# LED Lenser (Coast) P7 REVIEW With Beamshots/Lux/Overall Output Readings



## adirondackdestroyer (Dec 5, 2008)

***If one of the mods could move this to the Review section that would be great!***

For the longest time I thought that everything made by Coast was overpriced and of relatively low quality, especially when factoring in the price. I didn't even consider buying one until recently when I saw some positive reviews of the P7/P14. I hope this review will help improve the poor reputation that Coast seems to have on CPF. Now onto to review:

*Build:
*The Coast P7 (P7 from now on) is made out of machined aluminum. It is most likely type II anodized, so it will scratch easier than flashlights that are type III hard anodized. It has some non aggressive knurling on the middle of the body and on the tailcap, which improves the grip of the light slightly. The P7 uses a three stage forward clickie which is located on the end of the light. It also has a small hole in the tailcap so that you can attach a lanyard. It uses a 4xAAA battery carrier, that is permanently attached to the tailcap. The P7 has 24k gold contacts on the battery carrier to minimize the energy lost at the contact points.






Coast P7

*Head:
*The P7 uses an optic which can be focused down to a spot, or defocused so that there is no hotspot at all and the beam is all flood. This is the first light I've seen that has a useful focusing system. Focusing or defocusing the light is done by sliding the head back and forth. When the head is all the way down it is defocused, and when you push the head forward it focuses. My only gripe with this method is that you can accidentally focus the light if you push forward too hard on the head. I would personally prefer that the head twisted to focus/defocus the beam. There are also holes near the head of the light to help with heat sinking. These holes mean that the light is NOT dunkable! Coast claims that it is only splash proof. Inside the head of the light is a Cree Q4 bin LED.

*Size/Weight:

*The P7 is 5.5" long and weighs 6.8oz with batteries installed. 





Maglite 2AA Minimag Compared To Coast P7 

*Beam:
*The P7's beam is the most impressive I've ever seen from a flashlight! It can be focused down to a spot to give incredible throw, or defocused so that it is 100% flood. Here are some beamshots to illustrate this:





Coast P7 Spot





Coast P7 Flood

*Function:
*The P7 has a three stage forward clickie. If you press the light momentarily it turns on in boost mode, which drives the LED at 130%. Once you click the switch fully it turns on in low mode (15%). A second click turns the light to high mode (100%), and your third click turns the light off. When in either low or high mode if you press the switch it gives you boost mode momentarily. I've found this very useful when in low mode and wanting more light for a short period of time. It's not quite as useful when in high mode, because the difference in brightness isn't that much to the human eye. 

*Output:
*There has been some discussion about how my overall output numbers might be a bit high for this specific light. Because of this I removed them and will only leave the lux at 1 meter. I'll add the lux at 1 meter for low and high later on tonight. However, I'm sure that this light puts at least what the manufacturer claims on the front the package (167 lumens). 

Boost:
13,980 Lux


*Runtime:*
I personally have no way of testing this, so I can't say for sure. A member of another flashlight forum tested this light with NIMH cells and it ran for slightly over 1 hour on high. Coast rates the runtime of their lights to the point it takes for the light to completely shut off. Because of this the runtimes they list on their packaging need to be taken with a grain of salt. This is also one of the main reasons why they have received a bad reputation among flashlight collectors. 

*Pros:
*The best beam I have ever seen!!!
HUGE output for such a small light
Forward clickie 
Great user interface
Lanyard attachment 

*Cons:
*Not fully waterproof (only splash proof)
Poor regulation 

*Conclusion:
*Overall I think this is a great flashlight. The beam is a real work of art and has yet to be duplicated by any other manufacturer. The entire light has a really nice hefty feel to it, and you can tell it is not a cheap flashlight the second you pick it up. In the last year Coast has really improved the overall quality of their flashlights and should be noticed for doing so. This light might not be for everyone, but if you're looking for a pocketable high output focusing flashlight, there isn't a better light on the market.


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## MrGman (Dec 5, 2008)

I agree its a great little flashlight and has a very good adjustable beam. Better than I have seen on several other flashlights in regards to spot to flood adjust.

However, lightbox or not, I don't believe you can say it puts out 182 lumens based on your higher lux readings in the lightbox and referencing their original lumens values then calculating percentage differences, or just using your own conversion factor. It just doesn't work that way. I would just post the lux values in the standard 1 meter test at the 3 different power levels with both spot and flood focus mode and leave it at that. 

Except for posting the "lumens" readings, I think this is an otherwise very good post and the pictures of the flashlight and beamshots are very useful. G


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## HitecDrftr (Dec 5, 2008)

Impressive beam adjustments. Nice pictures. :thumbsup: Can you post some outdoor shots relative to one or more other lights?

For such a relatively expensive light ($120) I don't like their "lifetime guarantee", which does not cover normal wear and tear. I guess this means worn out switches and spent LEDS are not covered. What is the point of a lifetime guarantee then?

-Hitec-


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## phantom23 (Dec 5, 2008)

https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/214238
Last outdoor set. 'The Sun' added LL T7 (which is basically the same as P7) for comparison.

I don't want to argue, maybe it doesn't have those 182 lumens but it really is very bright, compared to my other tested (by you or someone else) flashlights it has at least 150-160 lumens. LedLenser overrates runtime but not output.

Runtime graph is in post #12. Runs more than 1 hour...


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## Gunner12 (Dec 5, 2008)

Now if only they would add good regulation(and more suitable batteries for high power LEDs) and keep the price the same.

Thanks for the Review!


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## juplin (Dec 5, 2008)

It seems that the intensity distribution in the beam pattern of Coast P7 Flood is not uniform, especially in the central region.
Can you shot a beam pattern of Coast P7 Flood on a white wall?
Thanks!


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## SureAddicted (Dec 5, 2008)

Good job adirondackdestroyer, you can never get tired from looking at them beamshots. For around $90 (AUD, thats how much they cost here) I doubt you can buy better. Having said that, I'd pick up the P14 for extra runtime. Great review. :thumbsup:


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## MonkRX (Dec 5, 2008)

*What LED?*

Sorry, for asking... but what LED does the Coast P7 use? Does it use a Cree XR-E? (I think one of the links say its a Cree XR-E Q5 bin..). I was reading through the review (ignorantly) assuming that this flashlight used a Seoul P7 , then I read the "estimated" lumen ratings and was confused about what LED was in this flashlight.


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## phantom23 (Dec 5, 2008)

*Re: What LED?*

Cree XR-E, at least Q4.


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## adirondackdestroyer (Dec 5, 2008)

MrGman said:


> I agree its a great little flashlight and has a very good adjustable beam. Better than I have seen on several other flashlights in regards to spot to flood adjust.
> 
> However, lightbox or not, I don't believe you can say it puts out 182 lumens based on your higher lux readings in the lightbox and referencing their original lumens values then calculating percentage differences, or just using your own conversion factor. It just doesn't work that way. I would just post the lux values in the standard 1 meter test at the 3 different power levels with both spot and flood focus mode and leave it at that.
> 
> Except for posting the "lumens" readings, I think this is an otherwise very good post and the pictures of the flashlight and beamshots are very useful. G



I don't know if it means anything, but I've tested two of the same lights that you have (Fenix T1,Fenix L2DQ5) and in both cases you tested them to be brighter than I did by a small margin. 
I can take the lumen readings out of the review, but I'm pretty confident that they are within a very percent either way of the true out the front lumens that you would get if you tested it in your IS. 



HitecDrftr said:


> Impressive beam adjustments. Nice pictures. :thumbsup: Can you post some outdoor shots relative to one or more other lights?
> 
> For such a relatively expensive light ($120) I don't like their "lifetime guarantee", which does not cover normal wear and tear. I guess this means worn out switches and spent LEDS are not covered. What is the point of a lifetime guarantee then?
> 
> -Hitec-



I had a 10% off coupon and paid $76 shipped from a seller on Ebay. I can try to take some outdoor beamshots tomorrow night as long as the weather permits.



phantom23 said:


> https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/214238
> Last outdoor set. 'The Sun' added LL T7 (which is basically the same as P7) for comparison.
> 
> I don't want to argue, maybe it doesn't have those 182 lumens but it really is very brught, compared to my other tested (by you or someone else) flashlights it has at least 150-160 lumens. LedLenser overrates runtime but not output.
> ...



Keep in mind the 182 lumen reading was done with rather fresh cells. I let the light run roughly 2 minutes when I took that reading.


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## adirondackdestroyer (Dec 6, 2008)

Gunner12 said:


> Now if only they would add good regulation(and more suitable batteries for high power LEDs) and keep the price the same.
> 
> Thanks for the Review!



If they added regulation and removed the holes in the head of the light, I would consider it to be nearly the perfect flashlight. 



juplin said:


> It seems that the intensity distribution in the beam pattern of Coast P7 Flood is not uniform, especially in the central region.
> Can you shot a beam pattern of Coast P7 Flood on a white wall?
> Thanks!



The beam is VERY smooth, but not 100% perfect. I'll take a white wall beamshot tonight so you can get a better look. 



SureAddicted said:


> Good job adirondackdestroyer, you can never get tired from looking at them beamshots. For around $90 (AUD, thats how much they cost here) I doubt you can buy better. Having said that, I'd pick up the P14 for extra runtime. Great review. :thumbsup:



Thanks! I'm glad you like the review. I actually had a really hard time deciding between the P7 and the P14. I think I made the right choice, but I still really want to check out the P14. Not only does it have better runtime, but also quite a bit more throw. 



MonkRX said:


> Sorry, for asking... but what LED does the Coast P7 use? Does it use a Cree XR-E? (I think one of the links say its a Cree XR-E Q5 bin..). I was reading through the review (ignorantly) assuming that this flashlight used a Seoul P7 , then I read the "estimated" lumen ratings and was confused about what LED was in this flashlight.



It uses a Cree Q4 bin. I must have forgotten to add that to my review. I'll update it now.


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## phantom23 (Dec 6, 2008)

Spot



and flood



compared to Romisen RC-N3. Not perfect indeed. P14 has nicer beam (especially 'flood').


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## Art (Dec 6, 2008)

Nice review!

Im using 1000mah Nimh on my P7 and you get nearlly 2h to 50%.. its not regulated but works great!

For throw I think its the best in its size... I actually have here(at the forum) my review with a movie..

Regards,


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## juplin (Dec 6, 2008)

I woulk like to post the beam patterns of my two focusable lens flashlights for comparison.

Unit #1 (left) is Cree P4 modded to Cree Q2_5A, Push-pull to adjust focus, powered by 3AAA, priced at $25
Unit #2 (right) is Non-branded 1W LED, twist to adjust focus, powered by 3AAA, priced at $13





All beam patterns were shot under the same conditions of 100% brightness of flashlights, WB = Daylight, EV = 0, and 1 meter to the white wall.

Control Shot -- Fenix P2D





Unit #1 Flood





Unit #1 Focus





Unit #2 Flood





Unit #2 Focus


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## adirondackdestroyer (Dec 6, 2008)

The beam on mine looks pretty much the same as Phantom's. 

The beam of your second model looks pretty sweet! The quality of both of those looks to be less than average, but you can't expect much at that price point.


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## Turbo DV8 (Dec 13, 2009)

HitecDrftr said:


> For such a relatively expensive light ($120) I don't like their "lifetime guarantee", which does not cover normal wear and tear. I guess this means worn out switches and spent LEDS are not covered. What is the point of a lifetime guarantee then?


 


> COAST guarantees its *COAST knives, tools and COAST LED Lenser Lights* to be free of defects in materials and workmanship for the life of the original purchaser. This guarantee does not cover normal wear and tear, nor damage resulting from misuse or neglect.


 
Notice Coast's Lifetime Guarantee statement is all-encompassing over a range of products, covering their knives, tools, and lights. My experience with Coast LED Lenser suggests that the "normal wear and tear" exclusion pertains to things such as dull blades on knives, tools that have lost that crisp edge, or knurling on a light that has the anodization worn off. Don't fret over your fear that Coast might hide behind the "normal wear and tear" clause if your switch or LED goes bad. I had two lower-end (Ok, crap) early-model Coast lights that both had the switches go bad. Coast replaced both lights with much nicer (and expensive) lights which had gold plated contacts, whereas the originals were not.


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## pulstar (Dec 14, 2009)

Yes, i got my (ex) LL P5 from one of the first batches... And it turned out to be very poor designed, compared to the newer series of the same model. Build quality of the newer lensers is improving with every month. (i recently bought LL P7 for my cousin's birthday-he's not a flashlight junkie, so P7 was a decent option for him, and more, here in Slovenia Led Lensers are relatively cheap (P7 was 75€, but prices of 3d MagLed varies around 40-50) (** both expensive as hell)

I compared it (before i gave it to my cousin i needed to make a small test, to see if it workslovecpf) to my LX2, and i expected that P7 will eat my LX2 in throw "district". Well, that wasn't exactly true. It throwed further, but only by a _very_ small margin. And NO side-spill. However, defocused had very wide, uniform beam with only one pretty noticable ring. Good job on that!. Build quality seemed very good to me but comapred to Surefire...well, Lenseres are type-II annodized... It was the new, 200lumen version, but still a bit dimmer than LX2 (ceiling bounce). 
If you look for a flashlight with adjustable beam, get one from LL P-series. They aren't perfect, but more than good enough for average user, who will be astonished with high output, focusable beam and good build quality.


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## SuperTrouper (Dec 14, 2009)

The beamshots of rooms lit up by the flood on a Led Lenser light always impresses me. This one is no exception, it looks like a great light when you want to be able to see a lot of the surroundings.

People on these forums scared me off from going for a Lenser though, I wish someone like Fenix made a torch with that kind of a flood, that's all hotspot in such a compact light.

Maybe with some more positive reviews from people who buy Lensers and tell us how they're getting on with them down the line they might re-assure people enough to go for them.

Thanks for the great review and the tempting beamshots!


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## pulstar (Dec 14, 2009)

Hey, don't get scared off because other people's opinions. we all have our own preferences. The only drawback i see in this light is 4xAAA configuration. If you use rechargeables(i don't see ANY problems with that, I were using one in my P5) you can't expect very high runtimes (each cell has onlly 800-1100mah capacity). If you look for all around(not EDC) light, Led lenser P14 would be much better choice. 
Led lensers are very nice light. Some say that the lack of regulation kills every interest for the light in them, but hey, if you want regulation, look elsewhere. With ni-mh the light gets pretty linear discharge curve. (semi-regulated). LL warn from using rechargeables, but i don't see any problems with that, especially if you won't use it on high for extremely long periods of time. 

