# Yesteryears and TODAYS flashlight technology



## xeroid (Jan 7, 2015)

OK, I admit, I'm not as young as I use to be. If I go back to the days I used a simple Maglite 2 AA battery flashlight on a daily basis, and I think of the NEW LED techology I immediately think of the biggest advantage being LEDs use much less power to give out the same amount of light. So one would expect that buying a cheap LED 2 AA flashlight would run for a much longer time. RIGHT? 

That has not been my experience at all .... my 2 AA LED flashlight (a cheap Walmart Police Security Maven) is burning up batteries in about an hour! I would expect a 2 AA LED flashlight to run longer than the Maglite. But that's not true in this case. 

My guess is your going to tell me that the LED light is putting out more light and therefore will burn through batteries rather quickly. But, I'm not noticing any increase in light. Isn't there a flashlight that will replace the Maglite with the same brightness that will run much longer before battery changes? Where is the efficiency gain one would expect with LED light technology?


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## rivermobster (Jan 8, 2015)

xeroid said:


> OK, I admit, I'm not as young as I use to be. If I go back to the days I used a simple Maglite 2 AA battery flashlight on a daily basis, and I think of the NEW LED techology I immediately think of the biggest advantage being LEDs use much less power to give out the same amount of light. So one would expect that buying a cheap LED 2 AA flashlight would run for a much longer time. RIGHT?
> 
> That has not been my experience at all .... my 2 AA LED flashlight (*a cheap Walmart Police Security Maven*) is burning up batteries in about an hour! I would expect a 2 AA LED flashlight to run longer than the Maglite. But that's not true in this case.
> 
> My guess is your going to tell me that the LED light is putting out more light and therefore will burn through batteries rather quickly. But, I'm not noticing any increase in light. Isn't there a flashlight that will replace the Maglite with the same brightness that will run much longer before battery changes? Where is the efficiency gain one would expect with LED light technology?



I think your problem is Walmart...

I have a Streamlight flashlight for work that I bought before LED emitters were even available for it. It would maybe last a half hour or so before I had to swap out the battery pack. Years later, when they developed a LED emitter for it, I bought one right away. Now I can use it all day with the same battery! It puts out more light, runs cooler, and I haven't had to swap a batter pack in ages.

As always, I believe you get what you pay for.


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## Grijon (Jan 8, 2015)

xeroid said:


> OK, I admit, I'm not as young as I use to be. If I go back to the days I used a simple Maglite 2 AA battery flashlight on a daily basis, and I think of the NEW LED techology I immediately think of the biggest advantage being LEDs use much less power to give out the same amount of light.
> 
> That has not been my experience at all .... my 2 AA LED flashlight (a cheap Walmart Police Security Maven) is burning up batteries in about an hour! I would expect a 2 AA LED flashlight to run longer than the Maglite. But that's not true in this case.
> 
> My guess is your going to tell me that the LED light is putting out more light and therefore will burn through batteries rather quickly. But, I'm not noticing any increase in light. Isn't there a flashlight that will replace the Maglite with the same brightness that will run much longer before battery changes? Where is the efficiency gain one would expect with LED light technology?



My Fenix E25 (I see they've updated since I bought mine) will run two AA for 72 HOURS on low while putting out considerably more usable light than a AA MiniMag, which I used myself for years; my E25 will also run 55 lumens (much more light than a stock full-size incan C/D-cell Maglite could dream of) for 10 hours. The new E25 bumps those two runtime ratings to 140 and 11 hours, respectively.



rivermobster said:


> I think your problem is Walmart...
> 
> As always, I believe you get what you pay for.



Absolutely!!



xeroid said:


> So one would expect that buying a cheap LED 2 AA flashlight would run for a much longer time. RIGHT?



I would not expect anything of a cheap light except for it to emit some light for some time, LOL!


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## Charles L. (Jan 8, 2015)

You bought a light from WalMart that retails for $13.00. How much did your Maglite cost when you bought it? What would that be in 2015 dollars?

With all due respect, you did not buy today's flashlight technology. You bought a mega-retailer's marketing BS.

Many great examples of inexpensive flashlights are out there. Among them is an L3 Illuminations L10 3-mode, twisty head, single AA light for a little over $20.00. You can find an Olight S15 2xAA light that will be a huge improvement over your Maglite for the upper $30's to low $40's. And that's just scratching the surface of what is available.

Today's technology includes a thing called Google


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## Chicken Drumstick (Jan 8, 2015)

xeroid said:


> OK, I admit, I'm not as young as I use to be. If I go back to the days I used a simple Maglite 2 AA battery flashlight on a daily basis, and I think of the NEW LED techology I immediately think of the biggest advantage being LEDs use much less power to give out the same amount of light. So one would expect that buying a cheap LED 2 AA flashlight would run for a much longer time. RIGHT?
> 
> That has not been my experience at all .... my 2 AA LED flashlight (a cheap Walmart Police Security Maven) is burning up batteries in about an hour! I would expect a 2 AA LED flashlight to run longer than the Maglite. But that's not true in this case.
> 
> My guess is your going to tell me that the LED light is putting out more light and therefore will burn through batteries rather quickly. But, I'm not noticing any increase in light. Isn't there a flashlight that will replace the Maglite with the same brightness that will run much longer before battery changes? Where is the efficiency gain one would expect with LED light technology?


There are several things here.

1. Output. A LED putting out the same light using the same power will last longer.

2. Batteries. Don't use alkalines. Even the best ones are rubbish and perform badly, they suffer huge voltage sag and very prone to leaking. NiMh rechargeable (such as Sanyo Eneloops) will offer much better performance and of course you just recharge them. Lithium Primaries (Energizer) are non rechargeable but are far superior to alkaline batteries in every regard, much better performance & runtime, don't leak and have a great shelf life.

3. The actual torch. No idea on the one you listed, but any half decent budget 2AA torch will be efficient and brighter. 


To sum up, a good torch + good batteries will give you great runtime and/or performance. I think the incan Mini Maglite is rated at about 9 lumens or something. An LED making 50 lumens should last hours and hours and hours. But 2AA is also easily capable of making 200-300 lumens.


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## xeroid (Jan 9, 2015)

This really has nothing to do with Walmart or the $12.98 price tag of the flashlight.

