# The best computer keyboards ever made - still



## js

I started work here at Cornell's accelerator some 6 or so years ago now, and at the time, we still had some pretty old terminals in the control room. I'm no computer guru, so I can't say what they were, but they went with the VAX's and Alphas we use as servers, and the GUI was "X" (and still is). Along with these very old terminals came keyboards that were large, heavy, and _wonderful!_ It was subtle, but definite, and after only a month or so, I realized that I loved typing on these keyboards that were in the control room. They had an action. They clicked. It was definite and decisive. I could look at the screen and type on the keyboard, and it all came out faster and more accurately than I had ever experienced before with either the PC or Mac keyboards I had used. In fact, the keyboard that was paired with the G3 Mac that also resided in the control room (the one I am typing on right now at this very moment) was decidedly AWFUL! No feel, easy to mistype, --just awful. I eventually came to a sort of truce with these awful Mac and PC keyboards, but I fell even more in love with the keyboards used with the terminals in the control room.

Now, a good many years later I know why. But, before I get into that, let me say that we recently threw out our old terminals in favor of using PC's as emulators. And out with the terminals went the keyboards that I loved. And in with the PC's came the keyboards that I hate.

Anyway, at some point last year, I ran across a review of the Matias Tactile Pro keyboard, which Matias said was essentially the Apple Extended Keyboard II resurrected, using the same Alps keyswitch technology. As you can imagine, I immediately lusted after one, but unfortunately, they were out of stock, and stayed that way for a long time. Plus, they were some $120 to $150, and my wife felt that I didn't need to spend that on just a "better" keyboard, when the one we have with our G4 works "just fine."

So I waited, biding my time, thinking of ways to "sell" the purchase to my wife. Then just a few weeks ago, I decided to check out the situation to see if the Tactile Pro's were available, and I ran across this review of the Tactile Pro. In it, the reviewer isn't as glowing about the Tactile Pro as others. OK, well, fine, I thought. But then, reading the user comments down below, I saw that there were quality issues with the Tactile Pro, and that one guy had had to return three keyboards in a row. This coupled with the fact that the new Tactile Pro's (now called Tactile Pro 2.0) won't be using Alps keyswitch technology, made me start to think about other options.

And, fortuitously, in that same review, people talked about using an Apple Extended Keyboard II with a Griffin iMate ADB to USB adaptor.

And, interestingly enough, someone there also mentioned the webiste www.clickykeyboards.com which is devoted to the IBM Model M keyboards and those who love them. Turns out, that, yes indeed, I had been typing on IBM Model M keyboards in the control room all those years. Keyboards that many still claim today as the best keyboards ever made. No wonder I loved them!

So, I let things be, deciding to think on the various options, when suddenly, at a church rummage sale my wife dragged me to, what should appear to my wondering eyes but an *Apple Extended Keyboard II* sitting on a table all by itself with some other defunct computer stuff. Holy Cow! Here it was. The legendary keyboard for . . . how much? No price tag. Took it up to the check out, and they thought for a second and said "how does $2 sound?" Sold. Would it work? Who knew. It seemed to be in decent condition. But for $2, it was worth a try.

Next, though, I had to get an ADB cable and an iMate adaptor from eBay, which I did for a total cost of about $42 including shipping. That was OK, though, as I figured if it was a bad keyboard, I would suck it up and pay good money for a used one from eBay or lowendmac or wherever. (If you do a google you can turn these up for sale).

One problem noted was that the iMate isn't supported for OS X 10.4 and higher, but since I run 10.3, I wasn't worried. (And it turns out that you can get this to work on Tiger. You just need to set the keyboard type to ANSI instead of ISO in System Preferences. Or something like this).

Well, once I got everything together, I hooked it all up and fired it all up, and OMG! I agree! The Apple Extended Keyboard II *IS* indeed the best keyboard ever made. Or at least the best keyboard I have ever laid hands on. I love it. It is amazing. I swear I can type twice as fast now for the same error rate.

Here are some links for further reading:

The Legendary Apple Extended Keyboard

The Apple Extended Keyboard II

More Features of the Extended II

Interview with the owner of clickykeyboards.com

If you are a Mac user and you hate the keyboards, check out a used extended, or wait and see what the word is on the Tactile Pro 2.0. If you are a PC user, check out www.clickykeyboards.com.

Your fingers will thank you. Because, sadly, almost all available keyboards aren't what they used to be, even the expensive after market ones--at least if you like a clicky keyboard!


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## knot

I use an IBM Model M and will agree, it's the best ever keyboard. I already used up 3 newer keyboards as the letters fade away to nothing. Here's a picture of the Sony Vaio keyboard I had and the damage I can only do to new style keyboards. The IBM is indestructible


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## tebore

Laptop KBs IBM/Lenovo (Thinkpads) are the best I've used. My current Asus Laptop is pretty nice too. 

I have to say the keyboards from 15-20 years ago were great to use. I love the old IBM and Compaq keyboards that clicked when you typed.


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## WNG

I thought I was the only 'nut' who complains about today's keyboards...junk.
The keys are too close together because of narrowed caps. And no tactile feel.

Best in my memory was an IBM AT keyboard when I was at IBM. Currently, I am banging on a 10+ yr old Micron Win95 keyboard. Missing the nice clicky feel, but is weighted nicely to get feedback. I notice I can type a lot faster too.
So it's not in my head.
+1 on IBM/Lenovo Thinkpad keyboards...best feel for a laptop.


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## cerbie

That reminds me, my Model M needs to be taken apart and cleaned.

Unfortunately I now have one for spare parts in my closet, having killed it with bottled water . I now only use glasses near my PC that are widest at their bases. This should also be a warning to anyone who picks it up and thinks of hurting anyone with it: you may fry the chip in there with the blood! So don't do it!  

One of these days I'm going to dye this thing black...


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## ABTOMAT

I agree with Jim, the IBM Model M and those Apple keyboards are some of the best ever. In addition to the Extended II, the orginal Extended and the IIgs shorty keyboard are excellent.

On my PC now I actually use a cheap Logitech keyboard, since I got tired of the Model M. The loud click and the hard stroke got on my nerves. The Logitech doesn't have the same quality, but I can type faster on a softer touch.


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## Daniel_sk

Check out http://www.daskeyboard.com/ , might be the same feeling as back in the old days .


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## allthumbs

The IBM type "M" keyboard is still manfactured and available. Also parts and repair services. IBM begat Lexmark, Lexmark kept the printers and sold the keyboard division to pckeyboard.com in Lexington Kentucky. Both the
"buckling Spring" and the Membrane (quiet touch) are available.
Disclaimer> No association other than satisfied customer<
I love my type "M"

Allthumbs


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## kingoftf

This one looks absolutely amazing but it is still Proof of Concept.
The developers have no idea when to offer for almost 3 years now.
Price should be around 1200 Dollar  

http://www.artlebedev.com/everything/optimus-concept/











The keys can be customized for every application.
Every key is a small OLED-Display......

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OLED


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## js

knot,

Yes. The Model M's are industructible. I cleaned them several times with amonia glass cleaner in order to remove the grime that had built up on the keys -- so badly, in fact, that you actually couldn't even _read_ some of the keys -- but once clean, the lettering was still there, quite legible, and the keyboard, as always, continued to work as well as ever. Those keyboards saw a LOT of use, I can tell you.

WNG,

nope. You are not alone my friend. There are others.

cerbie,

Good tip. No blood. Check. Got it.

ABTOMAT,

Yeah, I hear you (pun intended) about the clicking of the Model M. It's very noisy in the control room anyway, though, with all the fans and electronics, and what with the PFN of the LINAC right nearby, so it went unnoticed. But, that's actually one of the reasons I like the Apple Extended II better: a slightly softer touch and somewhat less noise, probably due to the use of the Alps keyswitch mechanism instead of the buckling spring.

Daniel_sk,

Thanks for the link.

Also, I should mention the Avanti Prime as another option to investigate for PC people.


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## 9volt

That keyboard looked kind of lame until I saw the 2nd picture.


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## js

Kingoftf,

The optimus keyboard looks really neat! What a concept!

However, there is no discussion of the action or mechanism used; the information you have provided doesn't speak at all towards typing feel and accuracy. Do you know anything about this aspect of the optimus?


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## Daniel_sk

The Optimus concept is quite old - I read about two years ago. They always delay the production of it. The OLED's will burn out after some time, it's too expensive (the price is going to be more than $1000 probably) and has other drawbacks (like the typing mechanism..).

More "realistic" info about the concept:
http://gizmodo.com/gadgets/peripherals/optimus-keyboard-price-release-date-announced-why-it-is-destined-for-failure-218081.php


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## js

Daniel_sk said:


> Check out http://www.daskeyboard.com/ , might be the same feeling as back in the old days .



Holy crap! That keyboard is ENTIRELY BLANK! Damn! Not that's effing *HARDCORE!* I don't know whether to love the idea or laugh at it or both.

Damn.


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## Daniel_sk

js said:


> Holy crap! That keyboard is ENTIRELY BLANK! Damn! Not that's effing *HARDCORE!* I don't know whether to love the idea or laugh at it or both.
> 
> Damn.


 
:laughing: Imagine how will your friends stare at your keyboard? I mean - I never look at the keys, so it wouldn't be an issue for me.


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## kingoftf

> The main idea behind the Optimus Maximus key design is that the part with the display is fixed, while the transparent cap is moving, pressing a Cherry switch underneath (patent pending .








http://community.livejournal.com/optimus_project/


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## Arkayne

Yummmmm, I miss that tactile feel. That distinct CLICK and TWANG of the keys. I loved the racket those keys made when I was going at 70wpm in my high school typing class.


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## TOOCOOL

IBM Model M :rock: I miss mine it died a few months ago it came with my 386 !


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## Unforgiven

This is still my favorite keyboard. Compact and full size keys.


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## PEU

Been using my IBM Model M keyboard every day since december 1985 when my mother bought me my first PC.

I also clean the key caps every next year or so, for quick repositioning I wrote with a fine sharpie where every cap belongs 


Pablo


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## emitter

howdy. funny you mention the cyclotron, a friend of mine at one point was gonna hook me up with a manager up there for a tour but it never happened. I'll have to wait for an open house. 
Sooo, yeah my favorite kb's are the big giant PS2 ones that came with dell servers in late 90's early 2k's. They were sprung (I think), heavy, and tall, there was extra room above the function keys and a ridge for a template I suppose. Not completely archaic like an XT kb. I'm typing on a dell quietkey, uses silicone springs w/ good response. 
I don't hate usb (heh, another friend from Ithaca is a usb compatibility certifier), but long live ps2. I mention these Dell's because there are probably zillions of them in the trash. 

Have you been to Babbage's Basement? babbagesbasement.com/location It's on 96B just up the hill toward the gun factory, but I've never been. They probably have loads of old keyboards, though they try to sell whole systems. In fact maybe your old terminals are there! 

my mac G3 'gossamer' has a bad kb too, but I never use it anyway. 

~ned


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## flashfan

Dang! I just threw out a couple of old keyboards last week. Don't know what kind they were, but did notice that they held up better than the newer stuff.


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## ckthorp

I run an IBM type-M on my Apple Powerbook via a PS/2-to-USB converter. Absolutely love it. Granted, inside, it is just a membrane keyboard and a non-functional steel plate, but its that buckling spring that works the magic. I've used vintage and new (from pckeyboards.com) type-Ms. Love them both, though the used ones tend to come with someone else's grime on the keys (ewwwwww). On the Mac, it's one function key short, but how often do you use the option key, anyway? I just remap the PC ALT key to the Mac open-apple and I'm all set.


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## CLHC

I'm curious about the natural style keyboards? I saw and tried one out sometime ago, and it was a two-piece board. I liked that one, but don't remember the name and can't seem to find it anywhere. Any ideas? Thanks!


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## LEDMaster2003_V2

I also agree, the clickys are nice. I also liked the "F" series, actually this one
http://cgi.ebay.com/VINTAGE-IBM-Clicky-Keyboard-Model-F-1390238-RARE_W0QQitemZ250041544767QQcmdZViewItem

Also like the Gateway AnyKey (didn't have clickies though)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gateway_AnyKey

It was especially useful in HL2/GMod where I was pwning people, using its angled-arrow keys (like _\| |/_ ) which were interspersed with the normal cursor keys to easily angle away from fire. The normal cursor keys were arranged in a + pattern rather than the inverted "T". There was a center key that functioned as the spacebar.





This is the general layout.

I still have it, but I committed a cardinal sin; had a liquid near it..:thumbsdow

Another favorite (though I've had no personal interaction) is the VersaKey
www.versakey.com 
I do believe this has a clicky, but don't quote me on that. Our med center has them in some places...

The switches up above are Special Application Keys, that you can program text strings into them. E.G. you can have one with SureFire, one with Cree, one with Luxeon, etc., then when you're typing on here, instead of typing the above, you'd just hit the appropriate key.


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## PhotonWrangler

I remember those Alps keyboards very well. They were noisy as heck but they had the best tactile feedback of any keyboard I've used. I agree with JS that it can improve your typing throughput because of that solid feel that you get from typing on it.


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## Anglepoise

So glad its not just me. 

My choice is a 1991 Honeywell-SUH

The SUH company is still making boards with their proprietory 
key action 
SITE 

I don't know what I will do when it gives up the ghost.


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## bfg9000

Our pal Dan has been a big fan of the Model M since at least 1999:

http://www.dansdata.com/ibmkeyboard.htm

http://www.dansdata.com/clickykeyboards.htm

http://www.dansdata.com/clicky2.htm

_Of course_ something that originally sold for hundreds of 1980s dollars was made to a higher standard than something made today to sell at a pricepoint of $5. Why would you expect any different?

Mine are well over 20 years old and still work great.


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## carrot

Count me in as a Model M fan! The lack of an extra function key bothers me as a Mac user but I love the tactile feel of a buckling spring keyboard.


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## bfg9000

The sound and feel of a Model M keyboard was intended to emulate the fantastic IBM Selectric typewriter keys. This tactile response can help to prevent carpal tunnel because _it indicates exactly when you can stop pressing_. When typing on a "mush" keyboard you'll tend to hit the keys a *lot* more forcefully than necessary just to make sure the keystrike registered, and that's bad for your hands.

Of course you could imagine the noise in a whole office full of such keyboards (or electric typewriters) going at once, so it's probably better suited for home use. There _are_ tactile keyboards that make less noise but still produce a positive "snap" feel for cubicle dwellers.


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## John N

I agree that the old IBM clickie keyboards were the cat's meow. Northgate (defunct, but remade?) made a decent clickie keyboard and I picked up a couple 2nd hand and have used them for years, although typing certain key combinations fast could cause problems (such as "HDS"!).

I recently found the Ione Scorpius-M10 mechanical keyboard and while it isn't as good as the old ones, it's one of the few, and rather affordable mechanical keyboards out now at $53. It's not too shabby, and it's what I'm typing on now.

Barrys-rigs-n-reviews.com Review of the Ione Scorpius-M10

Oh, and it doesn't have blank keys. How stupid is that?!?

-john


p.s. What was even cooler was those IBM Selectric ('golf ball') electric typewriters. Talk about tactile (and audible) feedback!


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## KC2IXE

allthumbs said:


> The IBM type "M" keyboard is still manfactured and available. Also parts and repair services. IBM begat Lexmark, Lexmark kept the printers and sold the keyboard division to pckeyboard.com in Lexington Kentucky. Both the
> "buckling Spring" and the Membrane (quiet touch) are available.
> Disclaimer> No association other than satisfied customer<
> I love my type "M"
> 
> Allthumbs



Yep - I was going to point folks to PCKeyboard.com - I'm typing this on a Model M - the first day at my job 10 years ago, I scrounged a model M - and recently, they were about to THROW OUT "that old keyboard" - yep - a model M - I grabbed that before it went in the can - I have about 4-5 running around - thing is - I've NEVER had to use any of the spares I have


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## js

bfg9000 said:


> The sound and feel of a Model M keyboard was intended to emulate the fantastic IBM Selectric typewriter keys. This tactile response can help to prevent carpal tunnel because _it indicates exactly when you can stop pressing_. When typing on a "mush" keyboard you'll tend to hit the keys a *lot* more forcefully than necessary just to make sure the keystrike registered, and that's bad for your hands.
> 
> Of course you could imagine the noise in a whole office full of such keyboards (or electric typewriters) going at once, so it's probably better suited for home use. There _are_ tactile keyboards that make less noise but still produce a positive "snap" feel for cubicle dwellers.



Exactly! I have a friend who is a VERY fast laptop typist, and the keyboard is, as to be expected, one of those with no feel and no tactile action. And I was watching him carefully one day to figure out how he did it, and yes, precisely, he was punching down on each single key with WAY more force than was needed. It was a quick, snappy kind of tap-down for each key. And he was fast with it, no doubt. But, gosh, I'd hate to have to type that way, hour after hour. My tendons would not be pleased about that kind of typing technique.


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## Lynx_Arc

I am still using a 1991 Keytronics made in USA keyboard. With the exception of having to shim one key that wore prematurely and clean it from spilling grape soda in it it still feels the same and works good. I don't care for noisy clicking keyboards and find the action of them harder to control as I tend to type too hard or too soft at times causing some keyboards to miss or double type characters. I don't perfer sloppy feeling or overspringy keyboards.


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## js

Coming up on the three month mark now since I got my Apple Extended II Keyboard, and I just have to say that I love it even more now that I have spent more time with it. The iMate ADB to USB adaptor works pretty much perfectly, although occasionally the caps lock LED light turns on and stays on no matter what--just the LIGHT, though. The caps lock key will still work, turning on and off capitals, but even when it is off, the LED will be on. However, simply restarting the computer remedies this problem, and it's only happened to me twice in all this time so far. Very minor, but there it is.

So, anyway, great keyboard, good adaptor product. I'm very pleased. I get a lot more enjoyment out of typing now than I ever did with the stock keyboard.


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## The_LED_Museum

In my opinion, the best keyboard I've ever typed on was the one built into a Commodore 128 computer.
Everything I've typed on since has felt a bit "junky", if you know what I mean. :sick2:


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## knot

lol - I hate those "mush" keyboards. I learned to type on a typewriter in high school so only the IBM feels comfortable to me. 

I just bought another model M for $5.00 at a thrift store.


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## greenLED

My brother had one of those original IBM keyboards and it was *nice*!

Despite the feeling, I decided to go "ergo" a while back and will never type in a regular keyboard if I can help it. While some of the ergo keyboards I've tried don't have the same tactile feel as some of the nicer regular keyboards, they make up for it in terms of ergonomics.

