# Good light for accident investigations?



## Schnotts (Dec 3, 2006)

I am a collision investigator with my police force and as I know nothing about headlamps nor have I ever used one, I was at a scene for hours in the dark last month and trying to hold my flashlight in one hand and write notes/diagrams/measurements with a clipboard and pencil was a pain. I'm looking for a nice headlamp that will:
-last a while on AA batteries (I have tons of rechargeables)
-nice and bright for looking around vehicles and on the road
I was looking at a Princeton Tec Apex I think it was called. It seemed nice.
I am mainly into nice bright lights. It's gotta put out lots of light or I'll just strap a candle to my head.


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## moldyoldy (Dec 3, 2006)

Well, you asked for an AA light, but do consider the 3AAA lights. Specifically the Princeton Tec EOS and the Princeton Tech Quad. The PT EOS is bright and has a good throw plus 3 well-spaced levels. The brightness even surpasses some of the 2AA lights. The PT Quad is more flood, but a quite a bright light. THere are other good lights, but I have several of these in my extended family and everyone is satisfied.

Why the AAA lights? because with these AAA lights the battery case is right up front behind the LEDs on your forehead. There is only a single strap going around your head. There is no battery case that hangs on the back of your head - and often gets in the way - much less another strap going over the top of your head to hold the weight of the AA cells. I was really bothered by the cords and battery cases for the 4AA lights getting hooked on something. and you can lay down in a sleeping bag - or bed - and read with the EOS and Quad, albeit not on the high setting.

Tim


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## Schnotts (Dec 3, 2006)

I think you got me convinced on the AAA lights. Having the batteries up front and not wires all over the place is appealing. I'll have to have a look at these two lights. I have 3 AAA rechargeables at home too.


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## Flying Turtle (Dec 3, 2006)

The River Rock 2 AAA headlamp from Target ($15) might give you all you need. Has decent throw and spill, is lightweight, and has two levels which would be handy for filling out paperwork. There are certainly brighter headlamps, with more levels, but most of them will be heavier and more expensive.

Geoff


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## BVH (Dec 4, 2006)

Check out this thread. Maybe you could get someone to mod a production light with a cree and therefore, have tons of light!

https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/143202&highlight=headlamp+cree


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## sunspot (Dec 4, 2006)

I think I will bite the bullet and buy a PT EOS. It looks like it will fit right in with my Apex and Petzl HO (Myo). I'd like a front battery headlamp that's also a bit floody.


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## jayflash (Dec 4, 2006)

Schnotts, one problem with AAA lights is lack of runtime and (possible) mass in the front. The suggested River Rock 2AAA is actually quite light in the front but won't give you many hours of light except on low and it lacks the output of, say the versatile PT Apex. I have both lights but use them for different purposes and feel they are both excellent for their type.

The Eos may be another very good choice, combining attributes of the Apex and River Rock lights. Head lights are a more personal preference because they are worn rather than held. Some of us don't care for the weight of four AA cells at the back of our head while others (me) aren't bothered with it. You may want to experiment a bit before spending a lot. Start with a cheaper one, you can always put it in a glove compartment if you get a better one.


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## Brighteyez (Dec 4, 2006)

You should try holding the flashlight under the armpit opposite your writing hand and angling it so the spill illuminates the paper (an SL20 or Mag Charger will put a little too much light on the forms  .) You can hold your clipboard, Posse Box, Redi-Rite, or whatever with the same hand that is holding the flashlight.

If you want something to illuminate the form itself, there are some LED lights that are used for night reading that might work if you're using a clipboard. Additionally, you might want to take a look at a QuigLite, that attaches to your pocket and can be adjusted for the angle of illumination. (and you won't have to look like a dork with a headlamp on  )



Schnotts said:


> I am a collision investigator with my police force and as I know nothing about headlamps nor have I ever used one, I was at a scene for hours in the dark last month and trying to hold my flashlight in one hand and write notes/diagrams/measurements with a clipboard and pencil was a pain. I'm looking for a nice headlamp that will:
> -last a while on AA batteries (I have tons of rechargeables)
> -nice and bright for looking around vehicles and on the road


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## Schnotts (Dec 4, 2006)

I used my Gladius until I burnt off the batteries and then I busted out my Borealis and lit the whole area up but it was difficult to hold as I stumbled around in the ditch and slowly figured out what happened.


