# Ok now I understand what all the incan fuss is about.



## Seiko (Apr 8, 2009)

Before this week my only exposure to incans were crappy stock mags and surefire products (p60 and e series) So I decided to do a 5761 build on a 2c mag.

After the first night at work I'm not ready to put my LED's away but darn near. A local unit was chasing a guy that bailed out into a large expanse of desert, I was nearby so went to help go look for the guy. The direct quote from the local departments air unit. "Hes 20 yards to the left of the officer with the spotlight" Mind you there are 10 or so officers out in this field, and everyone knew who he was talking about LOL. Me with my little 2c mag.

I am simply in amazed at what I have been missing. Almost literally turning my nose up at incans all these years. So thanks CPF... or maybe not, my wallet is going to loose some weight because of this!


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## RyanA (Apr 8, 2009)

Yep, now we've got that sort of power in g2 and g3 sizes.:naughty: Runtime may differ though.


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## Benson (Apr 8, 2009)

Yeah, I've got a 2C Mag61, too -- awesome little light. What battery setup are you using in that? Mine's Li-ion, uses a custom tailspring to take 2x18650, 2x25500, or 2x26500 (when AW gets them out)...

Of course, giving up on LEDs would be going a little far -- there's multi-XRE Mags that'll match a Mag61 for everything except throw, and thrash it for runtime. And my P7 Mag is almost as good as my Mag61, IMHO even better for close-in work, with its broad, flat hotspot. But there's _definitely_ room for hotwires in any flashaholic's collection. Welcome aboard!

(And hadn't you better update your profile?)


About Seiko said:


> Favorite incandescent light
> ewwww incans.....


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## Seiko (Apr 8, 2009)

RyanA said:


> Yep, now we've got that sort of power in g2 and g3 sizes.:naughty: Runtime may differ though.


Actually.... I have a fivemega P60 size drop in with a 1111 in it. Just waiting for my glass to show up so I can use it!


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## Seiko (Apr 8, 2009)

Benson said:


> Yeah, I've got a 2C Mag61, too -- awesome little light. What battery setup are you using in that? Mine's Li-ion, uses a custom tailspring to take 2x18650, 2x25500, or 2x26500 (when AW gets them out)...
> 
> (And hadn't you better update your profile?)



Right now for batteries Im using 2x AW 18650 black ones, with downloads c ring kit. Waiting for my AW IMR 18650's to show up in the mail. I will make the move over to the lith ion c sized when they come out again.

I have a 2c with a p7 in it with the identical battery set up. So far I like the 5761 better, could be because it is the new toy, and im not being objective. There is no comparison in run time.... Im going to use the 61 for a week, and see how it holds up, then do a serious comparison to decide what will be the "big" light for work, and what will be the night stand light.

Ill never give up my milky room sweeper It will be my duty light till something comes along that will beat the p7 in a e1e. (dont think that will be too soon)

Yeah that profile needs to be changed!


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## ampdude (Apr 8, 2009)

I'm seriously considering the 3C 1185 setup, just need a decent charger first.


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## divine (Apr 8, 2009)

Great story. 

Might want to carry a LED as backup in case you drop the incan.


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## ampdude (Apr 8, 2009)

divine said:


> Great story.
> 
> Might want to carry a LED as backup in case you drop the incan.



I carry a spare lamp assembly when I use my G2, I also use a lanyard.


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## Jackal-Head (Apr 10, 2009)

Seiko said:


> I am simply in amazed at what I have been missing. Almost literally turning my nose up at incans all these years. So thanks CPF... or maybe not, my wallet is going to loose some weight because of this!



Fair enough, there are some bright incandescent lights and they're comparatively affordable. Let's not forget that incandescent lights have some noticable weaknesses, though. :devil:


First and foremost: They simply need too much power, requiring large batteries or suffering from short runtimes
Most are unregulated (including Maglite), which means the rated brightness is only true for fresh batteries and rapidly decreases especially for alkaline batteries. (A Maglite 3D, for instance, is rated at 10-11 hours runtime, but will drop to 50% brightness after just one hour!)
They're better at delivering extreme brightness than LEDs, but there are other technologies that are better than both (e.g. HID).
Limited lifetime means, in the long term, they're not as cheap as it seems at first. E.g. the 5761 has a rated average lifetime of a measly 100 hours. Osram Ostar is a 1120 lumens LED costing ten times as much. So if the flashlight is used for more than 1000 hours, the LED will be cheaper. Furthermore, you get the benefit of 6500K color temperature from hour one as well as reduced power uptake.
Color temperature is way too low for my taste. Building an incandescent light with the same color temperature as the sun is not feasible, however, as it would have to be as hot as the surface of the sun.


