# Candle vs flashlight?



## eebowler (Jun 23, 2006)

I was trying to explain to someone the advantages of LED flashlights and why they cost so much. I asked if she had a flashlight home, she said no. eekI then asked her "so what would you do when electricity goes?" She said "go and get the candles." I was stumped.

The question is this: For an average household, are flashlights really necessary?

CANDLES: Very cheap. Always ready (no batteries to die). Lots of light.

If one does not need to go outside where there is wind/rain or if you don't have a yard (apartment bld) or if you don't really care about what's happening outside, then does one really need a flashlight?

If your argument is safety well, in all the years we have used candles when electricity goes, nothing has happened but then, we are not lacking in the common sense department. :shrug:

What do you guys think? How can I win such an argument?

Thanks.


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## bobisculous (Jun 23, 2006)

I wouldn't want to be caught using a candle to light my walking way, up the stairs or anything like that. If it falls over or out of your hand, you could have a much more serious problem on your hands such as your home burning down. That'd be my main argument. Plus flashlights have much better throw so you can see much further with a single lit up item.

-Cameron


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## Blindspot (Jun 23, 2006)

I’ll assume your question is a serious one though my first reaction was...are you kidding? There are so many angles from which to approach an answer, I don't know where to start, so I will ramble.

Do you really need a flashlight? No. You don't really need a hammer, a fork a flashlight a knife...I suppose you don't really need much, if you don't mind certain potential inconveniences and/or risks.

Is a candle better than a flashlight - um....it is more romantic. It doesn't need any batteries. I can see how many people would feel that they do not need a flashlight, and that having a box of candles on hand would be adequate in the event of a power outage. People survived and thrived for a long time prior to the invention of the flashlight. Oil lamps were all the rage not too long ago.

Realistically, in a modern context, there is no question in my mind that a flashlight is a much more useful and much safer option than an open flame for general lighting purposes, be it emergency or otherwise. Modern flashlights have long runtimes - some will run for days. They can be left on the shelf for years with a fresh set of 123s and operate perfectly when needed. No matches required. No chance of burning down the house. You can move them around easily, take them outside, and, importantly, direct the light by pointing them, not easily replicated with a lone candle.

One can argue the merit of candles and I would not forsake them entirely - they can be very useful in many ways and certainly belong in a survival kit, but if given the choice of a decent flashlight and set of fresh cells vs. a few good candles and a pack of matches, I think the flashlight wins in most circumstances. :candle: :laughing:  :thumbsup:


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## Illum (Jun 23, 2006)

Well safety first, Flashlights don't start house fires!

Well, before I begin collecting flashlights, I collect kerosene lanterns frequently known as hurricane lanterns or miner's lanterns.

so my first flashlight runs 10 hours on a pint of paraffin and outputs 15 candlepower.

Modern flashlights blow me away... if you want runtime, refer back to candlepower


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## fieldops (Jun 23, 2006)

Interesting discussion. You are absolutely right that candles have been used for centuries in lighting. It's not that candles have become less safe, it is that people have. this is due to the fact that we use them for lighting so infrequently these days (outside of ceremonial use). People used to treat candles with respect because they knew what would happen if they didn't. I would use the following talking points:

1. LED lights can be bought inexpensively these days (eg. 5-10$ or so)
2. They are longlived with no bulb expenses in the near future
3. They have no open flame to knock over and burn you out (have a pet?)
4. They can operate in wind effectively
5. They are portable 
6. they do not require a lighting device (eg. match, lighter)
7. They can light areas directionally (sometimes a plus, sometimes not)
8. They take up little space

there are, of course, counter points and some candle plus's

just some ideas.....good luck with your next presentation


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## DonShock (Jun 23, 2006)

I still have a couple oil lamps from my pre-CPF days. When I thought the MagLight was the best "normal" flashlight, it made sense due to the short battery life of a normal incandescent flashlight. For all night lighting of an entire room, or couple of rooms when placed strategically, the oil lamp couldn't be beat. The Maglight was saved for task lighting requiring brighter light.

However, since joining CPF and becoming more educated, they would not likely be my first choice any longer. Some of the low output LED lights I have produce a better quality light and the battery life is long enough to use them as my primary room lighting source. The PR based SMJLEDs seem to be the best balance of usable brightness and good battery life. I have half a dozen handy 2D lights equipped with them so I can lend out a few if needed.

