# To LEO's, how much light do you really need?



## BeeMan458 (Apr 13, 2010)

I'm curious as to a "realistic" answer to this most subjective of questions.

My arsenal is stocked with JetBeam products. Overall, I'm very, very happy. For EDC, the RRT-0 and the Jet-III M. For throw and flood, the JetBeam M1X and an on order, RRT-3. To all you LEO's out there, do you need more than the above while on patrol? How much light do you LEO's need, at the ready, so as to take the night away from the bad guys and keep ya'll safe?

Oh, and while I'm asking, which is your patrol preference: cool or warm tint as to the Jet-III M?


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## dano (Apr 13, 2010)

BeeMan458 said:


> I'm curious as to a "realistic" answer to this most subjective of questions.
> 
> My arsenal is stocked with JetBeam products. Overall, I'm very, very happy. For EDC, the RRT-0 and the Jet-III M. For throw and flood, the JetBeam M1X and an on order, RRT-3. To all you LEO's out there, do you need more than the above while on patrol? How much light do you LEO's need, at the ready, so as to take the night away from the bad guys and keep ya'll safe?
> 
> Oh, and while I'm asking, which is your patrol preference: cool or warm tint as to the Jet-III M?



Every LEO is different, with different needs.

I'm perfectly satisfied with my Streamlight SL20x and a (currently) G2Z running a P61 lamp. No LED's on duty for me, as I have had too many in-field failures with them.


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## Mr Bigglow (Apr 13, 2010)

dano said:


> Every LEO is different, with different needs.
> 
> snip . No LED's on duty for me, as I have had too many in-field failures with them.


 
Clearly different, because I went to LEDs for their dependability. But I invested in a certain famous US brand of flashlights, so....


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## BeeMan458 (Apr 13, 2010)

At 850, out the front lumens, would either of you two say that the JetBeam RRT-3 will be putting out enough light to steal the night away from the bad guys when searching a field or back alley way? Is 850 OTF lumens really enough light when doing search and rescue next to a river on a stormy, rain filled night, or do you need more?


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## Mr Bigglow (Apr 13, 2010)

Having started out in the days when alkaline batteries were radical innovations, meaning with flash units probably putting out 10 lumens, I've always been happy with anything over, say, 60 true lumens. Currently my newish E2DL emits around 200, they say. So 850 would be an awesome increase over anything I've ever NEEDED- but OTOH I can't speak to river rescue issues.


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## Swedpat (Apr 13, 2010)

Without success I have during months tried to sell my unused in the box Fenix TK10 to some police officer at the local police station. I spoked to several of them but they are satisfied with their Ledlenser 3AAA they received by the police authority...


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## BeeMan458 (Apr 13, 2010)

_I can't speak to river rescue issues.
_
I know that in vacillating, rain drenched, river environment based distances, where one might be conflicting with other lights, nature sucks up light fast at the shadow boundry.

So far what I've come up with is, 850 OTH lumens, under ideal conditions, should be good for shadow filling light at 400'. When the JetBeam RRT-3 comes in, and the next stormy night occurs, I guess it's down to the river to get my feet wet to find out what's what. I'm going guess that the effective distance is reduced to 200' - 300' due to the weather related conditions sucking up some of the light.

:thumbsup:

Swedpat wrote:

_I spoked to several of them but they are satisfied with their Ledlenser 3AAA they received by the police authority...
_
I have to agree with your above frown.



How far do you guys really need to be able to see at night so as to be safe from the bad guys who are hiding in the shadows?


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## Alberta-Blue (Apr 13, 2010)

I use a three light system (Surefire recently started marketing it as the "Tactical Trinity" but the principal is the same) Basically I always have 3 lights available to me at any given time.

I ALWAYS have a Belt primary and a pocket back-up, and, depending on the duty and armament, I will either have a weaponlight or a fullsize on my rig or within arms reach.

The idea is that you have a light immidiately available for virtually any circumstance you encounter without fumbling around, that you should have enough light available (at full output) to use constantly for approximately 50% of your shift (in my case 4 hours... I have power available for 6), and that you have multiple redundancies if any one (or two) lights fail on you. This seriously limits that chances that you will ever be caught in the dark in the middle of a bad situation.

It works too... not long ago we had a power failure at work, and guess what; I was the ONLY officer in my work area that actually had a flashlight (that wasnt an original [email protected]). So I passed my backup's out and we continued to work until power was restored.

Currently my lights are as follows:
Belt Primary (but needs to earn its trust): Newly purchased Surefire AZ2
Pocket Back-up: Surefire A2L
Weaponlight: Surefire X300
Full-size (ish): Surefire M6 (Rechargable modification)


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## BeeMan458 (Apr 13, 2010)

Thanks for the reply Alberta-Blue. Looks like I'm on the right track.

