# Advantages of titanium?



## Guy's Dropper (Jan 4, 2009)

What are the advantages of making a light out of titanium vs. aluminum? Titanium is less conductive and has worse heat-transfer. I expected one would be the titanium being lighter, as titanium has a much higher strength to weight ratio, but titanium flashlights tend to be significantly heavier than their aluminum counterparts. What gives?


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## Marduke (Jan 4, 2009)

https://www.candlepowerforums.com/posts/2671479


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## Oddjob (Jan 4, 2009)

I think there is a bit of a bling factor when it come to titanium lights but titanium can also be reworked and polished to better than new. I can't remember the thread now but IIRC a titanium light had a run in with the road and the pictures of the light after the owner repolished it were amazing. An aluminum light will do the same job as a titanium one but it will show scratches and once the anodizing is scarred, a consumer can never make it look as good as new.


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## Guy's Dropper (Jan 4, 2009)

I like the look of raw aluminum more than raw titanium, although I'm not quite sure, since I only have one tiny titanium light.


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## jzmtl (Jan 4, 2009)

Oddjob said:


> bling



That's about it.


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## Sgt. LED (Jan 4, 2009)

A little lighter than steel?

Honestly I have no Ti. :shakehead


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## Yucca Patrol (Jan 4, 2009)

The only piece of titanium I have is my wedding ring. For the most part, titanium flashlights are just plain cool. 

Just like women like diamonds and gold and platinum when cheaper materials shine just as bright, some men have a thing for titanium.


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## brucec (Jan 4, 2009)

For flashlights, Ti is basically just for bling. Of course Ti is more durable and corrosion resistant, but I have never heard of a robust Al flashlight wearing through. Ti is better than Al in seawater, but for the size of the typical custom Ti flashlight (1xCR123 or smaller), they would not be used for a main dive light anyway. I don't think anyone is really utilizing the inherent toughness of Ti over Al in a flashlight application. Maybe deflecting bullets?

Ti does have some considerable disadvantages when used for LED flashlights, such as much lower heat conductivity and cost. Also, Ti threads are gritty feeling and not nearly as smooth as Al or SS.

That said, my favorite lights are still Ti which goes to show that there is more to a good flashlight than just materials or pure output power.


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## Maxwell (Jan 4, 2009)

My next light will be Titanium. I have been obsessed with the metal ever since a portion of my skull has been replaced with Titanium. :tinfoil:


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## Cydonia (Jan 4, 2009)

The sad thing is that all the Ti lights I've seen in pictures and read about would _*probably*_ be no tougher than an off the shelf Inova X5. I swear that one of these sapphire lens Ti lights would cease to function if dropped on a concrete floor a few times. Still just fragile little circuit boards and drivers inside...  
A light is only as strong as its weakest link... which are circuits and batteries.
For the last few decades Hollywood movies and TV shows have hyped up Titanium to the point where the masses think it is endowed with supernatural properties :laughing:


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## StarHalo (Jan 4, 2009)

The only titanium object I have thus far is my coffee cup:







When I do get a Ti light, I'll probably look into getting it TiCN coated; I dig the 9.5-Mohs-scale bling..


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## Kestrel (Jan 4, 2009)

StarHalo said:


> When I do get a Ti light, I'll probably look into getting it TiCN coated; I dig the 9.5-Mohs-scale bling..


Now that's a good idea, I like that. Prettier than polished Ti or TiN, IMO.


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## brighterisbetter (Jan 4, 2009)

Isn't Ti also known for maintaining it's structural integrity under load? Cruzer flash drives a while back made the Titanium series where the cases themselves had migrated from either plastic or aluminum to titanium. I believe it was touted that the crush force exceeded 2000 pounds.


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## brucec (Jan 4, 2009)

brighterisbetter said:


> Isn't Ti also known for maintaining it's structural integrity under load? Cruzer flash drives a while back made the Titanium series where the cases themselves had migrated from either plastic or aluminum to titanium. I believe it was touted that the crush force exceeded 2000 pounds.



So, what kind of loads do your flashlights typically encounter? The most mine see are self-imposed from the crushing force of the McGizmo Ti clip.


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## StarHalo (Jan 4, 2009)

brighterisbetter said:


> Isn't Ti also known for maintaining it's structural integrity under load?



Thanks to creative flashaholics who helped abuse-test the Fenix T1 back when it first came out, we know that a good aluminum flashlight will withstand ~20,000 lbs. So a Ti light (grade 5) will have a crush resistance somewhere around ~100,000 lbs. 

