# Project-M by Milkyspit: Long-Running High Output LED: Availability, Info, Photos



## Knight Lights

In light of the recent acclaim of the M180-KL2 here:

http://candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=125872






Knight Lights, in collaboration with milkyspit, is proud to announce the M-Line!

The M-Line will consist of multiple LED models placed primarily in MagLites and MagLite compatible heads and will initially be presented with the M180, a triple luxeon light producing 180 lumens and running in a 2C with 2 18650 sized cells for more than 4 hours!

The line will also include an M240 version, and additional versions up to and including an M420 version are being considered. Milkyspit is also investigating family members (at last mention) as high as an M680.

This is the first long running, high output light available in large quantities that I am aware of.

Additional specifications for each light will be posted shortly, including run times, sizes, battery combinations and prices.

A sales thread will be shortly posted as well.

Bill


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## Knight Lights

*Project-M Runtime Chart*












*M180-KL2 Runtimes by Leef*

Fellow CPFer Leef took the time to chart runtime of his M180-KL2 head and the better of his two SureFire L6 flashlights. Both flashlights were running 3x123 fresh SureFire 123 cells. The charts show overall output of both lights and seem to approximate actual lumen output of the lights (divide his readings by ten). Note: according to Leef, the SureFire L6 in the test is an unusually good one.

*Overall Output vs. Runtime, M180-KL2 with Various Battery Options (Linear Scale)*





*Overall Output vs. Runtime, M180-KL2 vs. SF-L6 (Linear Scale)*





*Overall Output vs. Runtime, M180-KL2 vs. SF-L6 (Logarithmic Scale)*
_The logarithmic scale approximates the brightness differences that the human eye actually sees._





Leef states that at the 240 minute mark, both test subjects were still generating useful amounts of light.


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## MikeF

Just tell where and how much!! M420 or M512!!


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## Knight Lights

*Photos: M180 in Mag 2C Host*

_Incorporates Kiu Stainless Steel Bezel (normally not included)_





_Incorporates Kiu Stainless Steel Bezel (normally not included)_





_Compliments of MSaxatilus_





_Compliments of MSaxatilus_






*Photos: M180 in SureFire KL2 Host*

*Note: This is a very limited edition! The KL2 head has been long discontinued by SureFire, and as such is in short supply. However, if you've got one... this is what it could become!*











_On standard M3 body_





_On M3 body with SW02 tailswitch_





_SW02 tailswitch allows the light to stand upright_





_Beam Profile_





_Posterized... note that the oval shape is result of the light being held at an angle... the beam is perfectly round in reality!_





_Carpet_





_Real World: Midday Sun (left) vs. M180-KL2 (right)_






*M180-Mag2C vs. M180-KL2*











_Mag 2C vs. M3 body_





_Mag 2C vs. M3 with SW02 tailswitch_





_Bezel ends_






*Photos: M180 in SureFire KL2 Crenelated Host*

*SureFire customer service has assured me there is no such animal as a KL2 head with an M3-style, hard anodized crenelated bezel... then milkyspit somehow managed to receive TWO still in their unopened SureFire factory boxes. I don't know what to make of this! But it is pretty!! This is the way all KL2 heads should be. Photos courtesy of milkyspit.*

_The elusive crenelated KL2, sighted in the Milky Labs!_





_M180-KL2 crenelated business end. Note the ultra clear stock glass, barely visible in the photo._





_KL2 crenelated head profile_





_Underside showing the typical M series contact springs_





_M180-KL2 crenelated, mounted on a prototype C2M adapter and Surefire C2 body, with SW01 tailcap_





_Milky's personal M180-KL2 crenelated enjoying a fine autumn day_






*Photos: Kiessling's M180-KL2 Crenelated Jewelbox!*

*One-of-a-kind, built per specific request. The keys here are a black felt surface that sets off the reflectors like three jewels in a window, plus another of the ultra-rare crenelated bezel SureFire KL2 hosts. Photos courtesy of milkyspit.*

_Scotch Tape Spool, Rocks, Leaves Not Included_





_Yes, that's an M3-style crenelated hard anodized bezel on there..._





_Mounted on an M3 body_





_Beam profile_





_Milky Labs before and after powering up the Kiessling M180-KL2-Jewelbox_






*Photos: MSaxatilus' M180-M3*

*Turns out the M180 platform fits inside a SureFire M3 head as well. It's a fair amount more work to get everything just right since the head never was created to house LEDs and has no heatsinking bulkhead... plus a SureFire lamp assembly needs to be sacrificed to craft the dual-spring contact points underneath (burned-out LA works fine for this)... on the other hand, the heatsink is a solid aluminum slug a full half-inch thick!*

*Photos courtesy of MSaxatilus.*

_"What in the heck could it possibly be?"_





_Profile_










_Collage_















_Outdoors_ 











*Photos: MSaxatilus' M420-KT4 (M6 Host)*

*MSaxatilus placed the first-ever order for an M6 mod! Milkyspit is turning the KT4 turbohead on that light into an M420 and building a 2x18650 cell caddy for the body. The KT4 also fits M3 and M4 bodies. On 2x18650 cells, this combination should deliver 420 lumens continuous for about 2 hours. The head even includes an inch thick block of solid aluminum! Though milkyspit tells me it's not needed. :naughty:*

*That's one beautiful bezel.*

*Photos provided by Milkyspit.*

_Profile_





_Looking Into The Bezel_





*Additional photos provided by MSaxatilus.*

_Components with Bezel End of Head Visible_





_Components with Back End of Head Visible_





_Standing_





_Head End Closeup_






*Photos: M360 "Silver Guardian YS" Prototype*

*The M360 "Silver Guardian YS" is a prototype M360 light Milkyspit has built into a Mag 3C silver host powered by 12AA NiMH rechargeables. The stainless steel Kiu crown pictured is not typically part of the build. The "YS" designation refers to the two tiered, dual heatsink design that allows for the sixth reflector to sit recessed in the center of the head, thereby allowing for more emitters sitting in a smaller diameter. (Milky says it reminds him of Yankee Stadium [=YS]... he's a Yankee fan.) The Silver Guardian YS supports five brightness levels, all digitally controlled, as well as electronic lockout, temporary burst from any brightness level, and many other features. On 12AA Sanyo 2700mAh NiMH cells, the M360 at highest output should deliver 360 lumens continuous for more than 5 hours.*

*Photos provided by Milkyspit.*

_Looking Into The Head End_
_



_

_Profile_
_



_

_Closeup Showing the Two Tiers_


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## Knight Lights

*Additional Photos*






_Mag 2C with Kiu Stainless Steel Bezel vs. Mag 3D with FiveMega Head_





_Bezel View vs. Mag 3D with FiveMega Head_





_Same as above, different angle_





_FiveMega Head outfitted with 5x27mm smooth reflectors_





_Closer look with a pushbutton switch sitting on the lens_


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## Knight Lights

*Reserved for Additional Photos and Info.*


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## NewBie

What are the lux numbers at 1 meter?

Do you have any comparision beamshots, side-by-side in the same photo?

Your lumens, are these derated for loss of the reflector, and lumen loss due to heat, or are they just the lumens spec of the LED?


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## milkyspit

Hi Newbie! :wave:

Maybe I can address these... and if I do a bad job at it, PM me and I'll do my best to elaborate!

*Lux readings at 1M... *just took some quickly, so I would label these as preliminary specs, but they at least give a decent idea of things...

*M180-KL2* roughly 3000 lux at 1M.
*M180-Mag 2C* roughly 5260 lux at 1M.

Both lights feature a 3-up arrangement of emitters, and both happen to have emitters of same bin from the same lot. Note that the Mag 2C version posts substantially higher readings due to its use of 3x 20mm smooth reflectors, as opposed to the 3x 16mm orange peel reflectors of the KL2 version. Size limitations in the head preclude anything larger in the latter.

I won't even pretend that these lights could best a good incandescent bulb/reflector combination for throw, but they (the M180, et. al.) will produce quite a bit of light to the sides in addition to that throw... and pretty much wipe out the incandescents in terms of runtime... but that's the whole point of this design. These lights have been engineered for overall output and long continuous runtime... mainly, to be extremely efficient!

*Beamshots... *sorry, I don't have any side-by-side comparison beamshots at the moment... not that I never plan on having them! Just haven't done it yet. Well, that plus I really stink at taking beamshots! You have no idea the difficulty I had in just capturing ONE beam with any degree of reality. 

That said, Kiessling will be receiving an M180-KL2 and I have hopes that he will take a few comparative shots of that light vs. some of the others in his collection.

*Lumens... *these are based on Lumileds specs... in other words, they're EMITTER lumens (like bulb lumens for incans)... they are not derated for reflector loss. Neither are they derated for lumen loss due to heat, but these lights are extremely well heatsinked due to their design for long continuous runtime... if anything, the heatsinking represents serious overkill! and in extended field testing including continuous runs in the 30 minutes through 1 hour vicinity, there has been no noticeable loss of brightness. (Yes, I know the eye is far from the most sensitive instrument for such an observation, though in my defense I do get very picky about such things and have been known to do A-B tests over... and over... and over... to discern slight brightness differences. Plus for some reason my eyes seem to be unusually sensitive... maybe even TOO sensitive!) There has been no notable loss in brightness over extended runs, nor would I expect to see any given the thermal design of the hosts.

It's also worth mentioning that the emitters are driven at Lumileds spec... and in the case of the M512 are actually driven BELOW spec'd current. Output numbers in this case are derated based both on Lumileds' published lumens vs. current information, and DiFiorentino's Luxeon efficiency measurements at various currents.

Last but not least, I use the AVERAGE luminous output numbers in an effort not to overhype these lights.

As far as some additional data points, I have done extensive A-B dark room ceiling bounce testing of the M180 against various "known" (or at least reasonably trustworthy IMHO) benchmarks... this in lieu of formal integrating sphere testing, for which I have neither the funds nor the access unfortunately. Prior to A-B testing the lights are positioned to be at equal distances from the ceiling, and to center their hotspots at the same location on the ceiling. Alternating between A-B continues until the brighter light is discernable... or in some cases where my eyes cannot discern a brighter light with sufficient degree of confidence, the comparison is declared a dead heat. In some cases where one light appears brighter but only by a small amount, I reverse positions of the lights and repeat the test to check for bias due to slightly different positions and/or beam angles, and again, if the results do not remain consistent in the retest, the comparison is declared a dead heat.

The M180 pretty much wipes out the HDS U60; and pretty handily beats the SureFire U2, L5, and L2, all at highest outputs.

The M180 also beats a SureFire P90 lamp assembly using 3x123 fresh primaries (100% ZTS)... that light has a published spec of 105 lumens... and my understanding is those lumens DO take into account reflector loss, plus they're the lumens to be expected at midpoint of the light's runtime... in practice some folks far smarter than I have estimated that a P90 on fresh cells falls more in the 120-150 lumens range... if so, this is good evidence that the M180 is indeed at the very least in the ballpark of 180 lumens coming out the front of the light.

The M180 also beats the SureFire M3 using its LOLA on 3x123 fresh primary cells (100% ZTS)... the LOLA has a published spec of 125 lumens out the front (not bulb lumens), and I've been told, again by some people whose opinion I trust, that the actual luminous output with fresh cells is more like 150 lumens. Again good evidence that the M180 is generating output along the lines of its design spec.

Hope this helps! And sorry if some of my test methodology isn't exactly state of the art. I do the best with what I've got available. 



NewBie said:


> What are the lux numbers at 1 meter?
> 
> Do you have any comparision beamshots, side-by-side in the same photo?
> 
> Your lumens, are these derated for loss of the reflector, and lumen loss due to heat, or are they just the lumens spec of the LED?


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## milkyspit

MikeF, Knight Lights seems to be occupied at the moment... I'll PM ya in a couple minutes about this. Thanks! 



MikeF said:


> Just tell where and how much!! M420 or M512!!


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## Long John

Hello milky

Great explanation and nice lights:goodjob:.

Good luck from me and best regards

_____
Tom


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## milkyspit

Long John said:


> Hello milky
> 
> Great explanation and nice lights:goodjob:.
> 
> Good luck from me and best regards
> 
> _____
> Tom




Much appreciated Tom! Thanks! 

BTW, I'm not just a Project-M builder... I'm a Project-M user!


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## milkyspit

Added a few more battery configurations to the runtime chart... might need to refresh your browser page to see the new chart.
:thumbsup:


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## Knight Lights

btt


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## Archangel

I just finished a run-time of my M180 - which looks amazingly like milky's flat black one - running on 2x18650 LG 2400mAh. It was at full output at 5hours. I'm pretty sure i checked it at 5'15 and it was still at full output. (If i checked it, it was.) At 5'30 is was a lot dimmer than i was expecting considering it was at full output not that long before. I'll be conservative and call it a 5hour run-time, partly because that's a nice round number. 

As an aside, say i drain batteries, umm.. very low, but they recover above 3v (and climbing, albeit slowly), are they still good to go? I'll do a follow-up run-time test with them, but with the weekend starting tomorrow, it might not be any time soon. (EDIT: they charged up fine, so here's hoping...)


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## milkyspit

Archangel said:


> I just finished a run-time of my M180 - which looks amazingly like milky's flat black one - running on 2x18650 LG 2400mAh. It was at full output at 5hours. I'm pretty sure i checked it at 5'15 and it was still at full output. (If i checked it, it was.) At 5'30 is was a lot dimmer than i was expecting considering it was at full output not that long before. I'll be conservative and call it a 5hour run-time, partly because that's a nice round number.
> 
> As an aside, say i drain batteries, umm.. very low, but they recover above 3v (and climbing, albeit slowly), are they still good to go? I'll do a follow-up run-time test with them, but with the weekend starting tomorrow, it might not be any time soon. (EDIT: they charged up fine, so here's hoping...)




Archie, :wave: Interesting... the runtime chart predicts 4h42m with those cells. It's good to see that the estimates in the chart do indeed seem to have some connection with reality... in fact, they may be slightly conservative! :naughty:

MANY THANKS for taking the time to do that runtime test, and to share the results with folks!
:bow: :bow: :bow:

As for your battery question... the sudden dimming is probably due to the fact that the Li-ion chemistry pretty much falls off a cliff after it drops to something like 3.2V per cell (going from memory)... that would explain the sudden dimming. With unprotected cells, you really don't want to run them AT ALL once they dim like that! Get them to a charger immediately! Otherwise you risk destroying the cells.

Anyway, that's why I would typically suggest protected cells in these lights... they'll shut themselves down before overdischarge can occur... but as you've shown, unprotected has its merits, too... namely well over an hour of additional runtime! 


Thanks again!


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## KDOG3

So where can we get one of these lights?

Heck I'd just like one of the assemblies to put in a 6P!!!


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## milkyspit

KDOG3 said:


> So where can we get one of these lights?
> 
> Heck I'd just like one of the assemblies to put in a 6P!!!




Hi Dog,  I guess Knight Lights will be posting some sort of B/S/T sales thread at some point but I know he's been pretty busy with life in general the past week or so. In the meantime, there's no shame in PMing me directly! I can quote you a price for what you want. All I ask is that you give me a good idea of which light you're looking for and are sincere in your intention to buy... not that you'll HAVE to buy, but that you're prepared to if the numbers work out.

As a benchmark, I can tell you the M180 in a Mag 2C platform has been going for $225 and so far I've had no complaints as to it being a bad deal! 

The M180-KL2 is priced somewhere around $245 but this number can fluctuate up or down based on availability of the KL2 heads, which are kinda difficult to locate. Of course, anyone who *already has one* and wants it built into an M180 will end up saving a decent chunk of change since their price won't include the KL2 at all! :naughty:

It's still early in the work day... hope this was intelligible!


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## Archangel

Just wanted to add that the head of my M180 never got more than warm and the body seemed room temperature, which means that it soaked up a bit of the heat since metal usually feels cool if it's just sitting there.


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## Archangel

I managed another run-time sooner than i was expecting and noticed a flicker at 5'15. When i checked the output i could watch the numbers ticking down. Measuring the batteries, one was 2.8v and the other just under half that, so i may have damaged one of them the other day, though it could also be that whole "heat causes batteries to drain faster" thing. I'll see how it fares in my U-04. _EDIT: I'm not sure how, but i got over 4.5hours; methinks some Barbolight graphing is in order._

Someone'll need to test out a NiMH configuration. They don't make for a light torch, but you gotta like Ds. Is alkaline a viable option?


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## Mike Painter

This is so close to what I've been looking for. Long run time and bright.
Would the 2D version use a normal length body?
Would there be any chance of adding a dimmer of some sort? I would like two or three stages over the actual dimming.
How ever it would be worth carrying an extra light or a translucent snap-on lens for this L^3 = LLL = (Lovely Little Light)


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## Knight Lights

Archangel, sounds like you did damage one of your unprotected Li-ion cells. They don't like to drop below about 2.5 volts. Even if it runs normally, you should probably replace it as a safety precaution. As of a week or two ago, 4sevens was selling the LG unprotected 2400mAh cells at a very reasonable price.

BTW, 4.5 hours with a damaged cell is pretty impressive! 

Mike Painter, milky can build these into a Maglite of any length. Yes, the 2D does run in a stock body, but it could just as easily run in a modified body so long as the inside of the Mag head hasn't been changed in terms of its dimensions. With the larger (Mag 2D and 3D) builds, milky has been installing microcontrolled buck circuits that provide dimming capability, full power burst mode, automatic dimming and shutoff, etc. PM me if you're interested.


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## D MacAlpine

Hi Guys,

A couple of questions if you have a moment.

Is the price quoted for the KL2 just for the head on its own?
Is there any way of getting a 2 (or more) stage version of the KL2? (using a 2 stage switch perhaps?)
What is the outside diameter of the KL2?
How are the reflectors fixed in the head? (if that's not a trade secret)

Would the Digilight RX-9V head/T9 (or even T6?) body be a suitable host for an M180? (possible lower cost option???)

And

Can you really get 7 emitters in a KL2??? (runtime chart)

[I'm a bit shy of spending this much on a light, especially if I'm going to batter it around at work, but  ]

Don


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## Archangel

The M420 is in a Mag bezel. I'm pretty sure three is the limit for a KL2. I think that's the price for just the head. The rest someone else will have to answer.


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## milkyspit

Archangel said:


> D MacAlpine said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hi Guys,
> 
> A couple of questions if you have a moment.
> 
> Is the price quoted for the KL2 just for the head on its own?
> Is there any way of getting a 2 (or more) stage version of the KL2? (using a 2 stage switch perhaps?)
> What is the outside diameter of the KL2?
> How are the reflectors fixed in the head? (if that's not a trade secret)
> 
> Would the Digilight RX-9V head/T9 (or even T6?) body be a suitable host for an M180? (possible lower cost option???)
> 
> And
> 
> Can you really get 7 emitters in a KL2??? (runtime chart)
> 
> [I'm a bit shy of spending this much on a light, especially if I'm going to batter it around at work, but  ]
> 
> Don
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The M420 is in a Mag bezel. I'm pretty sure three is the limit for a KL2. I think that's the price for just the head. The rest someone else will have to answer.
Click to expand...


Thanks Archangel!  Yes, the price mentioned for the M180-KL2 is for the head itself, though I can find you a matching body if needed. Yes, M420 (7 emitters) fits in a Maglite head... the KL2 head could fit 7 emitters but not with reflectors of any appreciable size... so it would end up as the world's brightest flood beam!  Using 16mm reflectors, the KL2 head can house 3 emitters and pumps out a nice, muscular beam.

Yes, the M180-KL2 head could support multiple brightness levels, though not with a dual stage tailswitch... the more sensible way would be to incorporate a microcontroller circuit that handles such things more efficiently and requires nothing special in terms of the tailswitch. There are a couple possibilities right now plus I'm working on an early version of a single board to handle this sort of thing. For now, I would suggest a single brightness M180-KL2... in real world use, 180 lumens as delivered via the KL2 head tends to be useful for a wide variety of applications. It's a real workhorse of a light, the kind you'll find yourself picking up often.

Very roughly, outer diameter of the KL2 at the bezel is about 41mm.

There's a lens in front of the reflectors so they're protected plus held in place much as they would be in any other light. The lens has antireflective coating, so some of the photos make it look as if there isn't any! 

Never played with a Digilight RX-9V head, but you're welcome to send me one with the body of your choice and I'll see what I can do. PM if interested! 

As a lower cost option that could still take a beating, might I suggest a Mag 2C body? An M180 in Mag 2C would give you 4-5 hours using rechargeable Li-ion cells... many other combinations are possible, too... and you could pickup a hard anodized Mag 2C here on CPF for extra durability. In fact, I've got one spare hard anodized black Mag 2C that's available to the first person who wants it built into an M180, M240, or something similar! First come, first served folks! :naughty:


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## MSaxatilus

Milky,

Got a pick of that HA Mag 2C? That might wet peoples appetites.

