# Red LED Flashlights?



## BARBARIAN-X (May 29, 2011)

I have been looking for a CMG Infinity or Infinity Ultra with a red LED without much luck so I was wondering what alternatives are out there? I sometimes conduct cell searches while the occupants are sleeping so I'm not looking for a red LED hunting light. I need a light that won't mess up my night vision but allows me to go about my business. Thanks!


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## carrot (May 29, 2011)

Peak LED Solutions will be happy to make a custom one for you to your specs for about $50.


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## BARBARIAN-X (May 29, 2011)

Are there no other options besides going custom?


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## angelofwar (May 29, 2011)

You can usually find the AA-Mini-Mag filter kits at most sporting stores that sell flashlight. The red filter coupled with a AA-Mini-Mag LED will work. There are several other options, but...what's your spending limit???


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## B0wz3r (May 29, 2011)

It might be too small for your use, but check out a Photon Freedom Micro; they make a 'covert' model that focuses the beam more and prevents side spill, and prevents the light from being seen from the side even when the beam is not being pointed that way.

Night vision issues have been discussed at length here, but the simple fact is that red is actually a lousy color for preserving night vision. There is a 'night vision green' photon freedom that is very close to the wavelength that the rod receptors in the retina are most sensitive to, and I find that it gives me much better night vision than a red light does, specifically it preserves my depth perception and focus whereas a red light does not. 

Regardless of your color preference for such use, the simple fact is that ANY color of light will ruin your night vision if it's bright enough. That said, a plain white light can be used for what you're intending, as long as it is dim enough. You might want to look into an HDS because they can go down to very, very low levels, and are also tough as nails, so if you're a guard or cop, that durability would be useful.


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## angelofwar (May 29, 2011)

Oh yeah, check out an Inova Micro-light...avail. in red, green, and blue...easy to change the batteries too!


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## Lynx_Arc (May 29, 2011)

I used to think red LEDs and night vision were cool, but unless you are stargazing or trying to hide from animals like others have said a properly dimmed white LED light ends up being a lot more useful than trying to deal with only one color of light. Although you can read with red or green light it is a lot harder on the eyes than a suitable white output. I have navigated around the house plenty of times with a single white 5mm LED as long as I don't hit a close white wall and bounce the light back into my eyes my night vision is not affected enough to worry with. For lighting close to you the white LED needs to be a fraction of the brightness normal single 5mm LED lights put out. A fauxton with a white LED running a partially depleted single 2032 puts out close the the right amount of light for that purpose I think.


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## BARBARIAN-X (May 29, 2011)

I was going to give Peak LED Solutions a try but with all the reports of difficulty contacting them I have no desire to add to my daily frustration.

It's not just about preserving night vision, we often scan the lights over people's bodies during counts to make sure they are breathing and white lights, even dim ones, seem to wake people quite often where as I've yet to see this happen with a red light. I don't know about other colors, I only have experience with white and red. Below is the Gerber model that was discontinued and the CGM model. 


Gerber Infinity Ultra M Red LED






CMG Infinity


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## giraffe (May 29, 2011)

im new to the world of flashlights (high powered flashlights) but i do believe that there is a Led Lenser p2 tactical light I believe it is only 33 lumens but it has several coloured LED's including of course a red LED but i like it because it is not too overpriced. i had the problem of not being able to use a white light on my cadet camp but i found a pink mount franklin bottle cap, put it over the top of my torch and no-one could tell the difference.


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## choombak (May 30, 2011)

BARBARIAN-X said:


> Are there no other options besides going custom?


 
Actually, the red color is a standard option on the Matterhorn. So its not really "custom" in a true sense, but one combination of the several that Peak offers as a convenience. The only thing you may want to *call* Peak first is the availability of the red led. If they confirm, then it should be built and sent your way in a reasonable amount of time. I absolutely love my single red LED matterhorn - it has enough brightness to go about in dark, without messing up nightvision. Has been on my bedstand since I got it about an year back.


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## Chongker (May 30, 2011)

I'd say the Proton Pro would be a nice choice. It's got a main white XRE that can ramp reasonably low, but also a secondary 3mm red led which you can activate on low from being switched off, and it is low enough that I'm sure it wouldn't wake anyone. If it isn't bright enough then just press and hold and it'll ramp up in red (you can avoid white completely if need be)


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## LightWalker (May 30, 2011)

Eagletac have some red LED drop-in modules for some of their lights.

http://www.eagletac.com/accessories/t20c2dropin.html


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## nfetterly (May 30, 2011)

Nailbender has red LEDs (custom B/S/T) and can make a P60 drop-in (fits surefire & others)

http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb...90-P60-modules-(part-7)&p=3446075#post3446075

Looks like they are $40 and you have the choice of 1 or 3 levels.


The Surefire L1 can come with a red LED.


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## ZMZ67 (May 30, 2011)

There are a couple 9V lights that fit your needs,http://www.rigelsys.com/ and http://9voltlight.com/ have no experience with the lights from Rigel Systems but I have a few white Pak-Lites that are used often.The Pak-Lites work great with the old smoke detector batteries I replace each year.Both companies offer RED only versions of thier lights.


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## DRoc (May 30, 2011)

I recently purchased a Solarforce P60 red led drop in which I will take with me on any future field exercises where we're tactical...but that will be few and far between as I am on an Air Force base right now..


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## StainlessSteel (May 30, 2011)

if you want a less bright, long running, floodlight, that will drain the last drop out of 123a batteries, ONE at a time. Inova X5 red. I would not part with mine for less than 200 bucks. I use it ALL the time.

If you want bright, Olight M20 Crimson, http://www.batteryjunction.com/olight-m20-crimson.html


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## MatajumotorS (May 30, 2011)

I have this one - http://www.dealextreme.com/p/ultraf...-k2-red-led-flashlight-1-18650-2-cr123a-20333 Nice and bright


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## ZMZ67 (May 30, 2011)

StainlessSteel said:


> if you want a less bright, long running, floodlight, that will drain the last drop out of 123a batteries, ONE at a time. Inova X5 red. I would not part with mine for less than 200 bucks. I use it ALL the time.
> 
> If you want bright, Olight M20 Crimson, http://www.batteryjunction.com/olight-m20-crimson.html


 
X5 RED is a great light but I think it may be too bright for the OP's needs.I several X5 REDs and no intentions of ever getting rid of mine either!


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## angelofwar (May 30, 2011)

Yeah, the X5 is too bright on a fresh cell...but put your half dead cell in there, and it's just right! There's one for sell in the MP right now.


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## BARBARIAN-X (May 30, 2011)

choombak said:


> Actually, the red color is a standard option on the Matterhorn. So its not really "custom" in a true sense, but one combination of the several that Peak offers as a convenience. The only thing you may want to *call* Peak first is the availability of the red led. If they confirm, then it should be built and sent your way in a reasonable amount of time. I absolutely love my single red LED matterhorn - it has enough brightness to go about in dark, without messing up nightvision. Has been on my bedstand since I got it about an year back.


 
I'll check that out!


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## flashy bazook (May 30, 2011)

Astronomy professionals use red light during observation nights. Since these folks should know about light sources (after all, they have to deal with light whose origin can be _parsec-eons_ away from earth --  sorry about the inside joke!) I would go with them as to the ability of red to preserve night vision. 

One small correction, the Surefire L1 is no longer offered with a red LED. That means to get one you'd have to convince those of us who have one of the earlier, red LED versions, to part with it...not very likely!

On what other solutions you can use, remember the red color filters. You can use them either with 1" standard bezels (Surefires or clones) or the larger size. Of course, you lose a lot of energy, but so what. You can still achieve your objectives. And you can also have an excellent flashlight that can be used normally (non-red) just by removing the filter, if the 1" version, or even just opening the spring-loaded cover, for the larger version.


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## cratz2 (May 30, 2011)

I also have a couple of the Nite Ize modules for the Minimag... just like the 3 LED white ones, but they are red. I have one that is 100% stock and one that I slightly sanded the LEDs to get a smoother beam. Not sure if they still make them, but last time I was at my local Fry's, they had one or two.

I used to have an Inova X5 red/black that I used to drain my mostly depleted CR123 cells but a friend 'just had to have it' so I sold it to him. Pretty neat light, built like a tank. Every great once in a while, you'll see them go for decent $$$ on eBay or Amazon, but not usually. I think there's one for sale in the Marketplace for about $65.


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## Mike 208 (May 30, 2011)

Surefire also made the KL1 and KL3 bezels with a red LED (as well as green, blue and white). However, these may be harder to find than a red L1.


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## B0wz3r (May 31, 2011)

flashy bazook said:


> Astronomy professionals use red light during observation nights. Since these folks should know about light sources (after all, they have to deal with light whose origin can be _parsec-eons_ away from earth --  sorry about the inside joke!) I would go with them as to the ability of red to preserve night vision.


 
Actually, my experience with astronomy/astronomers is that their choice of lights is based as much on tradition and superstition as it is on science. The reason red is generally used is because it is at a wavelength that doesn't cause much of a response in any of the receptors in the retina, cones or rods. Thus, when you turn it off, none of your receptors really has been affected by it. 

