# What is this lathe worth?



## kuksul08 (Sep 21, 2011)

My company is selling a lathe that has been sitting in the warehouse for several years. It is an old KBC GRIP-1236. A _new_ one is $3200, but this thing is pretty dirty and needs some TLC. The ways aren't rusted or anything and apparently it works fine. Here is a link to the new model: http://kbctoolsandmachinery.com/product/show/6-660-010#

They were talking about something like $100-$200. I have no idea what to inspect at all to see if it's worth it. Is KBC any good?

Help?


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## BVH (Sep 21, 2011)

I'm certainly no expert but if it works and there are no broken gears or cracks in the casting itself, I would write them a $200 check and run with it before they change their mind. See if they will let you plug it in and run it through the gears and the power feeds. What's the shaft-looking think sitting in the chip tray on the right?


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## kuksul08 (Sep 21, 2011)

Yeah, apparently it works fine. They used to use it for years, but started sending a lot of the machining work out instead. 
Not sure what that shaft is. It looks like a driveshaft of some sort... 

I will see if I can plug it in and test it out. Any more input is appreciated


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## precisionworks (Sep 21, 2011)

See what their low number is and write the check. Get it loaded onto your trailer & out of there before they realize what they've done. At auction that machine would bring $500-$1000 & no one would ever get to plug it in or try it out. The only question I'd ask is "To whom is the check made out". I would be there when your employer opens in the morning, check book in hand & trailer attached to the truck.

Don't forget to bring the ratchet straps.


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## kuksul08 (Sep 21, 2011)

Okay cool. Worst case I can sell it for what I paid, right?

One hurdle I need to figure out is moving it around. They can put it in my truck with a fork lift, but once home it will be kind of awkward.


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## precisionworks (Sep 21, 2011)

> They can put it _in my truck_ with a fork lift,



Whatever else you do *please don't try that*. U-Haul has decent low deck tilt trailers that cost little to rent.






http://www.uhaul.com/Reservations/EquipmentDetail.aspx?model=RO


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## StrikerDown (Sep 21, 2011)

kuksul08 said:


> They were talking about something like $100-$200. I have no idea what to inspect at all to see if it's worth it. Is KBC any good?


 
I can't tell what the manufacturer is on the Quick Change Tool Post but it could be worth more than that used if USA Made and in good shape!

If you get it for a couple hundred don't feel bad for them, they have depreciated it down to zero and written it off, they will be saving property taxes on it being gone also you are doing them a favor! :devil:

:naughty:


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## cy (Sep 21, 2011)

WOW... $200 for a functioning 12in lathe!!! jump on it


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## darkzero (Sep 21, 2011)

$100-$200? You sure it wasn't $1000-$2000? Just that collet closer alone is worth like double that. And the tool post looks like maybe Armstrong or Aloris. If it is $100-$200, I would ask, "how many do you have? I'll take three please!"


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## precisionworks (Sep 21, 2011)

> can't tell what the manufacturer is on the Quick Change Tool Post


Pretty sure it says Aloris. About $150-$200 for the tool post without lathe attached :nana:


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## unterhausen (Sep 21, 2011)

I'd just mention that every lathe my employer sells gets toppled on the way out the door. They don't do it on purpose, but they haven't learned how to move the darn things yet.

Looks to me that thing has a single axis dro on it? Is there such a thing?


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## kuksul08 (Sep 22, 2011)

Wow, thanks for all the input. I can't remember what the manufacturer was for the tool post, but the city was in NJ. Aloris might be right.

I'm going to talk to my boss and maybe pick it up on Friday  It will be a fun project to clean up and then I can start making things.

The price was definitely low. He originally was thinking around $1000, but then got talked down to $500, and said he'd sell it for a lot cheaper since I'm an employee. They were actually going to give it away to a local college at first. I'll post some pictures if I end up getting it, and probably ask a lot of questions.


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## StrikerDown (Sep 22, 2011)

Good luck getting it... Unterhausen alluded to it being top heavy/getting toppled! They are sheet metal in the bases and cast iron on the top, read Extremely ***TOP HEAVY***!!!!!


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## kuksul08 (Sep 22, 2011)

I will have it loaded in my trailer (about 2' above the ground) and pushed all the way forward. I will strap it down with about 10 ratcheting tie-downs.


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## KC2IXE (Sep 22, 2011)

at $500, be careful you don't get arrested for grand larceny on the way home


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## kuksul08 (Sep 23, 2011)

Little update...

