# Have we witnessed the death of the audiophile? ...



## cmeisenzahl (Jun 6, 2008)

Adieu to the true audiophile? | Tech news blog - CNET News.com
"I'd bet the average person under 30 hasn't purchased a serious home stereo system in the last five years. And it's not because they don't like music. Quite the opposite, actually. The popularity of online streaming music sites, rise of music blogs, and skyrocketing digital music sales from places like iTunes, Wal-Mart.com, and Amazon.com show that young people are voracious music consumers."
http://news.cnet.com/8301-10784_3-9950368-7.html?part=rss&subj=news&tag=2547-1_3-0-20


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## ABTOMAT (Jun 6, 2008)

What we're seeing is the average consumer no longer care about sound quality like they used to. The actual audiophile market isn't going anywhere, if anything it's growing in intensity. The gap between the low and high end is growing. Some people just don't care any more, others are spending the same time/money on home theater instead of 2-channel sound. While at the same time, the hardcore segmet gets even more hardcore--McIntosh just came out with their first turntable in the 60-year history of the company and it costs about $7000.

I'm seeing a few young folks in the audio circles I'm in. So it's attracting some of the young market, just not as much as it should. By the way, I'm under 30 and over the last couple years I've put together a stereo worth more than my SUV.


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## Dynacolt (Jun 6, 2008)

I've spent the past 20 years building up an audiophile system, replacing and upgrading piece by piece.
I've also tried iPod, Creative, Sony, Toshiba and a few generic portable players (only the sony had anything close to acceptable audio) and I always return to my loungeroom outfit.
I've spolied myself, and anything else grates on my ears (and I don't claim to have 'golden ears').
It's probably true most young people will never consider a real hifi, but I guess they know know different.
But I doubt the true audiophile will disappear, and I doubt the esoteric equipment will disappear, just as classical music hasn't disappeared despite pop and the digital age swamping the global market for so many years.
An indication of this is the rebirth of turntable manufacture, and the significant increase in production of audiophile vinyl records.
Dave.


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## shakeylegs (Jun 6, 2008)

I heard a report recently that "vinyl" is making a comeback across demographics. Perhaps the reason Macintosh has released their turntable.


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## LEDninja (Jun 6, 2008)

The decline of the audiophile started long before the iPod changed the way kids listened to music. The stereo makers never made the change over to the 5.1 sound systems of integrated home entertainment systems. They think of their stereo systems and the TVs as 2 separate things. When Music Videos became the norm for promoting music, the sellers of home entertainment systems (TV plus integrated 5.1 sound system) have the advantage over pure audio systems.
I have the Brittney Spears DVD and cannot play it on my main stereo system.

Also audiophile systems manufacturers have been promoting BIG sized components. Imagine trying to fit 5 Quad electrostatic speakers (4 feet wide by 3 feet tall, later models 3 feet wide by 5 feet tall; they also need a fair amount of space behind them) and a subwoofer into the average living room.

Good quality portable sound has been around for awhile, first with the walkman, then with portable CD players. These did not affect the audiophile makers that much as stereo systems come with cassette recorders and CD players. But they were slow to come out with built in iPod docks.
Also many inexpensive reasonable quality speakers are now available for the iPod. I bought a Spongebob Squarepants folding speakers for $15. They do not have much base due to the small size but the speaker units have long throw neoprene surround just like the audiophile ones. Except for the lack of thump the speakers hold their own against speakers 10X the price. At 2"x2"x3" folded up they are very transportable. There are bigger units same speakers with tuned port systems that should provide full range sound.

-----

That is just plain snobbery. Don't need $7000 to build a good turntable.
It's just like Aston Martin selling their cars in the US not because it is the best engineered car but because it's hood ornament is made of Sterling Silver. "People notice these things." commented the US sales manager in the article I read.
While he was building his stereo system my brother went to the top audiophile dealer in Toronto to audition the McIntosh class A amp (Everybody else was using a class B amp which in theory is more noisy). He came back disappointed. "I can hear the cooling fan!" he said.


ABTOMAT said:


> McIntosh just came out with their first turntable in the 60-year history of the company and it costs about $7000.


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## Steve K (Jun 6, 2008)

LEDninja said:


> Also many inexpensive reasonable quality speakers are now available for the iPod. I bought a Spongebob Squarepants folding speakers for $15. They do not have much base due to the small size but the speaker units have long throw neoprene surround just like the audiophile ones. Except for the lack of thump the speakers hold their own against speakers 10X the price. At 2"x2"x3" folded up they are very transportable. There are bigger units same speakers with tuned port systems that should provide full range sound.
> 
> 
> > Well, I never expected "audiophile" and "SpongeBob Squarepants" to show up in the same paragraph!
> ...


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## ABTOMAT (Jun 6, 2008)

The decline of hi-fi audio did start long ago but it had nothing to do with surround sound. Mass-market quality audio gear started into a tailspin in the early '80s. People lost interest in fancy stereo systems after the huge boom of the late '70s and the manufacturers responded by making trash. The only companies to stick with high quality gear in the '80s were either really high-end established brands (McIntosh, Klipsch, etc) or small outfits looking to capitalize on the situation (Adcom, Polk, et al.) Previously reputable makers like Pioneer, Kenwood, even Phase Linear went to pot.

Massively high-end 5.1 and 7.1 surround systems have been available, and lots of people have them. You can get a stack of monoblock amps hooked up to a pre/pro and knock yourself out. Polk made a $10,000 5-channel surround speaker system in the early-mid '90s. But for pure music listening it all comes back to 2-channel stereo.

Quad ESLs and monsters like that aren't all the high end has to offer. Check out all the small speakers from outifts like B&W, Mission, NHT. Good stuff, expensive, and available in quite small sizes. You just don't see much of it because the middle-ground hifi consumer has largely dissapeared.

iPod docks used with high-end systems are more of an afterthought than a feature. A couple companies make iPod preamps but they're sort of a novelty item. Most people who want to use an iPod with a real stereo just do it the simple way with a adapter cable. Someone actually interested in audiophile-grade digital music will either use a music server or a PC with a good sound output card.

"Long throw neoprene surrounds" are not an audiophile feature. More cone excursion leads to more distortion. A certian flexability is required unless you're working with huge efficent speakers like Klipschorns, but it's not something to be strived for by itself.

I never said it took $7000 to make a good turntable, I said they were selling one for that. It's an indication of a level of interest in true hi-fi gear still exists. You can buy a $100,000 if you want to, they're out there.

I don't recall McInotsh making a Class A amp. Even their big iron is Class AB like most other makers, although they do use autoformer output. Some of their tube amps might have a single-ended setting but I'm not sure.


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## jtr1962 (Jun 6, 2008)

Steve K said:


> As an electrical engineer, I'm a bit amazed that the preferences have turned towards old technology such as vinyl records and tube amps.


You and me both. I totally don't understand this myself given that modern equipment can reproduce any sound just as well, and with far less bulk. Then again, to me even the speakers on my LCD monitor sound just fine. However, my main impetus for accurate sound reproduction is when I'm using a train simulator as I really don't listen to music at all. One problem I find with all "high-end" sound systems is that invariably they're designed to have their best response when turned up really LOUD. To my ears even a 3 watt speaker turned way up is painful. My mom's home theater system is a case in point. Neither of us can stand it much beyond perhaps 20% volume. I just couldn't imagine listening to multihundred watt speakers.

As for tubes, some say the tube filaments vibrate with the music and cause pleasant harmonics. Possibly true, but I'd imagine we can reproduce the same thing electronically if we wanted to. I think vinyl records/tube amplifiers is a _preference_ similar to those who prefer incandescent lighting. It's a preference for aesthetics over accuracy. Modern digital systems can reproduce sound with perfect accuracy, and certain high CRI light sources can come close to reproducing sunlight. Apparently some people just prefer "something else" in both cases. I totally don't understand it, but as Spock often said, humans are illogical. To my ears I remember the old vinyl records and tube amplifiers sounding "blurry" (can't think of a better word). I really think what we have today is a huge improvement in terms of size, power consumption, and sound quality but apparently others see it differently. Perhaps vinyl/tubes are just another facet of the obnoxious "retro" trend which has been with us for quite some time. You see all kinds of home applicances designed to mimic the 1950s, and homes built with silly fake window panes. Sometimes I feel like I'm stuck in the movie Harrison Bergeron. It's a shame we don't see more things designed from a fresh, 21st century perspective rather than trying to imitate old, obsolete technology.


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## Stereodude (Jun 6, 2008)

cmeisenzahl said:


> "I'd bet the average person under 30 hasn't purchased a serious home stereo system in the last five years."


I guess I'm not average.


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## LightBen (Jun 6, 2008)

I don't consider myself an audiophile, but I do appreciate good sound (my interest is more on the recording end). Here are my comments as an electrical engineer, for what they are worth: there is some really awful equipment at the lower-end. This has always been true--it's just that the low end seems to be getting even less expensive. There is some pretty decent mid-range equipment, but it generally uses amplifier topologies that do not appeal to the "purist." What about tubes? Well, my personal feeling is this: if you have two amplifiers--one tube and one solid state--and both involve significant design compromises, then the tube amp may well sound "better." However, I believe that there is little audible difference between an optimized tube amp design and an optimized solid-state amp. I've seen guitar amps that have a switch to switch between a solid-state rectifier and a tube rectifier in the power supply section... (the rectifier converts the incoming AC to pulsating DC--it's not in the audio chain! Some people go a little nuts about this stuff.) Don't get me started on the "this speaker cable sounds better" nonsense! 

As for my own personal audio gear... I've obtained most of it over the past decade or so as folks I know have decided to "upgrade" to bookshelf systems, etc. My receiver is an old Nikko model with IC-based preamps and a class-A power section. I do have two turntables. Do they sound better than CD? I don't know; they sound different, but CDs are more "accurate." I'm still a fan of minidisc for making field recordings (oh, no! Lossy compression! Well, I can't hear *any* difference between a CD master and a first-generation minidisc copy). My 30+ year-old Teac 1/4" quarter-track reel-to-reel deck sounds fantastic, but I don't use it too often. My main audio source for my stereo these days is my... Ipod!

My final assessment: no, the "true" audiophile isn't dead--just the general fad in which everybody wanted to be one. Now, people value convenience and expense (or lack thereof) over quality. True audiophiles will remain.


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## scott011422 (Jun 6, 2008)

I do agree. I do setups for my friends and they would rather have it loud that sound good. And what the customer wants, they get. Granted, my system cost twice what theirs did and isn't nearly as loud, but the sound quality doesn't even compair.

I read online about records comming back and such. And I laugh at the fact that most of them claim they like the old tech better because of the "Noise" They don't like the pure filtered sound we have now. They want the acustic artifacts, and the warbles and all the other extra noise you get with needles and tubes............But I laugh more at the fact when they are so pompus that their records sound better than our cd's....But only when they are played on their 5+ grand audio setup. Now, I'll admit, I've heard one or two of these systems, and they do sound nice. But not only is their stuff huge and take up lots of room aswell as generate a buttload of heat, but it took 5+ grand of equipment to make a record sound better than my 390 dollar 2000 watt JVC system. Thats 12 times the money!!!! And it wasn't a night and day difference either. But it did sound better.....For 12x more than I spent. So in the end, for me, its apples to oranges.


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## HoopleHead (Jun 6, 2008)

audiophile here! or at least as much as i can.

also a big vinyl fan.

analog > digital.


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## Black Rose (Jun 6, 2008)

Steve K said:


> Well, I never expected "audiophile" and "SpongeBob Squarepants" to show up in the same paragraph!


I almost spit out a mouthful of tea when I read that. 



> I'm a bit amazed that the preferences have turned towards old technology such as vinyl records and tube amps. My belief is that modern technology could be used to produce sound as good as vinyl & tubes, but perhaps that just isn't where the mass market is.


I wonder if part of it might be the lack of decent music being released these days and people are digging out their old music, while others might be discovering their parents old music collection, particularly things that never made it to CD and the digital world.

I still have my 120+ albums, but my turntable gave up the ghost after 24 years, so I can't listen to them now. My 24 year old Technics receiver still works fine. My hearing is not as good as it used to be. 

In my own home, our main system now is a 5.1 home thatre system. 
Our casual listening system went from full blown Yamaha stereo systems to a pair of Teac table radios with iPod docs and XM radios fed through the auxiliary inputs.

I never considered myself to be an audiophile, but I did make choices to buy quality gear for my big systems.


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## PhantomPhoton (Jun 6, 2008)

While I have bought home stereo equipment in the past 5 years (barely) it has never been in pursuit of hifi sound. I think I fit more into the common young school of thought in that audio quality really doesn't matter all that much. I remember degrading audio quality on cassette tapes, but cd's and eventually digital music changed that. Audio quality dropped off the radar to the masses afterwards.

I have a 6.1 DTS ES capable system because that's all I need to enjoy a good DVD movie or video game. Surroundsound is much more important to me than fidelity in music. While music is a part of my generation, it isn't as much of a central part of popular entertainment... not like I assume it was 40, 50 years ago. Movies and Video games rule my generation.

To be honest I can't tell the difference between a decent mp3 and CD. I can easily pick out a tape or record but to my ears (sorry audiophiles) they sound worse. I have an audiophile buddy (with far too much money to throw around) with whom I've done some music sampling. I believe that because it is what I've gotten used to over the past 15 years, I prefer a song from a digital source over an analog source. I like my mp3's on my $700 system far more than vinyl records on his (far more expensive than a sports car) system. I've never asked how much he's thrown at it but i do remember $7k apiece speakers coming up once (got em at a bargain price).

While I'm sure there is a lot my ears haven't been trained to hear I'm quite happy with what I have. :wave:


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## Paladin (Jun 6, 2008)

Gratuitous photo of my McIntosh MC-240 tube amp. It was stuck inside an old hifi console, bought at the thrift store for $50! Driving a pair of University 15 inch fullrange speakers in circa '50's EV enclosures it comes close to audio nirvana.

Paladin


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## Steve K (Jun 6, 2008)

PhantomPhoton said:


> To be honest I can't tell the difference between a decent mp3 and CD.
> <...snip...>
> 
> While I'm sure there is a lot my ears haven't been trained to hear I'm quite happy with what I have. :wave:




I think I can sometimes hear a difference between a mp3 and a CD, but I think the issue of trained ears is the key. Hanging around the local hi-fi shop, I can't help but believe that their stuff does sound a bit better than my modest system, but I'll be darned if I know what the difference is.

I've heard of classical musicians that grew up listening to and playing music. Some have developed perfect pitch even. When they say that they can hear the difference between musical instruments or amplifiers/speakers/etc, I tend to trust them. Maybe it's like kids who have playing their sport since they could crawl... the motions and skills are so firmly ingrained in them that a late-comer just can't match them. 

I suspect that with training, a person could learn to hear the subtle differences between equipment. I'm not sure that a preference for a type of difference isn't also learned, just as you tend to adopt preferences for food, fashion, etc. from those around you. Do people like the tube amps used in their stereo because they were told it sounds better, or maybe because it sounds like amps sounded when they were young? 

The important question might be: are you any happier after learning to hear these subtle differences? Or have you just lost the ability to be happy with mediocre equipment? 

Steve K.
(I'll admit that I still like the sound of my vinyl records, but I'd like them better if I could get rid of the clicks and pops)


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## Kiessling (Jun 6, 2008)

> As an electrical engineer, I'm a bit amazed that the preferences have turned towards old technology such as vinyl records and tube amps. ... (snip) ... You and me both. I totally don't understand this myself given that modern equipment can reproduce any sound just as well, and with far less bulk.



Not true. Vinyl is analogue tech while "modern" stuff is digital, with is just an approximation of analogue. It can never really match.
It is not about the "perfect" sound technically speaking, but psychoacoustically speaking. Tubes are singing with our ears. We love tubes. They war our hearts. Transistor amps won't.





> As for tubes, some say the tube filaments vibrate with the music and cause pleasant harmonics. Possibly true, but I'd imagine we can reproduce the same thing electronically if we wanted to.



You cannot reproduce it. The best and most expensive studio technology is good old analogue hardware. Software and digital stuff comes behind, and software cannot emulate the analogue stuff.
Don't ask me why, I was quite baffled myself when I learned it. o computer can compete with a good tube compressor 

bernie


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## LukeA (Jun 6, 2008)

Kiessling said:


> Not true. Vinyl is analogue tech while "modern" stuff is digital, with is just an approximation of analogue. It can never really match.
> It is not about the "perfect" sound technically speaking, but psychoacoustically speaking. Tubes are singing with our ears. We love tubes. They war our hearts. Transistor amps won't.
> 
> 
> ...



You say those things like there is no advancement of digital technology.


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## Beamhead (Jun 6, 2008)

Recovering Audiophile here, my problem is the good equipment I bought in the 80's still works fine. So I don't purchase anything new, and I refuse to buy an "i" anything.


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## Mike Painter (Jun 6, 2008)

> Not true. Vinyl is analogue tech while "modern" stuff is digital, with is just an approximation of analogue. It can never really match.
> It is not about the "perfect" sound technically speaking, but psychoacoustically speaking. Tubes are singing with our ears. We love tubes. They war our hearts. Transistor amps won't.


You find out, working with analog vs. digital computers that the results are always the same with digital and never with analog. Perhaps it is this lack of precision that they hear.

I'd have to see a lot of double blind studies before I would accept that even a small minority of the people can tell the difference.

I work both  Grass Valley  and Chico music festivals and frequently see people claiming the superiority of their brand of amp sometimes with tubes. But then they stick a mic in front of it and run it through an all digital system so people can hear it and nobody ever complains or even comments on any difference.

In any event it is clear that "better" is fairly sunjective. If you doubt this listen to a Chinese opera.


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## axolotls (Jun 6, 2008)

Mike Painter said:


> You find out, working with analog vs. digital computers that the results are always the same with digital and never with analog. Perhaps it is this lack of precision that they hear.
> 
> I'd have to see a lot of double blind studies before I would accept that even a small minority of the people can tell the difference.
> 
> ...




Modeling is becoming almost perfect now (I am happy with my stuff and it isn't as flaky as when you have tube bias poop all the time). Most musicians (that fought digital tooth and nail) are using pro-tools now because it's 10% the cost and more exacting to get an album out. And almost no one makes $$$ on albums anyways, so get it out, and start touring.


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## Cydonia (Jun 6, 2008)

Of course the audiophile isn't dead, nor is he moribund, or likely to be anytime soon. I used to be a hopeless head-fi forums junky before my CPF days... 

What Happened To Dynamic Range? is an important little article that brings up an often overlooked but critical (common sense) point - the recordings themselves differ vastly.


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## StarHalo (Jun 6, 2008)

I bought this







(http://headphone.com/)

and these






(http://pro.sony.com/bbsc/ssr/product-MDR7506/)

in the last five years :thumbsup:

I also bought the wife an iPod Nano (with inscribing on the back of the case, a free option at the Apple Store http://store.apple.com/us) but that's definitely not audiophile hardware.


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## Dynacolt (Jun 6, 2008)

Cydonia said:


> What Happened To Dynamic Range? is an important little article that brings up an often overlooked but critical (common sense) point - the recordings themselves differ vastly.


I love my vinyl for the clean, live recording methods, the increased dynamic range and clearer separation of instruments. And CDs that are recorded with passion and care, rather than compressed to the upper limits of loudness, and pre-mixed to sound good on an ipod.
I believe digital can sound "audiophile", but with the trend of mp3 and readily-available, affordable digital gear comes a reduction in the quality of all the equiipment in the audio chain, from source microphones to speakers/headphones.
In the end, the output must be analogue for us to listen to it. A quality amplifier with solid accurate speakers will be a "night-and-day" difference compared to an op-amp amplifier coupled to anything not capable of full-range reproduction - even to a non-audiophile. And the same difference exists between "ear-buds" and amp-driven electrostatic headphones.
I enjoy listening to the music, but I get real pleasure when one end of my loungeroom appears to be filled with musicians putting on a show for me, rather than just sound coming out of a box. I agree, the cost of achieving this is significantly higher than an ipod and dock setup, but that's the choice I make because, for me, it is how I like to listen to my music.
Dave.


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## Lit Up (Jun 6, 2008)

> Have we witnessed the death of the audiophile?



I think that would be a safe bet. I mean, how much does one have to invest to listen to an annoyingly loud boom/thump along with the rattle of fiberglass/sheet metal in intervals of every 3 seconds or so?