However, one of the side effects of this is that the magnocellular retinal ganglion cell system in the retina and early stages of the visual system is not engaged; this is the system that is responsible for detecting edges of objects, allows motion detection, and is the basis of depth perception. When using a red light, people who must wear glasses to read tend to focus to infinity, regardless of where they are looking. This means it is difficult to read small print and the like, unless you have 20/20 to begin with (which most people don't). 

The use of the 'night vision' green is that it's at a wavelength that stimulates the rods very strongly, and at low levels the medium wavelength cones are very slightly stimulated. This means that it engages the magnocellular system, but also the parvocellular system, which is responsible for our perception of fine detail, and prevents the eye from focusing to infinity because it's activated. It's much easier to see fine detail and read small text when using one of the NV green (turquoise actually) lights.

In short, if all you're trying to do is preserve night vision, a deep red works fine. If you are actually trying to do any kind of visual task that requires depth perception and detail acuity while using such a light, then the NVG wavelength lights are the better solution.


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## sassaquin (May 31, 2011)

Somebody has a bunch of old stock Surefires on ebay tonight. There are brand new in box RED, green and blue Surefire L1s for reasonable prices. I would pick one up myself except I have an Inova X5 red led (USA made) that lives on my nightstand. It is one of the best and most used light that I own.


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## Pacecar (May 31, 2011)

B0wz3r,
Thank you for this great explanation.


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## Maxbelg (May 31, 2011)

Don't forget the A2 and A2L. They combine a low floody color (in this case red) with a decent throwy white. Both can be had for reasonable prices these days on CPF MarketPlace.


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## Yobresal (May 31, 2011)

Sorry, I know this is not what you're looking for but I am just to proud of this custom build not to show it off every time a red flashlight is mentioned. PT-54 at 650 lumens.


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## Fenris (May 31, 2011)

+1 on the proton pro


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## Mikellen (May 31, 2011)

angelofwar said:


> Yeah, the X5 is too bright on a fresh cell...but put your half dead cell in there, and it's just right! There's one for sell in the MP right now.



+1! My Inova X5 with red leds is right next to my bed and it is my most used and practical light I own. I use it with a partially depleted CR123A battery and it has just the right illumination to get around at night. The red doesn't "wake up" my eyes and it is so much easier getting back to sleep when using a red light rather than white no matter how dim the white light is. I like the Inova X5 so much I have a couple of spares just in case something happens to the one on my nightstand. I think the one listed in the MarketPlace right now is a great opportunity to purchase one if these hard to find lights.
I also think the Inova X5 with red leds is one of those lights that you wouldn't regret buying.


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## B0wz3r (Jun 1, 2011)

Pacecar said:


> B0wz3r,
> Thank you for this great explanation.


 
My pleasure.

I don't usually play this card in online forums (mostly because it usually elicits derision and insults), but I earned my PhD in perceptual psychology in 2005, and have been teaching sensory perception, cognitive psychology, and physiological psychology (among others) for the last five years in the University of California system, and for the last year in the Cal State system.

I'm happy to pass on any info that may be useful and/or of help.


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## BARBARIAN-X (Jun 1, 2011)

B0wz3r said:


> Actually, my experience with astronomy/astronomers is that their choice of lights is based as much on tradition and superstition as it is on science. The reason red is generally used is because it is at a wavelength that doesn't cause much of a response in any of the receptors in the retina, cones or rods. Thus, when you turn it off, none of your receptors really has been affected by it.
> 
> However, one of the side effects of this is that the magnocellular retinal ganglion cell system in the retina and early stages of the visual system is not engaged; this is the system that is responsible for detecting edges of objects, allows motion detection, and is the basis of depth perception. When using a red light, people who must wear glasses to read tend to focus to infinity, regardless of where they are looking. This means it is difficult to read small print and the like, unless you have 20/20 to begin with (which most people don't).
> 
> ...


 
I'm assuming you're talking about what you see with the light but I'm more concerned with what I see when the light goes out. It's been a few years since I had my eyes checked but at that time I had 20/15 in my left eye and 20/10 in my right if it makes a difference. Either way I don't require glasses for anything. Correct me if I'm wrong but I'm guessing there would be no difference between red and NVG wavelength lights if I get jumped in the dark while using the light but now have to rely on my night vision...or would there?


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## BARBARIAN-X (Jun 1, 2011)

Fenris said:


> +1 on the proton pro


 
I don't no why I missed that earlier. I ended up looking at the micro but an exposed LED defeats the stealth element. Proton Pro is a great all in one light for my purpose so I will definitely get one.
I think I should be good for now on the red led lights. I'm going to add a Proton Pro and one member sold me his CMG Infinity and another is sell me his red LED Matterhorn so I'm all set. I should have mentioned that I was partial to AA or AAA because CR123's have to be ordered online as we have no source locally. Thanks for all your help guys, much appreciated! B0wz3r I'm still interested in your answer to my question. Thanks! *http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/member.php?84812-B0wz3r*


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## B0wz3r (Jun 1, 2011)

BARBARIAN-X said:


> I'm assuming you're talking about what you see with the light but I'm more concerned with what I see when the light goes out. It's been a few years since I had my eyes checked but at that time I had 20/15 in my left eye and 20/10 in my right if it makes a difference. Either way I don't require glasses for anything. Correct me if I'm wrong but I'm guessing there would be no difference between red and NVG wavelength lights if I get jumped in the dark while using the light but now have to rely on my night vision...or would there?


 
Yes, the NVG lights are supposed to be best for when you actually need to use the light to see and perform various tasks. For me it makes a world of difference; my wife is a backyard astronomer and has a very nice telescope capable of seeing objects all the way down to about magnitude 12, galaxies and nebulae. When I'm out with her and I need to read something in particular, the NVG lights work far, far better for me. With the plain red light, after a few minutes, even with my glasses on, I can't read jack... because my eyes have just gone slack so to speak... they've focused to infinity and I can't read anything closer than an arm's length with my glasses on. It either has to be in very large type and/or farther away than about 3 ft. 

My understanding of it is that once you go from light to no-light, the NVG should leave you in a better situation. That's because you should have better depth and acuity perception afterward compared to a red light. Your sensitivity might drop a bit, because where you were getting some usable light before, it will now be lost of course. If you were engaged with an attacker in that situation though, I think that after a while you'd learn to rely on your hearing as much, if not more so, than your sight. (Years ago, in college, I had a karate instructor who made us spar with one eye covered, or even blindfolded some times...)

Everyone's different of course, so your mileage may vary. Getting back to my original recommendation, the Photon lights are pretty inexpensive so you could get one of each and try both, and see how you like them. The red ones use a regular 2032 coin cell, and the NVG ones use 2x2016's; however, you can swap them out for 1x2032 and it will lower the overall brightness of the light, and give you more run time as a result. I do this with my NVG photon for astronomy with my wife, and it works very well for that. Most of the other members of our local astronomy club still haven't gotten used to it, and sometimes complain about it, but it just works better for me, so I stick to my guns on it, and try to educate them about how dark adaptation / night vision really works. If Wikipedia doesn't have something on scotopic vision, let me know and I'll post something about it. 

Maybe we should ask one of the mods to create a thread about this topic, and sticky it so it will always be there for people to see. I'll be happy to contribute what I can to it.


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## BARBARIAN-X (Jun 1, 2011)

Ok I just ordered a Proton Pro UltravioletUV and a regular Proton Pro so I'll see which I like best. Thanks!


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## B0wz3r (Jun 2, 2011)

BARBARIAN-X said:


> Ok I just ordered a Proton Pro UltravioletUV and a regular Proton Pro so I'll see which I like best. Thanks!


 
Wait, the Proton Pro UV isn't an NVG light... it'll be more like a blacklight really... But, that might be cool too!  I've always wanted a UV flashlight just that reason... It might actually work well as a night vision light. I don't remember if it's LRI or Inova that makes them, but they do make a UV coin cell light they call the 'scorpion killer' or something like that... cause spiders and scorpions really light up under UV so it's easy to find 'em and squish 'em. Fortunately, where I live, there's no scorpions, but we do tarantulas! 

Sorry... I'm rambling... it's late and I just spent the last three hours chopping firewood, and now Capt. Morgan and Coke are having their way with me! LOL...


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## moshow9 (Jun 12, 2011)

ZebraLight will be releasing the H51r Red LED and H31R Red LED headlamps hopefully later this month (up on their homepage)


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## recDNA (Jun 12, 2011)

I just wonder if the NVG wouldn't also be more likely to wake a sleeping man than red by stimulating the rods right through the eyelids?


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## flashmenow (Jun 12, 2011)

Interesting topic ! I just picked up a 5X in red. I located one of the silver body (TI) RED LED lights. Wonderful for preserving night vision, runs on the 1 CR123 and is a battery vampire . Also I picked up a black body 5X that can still be purchased new. It seems the 1 cell runs were before Inova was bought out by Nite Ize in 2010. After 2010 they were produced in a 2 CR123 configuration with a shorter plunger. The RED is 2X as bright as the one cell run. 


I started a thread at another forum I frequent that contains all of this information I dug up along the way with some great images. I still have to update the thread with additional images of the 2 CR123 Black body version. 