Maven is a best seller! 
Travel size, with durable aluminum construction and tactical design.
3 Modes: 
High - 130 Lumens 
Low- Conserves energy 
Flash - Signal for help 
Includes 2 AA Alkaline Batteries.

• 130 Lumens
• 3 Hour Effective run time
• Up to 5 hours of continuous run time to 0% battery life. ( _May not be true _)
• 140m Beam distance
• Soft touch mode change( 3 light displays) 
• 3 light settings(High,Low,Flash)
• Cree XPE
• 2 AA batteries
• Strike Bezel
• Water resistant


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## knfmn (Jan 9, 2015)

My experience has been that there have been *huge* changes in flashlight technology, just in the past 5 years, let alone the last 20 years. I'm pushing 40, so I definitely remember when Maglights where just the best thing out there. I got interested in more high end lights about 15 years ago, when SureFire was the greatest thing out there. Now, I'm carrying a Fenix PD22 that takes a single CR123, puts out way more light than the SureFire I used to carry that took two CR123s and can run for about 100 hours on a single battery at its lowest setting. It's kind of awesome.


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## MidnightDistortions (Jan 9, 2015)

Grijon said:


> My Fenix E25 (I see they've updated since I bought mine) will run two AA for 72 HOURS on low while putting out considerably more usable light than a AA MiniMag, which I used myself for years; my E25 will also run 55 lumens (much more light than a stock full-size incan C/D-cell Maglite could dream of) for 10 hours. The new E25 bumps those two runtime ratings to 140 and 11 hours, respectively.



+1

to OP: Definitely go for the Fenix E25.

Also are you using alkalines or NiMHs? Need to list your brand name and mAh rating.


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## Beamhead (Jan 9, 2015)

xeroid said:


> My guess is your going to tell me that the LED light is putting out more light and therefore will burn through batteries rather quickly.



Nope, I'm going to tell you the cheap light isn't up to spec.



xeroid said:


> But, I'm not noticing any increase in light.


I am sitting here with an old school incandescent mag AA and even the free HF 9 LED lights put out more light. 


xeroid said:


> Isn't there a flashlight that will replace the Maglite with the same brightness that will run much longer before battery changes?


Yes, many, use some of your exuberance and research them.



xeroid said:


> This really has nothing to do with Walmart or the $12.98 price tag of the flashlight.
> 
> Maven is a best seller!
> Travel size, with durable aluminum construction and tactical design.
> ...


 emphasis added by me............

You say you burn through AA cells in an hour, is there any light coming out after an hour? If so it may continue to run at moon level output up to 5 hours. They list it out to 0%, we here use the 50% standard.


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## reppans (Jan 9, 2015)

xeroid said:


> But, I'm not noticing any increase in light. Isn't there a flashlight that will replace the Maglite with the same brightness that will run much longer before battery changes? Where is the efficiency gain one would expect with LED light technology?



Sounds like you got ripped off, my AA Minimag measure ~7 lumens. Even a 5$ Sipik does 60lms from 1AA. I've runtime tested a couple mid-priced ($40-65) lights at 8-9 lms for 30 hrs on 1xEneloop (probably run longer on an Alkaline)... and that's current regulated.


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## ForrestChump (Jan 9, 2015)

rivermobster said:


> I think your problem is Walmart...


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## Chicken Drumstick (Jan 9, 2015)

xeroid said:


> This really has nothing to do with Walmart or the $12.98 price tag of the flashlight.
> 
> Maven is a best seller!
> Travel size, with durable aluminum construction and tactical design.
> ...


Well you are the one complaining. Do yourself a favour, by something better and use some proper batteries. Then be amazed at the slap in the face by reality that you'll receive.


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## Charles L. (Jan 9, 2015)

xeroid said:


> This really has nothing to do with Walmart or the $12.98 price tag of the flashlight.



Um, yes it does. But no sense in belaboring the point -- please either try one of the lights mentioned in this thread, or do your own research and find one that interests you. You haven't approached SOTA flashlight technology yet.


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## xeroid (Jan 10, 2015)

There really isn't much to these small flashlights. Looking at the Fenix E25, there really isn't much difference. They both use the same LED CREE XPE, are driven by the same power 2-AAs, both have 3 intensity modes & a flashing mode, and both are made with solid aluminum bodies. The switch location is only real difference I see.

So maybe I'm just not realizing that the light is indeed brighter than the old MiniMag, and using better batteries will make any light seem a whole lot better. Maybe that's why Fenix E25 recommends using Ni-MH batteries.


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## reppans (Jan 10, 2015)

xeroid said:


> There really isn't much to these small flashlights. Looking at the Fenix E25, there really isn't much difference. They both use the same LED CREE XPE, are driven by the same power 2-AAs, both have 3 intensity modes & a flashing mode, and both are made with solid aluminum bodies. The switch location is only real difference I see.
> 
> So maybe I'm just not realizing that the light is indeed brighter than the old MiniMag, and using better batteries will make any light seem a whole lot better. Maybe that's why Fenix E25 recommends using Ni-MH batteries.



I'm utterly astounded that someone that goes to such great depths researching the dangers of Li-ion use in flashlights could compare a Fenix to a Walmart "Maven(?)" in this way..... unless you're troll'n, of course.


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## mcnair55 (Jan 10, 2015)

Buy yourself a Led Lenser P7.2 and a couple of packets of Alkaline,great light and better than that old pony Maglite.


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## MidnightDistortions (Jan 10, 2015)

xeroid said:


> There really isn't much to these small flashlights. Looking at the Fenix E25, there really isn't much difference. They both use the same LED CREE XPE, are driven by the same power 2-AAs, both have 3 intensity modes & a flashing mode, and both are made with solid aluminum bodies. The switch location is only real difference I see.
> 
> So maybe I'm just not realizing that the light is indeed brighter than the old MiniMag, and using better batteries will make any light seem a whole lot better. Maybe that's why Fenix E25 recommends using Ni-MH batteries.



Did you actually try the Fenix E25 or is it just specs you're looking up?

