# Ra Clicky Part 4



## HDS_Systems (May 23, 2008)

[Note: this thread is continued from the previous thead. The post below is from the first post of the thread made on May 23, 2008]


I know many of you have been waiting a long time for this announcement. Wait no longer.

This thread is to discuss the technical aspects of the upcoming Ra Clicky flashlight. A preliminary description can be viewed here. We will be expanding the information available over the next month.

Henry.


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## SaturnNyne (Oct 26, 2008)

Hurray! I love it when this thread gets rebooted mid-conversation! 



karlthev said:


> Nah, I "took the bait" and it clearly isn't worth it! Your "thoughts" always entertaining--a spot on stage for you in the future....somewhere I'm sure!


Thank you, Karl, I always enjoy your compliments too. I didn't see any "bait," but as you like...

While I have your attention, I'd just like to say that, though we tend to often hold opposing opinions, I've enjoyed and agreed with many of your recent posts. I'm sorry it's only when we are in disagreement that we actually meet on the field of conversation.




thermal guy said:


> I'm not sure why so many are having a hard time understanding why there is a time limit for the burst mode . . . The set time limit seams right to me and should perform as Henry designed it for. To give you a BURST of light when you need it to see something you cant at your normal settings.Trust me as a hunter/camper i think this is going to be a great feature.Many times when in the woods at night or early morning i have had to switch from low to high very quickly to check something out and once i have seen what it was i needed to see would go right back to my lower level.


Dan, my friend, I think the issue here is that you're looking at the implementation of burst purely as someone who will actually use it as it's intended to be used. Those who complain about it are certainly within their rights to, but I think their objection is more on principle, and perhaps a desire to give the lights a "braggable" maximum rather than an asterisked maximum. That's fine, and those are legitimate concerns for a flashaholic, but I feel, as Henry clearly does, that practical concerns outweigh them. Despite how unusual and seemingly limiting the timer appears to be (I feel that way too), I do believe it to be very well thought out from a purely practical standpoint; though practicality will, in this case, demand a trade off of some degree of flashaholic satisfaction.




luxlover said:


> This post is a great undertaking, proving to me that you take all of our comments seriously.


I take everything seriously, you must know that from our epic Tour battle, when you were the Armstrong to my Landis! 



luxlover said:


> Tell me it isn't so that Enzo will not be indulging in a Clicky?


I hear things.... I hear things. However, it looks like maybe I missed an important memo on that front. So I guess who can really say with him...




luxlover said:


> No Sir, I have spoken to nobody whose first name starts with the letter "H", to help me form my opinion about the rational for the burst mode timeout.


Ha! I was actually implying that you pilfered your explanation from me, it was so close in some points. However, a quick review of our emails did not turn up any discussion of it, so it looks like you're cleared. Is it possible that is the only aspect of the design we _didn't_ discuss?



luxlover said:


> I found the email and have looked at your calculated increase in throw with each rise in level. It just shows that an increase in output gives a slight increase in throw.


What I actually found interesting in that chart is that my Arbitrary Throw Units seem to each represent an unexpectedly substantial difference. For example: I assume, based on 100Tw beamshots/descriptions and my own output observations of my NT that my 120P would fall somewhere around the same number as the 100w (or perhaps slightly higher, since it's supposed to be brighter and one member has suggested that his Twisty was actually a little floodier; I believe a beamshot I saw may have also suggested this). That would give the 120P a rating of ~109+ATU. Compare that to the rating of the 85n at 120. A very small difference by the numbers, but I can tell you from my own comparisons that the difference in throw between the two is substantial, to the point where one is capable of "doing the job" and the other simply is not. The ATU difference between the 100w and 120w is roughly the same as the difference between the 100w and 85n, giving the impression that a step up in output is indeed quite significant in actual use (not taking into account the difference in perception that could be made by the increased backscatter from the brighter spill of the wide beam models). Now this does not make sense to me. My rough calculations are based on numbers provided by Henry and I've checked the calculations for errors, but I still wonder if something must be wrong with them, since I would not expect a one step increase to provide what the charts show. So my numbers are definitely just for intellectual entertainment for now, not something to put too much stock in.



luxlover said:


> My reference to the Rockies was a variation of the old west saying "east of the Rio Grande." Most of our international comrades wouldn't know what that means, but most would have heard of the Rockies. Am I exonerated of all guilt?


I simply meant that, contrary to a literal interpretation of your phrase, the Clicky will likely be the best light in its class on either side of the Rockies; something I'm sure you of all people would agree with.



luxlover said:


> SF has the most uncalculated all over the place output specs. I have seen. But their fine reputation is built on publishing conservative output numbers. I would much rather deal with a manufacturer like Henry, who gives us XXlm when he tells us he is giving us XXlm! I use my HDS lights as reference lights, when comparing the outputs of other lights.


I agree. SF's practice of using conservative specs is admirable compared to their competition, but it is certainly something far different from the precise and accurate ratings being discussed. The "10lm" low on my L1 appears to actually be about 15. That's great, more light for free, but it doesn't change the fact that the number given was not precise in the same sense that an HDS spec is, though there have been only a few occasions where I'd actually have preferred the lower claimed output.



luxlover said:


> Indeed, no manufacturer I know elaborates on their emitters. It is the word of mouth from each of us that informs the rest of us of their choices.


There certainly are some newer manufacturers that do specify exactly what they're using, now that there are so many choices and key differences. I think this current practice leads many newbies to the assumption that this is just how it's always been and older/larger companies must surely have always followed the same practice. But... it's just not the case.



luxlover said:


> I recently bought an HDS light with a SS lens ring and three tritium vials. Without a doubt, that solution is the best way I have found to locate my light in near total darkness. My advice is to make every attempt to deploy these vials in your HDS lights, and forget about the locator flash's intensity.


I'd like a trit, but they're really just not worth the effort and expense to me. It's very rare that I actually need a locator, so I like the idea of one I can just turn on and off. If I'm in the dark, my light is on me; if for some reason it's not, my keys probably are, and they have a light for finding lights...



luxlover said:


> Does anybody think that powernoodle's HDS light locator flash endurance test will last for 12 years, the half life of a tritium vial?


At the way it's going, I wouldn't be entirely shocked if it did!




orcinus said:


> No, but i've tried to explain why people here reacted the way they did. Because they (/we) _are_ those kinds of people


Ah, quite right. Take my comment as a clarifying addition then.


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## HDS_Systems (Oct 26, 2008)

LuxLover,

"Tactical" momentary was pure momentary - button down, light on, button up, light off. The manual is clear what would happen under such a condition - if the turn-on setting was burst, it would run for 10 seconds and then step down one level. "Tactical" momentary is very different from the other momentary that looks at how long the switch was held down to determine the difference between momentary and non-momentary.

In all of the years that feature has been available I have never come across anyone who actually used it - other than to test that the feature worked. Since we are not marketing the Ra Clicky as a tactical flashlight, we dropped that feature and fixed the other problems it caused in the UI. This results in a simpler and cleaner UI where no two feature interact. Each feature does exactly the same thing regardless of what other features have been enabled.

The locator flash is plenty bright to do a ceiling bounce once your eyes are dark adapted. In fact, I still get complaints that it is too bright. When I use it, I turn the flashlight bezel down to reduce the output light level.

Henry.


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## dtsoll (Oct 26, 2008)

Hey, um Henry, will the dealers be getting their clickys for shipment this week? Haha, it is worth a try, haha. Just kidding but if you wanna answer................ Doug


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## thermal guy (Oct 26, 2008)

HDS_Systems said:


> LuxLover,
> 
> "Tactical" momentary was pure momentary - button down, light on, button up, light off. The manual is clear what would happen under such a condition - if the turn-on setting was burst, it would run for 10 seconds and then step down one level. "Tactical" momentary is very different from the other momentary that looks at how long the switch was held down to determine the difference between momentary and non-momentary.
> 
> ...



+1 on the locator flash.When i forget to turn the light away from the bed when my G/F an i go to sleep she is always right there to remind me about it.And she ain't nice


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## luxlover (Oct 27, 2008)

thermal guy said:


> +1 on the locator flash.When i forget to turn the light away from the bed when my G/F an i go to sleep she is always right there to remind me about it.And she ain't nice


TG, if you don't want your G/F to show you to the couch, you better start doing as you are told and not forget! 

Jeff


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## luxlover (Oct 27, 2008)

HDS_Systems said:


> LuxLover,
> 
> "Tactical" momentary was pure momentary - button down, light on, button up, light off. The manual is clear what would happen under such a condition - if the turn-on setting was burst, it would run for 10 seconds and then step down one level. "Tactical" momentary is very different from the other momentary that looks at how long the switch was held down to determine the difference between momentary and non-momentary.
> 
> ...


Henry,

Good answer. So may we assume that the Clicky will have ALL the modes below, found in the "competition's" lights?
Emergency Strobe
Emergency SOS
Locator Flash
Force Setting
Automatic Button Lock
Automatic Turn-off
Simple Momentary
Disable Brightness Level Ramping and Options Menu

Recipe for keeping the peace with girlfriends and wives...._disable Locator Flash and deploy tritium vials_. 

Jeff


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## Haz (Oct 27, 2008)

I'm glad there is the locator flash added to the light. It's a very useful feature. This sounds like the best light ever to come out.


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## jimmy1970 (Oct 27, 2008)

SaturnNyne,

Do you have to quote & reply to every comment that is made on this thread?

jr/


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## toby_pra (Oct 27, 2008)

dtsoll said:


> Hey, um Henry, will the dealers be getting their clickys for shipment this week? Haha, it is worth a try, haha. Just kidding but if you wanna answer................ Doug


 


But i hope as soon as possible...

I really love my Twisty, hopefully gettin back soon :candle:


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## karlthev (Oct 27, 2008)

Quote:
"Originally Posted by karlthev 
Nah, I "took the bait" and it clearly isn't worth it! Your "thoughts" always entertaining--a spot on stage for you in the future....somewhere I'm sure!" 

Karl

"Thank you, Karl, I always enjoy your compliments too. I didn't see any "bait," but as you like...

While I have your attention, I'd just like to say that, though we tend to often hold opposing opinions, I've enjoyed and agreed with many of your recent posts. I'm sorry it's only when we are in disagreement that we actually meet on the field of conversation."

Saturn


I'm much more of a buyer/collector/user than a technical reviewer and "idea man". My posts (generally) represent the adage that "less is more" as a direct result. In that same vein, I realize that as one size DOESN'T fit all, no one flashlight can ever hope to please everyone and so, the fewer the activities to get the light actually LIGHTING something , the better---for me! I use my computer in the same manner--as a tool and not an adventure in figuring how and why it works. Usually (I'm sure there is the possibility of an exception somewhere) more features offered to attract more customers spells a thicker instruction manual. That fact intrigues some but not me. I don't spend that much time looking at charts for automobile performance either, preferring to get in and drive. We're all different..

I guess you and I can agree to disagree on some issues/aspects (not problems) and agree on others. Fine by me.:twothumbs


Karl


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## luxlover (Oct 27, 2008)

jimmy1970 said:


> SaturnNyne,
> 
> Do you have to quote & reply to every comment that is made on this thread?
> 
> jr/


Jimmy,
I will add.....does he have to reply to an email in a manner that would choke a horse? Holy moly, the guy likes to type. However, he is the only guy I know who is well mannered enough to actually answer all questions in an email, and then elaborate on the matter. I enjoy his emails very much, and the same goes for his massive posts here. It's just about the time he writes me another one!  
Jeff


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## Dead_Nuts (Oct 27, 2008)

It's been such a very long time. Remind me again . . . what is a 'Clicky'?


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## luxlover (Oct 27, 2008)

Dead_Nuts said:


> It's been such a very long time. Remind me again . . . what is a 'Clicky'?


One question before I start....how much time do you have to devote to a full, thorough and concise explanation of a "Clicky?"  Be careful with your answer, my kind of writing makes SaturnNyne look like he is tiptoeing through the tulips!!!!     This just in.....Clickys will be "coming in October 2008."  If they do, I'm going to 

Jeff
Prolific Writer


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## luxlover (Oct 27, 2008)

Me too. Having a moderator start a new part to a thread is what makes life worth living! 

Through the years, every action taken by Henry has been a carefully thought out trade-off, most of which I have given my approval. I suppose that he can give us a 200lm light that stays cool as a cucumber, but at what cost in runtime and efficiency?. His recent "confession" that Tactical Momentary Mode will not be included in the Clicky also makes sense, since I have never seriously used it and know about it only when using it to see how it works. But it made the rest of his lights' features _null and void._ It seems that Henry's theme is "practicality", which is a good thing for the layperson.

It sounds like you have Enzo's "spirit" communicating with you!

"Pilfered" is such a negative word! :mecry: How about "borrowed without your knowledge or permission" or "adopted." Could it be that we are members of parallel universes, and that the idea came to each of us spontaneously? It is so refreshing knowing that I have been fully exonerated of a crime that I *didn't* commit.

At your request, I shall forward your throw charts to JPL and NASA, for final corroboration of your findings, which you find to be illogical based on reasonable predictions. 

Without objection, the Clicky will reign supreme "from coast to coast" and all points in between!!!

When SF posts a conservative rating for ANY light level on ANY of their lights, it can present a problem to those who really want a low level of 10lm and not 15lm. Sometimes less is more, depending on the use of the light. While 10lm is indistinguishable from 15lm, I would rather deal with Henry's level of accuracy than adopt a philosophy that more lumens is better.

I know of no other manufacturer beside Henry, who makes the claim that regardless of the emitter used it will always _meet or exceed_ all of his specifications for the light.


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## luxlover (Oct 27, 2008)

Henry,

On this page..... http://ralights.com/?id=ClickyDetails one can find the following, which I must have overlooked before I wrote post #7 in this thread...."The preset brightness settings can also be customized to emergency strobe, disorienting strobe and SOS signals. Other customizations include selecting the turn-on brightness setting, momentary operation, automatic turn-off, button lock and locator flash."

So would you tell us if *Force Setting *and *Disable Brightness Level Ramping and Options Menu* will also be included in the Clicky?

Jeff


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## Dead_Nuts (Oct 27, 2008)

luxlover said:


> One question before I start....how much time do you have to devote to a full, thorough and concise explanation of a "Clicky?"  Be careful with your answer, my kind of writing makes SaturnNyne look like he is tiptoeing through the tulips!!!!     This just in.....Clickys will be "coming in October 2008."  If they do, I'm going to
> 
> Jeff
> Prolific Writer



Uh, that's OK! It just came back to me. Thanks anyway.


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## luxlover (Oct 27, 2008)

Dead_Nuts said:


> Uh, that's OK! It just came back to me. Thanks anyway.


You had me worried there, brother! :nana:


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## SaturnNyne (Oct 27, 2008)

jimmy1970 said:


> SaturnNyne,
> Do you have to quote & reply to every comment that is made on this thread?
> jr/


Every one except this one! 

Seriously though, I do apologize to those who don't enjoy it. I'm not trying to be an annoyance, just participating in the goings on in my way. But this thread isn't about me, so let's move along...


The following mess is for Jeff:


luxlover said:


> Jimmy,
> I will add.....does he have to reply to an email in a manner that would choke a horse? Holy moly, the guy likes to type. However, he is the only guy I know who is well mannered enough to actually answer all questions in an email, and then elaborate on the matter. I enjoy his emails very much, and the same goes for his massive posts here. It's just about the time he writes me another one!
> Jeff


I get the hint, I realize I'm overdue in replying to about three of your emails...  I guess I don't like to type quite enough! But thank you, Jeff. Now let's move along...


luxlover said:


> Be careful with your answer, my kind of writing makes SaturnNyne look like he is tiptoeing through the tulips!!!!


It's true, when you get rolling, I run and hide!


luxlover said:


> I suppose that he can give us a 200lm light that stays cool as a cucumber, but at what cost in runtime and efficiency?.


High output potential goes hand in hand with runtime and efficiency, aside from the fact that efficiency drops non-linearly as we push closer to that upper potential. The compromise for brightness and coolness would be in the size: large heatsink, large power supply.


luxlover said:


> "Pilfered" is such a negative word! :mecry:


Pilfered isn't so negative, it means to take a small amount or something relatively inconsequential. My very accusation implies the lack of severity in the crime you didn't even commit. For example, "Jeff pilfered pretty pajamas" works. On the other hand, "Jeff brutally pilfered the-- wait, I'm discussing word definitions on a flashlight forum. Moving on...


luxlover said:


> I shall forward your throw charts to JPL and NASA, for final corroboration of your findings, which you find to be illogical based on reasonable predictions.


Good, Attn: Wall of Shame Dept., where my mathematics belong.


luxlover said:


> When SF posts a conservative rating for ANY light level on ANY of their lights, it can present a problem to those who really want a low level of 10lm and not 15lm. Sometimes less is more, depending on the use of the light.


I absolutely agree for my/our uses, there are certainly plenty of times when a lower output is desirable. However, I realize SF's target market will not be likely to care about such details so I try to refrain from complaining inappropriately and ungratefully about a consumer light doing its job too well, whatever my own preferences.


luxlover said:


> While 10lm is indistinguishable from 15lm...


A 50% increase is pretty distinguishable actually.

Jeff, my gentleman marathon keyboard jockey buddy, do you ever fear that we'd get a lot more of the updates we like if word-whores like us didn't make wading through this thread such a daunting task? Somewhere around the first 1000 words I usually remember that poor Henry has to come in here and spend his valuable time plodding through our nonsense (not just ours, but we're the most verbose lately) so that he can respond properly to all legitimate questions and comments, take care of business. Let's cool our personal back and forth and try to keep things a little cleaner here (or leaner, cleaner, and meaner, as you might put it) so that this thread can better get down to its business of supporting the launch of the best light on the market, which will hopefully be any time now. I want to participate in the launch, but not hinder it too much when we're so close. Of course, you're free to launch your attacks on my email privately.


luxlover said:


> Other customizations include *selecting the turn-on brightness setting*, momentary operation, automatic turn-off, button lock and locator flash."
> 
> So would you tell us if *Force Setting *and *Disable Brightness Level Ramping and Options Menu* will also be included in the Clicky?


Wouldn't "selecting the turn-on brightness setting" be force setting?


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## luxlover (Oct 27, 2008)

I bless the mess I just inherited.....
I was not hinting about my one outstanding email. I was hinting that you start a new one with the latest gossip. This is not the time to worry about breaking a nail while typing! 

When you get rolling, I Krazy Glue myself to my chair.

Ah ha! That non-linearity result of overdriving an emitter.....caper. I forgot to mention that "little stumbling block." Even with a lot of heat dissipating metal and a powerful power supply, there would still be non-linearity in an overdriven emitter's performance, but the heat would be better extracted from the emitter's slug. Just look at some of the Forward Current vs. Runtime graphs at the LED manufacturers' websites!!!

There is nothing "shameful" about your lumens vs throw effort.

I stand corrected. A 10lm to 15lm rise in output represents a 50% rise, which is usually the point where a higher output is distinguishable from a lower output.....or vice versa. Shame on me!

 I am not sure that the absence of SaturnNyne's and Luxlover's posting would have a positive effect on Henry's willingness to post more release updates. He knows how to "weed through the crap" and pick up on the meat and potatoes posts. But in the interest of determining whether this is true, let us sign a virtual pact to cease and desist our little floor show to see it either Henry shares more important information wiith us, or he ships our lights sooner!

Rest assured that I will take my viscious attacks on you to the private email sector, and continue my campaign with great ferocity!

Are you _guessing_ that  *selecting the turn-on brightness setting* is the same as *Force Setting*? If so, did a birdy tell you this?  If so, then one more mystery must be solved....will *Disable Brightness Level Ramping and Options Menu* be one of the Clicky's features!!!

Jeff


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## orcinus (Oct 27, 2008)

SaturnNyne said:


> Somewhere around the first 1000 words I usually remember that poor Henry has to come in here and spend his valuable time plodding through our nonsense (not just ours, but we're the most verbose lately) so that he can respond properly to all legitimate questions and comments, take care of business.



The font color probably helps him weed it out...  :laughing:


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## rockz4532 (Oct 27, 2008)




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## SaturnNyne (Oct 27, 2008)

luxlover said:


> Are you _guessing_ that *selecting the turn-on brightness setting* is the same as *Force Setting*? If so, did a birdy tell you this?


No birdies involved, it's just my understanding of force setting. Activating it forces the light to turn on at a selected brightness, that's how it's always been. Do you have a different understanding of it?




orcinus said:


> The font color probably helps him weed it out...  :laughing:


Ha, good call! :laughing:


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## luxlover (Oct 27, 2008)

orcinus said:


> The font color probably helps him weed it out...  :laughing:


Weed out the crap, or the good stuff. Remember, you're under oath!


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## luxlover (Oct 27, 2008)

Look at Rock eating popcorn at a time like this!


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## orcinus (Oct 27, 2008)

luxlover said:


> Weed out the crap, or the good stuff. Remember, you're under oath!



Fifth amendment! Fifth amendment!


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## luxlover (Oct 27, 2008)

SaturnNyne said:


> No birdies involved, it's just my understanding of force setting. Activating it forces the light to turn on at a selected brightness, that's how it's always been. Do you have a different understanding of it?


Now that I look at it again, I see what you mean. So Henry has changed the name to protect.....the innocent?

Don't encourage orcinus, Saturn. He has friends in low places.


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## Enzo Morocioli (Oct 27, 2008)

luxlover said:


> Don't encourage orcinus, Saturn. He has friends in low places.



You're the one who needs less encouragement, Jeff. Comin' all up in the Ra Clicky thread's grille. 

Sheesh, maybe you should use some acetone on that Krazy Glued seat of yours and get out into the streets! You ain't got no time to be lazing around stirring up pots of debauchery.


