# Test/Review of Sanyo/Panasonic NCR18650GA 3500mAh (Red)



## HKJ (Apr 8, 2016)

[size=+3]Sanyo/Panasonic NCR18650GA 3500mAh (Red)[/size]







Official specifications:

Rated capacity: 3300mAh
Minimum capacity: 3350mAh
Typical capacity: 3450mAh
Nominal voltage: 3.6V
Discharge end voltage: 2.5V
Charging current (Std.): 1.675A
Charging voltage: 4.20 +/-0.03V
Charging time (Std): 4.0 hours
Continuous discharge current (Max.): 10A
Internal resistance (AC 1kHz): <38mOhm
Cycle life: 300 cycles to 70%
Weight: <49.5g
Operating temperature: Charge: +10 ~ +45°C, Discharge: -20 ~ +60°C
Storage conditions: less than 1 month: -20 ~ +50°C, less than 3 months: -20 ~ +40°C, less than 1 year: -20 ~ +20°C (80% capacity left)






A high capacity cell from one of the largest LiIon manufacturer.




























As expected these discharge curve is tracking nearly perfectly. The cells are high capacity cell, but can deliver some current.
Because I cut the discharge at 2.8 volt, I do not get the full capacity from the cell.
















The cells are rated for 10A and at 15A discharge the batteries gets very hot, on the first cell I terminated discharge at 75°C and the second cell I terminated at 85°C (The maximum allowed cell temperature is 70°C).

































[size=+3]Conclusion[/size]

These cell has very good capacity and can also handle current, this makes it one of the current top cells for that.
Being from Panasonic there is no doubt that it is good cells.



[size=+3]Notes and links[/size]

How is the test done and how to read the charts
How is a protected LiIon battery constructed
More about button top and flat top batteries
Compare to 18650 and other batteries


----------



## sidecross (Apr 8, 2016)

Thank HKJ for the review.

I have been using this cell and have been very pleased with it. :thumbsup:


----------



## akhyar (Apr 8, 2016)

Thanks again for the excellent review HKJ


----------



## markr6 (Apr 8, 2016)

Thanks! This is ALL I use anymore. I always knew it was a winner, but I've been looking forward to your review just because


----------



## SubLGT (Apr 8, 2016)

HKJ, in some of the curves in the 1st graph, there is a vertical tail. Does a vertical tail always indicate early discharge termination due to excess temperature?


----------



## stephenk (Apr 8, 2016)

Thanks HKJ for the review of this popular cell!


----------



## MAD777 (Apr 8, 2016)

Thank you for yet another battery review and for keeping us safe!


----------



## Devon (Apr 8, 2016)

As I suspected, probably the best cell of its type on the market and confirmed.

Thanks again HKJ.


----------



## HKJ (Apr 9, 2016)

SubLGT said:


> HKJ, in some of the curves in the 1st graph, there is a vertical tail. Does a vertical tail always indicate early discharge termination due to excess temperature?



No, my curve recording first stops when the battery temperature is below 50°C and temperature termination is at 85°C, this means there is a temperature range where I will get a tail without early termination.


----------



## StorminMatt (Apr 9, 2016)

Looks like this cell actually has a little MORE capacity above 2A than the very rare and expensive NCR18650G, not to mention that it holds its voltage better (and goes for a song in comparison to the overpriced NCR18650G). Even below 2A, the capacity advantage of the NCR18650G is virtually nonexistant. Looks like there is no reason to get that cell anymore.


----------



## Gauss163 (Apr 9, 2016)

HKJ said:


> No, my curve recording first stops when the battery temperature is below 50°C and temperature termination is at 85°C, this means there is a temperature range where I will get a tail without early termination.



To help readers understand this matter better I recommend that you fill in the blanks below:

In every graph above the exact termination condition I use is ....
The reason the tails appear in some curves and not others is ...
The tails of the curve represent ....


----------



## HKJ (Apr 9, 2016)

Gauss163 said:


> To help readers understand this matter better I recommend that you fill in the blanks below:
> 
> In every graph above the exact termination condition I use is ....
> The reason the tails appear in some curves and not others is ...
> The tails of the curve represent ....