I only found the light you have on this Walmart site. I can't find it anywhere else and doesn't appear to be on the US website so there's no way i could get one if i wanted to test it out. In all it's a cheap flashlight and despite it using the same LED (if it's even the same LED and not a cheap knockoff), they might be using inferior internals or could be some other factor. Using a charged set of alkalines or NiMHs it won't make much difference other than the alkalines should make the light slightly brighter in the beginning. Again i wouldn't trust Walmart's claim nor the manufacture of this light. There are plenty of better, more reputable flashlight brands out there.


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## gravelmonkey (Jan 10, 2015)

xeroid said:


> <snip> Where is the efficiency gain one would expect with LED light technology?



Example figures:
Incandescent bulb = (roughly) 16 lumens per Watt.
Cree XP-E = 148 lumens per Watt.

(Both subject to some reflector/lense etc losses when put inside a flashlight)


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## xeroid (Jan 10, 2015)

Just comparing specs. Yes, only available in Canadian Walmart stores. You say "in all it's a cheap flashlight despite it using the same LED etc etc" So you speculate that because it comes from Walmart, = specs must be lying?


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## Beamhead (Jan 10, 2015)

xeroid said:


> Just comparing specs. Yes, only available in Canadian Walmart stores. You say "in all it's a cheap flashlight despite it using the same LED etc etc" So you speculate that because it comes from Walmart, = specs must be lying?


It doesn't use the same driver/circuit....................that is where the rubber meets the road, :welcome: but do some research.


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## Chicken Drumstick (Jan 10, 2015)

xeroid said:


> There really isn't much to these small flashlights. Looking at the Fenix E25, there really isn't much difference. They both use the same LED CREE XPE, are driven by the same power 2-AAs, both have 3 intensity modes & a flashing mode, and both are made with solid aluminum bodies. The switch location is only real difference I see.
> 
> So maybe I'm just not realizing that the light is indeed brighter than the old MiniMag, and using better batteries will make any light seem a whole lot better. Maybe that's why Fenix E25 recommends using Ni-MH batteries.


You seem to be being very difficult, is it on purpose or just your personality?


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## reppans (Jan 10, 2015)

xeroid said:


> Just comparing specs. Yes, only available in Canadian Walmart stores. You say "in all it's a cheap flashlight despite it using the same LED etc etc" So you speculate that because it comes from Walmart, = specs must be lying?



Even among the respected manufacturers that CPF members recommend here, there's a lot of lying going around.. and by 2-4x factors in lumen-hrs which accounts for both output and runtime. $5 and a smartphone can get you a decent lightbox to test lights yourself.


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## Charles L. (Jan 10, 2015)

reppans said:


> Even among the respected manufacturers that CPF members recommend here, there's a lot of lying going around.. and by 2-4x factors in lumen-hrs which accounts for both output and runtime. $5 and a smartphone can get you a decent lightbox to test lights yourself.



So true. The claimed runtimes of some of the more respected headlamp manufacturers, as but one example, are laughable.

xeroid, we used to have a saying at my old firm that I'm sure wasn't original: often wrong, never in doubt. Don't be that guy. Try the Fenix to which you refer. Then decide.


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## mcnair55 (Jan 10, 2015)

reppans said:


> Even among the respected manufacturers that CPF members recommend here, there's a lot of lying going around.. and by 2-4x factors in lumen-hrs which accounts for both output and runtime. $5 and a smartphone can get you a decent lightbox to test lights yourself.




I think it uncalled for to you say they are lying,surely better to say they are economical with the truth.:devil:


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## xeroid (Jan 10, 2015)

Beamhead said:


> It doesn't use the same driver/circuit....................that is where the rubber meets the road, :welcome: but do some research.



OH .... OK ..... can you explain what this superior circuit in the Fenix is doing that makes it better?


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## xeroid (Jan 10, 2015)

Chicken Drumstick said:


> You seem to be being very difficult, is it on purpose or just your personality?



Not trying to be difficult, but it seems some believe the Walmart Light is crap, while the Fenix is far superior. And that may very well be the case. If I don't ask tough questions, I'll never know exactly why you believe this. :thumbsup: I like seeing evidence based fact.


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## mcnair55 (Jan 10, 2015)

What size Jacket are you?


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## Beamhead (Jan 10, 2015)

xeroid said:


> OH .... OK ..... can you explain what this superior circuit in the Fenix is doing that makes it better?





xeroid said:


> Not trying to be difficult, but it seems some believe the Walmart Light is crap, while the Fenix is far superior. And that may very well be the case. If I don't ask tough questions, I'll never know exactly why you believe this. :thumbsup: I like seeing evidence based fact.


I don't mind n00bs asking questions but when they question what veterans say then........................look for the member Selfbuilt's reviews, and then question his results.:wave:


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## 1DaveN (Jan 10, 2015)

xeroid said:


> Not trying to be difficult, but it seems some believe the Walmart Light is crap, while the Fenix is far superior. And that may very well be the case. If I don't ask tough questions, I'll never know exactly why you believe this. :thumbsup: I like seeing evidence based fact.



I can't comment on the Walmart light because I've never seen one. I did just get an E25, and I can tell you that I'm very impressed with the quality. In my opinion, you should look at an E25 and hold it in your hand, try it out - and then if you think the Walmart light is just as good, you should get that (or be happy with the one you've already got). I'm really pleased with my Fenix lights, but I recently talked to my brothers, both of whom are happy with $7 to $12 no-name LED lights. Quality and reliability are a lot more important to me than price, but they don't have any complaints with their cheaper lights. I know that someone will be inheriting my Fenix lights in good working order, but that might be true of the $12 ones as well. Plenty of people will say I was crazy to spend almost $40 for a 2xAA light, while I think about the fact that that light might save my butt some time in an emergency. I think our points are equally valid, at least to ourselves.


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## 880arm (Jan 10, 2015)

xeroid said:


> Not trying to be difficult, but it seems some believe the Walmart Light is crap, while the Fenix is far superior. And that may very well be the case. If I don't ask tough questions, I'll never know exactly why you believe this. :thumbsup: I like seeing evidence based fact.



Based upon the specs you provided, the "Police Security Maven" is rated to produce 130 lumens for 3 hours of "effective runtime" (whatever effective means) and 5 hours to 0%. A 2xAA MagLite is rated for something like 14 lumens for a little more than 5 hours. MagLite is a pretty well established company, they use industry standard methods for rating the performance of their lights, and I have no reason to doubt their ratings (with the understanding that neither of these lights is producing anything remotely close to their initial level of output after extended runtime).