I'm currently using a Microsoft Ergonomic 4000 and like it a lot. The keys don't feel as nice as the original Microsoft Natural ergo I had, but the 4000 is much comfortable to type on. Part of it is due to the cushioned palm/wrist pads, and part of it is the inverted angle of the keyboard (achieved with a removable plastic base).


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## LukeA

I like half-throw keyboards, so If I stop using a laptop, I'll have to find a half throw keyboard or cut the keyboard out of an old Powerbook.


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## bfg9000

IBM M15 is clicky _and_ ergonomic. You could even fold it in half and use it vertically. 




Or if you'd prefer to learn how to type all over again, there's always the keyboard Jodie Foster used in Contact. I'd trade my nice Kinesis programmable keyboard or Logitech DiNovo (that one has short-throw keys and a bluetooth mouse) for either.


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## knot

bfg9000 said:


> Or if you'd prefer to learn how to type all over again, there's always the keyboard Jodie Foster used in Contact. I'd trade my nice Kinesis programmable keyboard or Logitech DiNovo (that one has short-throw keys and a bluetooth mouse) for either.



I'll trade my keyboard for Jodie foster.


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## bfg9000

knot said:


> I'll trade my keyboard for Jodie foster.


Your name's not Hinckley, is it?


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## js

bfg9000 said:


> IBM M15 is clicky _and_ ergonomic. You could even fold it in half and use it vertically.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Or if you'd prefer to learn how to type all over again, there's always the keyboard Jodie Foster used in Contact. I'd trade my nice Kinesis programmable keyboard or Logitech DiNovo (that one has short-throw keys and a bluetooth mouse) for either.



Damn! Those are some INTENSE keyboards there btg9000! Pretty hard core, requiring no small investment of time to adjust and adapt to using them. Very interesting! Thanks for the links.


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## bfg9000

I think the most far-out keyboard they _ever_ tested was the OrbiTouch, with its two B-cup... domes. As weird as the DataHand is, at least it has a separate key for each letter. The OrbiTouch may be just the right keyboard for that special Hell reserved for the engineers who designed the iDrive or terrible flashlight UIs.


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## LuxLuthor

LOL! I have a dozen of those old IBM M PS2 keyboards in the basement....all still work like new.

I like my Kinesis ergo keyboard with programmable keys and extra footswitch. Actually designed for the shape of your fingers, and put the most used keys with strongest digits....or you can change them to whatever you want.


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## Size15's

I've pretty heavy fingered when it comes to typing but I find that I can type faster and more accurately if I use more force. I do tend to kill keyboards every year or so and people notice the difference when they use mine. I've never used special or specific keyboard though. I find it hard to type on anything but a full-sized standard layout keyboard because I need the space and don't tend to look at the keyboard at all whilst I'm typing so all the keys need to be where I'm used to them being!
Al


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## LuxLuthor

LOL, someone asked me about buying one of those IBM M's....so I went down and looked at them all. It really is amazing when I think how much use they got....every one of them shows no color fading, all the keys work as good now as they did. All of them have the M series year of 1984, and printed number with years in 1988-89. That really is an amazing accomplishment....but IBM always thought all the money was in the hardware, not the software, so they built Tank Keyboards....LMAO....then along came Gates.


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## UncleFester

And I thought I was just weird. I just LOVE the tactile feedback of my 1984 Model M. People scoff at my ancient "cast iron" keyboard. As JS pointed out, it makes it much eaiser to type than most keyboards. When I get on a roll and don't have to correct any errors, it makes me sound like I actually can type. :hahaha:


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## GregY

This may come across as sacrilege here, but I *hate* the old IBM clicky keyboards. Way back in the day I had access to RS6K workstations with really load clicky keyboards, and just looking at those things made my wrists hurt.

No, they may not have been the strongest or most durable, but the keyboards with the best feel EVER were DEC workstation and terminal keyboards from the early 90's. In fact I still have a pair of VT420's that I haven't used in 6 years just because I can't bear to part with the keyboards. 

As a side note, DEC also made the finest mice that have ever existed.


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## Fizz753

LEDMaster2003_V2 said:


> I also agree, the clickys are nice. I
> Also like the Gateway AnyKey (didn't have clickies though)
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gateway_AnyKey
> 
> It was especially useful in HL2/GMod where I was pwning people, using its angled-arrow keys (like _\| |/_ ) which were interspersed with the normal cursor keys to easily angle away from fire. The normal cursor keys were arranged in a + pattern rather than the inverted "T". There was a center key that functioned as the spacebar.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is the general layout.
> 
> I still have it, but I committed a cardinal sin; had a liquid near it..:thumbsdow



Hey it seems like I have seen that keyboard somewhere before... Ohh ya I am using it to type this post.  Rescued it from work one night when I worked as a Custodian for a local business. They were throwing it away so I took it home. Only needed a *good* cleaning. The business is a wholesale plant nursery, the office the keyboard was in was on the nursery grounds. It was dirty to say the least.


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## Daniel_sk

This keyboard was specially designed for Windows :


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## Fallingwater

I'd kill for one of these.
I love split keyboards, they are much easier on the hands than ordinary square, and even ergonomic "bent" ones.
I also love buckling spring boards.
Put both things together and that'd be my dream typing keyboard (I'd still use a rubber-pad one for gaming).


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## Martin

Abt three years ago I was looking for a standard US keyboard with no stupid Windows keys. This was hard to find, US keyboards are no longer common and the old 101 key ones are double rare.
I went looking at online auctions and eventually won a lot of 20, new and still in original packing, real cheap but for personal pickup at a Stuttgart warehouse. I drove there and got them.
The brand is TRI COM and on the bottom it says "Ireland". Soon I found they are not bad at all, probably the best keyboards I ever had. My wife likes them, too. They don't click but keying on them is very good, both the feel and error rate. Today I'm still on the first one of this lot.
Now as I read this thread, I realize they look like the IBM model M. So this thread is a real eye opener to me !


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## greenLED

I replaced my original MS Natural Elite with a MS Natural 4000. I don't care for the extra bells and whistles on the 4000 model, but it's more comfortable than my previous ergo keyboard. 

One reason I replaced it is because my new lappy doesn't have legacy ports for older keyboards or mice, and the PS/2 to USB adapter costs as much as what I paid for my new keyboard. How are you guys dealing with the needed adaptors on those older keyboards?


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## ckthorp

greenLED said:


> One reason I replaced it is because my new lappy doesn't have legacy ports for older keyboards or mice, and the PS/2 to USB adapter costs as much as what I paid for my new keyboard. How are you guys dealing with the needed adaptors on those older keyboards?


I just bite the bullet and buy the adapter. You can get them for about $11 shipped. http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16812101117 What's the fuss? A good typing feel is easily worth 10x that to me.


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## ckthorp

Martin said:


> The brand is TRI COM and on the bottom it says "Ireland". Soon I found they are not bad at all, probably the best keyboards I ever had. My wife likes them, too. They don't click but keying on them is very good, both the feel and error rate. Today I'm still on the first one of this lot.
> Now as I read this thread, I realize they look like the IBM model M. So this thread is a real eye opener to me !



They did sell an identical soft-touch model. (That Unicomp still sells)


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## greenLED

ckthorp said:


> I just bite the bullet and buy the adapter. You can get them for about $11 shipped. http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16812101117 What's the fuss? A good typing feel is easily worth 10x that to me.


I didn't check newegg, and that's where I usually buy my computer stuff. I forget where I checked, but it was cheaper for me to buy a NIB Natural 4000 off eFlay than getting the adapter.

The fuss? RSI, and an ergo keyboard is just one way of reducing stress on my wrists. I'm willing to type on a keyboard without that perfect touch if that means I don't get "needles" or numbness on my fingertips after a day at work (if not less). 

If they could combine the perfect touch with an ergo design, I'd be triply happy.

What's up with all the extra buttons on keyboards these days? Do people really need 20 extra buttons to activate their web browser, calculator, e-mail app, access their whatever...?


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## bfg9000

Most of the old IBM keyboards violate the 100mA (max) PS/2 specification so not every USB adapter will work. This one will work for sure.

Strange because IBM wrote the original PS/2 specs. Anything should work with a Microsoft keyboard though.


----------



## AndyTiedye

I recall one version of IBM keyboard that seemed to have super-strong springs so you had to press really hard to get the key to go down, then
it would let go all at once and let your finger crash into the stop.
I hated those keyboards. I liked the old DEC keyboards best.

Don't drop one of those old IBM keyboards either. I saw someone drop one onto the lab floor and it was keys and springs — all of them — flying all over the lab.


----------



## ckthorp

bfg9000 said:


> Strange because IBM wrote the original PS/2 specs.



If I had to guess, I'd say it was probably because those old IBM clunkers were built around an old XT/AT design.


----------



## WhatMACHI

The old IMB keyboard i had from 8 or so years ago is still one of the best keyboards ive ever had. It still works 100% and i dont ever see the need to replace it unless it breaks.


----------



## LuxLuthor

Fallingwater said:


> I'd kill for one of these.
> I love split keyboards, they are much easier on the hands than ordinary square, and even ergonomic "bent" ones.
> I also love buckling spring boards.
> Put both things together and that'd be my dream typing keyboard (I'd still use a rubber-pad one for gaming).



I have 6 of those split models too. Maybe I better take a more complete inventory of all the crap I do have that I was gonna have sent to the dump.


----------



## yummytummy

I'm still using the M keyboard that was attached to the used IBM 300PL that was my 1st computer. It's odd to think about it now because it's such a common fixture in my space like a chair but this device is the oldest computer artifact that I personally possess. Everything else computer-wise from 10 years ago - monitors, trackballs, hard drives, operating systems, mp3's, cd's - has fallen into the obselete bin. I'll probably throw myself under an elephant if my M ever breaks down.


----------



## LuxLuthor

Or get a spare now while you still can find them.


----------



## js

Just wanted to report that the Apple Extended Keyboard II, with the Griffin iMate ADB to USD adaptor does indeed work in Tiger, despite a report I read that it didn't (or had problems). I just recently upgraded to OS X 10.4.11 (Tiger) and the keyboard is working just fine.

Also wanted to report that I test drove the new Apple keyboard kit, and it's really nice. Very different action than the Extended Keyboard II which I use, but still well done and effective, unlike many of their other offerings in recent years!

Also, there is a company making new keyboards that utilize the buckling spring mechanism. Google "Buckling spring keyboards" and you'll find them.


----------



## HarryN

We tend to use laptops a lot, even at home, and the two main failure modes are always the screen and keyboard.

One of the things I really like about my HP 6515B laptop is that the keyboard is easily replaced. It is actually not bad for a laptop, but no doubt will fail at some point due to the heavy use. No problem - it is designed for end user replacement.

I think this is one of the areas that is often overlooked when people buy "consumer" laptops vs paying just a bit more for a "business grade" laptop - ability to keep it going.


----------



## greenLED

HarryN said:


> I think this is one of the areas that is often overlooked when people buy "consumer" laptops vs paying just a bit more for a "business grade" laptop - ability to keep it going.


Yup. That's why we went with Latitude last time I bought a lappy. A lot more rugged than my old Inspiron.


----------



## AMD64Blondie

I'm also a rabid IBM Model M fan. I have 2 1991 Model M's and a 1995 Model M. My main Windows PC is using one of the '91 Model M's,and my backup OpenSuse 11 Linux PC is using the other one. It's quite funny to me that while most of the hardware inside my PC is so modern,it's all controlled by a 17-year-old keyboard.
Long Live The IBM Model M!!!


----------



## NA8

I've got an old Northgate Computer Systems OmniKey/PLUS. It's so old the plug needs an adapter. 

http://www.northgate-keyboard-repair.com/ultraplus.jpg

Manuals available here (includes schematics, dip switch settings, and key codes etc): 

http://www.lueckdatasystems.com/Northgate_OmniKey_Keyboards

This guy does repairs/cleaning, and has some refurbs for sale:

http://www.northgate-keyboard-repair.com/

The picture isn't inspiring, but they are very well made keyboards with Alps switches.


----------



## manoloco

I liked and still kinda like Model M keyboards, still have some in great conditions, and a black one with a mouse stick in the middle - trackpoint - (last model Ms iirc), however my true choice for best keyboards, are the ones that have Cherry MX switches on them, specially the maroon switches.

Cherry is a german company that has been making mechanical switches for a long time now, as long as model M keyboards, i have an NCR keyboard that has cherry MX black switches, and i love it, a special touch are the red leds it has for numlock caps lock and scr lock (usually they are green).

the feedback on the cherry marron switches is great the travel is good, long enough to make the weight of your fingers do the work, and short enough that you pull your fingers as soon as you push them and making them ready for the next stroke, it has a low tactile click and a low audible click, as a matter of fact you can hear more the keys when you bottom out than when you reach the audible click section of the switch.

Needs low force to push, but its very positive, and for those who use all their fingers to type (which i assume is most of the people in this thread) its great.

will look for info to post here about them, Cherry still makes them i think but its kind of a niche market, and they are more expensive than other keyboards of course, specially if you rate your keys for 50 million worry free keystrokes 

however since they are old and i live in a 3rd world country, this is the place to find old used but in good condition hardware, i have bought many model M keyboards for less than $3 USD, some Cherry keyboards (Made for old Compaq rack servers) for less than $10 dollars, all in perfect conditions, my friends that have seen me buy them say why in hell would i use those old looking things, i answer: because i type with my fingers not with my eyes (altough cherry keyboards imo are really good lookers).

*edit

forgot to add, each key module has gold contacts in a system called goldcrosspoint to insure proper contact every time (not gold plated, the contacts on that part are all gold).

good models from Cherry have the key characters not printed, or laser engraved but injected in the mold, you can wear all the plastic on it, and it will still show the character , like this:

http://park16.wakwak.com/~ex4/kb/tech_mold.htm

here come the links:

http://www.cherrycorp.com/english/switches/key/mx.htm
http://mykeyboard.co.uk/keyswitches/
http://www.maltron.com/maltron-cherry-mx.html
http://park16.wakwak.com/~ex4/kb/tech_cherry_mx.htm

*update

forgot to mention: i have executed maintenance of a number of model M keyboards (empiric way) and they are not fully mechanical, they are a combination of mechanical and membrane, its called buckle spring.


----------



## js

Great posts everyone! Thanks! Good info here. I'm looking forward to checking out some of these links.


----------



## manoloco

Was a bit tired yesterday and forgot i had pictures of my keyboards in my HDD:

One of my favorites (very small footprint but keys are full size):


*Compaq MX 11800 (cherry mx switches):*




























*NCR (1985), i wish more keyboards were like this with the leds on the keyswitches, and in red:*


























this one shows the 2 color plastic injection that has the character in the whole thickness of the plastic key.


----------



## eluminator

ckthorp said:


> I just bite the bullet and buy the adapter. You can get them for about $11 shipped. http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16812101117 What's the fuss? A good typing feel is easily worth 10x that to me.




Have you bought one in the last couple of months? The one I bought 6 months ago from newegg works fine, so I bought another. The second one doesn't work with my old pre-USB keyboard. It looks almost identical to the first but the PS2 connectors for keyboard and mouse are not labelled with K and M, but rather they have icons.

But I found one that does work. It looks just like the first one I bought from newegg. Notice the package is labelled "active".
http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=1113581&CatId=469

I'm sure the ones clickykeyboards.com sells work also, but they are more expensive and the shipping is rather outrageous.

By the way, I'm also a touch typist. I took a course in typing in high school. That was one of the most useful courses I ever took. My taste in keyboards is different though. I like my 10 year old HP keyboard because it has a rotary volume control.

I spilled coffee on it one too many times. I almost had a panic attack when it stopped working. I drink black coffee so there was no cream or sugar to gum up the works, but it corroded away some of the conductive trace on the plastic membrane. I repaired it with a conductive pen used for repairing printed circuit boards. While it was apart I washed and cleaned it thoroughly. I guess I should do that every ten years.

I no longer trust myself with regular coffee mugs. I now use a travel mug and my problems are over.


----------



## Black Rose

I remember using the model M keyboard on our IBM 8088 PCs at college in 1986. I liked the feel of the keys. 

Following graduation, I ended up working in a shop that used IBM ES 9000 series mainframes with 3270 terminals. The keyboard wasn't the model M keyboard (different layout for mainframe vs PC) but it had the same feel. Solid keyboards.

I really liked the 3270 terminals...for years afterwards I altered the colour coding of my editors to match the 3270 screens I worked on.

Now come to think of it, I may have one of those keyboards in storage. I'll have to check that out.


----------



## Eye of Unk

I just bought a Saitek Cyborg, I will write up a review when it comes in. My current Saitek Eclipse has worked fine for the last couple of years.


----------



## wquiles

I also miss those early keyboards, but not their loudless. Now-a-days, I use the MS Natural Keyboard for comfort reasons - they definitely work for me, even if they are not as "smooth" and effective as the older keyboards 

Will


----------



## ckthorp

eluminator said:


> Have you bought one in the last couple of months? The one I bought 6 months ago from newegg works fine, so I bought another. The second one doesn't work with my old pre-USB keyboard. It looks almost identical to the first but the PS2 connectors for keyboard and mouse are not labelled with K and M, but rather they have icons.



No, I haven't bought one in the last couple months. It's been about a year or so since I've bought one.


----------



## Eye of Unk

Eye of Unk said:


> I just bought a Saitek Cyborg, I will write up a review when it comes in. My current Saitek Eclipse has worked fine for the last couple of years.




Well I have been using it for a couple of days now, I really like it, it has different colors like red, green and orange though I wish it had blue, the keypads used for gaming are extra tough but I have yet to do gaming with it. Typing is a breeze in the dark, the pads have a soft click feel not the mushy type like remotes feel like, its heavy duty built, I like it.


----------



## LEDAdd1ct

Typing on an IBM Model M right now, and very pleased with it. I run only the Model M on my main desktops, though my little sister hates them. She likes the light, new, soft-touch types, which makes my fingers hurt.


----------



## turbodog

I've got some rare nmb boards with the 'magic black' keyswitches. Very sweet.


----------



## manoloco

Like this one?:


















i like it, but theres something in the feedback and bottoming that makes me prefer the cherry mx switches, perhaps we type differently.


----------



## adamlau

I use Unicomp boards exclusively. Good stuff.


----------



## js

manoloco said:


> Like this one?:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> . . . .



Yes. Just like that one, although yours seems to be missing the "IBM" label in the upper left. :thinking:

So, I just got a Model M IBM keyboard for my office and I love it! I haven't ever tried a keyboard with the Cherry MX switch mechanisms, and I might prefer it--who knows!--but I certainly do appreciate the model M. It's loud, but it's strangely addicting to type on.

