# SureFire vs. UltraFire



## 325addict (Jan 22, 2009)

On several sites I read: "why buy a SF? Because they are the best in the world!"

As I'm totally new in the world of incandescent tactical flashlights that work on CR123A etc etc my first buy was an Ultrafire WF-501B. I got it today, I switched it on, and was totally surprised by the output.

Does anybody know how many Lumens this thing REALLY has? The seller stated an enormous amount of Lumens (I actually forgot the number) but in a direct comparison with my MagCharger, this little baby simply outshines it 

Now the question is: HOW much better can it get? Is a SF with the P90 or P91 bulb so much better?? It is at least 5X as expensive, so you might expect some sort of.... revolution AGAIN 


Timmo.


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## Niconical (Jan 22, 2009)

Once you get over a certain point, these lights aren't really competing for the lumens as such. 

A $20 can be brighter than a $200 light, and vice versa. 

What you get for the extra money is the quality of the beam and the light itself, and reliability.


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## StarHalo (Jan 22, 2009)

A sage piece of flashaholic advice - everyone wishes that they had skipped all the cheap lights in the beginning and had just gotten one or two good lights.

Go ahead and buy the Surefire now, there will be no regrets.


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## kramer5150 (Jan 22, 2009)

The 501B-Xenon is good for what it is... cheap incan. I mean youre getting around ~115 Lumens (ballpark conservative estimate) for $9 shipped. Thats AA minimag pricing... FWIW

But the beam quality is pretty bad IMHO. football-kidney bean shaped hot spot, and the build quality varies greatly. My 501B came with scratches and scuff marks all over the OP reflector.

The P61 lamp completely blows it away for overall build quality, beam concentricity, hot spot size and overall lumen output. A P91 would be no contest at all.


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## mdocod (Jan 22, 2009)

The cheap thrills are fun, but there is something to be said for having a few that you can always depend on. This is not to say that all ultrafires stink, there are gems in the rough, I have a couple that are several years old that, with some maintenance, are still working reasonably well. I've since modified them to LED modules and li-ion cells, but that's nor here nor there...

Check out SolarForce if you want cheap but a SF lego compatibility and better drop-in compatibility. 

At some point, you will need to get a SureFire to "understand." hehe... You'll see 

IMO, it's not that SF has brighter stuff, in fact, there is a lot of stuff out there that walks all over SF in output and beam quality for less money, it's more about the total experience and design and build etc etc...

Eric


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## Illum (Jan 22, 2009)

surprisingly, when it comes to comparing flashlights, how bright a light is only ascertains about 25% worth of importance, the rest is on durability, fit and finish, warranty, and modding [expanding] possibility. 

really...in a flashlight's life, its only lit roughly <1/4 of its life, otherwise its on the shelf. Unless its a user of course, then you'll really have to look at durability:nana:


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## Superdave (Jan 22, 2009)

I have a 501b (bought it for my son).. beam quality is decent and it's pretty close to the P90 in my Surefire Z3. If anyone wants i could do some quick outdoor beamshots tonight to compare the 2. 

but as far as fit/finish.. not even close. :thumbsup:


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## cernobila (Jan 22, 2009)

325addict said:


> On several sites I read: "why buy a SF? Because they are the best in the world!"
> 
> As I'm totally new in the world of incandescent tactical flashlights that work on CR123A etc etc my first buy was an Ultrafire WF-501B. I got it today, I switched it on, and was totally surprised by the output.
> 
> ...



Just remember that flashlights are made out to be far more than they actually are. They are no more than a collection of alloy tubes/parts holding a set of batteries, switch and lamp assembly. The internals are far more important than the externals. The difference in the "skins" is the fit and finish. Surefire is known for tighter tolerances and more durable finish, although today some of the cheaper lights come very close. I have many lights but only very few are SF and these have been customized to a large degree anyway. 

First decide on the internals such as battery, lamp, switch and then decide on the host that will allow you to get what you want/need......this is much more cost effective in the long term.


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## Superdave (Jan 22, 2009)

Here is a compairson @ 60'.. 

P90 (2002 version)






Ultrafire 501B






the Z3's batteries have a bit more use as it's usually the host to a turbohead but both are pretty darn close.