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## Brighteyez (Dec 4, 2006)

That's when something simple like one of the MagLEDs come into play as being a worthwhile product. And if you use up the batteries on one of those, it's probably time to go home (if you started with fresh batteries   you certainly wouldn't be of any further use to anyone at the accident scene.


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## Northern Lights (Dec 5, 2006)

Schnotts said:


> I am a collision investigator with my police force and as I know nothing about headlamps nor have I ever used one, I was at a scene for hours in the dark last month and trying to hold my flashlight in one hand and write notes/diagrams/measurements with a clipboard and pencil was a pain. I'm looking for a nice headlamp that will:
> -last a while on AA batteries (I have tons of rechargeables)
> -nice and bright for looking around vehicles and on the road
> I was looking at a Princeton Tec Apex I think it was called. It seemed nice.
> I am mainly into nice bright lights. It's gotta put out lots of light or I'll just strap a candle to my head.


Been there, but now the majority of the accidents I do are aircraft. I hope you find a good solution because I am all ears here. I have used several styles of head lamps, incandescent, mult-led and single led but I have not found one type that suits the needs you face in accident investigation.
I use head lights almost exclusively--fishing. I usually use the head lamp for throw and when I need up close work as you would to write *I have a small angle head light attatched to my shirt pocket*. Wearing tri-focals can be a problem too as to where you point the beam on the head lamp. You raise your head to use the close vision and the beam goes up too! What I have noticed is the multi led types give a smooth even flood and are OK for close up work, like writing on the Haz-can. I like the 25 led head light for this, 3 brightness levels but is not too good for over 20 feet. The 1w and 3w leds are better at throw and I found the 3W too bright to use up close, ruined my night vision. The beam is narrow with little spill beam. I have considered but have not experience using the incandescents that have a switch that changes the spot to flood level. These have potential. Most of the head lamps represented in CPF are for recreational purposes. Have you looked into the professional lamps used in underground operations, mining?

The angle head light I got from walmart, a small two AA, with a ball like rotating head. Significantly I was ablet to replace the mini-mag style bulb with the niteize three led mini-mag up grade led module. Now it is a pleasant beam to work close by. It takes care of the up close and the head lamp takes care of the mid to long range. The head can be rotated on two axis so you can use it straight up like a mini mag.
Keep safe.


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## strat1080 (Dec 5, 2006)

> Well, you asked for an AA light, but do consider the 3AAA lights. Specifically the Princeton Tec EOS and the Princeton Tech Quad. The PT EOS is bright and has a good throw plus 3 well-spaced levels.


If you need brightness I don't know if anything beats the Apex in an LED headlamp. To be fair the Apex puts out 3X the output of the EOS on high and close to 2X the output of the Quad. I think the Apex is one of the most versatile headlamps out there. You either have a good powerful beam with throw or a very floody light source from the 5mm LEDs. Both have a high and low option. An LEO is probably used to using powerful stuff like Surefires and Stingers. A PT EOS, while pretty bright compared to other AAA headlamps just doesn't have nearly the output that might be required for serious LE tasks. It is mainly designed for hiking when there usually isn't much ambient light. 

When looking for a headlamp for my mountaineering trips I also was looking for something that ran off of AA batteries as my PT Tec 40 and digital camera also run on AA batteries. I don't have any use for AAA batteries for anything else in my house, so I avoided getting a headlamp with AAA batteries. I just started off with a cheap PT Quest, which runs off of 2AA batteries and can use any 2-cell PR bulb. You can throw in a Xenon Magnum star bulb and probably have about 30lumens of light. You should get at least 2 hours on a pair of Ni-MH batteries. Since they are rechargable you have guilt-free lumens. Also due to its very simple design you can change the batteries with your eyes closed and without even removing the headlamp. Just tip it forward remove the existing cells and place the cells in making sure that one goes in positive first and the other negative first.

