# My new caving-light



## majoetetaa07 (Jan 22, 2013)

Hello, I'm new in this forum.
I am a speleo from France, Ardèche. Sorry for my english, I never use it.

This post just to show you my new caving headlight I finished this week.As I don't know how to put the image in this forum, you can see it here: https://plus.google.com/photos/1122...s/5835870744715236433?authkey=CO7qkeyhx4TtmAE
If this link doesn't work, try this one: 
https://picasaweb.google.com/112252570996929488658/LaNipharledIVArdechoise#

I followed the excellent plan of Dominique ROS, that you can find here: http://speleoclpa.free.fr/boitaoutils/eclairage/Nipharled IV/le_projet_2012.htm

Some specifications: Up to 3000lm in hight level with 4 XM-L U2 in wide and 1 XM-L U2 in spot.
Nearly 80h in secure level (80lm), up to 8 hours in middle level (700lm)
Height levels for the wide which is driving with maxflex6 you can regulate from 350mA to 1300mA (I put it at 750mA, it's generally enough in cave).
3 levels for the spot controlled with Super Output SSC driver.

I have built 2 accumulators Li-ion 7.2V 5200mA with a new PC battery I have just broken for that (8 cells = 2 battery 2s2p = 23€), and one accu Li-Po 7.4V (I don't know the capacity) with a worn battery of my MacBook (3s2p 11.8V ≈ one 2s2p 7.4V and one 1s2p 3.7V for my future headlight).
The weight is 680g with the frontlight + battery + helmet (Petzl Altios). A little bit too heavy for a long caving excursion, but not too much for one under 8 or 10 hours.
Of course, the weight is certainly incompatible for only a headlight to go running, not for a bike light. The headlight alone is 170g weight, without battery.

It costs me 230€ ($310 ?), all parts included (except the helmet).
I think I will build another one lighter, perhaps with only 2 Cree XM-L U2 new models (1020 lm each) controlled with a Lflex driver and a Li-ion 3.7V (2s or 3s) and a lighter box.

That's all.
A lot of french speleologists now build their own caving lights because of the cost of professional lights like the Scurion for example.
You can see a blog from a french speleo (who died this autumn in Vercors) with this link: https://picasaweb.google.com/111031016820424814817/BrontoledEtBidouillesSPELEO A Very good speleo and very good handyman for self-made light.

Have a good night :wave:.
Etienne


----------



## Mooreshire (Jan 23, 2013)

Great job on your lamp, Majoetetaa07. Also, welcome to the forum! :welcome:

Very interesting links. It looks like there are a lot of interesting lamps being put together in France.


----------



## AnAppleSnail (Jan 23, 2013)

I don't suppose any of the caves in France are open? The ones near here (South Germany near Rheinfelden) are closed until after my business trip to Europe ends. That is an impressive light!

Your English is quite good. Thank you for sharing your work with us.


----------



## majoetetaa07 (Jan 23, 2013)

AnAppleSnail said:


> I don't suppose any of the caves in France are open? The ones near here (South Germany near Rheinfelden) are closed until after my business trip to Europe ends. That is an impressive light!
> 
> Your English is quite good. Thank you for sharing your work with us.



@Mooreshire and AnAppleSnail: Thanks for your welcome

Most caves in France are in free access, except the commercially exploited, and those which present a singular and fragile characteristic (géologie or biologie). Also some whose owners do not want problems.
And of course, near my home, the Chauvet-Pont d'Arc cave.
We also do many explorations to find news caves and aven.
Because of pollution, some caves are now prohibited of visit with carbure (translate ?) lamps. So most speleologists use ledlight now. And a lot built their own caving ledlight.

The weigh front box is exactly 160g (with all material in it). The battery 2s2p weigh is 210g. It was very simply to built this light, only necessary right knowledge to weld. 
Because of the need for cooling the drivers, it's difficult to have a less heavy lamp.

A plitaw :wave:
Etienne


----------



## ihrc (Jan 27, 2013)

Nice job. I'm new here too. I'm looking for ideas for building my own caving headlamp. This gives me some good ideas.


----------



## majoetetaa07 (Jan 28, 2013)

I tested my lamp for the first time this WE.
My first impressions:very easy to use, much light of course.
- My lamp stopped suddenly at the end of 6:00.I had not programmed well (or I made an error somewhere and reset the programmation perhaps) the Maxflex driver. It still remained + 6,8V in the accumulator. Also, it is necessary well to program Maxflex.I will test:
Vcut = 6 or 6,1V
Vlow = 6.6
Vmed = 7.1
Alarm = 30s
The PCB that I installed on my batteries cuts off to nearly 6V (http://www.batteryjunction.com/pcbfor7li181.html)
Anyway, always have a second lamp for the security.

- Also, perhaps put an average optics on one of the LEDs of the wide light (the left one of the four front wide LED, near the Super output SSC) by testing several angles:60° at 30°.For that, install the driver Super output SSC vertically on the side of the case, and lower the LED to have the place to install this additional optics.

