# Budget LEAD flashlights...



## KirthGersen (Aug 31, 2012)

Not LED, lead.  Is there any concern that the cheap Chinese budget lights contain lead in the body alloys or other parts? I've ordered some, but only just realized this might be an issue since a lot of metal items coming from China have relatively high levels of lead in them.

The particular lights I've ordered are all covered in paint or anodized finish, but of course this will wear off over time and might still be contaminated. I've ordered a lead test kit to be more sure, but with young kids in the house I'm a little worried, plus home test kits are apparently not 100% accurate on either positives or negatives.

Does anyone know whether cheap flashlights are a lead risk? Thanks for any input.


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## Jerrycobra (Aug 31, 2012)

good question, never thought of this before, i would think anodizing is done on just pure metal, and no lead is involved, as far as i know lead is used on paint of plastic toys


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## LilKevin715 (Aug 31, 2012)

The exterior of the lights would most likely not have any lead. The only parts that would contain lead would be solder joints (tailcap switch, LED module).


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## fishndad (Aug 31, 2012)

i would strongly recommend you dont chew on or swallow your lights just to be safe.:shakehead


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## luceat lux vestra (Aug 31, 2012)

Lead is far to soft to thread and machine into


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## KirthGersen (Aug 31, 2012)

Thanks for the input. I've already got a lead test kit on order, and if I don't report back that will mean that I didn't find lead on the Sipik and similar lights I've ordered. And for good measure I've warned the two-year-old that if he chews on any of my new flashlights, severe neurological deficits may result; his stare in response seemed to indicate that he got the message.


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## fishndad (Aug 31, 2012)

KirthGersen said:


> Thanks for the input. I've already got a lead test kit on order, and if I don't report back that will mean that I didn't find lead on the Sipik and similar lights I've ordered. And for good measure I've warned the two-year-old that if he chews on any of my new flashlights, severe neurological deficits may result; his stare in response seemed to indicate that he got the message.



good 1


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## 127.0.0.1 (Aug 31, 2012)

you can bet that any painted logo, o-ring grease, crappy dye used in anodizing process is suspect

and also you know they don't wash the lights at the factory. however, the real danger is the cell powering the light


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## Empire (Aug 31, 2012)

luceat lux vestra said:


> Lead is far to soft to thread and machine into


No no no, He is talking about lead being in the metal not lead being the metal.


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## fyrstormer (Aug 31, 2012)

Brass often contains a bit of lead because the lead improves the machinability of brass. Brass water fittings are specially treated to leach all the lead out of the surface of the metal prior to leaving the factory. Chances are, brass parts used in flashlights don't get that same treatment.

So...if you have any lights with brass parts, don't suck on 'em.


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## LightCrazy (Sep 3, 2012)

Probably not. If there was any chance of lead, there would be that warning "Caution, the state of California has determined that this product contains lead...". See, I made a funny!! That is a good point. I think I'll try to stop holding the flashlight in my mouth while trying to work with both hands. I guess that is why I have headlamps anyway.


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## fishndad (Sep 4, 2012)

LightCrazy said:


> Probably not. If there was any chance of lead, there would be that warning "Caution, the state of California has determined that this product contains lead...". See, I made a funny!! That is a good point. I think I'll try to stop holding the flashlight in my mouth while trying to work with both hands. I guess that is why I have headlamps anyway.



Apparently you are not aware of the toys out of China that were recalled due to Lead only a year ago.
Those were infant toys. California, failed to protect you there didnt they.
Never assume the chinese manufacturing process gives 1 shite about California or for that matter that Californians are doing there job.


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## fyrstormer (Sep 4, 2012)

LightCrazy said:


> Probably not. If there was any chance of lead, there would be that warning "Caution, the state of California has determined that this product contains lead...". See, I made a funny!! That is a good point. I think I'll try to stop holding the flashlight in my mouth while trying to work with both hands. I guess that is why I have headlamps anyway.


Trying to hold a brass flashlight in your mouth would be repulsive enough without any lead content, just due to the taste of the copper. Maybe the State of California figures your tastebuds will do their work for them on this one.


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## Empire (Sep 5, 2012)

LightCrazy said:


> Probably not. If there was any chance of lead, there would be that warning "Caution, the state of California has determined that this product contains lead...". See, I made a funny!! That is a good point. I think I'll try to stop holding the flashlight in my mouth while trying to work with both hands. I guess that is why I have headlamps anyway.


This product contains chemicals known to the state of California to cause cancer.