They were going to auction it off starting at $600, but sold it to me for $200. I'll be picking it up early next week


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## BVH (Sep 23, 2011)

Excellent! Congrats!


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## StrikerDown (Sep 23, 2011)

Congrats! 

PS: Try not to laugh too loudly as you drive away with it

Don't forget the pics!


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## wquiles (Sep 23, 2011)

Excellent news. Definitely a steal 

.... and yes, more pictures please :devil:


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## kuksul08 (Sep 23, 2011)

:naughty:

I contacted KBC and they told me there are two models, the GRIP-1236S and -1236E. The 'E' model goes back ~15 years and is USA made. The 'S' model was made before then in Taiwan. They are very similar, but I will have to find out which it is, since the nameplate doesn't have a designation.


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## BVH (Sep 23, 2011)

Think about maybe offering to work some extra hours for free, do a special job for them or something to show your appreciation. Might also help if this situation comes up again.


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## kuksul08 (Sep 23, 2011)

I'm salaried and did an 11 hour day this week, plus 3 hours of the worst traffic ever. I've paid my dues!!!!


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## cdrake261 (Sep 25, 2011)

Man, I could really use a lathe right now *hint, hint*


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## precisionworks (Sep 25, 2011)

> I could really use a lathe right now


Not a problem. Bring $500 cash & your trailer & we will reluctantly part with this nearly new machine:


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## cdrake261 (Sep 25, 2011)

precisionworks said:


> Not a problem. Bring $500 cash & your trailer & we will reluctantly part with this nearly new machine:


 
Is that a broken gear I see?


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## precisionworks (Sep 25, 2011)

> Is that a broken gear I see?


Yes & it's included at no extra charge :devil:


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## cdrake261 (Sep 25, 2011)

*sighs*


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## BVH (Sep 25, 2011)

Man o man I could have had this for $500? If I had only known before I bought mine!


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## kuksul08 (Sep 25, 2011)

I should mention that if for some reason this doesn't work out for me, most likely due to space or power restrictions, I may simply sell it. I will definitely let you guys know first if I do. I'm in the bay area CA.

Until then, I will be disassembling it and cleaning every part carefully; removing any rust, oiling and greasing parts as I reassemble. Wee!!!


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## gadget_lover (Sep 25, 2011)

kuksul08 said:


> I should mention that if for some reason this doesn't work out for me, most likely due to space or power restrictions, I may simply sell it. I will definitely let you guys know first if I do. I'm in the bay area CA.


 
That's awfully nice of you. Of course, waiting till I got my 9x20 to make that offer is cruel. Ofg course, if you'd entertain the idea of a trade??? 

Daniel


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## kuksul08 (Sep 26, 2011)

I just found out that this lathe is the "S" version made by Shun Shin in Taiwan. I guess I'll have to see how it is... my first inclination is worry, yet considering all high-end bicycles are made in Taiwan and the quality is superb, it really depends.


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## kuksul08 (Sep 26, 2011)

re-post


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## gadget_lover (Sep 26, 2011)

Have heart! I have a 1978 Knee mill; made in Taiwan. It's a basic model but still quite usable after more than 30 years.

Dan


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## StrikerDown (Sep 26, 2011)

Not to worry! Many machines that used to be made in Taiwan have been changed over to being made in China the Taiwanese made machines seem to be better made than the newer Chinese counterpart. My Mill for example is a Rong Fu, RF-31 Looks identical to Barry's Enco brand RF-31. From all I can gather Barry's machine is better. ...his skills are better also!

Edit:

Besides for a couple hundred bucks you can't go wrong. I'm thinking as long as it runs you can turn it and make a few bucks if you didn't want to keep it.


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## kuksul08 (Sep 26, 2011)

Sweet

Dan you should know that the part you made for me over a year ago worked perfectly and is still in use every day  A knee mill sounds like something I would like as well. My projects are somewhat limited even on a lathe. That's going to cost quiet a bit more though, considering I'd probably go for the CNC variant in order to do fancy ovals and whatnot.

I looked at it some more today. There is a coolant pump with plumbing, and a work light, all wired into this clean panel with two contactors and what looks like 220V capable. The gears look great and are covered in grease. The tool post is in fact an Aloris. Very excited. I'll actually be using a car trailer now, so there is no worry about load rating or anything, just making sure it's tied down and weighted properly. I appreciate all the advice.