How much do you feel you need in lumens when looking for the bad guys in the rough or doing river search and rescue at a two or three hundred yard distance?



I can only put the package together as it's you guys who do the actual work.

:thumbsup:


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## Alberta-Blue (Apr 13, 2010)

Well my M6 Rechargable has a Low Output Lamp Assembly option for general use and I can swap it out for the Lumens Factory HO-M6R which will give me a solid 400-450 lumens out-the-front (OTF or Torch Lumens) and with one hell of a throw for about 35 to 45 minutes. I find its enough to use effectively for a spotter.

However that being said the M6 is relatively old tech that is being adapted and modded by people to extend its life and usefullness. Personally I am waiting for the Surefire M3LT to be released so I can size it up as my M6`s successor.

The M3LT is alleged to have around 400 OTF lumens focused in a TIR lens for one hell of a throw monster. Its also powered by 3 CR123A`s so it saves cost over the M6 and has the same output.


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## BeeMan458 (Apr 13, 2010)

Thanks again.

:thumbsup:

Sounds like the threesome being putting together will work out just dandy.

JetBeam RRT-0 for the pocket.

JetBeam Jet-III M for the belt.

JetBeam RRT-3 for the spotter.

This, of course, coupled with Pila charger, two sets of 18650's and a fresh box of Surefire CR123A's.


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## Paul_in_Maryland (Apr 13, 2010)

I'm reminded of the exchange between the chocolate maker and her peasant customer in Chocolat:

Chocolat maker: "How many [of my aphrodisiac chocolates] do you need?"
customer: "How many do you have?"


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## Hogokansatsukan (Apr 13, 2010)

Not sure if it's how much or what type. I keep a Milky Room Sweeper on me for clearing houses, and it works great for that and any close encounter, but even though it kicks out 650 plus lumens, it's pure flood. Great for close up, but certainly lacking at distance. About a month ago I had to clear a large property within the city limits. It reminded me of Sanford and Son. The Room Sweaper worked great, as there was no distance over 40 feet that one could see anyway. I find floody lights better. Just last thursday I was using it and was able to see a person hiding in a room out of the corner of my eye. Had I had a tight beemed light, it might have taken me longer to spot him. Well, the part of him sticking out anyway.
If I were with the Sheriffs Department, I would go for more throw as they are working more in the desert rather than the city.
As far as lumens go, the more the better, but to each his own. It does come down to personal taste and experience.


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## [email protected] (Apr 13, 2010)

Paul_in_Maryland said:


> I'm reminded of the exchange between the chocolate maker and her peasant customer in Chocolat:
> 
> Chocolat maker: "How many [of my aphrodisiac chocolates] do you need?"
> customer: "How many do you have?"



*+1* :thumbsup:

Whilst more is generally better (there are obvious exceptions), providing you already carry a decent low-to-midrange light for up close work why would you not want/need an exceptionally high output light? :thinking:


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## BeeMan458 (Apr 13, 2010)

_If I were with the Sheriffs Department, I would go for more throw as they are working more in the desert rather than the city._

Flood vs throw?

:thinking:

Our son will be working the southern Oregon area along Hwy 5. There's a lot of open space but he'll also be working the city beat.

Flood Vs throw?

:thinking:

The RRT-3 is expected to arrive any day now for testing purposes. The RRT-3 has 850 lumens OTF and some six different power settings, not counting strobe and standby. I expect it to be more of a thrower than flood. I'm trying to limit this odyssey to three lights as I could easily go from three to five in a heartbeat.



With all the choices out there today, how much light is enough? Do you guys need a FireSword IV while out in the field and then when does the light itself become too unwieldy or simply a PITA to use? FWIW, personally, I find the JetBeam M1X to come up short after a hundred feet or so. Maybe I need a darker venue.



"Hey rookie, why are your pants dragging like that?"

"Dad got me five lights for graduation and I didn't want to seem unappreciative."

:naughty:


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## Bullet120 (Apr 13, 2010)

For 12 years I have lived by my Stinger. I switched departments about 3 years ago and they issue UltraStingers. At my previous dept, we had two SL-20s assigned to the car. I rarely took those out. At this dept, I have become accustomed to using the UltraStinger on a full time basis. Its manners are good. Long enough to tuck under the arm, decent throw and good flood for a car stop.

With that being said, I just upgraded both of these lights with Terralux drop ins. The Stinger is like a new light and outshines the new DS C4 polystingers. The Ultra has a decent throw, but the spill makes it terrible for car stops and I don't believe the color suits well for throw/searching.

So, I've been in the search for high quality LED's. I received an LED Lenser X21 last week. While I certainly can justify the cost and make use of the available light, I will be returning it. I have decided that other regulated lights are what I'm after. However, having that much light available has strengthened my desire to buy real, high quality lights.