But all that being said, I still keep the oil lamps fueled and handy just in case. And even when they're not needed, sitting out a blackout with a good book lit by nice soft lamplight just seems more relaxing than a using a brighter, admittedly more useful, LED light.


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## Empath (Jun 24, 2006)

eebowler said:


> How can I win such an argument?



Why try to win? The differences between candles and flashlights are obvious. People can decide on their own what they prefer.


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## nerdgineer (Jun 24, 2006)

I think candles definitely have their place, and setting a dozen or 2 short ones aside, with proper holders (like wide, low walled glass containers) is a trivial and sensible precaution. I wouldn't want to walk around with it but it can provide many hours of base light in occupied rooms and maybe bathrooms during long term outages.

Of course you need flashlights (to find the candles, if nothing else) and I doubt I'll ever run of battery power for light in an outage (which we haven't had a good one of in 15 years), but I wouldn't discount candles.


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## ABTOMAT (Jun 24, 2006)

I have no use for candles, but I do like oil lamps and lanterns. Every time the power goes out I fire them up. Although recently I've been using propane mantle lanterns. Cleaner burning and 100x the light.


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## AlexSchira (Jun 24, 2006)

I once had this very argument with my own mother. 

"Candles smell nicer."

...There is truly...no way to argue that flashlights smell better.


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## AuroraLite (Jun 24, 2006)

Alex,

Oooh, let's not go there...before we know it, maybe someone will come out with a new light on BST with good smell. :lolsign: 


Back to the candle vs flashlight, many household might only equipped with sub-par flashlight which consumes batteries quickly with little below average performance. It is natural for them to use candles since the running cost and performance is more acceptable. 

I think as the led and battery technologies improve while costs are going down, more and more people will starting to see and accept led flashlight as a standard household item.


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## WAVE_PARTICLE (Jun 24, 2006)

You can't mod a candle.....

or can you? :thinking: 



WP


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## outofgum (Jun 24, 2006)

In a power outage you have no air conditioning. If you are stuck on a hot, sticky, humid night, without power do you really want to putting more heat into the air?


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## Culhain (Jun 24, 2006)

I love using candles, Dietz lanterns and Aladin lamps during a power outage. If only I had the room, I would also have a wood burning kitchen range. BUT, enjoying the old technology does not prevent me from appreciating the advantages that modern "new fangled" gear provides. During a power outage I miss my microwave and ice maker far more than electric lights.


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## Diesel_Bomber (Jun 24, 2006)

LED vs. fire is a call shot; different for everyone.

Put me firmly with the oil lamp/oil candle folks. I do have a few candles, an extra box of matches, and a couple extra Bic lighters stashed. For as little cost, space, and effort as they take, why not? I'd rather give myself every option I can down the road. Better to have and not need than need and not have.

Cheers. :buddies:


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## mobile1 (Jun 24, 2006)

with candles you can see how much runtime you have left


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## Lit Up (Jun 24, 2006)

WAVE_PARTICLE said:


> You can't mod a candle.....
> 
> or can you? :thinking:
> 
> ...



Yeah, but only in short bursts with a can of hairspray or something similar. It's not safe, no. But it can be done. :laughing:

As far as candles vs LED light: Buy em both. However, I'd hate to awake to a noise or even make a bathroom run waking up in the pitch dark fumbling for matches and guessing where the candle is. I wouldn't sleep with them lit.


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## GregWormald (Jun 24, 2006)

It is cold, wet, and windy. I've just dropped the keys and probably kicked them under the car.
Candle????????


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## Dustin Liu (Jun 24, 2006)

Flashlight>Candle


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## Lit Up (Jun 24, 2006)

mobile1 said:


> with candles you can see how much runtime you have left



Rayovac achieved that with a 5 dollar industrial light. 
Given all the programmable flashlights coming, you'll probably see that function with an LED screen with battery meter before too long. Will probably play MP3's and have a voice recorder too. Powered by the LinuxLumens distro. :laughing:

Coming soon....color screen


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## Handlobraesing (Jun 24, 2006)

I don't think I own a single candle.


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## Illum (Jun 24, 2006)

AlexSchira said:


> I once had this very argument with my own mother.
> 
> "Candles smell nicer."
> 
> ...There is truly...no way to argue that flashlights smell better.