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## unterhausen (Sep 26, 2011)

I would far prefer a Taiwanese lathe over one from the mainland. The Taiwanese have a culture of quality, whereas the mainlanders have a more cutthroat approach.


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## kuksul08 (Sep 28, 2011)

With the use of multiple chains, chain binders, tie-downs and tape, I secured it to my trailer and made it all the way home (40 miles) without a figurative hitch.

A box of miscellaneous gears, knobs, 20+ bits, drill chucks, a collet holder, and single axis DRO with no encoders were all included! I will get some better pics of everything and also some pics of my 'restoration' as I go along.


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## gadget_lover (Sep 28, 2011)

Darn! It's as big as your truck! 

Looking good there. 


Daniel


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## sortafast (Sep 29, 2011)

well, if you decide to sell it, let me know. I'd drive down there and pick it up if the price is right . Seriously.


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## kuksul08 (Sep 29, 2011)

I will definitely let you guys know first as I mentioned. As of now I plan on fixing it up and keeping it.

Any suggestions for removing light surface rust? The very end of the ways have some and I'd like to remove it without damaging the surface. I was thinking of WD-40 and steel wool.


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## cdrake261 (Sep 29, 2011)

kuksul08 said:


> I will definitely let you guys know first as I mentioned. As of now I plan on fixing it up and keeping it.
> 
> Any suggestions for removing light surface rust? The very end of the ways have some and I'd like to remove it without damaging the surface. I was thinking of WD-40 and steel wool.


 
Scotchbright maybe?


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## precisionworks (Sep 30, 2011)

Wet or Dry abrasive paper will leave a flatter surface if backed by a hardwood block. Start with 600, then 1200, and finish with 2000. Most large auto body supply stores carry this but it's also available online: http://www.caswellplating.com/buffs/wetanddry.htm

3000 is available but is mostly used to final finish clear coat.


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## Davo J (Sep 30, 2011)

Good score with the lathe, and they don't come much cheaper than that unless they give it away.
I would use a Scotchbright pad. Not sure what Barry is thinking there about using wet and dry on the ways? It would be OK to use on non precision surfaces like the top of the cross slide, but I wouldn't touch the ways with it.

Dave


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## cdrake261 (Sep 30, 2011)

I hope I can get as good of a deal... A relative of mine knows a woman whose husband had died, she was going to give him the lathe along with tooling, but he thought I would make better use for it. From what I gather, it's a little larger lathe that came from a high school, runs on 220v... Got any idea on how much something like this may weigh?


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## gadget_lover (Sep 30, 2011)

> Got any idea on how much something like this may weigh?



The weight may be anywhere from 300 pounds to several tons. Seriously. There is that much variation in the construction. Big machines with cast iron bases weigh a lot. Pressed metal stands weigh a lot less. Old iron sometimes use motor/generators to provide variable speed to a motor. That also adds weight.

If you can give a model number someone will know or can look it up on google pretty quick.

The 220 is not as big a deal as it may seem, as long as it is single phase you will probably be able to set up an outlet to serve it fairly quick.


Daniel


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## cdrake261 (Sep 30, 2011)

gadget_lover said:


> The weight may be anywhere from 300 pounds to several tons. Seriously. There is that much variation in the construction. Big machines with cast iron bases weigh a lot. Pressed metal stands weigh a lot less. Old iron sometimes use motor/generators to provide variable speed to a motor. That also adds weight.
> 
> If you can give a model number someone will know or can look it up on google pretty quick.
> 
> ...


 
I don't know all the details, but when I learn what model it is, I'll see if anybody here knows.


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## kuksul08 (Sep 30, 2011)

Mine has a sheet metal base which makes it VERY top heavy and still weighs around 1000lbs. Also the weight is shifted probably 90% on the left side, since I can easily pick up the right side with my hands and slide it around. I can't imagine how much one with an iron base would weigh!

I successfully moved it into my shed last night by wrapping chains around it and lifting with the bucket of a tractor. What an awkward piece of machinery...


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## cdrake261 (Sep 30, 2011)

What's the best way to move a larger lathe without heavy machinery?


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## precisionworks (Sep 30, 2011)

About 1200-1500 pounds but 99% of that is way up toward the top. They tip at the drop of a hat.


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## gadget_lover (Sep 30, 2011)

cdrake261 said:


> What's the best way to move a larger lathe without heavy machinery?


