# Home Made Tank Light - The Swan Blaster 260W Short Arc



## ma_sha1

*DIY Tank Searchlight - The Swan Blaster 260W Short Arc*

Inspired by VSS-3, the most "portable" version of the military Tank light (still weight 75Lbs), I've been wanting to make a home Made Tank light that could achieve the 50 Million CPs of VSS-3 but much much lighter & truly portable.

I've mentioned this project will be the swan song of my last short-arc mods in a post somewhere, thus the name appropriately named by Ra, The Swan Blaster.

*History of my short arc mods:*

I've made 3 short arc mods, all based on UHP/P-VIP type of High Pressure mercury short arc used in DLP projectors:

*Franken Mag Short Arc NHII* flashlight ~*500,000 lux* @ 1 meter
http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?313112

*Mega Blaster*-- the MegaRay style short Arc, *5 Million lux* @ 1 meter 
http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/...t=mega+blaster

*Moon Blaster*-The Blitz Short Arc, *~16.1 Million lux *@ 1 meter 
http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/...t=moon+blaster


*The Host:* 

I decided to get a Cruise Hinds Vintage searchlight as host, to have more of a similar look to the Tank Light. This host weight in at only 17Lbs, I can easily carry it with one hand or on my shoulder should I need to do a hike to look for a beam shot location away from people. 






*The Power Source:*

Since already had this light in my mind for a long time, when I built my Portable power pack, I've made it so that it'll run Mega Blaster, Moon Blaster & the Swan Blaster. The Swan Blaster uses the 300DC piggy-back output:





I put in a 20AH Lifepo4 Battery from electric cars, Pulls 20Amp/13V, ~260W. I can run the Swan Blaster about 1 hr or Mega/Moon Blaster for about two hours. I can also fire up the Mega Blaster & Moon Blaster on it at the same time .






*The Lamp:*
The Lamp is a 230-280W UHP lamp with 1mm Arc. This is the highest power UHP/PVIP lamp with 1mm Arc that I could find a retail source for.

*The Ballast:*
The Ballast is a 250W P-VIP Ballast with a firmware upgrade to 260W, a gift from a fellow CPFer *Ot10St* who works at Osram. 
Unlike the previous Ballast I pulled from DLP projectors, this one doen't come with the PFC (Power Factor Corrector) & can not run on 100V AC. Thus, the need for the 300V DC rig.





Testing of ballast, lamp & home made 300V DC:






*The old Reflector:*
The reflector that came with the light is 8" diameter glass, long FL.
It's not high quality. I mounted the lamp with the built in elipical reflector back-wards at the focal point of the 8" glass reflector & got a horrible star & scattered hot spot and loose beam. However, it still scored 16 Million CPs. (The ballst is mounted under the light in a cage with fan coolling)

If I was to going to settle with another 16 Million cp light, this project would have been finished long time ago, but that is not the plan, a high quality short-arc reflector, i.e. Ra's Maxa Beam quality reflector is a must to bring out the true potential of this lamp...





The Old Glass Reflector in the housing:








http://img826.imageshack.us/img826/1/pvip2011catalog.jpg


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## ma_sha1

*Re: Home Made Tank Searchlight - The Swan Blaster 260W Short Arc*

*Update 4/23/12. 
Finally, after nearly two years since I started this project, the Swan Blaster came to liife 
*



*




The New Custom Reflector:*

I received my Custom 9.6" High Quality Short Arc Reflector from Optifoms, it's the one to the right. The coating I selected is called AQ, Quartz coated aluminum surface. it's a little more expensive than Rhodium, but with about 10% more reflection than Rhodium. 

It's super deep, almost entire size of the searchlight is taken up by the reflector, so I had to cut-open the back of the housing for room to mount the lamp & focusing mechanism. 





Since the reflector is 9.6", the front Glass is only 8", I had to cut away the bezel & glass to open up the front, I got it opened about about 9.5". Showing the cut=away section in the middle.
I'll get a new Lexan UV window about 9 3/4" to replace the old glass window. 





Front view of the reflector in the housing, sorry its in a protective cover to avoid dirt, so the image is not clear, but 
if you have seen the photo of Ra's Mama Beam reflector shot, that's what it looks like.





Here is the Reflector drawing & spec. The Focal point is 0.75" from the extended reflector curve ending, about 0.5" inside the opening hole. 





The rear end view with reflector in the housing:





Rigging the lamp in place for one more testing.
All the cutting & Grinding, I was worried that the ballast may get damaged. Also, break the glass reflector to peel the naked bulb out is nerve wracking :sick2:. I wear a face musk as the bulb is under high pressure even when cold. 





Yeah, still working! Thank God, I don't have another ballast nor another lamp as back-up, a broken ballast would set- this project back big time!


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## ma_sha1

Reflector & lamp mount, half way there...





The following was old cry for help that didn't pan out, Looks like I am going to Rig the lamp mount myself.

'''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''
Seeking experienced machinest with a Lathe for assistance....

Well, that's one of the reason I started the thread before finish. I am at the point of one last thing away of finishing the light up & run into a problem that I can't finish w/o a lathe. 

I would like to mount the lamp into the reflector the same way that Ra did to his Maxa Blaster. I realized that I can not do this without a metal Lathe. The lamp mounting hardware is Stainless steel. It need to have the ability to focus in & out as well as horizontal movements to center the arc.

I would like to have about one inch focusing range( Position Arc chamber at 0.5" in side from the hole, ability to move forward & backward 1/2 an inch on either direction)
since the position of arc is an estimate, and one can not test it until the lamp mounting is done & light is done get back to me. 

Ra hasn't been active recently, I borrowed his pictures here, hope he doesn't mind. This is what I need done & I'll send the reflector & bulb out.

Front





Back side:





Stay tuned...


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## Mr. Tone

Looking good. That reflector is huge, I love it. You just have to measure this at a hundred meters or more when it's done. You will have to recruit one of your family members and give them a welding shield and SPF 50 sunblock to go and hold the luxmeter! I think Ra said he couldn't get an accurate measurement for the Maxablaster from distances less than that, maybe more.


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## ma_sha1

Mr. Tone said:


> You will have to recruit one of your family members and give them a welding shield and SPF 50 sunblock to go and hold the luxmeter! I think Ra said he couldn't get an accurate measurement for the Maxablaster from distances less than that, maybe more.



100 meters is good for measuring 10 million cps. This light is aiming at 50 million cps, so I may need 500 meters for a good measurement, that' going to be tough to do. Plus, it's going to be hard to lure my family member to come & help at night, we have black bears around here . 

I bought the Lux Meter with Peak-hold function (Extech EA30 Model), technically, I can set the meter up & then do the long distance lux measurement my self. However, at 500 meters, it's going to really hard tp find my meter & aim it it in the dark.


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## Bill Idaho

And here I sit with an empty VSS-3, looking for internals. 


Y'a know, as desperate/frustrated as I am getting, I'm waiting with high hopes of being able to adapt something like this to mine.


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## Mr. Tone

ma_sha1 said:


> 100 meters is good for measuring 10 million cps. This light is aiming at 50 million cps, so I may need 500 meters for a good measurement, that' going to be tough to do. Plus, it's going to be hard to lure my family member to come & help at night, we have black bears around here .
> 
> I bought the Lux Meter with Peak-hold function (Extech EA30 Model), technically, I can set the meter up & then do the long distance lux measurement my self. However, at 500 meters, it's going to really hard tp find my meter & aim it it in the dark.



Black bears? Yikes! Those suckers can climb trees, right?

500 meters would be difficult to pull off, good luck on that. The new meter sounds cool.

Thanks for sharing all your mods/pics with us. I for one really enjoy your threads and projects. After you finish a mod I wonder what you will do next. This is the most exciting one of your mods for me. I just love the high power stuff. Even if it is not practical it is still really cool.


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## ma_sha1

Bill said:


> And here I sit with an empty VSS-3, looking for internals.
> 
> 
> Y'a know, as desperate/frustrated as I am getting, I'm waiting with high hopes of being able to adapt something like this to mine.



How come you have only 17 posts? I thought you had posted more than that?


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## ma_sha1

Mr. Tone said:


> Thanks for sharing all your mods/pics with us. I for one really enjoy your threads and projects. After you finish a mod I wonder what you will do next. This is the most exciting one of your mods for me. I just love the high power stuff. Even if it is not practical it is still really cool.



Thanks!

I am not sure what to do next, but I think this is as high power as I'd like to go.
Even with platform sharing, making one power pack for all three lights, this light's cost is blowing budget beyond I'd consider harmless hobby. For now, I am focusing on this one light only. Going to post on machine forum for some help next.


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## Bill Idaho

I HAD considerably more than 17 posts, but somewhere along the line most of them were deleted. Story of my life............

Anyway, I have kinda' done things backwards. I finished mounting the light on the trailer (technically the housing/lens/internal fan/reflector- as that's all there is right now-no bulb or ballast) and have just sat back looking and reading, hoping something would come up. Now that it's mounted, all I need to do is get the light working!


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## Mr. Tone

ma_sha1 said:


> Thanks!
> 
> I am not sure what to do next, but I think this is as high power as I'd like to go.
> Even with platform sharing, making one power pack for all three lights, this light's cost is blowing budget beyond I'd consider harmless hobby. For now, I am focusing on this one light only. Going to post on machine forum for some help next.



I have a feeling the reflector alone blew your budget! After seeing what getlit posted about his reflector cost for a one-off super candlepower design I about freaked out. I can't imagine getting much more powerful than what you are doing now without needing a portable generator and fuel supply.


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## ma_sha1

Mr. Tone said:


> I have a feeling the reflector alone blew your budget! After seeing what getlit posted about his reflector cost for a one-off super candlepower design I about freaked out. I can't imagine getting much more powerful than what you are doing now without needing a portable generator and fuel supply.



Yes, The reflector is the highest cost item. Let's just say it cost about $150 more than the Rhodium version (Ra's maxa blaster reflector is Rhodium version).
AQ gives about 10% more reflection than Rhodium. Enhanced Rhodium is similar to AQ reflection but more durable, but they don't offer it unless its for a batch of 20 reflector run.


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## Mr. Tone

ma_sha1 said:


> Yes, The reflector is the highest cost item. Let's just say it cost about $150 more than the Rhodium version (Ra's maxa blaster reflector is Rhodium version).
> AQ gives about 10% more reflection than Rhodium. Enhanced Rhodium is similar to AQ reflection but more durable, but they don't offer it unless its for a batch of 20 reflector run.



