# Tritium zip pull..



## stjohn

Hi Guys,
not sure if this is the correct forum so please let me know if it isn't!

I just designed and made a tritium zip pull and would love to get some feedback from you guys here. This is the design prototype and is made from solid silver. It contains four tritium cells, 2mmx10mm each. I used red and green to start with. The idea behind it was for people who climb mountains (I am a keen ice climber). I wanted something that would let me see my zip as the light started to go down and enable me to control the zip easily wearing big gloves - I think it succeeds on those counts..! What do you guys think? If there is any interest I can make more available out of any material - I am thinking titanium...





cheers,
st.john


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## mohanjude

Pm sent - I can help you with pic


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## 65535

Without seeing pictures can't be a whole lot of help. My only concern is silver although a nice metal to work with might be too soft to protect the glass tritium tubes from being cracked.


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## Henk_Lu

Just load the pic up somewhere, click Insert Image and paste the link in there...


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## Larbo

Pics please


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## stjohn

Just worked out how to post the image - thanks Mohan and Henk!


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## stjohn

65535: silver is the prototype material - this shows the form and function. I can produce it out of any material, I am thinking titanium which is lite, fairly tough and also takes a good range of nice anodized finishes and textures..

cheers, stjohn


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## climberkid

John this is great. I love the styling! How much time does it take to create one for you?


-Alex


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## stjohn

Hi Alex,
thanks! Well my job is as a design and production engineer and this is what I do all the time. I also love doing it so that is a big advantage for me. Ice climbing is one of my hobbies (I am the inventor of Schmoolz) and I came up with this idea so I could control the zip on my technical clothing better. If you are wearing big gloves it can be a major effort to pull your zip especially if you are pumped halfway up a pitch and blowing out of your arse . Using this I can grab the zip easy and also see it easy if I am still on a route and light is going down. Time wise it took about a week or two on and off to design and develop the idea then make the prototype. Production now is straight forward, I programme my machines, set the job off and watch the parts fall into the part bin... - easy when you know how and it only took me 20 years to learn! lol..

cheers, st.john


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## Silgt

Stainless Steel (cheaper) & titanium (slightly more exotic material) would be great :thumbsup:


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## stjohn

titanium is my first choice :twothumbs


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## greenlight

I don't really care much for zip-pulls but it is a very attractive little bead.


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## stjohn

thanks!


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## nbp

Very cool; Ti would be sweet. The appetite for Ti trit beads around here is high now, it's a good time to do these I think.


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## stjohn

Hi Guys,
ok, I have made some design changes! I will put up some pictures here to show you. I would like to take pre-orders if that is possible. it will be a 3 trit, titanium material, bead blast finish zip pull coming in at around 30 euros - 5 euro discount for pre-orders. anodising will also be possible (standard colours).

Trits will be secured in place and protected with a clear potting compound (norland or similar). Shipping is from europe to anywhere..

Pictures to go up soon!

cheers,
st.john


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## climberkid

Sounds awesome. Will you do international shipping?


-Alex


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## stjohn

Hi Alex,
sure I will ship anywhere, no problem.


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## Light11

What is the diameter of the lanyard hole?
Is it big enough to fit 2 strands of 550 paracord?
Looks very nice!


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## stjohn

hi Light11! diameter will be 3.25mm - big enough for 2x1.5mm cord and still tight enough for it not to float around


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## stjohn

I think this will be the final design (youtube animation) :http://youtu.be/k4UlwJQY42o I have spent quite a bit of time on this and have all the manufacturing processes in place ready to go.

Holds 3 tritium light sources, 3x10mm, sealed with norland in a bead blasted titanium body. Going to go for a price of 30 euros a piece plus postage anywhere in the world (recorded airmail). Colours available green and red. Ice blue if a demand for it! Taking pre-orders now for an approx 3/4 week delivery time. If anyone would like one or more details please email me, [email protected]

I hope this post is ok and not contravening any rules... (just let me know if it is)

Any questions or queries fire away!
many thanks, stjohn


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## gunga

Looks cool. I'll have to take a closer look.


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## stjohn

and a picture of the tritium bead bomb:





cheers,
stjohn


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## gunga

Does the price include trits?


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## Silgt

stjohn said:


> Trits will be secured in place and protected with a clear potting compound (norland or similar).



I would think trits are included...

...if so I would be interested in pre-ordering at least 2 pcs, 1x green & 1x ice blue


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## nfetterly

Silgt said:


> I would think trits are included...
> 
> ...if so I would be interested in pre-ordering at least 2 pcs, 1x green & 1x ice blue



Same for me...


