# Next Generation 14W Solarc @ 1000+L /// now with a Group Buy



## Flipside (Aug 29, 2008)

*Next Generation 14W Solarc @ 1000+L*

In speaking with Welch Allyn today, I learned they're brining out a new 'Next Generation' Solarc that'll run in regulation from 9-16V and crank out up to 14W OR 1000+L. I wonder how long it'll be till we find this in some flashlights :naughty: ?


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## BVH (Aug 29, 2008)

*Re: Next Generation 14W Solarc*

It would be great if they would at least bring the color temp down to 5000. A guestimate of 700 bulb Lumens @ 14 Watts. That would be a nice package


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## Flipside (Aug 29, 2008)

*Re: Next Generation 14W Solarc*



BVH said:


> It would be great if they would at least bring the color temp down to 5000. A guestimate of 700 bulb Lumens @ 14 Watts. That would be a nice package


 
WA is claiming '1000+' lumens on their promo sheets - NOW ADDED to the OP.


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## LuxLuthor (Aug 29, 2008)

*Re: Next Generation 14W Solarc @ 1000+L*

The $400 price caught my attention. 

Be good to get Mac's read on this item.


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## Flipside (Aug 29, 2008)

*Re: Next Generation 14W Solarc @ 1000+L*

The $400 is for the developer's kit... The Ballast (not yet listed on their site) will go for $65, and the bulbs run about $90...


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## PhantomPhoton (Aug 29, 2008)

*Re: Next Generation 14W Solarc @ 1000+L*

Very interesting. ~70lumens per watt is a bit nicer than the old solarcs at ~50.
I'm also wishing for a lower color temp, but hey if it fits into a [email protected] I think I can live with it.


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## BVH (Aug 29, 2008)

*Re: Next Generation 14W Solarc @ 1000+L*

Same ol 6900K temp when driven with 14 Watts. Darn! WOW! 13,700K when driven with 9 Watts. Of what use would that be? I wonder what their market is for these?


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## SafetyBob (Aug 31, 2008)

*Re: Next Generation 14W Solarc @ 1000+L*

Could we use the bulb in a FM reflector (OK, it doesn't matter who at this time)? Just do you think it will work or should one really try and make their reflectors work since that one is really, really narrow......hopefully offering incredible throw. 

Is it as easy as buy a bulb and a ballast and start assembling? Aluminum reflector also.....

I would really like to hear what you guys who have examined this before think about fitting this into a [email protected], or should we be thinking about breaking out the metal lathe and start turning....

Bob E.


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## vcw (Aug 31, 2008)

*Re: Next Generation 14W Solarc @ 1000+L*



Flipside said:


> In speaking with Welch Allyn today, I learned they're brining out a new 'Next Generation' Solarc that'll run in regulation from 9-16V and crank out up to 14W OR 1000+L. I wonder how long it'll be till we find this in some flashlights :naughty: ?


How bout this:
http://cgi.ebay.com/G-P-35W-HID-350...6518854QQcmdZViewItem?_trksid=p3286.m20.l1116


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## SafetyBob (Aug 31, 2008)

*Re: Next Generation 14W Solarc @ 1000+L*

That e-bay setup looks very interesting. Probably the over runs that were available after the OEM made an order a while back. 

If it actually puts out 35 watts of power, then that would be a winner. I suspect it doesn't, but for 108 bucks right now, it would certainly be a player. Wouldn't mind trying that setup mainly because it looks rather easy to craft into a [email protected]. 

Bob E.


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## Tessaiga (Sep 1, 2008)

*Re: Next Generation 14W Solarc @ 1000+L*



SafetyBob said:


> That e-bay setup looks very interesting. Probably the over runs that were available after the OEM made an order a while back.
> 
> If it actually puts out 35 watts of power, then that would be a winner. I suspect it doesn't, but for 108 bucks right now, it would certainly be a player. Wouldn't mind trying that setup mainly because it looks rather easy to craft into a [email protected]
> 
> Bob E.


 
mmm.... anyone wants to try put one in a Mag and slap on some power with a FM 3 X 17670 batt?? Could be a potential runaway winner...

Anyone knows the diameter of that setup and if it will even fit into a Mag in the first place... :laughing:


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## Patriot (Sep 1, 2008)

*Re: Next Generation 14W Solarc @ 1000+L*

It's a G&P guys which is scary in itself. Also, it's far too large for any mag body.