Now add your testimonial that the the "Police Security Maven" only runs for one hour and produces no more light than the MagLite. Based upon that "evidence" I see only a few possible explanations:



The "Police Security Maven" is a crappy light with horribly inflated ratings. In fact, it seems almost impossibly crappy if it really has a Cree XPE and is powered by a decent pair of batteries. This would be be characteristic of dishonest business practices on the part of someone (the manufacturer or seller).
There is something defective about the particular flashlight (or batteries) that you purchased. A simple return and exchange might solve this dilemma. Heaven forbid if it comes in a "Try Me" package, the batteries can be near dead before you even buy it.
Your facts about the performance of the LED flashlight are incorrect.
Yesteryear's technology is actually far superior to today's and everyone here is clueless. We all just need to go buy a AA Maglite.

If your assessment of the LED's performance is correct then my impression is that either #1 or #2 applies. In this case, the fact that the "Police Security Maven" performed so poorly is not an accurate reflection of today's technology and has no bearing on products from companies with a proven track record of making flashlights. 

If your assessment is incorrect, it could possibly be due to the fact that Maglites have the ability to produce a fairly tight (intense) beam that is capable of reaching farther than their comparatively low output (lumens) would indicate. I wouldn't be surprised at all if the Maglite has more reach than the other light but this should be offset by a much broader and more intense spill beam produced by the LED equipped flashlight. If this is not the case then refer back to #1 and #2 above.

#4 is a non-starter. There have been a lot of fine incandescent flashlights produced through the years but it's not very hard to find an LED equipped flashlight that can outperform the incandescent AA Maglite in runtime and/or output.


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## cland72 (Jan 10, 2015)

Buy a quark mini 2aa and tell me the LED isn't more efficient. I'm a fan of incans, but when one light in LED format can give multiple brightness and runtime modes, it's a no brainier. 

I agree that your Walmart led light is on the lower end which is probably why your experience has been disappointing. 


Sent from my iPad using Candlepowerforums


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## MidnightDistortions (Jan 10, 2015)

xeroid said:


> Just comparing specs. Yes, only available in Canadian Walmart stores. You say "in all it's a cheap flashlight despite it using the same LED etc etc" So you speculate that because it comes from Walmart, = specs must be lying?





xeroid said:


> Not trying to be difficult, but it seems some believe the Walmart Light is crap, while the Fenix is far superior. And that may very well be the case. If I don't ask tough questions, I'll never know exactly why you believe this. :thumbsup: I like seeing evidence based fact.



If you really want to test the flashlight out go out and buy some new Duracell alkalines and see if the output is the same, it's the cheapest method and if you really want to get down to it, check the voltage on the batteries you are using on the light with a multimeter and the new batteries as well if you decide to get them. In my experience though some lights are not as up to spec as others are. If you are looking for a cheap but good light to compare try out the Dorcy 41-2510. It's only 55 lumens but it should give you an idea of whether your light is poorly made. It isn't completely waterproof either so i wouldn't go underwater with it, it floats though which i find to be a good flashlight to be used if you're in a flooded area and i got it for $6, which they increased the price a little. I've seen a couple of these Dorcy lights in a few stores around here i don't know if Canada has some for a similar price.

If you're saying that an incandescent AA Maglite produces the same amount of power as the Walmart light which claims 130 lumens, an incandescent AA Maglite produces nowhere near that amount, though they have pretty good distance and range for a classic light, they are not as bright as the Dorcy i suggested, you should be seeing a profound difference with the light you have vs the Maglite.


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## Fleetwood (Jan 11, 2015)

I had an experience about 8 years ago with a cheap LED torch which I wasn't very impressed with. I have a couple of mid-range torches now and I can tell you they would blow any of my old incandescents away, in terms of battery life, light output, features - I would never go back to incandescent, that would be a crazy thing to do! I think you need to invest in a better torch, I bet if you posted in the "Recommend me a light" area with your requirements you would get some valuable replies.


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## xeroid (Jan 11, 2015)

Just to repeat myself, this "so called" "CHEAP" "INFERIOR" flashlight has nothing to do with Walmart, and is sold in many other retail locations. 

From the manufacturers website:

[h=1]The fastest growing flashlight brand in North America[/h] [h=4]Just a few short years ago, Police Security was created by a 25-year leader in automotive accessories. After launching in just a few hundred locations, Police Security can now be found in over 7,500 retail stores and is growing every day.[/h] Police Security flashlights were created to bring innovation to a product category that had not seen major advancements since the 1980s. Incandescent bulbs have been pushed aside by highly advanced LED chips. The challenge for many flashlight manufacturers is that LED lighting technology is advancing so quickly that they cannot keep up with the latest component offerings. Police Security focuses on consumer-driven designs and speed-to-market that makes the next generation in flashlights available to you today!
With a proprietary approach to product development, Police Security offers the very latest in lighting technology, featuring the highest quality CREE®​ LEDs. Today, we are known as the major innovator in flashlight technology and design.
*Technology and Construction*


Our flashlights are built with rugged aluminum so they stand up to everyday and extraordinary use – household needs, camping, preparedness.
 Advanced CREE®​ technology provides a higher intensity light for the same amount of power that regular flashlights use. You get longer runtime and brighter light from a Police Security flashlight.
[h=2]Innovative Design[/h] Since our launch, we have designed many personal lighting styles, colors and sizes. We understand that there are different times, places and activities when you need to brighten your surroundings.
From a growing range of colors to a variety of sizes, Police Security has the right flashlight for everyone. Superior hand-feel includes perfectly balanced weight, specialized rubber grips and comfortable textured metal handles. Our collection was founded on popular tactical designs and is expanding into sleek, stylish fashion designs. And our exciting product line expansion includes photographic image finishes that will forever change the way you look at flashlights!
[h=2]Quality and Value[/h] When it comes to quality, Police Security is the brand you can count on. We strive for the highest level of manufacturing excellence, with a commitment to continuously improve. Featuring CREE®​ LEDs, we offer the highest quality lights, combined with rugged aluminum, durable finishes and reliable performance.
We provide high quality batteries in our flashlights, with a “Try Me” feature, so that you can test the flashlight in the store, before you take it home. Compare our Lumens, construction, design and price to the competition. We think you’ll agree that Police Security is personal lighting power and dependability you need at a value that is remarkable.