MSax


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## milkyspit

*Last (and Best) of the KL2 Heads?
*
Looks like I've tapped out my known sources of KL2 heads... snagged a final couple from an army-navy store in Seattle. If anyone wants an M180-KL2 from here on, they would need to supply it... and if you're fortunate enough to have more than one, I'll offer you a partial credit on your build in exchange for your extra(s)!
:thumbsup:

Getting back to this last pair of KL2 heads, received last week... I opened the sealed SureFire boxes to be greeted by a little surprise... these KL2 heads did not have the usual black plastic bezel rings, but rather the same HARD ANODIZED ALUMINUM crenelated bezel rings as the M3! These heads aren't supposed to exist... it's like finding a unicorn munching on grass in your back yard!

The first of these mysterious KL2 heads is destined for Leef... here's some quick eye candy...

_The mythical crenelated bezel KL2... this wasn't supposed to exist!_ 






_Window shopping... yes, there really IS a window there even though it's not apparent in the photo._





_Profile of Leef's M180-KL2.
_





_Underside showing the typical pair of contact springs._





Leef, hope ya like it!


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## cd-card-biz

milkyspit - PM sent.


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## Knight Lights

Updated post number 4 in this thread with photos of an M180-KL2 with hard anodized, crenelated bezel. This particular head was not known to exist before.


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## milkyspit

cd-card-biz said:


> milkyspit - PM sent.



PM received. The M180 in hard anodized black Mag 2C is spoken for!


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## Archangel

Nice snag on the HA Mag. They're very well done. (I was going to post a pic, but seem to have misplaced my memory card.)


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## milkyspit

D MacAlpine said:


> Hi Guys,
> 
> A couple of questions if you have a moment.
> 
> Is the price quoted for the KL2 just for the head on its own?
> Is there any way of getting a 2 (or more) stage version of the KL2? (using a 2 stage switch perhaps?)
> What is the outside diameter of the KL2?
> How are the reflectors fixed in the head? (if that's not a trade secret)
> 
> Would the Digilight RX-9V head/T9 (or even T6?) body be a suitable host for an M180? (possible lower cost option???)
> 
> And
> 
> Can you really get 7 emitters in a KL2??? (runtime chart)
> 
> [I'm a bit shy of spending this much on a light, especially if I'm going to batter it around at work, but  ]
> 
> Don



Don, PM sent your way with some possibilities, in reply to your PM. Thanks.


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## Knight Lights

Added photos of Kiessling's M180-KL2-Jewelbox build to post number 4. Here's a preview...


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## Dizney

Milkyspit,

I've been searching through my stash of lights and found (2) new KL2 heads!!!! I knew these would be useful someday.....altho it's taken a few years. I'll PM with more info.

Thanks!


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## milkyspit

FYI: I just updated the runtime chart in post number 2 (or thereabouts)... main difference is some new entries under the KL2 section. Since the graphic hosts from my site, the new one ought to be visible immediately, though you might need to refresh your browser page to see it.
:thumbsup:

Scary but true: an M180-KL2 mounted on an M6 body should generate on average 180 lumens continuous for 6+ hours, although admittedly it would be a slightly goofy looking combo! 



Dizney said:


> Milkyspit,
> 
> I've been searching through my stash of lights and found (2) new KL2 heads!!!! I knew these would be useful someday.....altho it's taken a few years. I'll PM with more info.
> 
> Thanks!




*Dizney, *just replied to your PM. Thanks!


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## Knight Lights

Added Leef's M180-KL2 vs. SureFire L6 overall output and runtime charts to post number 2 of this thread. Example...


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## Leef

:goodjob:

In a nutshell, great lights! I have enjoyed using my M180 and working with Milky. He has good ideas, knows electronics, and does good work. I hope he'll continue to cook up new lights for us CPFers!


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## milkyspit

Updated the runtime chart in post number 2 of this thread to include AW's as-yet-unreleased C-sized protected Li-ion cells based on the tentative specs published by AW.

Incidentally, any owner of an M180 built in Mag 2C housing will be able to use the new AW C-sized cells (once available) simply by removing the 18650 sleeve that's currently in their lights.


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## Knight Lights

Milkyspit built MSaxatilus an M180 inside a SureFire M3 head.

MSax posted a great review with some great photos here... well worth a look!  
*Introducing the M180-M3!!! Lots of Pics!*

The photos have also been added to post number 4 of this thread.


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## MSaxatilus

Just to let you guys know, I also added a few pics of the M180-M3 with its sibling....

https://www.candlepowerforums.com/posts/1555791#post1555791


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## Ralf

Milky, nice lights so 

Did you use a self made LED-driver or a well known
driver?

Cheers
Ralf


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## milkyspit

Ralf said:


> Milky, nice lights so
> 
> Did you use a self made LED-driver or a well known
> driver?
> 
> Cheers
> Ralf




Thanks Ralf! Much appreciated. 

Driver*s*. Project-M is a family of lights and to reach peak efficiency, there are a few different drivers that might be used, some self-designed, others customizations I've requested of more well-known drivers. This is by necessity. There is no single driver that I'm aware of capable of the efficiency levels the project demands AND flexible enough to maintain that efficiency over the broad range of input and output voltages that the various hosts, battery types, and emitter configurations span!

Remember, it's not about some magic component or super emitter, it's about matching the right pieces in the right ways to make each light as a whole something special. Well-engineered (hopefully!) *lights*. It's not about the parts!


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## marxs

just curious, but how much output would the m180 put out if you ran 3 xbin luxeons at around 800-1000mah? just thinking here really...that would sound pretty nifty. not sure how much runtime would suffer.


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## Knight Lights

marxs,

It can be done, we can do it, but it's not a Project-M light.

That presents HUGE heat issues. Assuming you mean X bin LuxV's, output would be in the 600 Lumen range, but the light would get very hot very fast, decreasing the overall output. 

People have built these, but they are at odds with the whole idea of the M project, which is high outputs with long run times.

Three LuxV's running at 800 would run less than an hour on 2 LiIon cells by my calculations and the light body would get HOT!

Bill


----------



## Leef

BTW, guys, there are some fine photos here by Msaxatilus. Art and technology, hard to beat!


----------



## cd-card-biz

Just wondering here....

Which head would be considered the very best SF host for a Milky M180 - KL2 or stock M3? 

Thanks,
Bill


----------



## Knight Lights

Bill,

For looks or simply because?

The KL2 is easier to build out and less expensive, (IF we can find them!)

I like the crenellated M3's though.

Other than that, they are essentially the same, thought the heat sink in the M3 is thicker.


Bill


----------



## blahblahblah

cd-card-biz said:


> Just wondering here....
> 
> Which head would be considered the very best SF host for a Milky M180 - KL2 or stock M3?
> 
> Thanks,
> Bill



I have a KL2 M180 and it goes on my M3P body. The M3P's bezel is nice to have stock so I can switch to it if I should so desire. I've used the light daily for the past 10 days or so. I'm using it in close range and my only complaint is that it's too bright for close range.


----------



## blahblahblah

Knight Lights said:


> I like the crenellated M3's though.



For crenzellated bezels, I would prefer a REAL strike bezel. 

Maybe you can provide a pic of one while I'm on vacation next week or so???


----------



## bwaites

blah,

Here is the scalloped, which is shallow:

http://www.surefire.com/surefire/content/m3_large2.jpg

Here is the crenellated on top, which looks impressive:

http://www.surefire.com/surefire/content/m3_combo_large.jpg

Bill


----------



## cd-card-biz

Knight Lights said:


> Bill,
> For looks or simply because?
> 
> The KL2 is easier to build out and less expensive, (IF we can find them!)
> 
> I like the crenellated M3's though.
> 
> Other than that, they are essentially the same, thought the heat sink in the M3 is thicker.
> Bill


 
No, not for looks. Was thinking more along the lines of functionality. I just got a new M3 scalloped bezel as was considering an M180 treatment as finances permit. If the heat sink is bigger in the stock head, I'll probably stick with it.

Thanks for the info!

Bill


----------



## bwaites

Milky has to actually build the heat sinks for the M3 heads and he is using THICK aluminum for them.

Bill


----------



## Archangel

Did some run-time tests of my M180-Mag2C last week and didn't get around to posting them. I got a bit under/over - can't remember which - 4'30 on the 1800mAh 18650s that came installed. With the two sets of Tenergy 2200s i got 4'55. (smirk) Which sounds rather familiar. Doing the math, my 2400s probably lasted the expected 5'20. They make a good set for general use that you can charge whenever it's convenient, but they get dragged down too far when run to the end for that to be healthy in the long run.


----------



## cd-card-biz

Archangel said:


> With the two sets of Tenergy 2200s i got 4'55. (smirk) Which sounds rather familiar.


 
That is exactly the runtime I got on my 2C with the same cells....to the minute! 

The M180 is one of my favorite lights. I thought the 2C form factor might be a bit large, but not so. I actually like it a lot.

I was a little concerned about the pressure on the stock 2C tailcap with the 2x18650's. I was really having to crank the cap down to make contact. I picked up a Fivemega 2C "deep" tailcap, which is a work-of-art in itself. It adds a little to the length of the light (not much) and is a good, precise fit. Unfortunately, as I expected the HA doesn't match as the cap is more gray, but the two-tone look plus a better tailstand ability is fine with me.

Do you happen to know the maximum number of emitters that Milky can stuff into the 2C head? I want to go bigger with the 2C host if possible. 

Thanks,
Bill


----------



## Archangel

That is exactly the runtime I got on my 2C with the same cells....to the minute! Do you happen to know the maximum number of emitters that Milky can stuff into the 2C head? 
>>>
(grin) I know. I was going to quote the post but couldn't remember which thread it was in. As far as i know he can fit the same number in C as in D. If i'm remembering correctly, he's done six and thinks he could fit a seventh in the center. I think the HA-III is why we really have to crank down on the tailcap. I agree that it's a shame the C tailcap is a bit wobbly for tailstanding. Wonder why Mag didn't make it flat like the D.


----------



## cd-card-biz

Ah, that's why the <smirk> in your original post. I'm not too quick today.

I have a hunch there will be plenty of time for me to plan and save money for my next Milky "M" creation, since he's probably swamped with the MC2 project right now.

I also have a new M3 that's going to get the mod at some point.

Bill


----------



## milkyspit

cd-card-biz said:


> Ah, that's why the <smirk> in your original post. I'm not too quick today.
> 
> I have a hunch there will be plenty of time for me to plan and save money for my next Milky "M" creation, since he's probably swamped with the MC2 project right now.
> 
> I also have a new M3 that's going to get the mod at some point.
> 
> Bill



Oh no my friend!  I'm still building Project-M lights whenever folks want them, and if all parts are on hand, I can usually get your build out within a day or two, sometimes less. :naughty: The M180 in Mag 2C is particularly buildable on demand, and I'd have to agree on the form factor... I like it, too!  The KL2 and M3 versions are doable as well. BTW, I'm starting to run through the last of my stash of SWOH emitters and have very nearly exhausted the SXOH... so if you've a preference for one of these (which both have been really stellar performers, at least in this batch), might want to get an order in soon! oo:


And yes, the MC2 build is moving along nicely. By the time my family vacation is finished in the next few days, final assembly will move forward in earnest. Boards are already waiting for me, or so I'm told... and while on vacation I've actually scored some more of the surprisingly hard-to-get PVC housings! No joke! They're kinda hard to source!!


----------



## milkyspit

bwaites said:


> blah,
> 
> Here is the scalloped, which is shallow:
> 
> http://www.surefire.com/surefire/content/m3_large2.jpg
> 
> Here is the crenellated on top, which looks impressive:
> 
> http://www.surefire.com/surefire/content/m3_combo_large.jpg
> 
> Bill




Here are some inline photos so folks don't need to clickthrough to the linked images...

*"Here is the scalloped, which is shallow..."
*






_*"Here is the crenellated on top, which looks impressive..."
*(Photo also shows a flat bezel)
_


----------



## milkyspit

Lots to report today! :naughty:

First, guess it's no secret anymore, but I've begun construction of the first M420-M6, for MSaxatilus. This build uses seven emitters, each with its own McR-18 reflector, all sitting on a prodigious amount of heatsinking (not that it's needed, rather that there's lots of available space in that cavernous KT4 head!)... at least a full inch thick of SOLID aluminum! Surpisingly, it doesn't seem to add any meaningful amount to the overall weight of the light.
:thumbsup:

A couple quick photos...

_Profile
_





_Looking Into The Bezel
_





Next, Leef has gone through a number of runtime tests with his M180-KL2 and was kind enough to share his graphs. He also compares performance with his plum (as in very good, best one he's owned) L6.
:bow:

_Linear Scale. IMHO Easier to Read This One.
_





_Log Scale. Lots of Lines, A Little Busy (not Leef's fault! nature of this sort of graph) But More Attuned to What The Human Eye Might See.
_





Lots more going on, but hopefully this will suffice for now!


----------



## Long John

Hello Milky

:wow: This M420-M6 makes me speakless:goodjob:...:twothumbs...

Best regards

____
Tom


----------



## Knight Lights

Updated post number 2 with Leef's latest runtime graphs for the M180-KL2, which show various battery types on the same graph and the performance of an exceptionally good Surefire L6 flashlight for comparison.


----------



## MSaxatilus

:twothumbs 


Milky, 

*"MY" *M420-M6 looks awesome. Can't wait till you get that other board to fire it up. 

MSax


----------



## Knight Lights

Updated post number 4 with M420-KT4 (M6 host) photos.


----------



## cd-card-biz

....just when I thought I was truly happy and needed no more "big" lights.

Milkyspit and MSax - you two are a very bad influence. 

Be sure to post runtimes and beamshots when it's done...and I'll go put the house up for sale (sigh)...

:goodjob:


----------



## MSaxatilus

:naughty:


----------



## Justintoxicated

Those Better all be UXXJ/H 's!

Then I'll be impressed. If those are T bins.......

haha just kidding. Very nice light!


----------



## jtice

:bow: :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow:

WOW, some really amazing stuff going on here !!! WOW

EXCELENT work!

~John


----------



## Dizney

Milkyspit,

Yikes..... I thought the M180 you just sent to me was awesome but now I want a M420 too!! I gotta wait awhile because I have to pay for the 2 Mag mods you're working on.


----------



## Knight Lights

MSax,

I'm not sure that milkyspit has told you yet, but this IS the first of the 420 series and as such must serve as the photo prototype!

It will have to come out to Washington State before it is released into the wilds of CPF members so that we can get professional photos done. In fact, our photographer is avidly awaiting it's completion with a brand new camera and lens!

It shouldn't take but about a week to get the photos taken, (well, 2 weeks tops!) once milkyspit has completed the build. This will also allow 3rd party verification that the build is suitable and safe for CPF consumption!!

Bill


----------



## MSaxatilus

> :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow:
> 
> WOW, some really amazing stuff going on here !!! WOW
> 
> EXCELENT work!
> 
> ~John



John,

Coming from you, this is really great praise!! Thanks, but really all the credit belongs to Milky. He's the man when it comes to these builds.

Will,



> It will have to come out to Washington State before it is released into the wilds of CPF members so that we can get professional photos done. In fact, our photographer is avidly awaiting it's completion with a brand new camera and lens!



Considering I'm only an hour drive to Milky's house, and by now the car knows the drive, I'd definitely beat you to the punch.

Seriously though, if you want to take a look at this monster, send me a PM. I'm sure we can work something out.

MSax


----------



## cd-card-biz

I can't quite tell from the M420 picture, is that a deep crenelated bezel or the more scalloped type?


----------



## milkyspit

cd-card-biz said:


> I can't quite tell from the M420 picture, is that a deep crenelated bezel or the more scalloped type?



Looks like scalloped to me, but it's MSaxatilus' light. Msax?


----------



## nobody

I received the M180-KL2 yesterday. My initial impression is that I now have a new favorite working light. Appears to be a perfect balance of high output and long flat runtime. The quantity and quality of light gives me new hope for LED lighting in general.

If anyone else has been holding onto their old stock KL2 for all these years like I did, now would be a good time to turn it into a USEFUL light that should easily outperform any stock L6. Milky has demonstrated some impressive engineering and fabrication chops here.


----------



## MSaxatilus

> Looks like scalloped to me, but it's MSaxatilus' light. Msax?



Scalloped.


----------



## milkyspit

Look what grew in the garden near the cistern! :naughty:






Let's see... that's FIVE KL2 heads and ONE M3 head. If you've wanted an M180-KL2 or M180-M3, now's the time! First come first served! PM me with interest.

Allocation...

M180-KL2 #1 SCALLOPED: *Milkyspit* (sold my previous personal light, dangit!) oo:
M180-KL2 #2: nobody
M180-KL2 #3: Dizney
M180-KL2 #4: rdh226
M180-KL2 #5: Leef
M180-KL2 #6: Jack4369
M180-M3 #1: MSaxatilus

It's always a guess as to when, or WHETHER, I'll find any more KL2 heads, but these I do have here in the Milky Labs!


----------



## KDOG3

I'm wonder if someone can build me a regulated LED assembly to fit in a 6P or G2 that would allow the bezel to close completely. I would love the output to be 70+ lumens.


----------



## rdh226

milkyspit said:


> Look what grew in the garden near the cistern! :naughty:
> 
> M180-KL2 #4: ???
> M180-KL2 #5: ???
> M180-KL2 #6: ???


I'll sign up for one.

Did you get my PM wrt M420 (in which I'm also _very_ interested)?

-RDH


----------



## Jack4369

PM sent for KL2 , please check it !  
Thanks
Jack


----------



## milkyspit

*Leef, rdh226, and Jack4369, *pending Paypal the last M180-KL2 heads are going to you! :naughty:


Thanks guys!


----------



## blahblahblah

milkyspit said:


> Allocation...
> 
> M180-KL2 #1 SCALLOPED: *Milkyspit* (sold my previous personal light, dangit!) oo:




Have no fear... it's being put to use almost every day. It's also in good company. I use a Ti-PD when I don't want as much blinding light.

Since I just use the light in short bursts, I've still been on the same set of batteries! This light just won't die!


----------



## milkyspit

Started the day rebuilding the business end of the M360 Silver Guardian (because JEFFT got the guts of the previous one!)... decided to try some new techniques and snapped a few photos of the results. The main change here is use of Mc-R18 reflectors rather than Mc-R16's... and since only five of those fit around the circumference of a Mag head, the sixth had to be put somewhere... think Yankee Stadium and the upper deck, lower deck arrangement of the seating... 

_The *M360 Silver Guardian YS *sitting on a pair of other Project-M lights._





_Profile of *M360 Silver Guardian YS.*_





_Closeup of the reflector arrangement. The center reflector isn't smaller...
it's on its own lower deck heatsink! (Two tiers of heatsinks.)
_





Like its predecessor, the *Silver Guardian II YS *is powered by 12AA NiMH Sanyo 2700mAh rechargeables, with runtime at highest output roughly 5h17m and runtime at the 180 lumens level roughly 10h34m.


----------



## jtice

sssssssssssssssssSWEET man !!!!!!!!


----------



## Archangel

(grin) Not too shabby. That's a 3D? What's the YS stand for? If you're cutting the current in half, why isn't low mode closer to 250lm? Is there a flood reflector available that could be used in the center spot so that LED could contribute more to the spill than the hot spot?


----------



## MSaxatilus

SWEET!!!


----------



## bwaites

Archangel, probably not a reflector, but certainly there are some optics that are close to that size and would provide a great flood!

Bill


----------



## Archangel

An optic works for me. BTW, i'm assuming the two modes of the YS are three and six LEDs at "full power" instead of all six at two different currents.


----------



## milkyspit

Archangel said:


> (grin) Not too shabby. That's a 3D? What's the YS stand for? If you're cutting the current in half, why isn't low mode closer to 250lm? Is there a flood reflector available that could be used in the center spot so that LED could contribute more to the spill than the hot spot?


DUDE!  Lots of questions. Okay, here goes... 

Yes, the host is a Mag 3D with Kiu stainless steel crown.

YS = Yankee Stadium. With apologies to Boston Red Sox fans. 

I didn't say the current was being cut in half... was just providing a runtime estimate at the 180 lumens level... and who said anything about only two levels? This one has five levels! :naughty:

Believe it or not, an emitter mounted in a short length of white PVC does a great job of producing a big, super-even ball of light... that would do nicely to increase intensity of the sidespill.



Archangel said:


> BTW, i'm assuming the two modes of the YS are three and six LEDs at "full power" instead of all six at two different currents.