Not to mention that most new music has took a nosedive unlike any in the history of recordings.


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## Patriot (Jun 6, 2008)

I'm a pretty big Home Theater fan but does that mean that I can't consider myself and audiophile? I have Pioneer Elite components and a Mirage speaker system and still listen to plenty of two channel sound although movies are 5.1 or 7.1. I'm still passionate about the reproduction music at the highest level possible though. 

The original thread quote and many of the posts seems like they're trying to separate two channel music and 7.1 home systems. Anyone with a high end home theater system is a button press away from high quality two channel sound and home theater systems are very common and popular today.

Additionally who says that an audiophile can only listen to stereo? There are some fantastic sound tracks recorded in 5.1 - 7.1 available now. Live music is condensed into two channels only because that's what the technology dictated at the time, but live music in actuality is often more than one channel.

Maybe I don't understand the definition of audiophile anymore or maybe it's changed. :thinking:


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## Dynacolt (Jun 7, 2008)

Patriot36 said:


> who says that an audiophile can only listen to stereo?...
> ...Maybe I don't understand the definition of audiophile anymore or maybe it's changed.


The audiophile has historically adhered to seeking the most faithful reproduction of music, and stereo has always offered this possibility.
I think with the advent of surround sound, and the plethora of "home-theatre-in-a-box" units available from the mass-market stores, there has been a perception that 'surround' cannot not equal 'audiphile'. It can, but instead of an esoteric 2-channel amplifier and a pair of speakers, one must have 5 or 7 channels of quality amplification, numerous extra quality speakers, surround processor etc. Well worth the expense, especially given movie soundtracks tend to exploit the best of digital and dynamics. There is a phenomenal difference between the sound coming from a "home-theatre-in-a-box", and the full theatre exerience of a quality surround system.
I think with the market-flood of average digital recordings and devices, the cinema and live concerts will continue to thrive. For the average mp3 listener, these are sensory nirvana experiences in comparison, for the audiophile, something to try to better in their own homes.

Dave.


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## fnmag (Jun 7, 2008)

There's nothing like the "glow" of thermionic valves. 
One is no longer listening to the sound but rather "being one" with the music. 
:thumbsup:


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## LuxLuthor (Jun 7, 2008)

Audiophiles are not dying. Rather it is simply a case that music noobs do not know what quality is available. Once they experience the quantum shift in great quality they always say they had no idea. It spreads more slowly, but it is very much alive.


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## IMSabbel (Jun 7, 2008)

Dynacolt said:


> I love my vinyl for the clean, live recording methods, the increased dynamic range and clearer separation of instruments.



Sorry, but dynamic range of vinyl is rotten. Where did you get the idea that its better? Or do you consider the noise to be signal? Even 128kbit mp3 is well better in that regard...

Also, "audiophiles dying" really made me feel good, until i read this thread and noticed they are still here


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## NA8 (Jun 7, 2008)

Have we witnessed the death of the audiophile? ... 

I think marketing has had a bad effect on audio. I think back in the early 80's mass marketers moved away from quality sound equipment to cheap 15-30 watt receivers that they sold in mass quantities along with fiberglass and beer. 

On the other extreme someone figured out there's a sucker born every minute or something and we saw an lot of extraordinarily high priced equipment that had dubious merit. Or more accurately, was way overpriced. I'm sure there was no way for the companies to stay in business without charging what they did, but that really doesn't say much for them. 

Anyway, if audio took a big hit over the years, I think marketing had a lot to do with it. 

I miss the days back in the late 70's when Kenwood sold their L07M mono amps with the included 3' speaker cable (the cable was included in the feedback loop of the amplifier). Not to mention their KILLER tuners. Great stuff, relatively cheap. Hell, even Pioneer would sell you a 165 (maybe 250 ?) watt/chn receiver you could barely lift for $400 if you walked into the store when it was on closeout. Did I mention the wood cover ?


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## ABTOMAT (Jun 7, 2008)

The very, very early '80s were the end of the golden age of hifi. I used to have a Marantz 2600 reciever that cost $1600 in 1980. 400W per channel into four ohms, about 65 pounds, fan-cooled, had a built-in oscilloscope. No one was making stuff like that just a year or two later.


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## Dynacolt (Jun 7, 2008)

IMSabbel said:


> Sorry, but dynamic range of vinyl is rotten. Where did you get the idea that its better?


I can't deny I love the convenience of CD, the ease of amplification and the always-clean sound. But comparing albums I have on both CD and vinyl, I almost always prefer the vinyl version.
-Vinyl may not support a huge dynamic range, but too many CDs have been compressed to sound louder - thereby decreasing their effective dynamic range at playback.
-CDs of older albums are often recorded from multi-generation analogue masters, whereas audiophile vinyl is often mastered from much earlier generations of tape.
-Vinyl versions of newer recordings have often been mastered with more care and less compression than their CD counterparts (Norah Jones is a good example).
So, my opinion and experience is that much of the vinyl offerings actually sound better than CD, and have an effectively greater dynamic range, despite the physical limitations of that medium.
Dave.


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## Patriot (Jun 7, 2008)

Dynacolt said:


> The audiophile has historically adhered to seeking the most faithful reproduction of music, and stereo has always offered this possibility.
> I think with the advent of surround sound, and the plethora of "home-theatre-in-a-box" units available from the mass-market stores, there has been a perception that 'surround' cannot not equal 'audiphile'. It can, but instead of an esoteric 2-channel amplifier and a pair of speakers, one must have 5 or 7 channels of quality amplification, numerous extra quality speakers, surround processor etc. Well worth the expense, especially given movie soundtracks tend to exploit the best of digital and dynamics. There is a phenomenal difference between the sound coming from a "home-theatre-in-a-box", and the full theatre exerience of a quality surround system.
> I think with the market-flood of average digital recordings and devices, the cinema and live concerts will continue to thrive. For the average mp3 listener, these are sensory nirvana experiences in comparison, for the audiophile, something to try to better in their own homes.
> 
> Dave.





Dave, you make a good point about the "Home Theater in a box" crowd. Nothing against those who have and enjoy them but like you said, there is no comparison to these types of systems and true, "high end" specially systems which move a lot of air. 



A younger friend of mine in his early 20s is a music maniac and I hardly ever see him without ear buds stuck in his head. The first time he played his music on my system his jaw dropped and I couldn't get him to leave. He came back later that week with more music and wanted to hear all of his favorite tracks on my system. I agree with *Lux* that the new generation of music listeners is fairly clueless as to what something can or should sound like, so in a way they're ignorant until enlightened. That said, I've also heard systems that make mine seem kinda sad but mine if first and foremost geared toward theater sound.


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## Mike Painter (Jun 7, 2008)

Dynacolt said:


> The audiophile has historically adhered to seeking the most faithful reproduction of music, and stereo has always offered this possibility.
> Dave.


I was just thinking about this becasue when stereo was available but records still advertized thy were in stereo, a friend absolutely refused to move from his monphonic system because it was "the most faithful reproduction of music."

Most of the music I hear outside the home is in stereo only when I get to hear them backstage or in the campground.

Something I really enjoy is watching a good blue grass band using a single microphone as they did it in "the old days"
It takes a lot of practice as the distance from the mic determines who has the lead and watching them move in and out is a kick.

A friend of mine and I have tlked about a "digital amphitheater" that would work the way the natrual ones do and project the sound from behind the performers.
We have decisded that there probably would be no need for monitors but the rest of the details will come about Real Soon Now (a polite term for vaporware from the 80's)


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## StarHalo (Jun 7, 2008)

Mike Painter said:


> I was just thinking about this becasue when stereo was available but records still advertized thy were in stereo, a friend absolutely refused to move from his monphonic system because it was "the most faithful reproduction of music."



A lot of those early-adopter stereo LPs were *awful*, usually involved the engineer just putting the vocals and guitars on one side and the drums on the other, sometimes going back and forth from mono to stereo even in the middle of the track.. I would agree that the mono originals of some of those recordings are more faithful.



Mike Painter said:


> Something I really enjoy is watching a good blue grass band using a single microphone as they did it in "the old days"



The modern equivalent of that would be the single room live recording, where the performers just play it live with a mic each, but they're all in the same room, reverberations and all. This sounds so live and energetic if done correctly, a good example being most any recording from one of my favorite bands, the Squirrel Nut Zippers.


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## fireboltr (Jun 7, 2008)

I currently run all Rotel electronics. I.E. pre-amp, amp,cd player,tape deck
Excluding the older technics turntable running shure m97xe stylus
speakers (for the moment trying to save up the coin for axioms) are polk audio rti-150's (they have a tighter transient response than ALOT of thier other speakers but they are amp demanding) 
im running Canare quad star 4x14 for speaker cables 
Monster interlink reference cables
And the not so ear friendly ipod nano (but for a good "random" it works for hours)

Usually i try to download music in lossless only as i can hear a loss in mp3's below 320kbps and burn them to cd as the frequency responce of the rotel cd player is much flatter then anything i have ever heard from apple (whoops i know im putting on the flame suit for that one)


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## 9volt (Jun 7, 2008)

I'm in the "lack of dynamic range is killing new music" camp. I'm sure it's out there, but I've had trouble finding new music that is worth sitting down and listening to. 

That, and most of the time I might have spent listening has been taken up with movies and games. Just last week we watched some movie and it had a really good track at the end with the credits, and I just sat and listened to it thinking I should really spend more time with just music. It hasn't happened.


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## StarHalo (Jun 7, 2008)

For those of you with smokin' full-room systems: An example of the live room recording technique, the aforementioned Squirrel Nut Zippers doing their thing; talk about energy! Guaranteed to put you right in the middle of the performance, download and enjoy (click to hear in your browser or right-click and "Save Link" to download):

http://members.dslextreme.com/users/starhalo/Squirrel_Nut_Zippers_-_Got_My_Own_Thing_Now.mp3

(This is a *swing jazz* track, trumpet, banjo, volume..)


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## fireboltr (Jun 7, 2008)

Dianna Krall live from paris
This has some of the best mixing i have heard in a long long time...

Nadro John beatsurfer
Is extremely vast in dynamic range and mixed well


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## Stereodude (Jun 7, 2008)

Well if the audiophile is someone who buys replacement wooden knobs, CD stabilizing rings, ceramic cable risers, expensive power cords, and megabuck cables then good riddance. On the other hand if an audiophile who enjoys listening to music on a quality system, then no, I don't think we've seen the death.


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## Mike Painter (Jun 7, 2008)

Stereodude said:


> Well if the audiophile is someone who buys replacement wooden knobs, CD stabilizing rings, ceramic cable risers, expensive power cords, and megabuck cables then good riddance. On the other hand if an audiophile who enjoys listening to music on a quality system, then no, I don't think we've seen the death.



Just when I was going to market an inexpensive device that covers the displays on these high end system with something that will make them nicer looking and improve dynamic range by a considerable amount. 
The $9.95 dollar device comes with a money back gar-un-tee. Because of the delicate nature until applied, shipping and handling will be $180.00.
I'm working on a cable wrap for the cables also.


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## Cydonia (Jun 7, 2008)

Thanks for that mp3 StarHalo  

 Here is something interesting as well. Field recordings done with head-worn binaural microphones... Very worth listening to carefully. (I edited out the best sections for my own use - some have become the most favorite pieces I've heard in the last few years  ) Check out their other interesting recordings of excellent quality. 

I'm always looking for new amazing recordings and samples. All suggestions for excellent quality albums or even downloadable files welcome :thumbsup:

One of my all time favorite Compact Discs (since 1996) has been this one. 
(Not because of any special engineering or extraordinary audio)

Early works of Delerium (the side project of Bill Leeb and Rhys Fulber) from between 1989-1994 contain some of the most interesting material I've yet come across. Pure ear candy. The sounds grow on you... 
I consider this to to be the "last" good album of that project. Their next one, though much inferior, has several rather nice tracks which make it somewhat worthy I think. I find _all_ their subsequent works to be unbearable and unpalatable main stream junk.


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## Dynacolt (Jun 7, 2008)

Stereodude said:


> Well if the audiophile is someone who buys replacement wooden knobs...


I love that wooden knob!!!!! it's a hifi quack legend I'm sure (the Silver Rock Signature Knob at $480.00 - it's a little wooden volume knob).
I have always been sceptical of audiophile tweaks; for example, not being able to tell the difference between one vibration isolating cone and another. However, apart from the most obvious psychic and utterly ridiculous 'tweaks' (anything from here - worth a read), what I discovered is most tweaks appear to make little or no difference... that is, until a number are added simultaneously - then the net effect becomes noticable.
The major downside to having a nice room setup is car and portable audio are often unacceptable - Once spoilt, you cannot go back and, like flashlights, the audio bug is addictive 
Dave.
(vinyl enjoyment - Cat Stevens: Tea for the Tillerman, MFSL version!)


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## NA8 (Jun 8, 2008)

Hey, remember this one ? 

"110 watts per channel from 20hz to 20khz both channels driven into 8 ohms with less than 0.01% THD". 

Whatever happened to honest marketing of amps ?


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## fnmag (Jun 8, 2008)

Mike Painter said:


> I was just thinking about this becasue when stereo was available but records still advertized thy were in stereo, a friend absolutely refused to move from his monphonic system because it was "the most faithful reproduction of music."
> 
> Most of the music I hear outside the home is in stereo only when I get to hear them backstage or in the campground.
> 
> ...


 
Bluegrass...
Off the top of my head, I'd recommend: Sheffield Labs..Lab 9 Confederation. Larry McNeely, Geoff Levin, Jack Skinner. 
Vinyl of course. :thumbsup:


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## LuxLuthor (Jun 8, 2008)

fireboltr said:


> Dianna Krall live from paris
> This has some of the best mixing i have heard in a long long time...



Agree!

This remastered Al Dimeola, John Mclaughlin, Paco Delucia "*Friday Night in San Francisco*" CD is exceptional. I have the vinyl, and comparing between the two with either my Sennheiser HD-600 HP's or Etymotic ER-4S (with Creek OBH-11 HP amp that I got at goodcans.com), are very close.

Keith Jarrett - *The Koln Concert* is great

There's too many to list....in so many areas of music.


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## jayflash (Jun 8, 2008)

Check out www.stereophile.com for worthwhile music, artist and equipment reviews. Superbly written with a sense of humor and self-effacement.

Mp3's 11:1 compression and highly compressed, poorly engineered, CDs have eliminated the benefits of really good gear for most casual listeners. Those of us who value well recorded CD and vinyl releases know how important good electronics and room acoustics can make a day and night difference. 

Not all of us can discern good from bad audio just as some folks cannot judge pitch or are color blind. Poor transistor amplifiers and bad vinyl pressings are lightyears behind what a decent, properly set-up 'table, well recorded, properly stamped, LPs and modern tube gear has to offer.


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## StarHalo (Jun 8, 2008)

If you'd like to check out "the next level" in digital audio, Linn Records has a select number of albums available for download *in the studio master 24bit 88.2/96kHz formats*. 

http://www.linnrecords.com/catalogue.aspx?format=studio

Those are some biiiig downloads, but if you've got the hardware, this is the bleeding edge of digital playback.


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## LuxLuthor (Jun 8, 2008)

StarHalo said:


> If you'd like to check out "the next level" in digital audio, Linn Records has a select number of albums available for download *in the studio master 24bit 88.2/96kHz formats*.
> 
> http://www.linnrecords.com/catalogue.aspx?format=studio
> 
> Those are some biiiig downloads, but if you've got the hardware, this is the bleeding edge of digital playback.



Big thanks for that link. I had not heard of this site before. Those are some quality recordings....it's obvious even with their sample play clips. I had so many other things to do tonight...lol!

By chance do any of you know of high quality recordings of Django Reinhardt, Stefan Grappelli, Jean-Pierre Rampal, and Claude Bolling?


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## NeonLights (Jun 9, 2008)

I used to consider myself an audiophie of sorts, but I haven't purchased hardly any audio gear in at least 5-6 years. Coincidentally my oldest child is also 5 years old. When we started to have babies and toddlers around the house, I ended up packing up my stereo system made up of separate components and storing it up in the attic, I just couldn't bear to see anything ruined by my kids just being kids. I have a receiver based stereo system in our living room and a home theater system in another room, as well as my computer audio system which consists of a Denon stereo receiver, NHT SuperZero speakers, a Marantz single CD player, and an old Technics turntable. I'll probably haul the good stuff back out of the attic in a couple more years and get acquainted with my old friends again, but in the meantime I have started listening to some of my vinyl collection again, and have been enjoying listening to some recordings I haven't heard in 5-6 years.


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## jayflash (Jun 9, 2008)

Yes, thank you, StarHalo for sharing that.

Any tube mavens out there? The new stuff is often auto biased to the point that different output tubes could be used together. Yeah, who'd want to do that, but it shows how much more convenient tube gear has become.

For our engineers: just because tubes don't measure as well in some tests doesn't mean we have the ability to measure all the necessary parameters that equate with human hearing. The old sored state crap from the 60's & 70's measured better than the old tube gear, but sounded much worse. Now the best tube and transistor amps sound more similar and better than ever before.


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## NA8 (Jun 9, 2008)

Anyone remember the Plasmatronics speaker ? 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plasmatronics

Saw and heard these back in San Diego. Nice stuff. Be sure and check out the link at the bottom of the Wiki page it's a nice discussion of speaker design including the plasmas: 

http://www.nutshellhifi.com/library/speaker-design1.html

edit: did some googling and came across this oddball info. Note that this is somewhat different than Dr Hill's design. 

http://www.plasmatweeter.de/eng_plasma.htm

He also has links to other DIY plasma tweeter websites listed under Builders.


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## flashy bazook (Jun 10, 2008)

Interesting thread!

I've been thinking somewhat along the same lines, and wondering why we have come to this point where even basic audiophile equipment seems hard to get and maintain. I have some stuff that has been getting older and more pathetic but have not been able to get the energy to try to replace it.

Part of the problem I guess is that the companies keep changing the standards and formats. They like to make old stuff obsolete to sell the new stuff. But this means that it's harder to justify spending a lot of money on something you suspect might become obsolete because of the actions of the companies.

It isn't just the LP vc CD vs DVD vs audio DVD vs all the different digital formats, although this is a big part of it. The cable connections change, you have recording formats (stereo, dolby, dolby stereo, quadro, 5.1, 7.1, surround...) and different components that in the past could all fit into one receiver, but can they do it now? I remember when I first managed to hook up my TV into the main stereo system I thought it was the greatest thing. But what about the new HD TV's with the new (and copy-write and right restricted--lord only knows what mischief this capability will be put to over time) HDCP links?

And on the other hand, you come to a point where you get tired of managing all the different media and media formats. You think--better to just put everything into the computer and manage it that way. But the computer is not an audiophile equipment, even if you use a good soundcard and reasonably good computer systems.

In the end, you more or less give up, put a few favorites into the computer, and get the best quality through headphones rather than speakers. Then you also have access to all this while mobile (which since the equipment is small and the headphones subpar, only serves to degrade your hearing and sense of music quality you are willing to accept) or in your car (once you get the right kind of car equipment--slightly older cars don't easily connect, though), which also does the same since your car is usually in a noisy environment and is itself noisy, further degrading sound quality.

Finally, although vinyl lasts (but has storage issues...), tapes tend to degrade, so you find that large chunks of your old collection may have been lost through time, and you'll be darned if you'll go out and spend all that money again to rebuild your collection. Once you make the decision to allow your collection to shrink, you also find your emotional connection with the whole hobby weakens, which in turn contributes to a kind of vicious circle of disengagement, apathy, and non-expenditure of energy or money on audiophilic activities.


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## Mike Painter (Jun 10, 2008)

The July 2008 popular science, page 86, supports my claim that properly recorded CD's are of a far better quality than vinyl and the cd will remain that way for a long time.


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## NA8 (Jun 11, 2008)

Mike Painter said:


> The July 2008 popular science, page 86, supports my claim that properly recorded CD's are of a far better quality than vinyl and the cd will remain that way for a long time.



I haven't done any serious comparisons myself, and it wouldn't bother me whichever was proven superior. I do know CD's are easier to use and that the sound of radio sure improved when they came out.


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## 9volt (Jun 11, 2008)

Mike Painter said:


> The July 2008 popular science, page 86, supports my claim that properly recorded CD's are of a far better quality than vinyl and the cd will remain that way for a long time.



Are you trying to blow up this thread?