 
That's a question that needs qualification. To move one from city to city, you hire a freight company. Across town, the expensive but best way is to hire a Rigging company. The cheap and easy way is to hire a tow truck to lift it like it was a broken motorcycle. 

Across the garage (smooth floor) the "pyramid method" of using pipes as rollers works. So does a small folding crane if you are super careful.

I brought my 1000 pound mill home in a rented truck and used a pallet jack to move it around. One of the guys helping me almost got squirshed.

Daniel


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## kuksul08 (Oct 4, 2011)

I started working on the small bits that I got with the lathe. I don't know what half of it is. I'm scrubbing them with WD-40 and a toothbrush, with some 500 grit sandpaper at times if there is rust.

Here are some pictures of the parts:

1. Parts I finished cleaning up. I have some extra jaws, more extra jaws with round AL jaws attached, a tool holder, facing bits, parting tools, chuck keys.
a. Upper left piece? Looks like a dovetail attachment with some weird rods held in with set-screws.
b. Middle right? It is two pieces held together with a screw in the middle. Inside is a circular pyramid shape that is spring loaded.
c. Middle left? Long tapered piece that goes to a point.
d. Middle middle? Another cone shaped piece with a diagonal hole drilled through it and a flat tip.






2. A lot of collars or spacers or something. 
a. Center? Saw tooth piece. Some type of parting tool?
b. Lower left? plastic piece with a shaft at either end and gearing inside that makes them spin in opposite directions.





3. Big huge tool holder, various dies, drill chuck, 20+ bits that I need to go through 





If any of you know what those parts are I would appreciate it


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## unterhausen (Oct 4, 2011)

"saw tooth piece" is a broach. Could be useful if you can find the other part. Looks like you got the junk pile in addition to the lathe.


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## Th232 (Oct 4, 2011)

Would be useful to get individual pics, but if I'm reading it right, I'd say 1c is a dead centre, 1b *may* be a live centre (spring-loaded makes me say no though), 1d looks like a countersink. 2b sounds like a planetary gear setup, but I have no clue what it'd be useful for in a lathe.

Paging Barry, paging Barry to thread #322766. As underhausen said, definitely looks like you got the junk pile as well as the lathe. I see a couple of good sized dies in there though.


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## precisionworks (Oct 4, 2011)

Looks like 10% or so go to the lathe but it's hard to tell with everything in one box. If you want to post individual photos some of the parts could be identified.


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## unterhausen (Oct 4, 2011)

I'm really curious what that tool holder is at the upper left of the box with all the chuck jaws


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## kuksul08 (Oct 4, 2011)

unterhausen said:


> "saw tooth piece" is a broach. Could be useful if you can find the other part. Looks like you got the junk pile in addition to the lathe.


 
Oh cool. I've used a broach before. It's useless for me though. I just took everything that was available and would go through it later on.



Th232 said:


> Would be useful to get individual pics, but if I'm reading it right, I'd say 1c is a dead centre, 1b *may* be a live centre (spring-loaded makes me say no though), 1d looks like a countersink. 2b sounds like a planetary gear setup, but I have no clue what it'd be useful for in a lathe.
> 
> Paging Barry, paging Barry to thread #322766. As underhausen said, definitely looks like you got the junk pile as well as the lathe. I see a couple of good sized dies in there though.





precisionworks said:


> Looks like 10% or so go to the lathe but it's hard to tell with everything in one box. If you want to post individual photos some of the parts could be identified.



Yeah, I'll get some individual pics tonight hopefully. I kinda assumed everything was lathe related and would be easily identified, but clearly that's not the case.

Thanks guys


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## StrikerDown (Oct 4, 2011)

I'll give you $20 for that round thingie with the 3 stubs sticking out of it... Bottom pic.

Plus shipping! 


As a bonus another $20. for the Aloris!!


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## cdrake261 (Oct 4, 2011)

Even if all those extra's are useless, you still got a deal!


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## kuksul08 (Oct 5, 2011)

StrikerDown said:


> I'll give you $20 for that round thingie with the 3 stubs sticking out of it... Bottom pic.
> 
> Plus shipping!
> 
> ...


 
That "thingy" must be special if you're willing to pay money for it haha! What is it?



cdrake261 said:


> Even if all those extra's are useless, you still got a deal!