- The spot is 14°. May be for my next lamp I will built, I'll try to put one more narrow (10° - 8° ?). But the one install is also good, and my friend who have a Scurion 1500 was impressed by the power. The new Cree XM-L U2 was more power now. 1040 lumens max.

-The total weight was not a problem for this time. How to do to have less weight with so much lumens ? Helmet + battery 2s2p + battery box + headlamp = 850g exactly.

- I use some time the maximum of the light: + 3000 lumens. It was a cave (aven = -120m) some time with big volume, so it was very comfortable to have much light from time to time.

- The battery box is big. Not a problem this time, but in very narrow cave ? There is a speleologist in France who built and sale specific box for Li-ion 2s2p battery: http://lists.1777.fr/private/light/attachments/20121019/e850af97/attachment-0003.pdf. May be it's the solution.
I could put inside a connection that I manufactured to join two batteries together very quickly, just to re-engage the PCB of a battery whose PCB would have been cut after a large blow of spot. You can see it on my Picasa album https://picasaweb.google.com/112252570996929488658/MaPremiereLampeSpeleoMaison#5838482558203655090.
Explication:
When you give a large blow of spot, the tension of the battery can go down below the Vcut from the PCB. But goes up immediately after the stop of the spot. But even the PCB cut off the supply of the battery, it remains nevertheless sufficient tension in the battery to still hold an hour at least with the lower grade of Maxflex (70mA). It is necessary to re-engage the PCB by uniting two batteries (+avec+ and - with-).

@ihrc
Welcome
You have a private list in france at this adress: http://lists.1777.fr/listinfo/light specific for speleologist who want to built their caving lamp. Of course in french, but more of them understand and speak a little english like me. You can be registered and ask all questions, or bring your experiment like in this forum. But it's not a forum, for the moment...

A plitaw
Etienne


----------



## TheLoneRanger (Feb 2, 2013)

Wow, I'm new to flashlights (just been doing a lot of research before buying my first light). I had no idea people build their own headlamps. Do these come as kits, or do you just have a working knowledge of electronics?


----------



## majoetetaa07 (Feb 3, 2013)

Hi TheLoneRanger.

Personally, I have only very little knowledge in electronics.
I followed a plan whose link is on my first post: http://speleoclpa.free.fr/boitaoutil...rojet_2012.htm
I can try to translate this page into English if you want. But I believe that my english is a catastrophe.

All electronic components can be bought on the net. If you can weld (souder ?), built this light is very simply. See this link.

This lamp can be simplified, with only four Cree XM-L U2 and 1 driver Maxflex, by putting 2 LEDs for the wide, and 2 LEDs for spots with differente angles, like 36° and 12°. All LEDs in serial of course. In this configuration, you have max 2100 lumens, but you can take a smaller box.

Here an outline of home-made cavelight.


----------



## Changchung (Feb 14, 2013)

I like your light... Very well done... Congrats...


Sent from my phone with camera with flash and internet on it...


----------



## outer limits (Mar 1, 2013)

Hi majoetetaa07. Your English is better that my French so well done. Thanks for some of those sites, good on google translate which made it possible for me to read them, interesting. The main problem I see is still the switch, the covers do not seem to last long. I have done some changes to mining lights and they worked well as I just changed over the insides. I have 4 to 5 others in my family that go caving as well so money on gear is always tight. I only cave on one led at 350mA. With that much light do you take photos? I have made several bigger lights for doing some video work but still with only 2 LEDs but at 3A


----------



## majoetetaa07 (Mar 3, 2013)

Indeed, the switch is one of the weak points of a spéléologique lamp.
If you have place, it is preferable to use pressure switch.But that takes up more space (two switches) if one wants to manage a spot and a wide separately.
Perhaps a solution consists in protecting the cover with a heat-shrinkable sleeve ? I will try that.
For photography, having 3000 lumens is an advantage. You don't need to have an additional lamp. Yo may be careful not to use the spot with full power too long. My spot is drive at 3A at full power. But the recommandations of CREE is to drive the LED at 1/2 of the max power. If not,the LED overheats and its lifetime is strongly reduced.
For a XM-L U2, the best is 1,5A for a prolonged use with a max of lumens. CREE recommends 700mA for a normal use (middle power).

To have many lumens without having this risk, it necessary to multiply LEDs. That take more place and more dollars !! It's my headlamp !

I will build a new lamp for a friend who work in speleology with teenagers.
Max power = nearly 450 lumens
Battery = 3,7V
The less expensive and the more easier to build as possible.
I put the diagram on my Picasa album at https://picasaweb.google.com/112252570996929488658/LaNipharledIVArdechoise#5850878756423685138

Price: nearly 115$ all components (lamp box 50x45x31 + battery box + 4 Li-ion battery 3,7V 5200 mAh).
Off course, with a big speleologist family, it still a little expensive :sick2:.

But you can also use 4 Nimh battery if you want. The price only for the headlamp is about 65$.