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## dim (Jun 13, 2008)

My Infinity speakers bought "back in the day" have long since rotted and my heavy silver Pioneer receiver was given away in a move.

Since 99% of my music is in digital form and my life is a bit more transient than it had been, my "system" now consists of PC de-jour, a 10 watt Memorex amplifier designed to power rear speakers for a surround sound system, a pair of RS Minimus 7s, and a small subwoofer to "thicken the soup". I also use some signal processing on the PC to improve the lacking sound of some digital music. I always get the comment from friends, younger and older alike, "that sounds good!"

I'm not a big movie fan and as such, not into "home theater" which, I think, due in part to marketing, has gutted the audiophile market. True, technology has changed but some time ago I was a spectator at a demonstration as a sales associate switched between a high-end 5.1 system and comparable quality/cost stereo speakers. Though the associate was pushing the 5.1 system, that system was not in the same league as the stereo speakers. Yeah, I suppose the frequency range was about the same from bass to "shimmer", but NOTHING else was comparable, dynamics, fidelity and the most glaring difference, SPACE. Despite the 5.1 speakers placed judiciously around the well dampened "speaker room", the 5.1 speakers could not fill the space and could not create the depth and warmth of the pair of stereo speakers setting about 30 degrees in front of me at the front of the room. The stereo speakers created more "surround sound" than the marketed surround sound system. Since then, I've felt that 5.1 systems are a cheap gimmick for manufactures/marketers to sell to consumers rather than quality stereo speakers at equitable prices.

As for consumers...

My first job out of school was selling consumer electronics at a mid-end store. At the time "Top Gun" (HORRIBLE Hollywood drivel), a hot video at the time (does this age me?), was used to help demonstrate systems.

Years later, my brother-in-law, bought a new sound system (no, not from me), a Mitsubishi mid/high end consumer grade amp, respectable Jamo bookshelf speakers and a sizable sub-woofer. To demonstrate his system, my BIL puts on neither Tchycofsky, Sabbath, nor Steely Dan like many audiophiles of the day, but puts on, you guessed it, "Top Gun". With the Jamo speakers fully recessed to the back of the deep bookshelf (so he didn't have to see them), he turns up the volume on some "fly by" scene and says. "Doesn't that sound great?" I, then, screaming over the din, replied with, "You're listening to engine noise!!"

Consumers don't want quality, they want quantity.
5.1, 7.1, 9.1 > 2
It's as if consumers listen with their eyes rather than with their ears.

73
dim


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## Mike Painter (Jun 13, 2008)

dim said:


> My Infinity speakers bought "back in the day" have long since rotted and my heavy silver Pioneer receiver was given away in a move.


That brought back a memory. I had a pair of Leak speakers for years and when they started to go did some funny things.
Mostly bad sound but one afternoon I had a piano playing *in* the doorway to the kitchen.
All the rest of the music was where it was supposed to be but that piano sound was amazingly well located.


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## StarHalo (May 12, 2014)

Necro-bump for the Jack White ULTRA LP, which features a "spinning angel" hologram as you play:







Other features:

-180 gram vinyl
-Two vinyl-only hidden tracks hidden beneath the center labels
-One hidden track plays at 78 RPM and one plays at 45 RPM, making this a three-speed record
-Side A plays from the inside out
-Dual-groove technology: plays an electric or acoustic intro for "Just One Drink" depending on where needle is dropped; the grooves meet for the body of the song
-Matte finish on Side B, giving the appearance of an unplayed 78 RPM record
-Both sides end with locked grooves
-Vinyl pressed in seldom-used flat-edged format
-Dead wax area on Side A contains a hand-etched hologram by Tristan Duke of Infinity Light Science, the first of its kind on a vinyl record
-Absolutely zero compression used during recording, mixing and mastering
-Different running order from the CD/digital version
-Utilizes some mixes different from those used on CD/digital versions


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## yoyoman (May 12, 2014)

Kickerstarter for Pono - provides the convenience of MP3 without the compression. 

From my experience, CDs don't give the same sound stage accuracy as vinyl. And MP3s don't sound as good CDs. This could be interesting, but won't ever be mainstream.


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## Obijuan Kenobe (May 12, 2014)

Cydonia said:


> Of course the audiophile isn't dead, nor is he moribund, or likely to be anytime soon. I used to be a hopeless head-fi forums junky before my CPF days...
> 
> What Happened To Dynamic Range? is an important little article that brings up an often overlooked but critical (common sense) point - the recordings themselves differ vastly.



It is the quality of recording which makes audiophiles cringe at the term MP3 and compression. 

The better your system is, the easier it is to hear the lack of dynamic range in most digital recordings. It is scary what you hear if you go back to full range recordings, say from a live DAT recording...even better from a soundboard DAT recording...played through a real rig. 

For my live recordings archive, I can never have a good enough system. That being said, I can often only afford very good headphones.

obi


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## markr6 (May 12, 2014)

I was going through some boxes of unused DVD and audio systems in my basement the other day. I hooked up my turntable and played some old jazz records. Wow...good stuff!!! Nothing fancy, just a Sony table and a 10-year-old Sony theater system only using the center and two front speakers. I don't know how to describe it but it's just a very pleasing sound quality.

I may get some new vinyl in the near future!


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## makapuu (May 15, 2014)

I think that there will always be audiophiles, it's just that they're more people out there that get caught up in whatever is type of sound is being promoted at that time. My system consists of a Cary integrated tube amp, ProAc Response 2.5 speakers, a Tice line conditioner, Straightwire Maestro II speaker cables and interconnects, and a Cary tube CD player. I have a lot of friends that have surround sound systems that have subwoofers that can shake apart their house. They are slowly starting to appreciate the purist type of sound that I like. To me, imaging, smoothness, depth, soundstage, and the sweet sound of tubes will never go out of style.


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## thedoc007 (May 15, 2014)

http://www.dansdata.com/gz143.htm

There are many other articles like this one...this is just the first one I found in a quick search. Basically, many audiophiles spend enormous sums of money for gear which is not detectably better (digital signals either get there or they don't, so spending hundreds of dollars for a heavy, shielded cable is totally pointless). This is not to say there aren't some products out there which are actually higher quality, but the marketing budget for a LOT of audiophile gear seems to be much higher than the engineering budget. Not a good recipe for truly advancing the science.


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## idleprocess (May 15, 2014)

I've got to say that I'm not impressed with the audiophile argument. Years ago a friend demo'ed their super-high-end Sony discman (super low profile, ran on gumstick cells, powered eject/load) with then almost top-of-the-line Sennheiser headphones and played a CD I happened to have on tape. They raved about how they could hear these background sounds on this setup that were otherwise inaudible; I didn't have the heart to tell them that I could hear those sounds on my well-worn tape copy of said album ... on my cheap car stereo.



yoyoman said:


> Kickerstarter for Pono - provides the convenience of MP3 without the compression.


It can't be any sort of ground-shaking technology - FLAC and other lossess codecs have been around for many years and most decent phones/personal audio players have pretty decent sound stages when fed good source material. I wish them luck trying to reinvent the process end-to-end with so many entrenched players.



> From my experience, CDs don't give the same sound stage accuracy as vinyl. And MP3s don't sound as good CDs. This could be interesting, but won't ever be mainstream.


Most people simply don't care nor can they tell the difference on the equipment they're using (typically portable or car audio) in the locations they're using it (anywhere but a listening room or even well laid out home theater setup). We're simply not in an age where people will invest in listening rooms and high-fi setups; time spent stationary in the home is largely utilized for more-engaging persuits such as TV/movies, gaming, or on the internet; music can be a secondary function for many of these.

I think the focus for most people is on accurate-_enough_ replication of the sound, which is now enjoyed on the go. The popularity of beats audio - with its hilariously amped bass - suggests that precise replication of the sound isn't valued so much anymore. Conversely, look at what the pros use when it comes to headphones - Sennheiser and SONY are still strong names in that space.



thedoc007 said:


> http://www.dansdata.com/gz143.htm
> 
> There are many other articles like this one...this is just the first one I found in a quick search. Basically, many audiophiles spend enormous sums of money for gear which is not detectably better (digital signals either get there or they don't, so spending hundreds of dollars for a heavy, shielded cable is totally pointless). This is not to say there aren't some products out there which are actually higher quality, but the marketing budget for a LOT of audiophile gear seems to be much higher than the engineering budget. Not a good recipe for truly advancing the science.


Getting caught up in specific aspects of the gear is not unique to audiophiles, although the degree of obsession is sort of unique to the hobby. I think there's some truth to the claim that they can _tell the quality difference_, some training themselves to the particularities of a given setup (independent of measurable quality), and also a fair degree of defending their investment.


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## StarHalo (May 15, 2014)

idleprocess said:


> I've got to say that I'm not impressed with the audiophile argument.



Eh, a good source, good headphones, that'll do. There are only a handful of recordings I can think of where there's a tiny difference in a passage here or there when heard on the expensive stuff, you're only going to want to hear Madonna's _Ray Of Light_ so many times..



idleprocess said:


> It can't be any sort of ground-shaking technology



It's not, it's just the first time someone has taken all the audiophile hardware and brought it together in one smallish package. An iPod + DAC + amp isn't exactly pocketable, and most portable players on their own sound pretty awful; my 4th-gen iPod Nano was definitely meant to be paired with the cheap white earbuds..


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## yoyoman (May 16, 2014)

idleprocess said:


> I wish them luck trying to reinvent the process end-to-end .



That is exactly the point. They are trying to redo the end to end to end process. From the master filles to what you listen to on your personal player. Get rid of the compression and keep it small. 

I've listened to the same song on the same set up with different sources - vinyl, cd and MP3. It is sad to hear how poor the MP3 sounds. Sad because the convenience is so superior. So if Pono can change the end to end process and keep the convience without sacrificing the quality, it will be a game changer for thise who care.


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## idleprocess (May 17, 2014)

yoyoman said:


> That is exactly the point. They are trying to redo the end to end to end process. From the master filles to what you listen to on your personal player. Get rid of the compression and keep it small.
> 
> I've listened to the same song on the same set up with different sources - vinyl, cd and MP3. It is sad to hear how poor the MP3 sounds. Sad because the convenience is so superior. So if Pono can change the end to end process and keep the convience without sacrificing the quality, it will be a game changer for thise who care.


The question is will the market be large enough to make it happen? Perhaps it will carve out a larger niche than SACD and DVD-A did, but I would not predict any traction in the larger market which is seemingly content with MP3 and other compressed formats.


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## StarHalo (May 17, 2014)

LARGER CABLES


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## Steve K (May 18, 2014)

and those are just the battery charger cables for his laptop?? 

You can't just throw out an apparently ridiculous photo like that and not provide some background... is that all just for his headphone amp? Crazy stuff.


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## Chauncey Gardiner (May 18, 2014)

He's attempting to contact the Mother Ship. :tinfoil:

~ Chance


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## mcnair55 (May 18, 2014)

Will have to disagree with a lot that is written but only based on what is happening in the UK.Vinyl is all the rage at the moment and proper Hi-Fi turntables are popping up all over.Gone are the days when the young among us went out and paid £300 or so for a mini Hi-Fi system,they are far more choosy now and buying decent amps such as for instance the award winning Denon DM39 and hooking that up to a pair of say Dali Sensor 1 and you then have the basis of a seriously better kit.

I have a couple of decent Bluetooth speakers that deliver some high quality sound,My speaker system for my tv was only just £20 short of the tv itself.


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## StarHalo (May 19, 2014)

Steve K said:


> You can't just throw out an apparently ridiculous photo like that and not provide some background... is that all just for his headphone amp? Crazy stuff.



From some dude's Flickr account; description says:



> Digital guru Dan Lavry (Lavry Engineering) listening to the rig I brought, which included a MacBook Pro with lossless files optically feeding the Lavry DA11 (as DAC), which, via Cardas Clear interconnects, was feeding the Ray Samuels Audio Raptor which was driving the Sennheiser HD 800. Power cables were Cardas Golden Reference AC and TARA Labs RSC Air AC. Perfect power was courtesy of PS Audio's PowerPlant Premier. This rather simple rig produced some of the best sound I heard at the show.



So it's a "rather simple rig", lol. Still no explanation for the microphone..


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## yoyoman (May 19, 2014)

It is a rather simple rig. But it is big. The popularity of MP3 is you can carry your whole music collection with you. People have sacrificed the feeling of music to get this convenience. I don't know the technical details of Pono, but I am hoping to get the feeling back.


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## Steve K (May 19, 2014)

StarHalo said:


> From some dude's Flickr account; description says:
> 
> 
> 
> So it's a "rather simple rig", lol. Still no explanation for the microphone..



wow... so that's a laptop feeding data to a stand-alone DAC, going to a headphone amp (the "Audio Raptor"??), and then the headphones. I think I'm most intrigued by the statement "perfect power was courtesy of PS Audio's PowerPlant Premier". So now a clean power supply is a big sales item? Interesting. I'm definitely in the wrong business!

edit: I just had to learn more about this Power Plant business. The company's site, for the low end of their power gadgets is here:
http://www.psaudio.com/products/p3-power-plant/
The device doesn't just clean up your power.. it actually synthesizes the AC power. That's gotten a lot easier in the last 10 years or so, but who knew that people were demanding it? The fact that the power is just going to be full wave rectified and filtered inside of the device using the power seems unimportant. 

the marketing info says:
"The smallest and most affordable of our personal power generating stations, the P3 produces pure, protected AC capable of powering any size high-end system. This state-of-the-art power center offers fully regenerated power for all sources and smaller power amplifiers along with a high current filtered output that can drive even the largest power amplifiers made.

From the biggest power amplifiers to the smallest pieces of source equipment, this combination of regenerated AC coupled with a high current unrestricted filtered zone will work magic on your system’s performance.

With your system powered directly from the output of the P3, dynamics and openness are unquestioned."

oddly, I don't see any sort of specs on the device's performance. THD? Harmonics? dB of noise rejection? Affect of input voltage transients on the output voltage? nada. It would be easier to take them seriously if they provided evidence of the benefits of their product.

2nd edit: they do have some specs... but it was a little harder to find. There is a spec for voltage regulation, 0.5v, and for output distortion, less than 0.5%. Not bad, I suppose. There is a spec for noise reduction too.... 80dB over the range of 100kHz to 2MHz. 
So, if you've been plagued by noise in that frequency band, this could be the answer. I wonder how it compares to simple power line filters?


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## StarHalo (May 19, 2014)

Steve K said:


> wow... so that's a laptop feeding data to a stand-alone DAC, going to a headphone amp (the "Audio Raptor"??), and then the headphones.



Yeah, that basic schema is common, I run my PC through a Headroom Micro DAC to their MicroAmp and then Sony 7506s. My entire setup costs less than any one of the items that guy is using though (and my DAC/amp can be powered by 9V batteries.)

And I remember even back in the 90's Crutchfield selling home theater rackmount power supplies, though they're obviously more refined now. I can't imagine it makes that much of a difference, but that could be said of a lot of the bits in the pictured circuit. That's audiophilia though..


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## Steve K (May 19, 2014)

I was thinking about batteries too. Why have all of that power conversion going on, with all of the noise from switching power supplies (or are they just running linear regulators?), when you could just hook up one or two 12v AGM batteries and have the cleanest possible power? Or use Li-ion batteries... doesn't matter. Headphones shouldn't be drawing much more than a watt or so, I would imagine.

I was also thinking that this fellow should consider getting shorter cables. That would have to be an improvement in sound quality, albeit small, and it would seriously reduce the clutter on that table. 

At the risk of this thread wandering too far off topic, or maybe too much on topic, why isn't the DAC integrated with the amp? That would have to reduce the opportunity for adding noise to the signals, and just make the whole thing more compact and easier to use.


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## StarHalo (May 19, 2014)

Steve K said:


> why isn't the DAC integrated with the amp? That would have to reduce the opportunity for adding noise to the signals, and just make the whole thing more compact and easier to use.



They do that now with portable amps (and with internal lithium batteries), but the larger stuff is all still modular so you can mix n' match as desired.


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## Steve K (May 19, 2014)

I did poke around on those interwebs and found some DAC/amp combos. Kinda nice. 
The whole discussion was an impetus to look at the plans for a DIY headphone amp from NWAVGUY. ...I really need to find time to work on some home 'tronics projects.

As another side note.. I've been using my old Sony Discman with my good headphones I'm not sure if it's just the headphones or the CD's, but it's better than the PC's or mp3 players that I listen to usually (which means when I'm at work). Maybe it's just the novelty of something different??


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## StarHalo (May 19, 2014)

Steve K said:


> As another side note.. I've been using my old Sony Discman with my good headphones I'm not sure if it's just the headphones or the CD's, but it's better than the PC's or mp3 players that I listen to usually (which means when I'm at work). Maybe it's just the novelty of something different??



No, my old Discman has glorious sound, very nicely balanced and tunable; you can tell it's a CD player from the folks who make the V6/7506 headphones. Computers are always a crap shoot, some audio hardware is good, some not.

Edit: Just remembered; back in the old school PC days I used a Turtle Beach Amigo USB key sound card, which had awesome audio and features and would allow you to get studio sound from any computer. They still make something similar.


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## gadget_lover (May 27, 2014)

I don't think that the audiofile is dead, but the bar has moved around a bit. My premise starts with the assertion that many audiofiles are music lovers despite possession of average hearing. I have terrible hearing and yet I can appreciate music. 

If you accept this assertion, then it's easy to see that an MP3 can deliver an enjoyable listening experience. The compression focuses on what the average person can hear. My MP3 player delivers better quality than my TV or FM radio. It would not be a big stretch for an audiofile with average hearing to find an extensive digital library to be more desirable than a smaller analog one.

If you define an audiofile to be an aficionado, then of course that's a different issue. 

Daniel
P.S. After listening to MP3 music for several years, I find that the headphones are often the weak link. 20-20,000 hz is just not low enough to enjoy any music.


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## yoyoman (May 28, 2014)

When I first got my iPod, I was very happy. The convenience of carrying my whole music collection in my pocket was great. I went to my brother-in-law who had a high end set-up (vacuum tube amp, good speakers, etc.). We played the same song on vinyl, cd and the iPod. The difference between vinyl and cd was noticeable but not great. The iPad sounded muddy - no feeling. So I don't hook up the iPod to my stereo, but it is still great for its portability.

I bought a portable headphone amp from HeadRoom. A big improvement because the headphone amp built into the iPod (and other MP3 players) is an afterthought and not quality. The portable headphone amp made a big difference - the sound coming out of my headphones was much improved. The portable headphone amp is about the same size as the iPod, so not a big deal when traveling - great for the airplane, but perhaps not practical for walking around.

I'm looking forward to getting my Pono. I'm hoping to get a portable package that delivers music with feeling.


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## Canuke (Jun 8, 2014)

idleprocess said:


> I think the focus for most people is on accurate-_enough_ replication of the sound, which is now enjoyed on the go. The popularity of beats audio - with its hilariously amped bass - suggests that precise replication of the sound isn't valued so much anymore.



That's been the case ever since "perfection" (as in a flat, pure frequency response across the audible spectrum) became readily available. Where to go from there? There's no place to go from there but downhill, *away* from accuracy. And since there's an infinity of places to go on a mountainside other than the peak, which "valley" is best becomes subjective preference.

And sure enough, vinyl and tube amps (with their "warmth") came back.

Speaking for myself, I'm almost always listening to music in the car, with its horrendous noise floor, so the quality issues with compression just don't bother me there.

Besides, the majority of the material that's popular these days doesn't seem to need much fidelity anymore, seeing as "fidelity" implies "fidelity to reality", and in these days of AutoTune, there's precious little reality to begin with.


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## idleprocess (Jun 8, 2014)

I unearthed one of my old Walkman CD players - which had weathered the >10 years in non-temperature controlled storage looking almost new - and did a quick comparison between a MP3 and the CD it was extracted from. Using the cheap headphones I had around at the moment, I could tell a difference, but I had to _really_ listen for it, and probably couldn't reliably tell the difference in a blind test. With the better headphones stashed at work or through a stereo with some actual power, perhaps the difference would be more pronounced, but for portable use convenience is king.

If I ever start listening to my music collection through the stereo, I'll probably just re-rip everything to FLAC and not have to worry about quality vs CD.


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## StarHalo (Jun 9, 2014)

idleprocess said:


> With the better headphones



This, if the MP3 is under 192kbps; once you get at/over that mark, the good headphones will only reveal very slight soundstage limiting in really big/complex passages, which you'll have to be specifically listening for.