While talking about reflectors, have you ever checked into the Phoenix reflector company that has ads here on CPF? I checked out their website a couple of times and they look pretty good but a lot of that stuff is rocket science to me.


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## Illum

ma_sha1 said:


> Reserved
> *
> Seeking experienced machinest with a Lathe for assistance*....
> 
> Well, that's one of the reason I started the thread before finish. I am at the point of one last thing away of finishing the light up & run into a problem that I can't finish w/o a lathe.
> 
> I would like to mount the lamp into the reflector the same way that Ra did to his Maxa Blaster. I realized that I can not do this without a metal Lathe. The lamp mounting hardware is Stainless steel. It need to have the ability to focus in & out as well as horizontal movements to center the arc.
> 
> I would like to have about one inch focusing range( Position Arc chamber at 0.5" in side from the hole, ability to move forward & backward 1/2 an inch on either direction)
> since the position of arc is an estimate, and one can not test it until the lamp mounting is done & light is done get back to me.
> 
> Ra hasn't been active recently, I borrowed his pictures here, hope he doesn't mind. This is what I need done & I'll send the reflector & bulb out.



By the way, just in case anyone needs a good read, here were Ra's original build sometime in 2006 
http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb...T-JUST-ANOTHER-THOR-MOD-!!-(the-Maxablaster!)
That mercury arc is a beast, plus you'll need a filter glass for it... why not stay HID?


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## Echo63

Illum said:


> By the way, just in case anyone needs a good read, here were Ra's original build sometime in 2006
> http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb...T-JUST-ANOTHER-THOR-MOD-!!-(the-Maxablaster!)
> That mercury arc is a beast, plus you'll need a filter glass for it... why not stay HID?



Surface Brightness (and Arc length) are good reason to move away from HID

lets use the Maxabeam lamp as an example, its (depending on who you ask) anywhere from 1000 to 1800 Lumens, but the arc itself is only 1mm long
most of the brightness is at one end, a little hotspot around 0.1mm across 
this is pretty close to a point source, and as a result, doesnt need a massive reflector to focus it into a tight beam.
when you use a big reflector, with a tiny light source it captures more of that light, shapes it into the beam, and you get higher CP readings.
im going to make up some numbers here - but it will make sense in a moment
lets assume that the maxabeam lamp has 70% of its 1000 lumens in its hotspot - so a 0.1mm spot with 700 lumens
and a Hid lamp has 3200 lumens evenly distributed in a 4mm arc taking a 0.1mm slice of that arc gives us 80 lumens for a similar sized chunk of arc, that HID arc is 40 times larger than the hotspot in the Maxabeam XSA Lamp, and needs a much bigger reflector to focus it into a tight beam

sure HID has greater output for a given amount of power (35w for 3200 lumens Vs 75w for 1000-1800 Lumens from XSA) but to get long throwing lights from that you need a massive reflector
The XSA Lamps are very inefficient, and the Mercury lamp used by RA in the original Maxablaster falls somewhere inbetween, more efficient, small arc, but has problems with sloooow warmup, and odd colour temperature (and producing bucketloads of UV)

there was a case i heard of recently where the shield glass fell out of a large portable lighting station, and a number of people sitting in a grandstand near it got sunburn and sore eyes from the UV output - Care is needed when dealing with any high voltage/high brightness light though, the possibility of injury is severe - exploding batteries, burns from hot housings, high voltage (electric shock), UV Exposure, Exploding Bulbs (high velocity glass fragments)
whichever way you choose to make light you need to take care


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## ma_sha1

Mr. Tone said:


> While talking about reflectors, have you ever checked into the Phoenix reflector company that has ads here on CPF? I checked out their website a couple of times and they look pretty good but a lot of that stuff is rocket science to me.



I've talked with Phoenix reflector company on a prior project & looked into both Phoenix & Optiforms as well as a few others on this project.
I was trying to fill the searchlight body with the largest diameter & deepest shape possible with a High Quality 4th degree parabola.
Optiforms has a large selection in stock with many sizes, including the ideal size I need. They are un coated, once an order is put in, they'll do the custom coating, the wait time is only 3 weeks. Sales rep has knowledge & communicate very fast. I highly recommend them should anyone need a custom reflector.


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## Mr. Tone

Good luck on mounting your lamp. Those reflector pics from Ra's thread are amazing. That reflector is beautiful.


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## 51coronet

Awesome work so far. Would love to see the final result when you are finished, then again are we ever finished?
Thanks for posting a progress log with pics!


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## DM51

This looks fantastic! oo: 

Much looking forward to seeing it in action...


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## Walterk

Promising ! Nice reflector! Its a long way between idea and finished light, but hey; it keeps you from building all sorts of lights that you dont actually want..


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## lucca brassi

Great work ! Like it !:thumbsup:

Ma sha1 ... how it works (maybe ) in recoil version using like original parabola mirror ? Worse than classic parabola ?


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## ma_sha1

Walterk said:


> Promising ! Nice reflector! Its a long way between idea and finished light, but hey; it keeps you from building all sorts of lights that you dont actually want..



It's been a long time, two jobs & a new house, but the Swan blaster project must go on!
Those "unwanted" builds provided the funding to sustain the short arc projects  



DM51 said:


> This looks fantastic! oo:
> 
> Much looking forward to seeing it in action...





lucca brassi said:


> Great work ! Like it !:thumbsup:



Thanks! Hopefully I can finish some massive cutting/grinding & mount the reflector to a collar ring to be made by mag head myself



lucca brassi said:


> Great work ! Like it !:thumbsup:
> Ma sha1 ... how it works (maybe ) in recoil version using like original parabola mirror ? Worse than classic parabola ?



The re-coil version is interesting, it could be a good light if the reflector is high quality but its' old & the silver coating in the back 
is peeling, the spot is "star shaped" sort like a mis-focused Maxa Beam. Still, 16 Million cps from a vintage 8" reflector is not too bad. 

To be fair, because the recoil version used dual reflectors, the bad beam spot issue might be from the tiny built-in elliptical reflector, rather than the large 8" vintage glass reflector. I am not sure who's fault but together, they weren't good enough to be the Swan Blaster...


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## Mr. Tone

You know your are hoping to get 60" Carbon Arc performance out of something this size, you might as well come out of denial! Although, a new power supply would have to be in order, like a ghostbusters power-pack! Only 250 lbs. and it will run the light for 5 minutes!


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## BVH

Mr. Tone said:


> You know your are hoping to get 60" Carbon Arc performance out of something this size, you might as well come out of denial!



The target for the 60" CA is 800,000,000 CP, right off the manufacturer's plackard, IIRC. Read a newspaper at 5.7 miles. Lumens-wise, somewhere around 491,400 @ 42.5 Lumens per Watt. Probably more because of the Cerium core contained in the positive rod to increase output.


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## Mr. Tone

BVH said:


> The target for the 60" CA is 800,000,000 CP, right off the manufacturer's plackard, IIRC. Read a newspaper at 5.7 miles. Lumens-wise, somewhere around 491,400 @ 42.5 Lumens per Watt. Probably more because of the Cerium core contained in the positive rod to increase output.



That must have been an unbelievable sight to see when you had that monster. I don't think you could have fired that up anywhere without turning some heads. There isn't really anything out there like it, is there? It is, in a sense, the king of the hill with no regards to size of course.


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## ma_sha1

Not targeting Carbon Arc, drawing a line at portability.
I may be addicted, but never in the rehab category :devil:


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## BVH

Hmmmm....how should I take that...... Am I a prime candidate for rehab?


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## ma_sha1

BVH said:


> Hmmmm....how should I take that...... Am I a prime candidate for rehab?



I think you know the answer for that, may I say intensive care unit


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## ma_sha1

Small progress made on reflector mouting.

Cut Mad D head into 3 sections:






Two of the sections will be used to sandwich the reflector with the Mag tube being the mounting axis:






One of the mag cut piece was further grind down & is used to connect reflector to lamp mounting rig. Spring loaded Triple screw XYZ adjustment type. This rig came out of a mercury short-arc lamp house, in which it was used to mount a tiny reflector behind the lamp.





The other mag head cut piece is used as a lock ring to lock down the bottom plate using mag tube threaded neck section, so the lamp mounting rig is locked in place.





I think I am almost half way there. Just need to figure out a way to mount the lamp to the bottom plate & present the arc chamber inside the reflector at the right height.


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## Mr. Tone

That looks very interesting. What kind of blade is that in your saw? A grinder-type or something else like ceramic tile?


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## ma_sha1

Mr. Tone said:


> That looks very interesting. What kind of blade is that in your saw? A grinder-type or something else like ceramic tile?



It's just a common metal cutting blade from home depot.


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## Mr. Tone

Cool. Speaking of Home Depot I got a couple of Maglite 2D LED with the Cree XP-E in it for $15.88 each! What Mag did you sacrifice for your lamp mounting rig? A 3D incan?


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## ma_sha1

Mr. Tone said:


> What Mag did you sacrifice for your lamp mounting rig? A 3D incan?



Yes, it's a 3D Incan. I also just sacrificed a Mag 2C, I cut the tail section & mounted to the bottom plate of the lamp mounting rig. 

The Mag C tube goes into the Mag D tube, The C tube will mount the lamp & I'll be able to do focus XYZ adjustments with the tri screw set-up:

My Tri Screw Dual Mag XYZ lamp Mounting rig:


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## Mr. Tone

Talk about being resourceful! The Maglites gave up their lives for a good cause. How are you going to mount/adhere the lamp mount to the reflector?


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## ma_sha1

Mr. Tone said:


> Talk about being resourceful! The Maglites gave up their lives for a good cause. How are you going to mount/adhere the lamp mount to the reflector?



Thanks!. The lamp mount to reflector was already done, I has photos in post #29, sorry for not being clear. I cut a mag head, grind it down to a spacer, press fit into the reflector hole & then applied High Temp. (2000F) car exhaust repair putty to perm. attache it. It's the silver core in the center of this photo. Since it has the mag D-head thread, the lamp mounting rig. has a locking ring with mag D tube thread & screws right into it to lock down the lamp mounting rig.


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## Walterk

Nice work-around with the Mag-parts!


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## Mr. Tone

Ah, very cool on the mounting. What else do you have to do now to get things up and running?


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## MikeAusC

ma_sha1 said:


> It's just a common metal cutting blade from home depot.



Be careful cutting Aluminium with discs for ferrous metals - it can cause them to shatter. Al-specific cutting discs are available.


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## ma_sha1

Walterk said:


> Nice work-around with the Mag-parts!



Thanks!