----------



## Changchung (Mar 4, 2013)

majoetetaa07 said:


> Indeed, the switch is one of the weak points of a spéléologique lamp.
> If you have place, it is preferable to use pressure switch.But that takes up more space (two switches) if one wants to manage a spot and a wide separately.
> Perhaps a solution consists in protecting the cover with a heat-shrinkable sleeve ? I will try that.
> For photography, having 3000 lumens is an advantage. You don't need to have an additional lamp. Yo may be careful not to use the spot with full power too long. My spot is drive at 3A at full power. But the recommandations of CREE is to drive the LED at 1/2 off the max power. If not,the LED overheats and its lifetime is strongly reduced.
> ...



Why this kind of switch if the Led driver change patterns turn it off and on?


----------



## majoetetaa07 (Mar 4, 2013)

Some drivers change the power if a tension temporarily is sent. It is the case of Taskled driver, Lflex or Maxflex for example, much use in the construction of elaborate caving lamp (George update the program of the drivers Lflex and Maxflex at the request of the French speleologist which use them must).
But the driver used in the configuration of my last post (7145) changes power when the supply is briefly cut off with the switch, by doing off-on.
I don't find that very practical.

So I looked for a switch which enable me to cut off the supply with the temporarily fonction and to make pass the various levels of power with simple "clic" (temporary position), rather than by handling the switch by putting it in off then on.
In short: Clic(5%)-clic(30%)-clic(100%) is easier than off-on(5%)-off-on(30%)-off-on(100%).
Of course, you easily find pressure switch on-off (on-(on)). But to turn off the lamp, you must install a second switch with the function on-off. In a small case (50x45x31cm), that takes too much place.


----------



## majoetetaa07 (Mar 10, 2013)

The new caving lamp: https://picasaweb.google.com/112252570996929488658/LIbieled#5853440572380815394

Driver KD 7135*4, 1520mA max
5mA - 35% - 100%
Two XP-G R5 in //
Switch off/on/mom
Box: 50x50x30

Simple, less expensive.: Cool:


----------



## ian1210 (Mar 11, 2013)

Hi Etienne,

Your posts, along with many others, have inspired me to build my own cave-light! Knowing that people who have little electronic experience are regularly building their lamps is quite reassuring. I have a medium amount of electronic background.

I was considering using 2 of these switches (one for spot and one for flood) with 2 LFlex drivers. http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/MP0037/2/708-1304-ND/1626069 Do you think these switches would work well? Thank you, and nice work!

Ian


----------



## majoetetaa07 (Mar 11, 2013)

ian1210 said:


> Hi Etienne,
> 
> Your posts, along with many others, have inspired me to build my own cave-light! Knowing that people who have little electronic experience are regularly building their lamps is quite reassuring. I have a medium amount of electronic background.
> 
> ...



Hi Ian.

J'édite ma réponse car je me suis trompé.
Cet interrupteur peut fonctionner avec le Lflex.
La seule mise en garde concerne le "current rating" (1A), un peu faible à mon avis.

I edit my answer because I made a mistake.
This switch can work with the Lflex.
The only warning relates to is the current rating (1A), a little weak in my opinion.
IP68, but better to put it under the box, or put à cap on it, not for the water or moisture, but because of calcite dust.
Or, it must be drowned in Sikaflex (flexive) for example. It is very effective.

You can also take a toogle switch (mom-off-mom), that will allow you to manage both driver Lflex with only one switch. That take less place.

A plitaw
Etienne


----------



## majoetetaa07 (Mar 12, 2013)

To Ian

Lflex ==> Imax = 500mA to 3500mA
XM-L U2 = 3000mA max.
But the best is to drive the XM-L no more that 1/2 of Imax.

Two XM-L in // at 3500mA = 1750mA for each LED. And a max of lumens. More than one XM-L with 3000mA I think.

So if you have the place:
Two XM-L U2 for the wide, one for the spot (that you can drive at 3A sometime, but not too long)
+ 10$, it is acceptable.

I have a Excel (Excel 2010) file to calculate the assemblage of LED in a lamp (in french but it is easy to understand). I will send it to you by PM if I can. Or you can download it here: https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B8cEfsVi2hfURS1XMHRJSTJvWjg/edit?pli=1 (macro in it, but without virus).

With Lflex, the best mode that french spéléologue use is the UIB2 (five levels, "clic" to go up, "push" to go down).


----------



## ian1210 (Mar 13, 2013)

Thank you! I have modified my design to incorporate 2 XM-L2's in parallel instead of 1. You're help is greatly appreciated! When I complete the build I will post my results.


----------



## majoetetaa07 (Mar 17, 2013)

For Ian

An example to simplify the wiring of the Lflex driver.
https://picasaweb.google.com/112252570996929488658/MontageDriverTaskled#5856254006640503202

The advantage is to remove a welding on the driver, and to reduce the size of the wire going on the +, this one being use only to supply the driver and collect the power level.