That means not only could you run over the Ti light with a semi truck, but you could remove some wheels from the semi and repeat the test, the light would be unfazed.


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## brighterisbetter (Jan 4, 2009)

StarHalo said:


> Thanks to creative flashaholics who helped abuse-test the Fenix T1 back when it first came out...


Oh yeah, thanks for the reminder, here's the YouTube LINK.

And for a bit further reading, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Titanium


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## Isak Hawk (Jan 4, 2009)

Cydonia said:


> The sad thing is that all the Ti lights I've seen in pictures and read about would _*probably*_ be no tougher than an off the shelf Inova X5. I swear that one of these sapphire lens Ti lights would cease to function if dropped on a concrete floor a few times. Still just fragile little circuit boards and drivers inside...
> A light is only as strong as its weakest link... which are circuits and batteries.


 
I've dropped some of my titanium/sapphire McGizmo's quite a few times(hardwood floors, asphalt, stone floor tiles, etc.) No failures so far 
I don't know if they're as tough as Inova's, but they're not fragile, that's for sure!


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## MarNav1 (Jan 4, 2009)

Bling.


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## carrot (Jan 4, 2009)

Titanium is better for custom makers for a few reasons:
- people who are interested in super-premium flashlights seem to prefer Ti
- Ti does not need to be anodized or coated -- non-HA Al is softer than Ti and deforms more readily, and non-Chemkoted/similar Al has higher electrical resistance than Ti (Ti does not oxidize as readily as Al, and oxidized Al has high electrical resistance) -- while it may be far cheaper for SF to use Al and do HA in-house a custom maker does not have this option and has to ship parts out (and worry about loss)
- Ti is lighter than a lot of other metals that could be chosen for corrosion resistance and hardness, stainless for instance
- According to McGizmo it becomes more economical over Al for smaller runs, probably due to the need for a coating


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## MKLight (Jan 5, 2009)

Sorry...duplicate post.


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## MKLight (Jan 5, 2009)

Very interesting! Excellent summary! Thank you, Carrot!!! 

Mike



carrot said:


> Titanium is better for custom makers for a few reasons:
> - people who are interested in super-premium flashlights seem to prefer Ti
> - Ti does not need to be anodized or coated -- non-HA Al is softer than Ti and deforms more readily, and non-Chemkoted/similar Al has higher electrical resistance than Ti (Ti does not oxidize as readily as Al, and oxidized Al has high electrical resistance) -- while it may be far cheaper for SF to use Al and do HA in-house a custom maker does not have this option and has to ship parts out (and worry about loss)
> - Ti is lighter than a lot of other metals that could be chosen for corrosion resistance and hardness, stainless for instance
> - According to McGizmo it becomes more economical over Al for smaller runs, probably due to the need for a coating


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## js (Jan 5, 2009)

Just for "bling"?

OK. No.

Yes, Ti doesn't conduct heat quite as well as Al, and has a slightly higher electrical resistance than Al. True. But irrelevant. It conducts both heat and electricity _more than well enough_ for the demands being placed upon it by any small, reasonable wattage flashlight. I mean, by these arguments, we should all be using copper because it is more conductive than aluminum! Give me a break! I mean, yes, if you are absolutely pushing the envelope and are forcing a lot of current through a bunch of high powered LED's, then, no, you don't want a Titanium head. But short of that, the lower heat conductivity of Titanium has little effect on the total heat transfer situation, and that's because the bottleneck for heat transfer is at the air/body junction (or hand/body junction), which involves not just conductive heat transfer but also radiative heat transfer (where Ti does quite well!), and where the heat transfer rate is the lowest of the whole system.

It's like saying that we need a five lane highway going up to a one lane bridge because a four lane highway doesn't carry as much traffic as a five lane highway. HELLO! It doesn't frigging matter because all the cars are backed up at the bridge anyway.

This is why heat sinks have all those fins on them to increase the surface area, which is like adding more lanes to the bridge, and it's also why the aluminum on heat sinks is anodized. The anodizing has a really crappy heat conductivity, but that is a trade off in order to gain a _greater radiative heat transfer_ via a higher emissivity rating.

So yes, there's no question that if heat transfer really were a serious concern (like in a heat sink), you wouldn't use Titanium, but it's also true that heat transfer at the flashlight body is NOT a serious concern. At the LED die/heat sink junction, the story is different, and you want aluminum there, and all the Titanium lights I know of do indeed have aluminum heat sinks in contact with the LED dies, but after that, Titanium is no problem.