Totally. I'm stoked, but this is a lot of work already. I started on the lathe today, bit by bit from the top and it is going slowly.

Here I have done the Aloris tool post and got most of the rust off the ways. Couldn't figure out how to get the quick-change tool post apart. I got the tapered locking claws out, but really wanted to clean the junk out of the threads inside. Everything else is still a mess. Question: I'm using WD-40 because it is a great solvent and prevents rust, but what is the proper *lubricant* for a lathe? I put some grease on the lead screw and nut. I assume a thicker oil of some sort?





...and here are some individual shots of those mystery parts.


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## StrikerDown (Oct 5, 2011)

I think that is a collet closer sitting in the chip pan, first pic.
3rd and 4th pic looks like a saw blade arbor for several size saws.
5th, is a counter sink.

I am curious about what tool the holder holds also as well as the black and white plastic thingy.

The round plate with the 3 stubs is a chuck backing plate mount D1-4 size I think.


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## kuksul08 (Oct 5, 2011)

Yep, that is a collet closer in the chip pan. That doesn't mean I know how it works, but i know how it attaches to the machine.

Good call on the saw blade thing! That's pretty cool.

The black and white thing has a female hex on the white side - It looks like a screw driver bit could go in there.


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## precisionworks (Oct 5, 2011)

Those parts are so obvious that I won't even comment on what they are :nana: (in other words I haven't a clue except for the zero flute countersink).

You really have to want to take the Aloris apart to mess with it as it requires custom grinding a huge screwdriver & turning that with a wrench 18" long or greater, see here: Practical Machinist General Forum


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## Th232 (Oct 5, 2011)

Now I really want to know what the thing in the second pic is. Striker nailed it with the 3rd/4th pic, glad to know my guess on the 5th was correct.

Maybe the majority of it really is just random bits & pieces. :shrug:

That said, Murphy's Law dictates that if you throw any of it away, you'll find out what it was used for 3 months from now.


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## kuksul08 (Oct 5, 2011)

Th232 said:


> Now I really want to know what the thing in the second pic is. Striker nailed it with the 3rd/4th pic, glad to know my guess on the 5th was correct.
> 
> Maybe the majority of it really is just random bits & pieces. :shrug:
> 
> That said,* Murphy's Law dictates that if you throw any of it away, you'll find out what it was used for 3 months from now.*



So true! haha


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## KC2IXE (Oct 5, 2011)

OK - In post #59
Photo 2 is a toolpost for the aloris - I know I've seen one before, not sure it's use

Photo #3-4 are for holding slotting saws - they have different center holes depending on size, hence the steps
#5 is a countersink


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## gadget_lover (Oct 5, 2011)

The strange item in #2 looks like it might be have stops of some sort to locate before using a boring bar.

Daniel


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## gadget_lover (Oct 5, 2011)

This post intentionally left blank.


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## unterhausen (Oct 5, 2011)

the black and white plastic thingy is a gearbox for a hand drill, I think it's for screw bits. I think it might reverse if you hold it, I forget. I threw one away not that long ago. Got it the same way as the OP, in a pile of junk. 

Some of the unexplained parts probably go to the collet closer (in the chip pan). It would help if we knew what series collets and the maker of the closer.


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## kuksul08 (Oct 6, 2011)

I looked at the parts a lot more today and finished cleaning up the misc. pieces. It looks to me like parts for the collet closer as mentioned above^ as well as spare parts for the lathe gearbox. 

One interesting thing I noticed is that on about 4 of the bits, there was a plastic/epoxy coating on the tips that easily peeled off. Is that the way they come when new? Also, every single bit angles the same way, and they look like they're for facing. Is my understanding correct that facing and turning bits are different?

I'm learning a lot from this and having fun cleaning up old parts  Thanks again for everyone's input.


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## gadget_lover (Oct 6, 2011)

Yes, the coating is to protect the delicate (HAH!) edges from damage. A chipped edge in a cutter leaves a mark in the cut.

There are (IIRC) 6 basic shapes for cutting tools. There are a million variations.  The ones I see there look like they can be used to cut to a shoulder when moving from left to right or as a facing tool. 

Dan


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## kuksul08 (Oct 9, 2011)

Making good progress on this cleanup, but there is a lot left to do. I started from the top and just scrub off all grease, rust, etc. Everything is checking out great so far, nothing broken or worn out. I thought about re-painting it, but I don't know if I'm ready for that much more work. I already don't have enough time.

