# Mill Necessities?



## Mirage_Man (Jan 24, 2009)

So as you know I just ordered my first mill. I was hoping you all would give me some guidance as to what tools and fixtures I should put 1st on the list of what to get. I already have a set of 123 blocks and one of those HSS end mill sets you get from Enco for like $45. I know I'll need a vise and eventually a super spacer. I'm also trying to decide on whether to just go ahead and use R8 collets or possibly go with ER32's instead.

Is there a good tutorial somewhere on the different types of end mills? What about a decent face mill? Boring bars?


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## SafetyBob (Jan 24, 2009)

Brian, I think if PrecisionWorks chimes in he will recommend ER40 which is substantially bigger for heft. ER32 would work, I am not sure it would be on the light side. 

The main question is for you to answer is, what do you envision doing with this mill? I can think of all sorts of crap you can blow money on for a mill but are you thinking about milling slots down the side of the flashlight body like alot of the custom guys are doing? I think a rotary table would speed things up for that but you might be better off just making some sort of specific jig to hold the flashlight in versus a chuck for the rotary table and then some sort of something to support the other end because the tailstock jig just doesn't look very safe.....I think you get the picture. 

General machining you are on track a nice vice to hold crap, and make sure that the jaws have the V in them, that's always nice to hold round stuff quickly that's not to critical. 

Oh, almost forgot, I use a mist coolant system. Have a couple of nozzles that spray the crap while machining. Again, 99.9% of my stuff is aluminum so I really can't say if mist cooling is effective for steel milling (I suspect a flood would be preferred here). I have a Trico 2 outlet set up because it was given to me (I would be hard pressed to purchase something this wildly overpriced), I like using two misters, but I am sure one is more than enough for what we are doing. 

I don't know if your machine is capable of it, Precision will be good here for knowledge and advice, One shot lubrication....if you could set one up before you start playing, it would make it so much easier to keep that thing running at 100%. My Bridgeport had one at one time, then was stolen as it was getting older in life (especially before auction time)..

That's all I can think of....

Bob E.


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## SafetyBob (Jan 24, 2009)

Brian, did you get 10% off the 1,289.95 price I see online? 

Also, how much did they get you for shipping. I could drive down to Dallas and get it, but I would rather they use somebody else's truck. 

This may be a deal I can't pass up either.......

Bob E.


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## gadget_lover (Jan 24, 2009)

Along with what was mentioned, you will want...

edge finders
wiggler (center finder)
A fly cutter
End mill holders
angle block
v blocks
clamping set
Stray assortment of All-thread to match the clamping set and the threads in the 123 blocks.
A power bandsaw.

I have R8, 5c, Morse 2 and 3 as well as er32 collets. 

I was spoiled by the extreme range of the ER collets. My set fits everything from 7/8 inches and down. But my 16 piece 5c set, on the other hand, allows long pieces to stick through, I need the piece to be within a few thousandths of the collet size. The r-8 collets work OK, but they are long so I have to lower the table, remove the collet, put the next one in, move it back. A pain.

A lot of folks hold end mills in collets, but that is not the best way to do it. An end mill holder provides a precision fit and uses a set screw against the flat on the shank to keep it from falling out. At a class recently the instructor used a 1/2 inch end mill in an 1/2 inch R-8 collet. After 2 passes the mill was noticeably lower, like about .100 inches. It was being sucked out of the collet by the cutting forces.

Your adventure has just begun.... 

Daniel


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## cmacclel (Jan 24, 2009)

gadget_lover said:


> A lot of folks hold end mills in collets, but that is not the best way to do it. An end mill holder provides a precision fit and uses a set screw against the flat on the shank to keep it from falling out. At a class recently the instructor used a 1/2 inch end mill in an 1/2 inch R-8 collet. After 2 passes the mill was noticeably lower, like about .100 inches. It was being sucked out of the collet by the cutting forces.
> 
> 
> Daniel


 

Hmm.........for the past 14 years I have worked closey with 2 machinists that have been in the business there whole life and all they used was R8 collets on CNC Brideports. Never once did an R8 collet slip an endmill and they have done some SERIOUS machining. Even stalling the 2HP Brideports with an R8 Collet holding and endmill without the endmill moving  

I guess if you tighten the collet correctly then you should have no issues. They where holding a 9" fly cutter spinning at 3k RPM with an R8 collet with no problems.