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## luxlover (Oct 27, 2008)

orcinus said:


> Fifth amendment! Fifth amendment!


Good reply. Self-incrimination is not good, especially so close to Clicky ownership time! :naughty:


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## luxlover (Oct 27, 2008)

Enzo Morocioli said:


> You're the one who needs less encouragement, Jeff. Comin' all up in the Ra Clicky thread's grille.
> 
> Sheesh, maybe you should use some acetone on that Krazy Glued seat of yours and get out into the streets! You ain't got no time to be lazing around stirring up pots of debauchery.


I am a bone fide Clicky groupie. I can't go ANYWHERE until the stork delivers my beloved Clicky.

Hopelessly Romantic Clicky Lover


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## dtsoll (Oct 27, 2008)

Haha, Jeff u kill me! Seeing as how i have my twisty I am at least able to leave the house. It's holding me over so far!! Doug


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## orcinus (Oct 27, 2008)

Jeff is afraid of leaving the house without a "light that gets him home" (SM)
Who knows where he might end up without a Clicky...


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## luxlover (Oct 27, 2008)

dtsoll said:


> Haha, Jeff u kill me! Seeing as how I have my Twisty, I am at least able to leave the house. It's holding me over so far!! Doug


I am green with envy of you. I also have a Twisty, which is the root of my problem. Every time I look at it, all I can think of is a Clicky. Both lights couldn't look more alike, like fraternal twins! I didn't have this problem when I had the good ol' EDC lights. Do you think that I need to see a shrink, and perch myself face down on the couch in shame? 

Jeff


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## luxlover (Oct 27, 2008)

orcinus said:


> Jeff is afraid of leaving the house without "the light that gets him home." (SM)
> Who knows where he might end up without a Clicky...


Hello my Croatian comrade. Thanks for checking in on me. If you look at Henry's website, you will observe that the Ra Twisty is also "the light that gets him home" (SM) But in my case, it is more like "the light that keeps him home." (SM) I have a Twisty too, but it ain't no Clicky! :mecry:

Jeff


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## luxlover (Oct 27, 2008)

I have been trying to keep this thread alive while we all wait for CR Day (Clicky Release Day). While Henry is working at putting the final touches on the Clicky and lessening our pain, I have been posting to entertain myself and all of you so that we can have some fun while waiting.

There is no reason why we have to wait for Henry to post before we get motivated enough to discuss issues about the Clicky, the Clicky Prototype and the possibility of a Clicky 17670 accessory case. Just because the technology is not in our hands should not be a reason to have this thread look like a ghost town. I am just like all of you, in that I love what Henry has done to portable lighting. I have the enthusiasm and drive of ten people, which is apparent in the number of posts I have written since I returned from my two year hiatus on Oct 22nd.

I would very much like to see more people making comments about the Clicky, asking Henry questions about the features, etc. So, could I get some company around these here parts?

Jeff


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## jimmy1970 (Oct 27, 2008)

Hey Henry, 
Get Jeff a Clicky quick, before he explodes!

jr/


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## luxlover (Oct 27, 2008)

jimmy1970 said:


> Hey Henry,
> Get Jeff a Clicky quick, before he explodes!
> 
> jr/


Very funny, Jimmy.


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## manoloco (Oct 27, 2008)

Discussing technical issues and possibilities a very entertaining way to wait, also can give fruit on having interesting ideas for improvement, i am very curious about the click system, from what i have read its an evolution of the previos electronic clickie found on the HDS EDC, as far from what i have used, the only clickies that have never missed a beat are those.

im not counting piston drives or momentary switches there, the EDC clickie sits on a comfortable middle for me, i see piston drives with the less possibility to fail, the EDC clickie has a quicker operation, but i think its a little less reliable (i can be wrong of course), and the momentary switch i like the most: surefire L1/L2/A2 tailcap, it hasnt failed me yet, but from all the parts its composed, it looks like its the most probable to fail, but I LOVE the way it operates. twisties are a whole other league, their reliability seems to be unbeatable, but the operation varies, and its never ever quick enough, so there we have interfaces for all our needs, but not a single one that can do all, life after all is full of compromises, at least in the time we have the honor to live in.

i really like to try and try and try tactile interfaces, i have the same thing for keyboards (love the cherry MX switches) and controllers for video games, for me its essential the way you can make an instrument part of your actions and reactions, needless to say i hate automatic transmissions on cars, as long as i have a manual transmission im happy.

a few people felt awkward the multi click operation system of the HDS EDC and Novatac, i find it VERY comfortable, must be because i used to play a lot of video games, that i find it very reliable and comfortable (think of fighting games combos here) however i do think in that sense the 2 stage momentary is unbeatable, for example you can use with the same motion, high or low, and its even like the other doesnt exist, those who have an L1 know what im talking about, its FAST, and its absoultely guaranteed you will be able to react accordingly even in the hardest of situations.

it would be ideal for me, that somehow the versatility of the HDS EDC or RA Clicky incarnated in its superior electronics, programming and programmability, fused with the L1 2 stage switch.

it would be close to the perfect personal pocket carry light for me, and of course i dont need to discuss the host, we know surefire and henry make bombproof bodies for their products.

i think with further research this can be done, after all, you can add this imaginary tailcap to the existing light (maybe like the McE2S), thing is its not an easy thing to do properly, and like i said i do think the L1 tailcap is less reliable and more prone to failure than Henrys clickie (i am referring to the previous one found on the EDC, the newer is highly probable even more reliable), to make a 2 stage switch that is guaranteed to not fail, would be really difficult.

As things stand, the EDC is a great light with a great UI, and the MOST versatile light i own, period. To think theres something better coming, from the same designer and engineer is of course exciting.

theres a saying that everyone knows that goes: jack of all trades master of none. its really nice to see that the HDS EDC stomped this phrase, it can do almost everything any other flashlight on that size using that power source can, and its even (arguably or not) the best in many cases, a couple of examples:

-Toughness, one of the best in this sense
-Lowest low, heck who can argue with this???, if theres a lower low than the EDC its probably of little use
-Moddability, its not recommended, but hey i could swap a SSC P4 there in the first time i opened the light, altough i have to definitely thank Tebore for his thread on modding.
-Runtime, you have to see the thread with the locator flash going on.
-Looks, this is totally subjective, but i love the looks of the EDC with a PEU SS crenulated bezel
-Excellent flood beam (this depends on your tasks)

so there you have, you have one hell of a good light to use in the meantime (most of posters here already have an HDS, im definitely aware not everyone), and you probably have an even better light to wait for, isnt that perspective comforting in a way?


----------



## luxlover (Oct 27, 2008)

manoloco said:


> Discussing technical issues and possibilities a very entertaining way to wait, also can give fruit on having interesting ideas for improvement, i am very curious about the click system, from what i have read its an evolution of the previos electronic clickie found on the HDS EDC, as far from what i have used, the only clickies that have never missed a beat are those.
> 
> im not counting piston drives or momentary switches there, the EDC clickie sits on a comfortable middle for me, i see piston drives with the less possibility to fail, the EDC clickie has a quicker operation, but i think its a little less reliable (i can be wrong of course), and the momentary switch i like the most: surefire L1/L2/A2 tailcap, it hasnt failed me yet, but from all the parts its composed, it looks like its the most probable to fail, but I LOVE the way it operates. twisties are a whole other league, their reliability seems to be unbeatable, but the operation varies, and its never ever quick enough, so there we have interfaces for all our needs, but not a single one that can do all, life after all is full of compromises, at least in the time we have the honor to live in.
> 
> ...


That's what I'm talking about! A post with some meat, potatoes and a free plug for modder tebore.


----------



## liquidsunshine (Oct 27, 2008)

Hi guys!

Both the seemingly "artificial" limitation to a certain maximum lumen output and the ten second timer for the boost mode make me pretty happy, actually!

The reason? I know from my own and others' experience that no matter how attentive and experienced you are, in many applications which this light is likely to be used in there can be situations that are intensely stressful, flooding you with adrenaline and demanding your full concentration on anything but your flashlight. I consider myself a pretty routined and capable user of my equipment, nonetheless I wouldn't guarantee that in those situations I won't make a mistake. Unfortunately, the situations in which you are most likely to make mistakes in operating your equipment are also the situations in which such mistakes can have the most severe consequences. That's why I tend to choose equipment that makes it less likely for me to make this mistake in the first place.

Unfortunately, that often means equipment that offers less options. Not so in the Clicky!

If, say, you have to use the light as your last backup light in a caving situation to get out safely, and you would switch back and forth between a low setting and a high setting to have brief glances around / ahead, it can indeed be pretty fatal if the high setting you use every few minutes for a few seconds is not, as you think, a setting that would equal a runtime of an hour, but a setting that would equal a runtime of ten minutes on a full battery. You would be in the dark *much* sooner than you think, and possibly before you are out of the cave. Mind you, caving is just an example, the same applies to many other applications.

This is one of those cases where more choice for the user would actually mean a worse product. Of course, Henry has chosen these limits, and he could have chosen other values - but I trust Henry in his judgement on this, and to me these figures make good sense.

Many manufacturers would brush such incidents off as "user error"; Henry takes on this responsibility, does something about it, and achieves that the Clicky does not only have a vast flexibility, but *despite* that also a strong capability to prevent the user from shooting themselves in the foot. Who has more integrity? In my opinion, this kind of user mistake prevention represents a new interface quality and is another step up the integrity ladder that is equal to calibrated lumen output.

Unfortunately for Henry, hardly anyone will ever realise when his forward thinking has saved their day.

Think of the limited output and the burst timer as the ESP system of your flashlight. Hardly anyone realises that ESP (electronic skid protection) in their car has just saved their life, because it doesn't visually minimise the damage like an airbag, but actually prevents the accident that otherwise would have happened. Everyone can see the open airbag and is thankful for it; who sees the ESP light coming on for a very brief moment when the system makes up for your driving mistake so quickly that you don't even notice? Yes, that is what actually happens - a whole lot, there's quite a chance that is has also happened to you already!

On an additional note, these two features are particularly valuable in situations where someone may (have to) use the light who doesn't know it as intrinsically as you may. You'll be glad your fellows were able to drag you out of the cave after you broke your leg, or whatever.

So yes, these two features may seem limiting at first glance, but they are not nearly as limiting as you would find sudden unexpected darkness in a situation where you can't afford it. Henry's approach meets his self imposed design brief spot on - they increase the capability of the light to get you home.

Just my five cents.

Cheers,

Matt


----------



## jimmy1970 (Oct 28, 2008)

I think we have a new record for longest post.... congratulations LiquidSunshine - here is your new Ra Clicky...

Sorry...
jr/:twothumbs


----------



## SaturnNyne (Oct 28, 2008)

Matt - Interesting post with a good perspective.

Jimmy - If only I'd known it was a competition....


----------



## luxlover (Oct 28, 2008)

liquidsunshine said:


> Hi guys!
> 
> Both the seemingly "artificial" limitation to a certain maximum lumen output and the ten second timer for the boost mode make me pretty happy, actually!
> 
> ...


 :welcome: Matt!
There you have it, boys and girls. Another meat and potatoes post, from a guy who probably lives on an iceberg...."south of most people." Great job. You taught ME a lesson about when I should give up some of my autonomy to those with more expertise than I. :twothumbs

Henry, if you are reading this, you have just received about the best pat on the back an engineer can earn. Don't forget him. I get the feeling in my bones that he will be back!!!

Due to the American economy recently taking a nosedive, your five cents is only worth about 1/2 a cent. Welcome to the new world.

Jeff


----------



## luxlover (Oct 28, 2008)

jimmy1970 said:


> I think we have a new record for longest post.... congratulations LiquidSunshine - here is your new Ra Clicky...
> 
> Sorry...
> jr/:twothumbs


Listen up everybody. Jimmy is giving a free Ra Clicky to every person who writes a longer post than the previous person. So let's get busy and help Jimmy get rid of his stock! :nana:


----------



## luxlover (Oct 28, 2008)

Let's keep the good vibes flowing before we get our lights, because once we do we will be too pre-occupied using them to remember this thread is what kept us interested.

Jeff


----------



## Kid9P (Oct 28, 2008)

luxlover said:


> I also have a Twisty, which is the root of my problem. Every time I look at it, all I can think of is a Clicky. Both lights couldn't look more alike, like fraternal twins! I didn't have this problem when I had the good ol' EDC lights. Do you think that I need to see a shrink, and perch myself face down on the couch in shame?
> 
> Jeff


 
Jeff,

I will ease your pain and take the twisty off your hands.
Just let me know when I can go pick it up 

Ray


----------



## Judgedog (Oct 28, 2008)

I am a longtime CPFer, but have been mainly a lurker and have not been around a lot lately. I was just getting ready to pull the trigger on a Twisty when I saw the Clicky is just around the corner.

Without getting too technical, can someone tell me if the "narrower" vs. "wider" also means that the "narrower" would tend to have more throw? Just wondering as someone had told me that the 85 Twisty has more throw than the 100 Twisty.


Thanks in advance for any assistance...heck, I may go ahead and get a Twisty while I decide which Clicky to order.


----------



## LLCoolBeans (Oct 28, 2008)

Judgedog said:


> I am a longtime CPFer, but have been mainly a lurker and have not been around a lot lately. I was just getting ready to pull the trigger on a Twisty when I saw the Clicky is just around the corner.
> 
> Without getting too technical, can someone tell me if the "narrower" vs. "wider" also means that the "narrower" would tend to have more throw? Just wondering as someone had told me that the 85 Twisty has more throw than the 100 Twisty.
> 
> ...



Yes, more throw. It has a smaller hot spot, but still has plenty of spill and a nice smooth transition between the two. The narrow beam is ideal for say walking the dogs after dark. Like I said the narrow beam still has plenty of spill so it is still very useful up close.

I love the narrow beam.


----------



## souptree (Oct 28, 2008)

I realized it's been a while since I paid any attention to this light. When I discovered that a.) it still hasn't shipped and that b.) this thread is now on part 4 (!), I was a.) not surprised and b.) glad I skipped part 3. After reading this far, I'm sorry I didn't wait for part 5! :wave: :kiss:

Are we still on track for 2008? Does anyone actually know? :nana:

I'll check back in a month or two for an answer. :laughing:


----------



## HDS_Systems (Oct 29, 2008)

LuxLover,

Selecting the turn-on brightness setting is what the Force Setting did on the EDC Ultimate. One is a marketing description while the other a feature name - for the same thing. And yes, you can turn off the customization features - and turn them back on again.

SoupTree,

We are just completing the pilot production run. If everything checks out they will ship Friday. The number in the pilot run is small, so please don't pester your dealer with "has mine shipped yet" phone calls. Volume shipments will follow shortly.

Henry.


----------



## Kid9P (Oct 29, 2008)

Holy Crap Jeff, you may get yours in time for your B-Day


----------



## toby_pra (Oct 29, 2008)

Kid9P said:


> Holy Crap Jeff, you may get yours in time for your B-Day


 
+1 :twothumbs


----------



## souptree (Oct 29, 2008)

Henry, I don't need to pester anyone. My U60XRGT still serves nightly duty and is still one of my 3 all time favorite lights. The Nope-atac that I bought for my Dad while you were still endorsing their products still serves him nightly and he loves it. Of course, he had to wait almost 2 years for it. While I don't and won't preorder anything, I am quite certain that I will buy the next light you put your endorsement on. And I am sure I will love it.... eventually. 

My admiration for you and your lights is enormous. I hope a little gentle ribbing about the delays is taken as friendly jest and nothing more. I only mock the ones I love.     :candle:


----------



## luxlover (Oct 29, 2008)

Kid9P said:


> Jeff,
> I will ease your pain and take the twisty off your hands.
> Just let me know when I can go pick it up
> 
> Ray


For a guy who is not a devout Ra Ra Ra Sis Boom Ba Twisty man, you sure are enamored with my Twisty all of a sudden.  Is this guilt, emerging due to your initial lack of enthusiasm? While I am NOT a twisty kind of guy, this is a Henry light, and either selling it/giving it to a deserved person would be like abandoning a child in it's early infancy. :naughty:

Jeff
Twisty Papa


----------



## luxlover (Oct 29, 2008)

HDS_Systems said:


> LuxLover,
> 
> Selecting the turn-on brightness setting is what the Force Setting did on the EDC Ultimate. One is a marketing description, while the other a feature name - for the same thing. And yes, you can turn off the customization features - and turn them back on again.
> 
> ...


Thank you. Force Setting was my saviour, and the customization menu lock prevents curious friends from messing up things. *

We have a winner!! * Everything that a light could possibly have, lovingly sitting in the palm of one's hand! :twothumbs

Friday seems like an eternity away!


----------



## luxlover (Oct 29, 2008)

Kid9P said:


> Holy Crap Jeff, you may get yours in time for your B-Day


Thank you, Ray and Toby. So true. But I should be given clemency and receive it before anybody else, due to my advanced age. Gee, I may not make it to my birthday!


----------



## Kid9P (Oct 29, 2008)

luxlover said:


> For a guy who is not a devout Ra Ra Ra Sis Boom Ba Twisty man, you sure are enamored with my Twisty all of a sudden.  Is this guilt, emerging due to your initial lack of enthusiasm?
> 
> Jeff
> Twisty Papa


 
No guilt at all Pops, especially with that Spy on my hip :nana:

I will still wait on reviews before I pick one or two up :naughty:


----------



## luxlover (Oct 29, 2008)

Kid9P said:


> No guilt at all Pops, especially with that Spy on my hip :nana:
> 
> I will still wait on reviews before I pick one or two up :naughty:


Attn Moderators:
Is Ray allowed to mention that _unmentionable_ light in this Clicky thread?  Isn't there some rule restricting such use? :nana:

Ray, are you speaking of the Twisty or the Clicky? Please be more pacific!

Pops


----------



## Kid9P (Oct 29, 2008)

The CLICKY


----------



## luxlover (Oct 29, 2008)

Kid9P said:


> The CLICKY


Excellent choice! I am sure that you will be exploiting me for my review of the Clicky, before you buy!!  Is that an _affirmative?_


----------



## mikes1 (Oct 29, 2008)

HDS_Systems said:


> The number in the pilot run is small, so please don't pester your dealer with "has mine shipped yet" phone calls. Volume shipments will follow shortly.
> 
> Henry.



So dose any one want to hazard a guess as to how small?
I am thinking of russtang`s lists
My fingers are crossed

Mike


----------



## LLCoolBeans (Oct 29, 2008)

Henry,

What about the prototypes?


----------



## Dead_Nuts (Oct 29, 2008)

Actual shipping Clicky's?!?

I ordered very early on but have no idea where on the list I am or how many are in the pilot. Doesn't matter. Clicky's are shipping soon!!!


----------



## SaturnNyne (Oct 29, 2008)

Ahh, good to hear we're still on the current schedule, thanks Henry. November is a wonderful month for flashlighting!

*cough*DN, hope you don't mind some friendly correction, the plural of clicky is clickies, clicky's is possessive *cough cough*


----------



## Kid9P (Oct 29, 2008)

luxlover said:


> Excellent choice! I am sure that you will be exploiting me for my review of the Clicky, before you buy!!  Is that an _affirmative?_



Hmmm, I was actually hoping Selfbuilt would be doing one of his amazing reviews on the RaClicky.


----------



## luxlover (Oct 29, 2008)

Kid9P said:


> Hmmm, I was actually hoping Selfbuilt would be doing one of his amazing reviews on the Ra Clicky.


Let it be known that I taught selfbuilt everything he knows! WHO IS SELFBUILT? :devil:


----------



## SaturnNyne (Oct 29, 2008)

luxlover said:


> Let it be known that I taught selfbuilt everything he knows! WHO IS SELFBUILT? :devil:


I think you must be thinking of Jeffbuilt?


----------



## HDS_Systems (Oct 29, 2008)

LLCoolBeans,

They are prototypes and ended up taking quite a bit more to get them going than expected. The first batch is almost complete. They may ship on Friday also.

Henry.


----------



## Dadof6 (Oct 29, 2008)

HDS_Systems said:


> LLCoolBeans,
> 
> They are prototypes and ended up taking quite a bit more to get them going than expected. The first batch is almost complete. They may ship on Friday also.
> 
> Henry.



YeeeeeeHaaaaaaaaa!


----------



## LLCoolBeans (Oct 30, 2008)

HDS_Systems said:


> LLCoolBeans,
> 
> They are prototypes and ended up taking quite a bit more to get them going than expected. The first batch is almost complete. They may ship on Friday also.
> 
> Henry.



Sweet!


----------



## toby_pra (Oct 30, 2008)

Ohhhh that would be fine, i cant wait anymore...:naughty:


----------



## orcinus (Oct 30, 2008)

Woot! 

Does anyone have any estimates on the total number of pre-orders (UT+BS)?


----------



## yotom (Oct 30, 2008)

That´s easy: It´s mine + x


----------



## LLCoolBeans (Oct 30, 2008)

Is it Friday yet?


----------



## SolarFlare (Oct 30, 2008)

yotom said:


> That´s easy: It´s mine + x



It's actually mine + yours + theirs + prototypes + x = y

Joking aside when I ordered this light back in the day, it was over $2 to the pound, exchange rates are making this purchase more uncomfortable by the day.

Hurry up if you wish to keep your international pre orders Henry.


----------



## mikes1 (Oct 31, 2008)

SolarFlare said:


> when I ordered this light back in the day, it was over $2 to the pound, exchange rates are making this purchase more uncomfortable by the day.
> 
> Hurry up if you wish to keep your international pre orders Henry.



Oh man am I happy I pre payed! That exchange rate is a killer:shakehead
Heres hoping they ship today

Mike


----------



## luxlover (Oct 31, 2008)

LLCoolBeans said:


> Is it Friday yet?


