# PIR 1 (Programmable Incandescent Regulator) beta testing thread



## winny (Jan 6, 2006)

This is the thread for the PIR 1-projects beta testers and their progress. Feel free to ask any questions about it but bear in mind that there is differences between the upcoming production version and this beta version.

Questions about the production version is preferably asked here 

The regulator, as a part of MonsterMag 1 has been discussed here before 

I know that the threads has been mixed up a lot but I'll try to keep them separated from here.


Now, from what I can see the following persons has indicated their interest in the previous threads and PM's:

Spacemarine (Germany, end of route)
vandrecken (UK, end of route)
andrewwynn (WI, USA, end of route)
wtraymond (WI, USA)
WhiteHot (CA, USA, ok)
Lunarmodule (Hawaii, USA)
wquiles (TX, USA, end of route)
flashgreenie (Sweden)
-------------------
flex76italy (out)
savumaki (out)

Did I forgot anyone? Sorry, no new testers please but I might have missed someone from before.

As I said earlier, you can't all have a board of your own so you will have four options:

1. Receive the regulator, test it for a few days and send it to the next person closest to you.
2. Pay for the regulator ($25-ish) and shipping and be the end of route for one of the regulators. That means you get it a few days later but you get to keep the regulator. I'll try to support any usage of it as long as I have time.
3. Receive the regulator, pay only for the shipping, test it and send it back to me.
4. Opt out.

Any questions?


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## wquiles (Jan 6, 2006)

*Re: PIR 1 (Programable Incandecent Regulator) beta testing thread*

Well, I would like to be on the list, and don't mind paying for the regulator now. So let me know if you want my help as a Beta Tester 

Will


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## WhiteHot (Jan 6, 2006)

*Re: PIR 1 (Programable Incandecent Regulator) beta testing thread*

Before, you stated that you had a really limited number of regulators. It seems that you have received the attention of some that would be better, more complete testers than I probably would. I have quite a bit of test equipment but others have more combos of bulbs/batteries than I do. I will stand by and see what others have to say. If I do test for you, I would like to be the end of the route. I am in Southern California.


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## winny (Jan 6, 2006)

*Re: PIR 1 (Programable Incandecent Regulator) beta testing thread*

WhiteHot,

Yes, I only have five boards left and not enough components. I can get three (touch wood * 100) ready by monday and maybe two more during the week.
You don't have to have an arsenal of bulbs, but more than one is welcomed.


wquiles,

I'll put you on the list and see what happens.



EDIT: My computer is down at home so there might be some delay in my replies. I might manage to mend it back together tonight, but no guarantees.


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## vandrecken (Jan 6, 2006)

*Re: PIR 1 (Programable Incandecent Regulator) beta testing thread*

Because I'm new to modding and just pulling the bits together, I'd prefer to pitch in some cash and go end of route so I don't hold things up. But definately in !

Cheers, Vandrecken


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## andrewwynn (Jan 7, 2006)

*Re: PIR 1 (Programable Incandecent Regulator) beta testing thread*

If you happened to have a board and a programmed µC.. (helpfully soldered on) i could part and assemble a board for testing.. if that helps. 

-awr


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## wtraymond (Jan 7, 2006)

*Re: PIR 1 (Programable Incandecent Regulator) beta testing thread*

I doesn't look like there's that many on the list for beta testers and several have opted to be end-of-route already. I don't mind waiting or shipping international. You can put me anywhere though I'll probably be close to AWR on the list. I'm looking forward to getting involved in this project.


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## Mad Maxabeam (Jan 8, 2006)

*Re: PIR 1 (Programable Incandecent Regulator) beta testing thread*

I'll take 3 to start, give them the head to toe. I would prefer to purchase the regulators ($25-ish) if thats OK.


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## winny (Jan 8, 2006)

*Re: PIR 1 (Programable Incandecent Regulator) beta testing thread*

Sorry for the long delay everybody. As I said, my computer is down.

andrewwynn,

Well, no, not really. The soldering doesn't take that long and if you have done two boards you might just as well do three.
Which option do you prefer?

wtraymond,

Ok, so you prefer option 3?


Mad Maxabeam,

No. This is not a final sale of the regulators. If you are not on the list you won't recieve any of the beta-regulators. You will have to wait two or three weeks for the full production run to start.


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## flashgreenie (Jan 8, 2006)

*Re: PIR 1 (Programable Incandecent Regulator) beta testing thread*

err, didn't I put my name down for beta testing???


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## winny (Jan 8, 2006)

*Re: PIR 1 (Programable Incandecent Regulator) beta testing thread*

flashgreenie,

Oops. I knew I forgot someone. Sorry about that!


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## Pajamas (Jan 8, 2006)

*Re: PIR 1 (Programable Incandecent Regulator) beta testing thread*

winny,

It sounds like beta testers are full, right?

As a next option, can you post pictures of the board (or did I miss that somewhere?)

Let me know.

WY,USA


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## winny (Jan 8, 2006)

*Re: PIR 1 (Programable Incandecent Regulator) beta testing thread*

Pajamas,

Yep. About 10 candidates for testing and only 5 boards left. Sorry.
There are pictures of the regulator in the MonsterMag 1-thread.


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## Mad Maxabeam (Jan 9, 2006)

*Re: PIR 1 (Programable Incandecent Regulator) beta testing thread*

OK, the production regulators will be posted for sale in 2-3 wekks. That works for me.

Thanks


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## flashgreenie (Jan 9, 2006)

*Re: PIR 1 (Programable Incandecent Regulator) beta testing thread*

no probs:wave:



winny said:


> flashgreenie,
> 
> Oops. I knew I forgot someone. Sorry about that!


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## winny (Jan 10, 2006)

*Re: PIR 1 (Programable Incandecent Regulator) beta testing thread*

How many of you guys will use the temperature sensing feature?

General update: The boards are almost finished but there are some small software issues that we will have to solve first.

Would a one button programming solution work for you guys in the meantime? There is no way that we can finish a full-blown GUI interface for the beta boards. I can pre-program the boards with any settings you want but I figure that you want to change the output voltage at some point...


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## wtraymond (Jan 10, 2006)

*Re: PIR 1 (Programable Incandecent Regulator) beta testing thread*

I'll take option #1.

I won't be testing the temperature sensing feature.

One button programming or DIPP switches for changing voltage would be great. I doubt that everyone has the same project voltage in mind.


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## andrewwynn (Jan 11, 2006)

*Re: PIR 1 (Programable Incandecent Regulator) beta testing thread*

I would want to have the temp sensor.. most people would not need it.. if you have mag85 or less power for less than 1 hr runtime in your light it's very difficult to overheat. 

The 9x17500 solution i've been able to get the head of a maglite up to about 160F.. the internals were maybe like 140-150F.. 

one button programming to set the voltage? obviously it's important to set the voltage.. 

do you have the battery cutout voltage independent of the output.. it must be.. mine is based on the output voltage, not the battery voltage.. one more limitation of the LDO solution i'm using.. but it works out ok since the Vbat is close to Vbulb anyhow.

-awr


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## wquiles (Jan 11, 2006)

*Re: PIR 1 (Programable Incandecent Regulator) beta testing thread*



winny said:


> How many of you guys will use the temperature sensing feature?


I certainly would love to test it. I have a portable, infrared, no-contact temp sensor ( like this one ), so I can use it to check the set points.





winny said:


> Would a one button programming solution work for you guys in the meantime? There is no way that we can finish a full-blown GUI interface for the beta boards. I can pre-program the boards with any settings you want but I figure that you want to change the output voltage at some point...


Absolutely. For now, I would concentrate on a simple interface during this beta evaluation. Once you get our collective feedback, then you can work on something more complete/easier to use.

Will


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## winny (Jan 12, 2006)

*Re: PIR 1 (Programable Incandecent Regulator) beta testing thread*

Good news everyone!

The beta boards almost fits inside a KIU socket. If you file it down until you touch the resistors or if you lathe your KIU socket, it will. The board is about 31 mm and can probably be filed down to 30 mm and the KIU socket was 30.3 mm and can be made 32 mm.

Thanks to flashlightgenie for lending me his KIU socket!

Here are the pictures:

The board:





Bigger 


The socket:




Bigger 


Almost fits:




Bigger


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## wquiles (Jan 12, 2006)

*Re: PIR 1 (Programable Incandecent Regulator) beta testing thread*

Outstanding !!!

I guess that used mini-lathe  I just got would come handy after all 

Will


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## winny (Jan 12, 2006)

*Re: PIR 1 (Programable Incandecent Regulator) beta testing thread*

I would need your adresses so I know where to ship everything!

Here is the preliminary route for the beta regulators. If you want to change anything, please contact me or post it here.

flashlightgenie (Sweden, ok) -> Spacemarine (Germany, ok, perheps out)
vandrecken (UK, ok) -> WhiteHot (CA, USA)
wtraymond (WI, ok)
Lunarmodule (Hawaii, ok) -> wquiles (TX, ok)
andrewwynn (WI, ok)

Last guy in line keeps it.


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## wquiles (Jan 12, 2006)

*Re: PIR 1 (Programable Incandecent Regulator) beta testing thread*

PM sent with my address here in Texas.

Thanks,
Will


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## winny (Jan 14, 2006)

*Re: PIR 1 (Programable Incandecent Regulator) beta testing thread*

I hate to be rude, but those who does not provide me with their address by Tuesday, or hopefully Monday are out. Everyone got a PM so...

People with an "ok" can relax.

I feel that someone will be out so the route is indeed subject to change. It also seems that everyone wants to keep the regulators so I will solve the issue as I see fit.

I can't say what the beta regulators will cost yet. I only had parts for three boards and in order to get the remaining parts in time I had to pay reductions high prices. Expect closer to $30 than $25 + actual shipping. I would give them away if I could but at the moment, I'm pretty much out of cash. I will reward all of you though when I do have cash, you have my word on that.


EDIT: Where do you guys what the temperature sensor? Depending on how you intend to use it, I can either solder it to the board, glue it to the transistor, attach cables so you can place it anywhere or leave it unsoldered for you to solder it as you see fit.

Note to the keepers: You will have to live with the fact that is says "MonsterMag 1" on the board and that the programming vias are located _under_ the uC ohgeez:  ) so you will have to solder cables to the uCs pins, if you need to re-program it (hopefully not).

EDIT 2: The tantal capacitors sort of solved the programing issue. They are way smaller than my old ones. I'll post a picture of them tomorrow.


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## winny (Jan 14, 2006)

*Re: PIR 1 (Programable Incandecent Regulator) beta testing thread*



wquiles said:


> I guess that used mini-lathe  I just got would come handy after all




Yep! I suggest you try it with your KIU socket rather than the regulator. Just at little tip.  
What did you pay for it?


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## vandrecken (Jan 15, 2006)

*Re: PIR 1 (Programable Incandecent Regulator) beta testing thread*

Thanks Winny - address and stuff sent by PM


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## wquiles (Jan 15, 2006)

*Re: PIR 1 (Programable Incandecent Regulator) beta testing thread*



winny said:


> Yep! I suggest you try it with your KIU socket rather than the regulator. Just at little tip.
> What did you pay for it?


But of course - I would not dare modify the regulator 

I got the used Cummins 7x12 Mini-lathe with about $500 worth in accesories for $500, plus shipping to Texas. I just finished bolting the bench to the wall and starting the lathe for the first time yersterday. I hope to create some chips today 

Will


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## wquiles (Jan 15, 2006)

*Re: PIR 1 (Programable Incandecent Regulator) beta testing thread*



winny said:


> I can't say what the beta regulators will cost yet. I only had parts for three boards and in order to get the remaining parts in time I had to pay reductions high prices. Expect closer to $30 than $25 + actual shipping. I would give them away if I could but at the moment, I'm pretty much out of cash. I will reward all of you though when I do have cash, you have my word on that.


In my opinion, $30 is still "acceptable" for the level of functionality. I think anything higher could be hard to sell in volume.







winny said:


> Where do you guys what the temperature sensor? Depending on how you intend to use it, I can either solder it to the board, glue it to the transistor, attach cables so you can place it anywhere or leave it unsoldered for you to solder it as you see fit.


Since you are the designer, and you know the circuit far better than any of us, I think it would be much better if it comes from you already glue to the point you feel it would work best. Perhaps even more importantly, having it glue already would mean that we would report on its behavior properly since there would be one less variable to consider.






winny said:


> Note to the keepers: You will have to live with the fact that is says "MonsterMag 1" on the board and that the programming vias are located _under_ the uC ohgeez:  ) so you will have to solder cables to the uCs pins, if you need to re-program it (hopefully not).


At least to me, this represents no worries at all. We are doing BETA testing so we would of course expect some things to be a little bit different from the final design 

Will


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## daBear (Jan 15, 2006)

*Re: PIR 1 (Programable Incandecent Regulator) beta testing thread*

I have a mag85 running on 9x 150s cells and I need a regulator in the worst way. Y'all let me know when I can order one or more, please.


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## Pajamas (Jan 15, 2006)

*Re: PIR 1 (Programable Incandecent Regulator) beta testing thread*

winny & the BTs (sounds like a cool band if you ask me  )

When you guys test this PIR 1, let us know what configurations you are all trying -- it'd be good to know what setups will and will not work for this board.


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## winny (Jan 16, 2006)

*Re: PIR 1 (Programable Incandecent Regulator) beta testing thread*

Route update...


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## winny (Jan 16, 2006)

*Re: PIR 1 (Programable Incandecent Regulator) beta testing thread*

We are getting closer now...

Four boards have everything but transistors now and one is missing an IC. Hopefully we will get the remaining components tomorrow but ELFA is not exactly known for their promptly deliveries. In other words, someone is getting his regulators one or two days later than the other ones

Here are some production pictures of the LEDs being soldered in place











It's 10:37 PM here so the night is still young here. Plenty of time to develop the programing interface from scratch.


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## winny (Jan 16, 2006)

*Re: PIR 1 (Programable Incandecent Regulator) beta testing thread*

Right... Who the hell came up with the idea to use the minus mark on capacitors for plus? One of the tantals let out its magic smoke.


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## Pila_Power (Jan 16, 2006)

*Re: PIR 1 (Programable Incandecent Regulator) beta testing thread*

mmmm that lovely smell...


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## winny (Jan 17, 2006)

*Re: PIR 1 (Programable Incandecent Regulator) beta testing thread*

For how long should the softstart last? Due to lack of time in the final firmware development stage (time is currently 3.00 AM over here), the possibility to set the ramp-time using the one-button interface will not be functional, instead it will be hard-coded.

So, what is the most versatile softstart ramp-time?


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## andrewwynn (Jan 17, 2006)

*Re: PIR 1 (Programable Incandecent Regulator) beta testing thread*

the testing that i've been doing and the research along with it shows that 100msec is long enough. I have between 100 and 200 msec startup ramp. Since you can program it.. it would be neat if you can use a linear ramp vs logarithmic ramp of a cap it'll limit the current more.. though as i determined.. the power to the filament is nearly constant. 

100 to 150msec should be plenty especially if you use a linear ramp.. also depends a bit on the pulse frequency.. obviously you'd need to have enough pulses in there to have control. 

I'm dying to check out one of these with the scope.. now that i've been measuring the FET-LDO model.. it has some vereerry interesting waveforms let me tell you... i'll have to get some pictures.