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## gunga

Yes, I think I would pre-order 2. Need something for my TCR1!


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## sassaquin

Any connection to the Titanium-Bead-Bomb sold on The Marketplace last Winter? They look similar to each other.


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## climberkid

I'd go for a red or ice blue

-Alex


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## stjohn

sassaquin - no connection at all! I just designed these over the last couple of weeks...

cheers, stjohn


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## stjohn

yes, trits included..


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## stjohn

Hi Guys, just finalizing some production details! will post back soon with exact details etc..


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## gunga

Cool, I remain interested.


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## Light11

Great!:thumbsup:
Interested in a couple.Green and Ice blue or red trits.
I look forward to seeing a proto of the new design.





stjohn said:


> hi Light11! diameter will be 3.25mm - big enough for 2x1.5mm cord and still tight enough for it not to float around


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## toby_pra

Just a kindly advise Mister...these look nearly exactly like my Beadbombs!
I mean the one you show in Post #22.

This design is patented here in germany per law! I really hope you dont sell these! 
Otherwise it could be ilegal, this is not really a different design 
in my eyes...why no own design?

To state this clear, you dont have any permission 
to copy my design! Thanks


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## toby_pra

stjohn said:


> and a picture of the tritium bead bomb:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> cheers,
> stjohn



You dont want to say, these are your own thuoghts?
Are you kidding me?


I really cant understand that...its so obviously that even 
other members post here and i get several PM's 
That is nothing what this community needs!


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## toby_pra

http://www.cpfmarketplace.com/mp/sh...ishes-added*&p=4632503&viewfull=1#post4632503

Here are some pics to compare


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## stjohn

Hi Toby,
thanks for showing me your design! Your zip pull has only two slots for tritiums that I can see, mine has three. Mine also has some other design features yours does not have apart from being a completely different size and shape (from what I can see). So yes they are both zip pulls and yes of course mine is my own design which I am perfectly entitled to make and sell. Please send me details of your patent, [email protected] and I will check it out. Of course if you have a patent and I infringe upon that then you are quite correct that may be against the law which I would certainly not want to contravene. Competition and the availability of different products is not copying. My own personal opinion is that competition is good for product designers and communities. Simply look at the range and number of torches available, they all have a light and battery but they are all different! If we only had one torch or zip pull life would not be much fun!

best regards,
stjohn

p.m. sent..


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## gunga

Looks similar, but 2 vs 3 slots etc.


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## shado

They look very similar to Toby's :thinking: These are called "the tritium bead bomb" and Toby's "Beadbomb (AKA the Tritiumbead)"


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## Light11

Stjohn,

After seeing the new CAD I'm not longer interested if these are going to be like Toby's Bead-bombs.


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## stjohn

Light11,
sure no problem.You are under no obligation! My design is quite different to his. I design stuff because I enjoy it, you buy it if you enjoy it 

cheers, stjohn


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## toby_pra

You really want to discuss design features...???

As you can see, other members have the same
opinion, you have copied many of my features
so that it looks nearly same as mine...

I wont accept this and investigate, as i stated 
in my PM. This has nothing in common with competition
when you are not able to create a complete own 
design! This is shame! 

I hope a mod will check this thread soon, also its
against the rules to take orders here.


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## toby_pra

Also in your youtube animation you call it "tritium bead-bomb"
Are you kidding me?


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## Eric242

I find it very hard to believe you´d design THAT without ever seeing Toby´s Beadbomb AND calling it the bead bomb. I´m sorry, but that kind of coincidence doesn´t exist in my book. To me it looks like you took Toby´s design, changed a few things here and there without being able to come up with your own name for that. Even if you don´t infringe on any patents it´s just POOR.

Eric


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## blitzlicht65

Isn't copying normal today? 

(*If* it is copying!!??)


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## Silgt

Firstly, I don't claim to be any legal or IPR expert so I can offer any tangible advice and it's all from my personal observations...

In today's highly competitive world, taking design inspiration and/or being a downright copycat exist in almost anything imaginable. That's why the most important steps any inventor/designer/entrepreneur must take is a visit to his IPR lawyer then straight off to the trademark office. Almost anything we use today is a design ripoff from someone else's idea or design. The car you drive, the phone you use or even the computer that you are reading this on...it's basically someone else's design with improvements/tweaks on it. So it exist in every facet of our daily lives and we sort of accepted it (besides the lawyers of course) as norm.