 
Not in this light. This one's got five levels of brightness, and all the emitters act together growing brighter or dimmer, which keeps the beam symmetrical.


----------



## jefft

Scott, just received my Silver Guardian M360 yesterday along with the MC2s that I ordered. I'm unfortunately on a 40hr work day and was only able to load up one MC2 before I got called back into work. Hopefully, I'll get home in the next 10 hours and get a chance to load cells into the M360 up and test it out. I looks great, though!!! Build quality is impeccable. I'm happy just looking at it with it turned off! (BTW, I like the lanyard attachment. I think that would be a good option for all Mag hosts)


----------



## Archangel

Is the lanyard attachment the Leef ring that lighthound is selling?


----------



## milkyspit

jefft said:


> Scott, just received my Silver Guardian M360 yesterday along with the MC2s that I ordered. I'm unfortunately on a 40hr work day and was only able to load up one MC2 before I got called back into work. Hopefully, I'll get home in the next 10 hours and get a chance to load cells into the M360 up and test it out. I looks great, though!!! Build quality is impeccable. I'm happy just looking at it with it turned off! (BTW, I like the lanyard attachment. I think that would be a good option for all Mag hosts)



Glad you received the items! Let me know how they work out for you. 



Archangel said:


> Is the lanyard attachment the Leef ring that lighthound is selling?



Yes, the lanyard attachment is a Leef ring. I had the privilege of beta testing these, I guess. 

Very nice product! I have some for use on my builds, and Lighthound is selling them individually *over here*.


----------



## Knight Lights

Added runtime chart for M180-KL2 using several different battery options. Note the runtime of a single 18650 cell.


----------



## jtice

Damn fine regulation 

Great runtime on the single 18650 cell, gotta love that cell, thats what I run my L5 on.
But, there is no 2x123 size body that fits the KL2 though, is there?

What is the difference between the modded KL2 and M3 heads?
Do they use the same reflectors?

How hard can this setup, be set to drive each LED?

I really like the look of the new M3,
but for a light that size, I want it to be really bright.
Bright enough to devastate my L5.

~John


----------



## jtice

arrrg ,,, double post


----------



## Knight Lights

Added several new photos to post number 4. Two examples...


----------



## MSaxatilus

> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Archangel*
> _Is the lanyard attachment the Leef ring that lighthound is selling?_
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, the lanyard attachment is a Leef ring. I had the privilege of beta testing these, I guess.
> 
> Very nice product! I have some for use on my builds, and Lighthound is selling them individually *over here*.


 
Does Leef have any plans on building a "C" sized version of those rings?


----------



## Archangel

If not, he should.


MSaxatilus said:


> Does Leef have any plans on building a "C" sized version of those rings?


----------



## jtice

oh BTW,

When are these adaptors avalible !?!?! 





~John


----------



## milkyspit

Archangel said:


> If not, he should.
> 
> 
> MSaxatilus said:
> 
> 
> 
> Does Leef have any plans on building a "C" sized version of those rings?
Click to expand...


Yes!  Leef has already made a "C" sized version. I have some myself... again, for use in conjunction with my builds... and I believe Lighthound will be selling them individually, though they don't seem to have made it to his website yet.
:thinking:


----------



## milkyspit

jtice said:


> Damn fine regulation
> 
> Great runtime on the single 18650 cell, gotta love that cell, thats what I run my L5 on.
> But, there is no 2x123 size body that fits the KL2 though, is there?
> 
> What is the difference between the modded KL2 and M3 heads?
> Do they use the same reflectors?
> 
> How hard can this setup, be set to drive each LED?
> 
> I really like the look of the new M3,
> but for a light that size, I want it to be really bright.
> Bright enough to devastate my L5.
> 
> ~John




*Jtice, *thanks! 

I'm collaborating with a fellow CPFer on a 1x18650 body specifically designed for Project-M... KL2, M3, and KT4 heads will all fit it just fine... it will look a bit different from this photo (which is a VERY early prototype), but this should at least give the general idea... goal is simplicity, strength, and size (or lack thereof)...






As far as really bright, Leef did a comparison of his M180-KL2 vs. the better of his two L6 flashlights, which he describes as an above average L6... and that in turn should also mean above average for an L5 as well... note that the M180 on 2x123 primaries outperforms Leef's plum L6 on 3x123 primaries...






I can build these heads brighter, too, but they fail to meet the standards of Project-M. Maybe Knight Lights can elaborate on what those standards are... for some bizarre reason it's my concept and yet he explains it better!  Suffice to say, Project-M is all about high output with extreme efficiency.

The extreme output but non-Project M lights bear an "X" designation. For example, recently I built an X510 in an M3 head, using the same 3-reflector design as the M180-M3 but with LuxV WYOS emitters. It really pushes the circuitry and the power source itself to their limits... in fact, in the case of the regulation circuitry, a little BEYOND their limits. oo: However, it's one seriously bright little fellow! Leef reports that it's the second brightest LED light he's ever measured, beaten only by his quad-LuxV, severely overdriven Lion King... which is also in the much larger Mag 2C housing. :naughty:

I'm currently building an X700 for another CPFer... that one's essentially the same as the M420-M6 but driven harder.

Difference between M180-KL2 and M180-M3? Not all that much... the M3 typically has a scalloped bezel and the KL2 does not... the M3 has a half-inch thick solid aluminum heatsink inside, while the KL2 has substantially less heatsinking (but runtime tests show the additional heatsinking isn't necessarily needed) and is a slightly more compact head... from a practical standpoint, the KL2 has been long-discontinued by Surefire and can be pretty difficult to locate these days.


----------



## milkyspit

jtice said:


> oh BTW,
> 
> When are these adaptors avalible !?!?!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ~John



*John, *best guess would be about 2 weeks.


----------



## jtice

Scott,

Thanks alot for the answers.
That runtime he did,,, what setup is that? What current are the leds driven at there?

I do understand you concept, and it seems you have matered it, these are VERY well regulated, damn fine work.
While I agree, I also factor in a lights size to output ratio.
For me, the larger the light, the brighter it has to be, to justify me using its larger size.
Not that the M3 is a huge light or anything.

Bottom line, I am sold, and I want an M3 mod, lets work something out.  lol
I replied to your last PM also 

~John


----------



## MSaxatilus

I just checked Lighthound's website. Those "C" sized rings are available everybody!:naughty: 

MSax


----------



## Kiessling

Interested in that adaptor, too! 
Will it be HA-NAT?
bernie


----------



## jtice

... the C2M ones?
I cant seem to fine them. i only see the E2C


----------



## Archangel

MSax means the Leef rings.


----------



## jtice

ohhhhhhhhh


----------



## milkyspit

Bernie, yes, the finished product will be HA-NAT. 




Kiessling said:


> Interested in that adaptor, too!
> Will it be HA-NAT?
> bernie


----------



## milkyspit

Here's a photo of the second prototype of the upcoming Project-M 1x18650 body...







I also updated the master runtime chart for M180 with Leef's latest, which adds 2x18650 protected cells to the mix...


----------



## jtice

Has anyone done any testing with the 2 stage switch.
Read in another thread that you were thinking it would NOT work?

I am in the process of finding an M3 
Or, do you have any ready to mod Scott?
I have to have one of these. But I think I am going to have you set the current up a bit.
I have an L5 and U2, and if the M3 is not alot brighter, I am afraid I will end up grabingthe L5 more often, 
do to its smaller size, and maybe better output to size ratio.
For me, output to size ratio is important. Not that the M3 is a huge light, but I would like it to "own" me L5 

~John


----------



## milkyspit

jtice said:


> Has anyone done any testing with the 2 stage switch.
> Read in another thread that you were thinking it would NOT work?
> 
> I am in the process of finding an M3
> Or, do you have any ready to mod Scott?
> I have to have one of these. But I think I am going to have you set the current up a bit.
> I have an L5 and U2, and if the M3 is not alot brighter, I am afraid I will end up grabingthe L5 more often,
> do to its smaller size, and maybe better output to size ratio.
> For me, output to size ratio is important. Not that the M3 is a huge light, but I would like it to "own" me L5
> 
> ~John


Well... okay. *X300 *it is!  The X300 would have roughly *300 lumens output *but also would have about *half the runtime *of the M180 with all cell types. It physically looks exactly the same as an M180 build. As for the M3, I do have a brand new M3 body...

Regarding dual stage switch, I don't recommend them as they would be incredibly inefficient with this circuit... and quite possibly kill the low beam resistor in the switch or on a really bad day, quite possibly kill the circuit itself. That said, I'm hoping the first of my multiple output boards (which are designed to work with stock single stage Surefire switches) will be available in the next 2-3 weeks. 

*Also have an M180-KL2 built with SWOH emitters up for grabs. Price on that one is $245 plus shipping. (First come, first served.)
*


----------



## Lurveleven

Nice looking!

Looking at the runtime chart I got quite surprised to see how well the 2 x 750 mAh 14500 setup did, it has less rated energy than a single 18650 cell but runs longer, I thought it was because of converter efficency, but when comparing to the 2 x 18650 setup it still performs much better than what I would expect it to do. Comparing the setup to the 2 x 18650 setup I would say that the setup was a 2 x 1100 mAh 17500 setup.

Sigbjoern


----------



## milkyspit

Lurveleven said:


> Nice looking!
> 
> Looking at the runtime chart I got quite surprised to see how well the 2 x 750 mAh 14500 setup did, it has less rated energy than a single 18650 cell but runs longer, I thought it was because of converter efficency, but when comparing to the 2 x 18650 setup it still performs much better than what I would expect it to do. Comparing the setup to the 2 x 18650 setup I would say that the setup was a 2 x 1100 mAh 17500 setup.
> 
> Sigbjoern



* Sigbjoern, *that makes sense. Leef has provided the chart and it's entirely possible that he actually tested *2x17500 1100mAh cells, not the 2x14500 750mAh cells *he's got listed. This also makes sense given that the available bodies would fit 2x17500 easily, but not 2x14500... the latter would require some sort of sleeve. Any ideas Leef?
:shrug:


----------



## milkyspit

*More On The Limited Edition!
*
Got some good stuff in the hopper at the moment! :naughty:

1. Some new boards are in final stages of development.

2. C2M adapter is a couple weeks away!

 3. *The first flashlight body designed specifically for Project-M... *this will be a limited edition (tentatively thinking 50 pieces, but 100 would drive down pricing for all)... the M-1x18650-C body, a Project-M exclusive! It's possible one of our well-known online retailers will sell a similar body, but the ones designed for Project-M will be juiced up a little, heh heh. 

Fiddling around with Photoshop today, here's a more complete (but still not necessarily final!) design rendering of what the limited edition Project-M 1x18650 body will look like...

_Project-M 1x18650 Limited Edition Design Prototype_





As the name implies, 1x18650 ought to slide into this body nicely. 

This body should also work fine with 2x123 primaries, 1x17670 Li-ion, and 2xRCR123 Li-ion rechargeables.

For those wishing to run 2x17500 rechargeables or 3x123 primaries, the body ought to be compatible with the Detonator 123 cell extender from Lighthound, shown here...

_Lighthound's Detonator 123 Extender_


----------



## Kiessling

Better and better. 
Some flange at the tail end would be nice to counterbalance the head and allow for lanyard or clip attachment IMHO.
As would be some structure to the transition body --> head as it is too plain when compared to the rest, again IMHO.
bernie


----------



## milkyspit

Kiessling said:


> Better and better.
> Some flange at the tail end would be nice to counterbalance the head and allow for lanyard or clip attachment IMHO.
> As would be some structure to the transition body --> head as it is too plain when compared to the rest, again IMHO.
> bernie



*Bernie, *thanks for the comments. You're an experienced hand with SureFire stuff! Take another look at the above post, possibly refresh your browser... while you were writing this, I was editing what I listed. It probably addresses some (though not all) the points you brought up.


----------



## KDOG3

Good grief this place is going to make me go broke. I'm in the process of selling off some more stuff I don't use and a Dell Axim PDA (which I don't really use either) then I'll be ready to get one of these crazy mods! I've got another wild idea - imagine an McR-38 based head on this body! That would be some WICKED throw. 

What logo are you going to put on these bodies?

I'd like to visit the MilkyLabs sometime, where in Jersey are you located?


----------



## karlthev

Hmmm anybody mention $ yet and I missed it....?


Karl


----------



## D MacAlpine

milkyspit said:


> Well... okay. *X300 *it is!  The X300 would have roughly *300 lumens output *but also would have about *half the runtime *of the M180 with all cell types. It physically looks exactly the same as an M180 build.
> 
> ..., I'm hoping the first of my multiple output boards (which are designed to work with stock single stage Surefire switches) will be available in the next 2-3 weeks.


Noooooooooooooo! Another mod to lust after!!!

Would the X300 be compatible with your new boards? Will it be suitable for continuous running, or is it short bursts only due to heating?


----------



## jtice

An X300 sounds gooooood 

Seems it would still get about an hour on a single 18650, or 2 14500 cells, I would be happy with that.

Same questions as D MacAlpine though, could the light handle continuous use?

Also, are your multiple level boards going to be capable of making an X300?
If so,, I am tempted to wait on those 

~John


----------



## Flashdark

*What jtice said!*

*M180/KL-2/Multiple level, X300+/M3/Multiple level, X700/KT-4/Multiple level.*

*Go Milky! Go Milky! Go Milky!*

*Flashdark sends, salivating and expectant!!!*


----------



## milkyspit

karlthev said:


> Hmmm anybody mention $ yet and I missed it....?
> 
> Karl


*Karl, *price of what specifically?



D MacAlpine said:


> Noooooooooooooo! Another mod to lust after!!!
> 
> Would the X300 be compatible with your new boards? Will it be suitable for continuous running, or is it short bursts only due to heating?


*D MacAlpine, *yes compatible with new the upcoming boards, and yes suitable for continuous running... in fact, even the X510 that I made Leef was suitable for continuous run start to finish, according to his runtime tests... and that generates a LOT more heat than an X300. Remember, the X300 is only consuming about 8W of power, and that *includes *converter inefficiency. There's likely to be less heat than you might expect, actually. :naughty:



jtice said:


> An X300 sounds gooooood
> 
> Seems it would still get about an hour on a single 18650, or 2 14500 cells, I would be happy with that.
> 
> Same questions as D MacAlpine though, could the light handle continuous use?
> 
> Also, are your multiple level boards going to be capable of making an X300?
> If so,, I am tempted to wait on those
> 
> ~John


John, I think Leef meant 2 *17500 *cells. Anyway, see the response to D MacAlpine above. As for the controller, that's still a bit away... I just hate to make plans with folks on an item that doesn't exist in my hands in a production-ready state... there's too much that could change or go wrong! Any Project-M light that's been built to date should be retrofittable with the new board at a price substantially lower than buying a new head... in fact, the emitters and reflectors most likely won't need any changes at all, it's just a matter of removing the old board (which is sometimes potted unfortunately) and installing the new one.

I also want to be upfront with folks... the new board is likely to lose about 5% efficiency, so it will typically run around 85-90% efficient as opposed to 90-95% efficiency of the single level boards. This is mainly a byproduct of running a microcontroller in conjunction with the regulation circuitry... essentially the price one pays for incorporating so much additional functionality into the board... so IMHO there's still a place for the single brightness lights! Personally, I find my M180-KL2 is the light I grab more than any other these days, especially if I need to venture outside... even with eyes used to indoor lighting, I find the M180 has enough punch to give me excellent visibility from the first step out the back door... and yet, somehow it never seems TOO bright! Just right, and a great workhorse of a utilility light, at least for me.


----------



## karlthev

...


----------



## karlthev

Sorry...a bit distracted here....  


Karl


----------



## jtice

Wow, the controller boards my be able to be swapped into an existing M180, X300 fairly easy? very nice 

ah yes, 2 17500 cells, heh, funny, thats what I had in my head when I saw the chart, and typed my post LOL






~John


----------



## D MacAlpine

milkyspit said:


> *D MacAlpine, *yes compatible with new the upcoming boards, and yes suitable for continuous running... in fact, even the X510 that I made Leef was suitable for continuous run start to finish, according to his runtime tests... and that generates a LOT more heat than an X300. Remember, the X300 is only consuming about 8W of power, and that *includes *converter inefficiency. There's likely to be less heat than you might expect, actually. :naughty:


 

   

PM sent...

Don


----------



## milkyspit

Just posted pics of a one-of-a-kind M180-M3-KL2 hybrid that's currently available... posted over in the Knight Lights Milky mods thread... $265 gets it and I toss in the shipping free of charge. Quick preview... which also shows what a terrible photographer I really am! oo:






The early bird gets the worm on this! PM me with interest. Read more about this head *over here*.


----------



## jtice

Im confused, why is it one of a kind? M3/KL2 ? :thinking:

BTW,,, stop teasing me.
wheres my M3 x300?  hehehe


----------



## jtice

NM, just read your description of it in the other thread 
Nice work :thumbsup:

~John


----------



## Leef

Hmmm...:huh2:

Regarding the apparent discrepancy pointed out in post #111 (2x14500 having longer run time than 1x18650), I have no explanation for this. I went back and reviewed my notes and I correctly transcribed to the graph what I wrote in my notes. I agree -- it doesn't make sense. I should have noticed this. 

So, what to do? Simple -- I'll do those two run time tests again...stay tuned.


----------



## milkyspit

Leef has provided an updated M180 runtime chart that resolves the question of 14500 vs. 17500... the 14500s were removed and 17500s retested as it seemed the original labeling was in error. The runtime post (#2?) has been updated with the latest chart, which is this one...






One tip in reading the chart: the runtimes which suddenly plunge to zero are indicative of Li-ion PROTECTED cells, and represent the cells' overdischarge protection circuitry stopping current flow to the light. The M180 circuitry would happily keep going to the bitter end (of the cell in this case). Tests using PRIMARY (non-rechargeable) cells tend to have a long, gradual tail that indicates the cells' diminishing ability to ramp up current to compensate for falling input voltage... in these cases, the M180 circuitry will keep generating as much light as it can for as long as it can, subject to the limits of the primary cells themselves.

See the sudden drop in the 3x123 primary curve, followed by a brief plateau at a lower level then a more gradual, steady decline? This probably indicates that one of the 123 cells failed (which is pretty common), plunging that cell's voltage to zero... actually worse than that, as the failed cell puts a drag on the others. No explosive risk in this case as the surviving cells were most likely too depleted to force enough reverse current flow through the failed cell to cause problems. Each 123 primary cell potentially represents a point of failure (routine, not explosive) so the more 123 cells in this or any light, the more likely that light will suddenly go out. oo:

2x123 primaries is a particularly nice curve.


----------



## Archangel

Every time i've bothered to check multi-cell lights after they've been used for a decent period it's the hot cell - the one by the head - that's the weak one, so i'm guessing a more gradual tail could be achieved by swapping the front and rear cells.


----------



## milkyspit

Archangel said:


> Every time i've bothered to check multi-cell lights after they've been used for a decent period it's the hot cell - the one by the head - that's the weak one, so i'm guessing a more gradual tail could be achieved by swapping the front and rear cells.



The thing is, an M180 just doesn't get very hot... in fact, it doesn't even get very warm! I'd bet the front cell tends to fail more frequently than the others because it doesn't get a partial recharge while running... yes, PARTIAL RECHARGE. I'm having a minor revelation as I write this so please consider it thinking out loud! oo:

Electricity actually flows from NEGATIVE to POSITIVE. That would mean as electrons flow out the bottoms of the cells toward the tail, there are new electrons flowing INTO the button tops of those cells from the cells behind them. There's also some pressure on those electrons, meaning voltage (essentially pressure) pumping the incoming electrons into the cells... but not for the front (closest to head) cell... by the time the electrons reach that one, there isn't any pressure left... the voltage drop due to the circuitry has left THOSE electrons with a 0 volt potential... no pressure. The headmost cell wouldn't get the same benefit of partial recharge as the cells farther down the stack.

Bottom line if the above is correct, would be that *you're right, Archie, *but for the wrong reason! 

Anyway, just an idle thought.


----------



## milkyspit

Updated the runtime chart to break out SureFire bodies in the same way the Mag bodies have been broken out into their own sections in the past. Also added, corrected and removed a few configurations. New chart appears in the usual place toward the top of the thread, and is copied here for convenience...


----------



## Archangel

Before anyone asks, i think the cyan rows are just to help follow across, since things are divided into threes.


----------



## blahblahblah

Rambling thoughts:

I like my M180. It seems to be running so efficiently compared to most of my other lights. The head stays comparatively cool, yet produces LOTS of lumens. I attribute this to good design and just running at efficient levels.