With regards to the Solarc, that's great news for the custom world. I'm sure it won't be long before Mac has his hands on some of them. Downside of course is the color temperature. I don't understand why it's so difficult to get good 4300K bulbs but there must be some obstacle to it. On the other hand, maybe we're the only part of the world who care or know the difference. :thinking:


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## BVH (Sep 1, 2008)

*Re: Next Generation 14W Solarc @ 1000+L*

Even a 5000K bulb would be fantastic.


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## Patriot (Sep 1, 2008)

*Re: Next Generation 14W Solarc @ 1000+L*



BVH said:


> Even a 5000K bulb would be fantastic.




Good point! I'd be doing back flips for even that. I'd sure like to understand more about why HID bulb manufacturers struggle with this. I'd like to understand if it's a technical challenge, cost issue, or the industry preferred color.


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## Illum (Sep 1, 2008)

*Re: Next Generation 14W Solarc @ 1000+L*



Flipside said:


> I wonder how long it'll be till we find this in some flashlights :naughty: ?



got a solution for a battery pack that yields *90V* and a couple amps to work with?


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## rdh226 (Sep 1, 2008)

*Re: Next Generation 14W Solarc @ 1000+L*



Illum_the_nation said:


> got a solution for a battery pack that yields *90V* and a couple amps to work with?



90V is the ballast-output voltage to sustain the arc. It works with 9.5-15V input.

They (Solarc) measures 5A peak inrush for 1ms (one thousandth of a second),
2(ish)A nominal.

No problem, that's "gentle" in this forum, compared to the various overdriven incans.

-RDH


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## SafetyBob (Sep 1, 2008)

*Re: Next Generation 14W Solarc @ 1000+L*

Flipside, please keep us informed when the ballast and the bulb are available for us to purchase. And like I indicated further up, can the plain old bulb work in a regular aluminum reflector like FM's or Litho's? Or do we need to get one of theirs? 

This could be a very, very good find for all of us looking for a nice easy HID solution to be placed in a [email protected] flashlight. 

Bob E.


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## Patriot (Sep 1, 2008)

*Re: Next Generation 14W Solarc @ 1000+L*



SafetyBob said:


> Flipside, please keep us informed when the ballast and the bulb are available for us to purchase. And like I indicated further up, can the plain old bulb work in a regular aluminum reflector like FM's or Litho's? Or do we need to get one of theirs?
> 
> This could be a very, very good find for all of us looking for a nice easy HID solution to be placed in a [email protected] flashlight.
> 
> Bob E.



The Solarc bulb will work with FM or Lithos reflectors. The only issue has to do with the size of the bulb hole. If the reflector hole is small, it requires the secondary glass envelope to be removed (broken away) from the bulb base. In any case, it makes for a better beam shape imo.


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## RutanD (Sep 2, 2008)

*Re: Next Generation 14W Solarc @ 1000+L*

As a new reader to this thread, you'll have to educate me. Why such a strong desire to keep the color temperature in the 4300K-5000K range? What's the benefit? (I understand 13,000K would be way too blue.) Thanks.


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## Flipside (Sep 2, 2008)

*Re: Next Generation 14W Solarc @ 1000+L*

SafetyBob - will do. 

The OD of the ballast is 1.385 +/- 0.015 which is slightly (0.010) more than the 'original', so it should fit in a D size Mag. Bulbs with (M10N003) and without (M10N004) envelope are available, and fit a standard Mag reflector. 

I've kicked around the idea of a group buy, but would need 100 units of ballast and 100 lamps to hit the first break. These would not be a drop in proposition. One would need to modify the ID of the host to retain the ballast, wire it as needed and configure the power source. 

One aspect of this lamp that has not been available previously is the possibility of a two level light. There are 3 wires on the ballast. One is '-', one is for '+ high' and the last is for '+ low'. I don't know of a switch that is available that could do it all-in-one package and still fit in a Mag, but a toggle could be added to select which power level you want to operate in.


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## BVH (Sep 2, 2008)

*Re: Next Generation 14W Solarc @ 1000+L*

Rutan, any bulb color temp above 4300 ish' causes a loss of lumens - all other conditions remaining identical - same bulb, ballast & power source. Also, higher color temps change our perception of the natural color of objects.