This kind of stuff is usual explained in the article I link at the bottom. That article has not been updated to include explanation of the tails yet, because I have not decided on exactly what parameters to use.


----------



## Gauss163 (Apr 9, 2016)

HKJ said:


> This kind of stuff is usual explained in the article I link at the bottom. That article has not been updated to include explanation of the tails yet, because I have not decided on exactly what parameters to use.



Searching on "termination" in the linked article yields no such explanation. No do I see any explanation of the role that temperature plays in your termination algorithm. These are all essential things to know in order to be able to comprehend the graphs. Why not take a few moments to explain them, e.g. fill in the blanks above?


----------



## HKJ (Apr 9, 2016)

Gauss163 said:


> Searching on "termination" in the linked article yields no such explanation. No do I see any explanation of the role that temperature plays in your termination algorithm. These are all essential things to know in order to be able to comprehend the graphs. Why not take a few moments to explain them, e.g. fill in the blanks above?



As I wrote above, the tail is new, same with the temperature and I am not going to update any explanation before I have it working perfectly and can add a chart.
Until then explanation may or may not be included in the review (There is some explanation in a few reviews) and will be given when people ask.


----------



## Gauss163 (Apr 9, 2016)

HKJ said:


> (There is some explanation in a few reviews) and will be given when people ask.



In case it was not clear, my suggestion was also meant as a request, since I cannot make heads or tails of your prior terse "explanation" (even though I know these matters like the back of my hand).


----------



## HKJ (Apr 9, 2016)

Gauss163 said:


> In case it was not clear, my suggestion was also meant as a request, since I cannot make heads or tails of your prior terse "explanation" (even though I know these matters like the back of my hand).




Discharger is stopped when voltage is below 2.8 volt or temperature is above 85°C (This limit has been lower in my earlier charts).
I will continue to record voltage and temperature (together with zero current), until the battery temperature is below 50°C. This is what gives the tail in the chart.


----------



## Gauss163 (Apr 9, 2016)

Thanks, that is much clearer. That's what I would have guessed, except it wasn't clear how long you kept recording for (hard to guess accurately from the tail). It is always helpful to be explicit about these things since there is no standard.


----------



## SubLGT (Apr 9, 2016)

Apparently, Efest is rewrapping this battery and rating it at 20A continuous! It's temperature at 20A is 111 degC! Yikes!

https://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/f...ts-just-another-rewrapped-10a-battery.736533/


----------



## Gauss163 (Apr 9, 2016)

@SubLGT Thanks for the link, and more kudos to mooch for continuing his crusade to expose such fraud. I confess I am shocked that Efest is so bold/foolish to continue their fraudulant marketing after it has been so widely exposed.

It's nice to see that HKJ and others are also starting to expand their reviews to include more higher current tests along with temperature data - the area that mooch has always concentrated on (since it it crucial for extreme vaping).


----------



## recDNA (Apr 9, 2016)

The new Olight 3200 and 3600 contain protection only at positive end. Do you know anything about it? Is any element of protection sacrificed in this new configuration? Thanks


----------



## jonnyfgroove (Apr 9, 2016)

^^Why quote his entire post to ask an off topic question? :shakehead


----------



## HKJ (Apr 9, 2016)

recDNA said:


> The new Olight 3200 and 3600 contain protection only at positive end. Do you know anything about it? Is any element of protection sacrificed in this new configuration? Thanks



It is the same protection chip and transistors that is used, but usual there is only space for one transistor at the top and this means the current is limited at a lower value than on bottom protected cell. This might have been improved, but only test will tell.


----------



## recDNA (Apr 9, 2016)

Thanks! So it still has PTC and PCB? 

I noticed Olight no longer claims heat protection - only short circuit protection. Hopefully they will send you some to review.


----------



## HKJ (Apr 9, 2016)

recDNA said:


> Thanks! So it still has PTC and PCB?



PTC is build into the cell, but will usual be missing from high current cells.
PCB is short Printed circuit board, that is the circuit board with the protection chip and transistor.




recDNA said:


> I noticed Olight no longer claims heat protection - only short circuit protection. Hopefully they will send you some to review.