In the flood mode, I was able to light up entire back yards during noise disturbance/party calls. Certainly adds to your security when fewer people are hiding in the shadows. On the throw mode, I was certainly able to see further/bigger/better than anything before. I believe a light with this much output changes the game for an LEO at night. Searches are more effective and reduce the amount of distance you may have to travel to investigate an area. If you're in the beam, there is no more hiding.

I hate to give up the versatility of the X21, but from just a short period of use, its painfully obvious the output tanks quickly. I, having little tolerance for something I perceive to be second best, have decided to try an Olight SR90 and Fenix TK30 combo. I plan to use the diffusing film trick shown in other threads to make the TK30 a brilliant flood. I envision the TK30 becoming my regular patrol light, while keeping my Stinger on my belt for trusty back-up, where its been for 12 years. The SR90 will come out when I get out to search, which in my assignment at an inner-city division, is quite often. I'll also use it from the car to to roadside searches and spot house numbers. 

It is amazing that as officers who live in the dark and are always looking for things that go bump in the night, that we don't put more emphasis in lighting. On a department with 400 officers, I cannot think of anybody carrying anything other than a light available for "free" from our clothing allowance, ie: C4 Poly/Stinger, UltraStinger/Strion/SL20 or SL35. When I whooped out my X21, people noticed. They would request I come to their call, just for the light.

I think I've rambled enough to boil it down to say I believe you need to be above 600 lumens to be at a point you can see everything around you comfortably on a typical close quarters call inside or outside (yard/street/car stop, etc.) Previously, with the above mentioned lights, you could use some spill to notice other things but needed to put the hot spot on whatever you wanted to actually see. With a true flood, this is no longer necessary. 

When going to ground searches, the sky's the limit, which is why I'm getting the SR90.


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## BeeMan458 (Apr 14, 2010)

_When going to ground searches, the sky's the limit..._

Thanks for your through and thoughtful reply. As lights come in and are tested for effectiveness, I'm fast finding the truth of your comment above. The only problem I'm having, I can't order up every possibility so as to take them out into the world and give them a test spin. That's why I ask the question, "...how much light do you really need?"

So far, my brightest test beam is about 450 OTF lumens, which is short of your minimum suggested six hundred lumen recommendation. The next light coming in will have some eight hundred and fifty OTF lumens. If that light doesn't cut it, I'll have to go to what I call the "super-thrower" category such as what you suggest, the Olight SR-90 or the FireSword IV; "Quality well spent."

I want, "at the least," a fully lit hundred yards out of the deal. So far, four hundred and fifty lumens seems to give about fifty yards in what I call "fully" lit. Fully lit to me means, being able to easily see details on a tall building's wall or roof details from a normal distance across a swimming pool courtyard of a condo/townhouse complex. I'd like to be able to see into the shadows of tall trees without conflict from ancillary light sources; one light swallowing up another's light beam. Fully lit to me means going onto a high school campus at night and being able to light (clear) the football field from any position on a stormy night. Being fully lit means, going into a trucking yard or commercial warehouse complex and light any porch or loading dock under the worst stormy nighttime lighting conditions during a blackout. For safety's sake, to me, these are reasonable expectations of one's heavy duty, duty light.

Damn military (Navy) ruined me. Because now I want to own the situation and nothing less.

:scowl:

The good news, I get to keep all the samples.


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## mn_doggie (Apr 14, 2010)

I'm surprised no one responded with how many lumens are in sunlight? :shrug:


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## Jeffa (Apr 14, 2010)

Black Hawk Gladius on my duty belt, easy to use one handed. I like the Gladius because I can rotate it to the first selection which for me is the lowest light setting and go hands free placing it in my teeth and working with two hands undetected. The third setting (fully clockwise) is intermitant which I use for tactical/building searches. The middle setting is strobe which I have only used in training or signaling during field searches for missing persons.

Streamlight TLR-1 bright and long lasting, no problems to date

Olight M-30 Triton small enough to carry in a cargo pocket with spare rechargeable batteries.

Polarion PH40 when a lot of light is needed.

Surefire L4 Lumamax for off duty. Small with just the right amount of light.

Fenix TA-30 at home next to the bed (just because)

I worked for many years in the AZ desert and now work in snowy, cold northern Minnesota. A warmer tint is more important to me in the snow or when near or on the water.

None of my lights have a warm tint right now but I will try to remedy that in the near future.


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## BeeMan458 (Apr 14, 2010)

Polarion PH40

:mecry:

Wow!

Jeffa, thanks for the response. What I'm trying to find out is, how much light do you LEO's find that you actually need in the field as opposed to different lights used. That Polarion looks like it would be some light to have in the field. Is it worth the price when compared to other HID's?