I used to rip everything at 192-320kbps variable so the bitrate would increase as needed, but in the age of 128GB MicroSD cards, may as well FLAC away..


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## StarHalo (Jun 19, 2014)

Spotted in the Amazon warehouse: Three mountains of audio perfection and enjoyment - two pallets of Sony MDR-7506s and a pallet of Sony V6s, 300 silk-enrobed pairs of headphones per pallet.

Now go buy some..


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## idleprocess (Jun 19, 2014)

StarHalo said:


> Spotted in the Amazon warehouse: Three mountains of audio perfection and enjoyment - two pallets of Sony MDR-7506s and a pallet of Sony V6s, 300 silk-enrobed pairs of headphones per pallet.
> 
> Now go buy some..


I have a set of V6 headphones from circa 1999. Replaced the earpads on them not too long ago and they're still sounding good when driven by _anything_ - phone, discman, stereo, PC/laptop headphone out port. Like its closely-related cousin the 7506, it's often seen as the entry-level of audiophile-grade headphones and said to be a favorite of roadies and studio technicians because of its combination of quality, durability, and low price.


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## Steve K (Jun 20, 2014)

Someone sells earpads for the V6 headphones?? Shoot.... I got rid of mine close to 10 years ago because the pads had rotted so badly. I've got some Beyer Dynamic DT331 headphones as a replacement. They seem just fine. The V6's were quite good, though.


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## idleprocess (Jun 20, 2014)

Steve K said:


> Someone sells earpads for the V6 headphones?? Shoot.... I got rid of mine close to 10 years ago because the pads had rotted so badly. I've got some Beyer Dynamic DT331 headphones as a replacement. They seem just fine. The V6's were quite good, though.



They're dimensionally equivalent to another decent make and model, which seems to help with availability.


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## StarHalo (Jul 16, 2014)

I wasn't previously aware of DSD files (or the DSD vs PCM debate,) but you can find some albums in that format, along with FLAC, here. Anyone listened to DSD files/SACD CDs?


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## Peace Train (Aug 1, 2014)

The death of the audiophile also seems to be an on-again-off-again theme in the several audio forums I belong to. The thing is, people continue to shell out billions of dollars every year for new products that are continuously being invented, reinvented, manufactured, and re-manufactured. These dying audiophiles have single-handedly revived vinyl, and are slowly bringing back to light tubes, reel-to-reel, and other technologies from the past. Even cassette tapes were newly discovered to be capable of storing libraries of music! 
Flashlights are a MUCH cheaper alternative.






While I don't consider myself an audiophile per se (haha), I do like quality sound. In other words, I'm not storm chasing the latest and greatest, next big thing. Yes, I suppose this in effect qualifies as the retirement, or maybe sabbatical, of an audiophile. But I think it's easy to get caught up in that kind of excitement of any forum. 
I'm keeping myself in check here on CPF however. 




At the moment, I'm happily content with my sacd/dvd (Lexicon RT-10), turntable (Garard 301), receivers (Marantz 2285B and variety of HH Scott tube thingamajiggies), etc, etc. Although my speakers are quite recent, everything else I picked up is from CL and eBay which I had fully restored. 
I paid into the system, just not the current one.






Of course, I have an assortment of computer audio gadgets, but stopped shy of getting rid of my cd collection and loading it onto my computer. For most things computer related, I stream. I mean, do I need to have everything sounding like a micro-staged lounge or concert hall wherever I go? 
I have some excellent headphones for that!






Honestly, I'm pretty content streaming without needing to spend tens of thousands dollars on streaming devices and DAC's. At least that's what I tell myself................ for now. 











​


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## ElectronGuru (Aug 21, 2014)

Well someone forgot to tell this guy:

http://theboomcase.com/gallery/

:rock:


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## Steve K (Aug 22, 2014)

wow..... who would have thought anyone would make a speaker cabinet out of a suitcase?
Please tell me that these are just art projects.


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## Peace Train (Aug 22, 2014)

Art projects? That's probably what the audio forums say about McGizmo's and Mac's.


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## Chauncey Gardiner (Aug 22, 2014)

:hahaha:


Peace Train said:


> ......That's probably what the audio forums say about McGizmo's and Mac's.



Chance clicks on another link, humming/singing to himself:

Now I've been happy lately, thinking about the good things to come And I believe it could be, something good has begun.....


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## Steve K (Aug 22, 2014)

Peace Train said:


> Art projects? That's probably what the audio forums say about McGizmo's and Mac's.



very possibly.... heck, I might even say that. 

My take is that the suitcase speakers are more about self expression instead of about audio performance. I don't expect that there are any claims that the suitcases actually produce better sound than the speakers in an audiophile's listening room.

The fanciest flashlight in my collection is a humble Fenix, so I'm not familiar with McGizmo's... can I assume that self expression is part of the appeal? Or is it all techno-lust with a bit of "look! a shiny object!" thrown in? I get exposed to a lot of tech at work, so I'm usually just looking for purely functional stuff when I buy things myself. I do have some very shiny bicycles, albeit old tech ones, so I understand the appeal of shiny objects. The machining and metal work is just wonderful on those bikes!


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## Peace Train (Aug 22, 2014)

Chauncey Gardiner said:


> :hahaha:
> 
> Chance clicks on another link, humming/singing to himself:
> 
> Now I've been happy lately, thinking about the good things to come And I believe it could be, something good has begun.....



Hahaha knives, fountain pens, audio; what's next...watches? I gotta get out of this thread!!! Where's my light?! Show me the door!!


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## Peace Train (Aug 22, 2014)

Steve K said:


> very possibly.... heck, I might even say that.
> 
> My take is that the suitcase speakers are more about self expression instead of about audio performance. I don't expect that there are any claims that the suitcases actually produce better sound than the speakers in an audiophile's listening room.



Much of anything in _any_ custom market is about self expression. I mean, even the choices in purchases we make are purely self-expressive...although I understand your point and I'm sure you and Chance are right. I'm thinking that product is one of the hipster crowd alternatives to decorating, or a variation of a boombox...uh, from what I recall. 



Steve K said:


> The fanciest flashlight in my collection is a humble Fenix, so I'm not familiar with McGizmo's... can I assume that self expression is part of the appeal? Or is it all techno-lust with a bit of "look! a shiny object!" thrown in? I get exposed to a lot of tech at work, so I'm usually just looking for purely functional stuff when I buy things myself. I do have some very shiny bicycles, albeit old tech ones, so I understand the appeal of shiny objects. The machining and metal work is just wonderful on those bikes!



Google "Hanko Machine Works" and "EDC Knives" hit "add to cart" and report back to us?  I personally enjoy a mix of performance and visual appeal for most things. I also enjoy old tech mixed with new. Although I probably wouldn't buy a suitcase system like that and haven't gotten into 1000 lumen modded maglites _(yet)_, I do have an early 80's ten speed paired with a modern fixie along with a 1950's/60's turntable and tube receiver paired with modern wires and speakers lol. After coming to terms with the obsession, I recently decided there's a name for it: serial collector. _*If anyone needs me, I'll be in the muscle car era thread next._


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## StarHalo (Aug 24, 2014)

I'm getting a lot of a waterproof Bluetooth speakers at work lately; looks like the hot holiday audio trend will be listening to music in the shower..


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## Jenifer512 (Aug 25, 2014)

Hello, I just want to ask. How will I know a person is an audiophile?


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## StarHalo (Aug 25, 2014)

Jenifer512 said:


> Hello, I just want to ask. How will I know a person is an audiophile?



If you ask someone what they're listening to lately and they recite to you a list of audio hardware, that's an audiophile.


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## Peace Train (Aug 25, 2014)

Jenifer512 said:


> Hello, I just want to ask. How will I know a person is an audiophile?




10. If they have a dedicated audio room (and/or there's an array of glowing tubes emanating from a shelving unit that light up a given room without the need to turn the lights on).

9. Their components are stacked on top of things that look like spikes. 

8. They have one or more headphones in the $500 to $5,000 range.

7. Their collection of vinyl records covers an entire wall, all the way up to the ceiling like stacks in a library.

6. Initials like SACD, FLAC, MFSL, DCC, DVDA, DAC are thrown about in casual conversation.

5. They're on the RMAF (Rocky Mountain Audio Festival) VIP list.

4. People call them by their forum name whenever they enter an electronics or audio store.

3. There's a soldering iron next to their turntable or other audio component.

2. Speakers are a prominent, and often obtrusive, feature in their home. 

1. They either proudly exclaim they're an audiophile...or flat out deny it.


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## idleprocess (Aug 25, 2014)

Jenifer512 said:


> Hello, I just want to ask. How will I know a person is an audiophile?



There are also some key words you might listen for...

Oxygen-free copper
Listening room
Tube amp
Solid-state noise
Resonance frequencies
Power conditioner
Mapleshade
Outboard DAC
All forms of negative modifiers being applied to "compression"
_Never same highs, never same lows, must be Bose_
Turntable
Cartridge or Stylus (for turntables, natch)
Vinyl
Discussion about the evils of *mass-fi*
Stem-cell insulation _(OK, I made that one up)_


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## Peace Train (Aug 26, 2014)

Ha funny, and agreed. Unless you're buying music, stay away from Mapleshade...and Bose.


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## Steve K (Aug 26, 2014)

Jenifer512 said:


> Hello, I just want to ask. How will I know a person is an audiophile?



Lots of good advice so far.
I was going to add "if the wires between the audio components are big enough to be welding cable, the person could be an audiophile".


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## fyrstormer (Aug 26, 2014)

My home stereo consists of a $2000 set of self-powered self-equalizing studio monitors with digital inputs, so I can hear everything exactly the way the recording engineer heard it. In fact, it's entirely possible the recording engineer used the exact same speakers when mastering the recording.


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## thedoc007 (Sep 27, 2014)

*http://www.xkcd.com/841/*


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## Captain Obvious (Sep 27, 2014)

I'm quite the audiophile!

I build myself a recording studio since I'm also a musician but I tend to mostly use my setup just to listen to music!
It consist of 2 ADAM Audio A7X speakers and a ADAM Audio Sub10 Subwoofer as the speakers and a RME Babyface as Audio Interface =]
I also go to a school for Audio Engineering for live performances and events. So yeah I'd consider myself an audiophile ^^


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## BanditoPete (Sep 29, 2014)

I don't listen to speakers because of my rather cramped apartment, but I do listen to my headphones out of a couple good DAC/amps. I became interested in hp and have had numerous hp's over the years always striving to attain that elusive, Nirvana-like sound. Talk about another hobby that will dent your wallet! Just be careful of all the hype and the FOTM syndrome (flavor of the month).


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## Peace Train (Sep 29, 2014)

Yep BanditoPete, the fotm and waf play roles on cpf too. See Vinhnguyen's forum for more on fotm.


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## BanditoPete (Sep 29, 2014)

Peace Train said:


> Yep BanditoPete, the fotm and waf play roles on cpf too. See Vinhnguyen's forum for more on fotm.



LOL! I just ordered one of Vinh's lights today. So, it begins again.


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## Peace Train (Sep 29, 2014)

Haha yes, Vinh's all about the flavor of the day, month, season, year! 

What kind of setup do you have for (each of) your headphones BP?


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## caseyse (Sep 29, 2014)

StarHalo said:


> I wasn't previously aware of DSD files (or the DSD vs PCM debate,) but you can find some albums in that format, along with FLAC, here. Anyone listened to DSD files/SACD CDs?



The audiophile is alive and well. I have hacked an old PS3 to use SACD-Ripper software, the only way to extract DSD from a SACD. I have about 200 ripped SACDs, mostly 60's and 70's music (my favorite) that I stream from my PC. To use some audiophile speak....I stream the DSD to a dCS Vivaldi DAC, and listen via an Eddie Current Electra amp and Stax SR-009 headphones. Absolutely best way to lurk in the Candle Power Forums






There are both good and bad SACD recordings with many not being any better than CDs (Red Book). The good SACDs can be much better than Red Book.


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## BanditoPete (Sep 30, 2014)

Peace Train said:


> Haha yes, Vinh's all about the flavor of the day, month, season, year!
> 
> What kind of setup do you have for (each of) your headphones BP?



Just some stuff: Yamaha CD-N500, Anedio D1, Oppo HA-1, HiFiMan HM-901, Fiio X5, Senn HD 650, Audeze LCD-2, Grado SR225. Honestly though, I recently have been spending more listening time with the HM-901 and the LCD-2 or the Fiio X5 with the Grado SR225.


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## caseyse (Sep 30, 2014)

BanditoPete said:


> Just some stuff... HiFiMan HM-901



Although chunky, the HM901 w. the IEM card has the best sound out of the current DAPs on the market. Better than the AK240 at half its price. I like it paired with the 1plus2 earphones.


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## BanditoPete (Oct 1, 2014)

caseyse said:


> Although chunky, the HM901 w. the IEM card has the best sound out of the current DAPs on the market. Better than the AK240 at half its price. I like it paired with the 1plus2 earphones.



Never listened to the AK240, but did have a used AK120 for a little while until I sold it. If memory serves me, the AK120 I had had a few quibbles with the UI and less than stellar battery life. I do remember though being enthralled while listening to Esperanza Spalding and Diana Krall. Traded it for the HM-901 and just never looked back. The 901 is well balanced to my ears and gives me those "oohs and ahhhs" with Keith Jarrett, Coltrane, etc.


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## caseyse (Oct 1, 2014)

I have the original AK120 (non Titan) I use four times a week in the gym. It's a good size that clips to my shorts.When new, I could get 11+ hours on a charge. The UI has some problems, so I just use folder browsing. The sound of the AK120 with its Wolfson WM8740 DACs is less resolving and warmer when compared to the HM-901 with its ESS ES9018 DACs. I tried using the HM-901 in the gym, but it's just too large and heavy, so it's my DAC of choice hiking or when I travel for work. I have a 256k CF card in the HM-901 and twin 128 SD cards in the AK120 which is more than enough storage for my high res. music files. 

The HM-901 has the best sound I've heard in a DAP, so I can overlook its larger size and retro styling. I hear there will be an HM-901s model released shortly, and for a small fee, one can upgrade their existing unit (new rotary encoder, further v2 GUI enhancements, better battery life). I'm not sure if the better battery life is the result of moving to the portable Sabre DAC chips, if so, I wouldn't be interested in upgrading as their current implementation of the desktop ES9018 chips produces the perfect sound for me.


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## BanditoPete (Oct 2, 2014)

Good info on the upgrade! I haven't followed Head-fi for a while now and have been out of the info loop. Thanks.


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## js (Oct 28, 2014)

I thought about posting to this thread way back when it was first started, but due to time issues and not wanting to get into (or start) a flame war about analogue vs digital, I never did.

But since this thread was resurrected, and since I have had a lot more experience with portable audio and with headphones and with digital recording and compression, I feel like now is a good time to make a contribution.

It is my considered opinion and experience that there is a tension between being an _audiophile_ and being a music lover. One can easily lose the music and enjoyment of it in the quest for sonic perfection.

A long time ago when I read Stereophile magazine on a regular basis, one of the reviewers had coined a term: the "Jones ratio"--but it wasn't "Jones"--it was whatever his last name was, which I don't remember. But the ratio was calculated by taking all of the money one had invested in a music collection and dividing it by the amount of money one had invested in equipment. Any ratio of less than 2 was suspect, and any ratio of less than 1 was a clear sign that you weren't dealing with a true music lover, but with an equipment junkie--someone who couldn't hear the music for the sound, as it were. I dismissed this ratio and felt it didn't really apply, especially if you were just starting out. You needed a good system to enjoy your music, right? And good stuff cost money. And if you were just starting out, your music collection wouldn't be that large. Etc. Yes. My ratio at the time was probably around 1, or even less, I think. And I absolutely was losing the music in the sound. I was getting obsessed with the sound and despite having better and better equipment, I was actually enjoying my music less and less. It actually got to the point where I put my stereo system in storage at my parents house and listened to all my music on this crappy CD-boom box. The sound quality was quite bad. But, ironically, I found that because it was so bad, I didn't even worry about it any longer and my passionate enjoyment of music returned to me. It was an invaluable lesson. And when I did bring back my stereo system a few years later, I no longer obsessed over every little detail of the music or whether or not there was a defect here or there.

It's common to hear audiophiles talk about how they are now hearing things in their music that they had never heard before, and I understand the sentiment and where they might be coming from in saying that--I've experienced it myself--BUT, I also know that it really isn't the true mark of great equipment and great enjoyment of said equipment. To my mind, the true mark of that is when the person says something like "I stayed up most of the night just listening to my music collection--I kept wondering how some other of my favorite music would sound; and I kept enjoying the music so much I didn't want to stop listening." Now THAT'S what your music system is supposed to do for you! Increase your _enjoyment_ of the music! Increased detail resolution or increased frequency reach is all well and good, but only if it translates into you getting even more lost in the bliss of your favorite music.

So, I don't think it's a bad thing that todays youth is enjoying music so much--buying so much of it, listening to it whenever and wherever they can, finding so many new ways to explore more of it. So they're listening to it on crappy Apple ear buds. So what? If you can't enjoy music through anything but a high end sound system, then I submit that you might be well served to adjust your focus and your priorities.

And if it comes to sound quality, todays portable systems are FAR better than the old portable tape decks of 30 years ago. And yet those were still more than good enough to enrapture me back in the day!

I can remember the first time I was really lost in the music, transported, and it was via one of those crappy portable tape decks with crappy, flimsy headphones. I bought two tapes--Peter Gabriel's Plays Live, and Kate Bush's Hounds of Love. I had never heard either album. At bed time I put side A of Plays Live into the tape deck, put my headphones on, sunk down under the covers (I was supposed to be sleeping--it was a school night), and hit "play". And oh my God, what an experience! I was amazed! I was transported. The drums, some instrument I'd never heard, the crowd going wild, the sound fading in, increasing, more durms, another instrument, and then Peter Gabriel belting out that vocal phrase and the bass coming in. I should have been tired, but I was too into the music to even notice. The next night was side B, then the whole of Hounds of Love. Soon I had everything Peter Gabriel and Kate Bush had ever recorded--or at least that was still in print, as it were. And there was so much more great music! I listened to that stupid portable tape deck and horrible low quality headphones until it literally stopped working and their foam pads got all thin and nasty. It's sound quality was fairly awful, but it was more than good enough to allow me to understand the music--to "get" what the composer was putting across--to be transported, to enjoy, to imbibe the sonic wonders laid out before me.

And when I got old enough and had the means, I of course got better and better equipment. But I don't think that it ever really increased my enjoyment of the music until I was much, much older.

I've moved in audiophile circles and I've listened to audiophile equipment and owned some of it to boot, and a lot of it is really out there! All the money people spend on interconnects and power cables and trying to get all their music in 192kHz/24 bit form and so on! It's freaking crazy in my opinion. I have Logic Pro X and the Mastered for iTunes software tools, and an Apogee Duet (Firewire), and I can take 96kHz/24 bit source material (or higher) and compress it to 256kbps AAC files, and then use the double blind A/B testing tool to see if I can actually hear the difference, and it's very difficult to do so. Perhaps if I had a better headphone amp than the one built into the Duet, and perhaps if I had better headphones than Grado SR225's or Sennheiser HD595's or Sony MDR7506's I could more easily spot the difference. I _can_ tell the difference, but it takes a real effort and some rather non-musical concentrated listening attention to figure out which is 256 AAC and which the 96/24. The module exactly volume matches them, and the equipment is exactly the same in both cases, and if you do that you will find (I think) that there's very little difference between iTunes Plus quality compressed files and studio master quality files.

Back when I owned a full sized stereo system I conducted this same experiment by converting a CD to 256 AAC and then burning it to disc and then listening to the original vs the burned disc, and again it was pretty damn difficult to tell the difference. I had Energy Pro-22 speakers, NAD 2200 power amp, NAD pre-amp, and Rotel CD player. Not super high end stuff to be sure, but not crappy stuff either. Now 128kbps AAC? Entirely different story! Definitely not good enough to be considered transparent. Definite and noticeable loss of fidelity in the trebble, and an overall lose of sound quality. And I found I was more likely to get listening fatigue with 128. So it wasn't until iTunes went to 256 as their standard that I started buying my music from them. Prior to that I bought CD's and ripped them to 256 AAC.