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## SafetyBob (Sep 2, 2008)

*Re: Next Generation 14W Solarc @ 1000+L*

Will start the search for a switch that probably goes as on-off-on, so we will have both levels available.

I know I saw a toogle switch that dropped in the hole of a [email protected] awhile back. Just take a little while to see whats out there.

Bob E.


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## Flipside (Sep 3, 2008)

*Re: Next Generation 14W Solarc @ 1000+L*

The biggest issue that I can see with the multi-mode would be the restrike of the lamp. 'Switching' from one mode to the other on the fly would likely not be a good thing. However, starting up and running in a mode would be fine.


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## Flipside (Sep 3, 2008)

*Re: Next Generation 14W Solarc @ 1000+L*

I've been in touch with Mac, and he's expecting parts to play with sometime this week. Let the games begin!


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## Illum (Sep 3, 2008)

*Re: Next Generation 14W Solarc @ 1000+L*

well gee...

haha, sorry


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## cmacclel (Sep 5, 2008)

*Re: Next Generation 14W Solarc @ 1000+L*



LuxLuthor said:


> The $400 price caught my attention.
> 
> Be good to get Mac's read on this item.


 

I have 5 sets scheduled for deliver today 

Mac


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## karlthev (Sep 5, 2008)

*Re: Next Generation 14W Solarc @ 1000+L*

Now THAT'S a surprise! Can't wait to see what will come out of this!!



Karl


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## Flipside (Sep 6, 2008)

*Re: Next Generation 14W Solarc @ 1000+L*



karlthev said:


> Now THAT'S a surprise! Can't wait to see what will come out of this!!
> 
> 
> 
> Karl


 
Here you go... And they're gone already... Popular stuff these HID's.


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## SafetyBob (Sep 7, 2008)

*Re: Next Generation 14W Solarc @ 1000+L*

Those are beautiful.......

Bob E.


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## cmacclel (Sep 9, 2008)

*Re: Next Generation 14W Solarc @ 1000+L*

These new Ballasts have plastic housings which are no where even close to being round. I had to chuck them in the lathe to get them even sort of round 

Mac


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## Patriot (Sep 9, 2008)

*Re: Next Generation 14W Solarc @ 1000+L*



cmacclel said:


> These new Ballasts have plastic housings which are no where even close to being round. I had to chuck them in the lathe to get them even sort of round
> 
> Mac




That had to be annoying.

Is there any issue with heat transfer with the plastic housing?


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## cmacclel (Sep 16, 2008)

*Re: Next Generation 14W Solarc @ 1000+L*



Flipside said:


> The biggest issue that I can see with the multi-mode would be the restrike of the lamp. 'Switching' from one mode to the other on the fly would likely not be a good thing. However, starting up and running in a mode would be fine.


 

You can switch between modes on the fly, no re-strike needed.

Mac


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## Flipside (Sep 16, 2008)

*Re: Next Generation 14W Solarc @ 1000+L*

Have you figured out how to incorporate a selector function somehow? Might be a nice thing to have in your pocket: increased run time, less light or shorter run time, maximum light.


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## revenger (Sep 25, 2008)

*Re: Next Generation 14W Solarc @ 1000+L*

Hi. I'm a new member from Norway on this forum, I have been a reader for some time now.

I just wonder where I can buy these bulbs and ballast's for a reasonable price. Preferable in a webshop, but anywhere is interesting.

(Sorry for my English, I'm Norwegian)


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## Flipside (Sep 25, 2008)

*Re: Next Generation 14W Solarc @ 1000+L*

Right now, I'm only aware of them being sold directly through the manufacturer. They have a webstore...


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## LuxLuthor (Sep 25, 2008)

*Re: Next Generation 14W Solarc @ 1000+L*



Flipside said:


> The $400 is for the developer's kit... The Ballast (not yet listed on their site) will go for $65, and the bulbs run about $90...



Oh, sorry. What is in the "developer's kit" that jacks up the price to that? I'm not sure what each of these items are, or why you might want them: (When I tried searching for *B10R001 *it just comes back to the same developer kit link). 

2 - B10R001
1 - M10N003 SINGLE ENDED LAMP WITH DOME
1 - M10P003 PARABOLIC LAMP, 6 DEGREE
1 - M10P004 PARABOLIC LAMP, 13 DEGREE
1 - NGX APPLICATION DATA
 Good to know, and read other posts in this thread.