I use my Quest for taking walks at night with a KPR-104 bulb and Ni-MH batteries. It casts a good beam with decent throw. The hotspot is perfectly round with minor artifacts in the spill beam. I prefer incandescent beams outdoors. They just look more natural to me. If you really want some bright light you can get a PT Vortec or Predator Pro and throw in a 4D Xenon Mag bulb, which should be good for at least 50 lumens. For your uses I would think an incandescent beam would be best. They penetrate tinted windows better, work better with hazy or foggy conditions. For $25 you could just get a PT Vortec and put a bright bulb in it. Its waterproof and very simple. The Quest is the same thing except it uses 2AA instead of the 4AA that the Vortec and Predator Pro use.


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## greenlight (Dec 5, 2006)

Energizer makes 2 styles of led headlamp and they're cheap and available at Target. They work great... buy some for your buddies.


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## Schnotts (Dec 5, 2006)

The mining lamp idea seems interesting. If I could, I'd strap my SL240 Blitz to my head and throw a 12V car battery in a backpack but for writing notes, it's a bit of overkill. 
I think I'm steering towards the PT Apex. Long runtime (I was at the last scene for several hours) and then had to return the next night and its looks nice and bright.
I just found this: Check out these Silva Headlamps (known for making good compasses)..check out the "high powered headlamps"..
http://www.silva.se/
Click on "products" and then go to "links to outdoors" and you'll see a headlamps section. Lots of interesting headlamps.


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## TMorita (Dec 5, 2006)

Schnotts said:


> The mining lamp idea seems interesting. If I could, I'd strap my SL240 Blitz to my head and throw a 12V car battery in a backpack but for writing notes, it's a bit of overkill.
> I think I'm steering towards the PT Apex. Long runtime (I was at the last scene for several hours) and then had to return the next night and its looks nice and bright.
> I just found this: Check out these Silva Headlamps (known for making good compasses)..check out the "high powered headlamps"..
> http://www.silva.se/
> Click on "products" and then go to "links to outdoors" and you'll see a headlamps section. Lots of interesting headlamps.


 
The PT Apex will only run for several hours if you run it at the low setting, I believe. The runtime is less than two hours at the high setting IIRC.

I have a PT Apex arriving in the next few days, and I'm planning on modding it with a 4D cell belt pack for extra runtime. If you're interested in this mod, we can talk and work out details.

The Silva/Brunton headlamps have been discussed in this forum before. If I remember correctly, peopel complained the beam was too tight - all spot and no sidespill. 

Toshi


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## Schnotts (Dec 6, 2006)

I just settled on the PT Apex. Pretty long run time, bright, lot's of modes. Grabbed one on e-bay for about 1/2 the price of getting one here in town.
Hope I like it!


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## strat1080 (Dec 6, 2006)

There is a lot of misconception out there about the runtimes with the Princeton Tec Apex. There runtimes are how long they will run in regulation or full power. It will practically run forever on low when it kicks out of regulation. Princeton Tec has been inconsistent with their battery life specs. On some models they use total run time and on others the duration of regulation. The bottom line is the Apex will run about 10x longer than the advertised run times because the advertised run times are only talking about regulation. It will run for 150hrs on its lowest setting, which is more than enough.



TMorita said:


> The PT Apex will only run for several hours if you run it at the low setting, I believe. The runtime is less than two hours at the high setting IIRC.
> 
> 
> Toshi


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## beastie boar (Dec 6, 2006)

The PT Yukon Extreme might be another viable option for your type of use, as its regulated incan would give better color recognition and considerable throw. The bulb hosts 2 filaments for 2 levels of light. The three 5mm LEDs have 2 light levels as well. The external 8 AA battery pack (not water resistant, so it has to be worn under ones coat) increases bulk, but on the other hand provides extensive runtime.
Otherwise the Apex is an excellent choice.


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## Lips (Dec 6, 2006)

strat1080 said:


> There is a lot of misconception out there about the runtimes with the Princeton Tec Apex. There runtimes are how long they will run in regulation or full power. It will practically run forever on low when it kicks out of regulation. Princeton Tec has been inconsistent with their battery life specs. On some models they use total run time and on others the duration of regulation. The bottom line is the Apex will run about 10x longer than the advertised run times because the advertised run times are only talking about regulation. It will run for 150hrs on its lowest setting, which is more than enough.