I've been reading about the Cree XR-E leds. The Q3 bin offers 93.9-100.4 lumens, so let's say 95 lumens at spec. Since these are not out until later this month, some assuming has to be done and trusting of the mfg's specs. I believe the McR 19mm reflector is made for Cree's 7090 LEDs, although a bit floody. The color binning looks somewhat similar to Luxeon's.

So will there be Project-M of the Cree variety??? 

What will the possibilities be? An X series w/ 160 lumens per die (about 3.6vf and 700ma). 1120 Lumens in a Mag body using 7 led optics? Or a long runtime driven at 350ma, but still producing 665 lumens?

I'm done rambling... thanks for listening... now I need some coffee this morning.


----------



## milkyspit

blahblahblah said:


> Rambling thoughts:
> 
> I like my M180. It seems to be running so efficiently compared to most of my other lights. The head stays comparatively cool, yet produces LOTS of lumens. I attribute this to good design and just running at efficient levels.
> 
> I've been reading about the Cree XR-E leds. The Q3 bin offers 93.9-100.4 lumens, so let's say 95 lumens at spec. Since these are not out until later this month, some assuming has to be done and trusting of the mfg's specs. I believe the McR 19mm reflector is made for Cree's 7090 LEDs, although a bit floody. The color binning looks somewhat similar to Luxeon's.
> 
> So will there be Project-M of the Cree variety???
> 
> What will the possibilities be? An X series w/ 160 lumens per die (about 3.6vf and 700ma). 1120 Lumens in a Mag body using 7 led optics? Or a long runtime driven at 350ma, but still producing 665 lumens?
> 
> I'm done rambling... thanks for listening... now I need some coffee this morning.



Blah, I've spent some time poring over the Cree datasheets and from what I can see, we're looking at roughly 84 lumens per watt as opposed to 60 lumens per watt from the Luxeon emitters currently in use. Trouble is, at the moment the Cree 7090 XR-E is vaporware, especially in the Q3 bin that Project-M would want to use! Likewise, there isn't currently much of a selection by way of optics and reflectors, and none that I would consider compelling. oo:

On the other hand, I want to say that Project-M will see use of these... the whole point of the project is after all the engineering of high brightness coupled with extreme efficiency... just that there are some hurdles to pass before we'll see a Cree-based Project-M light. The XR-E in Q3 bin needs to become available in quantity from a reliable domestic source (sure hope it's not Future!), at an affordable price. I would need some to play with, learn their characteristics, put together a couple prototype lights. Also need to locate or design some really good optics and/or reflectors that will be a good fit in the various Project-M builds.

Anyway, these things aren't forever so I suspect it will happen... just a matter of when! When that day comes, the M180 would theoretically become an M252, with no diminishment of runtime, and so forth up the line. 

Before everyone starts saving up for these nifty Project-M Cree lights, though, remember: we're talking about lights that are so far into the future that I honestly can't even offer a timeline. Could easily be a year or more! If development of the Luxeon is any guide, the first appearance of small dribs and drabs of an exceptional part is all well and good, but just the first step in the journey... in the meantime, I've got no complaints about my personal M180 workhorse light, and hope nobody else does, either! 

Oh, and today I scored another couple KL2 heads. Anyone in line for one with all the usual refinements?


----------



## russtang

PM sent, Milky :wave:


----------



## milkyspit

russtang said:


> PM sent, Milky :wave:



Russ, PM replied. :thumbsup:


----------



## marcdilnutt

Hi scott. Did you get anywhere with the M1 mod we were discussing? I have nearly given up on getting mine open and was wondering if you can shed any light on it. 
Marc


----------



## milkyspit

marcdilnutt said:


> Hi scott. Did you get anywhere with the M1 mod we were discussing? I have nearly given up on getting mine open and was wondering if you can shed any light on it.
> Marc



Marc, did you mean you want to explore the prospect of me building something into your M1, or you want to know some secret formula for how to open it yourself?


----------



## marcdilnutt

What do you think the possibility of nodding one is? You said you were waiting for one from someone else so you could investigate, i was wondering if you got anywhere with it? I presume that the two parts are threaded together but i cant seem to break the loctite on mine. I want to build a bombproof single cell light and this seems to be the perfect host but i cant get into it. If you have done it before then i will gladly send it to you in a couple of weeks, if the price is right, but i would like to try my hand at modding it myself. Also did you put loctite on the m180 kl2 bezel because i have an m3 bezel i would like to swap on to it. Thanks, marc.


----------



## nakahoshi

Pm sent


----------



## milkyspit

marcdilnutt said:


> What do you think the possibility of nodding one is? You said you were waiting for one from someone else so you could investigate, i was wondering if you got anywhere with it? I presume that the two parts are threaded together but i cant seem to break the loctite on mine. I want to build a bombproof single cell light and this seems to be the perfect host but i cant get into it. If you have done it before then i will gladly send it to you in a couple of weeks, if the price is right, but i would like to try my hand at modding it myself. Also did you put loctite on the m180 kl2 bezel because i have an m3 bezel i would like to swap on to it. Thanks, marc.



I think it's very possible. Right now I'm turning MSax's M1 into what amounts to a single emitter, M100 light based on an underdriven LuxV WYOS emitter. My guess is he'll see 60-90 minutes runtime out of it before it dims noticeably. Installing a solid brass heatsink inside for a little added thermal management, heh heh. :naughty:

BTW, no Loktite at all on your bezel... but since it's plastic, please be careful! They're very easy to scrape when trying to get 'em off... don't slip! oo:


----------



## milkyspit

*RDH226, *your X700-M6 is done. This light does NOT qualify as Project-M compliant... it isn't efficient enough, has too short a runtime, draws too much current, generates too much heat, likely won't regulate as flat as a true Project-M light would. That said, it IS impressive! Beam color is a gorgeous white; sidespill is bright, even, and artifact-free. The hotspot in particular is stunning. 

I had to take a lux reading before boxing it up... are you sitting down? This 700 lumen overall output monster registered *16,120 lux at 1 meter*.

Woohoo!


----------



## nakahoshi

Pm sent, 
most likely Ill be giving you all my money again
-bobby


----------



## jtice

......16,120 lux at 1 meter...

I was sitting, till I fell out of my damn chair !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! WOW oo:

RDH226,
You BETTER have pics for us later !!!

~John


----------



## milkyspit

Bobby, your light is done and will be in the mail as soon as the post office opens! 

Jtice, snapped some outdoor photos of RDH's light in action last night. Once I sort through 'em to find the best (some were overly blurry... it was night after all!) I will indeed post!


----------



## milkyspit

jtice said:


> ......16,120 lux at 1 meter...
> 
> I was sitting, till I fell out of my damn chair !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! WOW oo:
> 
> RDH226,
> You BETTER have pics for us later !!!
> 
> ~John



Well, as promised here are some (really poorly photographed!) shots of RDH226's X700-M6 in action, plus compared with a few well-known friends... 

For the beam composite, all four contenders were photographed using identical exposure settings. The smokehouse visible in the foreground is about 10 yards away... the tree behind it is 30 yards away, maybe a bit more. The HDS U60 at max brightness was used as the control case in these comparative beamshots.

_X700-M6 against HDS U60, Gladius, and SureFire L5_






Some notes on the above... the gladius doesn't necessarily look brighter overall than the HDS, but it's evident in looking at the tree that the focus is tighter... the SureFire L5 clearly illuminates the smokehouse far more than the HDS and Gladius, as would be expected... and the X700, uh, let's leave that one to tell its own story. 

BTW, sorry about the blurriness in all these photos... I was holding the camera in one hand, flashlight in the other!

Also, none of these photos have been brightened, altered, or retouched in any way other than to resize them.

Now for some walking-around photos. The sidewalk below is just outside the back door, and the fence is perhaps 20 yards away. Note the intensity of sidespill... that entire quadrant of the yard is easily visible, and color rendition is generally good!

Oh, and all the light seen in these photos is being generated by the X700 itself, running on partially depleted primaries no less! No back porch light, no driveway floodlight, no streetlights...


_Sidewalk_





Next, standing at the edge of the road in front of the property, aiming the X700-M6's hotspot at the garage maybe 40 yards distant. If it almost looks like daylight, you're getting EXACTLY the feeling one gets from this light in real life!

_Road to garage, up the driveway_





Closeup against the garage door to show the perfectly round hotspot and smooth intensity dropoff moving outward.

_Beam closeup against garage door... there's a door lock hidden by the hotspot!_





Last but not least, shining the beam along a 1/4 mile straightaway of road out front: the yellow diamond-shaped sign is at least 100 yards away, and the roadway continues until rounding a corner about 1/4 mile in the distance. Although not clear in the photo, the beam illuminates maybe 2/3 that distance well enough to see someone walking along the side of the road. What IS evident in the photo is that there's no visibility problem whatsoever at least as far as that yellow sign! :naughty:

_Illuminating a 1/4 mile straightaway of road_





Enjoy, RDH!


----------



## jtice

Wow, quite stunning ! :rock:

Makes me want to round up all the TWOJs I have and just make a monster 

~John


----------



## marcdilnutt

WOW! That is impressive Scott! With your M100 what are the benefits of an underdriven Lux V over a Lux 3 running at spec?


----------



## milkyspit

marcdilnutt said:


> WOW! That is impressive Scott! With your M100 what are the benefits of an underdriven Lux V over a Lux 3 running at spec?



*Marc, *first of all, according to fellow CPFer DFiorentino's efficiency tests of various Luxeons of all sorts, it looks like the M100 will actually be generating something more along the lines of 120-150 lumens... the "M100" designation is a bit conservative... probably better (and still fairly conservative) to call it an *M128*! 

Second, a well-binned LuxV underdriven at 500mA is both more efficient and higher output than the best available LuxIII driven at spec. Only thing the LuxV won't be able to do as well is throw, and the M128 is designed as more of a pocket-sized, intermediate range little monster. The "Pocket Monster!" 

BTW, thanks!


----------



## marcdilnutt

WOW! That is impressive Scott! With your M100 what are the benefits of an underdriven Lux V over a Lux 3 running at spec?


----------



## D MacAlpine

milkyspit said:


> BTW, sorry about the blurriness in all these photos... I was holding the camera in one hand, flashlight in the other!


 
In which case you must have pretty steady hands, I'm impressed!

If this X700 "beast" can manage to do all that without toasting itself I now see how an X300 would be no problem.
Have any X300s been produced yet BTW, or are they all waiting on the new boards?


----------



## milkyspit

marcdilnutt said:


> WOW! That is impressive Scott! With your M100 what are the benefits of an underdriven Lux V over a Lux 3 running at spec?



*Marc, *repeat of reply a couple posts higher in the thread. Guessing the forum software hiccupped and caused a repeat of your post, given the time of day and all... maybe due to a reboot or restoration of "lost" transactions after some sort of daily system backup?
:thinking:

Anyway...

First of all, according to fellow CPFer DFiorentino's efficiency tests of various Luxeons of all sorts, it looks like the M100 will actually be generating something more along the lines of 120-150 lumens... the "M100" designation is a bit conservative... probably better (and still fairly conservative) to call it an *M128*! 

Second, a well-binned LuxV underdriven at 500mA is both more efficient and higher output than the best available LuxIII driven at spec. Only thing the LuxV won't be able to do as well is throw, and the M128 is designed as more of a pocket-sized, intermediate range little monster. The "Pocket Monster!" 

BTW, thanks! 



D MacAlpine said:


> In which case you must have pretty steady hands, I'm impressed!
> 
> If this X700 "beast" can manage to do all that without toasting itself I now see how an X300 would be no problem.
> Have any X300s been produced yet BTW, or are they all waiting on the new boards?



Guess it's the steady hands, I dunno. :shrug: The camera does have an image stabilizer. On the other hand, exposure times were pretty long. I just took a deep breath and tried to keep things still for a bit!

The X700 never got more than warm during all this, although it must be said that the light was on again, off again for most of the photo session... probably about 50-75% of the time it was on.

No X300s produced yet... then again, there's a nagging feeling that I'm forgetting about someone, hmm... there's no reason the X300 can't be produced RIGHT NOW, though it will be single brightness, not multi! I've got the hardware for multi-brightness but the software is still a work in progress.








*The "Keep Milky Employed As A Flashlight Craftsman!" Appeal
*
Folks, ever since I mentioned that I was working on multi-level boards the orders for Project-M lights and their eXtreme cousins have dried up! Okay, I was stupid for mentioning it... that proves I'm not marketing savvy! 

Thing is, there's no shame in a single brightness M180, for example. Speaking personally, I fully intend to keep using my single-brightness M180 even after multi-level versions are available; and I suspect it will remain my #1 workhorse light, the one I use more often than any other. Why? Because it's really useful! (Like Thomas the Tank Engine) (I'm a dad, too!)  I've built a lot of lights and it turns out 180 lumens in a well-focused beam seems to be the magical sweet spot where long runtime, low heat, ample photons and keeping things under control come together. I've no desire to muck with that in my own case!

What the heck did the above mean? :thinking:

*Long Runtime. *2x18650 can drive an M180 for 5+ hours, and a single 18650 for 2+ hours, with flatline regulation for the entire run.

*Low Heat. *The head never gets more than warm, honest! Ask anyone who's got one!

*Ample Photons. *My garage has some SERIOUSLY bright fluorescents over the workbench. My desk in the house, at the Milky Labs, has TWO 60W lamps AND a halogen desk light turned up to full power. (Gotta have good lighting to see those tiny solder traces when working at night!) Between house and garage is a long, dark walk. Coming out of the house I have poor night vision, likewise when coming out of the garage to return to the house... but the M180 never lets me down! Even with compromised night vision, my M180 pumps out enough light to compensate, and I never feel uncomfortable, nor do I get that "tunnel vision" feeling. It always seems to be enough!

*Under Control. *The light somehow never seems TOO bright in real world use... for closeup use, I rely on the sidespill... downrange, use the hotspot. Believe it or not, my night vision doesn't take much of a hit at all... certainly less than one would expect! That's NOT the case for some other monsters I've used in the past.

There are some other advantages to the single-brightness lights, too... the boards are a little more efficient, meaning additional runtime... all the fancy stuff to generate multi-brightness will take a toll on the runtime, it needs to get some juice to work its mojo from somewhere! Granted the hit will be slight, but enough to be noticeable in a runtime test...

The M180 single-brightness is a proven design with an established and growing track record... even when I test the lights on the workbench prior to sending them out, the consistency from unit to unit is remarkable...

Then there's that simplicity the single-brightness lights provide... turn it on, turn it off... no fancy keystrokes or whiz-bang magic to remember, or get confused, or inadvertently reprogram into the wrong mode... you grab your light and it just works. Period. 

As said before, I'm trying to scrape out a living doing this, and quite honestly this past month and my stupid preannouncement mistake has really hurt. I let slip because I'm inherently honest and wanted to share my own excitement with all of you... I still feel that way... but never intended to get shot in the foot (or the heart?) over it! If you want a Project-M light, please don't hold back.

Toward that end, I've got the following *available for sale right now...*

1. *My PERSONAL M180-KL2 with the ultra-rare COMBAT BEZEL... *3x Lux1W SXOH... it's got a gorgeous tint and beautiful aesthetics, what with the deep scallops in the HA3 natural bezel ring and all... why is it for sale? Because that darned hotwire nut *BILL WAITES *finally got me all whacked in the head to where I prefer the SWOH tint outdoors! Even though to my eye the SXOH looks whiter! DANGIT BILL!!  ($265 plus shipping.)






2. *M180-KL2 built with the hardware for multi-brightness *already installed. This will be a SINGLE BRIGHTNESS light for now. When multi-brightness is available all you'll need is reprogramming of your board. ($245 plus shipping.)

3. *M180 in Mag 2C with SOLID COPPER HEATSINK *and* the hardware for multi-brightness *already installed. This will be a SINGLE BRIGHTNESS light for now. When multi-brightness is available all you'll need is reprogramming of your board. ($245 plus shipping.)

4. *M360 in Mag 2C **with 17mm SMOOTH reflectors (slightly better throw) and SXOH emitters *and* the hardware for multi-brightness *already installed. This will be a SINGLE BRIGHTNESS light for now. When multi-brightness is available all you'll need is reprogramming of your board. ($255 plus shipping.)

_*Still building other stuff, too, made to order!*_

PM or email me (milkyspit(at)gmail(dot)com) if interested... first come, first served! All are superb lights. Help yourself, help Milky! 

In summary...

Will multi-brightness Project-M lights be available? *YES.*

Are they available right now, or in the next week or so? *NO.*

Does this make the single brightness lights obsolete? *NO!*

Will single brightness lights be upgradable later? *YES!* *In some cases the board won't even need to be changed, just reprogrammed! (See above.)*

Anyway, thanks for reading everyone. Nothing like baring one's soul on a fine Sunday morning!


----------



## Dizney

Milky,

I'm not sure if it went through, but I sent a PM yesterday in regards to the X700.

Thanks!


----------



## milkyspit

Dizney said:


> Milky,
> 
> I'm not sure if it went through, but I sent a PM yesterday in regards to the X700.
> 
> Thanks!



*Dizney, *PM replied! Thanks for reminding me.


----------



## Dizney

Milky,

Paypal sent for the M360 and (2) MC2's. Thanks for the quick response to my questions!!


----------



## milkyspit

Dizney said:


> Milky,
> 
> Paypal sent for the M360 and (2) MC2's. Thanks for the quick response to my questions!!



*Dizney, *PP received! Item #4 above (the M360 in purple Mag 2C) is yours, as are a pair of MC2 units. Many thanks!


----------



## Mike Painter

> Folks, ever since I mentioned that I was working on multi-level boards the orders for Project-M lights and their eXtreme cousins have dried up!
> Thing is, there's no shame in a single brightness M180, for example.



I was very interested but am still waiting for the price list thread, promised in the very first post.
I was very interested in a dimmable capability and was told at first thathis was not going to happen for a while, not being able to dim menas carrying more than one light in my case.
I was very interested in the 2D mag with 2 NiMH D cells. I made the assumption that since estimateed run times were and still are posted for both a 2D and 3D solution that the system would work with either 2 or 3 D cells. But I'm told this is not true.

I actually emailed somebody because they invited emails and found that my email would be forwarded to Milkyspit when he got back. 

So I don't know what is actually available and don't know the actual costs.

If you want to make sales you have to act like you are a business and do what you say you will do. This light and the BAM (going on 2 yers now and heat sinks have not been ordered) are just about off my radar now. I have a good light and can work with that until somebody actually starts selling a light with the new crees.


----------



## milkyspit

*Mike, *I'm sorry to read this sort of thing as I work very hard to address people's needs and build the best possible lights that I can... but I do appreciate honesty and am glad you posted. Let me digest what you've said to see if it can't help me do things better. Thank you for the criticism even though I don't like to read it!

In terms of your specific issues, it looks like a number of things happened to cause the mixup in your case... I won't bore you with the details as they're not meant to be excuses anyway... instead I will take responsibility for dropping the ball, innocent as the mistake may have been... and if I've lost your business as a result, guess that's the cost of my mistake.

If on the other hand we've still got some possibilities here, I'd like to discuss... look for a PM from me momentarily... I've located the archived PM that had been forwarded to me but I'd missed.

Again my apologies if I've let you down. 




Mike Painter said:


> I was very interested but am still waiting for the price list thread, promised in the very first post.
> I was very interested in a dimmable capability and was told at first thathis was not going to happen for a while, not being able to dim menas carrying more than one light in my case.
> I was very interested in the 2D mag with 2 NiMH D cells. I made the assumption that since estimateed run times were and still are posted for both a 2D and 3D solution that the system would work with either 2 or 3 D cells. But I'm told this is not true.
> 
> I actually emailed somebody because they invited emails and found that my email would be forwarded to Milkyspit when he got back.
> 
> So I don't know what is actually available and don't know the actual costs.
> 
> If you want to make sales you have to act like you are a business and do what you say you will do. This light and the BAM (going on 2 yers now and heat sinks have not been ordered) are just about off my radar now. I have a good light and can work with that until somebody actually starts selling a light with the new crees.


----------



## nakahoshi

I think scott does a great job! I havent recieved my M180 yet, but he always responds to PM's, sometimes he needs a little poke  But he always writes back in detail to the questions asked. 

As for not knowing prices, Just PM him and ask, Easy for me at least! 
:goodjob: 
-bobby


----------



## Nebula

Scott - keep some of those parts laying about! Just as soon as my 2C arrives from MM's camo GB I will send it up for the M-180 treatment. One level is fine with me for now, and I like the idea of having the hardware upgradable down the road. 