Mr. Tone said:


> Ah, very cool on the mounting. What else do you have to do now to get things up and running?



Still a long way to go.

Mounting the lamp first w/o shorting out the leads
Wiring w/o soldering. need ceramic sleeve or high temp. sleeved wires better the Teflon
Fan cooling design & mount etc.


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## LightSward

Awesome! Can't wait to see this!


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## Mr. Tone

ma_sha1 said:


> Thanks!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Still a long way to go.
> 
> Mounting the lamp first w/o shorting out the leads
> Wiring w/o soldering. need ceramic sleeve or high temp. sleeved wires better the Teflon
> Fan cooling design & mount etc.



I am new to this short-arc stuff. What do you need a fan for, the ballast? How hot does that get and how quick at 260 watts output?


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## ma_sha1

LightSward said:


> Awesome! Can't wait to see this!



Thanks!



Mr. Tone said:


> I am new to this short-arc stuff. What do you need a fan for, the ballast? How hot does that get and how quick at 260 watts output?



I don't know how hot the ballast get, but both the fan & the lamp requires active cooling. The bulb's arc chamber could get up to 2000F.

The UHP technology is slow warm up type, takes a full minute or so to reach full brightness.


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## Mr. Tone

That sounds like a good challenge to get the bulb/ballast cooled. It will be interesting to see how you pull it off.


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## The_Driver

Any updates?


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## ma_sha1

The_Driver said:


> Any updates?



Not yet, It's been real busy lately, haven't got chance lately to research how to mount the lamp, hope to get back to it in an few weeks.


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## yifu

Looking foward to the beamshots! You mods never cease to amaze me!


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## ma_sha1

Thanks!

This project is getting very frustrating, being going at it for over a year, can't seem to finish it. Anyhow, here are some small progress.

Made a spacer High Temp material to mount the lamp. The material is beefed up Teflon, as see previously used by BVH in his Blitz 84W HID Mod. Good to 550 degree, I've been looking for a Electrical insulating material with Higher Temp. resistance & grindable, but have not been successful. I am still not sure if 550 is going to be sufficient, as the souce PVIP bulb will be about 2000 degrees.

Took about 2 hrs to grind the spacer to fit, it's very hard to grind for some reason:






Drill a hole between the ceramic lamp base & PTFE spacer, the lamp wire will be pulled through the hole & go out from the side of the mag tube to connect to a Electric Terminal.





Same picture except that I grind away the wall of mag tail cap, ligned with capone tape to give clearance & electrical insulation to the electrical lead at bottom of the lamp.






Next step, I'll need to mount two tiny electrical terminals, one on the side of the tube & one at bottom of the tail cap. 

*Question: *Anyone know where to get them?
They need to be small, preferably 5mm diameter round that can be mounted to metal body with drilled hole, with heat resistant plastic body & metal screw. Bottom to connect the lamp wire & screw to connect to wires coming from Ballast.
The lamp wire need to be electrically insulated from the mag tube.

I might have to go to Radio Shack & see if I can find someting like that.


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## LightSward

Very nice work! :thumbsup:


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## ma_sha1

Thanks!


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## get-lit

I just noticed this thread. I modeled your configuration, but I since I don't have an AC P-VIP lamp luminance profile, I averaged the results of the DC lamp I profiled with anode in and then anode out, and I'm coming up with 63.5 MCP using a reflector with 90% reflectance, a lens with 90% light transmission, and estimating lamp lumen output at 18200 (70 L/W @ 260W). A forward-facing retro-reflector bumps it up to 86.5 MCP. Modeled at 2000 ft distance.


For reference, I also modeled the Maxablaster and came up with 45 MCP, again without considering it's luminance concentration toward the cathode since it's a DC lamp, which I estimate provides about a 25% boost, so somewhere around 56 MCP for the Maxablaster. I'm not sure what the Maxablaster's measured CP was, but it should be fairly close. For the Maxablaster, I entered: .5mm x .5mm gap, 3500 Lumen, 9.5" CA, 1.5" V.Dia, 1.3" FL, 70% Reflectance, 90% lens light transmission.


I included the retro-reflector in your configuration since you asked about one recently, but even without a retro-reflector, this should marginally exceed the MaxaBlaster in CP, and five fold in lumen output. Pretty sure you will be quite happy. The only thing I'm not sure of is the actual reflectance of your reflector coating and the actual lumen output of the lamp.


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## ma_sha1

get-lit said:


> I just noticed this thread. I modeled your configuration, but I since I don't have an AC P-VIP lamp luminance profile, I averaged the results of the DC lamp I profiled with anode in and then anode out, and I'm coming up with 63.5 MCP using a reflector with 90% reflectance, a lens with 90% light transmission, and estimating lamp lumen output at 18200 (70 L/W @ 260W). A forward-facing retro-reflector bumps it up to 86.5 MCP. Modeled at 2000 ft distance.
> 
> 
> For reference, I also modeled the Maxablaster and came up with 45 MCP, again without considering it's luminance concentration toward the cathode since it's a DC lamp, which I estimate provides about a 25% boost, so somewhere around 56 MCP for the Maxablaster. I'm not sure what the Maxablaster's measured CP was, but it should be fairly close. For the Maxablaster, I entered: .5mm x .5mm gap, 3500 Lumen, 9.5" CA, 1.5" V.Dia, 1.3" FL, 70% Reflectance, 90% lens light transmission.
> 
> 
> I included the retro-reflector in your configuration since you asked about one recently, but even without a retro-reflector, this should marginally exceed the MaxaBlaster in CP, and five fold in lumen output. Pretty sure you will be quite happy. The only thing I'm not sure of is the actual reflectance of your reflector coating and the actual lumen output of the lamp.



Get-lit, Thanks for modeling this! I like the encouraging numbers, motivate me to get this sucker done . 

I've been targeting Maxa Blaster with this one last short arc mod. W/o modeling capabilities, I used farm boy crude methodologies: 
Since my last short arc was done with 120W P-VIP, a 9" Blitz plastic reflector (full of imperfections) & measured out 16.1 cps. I figure that 2x the power w/o increasing the arc will get me into 30 Million range, then the High End reflector (same quality as Maxa Blaster but higher reflection) plus 0.6" larger reflector diameter together should send me into 50-60 million cp zone.

I believe maxa blaster measured out at 52 million cps. You are almost spot on! I think it's 9" reflector with 75% reflection.
Yes, similar cps but 5x the lumen in the beam, in real life, it should blow away the Maxa Blaster.
(Just like my first short arc, the Mega Blaster measured at 5 Million cps, with 5x the Lumens in the beam, it blew away both of my Maxa Beams. 

FYI,

I had two Maxa Beams at the time, both were Gen II with mfg. rating of 6 million cps, they both read 2-3 million in my meter,
either mfg. rating was over stated or my meter was reading low, or perhaps, a combination of both?


----------



## get-lit

Some of the difference in readings could be accounted for with the distance the reading was taken. The greater the distance, the higher the reading, at least until atmospheric conditions begin to reduce lux at distance. The link on my last post explains what's occurring. Also might be lamp life? Some time ago I modeled the MaxaBeam and it came out just about correct after factoring the peak luminance point of the DC Xenon lamp. Keep in mind, that factor is a rough estimate. Calculations with the P-VIP lamp should be fairly close since it's an AC lamp without a single point of peak luminance, but then again, I don't have the illuminance distribution measured and profiled for this lamp.


----------



## ma_sha1

get-lit said:


> Calculations with the P-VIP lamp should be fairly close since it's an AC lamp without a single point of peak luminance, but then again, I don't have the illuminance distribution measured and profiled for this lamp.



Hi Get lit, can you calculate the CPs again with 60lm/watt instead of 70lm/watt? I believe 60 is closer to UHP/P-VIP lamp efficiency.

The 120 UHP/P-VIP lamps are 7000-7500 lumens, average out 60lm/watt


----------



## get-lit

120W is probably less efficient than what you're using. The higher the power, the more efficient. The lamp I'm using is nearly 90 L/W. I'd say you're at least 65 but I'm guessing 70.

Also, you can scale the estimated CP with the estimated Lumen output linearly...
70/60 = 63.5/x
x = 54.4

Also, I created this tool to compare relative outputs of different configurations, not specifically to predict CP. However, it has been consistent with measurements I've made. Nothing beats getting it done and taking measurements.


----------



## ma_sha1

Just found a new Osram catalog. Check out 69793. a new 230W bulb with only 0.8mm arc.
Previously 1mm arc is the smallest arc for UHP/P-VIP bulb, The 0.8mm arc is very new, some haven't gotten the catalog numbers yet . I am using the 180-230W bulb/1mm arc, over driving to 260W.

That's a 20% lux gain, an easy 10 million cp gain with bulb change on a 50million cp light.


----------



## get-lit

I'm coming up with 84 MCP with that lamp in your configuration with 14000 estimated lux; 116 MCP with forward-facing retro-reflector.


----------



## ma_sha1

get-lit said:


> I'm coming up with 84 MCP with that lamp in your configuration with 14000 estimated lux; 116 MCP with forward-facing retro-reflector.



Thanks for doing the modeling again!

It's incredible what the little reduction in arc gap could do to the cps. 
Combine the 0.8mm arc with Epson's E-torl, which combines the UHP technology with a built-in retro-reflector would make a killer lamp.

E-Torl:


----------



## get-lit

There is a big difference. I did the first one with 1mm gap, should it have been .9mm?

How Epson recently patented the retro-reflector is beyond me since the retro-reflector's already been in use for decades.


----------



## ma_sha1

get-lit said:


> There is a big difference. I did the first one with 1mm gap, should it have been .9mm?



No, 1mm is correct, that's the spec on my lamp.



get-lit said:


> How Epson recently patented the retro-reflector is beyond me since the retro-reflector's already been in use for decades.



Same concept can get a patent on different applications. Not to brag, I have 5 patents, been through the process a few times, it's not that tight of a process.

Epson has the first patent on use in a lamp with UHP technology. However, an earlier Philips UHP paper already published a prototype with retro-reflector concept, not an actual reflector, but high temp. mirror coating on half of the arc chamber. This should be considered public info. prior art of extremely similar concept. Patent office probably would have turned the Epson patent down if they had diligently read all the UHP papers.


----------



## get-lit

I've drafted a few but never filed because I've changed my interests. I've read that with the new patent reform, the PTO is now going with the "first to file" system over the "first to invent" system in order to conserve resources in litigation of prior art, the America Invents Act. Before this act, the Epson patent could still be challenged with the Philips paper. Not sure I like it and I don't think there's any novelty when an age old concept is simply applied for another use. There's been retro-reflectors on all kinds of lights from search lights to automobile headlights.