The chip do not have over heat protection, that is always supplied by the PTC and usual means a permanent change to the cell when triggered.
I do not believe Olight has ever sent me batteries for review, the ones I have tested I have bought myself.


----------



## Gauss163 (Apr 9, 2016)

HKJ said:


> The chip do not have over heat protection, that is always supplied by the PTC and usual means a permanent change to the cell when triggered.



By "permanent change" are you referring to the possibility that the PTCs resistance may go up after resetting, or something else? 

Have you ever tested PTC behavior in cells?


----------



## sidecross (Apr 9, 2016)

jonnyfgroove said:


> ^^Why quote his entire post to ask an off topic question? :shakehead


+1

I usually edit a quote to show only the portion that is relevant.


----------



## HKJ (Apr 9, 2016)

Gauss163 said:


> By "permanent change" are you referring to the possibility that the PTCs resistance may go up after resetting, or something else?
> 
> Have you ever tested PTC behavior in cells?



Exactly, specification on cell often says that the PTC resistance may go up. The PTC's I uses do not do that, they return to their old values, but there is probably a reason the manufactures specify that.
I do not run cells hot enough to test PTC's on purpose, but you might find some cases of it in my battery tests.


----------



## Gauss163 (Apr 9, 2016)

Maybe it takes a few trips before the PTC resistance increases significantly. On p.16 of these slides they remark about reversibility that after a few trips they saw an increase from 20mΩ to 30-40mΩ and, further, the PTC becomes more sensitive and trips earlier. 

The slides are a nice brief intro for those readers who are new to the topic.


----------



## sidecross (Apr 9, 2016)

Gauss163 said:


> Maybe it takes a few trips before the PTC resistance increases significantly. On p.16 of these slides they remark about reversibility that after a few trips they saw an increase from 20mΩ to 30-40mΩ and, further, the PTC becomes more sensitive and trips earlier.
> 
> The slides are a nice brief intro for those readers who are new to the topic.


+1

Thank you for the link! 

The more information I receive reminds me of a quote by Dennis McKenna "The bigger the bonfire the more darkness revealed'.


----------



## stephenk (Apr 9, 2016)

recDNA said:


> The new Olight 3200 and 3600 contain protection only at positive end. Do you know anything about it? Is any element of protection sacrificed in this new configuration? Thanks



Having the protection at the +ve end means that there isn't a strip along the whole length of the cell. However I have seen reports (I think on another forum) that showed the Olight's to have quite "aggressive" current protection compared to the Keeppower, EagleTac, and Evva protected GAs. 

It is also still reasonably long at 68.7mm.


----------



## recDNA (Apr 9, 2016)

sidecross said:


> +1
> 
> I usually edit a quote to show only the portion that is relevant.





jonnyfgroove said:


> ^^Why quote his entire post to ask an off topic question? :shakehead


The connection to the topic is the Olight cell is rumored to contain the GA. (I could easily be wrong about that but it is my understanding) I quoted the entire post because I don't know how to quote a small section of a post using my phone. Sorry. Nevertheless HKJ has explained in a way that helped me understand heat protection better. I hope others may have also found it interesting.

I don't like the strip between + and - because a nic in the wrapping might cause a short at that spot. I hope that the Olight is a safer way to use the GA reviewed here. Since it apparently lacks any heat protection (if I understood properly) it may not be the best choice for me.


----------



## sidecross (Apr 9, 2016)

recDNA said:


> I quoted the entire post because I don't know how to quote a small section of a post using my phone



I use only a dumb-phone and at times it is an advantage.


----------



## CelticCross74 (Apr 9, 2016)

Thank you for another excellent review HKJ! I only have one light that uses an unprotected cell in the ZL MkIII HI which I use this very cell for. I am quite impressed by it thus far


----------



## KeepingItLight (Apr 9, 2016)

recDNA said:


> Since it apparently lacks any heat protection (if I understood properly) it may not be the best choice for me.



I understood HKJ to say that the heat protection is built into the core battery, not the add-on protection circuit. Regular ICR batteries include the PTC, even when they are unprotected. High-draw batteries might not.