BTW - The L1 you did for me is getting a LOT of use. Terrific job! Thank you for your contributions to this very addictive hobby. With your talents the work will come. Take care. Kirk


----------



## MSaxatilus

> If you want to make sales you have to act like you are a business and do what you say you will do. This light and the BAM (going on 2 yers now and heat sinks have not been ordered) are just about off my radar now. I have a good light and can work with that until somebody actually starts selling a light with the new crees.


 
That's kindof interesting.... I've never had any trouble getting through to Milky via PMs, email or via telephone. He's simply one of the most accesable modders out there. That's why I keep coming back for more mods with him.

MSax


----------



## nobody

The M180-KL2 is an awesome light!


----------



## Knight Lights

I have to accept some of the criticism from Mike on this also. I forwarded his questions on for milkyspit, but I have been overwhelmed at work for several weeks and didn't follow up on what had happened.

One of the issues milky and I have to deal with is that we are on opposite coasts, so we don't always have as much communication as we would like, with my job right now being more than full time, my continuing build of the USL, and all the family responsibilities that I have as a father and soon to be Grandfather.

Sometimes we literally get 20-30 (or more) posts a day with questions, and often the ones that are about POTENTIAL builds get backburnered because of questions about already CONTRACTED builds. 

Scott can build, or he can answer posts, so even though he tries to get to them all, sometimes one or two get lost, especially if they are about items that have not been ordered, but might be. At least half of all questions we get are "What If?" questions that are about lights that are never ordered, so those kinds of questions tend to have less importance than questions about ordered lights.

We continually try to get back to all those, but sometimes a few fall through the cracks. I apologize for this.

Bill


----------



## milkyspit

This post is a bit out of place (technically this isn't a Project-M compliant light), but thought it might make for some interesting light reading! 

I recently built Leef an X680, a Mag 2D-based light featuring custom heatsinking and 4x LuxV WYOS emitters... trouble is, I took current draw measurements every step of the way and all was well... but when I closed the light for final assembly and pretty much the point of no return, suddenly current draw was higher than expected! For some reason this is a common occurrence in the more extreme lights built for Leef, but strangely, not for others. I call it getting Leefed, or the Leef voodoo effect! Hasn't happened with his M180 builds but HAS happened with pretty much anything he's had built in the eXtreme series.
:shrug:

The above notwithdtanding, the "X680 Voodoo" IS a good performer. Seems to be approaching 700 lumens out the front and holding it for an extended time, meaning the regulation circuitry is not being overtaxed and heat buildup is not an issue, either. Leef reports that "max observed temp was 102 deg. F." Here's his runtime chart...


----------



## Knight Lights

Added photo of Milkyspit's personal M180-KL2 crenelated to the photos post near top of thread.


----------



## milkyspit

With some tremendous collaboration from Leef (well, my idea but he did all the work) we now have C2M adapters... and they're GORGEOUS!

Leef's announcement is *over here*.

Lighthound sells them *over here*.

* I have a limited number that I will sell* to any owner of an M180-KL2... and to folks who order those heads from this point forward, too! PM me with interest. I've got mostly hard anodized natural, with a VERY select few hard anodized black. The anodize on both is some of the best I've ever seen!


A Project-M family photo of sorts... notice that the light in the foreground is mounted on a C2 body by way of a LeefDapter. 






BTW, why did I leave the M180-M3 owners out of the offer above? My own testing has shown that some of the M180-M3 spring connections won't fit into the adapter properly... at least, not without a bit of trimming. If you want to give it a try anyway, by all means do so... but I can't guarantee your results. Just a heads-up.

Beautiful IMHO! Many thanks, Leef! :bow:


----------



## milkyspit

M420-KT4 (a.k.a. M420-M6) runtime graphs from Leef... these are running on 6x123 primary cells, and given the relatively higher current draw as opposed to the M180 builds, primaries in this case do show some shortening of the theoretical runtime... still, to put things in perspective, 134 minutes to half brightness with nearly that entire time at FULL OUTPUT with no dimming whatsoever, at 420 lumens, is IMHO pretty decent when one considers that the SF 500 lumen HOLA is rated for only 20 minutes!

_Linear: What the Meter Sees...
_





_Logarithmic: What the Human Eye Sees...
_





BTW, I would expect some of the rechargeable options (3x2x17500, 2x18650, etc.) to hold up even better due to less voltage sag under the M420's current draw.


----------



## jtice

woo hoo! good stuff here ! :thumbsup:
Placing an order at LightHound now for the C2M, and I dont even have my mod yet . hehe 

~John


----------



## Dizney

milkyspit said:


> *Dizney, *PP received! Item #4 above (the M360 in purple Mag 2C) is yours, as are a pair of MC2 units. Many thanks!




Milky,

The lights arrived!!! The M360 is awesome....the purple body really stands out too!!!

Thanks again!!


----------



## milkyspit

*The Smallest M180-KL2 Yet!* :naughty:

On a whim I tried this combo the other day, and it actually works pretty well...

_M180-KL2 on M2C Adapter on E2C Adapter on E1E Body with McClicky Tail
(and some pretty poor photography... sorry!)_





This particular head has the new multi-ready hardware installed and the software is configured for single Li-ion cell usage... when the incoming voltage falls below 3.2V, the light will blink once every 5 seconds to remind the user to swap cells... when the blinking begins my guess would be there's roughly 10 minutes runtime remaining before the protected cell shuts itself down due to overdischarge.

On a protected RCR123 Li-ion cell, looks like this configuration would run for roughly 45-60 minutes and remain in regulation virtually the entire time... and the thing tailstands, too! 

I like it.


----------



## jtice

heh cool Scott 
Lots of endless combos now avalible with all these adapters.
I got my C2M the other day, and it looks fantastic !
Great job to both your and Leff!!!

How are the multi stage boards coming? I am dieing to get mine ! 

~John


----------



## Jack4369

Hi Scott

That's just like my daily use light , It works great .for EDC , I use the 1XR123 tube , for long time use(camping) , I use the 1X18650 tube , I like it so much .

Just think if it can be multi brightness with Lux III , I think it will be more great and more usefull . IMHO

anyway , it's a great light and I am glad to have one .

Thanks

Jack


----------



## milkyspit

jtice said:


> heh cool Scott
> Lots of endless combos now avalible with all these adapters.
> I got my C2M the other day, and it looks fantastic !
> Great job to both your and Leff!!!
> 
> How are the multi stage boards coming? I am dieing to get mine !
> 
> ~John



Thanks John! 

The firmware's gonna take a while to complete... ran into a couple issues in development... nothing insurmountable, but it will take some time. If you want me to build up your light using the multi-ready hardware so you can get the light right now in single-brightness form and reprogram it later for the full multi-brightness capability, that's no problem. Just say the word!


----------



## milkyspit

Jack4369 said:


> Hi Scott
> 
> That's just like my daily use light , It works great .for EDC , I use the 1XR123 tube , for long time use(camping) , I use the 1X18650 tube , I like it so much .
> 
> Just think if it can be multi brightness with Lux III , I think it will be more great and more usefull . IMHO
> 
> anyway , it's a great light and I am glad to have one .
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Jack



Thanks Jack! I'm very happy to hear that it's working well for you!


----------



## jtice

nah, no since in reshipping it back to you and all that.
Plus it would be easier for you to do it all at once.

Im just an impatient ******* 
I blame it all on the teaser pics you keep posting! 
Keep posting! lol

~John


----------



## D MacAlpine

Just a suggestion here (and I acknowledge that it isn't actually any of my business);

As Scott mentioned earlier his order book has been a bit empty of late because a lot of potential customers are waiting on the multi-level software.
Since we know that he already has the hardware and the software will be there in the near future - why not set up some sort of a pre-order?
If you can pay in advance for the light Scott could build it up now and you would then have it really fast when he has the software to program it.

That way MilkyLabs stays healthy and we all get to keep enjoying his products.

This is, of course, dependant on whether Scott would want to do things this way. If you don't, please say and I'll remove this post.

Just my 2UKp.


----------



## milkyspit

*Don, *guess I've got no problem with that. Normally I don't like to take folks' money until I can build and ship... there have been exceptions of course... I guess so long as the buyers understand there could be a significant delay in receiving their lights, then I'm okay with the concept. Just to set expectations, I'm going to say this: your lights may not ship until Christmas. Please prepare yourselves for that possibility! The reality is that I doubt it will take even remotely that long, but I'd rather that people work with a conservative estimate and end up pleasantly surprised, than the other way around!

So yes, I'll take prepayments for multi-brightness Project-M builds... and will build your lights but wait to reprogram them before shipping. *If it works for you guys, it works for me!
*:thumbsup:

Thanks for the input, Don... much appreciated! :bow:


----------



## milkyspit

*The Big Mack!*

Thought you guys might want a treat. Just completed a one-of-a-kind M180-KL2 build for EricMack. Here's the eye candy! 






(MSax, did I do okay tying that knot?)


----------



## Kiessling

How's that low-battery indicator working? I love indicators ... 
bernie


----------



## EricMack

Milky - Looks great! :thumbsup: Nice name... 


Bernie - tape stays on just for you... :buddies:


----------



## nakahoshi

Milky, PM SENT!

:candle: :huh:


Any chance you might write me back?
 :candle:


----------



## milkyspit

Kiessling said:


> How's that low-battery indicator working? I love indicators ...
> bernie



*Bernie, *the low battery indicator on the BigMack is tuned for 2x18650 cells. When the incoming voltage of the two cells drops to the point where protected cell shutdown would be occurring in next 15 minutes or so, the light will blink briefly once every 5 seconds to warn the user that the end is near.


----------



## nakahoshi

Did you get my Pm? :candle:


----------



## milkyspit

nakahoshi said:


> Did you get my Pm? :candle:



Oh, yes! Was just thinking about what to write back! 

Then the power went out in our entire neighborhood for a few hours. True story! oo:


----------



## nakahoshi

Still waiting :naughty: 

Question, What is the max voltage my m180 can handle? Whats the least amount? Would 2 C NIMH cells hold regulation?
-bobby


----------



## D MacAlpine

milkyspit said:


> *Bernie, *the low battery indicator on the BigMack is tuned for 2x18650 cells. When the incoming voltage of the two cells drops to the point where protected cell shutdown would be occurring in next 15 minutes or so, the light will blink briefly once every 5 seconds to warn the user that the end is near.


 
This is your new "multi-level ready" board I take it?

:rock: 

When you have the software sorted out, will it play MP3s as well?????????


----------



## milkyspit

D MacAlpine said:


> This is your new "multi-level ready" board I take it?
> 
> :rock:


 
Yes.



D MacAlpine said:


> When you have the software sorted out, will it play MP3s as well?????????




Well, uh... not this one. I think you're confusing it with the M180-iPod! :laughing:


----------



## milkyspit

Just posted a photo of a light I'm building for AreWeThereYetDad over in my *notebook and eye candy* thread... here it is, or take a walk over there if you want to chow down on a little more eye candy, heh heh.


----------



## nakahoshi

Scott, you still havent replied! Im trying to give you some money!  
-bobby


----------



## jtice

PM me, Ill take your money ! 

eh give him time, Scott can be a bit slow on replies, but he always takes care of you.

~John


----------



## nakahoshi

Patience , gah, I want Lumens...
Milky Style!
-bobby


----------



## nakahoshi

My milk is getting spoiled...
anyone out there?
:huh2: :candle: 



Still waiting for that good Ol reply :huh: 
And an answer to that question above  


> Question, What is the max voltage my m180 can handle? Whats the least amount? Would 2 C NIMH cells hold regulation?



Ill check in the morning 

 


-Roberto


----------



## milkyspit

nakahoshi said:


> My milk is getting spoiled...
> anyone out there?
> :huh2: :candle:
> 
> 
> 
> Still waiting for that good Ol reply :huh:
> And an answer to that question above
> 
> 
> Ill check in the morning
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -Roberto




You've been messaged, Roberto! Tag, you're it!


----------



## nakahoshi

Sorry for being a nag! Oh yeah, you have a life, oops. I figured you just played with your lights all day. Pm response on the way
-bobby


----------



## Rommul

milkyspit said:


> You've been messaged, Roberto! Tag, you're it!



Any chance I could get mine answered?


----------



## Knight Lights

Rommul,

Sometimes milky gets dozens of PM/emails a day and gets a little behind. 

Anything that I can help with?

Knightlights


----------



## milkyspit

Knight Lights said:


> Rommul,
> 
> Sometimes milky gets dozens of PM/emails a day and gets a little behind.
> 
> Anything that I can help with?
> 
> Knightlights



Rommul, I'm working on it. I spend hours a day just handling emails and PMs... then I've gotta build stuff, too! That's not an excuse, just a little peek into my world. I do eventually get back to everyone, but sometimes it takes a bit.

If Bill (Knightlights) can help out in the meantime, by all means give it a try! He's probably better than I am at explaining stuff anyway. (Thanks Bill!)
:bow:


----------



## nakahoshi

milkyspit said:


> I do eventually get back to everyone, but sometimes it takes a bit.


 :goodjob: He does! 
I wrote you back a PM Mr.Spit, And i wont bother you until you write back. Take care  
-bobby


----------



## Rommul

Knight Lights said:


> Rommul,
> 
> Sometimes milky gets dozens of PM/emails a day and gets a little behind.
> 
> Anything that I can help with?
> 
> Knightlights





milkyspit said:


> Rommul, I'm working on it. I spend hours a day just handling emails and PMs... then I've gotta build stuff, too! That's not an excuse, just a little peek into my world. I do eventually get back to everyone, but sometimes it takes a bit.
> 
> If Bill (Knightlights) can help out in the meantime, by all means give it a try! He's probably better than I am at explaining stuff anyway. (Thanks Bill!)
> :bow:



Yeah I know. Thats why I waited 4 days after sending the PM to bug him about it. 

At any rate he responded and I now have the info I need.

Thanks guys.


----------



## milkyspit

Latest build...


----------



## milkyspit

MSaxatilus has posted a Milky L1 (three different beam colors: white, amber, cyan!) and Project-M M90-M1 Illuminator combined mini-review *over here*.


----------



## milkyspit

*CREEmated! M231 in Mag 1D Housing.
*












Had a couple Mag 1D hosts sitting around and decided to have some fun... so after some creative Dremeling of three leftover Nuwai Q3 orange peel reflectors, voila! The first Project-M CREEmated light, the *M231-1D CrMa*, was born! :naughty:

Per spec, this light should deliver an average of 231 lumens continuous on 4AA Sanyo 2700mAh NiMH cells for 3-3.5 hours. Emitters used are Cree bin P3, tint WC (roughly equivalent to Luxeon tint XO). Beam profile below. :naughty:






Did the usual comparison photo of the light across the front porch, distance maybe 20 feet. Left is the porch in ambient noontime lighting... right shows the addition of some M231 CrMa goodness. 






Why do I keep taking comparison photos in the DAYTIME? 

Anyway, I like this light and hopefully it's the first of a number of Project-M Cree builds. IMHO the Cree emitters aren't the answer to every build... the smaller lights still benefit from the extremely well-binned Luxeon offerings, which are somewhat more space-efficient and work better with the smaller-sized reflectors... but there's definitely a place for the Cree as well in Project-M.


----------



## Alin10123

milkyspit said:


> *CREEmated! M231 in Mag 1D Housing.
> *
> 
> Had a couple Mag 1D hosts sitting around and decided to have some fun... so after some creative Dremeling of three leftover Nuwai Q3 orange peel reflectors, voila! The first Project-M CREEmated light, the *M231-1D CrMa*, was born! :naughty:
> 
> Per spec, this light should deliver an average of 231 lumens continuous on 4AA Sanyo 2700mAh NiMH cells for 3-3.5 hours. Emitters used are Cree bin P3, tint WC (roughly equivalent to Luxeon tint XO). Beam profile below. :naughty:
> 
> Did the usual comparison photo of the light across the front porch, distance maybe 20 feet. Left is the porch in ambient noontime lighting... right shows the addition of some M231 CrMa goodness.
> 
> Why do I keep taking comparison photos in the DAYTIME?
> 
> Anyway, I like this light and hopefully it's the first of a number of Project-M Cree builds. IMHO the Cree emitters aren't the answer to every build... the smaller lights still benefit from the extremely well-binned Luxeon offerings, which are somewhat more space-efficient and work better with the smaller-sized reflectors... but there's definitely a place for the Cree as well in Project-M.



Wow! This light is amazing. I might get this one after the 27LT. 

Speaking of which. Milkyspit,
Get my PM replies regarding the 27LT? I sent two of them.

Thanks


----------



## milkyspit

Alin10123 said:


> Wow! This light is amazing. I might get this one after the 27LT.
> 
> Speaking of which. Milkyspit,
> Get my PM replies regarding the 27LT? I sent two of them.
> 
> Thanks



Alin, got the PMs and will be replying this afternoon barring some family crisis. Meanwhile... that M231 is available! I've decided I'll part with it... heck, can always build another for myself. 

First come first served on that!


----------



## neue

Milkyspit-
I am interested in purchasing your M231. Please send me a PM with details about price. Also, can this run on li-ion batteries, in addition to the nimh (in case I want to fiddle with it later)? I assume that run time is similar to the M180.
Thanks.


----------



## milkyspit

neue said:


> Milkyspit-
> I am interested in purchasing your M231. Please send me a PM with details about price. Also, can this run on li-ion batteries, in addition to the nimh (in case I want to fiddle with it later)? I assume that run time is similar to the M180.
> Thanks.



Neue, sending PM as soon as this post is completed. Yes, Li-ion should be fine so long as total input voltage is no higher than 12V. Runtime should be virtually identical to the M180.


----------



## PLT

PM sent


----------



## milkyspit

PLT said:


> PM sent



PM replied!


----------



## PLT

PM sent again.


----------



## milkyspit

PLT said:


> PM sent again.



PM replied again.


----------



## PLT

Paypal sent


----------



## milkyspit

PLT said:


> Paypal sent



Got it! Thanks PLT. :santa:


----------



## milkyspit

Oops! Just posted over on the Milky Eye Candy thread... might be of some use referencing it here, eh? 



milkyspit said:


> Thanks D.!
> 
> Regarding the M180 and its brethren... um, uh... we already have an M252 using Cree P4-WH emitters. I can build those in an M3 head TODAY. In fact, built one before Christmas for Leef... AFAIK he ended up giving it to his father in law or something like that.
> 
> Here's the breakdown with the Project-M 3-up arrangement used in both M3 and KL2 SureFire heads...
> 
> LuxI SxxH... M180
> Cree P3-WC... M231
> Cree P4-WH... M252
> 
> I don't anticipate any additional lumens from the Seoul parts right now, but DO expect a different beam pattern, so we've got more capability for tailoring all aspects of these heads to each buyer's liking... and that is after all what one should expect of a custom-ordered, handbuilt light... a light built for THEM (read: their personal needs and tastes).
> 
> _Hot off the (Soldering) Iron, The Milky SEOULmate Test Rig!_
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Incidentally, what of the eXtreme cousins to the Project-M lights? Well, for the M180-like builds here are some that I've either already built or am in the process of crafting right now...
> 
> X300-M3
> X308 "Nebulizer"
> X336-Mag2C
> X380-M3
> 
> :santa:



Project-M is alive and well... and I've sourced a NEW supply of KL2 heads...

...and the custom Project-M version of the LeefBodies are nearly ready...

...and I'm stocked with the best-available LuxI (not dead yet folks!), Cree (P3-WC and P4-WH), SSC P4 emitters...

...and I'm beginning to experiment with corrosion-resistant copper heatsinking...

...and using thin-sheet silicone for some of the insulating and shock absorption aspects of some builds...

...and building some Project-M variants into the uber-strong SureFire M1 flashlights...

...and lots MORE that I can't reveal at present, for fear of being cut off!...

...so anyone who wanted to test the waters but hasn't, and those who already took the plunge but it's been a while...

...time to dip in your toe, the water's great! 

Wishing everyone a peaceful and joyous 2007 and a GREAT holiday weekend.


----------



## marcdilnutt

Any possibility of a multi level Cree M1 mod? I have given up trying to open mine up so it is just collecting dust at the moment.
marc


----------



## milkyspit

marcdilnutt said:


> Any possibility of a multi level Cree M1 mod? I have given up trying to open mine up so it is just collecting dust at the moment.
> marc




Absolutely! If you're comfortable with using exclusively a Li-ion rechargeable, then the best builds might use either a FLuPIC board or the MC2-HP board... the latter is a high-powered version of the MC2 boards I had built for the Milky Candle v2 run. Both boards would support multi-brightness... FLuPIC definitely fits in the M1, MC2-HP may or may not... never tried it!

PM me if you want to do something along these lines. Happy to help!