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## jfwalker (Jan 11, 2015)

xeroid said:


> Just to repeat myself, this "so called" "CHEAP" "INFERIOR" flashlight has nothing to do with Walmart, and is sold in many other retail locations.
> 
> From the manufacturers website:
> 
> ...



Well, they published that so it must be true. 

Let's face it: either your light/batteries is/are broken or over-represented--you choose. 

People have given great advice here about testing it or trying a different light; I can personally say that some of my cheapest LED lights outperform (in brightness and runtime, anyways) my great incandescent Surefires. I also have an AA maglite that doesn't compete with any of my LEDs or Surefires. 

Once again, I suggest you try batteries, return or exchange the light, and then try a previously suggested light.


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## Beamhead (Jan 11, 2015)

xeroid are you related to Handlobraesing? I own 2 Police Security 2xaaa pen lights only because I got a gift card from a local sporting good store and spent it on them. They cost $10.00 retail, they are OK but in no way compare to my 47 Preon 2, they are cheaply made, but worth the $0.00 I spent on them. :shrug:


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## xeroid (Jan 11, 2015)

Beamhead said:


> xeroid are you related to Handlobraesing? I own 2 Police Security 2xaaa pen lights only because I got a gift card from a local sporting good store and spent it on them. They cost $10.00 retail, they are OK but in no way compare to my 47 Preon 2, they are cheaply made, but worth the $0.00 I spent on them. :shrug:



What is wrong with your two Police Security lights? A quick look at the Preon 2 and here is what people who have bought one are saying:

I really like this light, but I've been having a lot of trouble with the clicker. It has flickered in the past, but is now not changing brightness between the middle and high beam modes. 

I have the same problem. I bought this light in Sept 2014, It has needed new batteries before so I know what it does when this happens. It started flickering about a month ago, since then I've tried new batteries, didn't work. Tried batteries out of a 99 cent flashlight that has worked for years, didn't work. Now it has gone from flickering to doesn't work at all. I Don't recommend, and do not use this light as a EDC light.

Just bought a blue preon p2. When I tighten the head all the way down, it goes slightly crooked, meaning one side towards where the head and body meets gets sucked in slightly, while the other side bulges out slightly. Is this normal? Are you not supposed to tighten the head down all the way?

I've had nothing but problems with my Preon 2. The clicker tail cap only works when it wants to. I've tried pulling it apart and putting it back together, nothing helps. The issues appears to be inside of the actual clicker inside the tail cap. I contacted Foursevens a few months ago with my issue and they never replied.

Now which light did you say was cheaply made?  and at 4 - 5 times the price !!!


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## Charles L. (Jan 11, 2015)

I think we've been fooled. You seemed to have come here for advice, when in fact you are a troll. Try a different light, or don't -- I've wasted too much time in this thread already.


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## Beamhead (Jan 11, 2015)

xeroid said:


> What is wrong with your two Police Security lights? A quick look at the Preon 2 and here is what people who have bought one are saying:
> 
> I really like this light, but I've been having a lot of trouble with the clicker. It has flickered in the past, but is now not changing brightness between the middle and high beam modes.
> 
> ...



The most used light of my hundred+ lights is my Preon 2, if you search these forums you will find posts about every light out there having a problem or 2, I in most cases take them with a grain of salt. My Preon has NEVER failed me, NEVER flickered, burped, hiccupped...etc.
I think you are Handlobraesing, your MO is spot on, if you tried to research what we have told you half as involved as you have to perpetuate your argument you would have learned. I do believe you are a troll, you came here and started 2 threads that are a perfect example of troll 101. Welcome to the ignore function.


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## carrot (Jan 11, 2015)

You wouldn't compare a Ford to a Ferrari would you?

They are both made of metal. They both have some wheels. They both have an engine and they both take petrol. 

These days, the primary differentiator in flashlights is in the circuitry. In the old days before LEDs batteries were directly wired to bulbs. Some LED flashlights were also made in the same way, but now that is often relegated to the truly cheapest products. 

A modern LED flashlight will use fairly complicated circuitry to regulate the power being sent to the LED for either greater performance or greater runtime or some compromise chosen of both. Many will offer various features or modes as a function of that advanced circuitry. Competing flashlights may use the same battery and same LED, but they will otherwise distinguish themselves in the actual build of the light, and the complexity or quality of the circuitry used inside. This can provide radically different products, despite the LED and power source being the same. 

The flip side to circuitry is that they are especially hungry for power. It means to provide the best power available people like to use rechargeables of some kind. Disposable alkaline batteries experience significant voltage sag as they get used up, which causes the flashlight to dim. Many rechargeables are able to sustain that higher voltage longer as compared to their battery life. 

Finally, few people here are familiar with your flashlight brand. Companies can say whatever they like about themselves on their site, so we like to compare against known quantities, and reviews here are often a trusted source. The Quark and Fenix lights are known quantities. Many people here are familiar with them and they are known to be generally good lights, well-made and mostly trouble-free. Nothing in this world is trouble-free and both of those companies also offer great warranties should problems arise. Thus, they have built a reputation where people are happy to recommend them.


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## xeroid (Jan 11, 2015)

It's so easy to say TROLL when your not comfortable. I didn't make the reviews up ... they are posted on the manufacturers website. Let's face it, these EDCs are simple flashlights. Paying 5 times more does not always equate to a product that is always 5 times better. Buying them and trying them is harder on the pocket book and not a scientific way to judge which is better. :shakehead If it's the circuitry inside that makes the difference, why aren't the manufacturers telling us the circuit they're using just as they like to mention the LED they use?


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## mcnair55 (Jan 12, 2015)

xeroid said:


> It's so easy to say TROLL when your not comfortable. I didn't make the reviews up ... they are posted on the manufacturers website. Let's face it, these EDCs are simple flashlights. Paying 5 times more does not always equate to a product that is always 5 times better. Buying them and trying them is harder on the pocket book and not a scientific way to judge which is better. :shakehead If it's the circuitry inside that makes the difference, why aren't the manufacturers telling us the circuit they're using just as they like to mention the LED they use?