I did this because the space on my iPod touch was limited and I wanted to get as much of my library on it as I could! I was worried I'd have to do the Apple Lossless Encoder to be happy, but fortunately, my experiments led me to conclude that 256 AAC was more than good enough to get out of its own way and allow me to enjoy my music.

Right now I do most of my listening using my iPhone 5S and Etymotic Research ER4S's or Sennheiser HD595's. I tried using the digital out from the iPhone to a JDS Labs C5D amp/DAC combo--what an annoying thing, having a "stack" of portable equipment held together with a rubber band!--and there just wasn't nearly enough sonic benefit over listening straight out of the iPhone. There was with the Grado SR225's, but not with the ER4S's or the HD595's.

I don't know why there is this notion that low impedance headphones are "easier" to drive! That's the opposite of the truth! It may be easier to drive them LOUDER, but it is harder to drive them more faithfully! If your amp can deliver enough voltage to get the SPL you need, well then the higher the headphone impedance the better. And many op amps actually require a 10 ohm resistance at the output to stabilize the loop. Hence the 10+ ohm output impedance of the Sony PHA-1. The iPhone 5S has a 2.3 ohm output impedance, so the 50 ohm (I think that's right) 595's or the 100 ohm ER4S's are good pairings. And just synergistically they both work well.

But the real sound quality comes from the ER4S's! I've rarely heard sound that good from any system I've experienced over the years. And it's incredibly portable. And perfectly private. No one can hear what I am listening to even if they are right next to me! Even very late at night I can enjoy my music as loud as I please! And what bass! Extended, perfectly neutral, and tight as can be.

Is that an "audiophile" setup? Ah, no. For that I'd need, say, the CEntrance HiFi-M8, Sennheiser HD800's, and some stupidly expensive portable source unit with optical output or something. Or an iPhone with Tuneshell and 24/96 sources, etc.

No thanks. I'd rather take that same money and invest it in more music--which I am always buying--and maybe a Dave Smith Prophet 12 and a Korg Wavedrum and a Rode NT1A kit, and a portable vocal booth, and of course a Korg Kronos X 61 key. Ah well, I guess my Korg Triton Extreme 61 key will have to do for now. 

But that's just me. If others feel these sorts of things increase their enjoyment of their music, then that's great! It really is. I'm just not one of those people. And it's NOT because I don't care about sound quality or can't tell good sound from bad. I don't think we'll ever see the death of the audiophile, but at the same time, I do think that the sound quality experienced by the average person is probably as good as or better than it was 20-30 years ago. And there is way more and really great music easily available. It's easier than ever to find new amazing music, to branch out, to sample, to explore. And I love it. I don't ever want to go back to being limited to what was on the radio or what my friends owned or what the music stores decided to put out at listening stations.

As far as I'm concerned this is a golden age for music lovers! And that's what's really important in my opinion, not whether or not more and more people are putting weird cones under monstrously sized speakers with $1000 cables connecting them to tube amps which generate enough heat to fry an egg.


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## StarHalo (Nov 2, 2014)

Tidal, a new streaming music library app similar to Spotify but with* all lossless content*, 25 million tracks in all. But do you value the added audio quality enough to pay twice as much for it - $20/mo?


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## mcm308 (Nov 2, 2014)

I am an audiophile but spend all my money on mobile equipment for my vehicles.


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## StarHalo (Jun 21, 2015)

2015 Update: Guess I'm all growed up, $1000+ for headphone listening:


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## raggie33 (Jun 21, 2015)

StarHalo said:


> 2015 Update: Guess I'm all growed up, $1000+ for headphone listening:


I have a fiio x1 sounds amazeing my headphones are audiotechcia


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## Chauncey Gardiner (Jun 21, 2015)

StarHalo said:


> 2015 Update: Guess I'm all growed up, $1000+ for headphone listening:




Holy mother of headphones!!

~ Chance


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## Grizzman (Jun 21, 2015)

I'm a big fan of Ray Samuels Audio and upper end Sennheiser (especially after a cable upgrade).


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## fyrstormer (Jun 27, 2015)

I took about a month to re-rip my CD collection into FLAC format and calculated ReplayGain values for the files, and I just bought a second-generation FiiO X3 to put the files on. My god, what amazing sound. I'm hearing nuances I never heard before, and even before now I never listened to "low quality" recordings if I could possibly help it.


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## AndyF (Jun 27, 2015)

Grizzman said:


> I'm a big fan of Ray Samuels Audio and upper end Sennheiser (especially after a cable upgrade).



Which RSA do you have?. I really enjoy my Hornet.


Sent from my iPhone using Candlepowerforums


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## Grizzman (Jun 27, 2015)

I've had a Hornet for about 7 years. I bought an SR-71B a couple years ago. It easily outperforms the Hornet in single ended mode, and is unreal when run balanced.


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## StarHalo (Aug 18, 2015)

Here we go: Klipsch brings us into the Dolby Atmos age with their new Reference Premiere floorstanders, featuring the top-mounted "elevation" channel/speaker to bounce off your ceiling:


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## Lantern32 (Aug 18, 2015)

I am an audiophile. I have about 3 different stereo systems, and about 10 pairs of headphones, and like 6 pairs of earbuds. I look for extremely low bass that is balanced with the highs. It is a neutral sound signature that is best. The funny thing is that I'm a flashaholic too.

EDIT: You know you are an audiophile when you are extremely picky about the sound of the music. If I listen to any music, I want it to be crystal clear. I have extremely good perception of distortion, so I make sure I get a good speaker. I also look at the frequency range of my speakers. Can they go down to 5HZ? 20HZ? Makes a huge difference! Can I enjoy music listening to beats? No! The sound from beats headphones has too much Mid-bass. 

Mid-bass is the quite overpowering type of bass that is at a higher frequency. The rumbling sound you hear at the movie theater, that is sub-bass. It is the product of a high quality speaker. When bass is in the very low frequency range, it tends to interfere less with the clarity of the rest of your music.


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## harro (Aug 18, 2015)

I have a couple of amps,
Yamaha A560
Yamaha A045
Yamaha RX-V620 ( biggest heap of crap, at least for 2 channel stuff, acceptable for 5.1 )
NAD 356 BEEG
TU8200 Tube 8w + 8w
My favourite would be the TU8200 through Visaton's Classic 200 floorstanders ( very clean ) or Krix Lyrics cabinets re speakered with Vifa stuff ( a touch heavy, but ok for most ) or the HD650's.
I just like music, not how it tickles my innermost ear canal hairs. Quiet to moderate levels, are good.

Some interesting comments made about tube amps in this thread. Quite probably true about a lot of tube enthusiasts who cant pick the difference between pure Class A tube, and efficient, up to date Class D intergrated circuitry. For me, the most apparent difference is after a couple of hours of listening, is how tube is still easy to listen to, whereas ic tends to reveal a rather sharpish edge, which can be tiring. I would stress that this is just how it affects me, and is only my opinion. Another aspect of tube which i find appealing, is the warm orange glow coming from those glass vac tubes, a reminder of how music used to be, a bit different to the black cabinet of my NAD356BEEG. Oh, and the inefficiency of a Class A tube amp also acting as a room heater, is nice, when listening during the cooler months!!

Pic of my tube amp in darkened room...





At the bottom of the left side power tube ( large ) can be seen spill from the blue led power on indicator. The deeper blue higher up on both power tubes, is fluorescence from electron flow, escaping from the anode, and hitting the inside face of the glass envelope, a normal tube amp phenomenon.


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## MrJino (Apr 21, 2016)

Apologies for resurrection...

I dont think the audiophile went away, but is evolving slowly. Music has slipped more and more into the digital side, but equipment have been working to incorporate it a guess.

Recently got a modest stereo, and it's like being reintroduced to music, once you have a decent pair of speakers meant for clarity.

Just make sure you have a decent DAC (digital to analog converter) if you play off a digital device like a smart phone or computer.

Audio hobby is quite demanding on your wallet though!


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## Steve K (Apr 28, 2016)

MrJino said:


> Apologies for resurrection...



not a problem! 




MrJino said:


> Just make sure you have a decent DAC (digital to analog converter) if you play off a digital device like a smart phone or computer.
> 
> Audio hobby is quite demanding on your wallet though!



As someone who started buying music when vinyl and cassettes were the cutting edge, I haven't much bothered to follow the latest technology. My CD's have been ripped to mp3, and my vinyl has also been converted. For mobile listening, I'll use a mp3 player of some type, but otherwise listen to the CDs. .. and periodically play the vinyl too.. 

Can someone clarify how a DAC is connected to a smart phone? Through the USB bus, I assume? My reflex is to wonder why the flash memory isn't just built into the DAC, or why a USB flash drive isn't used to store the music, but..... then I suppose the assumption is that everyone is already carrying their phone. 

I've never gotten that involved in the audiophile extremes of the hobby. I do appreciate listening to some good speakers and headphones, though.


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## bykfixer (Apr 28, 2016)

As a what I'll call _former_ audiophile I'll say that in my experience the number of audiophiles are probably dwindling in number, but still plentiful.

I say dwindling because of MP3 and portablility. I say former audiophile because once upon a time tunes from a table radio were like finger nails on a chalk board. These days I've grown used to kazoo sounding cel phone speakers eminatting music from nearby youngsters, am radio (because I'm now a fuddy-duddy), and enjoy the muddied sound stage of a modern automotive sound system with 320mps MP3's playing. 

Some days a polished CD sounds like mono to me in my Shure headphones. Other days I can actually hear a open/airy soundstage presence from my Klipsch computer satellites. So my hearing obviously varies as I get older. 

For years I'd arrange a room around my Klipsch Hersheys. I'd pick furniture, curtains and even chemical make up of paint for the walls back then. 

These days it seems we've been drowned out by all the modern minaturizations that have watered down the details in exchange for 'punch' and 'thump' which the masses gobble up like park ducks eating stale bread tossed by little kids. 

Frankly it doesn't bother me all that much. It's actually kinda nice to pick a sofa based on how comfy it is vs how's it's going to effect the midrange of my speakers. lol


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## Lynx_Arc (Apr 28, 2016)

Steve K said:


> not a problem!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


To put it simply speakers and earphones are analog devices to in order to hear using them you need a DAC to convert the digital information to analog which can then but put through an analog amplifier circuit to power speakers etc. The opposite of a DAC is an ADC or Analog to Digital Convertor this can be done with hardware or as in the case hooking up a record player or cassette player or microphone into your computer and recording the analog stream coming through those devices is converted into digital format. MP3 files are a compressed digital format WAV files are uncompressed digital format files. Essentially anything a computer can read directly without "recording" is already in some sort of digital format. You can use a USB stick (flash drive), CD, DVD, floppy disc, hard drive, memory on phones either flash or ram. 
The main reason people use MP3 format is that you can get a pretty close to the original copy of the original music that takes up about 1/5 or less the size that an uncompressed digital copy of the music would thus allowing for storage of more music in less space. Movies on DVD and Blu-Ray use compression also to reduce file storage sizes. 

The purists (or some audiophile extremists) tend to not like any compression at all and some don't even want digital amplifiers either some even go so far as to desire tube type amplifiers and original vinyl records they claim they "sound better" to them. I guess some do have a lot better hearing in that they can distinguish sounds better than most of us do but often they are just snobs that when tested can't really tell the difference between things they say are better and other things they say aren't. 
Today with storage size begin cheaper and cheaper most people are opting to convert their music into lossless compression formats that take up less space that uncompressed formats but considerably more than compressed formats like MP3. 
I've even seen people taking old hard drive based IPODs (versions 5-7) and put in larger drives or flash memory taking some of them up into the 1 Gigabyte range so they can store FLACs on them (Lossless compressed file format). 

My advice to those considering all this audio stuff is go with what sounds good that works well for you and don't buy into people who say X is better than what you are using instead try it and see for yourself more often than not it isn't that much better. I've got all my 40+ Gigs of music ripped from over 500 cds on my computer and soon a 60 Gig ipod and one day a smart phone that has enough memory for it. 

In the end the audiophile exists in several formats 1)old technology purists 2)hybrid old/new technology 3)digital technology geeks. As someone who always wanted a stereo with 12-15 inch woofers (1 per channel L/R) and a rack of components I've now changed my thinking to newer technology a 5.1 or greater subwoofer/satellite speaker system that does dual purpose music/tv and instead of stacks of individual albums on whatever format you have to swap in/out to a single mechanical player converting to digital format and reading them all on one device is the way to go.


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## StarHalo (Apr 28, 2016)

Steve K said:


> Can someone clarify how a DAC is connected to a smart phone?



The DAC identifies itself as a sound card, so when connected via USB, it becomes the sound out for the device. You need the camera connection kit for the iPhone to connect USB devices, seen below; I use and recommend Spotify (also seen below,) no need for files at all..


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## Steve K (Apr 28, 2016)

StarHalo said:


> The DAC identifies itself as a sound card, so when connected via USB, it becomes the sound out for the device. You need the camera connection kit for the iPhone to connect USB devices, seen below; I use and recommend Spotify (also seen below,) no need for files at all..



thanks... and it reminds me that the virtue of a phone or iPod is that it acts as the user interface. 

I'm surprised that a work-around like the camera connection it is required... or is this just an Apple vs Microsoft (or Android) issue? Not that it will matter to me anytime soon, but I do find it interesting. 

Back to the broader issue of whether audio enthusiasts are dying out.. I'll admit that I have less time to listen to music. Maybe this is just adulthood, or perhaps it's the competition with other forms of entertainment (like spending time on flashlight forums?). I've just got too much to do. Along the same lines, I've got a stack of magazines and books waiting to be read. <sigh>


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## StarHalo (Apr 28, 2016)

Steve K said:


> I'm surprised that a work-around like the camera connection it is required... or is this just an Apple vs Microsoft (or Android) issue? Not that it will matter to me anytime soon, but I do find it interesting.
> 
> I'll admit that I have less time to listen to music. Maybe this is just adulthood, or perhaps it's the competition with other forms of entertainment (like spending time on flashlight forums?). I've just got too much to do. Along the same lines, I've got a stack of magazines and books waiting to be read. <sigh>



No USB port on an iPhone, it's the proprietary Lightning port, which requires an adapter for USB connection. You can't connect media (hard drive/card reader/etc) to the port anyway, since there's no file management system. 

The time-for-music problem is best resolved with a Bluetooth speaker and a music service, like Spotify; part of what makes Spotify amazing is the insane number of playlists for every possible taste - if you've got a Bluetooth speaker, just pick one that looks interesting and set the speaker somewhere nearby while you do something else (like browse flashlight forums.) No multitasking required, you don't have to worry about selecting songs or minding a media player window, just enjoy some pleasant background sonic wallpaper you happened to run across.. And since the speaker can go anywhere, you can listen anywhere; while shaving, making breakfast, on the porch, etc.

For books, put Kindle on your phone. Next time you're in a waiting room of some kind, a long line, waiting at a railroad crossing, just open Kindle and get through a few more pages. I've read a small shelf of big books that way..


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## Steve K (Apr 29, 2016)

@Starhalo: I've got an iPod, so I'm familiar with the connector. I haven't been that fond of having to use iTune as the interface to get files on and off of it, with the odd exception of getting photos off of it. I also have a little Sansa Clip mp3 player & radio that acts as a simple USB peripheral and is so much easier to deal with. 

To the credit of the iPod and the Sansa Clip, they really don't sound bad when using good headphones. It seems to be better than what I get when using bluetooth to link to my stereo. .. oh... I should mention that I did buy a little bluetooth receiver gadget, which might be the one that you recommended. Kinda handy, but the bluetooth range is limited enough to be problematic in my typical use. The sound is a bit compromised too, at least that's my impression. I've started to just put CD's in my player, which does sound better, and helps justify keeping the CD player around. 

As for bluetooth speakers, I recently obtained a Bose BT speaker as a retirement gift. It is the Bose SoundLink mini speaker. For the size, the sound is very good! It looks like it retails for $200, which I wouldn't have spent on it, but that probably say more about me than the speaker. When using it, I'm more likely to use it to listen to a podcast than to music, though. 

For me, a lot of the issue is that I'm more likely to listen to an interesting program on NPR (or podcast) than to listen to music. If I'm doing something that requires focus, the NPR program ends up as background noise in much the same way that music would. When I do listen to music, it is often as a background activity. It seems rare that I take the time to just listen to music (and not do anything else at the same time) in the way that I did in my youth.


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## Lynx_Arc (Apr 29, 2016)

Steve K said:


> @Starhalo: I've got an iPod, so I'm familiar with the connector. I haven't been that fond of having to use iTune as the interface to get files on and off of it, with the odd exception of getting photos off of it. I also have a little Sansa Clip mp3 player & radio that acts as a simple USB peripheral and is so much easier to deal with.
> 
> To the credit of the iPod and the Sansa Clip, they really don't sound bad when using good headphones. It seems to be better than what I get when using bluetooth to link to my stereo. .. oh... I should mention that I did buy a little bluetooth receiver gadget, which might be the one that you recommended. Kinda handy, but the bluetooth range is limited enough to be problematic in my typical use. The sound is a bit compromised too, at least that's my impression. I've started to just put CD's in my player, which does sound better, and helps justify keeping the CD player around.
> 
> ...


I have 2 older ipods (gen 5 and gen 5.5) and I use winamp to manage my music and I put photos on/off it using windows explorer in disc mode. I am not sure if it supports all new models or not but you can download ml_ipod plugin that claims to support the 120Gb version.


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## StarHalo (May 8, 2016)

Upgrade: Building up the headphone industrial complex; I didn't think there'd be this many wires..


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## MrJino (May 9, 2016)

My set up is fairly simple, since I don't have too much time to read about audio hardware, it gets complicated and people like to throw around words and abbreviations I have to constantly google.
So I went with a stereo with the least amount of buttons haha.
It basically just has input, power and volume on the face.
On the back panel, there's ports for 2 speakers, and a few inputs and outputs. Most stereos have 100s of buttons ports etc.
Plus I got a bluetooth adapter which plays off my phone.


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## Chauncey Gardiner (May 9, 2016)

....... and it [email protected]@Ks cool, Mr. Jino.

~ C.G.


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## StarHalo (May 26, 2016)

_The Force Awakens_ soundtrack LP, complete with etched "holograms" revealed with a bit of lighting when played:


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## orbital (Apr 17, 2021)

+

Behind me, at my computer, is an original hand crank record player,, it's old.
It's not an audiophile setup, but it doesn't_ stream_ either 



Funny thing, I have a 2.5K Samsung monitor sitting on top of it.


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## bykfixer (Apr 17, 2021)

So I was used to mp3 fidelity but my work truck did not have a 3.5" jack so I went back to cd's and man what a difference. Now I'm using an old android phone no longer in service to pump bluetooth to the truck and except for a few songs here and there the fidelity is pretty bad. Little to no sound stage with most of the songs playing. I tuned the fader and right/left to where all 4 speakers are at about the same volume but it's like listening to mono coming at me from 4 directions. 
Thing I ask the youngsters for a work around for adapting a 3.5" jack to a USB plug and they all say "just use bluetooth". Sadly it seems as though they don't even know what high fidelity even sounds like. All they've ever heard is wav files compressed to mp3 then squashed through bluetooth. Heck even my cassette player sounds better than that.


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## idleprocess (Apr 17, 2021)

bykfixer said:


> "just use bluetooth"


For me the issue with bluetooth isn't so much the quality hit as the multiple-choice reliability. There's a probability that it will fail to connect, randomly disconnect, lose pairing. Many devices also present the _multiple volume dials_ problem where both source and destination control volume - sensible when using a minimal headseat that only has a crude volume control if any, infuriating if you're using a head unit with its own volume controls.

I'll use bluetooth in the car very occasionally to get around a weird design flaw I've encountered in two different vehicles now where the 3.5mm line in jack suffers terrible interference whenever charging the device with a cigarette lighter adaptor - and even then mostly just to listen to podcasts where the audio quality isn't as important.


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## Lynx_Arc (Apr 17, 2021)

I have a Kenwood bluetooth car stereo (aftermarket) and it works flawlessly. I've had a problem on occasion where I had to turn the stereo off to get it to connect (reset) but I think that was because of trying to start the car several times. 99.9% of the time it streams bluetooth automatically and flawlessly and it even has software to improve MP3 quality in the car stereo. You can hit forward back and pause buttons while streaming from my phone on the car stereo and it displays the song title and artist or title/album or other info choices.


