# Ok, can somebody simply explain all these new emitters?



## yalskey (Nov 4, 2009)

Ok, I've been on CPF for several years now, reading the LED forum almost everyday. Where in the heck does everyone get all their info / knowledge from? It seems like these new emitters (XP-G XR-Q??? SST-90??? or whatever) just popped up and everyone seemed to be totally educated about them and speaking about them like I missed a class or something.

As you can see, I can hardly even name all the new emitters, much less know how they compare to the previous generation emitters. Can someone please give me a run down on all the new different emitters that have come onto the scene within the last 6 or so months?

I feel so dumb sometimes because something new will get mentioned in a thread, and everyone seems to know about it except me. I mean, I read CPF everyday... and I'm still ignorant. Is there some other website people are getting their news from that covers flashlights better than CPF???

Sorry for the newb-ism, but I thought maybe there are others out there that also are lost / confused about all these new emitters, yet hadn't asked yet.

Thanks in advance.


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## Marduke (Nov 4, 2009)

Have you been reading the LED Flashlights forum, or the LED forum? 

Also, keep in mind many people throw out the new terms without having the faintest idea why they are important, or anything about them really. 

Hell, a large portion still think "Q5" and "R2" refer to specific LED models.


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## yalskey (Nov 4, 2009)

Been reading the LED Flashlights forum. I guess it would make sense that that kind of information would be in the LED (emitter) forum. But you would think there would be some bleed-through. I never had to go to another forum to learn about P7's and MCE's, etc.


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## Linger (Nov 4, 2009)

heh, wrong forum.
Try this thread: White LED testing
https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/89607&page=12

xpg is tested on pg 13. Read through this, especially emiter outputs at lower currents, efficiency. This knowledge cuts through a lot of the chatter about new flashlights.


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## Gunner12 (Nov 4, 2009)

Think of the XP-E as a repackaged and smaller version of the XR-E. The XP-C as a smaller and repackaged version of the XR-C. The XP-E and XP-C are the same size, the xx-C has a smaller die then the xx-E. The repackaging is similar to the Luxeon Rebel, a small dome over the die, except square. Look at the picture on Cree's site and you'll see what I mean.

The XP-G has a 2mm^2 die instead of a 1mm^2 die in the same package as the XP-E so it has a larger emitting area and thus will be more efficient then the XR-E/XP-E at the same drive current (hence the R3, R4, and R5 flux ratings). But the larger die also means a wider hotspot and less throw for the same reflector and current as an XP-E.

The SST-90/SSR-90 and SST-50 are new LEDs by Luminus Devices. The SST-50 has a 5mm^2 die, imagine the MC-E except without the gap between dies (so no doughnut hole with a smooth reflector). The SST-90 has a 9mm^2 die. The SST-90 has the potential to go over 2000 lumen if heatsinked right. The SST-50 can be brighter then the quad die LEDs (P7 and MC-E) because of the larger die.

Does that make sense?


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## Henk_Lu (Nov 4, 2009)

Marduke said:


> Hell, a large portion still think "Q5" and "R2" refer to specific LED models.



Some even say a Q5 has a purplish tint while an R2 has a yellowish tint and that the XP-G makes green light... 

Does all this answer yalskeys question? Probably not!

I would be interested too in some more details, I had a look at the Cree-PDF, but that's too much info. Let's keep it small.

Here my info, incomplete and no claim about exactitude :

Cree : 

XR-E - the "old" model which was on the market when I got in, 1.5 years ago. Larger dice, available up to R2

XP-E - a newer model with a smaller dice, available up to R2 (more efficient?)

XR-E - the newest line, larger dice, more efficient, brighter, available up to R5 by now (S2?)

MC-E - multi-die emitter wit 4 XR-E (XP-E? XP-G?)