Does it really bother you that much what circuit they use? It is a simple tube battery and a chip and lights up when you press or twist.:nana:


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## Grijon (Jan 12, 2015)

Beamhead said:


> Welcome to the ignore function.



Thank you, Beamhead!

I'm no stranger to forums and recognized some days ago that this thread is simple trolling; I wanted to Ignore the troll but didn't see the option, so I decided to just do my best to ignore him as one would non-electronically, ha ha.

Seeing your comment made me think, if someone else is mentioning the feature maybe it _is_ there and I just didn't see it - so I look again and BOOM! You just made my CPF experience _much_ better, knowing that I can screen comments by people I know that are best to be not-seen by me. Thank you!!!


There are some stellar posts in this thread by some quality people; lovecpf!

You guys are great and I'm glad that trolls are so rare. If I may make a suggestion - don't feed the trolls. It only encourages them, and without attention they will eventually go away; and if you Ignore them it makes it much easier.


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## carrot (Jan 12, 2015)

xeroid said:


> It's so easy to say TROLL when your not comfortable. I didn't make the reviews up ... they are posted on the manufacturers website. Let's face it, these EDCs are simple flashlights. Paying 5 times more does not always equate to a product that is always 5 times better. Buying them and trying them is harder on the pocket book and not a scientific way to judge which is better. :shakehead If it's the circuitry inside that makes the difference, why aren't the manufacturers telling us the circuit they're using just as they like to mention the LED they use?



Very simple. The circuitry used in these flashlights is often custom-designed for each product or manufacturer. When they aren't, no manufacturer is generally willing to say that they are using off the shelf technology. What would it even mean to the average customer that the boost circuits on a light are based on the popular 7135 IC? Nobody cares. They care about the results, not the underlying technology.

I am not asserting that your flashlight or any other flashlight is higher or lower quality. That's not the point of what I said. All I said was that they are rarely ever as similar as they appear at first blush.

I've often seen threads where the OP shows no real interest in hearing what others have to say. That's OK, everyone is entitled to their own opinion. But if you come along and discard everything that people helpfully try to point out, don't expect to endear yourself to anybody.


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## xeroid (Jan 12, 2015)

I'm pretty sure for the most part, the circuitry is off the self and not custom designed at all, just like the LEDs used, or the circuit details of the custom made circuit would be available. As it is now, you can find all kinds of lights that have the exact same functions for controlling them. The point is that no one seems to be able to validate a flashlight costing five times the amount is truly worth the extra cost, when all the specs available are showing parts in both of them are the same. I definitely hear what many posters are saying, but in most cases it's simply an opinion which for some odd reason they can't validate scientifically. It's kind of like you're all caught up in buying the hype of a well known name brand and paying more for it simply because of the name and hype around it. And that's fine I guess if the name means that much to you. I prefer to buy a light based on facts, the components used to make the light, and overall VALUE.


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## gravelmonkey (Jan 12, 2015)

xeroid said:


> I'm pretty sure for the most part, the circuitry is off the self and not custom designed at all, just like the LEDs used, or the circuit details of the custom made circuit would be available. As it is now, you can find all kinds of lights that have the exact same functions for controlling them. *The point is that no one seems to be able to validate a flashlight costing five times the amount is truly worth the extra cost,* when all the specs available are showing parts in both of them are the same. I definitely hear what many posters are saying, but in most cases it's *simply an opinion which for some odd reason they can't validate scientifically*. It's kind of like you're all caught up in buying the hype of a well known name brand and paying more for it simply because of the name and hype around it. And that's fine I guess if the name means that much to you.* I prefer to buy a light based on facts, the components used to make the light, and overall VALUE.*



In order of bold text:

1) That's the idea of the law of diminishing returns - to get progressively higher performance costs exponentially more. Same with watches, knives, pens...

2) The reviews section will give you plenty of runtime graphs, reviewer comments etc. How do you validate how much extra someone is willing to pay to brand? Or for warranty/customer service? Or for 'enjoyment to own factor' - a cheap watch and expensive watch both tell the time, which is more satisfying to own? 

3) So, do you believe your light represents good value, or not? I'm interested.


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## MidnightDistortions (Jan 12, 2015)

xeroid said:


> OK, I admit, I'm not as young as I use to be. If I go back to the days I used a simple Maglite 2 AA battery flashlight on a daily basis, and I think of the NEW LED techology I immediately think of the biggest advantage being LEDs use much less power to give out the same amount of light. So one would expect that buying a cheap LED 2 AA flashlight would run for a much longer time. RIGHT?
> 
> That has not been my experience at all .... my 2 AA LED flashlight (a cheap Walmart Police Security Maven) is burning up batteries in about an hour! I would expect a 2 AA LED flashlight to run longer than the Maglite. But that's not true in this case.
> 
> My guess is your going to tell me that the LED light is putting out more light and therefore will burn through batteries rather quickly. But, I'm not noticing any increase in light. Isn't there a flashlight that will replace the Maglite with the same brightness that will run much longer before battery changes? Where is the efficiency gain one would expect with LED light technology?





xeroid said:


> This really has nothing to do with Walmart or the $12.98 price tag of the flashlight.
> 
> Maven is a best seller!
> Travel size, with durable aluminum construction and tactical design.
> ...





reppans said:


> Sounds like you got ripped off, my AA Minimag measure ~7 lumens. Even a 5$ Sipik does 60lms from 1AA. I've runtime tested a couple mid-priced ($40-65) lights at 8-9 lms for 30 hrs on 1xEneloop (probably run longer on an Alkaline)... and that's current regulated.





xeroid said:


> I'm pretty sure for the most part, the circuitry is off the self and not custom designed at all, just like the LEDs used, or the circuit details of the custom made circuit would be available. As it is now, you can find all kinds of lights that have the exact same functions for controlling them. The point is that no one seems to be able to validate a flashlight costing five times the amount is truly worth the extra cost, when all the specs available are showing parts in both of them are the same. I definitely hear what many posters are saying, but in most cases it's simply an opinion which for some odd reason they can't validate scientifically. It's kind of like you're all caught up in buying the hype of a well known name brand and paying more for it simply because of the name and hype around it. And that's fine I guess if the name means that much to you. I prefer to buy a light based on facts, the components used to make the light, and overall VALUE.