I'm sure there are many similarities in both designs and perhaps stjohn did looked at Toby's design and decided to add a twist to it? Bottomline is without proper brand name trademark and design copyrights, Toby can claim a moral high ground of coming out with the "original" beadbomb and nothing more. If he did indeed copyrighted it, then he will be accorded the due protection of the law. It sucks I know but what can you do? I'm sure somewhere down the line, someone else will copy my business approach, the way I presented my products packaging, the copywriting that I use for my marketing materials and no doubt I will mighty pissed off but that's THAT!!! 

I have long concluded that the one with better marketing, higher quality products, most competitive pricing, rock solid after-sales support and be the most efficient in satisfying customers needs will gain from his work, whether he is the first to the market or not!

Just my two cents...


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## toby_pra

Aside any patents its against the law to copy thuoghts, thats law
within the EU, a patent is better needed, when you need to
investigate. Its easier that way...

When i look back and think about the work and time
we invested to create this design its a shame, to tell 
there is an an own design. BTW, the sidepipes are 
the most important design feature.


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## nbp

Legal or not, it's not good for this community IMO, to have a battle going on over designs like this. 

Personally, I'd like to see the OP come up with some unique designs and present them. It seems he has the skills, and people are definitely interested in the product. Why not just work on an entirely new bead? It seems the best option overall.


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## Silgt

Toby, when will your tritium beadbombs be made available again? I missed out to the previous run and I would like to purchase one for my own enjoyment, and also to compare with other products that I will buy in the future


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## borealis

Why in the world would you want a metallic zip pull if you're an ice climber? You wouldn't be able to touch it with your bare hands and there's a risk of it sticking to your face.


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## toby_pra

After this stress here i will show a new unique design
next month 

Beadbomb Vol.2


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## mikesantor

EDIT, I did not see the second page of this thread before I posted... I now see toby has already been here and I said what everyone else did. Im an idiot, sorry...







Yea, Not trying to be a **** but yours is called tritium bead bomb, Toby's are called titanium bead bombs and yours look identical too his without the vertical lines milled. I would change it up some...

Yours







Toby's


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## stjohn

Borealis - thanks for your comments. I climb quite a lot of ice, when doing it you where big gloves, that's the point - it makes it possible to handle your zip.

cheers, st.john


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## stjohn

Guys,
I worked on my own design and developed it myself. I did not copy Toby's design. My 'bead bomb' is quite a bit different to Toby's. It is a progression from a number of models. When finished I will post it up and you can decide for yourselves...

cheers,
stjohn


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## borealis

stjohn said:


> Guys,
> I worked on my own design and developed it myself. I did not copy Toby's design. My 'bead bomb' is quite a bit different to Toby's. It is a progression from a number of models. When finished I will post it up and you can decide for yourselves...
> 
> cheers,
> stjohn


Even if you reinvented the light bulb all on your own and called it a bulb light, it still looks like you copied an existing design. The fact that you came up with it is irrelevant if somebody else came up with it before you.

Unless you can work something out with Toby, I think additional changes and renaming are in order.


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## stjohn

Borealis: Well I am going to have to respectfully disagree with you on all of those counts! If people think I simply copied another product why would they be interested in my design if it that's all it was? As I said at the beginning of this thread I would make further details available when I had them which so far I have not done. I have acted perfectly honorably and simply asked the guys here what they thought of my design. I am sorry some people don't like that. 

best regards, 
stjohn


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## borealis

stjohn said:


> Borealis: Well I am going to have to respectfully disagree with you on all of those counts! If people think I simply copied another product why would they be interested in my design if it that's all it was? As I said at the beginning of this thread I would make further details available when I had them which so far I have not done. I have acted perfectly honorably and simply asked the guys here what they thought of my design. I am sorry some people don't like that.


People would be interested because the other bead is not available for purchase at this time, and people probably didn't even know it existed. Now that everyone knows, you'll see interest in your product drop simply out of respect for another forum member and his product. I'm not a legal expert and am against many forms of IP protections in general. You can disagree all you want, but you don't sound like a legal expert either. Potential legal issues aside, it's just uncool and perhaps unethical of you to offer an extremely similar product with an extremely similar name. I'm looking forward to your further details when and if they become available, and I can only hope that you address these concerns.