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## harro (Apr 24, 2021)

bykfixer said:


> Sadly it seems as though they don't even know what high fidelity even sounds like. All they've ever heard is wav files compressed to mp3 then squashed through bluetooth. Heck even my cassette player sounds better than that.



EXACTLY. Many don't understand compression ( maybe they think its something to do with a car engine, or something else as equally obscure..... ), they also seem happy with 64 - 128kbps. Quality from most streamers standard services and FM radio etc. They dont understand the renewed interest in vinyl, or what odd and even order distortion is. They wouldnt pay for ' Premium, HiFi or Lossless ' streaming. But then, there's nothing worse or more grating than an audiophile who insists their system is the greatest, and everyone else's approach to it is on the wrong path. I guess the old saying ' The right system is the one that sounds best to your ears ' still holds true.

While this is great





its not to say this is wrong
https://www.bing.com/images/search?...P.VkETy0utybTO4nrxMWLL4wHaGx&mediaurl=https:%

Still fun showing a non torchaholic what a real torch can do though, and, extrapolating that fun to audio, within a VERY limited budget, what uncompressed music sounds like.


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## ma tumba (Apr 24, 2021)

I would also mention that if you have junk at the source then you would expect either compressed or uncompressed junk out of the system. 

And so many recordings are just junk at the source that I really don"t see much sense in investing so much effort in the system.

I used to be a videophile and at some point of time I got a top laserdisk player (cld-97) and top videoprocessor (crystalio ii) just to watch a rare Japanese star wars laserdisk which was the best source for the original trilogy at that time. And now what? Now I am happy to watch movies on my old 24" monitor. 

Content is what really matters, that is my understanding now.


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## harro (Apr 24, 2021)

ma tumba said:


> I would also mention that if you have junk at the source then you would expect either compressed or uncompressed junk out of the system.
> 
> And so many recordings are just junk at the source that I really don"t see much sense in investing so much effort in the system.
> 
> ...



Wow, that was commitment. Yeah, things change, we change, etc etc. I tend to like the way in which the audio is produced, from a hark back to earlier times. Others, from a single chip.......all good. Its funny to go onto an audiophile forum, and watch all the butthurt from some audiophiles ( not all, most are very dedicated and passionate about their hobby/lifestyle ) who believe their way is the only way. Or that you have to spend tens or even hundreds of thousands of $$$ to enjoy lossless quality audio. Who's to say that audio the way that we perceive it isnt on its way out, and that compression is the way of the future. That content is all that matters, not reproduction of. Maybe the audiophile is getting rather long in the tooth...... Haha, sorry for the ramble.


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## bykfixer (Apr 24, 2021)

If one has never experienced the sound of faithfully reproduced music heard in "the sweet spot" between a good sounding set of speakers from a good sounding source then one would not understand what all the fuss is about. Analog medium was capable of doing a pretty good job of sounding pretty similar to the real thing. 

Digital came along and the masses flocked to that. To the audiophile it was like fingernails on a chalk board with all that boosted bass and treble. The sound waves cut like sharp glass to the ears of the audiophile. While the crowd shouted "more more more" as in decibels from their $99 Circuit City bought compact disc player the audiophile was content with a reel to reel recording much like the music studio where the original material was recorded. 

Some say the tranistor began the demise of the audiophile recording. Tube equipment does have a warmth to it not achieved by the solid state equipment but to me the tube equipment sounds a little flat after a while. Probably because I grew up listening to solid state equipment so the old Macintosh tube amp sounds a bit foreign to my brain.

They had compression back then. It was called Dolby. Some used DBX, which became like the Beta Max. Far superior noise reduction but never caught on and disappeared. With digital there was no compression needed. The cd player did not have the equivelent of PWM to the discerning masses. "No more hiss, yay!" they shouted. The issue for the audiophile was not the lack of hiss but the conversion from digital to analog. The more times a computer attempted to convert it the worse it sounded to the audiophile. Many companies touted "15x, 20x, 25x" conversion rates. To the ears of the audiophile it was like going from 200 grit to 2000 grit sandpaper. 

Those were dark times for the audiophile. Companies like Nakamichi and Teac were producing some pretty good sounding cassette recorders while Maxell was producing some pretty good blank tapes. So one could record that fragile vinyl album after playing it once to make sure no skips occured and stash that precious disk in pristine condition for the eventual day the cassette tape failed. Albums were made of plastic and the record player used a diamond tip needle to scratch the sound from the vinyl medium. But now it looked as if the cassette medium would be replaced with that ridiculous digital thing. Folks like me stocked up on blank cassettes, bought replacement tips for our record player "stylus" and stored that precious vinyl like cigar officiandos or wine connesuers. 

Then arrived the day that the digital medium had realized the err of its way and had come up with much smoother digital to analog conversions. Less was more. Instead of 25x now it was 1 or 2x. Some audiophiles made the move to digital after that. It was a compromise many could live with. The modern WAV won't so harsh anymore. But then came the MP3. Oh no here we go again. But just like Stereo Review had predicted, one could store 100 songs on a chip the size of a thumbnail. To the purist this was terrible. To the music industry it was death by a thousand cuts. Napster had the sword. Suddenly downloads became the way to acquire music. File sizes were reduced to ensure faster downloads when DSL was king. A whole generation had never experienced the full on fidelity of a live concert album. 

You don't miss what you never knew existed. Now those folks have kids. The iPod has been replaced with streaming. A 128gb micro SD card can be had for $25 at Wal Mart. When grandpa grabs one to go in his Sandisk MP3 player the 12 year old grandson says "what's that for grandpa?" 

I still have a Bang & Olufsen belt drive turntable, a few albums and a Yamaha pre-amp/power amp combo and Klipsch Hershey 2 speakers stashed away but as time marched on I used it less and less. All I listen to now are 320 sized MP3 files converted from CD's on a set of satelite speakers, bluetooth to my car or for my "audiophile" experience 2020 style some Shure ear buds. Some days I splurge and listen to the full range CD in my truck remembering when this was a reduction in fidelity. Compromise? For sure. But to some of us audiophiles convenience has its merits too. 

Are we near the death of the audiophile? Probably not. If you have $32 grand to plunk down on a set of speakers chances are good you don't get your music streamed from Pandora.


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## orbital (Apr 24, 2021)

bykfixer said:


> A 128gb micro SD card can be had for $25 at Wal Mart. When grandpa grabs one to go in his Sandisk MP3 player the 12 year old grandson says* "what's that for grandpa?*"



+

:laughing:--


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## harro (Apr 25, 2021)

" DIGITAL " 


Hmmm, yeah, a word that can mean so many things, good and bad, to such a large cross section of our wonderful world.
Look where we are with it, and where would we be without it.


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## idleprocess (Apr 25, 2021)

The _listening room_ of the ~1950s became the TV room which became the home theater room which is transitioning back to being the _living room_ (which it always was in the first place).

The reality of music is that a commanding majority of the market seems to have experienced it primarily _on the go_ for >20 years. _Hi-fi_ setups were quickly subordinated to _home theater_, itself seemingly fallout out of fashion with the masses largely content with a big screen 'smart' TV and a sound bar. Music is consumed during one's commute or during the workday - other times are largely incidental. Myself, if I'm going to sit down at home and be entertained, I generally sit in front of a screen and _watch something_; on the odd chance I want to listen to music I generally break out the headphones and plug in my phone _(3.5mm jack > Bluetooth reliability, quality)_.

Can I tell the difference between a 128kbs MP3 and a 320kbps MP3? Absolutely, on any equipment under almost any conditions. 320kbps MP3 and the source CD? Sure - with the right kind of music, some careful A/B testing, and some good headphones. Heck - I should just rip FLAC since device space isn't so much of an issue anymore.


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## Katherine Alicia (Apr 25, 2021)

A lot of todays tracks are ruined before they even become available and it`s done at the mastering stage, they compress and EQ the life out of it chasing Ideal rather than Real.
I take great care to record at 96k 24 bit and export as WAV (uncompressed), there`s no "mastering" stage for me, what you hear is what came out of my speakers when I made it.
But then you upload it Youtube or something and they compress the life out of it, or you give to a "professional" for mastering and you won`t even recognise afterwards (and not in a good way).

So even with best Hi-Fi system in the world, it`ll never sound as good as it did in the studio anymore


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## raggie33 (Apr 28, 2021)

Inever mind


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## raggie33 (Apr 28, 2021)

Is this decent? The amp not speakers https://photos.app.goo.gl/pQaE3E35T6CV5TxU7


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## adnj (Apr 28, 2021)

Katherine Alicia said:


> A lot of todays tracks are ruined before they even become available and it`s done at the mastering stage, they compress and EQ the life out of it chasing Ideal rather than Real.
> I take great care to record at 96k 24 bit and export as WAV (uncompressed), there`s no "mastering" stage for me, what you hear is what came out of my speakers when I made it.
> But then you upload it Youtube or something and they compress the life out of it, or you give to a "professional" for mastering and you won`t even recognise afterwards (and not in a good way).
> 
> So even with best Hi-Fi system in the world, it`ll never sound as good as it did in the studio anymore


I don't disagree with you here. Some of my work was on audio and video compression algorithms and you have hit a sweet spot for both sound capture and reproduction compatibility. 

If audiophile was synonymous with a direct drive turn table and a reel to reel tape deck, I am glad to see them go.

With a flagship phone from five years ago, a high quality WAV or FLAC file, and headphones of my choosing, I can listen to music reproduced better than anything that I could have on my dad's sprawling analog system.

And I can carry it with me on the subway.

Sent from my LG-V520 using Tapatalk


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## Lynx_Arc (Apr 28, 2021)

adnj said:


> I don't disagree with you here. Some of my work was on audio and video compression algorithms and you have hit a sweet spot for both sound capture and reproduction compatibility.
> 
> If audiophile was synonymous with a direct drive turn table and a reel to reel tape deck, I am glad to see them go.
> 
> ...



This ^
Portability and being able to access your entire music library on the go put the death blow to analog. The majority of us have gone digital one way or another for the convenience and options (bluetooth). 
I've done the turntable, Reel to Reel, Cassette, 8 Track, CD, MP3 CD, Ipod, and now smart phone bit and at each step the portability and ease of use increased. I think they have phones with far superior audio circuitry in them now than most analog systems can offer.


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## raggie33 (Apr 28, 2021)

we can fit all the music of everyone who posted in this thread on 10 micro sd cards


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## Katherine Alicia (Apr 28, 2021)

raggie33 said:


> we can fit all the music of everyone who posted in this thread on 10 micro sd cards




I dunno? I have over 100Gb of drum samples alone! LOL


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## raggie33 (Apr 28, 2021)

Katherine Alicia said:


> I dunno? I have over 100Gb of drum samples alone! LOL



thats a lot maybe 100 micro sd cards whch would weigh less then 1 vinyl album lol. they now have 1 terabyte micro sd cards. im in the market for the old non amped speakers. but it seems they dont amke many any more


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## Katherine Alicia (Apr 28, 2021)

Have you considered PA gear? my speakers don`t come with an amp but you probably don`t want anything near that size/power, so maybe something small like a couple of 100W Marshall speakers would do you?


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## raggie33 (Apr 28, 2021)

Katherine Alicia said:


> Have you considered PA gear? my speakers don`t come with an amp but you probably don`t want anything near that size/power, so maybe something small like a couple of 100W Marshall speakers would do you?



that would be good i listen mostly to rock and metal. so i dont like to much bass


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## Katherine Alicia (Apr 28, 2021)

raggie33 said:


> that would be good i listen mostly to rock and metal. so i dont like to much bass




well Marshall`s about as Rock`n`Roll as you get, I have a little 50W Mashall combo in my bedroon (it doubles as a seat LOL) they really sound good


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## raggie33 (Apr 28, 2021)

i found a amp is garbage today as a kid i got all my stuff from the trash ill look into marshal


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## Katherine Alicia (Apr 28, 2021)

Try to get a pair with the Celestion speakers in them, they`re the best!


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## bykfixer (Apr 28, 2021)

adnj said:


> If audiophile was synonymous with a direct drive turn table and a reel to reel tape deck, I am glad to see them go.
> 
> With a flagship phone from five years ago, a high quality WAV or FLAC file, and headphones of my choosing, I can listen to music reproduced better than anything that I could have on my dad's sprawling analog system.



A direct drive turntable was like a quartz watch. Convenient, yes but to the connesuer it was a compromise. A belt drive was better at reducing the slight rumble produced by the stylus rubbing the vinyl that showed up on a cassette tape used to record the album. The cassette never could match the sound quality of the reel to reel but TDK and Maxell had gotten pretty close by the time the compact disc reached circuit city. 

Many of the recordings converted to digital in the early CD days have been re-mastered to sound more like their original analog counter parts. 

To me, the audophile music system is like a mechanical wrist watch or film single reflex camera. Demand for them is on life support but the heart is still beating. If you like to tinker with a challenging project all three can be pretty rewarding once they get going again. A volume knob that makes static, a sticking aperature or a watch that stops every hour or so are disgarded by most anymore yet if you've ever fixed one you know that sweet feeling you get when it runs proper again. 






You end up doing the Harlem shake; geek-style.


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## raggie33 (Apr 28, 2021)

i recall at first cds was rated aad add ddd or something like that if i recal ddd was mastered digtaly


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## Lynx_Arc (Apr 28, 2021)

raggie33 said:


> i recall at first cds was rated aad add ddd or something like that if i recal ddd was mastered digtaly


DD= Dolby Digital


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## adnj (Apr 28, 2021)

bykfixer said:


> A direct drive turntable was like a quartz watch. Convenient, yes but to the connesuer it was a compromise. A belt drive was better at reducing the slight rumble produced by the stylus rubbing the vinyl that showed up on a cassette tape used to record the album. The cassette never could match the sound quality of the reel to reel but TDK and Maxell had gotten pretty close by the time the compact disc reached circuit city.
> 
> Many of the recordings converted to digital in the early CD days have been re-mastered to sound more like their original analog counter parts.
> 
> ...


You are not really speaking to what an audiophile is. You are speaking to what an antique sound system collector is. Perhaps you are simply interested in tweaking the system THD to the point where it is no longer noticeable. And that's okay, too.

As a watch aficionado, I accept that not a single mechanical will approach the accuracy of any quality quartz watches that I own. But I do like for it to be close.

Sent from my LG-V520 using Tapatalk


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## bykfixer (Apr 29, 2021)

I've no idea where to begin a response so I'll just agree to disagree……


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## scout24 (Apr 29, 2021)

May or may not fit well in this thread, but nobody told this guy it was over... 

"mini_wall_of_sound" on instagram, he's on FB as well with build details, etc. Fascinating project imho...

https://www.wsj.com/articles/gratef...ives-again-in-some-dudes-basement-11618161994


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## adnj (Apr 29, 2021)

Katherine Alicia said:


> I dunno? I have over 100Gb of drum samples alone! LOL


2Tb SD coming soon.






https://www.wired.com/2009/01/two-terabyte-sd/

Sent from my LG-V520 using Tapatalk


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## adnj (Apr 29, 2021)

bykfixer said:


> I've no idea where to begin a response so I'll just agree to disagree……


I'm not trying to beat up on you. I understand the niche that analog systems occupy and there are definite subtleties associated with listening to recorded media as it was intended to be listened to at the time of its creation. 

My perspective is from someone that spent some time in audio accuracy and reproduction. Designing a sound system and recreating the audio with nondiscernible distortion in the listening space was the objective. 

I seem to always hear noise or distortion on analog-source systems and I find it distracting. Many people cannot. Some people look for the noise as part of the charm. All of them are valid perspectives so far as I am concerned.



Sent from my LG-V520 using Tapatalk


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## bykfixer (Apr 29, 2021)

^^ Sounds like we have us an audiophile for the new millenium here.


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## Katherine Alicia (Apr 29, 2021)

In defense of some old tech, speaking both as an electronics design engineer and musician, the old Valves/Tubes when operated in the linear part of the curve are Massively superior to the transistors that replaced them, to get close you need to use FETs because PN junctions are seriously noisy even if gain-staged correctly.


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## Lynx_Arc (Apr 29, 2021)

adnj said:


> 2Tb SD coming soon.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I think my phone can handle it unless the tech changed from 2017. I dunno bout you but most of us don't need anywhere near that amount of space for audio, even many that rip songs in lossless formats.


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## Chauncey Gardiner (Apr 29, 2021)

"Live music is better. Bumper stickers should be issued." 

- Gentleman


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## raggie33 (Apr 29, 2021)

adnj said:


> 2Tb SD coming soon.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



thats amazeing truly mind blowing


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## Lynx_Arc (Apr 29, 2021)

raggie33 said:


> thats amazeing truly mind blowing



I still remember my first PC I built. I had a larger than average hard drive at 80MB and it has 4M of Ram and I thought I was in heaven when I upgraded to a 360MB hard drive and no longer needed Stacker on the drive to fit my stuff. When I got a 1GB drive after upgrading that system twice I had to use an overlay manager to get it to work (bios couldn't address the drive properly) and I never filled that drive. 
If it weren't for digital movies my small music collection would just make a dent in my 200GB SD card in my phone at 60GB of MP3s. I can't see a need for a 2TB SD card at this time for the majority of people unless you are recording video on your smart phone.


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## raggie33 (Apr 29, 2021)

Lynx_Arc said:


> I still remember my first PC I built. I had a larger than average hard drive at 80MB and it has 4M of Ram and I thought I was in heaven when I upgraded to a 360MB hard drive and no longer needed Stacker on the drive to fit my stuff. When I got a 1GB drive after upgrading that system twice I had to use an overlay manager to get it to work (bios couldn't address the drive properly) and I never filled that drive.
> If it weren't for digital movies my small music collection would just make a dent in my 200GB SD card in my phone at 60GB of MP3s. I can't see a need for a 2TB SD card at this time for the majority of people unless you are recording video on your smart phone.


lol i recall ram costing 22 bucks a meg . i love tech history ps if you like tech check out the new apple laptops with apple silicon


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## bykfixer (Apr 29, 2021)

The movie Act of Valor was "filmed" largely with a Canon 5D. Perhaps someday we'll be munching on popcorn watching a flick "filmed" on an Android phone by LG or Samsung as the phone cam gets better and better. A 2tb card would be pretty useful for a project like that.


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## raggie33 (Apr 29, 2021)

bykfixer said:


> The movie Act of Valor was "filmed" largely with a Canon 5D. Perhaps someday we'll be munching on popcorn watching a flick "filmed" on an Android phone by LG or Samsung as the phone cam gets better and better. A 2tb card would be pretty useful for a project like that.


im no expert but i belve you could have 20 hours of 4k movie at 2 tb


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## adnj (Apr 29, 2021)

bykfixer said:


> The movie Act of Valor was "filmed" largely with a Canon 5D. Perhaps someday we'll be munching on popcorn watching a flick "filmed" on an Android phone by LG or Samsung as the phone cam gets better and better. A 2tb card would be pretty useful for a project like that.






raggie33 said:


> im no expert but i belve you could have 20 hours of 4k movie at 2 tb


It's already a thing.

https://www.lafilm.edu/blog/5-films-shot-with-a-smartphone/

Sent from my LG-H870DS using Tapatalk


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## Lynx_Arc (Apr 29, 2021)

raggie33 said:


> lol i recall ram costing 22 bucks a meg . i love tech history ps if you like tech check out the new apple laptops with apple silicon



I remember buying some off a BBS online for about half of what it cost locally. I'm not an Apple fan, I think they are way overpriced.


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## raggie33 (Apr 29, 2021)

im not a huge mac software fan but i never once saw a laptop fast as my macbook and my mac has no fan or vents


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## Lynx_Arc (Apr 29, 2021)

raggie33 said:


> im not a huge mac software fan but i never once saw a laptop fast as my macbook and my mac has no fan or vents


They will all be faster and faster as time goes on. The first processor chips had no fans on them so doesn't surprise me that they would go for no fan in the end.


