# Mag85 vs. ROP



## gothed (Oct 27, 2007)

I have been trying to find a way to modify my Mag (3D). I searched all over the forum and I only found two mods for the Mag, there have to be more?

I found the Mag85 and the ROP.

However I only found a good article describing the Mod of the ROP, I didn't find such a good tutorial for the Mag85

Is there a write up of the Mag85 mod?

What other Mag mods are there that are in this brightness range?

Mag85 vs. ROP:
1. What are the costs of a Mag85 mod vs those of an ROP (estimate)
2. What are the runtime?
3. brightness
4. throw

thanks


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## LuxLuthor (Oct 27, 2007)

gothed said:


> I have been trying to find a way to modify my Mag (3D). I searched all over the forum and I only found two mods for the Mag, there have to be more?
> 
> I found the Mag85 and the ROP.
> 
> ...



It is hard to answer all your questions, but I made this preliminary list a while ago, which I recently moved out to its own thread, and will keep adding to it. Some of your questions are hard to answer because there are many possible battery combinations that can be used, different reflectors (shape, diameter, texture coating), different levels of resistance, etc. etc.

I'm about to do some more testing in that new thread of known and new bulbs to help the community decide what choices they have.


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## BSBG (Oct 27, 2007)

6 pages of Mag85 discussion:

https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/113100


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## gothed (Oct 27, 2007)

Can you say anything about consistent output, I believe I read somewhere the the 9th battery in the Mag85 gives it a more consistent output?

thanks


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## racer7 (Oct 27, 2007)

Let me put a simpler spin on this. Your questions suggests you are fairly new to incan mods because the answers are published and generally known to folks who've built a few incan mods (my apologies in advance if I misread that). Lux and BSBG have provided you excellent references to some of this info that are great background but here are some opinions that might serve as a shortcut (I own a few of each of the mods you asked about, some made by me, some purchased). There are many dozens of things that can be done to 3D mags ranging from single LED to HID and everything in between but here is some info on the two very popular incan mods.
The 1185 generally make a better light than a ROP- the beam is usually a bit whiter and it is brighter also. It may be the "best, easy, 3D incan mod" commonly done. However, it needs a bit more work and a few more $ than a ROP because the stock mag PR2 socket has to be changed to G4 bipin for the 1185 bulb. There are two readily available ways to do the change, a "golden" adapter from FM or the KIU socket mod that takes more work but is a bit cheaper and more technically sound because it offers more heat resistance, etc. An 1185 is often run with 9 AA NiMH in series in a 9AA to 3D adapter also available from FM (do search for fivemega on this list). Personally I prefer to run it in a 3C config using AWs 3.7 protected lithiums also available through this site- its a small bit brighter and noticeably whiter at that voltage and I like the slimmer size of a 3C light, but the cells can be fit into a 3D with some spacers if you want to do those cells. (At the low cost of maglites, I'd just buy a C version if I were doing one)
A ROP runs at lower voltage often using 6 AA NiMH cells which is a waste of space in a 3D light (many would use 6 high rate NiMH AA in an adapter or maybe even 7 lower rate cells plus a dummy- these can be fit into a 2D light though the latter can be fussy needing boring for some cells). I've also done a ROP in a 6D with 6 NiMH D cells but this is more about showing size and increased runtime than making a practical light. (I changed that one to an 1111 with a Throwmaster reflector for long time and decent reach)
Unless you are doing long night search and long night walks, runtimes on both are fine. If you need much more than a half hour at one time in your size, you might want to consider LEDs or less power for a mod though LEDs provide poor definition outdoors at night compared to incans. Frequent recharges are the norm anyway, if you power with NiMH or use a lithium much. Runtimes on typical ROP and 1185 setups in 2D and 3D mags are not different enough to matter much in most uses.
You will need a metal reflector to withstand the heat- the plastic stock mag piece will simply melt if it sees more than very brief use. I recommend a FM MOP for either bulb for a smooth and very usable beam. For most uses a bit of onion peel makes a better choice reflector than a smooth spot, though if you must stretch the throw as far as possible, the spot has a slight edge. Personally, I'd just reach for a more powerful light, instead, like a quadbored 3D running the 100W 62138 bulb off 12 high rate AA cells or higher power HID, but that isn't the place to get started and neither is as good an all aound choice as an 1185, IMO. 
I'd further add that there are other bulbs I prefer to the ROP such as the 1111, 1331, 1164 also bipins. The 1111 does very nicely on a pair of AW C lithiums.
If I had to start with a 3D, I'd do the 1185. Approx Cost could be like this
Reflector $25
Bulb Adapter $15-30
Battery adapter 9AA to 3D $40
Cells $30 for good stuff- don't cheap out on cells.
Charger - variable. $10-$100 I use one that can charge Li up 6 cells in series and NiMH packs up to 12 cells in series but you could also get a less flexible, much cheaper unit. I've set mine up to plug into FM adapters as one of its several hookup methods.
Or you could just buy one of FMs chromed (3C for AW lithiums) and add batts. This is my favorite 1185 because I like the small body diameter and its good construction- but cheap it ain't - around $300. Its also possible to buy mags already fitted for 185 use (lighthound around $140 IIRC) 
FWIW and for safety reasons, I do not recommend trying to do an 1185 with any config of unprotected lithium ion cells.
If you make a choice and need specific answers to help you do a build. PMs to any of the guys who've provided info in this thread should get you what you need.
Good luck