-awr


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## winny (Jan 17, 2006)

*Re: PIR 1 (Programable Incandecent Regulator) beta testing thread*

*To enter configuration mode:*
--------------------------------------------
Press and hold the power switch until the onboard LED lights up. This will take approx. 10 seconds.

Release the power switch.

The LED will start flashing in cycles of a particular pattern. A short flash every 2 seconds indicates the regulator is now in drive voltage setup. To switch to battery cut-off voltage setup, press and release the power switch once.
The LED will now instead flash for three times every 2 second cycle. One more press-and-release action will now exit the configuration mode and shut down the regulator.
When the desired mode has been selected, just sit tight, the regulator automatically continues to the next phase in approx. 7 seconds.

The voltage is set in two stages, first the integer part of the desired value, followed by the decimal part.
The LED will light up for a few seconds indicating setup will begin promptly.
The LED is lit for a about one second and blacked out for 1/3:rd of a second repeatedly. For every time the LED is lit, the value is increased by one. First cycle represents zero. To select the current value, press and release the power switch.
The above is now repeated for the decimal part of the voltage (value in tenths of volts). First cycle also now represents zero.

Should you have input an incorrect voltage setting, do not select any value for the decimal part. The regulator will timeout, light the LED for a few seconds and shut down with no modifications done to the settings.

When the voltage has been selected, the LED is lit and the regulator is shut down.

When configuration has been made, there is no option to revert to neither default nor a previous setting.
--------------------------------------------


The beta regulators will not be calibrated to match the configured voltage to the output drive voltage exactly. However, an exact voltage can easily be programmed by trial-and-error using a voltmeter. The error is quite small but not negligible.
Note that either you will have to measure the output voltage using a high-end voltmeter featuring true-RMS (for all waveforms), or using DC- and duty-cycle-measurement combined with the following formula:

Uout = Udcmeasured x sqrt(1/duty_cycle)
or
Uout = Ubat x sqrt(duty_cycle)
where duty_cycle is in the range 0 to 1. Keep in mind that cheap DMM might display 25 % as 75 %. Mine does... You can probably figure this out yourself.

It is strongly recommended that voltage setup or calibration is done with no lamp, or at least a cheap one, to avoid... well... holes in your wallet.


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## wquiles (Jan 17, 2006)

*Re: PIR 1 (Programable Incandecent Regulator) beta testing thread*

Excellent progress dude!. By the way, I would vote for a 150-200mS soft-start, based on what I worked and measured last year with Andrew's circuit .

Will


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## Pila_Power (Jan 17, 2006)

*Re: PIR 1 (Programable Incandecent Regulator) beta testing thread*

...just hurry up and get it ready for me to buy!!! 

Congrats to all working along these lines. I bet most of CPF is holding their breath waiting to see how things end up with this type of project. 

Regulation, not moderation!!


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## andrewwynn (Jan 18, 2006)

*Re: PIR 1 (Programable Incandecent Regulator) beta testing thread*

very cool with the programmable input.. i will have two dials for mine, but no secondary setting for battery cutout.. the light shuts off at 92% of set output voltage.. which coincidentally works well for most configs.. (since i can't have a big difference in the Vbat and Vlamp anyhow). Kudos sounds like such a nice reg.

Hey.. btw i'm working on an update to the KIU socket that would have a lip inside to hold the cktboard down firmly... it has a 30.4mm inside (to hold a 30mm driver board) but also has a 27mm 'shelf' inside so you need 1.5mm clearance around with no chips. 

On the bottom side of my circuitboard it's designed to make contact w/o using any wires for simplicity of assembly. It would not take much to modify the socket to work with your driver and your driver to work with the socket.. the main issue is with the FET.. currently i think you'd need to cut a hole in the socket to fit the FET up through.. and the bottom-mounted caps would have to either fit in the hole or you'd have to make some notches in the black plastic.. or just take advantage of the deeper current model of the KIU.

-awr


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## winny (Jan 18, 2006)

*Re: PIR 1 (Programable Incandecent Regulator) beta testing thread*



andrewwynn said:


> Hey.. btw i'm working on an update to the KIU socket that would have a lip inside to hold the cktboard down firmly... it has a 30.4mm inside (to hold a 30mm driver board) but also has a 27mm 'shelf' inside so you need 1.5mm clearance around with no chips.



We are thinking about making our own socket but we will see where this is going first.
1.5 mm clearance is no problems on the production version.



andrewwynn said:


> the main issue is with the FET.. currently i think you'd need to cut a hole in the socket to fit the FET up through.. and the bottom-mounted caps would have to either fit in the hole or you'd have to make some notches in the black plastic.. or just take advantage of the deeper current model of the KIU.



The capacitors are way smaller now as you can see in the new pictures. The current FET can be bent down and hopefully fited into the socket. Otherwise you can flip the board and let the FET face the batteries instead because the capacitors are smaller. Just make sure that the transistor does not toutch ground. If we use a D2PAK for the production version, this will not be a problem.

This is the third day from school and we worked from lunch yesterday to 6:00AM this morning. We were just finished with the programing and everything worked perfectly when we had an uC go bad for no reason. We have four hours to fix this board until the post office closes. *sigh*


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## Makarov (Jan 18, 2006)

*Re: PIR 1 (Programable Incandecent Regulator) beta testing thread*

:goodjob: winny!




winny said:


> *To enter configuration mode:*
> --------------------------------------------
> When configuration has been made, there is no option to revert to neither default nor a previous setting.


Do you mean that you cannot change the settings ever again, or that you have to reset the whole configuration if you want to change something?


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## winny (Jan 18, 2006)

*Re: PIR 1 (Programable Incandecent Regulator) beta testing thread*



Makarov said:


> Do you mean that you cannot change the settings ever again, or that you have to reset the whole configuration if you want to change something?



No no. If you change setting from X to Y, you can't undo but you can certainly re-program it back to X. No Undo-feature in other words...
The output setting does not affect the cutoff setting and vice versa.


YES! ONE IS WORKING ALMOST PERFECTLY NOW. :twothumbs :twothumbs :twothumbs 

I wounder who the lucky first one will be... 
We will try to fix the other ones but I have to run to the postal office now. The route will change...


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## wquiles (Jan 18, 2006)

*Re: PIR 1 (Programable Incandecent Regulator) beta testing thread*

Cool !!!

Please keep us posted 

Will


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## Makarov (Jan 18, 2006)

*Re: PIR 1 (Programable Incandecent Regulator) beta testing thread*



winny said:


> No no. If you change setting from X to Y, you can't undo but you can certainly re-program it back to X. No Undo-feature in other words...
> The output setting does not affect the cutoff setting and vice versa.


Good, that's what I thought, but I wasn't sure.


winny said:


> YES! ONE IS WORKING ALMOST PERFECTLY NOW. :twothumbs :twothumbs :twothumbs


Great!

Can't wait to the finished product is on sale.


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## winny (Jan 18, 2006)

*Re: PIR 1 (Programable Incandecent Regulator) beta testing thread*

Right, my computer is broken again. I'm on my old trusty Lappy P100, weighing only a whooping 9 pounds and has a colorful 12" passive display with lag as an extra feature.


Here is the current status:

The first board has been sent to Lunarmodule today with registered mail and should arrive in seven days. I just managed to catch the bus and arrived 8 minutes before the post office closed to the cost of some bad last minute soldering.
Lunarmodule: I hope you have a soldering iron if you plan to use your own cables.

I can't express how much work and how little sleep that has been required the last week to get this one going. Hopefully we will get two more working but I can't tell when. The lack of school, doing the laundry and personal hygiene has to be compensated for so I think some people that has been "promised" to be end of route will be sad. The passaround will have to have more stops to compensate for the more or less broken boards.

It's strange though because my first regulator in my MonsterMag worked flawlessly and these five has used every trick they had to try to make me fail and give up.

Now, you might have to live with the fact that the soft start regulation does not compensate for battery losses during the voltage ramping. If your batteries sag after, you will see that the regulator compensate for it after the soft start.

Take care!
/Andreas


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## wquiles (Jan 18, 2006)

*Re: PIR 1 (Programable Incandecent Regulator) beta testing thread*

Thank you Andreas. We thank you for your efforts, time, and enthusiasm 

Will


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## winny (Jan 19, 2006)

*Re: PIR 1 (Programable Incandecent Regulator) beta testing thread*

wquiles,

You are welcome!
I need a break for now so my enthusiasm will be limited to developing the productions regulators until next week when I will consider to take the remaining four regulators by their horns and fix them.

I'm quite eager to start a pre-order but I want to be able to tell exactly what features and dimensions the production will have first. 
It's a bit hard to estimate the demand for the final regulator. I get PM and mails on daily basis with people who ask if they can buy it, when they can buy it and how soon they can pay for it to get it faster but I can't say if the total demand is 50 or 500.


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## wquiles (Jan 19, 2006)

*Re: PIR 1 (Programable Incandecent Regulator) beta testing thread*

Just to protect yourself, I would assume that initial demand will be closer the 50 number rather than 500. At least for an initial run.

As it turns out there is a complete kit with regulator being sold right now on the Groupbuys subforum, so this will of course reduce somewhat demand for your regulator.

If the inial run of your regulator does well, you can always do a 2nd and maybe even a 3rd run later on 

Will


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## vandrecken (Jan 21, 2006)

*Re: PIR 1 (Programable Incandecent Regulator) beta testing thread*

Looking through various sources on the web, the startup surge current on tungsten halogen lamps typically decays to steady state within about 50mS.

That Andrewwynn's recommendation of 100mS minimum for the soft start ramp look bang on the money - and I'd trust experience over theory anyday 

Thanks for all your hard work Winny !


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## winny (Jan 21, 2006)

*Re: PIR 1 (Programable Incandecent Regulator) beta testing thread*

vandrecken,

Thanks!  

It's probably safe if you have perfect DC and as NewBie pionted out, it does not. I thought that someone in this passaround will try to use as mismatched battery and bulb voltages as possible and overdrive the bulb to the limits. Let's say that someone used a 6 V lamp with a 35 V battery stack. The inrush currents in the first couple of cycles will be tremendous so I did a golden mean path and set it for 300 or 400 ms, I can't remember exactly. 

Remember that the filament doesn't get hot instantly even if you use DD. I tested it with a 20W MR16 and I found it to be a good compromise. I rather play safe for now and make sure that no one says "It blows my lamps and sucks" just because they want to have instant on with very mismatched batteries and bulb. No offence to anyone as I would like that feature myself but I don't have to go further than to myself to understand that most guys consider anything that they haven't built themselves and doesn't work perfectly to be pure crap. We are working on the GUI so you can set the raise time yourself but in the meantime you will have to live with 300 ms longer raise time than originally planed.

Lunarmodule:
Are you there? I have some instructions for you when you get my package.


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## wquiles (Jan 21, 2006)

*Re: PIR 1 (Programable Incandecent Regulator) beta testing thread*

winny,

That sounds reasonable for first pass. I am counting on folks reporting on what they like and don't, so that you can make a better production model - that is the whole goal of doing a BETA test 

I still have the Digital Scope shown in my soft-start tests, so I will definitely show some screen shots once the regulator gets here 

Will


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## wtraymond (Jan 22, 2006)

*Re: PIR 1 (Programable Incandecent Regulator) beta testing thread*



winny said:


> It's probably safe if you have perfect DC and as NewBie pionted out, it does not. I thought that someone in this passaround will try to use as mismatched battery and bulb voltages as possible and overdrive the bulb to the limits. Let's say that someone used a 6 V lamp with a 35 V battery stack. The inrush currents in the first couple of cycles will be tremendous so I did a golden mean path and set it for 300 or 400 ms, I can't remember exactly.



That was a very good idea about setting the ramp time higher than normal in lieu of the programming feature on the prototype boards. I hadn't thought of running a pack/battery differential that extreme, but now that you mention it, it really shows a big advantage over Andrew's board - no offense AWR! 

Andrew's board needs a little overhead to maintain regulation but still requires the pack to be closely matched to the bulb. This is great when working with Ni-cad and NiMH packs. At 1.2v per cell, fine tuning you pack is easy. But the future is li-ion and matching your pack to your bulb in 3.7v volt increments will make things challenging for the low budget experimenter.

I'm going to order one of those cool new Kiu socket/regulator combos just as soon as I can afford one (or as soon as I can send paypal without my wife noticing).

Great work, both of you.


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## winny (Jan 22, 2006)

*Re: PIR 1 (Programable Incandecent Regulator) beta testing thread*



wtraymond said:


> That was a very good idea about setting the ramp time higher than normal in lieu of the programming feature on the prototype boards. I hadn't thought of running a pack/battery differential that extreme, but now that you mention it, it really shows a big advantage over Andrew's board - no offense AWR!



We where thinking about making a third menu for setting the raise time but the post office was closing in 30 minutes and we where two weeks behind schedule, a fast-and-works-for-all-solution was required. I think people will find the fact that the soft-start does not compensate for battery lag more annoying rather than longer raise time. At least I did... It looks, well, cheap.




wtraymond said:


> I'm going to order one of those cool new Kiu socket/regulator combos just as soon as I can afford one (or as soon as I can send paypal without my wife noticing).



He charged $60 for his regulator and a socket. I bet I can do it cheaper.  




wtraymond said:


> Great work, both of you.



Thanks!


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## andrewwynn (Jan 24, 2006)

*Re: PIR 1 (Programable Incandecent Regulator) beta testing thread*

the current drop i measured on a 13W (1316) lamp only took maybe 40msec to be nearly steady state.. at 100msec it's dead flat.. one of my lamps takes well over 500msec to get to full power and i kinda like the wrrrrrrrip.appearance as it turns on.. that is a Mag85 lamp. 

The ability to mismatch voltage of bat and lamp is the primary advantage of the PIR.. the primary advantage of the hotdriver is that it is 'drop in' into a KIU socket.. doesn't even need wiring to the magswitch for lower power lights (i.e. mag85) (kidding a little bit.. i'd probably still hard-wire in the mag85 case.. saves about 20 mohm resistance)... but with 25W or less lights.. most cases the regulator will counteract the voltage drop which is in the low milvolts on the mag switch and makes it a cake-walk to wire in.. 

I hope to figure out a really simple solution to fit the PIR into the KIU and will post as soon as that is available. 

As far as cost goes.. i think we are aiming for $60 for the hotdriver complete and $70 for the high-power model (for long run mag85s or 100W solutions).. considering it's like $22 for a complete KIU socket and $5.50 for a mag switch.. that leaves $32.50 for the driver by itself and that includes $0 for assembly.. it is not a bad deal at all.. i would not sell the PIR for less than it's worth and i'd say at lest $30-35 is a very fair value. 

Not sure what you meant by the battery lag vs startup.. i'm also very curious to see what the startup ramp looks like.. since it can be computer controlled.. i'm hoping it's a linear vs log ramp and it'll be a smoother turn on than the hotdriver.

many if not most lamps are not too difficult to match to the nearest 3.7..(there are so many lamps!) however efficiency does go down with the H.D. compared to PIR.. running a 35W lamp from a 7.2V source at 7.0V is still 97% efficient once the batteries are at nominal.. but it starts at 83% efficiency with fresh cells! 

Well always nice to see progress on the PIR.

