# Use Neutral or Hold Clutch?



## jayflash (Nov 14, 2006)

Companion to manual/auto thread.

When driving our manual transmission car I try to hold the clutch pedal in for as little time as possible. If I know I'll have to press it in for more than about 5 - 10 seconds, I'll shift into neutral beforehand. For example: when leaving our house I'll goose her in first gear and shift into neutral because there's a stop sign a half block away and I usually have to wait. When approaching a controlled intersection and I know I'll be sitting for more than 10 seconds, I scrub off whatever speed I can (depending the gear) and go to neutral rather than holding the clutch.

I'm under the impression it causes less overall wear on the system by minimizing throwout bearing/fork wear. Is this correct? 

I've also read that in some states it's illegal to drive with the tranny in neutral. If this is true is it because you may forget to put the car back into gear if emergency acceleration is necessary?


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## Diesel_Bomber (Nov 14, 2006)

The only times I'm in neutral are at long stop lights(and I'm careful to watch traffic so I can shift into gear BEFORE the light turns green) or idling in the driveway. In your situation with the stop sign half a block away I'd goose it and then let off the gas, leaving the clutch locked up and slowing down with engine braking, and only let the clutch out and use the brakes as the engine got near idle speed. I also downshift most of the time when stoping; blipping the throttle and heel-toeing as needed is automatic. I don't coast in neutral. I doubt this makes any significant difference to my throwout bearing or clutch fork, though it wears my friction disc, pressure plate, and flywheel a bit more. 

I'm not saying this is the best way, just the way I do it. It works for me and I feel most in-control of the vehicle this way. If it wears things a little more, that's just fine with me.

:buddies:


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## PlayboyJoeShmoe (Nov 14, 2006)

I don't drive many manual tranny vehicles anymore, but when I do. I use neutral at long stops.

I will go into neutral up to half a mile at some known stops around here with my Ram. But will shift back into drive just before stopping to avoid shocking the drivetrain going into gear at a dead stop. I'd be quite inclined to do much the same stuff if a drove a standard, except no need to go back into gear before stopping completely.


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## WNG (Nov 14, 2006)

Coming to an anticipated stop for a lengthy period of time, I shift into neutral and not wear the throw-out bearing more than necessary.


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## Ras_Thavas (Nov 14, 2006)

I rarely keep the vehicle in neutral. If I am slowing down I downshift through the gears and always stay in the proper gear for whatever speed I happen to be at. That way, if I need to accelerate to get out of a bad situation I don't have to find the right gear first.

At stoplights I would be in first gear, clutch depressed, ready to go. Only if I was in some kind of prolonged stop situation would I out the vehicle in neutral.

I never wore out a clutch, and have taken half a dozen manual transmission cars to over 100,000 miles.


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## jtr1962 (Nov 14, 2006)

I had a great aunt who used to hit the gas to get up to speed after leaving a green light or stop sign, then turn off the engine, hold the clutch down, and just coast to the next light or stop sign. I think she put the car in neutral when she would be coasting for a while (i.e. going downhill with the engine off) to keep her left foot from tiring holding down the clutch. The purpose of all these strategies was obviously to save gas (important during WWII) so some of them might be relevant in today's world, provided you don't need the engine running for power steering or brakes. Then again, a hydrid turns the engine off when possible with no intervention from the driver so that is ultimately a better way.


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## Lite_me (Nov 14, 2006)

I've driven manuals all my life. I'm 59. I always shift to neutral if it's going to be more that 5 sec. or so. And I don't downshift for engine braking. That's just more wear on the clutch plate unless you match engine speed with the gear ratios and that's just to much of a PITA to do all the time. It's much easier to replace brakes.
I've only had to replace one clutch in my life. But that's because I pulled too many holeshots & powershifts. That was in the 70's. :naughty:


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## jayflash (Nov 14, 2006)

Almost like Lite Me I've never replaced a clutch and I've been driving since '68...1968 for you young'uns! I don't like to use my brakes either. Tires or brakes are cheaper to replace.


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## meeshu (Nov 14, 2006)

I usually place the shift into neutral when there is a (likely) stop of 5 or more seconds. The reason being to releive stress on clutch components.