And, it turns out that those keyboards in the control room that I talked about in the first post, the ones that got thrown away when we had to replace the DEC terminals--well, those were NOT IBM Model M keyboards. They were still nice, and clicky, and I have no idea what they used as the mechanism, but they were definitely not what I have now. I got a 1992 vintage classic IBM Model M 1391401 from www.clickykeyboards.com and I'm thrilled with it. The only thing I wish is that I could replace that grungy cord that came with it. One end has a PS2 connector, but the other end is some special connector. Does anyone know if I could buy a new replacement for that cord?

On another note, since my wife is the one who mostly uses our desktop here at home, and since she mostly uses the mouse and not the keyboard, I got her one of the newer Apple wired Keyboards and it is nice. Really nice. It is a laptop style keyboard in that it has a short throw and flat, shallow keys, but it definitely has a tactile feedback and is NOT mushy. I can freaking FLY on that keyboard! It took a little bit of getting used to, after living with the Apple Extended Keyboard II for years, but once I did settle into it, I really liked it. Plus it's very small (but not as light as you would think--nice and solid aluminum chasis for stable typing adds weight), and it has all the special keys that are useful on an Apple computer (volume and screen brightness up / down keys, optical drive eject key, etc.) So, I recommend it, FWIW. The reviews on Amazon are similarly positive.

Anyway, so there it is. Just wanted to update this thread with a new post and correct my mistake in the first post.


----------



## LLCoolBeans

The Northgate Omnikey series are the best classic keyboards in existence, bar none. These are much higher quality than any other keyboard I have ever used. Including the IBM battleship boards and anything else mentioned.

The best modern board, in my opinion, is this. Please buy one as I don't want to see this company abandon the keyboard business, they have already dropped several models.

Happy Hacking Lite2
http://pfuca-store.stores.yahoo.net/haphackeyser.html

This keybord was designed by programmers for programmers and it is really a thing of beauty. However, you do not need to be a programmer to take advantage of the features of this board.

The HHK boards are designed in such a way that you can access all the functions of a 104 key keyboard without removing your fingers from the home row.

And yes, they work on Mac too.


----------



## js

LLCoolBeans,

Do you know anything about CVT's Avant Prime, which is a modern remake of the Northgate Omnikey? And if so, how do they compare to the HHK? And to the original Omnikey?


----------



## js

LLCoolBeans said:


> The Northgate Omnikey series are the best classic keyboards in existence, bar none. These are much higher quality than any other keyboard I have ever used. Including the IBM battleship boards and anything else mentioned.
> 
> . . .



And, I just can't help but comment on this. Not to be annoying, but I really must ask: have you had experience with ALL of the other keyboards mentioned in this thread? And if not, on what basis do you say that the Northgate Omnikey's are "much" higher quality than the IBM's and "anything else mentioned"? This is not a rhetorical question. I really want to know.


----------



## TONY M

I had several IBMs and loved the feel and sound of the keys, they looked just like the one in manloco's photographs.


----------



## NA8

CVT's Avant Prime looks interesting. My old Northgate Plus just died recently. 

Been using a $9 Compaq surplus keyboard I had lying around. I'll say the Northgates were VERY high quality. If they weren't the very best ever, they were close construction wise. Then again, mine died  

Keyboard layout is a personal thing, but I liked the decadent excess in these models. They had a dip switch on the back so you could change some of the more common layout preferrences such as the CTRL/CAPS LOCK positions. 

http://www.northgate-keyboard-repair.com/ultra.jpg

Found my old receipt, $109 in 1990 for the Plus model. Not bad, about 18 years of gaming and porn


----------



## LLCoolBeans

js said:


> And if not, on what basis do you say that the Northgate Omnikey's are "much" higher quality than the IBM's and "anything else mentioned"? This is not a rhetorical question. I really want to know.



No, I don't have experience with all the boards mentioned on this thread. So, I suppose I could be wrong, but I don't think so.

I've had both the Northgate's and IBMs apart. Build quality on the northgate is impressive to say the least. If those were made today they would probably have to retail for $1500 or something.




NA8 said:


> CVT's Avant Prime looks interesting. My old Northgate Plus just died recently.
> 
> Been using a $9 Compaq surplus keyboard I had lying around. I'll say the Northgates were VERY high quality. If they weren't the very best ever, they were close construction wise. Keyboard layout is a personal thing, but I liked the decadent excess in these models. They had a dip switch on the back so you could change some of the more common layout preferrences such as the CTRL/CAPS LOCK positions.
> 
> http://www.northgate-keyboard-repair.com/ultra.jpg



I love the Omni Key Plus and the Happy Hacking because the [Ctrl] Key is where it is supposed to be. Why on earth did IBM put caps lock there? And why on earth did the industry have to adopt that insane layout and make it a standard?

The [Ctrl] key should be somewhere super easy to reach as it is used very often. How often do you use the freaking caps lock key? A few times a year, maybe? Yet it takes up all that valuble easily reachable space directly to the left of your left pinky finger.

I always use a board with [Ctrl] in it's rightful place. If I don't have that option, say like with a laptop, I use software to swap the positions of [caps]and [Ctrl].


----------



## NA8

LLCoolBeans said:


> I love the Omni Key Plus and the Happy Hacking because the [Ctrl] Key is where it is supposed to be. Why on earth did IBM put caps lock there?



LOL. They had a funny thing called a typewriter back before Microsoft WORD. 

Guess where the Caps Lock key was ?


----------



## LLCoolBeans

NA8 said:


> LOL. They had a funny thing called a typewriter back before Microsoft WORD.
> 
> Guess where the Caps Lock key was ?



Sun had the [Ctrl] in it's proper place before IBM swooped in and messed everything up.

Now that you mention it, the typewriter may have been IBM's motivation as they may have wanted consistency in layout between their typewriters and their PC keyboards.


----------



## NA8

Actually, now that I think about it, the original IBM PC keyboard had the CTRL key where you like it and hid the CapsLock key over on the other side of the keyboard under the shift key. I recall they did that because they had a very profitable dedicated word processor business they wanted to protect. Later on, the industry seemed to standardize on the typewriter friendly layout.


----------



## ckthorp

LLCoolBeans said:


> Now that you mention it, the typewriter may have been IBM's motivation as they may have wanted consistency in layout between their typewriters and their PC keyboards.



You do know that the Model M was intentionally designed to mimic the feel of the Selectric keyboard, right? The Selectric III with correction had a really nice keyboard.


----------



## LLCoolBeans

ckthorp said:


> You do know that the Model M was intentionally designed to mimic the feel of the Selectric keyboard, right? The Selectric III with correction had a really nice keyboard.



And now all of humanity has to suffer with inferior keyboard layouts. 

Who even uses a typewriter anymore?


----------



## ckthorp

LLCoolBeans said:


> And now all of humanity has to suffer with inferior keyboard layouts.
> 
> Who even uses a typewriter anymore?



Up until last year or so, I did. I'm an engineer with really crummy handwriting. For those multi-part forms that Universities love to use (which aren't available in electronically fillable versions), the typewriter was great for getting things across legibly. There is also something extremely satisfying about banging out a form on a typewriter.


----------



## LLCoolBeans

ckthorp said:


> Up until last year or so, I did. I'm an engineer with really crummy handwriting. For those multi-part forms that Universities love to use (which aren't available in electronically fillable versions), the typewriter was great for getting things across legibly. There is also something extremely satisfying about banging out a form on a typewriter.



Sure, but is that justification for inconveniencing millions of people? Who cares if computer keyboards are a little different from typewriters? My point is that there is no longer any justification for that lousy layout.


----------



## ckthorp

LLCoolBeans said:


> Sure, but is that justification for inconveniencing millions of people? Who cares if computer keyboards are a little different from typewriters? My point is that there is no longer any justification for that lousy layout.



What are you saying is wrong with my Dvorak keyboard? I've been full-time on Dvorak for almost a decade now. Even my laptops, which, if you're careful, you can rearrange. Anyway, IBM wasn't the first person to mimic a typewriter on an electronic keyboard entry device, they just made one of the really popular ones.


----------



## LLCoolBeans

ckthorp said:


> What are you saying is wrong with my Dvorak keyboard? I've been full-time on Dvorak for almost a decade now. Even my laptops, which, if you're careful, you can rearrange.



Nothing. I have no issue with Dvorak, never used one, but I'm sure it's a good layout. I just don't like caps lock in the offensive left of the pinky position.




ckthorp said:


> Anyway, IBM wasn't the first person to mimic a typewriter on an electronic keyboard entry device, they just made one of the really popular ones.



No, they were not the first, but I think they were the cause of the industry standard.


----------



## js

LLCoolBeans,

This is the first time I've ever heard anyone make such a fuss about the position of the control key! Is it really so bad as all of that? I mean, if it comes to that, then the entire world should adopt the DVORAK keyboard, right, as it is more efficiently laid out.

Like it or not, tradition, once established, must be considered. I would be unhappy if I had to relearn the position of the control / caps lock keys, just as I would be really unhappy to have to learn dvorak layout.

For those who type for a living, it would be worth it to do something like that and it would be significant where the control key is. But for most people? Not an issue. Not an inconvenience. Not hardly. Most people don't even use keyboard shortcuts, they use a mouse.

I'm not saying you're wrong, only that you're being a drama queen! :nana:

Just buy an HHK keyboard. Someone who goes by the name "LLCoolBeans" recommended it 'cause it has the control key in the right place. No inconvenience for you, and the rest of us are just fine with it where it is.


----------



## LLCoolBeans

js said:


> I'm not saying you're wrong, only that you're being a drama queen! :nana:



Yes, yes I am. 




js said:


> This is the first time I've ever heard anyone make such a fuss about the position of the control key! Is it really so bad as all of that?



Yes. 

First let me state that my statements are somewhat exaggerated for comic effect. My humor comes through much better in person.

I too was once like you, until I tried a keyboard with the control key in it's rightful place. It was awkward for about 5 minutes and then I it clicked. The only reason I feel so strongly, is that I found it made a huge difference in my ability to use the keyboard efficiently. I've never gone back. I feel that others should give it a try, so they can benefit too.




js said:


> I mean, if it comes to that, then the entire world should adopt the DVORAK keyboard, right, as it is more efficiently laid out.



Maybe they should. I've always wanted to try it, just never went so far as to actually do it.




js said:


> Just buy an HHK keyboard. Someone who goes by the name "LLCoolBeans" recommended it 'cause it has the control key in the right place.



Well, don't buy it because I said anything. Buy it because it's a great board. 

Don't let the Ctrl key thing stop you, if you are married to your Ctrl/Caps arrangement, no problem. You can swap the position of Ctrl and Caps via dip switches on the back of the board.

Also, the HKK can look like one of those travel keyboards in the photos. I assure you it is not. The board is weighted so that it stays put on your desktop or keyboard tray. It is only small in stature because the human hand is only so big. Why not use an input device where all functions are right at your fingertips, rather than having to move your arms about or look down at the keybord?

They used to have a DVORAK model, that is one of the ones that has gone the way of the dodo. They also used to have a model with no labeling on the keys at all.

There are a couple of other great products that complement the HHK very well.

The Rollermouse
http://www.contourdesign.com/rollermouse/

And the Genovation programmable keypad
http://www.genovation.com/progkeypads.htm

Oh, and the HHK Lite 2 page
http://www.pfusystems.com/hhkeyboard/hhkeyboard.html


----------



## js

LLCoolBeans,

Great response! I believe you that it just might "click" for me, but since I like to YELL at people a lot in my posts and emails, THE CAPS LOCK KEY IS A GODSEND! I use it way more than the STUPID control key. *grin* For instance I just used it like three freaking times in this one post! How cool is that?

But seriously, like I said, I think you're probably right about this issue. Although, when I worked for the military, there was a crazy amount of ALL CAPS acronyms and just general style/preference, so I probably used it almost as much as the control key back then.

Anyway, thanks for the posts and the HHK recommendation.


----------



## LLCoolBeans

js said:


> LLCoolBeans,
> 
> Great response! I believe you that it just might "click" for me, but since I like to YELL at people a lot in my posts and emails, THE CAPS LOCK KEY IS A GODSEND! I use it way more than the STUPID control key. *grin* For instance I just used it like three freaking times in this one post! How cool is that?
> 
> But seriously, like I said, I think you're probably right about this issue. Although, when I worked for the military, there was a crazy amount of ALL CAPS acronyms and just general style/preference, so I probably used it almost as much as the control key back then.



Well, if you actually use it more than you use [Ctrl], then I can understand why you like it where it is. If you think you might use [Ctrl] more often, I would seriously recommend you try switching the position of [L Ctrl] with [Caps]. You don't need to buy a keyboard to try it out either. If you use Windows, there is a program called TradeKeys that will allow you to modify your key mappings. If you use Linux, there is a similar thing, but I don't remember the name. If you use Mac, I hope it would be possible, but I have no idea, I don't even know if Mac has a [Ctrl] key.

You might also try swapping with [R Ctrl] instead, this would allow [Ctrl] to be in the new place and in the place you are used to it being.




js said:


> Anyway, thanks for the posts and the HHK recommendation.



If you decide to give it a try, let me know and I'll help you to realize the power.

I did some looking on eBay and as it turns out, the real HHKs are still availible, however they are only availible on the Japanese market. They used to retail for $150 or something from PFU. Now if you want one you have to get one from ebay and pay $200 to $300+. Ouch. 

That is the "Professional 2" model. The "Lite2" model is still imported into the US and can be had from PFU, the above link should take you to the online ordering page.

The Lite2, is probably the better board to try out the concept, as it will only set you back $70 or so.

They also used to make/import the Lite2s with a PS/2 interface, now only USB is availible.

Also, looking on eBay, I noticed what Nortgate keyboards are selling for. Egads! Do an ebay search for Northgate keyboard. This may give you an approximation of the quality of these boards. If people are stepping over each other to purchase a 20+ year old keyboard for upwards of $300, what does that say about the quality of the keyboard?

I was lucky, I found mine some years ago under a stack of old keyboards at the local thrift shop. I think I paid $2-$5 for mine.


----------



## js

LLCoolBeans,

I was kidding about using the caps lock key more. I, like most serious computer users, use the CTRL key way more--the keyboard is always faster than the mouse. And at home I use a Mac, and OS X, in system preferences, makes it very easy to redefine keyboard keys. As for the windows and Linux stuff, here at work I barely have the authority to change the effing time on my computer, let alone install applications and make system changes. The computer group locks those things down tight. Never mind that I am trusted with operating a $125,000 API laser tracker, and am entrusted with operating and being responsible for the entire accelerator. That, apparently, must pale in comparison to being given administrator priviledges on my own damn machine. It annoys me so much that I bought a Macbook Pro on my own dime so I could have an unhampered computer experience here at work when I want. So, the point is that I would almost certainly not be able to get software like you are talking about installed on my machine. I couldn't even get a different web browser installed unless I could "justify" it. Just because I like a different one doesn't cut it.

That's OK, though, when I'm on the control system cluster, I have God-like power! *muh hah ha ha* (evil laugh).

Anyway, while I appreciate the offer(s) and the recommendation on the HHK and Northgate, I almost certainly will just "settle" for my IBM Model M here at work. I like it, and while I can usually spend money to get what I want, my wife looks very askance at multiples. i.e. I can buy a knife--a very expensive knife even (I bought a Sebenza, years ago)--but if I wanted to buy another one, well, that would be harder to get past her. LOL! And, personally, I too would be hard pressed to justify spending another $100 or more on a keyboard, since I just spent $70 on my Model M. I decided on the Model M because it's a classic and I wanted to experience it, and also because I got a "new" (i.e. newer) computer here at work when my old one died, and it's an IBM ThinkCentre. And my monitor is an IBM ThinkVision. And so, when I got my keyboard, it formed a nice matched set of IBM components! Well, the mouse is a Logitech, but that's OK.

Still, good to know about the Northgate. I picked up my two Apple Extended Keyboard II's at a Church rummage sale and a Salvation Army Thrift store for $4 ea, so who knows? It's not impossible to believe that I might run across a Northgate.  I can dream, anyway!


----------



## LLCoolBeans

js said:


> I was kidding about using the caps lock key more. I, like most serious computer users, use the CTRL key way more--the keyboard is always faster than the mouse. And at home I use a Mac, and OS X, in system preferences, makes it very easy to redefine keyboard keys. As for the windows and Linux stuff, here at work I barely have the authority to change the effing time on my computer, let alone install applications and make system changes. The computer group locks those things down tight. Never mind that I am trusted with operating a $125,000 API laser tracker, and am entrusted with operating and being responsible for the entire accelerator. That, apparently, must pale in comparison to being given administrator priviledges on my own damn machine. It annoys me so much that I bought a Macbook Pro on my own dime so I could have an unhampered computer experience here at work when I want. So, the point is that I would almost certainly not be able to get software like you are talking about installed on my machine. I couldn't even get a different web browser installed unless I could "justify" it. Just because I like a different one doesn't cut it.



Well, that's frustrating. Yea, I guess in that case you'd actually need a board, but it sounds like there's no reason you can't try it on your personal machine.



js said:


> Anyway, while I appreciate the offer(s) and the recommendation on the HHK and Northgate, I almost certainly will just "settle" for my IBM Model M here at work. I like it, and while I can usually spend money to get what I want, my wife looks very askance at multiples. i.e. I can buy a knife--a very expensive knife even (I bought a Sebenza, years ago)--but if I wanted to buy another one, well, that would be harder to get past her. LOL! And, personally, I too would be hard pressed to justify spending another $100 or more on a keyboard, since I just spent $70 on my Model M. I decided on the Model M because it's a classic and I wanted to experience it, and also because I got a "new" (i.e. newer) computer here at work when my old one died, and it's an IBM ThinkCentre. And my monitor is an IBM ThinkVision. And so, when I got my keyboard, it formed a nice matched set of IBM components! Well, the mouse is a Logitech, but that's OK.
> 
> Still, good to know about the Northgate. I picked up my two Apple Extended Keyboard II's at a Church rummage sale and a Salvation Army Thrift store for $4 ea, so who knows? It's not impossible to believe that I might run across a Northgate.  I can dream, anyway!



Wow, $70 is that what those are going for now? I have about two large rubbermade bins full of those old IBM boards out in my garage. Maybe I should start selling them on eBay?

Don't get me wrong, I like the old IBM battleship boards, except for the [Caps] issue, that is. That is definitely a quality board.