As for electrical conductivity, the amount of material involved in the conduction pathway is _enormous_--way, way bigger than electrical house wiring rated for 20 amps!--so the total resistance of _both_ a titanium and aluminum bodied flashlight is so low as to be irrelevant.

But, what IS relevant in terms of electrical conductivity is _contact resistance_, and it's the reason why almost all aluminum lights are Chemkoted. They have to be. A bare aluminum to bare aluminum interface is prone to developing very high resistance, especially if it comes in contact with various elements. If I go out right now to a bunch of bar stock and try to measure the resistance of a length of it with a DMM, I would put my money on the titanium bar over the aluminum bar any frickin day of the week! That aluminum will probably have a high resistance surface film--an oxide. No fun.

Titanium, in sharp contrast, has a surface oxide that is nicely conductive.

So, no need to Chemkote. It's conductive through and through.

As for "bling", well, yes, Titanium does look and feel awesome. I (and many others) love it. But practically speaking, there is a much greater advantage to be gained in using titanium than looks: durability. If I drop an HA light onto concrete or any other hard surface chances are good I'll knock off a flake of hard anodize. This simply can't be repaired. Knock off enough of it, and the soft aluminum underneath wears away relatively quickly. Think I'm exaggerating? I used to think this line of argument was hyperbole too, at one point, but then I saw what had become of my brother's Arc AAA-LE. Almost all the HA was missing from it, and the bare aluminum there on the knurling points was worn away, leaving a very shiny, pretty smooth, and fairly ugly looking Arc AAA. And this was only three years of EDC carry on a keychain. Not really what I had expected from the vaunted HARD ANODIZE.

As McGizmo said in another thread--and I totally agree--it's nice to know that you will stop using a light because _you_ got tired of it, and not because it got tired and worn. Titanium, being one thing through and through, can be completely resurfaced and reworked, even after a horrific marring and deformation of the surface. Here's a great example. Here are a pair of before and after pictures of a light which was being carried when the person got in a motorcycle accident. (The important thing is that he wasn't seriously injured, BTW) Check out what happened to his Ti-PD:







Nasty marks on the light! Not really very appealing. But, after some filing and sanding and metal working and polishing, look what happened:






Try that with an aluminum HA light!

Titanium is just a very, very appealing metal, both visually and tactilely. It looks great, it feels great. If that's "bling", well, OK, sign me up. But it's really not "bling". Bling is just "man jewelry", and a titanium light is far more than just that. You know that your Titanium light is _going to last_. Yes, if the circuit board is crap and isn't properly secured and you smack your light onto concrete, titanium won't make a bit of difference, but at least in the case of a McGizmo light you know that that link in the chain is just as well forged as all the other links in the chain.

I have dropped my LunaSol 20 onto a very very hard surface (ceramic) and it was completely unfazed and unaffected. Don's Titanium lights are known for being very drop resistant in general, in fact.

So . . .

Do you _need_ to use Titanium? No. And you shouldn't use it if cost is a factor.

But if cost is no object do you _want_ a titanium light over an HA aluminum light? *HELL YES!* But that's just me, I guess.

I wonder, though, how many of the anti-titanium posters here on CPF have actually _used and handled_ a titanium light for more than a few minutes? It seems to me that most people who experience a titanium light aren't really interested in going back and find the extra expense to be well worth it.

Just a thought. YMMV.


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## js (Jan 5, 2009)

brighterisbetter said:


> Isn't Ti also known for maintaining it's structural integrity under load? Cruzer flash drives a while back made the Titanium series where the cases themselves had migrated from either plastic or aluminum to titanium. I believe it was touted that the crush force exceeded 2000 pounds.



That may have been part of the reason, but the more important reason for using titanium in these situations is that it holds up much better to repeated stress reversals. In other words, take a paper clip and bend in one direction. OK, no problem. Bend it some more in the same direction. Still no problem. But, start repeatedly reversing directions and you've got a problem. The metal at the stress point rearranges itself and becomes highly brittle there and snaps. Most steel and aluminum alloys are both prone to this.

Titanium and its alloys hold up better, in general, in these situations. And also in any situations, like for an aircraft landing strut, where there is repeated impact stress.

This is why titanium is considered highly _durable_, and why the highest grade bolts and fasteners are made from titanium.


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## easilyled (Jan 5, 2009)

Very convincing argument js.