Here :

http://www.jerzeedevil.com/forums/showthread.php?98962-Inova-5X-RED-LEDs


A teaser for you :devil:


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## JA(me)S (Jun 12, 2011)

A little more info on the ZebraLight H51r you might find interesting:


 LED: Cree XP-E Red (Dominant Wavelength 620-630nm)
Light Output
High: H1 *100* Lm (0.9 hrs) or H2 *60* Lm (2.4 hrs) / *80* Lm (1.7 hrs) / 4Hz Strobe
Medium: M1 *20* Lm (9 hrs) or M2 *10*Lm (30 hrs)
Low: L1 *2 *Lm (3 days) or L2 *0.2* Lm (16 days)
 Light output are out the front (OTF) values. Runtime tests are done using Sanyo 2000mAh Eneloop AA batteries.
 
As mentioned by moshow9, shipping later this month.

- Jas.


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## Mdinana (Jun 13, 2011)

Obviously the Gerber - love it, btw, use it in the morning when I'm up before my wife.
Inova X5 in red, I think they might have another in red
SF with a filter or red LED, or the Aviator series (I got mine on the CPF MP)
Streamlight has their aviator-esque version w/ red LEDs as well.
I think cabela's or Bass Pro shop also have in-house aviator-esque lights
Pentagon MOLLE light w/ filter
Proton Photon or Proton Pro
Zebralight 501r or 51r (I think that's the newest one)
Gerber Recon
Fenix has filters for their lights.
Petzl has a few red filter headlights.
Smith and Wesson "Galaxy" light has dual white/red
I think there are numerous brands of the "keychain" light (photons and fauxtons) that come with red LED's - I've got several attached to gear and my body armor.

I've been on a red LED kick too these last 2 weeks. Can't wait for my ZL's to ship! Wishing I'd brought all my red lights...

As an aside, Amazon has the NVG photon for $8, and the Photon Pro for $38.


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## subwoofer (Jun 13, 2011)

MatajumotorS said:


> I have this one - http://www.dealextreme.com/p/ultraf...-k2-red-led-flashlight-1-18650-2-cr123a-20333 Nice and bright


 
I also have this DX torch and the KaiDomain version http://www.kaidomain.com/ProductDetails.aspx?ProductId=9347

The DX one will run best on an 18650 and slightly dimmer on 2x16340. The KD one is 18650 only as it is direct drive.

If you want something dimmer the Skywatcher Dual beam Astronomy torch is good with variable brightness, but is much dimmer and uses 5mm LEDs


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## dcbeane (Jun 13, 2011)

flashmenow this is what I get when I click on your link:


You are not logged in. Fill in the form at the bottom of this page and try again.
You may not have sufficient privileges to access this page. Are you trying to edit someone else's post, access administrative features or some other privileged system?
If you are trying to post, the administrator may have disabled your account, or it may be awaiting activation.


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## Vox Clamatis in Deserto (Jun 13, 2011)

> The use of the 'night vision' green is that it's at a wavelength that stimulates the rods very strongly, and at low levels the medium wavelength cones are very slightly stimulated. This means that it engages the magnocellular system, but also the parvocellular system, which is responsible for our perception of fine detail, and prevents the eye from focusing to infinity because it's activated. It's much easier to see fine detail and read small text when using one of the NV green (turquoise actually) lights.


 
Them 25 cent words are way over my head but your explaination does agree with my experience. I have several 'military' lights with both red and green emitters. I do occasional backyard astronomy and visual satellite tracking. I can work, walk and find my beverage with a much dimmer green light than red light. And yes, I realize that my eyes are much more sensitive to the green light than the red light in the first place.

Red light presbyopia is often mentioned in aviation physiology courses. Night myopia causes many visual astronomy buffs to have a separate eyeglass prescription for night work.

Here's a classic web analysis of using red light to maintain night vision (it cites and has been cited by CPF in years past):

http://stlplaces.com/night_vision_red_myth/

Aircraft cockpits decades ago featured red lighting but this has largely disappeared in recent designs from what I can see. Red map lights are probably still offered as an option on airliners, things like this seem to stay in the certification regulations in some countries long after they are no longer in common use.


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## dcbeane (Jun 13, 2011)

From what a buddy in Iraq tells me, its not just that red maintanes night vision, red is also harder for the enemy to see at a distance.
I would like to compare "night vision green" to red at a distance, and see which can be seen more easily.... but I don't have any military night vision green lights.
I don't think CREE actually makes Red LEDs. They are buying those from another source and branding them CREE.
That is what I was told at a shareholder meeting in the last couple years....unless this is a new development.


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## MrBenchmark (Jun 13, 2011)

B0wz3r said:


> I don't usually play this card in online forums (mostly because it usually elicits derision and insults), but I earned my PhD in perceptual psychology in 2005, and have been teaching sensory perception, cognitive psychology, and physiological psychology (among others) for the last five years in the University of California system, and for the last year in the Cal State system.


 
Hi B0wz3r, I'm interested in your experience with astronomy, NVG lights, and how it affects your scotopic vision. There are as you well know a bunch of reasons amateur astronomers like red lights, some of them seem really outdated to me, some of them still relevant:
- less affect on scotopic vision (assuming you can actually see what you need without using so much light you blow it anyway)
- less impact on film, so when people have a shutter open, you don't risk their image as much (Oh wait - does anyone use film anymore, aren't CCD's more sensitive to red than blue?)
- everyone does knows this is best! (How can everyone be wrong!!!!!111!)
- fear of the delay in regaining full scoptopic vision. 

Lol, that sum it up pretty well?

Anyway, do you have any experience with how rapidly your scotopic vision recovers after using a dim NVG light? Have you been in a situation where you can be fully dark adapted and tried this? (Just asking - it is very difficult in many normal environments to ever be fully dark adapted - you understand I know.) I do know from firsthand experience that for my eyes anyway, it takes about 15 minutes to get decent dark adaptation, and 30-45 minutes before it's really there. People doing visual deepsky observation are sometimes pushing their vision for all it's worth, so you can understand why people are so conservative about this, particularly when it takes so long to recover. 

Anyway, just wondered if you knew more about this - some of the things I've read about it left me unconvinced that the visual tasks they tested were much like what happens at the eyepiece. (But what do I know?) I totally agree about trying to read stuff in dim red light - it is horrible.

Oh, back on topic, uh, +1 on the photon pro. Ether the red or white lights on it are just ridiculously dim. The HDS lights (not cheap) are also quite dim, although you might find them too bright when your eyes are dark adapted. (I do anyway.)


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## B0wz3r (Jun 13, 2011)

MrBenchmark said:


> Hi B0wz3r, I'm interested in your experience with astronomy, NVG lights, and how it affects your scotopic vision. There are as you well know a bunch of reasons amateur astronomers like red lights, some of them seem really outdated to me, some of them still relevant:
> - less affect on scotopic vision (assuming you can actually see what you need without using so much light you blow it anyway)
> - less impact on film, so when people have a shutter open, you don't risk their image as much (Oh wait - does anyone use film anymore, aren't CCD's more sensitive to red than blue?)
> - everyone does knows this is best! (How can everyone be wrong!!!!!111!)
> ...



Yep. As was mentioned above, for purely protecting your dark adaptation, red does work best. If you're actually trying to do anything that requires any kind of reasonable visual acuity, then the NVG works best. That's why the military uses it in their low light targeting and detection systems, instead of red.



MrBenchmark said:


> Anyway, do you have any experience with how rapidly your scotopic vision recovers after using a dim NVG light? Have you been in a situation where you can be fully dark adapted and tried this? (Just asking - it is very difficult in many normal environments to ever be fully dark adapted - you understand I know.) I do know from firsthand experience that for my eyes anyway, it takes about 15 minutes to get decent dark adaptation, and 30-45 minutes before it's really there. People doing visual deepsky observation are sometimes pushing their vision for all it's worth, so you can understand why people are so conservative about this, particularly when it takes so long to recover.



It has been a long time since I was in a situation where I was fully dark adapted, probably not since last summer, up in the Sierras camping on the Merced river. That being said, in low light conditions (close to, but not fully scotopic), it only takes me a couple or three minutes for my adaptation to come back after using my NVG light. But, I also turn it on in low and let it ramp up, rather than start it on high. I also use a lower voltage battery, a 2032 in it instead of 2x2016, so it can go lower and doesn't go nearly as high that way. 

Going from regular vision to nearly scotopic takes me about 15 minutes or so too... in those situations I find the .2 lumens on something like my Quark AA to be more than bright enough. The .6 lumen setting on my ZL SC50w+ is almost too bright sometimes in those situations. 



MrBenchmark said:


> Anyway, just wondered if you knew more about this - some of the things I've read about it left me unconvinced that the visual tasks they tested were much like what happens at the eyepiece. (But what do I know?) I totally agree about trying to read stuff in dim red light - it is horrible.
> 
> Oh, back on topic, uh, +1 on the photon pro. Ether the red or white lights on it are just ridiculously dim. The HDS lights (not cheap) are also quite dim, although you might find them too bright when your eyes are dark adapted. (I do anyway.)


 
I think your intuition about the tasks that have been tested in low light vision not being similar to actual observing conditions is correct. One of the crazy contradictions about this is that most of the people I know in our local club can see the color of different stars even when they're fully scotopically adapted. That leads me to think either that they're not fully scotopically adapted as they think, in order to be able to differentiate different colors of stars, or that they're viewing objects of sufficient magnitude to overcome the scotopic adaptation at just the point where they're seeing the star on their retinae. It would be a small enough area that the total effect wouldn't really be noticeable consciously, or the light wouldn't be intense enough to invoke Whytte's reflex (the reflex where our pupils contract suddenly on exposure to bright light).