----------



## fluorescent

I'm using a 1993 M here at work ( it is my personal kb )


----------



## js

LLCoolBeans,

A very good condition, cleaned, tested white label IBM Model M 1391401 keyboard goes for about that, yes. I'm sure I paid a bit of a premium ordering from www.clickykeyboards.com, but for me it was worth it. It came with a guarantee / return policy, and was fully tested and cleaned and all that. Plus, I like that company and was happy to support it. I tend to avoid ebay unless I have no other choice, or know the seller well.

As for my personal machine, I'm quite happy with the Apple Extended Keyboard II or the new Apple Keyboard kit which I mentioned (and linked to), and my wife would not go for yet another keyboard. Plus, we're about to upgrade our desktop machine.

fluorescent,

It's a neat keyboard, isn't it?


----------



## LLCoolBeans

Just in case you are interested, here are some links to videos showing the HHK Professional 2 in action.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b5CeNunbHto
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oIfnRy0y50o
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t1XBmmsP2gI

This one shows the Lite 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fZXerMPJoW0


----------



## LLCoolBeans

Started learning DVORAK last night. So, I've gone from about 80 WPM to about 12, but I can already tell that I will soon be blowing 80 WPM away.

It's not just a little more efficient, it's WAY more efficient!

Querty = 30% of keystrokes on the home row.
DVORAK = 70% of keystrokes on the home row.

You absolutely must try it!


----------



## js

Cool . . .

I'm impressed, LLCoolBeans! You talk the talk _and_ walk the walk.


----------



## ckthorp

LLCoolBeans said:


> Started learning DVORAK last night. So, I've gone from about 80 WPM to about 12, but I can already tell that I will soon be blowing 80 WPM away.
> 
> It's not just a little more efficient, it's WAY more efficient!
> 
> Querty = 30% of keystrokes on the home row.
> DVORAK = 70% of keystrokes on the home row.
> 
> You absolutely must try it!


Fantastic! The only warning I have is to keep an eye on your typing output. It is very easy to interchange vowels by mistake.


----------



## jam

I've got 3 Model Ms and 1 Northgate.

The Model Ms have been flawless for years, and the switchable caps are great for cleaning. The Northgate suffers from the occasional (slightly) sticky key.

Given that the Northgate cost about 5 times more than each of the Model Ms, the IBM keyboards are far better value for money. The only reason not to use a Model M is if you don't want to deafen people around you


----------



## ElectronGuru

js said:


> As for my personal machine, I'm quite happy with the Apple Extended Keyboard II



The Matias Tactile Pro is said to mimic the AEKI. Version 1 was quite serious. Version 2 is here:

http://matias.ca/tactilepro2/

Version 3 is due next spring. All three come with USB and Mac ready keys.


----------



## Lumenshroom

Sorry, but you can't beat the Optimus Maximus imo.

The price tag sucks but it doesn't get better than it.


----------



## SilentK

I am a pretty big dvorak fan. i can type a good bit faster on one than a qwerty keyboard. about 15-20 wpm faster.  not to mention that i can type longer without starting to feel like cutting off my hands. i have had a big delema the past few months with keyboards, i could not find one suitable for gaming and for typing. i have had a logitech g15 scince they first came out. however i traded it for something else. (not keyboard wise, but something else) so now i am on the hunt for a keyboard and will probably go with the das keyboard. but i worry about every keyboard i get with the letter printed on the keys, because those long nights of gaming wear the lettering down to noithing. like the keyboard i am typing on now has WASD, alt, and R already worn down to nothing. several others on their way. the bad thing is, i have not learned to touch type on a qwerty keyboard. so i will soon have to learn! :shakehead i can only touch type on a dvorak. if only DAS made a dvorak keyboard.


----------



## ckthorp

SilentK said:


> i can only touch type on a dvorak.



If you can touch type, then it doesn't matter what's printed on the keys... Just switch your OS to Dvorak and rock&roll.


----------



## SilentK

ckthorp said:


> If you can touch type, then it doesn't matter what's printed on the keys... Just switch your OS to Dvorak and rock&roll.



How can i go upon doing this?  sounds great!

Edit: Figured it out! YES!


----------



## Lumenshroom

Too hard to get used to Dvarok for me, but I can already get 100+ WPM if I want.


----------



## SilentK

Lumenshroom said:


> Too hard to get used to Dvarok for me, but I can already get 100+ WPM if I want.



Wow. i can only do around 60-70 on a qwerty. around 90 on dvorak. i am now making my on dvorak keyboard. i found an old gateway keyboard with identical keys. so now i am sitting here with a knife popping out all the keys and puting them back in. its been a while scince i use a dvorak, first few days might be a bit tough, but hey, im typing with a qwerty keyboard with dvorak now, so im not to bad.


----------



## Lumenshroom

SilentK said:


> Wow. i can only do around 60-70 on a qwerty. around 90 on dvorak. i am now making my on dvorak keyboard. i found an old gateway keyboard with identical keys. so now i am sitting here with a knife popping out all the keys and puting them back in. its been a while scince i use a dvorak, first few days might be a bit tough, but hey, im typing with a qwerty keyboard with dvorak now, so im not to bad.


Speed will come with time- I've been typing for about ten years.


----------



## Mjolnir

Well I have a G15 (version 1), and I am very satisfied with it for the most part. The backlit keys are very useful for low light, and the built in LCD is VERY useful. I can display basically every bit of info I need about my computer on it (Temperatures, fan speeds, CPU usage, RAM usage, internet usage, and a lot more).


----------



## Lumenshroom

Mjolnir said:


> Well I have a G15 (version 1), and I am very satisfied with it for the most part. The backlit keys are very useful for low light, and the built in LCD is VERY useful. I can display basically every bit of info I need about my computer on it (Temperatures, fan speeds, CPU usage, RAM usage, internet usage, and a lot more).


They're far overpriced IMO- you can do the same thing with a plugin which won't cost hundreds.


----------



## SilentK

Mjolnir said:


> Well I have a G15 (version 1), and I am very satisfied with it for the most part. The backlit keys are very useful for low light, and the built in LCD is VERY useful. I can display basically every bit of info I need about my computer on it (Temperatures, fan speeds, CPU usage, RAM usage, internet usage, and a lot more).




i loved my g15 version 1. i used most of the g keys and i used some 3rd party software (forgot what it was called) that let me display anything i wanted. it was the one of the best keyboards i ever used. (clickys still rule)


----------



## Mjolnir

It doesn't cost hundreds at all; I bought it for around $80. It definitely is worth it. Not only does it have a screen, but 18 physical macro keys (with 3 "banks" of keys for a total of 54 "virtual" keys), LED backlit keys (no CREEs, however), a lock for the windows key, and usb ports. 
The new G19, however (which DOES cost hundreds) is completely not worth it. For the $200 it costs, you could buy a G15 and a 17 inch monitor which would essentially be the same as the G19, but with a much bigger screen.


----------



## Lynx_Arc

I just built a new computer last year and had to buy an adapter to use my 1991 keytronics keyboard which is still going strong with no wear on the print on the keys. I doubt I could get a made in USA keyboard like this any more.... no windoze keys and a small enter key with a \ | key above it. I once spilled grape soda on it but dissasembled it and cleaned it with water then alcohol. I do have a programmable keytronics *Flash* keyboard that I barely use on a second computer you can program it with or without the driver which may not work on windows anymore (16 bit app).


----------



## ckthorp

Lynx_Arc said:


> I doubt I could get a made in USA keyboard like this any more.... no windoze keys and a small enter key with a \ | key above it.


So like this layout?






If so, they're still being made right here in the USA in Lexington, Kentucky by Unicomp off of the old Model-M molds. Available in quiet touch and buckling spring models.


----------



## Mjolnir

How is that different from most keyboards today? Most new keyboards have the smaller enter keys, like that keyboard. Is the only other difference the lack of windows keys?


----------



## Lynx_Arc

ckthorp said:


> So like this layout?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If so, they're still being made right here in the USA in Lexington, Kentucky by Unicomp off of the old Model-M molds. Available in quiet touch and buckling spring models.


that is the one exactly. back then we called the noisy keyboards clickies and mine is a quiet one. my dad got a fujitsu instead of a keytronics like I recommended and the fujitsu lasted about 19 months before flaking out I got him a keytronics and it lasted till he died in 2006



Mjolnir said:


> How is that different from most keyboards today? Most new keyboards have the smaller enter keys, like that keyboard. Is the only other difference the lack of windows keys?


I do have a keytronics with a big enter key also..... it puts the backslash up at the top row and the backspace is a small key instea of double wide. My ketronics is rather heavy they put a heavy metal plate inside it while the flash model doesn't have a metal plate at all and feels like they pumped helium inside it compared to the heavy one. I recall one time wanting a keyboard with extra function keys on the left side but glad I didn't get it as they are wider and desktop real estate is a premium now for me as I am still using a 19" crt.


----------



## NA8

Got around to opening up my dead Northgate Omnikey Plus keyboard to see what could be done for it. Turns out things weren't as bad as I thought. The dead SPACE BAR key assembly was fixable mechanically. Some springs and clips had come loose but they had not broken off as I thought. I swapped out the working F13 and F14 switches for the dead SPACE BAR switch and the dead * key switch on the keypad. Cleaned out the dust, hairs, and crud inside the case and put everything back together. Remarkably it works again. Turns out the F13 and F14 keys are actually used for adjusting the keyboard. F13 toggles the >/. key to send only a period; and the F14 key is used to change repetition rate. Luckily the default values work the way you expect a keyboard to function. If you need a spare key switch use the F15 key. It's reserved for future use according to the documentation. The keypad * key had been dead and ignored for a year or two, but when the SPACE BAR switch goes, that really slows you down.

http://www.northgate-keyboard-repair.com/ultraplus.jpg


----------



## LuxLuthor

LLCoolBeans said:


> Just in case you are interested, here are some links to videos showing the HHK Professional 2 in action.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b5CeNunbHto



I can't believe I just sat here watching some dude type for 97 seconds, thinking it would lead up to some significant ending event. That was the best practical joke played on CPF thus far. :green:


----------



## js

So, just wanted to report that after months of using the IBM model M keyboard here at work, I like it even more than when I first posted about it. It definitely does take a bit of getting used to, and it does grow on you. So, I liked it a lot from the get go, but I like it even more now.

Having a wrist rest is key, however, as between the tall keys and the tall base, the Model M is a tall keyboard, so it helps to have a raised resting surface just in front of it to even things out--or at least it helps me.


----------



## sunday

http://www.overclock.net/computer-peripherals/491752-mechanical-keyboard-guide.html

an intro starter mechanical keyboard is the m1 abs keyboard. 

sells for $50 at newegg. if you don't mind the 90s look you can find NIB dell at101 (same alps switch) on ebay for $25.


----------



## js

Cool! Thanks for the info.

I also wanted to mention Das Keyboard. I think it was mentioned earlier, but at that point, there was only the blank model, with no markings on the keys, which is a deal breaker for me. Sorry, but I'm not that hardcore. I want my keys inscribed with their actual function! But now, there is a Das Keyboard that has the lettering on the, er, letters. It sounds like a good choice for a modern PC. It is USB, and has a windows key, etc. I think I may get one for the Lenovo D20 workstation I use.


----------



## js

OK. sunday turned me on to elitekeyboards.com.

Check it out!

Further, note that I am a lot less interested in Das Keyboard after reading the reviews on Amazon. Seems there are quality issues and issues with compatibility with other USB devices, and also poor customer service.

I am very excited right now by the Realforce 103U keyboard, as it has the function keys on the top row, which the HHKB Pro (or lite) does NOT, and I want the function keys, but it still has the same Topre action that people love about the HHKB Pro. I just might buy a Realfore keyboard. I will report back here if I do, of course! I think I might like the lower force requried vs. the force required on my Model M (which is a bit too much--I love it, but it's not perfect. The Apple Extended Keyboard II is as good or better, in my opinion, partly due to the lower force required).

Anyway, look for sunday's post to this thread, as he is doing a basic guide for mechanical keyboards that will be excellent.


----------



## js

So, I just recently set up my Apple Extended Keyboard II here in my office for use with my Lenovo D20 workstation. The iMate ADB to USB adaptor was billed as universal (PC or Mac both) and in this case, it has delivered on that promise! Other than not having a windows key and having to remember that the option key is the alt key, all is well.

And, typing on the AEK II has made me realize even more that I'm not really an IBM Model M super-fan. I prefer the lower force and shorter throw of the AEK II to the buckling spring. I think I will probably sell the Model M.

Because . . . I have ordered a Realforce 103U keyboard from EliteKeyboards. I am excited to try out the Topre action, which is the same as the HHKB which was highly praised earlier in this thread. But, don't get me wrong, the Model M is still way, waaay better than most keyboards out there. It's just too heavy an action for my taste. And yes, I do realize that when used properly, you do NOT bottom out the keys. I'm there. It's not an issue of me needing to learn how to type on this particular style of action. I've lived with 'er for a long enough time now to say that my preference lies elsewhere.

More to come when I have had some time with the Realforce 103U.


----------



## js

I am typing this response on the Realfore 103 with the Topre action, and my first impression is not what I was hoping. I do NOT see what the big deal is with this action right now. It is the exact same action as the Happy Hacking Keyboard Pro--the one that was touted so highly by LLCoolBeans in this thread above. Well, OK, the weighting of the keys in the RF103 is varied slightly depending on their position, whereas in the HHKB the weighting is constant. But, that's a very small difference.

But this is just a first impression. I'm going to give it some time, of course.

But right now, my favorite keyboard is definitely the Apple Extended Keyboard II, with the IBM Model M a definite 2nd, but still good.

As for the Matias, I believe I already mentioned that (1) it no longer uses Alps keyswitch mechanisms, and (2) there have been reports of poor quality or inconsistent quality, and of "ghosting" of keys. This is mentioned in the link in sunday's post above.

Anyway, I actually am starting to like this Realforce keyboard more, as I type more on it. So, my first impression may well be contradicted as I get used to this keyboard and experience it. After all, I am coming from the Model M, which is a seriously heavy and clicky action, to a keyboard which actually doesn't have a mechanical action at all. I shall see.


----------



## mwaldron

I'll throw up Deck Keyboards for consideration as well. 

They're extremely tough and durable, and they can be purchased in both tactile and linear keyswitch designs. They can be purchased in Mac or PC keycap configuration, and each keycap is individually removable and replaceable. 

Each individual key has a single LED under it to light that key, and they are globally dimmable through an FN key. 

I've had mine for approximately 5 years now, and I've worn off the texturing of the space bar but that is the only visible sign of wear on it. The backlit keys are some unknown material laser cut so only the letter illuminates and so far that shows no wear at all. 

The feel of this keyboard is 2nd only to my old buckling spring IBM keyboard. 

Decks parent company, TG3 Electronics, has been in business for eons making extremly high quality durable keyboards for harsh environments and they spun some of their products into Deck a few years ago to give them an edgy gamer appeal. 

They're anything but cheap, but if I had the money I did when I bought my first one I'd buy more so every machine I used had one.

Deck Keyboards
TG3 Electronics


----------



## manoloco

js said:


> I am typing this response on the Realfore 103 with the Topre action, and my first impression is not what I was hoping. I do NOT see what the big deal is with this action right now. It is the exact same action as the Happy Hacking Keyboard Pro--the one that was touted so highly by LLCoolBeans in this thread above. Well, OK, the weighting of the keys in the RF103 is varied slightly depending on their position, whereas in the HHKB the weighting is constant. But, that's a very small difference.
> 
> But this is just a first impression. I'm going to give it some time, of course.
> 
> But right now, my favorite keyboard is definitely the Apple Extended Keyboard II, with the IBM Model M a definite 2nd, but still good.
> 
> As for the Matias, I believe I already mentioned that (1) it no longer uses Alps keyswitch mechanisms, and (2) there have been reports of poor quality or inconsistent quality, and of "ghosting" of keys. This is mentioned in the link in sunday's post above.
> 
> Anyway, I actually am starting to like this Realforce keyboard more, as I type more on it. So, my first impression may well be contradicted as I get used to this keyboard and experience it. After all, I am coming from the Model M, which is a seriously heavy and clicky action, to a keyboard which actually doesn't have a mechanical action at all. I shall see.



you still havent tried keyboards with cherry mx switches have you?, if you ever decide to do it, you will be in for a real treat, specially models with cherry mx blue or brown switches. i have tried many of the keyboards and switches mentioned here (alps, apple extended II, model m, nmb mechanical, cherry mx, etc.) none compares to the Cherry ones.

Deck ones i think use the Cherry MX black switches, which are completely linear.

I like the Cherry MX brown or maroon the most, i liked them as soon as i laid my fingers on them, and i like them even more as i got more time with them for me its one of the few things i could say is a 20/20, i havent tried a Lunasol 20, but if i could make an analogy, i am as happy with them as keyswitches as you are with your Lunasol 20 as a flashlight, yeah, that good.


----------



## mwaldron

manoloco said:


> Deck ones i think use the Cherry MX black switches, which are completely linear.



I'm not sure what color they are, but Deck uses both Linear and Tactile Cherry switches. According to their website "Currently our products use Cherry MX series mechanical keyswitches in 2 versions: soft tactile (MX1A-C1NW) and linear (MX1A-11NW)."


----------



## Mike V

I saw the thread title and I clicked expecting to post:

"No, you are wrong, the best keyboard ever was the Mac Extended keyboard Mk II..."


----------



## js

manoloco said:


> you still havent tried keyboards with cherry mx switches have you?, if you ever decide to do it, you will be in for a real treat, specially models with cherry mx blue or brown switches. i have tried many of the keyboards and switches mentioned here (alps, apple extended II, model m, nmb mechanical, cherry mx, etc.) none compares to the Cherry ones.
> 
> Deck ones i think use the Cherry MX black switches, which are completely linear.
> 
> I like the Cherry MX brown or maroon the most, i liked them as soon as i laid my fingers on them, and i like them even more as i got more time with them for me its one of the few things i could say is a 20/20, i havent tried a Lunasol 20, but if i could make an analogy, i am as happy with them as keyswitches as you are with your Lunasol 20 as a flashlight, yeah, that good.



Well, well! That's high freaking praise indeed! I will definitely have to try a keyboard with the Cherry keyswitches in it! The Filco Majestouch keyboards also have those keyswitches in them, as I recall.

At this point, I'm thinking I'll just have to make a review thread with my keyboards in it: AEKII, IBM Model M, Realforce, and a Cherry based board, and do a type-off sort of thing.