So far, I'm good with the everyday pocket carry and the utility belt choice, but I'm in question at to a flood/thrower for field use when looking for the bad guys in fields, schools, commercial complexes or doing search and rescue on a dark stormy night.

"Somebody want to get some light over here!"

:thumbsup:


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## Bullet120 (Apr 14, 2010)

BeeMan458 said:


> _When going to ground searches, the sky's the limit..._ That's why I ask the question, "...how much light do you really need?"



Since that is the question asked, maybe I can give better feedback. I think you're right on track with your fully lit at 100 yard goal. More is nice (of course), but this is a solid goal. Now, how many lumens does it take to get there? Well, I suppose that depends on you and your light design. A DEFT can do it easily, but I need to see more than someone's nose. I'd like to see a 20 ft hotspot at that distance. But then, what does that do for me up close?


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## Brigadier (Apr 15, 2010)

BeeMan458 said:


> FWIW, personally, I find the JetBeam M1X to come up short after a hundred feet or so.


 


Seriously? Wow...


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## Brigadier (Apr 15, 2010)

BeeMan458 said:


> _When going to ground searches, the sky's the limit..._
> 
> Thanks for your through and thoughtful reply. As lights come in and are tested for effectiveness, I'm fast finding the truth of your comment above. The only problem I'm having, I can't order up every possibility so as to take them out into the world and give them a test spin. That's why I ask the question, "...how much light do you really need?"
> 
> ...


 
IMHO, from reading your post, especially with regards to seeing/not seeing details, maybe you need to look at an incan instead of more LED lumens. For the price of an SR-90, you could get a SureFire M3T and a few different bulbs to try out. Heck, I would recommend an M6, and run an MN15 bulb: see here: https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/142517

I would also recommend an LF Seraph SP-9 with a D36 TH and an SR-9L or HO-9L on 2X18500's. 

It is my experience that with LESS light output, details like you are describing are easier to see with an incan than even an M1X. I own the M1X, SF M3, and the SP-9 outfitted like I described. Even though the M1X puts out morer OTF lumens than the M3 or SP-9, I find outdoors the incans show up details much better.

YMMV.


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## Roger999 (Apr 15, 2010)

mn_doggie said:


> I'm surprised no one responded with how many lumens are in sunlight? :shrug:


10^40? since lumens are a measure of total output and the sun has a crazy flood........we should get a new reflector for the sun.


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## Dennis (Apr 15, 2010)

Wow, sounds like you are spec'ing out search and rescue lights and not your typical patrol duty light. Of course, everything comes down to the intended mission so every cop is gonna be different, even on the same Department depending on assignment, even by personal preference as to how they accomplish their goals. Too much light can be a hindrance inside, as can too little light outside. Too complicated of a light can be a problem if the officer doesn't train with it. You could give an Olight M30 to every cop on a Dept. and I bet at least a third of them would get it stuck in low mode and happily, ignorantly, keep it there. Others may find high mode but blind themselves inside and stop using it altogether.

So basically my answer to your question is you need a light that works for YOU however you want to use it. Lumens are secondary beyond a certain minimal threshold of maybe 60.

Dennis.

- Olight M30 Primary Duty
- SF A2L on belt for backup/sneaky light
- SF X300 on G17
- Malkoff M60WL in SF Forend on Remington 870
- Quiglite on vest
- Streamlight cuff key on keychain
- Photon 2 on keychain


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## BeeMan458 (Apr 15, 2010)

_Brigadier wrote:

Seriously? Wow... _

Maybe my expectations are too high.

:thinking:
_
It is my experience that with LESS light output, details like you are describing are easier to see with an incan than even an M1X. I own the M1X, SF M3, and the SP-9 outfitted like I described. Even though the M1X puts out morer OTF lumens than the M3 or SP-9, I find outdoors the incans show up details much better._

:thumbsup:

Thanks for the reply. How far out are you getting full, into the shadow detail with your above set ups? I've gone so far as to mark up a hundred and twenty-five foot string so I can easily lay out a site for reasonably accurate distance qualifications.

Today the JetBeam RRT-2 came in and either Friday or Saturday, I expect for the RRT-3 to come in for trial purposes. FWIW, I find the RRT-2 to have a much tighter and brighter center beam than it's sibling, the Jet-III M.


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## BeeMan458 (Apr 15, 2010)

_Dennis wrote:

Wow, sounds like you are spec'ing out search and rescue lights and not your typical patrol duty light._

That's why I'm having to come to you guys cause I've never done "patrol."

For the pocket, I threw a JetBeam RRT-0 into the duty gift bag for our son. For his belt, for simplicity of UI, I threw a JetBeam Jet-III M into the bag. And for search purposes, a JetBeam RRT-3 is on it's way with it's six different power levels to cover the distance.