-awr


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## winny (Jan 25, 2006)

*Re: PIR 1 (Programable Incandecent Regulator) beta testing thread*

Wow, 500 ms on a WA 1185! That's a long time. Perhaps I wasn't over-cautious with 400 ms.

To cut costs, we are thinking about designing our own socket to cut down on the $22 cost. These are a bit loose planes but we'll se how things turn out.

By battery lag, I mean how much the battery voltage drops during startup. We had to come up with something really fast so it currently measures the voltage before it starts to ramp and if the battery voltage drops during the ramp time, it won't compensate for it. If you are running with matched battery and bulb voltages and your batteries are more or less depleted or you are putting a big load on them, you will notice this bug.
*
Does anyone here know Lunarmodule*? I've sent him several mails and PMs and I haven't got any reply from him. He should have got the regulator yesterday.


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## MSI (Jan 25, 2006)

*Re: PIR 1 (Programable Incandecent Regulator) beta testing thread*

Unassembled a Kiu kit is $12, not $22. I think the $22 price must be for an assembled one.


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## pertinax (Jan 25, 2006)

*Re: PIR 1 (Programable Incandecent Regulator) beta testing thread*

Man, I want one of these things. OK, several of these things. I'd love to be able to throw 12 or 16 batteries in a tube and run an 1185 for over an hour, still in a reasonably sized light. 

The LDO solution is good for protecting bulbs, but it doesn't let you use the extra joules to make light. This one will. And that makes these lights a lot more practical for non-hobbyists. I have a bunch of friends that would love and could use these superlights, but are turned off by all the "do's and don'ts". 

Keep it in the $30 range ($60 with a socket) and I'm in for two at a bare minimum.

Keep up the good work guys.

Pertinax


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## winny (Jan 25, 2006)

*Re: PIR 1 (Programable Incandecent Regulator) beta testing thread*



pertinax said:


> Man, I want one of these things. OK, several of these things.



Always nice to hear!



pertinax said:


> Keep it in the $30 range ($60 with a socket) and I'm in for two at a bare minimum.



I can't give you any final prices but they sound reasonable. It depends a little how much Sasha whats for a donation. Does anyone here know her, who could remind her? I've asked her several weeks ago with no answer. I know she's busy but a little reminder might do the trick.


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## pertinax (Jan 25, 2006)

*Re: PIR 1 (Programable Incandecent Regulator) beta testing thread*

The prices I mentioned are not maximums-- just the prices that I would jump all over without a second thought. 


The bulbs the people on this forum use are expensive. After having had one of those $18 minutes (two bulbs), I won't hesitate to spend some dough to save bulbs. 

Anyway, I'm looking forward to sending you some money!

Pertinax


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## andrewwynn (Jan 26, 2006)

*Re: PIR 1 (Programable Incandecent Regulator) beta testing thread*

i'm good buds with Steve (lunarmodule).. he's been swamped so i think maybe just wait a bit yet, he'll be online and he's good at detailed emails. 

the 500msec is definitely overkill.. it is just what happened to work out with the capacitors i happened to yank off an old CD ROM writer.. ($1200 for a 2x burner.. talk about a dinosaur!).. I left it because it's a good way to quickly age the test unit.. there is a lot of power dropped on that FET at startup! 

I have an 'awr socket' designed ala KIU socket to exactly match my regulator.. using eMachineshop it quotes to about $4 each at qty:100 but that doesn't include the hardware or the ceramic socket (you can get the socket from battery space for like $1.60).. the hardware.. maybe 20 cents.

Now i understand about the 'battery lag'. My regulator uses a 'fluke' that i discovered by total trial-and-error (basically i put a capacitor on every pin of the controller 'til i discovered one that had an effect that was useful).. it ends up basically letting the FET instantaneously reach threshhold voltage and it logarithmically ramps the voltage from about 2V up to the set voltage.. it's really nice.

aaah on the assembled KIU.. that makes more sense.. well that works out better for me i can actually charge for labor (vs $0).. still $60 would be a very fair price for a complete and assembled driver for mag.. i think we are going to charge $60 for the basic and $70 for the advanced (with the temp control). 

There are so many bulbs and battery options.. it's not difficult to come up with a close match that works exceptionally well with the hotdriver.. but with the PIR you don't have to even come close.. so you can have a universal battery and run many options for lamps.. i sure have no problem with that! 

What pertinax said about blowing $9 lamps! it was the fire under My butt to finally get the design operational.. blew three 1185s within 4 days.. and decided i'm not going to run unregulated hotwires anymore. 

-awr


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## winny (Jan 26, 2006)

*Re: PIR 1 (Programable Incandecent Regulator) beta testing thread*

EDIT: Deleted

I'll answer/respond on everything else tomorrow, or rather later this morning. It's 0:09 AM here and school starts in less than 8 hours so I'm off to bed.


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## andrewwynn (Jan 26, 2006)

*Re: PIR 1 (Programable Incandecent Regulator) beta testing thread*

funny.. like butterfiles in a stomach.. swamped just means too much work not enough time in a day.. but you can also say 'flooded' with work as well. He sent me an email a couple days ago to say happy birthday but before that didn't hear from him for a couple of weeks. 

-awr


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## winny (Jan 27, 2006)

*Re: PIR 1 (Programable Incandecent Regulator) beta testing thread*

I finally got a reply from Lunarmodule saying that he had not received it yet. Perhaps we will have to see how much my $8 is worth for registering the letter. I guess nothing if they have actually lost it. "It's on the other side of the Atlantic Ocean, why should it arrive? You can't do anything anyway, you are just an individual, and only 21 years old with no suit." would probably be Swedish postal services response. Their service and prices are just excellent!

Anyway, it will hopefully arrive to him soon so he can test it and send it on. I have to work out a new route and write a HOWTO for the regulator because there are certain conditions that will ruin it, like reversed polarity, that my testers will have to avoid. A picture of how to connect it might be good too.

As I warned you before, school has started and has taken a lot of my time but the production version is getting closer and we have even discussed how and when we should build the PIR 2, featuring voltage boost. 
We will probably settle exactly how big the PIR 1 is going to be and what features it will have by the end if this weekend so that the pre-order can start. As it looks right now, you will be able to have your name/whatever together with your serial on the board, written in silkscreen (like the "MonsterMag 1" text in the pictures). If we get 500 orders, there is no way we are going to hand-solder it ourselves though, meaning no silkscreen.

I think that's all for now. I'm off to troubleshooting the remaining regulators.

Take care!
/Andreas


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## Lunarmodule (Jan 27, 2006)

*Re: PIR 1 (Programable Incandecent Regulator) beta testing thread*

Hello hello hello  

Just a quick note to relay that I'm alive and well and have been as AWR wrote absolutely flooded lately with all manner of demands on my time and energy. I still managed to sneak in a little CPF browsing but recently have been burning the candle at both ends to make up for a little buying spree. I will make another trip to the Post Office today and check on PIR-1's arrival. I already have a few makeshift setups to test with, first will be WA 1274 with 3 series LiIOn.


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## winny (Jan 27, 2006)

Lunarmodule,

Here are some pictures for you.


First, a schematic diagram of how the regulator is connected. As you can see, the bulb plus and battery plus is common which you can also see if you look at the board.








Second, a picture of the board itself and what wires are connected to it.






If you are uncertain, please e-mail or PM me before trying it.

Before I forgot: Please measure the resistance between BULB- and BAT-. It should be very high.


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## andrewwynn (Jan 28, 2006)

is the switch common ground or + so that if it's remote we can short to the body or the bat+? (i.e. using the mag switch I have my hotdriver set up so that i use the original 'output' of the mag switch to just power up the regulator.. one-wire kinda nice that way. 

-awr


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## winny (Jan 28, 2006)

Wops! I forgot that...

One of the swtich cables goes to battery plus. I'll redo the pictures.


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## Lunarmodule (Jan 31, 2006)

Andreas,

Thanks for the excellent pics and instructions! I love the annotation concerning the solitary blue wire and terminal. Indeed, have a soldering iron and sufficient skills. Unfortunately, there has been no sight of the package here yet, but I have been keeping close watch for it. 

There is one terrible possibility to consider, which has happened only twice before (very rare), where in some continental US sort facility a parcel destined for the islands was transferred to seagoing shipment instead of the par usual air delivery means. That means 3 weeks from mainland US to Hawaii by boat. A package from custom builder Fivemega sent by Priority service which normally is 3-5 days showed up a month later, myself feeling sick about not purchasing insurance for the valuable package and no recourse. 

I am concerned due to the amount of time elapsed from your original ship date and reiterate apologies for not being as current posting to the thread as I had in the past when there was far more abundant free (computer) time, yet my interest in this project has remained substantial. I can only hope a nice suprise awaits me at the next postal delivery. I will post immediately and send direct communication to you when it arrives.


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## Lunarmodule (Feb 2, 2006)

:wow: *PIR-1 HAS ARRIVED !!!!
*
I just wanted to post this quick note to announce the arrival of the package containing the well-travelled PIR-1. I spent time tonight reading over the thread carefully for a how-to self education and am compiling a list of questions. I will start testing full steam by Friday and give it generous time this weekend. Very excited it finally made it to my door, I was beginning to think it was lost...

I had intended to get to bed much earlier but the subsequent arrival of some new SF lamp assemblies led to some diversion, as did posting to CPF 

Questions coming via post and/or PM


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## WhiteHot (Feb 2, 2006)




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## winny (Feb 6, 2006)

Steve? Hello? Anyone? :candle:


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## Lunarmodule (Feb 6, 2006)

Hello Andreas,

I have some preliminary results from my tinkering. I should have posted this sooner but working with the PIR has been more involving than I thought. To begin, the transistor soldering is fine, all the board connections are good. Unit powered up exactly as you described. 

Took some time to decipher the Morse code like voltage programming sequences, but like a UI on a light, it becomes intuitive and easy. Same with low voltage shutoff.

The GOOD news, well GREAT news is it works as described, and its just beyond words why someone would NOT want a programmable unit like this on an incan light. Its just awesome to be able to program a voltage, select a desired amount of overdrive, and not worry about instaflashes from the soft start. 

Entered voltage set point mode and configured it for my first test setpoint, a Welch Allyn 1111 set for 7.0Vbulb with 8.4V battery and 13.8VDC bench supply. Next was 6.9V for use with a SF MN16 lamp assembly with same DC power sources. Also SF MN21 lamp assembly at up to 7.5V (spec is 6.9V).

You were right I had to alter the setpoint values to get the desired Vbulb readings with my DVM. Over that hurdle, its amazing how consistent the PIR maintains voltage. Transistor did get rather warm the touch, but a little fan cooling was used for the run bench anyhow. 

Results: incredible. Soft start is noticeable, my notepad is almost indecipherable from scribbling values of DVM readings, and unit holds its programmed Vbulb setpoint regardless of input voltage. The first time I tried the bench power supply I was speechless. 13.8V into the PIR, into a lamp spec'ed for 6V, overdriven to 7.2V. This is just utterly amazing. I'm wishing for an oscilloscope to visualize the inital start up ramping. 

I was able to run a battery/bulb combo for 3 hours worth of of runtime cycles (7.2V on a SF MN21 lamp) whereas using direct drive with the same battery pack I had instaflashed a bulb on 2 occasions. The soft start allowed me to run a higher voltage (more overdrive) than I could before, when initial fully charged battery had a high probability of instaflash before settling down to the Vbulb region I was able to just plug into the PIR...
Theres so much more to write, I'd like to get it more organized and have some suggestions relating to PIR additions.

Its not a problem at all to not be able to undo settings and revert to previous or default, but I would LOVE to see the ability to store settings in memory for specific recall for on-the-fly bulb changes using the power switch. Its very easy to change settings once used to the routine, but coupled with the GUI interface (I'm DYING to try THAT) for more in-depth programming the setting memory feature through the power switch would be phenominal. 

Another suggestion is the possibility of incorporating the option of an LED fuel gauge output that could be mounted somewhere on the light body, even a single color changing LED, to indicate proximity to the low voltage shutoff. For a layer of safety with LiIOn batteries, a temp sensing circuit with programmable shutoff point (via GUI). 

My apologies for not posting this sooner, but I got more than carried away with this thing. The only downside is I lack the fabrication skills to physically integrate the unit into a light, so my testing has been on a bench and disassembled lights. Thank God for jumper leads!

Its now ridiculously late, I'm starting to get blurry vision, especially from squinting at bulbs for extended times. One thing is for certain, PIR-1 works like a charm. I need several of these without a doubt. I'm very grateful to see this materialize but now I'm "ruined" in that I cant go back to direct drive and be happy with just that...

I would like at least a day or two more to try some more bulb combinations, then I can post an AWR type reference post with some organized data. One thing I have accomplished that I think has never been systematically done before is specifically pushed the Surefire MN21 30W lamp farther into overdrive than I thought possible. I had done it via direct drive previously at the expense of a few blown lamps, with the PIR I can actually run at a higher voltage than direct drive would allow. I'm likely throwing away 75% of bulb life hours doing this, but its great to know it can be selected as an option for short term use. 

The neatest application of on-the-fly selectable memories for voltage setpoint is a range of operation for a single bulb. Like gears in a transmission, select between underdrive for extended runtime, spec voltage, and one or 2 overdrive stages. 


:sweat:Signing off for now, update tomorrow :sleepy:


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## winny (Feb 6, 2006)

Thanks for your input and for the kind words!  
I'm glad to hear that you liked it.

Everything you said you wanted as additional features can easily be implemented.

Did you notice any flicker when you ran it for extended periods?


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## Lunarmodule (Feb 7, 2006)

Hello Andreas,

I am incredibly thrilled at the performance of the PIR-1. This is so much better than I expected, it represents what a PIC-type user interface microcontroller that sets variable light levels is compared to a crude, simplistic mechanical two stage switch with a resistor to accomplish similar functions.

My favorite feature is the soft start. It is an absolute joy to watch the bulb ramp up nicely to full brightness. Is the time preset to 500msec or so? Setting my DVM on the most accurate fixed range for current and starting the bulb repeatedly it seems the current at startup NEVER even approaches run current, typically about 1/3 run current after a 1/4 sec elapsed is a rough figure. I cant tell you how sorely needed this feature by itself is. It should do wonders for extending bulb life to compensate for my overdrive applications.

I have encountered some flickering issues, specifically when running on a battery source that approaches the programmed cutoff voltage. I can see increases in current draw from the battery (200-300mA or so in surges) as the voltage falls to less than 200mV from the cutoff voltage. On occasion, this mild modulation of light output will continue until the voltage drops just beneath the programmed setpoint, then it seems the regulator drops the current from the battery ever so slightly, allowing the voltage to rise to within 100mV above the setpoint. This continues for a few minutes until voltage falls approx 300mV below the programmed setpoint. I dont find it annoying or bothersome at all, however, its noticeable but minor. Its like a high speed dimming effect instead of a flicker.

A suggestion here is, in the absence of the fuel gauge LED indicator I mentioned previously, having the lamp flash a certian number of times as battery voltage approaches programmed cutoff. Naturally this could/should be an element of the programmable GUI, it could flash twice at first hitting within 10% of low cutoff, then once every 15 or or how ever many seconds within 3% before it winks out.