I also agree that very dim red light is essentially useless, except for gross navigation. I'd rather have a dim NVG or white light for that purpose. I've been considering a light that will go ultra low, less than .1 lumen, but I'm still deciding how I want to proceed on this. My wife uses red lights mostly when we're observing, and the NVG photon I gave her for things like reading charts and logging observations. I use mine for pretty much everything. I'm considering getting her one of the new red ZL headlamps that are coming out soon, as she is still pretty traditional about that, and I know that she'd appreciate it, and so would other club members. I still get some negative reactions to my NVG light at club events sometimes.

For observing though, I'd say that at the eyepiece, you really do want to be as close to scotopic as possible, so red is best for when you're actively working at your scope. My wife is the master at this... she finds stuff with her 10" manual dobsonian that most other people in the club have to use a computer controlled motor drive to find. She's become known for her ability to do that. I am the helper really, fetching food and equipment and stuff like that; I'm simply too ham-handed with the scope to even keep anything centered in the eyepiece... in general though, the NVG meets my needs for both observing and working pretty well. If I was doing the finding and being the primary scope operator, I'd probably want red, but I think NVG would be fine for that too, as long as you didn't get it too bright. My next step is going to be to experiment with using both a red and an NVG light.


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## MrBenchmark (Jun 14, 2011)

B0wz3r said:


> Yep. As was mentioned above, for purely protecting your dark adaptation, red does work best. If you're actually trying to do anything that requires any kind of reasonable visual acuity, then the NVG works best. That's why the military uses it in their low light targeting and detection systems, instead of red.


 
I thought the NVG were also less affected by this - blinding your helicopter pilot who's flying by NVG is bad, or so I'm told! (Not that I'd know from first hand experience, I'm lucky they let me drive a CAR! )




> That being said, in low light conditions (close to, but not fully scotopic), it only takes me a couple or three minutes for my adaptation to come back after using my NVG light. But, I also turn it on in low and let it ramp up, rather than start it on high. I also use a lower voltage battery, a 2032 in it instead of 2x2016, so it can go lower and doesn't go nearly as high that way.


 
Thanks - a few minutes would be a reasonable tradeoff in many situations.




> I think your intuition about the tasks that have been tested in low light vision not being similar to actual observing conditions is correct. One of the crazy contradictions about this is that most of the people I know in our local club can see the color of different stars even when they're fully scotopically adapted. That leads me to think either that they're not fully scotopically adapted as they think, in order to be able to differentiate different colors of stars, or that they're viewing objects of sufficient magnitude to overcome the scotopic adaptation at just the point where they're seeing the star on their retinae. It would be a small enough area that the total effect wouldn't really be noticeable consciously, or the light wouldn't be intense enough to invoke Whytte's reflex (the reflex where our pupils contract suddenly on exposure to bright light).


 
That sounds right, because I can definitely vouch for this myself, switching from albireo, a blue and gold double star over to say the veil nebula, the veil is obviously monochrome. Some planetary nebula have a distinct blueish / greenish color. (They mostly glow in OIII light.) These tend to be relatively small as well, not points like stars, but less than an arc minute anyway.



> I also agree that very dim red light is essentially useless, except for gross navigation. I'd rather have a dim NVG or white light for that purpose. I've been considering a light that will go ultra low, less than .1 lumen, but I'm still deciding how I want to proceed on this. My wife uses red lights mostly when we're observing, and the NVG photon I gave her for things like reading charts and logging observations. I use mine for pretty much everything. I'm considering getting her one of the new red ZL headlamps that are coming out soon, as she is still pretty traditional about that, and I know that she'd appreciate it, and so would other club members. I still get some negative reactions to my NVG light at club events sometimes.


 
I know what you mean about club events. I am pretty sure at some clubs you'd get less flack over a one of the new red Olight M20S than you would over your ridiculously faint NVG photon! (I am reasonably sure that with a modicum of dark adaptation, you could probably drive a car at low speeds pretty safely with the Olight! But gee, it's red so it must be OK!)

I highly recommend the ZL headlamps. I will probably buy one of the new H31r's when they come out. I've got the prior model, the h501r, and I really like it and use it heavily. The UI takes some getting used to. It is pretty natural for me to turn it on to low now, but honestly I had to make myself just practice with it for a couple of days until the action became muscle memory. I find it to be extremely useful at my scope, at least when I use any light at all.



> For observing though, I'd say that at the eyepiece, you really do want to be as close to scotopic as possible, so red is best for when you're actively working at your scope. My wife is the master at this... she finds stuff with her 10" manual dobsonian that most other people in the club have to use a computer controlled motor drive to find. She's become known for her ability to do that. I am the helper really, fetching food and equipment and stuff like that; I'm simply too ham-handed with the scope to even keep anything centered in the eyepiece... in general though, the NVG meets my needs for both observing and working pretty well. If I was doing the finding and being the primary scope operator, I'd probably want red, but I think NVG would be fine for that too, as long as you didn't get it too bright. My next step is going to be to experiment with using both a red and an NVG light.



Thanks for confirming this, and feel free to post about what you notice about red vs. NVG. I'd be interested in hearing about it. I really appreciate hearing from someone with:
- professional experience on the matter
- actual first hand experience at astronomy
- no real axe to grind

BTW, earlier you mentioned that under dim red light we tend to focus to infinity. Thanks for mentioning that, that explains an issue I didn't understand with my multi-focal contacts. (My soon to be ex-multi-focal contacts.) These things are duds for me - they are AWESOME at near and medium ranges. In daylight, they are slightly blurry at infinity, but they are tolerable, particularly given how good they are everywhere else. And they are comfortable. UNFORTUNATELY, at night, under dim light at infinity, they show double. I can't read street signs, stuff like that. Just not safe to drive while wearing them, but once I reach medium range, I can see OK with them in the dark. However, in my observatory dome, about 10 feet away from me, there's a little red LED on a power supply - and it ALSO was doubled when I looked at it, even though in daylight, at that range it would be in perfect focus with these lenses. But what you said explains this.

Anyway, if your wife can get used to the ZL UI, the little headlamps are just genuinely fantastic in my opinion. (I don't find the UI to be BAD - it is just that it is not natural, you have to press-hold, then double-click to get the lowest light level. In practice this is really no less convenient than just clicking the light on - but it is not what you'll do the first few dozen times you use the light...) I use mine every evening I go out to my observatory. Like I said, I bet I end up with a new one too. It is also pretty comfortable to wear. (OK, my SF saint minimus is better and more comfortable, but it's white light, and it well, cost like it is better too...) I'm not quite sure how many red LED lights I have - I have quite a few. The ZL and an old red SF L1 are the two I grab every night. (The L1 is mostly too bright - it's mainly for critter detection and avoidance! )


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## JA(me)S (Jun 14, 2011)

MrBenchmark said:


> Anyway, if your wife can get used to the ZL UI, the little headlamps are just genuinely fantastic in my opinion. (I don't find the UI to be BAD - it is just that it is not natural, *you have to press-hold, then double-click to get the lowest light level.* In practice this is really no less convenient than just clicking the light on - but it is not what you'll do the first few dozen times you use the light...)


 With the new ZL H51r, or H31r you long press (.6 sec.) to get to low. And then double click to toggle between L1 and L2 - *but it remembers* the last level chosen in each main level after turn off and through battery changes. Much easier.


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## MrBenchmark (Jun 14, 2011)

JA(me)S said:


> With the new ZL H51r, or H31r you long press (.6 sec.) to get to low. And then double click to toggle between L1 and L2 - *but it remembers* the last level chosen in each main level after turn off and through battery changes. Much easier.



Thanks for explaining that - I missed that. That is much better. I think I'll definitely need one of these.


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## B0wz3r (Jun 14, 2011)

Mr. B, I've got a couple of ZL's right now, an SC50w+ which is my primary EDC, and an H51w, both of which I love dearly. My only beef with the H51w is that it works poorly with a cap; I feel naked without a baseball cap on, and using the clip on my H51w on the bill is a half-assed solution at best. (I've got one of the new Spark ST5's on order from SBflashlights though...). I'm sure I could teach my wife to use the ZL interface without too much trouble. The only thing I think she'd complain about is it being 'too complicated'.

About professional feedback; we live in the SF bay area, and Alex Fillipenko has given talks at our club before (The Mt. Diablo Astronomical Society), and my wife goes to his talks on campus at Berkeley when she gets the chance. If I can, the next time he gives a talk, I'll see if I can ask him a few questions about his experiences with observing lights. Geoff Marcy sometimes comes to our club events too, so I can try and ask him when I get the chance.

We've had a lot of bad weather here lately, and the last three regular observing nights have all been cancelled due to poor conditions. My wife is going to the Golden State Star Party in July, so I don't know when we'll be able to get to our next club event, but I'll see what I can do about getting opinions. I was actually thinking about volunteering to give a talk about this whole topic at our next club event, and getting some feedback in advance would be a good idea for that. 