:candle::huh2::sweat:  :drunk:
Smell better? you can't win over that logic, thatsfor sure.

Some of us like the smell of cleaners we spray on our HA III lights you know.. :hint:



mobile1 said:


> Originally Posted by *WAVE_PARTICLE*
> _You can't mod a candle.....
> 
> or can you? :thinking:
> ...



ehh..cosmetics only lol :candle:
ad say add optics to the works than you'd be improving it, but I don't know how unless you prefer to stay beside it and move the optics down once and awhile...

:hahaha: :tinfoil: Tinfoil as reflector perhaps?


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## nethiker (Jun 24, 2006)

"Honey, could you get me the candle? I think I smell a gas leak...."


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## ViReN (Jun 24, 2006)

I m with candle here (if comparing with the so called 'semi' regulated lights, Incand's AND LED's)... Candle is FULLY REGULATED... 

if candle can catch fire, with so called 'modern' lights with lithiums .... there is risk of EXPLOSION... 

risk is everywhere... 

I use either as and when the need arises depending upon the purpose... Candle is Ofcourse more Romantic too


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## javafool (Jun 24, 2006)

My opinion is much different now that I live in Florida than it was when I lived in Indiana. After our first significant hurricane outage, I used my flashlights to retreive my candles and fill my lanterns. After less than half an hour, the heat and the smell put all of the wax and oils into permanent retirement for indoor use. I still enjoy using them on the Lanai or the patio for that nice affect in the evening. I make sure I have plenty of batteries for my LEDs for the extended, summer power outages for indoor use.


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## TORCH_BOY (Jun 24, 2006)

I sometimes use scented candles around the house


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## DoubleDutch (Jun 24, 2006)

WAVE_PARTICLE said:


> You can't mod a candle.....
> 
> or can you? :thinking:
> 
> ...



Yes, you can: Roar of the Petrolcan 

Kees


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## Synergy (Jun 24, 2006)

javafool said:


> My opinion is much different now that I live in Florida than it was when I lived in Indiana. After our first significant hurricane outage, I used my flashlights to retreive my candles and fill my lanterns. After less than half an hour, the heat and the smell put all of the wax and oils into permanent retirement for indoor use.


 
My sentiments exactly....As someone who worked as a firefighter/paramedic in the extremely hot,humid environ of Southwest Louisiana following Hurricane Rita, I sure wouldn't have welcomed the additional heat given off by lamps and candles. Not to mention the dangers of ruptured gas lines, etc...

Do candles have their place? Sure...on the table between me and wife during a romantic dinner! :naughty: 

Do candles smell better? You betcha!...Until someone develops a "scratch-n-sniff" flashlight...Or maybe one that releases scent when the bulb warms up (like those plug-in things you can buy for your house) 

Do candles have a place in emergency lighting situations? For short term, probably not; but I do believe they still belong in a long-term survival kit.


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## bennytheblade (Jun 24, 2006)

outofgum said:


> In a power outage you have no air conditioning. If you are stuck on a hot, sticky, humid night, without power do you really want to putting more heat into the air?



This is a good point. Having gone thru Katrina and Rita, I can tell you that it was no fun having the power off in TX in August and the idea of lighting several fires around an overcrowded house did not thrill me (especially w/ several 3-7 year olds who were cranky). Also, all the windows were open and there was an occaisonal breeze that would blow out the oil lantern.

They other concern was mobility. One couple who stayed w/ us had people breaking into there house. I wouldnt want to have to use a candle to see who was coming thru the door.


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## fleegs (Jun 24, 2006)

OK so its clear. Safety is a huge improvement for flashlights. That aside, it is like comparing a computer versus a typewriter, a mop versus a toothbrush, a car versus a horse and buggy. All will get the job done but in different ways.


The main advantage I see in using a flashlight is that it helps you to direct light. I would not want to try to find something I dropped in a deep crack with a candle. Nor use a candle to find something in the back of some deep drawer (like a filing cabinet) or in the back of a deep closet.

I would also not want to search for a missing person during a power outage with a candle. Or check on the roof to see what damage has occurred. Or look at my car engine to fix a problem. Would a candle work, sure, but I could also sweep my floor with a tooth brush. The right tool for the job could mean life or death. A candle is a tool and a flashight is a different type of tool. Both which are necessary. 

For example, if there was a power outage in the winter, I would really like to use a candle and a flashlight (in my case a lot of flashlights  ).

