# 100,000+ Lumen



## solvingtech (Sep 6, 2011)

I'm very new to LED's and have an application that will require over 100,000 lumen. In fact it could be as much as 400,000 lumen. It will be a spot/flood setup.

Where would I begin to look for building lights (biggest I've seen commercially is 50k) in the 100k range? 

Does anyone here have experience doing this? Any ideas for commercial options?

Light must be industrial and be water/dirt proof.

Thanks for any info you may have.


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## StarHalo (Sep 6, 2011)

A pair of metal halide bulbs would get you near the 100K lumen mark, and they're only a few dollars a piece. An eqivalent LED setup would be many thousands of dollars..


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## ElectronGuru (Sep 6, 2011)

StarHalo said:


> An eqivalent LED setup would be many thousands of dollars..


 
This one's only $8K!:

http://www.lighthouseww.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=305


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## daimleramg (Sep 6, 2011)

1000W hortilux HPS bulbs will give you over 145,000 lumens, I personally have walked into a room with 45x1000W bulbs running. It gave me a slight tan only after 10 mins in that room.

http://www.eyehortilux.com/superhps.html


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## qwertyydude (Sep 6, 2011)

^^^ Guru, Gotcha beat. 2.3 million lumens!

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B003ZAMEQ0/?tag=cpf0b6-20

Really though to get this bright would take some serious power. Just barely going above the 100,000 lumen mark would be a 1000 watt metal halide. That's about the upper limit you'll be able to use without going to a dedicated 220v line. You can usually find these around the $250 range for a system. It's definitely going to be more affordable than any sort of led system which can reach into the several thousand dollar range and you'll still have to do lots of wiring and custom build a regulator.


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## solvingtech (Sep 7, 2011)

Thanks for the info. The next "kink" is that I want to use solar charging and batteries to run the setup.

Price isn't too much of a concern.

I'm willing to pay for a good consultant.


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## StarHalo (Sep 7, 2011)

You'd need a firm that has done lighthouse-scale LED arrays if you're still wanting to go the LED route; the link ElectronGuru posted sounds like a good start. 

A residential house solar setup would probably be about right for powering it, those are $15-grand-ish; you'll need outside space for the solar paneling and inside space for the batteries/hardware.


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## 2100 (Sep 7, 2011)

Interesting. I searched again...looks like those Red/Blue grow lights aren't that expensive. Not sure about effectiveness though, no idea at all. And not sure how much are the white LEDs.

http://www.aliexpress.com/product-g...anel-576x-1W-high-power-LEDs-wholesalers.html

When i was in the aquarium hobby, LEDs were not even in vogue. LOL! They use quite powerful lights as well.

1150W LED for aquariums. Can OEM. Bridgelux/Epistar emitters. Cree would be more expensive.
http://www.aliexpress.com/product-g...ht-fishl-ampcoral-reef-light-wholesalers.html

But definitely no spot..... I guess a professional consultant is needed.


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## StarHalo (Sep 7, 2011)

2100 said:


> Interesting. I searched again...looks like those Red/Blue grow lights aren't that expensive. Not sure about effectiveness though, no idea at all. And not sure how much are the white LEDs.


 
Would be great for a rave, but not for area lighting. Effectiveness-wise, if you're using them for what they're usually used for, DaimlerAMG can tell you more about that..


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## qwertyydude (Sep 7, 2011)

solvingtech said:


> Thanks for the info. The next "kink" is that I want to use solar charging and batteries to run the setup.
> 
> Price isn't too much of a concern.
> 
> I'm willing to pay for a good consultant.


 
Running a 1000w system is going to take a lot of power. You'll need at least 1500-2000 watts of solar panel power and massive batteries. How long do you plan on running the lights? Multiply that many hours by the 1000 watts the lights use gets you about the number of watt-hours being used. Now double that to determine what size battery you need.

You'll need a big solar panel or set of solar panels, a charge controller, inverter, and some really large batteries like 4x12v 250 ah sizes. Total cost for this would be around $15,000 not including installation, and it sounds like you're gonna need to hire someone for this if you're only mulling this idea around so plan on about $20k to get a fully functional 1000w solar light.


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## solvingtech (Sep 7, 2011)

qwertyydude. are you a consultant?

I ordered one of the 1kw lights from above. It will be here in 30 days. Should be fun to play with!


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## solvingtech (Sep 7, 2011)

Actually ordered enough modules to build a 2kw light


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## deadrx7conv (Sep 7, 2011)

Whats the application for the solar lighting LED project? 
How many hours a day does it need to run?