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## stjohn

Hi Borealis,
many thanks for your reply. I sincerely appreciate your thoughts and comments even if mine differ. My thoughts disagree based on intellectual property law, not my personal opinion. My 'zip pull' is my own design, I put up the design for comment and feedback, not marketing and sale. I am not qualified to give feedback about i.p (intellectual property law) so I don't give it...

Many thanks for your feedback!

cheers, stjohn


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## toby_pra

As i already wrote you in my Email, its still NOT legal to copy
designs, even without a patent. Thats the law in EU...

Borealis, many thanks for your words. I think the same
and told that the OP in my Emails. I dont and cant believe
that the same designs are only concidencly the same.
At that point i would change my design...

I really hope you change your design from mine.
That gives you a better start here and avoids me 
to start legal action here in Germany.

Btw, if i saw it correctly at youtube, you already
offer this design for sale with a pricing! Again you 
do not have any permission from my side!


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## stjohn

Hi Toby,
I asked you privately to provide me with details of your intellectual property infringement allegations and you did not. Making false allegations like you have done in this thread i.e. 'I have a patent' when you don't is actually against the law. If you really want to take that line of action I respectfully suggest you do seek legal advice. I won't comment any further here. I hope your feelings will change in this regard. It is my wish simply to add something to this great community and again I state clearly I did not copy your design.

best regards,
stjohn


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## toby_pra

Stjohn,

Dont go that way. Dont mess things up!!!
And NEVER subordinate me again to lie! There 
is no need to send you my private documents.
I dont know you, the only thing i know is, that 
you designed "randomly" a beadbomb like mine
and call it nearly same!

Sure i wont send you a copy of a legal document of my Geschmacksmuster
that protects my design for 5years from last autumm!!! There
is absolutly NO need for! I dont trust you!!! Also without a patent
it would be against the law to copy designs, as i already told
you several times! Its enuogh now!


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## Nice65

stjohn said:


> Guys,
> I worked on my own design and developed it myself. I did not copy Toby's design. My 'bead bomb' is quite a bit different to Toby's. It is a progression from a number of models. When finished I will post it up and you can decide for yourselves...
> 
> cheers,
> stjohn





> I worked on my own design and developed it myself.



Only Post #1 shows any originality.



> I did not copy Toby's design.



Yes you did. 



> My 'bead bomb' is quite a bit different to Toby's.



No it isn't, it's a blatant rip-off. 



> It is a progression from a number of models



Well, let's see them then.

It's a copy.


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## nbp

As I stated before, we are all visiting this thread because we like and want Ti trit beads! We don't hope to chase away a new member with the ability to create cool stuff for us!

We simply feel that the one proposed here is too similar to another one offered by an established member to support its production and sale. 

I for one am still hoping for another design from stjohn that can appease our lust for Ti without steping on any toes. 

I believe it can and should be done.


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## jcalvert

Hello Mr. St John Goldfinger,

I've been reading this thread since it’s inception July 15th, I am quite fascinated by your lack of expressed concern regarding what looks by many to be, at the very least, a highly questionable coincidence. Although I won't suggest you intentionally copied another's design, the similarities between the two beads are highly suspect. In an attempt to resolve this controversy, let's take a look at some relevant facts.

>In the OP (opening post) you state "I just designed and made a tritium zip pull". It contains four tritium cells, 2mmx10mm each".

>In post #9 you state, "Time wise it took about a week or two on and off to design and develop the idea then make the prototype".

>In post #15, only three days after introduction of the prototype, you state "ok, I have made some design changes! I will put up some pictures here to show you. *I would like to take pre-orders** if that is possible. It will be a 3 trit, titanium material, bead blast finish zip pull coming in at around 30 euros - 5 euro discount for pre-orders*. anodising will also be possible (standard colours). Trits will be secured in place and protected with a clear potting compound (norland or similar). Shipping is from europe to anywhere".

>In post #20, you state, "*I* *think* *this will be the final design* (youtube animation) :http://youtu.be/k4UlwJQY42o I have spent quite a bit of time on this and have all the manufacturing processes in place ready to go". *Taking pre-orders now* for an approx 3/4 week delivery time.

> In post #58, you state, “many thanks for your reply. I sincerely appreciate your thoughts and comments even if mine differ. My thoughts disagree based on intellectual property law, not my personal opinion. My 'zip pull' is my own design, *I put up the design for comment and feedback, not marketing and sale*. I am not qualified to give feedback about i.p (intellectual property law) so I don't give it...
*You may want to review what you wrote in post #15*.