In regulation I believe 14hrs on high with E2 lithium cells... Awesome light!


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## BillCurnow (Dec 6, 2006)

I often deal with case paperwork and damage assessments at night so I know what you mean about juggling the paperwork and a flashlight. I solved the problem with a QuiqLite XP-440 (white, white model). It's small, clips on just about anywhere, provides amble light for paperwork, and most importantly doesn't blind anyone I may be interviewing at the time.


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## Dadof6 (Dec 6, 2006)

Another alternative to a plain headlamp light is a clip on made by surefire or something like HDS.

The nice thing about an HDS is you can change the brighness levels to a low when filling out a form on a white paper (low so you don't blind yourself) or high for reviewing a scene. It doesn't look at geeky because when you're done you put it in your pocket and your just wearing a ballcap like everyone else.


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## bwaites (Dec 6, 2006)

WOW, no REAL headlamp fans here! I guess it's the wrong forum!

Not one of the light mentioned is even in the same category as the Stenlight! 

Yes, they are expensive, but they don't break, ever! 

http://www.jsburlysflashlights.com/cgi-bin/ccp51//cp-app.cgi?usr=51I601942&rnd=342512&rrc=N&affl=&cip=66.172.99.52&act=&aff=&pg=prod&ref=S7_Headlamp&cat=Head+Lamps&catstr=HOME:Head+Lamps

I really liked the Apex, until I got the Stenlight, it's a huge difference, and the fact that you can change optics to reflectors to optics, (I'm currently running very wide optics in mine, the beam looks like a big, wide bar of soap.) is a huge plus. You can mix and match to get the beam you want, from broad and floody to narrow and throwy, and because it has two LuxIII's, you can have both!

It's waterproof, dustproof, and has at least 3 different battery options, from rechargeable LiIons, to NIMH, to alkaline, to 9 volt cells.

Multiple light levels, etc.

Bill


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## yellow (Dec 6, 2006)

Northern Lights said:


> I have a small angle head light attatched to my shirt pocket


I`m with Northern Lights on this one.
such a light and the powerful handheld for looking around.

No chance to RESPECT anyone looking like a dork with his headlamp 
(headlamp on an accident scene? Joke?)


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## TMorita (Dec 6, 2006)

Brighteyez said:


> ...
> (and you won't have to look like a dork with a headlamp on  )


 
In many circles, such as caving, it's considered pretty dorky to use a flashlight, because it's so cumbersome. For example:

http://www-sop.inria.fr/agos/sis/slang.html

Speleobopper - (1) Teenybopper in a cave, or generic flashlight-caver
(any age). See Dufus, Nerd Gate).

Toshi


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## bwaites (Dec 6, 2006)

Geez, at an accident scene I respect ANYONE with a badge and a light!!

Headlamps are perhaps the ultimate work lights, and far too many people don't use them!

Light where you need it, when you need it. And if it is adjustable, even better. 

I've even used mine working in my shop, because sometimes the overhead lights create the shadow at just the wrong spot for what I an doing.

Bill


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## Schnotts (Dec 6, 2006)

I will be the guy bumbling around in the ditch with the light strapped to my head. :laughing:


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## Sway (Dec 7, 2006)

I made a few run time plots with the PT Apex awhile back using different settings and batteries, they can be found here.

Hope this helps.

Later
Kelly


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## strat1080 (Dec 7, 2006)

I think a Stenlight makes sense for a miner or an extreme caver. It probably wouldn't be as handy for a LEO. It is much more complicated and is designed to be used with a helmet. It also costs $300. While it may be probably be the best headlamp out there it just isn't really practical for an LEO. An LEO would probably just be using the headlamp in certain circumstances and would probably be slipping it on and off rather frequently. A Princeton Tec Apex is a fine headlamp and will probably suit Schnotts's needs rather well. An LEO is probably better off with a $100 headlamp and spend the $300 on a cool Surefire rather than a headlamp. A serious caver is probably better off with the $300 headlamp. Two different needs here.



bwaites said:


> WOW, no REAL headlamp fans here! I guess it's the wrong forum!
> 
> Not one of the light mentioned is even in the same category as the Stenlight!
> 
> ...