Give it a try, in UK u guys have pretty decent prices for them. 
Doc from GG made some good reviews...

Sorry for my language mistakes(i'm always embarrased when i reply to a native english speaker)


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## SuperTrouper (Dec 14, 2009)

pulstar said:


> Led lenser P14 would be much better choice.
> Led lensers are very nice light.



I was actually considering a P14 because of the AA advantage. I guess seeing people saying things like; "you'll be happy with it for a few months and then want something better" along with other posts about quality concerns made me think I should perhaps go with a more mainstream/premium brand. Mind you, over here Lenser are pretty mainstream, I think our Police use them if Lenser's site is to be believed.



pulstar said:


> Sorry for my language mistakes(i'm always embarrased when i reply to a native english speaker)



Your English is a heck of a lot better than my Slovene!


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## JaguarDave-in-Oz (Dec 14, 2009)

SuperTrouper said:


> People on these forums scared me off from going for a Lenser .........
> 
> Maybe with some more positive reviews from people who buy Lensers and tell us how they're getting on with them down the line they might re-assure people enough to go for them.


Ok, here's something from "down the line".

If I had read the stuff on this forum before I'd bought my LedLenser P7 I'd have probably been scared off too. Thank god I wasn't cos I bought one over a year ago, wore it every day for a year and found it to be a wonderful, versatile light (I work outdoors mostly).

The P7 may not have appeared to be as good as a "regulated" torch when one looked at it on paper but in real world use for me it was just perfect having what I saw as decent runtime at decent brightness on the alkalines I ran it on. Its "unregulated-ness" caused me no problems at all with it running generally at the low setting set to "spot" (there was plenty of light from that) with only maybe a sixth of its time on high or "momentary turbo". Plenty of light for a plenty long time for me.

I now have "regulated" AA torches and can't see any difference in my general use on my alkalines except that I can't see as far on high and there's a more sudden jump from useable bright down to low as the batteries begin to fade whereas the LedLenser was a nice slow gradual decline that gave ages of notice. 

My P7 survived a few drops onto concrete with no stoppages. It's finish is a bit battered but it never once let me down, never even flickered and I can't say that for my current Fenixes or Nitecore. I don't take torches swimming with me so the P7's un-dunkability wasn't an issue for me and I had it out in the rain plenty of times with no problems. 

The only reason why I no longer carry it every day is that I don't get AAA's for free anymore so I wanted to move to an AA torch/es since I still get those size batteries free. Frankly, from a usage point of view I preferred my P7 over my current daily use Fenix TK20 and Nitecore D10. It's a personal thing I know, but the P7 is also still the best size torch for my hands that I've ever held. I have now retired it to my bedside table for when i need to go outside from bed in the night so it still gets a little use cos I just can't let it go altogether.

LedLEnser P7 was almost perfect for me. If it had been an AA machine then it would be my daily use torch forever.


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## DM51 (Dec 14, 2009)

I have missed this completely brfore now - a whole year has gone by. Very good to see a good and positive review of this light. Nice work!

Moving to the Reviews section.


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## BlueBeam22 (Dec 14, 2009)

Very nice review. Aside from the fact that the Husky 2D 4W generates a higher lux rating than the P7, how do they visibly compare in throw when you shine them at a target like a tree or building a few hundred feet away (P7 at tightest focus)?


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## pulstar (Dec 14, 2009)

It's in our nature that we always want to improve existing things, make them better and so on. Eventually there will be better lights even we currently own the best. 

If you always wait for something better, you miss a lot and life goes by...

As some poet said: Carpe diem:twothumbs, and get the flashlight you want. But i assure you, it won't be your last...


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## Turbo DV8 (Dec 14, 2009)

> I guess seeing people saying things like; "*you'll be happy with it for a few months and then want something better*" along with other posts about quality concerns made me think I should perhaps go with a more mainstream/premium brand.


 
Yes, the same can be said about any light bought by a flashaholic! Even the member who owned that huge arc lamp spotlight with diesel genrator on the back of a trailer sold it and "moved on," for Christ's sake! If you don't always want a "better" flashlight, perhaps you have achieved recovery and no longer need the enabling, er ... _support_ of other CPF members! 



BlueBeam22 said:


> Aside from the fact that the Husky 2D 4W generates a higher lux rating than the P7, how do they visibly compare in throw when you shine them at a target like a tree or building a few hundred feet away (P7 at tightest focus)?


 
I just bought my P7 two days ago. I haven't had a chance to tear into it yet. I have the Husky. I will let you know how they compare. I also have the Led Lenser Hokus Focus Cree (7438), similar to the P7, but rated at 105 lumens instead of 200. The Husky has a little more throw and ceiling bounce than the Hokus Focus. Therefore, the P7 should be interesting to compare. But even if the Husky has more throw, it's spot is even tighter than that which the P7/Hokus Focus delivers, and has enough green tint and rings to make an old-growth redwood tree envious. As impressive as the Husky throw is, that is it's _only_ claim to fame. Otherwise, I find mine quite unused.



> Build quality of the newer lensers is improving with every month.


 
The best thing LED Lenser has done to improve reliability was source better switches and go to gold plating on flat, redundant contacts. Huge improvement, but sad that the stigma of LL's prior quality may stay with them a good long while. When hard-earned money buys them crap, people remember that.



> Some say that the lack of regulation kills every interest for the light in them.


 
Even though LL quality is leaps and bounds better now, the lack of regulation is, as you mention, the absolute deal-killer for so many. I have regulated lights. They have their pluses and minuses. Using NiMH in your regulated light, the pluses fade away a bit. As someone mentioned, due to the incredible nature of the prism lens, even on alkalines the light is absolutely useable even as the voltage diminishes. The difference is noted upon renewal of the cells, or in the final 9/10ths of distance throw. Sometimes I sense those who dismiss a light forthright due to lack of regulation simply cannot stand to see a non-flat curve on an output chart, regardless of how that translates to real-world perception in use.

I'm all for regulation, and at the price LL continues to charge for lights now built in China, they could certainly offer it. But consider that every solder joint and component introduces more potential for failure. With that said, considering how many people dismiss LL due to lack of regulation, imagine the market that would open up to LL if they did offer regulation. They have the quality issue solved now. If they also offered regulation at prices equivalent to what they charge now, (and they could if they wanted), and especially if they dumped the AAA format in their Cree lights, then watch out lighting world, because LL would finally have totally unique lights that even the current LL poo-pooers would sit up and take notice of!


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## JaguarDave-in-Oz (Dec 14, 2009)

Turbo DV8 said:


> imagine the market that would open up to LL if they did offer regulation.


I have to say that my personal view is somewhat different (though I can only speak of what things are like in my area of Australia). Where I live, of all my friends, colleagues and family who own LED torches, none of them have ever heard of torch regulation or know of its effects (nor had I until I came here looking for info on a Fenix). None of them delve that deep into the workings of their torches. They, like me, made their decisions to buy based on price, brightness (or range), perceived feel of quality and decent runtime over an incadescent.

To someone like me, decent runtime isn't how long it takes to get to 50% brightness in one go. It's how long the torch will remain bright enough to do the jobs I need it to do when used in dribs and drabs over the course of a week or two. In my case, I found myself changing my P7's batteries every three or so weeks and that runtime was fine by me, way better than my incandescent maglite and a third of the size and perfect to carry (too big to be easily dropped or lost and small enough that it didn't interfere with my activity).

I have a fair few friends across some interesting occupations and in terms of the spectrum of user that I personally know who use LED torches, it includes law enforcement officers, people who search gaols for a living, customs officers searching ships (one of my old jobs before I retired, what fun), police rescue, farmers, mechanics, forestry commission rangers, electricians etc etc etc and plenty of ordinary people who like a torch on the shelf for when the power goes out. Most of the people I know in those roles would not know if their equipment has regulated output or not and a great many would use alkalines.

I don't know anyone in real life in Australia (as oposed to internet people in those fields I might meet here) in any of those fields who has tested the brightness of their torches by doing anything other than shining it at a tree or wall or to test range by shining down into a long paddock or street. The torch either stays bright enough to do the job at hand often enough or for long enough or it doesn't.

I'm not saying that just because I don't know them, that there aren't people out here concerned with regulation and "flat lines", just that they constitute a much smaller proportion of the buying market here than those who just want a bright, far reaching, solid looking torch. It's no acccident I'm sure, that the LedLenser torches look very much like Maglites and Maglites have a good reputation for quality in Australia so LedLenser might be helping themselves to a little ride on the back of those that paved the way to quality light.

Certainly LedLenser is gaining traction in the Australian hunting market because our largest shooting organisation (the SSAA) has taken them on board and is now selling LedLEnser P7 torches with SSAA branding on the sides. No-one has ever mentioned publicly in any of the SSAA publications whether the P7's are regulated or not.

I've gone a very long way about making a simple point but to get to the crux of what I am on about, what I'm saying is that in my experience at least, for the average "un-enlightened" buyer off the street (and I consider myself a permanent member of that group) regulation is a non event and having it would not alter LedLenser's marketing position in Australia by much because the thing holding LedLenser back in Australia is actually the price.

When I say the price is holding them back, I don't mean the price in terms of what technology you get for your money.

I mean the actual price level, about a hundred and ten aussie dollars here for P7. A hundred and ten bucks is considered an awful lot to pay for any torch, especially when one could get a 3 or 4 cell maglite for half that or can buy those little eight led 3xaaa torches at the auto place for eleven bucks. 

If the P7 price was dropped to around fifty bucks it would sell like hotcakes in Australia, regulation or no regulation. It would be even better if they could get it to run on AA's cos AAA's are more expensive out here.


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## Turbo DV8 (Dec 15, 2009)

That is a very thoughtful take on the topic. I can follow the reasoning easily and agree with essentially all of it. You did mention the steep price of LED Lenser. Please don't take the following as an insult. One angle to look at this is that LED Lenser is essentially cashing in on the ignorance of the masses, as you call them, by charging a premium price for an unregulated flashlight. I say "ignorant" because, as you said, the majority have no clue about regulation or it's benefits. It is ironic that the masses, the people most likely to use alkaline batteries, but are ignorant of regulation, are also the ones who stand to benefit the most from regulation! If your theory is correct that Coast makes unregulated lights because 99 out of 100 users wouldn't know the difference, and the masses will pay the steep price for it regardless, why should Coast add regulation? In that case, the small percentage who value regulation are being cheated out of a great light due to the ignorance of the masses. But it is not only those few who are being cheated.

You lamented the over-pricing of LED Lenser. If those unaware of regulation's benefits were enlightened, there is no way LED Lenser could continue to get away with selling unregulated lights at their prices when people see that for the same price or less, they can get a nice regulated light. Either Coast would have to step up to the new competitiveness and offer regulation in their lights, or they would have to lower their price. Period. 

Until recently, Coast manufactured it's lights in Germany. Now they are manufactured in China, the price remains as high, and there is no reason for it other than Coast's lazy greed feeding on the ignorant masses. When they shifted production to China, they could have afforded to add a simple regulation circuit and still come out ahead, in addition to winning the added business of that small percentage which values regulation, not just LED Lenser's prism optics. If the masses would never notice or care, it wouldn't matter because not only did Coast's costs decline when they shifted production to China, Coast would also be attracting new customers who have been avoiding their product over LED Lenser's refusal to include a $3 regulation circuit. But LED Lenser finds it easier to quantify that extra $3 in their pocket than to anticipate the potential benefits of attracting a new segment of the market. 

I think, in the end, LED Lenser is strangling itself with it's shortsightedness. Those who value regulation avoid LED Lenser, and many who haven't a clue about it also avoid them because they are over-priced, regardless.

I finally opened the P7 tonight and played with it, my Hokus Focus Cree, and the Husky 4 watt. I have many thoughts, and will post on them soon.


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## JaguarDave-in-Oz (Dec 15, 2009)

Turbo DV8 said:


> It is ironic that the masses, the people most likely to use alkaline batteries, but are ignorant of regulation, are also the ones who stand to benefit the most from regulation!


Without discounting anything else of what you said above, since it all sounds quite reasonable to me, I do need some help understanding the idea behind what you say in the quoted bit. 

I'm not au fait with regulation at all though I do now have some supposedly regulated torches (Fenix L1D, TK20 and Nitecore D10 R2) but I did read on here a while back that the symptom of non regulation of a LedLenser manifests itself in the fact that the torch loses brightness from the moment it's first switched on with new batteries, a process that continues on a slippery slope (as opposed to a flat horizontal line) until the battery runs out. I assume what I read was correct since that's how I would expect such a torch to behave.

My difficulty comes about when I try to understand a regualted torch's behaviour and I look in review threads at the runtime graphs for a number of AA and 2xAA regulated torches running at max on alkalines and the graphs seem to me to indicate the same symptoms, ie a long decline in brightness starting pretty much immediately the torch is first switched on, not the flat lines like most of the same torches show when run at max on NiMH etc. 

Do I read this right or am I approaching the graphs from the wrong angle? If I am reading them right then how do those differ from a P7 in operation (I've never seen a runtime graph for a P7 on alkalines, though I'd like to) and is regulation therefore something that's only seen operating fully when a torch is operated on NiMH or Lithiums?


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## HKJ (Dec 15, 2009)

JaguarDave-in-Oz said:


> My difficulty comes about when I try to understand a regualted torch's behaviour and I look in review threads at the runtime graphs for a number of AA and 2xAA regulated torches running at max on alkalines and the graphs seem to me to indicate the same symptoms, ie a long decline in brightness starting pretty much immediately the torch is first switched on, not the flat lines like most of the same torches show when run at max on NiMH etc.



Not all lights are regulated at low voltages, many 1xAA lights try to extract as much power as possible and because alkaline has a declining maximum power output, the runtime curve will look like a unregulated light.
I often plot these voltage/current/light curves to see how the regulation work.