However you have forgotten by far the most important advantage of Aluminium which is:-

I wouldn't feel nearly as bad if I lost an Al light compared to losing a Ti light.


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## js (Jan 5, 2009)

easilyled,

Indeed! But I can see from your sigline that that hasn't deterred you from owning some pretty freaking spectacular Ti lights!

everyone,

One more little advantage of using a Titanium body, which Don mentioned in the last thread on this subject:

If the LED heatsink is made from aluminum, and the body is made from Titanium, then as the aluminum heat sink heats up in use, its great coefficient of expansion vs. titanium means that that mechanical junction gets mated all the better due to the increased force of the aluminum heat sink as it tries to expand against the titanium body. This ensures an _excellent_ thermal joint at this junction. Nice little side benefit of using a titanium body.


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## AA6TZ (Jan 5, 2009)

carrot said:


> Read carrot's post *here*


 
+1 Every statement spot-on correct, Sir. Very well done! :goodjob: :thanks:
-Clive


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## Oddjob (Jan 5, 2009)

These are the pictures I was referring to. Thanks JS.



js said:


> Just for "bling"? ...
> 
> ...Here's a great example. Here are a pair of before and after pictures of a light which was being carried when the person got in a motorcycle accident. (The important thing is that he wasn't seriously injured, BTW) Check out what happened to his Ti-PD:
> 
> ...


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## Wardind (Jan 5, 2009)

1.Titanium the most corrosion resistant industrial metal.Virtually acid & salt water proof.

2.Titanium is lighter than steel.

3.Titanium(6Al4V) is stronger than all but speciality alloy steels.

4. Although Titanium is slightly heavier than aluminum it is much stronger,corrosion & abrasion resistant than any Aluminum grade.

5. Titanium has a unique exotic precision aircraft look that is like no other metal.

6. Titanium is a refractory metal in some alloys has great strength under high heat.

Wade Nye


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## jzmtl (Jan 5, 2009)

Wardind said:


> 1.Titanium the most corrosion resistant industrial metal.Virtually acid & salt water proof.
> 
> 2.Titanium is lighter than steel.
> 
> ...



It again come back to that none of the advantages will come into play as far as flashlight is concerned, except in very rare freak accident like JS posted.


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## Marduke (Jan 5, 2009)

Just don't clean the threads with methanol....


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## AMRaider (Jan 5, 2009)

Marduke said:


> Just don't clean the threads with methanol....


 
I havn't tried this.. Would methanol really hurt Titanium??


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## Marduke (Jan 5, 2009)

AMRaider said:


> I havn't tried this.. Would methanol really hurt Titanium??



Methanol (a common component of many cleaning solvents) will cause stress corrosion cracking in titanium.


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## Th232 (Jan 5, 2009)

Ouch... any other common chems that should be avoided (e.g. ethanol)?


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## Guy's Dropper (Jan 5, 2009)

Maybe some day I'll get a McGizmo Ti light, but right now, when none of my aluminum lights have failed due to wear, I cannot justify the cost, let alone afford it.


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## carrot (Jan 5, 2009)

A quick search brings this up:


> Methanol Environments
> The only other environment that has been shown to cause stress corrosion of commercially pure titanium as well as titanium alloys is methanol. Failure again is by intergranular cracking and the mechanism is more likely if bromine, chlorine, or iodine ions are present in the alcohol. Again the presence of a small amount of water will completely prevent attack, 4% giving immunity to all grades and all alloys.


http://www.azom.com/details.asp?ArticleID=1336


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## DonShock (Jan 5, 2009)

For the items I wear on a necklace 24/7, the main reason for going Ti is the corrosion resistance, light weight, and no skin reactions. I had some prior items in both Al and SS. I carried fewer items and the weight was very noticable. After a fairly short time, the surface finish would become very dingy. And occasionally, it would start to irritate the skin and I would need to take a break from wearing for a week or so. And Bling is not an issue since it's always worn under my shirt.


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## js (Jan 6, 2009)

jzmtl said:


> It again come back to that none of the advantages will come into play as far as flashlight is concerned, except in very rare freak accident like JS posted.



jzmtl,

It's true that the high yield strength of 6-4 Ti is irrelevant for flashlight use. Totally, completely agree.

Also, despite the high yield strength, Ti is actually _softer_ than steel, and thus will scratch more easily. I think I remember hearing about a watch company that has figured out how to surface/case harden Titanium to work around this, but I don't have any links or stats.