Mac


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## Mirage_Man (Jan 24, 2009)

SafetyBob said:


> Brian, did you get 10% off the 1,289.95 price I see online?
> 
> Also, how much did they get you for shipping. I could drive down to Dallas and get it, but I would rather they use somebody else's truck.
> 
> ...



Bob, it was like $1345 delivered with the 10% off. Mine is coming from Atlanta though.


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## SafetyBob (Jan 24, 2009)

Daniel, good, exact info on the collet holders. I have been told that and have probably experienced it but didn't understand what was going on.

With the small mill/drills you could get by with the ER-32 system, right? I have been reading up on the capabilities of these smaller machines and I believe it said 3/4" mill was maximum size. Isn't that about the biggest ER-32 collet too? 

I also noticed that even in the mill/drill category the price can go up quickly for some reason that I have not exactly figured out even though essentially I assume all machines weigh about the same and are made in China. 

Bob E.


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## Mirage_Man (Jan 24, 2009)

SafetyBob said:


> I also noticed that even in the mill/drill category the price can go up quickly for some reason that I have not exactly figured out even though essentially I assume all machines weigh about the same and are made in China.
> 
> Bob E.



If you're talking about the belt driven models then I think that's because of adding things like power feed, power down feed, DRO etc...


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## gadget_lover (Jan 24, 2009)

cmacclel said:


> Hmm.........for the past 14 years I have worked closey with 2 machinists that have been in the business there whole life and all they used was R8 collets on CNC Brideports. Never once did an R8 collet slip an endmill and they have done some SERIOUS machining. Even stalling the 2HP Brideports with an R8 Collet holding and endmill without the endmill moving
> 
> I guess if you tighten the collet correctly then you should have no issues. They where holding a 9" fly cutter spinning at 3k RPM with an R8 collet with no problems.
> 
> Mac



Thanks for the feedback Mac. I've read that endmill holders were the better choice, and I've only seen the one slip. The fact that they CAN work properly means that I can learn to do it too. The instructor was worried about over tightening the collet, so he may have under tightened.

Since I already have the endmill holder set with R8 arbors I will not have a lot of incentive to learn it except when room is tight. 

Other tools you might need;

Drill chuck on an R8 arbor for drilling
Spindle mounted indicator holder.


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## precisionworks (Jan 24, 2009)

> The main question is for you to answer is, what do you envision doing with this mill?


+1

Bob makes a great point. IMO, it makes sense to buy tooling as your needs develop, as there are many cool looking items you may never need. That said, here's my list of must have tooling to get started.

*ER-40 collet set.* As Mac said, the R-8 collet is still used by many experienced machinists. Even so, it is the weakest of all Bridgeport compatible collets. The strongest is the TG-100 system, and the reasons for its tremendous grip are the tiny range of collapse (only .015") and the very shallow 8° taper. The only drawback is that it takes 59 collets to cover the full range from 3/32" to 1" ... even the low priced imported set run $1200, and nice sets are nearly $2000. The ER-40 is a good compromise, as it takes only 23 collets to cover 1/8" to 1". The reason for fewer collets is that each has a greater range of collapse, so they don't have the killer grip of the TG, but they do have (about) twice the grip of R-8. About $400 including case & chuck that fits an R-8 spindle.

ER-32 is another good choice, but the max shank size is 3/4". ER-40 allows gripping 1". I often run 1" diameter solid carbide end mills (there's one mounted on the mill as we speak), and I'd hate to be limited to 3/4". All ER collets can be used to hold twist drills (either on the shank or on the flutes), taps, and end mills.