Speaking of happy... Happy Holidays, too! :santa:


----------



## milkyspit

*[size=+1]Project-M Bodies Nearly Ready![/size]*

Been working with Leef on designing some special Project-M bodies. (Thanks Leef!) These are similar to the new LeefBodies that just started selling at Lighthound, but the Project-M version is kicked up a notch. These are a very limited run and available to you in conjunction with the Project-M builds. Here's a sneak peak at the unplated bodies... the production version will be hard anodized in a natural finish. :naughty:






If you're looking for a LeefBody by itself (not with a build) I would suggest Lighthound, who's got a far greater supply, though without the distinctive Project-M touches. Or follow the unofficial CPF motto... buy 'em both!


----------



## Alin10123

milkyspit said:


> *[size=+1]Project-M Bodies Nearly Ready![/size]*
> 
> Been working with Leef on designing some special Project-M bodies. (Thanks Leef!) These are similar to the new LeefBodies that just started selling at Lighthound, but the Project-M version is kicked up a notch. These are a very limited run and available to you in conjunction with the Project-M builds. Here's a sneak peak at the unplated bodies... the production version will be hard anodized in a natural finish. :naughty:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If you're looking for a LeefBody by itself (not with a build) I would suggest Lighthound, who's got a far greater supply, though without the distinctive Project-M touches. Or follow the unofficial CPF motto... buy 'em both!



Wow! These are beautiful. Do you think that maybe we could possibly get some in the bare aluminum finish if we wanted to? That might look cool too.


----------



## Nebula

Milky and Leef - You guys have put together a VERY nice looking body! Scott - more information?????? Kirk


----------



## milkyspit

*Wow! These are beautiful. Do you think that maybe we could possibly get some in the bare aluminum finish if we wanted to? That might look cool too.*

Alin, YES, I think some bare aluminum is still available... but folks who want that need to let me know soon so I can try to grab the appropriate number prior to plating!

*Milky and Leef - You guys have put together a VERY nice looking body! Scott - more information?????? Kirk*

Kirk, we'll need to get you outfitted with some sort of Project-M head if we haven't already done so... and please excuse if I'm overlooking something and we already have!  Give me a call if possible and we can get into details. Thx!


----------



## Nebula

Scott - I will call tonight. Thanks. Kirk


----------



## ianb

Milkyspit,

 for my first custom mod!

1 x M252
1 x Leef Project M 1 x 18650 body
1 x SF clicky

(+ I later PP'd for a 2 x 18650 Project M body too )

and of course shipping, I look forward to the results    

thanks, Ian


----------



## ianb

heres my body 







do you think I got the wrong tailcap :thinking: what a dumbass I am  , 

...now I have to just wait for my M-head  (and a Z58)

 

Ian


----------



## milkyspit

Hey guys, just a quick note that I'm at SHOT show at the moment. Anyone here try locating me at the Tekna booth (#7375)... they've got a couple Milky mods there as well. I'll try to hop on CPF later this evening if possible, to update some threads. Cheers!


----------



## depusm12

Scott

Tried to PM you but your mailbox is full.


----------



## SpeedPRO

Scott,



for M252 Head!


Thanks!


----------



## milkyspit

*[size=+1]Another satisfied Project-M customer! [/size]*


----------



## ianb

:huh: :thumbsup: :kewlpics: 

Ian


----------



## MorpheusT1

Get back to work!













Benny


----------



## milkyspit

The new Project-M bodies have arrived! Turned out pretty nice if I dare say so.

Here's the MB1 (the 2x123/1x18650 version) with M180-KL2 head and SW01 "Millstone" tailcap mounted on it... MB2 (4x123/2x18650) is also available in VERY limited numbers...






There aren't all that many bodies available so if you want one, please speak up! Some of you precommitted to them, and will have priority... but only if you follow through with the order...
:thinking:

I had this special limited run made for folks ordering Project-M heads. All are welcome! If you want just an 18650-compatible body, though, you'll find plenty available through Lighthound... they won't have the limited edition finned body, but good stuff nonetheless. 

PM if interested! :naughty:


----------



## bwaites

Scott,

These look GREAT in HA!!

Beautiful light!

Bill


----------



## MorpheusT1

That looks awsome Scott 


Do you have any left of the 2004 Version Surefire L1 btw?
They are getting hard to find these days.


Im looking for a Mint Stock light.



Benny


----------



## EricMack

Lookin' sweet, Milky! A beautiful job Leef did with these! :rock: 

Let me just say that my Go-To light is one called Little Mack, which you can see Pilar grasping in my Avatar... :naughty: LM is the smaller Leef body with a Millstone (Fatty) SW01 on the end, and with either the Fatty or the less aggressive Baker Cap switch, the light fits perfectly when grasped in the hand. Its fairly Tactical, and VERY bright with the X300 KL2...  

Awesome job, Leef and Scott, these are just great, trust me on this!


----------



## milkyspit

MorpheusT1 said:


> That looks awsome Scott
> 
> 
> Do you have any left of the 2004 Version Surefire L1 btw?
> They are getting hard to find these days.
> 
> 
> Im looking for a Mint Stock light.
> 
> 
> 
> Benny




Benny, you're right, they are getting hard to find. You mean the one with the smaller head and flat (not domed) lens, right? I can get you a few I think, in mint condition, in factory box if you PM me about it or email here...






Thanks!


----------



## MorpheusT1

E-mail sent 



Benny


----------



## milkyspit

MorpheusT1 said:


> E-mail sent
> 
> Benny



Email replied, Benny!


----------



## Chronos

Email sent Milky!


----------



## ianb

Milky, 
due to your PM overdose, I thought I'd try posting here instead, I'd like to add another tailcap to my order please, I haven't PP'd, yet, when I hear its okay I will,

thanks, Ian 



ianb said:


> Milkyspit,
> 
> for my first custom mod!
> 
> 1 x M252
> 1 x Leef Project M 1 x 18650 body
> 1 x SF clicky
> 
> (+ I later PP'd for a 2 x 18650 Project M body too )
> 
> and of course shipping, I look forward to the results
> 
> thanks, Ian


----------



## milkyspit

Chronos said:


> Email sent Milky!



Got it! Will reply soon. Thanks.



ianb said:


> Milky,
> due to your PM overdose, I thought I'd try posting here instead, I'd like to add another tailcap to my order please, I haven't PP'd, yet, when I hear its okay I will,
> 
> thanks, Ian



Ian, I've gotta sort out your order at this point... it's changed a couple times (for the better!)  and being at SHOT show I didn't log it in the manner I usually do... but will figure it out! :laughing:

For me the fatal flaw was assuming my hotel room would have a wired Ethernet connection, or for that matter any connection at all...


----------



## ianb

milkyspit said:



> Ian, I've gotta sort out your order at this point... it's changed a couple times...



yep, sorry about that 

PM/e-mail me/post here when its all sorted and I will PP you for the extra tailcap,

thanks, Ian


----------



## MorpheusT1

milkyspit said:


> Email replied, Benny!


 
Let the E-mail Ping pong begin.





Any progress on my Tri DX1 Setup so far?



Feel free to E-mail me anytime 




Regards,
Benny


----------



## milkyspit

Finally built my own M6 Project-M light! 

I'd built a few, but those were all for paying customers... meanwhile I've had an M6 sitting here gathering dust all this while, literally MONTHS... and finally made it come to life! I love this light, absolutely love it.







My personal light is running 7x Cree P3-WC, chosen for their gorgeous pure white tint, and calibrated to an output of roughly 539 lumens. Built a custom 4x14670 battery pack, too, which ought to keep the light in regulation for 1h40m or so... all within the confines of a stock M6 body. This is the whitest light I have ever seen... it actually has the visual effect of insta-bleaching whatever fabrics one shines it on! :naughty:

Highly recommended, heh heh. Yup, I am absolutely giddy!


----------



## WAVE_PARTICLE

SWEEEEEEEEEEEET! :rock:


----------



## depusm12

I'm patiently waiting for my X393-KL2 3x Seoul-P4 6500K-U emitters @500mA , with a Project M 2x18650 body and a SF tailcap, I also had Scott, Cree my Nuwai 301-X3 (Big Q3). The X393 will be carried on duty and the Nuwai 301-X3 will be my new EDC.


----------



## SpeedPRO

For those of you who wanted to see the M243 Scott build for me I posted up some pictures just because I'm reallly excited about it!

M243 (Beamshots Added)

Cheers!


----------



## milkyspit

depusm12 said:


> I'm patiently waiting for my X393-KL2 3x Seoul-P4 6500K-U emitters @500mA , with a Project M 2x18650 body and a SF tailcap, I also had Scott, Cree my Nuwai 301-X3 (Big Q3). The X393 will be carried on duty and the Nuwai 301-X3 will be my new EDC.




Photos from DEPUSM12, gratuitous fluff from me... oo:

(BTW, technically speaking, it's designated as an X376 rather than X393. I lowered the rating after reviewing the latest relative brightness info from JTR1962 and Newbie.)

_Profile_





_Posterized Beamshot_


----------



## D MacAlpine

Scott,

Now that you've worked with the Luxeon, Cree and Seoul emitters and the various reflectors that will fit into a "small" (KL2 size) bezel, could you give us an idea of how the beam patterns compare?

If you don't have suitable beamshots perhaps a description along the lines of "spill X feet wide at Y feet from light, hotspot Z feet wide. Spill brighter/dimmer than XXX, hotspot brighter/dimmer..." etc.

I think this would be useful for we potential customers, some of us are getting confused by the growing choices!


----------



## bwaites

This is a great idea.

Running the emitters at whatever spec is required to give, say, 60 lumens, would give everyone an idea of what to expect!

Bill


----------



## milkyspit

That side-by-side comparison sounds like a great idea. It will take me some time to put it together though as currently I'm swamped with building (which is a good problem BTW... keep 'em coming!)  ... and when I'm not building, I'm replying to emails and PMs!


----------



## milkyspit

SpeedPRO has posted some beamshots of his M243-KL2 vs. A19XRE and PD-S *over here*.


----------



## JanCPF

Milky,

I've sent you a PM regarding a build I would like you to do. I know it was just yesterday, but no harm putting a little pressure on you is there? :nana: 

Jan


----------



## MorpheusT1

Milky,


You got mail 



Regards,
Benny


----------



## milkyspit

MorpheusT1 said:


> Milky,
> 
> 
> You got mail
> 
> 
> 
> Regards,
> Benny




Benny, so do you... TWO in fact!


----------



## MorpheusT1

Wohoo!


Man i really need to get Skype...



Benny


----------



## JanCPF

Edited for silliness as I should have read the whole thread.

Found the "secret" e-mail address in post 234.

Jan


----------



## blahblahblah

Milky,

Will the Surefire KT4 M420/M5xx head work on a single 18650 cell? 

Thanks,
Marco


----------



## milkyspit

blahblahblah said:


> Milky,
> 
> Will the Surefire KT4 M420/M5xx head work on a single 18650 cell?
> 
> Thanks,
> Marco




Marco, that depends. There are two ways I can build those heads... one way should work nicely on a single 18650 cell but will get cooked if it runs on more than 2x18650... the other way will run with 2x18650 through 4x18650 but probably not on 1x18650 save for a very short burst.
:shrug:


----------



## JanCPF

Deleted.


----------



## JasonC

Hi,

Just a thanks to Milkyspit for being very helpful :goodjob:
I look forward to receiving my M273!

Jason


----------



## Scattergun

Oops.. just realized I asked a stupid question!!


----------



## milkyspit

Scattergun said:


> Oops.. just realized I asked a stupid question!!




:thinking: :shrug:


----------



## Scattergun

I asked something wich I later read about in one of the many threads about your work...guess my search-fu is weak!! 
I have sent you a PM regarding the question.


----------



## milkyspit

Scattergun said:


> I asked something wich I later read about in one of the many threads about your work...guess my search-fu is weak!!
> I have sent you a PM regarding the question.




Scatter, PM replied.


----------



## Alin10123

Milky,
Were you going to update the charts at the beginning of this thread to reflect the new cree/seoul options?


----------



## milkyspit

Alin10123 said:


> Milky,
> Were you going to update the charts at the beginning of this thread to reflect the new cree/seoul options?



DOH! 

You're right. Let me get some sleep and I'll begin work on an updated chart in the morning.

In the meantime, the runtimes for these should be essentially identical...

M180 (Luxeon) = M231 (Cree P3) = M252 (Cree P4) = M273 (Seoul P4)

M240 (Luxeon) = M308 (Cree P3) = M336 (Cree P4) = M364 (Seoul P4)

M360 (Luxeon) = M462 (Cree P3) = M504 (Cree P4) = M546 (Seoul P4)

M420 (Luxeon) = M539 (Cree P3) = M588 (Cree P4) = M637 (Seoul P4)

Some other interesting lights I've built recently or am presently building...

M310.3-KL2 (Seoul P4 with microcontroller and 3 brightness levels)
M318-KL2 (Cree P3)
M375-KL2 (Seoul P4)
X464-KL2 (Seoul P4)
X600-KL2 (Seoul P4)
X1400-Mag2C (Seoul P4)

:wave:


----------



## Alin10123

Wait... you mean to tell me that the seoul is even more efficient than the cree? I always assumed that the cree had a larger form factor and the seoul had a similar factor to the 3 watt LED and that the two shared similar technologies. So i figured since the cree was a physically larger dye that the cree was brighter or at least the same as the seoul.


----------



## iocheretyanny

Hi,

Can you tells us a bit more about the M310.3-KL2 (Seoul P4 with microcontroller and 3 brightness levels)

What are the levels? cost? etc...

Can something like that be done in a mag 2D?

Also X1400 Mag 2C - wow - what is that? any pictures?


----------



## milkyspit

Alin10123 said:


> Wait... you mean to tell me that the seoul is even more efficient than the cree? I always assumed that the cree had a larger form factor and the seoul had a similar factor to the 3 watt LED and that the two shared similar technologies. So i figured since the cree was a physically larger dye that the cree was brighter or at least the same as the seoul.



Alin, the Seoul emitters actually use Cree dice inside, so both ought to be identical in size. The packaging doesn't matter as much as the die itself. (It does matter, but the die is the light-generating element so that's the most important part of all in the emitter.) As for efficiency, not sure if the Seoul is all that much more EFFICIENT (lumens per watt) but they do generate more lumens of output at the same input current. Remember, if the Vf of the Seoul emitters is slightly higher it's possible they could be slightly less efficient and still produce more light in terms of absolute lumens at any given current flow. Based on what I've seen so far, I'd say both are pretty close to one another in terms of efficiency.

If memory serves, the Seoul is also a little better in terms of thermal management, which allows it to pull away from the Cree in terms of luminous output at higher currents, where more heat is being generated.


----------



## milkyspit

iocheretyanny said:


> Can you tells us a bit more about the M310.3-KL2 (Seoul P4 with microcontroller and 3 brightness levels)
> 
> What are the levels? cost? etc...



Well, very briefly, the highest output on the M310.3 delivers roughly 310 lumens continuous for about 1h50m... medium delivers roughly 77 lumens continuous for about 7h... and low delivers roughly 17 lumens continuous for 31h, all using a single 18650 rechargeable. In a pinch, 2x123 also ought to work, though 1x18650 would be the most efficient and kindest to the circuit. 

More importantly, since these are microcontroller-based boards and I can rewrite the source code, pretty much anything's possible in terms of functionality... brighter or lower levels... more or less levels... strobe... beacon... much more! Just a matter of getting enough demand for a particular featureset to cover the time to develop the code. :naughty:

VERY roughly, pricing for these heads would be in the $200-300 range depending on specific choice of emitters, reflectors, featureset, etc.

The boards I'm using at present should be considered a beta test version... they do work and I've built using a few already, but I'm still ironing out some kinks.



iocheretyanny said:


> Can something like that be done in a mag 2D?



Sure! No problem there. The Mag 2C and 2D were the original formats for Project-M and I can build pretty much any light in the family in these hosts... and since Maglites in general are less expensive than SureFire parts, the bottom line cost for the entire flashlight would end up correspondingly less.



iocheretyanny said:


> Also X1400 Mag 2C - wow - what is that? any pictures?



No photos available as of yet, but I can tell you this light will use 7 emitters at the head end and a special power source capable of roughly 30 minutes in full regulation (if memory serves) at the full 1400 lumens... plus the power source will be rechargeable in about 30 minutes. :naughty:


----------



## Flashdark

*Go Milky!, Go Milky! Go Milky!*

Still interested in a couple of 4-stage, X-600/KL-2s, with steps at about 1-2, 15, 100, and 600 lumens. If you can put each emitter on a seperate regulator, so that if one emitter or regulator goes down, the others work; and pre-select the power-level before you turn it on, we are approaching the Shangri-la of gun/utility lights. It sounds like you are *still* a generation ahead of Surefire. *OUTSTANDING!*

Flashdark sends,
Flashdark spends.


----------



## Jaybee64

Milky,

You got mail about an M6 build.

Jem


----------



## milkyspit

Jaybee, saw your email, will reply later this evening... gotta get some builds done first that folks will be expecting soon. 

*[size=+1]Runtime Chart Updated![/size]*

Thanks in part to Alin10123, I've just released a major revision of the Project-M runtime chart. The chart now incorporates a listing of Lux1, Cree P3, Cree P4, and Seoul P4 equivalencies as well as some new M-compliant builds. It's be no means 100% exhaustive but does come quite a bit closer to showing the possibilities as of this moment. Still... if you don't see it there, please ask! Lots of combinations are possible, it's all a matter of which runtime/output/format tradeoff makes to most sense to you.

Here's the new chart...







The copy shown at the top of this thread should show the new version as well, though you may need to refresh your browser to see it. 

Enjoy!


----------



## Alin10123

Hey MS,
I guess i'm just having one of my moments here. What do some of those abbreviations stand for in your chart? For example "available WH". Also when you say 3-up, 4-up etc... is that the number of emitters?


----------



## milkyspit

Alin10123 said:


> Hey MS,
> I guess i'm just having one of my moments here. What do some of those abbreviations stand for in your chart? For example "available WH". Also when you say 3-up, 4-up etc... is that the number of emitters?




Wh = Watt-hours... if a battery is like a gas tank in an automobile, this refers to how many gallons of gasoline are in a full tank.

n-Up = number of emitters, where n is the number. This term probably comes from printouts on which two pages ("2-up"), four pages ("4-up"), or whatever, are printed on a single sheet of paper.


----------



## Alin10123

milkyspit said:


> Wh = Watt-hours... if a battery is like a gas tank in an automobile, this refers to how many gallons of gasoline are in a full tank.
> 
> n-Up = number of emitters, where n is the number. This term probably comes from printouts on which two pages ("2-up"), four pages ("4-up"), or whatever, are printed on a single sheet of paper.



Thanks for the clarification.
Am i correct in assuming:

more emitters = smaller reflectors = less throw?


----------



## milkyspit

Alin10123 said:


> Thanks for the clarification.
> Am i correct in assuming:
> 
> more emitters = smaller reflectors = less throw?




Not necessarily... for example, M273 in a Mag 2C uses 20mm reflectors, while M273 in a SureFire KL2 head uses 16mm reflectors. Same light, but in a Mag 2C it has significantly longer throw and a more narrow beam overall.

(Incidentally, I've got a handful of hard anodized black Mag 2C hosts here right now, for your building pleasure.) 

There's also a tradeoff in the reflector's inherent throw capabilities vs. sheer number of lumens pumped out by more emitters... for example, does 4 emitters in McR20 reflectors throw better than 7 emitters in McR18 reflectors? The answer's not so easy!

At the end of the day, part of my job is to help steer folks to the right combination of throw, overall output, tint, runtime, operational characteristics, and host format to meet their needs. Project-M lights are meant to be used, and there's nothing that makes me happier than getting just the right match into someone's hands for their own situation!


----------



## Alin10123

Ok. I'm having trouble deciding here. should i pm you?


----------



## milkyspit

Alin10123 said:


> Ok. I'm having trouble deciding here. should i pm you?



Sure, or give me a ring... I just PM'd some info to you.


----------



## milkyspit

M375-KL2CB mounted on a bored-out L1 old-style body WITH dual brightness functionality, roughly 20 hours runtime on the low beam...


----------



## milkyspit

*More Explanation on the Runtime Chart*

A fellow CPFer PM'd me yesterday to ask about reading the new Project-M runtime chart. In case others might have similar questions, here's what I told him...



> 3-up, 4-up, etc., refers to the number of emitters in the head... so 3-up, for example, means 3 emitters.
> 
> The output is encoded into the name itself... so taking one example: in the listing for Seoul-based lights, you'll find a reference to M375... that means that particular light would generate 375 lumens... and looking down that column, you'll first see that it's a 3-up (3 emitter) configuration, then farther down you'll see estimated runtimes running with various configurations.