Racer7


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## gothed (Oct 27, 2007)

wow thanks racer.

First off, where can I find a good charger, Im looking for a dual output power supply that can regulate current and voltage. Id like to keep that charger under 150.

The Mod I want: I don't want a flashlight, I want a weapon so I wouldn't be too sad if runtime drops below one hour.

I would like to use 3 D sized LiIon (USD 50)
Reflector: 25
Bulb Adaptor: 20

So this mod will be around 95 USD

but on the other hand the ROP will only be around 60 USD.

In both of these mods the beam is still fully adjustable, right?

Do you have a link that describes how to change the bulb assembly handy?

This 1185 mod you suggest will be destructive right?

How come the Mag85 is not on LuxLuthers list? or did i miss it?

thanks again


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## tebore (Oct 27, 2007)

In a 3D package I'd go with the Mag85 or look in to the Mag64/ WA1164 option.


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## gothed (Oct 27, 2007)

I think Ill go with the ROP because its easier and non destructive : )

and besides, if its in the top 15 brightest lights it probably will be stunningly bright .


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## Northern Lights (Oct 27, 2007)

There are so many to chose from. There are new mods being done with recently "discovered" bulbs. The M85 has been around a while and has many proven mods but for the same effort mods with fewer batteries and brighter output are now available.
Please search these two key words for more references in the CPF search tool:
"5761" for the phillips bulb that has found its way into many mods
"64430" an Osram bulb that is copied by other bulb makers now that produces around 3 times more light than a m85. 
There is so much interesting reading to do, and each mod actually takes about the same time, money and parts to build. The best light is the one you are happiest with! Have fun.


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## gothed (Oct 27, 2007)

Northern Lights said:


> There are so many to chose from. There are new mods being done with recently "discovered" bulbs. The M85 has been around a while and has many proven mods but for the same effort mods with fewer batteries and brighter output are now available.
> Please search these two key words for more references in the CPF search tool:
> "5761" for the phillips bulb that has found its way into many mods
> "64430" an Osram bulb that is copied by other bulb makers now that produces around 3 times more light than a m85.
> There is so much interesting reading to do, and each mod actually takes about the same time, money and parts to build. The best light is the one you are happiest with! Have fun.



I couldn't find anything for "57671"

just this thread:

https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/57671

The Osram bulb is a bipin, that requires a destructive mod, correct?

what I like about the ROP is that it is fully reversible. And a rather easy switch between high intensity lamp and a lower intensity one.

thanks for the help


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## Northern Lights (Oct 27, 2007)

gothed said:


> I couldn't find anything for "57671"
> 
> just this thread:
> 
> ...


Please read you own post, the # is 5761 not 57671 as you wrote. You scared me as that is my favorite bulb! Must be Haloween spooks and spirits twisting the keyboard.


I got over 5 pages!!


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## gothed (Oct 27, 2007)

Northern Lights said:


> Please read you own post, the # is 5761 not 57671 as you wrote. You scared me as that is my favorite bulb! Must be Haloween spooks and spirits twisting the keyboard.
> 
> 
> I got over 5 pages!!



Lol, shoot me 

thanks, ill go read


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## racer7 (Oct 28, 2007)

Gothed, you're the beneficiary of one of my very very rare nights of insomnia.

Re charger, a pretty flexible one is the Maha CH M777 at about $80. Does lithiums and NiMH packs, though you will need to make plug adapters and get a few cell holders from Radio Shack, depending on exactly what config you want to charge in. There are also lots of others -but this one does most everything except small single lithium cells and very high voltage NiMH packs that run bulbs above 100W and isn't very expensive.

Re D LiIons - exactly whose cells and from where? Protected Ds are hard to find. Unprotected lithium ion, especially in D size, are a really really bad idea from a safety standpoint especially for those without a charging station protected against fire. And the ones I've seen aren't that much of a power advantage over protected Cs. There is pretty high failure rate on the usual unprotected lithium ion cells compared to NiMH so this is not a matter to be taken lightly- not every failure leads to a blowout by any means but the potential is real. I've never flamed one but I've had about a dozen cell failures in the past year from what are probably manufacturing defects because the cells were not abused in any way or use much before failure.