There are some other things this brings to my mind. One is, an intelligent memory for battery voltage history over the course of the run of the light. In conjunction with preset memories for a battery/bulb combo as I mentioned in the previous post, the PIR could remember the initial voltage and runtime and perhaps switch either automatically or prompt for manual selection (program preference via GUI) to switch to an underdrive voltage to increase runtime. It would be a novelty (for me, anyways) to have the regulator be able to store and recall runtime in minutes for a charge on rechargeables or total use on primaries. This of course is a non-essential item and my intention is not to overcomplicate things, but the PIR's raw capabilities -- i.e. an intelligent interface between battery and incan bulb -- just beg to offer things unheard of or impossible in the past. What you have here is the incandescent equivalent of the Indium Smart, especially with the GUI PC programmability.

Absolutely outstanding, I'm now running this thing constantly. I left it overnight running a SF P60 6 volt lamp with an underdrive from my 13.8V bench supply as a night light.

I have many more notes and ideas of possible implementations. I would very much like to know if I can download your proto GUI programmer to have a look at what you have so far.

I'm just overwhelmed. I've been completely swamped with all manner of demands on my time in the last few weeks and it seems everything gets pushed back to the last minute, including posting to the thread. But spending time with the PIR has managed to push other things out of the way, my interest in my mod projects has been given a whole new lease on life, a new enthusiasm. This is great work! For certain I've gotten a great deal of bench testing done and today I want to attempt to mount it to a battery pack for one of my project lights and see how that goes.

My compliments to you, my friend, for all your extra long hours, perseverence, and dedication has produced something absolutely remarkable, this is an absolute GEM. It really WORKS!! Your sweat and sleepless nights have achieved a breakthough design.


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## Lunarmodule (Feb 7, 2006)

Flickering is a little more noticeable with the two low voltage bulbs I'm trying for curiosity's sake, but I was informed that the sample I have had a little programming glitch causing this which has been eliminated. 

This thing continues to amaze me, it really is "dial-a-volt". With a simple input sequence of tapping the power switch to select sequential LED flashes corresponding to a numeric value for the voltage setpoint, you simply select your desired voltage, and the rest is automatic. The soft start is just awesome, very nice gentle ramping of current and voltage for the initial 1/2 second of startup. Its almost silly how you can attach almost ANY DC power source of higher voltage, and PIR effortlessly maintains the desired output voltage to the bulb. Very little heat generated by the unit. I should post a photo of the Surefire P60 6 Volt lamp assembly connected to an Optima 12V automotive starting battery I have in front of me. That was just for grins. 

More later......


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## winny (Feb 8, 2006)

I'm mostly worried that you noticed that the transistor ran hot and you used a fan for cooling it. In the middle of the night, the choice of transistor with a bit higher Ron but built-in temperature protection seamed like a good idea. Running a 6 V 30 W lamp is way more current than our 12 V 20 W drew and measuring the temperature using a finger is not very scientific. Bare with us, the production version will not need any cooling for you general use.



Lunarmodule said:


> My favorite feature is the soft start. It is an absolute joy to watch the bulb ramp up nicely to full brightness. Is the time preset to 500msec or so? Setting my DVM on the most accurate fixed range for current and starting the bulb repeatedly it seems the current at startup NEVER even approaches run current, typically about 1/3 run current after a 1/4 sec elapsed is a rough figure. I cant tell you how sorely needed this feature by itself is. It should do wonders for extending bulb life to compensate for my overdrive applications.



As I might have explained earlier, this wasn't a big thing when we constructed it. We understood that whitout soft-start, it wouldn't work, so we simply implemented it and didn't think much about it. I'm glad people find it useful.  



Lunarmodule said:


> I have encountered some flickering issues, specifically when running on a battery source that approaches the programmed cutoff voltage.



Isn't that a pity. The day after it was shipped, we looked though the code just to check some stuff and we figured out why it was flickering. It was a 404 error, meaning that the error was 404 mm from the screen - us. A little logic error cause the regulator to go nuts for a cycle every now and then. It's fixed now.




Lunarmodule said:


> A suggestion here is, in the absence of the fuel gauge LED indicator I mentioned previously, having the lamp flash a certian number of times as battery voltage approaches programmed cutoff. Naturally this could/should be an element of the programmable GUI, it could flash twice at first hitting within 10% of low cutoff, then once every 15 or or how ever many seconds within 3% before it winks out.



That's easy! Consider it done.



Lunarmodule said:


> There are some other things this brings to my mind. One is, an intelligent memory for battery voltage history over the course of the run of the light.



That too.



Lunarmodule said:


> In conjunction with preset memories for a battery/bulb combo as I mentioned in the previous post, the PIR could remember the initial voltage and runtime and perhaps switch either automatically or prompt for manual selection (program preference via GUI) to switch to an underdrive voltage to increase runtime.



That's a little bit more tricky, but if the runtime would be known, or the battery chemistry and number of cells then why not...




Lunarmodule said:


> This of course is a non-essential item and my intention is not to overcomplicate things, but the PIR's raw capabilities -- i.e. an intelligent interface between battery and incan bulb -- just beg to offer things unheard of or impossible in the past. What you have here is the incandescent equivalent of the Indium Smart, especially with the GUI PC programmability.



Hardware- and uC-capability-wise, the sky is the limit. The only real limit is how much time one can take from school to develop new functions.




Lunarmodule said:


> I have many more notes and ideas of possible implementations. I would very much like to know if I can download your proto GUI programmer to have a look at what you have so far.



Oh gee... Well, it wont be ready this week, that's for sure. Currently, we are fine-tuning the last hardware things and we will hopefully ship it for production tonight. After that it's the new software. Then the GUI will be done. I don't want to crush your dreams but the GUI probably wont be ready upon the initial launch but hopefully shortly after.



Lunarmodule said:


> I'm just overwhelmed. I've been completely swamped with all manner of demands on my time in the last few weeks and it seems everything gets pushed back to the last minute, including posting to the thread.



Think nothing of it. The delays from my side kept you guys waiting so I know by now how things can come in the way no matter how important you think it is.




Lunarmodule said:


> My compliments to you, my friend, for all your extra long hours, perseverence, and dedication has produced something absolutely remarkable, this is an absolute GEM. It really WORKS!! Your sweat and sleepless nights have achieved a breakthough design.



Sleepless nights is the word! I'll post some funny production pictures some day that makes you wounder if it's AM or PM. But I learned one thing, 8 hours at night with coffee and brighter lights for everyone as motivation gets way more things done than 8 hours of enforced work or school.  :sleepy:  :sleepy:   

Stay tuned everyone! The first sign-up is around the corner!


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## Sway (Feb 8, 2006)

Ready and waiting, keep up the good work guys!

Later
Kelly


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## andrewwynn (Feb 8, 2006)

Do you remember what the Ron is of the FET you have? I could send one of my ludicrously low models to Steve (lunarmodule)... it should be pretty easy to trade.. I am a bit curious about the heat generation.. Steve.. measure the voltage drop on the FET with those high-power designs and see what it says.. or is that not possible with the switch-mode used? unless an actual temp. was taken, i'd be surprised if it was really in need of forced cooling.. 'warm' to a finger is a looot different than 'too hot' for an FET.. they can typically handle 150C+ On the one i burned up in testing.. it actually melted the solder off the heat sink!

Soft start is going to be a big catch-phrase for lighting from this point out. I find it almost humorous that MOST decent LED lights use regulation but MOST incan (by like a 100:1 ratio compared to LED) are NOT regulated, though they really need it just as badly. SS will likely double the effective bulb life!

Love the 404 error line.. reminds me of in the Navy.. a pilot putting on the 'gripe sheet' (list of problems with the flight).. "replace R-10 unit".. but when R10 is written w/o the dash it looks like R. I. O. (radio intercept officer).. the back-seater on an F14). 

Gonna make me envious with the trick low-bat warning.. my 'low battery warning' is when the light SHUTS OFF.. kudos!

Funny comments about the productivity at night and motivation.. been there done that. I'm hoping that My sooner release of hotdriver won't be too big of a hiccup in your plans.. big world with enough room for both of us is my philosophy, this is a stellar project that i can't wait to see out there in real lights people use every day... i can say the same about hotdriver.. definitely takes a different route to achive simlar goals... but you need to use a screwdriver to change voltage on the hotdriver, and maybe 50x lifespan on that adjustment. 

Keep up the good work and kep us posted. 

-awr


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## wquiles (Feb 8, 2006)

andrewwynn said:


> Soft start is going to be a big catch-phrase for lighting from this point out. I find it almost humorous that MOST decent LED lights use regulation but MOST incan (by like a 100:1 ratio compared to LED) are NOT regulated, though they really need it just as badly. SS will likely double the effective bulb life!


I have always wondered about that. We actually have almost too many options for drivers for LED's, but no production ready modules for hotwires yet. Simply amazing, almost as if the hotwires are in the "dark ages"  





andrewwynn said:


> I'm hoping that My sooner release of hotdriver won't be too big of a hiccup in your plans.. big world with enough room for both of us is my philosophy, this is a stellar project that i can't wait to see out there in real lights people use every day...


That is exactly how I see things. I want both of you to succed and I want to help both of you as much as possible. I feel that competition is a healthy thing as it brings forth better and better solutions for all of us in the flashaholic community 

Will


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## andrewwynn (Feb 8, 2006)

I'm just glad that winny chose to go such a different route.. so we have such different monsters.. The programmable bit is stellar.. changing the voltage w/o a DMM.. kudos. that is awesome. Since by in large in either case, they really are meant for a set n forget solution, my take is it's not that necessary.. but that's the way to go in the PIR solution for sure.. silly to have an analog input... and.. since the PIR can run a wide range of voltage from a higher battery voltage, it does make a lot more sense to make it easy to change.. where the hotdriver has a very different philosophy that really makes it a 'set and forget' design.. which will stay the same 'til you move it to a different host, for exmaple. 

-awr


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## chrwe (Feb 9, 2006)

Hi Lunarmodule,

what I'd be really curious about is if *protected* Li-Ions are able to power a high current lamp (e.g. WA1185) via the PIR.

Do you have some Li-Ions available to test this?

It would be quite sweet to have 6 serialized 14500s and a Wa1185 in a 2D Mag. There'd be no voltage sag until the undervoltage protection kicks in (if the current protection does not kick in earlier).


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## WhiteHot (Feb 10, 2006)

Lunar just informed me that he sent the PIR off to me. I should have it by this weekend. Unfortunately, I am traveling for work all next week so I wont have time to test them until the week of the 20th  The good news is that the travel for work will be the end of a large project I have been working on 12+ hours a day so I will be able to do some good testing of the PIR


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## andrewwynn (Feb 10, 2006)

14500s should work.. better to use 8x to bring the current down a little more.. but starting to get into scary Vbat levels.. you wouldn't be able to use protected cells.. 1.5C = 1.05A.. and even with 6x14500 the current would be closer to 1.6A. (it would work with raw cells). 

-awr


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## winny (Feb 10, 2006)

andrewwynn said:


> Do you remember what the Ron is of the FET you have?



It should be about 20 mohm. Without switch-losses that would be 5^2*0,02 = 0.5 W. That shouldn't be any problem. Well, electronics isn't always so simple.

However, the production version will have transistors with Ron = 2 mohm and the switch-losses are as minimized as possible (touch wood).

I concur on what awr said about the protected cells. As long as the cells can deliver the power needed, you will not trip the over current protection in your cells.







The boards where sent off to production today and should be here in two weeks. 
We had to move down to 0603 components instead of 0805 to make it fit so the soldering will take some more time and skills this time.

So, here it is:
PIR 1 sign up thread


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## andrewwynn (Feb 10, 2006)

did you get the outer diameter to 30mm to fit into KIU and space for holes? it will be very nice to fit it into the KIU with maybe just a hole cut for the FET to stick out. 

-awr


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## NewBie (Feb 12, 2006)

winny said:


> It should be about 20 mohm. Without switch-losses that would be 5^2*0,02 = 0.5 W. That shouldn't be any problem. Well, electronics isn't always so simple.
> 
> However, the production version will have transistors with Ron = 2 mohm and the switch-losses as minimized as possible (touch wood).




You may want to look at the rise time on the MOSFET gate. If you have a weak driver here, you'll be burning extra power during the transition times.

If this is the case, lower on resistance MOSFETs will typically have higher gate charges (Qgtot), and cause the transition times to increase, and burning up considerably more power.

In linear regulator, such as Andrew's, he isn't switching the MOSFET off and on, so he can get away with MOSFETs with really high gate charges.


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## winny (Feb 12, 2006)

I know. The production version has got a 2 A MOSFET driver so high switch frequencies with low losses should not be a problem.

We solved the problem in the beta-version by using a very low switch frequency as the only problem it posed was a little more audible noise (it was still relatively quiet).


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## winny (Feb 12, 2006)

andrewwynn said:


> did you get the outer diameter to 30mm to fit into KIU and space for holes?



Oooops... We got it to 30 mm but when I think about it, I'm not sure both screws will fit. I have to check.
If there isn't any space left, you could always glue it, although it's not the best solution.


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## andrewwynn (Feb 12, 2006)

the 30mm is a good thing.. i had considered if i had to i could relocate a chip or two if needed to make the holes (esp. if just a resistor or cap). Did you try cutting a hole through the KIU to fit the FET up through? (that would be my plan of attack to fit the PIR into the KIU).

-awr


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## winny (Feb 12, 2006)

awr,

The beta-boards was designed before I had even heard of the KIU-sockets. Therefore, you will have a hard time fitting both the beta-regulator and screws in the socket.
The production version is different from the beta version. We opted for a surface-mounted D2PAK transistor so nothing will stick up. You can read about the layout in the sign-up thread.


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## andrewwynn (Feb 12, 2006)

excellent.. you got a DPAK to fit inside of 30mm.. that's all ya need to get it to fit inside KIU... superglue stuck like hell to the magswitch.. it would be very likely you could just glue it on if the screws do not fit. 

-awr


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## Monster (Feb 14, 2006)

_Hey Winny, I have just joined CPF and I don't know much about Elec. Eng.. But I do know that I will buy one of your regulators when available. It seems that a compulsion to build a powerful and efficient multi-use light has over taken me...when I was given two fresh 11.1V Li Ion battery packs with 6 Sony 26650 cells per pack. _

_That was a while back and those cells are old. What thoughts do you have about using Li Ion cells with your PIR? Better yet what do think about the new Li Ion technology from A123 Battery Systems? _

http://www.a123systems.com/html/tech/power.html

_Seems like a revolutionary power source improvement...for flashlight applications, to say the leasts, and Dewalt will be saturating the market with battery packs (36V) containing these cells in a couple of months with the new Nirvana line of tools. _

_Anyway, please put me on the list for a regulator and let me know what you think about the new cells if you have a moment sometime......._


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## andrewwynn (Feb 14, 2006)

i've done some research on the extremely high-power LiON cells.. just like these ones but the 'molicel' version used in the milwaukee V28 power packs.. the problem is that to really get the power out of the cells they need extremely high current and low voltage (per cell).. so.. when you put enough cells together to get the voltage that makes the drivers like mine or winny's work.. you no longer have any advantage over cells that already exist (i.e. what is the point of a cell that can push 10C or 20C when you only need 2C?).. 