----------



## majoetetaa07 (Mar 23, 2013)

Un site de réalisation personnel plutôt cool.
https://picasaweb.google.com/115891523431950899835/VigLights?noredirect=1#


----------



## majoetetaa07 (Apr 15, 2013)

The futur box of my caving headlamp.
It is a Community project of the French speleologists which will come out in May.
Nearly $25 for the box only.

https://picasaweb.google.com/112252570996929488658/ProjetBoitierLampe1777


----------



## ian1210 (Apr 20, 2013)

Wow that box looks amazing! Is there any way I can purchase a few of them?


----------



## majoetetaa07 (Apr 21, 2013)

ian1210 said:


> Wow that box looks amazing! Is there any way I can purchase a few of them?



I think you can .
Normally, the case should be made for may 15th for the 50è birthday of the french speleology fédération, because lot of us will go there at Millau and we will recover the cases at this time there. But it is not certain.
Tell me how much box you want, because the number of box manufactured will be exactly that amongst ordered cases.

I order for me 4 box. We must pay in advance the order. That's not a problem for me, if you want I'll pay your order and I will sent you your cases that you will can pay after to me with Paypal for example. : ATTENTION: The shipping costs will have to be added, and it is a little expensive between France and US (30.30$ for 500g, the same price for 100g or 1000g). So it's not a good idea for only one case.

The box will be surely anodised (the color was not decided yet).
You will can also take a glass (we try to build one for no more than $4 each),or built it yourself like you want. I have enough plexiglass (PMMA) at home to make 25 glass, but I will certainly take two port-hole per box.

I will forward you the exact price when it is decided. The more there will be box ordered, the less it should be expensive.

You can see the number of box ordered here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AgZ263ygSAGcdElJLUYyazNURFJaWG80cXgwMl9KN2c#gid=1
In this list, you have my mail adress (Etienne).


----------



## ian1210 (Apr 25, 2013)

Thanks so much for the offer! I've emailed you so we can get all the details squared away


----------



## fist (Apr 26, 2013)

Hi majoetetaa07
I'm an italian caver, sorry for my poor english. I'm also very interested in your project 1777
I have some question:
- The red grip on the side is a switch or only for rotate the case?
- How many separate switch can be mounted on the case? If the two side hole are for the hinge of the case and the bottom hole is for the wire, where is the switch position?
- In your google docs you mentioned support led internal and external, what is the difference?
thanks for the information
I am very happy to have found this thread


----------



## majoetetaa07 (May 5, 2013)

The project is in progress.
But changes are requested by some of us for a few important details, such as the depth of the housing to get more thing (LEDs, drivers, switches, optical lens ...).

The new designs are on my Picasa page:
https://picasaweb.google.com/112252570996929488658/ProjetBoitierLampe1777#5874556636147527250

This will take a little longer than expected, but it is the case of many projects.
Especially we should try to agree a thirty person. But it still well ahead.


----------



## smokinbasser (May 5, 2013)

Nice Job! I still have a Coleman single mantle light with both a bale and a handle that got a lot of cave time many moons ago while in the Boy Scouts. We extinguished our lights too, cave dark is another level of dark.


----------



## SemiMan (May 6, 2013)

I did some cave exploring this summer at Mammoth cave and had the opportunity to try out several different color temp/light qualities from LEDs. I have a thread on it but can't seem to find it. I found the cool white somewhat flat, and as well warm white somewhat flat. I had a high CRI, 4000K light and found that to be amazing for bringing out all the colors.

Semiman


----------



## majoetetaa07 (Jun 1, 2013)

Thank you for your feedback SemiMan.


The choice of the color of the LED is very personal, but you're right for caving, it is better to have a light that is not too cold, to bring out the best colors of the cave.

The project is progressing slower than expected, and this is normal. There are many things to develop to get everyone to agree.


We are now making correct drawings for machinist with usable dimensions.
The housing must be machined with a 5-axis milling to a minimum.

The price should be higher than the first estimate. Because we seek the challenge with an original form.


To be continued ...


----------



## Philip2 (Jun 7, 2013)

IMO time is money. Why don't you mount one or two very bright handheld type diving flashlights left and right to a helmet? IMO that will give more quality and safety, water resistancy, shock resistancy etc, than a home made headlight, with all the respect for your technical skills. 

Fenix sells a headband with adjustable angle.

In caves I would carry a backup waterproof military style angle light on your body, in case you lose your helmet.


----------



## uk_caver (Jun 7, 2013)

Well, side-mounts on a helmet (even one small side mount) do take up space, and they also cast annoying shadows if only using one at once.
For side mounting when people do use them, such as to attach a backup torch, it's pretty universal to use cable ties or shockcord - an elastic headband would not really be much use, since for a start it would need attaching to the helmet to prevent it sliding off.