*Kurt vise.* There are half a dozen mill vises on my bench, each for some specific purpose, but the Kurt AngLock D Series is the one that owns the mill table. Mine is a D675 (really cheap on eBay), but the D688 is the same size and opens over an inch wider. Not cheap, but a lifetime investment.








*End mills.* Most people start with HSS, move to Cobalt M42, and move again to solid carbide. If you pick & choose on eBay, you can buy a nice assortment of Cobalt & carbide end mills, either new or resharp, at decent prices.

*Face mill.* One usually does the trick. Mine uses the "unused" corners from the lathe tools & boring bars, so the inserts are free:thumbsup:






Dorian Tool designed this cutter, and sells it for about $200, but the Eastern Europeans make a nice copy for $99:

http://stegmantoolcompany.thomasnet...t-with-r8-and-weldon-shank/6-976-120?&seo=110

If you prefer another style insert, many are available. For either Bridgeport or mill/drill, 2" or 2.5" is as large as the machine can power (I just know that someone will post about their 8" milling head).

*Indicol holder + Interapid indicator.* The Indicol clamps onto the spindle & allows the dial test indicator to swing in a full circle.






It's the most used method to center a hole or a part under the spindle. The machine has to be in neutral (Bpt) or have belt tension released (M/D) so the spindle will swing. It's also used to tram in the mill vise, and used to tram in a long part when that part is directly clamped to the table.

*Starrett edge finder.* I like the 827B (about $20):






Some people prefer the 827A:






*Wiggler set, Starrett S828.* About $30 retail, but I've bought two new ones for $12 each on eBay:






*Adjustable parallels.* Often used with 1-2-3 blocks to set a part up in the mill vise. Usually some nice sets on eBay:






*Drill chuck, keyed or keyless, with R-8 shank.* Once you use a nice Keyless, like Albrecht (or the Jacobs copy) you won't go back to a keyed chuck. But keyed chucks are less costly, bulletproof, and just slightly less convenient.

*Boring head, 3".* A good sized, general purpose head. Holds a 3/4" shank bar, and you'll want at least one short, one medium, & one long bar. Mesa Tool sells a nice quality imported bar for $25, and it works well:
http://cgi.ebay.com/3-4-Boring-Bar-...ryZ58251QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

*Parallel set, 1/8" thick.* The imports seem as good as any, and cost little. Used every time something small or short is fixed in the mill vise.

*Rotary table, 9".* Anything larger takes up too much real estate on a M/D, although 12" isn't bad on a Bridgeport. 

That's the short list, and you'll add many items as time passes. You'll need most of those items every time you run the mill.


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## Mirage_Man (Jan 25, 2009)

Thanks Barry. That is exactly the type of info I was looking for.

I forgot to mention that I do already have a nice Jacobs super precision key less drill chuck. It's got the integral R8 shank too. I picked it up at a Pawn shop awhile back for like $40-$50.


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## precisionworks (Jan 25, 2009)

> Jacobs super precision key less


Nice, Brian, that's similar to the one I use (mine is the High Torque-High Precision). Jacobs certifies both to have less than .0016" TIR (which is +/- .0008"). Testing against a solid carbide tool shank, mine shows .0009" TIR. They are the best buy for someone who can't quite afford an Albrecht.

One other item that makes life much easier is the DRO. It isn't any more accurate than the dials, and I've run Bpts with dials with only an occasional problem. The DRO adds some speed, as there's no backlash to remove, and it almost eliminates scrap. _Every mistake on the Bpt was exactly one dial turn, +/- .000. _That doesn't happen with the DRO. Not inexpensive, but neither is the Ti stock that you work with. Well worth the money. Enco sometimes has the Acu-Rite model on sale for you mill.


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## wquiles (Jan 25, 2009)

Mirage_Man said:


> Thanks Barry. That is exactly the type of info I was looking for.