Problem is, I need to live with something for a while before I am willing to do a review on it. Cause first impressions are only that and can change radically. And that seems to be happening to me right now with this Realforce keyboard. I'm starting to see why people like these so much--I figure it will take me a while to adapt to the feel of this keyboard after being used to the Model M.

How does the action of the Cherry MX brown or blue compare to the AEKII? Clicky-er? Harder? Softer? More throw? Less throw?


----------



## js

Mike V said:


> I saw the thread title and I clicked expecting to post:
> 
> "No, you are wrong, the best keyboard ever was the Mac Extended keyboard Mk II..."



LOL!


----------



## manoloco

js said:


> Well, well! That's high freaking praise indeed! I will definitely have to try a keyboard with the Cherry keyswitches in it! The Filco Majestouch keyboards also have those keyswitches in them, as I recall.
> 
> At this point, I'm thinking I'll just have to make a review thread with my keyboards in it: AEKII, IBM Model M, Realforce, and a Cherry based board, and do a type-off sort of thing.
> 
> Problem is, I need to live with something for a while before I am willing to do a review on it. Cause first impressions are only that and can change radically. And that seems to be happening to me right now with this Realforce keyboard. I'm starting to see why people like these so much--I figure it will take me a while to adapt to the feel of this keyboard after being used to the Model M.
> 
> How does the action of the Cherry MX brown or blue compare to the AEKII? Clicky-er? Harder? Softer? More throw? Less throw?



From memory (not at home atm, at work but just so you see how serious i am about them i have a Cherry MX brown based keyboard that i use here too  - Compaq MX 11800 ):

Throw is similar, but the MX brown is smoother, click is less hard it just barely "feels", overall snappier but smoother (i know sounds almost contradictory, which in this case is a good thing), easier to press (seems to require less force).

Thing is first impression with cherry mx brown for me was amazing and the adaptation to them was an efficency pleasure, i know this is my case and tactile stuff can be very subjective, but really, try it! 

there are plenty of old keyboards from the 80s that use these switches, and since they are rated for 20-50 million keypresses, most are in top condition, and can be found for around $40, newer ones coming directly from Cherry inc. of course are a lot more expensive, the Deck one is a good example, but i do like the brown switches more than the blue or black ones.


----------



## js

manoloco,

Thanks! In that thread linked in sunday's post, the OP rates the blue switches as 10/10 for typing, but the brown as 8/10. The blue has a tactile click, whereas the brown doesn't, or only just barely does, with a "rounded" feel, and the black is linear--no tactile click.

I generally like a click, but I'm thinking that the blue might be too much like the AEKII. And if you've tried the blue and prefer the brown, that's good to know.

Thanks!


----------



## manoloco

Glad to help, i have a photobucket gallery with some keyboards i acquired over the years, all bought used, in great condition from the second hand electronic maket in Peru (will post them in a moment but the interesting thing is feeling them, maybe the pics will help identify them in the wild). 

What is great is that some companies get rid of their stuff pretty often (PC wise), and send them away in containers to other countries as junk bulk (specially 3rd world ones).

I have found a few jewels, at unbelievable prices (mostly $2, some other stuff costed me more), and i have seen them on ebay at quite higher prices, in worse condition than what i have found. 

What was expensive was the time it took me to try, search, clean and sometimes restore them, but i enjoyed every second of it.

Now as time moves, newer keyboards have taken the place of the mechanical ones in the used market, and truth be told, they suck; i have looked a couple of times more, but the old jewels seem to be gone , i have a couple of big tupper containers with around 25 keyboards that i kept, some i gifted to friends that type/game a lot, but i have my Cherry backups, some Dell with alps, a couple of NMB mechanical, an apple extended II, some model M (english keys, spanish keys, and italian), including the black model with the pointer in the middle, and some other stuff i dont remember right away.

**edit: i just re-read the whole thread and saw i already posted pics quite some time ago, there also was a mistake when i shown the NMB black magic keys, they were mistaken as model M keys, those NMB are quite rare, and have a nice action, altough i like more the Cherry ones, it might be because the NMB ones dont age as well, the Cherry ones feel exactly the same as the 4 or more years i have been using the same keyboard.

as reference the posts i placed info and pics are:
#70
#72
#81

i never did post Model M pics as there are plenty floating around on the web.

Also the blue ones i havent tried, i just recommended them as there seems to be quite a following, from the cherry ones i have tried: maroon, brown, black. from them i like the brown one the most but its very very close to the maroon ones (maybe its just a cosmetic difference added with years of operation?), i would like to try a blue one but havent found, however im not that big on audible click, silent is better, i like to feel the keys, the audible part usually comes AFTER the key has registered, tactile sense is much much faster for me, the click becomes almost an annoyance, specially if you type fast. However i remember reading that Cherry designed the blue ones with that in mind, and the part that clicks is a little before the contact point, but if you click it will help it reach that point too, really good engineering.


----------



## js

Aiight, I have to say that my first impression of this Topre keyboard is rapidly doing a 180. I'm really starting to like it. The action is VERY light compared to what I have been used to, but as I acclimate to it, I find I can type very fast and that the experience is very enjoyable. The action is very precise and reponsive, despite how light it is. It has a "solid" feel even as it is a light feel. Very strange. I also have to say that this keyboard is VERY well made. The plastic is of the highest quality, and the base is heavy and solid and everything is aligned perfectly and precisely. Precise. That's the word that most comes to mind about this Realforce 103U Topre keyboard. Precise and balanced. Everything conspires just-so to make for a wonderful whole. Impressive. One review I read of this keyboard (or a very close relative--a 101 key version of this one) was one where the reviewer had previously owned a HHKB Pro and mentioned that it was lighter and slightly less solid than the Realforce. Although, that wasn't why he got rid of his HHKB. He wanted the extra keys on the Realforce. The actions were very very similar, he said, but that the Realforce was slightly more solid.

Anyway, this is a nice keyboard. I'll live with it for half a year or so and see what my final judgment is, and I'm also going to get my hands on a Cherry MX keyboard. Maybe I'll do a review thread comparing the AEKII, IBM M, Topre, and Cherry MX boards. That would be fun!


----------



## AndrewZorn

as if you can lump all the MX switches into one.

PFU Happy Hacking Pro 2
Filco Majestouch 104 Cherry Brown
Filco Zero Series 87 Fukka (not used yet)
IBM Model M13 Black (not used yet)
Dell AT101W (not used yet)

working on getting the Cherry Blue G80-3000


----------



## js

AndrewZorn,

I never suggested you could lump all the MX switches into one. Hence the reason for the plural in the next to the last sentence of post #145. Plus, I was just discussing with manoloco which MX switch I might want to try first, brown or blue, just a few posts up.

I'd love to hear your thoughts on the subject if you want to add them to this thread. I think I'm going to try a Cherry MX Blue first, since I understand that the Topre action is most similar to the Cherry MX Brown action--but still definitely different.


----------



## js

In any case, AndrewZorn, I love your avatar!

I should also mention that AndrewZorn is a member of geekhack.org and is quite knowledgeable about keyboards. I highly recommend that forum to anyone who wants to know more about keyboards, what's what, how to mod them, reviews, anything and everything. Really great stuff over there, and good people too, from what I can see.

As for my Realforce Topre 103U board, it is now, by a significant margin, _my favorite keyboard of all time_. I have taken the red pill, gone down the rabbit hole, and there doesn't seem to be any going back. As I understand it, it is normal for people to take a week or so to get used to a Topre board, but after that, they either love it or hate it, no inbetweens. Well, I love the Topre action. I'm so very impressed! And I'm thinking seriously about getting a Realforce 87U and a HHKB Pro 2 (more the former than the latter).

I may do a review thread of all or some of the boards I have experience with at some point, but for now, I just have to say that the Topre key action is amazing. Awesome. I'm hooked. I can see why LLCoolBeans talked so highly about the HHKB Pro--I haven't used one of those yet, but it has the same keyswitches as my 103U. Freaking amazing.


----------



## pipspeak

js said:


> Aiight, I have to say that my first impression of this Topre keyboard is rapidly doing a 180. I'm really starting to like it. The action is VERY light compared to what I have been used to, but as I acclimate to it, I find I can type very fast and that the experience is very enjoyable. The action is very precise and reponsive, despite how light it is. It has a "solid" feel even as it is a light feel. Very strange. I also have to say that this keyboard is VERY well made.


 
Second that... I just got a 103U and was blown away by the feel of it. It's like nothing else I've ever typed on and the wonderful soft clacking sound is very soothing. Someone described is as like typing on small clay tablets, but I'll add to that -- it's like typing on small clay tablets damped by soft butter. 

To use an automotive suspension metaphor -- the Realforce is like a car with coils and independent suspension to the Model M's fixed axles with leaf springs. 

It is also built like a tank. The case has zero flex anywhere and the keys have minimal wobble. My Model M is also built like a tank, but only in the sense that you could drive over it with a car and it would survive. The Realforce is built like a tank in the sense that everything feels precisely engineered and uses the highest quality materials.


----------



## js

pipsqueak,

Indeed! Unlike even expensive rubber dome keyboards from Logitech, the Realforce boards and the HHKB Pro's look just as good (if not better) inside as outside, and are made to a very high standard of quality and are very, very reliable. In other words, well made, high quality, _modern_ keyboards! Who would have thought!

Personally, honestly, I'm feeling like the Topre boards are a real bargain right now relative to what they will be in a year or two, and I am inclined to buy one or two just as an investment. Well, that's not true. I'm tempted to buy another one or two just because I love them so much and would not want to be without a backup, and because I am curious about the 87 key boards and the HHKB (and whether I could get along with its minimalist layout) and because I wonder what the black on dark grey Realforce boards look like in real life and whether or not I'd grow to love the stealth look, or just be annoyed with the lack of legibility in low light conditions. So, the fact that I think these boards are a _relative_ bargain right now is just the _excuse_ I need to go a bit crazy on the Topre boards.

I'm also interested in checking out the Cherry Blue Filco Majestouch boards, but I've gotta say that I really am liking the _quiet_ nature of the Topre action. Clicky is cool and fun and all, but after a long while, it starts to wear on you a bit--or it did me, anyway. LOL!


----------



## AndrewZorn

sorry to get back here so late,
and for the wrong assumption for MX switches.

i haven't been doing the keyboard thing for that long, especially compared to many others on geekhack.

yes, brown is very close to topre... but those are the only two i have even used! cherry blue is the only major one i'm missing (but that's on order) (ignoring black, which i dont think i really want), but none of the other ones are here with me, so i get to use them all at once in february.


----------



## tsmith35

kingoftf said:


> This one looks absolutely amazing but it is still Proof of Concept. The developers have no idea when to offer for almost 3 years now.
> Price should be around 1200 Dollar



Looks like they offer it for sale now... the Optimum Maximum. Only $1692.

My favorite old keyboard is the Keytronics KB 101 Plus. I don't use it anymore, since I started using a Microsoft Natural keyboard (to reduce the risk of CTS), but the KB101 was fast, serviceable, and reliable.


----------



## js

AndrewZorn said:


> sorry to get back here so late,
> and for the wrong assumption for MX switches.
> 
> i haven't been doing the keyboard thing for that long, especially compared to many others on geekhack.
> 
> yes, brown is very close to topre... but those are the only two i have even used! cherry blue is the only major one i'm missing (but that's on order) (ignoring black, which i dont think i really want), but none of the other ones are here with me, so i get to use them all at once in february.



Let us know what you think of the Cherry blue!

And which do you like better? Cherry brown or Topre?


----------



## AndrewZorn

they are still very different, even though they are considered very similar.

the browns are much lighter and mechanical feeling.

the topre is smooth, soft, and better built (only a characteristic because only the topre boards have topre switches)


----------



## turbodog

I've followed this thread from the beginning, and contributed some also.

I'm lazy right now.

Could someone point me RIGHT to a website (link) where I can buy:
101/104 keyboard (101 perferable)
in ps/2 or usb (adapter preferred)

with cherry blue
and cherry brown

Yes, I want to buy both keyboards and compare to my nmb keyboard. Willing to go up to about $100-125 per board. I expect to pick my favorite and return/sell the other board, then buy another of the one I liked most.


Std inverted T arrow keys, function keys, etc. No funkyness...

My nmb has a key dying....


----------



## js

turbodog,

EliteKeyboards is where I would go to buy a Cherry board. Their Filco Majestouch boards are superior to most other Cherry boards from what I have read (except possibly the boards made by Cherry itself), and there was a great review thread at geekhack comparing the Majestouch to the Das Keyboard, much to the latters' disadvantage.

Here is the Filco 104 key Majestouch page. The page has both blue and brown, but note that the blue is out of stock until December (whatever exactly that means--probably early to mid December, I suspect). These boards are standard, as you like, and work with either USB or PS2, and come with said adaptor. I would definitely recommend the bit of extra coin for the NKRO models, as it indicates superior circuitry inside. Never get a non N-Key Rollover board, in my opinion, FWIW.

If you go to geekhack and do some looking about, I think there's a thread that lists all the various boards that use Cherry keyswitches, but from what I have seen, you either want the Filco or the Cherry boards themselves.

I've been quite happy with EliteKeyboards service and shipping and packing. Top notch. And this seems to be the general impression over at geekhack.

Hope that helped.


----------



## turbodog

Yeah, thanks. Sort of an exec summary. I have been on (and posted) the forums over at geekhack. My perfect scenario would be to find someone that could directly compare my nmb to some modern board.

Scratch that.... perfect would be to find an nmb board new, with ps/2 or usb plug.

I will miss the nmb key switches and layout. It's got an odd layout, with a backward L enter key and some weirdness with backspace and backslash.

Will order soon.

Thanks.


----------



## wquiles

Thanks js for the great summary and links. I just ordered one of the Filco 104 key Majestouch (Brown switch). I currently type with a Key Tronic "Lifetime Series" 104-key, and I find the keys take too much force to actuate, and the keys are fairly noisy as well, so I am hoping the Filco will be a good improvement 

Will


----------



## manoloco

turbodog said:


> Yeah, thanks. Sort of an exec summary. I have been on (and posted) the forums over at geekhack. My perfect scenario would be to find someone that could directly compare my nmb to some modern board.
> 
> Scratch that.... perfect would be to find an nmb board new, with ps/2 or usb plug.
> 
> I will miss the nmb key switches and layout. It's got an odd layout, with a backward L enter key and some weirdness with backspace and backslash.
> 
> Will order soon.
> 
> Thanks.


 
Man, you werent kidding when you said you felt lazy , you have already asked this before on post #80, i answered in post #81 of this same thread, there are some pics to compare with too.

Are those the switches you have?, those are NMB black magic, they are nice, but nowere near smooth as Cherry MX brown, however it might be your cup of tea, or my NMB could be old enough to feel different (i now doubt this as i have a couple of them and both feel the same and the register of the keys is crispy, its the action that i like better on the MX brown, and definitely requires more force than the browns.

The click sound on them is not annoying at all which for me is a plus.


----------



## js

wquiles said:


> Thanks js for the great summary and links. I just ordered one of the Filco 104 key Majestouch (Brown switch). I currently type with a Key Tronic "Lifetime Series" 104-key, and I find the keys take too much force to actuate, and the keys are fairly noisy as well, so I am hoping the Filco will be a good improvement
> 
> Will



Will,

No prob! Hey, so what does the Key Tronic use? I was thinking maybe you were implying that it used Blue Cherry MX switches, or something similar, which is why you went with the Filco Brown Cherry MX board? Is that so? Right now, I'm interested in anything and everything I can hear about the Cherry Blue switches, so let me know if my inference is correct!


----------



## wquiles

js said:


> Will,
> 
> No prob! Hey, so what does the Key Tronic use? I was thinking maybe you were implying that it used Blue Cherry MX switches, or something similar, which is why you went with the Filco Brown Cherry MX board? Is that so? Right now, I'm interested in anything and everything I can hear about the Cherry Blue switches, so let me know if my inference is correct!



I honestly have no clue what they use. I bought my keyboard about a year ago, and best I can find was this link with some information:
keyboard product specs ...

They mention something there "now shipping with Ergo technology", but my keyboard says nothing of the sort, so I might have an oder model:
Ergo Technology ...

Mine is not an expensive keyboard, so I doubt is has fancy Cherry switches - in fact I think it is a membrane, typical of the lower cost keyboards:
cnet review ...

Will


----------



## manoloco

js said:


> Will,
> 
> No prob! Hey, so what does the Key Tronic use? I was thinking maybe you were implying that it used Blue Cherry MX switches, or something similar, which is why you went with the Filco Brown Cherry MX board? Is that so? Right now, I'm interested in anything and everything I can hear about the Cherry Blue switches, so let me know if my inference is correct!



affordable true MX blue keyboard:

Scorpius M-10

seems to have nice reviews, and i would try one, if shipping to Peru werent so expensive.


----------



## js

manoloco said:


> affordable true MX blue keyboard:
> 
> Scorpius M-10
> 
> seems to have nice reviews, and i would try one, if shipping to Peru werent so expensive.



Hmmm. Yeah, I saw that. But cost is no object for me, so I'm more interested in the Filco Majestouch Blue Cherry MX boards. In particular, I think I'll get the 87 key board special edition with the red escape key (worth a whole diamond, they're so coveted and rare! The *RED* escape key is the end all and be all of all :bow: :bow: :bow: ) hehe.

I would also get the 87 key Realforce Topre board--in fact I WILL get one--but I just can't convince myself that there is any way I could get along with freaking black on dark gray! That's just so hip it's for people who have difficulty seeing over their pelvis. Way too hip for me, in other words. On top of the fact that I'm told you can't make out the lettering in dim light, I personally don't even think it looks good in any of the pictures I've seen. Well, except for the red escape key on black. That does look cool. So, anyway, I'll wait until Feb '10 when they will probably have the 87U in white.

In the meantime, I'll see if I prefer that 10 key less board style to a full size board and also check out the blue cherry mx switches at the same time.

I also gave a lot of thought to the HHKB Pro 2, but enough of the keystrokes would require two hands that it just doesn't appeal to me. Plus, I don't mind the larger size of the ten keyless boards. I suspect that is the perfect compromise for me.


----------



## Josey

I bought the Realforce 103 Topre. My old Logitech was cranky and sticky. Sometimes a key would not come back up, and I'd generate line after line of the same letter until I could bang or pry it free. And it had a lousy touch at best. This keyboard is a dream, and I'm not even used to it. My early tendency is to hit the keys a little too hard, but I should adjust.

However, I would caution anyone about buying the black model. The letters are black on black, which means invisible in most angles of light. It's not really a problem for letters, but I have to look at numbers and dollar signs and asterisks and such. Might get interesting with online banking. I wish I would have gotten the white model, where the letters are visible.