Several years ago I had to replace the clutch, even though the car was driven sensibly and had done low mileage!? And, frankly, I was highly brassed off about the clutch failing relatively early on in it's life; and the car was out of warranty period of course!!!  

My car is a Ford Falcon, 1990 model. There were other problems as well with the car, but the cars clutches reliability are highly questionable!


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## bobisculous (Nov 14, 2006)

I pretty much always leave it in gear, with the clutch depressed. Seemed to make more sense to me for whatever reason. Probably as it was the way I was brought up. 

-C


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## James S (Nov 15, 2006)

While you are correct that holding the clutch in will cause wear on the parts you mention, for a few minutes at a time it's so minimal as to be not at all worth worrying about.

I"ve driven manual transmission cars for hundred of thousands of miles on a single clutch and in stop and go traffic holding the clutch in for long periods and it just wont make any appreciable difference.

If you want to switch to neutral all the time, thats fine, but remember you're wearing down the syncro gear when you pop it back into gear prior to releasing the clutch again


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## KC2IXE (Nov 15, 2006)

WNG said:


> Coming to an anticipated stop for a lengthy period of time, I shift into neutral and not wear the throw-out bearing more than necessary.



Yep - in fact most owners manuals will tell you to do that - I was going to say "Use neutral unless you LIKE changing throw-out bearings"


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## bfg9000 (Nov 15, 2006)

In the olden days throwout bearings were a lot less robust than they are today, but there is another bearing.

You can still tell if an engine came from a manual transmission car even now when you go to tear it down, because the thrust bearing on the crankshaft shows far more wear. Stepping on the clutch pedal pushes the crank away from the clutch, and at idle oil pressure is relatively low. In some engines the thrust bearing can wear so thin that it _falls out into the oilpan_, resulting in the crank chewing into the engine block and making both unrebuildable.

While failure rates are much lower nowadays, why risk it at all?


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## koala (Nov 15, 2006)

I drive a manual. I use neutral all the time. Neutral coasting to a stop and idling. I don't like to step on the clutch for more than 5 seconds because it causes fatigue during very long traffic jams/city driving and also sometimes I drift away not realise that it is not fully depressed. The clutch not fully depressed will cause wearing slowly. I'm worried about clutch wear because I do alot of downshifting, sometime if I don't match the rpm properly the car can jerk quite violently. I think it also spoils the engine mounting and hurt the transmission? It's too addictive I can't refuse not to do it, it also reduce brake dust and wear but I know the clutch is suffering alot. Even after 12yrs of driving I am still learning.

What's a throwout bearing? What does it do?


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## PEU (Nov 15, 2006)

koala said:


> I drive a manual. I use neutral all the time. Neutral coasting to a stop and idling. I don't like to step on the clutch for more than 5 seconds



Ditto, I do the same, and I used manual cars all my driving life.


Pablo


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## bfg9000 (Nov 15, 2006)

Koala,
Normally the clutch plate (which is attached to the transmission) is clamped tightly between the pressure plate and flywheel (both attached to the engine) by powerful springs. When you step on the clutch pedal, the throwout bearing is the part that wedges apart the pressure plate and flywheel (against the springs) so the clutch plate floats in between and no longer transmits power. Everything is rotating around and riding against the bearing while it is holding things apart (essentially it pushes the crank away into its thrust bearing while pushing the pressure plate in the opposite direction). 

I believe that not matching revs when downshifting causes the majority of premature clutch failures. Many people would never start off from a stop using more than 1500rpm, yet think nothing of slowly letting the clutch out to speed up the engine. 

Let's say we're driving along in a high gear and want to slow down a lot for a very sharp corner that requires 1st. We take our time shifting and let the rpm drop down to idle while shifting, and slooowly let out the clutch so that the engine rpm smoothly rises to 5000. Congratulations, we've just caused as much clutch wear as revving to 5000 rpm and slipping the clutch away from a stop sign.

I see many people complain about only getting 30k miles from clutches (when their friend in San Francisco has never had to replace theirs), and think it's because it's so easy to slip the clutch *lots* when downshifting and not realize it.


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## nikon (Nov 15, 2006)

Driving in neutral is dangerous. It's also illegal in many areas. What happens if you're coasting along at the speed limit and a kid runs out in front of you?. If you have power steering and/or brakes, and your engine cuts out (rare, but it happens), you're going to hit the kid. I wouldn't chance it.