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## Phaserburn (Apr 10, 2009)

An easy to do and yet under the radar setup:

WF-500 (got mine for $25; very good build quality), LF bulb (around $18, IIRC), UCL (optional; around 6?). Using 2x18650s (regular AWs), this light screams. Great beam, throw is very good. Its around a 3A draw, so it is equal to many of the WA bulbs. If you already have the cells, this setup is under 50, and it's a really nice one.


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## Benson (Apr 10, 2009)

Jackal-Head said:


> Limited lifetime means, in the long term, they're not as cheap as it seems at first. E.g. the 5761 has a rated average lifetime of a measly 100 hours. Osram Ostar is a 1120 lumens LED costing ten times as much. So if the flashlight is used for more than 1000 hours, the LED will be cheaper. Furthermore, you get the benefit of 6500K color temperature from hour one as well as reduced power uptake.


Unless you run your 5761 at the rated 6V, you don't get the rated 100h. More like 5-10h, IIRC.

While LEDs are king for 500lm and less, and HID is clearly the way to go for spotlights, there's still use for the inefficient hotwires -- when you need a compact high-output light, an HID ballast simply doesn't fit (yet). The 2C Mag and the 3xIMR16340 rigs are among the lowest-end practical options in this range, and it goes up to at least 3D Mags before the 24 and 35W HIDs are unambiguously superior.

Now with a few more years of work on scaling HIDs down and LEDs up, this niche may be eroded away to where hotwires are only toys (if very nice and affordable toys ), but for now they are the most practical option for certain uses.


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## 325addict (Apr 10, 2009)

@ Jackal-head:

you wrote: "Furthermore, you get the benefit of 6500K color temperature".

To me, this is the biggest DIS-advantage to LEDs. That angry, blueish-white color that is completely useless in dark & wet woods.... color rendition is ZERO, everything seems like a black&white world.... you very quickly grab an incan here.

The "unregulated" problem can largely be forgotten when you don't use alkalines. Use NiMH or Li-ion instead, these batteries will sustain their voltage for 90% of the runtime pretty well.

Although I'm not a real fan of LED-lights, I just bought a Wolf-Eyes with an MCE-LED from the German eBay-site. Let's see if that 500+ Lumens it seems to give blasts away my pre-occupied mind 

Until now, I'm totally an incan-guy. I take all the disadvantages, just to enjoy that ONE advantage: the color of the light....
Only yesterday I realized (again) what a great light the Wolf Eyes M90 rattlesnake is.... servicing a large mixing console in an OB-van is hard to do without the right light :green:
I use the 9V lamp and two unprotected 18650s in it. 

Timmo.


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## Patriot (Apr 11, 2009)

Jackal-Head said:


> First and foremost: They simply need too much power, requiring large batteries or suffering from short runtimes
> Most are unregulated (including Maglite), which means the rated brightness is only true for fresh batteries and rapidly decreases especially for alkaline batteries. (A Maglite 3D, for instance, is rated at 10-11 hours runtime, but will drop to 50% brightness after just one hour!)
> They're better at delivering extreme brightness than LEDs, but there are other technologies that are better than both (e.g. HID).
> Limited lifetime means, in the long term, they're not as cheap as it seems at first. E.g. the 5761 has a rated average lifetime of a measly 100 hours. Osram Ostar is a 1120 lumens LED costing ten times as much. So if the flashlight is used for more than 1000 hours, the LED will be cheaper. Furthermore, you get the benefit of 6500K color temperature from hour one as well as reduced power uptake.
> Color temperature is way too low for my taste. Building an incandescent light with the same color temperature as the sun is not feasible, however, as it would have to be as hot as the surface of the sun.




