# Does the US military still use Surefire



## Albinoni1967 (Mar 5, 2014)

Just a quick question here but is the US military still using Surefire torches or is it something different now. I would of thought that they would of also used Foursevens since that's also a US company.


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## Labrador72 (Mar 5, 2014)

I personally don't know but I'd say military units that were purchasing stocks of flashlights, would still be buying Surefire as there is little else out there that matches their rugged design, reliability, and customer service. 

Foursevens are definitely very good lights but not comparable to Surefire and the fact that Foursevens are a US-based company does not automatically make it ideal for military stock procurement - their lights are still made in China anyway! Aside from brightness and UI customizability, I don't think they are even close in matching Surefire quality.

If you search around there are threads about the use of flashlights in the military.


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## Albinoni1967 (Mar 5, 2014)

Ok would be interesting to see what the Chinese military use probably fenix


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## TMedina (Mar 5, 2014)

Just a note: the US military does not exclusively use Surefire lights. You can find all sorts of lights, ranging from x2 AA incan Mini-maglites to top-of-the-line Surefire weaponlights.

There is not a single, standard issue flashlight. The closest might be the Fulton Anglehead you buy in BCT, but I never saw anyone use one after BCT/AIT.


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## KeeblerElf (Mar 5, 2014)

Other brands I might expect to see in use in the US military include HDS, Malkoff, and Elzetta (assuming American-made lights would be preferable). I would probably recommend the latter two for weapon lights, or perhaps something from Armytek.


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## MBentz (Mar 5, 2014)

Brands I saw during my enlistment included SureFire, Streamlight, Gerber and Maglite. When it came to being mounted on a weapon, it was a SureFire. When it came to actually being issued by the U.S. Army, it was a SureFire. That was my experience.

Streamlight, Gerber and Maglite were both sold in PX for personal use.


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## dss_777 (Mar 5, 2014)

I think flashlights/weaponlights purchased buy .mil have to be Berry Amendment compliant, right?

Other than Surefire, who else qualifies?


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## Jumpmaster (Mar 5, 2014)

When we deployed, we were issued Novatac lights and Pentagonlight weaponlights...


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## MBentz (Mar 5, 2014)

Jumpmaster said:


> When we deployed, we were issued Novatac lights and Pentagonlight weaponlights...



What unit? I'm not familiar with your avatar.


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## climberkid (Mar 5, 2014)

Our Air Force Base purchases Surefires. Our Active Duty flying unit just bought new 6PXs and the maintenance squadron buys U2s.


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## MBentz (Mar 5, 2014)

climberkid said:


> Our Air Force Base purchases Surefires. Our Active Duty flying unit just bought new 6PXs and the maintenance squadron buys U2s.



Flight crew gets shafted with 6PXs while the grease monkeys get U2s? Impressive.


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## TMedina (Mar 5, 2014)

I'd heard that the Marines had approved Novatacs, but it wasn't a "general issue" item.

The Berry-compliant issue is a good question, as not many flashlights are fully assembled in the US. Surefire and Maglite are - I don't know about Streamlight. And Pentagon Lights got sued out of business over it.

For the civilians reading the thread, individual units can buy equipment and issue it to its members, but that doesn't make it a general issue item. For example, everyone gets a pair of boots issued - not everyone gets a flashlight issued when they come in.


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## JeremyS (Mar 6, 2014)

I'm a contracting officer for the Navy. While my command does not typically purchase flashlights, I can tell you the Berry Act and Buy American Act would apply. The Buy American Act is the bigger issue. The BAA requires (1) the end product must be manufactured in the U.S. and (2) the cost of all its domestically manufactured components must exceed 50% of the cost of all its components. However, if the purchase is below the micro purchase threshold ($3,000) then the BAA does not apply. One can also get a waiver in emergencies, or if there is not sufficient domestic sources, etc. Lots of loop-holes, as with any law. Some countries have free trade agreements with the US that allow them to compete without restrictions. Nevertheless, the BAA is why you see "This item qualifies under the Buy American Act" on the bottom of many Surefire boxes.