Personally, I made my own caving light, and it gives the beam shapes I want (centre-weighted flood and good spot with downspill), and the power levels (and hence beam blends) that I want, all running off a single switch.
It has full redundancy in the electronics, having a completely separate driver per LED _and_ redundancy within each driver.
The electronics are potted in epoxy so even if the waterproof ex-mining lamp headset does leak, it doesn't cause any issues other than possible (fixable) corrosion in the very long term.
The headset is openable without tools, and amenable to field repairs with a penknife (connections inside are via screw terminals and the switch can be completely dismantled and reassembled). the front lens is thick glass which can take a huge amount of abuse before even showing a scratch.
The switch is only for mode control, not power supply to the electronics, and the drivers will operate on most settings with the switch open, so even in the case of a bizarre complete switch failure I could still open the headset, kick the light into most settings and get it to work.
Power supply is via a thick and highly durable cable, from a battery box known to be mechanically tough, and in which I can use a variety of primary and rechargeable cells/battery packs.
The light is fully regulated, dropping out of regulation fairly close to battery exhaustion, giving a graceful tail-off which gives plenty of time to change batteries, though it is very rare that it needs changing mid-trip.

The great thing about building your own light is that you can make it do what you want, as well as getting satisfaction out of it wherever you use it.


----------



## Philip2 (Jun 7, 2013)

uk_caver said:


> Well, side-mounts on a helmet (even one small side mount) do take up space, and they also cast annoying shadows if only using one at once.


I think two tubular flashlights, mounted on each side of the helmet, offer the option to reduce shadows in comparison to a single headlight. And if one of them brakes down or runs down on batteries, you still have the other as a backup. A second flashlight contains spare batteries.


----------



## uk_caver (Jun 10, 2013)

Philip2 said:


> I think two tubular flashlights, mounted on each side of the helmet, offer the option to reduce shadows in comparison to a single headlight.
> And if one of them brakes down or runs down on batteries, you still have the other as a backup. A second flashlight contains spare batteries.


I'm thinking about shadows cast by my head/helmet if only using one side-mount light at once.

If I was going to use two sidemount flashlights at the same time to avoid shadows, then neither would contain truly 'spare' batteries.


----------



## majoetetaa07 (Jun 10, 2013)

uk_caver said:


> Well, side-mounts on a helmet (even one small side mount) do take up space, and they also cast annoying shadows if only using one at once.
> For side mounting when people do use them, such as to attach a backup torch, it's pretty universal to use cable ties or shockcord - an elastic headband would not really be much use, since for a start it would need attaching to the helmet to prevent it sliding off.
> 
> Personally, I made my own caving light, and it gives the beam shapes I want (centre-weighted flood and good spot with downspill), and the power levels (and hence beam blends) that I want, all running off a single switch.
> ...



+1


----------



## majoetetaa07 (Jun 10, 2013)

uk_caver said:


> I'm thinking about shadows cast by my head/helmet if only using one side-mount light at once.
> 
> If I was going to use two sidemount flashlights at the same time to avoid shadows, then neither would contain truly 'spare' batteries.



+1


----------



## majoetetaa07 (Jun 10, 2013)

Sans compter la faible autonomie de la plupart des lampes vendues sur le marché, pour un rapport encombrement/puissance lumineuse très faible.

Et dans les grottes où je pratique la spéléologie, je passe souvent par des passages très étroits, et un casque avec deux lampes latérales serait très souvent gênant.

Avec ma petite lampe que j'ai fabriquée avec 50€, je tiens 7h30 à 500 lumens avec 3x18650 

A plitaw


----------



## Philip2 (Jun 10, 2013)

majoetetaa07 said:


> Sans compter la faible autonomie de la plupart des lampes vendues sur le marché, pour un rapport encombrement/puissance lumineuse très faible.
> 
> Et dans les grottes où je pratique la spéléologie, je passe souvent par des passages très étroits, et un casque avec deux lampes latérales serait très souvent gênant.
> 
> ...


Fine if it works for you and I respect your craftsmanship and ingenuity in building such a headlight. 

But if an underground passage is that extremely narrow, I wouldn't consider it safe enough to pass. 

If you would get a medical emergency in such a narrow passage, you could block the exit for your team members. And rescuers should be able to locate you and get you out within a safe time span.


----------



## Philip2 (Jun 10, 2013)

uk_caver said:


> I'm thinking about shadows cast by my head/helmet if only using one side-mount light at once.
> 
> If I was going to use two sidemount flashlights at the same time to avoid shadows, then neither would contain truly 'spare' batteries.


That is true, but it would give you more options to choose from, depending from the situaton. And if one flashlight would crash in a risky situation, you would have the backup flashlight on your helmet immediately operable.


----------



## uk_caver (Jun 11, 2013)

Seriously, having torches on the side of a helmet is distinctly annoying compared to not having them there.
For a while some years ago I had one 2xAA maglite mounted on my helmet as a backup to my main carbide/electric setup, and that was definitely annoying, being prone to catching on things, and was often removed in more awkward caves.

It's not simply a matter of passage being consistently narrow, but having sidemount lights can be awkward in other ways, which is why very few cavers use them as main lights, and why the people who have one as a backup often choose one selected to be small.

If someone isn't a caver, they probably won't succeed in trying to give advice to people who are, however well-meaning the advice is.