LED, Incan, HID, Short-arc, I love them all. 

Regarding your first point, that only matters when long run-time is a factor. Many or even most of the times I use a light run-time is not a factor. When it is a use a more efficient format.

Most of us enthusiast have long ago moved away from alkalines. I'm running almost everything on li-ion now so I don't see the second bullet point as a real problem either. 

The problem with most HID's is size. The lower wattage HID's are usually smaller but less efficient with regards to lumens per watt. To have a 25-35W HID that runs for an hour or more requires a sizable battery and sometimes I just don't need 2000..3000...5000 lumens to accomplish what I'm doing. Also there is the issue of warm up time with HID that isn't there with Incan and LED. 

Normally I'm not personally running my incans for many hundreds of hours so the bulb issue isn't a problem for me. It kind of ties in to the first point since I'm just not running the incans for hours at a time.

The color temperature is the strongest point of the incan which really sets it apart from the 6000K range LEDs. Obviously warmer LED's are more readily available but they still lack the wide color spectrum of the incan and the appearance really is different. A nice white incan is always just very soothing on the eyes and gives me a comfortable feeling especially when I'm out in the woods at night. I much prefer warm incans and HID's above any of the LED's I own since objects seem to take on a very 3D appearance instead of the flat gray blue than many LED's provide. This is especially noticalbe on the forest floor where all the rocks, pine cones and needles seem to take on the same hue even with a nice Q5 although the effect is somewhat tamed. In any case I would have to say that 6500K is just terrible imo...so at no time would that ever be a "plus" for me.


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## Jackal-Head (Apr 13, 2009)

325addict said:


> To me, this is the biggest DIS-advantage to LEDs. That angry, blueish-white color that is completely useless in dark & wet woods.... color rendition is ZERO, everything seems like a black&white world.... you very quickly grab an incan here.



Many cheap standard LEDs produce such a color (as observed when shone upon a surface that appears white in daylight), but quality high-powered LEDs do not. Also, they will render red and orange with high saturation but without ridiculously exaggerating the saturation like incandescent lights do.



325addict said:


> The "unregulated" problem can largely be forgotten when you don't use alkalines. Use NiMH or Li-ion instead, these batteries will sustain their voltage for 90% of the runtime pretty well.



Unregulated incandescent lights will not even come close to their full brightness on NiMH batteries though, so a 200lm unregulated light may be dimmer than a 120lm regulated light. Incand efficiency decreases at lower levels (lower current = lower temperature = less lumens per Watt as visible output decreases overproportionally compared to the power uptake), thus pronouncing the effect (OTOH you do get higher lamp lifetime as it's the temperature that kills it). LEDs are _more_ efficient at lower levels, so lack of regulation is not as easily noticeable for LED lamps.



325addict said:


> Although I'm not a real fan of LED-lights, I just bought a Wolf-Eyes with an MCE-LED from the German eBay-site. Let's see if that 500+ Lumens it seems to give blasts away my pre-occupied mind



Even if it won't change your preferences, I'm pretty sure it will give you a new point of view about LEDs.


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## Jackal-Head (Apr 13, 2009)

Patriot said:


> (snip)
> 
> Normally I'm not personally running my incans for many hundreds of hours so the bulb issue isn't a problem for me. It kind of ties in to the first point since I'm just not running the incans for hours at a time.
> 
> The color temperature is the strongest point of the incan which really sets it apart from the 6000K range LEDs. Obviously warmer LED's are more readily available but they still lack the wide color spectrum of the incan and the appearance really is different. A nice white incan is always just very soothing on the eyes and gives me a comfortable feeling especially when I'm out in the woods at night. I much prefer warm incans and HID's above any of the LED's I own since objects seem to take on a very 3D appearance instead of the flat gray blue than many LED's provide. This is especially noticalbe on the forest floor where all the rocks, pine cones and needles seem to take on the same hue even with a nice Q5 although the effect is somewhat tamed. In any case I would have to say that 6500K is just terrible imo...so at no time would that ever be a "plus" for me.



Fair enough, if you don't use your torches much, then runtime and longevity are less important, and purchase price is more relevant with respect to the TCO (total cost of ownership). The 500 to let's say 1500lm gap _is_ already being closed by LED torches, however they generally cost well over a hundred dollars.

