW' :-D
> 
> you are saying 'watts' when you mean 'watt-hours' in your post. -awr


 
Yes and Yes, AWR, thank you. You have been very kind and patient with me.

Yes, this is fun. I am printing this section and will study it out and see if I can find the solution; I will be up most the night I guess. My day off tomorrow, poor Momma, her honey-do list just sank a few pages in the pile.


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## andrewwynn (Aug 27, 2006)

the solution is now public: http://smartpak.rouse.com check it out.

-awr


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## Northern Lights (Aug 31, 2006)

andrewwynn said:


> 21.6WH is the pack i've come up with.. comparing to the typical 6AA for unmodified 2D.. which is 1.45AH x 7.2V (cbp 1650).. 10.44WH.
> 
> I just looked up the newest cells and it might actually be 23.76WH using the latest, but they might be waaay too long.
> 
> ...


 
Just to make sure, which cells for the 23.76 wh?


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## Northern Lights (Aug 31, 2006)

andrewwynn said:


> the '5761' will be very under-driven from a MC battery sorry to say... makes it very inefficient .. even the 1160 is pretty inefficient from 6V source.
> 
> The problem with MC solutions you are describing.. you won't get nearly 1 hr runtime with a high output lamp.. the 1160 pulls about 3.7A and the 5761 will pull about 4.8A.. the stock packs are like 2.4A and i think you can get 3.2A pack.. that still won't run anywhere near an hour, especially attempting to use the 5761.
> 
> ...


 
AWR, I looked at your spread sheet of WA bulbs, various voltage sources. I would have picked the 1160 at 7.2 volts. Why do you suggest the 1111? They look similar on paper to a point but it appears the 1160 can give more lumens but at a cost of bulb life when you use your driver to push it.


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## andrewwynn (Aug 31, 2006)

N.L.. 21.6WH is 2x3 x 14650 cells.. i would actually recommend 14670 'cause you can use protected cells if they fit... but i'll have to build up a tester to see if it will and if so.. what modification might be required to the tailcap etc.

I would actually probably use an 1160 myself .. since it runs at 6.6V so there is some overhead for keeping output constant always. You can not run an 1160 at 7.2V, but you do use a '7.2V' battery pack. 

I used 1111 as the example because it's the 'common' 2D 6AA brightass solution.. it also only runs like 23 minutes normally. 

-awr


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## download (Aug 31, 2006)

My Mag7C with 5x protected 18650 direct drive Osram 64425S 20W, 12V, G4.
Need 2 clicks to start.
4.2V x 5 x 2.1A = 44W around 1 hr runtime. :naughty:


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## andrewwynn (Aug 31, 2006)

SEVEN C! holy cow! do you use a shoulder strap? :-D

btw.. under load.. 3.6-3.7V not 4.2... but that's still nothin' to sneeze at.. fun mod. 

-awr


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## download (Sep 1, 2006)

AWR, you are correct, just checked the underload voltage of 5x 18650 is 18V = 3.6V per cell
3.6V x 5 x 2.1A = 38W around 1 hr runtime. :devil:


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## andrewwynn (Sep 1, 2006)

I use my 5-up D LiON to run my IRC lamps.. i can get away with 18.5V for a good portion of the runtime... if your mod has the KIU socket in it... you can get a LOT more light out of that mod... The IRC osram 25W IRC.. at 18.2V will net you 974L torch.. with 2.66A.. by bumping the output up from 38W to 48W.. you should get a net gain of 623 up to 974L.. 26% more power for 56% more light! 

Oh.. coming soon to a flashlight near you.. a hotdriver mini that fits into a C socket so you can have soft-start and no longer need to double-click your light to turn it on! 

-awr


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## Cevulirn (Sep 1, 2006)

Wow, my thread keept going!

If I get the coin, I really want to find out what I can do with 20 AA batteries in a 4d mag.


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## andrewwynn (Sep 1, 2006)

with CBP1650s it would be possible to run a 250W light for i think we calculated .. 3.5 minutes!

-awr


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## download (Sep 1, 2006)

:bow: :bow: :bow: Hotdriver mini :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:


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## andrewwynn (Sep 1, 2006)

thanks for the vote of confidence.. yes.. well hotdriver mini is 14mm diam and 7.5mm tall sandwich like the LED type.. it can actually be shorter.. that height is just to make it fit normal sammie spaces. it's freakishly small! I'm aiming to include the possibility for direct lamp connection for the likes of putting a 1499 lamp regulated into a minimag.

-awr


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## mdocod (Dec 21, 2008)

Hi wayne21,

This thread is over 2 years old and a lot has changed since back then. Not to mention, this thread really has very little to do with your question as it's primary discussion is alternatives from the ROP, and not the ROP you are asking about. 

From what you are describing, it sounds like you are using AA size Lithium Cobalt cells, 3 in series to run an ROP (roar of the pelican "mag mod" acronym, which uses the Pelican Big D bulbs) bulb. This would not work... I'm not even sure where to begin here... Please read some ROP specific threads to get caught up. Sounds like you are doing dangerous things and are not understanding the configuration options and what those cells can and can't do safely. The minimum safe size for a lithium cobalt cell to be used for an ROP low would have ~1AH of true capacity into a ~2A load. A pair of protected AW brand 17500s would be about the minimum here. For the ROP high, you pretty much either have to go with large format protected cells, like the AW protected C size cell, or move on to different chemistries, like LiMn, or dabble in using unprotected cells. There are lot of options out there but I urge you to do some serious research before getting ahead of yourself buyings things. mistreated lithium-ion cells can explode and vent flames and toxic gases. You need to understand safety limitations before you start slapping cells and bulbs together at random.


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