I find that personally, I'm very disappointed in the light output with the lesser lights (M1X on back to the smaller lights) for what I consider to be acceptable levels of light if I were on patrol and had to be out looking for bad guys on a dark and dreary night. That's why I'm asking you guys, "...how much light do you really need?" That's also why I'm setting up the measuring string so I can see how far I'm really pushing the light out to.

Thanks all for putting up with my anal nitpicking on the lighting issue. It's "very" important to me that I give our son the best possible lighting that parents can.


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## LowBat (Apr 15, 2010)

Enough to see everyone in the car you're walking up on, or enough to see that person trying to hide from you in the bushes. Basically you want throw, except for situations like building searches where flood tends to work best as you need your peripheral vision. For close up needs like writing a secondary low powered floody LED flashlight comes in very handy.


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## Brigadier (Apr 15, 2010)

I will try to get some distance measurements tonight.

I forgot to add - the Cabela's 9V XPG Xenon with their mini turbo head is surprisingly bright, focused, and the light is very very white for an incan.

The warmest high power LED I have is a 5.11 UC3.400 for around the house. On high it is rated @ 270 lumens. The incans out 'detail' it past 100 yds.

Also, you might want to consider _why_ the incan Streamlight Stinger series is so popular with LEOs......


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## 021411 (Apr 15, 2010)

I am full-time in a major metropolitan area working nights. I prefer a warm tint for color rendition. 

Belt: Surefire Z2 with Malkoff M60W MC-E. This light comes out when my gun comes out of the holster (clearing buildings/rooms) or when I need general purpose lighting. It does it's job.

Car: Streamlight SL-20X with prototype Malkoff 3X Q5. This light comes out of my car when I do traffic stops and when I make house calls. It makes a great door knocker. This is also my search light. 

Backup: (kept in my pocket) Nitecore EX10 R2

The belt and car combo has turned night into day for over 2 years and I have never encountered a problem. I try to stay away from multi-modes. On/off 1 level is all I have used. Less is more.


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## BeeMan458 (Apr 15, 2010)

The main gist of my question is distance. Maybe I've been asking the question wrong. How far do you guys need to be able to see with the lights that you're using when looking for the bad guys?

I just finished a through walk around the condo complex where I live with two JetBeam lights; a RRT-2 and a M1X. The RRT-2 was killer for walkway shrubbery and between parked cars in the parking lot. The M1X would fill in "short" distances but it seems that if it's more than a hundred and fifty feet, the shadows started winning out over the M1X and the light would only highlight the surface areas of the shrub.

:mecry:

Maybe I'm overthinking this whole flashlight thing. And then again, maybe my old man eyes suck and I shouldn't be allowed to make this type of lighting evaluation.


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## Brigadier (Apr 16, 2010)

According to Google Earth, from where I was standing to the front door of the vacant house across the street diagonally from me is 205 feet. I tested the following lights:

SureFire M3 with MN10[lowest power] bulb 3XCR123
LF Seraph SP-9 as described - HO-9L bulb 2X18500
Cabela's XPG 9V w/ TH 3XCR123
JetBeam M1X 4XCR123

The incans all seemed about equal. Very little difference. The SP-9 had the most spill.

The M1X, while brighter by far, made everything look flat and 2 dimensional. 

Now, when I lit up the trees behind the house, the LED M1X made everything look really flat. Bright, but flat. The cedars looked like blue spruces. The incans made them look their natural green.

Were I to use one of these on duty if I were LEO, I would personally run the M3, and carry a brighter bulb - like the LF HO-M3, for a dedicated search type light. If run time is the _overwhelming_ factor - the M1X gets the nod, as even the low power MN10 bulb in the M3 kills a set of batteries in 1 hr. But like I said in a previous post - if I were LEO, I'd be looking hard at an M3T or an M6.

But then again, given the shear output and generous spill of the M1X, runtime, AND the throw, it might win the job.....? But it sounds like you are discovering what I have discovered - cool white LED's suck against concrete and blacktop, IMO.

YMMV.

Good hunting.


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## BeeMan458 (Apr 16, 2010)

That sure was thoughtful of you to do the test/evaluation that you did. That was *very* kind of you.

"Yeah baby!"

I've grown very accustom to the cool white light but like you wrote, after a certain distance, although the light gets there, it doesn't get there convincingly as in it's flat or two dimensional. Not only does it not get there convincingly, but it seems to drop off a cliff as to usefulness after a certain distance. I'll check out the models that you suggested in your above post.

Thanks again for all you did.

:thumbsup:

Oh, and FWIW, the RRT-2 received from Bug Out Gear today, is definitely a keeper.