About the light color... de gustibus non est disputandum but I highly prefer the color rendition of neutral white LEDs over incand because it's much closer to daylight. This is sort of ironic because, unlike the sun, LEDs do not produce blackbody radiation, but as I said before, making an incandescent torch with the color of sunlight (actually 5700K or so I hear) is presently technically infeasible. Anyway, light bulbs render whites with a strong orange or yellow tint, they exaggerate the saturation and brightness of red and orange at the expense of green and blue. It can be very hard to tell dark green from dark blue from anthracite in their light. A high-quality neutral white LED at the same lumens will on the other hand give me a pretty accurate idea of the color of an object in daylight.

Here's a video that shows how superior the new Fenix TK40 drool is over the PD30 not only in brightness but also color rendition of vegetation. :wow: Remember to check the HQ option if you have broadband.


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## 325addict (Apr 13, 2009)

@ Jackal-head: 
my experiences on color rendition are based upon Q5 LEDs. I tried 8 different flashlights in the woods, among them was a P1D. This was, IMHO, terrible.

The best was a Wolf Eyes M90 Rattlesnake, equipped with two 18650s.

My boss bought a neutral white Fenix TK20, and this one was, frankly said, disappointing in color. My first impression was: "just as white as my SureFire L1!"
I had to compare them side by side to tell the difference. Glad my boss bought one before I did... I won't buy it!

I'm curious what the Wolf Eyes will bring... I guess, the light will be more white/blue than the TK20, in that case.... it will be fired once, then put back in its box and forgotten.... then, I'd better take an M300 or 9AN Commander (with the two lamps) instead...

If the Wolf Eyes with MCE-LED doesn't convince me, then it will be the last LED-light I'll buy for a while... until the UB3 Invictus is available, and maybe an E1L Outdoorsman in between. On the other hand, there are more than 10 Incans I would like to buy instantly....

Furthermore, I noticed that in Q5-light it is really hard to tell the difference between dark green and brown.... leafs of vegetation and trees (the wooden part of them) all have the same dark, unreal color. Just like watching a black & white TV! With an incan, you can see the difference between these colors INSTANTLY.


Timmo.


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## JJV (Apr 13, 2009)

Don't want to start a fight here but couldn't it be considered trolling to come in and tout LED superiority in the Incan forum? I'm impressed with how everyone has kept it civil but haven't we been down this road a million times over?


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## DM51 (Apr 13, 2009)

I was beginning to think exactly the same thing...


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## Seiko (Apr 13, 2009)

JJV said:


> Don't want to start a fight here but couldn't it be considered trolling to come in and tout LED superiority in the Incan forum? I'm impressed with how everyone has kept it civil but haven't we been down this road a million times over?



Couldn't say it better myself.


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## 325addict (Apr 13, 2009)

Well, I don't think exactly so. Jackal-head is pointing out some very interesting, not-to-be-overseen advantages of LEDs in general. He is at least 100% right when he says, that LEDs don't suffer too much from lesser current when compared to incans. We all know, that with a 50% cut in current, an incan will barely give any light (if so), LEDs will still have OVER 50% of the light compared to the 100% current....

On the other hand, you are right, he is in the "hole of the Lion" as we say in the Netherlands 

This may be the incan part of the forum, but some comparison is, I think, not always wrong, in particular not, when someone is pointing out this kind of technical wisdom from his side. I can only appreciate that, I happened to know this already, but if I hadn't known it, this would have been an eye-opener for me indeed. 

@DM51: if I'm wrong here, and I should stay more to the incans without comparison to LEDs, I would be glad you tell me so. I am still rather new to the forum, sometimes I make mistakes, but I learn from these mistakes. Not so long ago, I posted a reply to a sales thread in CPF marketplace, that for $ 7,50 more you could buy a completely new surefire E1L, so I didn't see the point of buying it second hand for that price.... OOWWW how wrong this was!!! I'll NEVER, EVER do this again, as it is a severe infringement of the rules here....


Timmo.


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## Icebreak (Apr 13, 2009)

Seiko -

Pretty cool story, man. Good visuals. Stories of incan appreciation erupt here with some frequency. I like incan light for outdoor use. It's nice indoors too.



