# Australian Customs = :(



## DimeRazorback (Jan 20, 2010)

So after almost 2 months of fearing my CQC-8 being lost, I receive a letter today that it will be destroyed as it was deemed a "Flick Knife" :scowl:

The pivot was tightened by the seller, so I would have to assume they decided to tamper with it.

Not very happy as not only am I out the cash, I am also now concerned about any implications this may have on my records.

Do any of you Aussie's know if a warning letter for trying to import "illegal goods" gets recorded or reported??

They say that it is "recorded", and I assume that would mean on their systems. However I am wondering if it will also show on criminal records?


Cheers! :thumbsup:


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## [email protected] (Jan 20, 2010)

Try join the Australian Knife collectors club or similar and get the paperwork done, or you can buy from an Aussie dealer. Another alternative is to have the seller disassemble the knife and ship it as knife parts.


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## DimeRazorback (Jan 20, 2010)

I was going to join a club, but the CQC-8 was going to be all I needed for a while so I didn't bother 

Isn't hindsight great! 

Do you know anything about the warnings and such??


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## [email protected] (Jan 20, 2010)

DimeRazorback said:


> I was going to join a club, but the CQC-8 was going to be all I needed for a while so I didn't bother
> 
> Isn't hindsight great!
> 
> Do you know anything about the warnings and such??



Sorry Jared, only ever got a 2 dollar DX laser confiscated off me. Don't know much about claims and stuff.


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## DimeRazorback (Jan 20, 2010)

Alrighty, no problem :thumbsup:


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## ackbar (Jan 21, 2010)

[email protected] said:


> Sorry Jared, only ever got a 2 dollar DX laser confiscated off me. Don't know much about claims and stuff.



I once got a letter with my 2 dollar DX knife informing me that it was a prohibited weapon from CBSA.

Boy was I confused. I had a paralegal friend call to ask and the agent was being a real prick. Did I enjoy hearing her chew that guy out. 

Turns out he was being overzealous and someone above his paygrade over ruled him.


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## JaguarDave-in-Oz (Jan 21, 2010)

DimeRazorback said:


> So after almost 2 months of fearing my CQC-8 being lost, I receive a letter today that it will be destroyed as it was deemed a "Flick Knife" :scowl:
> 
> The pivot was tightened by the seller, so I would have to assume they decided to tamper with it.


Australian Customs Officers are very well informed and in general know what's what. Those knives are designed to operate in a certain way and they know it too. One look at the brand allows them to cross reference the manufacturer's website which clearly shows the intended operation of the knife.

A lot more of this type of stuff comes into Australia in the mail than you'd imagine and there is a lot of experience in both detecting it and judging what it really is.

To answer your question as to whether a record will be kept, yes, Australian Customs Service keeps records of Prohibited Imports that are detained, destroyed or otherwise dealt with.

In very loose terms, prohibited flick knives are defined as kives with sprung blades or with blades that open "automatically" by centrifugal force or gravity. In essence - and these following are MY words, not the service's - those prohibitions will cover many articulated knive whose blade is not locked in the closed position by either a spring or a postive lock. Merely having a pivot tightened does not stop a knife (generally) from being opened by centrifugal force and thus being subject to the schedule.

This is my opinion alone and merely speculation, but the fact that you only received a destruction letter means either that the service is going easy on you as a first offender (th emost likely) or they otherwise believe your knife fits into the schedule's definition only at the edges so you may not have realised, otherwise to my mind there was the potential for you being prosecuted under the Customs Act with the ensuing likelihood of the criminal record that often comes with that.

Frankly, my personal opinion is that you're lucky. As to what records the service will keep regarding you and where that leaves you in regards to scrutiny of further importations by mail it would be improper to discuss here but once again, they are going easy on you so you may be lucky in regards to future consequences but I'd seriously advise that you don't consider attempting to import this type of stuff again without prior approval.


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## Th232 (Jan 21, 2010)

That really sucks!

As Dave said, they do keep records. A friend of mine who runs a knife business has had it confirmed to him that there are watchlists, a good number of his packages get opened these days. Come to think of it, about a quarter of the knife collectors I know who import stuff on a regular basis have figured they're on that list.

That said, I'm not sure if you'd be on the watchlist for that one incident, but if you start seeing a higher frequency of parcels with that "Opened by Customs" sticker on them, you'll know.