----------



## ianb

Milkyspit, received my M273 and bodies/tailcaps earlier this week, thanks for the great workmanship :thumbsup:

https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/159494

Ian


----------



## ss2nv

Milky, when you get a chance, could you please PM me to discuss a possible purchase of one of your SF heads? (The one that "ianb" posted above looks promising.)I sent you a PM some time ago, but haven't heard anything back yet. I appreciate it. Thanks.


----------



## milkyspit

ss2nv said:


> Milky, when you get a chance, could you please PM me to discuss a possible purchase of one of your SF heads? (The one that "ianb" posted above looks promising.)I sent you a PM some time ago, but haven't heard anything back yet. I appreciate it. Thanks.




Getting there, ss2nv. Sorry for the delay... been completing a bunch of builds this week.


----------



## pete7226

Milkyspit, I tried reading most of your threads but cant seem to find it. I have a regular newer m3 bezel, not the kl2, is this head acceptable for your mods? if not, whats the difference?


----------



## milkyspit

pete7226 said:


> Milkyspit, I tried reading most of your threads but cant seem to find it. I have a regular newer m3 bezel, not the kl2, is this head acceptable for your mods? if not, whats the difference?




Sure, M3 bezel ought to be fine. There are a couple differences... one (good one), the M3 allows for more vertical room inside the bezel, so the heatsink can be thicker and/or the taller Cree-compatible reflectors can be mounted... other difference (bad one) is that the entire spring assembly needs to be fabricated on the backside, meaning the circuitry will be potted permanently into place and not repairable/upgradable later, unless the entire underside gets rebuilt at that time... also takes a bit longer to build and since everything inside is built from scratch, the price is a bit higher.

Hope this answers your question! Let me know if I can build you something.


----------



## pete7226

Sounds good, what can be built with a few cree's inside my m3? what kind of output and price am I looking at? I take it that the chart above is regarding the T-series turboheads and not the regular M head as far as output goes, correct?


----------



## Alin10123

milkyspit said:


> Sure, or give me a ring... I just PM'd some info to you.



MS, PM sent!


----------



## brightnorm

Scott,

Three project questions:

I have a beautiful M6 with custom tailcap extension that I bought for Andrew's long-awaited 4000+MAh LiON battery pack. Since this _vaporpak _is unlikely to appear I wonder whether you could figure out a M876 application for this extended body with more than 1hr 59m runtime?

Also, your Maglite 1D M876 3x2x123 1hr 59m equals the M6 M876 runtime in what I assume is a shorter body. What length would it be and would thermal management be problematic or inferior to that of the M6 body?

Finally, I have an ALEPH III head along with some Speck and Balrog E-size extension tubes. What multiple Cree/Seoul possibilities might it have?

Brightnorm


----------



## milkyspit

pete7226 said:


> Sounds good, what can be built with a few cree's inside my m3? what kind of output and price am I looking at? I take it that the chart above is regarding the T-series turboheads and not the regular M head as far as output goes, correct?



Actually, no... the columns labeled '3-up' ought to work nicely in an M3 head. In terms of Cree, that would mean these, based on emitters I've got at this moment... of course I can always go source others for the project, too, would give it my best shot, availability varies day by day...

Cree P3-WC (nearly pure white)... M231, M318, X393, X462

Cree P4-WH (hotwire-friendly warm white)... M252, M347, X428, X504

Tough to give an exact price when each build is really custom-designed for that specific customer, so pricing can vary quite a bit from build to build... BUT in general, you'd probably be looking at pricing in the $245-275 ballpark if I were to provide everything (including the head itself) for the build... reduce things by $50 or so if you're supplying the head. Note that I don't generally profit on the parts themselves, and if I can source various components less expensively I will, then pass the savings along! It's happened before, hopefully will happen again. That's always the goal. 

Also, a note on the 'M' vs. 'X' designations... Project-M is all about lights combining high output with extreme efficiency... that said, sometimes a person wants a higher output version of what would otherwise be a Project-M light... since the resulting build fails to meet the efficiency standards of Project-M, I've adopted the convention of using an 'X' prefix for those builds. I'll also occasionally use an 'X' designation for an early build of a particular architecture, something I'm not comfortable (yet) has had enough study to know the runtime characteristics with enough certainty... in these senses, the 'X' could mean either eXtreme or eXperimental as the case may be. Doesn't necessarily mean the light is unstable! Just that it doesn't quite reach the criteria for Project-M inclusion, which are pretty stringent.

Hope this helps! 



Alin10123 said:


> MS, PM sent!



Got it Alin, will reply ASAP. Thanks.



brightnorm said:


> Scott,
> 
> Three project questions:
> 
> I have a beautiful M6 with custom tailcap extension that I bought for Andrew's long-awaited 4000+MAh LiON battery pack. Since this _vaporpak _is unlikely to appear I wonder whether you could figure out a M876 application for this extended body with more than 1hr 59m runtime?
> 
> Also, your Maglite 1D M876 3x2x123 1hr 59m equals the M6 M876 runtime in what I assume is a shorter body. What length would it be and would thermal management be problematic or inferior to that of the M6 body?
> 
> Finally, I have an ALEPH III head along with some Speck and Balrog E-size extension tubes. What multiple Cree/Seoul possibilities might it have?
> 
> Brightnorm



*I have a beautiful M6 with custom tailcap extension that I bought for Andrew's long-awaited 4000+MAh LiON battery pack. Since this vaporpak is unlikely to appear I wonder whether you could figure out a M876 application for this extended body with more than 1hr 59m runtime?*

Sure, I'd love to! :naughty: First piece of information I would need is just how much space we have to work with inside the extended body... from there I could propose a couple power sources to make the most space-efficient use of the extension that we can... and we could confirm the details on the business end of the light, whether we are in fact going with an M876 or something else. PM me or give me a call (think I gave you my phone number, didn't I?) when ready and we can discuss!
:thumbsup:

*Also, your Maglite 1D M876 3x2x123 1hr 59m equals the M6 M876 runtime in what I assume is a shorter body. What length would it be and would thermal management be problematic or inferior to that of the M6 body?*

The bodies would end up about the same length, main reason being the side-mounted Mag tailswitch. That said, I could also build in a cut-down Mag with tailmounted switch for a little shorter overall package if you wanted to go that route... and these days I could also build in a cut-down Mag C-body to fit either an AW Li-ion C cell or a DeWalt A123 cell (plus I can provide a charger for the A123 cell since typical Li-ion chargers won't handle it very well).

Thermal management in a Mag-based platform should be significantly better than in the M6, main reason being there's quite a bit more contact between heatsink and the head and body of the light, so more heat reaches the skin of the light more quickly.

The Mag head is actually slightly narrower than the M6 head. This is a mixed blessing in that it makes for a nice, compact package... but also forces use of smaller reflectors for the same builds... for example, an M637 in M6 typically uses 18mm reflectors, whereas that build in a Mag will use either 16mm or 17mm reflectors... and the smaller size will translate into less throw. (Though overall output will remain identical in both hosts.)

*Finally, I have an ALEPH III head along with some Speck and Balrog E-size extension tubes. What multiple Cree/Seoul possibilities might it have?*

I'm working on some ALEPH III builds right now, so we do have options! Very quickly, I'll mention that an A3 has a 38mm stock reflector, which suggests at the very least we ought to be able to mount 3-4x 16mm reflectors... and MIGHT be able to squeeze 3x 18mm reflectors in there. It might also be possible to fit a pair of 19mm reflectors inside, which would look a little goofy looking down into the bezel, but still would pump out a surprisingly normal-looking beam.


----------



## pete7226

Great! I'll narrow it down and get back to you soon. Thanks
What runtimes are possible using 2x18650 with a x393 or a m347?


----------



## brightnorm

Scott,

You've given me a lot to think about and I realize that I haven't considered beam shape/throw differences between the different size reflectors. I could send you my extended body M6 so you can figure out its possibilities, but if the Maglites are better for thermal management maybe I should forget about the M6?

Choices...choices! I'll be in touch,

Brightnorm


----------



## milkyspit

brightnorm said:


> Scott,
> 
> You've given me a lot to think about and I realize that I haven't considered beam shape/throw differences between the different size reflectors. I could send you my extended body M6 so you can figure out its possibilities, but if the Maglites are better for thermal management maybe I should forget about the M6?
> 
> Choices...choices! I'll be in touch,
> 
> Brightnorm




BN, the harder we drive the output and the greater your expectation for long, continuous runs of your flashlight (as opposed to intermittent use for 5-10 minutes at a time), the more the thermal management advtnages of the Mag make sense. That said, an M637 (7x SSCP4 emitters) in the M6 head makes a lot of sense, doesn't tend to heat all that much, and takes advantage of the larger reflectors we can fit in there. I'll help you sort things out when you're ready.


----------



## pete7226

Sorry to be a pain but, is there any difference in throw between the cree p3 and p4? and when you say hotwire friendly warm white, do you mean similar to incandescent yellow? Lastly, do you expect any seoul p4 to arrive soon and if so, how do they compare with the previous 2 mentioned?Just trying to decide here so I get my request to you. Thanks again.


----------



## milkyspit

pete7226 said:


> Sorry to be a pain but, is there any difference in throw between the cree p3 and p4? and when you say hotwire friendly warm white, do you mean similar to incandescent yellow? Lastly, do you expect any seoul p4 to arrive soon and if so, how do they compare with the previous 2 mentioned?Just trying to decide here so I get my request to you. Thanks again.




Pete,

*Sorry to be a pain but, is there any difference in throw between the cree p3 and p4?*

Cree P4 is a little brighter and therefore will throw a little further... but you probably wouldn't notice the difference unless both lights were side by side and you looked carefully.

Seoul P4 and Cree P4 probably throw about equally well... the Cree sends more light forward, but the Seoul generates more light to begin with, so in the end it's likely to be a very close contest.

* and when you say hotwire friendly warm white, do you mean similar to incandescent yellow?*

Some incandescent enthusiasts find a typical LED to be too 'blue' for their tastes... so while the P4-WH isn't yellow like an incandescent, it's close enough in that direction that most incandescent enthusiasts would find the tint acceptable.

*Lastly, do you expect any seoul p4 to arrive soon and if so, how do they compare with the previous 2 mentioned?*

I already have Seoul P4 emitters... currently have bins USWOH (neutral white), USVOI (warm white), and U-6500K (cool white). Subject to change as I use up existing bins and source new ones.


----------



## pete7226

Last questions before I decide. I'm thinking of the m375 with the seoul p4 in USWOH, these are not so yellow correct? the more I think about it, the more output I want. I know you stated that would be an X designation, what output would be at that next level with the USWOH seoul p4 and what would be an expected run-time on 2x18650? would I be able to keep it continuously on for 10-15 minutes without it shutting off? I'm a little concerned as to the negative aspects of the X designation, what specifically are they in regards to the above mentioned setup if any? Is run-time the main factor in it not being an M designation? would an X designation overdrive the emitter and shorten its life etc.? as long as runtime is about 2 hours and I can have it on for searching at work for at least 10-15 minutes I'll be happy. Thanks in advance for your response, I know you're swamped with work and questions like mine.


----------



## milkyspit

*[size=+1]Updated Master Runtime Chart![/size]*

Just uploaded an updated copy of the master Project-M runtime chart... most significant change is the inclusion of a 3-emitter X-series set of lights as those are the most popular of the X series... included for convenience. Also made various minor corrections in battery capacity, added a few new configurations, removed a few configurations. Finally, changed the '3-up' description that had been confusing some to the hopefully more understandable '3 LEDs'. 

You might need to refresh your browser to see the latest chart... it's in one of the first few posts in this thread.

*[size=+1]For Pete's Sake...[/size]* 



pete7226 said:


> Last questions before I decide. I'm thinking of the m375 with the seoul p4 in USWOH, these are not so yellow correct? the more I think about it, the more output I want. I know you stated that would be an X designation, what output would be at that next level with the USWOH seoul p4 and what would be an expected run-time on 2x18650? would I be able to keep it continuously on for 10-15 minutes without it shutting off? I'm a little concerned as to the negative aspects of the X designation, what specifically are they in regards to the above mentioned setup if any? Is run-time the main factor in it not being an M designation? would an X designation overdrive the emitter and shorten its life etc.? as long as runtime is about 2 hours and I can have it on for searching at work for at least 10-15 minutes I'll be happy. Thanks in advance for your response, I know you're swamped with work and questions like mine.




*I'm thinking of the m375 with the seoul p4 in USWOH, these are not so yellow correct?*

Correct. USWOH should be close to pure white... at the drive level you're considering, it could be just a touch yellow or a touch light blue, but mostly it'll be a very neutral white.

*the more I think about it, the more output I want. I know you stated that would be an X designation, what output would be at that next level with the USWOH seoul p4 and what would be an expected run-time on 2x18650?*

M375 would generate 375 lumens continuous on 2x18650 for 2h52m.

X464 would generate 464 lumens continuous on 2x18650 for 1h53m.

*would I be able to keep it continuously on for 10-15 minutes without it shutting off?*

Yes, that should be no problem. Leave it on longer if you want. 

*I'm a little concerned as to the negative aspects of the X designation, what specifically are they in regards to the above mentioned setup if any?*

In this case the only 'negative' aspect of the X designation would be that the light fails to meet Project-M efficiency standards. There's nothing inherently unstable about an X464.

*Is run-time the main factor in it not being an M designation?*

Yes.

*would an X designation overdrive the emitter and shorten its life etc.?*

Nope! Actually, in most cases Project-M UNDERDRIVES the emitters... and in the case of an X464 the emitters are driven at spec, not overdriven at all.

*as long as runtime is about 2 hours and I can have it on for searching at work for at least 10-15 minutes I'll be happy.*

If 1h53m is close enough to 2 hours, sounds like the light you want is an X464.

*Thanks in advance for your response, I know you're swamped with work and questions like mine.*

You're very welcome!


----------



## ss2nv

Milky, Could you please PM me (or post it here, I guess) a quote for an M375 (3 Crees) custom head that will work with the 1 x 18650 and 2 x 18650 Leef bodies (c tail, m head) I just got in the mail? I have everything I need for an awesome Leef/MilkySpit light, minus the MilkySpit part...heh. Thanks and I'm looking forward to making a purchase as soon as you can get around to it. Thanks in advance.
Seth


----------



## brightnorm

Scott,


I just copy/pasted your chart to WORD, dated it 4/4/07 and deleted the previous version. Would you consider dating future chart updates?

Brightnorm


----------



## milkyspit

brightnorm said:


> Scott,
> 
> 
> I just copy/pasted your chart to WORD, dated it 4/4/07 and deleted the previous version. Would you consider dating future chart updates?
> 
> Brightnorm




BN, yes, by all means I'll date future chart updates! Good point.

In fact, I just added a date to the current chart to get things started... you might need to refresh your browser, then you ought to be able to see it. Current chart dated 4/4/07 at 8:28pm.


----------



## brightnorm

Great, thanks.

BN


----------



## milkyspit

ss2nv said:


> Milky, Could you please PM me (or post it here, I guess) a quote for an M375 (3 Crees) custom head that will work with the 1 x 18650 and 2 x 18650 Leef bodies (c tail, m head) I just got in the mail? I have everything I need for an awesome Leef/MilkySpit light, minus the MilkySpit part...heh. Thanks and I'm looking forward to making a purchase as soon as you can get around to it. Thanks in advance.
> Seth




Seth, PM sent per your request.


----------



## pete7226

Milky, Thanks for going into detail regarding my questions. Can you also PM me with a quote for the x464 with the 3 seoul USWOH including the kl2 head if you have one. If not, I'll send you my newer m3 head, I'd just rather not if you have one incase I decide on a future project. I'll send you an on the way out mn16 lamp assembly for your needs. Thanks again


----------



## milkyspit

Pete, PM sent per your request.


----------



## pete7226

Scott, just sent you PP w/xtra for insurance. Excited already!


----------



## pete7226

Scott, I sent you a few Pm's, sorry, I keep thinking of new questions/combinations. Is it possible to fit 20mm or larger heads-3 or more of them in a Kt2 head?


----------



## milkyspit

pete7226 said:


> Scott, I sent you a few Pm's, sorry, I keep thinking of new questions/combinations. Is it possible to fit 20mm or larger heads-3 or more of them in a Kt2 head?




Pete, no problem and I hope to answer all the PMs ASAP! And yes, 3+ 20mm reflectors ought to fit in a KT2.


----------



## pete7226

Great, I'm gonna have you build one for me at a later date, when you get around to it can you tell me how many 20mm you can cram in a kt2 head. I understand they have more throw compared to the 16mm your putting in my x464? are there larger reflectors for even better throw that I can put 3 of in the kt2? Lastly let me know if you can do anything, say a seoul p4, in a srth head to give better output than the Arcmania tower module I have in ther now. Thanks


----------



## milkyspit

pete7226 said:


> Great, I'm gonna have you build one for me at a later date, when you get around to it can you tell me how many 20mm you can cram in a kt2 head. I understand they have more throw compared to the 16mm your putting in my x464? are there larger reflectors for even better throw that I can put 3 of in the kt2? Lastly let me know if you can do anything, say a seoul p4, in a srth head to give better output than the Arcmania tower module I have in ther now. Thanks




Pete, speaking tentatively, looks like I can fit 5x 20mm reflectors in a KT2 head... if I'm wrong about that I should be able to fit at LEAST 4x 20mm reflectors.

Yes, all things being equal, larger reflectors would generally give better throw. In practice it's actually not that straightforward as there are other, competing factors at work... but you're right, the general concept is true.
:thumbsup:

If your tower module isn't currently running Seoul P4, upgrading to that could improve throw. As to a single emitter in that huge reflector vs. multiple emitters each having smaller reflectors, that's where things get tricky... I honestly don't know which would throw farther. You've got that big reflector working in your favor on the one hand, and the ability to bring far more lumens to bear on the other.


----------



## milkyspit

Just updated the master runtime chart to correct the mAh rating for AW's new C Li-ion rechargeables. You may need to refresh your browser to see the current version, which is dated April 12, 2007, 7:07pm.


----------



## jaybiz32

Scott,
Sent you a few PM's Just checking to see how things were going with my M6 mod. I sent you a note about a future 1d mod. Let me know what you think.
Joe


----------



## milkyspit

jaybiz32 said:


> Scott,
> Sent you a few PM's Just checking to see how things were going with my M6 mod. I sent you a note about a future 1d mod. Let me know what you think.
> Joe




Joe, I hosted PF8 this past weekend so haven't spent as much time on PM and email... then returned to find 99 PM and 175 new emails! In a 24-48 hour period! YIKES! 

No worries, had to order some more emitters but your build is doing fine. Got the heatsinks cut before PF8 and will be mounting emitters for ALL the M6 mods (for a couple other folks as well) this week... then it's mounting of the circuitry on the underside, the usual battery of tests, and done!
:thumbsup:


----------



## MSaxatilus

> then returned to find 99 PM and 175 new emails! In a 24-48 hour period! YIKES!





...I guess this is why we should all give Milky a little slack when it comes to answering questions. Obviously the guy is busy!!!

Wow, good luck Milky.

MSax


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## jaybiz32

Sounds, good.
Thanks


----------



## milkyspit

Strauss asked how I derive the names of my lights over in Arewethereyetdad's *Introducing the New Destroyer* thread... thought it might be worth including over here...



Strauss said:


> Milky; when you give your lights a name like "X600", are you claiming emitter lumens or out-the-front lumens?
> 
> From your specs, I am gonna guess emitter lumens...





milkyspit said:


> Strauss, the way I name a Project-M light or one of its eXtreme counterparts is to take a realistic estimate of emitter lumens based on manufacturer datasheet and third party emitter testing, adjust for differences in drive current (again using third party testing such as the output curves done by Jtr1962 or Newbie), then come up with the total. So essentially it's emitter lumens, in a very conservative way.
> 
> Example: with Dad's light, which uses Seoul P4 U-flux emitters, I started with a base per-emitter output of 91 lumens. That's at the BOTTOM of the range for that bin... put another way, if we got three of the worst-possible emitters that could be labeled as U-flux, they'd each be generating 91 lumens. Then I apply a multiplier of 1.7 based on the consensus results of both Jtr1962 and Newbie's output charts, and of course multiply by three since there are three emitters in the light... result is 464.1, which becomes an X464.
> 
> The intriguing thing is that the emitters are most likely generating more than that. Jtr1962's own testing using an older batch of Seoul emitters, for example, showed them generating 96 lumens, not 91, at 350mA. Still I use 91 as my baseline output figure, to err on the conservative side.
> 
> Also interesting is that Leef's runtime testing on lights I've built, including an X464, showed initial output to be more like 500 lumens OUT THE FRONT. I won't claim that from these lights as again, I'd rather stick with the more conservative number... but it certainly is interesting!