Icebreak said:


> An incandescent light can be your best friend…






Icebreak said:


> Here is an object's image that seems to benefit from incandescent lighting. For some, incandescent light aids in depth perception.






Icebreak said:


> The intentional and strategic use of incandescent light may serve to employ its plethora of wavelengths to reveal intrinsic aspects of an object that make viewing said object's image an almost titillating sensory experience.






Icebreak said:


> During the day the sky changes its light output in intensity, tint and spectra. Right now there is an intense blue sky blowing light into the north side of my home. On the southern side of my home there is intense direct sunlight blowing in. It's a more yellow light. Later today the sun will get low and the tint will shift to the red/amber side. Before dusk there is some “magic hour” photographers treasure. Even more amber.
> 
> It’s a beautiful world we have to live in. No reason to limit the kind of light we use. Nature doesn’t. So, try to forgive me if at night I prefer the stunning effect incandescent light has on all the beautiful things in this world as it baths them in a smorgasbord of delicious color.


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## DM51 (Apr 13, 2009)

325addict said:


> Jackal-head is pointing out some very interesting, not-to-be-overseen advantages of LEDs in general… This may be the incan part of the forum, but some comparison is, I think, not always wrong… if I'm wrong here, and I should stay more to the incans without comparison to LEDs, I would be glad you tell me so.


You are perfectly entitled to express your opinion, especially when you do so in a tactful and non-confrontational way as you have done. After all, opinions are precisely what we are dealing with here. 

Or maybe we should call them perceptions? Let’s isolate just 2 quite important comments from Jackal-Head’s posts: 



Jackal-Head said:


> Color temperature is way too low for *my taste*


​


Jackal-Head said:


> *I highly prefer* the color rendition of neutral white LEDs over incand


Those are his opinions/perceptions. They are self-evidently personal ones – he uses the words “I” and “my”. Other members should respect his views, even if they disagree. 

We then need to consider whether or not it is proper for an advocate for LED lighting to come here to the Incandescent section and post his views in a thread like this one. Again, I think this should be possible, within reason. 

However, this is where members need to be very careful. A carefully-worded, courteous and thoughtful opinion that dissents from the majority view should not be considered out of place; but it is possible that the dissent can be overdone and become a nuisance. Among other things, it could be considered off topic, and if it causes disruption, trolling.

That is why I said in my earlier post above that I was _beginning_ to think about it being trolling. Again in my opinion, it isn’t – _yet_. But I think the thread has now absorbed sufficient dissent, so I would ask Jackal-Head to take that into account, and voluntarily refrain from any more posts here along those lines. 

This post is itself off-topic, and I apologise for that; but I hope it has nevertheless been helpful. 

Now back to the topic...


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## [email protected] (Apr 13, 2009)

Phaserburn said:


> An easy to do and yet under the radar setup:
> 
> WF-500 (got mine for $25; very good build quality), LF bulb (around $18, IIRC), UCL (optional; around 6?). Using 2x18650s (regular AWs), this light screams. Great beam, throw is very good. Its around a 3A draw, so it is equal to many of the WA bulbs. If you already have the cells, this setup is under 50, and it's a really nice one.



Sorry dm51 not quite done with the offtopicness. Which lf bulb?


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## Outdoors Fanatic (Apr 13, 2009)

[email protected] said:


> Sorry dm51 not quite done with the offtopicness. Which lf bulb?


*Lumens Factory HO-R5.*

http://www.lumensfactory.com/product_detail.php?id=56


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## 325addict (Apr 14, 2009)

@ DM51: everything clear 

So let's get back on topic!

@ all others: does anybody know how this extremely bright LF lamp assembly compares to a stock Wolf Eyes M300? This Wolf Eyes is still very tempting to me, but is "only" about 400 Lumens according to Wolf Eyes. But, as we all know, the WAY a manufacturer measures Lumens is not always the same....


Timmo.


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## DM51 (Apr 15, 2009)

3 off-topic posts deleted.