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## KirthGersen (Sep 6, 2012)

My first budget lights to arrive were a three-pack of Sipik SK68s in red, blue and green anodized finish. I tested one of them thoroughly with the lead test kit and it was negative, and the swab showed that it was active when used on the lead test patch afterwards. So I am a bit relieved, though I will use the lead test kit on other budget types of ligths I buy too. The kit came with eight swabs for around $20, not too bad to test a new type of light. I'm also happy that I have the lead kit in general, including for some Oriental Trading items bought for an upcoming birthday party.

Sadly, the little one began chewing on the lead test patches while my back was turned. Now he just drools as he sits endlessly in front of "America's Next Top Model" reruns. D'oh!

Many thanks for all the input. I'll add to this thread if I ever find lead contamination in one of my lights.


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## fyrstormer (Sep 8, 2012)

You're really worried about lead, aren't you? All electronics sold in the USA nowadays have to comply with Reduction Of Hazardous Substances regulations, which specifically requires that lead and mercury not be used unless absolutely necessary.

Anyway, unless you eat electronics or rub them on raw skin every day, you're not going to get enough lead to make a noticeable difference in your health. Keep in mind that humanity somehow survived using lead plumbing for centuries.


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## KirthGersen (Sep 8, 2012)

fyrstormer said:


> You're really worried about lead, aren't you? All electronics sold in the USA nowadays have to comply with Reduction Of Hazardous Substances regulations, which specifically requires that lead and mercury not be used unless absolutely necessary.
> 
> Anyway, unless you eat electronics or rub them on raw skin every day, you're not going to get enough lead to make a noticeable difference in your health. Keep in mind that humanity somehow survived using lead plumbing for centuries.


fyrstormer, I'd say that I'm appropriately worried about lead. The fact that items "have to" comply with lead regulations doesn't mean that they do. Lead in even very small doses can have serious neurological effects on a developing brain and nervous system. The fact that humans somehow survived lead plumbing is of course irrelevant. If you're interested in lead effects on children (or adults), I'd suggest learning about the topic before weighing in.


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## Illum (Sep 8, 2012)

I never did figure out whats so toxic about lead. Its a very stable metal, like mercury in its natural state. Had you shallowed it it will probably come out on its own unblemished. Its the vapor of either thats toxic due to its reactivity with tissue. Solid? No worries. Had lead poisoning been prevalent, I don't know how the bloodline of frontiersmen passes down. Leadshot is a popular method to put dinner on the table, they would have had tons of exposure since the day they learned to eat at the table. China has made toys with lead paint on it for generations now, if not for some other purpose such as limiting foreign toy companies from competing against domestic ones I sincerely don't know why in the last ten years or so it became such a big deal. :duh2:
Any type of circuit at some point is going to have lead in it, thats just a simple fact. the components might be RoHS compliant but the traces, the substrate, and the solder, who knows. I'd say until the tin whisker issue is eliminated lead solder will remain with us for a very very long time. If you feel there is the possibility of lead contamination, rinse with soap water. If you suspect its in the paint, wash your hands after using it. We are talking about a tool, not a eating utencil. Would you distrust your dad's california framer if the wedge holding the head on the handle happened to have lead in it? If the hammer can help you get your work done, would it matter if it had lead in it?


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## KirthGersen (Sep 9, 2012)

Illum said:


> I never did figure out whats so toxic about lead... Had lead poisoning been prevalent, I don't know how the bloodline of frontiersmen passes down.


For anyone who wants to find out about the effects of lead poisoning as well as the causes, I suggest a search engine. I'm going to try to state this as simply as possible without coming off in a snotty way, but I don't know if it's possible... The fact that a practice allowed some people throughout history to survive doesn't mean it's safe. The human race has survived hurricanes, earthquakes, tsunamis, the ice age, plagues, world wars including the detonation of nuclear devices, the widespread use of tobacco and asbestos, etc. etc. etc. This simply isn't a helpful way to frame a debate, because there isn't one-- lead isn't safe, and any supposed safety couldn't possibly be proven by the _survival of the human race_.



Illum said:


> I never did figure out whats so toxic about lead. Its a very stable metal, like mercury in its natural state.


An element's stability does not imply a lack of toxicity.



Illum said:


> Its the vapor of either thats toxic due to its reactivity with tissue. Solid? No worries.


If you intend to actually follow up to learn about this topic, you will learn that you're wrong about this too. You might want to google on "lead paint" at some point.



Illum said:


> China has made toys with lead paint on it for generations now, if not for some other purpose such as limiting foreign toy companies from competing against domestic ones I sincerely don't know why in the last ten years or so it became such a big deal. :duh2:


Scientific tests proving the negative effects of lead beyond a doubt.