Seoul :

P4 - single dice, smoother beam like Crees, no more knowledge about it
P7 - multi-die, no more knowledge about it

Osram :

GDP (Golden Dragon Plus) Small single dice, no more knowledge about it

Luminus :

SST50 : New LED, large dice (5mm2?), theoretical 1250 Lumen
SST90 : New LED, largest dice (9mm2?), theoretical 2.200 Lumen

Philips :

Luxeon I-III-V (???)

Not much used anymore, I only know the Luxeon V quad-die (???)

I also read that Cree would now be called Cree-Osram for 3 years due to an agreement I have no details of...


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## hank (Nov 4, 2009)

I think we're going to need a forum for discussing the best heat pipes, heat radiators, and cooling fins real soon now. 
http://www.wickedsunshine.com/Images/PNG_Sketches_400x400/RayGun60sGirl_400x400.png


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## yalskey (Nov 4, 2009)

Thank you Henk_Lu and Gunner12... that's kinda what I needed to hear.

Why they make all these model numbers so similar and confusing I'll never know. I mean seriously... you have emitter types and bin #'s and then color / tint codes. It gets a bit much I'd say.

Here's an idea. Come out with an LED emitter and call it model 1. Then, when you improve it, call it model 2, etc.

It's like the same thing with JetBeam and their naming conventions... uhhhhgg, don't get me started on that!


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## Gatsby (Nov 4, 2009)

Yalskey - I sympathize with you and have followed this stuff for awhile and only just barely figured out some of the new entrants.

It sure was a lot easier when you had the SSC P4 and the Cree XR-E emitters... 

Well really it was a lot easier when you had a LuxI as the choice. Then a LuxIII was OK and I could even stand LuxV. 

But things went haywire a little while ago, between Cree various packages, SSCs modest offerings, the new SSTs, Osrams, and still some interest in the K2s (although discontinued which makes you wonder what they have coming down the pipeline)... it makes your head spin.

And for what it's worth one reason I've never bought a Jetbeam light is I have absolutely no idea what any of their nomenclature means... completely byzantine to my eye, and they bring out a new light so often with mark X's and Pros and who knows what, yikes.


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## kramer5150 (Nov 4, 2009)

CPF is a tightly moderated forum. Therefore you generally will not see emitter discussions here.


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## Vesper (Nov 4, 2009)

Thanks Henk_Lu - it's helpful to see them listed like this.


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## DM51 (Nov 4, 2009)

LOL yalskey, excellent post #1. Like you and Gatsby, I sometimes feel I'm being left behind by new technology...

I'm moving the thread into the LED (emitters) section, where you'll find more info.


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## csshih (Nov 4, 2009)

https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/246296

here's an old thread.


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## Zero_Enigma (Nov 4, 2009)

To the OP, yah I totally feel like the whole P7 and MCE and XP-*'s kind of came out of no where. 

I'm used to the SSC P4 and Cree Q5 star LED and wiring it up up but when it comes to P7 or MCE I'm lost on how to solder all 4 dies in parallel or serial or how they work. It would help if I had a sample unit from a local CPF'er to test and learn for an hour but just readin off the web I'm lost on that.

One thing is for sure... I love the MCE's as bike lights. MMmmmmm triple or quad bike lights make me droooooool. lovecpf


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## Th232 (Nov 4, 2009)

yalskey said:


> Why they make all these model numbers so similar and confusing I'll never know. I mean seriously... you have emitter types and bin #'s and then color / tint codes. It gets a bit much I'd say.



Technically that's what X-RE and all means, as Gunner pointed out:

XR-E
XP-E
XP-G
MC-E


1st letter:
X: One die
M: Multiple dice, 4 in this case.

2nd letter:
R: The larger packaging for a single die LED
P: Smaller packaging for a single die LED
C: Packaging for a multi-dice LED

3rd letter:
C, E, G: Die size, as Gunner explained.

All of it is just different forms of categorisation.