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## StandardBattery (Apr 15, 2009)

Seiko said:


> *....* So I decided to do a 5761 build on a 2c mag.
> 
> *....* direct quote from the local departments air unit. *"Hes 20 yards to the left of the officer with the spotlight"* *....*


 
Awesome story!


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## MichaelW (Apr 15, 2009)

I wonder if his nickname is now Mr. Spotlight? [or spotty]

If you could be anywhere near the illumination levels of the sun, then a higher white point of neutral-white or cool-white could be advantageous.
otherwise the cool-white (or as I like to call them, blue) are just annoying-see Kruithof Curve
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/70/Kruithof_curve.svg

I wonder how much of a performance hit the new EagleTac M2X would take if it were offered in warm-white (say if you want to use it almost exclusively outside)
cool: 800-360-150-40
neutral: 665-300-120-33

warm: ? 500-225-90-25 (Take that Surefire M6!)
http://flashlightconnection.com/Eag...ac-M2-amp-M2X/EagleTac-M2X-COOL-Tint-p84.html
http://flashlightconnection.com/Eag...ac-M2-amp-M2X/EagleTac-M2X-WARM-Tint-p85.html


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## KiwiMark (Apr 16, 2009)

I always find it funny when people start talking incan vs LED - because I never get them to fight each other. I have LED lights for long run time, low modes, small size, etc. I have incan lights for strong output, better colour, fire lighting, etc.

I will soon have my 180+ watt, 6000+ Lumen Mag4D running, it should be fun! (Osram 64458 bulb, AW Soft start driver, 5 x AW 26500 IMR cells, Aluminium reflector, borofloat lens) I don't see any LED lights around that can compete with that (just like I can't find an incan that can compete with my L0D for brightness, runtime & size all at once).


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## Benson (Apr 16, 2009)

MichaelW said:


> I wonder if his nickname is now Mr. Spotlight? [or spotty]
> 
> If you could be anywhere near the illumination levels of the sun, then a higher white point of neutral-white or cool-white could be advantageous.
> otherwise the cool-white (or as I like to call them, blue) are just annoying-see Kruithof Curve
> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/70/Kruithof_curve.svg



Ah, that explains why my MagP7 looks great anywhere inside 10 feet... 

FWIW, I don't find high color temperature annoying until it's well outside the cool side of that curve; green and purple tints annoy me much easier. (Of course, incans are essentially immune to those.) But basically, I consider _any_ issue of color temperature or tint a matter of taste, and CRI (or other measurements of full-spectrumness) the only objective deficiencies. Showing that a statistical preference for warmer dim lighting and cooler bright lighting exists in a population who've grown up and lived their lives under warm, dim, artificial light and cool, bright daylight doesn't convince me that following that trend is necessarily better in any objective sense. I guess we'll have to wait till we have some people who've grown up on a space station, or maybe a generational transport, to find that out.


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## 325addict (Apr 18, 2009)

No one to have any experience on the comparison between a Wolf Eyes M300 and a Rattlesnake with the 700 Lumen Lumens Factory Lamp Assembly?

I would like to know which one is brighter, has the better throw, has more flood etc etc....

Or... did I better start a new thread on this, DM51??


Timmo.


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## DM51 (Apr 18, 2009)

325addict said:


> No one to have any experience on the comparison between a Wolf Eyes M300 and a Rattlesnake with the 700 Lumen Lumens Factory Lamp Assembly?
> 
> I would like to know which one is brighter, has the better throw, has more flood etc etc....
> 
> Or... did I better start a new thread on this, DM51??


LOL - Wolf-Eyes Rattlesnake M90-13V Rechargeable vs Wolfeyes lion m300


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## LuxLuthor (Apr 18, 2009)

Icebreak, God bless you for bringing Eva back. We can never have too much of her "wisdom."


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## 325addict (Apr 18, 2009)

Thank you very much, DM51! This is exactly what I was looking for, and the "wall of light that lights up a whole house" seems to be a very good point of the M300.... So I want one :green:

Timmo.


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## Jackal-Head (Apr 19, 2009)

JJV said:


> Don't want to start a fight here but couldn't it be considered trolling to come in and tout LED superiority in the Incan forum?