So, the freak accident isn't the issue. The advantage I spoke about _wasn't that the Ti light didn't break during the accident!!!_. The advantage is that _after_ the accident, the light was able to be re-surfaced and brought back to a beautiful looking finish and light. And the softness (relatively--still a lot harder than bare Al) actually helps with that re-surfacing.

But, it doesn't require a freak accident for one to appreciate that advantage! Drop your light on concrete? Put a serious ding or scratch in it somewhere? No problem. It can be worked out, if you want. Plus, the wear and tear on the titanium body actually accumulates into an appealing _patina_, much like Platinum. It looks good all scratched up.

The same can NOT be said for Aluminum with an HA finish! Flake bits of that off, and add some scratches, and it just doesn't look (or feel) good. And do enough of that and the bare aluminum underneath wears away at a worrying rate.

THOSE are the advantages! Not the super high yield strength. That's just kinda cool.


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## js (Jan 6, 2009)

carrot,

Thanks for the info. Kinda makes a person wonder where and when you might run into 96 percent _pure_ methanol! Holy cow! Personally, I'm not worried about that possibility.


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## Speedwar (Jan 6, 2009)

My only pc of titanium flashlight is shown on my avatar. I like the "feel" of this metal. I have been using it since the day i bought it, puting other flashlight one side. worth to buy.:twothumbs


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## jzmtl (Jan 6, 2009)

js said:


> carrot,
> 
> Thanks for the info. Kinda makes a person wonder where and when you might run into 96 percent _pure_ methanol! Holy cow! Personally, I'm not worried about that possibility.



The biology lab I used to work at use lab grade pure methanol for a lot of protein work, and bromine too. Good thing I didn't have any titanium watch or such. :duck:


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## McGizmo (Jan 6, 2009)

Titanium tubing is used in industry where liquids and gases of a corrosive nature are a real consideration and must be addressed. There are certain acids and other chemicals which can be corrosive to Ti and obviously the spec on methanol is something engineers need to be aware of. I would guess that cautions as stretching as cleaning the threads with methanol could be brought up for most metals but the relevance needs to be factored in. Most corrosion situations also require a time factor and circumstances held in constant during the time period. I would be curious if Marduke could give an example of a cleaning agent containing methanol that actually would cause any noticeable degradation to Ti in the application of cleaning the threads where presumably after cleaning the threads the cleaner would either evaporate or be removed, the Ti would then quickly oxidize gaining its protective film and likely some lube then applied.

I am aware of a number of advantages to Ti that have significance and relevance to me. These advantages may have no significance or relevance to others. I would say that I am indifferent to bling but actually I have an aversion to it and see it as a disadvantage that needs to be overcome. Ceteris Paribus, I would be reluctant to own a Rollex Watch these days _because_ of the bling associated. For starters, there are more accurate watches at a fraction of the cost and they are lighter by virtue of their Ti cases and bracelets! :nana: I consider my Luminox Titanium a reasonable case in point.

IMHO, the two most significant disadvantages to Ti, relative to use in flashlights, are cost and weight. For small runs, the high cost can be an advantage because the setup involved becomes a small proportion of overall cost and the much greater machine time required per part means a smaller run will take the same amount of time as a much greater run of say aluminum parts. Most shops have minimums and these minimums can be met with much fewer titanium parts than other materials. 

As mentioned above in other posts, there is also the advantage with Ti of no need for adding a protective film as an additional step provided by an additional vendor. In the case of aluminum, it is expected to have an aluminum part processed with anodizing where a protective film of oxide is produced and covers the substrate. Ti oxidizes as soon as it is machined and will replenish its oxide layer anytime it is scared provided air is around to provide the oxygen. Ti has a self healing skin and although the healing may show some scars, it does heal and rather quickly! If cosmetic are important to you, you can easily apply cosmetic surgery to the Ti and let it heal in a surface texture that meets your cosmetic requirements. The good news is that cosmetics in regards to Ti are purely cosmetic and unnecessary beyond the look. Ti can face the bad world naked with no ill effects. I can't make the same claim!


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## KiwiMark (Jan 6, 2009)

My 2c:

The disadvantages of Ti:
- no tailcap lockout
- price
- weight

The advantages of Ti:
- durability and the way it wears

Regardless of any other points raised in this thread I am not convinced that there is more to it than the above points. Aluminium is great in so many ways - light, relatively cheap and easy to have a quick twist of the tailcap to lockout the light for when it is in your pocket. But the obvious disadvantage of Al that is not there with Ti is the way it wears (as others have pointed out). With my old Maglite Solitaire which used to live in my pocket, the anodising (HA2?) wore off. While HA3 is better and less likely to wear or chip, it still can. When the HA3 gets chipped or scratched it looks bad, when the Ti gets scratched it looks good like always.