+1 - thanks Barry for taking the time to do such a complete job, with pics, parts numbers, etc. :thumbsup:

Will


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## PEU (Jan 25, 2009)

precisionworks said:


> That's the short list, and you'll add many items as time passes. You'll need most of those items every time you run the mill.



WOW, you just made me consider a couple of tools I forgot I needed 

Can't wait for your detailed LONG list :nana:


Pablo


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## modamag (Jan 25, 2009)

Brian, Congrats on your first mill. You'll quickly find that the mill is alot more usefull (outside of flashlight work) and you're gonna accumulate much more tools for it.

In addtion to PW's great list. Here are couple items that I find usefull at time.

Vise Stop ... $10
Spider Vise Handle ... $15
5C Collet Block ... $40
Tormach collet system ... $$$ ... It's quick and easy for repeated work.

And when you have the time make yourself the following.
Mill Way Cover ... saves a tons of time cleaning up the T-Slot
LED Spindle Ring Light ... You can practically work in the dark with these
Depth Plate ... Quick and easy way to zero w/o the paper trick.

Here are some of the ones that I've doc.

BTW: There was a passaround with the Bridgeport Mill Tutorial a while back. I don't know who got the last DVD now. I think it would help much as a starter course.


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## gadget_lover (Jan 25, 2009)

What's a depth plate and how is it used?


Daniel


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## cmacclel (Jan 25, 2009)

gadget_lover said:


> What's a depth plate and how is it used?
> 
> 
> Daniel


 
A depth plate (Depth Setter) is how you set your "Z" Zero. The new ones have led lights that light when an endmill contacts them.

http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INSRIT?PARTPG=INLMKD&PMPXNO=23788073&PMAKA=SJ308-0391


Barry is that your RF-31 you pictured with the spindle chip gaurd mounted? If so where can I get one??

Mac


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## precisionworks (Jan 25, 2009)

> is that your RF-31 you pictured with the spindle chip guard mounted?


Yes it is

That's a FlexBar VisorGuard, sort of pricey at retail (around $119), got that one on eBay for $25-$30. There are different styles of shields available, & you can easily make your own from Lexan sheet by heating & bending.

http://store.flexbar.com/merchant2/...re_Code=FLX&Product_Code=13032&Category_Code=


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## Mirage_Man (Jan 27, 2009)

So what's the consensus on import vs. name brand collets? I'm looking at the ER40 collet set and there's a $230 spread between the 2. ETM brand is $599 for the set and the import is $369 for the set. Neither includes an R8 adapter as far as I can tell either. These are listed in the current Enco flyer.


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## SafetyBob (Jan 27, 2009)

Brian, honestly, do you really need a full set? I think you could get by with (I am really pulling it out know) 4 collets. 1/4; 1/2; 3/4; 1. Why those, basically standard size and you can always get the 1/8 inch end with the 1/4 shaft, ect. ect. 

As I think I have stated before, my nieghbor uses ER-16's on his little Unimat lathe/mill and they do work well, but let's just put it this way, so far with my R-8 holders (import from Enco) I haven't had over one or two maybe slips and after those happened, I snug those babies in the holder....I don't crank down like a wild man, just crank down with reasonable control....no quick yanking movement to bend or break something. 

Oh, missed the 10% thing, but will simply wait for the next one....I am sure there will be another chance, i do think the 4% of dollar total seem reasonable. I know I couldn't ship 660 pounds anywhere at anytime for 40 or 50 bucks....

Bob E.


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## gadget_lover (Jan 27, 2009)

Funny, but I've used the collets to hold small parts that I want to spin in the mill while polishing, filing, etc. 

I've even used it to spin parts while misting it with spray paint. 

Daniel


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## SafetyBob (Jan 27, 2009)

Daniel, that sure gives me a few ideas for painting those hard to paint circular parts. 

Good tip. 

Bob E.


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## precisionworks (Jan 28, 2009)

> what's the consensus on import vs. name brand collets?