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## Bimmerboy (Nov 15, 2006)

Cool discussion. I do rev matching for less clutch wear, and because I like the sound of my engine... lol.

Although bearings are more robust than 20 years ago, it's still a good idea to minimize stress on the throwout bearing as they can still fail. Had one go on me 4 months after buying a used Bimmer.


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## koala (Nov 15, 2006)

Thanks, I think I should be really using my brakes than driving like a dumb driver on steroids. Luckily I am still on my first set of clutch at 53K miles.

Yes, should never cruise in neutral at highspeed what I mean is(using neutral when) coming to a stop where 2nd is too fast at engine idle rpm. Some people say that disengaging the gear disconnects the power from the car where it is missing when required in an emergency. I don't see it at all, my car is a sedan, more importantly, a fuel economy sedan, not a 3second 0-60mph rocket. No way I can accelerate hard enough to escape anything. Sorry I don't buy it. I always can shift my gear box in 0.002 second if required. 



bfg9000 said:


> Koala,
> Normally the clutch plate (which is attached to the transmission) is clamped tightly between the pressure plate and flywheel (both attached to the engine) by powerful springs. When you step on the clutch pedal, the throwout bearing is the part that wedges apart the pressure plate and flywheel (against the springs) so the clutch plate floats in between and no longer transmits power. Everything is rotating around and riding against the bearing while it is holding things apart (essentially it pushes the crank away into its thrust bearing while pushing the pressure plate in the opposite direction).
> 
> I believe that not matching revs when downshifting causes the majority of premature clutch failures. Many people would never start off from a stop using more than 1500rpm, yet think nothing of slowly letting the clutch out to speed up the engine.
> ...


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## bitslammer (Nov 15, 2006)

Neutral is safer for me but I'm usually on 2 wheels.


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## jayflash (Nov 15, 2006)

It's generally better and cheaper to use the brakes than to down shift, unless you're racing or going down an extended incline as is encountered in mountainous terrain. Slow down for the upcoming corner or whatever and then shift into 1st or 2nd gear.

Regarding Nikon's observation: pushing in the clutch during heavy braking will have the same effect as being in neutral because the RPMs will drop to idle speed anyway, won't it? I've had automatics stall in heavy braking but not properly clutched manuals. Perhaps I'm missing something I should be aware of regarding being in neutral but I'm not advocating extended coasting in neutral, anyway. I'm still curious about the "neutral" law and proper driving techniques - I can always learn something new and be a better driver.


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## stockae92 (Nov 15, 2006)

for me, it depends on how long will i stop

if its only a breif stop, i will hold the clutch

otherwise, i will shift it into neutral


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## PlayboyJoeShmoe (Nov 16, 2006)

At one of the common places I go neutral at, I start at 55 MPH. The speed limit goes down to 35 in about a half mile. I "coast" for 6/10 of a mile and it gets down to right at 35 mph when I get to the stop sign.

I'll try to make note of the distance at the other main place I do this, but I really don't see what some of you see as the problem with this?

Again I drive an automatic Ram 2500 Cummins.

Which incidently hasn't had a fillup under 20mpg in 6 times now...


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## John N (Nov 16, 2006)

jayflash said:


> I've also read that in some states it's illegal to drive with the tranny in neutral. If this is true is it because you may forget to put the car back into gear if emergency acceleration is necessary?



I get that impression as well. I've always had the impression it was for a situation where you were at a stop light and rear-ended. If you are in neutral your car is more likely to become a projectile (only brakes to prevent and you likely aren't stomping on them at a stop light). I think the idea is that is depressing the clutch, your feet would slip off and your car would stall.

Of course, either approach has it's problems in the real world.

YMMV.

-john


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## etc (Nov 16, 2006)

Interesting thread... 

You have to hold and slip the clutch in this situation. If you are on a highway on-ramp which is going up hill and there is a traffic jam. Had just that happen to me. No way to shift 1st to N and back constantly. 

I try to minimize the time I hold the clutch. I stay in N at stop lights, etc as much as I can. 

I am sometimes guilty of taking off in 2nd --- as in coming to a stoplight, too lazy to shift to 1st, hold the clutch, then move, 2nd, etc. I just stay in 2nd. and hear the engine lugging. Not a good idea.