Just finished the cross slide today






Next thing on the list, cross slide gearbox thingy





Completed: tail stock





Completed: compound slide/tool holder





Ugh


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## precisionworks (Oct 9, 2011)

Much improved 

One the yellow part shown below (tail stock clamp shoe) ...






You may want to take a file & then a stone to break the sharp edges and round them slightly. This usually helps the tailstock slide more smoothly as the shoe is less likely to catch when moving forward or backward. Also, there should be a spring between the shoe & the base of the tailstock.


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## kuksul08 (Oct 9, 2011)

Thanks for the heads up. I didn't notice any rough movement but I will definitely check out the edges.

No spring there... it makes sense though. I will try to find a suitable one. I do have a box of valve springs, maybe they're a little too stiff 

edit: One thing I will need is gearbox oil. Is there a suitable weight I can find at the hardware/automotive store that I don't have to special order?


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## cdrake261 (Oct 9, 2011)

Hey precisionworks, were you serious about selling that old lathe you have?


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## kuksul08 (Oct 15, 2011)

I'm making great progress on the lathe cleanup. Still, everything looks mechanically great, it's just kinda ugly where the paint is all chipped off. I should have it 99% DONE tomorrow. Just need to clean out the coolant reservoir and wipe down the stand. I'll definitely have some pictures.

I have a question about the belt tension from the motor. The motor is mounted on a pivot axle and the motor is probably 20 pounds or so. It hangs down and is supported by the belt if you don't connect the two support arms. How much tension should be on the belt? I was thinking of using the motor's own weight, and then tightening up the mounts in that position. I don't want to wear out the bearings or have belt slipping, so there is definitely a sweet spot.

Also, any input on the gearbox oil for the cross slide?


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## darkzero (Oct 16, 2011)

kuksul08 said:


> How much tension should be on the belt?



I generally use the same method as when I used to work on cars. I give it tension to where I can still twist the belt (between the pulleys) 90 deg without major struggle. But this is just a guideline & will vary from belt types & lengths in between the pulley, you eventually get a feel for it. But since the distance between pulleys on a lathe is not long this generally works fine.

Another way of checking is to hold the motor's pulley & try turning the spindle with as much force as you can using you hand, if it slips, well you know what to do. But I only do this on the lathe just to double check & don't rely on this for tension. With a double belt setup, I find that I don't need as much tension as I did with my mini lathe lathe that had a single belt.

A slightly looser belt will also give you a better finish since it absorbs "vibes" from the motor. I found this out when using the stock belts on my current lathe. With the Power Twist belts I don't notice this as the belt absorbs it by design.

A proper way to check tension is how much distance you can squeeze or push the the belt in but you would have to find the specs for a given belt size & belt type.


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## kuksul08 (Oct 16, 2011)

Thanks for the input. I should have looked in the manual first before asking... They say there should be 1/2" of play in the belt under "normal finger pressure" whatever that means. Also for the oil they recommend Mobil DTE Light.


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## precisionworks (Oct 16, 2011)

> Hey precisionworks, were you serious about selling that old lathe you have?


Only if you also buy the swampland in Arizona :nana: I would not think of selling that to anyone I knew as it is truly a worn out POS that is much better suited to use as a boat anchor. 



> 1/2" of play in the belt under "normal finger pressure"


Half an inch of deflection at mid span is the usual recommendation for a V-belt drive.



> they recommend Mobil DTE Light.


+1


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## cdrake261 (Oct 16, 2011)

precisionworks said:


> Only if you also buy the swampland in Arizona :nana: I would not think of selling that to anyone I knew as it is truly a worn out POS that is much better suited to use as a boat anchor.



There's swampland in Arizona? /sarcasm


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## kuksul08 (Oct 16, 2011)

It's all done! I only now need to attach the splash shield/back piece and it's good to go. I hooked it up to power and it started right up, very *smooth* and *quiet*... I am amazed. No vibration whatsoever. I have managed to make it go three speeds: Medium, Fast, and Scary Fast. I still need to learn these controls.

Only thing is I have to hold the green start button for about 2 seconds. The contactor(s) click a few times before the motor gets up to speed. Is that because I'm running it on a generator with a 110V/20A supply?

As far as operation, what knobs can I turn while the machine is _running_? I know I can move the cross slide gear engagement levers, but what about the lead screw drive and direction?