That it is!


----------



## Dead_Nuts (Oct 31, 2008)

For some of us, it may be awhile yet. But at least we'll be able to see pictures and get other's impressions. Gives us something to talk about -- finally!


----------



## orcinus (Oct 31, 2008)

Are they here yet? Are they here yet? 

...

:candle:

...

:sleepy:


----------



## gottawearshades (Oct 31, 2008)




----------



## Not_Holic (Oct 31, 2008)

October is

*o*v*e*r*.


Did Henry ship the Ra?


----------



## luxlover (Oct 31, 2008)

Not_Holic said:


> October is
> 
> *o*v*e*r*.
> 
> ...


Yes, and November starts tomorrow!


----------



## ChocolateLab33 (Oct 31, 2008)

Not_Holic said:


> October is
> 
> *o*v*e*r*.
> 
> ...


 

*My guess is NO and I hope I am wrong. *


----------



## luxlover (Oct 31, 2008)

ChocolateLab33 said:


> *My guess is NO, and I hope I am wrong. *


It's 9:48PM EST (not CPF time)....do you know where your Clickys are??? :shakehead


----------



## orcinus (Nov 1, 2008)

To the tune of "She'll be comin' 'round the mountain":

It's s'posed to come October, but it's not
It's s'posed to come October, but it's not
Oh, it's s'posed to come October, it's s'posed to come October, it's s'posed to come October,
BUT IT'S NOT!

We're all waiting for our Clickies, yes we are
We're all waiting for our Clickies, yes we are
We're all waiting for our Clickies, we're all waiting for our Clickies, we're all waiting for our Clickies,
yes we are.

Can we get a proto review, at the least
Can we get a proto review, at the least
Can we get a proto review, can we get a proto review, can we get a proto review,
at the least.

Give us photos Mr. Henry, pretty please
Give us photos Mr. Henry, pretty please
Give us photos Mr. Henry, give us photos Mr. Henry, give us photos Mr. Henry,
PRETTY PLEASE!

All together now!


----------



## luxlover (Nov 1, 2008)

orcinus said:


> To the tune of "She'll be comin' 'round the mountain":
> 
> It's s'posed to come October, but it's not
> It's s'posed to come October, but it's not
> ...


Ante,
I would love to join your choir, but I couldn't keep a note if my life depended on it. Maybe Henry wants to join you? But don't let him stay too long.....he has some lights to ship ASAP!     

Jeff


----------



## shae (Nov 1, 2008)

Hi folks, new poster here but I've been lurking for several months, long enough to wet my appetite to acquire a quality light. 

I have tried to follow this thread, but I don't recall any discussion about lockout features... I see a mention of a button lock as a customization on the Clicky product description page. I'm assuming it's similar to lockout capabilities of other HDS or NT models, but I've never owned any. Can anyone offer any insight based on their experience with similar models into how usable it is? Mainly concerned about camping type scenarios where you want to know that your light stays off when you toss it in your pack for the day.


----------



## StandardBattery (Nov 1, 2008)

Well now hasn't there been a lot of excitement and B_attery_S_tuff_ on this thread. Oh the joys of pre-order.

Great to see some good news on the thread, will the Clickies make it home? 

Stay tunned for the next episode.

_ps... who named these lights anyway?_


----------



## luxlover (Nov 1, 2008)

shae said:


> Hi folks, new poster here but I've been lurking for several months, long enough to wet my appetite to acquire a quality light.
> 
> I have tried to follow this thread, but I don't recall any discussion about lockout features... I see a mention of a button lock as a customization on the Clicky product description page. I'm assuming it's similar to lockout capabilities of other HDS or NT models, but I've never owned any. Can anyone offer any insight based on their experience with similar models into how usable it is? Mainly concerned about camping type scenarios where you want to know that your light stays off when you toss it in your pack for the day.


shae,
Welcome to CPF, in particular the wild world of Ra/HDS lights. Lurk no more. As soon as the Clicky arrives, this place will be hopping.

There are two features included in the Clicky, which were in the EDC models, named Automatic Shut-Off and Button Lock. Since Henry has not described them, something which he will do in the upcoming Customization Guide, I will describe them here as it pertains to my EDC lights. I can only assume that these will work the same way in the Clicky. I am sure that Henry will post, if I am sharing misinformation.

* Automatic Shut-Off*, when enabled from within the Options Menu, will shut off a light that is on after five minutes of runtime. To use the light again, turn it on as you usually would do. It is cyclical, and will continue until the user disables the feature from within the Options Menu. This feature prevents the user from leaving on the light indefinitely without knowing it, an act that will deplete the battery's charge prematurely. This should only be selected when the user wants the light to remain on for less than five minutes. Be aware that the user can turn off the light before the five minutes has transpired, and turn it on again to start the five minute timer from the beginning. The light will turn off after five minutes, until disabled from within the Options Menu.

* Button Lock*, called Automatic Button Lock in previous models, allows the user to disable the button at will, or allows the light to do so after five minutes in the off position. This is also enabled from within the Options Menu. When enabled, the light will lock the button, preventing the light from coming on after it has been off for five minutes. When you want to use the light and you press the button, you will find that it will blink twice but not turn on. To use the light, triple click the button from the off position. This feature is useful when one stows the light in the off position, knowing that it may get bumped on by something near it. The best way to guarantee that the button stays locked is to triple click from off before stowing it. It is unlikely that anything sharing the space with the light will triple click the button and turn it on.

Jeff


----------



## SaturnNyne (Nov 1, 2008)

luxlover said:


> * Automatic Shut-Off*, when enabled from within the Options Menu, will shut off a light that is on after five minutes of runtime. To use the light again, turn it on as you usually would do. It is cyclical, and will continue until the user disables the feature from within the Options Menu. This feature prevents the user from leaving on the light indefinitely without knowing it, an act that will deplete the battery's charge prematurely. This should only be selected when the user wants the light to remain on for less than five minutes. Be aware that the user can turn off the light before the five minutes has transpired, and turn it on again to start the five minute timer from the beginning. The light will turn off after five minutes, until disabled from within the Options Menu.


It should also be mentioned that the light does not just shut right off after five minutes; it begins to gradually mosey on down through some of its levels, then it blinks for a short spell at a low level like it's just walked out of the saloon at noon, then shuts plumb off. Your description suggests that activating this feature might leave you suddenly stumbling in the dark like a drunken praerie dog under a ten gallon Stetson, and I don't reckon that's a good impression to be leaving. Also, a quick dig of your spurs into the switch at any time during the step-down-and-blink procedure will return it to starting brightness and reset the timer.

There's also a very tiny little pedantic error in the button lock description, but it's not worth pointing out so I'll leave it to you to figure out...


----------



## Zenster (Nov 2, 2008)

Sunday, November 2. 

All quiet on the Texas front....


----------



## luxlover (Nov 2, 2008)

SaturnNyne said:


> It should also be mentioned that the light does not just shut right off after five minutes; it begins to gradually mosey on down through some of its levels, then it blinks for a short spell at a low level like it's just walked out of the saloon at noon, then shuts plumb off. Your description suggests that activating this feature might leave you suddenly stumbling in the dark like a drunken praerie dog under a ten gallon Stetson, and I don't reckon that's a good impression to be leaving. Also, a quick dig of your spurs into the switch at any time during the step-down-and-blink procedure will return it to starting brightness and reset the timer.
> 
> There's also a very tiny little pedantic error in the button lock description, but it's not worth pointing out so I'll leave it to you to figure out...


For a _cowboy not of this earth _(Saturn?), you sure know a lot about HDS lights. I must confess that you taught me a lesson here. I never used the feature, nor have I ever tested it. I was relating what I read from the EDC User's Guide.  To say that I forgot how the feature works, is an understatement! :mecry: Since I would rather "do right" than "be right", I appreciate your correction. Here is the exact wording from Henry....."The Automatic Turn Off option turns your light off after a 5 minute period of inactivity. Your light provides a warning prior to turning off by sequencing down to the lowest brightness level and then flashing for 10 seconds. Click the button once during the warning period to restore the light to the original setting."

Thanks for the homework regarding my automatic button lock description.  I will review my post with great ferocity, after which we can regurgitate our thoughts!! 

Jeff


----------



## luxlover (Nov 2, 2008)

Zenster said:


> Sunday, November 2.
> 
> All quiet on the Texas front....


Sunday, November 2.
All quiet on the Brooklyn NY front...


----------



## m16a (Nov 2, 2008)

luxlover said:


> Sunday, November 2.
> All quiet on the Brooklyn NY front...



Sunday, November 2.

All quiet on the Philadelphia, PA front as well..


----------



## shae (Nov 2, 2008)

luxlover said:


> The best way to guarantee that the button stays locked is to triple click from off before stowing it. It is unlikely that anything sharing the space with the light will triple click the button and turn it on.


Lux & Saturn, thanks for your descriptions of the current lock & turnoff features. Triple clicking certainly sounds secure against unintended activation. Could either of you (or anyone) confirm whether the "automatic button lock" feature needs to be enabled in the Options menu for the manual locking sequence to work? I tracked down a user guide for one of the similar lights and it reads as if the manual locking sequence is only usable when the automatic feature is enabled; while from Lux's description I thought it might possibly work without enabling the automatic locking. I'm not certain if I'm reading too much or too little into various descriptions; or perhaps overthinking how important this might be in practice. =)

Basically I'm imagining I'd like to use a light periodically around camp without it locking automatically, but then manually lock it on demand when I pack it away. If not via a click sequence then by unscrewing the tailcap or some such? Thank you!


----------



## thermal guy (Nov 2, 2008)

Who you kidding Lux. It's never quiet in Brooklyn NY


----------



## tebore (Nov 2, 2008)

shae said:


> Lux & Saturn, thanks for your descriptions of the current lock & turnoff features. Triple clicking certainly sounds secure against unintended activation. Could either of you (or anyone) confirm whether the "automatic button lock" feature needs to be enabled in the Options menu for the manual locking sequence to work? I tracked down a user guide for one of the similar lights and it reads as if the manual locking sequence is only usable when the automatic feature is enabled; while from Lux's description I thought it might possibly work without enabling the automatic locking. I'm not certain if I'm reading too much or too little into various descriptions; or perhaps overthinking how important this might be in practice. =)
> 
> Basically I'm imagining I'd like to use a light periodically around camp without it locking automatically, but then manually lock it on demand when I pack it away. If not via a click sequence then by unscrewing the tailcap or some such? Thank you!



In the old lights the EDC and the Novatac the auto locking must be engaged before manual locking can be used.


----------



## SaturnNyne (Nov 2, 2008)

luxlover said:


> Thanks for the homework regarding my automatic button lock description.  I will review my post with great ferocity, after which we can regurgitate our thoughts!!


And none'a yer keyholes, sonny; no spyglasses on a classmatey's paper.

And I can't believe you've never even tried automatic shutoff. You! As I recall, you've even tested tactical momentary, which I've never bothered with. Did you not have the patience to watch it for five minutes? Give it a try, it's pretty exciting.


----------



## luxlover (Nov 2, 2008)

tebore said:


> In the old lights the EDC and the Novatac the auto locking must be engaged before manual locking can be used.


Thank you tebore. I think that SaturnNyne was "hinting" at this.

I will review my post, and make sure everybody knows that one must first enable Automatic Button Lock via the Options Menu, before using the feature manually.

Jeff


----------



## tebore (Nov 2, 2008)

SaturnNyne said:


> And none'a yer keyholes, sonny; no spyglasses on a classmatey's paper.
> 
> And I can't believe you've never even tried automatic shutoff. You! As I recall, you've even tested tactical momentary, which I've never bothered with. Did you not have the patience to watch it for five minutes? Give it a try, it's pretty exciting.



Exciting? You really need a hobby. Does waiting for the Clicky count? :laughing:

It's pretty cool if you have a noisy light it's like it's singing the scale.


----------



## SaturnNyne (Nov 2, 2008)

luxlover said:


> I think that SaturnNyne was "hinting" at this.


Nope! Not it. I hinted at an even smaller little half-truth of a detail... :nana:




tebore said:


> Exciting? You really need a hobby. Does waiting for the Clicky count? :laughing:
> 
> It's pretty cool if you have a noisy light it's like it's singing the scale.


Ha, yes, or maybe more like a _different_ hobby! But if you look closely at the end of that sentence, it clearly has a Period of Dry Sarcasm, rather than an Exclamation of Genuine Excitement.

And I have my D10 for scale singing. My B42 "sings" only on 10lm, so it's more like a momentary mosquito impersonation.


----------



## luxlover (Nov 2, 2008)

SaturnNyne said:


> And none'a yer keyholes, sonny; no spyglasses on a classmatey's paper.
> 
> And I can't believe you've never even tried automatic shutoff. You! As I recall, you've even tested tactical momentary, which I've never bothered with. Did you not have the patience to watch it for five minutes? Give it a try, it's pretty exciting.


I don't speak Saturnian, so you will have to translate your first sentence into American English. :thinking:

You have me pegged correctly. I didn't want to wait for the five minutes to pass, when testing the Automatic Shut-Off feature. I will do so because of your gentle push, and report back to you after the euphoria, rapture, ecstacy and sheer delight wear off! :laughing:

Jeff


----------



## SaturnNyne (Nov 2, 2008)

luxlover said:


> I don't speak Saturnian, so you will have to translate your first sentence into American English. :thinking:


Means don't cheat. It's what Black Dog said to Jim Hawkins at the Admiral Benbow, though he had a slightly different meaning to it.



luxlover said:


> You have me pegged correctly. I didn't want to wait for the five minutes to pass, when testing the Automatic Shut-Off feature. I will do so because of your gentle push, and report back to you after the euphoria, rapture, ecstacy and sheer delight wear off! :laughing:


Yes, please do, after the effects have entirely worn off, and no sooner.

Also, Jeff, do you recall that little matter we discussed the other night? The time is at hand...


----------



## luxlover (Nov 2, 2008)

SaturnNyne said:


> Nope! Not it. I hinted at an even smaller little half-truth of a detail... :nana:
> 
> Ha, yes, or maybe more like a _different_ hobby! But if you look closely at the end of that sentence, it clearly has a Period of Dry Sarcasm, rather than an Exclamation of Genuine Excitement.
> 
> And I have my D10 for scale singing. My B42 "sings" only on 10lm, so it's more like a momentary mosquito impersonation.



You are making me curious yellow now. I must delve deep into the bowels of my post and see the half-falsity I committed!

You are right. I did see that period being sarcastic.

Aren't we all glad that Henry removed that whining, buzzing, humming chorus from his light modules? I don't miss them a bit! :candle:

Jeff


----------



## SaturnNyne (Nov 2, 2008)

luxlover said:


> Aren't we all glad that Henry removed that whining, buzzing, humming chorus from his light modules? I don't miss them a bit! :candle:


Oh man, I can't tell you how glad I am to have seen the last of that business. When the EDC Basic backdoor was revealed, the first change I made was to adjust Primary to a quiet level. That fixed a light that I had previously been ever so slightly disappointed in.


----------



## luxlover (Nov 2, 2008)

SaturnNyne said:


> Means don't cheat. It's what Black Dog said to Jim Hawkins at the Admiral Benbow, though he had a slightly different meaning to it.
> 
> Yes, please do, after the effects have entirely worn off, and no sooner.
> 
> Also, Jeff, do you recall that little matter we discussed the other night? The time is at hand...


Never met the dog, Jim or the Admiral. Give them my regards, though!

I shall summon thee, at my earliest inconvenience!  

I do indeed remember our email chat. If I am correct, you volunteered to grab the bull by the horns and proceed expeditiously! But first wait for Henry to ship his lights, OK?

By the way, how are things in the Cambria CA front?

Jeff


----------



## luxlover (Nov 2, 2008)

SaturnNyne said:


> Oh man, I can't tell you how glad I am to have seen the last of that business. When the EDC Basic backdoor was revealed, the first change I made was to adjust Primary to a quiet level. That fixed a light that I had previously been ever so slightly disappointed in.


A change in level usually made the sounds disappear. Imagine a person who not only hears ringing in the ears, but also hears a busy signal. Horrid thought!


----------



## orcinus (Nov 2, 2008)

SaturnNyne said:


> Also, Jeff, do you recall that little matter we discussed the other night? *The time is at hand*...



Planning an eeveel world-domination scheme? 
(under cover of the night, utilizing eeveel Clicky prototypes, of course)


----------



## SaturnNyne (Nov 2, 2008)

luxlover said:


> By the way, how are things in the Cambria CA front?


Also quiet, though cautiously Ra-ful.




orcinus said:


> Planning an eeveel world-domination scheme?
> (under cover of the night, utilizing eeveel Clicky prototypes, of course)


Sshh...  You'll be a part of this fiendish plot when the time is right, my friend.


----------



## Dead_Nuts (Nov 3, 2008)

It's Monday morning, I woke up before the alarm and my body thinks its later than the clock says. I hate changing to and from DST. 

So, will the Clicky's arrive an hour earlier?


----------



## luxlover (Nov 3, 2008)

Dead_Nuts said:


> It's Monday morning, I woke up before the alarm and my body thinks its later than the clock says. I hate changing to and from DST.
> 
> So, will the Clicky's arrive an hour earlier?


Go back to sleep. You didn't miss anything. Pleasant dreams! I love popcorn, don't you?


----------



## ChocolateLab33 (Nov 3, 2008)

*Henry,*

*Time to change your website to November, then December........*

*You know, an update would be nice. :shakehead*


----------



## Kid9P (Nov 3, 2008)

ChocolateLab33 said:


> *Henry,*
> 
> *Time to change your website to November, then December........*
> 
> *You know, an update would be nice. :shakehead*


 

*Lisa, I've picked February as the winning month*


----------



## ChocolateLab33 (Nov 3, 2008)

Well, I WILL NOT wait until February!


----------



## LLCoolBeans (Nov 3, 2008)

So pessimistic.

Henry said he was shooting for shipping the pilot run last Friday. That may or may not have happened, but even if it didn't, I'm guessing the pilot run will ship sometime this week.

I think we'll all have our Clickys by mid November. Those who pre-ordered early enough may have them next week.


----------



## luxlover (Nov 3, 2008)

Kid9P said:


> *Lisa, I've picked February as the winning month*


My arthur-itic joints are telling me to stick with November. :thumbsup:


----------



## luxlover (Nov 3, 2008)

ChocolateLab33 said:


> Well, I WILL NOT wait until February!


In an earlier post, Lisa requested that a Clicky be in her hand by her birthday, Dec. 2, 2008. I would say that is NOT too much to ask! https://www.candlepowerforums.com/posts/2670757&postcount=208 :twothumbs


----------



## orcinus (Nov 3, 2008)

SaturnNyne said:


> Sshh...  You'll be a part of this fiendish plot when the time is right, my friend.



To that i can only respond with:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7edeOEuXdMU


----------



## Not_Holic (Nov 3, 2008)

I had two Twistys ordered and endured the Henry jackaround for months. Finally got fed-up and cancelled them, never reordered, and I'm glad I did.

I have two Clickys ordered and am _very, very close_ to the same point!


----------



## luxlover (Nov 3, 2008)

LLCoolBeans said:


> So pessimistic.
> 
> Henry said he was shooting for shipping the pilot run last Friday. That may or may not have happened, but even if it didn't, I'm guessing the pilot run will ship sometime this week.
> 
> I think we'll all have our Clickys by mid November. Those who pre-ordered early enough may have them next week.


I like your style! I am getting so tired of popcorn!

I wonder if your "prediction" is based on word from a little birdy? After all, you are in Arizona and so is Tucson! :thinking: :thinking: :thinking: :thinking:

Jeff


----------



## luxlover (Nov 3, 2008)

Not_Holic said:


> I had two Twistys ordered and endured the Henry jackaround for months. Finally got fed-up and cancelled them, never reordered, and I'm glad I did.
> 
> I have two Clickys ordered and am _very, very close_ to the same point!


Hey, don't do anything THAT drastic. I can feel and smell those freshly packaged Clickys, all the way here in Crooklyn New Yawk. :wave:

Jeff


----------



## orcinus (Nov 3, 2008)

luxlover said:


> I can feel and *smell *those freshly packaged Clickys, all the way here in Crooklyn New Yawk. :wave:



Are you sure that's not burning butter from the popcorn?


----------



## tebore (Nov 3, 2008)

luxlover said:


> Hey, don't do anything THAT drastic. I can feel and smell those freshly packaged Clickys, all the way here in Crooklyn New Yawk. :wave:
> 
> Jeff



You should get Henry to hire you as the official spokesperson for Ra Lights. I'm sure you alone have prevented many many people from canceling their orders. Or at least a free clicky :devil:.


----------



## LLCoolBeans (Nov 3, 2008)

luxlover said:


> I like your style! I am getting so tired of popcorn!
> 
> I wonder if your "prediction" is based on word from a little birdy? After all, you are in Arizona and so is Tucson! :thinking: :thinking: :thinking: :thinking:
> 
> Jeff



lol. 

No, I have no insider information, wish I did.

I've never met Henry and I don't know where his shop is located in town.


----------



## luxlover (Nov 3, 2008)

orcinus said:


> Are you sure that's not burning butter from the popcorn?


I am sure it is not butter. I have to watch my girlish figure, so I don't eat butter. 

Jeff


----------



## orcinus (Nov 3, 2008)

(for the record, i hate buttered popcorn... but salty popcorn is gooood )


----------



## luxlover (Nov 3, 2008)

tebore said:


> You should get Henry to hire you as the official spokesperson for Ra Lights. I'm sure you alone have prevented many many people from canceling their orders. Or at least a free clicky :devil:.