If there's a knife we're iffy about, we just ask ACS and maybe get a permit just to be safe. Here's their email address: [email protected]


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## JaguarDave-in-Oz (Jan 21, 2010)

Th232 said:


> If there's a knife we're iffy about, we just ask ACS and maybe get a permit just to be safe. Here's their email address: [email protected]


 and to add something to that, please remember that the Australian Customs Service interprets the law requiring a permit from the minister to import goods to which schedule 2 applies as meaning that the permit must exist at the time the goods are landed, not when they get to the consignee - so to ensure there's no potential for a "technical" breach even on "permitted" goods, you need the ministerial permit PRIOR to the goods getting to the international mail exchange.


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## DimeRazorback (Jan 21, 2010)

JaguarDave-in-Oz said:


> Australian Customs Officers are very well informed and in general know what's what. Those knives are designed to operate in a certain way and they know it too. One look at the brand allows them to cross reference the manufacturer's website which clearly shows the intended operation of the knife.
> 
> A lot more of this type of stuff comes into Australia in the mail than you'd imagine and there is a lot of experience in both detecting it and judging what it really is.
> 
> ...




Thanks for the info mate.

I will say however, that I read up on all of the legislation before I decided to get one from the US (as you can buy them locally, but for twice the price) and I did not see it as a breach in any form. So I was taken by surprise to be honest.
If I had any thought that it would get seized, I wouldn't of attempted to import it.
My CQC-7B got through fine, so there is definitely inconsistencies at play, and yes it was checked by an Officer and deemed legal.

At the end of the day, this isn't a flick knife, nor an assisted opening knife, but I respect the decision the officer made.

Like I stated, this was going to be my last knife purchase for a long while, so it is a bad note to end on :laughing:

Could I inquire as to where you got this first hand information?


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## JaguarDave-in-Oz (Jan 21, 2010)

DimeRazorback said:


> I will say however, that I read up on all of the legislation before I decided to get one from the US (as you can buy them locally, but for twice the price) and I did not see it as a breach in any form. So I was taken by surprise to be honest.
> If I had any thought that it would get seized, I wouldn't of attempted to import it.
> 
> At the end of the day, this isn't a flick knife, nor an assisted opening knife, but I respect the decision the officer made.


The Customs law doesn't look at "assisted opening" as such but an officer looks to see if the knife fits the following definition as per the law itself:

_Flick knives or similar devices, made of any material, that have a blade folded or recessed into the handle which opens automatically by: _
_(a) gravity or centrifugal force; or _
_(b) pressure applied to a button, spring or device in or attached to the handle of the device _

If you feel you have a strong case that proves your knife does not fit that definition I suggest you make immediate contact with the department and make your case.

I'm not able to advise on any aspect of that other than from a personal perspective to say that if I was the officer concerned in intercepting such a device I'd be wanting to interpret it as fitting the definition (because my personal feelign is that such things ARE "similar devices" opening by centrifugal force and should be prohibited) but whether the department itself has policy advice or legal precedent (case law) regarding these particular knives or if yours is merely the subject of an ad hoc decision I couldn't guess.



DimeRazorback said:


> Could I inquire as to where you got this first hand information?


I guess you can enquire.......

I am a retired Customs Officer but please don't take that as an opportunity to ask more specific detail in regards to how these things are treated operationally within the department because I'd be stepping into very murky waters since I signed a binding confidentiality agreement when I left and I'd find it morally wrong to do so anyway.


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## DimeRazorback (Jan 21, 2010)

Thank you for the information mate, much appreciated :thumbsup:

No, I don't plan on fighting it :laughing:


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## JaguarDave-in-Oz (Jan 21, 2010)

I've replied to your PM, could you please let me know if you receive the reply, as it doesn't show up in my sent messages folder. Thanks.


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## DimeRazorback (Jan 21, 2010)

Received and replied! :thumbsup:


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## nutjob (Jan 21, 2010)

Australian customs officers are basically arbitrary and inconsistent. You can try to import a knife that is perfectly legal and they will confiscate it. Other people can import the same legal knife, have customs inspect it and have it pass. Basically, for any given officer there is no motivation to give the importer an even break, they are always better off seizing it. They can get into trouble for not seizing, say by someone showing off what they got past customs but if they seize they can point a large pile of "dangerous" weapons they caught and how well they are doing their jobs.

The system is carefully rigged against people who import. If you read the card you got instead of your knife they tell you that you can appeal their decision but if you lose they are obliged to prosecute you. So thousands of dollars of legal bills, a possible large fine or prison, versus your $6 DX knife.

I wouldn't worry about importing a knife or three and having them taken and having your details recorded. They will not come and kick down your door in the middle of the night unless you are clearly taking the ****, anything less just isn't worth their while investigating.

Australia has some of the most liberal import duty/taxation rules in the world ($900 worth of goods free if they are not for commercial purposes), but their handling of knives is objectionable.