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## csa (Apr 16, 2010)

I recently had this conversation with an LEO friend. The M3T or M6 definitely won out in his book for sheer usefulness over brighter LED solutions.


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## 021411 (Apr 16, 2010)

It also comes to a point of "how in the heck do I carry all my lights?" 
I'm being serious on that part. I have so much stuff on my duty belt as is. 
Taser, 2 pairs of cuffs, radio, flashlight, large flashlight ring, Maxpedition Roly Poly pouch, plethora of keepers, baton, gun, and magazine holder. You can only fit so much stuff in your pockets as well. 
I have 2 lights on me at all times.. That's as much as I can safety carry without being cumbersome.


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## curtispdx (Apr 16, 2010)

My vote goes to an incandescent of some sort. As much as it pains me to recommend them I'd point you toward a Streamlight 20X with the upgraded lamp or the Ultrastinger. (I've had both.) Simple, simple, simple and they are available just about anywhere. 

That coupled with a Malkoff MD2 with the hi/low ring mated to a M60/M61 running primaries would be a nice setup.

OSP doesn't issue its recruits lights? (You might want to wait a bit to see what he gets issued and/or what the other troopers are using.)


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## BeeMan458 (Apr 16, 2010)

Thanks for all your input. I'll be abandoning this thread and leaving the forum and go back to lurking.

Due to everybody's input, our son will be getting what we hope will be an appropriate, well thought out and useful graduation gift when he graduates academy. Everybody's input has been helpful and appreciated towards this end.


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## HarryN (Apr 16, 2010)

Very interesting read.


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## HIDblue (Apr 16, 2010)

BeeMan458 said:


> Thanks again.
> 
> :thumbsup:
> 
> ...


 
*BeeMan, instead of the Jet-III M, I'd go with the Jet RRT-2 for the belt. Then the UI's would pretty much be uniform across the board. Consistency equals familiarity. And your kid won't get confused switching from one UI to a different UI between the Jet-III M and the RRT series lights. Just my 2 cents though. Congrats to your kid.*


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## BeeMan458 (Apr 17, 2010)

Thanks!

And I don't mind ordering up another RRT-2. Besides, I get to keep all "samples."


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## Solscud007 (Apr 18, 2010)

Alberta-Blue said:


> Well my M6 Rechargable has a Low Output Lamp Assembly option for general use and I can swap it out for the Lumens Factory HO-M6R which will give me a solid 400-450 lumens out-the-front (OTF or Torch Lumens) and with one hell of a throw for about 35 to 45 minutes. I find its enough to use effectively for a spotter.
> 
> However that being said the M6 is relatively old tech that is being adapted and modded by people to extend its life and usefullness. Personally I am waiting for the Surefire M3LT to be released so I can size it up as my M6`s successor.
> 
> The M3LT is alleged to have around 400 OTF lumens focused in a TIR lens for one hell of a throw monster. Its also powered by 3 CR123A`s so it saves cost over the M6 and has the same output.




Have you looked at the Lumens Factory Seraph P7? It is a turbo head for the M6. However you can run it on a M3 body on 3 primaries. It puts out 850 lumens. I got a guy here switched over. He is a LEO in Socal. i showed it to him in person and he was hooked. I would highly recommend it. It is only like $100 and a great upgrade. Mine runs on two 18650s. Or it can run on the 6x primary MB20.


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## SoCalDep (Apr 19, 2010)

It's 0400hrs and I just got home from work. I have a Surefire X200 on my pistol, an SL20X in the car, a Fenix TK20 on my belt and a Quark AA Tactical in my pocket.

No matter how many lumens a light puts out....It'll scatter the "bad guys" like cockroaches. If you wanna find 'em...You find 'em in the dark.


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## CDP930 (Apr 19, 2010)

SoCalDep said:


> It's 0400hrs and I just got home from work. I have a Surefire X200 on my pistol, an SL20X in the car, a Fenix TK20 on my belt and a Quark AA Tactical in my pocket.
> 
> No matter how many lumens a light puts out....It'll scatter the "bad guys" like cockroaches. If you wanna find 'em...You find 'em in the dark.


 
What holster are you carrying the TK20 with?


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## BeeMan458 (Apr 19, 2010)

_It'll scatter the "bad guys" like cockroaches. If you wanna find 'em...You find 'em in the dark._


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## SoCalDep (Apr 19, 2010)

CDP930 said:


> What holster are you carrying the TK20 with?


I've been using my ASP baton holder since I've been carrying the ASP in my sap pocket. I used to carry the TK20 in my sap pocket with the clip or the factory nylon holster on my belt...The seat wore a hole in the factory holster and I decided Io'd rather have the light on my belt over the ASP.


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## UNM1136 (May 12, 2010)

Guess I gotta be the dissenting voice.