I think Winny's first batch of 40 of the PIR are already sold out. .i'm looking forward to seeing some first-hand.. they are looking like absolutely a winner. 

If you don't need the functions of the PIR that the hotdriver doesn't have (like programability from the switch, high voltage differential Vbat to Vbulb).. the hotdriver will be available soon and is a pretty close cousin to the PIR in practice. 

-awr

update.. seems that winny doubled the batch to 80 and plenty left.. beating me to the punch.. good job winny . My boards come in in a day or two.. building starts this week, this is exciting to see the two parallel projects going.. i will love to see a showdown of sorts.. i.e. the PIR v hotdriver showdown .. in certain lights it'll be an obvious no-brainer hands-down win for the PIR... but in the close-call lights like the 1185 from 10.8 battery.. very tough call.


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## winny (Feb 14, 2006)

Monster,

There sholdn't be any problems using li-ions, unless you do as I did, made a 6P2S pack and overdischarge it. As long as you do it right, use matched batteries and set the cut-off correctly, you should be ok.

Those cells look awesome!

You can sign up yourself here

awr,

I would agree with you here. If you have a matched pair of batteries and bulb, your hotdriver is more fool-proof although I would not depend my life on either of them.


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## wtraymond (Feb 18, 2006)

I'm confused. Did the beta testing end? I never received a board to test and now you're selling production boards.

Uh oh, I better go sign up. They're almost gone!


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## winny (Feb 18, 2006)

wtraymond,

I understand why you are confused. No, it didn't end, but after Lunarmodule had tested the beta regulator we knew that the concept worked and all the issues that remained was software-related so we shiped it for production after some changes. The reason why there hasn't been any updates here is because WhiteHot was out of town this week and can't do any tests with it until this weekend, as you probably already have read. We still have time to pass it around to two or possibly three more people if they hurry before the production version starts to ship and any changes that my beta testers will come up with can be incorporated. Even after that it's not to late to do any changes because they are upgradable via USB and serial port.

I hope for some good input from WhiteHot while we wait for our components to arrive.


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## WhiteHot (Feb 18, 2006)

I am back from my trip and have still not received a package from Lunar.


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## winny (Feb 18, 2006)

That's stange. He told me he sent it either Friday last week or this Monday, I can't recall. WhiteHot, should you or I PM him and check?


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## WhiteHot (Feb 18, 2006)

Ya, I will shoot him a PM. Hopefully he has a tracking number.


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## Lunarmodule (Feb 19, 2006)

I just replied to the PM from WhiteHot, for some reason it was marked return to sender and arrived at my PO Box address yesterday. I was shocked to discover it today. Will confirm correct address and re-send Monday with DC number. It had been over a week since I sent it and I just assumed everything was moving along. Certainly not the first time I've encountered some serious postal anomalies.

I'm very pleased the response has been so positive for the PIR sales. After trying it firsthand I can personally vouch for the amazing capabilities it has. From the very first soft start moment (I must have repeated that 20 times or more just to watch the bulb ramp up gently in brightness to the setpoint....) and regestering the desired voltage setpoint AT THE BULB (seeing the reading on the DVM exactly as I had hoped my Morse code like programming would accomplish) I knew this component would be a grand slam home run for incandescent DIYers everywhere. I'm very anxious to see the GUI programming module and have a myriad of possibilities for it in mind. 

Congratulations again Andreas on your tremendous accomplishment and exceptional effort. Its hard for me to believe you are balancing a full curriculum with this as a side project. Remarkable. Kudos, my friend!


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## winny (Feb 19, 2006)

Very strange. This first beta regulator seems to have been cursed when it comes to shipping it. I'm sure you will work it out during the next week.

Lunarmodule,

Thanks for your kind words again! I didn't expect so many comments on this one, whether bad or good, but all in all, people have been very encouraging.
If you by "full curriculum" mean school, it's perfectly all right. Because I have passed (well, almost) the first two and a half years, we don't have any more math, just our EE courses. Therefore, they don't require a lot of intellectual capacity from you. "Have you ever heard about something called a DC motor?" my teacher asks and most in my class shakes their heads. What they do require from you is to turn/flip papers (what expression do you use over there?) in terms of writing papers and homework that takes a lot of time. So I can't say that I have used up my brain when I get home and don't feel like doing some _real_ EE then, it's just that you often have a lot of things to do and get home very late.


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## andrewwynn (Feb 19, 2006)

your story about the first at school then at home reminds me of being in the nuclear navy training and learning 'about' the EE stuff but then going home to work on practical projects on my own. I built a car alarm in my dorm room.. i incorporated a comparator that watched the Vbat and if it dipped (from say an attempted start of the car) would set off the alarm.. it was so neat to see the alarm trip itself on the work bench when my little fridge near by turned on, causing a voltage sag that made it through the AC-DC transformer supplying the breadboard!

Nice to see the project chugging along nicely.. and it will be neat to see one inside the KIU and operating.. i didn't look at where the wires are attached closely yet to see how i would wire it up.. mine has the bulb wires in the center to match where the hole is in the KIU, but there should be enough room to route the wires any way they need. 

I can't wait to do a head-to-head with the hotdriver.

-awr


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## petrev (Feb 20, 2006)

Hi - Will these units work in a SureFire-M6 in any possible way ? Tail switch ?
Any ideas guys ? Thinking about protected Li cells soft starting ?

Cheers
Pete


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## andrewwynn (Feb 20, 2006)

you could build one into the tailcap simlar to how i'm building my M6 regulator.. if you build the battery pack with a solid threaded rod top to bottom it brings the 'pos' back to the tailcap.. you can wire from the 'pos' side of the batteries with a wire past the batteries back to get power to the tailcap.. Winny would have to answer if you can keep the 'switch' hard wired so that you can use the tailcap connection to operate the light (i.e. if the switch is 'on'.. can you interrupt power and will soft-start and such still work). 

The soft start should solve the problem with protected cells.. I would work out a solution with 2x3 17500 like my M6x6 pack i made.

-awr


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## petrev (Feb 20, 2006)

Hi AWR

 Re-Posted to correct Thread - Sorry for the intrusion . . .
is this the M6-Reg you are talking about 
http://candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=101677
?
Are you going to be providing this as a mod or as a set of plans (final parts list and diags ) by any chance as it seems just the ticket - 2x3 17500 drop in holder with soft start.
Tried following the post but not being totally technical - just an average bodger - got a bit lost and cannot tell what stage you are at. Hope I'm not asking too many questions that have already been covered somewhere !



andrewwynn said:


> . . . (i.e. if the switch is 'on'.. can you interrupt power and will soft-start and such still work).


You do seem to have spotted the big question with this board for use with an M6 ! Will it work hard wired "on" from a cold power up ?

Thanks 
Pete




andrewwynn said:


> you could build one into the tailcap simlar to how i'm building my M6 regulator.. if you build the battery pack with a solid threaded rod top to bottom it brings the 'pos' back to the tailcap.. you can wire from the 'pos' side of the batteries with a wire past the batteries back to get power to the tailcap.. Winny would have to answer if you can keep the 'switch' hard wired so that you can use the tailcap connection to operate the light (i.e. if the switch is 'on'.. can you interrupt power and will soft-start and such still work).
> 
> The soft start should solve the problem with protected cells.. I would work out a solution with 2x3 17500 like my M6x6 pack i made.
> 
> -awr


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## andrewwynn (Feb 20, 2006)

don't want to hijack winny's thread.. ask questions over there i'll be glad to answer :-D

-awr


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## petrev (Feb 20, 2006)

Ooops - Sorry




andrewwynn said:


> don't want to hijack winny's thread.. ask questions over there i'll be glad to answer :-D
> 
> -awr


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## winny (Feb 20, 2006)

andrewwynn said:


> I built a car alarm in my dorm room.. i incorporated a comparator that watched the Vbat and if it dipped (from say an attempted start of the car) would set off the alarm.. it was so neat to see the alarm trip itself on the work bench when my little fridge near by turned on, causing a voltage sag that made it through the AC-DC transformer supplying the breadboard!



Cool! Did it work or did someone nick it anyway?




andrewwynn said:


> I can't wait to do a head-to-head with the hotdriver.



Neither can I. 

About the PIR 1 and the M6, people have asked me via PM before and it should work if it fits. Could someone that have access to an M6 please do some measurements and see if you in some magic way can fit a 30 mm thick and 10 mm long cylinder somewhere. The programing will be more difficult if you don't have access to the power switch in the same way but sure, it can be modified to operate without a software power button. If there is a demand for it, we can make a special software version for this application.


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## petrev (Feb 20, 2006)

winny said:


> . . .
> 
> About the PIR 1 and the M6, people have asked me via PM before and it should work if it fits. Could someone that have access to an M6 please do some measurements and see if you in some magic way can fit a 30 mm thick and 10 mm long cylinder somewhere. The programing will be more difficult if you don't have access to the power switch in the same way but sure, it can be modified to operate without a software power button. If there is a demand for it, we can make a special software version for this application.




Hi - 
Looks like trying 2sx3p rcr123 - 7.2V (2250mAh) in a special holder would fit (maybe) and so would 3sx17670 for 10.8V (1600mAh) dropped down by your PIR1. I don't know which would give the longest run time ? or the best fit for power or . . .

Could a small switch be fitted to the board for programming purposes ? or a dip switch ? or a jumper and temporary fly lead for prog. ? ? ? or dunno !

Cheers
Pete


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## winny (Feb 20, 2006)

The easiest solution would be to skip all one-button-programming and do everything via GUI. If you know that you will use it for your M6 only and with one type of batteries, we can pre-program it for that until the USB-programming kit is ready.

If it fits, you can specify that you want it set up for M6 use when you make your order. You need to specify what drive and cutoff voltage you want as well.


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## petrev (Feb 20, 2006)

OK - Sounds like a way to go - I'll sign up for one and try and find the best solution with some more reading etc. How long do I have to work out the final config ?

Also - can't quite work out what the wiring would be with the tail switch ? Earth line ? Pos line ? Umm give me a clue

Cheers Pete


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## winny (Feb 20, 2006)

What do you mean with final design? If it fits, it fits. Then we only have to develop a new software. It shouldn't take more than one day.


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## Sway (Feb 20, 2006)

Winny,

Will this first round of PIR's come with USB or switch programming? 

Also will user information/owners manual be posted or provided with the PIR's?

Thanks!
Kelly


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## petrev (Feb 20, 2006)

Final config. eg Batteries and output Voltage - More for me than you maybe.
Also trying to get my head around how to wire your PIR1 in as normally the neg is common and switched by the tail switch - my M6 arrives later this week hopefully so then I may see what I'm talking about and stop guessing. Do you see my quandry - I'm sure everything is very simple and I'm just missing something - let me know what you think.
Cheers Pete




winny said:


> What do you mean with final design? If it fits, it fits. Then we only have to develop a new software. It shouldn't take more than one day.


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## winny (Feb 20, 2006)

Sway,

Both! However, the USB/serial programming kit is a piece of hardware that you either build yourself or order from us. It can certainly be still be programmed with the one-button-interface, but it's much more limited.

Of course! Once we know exactly how the interface layout will be, we can start to write a proper manual. In the meantime, you can just ask and we'll try to answer.


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## Sanny (Feb 20, 2006)

Winny,
do we really need to develop a GUI to program the PIR?
I mean it is only a matter of modifying three-four parameters like drive voltage, cutoff voltage, softstart delay, maybe low-batt warning, ...
It should be more than enough if you provide the source code with the editable parameters at the beginning of the code and a short tutorial on how to compile it and unpload it to the regulator. And for ease of use you could provide different firmwares already set for typical applications (1185, 1274, osram 50W, ...)
If you provide the source code it is more than likely, too, that the programmers among us would come up with their own improved/modified versions of your code to fit it to different applications and include other "bells and whistles". One of the strenghts of your PIR is that it is extremely flexible and versatile!


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## winny (Feb 20, 2006)

We plan for a different approach. The GUI will be partly script-based, meaning that you can implement your own functions and choose from useful presets. The GUI will be a very good thing for people who doesn't have a lot of experience and for really advanced users who for example want to make runtime graphs and log various things.

Although I personally am a big fan of open source, we have bills that needs to be paid and giving out the source code at this time would mean to sell out completely.


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## Sanny (Feb 20, 2006)

I see your point, I really have no idea how much time and money you have invested in this project.
Keep up the good work! :thumbsup:


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## winny (Feb 20, 2006)

A LOT!  

Thanks for your concerns!


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## Lunarmodule (Feb 22, 2006)

Hello all,

I REALLY should have spent more time on this thread primarily. My favorite topic, the Surefire M6. AndrewWynn and I worked together on various ideas for the M6 and it remains specific blueprint project: rechargeable power and soft start regulation integrated into the existing light. I made a pair of 3p2s R123 packs with modified Fivemega 168S parallel holders and a spacer exactly the dimensions of Winny's PIR requirements, the details are posted in a thread called "SF/M6" Post #20 onwards IIRC. My setup managed to equal stock runtimes with the elimination of dimming and significant direct drive (overdrive). Andrew took it to the next level (naturally) and came out with his 6x 17500 pack which significantly exceeds stock runtimes, but requires some tailcap mods for the slight overall length increase requirements. Nevertheless, with either power option there's room in the tail of the light for a regulation circuit. I was considering keeping it all quiet, but here's to open source ideas! I didnt want to present anything without demonstratable results, either. A good deal of my time with the PIR-1 was spent optimizing drive levels for the MN21LA. The soft start was incredibly welcome and a Godsend in many ways. Wish I had some Delrin or something I could have made a mockup holder with, because as it turns out my 3p2s R123 pack requires a rather thick 14mm spacer at the end of the pack to mate up with the tailcap switch. Perfect (generous) size for the PIR-1. Here's a pic of my and AWR's M6 battery packs:


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## Lunarmodule (Feb 22, 2006)

I've got 2 versions of each type of pack with over 30 full runtime cycles accumulated on the packs between my 2 M6es. Work and other demands on my time have sapped a lot of energy away that I would have preferred to pour into this project, which has taken a bit of a trip onto back burner land but was catapulted forward again with the arrival of the PIR-1 and reawakening of my interest. Between Andreas, Andrew, and little old me there should be some really cool mod plans and components to come down the pike in the next few months for the Surefire M6. Winny, please PM me with your preferred email address so I can send you some concepts/ideas/info/data I collected on the PIR and the M6. 

Oh, I almost forgot. The PIR is once again set sail on the stormy seas of the US Postal service Islands to Mainland channel, hoping third time is the charm for the shipping end of things. Whitehot, please PM me when it arrives I forgot to include the wiring guide I made up just for it, and IIRC voltage was set to 6.2V last FYI.


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## winny (Feb 22, 2006)

Lunarmodule,

That's excellent news! This goes totally in line with my general opinion that you can improve everything, no matter how much you paid for it in the first place. Just because it says SureFire on it doesn't mean that it can't be moded and improved!  

How would people have it set up for M6 use when it comes to programming? If you could stick with just USB-programming and have it set up from factory (my kitchen) for use with an M6 (no one-button-programming, just on or off with all the presets), it would be dead-easy. Any other ideas someone?