There's really not much of a debate over lead toxicity; it's toxic and it has proven negative effects, especially on children. The web has so much information on the topic that I won't discuss this further, sorry. It's sort of like debating evolution with someone who disbelieves in it on a religious basis (of course there is no scientific one). People are entitled to their beliefs and everyone should respect that, but at some point a lack of a shared foundation of knowledge and understanding limits the usefulness of a discussion.

Let's get back to talking about flashlights, not debating the indisputable. If I find a flashlight that's a lead risk, I'll post it here as a useful resource to people that care about such things. Everyone else is free to expose themselves and their family to lead to their heart's desire.


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## fyrstormer (Sep 10, 2012)

Nobody is disputing that lead has a negative effect on your health. Rather, I'm saying that people drank water from lead pipes for centuries and survived, and the amount of lead you're likely to come in contact with nowadays is several orders of magnitude lower than they endured, so your health is extremely unlikely to be affected by it. The chlorine in your tap water and the pesticides in your vegetables are much more likely to have an effect on your health, because you're exposed to them every day; whereas you're exposed to traces of lead in metal tools only rarely if at all.

If you can achieve a zero-lead lifestyle, great, but the benefit to your health will be much less vs. removing other potential toxins from your lifestyle, just because there's almost no lead left in consumer products anyway. It's not a matter of personal belief, it's a matter of spending your finite amount of free time to the greatest possible benefit.

- - -

You're most likely to find soluble lead in flashlights in the solder, if non-RoHS solder was used, or in brass parts. If there's any lead in the anodizing dye, it should be sealed from your skin by virtue of being trapped inside the crystalline structure of the aluminum oxide layer. However, it's not likely that lead would be used in dark anodizing, since lead oxide is white.


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## KirthGersen (Sep 10, 2012)

fyrstormer said:


> Nobody is disputing that lead has a negative effect on your health. *(Read Illum's post yet?)* Rather, I'm saying that people drank water from lead pipes for centuries and survived, and the amount of lead you're likely to come in contact with nowadays is several orders of magnitude lower than they endured, so your health is extremely unlikely to be affected by it.


I've already disposed of that fallacy up above. There's no way to logically get from "Romans survived lead poisoning" to "your health is extremely unlikely to be affected by it". Research shows that even what was previously thought to be a very low level of lead can cause irreversible damage, especially to children. Relating this back to your example of lead pipes, the Romans et al. were not in a position to note depressed intellectual functionining in their children, if they had even been aware of the fact that lead was toxic. Nor does the mere existence of lead regulations make children safe; actually making sure they're not exposed to avoidable lead makes them safe.

But sure, I grant you that I'm not worried (much) about a flashlight actually killing one of my kids; I'm worried more about neurological damage. I'm not some sort of nutcase-- lead does cause such issues, and anyone who's interested should _read up on the subject before attempting to debate it_, instead of winging it based on some half-remembered history lecture about lead products in antiquity.

There have been massive product recalls based on lead in products shipped from China to the U.S., including many toys (google on "2007 China lead recall" or similar terms to find out more). Lead continues to show up in cheap metal products coming out of China, including adulterated silver jewelry. Now again, you can look at each case of a child being poisoned by lead and try to draw distinctions (I'll get you started-- a child wouldn't hold a flashlight against his skin the way a charm bracelet would stay next to the body, etc.) but in the end it's all just a rationalization technique used to arrive at a false result. Lead toxicity, particulary to young children, is so amply shown by research and actual harmful effects and death that it's beyond dispute. 



fyrstormer said:


> The chlorine in your tap water and the pesticides in your vegetables are much more likely to have an effect on your health


Another fallacy-- the fact that other dangers exist doesn't mean that lead toxicity is not a danger that should be avoided. Otherwise I'd note that my children don't smoke and don't run across the highway during rush hour, and call it a day.



fyrstormer said:


> there's almost no lead left in consumer products anyway


That's right. One of the holdout product categories just happens to be cheap metal products coming from China. All I'm doing is making sure of my children's safety, and I don't expect to be handed a ration of **** for it, based on fallacies about old lead pipes and complete guesses/misunderstandings about lead toxicity based on its _stability_, etc.