----------



## ma_sha1

get-lit said:


> Not sure I like it and I don't think there's any novelty when an age old concept is simply applied for another use.



I agree, but companies can leverage their patents, even if it obviously makes no sense, to provide their lawyers the "rights to battle". As you know, legal battle outcome often depends on who's got better lawyers.


----------



## ma_sha1

One small progress:

Extended the factory lamp wire through the adaptor area,
the extention wire is from HID bulb & the connecting is mechanical as solder will melt at this temp. hopefully, I've a good connection.


----------



## ma_sha1

Started working one of the last hurdles: the cooling:

Air flow across the lamp is required, this will have to be achieved by flow through the gap between Mag C tube bulb holder & mag D tube reflector mounting hole. 

The Gap is pretty small. about 1mm. I've opened ul that space to 2-3mm gap by
grinding down the mag C tube & boring out the Mag D tube. You can't really see it in the picture below. How ever, you can see the many holes I drilled on the top mounting plate:

I need a fan to blow to it down through the holes on the top plate, but the fan needs to surround the Mag C tube, I.E. a fan with a big 1 inch hole in the middle? I can't find any fan like that. 

Anyone has seen a fan that could work in this situation? I'd love to see some recommendations. So close to finishing, the cooling can not be a bottle neck, 
it need sto be small but powerful. Otherwise, poof.


----------



## FRITZHID

perhaps something in the vacuum cleaner dept? just an idea, high air flow, small tube.


----------



## ma_sha1

Good idea, computer has it, called Blower Fan,
I need to look into this..


----------



## FRITZHID

was just an idea, it's what i would use if i needed high vol air flow in a small area, and with some tweeking, 12 motor and rheostat, you can make it portable, adjustable and less power hungry.


----------



## ma_sha1

Ordered three things to rig this up:

1. 75x75mmx 25mm blower fan ~25cfm/12v, to be mounted on the side of the light
2. 60x60mmx15mm blower, to be taken apart & use the shell only to reverse mount over the top plate, as the receiver air dome to direct the air down through the holes.
3. 1" Bicycle tube to connect the two


----------



## get-lit

ma_sha1 said:


> One small progress:
> 
> Extended the factory lamp wire through the adaptor area,
> the extention wire is from HID bulb & the connecting is mechanical as solder will melt at this temp. hopefully, I've a good connection.



*Alumiweld* that connection with a propane torch. Quick and easy.

Also, regarding the deep reflectors and enhancement/protective coatings... Dielectric enhancement/protective coatings greatly reduce reflectance at angles approaching 45 degrees and beyond. These coatings really mostly benefit flat style mirrors, but not so good for deep reflectors. With deep reflectors, the best collimated light is produced from angles as great as 120 degrees and these coatings cause havoc at those angles, absorbing most of the upper wavelengths of light, making for a dimmer greenish beam. With large reflection angles, you want the light to bounce off the outer surface coat. I'm not sure your reflector is affected by this because I'm not sure the AQ coating falls into this category of dielectric coatings. It would be interesting to know.



ma_sha1 said:


> One small progress:
> 3. 1" Bicycle tube to connect the two



Pure ingenuity.


----------



## ma_sha1

Almost there, the last of the steps, pardon my terrible camera phone.

Took the guts out of the smaller blower fan, reverse mounted over as the air duct collector.





The bigger blower fun is mounted to the side of the light:





Reflector & lamp mounted:





Front lens & Bezel installed.


----------



## JetskiMark

Impressive project. As are your previous builds.

I'm looking forward to the beam shots.


----------



## LightSward

Great work! 

I like the cooling system. Does the tube ever collapse when the fan is blowing from kinks? I may look into doing soethin like this...; I am working on an optimum system for the 26 inch LightSport and 30 inch NightHawk rebuild.

Looking forward to the beam shots!:thumbsup:


----------



## ma_sha1

Thanks! 

The Tube won't collapse as the fan blowing create positive pressure just like when you pumping bicycle tire:

*Picture of my ugly *ss bicycle tube air duct:*
I temp. taped some leaks fora test run, that's why the messy blue tapes. Will pretty it up with Carbon fiber in due time.


----------



## ma_sha1

Finally, after nearly two years, the Swan Blaster came to life


----------



## Walterk

Congratulations! Nice beam !!


----------



## FRITZHID

Ma Sha, Very Very nice! it may not be pretty yet, but that beam is beautiful! Congrats on getting her up and running!lovecpf


----------



## ma_sha1

Walterk said:


> Congratulations! Nice beam !!



Thanks Walterk!




FRITZHID said:


> Ma Sha, Very Very nice! it may not be pretty yet, but that beam is beautiful! Congrats on getting her up and running!lovecpf




Thanks!


----------



## ma_sha1

Couple more pictures


----------



## FRITZHID

:thumbsup:


----------



## jmpaul320

OMG thats insane


----------



## ma_sha1

Want to see something Insane? 
The center of the front lens melted after 15 min test run. 
Other than that, the fans & air duct works well, I can feel hot wind coming up through the top vent during operation & lamps didn't burn out after 15min straight run.


----------



## FRITZHID

ok, well glass it is then? or are you going to up the cooling airflow? the IR from the bulb wouldn't have done that, would it??


----------



## ma_sha1

It's polycabonate (lexan). I need to drill some holes at the front edge for additional air flow. 
I also need to look into a large custom borofloat glass window with AR coating. If anyone knows where to get it, let me know.


----------



## jmpaul320

after seeing that lens melted i need to clean out my diaper... this thing is nuts!:devil:


----------



## Illum

no kidding! oo:


----------



## LightSward

Nice beam shots!

For the lens melting, drill a big hole in the center and attach a rain vent onto the lens. LOL...just kidding, my 'Mini-LightSward with 1,200 watt HMI in a Cyclops housing, I had two large vents just behind the lens.





Here, before some modifications to the front lens cooling system, the 1,200 watts was IR cooking the black rubber sealer, replaced with shiny metal and air vents enlarged behind lens, which stays cool now.


Hopefully my soon to be re-lit, NightHawk with it's 'bubbling' adhesive taped plastic mirror reflector will make something resembling a beam.

Nice work.


----------



## The_Driver

That thing looks awesome :thumbsup: 
Can't ait for more beamshots and lux measurements


----------



## ma_sha1

@lightSward,

Thanks! I like your DIY mirrors. FIY, the camera I used is not expensive DSLR, it's just a P&S, cost about $150. 
FUji FinePix, F70 EXR. It has full manual control & 10x Optical zoom. One of the best kept secrets

Drilled a bunch of vents & did a bunch of search last night & spammed out seven quote requests to Borofloat glass manufactures.


----------



## Echo63

Wow, that is an incredible beam.

Very jealous of you light, I wish I had the skills, time and money to be able to build something like this safely.


----------



## get-lit

ma_sha1 said:


> Finally, after nearly two years, the Swan Blaster came to life



Very nice. A classic short-FL reflector beam, with an intense centralized beam surrounded by a "mini" flood as seen in the trees and roof top, as a result of the reflector's mix of long and short source-to-reflection distances. Would be interesting to see the beam with the stock long-FL reflector as well.


----------



## ma_sha1

get-lit said:


> Very nice. A classic short-FL reflector beam, with an intense centralized beam surrounded by a "mini" flood as seen in the trees and roof top, as a result of the reflector's mix of long and short source-to-reflection distances. Would be interesting to see the beam with the stock long-FL reflector as well.



Thanks!

I had taken some beam shots when I had the stock reflector set-up like this re-coil style: 






But the beam was super ugly, so I didn't keep any photos. The mirror coating was peeling-off & the beam spot had many radiation lines.
If I had a good stock reflector, it'd have been an easier build, could have finished it long time ago. I like the re-coil style in that it had zero spill. Also, I used the lamp's built-in elliptical reflector without peeling the bare lamp out.


----------



## get-lit

I just re-read and saw you went from 8" CA long-FL to 9.6" CA short-FL. The larger CA is going to give the edge. If the lamp has 1mm x 1mm luminous area with no emphasis in either dimension, the CP will be about the same with any reflector of the same CA, with the difference being in the beam pattern. You've really come up with a nicely optimized design.

By the way, positioning a lamp mounted with an elliptical reflector at the focal point of a parabolic reflector is not going to work. You'd have to position the focal point of the elliptical reflector at the focal point of the parabolic. For example, if the focal point of the elliptical is 4 inches from the lamp source, and the long-FL parabolic was 3", you'd have to position the lamp source 7" from the vertex of the parabolic. Same goes for when using an elliptical reflector with a lens. All that length is what makes elliptical designs comparatively on the large side.


----------



## ma_sha1

I did. For the recoil style set-up, I placed the Elliptical focal point at the focal point of parabola mirror.
Theses projector lamps have extremely short focal length, the focal point is about an inch or so out. The mirror has very long focal point, about 5-6" or so based on memory.

I was able to focus it ok, hot spot with lux of 16million cps, but so much lights are lost on the star radiation stripes seen around the hot spot, like 2/3 of the lights didn't get into the spot. That's when I decided to go with a top quality parabola reflector & also gain as big a size as the light could hold.


----------



## get-lit

With such a miss-match in focal lengths, what very little light that would actually be utilized would not be utilized all that well. Your decision turned out great.


----------



## ma_sha1

First quote came back on the front lens, crazy price for a piece of glass 

"Borofloat glass, 
AR coated. AR coating withstand high temperature400F

247mm diameter,
5mm thickness
AR [email protected]


Qty: 1pcs
Unit price: USD 630/pcs
Shipping charge: USD50"


----------



## TEEJ

ma_sha1 said:


> First quote came back on the front lens, crazy price for a piece of glass
> 
> "Borofloat glass,
> AR coated. AR coating withstand high temperature400F
> 
> 247mm diameter,
> 5mm thickness
> AR [email protected]
> 
> 
> Qty: 1pcs
> Unit price: USD 630/pcs
> Shipping charge: USD50"



That's actually not that bad for custom glass.

I mean, its a lot of money, but, well, luckily you're a rich man.

:nana:


----------



## ma_sha1

TEEJ said:


> That's actually not that bad for custom glass.
> 
> I mean, its a lot of money, but, well, luckily you're a rich man.
> 
> :nana:



Hahahah, very funny TJ, Don't make me "Tell on you" on the true value of the bags of lights you brought to the PF18 meet, she'll think she married a rich man who's hiding money from her :devil:

My 2nd quote just came in, it's even worse.