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## andrewwynn (Feb 22, 2006)

amen to the 'just because' and modding.. i was telling my buddy NikolaTelsa the other day that i probably put myself into a class of 'one' when i took a dremel and cut the inner 1/4 inch off of Lunarmodule's SF M6 tailcap to fit the 17500 cells in there. 

the PIR would fit no problem at all into that light.. and with the way my pack is made (see above)... There is a threaded rod that has + on it on both top and bottom.. it would be not a difficult mod at all to incorporate the PIR into an M6 once moddified with that tailcap solution. 

I wrote surefire to try to buy new tailcap pieces but they only wanted to replace under warranty.. so wquiles is making a replacement part on his lathe as a tester, and i will be ordering on the order of 100 of the tailcap fixes when i do my M6 rechargeable pack with regulator.. i would be not unwilling to sell one to somebody wishing to use the PIR vs the hotdriver (how about that for friendly competition?).

Go winny! (hey but don't sell too too many.. i need a few more hotdriver sales to get to break-even.) :-D


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## winny (Feb 23, 2006)

andrewwynn said:


> ...i probably put myself into a class of 'one' when i took a dremel and cut the inner 1/4 inch off of Lunarmodule's SF M6 tailcap to fit the 17500 cells in there.



I would +1 on that! The next level would be to buy an M6, rip its guts out and mod it like crazy with new parts and regard the original bulb's output as pathetic, just like you do with a Mag. If I become wealthily one day, I will do it.  




andrewwynn said:


> i would be not unwilling to sell one to somebody wishing to use the PIR vs the hotdriver (how about that for friendly competition?).



I could go on and tell you how much runtime you would gain and so on but it would probably lead to bad karma with DHL loosing my parcel with my PCBs, everything being delayed and all my customers will drop out, so I'll wait until I can see that everything tuned out well.
You are right, that was a very friendly offer. In fact, it's a subject more fitted for a PM. I too hope that we can be partners here more than competitors. 




andrewwynn said:


> Go winny! (hey but don't sell too too many.. i need a few more hotdriver sales to get to break-even.) :-D



+1 on that too. I don't get fat by selling regulators as long as you are around and the other way around goes for you I guess. Hmm, if I would all of the sudden "disappear" or die, AWR's assassins is to blame! Just kidding, Andrew is a nice guy!


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## WhiteHot (Feb 25, 2006)

Got it in the mail yesterday. I will be testing it on Monday when I get back to work.


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## Lunarmodule (Feb 27, 2006)

Glad to hear it finally made it! The shipping curse has been broken! Looking forward to hearing WhiteHot's impressions....

I hold AWR in the absolute highest regard for his creativity and character, and I do think of the developments in this arena seem to me to be very much a team effort atmosphere. I think of AWR and Winny being much more partners with different approaches to the same nagging incan problems. I am extremely pleased to see the attitudes of both parties so amicable and supportive of each other, rather than competitive or devisive. Cheers to both of you for that. 

The more brains working on the problems, the better! I for one am a huge proponent of open sourcing ideas for development. Nothing wrong with a little capitalism at the end to make sure there's food on the table, but other than that the free exchange of ideas and mutual support will greatly benefit the entirety of the enthusiast community, who have been crying out for the manifold performance enchancements these regulator designs bring to the (kitchen) table. 

I cant wait to see what comes next....


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## WhiteHot (Feb 27, 2006)

Setting up some tests as I type. Should have some O-scope plots and stuff tomorrow


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## WhiteHot (Feb 27, 2006)

Ok, I have some first impressions, observations, comments, and questions.

First off I should say congrats to Winny for bringing this to life. It is pretty cool and is going to have a big impact on incan hotwires. The ability to mismatch bulb/battery combos is great and the regulation is awesome. The battery cutoff is also going to be great for people using unprotected lithium cells. In the past, I have not used unprotected cells for fear of killing them by overdischarging them and this solves that problem. The soft start is great for overdriving bulbs.

Ok, my testing is going to be cut a bit short since I have another freakin work trip. After my testing is complete, I am going to send it to Andrew so that he can abuse it. I have done some preliminary bench testing tonight and it has been successful. I have a few 7.2V NiMH packs that I have been using in my ROP mods. I am going to use those for most of the tests and a bench supply to test the cutoff voltage. I have a few bulbs to use as well. I have a few 1185's, a few generic 6V 20W, a few 12V 20W, and some 6 and 12V automotive bulbs for messing with.

All of my good test equipment is at work so tonights testing was mostly playing around with the auto bulbs and the 7.2V packs. Here goes:

Hooking everything up and initial programming: First I scavenged a momentary swich from one of my other projects and soldered it up. Next, I connected an automotive socket to the bulb leads. I then connected the battery and pushed the button on the switch and to my amazement, nothing happened... which is exactlyt what should have happened since I didnt have a bulb in the socket. Guess I should have read ALL of the manual :wave: After figuring out what I should have been doing, I held the button down for about 7 seconds or so and the red LED came on. WOOHOO. Next, I stepped through the differend programming modes just to check them out and learn what everything looks like. I messed up the programming twice while I was figuring it out. No problem though, if you mess up just stare at the thing for a while and it will go back to sleep and you can start over. Take winny's advise and DO NOT SET THE PIR WITH A BULB IN THE SOCKET. Expecially while you are learning. One thing that I noticed was that the board made a high pitched sound while I was programming it. My best guess is that it was around 10 kHz.

I was going to try the 6V auto bulb out first so I set the PIR at 5.5V. I hooked everything up and pushed the button and the light came to life. The soft start was evidentr and pretty cool. There is definatley some flickering and I could see this throughout the testing. Winny says this was a bug in the beta versions that has been fixed. This is good since it would not be acceptable to many, myself included. Anyway, I checked the voltage with a cheap DMM and it was a bit high. This is to be expected I suppose since I wasnt measuring RMS. Tomorrows probing with the scope will be interesting. Winny also said these beta versions will need to be tweaked but the production versions will be right on. I then played around with Vbulb a bit and it was pretty cool. I set it to 3, 5, 7V and everything was cool. The batteries were dying so it didnt hold 7V long, I charged up the pack and wired my two packs in series. 14.4V.. yay. Pushed the button again and the bulb came to life at about 7V. Pretty cool to be able to run the same bulb off different voltages. Up to 7.5V we went. Well, the regulator went there and the bulb did too, for about 4 seconds and then dim. No instaflash though so at least the soft start was doing its job. Next was the 12V bulb. I left it set to 7.5V and, there it was when I hit the switch. Next, I bumped it up to 13V and it worked perfectly. Still slightly flickering though. BTW, it should be noted that the regulator did, indeed, hold its set voltage the entire time.

My overall impression was that it was a really design and a really lgood part for a beta version. With the tweaks that Winny says have been made, it is definately going to be a hit (it kind of already is). I am gonna most likely get a few. With the PIR and the others that will surely follow, regulation will be as common to incans as it currently is to LED's. I will do some more testing tomorrow and get some captures from the o-scope. One thing I dont have is a current shunt and I dont have time to build one. That would be interesting.

See ya tomorrow.


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## WhiteHot (Feb 28, 2006)

I have completed some additional testing today and have some results and more comments. (apologies in advance for the photos of the o-scope. my pc-link is broken)

First the general comments. The input for the switch should have a weak pullup or pulldown on it depending on whether it is active high or low. If it has one, then the value is too small because I was seeing some funkiness with the button. Also, how is the button debounced? Hardware or software? It seemed I was having problems with this as well. Also, without a bulb in my socket, it seemed that the FET was on? Is this supposed to be the case?

So I did all of my playing around with the automotive bulbs. I saw a few weird spikes in the output voltage and I didnt want to risk one of my more expensive bulbs since I blew a few of the cheapies. For all of the tests below, you are going to be looking at Vbulb. I also saw quite a bit of jitter in the PWM output. I am assuming that the PWM is interrupt driven and it seems like at times, the interrupt does not get serviced right away or possibly the interrupt gets interrupted. If the PWM is not interrupt driven then I guess some of your loops are just getting hung up.

So the first test I did was to set the regulator for about 12V with a 12V bulb in the socket and 14.4V worth of NiMh sub-c's. In the figure below, you can see the soft start which is apparent by the increase in duty cycle. I didnt get the whole thing since I wanted to emphasize the beginning.





Next, you can see the regulator plugging away with the settings from above.





I then turned the voltage down on the regulator to about 6V or so. I swapped the bulb for a 6V bulb and you can see the decrease in duty cycle to give the 6V or so.





Next, I took out one of the 7.2V packs and left everything else the same. You can see the increase in duty cycle and the lower "on" voltage.





The next two photos show the use of a lower wattage 6V bulb so that I could use my bench supply. The first pic has a lower input volatage than the second. One thing that is really interesting to note is the RMS voltage on the scope. It changed. It shouldn't have. This is also apparent in the plots above as well.









I also tested the low voltage cutoff. I set it to 10V and it cutoff around 7V. It was consistent though so this is something that just needs to be tweaked a bit. I also noticed that if the Vin was set below Vcutoff, the regulator would work for a few seconds (5 or so) and then cut out again.

If anyone has any questions let me know.


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## wquiles (Feb 28, 2006)

Outstanding work on the review and the graphs 

Will


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## winny (Feb 28, 2006)

WhiteHot said:


> First the general comments. The input for the switch should have a weak pullup or pulldown on it depending on whether it is active high or low. If it has one, then the value is too small because I was seeing some funkiness with the button.



Good question. I have to check it up. I can't remember right now.




WhiteHot said:


> Also, how is the button debounced? Hardware or software? It seemed I was having problems with this as well. Also, without a bulb in my socket, it seemed that the FET was on? Is this supposed to be the case?



Software debounce. Bad software debounce. We'll fix it.
Yes, because it was done in a rush, we did it with software PWM and it could not be set to zero as it interpreted zero as max. Therefore, the lowest you can set it to is 1/2048 Uin if I remember correctly. The production version uses hardware PWM and can be set to zero. 



WhiteHot said:


> So I did all of my playing around with the automotive bulbs. I saw a few weird spikes in the output voltage and I didnt want to risk one of my more expensive bulbs since I blew a few of the cheapies.



You should be rather safe but it was due to the same bug that caused the flickering. Because if it, there is a state where our loop will bug and it will continue to set the output to 1 or 0 depending on what is was before. The length can be anywhere from the last moment of the entire cycle to the entire cycle. That caused the flickering. It is fixed now.




WhiteHot said:


> I also saw quite a bit of jitter in the PWM output. I am assuming that the PWM is interrupt driven and it seems like at times, the interrupt does not get serviced right away or possibly the interrupt gets interrupted.



See above for jitter. The PWM is not interrupt driven, it's just a software loop that controls the output. It is served correctly, but it hangs sometimes due to the bug. See above...



WhiteHot said:


> The next two photos show the use of a lower wattage 6V bulb so that I could use my bench supply. The first pic has a lower input volatage than the second. One thing that is really interesting to note is the RMS voltage on the scope. It changed. It shouldn't have. This is also apparent in the plots above as well.



Yes, it did. My guess is that due to the same bug, the regulation change the amount of flickering with the input voltage. As your o-scope says ? after the voltage, I wouldn't bet my life on it. Furthermore, we didn't use a lot of accuracy for the beta regulators as we didn't see the point and because the software PWM didn't allow us to. I'm not sure how much more precise we can make it in the production version and how much it helps. We can calculate it for you can come back with an answer.
You probably did see a difference in the bulbs brightness between the different power sources but if we won't find the problem, we can still solve it with software compensation.




WhiteHot said:


> I also tested the low voltage cutoff. I set it to 10V and it cutoff around 7V. It was consistent though so this is something that just needs to be tweaked a bit. I also noticed that if the Vin was set below Vcutoff, the regulator would work for a few seconds (5 or so) and then cut out again.



As I said in the "manual" somewhere, the cut-off voltage is not set in volts, but rather sweets or some other imaginary unit. You have to test how many sweets it takes to make one volt as we didn't have time for this. We'll probably calibrate the production regulators so that you don't have to do this. I guess that the relation was 0.7 volt/sweets.
The five secound delay was intentional. Is was good for us during the testing to see if it actually was working of if it just had died. We can make it respond in a millisecond if you want but our guess was that you could probably use this too for troubleshooting and your batteries could probably live for five seconds more.

I hope that answered some of your questions. Thanks for your time and enthusiasm!


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## WhiteHot (Feb 28, 2006)

winny said:


> You should be rather safe but it was due to the same bug that caused the flickering.



I saw one of my 12V bulbs get bright for a very short period of time when I was running it at 6V. It only happened once in the entire time I was testing but this was enough to scare me away. Yes, I agree that it was most likely the bug that has been fixed.



winny said:


> Yes, it did. My guess is that due to the same bug, the regulation change the amount of flickering with the input voltage. As your o-scope says ? after the voltage, I wouldn't bet my life on it. Furthermore, we didn't use a lot of accuracy for the beta regulators as we didn't see the point and because the software PWM didn't allow us to. ... You probably did see a difference in the bulbs brightness between the different power sources but if we won't find the problem, we can still solve it with software compensation.



The ? after the voltage has to do with the jitter. As you can see, there are many pulses on the screen that the o-scope has to integrate to get the RMS voltage. Since none of them is the same, it couldnt lock on to a mean voltage. Like you said, there was definately a difference in bulb brightness so this was very real and is indeed going to have to be rectified. You may have a problem over temperature as well (but that is pure speculation). Also, as a I changed the voltage there was a noticeable (1 second or so) settling time for the regulator. This shouldnt be a problem though since batteries dont change voltage that quickly.



winny said:


> As I said in the "manual" somewhere, the cut-off voltage is not set in volts, but rather sweets or some other imaginary unit.



I should learn to RTFM. Hehe sweets.



winny said:


> The five secound delay was intentional. Is was good for us during the testing to see if it actually was working of if it just had died. We can make it respond in a millisecond if you want but our guess was that you could probably use this too for troubleshooting and your batteries could probably live for five seconds more.



The delay is kind of good since after the light goes off, you can still have a few seconds of light in case a bear is chasing you or something. I just dont know if it would be good for li-ion or li-poly cells.


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## andrewwynn (Feb 28, 2006)

My regulator also has a delay on startup before low-volt kicks in.. it is a time-constant delay and is just a 'blink' more than seconds.. but it does let you use emergency light when you batts are dead using voltage-recocery.. the lower the power bulb the longer each blink can be.. with the Mag100.. when the cells are dead, that 'blink' is literally a blink.. 80ms or so... but you could do it 100s of times.. it would get you out of a (small) woods. 

the PIR would do the same thing regarding 'U' recovery... if your mag85 shuts off.. leave it off for a while and you'll get solid run of 20-30 seconds or more... or many many 2 second blinks. I wouldn't worry too much about the effect on LiPo etc.. just be aware of what you are doing.. there will be voltage recovery any time the light is off.. and the batteries will actually supply bulb voltage during that startup test anyhow. (with the exception of extreme cases like 100W lights). 

neat to see the soft-start on an o-scope. 

funny about the 'sweets' thanks for rooting that one out for me.

-awr


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## winny (Feb 28, 2006)

WhiteHot,

I have discussed the bugs and strange behaviors that you reported with my partner and I now have some better answers for you.