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## KeyGrip (Jan 22, 2009)

Surefire built a fan base around build quality and reliability as well as brightness. If you're hoping that a 9P will be 5 times brighter because it's 5 timres the price, you're going to be very disappointed. It will be bright, but most of that money is going to go into other departments.

Now, about your name. Is it a reference to the BMW 325


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## foxtrot29 (Jan 22, 2009)

lol...

These brands can't even be put into the same category. Not even close. It's like comparing fine steak to hamburger. Hamburger that has been sitting in the sun too long. 

I'll leave it up to readers to decide which is the steak.


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## 325addict (Jan 23, 2009)

Thank you all for these wise words :shrug:

So I'll someday have to buy a SF and be sure, it'll live at least as long as I do, and I can always count on it. That's worth a lot indeed! Which one should I buy, to have comparable performance? There are SO many types around as I've seen now....

My 501B came with perfect reflector, NO scratches over the body too, and the hotspot is a fine circle! Maybe beginners-luck :green: or.... it's the effect I also had with Hi-Fi: You are happy with what you have until... you've heard something that's WAYYY better :naughty:

Yes, my name refers to the legendary BMW E30 325i... it's simply the best car ever built! RWD, that silky smooth 6-in-line engine, the sound, the dash, it's all perfect! I wouldn't want to swap it for the newest model... 
I have two of them at the moment, a 2-door and a convertible. The 2 door in technically good shape, the convertible is near-perfect.


Timmo.


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## KeyGrip (Jan 23, 2009)

325addict said:


> Yes, my name refers to the legendary *BMW E30 325i*...



Aw _hell_ yes. My first was an E30 325is. Nothing can compare to that car, enjoy yours while you can!


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## kramer5150 (Jan 23, 2009)

I was playing around with my P61 and 501B LA in a TOP Stryker... and I think I was wrong about overall lumen output the two seem much closer than I remembered

501B in TOP Stryker





P61L in 6P





My particular 501B LA is definitely football shaped, but it evens out in the field so its a moot point really. I had forgotten how much I like the 501B LA. Its important to note that the 501B is running off 8.4V RCR123s and the P61 is running off semi-used Surefire primaries, so its at a 2.4V disadvantage right off the bat. The 501B is more like a 9V lamp compared to the P61.


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## Sgt. LED (Jan 23, 2009)

StarHalo said:


> A sage piece of flashaholic advice - everyone wishes that they had skipped all the cheap lights in the beginning and had just gotten one or two good lights.
> 
> Go ahead and buy the Surefire now, there will be no regrets.


 My Sigline!


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## foxtrot29 (Jan 23, 2009)

325addict said:


> Thank you all for these wise words :shrug:
> 
> So I'll someday have to buy a SF and be sure, it'll live at least as long as I do, and I can always count on it. That's worth a lot indeed! Which one should I buy, to have comparable performance? There are SO many types around as I've seen now....
> 
> ...



Ahhh, now trying to decide which SF to buy is a whole other inner struggle. Even if you were to create a post "Help me decide between these TWO surefire's" You'd get a melange of people split 50/50 on both, and the rest would recommend others not even on your list. lol I myself can't decide which of the new offerings out of their 2009 list that I want (and if they become available in the next 6 months, I still won't know by then which one).


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## Crenshaw (Jan 23, 2009)

:welcome:
Ultrafires are really hit and miss...you can get really good ones, and really crappy ones. youve got a good one, be happy with it...

If youre gonna get a surefire, get a C2 Centurion. Its THE surefire light to have IMO, and you can even use the Lamp Module from your WF-501B

When youre talking about 100 to about 300 lumens, its not JUST about the lumens. Build quality and everything is important because this light is at a level you wil use on a daily (nightly?) basis. 

once you hit 500-1000s, or even 10,000s, its ALL about the lumens...

Crenshaw


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## hyperloop (Jan 23, 2009)

StarHalo said:


> A sage piece of flashaholic advice - everyone wishes that they had skipped all the cheap lights in the beginning and had just gotten one or two good lights.
> 
> Go ahead and buy the Surefire now, there will be no regrets.



+1 on everything he said. But i would just like to point out that most of use will (and sometimes still do) have wondered and bought a budget light to just give it a try 

Reliability is now becoming more important to me, i have mainly jetbeams and they have yet to fail me, sold off almost ALL my DX lights too.