The 1185 is on Lux list and is not "destructive" if you do the FM golden adapter- that goes in just like a bulb and is just as easily removed. Just be aware that the stock mag has plastic parts in the lamp tower that are vulnerable to excessive bulb heat (with ROP or 1185) so steady running might melt the tower with this setup (in which case you could just install a KIU to fix it). The KIU setup removes the plastic parts. Anyway, who cares about "destructive". I've never met anyone who built an 1185 and wanted to take it back to stock! At $15 - $20 for another, why would you waste the time and effort- mags are cheap hosts and everyone should have a box full to make a mod whenever they want! (A new platform for some presidential candidate?)

Beam is adjustable simply by turning the mag head. In practice, with a MOP you won't touch it again once initially dialed in. If you want to play with fast focus, the golden adapter from FM plus a cammed reflector is an easy way to do that and adds $5 to the reflector cost.

I am not as knowledgeable on the 5761 bulb as some but have done 3 so far using C LiIons and NiMH AA with several different reflectors. I find the beam less useful and less pleasing than the 1185 (the bulb has a wide transverse and therefore difficult to focus filament). But maybe I'm missing something because some folks sure like these things (comments from 5761 experts welcome here). This setup does not like AWs C LiIons (very borderline on triggering protection circuits and there is voltage sag, too) so is best run on NiMH IMO but the lower voltage needs mean you won't pack the tube with a full set of AA NiMHs (9 in a stock tube for an 1185 or 12 in a quadbore for 50W or 100W bulbs) if you use a 3D. That equals lost run time, of course.

There is a nicely done 1185 mod on a C body for sale on this site for $215 that has the AW softstarter that gives variable brightness but that device sucks a little or a lot of juice (the first production run) even when the light is off so really needs a lockout switch in the tailpiece to go with it or simply unscrew the tail a few turns when not in use.

Racer7


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## gothed (Oct 28, 2007)

thanks for all that info.

Why do you say I have to quad bore my mag?

http://aventrade.com/baad.html

I was looking more for a power supply then a charger, where I am in control of current and voltage.

thanks


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## Northern Lights (Oct 29, 2007)

gothed said:


> thanks for all that info.
> 
> Why do you say I have to quad bore my mag?
> 
> ...


I have used those adapters on cheap lithium 14500, they are ok but have some resistance to them. Put an rop bulb into an antique everedy.
https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/137673
Battery dimensions are not standard in the industry. Somewhere on CPF there is a thread on which batteries will fill 4x with an adapter.
The best AA cells are Powerex followed by Sanyo 2700. These are too wide to fit 4x. Cheaper less powerful cells will.
http://www.rechargeable-battery-rev...showdown-review.html#AANiMHBatteryPerformance


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## Northern Lights (Oct 29, 2007)

racer7 said:


> ...I am not as knowledgeable on the 5761 bulb as some but have done 3 so far using C LiIons and NiMH AA with several different reflectors. I find the beam less useful and less pleasing than the 1185 (the bulb has a wide transverse and therefore difficult to focus filament). But maybe I'm missing something because some folks sure like these things (comments from 5761 experts welcome here). This setup does not like AWs C LiIons (very borderline on triggering protection circuits and there is voltage sag, too) so is best run on NiMH IMO but the lower voltage needs mean you won't pack the tube with a full set of AA NiMHs (9 in a stock tube for an 1185 or 12 in a quadbore for 50W or 100W bulbs) if you use a 3D. That equals lost run time, of course....


 
I have to agree the 1185 on appropriate power sources has a very fine and white beam. If you do not put the 5761 side by side you cannot be really subjective because the outputs and the differences between them is suttle.
The 5761 has a larger hot spot with the smooth reflectors I use, I suspect if you use LOP or courser this difference will not be as apparent. The 1185 is white the 5761 more yellow in appearance. Yellow is sometimes prefered to increase contrast outdoors for greens and humid air.
The 1185 uses higher voltage so if the size of the light is critical then a 5761 works better. 2C-size 5761 are easy to build, I guess the smallest for the 1185 would be a 3C-size. In larger light bodies the run time can be compensated for by building higher AH packs for the 5761. E.g. the MagCharger can hold a 5400mAh pack of Powerex AA and run the 5761 for almost and hour and the 1185 with the same brand of batteries you get a 2700 mAh pack, 58 minutes V. 49. 
The two lights are very close in function. I personally like throw and bright lights, I measure the utility like this for me:
5761
lower voltage allows smaller lights or larger Ah packs
larger hot spot in the beam
light spectrum condusive to my environment.
Slightly more light output, more noticable when lighting up a local area infront of you
Slightly brighter, a little more throw