Hope I didn't actually make it MORE confusing while trying to explain!


----------



## ss2nv

PM sent reguarding the M375 head you are building for me.


----------



## milkyspit

ss2nv said:


> PM sent reguarding the M375 head you are building for me.



SS2NV, got it, replied, thanks. :thumbsup:


----------



## milkyspit

*[size=+1]What's Project-M All About? A Recap.[/size]*

*(Posted the original explanation of what Project-M seeks to achieve in the original thread for one of these lights from quite some time ago. As it occurred to me that many folks probably never saw it, and I don't expect them to scour CPF in search of such a thing, it appears below in excerpted form. For the complete, unabridged version, take a look over here!)*

*[size=+1]O[/size]*nce upon a time there was an old lady who had a lot of cats and lived alone in her unobtrusive little country cottage. Seriously. In those days I used to revel in snow days, not so much for not having to go to school, but because they represented a financial windfall! In a good morning's work I could earn $20 shoveling snow at three of the neighbors' homes... and my biggest customer was Mrs. Allmansberger, the elderly cat lady.

I can read your mind, kind reader! "So what the heck does Milky's crazy cat lady have to do with high end lights?" Please, pull up a comfy chair and let me tell you, dear friend. 

My father was cut from old-school cloth... "there's a right way and a wrong way to EVERYTHING, son..." even shoveling snow. I won't bore you with details but suffice to say, I was out there laboring hard, doing quite the professional job of hand shoveling (which to this day I'll defend as totally superior to any plowed or snowblown work! although also far more laborious of course) as my father had so expertly taught me... and out came Mrs. Allmansberger, clad in her signature weatherbeaten coat and black rubbers (when "rubbers" most commonly referred to footwear for inclement weather, and NOT anything sexual)... this itself was unusual as typically my sole interaction with the woman was when she reached out her split-level window to reach down with my payment... she watched for a time, then made this infamous statement: "We don't need an engineer on the job."

I later graduated from Princeton University with an engineering degree.

"So what does this have to do with FLASHLIGHTS! Show me the beef!" you say. Please, read on! 

I've long been overshadowed even at PhotonFest, my own event for goodness sake! because the lights I design tend to be ENGINEERED and don't impress... my personal definition of engineering is the study and application of compromises to achieve the most desirable whole. So my lights aren't brightest, nor largest, nor smallest, nor the strangest colors, nor capable of igniting one's hair... no mine are only reasonably compact lights with good output and decently long runtime, the sort I personally prefer for a good walk through the woods or down to the quarry behind my house. The PhotonFest attendees, God bless them, are very polite... they take the requisite time thoughtfully examining my creations... then move on to the Thors, crazy supercharged HIDs, teeny Larry-inspired lights, big 22x18650 bird cooker headlight-on-a-stick mods (seriously, this exists!), and many, many more. And those lights are impressive, they're fun to play around with! I love seeing all the great stuff folks bring around. Sadly, my small milky fleet gets left far behind.

Now given all the above, which hopefully was at least mildly entertaining...

*Project-M is a family of engineered lights.*

I've been working on what I call Project-M for a while now, developing the concept bit by bit... folks at PF6 saw the M180, an early prototype. A few of you have even, very quietly, purchased M180s though they haven't even been officially announced prior to now. The concept is this: build an LED light that combines bright output with extreme efficiency and very long runtimes. It's not about this or that magic component, but rather the synergies possible in a well-engineered (hopefully!) whole.

Now I am proud to introduce the smallest member of the family, a very rare breed, built into some pristine long-defunct SureFire LED heads and suitable for attachment to an M3 or M6 body...

*The M180-KL2.* *(note: as of this post, the M273-KL2 runs as long as the M180-KL2 but with 273 lumens output.)*

Some basics: the M180-KL2 generates, on average, *180 lumens* overall output continuously, in perfectly flat regulation, for *at least 2.5 hours* off 3x123 primaries or 2x17500 protected 1100mAh Li-ion rechargeables. The beam tint is XO or WO depending on specific choice of emitters. (I personally prefer the XO tint.) The head is very efficient and although it's well heatsinked, will tend NOT to generate much heat at all... in fact, even including converter inefficiency, it draws only 3.7 watts or so of power, which is less than many single LuxIII mods consume. :naughty:

Some photos...

















The head is more-or-less identical from the outside to a typical M3 incan head, but inside is another story.  The M180-KL2 won't win any throw contests against the SureFire lamp assemblies and yet it IS a good thrower... on the straight stretch of road in front of my home, I can illuminate a good 100 yards or so down the road, maybe more. What's interesting here is this head ALSO pumps out quite a bit of bright sidespill, and the tint is about as neutral white as any LED that I've ever had the pleasure of seeing... was extremely fortunate to source a terrific little stash of emitters for this project. 

For comparison, SureFire rates the M3 LOLA at 125 lumens for 60 minutes, and the M3 HOLA at 225 lumens for 20 minutes. The M180-KL2 compares favorably with its 180 lumens regulated for 150+ minutes.







In the photo above of my front porch, the image to left is of course the baseline, unilluminated porch, while image at right shows the M180-KL2 in action. Worth noting that these photos took place during midday on a bright, sunny summer day, so the M180-KL2 was competing with quite a bit of ambient light to begin with! For reference, the distance across the front porch is something along the lines of 20 feet from where I was sitting during the test. BTW, the beam color really IS that white. Note the hotspot hitting the valence over the far window.






The ceiling (not floor!) beamshot does a decent job of showing the combination of flood and throw in the M180 beam. The three emitters do a nice job of collimating into a single, beefy superbeam, and even from 3 feet out, the hotspot looks perfectly round, with nothing to give away the fact that three emitters produced it.






The posterized views (above and below) show falloff of intensity from the central hotspot outward... the photo below is a bit more closeup than the one above. Note that the oval, off-center look is NOT an artifact of the light, but rather an artifact of ME! I was holding the light slightly crooked while trying to juggle both that and the camera to take the shots. Please excuse! 






For closers, a shot of the M180-KL2 doing its best to burn a hole in the carpet. It will fail of course. 






I can honestly say the M180-KL2 is a true workhorse light. Best testimonial on my part is that I instinctively find myself reaching for this light more than for any other... and believe me when I say there are some excellent choices around here! But there's something very compelling about the M180-KL2. The whole really is more than the sum of its parts, and a certain synergy takes over...

It's a product of some decent engineering I guess... hope Mrs. Allmansberger won't mind! 

Or maybe put in the simplest terms: I like it. 

Thanks for sharing... and for the stamina in reading to the very end! CPFers rule.
:bow: :bow: :bow:


----------



## Rookwood

I'd like to add my thumbs-up on this configuration - while I've never had any direct dealings with Milky, I have purchased 2 lightly used M180s over the past year or so. 

One is hosted in a 2 x 18650 in a Mag 2C body. The run time on this is fantastic and it's got great flood qualities. My wife decided that that would be her 'go to' light, so I quietly gave in on that one - I couldn't really argue over it since I have so many lights.

I was really impressed with the output of the M180, but needed one for myself, and I found an M180-K2 (thanks MSaxatilus). Fantastic throw when connected to my M3, but I'm too lazy to switch heads, so I mated the M180 with a Leef 1 x 18650 M-body and the stock SF M3 switch.

Even with all my beloved Mag hotwires, I find myself grabbing this one for 90% of my indoor household duties lately. With the small Leef body, this easily fits in my back pocket if I need a free hand. It's hard to beat in size vs. runtime and as Milky said, it's a real workhorse - not a shelf queen. If you like white, this is the light for you!

:goodjob: from a satisfied user!

Cheers,
Chris


----------



## milkyspit

Rookwood said:


> I'd like to add my thumbs-up on this configuration - while I've never had any direct dealings with Milky, I have purchased 2 lightly used M180s over the past year or so.
> 
> One is hosted in a 2 x 18650 in a Mag 2C body. The run time on this is fantastic and it's got great flood qualities. My wife decided that that would be her 'go to' light, so I quietly gave in on that one - I couldn't really argue over it since I have so many lights.
> 
> I was really impressed with the output of the M180, but needed one for myself, and I found an M180-K2 (thanks MSaxatilus). Fantastic throw when connected to my M3, but I'm too lazy to switch heads, so I mated the M180 with a Leef 1 x 18650 M-body and the stock SF M3 switch.
> 
> Even with all my beloved Mag hotwires, I find myself grabbing this one for 90% of my indoor household duties lately. With the small Leef body, this easily fits in my back pocket if I need a free hand. It's hard to beat in size vs. runtime and as Milky said, it's a real workhorse - not a shelf queen. If you like white, this is the light for you!
> 
> :goodjob: from a satisfied user!
> 
> Cheers,
> Chris



Rookwood, WOW!! For some reason I completely missed your post until now! 

Thank you for the glowing words, they mean a lot and I appreciate it. 

*[size=+1]Two Recent Developments[/size]*

First, just got a new supply of McR16ms reflectors from THE MAN, McGizmo himself. Not sure if he has an official name for these but I've unofficially appended the 'ms' suffix since this run of reflectors incorporate some tweaks I'd requested. They easily outthrow the prior McR16's I'd been using, beam quality is great, and they still provide the gradually-fading field of view that has come to characterize most of the Project-M builds. Thanks again, Don!

Second, I just completed the first 4-emitter build in a KL2 head AND was able to stuff multi-brightness functionality into the build. This one was built for D MacAlpine and is posted *over here*. Here's a quick look at the business end...






(BTW, it also features the new McR16ms reflectors.) :naughty:


----------



## 021411

Hey Scott, I thought I'd ask you on this thread since you have larger lights like the Mag on here..

What are your thoughts on using a Streamlight SL-20X "shell" as a host for a multi-LED/reflector setup using the stock switch? The battery is 6.0V IIRC..


----------



## milkyspit

021411 said:


> Hey Scott, I thought I'd ask you on this thread since you have larger lights like the Mag on here..
> 
> What are your thoughts on using a Streamlight SL-20X "shell" as a host for a multi-LED/reflector setup using the stock switch? The battery is 6.0V IIRC..



The SL-20X ought to work as a shell... to be honest, I'd need to have one in hand to see which size reflectors would fit, how effective the heatsinking could be, etc. In general, though, I see no problem with reusing the general shell of the light for this purpose.


----------



## 021411

milkyspit said:


> The SL-20X ought to work as a shell... to be honest, I'd need to have one in hand to see which size reflectors would fit, how effective the heatsinking could be, etc. In general, though, I see no problem with reusing the general shell of the light for this purpose.



Sounds good. I'll try to give you a buzz some time this week to discuss it and other potential project(s). Yes, an actual phone call! :laughing:


----------



## Mash

Milky, As always in awe of your work!
Looking forward to the day I can order one of your creations for myself!
Have you ever done work on or considered doing something with the Surfire 9N, or 9AN form factor?


----------



## milkyspit

Mash said:


> Milky, As always in awe of your work!
> Looking forward to the day I can order one of your creations for myself!
> Have you ever done work on or considered doing something with the Surfire 9N, or 9AN form factor?




Mash, I've considered it. Haven't had a specific idea gel yet, though I see no problem with building in one of those.


----------



## jaybiz32

Scott,
Any upstaes on the two projects we wesre working on the m6 and the red 1d x800
Joe


----------



## milkyspit

jaybiz32 said:


> Scott,
> Any upstaes on the two projects we wesre working on the m6 and the red 1d x800
> Joe



Joe, the M6 build is ahead of the red 1D in build progress... the most encouraging news is that I finally seem to have all the important components in hand to complete both. Not quite out of the woods yet, but getting there!


----------



## MSaxatilus

> I just completed the first 4-emitter build in a KL2 head AND was able to stuff multi-brightness functionality into the build.


 
Nice!!


----------



## jaybiz32

OK Sounds good. Can't wait. Keep up the good work and keep me informed of any progress/changes.
joe


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## MrMom

Yesterday, I was at a local ****s sporting goods store picking up some last minute camping supplies and ran across a Coast LED headlamp with 6 white LEDs surrounding one red LED. The color rendering was much improved from what I can tell by doing some side by sides with a L4 in the store. Have you ever built a high power version using the same concept?

I spend quite a bit of time camping and hiking in the woods. Standard LED's cast a moonlight hue against all the green foliage. Visual depth is somewhat reduced. The addition of the lost spectrum should bring true colors in better light. 

Perhaps a new light, let's say a "woodsmom", for lack of better term, might be in order????


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## milkyspit

Finished LEDcandle's M637 'Soul Reaver' (his name) the other day... 637 lumens of white LED lovin' in an M6 body, powered by 3x17670 rechargeables... AND I was able to take a half-decent photo! My photography skills are often challenged, so I'm particularly proud that I didn't botch this...


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## milkyspit

LEDcandle's M637-M6 'Soul Reaver' has reached him in Singapore already, and he's even posted a review with some beautiful photos *over here*! I'm downright amazed that the package reached him so quickly. Is this a new States-to-Singapore record?
:thinking:


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## monkeyboy

Hello Milkyspit

PM sent regarding M3 build.


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## monkeyboy

Not sure if you received my PM but this is what I would like;

Surefire M3, with 3 x Cree Q5 emitters (available from Cutter) driven at around 500mA. It should run off of 1 x li-ion, 2 x li-ion and 3 x cr123a.

If Cree Q5 is not possible then I can go for the 3 x SSC option. (M375?)

Can you PM me with a quote? (I already have the M3). Thanks.


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## garbman

Hi Scott 
I have send you mail and pm regarding infos and pricing about M310.3 and M375.
Hope to have an answer soon.
Thanks
Apostolis


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## milkyspit

Monkeyboy and garbman, I got your inquiries, just been focusing on Gotham lately since it's been so close to rollout. Will be in tough soon. :sweat:

Incidentally, the Acorn driver (a Milky-specific board descended from the earlier MC2 project) technically isn't designed for Project-M, but with the right match of power source to emitters it might actually be MORE efficient. In Gotham, for example, a quick calculation suggests average efficiency in the 90-95% vicinity. :naughty:

More info on Gotham *over here*.


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## monkeyboy

I just damaged my M3 head trying to open it up  I'll have to get another one somehow. I don't suppose you have any spare M3-CB heads Milky?

On the plus side, I've worked out how to unscrew the bezel _without_ damaging it at all. It involves; dental floss, white spirit and a strap wrench.

The acorn driver sounds good for the M project. Is it possible to keep it fixed in a single mode? I prefer the simplicity of an on/off light.


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## milkyspit

monkeyboy said:


> I just damaged my M3 head trying to open it up  I'll have to get another one somehow. I don't suppose you have any spare M3-CB heads Milky?
> 
> On the plus side, I've worked out how to unscrew the bezel _without_ damaging it at all. It involves; dental floss, white spirit and a strap wrench.
> 
> The acorn driver sounds good for the M project. Is it possible to keep it fixed in a single mode? I prefer the simplicity of an on/off light.



I've got some KL2 heads but no M3 heads at present. Could probably get an M3 head though.

Sorry to hear about the damage. 

Yes, Acorn driver could run in a single brightness... but if it's to do that, a different driver might make more sense.


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## monkeyboy

milkyspit said:


> Could probably get an M3 head though.


 
That would be great if you could :thumbsup:

I just really like the look of the M3 Crenelated Bezel and it's quite hard to get hold of SF parts in the UK. You usually end up paying double (no exaggeration). We pay the same in UK £ as what you pay in US $ for SF stuff.

I'll just leave the choice of driver board up to you.

How easy would it be to swap out emitters when newer more efficient LEDs become available?


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## milkyspit

monkeyboy said:


> That would be great if you could :thumbsup:
> 
> I just really like the look of the M3 Crenelated Bezel and it's quite hard to get hold of SF parts in the UK. You usually end up paying double (no exaggeration). We pay the same in UK £ as what you pay in US $ for SF stuff.
> 
> I'll just leave the choice of driver board up to you.
> 
> How easy would it be to swap out emitters when newer more efficient LEDs become available?




Swapping emitters basically entails removing the old ones from the heatsink, carefully... then mounting the new ones as appropriate, and wiring everything back into the circuit. It's not a trivial job but it's also not nearly as expensive as buying a new head built from scratch... so my suggestion would be to use the light you've got until emitters have advanced enough to give you a good bump upward... of course, that's entirely your decision, I'm glad to help either way when the time comes! :thumbsup:


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## seattlite

Scott,

Any new "Rebel" offerings in the future?

Richard


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## milkyspit

seattlite said:


> Scott,
> 
> Any new "Rebel" offerings in the future?
> 
> Richard




Sure, I don't see why not! Grabbed a few a while back to fiddle with with respect to finding optimal reflector configurations, etc.


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## monkeyboy

Hello Milky,

I've just had a stroke of genius and now I don't need a new M3 head. I've stripped and polished my M3 bezel ring and now the scratches are gone. Looks pretty cool too. Don't know why I didn't think of that before.







It turned out a lot better than I expected. The fact that the head is now opened is an added bonus.


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## milkyspit

monkeyboy said:


> Hello Milky,
> 
> I've just had a stroke of genius and now I don't need a new M3 head. I've stripped and polished my M3 bezel ring and now the scratches are gone. Looks pretty cool too. Don't know why I didn't think of that before.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It turned out a lot better than I expected. The fact that the head is now opened is an added bonus.




Say, that's pretty darned cool! :bow:

Please let me build in it, pretty please! :naughty:


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## skalomax

Monkeyboy, That looks stunning!


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## monkeyboy

Thanks guys 

I'm almost glad I put those sctraches in the bezel ring now. Of course, I'll let you build in this milky  just let me know when you're ready.

I just hope I don't screw up anything else in the meantime.


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## milkyspit

monkeyboy said:


> Thanks guys
> 
> I'm almost glad I put those sctraches in the bezel ring now. Of course, I'll let you build in this milky  just let me know when you're ready.
> 
> I just hope I don't screw up anything else in the meantime.




I don't have any Q5 emitters at present but am otherwise ready to go, monkeyboy, and I've got your PM to reply to with my shipping address. Get 'er ready for a trip across the pond, it'll be soon.


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## monkeyboy

That's cool. No rush, I'm away until tuesday anyway.

thanks


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## monkeyboy

Any updates?


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## SilverFox

Hello Scott,

I just started a thread on the M615 better known as the Pink Panther...

Perhaps you could stop by and fill in any details that happen to come up. I must admit that I am more interested in using it than what you did to get it to work. I tend to use a light for awhile, then dive into the details.

At any rate, I stole your picture and posted it. I hope that is OK with you. I will try to get some other pictures, but my schedule is a bit cramped right now.

So far, three out of three people have preferred the color rendition of the Pink Panther over my regulated TigerLight. 

While it is too early to know for sure, I am well on the way to being very impressed with the Pink Panther.

Thanks.

Tom


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## milkyspit

Tom, many thanks for your post on the Pink Panther! Sounds like you're having lots of fun with it so far... oops, I mean, getting lots of value out of your serious, precision work instrument. 

*[size=+1]Project-M BuildAssist Checklist, Version 1![/size]*

While answering a fellow CPFer via PM, it occurred to me that some sort of checklist might help folks get their hands around specifically what sort of build they might want... hopefully it will help both customer and me to be on the same page as far as where to expend the most energy in designing their light. I'm honestly not sure if I've got it right yet, but here's a start... :thinking:

1. What size does this light need to be? Is that a firm requirement, or your ideal scenario? How much of an issue would it be to build something of a slightly different size than the ideal?

2. Which head needs to be used? Either a specific head, or an example of how big. Is this a specific requirement or the ideal... if the latter, how much of an issue would it be to build something using a little smaller or larger head?

3. What sort of output are you looking for in terms of minimum and/or maximum?

4. What battery configuration would be most important?

5. What other battery configurations would you need to support, in order of importance? Are these must-have configurations or ones you'd like to have, but maybe don't absolutely need?

6. What are your budget constraints?

7. Please rank these from most important to least important: multi-brightness capability; ability to run with the widest-possible variety of battery configurations; maximal operating efficiency.

8. Are you willing to limit the potential brightness of your light to make it more stable (able to run continuously from start to finish with no heat issues, ability to operate on badly depleted cells, etc.)... or would you prefer to go for the brightest thing possible at the cost of it possibly only being able to run for 15-20 minutes or so at a time?


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## Delghi

PM sent for a KL2 mod


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## milkyspit

Delghi, got your PM, will be in touch shortly.

*[size=+1]Continuation...[/size]*

This thread is continued *over here*.

*Moderators, please close this thread.*


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