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## Th232 (Jan 22, 2010)

Might as well add in one of my bookmarks, the one page summary for importing knives:

http://www.customs.gov.au/webdata/resources/files/FS_Importing_exporting_knives1.pdf


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## sniper479 (May 11, 2011)

Attack on Australian customs removed.
Norm

This new attack on knives is nothing more than finishing up the complete pacification and disarming of the Australian population. It has NOTHING to do with safety or reducing crime.

That being said. I heard that if a knife is dissembled, customs wont be able to seize it. Is this true? Can anyone who KNOWS tell me?


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## gqlux (Aug 20, 2011)

Hmm, some good info for us Aussies looking to purchase overseas. Ta.

gqlux


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## tazambo (Sep 28, 2011)

Yes, good thread for us Aussies.
BTTT


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## mickay (Nov 9, 2011)

HI

A few points, you will NOT get a permit for a knife Customs have 'deemed' to be a 'flick knife' The Local Police need to get on board to issue such a permit and they will NOT go against Customs.

Customs apply an absurd test that can ONLY be done AFTER the knife arrives, this test has many variations and Customs Officers are NOT trained in it and 'make' up their own versions in addition they keep testing with more and more force till knife opens a total breach of natural Justice. Also they can and have loosened the pivot of knives (I have it in writting from them).

The test itself is not applicable to the Regulations as it does not use Centrafugal Force nor is it a AUTOMATIC opening.

If you dont want to depute the Customs notice that the knife is seized then EVERYONE should make a complaint to the Commonwealth Ombudsman and their Local Federal MP it costs nothing and will NOT result in any Court case, also complain about this abuse of power by Customs to the Australian Commission for Law Enforcement Integrity.

They cannot be permited to continue to take knives and harass innocent citizens who have NO WAY to KNOW what knife will pass or fail this absurd test performed AFTER the knife arrives.

Also place a claim for the cost of the goods seized see the leglisation below.

*CUSTOMS ACT 1901 - SECT 4AB *
*Compensation for acquisition of property* 
(1) If: 
(a) *this Act* would result in an *acquisition of property*; and 
(b) any provision of *this Act* would not be valid, apart from this section, because a particular *person* has not been compensated; 
the Commonwealth must pay that *person*: 
(c) a reasonable amount of compensation agreed on between the *person* and the Commonwealth; or 
(d) failing agreement--a reasonable amount of compensation *determined* by a court of competent jurisdiction. 
(2) Any damages or compensation recovered, or other remedy given, in a proceeding begun otherwise than under this section must be taken into account in assessing compensation payable in a proceeding begun under this section and arising out of the same event or transaction. 
(3) In this section: 
*"acquisition of property" *has the same meaning as in paragraph 51(xxxi) of the Constitution. 
(4) The Consolidated Revenue Fund is appropriated for the purposes of making payments under this section. 

*Australian Constitution - Section 51 - Legislative powers of the Parliament *
The Parliament shall, subject to this Constitution, have power to make laws for the peace, order, and good government of the Commonwealth with respect to:-
(xxxi.) The acquisition of property on just terms from any State or person for any purpose in respect of which the Parliament has power to make laws: 

MK


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## MikeAusC (Nov 9, 2011)

And even if you get the knife in, under current draconian NSW law, if you carry ANY knife in a public place, you will face a $500 fine and 10 year Criminal Record.


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## CheepSteal (Nov 9, 2011)

Sadly this is why I stopped my knife obsession  My name was originally created in BladeForums because I could never afford to buy expensive knives!
However seeing as I'd be paying $100 a pop for a knife in Australia and then not be able to carry it anywhere except my house, that kind of ruined the fun of it for me. The only knives I buy now are multitools as they can legally be imported.


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## mickay (Nov 10, 2011)

Political comment and presumptions deleted - Norm

Really? some people are qualified to make certain statements, but hey sorry anyway.


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## mickay (Nov 10, 2011)

Note that 'Centrifugal Force' is NOT a REAL force and cannot move anything it is a 'perceved force' and ones perception of that force depends on where one is standing.


See link below;

http://science.howstuffworks.com/centrifugal-force-info.htm


http://regentsprep.org/regents/physics/phys06/bcentrif/centrif.htm


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## CheepSteal (Nov 10, 2011)

Try explaining that to Customs over the phone! hahaha


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## Henry50 (Nov 10, 2011)

MikeAusC said:


> And even if you get the knife in, under current draconian NSW law, if you carry ANY knife in a public place, you will face a $500 fine and 10 year Criminal Record.



any knife, without a reasonable excuse.