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## raggie33 (Apr 29, 2021)

Lynx_Arc said:


> They will all be faster and faster as time goes on. The first processor chips had no fans on them so doesn't surprise me that they would go for no fan in the end.



it will be awhile to intel can get there dies to 5nm ive heard amd may go to 3nm intel is 10 nm if i recall...i love gadgets back to the topic did you all like minidisk? my sony sounded amazeing


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## Lynx_Arc (Apr 29, 2021)

raggie33 said:


> it will be awhile to intel can get there dies to 5nm ive heard amd may go to 3nm intel is 10 nm if i recall...i love gadgets back to the topic did you all like minidisk? my sony sounded amazeing


I'm far behind on computer hardware but I think Intel may need to go to 7nm before they go to 5 as likely to go to 5 requires a lot of new tech and 3nm may not be possible for a long time as the smaller you get the harder it is to isolate interference between connections and at higher and higher speeds you can get more interference I would think.
The mini DVDs are ok but I never got to use them I bought them in case I wanted to do backups and put in a safe deposit box but that was over a decade ago with flash memory and USB sticks surpassing the hard drive sizes back when I ordered the discs no sense in using the tech unless you want to give it away and less and less folks have dvd drives around in their hardware be it computer or laptop or tablet/phone.


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## bykfixer (May 6, 2021)

I just started driving a Ford with a B&O made system for work. It's pretty basic in a sense with no touch scteen or bells and whistles but I don't care about that stuff anyway. I like the way it sounds and without that no gizmos or gadgets matter anyway. At least to me. Using 320 or less mp3's through bluetooth I was not expecting to hear anything beyond the ability of a good cassette player of days gone by but overall it's been a pleasant surprise. Even the FM radio is tolerable. 
Some of the tunes I have listened to for 20 years took on an improved experience as I could hear some details I hadn't heard before. Lousy produced songs still sound lousy so there's no getting around that. 

At first it seemed as if somebody had turned down the singers microphone as the instruments drowned out the singing. But I adjusted bass, treble and mid range back to 0 and adjusted the "experience" from driver only to "everyone" and it began to sound pretty normal. Someone ahead of me had adjusted levels to their liking. A good sound system and well recorded song should sound really nice with no tweaks to levels. Live music recodred in small pubs or theatres took on a nice airy sound with a near surround sound as echoes could be heard bouncing off the back wall. 

To me the only thing missing is voices coming from in front of me as the way this one is set up the voices come from right and left as if I'm listening to a stack of Peavy's on each side of the stage and not the actual musicians playing like you'd hear at an jazz show or a symphony. But it sounds pretty good overall so I tip my hat to whoever designed the setup as they must have either been an audiophile or were trying to impress one. I know I was impressed. Considering how much the music I listened to driving about 300 miles the last two days I can't wait to put together a sweet sounding compilation on a flashdrive and try that out. I suppose if it had a center speaker on the dash that might improve the impression of an actual live experience but hey, it's a work vehicle the company provides so I won't pick nits about it. It's loud enough to where I can't hear my own horn honk when it's cranked up to about 90% on a dynamic recording but by then distorion and reverberations set in. So at about 60% cranked it sounds pretty sweet with only a small amount of distortion setting in at around 70%. Good enough. 

I'm using an android 9 stock music player that my vehicle communicates with so that's sweet as well. Raising and lowering volume and advancing/reversing songs from the steering wheel is an added bonus. With WinAmp I had to use the actual android device to forward or reverse the songs.


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## raggie33 (May 7, 2021)

do big speakers sound better //?


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## Katherine Alicia (May 7, 2021)

raggie33 said:


> do big speakers sound better //?




Yes, Always (if they`re good ones).


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## raggie33 (May 7, 2021)

cool i thought so


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## Lynx_Arc (May 7, 2021)

raggie33 said:


> do big speakers sound better //?


Not always, bigger often means better bass but Treble and midranges can be done with smaller speakers well enough and when I was a teenager the 15 inch woofer was king but now we have subwoofers that can match them in output that are 8 and 10 inches. 
A decent 5.1-7.2 etc system can often match or exceed the performance of big tower speakers of the past. In other words it isn't always that easy rather speakers can be all over the place in performance and price and can be complicate with crossovers and amps and graphic equalizers.


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## Katherine Alicia (May 7, 2021)

bigger cones move more air even at low volumes and sound a ton better, and "big speakers" will come with a Midrange horn and bullet tweeter anyway, so you don`t lose any response at any frequency and they`re less directional as well and fill an area much more evenly (even outdoors).


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## LEDphile (May 7, 2021)

Katherine Alicia said:


> bigger cones move more air even at low volumes and sound a ton better, and "big speakers" will come with a Midrange horn and bullet tweeter anyway, so you don`t lose any response at any frequency and they`re less directional as well and fill an area much more evenly (even outdoors).


 Directionality is a function of the wavelength involved, the size of the radiating source, and the interaction of the radiating source with any "nearby" boundaries (e.g. the walls of a horn). Directionality increases as the source size increases relative to the wavelength of interest, so for a given frequency, a large speaker will be more directional than a small one. When the wavelength equals the dimension of the radiating source, the coverage pattern (6dB down points) is roughly 90 degrees. For a 12" loudspeaker, this is approximately 1khz.


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## Katherine Alicia (May 7, 2021)

I wouldn`t drive a 12" at anywhere near 1k, that`s the Midrange`s domain.


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## bykfixer (May 7, 2021)

In general yes bigger speakers can sound better, but it's not that smaller ones can't sound as good either. The box they are built in can play a role as well. My old Klipsch KG2's sound like much bigger speakers for a number of reasons, even at low volume. But the Hershey's just sound better.


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## raggie33 (May 7, 2021)

How bad does this system suck? 
https://photos.app.goo.gl/LMorbrxQMKUypUCY7


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## orbital (May 7, 2021)

+

raggie, just adding a subwoofer will change your world. Maybe something like this for $118
I'v purchased 'renewed' for another brand & it was absolutely brand new,, so maybeee!

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07N2VB59H/?tag=cpf0b6-20


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## Chauncey Gardiner (May 7, 2021)

raggie33 said:


> How bad does this system suck?
> https://photos.app.goo.gl/LMorbrxQMKUypUCY7



Actually, just the hole in the wall. That's the only thing I see that sucks. Fix that!


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## Katherine Alicia (May 8, 2021)

get some distance between your L and R channels as well and try not to have them facing square to a wall, can you put them on something too for a bit of height? 
and unless you fill your room with people you`ll need furniture and carpet and stuff on the walls to cut down relections.


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## raggie33 (May 8, 2021)

Chauncey Gardiner said:


> Actually, just the hole in the wall. That's the only thing I see that sucks. Fix that!



i got so much to fix last thing was my sliding glass door was broke by landscapers lol


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## raggie33 (May 9, 2021)

Katherine Alicia said:


> get some distance between your L and R channels as well and try not to have them facing square to a wall, can you put them on something too for a bit of height?
> and unless you fill your room with people you`ll need furniture and carpet and stuff on the walls to cut down relections.



ill try that i love when the cymbals are crisp


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## raggie33 (May 10, 2021)

Bare speakers https://photos.app.goo.gl/yLUGWTL9jfjrcjLu8


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## bykfixer (May 21, 2021)

One night my son and I were sitting outside of a 7-11 having a slurpee when any ordinary vehicle pulls up into a parking spot. When the driver got out I noticed the rear doors of the Suburban were big ole 12" car stereo speakers instead of windows. The guy walks in the place and grabs a cup of coffee like many would at 2am just trying to get home I figured. When he came out and walked past I asked "is it loud?" He smiled and said "no but it sure does sound good." The he says "wanna hear it?" Turns out he was a sales rep for a big name speaker company and the Suburban was the companies demo vehicle. 

Setting in the passenger seat seemed like just any other passenger seat until he put in a Norah Jones live cd and turned the volume knob to about the 10 o'clock position. It was as if Norah and her piano were playing right there in that Suburban. It was the smoothest "loud" I had ever heard inside an automobile. My son was outside so I mouthed the words "can you hear it" and he held up his fingers in a "a little bit" gesture. The rep and I could actually talk to each other over the music. Yelling of course but the accoustics were so crisp and clean it was like being at a live concert. 

The thing has 12,000 watts of power pumping through 24 speakers. The windows were coated with an accoustic laminate and the doors were all filled with light weight concrete. He said "the kids always ask to see it bounce a quarter on the roof but the quarter just lays there". He had 2 extra batteries under the hood and a spare alternator powering them. He said the biggest expense was beefing up the suspension and brakes because it was so heavy. I asked him if it was his daily driver and he said no a Mustang was his daily. I said "yeah, I'll bet it's got a nice stereo, huh?" He said "nah, it's stock". He said when he is in his personal ride he hardly listens to music. 

So at times I think of that event when I turn up my stock stereo to 12 out of 30 and start noticing mild distortion already. I tolerate it remembering that one summer night when a genuine audiophile shared his pride and joy with my son and I.


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## raggie33 (May 21, 2021)

apple just changed the game forever.


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## raggie33 (May 26, 2021)

my system is blowing my mind on sound quality. old pionner amp with cheap sony speakers


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## Scotty321 (May 27, 2021)

Katherine Alicia said:


> I wouldn`t drive a 12" at anywhere near 1k, that`s the Midrange`s domain.



Back in highschool, I used to work at Bag End testing the QC on their ELF systems, putting together some speaker cabinets, and driving empty cabinet shells from a custom maker over state lines to our factory. Our smallest loudspeaker setup demo used two 15" midrange with 12" tweeters (horns) and four 18" subwoofers, IIRC. Our studio speakers (for a smaller space) were of course smaller. If designed properly, a 15" midrange speaker (plus matched tweeter) should be more efficient AND handle more power than smaller midrange speakers designed around the same frequency range.

There are a lot of concepts, but many of them are pretty simple. Pickup a 90's shelf speaker system from Goodwill for $5, and assuming proper porting and frequency division amongst drivers, speaker vs listener placement, speaker direction, and room design, you will have a better setup than some $300 bookshelf systems that someone just stuck in open spots on their TV stand.

Then there are fun things like time delay between high, mid, and low frequency drivers to match the sound waves for both speaker inertia, difference in mounting depth of drivers - i.e. tweeter next to a midrange, subwoofer placement and phase to match the midrange, room acoustics, etc. There's size and design of the subwoofer (you can find pics on the internet of some audiophiles converting their basement into a horn for the subwoofer), not to mention the frequencies lacking in digitally recorded music and/or compression (e.g. record player vs audio DVD vs CD vs MP3). I didn't go so far as to learn the better component and amplifier systems, as we did not make them and used industry accepted brands for recording studios, concert halls, theaters, etc.

Things get more complicated when you're talking about inside a vehicle... especially if you design the system for more than one seat/listener in the vehicle. I think custom car stereo designs are old school, and nowadays stock "performace" audio systems attempt to just focus on the ability to deliver a wider frequency range, even if it's not level or aligned, and spacial orientation of the musicians is completely lost.

Now, at my age and hearing related degradation (normal), I gave up on sonic Nirvana. Maybe one day I'll get back into it.


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## bykfixer (May 27, 2021)

Well said Scotty. 
I gave up on music nirvana too and just enjoy it for what it is.


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## Lynx_Arc (May 27, 2021)

Too many idiots that turn the sound up so loud that after awhile they don't need a great audio system only a more powerful one because they have ruined their hearing.


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## raggie33 (May 27, 2021)

Lynx_Arc said:


> Too many idiots that turn the sound up so loud that after awhile they don't need a great audio system only a more powerful one because they have ruined their hearing.



thats me dude years of walkmans and heavy metal. but metal is so great it needs to be loud. you know what they say if its to loud?


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## Chauncey Gardiner (May 27, 2021)

raggie33 said:


> thats me dude years of walkmans and heavy metal. but metal is so great it needs to be loud. you know what they say if its to loud?



"You're too old!" Is that right, raggie?


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## raggie33 (May 27, 2021)

Chauncey Gardiner said:


> "You're too old!" Is that right, raggie?


ive been old for a few decades now im ancient . i truly have no idea how i can still hear ive had some crazy walkmans with crazy amps they pluged into. but oddly i can still here stuff no one else hears .lo last night my hearing scared me . i have a new pet guiinia pig around 4 am it started screaming some wierd whistling scared me pretty good


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## bykfixer (May 29, 2021)

In my work vehicle there is an option to digitally dial the speakers for driver only. Trouble is that ends up sounding like an AM radio. When it's optomized for all occupants there are all kinds of weird reflections while listening to a bluetooth broadcast. 
To sit in the sweet spot like the old days in my rocker chair between a pair of Klipsch means sitting on a sex blocker console between the buckets that's about the size of a ten speed bicycle seat. No thanks. Definitely a no go for driving either. I noticed if the driver seat is raised up to the typical height of an SUV driver the reflections are not as noticeable. Yet I keep the seat lowered to the height of a passenger car so I don't need a stepping stool to get out. Reflections create a unique sound though. It's kinda like being in the mens bathroom at a concert hall. If you've ever been in a restaraunt bathroom with ceramic lined everything where they pump in music……kinda like that. I've grown to like it since at times it brings out little nuances of a rythm guitar or a precussion intrument usually drowned out by other instruments. Yet at times it seems like I'm listening to the kareoke version as the singer's voice is really subdued. 

There are times I set in other seats in the vehicle to do my computer work. While up front if the sun is glaring on the silver body laptop causing my eyes to plead for mercy I'll sit in one of the back seats. And each seat has its own unique sound experience. When the volume is turned up to a bit over normal conversation level it sounds pretty sweet. Yet if I want to feel the accoustics of a Smashing Pumkins jammer the charm goes away pretty quickly due to all those reflections and my ears begin to beg for mercy. 

I'm actually amazed at how well the modern automobile system can sound at the right volume(s). I am about to embark on a Lexus car project where part of the project is to fix up the failing sound system. I've not really done any research except to know Crutchfield carries units that can replace the stock unit, but they all have that flashy-look at me display bling. My last project involved adapting a high end Bose stereo from an 012 Chevy pickup into a Honda coupe, including the 8" subwoofer in the center console. The car proved unreliable so I never got to the point of actual installation, but knew it could be done pretty easily. So while the conventional wisdom for a Lexus is either install a fragile, high dollar Mark Levinson system or go with one of those flaky gizmos from Crutchfield. I do not care what's on Sports Center tv while driving and generally know what city I'm driving to so all that touchscreen nonsense is not what I'll be seeking. 

My son has a really nice Acura with the giant display either showing him a map of where he's going or nothing……not even a clock. I want a volume knob, a tuning knob and a few buttons on the body. Heck, even if the clock has numbers that look like an alphabet soup letters in pea soup LCD I'm ok with that. Besides, nobody would want to smash n grab an old Gameboy looking stereo anyway. The quest will be to adapt an old school looking radio unit from a modern vehicle to the existing speakers and amp currently in the car even if it involves all new wiring stem to stern. But first I'm making sure the car that has 252k miles on the odometer is going to hold up well enough to bother doing it. For now the radio is set on a smooth jazz radio station and set at a volume where it's quietly adding a bit of charming background noise as Mrs Fixer and I do our old married couple date night to Wal Mart or a barbecue joint.


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## raggie33 (Jun 4, 2021)

well looks like my feeling on my sony speakers was correct. they have now become cult status the reviews are mind blowing even the nit picky guys love them. they trully sound amazeing


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## Lynx_Arc (Jun 4, 2021)

I have a set of sony speakers and they aren't impressive at all.. rather mediocre sounding


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## raggie33 (Jun 4, 2021)

just like everything else they have good ones and bad ones right now im listenig to my music thru a 10 inch amazon show best 100 bucks i spent


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## raggie33 (Jun 19, 2021)

Is Bluetooth 4 as good sounding Asa cd? It's so convenient


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## Lynx_Arc (Jun 19, 2021)

raggie33 said:


> Is Bluetooth 4 as good sounding Asa cd? It's so convenient


It can be, what limits it is the audio equipment and the bluetooth hardware. I have many song on my phone and stream mp3s from it to my headphones and car audio via bluetooth that sounds just like popping the CD in it.


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## raggie33 (Jun 20, 2021)

Cool what a great time to be a music fan.


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## bykfixer (Jul 3, 2021)

At my work, I'm in office dweller mode lately. And the work from home thing has been halted so about half of the staff of 100 or so have returned. Some jobs were cut, others allow folks to stay at home and work. Anyway I noticed nearly everybody keeps company issued (read $3.99 type) corded headphones all day as they stream music through a laptop all day. 

The other day I had an e-meeting and used some of those cheap-o headphones to keep the conversation on the other end private. Ugh! Where are my Shure's when I need them? So today I bought a pair of Bose bluetooth SUNGLASSES!! At a low volume they sound pretty good. Crank 'em up and things fall flat. They won't get loud enough to cause hearing damage and still sound good. But at mid-volume you can dig on a nice rich sound while drowning out buses and taxi's or if used while driving still allows the outside world to be heard. 

Plus they do phone calls. Mrs Fixer and I were talking to each other at opposite ends of the house through our sunglasses. I'm actually looking forward to the next e-meeting. I'll be the bloke wearing wayfarer style sunglasses that double as ear buds.


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## Chauncey Gardiner (Jul 4, 2021)

How cool is that, bykfixer! **** Tracy got nothing on you.


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## Lynx_Arc (Jul 4, 2021)

I stumbled across a decent budget brand of bluetooth earbuds by accident the other day. I have a pair of the earphones that are like the ones that came with original Ipods that you sort of wedge in your ears but don't go into the canal that are corded and while they sounded decent for what they are I looked around and spent close to $50 on a set of wired earbuds (no mic or controls) by creative labs that are very good and when I finally got a smart phone was using them wired but without controls it was a hassle. I stumbled across a bluetooth controller on clearance from Walmart (Blackweb) that works well allowing me to control my music and it has a clip on it and a 1/8 inch stereo jack I plugged my creative labs wired earbuds and I was a lot happier but still the clip on the blackweb was flimsy and the wire from the earbuds I had to watch it popping lose and falling down hanging and getting caught on things and the wires from the earbuds tugging. 

I was walking one night as I do to exercise and I stumbled on a case with a set of wireless earbuds. It was a set of JLabs with the wired bluetooth controller on them and I was impressed as it sounded very good and looked up on their website the cost was $15 and I thought wow that it pretty cheap. The controls work well and having the wires attached to the controller for me is better than the earbuds with no wires as I often go into stores on my walk and shop and when you have to talk to people trying to figure out what to do with a single earbud out of one ear to talk to someone is a pain but with the wires you just pause the music and pull one side out. 
I liked the wired bluetooth ones well enough that I came across a bluetooth wireless set (JLabs Go Air) and tried them too. They work good but the only issue is for some reason they interfered with my wifi at home. I only paid $5 for the set and it only intereferes with the 2.5G band and most of my devices are running on the 5G band. For those on a budget I think they JLabs are an option to consider but since I haven't listened to much other hard to compare. I do like the 3 position equalizer settings though.


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## bykfixer (Jul 4, 2021)

My brother was telling me about a JLabs product that is a bluetooth device you slide over the arms of your glasses or sunglasses and acts like the Bose sunglasses. 

Yesterday I typed in "audiophile headphones" in my favorite search engine and good gosh…… some of the 'wired' ear buds were $3000+. And some wireless as well. I wondered how much better they would sound and what source would one use to take advantage of that better sound. Certainly not my little moto e6 unlocked smart phone I use for an mp3 player. But that did lead me to find some Klipsch wired ear buds from a few years back. 2014 if I recall correctly.


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## Lynx_Arc (Jul 4, 2021)

I do recommend my Blackweb BWA18WI111 Bluetooth adpter/controller. For the price the ability to use wired devices and have controls is wonderful especially if you have a pair of expensive cans or something. 
As for the $3000+ ear buds I think very few people could tell a noticeable difference between them and a good $200 pair that isn't overpriced. 
As I now have 2 pairs of JLabs I'm rather impressed with them they have better bass than my creative ones I think not sure about the overall accuracy but for the price I think you get more than other brands costing twice as much. The only thing I don't like about the separate bluetooth ear buds (no wire between them) is that one ear does one set of things and the other does other things so if you sort of have to memorize both ear and controls while the wired bluetooth set is pretty obvious once you figure it out.

I looked all over the place to find a bluetooth receiver/controller on the cheap as I figured if it cost $30 or more I would be better off just buying bluetooth earbuds instead. There is way too many wireless earbuds on the market as cheap as $5 even now. I think my main issue with them is I don't see a way to get new batteries and replace the ones in them when they wear out so if you spend $3000 for a set of buds and after 2 years they only run for 20 minutes between charges you are stuck with junk if the battery isn't serviceable and... and if it isn't a proprietary size/shape that becomes unavailable entirely. I've had electronics that I liked that when it died 5 years later I couldn't buy parts for it at any price. It is like all the CD and DVD and Blu-ray players that they quit working and it costs as much to get a new laser assembly as a second hand working player and you don't even know for sure if the laser assembly is the problem it could be the circuit board 

I think the most amazing thing is how bluetooth speakers have evolved. The speaker market has all but destroyed the boombox market that and phones streaming radio stations and free music and digital music use a table radio is almost obsolete with the exception of runtime.
Using a smart phone and bluetooth speaker may get you a day or three of music in an outage but an analog table radio can run for weeks.