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## StingKing (Dec 15, 2009)

Good Thread, Just letting you guys know that led lenser has just released the L7 its part of the Lightweight series of lights. Its a polycarbonate version of the P7, Runs on 3 AAA's Has 105 lumens and has the twist focus instead of the slide. Selling For $65.00 AUD,


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## Turbo DV8 (Dec 15, 2009)

StingKing said:


> Good Thread, Just letting you guys know that led lenser has just released the L7 its part of the Lightweight series of lights. Its a polycarbonate version of the P7, Runs on 3 AAA's Has 105 lumens and has the twist focus instead of the slide. Selling For $65.00 AUD,


 
At 105 lumens with twist focus, it sounds more like it is based on the Hokus Focus (7438), especially if it runs on three AAA cells.


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## Turbo DV8 (Dec 15, 2009)

JaguarDave-in-Oz said:


> Without discounting anything else of what you said above, since it all sounds quite reasonable to me, I do need some help understanding the idea behind what you say in the quoted bit.


 
First, what HKJ states is true. Not all regulation is equal. There is semi-regulated, and so forth. What I meant above was, alkalines discharge at a fairly constant downward slope, so regulation would compensate for this. For those who use NiMH, regulation is much less important, since the nature of NiMH discharge is flatter and simulates the output of a regulator. Hence, alkaline users would stand the most to benefit from regulation.


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## Turbo DV8 (Dec 15, 2009)

After paying with the P7, I did not like the included holster. I hate any holster with expansion panels. In addition to being hard to insert, if my holster has a snap or velcro lid, I do not need a death grip on the sides. In the case of the P7, every time I insert and removed the light it would defocus and focus the light. It's not the end of the world, but why induce unnecessary wear and tear every time the light is used?

Two years ago I purchased a variety of flashlight holsters from Deal Extreme, just to have around. I dug one out that I never used, and it just happens to fit the P7 perfectly, and it's dirt cheap with free shipping! Did I say cheap? I meant inexpensive, for there is nothing low quality about this holster. It is sturdier than the LED Lenser holster. It has a flap with velcro and two-position snap. A snap and velcro on the belt loop. The belt loop goes through a D-ring and is cinched back on the velcro and then snapped. Very surdy. I should stress how surprisingly sturdy the entire holsgter is, considering it is from DX. If you own a P7 and are lukewarm about the included holster, you won't regret this holster with flap. It's only $3.34, or $6.14 for two.

DX SKU #1152: 

DX SKU #1375: 

This one fits my Hokus Focus (7438) perfectly, and it's only $1.79 for one and $2.74 for two, free shipping:

SKU # 807:

SKU #1374:

*[links removed - DM51]*http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.1374


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## JaguarDave-in-Oz (Dec 15, 2009)

I still have my P7's holster on my desk after a year unused. It seems to be a very very well made holster, lovely stitching, covered edges and strong elastic. The elastic seems strong enough to me that it doesn't need the flip top to hold the torch in. Anyway, it's still there after a year cos it's far too stiff and bulky for me to use. I remember the P5 I gave as a gift had a similarly strong and seemingly oversized holster.

Personally, I'd rather see them lower the price of the torch and use a cheap holster or even make the holster an optional extra. In fact, I'd really prefer a clip.

As for focusing and defocusing the torch when putting it in, well, I found that to be a problem pretty much no matter how or where I stowed it and just had to get used to pulling the head forward just about every time I used the torch. It's nice to be able to change focus with the same hand that's holding the torch but I'd happily give up that feature as a swap for a 3/4 turn arrangement instead so that the torch would hold the focus as set no matter how it was handled.


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## Turbo DV8 (Dec 16, 2009)

JaguarDave-in-Oz said:


> As for focusing and defocusing the torch when putting it in, well, I found that to be a problem pretty much no matter how or where I stowed it and just had to get used to pulling the head forward just about every time I used the torch.


 
Of course I just had to forget to mention the best part about the DX holster, which is why I posted the information! The holster is about the same size as the LL holster, except since the sides are not elastic, the light slips in perfectly, with just enough space so the light does not lose it's focus at all, but there is no side-to-side slop. It's like the holster was made for the light! It is at least as bulky as the LL holster, though, maybe a few millimeters longer, so if you thought the LL holster was too big, you might not like it. I am on the fence about having a flap. Sometimes it's nice to have that security, and to protect the head, other times it is an annoyance. What I really don't like are holsters with no bottom end to protect the ***-end of the light. So, the second set of holsters I linked for the Hokus Focus has it's pluses and minuses. Open ended, but has a flap, wtih velcro and button tab. I guess it's all in one's preference.

What I do miss is LED Lenser's holsters which had a large, beautiful LED Lenser logo emroidered directly on the nylon. Now it is just a small, cheap piece of rubber/plastic with their logo, stitched onto the nylon. Really tacky, compared to before.


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## Turbo DV8 (Dec 17, 2009)

Sorry for the delay. So, here's my take on the P7 vs. the 7438 Hokus Focus Cree. Right off the bat, I'm going to have to get used to this two-stage switch on the P7! The low is so low, when in flood mode, I am sure I will leave it on low by accident after believing I have turned it off from high. I think I would have preferred the old style switch ... low-high-off. There's no way to avoind getting blasted with "Turbo" mode, since every press of the switch blasts you, even just to turn off from low. 

All my playing was performed with Eneloop's. The real surprise is that the P7 has no more throw than the 7438 Hokus Focus. In a ceiling bounce test, the output of the P7 is noticeably brighter than the 7438. So where does it go? The answer is that the P7 has about 50% more spill than the Hokus Focus. It is nice to have equal throw with more spill added, but one has to wonder how can two lights with the same Cree emitter and prism optic differ so greatly in ability to collimate the beam? The flood beam is as expected... the truly unique, smooth LED Lenser "wall of light!" The low truly is very low, which I find perfect in flood mode for close-up work, and even reading without obliterating night vision. The tint of the P7 is quite a bit cooler than the Hokus Focus Cree. The three Hokus Focus Cree's I have tried had very uniform tints, all a bit on the warm side. The two P7's I tried were both cooler, and had noticeably different tint between the two.

The push-pull focusing is very nice, compared to the four full turns of the head required on the 7438 Cree. But I would prefer the pre-Cree 7438 twist focusing, which only required 1/2 turn of the head to go from spot to flood. The P7 slide mechanism can experience "stiction" ... when you want to refocus only a small amount, it overcomes the stiction and jumps beyond the desired setting. It's not a huge deal, but you don't have that problem with the twisty. Furthermore, the slide focus isn't truly "one-handed" in actual use. When you hold the light in your palm in it's tactical position (thumb on switch) you still have to reach with your other hadn to slide the head. Sure, you can hold the light "Maglite" style and use your thumb/index finger to slide the head, but then you'd need to either flip the light around or use your other hand to turn the light on/off. The pre-Cree 7438, 1/2-turn twist head was the way to go, but it looks like with the newer Cree-based LL lights, they've abandoned the 1/2 turn twisty entirely, so I'd best just let it go.

One sample of P7 has a intermittent glitch in the switch. Initially, about 1 try out of 10, when in low mode if you did a half-press to get to "Turbo" mode, instead of constant Turbo mode, it would just flash once quickly then return to low. When it was acting up, if you could get it to do it once, you could get it to do it repeated times. Then suddenly it would act normal, repeatedly. Over the course of an evening's play, the problem manifest itself decreasingly, until this evening I have not been able to get it to act up once. Who knows? Maybe it has cleared itself up forever. In any case, this one will be going back, as the switch action seems rougher than the other. So much for my praising LL for it's better switches!

Someone asked to compare the P7 to the Home Depot 4 watt Husky. P7 wins in ceiling bounce, but Husky heartily wins in throw deparment. But the Husky beam is narrower than even the Hokus Focus tight beam, to the point of being almost useless. Yes, there is such a thing as too-tight a beam! Using the Husky is like trying to pick out a certain star in the sky while looking through a straw. 

I will add thoughts and omissions as they come to me.


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## BlueBeam22 (Dec 17, 2009)

Turbo DV8, thank you very much for posting about how the P7 and Husky 4W compare in throw. :thumbsup: Also, that is very interesting to hear about how the P7 does not out throw the Hokus Focus.


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## JaguarDave-in-Oz (Dec 17, 2009)

Turbo DV8 said:


> The low is so low, when in flood mode, I am sure I will leave it on low by accident after believing I have turned it off from high.


Even after a year of use I still did that, especially if I'd used the torch in daytime and I was in a hurry. Without a reflector it's a bit harder to look at the torch and see that it's on in daytime.



Turbo DV8 said:


> The P7 slide mechanism can experience "stiction" ... when you want to refocus only a small amount, it overcomes the stiction and jumps beyond the desired setting.


in my case even after a year that was not something that went away with age and daily use either. If you slide it back and forth once its then very easy to move it a small amount but if you let it sit for a while it seems to become just a tiny bit stuck at the last position. In the end I decided to view it as a bonus feautre that kept the light at the last focus setting. I also found that over time I only ever used either full spot or full flood and nothing in between so it didn't cause a problem.



Turbo DV8 said:


> One sample of P7 has a intermittent glitch in the switch. Initially, about 1 try out of 10, when in low mode if you did a half-press to get to "Turbo" mode, instead of constant Turbo mode, it would just flash once quickly then return to low. When it was acting up, if you could get it to do it once, you could get it to do it repeated times. Then suddenly it would act normal, repeatedly. Over the course of an evening's play, the problem manifest itself decreasingly, until this evening I have not been able to get it to act up once. Who knows? Maybe it has cleared itself up forever.


 I think I remember reading somewhere that this happens with P5's and the recommended fix was to fast activate the switch about a fifty times and it went away for ever, maybe it's the same with P7's. Shouldn't be necessary though on an expensive torch.


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## Turbo DV8 (Dec 18, 2009)

Uh-oh. Now I did it. I was shopping today, minding my own business, and a P14 must have just jumped into the cart with the other items when I was not looking, because when I got home, there it was!  I haven't opened it. Know any links to good P14 reviews? I'm on dial-up here, and searches are s-l-o-w since CPF went beta a few months ago, so any head-up on a good P14 review would be appreciated. Thanks.


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## JaguarDave-in-Oz (Dec 18, 2009)

I always wanted to try replacing my P7 with one of those but from what I can tell from various pics they are pretty much a short version of the P17 in size so I wouldn't be able to pocket it and I have a p17 anyway.

Here's a link to a P14 review I foudn on here.

https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/213692


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## Turbo DV8 (Dec 21, 2009)

I was playing with my P14, shining it on a wall on spot, rotating it, when I noticed the spot get slightly defocused on one side. Hmmm... I did it again. It popped into focus and slightly out as I rotated it. I shook the light, and could hear the prism reflector rattle around. I checked the head, and it was as tight as I could get it. A while later it seemed to lock into place, but later on became unlocked and rattled again. I picked up two more at Fry's. I have no reservation in tearing into multiple packages of these and returning them just as quickly, as for $80 I expect a perfect light, not a baby rattle. I have not opened the second two yet. Also, when going from flood to spot, the first one also overshot the optimum position for maximum throw, by just a small margin. It wasn't enough to detract from it's usefull throw at all, simply that the beam would noticeably enlarge just a tiny bit that last millimeter of head extension. Anyody else's P14 do this? None of the P7 did this. However, my P7's don't have as tight a spot as the 7438 Hokus Focus and the P14, so it is titilating to consider that perhaps the P7's are slightly out of whack the opposite way, meaning the heads don't move quite far enough outward, hence the relative lack of spot and more spill. But that can't be proved or disproved.

It's a shame, because I think right about the same time LED Lenser got the design and parts quality "right," they shifted production to China and may have partially negated, in poorer construction assembly, what they gained in design improvements. Two steps forward and one step back? "Designed in Germany" is only good to a certain point when the units are constructed by workers with guns pointed at their heads to meet a quota. OK, maybe that's not entirely fair these days, but you get my point. Politics may change, but work ethics and practices/habits engrained in laborer's minds don't erase overnight with the shift in political winds.

I had a chance to take the P14 and P7 out to Farwell railroad trestle in Niles Canyon last night for some fun comparisons. It seems the P14 does throw further, only due to it's tighter spot, but the increase in usefulness wasn't fully appreciated, as there was a high moisture content in the air which halted observation of throw differences beyond a certain distance. In drier air with less moisture for the beam to reflect off of, the P14 would have a clear advantage to the P7. I find the P14 fits my large-ish hand in the tactical (overhand) position better than the P7. The P7 is just a bit to small for me to grip and easily actuate the tail switch... too much of a thumb bend is required. As such, I was able to get repeated "failed" actuations of turbo mode on both P7's, which I was able to attribute to the more awkward angle the thumb must take to press the switch. The P14 switch falls right in my thumb's sweet spot for reliable actuation. 

The P14 spill on wide angle is wider than the P7. However, the brightness at that level of flood is dimmer than the P7. The P14 also has a single ring in the middle of it's beam, which is absent on the P7. It is interesting to note that when the P14's flood is tightened up a bit to bring the angle down to that of the P7, the ring disappears into the periphery. Less surprisingly, when the P14 flood is reduced a little to the same angle as the P7, it's overall brightness increased slightly to the level equivalent to the P7. It seems the P14 allows the head to be adjusted for more flood, at the reasonable expense of brightness and a ring artifact. 

Also want to note I dug up another DX holster, this time absolutely perfect for the P14. I don't know the P/N right off hand, but will post a link when I'm back on a high-speed connection and can do a search in under an hour! The holster has a Velcro lid flap, but with no snap closure. Again, dirt cheap but amazingly high quality. The selling point is, again, it is neither too big nor too small for the P14, and it slips right in with no disturbing the focus of the head.

Mention was made about the relative high price of the LL lights, and also that LL is "endorsed" (in use, anyway) by some law enforcement units in certain areas of the world. On those notes, I just want to point out that connecting any flashlight brand with use in any branch of law enforcement is a "Surefire" way to guarantee prices stay inflated, and that's all I have to say about that _..._


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## Turbo DV8 (Dec 22, 2009)

OK, the second P14 I opened had a rattling prism also, so I unscrewed the head. The prism reflector is secured in the head by a white retaining ring, similar in concept to the ring that holds the guts in a clicky tail switch. Both white rings had backed out a little bit. A quick torque with needle nose pliers cured the problem.


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## Monocrom (Dec 26, 2009)

It's good to see this company making improvements to their line. I used to own a handful of older Coast lights, and am down to just their multi-color output "Recon" model. As for the others I used to own ... Gave one away, the rest just died on me.