Like most everything, there are super high end collets, and some real junk, and the same applies to the collet chuck.

The very best chucks (aka Ultra Precision or Super Precision) have TIR of no more than .0001" measured from the taper OD to the collet pocket ID. Most chucks average .0002". Although that doesn't sound like a great difference, every .0001" reduction in TIR increases tool life by at least 10%, sometimes more.

The finest collets have TIR of no more than .0002", very good brands like Bison run .0003", and the worst run .0004" or more. Again, every .0001" reduction in TIR increases tool life by at least 10%.

Take the best chuck & collet: .0001 + .0002 = .0003" TIR

Compare to the worst: .0002 + .0004 = .0006" TIR

The first combination will give a 30% increase in tool life, the second will give a 30% decrease in tool life.* 
*


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## wquiles (Jan 28, 2009)

precisionworks said:


> *Face mill.* One usually does the trick. Mine uses the "unused" corners from the lathe tools & boring bars, so the inserts are free:thumbsup:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



You can buy (what looks to be the same identical unit) on Ebay for $95 and free shipping, if you buy the straight shank variant (instead of R8) 
http://cgi.ebay.com/CNMG-2-0-FACE-MILL_W0QQitemZ130281201373QQcmdZViewItemQQptZBI_Tool_Work_Holding?hash=item130281201373&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=72%3A1205|66%3A2|65%3A12|39%3A1|240%3A1318|301%3A0|293%3A1|294%3A50

Will


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## wquiles (Jan 29, 2009)

precisionworks said:


> *Face mill.* One usually does the trick. Mine uses the "unused" corners from the lathe tools & boring bars, so the inserts are free:thumbsup:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



As an update, I placed an order for the R8 version with Stegman, and I was told this morning that they have discontinued the part and that they have no alternative available 

Will


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## precisionworks (Jan 29, 2009)

I'd also looked at the Dolfa Maxi-Mizer face mill (Stegman Item # 6-925-220). It costs $182 on Stegman, but much cheaper (in a package) on eBay:






NOTE: the 2", R-8 shank has 4 inserts, not the five shown above on the larger diameter face mill.

http://stegmantoolcompany.thomasnet.com/item/ide-inserts-indexable-tooling-indexable-face-mills/illing-cutters-rh-cut-with-weldon-r8-and-nst-shank/6-925-220?&seo=110&bc=100|1094|1108|3001531|3001526

http://cgi.ebay.com/NEW-2"-FACE-MIL...temQQimsxZ20090125?IMSfp=TL090125165001r11103

If you figure that the 20 Valenite inserts are easily worth $100, the cost of the tool is just $100. Inserts can be SEAN-42, SEKN-42, SEHN-42, etc.


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## PEU (Jan 30, 2009)

wquiles said:


> As an update, I placed an order for the R8 version with Stegman, and I was told this morning that they have discontinued the part and that they have no alternative available
> 
> Will



 I also liked the idea of having a face mill w/ free inserts, bummer...

at ebay I only saw straight shank ones, no R8's and I guess its not a good idea to put this straight shank in an er40 collet to use it 


Pablo


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## gadget_lover (Jan 30, 2009)

I picked up a 2 inch face mill from Shars.com
http://www.shars.com/product_categories/search/?search=404-6940
It uses SPG 434 inserts. They are only a few bucks apiece.


I thought I was getting the 90 degree, but I guess I clicked on the wrong spot and ordered the 75 degree model. If I was to cut one long groove like with it like I might with an end mill I would end up with sides that slope outward. Since I bought it for facing, that is not a problem. They have many different models at shars.com. 

I've only made a few test cuts but I'm quite inpressed with it. It leaves a nice, smooth finish. IT's no Valenite, but it did not cost like a Valenite either.

Daniel


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## frisco (Jan 31, 2009)

I bought my vise maybe 12 years ago..... USA made KURT

I thank myself every time I use it.... Still square and no slop at all !!!!

Best money I ever spent.....

frisco


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