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## Overclocker (Sep 10, 2012)

just don't ingest or suck on your flashlights or any internals parts and you'll be fine

wash hands before handling food

i'm probably starting to sound like your mom


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## fyrstormer (Sep 10, 2012)

Of course lead should be avoided, to whatever extent is practical. If you have enough spare time to swab everything your kids touch to see if there's lead on them, without neglecting other parental responsibilities such as teaching them good ethics and helping them with homework -- and without neglecting your own personal needs -- then I have to say I want whatever job you've got, because it obviously gives you a lot more spare time than the average parent. If you don't have time to do all that and still relax before going to bed, then it becomes an issue of weighing the cost of time spent vs. the likelihood of any perceivable benefit from each thing you do in the day. I think you'll find, if you widen your search radius a bit, that parents who work themselves to death and aren't around to help their kids though ages 15-25 are pretty likely to lose all the benefits of their hard work, because that's the age bracket when kids first get to make decisions that seriously damage their health in adulthood.

Anyway, since you already know enough about lead to school the rest of the forum on the topic, I look forward to the results of your testing.


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## KirthGersen (Sep 10, 2012)

fyrstormer said:


> Of course lead should be avoided, to whatever extent is practical.


Great! What I'm doing with these cheap metal objects from China, a well-known source of lead-contaminated products, is practical. For each model of cheap Chinese light I buy, it will add approximately one minute of my time and approximately $2.50 in cost. 

I submit that when one deals with a proven source of lead-contaminated products, it may make more sense to determine whether a particular product poses a health risk to one's children than to expose them to an unknown but avoidable risk, on the principle that _some Romans lived despite lead poisoning_.



fyrstormer said:


> If you have enough spare time to swab everything your kids touch to see if there's lead on them


Let's not introduce red herrings on purpose, shall we not? No matter how uncomfortable we may get when our positions become untenable, it doesn't further the conversation to openly twist each other's words and fight straw men. *I don't propose to "swab everything (my) kids touch", just cheap metal objects from China that have a higher than normal chance of containing harmful lead levels.* Check out this link-- note the Proposition 65 warning on this Sipik SK68 clone:
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B006E0QAFY/?tag=cpf0b6-20



fyrstormer said:


> without neglecting other parental responsibilities such as teaching them good ethics and helping them with homework -- and without neglecting your own personal needs -- then I have to say I want whatever job you've got, because it obviously gives you a lot more spare time than the average parent.


Seriously? It takes about a minute to test a suspect item with a typical lead test kit. I assure you that I haven't neglected my parental responsibilities. I have continued to tend to my own personal needs as well; I shower, brush my teeth and everything! 

In fact, all the tests I've run so far on lights (two) have surely taken less than the time you've spent trying to tell me I'm foolish for protecting my children from a known risk to their neurological health and development. Have you been meeting your needs during this time, and the needs of your family?  I do have a good job-- but yours must be pretty damned poor if after working, seeing to your personal needs, and posting here as you urgently need to do, you don't have a spare minute to yourself.

Let's can the idiocy, can we? Can you let this drop? Expose yourself and your family to health risks all you like, and leave me free to draw the line at a different place. Pleeeeeeeeeeease. Let it drop-- you're resorting to sheer silliness now, and it's not only offensive, it makes you look foolish.



fyrstormer said:


> I think you'll find, if you widen your search radius a bit, that parents who work themselves to death and aren't around to help their kids though ages 15-25 are pretty likely to lose all the benefits of their hard work, because that's the age bracket when kids first get to make decisions that seriously damage their health in adulthood.


Well, obviously I'm not working myself to death because I have all this free lead-testing time, eh? I will take the risk of working myself to death with lead testing in the balance. I will just have to take each day as it comes, and assess my health to try to stave off certain health damage from the stressful time spent lead-testing, occasionally when I feel like it on my time off.

Thread crap much?


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## fyrstormer (Sep 11, 2012)

Obviously you're taking my speculation about life-balance personally. That is unfortunate. I wasn't criticising *your* life-balance because I have no information about *your* life to base any criticism on. I was speculating that the benefits of testing for lead in flashlights might be insignificant compared to the benefits of spending that time doing other things. I'm sorry you thought that was a personal attack, but given how important you think the topic is, I suppose I should've expected that response.

However, I find it strange that you opened this thread asking a question, as though you were looking for expertise, when subsequent posts show that you've already done a lot of research on the topic yourself -- possibly more than anyone else on this forum. That behavior suggests you were looking for an opportunity to show off your expertise, by correcting anyone who posted in this thread with your superior knowledge. That sort of thing usually isn't received well, which is perhaps why nobody else is bothering to participate.

Sharing your knowledge is a good thing, but it would've been better to do it honestly, by saying "Hi, I care about Topic X and here's what I know about it; does anyone else have anything to add?", instead of acting like you didn't know anything about Topic X until *after* other people replied.

I'm done here. Have a nice thread.


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## KirthGersen (Sep 12, 2012)

fyrstormer said:


> Obviously you're taking my speculation about life-balance personally.