Cavers do experiment with all kinds of ideas, and the good ideas tend to stick and get passed around.
The idea of using multiple flashlights as primary lighting is not a widespread one, for various good reasons, with the possible exception of cave _divers_, who have a specific and completely different set of requirements.


----------



## majoetetaa07 (Jun 11, 2013)

The speleological exploration leads very often to go through very narrow passages. Because large volumes are already discovered that behind the pass too close, nobody has dared to cross.
We often use explosives to enlarge these passages. And when necessary, I take off my helmet if it does not go with him.
All French cavers are part of the French Cave Rescue. Those with whom I practice caving are the first who can get me out of a jam for example )


On the other hand, what kind of light do you think to install on a helmet ?
My first lamp I built gives me 3000 lumens in a box 80mm x 50mm, with 4x18650.
What will be the size of flashlights that give me the same power ?
How to adjust the orientation of the light beam ?
How to manage the wide and spot ?


What is the price of your two lamps, and what is their autonomy ?
I have 900 lumens for 7:30. 430 lumens for 17 hours. 80 lumens for 75h! With 2 batteries, I can hold for 6 days.
I can manage 5 or 8 power levels with MaxFlex without the flash mode that is useless and is especially painful in caving.


All that for nearly 220 €!


But I'm still on a small emergency light with me. And I never leaves alone (although ...)


----------



## Philip2 (Jun 11, 2013)

uk_caver said:


> having sidemount lights can be awkward in other ways, which is why very few cavers use them as main lights, and why the people who have one as a backup often choose one selected to be small.
> 
> If someone isn't a caver, they probably won't succeed in trying to give advice to people who are, however well-meaning the advice is.


Thanks for sharing your knowledge.


----------



## Philip2 (Jun 13, 2013)

majoetetaa07 said:


> The speleological exploration leads very often to go through very narrow passages. Because large volumes are already discovered that behind the pass too close, nobody has dared to cross. We often use explosives to enlarge these passages. And when necessary, I take off my helmet if it does not go with him. All French cavers are part of the French Cave Rescue. Those with whom I practice caving are the first who can get me out of a jam for example )


Use of explosives could block your exit in a narrow tunnel, even if it is done with great professional expertise, apart from the risk of earth quakes, technical failures, medical incidents, human errors, etc. 

What is the chance of dying by a caving accident per year of professional caving, under these circumstances? Has that been studied? Is the adrenalin kick really worth that risk, for you and your loved ones? 



majoetetaa07 said:


> My first lamp I built gives me 3000 lumens in a box 80mm x 50mm, with 4x18650. I have 900 lumens for 7:30. 430 lumens for 17 hours. 80 lumens for 75h! With 2 batteries, I can hold for 6 days. I can manage 5 or 8 power levels with MaxFlex without the flash mode that is useless and is especially painful in caving. All that for nearly 220 €! But I'm still on a small emergency light with me. And I never leaves alone (although ...)


I would even suggest carrying two small backup lights and a small survival kit, tied to your body, considering the high risks and extremely challenging circumstances. 

Could you, as a professional group, ask manufacturers abroad to build a caving light, that meets your specifications, for a reasonable price?


----------



## uk_caver (Jun 13, 2013)

Philip,
Some of this is getting rather off-topic for a thread about a caving *light*.

If you feel a need to tell cavers what they should and shouldn't be doing, or to suggest that there are many things they have thought about less well or less often than you have, there really are more appropriate forums than this one to try and do that on.

Regarding asking manufacturers to make lights, you seem rather stuck on the idea of a pure time/cost tradeoff, but that really isn't the point.
People like making things themselves, and it's entirely up to them to judge what (if any) nominal cost to place on their own time and what value to place on the things they do with it.

I spent a serious amount of time on the first decent light I built, developing the software on a far-from perfect system (no debugger, MCU traditional EPROM rather than flash), but even if I'd just ended up making one light for me to use rather than turning it into a 'paying hobby', it would _still_ have been worthwhile.


----------



## Philip2 (Jun 13, 2013)

uk_caver said:


> Some of this is getting rather off-topic for a thread about a caving *light*.


True, so I kept it concise.



uk_caver said:


> If you feel a need to tell cavers what they should and shouldn't be doing, or to suggest that there are many things they have thought about less well or less often than you have, there really are more appropriate forums than this one to try and do that on.


Sorry, I don't mean to offend anybody's feelings. But I have tried to give some constructive criticism in a respectful way, since somebody opened an interesting topic on this forum that I like and am registered to. And I appreciate to express my feelings and ideas about this topic, without claiming to have a better perspective than professional caving experts. 



uk_caver said:


> Regarding asking manufacturers to make lights, you seem rather stuck on the idea of a pure time/cost tradeoff, but that really isn't the point. People like making things themselves, and it's entirely up to them to judge what (if any) nominal cost to place on their own time and what value to place on the things they do with it.