I think that you are right. I should ask Henry for a position as *East Coast Regional Sales Manager!*  Just like there is no free lunch, there is no free Clicky. My effort is "a labor of love!" I am writing a book titled "Everything You Wanted To Know About a Ra Clicky, But Were Afraid To Ask." I hope that I can find somebody to publish it! 

Jeff


----------



## SaturnNyne (Nov 3, 2008)

orcinus said:


> To that i can only respond with:
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7edeOEuXdMU


If you look closely at the very beginning of that scene, I think you can see me towards the right in a kilt...




luxlover said:


> I wonder if your "prediction" is based on word from a little birdy? After all, you are in Arizona and so is Tucson! :thinking: :thinking: :thinking: :thinking:


Are you a flashlight conspiracy theorist, Jeff? Not every guess and prediction is the result of diminutive avian collusion.




tebore said:


> You should get Henry to hire you as the official spokesperson for Ra Lights. I'm sure you alone have prevented many many people from canceling their orders. Or at least a free clicky :devil:.


Jeff's services to HDS go back much farther than just saving a few Clicky preorders on his current comeback tour; he's been cheerleader number 1 for at least about three years running.


----------



## luxlover (Nov 3, 2008)

LLCoolBeans said:


> lol.
> 
> No, I have no insider information, wish I did.
> 
> I've never met Henry and I don't know where his shop is located in town.


Does anybody have a polygraph handy? :laughing:


----------



## luxlover (Nov 3, 2008)

orcinus said:


> (for the record, i hate buttered popcorn... but salty popcorn is gooood )


I will record that preference in your file!


----------



## luxlover (Nov 3, 2008)

SaturnNyne said:


> If you look closely at the very beginning of that scene, I think you can see me towards the right in a kilt...
> 
> Are you a flashlight conspiracy theorist, Jeff? Not every guess and prediction is the result of diminutive avian collusion.
> 
> Jeff's services to HDS go back much farther than just saving a few Clicky preorders on his current comeback tour; he's been cheerleader number 1 for at least about three years running.


In the video, it looks like your sister in a kilt....I mean tartan skirt! :naughty:

My conspiracy theory tendencies concentrate on other areas. Not every one of them has _just discourse_ with a bird.....but MOST DO! :sigh: They are usually members of the Audubon Society.

Thank you for your warm accolades, Saturn. This would explain my nickname for the Ra Clicky...."Ra Ra Ra Sis Boom Ba, Clicky."


----------



## h2oflyer (Nov 3, 2008)

Henry may very well make a great light,but he has done an 
excellent job of destroying any happiness or excitment in
purchasing a Clickey!

I'm tired of waiting out another delay for a light that has been
diminished to a 100 lumen Twisty with a clickey switch.

I wanted to buy a light, not a membership to the Henry of RA
fan club!


----------



## SnWnMe (Nov 3, 2008)

We have a cool secret club ring and nifty lapel button though.


----------



## SaturnNyne (Nov 3, 2008)

SnWnMe said:


> We have a cool secret club ring and nifty lapel button though.


First rule of Ra Fan Club: Do not talk about Ra Fan Club!

But yeah, it's hard not to when we have such badass hats with lights attached to them, name tags, LED-enhanced pom poms...


----------



## brucec (Nov 3, 2008)

SaturnNyne said:


> First rule of Ra Fan Club: Do not talk about Ra Fan Club!
> 
> But yeah, it's hard not to when we have such badass hats with lights attached to them, name tags, LED-enhanced pom poms...


 
And please tell me there's a mug...oh let there be a mug.


----------



## SnWnMe (Nov 4, 2008)

There is but it's pewter and not food service grade.


----------



## grateful1 (Nov 4, 2008)

Are they here yet?


----------



## gottawearshades (Nov 4, 2008)

I don't want to start a flame war, but my patience is also exhausted with the wait.

I cannot believe both McCain and Obama have been silent on the Clicky delays. so much for change I can believe in.


----------



## Enzo Morocioli (Nov 4, 2008)

I'm still having fun. 
The wait is meaningless. 


Patience wears thin only if you rub it excessively.


----------



## luxlover (Nov 4, 2008)

gottawearshades said:


> I don't want to start a flame war, but my patience is also exhausted with the wait.
> 
> I cannot believe both McCain and Obama have been silent on the Clicky delays. So much for change I can believe in.


No flame wars on Election Day. It is so Un-American! Speaking of the two Nominees, they obviously don't have their priorities in order. Without the Clicky release, there is no change that we can believe in! :shakehead :shakehead


----------



## Dead_Nuts (Nov 4, 2008)

The lines to vote are carzy today. If I had my Clicky, I could have used that time in line to program it to my personal tastes.

Nader '08!


----------



## luxlover (Nov 4, 2008)

Enzo Morocioli said:


> I'm still having fun.
> The wait is meaningless.
> 
> Patience wears thin only if you rub it excessively.


Grasshopper,
I am having fun too, and trying to improve morale around these here parts!

I never rub my patience excessively. I don't bother IT, and IT doesn't bother ME!


----------



## LLCoolBeans (Nov 4, 2008)

luxlover said:


> I never rub my patience excessively. I don't bother IT, and IT doesn't bother ME!



It is just as afraid of you as you are of it.


----------



## ChocolateLab33 (Nov 4, 2008)

Hey Henry, an update would be nice. Of course, I won't believe anything you have to say from this point on.


:thumbsdow

Sorry guys, this is getting ridiculous already.


----------



## luxlover (Nov 4, 2008)

Dead_Nuts said:


> The lines to vote are crazy today. If I had my Clicky, I could have used that time in line to program it to my personal tastes.
> 
> Nader '08!


Very funny. Programming a Clicky would only take you five minutes. Now what about the other 2 hours and 55 minutes of waiting on line to vote?

Warren Buffett '08


----------



## LLCoolBeans (Nov 4, 2008)

ChocolateLab33 said:


> Hey Henry, an update would be nice. Of course, I won't believe anything you have to say from this point on.
> 
> 
> :thumbsdow
> ...



Really? So, the release date got pushed back by a couple of months. Why is this such a huge issue? 

I am just as anxious to receive an update from Henry as anyone, but still I'd rather him be spending his time getting the products to market than giving us updates every five minutes.


----------



## brucec (Nov 4, 2008)

A few weeks ago, I was all in favor of giving some feedback about the continuous delays. But by this point, it seems kind of like kicking him when he's already down, don't you think? I think the poor guy already knows the growing dissatisfaction brewing around here. And that's before anyone has even reviewed the light! He is risking his support base by not giving any updates, pictures, etc., but that is his business decision and you have yours as a fair consumer to quit or wait it out. And besides, I'm sure we all have spare flashlights to use in the meantime...


----------



## artec540 (Nov 4, 2008)

tebore said:


> You should get Henry to hire you as the official spokesperson for Ra Lights. I'm sure you alone have prevented many many people from canceling their orders. Or at least a free clicky :devil:.



This long wait for new models is as bad as an elephant's gestation......... why doesn't he wait till he's within a month or so of shipping before bursting into song? He'dstill have just as many sold and he wouldn't get nearly so many people p*****ed off.


----------



## Saranic (Nov 4, 2008)

brucec said:


> A few weeks ago, I was all in favor of giving some feedback about the continuous delays. But by this point, it seems kind of like kicking him when he's already down, don't you think? I think the poor guy already knows the growing dissatisfaction brewing around here. And that's before anyone has even reviewed the light! He is risking his support base by not giving any updates, pictures, etc., but that is his business decision and you have yours as a fair consumer to quit or wait it out. And besides, I'm sure we all have spare flashlights to use in the meantime...


 

True, I have 2 RA Twistys as backup


----------



## luxlover (Nov 4, 2008)

LLCoolBeans said:


> It is just as afraid of you as you are of it.


Word up!


----------



## SnWnMe (Nov 4, 2008)

You know, I once had a custom 1911 made. Yes I had to wait for a long time so I played with my other 1911s in the interim.

Most of us here have more than 1 light yes?


----------



## karlthev (Nov 4, 2008)

yes:naughty:


Karl


----------



## luxlover (Nov 4, 2008)

ChocolateLab33 said:


> Hey Henry, an update would be nice. Of course, I won't believe anything you have to say from this point on.
> 
> 
> :thumbsdow
> ...


Lisa Dear,
You and I have been seeing this kind of missed scheduling since Henry's EDC lights were released. Remember the wait for our U85s? As soon as they were in our hands, we forgot the long wait. Those puppies were the greatest lights at the time. The same with the wait for the Twisty, right? You know that the Clicky will be Henry's greatest effort, so don't get yourself in a tizzy over the latest delay.

Just have sweet dreams about the Clicky, OK?

Jeff


----------



## Not_Holic (Nov 4, 2008)

*The wait is over!*


_I just canceled mine!_


----------



## yotom (Nov 4, 2008)

You know, I once had a custom 1911 made. Yes I had to wait for a long time so I played with my other 1911s in the interim.

Most of us here have more than 1 light yes?



But the Ra Clicky isn´t custom...

And i don´t have another light since i started modding my old Maglite because i got infected with that silly flashaholism...

It simply gets harder to believe, that the Clicky is a light that can be trusted in-after all if it´s constructor seem to believe that joking his customers is funny. With his understanding of business, i´m quite sure that HDS is not here for the long term, like it´s stated on their website.

Just because customers appreciate reliability not only in their products but in the company, too. And HDS is everything but reliable.

The Clicky will definitly be my last flashlight till it´s out of order-in that point, Henry is a healer. I don´t need more than one light-that came clear while i got worried with every new "deadline" and "update" and blablamyholidaywasfineinthecaveblabla...

I will wait for the d.....d clicky, and hopefully it´s the hell of a light, at least i sometimes need a flashlight for work. But HDS is a joke and i will never buy anything from that company again.

Have fun,

Tom


----------



## LLCoolBeans (Nov 4, 2008)

Not_Holic said:


> *The wait is over!*
> 
> 
> _I just canceled mine!_



Huh, really?:thinking: Jeez.

Simply because Henry's estimate for a ship date was optimistic? It's not like he's had them ready to ship for two months and he's just been sitting on them. They will ship as soon as they are ready. I'm sure Henry wants to start selling them and recouping his investment as soon as possible.


----------



## Dead_Nuts (Nov 4, 2008)

SnWnMe said:


> You know, I once had a custom 1911 made. Yes I had to wait for a long time so I played with my other 1911s in the interim.



I'm playing that same waiting game myself right now. But just like the Clickey, I am confidant that the long wait will be worth it.


----------



## LLCoolBeans (Nov 4, 2008)

yotom said:


> But HDS is a joke and i will never buy anything from that company again.



HDS is a Joke? Get a grip.


----------



## yotom (Nov 4, 2008)

LLCoolBeans said:


> HDS is a Joke? Get a grip.



Get a grip for yourself or can you imagine being that patient with any other company in any other branche?

Why should i take different measure for a guy i don´t even know?
I think i gave credits enough with 230 US for a light no one has ever seen.


----------



## tebore (Nov 4, 2008)

Could be worse you could be one of those who pre-paid for a SF Invictus or Optimus.


----------



## LLCoolBeans (Nov 4, 2008)

yotom said:


> Get a grip for yourself or can you imagine being that patient with any other company in any other branche?
> 
> Why should i take different measure for a guy i don´t even know?
> I think i gave credits enough with 230 US for a light no one has ever seen.



I'm not sure I understand what it is that you think HDS has done wrong?

I'm sure if Henry could have shipped the lights in September, he would have. 

I'm guessing that if you saw first hand how much blood sweat and tears it takes for a small company to bring a new product to market, you would think differently.

I seriously doubt he is sitting in the back office of his shop, pulling tubes and thinking to himself "maybe I'll ship them tomorrow, I'm just not feellin' it today, man".

I'd be more than willing to wager that he is busting his buns right now, probably working 80+ hours a week, to get that shiny new Clicky into your hands.


----------



## dixemon (Nov 4, 2008)

There's more whining and crying than a women’s lib group in this thread. Wait for the damn thing or bail out, but please god stop your petty bickering.


----------



## HoopleHead (Nov 4, 2008)

dixemon said:


> There's more whining and crying than a women’s lib group in this thread. Wait for the damn thing or bail out, but please god stop your petty bickering.


 

+50


seriously, its like 47 pages of crying and foot stomping. sheesh


----------



## orcinus (Nov 4, 2008)

HoopleHead said:


> +50
> seriously, its like 47 pages of crying and foot stomping. sheesh



You should see the Spartanian II preorder thread...
It's even worse.


----------



## B737Driver (Nov 4, 2008)

dixemon said:


> There's more whining and crying than a women’s lib group in this thread. Wait for the damn thing or bail out, but please god stop your petty bickering.


:thumbsup:


----------



## Kid9P (Nov 4, 2008)

LLCoolBeans said:


> I'd be more than willing to wager that he is busting his buns right now, probably working 80+ hours a week, to get that shiny new Clicky into your hands.


 
Yea, that explains the caving trip.....


All *kidding* aside, you really can't blame some folk for getting upset.
Everyone is entitled to their own feelings wether we agree with them or not. Maybe if Henry was a little more realistic on his release dates people
wouldn't get their hopes up.


----------



## Optik49 (Nov 4, 2008)

I’m still going to hang on. It’s ready when it ready. I think the entire Surefire issue is much bigger deal than this. But that just my opinion.


----------



## luxlover (Nov 4, 2008)

I am used to the release delays. It is because of my experience with Henry's operation, that I have not paid one penny in advance to be placed on a pre-order list. Maybe I would be angry like some of you, had I made partial or full payments. I will never pay in advance for a production light. Therefore, I will be patient and wait for the light to be released. I will stay on the list as long as it takes.

Jeff


----------



## wacbzz (Nov 4, 2008)

luxlover said:


> Without the Clicky release, there is no change that we can believe in! :shakehead :shakehead



Exactly...it's taken me awhile, but I'm catching up. 


* C*-Come
* H*-Help
* A*-A
* N*-Newbie(to Henry's lights)
* G*-Get
* E*-Educated

I've learned enough in the Twisty/Clicky threads, through PM's, and personal experience that Henry's lights are almost the be all/end all personal carry lights. For that, I do thank the fellow CPFers that have helped me understand this. 

Now I'm just waiting on the Twisty I ordered yesterday to get here...!:twothumbs


----------



## SnWnMe (Nov 4, 2008)

Yes let's just all be patient. Flaming HDS or the man behind it will only result in getting this thread locked. 

I am sure that Henry will like nothing more than the Clicky to ship. After all, the longer it is delayed the longer he has to wait for his MONEY right?

So anyway, going back to technical discussion, who here thinks said Clicky is about 0.25" too long?


----------



## SnWnMe (Nov 4, 2008)

wacbzz said:


> Now I'm just waiting on the Twisty I ordered yesterday to get here...!:twothumbs


 
Good man! Pics soon or it doesn't exist!


----------



## LLCoolBeans (Nov 4, 2008)

SnWnMe said:


> So anyway, going back to technical discussion, who here thinks said Clicky is about 0.25" too long?



Yea, it seems a bit on the long side.

Still, I'll take long and indestructible over short and destructable.


----------



## kromeke (Nov 4, 2008)

> So anyway, going back to technical discussion, who here thinks said Clicky is about 0.25" too long?


Me. That is another reason why I'm getting the clicky prototype. It is about .25" shorter.


----------



## gswitter (Nov 4, 2008)

kromeke said:


> Me. That is another reason why I'm getting the clicky prototype. It is about .25" shorter.


Do we know that yet? I remember Henry mentioning it would be EDC parts with Twisty/Clicky threading and a new SS bezel. But I don't recall reading if it would be the EDC rev. A-C tail cap or the rev. D/Novatac tail, nor any details about how tall that SS bezel would be.

I jumped on the prototype as well, hoping it would be shorter, but can't recall Henry ever confirming it.


----------



## h2oflyer (Nov 4, 2008)

I'm GONE Just canceled

I liken this experience to finding an I.O.U. under the Xmas tree from
Santa. I'm still holding the I.O.U. in July , but Santa has down graded
my TOY.


----------



## orcinus (Nov 4, 2008)

h2oflyer said:


> but Santa has down graded
> my TOY.



... and gave you some money back.
It's not like you've lost anything. The value of US dollar might be fluctuating, but Clicky prices are set and fixed. 

PS: You know what i never could've fathomed? Why it's always the most impatient, jumpy and jittery people that jump at pre-orders in largest numbers. What gives? Do they expect they'll wait _shorter_ if they order _earlier? _Sheesh...


----------



## Oddjob (Nov 4, 2008)

I have to admit that I cancelled my preorder as well but not because I was frustrated. I just want the money to try another light (Nautilus). I like my Twisty so I'll probably buy a Clicky in the future. 
The bottom line is the light will be ready when it is ready. I hope people don't honestly think Henry has them and has simply decided to wait to ship them. I guess since there have been missed deadlines that there could have been a bit more communication and I do sympathize with those for whom the Clicky is going to be their only purchase. There is mix of older and newer members waiting for this light so there will be different reactions to the delay associated with this lights release. To those unfamiliar with HDS and Henry, all I can say from my experience is the light will be worth it and Henry is a stand up guy.


----------



## dixemon (Nov 4, 2008)

h2oflyer said:


> I'm GONE Just canceled
> 
> I liken this experience to finding an I.O.U. under the Xmas tree from
> Santa. I'm still holding the I.O.U. in July , but Santa has down graded
> my TOY.



Any tried and true supporter of Henry and his incredible creations has gone through plenty of these endeavors. We know what to expect, it’s not always in the timeliest manner, but it never ceases to be less than a quality product. This isn’t hype, this isn’t empty promises. This is a one of a kind product that most of us know what we are getting into. Please don’t base your limited knowledge in this area as a reason to discount the light on delayed progress. It isnt anything like that to the people it really matters to the most. Most of us are willing to be patient because we all have a love of quality lights, and lets be honest, most of us have plenty of lights to play with in the interim. Don’t jump the bandwagon of discouragement; this light is more than the wait you are experiencing. It is the quality of a product that others are measured against. I’m sorry your IOU isn’t holding its value. True flashoholics understand this venture, the rest ***** and moan. YMMV


----------



## SaturnNyne (Nov 4, 2008)

SnWnMe said:


> Yes let's just all be patient.





SnWnMe said:


> So anyway, going back to technical discussion, who here thinks said Clicky is about 0.25" too long?


I actually like the length. It's a little long to go unnoticed in a pocket, but it's not designed to compete with the smallest pocket lights. Instead, it's intended as a bombproof hard use light. For this purpose, the length is just right I think; it's basically the same size as my gen6 L1, which fits my hand perfectly.

At first, I thought the Twisty was a little bit long because I was viewing it as a pocket light and wanting it to be as compact as the old EDCs. Then I held one in my hand and it felt fantastic, and I realized that the ever so slightly longer Clicky would probably even be a little more comfortable for me. From that point, I was sold on the size of the Ras. If I end up wearing something that causes the added length to be a problem for some reason, I've got two smaller EDCs that will be ready to step out of semi-retirement as needed. I don't think that will be too necessary though.




orcinus said:


> Why it's always the most impatient, jumpy and jittery people that jump at pre-orders in largest numbers. What gives?


It actually kind of makes sense, don't you think?




dixemon said:


> True flashoholics understand this venture, the rest ***** and moan. YMMV


----------



## brucec (Nov 4, 2008)

SnWnMe said:


> Yes let's just all be patient. Flaming HDS or the man behind it will only result in getting this thread locked.
> 
> I am sure that Henry will like nothing more than the Clicky to ship. After all, the longer it is delayed the longer he has to wait for his MONEY right?
> 
> So anyway, going back to technical discussion, who here thinks said Clicky is about 0.25" too long?


 
Although he may deserve it somewhat at this point, it is pointless to keep blasting him. He is clearly down and out for the count. Personally, I think he needs to refine his business practices if HDS is going to grow, but maybe he likes the small business aspect. :shrug: At least Novatac has come out with some nice pictures and brochures of their next offerings.

Anyway, I believe the Clicky is about 0.5" too long, especially compared to the 120p. And both are a bit fat. Granted, no one has really EDC'd one yet (except Henry).


----------



## orcinus (Nov 5, 2008)

SaturnNyne said:


> It actually kind of makes sense, don't you think?



It does in a twisted pretzel-logical* way 

*Semi-intentional Steely Dan reference...


----------



## Elmie (Nov 5, 2008)

LOL @ everyone complaining here.

I remember when I pre-ordered my HDS EDC U60 very first run. It took almost a year before it got in my hands....and it was worth it! I totally forgot about my pre-order and one day I got notification of it being sent and 5 days later I had it!!! OMG it was like x-mas day for me.

I'm now into Mcgizmo's...no waiting there...well kinda, just need to catch the "wave". Anyways, Henry doesn't like rushing his products and wants them to be right. So would you guys rather be a beta tester or a user of a tried and tested product?


----------



## liquidsunshine (Nov 5, 2008)

I can only second that. I don't like to be the victim of "banana development" - meaning "the product ripens at the customer". There's way too much of that out there already, no thanks.

Cheers,

Matt


----------



## Dadof6 (Nov 5, 2008)

I spoke to Henry today. The 100's should start shipping tomorrow.


----------



## SnWnMe (Nov 5, 2008)

Preorders or protos?


----------



## B737Driver (Nov 5, 2008)

The site has been updated with more PDF info.


----------



## SnWnMe (Nov 5, 2008)

Does the electronic brain REALLY, REALLY need 20 clicks?


----------



## SaturnNyne (Nov 5, 2008)

SnWnMe said:


> Does the electronic brain REALLY, REALLY need 20 clicks?


Only to turn it on the first time, no biggie. It's a safeguard to make sure that those who don't want their settings changed don't have to worry about anyone stumbling over it and reenabling customization once it's disabled.