> In post #20, you stated, “The *"final design"* with a link to a YouTube animation of the bead.  I can’t help being amazed by this substantial transformation from the prototype to this “final design”. My amazement extends further to the controversial likeness to Toby’s design.

> In post #22, you provide a picture of *“the tritium bead bomb".*

> The name of Toby's design, introduced in December, 2011 is the *"Titanium-Bead-Bomb (The Tritiumbead)**.*

> You live in Muenster, Germany.

> Toby lives in Berlin, Germany.

> Toby's design was posted on YouTube for the world to see On December 13, 2011.

> Toby posted his design for sale on the CPF Marketplace with two production runs. The first beginning 12/03/2011, with all units being sold by March, 2012, and the second commencing 4/01/2012 until all units sold in less than three weeks.

> In post #20 of Toby's first run sales thread *here*, Toby states, "*Design is already patented*". What he was attempting to describe is that he has essentially the German equivalent of a “*design patent*” for his Titanium-Bead-Bomb, known as the "Geschmackmuster". The Geschmackmuster refers to a registered community design, which provides protection from intellectual property theft for up to 25 years.

To legally circumvent Toby’s design, you would have to meet the EU’s standard for a new “Design”. Therefore, for your design not to be considered a violation, it would have to meet the standards for “Novel”, as well as “Individual Character” as defined by law, and furthermore judged as such by the “informed user”. I would argue that the majority of the CPF members who have posted on this thread, have clearly expressed that your design would not meet the aforementioned standards.

However, I would venture that many here would support “nbp’s” concisely stated sentiment in post #63 above. As I made clear in the beginning, I will not suggest you intentionally copied Toby’s design, as others have echoed. But if you persist down this path, you will have to accept the consequences which may include not being able to garner support for your position, or your zipper bead.

Those are some of the facts that firmly establish Toby's design was first out of the gate with a novel design of individual character, which is at the very least protected by the EU’s community design laws for intellectual property.

These same facts also quite convincingly suggest that your "final design" used proprietary elements of Toby's design. These elements, in particular the "sidepipes", are critical to the differentiation of Toby's design, which Toby has clearly stated is protected under German and EU law with his Geschmackmuster.

Again, I won't suggest you intentionally copied another's design, but I won't suggest you didn't. However, I would suggest you rethink your stance on the matter. You have better options, the most prudent of which may be to concede the similarities between your design and Toby's. Consistent with the claim you made in post #56, “I have acted perfectly honorably”, you should once again act honorably and simply scratch the design you choose to finalize for pre-orders, and use the considerable resources at your disposal. After all, as you stated in post #9, "*Well my job is as a design and production engineer and this is what I do all the time. I also love doing it so that is a big advantage for me*".

There is no point in exacerbating this controversy. Conflicts in design happen all the time, but then when designers come to realize they have inadvertently created a substantially similar design to a previously established one, as a matter of course and honor, it is common practice to concede these facts and move on.

There is a market here for anyone with a novel design, but it must be for something that does not incorporate any of Toby’s protected design elements, such that “informed users” won’t consider a copy. Use that big advantage you have declared to create a whole new and exciting design.

In fact, I'm really curious why you didn’t go with the prototype you showed us in the OP? As a zipper pull, the fact that the fours sides were slightly concave certainly made sense in terms of grip. And although the effectiveness of the tritium vials you used in the prototype would probably not be of much value as markers in my opinion, they are appealing to many here in this forum as a preferred design feature.

You might want to reconsider putting the prototype back up for consideration. But this time wait until you have sufficient feedback from members before you decide anything further.

Here’s hoping you decide on a do-over!

All the best,
John Calvert


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## gunga

I'd still like to see the final product. I'm also wondering how one patents a zipper pull?


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## Silgt

I will absolutely NOT condone blatant copying of another's product but we live in a real world where such thing happens and it is left to consumers to decide with their own wallets whether they support such kind of practice? Will I buy a badly made Chinese iPad clone? Most definitely not because the actual iPad is well designed and have a proprietary software (unique selling point) to make them different from those clones. But like Gunga mentioned, morality aside is it even possible to copyright a simple zip puller? how about daily used items such as buttons? zips? calculators? a phone's keypad? a fan?...you get the point I'm trying to make!

I'm sure it is not difficult for stjohn to come out with a few more interesting designs or shapes of zip puller and get on with quickly bringing them out to the market rather than being tied down with this copycat issues here. Bottom line is this is a small market for a low value item and its not worth the hassle to introduce solicitors or IP lawyers from both side. It is a no win situation for both parties and consumers if the situation remains a status quo for much longer.