Don't worry about it, its a natural progression


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## brighterisbetter (Jan 23, 2009)

cernobila said:


> Just remember that flashlights are made out to be far more than they actually are. They are no more than a collection of alloy tubes/parts holding a set of batteries, switch and lamp assembly.


This is true. I've seen some polls recently where you pick the one non-negotiable factor when choosing an EDC. Of all the options usually listed, the one that's often left out is reliability. Despite whatever you look for in a light (ie. output, tint, aesthetics, battery type, etc.), the one thing that should be most important to you is reliability. I mean, what could be worse than grabbing a light when you absolutely need it to work and it doesn't for whatever reason? I think that's been Glock's selling point for some time now. I don't own a Glock, nor do I particularly like the styling of their handguns, but they're known the world over for their utter reliability. When you pull the trigger, it fires. Similarly, when you press a button it should light up. I'm not going to go so far as to say that ALL Surefire's are more reliable than ALL xxxxfire's, but generally speaking, there are more threads asking for help on why their xxxxfire's aren't working vs. Surefire's.

It's a bit OT, but think of when a father/mother is buying their son/daughter their first used automobile. The teenager who's never driven before is very keen on looking cool and showing off (ie. tinted windows, shiny wheels, cool paint, etc.) while the seasoned parent is more concerned with the car's drivetrain reliability. When you're a newcomer, it's all about the brightest/cheapest/smallest. As you delve further into the hobby, you learn to appreciate quality does come at a price tag, but it's worth it.


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## 270winchester (Jan 24, 2009)

I paid 40 dollars in 2004 for a 6p. It's been dropped count less times, ran over by my truck, tossed onto concrete, and works like new and water doesn't get in. With a Malkoff M60 it's a very dependable light.

Life is good.


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## 325addict (Jan 25, 2009)

@ Crenshaw: (and others)

I looked a dozen times on the Surefire site today, they really have lots of interesting lights 

My idea for my first one is: a C3 Centurion with P90 module, powered by two 17500s. These would last about an hour I guess.
An upgrade could be the Lumens Factory ES-9 (0,85 Amps and 150 Lumens instead of 105 from P90) or SR-9 (with more current draw (1,22 Amps) and 220 Lumens). More than this, and runtime would be TOO short to make it a practical light.

Of course, the C2 is a handier size, but I've come to the conclusion that (at least with Ultrafire) rechargeable CR123s runtime is VERY short indeed (19 minutes!! The 9V lamp-assembly of the 501B draws 1,3 Amps).

By fitting larger batteries, runtime will increase to about an hour with the right lamp (ES-9 draws 0,85A and will certainly make it over an hour, SR-9 draws 1,22A and will run over 45 minutes with good quality 17500s).
Of course, larger batteries require a larger flashlight, hence the choice for a C3 Centurion....

I think the E1E is a very good EDC. It will run 90 minutes from ONE CR123! That's not bad! It's small, and throws out enough light for me. I very much like incandescents, let's see what the Fenix I ordered does...
If I don't like it, I could buy that cute little E1E with a Lumens Factory 3,6V / 0,8A / 50 Lumens lamp assembly, in that case I could use RCR123s in it 


Just my thoughts for today! I've learnt that you can, indeed, choose two and not three from:
1. small size
2. high output
3 long battery runtime

In the case of the 501B, it has the numbers 1 and 2, but sacrifices number 3 COMPLETELY with a runtime of just 19 minutes 

My Mag 3D is exactly the opposition to it: not so bright, BIG, and has a 10 Hour runtime 
When camping, and having a car with you, the Mag would be the first choice.... the 501B would be dark, before I had pitched up my tent (this is the good old TNF VE-25.... virtually indestructible, but.... you'll be the last from all people to finish pitching it 

Timmo.


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## mdocod (Jan 25, 2009)

Hello 325addict!



325addict said:


> @ Crenshaw: (and others)
> 
> I looked a dozen times on the Surefire site today, they really have lots of interesting lights
> 
> ...



LF bulbs are rated in bulb lumens. SF uses a sort of average torch lumen rating. So an SR-9 and P90 are going to be remarkably similar in total output, just slightly different beam shapes. I would say, if you like the P90 get some use our of it, or use it as a backup to the SR-9. 