The PTC layer inside the cell is the heat protection. It is a membrane that allows ions to pass through it at lower temperatures. When hot, it closes down, so that ions cannot cross it. 

As discussed above, after a thermal shutdown, if you allow the membrane (and battery) to cool, it can recover partially or completely.


----------



## recDNA (Apr 9, 2016)

Now I understand that. I did not before. I have no need for more than 4 amps anyway so no reason for me to buy a protected GA of any flavor. I would prefer there to be some sort of heat protection built into the cell.

I do not really care in the cell is usable after heat protection kicks in. I only care that the heat protection DOES kick in. I can afford a new battery... Not so much a fire.


----------



## HKJ (Apr 10, 2016)

KeepingItLight said:


> The PTC layer inside the cell is the heat protection. It is a membrane that allows ions to pass through it at lower temperatures. When hot, it closes down, so that ions cannot cross it.



No, that is a HRL (Heat resistive layer), a PTC is placed at the top of the cell (see here: http://lygte-info.dk/info/isMyBatteryProtected UK.html ).


----------



## KeepingItLight (Apr 10, 2016)

^^^ I love being corrected! That's when I learn.

Thanks, HKJ. I am off to read your article.


----------



## tigfur (Nov 13, 2016)

How do you recognize a fake battery? All i have is a cheap multimeter, i wonder if these can be real for the price
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/2PC..._1&btsid=a786ecad-a3d2-49d4-8eae-cc56c90e958d


----------



## StandardBattery (Nov 13, 2016)

tigfur said:


> How do you recognize a fake battery? All i have is a cheap multimeter, i wonder if these can be real for the price
> https://www.aliexpress.com/item/2PC..._1&btsid=a786ecad-a3d2-49d4-8eae-cc56c90e958d


where are you located, just buy them from reputable dealer. the price there is good but only a little better than many other sources. these typically are available between $5-6US. Shipping might be different though, but buing within the us is more reliable delivery with Li batteries.


----------



## kreisl (Nov 13, 2016)

Looks like they have "Panasonic-like" wrappers now!

And looks like they are made in China now!!

Ref: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UdJzkr7MeT4&t=1m6s


----------



## stephenk (Nov 13, 2016)

GAs can be made in Japan, China, and Poland. Only the former has the plain red wrapping.


----------



## kreisl (Nov 13, 2016)

panasonic eneloop can be made in the japan and in the china also.

they look the same.

but they are not identical in performance or quality as you know


----------



## stephenk (Nov 13, 2016)

kreisl said:


> panasonic eneloop can be made in the japan and in the china also.
> 
> they look the same.
> 
> but they are not identical in performance or quality as you know


Yes, it would be interesting to how the different GAs compare. I've read that the Chinese GAs have slightly more capacity. I would hope that the differences are not as significant as the Eneloops, which are made by two different companies.


----------



## tigfur (Nov 14, 2016)

im not from the US so i prefer ordering here, and this is the cheapest i could find them. From what you say it seems that its okay to buy? i heard about the eneloops but since they dont state where they are made online and they are hard to find in retail here i dont really have a choice with them


----------



## StandardBattery (Nov 14, 2016)

tigfur said:


> im not from the US so i prefer ordering here, and this is the cheapest i could find them. From what you say it seems that its okay to buy? i heard about the eneloops but since they dont state where they are made online and they are hard to find in retail here i dont really have a choice with them


I think you are good to go, if they want to sell you something fake, you can't often go by the pictures anyway you have to wait until they are in your hands. They might have an extra wrapper on them, but when you get them there is the matrix code printed and two different manufacturing codes and the model number all lightly engraved in the wrapper, often even if there is an extra wrapper you can see through it to the other one. Let us know how it works out.


----------



## Lexel (Nov 15, 2016)

On gearbest they were sold for 4.5$ but out of stock

I bought many 4-5$ cells even some with pcb and they are all no fakes


----------



## tigfur (Nov 17, 2016)

So i ordered them and the order got cancelled, money is gone and aliexpress asks me for a ridiculously suspicious amount of information (photo of id and bank card). Ive had around 40 orders on aliexpress in the past two years and this is the first time something like that has happened so i blame the seller.