1185
very bright white light, optical illusion is it is brighter because things look clearer 
beam pattern clean without many arifacts
lower light temperatures
lower Amperage
medium size light bodies work best.
cannot get a very small light body of the mod

edit here.
5761 will trigger AW protection circuits if the light is built well without too much residual inherent resistance. AW dirvers or the $0.70 NTC soft start fix that problem, both allow either the 1185 or 5761 a higher run voltage than a direct drive. AW cells are at their limit with 5761 and I believe some 1185 set ups will top that style of 5761 mod. I recently built a 1185 on 3 AW cells and it really gave my AW powered 5761 a whupping! It,1185, just was too long for my most often used appliacation. More lumens can be coaxed from from the 5761 with A123, emoli or NiMh packs made with high drain batteries.
As in all mods, the key is the Vbulb, voltage to the bulb for getting the most lumens out of it.


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## cat (Dec 1, 2007)

Good thread. 
5 pages of search results, for 5761? Make it 50 pages and 50 days, if you want to cover all the related Mag mod stuff. 
@Racer7: Insomnia? Rare? I've been here - at work - since 08:30 yesterday morning and now it's 13:40. And most of that time was cpf. Not that I _can't_ sleep, just obsession, and coffee. 
Anyway. I'm waiting for my litho123 reflector to arrive so I can get my 2C 5761 done, so I'm thinking about doing another one. I've always wanted one with a 5.3 dichroic, but what I read last night - re-read - sort of put me off - it looks like it needs to be a 6D to be worthwhile. That's a bit too long. I've thought about something less powerful, that could use the stock switch and an adaptor, without another expensive AW switch (just think, I could've bought a T1 with that money) :-/ ...but that doesn't move me, I've got other lights. So maybe I should do one of the Osram 6****. I've been holding off on buying a charger in case I end up wanting to do A123 batteries.

edit: I've got 


> Results *11* - *20* of about *63* from *candlepowerforums.com* for *5761 reflector (focus OR spot)*


and I'm not finding what I want - about sorting out the focus/position of the 5761.


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## FatTony (Dec 3, 2007)

A Mag85 is a bit brighter, throws a tiny bit further and should run for twice as long as a ROP Hi (40 mins vs 20 mins on Eneloops) . ROPs are cheaper to make and have a smaller body size, but if you already have a 3D host build a Mag85.

Since building my Mag85 I rarely use my ROP.


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## cat (Dec 3, 2007)

ahh, You see - it's about _power_.  There's always more, and better. so it might cost less to just go for more power in the first place.  
...I'll be satisfied when mine make *hot*spots on steel doors, never mind burning paper. :laughing:


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## Valolammas (Dec 3, 2007)

FatTony said:


> Since building my Mag85 I rarely use my ROP.



Same here, though it may just be the new toy syndrome, since I put my Mag85 together only a couple of weeks ago. I still do like the fact that the ROP can be easily built into a more manageable 2D size.

To the OP: the Mag85 can be built with AW's three-level soft-start switch assembly. It's basically a drop-in that replaces the original switch. Adds to the cost, but requires almost no work. Plug and play. And it's quite handy to have different power levels available.


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## lctorana (Dec 3, 2007)

(I love my RoP.)

I have a 3D Maglite, and I have been toying with the following idea:

Provided I can snag a 9AA:3D high-current adaptor, I am thinking of using the *7.2V version of the RoP-high bulb *with *8 x AA *(for 10v falling to 9.6v under load), with a *1 ohm NTC *built into a handmade AA spacer.


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## tebore (Dec 3, 2007)

lctorana said:


> (I love my RoP.)
> 
> I have a 3D Maglite, and I have been toying with the following idea:
> 
> Provided I can snag a 9AA:3D high-current adaptor, I am thinking of using the *7.2V version of the RoP-high bulb *with *8 x AA *(for 10v falling to 9.6v under load), with a *1 ohm NTC *built into a handmade AA spacer.



That bulb is gonna pop faster than pop corn. 

I have a 6D ROP and it'll blow the high easy. The 7 cells is that absolute max for the high. The Low can actually take more abuse than the high.


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## LuxLuthor (Dec 3, 2007)

If someone wants to send me two ROP bulbs, I can add it to my destructive testing list, and see how their lux compares and at what voltage/amps it flashes. I'll use a Maglite bulb holder.


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## Pokerstud (Dec 4, 2007)

I'll send you a set Lux. PM incoming for your address.


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