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## Brighteyez (Dec 7, 2006)

Understood, headlamps are designed with specific uses in mind. It's use is somewhat specialized and they are very effective in such situations, including bicycle riding these days, though the yo-yo's that go around with their Luxeon headlamp strobing into the back window of a passenger car don't realize that what they perceive as conspicuity may actually be their invitation/contribution to an accident. 

In any case, I did not mean to imply that the usage of any use of a headlamp would be dorky, just that it may seem out of place in some applications; sorry about the ommission. They definitely have their uses in situations where you need both hands. And yes, I do own a couple myself.

I think one of the funniest ones that I've seen, was a group of kids walking down an urban residential street, with one of them wear a headlamp (no helmet/hardhat, no cap, just the headlamp  ) 



TMorita said:


> In many circles, such as caving, it's considered pretty dorky to use a flashlight, because it's so cumbersome. For example:
> 
> http://www-sop.inria.fr/agos/sis/slang.html
> 
> ...


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## Blazer (Dec 7, 2006)

Problem Solved.


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## Brighteyez (Dec 7, 2006)

They're a little difficult to set up at an accident scene in a ditch and they do take a little bit of time to set up (about 15 minutes or so?)

And at $400 a pop for the bulbs, you can't very well go down to the local stop&rob to pick up a replacement.

But having used those lights, they do definitely shed light on the situation 



Blazer said:


> Problem Solved.


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## bwaites (Dec 7, 2006)

strat1080,

He isn't a typical LEO, he IS an accident investigator.

While I would agree with what you say for a normal LEO, his situation is somewhat different.

I don't look at the Stenlight as any more complicated than any multi-level flashlight. It's easy to use, has a dedicated strap, and works well on helmets, hats, or your bare head.

I would rather buy ONE Stenlight, then buy multiple other headlamps over the years. 

I've tried that route and didn't like it!

Bill


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## strat1080 (Dec 7, 2006)

I'm just simply saying that not everybody needs a $300 headlamp. You're painting the picture that an PT Apex is just simply a toy and that everyone should own a Stenlight. Although he's not a normal LEO he is a police officer who does work for a police agency. Its not like he is a contractor or something. He said his main use for the headlamp is to fill out reports. I just don't really think a $300 headlamp is required for that. I would think a decent headlamp accompanied with an excellent flashlight like a Surefire would be excellent for his uses. Thats just my opinion anyway. We'll have to agree to disagree.



bwaites said:


> strat1080,
> 
> He isn't a typical LEO, he IS an accident investigator.
> 
> ...


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## Gaffle (Dec 7, 2006)

PT Apex. Good regulatoin runtime with NiMh rechargeables.

I also have to lay one out for the Petzl Myo Xp. Direct drive is ok, but this light has a diffuser lens built in. Nice for flood or spot. I use both constantlly.


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## Schnotts (Dec 7, 2006)

I want one of those big lights that you tow on a trailer. That would work nicely. i'm looking forward to picking up the Apex. It will be multi purpose. I can use it for camping as well as work.
I'm a regular LEO however I like to do traffic enforcement when I'm not doing calls and I do fatal accidents.
 
By the way, I freeze in the winter up here when I'm out there for hours. Perhaps the apex will come with a heater in the future.


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## Brighteyez (Dec 7, 2006)

Just taking a wild guess, I'd guess that either the PD or the Public Works department in Toronto probably has the light with the generator that you can two behind your car. Actually it already comes mounted on the trailer.

Doesn't work well for camping though, the neighbors just call the rangers and complain about a bunch of guys with guns running a generator too loud  But it works great for sobriety check-points and crime scenes as well.

BTW, we've been getting freezing weather down here for the last couple of weeks as well. Would you guys mind keeping your Chinooks to yourselves? 



Schnotts said:


> I want one of those big lights that you tow on a trailer. That would work nicely. i'm looking forward to picking up the Apex. It will be multi purpose. I can use it for camping as well as work.
> I'm a regular LEO however I like to do traffic enforcement when I'm not doing calls and I do fatal accidents.
> 
> By the way, I freeze in the winter up here when I'm out there for hours. Perhaps the apex will come with a heater in the future.