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## Oznog (Sep 7, 2011)

solvingtech said:


> Thanks for the info. The next "kink" is that I want to use solar charging and batteries to run the setup.
> 
> Price isn't too much of a concern.
> 
> I'm willing to pay for a good consultant.


 
But HID (metal halide) isn't actually less efficient than LED (yet they get no press in the "green" market at all).

Metal halide's supposed to be 65-115 lumens/watt. Sure, there are SOME big LEDs on the market which exceed 100 lumens/W. But that's not yet accounting derating for operation at elevated temps, ballast losses, age, and elevated power levels. You'd probably end up having to grab one of the big DealExtreme LEDs for cost/availability reasons, with 80 lumens/W rated value. All in all, 50 lumens/W is probably gonna be a realistic bottom line.

MH will actually meet your illumination goals at lower power consumption.


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## daimleramg (Sep 7, 2011)

qwertyydude said:


> ^^^ Guru, Gotcha beat. 2.3 million lumens!
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/dp/B003ZAMEQ0/?tag=cpf0b6-20
> 
> Really though to get this bright would take some serious power. Just barely going above the 100,000 lumen mark would be a 1000 watt metal halide. That's about the upper limit you'll be able to use without going to a dedicated 220v line. You can usually find these around the $250 range for a system. It's definitely going to be more affordable than any sort of led system which can reach into the several thousand dollar range and you'll still have to do lots of wiring and custom build a regulator.


 

HPS is much better the metal halide, yes you are right about metal halide they can produce about 100k lumens but high pressure sodium(HPS) can produce 145k lumens and for only $80-$90 per bulb.


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## qwertyydude (Sep 8, 2011)

solvingtech said:


> qwertyydude. are you a consultant?
> 
> I ordered one of the 1kw lights from above. It will be here in 30 days. Should be fun to play with!


 
I'm not a consultant, I'm a manufacturing engineer. A consultant of sorts I suppose if you ever need to manufacture or build things. But also being a former naval nuclear engineer too, technology and electronics comes second nature to me.

Also the others have a good point. You need to match the technology to the application. If this is some sort of grow light HPS is the way to go. It's not only more efficient than metal halide, it's also better for the plants. Plants don't absorb green light so any light which produces that color only wastes energy. For general quality lighting HPS though is kinda pointless, that orange look just doesn't work for most people.


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## blasterman (Sep 8, 2011)

> But HID (metal halide) isn't actually less efficient than LED (yet they get no press in the "green" market at all).


 
Metal halide is certainly less efficient than LED when it comes to a decent visual spectrum. In order to get efficiency levels close to higher end LED fixtures metal halide bulbs produce 'utility' grade spikey spectrums and CRI that is good for parking lots and not much else. So, are we talking about growing plants, lighting a parking lot or being used in a living room?

Metal halide and HPS also don't compete for plant growth given some growth applications require red light and others blue light. Halide is ok efficient at producing blue light and weak at producing red light while HPS is super efficient at producing yellow-orange and very little else. Depends on if you are growing lettuce or tomatoes. 

LED will stomp halide when it comes to blue light / vegetative growth, as per what we've learned in reef tanks . For red light it's more controversial given that while HPS is enormously efficient at around 590nm, LED is much more efficient at 625-660nm, and increasing. The common sense factor is that a 1000watt HPS bulb and ballast will cost radically less than the equivalent in premium flux LEDs of any brand.

100k lumens is certainly possible with DIY and will be most cost/efficieny effective using Bridgelux. The cost though would be well in excess of five digits by my math.


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## HarryN (Sep 8, 2011)

The good news is that the core components all exist. It is just a matter of engineering the project. I just completed the engineering for a client project.
- 1 KW of lighting power
- solar panel charged (completely off grid)
- Located in VT, so not a lot of sunlight in the winter
- 5 days of battery storage + panels to cover the real world reality of that area
- Interverters, chargers, LED drivers, etc.

Yes, I do consulting for such projects.

Harry


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## blasterman (Sep 9, 2011)

Dumb question, but why do I keep seeing 'iverters' referred to in regards to LED powered solar applications?


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## deadrx7conv (Sep 9, 2011)

So you can power your house too! Many projects are not off grid. Some are simply back feeding the grid during the day, and using the grid for lighting at night, with a little battery backup for the evacuation. Inverters are there for a reason. 