I think it is easier, in my environment to get too many lumens than not enough. Mostly Urban, with some street lighting in some places, and not in others like many of your jurisdictions. I have found Surefire 6Rs to be adequate at 50 Lumens (just barely) and have used a 8AX for the last several years at 110 lumens. I probably do more building searches in a shift than many of you guys (canine handlers excepted) because I have keys to almost 98% of the alarmed buildings in my primary jurisdiction. So almost ALL alarm responses get a full blown building search.

If you look at the beamshots in the reviews, you may see that the center of the hot spot gets whited out as you up the light. This is too much light for the situation. When you start to lose the ability to focus on what is in the dead center of the light, the light may be doing you more harm than good by concealing what you want to see. Also, if you "accidentally" blind drivers during traffic stops, like I do, too much light will lead to problems when the driver gets their retinas fried by too many (by my guess, above 150) lumens. 

When my late AX died this last week, I had to do some looking. I settled on an adjustable LED with a medium setting rated at 110 Lumens (emitter, I hope to get about 90 OTF). I intend to carry the light in that mode, with the high setting (probably 230 ish out the front) held in reserve for when I need the extra light. 

That said, I carry a mix of lights. In order of usefulness: 8AX (until this week) as an always there backup light, soon to be replaced by an LED Olight M20 R5. Streamlight SL20, as a primary light, but even as a primary light it gets used about half the time the belt light does. Surefire X200A on the .45. Surefire 6P with P61 lamp in shock isolated bezel on the AR. Surefire A2, which is my off duty light, but is held in reserve "just in case". I have a mix of LEDs and incandescent, and am very happy. 

These work for me, based on my experience. 

pat


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## pilote (May 12, 2010)

my brother the Fed has been using his 6P a long time and perfectly happy with it...i gave him a m60L to put in there and he's more impressed with the runtime rather than higher lumen output...


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## utlgoa (May 12, 2010)

Nothing lights up the interior of a motor vehicle during night time traffic stops than the Elektrolumen Triple Cree MCE Modified C-Cell Flashlight. It has over 2000 Lumen. I would only use the light when acting as "backup". It's to bright to shine directly at the driver.


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## TMedina (May 12, 2010)

curtispdx said:


> OSP doesn't issue its recruits lights? (You might want to wait a bit to see what he gets issued and/or what the other troopers are using.)



This is what I'm concerned about, although belatedly, judging by the post dates.

Some jurisdictions mandate the parameters of what officers can and cannot carry - I hope the present was well received and useful.

Good luck to him and you - being family of a cop is almost as hard as being a cop. 

-Trevor


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## uknewbie (May 12, 2010)

M1X with TK11 R2 as backup now.

There are very few situations I think where the M1X would not be good enough. Great throw, spill, runtime, reliable with strobe if you want it. I have found this very very good on nights. Blows away most others and all the standard junk that forces in the UK seem to issue is not worth carrying.

I don't think colour rendition is a problem, and even if it were, it doesn't matter to me on duty, I am more concerned with seeing if there is someone there or not.


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## ResQTech (May 12, 2010)

The EagleTac T100C2 MKII is becoming increasingly popular among the LEOs I work with. I personally carry a TK10 but the T100C2 is definitely more affordable. The Jetbeam M1X is a good choice in the car which is a nice, cheaper alternative to the SF M3T that I've always had a lot of respect for but just couldn't justify putting up the money to purchase one.

Is it common practice for the dept to pay for the larger streamlights, but not the duty belt lights?


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## SoCalDep (Jun 3, 2010)

My dept pays for a cheapo $1.99 D cell light they don't expect anyone to actually use. 

I picked up an Eagletac P20A2 MKII a little while back and have been carrying it daily for over a month now. I use it with eneloop rechargeables and have yet to switch the original set out. Of course, I only used it for a week on nights then I switched back to day shift and haven't used it nearly as much. I have, however, been totally satisfied with the run time on the eneloops.

I agree with the above post that lumen overkill can be a hindrance to effective room clearing. I like my TK20, but thought that the throw might be a bit much, too "hot" a spot. I ordered the P20A2 with the OP reflector and WOW! It's a perfect even beam with a larger hotspot that's bright but not too bright...and good spill. I like the easy access to three brightness modes and that the strobe/etc. is hidden. 

I now carry my Eagletac in the sap pocket, my Streamlight Microstream in my shirt pocket, and the SL20X comes out when I can carry a flashlight but can't carry a baton or sap. I'm thinking really hard about the new multi-mode high-lumen terralux upgrade for the SL20X...Might make the SL20X just that more useful.


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## nitetimeistheritetime (Jun 4, 2010)

I'm in border patrol and I'll breakdown what I use:
Mag 2-c with malkoff, I run a 2x18650 and 11 watt bulb when I feel saucy, but I'm a little turned off since it fell a few feet on it's tail and broke the filiment. Good general purpose either way. Great throw with the Mal and a monster with the incan setup. Decent runtime with either. 