IMO:
Al is fine for a shelf queen, but for a regularly used torch Ti is better - it just wears so darned well. Expensive? Well after 20 years of carrying a Ti light every day and it still looking nice it may not seem so expensive (but it will be 2028 before I get to that point).

BTW:
Paying more for quality is not necessarily expensive. I have been carrying a Leatherman Wave and a Victorinox Cybertool almost every day for over a decade - they are still in good condition and working well. The Victorinox Cybertool has all the original bits and the pen still writes, despite being over a decade old.


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## js (Jan 6, 2009)

KiwiMark,

A PD pack could easily be made to have a lock-out feature, but the design would have to be altered a bit so that the piston nub were turned into something more like a button, and a separate part, that flared out, and which would catch on the outer body after a certain length of travel. This would mean no candle-mode, recessed piston nub.

But the thing is that the recessed piston nub just isn't going to be activated accidentally--or it is _highly_ unlikely to be accidentally activated. I can throw my LS20 into a bag or a pocket and I never worry about accidental activation. My SF A2, on the other hand, would indeed accidentally activate due to the lack of a surround. I would often turn the tailcap back a turn so that any activation was just of the low beam, but usually I didn't bother, and the low beam would sometimes turn on when I sat down or got up or whatever. No big deal. But this was a consequence of the lack of a flare around the button, which is exactly what the PD pack _does_ have. On the other hand, if you get rid of that, and make a screw-in thumb button, as heckboy did to his McGizmo light, then you could easily add a LOTC feature. But at that point, you would actually _need_ it!!!

I don't need it. And thus don't miss it.


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## brucec (Jan 6, 2009)

I don't see lockout being necessary in the current PD design either.

Regarding Ti vs Al, I think everyone can agree that a good quality flashlight can be made from Al and that just being made of Ti is not a necessary prerequisite nor indicator of quality or performance. However, my belief is that in general, Ti lights are made to a higher (albeit unnecessary) standard and that in and of itself can be appreciated. My automatic mechanical watches are not as accurate as modern quartz or radio watches and they require more maintenance and care. However, they are generally built to a higher standard of machining, assembly, and QC, which I appreciate. I believe I would enjoy my McGizmo lights just the same even if he had chosen a different material such as Al. For me, the workmanship and maker's reputation are more important than the base material which I view as secondary.


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## Woods Walker (Jan 6, 2009)

Some alloys of Ti transfer heat better than stainless steel or even mild steel. Or at least that has been my observation with my tent stove building hobby however this greater heat transfer only seems to happen at temps that would burn the skin right off someone’s hands. Again I am no expert and these observations are based on stove building. I kinda like Ti. I pack Ti cookware and even a spork. It is UL and very far more resistant to rust than even stainless.


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## KiwiMark (Jan 7, 2009)

js said:


> KiwiMark,
> 
> A PD pack could easily be made to have a lock-out feature, but the design would have to be altered a bit


 
Maybe I should have phrased it a bit differently. I was meaning that the anodised threads on most good Al lights meant that it is easy to lock out the light without the designers having even thought of the idea - because the HA is not conductive. Whereas on a Ti light the threads conduct power easily so there is no lockout unless the designers factored one in.

If the design of a Ti light incorporates a lockout feature or you don't consider that feature necessary then there is only 2 disadvantages to the Ti light - weight & price. If you are willing to pay the higher price and a few grams of extra weight is no biggie then buying a Ti light for the superior durability is worth considering.


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## McGizmo (Jan 7, 2009)

KiwiMark,
Your clarification makes sense and I was confused initially in your focus on a lock out tail cap as it seemed way to specific relative to the OP's question.

As a builder and designer of some flashlights, I found I could capitalize on the fact that anodized aluminum was an electrical barrier and I also realized early on that depending on the anodize film for electrical isolation could also be an initiation to disaster in some cases! One obvious case is in depending on anodized threads to remain intact and insure isolation or any other anodized surfaces which are in motion against each other in use or function. My bare Ti lights require designed in air gaps for electrical isolation and obviously should these gaps be bridged by electrically conductive contaminants or dust bunnies, unwanted results can occur. Anodized aluminum can have a design advantage in that provided the anodize film is not compromised, you do have a film of electrical protection. If the film is a surface where wear is a factor and this film is required then the system has the potential of wearing out, plain and simple. I have seen some flashlight designs where this is the case and I do expect that some of these lights will ultimately wear out.