I already cut a little piece of aluminum tube. It worked perfectly. Oh the possibilities...


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## shao.fu.tzer (Oct 16, 2011)

I think it's worth about $20, but I'll cut you a deal and give you $50 for it! 

Man, I need a lathe...


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## gadget_lover (Oct 16, 2011)

That looks reals nice. Good job there.

The question of "what can I change while it is running' often boils down to whether or not you are changing gear engagements. Looking at the manual for your lathe ( http://kbctoolsandmachinery.com/assets/pdf/6-660-010 GRIP-1236E Lathe Manual.pdf ) it says that "Caution, speed change can be made when motor is completely stopped." It says to stop for anything related to teh change gears too.

I suspect you will have to look for those warnings throughout the manual. Unfortunately, the PDF is a scan of the paper manual and only parts are identified by my PDF reader as text. You'll have to read the whole thing.

Daniel


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## cdrake261 (Oct 16, 2011)

You lucky son of a gun! If I were ever so lucky to catch a deal as such...


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## precisionworks (Oct 16, 2011)

> I have to hold the green start button for about 2 seconds. The contactor clicks a few times before the motor gets up to speed.



Chances are 99 out of 100 that you have a bad starting cap (located under the big bump on the side or top of the motor). The other possibilities are a bad centrifugal switch (not likely) or a loose wire somewhere. Remove the cap & check it first. 

Electric Motor Trouble-Shooting Chart


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## gadget_lover (Oct 16, 2011)

Before doing too much trouble shooting I'd try it on a house circuit. The 1.5 hp motor draws about 12 amps when running. It will pull a lot more when starting up ( 2 to 3 times as much for some fraction of a second. I suspect that the generator is surging and the voltage is fluctuating as it tries to keep up with the demand. A house circuit can handle those momentary high currents without problems.

Daniel


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## kuksul08 (Oct 17, 2011)

Yeah... only problem is the nearest house circuit is probably 50 yards away. I don't think extension cords would be the smartest thing, and wiring it for PG&E might be costly.


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## precisionworks (Oct 17, 2011)

> the nearest house circuit is probably 50 yards away.


Installing direct burial UF (under feeder) cable isn't a hard job. Cost is about $1/ft and labor is free if you provide it :devil:

If the generator is small compared to the load this may be the problem. A 1.5 hp motor will run on 120 volts (20A circuit) but it starts a lot faster on a 240v circuit. A single UF-B 8-2 WG (#8 2 conductor with ground) will power the lathe & other tools & allow installation of some lighting.


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## kuksul08 (Oct 17, 2011)

That's not bad. The only hard part would be getting the cable across the driveway. If I wanted 220V, would I need a #8-3 cable? It might make sense considering I will probably have 220V equipment in the future. For now all I need are some lights and lathe power.


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## precisionworks (Oct 17, 2011)

> If I wanted 220V, would I need a #8-3 cable?


For most jurisdictions you would use the #8-2 with ground (or perhaps #6-2 with ground, depending on how much total load you want to run at one time). A double pole breaker is needed & each of the two conductors carries 120 volts (one wire from each breaker) so you have 240v at your shop.

All this assumes that your jurisdiction allows using the ground as a neutral - many do but some don't. If you can, check with a local electrician - there are jurisdictions that will require 2 "hot" wires + a neutral + a ground. 



> The only hard part would be getting the cable across the driveway.


You can sometimes rent a horizontal boring bar that allows you to bore under the driveway. If you cannot find one to rent it should not cost much to have someone bore a short & shallow run like that.


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## kuksul08 (Oct 17, 2011)

precisionworks said:


> For most jurisdictions you would use the #8-2 with ground (or perhaps #6-2 with ground, depending on how much total load you want to run at one time). A double pole breaker is needed & each of the two conductors carries 120 volts (one wire from each breaker) so you have 240v at your shop.
> 
> All this assumes that your jurisdiction allows using the ground as a neutral - many do but some don't. If you can, check with a local electrician - there are jurisdictions that will require 2 "hot" wires + a neutral + a ground.
> 
> You can sometimes rent a horizontal boring bar that allows you to bore under the driveway. If you cannot find one to rent it should not cost much to have someone bore a short & shallow run like that.



Thanks for the advice 

I measured it today and it's actually around 300 feet. I would need some FAT wire to run that distance without huge losses. Still, I am going to look into it. Until then, the generator seems to work, it just struggles on startup.