I can't say that I like it as well as the old IBM Selectric I used to use, but it's a huge step up from anything I've used since. And this model is quite a bit more expensive than the Filco. I haven't tried the Filcos with Cherry switches, but probably will because a keyboard I can't see is not something I'll probably keep. But in any event, it's difficult to see where this keyboard could have that much value over the Filco, unless the Filco was just awful.

The website shows the keys as muted, but easily visible. And in the best light from the right angles, that is an accurate photo. But I've found that the light is not typically ideal, and the keys are very difficult to see. Here's an example of what I most often see:


----------



## wquiles

Got my Filco keyboard with the brown switches today. First impressions:
- smaller and lighter than the Keytronic it replaces, but feels very sturdy/high quality.
- the key presses are in fact lighter than in the Keytronic - I like it.
- although these keys do not have the click of the other cherry switches, the keys are not quiet at all. You still hear a distinct noise/click/press on each key.
- I am finding that I am hitting the keys way too hard - I need less pressure to get the keys to work. It will definitely take me some time to adjust to the lighter typing, but again, I like it how it feels so far 

Will


----------



## turbodog

They are out of filco blue cherry models, but I will order soon as they come in.


----------



## manoloco

wquiles said:


> Got my Filco keyboard with the brown switches today. First impressions:
> - smaller and lighter than the Keytronic it replaces, but feels very sturdy/high quality.
> - the key presses are in fact lighter than in the Keytronic - I like it.
> - although these keys do not have the click of the other cherry switches, the keys are not quiet at all. You still hear a distinct noise/click/press on each key.
> - I am finding that I am hitting the keys way too hard - I need less pressure to get the keys to work. It will definitely take me some time to adjust to the lighter typing, but again, I like it how it feels so far
> 
> Will


 
That noise/audible click you are hearing is from the key bottoming, not exactly a click in the traditional way of mechanical keyboards, i doesnt really need to bottom to be activated, but the distance is very close so it will be usual that you hear that noise; with time you will find that the noise will get lower (you will bottom with less force), the key has a click, but its tactile, you will get used to taking advantage of it.

This is very close to what i felt the first time i used the cherry mx brown, you know theres more in store for when you acclimate to it, but you enjoy them from the first time you touch the keys.


----------



## AndrewZorn

Josey, I wouldn't give up that fast. You said it yourself, you are only 10 keys short of having a standard layout completely memorized. This is a good thing.


----------



## Rexlion

I just came across this thread and wanted to comment that I've been using a Goldtouch keyboard for a couple of years now and wouldn't be without it. The Goldtouch has a joint in the middle that lets me custom set the split angle and the center height. I was having some wrist pain from keyboarding and the pain went away when I went to the Goldtouch. (When I took some classes and used a laptop last year my wrists started bothering again, but it let up after the classes ended... proof to me that the Goldtouch works.)

I don't have a model M to compare to, but the Goldtouch keys do have a definite clicky feel and sound to them. They aren't mushy like a cheap keyboard; the keys have an initial resistance before taking a positive downward plunge accompanied by sound, and one can easily tell when that resistance is overcome. Perhaps they work somewhat similarly to your venerable IBM favorite?


----------



## wquiles

manoloco said:


> That noise/audible click you are hearing is from the key bottoming, not exactly a click in the traditional way of mechanical keyboards, i doesnt really need to bottom to be activated, but the distance is very close so it will be usual that you hear that noise; with time you will find that the noise will get lower (you will bottom with less force), the key has a click, but its tactile, you will get used to taking advantage of it.
> 
> This is very close to what i felt the first time i used the cherry mx brown, you know theres more in store for when you acclimate to it, but you enjoy them from the first time you touch the keys.



That actually makes a lot of sense as I am used to having to hit the keys a lot harder on the other keyboards I had. In fact, after using this Filco keyboard last night, I went to my day job today and it was shocking how hard I had to hit the keys on my keyboard at work. What sucks is that I might just have to bite the bullet and get a second one for work!


----------



## manoloco

Rexlion said:


> I just came across this thread and wanted to comment that I've been using a Goldtouch keyboard for a couple of years now and wouldn't be without it. The Goldtouch has a joint in the middle that lets me custom set the split angle and the center height. I was having some wrist pain from keyboarding and the pain went away when I went to the Goldtouch. (When I took some classes and used a laptop last year my wrists started bothering again, but it let up after the classes ended... proof to me that the Goldtouch works.)
> 
> I don't have a model M to compare to, but the Goldtouch keys do have a definite clicky feel and sound to them. They aren't mushy like a cheap keyboard; the keys have an initial resistance before taking a positive downward plunge accompanied by sound, and one can easily tell when that resistance is overcome. Perhaps they work somewhat similarly to your venerable IBM favorite?


 
I have a Goldtouch, i would definitely LOVE it if it had cherry mx switches, the advantage of positioning the keyboard to your specific position is great, the keys while not great, are ok for a membrane board, but you really need to try the cherry mx switches or other ones described here.

i had luck with that board, found it used in great condition for 15 soles (around $5 usd, even a little bit less).

however like you state, it works, and it works great once you find a perfect position for your hands, feels very nice and relaxed to type in a natural position.


----------



## manoloco

wquiles said:


> That actually makes a lot of sense as I am used to having to hit the keys a lot harder on the other keyboards I had. In fact, after using this Filco keyboard last night, I went to my day job today and it was shocking how hard I had to hit the keys on my keyboard at work. What sucks is that I might just have to bite the bullet and get a second one for work!


 

i had to do that too, using other colleagues computers becomes a chore after using the mx switches, when someone asks me about something about their pcs and i need to type on their keyboards the difference is major, like typing with molasses on keys that seem to be other shape than the sockets they fit into. maybe a good moment to try a cheaper used mx board? they might be around 20-30 on ebay.


----------



## js

Josey,

You might be able to get someone over at geekhack to trade his or her white 103U for your black one. Worth a try maybe?

But, I'm sorry about the visibility thing. I thought long and hard about the black on black 87U special edition and I posted over at geekhack and asked about visibility and what the board looked like in real life, and I came to the inescapable conclusion that it wasn't much different than a totally blank keyboard in all but bright light. And that was just not OK with me. So, I'll just have to wait until the 87U is available in white.

Another idea: you could sell your black 103U on ebay--most Realforce aficionados seem to _prefer_ black according to the owner of elitekeyboards.com. Then just buy a 103U in white.

But, yeah, even if I did think the black on black looked cool, I still wouldn't go for it, because I need to look at the keyboard when typing in passwords and special characters that I don't normally use, and also just in time to time in general, although mostly I'm a touch typist and don't look at the keyboard at all. But still . . . black on black? Not for me.


----------



## Josey

Thanks, Jim:

95 percent of the time I absolutely love this board. But the keys are close to impossible to see unless I adjust the light just right. My typing is much faster than it was on my old Logitech. But every so often I come to a complete stop while I go looking for some symbol with my flashlight. 

I think I'll wait until the Filco Blue Cherries are out and try that. Then I'll sell the board I like less. But this is still fun. Thank you for this thread.


----------



## js

You're welcome, Josey! I'll be interested to hear your impression of the blue cherry board. Do post here when/if you get one.

I was definitely going to get the Filco tenkeyless model, but then the power adaptor on my Macbook Pro died on me, and I decided I didn't really need to get the Filco--I was only wanted to do so in order to experiment with it--I definitely don't need it. So, I decided against it. But I'm still very curious about the Cherry MX switches of all types.


----------



## wquiles

Well guys, my Filco k-board has to go back  

And just as I was really starting to like it 

The problem is that after two days or so in service, the keyboard started either locking up (like going into power save mode) with no output, or it would go into this mode in which besides being locked up, it would randomly start to repeat the last key pressed for ever - weird. The only wait to reset it was to disconnect it, wait a little, and re-connect it, but this is only temporary - it will eventually fail again.

I first tried changing keyboard settings in my computer (Ubuntu 9.10) but had the same problems - it started fine, but then it got into failure mode. Since I was using the USB to PS/2 adapter, I then tried using it directly from the USB port, but the problem actually occurs even quicker under USB - weird.

I send an email to elitekeyboards and they said that yes, that was not the right behavior, and that I should first try with another OS in case it was a problem with Linux. I never had Linux and keyboard problems, but I decided to try it anyway.

I tried the keyboard through the USB port with my corporate laptop which runs Win XP, and like before, it works great for a few minutes, and then it locks up. Definitely not good.

I sent a second email to the support person (Brian) and told him that it does not work with Win XP either, and to please start the RMA procedure to replace this keyboard. Once I hear back from them (Monday?) I will let you guys know more.

Will
PS. It really sucks since I am typing this back on my older KeyTronic k-board and the difference is night and day in how much lighter and smoother I have to hit the keys in the Filco k-board 
I was ready to buy a second one for work, but I am now thinking twice about it, and perhaps I should try the Deck keyboard that has the same Cherry brown switches this Filco has


----------



## js

Hmmm. Not good. I would suggest that you do take some time to check out reviews over at geekhack forum for whatever keyboard you think you might try instead of a Filco. There's also a good roundup thread of various keyboards to check out as well. It has been my impression that the Filco boards are the best of the Cherry's except for maybe the boards that Cherry itself sells. But I'm far from having done an exhaustive amount of research on the subject!


----------



## wquiles

js said:


> Hmmm. Not good. I would suggest that you do take some time to check out reviews over at geekhack forum for whatever keyboard you think you might try instead of a Filco. There's also a good roundup thread of various keyboards to check out as well. It has been my impression that the Filco boards are the best of the Cherry's except for maybe the boards that Cherry itself sells. But I'm far from having done an exhaustive amount of research on the subject!



On Saturday I got email back from them stating that yes, I had a defective k-board, and that they are sending me a new one today (Monday), and that they will also send a pre-paid return label. That is very good service indeed!

As soon as I get my replacement k-board, I will let you know how it does. I "had" to use the old KeyTronic and I hated it - I am already spoiled :naughty:


----------



## Zelandeth

Keyboards...a thread on which I could probably ramble for a bit! So I'll probably go back and read this thread in full shortly.

I've been on the hunt for "The One True Keyboard" for quite a while now.

For me keyboards have to fit a few criteria.

1. They must be clicky.
2. There must be tactile feedback at the end of each keystroke.
3. Full size keys only please.
4. They must be heavy enough to serve as an offensive weapon in the case of zombie attack. ...Plus to ensure they stay put where I put them on the desk!

At work I discovered when helping with an office cleanup last year, a Northgate Omnikey Ultra, which had been lost behind the stationary cupboard since sometime in the mid 1990s. After a brief moment of "Oooh...what's that?" some creative use of cable ties and duct tape to retrieve it from behind said cupboard, and a few experimental keypresses, that was adopted for my desk. 

That exposed me to how nice to type on keyboards with Alps keyswitches could be. This led to me unearthing an old Apple Extended II from the loft, giving it a clean up, and purchasing an ADB - USB adaptor. Quite a nice 'board that - doesn't quite have the crispness of the Northgate, but I think that's largely due to it being a rather well worn example in my case. It's currently in service on my PC out at my parents house, which tends to get quite extensive use at the weekend. Doubt I'll ever get hold of a Northgate for home use, they just fetch far too silly money when they do actually appear for sale - and I've never seen another UK layout Omnikey Ultra appear for sale anywhere yet.

In here though, the 'board in the following photo's in use, and I can't see that changing any time soon.






Yep, it's an IBM Model M.

(For the real keyboard nerds out there, it's a 1391406 - yes one of the Lexmark ones rather than the earlier "true" IBM boards...but good enough for me!)

Noisy enough to drown out conversations, heavy enough to fall through the floor if you drop it, but without a doubt I think the nicest keyboard ever made to type on.

Other random keyboard question: Why on earth do more keyboards not have that handy little ridge above the function keys to put pens, pencils and erasers on like the Model M and the Northgates do?

...The pencils and stuff which I just scattered all over the desk when looking underneath the keyboard for the model number. *sigh*

Everyone will have their own opinions on something like this - but that's my vote. Proper buckling spring Model M. Best Keyboard. Ever.


----------



## js

Zelandeth,

Thanks for your post! If you do go back and read this thread you'll find similar stories and mutliple mentions of the IBM Model M (I have a 139401 white label "true" "real" Model M by the way. hehe. Aren't I cool?), the Apple Extended Keyboard II (which is one of my all time favorites--currently attacked to my Lenovo D20 workstation in my office, with iMate adaptor), and the Northgate Omnikey, which I don't have, have never seen, and have never typed on.

I used the IBM Model M for many months (8 to be exact), as my main board, and while I can definitely see the appeal, and I do agree that it is one of the best keyboards ever made, for me I eventually rejected it as the One Board to Rule Them All. It's just not for me. Too loud, too long a throw, a bit too much keyforce needed. I prefer the AEK II to the IBM Model M. And, recently, the Realforce 103U board with Topre keyswitches has pushed the AEK II out of top place. This board is very different than a Model M or AEK II. It doesn't click. No audible feedback. And it's not nearly as heavy as a Model M or AEK II, although it is still very solid and much heavier than your standard junk membrane keyboard. But once you get used to it, it is a dream to type on. Amazing. And very, very well made. It is truly the best keyboard being made today, quality-wise (and the HHKB Pro's, which also use Topre). Everything about the board is very high quality. Mostly, though, it's this action that I have fallen in love with. It is a joy to type on. And it is _quiet_. After the Model M, the quiet is so nice, so appreciated. I got tired of all the racket, of everyone always knowing when I was typing. People would point it out every now and then, in jest. It was an issue. But not any more. This board is something I really look forward to using every day. I'm amazed. I love it.

But, if I were "stuck" with either the AEK II or the Model M, I'd still be pretty happy as well, vs. the stuff that is attached to most computers these days.

Anyway, thanks again for the post.


----------



## wquiles

OK, the new Filco arrived today - I am typing this with the new one in fact 

As they promised, the new one came with a pre-paid return envelope for shipping the old one back to them. Again, great service!

Here on top if the package for the first one, new one on bottom:

















old one:






new one:






close up on new one:






The first one died after a few days of use. Lets see how long this one lasts. I will report back in a couple of days 

Will


----------



## Zelandeth

JS,

Thanks for the response there, not heard of the board you refer to, but might need to investigate it in the future.

Photo in my previous post should be back up now...gremlins decided to have a nibble at the network card in my server, so it was down for a few days while I tried to find the box with a spare in.

If you've not seen an Omnikey Ultra, worth linking to a picture I think - this is pretty much identical to mine at work save for the US layout. Capslock and control in my example are indeed where they're meant to be as in the photo below. I mean...how often to you actually *use* caps lock compared to control? Can't remember the last time I hit caps unless you count by accident!






Not a small (or light!) keyboard, weight and build quality are both on par with the Model M. Key switches are more like the AEKII than the M though, quite a lot lighter and quieter, but still clicky...just slightly less in your face clicky - a good thing as if it was as noisy as the M, my co-workers would have probably thrown it and/or me out of the window by now.

They've enough of a following it seems that much like the Model M which has been reborn, being built by a small company (whose name escapes me at the moment), the Omnikey and Omnikey Ultra have reappeared for sale as the Avant Prime and Avant Steller, made by CVT - The only downside being the price! This seems to mirror the price that used Omnikeys go for on eBay though...so I guess is how I'd price them if I was selling 'em!


----------



## tsmith35

Zelandeth said:


> I mean...how often to you actually *use* caps lock compared to control? Can't remember the last time I hit caps unless you count by accident!



Well, some people like to USE THEIR CAPS LOCK ALL THE TIME! Not me, of course... 

But I do often hit caps lock when I meant to hit tab.


----------



## turbodog

Got shipping notice for filco yesterday.


----------



## wquiles

Update: My replacement Filco keyboard has been great for over a week - simply flawless, so I just had back luck and got a bad one by chance. Good thing is that the service/support from Elite was great and it cost me nothing to get the replacement.

Now, I need to get another one for work - I am now too used to the Cherry Brown Switches. I don't mind experimenting, so Is there another keyboard vendor I should consider at all, or simply get another one like the one I just got?


----------



## Kestrel

I seem to have arrived rather late at this thread, , but I miss that old XT/AT IBM keyboard I used as an undergraduate in college - it was even 'legacy' at that time & was on the resident 386 in my office - my guess it was comparable to the Model M js described? IIRC it didn't follow me when I transitioned to laptops because it had one of those huge 5-pin DIN connectors (about the diameter of a dime), not the newer PS/2 connectors - which my laptop didn't even have at the time. Nothing I've typed on felt as nice as that old thing - which I guess is no news to anybody who's been frequenting this thread... :wave:


----------



## Josey

This search for the perfect keyboard became a thing for me. I started out with my old $70 wireless Logitech keyboard, which leaves a lot to be desired. 

Then I bought the Realforce Topre, which is incredible, but unfortunately I didn't play close enough attention to the key visibility and ended up with the near-invisible black-on-black keys.

A set of visible replacement keys costs $68 and some of the non-letter keys don't fit well, according to Elitekeyboards.com. I was going to order some anyway, but then they ran out.

So I tried the Unicomp keyboard, which is the technology that the company bought from IBM. It was the cheapest way to go: $68. When it came, I eagerly hooked it up and prepared to be thrilled by the legendary bucking-spring switches. Total yucksville. The Topre just blew it away. Not even close. 

So then I ordered the Filco with blue cherry switches. It came today. I eagerly hooked it up and prepared to be thrilled by the legendary blue cherry switches in all their tactile/clicky glory.

OK, it's a wonderful keyboard, but the topre is still quite a bit better. (The Topre blue it away, heh, heh.) The tactile/clicky features of the blue cherries add nothing for me. I type along at a steady 60 wpm, with gusts up to 100, provided I don't have to hunt for numbers for symbols. So I'm no speed champ, but I'm fast enough to have mentally moved on to future keystrokes by the time the clicks register. The clicks are not too loud, but they are not a nice sound -- a little weedy, like malnourished crickets. 

The Filco board is beautiful, don't get me wrong. It's the second-nicest board I've ever used. But the Realforce Topre is nicer. The Topre has a softer feel and is much quieter. I type faster on the Topre then I do on the Filco, and I type much faster on the Filco than I do on the bucking-spring Unicomp. And I type a bit faster on the Unicomp than I do on the Logitech.

You really have to have these boards side by side to figure out which you like. The Topre has a higher-quality feel, and the keys seem to be pitched perfectly for my fingers. Worth the extra money. But buy the keys you can see.