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## Patriot (Sep 25, 2008)

*Re: Next Generation 14W Solarc @ 1000+L*

Since it's not listed by itself yet, perhaps it's necessary to call them. I'm certain Mac knows what the deal is.


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## Flipside (Sep 25, 2008)

*Re: Next Generation 14W Solarc @ 1000+L*

The prices that I mentioned before came from a rep that I spoke with on the phone. They're offering a number of different bulb types (with and without reflector) and one of the reflectorLESS bulbs is available without the glass dome. PN M10N003 has the dome, PN M10N004 DOESN'T HAVE A DOME.

It looks like WA's website doesn't yet list the components individually...:shrug:


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## Flipside (Sep 25, 2008)

*Re: Next Generation 14W Solarc @ 1000+L*

On another note, the 10W ballast uses a different bulb - the M10N001...


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## LuxLuthor (Sep 25, 2008)

*Re: Next Generation 14W Solarc @ 1000+L*

And the two B10R001 in kit are complete ballasts & bulb holders? Wonder how you use the two output levels? I don't see an interface, so it must be the choice of 3 wires?


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## Flipside (Sep 25, 2008)

*Re: Next Generation 14W Solarc @ 1000+L*



LuxLuthor said:


> And the two B10R001 in kit are complete ballasts & bulb holders? Wonder how you use the two output levels? I don't see an interface, so it must be the choice of 3 wires?


 
Lux,

Mac has some of these in the wild now, and he'd be the authority. Apparently, the concentricity of the 14W ballast leaves something to be desired.:thinking: 

Regarding the wiring, there are 3 wires that come out the 'back' of the ballast. Since I don't have a schematic, I'm not sure if you keep one wire as the '-' (call it #3) and then use #1 to '+" for high or #2 to '+' for low, or tie both #1 & #2 to '+' to get high... I dunno... Mac, maybe you can help?

As far as the bulbs go, there's apparently 4 choices for the 14W ballast. the developers kit includes (2) ballasts, and a selection of (3) of the (4) bulb options. Evidently, from what Mac has done, the individual components ARE available a'la carte...

*This is a question for Mac: is there a significant difference betwen the Next Generation 14W system and [your overdriven to 14W] 10W system in your Mag HID mods? What have you found?*
** 
*EDIT: *have come to find out that the new system is brighter and lights faster.


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## Flipside (Oct 7, 2008)

*Re: Next Generation 14W Solarc @ 1000+L*

Group buy on parts available here...


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## Flipside (Oct 9, 2008)

*Re: Next Generation 14W Solarc @ 1000+L*

>Deleted, no longer applicable<


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## NeSSuS-GTE (Oct 14, 2008)

Awesome, Flipside! I'll be in on that GB...

Do we have any further detailed information on what is necessary for implanting these into un-bored Mags? Without it being in my hand, I am a bit fuzzy on what steps might be involved. ([email protected] was too EASY)

Mac said he had to round out the plastic housing. Otherwise it doesn't fit??

This is my first HID project, and I excited about it!!


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## Flipside (Oct 14, 2008)

NeSSuS-GTE said:


> Awesome, Flipside! I'll be in on that GB...
> 
> Do we have any further detailed information on what is necessary for implanting these into un-bored Mags? Without it being in my hand, I am a bit fuzzy on what steps might be involved. ([email protected] was too EASY)
> 
> ...


 
As you can probably understand, this HID mod is not a 'drop in' proposition. 

However, in speaking with the engineers and product managers at WA, one of the reasons for the Next Generation (NGX) product was to eliminate some of the dimensional 'problems' they had. From what I'm *told*, these NGX ballasts have taken care of the problems, and the manufacturing process is much more accurate. We'll have to see what we get and make our own determination.


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## cmacclel (Oct 14, 2008)

Flipside said:


> As you can probably understand, this HID mod is not a 'drop in' proposition.
> 
> However, in speaking with the engineers and product managers at WA, one of the reasons for the Next Generation (NGX) product was to eliminate some of the dimensional 'problems' they had. From what I'm *told*, these NGX ballasts have taken care of the problems, and the manufacturing process is much more accurate. We'll have to see what we get and make our own determination.