In general, an advantage to titanium is that it is electrically conductive even in its natural, oxidized state. A disadvantage to titanium is that it is electrically conductive. This is probably a simple example of how an advantage has its counter part in disadvantage. A great advantage can be viewed as a great disadvantage from a different perspective. It seems to me that the yin and yang of strengths and weaknesses are present and even abundant in most situations and good designs and compromises take these into consideration!


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## E__WOK (Jan 8, 2009)

Marduke said:


> Methanol (a common component of many cleaning solvents) will cause stress corrosion cracking in titanium.



if methanol will cause metal corrosion, what would it do to the human body?


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## NoFair (Jan 8, 2009)

jzmtl said:


> The biology lab I used to work at use lab grade pure methanol for a lot of protein work, and bromine too. Good thing I didn't have any titanium watch or such. :duck:


 
I have a Ti wedding ring and haven't seen any effect from working with methanol and bromine. I try not to spill to much, especially the bromine:green: 

I generally love ti for most uses, but it is a bit expensive at times..


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## KiwiMark (Jan 8, 2009)

E__WOK said:


> if methanol will cause metal corrosion, what would it do to the human body?



Most commonly ingestion of methanol is known to cause blindness.


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## drmaxx (Jan 8, 2009)

McGizmo said:


> Titanium tubing is used in industry where liquids and gases of a corrosive nature are a real consideration and must be addressed. There are certain acids and other chemicals which can be corrosive to Ti and obviously the spec on methanol is something engineers need to be aware of.


The seweage pipes in Airbus (and probably others as well) are made out of titanium. Weight, durability and the low thermal expansion seems to be the deciding factors. 

Very interesting thread. For quite a while I was wondering why titanium was used for flashlights.


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## DM51 (Jan 8, 2009)

drmaxx said:


> The seweage pipes in Airbus ... are made out of titanium


LOL, imagine the mess if someone poured some methanol-adulterated vodka down the sink during a flight... :sick2:


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## Hitthespot (Jan 8, 2009)

McGizmo said:


> I would be reluctant to own a Rollex Watch these days


 
Watch it there buddy, them there is fighten words..........and it's ROLEX. :nana:

Bill


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## McGizmo (Jan 8, 2009)

Hitthespot,
I stand corrected. The first watch I ever bought was the result of saving up all of my earnings from a summer job and it was a Rolex (Tudor movement) dive watch. At the time, it was the only watch I knew of that could be continually immersed in water and not end up with some flooding and failure. I think I wore that watch for about 12 years (24/7/365) until a seal finally failed and it was my fault because I did not have the watch serviced in any reasonable time frame. For a mechanical time piece, the Rolex is still a wonder. If Rolex were to offer a quartz watch in a Ti case, I know I would be interested but I doubt I could be enticed to pay the anticipated price of admission. I would be more interested still if they were to offer something in Ti that was capable of setting a new standard in achievement and not resting on one they set 50 years ago or so.

I really think the issue of the methanol and stress corrosion is a red herring. Specifically what are the conditions required for this stress corrosion to take place to an extent of significant damage and compromise to something like a flashlight? I could claim that a Ti flashlight can survive in an elevated temperature environment where an aluminum flashlight would be melted. OK, so don't use your aluminum light in 1500 F environment or what ever the melting temp is. Duh!

I have a couple surfskis (sit on top Kayaks) that get taken out on the ocean and rarely are they properly rinsed off or the gear attached properly rinsed and cleaned. They have deck bags that have nylon zipper teeth but lame cast aluminum zippers. The zippers have seized up due to the white oxide growth and corrosion. There are some Ti gate snaps which unfortunately were made with stainless steel spring gates. All of the gates have corroded and broken off. I replaced all of the stainless fasteners with Ti fasteners and there is no evidence of any corrosion or compromise to them. If you are negligent or completely ignore proper maintenance like I am inclined to do, Ti has some proven advantages.  

I don't scuba dive that often and with something as critical as a regulator and knowing my propensity to maintenance avoidance, I purchased an AtomicAquatics Ti regulator a number of years ago. By virtue of its actual design in addition to the use of Ti, this regulator can go extended periods between servicing and my regulator looks as good now as it did when first purchased and this is not due to any special care provided by me. More important, it works as it should! I guess the underlying point is that Ti can be ignored without any detrimental effects.