----------



## wquiles

Josey said:


> This search for the perfect keyboard became a thing for me. I started out with my old $70 wireless Logitech keyboard, which leaves a lot to be desired.
> 
> Then I bought the Realforce Topre, which is incredible, but unfortunately I didn't play close enough attention to the key visibility and ended up with the near-invisible black-on-black keys.
> 
> A set of visible replacement keys costs $68 and some of the non-letter keys don't fit well, according to Elitekeyboards.com. I was going to order some anyway, but then they ran out.
> 
> So I tried the Unicomp keyboard, which is the technology that the company bought from IBM. It was the cheapest way to go: $68. When it came, I eagerly hooked it up and prepared to be thrilled by the legendary bucking-spring switches. Total yucksville. The Topre just blew it away. Not even close.
> 
> So then I ordered the Filco with blue cherry switches. It came today. I eagerly hooked it up and prepared to be thrilled by the legendary blue cherry switches in all their tactile/clicky glory.
> 
> OK, it's a wonderful keyboard, but the topre is still quite a bit better. (The Topre blue it away, heh, heh.) The tactile/clicky features of the blue cherries add nothing for me. I type along at a steady 60 wpm, with gusts up to 100, provided I don't have to hunt for numbers for symbols. So I'm no speed champ, but I'm fast enough to have mentally moved on to future keystrokes by the time the clicks register. The clicks are not too loud, but they are not a nice sound -- a little weedy, like malnourished crickets.
> 
> The Filco board is beautiful, don't get me wrong. It's the second-nicest board I've ever used. But the Realforce Topre is nicer. The Topre has a softer feel and is much quieter. I type faster on the Topre then I do on the Filco, and I type much faster on the Filco than I do on the bucking-spring Unicomp. And I type a bit faster on the Unicomp than I do on the Logitech.
> 
> You really have to have these boards side by side to figure out which you like. The Topre has a higher-quality feel, and the keys seem to be pitched perfectly for my fingers. Worth the extra money. But buy the keys you can see.



As you can see two posts above, I have a Filco brown switch board - really, really nice, but for a second keyboard, your review and the feedback here all points to the same keyboard type using the Topre switches 

I guess I better save a little bit more money and order this one as soon as I can :twothumbs


----------



## Josey

wquiles said:


> As you can see two posts above, I have a Filco brown switch board - really, really nice, but for a second keyboard, your review and the feedback here all points to the same keyboard type using the Topre switches



The Filco is close enough the to the Realforce Topre that personal preference becomes the major distinction. And each board has a learning curve to find its full potential with your particular skills. 

I don't think you can tell from internet posts which you'd like better. But one thing you might want to consider is that if you are used to the Filco brown at home, you may prefer the same keyboard at work. Familiarity has value.


----------



## wquiles

Another keyboard related question: I know that the Happy Hacking Pro is the one using the Topre switches and that the older one (Happy Hacking Keyboard 2 Lite) was using a more "plain" membrane and it was much cheaper ($60-70), but how does it compare to the Pro model at close to $300? Is it night and day? Are the switches the only difference between these two?


----------



## turbodog

Filco blue arrived today. Ordered it with the red case. Looks spiffy.

Switches are LIGHT. Wow, light. Got to say I was a good bit faster on my nmb board.

Maybe I should order the black switched board.


----------



## AndrewZorn

i just traded my cherry brown filco for a cherry blue filco myself. not because i dislike brown, but i wanted to try blue, and have a second board with browns.

not that the blues are better than topre, but i havent switched back to my HHKB in 2 days now. the cherry blues are nice, if only for pure typing.

turbodog, black switches might not be the answer. they are linear and have no tactile click. if you prefer heavier switches, look into a model m (or even some Alps boards) if you have not already.

wquiles, the lite and pro should not even share the same name.
the lite is a normal membrane board just with the neat layout. in fact possibly better than the pro's, because it has dedicated arrows.
the pro is built totally different (better in every regard), has the legendary topre switches, quality keycaps, true 6 key rollover, detachable USB cable and USB hub.

the lite is like the poser version of the pro. a neat keyboard, but only similar to the Pro2 in terms of the layout.


----------



## wquiles

AndrewZorn said:


> i just traded my cherry brown filco for a cherry blue filco myself. not because i dislike brown, but i wanted to try blue, and have a second board with browns.
> 
> not that the blues are better than topre, but i havent switched back to my HHKB in 2 days now. the cherry blues are nice, if only for pure typing.
> 
> turbodog, black switches might not be the answer. they are linear and have no tactile click. if you prefer heavier switches, look into a model m (or even some Alps boards) if you have not already.
> 
> wquiles, the lite and pro should not even share the same name.
> the lite is a normal membrane board just with the neat layout. in fact possibly better than the pro's, because it has dedicated arrows.
> the pro is built totally different (better in every regard), has the legendary topre switches, quality keycaps, true 6 key rollover, detachable USB cable and USB hub.
> 
> the lite is like the poser version of the pro. a neat keyboard, but only similar to the Pro2 in terms of the layout.



Thanks on the Pro vs. Lite - I did not realize they were so different.

I like the idea of trying different keyboards, but likely not the blue cherries since I don't like noisy keyboards, and the brown cherry Filco that I have now is as loud as I would like. That is why I would love to at least try a keyboard with the Topre switches. It would be great if I can find a store in Dallas where I could try one - otherwise the only other option is to buy one and re-sell it on Ebay at a slight loss if I don't like it


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## AndrewZorn

i dont find my topre much quieter than a cherry brown. a softer noise, but about as loud. a lot of this is because i still cant avoid bottoming out on my topre, whereas i can with the browns.

the resell for a loss thing might actually not be as bad as you expect. elitekeyboards is a great place to buy, selling a barely-used one on ebay when new ones go on ebay for so much (near $300) should not be that bad. lots of international buyers too.

alternatively, you could just start off dealhunting for a used one, and sell it for more or less the same as you bought it for if you change your mind. my HHKBpro2 was $150+shipping, and a week old. ive seen 2 similar deals this week.


----------



## turbodog

In any case.... I got the red model. It's really really good looking!

Awesome color of red.

Worth the extra $.


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## wquiles

AndrewZorn said:


> alternatively, you could just start off dealhunting for a used one, and sell it for more or less the same as you bought it for if you change your mind. my HHKBpro2 was $150+shipping, and a week old. ive seen 2 similar deals this week.


Can you please help me direct to those links - that would be a great deal just to try it out 

Will


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## AndrewZorn

wquiles said:


> Can you please help me direct to those links - that would be a great deal just to try it out
> 
> Will


ebay / geekhack forums

not that you see too many people selling their HHKBs...

EDIT both the ones i referenced were sold of course, didnt mean to suggest they were current

also, funny thing with the boxes, i thought my 2 different ones was interesting, but that has now doubled to 4 unique boxes i have seen.


----------



## wquiles

AndrewZorn said:


> ebay / geekhack forums
> 
> not that you see too many people selling their HHKBs...
> 
> EDIT both the ones i referenced were sold of course, didnt mean to suggest they were current
> 
> also, funny thing with the boxes, i thought my 2 different ones was interesting, but that has now doubled to 4 unique boxes i have seen.


Thanks. I will keep looking for one of those deals 




AndrewZorn said:


> i dont find my topre much quieter than a cherry brown. a softer noise, but about as loud. a lot of this is because i still cant avoid bottoming out on my topre, whereas i can with the browns.


You know, although I am finding that I bottom less and less the more I use the cherry browns, they are almost "too light" at times. Like I still need a little bit more tactile feedback than what I get right now. Like at times it is hard to know that I "got" enough pressure to move to the next key, but by the time I get the feedback I am pretty much bottom out. I do have a dell AT101W, but I found that too hard - too much pressure. I wonder if there is perhaps something in between where it would still be light, provide good tactile feedback without being too noisy. Am I just asking for too much?

Will


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## AndrewZorn

wquiles said:


> Thanks. I will keep looking for one of those deals
> 
> 
> 
> You know, although I am finding that I bottom less and less the more I use the cherry browns, they are almost "too light" at times. Like I still need a little bit more tactile feedback than what I get right now. Like at times it is hard to know that I "got" enough pressure to move to the next key, but by the time I get the feedback I am pretty much bottom out. I do have a dell AT101W, but I found that too hard - too much pressure. I wonder if there is perhaps something in between where it would still be light, provide good tactile feedback without being too noisy. Am I just asking for too much?
> 
> Will


i was thinking cherry blue up until you got to noise.
i guess it is kind of hard physically to make something with a big bump without making it noisy.

funny, i thought my cherry brown filco was defective or something a few times at the beginning of my ownership. kept getting stuff like sssssssssssssssss when typing, thinking the key got stuck or something... but it was just the weight of my finger unknowingly knocking the key down.


----------



## wquiles

AndrewZorn said:


> i was thinking cherry blue up until you got to noise.
> i guess it is kind of hard physically to make something with a big bump without making it noisy.
> 
> funny, i thought my cherry brown filco was defective or something a few times at the beginning of my ownership. kept getting stuff like sssssssssssssssss when typing, thinking the key got stuck or something... but it was just the weight of my finger unknowingly knocking the key down.



But you know, the cherry browns are not "silent" anyway. Makes me wonder if the blues would have the tactile feedback that I am looking for with a small compromise on the sound


----------



## AndrewZorn

wquiles said:


> But you know, the cherry browns are not "silent" anyway. Makes me wonder if the blues would have the tactile feedback that I am looking for with a small compromise on the sound


geekhack.org has sound clips that are supposedly all done the same. i cant imagine they are accurate indicators, but there are different opinions of this.

blues are definitely clickier, much more sound. i guess i can summarize it as saying with browns, you hear the keys and them hitting the bottom (when you do), but with blues you are hearing the actual switches/springs more (EDIT but for accuracy, it has been noted that blues are nearly silent with nothing attached to them... so even the noise on a blue keyboard has something to do with other magical factors).

for home use, it isnt really a big problem. i thought i would mind clicky keyboards at first, but ive been eased into them. still waiting to hear stuff like alps or a model m, but the blues are not that bad.
taking it to work and forcing other people to hear you is an entirely different matter though. to be fair to the keyboard, a lot of people finds ways to make noise NOT doing work, so it isnt like you are being a complete asshole comparatively.


----------



## Josey

I can't imagine that anyone in a work environment would be bothered by the blue Cherry keys -- maybe at a library, but not likely. They are still pretty quiet. They don't make as much noise as the old electric typewriters. The level of noise is also determined in part by how hard you hit the keys. You do get a definite tactile feedback, but it seems to be more of a trait than something especially useful.

Andrew: How hard is it to adapt to the Happy Hacking keyboard with the double-duty keys?


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## AndrewZorn

Josey said:


> I can't imagine that anyone in a work environment would be bothered by the blue Cherry keys -- maybe at a library, but not likely. They are still pretty quiet. They don't make as much noise as the old electric typewriters. The level of noise is also determined in part by how hard you hit the keys. You do get a definite tactile feedback, but it seems to be more of a trait than something especially useful.
> 
> Andrew: How hard is it to adapt to the Happy Hacking keyboard with the double-duty keys?


comparing it to an electric typewriter is unfair. think of all the dells out there, and how normal they are to people. there are many, MANY stories on geekhack about them getting shut down at work for using model Ms and stuff. some even think cherry browns make too much noise.

double duty keys... do you mean the combinations and stuff? the layout is really nice overall. i wish there was a better way to remap all my OTHER keyboards i like it so much.
- ctrl is perfect
- esc is too, and i dont even use vi/emacs or anything, didnt use esc much in my life until now
- home/end/pgup/pgdn actually get used a lot now
- F keys are a little annoying, but still would rather not have them, it isnt worth the extra space.

even using autohotkey on my filco, i never reach for the arrow keys when they are there, i use the combos. some things i think could be better... like WASD or IJKL for the arrows instead of [;'/. you can make the left diamond key a function key, but i cant imagine how you would get by without it... i rarely use the right function key. the media keys work on mac, but not windows??? believe me, ive tried. only eject even sends a scancode. i dont get it at all.

yes, it is overpriced (just talking about this over at geekhack) but it has a lot of things no others do. if autohotkey and stuff were totally flawless then i could get by without it, maybe.

i should mention i havent even programmed anything since i got the board. everyone thinks they are for programmers ONLY or something. having the mouse so close to a keyboard that is CENTERED for once is very very nice... typing feels ergonomic without the mouse being too far away, or the other way around. games are nice too, not having your arms spread wide apart to get WASD and use the mouse.


----------



## mrmike

I want to thank the posters in this thread for showing me there are still real keyboards out there in the universe. 

I always liked the feel of old typewriters, and old-school clicky IBM keyboards, but then they disappeared from the world, or so it seemed as manufacturers went to mushy membranes.

I used to regularly use (and still own) a Keytronics Lifetime, which is a membrane keyboard, but a pretty good one, and the closest I could find with that solid/clicky feel to it.

A buddy of mine showed me a Dell (that a lot of gamers like), which is a full keyboard with multimedia keys, but doesn't waste a lot of desk space. I sort of liked it, and grabbed one off of Ebay. I like the multimedia keys, and have used it for a few years, but I could never get over the crappy keys for typing. I noticed when switching from the Keytronics to the Dell, that my typing became slower, and I made more mistakes. I sort of adapted to the Dell, while always knowing in the back of my head that it sucked as a keyboard.

The Logitech G series look cool, but are junk to type on. I had given up on ever finding a decent keyboard; I've known about the DAS keyboard, but heard it had some deal-breaking issues.

I got a Filco with the Cherry Browns from EliteKeyboards, and boy, it is the sturdiest keyboard I ever used. The feel of the keys is fantastic, but so far I'm making an awful lot of mistakes. I think that's because of a habit of having to bash down on the keys of membrane keyboards (a habit I'm working on breaking). 

Heh... as if I didn't spend enough money on lights, now it's keyboards


----------



## computernut

I have a couple of IBM/Lexmark Select-Ease ergonomic M15's. My favourite keyboard of all time. I have them in storage right now, I hadn't thought of using them on my Mac since they are missing the extra key to use for the Apple-Key. Should dig them out to use on my linux boxes.

Here's what one looks like: (scroll down to the M15)
http://www.dansdata.com/clicky2.htm


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## AndrewZorn

a couple of M15s, in storage? you DO know how much those are worth, right?

first time on a non-premium keyboard in months. i will be using my laptop for a couple weeks. man, it is awwwwfffuullll... as if leaving the HHKB layout isnt bad enough!


----------



## computernut

AndrewZorn said:


> a couple of M15s, in storage? you DO know how much those are worth, right?
> 
> first time on a non-premium keyboard in months. i will be using my laptop for a couple weeks. man, it is awwwwfffuullll... as if leaving the HHKB layout isnt bad enough!



I know it's terrible! They got packed away my last move and they didn't come out to play again. I should take one to work and annoy my coworkers with the clack


----------



## mwaldron

This just crossed my desk, looks nice.

Mini keyboard, fully customizable with cherry switches, a built in trackpoint and a mini usb hub. 

You get to pick if you want Brown, Blue or Red Cherries. 

http://www.guru-board.com/

They have an online configurator that lets you pick base/keycap/trackpoint colors as well. 

It also has firmware programmable layout and what look like small chords. 

If only they were shipping...or listed some MSRP numbers.


----------



## smflorkey

mwaldron said:


> Mini keyboard, fully customizable with cherry switches, a built in trackpoint and a mini usb hub.
> 
> You get to pick if you want Brown, Blue or Red Cherries.
> 
> http://www.guru-board.com/


Wow! That looks amazing. That level of quality and configurability will probably be priced out of my reach, but it surely looks good. I'll try to watch for release. Since they're targeting 2010q4 it may not hit the streets until next February, but it looks so good I'll watch and wait. Thanks for posting this link!


----------



## AvroArrow

This place just keeps emptying my wallet.  After paying the postman a nice chunk of change for taxes & fees I just received my shipment keyboards from elitekeyboards:

-2x Filco 87-key NKRO w/Blue cherries
-1x Filco 104-key NKRO w/Brown cherries
-2x Filco 22-key keypad w/Brown cherries
-2x bling lavender WASD keys w/key puller

They do some really nice packaging. All the boxes were individually wrapped in kraft paper surrounded by foam blocks. Anyway, the duplicate set is for my friend who wanted to combine our orders to save on shipping. 

I'm typing this on the 87-key blue cherry board and I really, really like it. I think I should have ordered the 87-key brown instead of the full 104-key version, but they were out of stock of the 87-key brown when I ordered a while back. The brown board is for use at work because when I was testing out the blue board at work where I got it shipped to, my co-workers were like "you better buy us earplugs if you're going to use that keyboard here." Hahaha.... 

I was originally using an old, old generic 104-key Digital (DEC, remember those guys?) keyboard that died about a year ago. I ran across a great deal on a Logitech MX5500 bluetooth keyboard & mouse set and thought, awesome... until I started typing on it. That keyboard was the lamest piece of [email protected]#[email protected]#$ that I have ever typed on. It was mushy and lacked any kind of tactile response. And I think they messed with the key size and spacing too because I kept making weird typing errors that I don't usually make. 

Anyway, that got me looking for a good keyboard. I always had a desire to get an old Model M because of fond memories typing on those. I learned to type in highschool on an IBM Selectric typewriter and took a Data Processing course the next year on IBM PS1s which had the good 'ol Model M. I never got around to buying one of those Model Ms or even a Unicomp because getting them shipped here is ridiculously expensive. So I was looking for alternatives and ran across this thread and geekhack.org around the same time. At that time elitekeyboards did not yet have the blue cherry boards yet so I picked up a Solidtek ASK-6600U (black Alps switches) locally because it was cheap (~$45) and available immediately at a local computer store. It was way better than the MX5500 keyboard and I really like the tactile feel. What I didn't like was the backward-L shaped Enter key and relocated "\" key as well as the half-sized backspace. The other sucky thing was the ringing echo when I bottomed out the keys. But it would tide me over until elitekeyboards got the blue cherry boards. I finally got around to ordering them when my friend was complaining about the super mushy & crappy Dell keyboard that came with his workstation at work and wanted a good keyboard. He initially wanted a Model M/Unicomp like me until I told him that his co-workers may not appreciate it as much as he would. 

So here I am typing on my new 87-key blue cherry Filco, with my Logitech Trackman Wheel beside it, and the 22-key Filco keypad beside that. I'm still adjusting to the arrow keys/home/insert cluster location now that I'm typing on a properly centered keyboard but I'm loving it so far. The brown cherry board is a bit mushier than I thought it would be. It doesn't feel as tactile as the blue board to me, but that may be the clicky sounds from the blue board messing with my brain. Time will tell. I thought about getting the RealForce board but I didn't like the idea of a light touch/low force board. I like some resistance and tactile feedback in my typing. 