"The MOQ for your specification is 4pcs.

Unit price:350.00USD/PCS.
Delivery time:40-45days.
The freight charge by DHL:340.00USD."


----------



## missionaryman

I really hate the reluctance from manufacturers to go outside the square, if they bothered looking they'd probably find they had a scrap that may be close but not exactly what you wanted and could do it for $50 but instead they quote worst case scenario based on using an entire sheet and re-tooling from scratch. 

My work do similar things like that when quoting custom work and blow out prices exorbitantly then one day the owner's mate needs something completely custom and we're all forced to find a solution for $50.00 which surely enough we do





ma_sha1 said:


> Hahahah, very funny TJ, Don't make me "Tell on you" on the true value of the bags of lights you brought to the PF18 meet, she'll think she married a rich man who's hiding money from her :devil:
> 
> My 2nd quote just came in, it's even worse.
> 
> "The MOQ for your specification is 4pcs.
> 
> Unit price:350.00USD/PCS.
> Delivery time:40-45days.
> The freight charge by DHL:340.00USD."


----------



## get-lit

This cost makes no sense. Borofloat glass is the less expensive alternative to Pyrex, and Pyrex is damn cheap.

Now if you could get a quote for Gorilla or Dragon glass, you're my new best friend.


----------



## ma_sha1

get-lit said:


> Now if you could get a quote for Gorilla or Dragon glass, you're my new best friend.



You should have asked earlier, I used to work for Corning.

OK, where there is a will, there is a way! I figured out a way to solve this problem inexpensively 

*Step One:*
Getting ready to retrieve the AR coated High Temp Glass from a UHP lamp. Note the face mask, safety first! UHP lamp is under 800 PSI pressure cold.





This is the largest UHP lamp available, the front glass is just over 3".





*Step 2:*
Put it in a bag & Hammer the reflector, then tear apart carefully with plier to retreve the front glass.





*Step 3:*
Drill a 3" hole in the Lexan Window, hard to see the AR glass placed over the hole, as it hardly reflect light. 







*Step 4:*
Coming soon...


----------



## FRITZHID

VERY Innovative!!!!!!! way to use your noodle!


----------



## get-lit

ma_sha1 said:


> You should have asked earlier, I used to work for Corning.



Grr! No connections now? Very resourceful method for the AR glass btw


----------



## ma_sha1

FRITZHID said:


> VERY Innovative!!!!!!! way to use your noodle!



Thanks!




get-lit said:


> Grr! No connections now? Very resourceful method for the AR glass btw



Sorry buddy, I left Corning almost 10 years. There are Chinese mfg. selling them on Alibaba, but minimum 1000 pieces. Also, I am not sure the temp. resistance & it they can withstand the heat from 1000W short arc?

You might want to look into what's the glass used as window for UHP/P-VIP lamps? 
they are so close to the short arc source, probably can withstand heat of 1000 degrees
Plus, they are all AR coated.


----------



## get-lit

My application has forced air cooling and the glass temp won't touch 250F. If I can't get Gorilla glass or Dragon glass, I see no reason not to use standard tempered glass just as high power searchlights.


----------



## ma_sha1

Only 250F? 

In that case, you can use lexan/polycarbonate as well (heat resistant up to 275F), I got mine from a guy on ebay that does custom cuts. For 11"-12" in your case (If I remember correctly), it'll only cost about $15 a piece (1/4 inch thick). At this thickness, glass is going to be pretty heavy. My host came with glass lens that weight a few lbs by itself. 

But if the temp goes higher than what you anticipated, you'll end up having what I had, a melted center.
I also have forced-air cooling, but I forgot to drill holes at the front. Just drilled a bunch of holes, should be much better now.


----------



## get-lit

Polycarbonate would get much hotter because it doesn't dissipate the heat generated from its light absorption.


----------



## LightSward

Find some Pyrex maybe even as cooking ware with a smooth surface, or round Pyrex plates from a science supply. I use a Pyrex cylinder right next to my 1,200 watt HMI short arc theater light I use on many of my searchlights. With minimal air cooling, the surface barely gets hot, with almost no optical distortion. This way the air is forced to blow right next to the bulb and socket.

If I use a standard flat lens and have a heat issue, I often put a big hole in the middle and add a water resistant vent to protect against the elements.


----------



## ma_sha1

I only need the center being glass. The guys I am ordering Polycarbonate lens from found me a rare piece AR coated Polycarbonate, I am waiting for it to arrive & re-do the lens...


----------



## ma_sha1

Finally, the new AR coated Polycarbonate came in. At this level, 5-8% additional transmission is worth 2-4 million cps, it's certainly worth start over again.

Cut the center hole, mounted the AR UHP glass to the center of AR PC window using triple suspended screws. The screws are metal, to prevent melting the hole in the PC, I shielded the screw hole with High Temp. Capone tube & separated PC from UHP glass with Teflon washer. whola, it's done:

The window is nearly invisible besides the 3" junction circle:






View at an angle, you can see the gap between UHP glass & the PC window hole, this means cool air can get in between & help to cool the edge of PC, I think this time it won't have meltdown issue any more.


----------



## Walterk

Creative! Necessity is the mother of inventions huh... Looks good. But you have to start sewing a dustcover now


----------



## get-lit

Interesting setup. I'd like to use Polycarbonate for a lens, but with the higher output I think it would cause issues when the lens gets some debris or scratches on it which would begin absorbing more heat from the light. Otherwise, I really want to like Polycarbonate.


----------



## ma_sha1

Agree, heat resistant glass or AR glass would be better, at 260W, I've already passed the limit of PC.
Hope you can find a source with reasonable cost. Thinner, lighter too, the glass came with my light is 1/4" thick & weight several lbs. 
The same 1/4" think PC on the other hand, weights like nothing. Now I got lucky & got AR coating, also have an extra piece for spare, very happy with how this came out.


----------



## ma_sha1

It's been raining today & just stopped around late afternoon, I am eager to fire it up again & get some lux measurements. I mounted a platform on the big center tree at 200 feet out so that I can place the lux meter on it.

Gears for tonight: Swan Blaster, the power pack & the tripod





Camera on manual setting is same as the other day when I did FF3 beam shots. 1" exposure, ISO 200, F3.3





Zoomed in, the lux meter is mounted on the tree, but you can't see it, as it's completely washed out.





Retrieved the lux meter from the tree & the peak hold function recorded 11.49 klux. 200 feet is 61 meters. 

The cps = 11,490*61*61 = 42.8 Million cps

Now, that's lots of cps, slightly higher than Ra's first published Maxa Blaster cps. The MB was later raised to 52 million cps after some tuning & measuring at much further distance. 

I am still not able to get a perfect focus yet, certainly need further turning & focus adjustment The air is wet tonight, & it started raining so I had to end it after about 20 min run.

I need to measure it again, need a dry & clear day, a clean air location, at least several hundred meters away to get the true potential of the swan blaster cps. But for now, I am happy with 42.8 million for it's first cp measurement.





Equipment check-up after the run. One last photo showing the front lens assembly, in perfect condition! Also a cheer for the mosquito zapper, a wonder tool for flasholics conducting summer beam shots. The UVs from the light attracted lots of mosquitos, they quickly found me & launched relentless attack. Not tonight, suckers, what followed was instant death penalty by electrocution!


----------



## LightSward

Nice beam! Keep up the great work!


----------



## The_Driver

Amazing, I really enjoy your work here lovecpf:thumbsup:


----------



## ma_sha1

*DIY Tank Searchlight - The Swan Blaster 260W Short Arc*



LightSward said:


> Nice beam! Keep up the great work!





The_Driver said:


> Amazing, I really enjoy your work here lovecpf:thumbsup:



Thanks guys! lovecpf too , from discovering CPF & starting out with Mag Solitaire mod, it's been several years, I've learned a lot from reading other threads, Especially, Ra's Maxa Blaster has become a major motivation for my various short arc mods.

Ra's original thread, in 2006, was such a ground breaking mod on CPF, it took six years for another *portable DIY light* to catch up on the cps:

http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?125819-NOT-JUST-ANOTHER-THOR-MOD-!!-%28the-Maxablaster!%29


Ra said:


> 38 million cp's create a spot on clouds up to 4 miles high with ease:




However, I think Swan Blaster could spank Maxa Blaster in a shoot out, because Maxa Blaster has only 4000 lumens or so, *Swan Blaster? 16,000 lumens!
*
*To see an example* of high-lumen short arc (Mega Blaster) spanking low-lumen short arc (Maxa Beam) with similar cps, see the superlight shoot out page here:
http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?330370-Superlights-shoot-out-The-ShortArcs


----------



## Walterk

ma_sha1 said:


> The cps = 11,490*61*61 = 42.8 Million cps



Congratulations ! Thats really an impressive accomplishement!


----------



## jmpaul320

ma_sha1 said:


>



i think i need to change my diaper


----------



## ma_sha1

Walterk said:


> Congratulations ! Thats really an impressive accomplishement!




Thanks!

The number will still improve with time, playing with focusing & look for a better measurement location. Ra did beam shot at an observatory for a reason. My house is at sea level. I need to look for a place with high elevation, dry air, low atmosphere density. Observatory would be great. I'll need to explore around a bit with hiking first... 

Anyone lives in CT or MA that might know a place between Hartford & Mass (Within 1 hr driving from zip code 06095) which meet these criteria? 

--Mountain or Hill top >1000 feet elevation (~300 meters above sea level)
--Dry air, with over 200 meters (at least over 100 meters) open space on top
--Can drive car up there


----------



## Walterk

Don't bother about heigth, but take the chance when the air is dry.


----------



## ma_sha1

Walterk said:


> Don't bother about heigth, but take the chance when the air is dry.



Observatory is always on mountain top & away from cities, air quality & thin air are important for star gazing.
Not sure how much it'll help on keeping the inverse square law being true in terms of lux measurement, but the longer 
the distance I measure, I'd imagine the more important the air quality becomes? 

I wish there's some data on air quality vs invesse square law some where?


----------



## get-lit

I calculated MCP at various distances with your configuration having 18200 Lamp Lumen (estimated from 70 L/W x 260W), 98% Reflectance AQ Reflector and 90% Transparent Polycarbonate Lens.