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## Curt R (Nov 4, 2009)

yalskey:

Just like in the movie 'Tremors'; "everybody knows about them, we just didn't tell you." :laughing:

Seriously it is difficult to keep track of the newest developments in the LED industry even for us that design LED flashlights as a living. There is a constant revision and update of technology in LED design, electronic drivers and optics. We research industry specific journals, trade shows, news releases and talk to people that we know and deal with in the industry. Sometimes we have to remain quiet about the latest details as requested by our informants. Most of this information is about LED technology and when it will be published as a news release. The LED technology is very competitive and industrial espionage makes the CIA, KGB and MI6 look like amateurs because these people deal with money, and it is not just a game to them. 

We were informed of the cancellation of the Lumileds line of K2 LEDs a month before they released the information on their web site. And when I announced that information at the same time as their release date on a thread in this forum, it was met with disbelief. We were in the process of designing three lights around that LED. That required a change in LED, optics and mechanical revisions. 

When I had talked to a Lumileds manager in Jan 2008, they had just released the K2-TFFC-0220 to me for testing. I was informed that by summer of 2008 the power level would be at 240 Lumens and by December it would be at 300 Lumens. That would be their lab testing results. What they, (the LED manufactures), are doing in the lab right now we can expect to see sometime late next year. 

I would venture to believe that 90% of the CPFers on the forum still do not know of the death of the K2 LED. So don't feel bad about not knowing about the latest changes. :candle:

Curt


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## hank (Nov 4, 2009)

Another tangent--a foreshadowing (oh, is THAT the wrong word) for what's happening with LED lights -- here's a video http://www.ecogeek.org/efficiency/2375

He shows the first screw-in LED bulb for household use with a cooling fan built right in. 
(The guy's no relation to me, just happens to have the same first name). 

They don't identify the LED. Someone will know what it is.
I'm sure someone's already working on putting this into a flashlight. It'd be great as a bike light with forced air cooling added to the fan-forced cooling.


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## Curt R (Nov 4, 2009)

Could be the new Cree 900+ Lumen light bulb that they just announced.

Curt


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## csshih (Nov 4, 2009)

with the super sickly yellow light! ack!


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## SFG2Lman (Nov 4, 2009)

is there an emitter sticky? with pics, descriptions (binning and tints), and links to the data sheet? I haven't seen one but I sure would love a comprehensive/all inclusive one...perhaps i will take on the project...obviously it would only be for high-powered LEDs as making one for every LED ever may be a bit over the top.


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## yalskey (Nov 5, 2009)

Th232 said:


> Technically that's what X-RE and all means, as Gunner pointed out:
> 
> XR-E
> XP-E
> ...



Amazingly helpful... I had NO idea about this... thank you.

I actually kind of just found out about this LED emitter specific forum. No wonder I was so in the dark... I was just reading the LED flashlight forum.


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## kan3 (Nov 5, 2009)

People will start packing their light bulbs with them when they move since they will "last forever"


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## Curt R (Nov 5, 2009)

Seoul has just announced the Z2 LED with specs of up to 300 Lumens at 350 mA drive. Unfortunately this is not for flashlights and the voltage is about 10 to 12. What they did is to take the Z1 chip that has eight parallel dies, (fingers), and place three of them in series. The main problem outside of collimation of the output is the tiny bonding wires used. No real current handling capability. Large numbers of LED designs are announced but only a few work for our applications. 

It would be nice if a technical thread of the latest and best LEDs for flashlight usage could be started, the problem is that it would have to be continually updated almost monthly. 

Curt


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## HarryN (Nov 5, 2009)

Unless you are someone like Curt -a pro designer, then it is really hard to ever be completely caught up with what is going on. I was following along on the K2 roadmap and got caught flat footed myself.

My suggestion is to start with two LEDs only:
- a Cree XP-G
- a Lumileds Rebel

Those two cover a lot of use space and types.

Go to the company web sites and download the data sheets and the other related literature. Print it out, and read it every day for 2 weeks - again and again. At that point - buy a couple and just play with them. You will learn so much so fast that you will be amazed. Buy them already mounted on stars to start with so they are easier to handle.

For less than $ 20, you can achieve a great personal education in LEDs in 30 days.


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