Other point: I think I like hydrolic clutches like in bimmers more than clutches in toyotas. Not all clutches are created equal.


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## mrdwaters (Nov 16, 2006)

I came across this discussion by an "expert": Seems to by contrary to most thoughts here.

Annandale, Va.: There has been a debate happening in another chat about whether it is good for your manual transmission car if you press and hold the clutch pedal all the way down to the floor while coasting and/or idling. I've heard you say this practice is more beneficial (mechanically, not safety) than if you put the car in neutral, then release the clutch pedal. Could you please end this debate once and for all?

Pat Goss: The transmission should remain in a first gear with the clutch depressed when sitting at a light. This will add to the wear on the clutch release bearing (cheap part), but will significantly decrease wear on the transmission (expensive part). And you're wrong about safety, it is a huge safety concern. Sitting at an intersection with the transmission in neutral and the clutch pedal up requires significantly better reflexes, which most drivers don't have, to avoid a painfully long process time to consider a potential safety issue. Process the information, depress the clutch, shift the transmission into gear and release the clutch. If it's already in gear, it's only a matter of engaging the clutch to avoid the accident.

This is from a Washinton Post Online chat
*Pat Goss* has worked on cars for more than 40 years. He owns a car repair company that bears his name, has authored numerous books on auto maintenance, and makes weekly appearances on Motorweek, a PBS television program.

LINK http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...l?nav=hcmodule

I found another "expert" stating the opposite: http://www.popularmechanics.com/how_to_central/automotive/1675807.html?page=2

I wish I could find more consistent information..


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## bfg9000 (Nov 17, 2006)

It's probably one of those personal choice decisions: you can decide for yourself if the risk of failure is worth the ability to get moving more quickly.

The throwout bearing may be a "cheap part," but since it requires removal of the transmission and clutch to replace (a >$400 job on a FWD car), may as well change the clutch plate while it's out anyway whether it has worn out or not.

One of the advantages of a manual transmission is it allows the driver to tailor shifting to conditions, and they must _use their own judgement to determine what is safe_. I used to commute down a long hill with no stoplights, and every day I would *turn off the car* as I crested the hill and drive two miles in neutral without the car even being on, _because I thought it was perfectly safe to do so_. Many of those laws prohibiting coasting predate the introduction of the synchronizer, and cars of the time were near impossible to jam back into gear unless you manually matched rpm perfectly. Needless to say people who took a long time to find a gear back then and were unable to accelerate with traffic were considered rolling hazards.

A synchro's job is to match the rpm of the output and input shafts enough to allow the gears to mesh. If you are sitting at a light in neutral, the input shaft and clutch are turning at engine rpm while the output shaft is stopped. Shifting into gear requires the synchro to reduce the speed of the input shaft and clutch to near zero, causing some wear. However, it isn't too likely you'll come to a stop already in 1st gear unless in stop-and-go traffic, so you'd have to shift into 1st and cause some wear then anyway.

I don't mind holding the clutch down in traffic, but if it's going to be a long light then there's less harm in shifting to neutral.


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## greenlight (Nov 17, 2006)

I sure miss having a manual auto! My last Volvo was manual, drove like a tank. I liked to coast down hills then match the rpms before putting it back in gear. I also used to pop the stick into neutral w/o using the clutch. What a great car! I would drive around like Mario Andretti, drop into first and zoom around corners and up hills. Roll starting is always fun. And on steep hills, you can go fast!


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## jayflash (Nov 17, 2006)

If you are in 3rd or 4th gear when approaching a stop light, train crossing with guard down, school bus with red flashers on, etc. (> 5 - 10 second stop) how can it wear the syncro rings to shift into neutral? Going from a higher gear to 1st will surely induce more RPM differential than from idle to 1st. Perhaps I'm not quite up to speed regarding transmissions, so I'm remaining open minded - I could be wrong.


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## jayflash (Nov 17, 2006)

Do any of you ever utilize an occasional 2nd or (God forbid) 3rd gear "stop"?  Hey...(lack of) shift happens!


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## cobb (Nov 18, 2006)

I guess I am lucky I am only on the road at 6am, 3pm and 10 pm outside of rush hours. I seldom wait long at any light and if not the first person in line, I can go through the light in one cycle.