200' 44.465 MCP
500' 60.505 MCP
750' 65.83 MCP
1000' 68.87 MCP
2000' 74.02 MCP
3000' 75.915 MCP
4000' 76.9 MCP
5000' 77.505 MCP
10000' 78.745 MCP
100000' 79.895 MCP
1000000' 80.015 MCP
10000000' 80.02 MCP
10000000' 80.025 MCP
100000000' 80.025 MCP

I'm sure there's some info out there somewhere about light absorption/scatter with distance through the atmospheric conditions that would allow you to determine the optimal measurement distance for your light. I'll do some reading. That Polycarbonate is blocking pretty much ALL of the UV light BTW, but the bugs still use the blue light to find food.

EDIT: With thin dry clean air, visible light is not absorbed through the entire thickness of the atmosphere, however light toward the blue end of the spectrum does scatter through the atmosphere, which is why you see a blue beam with a white spot. So the blue light scatter is really the only hindrance. Probably the best bet is to take the measurement as far as you can in clean dry high altitude air, measure the color temp and measure it up close, and then compare the different color temps to calculate the amount of blue light lost at the measured distance so you can add it in.


With all this in mind, it makes me wonder what one is able to claim the actual CP of their light is. Theoretically, your light is 80 MCP in space, but you can't use the light in space and 0.00086125 lux at 189 miles for 80 MCP is not very usable, although it's still well within our threshold of low light Scotopic vision (0.00001 lux). Maybe there should be a real world CP rating (@1 lux) and a SVCP (Space Visible Candle Power) rating :thinking:

For a real world calculation in your case, you'd get *1 lux at 29,250 ft (5.539 miles) giving you 79.58 MCP*, which rounds to 80 MCP anyhow. If you were to take a measurement at that distance, you'd have to use a highly accurate lux meter and zero it with the ambient light, and compensate for atmospheric blue light loss using a color temp meter.

I think it's more than fair to compensate for blue light loss with a real world CP rating because seeing the beam in the air is a huge part of the fun of these lights. On the other hand, you wouldn't compensate for blue light loss if you were only concerned with light on target, say for search and rescue missions etc. It would probably be a significant difference since these are high Kelvin lights. I think true search and rescue lights should ideally be low Kelvin so you only see the light on target and not the beam, but high Kelvin is much more fun in the sky.

Aside from all the ranting, if you get a good enough measurement at 5-1/2 miles and compensate for atmospheric blue light loss, you have yourself an 80 MCP light :thumbsup:


----------



## ma_sha1

Get lit, 

How do you come up with the increased Cps? My measurement was done at 200 feet. Are you saying if I measure it at 500 feet, assuming clean & dry air, I'll gain another 15 mcp or so? I don't really need 60mcp, as long as I get to beat Ra's Maxa Blaster 52MCP portable DIY projection record, that'll be mission accomplished 

As much as I love to see the numbers from your table, it doesn't behave like the inverse square law, what equation did you us? :thinking:


----------



## get-lit

Yes, you will gain according to the chart, assuming you compensate for lux loss due to atmospheric blue light scatter with distance. No, it's not the inverse square law. It's simply taking measurements at distances which reveal true candlepower. Here's an excerpt taken from the notes for my *Beam Calculator*...

"You may notice when taking measurements at varying distances that the beam from a parabolic reflector is not directed solely with linear divergence. The beam is a reflected image of the source, in the shape of an annulus (doughnut shape) that encircles a blurred centerline formed by the reflection diameters from the vertex hole diameter to the aperture diameter. The thickness of the annulus increases with distance, but the centerline diameter does not. The static diameter of the centerline induces a static affect on beam diameter, and with increased distance, has less affect upon total beam diameter than divergence. Therefore, measurements taken at greater distance yield greater candlepower."


----------



## ma_sha1

Ra always stated that the reflector is not fully "lit up" unless get over 100 to 200 meter distance, I never understand exactly what that means. neither is above write-up of yours, but that's OK. 

Now, how do you compensate refraction loss?
I would like to use a simple equation on top of the reverse square law for CP equation, for example, a correction factor as a percentage, for a given color temp. My lamp is 8000K, what would be the % Blue Light Scattering loss ?

In your online calculator, you have P-VIP AC lamp listed in "Peak Luminous Area Concentration", but not listed as a selectable lamp type??


----------



## ma_sha1

magna light has a nice little table of data, lux measured at various distances.
I'll make some plots of cps. vs. measuring distances..

http://www.magnalight.com/absolutenm/templates/template.aspx?articleid=28&zoneid=1


----------



## get-lit

*- EDITED FOR CORRECTION -*

CP calculations involving the Inverse Square Law do not apply, at least directly, to lights in the real world, including flashlights, searchlights, and lasers, because the calculations do not include the distance at which the beam divergence would meet to a point behind the light. The Inverse Square Law is an approximation that becomes more accurate further from the aperture because that missing distance to the diversion point behind the light becomes less relative to distance between the aperture and point of measurement. (More info and diagrams in *post #128* below)

With higher system etendue (which includes aperture diameter, vertex diameter, focal length, and luminous area), the further behind the point of divergence is located, and the further you'll have to take measurements to get more accurate CP calculations. For instance, larger apertures and smaller the luminous areas produce higher system etendue, and need to be measured further for accuracy. Lasers also have very high etendue, and likewise must be measured very far for accurate CP calculations.

This formula is supposed to address this directly:

The law for an intensity at distance "d" is I = Io(w/θ)²/(d + w/θ)²

Where:
I = intensity at distance "d"
Io = intensity at the tip of the laser
w = width of the beam at the tip of the laser
θ = beam divergence (in radians)

I've tested this and it does work, but there's two things to keep in mind.

First is that it uses the angle of the full beam as beam divergence in radians, not just the divergence of the half beam that would make a right triangle.

Second is that in order to apply this to the searchlight, you must apply it as though the "tip of the laser" is a good distance from the searchlight, say 50', and measure the diameter of the beam at that point to use as the "width of the beam at the tip of the laser". The distance "d" would then be offset by the new initial distance (50' for instance).

We could use a measured lux reading at a closer distance to extrapolate for a much larger distance which could then be used to calculate CP. The problem with this applications with a parabolic reflector, especially of short FL, is that the beam intensity is not uniform within the beam divergence (θ radians) due to the variance in reflection distance from source to reflector surface from vertex to aperture, so this will not work directly. There may be a way to make it work hopefully with some degree of accuracy but it would take a lot more thought. For now this law can help in another way.

We could still take very long distance measurements and account for atmospheric blue light refraction. Here's what I propose...

There's four factors:
1. The distance through the atmosphere
2. The density of the atmosphere due to elevation pressure
3. The relative amount of blue light in the beam
4. Our relative brightness perception of blue light

I think the best way to derive a simple atmospheric refraction compensation formula is by using a lux meter with a white laser and color filters to create various color temps. You'd take the following steps for a given altitude and white laser with a filter to match the color temperature of the light you're using:

1. Measure lux at a distance A from the laser.

2. Measure lux at a distance B from the laser.

3. Calculate how much the lux difference between A and B deviates from the "intensity at distance" law cited above.

4. Apply the deviation result to compensate for atmospheric refraction at any distance linearly relative to the distance between A and B.


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## ma_sha1

I plotted out the data on Magna site on those smaller HIDs. 
I think it clearly shows it's necessary to measure lux at longer distances, especially for lights with higher CPs.


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## get-lit

In the diagram below, the green lines are the distance from the source to the lens, the blue lines are the lens to the point of lux measurement, and the red lines are the distance at which the beam divergence meets to a point behind the light. If CP is calculated using the inverse square law with the distance being from the lux measurement to the aperture, you will get significantly lower CP because the inverse square law also includes the distance from the divergence point behind the light rather than from just the aperture.





Again as system etendue increases with larger lenses and smaller light sources, the light becomes more collimated, and the divergence point extends further behind the light, further distorting CP calculations that don't account for the distance to the divergence point behind the light.

On the other hand, as the measurement distance increases, that distance increases relative to the unaccounted distance to the divergence point behind the light, and the CP calculation becomes more accurate.

Ideally, you'd just include the distance to the divergence point behind the light and you'd be set. To do this, you'd measure beam diameter at a distance relative to the aperture diameter to calculate the beam divergence angle, use the divergence angle to determine the divergence point distance behind the lens, and add that distance to the lux measurement distance from the lens, and then you're set for calculating CP using the inverse square law.

The same principle applies to reflectors, but not so well for short FL parabolic reflectors. Since the reflection distances from the source to the lens surface varies from the reflector aperture to the reflector vertex, the beam divergence angle and intensity is not consistent. You get a spot and a mini flood, and a variance of everything in between. The problem here is that since the beam divergence angles are inconsistent, so is the distance behind the light at which the beam divergence angles meet.

In the diagram below, the source light reflecting closer to the aperture has a longer reflection distance than the source light reflecting closer to the vertex. As a result, the source light reflecting closer to the aperture has less beam divergence, greater collimation, beam intensity, and divergence point distance behind the light than the the source light reflecting closer to the vertex.





I'm looking into a workable method to accurately estimate a workable divergence point distance for making a peak CP calculation with short FL reflectors. Hopefully I'll come up with something useful. I won't need to do this for my light however. Since it's a long FL, there's little variance in the source light reflection distances from aperture to vertex, with very little variance in the beam divergence angle.


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## ma_sha1

Bravo, Get Lit.

Thanks very much for the detailed write-up & drawings. I think I finally got it. 
*
To put it in layman's terms: *

---Inverse Square Law requires point source, Flashlight has a "pseudo point source" behind the actual surface area of light source

---CP conversion is flawed by "distance error": I.E distance used in calculation is to flashlight, but the inverse square law only applies to point source behind it. 

--- Longer distance =less impact from distance error, more accurate cp measurements


----------



## get-lit

Correct. Remember, it's not the distance to the light source itself, it's the distance to the point at which the beam divergence "would" meet to a point behind the light.

I tried to come up with an easy way to make this work for short FL parabolic reflectors, by using just the inner diameter of the beam containing the peak lux, but but it's just not going to work. Unfortunately, as far as I can figure, very long distant lux measurements with compensation for atmospheric blue light scatter is the only way to accurately calculate CP for lights with short FL and even medium FL parabolic reflectors.


----------



## ma_sha1

get-lit said:


> very long distant lux measurements with compensation for atmospheric blue light scatter is the only way to accurately calculate CP for lights with short FL and even medium FL parabolic reflectors.



I am not too worried for compensation, actually, I don't want to use compensation.
Ra's 52Milion CP measurement came out of very long distance measurement, no compensation I believe, so I need to beat 52 Mil w/o compensation


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## get-lit

It would be nice to include the loss as a way of measuring the total beam intensity. Of course if you wanted to strictly measure beam intensity you see in the in the air, you'd be better off using a method that measures the intensity of the light reflected from just the air at a distance.