Anyway, I'd love to hear more about what your observing and equipment. We're still pretty much entry level amateurs, but the mirror in my wife's scope needs a professional cleaning and/or replacement; we don't have the funds right now to upgrade to a better model, but we've been considering making our own. I think we should focus on getting better eyepieces than going for sheer size... there is an older couple in our club that have a 24" truss dobsonian, and the thing is simply awesome... but buying something like that, let alone even just building one ourselves, is out of our time and resources capabilities right now.


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## CKOD (Jun 14, 2011)

night vision red/green/etc threads are always interesting. But what Ive been seeing in this thread also echoes what 






would seem to indicate.

Night vision is most sensitve to a cyan/green color, Day vision the most sensitive to a green/yellow color. If you wanted to totally avoid bleaching night vision receptors, then stuff in the 600nm+ range would affect them the least, while still somewhat providing illumination for the photopic receptors, though. A yellowy green from 555-575 nm would stimulate the photpic receptors fully while not affecting the scotopic receptors as much as a deeper green would.

I also find it interesting that low pressure sodium lamps emit around the 589nm band, which means its not so harsh on night vision, vs mercury or metal halide lamps throwing off light which the night vision receptors would be sensitve too.


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## calipsoii (Jun 14, 2011)

I know Barbarian long ago found his red LED light, but this thread has morphed into a general red LED discussion, so why not keep the ball rolling? 

First off, B0wz3r you write an impressive technical post, very interesting reading!

For anyone who already has a light powered by 5mm red LED(s) and is willing to do a little modding, I can vouch for the deep red LED's offered by LEDSupply. No, I don't work there or advertise for them and I'm not going to link them directly. The difference between their offering and a standard red LED is the wavelength: 660nm vs. the standard 620-630. I've used them in a couple A2 rings and it's a gorgeous red tint without a hint of pink. Makes the 620nm offered by SF/ZL/Inova look orange in comparison.






I ripped apart a cool white Fauxton ($0.50), replaced the LED with one of the deep red ones ($0.60), popped in a $2.00 3V CR2032 coin cell (2.8V max means it's a little overdriven but not much) and voila! A gorgeous deep red keychain light for under $5! Makes a good weekend project.


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## MrBenchmark (Jun 14, 2011)

B0wz3r said:


> About professional feedback; we live in the SF bay area, and Alex Fillipenko has given talks at our club before (The Mt. Diablo Astronomical Society), and my wife goes to his talks on campus at Berkeley when she gets the chance. If I can, the next time he gives a talk, I'll see if I can ask him a few questions about his experiences with observing lights. Geoff Marcy sometimes comes to our club events too, so I can try and ask him when I get the chance.


 
Oh cool, I really Dr. Fillipenko's talks! /jealous (I saw him on TV onetime give a talk about thermodynamics - he used a webber BBQ grill to demo it. I love those grills, so I thought that was just awesome!) 

I'd be interested to know if he actually ever looks through an eyepiece. There is no reason to do this professionally. It's neat, it's fun, and I love it, but for serious data collection of most astronomical objects, the Mark I eyeball is pretty much obsolete. A correctly applied CCD will capture more than your eye ever will, even connected to a gigantic telescope. However, people who ride horses mostly don't do it because it's the fastest way from point A to point B, either. Mostly. 



> Anyway, I'd love to hear more about what your observing and equipment. We're still pretty much entry level amateurs, but the mirror in my wife's scope needs a professional cleaning and/or replacement; we don't have the funds right now to upgrade to a better model, but we've been considering making our own. I think we should focus on getting better eyepieces than going for sheer size... there is an older couple in our club that have a 24" truss dobsonian, and the thing is simply awesome... but buying something like that, let alone even just building one ourselves, is out of our time and resources capabilities right now.



Since we're really derailing this topic, I'll PM you with my email address and a link to my observatory website.


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## BARBARIAN-X (Jun 19, 2011)

B0wz3r said:


> Wait, the Proton Pro UV isn't an NVG light... it'll be more like a blacklight really... But, that might be cool too!  I've always wanted a UV flashlight just that reason... It might actually work well as a night vision light. I don't remember if it's LRI or Inova that makes them, but they do make a UV coin cell light they call the 'scorpion killer' or something like that... cause spiders and scorpions really light up under UV so it's easy to find 'em and squish 'em. Fortunately, where I live, there's no scorpions, but we do tarantulas!
> 
> Sorry... I'm rambling... it's late and I just spent the last three hours chopping firewood, and now Capt. Morgan and Coke are having their way with me! LOL...



NVG not UV...D'oh! 
Just got the lights last week and they are nice. The white/red Proton Pro is very useful but obviously the Proton UV isn't. At least it's a good spider light, I hate those *******s! The Proton Pro's red led appears to get too bright at the highest setting as I have had sleeping prisoners move in their sleep when I hit them with it. At lower levels it was fine but for simplicity I have just been using a CMG Infinty for this purpose because it's one brightness setting is lower than the Proton Pro's highest. The CMG is also toddler approved as I have been testing it out on my sleeping son and he hasn't stirred. lol I'll have to order a NVG light to test out...any suggestions?


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## kramer5150 (Jun 19, 2011)

Fun thread....
I use a SF-A2 with red LEDs. Its dim enough that I can snoop around the house without waking up my wife or kids. Its actually a_ little too bright if_ I just shine it around, but I ceiling bounce it and it completely preserves my night vision. I was with my brother in law 2-3 months ago and we were looking at Jupiter and its moons, using the A2 to preserve our vision.

Awesome little nightstand light














Sammy approves this thRED


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## RedLED (Jun 19, 2011)

CKOD said:


> night vision red/green/etc threads are always interesting. But what Ive been seeing in this thread also echoes what
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

In my gel sample book, there is a turquoise blue with similar numbers.


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## RedLED (Jun 19, 2011)

*New Red Flashlight Announcement - RED SUN DROP!*

I would also like to announce that I recently got a _Red Sun Drop_ from McGizmo!

Floody, and three levels of red. Perfect for me to navigate backstage at things with three cameras.

I have been testing the other colors for night use with my photo gel sample book. This, and something to use as a gel holder will change the color of any light. If you have an L1, you can use the F04. The Mag accessories work good, too.

To test, just use some gaffer tape like we do in photography. If you can take the light apart, just put the gel inside against the lens. Gel is made to work huge lights for motion picture, television, and photogtaphy production, so heat is not a problem.

_The Red Sun Drop_ is fantastic!!!

Good luck,

RL


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## B0wz3r (Jun 19, 2011)

*Re: New Red Flashlight Announcement - RED SUN DROP!*

Dude, I'd be happy with just a *regular* Sun Drop!!!


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## RedLED (Jul 4, 2011)

*Re: New Red Flashlight Announcement - RED SUN DROP!*

As a lover of Red LED lights, I found this one: _Xenopus Electronix 660 Ultra Red Flashlight._ (I did not link it, but you can search for it).

Seems OK, does any one have one? For $60.00, worth a try?


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## RedLED (Jul 4, 2011)

angelofwar said:


> Yeah, the X5 is too bright on a fresh cell...but put your half dead cell in there, and it's just right! There's one for sell in the MP right now.


 
If you need to dim your light down without the color changing, use (ND) Neutral Density Gel filters. We use them in photography to cut the lights down for some specialized lighting on a set. 

This will transfer over to flashlights. You can get the ND filters in the Gel sample books, with color, and diffusion gels, too!

Just an FYI.

Respectfully submitted,

Wishing the best to the best,

RedLed /NR


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## B0wz3r (Jul 4, 2011)

*Re: New Red Flashlight Announcement - RED SUN DROP!*



RedLed said:


> As a lover of Red LED lights, I found this one: _Xenopus Electronix 660 Ultra Red Flashlight._ (I did not link it, but you can search for it).
> 
> Seems OK, does any one have one? For $60.00, worth a try?


 
Unless I misread it, it seems like it's single mode only... not good for astronomy applications.

But, after doing the search for it, I did find a Rigel systems light with both night vision red and green outputs, with true red and night vision green wavelengths respectively. Gosh... I guess I'll have to buy a couple more flashlights now, one for me, and one for my wife! LOL!!!


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## carrot (Jul 4, 2011)

*Re: New Red Flashlight Announcement - RED SUN DROP!*



B0wz3r said:


> Unless I misread it, it seems like it's single mode only... not good for astronomy applications.
> 
> But, after doing the search for it, I did find a Rigel systems light with both night vision red and green outputs, with true red and night vision green wavelengths respectively. Gosh... I guess I'll have to buy a couple more flashlights now, one for me, and one for my wife! LOL!!!



Let us know how the Rigel Skylights work out. It's been a long time since they got any mention over here.


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## StandardBattery (Jul 4, 2011)

*Re: New Red Flashlight Announcement - RED SUN DROP!*

I have a Rigel Skylight with Red and Green. I don't use it for any particular application though so I can't comment on it in that way. As you know if you have read about them the beam is no so clean (red seems wose than green in the hot spot), but with their variable brightness and both red and green in on light I would think they would be pretty good for any nightime activity where closeup illumination was required. If I got some nice difuser material one say I might use it on this light.


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## angelofwar (Jul 4, 2011)

RedLed said:


> If you need to dim your light down without the color changing, use (ND) Neutral Density Gel filters. We use them in photography to cut the lights down for some specialized lighting on a set.
> 
> This will transfer over to flashlights. You can get the ND filters in the Gel sample books, with color, and diffusion gels, too!
> 
> ...