Technology is for convience. Hence the indoor flushing toilet. 

That is the only argument I could make.


Good luck,
rob


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## leprechaun414 (Jun 24, 2006)

If you play with Fire, Someones gonna get hurt. :candle:  
Flashlights only hurt the user when they run out of batteries


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## Synergy (Jun 24, 2006)

fleegs said:


> Technology is for convience. Hence the indoor flushing toilet.
> rob


 

And that's one piece of technology I can honestly say I'm greatful for!!! :rock:


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## Illum (Jun 24, 2006)

Synergy said:


> You betcha!...Until someone develops a "scratch-n-sniff" flashlight...Or maybe one that releases scent when the bulb warms up (like those plug-in things you can buy for your house)



Well, if you have the money for Lithium batteries, Surefire's bezel is 100% waterproof, just fit the light of your choice snuggly in the middle of a roll of toilet paper and add the aroma oil of your choice in a clear container and place it ontop of the Surefire.:huh:

there, both light and scent, for a good 50 minutes if your using a 2 cr123a and a P60 :lolsign::lolsign:



bennytheblade said:


> This is a good point. Having gone thru Katrina and Rita, I can tell you that it was no fun having the power off in TX in August ...



Well, based on my experiences with hurricanes, When theres a prolonged power outage I'd pump [if necessary] the gas from the lawnmower into the tank of the car, let the engine run idle, leave all applicances off, hook up my 400 watt inverter and extension cord, hook up all the fan in the house up to it. 400 watts is ample for fans, and they will keep the house below 80...in a few rooms anyway.

When they say you get bad mileage when you use the AC, they're darn correct!


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## Coop (Jun 24, 2006)

I use both candles and flashlights... candles for lighting up a room. Put them in safe places. And flashlights for moving around...

Now if only the power here wouldn't be so damn reliable...


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## RAF_Groundcrew (Jun 24, 2006)

I can't believe this thrad has gone so long so soon....

Flashlights for when you still have batteries, candles for when the batteries have run out.

OR, Candles if you're indoors, and don't think the power's coming back on anytime soon (save the batteries).

OR, Buy some long life LED lights that run on common batteries for a LONG TIME.

If you're in an area that has outages regularly, a generator would be a wise standby choice.


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## Nubo (Jun 25, 2006)

Candles have their strong points. Shelf-life is practically infinite with no degradation of performance. They are waterproof. Long run-time -- we have several "50-hour" emergency candles. The heat produced can be a benefit depending on the situation. You can even heat up a can of soup over a candle.

I'm more than happy using candles in the room I'm IN. I wouldn't want to set up candles throughout the house and leave them lit unattended for hours. This is something you can easily and safely do with LEDs, making navigation though the house a lot easier than carrying a lit candle with you. In this part of the world, disasters could easily be from earthquakes. I'd shy away from candles if the outage was a result of a quake.


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## eebowler (Jun 25, 2006)

outofgum said:


> In a power outage you have no air conditioning. If you are stuck on a hot, sticky, humid night, without power do you really want to putting more heat into the air?


 AC? People who have AC in their homes here probably cold afford a generator. It's nothing the common household has. If it's hot and humid, we just open the windows if they wern't open already.

With respect to lamps, for people who have them, they are cheap to run. I bought 5L of kerosene a few days ago and paid only about $1.5 US for it.



ViReN said:


> I m with candle here (if comparing with the so called 'semi' regulated lights, Incand's AND LED's)... Candle is FULLY REGULATED...


 LOL. I didn't think of that. 

With respect to price, a lightwave 2000 costs $250TT or $41US while a maglite 2D costs on sale, $165TT and worse, a cheap plastic 2D flashlight can be arround $12TT or about $2US. Of course, the masses think that the 2AA maglite is expensive at $110TT ($18US) but, it's the best thing money can buy.



MayCooper said:


> I use both candles and flashlights... candles for lighting up a room. Put them in safe places. And flashlights for moving around...
> 
> Now if only the power here wouldn't be so damn reliable...



At home, they immediately go for the candles and light up. I on the other hand strap on at least two flashlights somewhere about my body and walk arround aimlessly hoping electricity doesn't return before going to sleep. Even though my brother and mother have flashlights of their own, they don't use them and to tell you the truth, I don't use my either. The candles provide more than enough light to navigate inside.