If that is your personal preference, you should keep doing that. I was interested to read about it. And I quite understand the advantages and pleasures in doing so. But people differ in their perspective. Maybe some people find my different and sometimes challenging opinions worth reading or even inspiring. 



uk_caver said:


> I spent a serious amount of time on the first decent light I built, developing the software on a far-from perfect system (no debugger, MCU traditional EPROM rather than flash), but even if I'd just ended up making one light for me to use rather than turning it into a 'paying hobby', it would _still_ have been worthwhile.


Shure, if that is your personal choice I applaude that. I suggest that we try to tolerate each other's opinions and our personal differences, in exchanging perspectives.


----------



## majoetetaa07 (Jun 13, 2013)

Philip2 said:


> Use of explosives could block your exit in a narrow tunnel, even if it is done with great professional expertise, apart from the risk of earth quakes, technical failures, medical incidents, human errors, etc.
> 
> What is the chance of dying by a caving accident per year of professional caving, under these circumstances? Has that been studied? Is the adrenalin kick really worth that risk, for you and your loved ones?



Philip2, ce n'est pas tellement le lieu pour parler de l'utilisation d'explosif en spéléologie. Juste pour répondre: si nous utilisons de l'explosif depuis des années en prospection, c'est que nous savons nous en servir.
On ne fait jamais exploser une étroiture après être passé  mais justement pour pouvoir passer. On ne risque donc pas de rester coincé derrière.
Lors de l'explosion, nous sommes soit très loin, soit en dehors de la grotte, pour 2 raisons: les gaz d'explosion (monoxyde de carbone), et le souffle de l'explosion.
Cependant, toute proportion gardée, il y a moins de risque d'accident en exploration spéléologique que de prendre sa voiture le matin pour aller travailler (deux accidents en france depuis 1999 du aux explosifs).



Philip2 said:


> I would even suggest carrying two small backup lights and a small survival kit, tied to your body, considering the high risks and extremely challenging circumstances.
> 
> Could you, as a professional group, ask manufacturers abroad to build a caving light, that meets your specifications, for a reasonable price?



Il existe une offre de plus en plus abondante de lampes fabriquées par des professionnels ou semi-professionnels sur le marché. La lampe la moins cher pour le moment est a plus de $460.
Avec un driver chinois à $2, qui a un mode stroboscopique qui ne sert à rien en spéléologie.

Deux raisons pour le faire soit même:
1 - faire une lampe aussi performante ou beaucoup plus performante que celles proposées sur le marché (Scurion = de $630 à $1240).
2 - Se faire plaisir à le faire soit même, c'est aussi le sujet de ce topic.

Quand aux lampes installées sur le côté du casque, je ne connais aucun spéléologue digne de ce nom utilisant cette méthode (en tout cas en france). Sauf les spéléologues plongeurs, mais pour d'autres raisons. Même pour ceux là, il existe maitenant des lampes pour la plongée spéléologique comme les scurions qui remplacent les lampes torches.


----------



## uk_caver (Jun 13, 2013)

Philip,
If you don't see the point in someone making their own light, then (if you become a caver), simply buy a light like most cavers do.

I'm certainly not suggesting that everyone should make their own light, or that everyone with the appropriate skills should make their own light.
Hardly any of my my caving friends make their own lights, and in fact most of my close caving friends (and quite a few other people) pay me to make light units for them which suits me fine, but I'd still encourage people to try DIY if they showed an interest.

As for trying to get people together to ask a manufacturer to make lights, people vary greatly in what they want, and trying to get a consistent collective opinion is a task fraught with difficulty.
I've spent a lot of time talking to people about lights, and if I ask 5 cavers I'll likely get 5 different opinions.
Hell, if I listen to one caver for long enough I'll often end up hearing a set of requirements which are mutually exclusive.

Also, it's a niche market with some existing products supplying it, and for high-end lights in likely limited volume productions it's not clear that there are suitable production methods which would be cheaper than those already being used by existing players - high-end lights tend to have machined metal housings, and apart maybe from circuit boards, are essentially hand-built.


----------



## majoetetaa07 (Jun 13, 2013)

Je suis entièrement d'accord.

Les lampes de spéléologie fabriquées actuellement sont de très bonne qualité pour la plupart. Le marché est tout petit, et le prix est certainement justifié. Pour ceux qui ont les moyens de les acheter, tant mieux.

Je n'ai pas envie pour ma part de mettre $1000 dans une simple lampe, quelque soit la qualité de celle-ci.

Je me suis donc fabriqué ma première lampe, dont je suis entièrement satisfait, pour moins de $300. Elle éclaire bien mieux que la plus puissante des lampes sur le marché. Même si elle n'est pas parfaite.

Et j'ai appris beaucoup en la fabriquant, et j'aime partager ce que les autres m'ont appris.

Ce topic est là pour expliquer que quelques spéléologues français, fabriquant leur propre lampe, ont envie de prouver qu'ils peuvent se mettre en commun pour réaliser un projet intéressant: Fabriquer un boîtier qui corresponde à un compromis, pour que chacun puisse l'utiliser comme il le veut, en mettant dedans les LEDs qu'il veut, le driver qu'il veut...