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## homermalou (Dec 30, 2009)

I have a Led Lenser P7 since almost one year ago, work as a security crew :naughty: (...imagination ), and I use NiMh accus, until this time, no problem with them ( as other users stated ) , and all I can say is...this flashlight is fantastic, I use the flood setting when it´s necessary in small places with a complete darkness environment, and the spot is incredible for hunting, or at least watching...bad boys running away; what more to tell you..it´s German technology ( and chinese manufacturing, I know..), just tell to anyone who don´t like this brand...give a try ¡¡ btw I also have a LD01, ITP a3 eos...I´m beginning love this flashlight´s world, cheers.


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## Monocrom (Dec 31, 2009)

homermalou said:


> I have a Led Lenser P7 since almost one year ago, work as a security crew :naughty: (...imagination ), and I use NiMh accus, until this time, no problem with them ( as other users stated ) , and all I can say is...this flashlight is fantastic ...


 
Do you notice a significant drop in output with rechargeable batteries vs. alkalines?

If seen video reviews of the P7 on youtube. It looks very nice. But I'm surprised that LED Lenser does not recommend even using NiMh cells in their lights.


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## JaguarDave-in-Oz (Dec 31, 2009)

Monocrom said:


> Do you notice a significant drop in output with rechargeable batteries vs. alkalines?
> 
> If seen video reviews of the P7 on youtube. It looks very nice. But I'm surprised that LED Lenser does not recommend even using NiMh cells in their lights.


I've been using alkalines in mine for a year (and it never suffered any of this business about being bright for a short moment and dim for a long time, in fact it was bright for a long time on alkies) and a week ago started using NiMH (cos I still can't find another torch that does its job as well as the P7 so I needed to solve the AAA alkaline availability limitation) and it's still bright as bright can be and running extremely well. There may be a marginal difference in brightness but it's not anything to notice and I use mine at longer ranges all the time so I'd have had a problem if it "dimmed" significantly.


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## Monocrom (Dec 31, 2009)

JaguarDave-in-Oz said:


> I've been using alkalines in mine for a year (and it never suffered any of this business about being bright for a short moment and dim for a long time, in fact it was bright for a long time on alkies) and a week ago started using NiMH (cos I still can't find another torch that does its job as well as the P7 so I needed to solve the AAA alkaline availability limitation) and it's still bright as bright can be and running extremely well. There may be a marginal difference in brightness but it's not anything to notice and I use mine at longer ranges all the time so I'd have had a problem if it "dimmed" significantly.


 
Thanks for letting me know your experiences with this light.


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## homermalou (Dec 31, 2009)

Monocrom said:


> Do you notice a significant drop in output with rechargeable batteries vs. alkalines?
> 
> If seen video reviews of the P7 on youtube. It looks very nice. But I'm surprised that LED Lenser does not recommend even using NiMh cells in their lights.


 
After one year using NiMh batteries, I tell you: use them, I´ve been using the P7 riding my mountain bike at night in high mode even for >40 minutes, and didn´t notice any output drop or dimming in its brightness at all, btw I used the 4 LL original packacking´s alkalines only at the first time I switched on the flashlight, and of course, as JaguarDave-in-Oz states, I did´n notice any bright dropping using NiMh instead Alkalines, the best performance without a doubt is for the accus ones, got 8 aaa eneloops only for this light ( in my job when I´m working at night can´t allow myself get into a complete darkness place ), and so as they go off, change them for the fresh ones; hope this helps.

( If you like P7 videos on youtube, wait untill have the flashlight in your hands, it´s amazing...even in low mode )

Regards from Spain.


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## LeifUK (Dec 31, 2009)

JaguarDave-in-Oz said:


> I have to say that my personal view is somewhat different (though I can only speak of what things are like in my area of Australia). Where I live, of all my friends, colleagues and family who own LED torches, none of them have ever heard of torch regulation or know of its effects (nor had I until I came here looking for info on a Fenix). None of them delve that deep into the workings of their torches. They, like me, made their decisions to buy based on price, brightness (or range), perceived feel of quality and decent runtime over an incadescent.



I had never heard of regulation until a few weeks ago, but many people who use these lights are cyclists and runners. For them it can be dangerous if the light output drops appreciably, and that is why I cancelled my order for the P7. When I discovered how deceptive the LED Lensor claims are, I felt annoyed (to put it politely). The last thing I want when in the middle of a forest is a light that gradually dims. This review made me cancel the order: 

http://translate.google.com/transla...t.php?p=504265&postcount=13&sl=de&tl=en&hl=en

I don't understand the choice of 4xAAA rather than 2xAA. That means 3200mAh versus 4200mAh using the capacity values from my Panasonic Infiniums. :huh: Or have I missed something? :thinking:

I suspect the appeal of LED Lensor is primarily that it is one of the few non junk LED lights on general sale, the other one being the LED Maglites, and people compare them to non LED lights, and go "wow".


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## JaguarDave-in-Oz (Dec 31, 2009)

LeifUK said:


> ......but many people who use these lights are cyclists and runners For them it can be dangerous if the light output drops appreciably.............


I must admit my circle of aquaintance includes very few who fit that description (definitely no runners) but out here at night I think you'd be dead right about the danger.

Cycling at night on the twisty two lane roads out here in the middle of nowhere puts one in danger of being mashed by a car at high speed so I'd have thought that using an ordinary torch instead of a dedicated cycle lighting system would be unwise (maybe that's different in the cities?).

Those few cyclists I do know personally (two of whom rode in the tour de france last year) that do ride at night have big flashing red lights on backpacks so they can be seen by cars from far away and white lights attached to the front of their bikes so they can see and I'd imagine that based on that I'd reckon you were wise to cancel the order for a hand held torch and go for something different.

But on the subject of ligtht dimming appreciably, I haven't actually had that happen on my P7, it's often dimmed a little bit in use since the quad A's just don't have the oomph of bigger batteries but I've had plenty of notice to change the batteries before it went low enough that it wasn't what one would consider "bright". 

On the other hand, for a while I did carry my Fenix L1D and its batteries went down on me one night out in the middle of the bush. The L1D went from having bright useable light to a dim moonlight mode that was too dim to walk in thick bush with and thank Dog I wasn't taking a shot with my twelve guage at the time (but I do wish you could switch to that mode intentionally with full batteries). That all happened within a matter of twenty seconds leaving me rather stranded.

Fortunately I had a backup light but if that's the normal behaviour of a regulated light then I think I'm far safer with the non-regulated behaviour of the P7.



LeifUK said:


> ......I don't understand the choice of 4xAAA rather than 2xAA.


I tend to agree but I guess it's based on the form and size of the unit. I just don't think you can get that length and thickness with two AA's and to be really honest, the sizing of the torch is actually a major point in its favour with me. That may make me sound like a down home yokel for basing my decision on looks and feel rather than technical performance but the whole thing has to be comfortable considering how much I use it as a tool, not a toy.



LeifUK said:


> ......I suspect the appeal of LED Lensor is primarily that it is one of the few non junk LED lights on general sale, the other one being the LED Maglites, and people compare them to non LED lights, and go "wow".


The appeal to me is the size, shape, strentgh and reliabilty coupled with the fact that the optic system concentrates the beam to such a point where the object target recieves a great deal more light than with a standard reflector torch putting out more overall light meaning that in my particular usage the torch works out brighter than many torches that put out more "lumens".

For me, the total light output of a torch is irrelevant, I don't use my carry torches for ambient lighting or ligthing rooms, I use them for looking at objects at a distance and when necessary, for lighting my footsteps to get to that distant object. All other uses (like looking for objects in dark sheds etc) are completely secondary and I'm happy to compromise on them.

I'm an ordinary person in need of a torch I can carry every day and night in my normal daily clothes in an open non-urban area and I'm not one who measures the performance of a light in the ways I've seen used on this forum, ceiling bounce tests do nothing to help me. All I can do is look at the beam and see how bright it is in the middle on a very distant dark wall. That's the closest test to how I use a torch in real life so perhaps I say wow when I see that concentrated beam but that's the test that's appropriate to me. 

For me it's all about the amount of light at the centre of aim and the Lenser P7 uses its optic system to do this better than most other "_ordinary person_" torches. I had maglites since the early eigthies but they were intitally were useless to me until I found the focussed bulbs for sale.

The P7's optic system on "long range" means it wastes no light on "spilling" and as such it leaves my Fenix TK20 for dead in longer range use yet if I do sometimes need to use a "spill" size beam I have it at my finger tips. but wihtout a distracting "hotspot" in its middle. That arrangeemnt suits my usage and my eyes a whole heap better than the spot and spill arrangements on all my other LED lights.

That "spill" setting is also good for dimming the light even further on the low setting (yes, I know it still puts out the same amount of light but the "spill" setting spreads it so the object in the centre gets less light) so it helps make the torch an even more multi brightness tool.

Yes, I'm happy to admit the four AAA's of the P7 is bad but now I've gone rechargeable I don't care about that anymore, I can carry plenty of spares and no longer need to worry about finding them in shops or paying the seven to eight dollars they were charging for four alkaline AAA's.


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## Turbo DV8 (Dec 31, 2009)

I have two questions about the P7/P14 switches. I've read that the first generation of three-mode switches began on low first click, then high on second click. Now they begin on high on first click, then low on second click. I really am thinking that I would prefer low first, mainly so that I don't go to click it a second time thinking it is "off" when it is actually on "low," which is truly very low. If in flood mode on low in anything under total darkness, you will not see it, and holster it in low mode and drain the batteries.

So, do the battery carriers on the P7/P14 unscrew off the switch? How to do this without breaking something? I never was tempted to try to force it. Also, I wonder if anybody has both lights with both style switch, and can confirm other than the switch order, the length and threading are identical and interchangeable. If so, perhaps I could buy an older switch from Coast or somewhere. Thanks.


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## JaguarDave-in-Oz (Dec 31, 2009)

Turbo DV8 said:


> I have two questions about the P7/P14 switches. I've read that the first generation of three-mode switches began on low first click, then high on second click. Now they begin on high on first click, then low on second click. I really am thinking that I would prefer low first, mainly so that I don't go to click it a second time thinking it is "off" when it is actually on "low," which is truly very low. If in flood mode on low in anything under total darkness, you will not see it, and holster it in low mode and drain the batteries.


I was unaware they changed. Looks like I'll have to buy a new version one and see which switch arrangement I like best.

My original version one goes "low" on the first click, "high" on the second click and in either postion one can half press for momentary "turbo". There is, due to that "momentary" arrangement, a quick preflash to "turbo" when one first switches the torch onto "low". I've always actually thought that I'd prefer to go to "high" first (although the "momentary" sort of allows it anyway) but the problem I see there is if one switches off in daytime use one could inadvertantly leave it on "low" instead thinking it had been switched off since "low" is harder to see in daylight, especially since the lack of a reflector makes the emited light less visible if one does no more than glance at the torch end. Much harder to do if one has to switch through 'high" instead.



Turbo DV8 said:


> So, do the battery carriers on the P7/P14 unscrew off the switch? How to do this without breaking something? I never was tempted to try to force it. Also, I wonder if anybody has both lights with both style switch, and can confirm other than the switch order, the length and threading are identical and interchangeable. If so, perhaps I could buy an older switch from Coast or somewhere. Thanks.


My battery carrier comes out of the metal end with the switch still attached and I think that one would have to change the whole unit if one wasn;t wanting to make actual modifications inside. 

However - I did read someone on here who has made changes to the switch wiring to make "turbo" lock on instead of "high" mode so it's highly likely you could instead make a wiring swap over to make "low" come on before "high".


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## Monocrom (Jan 1, 2010)

LeifUK said:


> I don't understand the choice of 4xAAA rather than 2xAA.


 
It costs companies less money to make a light with a 3AAA battery-carrier than it does to make a similar light running off of 2AA cells tossed down the barrel. This is why you'll often find some LED lights, at least in America, priced at only .99 cents. They're all low-quality, Made in China, and feature a 3AAA battery-carrier. Not saying that the P7 is cheap. But if LED Lenser / Coast made the same light in a 2AA format, it would cost more.

The nice thing about NiMh rechargeables in a 3AAA or 4AAA carrier is that those cells turn the light from direct drive into semi-regulated. Not sure on the technical aspect of why, but it's the nature of the batteries.


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## JaguarDave-in-Oz (Jan 1, 2010)

Monocrom said:


> It costs companies less money to make a light with a 3AAA battery-carrier than it does to make a similar light running off of 2AA cells tossed down the barrel.


that's possibly true but led lenser do make 2 AA torches and they are way cheaper (at least here in Oz) than the 4xAAA ones or the 4xAA ones so I think that's probably not the reason in this particular case. I don't like the form of the 2 x AA ones or the size of the 4xAA ones otehrswise I'd never even have considered the 4 x AAA torch.

But would it really be cheaper to make a battery carrier torch in this case when you look at all the work and intricacy that's gone into the P7's 4xAAA battery carrier with all that gold plating and switchery and screws and what nots?



Monocrom said:


> The nice thing about NiMh rechargeables in a 3AAA or 4AAA carrier is that those cells turn the light from direct drive into semi-regulated. Not sure on the technical aspect of why, but it's the nature of the batteries.


I have just recently changed to NiMH though not specifically for the advantage you state but I'll happily accept it as a collateral benefit for me. 

I had a look at the graphs inside that review link that was posted a few posts ago and I am having a real problem seeing any major difference to the basic shape of the profiles between NiMH and Alkalines (or in fact to the fenix L2D on turbo wiht NiMH). 

Sure the actual runtimes are different but the profiles are still very simlar. The Lenser on Alkies may have a bit more of an incline to the first portion before the drop off but it's in no way dramatic and does nothing to convince me that being denied regulation or NiMH is something to cut the throat over. I have to say that those graphs, which I saw for the first time today, convince me that most of the negative stuff written about the lenser's lack of regulation is just a theoretical technical irrelevance to my world. Turns out looking at those graphs that the P7's performance is no way near as bad as I was almost beginning to be brainwashed into thinking it was. No wonder I was having such a hard time correlating what was written to what i was actually seeing out the end of my torch.


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## LeifUK (Jan 1, 2010)

JaguarDave-in-Oz: They are all reasonable points that you make. I'm no torch-geek either. Regarding dimming, the eye is actually not that sensitive to changes in brightness, especially if the dimming is gradual. For walking it is probably not important, but for running it is. That is just my point of view. 