----------



## StandardBattery (Nov 17, 2016)

tigfur said:


> So i ordered them and the order got cancelled, money is gone and aliexpress asks me for a ridiculously suspicious amount of information (photo of id and bank card). Ive had around 40 orders on aliexpress in the past two years and this is the first time something like that has happened so i blame the seller.


Something does not sound right, AliExpress is asking you for that... are you sure it's not a phishing request? The seller cancelled the order or AliExpress? I don't use that service so I don't know if they use paypal or not.


----------



## tigfur (Nov 18, 2016)

StandardBattery said:


> Something does not sound right, AliExpress is asking you for that... are you sure it's not a phishing request? The seller cancelled the order or AliExpress? I don't use that service so I don't know if they use paypal or not.


Aliexpress doesnt use paypal. I looked it up and many people got the same, its some kind of protection against unauthorized card usage. Ill see what i can do.


----------



## tigfur (Nov 18, 2016)

StandardBattery said:


> Something does not sound right, AliExpress is asking you for that... are you sure it's not a phishing request? The seller cancelled the order or AliExpress? I don't use that service so I don't know if they use paypal or not.


Aliexpress doesnt use paypal. I looked it up and many people got the same, its some kind of protection against unauthorized card usage. Ill see what i can do.


----------



## gyzmo2002 (Nov 18, 2016)

I have many buy from AliExpress. I buy all my batteries there because I live in Canada and no duties compared to USA.There was only 1 order cancelled by AE because of the seller suspicious activity. AE refunded me my money without any action from me. I have received the money around 5-6 days later.

Edit: Also the seller is paid by AE when you receive and approve your order.

I made a complaint about 1 order until now. It was for led lights. They was supposed to be 30w but they were 7W. They asked me to prove my point on a video. After some messages exchange (logged by AE), I won an AE refunded me my 5 lights because the description was false and I didn't have to return them back. That was what I asked...full refund without returning my order if the seller didn't want to pay for it even if he wanted me to pay for it to refund me.


----------



## tigfur (Nov 18, 2016)

gyzmo2002 said:


> I have many buy from AliExpress. I buy all my batteries there because I live in Canada and no duties compared to USA.There was only 1 order cancelled by AE because of the seller suspicious activity. AE refunded me my money without any action from me. I have received the money around 5-6 days later.
> 
> Edit: Also the seller is paid by AE when you receive and approve your order.
> 
> I made a complaint about 1 order until now. It was for led lights. They was supposed to be 30w but they were 7W. They asked me to prove my point on a video. After some messages exchange (logged by AE), I won an AE refunded me my 5 lights because the description was false and I didn't have to return them back. That was what I asked...full refund without returning my order if the seller didn't want to pay for it even if he wanted me to pay for it to refund me.



I have made many purchases and many refunds and never had any problems, so i hope this one will be solved soon too, but i might have to find a different place to buy these batteries for the same price


----------



## gyzmo2002 (Nov 19, 2016)

tigfur said:


> I have made many purchases and many refunds and never had any problems, so i hope this one will be solved soon too, but i might have to find a different place to buy these batteries for the same price



Gearbest have good prices for ncr18650 GA. I bought 8 one time for 32.00 BEFORE the high shipping cost for batteries. Now I continue with AE with free shipping.


----------



## tigfur (Dec 12, 2016)

I found a good deal for batteries on gearbest now.

That said, i have just received the ones i ordered on AE.





They came in a cool box, in small firm cardbox.




They seem to be rewrapped with a warning label or so. Havent put them in the flashlight yet to see how tight it is.




They are charging now, came with the voltage in the picture which is around what all my other 18650s were like.





Length is close to 65mm so they should be hopefully real.


----------



## markr6 (Dec 12, 2016)

I think I saw these red batteries on a goinggear video. I thought maybe it was just the camera, but seems like they are now actually red with writing instead of the older plain pinkish-red wrappers.


----------



## HKJ (Dec 12, 2016)

markr6 said:


> I think I saw these red batteries on a goinggear video. I thought maybe it was just the camera, but seems like they are now actually red with writing instead of the older plain pinkish-red wrappers.



I would say red without writing* at least the ones I tested.