Since I have a diesel, I use the engine as a brake and up shift slowly releasing the clutch. I match revs when taking a ramp so I can accelerate when I get to the top or bottom as necessary. 

When I see a light is red, I just let off the gas and coast in gear to it hoping it will turn green and I can just gas and go. If it does not, I push in the clutch, put it in first and come to a stop to go again. 

I only put it in nutral if I want to reach and grab for something at a light and at a drive through. 

For long waits, like a train crossing, I just turn the engine off and put it in nutral, coasting to a stop. 

I think its a moot point, regardless if you wear the clutch or throwoutbearing, you got to remove the tranny to get to it and its just a few bolts more to replace the cluch. Infact, why not if you got it that far apart and go ahead and replace the rear engine seal and front tranny seal?


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## chevrofreak (Nov 18, 2006)

WNG said:


> Coming to an anticipated stop for a lengthy period of time, I shift into neutral and not wear the throw-out bearing more than necessary.



Me too, although I havn't driven anything with a manual transmission for a while.


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## RAF_Groundcrew (Nov 18, 2006)

FOLKS, PLEASE, why are you zooming up to speed, and putting it into neutral to coast to the stop lights??

What if there is an urgent need for speed, like a car cutting in from a side road, on your rear quarter? put your foot down, nothing happens, because you're in neutral.

When you don't use engine braking, you use more wheel braking... You will replace more brake pads than you will replace clutches in the time you have the car (if you replace your car every year, disregard the previous comment, screw the nuts off it, and let the next owner worry).


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## icecube (Nov 18, 2006)

RAF_Groundcrew said:


> FOLKS, PLEASE, why are you zooming up to speed, and putting it into neutral to coast to the stop lights??
> 
> What if there is an urgent need for speed, like a car cutting in from a side road, on your rear quarter? put your foot down, nothing happens, because you're in neutral.
> 
> When you don't use engine braking, you use more wheel braking... You will replace more brake pads than you will replace clutches in the time you have the car (if you replace your car every year, disregard the previous comment, screw the nuts off it, and let the next owner worry).



Because brake pads are easier to replace than clutches.

I coast to stops like the others. If it's a long light instersection and I just missed the light I'll turn the motor off and wait. If it's a lightly graded downhill I'll slip it into nuetral and coast. Keeps your MPG up anyway or your L/100km down.

I usually am in 5th around 35mph. Coasting to stops—do it all the time. Downshifting usually happens prior to mashing it on the freeway on-ramp (which everybody should do but don't) or I'm in for a little -making.


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## PlayboyJoeShmoe (Nov 18, 2006)

If somebody comes out of side road on my rear quarter they are gonna be in big trouble when they hit me!

Honestly that is one of the last things I worry about. I have already posted that one of my coast downs is 6/10 of a mile pretty darn flat. The other is a little better than a mile with a slight downgrade through much of it.

But then again I'm doing it with an Auto tranny, so it hasn't much to do with the subject!

But those of you who get all het up about safety must have ulsers! I try to be as safe as possible, but not to EXTREMES....


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## cobb (Nov 19, 2006)

PBJS, man, you must have a higher rpm limit for your stall speed or the aero dynamics of a brick. I know my van would quickly go from highway speed to 35 in a few seconds if I released the gas petal, then again its an automatic. My car doesnt quite do it that quickly and the grade seems to make the most impact. 

I too never understood the racing to stop lights that I encounter everyday. Its red, I want to roll through it, not jam on the brakes to a complete stop, then gas off again. 

Driving a mercedes diesel 240d with no turbo charger, I have no acceleration until you rev it up to 5 grand or so, then you are scared to death the 25 year old car with 400k miles on it my throw a rod or something. Ive found its much easier to out brake than out accelerate with this car. With my old van, the reverse was true. Nothing like winding up in an inadverted race with someone to change lanes, hit the brakes, gas it, up shift, and slow down quickly and pull in behind them.


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## PlayboyJoeShmoe (Nov 20, 2006)

Maybe I'm not being clear Cobb. I coast down to generally about 35mph. 

Coasting down to a stop would easily go over a mile.

Just letting off the accelerator it won't slow down TOO much faster than in neutral. It just feels better that way.


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