Apparently many people do use torches such as the Fenix L2D as a bike light. I can only speak for myself, but I would never go out with only one torch, either running, or on a bike, it's just too dangerous/risky. One of the great advantages of these small torches is that you can always keep a spare in a pack, or even on the handlebars. (Maybe you only need to keep spare cells in a pack, but I prefer not to swap cells at night.) 

I'm not against the LED Lensor P7, and in many respects it looks nice. But I feel I was misled by the marketing claims which make it look as if it outperforms all other similarly priced torches. I think they need to tone down the claims in order to establish more credibility. 

It would be interesting to compare the beam shots of the P7 against typical 2xAA torches in a typical outdoor situation (which is quite different from indoors).


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## Turbo DV8 (Jan 1, 2010)

LeifUK said:


> I had never heard of regulation until a few weeks ago, but many people who use these lights are cyclists and runners. For them it can be dangerous if the light output drops appreciably, and that is why I cancelled my order for the P7. The last thing I want when in the middle of a forest is a light that gradually dims... for walking it is probably not important, but for running it is.


 
LeifUK, according to your posts, you actually make a case for the absence of regulation in your application. If you had a perfectly regulated light, you would have full brightness one second, then nothing the next. It would turn off like a switch when the battery was depleted. Would you like to be running or bicycling in the dark down a rocky path, and suddenly have the light turn off? Not all regulated lights have this severe a drop-off, but some do. Also, changes in brightness that appear quite substantial in the numbers printed on the paper actually can go almost unperceived by the eye. This is compounded by the fact that it takes the eye a relatively long time to "adjust" to darkness. Likewise, as a light gets gradually dimmer, the eye is partially compensating by becoming more sensitve to the available light. In short, if I were to ever put myself in a situation where I positvely would not want to be out of light in an instant, I would choose either un unregulated light, or at least one which is poorly regulated.

I think you cancelled your P7 order prematurely, especially if you had found out what that incredibly even P7 flood looked like illuminating your path.


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## Turbo DV8 (Jan 1, 2010)

JaguarDave-in-Oz said:


> My original version one goes "low" on the first click, "high" on the second click and in either postion one can half press for momentary "turbo". There is, due to that "momentary" arrangement, a quick preflash to "turbo" when one first switches the torch onto "low". I've always actually thought that I'd prefer to go to "high" first (although the "momentary" sort of allows it anyway) but the problem I see there is if one switches off in daytime use one could inadvertantly leave it on "low" instead thinking it had been switched off since "low" is harder to see in daylight, especially since the lack of a reflector makes the emited light less visible if one does no more than glance at the torch end. Much harder to do if one has to switch through 'high" instead.


 
It's true that having that momentary burst of Turbo negates one of the advantages of low first, but it would still be better I think to have low first so you don't accidentally turn it "off," only to find later it is on low with dead cells. I think some people were just unhappy in general with their switch not having memory, or that some people don't want to have to click twice every time to get to high, but the fact is you always have Turbo mode at a soft press, and you're going to have to press twice anyway to turn it off. So, it's, "Press me twice now, or press me twice later." And LED Lenser chose "later" and now it's too easy to turn the light to low, thinking it is off. It would not be as much of an issue if either the low was higher, or there was more spill in spot mode, so it would be more noticeable. I am in no way suggesting they increase their low! I love the low. It is low enough to read by comfortably from arms length when in flood. I am sick of "multi-level" lights that don't have much spread in the levels. 



> I did read someone on here who has made changes to the switch wiring to make "turbo" lock on instead of "high" mode so it's highly likely you could instead make a wiring swap over to make "low" come on before "high


 
I have an electronics degree, so if there is enough space inside the switch and the resistor layout is such that it is ammenable to tinkering, I have a reasonable amount of faith that I can get the switch to do pretty much anything I like. I thought I remember a passing reference in that mod article you also recalled about the author simply "unscrewing the battery holder from the switch," but there were no further details. Does it entail simply grasping the holder at the base near the switch and turning? I tried mine a little but it didn't budge, and unless someone has tread there before, I am not willing to crack a $80 lights!


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## Turbo DV8 (Jan 1, 2010)

Monocrom said:


> It costs companies less money to make a light with a 3AAA battery-carrier than it does to make a similar light running off of 2AA cells tossed down the barrel. This is why you'll often find some LED lights... priced at only .99 cents. They're all low-quality, Made in China, and feature a 3AAA battery-carrier.


 
They are not cheaper _because_ they have a battery carrier. They are 99 cents because having a 3-cell carrier allows them to direct-drive the LED's without the expense of a regulator. LED Lenser has just somehow figured out :thinking: how to keep their share in the market while still utilizing direct drive! If you have ever seen the build quality of a newer LED Lenser three or four-cell carrier, the detail that goes into it, I guarantee you would see that it most certainly would not cost less to manufacture than a 2AA body that you could throw two cells down. I think it is clear that LED Lenser chose to stay with direct drive, but realized if they chose to do so, they would need a better, more reliable and much costlier carrier than the "99 cent" lights use. If LED Lenser ever pulled their head out of their anti-regulation mindset, or at least offered a simple boost circuit, they would jump in a second to change their 4AAA carrier in the P7 to a 2AA. (But then, LED Lenser doesn't seem to jump for anybody, do they? They rather march to the beat of their own drum as long as the market will bear it.)Two AA end to end would completely change the size and shape of the P7, but 2AA side-by-side in a carrier would keep it unchanged except for a few mm extra length. So, I am not sure, if LED Lenser keeps shying away from regulation or boost circuit due to cost, why are they so willing to put so much money into their carriers? A boost circuit is not that costly.


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## LeifUK (Jan 1, 2010)

Turbo DV8 said:


> LeifUK, according to your posts, you actually make a case for the absence of regulation in your application. If you had a perfectly regulated light, you would have full brightness one second, then nothing the next. It would turn off like a switch when the battery was depleted. Would you like to be running or bicycling in the dark down a rocky path, and suddenly have the light turn off? Not all regulated lights have this severe a drop-off, but some do. Also, changes in brightness that appear quite substantial in the numbers printed on the paper actually can go almost unperceived by the eye. This is compounded by the fact that it takes the eye a relatively long time to "adjust" to darkness. Likewise, as a light gets gradually dimmer, the eye is partially compensating by becoming more sensitve to the available light. In short, if I were to ever put myself in a situation where I positvely would not want to be out of light in an instant, I would choose either un unregulated light, or at least one which is poorly regulated.
> 
> I think you cancelled your P7 order prematurely, especially if you had found out what that incredibly even P7 flood looked like illuminating your path.



Yes, a sudden cut off is very bad, but a decline over 1 minute is fine, as it gives me ample warning of impending doom so to speak. The Fenix L2D has expired during a run, and I have more than enough time to whip out the backup torch. I usually recharge the cells beforehand so that it is not an issue. The problem with a gradual decline is that it is only when I trip over a protruding tree root that I realise the light is too dim for safety. I want all the battery energy to be used to produce light at the desired constant output, rather than have a large part used to generate low light levels. It kind of feels as if I am being diddled if the manufacturer says "up to 200 lumens" but within 5 minutes the output drops by 15%, and then gradually declines. 

I can get a flood with the Fenix using the flip up diffuser, but I was surprised to find that it is not good for running. It puts me inside a well lit bubble with a sudden light to dark transition not far ahead. I find that creepy, especially when listening to some ambient music on an iPod. :duh2: For me the naked Fenix beam is ideal, as it has a bright hot spot for navigation, but lots of spill so I see the area around me. I am sure that flood has its uses.


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## JaguarDave-in-Oz (Jan 1, 2010)

LeifUK said:


> It would be interesting to compare the beam shots of the P7 against typical 2xAA torches in a typical outdoor situation (which is quite different from indoors).


I have three 2 x AA torches, the Fenix TK20, the Fenix AA2 and the Fenix L1D with 2 x AA tube. I don't do cameras so there's no beam shots but I have extensively compared between them in an outside environment.

I compare them real world according to me, ie I look for objects with them at a distance and I use them to count sheep and horses roaming in my paddocks.

In terms of how far they'll light a target the Quark's maybe at best ten percent longer than the L1D-2AA but it's barely enough to notice and it's R2 compared to Q5.

My TK20 shoots an obviously much more concentrated hotspot that goes quite a distance compared to those two but my P7 still outshoots it (in terms of me being able to see a moving object with it) by at least fifty yards, the difference is very noticeable despite the fact that my particular P7's beam is nowhere near as concentrated as the TK20 so from what I can tell the P7 is longer range despite also lighting a larger area which really says something for the amount of light it puts out and maybe also shows how much the TK20 is let down by the sacrifice in light output that was made just so it could have that ugly yellow-orange beam which for my eyes makes identification of very small targets at any distance quite difficult since it tends to paint them all yellow/orange (for my eyes that torch's tint certainly does not help colour differentiation as claimed).

I guess I should also note that in my particular longer range general nightly use the P7 torch is rarely ever on for more than five minutes at a time (on high with three or four flashes to turbo) maybe two hours apart three times a night and the alkalines do tend to recover quite a bit when resting so I have never actually experienced any noticeable drop off in brightness while I am actually using the thing unless the batteries are nearly expended and it takes a fairly lonnnnnng period before it ever dims enough that I need to change batteries.

The long aspect of their performance is obviously far more relevant to my particular kind of use than to most people here, especially when copmpared to someone using their torch for running and for that sort of use (not that I'd ever run more than fifty feet at one time, I gave up ruuning except in emergencies about thirty years ago) I'd personally grab my AA2 cos it has a good wide beam spread that seems to throw an enormous amount of light into what I would call the middle distance and the P7 on high and "flood" doesn't seem to be as good at those closer ranges. In fact if I wasn't working over more than say seventy yards I'd probably opt for the AA2 altogether since it has a bunch more modes than the P7 whihc means I could also do away with carrying my Nitecore D10 in th epocket as a very close range utility torch (though the AA2's rattly batteries do annoy the crap out of me).

Incidently, one of my big complaints about the P7 was how easy it was to accidently bump the switch on when I was sliding it into the torch sleeve in my overalls etc but I yesterday (finally after a year and two months of use), managed to discover that the spring tension for the switch could be increased by turning the plastic retaining ring inside the tailcap. Now my switch is much harder to press to the click point and likely will never accidently be switched on again yet is still comfrotable to operate in use (maybe better even). All this time I put up with it when the fix was so simple, what a goose.


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## JaguarDave-in-Oz (Jan 1, 2010)

Turbo DV8 said:


> I thought I remember a passing reference in that mod article you also recalled about the author simply "unscrewing the battery holder from the switch," but there were no further details. Does it entail simply grasping the holder at the base near the switch and turning? I tried mine a little but it didn't budge, and unless someone has tread there before, I am not willing to crack a $80 lights!


I trod there tentatively for the first time only yesterday. It takes a bit of pressure at first to get it to release the o ring's grip but yes, the whole battery holder does just unscrew out of the tail cap.

As I remember, the modder had to then unscrew the phillips head screws that hold the holder al together to get access but don't take my word for that bit as what I read is just a dim memory for me.

As to your earlier comments about the level of the low, I have never really used the flood setting much (mostly cos I like to leave it alone to let the o ring sort of "sticktion" itself to the full spot position so it doesn't bump off) but last night I set her on low and flood and went out to check my cockatoos in their avaiaries and lo and behold it was low enough that they were undisturbed by the light as I shone it round their domicile. Over a year of use and I'm finding the thing more and more useable. I'm really glad I went rechargeable, it has given me the opportunity to keep this extremely versatile torch in my life. 

Last night I was even thinking about ordering up a new T7 version. They look really cool and if they really have gone up to 200 lumens from my old 170 version (though who can trust em?) then I should see brighter too........


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## JaguarDave-in-Oz (Jan 2, 2010)

Interesting thing regards regulation and dimming at the end of battery life and whether or not it might be better or worse for a runner - for the last few nights I've been spending a fair bit of time outside spotting cicadas coming out of their shells in the trees (it's summer here and grandkids love those sort of activities on holidays don't they) and I've deliberately let the batteries run down. After several nights of quite intense use on the high setting, eventually tonight the P7 started to dim. It dimmed to a level that I have been comparing to my fenix L1D with the single AA tube fitted.

The fenix torch is fitted with a fresh 2600 PowerPlus NiMH battery, the Lenser with the running down AAA 1000 ones.

Despite the dimming of the P7 I can still light up and clearly identify my sheepdog in the paddock at a range of about thirty to forty yards to what appears exactly the same extent of brightness as I can with the L1D on "medium" setting.

The P7 on NiMH has dimmed to a point way way more than a "moonlight" setting (which is what I found the L1D dimmed to the night it went dark on me and then would not come back on when I shut it off) and the thing is, my P7 has been at about this light output for at least twenty minutes now (to when I started typing this) and has only just started showing signs of dimming further. Certainly no signs of dimming with any undue or dangerous haste.

I'm now quite happy to say that there's no way the P7 will leave one stranded with a fast shutdown of light like the Fenix did to me some time back, no dange rof that at all.

EDIT - It's now been about thirty five minutes and the sheepdog's down to twenty yards. Pretty good brightness drop of rate if you ask me.


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## kts (Jan 2, 2010)

I had a Coast I used at work, it worked fine, but the plastic lens got so scratched that it looked like it was sandblasted, instead I use my Fenix L1T v2.0 :twothumbs 

No more plastic lenses for me.:thumbsdow


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## Turbo DV8 (Jan 4, 2010)

JaguarDave-in-Oz said:


> I trod there tentatively for the first time only yesterday. It takes a bit of pressure at first to get it to release the o ring's grip but yes, the whole battery holder does just unscrew out of the tail cap.


 
I am only aware of the one O-ring which seals the end cap with the body tube. Are you saying there is another one under the battery carrier, unseen? 



JaguarDave-in-Oz said:


> ...yesterday (I) managed to discover that the spring tension for the switch could be increased by turning the plastic retaining ring inside the tailcap..


 
I see no plastic ring. Is this something you found after unscreweing the battery carrier?


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## Egsise (Jan 4, 2010)

Interesting findings.
I have never been left in the dark with my Fenix TK20, the output drops from full to moon mode in 2-4 minutes, but the moon stage lasts quite nicely, enough time to find fresh batteries.
2xAA is very easy to change even in complete darkness, usually i do carry a backup torch though.
I have always liked that I can screw the tailcap open a 1/4 turn to prevent the flashlight accidentally turning on.
I like the ugly yellow tint at outdoors, the contrast is much better.