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## Hitthespot (Jan 8, 2009)

McGizmo said:


> Hitthespot,
> I stand corrected. The first watch I ever bought was the result of saving up all of my earnings from a summer job and it was a Rolex (Tudor movement) dive watch. At the time, it was the only watch I knew of that could be continually immersed in water and not end up with some flooding and failure. I think I wore that watch for about 12 years (24/7/365) until a seal finally failed and it was my fault because I did not have the watch serviced in any reasonable time frame. For a mechanical time piece, the Rolex is still a wonder. If Rolex were to offer a quartz watch in a Ti case, I know I would be interested but I doubt I could be enticed to pay the anticipated price of admission. I would be more interested still if they were to offer something in Ti that was capable of setting a new standard in achievement and not resting on one they set 50 years ago or so.


 
My story is a little different. I loved watches from the time I was a teenager. When I got my first real job, many of the engineers and high powered reps came in with Rolex's on. Always way out of my reach financially it seemed a blue ribbon goal I would never achieve. Every year when the kids and wife, parents would ask me what I wanted for christmas I would laugh and spell R.O.L.E.X. Every year it was just expected from everyone to hear me spell Rolex and everyone laughed. About 6 years ago my wife bought me a Rolex Submariner two tone (SS / Gold ) for Christmas. I was so moved I believed a tear was seen. The watch has not left my wrist, I sleep, eat, and shower in it. I know there are better watches (and I know you know I was just kidding you) but for some reason Rolex owners are more passionate about their watches than I've ever seen a flashaholic over a light. This watch obviously means a lot to me and at todays approx $7000.00 price tag, I could never afford another one.

The only other thing I really now hope to own that is considered a _little_ on the pricey side is a McGizmo!


On topic: I always thought the 904L Stainless Steel that Rolex used was almost as good as Titanium for corrosion and acid resistance?

God Bless

Bill


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## GreyShark (Jan 8, 2009)

If you're worried about methanol on titanium you should also fear bleach or chlorine on aluminum. Not only will it eat aluminum but it also produces a toxic gas.


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## StarHalo (Jan 8, 2009)

I'd rather have the McGizmo than the Rolex.



GreyShark said:


> If you're worried about methanol on titanium you should also fear bleach or chlorine on aluminum. Not only will it eat aluminum but it also produces a toxic gas.



The flashaholic way of viewing this is "What kind of pretty/unique finish can I give my Al light using bleach or chlorine.."


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## GreyShark (Jan 8, 2009)

Is the moth eaten look in this season?


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## AA6TZ (Jan 9, 2009)

Hitthespot said:


> My story is a little different. I loved watches from the time I was a teenager.
> 
> God Bless
> 
> Bill


 
*Bill* - I, too, share your passion for watches. Sure love the looks of your *Submariner* !!! :thumbsup:

As early as the mid-50's (when I was just a kid), Rolex wristwatches graced the pages of what seemed every issue of _National Geographic,_ a magazine my parents faithfully subscribed to since it first hit the newsstands. I was initially drawn to Rolex's famously stellar _looks_, but then, after having read their glorious history (and premise), I became hooked and _had_ to own one "some day."

That fortunate day came much later (in 1985) when I purchased *this* "superlative" D) model, new from Don Laviano, Master Watchmaker/Jeweler located in New York City. I do believe that if I were to wear that gawdy thing today in my old stomping grounds (Los Angeles), the odds are high I'd get my wrist *Sawzalled*-off by some street thug who "needed" the ol' Rolex more than I. 

We Flashaholics appear to share a myriad of similar, non-flashlight related interests (e.g., guns, knives, audio, home theater, photography, etc., etc.) and derive mucho enjoyment from fine watches, in particular. Perhaps if we, during our passionate earlier years of collecting, had a robust enthusiasm for, say, the fine art of _offset printing_ . . . we could have "bailed ourselves out" of the certain astronomical debt we'd have incurred when our entrepreneurial buying habits (far) exceeded the economic restrictions sanctioned by our less-than-filled-to-capacity wallets. I suppose it's _still_ not too late to pick-up a used *Heidelberg* . . .  :devil:

Happily...and unlike several of the aforementioned hobbies/interests, _Flashaholicism_ doesn't require we break the bank in order to actively participate in virtually every facet of high-end illumination! 

Cheers! :twothumbs

-Clive


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