----------



## get-lit

EDIT: I used the formula I arrived at to create a *calculator* for determining beam divergence, the divergence point, and full candlepower with just a close distance measurement, but unfortunately it only works for lights having a uniform beam, such as lens searchlights and long FL parabolic reflector searchlights, but not medium FL nor short FL reflector searchlights.



...I also updated the more comprehensive beam calculator to include Short Arc Mercury AC Lamps, and generated some beam models I thought you'd like to compare with your beam shots...

*Beam Alone (@ 200' Distance)*






*Beam with Data (@200' Distance)* (Additional ~2MCP from your measurement could be due to atmospheric loss)






*Beam with Data (@10000' Distance)*


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## ma_sha1

Awesome !

The beam profile look very similar to what I have, bright spot with corona.
I couldn't focus it to Maxa Beam like spot only, w/o corona. 

Do you know what would it take to focus into a spot only?
I bought the short EFL Parabola similar profile to Maxa Beam, just bigger.
I am wondering if Maxa Beam is not a true Parabola, rather, modified curve to accomodate non point source?


----------



## get-lit

Have you seen the Maxabeam first hand? It is a parabolic through and through and it does have a corona. Corona only shows when illuminating objects at close distance. Look at the last two beam models I made of your light. The first at 200' has a larger corona in relation to the beam center. The second at 100000' has a smaller (actually larger but much dimmer) corona in relation to the beam center. Most Maxabeam beamshots are long distance, and the corona disperses in most of what you see, just as your light would if you were to take long distance beam shots. There are some closer Maxabeam beam shots I've come across that clearly reveal its corona.

Also, the deeper the reflector (shorter FL in relation to aperture), the more concentrated the center beam, as well as larger yet dimmer corona, because there's more variance in the source to reflection distance from aperture to vertex. This is not necessarily a good thing for an intense beam. While there may be slightly more candlepower in the beam center, there's a point reached at which the beam center becomes small enough to nullify the candlepower benefit.

Consider two different configurations of the same light source; one which produces 90 MCP within a small center beam, and another that produces just 80 MCP, but within a center beam of four times the diameter. Can you guess which will produce a more intense beam in the sky? Not the one with a tad more CP. Candlepower isn't everything. That's why I devised a little trick for myself to analyze this. In the models I posted, you'll see a field I set up called Beam Power. This is not something that will go over well with the community, just my own little concept I use to compare beam intensity beyond just candlepower. Without getting into too much detail, I can assure you that the .75" FL is very well optimized for that aperture diameter and light source. You could have gone with a .6" FL and you would have gained a tad in candlepower but lost a lot in what I designate for myself as beam power, due to the significant loss in beam center diameter.

This is the reason that, even if the MaxaBlaster might have more CP than your light, your light will surely produce a more intense beam in the sky, because it contains significantly more light within the beam center relative to the difference in candlepower.

The term corona makes me want to have a drink!


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## ma_sha1

get-lit said:


> Have you seen the Maxabeam first hand? It is a parabolic through and through and it does have a corona.



LOL, I've had two Maxabeam, they guided me up to my Moon Blaster, at which point, they were no longer useful as reference, both were sold. See this image, top is MaxaBeam, bottom is my Led torpedo (Aspheric SST-50 over driven to 9Amp/4" AR lens).
MaxaBeam can be focused to zero corona. 









get-lit said:


> In the models I posted, you'll see a field I set up called Beam Power. This is not something that will go over well with the community, just my own little concept I use to compare beam intensity beyond just candlepower.


 
I agree, I've calling it "Lumen in the beam" in various threads & no one seems to care. Not just make beam brighter, it actually enhance the remote target resolution quite dramatically as seen this my short arc shoot out thread, the 5MCP Mega Blaster Illuminated the target much "brighter" than the Maxa Beam of similar CPs due to 4x lumen in the beam. 
http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?330370-Superlights-shoot-out-The-ShortArcs


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## get-lit

The Maxabeam might have a slightly deeper reflector in relation to its aperture, this would actually enlarge the corona but make it much dimmer at the same time, making it less noticeable. But I don't think this is the case. I think the Masterblaster is about on par with the Swan Blaster with relative reflector depth. There is a slight corona in that Maxabeam photo, but the camera doesn't have enough dynamic range to not blow out the center beam and show the corona at the same time. Notice in your Swan Blaster beam shots, the center beam is blown out to show the corona. If you adjust shutter speed for the center beam, the corona will fade out.

Another thing to consider is that since your dealing with so much more light with the Swan Blaster, these things become more evident.

At the moment I can't find the most revealing photos of the Maxabeam corona, but look very closely at these:

Here the camera is adjusted for the center beam and the corona is a tad dimmer, but it's there...





Here the camera is adjusted for the corona and the center beam is blown out...






"Lumen in the beam" is exactly how to describe the beam power aspect I'm talking about. You get it! It's more significant than candlepower. It was actually very easy to implement into the beam calculator. When I get a chance, I'll model the MaxaBlaster and compare Beam Power or "Lumen in the Beam" calculation and see how it correlates to the modeled beam shots. The beam centers will have similar intensities, but the Swan Blaster will have much more of it.


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## Walterk

@Get-Lit; Thx for the explanation on measuring cp.


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## ma_sha1

get-lit said:


> I'll model the MaxaBlaster and compare Beam Power or "Lumen in the Beam" calculation and see how it correlates to the modeled beam shots. The beam centers will have similar intensities, but the Swan Blaster will have much more of it.



It's a Pity that no one ever defined a perfect measurement unit for target illumination "brightness" ranking that correlate with human eyes.

I remember seeing a post that suggest using CP times lumen to represent "throw", should we call that CPL?
that may be a better measurement than CP in representing throw, in terms of effective remote target illumination brightness, which is what people have in mind when they say " throw"

otherwise laser will beat tank searchlight but it doesn't illuminate anything for useful visualization


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## mvyrmnd

Candlepower x Lumens x Area of target illuminated by hotspot.

That'll factor in how big the hotspot is too.

Then, you might get a lot of distance from an aspheric XR-E, but a tiny hotspot, vs the same distance from a HID with a huge hotspot, which is worth more points.

I suggest we call this new, magical unit of measurement "Square mvyrmnds" 

You can use SQM for short.


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## ma_sha1

It is a good point to taking illuminated area into consideration, the very reason that MegaBlaster spanked MaxaBeam to the Military fort is larger illuminated area.

However, one has to take consideration on the difficulty of measuring size of illuminated area. Lux & lumen are already being measured, combine them is just a matter of mind set change.

In addition, aspehric lights won't have enough lumen, so it'll not be over represented in CPL number.
Also, super floody lights won't have enough cp, it won't be over represented either.

CPL elimates the flaw of lumen -favor floody lights & the flaw of CP- favor laser like beam 

CPL, Candle Power Lumen, Rhymes with CPF, indicating the idea originated from CPF which is nice. 
Alternative names could be
LCP - Lumen Candle Power 
TIT - Target Illumination Throw (No porn intended )


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## mvyrmnd

Well, if you're not going to use SQM, then I suppose TIT will have to do!

In all seriousness though, I like the idea of CPL, after reading through this thread and only understanding 10% of it.


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## ma_sha1

That's get-lit for you, he is theories & formulations are way over my head too 

I have a thread with a collection of Lux numbers, I am going to calculate some CPL numbers & start a thread about it...


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## get-lit

mvyrmnd said:


> Candlepower x Lumens x Area of target illuminated by hotspot.



"Candlepower x Lumens in the hotspot" and "Candlepower x Area of the hotspot" are equivalent measures. Either will work, but where it gets tricky is with beams having an evenly faded beam center. Who's to say how big the hot spot is. It would become a subjective measure.

Also, if one beam has an intense corona and another beam of similar hot spot doesn't have the corona, the beam with the corona will have a slight edge in beam power, but this method of calculating would not account for it.

It was easy to solve these issues with beam modeling, but it would be nice if there were some sort of standard that solves these for anyone with a lux meter and a measuring tape. This would do the trick...

1. Take equal-distant lux readings from the beam center toward the outer edge of the beam, where the distance between readings is associated with a determined fraction of a degree of beam spread from the center.

2. Convert those lux readings to candlepower, using the method of your choice.

3. Multiply each reading's candlepower times that reading's beam area.

4. Sum the values.


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## get-lit

I just might have a way to accurately measure full candlepower of all lights, including short and medium FL parabolic lights, measured from just a close distance.

ma-sha, would you mind taking some more measurements of the swan blaster beam? If so, here's what is needed...

1. Choose a distance to take your measurements. 200' just as before would be great.

2. With the beam off, take a lux measurement of the ambient light, with the lux meter pointed at the searchlight from the measurement position.

3. Turn on the light, and use a tape measure and a lux meter to find the exact center of the beam and mark it.

4. Place the tape measure 0" mark at the exact center of the beam, extending outward to the side, well past the outside of the beam.

5. Center the lux meter sensor on the exact center of the beam.

6. Begin recording lux readings, at one inch spacing, from the zero mark, all the way until the exact inch at which the lux readings equal the lux reading of the ambient light.

Post the lux measurements, the ambient lux, and the distance measured and I'll see if this works.


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## get-lit

Also ma_sha, regarding your beam shot of the Maxabeam having very little corona, it appears the beam shot was taken at close distance because it's an indoor photo. In that case, the corona would not be evident, because the corona needs some distance to diverge from the center beam.

For comparison, I've modeled your Swan Blaster at 25' (guessing at indoor distance) and you'll see that at that distance the corona is not entirely different than your indoor Maxabeam photo.







Again the camera was also balanced for the beam center in that shot, and neither the camera nor a monitor can display that much dynamic range, so the corona will be even less evident. If the camera was balanced for the corona, the beam center would be washed out. The very limited dynamic range is really an issue with beam shots, you can't display the beam entirely as you see it. For the beam modeling program, I had to apply a human brightness perception algorithm to contain the contrast within the limited dynamic range, and even with that there's some subjective variance in how it could be displayed.

Looking forward to possibly getting measurements from my last post.


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## ma_sha1

Very good point!

I can't run the swan blaster indoors at 25ft, it'll burn my eyes out, LOL


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## ma_sha1

Father's day beam shots:
Same 1" manual exposure, ISO 200, F3.3

Tree at 500 feet





Tree at 800 feet:


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## LightSward

Tree at 800 feet:



[/QUOTE]

Nice work!


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## ma_sha1

Thanks!