I had to quote all of this, including the specs from the Fenix E25


> Maximium 260 lumens output featuring the latest Cree XP-E2 LED
> Focused beam provides 197 yards visibility
> Use two commonly available AA batteries (included)
> Four brightness settings: Burst: 260 lumens; High: 130 lumens; Medium: 55 lumens; Low: 8 lumens
> ...




http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00JVFTKZG/?tag=cpf0b6-20

So i'm confused here. You say you are trying to buy a light based on facts, components and overall value. According to you your AA Minimag produces the same amount of light as this 'cheap walmart maven police security' light. All the while the Fenix E25 blows that AA Minimag out of the water. I didn't bother quoting that section on how the light manufacturer boasts how of a good quality light they produce and maybe they do but then you say this light sucks out all the juice out of your batteries. Then someone accuses you of being a troll because you are not making any sense here and get all defensive when you get called out.

It isn't an opinion that the Fenix E25 is brighter than an indacascent AA Minimag and you're explaining that this 'security light' is no brighter than that minimag. While some people are sticking to name brands, the folks in this forum want the best lights. Whether it's your batteries, a short in the light or it's that the light itself is not of quality and you in fact got an inferior light if i bought that light and seen the performance you're getting into it, i'd just return it and go for a different brand light. I'm not calling you out here or anything.. it's not making any sense to me that you're asking why your light is producing the same amount of light as an AA Minimag and then not checking these details out. No one is asking you to go out to buy a Fenix E25 or to go out to buy another light, we are suggesting that you try.. as a hobbyist, if you don't believe what we are saying you would get those suggestions to try out for yourself and then post your findings but again since you don't have a Fenix E25 in hand you're simply just talking that all flashlight manufactures tell the truth and sell you a quality light like any other manufacturer out there. My experience in the consumer business world is that not all manufactures live up to their reputations.


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## mcnair55 (Jan 12, 2015)

I am having a spam sandwich for tea and a new coffee called trollcafe.


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## xeroid (Jan 12, 2015)

To clarify what I had said, is I didn't notice the brightness of the Maven to be all that much brighter and that I didn't like the batteries draining so fast. But it might be a first impression or an over expectation of the new technology. Without a light meter, and having older eyes, it may be factually true that the Maven is putting out all the light it has claimed it can. And running the light most times on HIGH may be the reason for short lived battery life. I'm NEW to these lights, and was hopeful that I would easily recognize a brighter and longer lasting light. What I will do however, is get the necessary tools to actually find out what is true. A light meter, and do some actual controlled tests, just because I want to know the truth. 

If the Fenix actually gives me 130 lumens for 3 hours and 30 min as claimed, I'd buy it !!! Has anyone tested this to be true?


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## 880arm (Jan 12, 2015)

xeroid said:


> . . .If the Fenix actually gives me 130 lumens for 3 hours and 30 min as claimed, I'd buy it !!! Has anyone tested this to be true?



I believe Fenix did but it would have been according to the ANSI FL1 Standard, measuring runtime until output drops to 10%.

Earlier you were insistent upon FACTS. When confronted with those you have shifted your focus to VALUE, a subject that has been discussed plenty of times before. I will help you out a little bit . . . no one here can assign what value a product should have to you, no more than you can assign the value something should have to someone else. This is an immutable fact whether you are discussing flashlights, knives, cars, electronics, beer, or anything else.


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## xeroid (Jan 12, 2015)

880arm said:


> I believe Fenix did but it would have been according to the ANSI FL1 Standard, measuring runtime until output drops to 10%.



Can you elaborate more on what this might mean. Does it mean running the Fenix on 130 lumens is not likely to go for 3 hours and 30 minutes?


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## Grizzman (Jan 12, 2015)

There's no need for you to go out and buy test equipment to prove that a light that outputs a real 130 lumens is brighter than a Mini-Maglite. I'll do it for you.

I just took a new, unused 2AA incandescent Mini-Maglite with two new Duracell alkaline batteries into my small very dark half-bath. I also brought a Surefire E2E Executive 2XCR123 body with a Malkoff M61L 219 drop-in sitting in a VME head. This light was powered by two partially used CR123 cells (resting voltage of 3.075v) and has been universally accepted to output 125 lumes.

I also brought my Extech EasyView 30 light meter. By following standard CPF ceiling bounce procedures, I measured the peak lux delivered by both lights. The peak (carefully adjusted the beam) lux delivered by the Mni-Maglite was 5.25 lux. The peak lux delivered by the LED light was 33.05 lux. This difference in output did not require a light meter to be identified. 

You bought the light at Wal-Mart, right? They're well known to accept returns and exchanges for product. Do us all a favor and return this light for a refund, since it obviously (at least to me) is not delivering the performance promised.

Use the information that's been provided here, and use that money to purchase a new light. 

A user here with a screen name of Selfbuilt, has spent countless hours reviewing and measuring lights for our benefit. 

http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb...ews-the-new-and-improved-flashlightreviews-ca

It seems he has not reviewed the Fenix E25, but has has reviewed lots of other lights, and one of them will surely meet your needs.


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## 880arm (Jan 12, 2015)

xeroid said:


> Can you elaborate more on what this might mean. Does it mean running the Fenix on 130 lumens is not likely to go for 3 hours and 30 minutes?



Depends upon the regulation and batteries used. Most 2AA lights would decline in output at some point when powered by alkalines but I have no first-hand experience with the E25. 

The Fenixlighting website shows 1hr 45min of runtime with Alkalines. The 3+ hour runtimes may be with NiMH cells.


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## MidnightDistortions (Jan 12, 2015)

xeroid said:


> To clarify what I had said, is I didn't notice the brightness of the Maven to be all that much brighter and that I didn't like the batteries draining so fast. But it might be a first impression or an over expectation of the new technology. Without a light meter, and having older eyes, it may be factually true that the Maven is putting out all the light it has claimed it can. And running the light most times on HIGH may be the reason for short lived battery life. I'm NEW to these lights, and was hopeful that I would easily recognize a brighter and longer lasting light. What I will do however, is get the necessary tools to actually find out what is true. A light meter, and do some actual controlled tests, just because I want to know the truth.
> 
> If the Fenix actually gives me 130 lumens for 3 hours and 30 min as claimed, I'd buy it !!! Has anyone tested this to be true?