Perhaps I need to borrow my friends LL P7 and give it another try, and at least measure the output with my lightbox.


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## JaguarDave-in-Oz (Jan 4, 2010)

Turbo DV8 said:


> I am only aware of the one O-ring which seals the end cap with the body tube. Are you saying there is another one under the battery carrier, unseen?


yes, the battery carrier on mine has its own O ring since the tail cap.



Turbo DV8 said:


> I see no plastic ring. Is this something you found after unscreweing the battery carrier?


Yes, the plastic ring on mine is inside the tailcap only to be seen after removing said carrier. The ring retains the switch button and its spring.

That's on my early version, can't say for sure your later one will be the same.


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## JaguarDave-in-Oz (Jan 4, 2010)

Egsise said:


> Interesting findings.
> I have never been left in the dark with my Fenix TK20, the output drops from full to moon mode in 2-4 minutes, but the moon stage lasts quite nicely, enough time to find fresh batteries.


I've no techincal education on such matters but I think it's more than likely that a 2xaa would cope with the drop off a whole lot better than my single AA L1D did that night it went dark on me and would not turn back on. I've never actually run the TK20 down far enough to see how it manages it (in fact I dislike the way the tint looks in green/brown bush and trees so much that I haven't even managed to use up a set of batteries yet.



Egsise said:


> 2xAA is very easy to change even in complete darkness, usually I do carry a backup torch though.


I do think that the ease of changing 2 x AA is a big advantage over the 4 x AAA in a carrier. 

I actually find myself wanting double and triple check the battery orientation even in the daylight when I've reloaded my P7 which if I'm still doing it a year on means that I am not confident that's it's foolproof. I never have that lack of confidence with my 2 x AA torches. I wish the P7 was 2xAA.



Egsise said:


> I like the ugly yellow tint at outdoors, the contrast is much better.


I'm beginning to think that I must have got a really overly yellow/orange version of the TK20 cos on my one I get the opposite. 

I see not contrast but light that looks like it's been shone through a coloured lens that paints normally subtly contrasting thigns the same colour as the tint.

As a test that night I looked at some green cicadas with lightish brown stripes and it just seemed to mash their colours together like they had been dyed all over. You could still see the stripes a bit but they lost their colour contrast. It actually also made it more difficult to see where brown shell ended and green/brown cicada began. 

I made those TK20 comparisons with P7, Quark AA2 and Nitecore D10 and the three cooller torches were for my eyes so much better for picking up the cicadas in the trees against the brownish branches and identifying which species was which by colour and mottles/stripes.

I think I just got bad luck and scored an overly tinted one which is a shame cos I absolutely love the feel and form as well as the function of the TK20 torch.

One day if I get brave and learn a little of this "modding" hobby I'm going to pull the TK20 down and stick a bright white LED like an R2 in it (if it can be done) and then the thing will be what I was hoping for in the first place and might even illuminate a target as far as the P7 too. 

The Tk20 certainly has the concentrated beam for it although maybe not capable of going as far currently since that German test said the P7 made 8300 lux on high and 11000 lux on turbo and I think the Tk20 makes six or seven thousand doesn't it? Then again I think I read that lux figures are simply measured at the very centre of the hotspot and thus would not seem to take into account how concentrated the beam is at a distance would they?


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## Egsise (Jan 16, 2010)

JaguarDave-in-Oz said:


> I've never seen a runtime graph for a P7 on alkalines, though I'd like to


http://www.messerforum.net/showpost.php?p=504265&postcount=13

Picture from that thread, LL P7 compared with a Fenix L2D:


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## JaguarDave-in-Oz (Jan 16, 2010)

Thanks yeah, it satisfies me that all this business I'd read about them being bright for a very short while and dim for a very long while was rather a distortion of the facts. Looks pretty good for a triple A torch to me.

And looking at that, it turns out it's probably no surprise that my one doesn't look dimmer on NiMH, it's more than likely actually a tiny bit brighter.


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## Turbo DV8 (Jan 17, 2010)

JaguarDave-in-Oz said:


> It satisfies me that all this business I'd read about them being _bright for a very short while and dim for a very long while_ was rather a distortion of the facts.


 
Yeah, that would not be a fair description at all, although I do have to admit, that green alakaline curve is pretty doggone ugly! Drops like a rock for 5-10 minutes, then a steady, downhill slope... 70 minutes to 50%. If he had also run a graph of the L2D on alkalines, that would have given a good comparison of what exactly good regulation can do (although for the slopes to be fair, the scale of the AAA P7 would have had to be expanded to compensate for the reduced capacity versus AA.)


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## JaguarDave-in-Oz (Jan 17, 2010)

It's funny how inappropriate some of these graphs can be when it comes to using them for judging which torches perform best at long range use. Not all that many weeks ago when i thought that lumens were the rigth thing to go by, I'd look at that graph and say "wow, I gotta get me an L2D to replace my P7, it's gunna outshine it by heaps". Well actually quite a long while back I did get a L2D (well a L1D with 2AA tube) and those graphs might work for indoor, round the garden and walking the dog use use but in my paddock my P7 can see more than twice as far as my L2D despite appearing on th egraph to have heaps more grunt.

Of course I'm now a little better educated and know these graphs tell only part of the story. I now know that beam shape is critical too (in my case much more critical).

By the way, I've been out there testing again and the P7 eats my new Turbo AA2 Quark for long range work too. I wasn't really expecting the difference between them to be as great as it is. IN terms of lighting a target the P7 really does well for a 4 x AAA torch against such 2 x AA company.


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## Egsise (Jan 17, 2010)

JaguarDave-in-Oz said:


> It's funny how inappropriate some of these graphs can be when it comes to using them for judging which torches perform best at long range use. Not all that many weeks ago when i thought that lumens were the rigth thing to go by, I'd look at that graph and say "wow, I gotta get me an L2D to replace my P7, it's gunna outshine it by heaps". Well actually quite a long while back I did get a L2D (well a L1D with 2AA tube) and those graphs might work for indoor, round the garden and walking the dog use use but in my paddock my P7 can see more than twice as far as my L2D despite appearing on th egraph to have heaps more grunt.
> 
> Of course I'm now a little better educated and know these graphs tell only part of the story. I now know that beam shape is critical too (in my case much more critical).
> 
> By the way, I've been out there testing again and the P7 eats my new Turbo AA2 Quark for long range work too. I wasn't really expecting the difference between them to be as great as it is. IN terms of lighting a target the P7 really does well for a 4 x AAA torch against such 2 x AA company.



Runtime graph made with lightbox looks different than runtime graph made with just a lux meter.
The regulation, or lack of it shows in both though.
Obviously if you are looking for throw you need more lux, not lumens.


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## Turbo DV8 (Jan 18, 2010)

JaguarDave-in-Oz said:


> I'd look at that graph and say "wow, I gotta get me an L2D to replace my P7, it's gunna outshine it by heaps"... but in my paddock my P7 can see more than twice as far as my L2D despite appearing on the graph to have heaps more grunt. Of course I'm now a little better educated and know these graphs tell only part of the story. I now know that beam shape is critical too.


 
Absolutely. There's only so much light a typical reflector is going to collect and only so tight it's going to be able to concentrate it. What most people will never grasp (because they've written off LED Lenser due to "bad press" here on CPF) is that the prism lens takes throw to a "ho' nudda level" where reflectors can't go! 

I still wish the P7 was a 2AA side-by-side form, though. I explored last night at the long-gone Joyland Park, near Farwell Bridge on the Niles Canyon Railway (Google that, if you're into the steam era!) I used the freshly-charged P7 for 50 minutes, using about 50-50 between high and low, with short bursts of "Turbo." When I got back home I put the AAA's on charge and just over 600 mAh went "back in." There wasn't much life left in them. I think 2AA would give noticeably longer run time, if only LL weren't "anti-circuitry."

I am torn between the low level, though. In flood, even with night-adjusted vision, sometimes it is just too low for walking around in the woods. If I give a burst of turbo, that takes care of that, but then the low is useless for several seconds as the blinded eyes readjust. It really was frustrating! If low were just a bit higher, it could suffice for the majority of time walking in the dark in flood. I suspect law enforcement officers love the very low low, as in flood you could use it to write in your note pad close to your face without affecting your night vision much at all.


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## Monocrom (Jan 18, 2010)

If you need a quick burst of Turbo, just close one eye. Then when you go back into low-mode, open the eye you closed and close the other one.


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## Egsise (Jan 18, 2010)

Turbo DV8 said:


> I suspect law enforcement officers love the very low low, as in flood you could use it to write in your note pad close to your face without affecting your night vision much at all.


True, but just remember to cycle to low before you start reading or writing, that darn thing comes on turbo everytime you fire it up.
"Can I see your drivers licence please?"  AAaaaah my eyes my eyeeesss


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## JaguarDave-in-Oz (Jan 18, 2010)

Surely it would need some sort of lock on the focus before the torch would be acceptable for law enforcement duties?

Apparently the new MT7 will have lockable focus when it eventually arrives on the market (along with an additional regulated mode too for the technophiles), so I wait, and wait and wait......


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## redbird (Jan 21, 2010)

After reading all the posts on this thread I decided to spring for the P7. It is a very nice, bright light hands down. However, I don't really like the switch. I guess I am spoiled by Surefire.


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## Egsise (Jan 21, 2010)

You're right, the switch should have a lockout function, you can't just put it in your pocket or backpack because it turns on so easily by itself.
The holster does prevent that rather well.


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## JaguarDave-in-Oz (Jan 21, 2010)

I can't remember if I mentioned it here or in the P14 thread but what you say was one of the real bugbears I had with my P7 when I carried it daily. It often used to come on while in the torch sleeve on the pants leg of my overalls. I killed a few sets of batteries that way and since they were alkaline AAA's I found that really annoying. Not so bad once the rechargeables came into my life but still not an endearing feature.

Thing is, I fixed it a couple of weeks ago when I had the tailcap apart and found that the switch pressure could be increased by turning the plastic retaining ring inside the tailcap. Now it's almost impossible to accidently bump it on and the switch has a more positive feel. Of course now I have niMH and also no longer carry it every day it's kinda too late to have cured the problem.......


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## don.gwapo (Feb 21, 2010)

Led Lenser P7R and MT7 is worth waiting.


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## Turbo DV8 (Feb 24, 2010)

don.gwapo said:


> Led Lenser P7R and MT7 is worth waiting.


 
If and when anybody sees the P7R in a brick-and-mortar store (Fry's, etc) please post here. Although I just dumped a small fortune in a P7UR and P14UR (_un-_regulated!) I would be interested to see what LL's idea of regulated is when they come out. Thanks.


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## Egsise (Feb 25, 2010)

I know this is old news, but I just tested the Led Lenser P7 vs. Fenix TK20.














No accumulators aka rechargeable batteries..





Runtimes with homemade lightbox:





White balance daylight, exposure etc. settings are same for both shots:

Led Lenser P7 beamshot on high, distance to trees ~35m/115ft





Fenix TK20 beamshot on high, distance to trees ~35m/115ft


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## Ice (Feb 25, 2010)

Nice!


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## Turbo DV8 (Feb 25, 2010)

That tree was too close for the P7! That is a good demo of how the P7 collects more of the spill and concentrates it than a reflector can. If the tree were further away I think the TK would fade away while the P& woudl still illuminate. It also shows the fairly cool color temp of the LL LED's. A bit warmer would be nicer, I think.


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## Egsise (Feb 26, 2010)

I'll try to get another LL P7 for more beamshots, what would be better distance, 300ft?


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## Turbo DV8 (Feb 26, 2010)

No specific distance in mind. One can take two lights, one with twice as much throw as the other, but when one shines it on a wall in the house, there is no way to tell which has more throw outside at distances. The wall is too close to see differences in throw. Just pick some distance where the difference between the two lights is evident, where one becomes very faint but the other still throws. Unless, of course, they really do have equivalent throw. But from the picture I think I can see the LL P7 would illuminate better at greater distances, especially since there is so much less spill.


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## Egsise (Feb 27, 2010)

Dunno, LL P7 has no spill but TK20 hotspot is tighter.
I'll take 300ft beamshots next time.


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## JaguarDave-in-Oz (Feb 27, 2010)

It's been a while now since I compared the two out on the open country and I remember it was pretty close. As I rememebr the P7 had the edge but it wasn't helped by the dim looking yellow tint of the TK20 which allegedly helps in outdoor vision but didn't help me at any decent range at all, just made things look dimmer.

On the other hand, I have been recently checking my P7 on my test range 150 -160 yard fencepost with the black tyre hung on it and it's pretty clear to see the tyre on the post at that range. Not lit up like that tree in the pics above but seeable. I doubt I could have done that with my now departed Tk20 cos it only ever painted things yellow, never made contrasting things easier to see at a distance for me.


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## Turbo DV8 (Feb 28, 2010)

Egsise said:


> Dunno, LL P7 has no spill but TK20 hotspot is tighter.
> I'll take 300ft beamshots next time.


 
The TK20 does look like the hot spot is slightly tighter, but I think I can barely discern that the P7 would have a bit more left to give at greater distances. Either that, or like Jag Dave said, it could all come down to tint affecting perception of brightness.


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## Turboman7 (Feb 28, 2010)

juplin said:


> I woulk like to post the beam patterns of my two focusable lens flashlights for comparison.
> 
> Unit #1 (left) is Cree P4 modded to Cree Q2_5A, Push-pull to adjust focus, powered by 3AAA, priced at $25
> Unit #2 (right) is Non-branded 1W LED, twist to adjust focus, powered by 3AAA, priced at $13
> ...



Hey juplin,

Where did you get those inexpensive lights?


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## JaguarDave-in-Oz (Feb 28, 2010)

and how about some pictures of the beams aimed at a distant object - please.


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## Egsise (Feb 28, 2010)

3xAAA, so there's no driver?


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## Monocrom (Feb 28, 2010)

P7 runs on 4AAA cells. 

I guess it's ideal for someone who wants a powerful light, but wants to standardize on AAA cells. My dad EDCs two different lights that each run on one AAA cell. Both of my EDC back-up lights do too. But even I can't see standardizing on AAA cells, and getting a light that runs on four of them. 

But I guess that's an option for anyone who wants to.