The reason why the Uout RMS value changed when you changed Uin is probably because the uC assumes that the waveform is a perfect square-wave, which it isn't due to a week driver (no driver) and the flicker, the error will change with the duty-cycle, e.g. the Uin. 
Was that a correct usage of "e.g."? I never learn.

The problem with the switch is due to the fact that it has to cope with a wide range of voltages and therefore, along with the fact that we didn't have so much space and time, it became very sensitive. You could often start it bridging over the leads with a hand or finger. It gets even worse by the fact that the uC doesn't detect that you are "pressing" the button/switch but it is running while you keep touching it. This is solved in two ways in the production version. 1. We changed some component values so it is less sensitive. 2. You can't expect it to work if you are fingering/touching the board while running. AND, you probably have a button/switch for it, rather than fingers.

The one second noticeable delay in Uout with changed Uin was also intentional. It is the time-constant for the regulator. It wasn't optimal, but it did work and killed the most flicker. I most point out at this time that if you run a 12 V load of a 24 V power source with the beta regulator, the flicker is almost not noticeable. That setup was pretty much everything we had when we programmed it back in that late night. It wasn't pretty to solve a problem by adjusting some parameters rather than finding the problem, but we looked quite hard for it. I guess that it was a little bit too late that night as we found it the next day when we had shipped it.
We can set the time-constant way shorter now that we have found the bug. It is really enjoyable to have a 10 ms time-constant and turn the knob at your PSU really fast and see that your bulb remains just as bright no matter what you feed it with.  

If there is something I don't have the heart to do in this life, it is stealing other peoples credits. The sweet thing was not my invention.
If you think an explanation for this sounds boring, you can stop reading now.
I heard it on the TV. There was a part of a program where some locals, well, real "locals", had an annual moped race. On of them had a rolling bench mark. I'm not sure how you say it in English... You placed you vehicle on it and and floored it. The wheels that your vehicle was standing on starts to hold back and if you measure how much you can hold it back, you can get a torque-rotation-speed curve and from there calculate the power of the engine. Hmm, long explanation. EDIT: Found it. A dyno. Like this 
Anyhow, the one with the roiling bench mark had it available for all participants for the race (his friends) and although he did live on the country-side, and sure looked like a local, he was somewhat an engineer. He knew that his benchmarking machine had not been calibrated in 15 years but it was reasonable that it was still somewhat linear and proportional. Therefore, rather than measuring in horsepower (God forbid) or kilowatt, they measured in sweets. 
"Sweets" has got a far better punch in Swedish because sweets is just not candy, but it can also be something a little bit unknown and magic, an uncertainty. I don't think there are many except for the guy in the show and me using sweets as a unit, but it is a really good one!


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## WhiteHot (Feb 28, 2006)

Winny,
Thanks for the answers. Sounds like the production version is way more stable and refined than the beta version. Can't wait to try it out


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## WhiteHot (Mar 1, 2006)

I shipped the PIR 1 off to andrewwynn yesterday


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## andrewwynn (Mar 1, 2006)

whoo hooo! hey winny.. i owe you $25, right? I have just the right place to try it out.. basically 'the one combination' that i can't get away with with hotdriver.. too much Vdif from Bat to bulb! It will be fun cramming into a KIU socket (the prototype is bigger than production model)... funny bit of irony to put somebody else's kick butt regulator into one of my lights!

-awr


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## StoneDog (Mar 1, 2006)

Don't want to interrupt this thread too much, but I feel the need to thank both winny and AWR. For a long time now I've been staying away from hotwire mods because of the initial voltage spike and the perceived "danger" of insta-flashing and/or destroying expensive Li-Ion cells by accidentally over-discharging them.

Now there are two solutions (granted they work in radically different ways) and I have one of each on the way. Life is good for this Flashaholic! I'll probably use AWR's for a fixed-voltage light (10.8 Mag85) where power will always be supplied by three big Li-Ions. Winny's PIR will go into another light driven by a large bank of primary lithiums with battery voltage well over bulb voltage and the option to set it to a lower voltage for smaller bulbs for longer runtimes. Yes, life is good!

Thanks again guys for the amazing effort put into these drivers!

Jon


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## winny (Mar 1, 2006)

awr,

Nah! Keep it. I "lost" $200 on the beta regulators anyway so it won't make any differance.

StoneDog,

You're welcome! It's always fun to help people out!


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## wquiles (Mar 1, 2006)

winny said:


> awr,
> 
> Nah! Keep it. I "lost" $200 on the beta regulators anyway so it won't make any differance.


I would not say that you "lost" money. I would rather say that you learned a lot and that thanks to this beta stage your production regulators will be much better, solid, and more reliable. I would say that it was a wise investment 

Will


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## winny (Mar 1, 2006)

That's what I ment with the quotes, but you managed to say in using much more words.


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## andrewwynn (Mar 1, 2006)

I know all about the cost of R&D on a project.. when including opportunity costs.. probably costs me about $20-30 per nano, but i do like making them even though it's a love-hate relationship cause they are so bleeding difficult to make. It was very nice for morale to get a parallel project going to keep my sanity .. it feels go good to actually chugg through production.

Winny.. hey are you soldering up your own assembly on PIR? Do you have pictures of a final driver yet? 

-awr


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## winny (Mar 1, 2006)

I don't have the parts yet. The PCBs are somewhere between Hong Kong and here, and the components are somewhere between Denmark and here. They will all hopefully arrive on Friday. I'm not going to spoil everything yet, but they will be quite special.


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## petrev (Mar 2, 2006)

Hi - I am making up a battery carrier from modamag and want to fit a PIR1 into it for my SF-M6 

- Help - please can someone tell me / draw me a picture / explain how to wire up the PIR1 and the pack and how it works using the common (- or +) tail switch ? ? ? I can't seem to work out how this all works 

? 
Thanks Pete

ps. I'm going to use 3x2RCR123 until the AWR+ tailcap mods are available ( I've got a Hotwire group buy mag2d with the hotdriver on order too ) then I hope to move up to 3x2-17500 like AWR (or 3x17670 if someone can work out which is better) ??? Also how about a MOD lamp assy. so I can fit an Osram 35W bi-pin in there too (HOT) 
Cheers




winny said:


> Lunarmodule,
> 
> Here are some pictures for you.
> 
> ...


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## winny (Mar 2, 2006)

Spot on petrev! That is a problem.

The solution I'm currently offer is to order it pre-programmed for M6 usage and simply bridge over the switch. If you want to change anything, you can do it via the USB-interface. We might come up with something simpler until we ship it, but it can definitely be done.


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## petrev (Mar 2, 2006)

Thanks Winny
Just trying to get my head around how it is wired in as the tail switch only breaks the common (which could be + or -) 
I presume I must be missing something simple 
I have ordered one anyway - just like to know how things fit together for when my modamag kit arrives so I can prepare
Cheers
Pete


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## winny (Mar 2, 2006)

Oh! Sorry, I didn't realize that it was _you_ who ordered it some time ago...

Don't worry. I have it thought out (I hope...)!


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## wquiles (Mar 2, 2006)

Yes, for the SF M6 the circuit would have to work a little bit differently, or it would have to be wired differently. I don't have the BETA unit yet, but from what I understand so far, the PIR 1 seems to depend on power being available prior to the switch being used, which works great on a M*g platform but not on the SF M6 since the only switch on the M6 maintains the battery pack disconnected from the body (the ground path or negative) until activated so the PIR 1 would have no power.

Programming the PIR 1 on a bench prior to assembling the battery pack/regulator sounds like the way to make it work at the moment, which is not that big of a deal anyway as you probably would not be changing batteries/bulbs all that often in "normal" use (then again, what is "normal" to a flashaholic?)

Would the switch contacts be simply left open if the unit is already pre-programmed? Would it work this way?

Will


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## winny (Mar 2, 2006)

wquilles,

I may have done things in advance here, but as it looks now, the beta unit will not go via/end with you. I'm sorry if this has caused you any trouble, but you should get your free production regulator in a week if everything works out well and frankly, the production version kicks the beta regulators butt.  

About the M6, we can solve it in two ways. Either bridge over the switch so it is always pressed. This could be a problem because it would put a zener diode on the regulator under continuous load but the voltage is quite low so it should be al right. The other solution is to solder a wire onto the regulator so it's always on, bypassing the zener. It wouldn't look as nice, but it would be very simple and saves 50 mW of power as well.

Both solution would require a special software, but that's not a problem.


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## petrev (Mar 2, 2006)

Thanks Winny

As long as I wasn't asking too stupid a question

Pete


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## winny (Mar 2, 2006)

petrev,

Absolutely not. Your question is very vital for M6 users who want to go regulated.


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## andrewwynn (Mar 3, 2006)

in my M6 battery pack.. power is always available at the tailcap where i'd put the regulator.. .. can you just break the ground path to the lamp (or +) and have it work? i..e what does PIR think about open load and does it go into regulation if you apply a load after it's 'on'? 

-awr


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## winny (Mar 3, 2006)

To leave the regulator constantly on isn't a problem for the regulator, except that you will loose the soft sart adn the fact that it pulls a couple of milliampere when unloaded. 
Where is the switch located on the M6 and can it be accessed/modded?


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## andrewwynn (Mar 3, 2006)

No switch on the M6.. the tailcap is unscrewed to remove the ground path. 

When making a big battery pack.. like the M6x6.. (6 17500s).. it's held together in a way that brings power to the tailcap through the center rod.. (which could also be used to apply power down the center to the lamp, by putting a wire from the top of the pack to the bottom.. 

With my reg.. if the switch is left in the on position (or soldered always on).. it still soft-starts.. sounds like the PIR doesn't do this? 

I think i had one design with a momentary push button switch that was pressed as the tailcap is turned.. to de-energize the ctk when not in use... very much like the LOTC to start with.. turning the tailcap pressed the switch, then continuing would connect the lamp.. hmm.. that would cause the same problem.. voltage would be peak to start with, no soft-start.. i knew there was more homework on that model. 

Oh.. now i remember.. i designed a different version for the M6.. 

rather than having the FET 'above' the lamp it is 'below'.. that way i can just use Vbat for the gate drive.. but the added bonus.. ground to the battery can be interrupted by the tailcap non-switch. It was pretty cool to get the breadboard model working.. but i shorted something out and killed it.. been too busy to re-create it as of yet, but it's coming. 

-awr


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## wquiles (Mar 3, 2006)

winny said:


> wquilles,
> I may have done things in advance here, but as it looks now, the beta unit will not go via/end with you. I'm sorry if this has caused you any trouble, but you should get your free production regulator in a week if everything works out well and frankly, the production version kicks the beta regulators butt.


No worries dude 





winny said:


> About the M6, we can solve it in two ways. Either bridge over the switch so it is always pressed. This could be a problem because it would put a zener diode on the regulator under continuous load but the voltage is quite low so it should be al right. The other solution is to solder a wire onto the regulator so it's always on, bypassing the zener. It wouldn't look as nice, but it would be very simple and saves 50 mW of power as well.
> 
> Both solution would require a special software, but that's not a problem.


Like Andrew mentions right above this reply, the SF M6 works differently from the M*g light, so a different tactic must be used. In all cases, the PIR 1 must retain the soft start, so we need to think outside the box. Becuase you have a device that can be reprogrammed, I am sure you can do that in software.

The actual programming can be done in a maner similar to other LED regulators (like the POP and the FluPIC - do a search on these). Basically, if you close and open the circuit power to the PIR 1, it would, after say 5 quick OFF-ON cycles go into a programming mode where you can then change settings. Note that you might need a capacitor to hold the voltage to the chip for this short duration so that the chip can "count" these ON/OFF cycles, depending on how you implement this function.

The programming could be done once on a bench prior to building the regulated battery pack (since more than likely the user would stick with a particular one or two bulbs very close in voltage, like MN20/21 or MN60/61), or it could be done once the pack is built.

The change settings once the pack is built can be done easily if you make the two points for the switch available to the outside of the battery pack so that a temporary external switch can be clipped on to get into programming mode.

I am 100% sure you can make it work. Although the market of SF M6's is most certainly smaller than for M*g based hotwires, there is definitely a market for these worth pursuing (myself included). If you need somebody to help you with some BETA testing let me know - I full bench with scope, PS's, and several SF M6 bulbs, along with two M6's at your dispossal. I would love to build one of my M6's with Andrew's regulator and the other one with the PIR 1 

Will


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## petrev (Mar 3, 2006)

Any Comments






Can anybody work out the approx run-times for the diff. combos
@ say Vbulb=7V

Can a slip contact be done (easily) ? 

Cheers Pete


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## winny (Mar 3, 2006)

wquilles,

I was about to answer all your questions when an idea struck me! Looking at petrev's picture made me think - is it really that easy?

The little dotted line in the middle of the battery, is that a cable? If it is and the switch can be pressed momentarily, you can make the PIR work right out of the box without modification and the one-button-programming intact. 

Let your battery pack put + in the chassis and supply both + and - to the PIR. Let the switch mechanism close the switch circuit on the PIR. The cable that goes in the middle of the battery pack goes to the BULB- on the PIR. Then, you will have it setup in the exact same way as I intended it to. 


petrev,

Damn you draw good! Would you be interested in drawing a series strip I have been thinking about for some time? I would pay you.

I can calculate if for you if you if someone can provide the rated voltage and power for the lamp.


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## petrev (Mar 3, 2006)

Thanks for the nice words

Yeh - I thought wire or central bar of pack to send -Bulb to head.
2 of the tie bars carry batt - and + . Common + on the chassis when tail switch actuated so bulb and switch see + at same time ( My only thought was that the switch contact is connected to the bulb at all times but I hope that doesn't matter - floating through the bulb to -Bulb ?)

As for the sketch - couldn't get the filament right . . .
? ? ?

One of the other threads had something about the M6 bulbs nominal Voltage rating ( nominal 6.8V for MN21 (?) can't remember MN20 - but SF apparently don't put out power figures ) I'll try and find it again (? Maybe AWR or JS would know ?)

Also tried to work out size for 3x2x17500 and don't get any space for PIR1 even with new tail piece ? But this is just guessing on my part really.

Cheers Pete

ps. Lunarmodule - thread with other stuff about amps and sag and all -eg.

https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/100220&page=2&pp=30&highlight=SF/M6


lunarmodule said:


> . . . The MN20 (LOLA) is actually a 7.2V lamp that draws 2.45 amps for approximately 17 Watts of output. The MN21 (HOLA) spec is 6.1V with 4.9 amps for about 30W. The common denominator between these two different loads is the right amount of sag with the MB20 holder. I suspect a potential for instaflash with the LOLA with the triple parallel.
> . . .
> .





js said:


> The MN21 is a 6.8 volt lamp on fresh 123's, and the MN20, is, about a 7.6 volt lamp, on fresh 123's, although I haven't actually done a direct measurement of this myself yet. Now, mid-point-voltage is probably just as brock specifies on his webpage. But fresh, start of run voltage, is more important information to have when you are trying to match lamps and batteries.
> 
> The nice thing about direct-drive with Li-ion cells, is that they will likely rise up in voltage under load (just as CR123's do) so that you can power either the MN21 or the MN20 to the right level.
> 
> ...


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## winny (Mar 3, 2006)

I don't get it, the lamp runs on 6 CR123A... You can get 3, 6, 9 or 18 volt from that pack. The 250/500 lumen figure should be for one of those voltages.