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## Outdoors Fanatic (Jun 25, 2006)

Flashlights are cool and everything, but nothing can beat the sheer power, the area coverage and the color rendition of a pure flame source. Not to mention the insane runtime! Yeah candles are a pain in the a$$, but try to use a good camping propane/butane lantern and you'll leave your flashlights resting on the shelves for the rest of the next power failures of your life. Best of all: it doesn't need an eletronic circuit to be regulated, not to mention it's incredibly cheap to run.

Save you batteries for when you are far out in the woods and can't afford to pack a lot of weight.


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## Illum (Jun 25, 2006)

Nubo said:


> Candles have their strong points. Shelf-life is practically infinite with no degradation of performance.



Um...believe it or not, If Silverfishes are hungry enough...they will eat candles

Silverfishes..

Order Thysanura, uninstinct dinos


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## jeep44 (Jun 25, 2006)

During our last power outage,(when the whole eastern US and Canada went out) I had no idea how long the power might be out. I had only maglites then,but I had a fair supply of batteries. I didn't want to use them up just sitting around in the evening,so I got out my tin candle lanterns. I use these in Civil War reenacting. They are small tin boxes with a pane of glass on one side,vented,and fitted with a candleholder inside. Both of the ones I have have handles on them, and can be carried around,even outside in a wind with no problem. With a beeswax candle (beeswax burns longer than ordinary candles-there's a candle mod!) they will burn for many hours,and throw a suprising amount of light. They are definitely part of my disaster planning,although I have since acquired a wide array of lights.


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## Topper (Jun 25, 2006)

Beeswax candles burn longer? I did not know that. I still have some things in a mini storage and the owner has bees sells honey bee boxes the whole nine yards, I will pick up a couple next time I am there to pay my bill.
Topper


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## Planterz (Jun 25, 2006)

One thing's for sure, you can't make a bathroom smell better after a BM by turning a flashlight on.


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## OutdoorIdiot (Jun 25, 2006)

I think tealight candles are a great thing to have around, and much overlooked in this modern age.

In a power-out / emergency / in the wilderness, and with a little imagination, you can even use them to boil water to make a cup of tea (as an Englishman, the most pressing matter in any emergency is to secure a source of tea




):

http://www.outdooridiots.com/features/200605/tealight/tealight.asp 

However, as a sobering thought:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/london/content/articles/2005/09/21/tealights_feature.shtml


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## hquan (Jun 25, 2006)

As previously mentioned, candles and flashlights serve slightly different purposes. For situations where you need a lot of light in a small spot, the directed light of a flashlight can't be beat - for example, try removing splinters by candle light, or doing search / rescue, identifying potential intruders, etc....


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## nerdgineer (Jun 25, 2006)

I think the "vs." in the title is what set all this off. To paraphrase others before me,

(candles + flashlights) > flashlights > candles > nothing


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## altoon (Jun 25, 2006)

The American Red Cross:

"Top Safety Tips for a Blackout
* Only use a flashlight for emergency lighting. Never use candles!"
http://www.redcross.org/services/prepare/0,1082,0_92_,00.html


The CDC:
"PUBLIC SERVICE ANNOUNCEMENT
"Proper Use of Candles During a Power Outage

"Version for Radio Announcers to Read

"This is an important message from the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services. Home fires are a threat after a natural disaster and fire trucks may have trouble getting to your home. If the power is out, use flashlights or other battery-powered lights if possible, instead of candles..."
http://www.bt.cdc.gov/disasters/psa/candles.asp


Southern California Edison:

"These tips can help you and your family stay safe in the event of a power outage.

" * Always keep a flashlight and extra batteries handy. Never use candles in a power outage or other emergency."
http://www.sce.com/Safety/EmergencyPlanning/PowerOutages/


State Farm Insurance, Candles and Fire Safety:

"Here are some tips to help you protect your home and family from candle fires...

" * Use a flashlight rather than a candle during power outages."
http://www.statefarm.com/consumer/vhouse/articles/candles.htm


National Candle Association, Candle Safety Rules:

"Be very careful if using candles during a power outage. Flashlights and other battery-powered lights are safer sources of light during a power failure..."
http://www.candles.org/safety_rules.html


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## cannon50 (Jun 25, 2006)

I predict there will always be a need for candles in the home. Has anyone mentioned birthday cakes?