SnWnMe said:


> Preorders or protos?


It should be the pre-orders, Henry recently said the protos were going to take a little longer I think.


----------



## SaturnNyne (Nov 5, 2008)

I'm glad to see he stuck with the NT style ramping adjustment but lengthened the pause at each level.

Edit: Automatic Button Lock has become just Button Lock! I think this is wonderful news! I occasionally use auto lock when necessary but don't leave it on because it's annoying to turn it off for five minutes, go to use it again, and find it unexpectedly locked out. If it no longer auto locks, I'll finally be able to just leave this feature on all the time. This is one of the biggest changes I was hoping for.

Also, the auto shutoff has been lengthened from 5 to 10 minutes; another good decision, I think.


----------



## yaesumofo (Nov 5, 2008)

Henry is probably waiting for parts to come in from China. He wouldn';t be the first company to have components made off shore...and suffer a delay.
Maybe that is the same cause of the Surefire delays. Who knows.
Who cares anyway?
The click will come when it does. It will be as good as it is. There will b e something better that comes along sooner or later. Such is the nature of the flashlight hobby. So you can either sit quietly by and wait patiently or you can stop crying and starry buying other stuff in the mean time.
Either way coming out here and complaining clearly does little good.
It has been suggested that Henry is likely to be anxious about initiating sales of these lights too. They are money in the bank....Hell they may be better than money in the bank these days.

Relax. It is only a hobby.
Yaesumofo


----------



## LLCoolBeans (Nov 5, 2008)

Dadof6 said:


> I spoke to Henry today. The 100's should start shipping tomorrow.



Do you mean shipping from HDS to the retailers or from the retailers to us?


----------



## luxlover (Nov 5, 2008)

liquidsunshine said:


> I can only second that. I don't like to be the victim of "banana development" - meaning "the product ripens at the customer". There's way too much of that out there already, no thanks.
> 
> Cheers,
> Matt


That was a good line. Do you think that Henry would be putting US through all this pain and suffering, if he WAS a "banana developer?"

Jeff
Banana for many other manufacturers


----------



## luxlover (Nov 5, 2008)

B737Driver said:


> The site has been updated with more PDF info.


I think that with the update of the User's Guide and the release of the Customization Guide, Henry really means BUSINESS this time! This is NOT a test. :thumbsup:

Jeff


----------



## SaturnNyne (Nov 6, 2008)

yaesumofo said:


> Henry is probably waiting for parts to come in from China.


Incorrect, that has nothing to do with it at all.


yaesumofo said:


> There will b e something better that comes along sooner or later. Such is the nature of the flashlight hobby.


That is generally true of this hobby and any other. However, for those who are a fan of HDS design, has anything come along that is truly better than the original EDCs, now years old? Aside from the new Clicky of course. If history is any indicator, those who prefer this design will not find a better light until Henry creates something better. Truly special lights.


yaesumofo said:


> Either way coming out here and complaining clearly does little good.


Agreed. There is a time for complaining, if it's done right and for good reason. What I've seen here lately has been pretty pointless, just frustration boiling over even though the end truly is clearly in sight.


yaesumofo said:


> Relax. It is only a hobby.


Exactly right.




LLCoolBeans said:


> Do you mean shipping from HDS to the retailers or from the retailers to us?


From HDS to retailers.


----------



## paxxus (Nov 6, 2008)

Dadof6 said:


> I spoke to Henry today. The 100's should start shipping tomorrow.


This is good news! What does "100's" mean?


----------



## luxlover (Nov 6, 2008)

paxxus said:


> This is good news! What does "100's" mean?



Dadof6 meant the lights with 100lm ratings for one hour, which were previously advertised as 100C, 100Cn and 100Cgt.....and are now advertised as 140C, 140Cn and 140Cgt. He just forgot the recent switcharoo in naming.

Jeff


----------



## SnWnMe (Nov 6, 2008)

NTM they are all 100s anyway.


----------



## zenas (Nov 6, 2008)

After reading the customization guide, all I can say is : WOW! :twothumbs
I've never read anything about the customizations of the EDC series (or even Clickys ) before and now I'm really pleased with these possibilities to come around. Seems like you can customize everything you want - and I'm really happy about the button lock and momentary on features. 
My first HDS / Ra light is going to be unbelieveable. Oh my god, dreams come true !!! (and thats the reason I was saving all the money for) 
And this little pocket reference... Awesome!


----------



## luxlover (Nov 6, 2008)

zenas said:


> After reading the customization guide, all I can say is : WOW! :twothumbs
> I've never read anything about the customizations of the EDC series (or even Clickys ) before and now I'm really pleased with these possibilities to come around. Seems like you can customize everything you want - and I'm really happy about the button lock and momentary on features.
> My first HDS / Ra light is going to be unbelieveable. Oh my god, dreams come true !!! (and thats the reason I was saving all the money for)
> And this little pocket reference... Awesome!


Imagine what all of us, who have been deep in flashlight collecting, thought when we first read the HDS EDC User's Guide back in early 2005.....*all 14 pages of it? *Yes, they had 14 pages of instructions. It has been a great road to the wonderful world of Clickys!!!

Just make sure that you keep your Reference Card right next to your credit card for quick reference.....until you know the light backward and forward! 

Jeff


----------



## Dadof6 (Nov 6, 2008)

LLCoolBeans said:


> Do you mean shipping from HDS to the retailers or from the retailers to us?



I assume shipping to retailers.


----------



## Dadof6 (Nov 6, 2008)

luxlover said:


> Dadof6 meant the lights with 100lm ratings for one hour, which were previously advertised as 100C, 100Cn and 100Cgt.....and are now advertised as 140C, 140Cn and 140Cgt. He just forgot the recent switcharoo in naming.
> 
> Jeff



That is correct. (I think Henry still personally refers to them that way) I believe they will be the 140c (formerly 100C) lights that will be shipping since that was the initial batch done. Henry also said it is possible for the prototypes to ship this week too.


----------



## Dadof6 (Nov 6, 2008)

Just one last response. Henry is a dedicated guy. Anytime you manufacture a product you want to make sure the product is going to be well received. You do that by testing the product once it is made to ensure it is satisfactory. Henry's standards, by the way, are siginificantly higher than most others', and he wants to ensure we get a good light. 

We wouldn't all have repeatedly reviewed this thread and thrown down lots of money if we were not very impressed with Henry's previous work. 

So . . . enjoy the lights, they were the result of a lot of brilliant engineering and meticulous manufacturing.


----------



## Zenster (Nov 6, 2008)

Dadof6 said:


> That is correct. (I think Henry still personally refers to them that way) I believe they will be the 140c (formerly 100C) lights that will be shipping since that was the initial batch done. Henry also said it is possible for the prototypes to ship this week too.


 
What's the difference between the "initial batch" and the "prototypes"?

I thought prototypes typically referred to "pre-production" or "experimental" products, and I didn't know that anyone had ordered a "prototype". 
I thought we all ordered "production" lights, not experimental prototypes.


----------



## karlthev (Nov 6, 2008)

The "prototypes"--as least as I understand it (I do hope I understand it, I bought one!)--were/are representatives of an intermediate design--one using different software and hardware configuration. These are working lights which depict a progression history of the anticipated Ra clickey final design. I bought one (not yet received) more for collector status than user although I'll have to see how it turns out when I get it. Like the final Ra clickey, other than introduction beta testers (I presume), no one has this light. I'll have to see what both of these fine lights will be like when I get them. On paper, many things appear different that what they are in reality. 


Karl


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## m16a (Nov 6, 2008)

With all this new news, including the long awaited PDFs and the proclamation from dadof6, the clicky now feels so close! I can almost feel it in my hand!!!:twothumbs


----------



## SaturnNyne (Nov 6, 2008)

Dadof6 said:


> I assume shipping to retailers.


No need for assumption, my previous answer was phrased as definite because it is. Sorry if that's a dash to any entertained hopes that they might be actually heading to end users today. 



karlthev said:


> The "prototypes"--as least as I understand it (I do hope I understand it, I bought one!)--were/are representatives of an intermediate design--one using different software and hardware configuration.


The hardware is different in that it's using a different body. The software is the same as the production Clicky. If you'd like, I could dig out everything I know about the proto (at least up to about the time they were announced for sale), but you can probably piece most of it together just from posts in this thread.



m16a said:


> With all this new news, including the long awaited PDFs and the proclamation from dadof6, the clicky now feels so close! I can almost feel it in my hand!!!:twothumbs


This must be especially exciting for you, Jeff tells me you've worked harder than any of us to get this light. Good on you for being so patient, almost there! :thumbsup:


----------



## m16a (Nov 6, 2008)

SaturnNyne said:


> This must be especially exciting for you, Jeff tells me you've worked harder than any of us to get this light. Good on you for being so patient, almost there! :thumbsup:




Normally I don't like being a superlative, but in this case I think I am. Since I'm on a minimum wage job and can't really work during the school year, I've had to save every penny(literally, I have a jar with about $22 in change) so it has been a long hard wait for me because I've had to raise the money AND Jeff has constantly tortured me with all the wonderful features( this is going to be my first HDS light) I am indeed looking very much forward to it, you have no idea how exciting it is:twothumbs


----------



## FredericoFreire (Nov 6, 2008)

SnWnMe said:


> Yes let's just all be patient. Flaming HDS or the man behind it will only result in getting this thread locked.
> 
> I am sure that Henry will like nothing more than the Clicky to ship. After all, the longer it is delayed the longer he has to wait for his MONEY right?
> 
> So anyway, going back to technical discussion, who here thinks said Clicky is about 0.25" too long?



The picture (from a fellow CPF'er) shows the difference between the HDS EDC and the Ra Twisty.

The HDS it 82mm (3.2") long x 89mm (3.5") for the Ra Twisty. Than the Ra Clicky will be even bigger, with its 95mm (3.75").

The Clicky is too long for me.


----------



## luxlover (Nov 6, 2008)

Dadof6 said:


> Just one last response. Henry is a dedicated guy. Anytime you manufacture a product you want to make sure the product is going to be well received. You do that by testing the product once it is made to ensure it is satisfactory. Henry's standards, by the way, are siginificantly higher than most others', and he wants to ensure we get a good light.
> 
> We wouldn't all have repeatedly reviewed this thread and thrown down lots of money if we were not very impressed with Henry's previous work.
> 
> So . . . enjoy the lights, they were the result of a lot of brilliant engineering and meticulous manufacturing.


*AMEN!


*


----------



## luxlover (Nov 6, 2008)

m16a said:


> With all this new news, including the long awaited PDFs and the proclamation from dadof6, the clicky now feels so close! I can almost feel it in my hand!!!:twothumbs


That is only your Smart PD D10, with a sprinkle of wishful thinking and a dash of hallucination! :nana:


----------



## luxlover (Nov 6, 2008)

m16a said:


> Normally I don't like being a superlative, but in this case I think I am. Since I'm on a minimum wage job and can't really work during the school year, I've had to save every penny (literally, I have a jar with about $22 in change). So it has been a long hard wait for me, because I've had to raise the money AND Jeff has constantly tortured me with all the wonderful features (this is going to be my first HDS light). I am indeed looking very much forward to it, you have no idea how exciting it is. :twothumbs


Torture is such a negative word. Try a fantabulous EDC demonstration and a little arm twisting!  Dad was the hard sell.....


----------



## luxlover (Nov 6, 2008)

FredericoFreire said:


> The picture (from a fellow CPF'er) shows the difference between the HDS EDC and the Ra Twisty.
> 
> The HDS it 82mm (3.2") long x 89mm (3.5") for the Ra Twisty. Than the Ra Clicky will be even bigger, with its 95mm (3.75").
> 
> The Clicky is too long for me.


Fred,
Where have you been hiding? Don't make any hasty decisions. I bet that you will change your mind when you see all of us with OUR toys.

Jeff


----------



## karlthev (Nov 6, 2008)

"The hardware is different in that it's using a different body. The software is the same as the production Clicky. If you'd like, I could dig out everything I know about the proto (at least up to about the time they were announced for sale), but you can probably piece most of it together just from posts in this thread."
SN

Sure, dig it up for me! Thanks!:twothumbs


Karl


----------



## cabbynate (Nov 6, 2008)

m16a said:


> Normally I don't like being a superlative, but in this case I think I am. Since I'm on a minimum wage job and can't really work during the school year, I've had to save every penny(literally, I have a jar with about $22 in change) so it has been a long hard wait for me because I've had to raise the money AND Jeff has constantly tortured me with all the wonderful features( this is going to be my first HDS light) I am indeed looking very much forward to it, you have no idea how exciting it is:twothumbs


 HDS/Ra lights are like no other. The quality and materials are military grade. They just scream "I will get the job done no matter what". Kinda like a Glock 17.(If ya no handguns)


----------



## luxlover (Nov 6, 2008)

cabbynate said:


> HDS/Ra lights are like no other. The quality and materials are military grade. They just scream "I will get the job done no matter what". Kinda like a Glock 17.(If ya no handguns)


Cabby,
I like your Rambo interpretation of Henry's lights. I never thought of myself as a commando when holding his light in my hand. But from now on, I will do just that.

Time to complete my mission specific task with my Twisty.....get my mail! 

Jeff


----------



## karlthev (Nov 6, 2008)

WM


----------



## cabbynate (Nov 6, 2008)

luxlover said:


> Cabby,
> I like your Rambo interpretation of Henry's lights. I never thought of myself as a commando when holding his light in my hand. But from now on, I will do just that.
> 
> Time to complete my mission specific task with my Twisty.....get my mail!
> ...


 If you seen the way I enter a dark room Glock and HDS B60LE in hand you would get it. HDS/Glock 26= two pieces of equipment I will stake my life on any day. I don't say that about much.........


----------



## luxlover (Nov 6, 2008)

Henry is up to no good! He has something up his sleeve!  

Included in his three levels/lumens tables in the Customization Guide, is a set of rows with 170lm as the top level. Could there be a 170lm/120lm burst mode light being offered in the near future? :thinking:


----------



## luxlover (Nov 6, 2008)

cabbynate said:


> If you seen the way I enter a dark room Glock and HDS B60LE in hand you would get it. HDS/Glock 26= two pieces of equipment I will stake my life on any day. I don't say that about much.........


Well stated! I can only attest to the integrity of the light. NYS is a gun control state.


----------



## m16a (Nov 6, 2008)

cabbynate said:


> HDS/Ra lights are like no other. The quality and materials are military grade. They just scream "I will get the job done no matter what". Kinda like a Glock 17.(If ya no handguns)



I've seen em, believe me I know that. What a high comparison being compared to a Glock 17. What a great gun:twothumbs


----------



## Enzo Morocioli (Nov 6, 2008)

luxlover said:


> Henry is up to no good! He has something up his sleeve!
> 
> Included in his three levels/lumens tables in the Customization Guide, is a set of rows with 170lm as the top level. Could there be a 170lm/120lm burst mode light being offered in the near future? :thinking:



... Nothing up his sleeve. It makes sense that there will be 170's a little later. The LED batches couldn't yield enough Plus emitters to satiate our thirst for them. I'll venture to say that _very slowly_ and _after plenty of time_ Henry may put for sale the 170's he has found. This way the customization manual does not need to be rewritten. 

Much like how the 120Tw turned out. Extremely limited, costs a bit more, released a little later.

That's my hazarded guess. Add a pinch of salt, to taste.


----------



## karlthev (Nov 6, 2008)

EM......yup




Karl


----------



## tebore (Nov 6, 2008)

luxlover said:


> Henry is up to no good! He has something up his sleeve!
> 
> Included in his three levels/lumens tables in the Customization Guide, is a set of rows with 170lm as the top level. Could there be a 170lm/120lm burst mode light being offered in the near future? :thinking:



Or it'll be like the U85s. Only a small handful ever get made, they are like hens' teeth.


----------



## karlthev (Nov 6, 2008)

SN....got it! Thanks!:twothumbs



Karl


----------



## cabbynate (Nov 6, 2008)

luxlover said:


> Well stated! I can only attest to the integrity of the light. NYS is a gun control state.


Ever think about movin?


----------



## shae (Nov 6, 2008)

SaturnNyne said:


> Automatic Button Lock has become just Button Lock!


 Good stuff! Thanks for pointing that out, Saturn.


----------



## LLCoolBeans (Nov 6, 2008)

cabbynate said:


> Ever think about movin?



Yea, really. We'll take you. We love NY transplants that don't want to move in and change our laws.

I should probably add something about clickys so this is not off topic...
We like Ra Clickys here in AZ too.


----------



## thermal guy (Nov 6, 2008)

luxlover said:


> Fred,
> Where have you been hiding? Don't make any hasty decisions. I bet that you will change your mind when you see all of us with OUR toys.
> 
> Jeff



Put a bezel ring on a stock Old model hds light and it is almost the same length as the twisty.And i think that is a great size.


----------



## thermal guy (Nov 6, 2008)

cabbynate said:


> Ever think about movin?


----------



## FredericoFreire (Nov 6, 2008)

thermal guy said:


> Put a bezel ring on a stock Old model hds light and it is almost the same length as the twisty.And i think that is a great size.



That's why I have a Ti bezel ring but never use it. I EDC my HDS with the stock bezel ring.

Since the Protos comes with a scaloped bezel ring, I asked Henry if the old style thin ring fits the Protos, and he said that it has a different thread. :thumbsdow


----------



## luxlover (Nov 7, 2008)

cabbynate said:


> Ever think about movin?


If I need to shoot somebody, I will move to the closest state where one can carry a gun, concealed or open.....PA. So far, no victims in mind. I am kind of tired of moving anyway.....
> NYC 1952 - 1978
> Los Angeles 1978 - 1994
> NYC 1994 - present

I had enough of the grind. I will just deal with the situation and always carry my pea shooter and spitball shooter for personal protection. It's a jungle out there!


----------



## luxlover (Nov 7, 2008)

thermal guy said:


> Put a bezel ring on a stock old model HDS light, and it is almost the same length as the Twisty. I think that it is a great size.


I recently bought a B42XRGT with a Seoul P4 emitter, a Peu SS lens ring w/3 tritium vials and I love the size ~ 3.387" long. (86mm) The Clicky will be another 3/16" long, but I am sure that I will get used to that length.

Jeff


----------



## tebore (Nov 7, 2008)

FredericoFreire said:


> That's why I have a Ti bezel ring but never use it. I EDC my HDS with the stock bezel ring.
> 
> Since the Protos comes with a scaloped bezel ring, I asked Henry if the old style thin ring fits the Protos, and he said that it has a different thread. :thumbsdow



You might want to rethink not using that Ti Bezel. The Stock bezel provides no protection and is very easily dented. 

The protection that Ti Bezel offers is worth the trade off in length.


----------



## toby_pra (Nov 7, 2008)

luxlover said:


> I recently bought a B42XRGT with a Seoul P4 emitter, a Peu SS lens ring w/3 tritium vials and I love the size ~ 3.387" long. (86mm) The Clicky will be another 3/16" long, but I am sure that I will get used to that length.
> 
> Jeff


 
I am sure you will! :twothumbs


----------



## cabbynate (Nov 7, 2008)

luxlover said:


> I recently bought a B42XRGT with a Seoul P4 emitter, a Peu SS lens ring w/3 tritium vials and I love the size ~ 3.387" long. (86mm) The Clicky will be another 3/16" long, but I am sure that I will get used to that length.
> 
> Jeff


 I have B60LE set up with a Seoul P4 emitter and I love that light. Can't wight to see the Clicky. I holster my lights at work so the extra 3/16" won't make a diff for me.:thumbsup:


----------



## m16a (Nov 7, 2008)

cabbynate said:


> I have B60LE set up with a Seoul P4 emitter and I love that light. Can't wight to see the Clicky. I holster my lights at work so the extra 3/16" won't make a diff for me.:thumbsup:



What holster do you have that the clicky would fit in?? If you have one, please share there link, because that would be a dream come true for me!


Aside from actually having the clicky of course :nana:


----------



## karlthev (Nov 7, 2008)

I'll but in and say that I have a few Rip Off pouches which work and one of my HDSs is in a balistic cloth Swiss Army knife pouch which is the toughest keeper of all. I forget where I got the last pouch--I think through a 
web-based knife location as I remember....I don't use clips on my lights--at least they are not used to attach any of my lights to me or my clothing...



Karl


----------



## NoFair (Nov 7, 2008)

tebore said:


> You might want to rethink not using that Ti Bezel. The Stock bezel provides no protection and is very easily dented.
> 
> The protection that Ti Bezel offers is worth the trade off in length.


 
My stock bezel ring deformed pretty badly after a fall. It was a pita getting it out too

I'm now using a stainless steel ring, but a slightly smaller one would be better.. 

Sverre

PS! still on the fence on the clickie since the only thing I don't love about my HDS is the size.. Slimmer would be better..


----------



## cabbynate (Nov 7, 2008)

m16a said:


> What holster do you have that the clicky would fit in?? If you have one, please share there link, because that would be a dream come true for me!
> 
> 
> Aside from actually having the clicky of course :nana:


 
I'm willing to bet this will work just fine...

http://www.surefire.com/V82-Quick-Detach-Holster

This is what I use for the HDS EDC's and Novatacs and Ra Twisty.
http://www.lighthound.com//AW-Nylon-Holster-for-NovaTac-EDC-Flashlights_p_8-113.html


----------



## m16a (Nov 7, 2008)

cabbynate said:


> I'm willing to bet this will work just fine...
> 
> http://www.surefire.com/V82-Quick-Detach-Holster
> 
> ...



Dang neither of those have d-rings attached. Thats what I really need on the holster.. Hmmm..


----------



## SolarFlare (Nov 7, 2008)

The light on the left here I reckon is 1mm longer than the clicky.