 
Thanks for the tip, Red! Is this stuff only available at photography stores? Or can it be found in B&M stores?

AOW


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## B0wz3r (Jul 4, 2011)

carrot said:


> Let us know how the Rigel Skylights work out. It's been a long time since they got any mention over here.



I'll try and remember... I've got a few other lights on my 'to buy' list, so I'll have to see what I can do. The order of priority on that list is pretty much in constant flux, so I don't even try to keep it in order any more...  LOL!



StandardBattery said:


> I have a Rigel Skylight with Red and Green. I don't use it for any particular application though so I can't comment on it in that way. As you know if you have read about them the beam is no so clean (red seems wose than green in the hot spot), but with their variable brightness and both red and green in on light I would think they would be pretty good for any nightime activity where closeup illumination was required. If I got some nice difuser material one say I might use it on this light.


 
That is exactly the one I was looking at. Since it's not going to be a regular use light for me/my wife, I'm not that concerned about the beam profile; as long as it does what I want. In fact, I'll probably buy a red/white one for my wife, and a red/green one for myself.

A couple weekends ago we were at a star party at a place called Fremont Peak; I was using my Photon Micro with the NVG emitter as usual. I was able to test it out against a few other red lights that other people there had. I found that if I set it to a low enough level, I couldn't see any color in the beam; everything looked black and white, which is as it should be if you're only operating scotopically. It was also much dimmer than most other people's red-orange lights and so once again I was able to confirm that even just for preserving dark adaptation, it's still superior to a red tinted light (at least for me anyway).


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## Mdinana (Jul 5, 2011)

So I'm glad to see this thread still up and running... had a few pertinent questions!
Yesterday our building's generator went out. I was using my Storm to ceiling bounce, but my headlamp around outside. Which got me wondering... my headlamp is a Petzl Tactical, but the "red" is really orange. Compare that to my SF E2L with an F04 filter, or my red X5, or my red SF KL1 (I think). Those reds were very similar in color, much deeper red than the petzl. However, super bright compared to the petzl too!

I guess my questions are, #1 - is a bright red going to ruin your night vision relative to a dim red of same wavelength? And is that orangey-red of the Petzl going to jack my night vision up? #3 - given the choices (bright red or dull orange-red), which would be better for maintaining night vision?


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## B0wz3r (Jul 5, 2011)

Mdinana said:


> So I'm glad to see this thread still up and running... had a few pertinent questions!
> Yesterday our building's generator went out. I was using my Storm to ceiling bounce, but my headlamp around outside. Which got me wondering... my headlamp is a Petzl Tactical, but the "red" is really orange. Compare that to my SF E2L with an F04 filter, or my red X5, or my red SF KL1 (I think). Those reds were very similar in color, much deeper red than the petzl. However, super bright compared to the petzl too!
> 
> I guess my questions are, #1 - is a bright red going to ruin your night vision relative to a dim red of same wavelength? And is that orangey-red of the Petzl going to jack my night vision up? #3 - given the choices (bright red or dull orange-red), which would be better for maintaining night vision?


 
#1) Yes.

#2) Yes.

#3) Bright red, as long as it's "deep" red.


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## Mdinana (Jul 5, 2011)

Thanks,Senor Succinct!


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## Sub_Umbra (Jul 5, 2011)

I think the old red CMG Infinities were actually quite orange -- ~625-630nm IIRC. I would still recommend a Covert Nose Photon Freedom in NV Green. It has a great interface and if it's too bright it may be depowered by replacing the 2 stock cr2016s with 1 cr2032, as mentioned earlier.

Between the two power options the NVG PH is up to *a wide range of tasks* where the user needs to preserve his scotopic / mesopic vision.


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## B0wz3r (Jul 5, 2011)

Yep, or one of the Rigel systems lights which are a true deep red (660 nm). I really like my NVG photon; works very well for me.

Just remember that ANY light will undo your dark adaptation if it's bright enough.


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## Sub_Umbra (Jul 5, 2011)

B0wz3r said:


> Yep, or one of the Rigel systems lights which are a true deep red (660 nm). I really like my NVG photon; works very well for me.
> 
> Just remember that ANY light will undo your dark adaptation if it's bright enough.



I've never owned the bigger, original Rigel but the Rigel Minis have sockets for the LEDs and changing colors is as simple as plugging them in. Leon (at Rigel) has stated that CPFers may order additional colors of LEDs with their Minis -- a great deal for experimenters.

It also may be possible to order a Rigel with both *Deep Red* and *NVG* (in place of white). That would be cool for the experimenter, too. An email to Rigel flagged to *Leon* would tell the tale.


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## B0wz3r (Jul 5, 2011)

Excellent! Thx for the info. I definitely want a deep-red/NVG model for myself, and a red/white one for my wife.


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## Sub_Umbra (Jul 5, 2011)

Some general info on Rigel Systems lights:

The design of the Originals and the Minis does not employ *PWM.*

Electronics is not my forte. They dim them...errr...some other way. With a given color LED there may be a considerable color shift which corresponds to output level. It will sometimes feel intrusive to those used to the UI and smooth PWM of the PF. The lights still work very well *and with a much wider output range* than the rest of the field. In my experience the color shift doesn't affect the job at hand -- it just tugs at my spoiled eye. 

On the other hand, Leon Palmer's lights are definitely the real deal. His NVG lights are the only lights I'm aware of that have been certified compatible with NV gear by the Air Force's Advanced Research Lab in White Sands, NM.

The 'Originals' are bigger and better sealed against the elements. The 'Minis' are smaller and IMO very well suited to indoor environs. The armchair commandos won't like the fact that the Minis leak a bit of light and will sometimes 'bounce apart' if dropped on the floor. It really doesn't affect their utility. They are designed to be used under certain conditions, day in and day out and do their weird trip. They do it very well. Wish I had mine for padding around indoors in the aftermath of Katrina.


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## B0wz3r (Jul 5, 2011)

Sub_Umbra said:


> Some general info on Rigel Systems lights:
> 
> The design of the Originals and the Minis does not employ *PWM.*
> 
> ...


 
Sub-Umbra, thanks again for the extra info.

I'm no EE either, so just as a guess I'd say they probably have some kind of resistor in the thumb wheel that alters the voltage to the emitters, and as such I'd also guess they probably use a constant current driver. Either way, no PWM would be a welcome feature.

I think these Rigel lights have definitely moved up toward the top of my 'to-buy' list; I'll just have to pull a fast one on my wife and stick a couple on the CC while she's not looking... Of course, I'll still end up sleeping on the couch for a few days, LOL, but in the long run, I think she'll appreciate having them.


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## RedLED (Jul 6, 2011)

angelofwar said:


> Thanks for the tip, Red! Is this stuff only available at photography stores? Or can it be found in B&M stores?
> 
> AOW


 
Any professional camera store will have gel samples. In LA they sit in a huge box at grip supply stores, and you just help your self. Many people could be involved in lighting a set, and there should be several sample books in the grip supplies, or grip truck.

Then you order the sheets in what ever you need, I have had some gel sheets for years in my primary lighting case.


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## RedLED (Jul 6, 2011)

RedLed said:


> Any professional camera store will have gel samples. In LA they sit in a huge box at grip supply stores, and you just help your self. Many people could be involved in lighting a set, and there should be several sample books in the grip supplies, or grip truck.
> 
> Then you order the sheets in what ever you need, I have had some gel sheets for years in my primary lighting case.


 
Next time I go to LA, I will pick up some sample books, and offer them free here. But, first, I must update my sunglasses since you Can't go to lunch in LA with actresses, and publicists and not...well never mind. I will get some gel books!


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## Vox Clamatis in Deserto (Jul 6, 2011)

Went out last night to do some stargazing and visual satellite tracking. Was in Alaska the last couple of days, it barely gets dark enough for the fireworks this time of year (in the southern part of the state anyway, the sun stays up in Barrow). But, back home in the lower 48, it was a nice clear dark moonless night in the hours before sunrise.

Took B0wz3r's advice and bought a NVG Photon Freedom Micro. It is indeed a great light for visual astronomy work. Nice user interface, easy to get to the lowest or highest levels immediately. I'll try the 2032 battery option when the current cells deplete. I also had a Gerber Infinity Ultra M, mine has a flat glass lens in front of the red LED, unlike the one pictured earlier on this thread. It has a great beam and the level is more than enough for dark adapted eyes. Also had an HDS Rotary, it was a too little bright on the lowest setting, I know there is some click click hold press procedure to reprogram it even lower but I'll save that for a time when I'm not jetlagged. To check for animals in the back forty I used a Surefire green L1, it was plenty of light on low after my eyes were fully dark adapted.

I need to find something like an ND flim that will stick to my notebook computer screen to dim it even more. While I can precompute and print out sky charts for satellites of interest, it is usually easier to go to www.heavens-above.com and look at the list for your location.


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## Sub_Umbra (Jul 6, 2011)

Vox Clamatis in Deserto said:


> ...I need to find something like an ND flim that will stick to my notebook computer screen to dim it even more. While I can precompute and print out sky charts for satellites of interest, it is usually easier to go to www.heavens-above.com and look at the list for your location.


I use a program called XFLUX (Linux). It is a little quirky but essentially I plug in a Longitude and Latitude and it changes the color temp of the display.