Solar panel, charge controller, large battery bank, dusk/dawn switch, led light, wireless remote override...are what I have since no grid is available where my lighting is.


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## HarryN (Sep 10, 2011)

Part of the reason to use an inverter is also cost related. It is relatively easier to obtain a 100 watt AC LED driver than a similar DC driver. If it must be UL listed, then it almost forces the AC approach.


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## SemiMan (Sep 10, 2011)

HarryN said:


> The good news is that the core components all exist. It is just a matter of engineering the project. I just completed the engineering for a client project.
> - 1 KW of lighting power
> - solar panel charged (completely off grid)
> - Located in VT, so not a lot of sunlight in the winter
> ...



With only 5 days of storage in Vermont, you are going to have frequent outages in the winter.

Semiman


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## HarryN (Sep 10, 2011)

Hi Semiman - you are correct. I sort of glossed over that we had additional capacity in there and that the "5 days of storage"is actually more than 5 days of run time. It assumes no sun at all for 5 days and things will still work for a while. The panel area is actually crazily large, as it can charge up 5 days worth of storage in 4 hours on cloudy day.

I have suggested that the client use a diesel generator back up but so far they have not gone for it, perhaps because it is not life critical if the site looses power and some personal convictions they have toward using solar panels only.

I have also suggested that they instead skip the solar panels, and just put in enough storage to run for 3-4 weeks. They should then visit the site every 2 weeks and recharge the batteries with a truck mounted diesel generator. This would be far cheaper than the solution they want.

IMHO, the project cost is far too high because solar panels in a VT winter are a questionable way to power things. All I can really do is advise the client and offer alternatives with the design, cost and risk impact analysis. Of course, I try to sway them, but in the end, the clients make the decision on what they want to do.


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## qwertyydude (Sep 10, 2011)

Yeah sometimes people just won't listen to good advice. It's like trying to convince people that organic food is not necessarily any better for you or the environment. The real best solution to going off grid is to have a combination of power sources. When it's cloudy it's usually windy, so add in a wind generator, when it's sunny the panels can kick in. This should reduce the need for a huge solar panel array just because it's not optimally sunny. It may also reduce the need for huge back up power reserves, you just need to study the average annual weather patterns. See how much wind you get vs. how much sun and then plan according to that. But then again that makes far too much sense.


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## SemiMan (Sep 11, 2011)

I do large scale solar lighting. Even in Vermont it works (reliably). It is all about customer expectations .... and price.

Transporting diesel fuel and operating a diesel generator can be quite expensive as well. The problem with weeks of storage is that you are likely running the batteries into deeper discharge and replacing them more often. 

Gotta love customers with lots of money though 

Semiman


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## idleprocess (Sep 11, 2011)

SemiMan said:


> Gotta love customers with lots of money though



I get the impression that a "cost effectiveness" metric transforms into "pain point" for clients with a point to prove and the budget to try to prove it.


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## SemiMan (Sep 12, 2011)

idleprocess said:


> I get the impression that a "cost effectiveness" metric transforms into "pain point" for clients with a point to prove and the budget to try to prove it.


 
The issue is far more often with customers with unrealistic expectation on what can be accomplished for a set amount of money. Unfortunately, there are always people willing to sell them something. The customer is often happy at first, as systems are installed under ideal conditions ... summer, warm, etc. Then when it turns cold and cloudy, the system fails. Yes they paid 1/2 as much, but 1/2 of nothing is still nothing.

There are lots of snake oil salesmen out there who know nothing about Solar, Batteries, LEDs, etc. ... 

Semiman


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## bradmc (Sep 23, 2011)

2100 said:


> Interesting. I searched again...looks like those Red/Blue grow lights aren't that expensive. Not sure about effectiveness though, no idea at all. And not sure how much are the white LEDs.
> 
> http://www.aliexpress.com/product-g...anel-576x-1W-high-power-LEDs-wholesalers.html
> 
> ...


 

I own on of those Chinese aquarium LEDs It is Okay. The problem being, you don't get the depth penetration. The can add a million one waters, I have doubts it will give you usable PAR below the 24 inch mark. These companies bank on the fact that aquaria customers get all tingly when they hear light power measured in watts (traditional measurement of florecent and MH effectiveness). Also, I have yet to see the data sheet on the 1 watt and 3 watt Bridglux LED these companies use. I heard they possibly "exist" (since Bridelux does make white LEDs that could be comparable to the Cree XP-G) but I have a feeling that these companies are just taking OEM emitters and branding them Bridglux because they are the "next best thing" to Cree and Luxeon, which we know very well wouldn't be found in a Chinese LED unit. As far as I know, aside from white, Bridglux really only makes blue LEDs and again, I have yet to see these datasheets from Chinese manufacturers. SO buyer beware when buying DIY kits from China with "3 watt" Bridgelux LEDs". I strongly believe they are just slapping random LEDS on star boards, dressing them up like Crees and passing them off as Bridglux.