You won't believe the amount of bugs flying around the light, they seems to be attracted by the heat, as they fly around the light & some of them got sucked in by the fans & got killed by the beam, end up laying dead on my reflector .


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## BudK

That has to be one of the coolest builds I have seen . The concept of having a lamp that throws so much light on an object 1000 ft away that it has to be turned off to discern what you are shining it on . 

I like it . I like it a lot .


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## get-lit

It's the neighborhood bug zapper. Take collection from the neighbors. Should use an air filter.


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## ma_sha1

BudK said:


> That has to be one of the coolest builds I have seen . The concept of having a lamp that throws so much light on an object 1000 ft away that it has to be turned off to discern what you are shining it on .
> 
> I like it . I like it a lot .



Thanks!




get-lit said:


> It's the neighborhood bug zapper. Take collection from the neighbors. Should use an air filter.



Great idea. I am going to look into this.


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## Parker VH

Very cool!!!!!! Great work!!


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## get-lit

A quick and dirty (or clean) solution for an air filter is a PC fan filter. There's tons out there, *here's a decent brand you could try*.


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## ma_sha1

Thanks for the info.!

I need to sell one of my short arcs to keep the hobby going, last chance for a family photo:
The Moon Blaster is up for sale here:
http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb...-FS-The-Moon-Blaster-Short-Arc-16-million-cps







Edit, The Moon Blaster was SOLD. Now I can focus on the Swan Blaster...


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## The_Driver

Any updates on this extremely interesting project?
How about somre beamshots (the farther away the target the better). Coud-bounce shots like the ones from Ra would also be very, very cool


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## ma_sha1

Some times people say "No News is Good News", well, not in this case, the battery has died. 
I took apart the 20AH battery pack, looks like it's 4x 3.2V 20AH square lifepo4 packs wired in series & one of them died. 

Now I have 3 working power packs. 3.2A each, capable to provide 30A discharge but only adds up to less than 9V under load. 
I will need to seek a new battery source. Ideally, I'd like to re-build the portable power to have the 300V DC converter box hide inside instead of piggy-back on the outside, it scares me. 

I'll take some pictures...


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## ma_sha1

This is the battery that died, I think I am pulling 30-35A, this is rated 40A constant draw.
As mfg. tends to over estimate, I think it might be too much for longevity. 

There is another version of same size, but rated 25AH, 50A constant draw but cost 2x of this. 
I may have to bite the bullet & upgrade to the 50A version if I can't find a cheaper source.









*This is the battery that I am planning to upgrade to:*


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## BVH

Ma, I had an 8S/20AH LiFeP04 built for me using the same type of cells you describe but they are 3C constant rated so 60 Amps flow. I thought it would provide me very near 28V for some of my lights. Unfortunately I didn't realize that they normally settle to below this and remain very flat during discharge. It also has 40 Amp BMS within the case. I don't even have one discharge cycle on it after getting it about 4 months ago. I paid $600 to get it here. I'd sell it shipped to you for $375.00. This way, you could elim the BMS and change it to 4S/2P for a 4S/40AH with 120 Amp constant flow capability. Or just use it as two separate 4S/60 batteries. I hate seeing it go unused.


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## ma_sha1

Thanks BVH, I am not sure I understand what you have. Does it fit into the confinement of 7"x3"x6.5"? Do you have a picture of what you have?

Do you have a picture of the individual pack? Is it the same size as mine, roughly 2.8x6x1.7" size per pack? Both ratted 20AH, I wonder why yours rated 60A but mine rated 40A? I may be interested in 4S if its same sized pack as mine. What's the brand of your battery? A Link to where you got it?

8S Lifepo4 will only give you 22-24V under load, you probably need 10S to get it up to 28V under load.
Since yours & mine are both 20AH packs, I wonder why yours rated 60A while mine rated 40A, I wonder how much we could trust theses ratings.
I would not trust that they could deliver constant 60A long term w/o damage. In my case, ideally, I'll be able to find 25-30AH packs at the same size to connect 4S & run it at 35 Amp constant draw.

Alternatively, If you are planning to run 28V at 30A or less, I could sell you the 2-3 loose packs I have left & allow you to build it up to 28V under load w/o letting what you have go to waste. I'll only ask for $30/pack +shipping. 


I'll take a picture of how my packs look like tonight.


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## BVH

This is for a higher Volt pack. I had him make the 8S custom for me. Under the specs it says 40 Amp continuous discharge (BMS Limited). He told me if I used them without a BMS, they would provide 60 Amps.

http://em3ev.com/store/index.php?route=product/product&path=35&product_id=105

Cell data:

https://skydrive.live.com/?cid=92088474ccb8cd05&id=92088474CCB8CD05!1730&authkey=!AJSyZwC_h7piGtY

I will take some measurements and post back.


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## ma_sha1

Thanks for the link, it says it uses: "High Energy Density A123 AMP20, 3.3V, 20Ah Nanophosphate Lithium Ion Prismatic Pouch Cell".

A123 Prismatic Pouch is big. Your link doesn't contain the pdf datasheet, but I found it here
http://www.endrich.com.tw/html/ezcatfiles/i-web17/img/img/25755/A123_AMP20.pdf

It lists the cells as 6.3" x 9" in size, looks like too big for my use. But thanks for the effort thou.


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## BVH

OK, darn it! Hate to see it sitting unused but it didn't give me what I wanted. Builder was going to fit an 80 Amp BMS so they must be good for 4C or better. 5C rings a bell but I cannot find any info on it. I emailed him just so I will know.


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## ma_sha1

Here are some more info. on 20AH battery of this shape (7x6.5x3"). 
Tenergy is more reputable, and they stated 30A discharge. That leads me to believe the 20AH/40A rating on my battery is 
overstated, which would explain why it didn't last under 30-35A discharge usage.







At the moment, this 24AH battery may be promising, slightly different shape, but close enough.
But it doesn't state max constant discharge rate, I don;t know how to translate CCA to that. 
However, 24AH sounds better than 20AH, but I don;t know how much I can trust the claims:


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## BVH

Just as a final answer to the "C-rating" of the cells I have, they are good for 10C by themselves.


----------



## ma_sha1

I've also been digging deeper on the Phantom Motorcycle batteries. Turns out that 
they sell three capacities for the size shell of 6.5x6.1x3.4 inches. 24AH 350 CCA, 27AH 405 CCA & 36AH version 540 CCA. 
They are manufactured by Shorai: http://www.shoraipower.com/specs.html

Because they were marketed for motorcycle use & list only the CCA, I called to talk to Shorai, I was transferred to a specialist who appears to be very knowledgeable. He said the battery can support constant draw of approximately 25% of CCA ratings. 24AH 88Amp, 27AH 102Amp, 36AH version 135Amp. Which is a little over 3C (Not the cells, but the whole battery).

He said any of them should have no problem support my 35Amp draw application.Further more, he said if I draw the pack down *below 12.8V* (which I did) without BMS charging, it may cause the cell to drift apart, which is likely the reason why one of my 20AH cells got killed, not likely due to the amp draw.

I think I'll probably go with the 27AH version, with BMS charger *Sho-BMS01* to ensure longevity.


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## BVH

Is there much of a diff in price for the 27 vrs the 36? As long as you're spending the funds, why not get the extra capacity which should increase or at least insure maximum charging cycles.


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## ma_sha1

Both weight & price go up quite a bit going to 36AH, I was thinking 24AH should be enough, 
but still worried that mfg, might over state capacity, the 27AH price isn't too much more than the 24AH.

One thing I still need to double check is the thickness of the battery will fit, it's 0.4" thicker than the broken one, 
good 10mm thicker, hope there's room in the case to fit that extra thickness.


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## ma_sha1

Back to work on the lights!

This battery pack is shared by Mega Blaster 110V AC & Swan Blaster 300V DC. I decide to separate the two & dedicate the re-build to Swan Blaster Use & have the Maga Blaster run om wall outlet for a while. 

Mega blaster also need 12V for the fan but doesn't draw much power, so I decided to mount a 3x123 set-up to the side to power the fun.





Give it a test drive 





With the Mega Blaster out the way, I can focus on re-building the portable power for 300V DC use.

Here is the portable power & its 20AH battery all taken apart::
To make room for the 12V DC to 300V DC inverter, the 120V AC inverter needs to go.





Now, pretty much everything related to the 120V AC set-up are taken out, it its place, the 300V DC inverter instead. The problem is, there is only room for exactly 3" Thick battery, the new battery I want to get is 3.4Inch, a good 10mm thicker.





Luckily, there are ridges on the left side of the shell, I shave them down.
This way, I should be able to fit the new thicker battery in....





The only thing left to do is to get the new battery & put it in

Gone shopping....


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## ma_sha1

Found the best deal for the 27AH version at twocycleguys.com

Battery:
*Shorai Inc LFX27L3-BS12*, ordered from Amazon.com

*Shaorai BMS Charger* *Sho-BMS01*, ordered from AtBatt.com


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## jkpq45

Interested and subscribed. Any updates?


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## ma_sha1

Not yet, I got the battery & BMS balance charger in but my kids turned me into playing Dungeon Defenders on Xbox, now I am obsessed, haven't work on my light for about 2 month. 

I spent every minute of my spare time playing that game. My characters are almost good enough to do auto play, strap on some rubber bands on the controller trigger to go through insane+ levels unattended (Over & Over again to unlock good weapons) while I can free up some time to get this finished


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## Davekan

I have been using Shorai LFX14 in my cbr 600 for 2 years now and it has given me no problems. The thing is the way they rate their batteries capacity is to equivalent lead acid cold cranking. The
actual capacity of my size 14 is only 60 watt hours. So it is a 5 amp/hour. I do like the battery, but as I said you may want to run another in parallel if you need more run time.

Dave


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## ma_sha1

Final Update, 
Or I suspect that this is it, finally, I am done . I was worried that I'd never finish this project before I quit the hobby.

Here is an internal picture of the new battery, seen to the right. The 12V to 300V DC Inverter to the left. lots of wires, but it's actually simplified over prior as I got rid of the 12V to 120V box, no need for 120V AC for the Swan Blaster alone, & I needed the extra room due to increased battery size to 27AH.







Test drive, to just to see if I miss wired anything, No, it fired right up, evrtything looks good


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## LightSward

Great lights! Do some beam shots together.


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## Optiforms_Todd

Thanks for the kind words, we try very hard to treat all projects with the same regard and in a reasonable time. As you mentioned we are happy to make custom reflectors and we do stock many different sizes as well. Appreciate the recommendation ma_sha1


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