Ok, lol it just seemed you didn't know all the facts and yet had a hard time believing what we were telling you.

But as we said it seems like the light is draining the batteries too quickly (probably because they are alkalines) and there seems to be some kind of issue with that, i would definitely return it if you can. As for the Fenix, i haven't tested it on high yet (mostly because i recharge batteries when they get around 1.23volts and i don't need the light on for that long at once). I'll have to check and see the real time, but as others have mentioned you'll get longer run time with NiMH batteries. Alkalines produce half that amount on the Fenix (think it's an 1 hour 30 minutes) and it might be that your particular light runs for an hour on alkalines.


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## xzel87 (Jan 12, 2015)

Mr. Xeroid,

Rather than convince you of a better brand and reliable (and more expensive) light like Fenix, it would perhaps be better to give you an example of CHEAPER BUT BETTER lights than your Maven. If you have some 18650 batteries and a charger, this one, priced at a little more than half the price of your Maven, is also a much better light, and definitely lasts longer than an hour on high :thumbsup:

I've taken a look at some of the review videos of your Maven, it does seem bright in the vid so like someone else here have mentioned, you may have received a faulty unit. Try and get it exchanged and test it out at the shop comparing a new one and the current one you have.

To be fair, where I'm at, the retail price for that Maven would be pretty good in a supermarket/hypermarket if it was compared to all the knock-offs sold here at exorbitant prices to the general uninformed public.


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## xeroid (Jan 12, 2015)

Do you know where I could get a good working adapter to use 3 AAA Ni MH instead of an 18650?


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## xzel87 (Jan 12, 2015)

Hurmm...There are adaptors on DX, however I doubt that it will fit in the battery tube (since widthwise 18650 fits perfectly and the adaptor is about ~2-3mm wider). In addition, runtimes would be severely shortened due to the reduced Wh of using 3xAAA in series as compared to a single 18650, which will lead to your original complaint which is low runtime.

However, you are free to try though. I found this on DX.

Another cheap and okay light I recommend would be the SK68 clones, I've purchased this as loaners, gifts and even resold them for a small profit :devilselling price still cheaper than street price here btw). It runs on AA or 14500. Runtime is about 1 1/2 to 2 hours on high (Eneloop/Energizer Max). I've never had complaints from the people I've gifted, loaned or resold these to.

IF you are willing to spend slightly more than TWICE of what you paid for the Maven. Do consider the Nitecore MT21A, runs on 2xAA, high mode 130 Lumens lasts for 5 hours. It's still cheaper than the E25/E21. It does have a very tight hotspot though (great throw, but less/dimmer spill). I personally own this myself.

Quite a lot of nice, affordable AA lights if you search for it and do some research. One other good affordable example (twice the price of your Maven) is the Thrunite T10.


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## Poppy (Jan 12, 2015)

xeroid said:


> Do you know where I could get a good working adapter to use 3 AAA Ni MH instead of an 18650?



One 18650 has the capacity of about 13 AAA batteries. Are you purposefully looking for a shorter run-time?


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## xzel87 (Jan 12, 2015)

He wants a safer battery type, based on his input on his other thread in regards to li-ion dangers in sealed flashlights.

BTW, for momentary and short duration uses 3xAAA works well. I have a colleague here with an ultrafire zoomie running on 3xAAA and he seems pretty content with the brightness and runtime for his applications. 

Granted, that's the setup it came with when he bought the light and he doesn't realise that it can run on 18650.


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## Mr. Nobody (Jan 13, 2015)




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## mcnair55 (Jan 13, 2015)

Charles L. said:


> I think we've been fooled. You seemed to have come here for advice, when in fact you are a troll. Try a different light, or don't -- I've wasted too much time in this thread already.



+1 spot on


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## MidnightDistortions (Jan 13, 2015)

Mr. Nobody said:


>



I haven't seen one of those in years!! Wasn't that like from the 20's or 30s or something?


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## D6859 (Jan 14, 2015)

Charles L. said:


> You bought a light from WalMart that retails for $13.00. How much did your Maglite cost when you bought it? What would that be in 2015 dollars?


That's a good question. IIRC Maglites were the most expensive lights here when I was a kid. 



Charles L. said:


> You can find an Olight S15 2xAA light that will be a huge improvement over your Maglite for the upper $30's to low $40's. And that's just scratching the surface of what is available.



+1 for Olight S15.


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## Beamhead (Jan 14, 2015)

D6859 said:


> That's a good question. IIRC Maglites were the most expensive lights here when I was a kid.
> 
> 
> 
> +1 for Olight S15.


+2 just picked 2 of Ti versions for the price of the AL.


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## xeroid (Jan 15, 2015)

Regarding the Olight S15 .... 280 Lumens, 1 AA Battery, Run Time 15 days. Obviously this information isn't clear. As many of you already own this light, what is the actual run time with 1 AA Battery running at 280 Lumens? 30 Minutes? 60 Minutes?


Max Output280 LumensLow0.5 LumensTotal Runtime15 daysLength3.4 in / 86mmBezel Diameter0.9 in / 23mmPeak Beam Intensity1,750 cdBattery1x AA or 14500


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## Beamhead (Jan 15, 2015)

http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?367813


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## xeroid (Jan 15, 2015)

OK .. followed your link and the verdict is .....

One thing is clear – on 1xAA, the S15 is a fair-to-mediocre performer on its Hi mode (i.e. closer to XP-G lights in output/runtime).


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## Charles L. (Jan 15, 2015)

As the review clearly and repeatedly states, the S15 is much more efficient in 2xAA mode -- which is the format I suggested as a comparison to your 2xAA Maven as well as your old 2xAA Maglite. Although the extension tube is supposed to be optional, many vendors sell the light/extension as a package.


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## Beamhead (Jan 15, 2015)

The Ti version comes with the extender. Still 2 in stock at a major dealer for $49.95.


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