I just wanna buy well designed, quality made tritium zip pullers at a reasonable price...can we get on with it???


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## toby_pra

Hi John!Where do you get to know, that the OP lives in Münster?Very very intersting...IRRC i sold a beadbomb to him in another forum with another sysonym.I appreciate your words and thuoghts very much. There are lotof questions that cant be really anwsered by the [email protected] I can patent anything i want! New thuoghts, ideas, designs etc. It is usually and not really a problem to patent thinks like azipper [email protected] silgtI really really would like to ask you, not to talk of a low budgetproduct...this is not really low budget and it stands for a lot of work. Every work and design.Btw, i asked i my first post here the OP for another design,if he has so much ideas and protos already it would be niceto see them. I already believe that we need more cool designsand edc gadgets here.


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## Silgt

Toby, your ideas, thoughts & expenses that you put in to design the original should be appreciated. I have not an opportunity to buy your beadbomb previously but we have traded a few lights & lanterns so I know the quality and what you stand for! so *IF* you have previously sold a beadbomb to stjohn, then it is without a doubt an attempt to blatantly copy your design and the argument should stop here! It is clearer now and you are correct...the OP should step forward and offer more clarification.

Anyway...please roll forward your BeadBomb version II...I'll be ready this time!


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## toby_pra

I am not really sure...but i remember the Name some way.
I need to check when i am back at home from my journey...

At the end i wanted to mention, that every unique design
stands for a lot of work.


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## precisionworks

toby_pra said:


> At the end i wanted to mention that every unique design stands for a lot of work.


I'm eager to see your new design


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## MoreToasties

toby_pra said:


> Hi John!Where do you get to know, that the OP lives in Münster?Very very intersting...IRRC i sold a beadbomb to him in another forum with another sysonym.



If that's the case, I think that's the final nail in the coffin. Even if you don't pursue legal action, I very much doubt that anyone here (and I suspect CPF is the #1 market for these things) will buy anything from Mr. St John given the facts.


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## gunga

Sorry, what is the relavance of living in Munster?


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## jcalvert

toby_pra said:


> *Hi John!Where do you get to know, that the OP lives in Münster?*Very very intersting...IRRC i sold a beadbomb to him in another forum with another sysonym.



Hello Toby,

I hope all is well with you and yours!

To answer your question, Mr. Goldfinger himself opened the door to his identity in post #9 of this thread when he proclaimed himself as the inventor of "*Schmoolz*". A simple search of the Schmoolz website lead me to his *Facebook* page, where he includes his location as Muenster, Germany. 

While looking through the Schmoolz website, I also noted the following paragraph extracted from the "Legal Stuff" page seen *here.* 



> Intellectual Property
> 7. The names, images and logos identifying the Schmoolz Company or third parties and their products and services are subject to copyright, design rights and trade marks of the Schmoolz Company. Nothing contained in these terms shall be construed as conferring by implication, estoppel or otherwise any licence or right to use any trademark, patent, design right or copyright of the Schmoolz Company.



Best wishes,
John


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## jcalvert

Hello gunga,

After a little research, I simply had a hunch, which "may" have been confirmed by Toby in post #67.

Regarding your question, "...*I'm also wondering how one patents a zipper pull*?" You may find *this* resource helpful.

John


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## stjohn

Wow! What can I say. That is a crazy story. Apologies for using a name Toby originally used. I thought it was a general term and had no idea that it would create such a storm or cause offense - I say that from a personal point of view, legally anyone can use that term. Thanks for you thoughts John, respectfully received but I would dispute them (not trying to be smart but just keeping it short and to the point). You must have spent quite a bit of time on that, you could simply have sent me an email, [email protected] and I would have replied  - please feel free to call me stjohn!

Intellectual property law is complicated and I have had to learn about it. I advise others to do the same if they are interested. I am not an expert but I have paid for expert advice which is why I know a little about it. Again I say I am not qualified in any way to comment on legal issues and will not do so. I have not tried to hide my identity and did not buy a bead bomb from Toby as he falsely claims.