*There is some text in the plastic, but it is very difficult to see.


----------



## tigfur (Dec 12, 2016)

HKJ said:


> I would say red without writing* at least the ones I tested.
> 
> *There is some text in the plastic, but it is very difficult to see.



There was some kind of logo in your pictures, a square of some kind, i can see the square vaguely on this battery too (see the third picture) is a QR code of some kind. Its either very softly printed, vanished or covered by a second layer. I will know more once i try showing it inside my flashlight where double layered 18650 dont fit

There however are no numbers on the minus pole like your picture shows


----------



## markr6 (Dec 12, 2016)

Sorry I was referring to tigfur's photos above. They have all the writing like Panasonics (NCR18650A, B etc.) This is the first time I've seen this on the GAs.


----------



## tigfur (Dec 12, 2016)

markr6 said:


> Sorry I was referring to tigfur's photos above. They have all the writing like Panasonics (NCR18650A, B etc.) This is the first time I've seen this on the GAs.



Me too, this looks just like the NCR18650B that i have laying right next to it now. The only difference is that the B has "made in japan" and GA "made in china"

Charging took 3:56 on 1A with the thrunite charger sometimes lowering amps to around 700mA this seems a realistic time, though charging doesnt really prove anything. It fits easier in my flashlight than the Olight 3400mAh battery so that doesnt suggest rewrapping. My BLF A6 is slightly brighter and much hotter with this one compared to the olight. Again suggesting its the real deal. I like it, theres a good deal on Gearbest on these, i might buy another two.


----------



## lumen aeternum (Jan 1, 2017)

What do the letters PTC stand for?

Is NCR18650GA a unique identifier, to use in a search box?

Or do I have to say Sanyo/Panasonic as well?


----------



## HKJ (Jan 1, 2017)

lumen aeternum said:


> What do the letters PTC stand for?



PTC stands for Positive Temperature Coefficient and is used in connection with a special type resistor that can work as a automatic fuse.



lumen aeternum said:


> Is NCR18650GA a unique identifier, to use in a search box?
> 
> Or do I have to say Sanyo/Panasonic as well?



I do not know of other cells with that name.


----------



## tigfur (Jan 2, 2017)

lumen aeternum said:


> What do the letters PTC stand for?
> 
> Is NCR18650GA a unique identifier, to use in a search box?
> 
> Or do I have to say Sanyo/Panasonic as well?



as little as 18650 GA can identify this battery, at some shops there are spaces in between the names (ncr 18650 ga) and so they wont find ncr18650ga as a single word, but thats just a little detail. trying "sanyo 3500" is a good way to find it too


----------



## INFRNL (Jan 4, 2017)

lumen aeternum said:


> What do the letters PTC stand for?
> 
> Is NCR18650GA a unique identifier, to use in a search box?
> 
> Or do I have to say Sanyo/Panasonic as well?



where are you located, in/out of the US? best price I've found in the US is @illumn, 5.99ea. There could be slightly better prices, but this is good for me. I spent 7ea from ZL when I ordered a light, thought it was a good deal, could have saved $1/battery if I searched more. will probably order anoth 4 when I place an order for a charger @illumn.

Hope this helps, although you may have already placed an order somehwere

EDIT: just went to look, wanted to see if they said Japan or China and realized they are on back order, bummer.


----------



## Dr. Mario (Jan 10, 2017)

Got my first Sanyo / Panasonic 18650 cells in years, and NCR18650GA cells from Mountain Electronics are quite nice batteries to have and use. I use them in my DIY flashlights, including the blacklight Convoy S2 flashlight containing the Nichia NVSU233A-U365 LED, so I get the runtime I need. LG INR18650MJ1 works fine in my application too as 2 hours of runtime is a minimum necessary. I plan to buy some more.

As far as safety goes, I wonder if it has the same ceramic mat separator as the Panasonic counterpart.


----------



## tigfur (Jun 5, 2017)

Hey guys, anyone already seen the "new" liitokala battery? 
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/2PC...lgo_pvid=4a480fa1-e6b1-4208-83c0-24d80ab1331a

Theres supposed to be a NCR18650GA inside, should i trust it? Anyone tried?


----------