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## precisionworks (Oct 18, 2011)

> it's actually around 300 feet. I would need some FAT wire to run that distance without huge losses.


To keep the voltage drop under 3% at 300' means:

#8 for a 30A circuit

#6 for a 40A circuit

#4 for a 50A circuit

---------------------------------------------------------

FWIW #6 almost makes the grade for a 50A circuit but has a V-loss of 3.1%  If in doubt (and always when you have a motor load) going to the next larger size is recommended.


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## gadget_lover (Oct 18, 2011)

I don't think it need be that fat for a 20 amp circuit. It looks like 8 to 10 gauge will work. #8 if run continuously, 10 if intermittent. I seem to recall the electrician definition of intermittent is A LOT. 

http://www.interfacebus.com/Copper_Wire_AWG_SIze.html

Daniel


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## kuksul08 (Oct 18, 2011)

Okay, good info. Indeed, electrical codes/standards for sizing wire are generally on the safe side, just in case. I'm building a simple machine AC electrical enclosure at work and the code says we have to use 14Ga, 600V wire for everything. It's a bit excessive for little 110V, 3A circuits. I do think we're doing a little future-proofing though.


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## precisionworks (Oct 18, 2011)

> I don't think it need be that fat for a 20 amp circuit.


For a single 120v 20A lighting only circuit #10 AWG would work fine. But that's a lot of work just to light up a few fixtures. For a motor starting circuit it's worth the extra expense to install a 240v run for whatever amperage you anticipate needing. Then you'll have enough capacity to start a motor at the same time that the lights are on ... which is really handy after dark :nana:

I wired in a 60A subpanel for the last "shop" I had & it quickly filled with breakers. One for the air compressor, one for the lighting circuit, one for the outlet circuit, and one for the 240v tools. You cannot have too many amps available.


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## kuksul08 (Oct 18, 2011)

That's what I'm thinking. My dad suggested a 50A circuit if we're going to go through the trouble of running wire.


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## BVH (Oct 18, 2011)

precisionworks said:


> I wired in a 60A subpanel for the last "shop" I had & it quickly filled with breakers. One for the air compressor, one for the lighting circuit, one for the outlet circuit, and one for the 240v tools. You cannot have too many amps available.



To me, it's the same idea as everyone here heavily recommending to me that I buy the biggest lathe that I have money and space for - the first time. Do it right the first time, knowing you will quickly use all the capacity you just created.

I just got thru building a small fir'd out wall to pass some heating duct thru to heat my garage. In that same 10" x 30" cavity, I ran 4 ea. 2" I.D. future conduits that create the only pathway from my basement to my attic. The contractor laughed and laughed at me, calling it Bob's freeway in the wall. The price of the materials is really, really cheap. The labor will kill you. Given the relatively small difference in the cost of cable, buy and run at least the #6's or better, the #4's. Do it right the first time. It always costs triple or more of the original cost to do it again.


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## kuksul08 (Oct 19, 2011)

Totally agree. I would probably have to do this myself which would save some money, but I'm probably looking at a good chunk of change now with UF-B 4-2 WG wire aren't I? I have tried looking online and I can't even find the direct burial variant in 4 AWG. Know of any good sources for the length I'm considering? 

I am going to contact PG&E and inquire about the cost. It's probably still a ton more than running wire myself, but both options might be a little too much for the time being. It'd be funny to run $1500 in wire to power my $200 lathe


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## precisionworks (Oct 19, 2011)

Another option to look into is to set your own pole, normally a 6 by 6 by 20' long. 4 feet of the pole goes into the ground leaving 16' above grade. It's easy for your utility to run a 100' drop from their transformer to your pole. You install a meter base and disconnect on the pole & then run underground for the last 200 feet.


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## cdrake261 (Oct 19, 2011)

kuksul08 said:


> Totally agree. I would probably have to do this myself which would save some money, but I'm probably looking at a good chunk of change now with UF-B 4-2 WG wire aren't I? I have tried looking online and I can't even find the direct burial variant in 4 AWG. Know of any good sources for the length I'm considering? I am going to contact PG&E and inquire about the cost. It's probably still a ton more than running wire myself, but both options might be a little too much for the time being. It'd be funny to run $1500 in wire to power my $200 lathe


 Even if you paid $1500 to run 220v to your garage, the awesome deal you got on your lathe offsets cost to run service.


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