Trolling comes from trawling and means intentionally fishing for aggravated responses. In this sense I plead not guilty. The subject of the original post appeared to me to invite a discussion of how the "incan fuss" relates to the LED fuss, HID fuss, CCFL fuss, combustion fuss or what have you. In other words, a comparison of incandescent lamps to other technologies.

Nonetheless I want to apologize for the upset my posts have caused and I don't intend to continue the discussion. Everything else would be  anyway.


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## DM51 (Apr 19, 2009)

Jackal-Head said:


> I plead not guilty.


Plea fully accepted - thanks for your post.


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## Jackal-Head (Apr 19, 2009)

(deleted)


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## Jackal-Head (Apr 19, 2009)

(deleted)


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## DM51 (Apr 19, 2009)

Jackal-Head said:


> I want to apologize for the upset my posts have caused and *I don't intend to continue the discussion*.


I think you have made your point and it is now time for you to discontinue here, as you yourself acknowledge. 

As I said earlier, in post #22 above:



DM51 said:


> A carefully-worded, courteous and thoughtful opinion that dissents from the majority view should not be considered out of place; but *it is possible that the dissent can be overdone and become a nuisance*.


If you want to continue on these lines, please start another thread elsewhere about it, or find an existing one. This one will now need to stay on topic - incan only.


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## 325addict (Apr 20, 2009)

Yes, I've definitely set my mind onto the M300. As I started to be a _real_ flashaholic, I was impressed already by this mighty light, now I know what kind of light-pattern it has even more so.
Due to the fact I can get many (unprotected) 18650s for free, this lamp is even more attractive to me. Just like that M90 Rattlesnake...

I yesterday missed an M300 on eBay.de because it was just getting too expensive. For a little more, I can buy a new one....

So maybe I just have to buy a new one, I hope to add it to my collection soon. But I have the same hope with the E1L, the E1e, a Boxer, a..... well, too many fine lights to choose from lovecpf

Timmo.


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## Icebreak (Apr 21, 2009)

No doubt, LuxLuthor. And sometimes I think Eva renders the best explanation, yet still for some, whoosh, it's like a low altitude jet stream coming through.


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## LuxLuthor (Apr 21, 2009)

Icebreak said:


> No doubt, LuxLuthor. And sometimes I think Eva renders the best explanation, yet still for some, whoosh, it's like a low altitude jet stream coming through.



Well I don't end up reading much after seeing her. I'm teleported away into a fantasy la-la land. 
I'm like: :wave: :welcome:   :devil: :kiss:  

Then I wake up:  :hairpull:


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## Icebreak (Apr 22, 2009)

:laughing:


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## KiwiMark (Apr 22, 2009)

I now have close to 6000 Lumen with a 64458 running from five IMR 26500 cells in my Mag4D. Newspaper will flame within a couple of seconds - try that from a hand held LED torch. Of course this is not as impressive as the girl, but still, another plus for incans.


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## Seiko (Apr 22, 2009)

KiwiMark said:


> I now have close to 6000 Lumen with a 64458 running from five IMR 26500 cells in my Mag4D. Newspaper will flame within a couple of seconds - try that from a hand held LED torch. Of course this is not as impressive as the girl, but still, another plus for incans.



The 6000 lumen is a big plus in the incan vs led war. 
However the heat..... Its cool a first, then you set your shorts on fire when out walking the dog and hop around like an idiot for all the neighbors to see....:nana:

I cant even begin to imagine what 6k is like. I'm quite happy with my 1k 5761


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## KiwiMark (Apr 23, 2009)

Seiko said:


> The 6000 lumen is a big plus in the incan vs led war.
> However the heat..... Its cool a first, then you set your shorts on fire when out walking the dog and hop around like an idiot for all the neighbors to see....:nana:
> 
> I cant even begin to imagine what 6k is like. I'm quite happy with my 1k 5761



My Mag623 and Mag458 torches are show off items only, not daily use. 

I would probably go with my ROP Low for a task like walking the dog - I get 500-600 Lumen and around 2 hours run time, without too much heat. The beam is nice and the tint is pleasing on the eye. It is also only a Mag 2D which is a pleasing shape/size/weight for a hand held torch. I have LED torches for keyring & pocket carry - the D cell Mag torches I own are a little big to fit into a jeans pocket.


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