Un boîtier Hammon est déjà à $20
Alors si nous parvenons à fabriquer un boîtier usiné pour moins de $40, ce sera déjà une grande victoire.

Depuis que j'en ai parlé ici, il y a déjà plusieurs personnes dans le monde entier (USA, Nouvelle-Zelande, Italie...) intéressées par le projet et qui attendent que celui-ci aboutisse.

Et ça me plait.

I agree completely.

Caving lamps now made ​​have very good quality for most. The market is small, and the price is certainly justified. For those who can afford to buy them, OK.

I didn't want for me to put $ 1,000 in a single lamp, whatever the quality of it.

So I made ​​my first lamp, which I am completely satisfied, for less than $ 300. It illuminates better than the most powerful lamps on the market. Although it is not perfect, although it is not so beautiful.

And I learned a lot from the manufacturer, and I love sharing what others have taught me.

This topic is here to explain some French cavers, producing their own lamp, want to prove they can put together to make an interesting project: Making a case which corresponds to a compromise that everyone can use as he wants, with the LEDs inside he wants, the driver he wants... And very effective for cooling.

A Hammon housing is already at $ 20.
So if we can make a lamp housing to less than $ 40, it will already be a great victory.

Since I mentioned here, there are already many people around the world (USA, New Zealand, Italy ...) interested in the project and expect it to succeed. We should succeed with this project, I hope.

And I like that.

Many small details need to be resolved, and it is actually not easy to get everyone to agree.
We are currently discussing the system unit mounting on the helmet.
https://picasaweb.google.com/112252570996929488658/DernierPlansBoitier1777#5888722914155760130
The lamp housing must be as close to the helmet, and must be rotated 90 ° down. And support easily achievable by a handyman as Philip2 ...
If you have any ideas, we will taker


----------



## enneitetaa07 (Jul 7, 2015)

Hello everybody !
Since my last visit, the project has evolved. He remained on stand-by for several months before being reactivated by a Canadian spéléologue who wanted to know where to find this lamp housing for caving.

Well I can finally announce that this project is now completed. These box are machined and anodized ready to be delivered to all those who participated in its financing. I present the 1777.







The boxes will be delivered with the elements that everyone has commanded, as this project allow everyone to choose the different component parts. Gland, glass with joint ring, switch, driver ...
The starting price was a bit optimistic, he was finally set at 54 € with a glass and O-ring ($ 59). There is no benefit from the sale, all the work of the designers was totally voluntary. This is the contribution of each of the buyers, who paid in advance, which allowed to start construction.
Now everyone will be free to build his lamp as he wants, the case has been designed as universal. So we can do it with the choice:


LED we want either // (3.7V) or in series (7.4V). To give you an idea of the dimensions:




The size of the box allows you to enter an optical ø32mm. And with LED boards, it will be better.


The driver you want. It should be noted that many have chosen to be supplied with the driver of dualflex Taskled, the latter having been designed by George through a schedule of charges of caving list http://lists.1777.fr/listinfo
Pressure switch, piezo, toggle switch, the locations being provided for each of these switches. A rocker switch as that of Scurion has even been designed and is being manufactured. You can see the bottom of the first picture the decks with the two mini-switches designed to be housed in the 1777 case.




Attachment to the helmet shall be made either with a hinge adjustable friction Pinet



either with a gopro designed and machined hinge specifically for this box, which will also use this spéléo lamp for VTT or any other activity.







The case weighs 88g.
Je pense que dans peu de temps, je pourrai vous montrer les première réalisations. A suivre.
D'autres photo sur mon album picasa: https://picasaweb.google.com/112252570996929488658/ProjetCollaboratifBoitierLampeSpeleo1777#


----------



## enneitetaa07 (Feb 13, 2016)

Hello.
The French cavers are happy to announce the first achievements of 1777.


They are visible at this address: http: //souterweb.free.fr/boitaoutils/eclairage/Nipharled%20IV/album_photos_1777.htm


I have not started building my own, but it's very soon. I hope.
I'll probably build one for 3.6V batteries for autonomy, and a 7.2V for power.


Based on a Taskled Dualflex (Special caving)
In 7.2V, I chose the Cree XHP50 J4 for the spot (with Gaggione LLC07N) and I hesitate between 2 XP-L V6 in series (2200 lumens max at 3A, which is already a lot), or two XHP70 in parallel (can go up to 3400 lumens at 3.5A).
In 3.6V, I think putting Cree XP-L V6 spot, and perhaps XM-L U2 wide or XP-L, I don't no yet.

A suivre...


----------



## enneitetaa07 (Feb 14, 2016)

enneitetaa07 said:


> Hello.
> The French cavers are happy to announce the first achievements of 1777.
> 
> 
> They are visible at this address: http: //souterweb.free.fr/boitaoutils/eclairage/Nipharled%20IV/album_photos_1777.htm


It's better with the good link :ironic:

http://souterweb.free.fr/boitaoutils/eclairage/Nipharled%20IV/album_photos_1777.htm


----------