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## BIG45-70 (Mar 6, 2014)

The only guys I ever see that use flash lights are airforce. Everyone else uses headlamps. These very from black diamond, petzl and energizers. As a weapon mounted light I was issued an Insight but we all call them Surefires (even know they're not)

For the record we don't even use light in the field on any exercises as you always try and maintain light disciple, that goes for red light also. Its simple really, you use light and your more likely to be scene by enemy. I rely on my NVG's and good old night adapted vision like anyone in a combat trade.


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## gsr (Mar 7, 2014)

I've seen Pelicans of various types, First Light USA Tomahawk NV, Petzl headlamps, and Surefire weaponlights in various supply rooms. For the most part, personal items like flashlights, wrist watches, pocket knives , and multi tools are up to the individual to buy with their own money. These types of items are certianly available in the supply system, but few units have the budget, or are willing to use their budget, to provide their members with them. Most units won't even buy Fultons or Maglites.


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## TMedina (Mar 7, 2014)

Heh. The only flashlights my unit had were the ones that went with road guard vests. A couple of my guys had mini-Mags. And then there was me.


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## MBentz (Mar 7, 2014)

BIG45-70 said:


> The only guys I ever see that use flash lights are airforce. Everyone else uses headlamps. These very from black diamond, petzl and energizers. As a weapon mounted light I was issued an Insight but we all call them Surefires (even know they're not)
> 
> For the record we don't even use light in the field on any exercises as you always try and maintain light disciple, that goes for red light also. Its simple really, you use light and your more likely to be scene by enemy. I rely on my NVG's and good old night adapted vision like anyone in a combat trade.



What unit are you in?


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## calviroman (Mar 22, 2014)

20+ years in the USAF (1993-current and counting)...for handheld lights, in the 90's everybody was rocking 2AA mini-mags and 2D Mags. Early 2000's started to see some 6P's. Now its pretty hodgepodge...still see lots of beat up old Mags, lots of worn 6P's, and mostly just random stuff. I EDC'd a 2AA Mini-Mag with a Terralux MiniStar2 Extreme drop in and aftermarket clicky tailcap in Iraq (not issued). There is no "standard" light...just whatever the unit purchases at the time. Nowadays, at work I EDC a 6P w/ Malkoff M61 drop in.


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## Monocrom (Mar 23, 2014)

TMedina said:


> I'd heard that the Marines had approved Novatacs, but it wasn't a "general issue" item.
> 
> The Berry-compliant issue is a good question, as not many flashlights are fully assembled in the US. Surefire and Maglite are - I don't know about Streamlight. *And Pentagon Lights got sued out of business over it.*



Not quite. SureFire sued them with that issue as one of the two main ones. (The other being patent infringement.) 

PentagonLights wasn't found guilty of anything. The company ultimately went out of business because SureFire's lawyers knew how to use the legal system to their advantage. Convincing the judge to grant an injunction on the patent infringement issue _despite P.L. not having been found guilty of doing anything wrong_, so that P.L. couldn't legally sell anymore lights; thus couldn't make any more money. No money to pay their attorneys. No money left to fight the lawsuit. P.L. was forced to shut its doors. SureFire used the system the way a guy named "John" would use a "working girl." P.L. wasn't found guilty of anything. Not patent infringement, and certainly not about being a non-American flashlight maker. SureFire didn't win their lawsuit. Didn't prove their accusations to be true. P.L. after awhile just literally couldn't afford to defend themselves against the lawsuit. 

As for Streamlight, the more time that passes; the more their lights are Made in China.