Check out this page for availability of F.lux for Linux, Mac and Win:

http://stereopsis.com/flux/

I wish it were easier to set up for different locations. I try to push my location a few hours west as we are night people -- but it is a bit quirky.


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## shao.fu.tzer (Jul 6, 2011)

I use a Coleman Exponent 1 x CR123 flashlight that a non-flashaholic family member gifted to me to get around at night. It has a mode selector ring for red 5mm output or white XR-E (I'm guessing a P4) light. I run 3.7V LiCo RCRs in it and it seems to have decent runtime. I think it's a bit overpriced though considering the output and overall construction... Still a neat little bugger though that gives 2 stages of red and white light.

Shao


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## Vox Clamatis in Deserto (Jul 6, 2011)

> I use a program called XFLUX (Linux). It is a little quirky but essentially I plug in a Longitude and Latitude and it changes the color temp of the display.


 
Thanks a lot, I'll check it out tonight if the skies are still clear. The link you gave has a post referencing a recent NYT article about blue light suppressing melatonin production: 

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/05/health/05light.html

If I use my blue SF L1 will I stay awake longer into the night and be more alert as I stargaze? Or, does this only work at higher light levels as in a light box to treat Seasonal Affective Disorder? Maybe Dr. B0wz3r can take a look at the source document from the NYT article and give us a learned opinion. Amazon has already mentioned this melatonin suppression effect in Kindle advertising, claiming that the passive screen is better for reading before sleep.:tired:


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## Sub_Umbra (Jul 6, 2011)

Vox Clamatis in Deserto said:


> ...If I use my blue SF L1 will I stay awake longer into the night and be more alert as I stargaze? Or, does this only work at higher light levels as in a light box to treat Seasonal Affective Disorder? Maybe Dr. B0wz3r can take a look at the source document from the NYT article and give us a learned opinion. Amazon has already mentioned this melatonin suppression effect in Kindle advertising, claiming that the passive screen is better for reading before sleep.:tired:


When it comes to melatonin retention and blue light it's all about output levels and pointing discipline. Keep your levels low and, *as always,* watch your pointing. I used blue light for years and years in technical theater. Blue takes some getting used to but it is very manageable. Because of the way blue light 'scatters' it seems to be the easiest to hide from audiences which is why it is used *so much* by stage hands and techies. Like cyan lights, it may be difficult to find one *dim enough.* Gels to the rescue.

I use Xflux when I can't sleep and want to surf for a half hour at 5 am without losing all my melatonin.

I also always have the brightness / contrast on my monitor set a little dimmer than most.


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## B0wz3r (Jul 6, 2011)

Vox Clamatis in Deserto said:


> Took B0wz3r's advice and bought a NVG Photon Freedom Micro. It is indeed a great light for visual astronomy work.



Glad I could help. 



Vox Clamatis in Deserto said:


> I need to find something like an ND flim that will stick to my notebook computer screen to dim it even more. While I can precompute and print out sky charts for satellites of interest, it is usually easier to go to www.heavens-above.com and look at the list for your location.



My wife got a deep red plexiglass panel that she puts over the screen of her laptop when she uses it while stargazing. I'll ask her where she got it and report back.



Vox Clamatis in Deserto said:


> Thanks a lot, I'll check it out tonight if the skies are still clear. The link you gave has a post referencing a recent NYT article about blue light suppressing melatonin production:
> 
> http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/05/health/05light.html
> 
> If I use my blue SF L1 will I stay awake longer into the night and be more alert as I stargaze? Or, does this only work at higher light levels as in a light box to treat Seasonal Affective Disorder? Maybe Dr. B0wz3r can take a look at the source document from the NYT article and give us a learned opinion. Amazon has already mentioned this melatonin suppression effect in Kindle advertising, claiming that the passive screen is better for reading before sleep.:tired:


 
Blue light does indeed suppress melatonin production, but it is also intensity dependent. The brighter the light, the greater the effect on melatonin production. Melatonin also works in conjunction with two other hormonal proteins in the brain and nervous system, called 'per' and 'tim' that are the primary neurohormones that control our circadian clock.

We have a set of ganglion cells in the retinae that are light sensitive themselves and do not receive any input from the photoreceptors (I don't remember what they're called off the top of my head, I just know that they're not the magno-, parvo-, or konio- ganglion cells). They sense long term changes in light levels and are most sensitive to the shorter blue wavelengths, shading into the high UV range. They send their input directly to a structure called the suprachiasmatic nucleus, which is the primary structure in the midbrain that in turn sends signals to the limbic system and hypothalamus, which controls our level of physiological arousal and metabolism. As they receive less light, they send less and less signals to the hypothalamus and the pituitary which are less inhibited as a result, and so they produce more melatonin. So if you expose yourself to bright, cool white light at night, it will indeed keep you from getting to sleep. It can even have long term effects on your sleep cycle. 

After more than a decade of graduate work, research, and teaching (in other words staying up late a lot working, and pulling all-nighters) I have a pretty messed up sleep cycle, and have severe chronic insomnia. In fact, I actually can't sleep at times unless I take a sleeping med like Ambien, Lunesta, or I work myself to exhaustion. One of the hidden costs of higher education! oo:


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## RedLED (Jul 7, 2011)

I need to find something like an ND flim that will stick to my notebook computer screen to dim it even more. While I can precompute and print out sky charts for satellites of interest said:


> www.heavens-above.com[/URL] and look at the list for your location.


 
Use the gel sample books I mention, find the _ND Neutral Density and Red colors_, and then buy sheets or rolls for whatever combination you feel will work best. You will just need sheets. Use black Gaffer's Tape to apply.

I have had some gel's for years, they and very tough and not expensive.

A lighting director, gave me some when I was the production's set photographer for the principal cast, and I still have it in use today.

We call Gel an expendable, like tape a one time use item, however, gel's have a long life. 

Roscoe and lee are the companies. 

Good Luck,

Ned Redway


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## Vox Clamatis in Deserto (Jul 7, 2011)

> Blue light does indeed suppress melatonin production, but it is also intensity dependent.


 


> After more than a decade of graduate work, research, and teaching (in other words staying up late a lot working, and pulling all-nighters) I have a pretty messed up sleep cycle, and have severe chronic insomnia. In fact, I actually can't sleep at times unless I take a sleeping med like Ambien, Lunesta, or I work myself to exhaustion. One of the hidden costs of higher education! oo:


 
I can sure relate to your insomnia, I crossed the international date line four times last week with my job. My sleep cycle will be messed up for days to come. Thanks for the suppression of melatonin production explaination.:thumbsup:

As luck would have it, one of my colleagues from my recent trip is a retired U.S. Air Force pilot who worked on developing NVG cockpit specs at Wright-Patterson AFB a few years ago. We chatted as we watched the zodiacal light rise before dawn eastbound high above the Pacific. Some of the Air Force's findings will be no surprise to us here on CPF. Consistent dimming of displays and map lights to very low levels using cold cathode tube and LED technologies has proved to be quite a challenge. PWM is a real problem if it impacts the scan of a crewmember during eye saccades.



> Use the gel sample books I mention, find the _ND Neutral Density and Red colors_, and then buy sheets or rolls for whatever combination you feel will work best. You will just need sheets. Use black Gaffer's Tape to apply.


 
Thanks, I've seen coworkers use some sticky plastic rectangles as sunshades, the plastic is like an ND gel and clings to the inside of an aircraft window. I'm not sure if they were made for planes or cars. That might be another good solution for dimming the notebook computer screen. Also, I have a Kindle with a rudimentary web browser, it might be ideal with no backlight if I can get the tables and star charts to scale properly.

Last night was a little hazy but I still got some good satellite observations including a couple of NOSS formations (see: http://www.satobs.org/noss.html). I found an old white Photon Freedom in a drawer and did the undervolt trick with a CR2032 battery I had been saving for a computer motherboard. As advertised, it was plenty dim for work under starlight. I'll leave the original batteries in the NVG Freedom until they need replacement. Somewhere I've got a Surefire T1A, it is dim enough but cuts off after five minutes on the low settings.

I left the computer inside and used my iPhone to look up satellite transits this time. I tried a Surefire HL1-A-TN helmet light for the low light work. The blue LED's on low make a nice area light and they will last a long time on the SF123A battery. The tiny toggle switches are a little hard to find in the dark, I wasn't sure if I left the infrared IFF strobe on or not. I've got the handheld version of the Streamlight Sidewinder, will have to compare it to the SF HL1 next time.


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## B0wz3r (Jul 7, 2011)

Vox Clamatis in Deserto said:


> Thanks for the suppression of melatonin production explaination.:thumbsup:



No worries, my pleasure. 



Vox Clamatis in Deserto said:


> As luck would have it, one of my colleagues from my recent trip last is a retired U.S. Air Force pilot who worked on developing NVG cockpit specs at Wright-Patterson AFB a few years ago. We chatted as we watched the zodiacal light rise before dawn eastbound high above the Pacific. Some of the Air Force's findings will be no surprise to us here on CPF. Consistent dimming of displays and map lights to very low levels using cold cathode tube and LED technologies has proved to be quite a challenge. PWM is a real problem if it impacts the scan of a crewmember during eye saccades.