You can get over an hour in this setup if you build a 9P equivalent from 18mm cell compatible FM or Leef bodies, and run a pair of 18500s instead 



> Of course, the C2 is a handier size, but I've come to the conclusion that (at least with Ultrafire) rechargeable CR123s runtime is VERY short indeed (19 minutes!! The 9V lamp-assembly of the 501B draws 1,3 Amps).
> 
> --snipped--
> 
> Timmo.



You can get better rechargeable runtime in this size class if you go with a different host option. Again, an 18 mm compatible body is the way to go, to run a single 18650 in this case. You can get around an hour on most of the 3.7V modules available, I've heard really good things about the Wolf-Eyes 3.7V module. Seems to be one of the better performers.

Eric


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## lightplay22 (Jan 25, 2009)

A C3 with a malkoff M60 is a very sweet combination.


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## PhillyRube (Jan 25, 2009)

KeyGrip said:


> Aw _hell_ yes. My first was an E30 325is. Nothing can compare to that car, enjoy yours while you can!



I don't know, my old 2002tii was a blast to drive. That was when BMW was somewhat unknown (British Motor Works?). I had a license plate that said "QSHIP". Used to knock off quite a few 4 and 6 cylinder


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## Snow (Jan 25, 2009)

325addict said:


> Thank you all for these wise words :shrug:
> 
> So I'll someday have to buy a SF and be sure, it'll live at least as long as I do, and I can always count on it. That's worth a lot indeed! Which one should I buy, to have comparable performance? There are SO many types around as I've seen now....
> 
> ...


 
If you've driven an e30, then you know that it's about more than just horsepower. It's the same way with flashlights. You can definitely get a brighter light for less money than a Surefire, but the overall ownership experience is not the same.

I owned a lachssilber '89 325is for about 2 years and it was a fantastic car. Buy a Surefire and experience the same satisfaction.


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## 325addict (Jan 26, 2009)

@ Snow:

Only NOW I fully understand why I should buy a SF 


Timmo.


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## jasonck08 (Jan 26, 2009)

IMHO Surefire is more of a marketing company than a flashlight company. Look at those ads in Popular Science full page ads and stuff. Those have to cost a fortune. When you buy a SureFire, your paying for their HUGE marketing budget. No doubt the quality is there, but it comes at an extreme cost.

I have seen surefires, but never owned one. The quality of my other cheaper lights are pretty comparable.


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## chalshus (Jan 26, 2009)

StarHalo said:


> A sage piece of flashaholic advice - everyone wishes that they had skipped all the cheap lights in the beginning and had just gotten one or two good lights.



Ohh - just like I did. Thank you.


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## paulr (Jan 26, 2009)

You know, if you are after brute power and are in the financial bracket of owning two 325's, you may as well skip the whole P90 style of light and go directly to an M6. There is nothing else like it, even though there are some brighter lights. Even the other models of Surefires are just toys by comparison. The M6's build quality and styling is at a completely different level, and its "wow" factor when you turn it on is just _visceral_.


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## carrier82 (Jan 26, 2009)

325addict said:


> @ Snow:
> 
> Only NOW I fully understand why I should buy a SF



Remember there are other high quality brands as well. Let's take Fenix TK20 for example, which is of superb quality, has long runtime, is bright, has two modes, has a tint comparable to incadescents and runs on cheap and common AA primaries or rechargeables. Okay, it is not incand but you already have one high output light, why not try LED?


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## jtivat (Jan 26, 2009)

jasonck08 said:


> I have seen surefires, but never owned one. The quality of my other cheaper lights are pretty comparable.




I have seen a 357 magnum but I don't think it could kill me.


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## paulr (Jan 27, 2009)

I've never owned a Surefire but I've played with a lot of them and I have four McLuxes and a Spy. I don't think anything comes near Surefire, especially the M6, if you want a tactical incan style of light. If you want a top grade LED light, SF again is probably the king of tactical production lights. If you want something more "civilian" looking, I'd suggest checking some CPF modder lights, although they tend to be even more expensive than Surefires.


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## kaichu dento (Jan 27, 2009)

jasonck08 said:


> I have seen surefires, but never owned one. The quality of my other cheaper lights are pretty comparable.


I have seen the sun, but never up close. The output of my Maglite is pretty comparable.