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## nguyet16 (Sep 24, 2011)

ouch my eyes...the goggles they did not work


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## 2100 (Sep 26, 2011)

bradmc said:


> I own on of those Chinese aquarium LEDs It is Okay. The problem being, you don't get the depth penetration. The can add a million one waters, I have doubts it will give you usable PAR below the 24 inch mark. These companies bank on the fact that aquaria customers get all tingly when they hear light power measured in watts (traditional measurement of florecent and MH effectiveness). Also, I have yet to see the data sheet on the 1 watt and 3 watt Bridglux LED these companies use. I heard they possibly "exist" (since Bridelux does make white LEDs that could be comparable to the Cree XP-G) but I have a feeling that these companies are just taking OEM emitters and branding them Bridglux because they are the "next best thing" to Cree and Luxeon, which we know very well wouldn't be found in a Chinese LED unit. As far as I know, aside from white, Bridglux really only makes blue LEDs and again, I have yet to see these datasheets from Chinese manufacturers. SO buyer beware when buying DIY kits from China with "3 watt" Bridgelux LEDs". I strongly believe they are just slapping random LEDS on star boards, dressing them up like Crees and passing them off as Bridglux.


 
Yeah I guess you sort of get what you pay for. If the electrical cost is not an issue it's ok. (some countries pay high tariffs for electricity, some low)


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## jasonck08 (Sep 28, 2011)

100x XM-L U2's would do the trick. Rigging them all up might be a challenge though.


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## blasterman (Sep 29, 2011)

> It is relatively easier to obtain a 100 watt AC LED driver than a similar DC driver. If it must be UL listed, then it almost forces the AC approach.


 
The reason you don't see 100watt DC/DC drivers is likely because 25watt ones are plentiful, easy to build, and/or cheap. Even LuxDrive is up to 50watt. 

At higher wattages you are also either driving a lot of parallel runs, which is risky due to cascade failure, or is high voltage, which is a short circuit / arc risk and costs efficiency on the up voltage side. Most people asking about 50/100watt LED drivers are doing so because they want to drive those wretched high wattage Chinese array LEDs given they can't do basic math.

I'll stick to my guns that the only reason inverters are part of this conversation is so somebody can run their PS3 and LCD. It certainly doesn't make sense when your source is clean DC in the first place and talking about LED circuits.

Either XM-Ls or Bridgelux would solve the problem at about 100-120 emitters. Use the residual heat to warm up cauldrons of boiling oil to drop on the roving bands of post apocalyptic marauders.


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## yifu (Oct 16, 2011)

100 000 lumens+ really calls for HID based light sources if you want to preserve efficiency and reasonable price (there are 1000watt HIDs i saw). To get that kind of outputs from LEDs, you're looking at 34 SST90 LEDs (the WN bin delivers 3000+ lumens each) which would run about 1400 dollars for the LEDs itself, 100 XMLs should run a bit less but you are increasing the complexity of the system. You might get cheaper if you bought direct, but i believe the reels are at least 1000 LEDs... Dont bother with those LED arrays. Most of them are inefficient.


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## SemiMan (Oct 16, 2011)

blasterman said:


> The reason you don't see 100watt DC/DC drivers is likely because 25watt ones are plentiful, easy to build, and/or cheap. Even LuxDrive is up to 50watt.
> 
> At higher wattages you are also either driving a lot of parallel runs, which is risky due to cascade failure, or is high voltage, which is a short circuit / arc risk and costs efficiency on the up voltage side. Most people asking about 50/100watt LED drivers are doing so because they want to drive those wretched high wattage Chinese array LEDs given they can't do basic math.
> 
> ...



I was going to reply but figured you knew everything so why bother .....

High wattage high voltage drivers are very common ... heard of street lights? Single driver = less failure points even if it is a single point of failure. No issues really with arc/high voltage if you know what you are doing.

As the poster said, there was limited available high wattage DC\DC LED drivers (and stills somewhat true). If you are driving 1000+ watts of LEDs, you do not necessarily want a ton of drivers and you may want specific string lengths too.


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