 
This is actually something I've been interested in, and if not for the fact I just accepted a full time assistant prof. position at a college in Iowa, I was planning on looking for work with the Air Force on these issues.

One of the things about CCT's is that their warm up period is hard to account for with respect to night vision adaptation. LED's don't have that problem, quite the opposite in fact, but when PWM comes into play, if it's not at a high enough rate, the eye does indeed miss info during saccades. 

While in grad school I did some work with my adviser on differences between LCD displays and CRT's on saccadic adaptation. We found that with a CRT and the intermittent fluorescence they have, people have to compensate for the impoverished stimulus of the display with increased saccadic magnitudes and decreased latency, despite the fact it looks like the pixels are continuously burning. In other words, people have to make more and larger saccades to compensate for the lack of the continuous burn of the pixels. LCD displays don't have this problem as their pixels do burn continuously, but they don't have refresh latencies that are close enough to CRT's to not induce similar issues. Add the issues that CCTs have, and PWM issues with LED's, and it definitely presents quite a challenge.

I'd love to be able to do more of this kind of work, but for now I'll have to stick to teaching.


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## Vox Clamatis in Deserto (Jul 9, 2011)

> This is actually something I've been interested in, and if not for the fact I just accepted a full time assistant prof. position at a college in Iowa, I was planning on looking for work with the Air Force on these issues.


 
Congratulations! :thumbsup: A full time job is wonderful news in this economy. Many folks here on CPF are still looking from what I read.


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## Bicycleflyer (Jul 10, 2011)

It appears the OP has made a choice...but I would have recommended the Streamlight Night com


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## StandardBattery (Jul 10, 2011)

Bicycleflyer said:


> It appears the OP has made a choice...but I would have recommended the Streamlight Night com


That OK, we need a Red Led thread... I've got a couple coming in the mail.


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## Vox Clamatis in Deserto (Jul 10, 2011)

> That OK, we need a Red Led thread... I've got a couple coming in the mail.


 
OK, I'll bite. Which ones?


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## StandardBattery (Jul 10, 2011)

Vox Clamatis in Deserto said:


> OK, I'll bite. Which ones?


 And spoil the surprise??? 

OK.... the new Zebralight Red headlamps.


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## B0wz3r (Jul 11, 2011)

StandardBattery said:


> And spoil the surprise???
> 
> OK.... the new Zebralight Red headlamps.


 
Unfortunately, they are, just like the solarforce red LED p60 module I just got, red-orange, and not a true deep red.  I'm thinking I'll use the L2r I have with the red module for the emergency light in my wife's new mini van, but the voltage requirements mean it has to run on 2x14500 which I think is a big drawback for it.


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## moshow9 (Jul 12, 2011)

My H51R arrived today. From my very brief quick try out test, the tint seems much like B0wz3r stated..red with a slight slant to orange. It has a really nice low too.  My H501R was went in for servicing, which is normally used on my pack when I go bike riding. I hope to get it back soon to compare the tint between the two.


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## Mdinana (Jul 13, 2011)

I'm jealous. Mine is still in transit. It's not a "good" red then? That's one of the reasons I finally buckled to Zebralight pressure.


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## B0wz3r (Jul 13, 2011)

Mdinana said:


> I'm jealous. Mine is still in transit. It's not a "good" red then? That's one of the reasons I finally buckled to Zebralight pressure.


 
It will work, just don't turn it up much higher than L1 or it will affect your night vision.


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## flashmenow (Jul 13, 2011)

Hi all. I know this thread is about RED Leds. But also night vision is stated. Cyan will also perserve night vision. 

Here is a Cyan light. "Wall Of Cyan" It's a 5 watt custom. Not minimal light a lot of Cyan light. Thought I would share this interesting light. . Glenn







Has a Cyan emitter , not a filter .






This is a beam shot from about 5ft. The hot spot is about 2ft in diameter.


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## B0wz3r (Jul 13, 2011)

Very cool. Care to tell us more about it? Modes, output, wavelength, cost, availability, cells it runs on, etc.?


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## flashmenow (Jul 13, 2011)

B0wz3r said:


> Very cool. Care to tell us more about it? Modes, output, wavelength, cost, availability, cells it runs on, etc.?



Thanks ! 


It was made by EngrPaul , I picked it up from Lightknot in trade . It was a one off build, but the thread has information if you were to seek the parts. 6V max 17670 or 2X CR123, Single mode . 



Here is the original sales thread, have a read here for more info. :

http://www.cpfmarketplace.com/mp/sh...YAN...-Now-just-80-Shipped-USA&highlight=cyan


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## B0wz3r (Jul 13, 2011)

flashmenow said:


> Thanks !
> 
> 
> It was made by EngrPaul , I picked it up from Lightknot in trade . It was a one off build, but the thread has information if you were to seek the parts. 6V max 17670 or 2X CR123, Single mode .
> ...


 
Sounds cool... I'd need it to be multimode though... with a true moonlight mode for what I need a light like that for.


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## flashmenow (Jul 13, 2011)

Bowz3r. I was just sharing another unusual light. This one is actually very bright. It is a "wall" of light. I reside in Florida, also I am a Jeep-er. On occasion I travel into the Everglades. Should prove to be a unique experience to see nature in Cyan. This is not meant for low light applications. Sorry to have interjected it into the "RED" Led thread, but in general cyan is good for general night vision retention, just not this set up. 

I have plans to try this on a depleted battery to see how low/long the light will run.


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## B0wz3r (Jul 14, 2011)

flashmenow said:


> Bowz3r. I was just sharing another unusual light. This one is actually very bright. It is a "wall" of light. I reside in Florida, also I am a Jeep-er. On occasion I travel into the Everglades. Should prove to be a unique experience to see nature in Cyan. This is not meant for low light applications. Sorry to have interjected it into the "RED" Led thread, but in general cyan is good for general night vision retention, just not this set up.
> 
> I have plans to try this on a depleted battery to see how low/long the light will run.


 
No worries; more info is always better than less info.

Right now I'm looking for a gift for my wife for stargazing, and I think the Rigel systems will be the best bet. I wish I could find a light that had true deep red, cyan, and white emitters all in one.


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## StandardBattery (Jul 16, 2011)

*DC Fix, really fixes the Rigel Systems SkyLite-mini!*
Applying the DC Fix (Sand) Diffusion film really improves this light for low-light application. The film is sold by Phaserburn on the CPFmarketplace, or you can get it direct out of Germany if you need a lot of it. If you have this light it is just too easy to fix with this stuff.


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## B0wz3r (Jul 16, 2011)

StandardBattery said:


> *DC Fix, really fixes the Rigel Systems SkyLite-mini!*
> Applying the DC Fix (Sand) Diffusion film really improves this light for low-light application. The film is sold by Phaserburn on the CPFmarketplace, or you can get it direct out of Germany if you need a lot of it. If you have this light it is just too easy to fix with this stuff.


 
Excellent! Thanks for sharing those beamshots! I think that should be just the ticket for us. 

On a side note, I'm finding that I'm using DC-fix on more and more of my lights... basically for anything that isn't a dedicated thrower...


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## sinthemau (Jul 20, 2011)

Just received a ZL H501r new from Neolumen (France)
Beautiful red light at the great price of € 39.95 !!! 

Really great price, I coudn't not take it...take a look...:twothumbs
For European people if you spend at least € 50, shipping is free.

It seems a great light with an interesting firefly mode at 0.1 lumen for 13 days...
It's my first red led light and I'm very curious to test it this night...:sigh: too many hours to wait!


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## Cataract (Jul 20, 2011)

Another happy Zebra owner here. Just got the H31R a few minutes ago and this thing is really nice. I also received a H51WF and have to mention that for the difference in size and specs, you might as well get the AA version for cheaper and readily available batteries. 
The tint is ever so slightly on the orange side, just but with the low output of this thing it definitely won't affect your night vision (then again, any bright light would, no matter the color). I might just get an H51R too...


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## StandardBattery (Jul 20, 2011)

Yes, the new Red ZebraLights are very nice. I don't think they are too orange either, but I've only used it for a few days around the house and 1 trip outside to see if the bugs would be attracted. Happy to report you are bug free outside with this. The great thing is that it is bright enough to actually use it while walking outdoors.

I've been waiting to take some pictures and use it in direct comparison with some other lights. So far I am happy and I think Campers would be happy. we just need a head band that would allow one to mount a white led and a read led one-above-the-other style. 

It would be VERY cool if Zebralight could make a double headed headlamp with red on 1 one end and white on the other.


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## Cataract (Jul 20, 2011)

StandardBattery said:


> [...]It would be VERY cool if Zebralight could make a double headed headlamp with red on 1 one end and white on the other.



You can put 2 zebra headlamps on one headband... just open up the headband (slip the end through the loops) and slip a second holder and you have whichever combination of 2 or more Zebras on one band. That's what I'll be doing later tonight...


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## StandardBattery (Jul 20, 2011)

Cataract said:


> You can put 2 zebra headlamps on one headband... just open up the headband (slip the end through the loops) and slip a second holder and you have whichever combination of 2 or more Zebras on one band. That's what I'll be doing later tonight...


 Yes you could do that... but I don't feel it is optimal; maybe it will work OK



StandardBattery said:


> ...... we just need a head band that would allow one to mount a white led and a read led *one-above-the-other *style. ....


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