Next I have a Quark 2AA tactical on my belt, I appreciate the super low when I don't want to advertise my presence, and then run high on the other head position for general needs. Easy to use and versatile.

Third is a Tiablo a-9, sometimes with the aspheric, I like to have the monster throw for checking out far away structures and for blinding at long range. 

Recently aqquired a ELEKTROLUMENS Decree, it just rides in my pocket for floody needs, puts out a wall of light. Built like a tank. Could be my only light for most needs but then I'm addicted to flash-a-hol

Also have a fulton anglehead with a 1watt led and red filter for night vision pres, and a headlight for changing tires and such. One or two nitecore's as back up as well.

Now that thats thu, I want a low-low, a useful medium for general use, ie 100 lumens, and 250-350 lumens for business time. I don't think there's a thing as too much, at least in reserve. As previous posters said, nature and weather eat up light, and out where I work, needing to signal at long distance is a factor as well.


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## JasonC8301 (Jun 4, 2010)

Surefire G3L Kit. I have since changed out the tailcap to a Z49 and the LE to a Malkoff M60. P60L just wasn't bright enough for me but lasted a long time on a set of 3 cells.

Everyone is different according to what their dept. allows them to use and where they work. So the amount of light the LEO needs depends on the situation. But having some light is better than having no light.


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## 11b30b4 (Jun 6, 2010)

I have used the stinger XT on duty for over 10 years. I like the amount of light it projects, the size it is, the available holster options, and the fact that it is rechargeable. I have no need to upgrade anytime soon; however I now carry a Smith and Wesson M&P 40 and I have a Blackhawk Xiphos mounted on it. I like the combination not necessarily the Xiphos specifically but the usefulness of having a light mounted on the weapon frees up my non-firing hand to grasp the weapon properly. I find myself pulling out my weapon and using the flashlight on it more than I use XT. Think about it, if i am going to have a need for a light (such as searching a house, that has a kicked in door) i will want to have my weapon drawn anyway. So to answer your question, this setup for me works well. 
Just my 2 cents


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## curtispdx (Jun 6, 2010)

11b30b4 said:


> I have used the stinger XT on duty for over 10 years. I like the amount of light it projects, the size it is, the available holster options, and the fact that it is rechargeable. I have no need to upgrade anytime soon; however I now carry a Smith and Wesson M&P 40 and I have a Blackhawk Xiphos mounted on it. I like the combination not necessarily the Xiphos specifically but the usefulness of having a light mounted on the weapon frees up my non-firing hand to grasp the weapon properly. I find myself pulling out my weapon and using the flashlight on it more than I use XT. Think about it, if i am going to have a need for a light (such as searching a house, that has a kicked in door) i will want to have my weapon drawn anyway. So to answer your question, this setup for me works well.
> Just my 2 cents






I remember when the weapon-mounted lights first appeared. Our training folks really didn't want to adopt them right away because, I heard, they were concerned that somebody would use them in place of a flashlight. Tell you the truth, I can see that happening. Anyway, we have them now as an option. (If anybody is wondering, I decided against it.)

You should really consider replacing the Stinger.


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## 11b30b4 (Jun 6, 2010)

Well from my range staff's perspective, they are concerned that a weapon light attached to the weapon could present some hazards in rapid drawing from the holster, but I feel training is all that is needed. As for using the weapon light as a "flash light" yes that does happen and honestly i do not see an issue with it. Where I police we are a very proactive and aggressive department. Drawing your weapon does not constitute a use of force report like in some other departments. We would be covered in paperwork. Anyway Whats wrong with the stinger? its reliable and does what I need it to do. I have looked at other lights but I just dont have a need to upgrade. But thanks for the insight.


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## was.lost.but.now.found (Jun 7, 2010)

11b30b4 said:


> As for using the weapon light as a "flash light" yes that does happen and honestly i do not see an issue with it. Where I police we are a very proactive and aggressive department.


 
 Can I simply ask what city/country you work in? I'd be putting myself on the evening news for anyone who would listen if an officer encountered me in the dark, with only his gun mounted light, pointed at me for as long as he was speaking to me. That sounds rather dangerous not to mention unprofessional.


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## curtispdx (Jun 7, 2010)

was.lost.but.now.found said:


> Can I simply ask what city/country you work in? I'd be putting myself on the evening news for anyone who would listen if an officer encountered me in the dark, with only his gun mounted light, pointed at me for as long as he was speaking to me. That sounds rather dangerous not to mention unprofessional.




This has gone off topic a bit but I don't think that's a scenario he meant. (At least I hope not.  )


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