I think my next keyboard will be another 87-key or smaller board. The ergonomics of the shorter travel from the keys to my trackball is soooo nice. Although I use the keypad a fair bit, but I can live with a separate keypad farther away because I use my trackball waaaaay more than the keypad. Too bad the Filco keypad doesn't come with blue cherries.

Oh yeah, the Guru' board mwaldron linked to... I think that's a must buy for me... depending on the price and Int'l shipping availability.


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## fisk-king

My apologis if this has been asked but in regards to Cherry MX switches does the color signify performance (i.e. blue, black, brown). 

Also, my keyboard (Microsoft Comfort Curve 2000) has suddenly startd to quack on me (have to copy and paste the lettr 'e') so I will probably purchas one from elitekeboards but have no idea which one?


Typing this was an exercise in patience.


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## AvroArrow

The Cherry MX switch color denotes their attribute. Blue=tactile & clicky sound. Brown=tactile & quiet. Black=not tactile & quiet. Quiet =/= completely silent. What I mean by tactile is that you will feel a bump after pressing down on the key (about half way down) before you bottom out the key. That bump is the switch actuating and registering the keypress. There is a FAQ on the elitekeyboards site that explains this much better.

As for which keyboard to get... that will depend on personal taste. The blue cherries (which I have) do make some noise so depending on your environment it may be annoying to others close by or when it's quiet at night. The browns are probably the best for the noise conscious and general purpose but I personally found that the "bump" wasn't quite as tactile as the blues. I actually enjoy the noise of the blues, but then again, I can only use it at home because it isn't really acceptable at my work. 

The next thing to choose is the 87 or 104 key variant. After having used the 87-key Filco for over half a year now I would not go back to a 104-key keyboard if given a choice. I can finally center the keyboard and my hands in front of me now and I don't have to reach as far to grab my trackball. I find it much more comfortable to type this way now. I also use the num pad a fair bit now and then, which is why I also bought the Filco num pad. I could have cheaped out and bought some cheap generic num pad from a computer store, but I figure since I'm ordering that much anyway, I'd stick with a matching set. 

BTW, elitekeyboards isn't the only place to get mechanical keyboards depending on which keyboard you want. If you want an 87-key keyboard, there's not a lot of choice, either the Filco or the Realforce or the even more compact Happy Hacking. If you want a standard 104-key then you've got more store choices and a wider price range. Das Keyboard makes mechanical keyboards that use Cherry MX switches. Their Model S Professional uses Cherry blues and Model S Professional Silent uses Cherry browns. Razer has also announced that they will be releasing a "gaming" keyboard called BlackWidow using Cherry blues to be released sometime this October. They didn't actually say they were using Cherry blues, but someone on geekhack found some pictures of an early review unit that showed that they were in fact using Cherry blues. The more expensive variant of the BlackWidow has blue LED backlighting if you are into that kind of thing.


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## KevinL

hmm....

For those reminiscing about the Model M, you can still use them on contemporary computers. PS/2 to USB adapters work great - even on OSX 10.6.4, not to mention Windows.

For better or for worse, I have adapted to the contemporary Apple keyboard - the aluminium, wired, numeric keypad one.


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## fisk-king

:thanks: A.Arrow.

One quick question, what is so special about the Happy Hacking keyboard to warrant the price tag. Just curious since I see more posts on the Filco in Geek"forgot name".com than the HH.


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## AvroArrow

The Happy Hacking Professional 2 (not to be confused with the Lite 2, which is vastly inferior & vastly cheaper) uses the same Topre Capacitive switches as the RealForce keyboards, hence the similar price tag (HHKBP2: $265, RF86U: $245). The HHKB is super compact because it only has 60 keys (vs 86 on the RealForce) & a 2 port USB hub. There are DIP switches to hardware remap some of the keys too (caps lock/ctrl/meta/windows/apple keys). I'm not a fan of the super compact 60-key layout so I went with 87-key Filco. Even if I were in the market for a $250 Topre switch keyboard, I'd probably get the RealForce 86-key instead of the HHKB. But this is definitely a case of YMMV and personal taste. The Topre switches are even lighter than the Cherry browns and owners on geekhack.org have said they are better than the browns, but it's still very much a personal preference thing. I didn't think they were worth double the price of the Filco brown so I stuck with the Filco. I think it's kind of like justifying a titanium McGizmo over Surefire, except the McGizmo is in fact clearly superior and worth the price premium in my opinion. Others may not agree, but hey, it's my money and it makes me happy.  I'm just not at the point where I think the RF/HHKB is worth the price premium.


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## don.gwapo

Saving to get this portable keyboard for myself. 






Rii pro mini wireless keyboard. Backlit keyboards with red laser pointer and touchpad.


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## ejot

js said:


> I started work here at Cornell's accelerator some 6 or so years ago now,


(from first post, in 2007)

Wow, js, I must have very nearly crossed paths with you as an EP undergrad at Cornell 03-07. :wave:

My old Model M is stored away now cause its so big and *LOUD* but sure is fun to type on.


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## ckthorp

I love this thread. It just keeps coming back to life again and again!


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## fisk-king

ckthorp said:


> I love this thread. It just keeps coming back to life again and again!




You are absolutely right sir :wave:.


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## Obijuan Kenobe

I don't know about links on this forum. I have seen many run afoul of the moderators for improper link protocol.

I hope I can do THIS. This guy, Datamancer, he's pretty famous for modding old IBM keyboards into some pretty wild updates. I like some of that stuff alot. But at 1500, it better be dang nice.

obi


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## primoled

always an IBM keyboard for me :naughty:


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## bitslice

KevinL said:


> hmm....
> 
> For those reminiscing about the Model M, you can still use them on contemporary computers. PS/2 to USB adapters work great - even on OSX 10.6.4, not to mention Windows.


That's good to know, thanks,
I've saved a few IBM keyboards from the skip because I love the clicky sound, it makes me feel like I'm doing some actual work.


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## fisk-king

Obijuan Kenobe said:


> I don't know about links on this forum. I have seen many run afoul of the moderators for improper link protocol.
> 
> I hope I can do THIS. This guy, Datamancer, he's pretty famous for modding old IBM keyboards into some pretty wild updates. I like some of that stuff alot. But at 1500, it better be dang nice.
> 
> obi


 
$1500 for a keyboard?! Wow, that must be one serious piece of hardware (can't pull up the website at work).


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## Obijuan Kenobe

fisk-king said:


> $1500 for a keyboard?! Wow, that must be one serious piece of hardware (can't pull up the website at work).



Check it out when you get home. His work is obviously way over the top OCD. This guy makes some really fine keyboards, always starting with these you guys love so much. 

The industrial is pretty cool. I also like the alchemist.

obi


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## AMD64Blondie

Still clicking away...4 years on.(I bought all 3 of my IBM Model M keyboards in August 2007.) Long live the Model M.

(Using rubber-dome keyboards at work sucks.)


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## wquiles

AMD64Blondie said:


> (Using rubber-dome keyboards at work sucks.)



I got lucky in that I work from home and working from home allows me to use both my Realforce (Topre) and my Filco (Brown) 

However, I also travel a lot, so it is a compromise as I then have to use the laptop while travel, which of course has terrible keyboards, compared to either the Topre and the Filco.

Will


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## wquiles

I know this is an older thread, but as an update, I wanted to offer more data on my Realforce (Topre) and my Filco (Brown switches). How that I have used them both for a long time, I really prefer the Relforce (Topre) keyboard. It is a little bit smoother/lighter, and most specially, it is quieter than the Filco (Brown switches). Not only the Realforce (Topre) intrinsically quieter, but the Realforce (Topre) gets even more quiet the more I use it since I learned to hit the keys even softer, so there is less bottoming on they keys (they are lighter than the Filco). They are not cheap, but if I were to get a new keyboard, I would save money to buy another keyboard with the Topre switches 

Will


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## js

wquiles said:


> I know this is an older thread, but as an update, I wanted to offer more data on my Realforce (Topre) and my Filco (Brown switches). How that I have used them both for a long time, I really prefer the Relforce (Topre) keyboard. It is a little bit smoother/lighter, and most specially, it is quieter than the Filco (Brown switches). Not only the Realforce (Topre) intrinsically quieter, but the Realforce (Topre) gets even more quiet the more I use it since I learned to hit the keys even softer, so there is less bottoming on they keys (they are lighter than the Filco). They are not cheap, but if I were to get a new keyboard, I would save money to buy another keyboard with the Topre switches
> 
> Will



Will,

Indeed! I've only grown to love my Topre Realforce more and more. It is, to my taste, clearly better than any other keyboard I've tried--but it DOES take a little getting used to, of course. But once you adjust to it, it is (in my experience), faster, more accurate, quieter, and easier to use than any other keyboard. I love it! If I had lots of expendable income, I'd get a tenkeyless model, as I don't often use the dedicated numeric keypad.

Anyway, thanks for the post, Will!


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## wquiles

js said:


> ... If I had lots of expendable income, I'd get a tenkeyless model, as I don't often use the dedicated numeric keypad ...



That is the Realforce model that I got - the tenkeyless, and honestly not once I have needed the "extra" part of the keyboard. And the icing on the cake is that it uses less desk space, so for me a win-win 

Will


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## js

So, I recently was very tempted to get a tenkeyless Realforce (87U) since they not only had it in white/grey, but they ALSO had it in ALL 45g key activation force. I've been thinking about it for weeks, but it was a lot of cash to drop and I wasn't sure if (or for how much) I could sell my 103U. Then, I was talking with a co-worker and she tells me that she actually uses her left hand for the mouse and keeps it to the LEFT of her keyboard, which makes a lot of sense to me. Because even a tenkeyless model has those dedicated arrow keys to the right of the main keys. Then I started thinking some more, especially about keyboard layout and what keys get used, and why I like my laptop keyboard layout so much (action isn't nearly as good as Topre, but layout I really like). I like it because my hands pretty much stay in the same damn place and that makes typing very fast. Even if I want to move the cursor, the trackpad is right nearby, and the ARROW keys are ALSO right near by, below the right hand shift key.

Re-enter the HHKB Pro 2.

So, I realize, if I'm going to take the trouble to get used to using a mouse left-handed so as to have it closer to where my hands are when typing, why not just get used to the HHKB layout, with the FN key to activate the "function" layer--arrow keys, function keys (F2, F3, etc.), CAPS LOCK, and so on? That is starting to make SO MUCH sense to me! I mean, seriously, right? The big old 101 or 103 key keyboards were made for a time when GUI's were crude or nonexistent, and when a mouse (or a touch screen!) played a much smaller role than it does now. Why not both free up a lot more desk space for your mouse, and also have a desktop keyboard which is compact enough so that your hands can _stay in more or less the same place while you type?_ Why not? I can get used to using a FN key if there is an upside! And from what I have read, most people feel that there definitely IS an upside!

So . . . once my paypal account gets some funds in it I'm going to order a HHKB Pro 2 and spend some quality time with it. I strongly suspect that I'll come to really really like it. But time will tell . . .


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## Lynx_Arc

My keytronics keyboard turned 20 last year and is still going strong. I have noticed the most used keys are rather shiny (polished looking) and none of the lettering on the keys is worn through at all. It is possible that unless computers change and require different keyboard interfacing such that I can no longer use this keyboard with my computer or I end up mostly using a non desktop computer that this keyboard could outlast me. I took a look at the HHKB keyboards and the very compact design looks interesting but has no place to keep M&Ms ready for use


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## Lite_me

I have two... Keytronic Lifetime keyboards. Guess they'll last me two lifetimes.  But one actually went out on me a few yrs ago now. My guess it was something on the membrane circuit. Got an RMA an returned it for repair. It returned looking and working like new. I'm not even sure how long I've had em. 10+ yrs fer sure. It's my favorite keyboard of all I've seen and tried.


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## ev13wt

ABTOMAT said:


> I agree with Jim, the IBM Model M and those Apple keyboards are some of the best ever. In addition to the Extended II, the orginal Extended and the IIgs shorty keyboard are excellent.
> 
> On my PC now I actually use a cheap Logitech keyboard, since I got tired of the Model M. The loud click and the hard stroke got on my nerves. The Logitech doesn't have the same quality, but I can type faster on a softer touch.



But you have to press all the way down for a key to register. How can that be faster?


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## Lynx_Arc

ev13wt said:


> But you have to press all the way down for a key to register. How can that be faster?


In some cases having to push harder can mean for slower acceleration of a keystroke thus taking more time per stroke.


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## ev13wt

Lynx_Arc said:


> In some cases having to push harder can mean for slower acceleration of a keystroke thus taking more time per stroke.



Ok, on a ibm keyb thats trying to immitate a typewriter, I agree. 

I just wanted to get him to think/google the difference between mechanical and rubber dome switches.


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## Lynx_Arc

ev13wt said:


> Ok, on a ibm keyb thats trying to immitate a typewriter, I agree.
> 
> I just wanted to get him to think/google the difference between mechanical and rubber dome switches.


I'm not sure of the difference but there could be a slight difference in speed of them also but I would say once you get past a point where the stiffness of the keys isn't slowing you down then unless you can type in excess of 100 wpm I doubt you will get but a few words a page between keyboards.


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## js

Reports from geekhack indicate that some people experience a 20WPM bump when switching to the Topre boards--but they're going from, say, 140WPM to 160WPM (or from an even higher baseline). But, the thing is that the Topre is said to be one of the only boards that has BOTH a light action AND a tactile "bump" (albeit a much smoother and more subtle one than a BS or Alps or Cherry Blue or Brown). Most people who are fairly fast typists do not bottom out the keys on boards like the Topre or Cherry MX switch based ones--not as a rule, anyway.

Anyway, I'm far from being any kind of expert on keyboards and typing, however! So add many grains of salt to the above--it's just what I've gleaned from some reading at geekhack. What I can tell you for sure is that I personally have experienced the Topre increase. I can type faster on this board than on any of the others I have tried. And I'm not a super fast typist, either. I don't actually know what my WPM count is. :thinking: I should measure that. But, in any case, my fingers definitely prefer the Topre. And I definitely like that it is both light and tactile. And I don't care that it is technically not a mechanical keyboard. This thing is beyond awesome!


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## Mr.Bishop

Anglepoise said:


> So glad its not just me.
> 
> My choice is a 1991 Honeywell-SUH
> 
> The SUH company is still making boards with their proprietory
> key action
> SITE
> 
> I don't know what I will do when it gives up the ghost.



Any chance you still know how to get one of these?


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## N8N

AvroArrow said:


> The Cherry MX switch color denotes their attribute. Blue=tactile & clicky sound. Brown=tactile & quiet. Black=not tactile & quiet. Quiet =/= completely silent. What I mean by tactile is that you will feel a bump after pressing down on the key (about half way down) before you bottom out the key. That bump is the switch actuating and registering the keypress. There is a FAQ on the elitekeyboards site that explains this much better.
> 
> As for which keyboard to get... that will depend on personal taste. The blue cherries (which I have) do make some noise so depending on your environment it may be annoying to others close by or when it's quiet at night. The browns are probably the best for the noise conscious and general purpose but I personally found that the "bump" wasn't quite as tactile as the blues. I actually enjoy the noise of the blues, but then again, I can only use it at home because it isn't really acceptable at my work.
> 
> The next thing to choose is the 87 or 104 key variant. After having used the 87-key Filco for over half a year now I would not go back to a 104-key keyboard if given a choice. I can finally center the keyboard and my hands in front of me now and I don't have to reach as far to grab my trackball. I find it much more comfortable to type this way now. I also use the num pad a fair bit now and then, which is why I also bought the Filco num pad. I could have cheaped out and bought some cheap generic num pad from a computer store, but I figure since I'm ordering that much anyway, I'd stick with a matching set.
> 
> BTW, elitekeyboards isn't the only place to get mechanical keyboards depending on which keyboard you want. If you want an 87-key keyboard, there's not a lot of choice, either the Filco or the Realforce or the even more compact Happy Hacking. If you want a standard 104-key then you've got more store choices and a wider price range. Das Keyboard makes mechanical keyboards that use Cherry MX switches. Their Model S Professional uses Cherry blues and Model S Professional Silent uses Cherry browns. Razer has also announced that they will be releasing a "gaming" keyboard called BlackWidow using Cherry blues to be released sometime this October. They didn't actually say they were using Cherry blues, but someone on geekhack found some pictures of an early review unit that showed that they were in fact using Cherry blues. The more expensive variant of the BlackWidow has blue LED backlighting if you are into that kind of thing.



I am using a Filco that I modded to Cherry Clears and added some Chinese dye sub keys because I have fingernails from hell and will destroy regular keycaps very quickly. However, at work I am using an old Silicon Graphics PS/2 board that has the Alps switches, the "bump" is much higher in the stroke than on Cherries making it easier to "float" and type quickly.

My coworkers laugh at that old dinosaur without even a Windows key, but I keep coming back to it.


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## Lynx_Arc

4 years later and my keytronics is still going and none of the letters on any keys is worn off some are shiny as a mirror though. I have a feeling unless something drastic happens this keyboard will probably outlast me.


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## AMD64Blondie

Still using my 1991 IBM Model M close to 10 years later.

(Bought them-2 1991 vintage,and 1 1995 vintage-in August 2007.)


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## Lynx_Arc

AMD64Blondie said:


> Still using my 1991 IBM Model M close to 10 years later.
> 
> (Bought them-2 1991 vintage,and 1 1995 vintage-in August 2007.)



1991 was a good year for keyboards, I'm still using my "made in USA" 1991 Keytronics keyboard.


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## kreisl

Which retail price for the IBM Model M, purchased new from a dealer\vendor, did the invoice list back then either in the late 80's or late 90's?

Given the standard cost of living and average pink-collar worker's wage at that time, afaik the retail price for that keyboard model was extremely high (as was the retail price of IBM XT\AT Home PC's duh).

Ref: http://www.clickeykeyboards.com/mod...uch-was-the-model-m-keyboard-in-1986-dollars/


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## markr6

Cool thread...but thanks a lot photobucket


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## LEDAdd1ct

A couple months ago I picked up a floss-modded IBM Model *F* "Battleship" keyboard with integrated USB converter. It was _not_ cheap. The function keys are not blocked, which is annoying, and the escape key is somewhere else. However, in terms of responsiveness and clicky feel, it is definitely more tactile than my Model *M* boards and is quite satisfying to type on. The keys still feel a little different to me, but, it is most likely a keeper. :thumbsup:


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