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## Egsise (Feb 28, 2010)

I meant the cheapos are 3xAAA.

LL P7 is quite good with alkalines, but it doesn't benefit a lot if used with rechargeables, easy to see from my runtime graph.


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## Egsise (Mar 28, 2010)

JaguarDave-in-Oz said:


> and how about some pictures of the beams aimed at a distant object - please.


I had a chance to borrow a LL P7 again, took some quick beamshots, it's snowing so no chance to take better ones, sry.
That tree is about 75m or 250ft away.
Led Lenser has a bigger hotspot, and the brown and green tree looks gray but thats about it.

Led Lenser P7, tree at 250ft........Fenix TK20, Tree at 250ft







Led Lenser P7 250ft.....................Fenix TK20 250ft


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## JaguarDave-in-Oz (Mar 28, 2010)

Does pretty well the old P7.


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## Bullzeyebill (Mar 28, 2010)

Egsise said:


> I meant the cheapos are 3xAAA.
> 
> LL P7 is quite good with alkalines, but it doesn't benefit a lot if used with rechargeables, easy to see from my runtime graph.



The NiMh's double the time that the LLP7 stays above 100 on your scale. That looks very good to me.

Bill


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## Egsise (Mar 28, 2010)

JaguarDave-in-Oz said:


> Does pretty well the old P7.


Actually it's the it's the 200 lumen version number 3.1, newest I could find from here.



Bullzeyebill said:


> The NiMh's double the time that the LLP7 stays above 100 on your scale. That looks very good to me.


Yes it's nice, the scale is selected so that the output is very close to the same as advertised, TK20 starts from 150 and LL P7 from 170 lumens.
It's all about how you look at the graphs...

The overall performance of the Led Lenser P7 is ok, but there's very little or no difference in throw compared to TK20.
With fresh batteries and turbo mode the LL P7 is better thrower, with high mode the throw is the same, and with partly used batteries the LL P7 throws less than TK20.

Led Lenser P7 is actually really good flashlight on what is designed for, average Joe that knows only alkaline batteries will be really pleased for the performance of this flashlight.


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## JaguarDave-in-Oz (Mar 28, 2010)

Egsise said:


> Actually it's the it's the 200 lumen version number 3.1, newest I could find from here..


hehe, you took me too literally. Perhaps I would have been clearer in meaning if had I written "the ol' P7"


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## Bullzeyebill (Mar 28, 2010)

I had never owned an LL product prior to winning a P7 at MattK's SHOT party. I was ready to pan it right off until I tried it out. Now, I am sort of a picky flashaholic, preferring SF, Ra, MrBulk, Malkoff, etc creations, but I was really impressed with the LL P7, and what it can do with 4AAA's, the throw it has, and the very useable low mode at night, and using Eneloops has made it even better for me.

Bill


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## Turbo DV8 (Apr 8, 2010)

Bullzeyebill said:


> ...but I was really impressed with the LL P7, and what it can do with 3AAA's...


 
Ooops, better make that 4 AAA's!


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## Turbo DV8 (Apr 9, 2010)

This is just a musing. I bought an A6 Polestar at Fry's, which has the MCE Cree. I returned it because the non-adjustable beam favored spill over throw, and the over-abundant spill actually interfered with the eye's ability to see farther into the throw by causing the pupils to contract. Basically, the lights spill was blinding me, and this was immediately apparent when going back to the P7 and P14 on spot mode.

The thing is, though, doing a ceiling bounce between the two shows that the MCE clearly had a boat load more overall light output than the LED Lenser. That got me to salivating over what could be, if only LED Lenser put an MCE behind that optic in the P14! OMG! I doubt any other light the size of the P14 would be able to even come close in throw. I doubt the AAA format of the P7 would support the MCE, though. If only...


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## JaguarDave-in-Oz (Apr 9, 2010)

Turbo DV8 said:


> , and the over-abundant spill actually interfered with the eye's ability to see farther into the throw by causing the pupils to contract. Basically, the lights spill was blinding me,...


So true. When I'm scanning my top paddock I have a little grove of trees that I stand in, especially if it's raining, and shine the torch out. I can only do it effectively with the LL P7. When I use my quarks or Eagletacs the spill lights up the hangy downy parts of those trees so well that even if the spot is going a hundred yards outwards I can mostly only see the trees right in front of me.

Can't see the forest for the trees........


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## Bullzeyebill (Apr 10, 2010)

Turbo DV8 said:


> Ooops, better make that 4 AAA's!



Whoops, corrected.

Bill


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## rlorion (May 10, 2010)

I love my LL P7...It does throw very well and also flood. I have brighter flashlights but the LL P7 still makes me smile every time.


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## Egsise (May 10, 2010)

rlorion said:


> LL P7 still makes me smile every time.


Yes it sure does. :laughing:


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## kzb (May 18, 2010)

Hi, I'm new here. I've just bought a Led Lenser P7. It's going back because it won't switch off !

Assuming I get a functional replacement, why do they warn against rechargeable batteries (NiMH), and seeing as people on here have used them, is there really any problem ?

Thanks


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## Ice (May 19, 2010)

"Normal" batteries have an open circuit voltage of 1,5V but drop fast to say about 1V when used.
NiMH batteries stay at about 1,2V most of the time, which is a little higher than the conventional battery obviously.
Many people use NiMH batteries in their LedLensers without problems. You won't get any other anwwer...


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## kzb (May 19, 2010)

It annoys me that practically everything you buy says "do not use rechargeable batteries". My other pet hate is things that take THREE batteries, and these products are increasing in number. (In the UK at least, cells are sold in 2- or 4-packs -there are no 3-packs 

On the voltage, I find that rechargeables do not have the punch of a new non-rechargeable, and that must be because the voltage is lower, 1.2V versus 1.5V. I really don't understand how you could damage something when V=IR after all. 1.2V is not going to drive the same current through a circuit as 1.5V?

I DID read somewhere that the voltage of a freshly charged NiMH (straight off the charger) can exceed 1.2V by some margin. What you should do is let it cool for a few hours before using it. I wonder if this is the source of the manufacturers' concerns?


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## Bullzeyebill (May 19, 2010)

kzb, welcome to CPF. As you spend more time here you will find that a lot of the flashlights on the market have a driver circuit, and that rechargeable cells will provide more current over time to the LED than primary, non chargeable cells. Those lights that run direct drive, most of the 3 battery models, do not have a driver circuit, and will be brighter light initially, but the rechargeable cells will be able to hold the voltage longer and will not dim out as fast. The P7, a four cells light, is direct drive with a resistor, and it too will run longer with good output using rechargeable cells. 

Bill


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## Egsise (May 19, 2010)

kzb said:


> I DID read somewhere that the voltage of a freshly charged NiMH (straight off the charger) can exceed 1.2V by some margin. What you should do is let it cool for a few hours before using it. I wonder if this is the source of the manufacturers' concerns?


Good quality freshly charged NiMH is ~1.45 volts, after a month it's ~1.35 volts.
Actually if a NiMH is only 1.2 volts it is allmost empty...


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## Ice (May 20, 2010)

Just a little excursion on batteries: :wave:

Yes, NiMH rechargeable batteries have a better discharge curve meaning that while being discharged they keep the voltage better while the voltage of a normal battery gets lower and lower during its use.

But there's more:
A battery does not have 1.5V under any conditions, independend of its remaining charge. 
(If that was true you could draw infinitely much power out of the battery, albeit for a very short time.)
In fact, the higher currents you try to draw from a battery the lower gets its voltage (for both a nearly depleted and a new battery). 
So in use a 1.5V battery will not have 1.5V but something lower, maybe even lower than 1.2V.

(You'll find more on this topic under key words like "discharge current" and "internal resistance".)


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## Turbo DV8 (May 20, 2010)

kzb said:


> ...why do they warn against rechargeable batteries (NiMH), and seeing as people on here have used them, is there really any problem?


 
No problems reported using NiMH with the P7, but here's the reasoning behind the admonition against it. The internal resistance of an alkaline is inherently much higher than a NiMH. This means that although the voltage of the NiMH is lower than a fresh alkaline, the NiMH will be able to deliver more current, possibly to levels beyond that which the LED was designed for. Direct drive LED lights are often designed to depend upon an alkaline's inherent internal resistance to be a current-limiter. Using NiMH with it's lower internal resistance/higher current capability could damage or age the LED prematurely. That noted, the LED in the P7 may be overdriven using NiMH, but I haven't heard reports of failure. It would likely manifest itself in reduced LED life. But with LED life in the multiple tens of thousands of hours, a reasonable percentage reduction in lifespan might likely still go undiscovered over the life of the user! An LED will also gradually dim over it's "life" and that could be accelerated using NiMH, but again, we are likely talking many hours beyond normal usage. But then again, we aren't talking about "normal" users on CPF, are we?


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## kzb (May 21, 2010)

Thanks for your comments folks. Now you mention it, I do now remember in Physics 101, a cell has an "open circuit" voltage, ie the voltage at zero or neglible current. If you increase the current draw, the voltage will fall. And I can see that the behaviour of different cell types might be different in these circumstances.

However, I still think, in an incandescent flashlight, rechargeables are dimmer than fresh alkalines, and that can only mean the circuit voltage is lower.

As for voltages, I'm surprised that NiMH are 1.35V. They only claim 1.2 or 1.25V maximum. You'd think they would claim 1.35V if that were true, because that would make them closer to standard cells at 1.5V.


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## Bullzeyebill (May 21, 2010)

kzb said:


> Thanks for your comments folks. Now you mention it, I do now remember in Physics 101, a cell has an "open circuit" voltage, ie the voltage at zero or neglible current. If you increase the current draw, the voltage will fall. And I can see that the behaviour of different cell types might be different in these circumstances.
> 
> However, I still think, in an incandescent flashlight, rechargeables are dimmer than fresh alkalines, and that can only mean the circuit voltage is lower.
> 
> As for voltages, I'm surprised that NiMH are 1.35V. They only claim 1.2 or 1.25V maximum. You'd think they would claim 1.35V if that were true, because that would make them closer to standard cells at 1.5V.



While on CPF spend some time in the Incandescent Flashlights forum. You will be amazed at what is going on with rechargeable cells in the Hot Wire lights, something that Alkaline primary cells can never do. Actually rechargeable NiMh's can be charged up to 1.45 volts, or sometimes higher. There will be a drop off of voltage while they rest off the charger the first hour or so, but they will still be around 1.4+ volts, open circuit, for awhile, with very high current available. During a runtime in a flashlight, the ideal situation would be the voltage sag to stay at or above 1.2 volts per cell for most of the run, an easy accomplishment for a good NiMh.

Bill


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## Egsise (May 21, 2010)

kzb said:


> As for voltages, I'm surprised that NiMH are 1.35V. They only claim 1.2 or 1.25V maximum. You'd think they would claim 1.35V if that were true, because that would make them closer to standard cells at 1.5V.


That's why I said good quality NiMH.


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## kzb (May 28, 2010)

According to Wiki, the 1.2V for a rechargeable battery is at a discharge rate of "0.2C" per hour. "C" is the capacity, so it means that a 1000mA-h AAA cell supplying 200mA would be at 1.2V. Presumably a bit higher at lower currents and lower at higher currents.

Also I have yet to see a light curve versus time where the voltage from a NiMH at any point on its curve exceeds the initial voltage from a new alkaline (can be 1.6-1.7V). So I'm still a bit puzzled.

I've now got the replacement P7 and the switch seems quite satisfactory. I've another comment though: on the front it has a big red sticker "200 Lumens *". The asterix takes you to some small print on the side, and when you put your glasses on, you can see it says this can vary by +/-15%. Minus 15% from 200 and you get 170 Lumens, precisely the stated output of the previous version ?!!!


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## Egsise (May 28, 2010)

And that 200 lumens is the 130% momentarily turbo mode.


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## Turbo DV8 (May 28, 2010)

kzb said:


> ...on the front it has a big red sticker "200 Lumens *". The asterix takes you to some small print on the side, and when you put your glasses on, you can see it says this can vary by +/-15%. Minus 15% from 200 and you get 170 Lumens, precisely the stated output of the previous version ?!!!


 
Unless that version also has the same asterisk! :devil:


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## Egsise (May 29, 2010)

It could be +15% too.


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## kzb (Jun 1, 2010)

I've now got my replacement P7 with free P3. The switch on the replacement P7 appears to work fine, but the P3 switch is not as good as on the first one. Perhaps it will free up in use as the P7's seemed to do.

The P7 is satisfactorily bright on Full, easily beating my Maglite 2AA 3W LED and my "1W" Tesco 2AA flashlight (which I think might be 3 watt in reality because it is the same brightness as the Maglite).

You have to _try_ to perceive the brightness increase on Boost (supposed to go up from 170 to 200 lumen). It's actually difficult to notice the difference in any practical situation, in fact I wonder if this feature is working correctly.

On 15% mode, it is still quite bright, beating my 2W Inova X1, at least on _perceived_ brightness.

The focussing is quite good, and you can do it one-handed, but it does not focus down to a tight beam with _no_ spill. There is _some_ spill, but many people of course prefer that.

The holster provided is a bit tight for the P7, perhaps it will slacken off in use. There is no provision for storing spare cells etc. One lanyard was provided in the pack.

The "free" P3 just about beats the Inova X1 for brightness, even though the LED is rated at only 0.33W versus the Inova's 2W. Perhaps this will not last long as the cell is used because it is not regulated like the Inova.

It does not focus to a tight long-range beam, there is considerable spill which limits its range. Interestingly, when defocussed, you get a projector-style tight circle of light with no spill. It looks like you are projecting an image of the moon on the wall (although the illumination is very even across the circle.

The P3 is small enough to go in your jeans pocket or put on a key-ring if you are not bothered about scratching it. A ring is provided which will fit it to your belt hoops handily. No lanyard for the P3 was in the P7 + free P3 pack I bought.


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## JaguarDave-in-Oz (Jun 1, 2010)

kzb said:


> You have to _try_ to perceive the brightness increase on Boost (supposed to go up from 170 to 200 lumen). It's actually difficult to notice the difference in any practical situation, in fact I wonder if this feature is working correctly.


take it out into the bush and use it over 150 yards and the difference will become obvious. In closer work the difference tends to be irrelevant.


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## kzb (Jun 1, 2010)

You might be right JaguarDave-in-Oz. I've not used it in a truly dark outdoors setting yet, only in an urban area with sky-shine from street lighting.