Here it is snugly inside a Triple Aught Design holster, perfect fit really. 






The TAD gear holster is horizontal belt carry, or vertical strap, excellent mid chest on a fat boy, or on a rucksack shoulder strap.


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## HoopleHead (Nov 7, 2008)

m16a said:


> Dang neither of those have d-rings attached. Thats what I really need on the holster.. Hmmm..


 

do you specifically need a d-ring? or just something to attach a lanyard to or something? you could maybe add on an extra loop of paracord (or clove hitch it around your belt with a split ring attached etc), and treat that as the d-ring...


----------



## m16a (Nov 7, 2008)

HoopleHead said:


> do you specifically need a d-ring? or just something to attach a lanyard to or something? you could maybe add on an extra loop of paracord (or clove hitch it around your belt with a split ring attached etc), and treat that as the d-ring...



I specifically like using a d-ring to attach to a carabiner and attach THAT to my front belt loop. I have no access to paracord and even if I did, I would have NO idea how to fashion it into a workable construct for what I need.


EDIT: I do have some paracord I received with my ND10. Would someone know how to fashion a d-ring like object with it?


----------



## ChocolateLab33 (Nov 7, 2008)

So, have these _actually_ shipped?  Can we get some confirmation please?


----------



## senna94 (Nov 7, 2008)

ChocolateLab33 said:


> So, have these _actually_ shipped?  Can we get some confirmation please?



Confirmation????? A speculation would be good at this point!! LOL!!!


----------



## LLCoolBeans (Nov 7, 2008)

senna94 said:


> Confirmation????? A speculation would be good at this point!! LOL!!!



Well, if we are speculating, then I'm guessing the first batch has shipped to the retailers. 

The official Clicky page (http://www.ralights.com/?id=Clicky) used to say something like: "Available in October 2008" now says: "The Ra Clicky flashlight is available in the following models:"


----------



## luxlover (Nov 7, 2008)

cabbynate said:


> I have B60LE set up with a Seoul P4 emitter and I love that light. Can't wight to see the Clicky. I holster my lights at work so the extra 3/16" won't make a diff for me.:thumbsup:


Good attitude. Why disregard the excellent merits of a light, just because it is a little longer than your "typical" ones? If everybody does know this by now, the Clicky is anything BUT a "typical" light!! 
Jeff


----------



## luxlover (Nov 7, 2008)

♦


NoFair said:


> My stock bezel ring deformed pretty badly after a fall. It was a pita getting it out, too.
> 
> I'm now using a stainless steel ring, but a slightly smaller one would be better..
> 
> ...


Sverre,
I think that using some kind of SS or Ti lens ring instead of the stock one is an excellent idea.....unless you have 1/8" wall thick rubber sleeves at the front and rear end of a light, like on my three Henry lights.

Jeff
P.S.: I will tell Henry to place his future lights on a strict _low capacity_ diet!!!


----------



## souptree (Nov 7, 2008)

The idea that an extra 3/16" is a deal breaker to anyone seems a bit preposterous to me, but hey, that is the beauty of the free market. Everyone gets to decide what their deal breakers are for themselves.


----------



## HoopleHead (Nov 7, 2008)

yep. i would be more concerned about a bigger diameter than a bit longer length. it really is just like a twisty with a bit extra for the clicky, those extra parts gotta go somewhere...

really all this means is that when we want a 2nd one, there will be more supply available


----------



## tricker (Nov 7, 2008)

Ok......so i was bored today and went through some of the "dead threads" on here, I found this one and thought it might give all of us some hope and encouragement as our patience is tested.....just read the last part, as the rest is water under the bridge

https://www.candlepowerforums.com/posts/585103&postcount=86


----------



## luxlover (Nov 7, 2008)

tricker said:


> Ok......so i was bored today and went through some of the "dead threads" on here, I found this one and thought it might give all of us some hope and encouragement as our patience is tested.....just read the last part, as the rest is water under the bridge.
> https://www.candlepowerforums.com/posts/585103&postcount=86


Great example of why Henry MUST take his time before shipping his lights.


----------



## brucec (Nov 7, 2008)

But thoroughly testing a few prototypes for fundamental design flaws is MUCH different than being ready for production. After all, there were quite a few complaints of inconsistent spacing, misaligned emitters, even dust, hair, and fingerprints on the RA Twisty. I'm not saying that the clicky will have these problems, but just that production quality is not a one-man job and is quite different than testing one or two prototypes for design issues.



tricker said:


> Ok......so i was bored today and went through some of the "dead threads" on here, I found this one and thought it might give all of us some hope and encouragement as our patience is tested.....just read the last part, as the rest is water under the bridge
> 
> https://www.candlepowerforums.com/posts/585103&postcount=86


----------



## toby_pra (Nov 8, 2008)

brucec said:


> But thoroughly testing a few prototypes for fundamental design flaws is MUCH different than being ready for production. After all, there were quite a few complaints of inconsistent spacing, misaligned emitters, even dust, hair, and fingerprints on the RA Twisty. I'm not saying that the clicky will have these problems, but just that production quality is not a one-man job and is quite different than testing one or two prototypes for design issues.


 
+1


----------



## thermal guy (Nov 8, 2008)

Do we know what the clip looks like yet?


----------



## tricker (Nov 8, 2008)

brucec said:


> But thoroughly testing a few prototypes for fundamental design flaws is MUCH different than being ready for production. After all, there were quite a few complaints of inconsistent spacing, misaligned emitters, even dust, hair, and fingerprints on the RA Twisty. I'm not saying that the clicky will have these problems, but just that production quality is not a one-man job and is quite different than testing one or two prototypes for design issues.



i think those issues have more to do with being ready to ship, than being ready to produce since you wana go there


----------



## NoFair (Nov 8, 2008)

luxlover said:


> ♦Sverre,
> I think that using some kind of SS or Ti lens ring instead of the stock one is an excellent idea.....unless you have 1/8" wall thick rubber sleeves at the front and rear end of a light, like on my three Henry lights.
> 
> Jeff
> P.S.: I will tell Henry to place his future lights on a strict _low capacity_ diet!!!


 
Please do Jeff 

It is a bit on the fat side when wearing lighter clothing or when dressed up..

PS! Rubber on the lights... tsk tsk... no character marks that way. 

Mine has a small ding from when my daughter tossed it in the fireplace, dented front end from hitting concrete and numerous small marks I don't remember the cause of


----------



## luxlover (Nov 8, 2008)

NoFair said:


> Please do Jeff
> 
> It is a bit on the fat side when wearing lighter clothing or when dressed up..
> 
> ...


Are you ashamed of your HDS light, trying to conceal it in a pocket? Tsk...tsk! 

The use of cold shrink sleeving to protect the lights against a front or rear impact do not represent the typical flashaholic "fashion statement." Indeed, the innate beauty is lost, and the lights will show no sign of use and/or abuse! I enjoy looking at my lights as they were intended, in their birthday suits! 

It sounds to me like your little princess may become a pre-juvenile delinquent, with her fireplace tossing inclinations. I can only imagine the damage to the fireplace, incured by that little slugger of a light! :sigh:

Jeff


----------



## brucec (Nov 9, 2008)

tricker said:


> i think those issues have more to do with being ready to ship, than being ready to produce since you wana go there



Yes, but many on this board have stated that they think this delay will result is a more bug-free, better tested product. Personally, I don't this is what is causing the delay and I don't think the extra time is being used for this. I believe this is a mundane supply chain issue or organizational issue. And I hope for everyone's sake that debugging is not what is going on now, because that means a very long wait indeed.


----------



## Robertesq1 (Nov 9, 2008)

So sad 

I waited and waited and finally pulled the trigger on a 170 lumens RA Clicky and pretty much a week later I was told that my order at Battery station was automatically changed to a 140 Lumens model that was $229. Not really sure I want to spend that when a 120 lumens Novetak is $99. Has anyone called them and cancelled??? is it pain free??


----------



## grateful1 (Nov 9, 2008)

Robertesq1 said:


> So sad
> 
> I waited and waited and finally pulled the trigger on a 170 lumens RA Clicky and pretty much a week later I was told that my order at Battery station was automatically changed to a 140 Lumens model that was $229. Not really sure I want to spend that when a 120 lumens Novetak is $99. Has anyone called them and cancelled??? is it pain free??



The same happened with me...and this will be my first light beyond a mag. 

What are the major differences between the two?


----------



## seery (Nov 9, 2008)

Robertesq1 said:


> So sad
> 
> Has anyone called them and cancelled??? is it pain free??


I held the #1 and #2 pre-paid slots for Ra Clicky's with Unique Titanium and
cancelled both of them.

Russ handled the refunds fast and professionally. My guess is you would find
it just as easy with Battery Station.

Can't hurt to give them a call and find out. :twothumbs


----------



## Robertesq1 (Nov 9, 2008)

grateful1 said:


> The same happened with me...and this will be my first light beyond a mag.
> 
> What are the major differences between the two?



Well if you don't want all the fancy programmable settings and just want a whoop azz pocket light that operated on a single 123 battery, I guess its just the initial 10 second burst on the clicky is 20n lumens brighter. 

I don't post often and am not an expert, but the difference seems very minor and does not justiy a 130% increase in cost. YMMV but I am not a collector....

Unless my feelings do a 180, I will be canceling my order in the am....


----------



## SaturnNyne (Nov 9, 2008)

grateful1 said:


> What are the major differences between the two?


Aside from the obvious slight differences of burst and output and efficiency, a lot of the differences are in the subtle details. The NT tends to flicker under certain circumstances at low levels, the Ra won't. The Ra is calibrated precisely at every level, the NT isn't. The Ra should have ruler flat regulation, the NT... comes close enough. The Ra is a bit longer due to internal springs that protect the battery from hard impacts, this makes it tougher and more comfortable to grip for some. The NT is shorter, making it more pocketable for some. The Ra uses a glass lens protected by a thick steel bezel and rubber rings, the NT solves the problem by using a plastic lens, which works fine but is more prone to scratching. The Ra will probably have a better tint, even if you don't spring for the GT option. The Narrow beam Ra will out-throw the NT at the same output, the Wide beam will probably throw about the same. That's about all that comes to me off the top of my head. Then you have the issue of the company behind the lights. The Ra is made and backed (seriously, if something goes wrong, he's got your back) by Henry, a long time friend of ours and a good guy. NT is a little on the shady side, and that's the reason I won't be buying anything else from them, even though I like my 120P and use it more than just about anything.

I think it really comes down to personal preference and at what point you're satisfied. If you can find an NT for under $100 and it satisfies you completely, go for it, you just saved a lot of money. If quirky little problems bother you, you might want to consider stepping up to a Ra. The subtle improvements of the Clicky are worth the somewhat staggering price to me, but I realize there are a lot of flashaholics on a budget who want an advanced light and wouldn't really benefit from and be able to justify the cost of the extra refinement. Though I don't personally like them, it's kind of nice to have another company offering a similar light made to a cheaper standard.

Anyone have anything else to add?


----------



## karlthev (Nov 10, 2008)

SN, I think you've got it covered. I have a NT 120 Beta which does flicker a bit at times though not more than a minor distraction. I do feel that the HDS was better built than the NT and that the Ra will continue with that trend. I guess my only preference for the NT was the more simplistic (fewer clicks) menu but, that being said, I rarely change the programming on my lights tending to be more of the set it and forget it type. I will defer to Henry in terms of his reliabilty and stand behind his product position every time however.


Karl


----------



## Dadof6 (Nov 10, 2008)

I take exception to the slight on Novatac that they are shady. I have dealt with Novatac and they have always been above board. They put out a great product and they do it for a great price. I have two Ra's on order because I love the quality, but don't slight Novatac and accuse them of being shady, there is nothing to justify it.


----------



## karlthev (Nov 10, 2008)

A good point. I personally have not had any negative activity with NovaTac. I have dealt exclusivelt with Jim Schecter however and I know he is no longer with NT but again, I have not had questionable activity with them. I think I did read a post where they (NT) had moved at some point and tails/switches which were having isssues were returned to the senders....or am I wrong....?



Karl


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## Dadof6 (Nov 10, 2008)

I don't know about faulty switches, but if they had problems and they fixed them they would not be shady.


----------



## SnWnMe (Nov 10, 2008)

SaturnNyne said:


> The Ra is calibrated precisely at every level, the NT isn't.


And Saturn has a broad sampling of tests of each light to prove this of course.



> The Ra should have ruler flat regulation, the NT... comes close enough.


I didn't know that we can put forward our predictions about an unreleased product in order ground our arguments.



> The Ra is a bit longer due to internal springs that protect the battery from hard impacts, this makes it tougher and more comfortable to grip for some. The NT is shorter, making it more pocketable for some.


Or it makes economic sense to have as much parts commonality as the Twisty as possible. 


> The Ra uses a breakable glass lens protected by a thick steel bezel and rubber rings, the NT solves the problem by using a plastic lens, which works fine but is more prone to scratching.


Fixed it for you.



> The Ra will probably have a better tint, even if you don't spring for the GT option. The Narrow beam Ra will out-throw the NT at the same output, the Wide beam will probably throw about the same


Presenting predictions as fact.



> Then you have the issue of the company behind the lights. The Ra is made and backed (seriously, if something goes wrong, he's got your back) by Henry, a long time friend of ours and a good guy. NT is a little on the shady side, and that's the reason I won't be buying anything else from them, even though I like my 120P and use it more than just about anything.


Hey I'm a HDS fan too but I have to speak up for Novatac here. IME they are good ppl. They can't please everyone anymore that HDS can't please everyone.




> I think it really comes down to personal preference and at what point you're satisfied. If you can find an NT for under $100 and it satisfies you completely, go for it, you just saved a lot of money. If quirky little problems bother you, you might want to consider stepping up to a Ra.


See? There you go. DSFDS! :twothumbs


----------



## karlthev (Nov 10, 2008)

I like my NT....maybe I forgot to say that....



Karl


----------



## grateful1 (Nov 10, 2008)

In speaking with a friend and reading about the comparisons....my order stand! :twothumbs
Thanks!


----------



## Dead_Nuts (Nov 10, 2008)

What's that noise? Could it be the sound of Clicky's in the mail?


----------



## luxlover (Nov 10, 2008)

Saturn,
Do you see how SnWnMe is muscling into your long post territory in post #269? Somebody.....get a rope! 

Jeff


----------



## luxlover (Nov 10, 2008)

Dead_Nuts said:


> What's that noise? Could it be the sound of Clicky's in the mail?


Holy headlights! I can hear it too! Can anybody else hear it?


----------



## Enzo Morocioli (Nov 10, 2008)

Dead_Nuts said:


> What's that noise? Could it be the sound of Clicky's in the mail?



*listens carefully*

..... It better not be Santa Clause.


----------



## LLCoolBeans (Nov 10, 2008)

I had a NT 120P for a couple of months before the Twisty came out. I found the Twisty to be far superior, even though I prefer the single button UI. I sold the NT and never looked back.

NT is now officially a California business, NT's are no longer made in my home town, which diminishes my fondness for them even more.

On the positive side, my 120P was the best EDC sized flashlight I had ever owned, until the Twisty became available.

I found the NT to be fine for general and tactical use, but it was lousy for walking the dogs at night. The wide beam pattern was not ideal for that use, but my main problem was that the NT would kick into thermal protection after only 5 minutes or so of constant use. The Twisty although not great for tactical use, excels in every other category. I can walk the dogs for 45+ minutes with no change in output, plus the narrow beam is a huge help in identifying obstacles or approaching pedestrians/cyclists.


----------



## paxxus (Nov 10, 2008)

Dead_Nuts said:


> What's that noise? Could it be the sound of Clicky's in the mail?


Hmm, can't hear anything - I have seen no notification from the dealer I ordered from (UT) that shipping should be imminent.

:sleepy:


----------



## luxlover (Nov 10, 2008)

SaturnNyne said:


> Aside from the obvious slight differences of burst and output and efficiency, a lot of the differences are in the subtle details. The NT tends to flicker under certain circumstances at low levels, the Ra won't. The Ra is calibrated precisely at every level, the NT isn't. The Ra should have ruler flat regulation, the NT... comes close enough. The Ra is a bit longer due to internal springs that protect the battery from hard impacts, this makes it tougher and more comfortable to grip for some. The NT is shorter, making it more pocketable for some. The Ra uses a glass lens protected by a thick steel bezel and rubber rings, the NT solves the problem by using a plastic lens, which works fine but is more prone to scratching. The Ra will probably have a better tint, even if you don't spring for the GT option. The Narrow beam Ra will out-throw the NT at the same output, the Wide beam will probably throw about the same. That's about all that comes to me off the top of my head. Then you have the issue of the company behind the lights. The Ra is made and backed (seriously, if something goes wrong, he's got your back) by Henry, a long time friend of ours and a good guy. NT is a little on the shady side, and that's the reason I won't be buying anything else from them, even though I like my 120P and use it more than just about anything.
> 
> I think it really comes down to personal preference and at what point you're satisfied. If you can find an NT for under $100 and it satisfies you completely, go for it, you just saved a lot of money. If quirky little problems bother you, you might want to consider stepping up to a Ra. The subtle improvements of the Clicky are worth the somewhat staggering price to me, but I realize there are a lot of flashaholics on a budget who want an advanced light and wouldn't really benefit from and be able to justify the cost of the extra refinement. Though I don't personally like them, it's kind of nice to have another company offering a similar light made to a cheaper standard.
> 
> Anyone have anything else to add?


*I most certainly have a lot to add, Saturn. I have held in my feelings for too long. Now that I am back to posting in support of Henry, it is time to spill the beans:*

Your explanations above, which are on a technical level, are all true. I also have a light made by NovaTac. I have had no problems with it on any front. It was also my EDC for about nine months, until the Twisty arrived. But ever since I bought it in August 2007, a lot of bad news has come to the surface about the business ethic, or should I say lack of business ethic, of NovaTac. These are the reasons why I would neither support that company on CPF, nor buy their lights nor recommend them to others:

1. Just after NovaTac bought HDS Systems and hired Henry, I had a problem with my second U60 light. I called Joe Mintz, President of NovaTac, and was offered a reduced price NovaTac light when they were released, this transaction being between Joe and I. When the lights were released about nine months later, I called him and was told that he would NOT honor his promise. In fact, he had never replied to any of my emails or phone messages in that nine month span. To this day, Joe has not kept his promise!

2. During the year that Henry worked for Joe Mintz (May 1, 2006 to May 1, 2007), his creativity had been curtailed so that Joe could make a bundle on three series of lights that are far inferior to Henry's EDC models. Corners were cut to increase the "bottom line", and Henry could not exist under these conditions. He resigned, knowing that he would have to start a new company, which is currently HDS Lights (dba Ra Lights).

3. As part of Joe's offer to buy HDS Systems, all of it's parts, lights and calibration devices, he promised to honor HDS's lifetime warranty. About a year later, he claimed that all the parts that Henry sold to him as part of the buy-out, had been depleted, and the warranty could no longer be honored. He went so far as to offer a "meager" discount on his lights, in exchange for defective HDS lights.

4. Just about that time, we discovered that Joe was having assorted HDS parts sold on the website of an internet merchant, who was also a NovaTac dealer. But didn't he claim that he didn't have any HDS parts! How could this be? Needing replacement parts, EDC light owners had to buy parts for lights that were supposed to be warrantied for life.

5. When Henry found out about Joe's breach of contract regarding warranty service, he did a wonderful thing. He offered to honor the lifetime warranty service on EDC lights, even though he was no longer legally required to do so. the home page of his website states this fact, in black and white.

6. About nine months ago, Joe, whose NovaTac corporate office is in Carlsbad CA, walked into his Tucson Arizona facility and without any warning summarily fired every employee there, closing down the location. He cited the high cost of maintaining that manufacturing/warranty service facility, as the reason for abruptly ending the livelihood of six or seven people. There was no severence pay, as far as I know. Nice guy, huh?

*Does anybody still want to buy a $99 programmable light from NovaTac, after hearing how unethically they have been conducting business?*

To those still unsure of the Clicky.....if at all possible, cash in loose change, work OT, find a way to buy a Clicky and be done with it.

There is a thread on CPF, demonstrating pictorially, that Novatac has elected to make their lights inferior to the original design. Maybe that is why they have come down from $189 to $99? If I can find it, I will edit this post.
 
*DO NOT SUPPORT NOVATAC IN ANY WAY, EVEN THOUGH YOU WILL BE SAVING $100 BY DOING SO!*

Henry _still_ makes the best lights available to the consumer market. Keep on truckin', Hank!

Jeff


----------



## karlthev (Nov 10, 2008)

:shakehead


----------



## luxlover (Nov 10, 2008)

I see a pattern emerging! Whenever karlthev disagrees with a poster's opinion, which in this case is a series of facts of which he has been aware for as long as I have, his brain freezes up and all he can do is shake his head via this graemlin. :shakehead Poor karl! "Spress yo'self karl! Tell everybody what you know!

Jeff
Bearer of truth


----------



## luxlover (Nov 10, 2008)

paxxus said:


> Hmm, can't hear anything - I have seen no notification from the dealer I ordered from (UT) that shipping should be imminent.
> 
> :sleepy:


I highly suggest that you listen more carefully later this afternoon. Keep in mind that Tucson AZ is in the Mountain Standard Time Zone or -0600 GMT.


----------



## karlthev (Nov 10, 2008)

luxlover said:


> I see a pattern emerging! Whenever karlthev disagrees with a poster's opinion, which in this case is a series of facts of which he has been aware for as long as I have, his brain freezes up and all he can do is shake his head via this graemlin. :shakehead Poor karl! "Spress yo'self karl! Tell everybody what you know!
> 
> Jeff
> Bearer of truth




Always remember, Less is more.