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## bwaites (Dec 7, 2006)

strat, 

In comparison, the Apex IS a toy, I've had two break without ever even hitting them, one simply cracked within days of buying it, (replaced for free, the other broke within weeks.) Others have had similar experiences with them, and there is a thread here somewhere talking about it.

This guy is in one of the coldest environments around, Northern freakin' Ontario, I wonder what 50-60 below will do to that plastic?

I simply recommend the best tools available, no one I know has ever regretted buying quality, but I know lots who have regretted NOT doing so!

I've been on those accident sites, having your hands free is a HUGE benefit! Why buy two lights when one will do the job?

I guess we will have to disagree on this one!

Bill


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## strat1080 (Dec 8, 2006)

I wasn't aware of the breakage issues with the Apex. All the comments I've seen on this forum have been pretty positive about the Apex. At 50- degrees I would be more concerned at what would happen to the batteries than the plastic. I believe the casing is polymer, according to FLR, which has been proven to be a very tough material. Even firearm frames are now being made out of polymer. People have climbed Mt. Everest using Princeton Tec headlamps. I've done winter mountaineering trips with my PT Quest. It has held up quite well. I've been thinking about getting an Apex but I think I will investigate the breakage issues. 

As to why use 2 lights? Because no headlamp (including the Stenlight) even begins to approach the power of something like a Surefire M3 or M4. These lights will peform well in any environment. When you really want to light up a good area and have strong throw they are the only option. I looked on the Stenlight website and it still says that the AA conversion pack and headstrap are still TBD, so I guess the issue moot anyway. Its not available to Schnotts in a configuration that is practical to him. 




bwaites said:


> strat,
> 
> In comparison, the Apex IS a toy, I've had two break without ever even hitting them, one simply cracked within days of buying it, (replaced for free, the other broke within weeks.) Others have had similar experiences with them, and there is a thread here somewhere talking about it.
> 
> ...


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## dfred (Dec 8, 2006)

strat1080 said:


> I wasn't aware of the breakage issues with the Apex.


They were mostly reported in the first several months after the Apex was released. There was some anecdotal evidence that the orange models were more prone to this. Here's one of the main threads on the topic: 

https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/104881

It appears PT determined this problem was caused by overtightening of the screws within the head assembly. I haven't heard of many cases since, other than folks who opened-up their units and then had them crack after reassembly. A case of that happening is described at the end of this thread:

https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/127201

I've used mine outside fairly extensively in the cold (down to around 5F/-15C) and never had any trouble. And I believe there are one or more Fennoscandian CPFers who have spoken of using the Apex in what I have to assume are fairly cold conditions.


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## bwaites (Dec 9, 2006)

JSBurleys have stocked both the headstrap and AA packs since last winter, I got both from him, although everything Stenlight appears to be out of stock right now.

My Apexes (Apii?) were bought soon after they became available, so they might have fallen into the groups mentioned above.

The M3/M4 both cost close to what Stenlight does, so this is an expensive proposition. If I was an LEO, though, I'd be carrying a Tigerlight with OC, but I'm not sure if they are legal, even for LEO's in Canada.

My M3 is one of my favorite lights, in either guise, M3 or M3T, but they eat up cells pretty fast and neither can run on AA's!

Bill


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## Schnotts (Dec 9, 2006)

We have to give someone a pepper sandwich with the stuff they give us. I asked and the Tigerlight won't fly. It's stupid but thats the way it is...at least with my employeer which has people who's job it is to count paperclips.

he M3/M4 both cost close to what Stenlight does, so this is an expensive proposition. If I was an LEO, though, I'd be carrying a Tigerlight with OC, but I'm not sure if they are legal, even for LEO's in Canada.


Bill[/QUOTE]


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## SilverFox (Dec 9, 2006)

Hello Schnotts,

If you are looking for a quality headlamp, and are on a budget, you may want to check out the PT Yukon Extreme.

You can read up on it here.

Tom


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## Schnotts (Dec 9, 2006)

What a fantastic read. Now I want one of those too. Great info!


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## Schnotts (Dec 14, 2006)

My Apex just came in and I tried it out in the darkness of the house. I like it!


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## dfred (Dec 14, 2006)

And this time of year you only have a few more minutes before it is dark outside!


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