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## Illum (Jun 25, 2006)

cannon50 said:


> I predict there will always be a need for candles in the home. Has anyone mentioned birthday cakes?



In the 21 century birthday candles will be replaced with mag solitaires without the head and with flickering bulbs...
Just how would the kid blow it out will remain a mystry...


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## Brangdon (Jun 26, 2006)

RAF_Groundcrew said:


> Flashlights for when you still have batteries, candles for when the batteries have run out.


Candles are a lot bulkier than batteries. I keep a few candles around, but it's not worth keeping a large (20+) stockpile because the space is better used by lithiums, which will have a longer runtime (in the right torch).


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## Brangdon (Jun 26, 2006)

OutdoorIdiot said:


> I think tealight candles are a great thing to have around, and much overlooked in this modern age.


Pretty, but surprisingly weak for illumination. I found them roughly 1/3rd as bright as a proper household candle. I have a holder than takes 7 of them, and you actually need that many.


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## Tritium (Jun 26, 2006)

Illum_the_nation said:


> In the 21 century birthday candles will be replaced with mag solitaires without the head and with flickering bulbs...
> Just how would the kid blow it out will remain a mystry...


 
There are already led candles out that contain a sensor and can be "blown" out.

Thurmond


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## Synergy (Jun 26, 2006)

Illum_the_nation said:


> In the 21 century birthday candles will be replaced with mag solitaires without the head and with flickering bulbs...
> Just how would the kid blow it out will remain a mystry...


 
Sad thing is, the candles will still be brighter :lolsign:


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## twl (Jun 26, 2006)

Candles melt, crack, break, or can otherwise be wrecked fairly easily.
Flashlights are much more rugged.


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## Illum (Jun 26, 2006)

Tritium said:


> There are already led candles out that contain a sensor and can be "blown" out.
> 
> Thurmond



bt you probably wont be able to buy them for $2 per dozen...



twl said:


> Candles melt, crack, break, or can otherwise be wrecked fairly easily.
> Flashlights are much more rugged.



um...your talking about lights from Surefire, not the dollar store, but its the dollar store the majority of light users get their lights from...


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## greenLED (Jun 26, 2006)

WAVE_PARTICLE said:


> You can't mod a candle.....
> 
> or can you? :thinking:


Yes, you can. My Mother in Law makes GID candles. 

...and just last week a read an on-line tutorial on how to add 3 wicks to a "stock" 1 wick tea candle. :wow:


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## OutdoorIdiot (Jun 26, 2006)

greenLED said:


> ...and just last week a read an on-line tutorial on how to add 3 wicks to a "stock" 1 wick tea candle. :wow:


 
I hope you are referring to the nonsense in the website that I contribute to! If not, I want names! If there's anybody else on the Internet with a tutorial on how to add 3 wicks to a tea candle, then we'll have to up our own tutorial to 4 wicks! We will not be beaten in this matter. We shall fight them on the beaches... etc...


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## eebowler (Jun 29, 2006)

The statefarm link alton provided said "In addition to being a fire hazard, improperly used candles can generate a significant amount of soot. This soot can damage the walls, floors and ceilings of your home as well as your personal belongings." *Soot?* I can't understand what can cause a candle to produce soot unless the flame itself somehow lacks enough oxygen... :thinking:



jeep44 said:


> With a beeswax candle (beeswax burns longer than ordinary candles-there's a candle mod!) they will burn for many hours,and throw a suprising amount of light.


 Didn't know that.


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## Lightraven (Jun 29, 2006)

One of my coworker's family set his house on fire with a candle. There was much concern as he left work to handle the emergency. The next day, it was reported that he and his family were OK, nobody hurt.

An envelope was passed around to collect money (as we often do for various sob stories). As the envelope was going around the room, it was noted that the fire had done little damage, but the fire department had done considerable water damage, one coworker solemnly noting that the big screen TV would need to be replaced. 

I didn't get out my wallet.


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## wmirag (Jun 29, 2006)

During an outage, emergency services will be hard to notify and especilly busy. No extra risk of fire should be taken. At 24/hrs per AA, a Gerber infinity will light a room during waking hours well enough to get around for at least three nights. Unless a family is desperately poor, $20 for such a light and a supply of batteries seems SO reasonable. I can't see why a flame, open or not, would ever be considered.

W.


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