----------



## luxlover (Nov 10, 2008)

karlthev said:


> Less is more.


More or less.....whatever it takes to get the job done is the right amount. Don't you agree?


----------



## karlthev (Nov 10, 2008)

No, less *is* more--except when flashlights are the topic.


----------



## luxlover (Nov 10, 2008)

The User's Guide was updated yesterday..... Users Guide


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## luxlover (Nov 10, 2008)

karlthev said:


> No, less *is* more--except when flashlights are the topic.


So who is broke? That is a bad place to be when flashlights are the topic! :thinking:


----------



## karlthev (Nov 10, 2008)

Not yet....but, in progress....:shrug:


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## karlthev (Nov 10, 2008)

On this we agree...this light will be a keeper....


----------



## LLCoolBeans (Nov 10, 2008)

luxlover said:


> I highly suggest that you listen more carefully later this afternoon. Keep in mind that Tucson AZ is in the Mountain Standard Time Zone or -0600 GMT.



Correction, Mountain Time Zone - NO DST!

DOWN WITH DST!!!


----------



## luxlover (Nov 10, 2008)

karlthev said:


> Not yet....but, in progress....:shrug:


No kidding. Have you ever thought of selling any of your less expensive solid titanium lights? I forgot, the honeymoon with your lights never ends. Eternal bliss is so nice! True love knows no bounds.


----------



## luxlover (Nov 10, 2008)

karlthev said:


> On this we agree...this light will be a keeper....


A "keeper" is saying it mildly. We will pass it down through the generations.....for all of posterity.....for all of eternity. Of course, as the more efficient emitters become available, the owners will want to upgrade. It is a natural instinct!


----------



## luxlover (Nov 10, 2008)

LLCoolBeans said:


> Correction, Mountain Time Zone - NO DST!
> 
> DOWN WITH DST!!!


I am compelled to correct your correction, correctly.....MST = Mountain Standard Time. MDT = Mountain Daylight Saving Time. You are in MST....no DST applied.


----------



## LLCoolBeans (Nov 10, 2008)

luxlover said:


> I am compelled to correct your correction, correctly.....MST = Mountain Standard Time. MDT = Mountain Daylight Saving Time. You are in MST....no DST applied.



Thanks luxlover, I can always count on you to correct my corrections correctly.

Just wanted to be clear the we do not put up with that DST garbage here in AZ.


----------



## luxlover (Nov 10, 2008)

LLCoolBeans said:


> Thanks luxlover, I can always count on you to correct my corrections correctly.
> 
> Just wanted to be clear the we do not put up with that DST garbage here in AZ.


Thank you, but I had to refer to an AZ time zone webpage to make sure that I was correct.

Perish the thought, bud. You have until March 8, 2009 to be "DST garbage-free" in AZ. So enjoy your MST winter.


----------



## SnWnMe (Nov 10, 2008)

luxlover said:


> *I most certainly have a lot to add, Saturn. I have held in my feelings for too long. Now that I am back to posting in support of Henry, it is time to spill the beans:*
> 
> Your explanations above, which are on a technical level, are all true. I also have a light made by NovaTac. I have had no problems with it on any front. It was also my EDC for about nine months, until the Twisty arrived. But ever since I bought it in August 2007, a lot of bad news has come to the surface about the business ethic, or should I say lack of business ethic, of NovaTac. These are the reasons why I would neither support that company on CPF, nor buy their lights nor recommend them to others:
> 
> ...



And Chinese factories and other Asia based manufacturers are among the worst polluters in the world and yet you buy products made over there (your computer for example). You are contributing to the destruction of the earth . A far more serious issue than a trivial toy disguised as a flashlight. Do the right thing. Use only tin cans and lengths of string!


----------



## LLCoolBeans (Nov 10, 2008)

luxlover said:


> *I most certainly have a lot to add, Saturn. I have held in my feelings for too long. Now that I am back to posting in support of Henry, it is time to spill the beans:*
> 
> Your explanations above, which are on a technical level, are all true. I also have a light made by NovaTac. I have had no problems with it on any front. It was also my EDC for about nine months, until the Twisty arrived. But ever since I bought it in August 2007, a lot of bad news has come to the surface about the business ethic, or should I say lack of business ethic, of NovaTac. These are the reasons why I would neither support that company on CPF, nor buy their lights nor recommend them to others:
> 
> ...



Thanks for the intel Jeff, I was not aware of any of that.


----------



## gottawearshades (Nov 10, 2008)

Can't we all just get along?

I hope we have Clickies in hand soon, so we can talk about actual flashlights instead.


----------



## luxlover (Nov 10, 2008)

SnWnMe said:


> And Chinese factories and other Asia based manufacturers are among the worst polluters in the world and yet you buy products made over there (your computer for example). You are contributing to the destruction of the earth . A far more serious issue than a trivial toy disguised as a flashlight. Do the right thing. Use only tin cans and lengths of string!


I already use soup cans attached by a string. I tried replacing flashlights with candles, but kept getting hot wax on my skin.

I get your point. But to avoid using our everyday products would make life almost unbearable. I listed NT's improprieties, because they have negatively affected our beloved hobby on a more direct and personal basis. All my points show total lack of integrity and respect for the entity that enriches them the most.....the consumer. The six incidents should make people run as fast as they can to any other light manufacturer, if Henry's lights do not appeal to them.

Jeff
like FoxNews....."fair and balanced."


----------



## luxlover (Nov 10, 2008)

gottawearshades said:


> Can't we all just get along?
> 
> I hope we have Clickies in hand soon, so we can talk about actual flashlights instead.


Yes we can get along. There is nothing to discuss about the Clicky. It has been all talked out. Maybe we should read the updated User's Guide and Customization Guide. This may prompt some productive discussion!

:twothumbs


----------



## m16a (Nov 10, 2008)

gottawearshades said:


> Can't we all just get along?
> 
> I hope we have Clickies in hand soon, so we can talk about actual flashlights instead.



I most heartily agree with that sentiment, shades. :thumbsup:


----------



## SnWnMe (Nov 10, 2008)

luxlover said:


> I already use soup cans attached by a string. I tried replacing flashlights with candles, but kept getting hot wax on my skin.
> 
> I get your point. But to avoid using our everyday products would make life almost unbearable. I listed NT's improprieties, because they have negatively affected our beloved hobby on a more direct and personal basis. All my points show total lack of integrity and respect for the entity that enriches them the most.....the consumer. The six incidents should make people run as fast as they can to any other light manufacturer, if Henry's lights do not appeal to them.
> 
> ...



Life without the earth will certainly be unbearable :naughty:

Cutting costs, controlling R&D, trying to stay in business longer... hmmm.. 
It demonstrates that Joe is a businessman in the business of making money. That may be seen as unethical from some perspectives. It certainly isn't wrong from all points of view. HDS seems to take a cost is no object approach to its products and there is nothing wrong with that either. 

Novatac wants a bigger market share, HDS wants a niche. The former needs to offer more product at a lower price and the latter needs to offer more product to justify the price. This wouldn't have degenerated into a flame war had we kept adjectives like "shady" out of comparing two similar products. I much rather compare their technical merits and describe to the curious, in objective terms, what separates Ras from all other comparable lights.


----------



## SaturnNyne (Nov 10, 2008)

Dadof6 said:


> I take exception to the slight on Novatac that they are shady. I have dealt with Novatac and they have always been above board. They put out a great product and they do it for a great price. I have two Ra's on order because I love the quality, but don't slight Novatac and accuse them of being shady, there is nothing to justify it.


I'm sorry you take offense. Please note that my post had nothing to do with customer dealings with them and I did not criticize their products. I have one too and it's one of my favorite lights. I simply pointed out that they're flawed, which is obvious fact. I understand their customer service is excellent, though unable to solve all problems. As for the company, what you think of them is a personal matter. I did not say you shouldn't continue to give them your business or that anyone else shouldn't. I simply said that I have made my own personal decision not to, and it is justified by what I know of their business practices, most of which I can't share and none of which should be discussed here.





SnWnMe said:


> And Saturn has a broad sampling of tests of each light to prove this of course.


I have Henry's own observations of his samples, which all match with what I've observed and what everyone else I've heard from has observed. I don't have a _tremendously_ broad sampling, but do you have even one example that you can prove contradicts me? If you do, I'd love to know more so I can add it to my data.



SnWnMe said:


> I didn't know that we can put forward our predictions about an unreleased product in order ground our arguments.


Notice that I said *should*. That's significant. What I meant was simply this: The HDS lights had completely flat regulation at everything except full power. The NT regulation tended to jump around a bit and looked more like a normal light. The Twisty regulation is back to being flat, though it seems to waver just slightly on full power. Based on that, it stands to reason that the Clicky will probably be as flat as the Twisty since it shares much of the componentry. Also, glancing quickly over my post, it looks like I forgot to point out that the difference in regulation is so subtle that it does not make any actual difference in use; I presented it as an example of a subtle detail improvement that's nice to know you have, but it only shows up when measured by machine. I did intend to add that in.

My statements were not grounds for an argument, they were nothing more than a listing of known facts mixed with reliable speculation for someone who asked. I answered a question, I'm sorry you don't like the answer.



SnWnMe said:


> Or it makes economic sense to have as much parts commonality as the Twisty as possible.


Well yes, obviously it does. But is there any reason not to have commonality? If economics sense was not an issue, would the Clicky be shorter, because it doesn't need to have the same springs as the Twisty, because it doesn't need to be as tough?



SnWnMe said:


> Fixed it for you.


Thank you. I suppose I should have worded that clearer rather than just leaving the obvious breakability implied, but I was just giving quick points. However, it could be said that lens breakage is an issue no matter what material is used. NT solved the problem by using a tougher material, which can still be broken, but it breaks differently. Ra chose a material that resists minor damage better but breaks more easily, and then dealt with it by protecting it better; so well that I have yet to hear of one breaking. I didn't say one is better than the other, I just noted the different approaches. Also, since you seem to be an NT fan, you should note that I did not say "NT cheaped out and used plastic." As I understand it, a plastic lens actually costs more to coat, so it seems NT simply made the right choice for their particular target market and spent a tiny bit more for it.



SnWnMe said:


> Presenting predictions as fact.


Not really. I have a 120P, it's green. Many others got purple. Some got pure white. Very much luck of the draw. I have yet to hear of any Ra with a truly bad tint. As for the throw, the only thing that's not absolutely known for a fact is that the Clicky beams will be identical to the Twisty beams. But it stands to reason that they will be because there's no reason for them not to be and, as you said, it makes economic sense. So with that in mind, it's not just prediction. I've seen the beamshots, heard owner comparisons, seen the dramatic difference between a Narrow beam against my NT in person, and calculated out the differences in throw based on numbers supplied by Henry. None of this is exact, but it's accurate enough that you're just being pedantic and petty in harping on it.



SnWnMe said:


> Hey I'm a HDS fan too but I have to speak up for Novatac here. IME they are good ppl. They can't please everyone anymore that HDS can't please everyone.


That's fine. I did not say NT is the devil; I said they're a competitor making a similar light at a lower price, and that's good for those on a tighter budget. I'm not looking to smear them or run them out of business or convince everyone to stop buying from them. I simply gave my opinion of them, and I did it in a very delicate way. "Shady" is so offensive? Of course there are good people working for them, and yes their service is apparently quite decent, I'm not looking to bash that in any way. My criticism of their practices is not at a level that would be seen in a customer's dealings with them.



SnWnMe said:


> See? There you go. DSFDS! :twothumbs


I'm not familiar with that initialism, but I have a terrible feeling it's impolite... 

I think it should be noted that SnWnMe has a previous grudge against me going into this, for reasons I don't entirely understand. While I do not doubt that he is genuine in his points and NT support, I do think his past feelings show through on the more pointless points.





luxlover said:


> Saturn,
> Do you see how SnWnMe is muscling into your long post territory in post #269? Somebody.....get a rope!


You know something, I did notice that! And I think I forgot to praise him for his skillful use of such a fine posting style. However, I have a niggling feeling that it wasn't done in the spirit of flattery suggested at first glance.




luxlover said:


> Holy headlights! I can hear it too! Can anybody else hear it?


I hear things... I hear things.


----------



## SaturnNyne (Nov 10, 2008)

luxlover said:


> *I most certainly have a lot to add, Saturn. I have held in my feelings for too long. Now that I am back to posting in support of Henry, it is time to spill the beans:*


Jeff... Thank you very much for your support and confirmation. I've looked over your little exposé and can confirm it's all true, to my knowledge. But I don't think a few pot shots from people who don't really understand what's being discussed is justification for any bean spilling. This thread isn't the place for inter-company rivalry, and it's likely that there is no appropriate place for it outside of the Underground. On my side, I probably shouldn't have even touched on the matter, even delicately as I did, but it's a part of the difference between the two lights, to me, so I felt compelled to vaguely note it in my response.


----------



## SaturnNyne (Nov 10, 2008)

karlthev said:


> On this we agree...this light will be a keeper....


Jeff ->:grouphug:<-Karl


----------



## SaturnNyne (Nov 10, 2008)

SnWnMe said:


> And Chinese factories and other Asia based manufacturers are among the worst polluters in the world and yet you buy products made over there (your computer for example). You are contributing to the destruction of the earth . A far more serious issue than a trivial toy disguised as a flashlight. Do the right thing. Use only tin cans and lengths of string!


The difference is choice. For many products, we don't have a whole lot of choice in where they come from, and if they're necessities, we're stuck with what we can get. The necessity of a flashlight is arguable... we'll call it a minor necessity to keep everyone happy here. But we do have a choice here, we can get by without buying lights (realistically speaking, not flashaholically speaking) or we can buy lights made in the first world. We're not forced into the same corner you point out for other items. Or, in some cases, we are. Those who can't afford to make a light buying decision based on ethics do not have this choice. For them, it is no longer an issue, just as it isn't an issue in your example. I do try to limit my purchasing of chinese lights, partly because of the concerns you mention.




SnWnMe said:


> This wouldn't have degenerated into a flame war had we kept adjectives like "shady" out of comparing two similar products.


Again, really? Shady? I apologize if this has some greatly offensive meaning I'm not aware of, I truly thought I was being appropriately gentle in my wording.



SnWnMe said:


> I much rather compare their technical merits and describe to the curious, in objective terms, what separates Ras from all other comparable lights.


Actually you took issue with my fair, balanced, and accurate technical discussion too...


----------



## tebore (Nov 10, 2008)

SaturnNyne said:


> Notice that I said *should*. That's significant. What I meant was simply this: The HDS lights had completely flat regulation at everything except full power. The NT regulation tended to jump around a bit and looked more like a normal light. The Twisty regulation is back to being flat, though it seems to waver just slightly on full power.



I don't know about the Twisty but on full power on all my HDS lights they do not flicker or waver. IF it does happen you just need to clean the contacts and it goes away. Perhaps you should try the same. I just don't want people getting the wrong impression. 

NT does have an issue with regulation in general. Want a simple test? Put your light in the freezer and turn it on, it'll do something a bit "Strange..?"


----------



## SaturnNyne (Nov 10, 2008)

tebore said:


> I don't know about the Twisty but on full power on all my HDS lights they do not flicker or waver. IF it does happen you just need to clean the contacts and it goes away. Perhaps you should try the same. I just don't want people getting the wrong impression.
> 
> NT does have an issue with regulation in general. Want a simple test? Put your light in the freezer and turn it on, it'll do something a bit "Strange..?"


That's actually not what I meant about the old HDSes, they definitely do not waver like the NTs at all. When I said they aren't ruler flat on maximum, I was referring to the fact that the battery simply cannot sustain that level with flat regulation, so as a result the max output gradually declines until it steps down to a more manageable level, then it goes perfectly flat. You can see this in the U60 runtime graph on FLR. I have no issues of any kind with my B42. Thanks for bringing that up so I could clarify.

And thanks for the freezer tip, I've never heard of that one before. I'll have to give it a try sometime.


----------



## cave dave (Nov 10, 2008)

got a question about the instructions:



> Caution: Only install fully charged rechargeable batteries. Using partially charged
> batteries may result in the batteries not being properly recognized as rechargeable.
> This can lead to the rechargeable battery being over-discharged and damaged.



One of the things I liked about the novatac is you had to set the battery type, this allowed the use of even a half charged LiIon.
I thought Henry has solved this issue and somewhere in the massive thread Henry said the new Ra lights don't need a manual battery type set because the improved circuit can now accurately detect a LiIon even if it wasn't fully charged. 

The reason I'm concerned is I have handed the HDS EDC to people and they have unscrewed the case and looked inside. It seems like I would have to put in a fully charged battery every time this happens. (I use LiIon 95% of the time)

In other situations the only extra battery I have may be to rob another light of its half discharged LiIon. In addition I would like to be able to do a manual 1/4 unscrew lockout on the light, which works fine with the HDS EDC on primaries but can screw up the auto detect on LiIon.


----------



## tebore (Nov 10, 2008)

SaturnNyne said:


> That's actually not what I meant about the old HDSes, they definitely do not waver like the NTs at all. When I said they aren't ruler flat on maximum, I was referring to the fact that the battery simply cannot sustain that level with flat regulation, so as a result the max output gradually declines until it steps down to a more manageable level, then it goes perfectly flat. You can see this in the U60 runtime graph on FLR. I have no issues of any kind with my B42. Thanks for bringing that up so I could clarify.
> 
> And thanks for the freezer tip, I've never heard of that one before. I'll have to give it a try sometime.



Your original post did not convey this meaning at all. And the old EDCs do have ruler flat regulation for ~20mins (~30mins XRs). The designed runtime was minimal 20mins on max. It was amazing to push 60lm out the front on a Lux3 on a single CR123. Saying it does not have ruler flat regulation implies a drop in output as soon as the light is turned on. You're not using the terminology properly. 

NT really does have an issue with regulation. It looks jagged, looks like it's temp related, possibly confirmed when you put it in the freezer. Chevofreak looked into it a while back but got no response from NT.


----------



## thermal guy (Nov 10, 2008)

luxlover said:


> *I most certainly have a lot to add, Saturn. I have held in my feelings for too long. Now that I am back to posting in support of Henry, it is time to spill the beans:*
> 
> Your explanations above, which are on a technical level, are all true. I also have a light made by NovaTac. I have had no problems with it on any front. It was also my EDC for about nine months, until the Twisty arrived. But ever since I bought it in August 2007, a lot of bad news has come to the surface about the business ethic, or should I say lack of business ethic, of NovaTac. These are the reasons why I would neither support that company on CPF, nor buy their lights nor recommend them to others:
> 
> ...



Finial someone has come out and said what i and many have been thinking for a long time! I agree with every thing you have written Jeff.After seeing all those OLD hds parts for sale on another web site when i was told by novatac that they could do nothing to help me fix one of my lights because they had no spare parts really ticks me off! Bad business.


----------



## SaturnNyne (Nov 10, 2008)

cave dave said:


> got a question about the instructions:. . .


Dave - I have this same question, I hope Henry will step in and clarify. Since there shouldn't be any overlap between a primary cell and a li-ion that hasn't already been badly damaged, my guess is that this will not actually be an issue, despite the warnings. But I'm not really qualified to say.




tebore said:


> Your original post did not convey this meaning at all. And the old EDCs do have ruler flat regulation for ~20mins (~30mins XRs).


Better go tell Quickbeam then.
http://flashlightreviews.com/reviews/hds_edcu60xr.htm


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## tebore (Nov 10, 2008)

thermal guy said:


> Finial someone has come out and said what i and many have been thinking for a long time! I agree with every thing you have written Jeff.After seeing all those OLD hds parts for sale on another web site when i was told by novatac that they could do nothing to help me fix one of my lights because they had no spare parts really ticks me off! Bad business.



That's why I sold any NT light that I came across. I mostly just bought them so get the HDS parts people packaged with them.



SaturnNyne said:


> Better go tell Quickbeam then.
> http://flashlightreviews.com/reviews/hds_edcu60xr.htm



He didn't exactly have a perfectly calibrated IS. And that drop is from the heating of the die.


----------



## SnWnMe (Nov 10, 2008)

SaturnNyne said:


> don't have a _tremendously_ broad sampling, but do you have even one example that you can prove contradicts me? If you do, I'd love to know more so I can add it to my data.



You made the claims IIRC. I don't have to produce any data.



> My statements were not grounds for an argument, they were nothing more than a listing of known facts mixed with reliable speculation for someone who asked. I answered a question, I'm sorry you don't like the answer.


It's not that I did not like the answer. I simply take issue when folks make claims that are not grounded in truth.



> I'm not familiar with that initialism, but I have a terrible feeling it's impolite...


Different Strokes for Different Folks 



> I think it should be noted that SnWnMe has a previous grudge against me going into this, for reasons I don't entirely understand. While I do not doubt that he is genuine in his points and NT support, I do think his past feelings show through on the more pointless points.


Please don't flatter yourself. I merely take issue when folks try to present speculations as arguments. Admittedly we have disagreed before but that probably means I'm just an ornery curmudgeon. And I don't support NT. I am merely backing them in THIS thread mostly because of comparisons touting the advantage of the RA based on speculation over an unreleased product.

If my points were pointless then why did you labor for a long response to it? :twothumbs


----------



## SaturnNyne (Nov 10, 2008)

tebore said:


> He didn't exactly have a perfectly calibrated IS.


I guess I stand corrected then; now please link me to more accurate results from a perfectly calibrated IS.



tebore said:


> And that drop is from the heating of the die.


Wait, the drop does not actually exist because his equipment is flawed, but *if* there is a drop it's because of the led? Tebore, I like you, respect you, and almost always agree with you, but you're trying awful hard to squirm away from your incorrect statement. It doesn't matter what caused the drop or whose fault it is, the fact is that I said there's a drop and there is. You said there isn't a drop, but there is. And based on the current draw readings that have been taken on these lights, I'd guess it has at least as much to do with the battery as the led.