 
That is a JOKE. The aluminum ballasts where much more accurately dimensioned. I actually spoke to one of the engineers about this.

Mac


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## Patriot (Oct 14, 2008)

cmacclel said:


> That is a JOKE. The aluminum ballasts where much more accurately dimensioned. I actually spoke to one of the engineers about this.
> 
> Mac






> Mac
> These new Ballasts have plastic housings which are no where even close to being round. I had to chuck them in the lathe to get them even sort of round
> 
> Mac




That's just plain sad...not to mention that I really question the idea of a plastic housing with regards to heat sinking. I honestly don't get their concept at all.


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## cmacclel (Oct 15, 2008)

I'll post pictures sometime this week on how out of round the come.

Mac


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## Flipside (Oct 15, 2008)

cmacclel said:


> That is a JOKE. The aluminum ballasts where much more accurately dimensioned. I actually spoke to one of the engineers about this.
> 
> Mac


 
Mac,

I'll PM you with the contacts from WA that gave me this information that I posted. 

Perhaps not everyone is on the same page, or you received product that was out of spec?

Flipside


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## yellow (Oct 15, 2008)

the old "aluminium" ballasts were simply plastic ones put into a 0.5 mm thick "u" shaped Aluminium housing.
With a bit of force they disassembled

... at least they were perfectly round.


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## cmacclel (Oct 15, 2008)

Flipside said:


> Mac,
> 
> I'll PM you with the contacts from WA that gave me this information that I posted.
> 
> ...


 

10 for 10 piece's where out of round. If I did not true them up slightly and made the bore of the flashlight large enought to accept them as is they would have enough play to rattle around unless epoxied in place. The new ballasts flare out probably 0.025 at the bottom where the wires exit.

Pics to come later.

Mac


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## Flipside (Oct 16, 2008)

cmacclel said:


> Pics to come later.


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## Flipside (Oct 18, 2008)

Flipside said:


>


 
My order arrived, and here are some quick shots:










Mac, from the samples that I rec'd, I think you got a bad batch. My examples are not what you have described.


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## cmacclel (Oct 18, 2008)

Put a caliper a the bottom of the ballast where the wires exit.


Here is what I read on the 5 in front of me.

1.369-1.384
1.362-1.394
1.372-1.387
1.366-1.392
1.373-1.385

Not round!

Mac


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## LuxLuthor (Oct 19, 2008)

cmacclel said:


> Put a caliper a the bottom of the ballast where the wires exit.
> 
> 
> Here is what I read on the 5 in front of me.
> ...



WoW! Pretty amazing given what you expect from WA ! They dropped the QA ball.


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## Flipside (Oct 19, 2008)

cmacclel said:


> Put a caliper a the bottom of the ballast where the wires exit.
> 
> 
> Here is what I read on the 5 in front of me.
> ...


 
Mac,

Per WA's specs, the largest diameter of the ballst is 1.385+/-0.015. Some of your product does not meet that spec, and should have been rejected by their QA. As a customer, you should reject it.

The ballasts that I measured are within spec, and not nearly as egged as yours.

Flipside


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## cmacclel (Oct 19, 2008)

These Ballasts are made probably 1000's at a time. I have no clue how yours would be any different than mine. These last 5 I ordered came in after yours.

Even if they are in spec +/- 0.015 means each ballast must be custom fitted to each body.

Mac


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## cmacclel (Oct 21, 2008)

Pics


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## Patriot (Oct 21, 2008)

cmacclel said:


> Pics




No doubt about it, they're eggy. Maybe just their injection molding tolerances are crappy. Does the plastic shell serve any purpose Mac? Can it be removed? It seems that that it would do much better thermally if the aluminum slug was able to transfer directly to the light.... (question?)


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## cmacclel (Oct 21, 2008)

Patriot36 said:


> No doubt about it, their eggy. Maybe just their injection molding tolerances are crappy. Does the plastic shell serve any purpose Mac? Can it be removed? It seems that that it would do much better thermally if the aluminum slug was able to transfer directly to the light.... (question?)


 
I don't know if these have an aluminum slug and there a bit expensive to dissect 

Mac


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## Patriot (Oct 21, 2008)

cmacclel said:


> there a bit expensive to dissect
> 
> Mac




Understandable ....since you wouldn't want to jack one up. 