Nevertheless...
Assuming that the lamp is rated for 250 lumen @ 7.2 V:

7 volt, 17 W, 230 lumen
7.1 volt, 17.3 W, 241 lumen
7.3 volt, 18 W, 265 lumen
7.4 volt, 18.3 W, 277 lumen
and so on
8 volt, 20.5 W, 361 lumen

If we assume 95 % efficiency here (probably higher), the runtimes at 7 V would be:
3*17650 = 54 min
3*2*17500 = 79 min
3*2*RCR123 = 54 min


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## wquiles (Mar 3, 2006)

winny said:


> I don't get it, the lamp runs on 6 CR123A... You can get 3, 6, 9 or 18 volt from that pack. The 250/500 lumen figure should be for one of those voltages.


The battery holder of the SF M6 is a series-paralel holder. Basically, it is two sets of parallel cells, each one being 3 cells in series. Think of the M6 as two M3's in parallel - both give you 9V, but the M6 has more (double) current capacity 

The voltages that are quoted by js and others are the "loaded" voltages that the MN20 and MN21 see with fresh cells, due to the current draw and due to the losses in the battery holder (which as has been shown here in the forum is a great holder, but it is not the most efficient there is).

So, if you are using a battery pack that once loaded it can give 7.5 volts or higher, you would set the PIR 1 for 7.6V for the MN20 and 6.8V for the MN21. Since these are so darn close, if I trully wanted the ability to use either bulb, I personally would set the voltage right at 7.0 or 7.1 volts and use either bulb and forget it 

Will


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## petrev (Mar 3, 2006)

So . . .

Taking the two above and combining 

Would seem 3x2-RCR123 would provide the better std. solution for lower battery stress (1/3 cell current) 

but 3x17650 would give fully regulated run . . .

and 3x2-17650 for runtime (but mod. tail and poss. no room for PIR1 - so no protected or soft start or low batt cut off)

? Hmmm

Pete


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## andrewwynn (Mar 4, 2006)

The M6 runs about 6.8V initially.. there is quite a bit of sag internally.. to the tune of 40% of the power of the light.. it's about 35W initially... i would run the light about 6.9V and 4.9A or so.. 

A sweeping contact is easy, I"ll have to look at that solution.. i have had similar solutions with the case being the +. nice idea. 

-awr


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## winny (Mar 4, 2006)

wquiles said:


> The voltages that are quoted by js and others are the "loaded" voltages that the MN20 and MN21 see with fresh cells, due to the current draw and due to the losses in the battery holder (which as has been shown here in the forum is a great holder, but it is not the most efficient there is).



That's some solution! Wasting 2 V * 2.45 A = 5 W of primary battery power in the batteries and holder. That should keep them warm and cosy...




petrev said:


> Would seem 3x2-RCR123 would provide the better std. solution for lower battery stress (1/3 cell current)



Not really. You put the 3*2*RCR123 under 1.11 C load whereas the 3*17650 only suffers from a 0.76 C load. Or did I miss anything?

I have another solution. I don't own an M6 so feel free to correct me on this one. Tri-bore it for 3*2*18650 and make a completely new tailcap. If you put LG's 2400 mAh batteries in there, you could have killer output (with overdrive) and killer runtime in a very sexy host. We should be thinking about changing the lamp as well to something more durable, less enpensive and more powerful as well.  


awr,

Is your 4.9 A figure for the HOLA?


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## petrev (Mar 4, 2006)

winny said:


> That's some solution! Wasting 2 V * 2.45 A = 5 W of primary battery power in the batteries and holder. That should keep them warm and cosy...
> 
> Not really. You put the 3*2*RCR123 under 1.11 C load whereas the 3*17650 only suffers from a 0.76 C load. Or did I miss anything?
> 
> ...




Taking 4.9A HOLA

RCR123 750mAh - 1.64A / cell - 2.18C
17650 1500mAh - 4.9A / cell - 3.27C

Yes - 3x2x18650 7200mAh pack (0.68C) would be lovely and personally I would love to run an Osram 35w 64275AX - 6V - run at 7.2V kicks serious

Cheers Pete


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## andrewwynn (Mar 5, 2006)

yes.. amazing about the MB20 holder and 6x 123 cells.... there is actually closer to 22W of primary power put into heating the batteries.. we measured almost 200F (93C) on the battery pack when they 'stopped working' at 11 minutes during a runtime shoot-off between the M6 and M66.. 

3x2 R123 is 10.8V.. do you mean 3x2? that gets you 2.1AH at 1C... using the PIR it won't matter if you have 10.8V batt.. you have to convert to WH first to see how many amps you'll draw. 

3x2 18650 with a replacement tailcap is a great idea. that would bump the 3.3AH pack i made up to 4.4AH... but loosing the M6 tailcap, not so keen on that.. maybe an extension tube that would still use the stock tailcap? 

yes.. HOLA.. that's the dimmest light i'd probably ever find myself using... mag85 looks dim to me now. 

The osram 35W lamp does kick some serious butt.. but ti won't run at 7.2.. i've run it regulated at 7.2 with less than 30 sec. runtime. At 7.0 howerver.. booorah!

-awr


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## andrewwynn (Mar 5, 2006)

oops forgot to mention.. the PIR beta came in.. can you direct me to the destructions .. i mean.. instructions? 

-awr


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## winny (Mar 5, 2006)

awr,

Thise posts should be useful for you.
http://candlepowerforums.com/vb/showpost.php?p=1236686&postcount=37 
http://candlepowerforums.com/vb/showpost.php?p=1249896&postcount=66

I'll include you for a free regulator as well...


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## andrewwynn (Mar 5, 2006)

I laugh every single time i read the word 'freaking' in the photo diagram for wiring the PIR!

I can't wait to check it out.. I will likely be trying it in a pretty heavy duty light, that will be one of the exceptions where the hotdriver kinda bites the big one (too big of a voltage difference coupled with high-current). 9A and 2V+ v drop.

-awr


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## winny (Mar 5, 2006)

Oh... 9 A you say.
You might want to consider to change the transistor to something with lower Ron in that case. As long as it has logic gate level and the pinout is GDS if the text is facing you, you should be alright... Or wait for the production version. If everything works our alright from now, it should arrive in your mailbox in a week and a half.


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## andrewwynn (Mar 5, 2006)

Nice, thanks tons for the driver.. i might find a use for them in a production run.. we'd have to talk about a 'quantity discount' or like how i made a license agreement with george from taskled to use the fatman driver.. i do all the work and pay him per use. 

Talk about a friendly competition! I help answer questions about the PIR, maybe a bit of suggestions how to make it better and get one for free.. isn't CPF awesome!?

The D2PAK transistors i have are 4mohm and believe they are also GDS, so by adding a bit of a lead on the middle leg i think i could get it to swap out. (was kinda planning on something like that anyhow.. to get it to fit into a KIU socket. (well sorta into).

I think i get 4mohm at 4.5V.. but i drive mine up to 14V+ Vgs to achieve maximum conductance when out of regulation. 

Here is a question about PIR.. what is the duty cycle once out of regulation.. does it turn full on? 100% or still PWM less than 100% duty-cycle? One thing that kept me away from switching regulators was that i could never find one that went to 100% duty cycle when it can't hold regulation anymore. 

I came up with a hack to use the hotdriver in the 4D mag625.. and i will wait for the production PIR to come in to do a head-to-head.. I am anticipating about 4 minutes longer runtime with the PIR, not to mention cooler running light. I will of course post the results. 

I put on the assembly directions for the hotdriver: http://hotdriver.rouse.com and much of the description would be nearly identical for the PIR.. just instead of drilling the holes for the adjustment pots, align them with the bulb wire connections.. I think you can even find an alignment that works to put the battery + through the switch base just like i do. 

If you use a 7/64" drill bit you don't need to use the 3mm nuts to hold the parts together.. 

It should be obvious, but i'll state it so somebody doesn't make a big mistake.. the lenghts to cut the wires are quite specific to the hotdriver! figure out the proper lengths for the PIR on your own.

Winny.. you could make a PDF or even JPG picture 100% scale of the PIR to use for alignment to drill the holes.. that's what i'm going to do for the hotdriver.. so people can print it out and use as a template of where to drill the holes for the adj. pots. 

It's fun having *worthy* competition out there.. I feel a bit like in a movie where one of the race car teams blew their engine and a competitor lent them their engine so they could have a fair race. I totally dig the PIR project.. even though it's really my only competition.. it's just way to cool to try to knock down.. 

Now we are on to the next race.. who gets it miniaturized to fit into a C-size KIU first? :-D

-awr


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## winny (Mar 5, 2006)

I'm not entirely sure here, but both versions should be able to use 100.0 % duty cycle. I have to check the datasheet to be sure but I couldn't hear it switch anymore when it went out of regulation and I don't see why it shouldn't be able to do that.

Do you mean that the 2.778125 mm drill (sorry, I just can't write imperial units) solution causes the screw to make its own threads in the PCB and therefore holds the regulator in place?

I'll get started on the PDF once I get home from school tonight.

Damn right! I hate it when your competitors refuses to even speak to you and use as much violence as possible to win the game in question, whatever the cost is. 
I'm on it! *staring CircuitMaker in my head and running of to school*


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## andrewwynn (Mar 5, 2006)

yup the 2.77mm drill will self-tap and you need no nuts.. holds nice and tight in the black plastic switch base! You have NO idea how much that saves me!

Ooops.. you want the pcb hole to be >3mm.. i use the "3.175"mm bit for making holes through the PCB.. i had the hotdriver made with the holes pre-fab.. 3.5mm.. just to be sure.. very good thing since they are slightly misaligned with the KIU!

The race is on.. whomever loses owes the other one of theirs :-D (just a suggestion). 

-awr


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## petrev (Mar 8, 2006)

andrewwynn said:


> . . .
> 
> The osram 35W lamp does kick some serious butt.. but ti won't run at 7.2.. i've run it regulated at 7.2 with less than 30 sec. runtime. At 7.0 howerver.. booorah!
> 
> -awr




Yes - sorry - Nominal 7.2V 6xNiMh
don't know what the real volts are but it is nice and bright
Cheers Pete


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## andrewwynn (Mar 8, 2006)

i never thought to try to direct-drive it since it was so touchy.. it pulls so many amps (over 6A).. the calculations estimate that with a fivemega style holder you'll still only be getting 6.82V to the bulb.. which would explain how it runs. 

I used a 2x3 pack of 17500s.. they hold enough to get 7.2 to the bulb with fresh charge 'pop' blew the bulb.. the output is about 800L at 6.82V.. you can measure the tailcap current to estimate the vBulb..it should be about 6.26 (that number could be off.. i had to re-work my osram 100W values because their wattage rating was off.. current was wrong for both the '625 and '138 lamps. 

-awr


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## petrev (Mar 8, 2006)

YIKES !

Never new I was being so incautious ?

I just stuck it in my 6C with a Kiu Socket and bingo - lottsa lumenz
Guess the Mag switch is probably acting as my saviour.

6A you say - HMMM 
Well it all seems to work so far . . .

Cheers Pete


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## andrewwynn (Mar 8, 2006)

the 64275 re-rates like this:
7.20 Vbat
6.82 Vbulb
376 switch loss (volt)
6.26 amp
42.7 watt
1,224 bulb lum
796 torch lum
28.6 lum/w
10.7 bulb life

I have found that if you have a bulb-life re-rate over 8 you have limited risk of insta-flash.. with 10.7 appaerntly that's good enough for a 'go'. 

-awr


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## petrev (Mar 10, 2006)

(Now re-Posted over at . . . ) 
http://candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?p=1312645#post1312645

Thanks to AWR

and for all the other info too ( Did you do the Tail Mod and EMachineShop file ?)

I just downloaded EMachineshop and did a quick (rough dimensions) M6-tailcap insert.

Now with the material Al-6063 (?) and shipping to somewhere in DC (WHY ?) this seems to work out at about $5.30 each for 50 ( $7.60 each for 25 ).

Can I send this file to someone for checking and refinement and comments and material corrections and . . . 


OR ? ? ? where is the "real" file ? ? ? ?


cpf-x AT xuum DOT com

Cheers Pete


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## andrewwynn (Mar 10, 2006)

should have asked.. i already have the part designed in eMachine shop.. far more detailed than shown, all the tiny subtle details like chamfered edges etc.. 

I will making an order of 100 of them soon, but 'soon' means maybe about a month. I need to make sure the regulator that goes with them will work. I will offer the tailcap for sale by itself... maybe as little as $10 for a single one.


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## petrev (Mar 10, 2006)

Hi 

Great - someone is on the case. 

Can't Wait to see what comes next . . .

thanks


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## winny (Mar 10, 2006)

awr,

Just tell me what dimentions we have to play with and how it should be placed and I'll redesign it for M6 use.


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## WhiteHot (Mar 13, 2006)

Well Andrew? Any updates? I had to do some rushing around to get it to you. I wish I would have known you weren't gonna test it for a while.


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## andrewwynn (Mar 13, 2006)

no time to put the tester into something yet.. 

For M6 use, best if it can start up from no power and still have soft-start since there is no switch on an M6.. just has ground disconnected.. there was that clever design how to get around that, but required a sweeping contact to keep power.. that's not all that difficult to do. 

I will be making my driver into the bottom PCB of the battery pack. the back side will have the contacts for the battery and the center will have power coming from the front.. there is a chance that bat+ will come from a wire up to the tailcap and lamp current will run through the center rod, i haven't looked at the design for a while and forgot.


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## petrev (Mar 21, 2006)

andrewwynn said:


> no time to put the tester into something yet..
> 
> For M6 use, best if it can start up from no power and still have soft-start since there is
> 
> ...



Hi ALL

Latest thunk on this M6 sub-topic









ModaMag-Type Battery Holder

BULB -ve via centre rod to Bulb
BATT +ve via side rod to Body using coil or wave spring at head end
BATT -ve via side rod to PIR1
SW-Red to tail spring/Switch (cap over PIR1 ?)


No need for special version - and the body shoulder at the head end seems designed to use as 

a contact surface (?)

Comments as ever very welcome from any and all of the experts

Cheers Pete

ps. Just seen the photos on the sign-up thread - Nice Job
Where does the switch wire attach ?


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## andrewwynn (Mar 21, 2006)

That looks like it would work.. Bats would have to be in backwards in the pack to achive the center neg, but that would make it common ground which works to get the neg. to the PIR.. good show. 

-awr


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## winny (Mar 29, 2006)

Sorry, I forgot all about this thread.

The beta testing is over so we should move on to another thread. I dunno if a PIR 1 + M6 delivers its own thread or not, but this is not the right one. How do you ask a moderator to close down you own thread with a specific reason?

petrev,

Your picture is exactly what I had in mind. If it would be possible, it would be nice to route the common + to the lamp directly, bypassing the spring for the lamp. 
wquiles had expressed his eager to get this project going and I would for sure like to see a 99 % efficient regulated M6.


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## CM (Mar 31, 2006)

winny said:


> Sorry, I forgot all about this thread.
> 
> The beta testing is over so we should move on to another thread. I dunno if a PIR 1 + M6 delivers its own thread or not, but this is not the right one. How do you ask a moderator to close down you own thread with a specific reason?
> 
> ...



Bump to get a new thread started.


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