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## BillSWPA (Mar 24, 2014)

Monocrom said:


> Not quite. SureFire sued them with that issue as one of the two main ones. (The other being patent infringement.)
> 
> PentagonLights wasn't found guilty of anything. The company ultimately went out of business because SureFire's lawyers knew how to use the legal system to their advantage. Convincing the judge to grant an injunction on the patent infringement issue _despite P.L. not having been found guilty of doing anything wrong_, so that P.L. couldn't legally sell anymore lights; thus couldn't make any more money. No money to pay their attorneys. No money left to fight the lawsuit. P.L. was forced to shut its doors. SureFire used the system the way a guy named "John" would use a "working girl." P.L. wasn't found guilty of anything. Not patent infringement, and certainly not about being a non-American flashlight maker. SureFire didn't win their lawsuit. Didn't prove their accusations to be true. P.L. after awhile just literally couldn't afford to defend themselves against the lawsuit.
> 
> As for Streamlight, the more time that passes; the more their lights are Made in China.



To get a permanent injunction, you have to win your suit, as well as prove that monetary damages are inadequate compensation.

To get a preliminary injunction, you have to show irreparable harm + likelihood of success on the merits of the suit. The preliminary injunction hearing is much like a full blown trial, where the plaintiff has to prove their case, done within a very short time frame. 

The only other way to get an injunction is as part of a settlement agreement, which means the defendant has to agree to it.


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## Monocrom (Mar 24, 2014)

David just didn't have the money to fight Goliath, in a courtroom. (Yes, SureFire is a small company compared to the likes of [email protected] But huge, compared to PentagonLights.) 

I know guys who were arrested on B.S. charges. Including cases in which the judge looked at the details and actually advised defendants that they should get a lawyer since the charges could easily be fought. But, the defendants couldn't afford to hire good lawyers. It was cheaper and less of a hassle for them just to plea guilty and pay a fine. Also, it meant not having to take days off from work, and losing that money, to fight the charges. (Unfortunately it also meant having sometimes serious misdemeanors noted on their records.) They just couldn't afford to fight.

Similar thing happened to P.L.

SureFire knew how to use the system to put a stranglehold on a competitor whose handheld lights were no match for SureFire's offerings. But whose weapon-mounted lights were just as popular. P.L. cried "Uncle" in order to get the lawsuit over with because the company lacked the money to fight the charges. Still, PentagonLights wasn't found guilty of any wrong-doing.


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## gunlove (Sep 21, 2014)

I last two lights I have been issue (Army Fort Campbell) have been:

Insight M3 varient: Very cheap feeling light.
Insight WMX200 Series Weapon Mounted Light most recently: Better but still not up to surefire standards, IMO. There is a hinge on the mount that comes loose during sustained fire and then allows the light to flop back and forth. I am not sure why the heck they would put a hinge on it...

I have yet to see any of the new surefire M952V IR/Visible LEDs.


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## Alex W (Sep 21, 2014)

Albinoni1967 said:


> Ok would be interesting to see what the Chinese military use probably fenix


red from some flashlight articles that Fenix lights are good in china but not the supplier of chinese military. It's another flashlight brand called NEXTORCH or something, which designed and produced the world's first smart light.


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## Paradigmonds (Sep 30, 2014)

I was attached to a JSOC unit Ft Bragg / Pope AFB from 1998-2005 and, while my unit may have been the exception, not the rule, I probably saw a dozen different brands of torches come through. Lots of Streamlight and Surefire. Some Insight, and plenty of Maglites. I even managed to wrangle up a custom from our gear cage that would put most of those I've owned since to shame. There are certainly better out on the market now, but back in 2000, it was incredible.

W


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## TMedina (Oct 5, 2014)

gunlove said:


> I last two lights I have been issue (Army Fort Campbell) have been:
> 
> Insight M3 varient: Very cheap feeling light.
> Insight WMX200 Series Weapon Mounted Light most recently: Better but still not up to surefire standards, IMO. There is a hinge on the mount that comes loose during sustained fire and then allows the light to flop back and forth. I am not sure why the heck they would put a hinge on it...
> ...



The hinge-mount, if I recall correctly, was an attempt to make the weaponlight a multi-purpose tool - the marketing blurb ran that you could use the light on a weapon, then pop it free for use in hand.

I certainly hope it didn't sell well. :thumbsdow


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