As I already said I will produce final details when ready (if wanted) - I am ready but this thread made me think twice before posting them. I am confident I will be able to bring good products and new developments to this forum just like many other skilled guys here that people will want.

have a good evening!

cheers, stjohn


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## Nice65

stjohn said:


> Wow! What can I say. That is a crazy story. Apologies for using a name Toby originally used. I thought it was a general term and had no idea that it would create such a storm or cause offense - I say that from a personal point of view, legally anyone can use that term. Thanks for you thoughts John, respectfully received but I would dispute them (not trying to be smart but just keeping it short and to the point). You must have spent quite a bit of time on that, you could simply have sent me an email, [email protected] and I would have replied  - please feel free to call me stjohn!
> 
> Intellectual property law is complicated and I have had to learn about it. I advise others to do the same if they are interested. I am not an expert but I have paid for expert advice which is why I know a little about it. Again I say I am not qualified in any way to comment on legal issues and will not do so. I have not tried to hide my identity and did not buy a bead bomb from Toby as he falsely claims.
> 
> As I already said I will produce final details when ready (if wanted) - I am ready but this thread made me think twice before posting them. I am confident I will be able to bring good products and new developments to this forum just like many other skilled guys here that people will want.
> 
> have a good evening!
> 
> cheers, stjohn



Well, that seems to have addressed the issue. Well done.


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## toby_pra

stjohn,

its not the same name, its the sum of all points.


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## Dizos

As a consumer of titanium/tritium items I'm all for competition and innovation. However, design copying is bad for both. StJohn, you are a relatively new member here, I hope you do not tarnish your reputation in this way. If this is somehow just a really weird coincidence, IMO, you should still honor the fact that an established craftsman has already designed and offered a nearly identical item on this forum. To argue minor design differences flies in the face of the obvious. So if you are looking for consumer opinions, you got mine.


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## stjohn

Hi Dizos,
to be perfectly honest I just wanted to leave this be but it seems that is not to be the case. I will not be bullied. I enjoy designing products and will continue to do so - is that ok?
I have had at least 10 different people email me asking a variety of probing questions, presumably put up to this by Toby unless of course it is somehow just a weird coincidence...

Your posts: 144 in approximately 12 years..
My posts: 28 in two weeks..
I promise you I will add much to this community.

Established craftsmen - how come? Toby either deliberately misleads you guys here or knows nothing about machining. Read his posts. I am a mechanical engineer, all aspects of my product such as design, development and manufacture are controlled by me. If you want to believe things that simply are not true, suit yourself.

Copy: A duplicate, imitation, reproduction, or transcript of an original..
I pride myself on innovation, price and quality. When my product is available buy it or don't. It has a number of unique features never seen before. People who value the aforementioned virtues will decide for themselves.

Many thanks for your opinion, I respect and appreciate it. I give you some facts, not opinions..

have a great day.
cheers, Stjohn


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## gunga

Still looking forward to checking out your work st John.


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## toby_pra

> Established craftsmen - how come? Toby either deliberately misleads you guys here or knows nothing about machining. Read his posts. I am a mechanical engineer, all aspects of my product such as design, development and manufacture are controlled by me. If you want to believe things that simply are not true, suit yourself.



*HOW longe do i need to accept these insults and accusations???

Where mods are you?

*I NEVER said that i am a engineer; i am leo. You have read my posts? Read my posts!
I always told that this is my design idea, a good freind of mine is an engineer and
converts my ideas and these will be milled by a german milling department
with an very good reputaion. That was never secret.

I do anodize, beadblast them, put lanyards on it, and i put the tritium in it, fix
it with norland, all learned by myself.

Whats your problem man!!! First you copy me design, then you blame me!


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## Robocop

Gentlemen I have not read through this thread completely however briefly skimming over it I can see there are some problems. I have no idea if any moderation has been issued however none the less it appears that there should be.

Honestly much of this should be discussed by PM and until I can read through all of it I suggest to all involved to simply stop with the drama. Mostly CPF has a policy to not become involved with private transactions however it is often necessary to moderate threads where the content of the thread will disrupt the group as a whole. 

As far as any misconduct is concerned our members here are smart enough to decide on their own and should be allowed to do so without any insults or drama. Honestly I would like to catch up on this much more before taking any action. It may be possible that no action need be taken other than to warn everyone involved to remain civil. Again transactions between members usually work themselves out however rudeness, speculation, and insults will not be tolerated.

For now my response to this is more along the lines of a fellow member rather than that of a moderator. If there is in fact some type of patent violation by all means follow up with some action with the proper persons. If there is not proper evidence to support such a claim then it is what it is and each member can decide to either support or not support any certain person.

Again we at CPF will try hard to remain neutral on these type situations however if it becomes a source of trouble for the membership we will have no choice. I feel sure those involved know how to be adults and can resolve this without speculation or insults. Carry on gentlemen and allow me a little time to read through this please.