Yes, of course I'm taking your personal remarks personally. :thumbsup: You obviously have difficulty dealing with it when your inaccuracies are pointed out. That's not my problem, guy.



fyrstormer said:


> However, I find it strange that you opened this thread asking a question, as though you were looking for expertise, when subsequent posts show that you've already done a lot of research on the topic yourself -- possibly more than anyone else on this forum.


No, they don't do anything of the sort. More ridiculousness from you. Look, if you can't stand losing, don't engage in a debate. And certainly don't repeatedly come back for more, based on bad logic regarding the Roman Empire.

I came here asking for input on lead levels in flashlights. Some other people tried to be helpful. You chose to scoff without any basis; suggest that I either am a bad parent or have a huge amount of leisure time on my hands, again without basis; and in general have had your head handed to you on a platter based on your absolute lack of logic and knowledge on the subject of this thread.

If you don't like being rejected, don't troll, pure and simple. If you want to give useful input on a modern-day issue, either base it on pre-existing knowledge of yours, or learn something first to give an opinon based on real relevant information. Don't base it on guesswork and high school history lessons.

Now, hopefully, the extended petulant thread crap by fyrstormer being over, we can return to the thread already in progress.


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## qwertyydude (Sep 16, 2012)

Take a look at it this way. I have been soldering with lead solder for 15 years. I know old school car fabricators who made lead sled hot rods all their lives out of real lead solder. My uncle has been casting his own bullets for 25 years out of lead. None of us are lead poisoned, more specifically they do test for lead when I got out of the Navy since I worked with electronics and solder and lead radiation shields and I had no more lead levels than average. There's been more lead exposure in my life there than you'll encounter ever in your lives with the newer lead regulations and touching a lead contaminated flashlight every now and then is not gonna harm you.

It is true lead will damage nervous systems but really occasional contact won't appreciably affect you. Flashlight use is definitely on the list of very occasional use, same with lead crystal glassware. There's a paranoia out now when people don't understand the actual hazards vs the worst case scenario. Don't eat or lick the lead items on a daily basis and you'll be fine.


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## KirthGersen (Sep 16, 2012)

qwertyydude said:


> touching a lead contaminated flashlight every now and then is not gonna harm you


Wrong. Even what might seem like very tiny amounts to you can cause damage, especially to children. Again, this really isn't up for debate-- opinion vs. scientific and medical verified results is not a contest. It's not paranoia to believe in indisputable facts, anecdotal stories to the contrary. Sorry.


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## qwertyydude (Sep 16, 2012)

I'm not saying lead isn't harmful. I'm saying even having worked with lead far more than the average person, my blood lead levels were no more than average. The reason being is that most people are exposed to environmental lead far more than they are exposed to incidental lead exposures.

You drive a car every day with a lead battery that lead does work its way onto the road in tiny metal dust particles. So long term environmental exposure to lead is unavoidable.

It's a similar argument to shooting game with lead bullets. When they tested blood lead levels of hunters who used lead bullets they did find traces of lead in their blood. Time to worry? No, because what they always fail to mention in those studies is the blood lead levels in those hunters who used lead bullets was on average lower than the mean blood lead levels in the United States. So take a look at that, people who handle lead bullets and eat possibly lead contaminated meats had on average less blood lead levels than the average population.

It's easier to interpret this way, those hunters spend more time in the great outdoors which has lower environmental lead levels than urban cities which is leading to their lower blood lead levels even though they handle lead bullets and lead contaminated guns on a very regular basis. The logical conclusion and one I can apply to my life is incidental lead exposure doesn't raise blood lead levels more than continual environmental lead exposure.

What this implies is not that lead is not damaging but there's only so much lead reduction you can do, short of banning all lead products including the useful ones like batteries, before you get decreasing returns in lead exposure due simply to environmental lead build up which is about as low as you can get already save for pockets in poor areas with houses still painted with lead paint, and yet it is still enough to cause measureable blood lead levels in the mean population.

Basically simply due to widespread low level lead contamination, everyone will have measureable blood lead levels and a lead contaminated flashlight won't introduce any more lead to your system than living in the US 24/7 does. If you're still worried. Move to Antarctica, there's pretty much zero environmental lead levels there. Every other industrialized country will have low level environmental lead contamination due to cars, coal burning power plants, and electronics.


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## Bullzeyebill (Sep 17, 2012)

This thread has turned into a debate, and has reached an impasse. Some posters, including the OP have become passionate about their positions, and are showing disrespect toward each other. The thread has run its course, and will only become more argumentative if continued. I am closing it.

Bill


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