Overall I'm happy with the product. I'm pleased I came on here: one thing it has given me confidence to use rechargeable cells. I wouldn't have risked this with such an expensive piece of kit without seeing what other people have done. Looking at the run chart, NiMH's should _improve_ the overall performance by providing a more steady output for longer.


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## was.lost.but.now.found (Jun 1, 2010)

Would someone who owns this light consider sending it to BigChelis to measure true OTF lumens? I don't believe he or MrGman have ever tested a Coast/LL light, it would be nice to check how well the supposed "resistor-regulation" works. And no I'm not trying to put it down, just don't have any better words to describe it.


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## Turbo DV8 (Jun 1, 2010)

was.lost.but.now.found said:


> ... it would be nice to check how well the supposed "resistor-regulation" works.


 
The P7 is not regulated.


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## kzb (Jun 2, 2010)

was.lost.but.now.found : 
I don't have the instrumental performance measuring capability, but I can assure you that the P7 is subjectively significantly brighter than the flashlights I mention in my long post above, when it is on its 170 or 200 lumen settings.

Another moan which I forgot to mention: the packaging. I got the P7 plus "free" P3 promotional blister pack. This includes a plastic mirror and a little plastic lever to test the P7 from outside the pack. I wonder how much the packaging cost has added to the retail cost. And I wonder how many injuries are caused per year opening these things.

Also, I think it is a bit cheeky to sell products that have been "tested" by every other kid that passes the stand. If LL want to do this they should have a display model, which can later be sold off at half price.


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## was.lost.but.now.found (Jun 2, 2010)

Turbo DV8 said:


> The P7 is not regulated.


 
I thought I had read that the resistor (or was it the internal resistance of alkaline batteries) functioned well enough to quasi-regulate the constant brightness. Is that not correct, or am I thinking of a different light?



kzb said:


> was.lost.but.now.found :
> I don't have the instrumental performance measuring capability, but I can assure you that the P7 is subjectively significantly brighter than the flashlights I mention in my long post above, when it is on its 170 or 200 lumen settings.


 
I don't find it that surprising that it beat out a mini-mag. I was more interested to know how its 170-200 lumens compared to 200 Fenix, 4Sevens, or EagleTac lumens. Upon reviewing the thread though I see Bullzeyebill's graph which helps out a lot.


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## crossliner67 (Jun 2, 2010)

Hello everyone. Recently bought a LL M7 from Cebu City Phils. w/c has a higher lumens rating by 28 than the 200 lumen P7. It also has a longer throw so they stated but I don't have a P7 to compare it w/. I am waiting for the Tiablo A9 w/c I hope will be handcarried by my aunt in Canada to the Philippines on the 16th. Someone mentioned in another P7 thread that the P7 will outthrow the A9:thinking:. I want to see it myself.:wave:


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## kzb (Jun 3, 2010)

The M7 is not _that_ much more expensive than the P7 either. I thought it would be.

It's advertised as 225 lumen. Going by the perceived difference between 170 and 200 on the P7 I would not hold my breath.

Can you use NiMH cells like people say you can with the P7?


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## Turbo DV8 (Jun 3, 2010)

was.lost.but.now.found said:


> I thought I had read that the resistor (or was it the internal resistance of alkaline batteries) functioned well enough to quasi-regulate the constant brightness. Is that not correct, or am I thinking of a different light?


 
I don't consider a resistor to be regulation. It keeps neither the current or voltage to the LED constant (regulated). It just keeps it from burning up.


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## Turbo DV8 (Jun 3, 2010)

kzb said:


> Also, I think it is a bit cheeky to sell products that have been "tested" by every other kid that passes the stand. If LL want to do this they should have a display model, which can later be sold off at half price.


 
Think of it as a way to have a well-tested switch before you buy it! Inova does this also. Any others?


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## GarageBoy (Jun 4, 2010)

Most misleading name ever...(to a cpfer) 
I keep reading the title and thinking that it has a P7


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## fishdude (Jun 8, 2010)

thankyou


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## Rayhan (Jun 10, 2010)

HI,
IT MIGHT BE A WRONG PLACE TO ASK BUT,
SHOULD I BUY LL P14 OR FENIX TK2O? I HAVE ENELOOPS. BOTH ARE ALMOST SAME PRICE IN UK.


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## kzb (Jun 10, 2010)

I got a 4-pack Duracell Accu Supreme NiMH 1000mA cells last night, £7.99. These are long term charge-retaining NiMH cells. 

I thought _these_ are the cells for my LL P7. However, I was unable to repeat the observations of people on this forum. There is even a plot above which shows NiMH cells brighter over the majority of the discharge curve. My observations are completely at variance with this.

The Boost (130%) push button did not function at all. The 100% setting was only vaguely brighter than the 15% setting when using alkalines. The 15% setting was truly dim. I thought I had broken something.

However when I returned the alkaline cells everything was back to normal (phew!).

SO what is going on? Are UK NiMH cells different in some way to the USA versions?


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## JaguarDave-in-Oz (Jun 10, 2010)

kzb said:


> I got a 4-pack Duracell Accu Supreme NiMH 1000mA cells last night, £7.99. These are long term charge-retaining NiMH cells.
> 
> I thought _these_ are the cells for my LL P7. ................
> 
> ...


Did you charge them before you put them in?


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## kzb (Jun 10, 2010)

I admit I did not charge the Accu cells. I thought they are "ready for use" off the shelf? A second reason is that I did not want to risk putting in freshly charged cells in case I blew something.

Anyway I guess this is the next thing to try though. I have to say, I have _never_ found rechargeable cells to give the same kick as new primary cells in any device. This is why I find it surprising that people say they can overdrive things and cause damage.


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## crossliner67 (Jun 10, 2010)

kzb said:


> The M7 is not _that_ much more expensive than the P7 either. I thought it would be.
> 
> It's advertised as 225 lumen. Going by the perceived difference between 170 and 200 on the P7 I would not hold my breath.
> 
> Can you use NiMH cells like people say you can with the P7?


 Yes the M7 manual clearly states it's safe to use NIMH. All kinds 3AAA batts including high current versions and there ain't no warning to refrain from using lithiums. I intend to use Energizer lithiums when the them LL alkaline batts run dry. Hey does your P7 manual say otherwise? The M7 is also brighter than the P7. Kindly check out INFOSEEKER'S MT7 (same as the M7 but w/ assault tailcap) review and beamshots. Last night I had a shootout w/ my nephew against his Fenix TK20 w/ Energizer lithiums in it and my M7 was like who's your daddy hehe. Yeah it beat his TK by a significant margin in brightness and satisfactorily in throw. JaguarDave's right after all. We could clearly see a rat going back and forth along a coconut leaf branch or stem or whatever it's called from afar using the M7 but not so much the TK. I have a very sharp eye when it comes to vermin because I hunt them w/ my blowgun(s) and airgun. Hit the 1 thou mark ratkills last April I even intend to hunt tonight. It's my 2-3x a week routine gents.:wave:


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## kzb (Jun 10, 2010)

Crossliner67 are you from the colonies by any chance?


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## kzb (Jun 10, 2010)

Stranger and stranger. The Duracell Accu Stay-Charged AAA cells do not exist on the internet at 1000mA capacity. Only 800mA, and they are £11.99 (4-pack) on Sainsbury's web site.

Yet I thought I bought 4xAAA Stay-Charged 1000mA from Sainsbury's supermarket last night for £7.99. I am going to have to look into this. Perhaps this is the source of my problem with the LL P7.


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## crossliner67 (Jun 10, 2010)

kzb said:


> Crossliner67 are you from the colonies by any chance?


Hola KZB. I am from the Philippines and I live in Davao City w/c is the largest city in the world in terms of land area. Blowgunning is a hobby of mine w/c I do regularly:laughing:. Kindly check this out http://blowgun.lefora.com/2010/01/06/new-hunting-blowgun-for-2010-still-in-the-works-he/page2/


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## kzb (Jun 11, 2010)

I think that'd be illegal here crossliner67 (most things are).

Back to my issue with the Duracell AAA's: the pack is labelled _Duracell Accu_. I thought all _Accu_ cells are of the stay-charged variety. However it does not say this on the pack or on the cells themselves. So I guess I've been caught out.

Thought it was too good to be true for £7.99

This is indeed the source of my problem. The LL P7 works fine with Hybrio stay-charged NiMH cells. The difficulty with the Duracell Accu NiMH cells is basically that they were not charged up.


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## harro (Jul 5, 2010)

Hello, for what they're worth, here are my observations re. LLP7.
I own a P7 and P14.
I have, at one time or another, ran both torches on primary's, NiMh and Lithiums ( NOT Li-Ion's ).
The only effect i have noticed on Lithiums was that the P14 had an ever so slight bluish tint, wheras on primary's and NiMh cool white.
P14 out throws P7 comfortably.
Both have some artifacts on flood and spot.
Runtime on NiMh about 1 hr, then rapid dimming. Primary similar but a much longer and more gradual dimming. Lithium about 3 hr then rapid dimming ( all for P7 ).
P14 has similar characteristics but over a longer time.
Build quality very good for both, but generally lighter duty compared to the likes of Fenix, Tiablo, Olight etc. etc.
My P7 comfortably out throws my A9 Tiablo ( someone mentioned that earlier in the thread ), but not to say the P7 is a better torch
Both torches on all battery configurations are easy to pick different output levels. ie; 130%-15%-100%
Finish on both marks easier than anything else.
I like both torches because they suit my purposes
Cheers Harro.


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## Bullzeyebill (Jul 6, 2010)

I own a P7, you say that it has three levels? I must not be accessing all of them. I see high then low, but a third level?

Bill


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## Egsise (Jul 6, 2010)

harro said:


> I own a P7 and P14.
> I have, at one time or another, ran both torches on primary's, NiMh and Lithiums ( NOT Li-Ion's ).
> The only effect *i have noticed on Lithiums was that the P14 had an ever so slight bluish tint*, wheras on primary's and NiMh cool white.
> P14 out throws P7 comfortably......
> ...



Lithiums, seriously??
I guess that the led will burn out pretty quickly...

Your P7 throws better than Tiablo A9?
My Fenix TK20 throws almost the same as Led Lenser P7.
Conclusion: Fenix TK20 throw is the same as with Tiablo A9.
Really?



Bullzeyebill said:


> I own a P7, you say that it has three levels? I must not be accessing all of them. I see high then low, but a third level


The UI is: 130%(momentary only)-100%-15%-off


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## Bullzeyebill (Jul 6, 2010)

Thank you. I never noticed the difference between burst and high before, but now I do see it.

Bill


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## harro (Jul 6, 2010)

> Your P7 throws better than Tiablo A9?
> My Fenix TK20 throws almost the same as Led Lenser P7.
> Conclusion: Fenix TK20 throw is the same as with Tiablo A9.
> Really


?

Yes!

Dont know about the TK20/A9 throw, havn't tried that one.

Cheers Harro.


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## harro (Jul 6, 2010)

Humble apologies for 130/15/100%. 130% level is indeed momentary with only 15/100% being fixed levels. I Stand Corrected.
Cheers Harro.


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## berrybank (Apr 21, 2011)

I am looking for a flashlight with a good throw. I have been recommend the led lenser mt7 or the eagle t20c markII. Can you recommended which one or another one?


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## Blitzwing (Apr 21, 2011)

berrybank said:


> I am looking for a flashlight with a good throw. I have been recommend the led lenser mt7 or the eagle t20c markII. Can you recommended which one or another one?



Different emitter options for the T20C2. For throw the XR-E R2 is the one to go for. Tried the XP-G in this light and it was not a good thrower. 

Have not compared them with a LL P7 though.


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## HKJ (Apr 21, 2011)

berrybank said:


> I am looking for a flashlight with a good throw. I have been recommend the led lenser mt7 or the eagle t20c markII. Can you recommended which one or another one?


 
For good throw it is difficult to beat the focus of Led Lenser (I do not know how well the MT7 focus), but you get a beam full of artifacts.


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## swan (Apr 24, 2011)

gday i have a lenser p7 good torch but when i got the jetbeam rrt1 i dont use it any more.


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## packer (Jun 4, 2011)

After using my P7 for over a month now, I'm less enthralled with it. I also own a Fenix LD20, which I love (except for its crappy holster). Here are my thoughts on it:

Pros
-Nice, long throw. It certainly appears brighter than my LD20 (Q4), at least with fresh batteries.
-The focusable beam is unique, and of course is kind of like two lights in one.
-Nice holster (especially compared to the POS that came with my LD20)

Cons
-non-regulated - I know this has been stated numerous times. But even for a newbie like me, after using it a while and noticing how it just gradually gets dimmer, till one day it's just not bright any more, I don't like it. My LD20 stays constantly bright until the batteries need to be changed. It was said that the average consumer doesn't know the difference between regulated and non, but after using both I know why regulated lights are so much better.
-relatively large - Not huge, but too big for me for EDC.
-no anti-roll feature - really annoying if you don't set it on its head
-can't tail stand
-water proofing is pretty minimal (result of its unique focusing head)
-poor heat sinking (although I've yet to see negative consequences of that)
-supposedly can't use NiMH's, although I do (also yet to see negative consequences)
-This is minor, but I don't like having to cycle through "low" to turn it off. The UI is pretty basic.

In general, the only thing the P7 has going for it is its focusing head, which does give you a nice long throw, and also a nice big flood. And those are big things. It has a lot going against it though. For the money, I think there are better options out there.http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/images/icons/icon10.gif


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## Bonedoc (Feb 29, 2012)

I just bought it for $32 and so I think that given the 'good' overall rating that was a nice purchase. Little gift for the wife, 
yup, she actually digs this stuff.


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## bykfixer (Aug 26, 2015)

Just went back in time and purchased one of these while I was there. 

Not expecting the modern (015) tech and performance, I just wanted to add one to my ever growing Coast HP collection. It seems this light eventually lead to their 360 lumen model.

I kinda dig on the round, fairly plain retro look to the light and look forward to trying it out with some eneloops.

Edit:
Surprisingly it turns out mine is a fake. I wouldn't have thought that particular light would be one to be plagerized several years later. I await the one I found by a reputable dealer (vs the sketchy Amazon one) to compare the two, 'cause the fake one is a pretty good replica. Weighty, solid build etc...like my old LL's were.


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