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## toysareforboys

Very professional reply Robocop!!

I hope you have a stronger opinion once you read the entire thread.

If I was a mod, as a "penalty" to St. John for coming up with such a "similar" design, punishment would be that St. John would have to give credit to, and a link to, any of Toby's current products (possibly not even related to the pulls, if he chooses to no longer manufacture them) in ANY of his posts, like every single post, maybe as a signature, as well as any "for sale" postings, etc. 

Harsh I know, but hey, Toby was here first 

And Toby, please, four crits in your new design!!!

-Jamie M.


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## Silgt

Why should St.John be "penalized" until he can show his final work and disclose his designing process? If he indeed did infringed on Toby's original design, then members will make their own choice with their wallets, or Toby could indeed take proper legal actions, or they could work it out by themselves. But I would think St.John, being an engineer should be able to come out with a different design with a unique signature all to its own so we don't have to have these dramas here!

I have not the privilege to hold Toby's original design but only seen them via photographs and at first glance they might looked similar but since St.John have already mentioned his design is different, and right now I am not in a position to tell until I can compare both side by side....work it out guys I don't think it is so bad that proper negotiations cannot take place behind the scene to resolve this. We the community will benefit with better and more cost effective products being made available!


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## Robocop

As a group we should not have to have to figure out the details of patents or design. Yes they are of very similiar design and I have no idea if they are different enough to satisfy any claimed patent filing. My point on this is simple and it is that if it is a valid violation then to the patent holder move forward with whatever decision you wish however do so away from this forum.

If it is a known violation then to you stjohn I suggest you make sure and know the rules of this forum on illegal activities. I am trying to stay neutral to both parties however if worst comes to worst I will shut down the entire process simply for no other reason than to keep our forum free from heated dispute.

As a fellow member I have my personal opinion that I will keep to myself. As a moderator again I must remain neutral and do what is best for this forum as a whole. Gentlemen I do feel for you both and again stress that this issue can be worked out in private. If legal action must follow it should not include the forum members as this will obviously create two distinct sides and lead to trouble among us all.

As far as any unique punishments are concerned we simply do not do that. The choices are simple as in it usually begins with a warning then advances to a few days away or if need be a permanent ban from our group. History has shown us that if we allow things to "brew" it results in major disruptions with the whole forum. I say this again to all involved simply do what is right. If you do not wish to do it for yourself or for me do it for the forum as a whole. 

To the other spectators I understand your intentions may be good however to add speculation does nothing but cause others to do the same. Eventually we have many angry members over something that simply did not have to be. As far as new products and competition being good for us all I agree to a point. If it is a violation of criminal, civil, or patent laws then we would all be guilty of being selfish to allow that for our personal purchasing of new toys.

I have read this through and again as a member formed my own opinion. As a moderator I have no way of proving a violation exist and as such for now will warn all involved to keep this in private. If I have reason to move forward I will do so however keep in mind I do not need others piling on what they think we should do based on speculation.

I will discuss with my fellow mods and perhaps they may add something to this however for now it is simple.....keep the insults,speculation, and emotion away from this thread. Good luck gentlemen.


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## toby_pra

To me its simple...there is a similar design. In no
way different enuogh to talk of an own design. Many 
people here think the same.

And as it is not by far enuogh he blames me and 
talks of misleading. I cant believe it. He does not stop.
I thuoght its enuogh now...


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## Robocop

Toby trust me I understand however again if indeed you have a legal grounds in your country to move forward do so and I will keep the drama from this thread. If in fact I find reason to believe others are misleading our members or in violation of any laws I will take action.

I know many here think the same however allowing our members to choose sides is only asking for trouble in many ways. If the majority of our members agree with you they can do so in many ways other than stirring the pot here. This is an issue that can effect our group here in a positive way as much as a negative way. I assure you that if we allow our members to whip this into a frenzy it can only have one effect and that will be in a bad way.

I do agree it is enough now and as such I have stepped in to stop the insults and rude behavior. As far as the actual dispute we have no way of knowing the true details at this time. Give me a little time to discuss this issue and there may be future moderation coming. As for now I do trust my addition to this thread is very well understood.

To all other members please leave your opinions to yourself for now and to Toby and stjohn try to discuss this by PM or email. If you have anything to add or simply disagree please contact me by PM. I work late shift and will not be available until later tonight....thanks for the time.

After further thought I have decided to close this thread and ask any further discussion be taken to private.


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