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## 325addict (Jan 27, 2009)

@Carrier 82: I already ordered a Fenix P1D. I'll see what it has to offer.....
I think this will become my EDC, as it's small and versatile (lets me choose between different levels, and THUS running times).

@Paulr: this M6 is no practical light. It uses 6 CR123s in some special battery-case. On top of that, it's a HUGE monster!
If I want brutal power, I step into my E36 M3 with 321 Horsepower.... THAT's brutal power indeed 
(yes, your conclusion is right: I own 3 BMWs at the moment....)


Timmo.


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## DM51 (Jan 27, 2009)

jasonck08 said:


> IMHO Surefire is more of a marketing company than a flashlight company. Look at those ads in Popular Science full page ads and stuff. Those have to cost a fortune. When you buy a SureFire, your paying for their HUGE marketing budget. No doubt the quality is there, but it comes at an extreme cost.
> 
> I have seen surefires, but never owned one. The quality of my other cheaper lights are pretty comparable.


 In your HO? And what is the "H" supposed to stand for, in the case of the opinion you favored us with there? "Humble" or "Honest"? Can't be either of those - they don't fit there. "Half-baked" would be more accurate.

In _MY_ opinion, your post comes close to trolling; but it is so replete with dumb ignorance that it doesn't even make the grade as a troll post. However, further nonsense of that sort from you will be treated that way. You will not be warned again.


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## kramer5150 (Jan 27, 2009)

jasonck08 said:


> IMHO Surefire is more of a marketing company than a flashlight company. Look at those ads in Popular Science full page ads and stuff. Those have to cost a fortune. When you buy a SureFire, your paying for their HUGE marketing budget. No doubt the quality is there, but it comes at an extreme cost.
> 
> I have seen surefires, but never owned one. The quality of my other cheaper lights are pretty comparable.



I understand that you are entitled to your opinion but I think the definition of what a "marketing company" is needs to be clarified. SF is one of the few flashlight companies who fabricates parts and sub-assemblies in-house. They hold several patents and pioneered various design concepts, many of which have been adopted by the weapon mount industry as standard design and cloned by many others. (The 1" diameter, weapon mountable 2xCR123 format... for starters, others will chime in with more).

Yes they spend a LOT $$$ on product marketing but they are also a flashlight _manufacturing _company, and not just a front who sub-contracts out-sourced fabrication.


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## paulr (Jan 27, 2009)

325addict said:


> @Paulr: this M6 is no practical light.



Welcome to CPF, where practicality is not always a concern. If you can dream it, do it .


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## Snow (Jan 27, 2009)

Another thing you are paying for with SureFire is their customer service. I could call them on the phone tomorrow and tell them I flushed the head to my A2 down the toilet and they would send me a new one. That kind of support is very nice to have.


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## 325addict (Jan 28, 2009)

Yes, I've heard enough: I _definitely must have_ at least ONE SureFire.... the only problem might be, according to "LA Police Gear", that SureFire doesn't ship outside of the USA.... or is LA police Gear simply not shipping outside the USA? According to them, this was "SureFire policy". 
If that's true, I'll have to catch one on eBay 

The first one I want to have is a C3 centurion, together with 2 (or better: 4) AW 17500s this will make a "bright" start I think 

Then, an E1e is the next! But this one in especially hard to find...

Timmo.


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## DM51 (Jan 28, 2009)

325addict, this just a suggestion, but instead of eBay, you might consider buying on CPFMarketPlace. CPFers are very careful with their lights and you'll be able to find almost anything you want in excellent condition, often indistinguishable from new.


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## 325addict (Jan 29, 2009)

Whhhow! How can I be so stupid, not to have looked there until now? I'm so hooked on eBay that I totally forgot CPF has a marketplace....


Edit: I guess I have to register separately for the CPF Marketplace? My login for THIS forum doesn't work....

Timmo.


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## paulr (Jan 29, 2009)

325addict said:


> Edit: I guess I have to register separately for the CPF Marketplace? My login for THIS forum doesn't work....
> 
> Timmo.



Yes, separate registration, but most of us choose the same handle on both servers.


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## foxtrot29 (Jan 29, 2009)

kaichu dento said:


> I have seen the sun, but never up close. The output of my Maglite is pretty comparable.


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