----------



## tebore (Nov 10, 2008)

SaturnNyne said:


> I guess I stand corrected then; now please link me to more accurate results from a perfectly calibrated IS.
> 
> 
> Wait, the drop does not actually exist because his equipment is flawed, but *if* there is a drop it's because of the led? Tebore, I like you, respect you, and almost always agree with you, but you're trying awful hard to squirm away from your incorrect statement. It doesn't matter what caused the drop or whose fault it is, the fact is that I said there's a drop and there is. You said there isn't a drop, but there is. And based on the current draw readings that have been taken on these lights, I'd guess it has at least as much to do with the battery as the led.



I'm not squirming. What I'm saying is he doesn't have a perfectly calibrated IS so don't make it the be all end all. Peter Gransee did have a calibrated IS. This was done about 3 years ago and he tested lights. EDIT: Link found. 

The main issue isn't regulation. It's that it's driving the LED extremely hard so the dimming is a result of the die heating up. This combined with the fact that it's just a light meter in a milk carton won't give you an end all be all representation. http://www.arcflashlight.com/images/Runtime0668a.JPG There's a runtime graph done with a calibrated IS. Another issue is Color temp affects lm readings. It's possible the light had a lower K and the IS calibrated for higher. 

Either way it's not an issue of regulation. Regulation is a matter of the electronics' ability to provide steady power from a source that is constantly dropping while in use. If there is good regulation then amperage draw should increase as voltage drops, which is what I've noticed, it's fairly steady and then a slight increase. There's even a decrease to keep the light within range because as the LED heats up the VF drops allowing more current through.


----------



## grateful1 (Nov 10, 2008)

Which model(s) do we have shipping confirmation on?


----------



## luxlover (Nov 10, 2008)

thermal guy said:


> Finally, someone has come out and said what I and many have been thinking for a long time! I agree with everything you have written Jeff. After seeing all those OLD HDS parts for sale on another website when I was told by NovaTac that they could do nothing to help me fix one of my lights, because they had no spare parts really ticks me off! Bad business.


Finally a guy who believes in the doctrine of right and wrong, and not "all is fair in love and war.....and in business." NovaTac has schemed and scammed many of us from the very first time they announced their existence. The fact that their lights are pretty good, means nothing to an ethical person. They lied, cheated and connived their way to their current position, and they are lucky that those like thermal guy who were refused customer service for their HDS lights, are not filing a class action suit. That is the only way a _millionaire kind of guy_ like Joe Mintz would feel the burn!


----------



## luxlover (Nov 10, 2008)

grateful1 said:


> Which model(s) do we have shipping confirmation on?


Nice try! But it's still a little too steamy around here to be talking about lights. :naughty: Once the dealers inform us that Henry has shipped them some product, we will forget about the issues that are keeping this thread exciting. That includes me, as well!  Peace and tranquility are right around the corner! :grouphug:

Jeff


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## SaturnNyne (Nov 10, 2008)

tebore said:


> Peter Gransee did have a calibrated IS. This was done about 3 years ago and he tested lights. EDIT: Link found.
> . . .
> http://www.arcflashlight.com/images/Runtime0668a.JPG There's a runtime graph done with a calibrated IS. Another issue is Color temp affects lm readings. It's possible the light had a lower K and the IS calibrated for higher.


Tebore - Thanks for finding that, I understand where you're coming from now. I don't think I've ever seen any graphs from him before, only lumen readings. That definitely is a much more impressive curve. While it could be that it was a newer light or just got a more efficient emitter that didn't require the battery to be pushed as hard (as we know, these lights vary quite a bit in their current measurements), I definitely now see that at the very least this is something that varies more dramatically from light to light than I expected, and perhaps it's less of an issue for all of them than the FLR graph suggests, as you think. I don't think either of these is the end all, but it's not as cut and dry as I'd been led to believe. I learned something, and it had to do with HDS being even better than I'd realized; that's always a good thing to learn, so thank you for that. :thumbsup: I'm sorry if I jumped on you more than I should have, it's been a long day.


----------



## tebore (Nov 10, 2008)

SaturnNyne said:


> Tebore - Thanks for finding that, I understand where you're coming from now. I don't think I've ever seen any graphs from him before, only lumen readings. That definitely is a much more impressive curve. While it could be that it was a newer light or just got a more efficient emitter that didn't require the battery to be pushed as hard (as we know, these lights vary quite a bit in their current measurements), I definitely now see that at the very least this is something that varies more dramatically from light to light than I expected, and perhaps it's less of an issue for all of them than the FLR graph suggests, as you think. I don't think either of these is the end all, but it's not as cut and dry as I'd been led to believe. I learned something, and it had to do with HDS being even better than I'd realized; that's always a good thing to learn, so thank you for that. :thumbsup: I'm sorry if I jumped on you more than I should have, it's been a long day.



It's all good . I just like to make sure that there's no false info, mis-info, implications or anything someone can misinterpret to be taken as truth. It's been a long day for me too I'm not sure if this coming out the wrong/right way. I just want the people reading to get nothing but the facts or close to it. 

Testing methods also mess around with the curve. But for light that's able to drive the LED this hard, on 1xCR123 and for that size that's as flat as your gonna get.


----------



## HoopleHead (Nov 10, 2008)

ugh. i keep checking this thread for REAL updates, and all there ever is is :sick2: from people.


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## luxlover (Nov 10, 2008)

HoopleHead said:


> Ugh. I keep checking this thread for REAL updates, and all there ever is is :sick2: from people.


What do you expect? We are stressed out because the Clicky documents have been released, but no lights have been shipped! This situation is NOT for the weak of heart!


----------



## HoopleHead (Nov 10, 2008)

ah i see. so all these posts are supposed to help alleviate the stress! i got it now. carry on.






:sick2:

that smiley reminds me of Calvin.


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## SaturnNyne (Nov 10, 2008)

tebore said:


> But for light that's able to drive the LED this hard, on 1xCR123 and for that size that's as flat as your gonna get.


Yes indeed, HDS regulation is incredible, I never questioned that for a moment. They achieve the flattest regulation I've seen, as flat as it can reasonably be, I'd guess. It may not be significant in use, but I must say it has a strong attraction to me, just to know that my light is working so hard to do its job as perfectly as possible. I'm happy to see it achieves that even more perfectly than I'd realized, though it's still true that absolute perfection is unattainable.

Keep up the good work, we need well-informed people keeping an eye on the facts.




HoopleHead said:


> ugh. i keep checking this thread for REAL updates, and all there ever is is :sick2: from people.


Sorry about that... I seem to have been the accidental :sick2: catalyst today.


----------



## luxlover (Nov 10, 2008)

HoopleHead said:


> ah i see. so all these posts are supposed to help alleviate the stress! i got it now. carry on.
> 
> :sick2:
> 
> that smiley reminds me of Calvin.


Care to join us in our stress relief group therapy session?


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## Kid9P (Nov 11, 2008)

HDS_Systems said:


> LLCoolBeans,
> 
> They are prototypes and ended up taking quite a bit more to get them going than expected. The first batch is almost complete. They may ship on Friday also.
> 
> Henry.


 

Any new updates / anything ship ??


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## waTom (Nov 11, 2008)

hi,

it is probably mentioned already somewhere but i didn't find anything about it.

is the beam pattern difference in the 140c/140cgt and the 140cn models the result of different reflectors or leds? and if it's due to the leds which model uses which?

:shrug:


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## BBL (Nov 11, 2008)

HoopleHead said:


> ugh. i keep checking this thread for REAL updates, and all there ever is is :sick2: from people.


yeah, same here... came here for news, pictures, in-depth information


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## HDS_Systems (Nov 11, 2008)

All,

We have finally finished the pilot production run and addressed all of the issues required to produce the flashlights in volume. We even found and fixed a few bugs along the way. The last of the production issues was resolved tonight and the lights are finally complete and meet the production specifications. They are all packed up and ready to ship. Needless to say, we missed the UPS deadline today so these first lights will ship tomorrow.

Please do your dealers a favor and don't call them up asking when your flashlight will ship. They will notify you when your flashlight is ready to ship to you if it was prepaid or they will ask you for payment when your flashlight is en route to them. Remember, it takes time for the dealers to receive the flashlights and then to turn around and ship them to you. And it will take us several weeks to catch up with all of the exiting pre-orders. I realize that everyone is excited and cannot wait, but please be considerate of the dealers.

There is one item you need to know about. The pocket clips have been delayed several times and are still not ready. We expected them months ago. We are going to include a letter for you to fill out and send back to us. Please print or type your information clearly and include a phone number so we can call you if we have a question. When the pocket clips come in, we will mail them out directly to you. If you purchased your flashlight through an international dealer, you will send the letter to your international dealer and your international dealer will mail out your pocket clip to you. I apologize for the inconvenience.

Oh, one feature that is not mentioned in the documentation. If you unscrew the battery compartment one full turn, you can disable the button. It is a second form of Button Lock - but some people will find it easier to use. Screw the battery compartment back in to re-enable the button. By the way, this also works when the flashlight is turned on.

Cave Dave,

I did solve the problem. The new circuitry and code will allow you to open the battery compartment and close it again with a battery that was used in a Ra Clicky or Ra Twisty and have the battery be properly detected. I do this all of the time when showing the flashlight to people. I also swap between battery chemistries fairly often during testing. Both of these situations provided the impetus for making my flashlight perform the detection reliably without having to "tell" the flashlight which battery I am using. Forcing the customer to tell the flashlight which battery is being used is both inconvenient and confusing to most customers. It now becomes totally automatic.

There is only one case where the auto-detection cannot reliably distinguish between battery chemistries. Your flashlight will not reliably auto-detect the battery chemistry if your lithium-ion battery is so dead that the light is slowly flashing on the lowest brightness level. Once you get to this point, don't open the battery compartment until you have a fresh battery to replace it with.

The circuitry and software can even distinguish that you have swapped to a lithium-ion battery without doing a reset. I found that if I was quick I could swap batteries without the flashlight ever doing a reset. So that case is also handled.

The average user has no way to tell a totally discharged lithium-ion battery taken from another device and a partially discharged lithium-ion battery take from a Ra Clicky or Ra Twisty. It takes too many words and is far too confusing for the average customer to explain the subtleties, so we left the old warning in. 

We also recognized the problem with the EDC Ultimate/Basic detection. The EDC's hardware and algorithms are primitive by comparison to the Ra Clicky.

And you get your unscrew lockout with one turn - see above.

SaturnNyne, Tebore,

Allow me. The instrumentation is providing a relative reading. So as long as there is not a major slope error or non-linearity in the instrumentation, we can assume the drop has nothing to do with instrumentation. The continued drop has relatively little to do with the junction temperature of the LED since the temperature stabilizes quickly. However, part of the initial drop will be from temperature prior to the temperature stabilization.

The all of the later drop prior to step-down has to do with the limitations of the circuit under that set of circumstances. At high currents - we are talking well over an amp at 3V - losses pile up rather quickly. As the battery voltage drops, the current must go up inversely proportionately to keep the power constant. However, there are additional power losses in the circuit at these very high currents that increase as the square of the current, which the circuit eventually cannot compensate for. Hence, less power gets to the LED and the light output drops. You will notice that the lower power "curve" is very flat.

As you have surmised from looking at several different graphs, the power consumed at the maximum setting changes considerably from one flashlight to the next and this directly affects how flat the curve is. At one extreme, the curve is very flat. At the other extreme, the circuit is unable to compensate completely and the output rolls off.

The Ra Clicky does a much better job of keeping things flat at the highest power output.

Henry


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## SaturnNyne (Nov 11, 2008)

Excellent news, Henry! But won't all shippers be closed for the holiday tomorrow?

Edit: Nevermind; since you posted after midnight, tomorrow would be wednesday.

The physical button lock sounds kind of interesting, are you saying you can lock the light on? Not sure why that would ever be desirable, but it's kinda cool if so.

Thanks for clearing up our technical questions too.


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## cree8 (Nov 11, 2008)

Hi Henry thanks for the update this is great news! Please can you let us know what models will ship? Thanks, and once again well done on gettings these lights out. You know this already but i will say it anyway you are making a lot of people happy :twothumbs


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## paxxus (Nov 11, 2008)

Thanks for the update Henry. What models will be in the pilot production run?

Edit: Ha, cree8 beat me to it


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## orcinus (Nov 11, 2008)

SaturnNyne said:


> The physical button lock sounds kind of interesting, are you saying you can lock the light on? Not sure why that would ever be desirable, but it's kinda cool if so.



That's how i understood it too and it makes sense...

The switch in the Clicky's tail is just a "signal switch", i.e. it doesn't actually conduct any current to the light, it just signals the MCU. So if the tailcap is constructed in such a way that unscrewing it a few turns disconnects just the signal path (not the current path, which - i assume - goes through the threads), it becomes possible to lock-out the switch itself, no matter what state the flashlight is in (on or off).


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## paxxus (Nov 11, 2008)

Just a tiny detail: It's the battery tube you can unscrew, not the tail-cap - I think I read somewhere that the tail-cap cannot be removed unless a special tool is used.

I guess that we can already conclude that the Clicky will not have anodized threads like the old HDS lights had - but then the threads are presumably beefier on the Clicky...


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## orcinus (Nov 11, 2008)

Sorry, yeah, battery tube is what i meant to (but failed to) write.
And yes, that would imply non-anodized threads.


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## SaturnNyne (Nov 11, 2008)

orcinus said:


> The switch in the Clicky's tail is just a "signal switch", i.e. it doesn't actually conduct any current to the light, it just signals the MCU. So if the tailcap is constructed in such a way that unscrewing it a few turns disconnects just the signal path (not the current path, which - i assume - goes through the threads), it becomes possible to lock-out the switch itself, no matter what state the flashlight is in (on or off).


Yeah, that's precisely what I was thinking, it makes sense. Now I'm trying to think up a use for such a feature. I think I recall that the tail switch signals when it's pushed and signals again when it's released, rather than sending a continuous signal as long as it's pushed? If that's the case, I wonder if you could set it ramping through its levels and then unscrew it while the button is held down to lock it there.


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## LLCoolBeans (Nov 11, 2008)

HDS_Systems said:


> There is one item you need to know about. The pocket clips have been delayed several times and are still not ready. We expected them months ago. We are going to include a letter for you to fill out and send back to us. Please print or type your information clearly and include a phone number so we can call you if we have a question. When the pocket clips come in, we will mail them out directly to you. If you purchased your flashlight through an international dealer, you will send the letter to your international dealer and your international dealer will mail out your pocket clip to you. I apologize for the inconvenience.



Dang! 

Time to order another NovaTac clip.


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## matrixshaman (Nov 11, 2008)

Yahoooooo!! I knew Henry would pull through and I was already thinking it would be on 11-11 (a magical number) 
The battery detection is a very welcome improvement :twothumbs


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## Dead_Nuts (Nov 11, 2008)

I guess that sound I heard wasn't Clicky's in the mail . . . must've been those rats in the wall, again.


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## orcinus (Nov 11, 2008)

SaturnNyne said:


> I think I recall that the tail switch signals when it's pushed and signals again when it's released, rather than sending a continuous signal as long as it's pushed? If that's the case, I wonder if you could set it ramping through its levels and then unscrew it while the button is held down to lock it there.


I don't think that should work, as the button signals when pushed (as long as it's pushed).


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## cave dave (Nov 11, 2008)

HDS_Systems said:


> Cave Dave,
> 
> I did solve the problem. The new circuitry and code will allow you to open the battery compartment and close it again with a battery that was used in a Ra Clicky or Ra Twisty and have the battery be properly detected.



Great News! :twothumbs




HDS_Systems said:


> The average user has no way to tell a totally discharged lithium-ion battery taken from another device and a partially discharged lithium-ion battery take from a Ra Clicky or Ra Twisty. It takes too many words and is far too confusing for the average customer to explain the subtleties, so we left the old warning in.


If Joe Average doesn't know how to do this he shouldn't be messing around with LiIon IMHO. :sigh:

Is there an open circuit voltage on the LiIon at which I'm safe? OCV on a fresh primary can be 3.2v. I imagine above that and I would work, although I wouldn't even bother unless the LiIon was above 3.6v. I store LiIon at 3.8v so I would definitely want to be able to use those without recharging if I had too.

How is the Ra on the various "safe" Li chemistries. The most promising being the new LiMN 3.7V from AW. I think it has a 4.2v max like regular LiIon


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## glenda17 (Nov 11, 2008)

Why isn't the type of LED listed any where on the Ra clicky web page? Can anyone fill me in as to what it is using ?


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## Enzo Morocioli (Nov 11, 2008)

glenda17 said:


> Why isn't the type of LED listed any where on the Ra clicky web page? Can anyone fill me in as to what it is using ?



HDS doesn't like to market what type of LED they use, and leaves room for emitter changes if/when necessary. 

However, it can be reasonably assumed that the Ra Clicky 140C/GT will use a SSC based LED, and the 140Cn will use an OSRAM based LED.


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## HDS_Systems (Nov 11, 2008)

Cave Dave,

Anywhere along or above the "flat" part of the discharge curve will work fine. So your 3.8V terminal voltage for stored batteries will work fine. By the way, we have seen brand new primary cells with voltages as high as 3.3V.

The AW cells you referenced use the rechargeable Li-MnO2 Li-ion chemistry. The rechargeable Li-MnO2 Li-ion chemistry is supported, although it is not listed in the manual. THIS CHEMISTRY SHOULD NOT BE CONFUSED WITH THE Li-MnO2 NON-RECHARGEABLE PRIMARY BATTERY CHEMISTRY. The rechargeable Li-MnO2 Li-ion chemistry roughly follows the conventional lithium-ion battery voltage profiles (4.2V max, 3.7V nominal). However, you should know that you will get less warning at the end-of-life due to this chemistry's lower internal resistance.

We do not support the lithium-ion phosphate battery chemistries because they can mimic either a primary cell or a conventional lithium-ion battery depending on their state of charge. Their nominal voltage is 3.2V. They have a terminal voltage range from 3.6V at full charge down to 2.5V at cut-off. We have not found a reliable way to detect them.

We also do not support the regulated batteries - the ones that start with a lithium-ion battery and regulate the voltage down to 3.0V. There is no reliable way to detect them and the sudden darkness at the end of discharge is not desirable in a flashlight.

Glenda17,

There was a long discussion a while back about listing specific LEDs. Suffice it to say that we use multiple types of LEDs and each LED is carefully chosen because it meets the desired specifications. We do not use LED models as part of our marketing so we do not list the actual LED model used in each flashlight in our literature.

Henry.


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## gottawearshades (Nov 11, 2008)

I'm just wondering if either the old HDS lanyard ring or the Inox lanyard ring Lighthound sells will fit the new clicky?


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## SaturnNyne (Nov 11, 2008)

orcinus said:


> I don't think that should work, as the button signals when pushed (as long as it's pushed).


Yeah you might be right, I was just remembering and trying to interpret something Henry told me a few months ago about how button interpretation works:


> When the press is released, internally, the flashlight is actually selecting the maximum setting again.




EDIT:


gottawearshades said:


> I'm just wondering if either the old HDS lanyard ring or the Inox lanyard ring Lighthound sells will fit the new clicky?


Didn't the original HDS version go around the waist section since the tailcaps weren't removable? If so, I think I remember Henry saying they'd work fine but would be loose because of the slender waist of the Clicky.


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## cave dave (Nov 11, 2008)

gottawearshades said:


> I'm just wondering if either the old HDS lanyard ring or the Inox lanyard ring Lighthound sells will fit the new clicky?



If you mean the one that screws between the parts. Then the gaps in the picture don't look big enough. There appears to be no gap at the tailswitch.

I use a lanyard attached to a fat o-ring on the waist of my HDS, which also gives a nice cigar grip.


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## SaturnNyne (Nov 11, 2008)

When I want to attach a lanyard to an EDC, I just lasso it around the waist with a slip knot of paracord. Perfectly secure, easy to take on and off, and no rattling.


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## Dead_Nuts (Nov 12, 2008)

OK, the rats are dead.

Don't ask!


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## senna94 (Nov 12, 2008)

Great news Henry!!!!!!! I am sure the clicky was well worth the wait!! I am sure everyone knows by now but I thought I would mention it again. The user's manual and customization manual are available in PDF on the Ra lights website. Certainly everyone is busy dissecting these by now!!
http://ralights.com/?id=Clicky


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## h2oflyer (Nov 12, 2008)

Russ @ UT has announced that he will be getting 2(TWO) RA 140C
on Mon 17th.


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## luxlover (Nov 12, 2008)

h2oflyer said:


> Russ @ UT has announced that he will be getting 2 (TWO) RA 140Cs on Mon. Nov. 17th.


Thank you. Does this mean that YOU are back IN?


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## h2oflyer (Nov 12, 2008)

You're welcome luxlover.

NO I'm not back in, but I did leave MY $100 deposit with RUSSTANG
as a store credit for other future buys.

As you have stated,we're also here for entertainment.


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## luxlover (Nov 12, 2008)

h2oflyer said:


> You're welcome luxlover.
> 
> NO I'm not back in, but I did leave MY $100 deposit with RUSSTANG
> as a store credit for other future buys.
> ...


You'll be back! Then, the motivation will be *SHEER ENVY! :wave:


*


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## LLCoolBeans (Nov 12, 2008)

h2oflyer said:


> Russ @ UT has announced that he will be getting 2(TWO) RA 140C
> on Mon 17th.



Two!? I guess that small pilot run was really quite small. Ouch.


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## Unforgiven (Nov 12, 2008)

Continued


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