Looking at the 2 pictures in post 53, it appeared that the plastic cover would slip or pull right off of the bulb end if some little hooks where placed into the holes in the plastic. Obviously it's not anything that simple. I suppose WA thoroughly tested this configuration and there probably aren't any thermal concerns anyway.


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## BVH (Oct 21, 2008)

Said in the flavor of "Hey! Mikey likes it"...

Hey, Morepower will do it!


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## Morepower! (Oct 22, 2008)

BVH said:


> Said in the flavor of "Hey! Mikey likes it"...
> 
> Hey, Morepower will do it!


 
Sure, why not.......wait.....what did you just put my hand up for ??

As my old saying goes, "if you push anything hard enough, it will fit", though there is no gaurantee it will work afterwards. That is a fair amount to be out of round by, I wouldn't be impressed either! On another note if that ballast will last without any real way to sink heat away it could be capable of more power if a way could be found for better thermal transfer. Just a thought.


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## NeSSuS-GTE (Oct 27, 2008)

*Re: Next Generation 14W Solarc @ 1000+L*



Flipside said:


> Lux,
> 
> Regarding the wiring, there are 3 wires that come out the 'back' of the ballast. Since I don't have a schematic, I'm not sure if you keep one wire as the '-' (call it #3) and then use #1 to '+" for high or #2 to '+' for low, or tie both #1 & #2 to '+' to get high... I dunno... Mac, maybe you can help?



So what was the answer to this??

I have been playing around with it for a couple days and I am stumped.

When I run + to Red and - to Black and Yellow I get a boost in brightness. And then thermal shutdown in 30 secs....

Flipside have you figured this out?


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## cmacclel (Oct 27, 2008)

Red (+)
Black (-)
Yellow (Mode) Ties in with (-) for High

Mac


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## NeSSuS-GTE (Oct 27, 2008)

hehehe... damn fast posting Mac! Thanks!

It was right under my nose of Page 4 of the Datasheet this whole time:


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## Aircraft800 (Jan 15, 2009)

Has anyone incorporated a HI-LOW into a light? Is there a single switch application that can fit into a "D" Mag?


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## cmacclel (Jan 15, 2009)

Aircraft800 said:


> Has anyone incorporated a HI-LOW into a light? Is there a single switch application that can fit into a "D" Mag?



The problem is the low or high is switched with the ground.

Mac


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## Aircraft800 (Jan 15, 2009)

cmacclel said:


> The problem is the low or high is switched with the ground.
> 
> Mac


 
I see that is the problem, I can't seem to find something like a compact dual stage 2 pole switch, where a click would turn it on, and a push would toggle the ground. I'll keep looking.

*EDIT: I can't find anything, going with a dual switch may be the only option, one side switch and one of Mac's Tail switch.*


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## SafetyBob (Jan 15, 2009)

Now that everyone is completely satisfied with these, any chance for another group buy? I would for sure love to pick up one. 

Bob E.


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## Aircraft800 (Jan 18, 2009)

Mac,

Couldn't we just move the on-off switch to a tailswitch, and modify the side switch to ground like this?





It looks like it would work on paper.


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## cmacclel (Jan 18, 2009)

Yes you could use both stages using both the sideswitch and tailswitch. Though it wouold be a little different than the diagram it should work. 

You would have to modify the mag switch by making a separate path for positive to the ballast and then you would beed to isolate the switch and have it switch ground to the yellow wire. The tailswitch would turn the light on and off.

Mac


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## Aircraft800 (Jan 18, 2009)

Thanks for the quick reply Mac,
I can run a (+) wire around the side switch directly to the ballast, and modify the sideswitch to ground like used in the TaskLED drivers.
I may have to give it a try, I'm not sure I'd like the look though.


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## SmurfTacular (May 16, 2010)

Is there an update on this HID kit?


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## Aircraft800 (May 16, 2010)

SmurfTacular said:


> Is there an update on this HID kit?



You can purchase them directly threw Welch Allyn Lighting Products Division, but you'll have to call them for the price, it seemed to change every time I contacted someone. There are also links to request a quote and phone numbers in the hyperlink.

Let us know what you come up with!

B10R001 High Efficiency Solarc NGX Ballast

M10N004 Single Ended Solarc HID Lamp, no Dome

M10N003 Single Ended Solarc HID Lamp with Dome


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