If you're a teen with a hoodie, expect the full force of the law. If you're anyone else, how would they catch you?


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## mickay (Nov 10, 2011)

Why should we have to explain anything?

No one needs to be a Solicitor or a Physics Prof all one has to do is read plain English.

The Actual Regulation is written as below;

*CUSTOMS (PROHIBITED IMPORTS) REGULATIONS 1956 - SCHEDULE 2 *
*Goods the importation of which is prohibited unless the permission in writing of the Minister or an authorised person has been granted* 
(subregulation 4 (1)) 

Item 
Description of Goods 







19 
Flick knives or similar devices, made of any material, that have a blade folded or recessed into the handle which opens automatically by: 
(a) gravity or centrifugal force; or 
(b) pressure applied to a button, spring or device in or attached to the handle of the device 

For a start the so called description that Customs present on their Web Page is worded different. So what does the REAL text say? Without adding words to change the meaning.

Clearly it is a statement placing import restrictions on SOME 'flick knives' those that display certain attributes. One being a opening handle NOT blade?

NO mention of what a 'fick knife' is, NO mention of Folding Knives, NO mention of any 'test'.

This is NOT a presumption or a guess this is how it reads IN PLAIN ENGLISH.

As mentioned any basic search of the Physics text will show that centrifugal force is a fraud but have a look at the test more than ONE force is involved as well.

And what about AUTOMATIC opening;

*automatic* 
_adj_
*1.* performed from force of habit or without conscious 
thought; lacking spontaneity; mechanical _an automatic 
smile_
*
2.* (Engineering / General Engineering)
*a. (of a device, mechanism, etc.) able to activate, 
move, or regulate itself

b.* (of an act or process) performed by such 
automatic equipment

Clearly no matter what version of the test is used, its ALL human muscle and joint movement and that movement continues till the job is done, stop part way through or dont move fast enough and the knife dont open, in no way is this AUTOMATIC OPENING!

MK


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## mickay (Nov 10, 2011)

A recent Freedom of Information Request (that cost several hundred dollars) from myself to Customs show Customs Officers are NOT trained in the application of this test, evidence from a Physics Expert show Customs 'invented' this test, Clearly each Officer is making up his own version of the test and some keep doing it till the knnife fails in the process subjecting the knife to pressures and forces it ws NEVER designed for and so causing wear that loosens the knife even more.

Of course no one has any idea of this as information of the test is NOT published and even IF it was it would take volumes to cover every version and every different skill level and muscle tone of ALL Customs Officers.

How can a purchaser or for that matter a supplier know all this and supply a lawful knife that will pass?

Even IF the pivot is done up real tight Customs claim to be able to loosen the knife so ensuring a fail, e-mail proof below.

*From:* [Firearms and Weapons Policy] [mailto:[email protected]]
*Sent:* Wednesday, 2 March 2011 8:20 AM
*To:* 
*Cc:* [Firearms and Weapons Policy]
*Subject:* FW: Info [SEC=UNCLASSIFIED]

Dear Mr 

Thank you for your email. 

Customs and Border Protection will onlyloosen the pivot screw (_howmuc_h) on a folding styled knife when it is not possibleto release the blade from the handle using a two handed manualopening method, (_SAYS _w_ho)_ as in the blade can't be released from the handle atall. 
Regards

Tracey O’Shea | Supervisor Firearms & Weapons | AustralianCustoms and Border Protection Service
P: (02) 6245 5478 | F: (02) 6275 6699
E: tracey.o’[email protected]W: www.customs.gov.au 
Important: The advice in this e-mail is for information only and isnot binding on Customs & Border Protection as there may be insufficientinformation to base a decision. If this item is imported the Customs &Border Protection Officer and the Customs & Border Protection Office thatreceives the item for clearance will make the decision as to whether or not therequirements of the Regulations are satisfied.

​
*From:* M
*Sent:* Tuesday, 22 February 2011 18:51
*To:* [Firearms and Weapons Policy]
*Subject:* Re: Info [SEC=UNCLASSIFIED]
To who it may Concer


Are Customs Officers permitted to tamper with FoldingKnives on inspection by using tools to LOSSEN the Piviot Screw so that theknife then fails the 'TEST' as is is presently applied?

IF so is there a policy document on this?

If so IS every Folding Knife imported tampered with insuch a manner?

Thanks for you time.

M


JUSTICE andthe LAW are NOT NECESSARILY the SAME THING


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## mickay (Nov 10, 2011)

Anyone who wants the INTERNAL CUSTOMS GUIDELINES (that they dont follow) obtained via FOI give me a PM.
M


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