There are so many bluetooth audio devices these days it is almost impossible to sift through them, you have to rely on others to give you a clue what is good if there isn't a display at a local store to check out. The problem with earbuds is you really can't try before you buy likely due to hygiene issues especially with C19 around.


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## bykfixer (Jul 5, 2021)

Today while setting outside in the shade with a pair of Bose quiet comfort ear buds is a treat. For reference I put on an old favorite, Frampton Comes Alive at a volume about as loud as one would watch tv to try out the noise cancelation. Next door a neighbor was cutting grass. When done he was using a comercial leaf blower that's loud (to me) a football field away. I tapped the left one until cancelation was at max and suddenly "what leaf blower?" "oh the one a quarter mile away"…… When he was done he was chatting with his grandmother so I tapped for 0 cencellation and could hear them talking as if I were not wearing anything in my ears at all. Now it was like listening to a tv with people talking in the next room as in I could not make out what they were saying. Yet if a fire truck was near or a dog was barking at the mailman I'd definitely hear that. 

Ordinarily I'd set here listening to cars, trains and motorcycles in the distance thinking back to my childhood where I'd mimic those sounds in the distance while playing with Hot Wheels cars. It's a chance to forget my name and just enjoy a nice day simply for being a nice day. Meanwhile Peter Frampton and his awesome band cause me to imagine it's 1975 and I'm in San Fransisco at the Winter Ballroom taking in a live show. The sound is pretty good. Like the original recording the lower mids are a bit strong, but the soundstage is just like I remember when listening to it on vinyl in the sweet spot between the Klipsch Hershey's. 

Now it's onto Propellerheads 360 for the sound of the skateboard going back and forth on a half pipe, with lots of super bass. Again, the lower mids and all that "thump" are a bit much but I tune the equalizer to 'treble boost', which cleaned it up a lot. With no equilization at all the sound is clean, clean, clean but I'd prefer just a touch more bass much like a 71 degree day I long for it to be 73. Ah, but the song History repeating is spot on. 

Between the reduced file size of the MP3 and bluetooth 3 point something from the mp3 player I must say life is good right now. Good enough anyway. Audiophile quality? Close enough for my 57 year old ears. I really like being able to hear the world around me while enjoying background level music. No wonder Apple bought Bose. 
If you can't beat 'em, buy 'em……


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## Lynx_Arc (Jul 5, 2021)

I didn't know Apple bought Bose..... but it makes sense to me as both are proud of their prices IMO. I like good treble in my speakers and not overloaded bass and a lot of stuff is heavy on bass and light on treble luckily I stream music from my phone and my MP3 player app has a 20 band equalizer that you can save custom settings to accomodate your hearing. As much as I like my old Koss open air headphones the cushions only lasted about 10 years before turning to dust and never found a good source to continually replace them and I got a pair of bluetooth sony cans that were good a bit heavy on base but made out of mostly plastic and I've dropped them several times breaking them from a drop of 3 feet. I've repaired them but had to be ingenius to do it as you can't order parts to replace broken parts and they did sell parts for $25 for one side or $50 for the set and that is what I paid for them. Why the idiot engineers didn't make some of the parts out of metal escapes me I'll never buy sony cans again..... they may sound good but are made of glass IMO.


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## bykfixer (Jul 5, 2021)

Later, listening to Smashmouth for reference I heard instruments I'd never heard before.


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## bykfixer (Jul 10, 2021)

So today's reference music comes from a little Sansa clip I found while looking through a box of stuff. The Bose ear buds got the nod but for a little while the Bose sunglasses were used while I peeled a decal off my truck. Being they are only IPx2 and it was 80 degrees at 9:00, I did not keep wearing them while doing some yard work. Sweat might kill 'em. 
The music was an oldie from the mid-90's called Joe Dirt Car by the Bodeans. 
What a great live album from back when Kurt Nuemann and Sam Llanas still got along. It was tunes recorded in fairly small venues throughout the mid-west and California from 1989 to 1994 and the double disk cd came out in 95. The shows were done in places with great accoustics so the lively echoes make it sound like 3D through these headphones. Those two blokes sang some great duets in an almost country-fried rock sense. Think Roy Orbison's "Claudette" type of Texas two step numbers with some fabulous ballads mixed in. The audience plays a big part in the enjoyment (if you like that sorta sing along thing) as they drowned out the singers at times. The bass guitar and drums are spot on in the original tapes. The piano and accoustic guiters too. Different people recorded different shows, but they all did it very well. I haven't gotten goose bumps from listening to music in quite a while, yet between the fabulous recording of a once great band and some really sweet ear buds I got goose bumps a few times while plucking weeds in 90 degree weather. 

Next up: Song Remains the Same. Jimmy Paige and John Bonham just kill it on that live disk. I have the 2007 re-release version that added a few tunes that the original 1976 album didn't include. I saw the movie in '76 at the "midnight movie" show in Richmond VA when it came out. 
I remember smelling the aroma of burning grass and hearing bottles hitting the floor at times. I was 12 so I did not know about such things at that point. I also remember wondering why so many long haired dudes were wearing army fatigues and field jackets in July. Later in life I realized one could carry nearly a case of beer in that outfit. lol. 

Note, all music enjoyed today was ripped to 320 from compact disks.


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## raggie33 (Jul 10, 2021)

bykfixer said:


> So today's reference music comes from a little Sansa clip I found while looking through a box of stuff. The Bose ear buds got the nod but for a little while the Bose sunglasses were used while I peeled a decal off my truck. Being they are only IPx2 and it was 80 degrees at 9:00, I did not keep wearing them while doing some yard work. Sweat might kill 'em.
> The music was an oldie from the mid-90's called Joe Dirt Car by the Bodeans.
> What a great live album from back when Kurt Nuemann and Sam Llanas still got along. It was tunes recorded in fairly small venues throughout the mid-west and California from 1989 to 1994 and the double disk cd came out in 95. The shows were done in places with great accoustics so the lively echoes make it sound like 3D through these headphones. Those two blokes sang some great duets in an almost country-fried rock sense. Think Roy Orbison's "Claudette" type of Texas two step numbers with some fabulous ballads mixed in. The audience plays a big part in the enjoyment (if you like that sorta sing along thing) as they drowned out the singers at times. The bass guitar and drums are spot on in the original tapes. The piano and accoustic guiters too. Different people recorded different shows, but they all did it very well. I haven't gotten goose bumps from listening to music in quite a while, yet between the fabulous recording of a once great band and some really sweet ear buds I got goose bumps a few times while plucking weeds in 90 degree weather.
> 
> ...


i hope u installed rockbox firmware on ya clip


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## Lynx_Arc (Jul 10, 2021)

I have a Ipod Video 30G and ran out of room for all my music and was looking at upgrading it as you used to be able to buy a kit that would fit SD cards instead of the hard drive and one guy already made a 1TB version. Now with my phone I can do 2TB with a micro SD card and instead of fiddling with a scroll wheel I have a touch screen and mp3 player with a 10 band equalizer. 
So my Ipods (I have a 60G now too, and a broken 30G for parts) sit gathering dust needing new batteries.


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## raggie33 (Jul 10, 2021)

ive heard systems that cost as much as a new car. there mind blowing. but as said above my sony amp and sony speakers sound so good i sometimes tear up. just to let ya know i hate systems that are over bassy for rap music i like systems that sound as the artist want there music to sound like


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## bykfixer (Jul 11, 2021)

raggie33 said:


> i hope u installed rockbox firmware on ya clip



No, a while back I pulled it out of the package in hopes it would play on my car radio in bluetooth mode. It did not so I put it back in the package to take back to the store but forgot to. Yesterday was the first time I actually used it. It's decent but yeah, I can see where something like rock box would make it more user friendly.


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## LeanBurn (Jul 11, 2021)

In my office/music listening room I have a a very simple system that I have enjoyed for almost 20 years. It has great imaging and renders sound the way I like it. No one's hearing system nor the brain that interprets that sound is exactly the same, so whatever equipment you prefer to listen to should reflect that.


As long as you enjoy what you have...who else should care?


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## bykfixer (Jul 20, 2021)

Audiophile? Not even close, but I'm happy. 






2007 mp3 player now broadcasts to my wireless ear buds. 
I forget who it was that mentioned the Anker broadcaster (in this thread?) but I say "thank ya"
I wondered if I could ever use the Sansa Fuse wireless because it allows my Windows playlists to copy and play verbatum.
Now to figure out how to broadcast it to my Sync 3.


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## LD 5050 (Jul 20, 2021)

I sell and occasionally install/ program high end AV systems, so I hope the answer to the thread is, “I hope not!”
Seriously though, most of my clients are not true audiophiles. But as picky and hard-to-please as they can often be, the ones I do get are always satisfying jobs to complete. For over a decade, I chased the ever-higher end perfect combo in my own setup. My modest budget being largely offset by access to dealer and demo pricing helped and for a time it was really enjoyable. But like with most high end hobbies, the law of diminishing returns kicks in pretty hard at some point. Once I witnessed clients paying the electric company for dedicated mains from the local transformer, it helped me realize that I was never going to take it that far and reigned in my audio addiction. 
If only I worked for a high end flashlight retailer…


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## bykfixer (Jul 21, 2021)

Ok so a few days ago I got the notion to refresh my 2012 gamer since it stores my music and photos. It was running sluggish and I was able to get it perked back up by deleting stuff I didn't use and turning off a bunch of junk at start up. 
Happy with results I figured why not buy some better sounding sattelites as the ones with the subwoofer were just too boomy. 

They arrived today and I was so looking forward to the crisp sound of my new speakers. Plug 'em in and turn on the music player and……what is this crap? These things sound like $5 speakers. Seriously? Reviews said they sound great. Man!! So I was about to box them up but decided to plug them to my mp3 player and holy crap these things sound AWESOME!! 
Whathehell is the deal with the sound from the laptop? 

Between the windows media player equilizer and the "realtek hd" equilizer and it's sound effects synthisizer I have it sounding decent. Better than the old satellites anyway. Some tunes sound great. But like in the old days when my home stereo had a dual 10 band equilizer I'd spend hours trying to tweak 1khz and 125 hz to get rid of the boomy sound but still get the voices right. I'm close now but until today I had no idea how awful my laptop's audio software was.


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## raggie33 (Jul 21, 2021)

sansa has some great sounding players. i like budget audiophile gear. ok now i know the guys who spend big buck on gear wont agree lol .if it floats ya baot thats al that maytters


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## bykfixer (Jul 22, 2021)

Agreed. 
I was very disappointed that they stopped making the Fuze.


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## bykfixer (Aug 13, 2021)

Ok, so at the office where I work there is a huge protest taking place where people are staying home due to a new mask policy. I had the place all to myself. At 9:00 I'm thinking "yes, Fuze mp3 player, Bose wireless ear buds and an 8 hour playlist……yessssssss".

The Fuze broadcasts from a Anker bluetooth device plugged into the headphone jack. But the ear buds refused to pair. Draaaaaaaatzzzz!! I tried like 15 times and nothing. In my drawer was a pair of 99 cents ear buds for meetings. But oh my, those things suuuuuuuuck. No freaking way I could stand much of that. I really think a kazzo for a speaker would sound better than those things.

Instead I listened to the air conditioner "wrrrrrr" until lunch time. The building is concrete and steel and my area is in the center so no signals for my cellular phone are available. At lunch (outside in 95 degree heat) I looked up some stuff on my phone but after lunch none of that worked. I was in a hurry to finish up a bunch of stuff so I cut my lunch break short and took my moto e6 phone indoors to listen to some tunes on the wireless ear buds in case the Anker still wouldn't pair.

After work I looked up the pairing thing and reset the Bose……still nothing. Then I read if you hold the on/off button to the Anker it resets that thing. Well when I paired the Anker with the Bose ear buds after that……let there be music. Hooray.

So bottom line is if your Anker won't pair with your wireless ear buds try holding the on/off button for 10-15 seconds. It flashes blue while you hold it, then flashes red a few times and blue again. The ear buds paired with my lap top, a moto e6, a pair of bluetooth sun glasses and my iPhone easily so I think the issue was the Anker.

Whatever the issue was it sure is nice that it now works. Phew!!

Next day edit:
I got to wondering what ever became of some Shure earbuds I bought back around 010. Try as I may I just don't know what ever became of them. I just used them a few months ago. Anyway that led me to wonder if they still make wired ear buds. And that they do. They have a neat trick these days where one can unplug the cord and plug in a bluetooth broadcaster. Or one can buy a cord and turn a wireless set into a corded model for listening to movies on airplanes and such.

They are called Inner Ear Monitors (IEM by most) due to how flat the fidelity curve is. Reference devices. I opted for the consumer model, which are just upgraded 215's. They come in 3 colors and clear. Not sure which color to choose my mind was made up while watching a David Bowie concert on tv. His bass player was wearing IEM's the same color blue as the 215's blue……and so it was. I also bought a cord set to be able to listen to music on non bluetooth devices.






The photo is an overlay of the ear buds and the cord kit done by an iApp called SnapSeed.
End edit


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## orbital (Feb 3, 2022)

+

Wanted to try a pair of semi open backed headphones,,
so got a pair of Samson SR850

A difference in sound that's hard to describe ~~~ allowing the music to _'breath'_ is just enlightening.

Listened to *Radiohead Weird Fishes* with my eyes closed = it was _hauntingly_ good♨️





$44 delivered


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## bykfixer (Feb 4, 2022)

Radiohead must be audiophiles, because their recordings sound really good with headphones on.


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## desert.snake (Feb 4, 2022)

orbital said:


> +
> 
> Wanted to try a pair of semi open backed headphones,,
> so got a pair of Samson SR850
> ...



It looks like they are AKG K240DF clones. Do they work just as well?


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## rdnzl (Feb 4, 2022)

I sold all of my "audiophile" gear 15 years ago. I do regret it.

But these days I listen to music through my mid to high end Denon HT receiver and my 7 speaker Martin Logan surround system. Sounds pretty good to me. MP3's are not allowed in my home.


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## raggie33 (Feb 5, 2022)

I still say audiophiles sometimes pay more for a name like bose or beats when tgere is cheaper lesser known brands that sound just as good


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## rdnzl (Feb 5, 2022)

raggie33 said:


> I still say audiophiles sometimes pay more for a name like bose or beats when tgere is cheaper lesser known brands that sound just as good


Audiophiles laugh at Bose or Beats.


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## Lynx_Arc (Feb 5, 2022)

raggie33 said:


> I still say audiophiles sometimes pay more for a name like bose or beats when tgere is cheaper lesser known brands that sound just as good


I think the problem is a lot of us don't have super sensitive "perfect" hearing and cannot tell the difference and likewise many of us have different tastes in how we want music to sound with some liking it flat, some bright, others bassy etc and different audio components can cater to different tastes along with some devices offering equalization features in them that can raise/lower certain frequency ranges. I know over the decades my hearing has changed and I think I have a little tinnitus along with liking a little more bass but nowhere near what beats seem to default on.


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## rdnzl (Feb 5, 2022)

My hearing has changed, for sure. But when you listen to GOOD audio and compare it to the MP3's and streaming services, especially in a GOOD set of head pnones, it's like night and day. It's not always about frequencies. The soundstage and the presence of each instrument can be amazing on a quality recording,


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## raggie33 (Feb 5, 2022)

rdnzl said:


> My hearing has changed, for sure. But when you listen to GOOD audio and compare it to the MP3's and streaming services, especially in a GOOD set of head pnones, it's like night and day. It's not always about frequencies. The soundstage and the presence of each instrument can be amazing on a quality recording,


Check out hd audio or sptatial audio sounds great but huge file size.im lucky my digital players has 1000 gigs


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## bykfixer (Feb 6, 2022)

Thinking about the past this morning it occured to me that audiophiles have been a rare thing as far back as I can remember. Example would be 90 of 100 would buy their audio equipment at a Roses department store. Around 8 at some stereo store that sold way nicer gear than Roses and the remaining 1 or 2 would travel to a stereo salon that sold hi end products. 

Today wal mart and best buy cut out the stereo store guy and the salon aspect means travelling farther unless you live in a big metropolis where millionaires live nearby. When I was a teen a guy who owned a salon had expanded to 3 stores, one of which was 20 minutes from me. Back then it was an hour because some highways we have now hadn't been built. 









The death of hi-fi?


A new article suggests that digital music is to blame for the decline of good-quality sound.




www.salon.com




Here's a 2007 op/ed from Salon.


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## desert.snake (Feb 6, 2022)

bykfixer said:


> Thinking about the past this morning it occured to me that audiophiles have been a rare thing as far back as I can remember. Example would be 90 of 100 would buy their audio equipment at a Roses department store. Around 8 at some stereo store that sold way nicer gear than Roses and the remaining 1 or 2 would travel to a stereo salon that sold hi end products.
> 
> Today wal mart and best buy cut out the stereo store guy and the salon aspect means travelling farther unless you live in a big metropolis where millionaires live nearby. When I was a teen a guy who owned a salon had expanded to 3 stores, one of which was 20 minutes from me. Back then it was an hour because some highways we have now hadn't been built.
> 
> ...


My local audiophiles have never had such problems, everything is bought on forums or on the Internet)) There were only 2 shops in the city with "good" audio equipment, which in fact were not so good and very overpriced.


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## bykfixer (Feb 6, 2022)

I know what you mean DS.
The local salon I used to buy from had some awful sounding speakers that were priced as much as my house at the time.
I never asked "how much for that turntable" but "how much a month for the stylus" for that record player. Or "can I buy the demo?" meaning a huge discount versus new. I was 19 years old making minimum wage with a zest for a great sounding stereo.

Back then I'd listen to an album once to make sure it did not skip or pop, then record it to a cassette tape. I used DBX noise reduction (if at all) because to me it actually reduced the hiss with very little change in the upper tones or spacial aspect where Dolby (at the time) just made everything dull and flat to remove the hiss.

My brother used reel to reel but that didn't work out so sporty in your 77 Nova.

My brother always had gigantic speakers made of nice wood and sounded awesome. He liked BASS and lots of it. When I brought home my first end table sized Klipsch speakers (the KG square) he said "awe man that just aint fair" lol. Klipsch had smashed the bass issue by putting passive radiators on the rear of the cabinet. Oh they did not do justice to a stand up bass fiddle like my brothers refrigerator sized furniture but they sure did a heck of a job at providing a nice bass punch while the tweeter put out a nice wide sound stage in the sweet spot between them. 

My first sattelite speaker set was a Klipsch. Disappointing to say the least but sounded way better than the high $ Bose and all the crap Best Buy sold at the time. I use small sattelites by Bose plugged into the headphone jack of a laptop these days. Compromise with a capital C but I no longer long to sit in the sweet spot in a rocking chair buzzing from left handed cigarettes but instead move about enjoying background music that sounds better than the overhead speakers at my cardiologists office.


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## desert.snake (Feb 6, 2022)

I just don't have a place to put speakers, and the walls in the apartment building are too thin, it will disturb the neighbors (and I don't want them to know about my addictions anymore), so I always had headphones and everything with connected with them. With headphones, you can get very cheap, very good sound. I found audio cassettes when I was little, my grandfather also had a vinyl player, but there were no records for him, except for a few 60s, and there was no where to buy them either. In general, I did not even know about the existence of audiophiles and something more expensive than $ 30. I bought Sennheiser 415 headphones and used them for a computer, after a while my ears started to hurt, in the sense of the eardrums themselves, although I did not listen loudly. I decided to look for something better and bought Grado 80 headphones with my first salary. It was 2010 and the worst heat wave in my memory. The sound was much better, my ears stopped hurting, but I began to be bothered by excessive sound saturation and the cartilage of the ears began to hurt due to the fact that the headphones leaned on them. I found a forum for headphone lovers, learned about sound cards, DACs, ADCs, amplifiers, different types of emitters, and it all went like a snowball))) Now I stopped at this, as I picked up a system that suits me. Something much better will be much more expensive (for example Stax, Abyss, Focal, etc)


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